# Forum > Comics > Webcomics >  Grrl Power VII: Let Me Explain For The Next Thirty Comics!

## Traab

Figured we should start the new thread and this idea seemed to trigger a few likes. It seems apt considering we are getting EVEN MORE EXPLAINING coming up!

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## lord_khaine

it is kinda fitting. We have had a -lot- of explaining done. And are about to get more xD

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## Shining Wrath

Seriously, Deus? A faux-lightning strike for dramatic effect?

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## Radar

> Seriously, Deus? A faux-lightning strike for dramatic effect?


He did order that specific device quite a while ago, so why *wouldn't* he use it given an opportunity?

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## Traab

> Seriously, Deus? A faux-lightning strike for dramatic effect?


Oh please, we already knew deus is such a ham jewish people go to hell for shaking his hand. Honestly, this explains a lot. Its similar to the flash and how he lives in a world of statues. If he really is some sort of mega ultra ascended genius who is smart enough to do stuff like this while also smart enough to hide it, he must be absurdly BORED a lot of the time and have to come up with his own entertainment. Hence trolling people, his bring the thunder special effects, etc. He lives for these moments when people finally get what he is going after. Its probably a tough choice between this and confetti effects alongside "You finally got it!" banners. But he felt that was less cool so stuck with thunder.

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## lord_khaine

Yeah as weird as it sounds. This actually makes Deus more.. realistic? for lack of a better word.
All he has done. All he has accomplished. Its suddenly a lot more believeable now its revealed he is a metahuman.

And yes, it does also explain all the wacky hijinx. Quite possibly Deus is one of the most bored people on the planet.
Hence setting impossible goals for himself. Like building a global superpower from scratch. Or scoring Max.

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## Traab

> Yeah as weird as it sounds. This actually makes Deus more.. realistic? for lack of a better word.
> All he has done. All he has accomplished. Its suddenly a lot more believeable now its revealed he is a metahuman.
> 
> And yes, it does also explain all the wacky hijinx. Quite possibly Deus is one of the most bored people on the planet.
> Hence setting impossible goals for himself. Like building a global superpower from scratch. Or scoring Max.


I think its less that its realistic and more that it provides a recognizable motivation for him. Up till now we honestly havent heard much about why he is doing this stuff aside from his likely trollish red herrings. So he came off as oddly lol random while also seeming to be serious.

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## halfeye

> Quite possibly Deus is one of the most bored people on the planet.


I was bored once, lasted two whole weeks, then I got bored of being bored and it went away. It hasn't come back in 50 years.

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## Kantaki

I just absolutely adore Deus face here.
It's so wonderfully silly. :Small Big Grin: 

Also, probably the only reason he looked away from Maxima is that he knew he'd loose his poker face. :Small Amused:

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## Traab

> I just absolutely adore Deus face here.
> It's so wonderfully silly.
> 
> Also, probably the only reason he looked away from Maxima is that he knew he'd loose his poker face.


You could just tell he has been WAITING for this moment. Like, he has been sitting on this reveal for who knows how long, just setting up the perfect opportunity, refusing to take the instant gratification of just saying it, and holding back with obvious deflections and such until he could do it right.

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## lord_khaine

> I think its less that its realistic and more that it provides a recognizable motivation for him. Up till now we honestly havent heard much about why he is doing this stuff aside from his likely trollish red herrings. So he came off as oddly lol random while also seeming to be serious.


Well. Being rich could make you bored. Certainly a lot of rich people are excentric.
But this explains better why he is able to pull off all of this. 

Its much less author fiat that lets him accomplish what he does. 
And more that he is several steps ahead of everyone else.
certainly explains his wealth.

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## Shining Wrath

I have to agree, a Super whose power was intelligence would be running rings around the rest of us, seeing connections we couldn't see, inventing things we couldn't imagine, and probably making as much money as they cared to make.

And possibly trying to take over the world because intelligence = wisdom, from their perspective, just not any D&D player's.

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## Dragonus45

We are wandering back into a monologue I rather like here, talking about how intelligence is a really fuzzy concept and is more then just pure good at maths stuff.

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## Radar

> We are wandering back into a monologue I rather like here, talking about how intelligence is a really fuzzy concept and is more then just pure good at maths stuff.


And that point about superpowers always coming with a standard safety package is also important. Almost everyone understands that point, when it comes to physical powers, but there is no reason it should not apply to any other superpower. So it is indeed logical that super intelligence would be a well rounded set of mental enhancements so that you do not go insane or something.

A real world example of getting something that looks like a superpower, is a medical condition of absolutely perfect memory - nothing is ever forgotten. Seems great? Think again...

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## TeChameleon

> And that point about superpowers always coming with a standard safety package is also important. Almost everyone understands that point, when it comes to physical powers, but there is no reason it should not apply to any other superpower. So it is indeed logical that super intelligence would be a well rounded set of mental enhancements so that you do not go insane or something.
> 
> A real world example of getting something that looks like a superpower, is a medical condition of absolutely perfect memory - nothing is ever forgotten. Seems great? Think again...


That last bit reminds me a little of the island near(-ish) Narnia 'where dreams come true'.  Sounds great, until you stop and realize that it's _dreams_, not daydreams.  Ever have a really bad nightmare?

There is a certain logic to superpowers coming with built-in safeguards; I'm not sure I buy that super-intelligence comes with inherent benevolence, though.  Super-intelligence coming with a safeguard that makes it so you don't end up dribbling in a straightjacket muttering 'it's full of stars!' or whatever, sure.  A safeguard that keeps you from turning half the world into a mirror of hell so that the area you live is tailored to your exact desires and merest whim?  Seems less likely.

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## Dragonus45

> That last bit reminds me a little of the island near(-ish) Narnia 'where dreams come true'.  Sounds great, until you stop and realize that it's _dreams_, not daydreams.  Ever have a really bad nightmare?
> 
> There is a certain logic to superpowers coming with built-in safeguards; I'm not sure I buy that super-intelligence comes with inherent benevolence, though.  Super-intelligence coming with a safeguard that makes it so you don't end up dribbling in a straightjacket muttering 'it's full of stars!' or whatever, sure.  A safeguard that keeps you from turning half the world into a mirror of hell so that the area you live is tailored to your exact desires and merest whim?  Seems less likely.


I don't buy it either, but it seems like the kind of argument an amoral super intelligence might make to justify it's bull****.

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## Mechalich

> There is a certain logic to superpowers coming with built-in safeguards; I'm not sure I buy that super-intelligence comes with inherent benevolence, though.  Super-intelligence coming with a safeguard that makes it so you don't end up dribbling in a straightjacket muttering 'it's full of stars!' or whatever, sure.  A safeguard that keeps you from turning half the world into a mirror of hell so that the area you live is tailored to your exact desires and merest whim?  Seems less likely.


Pretty sure Deus is claiming that he is benevolent, not that benevolence is attached to super-intelligence. His broader point seems to be that the safeguards attached to super-intelligence seem to protect against most of the common forms of extreme behavior commonly displayed by similarly empowered characters in other comics, with the Lex Luthor example being particularly pertinent (since Deus basically is Lex, with better hair, and Maxima is basically Superman, also with better hair). Lex regularly displays a particular fanaticism with regards to Superman in that he is beset by a desire to defeat Superman that is both futile and unnecessary. Lex can get almost everything he wants without confronting Superman, but rarely if ever goes that route.

There's also an interesting bit here in that Deus' rather extreme pursuit of sexual conquests could be drawn out of this protective mechanism. Because his universe's version of Superman is an extremely attractive woman, he can 'conquer' her in bed rather than via some physical confrontation or even by conquering the world. Yes this is patronizing as it gets, but it is less likely to have a lethal outcome.

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## lord_khaine

> A safeguard that keeps you from turning half the world into a mirror of hell so that the area you live is tailored to your exact desires and merest whim? Seems less likely.


I think that between the lines, the argument against that is that a true super intelligence, not just a mathemathic genius like Lex Luther, would come with to much emotional intelligence and empathy to ignore that. 
You know the old saying about a murder being a tragedy. A million deaths being statistics. Well its a problem for an intelligence big enough to comprehend that statistic as a million seperate murders. 
The actions of Deus has always been debated. But there is room for the posibillity that his motives are indeed benevolent. And that he is working on improving living conditions in the most crappy part of the world.




> There's also an interesting bit here in that Deus' rather extreme pursuit of sexual conquests could be drawn out of this protective mechanism. Because his universe's version of Superman is an extremely attractive woman, he can 'conquer' her in bed rather than via some physical confrontation or even by conquering the world. Yes this is patronizing as it gets, but it is less likely to have a lethal outcome.


I honestly just think this is because he is bored. And because he can.

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## halfeye

> I honestly just think this is because he is bored. And because he can.


Boredom is not having anything to think about. It happens more to unintelligent people than clever ones.

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## Radar

> Boredom is not having anything to think about. It happens more to unintelligent people than clever ones.


Or in other words, intelligent people will always find something interesting to do. This conquest book Deus keeps is probably just one of many things he does as a hobby/challenge to keep himself amused between working on the big projects. His penchant for dramatic ambience is also probably just to amuse himself. I kind of wonder if he has the same problem interacting with other people as the Holmes brothers (I cannot find the bit right after that with Mycroft commenting about living in a world of goldfish).

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## lord_khaine

> Boredom is not having anything to think about. It happens more to unintelligent people than clever ones.


I doubt the validity of your sources on this.

And generally i think the consent is it takes more to stimulate a bright mind.
Thats also often seen in schools. Its often the smart kids who are bored because they dont find a challenge in the lessons.

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## Traab

> Pretty sure Deus is claiming that he is benevolent, not that benevolence is attached to super-intelligence. His broader point seems to be that the safeguards attached to super-intelligence seem to protect against most of the common forms of extreme behavior commonly displayed by similarly empowered characters in other comics, with the Lex Luthor example being particularly pertinent (since Deus basically is Lex, with better hair, and Maxima is basically Superman, also with better hair). Lex regularly displays a particular fanaticism with regards to Superman in that he is beset by a desire to defeat Superman that is both futile and unnecessary. Lex can get almost everything he wants without confronting Superman, but rarely if ever goes that route.
> 
> There's also an interesting bit here in that Deus' rather extreme pursuit of sexual conquests could be drawn out of this protective mechanism. Because his universe's version of Superman is an extremely attractive woman, he can 'conquer' her in bed rather than via some physical confrontation or even by conquering the world. Yes this is patronizing as it gets, but it is less likely to have a lethal outcome.


Yeah, a lot of the lex stuff never made sense. Its like, the dude is (often) a super genius, and instead of picking fights from HIS position of strength, he keeps getting into punching matches with superman, and punching matches are where superman does a really good job at winning. You dont try to out think batman, you dont try to outpunch superman. Reverse the two and you might end up with better results. One of lex's most common complaints is that superman invalidates human accomplishment because he is this big ultimate untouchable alien floating above them, but instead of making his own human legacy where he is pasteur, salk, and rockefeller combined with stephen hawking, he would rather wield a glowing green battle axe and get knocked out by a living god who has to figure out the narrow window between "Able to defeat robot suit" and "Liquify squishy human" as the only reason the fight lasts longer than three seconds. 

As for deus and maxima, I think its fairly clear that he has no negative feelings towards her at all. I DO think he is low key trying to seduce her, but I think he also just enjoys messing with her more. He is mr mxyzsptlyk without the omnipotent abilities. He probably considers the seduction attempt a fun long term challenge rather than a way to "conquer" her.

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## halfeye

> As for deus and maxima, ... He probably considers the seduction attempt a fun long term challenge rather than a way to "conquer" her.


He seduces females a lot, he made Harem lose control, he admitted to Scoina while (eventually successfully) chatting her up that he'd been with a draguar (spelt?). It may be long term and fun, but he's not disinterested.

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## lord_khaine

Harem is likely the one case that might have had a secondary purpose.
Seeing as she is spying on her. 
And so i cant see banging her as making it harder to distract or divert her.

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## Mechalich

> He seduces females a lot, he made Harem lose control, he admitted to Scoina while (eventually successfully) chatting her up that he'd been with a draguar (spelt?). It may be long term and fun, but he's not disinterested.


He has a whole little black book full of all the different types of women he's successfully gone to bed with. Arguably he's collecting them kind of like Pokemon. It's at least somewhat understandable, he presumably finished going through however many of Earth's most beautiful women sometime before the comic began. Maxima is a unique being (super+alien goo) in addition to her beauty, which no doubt pique's Deus' interest. He's also been unable to close the deal so far, which appears to be rare for him, and Maxima's power and values are such that she's not vulnerable to his usual blandishments. 

On the other side of it, Deus is presumably very aware that Maxima is on a very short list of people of 'actually capable of killing me outright' and he wants to avoid or at least put off that confrontation for as long as possible. So there's clearly mixed motives.

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## lord_khaine

I would argue that the main issue is Max's fanatic work ethic and slightly cynic personality. 
Less so her powers as Deus has banged more than one Super.

Also uncertain regarding the bit about being able to kill Deus outright.
As far as we know any nut with a gun can do that. Its why Deus is carefull to keep the conflict in the area where he has superiosity.
The realm of words and oppinions. Instead of getting a blue battlesuit to duke it out with Max xD

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## Traab

> He seduces females a lot, he made Harem lose control, he admitted to Scoina while (eventually successfully) chatting her up that he'd been with a draguar (spelt?). It may be long term and fun, but he's not disinterested.


Exactly. Like I said, its not some obsession with him like lex killing superman, its just a fun challenge he is giving his best go at to see if he can. Someone super intelligent with the wisdom score to go along with it likely has a really good shot at chatting up most women because he knows what they want and how to give it to them. He can tell who is interested, who could be interested with the right setup, and who flat out isnt interested and wont be. I bet he pegs maxima as on the far side of could be interested with the right setup and is thus an interesting challenge.

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## Shining Wrath

I think Deus is arguing in circles. Since he's super-intelligent, and thinks of himself as benevolent, ergo, super-intelligence implies benevolence, at least in his case, or so he believes. The problem is that a lot of bad people think of themselves as good people, including some quite clever ones. _Arsenic and Old Lace_, anyone?

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## sihnfahl

> He seduces females a lot, he made Harem lose control, he admitted to Scoina while (eventually successfully) chatting her up that he'd been with a draguar (spelt?). It may be long term and fun, but he's not disinterested.


Draugr.  He was probably referencing Skyrim.




> Seeing as she is spying on her.


I'm leaning more towards gossipy than spying.  She's not really giving up any real info, IIRC.




> As far as we know any nut with a gun can do that. Its why Deus is carefull to keep the conflict in the area where he has superiosity.


Or a super watching over him to keep him from being hurt.  Cause, you know, he DOES go out now and then.




> I think Deus is arguing in circles. Since he's super-intelligent, and thinks of himself as benevolent, ergo, super-intelligence implies benevolence, at least in his case, or so he believes. The problem is that a lot of bad people think of themselves as good people, including some quite clever ones. _Arsenic and Old Lace_, anyone?


I don't think he sees himself as particularly benevolent, just a better option than most.  I mean, he still uses bribery, blackmail, murder, etc, to get his aims finished.  But I'm guessing it's the lesser evil, in his eyes, than letting the folks he targets run amok.

It's also a possible reason why he's raising Galtyn.  Smart workers mean he can get tech workers.  Which means companies he controls, in a country he effectively controls, in sole possession of making the technology he wants to market, with a lower risk of any corporate espionage.

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## lord_khaine

Hmm.. no Deus newer makes the argument that Super Intelligence should or would indicate benevolence.
He argues that a super intelligent being would be a terrifying thing. Unless said being were benevolent.

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## Mechalich

> Or a super watching over him to keep him from being hurt.  Cause, you know, he DOES go out now and then.


Deus keeps Vale as a full time bodyguard. She's extremely powerful - able to match the upgraded Sciona - and possibly doesn't need sleep, being some sort of eldritch horror. While we haven't seen her in the recent strips, I suspect Deus believes (probably rightly) that she cramps his vibe and his military base is suitably secure, I imagine she's not far away. He certainly felt comfortable walking around the Fracture with only her for protection. Maxima is on a genuinely short list of people who could take Vale in a fight, and an even shorter list of those fast enough that Deus couldn't get away.

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## lord_khaine

> I'm leaning more towards gossipy than spying. She's not really giving up any real info, IIRC.


Well thats kinda the idea behind a tripple agent. 
Telling Deus what Archon wants him to hear. While learning of his motives by seeing what he asks.
Of course he has guessed this. And i assume are banging Harem for the fun of it (cant blame him).




> Or a super watching over him to keep him from being hurt. Cause, you know, he DOES go out now and then.


The context there was the potential conflict between Deus and Maxima.
Where unlike another genius billionaire Deus is to smart to put on a purple battlesuit and go for a slugging match. 
Instead he is verbally attacking Max's ideology (or trying to).




> I don't think he sees himself as particularly benevolent, just a better option than most. I mean, he still uses bribery, blackmail, murder, etc, to get his aims finished. But I'm guessing it's the lesser evil, in his eyes, than letting the folks he targets run amok.


I think he does. And to be fair. There is a solid argument for it. 
He has taken one of the worst and most corrupt hell holes in afrika. And made it into a thriving place where kids go to school.
While his mid term plans seemingly involves building infrastructure. Yes he has done the odd spot of murder. So has Max. 
But i cant recall cases of blackmail.




> It's also a possible reason why he's raising Galtyn. Smart workers mean he can get tech workers. Which means companies he controls, in a country he effectively controls, in sole possession of making the technology he wants to market, with a lower risk of any corporate espionage.


Hmm.. he really dont need to. For a start he really dont need to do anything. He is wealthy enough he could retire to his private island banging foto models for the rest of his life.
And its a titanic project building a country up. He could easily have done the same in some south/east tax haven. Where he would not need to raise his workers himself.
Also looking at things Galtyn is at least 8-9 years in the past. It was started long, long before Deus had access to alien tech.

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## Kantaki

New comic

Yeah, I'm with the Alari. Bet to win.
Unless we're talking some token wager.
And even then I'd probably place it on whoever I think will win. :Small Tongue:

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## Shining Wrath

Note to self: never make Dabbler angry. _cringes_

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## lord_khaine

I do think its mostly in her mouth.
Well. By the look of it most things eventually end there xD

Though interesting development.
Mostly on that Deus is able to hold another mostly relaxed conversation with Max.
I do think he is using the Water on Rock method of seduction here.

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## Rydiro

God, Dabbler is so obnoxious.
If I was Tom, I'd rip out all Mana out of Dabbler right there.
Yelling about instead of having a normal conversation is one thing.
But pulling out a weapon and threatening him just because her sister happens to work for him ... What the ...?

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## Keltest

> God, Dabbler is so obnoxious.
> If I was Tom, I'd rip out all Mana out of Dabbler right there.
> Yelling about instead of having a normal conversation is one thing.
> But pulling out a weapon and threatening him just because her sister happens to work for him ... What the ...?


"hurt my family and i will inflict retribution on you" is a pretty standard trope.

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## lord_khaine

It is a rather dumb trope.
I would say Tom is so far the mature one. 
But at the same time pulling Dabblers sister out is kinda immature.
At the moment the scale says they deserve each other.

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## Rydiro

> But at the same time pulling Dabblers sister out is kinda immature.


It seems the sister climbed through Toms portal on her own. Also, Tom didn't know Dabbler was there. He is probably on a business visit to Deus.

I don't see a hint that Tom pulls her out to annoy Dabbler.

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## lord_khaine

His comment about "perhaps another might be better behaver" certainly seems to be designed to get beneath Dabblers skin.
And well. While in theory there isnt anything against sleeper with the younger sister of your ex.
Then at the same time its kinda fair if she has an oppinion on the matter, that she want to share loudly.

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## Shining Wrath

I think Dabbler has enough history with Tom to think that perhaps he might mistreat her sister - for example, using her only as a tool to get at Dabbler. Emotional cruelty can be pretty painful, especially if you're a slave-with-some-rules-but-still-a-slave. She certainly knows him better than we do.

So, if you think it's possible Tom might be mean to your little sister, and you're as dangerous as Dabbler is (which is to say, pretty dangerous), threats of retribution come with the territory.
My read is that Tom is not a completely bad guy (that would be too easy) but is also not very trustworthy - he did show up announcing his intention to conquer Earth and impose order on us all.

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## Radar

> ... he did show up announcing his intention to conquer Earth and impose order on us all.


To be the demon's advocate, he did have a detailed presentation prepared on why it would be very beneficial for people on Earth.  :Small Wink:

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## Shining Wrath

> To be the demon's advocate, he did have a detailed presentation prepared on why it would be very beneficial for people on Earth.


Prepared by a minion, who was quite disappointed it didn't get shown. So he's actually like Deus - he thinks him ruling the world would be a good thing.

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## lord_khaine

> I think Dabbler has enough history with Tom to think that perhaps he might mistreat her sister - for example, using her only as a tool to get at Dabbler. Emotional cruelty can be pretty painful, especially if you're a slave-with-some-rules-but-still-a-slave. She certainly knows him better than we do.


Counter point. If Tom was the type to mistreat his succubi how the heck did he pass the intense scrutiny of the Council of Matrons not once but twice?
Let alone, if it was the case why would Dabbler still be with him instead of with an inexperienced master from earth she could twirl around her finger?




> Prepared by a minion, who was quite disappointed it didn't get shown. So he's actually like Deus - he thinks him ruling the world would be a good thing.


Well of course? part of being a good leader is the ability to delegate. 
Employe's need tasks to feel useful. And i doubt there is a single General on earth who does his own presentations.
So i cant see how this is a point against Tom.

For that matter. Its honestly not a hard presentation to make. Objectively speaking we are doing an antrocious job of ruling ourself.

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## Rydiro

> I think Dabbler has enough history with Tom to think that perhaps he might mistreat her sister - for example, using her only as a tool to get at Dabbler. Emotional cruelty can be pretty painful, especially if you're a slave-with-some-rules-but-still-a-slave. She certainly knows him better than we do.
> 
> So, if you think it's possible Tom might be mean to your little sister, and you're as dangerous as Dabbler is (which is to say, pretty dangerous), threats of retribution come with the territory.
> My read is that Tom is not a completely bad guy (that would be too easy) but is also not very trustworthy - he did show up announcing his intention to conquer Earth and impose order on us all.


It doesn't seem to add up. Dabbler still keeps Tom as her Master. And she is pretty okay with the arrangement so far, in her own words. Even if they are somewhat estranged. Since the Master-Slave contracts seem to be consented upon by both sides, there is no reason to assume Tom is doing anything wrong. Heck, look at Dabbler. She basically has NO obligations to Tom whatsoever.

But hey, attacking a guy with a magic weapon is funny, lolz.
Dabbler is just agressive, possessive and toxic, jumping to threats and violence without any background information.

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## Mechalich

> Dabbler is just agressive, possessive and toxic, jumping to threats and violence without any background information.


Plausibly the baseline for arguments between demons is different than that for humans. It's entirely possible to imagine a species where low-level violence is considered a perfectly reasonable portion of reasonable debate. 

However, if that's the case the ability of said species to live harmoniously in the company of humans without some rather stringent cultural management protocols is highly dubious. There's a universe where Dabbler works as a character, insofar as Grrlpower still obeys any internal rules at all, it's not this one.

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## Rydiro

> However, if that's the case the ability of said species to live harmoniously in the company of humans without some rather stringent cultural management protocols is highly dubious. There's a universe where Dabbler works as a character, insofar as Grrlpower still obeys any internal rules at all, it's not this one.


She is far too often used as the joke character, like 90% of the time.
Usually sexy jokes, but now possessive violence jokes.
I actually liked her in the beginning as a smart contrast to maximas sometimes prudish feminism.
Now the smart has been replaced by lolz.

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## Nettlekid

Man, this is pretty bad. Has the thread been completely lost on what this comic wanted to be? I'm sick of aliens, and worse yet everything being explained by being aliens.

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## Traab

It just seemed like the usual over reaction you see in media for dads and their daughters, or older siblings for their younger ones when dating comes into play. After all, over the top is common. For example. Bad Boys 2. This is NOT sfw. But its a great example of the sort of reaction that wouldnt be considered that far from the comic.

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## Kantaki

Is it just me, or is Parfait's look kinda off?
Half the panels she's onscreen there's something just a little bit wrong (or not so little) and the other half she just presses the "kill it with all the fire" button.

I think her eyes are definitely part of it, but I'm not sure what else...
Would be less weird if she wasn't the only character in the comic with that effect, but even _Tom_ looks more normal to me and his face looks like bits glued to the front of his head.

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## Radar

> Is it just me, or is Parfait's look kinda off?
> Half the panels she's onscreen there's something just a little bit wrong (or not so little) and the other half she just presses the "kill it with all the fire" button.
> 
> I think her eyes are definitely part of it, but I'm not sure what else...
> Would be less weird if she wasn't the only character in the comic with that effect, but even _Tom_ looks more normal to me and his face looks like bits glued to the front of his head.


She is pretty much exactly in the uncanny valley and I think it is mostly about the eyes - a bit similar to Alita (that CGI movie) frankly: almost human face with unnatural eyes. On the other hand Tom is different enough that he does not trigger any instinct in us.

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## KillianHawkeye

> Is it just me, or is Parfait's look kinda off?
> Half the panels she's onscreen there's something just a little bit wrong (or not so little) and the other half she just presses the "kill it with all the fire" button.
> 
> I think her eyes are definitely part of it, but I'm not sure what else...
> Would be less weird if she wasn't the only character in the comic with that effect, but even _Tom_ looks more normal to me and his face looks like bits glued to the front of his head.


Frankly, I've been thinking this about a LOT of the characters since the latest art style was adopted...

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## TeChameleon

Yeah, I noted that about Max at one point in a previous thread.  Something's different about the eyes, and every so often it swan dives into the uncanny valley something _fierce_.

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## sihnfahl

Heh.

Supers For Hire.

And love the destination stickers.

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## DataNinja

Note for today's comic... anyone who's squeamish like me should _not_ read today's author notes. There are some, uh, very graphic descriptions of torture methods in there, and... yeah. Ugh.

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## lord_khaine

The Blood Eagle is exceptionally nasty yeah. So is crucifiction.
I actually think Deus makes a moderately decent point about the danger of random supers popping up.
Or at least about humans likely being the space orks if given a chance.

Of course in relation to humanity unleashed on the galaxy as a whole. 
Then it kinda overlooks that while powerful. Supers are not worth much in space.

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## The Glyphstone

That assumes they don't get access to spaceships, though. Considering they already have 1 intact ship and 1 broken one to study, let alone any ships that people just end up selling or trading them once Earth joins the space-community, I don't think the fact that most supers can't function in hard vacuum will be a big obstacle.

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## Keltest

> That assumes they don't get access to spaceships, though. Considering they already have 1 intact ship and 1 broken one to study, let alone any ships that people just end up selling or trading them once Earth joins the space-community, I don't think the fact that most supers can't function in hard vacuum will be a big obstacle.


Indeed. Its also not like thats a particularly uncommon weakness either. I think you would struggle to find a species that can function in empty space to any meaningful degree, so supers will still absolutely have a place.

----------


## lord_khaine

> That assumes they don't get access to spaceships, though. Considering they already have 1 intact ship and 1 broken one to study, let alone any ships that people just end up selling or trading them once Earth joins the space-community, I don't think the fact that most supers can't function in hard vacuum will be a big obstacle.


No it does not not :p
It points out it dont really matters how powerful a super is if it dont work in hard vacum. 
As the solution then always becomes "shoot the space transport"

Its honestly the 40k issue again. There is a lot of fanwank over how badass Space Marines are.
But that kinda overlooks that the important part is the Imperial Navy. Air superiority wins conflicts.

And not even Maxima can survive a surprise hit from a space ship.
(estimate based on official data regarding her power level)

----------


## Shining Wrath

This reminds me of Oscar Wilde: "In heaven, an angel is no one in particular". In Deus' projected future, a super is no one special. And if 1% of the population of supers are bad actors, they can make life miserable for the rest of humanity.

----------


## The Glyphstone

> No it does not not :p
> It points out it dont really matters how powerful a super is if it dont work in hard vacum. 
> As the solution then always becomes "shoot the space transport"
> 
> Its honestly the 40k issue again. There is a lot of fanwank over how badass Space Marines are.
> But that kinda overlooks that the important part is the Imperial Navy. Air superiority wins conflicts.
> 
> And not even Maxima can survive a surprise hit from a space ship.
> (estimate based on official data regarding her power level)


Space ships can also kill planets, and yet there is plenty of fiction that doesn't exclusively feature O'neill cylinders moving at relativistic velocities to escape dueling Von Neumann swarms. Leaving aside the obvious problems that arise if you don't engage with genre conceits, theater superiority is only useful to the point where you can use it without destroying the thing you are fighting over. 

If that thing is a planet or anything smaller than a planet, your spaceship can't take and hold ground objectives but infantry can. And in any situation where a ground objective exists, super powered infantry will be better than non-superpowered infantry.

----------


## lord_khaine

There is a pretty wide range between "able to kill a planet" and has what is about an upgraded nuke  :Small Tongue: 

There is also a pretty wide range "Doom! Doom! the unbeatable space horde is comming" and has some neat elite infantry.
(that still need air support to avoid being picked off by hostile air stuff).

----------


## Shining Wrath

Infantry is the Queen of Battles. Artillery is the King since WWI or thereabouts. Now, view a bomber as a form of artillery. Then, view a spacecraft as a high-altitude bomber, perhaps with guided munitions so they can bomb accurately. Perhaps instead of bombs the spacecraft uses lasers in a short wavelength that punches right through the atmosphere. Point is, you can do some ruthless suppression of enemy air defenses before sending your valuable supers down in a landing craft. Once the super-infantry are on the ground they can (if properly trained as a team) do some nasty combined arms stuff.

----------


## Ibrinar

Since teleportation as a power is a thing in this setting, a few supers with very long range group teleports would drastically change the situation. Suddenly a group of supers is on your flagship and shooting their vehicle down means shooting your own flagship. If you give everyone random powers quite a few will probably be crap compared to scifi tech, but a few will be game changers.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Since teleportation as a power is a thing in this setting, a few supers with very long range group teleports would drastically change the situation. Suddenly a group of supers is on your flagship and shooting their vehicle down means shooting your own flagship. If you give everyone random powers quite a few will probably be crap compared to scifi tech, but a few will be game changers.


It depends, of course. Marvel's Nightcrawler is somewhat powerful, but probably can't destroy your flagship by himself. Unless he can bring Thor with him, or the Hulk.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Mechalich

The thing about space fantasy warfare is that _everything_ depends on genre and setting specific conceits. Everything. The author decides what the fictional technologies are and how they work and since the central tech - FTL, energy sources, 'shields,' etc. - are usually complete handwavium its turtles all the way down. As such, if Dave says supers are significant in warfare in his space fantasy, then they're significant and the setting warps accordingly so that it shall be so. Based on the Fel encounter the in-universe answer in this case seems to be 'shields,' which at least has a strong pedigree.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well problem is its based on intern comic stuff, that i guess Dave, or at least Deus, overlook.
The Fell fight kinda showed the importance of having a strong ship for certain.

Of course Tom meanwhile does just see supers as high quality mercenaries to hire.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

> If you give everyone random powers quite a few will probably be crap compared to scifi tech, but a few will be game changers.


Yeah, some super powers may get outclassed by a spaceship, but others scale quite well into sci-fi levels of power. For instance, if more super-inteligences like Deus pop up that can keep overthrowing theories that have been established for millennia, Earth (or at least Earthlings) will become very very important, quite fast.

What other powers 'scale' well? A few off the top of my head. Super skill like Math (who may or may not have powers himself, but in principle) if applied to something like research science or piloting instead of martial arts (and heck, even martial skill will make you extremely good at boarding enemy ships and taking them over). Truth detection/mind reading. Any ability to predict the future.

----------


## The Glyphstone

I'm not sure if citing the Fel battleship that Maxima singlehandedly obliterated is a great example of the innate superiority spaceships have over supers...sure, she is an outlier even by super standards, but there's a limitless number of less flashy power sets that could be useful.

Teleportation/portals were mentioned. What about technopathy? That spaceship's not so great when a tech-controlling super has taken it over from a distance. Actually, technopathy in general is probably a power that scales very well, because its utility is directly proportionate to the level of tech it has access to.

----------


## Shining Wrath

I think a super-hacker could be quite dangerous, so long as some sort of computer is involved in modern warfare / warships. Not the horrible stupidity of _Independence Day_, mind, but something a little closer to how an actual hacker would operate. Especially if it can be combined with some sort of remote access. There's a reason we have SCIFs; upgrading warships to that level might be expensive.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> What other powers 'scale' well?


Pretty much any non-combat power would remain useful in a sci-fi tech society, I think.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I'm not sure if citing the Fel battleship that Maxima singlehandedly obliterated is a great example of the innate superiority spaceships have over supers...sure, she is an outlier even by super standards, but there's a limitless number of less flashy power sets that could be useful.


It is a great example, because its a mistake to claim Maxima singlehandedly obliterated the Fell Ship. 
She did not. It was a teamup between Maxima and Cobra's ship. Who provided shielding for Max while she focused on offense.




> Pretty much any non-combat power would remain useful in a sci-fi tech society, I think.


The non-combat powers are likely at least useful.
But at the same time. What non-combat utility do we have thats not already covered by magic?

----------


## Shining Wrath

> It is a great example, because its a mistake to claim Maxima singlehandedly obliterated the Fell Ship. 
> She did not. It was a teamup between Maxima and Cobra's ship. Who provided shielding for Max while she focused on offense.
> 
> 
> 
> The non-combat powers are likely at least useful.
> But at the same time. What non-combat utility do we have thats not already covered by magic?


Hacking. Imagine someone as good at getting past computer firewalls as Math is at fighting? I don't see a magical equivalent to that.
Persuasion. Persuasion is not the same as magical mind control, because it's more permanent and the person doesn't hate you if it fails. Imagine someone whose ability to change people's opinions is on the same level as Maxima's death ray. Imagine that person with a TV show.

----------


## lord_khaine

I confess i cant really imagine someone being better at hacking than a AI. 
Or for that matter counter-hacking.

It also kinda seems like Succubi to a large degree already cover the persuasion bit. 
But its more Deus im worried about behind a TV show. Since his super intelligence would allow him to run circles around political opponents.

----------


## Keltest

> I confess i cant really imagine someone being better at hacking than a AI. 
> Or for that matter counter-hacking.
> 
> It also kinda seems like Succubi to a large degree already cover the persuasion bit. 
> But its more Deus im worried about behind a TV show. Since his super intelligence would allow him to run circles around political opponents.


There is very much a level where its possible to be too intelligent to be able to communicate with people. Deus is smart, and sort of charismatic, but just look at the one TV interview he had on page. He can't get people on his side just by force of words, he needs to plan things ahead and have tangible benefits for anybody to want anything to do with him. Money, items, information, THESE are what he has to deal with people, and nobody actually likes or listens to him on a personal level except maybe Harem (who's motives and allegiances are currently unknown).

----------


## Shining Wrath

I think seduction is only one form of persuasion, and despite what James Bond movies suggest, it does not work on everyone.  :Small Big Grin: 

An AI could apply the techniques developed by a skilled hacker, endlessly and rapidly, but spotting the holes in a piece of software is still a human skill.

A super performer could be interesting; an Orpheus type where you literally cannot take your eyes off them while they perform. As part of a team while the super pickpocket cleans everyone out.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

Have we actually seen any AIs yet? I can't remember any of the top of my head, excluding magical constructs and the aliens on Alari (assuming they were robots), none of whom displayed any of the incredible intelligence/processing speed typically associated with sci-fi AIs.

----------


## Traab

> I'm not sure if citing the Fel battleship that Maxima singlehandedly obliterated is a great example of the innate superiority spaceships have over supers...sure, she is an outlier even by super standards, but there's a limitless number of less flashy power sets that could be useful.
> 
> Teleportation/portals were mentioned. What about technopathy? That spaceship's not so great when a tech-controlling super has taken it over from a distance. Actually, technopathy in general is probably a power that scales very well, because its utility is directly proportionate to the level of tech it has access to.


If anything, the fel battle shows that supers really ARE a game changer when it comes to sci fi battles. Cora was flabbergasted by EVERYONE, not just maxima. From jiggawatt and her ultra high voltage shorting out shields, to guys like stalwart and hiro just punching entire ranks of fel soldiers like sauron swinging his mace, to yes, maxima, one shotting a fel battlecruiser. That being said, air superiority is how wars are won. If you control the skies, you can control the ground with your infantry. Take maxima out of the equation, without her there, it doesnt matter how many fell troops hiro can one punch unless he can also absorb battlecruiser blasts as well.

----------


## The Glyphstone

Like I said above though, Hiro doesn't need to tank a battlecruiser blast. He just needs to be sitting on top of something important enough that the battlecruiser isn't willing to blow it up to kill him. That's when you need your infantry.

----------


## Gez

> That being said, air superiority is how wars are won. If you control the skies, you can control the ground with your infantry.


Air superiority is a way to win battles, not to win wars. And you can lose a war despite winning every battle; that's the lesson of asymmetric warfare and counter-insurgency. Post-colonial wars in Africa, Vietnam war, Soviet war in Afghanistan, American war in Afghanistan, and so on... all wars lost despite air superiority and, on paper, overwhelming conventional advantages.

Super powers are less about being able to tank a blast from a battlecruiser, and more about an unknown number of random people being able to scry-and-fry your battlecruiser. If your costly military equipment can be lost just because some anonymous guy you had no way of knowing about just discovered he could blow it up just by wishing it away very hard, you're just out of luck. You may not even know _who_ did it. Or how many others could do the same thing.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Air superiority is very expensive - for every plane there's a highly trained crew to fly it, and a highly trained crew to maintain it, and a whole lot of logistics to keep the expensive avionics and high-performance engines working.

And all of that can be lost if a Hiro hops over your fence, runs at incredible speed onto your flight line, and punches each plane once. Or picks one plane up and tosses it onto the next one, wash, rinse, repeat. To say nothing of what the pew-pew-pew supers (Halo, Maxima) can do. Air superiority relies on air bases being secure, and someone who looks like a civilian right up until they start trashing your aircraft makes that really hard.

Somewhat relevant story: Moffat NAS in Mountain View held an airshow, and had planes on static display. Some dude with too much liquid stupidity in his belly crossed over the ropes to get a closer look at an F-16.

Attendant (young woman): "Sir, please return to the other side of the rope."
Dude: _Unprintable misogyny_.
Attendant: _Uses radio_
_Sound of Marine police approaching rapidly. Large men in full military gear form line between dude and plane_
Attendant: "Sir, get your a$$ on the other side of that rope".
Dude: _Sheepishly complies_

Now imagine if Dude is not drunken idiot and instead is capable of trashing a squad of Marines.

----------


## sihnfahl

> And all of that can be lost if a Hiro hops over your fence, runs at incredible speed onto your flight line, and punches each plane once. Or picks one plane up and tosses it onto the next one, wash, rinse, repeat. To say nothing of what the pew-pew-pew supers (Halo, Maxima) can do. Air superiority relies on air bases being secure, and someone who looks like a civilian right up until they start trashing your aircraft makes that really hard.


Or, heck, fouls the fuel supply.  Midair 'sputter, clunk'.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Or, heck, fouls the fuel supply.  Midair 'sputter, clunk'.


Imagine a chemistry / alchemy super and fuel tanks. Works for tanks / APVs, too. Or for that matter, gunpowder & equivalents.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Imagine a chemistry / alchemy super and fuel tanks. Works for tanks / APVs, too. Or for that matter, gunpowder & equivalents.


And then H2O becomes H2O2... in your cells.  All of it.

----------


## The Glyphstone

To play devils advocate, when you are dealing with Space/orbital superiority over atmospheric air superiority, a lot of these problems do get muted somewhat depending on the range of a particular supers unique ability. At the very least, Hiro can't destroy/sabotage docked ships in a hangar/moon base as easily as he can fighters parked on the ground (unless paired with a mobility power super).

----------


## sihnfahl

> To play devils advocate, when you are dealing with Space/orbital superiority over atmospheric air superiority, a lot of these problems do get muted somewhat depending on the range of a particular supers unique ability. At the very least, Hiro can't destroy/sabotage docked ships in a hangar/moon base as easily as he can fighters parked on the ground (unless paired with a mobility power super).


And the limit of the mobility super's power.  As Sydney found out, space laughs at your puny mach 1.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> To play devils advocate, when you are dealing with Space/orbital superiority over atmospheric air superiority, a lot of these problems do get muted somewhat depending on the range of a particular supers unique ability. At the very least, Hiro can't destroy/sabotage docked ships in a hangar/moon base as easily as he can fighters parked on the ground (unless paired with a mobility power super).


Also, Hiro needs to breathe, so far as I can tell.




> And the limit of the mobility super's power.  As Sydney found out, space laughs at your puny mach 1.





> Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.


Unless you're Halo, you need to be part of a combined-arms team. She's the only one who can provide her own air, teleport, and then fight when she gets there. Everyone else needs to be part of a team.

----------


## Traab

> Also, Hiro needs to breathe, so far as I can tell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you're Halo, you need to be part of a combined-arms team. She's the only one who can provide her own air, teleport, and then fight when she gets there. Everyone else needs to be part of a team.


Too be fair, her teleport isnt exactly long distance, its as far as she can send her light bee. And her flight isnt really interstellar level. She has the fold space travel skill, but has no idea how to aim it other than by clicking on saved locations. So sydney honestly wouldnt be very useful for traveling to a moon base or something further away. Anything in earths atmosphere/orbit? Sure, she could handle bringing the hero squad at a fast clip. Anything lunar or beyond? Probably not so much.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Too be fair, her teleport isnt exactly long distance, its as far as she can send her light bee. And her flight isnt really interstellar level. She has the fold space travel skill, but has no idea how to aim it other than by clicking on saved locations. So sydney honestly wouldnt be very useful for traveling to a moon base or something further away. Anything in earths atmosphere/orbit? Sure, she could handle bringing the hero squad at a fast clip. Anything lunar or beyond? Probably not so much.


I think it was intimated that Sydney learned how to use the Causeway feature of her speed orb back here  The only thing it lacked was a map, and they hooked her up, so she's got a few major locations saved up until she can finagle more.

----------


## Traab

> I think it was intimated that Sydney learned how to use the Causeway feature of her speed orb back here  The only thing it lacked was a map, and they hooked her up, so she's got a few major locations saved up until she can finagle more.


It is possible she can use it for more than day trips to the fracture station and back, I forgot about that, but even then, not sure if it lets her go wherever she wants more or less or if its just a few major landmarks she can work with to re-orient herself on.

----------


## sihnfahl

> It is possible she can use it for more than day trips to the fracture station and back, I forgot about that, but even then, not sure if it lets her go wherever she wants more or less or if its just a few major landmarks she can work with to re-orient herself on.


The main issue is her intrasystem speeds.  Sure, she can probably hop to major systems now, but how fast can she get from Earth to Mars?

We know she can hit mach 16 (word of God), but that's a measly ~ 12.28k mph.  The distance is about 142 million miles.

Or about 11,551 hours away.  Longer than a year.

While your average starship probably does that distance in the length of time it takes to toast a pop tart.

----------


## Radar

If Sydney can manually aim with that drive, she will have no problem with going to whatever target within her sight like for example the Moon or Mars. Precision of that drive is good enough that when she went to fracture and back, she actually came back to the original location on Earth and not some thousands of kilometers away. So intrasystem movement is most likely not an issue.

----------


## sihnfahl

And now we know how Deus was going to help Cthillia get the souls to repower the rejuvenator.

And dealing with the psycho supers.

----------


## Rydiro

> And now we know how Deus was going to help Cthillia get the souls to repower the rejuvenator.
> 
> And dealing with the psycho supers.


At least he is not classically evil. He does care about innocents.

----------


## sihnfahl

> At least he is not classically evil. He does care about innocents.


Does he care about innocents, or the fact that they were trying to destabilize the country he put so much investment in, and harm the people he's trying to use as part of his economic engine?

----------


## Traab

> Does he care about innocents, or the fact that they were trying to destabilize the country he put so much investment in, and harm the people he's trying to use as part of his economic engine?


I think Ryd was talking about punishing Vale for her collateral damage or bloodbath or whatever she was doing when someone died who shouldnt have and deus made her cry.

----------


## sihnfahl

> I think Ryd was talking about punishing Vale for her collateral damage or bloodbath or whatever she was doing when someone died who shouldnt have and deus made her cry.


The explanation in the flavor text below the comic, then.

"Not in some sort of collateral damage incident, but in a capricious, get out of my way, brat! way during an incident when she was chasing down some guy who emptied an AK-47 at a Doctors Without Borders convoy that Deus was meeting with."

----------


## lord_khaine

> And now we know how Deus was going to help Cthillia get the souls to repower the rejuvenator.


We have not been told anything about souls.
Just that its recharget on kills. 




> At least he is not classically evil. He does care about innocents.


Still hard to estimate if he is evil at all.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> We have not been told anything about souls.
> Just that its recharget on kills. 
> 
> 
> 
> Still hard to estimate if he is evil at all.


Actually, in the text below a recent comic there was a Dave comment about "Just in case you were starting to think Deus was a good guy".

He's evil.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Actually, in the text below a recent comic there was a Dave comment about "Just in case you were starting to think Deus was a good guy".
> 
> He's evil.


The actual quote i think your refering to is this?
"And just when some of you started coming around on Deus. Of course, some of you might like him more now as well."

That was from the comic where Deus was about to have a bunch of terrorists executed. 
A decent number of states does that. Would you like to claim all of them are evil? 

Back on Deus we dont have author comment going either way.
Likely quite intentional.

----------


## Dragonus45

> The actual quote i think your refering to is this?
> "And just when some of you started coming around on Deus. Of course, some of you might like him more now as well."
> 
> That was from the comic where Deus was about to have a bunch of terrorists executed. 
> A decent number of states does that. Would you like to claim all of them are evil? 
> 
> Back on Deus we dont have author comment going either way.
> Likely quite intentional.


So there are questions about what if any trial process they went through and then questions about fair and just punishment probably not including being sacrificed to an ancient evil weapon considered to heinous it was locked beneath the ocean behind dozens of counter measures alongside dozens of other artifacts of great power. Like, I believe that Deus is honestly trying to consider the global fate of all humanity on Earth and has decent intentions even if he may be motivated purely by greed and a desire to maintain a personal standard of living with everyone else being happy and healthy as a means to an end. But he also clearly has a very low floor for what he will do to make it happen. Also this could still all be an act, we just don't see far enough into his head at this point to work it out.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> So there are questions about what if any trial process they went through and then questions about fair and just punishment probably not including being sacrificed to an ancient evil weapon considered to heinous it was locked beneath the ocean behind dozens of counter measures alongside dozens of other artifacts of great power. Like, I believe that Deus is honestly trying to consider the global fate of all humanity on Earth and has decent intentions even if he may be motivated purely by greed and a desire to maintain a personal standard of living with everyone else being happy and healthy as a means to an end. But he also clearly has a very low floor for what he will do to make it happen. Also this could still all be an act, we just don't see far enough into his head at this point to work it out.


I'm going to argue that working with Cthilla probably means you're bad. And using Cthilla as a trap for Max is also probably bad. A lot of minions are likely to get hurt when this goes down. Anvil, for example, is pretty much out of her league here.

----------


## Radar

> I'm going to argue that working with Cthilla probably means you're bad. And using Cthilla as a trap for Max is also probably bad. A lot of minions are likely to get hurt when this goes down. Anvil, for example, is pretty much out of her league here.


This guy attacking right now is very much not Cthilla - having the face wrapped up is the only similarity here. The attacker is very much human as was shown in his first appearance, while Cthilla is very much not to the point where they are not sure if there is any other being like them.

As for working with Cthilla, in of itself one could make the same argument as for Roy working with Belkar. Details however may vary.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> This guy attacking right now is very much not Cthilla - having the face wrapped up is the only similarity here. The attacker is very much human as was shown in his first appearance, while Cthilla is very much not to the point where they are not sure if there is any other being like them.
> 
> As for working with Cthilla, in of itself one could make the same argument as for Roy working with Belkar. Details however may vary.


As to Roy working with Belkar, we have the word of Lawful Good Deva that Roy brought his evil back down under the "Love Child of Sauron and Cruella de Ville" line.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## halfeye

> As to Roy working with Belkar, we have the word of Lawful Good Deva that Roy brought his evil back down under the "Love Child of Sauron and Cruella de Ville" line.


Love Child? not hate child?

----------


## Rydiro

The comic is still somewhat unclear if he ordered to kill pure missionaries or if those missionaries were part of violent marauding bands.

Terminating pure, nonviolent missionaries seems evil Overkill. Just put them into Jail.

----------


## sihnfahl

> The comic is still somewhat unclear if he ordered to kill pure missionaries or if those missionaries were part of violent marauding bands. Terminating pure, nonviolent missionaries seems evil Overkill. Just put them into Jail.


No, that's just part of his Lecture Series.

It's implied he only has her kill mercenaries.

Missionaries just get ... The Speech.

----------


## Radar

> Love Child? not hate child?


I hope we will not need charts and quadrants to figure this out.  :Small Wink:

----------


## lord_khaine

> So there are questions about what if any trial process they went through and then questions about fair and just punishment probably not including being sacrificed to an ancient evil weapon considered to heinous it was locked beneath the ocean behind dozens of counter measures alongside dozens of other artifacts of great power. Like, I believe that Deus is honestly trying to consider the global fate of all humanity on Earth and has decent intentions even if he may be motivated purely by greed and a desire to maintain a personal standard of living with everyone else being happy and healthy as a means to an end.


Initially. I personally think its pretty clear by now the bit about Greed was just a smokescreen. 
By all account Deus already has the degree of wealth where he could not use all of his money if he actively tried. I mean. This guy decided having a personal island wasnt &%¤ enough, and went ahead and got himself a personal country.

While as for trial. Well the purpose of those is to establish guilt, and protect the innocent. 
These were seemingly armed mercenaries caught planning terrorist action. People are executed for less than bombing hospitals.
And lets not get into the actual morality of this. But i hope everyone agrees that -if- anyone deserves execution, its scum like this. 

By all account Deus does care a lot about guilt versus innocence, when he even discipline his personal right hand. 

While as for the weapon. Nothing we have been told indicate its evil itself.
It just encourage mass murder because its to useful.




> It's implied he only has her kill mercenaries.


More than implied. Straight up stated its only mercenaries illegally entering the country on a mission that gets a visit from Vale.

----------


## Rydiro

Oh so he just kills murdering rape-bands who terrorize 'his' country.
Like yeah, you can critizise the lack of the rule of law*. Then again, most countries in the world are lacking in that regard.

* Actually, Vale is the capturing police force, Deus is the Judge and Cthilla executioner. At least some separation of duties is achieved.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Oh so he just kills murdering rape-bands who terrorize 'his' country.
> Like yeah, you can critizise the lack of the rule of law*. Then again, most countries in the world are lacking in that regard.


Well.. those who live by the sword. Personally i do find it understandable that if caught in the act Deus just has them ended.
I dont see it that much different from a police shooting of a terrorist. 

Like. Its perhaps not ideal. But certainly a huge step up from how things were. 
And i do think allowances can be made for basically being in a warzone.

----------


## Traab

> Well.. those who live by the sword. Personally i do find it understandable that if caught in the act Deus just has them ended.
> I dont see it that much different from a police shooting of a terrorist. 
> 
> Like. Its perhaps not ideal. But certainly a huge step up from how things were. 
> And i do think allowances can be made for basically being in a warzone.


You could argue the moral point of vale being so strong that she has no need to kill, like superman taking down muggers. Yeah they have guns, but they literally cant do anything with them to endanger anyone while superman is there so no, superman shouldnt be setting them on fire with his heat vision. But honestly, at that point we are arguing a sliding scale of justice and right versus wrong and police action versus military action and it all gets bogged down. I prefer to keep it simple, as far as we can tell, deus does not allow his people to rampage or hurt the innocent. If they do he finds ways to deal with that. We dont know what vale is yet so for all we know a lecture good enough to make her cry is about as strong a punishment as he can do to her. You wont punish anvil by spanking her, so you gotta find what works, you know? So im going to go with, he aint no saint, but neither is he a devil. He is enforcing his control over the area he takes over, seems to be lethal towards what pretty much everyone would agree are bad guys, and so far as we can tell does not condone nor allow harming innocents. So he is good enough for me, unless his end goal ends up being something absurd.

----------


## Mechalich

> So he is good enough for me, unless his end goal ends up being something absurd.


His end goals appear to be a post-scarcity utopia for humanity with himself as the immortal god-king, which on the megalomaniac scale is pretty good. 

Deus is, ultimately, very much an 'ends justify the means' kind of guy. However much restraint he exercises he still does thing like launch unrestrained wars of aggression. The big thing about 'the ends justify the means' is that achieving the ends is actually extremely rare. Most attempts to pave the way to paradise along a road of skulls end up with a road of skulls leading nowhere. Deus is powerful, but he's not invincible and there are other actors who oppose him and are going to make his path very bloody indeed, as Darude has helpfully just showed up to illustrate.

----------


## Rydiro

> Most attempts to pave the way to paradise along a road of skulls end up with a road of skulls leading nowhere.


I agree with that sentiment generally (especially in real life). Deus though has already made progress. The living conditions for his subjects have improved. He seems to be measuring his progress on that front regularly.

----------


## lord_khaine

Hmm.. to be pedantic then i dont think megalomaniac fits Deus. So far he has not shown an obsessive wish for power.
Nor the desire to become the immortal god-king. I also cant see why he would want that. It sounds excessively dull compared to just being the advisor to the king.

And i also dont think its fitting to call them unrestrained wars.
Actually it seems surgical, or minimal aggression is more fitting. Since Deus has employed such an overwhelming degree of force and supers he could afford to use the kid gloves on his opponents.

Else yeah it does seem like Deus can already show an impressive degree of progress in his pocket state.
Max has confirmed the investments in infrastructure.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Since motives matter, the question I'd pose is:
_Does Deus seek power so he can improve people's lives, or does Deus improve citizen's lives as a part of a path to greater power?
_And I think the answer is undoubtedly "some of both", but it may well turn out it was 99% of one and 1% of the other. And keeping us in suspense as to the exact breakdown is part of the dramatic tension of the story.

----------


## Traab

You know who deus reminds me of? A mix of Lex Luthor and Dr Doom. He is the ruthless businessman with all the connections and ability to achieve his goals, mixed with the somewhat egotistical, but arguably deserved outlook that the world would be better under his rule. And he also has lines he doesnt seem to cross. His failing is, he is used to being the most clever person in the room, so he is sure he can think his way out of any issues that may arise such as dealing with demons.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Hmm.. to be pedantic then i dont think megalomaniac fits Deus. So far he has not shown an obsessive wish for power.
> Nor the desire to become the immortal god-king. I also cant see why he would want that. It sounds excessively dull compared to just being the advisor to the king.
> 
> And i also dont think its fitting to call them unrestrained wars.
> Actually it seems surgical, or minimal aggression is more fitting. Since Deus has employed such an overwhelming degree of force and supers he could afford to use the kid gloves on his opponents.
> 
> Else yeah it does seem like Deus can already show an impressive degree of progress in his pocket state.
> Max has confirmed the investments in infrastructure.


At a glance, I think his pocket state is now bigger than Egypt, particularly if you incorporate Mozambique into it, so perhaps it should upgrade to pouch or satchel state.
If I had to guess, Deus's motivation in starting all of this is more "because he can", and now there's more things there.

I guess his country is kind of like a Lawful Neutral w/ Good tendencies being run by a Lawful Evil w/ Chaotic tendencies? Idk
It's clearly prioritizing ethics and fair law and equity and whatnot but for all we know, uh... I don't know.

----------


## Keltest

Deus respects the rule of law exactly as long as it doesn't get in his way, and not an ounce more. Ask Mozambique. He's employing bread and circuses for the modern age. We just haven't seen him when he's reacting to somebody he can't understand yet.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Deus respects the rule of law exactly as long as it doesn't get in his way, and not an ounce more. Ask Mozambique. He's employing bread and circuses for the modern age. We just haven't seen him when he's reacting to somebody he can't understand yet.


Or when he's stymied by someone who has outplayed him according to the rules - which he doesn't believe is possible, of course.

----------


## lord_khaine

> At a glance, I think his pocket state is now bigger than Egypt, particularly if you incorporate Mozambique into it, so perhaps it should upgrade to pouch or satchel state.
> If I had to guess, Deus's motivation in starting all of this is more "because he can", and now there's more things there.


Yeah but its only his pocket state he has had a chance to actually change things in. 
He is working on getting the machines to improve the new spots.




> Deus respects the rule of law exactly as long as it doesn't get in his way, and not an ounce more. Ask Mozambique. He's employing bread and circuses for the modern age. We just haven't seen him when he's reacting to somebody he can't understand yet.


You mean just bread i think? When people were formerly at the risk of starvation im quite certain that just a guarantee of a daily meal and clean water is enough. No need for circus.




> Or when he's stymied by someone who has outplayed him according to the rules - which he doesn't believe is possible, of course.


Being someone who works with plans 5-10 years in scope makes it pretty likely he just goes "oh well.. plan B-4 it is then". 
Like we saw with the dictator who refused to be reasonable.

----------


## Keltest

> You mean just bread i think? When people were formerly at the risk of starvation im quite certain that just a guarantee of a daily meal and clean water is enough. No need for circus.


I was thinking bread and Air Conditioning personally. You'd be hard pressed to find a group willing to overthrow their leader if it means giving that up.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I was thinking bread and Air Conditioning personally. You'd be hard pressed to find a group willing to overthrow their leader if it means giving that up.


Good point on air conditioning. Im from the north so i usually more look at heating xD

Of course its also kinda telling Deus is providing this to people who didnt have it.
Where clearly noone else gave a **** about them before. Or well. 
noone in power did.

----------


## halfeye

> I was thinking bread and Air Conditioning personally. You'd be hard pressed to find a group willing to overthrow their leader if it means giving that up.


These are people adapted to the climate they are in, they probably don't need or want AC.

----------


## Keltest

> These are people adapted to the climate they are in, they probably don't need or want AC.


Texans are adapted to the climate they live in. They did so by adopting AC en masse.

----------


## Gez

> These are people adapted to the climate they are in, they probably don't need or want AC.


That doesn't correspond to my own experience of Africa...

----------


## Radar

> These are people adapted to the climate they are in, they probably don't need or want AC.


There is a vast gulf of difference between getting used to something and considering it comfortable.

They will obviously not set the AC as low as - let's say - someone from Europe or Canada would, but any temperature above 36.6 is something you never want. You can obviously survive by seeking shelter and drinking a lot of water, but hardly anyone would consider it something they would not want to change.

----------


## TeChameleon

> These are people adapted to the climate they are in, they probably don't need or want AC.


Yeah, I'm from the opposite end of the spectrum, being Canadian, and I have a cold tolerance that a lot of people from more Southerly areas would consider ludicrous.  I'm pretty well adapted to life up here; that being said, if you want to try and take my heating away from me, you can **** right off.

----------


## lord_khaine

So in conclusion.
Deus gave his people bread and air conditioning. 
So understandably he has their undying gratitude?  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Radar

> So in conclusion.
> Deus gave his people bread and air conditioning. 
> So understandably he has their undying gratitude?


Undying might not be the right word (especially since I think he did not hire any necromancer), but those people would have to have a *really* good reason to oppose him. And aside from basic amenities, he gave those people a lot more: healthcare, education, stability, safe jobs and so on.

So I think that if they learned about the less stellar parts of Deus's rulership they would not care much. On one hand, he is treating them way better than any other ruler around would. On the other, moral standard for rulers seemed to be pretty low in the region (with previous dictator of Galynt as the prime example), so no one would be the least bit shocked if they learned that Deus has assassinated someone for example - they have seen far worse.

----------


## Gez

> They will obviously not set the AC as low as - let's say - someone from Europe or Canada would


One should be cautious about what they consider obvious...

----------


## Radar

> One should be cautious about what they consider obvious...


True that. You had any particular experiences in that regard?

----------


## lord_khaine

> So I think that if they learned about the less stellar parts of Deus's rulership they would not care much. On one hand, he is treating them way better than any other ruler around would. On the other, moral standard for rulers seemed to be pretty low in the region (with previous dictator of Galynt as the prime example), so no one would be the least bit shocked if they learned that Deus has assassinated someone for example - they have seen far worse.


Lets be honest here, without getting further into specific examples.
What we have seen Deus do, have invading terrorists killed on national soil, still give him the moral high ground on the vast majority of rulers.
Im not even certain arranging "accidents" in other countries is enough there. 

Again without getting to much further into details. Then i think very few rulers have much cleaner hands than Deus.
Well or they have not been in power long. No numbers are given that i recall. But i assume Deus have been in power for more than a decade.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Lets be honest here, without getting further into specific examples.
> What we have seen Deus do, have invading terrorists killed on national soil, still give him the moral high ground on the vast majority of rulers.
> Im not even certain arranging "accidents" in other countries is enough there.


First of all, those weren't terrorists. Some were rapists, and one was a missionary who preached something that Deus didn't like.
Second, there's no evidence that these people's deaths were authorized by Galtyn's actual legal system, which means their deaths constitute murder.
Finally, even if we were to accept your argument that Deus is less evil than most rulers, that doesn't mean he's good.

----------


## Vahnavoi

Deus might have legal ability to execute those people and under normal laws there might even be grounds for doing so.

Those details are largely irrelevant when he's feeding their lives or souls to some humanoid abomination. That makes him morally suspect all over again, because what good exactly is done by empowering Cthilla is completely beyond knowledge of any reader at the moment.

For a mundane comparison, imagine a dictatorship that only has a death penalty so they can harvest organs of the convicted... and use them to keep their soldiers up and running.

----------


## Kantaki

> Those details are largely irrelevant when he's feeding their lives or souls to some humanoid abomination. That makes him morally suspect all over again, because what good exactly is done by empowering Cthilla is completely beyond knowledge of any reader at the moment.


Only says lives here.
And honestly? If he's gonna have them killed anyway might as well recharge the Dagger of Plastic Surgery.
Two birds one stone and all that.
I mean, would it be better if he let Cthilla loose on ome random civilians?

----------


## lord_khaine

> First of all, those weren't terrorists. Some were rapists, and one was a missionary who preached something that Deus didn't like.
> Second, there's no evidence that these people's deaths were authorized by Galtyn's actual legal system, which means their deaths constitute murder.
> Finally, even if we were to accept your argument that Deus is less evil than most rulers, that doesn't mean he's good.


They were foreign mercenaries doing stuff to disrupt things in Galtyn.
Thats basically the definition of a terrorist. Deus just likes long winded speaches. So there were a seperate one for the rapists. 
The massive wall of text beneath the comic went into details about it. 

And noone has presented arguments for Deus being good. Just that he is like a better person than the majority of the current ones we have.
While also being more effective than any one of them, due to being a super genius pretending to be a goofball.




> Those details are largely irrelevant when he's feeding their lives or souls to some humanoid abomination. That makes him morally suspect all over again, because what good exactly is done by empowering Cthilla is completely beyond knowledge of any reader at the moment.


Not even certain it actually empowers her. 
Mostly she seems to want it for the plastic surgery effect.

----------


## sihnfahl

Deus is -kinKAY-.

Or trolling again.

----------


## The Glyphstone

#WhyNotBoth

----------


## Shining Wrath

Deus may plan on conquering the world, and may have some other bad attitudes / deeds; but sometimes his childish delight in what he can do with his wealth is fun.

Even if it does include sex dolls (I hope those aren't real women) behind glass.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> They were foreign mercenaries doing stuff to disrupt things in Galtyn.
> Thats basically the definition of a terrorist.


No, it's not. And even if the mercenaries were terrorists, he's still also murdering someone for saying things he doesn't like.




> And noone has presented arguments for Deus being good. Just that he is like a better person than the majority of the current ones we have.


The difference between "This person is good" and "This person is better than all comparable people" seems largely semantic to me. If you don't think Deus is good, why does it matter if he's better than other rulers? A bad ruler is still bad even if there are worse rulers.

----------


## Radar

> Deus may plan on conquering the world, and may have some other bad attitudes / deeds; but sometimes his childish delight in what he can do with his wealth is fun.
> 
> Even if it does include sex dolls (I hope those aren't real women) behind glass.


Considering how those panels slide, I think those were just some paintings. It does however show, he has a particular inclination toward women with metallic complexion.

And I do agree with him: who _doesn't_ want a room with secret panels? That would be so cool!  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Vahnavoi

> I mean, would it be better if he let Cthilla loose on some random civilians?


No, but there's a world of solutions that don't involve Cthilla killing anyone. Deus has the necessary tools to lock both her and the epimorph up.

----------


## Kantaki

> Deus is -kinKAY-.
> 
> Or trolling again.


Probably a bit of both.
Pressing the wrong buttons (and at least some of the panels) is definitely the latter.
I _really_ dont't want to think about the former.




> No, but there's a world of solutions that don't involve Cthilla killing anyone. Deus has the necessary tools to lock both her and the epimorph up.


And loose a useful asset? Several possibly seeing there were witnesses*?
Also, ticking someone off who can seemingly kill with a look strikes me as a bad idea.
Besides, Deus wanted those guys dead anyway, so he might as well (let Chtilla) recharge the funky knife.

Definitely not _good_, but unless it turns out the thing eats souls to fuel it's make over magic I wouldn't condemn it either.
Plus, it is hardly surprising. It was in the Vault for being "too useful not to use", so unless it's overtly evil I could see a point in keeping it charged. You never know when you need a new nose.

*Maybe. I think a good part of why Deus is so successful is because he keeps his deals, so people will keep working for him.
Backstabbing Chtilla might hurt that reputation unless there's a really good and obvious reason.

----------


## Rydiro

> The difference between "This person is good" and "This person is better than all comparable people" seems largely semantic to me. If you don't think Deus is good, why does it matter if he's better than other rulers? A bad ruler is still bad even if there are worse rulers.


Well to argue semantically, the word good has two meanings. One being morally good, the other being effective or useful. No one is really arguing Deus isnt good in the sense that he is bad or ineffective. People say that he isnt good in the sense that he is morally evil.

----------


## lord_khaine

> No, it's not. And even if the mercenaries were terrorists, he's still also murdering someone for saying things he doesn't like.


According to the dictionary they are.
"a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Source Oxford languages.

That seems to fit a mercenary team caught preparing to bomb a hospital nicely.
I dont know where you got the other part from. But i think you lack evidence for it. 
Thats basically directly contracted by the author explanation on when Deus might arrange a visit from Vale.

Unless you mean the former ruler of Galtyn? 
More for refusing to step aside. But at the same time he was a warlord.
Whose hands were a lot more dirty than Deus.




> The difference between "This person is good" and "This person is better than all comparable people" seems largely semantic to me. If you don't think Deus is good, why does it matter if he's better than other rulers? A bad ruler is still bad even if there are worse rulers.


Really? to me it seems a crucial difference. You might prefer having a good person on a position.
But if it requires to many sketchy dealings for a good person to succeed. Then at least you would prefer a person who isnt bad.




> Well to argue semantically, the word good has two meanings. One being morally good, the other being effective or useful. No one is really arguing Deus isnt good in the sense that he is bad or ineffective. People say that he isnt good in the sense that he is morally evil.


I dont think anyone contest that Deus is extremely efficient. I do believe the discussion is purely about morally good.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> According to the dictionary they are.
> "a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Source Oxford languages.
> 
> That seems to fit a mercenary team caught preparing to bomb a hospital nicely.


Okay, I missed the part about them (trying?) to bomb a hospital. I'll agree, they qualify as terrorists. That still doesn't mean it's okay to extrajudicially murder them, though.




> I dont know where you got the other part from. But i think you lack evidence for it.


Panel 3 implies, and the author's reply to this comment makes explicit, that Deus is having a missionary executed solely for preaching against the use of condoms.




> Unless you mean the former ruler of Galtyn? 
> More for refusing to step aside. But at the same time he was a warlord.
> Whose hands were a lot more dirty than Deus.


Sure, the previous king was a bad dude, but that doesn't justify Deus murdering him.




> Really? to me it seems a crucial difference. You might prefer having a good person on a position.
> But if it requires to many sketchy dealings for a good person to succeed. Then at least you would prefer a person who isnt bad.


Your argument seems to be "It's impossible for a ruler to be a good person, so we should ignore issues of morality when evaluating rulers". I see no reason to accept this argument, and thus no reason to think Deus is a good ruler.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Okay, I missed the part about them (trying?) to bomb a hospital. I'll agree, they qualify as terrorists. That still doesn't mean it's okay to extrajudicially murder them, though.


Where did you get it was an extrajudicial act?  Remember, Deus et al have set the laws.  Presumably under Galtyn's legal system, catching terrorists red-handed expedites matters; a quick call to one of Deus' judges, and the terrorists are executed.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Where did you get it was an extrajudicial act?  Remember, Deus et al have set the laws.  Presumably under Galtyn's legal system, catching terrorists red-handed expedites matters; a quick call to one of Deus' judges, and the terrorists are executed.


But things can be legal and still be morally bad. Slavery comes to mind.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Where did you get it was an extrajudicial act?  Remember, Deus et al have set the laws.  Presumably under Galtyn's legal system, catching terrorists red-handed expedites matters; a quick call to one of Deus' judges, and the terrorists are executed.


Right at the top of this comic's commentary.

----------


## sihnfahl

> But things can be legal and still be morally bad. Slavery comes to mind.


Yeah, legal isn't moral, and morality isn't legality.




> Right at the top of this comic's commentary.


Whew, yeah, I guess I forgot that one from how silly it is.

Deus is literally in a position where a terrorist act can be tried and sentenced in absentia.

----------


## Traab

I think the problem here is the difference between a hero and a political leader, and a villain. Deus is not a hero, however he also isnt evil. If anything I would put his D&D morality in true neutral. He does what he wants to achieve his goals. He doesnt go out of his way to torment others (outside of minor trolling) he looks for the most effective path towards his goals, good or evil is factored in, but not as heavily as "Will it work?" That being said, he clearly has limits he isnt willing to exceed, or at least hasnt been so far. He restricts his killing to corrupt heads of state, terrorist scum, and army versus army conflicts. Those are not in and of themselves acts of evil. He is willing to work with bad guys to achieve his goals, but likely reasons that he is restraining their actions while they work for him and thus protecting people while also using them to achieve his goals. He also is clearly willing to help people, assuming the info we get is accurate, he has spent billions rebuilding his new territory to make it a far better place for everyone inside it. You can argue he is after long term profit and probably would be right, but that doesnt negate the fact that he is improving the lives of millions of people. 

Now, this is all based on what we have seen and heard about him, so it IS possible its all an act and once he reaches a certain stage he will go full mwahaha and peel off the cover over his snidely whiplash mustache and start twirling it, but as things stand right now, he isnt that bad. He isnt that good and is causing all sorts of issues, but he isnt really being "evil"

----------


## Shining Wrath

> I think the problem here is the difference between a hero and a political leader, and a villain. Deus is not a hero, however he also isnt evil. If anything I would put his D&D morality in true neutral. He does what he wants to achieve his goals. He doesnt go out of his way to torment others (outside of minor trolling) he looks for the most effective path towards his goals, good or evil is factored in, but not as heavily as "Will it work?" That being said, he clearly has limits he isnt willing to exceed, or at least hasnt been so far. He restricts his killing to corrupt heads of state, terrorist scum, and army versus army conflicts. Those are not in and of themselves acts of evil. He is willing to work with bad guys to achieve his goals, but likely reasons that he is restraining their actions while they work for him and thus protecting people while also using them to achieve his goals. He also is clearly willing to help people, assuming the info we get is accurate, he has spent billions rebuilding his new territory to make it a far better place for everyone inside it. You can argue he is after long term profit and probably would be right, but that doesnt negate the fact that he is improving the lives of millions of people. 
> 
> Now, this is all based on what we have seen and heard about him, so it IS possible its all an act and once he reaches a certain stage he will go full mwahaha and peel off the cover over his snidely whiplash mustache and start twirling it, but as things stand right now, he isnt that bad. He isnt that good and is causing all sorts of issues, but he isnt really being "evil"


If I'm Maxima, I wouldn't kill him, but I damn sure wouldn't trust him.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Okay, I missed the part about them (trying?) to bomb a hospital. I'll agree, they qualify as terrorists. That still doesn't mean it's okay to extrajudicially murder them, though.
> 
> Panel 3 implies, and the author's reply to this comment makes explicit, that Deus is having a missionary executed solely for preaching against the use of condoms.


Well fair. I did in turn not see the authors comment. 
The preacher is perhaps the one guy who should just at most have been thrown into prison. 
Even if he did a lot of damage he was well meaning.




> Sure, the previous king was a bad dude, but that doesn't justify Deus murdering him.


Hmm.. well how bad does a tyrant have to be, before its justified overthrowing them?
Whatever examples you got, im pretty certain its only a question of scale when it comes to the difference between this guy and the others.




> Your argument seems to be "It's impossible for a ruler to be a good person, so we should ignore issues of morality when evaluating rulers". I see no reason to accept this argument, and thus no reason to think Deus is a good ruler.


How is it the saying goes? You shall know them by their fruits?
Of all the members of the comic, Deus have by far done the most to make the world a better place to live in. 
By taking some millions of people and shifting them from not having electricity to having cheap smartphones. 

Well arguments can be made for Max, for being the main force behind stopping an alien invasion. We still dont know what was up with the aftermath of that.
Or with Dabbler, who have been an adventure for 3 centuries or so. 

But thats mostly preserving the status queu.

Else for another interesting little twist of morality. 
Darude. Interestingly enough. Looking at things from his point of view he is a super hero. 
First he risked his life fighting foreign invaders, going up against the strongest known super.

Now he is at it again, trying to put an end to some nutjob who have been summoning demons.
Thats.. basically as heroic as it gets?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Hmm.. well how bad does a tyrant have to be, before its justified overthrowing them?
> Whatever examples you got, im pretty certain its only a question of scale when it comes to the difference between this guy and the others.


Many tyrants can be overthrown without killing them, and Indinge was definitely one of them. Deus could easily have had his supers incapacitate Indinge, locked him in a cell somewhere, and announce that he'd died. The fact that he was a tyrant and needed to be removed does not justify his murder.

----------


## Traab

> Many tyrants can be overthrown without killing them, and Indinge was definitely one of them. Deus could easily have had his supers incapacitate Indinge, locked him in a cell somewhere, and announce that he'd died. The fact that he was a tyrant and needed to be removed does not justify his murder.


 I mean, he may just be following the laws of the kingdom. Mass murder is often one of those crimes that gives you the death penalty in any nation where executions are a thing. And im pretty sure deus showed his son the mass graves and other atrocities his dad was guilty of. I agree, he absolutely could have just locked the dude up in some pocket space hidden in siberia or whatever, but why should he? What benefit is there to keeping a mass murdering tyrant alive in prison? And what sort of prison? He cant be kept in isolation for the rest of his life, thats considered torture. Cant put him in general population, word gets out he is alive there will be problems. I suppose they could put him up in a nice barred apartment he cant escape from with access to netflix and hulu or whatever but that hardly seems a fit punishment for a monster. Again, we seem to be hitting up against one of those "heroes dont kill" type of arguments when nobody is saying he is a hero, they are saying he is a good head of state.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Normally, "killing people when you have other workable options" is considered bad. We don't know what Deus' options really were, though.

I think we're going to have ambiguity about Deus' morality until the time for the Big Reveal to serve the story's plot. I'm leaning towards Sudden but Inevitable Betrayal, but it's possible that Sacrificing Self for Good of All is coming.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> What benefit is there to keeping a mass murdering tyrant alive in prison?


Dead people cannot make amends for their crimes. Sure, it's hugely unlikely that Indinge could be brought to the realization that what he did as king was immoral, but it's not impossible, and I think it would have been worth making the effort.

----------


## Radar

> Normally, "killing people when you have other workable options" is considered bad. We don't know what Deus' options really were, though.
> 
> I think we're going to have ambiguity about Deus' morality until the time for the Big Reveal to serve the story's plot. I'm leaning towards Sudden but Inevitable Betrayal, but it's possible that Sacrificing Self for Good of All is coming.


Or he remains a necessary evil (or necessary morally ambiguous person) that the main team needs to deal with, which is a constant source of tension - a self-serving schemer that is simply too useful not to make deals with. There does not need to be any final resolution to that the same way that for example Maxima and Hiro can tease each other without it going anywhere.

----------


## Traab

> Dead people cannot make amends for their crimes. Sure, it's hugely unlikely that Indinge could be brought to the realization that what he did as king was immoral, but it's not impossible, and I think it would have been worth making the effort.


How do you make amends for killing who knows how many people over the course of likely decades as an iron fisted tyrant? And why should deus even bother trying to go that route as there is literally nothing in it for him? And good lord, there is good, then there is irrationally saintly. And trying to redeem indinge and bring him into the light? Thats way outside of rational thought. Thats like... stereotypical archangel type talk. You dont have to be better than mr rogers to be good.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> How do you make amends for killing who knows how many people over the course of likely decades as an iron fisted tyrant?


You don't. You can't. Even a single murder is something you can't really make amends for. But that doesn't mean you can't try. If Deus had somehow convinced Indinge to start doing good things with his life, more good things would have been done than if Deus had killed Indinge, so I consider the former a better outcome than the latter.




> And why should deus even bother trying to go that route as there is literally nothing in it for him?


There's not nothing in it for him. If Indinge could be persuaded to do good, the world as a whole would improve, and Deus would benefit from that. Admittedly, his benefit would be more or less infinitesimal - probably nothing more than a moment of satisfaction when he reads a report about Indinge's behavior - but given that he has effectively infinite resources it wouldn't cost him anything, so what's there for him to lose?




> And good lord, there is good, then there is irrationally saintly. And trying to redeem indinge and bring him into the light? Thats way outside of rational thought. Thats like... stereotypical archangel type talk. You dont have to be better than mr rogers to be good.


While I agree that one doesn't have to behave in the best possible fashion to qualify as good, that doesn't mean one shouldn't do so when one has the opportunity.

----------


## lord_khaine

> While I agree that one doesn't have to behave in the best possible fashion to qualify as good, that doesn't mean one shouldn't do so when one has the opportunity.


The argument can be made, that Deus actually did do that, when he arranged for a quick and fairly painless death for a mass murdering warlord?
I do think the world is a better place without him.

----------


## Radar

> The argument can be made, that Deus actually did do that, when he arranged for a quick and fairly painless death for a mass murdering warlord?
> I do think the world is a better place without him.


I think that you operate under an utilitarian idea of goodness (outcome and statistical happiness are the only metrices), while other people resort to different moral paradigms, where ends do not justify the means.

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## Vahnavoi

Everything Deus does and has done is questionable even under strict consequentalist Utilitarian framework because we don't actually know what utility he's working towards and we don't have real proof-of-work for his utility calculus beyond what amounts to "just trust me, bro". 

Even more, while he puts on air of extreme Utilitarian, we don't actually know if he is one. His supposed speech to those condemned to execution refers to consequentialism and morality versus ethics, but Vale conveniently skips over all details.

----------


## Shining Wrath

We still don't know the answer to the fundamental question: does Deus do good for others because he calculates (correctly) it results in more power for him, as he moves toward taking over the world? Or does he seek power, ultimately taking over the world, so that he can do good? Or maybe not do good, but prevent evil?

Second question: even if we assume the latter, that his intentions are ultimately good, he may very well be paving the road to hell with them; that is, he's not as smart and capable as he believes himself to be, and will his well-intentioned efforts to seize power will lead to catastrophe?

The problem with sacrificing democracy because the Great Leader is Great, is that the Great Leader can be replaced by the Dear Leader, who makes you say "Oh, Dear" on a regular basis. Once you set up an autocracy you have the problem of finding a worthy successor. The real-world history of monarchies gives us many examples of effective leaders whose sons or granddaughters were totally unworthy of the throne they inherited. "Dune" series, anyone?

Therefore, I argue that *any* autocracy, no matter the intentions of the autocrat, is inherently problematic and should be avoided, and that seeking autocratic power is inherently immoral. "Democracy is the worst system of government imaginable - until you look at all the others that have been tried". - Winston Churchill, who might be entitled to an opinion about autocrats.

EDIT: You may be about to say "Deus intends to live a very long time with various technologies". And I say "Maxima could kill him in seconds. For that matter, so could Halo with the teleport to deep space stunt. The Dear Leader just needs to find a Super Great Leader doesn't know about who is sufficiently lethal and pay that super's price".

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## Radar

> The problem with sacrificing democracy because the Great Leader is Great, is that the Great Leader can be replaced by the Dear Leader, who makes you say "Oh, Dear" on a regular basis. Once you set up an autocracy you have the problem of finding a worthy successor. The real-world history of monarchies gives us many examples of effective leaders whose sons or granddaughters were totally unworthy of the throne they inherited. "Dune" series, anyone?


Indeed. Although Dune might not be the best example as Leto was decidedly competent and executed his plan without problems. If he was good for the people, that is a different question and a whole topic on its own.

That being said, democracy might seem inefficient and riddled with many problems, but it is *consistently* bad, which is at the end of the day probably the most important thing and allows people to go about their lives and there is room for growth on a personal and business level.

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## Shining Wrath

> Indeed. Although Dune might not be the best example as Leto was decidedly competent and executed his plan without problems. If he was good for the people, that is a different question and a whole topic on its own.
> 
> That being said, democracy might seem inefficient and riddled with many problems, but it is *consistently* bad, which is at the end of the day probably the most important thing and allows people to go about their lives and there is room for growth on a personal and business level.


By "consistently bad" I take it you mean it offers stability and continuity, which is usually true. Until it isn't - if the system gets paralyzed and ignores important problems.

Book my dad had demonstrated the political spectrum this way (no actual political issues mentioned).
Imagine your town has an airport. Very important: assume nothing about the airport. It can be new, old, big, small, well-maintained, a wreck; anything's possible.

Liberals say a new airport is needed.
Conservatives say the airport is fine as it is.
Moderates want to improve the airport in some fashion.

In most times, this describes most people's politics, and depending on the condition of the airport, anyone can be right.

But there's the radicals.
The radical left wants to blow up the airport and replace it with a spaceport.
The radical right wants to blow up the airport and go back to using trains.

Note that both sets of radicals agree in blowing up the existing system and replacing it with something else.
The radical left wants to move toward an idealized (and possibly impractical) future.
The radical right wants to move toward an idealized (and possibly mis-remembered) past.

Deus is trying for radical left (an idealized future) using authoritarian techniques.

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## Radar

> By "consistently bad" I take it you mean it offers stability and continuity, which is usually true. Until it isn't - if the system gets paralyzed and ignores important problems.


Yes, that's what I meant - sluggish and incompetent in a predictable way. Catastrophic failures still happen - can't fully avoid that.




> Book my dad had demonstrated the political spectrum this way (no actual political issues mentioned).
> Imagine your town has an airport. Very important: assume nothing about the airport. It can be new, old, big, small, well-maintained, a wreck; anything's possible.
> 
> Liberals say a new airport is needed.
> Conservatives say the airport is fine as it is.
> Moderates want to improve the airport in some fashion.
> 
> In most times, this describes most people's politics, and depending on the condition of the airport, anyone can be right.
> 
> ...


I like the example very much: clear, to the point and does not lean in any particular direction. What book was it (title, author)?

I might only add that the radicals tend to not have precise plans beyond the blowing up phase unfortunately.

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## Shining Wrath

> Yes, that's what I meant - sluggish and incompetent in a predictable way. Catastrophic failures still happen - can't fully avoid that.
> 
> 
> I like the example very much: clear, to the point and does not lean in any particular direction. What book was it (title, author)?
> 
> I might only add that the radicals tend to not have precise plans beyond the blowing up phase unfortunately.


I do not remember; this was 30+ years ago. That's why the radical left wanted a spaceport, not high speed rail.

----------


## Mechalich

To move away from a political framing, one of the alternative problems with Deus' approach is that whether or not it might work in theory, it can't work in this comic simply because it would take too long to unfold. Deus has gone, over the course of just over a thousand comics, from ruling a city-state to ruling an averaged-sized nation-state. World conquest, even if he could do it, is something that would more strips than exist in the lifespan of the comic. This comic simply doesn't operate with a style or narrative scale capable of letting Deus' 4x dreams play out.

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## Radar

> To move away from a political framing, one of the alternative problems with Deus' approach is that whether or not it might work in theory, it can't work in this comic simply because it would take too long to unfold. Deus has gone, over the course of just over a thousand comics, from ruling a city-state to ruling an averaged-sized nation-state. World conquest, even if he could do it, is something that would more strips than exist in the lifespan of the comic. This comic simply doesn't operate with a style or narrative scale capable of letting Deus' 4x dreams play out.


Or maybe it is not the main story of the comics and is not meant to be finished within its span. It might be just a backdrop for other things to happen on. Like right now our gang traveled to Africa plot-wise in order for Maxima to have a rematch against someone from her past, who was comparable in power to her.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Or maybe it is not the main story of the comics and is not meant to be finished within its span. It might be just a backdrop for other things to happen on. Like right now our gang traveled to Africa plot-wise in order for Maxima to have a rematch against someone from her past, who was comparable in power to her.


Frankly I think things galactically might escalate faster then he anticipates and that turns into the problem with his plans. Well that and him being a low key monster. I hope not though because I don't want things to be so heavily focused on the galactic ****.

----------


## Keltest

> Frankly I think things galactically might escalate faster then he anticipates and that turns into the problem with his plans. Well that and him being a low key monster. I hope not though because I don't want things to be so heavily focused on the galactic ****.


Indeed. Deus' plans will almost certainly come to a halt when his expansion finally ticks off enough people, and big enough nations, that they will move against him out of principle instead of dancing to the strings of world improvement he promises. As soon as he hits a group with enough quality of life that they can afford to behave in a semi-arbitrary manner, he loses a lot of his ability to predict people because Deus isnt actually that much of a people person.

----------


## Mechalich

> Or maybe it is not the main story of the comics and is not meant to be finished within its span. It might be just a backdrop for other things to happen on. Like right now our gang traveled to Africa plot-wise in order for Maxima to have a rematch against someone from her past, who was comparable in power to her.


That's kind the broader point though.

First, it's not entirely clear that Grrlpower actually has a main story. Truthfully insofar as there is a plot is mostly seems to be an excuse to display unreasonable attractive people in unreasonably skimpy outfits without getting labelled as erotica (I don't blame Dave for this, there are very strong financial reasons to produce not-erotica even when what you actually want to do is write erotica). 

Second, if Deus' grand plan isn't going to actually go anywhere, why spend so much time on it? As the thread title makes clear, Grrlpower also has a tendency to run backstory and/or setting lore instead of actual story. This is probably a product of it not really having a story beyond Sydney's initial recruitment arc, but as a result the plot isn't a line so much as a snarled tangled of aborted threads.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Indeed. Deus' plans will almost certainly come to a halt when his expansion finally ticks off enough people, and big enough nations, that they will move against him out of principle instead of dancing to the strings of world improvement he promises. As soon as he hits a group with enough quality of life that they can afford to behave in a semi-arbitrary manner, he loses a lot of his ability to predict people because Deus isnt actually that much of a people person.


I think you overlooked key parts of Deus's plan.
He isnt initially going to do anything with anywhere but crappy parts of afrika that noone else with the power to oppose him care about. 
While the people with the power to oppose him is a rappidly shrinking list of major world powers. Who would rather seek trade benefits than ponder the 10-20 year issues of Deus's goals.

I also think your wrong about Deus's ability to predict things or play people.
He might behave like a goofball yeah. If lex Luther did that instead of mucking around with feuds or green power suits then i think he could accomplish a lot more. 
Instead as is Deus is seen like an excentric billionare with a pet state. Not a concern for anyone.

But he did engineer the conflict with Sciona to get the sky breaker.
And he did play the Alari so subtly only his secretary noticed.
As well as, of course, move from company, to small country, to decently sized country in a span of 10 years.
Without making anyone who matters care.

----------


## Keltest

> I think you overlooked key parts of Deus's plan.
> He isnt initially going to do anything with anywhere but crappy parts of afrika that noone else with the power to oppose him care about. 
> While the people with the power to oppose him is a rappidly shrinking list of major world powers. Who would rather seek trade benefits than ponder the 10-20 year issues of Deus's goals.
> 
> I also think your wrong about Deus's ability to predict things or play people.
> He might behave like a goofball yeah. If lex Luther did that instead of mucking around with feuds or green power suits then i think he could accomplish a lot more. 
> Instead as is Deus is seen like an excentric billionare with a pet state. Not a concern for anyone.
> 
> But he did engineer the conflict with Sciona to get the sky breaker.
> ...


Except the US and ARCHON are caring, right now. People going "huh, this guy is invading sovereign nations with an army of literal demons. Lets take a closer look at that." is kind of the current reason for them being in Deus' lands in the first place.

----------


## Radar

> Except the US and ARCHON are caring, right now. People going "huh, this guy is invading sovereign nations with an army of literal demons. Lets take a closer look at that." is kind of the current reason for them being in Deus' lands in the first place.


And this is exactly why he has a trade offer that the in-comics US simple will not be able to refuse - he is making himself too useful to depose. Despite all the risks with leaving him unchecked, whichever global superpower takes his offer first, will have a serious advantage over the others. If for example US decided to move against Deus, another global superpower would back him up to get that shielding tech among other things Deus has for trade. Letting Maxima and by extension the US government know about the secret behind superpowers is also part of that. Getting details on that will most likely be more important than those futuristic fighter jets with shielding. Quite many countries would let Dues do whatever in Africa just to get their hands on the know-how of eventually making superheroes.

There are some interesting examples in history where a small country can leverage the feud between much bigger countries to its own advantage. For obvious reasons I will not discuss those here.

----------


## halfeye

> That's kind the broader point though.
> 
> First, it's not entirely clear that Grrlpower actually has a main story. Truthfully insofar as there is a plot is mostly seems to be an excuse to display unreasonable attractive people in unreasonably skimpy outfits without getting labelled as erotica (I don't blame Dave for this, there are very strong financial reasons to produce not-erotica even when what you actually want to do is write erotica). 
> 
> Second, if Deus' grand plan isn't going to actually go anywhere, why spend so much time on it? As the thread title makes clear, Grrlpower also has a tendency to run backstory and/or setting lore instead of actual story. This is probably a product of it not really having a story beyond Sydney's initial recruitment arc, but as a result the plot isn't a line so much as a snarled tangled of aborted threads.


Grrl Powah is the Wandering Inn with pictures!  :Small Big Grin:   :Small Tongue:

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## Dragonus45

> Grrl Powah is the Wandering Inn with pictures!


Those are fighting words right there.

----------


## Keltest

> And this is exactly why he has a trade offer that the in-comics US simple will not be able to refuse - he is making himself too useful to depose. Despite all the risks with leaving him unchecked, whichever global superpower takes his offer first, will have a serious advantage over the others. If for example US decided to move against Deus, another global superpower would back him up to get that shielding tech among other things Deus has for trade. Letting Maxima and by extension the US government know about the secret behind superpowers is also part of that. Getting details on that will most likely be more important than those futuristic fighter jets with shielding. Quite many countries would let Dues do whatever in Africa just to get their hands on the know-how of eventually making superheroes.
> 
> There are some interesting examples in history where a small country can leverage the feud between much bigger countries to its own advantage. For obvious reasons I will not discuss those here.


Well thats what I mean when I say that he's starting to agitate people who can afford to act somewhat arbitrarily. The US CAN refuse it. It would be illogical to do so, but the leadership has the capacity and wiggle room to act illogically without crashing their country. So Deus cant actually be sure what they'll do.

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## Radar

> Well thats what I mean when I say that he's starting to agitate people who can afford to act somewhat arbitrarily. The US CAN refuse it. It would be illogical to do so, but the leadership has the capacity and wiggle room to act illogically without crashing their country. So Deus cant actually be sure what they'll do.


That's true, but if he wants to make it big, it was inevitable at some point and any kind of power play is always a high risk, high reward game. The thing is, other superpowers are pretty sure to step in, if US would move directly against Dues - just to get a piece of the most valuable cake on Earth. There is also no way to tell, if Deus does not have some insider information on what are US plans concerning him and Galynt situation. After all, he is an important hardware provider for Archon (and possibly other agencies), which gives him valuable contacts.

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## sihnfahl

> just to get a piece of the most valuable cake on Earth.


That depends on which is more valuable.  The fact that he has access to Alien Tech ... or the fact that he has a heck of a lot of supers working for him?

If there's an invasion, you better have a good mind control thing or the supers be extremely mercenary, cause those supers might just be a bit miffed you got in the way of a Good Thing For Them.

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## Radar

> That depends on which is more valuable.  The fact that he has access to Alien Tech ... or the fact that he has a heck of a lot of supers working for him?
> 
> If there's an invasion, you better have a good mind control thing or the supers be extremely mercenary, cause those supers might just be a bit miffed you got in the way of a Good Thing For Them.


The cake is the information, where supers come from. I assume Dues knows how to at the very least identify them and from that is a direct path to inventing gene tweaking for making supers. But to be honest: all of the above.

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## sihnfahl

> The cake is the information, where supers come from. I assume Dues knows how to at the very least identify them and from that is a direct path to inventing gene tweaking for making supers. But to be honest: all of the above.


I believe that was already covered.

It was in Super DNA.  When you looked at it in a specific way... it shows that it's a key.

Deus knows how to detect supers because it's literally in their DNA to be super.  He hasn't figured out WHAT the powers granted are just from the DNA, but he can detect supers that way.

And that's something they'd want to keep under wraps if possible.  If they ever figured out how to manipulate DNA's multidimensional projection....

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## Shining Wrath

The problem with selling information to the highest bidder is that after you sell it, you still have it. How does the US know that Deus isn't selling the same info, or info that leads to the same discoveries, to China / Russia / Egypt / Monaco?

If this were a darker toned comic, Maxima would already be using secure comms to reach the Pentagon, and Operation Seize or Destroy Every Copy of the Info Including the One in Deus' Brain would be in the planning stages with a D-Day & H-Hour of tonight.

As it isn't that sort of comic, this will probably result in an epic battle scene with Halo saving Maxima, and then we'll move on to something else that is shiny.

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## lord_khaine

> Except the US and ARCHON are caring, right now. People going "huh, this guy is invading sovereign nations with an army of literal demons. Lets take a closer look at that." is kind of the current reason for them being in Deus' lands in the first place.


No, not really. Maxima is just a Colonel. And the combat leader of Arcswat.
She isnt in a position to take choices on this. So far we dont have any signs that the actually relevant people care about what happens in afrika.
And why should they now when they have not done earlier.




> That's true, but if he wants to make it big, it was inevitable at some point and any kind of power play is always a high risk, high reward game. The thing is, other superpowers are pretty sure to step in, if US would move directly against Dues - just to get a piece of the most valuable cake on Earth. There is also no way to tell, if Deus does not have some insider information on what are US plans concerning him and Galynt situation. After all, he is an important hardware provider for Archon (and possibly other agencies), which gives him valuable contacts.


Case is. Deus has information thats just to valuable to make it worth antagonizing him over a few bits of land 95% of the population could not accurately point out on a map. 
Also i assume he own enough senators to ensure no vote to get in his way gets through.




> If this were a darker toned comic, Maxima would already be using secure comms to reach the Pentagon, and Operation Seize or Destroy Every Copy of the Info Including the One in Deus' Brain would be in the planning stages with a D-Day & H-Hour of tonight.


Nah. That mission would have to low odds of success. 
Initially i think its a given that the only reason Deus allow Max to be alone with him is an extensive psychic profile of her.
That leaves him certain about how morally inflexible she is. 

Besides that. The problem with information is its impossible to know if you got every single copy. 
And basically impossible to prevent an emergency sending of all the info to every major power should something happen to Deus.

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## Shining Wrath

> No, not really. Maxima is just a Colonel. And the combat leader of Arcswat.
> She isnt in a position to take choices on this. So far we dont have any signs that the actually relevant people care about what happens in afrika.
> And why should they now when they have not done earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> Case is. Deus has information thats just to valuable to make it worth antagonizing him over a few bits of land 95% of the population could not accurately point out on a map. 
> Also i assume he own enough senators to ensure no vote to get in his way gets through.
> 
> ...


Remember that Arclyte is just as good as Arcswat. They can, in fact, be sure they've got every copy, because they are super-techs. Plus if there's nothing left of Deus' complex except tiny, tiny pieces of flaming rubble, and yes you are good enough to know you've found every single hidden room (even without alien tech SAR is a thing), you've got it all.

----------


## Radar

> Remember that Arclyte is just as good as Arcswat. They can, in fact, be sure they've got every copy, because they are super-techs. Plus if there's nothing left of Deus' complex except tiny, tiny pieces of flaming rubble, and yes you are good enough to know you've found every single hidden room (even without alien tech SAR is a thing), you've got it all.


That's assuming all the copies were in that one place instead of some remote, anonymous data center or a safe deposit box for that matter.

----------


## Mechalich

The real weakness of Deus' plans is that his entire operation has a single point of failure: himself. While he seems to be good at building durable institutions, it simply hasn't been long enough for Galytn to sustain itself without him at the helm. It would collapse back into corruption almost instantly should he vanish. 

He has guards, of course, and I suspect he also has some sort of contingency-style effect to teleport himself to a safe location if he really deems it necessary, but it's clearly a vulnerability. In fact, the comic is aware of this, since that's presumably what the current assault is attempting to achieve. A bunch of helicopters can't occupy squat, but they can launch a kill or capture strike.

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## Shining Wrath

> That's assuming all the copies were in that one place instead of some remote, anonymous data center or a safe deposit box for that matter.


Both of which put the most valuable information in the world, in a place where Deus no longer controls it. Banks have keys to safe deposit boxes, system administrators have access to everything in the data center.

This information is worth billions or trillions, and you're going to trust some anonymous flunky?

----------


## Traab

> Both of which put the most valuable information in the world, in a place where Deus no longer controls it. Banks have keys to safe deposit boxes, system administrators have access to everything in the data center.
> 
> This information is worth billions or trillions, and you're going to trust some anonymous flunky?


I mean, I think the point is to ensure its spread should he be double crossed right? I dont think it would be that hard to make contacts who would be willing to do that sort of thing. Heck, all he needs is a sort of deadmans switch on a server housed in some random location where if he doesnt send a signal every so often its instantly uploaded to the internet On thousands of sites like a viral wave and everyone on earth gets to see how it works, so the back stabbers lose most of their advantage. He has teleporters so it wouldnt be hard for him to make a quick trip to timbuktu to appear in a sealed office building with no windows to type in his command with nobody being the wiser.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> I mean, I think the point is to ensure its spread should he be double crossed right? I dont think it would be that hard to make contacts who would be willing to do that sort of thing. Heck, all he needs is a sort of deadmans switch on a server housed in some random location where if he doesnt send a signal every so often its instantly uploaded to the internet On thousands of sites like a viral wave and everyone on earth gets to see how it works, so the back stabbers lose most of their advantage. He has teleporters so it wouldnt be hard for him to make a quick trip to timbuktu to appear in a sealed office building with no windows to type in his command with nobody being the wiser.


So then all someone who wants the tech has to do is cut off Galyta's internet. That's probably surprisingly easy to do; the international internet is measured in hundreds of cables, not millions, and poor African countries may only have a couple of connections to overseas.

----------


## Radar

> So then all someone who wants the tech has to do is cut off Galyta's internet. That's probably surprisingly easy to do; the international internet is measured in hundreds of cables, not millions, and poor African countries may only have a couple of connections to overseas.


The trick is to have it exclusively. If you trigger the failsafe, everyone would get this information and you will not get any advantage.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> The trick is to have it exclusively. If you trigger the failsafe, everyone would get this information and you will not get any advantage.


US: pays Deus $B for tech!
China: pays Deus $B for tech!
Russia: says "screw that!", gets tech for free, US & China are out $B for nothing.
EDIT: Or go further down the power scale, and after Russia, EU, Japan,, et cetera, have all shelled out, one of Deus' poor neighbors decides their only chance at competing is to cut a wire. These cables are often underwater, a scuba diver with bolt cutters who knows what they are doing can cut a small country off from the world. So, OK, Deus probably has mutant ill-tempered sea bass with lasers guarding his, but enough guys with bolt cutters can still get one through.

----------


## Ibrinar

A dead man switch doesn't have to be happen fast, otherwise a simple blackout would release it. Setting the countdown to a few days makes it pretty hard to trigger it without either taking him prisoner or killing him.

Though it does create motivation for those down the scale who don't have it to kill him, but he can't keep everyone from trying to kill him so some of the big ones would be worthwhile. And just not making the existence public and only telling specific powers about it could create enough ambiguity to make killing him to trigger it less attractive.

----------


## Traab

> So then all someone who wants the tech has to do is cut off Galyta's internet. That's probably surprisingly easy to do; the international internet is measured in hundreds of cables, not millions, and poor African countries may only have a couple of connections to overseas.


I didnt say it would be in deus territory, in fact it would be rather stupid if it were. Think voldemort if he were intelligent. Instead of focusing on legendary relics and keeping them in meaningful locations, he turned random objects into horcruxes and distributed them all across europe and maybe even further? When you literally have the power to TELEPORT, distance becomes less of a fuss and expands your range immensely. Going from looking for a needle in a haystack, to looking for a needle thats in some pile of hay somewhere in the midwest. If deus had a small bunker located in, I dunno, new zealand built in secret, he could have opal teleport him there once a week or whatever to put in the dead mans code. Depending on how specific her knowledge has to be of where she is portaling to she might not even have to know. Or he could have a dozen or so trips that are faked so even if she gets captured they cant target his secret bunker easily. 

And you cant even pretend that this isnt the sort of convoluted backup measure he would take.

----------


## The Glyphstone

It seem like people are getting confused on Hypothetical Deus's motives here; this started by someone saying that killing him would keep the secret of super creation exclusive, and the various Deadman failsafes proposed since then were ways to foil that.

----------


## Radar

> It seem like people are getting confused on Hypothetical Deus's motives here; this started by someone saying that killing him would keep the secret of super creation exclusive, and the various Deadman failsafes proposed since then were ways to foil that.


Suddenly this seems as relevant in the discussion.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> I didnt say it would be in deus territory, in fact it would be rather stupid if it were. Think voldemort if he were intelligent. Instead of focusing on legendary relics and keeping them in meaningful locations, he turned random objects into horcruxes and distributed them all across europe and maybe even further? When you literally have the power to TELEPORT, distance becomes less of a fuss and expands your range immensely. Going from looking for a needle in a haystack, to looking for a needle thats in some pile of hay somewhere in the midwest. If deus had a small bunker located in, I dunno, new zealand built in secret, he could have opal teleport him there once a week or whatever to put in the dead mans code. Depending on how specific her knowledge has to be of where she is portaling to she might not even have to know. Or he could have a dozen or so trips that are faked so even if she gets captured they cant target his secret bunker easily. 
> 
> And you cant even pretend that this isnt the sort of convoluted backup measure he would take.


And now you have a bunker that is not under his military's control that can be discovered and the data extracted. Remember, we're talking about the most important secrets in the world. I don't know if you've ever had a security clearance, but this is NOT a viable plan. In a world where there's supers doing super stuff, the idea that Dabbler / ArcLight / Twilight Council / Russia / China / James Bond can't find your hidden bunker that you visit on the regular is a bad bet.

----------


## Traab

> And now you have a bunker that is not under his military's control that can be discovered and the data extracted. Remember, we're talking about the most important secrets in the world. I don't know if you've ever had a security clearance, but this is NOT a viable plan. In a world where there's supers doing super stuff, the idea that Dabbler / ArcLight / Twilight Council / Russia / China / James Bond can't find your hidden bunker that you visit on the regular is a bad bet.


And now we go the other way where nothing can ever be secret because of powers so why bother even trying to sell the info? Clearly the big brains of each nation/faction have already found and gotten their copy. Going to security through obscurity is absolutely a viable plan for keeping something secret in this type of world. Cant find it if they dont even know what to look for. We are currently seeing the issues with having the info in a known stronghold, you have to be powerful enough to keep a grip on it. But them having to find a random server in a random country that they have no idea if you have ever even been to is a very different matter. Thats assuming it even has to be left on earth. We have no idea what sort of off world connections he has made, or deals with the devil for "in case of disappearance" And that uncertainty is a form of armor itself.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> And now we go the other way where nothing can ever be secret because of powers so why bother even trying to sell the info? Clearly the big brains of each nation/faction have already found and gotten their copy. Going to security through obscurity is absolutely a viable plan for keeping something secret in this type of world. Cant find it if they dont even know what to look for. We are currently seeing the issues with having the info in a known stronghold, you have to be powerful enough to keep a grip on it. But them having to find a random server in a random country that they have no idea if you have ever even been to is a very different matter. Thats assuming it even has to be left on earth. We have no idea what sort of off world connections he has made, or deals with the devil for "in case of disappearance" And that uncertainty is a form of armor itself.


The more copies, the more risk. The more "partners", the more risk. A limited number of copies all under your government's physical control is the only thing that has ever worked in the real world. Sometimes government can be extended to allies, e.g., D-Day both US and UK knew what was happening but managed to avoid the beans being spilled in a way Germany could use.

But you do raise a valid point - once you've sold the information to country X, country X can and probably will share with countries they view as allies, perhaps for a price.

----------


## lord_khaine

The difference being that in a government a lot of people have to know.
Just for a start all the people involved in the decision. And assistants. The people who have to carry out instructions. Advisors.

Here its basically just Deus who need to know.
And with the resources he has available. Then i cant see any way except full on mind control to prevent a dead man switch made by Deus.
He has to many resources scattered all over the globe.

----------


## Radar

> He has to many resources scattered all over the globe.


And by now probably beyond that as well.

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah. I mean he could have had a cache set up on the freaking moon with a powerful radio.
He has a portal device now. 

He could have a trusted hench person like Vale have instructions to trigger it under certain conditions.
He could have people he didnt know, and they didnt know, were carrying hypnotic triggers that unlocked information about decryption keys. 
The options are endless. And you just have to miss 1 and its out.

Thats why i think Deus is still quite secure. He has not annoyed anyone important.

----------


## Traab

I will admit though that the risk level of everything is higher in this setting simply due to the random nature of powers, the existence of the supernatural, and of course sci fi alien tech and races with abilities you cant possibly know all of. But that axe swings in both directions. Its easier to find because there may be a person working for arc light who has divination skills at max level. They can toss a pig carcass in a shredder, and read the drippings to find "anything deus is hiding" Toss a collection of fish bones down a flight of stairs and read the pattern to figure out what dangers they need to be aware of today, etc. But then again, deus may have a lock box made of some alien material that blocks all mystical and scientific scans even dabbler would only be able to find if she was specifically looking in a small area for that exact material that holds his MAD plan protocols thats stored on the back side of a black hole because *mumble mumble aetherium* or whatever. Because this setting is wide open for limitless potential in finding hiding protecting and taking things.

----------


## The Glyphstone

We're also evaluating Deus right now based on his resources alone, as if he were an otherwise normal person. With the undefined boundaries of his super-intelligence, it's not out of bounds that he has already 4-D chessmastered the exact limits of where and how far he can push before any specific adversary would be motivated to act against him, though the current conflict does show he isnt outright omniscient to the point of knowing exactly what form of attack it will take. So I'd suspect at the very least he knows where the lines are and builds his schemes and backups and deadman switches accordingly.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

The problem with criticising Deus's plans, really, is that he's a super genius being written by somebody who is not a super genius. Most problems you see, if they're not intended to be plot points, will be papered over with "well of course Deus thought of that and accounted for it".

----------


## The Glyphstone

Pretty much. Which usually tends to be the issue with any super-genius type characters in any media.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Which is why I have problems with puzzles in D&D; the person playing the Int 8 barbarian figures stuff out as readily as the Int 20 wizard. Having said that, I'm about to unleash a whole bunch of them because the fools are going to venture into a fae-ruled forest.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Which is why I have problems with puzzles in D&D; the person playing the Int 8 barbarian figures stuff out as readily as the Int 20 wizard. Having said that, I'm about to unleash a whole bunch of them because the fools are going to venture into a fae-ruled forest.


How I do it is have the party, out of character, figure puzzles out collectively. Then, in-character, it's the characters with high Int and Wis who figure it out.

And if the guy playing the Int 8 Barbarian is the one who solves it OOC, I'm giving him Inspiration.

----------


## Shining Wrath

In the real world, a colonel would not engage on one side of a military battle without permission. Not even, or maybe even especially, if they had a personal grudge against one side.

But this is cool and I look forward to the epic throwdown between Max and Darude. And he is attacking civilians (and everyone else in the area).

Panel 2, it looks like Tom is wielding a ginormous glaive against some guys with assault rifles. I wonder how vulnerable Tom is to bullets? What if they are silver bullets?

----------


## Keltest

> In the real world, a colonel would not engage on one side of a military battle without permission. Not even, or maybe even especially, if they had a personal grudge against one side.
> 
> But this is cool and I look forward to the epic throwdown between Max and Darude. And he is attacking civilians (and everyone else in the area).
> 
> Panel 2, it looks like Tom is wielding a ginormous glaive against some guys with assault rifles. I wonder how vulnerable Tom is to bullets? What if they are silver bullets?


Its not entirely unreasonable for Max to assume that Darude is here specifically with the intention of attacking her, in which case absent explicit orders to disengage I'm pretty sure she has the authority to decide to defend herself.

And frankly, even if he isnt there for her, he's being so indiscriminate she can probably still claim she was simply engaged by an unknown hostile and was defending herself. Its not like she can politely identify herself as American and ask him to please not hit her team with the giant sandstorm of death while the leave the country.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Its not entirely unreasonable for Max to assume that Darude is here specifically with the intention of attacking her, in which case absent explicit orders to disengage I'm pretty sure she has the authority to decide to defend herself.


Lets be honest here, she is a super hero. Her rank doesn't mean the same things that it might in a more traditional command structure, and going out to personally punch someone who has been presented as her actual factual _Nemesis_ when he shows up with an army to attack the building she is in would likely qualify as self defense, but the more specific concern would be Archons rules of engagement. We never got the details for that kind of thing outside of explicitly stating they are outside the scope of Posse Comitatus, and they are meant to be a domestic facing law enforcement org so they might not have clear rules for what to do here. Clearly Max's orders on the ground to not engage outside of specific conditions would override all that anyways, but she herself would have the latitude to ignore her mission own specific orders so long as she stayed on the correct end of the law and Archons general rules.

----------


## Kantaki

With a super close enough to Maxima's level to have survived her doing her best to kill him that explosion was hardly a attack anyway.
More like a (relatively*) friendly greeting.

*They are still enemies after all.

----------


## Dragonus45

> With a super close enough to Maxima's level to have survived her doing her best to kill him that explosion was hardly a attack anyway.
> More like a (relatively*) friendly greeting.
> 
> *They are still enemies after all.


I'm betting that much like Dabbler when he fought her to a standstill it was more about cheating the fight then being able to actually match her. Ten imaginary internet dollars he is just sitting under the sand somewhere relatively safe while his doom death sand storm tries to wear her down.

----------


## Traab

> I'm betting that much like Dabbler when he fought her to a standstill it was more about cheating the fight then being able to actually match her. Ten imaginary internet dollars he is just sitting under the sand somewhere relatively safe while his doom death sand storm tries to wear her down.


Or he is basically Crocodile from One Piece and so long as his entire sand infused body isnt obliterated, he can recover from just about anything she does. I do wonder if this might also fall under old orders as well. As was said, this is someone she has fought to the presumed death before, and here he is again. Were her orders to engage this particular target ever revoked?  :Small Big Grin:  But yeah, this is one of those things thats probably a violation of the rules in a variety of ways. As was said, they are generally speaking, an internal super police force. LAPD should not be arresting people in mozambique. Yes, even if they did spot some criminals doing criminal things. By all rights, the entire arcswat crew should have bubbled up and left. This is just a whole pile of diplomatic incidents and laws broken.

----------


## lord_khaine

The way the seemingly sentient sand cloud has eyes does at least leave it as a posibility this guy is like Crocodille, or marvels Sandman.
Though its also possible its a bluff of some sort. 

While yeah. LAPD does not have any authorithy outside of USA.
But one could assume this would fall somewhat in beneath general rules of self defence.
Especially when they are in the path of the attack. 

Well. And of course it also helps its likely easier to arrest Superman than to arrest Max.
(more likely Superman will play along)

----------


## Dragonus45

Yea I hadn't even considering the "I am the sand now" method of tanking Max's blasts. Also the LAPD comparison is off, they are a military branch not just police officers. That comes with a set of specific international laws and rules that govern them that wouldn't apply to the LAPD.

----------


## Mechalich

The key issue with Archon's involvement depends on the nature of the conflict. Specifically, if this is actually an attempt by some sovereign state to attack Galytn or whether it's just a bunch of militaristic opportunists employed via plausible deniable means. In the former case this is a war between two sovereign nations and Archon's intervention on behalf of one side (as opposed to simply secure US assets and escape the combat zone) represents an extremely clear act of war. In the latter case, this is just terrorism, and Archon is simply rendering aid to the local government to suppress terrorists, which can be easily excused given some legal massaging - specifically, Maxima would need to get retroactive approval from Deus and that General she reports to for this action, but if she actually manages to capture/kill Darude, that's almost certainly forthcoming.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well they have clearly failed to identify themselves or declare war? 
So a decent argument can be made for "looked like terrorists, were attacking civilians"

And Max already did get Deus implicit approval with the gas mask he lend her.

----------


## Traab

> The way the seemingly sentient sand cloud has eyes does at least leave it as a posibility this guy is like Crocodille, or marvels Sandman.
> Though its also possible its a bluff of some sort. 
> 
> While yeah. LAPD does not have any authorithy outside of USA.
> But one could assume this would fall somewhat in beneath general rules of self defence.
> Especially when they are in the path of the attack. 
> 
> Well. And of course it also helps its likely easier to arrest Superman than to arrest Max.
> (more likely Superman will play along)


The self defense thing is a bit wonky, because, at least in the states, there is a wide variety of what constitutes self defense. For example, the duty to retreat. In some states you cant use self defense as a claim in court if you had the opportunity to get out of there and didnt take it. And considering the fact that both max and sydney are capable of evacuating at several times the speed of sound, including carrying the rest of their team.... It would probably hold up in this scenario overall, unless there was some sort of vindictive prosecution going on, but still. Upon further research, only 15 states have a duty to retreat law, the rest have variations of castle doctrine or stand your ground meaning no you dont have to run away, you can defend yourself without being cornered first. So yeah, probably be ok overall with self defense, thought more states had duty to retreat than that making it more of a coin toss on a federal level.

And Dragon, yes they are also military, but they are a primarily internal military/police group. Hence ARCSWAT instead of ARCARINES, or ARCFORCE, or ARCMY.  :Small Big Grin:  But then, its left kinda up in the air the specific limits and rules they abide by, probably intentionally just for scenarios like this so we cant go "Hey! According to comic 675, they legally cant do blah blah blah, so why are they here?!" Technically supers arent supposed to be deployed in other nations, but thats primarily talking about invasions, probably not defending an area as a visiting super if it should be attacked while you are there. 

Overall I get the feeling that even if technically max is in the wrong here and they should have bugged out, nothing bad will happen because deus is probably happy max is doing this and will be lodging a formal thanks, and the american government doesnt want to poke their most powerful reliable super for fighting one of her biggest threats when given the chance.

----------


## Radar

> Overall I get the feeling that even if technically max is in the wrong here and they should have bugged out, nothing bad will happen because deus is probably happy max is doing this and will be lodging a formal thanks, and the american government doesnt want to poke their most powerful reliable super for fighting one of her biggest threats when given the chance.


Pretty much my thoughts on this. If the country, on which terrain it is all happening, welcomes help instead of huffing over meddling in internal affairs, necessary paperwork and legal way will be taken care of even if some of it would have to be done retroactively.

----------


## lord_khaine

Is it even technically so? is also the argument to be made that Max's crew were spread to far out to be evacuated in time. 
Of course in the end it hardly matters. Since the relevant parts are Deus's laws.

Whats perhaps more interesting is the comming fight?
Look like it will be a slapfight? Neither side can really touch the other right now.

----------


## Traab

Id imagine thats going to change soonish, after all, there is a reason she remembers this guy, and somehow I doubt it was because she wasted 8 hours dogfighting with him only to get nowhere. It IS possible this is a stamina fight where the first person to get tired loses. Like, it takes energy to blast, and energy to reform. Whose move is more efficient?  As a random point, it occurs to me that maxima might be vulnerable to a deus double cross right now. Unlike most of the other gear he and his company provide to archon, this one hasnt been examined before use. I could see a sleep gas pellet get released inside her mask at a bad moment dropping her like a stone. Im not saying he WILL do that, just pointing out the window of opportunity is there. And with the confusion of a sentient sandstorm and enemy merc attack going on, it would be childs play to make her vanish.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Id imagine thats going to change soonish, after all, there is a reason she remembers this guy, and somehow I doubt it was because she wasted 8 hours dogfighting with him only to get nowhere. It IS possible this is a stamina fight where the first person to get tired loses. Like, it takes energy to blast, and energy to reform. Whose move is more efficient?  As a random point, it occurs to me that maxima might be vulnerable to a deus double cross right now. Unlike most of the other gear he and his company provide to archon, this one hasnt been examined before use. I could see a sleep gas pellet get released inside her mask at a bad moment dropping her like a stone. Im not saying he WILL do that, just pointing out the window of opportunity is there. And with the confusion of a sentient sandstorm and enemy merc attack going on, it would be childs play to make her vanish.


Deus does have an unhealthy fascination with bedding Max, so he might try something like that; but she's an extremely difficult person to keep as a prisoner, and an even more difficult person to coerce into sex. I'm guessing that he's not going to try it. I think we're going to see Halo save Max somehow, either by use of Halo powers, or by use of trope knowledge.

----------


## Traab

> Deus does have an unhealthy fascination with bedding Max, so he might try something like that; but she's an extremely difficult person to keep as a prisoner, and an even more difficult person to coerce into sex. I'm guessing that he's not going to try it. I think we're going to see Halo save Max somehow, either by use of Halo powers, or by use of trope knowledge.


I wasnt thinking about sex. I was just thinking that if he had any nefarious schemes in mind that required maxima removed from the board for a time, that this would be a great opportunity, and is totally something he would be able to arrange. Either directly as in "Yo Darude, got a job for you" Or indirectly as in, "Lets see, I made the announcement on x date, which means archon will send a representative, and its about 99.53% certain maxima will be a part of it. Ive also been poking the hornets nest in darudes territory so I expect a response" yadda yadda. And yeah, I could totally see Halo going, 
"Yo Anvil! Toss that water tanker truck at Darude! Max! Blow the tanker truck!" 
/a couple hours later
"So Sydney, what made you think that would work?"
"Comic/anime logic. Dudes made of and can control sand. Muds not sand, should weaken him or even trap him."

----------


## Keltest

> I wasnt thinking about sex. I was just thinking that if he had any nefarious schemes in mind that required maxima removed from the board for a time, that this would be a great opportunity, and is totally something he would be able to arrange. Either directly as in "Yo Darude, got a job for you" Or indirectly as in, "Lets see, I made the announcement on x date, which means archon will send a representative, and its about 99.53% certain maxima will be a part of it. Ive also been poking the hornets nest in darudes territory so I expect a response" yadda yadda. And yeah, I could totally see Halo going, 
> "Yo Anvil! Toss that water tanker truck at Darude! Max! Blow the tanker truck!" 
> /a couple hours later
> "So Sydney, what made you think that would work?"
> "Comic/anime logic. Dudes made of and can control sand. Muds not sand, should weaken him or even trap him."


Actually, thats not a terrible idea. Even if mud is still sand, now he also has to haul all that water around with it too, and water is heavy.

----------


## Ibrinar

> Pretty much my thoughts on this. If the country, on which terrain it is all happening, welcomes help instead of huffing over meddling in internal affairs, necessary paperwork and legal way will be taken care of even if some of it would have to be done retroactively.


I don't think the laws are the problem there more the headlines and international relations. 

"Is Africa's newest dictator allied with the USA? Or an direct agent? 

A counter strike against Deus expansion was just foiled by a team of Americas strongest supers. Deus, an US citizen, has taken over an kingdom and is now expanding it via military force. The USA has been denying any connection, but these newest development leads to questions whether he is truly an independent despot or the US government is engaging in colonialism by proxy."

Or something like that.

----------


## Dragonus45

> The self defense thing is a bit wonky, because, at least in the states, there is a wide variety of what constitutes self defense.


This is a question of international law, which has very different standards for "self defense", this is also why them being a military branch is important even if they are technically meant to be aimed inward as an organization.

----------


## Traab

> Actually, thats not a terrible idea. Even if mud is still sand, now he also has to haul all that water around with it too, and water is heavy.


A part of me wonders if he is like concretia and his spirit can inhabit sand, or if he is like crocodile and just IS sand as well as able to manipulate it. There are so many interesting potential outcomes of turning sand to mud depending on how his powers work. It could expose the real him if he cant inhabit mud for example, leaving him open to attack. Or, if he is a logia style of power, turning his entire form to mud could literally trap him in place, unable to move or escape or do anything till he dries out. If he can manipulate sand from a distance, then soaking him would be a temp fix, as he brings in fresh sand to basically dry out the soaked area.

----------


## halfeye

> And yeah, I could totally see Halo going, 
> "Yo Anvil! Toss that water tanker truck at Darude! Max! Blow the tanker truck!" 
> /a couple hours later
> "So Sydney, what made you think that would work?"
> "Comic/anime logic. Dudes made of and can control sand. Muds not sand, should weaken him or even trap him."


Mud is really not sand, it's not wet sand either. There are beaches near here that are sand on a slope for about a couple of hundred yards at the top, then mud for miles, Mud is sticky horrible stuff, with a much finer grain size than sand, and you wouldn't mistake the two.

----------


## lord_khaine

> "Is Africa's newest dictator allied with the USA? Or an direct agent?
> 
> A counter strike against Deus expansion was just foiled by a team of Americas strongest supers. Deus, an US citizen, has taken over an kingdom and is now expanding it via military force. The USA has been denying any connection, but these newest development leads to questions whether he is truly an independent despot or the US government is engaging in colonialism by proxy."


This is likely what should be the actually biggest isue with Max engaging Daruda now.
Good point.




> "Yo Anvil! Toss that water tanker truck at Darude! Max! Blow the tanker truck!"
> /a couple hours later
> "So Sydney, what made you think that would work?"
> "Comic/anime logic. Dudes made of and can control sand. Muds not sand, should weaken him or even trap him."


To be technical that just gets you wet sand. Mud is made of earth and water. 
And im also not certain a tanker truck would be anything but a drop in the ocean when it comes to a sandstorm of this size.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> This is likely what should be the actually biggest isue with Max engaging Daruda now.
> Good point.
> 
> 
> 
> To be technical that just gets you wet sand. Mud is made of earth and water. 
> And im also not certain a tanker truck would be anything but a drop in the ocean when it comes to a sandstorm of this size.


It think the best you can hope for is to gradually remove sand from the storm, a few hundred pounds at a time.

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah and in turn, its quite possible he can just pick up fresh sand. Its desert all over the place.
I guess in the end we dont know enough about his powers.

----------


## Mechalich

> Yeah and in turn, its quite possible he can just pick up fresh sand. Its desert all over the place.


It's actually savannah. 

Galytn's capital is supposed to be in the southernmost portion of Malawi. Darude and co. arrive by coming over the Matundwe Range to the west, and in the shot in #1053 where Darude is initially shown, there's an appropriate amount of green vegetation in the foreground. Admittedly, the area where this fight is taking place appears to be quite open, probably because it's either been cleared for industrial development or Supers target practice, but the nearest actual desert is the Kalahari, hundreds of miles to the west.

----------


## lord_khaine

With the place i meant afrika.
But perhaps alternatively i should have mentioned there are sand all over the place.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> With the place i meant afrika.
> But perhaps alternatively i should have mentioned there are sand all over the place.


There might be some sand down by the river, but I think this part of Africa is more likely to feature grassy prairie. It's Kansas, not the Sahara.

Of course, Darude may be able to use any loose particles. Dirt, pollen, shredded bits of pitiful mortals, all grist for his mill.

----------


## lord_khaine

Im not a soil expert. But im decently certain grassy prarie has a rather high sand content in its soil?

----------


## Traab

He could also be like Garra from naruto and be able to grind down stone to make more sand wherever he goes. Being in a desert just saves him a little setup time. He could fight you on the rocky mountains and be at full saharah sandstorm levels of material in a few minutes.

----------


## lord_khaine

Relevant point. We just dont actually know enough about him.
Heck he could actually be a geokineticist and just use sand for theme.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

It is very smart to not let anyone know the full extent of your powers. Archon does that, even - lots of them have classified powers.

----------


## Traab

Well there we go, now we know more or less how his powers work. Or at least the win condition max needed last time. She needs to slag his sand and all the sand nearby. Sounds like to me she has to pull a superman in the cartoon where he fought an army of doomsday clones with the amazons and went wide angle heat beams to destroy them all at once. But that may be an issue of not enough power to do while maintaining her defenses at an acceptable level.  That being said, we havent exactly seen darude DOING anything to max. I wonder if its more a case of him being really really dangerous to the normies and their stuff, and really really hard to stop, but his power is only applicable to max in very specific ways, like she said, she needed a mask to keep him from shoving sand in her lungs. But aside from that, he may not have the power to be a real threat to her.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well according to the text box, last time they fought she ended with what was basically road rash because the fight forced her to divert energy towards flight and energy beams.
That i guess, in turn speaks about how absurdly powerful the sandblasts are. We are likely talking about industrial+ grade sandblasting.
The stuff that strips a human down to a skeleton in a short while.

----------


## Shining Wrath

We know Max has to wear him down by repeated blasting. I wonder what Halo will do to help? She's reaching for the blue sphere, which is flight. Is she going to fly into the sandstorm? How does that help?

----------


## Keltest

> We know Max has to wear him down by repeated blasting. I wonder what Halo will do to help? She's reaching for the blue sphere, which is flight. Is she going to fly into the sandstorm? How does that help?


She could be taking a gamble that the shield will cut him off from the sandstorm? She also seems to have become proficient in switching between flight and PPO without falling to her death while she was lost in time and space, so maybe she's just going to set it to "melt everything" and let loose?

----------


## Traab

> She could be taking a gamble that the shield will cut him off from the sandstorm? She also seems to have become proficient in switching between flight and PPO without falling to her death while she was lost in time and space, so maybe she's just going to set it to "melt everything" and let loose?


I mean, its not a terrible idea I suppose, but probably inefficient. I dont think her scattershot blast is hot enough to melt sand (Which takes a frankly absurd temp) And her beam would do it but is a narrow beam and thus not very efficient. However, it MIGHT be good as a distraction for max. Get his attention so max has the time to wind up, reallocate points to three mile island level, and nuke all of the sand, or at least enough to speed things up greatly. Considering the speed she can fly at, she may just be going for disruption. Id imagine a large enough shield bubble, traveling at several times the speed of sound, could create some large scale shockwaves within the sentient sand storm. A person shaped missile like max traveling at mach whatever, versus a orb shaped projectile large enough to contain 7 people doing the same. Someone do some advanced physics math on this, im kinda curious as to how the shockwaves might differ.

----------


## lord_khaine

With the amount of energy Max emits it seems unlikely Sydney can rival it just by flying around.
And its also not certain she can each the same speed with a massive 7 person shield as with a 1 person one.

But she does have a ½ genie with her in the shield. 
Its possible this will involve either her, or getting someone else up there?

----------


## Dragonus45

> She could be taking a gamble that the shield will cut him off from the sandstorm? She also seems to have become proficient in switching between flight and PPO without falling to her death while she was lost in time and space, so maybe she's just going to set it to "melt everything" and let loose?


I'm betting its the wide area shield trick. It probably even works, if she survives the time in between lowering it and raising it again. Only probably though. She might not be able to get all of him or he might be able to just shift what sane he is inside of. I could see this going potentially very suddenly dark when she just winds up with his severed arm inside of the shield. Still it's a trick the only works if you catch him the first time though.

----------


## Keltest

> I'm betting its the wide area shield trick. It probably even works, if she survives the time in between lowering it and raising it again. Only probably though. She might not be able to get all of him or he might be able to just shift what sane he is inside of. I could see this going potentially very suddenly dark when she just winds up with his severed arm inside of the shield. Still it's a trick the only works if you catch him the first time though.


The obvious problem I see with the wide area shield trick, which is why I'm really uncertain she would go for it, is that if he's in there somewhere, locking him and a bunch of his sand inside the shield with her is basically lethal. It only works if he's at some remote location outside the shield controlling the sand.

----------


## lord_khaine

It sounded more like this is a version of what Concretia does. Where Darude expands out and becomes a massive amount of sand. 

Its also why i dont think catching a shield full of sand will do anything meaningful 
Having individual bits of sand burned into gas or glass does not seem to affect him.

Also when the sand is moving at a speed that hurt Max over long time, then i dont think its save lowering the shield for even seconds.

----------


## Shining Wrath

If Halo's shield is truly invulnerable, and she can hit Darude at Mach 12, that's one heck of a shock wave. The damage to civilian structures and ears on the ground might be severe, though.

----------


## Radar

> If Halo's shield is truly invulnerable, and she can hit Darude at Mach 12, that's one heck of a shock wave. The damage to civilian structures and ears on the ground might be severe, though.


Indeed. This would seem to be a less concentrated destruction that those energy blasts Maxima produces. Not sure if even such a shockwave would do anything substantial to the sand - fusing grains of sand requires some extreme conditions. Maybe scattering it far enough would make Darude lose control over it, but this is all guesswork at this point.

----------


## lord_khaine

Its also uncertain she has enough acceleration to hit march 12 with such a low runup anyway.

----------


## Dragonus45

> The obvious problem I see with the wide area shield trick, which is why I'm really uncertain she would go for it, is that if he's in there somewhere, locking him and a bunch of his sand inside the shield with her is basically lethal. It only works if he's at some remote location outside the shield controlling the sand.


I think what might happen is she catches the sand he is "inside" of and hopefully with so little to work with within the shield itself he is less dangerous while she moves him around. Having tiny succubus girl who's name I can't be bothered to remember could likely help make this much less lethal in general. 




> It sounded more like this is a version of what Concretia does. Where Darude expands out and becomes a massive amount of sand. 
> 
> Its also why i dont think catching a shield full of sand will do anything meaningful 
> Having individual bits of sand burned into gas or glass does not seem to affect him.
> 
> Also when the sand is moving at a speed that hurt Max over long time, then i dont think its save lowering the shield for even seconds.


See above. Alternatively I wonder if she could scoop up some industrial sized heap of sand and just start carting the sand he isn't inside away while the shield cuts him off from it. Regardless I think abusing the shields ability to cut off things from the outside on a metaphysical level is likely the trick here.

----------


## Traab

> Indeed. This would seem to be a less concentrated destruction that those energy blasts Maxima produces. Not sure if even such a shockwave would do anything substantial to the sand - fusing grains of sand requires some extreme conditions. Maybe scattering it far enough would make Darude lose control over it, but this is all guesswork at this point.


See, to me the thing is, if the shockwave is big and bad enough, it would work as giving maxima her opening for a major blast. Think the time she wrapped vehemences eyes with her tentacle orb. No damage done, but it left him open for max to delimb the dude. If she can shatter his form and take his attention for even a few seconds, maxima can go full power and wide angle and slag a vast amount of area in one go, greatly reducing his available material and shortening the fight. Its not an instant win condition, but it should make things go faster. And heck, if she can take the advantage like that, its entirely possible she can carpet bomb him at higher power because she wont give him time to reform so he cant fight back well enough to force her to divert power to armor. 

I foresee it working a bit like this. Sydney flies away so she has room to gather full speed, she gives max a 5 second warning, "Five seconds till impact, then take the shot" Then KRAKABOOM! She slams her full sized shield at whatever mach she can hit right into darude, scattering his sand body and drawing his attention for the crucial moment. That being said, if whatever her plan is does work, it might show why she is moving up a few ranks quickly post flashback. She has shown repeatedly that she has not only a good control over her impressive powers, but the lateral thinking to solve thorny issues with plans that work surprisingly well. Vehemence and the super brawl she showed that several times, the twilight council and sciona she did so again, dealing with being trapped on an alien planet surrounded by hostile forces, the list goes on. Sydney is someone who can be counted on when matters get serious. I wouldnt put her in charge of anything important yet, but she is getting there.

----------


## Radar

> See, to me the thing is, if the shockwave is big and bad enough, it would work as giving maxima her opening for a major blast. Think the time she wrapped vehemences eyes with her tentacle orb. No damage done, but it left him open for max to delimb the dude. If she can shatter his form and take his attention for even a few seconds, maxima can go full power and wide angle and slag a vast amount of area in one go, greatly reducing his available material and shortening the fight. Its not an instant win condition, but it should make things go faster. And heck, if she can take the advantage like that, its entirely possible she can carpet bomb him at higher power because she wont give him time to reform so he cant fight back well enough to force her to divert power to armor.
> 
> I foresee it working a bit like this. Sydney flies away so she has room to gather full speed, she gives max a 5 second warning, "Five seconds till impact, then take the shot" Then KRAKABOOM! She slams her full sized shield at whatever mach she can hit right into darude, scattering his sand body and drawing his attention form the crucial moment.


That might be a good option. I was too focused on direct damage and did not see a possibility for support and aggro holding.




> That being said, if whatever her plan is does work, it might show why she is moving up a few ranks quickly post flashback. She has shown repeatedly that she has not only a good control over her impressive powers, but the lateral thinking to solve thorny issues with plans that work surprisingly well. Vehemence and the super brawl she showed that several times, the twilight council and sciona she did so again, dealing with being trapped on an alien planet surrounded by hostile forces, the list goes on. Sydney is someone who can be counted on when matters get serious. I wouldnt put her in charge of anything important yet, but she is getting there.


Emergency situation are most likely up her alley - basically anything that cannot be pre-planned and does not fall under standard procedures. Day-to-day operations and administration involved with an officer rank, I am really not sure. She does operate a business though, so maybe?

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## lord_khaine

> See above. Alternatively I wonder if she could scoop up some industrial sized heap of sand and just start carting the sand he isn't inside away while the shield cuts him off from it. Regardless I think abusing the shields ability to cut off things from the outside on a metaphysical level is likely the trick here.


Yeah i did see above. And no i still dont think it work that way. 
I also dont think Sydney survives lowering the shield. As mentioned previous. It freaking hurt Max (even if it was in a prolonged fight).

And i cant see how she can scoop up a industrisal sized heap of sand. right now its spread out decently. 
The amount of sand she can catch would be insignificant compared to what Max breaks.




> If she can shatter his form and take his attention for even a few seconds, maxima can go full power and wide angle and slag a vast amount of area in one go, greatly reducing his available material and shortening the fight. Its not an instant win condition, but it should make things go faster. And heck, if she can take the advantage like that, its entirely possible she can carpet bomb him at higher power because she wont give him time to reform so he cant fight back well enough to force her to divert power to armor.


I cant see how you can think Sydney can manage to shatter his form when Max at her best has only managed to get his attention. 
And i also cant see whats preventing Max from going wide angle now. except possibly not having the impact to melt sand on wide angle

----------


## Traab

> That might be a good option. I was too focused on direct damage and did not see a possibility for support and aggro holding.
> 
> 
> Emergency situation are most likely up her alley - basically anything that cannot be pre-planned and does not fall under standard procedures. Day-to-day operations and administration involved with an officer rank, I am really not sure. She does operate a business though, so maybe?


Too be fair, they were going out of business, though that may not be entirely her fault.  :Small Big Grin:  But yeah, I agree, she needs a lot more training and experience before I would put her in charge of a squad, with all the non combat stuff that entails being another issue entirely. But agreed, she is the fire extinguisher, great in emergencies, not so useful day to day.

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## Squire Doodad

> And i also cant see whats preventing Max from going wide angle now. except possibly not having the impact to melt sand on wide angle


I presume not being able to see what's there and thus major risk of collateral. It might also have negligible impact with spread than focusing on...his...face? Not sure what's going on there

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## lord_khaine

> I presume not being able to see what's there and thus major risk of collateral. It might also have negligible impact with spread than focusing on...his...face? Not sure what's going on there


I kinda assume that in a 4 hours fight Max has had time to test all the basic variations on her beam attack for effect.

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## Traab

> I kinda assume that in a 4 hours fight Max has had time to test all the basic variations on her beam attack for effect.


Im working under the assumption that she needs to maintain a certain level of durability, and flight speed, in order to cover her defenses, which keeps her from going full blast. Best reference, the thumb break and throat punch on vehemence. He had her pinned down so she couldnt use her strength to its fullest without weakening her defense enough to get her throat crushed. When jiggawatt absorbed his additional lightning damage, she was able to do a quick stat dump into physical strength to get him off her. Similar to this, if sydney is able to gain darudes attention, max could theoretically do a full stat dump into blaster and nuke him at a far higher destructive level than she currently can. If she can eliminate a sphere of sand a half mile in radius, its going to be harder for darude to retaliate as he needs to find more sand to inhabit leaving her free to continue nuking.

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## lord_khaine

In their last fight she ended up having to lower her defence far enough to get sandblasted. 
But she didnt do enough damage all the same.

And if she wanted to go full out now she could always move out of range and then nuke him. 
But we have not seen her do a wide area blast. So its quite possible she cant do that.

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## Dragonus45

> Yeah i did see above. And no i still dont think it work that way. 
> I also dont think Sydney survives lowering the shield. As mentioned previous. It freaking hurt Max (even if it was in a prolonged fight).
> 
> And i cant see how she can scoop up a industrisal sized heap of sand. right now its spread out decently. 
> The amount of sand she can catch would be insignificant compared to what Max breaks.


Once again, see above. Narratively convenient Dabbler's little sister is in the bubble with her. And her shield can expand fairly wide as well, she could easily get a ton of sand in there, which is only 22 cubic feet. Roughly the size of a large refrigerator. Heck they tried to put a couch in there  once.




> I cant see how you can think Sydney can manage to shatter his form when Max at her best has only managed to get his attention. 
> And i also cant see whats preventing Max from going wide angle now. except possibly not having the impact to melt sand on wide angle


And presumably large numbers of locals who would be caught in the blast radius.

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## Traab

> In their last fight she ended up having to lower her defence far enough to get sandblasted. 
> But she didnt do enough damage all the same.
> 
> And if she wanted to go full out now she could always move out of range and then nuke him. 
> But we have not seen her do a wide area blast. So its quite possible she cant do that.


Honestly, we dont know the full details, it may be that she got sandblasted a bit at the end because of how tired she was getting. That was a brutal endurance match fighting a sand manipulator in a desert.  And she did do enough damage to at least make him run away so it ended in her victory. It just took a long time because there was way too much sand for him to work with to end it fast. Thats not the situation here. Unless he has a new trick, she would win in the end anyways, and sooner this time as she has less material to blast first. But ending the fight faster is almost always the better option to take. 

The interesting thing here is, maxima clearly cant quickly end the fight as it is. Now, that may be because darude is strong enough to cause her issues if she doesnt defend herself, but the fact that he isnt ignoring her to go after his objective, whatever that may be, implies that he has to focus on her or else maybe she COULD wear his sand down fast enough to stop him. Im judging that their relative powers  are an odd setup where they are both stronger defensively than offensively. Darude cant seem to kill maxima even in a 4 hour death match. Meanwhile it took maxima 4 hours to wear him down to the point where he had to make his escape.

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## Dragonus45

> The interesting thing here is, maxima clearly cant quickly end the fight as it is. Now, that may be because darude is strong enough to cause her issues if she doesnt defend herself, but the fact that he isnt ignoring her to go after his objective, whatever that may be, implies that he has to focus on her or else maybe she COULD wear his sand down fast enough to stop him. Im judging that their relative powers  are an odd setup where they are both stronger defensively than offensively. Darude cant seem to kill maxima even in a 4 hour death match. Meanwhile it took maxima 4 hours to wear him down to the point where he had to make his escape.


Just saying, if I was the person doing planning for OPFOR here then Darude's objective _would_ be Maxima if only because time Max spends in that tarpit of a fight is time she spends not doing unimaginable damage to my plans.

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## Traab

> Just saying, if I was the person doing planning for OPFOR here then Darude's objective _would_ be Maxima if only because time Max spends in that tarpit of a fight is time she spends not doing unimaginable damage to my plans.


Yeah its an interesting decision. On the one hand, he is all that holds maxima back, which is important. On the other, he is a vast sentient sandstorm thats powerful enough to cause issues for maxima, meaning an enemy base would be worn down to desiccated bones in short order. That being said, i cant help but notice he is being a very huge and obvious distraction. The question becomes for who, and to accomplish what? It could be what it appears on the surface, an enemy raid to grab or destroy whatever they can get with their heavy Darude keeping the heavies of the enemy side busy. It could also be a deeper plan from deus as we know he has an extremely extensive set of connections to the evil underbelly of super society. It would hardly be a challenge for him to arrange this attack for some reason. On the other hand, he literally just confessed to being a super duper mega brain to maxima, which means she is going to be aware of the fact that he could be behind everything that happens and look into it, so maybe he wouldnt try that now.

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## lord_khaine

> Once again, see above. Narratively convenient Dabbler's little sister is in the bubble with her. And her shield can expand fairly wide as well, she could easily get a ton of sand in there, which is only 22 cubic feet. Roughly the size of a large refrigerator. Heck they tried to put a couch in there once.


Once again. I -DID- see above. 
While. Your leaving out that the sand is currently part of a sand storm. A literaly ton of sand is not going to fit into 22 cubic feett
What she can steal, is at best a full shield of sand, from a guy whose height is measured in kilometers.




> Yeah its an interesting decision. On the one hand, he is all that holds maxima back, which is important. On the other, he is a vast sentient sandstorm thats powerful enough to cause issues for maxima, meaning an enemy base would be worn down to desiccated bones in short order. That being said, i cant help but notice he is being a very huge and obvious distraction. The question becomes for who, and to accomplish what?


It is quite possible he is just what he appears. The heavy support for the team of heroes launching a surprise strike against the demon-summoning, humanity betraying, warlord about to conquer afrika.

And originally he was there to fend off native super/demons.
But now he is instead distracting the Imperialistic Golden Enforcer he has a feud with.

(i continue to be amused by how little change in perspective it takes to make Darude the hero)

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## Traab

Oh i agree, it absolutely could be played straight, a group of mercs or some nations military force working with darude to attack deus and it just happens that max was there. But it could also so easily be something more because that is one heck of a coincidence that darude just happens to attack deus at the base location where maxima just happens to be.

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## Radar

> Oh i agree, it absolutely could be played straight, a group of mercs or some nations military force working with darude to attack deus and it just happens that max was there. But it could also so easily be something more because that is one heck of a coincidence that darude just happens to attack deus at the base location where maxima just happens to be.


Might be that Deus made sure that Maxima's visit and Darude's attack happen at the same time. After all, when Maxima would arrive would have to be heavily consulted on a diplomatic level. What was stopping him from baiting his enemies to attack at a given time? This way he can get rid of a serious local threat as if Darude attacked some other time, things could have been more complicated for Deus or at least there would be more collateral damage.

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## Dragonus45

> While. Your leaving out that the sand is currently part of a sand storm. A literaly ton of sand is not going to fit into 22 cubic feett
> What she can steal, is at best a full shield of sand, from a guy whose height is measured in kilometers.


Is it? There is all kinds of sand just around on the ground or at the outside. Also, see above about magic user who could help cover her while she captures sand that _is_ part of the sandstorm if needed. It's right there in the comic. Also, yes a ton of sand is about 22 cubic feet.

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## halfeye

> Also, yes a ton of sand is about 22 cubic feet.


I presume they meant that the sand in a sandstorm is a lot less dense due to being mixed up with a lot of air.

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## Dragonus45

> I presume they meant that the sand in a sandstorm is a lot less dense due to being mixed up with a lot of air.


Considering I specified sand not in the sandstorm, why do people keep talking about sand in the sandstorm?

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## lord_khaine

> Also, see above about magic user who could help cover her while she captures sand that is part of the sandstorm if needed. It's right there in the comic. Also, yes a ton of sand is about 22 cubic feet.


As someone already pointed out, the part you quoted talked about sand in a sandstorm. So its very much not going to fit 22 cubic feet.




> Considering I specified sand not in the sandstorm, why do people keep talking about sand in the sandstorm?


Because -you- specifically have been talking about catching the sand Darude is in.

"I think what might happen is she catches the sand he is "inside" of and hopefully with so little to work with within the shield itself he is less dangerous while she moves him around."

You also spoke about industrial sized heaps of sand. Just about the only ones of those are in Darude. 
Certainly if you want to fill even ½ the shield without spending a couple days sweeping the base.

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## The Glyphstone

I am missing something here. How is the volume of sand Sydney can capture inside her shield helpful to the fight, is she going to try and carry Darude's sand into orbit one scoop at a time and hope he can't replenish it from the ground?

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## Traab

I think the point was, she can scoop and move a literal ton of sand per trip out of his presumed range? That would at least marginally speed up his loss of fuel but its like trying to drain a lake with a bucket. Sure a ton SOUNDS like a significant amount, but its really not that much on this scale.

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## Dragonus45

> As someone already pointed out, the part you quoted talked about sand in a sandstorm. So its very much not going to fit 22 cubic feet.
> 
> Because -you- specifically have been talking about catching the sand Darude is in.
> 
> "I think what might happen is she catches the sand he is "inside" of and hopefully with so little to work with within the shield itself he is less dangerous while she moves him around."
> 
> You also spoke about industrial sized heaps of sand. Just about the only ones of those are in Darude. 
> Certainly if you want to fill even ½ the shield without spending a couple days sweeping the base.


See below, bolded my specific responses to you for emphasis. Don't put words in my mouth. 




> *See above. Alternatively I wonder if she could scoop up some industrial sized heap of sand and just start carting the sand he isn't inside away while the shield cuts him off from it.* Regardless I think abusing the shields ability to cut off things from the outside on a metaphysical level is likely the trick here.





> *Is it? There is all kinds of sand just around on the ground or at the outside. Also, see above about magic user who could help cover her while she captures sand that is part of the sandstorm if needed.* It's right there in the comic. Also, yes a ton of sand is about 22 cubic feet.





> I think the point was, she can scoop and move a literal ton of sand per trip out of his presumed range? That would at least marginally speed up his loss of fuel but its like trying to drain a lake with a bucket. Sure a ton SOUNDS like a significant amount, but its really not that much on this scale.


Considering that's effectively Maxima's plan, to just blast the sand endlessly until there isn't anything left, Sydney with the several tons of sand she could fit into her shield and take away from the fighting could speed the process up greatly.

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## DataNinja

Oh, good. Looks like we're getting no answers in exchange for... _this_, with a really awkward bit of "oh, good, that's really really creepy and wrong and _why are you not getting consent_?" in the commentary.. Not a fan here. At all.

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## lord_khaine

> See below, bolded my specific responses to you for emphasis. Don't put words in my mouth.


Im not putting any words into your mouth. Your doing that yourself just fine.




> See above. Alternatively I wonder if she could scoop up some industrial sized heap of sand and just start carting the sand he isn't inside away while the shield cuts him off from it. Regardless I think abusing the shields ability to cut off things from the outside on a metaphysical level is likely the trick here.





> Considering that's effectively Maxima's plan, to just blast the sand endlessly until there isn't anything left, Sydney with the several tons of sand she could fit into her shield and take away from the fighting could speed the process up greatly.


This alone covers it just fine. 

As has repeatedly been pointed out. The sand is in the freaking sandstorm. 
Thats the only place there is sand on a industrial scale. There isnt anywhere else for Sydney to 'just' get several tons of sand.

Though as such, there isnt as such a place in the sandstorm either, its spread out there. 
And to compound the issue, its not like Sydney has any way to pick up sand on a industrial scale anyway.

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## Dragonus45

> As has repeatedly been pointed out. The sand is in the freaking sandstorm. 
> Thats the only place there is sand on a industrial scale. There isnt anywhere else for Sydney to 'just' get several tons of sand.


Ok I guess I still need to repeat myself though. There is sand everywhere, not just in the sandstorm. It is literally right there, in the comic, visually apparent for all to see. 





> Though as such, there isnt as such a place in the sandstorm either, its spread out there. 
> And to compound the issue, its not like Sydney has any way to pick up sand on a industrial scale anyway.


She has a sizable bubble that can fit several tons of sand inside of it.




> Oh, good. Looks like we're getting no answers in exchange for... _this_, with a really awkward bit of "oh, good, that's really really creepy and wrong and _why are you not getting consent_?" in the commentary.. Not a fan here. At all.


Yea that commentary took a funny scene of Dabbler convincing some super to use their powers for some fun kinky shenanigans and turned it into something truly gross and heinous.

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## Traab

Yeah at first I was like, "Huh?" Then i read the rest of the commentary and went, "Yeah ok the reaction here makes sense." I mean, just leave it at "Dabbler was fangirling out over the possibilities for fun and sweaty times kronas power grants" and leave out specifics so its more left to the imagination. That would have been a much better option to take. Because yeah we can all see dabbler just drooling over the thought and probably has an encyclopedia of ideas of ways to make things kinky and great. We dont need to get into niche and risky fetishes that should involve two consenting adults with safe words and such setup beforehand.

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## Shining Wrath

So Dabbler messed with Krona's mind which caused her to mess with Leon's mind, without consent all the way along the line.

*Sigh*.

Can we get back to Halo and Maxima versus Sandman?

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## Traab

> So Dabbler messed with Krona's mind which caused her to mess with Leon's mind, without consent all the way along the line.
> 
> *Sigh*.
> 
> Can we get back to Halo and Maxima versus Sandman?


Nah, dabbler actually didnt do much other than wax eloquent on how awesome for sex kronas powers are. I put full blame on krona for anything she has done. She might have been inspired by dabbler rambling, but the choice was hers. But yeah, id rather see it go back to the important stuff.

*EDIT* Also, this may cause trouble for her long term. She is already under pretty heavy observation due to her reality altering power, and using your ability on an ARCHON employee might end badly if discovered.

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## Shining Wrath

Especially for purposes of getting sex out of them.

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## sihnfahl

Oh, it gets worse if you read the Artist Notes.

Dabbler didn't do anything but TALK dirty.

Krona, however?  She hacked herself AND Leon, so that if someone's in the mood, they both are!

Like slipping an aphrodisiac into someone's drink if you're in the mood.  Only more subtle and undetectable unless you know how to see reality hacks.

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## TeChameleon

Getting to this a little later, and there's a clarification that the link is one-way- Krona only hacked herself to echo Leon.  Maybe a bit weird, maybe just convenient, but it doesn't seem to cross any boundaries that I can think of..?

Granted, I have no idea what the actual point of this is, unless the author's apparent wish to actually be doing erotica, not superheroes, is kicking in again  :Small Annoyed: 

... yeah, not here for Sex Lives of the Rich and Super, thanks.  If it keeps going down this route, my interest is going to fade rapidly.

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## Traab

> Getting to this a little later, and there's a clarification that the link is one-way- Krona only hacked herself to echo Leon.  Maybe a bit weird, maybe just convenient, but it doesn't seem to cross any boundaries that I can think of..?
> 
> Granted, I have no idea what the actual point of this is, unless the author's apparent wish to actually be doing erotica, not superheroes, is kicking in again 
> 
> ... yeah, not here for Sex Lives of the Rich and Super, thanks.  If it keeps going down this route, my interest is going to fade rapidly.


Ok, if its one way like that, that removes pretty much all the squick. It still feels a little strange, like she feels as if she should always be in the mood when "her man" is. You can chase that rabbit hole down to a fairly dark and misogynistic pathway, but that may be looking into it further than dave thought about it. He may have just gone, "Synchronized horny! Thats awesome!" And left it at that. But yeah, while I dont mind seeing comics that explore the personal lives of the characters a bit, not in the middle of a fricking super battle dave!

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## sihnfahl

> Getting to this a little later, and there's a clarification that the link is one-way- Krona only hacked herself to echo Leon.


I believe his clarification is thus:

It's one way so that if Leon's in the mood, she is, and if she's in the mood, Leon is.

But it's not TWO way as that would cause a feedback loop until they're both so horny they'll do it in public.

So, yeah, Krona gets in the mood, Leon doesn't get that '... but my MMORPG', he gets 'Let's go'
And when Leon's in the mood, Krona isn't so much 'not tonight, dear, I got a headache'

But yeah, I'm reading this as a: "Okay, the original idea I had for Sydney's Darude solution wasn't as good as I thought it was and way too fridge logic, so here's ... horny filler."

----------


## The Glyphstone

Maybe a little filler, but my read on this is that Sydney's solution to Darude requires Krona's abilities in some fashion and this is right before Sydney interrupts their imminent fun.

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## Dragonus45

> Maybe a little filler, but my read on this is that Sydney's solution to Darude requires Krona's abilities in some fashion and this is right before Sydney interrupts their imminent fun.


Could be, her powers are even more hax then Sydney's. I was expecting a funny background event with Arianna back there myself.

----------


## Keltest

> Maybe a little filler, but my read on this is that Sydney's solution to Darude requires Krona's abilities in some fashion and this is right before Sydney interrupts their imminent fun.


This is where I was reading it too. Its late for them, theyre doing Significant Other Private Things during their downtime, then Sydney shows a mastery of comedic timing.

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## Shining Wrath

> This is where I was reading it too. Its late for them, theyre doing Significant Other Private Things during their downtime, then Sydney shows a mastery of comedic timing.


Dave did talk about the transit time from Mozambique to ArcSwat, and we do know Halo had to tone it down to keep her max speed classified.
Maybe it's time to reveal her max speed and head to ArcSwat (suborbital ballistic trajectory to avoid sonic booms?) and collect Krona at the comedically appropriate moment of maximum frustration.

----------


## Rydiro

> Ok, if its one way like that, that removes pretty much all the squick. It still feels a little strange, like she feels as if she should always be in the mood when "her man" is.


 It is certainly not a mind-r*** anymore, but still nonconsented mind-reading. She reads leons thoughts and echoes them.
I mean, so does Dabbler (sensing horniness), but the Succubus can't turn off her nutrition.

----------


## Dragonus45

> It is certainly not a mind-r*** anymore, but still nonconsented mind-reading. She reads leons thoughts and echoes them.
> I mean, so does Dabbler (sensing horniness), but the Succubus can't turn off her nutrition.


That's a stretch, just because Dabbler can see and understand things outside the norm of our senses doesn't make what she does a violation any more then me seeing a person smile without meaning too is unconsensually reading their mind. Sure just about everything else about the situation is ****ed and I blame Dabbler from the ground up, but this part is in the clear.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well.. yeah its more reading emotions than thoughs. 
And not even conciously reading them. As she isnt aware of the source, just that she is in the mood for some quality time.

New Comic.

Alright i confess this twist really hooked me.
So all this was actually a distraction? 

Max is tied up fighting an opponent who can stall her for hours. 
While someone else raids Archon for god knows what?

----------


## Traab

At first I was amused by the big red button and rappelling people, but it makes sense in hindsight. If my house loses service its an annoyance. If a government building full of lord knows what sort of important info and people is suddenly cut off from the world, that can be a sign of imminent invasion. Leon had BETTER jump on the alarm button for that. Better there be a dozen false alarms than he delay the alert for 5 seconds when there could be or are incoming. Also, at first I thought those were super IT people coming in. Look, I just woke up and im tired. But yeah, magic yourself up some pants krona, you are probably going to need them shortly. Glad we got a reality warper literally in the server room, could come in handy till the rest of archon gets ready to respond.

----------


## Rydiro

> At first I was amused by the big red button and rappelling people, but it makes sense in hindsight. If my house loses service its an annoyance. If a government building full of lord knows what sort of important info and people is suddenly cut off from the world, that can be a sign of imminent invasion. Leon had BETTER jump on the alarm button for that. Better there be a dozen false alarms than he delay the alert for 5 seconds when there could be or are incoming. Also, at first I thought those were super IT people coming in. Look, I just woke up and im tired. But yeah, magic yourself up some pants krona, you are probably going to need them shortly. Glad we got a reality warper literally in the server room, could come in handy till the rest of archon gets ready to respond.


Its not just the internet connections. They are jamming all (external and internal) wireless comms too. Leon probably knows the redundancies and concludes enemy action is a highly probable cause for this.

----------


## Radar

I do not think we have seen that flaming head guy ever before. I wonder if he might be connected to the group that abducted Concretia and Sydney. They were clearly organized pretty well and had some serious beef with ARCHON. Whoever it is, I think the timing is not a coincidence - I assume they did wait until most of the top-tier supers are busy elsewhere. Still, unless the head honcho is super-powerful, this attack cannot end well for the intruders. At most they could attempt a quick smash and grab operation or maybe they hope to get a lot of civilian hostages before supers retaliate.

----------


## lord_khaine

Good point on the most likely suspects. 
It does have to be a fairly major organisation to pull something like this off.
And its to crude for Deus i think.

As for what they want? Yeah i think smash&grab sounds likely.
Archon should have all manner of priceless things at their HQ.
Gear, secrets, supers.

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## Dragonus45

Interesting page, things are heating up in more ways then one. Zulu Zulu Zulu is a Honor Harrington reference btw. At least that's where I know it from, I don't know if it was itself a reference to some other story or something.

----------


## Traab

Its also a good explanation for why leon is always in that room outside of parties or whatever. They need someone right there to react to being cutoff like they are. Now, all that being said, while yes, a lot of their heavy hitters are gone, max, sydney, dabbler, and anvil, they still have hiro, harem, math, and possibly the recent grads. Along with achilles, who is a great delay tactic with legs, amorphus and heatwave. So the ambushers better move quick because they have maybe a minute and a half before an organized response is setup and in action. Oh yeah, and whoever else is on grounds with powers from spellcasters to arclight/dark/aegis.

----------


## Shining Wrath

I count 7 mooks, super strength guy dragging down the wall, and BBEG flying.
Point one: these guys have to be serious to be in the building without setting off alarms. There's got to be sensors on the exterior grounds, including things to pick up fliers. One does not simply walk into Arc HQ.
Point one point five: That means someone tech savvy, either the BBEG himself, or an off-screen minion. Presumably mooks are mooks and super-strength guy is not there for his hacking abilities, but Dave might throw an anti-trope curveball at us.
Point two: I do not put it past Deus, at all, to do something he know will draw powerful forces from ArcSwat, arrange for Darude to attack to tie down the ArcSwat team in Africa, and then attack Arc HQ in order to seize information (like their database of known supers, which he can then try to recruit).

----------


## Dragonus45

> I count 7 mooks, super strength guy dragging down the wall, and BBEG flying.
> Point one: these guys have to be serious to be in the building without setting off alarms. There's got to be sensors on the exterior grounds, including things to pick up fliers. One does not simply walk into Arc HQ.
> Point one point five: That means someone tech savvy, either the BBEG himself, or an off-screen minion. Presumably mooks are mooks and super-strength guy is not there for his hacking abilities, but Dave might throw an anti-trope curveball at us.
> Point two: I do not put it past Deus, at all, to do something he know will draw powerful forces from ArcSwat, arrange for Darude to attack to tie down the ArcSwat team in Africa, and then attack Arc HQ in order to seize information (like their database of known supers, which he can then try to recruit).


I agree it's entirely possible, and that he has no qualms about doing it if needed, I just don't know that Deus would actually need anything from Arc he couldn't just get easier then this. Frankly, he is ahead of the curve right now.

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## lord_khaine

Good point on whats left of Archon not being harmless. There are some very heavy hitters remaining.
And covering a fairly wide spread of powers to. You need different tools to take down Math and Hiro. But both will wreck your ground team if not stopped. 
That does add support for the smash&grab suggestion.

Counter Point 2.
I think Deus could get the needed info a lot easier if he wanted to. Looking at how easy he broke into the artifact vault.
I also think he dont need that info, seemingly being able to make supers? or at least hire aliens.
Lastly as already mentioned i do think he knows more this than Archon.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Oh, I'm not insisting on it must be Deus, just pointing out the timing is pretty darn coincidental if he isn't involved. Of course, this enemy may very well have their own intelligence capabilities and learned Our Lady Of Incineration was out of town. And that they are arriving at night suggests that they don't think they can take Hiro + Math + the rest. They don't intend to stay long.

The mask on super-strong guy does remind me of the worthless used pieces of toilet paper that tortured Concretia and intended to murder Halo. In which case I hope Concretia puts in an appearance and opens a large can of whooping. It may be coincidence, though - how many evil organization masks can Dave draw? Also, BBEG has a cape, while super strong guy lacks a shirt - neither is consistent with the Concertia torture team dress code.

I want to see Math against super strong guy. Boot to the head!

----------


## lord_khaine

Oh yeah the timing is certainly to good to be true. 
But you dont need to be a super genius like Deus to arrange something like that. 
(my counter argument for Deus's involvement. To crude)

That Max has a official diplomatic visit to Galten is close to impossible to cover up.
To many officials involved. And they likely need flight permissions and stuff. 

It then dont take a genius to hit Galten with Max's nemesis. 
While hitting Archon with a subtle strike force.

----------


## Radar

If Deus had absolutely anything to do with this attack, it is more likely to be something indirect maybe even with subduing the attackers as one of the goals - basically nudging them with some fragmentary intel to do something stupid. Or as with Sciona in the vault, he will use the chaos to get something out of ARCHON headquarters discretely.

----------


## Dragonus45

> If Deus had absolutely anything to do with this attack, it is more likely to be something indirect maybe even with subduing the attackers as one of the goals - basically nudging them with some fragmentary intel to do something stupid. Or as with Sciona in the vault, he will use the chaos to get something out of ARCHON headquarters discretely.


Provided he keeps himself in the clear just joining himself and ARC against a common foe could be enough, since it gets him closer to his most important and dangerous goal. The top of the list, priority SSS+ must do or it all will be for naught objective, dating Maxima.

----------


## Radar

> Provided he keeps himself in the clear just joining himself and ARC against a common foe could be enough, since it gets him closer to his most important and dangerous goal. The top of the list, priority SSS+ must do or it all will be for naught objective, dating Maxima.


Theme song for Deus?  :Small Wink:

----------


## Traab

One of the issues for deus being behind this is, he is already elbow deep in archon by virtue of being one of its biggest backers and suppliers of random stuff. Not even counting dating double, maybe triple, agent harem. Or whatever the amusing euphemism was he used, consensual hanging out? Point being, there is likely very little he could get out of this, aside from maybe a forced conscription of someone, or maybe a setup of some sort where these dudes are patsies sent to lure specific people to a specific area for a specific purpose. 

As a random example, My name is Dirk, im leader of the Manhattan Murder Hobos. The penultimate gang in NYC. My only rivals are the Harlem Borough Trotters who dare to oppose me. I cant just go for outright warfare, the losses would add up and the cops would respond. So instead I used my dastardly plotting skills to fake an assault on a police precinct, left evidence the Trotters were behind it, then let the cops raid my rivals headquarters. Then I moved in to mop up whoever was left. 

Long winded way of saying this could be a semi complicated plot to aim archon at his enemies so he can profit. Get max halo dabbler and anvil away from base so a raid is lower risk, have it attacked, goons get away with some sort of valuable thing, either servers or something locked in an archon vault, leaving behind enough evidence to "prove" it was Tres ex Anima inc that was behind it, then revel in the corporate bloodbath as he rolls up the company into his own after significant portions end up in jail or dead.

----------


## Traab

Ouchie. I know that they have themselves a super healer on staff but that isnt going to make the next however long it takes less painful. Also, seriously lady? Your reaction to everything going dark and alarms going off in a high security government building is to walk out of your door hollering? Well, if she lives, lesson learned I guess? And I kinda agree with dave here. While taking out the power and communications was a great step to raid the location, the followup is kinda lackluster. Also, the flashbang. The door was automatically closing so what exactly was going to be accomplished by giving the people inside the presumably VERY strong glass a bad headache and temp deafness/blindness? I suppose it would slow down anything leon might be able to do in there if there is anything he can do, like swapping plugs to internal power generators or something. And I could absolutely see that as being an emergency move. He has a couple powerful batteries or whatever inside the room, in case external power and standard backup generators are shut down, he can still swap internal defenses and communication over from inside the room for at the very least a short term activation to fight off the invasion.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Arianna ought to be at a minimum scarred for life here, and everyone's training should absolutely include how to respond to an alarm - which is probably not "enter hallway, draw attention to yourself".

----------


## lord_khaine

To be fair to Adriana, Krona who were in the middle of everything initially assumed it was a drill.
Its a lot more likely that alarm is a drill. I mean, who the heck is dumb enough to attack Archon at their base, right?
Its a bit like attacking a military base. Only worse.

----------


## Keltest

> To be fair to Adriana, Krona who were in the middle of everything initially assumed it was a drill.
> Its a lot more likely that alarm is a drill. I mean, who the heck is dumb enough to attack Archon at their base, right?
> Its a bit like attacking a military base. Only worse.


On the one hand yes. On the other hand, if you were to be caught doing that during a drill, you would, at best, be severely reprimanded. That is, after all, the point of a drill.

----------


## Dragonus45

> On the one hand yes. On the other hand, if you were to be caught doing that during a drill, you would, at best, be severely reprimanded. That is, after all, the point of a drill.


Here is where the issues with Arianna being so tied in with Archon comes into play. She is essentially just a civilian contractor, and ultimately one who is to highly connected and tied in with the organization to be easy to reprimand or replace for something like this, so I bet she just never got into the habit of respecting drills.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Here is where the issues with Arianna being so tied in with Archon comes into play. She is essentially just a civilian contractor, and ultimately one who is to highly connected and tied in with the organization to be easy to reprimand or replace for something like this, so I bet she just never got into the habit of respecting drills.


Disrespecting safety practices is a good way to die. As we just saw. If Arianna thought she was too special to do safety drills, she just learned how not-special she is.

----------


## Keltest

> Here is where the issues with Arianna being so tied in with Archon comes into play. She is essentially just a civilian contractor, and ultimately one who is to highly connected and tied in with the organization to be easy to reprimand or replace for something like this, so I bet she just never got into the habit of respecting drills.


As I said, safety drills are never optional. The only people who might possibly be getting out of them are the ones overseeing the drills to make sure people are doing them correctly. Even something like a fire in the building doesnt care who you are or what your rank is. You will get out in an orderly manner, period, or you will get hurt.

----------


## Dragonus45

> As I said, safety drills are never optional. The only people who might possibly be getting out of them are the ones overseeing the drills to make sure people are doing them correctly.



This is true in theory, but even in the real world there tends to be mixed results. Add in the confused command structure of ARCHON, and differing workplace standards that result from so many of the individual members being inherently valuable in a way that is difficult to quantify and you get a civilian who practically lives on base, is mixed up in the chain of command in odd ways, and then takes a very very wrong turn during an attack and get's a lesson learned. Or she actually has powers and this is the reveal. I wouldn't put it past Dave. I don't see her getting hurt too badly here though.

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## lord_khaine

> On the one hand yes. On the other hand, if you were to be caught doing that during a drill, you would, at best, be severely reprimanded. That is, after all, the point of a drill.


Problem is of course she is one of the people authorising the drills and so on.
Im kinda confident if you randomly pressed the alarm at most bases, then you would get confused generals popping up asking what idiot pressed the fire alarm.

In a situation like this, its about 99% likely or so the alarm is due to some idiot fooling around.
Since i mean.. look at some of the recruits? Sydney is the worst.
But show what kind of people they have to take because they have powers.

Saved by Varia. 
My guess would have been Heat Wave.

----------


## Traab

Well thats fortuitous.




> Problem is of course she is one of the people authorising the drills and so on.
> Im kinda confident if you randomly pressed the alarm at most bases, then you would get confused generals popping up asking what idiot pressed the fire alarm.
> 
> In a situation like this, its about 99% likely or so the alarm is due to some idiot fooling around.
> Since i mean.. look at some of the recruits? Sydney is the worst.
> But show what kind of people they have to take because they have powers.
> 
> Saved by Varia. 
> My guess would have been Heat Wave.


She would not be authorizing drills, she is the media consultant. Her job is marketing archon in such a way that the people support it. This does have trickle down effect in a few areas you might not expect, like when interviewing sydney, she was analyzing her to see if she would help or hurt the brand (got excited by collect them all) But security drills? At best she might be able to say, "We have a press conference then, so maybe push it back till 4?"

As a side note, the fact that they have a media consultant like her here makes me have The Boys flashbacks. I doubt very much they would go to the extent Vought does to control media opinion but still.

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## Shining Wrath

Well, that's good timing. But does Varia have to keep a grip on Arianna to keep her from dying? 

Also, BBEG doesn't care if he kills. That's a statement, because Arianna may be annoying, but her death would be avenged as a matter of principle. It's like killing a cop, but the cop is Commissioner Gordon, and now the Super Friends are after you.

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## lord_khaine

> She would not be authorizing drills, she is the media consultant. Her job is marketing archon in such a way that the people support it. This does have trickle down effect in a few areas you might not expect, like when interviewing sydney, she was analyzing her to see if she would help or hurt the brand (got excited by collect them all) But security drills? At best she might be able to say, "We have a press conference then, so maybe push it back till 4?"


I said ONE of, not THE. She is by all accounts one of the key decision makers. 
Doing stuff like taking calls from senators. Or arranging surprises for Maxima at a bank. 
So no, i cant see her not being part of the group that decides something as major as a unannounced security drill.




> Well, that's good timing. But does Varia have to keep a grip on Arianna to keep her from dying?
> 
> Also, BBEG doesn't care if he kills. That's a statement, because Arianna may be annoying, but her death would be avenged as a matter of principle. It's like killing a cop, but the cop is Commissioner Gordon, and now the Super Friends are after you.


Its extremely lucky, and very good timming.

And yeah. Its also a massive statement. 
I would like to think Max would come down on you like a ton of rectangular building blocks if you killed the girl who brought her morning coffee out of personal reasons.
But killing the very visible Archon spokesperson is possibly the only think you could do to provoke them more as an organisation than robbing their base.
This is a declaration of war.

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## sihnfahl

> Well, that's good timing. But does Varia have to keep a grip on Arianna to keep her from dying?


Yeah, Varia's power ends the moment she lets go.  So as long as Arianna is getting flamed, Varia needs to hold on.

And then Heavy Weapons Guy introduces her to Sasha.

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## Shining Wrath

Since BBEG is willing to kill Archon members, thereby ensuring they will hunt him down, I think the odds that Deus is involved at all just dropped a lot; and if he has any involvement, he'd be horrified to learn that BBEG is this stupid.

In fact, if you think you can take out Archon, the rest of the world has to ask themselves "Do we want to be next? Probably not.". The United States still has some reliable allies, but an alliance of convenience with nearly everyone might occur if BBEG is really a threat to Archon. BBEG may think he can flee to, e.g., some island in the Sprately Island chain and China won't let the United States come visit - and then discover that ArcSwat is visiting with full cooperation and participation by the Australian, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Filipino, etc., equivalents. No nation wants super-powered mass murderers running free.

It's how I handle murder hoboes in D&D; you burn down the tavern, and discover that the Baron defends his people. Oh, you took out the Baron's squad? Here comes the Duke's people, then the Queen's, then the Emperor's. And the Emperor's team is 3x your number, all 20th level, and have artifact level magical equipment, including stuff that gives them 100% accurate intelligence on where you are and what you're doing. Good luck with that!

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## lord_khaine

The odds that Deus was involved were already slim to none imo.

But well.. im less certain about the alliance of convenience. 
To a lot of nations Archon is a rival organisation. If they get bombed? bring out the champagne.

Are there supers on the run now, with low to little morale? 
That in turn sounds like the time to extend employment offers to whats a priceless asset. 

Not officially of course. But to your black opp team. Since no nation indeed want super powered killers to run flee.
But to have them work for you? ohh thats another story.

----------


## The Glyphstone

Why would Archon be a rival to any other nations? They're a domestic security agency, and one of the big points being driven into us right now is that their mandate outside U.S. borders is extremely limited.

And as far as shadowy recruitment goes - the last sort of person you want on your black-ops squad is an uncontrolled maniac who decides to pick a fight with the biggest and baddest super-agency in the world. That's a colossal liability just waiting to happen.

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## lord_khaine

Because if you were a rival nation, and begun to develop nukes or the equivalent. 
But explained that it was for "defensive purpose only" And "no need to worry"
Then i would begin to develop my own as fast as possible.
Its not relevant for this topic what Archon is. Only what its seen as.

While regarding shadow recruitment. Well that makes assumptions on how controllable said maniac actually are.
And as for picking a fight with the biggest and baddest super agency in the world?
Well i think i already presented my arguments for why thats unlikely to be Archon.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Radar

> It's how I handle murder hoboes in D&D; you burn down the tavern, and discover that the Baron defends his people. Oh, you took out the Baron's squad? Here comes the Duke's people, then the Queen's, then the Emperor's. And the Emperor's team is 3x your number, all 20th level, and have artifact level magical equipment, including stuff that gives them 100% accurate intelligence on where you are and what you're doing. Good luck with that!


Well, burning down a tavern would also draw the attention of all the other adventurers. After all, where would they gather the party, go looking for clues and rest between quests?




> Why would Archon be a rival to any other nations? They're a domestic security agency, and one of the big points being driven into us right now is that their mandate outside U.S. borders is extremely limited.


1. Overall arms race. Supers are one of the most important defensive and offensive assets a nation can have. All that talk of ARCHON being purely for internal defense could at moments notice turn out to be just talk and we know that some of the ARCHON supers were deployed abroad with regular army before. Whatever international agreements are in place, they mean only as much as signing signs want them to.
2. _My state is the best in the world and we shall have the best supers no matter what!_ response can be triggered easily. Just think on why did we go to the Moon for example. Also consider that there are always people who consider cutting down the concurrence as a viable method of reaching the top position.



> And as far as shadowy recruitment goes - the last sort of person you want on your black-ops squad is an uncontrolled maniac who decides to pick a fight with the biggest and baddest super-agency in the world. That's a colossal liability just waiting to happen.


Remember that gal with contract-based powers? Whoever hired her obviously did not ponder well enough in that decision. The case of the pyromaniac at hand could be similar - whoever hired him needed muscles, this guy agreed, so he's on the assault team. Not every villain takes their time to interview the candidates properly.

----------


## Shining Wrath

A mercenary is a mercenary, and a more powerful mercenary still has the same problems. You recruit pyromaniac from today's script, how do you know you can trust him? He's powerful and a risk taker - what happens if he's left to defend your base when part of the team goes on a mission, and he seizes the moment and loots your base, then burns it? How do you know he hasn't sold out to someone who offered more money, or money + freedom to burn more things, or whatever pot sweetener appeals to pyromaniac?

In fact, I think this is where Deus is driving (just likely taking it too far, as is his wont) - supers are too powerful to be trusted, you need to have some sort of control over them. All of them. Who responds if Maxima betrays America?

----------


## Radar

> A mercenary is a mercenary, and a more powerful mercenary still has the same problems. You recruit pyromaniac from today's script, how do you know you can trust him? He's powerful and a risk taker - what happens if he's left to defend your base when part of the team goes on a mission, and he seizes the moment and loots your base, then burns it? How do you know he hasn't sold out to someone who offered more money, or money + freedom to burn more things, or whatever pot sweetener appeals to pyromaniac?
> 
> In fact, I think this is where Deus is driving (just likely taking it too far, as is his wont) - supers are too powerful to be trusted, you need to have some sort of control over them. All of them. Who responds if Maxima betrays America?


While maxim 49 states that every target is one bribe away from becoming a client, a mercenary needs to remember about top priorities:
1. Get paid.
2. Live long enough to spend your money.

And it is not just about being a target for revenge - that's the standard risk in this line of work. It's more that the person who bribed you knows you have no loyalty other than money and he could be outbidded at any moment. Typically a solution for that is simple: off the risky asset once the job is done. And even if you live through that, who would hire you afterwards?

Anyone doing mercenary work longterm needs to be loyal enough that when contract is agreed upon, it is to be fulfilled as long as the employer is holding his end of the deal. Those who violate this kind of common sense I guess would not work or live very long.

Obviously, a throughout background check should always be made on all prospective contractors.

----------


## Traab

> While maxim 49 states that every target is one bribe away from becoming a client, a mercenary needs to remember about top priorities:
> 1. Get paid.
> 2. Live long enough to spend your money.
> 
> And it is not just about being a target for revenge - that's the standard risk in this line of work. It's more that the person who bribed you knows you have no loyalty other than money and he could be outbidded at any moment. Typically a solution for that is simple: off the risky asset once the job is done. And even if you live through that, who would hire you afterwards?
> 
> Anyone doing mercenary work longterm needs to be loyal enough that when contract is agreed upon, it is to be fulfilled as long as the employer is holding his end of the deal. Those who violate this kind of common sense I guess would not work or live very long.
> 
> Obviously, a throughout background check should always be made on all prospective contractors.


Agreed, its theoretically possible the merc could get a big enough payday to vanish and live the high life in the easter islands or whatever over a big enough betrayal, but it had better be good enough to retire on, because nobody else will hire you other than for teams where everyone involved is racing to betray each other first. You get one turncoat opportunity before your career is basically over.

----------


## The Glyphstone

Either way, someone is definitely paying for this - the supers might be mercs, but the goons are all wearing matching armor suits and helmets. If all their outfits come from one place, thats at least circumstantial evidence that they came from the same place.

If grenade goon hadn't talked, I would be assuming it was Sciona using her golems again. She's still pretty high on my list anyways, with a grudge against Archon and the resources of the apparently well known Mexican supervillain she possessed. If that includes cartel ties, it would mean money and soldiers.

----------


## Radar

> Either way, someone is definitely paying for this - the supers might be mercs, but the goons are all wearing matching armor suits and helmets. If all their outfits come from one place, thats at least circumstantial evidence that they came from the same place.
> 
> If grenade goon hadn't talked, I would be assuming it was Sciona using her golems again. She's still pretty high on my list anyways, with a grudge against Archon and the resources of the apparently well known Mexican supervillain she possessed. If that includes cartel ties, it would mean money and soldiers.


And Sciona being behind this would explain the attempt to kill off Archon staff to be honest.

----------


## lord_khaine

> And Sciona being behind this would explain the attempt to kill off Archon staff to be honest.


So far it has not seen like an attempt to kill Archon staff. 
More like that one of the hired Supers has sufficiently low care for human life, that witnesses just gets burned by default. 

But i dont think its Sciona thats involved. 
It seem a little to swiftly for her to build this amount of resources. 
And also a needless risk, when she is in a position to build a solid power base in a rather lawless place.

I do think prime suspect is whatever jerk held cementia captive.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> I do think prime suspect is whatever jerk held cementia captive.


I don't think that's particularly likely, since he's dead and his organization was wiped out. Though you never know with supers.

----------


## lord_khaine

It in turn sounds unlikely that the guy Cora exploded was the brain behind the organisation. 
I certainly cant see a reason for why whoever had Cementia captive would go him/her self instead of sending a disposeable minion.

We have also not been told anything about the organisation getting wiped out. 
Only that Cora managed to nerve tap a couple of low level flunkies.

----------


## Traab

> So far it has not seen like an attempt to kill Archon staff. 
> More like that one of the hired Supers has sufficiently low care for human life, that witnesses just gets burned by default. 
> 
> But i dont think its Sciona thats involved. 
> It seem a little to swiftly for her to build this amount of resources. 
> And also a needless risk, when she is in a position to build a solid power base in a rather lawless place.
> 
> I do think prime suspect is whatever jerk held cementia captive.


Hasnt it been a couple months since sciona events took place? The whole time shenanigans thing left me a bit confused on the timeline.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> It in turn sounds unlikely that the guy Cora exploded was the brain behind the organisation. 
> I certainly cant see a reason for why whoever had Cementia captive would go him/her self instead of sending a disposeable minion.


He may not have any disposable minions, or at least none he could trust with this job. Or perhaps he's just a hands-on guy, and wants to be involved personally. And I think you are erring by analyzing the situation with its outcome in mind; as far as he knew, going in person to oversee Sydney's capture was not a risky situation, since he could remain out of sight until Concretia neutralized the orbs. He had no way of knowing that Sydney's glasses were a cell phone.




> We have also not been told anything about the organisation getting wiped out. 
> Only that Cora managed to nerve tap a couple of low level flunkies.


Well, if we assume that the guy Cora murdered was the head of the organization, it seems likely that yacht was his base of operations and the whole organization got taken out when it was raided. On the other hand, if we assume the guy was just a mid-level flunky, then there probably was more to the group than that one unit. Time will tell which assumption is correct, I suppose.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Hasnt it been a couple months since sciona events took place? The whole time shenanigans thing left me a bit confused on the timeline.


It has, not nearly long enough.




> He may not have any disposable minions, or at least none he could trust with this job. Or perhaps he's just a hands-on guy, and wants to be involved personally. And I think you are erring by analyzing the situation with its outcome in mind; as far as he knew, going in person to oversee Sydney's capture was not a risky situation, since he could remain out of sight until Concretia neutralized the orbs. He had no way of knowing that Sydney's glasses were a cell phone.


Im not analyzing anything. Im telling my original reading of the comic. 
The goon Cora exploded absolutely didnt seem like he had the degree of competence to pull something like this off. 
He wasnt treated like the master mind by the other hooded minions.

And Cora herself seemed to think they were just low rank, when she commented on them running back to consult their handler.
At no point did she assume she had shot their handler.

Also i dont know. capturing and interogating a heroine? 
Sounds about as risky as tasks get. So many things can go wrong. From a friend showing up.
To Sydney having a secret move they wasnt prepared for. And then eat tank beam.




> Well, if we assume that the guy Cora murdered was the head of the organization, it seems likely that yacht was his base of operations and the whole organization got taken out when it was raided. On the other hand, if we assume the guy was just a mid-level flunky, then there probably was more to the group than that one unit. Time will tell which assumption is correct, I suppose.


I think they had access to too many things, and to big a scope, to be limited to a single yacht

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Im not analyzing anything. Im telling my original reading of the comic. 
> The goon Cora exploded absolutely didnt seem like he had the degree of competence to pull something like this off. 
> He wasnt treated like the master mind by the other hooded minions.
> 
> And Cora herself seemed to think they were just low rank, when she commented on them running back to consult their handler.
> At no point did she assume she had shot their handler.
> 
> Also i dont know. capturing and interogating a heroine? 
> Sounds about as risky as tasks get. So many things can go wrong. From a friend showing up.
> ...


These are all good points, and it's entirely possible that I'm wrong about the organization having been wiped out. I will say that, if the organization was intended to be a recurring thing, it's a bit odd that there wasn't any sort of name or logo or other identifying symbol given when they were first introduced, but then again perhaps they weren't intended to be a recurring threat at that time.

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## Radar

> These are all good points, and it's entirely possible that I'm wrong about the organization having been wiped out. I will say that, if the organization was intended to be a recurring thing, it's a bit odd that there wasn't any sort of name or logo or other identifying symbol given when they were first introduced, but then again perhaps they weren't intended to be a recurring threat at that time.


Or finding out what kind of organization is behind this will be part of the plot. Also, why would a *secret* organization have any kind of logo or anything else that would help outsiders in identifying its members?

----------


## lord_khaine

Well. if i was leading a huge, international organisation using enslaver/bribed supers. 
Then i would give each expendable little cell its own name. To make it harder for heroes to spot they were dealing with a huge organisation.

In this specific case, i assume it was simply a teaser, or whatever the term is.
Reveal a little bit of the organisation. And what it does. Then move the plot on.

So its more established in the world that these guys exist, when they for example attack Archon HQ.

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

> And to compound the issue, *its not like Sydney has any way to pick up sand on a industrial scale anyway.*


She's reaching for the flyball. Aetherium gateway. Space. Vacuum.

Preferably it'll be above the blasted ruin of the alien homeworld, rather than Junction.

----------


## lord_khaine

Oh yeah was that the gateway one?
Though.. no that still dont move sand on a industrial scale. 
At least not unless she can make the gateway quite a bit bigger than what we have seen previously.

I think perhaps people are failing to comprehend, just how BIG Darude is. 
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archi...asifat-ramlia/

Thats a mountain range he is climbing over.

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

> Oh yeah was that the gateway one?
> Though.. no that still dont move sand on a industrial scale. 
> At least not unless she can make the gateway quite a bit bigger than what we have seen previously.
> 
> I think perhaps people are failing to comprehend, just how BIG Darude is. 
> https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archi...asifat-ramlia/
> 
> Thats a mountain range he is climbing over.


Well the only other stupid thing I could see her try to pull off, is a tornado. She can fly at what, Mach 16 now? And she doesn't get dizzy. Embiggen the shield, and fly a circular pattern around the area at hypersonic speed, try to create a whirlwind and suck up all the sand around the area into one place. It would fit her cartoonish MO. But I don't know if that's the kind of stupid she is shooting for, here.

I would have personally gone for trying to remove sand from the area rather than gather it all up. But yeah, I guess the causeway would have to be a lot bigger to have a noticeable effect.

----------


## lord_khaine

I mean, at the moment Darude is about the size of a geological feature. 
Its kinda hard to imagine what would affect him that didnt involve author fiat. 

Well perhaps except something silly like flying Parfait up into the middle of the sandstorm, then give her dress a good yank at the top.

----------


## Traab

Oh dear god, im getting kung fu hustle vibes from this poor merc. He is going to be taking an inordinate number of debilitating and painful injuries that never quite put him down for good as comic relief isnt he? Now he just needs another 5 throwing knives and a crate of venomous snakes to hit him.

----------


## lord_khaine

Alright im in turn extremely disapointed with Magma face, and the general quality of mooks here.
If he is defeated by a fire extinguisher. Then all signs point to a guy with an assult rifle being a bigger danger.

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

> Alright im in turn extremely disapointed with Magma face, and the general quality of mooks here.
> If he is defeated by a fire extinguisher. Then all signs point to a guy with an assult rifle being a bigger danger.


To be fair, there's more than just the fire extinguisher in play here. Varia could have probably done the same thing with a baton or any other blunt object, the extinguisher just lets her avoid burns or losing any more hair than strictly necessary.

----------


## lord_khaine

Thats not really improving things are it?  :Small Tongue: 
At least a baton is a weapon. This still kinda shows a guy with an assult rifle would have been a bigger issue.

----------


## Radar

> Alright im in turn extremely disapointed with Magma face, and the general quality of mooks here.
> If he is defeated by a fire extinguisher. Then all signs point to a guy with an assult rifle being a bigger danger.


I'd say it is a case of "I have the POWER!" vs "I have military training". Magma face clearly has no combat training whatsoever and uses his powers ineffectively. Sure, he dodged a knife but has turned away from the enemy and took a moment to look at the wounded mook instead of engaging said enemy. no professional would do that.

----------


## Dragonus45

This is a sad showing from OPFOR. I hope this is just wave one coming in and we get to see some some more interesting fights.

----------


## The Glyphstone

I'd rather get back to the more interesting fight that we interrupted for this scene.

----------


## Keltest

> I'd rather get back to the more interesting fight that we interrupted for this scene.


On the one hand yes, on the other hand the timing is too coincidental for this to not be coordinated.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Pyro guy will make an interesting prisoner. I wonder if the strong guy is smarter.

----------


## Mechalich

> On the one hand yes, on the other hand the timing is too coincidental for this to not be coordinated.


Not necessarily. A third party with access to some kind of super-surveillance ability or a psychic or something similar could easily keep tabs on both Archon HQ and Deus' HQ. Such a person would recognize that at present ArcSwat's heavy hitters are very much occupied and now is an excellent opportunity to send in the strike team according to the plan they've had in place for weeks or even months. 

I mean, this is pretty normal in a superhero universe with a Superman-Expy like Maxima. Every villainous megalomaniac has a 'list of plans to be enacted ASAP' and also a 'list of plans to be enacted only when Superman is busy/off-planet/mentally disabled.' And if you're a talented supervillain you have forces on standby to take advantage of whenever a 'no superman' window appears.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Not necessarily. A third party with access to some kind of super-surveillance ability or a psychic or something similar could easily keep tabs on both Archon HQ and Deus' HQ. Such a person would recognize that at present ArcSwat's heavy hitters are very much occupied and now is an excellent opportunity to send in the strike team according to the plan they've had in place for weeks or even months.


You dont even need anything this complex to find out. A bugged phone on a minor official, complaining about all the additional work the trip of this Archon bigwig is creating. 
Or a hacked database at whatever place does flight plans, registering one from Archon HQ to Galten. Finding this out is easy even with normal methods. 

And yeah. Once this is registered its easy to trigger plan Smash&Grab.

----------


## Traab

Am I the only one who thinks the color choice of the previous comic is interesting? Last three panels arianna's skirt has the color tint from the fire making it look more like its see through. Reminded me a bit of that Star Power web comic where our MC in her super suit often looked like she was naked over her naughty bits due to the color scheme of the outfit.

----------


## Traab

And now Varia is naked Maxima.

----------


## Shining Wrath

I think Hiro is about to open a largish can of whoop-mook.

It looks like that was a taser fired at Hiro that stuck in the door. And they were using knockout gas? Are they trying to take the Supers as prisoners, while killing the ordinary mortals like Arianna?

----------


## Traab

> I think Hiro is about to open a largish can of whoop-mook.
> 
> It looks like that was a taser fired at Hiro that stuck in the door. And they were using knockout gas? Are they trying to take the Supers as prisoners, while killing the ordinary mortals like Arianna?


If I had to guess, going by author note, the initial plan was to shut down power, sneak in, drug everyone in their room, then do what they came to do. Unfortunately, our resident IT guy was on the ball and able to set off the alarm at which point the orders probably went "no witnesses". Had the drugs worked they wouldnt have any info to work with. Same probably for the tazers. They havent had the chance to break out the lethal ordinance yet.

----------


## lord_khaine

I am confused about why Hiro is bothering with the door shield.
He is more than bullet proof. So anything able to hurt him would go through it like tissue paper.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> I am confused about why Hiro is bothering with the door shield.
> He is more than bullet proof. So anything able to hurt him would go through it like tissue paper.


I think it's reasonable for him to be a bit cautious. Yes, an ordinary taser wouldn't affect him, but he doesn't know for sure that these guys are equipped with ordinary tasers. After all, why would you shoot an ordinary taser at a bulletproof superhero?

----------


## sihnfahl

> I think it's reasonable for him to be a bit cautious. Yes, an ordinary taser wouldn't affect him, but he doesn't know for sure that these guys are equipped with ordinary tasers. After all, why would you shoot an ordinary taser at a bulletproof superhero?


Considering how many goons try to shoot Superman in issue after issue, despite everyone knowing normal bullets don't stop him?

And if they were expecting only to encounter non-supers, well...

----------


## Dragonus45

> I think it's reasonable for him to be a bit cautious. Yes, an ordinary taser wouldn't affect him, but he doesn't know for sure that these guys are equipped with ordinary tasers. After all, why would you shoot an ordinary taser at a bulletproof superhero?


You know, I am betting that if it were capable of a big enough jolt a taser might be a great option for dealing with people who are bullet proof. Electricity still flows through their muscles and some of shock of it is like nervous system level response. Might depend a lot on the nature of the powers and of the setting but I could see it working.

----------


## halfeye

> They havent had the chance to break out the lethal ordinance yet.


They were firing bullets, those are usually considered potentially lethal. I think "these goons are idiots" best fits the case.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> They were firing bullets, those are usually considered potentially lethal. I think "these goons are idiots" best fits the case.


It's almost as though criminals don't join up as an alternative to careers in nuclear physics.

----------


## Traab

> They were firing bullets, those are usually considered potentially lethal. I think "these goons are idiots" best fits the case.


Those are different goons, who are dealing with already being discovered. These guys setup a door bar trap to gas heatwaves and hiros rooms, so they couldnt casually open the door, hopefully buying enough time for the gas to put them under. Unfortunately, they were already awake and somewhat alert so they both broke out at the same time and overwhelmed these guys before they could put down the less lethal ordinance and pickup their guns. Heck, i wouldnt be surprised if the taser was for their next target instead. Someone less bulletproof like one of the harem bodies And when they busted down the door the guy just hit the trigger on the taser by reflex. 

Overall I rank this attack a C+. They had a plan, they had tools to take down their targets, but they lacked the ability to adapt to their ambush being blown adequately. Had the infiltration gone off without setting off the alarm, like if leon had spent a precious 10 seconds confirming the problem before going on high alert, they would have been able to gas each room one by one in near silence and probably subdue arcswat with minimal issue. Also, he was only there due to a late night booty call from his girlfriend. This was honestly bad luck on their part, who knows how long it would have taken for the alert to go out with a late night power outage?

----------


## lord_khaine

> You know, I am betting that if it were capable of a big enough jolt a taser might be a great option for dealing with people who are bullet proof. Electricity still flows through their muscles and some of shock of it is like nervous system level response. Might depend a lot on the nature of the powers and of the setting but I could see it working.


Well at the same time. If Hiro's toughness only extend to physical trauma. And his nerve system isnt protected.
Then its basically a crippling weakness when facing enemy supers. Suddenly he is at risk from anyone with ice, fire, acid or especially lightning powers.
At least if a guy with a hand held taser could pose a risk. 

We do know Max dont have this issue. She tanked lightning that would basically have turned a human to ash.
But she is of course 2 tiers of classification above Hiro.




> Those are different goons, who are dealing with already being discovered. These guys setup a door bar trap to gas heatwaves and hiros rooms, so they couldnt casually open the door, hopefully buying enough time for the gas to put them under. Unfortunately, they were already awake and somewhat alert so they both broke out at the same time and overwhelmed these guys before they could put down the less lethal ordinance and pickup their guns. Heck, i wouldnt be surprised if the taser was for their next target instead. Someone less bulletproof like one of the harem bodies And when they busted down the door the guy just hit the trigger on the taser by reflex.


That in turn sounds pretty reasonable. I dont think you could keep Hiro or Harem captive. But someone like heat wave might be viable. Or well tasering harem might shut all of her down. Perhaps not a bad idea.




> Overall I rank this attack a C+. They had a plan, they had tools to take down their targets, but they lacked the ability to adapt to their ambush being blown adequately. Had the infiltration gone off without setting off the alarm, like if leon had spent a precious 10 seconds confirming the problem before going on high alert, they would have been able to gas each room one by one in near silence and probably subdue arcswat with minimal issue. Also, he was only there due to a late night booty call from his girlfriend. This was honestly bad luck on their part, who knows how long it would have taken for the alert to go out with a late night power outage?


Hmm. I am kinda uncertain about how they could have adapted to the alarm blowing at this stage. Except just try and rush the plan, gassing enough Archon members to make it matter.
I mean i dont think there is much you can do to Hiro and Stalvart with less than anti-tank weapons. And nothing you can do to Achilles except sit on him.

But yeah. Exceptionally bad stroke of luck, having Leon be kept awake. And within arms reach of the alarm button.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Well at the same time. If Hiro's toughness only extend to physical trauma. And his nerve system isnt protected.
> Then its basically a crippling weakness when facing enemy supers. Suddenly he is at risk from anyone with ice, fire, acid or especially lightning powers.
> At least if a guy with a hand held taser could pose a risk. 
> 
> We do know Max dont have this issue. She tanked lightning that would basically have turned a human to ash.
> But she is of course 2 tiers of classification above Hiro.


Max's invulnerability is an active power that creates a forcefield around herself. We don't know how Hiro's invulnerability works, except that it absorbs sonic attacks rather than just blocking or deflecting them.

Stalwart's toughness is due to increasing his density - which might also increase his electrical resistance, but against other attack types it might not help very much. Achilles... is immune to everything, for reasons, so a taser definitely wouldn't work on him.

----------


## lord_khaine

Max's invulnerability is actually 2 layers. A (almost) skin tight force field. And another layer of defence.
As she has survived having her field breached.

We dont know how Hiro's invulnerability works no. Except it has soaked up some fairly solid hits and immense pressure.
Sonic absorbtion seems a seperate thing.

The same with Stalvart. We dont know how his invulnerability work. 
Density control seems a seperate ability. That likely dont quite explain his degree of invulnerability.
At 4 dots he is just a point below Thor/hulk tier.

----------


## Traab

> Well at the same time. If Hiro's toughness only extend to physical trauma. And his nerve system isnt protected.
> Then its basically a crippling weakness when facing enemy supers. Suddenly he is at risk from anyone with ice, fire, acid or especially lightning powers.
> At least if a guy with a hand held taser could pose a risk. 
> 
> We do know Max dont have this issue. She tanked lightning that would basically have turned a human to ash.
> But she is of course 2 tiers of classification above Hiro.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Honestly, adapting the plan depends entirely on what their actual goal even IS. Like, if its grabbing supers like those alien bounty hunters tried with max, their best bet is to move as fast as possible, incapacitate whoever they can RIGHT NOW, then run for it. If their goal is to steal information or some specific items, their best bet is to get to where its stored, form a defensive position, and try to hold out till the team grabs it, then bug out. If their goal was to cause some sort of havoc, such as a lightning raid, kill/capture random people and destroy portions of the headquarters in an attempt to make archon look bad at being unable to hold off an attack, im not sure what they could do besides hope for the best and continue on. Also, it seems they have only two supers, the rest are probably normal goons. Though in this setting they could be like Twice from MHA and be disposable clones wearing concealing gear so the secret isnt exposed. But yeah, that seems to be oddly light for an assault on a building stuffed to the brim with supers who are trained or at worst int raining to use their powers in combat. Which is why its starting to look like xmen 2 with the stryker raid on the school as wolverine comes out and starts gutting people. Highly trained soldiers can only do so much against opponents so far beyond them. They only got as many captive kids as they did because they got into the building and caught a few before the alarm even went out.

----------


## lord_khaine

Thats also a relevant point. We do not know what the heck they want.
Capturing supers are likely going to be wildly impractical. Unless you got someone with mind control powers of course. 

Question then remains what goal they can have. It seems unlikely Archon has to much stuff of value. 
Besides i guess information. A quick smash&grap still seem most likely.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

Archon also has a lot of cutting edge technology; stealing some could be worth the risk. And for people in the know, might actually be less risky than targeting Deus' company.

----------


## Traab

> Thats also a relevant point. We do not know what the heck they want.
> Capturing supers are likely going to be wildly impractical. Unless you got someone with mind control powers of course. 
> 
> Question then remains what goal they can have. It seems unlikely Archon has to much stuff of value. 
> Besides i guess information. A quick smash&grap still seem most likely.


Capturing supers could involve goals that dont require willing participation. No need to mind control if your goal is to say, dissect hiro and figure out how he can do what he does, in order to grant that ability to your own troops. There is also the potential for non mind control brainwashing. After all, this is a super hero comic, and we all know about the winter soldier as an example so its certainly within the realm of the feasible in this medium. And we cant forget supernatural mind control as an option that exists. So even straight up mind control powers are potentially on the table in a couple forms. But yeah, we need to know what the goal is.

----------


## Radar

One thing is sure: the attackers do want something or someone out of Archon HQ - otherwise they would just bomb the place immediately after gaining access. What exactly do they want, we hopefully get to know relatively soon.

----------


## lord_khaine

Hmm.. that is a good point.
Though in turn. Supers are kinda priceless assets most vulnerable when asleep (and hence predictable in their position).
I would personally place their rooms in the reinforced bunker part of Archon HQ.

----------


## Traab

The problem with that is, since that would create regular traffic to and from said bunker, that makes it more likely to be open and vulnerable during an attack. After all, the supers have to LEAVE said bunker to start fighting.

----------


## lord_khaine

Would mean a slightly longer response time, of perhaps a minutte or two, in case of a sudden alarm.
If the Archon members are sleeping in the reinforced basement.
That still seems like a decent tradeoff to not lose the entire team to someone crashing a plane into the building.

----------


## Traab

> Would mean a slightly longer response time, of perhaps a minutte or two, in case of a sudden alarm.
> If the Archon members are sleeping in the reinforced basement.
> That still seems like a decent tradeoff to not lose the entire team to someone crashing a plane into the building.


I would imagine the base is in a no fly zone, government buildings like that often are. Meaning an incoming kamikaze is going to provide plenty of warning its incoming before it gets shot down by one of the several heroes capable of doing so, or any anti air defensive installations nearby. And even if they did sleep in said bunker, that just means that at best they are trapped for an unknown length of time buried in tons of burning rubble on top of their exit. 

Honestly, I think overall its a matter of security versus convenience and a balance has to be maintained. Sure you could create 90 layers of security that have to be passed every time you go anywhere that constantly are rotated to avoid infiltrators, but there is generally not even remotely that much security because the cost, delays, and general annoyance factor of dealing with it all day every day causes its own problems for little to no gain. *EDIT* And as for todays target, more faceless goons are wiped out by people with no idea whats going on. Also us, we still have no idea whats going on either.

----------


## The Glyphstone

It's moments like this that really draw attention out of the narrative itself and to Dave's pacing. We are currently in our 3rd real-life week covering the same 30-second span of time in 3 separate parts of the building.

----------


## halfeye

> I would imagine the base is in a no fly zone, government buildings like that often are. Meaning an incoming kamikaze is going to provide plenty of warning its incoming before it gets shot down by one of the several heroes capable of doing so, or any anti air defensive installations nearby.


That the literal Pentagon didn't have? admittedly there are no supers in the real world.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> That the literal Pentagon didn't have? admittedly there are no supers in the real world.


What worked in 2001 wouldnt work in whatever year this is now.

----------


## lord_khaine

> What worked in 2001 wouldnt work in whatever year this is now.


What have to work in 2022, have to also work against any number of super powers.
And it cant. There are to many low scale super powers that could work to circumvent ordinary defences against a plane loaded with explosives. 

Hence i think stashing your supers in a reinforced basement is the very least thing to do while they sleep.

While as for being trapped for an unknown period of time beneath burried rubble? 
Well considering how strong Hiro/Stalvart are, i would think perhaps 5, to 10 min at top.




> It's moments like this that really draw attention out of the narrative itself and to Dave's pacing. We are currently in our 3rd real-life week covering the same 30-second span of time in 3 separate parts of the building.


Yeah.. i mean.. i get the need to give some of the minor faces a bit of screen time as well. 
All the same. Especially this comic. I think we could have done without.

edit.

At last. The plot moves a bit. Its revealed this clown show is a decoy.
Well. In that case. A bit more of a danger then. They certainly do the distraction part well.

----------


## Traab

Ah there we go. I thought the faceless goons were a bit too inept. I think I even floated the idea of them all being clones in an earlier comment. It took me WAY too long to figure out what goose did in the first panels. Like, I knew he shoved a minigun through the dude somehow but I forgot they had bayonets on them as a semi joke. Good god thats brutal!

----------


## Shining Wrath

If I were in charge of Archon base defense, I'd put the various supers in 3 or 4 different barracks, each barracks containing a mix of powers, with secure comms between them (as in, multiple physical wire paths buried & shielded). And also multiple secure paths to nearby government secure facilities. Basically, make the odds of taking out all supers without anyone knowing about it very close to zero.

Having someone with long-range sensing ability keeping an eye on Archon from several miles away should also be part of this. And a geosynch satellite watching for a cessation of a keep-alive signal from the base: "I'm still here and can communicate ... I'm still here and can communicate ...".

Anyway, the strong guy Hiro is fighting is a sacrificial lamb, too, not just Goon Squad. I wonder if he knows?

----------


## lord_khaine

The one Hiro is fighting is a pretty high tier super.
As seen by how Hiro isnt wiping the floor with him. 
So its quite possible he has some way of getting away.

----------


## Keltest

> The one Hiro is fighting is a pretty high tier super.
> As seen by how Hiro isnt wiping the floor with him. 
> So its quite possible he has some way of getting away.


In fairness, we dont see what happens when Hiro makes contact.

----------


## lord_khaine

It looked pretty even in the previous comic. Neither directly seemed to have the advantage.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Hiro appears to be wrestling with Strong Guy, but Strong Guy may be hoping to outrun someone who can fly.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well.. why should it be a hinderance to outrun someone just because they can fly?
Just for an example, the Flash could outrun anyone in this comic as long as the destination were on the ground.
Up to and including Maxima  :Small Tongue:

----------


## The Glyphstone

And somehow he still regularly managed to get snookered by a guy with a freeze ray. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## lord_khaine

Conclusion? Freeze Ray Op. Max should be glad the aliens only had a stasis beam.

----------


## Shining Wrath

The Flash cannot normally run through obstacles. Currently the battle is inside a building. Stairs and similar things give advantage to the flier.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> The Flash cannot normally run through obstacles. Currently the battle is inside a building. Stairs and similar things give advantage to the flier.


Really? I don't know much about the comics, but he got the ability to run through solid objects pretty early in the TV show.  :Small Confused:

----------


## Keltest

> Really? I don't know much about the comics, but he got the ability to run through solid objects pretty early in the TV show.


As I recall, its something that (some versions of) the Flash can do, but it usually takes some concentration and time for him to do it right, which makes it less viable as an off the cuff combat technique. By and large, Flash also really, really doesnt want to have to go all out to stop a villain, and his villains really dont want to push him that far, because that tends to end up with a villain slammed into a solid object at several times the speed of sound until he's paste. So people usually play nice with the Flash.

----------


## lord_khaine

> The Flash cannot normally run through obstacles. Currently the battle is inside a building. Stairs and similar things give advantage to the flier.


Honestly being inside a building is a disadvantage for the flier. Cellings gets in the way of your 3D mobility.

While just about every itteration of the Flash is able to run on walls and cellings.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Attention Dave: don't mention that there's a "real team" and then not show us the real team. Enough of stupid goon squad.

----------


## lord_khaine

So. Halo's mystery plan, subject of so much speculation, is finally revealed.
Turns out the reason there was so much discussion, is that there isnt anything that will work without author fiat.
Well. Assuming this actually works. 

I do call author fiat on this thing being big enough to matter. 
And if its big enough to matter. How the heck Darude overlooked it.
Thats basically overlooking someone replacing the carpet beneath you during a fight.

----------


## Keltest

> So. Halo's mystery plan, subject of so much speculation, is finally revealed.
> Turns out the reason there was so much discussion, is that there isnt anything that will work without author fiat.
> Well. Assuming this actually works. 
> 
> I do call author fiat on this thing being big enough to matter. 
> And if its big enough to matter. How the heck Darude overlooked it.
> Thats basically overlooking someone replacing the carpet beneath you during a fight.


Well presumably he was busy trying to murder Maxima. And Max really only needs a little bit of time of him being unable to replenish his sand to just come in and incapacitate him. Possibly lethally.

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

> So. Halo's mystery plan, subject of so much speculation, is finally revealed.
> Turns out the reason there was so much discussion, is that there isnt anything that will work without author fiat.
> Well. Assuming this actually works. 
> 
> I do call author fiat on this thing being big enough to matter. 
> And if its big enough to matter. How the heck Darude overlooked it.
> Thats basically overlooking someone replacing the carpet beneath you during a fight.


It seems Darude is really more "sandstorm" than "sand". He pulls sand in to replenish himself, rather than just being all the sand everywhere. He can't feel the sand, it's just his resource - if the "obsidian laserdisc" was done quickly enough he would only be aware of the problem once he tried to pull more sand in - i.e. kind of like the final battle in Big Hero Six.

Also it worked last time. Maxima glassed the desert for miles around, which was sufficient to prevent Darude from reforming.

My biggest issue with the plan is that we know what happens when the PPO interacts with sand. You get a sandsplosion due to the beam not being just a heat gun. Maybe since the rapidfire mode unlock Sydney has aperture controls on the beam as well, allowing for a wider, less explody variant.

----------


## lord_khaine

So busy with Max he could miss Sydney doing freaking terraforming with a giant laser? right beneath his feet?
Thats about cartoon level unaware of what goes around him.

Darude has enough control over his sand to try and force it into Max's lung.
But we are still expected to believe he overlooked the giant freaking laser flying in circles beneath his feet?
That the ground around him slowly turns purple?
And that he has increasingly less access to sand?

Its not that glassing the desert worked, that im objecting to. 
But that it was possible to get away with it uninterupted. 
The scale of this is hard to estimate. But it clearly have to be a couple square kilometers. 
Thats not done swiftly. Last it took Max 4 hours to reach that point.

----------


## Radar

> So busy with Max he could miss Sydney doing freaking terraforming with a giant laser? right beneath his feet?
> Thats about cartoon level unaware of what goes around him.
> 
> Darude has enough control over his sand to try and force it into Max's lung.
> But we are still expected to believe he overlooked the giant freaking laser flying in circles beneath his feet?
> That the ground around him slowly turns purple?
> And that he has increasingly less access to sand?
> 
> Its not that glassing the desert worked, that im objecting to. 
> ...


The way Max speaks about this, Darude does not seem to constantly replenish himself with sand - this action probably requires a lot of focus from him. So as long as he did not pull for more sand recently, he could very well be unaware of what was going on well below him. Considering that he is in the middle of a duel with Maxima he really has no luxury of not focusing on the opponent the whole time. And with all the dust in the air, it would have been difficult to take an incidental glance either.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Is it possible that Darude can't see through his own sandstorm? It's like seeing through your own body in a sense.

So he's in there, somewhere, fighting Maxima, and all around him is a cloud of reduced visibility.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Why is the ground purple when the sand wasn't purple?  :Small Confused:

----------


## Radar

> Is it possible that Darude can't see through his own sandstorm? It's like seeing through your own body in a sense.
> 
> So he's in there, somewhere, fighting Maxima, and all around him is a cloud of reduced visibility.


Through his own sand he can probably feel (otherwise it would be a pretty useless superpower), but if he needs particular effort to make sand his own, not all the dust lifted by the fight would be his sand.



> Why is the ground purple when the sand wasn't purple?


I'm really not sure to be honest. In the notes Dave refers to what Sidney made as obsidian but that would typically be black - decidedly not purple. Still, I would expect any kind of glass with less pronounced color. And frankly, with the scale of this operation, I am not sure if the melted sand would cool down fast enough to solidify just yet.

Out of curiosity: does anyone know, what kind of mineral Sydney would actually produce by rapidly overheating sand?

----------


## KillianHawkeye

My two minutes of Internet research tell me that obsidian is exclusively made by the cooling of lava and has nothing to do with melted sand.

----------


## Pax1138

As pointed out in the comments, back when Maxima was testing Sydney's shield, it also made purple glass.  Seems to just be what the art looks like in this comic for that.

----------


## Traab

It probably has to do with the color scheme of the comic. Regular black wouldnt look right on such a backdrop or something along those lines. And yes, 10 square kilometers turned to glass without either maxima or darude noticing? Sus. Especially since she had to detour around infrastructure to avoid doing cataclysmic damage to the country and its lines of supply and such. She can move many times the speed of sound, thats still a LOT of surface area to scour. Plus, her beam is pretty small in size considering it split a tank in half instead of leaving only the edges remaining. Like a foot or two wide at best. So unless she unlocked a wide beam like the flat setting on a garden hose, i call shenanigans.

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

> It probably has to do with the color scheme of the comic. Regular black wouldnt look right on such a backdrop or something along those lines. And yes, 10 square kilometers turned to glass without either maxima or darude noticing? Sus. Especially since she had to detour around infrastructure to avoid doing cataclysmic damage to the country and its lines of supply and such. She can move many times the speed of sound, thats still a LOT of surface area to scour. Plus, her beam is pretty small in size considering it split a tank in half instead of leaving only the edges remaining. Like a foot or two wide at best. So unless she unlocked a wide beam like the flat setting on a garden hose, i call shenanigans.


Yes, she'd have to have the firespray mode's aperture controls active on the beam to make wide passes. A 10km-diameter circle is like 78 million square meters. If she could only glass a 1-meter wide strip of desert with the laser, she'd have to travel at 78 thousand kph, or Mach 63, and it'd still take an hour. If she could glass 100-meter-wide strips, she could do it flying at Mach 2 in around 20 minutes.

Also obsidian is glass, rock that cooled too quickly to crystallize. Molten sand cools to glass, glass with all kinds of impurities in it becomes more opaque and more colored. So for all I know molten desert sand would cool to a violet color.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Considering that he is in the middle of a duel with Maxima he really has no luxury of not focusing on the opponent the whole time. And with all the dust in the air, it would have been difficult to take an incidental glance either.


He is one of the only people in the world who have that luxury. 
But he absolutely could stop for a 2-3 min smoke break in the middle of the fight if he could find a big enough cigarette.
He is the size of a geografic feature. Dodging is -not- a thing. Max is going to hit him no matter what.

Also the faster she is flying, the more absurd the energy requirement for her cutting beam becomes. 
If we say a layer of obsidian 2 mm deep, and 10 square km done in 20 min. minutte. Then its 20 m3 sand done in 20 min. Or 1 m3 of sand per minutte. 
Well i guess thats actually not unreasonable for an energy output.

----------


## Mechalich

The more confusing part to me is how has the desert cooled enough to form obsidian? Sydney may well have sufficient energy output to melt the surface of a 10km diameter circle of savannah (they are not in a desert, there's no desert for hundreds of miles in any direction), but both the air above that and the soil below it are going to be good insulators, it'll take a bit to cool down. There ought to be just a giant glowing yellow smear on the landscape.

----------


## Traab

> The more confusing part to me is how has the desert cooled enough to form obsidian? Sydney may well have sufficient energy output to melt the surface of a 10km diameter circle of savannah (they are not in a desert, there's no desert for hundreds of miles in any direction), but both the air above that and the soil below it are going to be good insulators, it'll take a bit to cool down. There ought to be just a giant glowing yellow smear on the landscape.


I think by this point we have confirmed that exactly zero percent of this whole thing makes sense from any angle whatsoever. Superman could have done this because the dude can basically heat vision everything in his field of vision at once if he wants, and has enough control to perform brain surgery with it as well. So he could fly high, look at the surrounding area, and heat blast it all at once to glass. Sydney does not have that option. Honestly, the ONLY part of this that makes sense to have her do instead of maxima is the worry about collateral. Max can explode the area into glass, but there are a lot of roads and farms and such all over the place that would be destroyed by such a thing. But that just means realistically the entire plan should be tossed.

Ok so this being stupid and making no sense aside, who wants to take bets on how deus will react to the glass lake thing?

----------


## Shining Wrath

Physics just went off to cry in the corner, joined by geology.

It's a comic about pretty people doing amazing things, not a science tutorial.

----------


## Dragonus45

Well that was anti climactic.

----------


## lord_khaine

It was anti climatic. And honestly also lame. 
The size of the idiot ball given to Darude was staggering. Not only did he fail to notice about 10 km2 of geographic feature forming beneath his feet.
He also waited on refreshing sand until he was basically on the brink of going OOS. 




> who wants to take bets on how deus will react to the glass lake thing?


But well Deus is certainly not going to mind.
This is a chance to be gracious for the help given in protecting his country and productive facility.
So he will officially thank everyone involved. Possibly even hand out a small medal.

----------


## Keltest

> It was anti climatic. And honestly also lame. 
> The size of the idiot ball given to Darude was staggering. Not only did he fail to notice about 10 km2 of geographic feature forming beneath his feet.
> He also waited on refreshing sand until he was basically on the brink of going OOS. 
> 
> 
> 
> But well Deus is certainly not going to mind.
> This is a chance to be gracious for the help given in protecting his country and productive facility.
> So he will officially thank everyone involved. Possibly even hand out a small medal.


Eh, how much attention could you spare to the landscape if Maxima was trying to beat you to death?

----------


## lord_khaine

> Eh, how much attention could you spare to the landscape if Maxima was trying to beat you to death?


I could spare 100% as it would not matter. 

Darude can also spare 100% as getting smacked dont really affect him.

Also there is a difference between sparing attention. And spotting if someone are changing the carpet beneath your feets.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> I could spare 100% as it would not matter. 
> 
> Darude can also spare 100% as getting smacked dont really affect him.
> 
> Also there is a difference between sparing attention. And spotting if someone are changing the carpet beneath your feets.


To be fair, the carpet is being changed _while you are flying_. It's more akin to someone working on the plumbing in the crawl space beneath the house while you're having a running gun battle on multiple floors.

And getting smacked does affect him; it's how Maxima "got him burned down", previous strip.

----------


## Traab

Waiting to control more sand is kind of a strategic choice too be honest. If he diverts to ground level to gather more sand or however he has to take control of it, it leaves maxima free to wide angle blast him and his current supply, removing a lot in one go. If he waits till he is almost out, then he loses the least amount of current sand grabbing the next wave of it. At least, thats the best argument I can come up with. I imagine he cant just blink and make the desert appear in midair, there is probably some sort of thing he has to do to take control of a vast amount of it.




> To be fair, the carpet is being changed _while you are flying_. It's more akin to someone working on the plumbing in the crawl space beneath the house while you're having a running gun battle on multiple floors.
> 
> And getting smacked does affect him; it's how Maxima "got him burned down", previous strip.


From what dave said, she needs to destroy his sand to the point where he cant sublimate his body into the element before she can properly smack him one. Think Pica from One Piece. He can take over mt rushmore and animate it, but its not his real body. His real body is contained somewhere within it but until you chop it down to sub human size, you cant really hurt him. Thats what she was doing all this time, burning sand till he couldnt use it and reducing his sandstorm form till he was basically mostly human then POW! Right in the kisser!

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

It's also worth considering that he may have been intentionally throwing the fight. For instance, if this was one of Deus' ploys.

----------


## Pax1138

> It's also worth considering that he may have been intentionally throwing the fight. For instance, if this was one of Deus' ploys.


If it was a Deus plot, I hope he enjoys his new glass parking lot.

----------


## lord_khaine

> To be fair, the carpet is being changed while you are flying. It's more akin to someone working on the plumbing in the crawl space beneath the house while you're having a running gun battle on multiple floors.
> 
> And getting smacked does affect him; it's how Maxima "got him burned down", previous strip.


Yes. If we are being fair, then its 10 km2 of carpet, and its being changed by a massive glowing death ray. 

While on getting smacked, when he wasnt holding a couple idiot balls he lasted 4 hours. 
I dont count that as affected to a significant degree in context.




> Waiting to control more sand is kind of a strategic choice too be honest. If he diverts to ground level to gather more sand or however he has to take control of it, it leaves maxima free to wide angle blast him and his current supply, removing a lot in one go. If he waits till he is almost out, then he loses the least amount of current sand grabbing the next wave of it. At least, thats the best argument I can come up with. I imagine he cant just blink and make the desert appear in midair, there is probably some sort of thing he has to do to take control of a vast amount of it.


This sounds more like an attempt to excuse a bit of bad storytelling than anything else.
Maxima flies. So she should be able to blast from any angle anyway.
But when Darude were mountain sized he in turn should have been able to constantly suck up sand.




> From what dave said, she needs to destroy his sand to the point where he cant sublimate his body into the element before she can properly smack him one. Think Pica from One Piece. He can take over mt rushmore and animate it, but its not his real body. His real body is contained somewhere within it but until you chop it down to sub human size, you cant really hurt him. Thats what she was doing all this time, burning sand till he couldnt use it and reducing his sandstorm form till he was basically mostly human then POW! Right in the kisser!


And thats why im railing at the staggering size of the idiot ball given to Darude. 
He was burned down from freaking mountain sized, to human, before he decided "oh perhaps i need more sand?"




> It's also worth considering that he may have been intentionally throwing the fight. For instance, if this was one of Deus' ploys.


This i think, is basically the only explanation that dont require the villain to be a staggering idiot.




> If it was a Deus plot, I hope he enjoys his new glass parking lot.


He likely does yeah. 
Either its a tourist attraction. Else removing it is a drop in the ocean on his budget.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Yes. If we are being fair, then its 10 km2 of carpet, and its being changed by a massive glowing death ray. 
> 
> While on getting smacked, when he wasnt holding a couple idiot balls he lasted 4 hours. 
> I dont count that as affected to a significant degree in context.
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds more like an attempt to excuse a bit of bad storytelling than anything else.
> Maxima flies. So she should be able to blast from any angle anyway.
> ...


I note that the minute Darude hit the ground, Team Deus showed up to claim him. So the likelihood of a double-cross (Deus cut-out hires Darude to attack, lies and promises support, obviously doesn't supply it) of some sort is on the table.

----------


## The Glyphstone

> I note that the minute Darude hit the ground, Team Deus showed up to claim him. So the likelihood of a double-cross (Deus cut-out hires Darude to attack, lies and promises support, obviously doesn't supply it) of some sort is on the table.


Though this could also be explained by a good set of binoculars - Deus wasn't at all unaware of the attack, considering he gave Maxima her respirator. He'll probably claim justification based on some clause of Galtyn law to hold and prosecute Darud.

----------


## Traab

> Though this could also be explained by a good set of binoculars - Deus wasn't at all unaware of the attack, considering he gave Maxima her respirator. He'll probably claim justification based on some clause of Galtyn law to hold and prosecute Darud.


I mean, it only makes sense. Dude attacked him and his base. He was defeated there, he is now a POW as far as international law is likely to care. Possibly just a war criminal depending on his official backing. Max isnt there on official orders to ally with deus so she really doesnt have any authority to decide what happens to this guy. Thanks for the help, we got it from here more or less covers it. Plus they just outright teleported him away while teleporting themselves in so its not like max can do much beyond object. Which she probably will do as soon as she gets a new outfit and goes back to deus. On the amusing plus side, he is surprisingly easy to keep prisoner. Keep him in a clean room. No dust dirt or sand for him to manipulate. I mean, he did just take a direct max face punch and plummet an excessive distance to the ground and not explode from either of those things so there will likely be more involved to hold someone with a high enough brute rating to tank that, but aside from that, yeah, he needs a good old fashioned clean room.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Though this could also be explained by a good set of binoculars - Deus wasn't at all unaware of the attack, considering he gave Maxima her respirator. He'll probably claim justification based on some clause of Galtyn law to hold and prosecute Darud.


Looking at the time frame involved in the fight.
Then yeah Deus could likely have finished his lunch, read the headline news, and then called Opal to pick up Vale and go arrest the sandstorm.

While.. well Darude is what Deus decides he is i guess.
Though i dont think POW is appliable if he isnt officially working for another nation.
Possibly just a saboteur.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Looking at the time frame involved in the fight.
> Then yeah Deus could likely have finished his lunch, read the headline news, and then called Opal to pick up Vale and go arrest the sandstorm.
> 
> While.. well Darude is what Deus decides he is i guess.
> Though i dont think POW is appliable if he isnt officially working for another nation.
> Possibly just a saboteur.


Mercenary, and I have no idea how the Geneva Conventions treat those.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well he isnt a mercenary if he isnt being paid by anyone.

----------


## Keltest

> Well he isnt a mercenary if he isnt being paid by anyone.


Thats not strictly true. Plenty of mercenaries act(ed) as bandits in their spare time. The need for food and money doesnt go away just because youre between jobs after all, and they have a fairly specific skillset. The history of a lot of regions has been shaped by rich lords hiring mercenary armies to fight their enemies, winning, and ending the contracts without dumping the mercs somewhere else first.

----------


## Gez

> Mercenary, and I have no idea how the Geneva Conventions treat those.


Protocol I, Article 47§1: "A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war."

To this we can add the 2001 United Nations Mercenary Convention which basically makes everything related to mercenary work -- including recruiting, training, and financing of them -- illegal. Meaning that any mercenary is automatically a war criminal and an unlawful combatant, and if captured is denied POW status and all the special protections that go with it. They can be tried as common criminals, even if only for the crime of being a mercenary.





> Well he isnt a mercenary if he isnt being paid by anyone.


The alternative to being treated as a mercenary is being treated as a terrorist. Same result either way.

----------


## Traab

So this was a nice update, max demanding the prisoner for very good reason, deus going through the numbers when deciding if he should be upset while also doing a quick bit of game theory on how else the battle could have been fought and deciding that yeah, sydney made a good call and he will profit from this overall. I liked that quick set of mental math he went through including being willing to hand him over to max after he gets first crack at him, which is fair, he was captured attacking his people on his territory (sorta, its still technically in flux but he holds it) And of course the chance to get info on an elemental type of power is nice. 

Its funny but its nice that every now and then we get outside confirmation that sydney is actually quite competent in an emergency and generally speaking does the right thing to handle the scenario even without orders. Deus is a super genius and the best alternate even he could come up with (going by what info he has on her powers) was bubbling darude which he acknowledges would stick her inside with him. HUGE risk, as even capturing max inside as well it cant be certain that she could put him down before he would lash out at sydney and hurt her bad. Vehemence was a gamble, but a semi reasonable one as he had already demonstrated liking her and not wanting to kill anyone, darude was on the warpath. Yes glassing the area is extreme, but when facing an extreme threat, extreme responses are acceptable. Especially when they both work, and are less than estimated destruction in a protracted battle. She is flighty, hyper, often annoying in casual scenarios, but sydney is honestly REALLY GOOD at super battle problem solving. Im starting to see why post flashback she is a corporal already. Honestly, I would be putting her to work with an assortment of other recent grads as a squad leader and running her through all sorts of game theory to see how well she can apply this problem solving on a squad level rather than just herself. Also giving her classes on what it means to lead said squad and the duties involved. I doubt she will ever be an enlisted officer with her personality, but a sarge level authority figure? I could see that.

----------


## Radar

> Also giving her classes on what it means to lead said squad and the duties involved. I doubt she will ever be an enlisted officer with her personality, but a sarge level authority figure? I could see that.


Which would probably lead to an often use of Maxim 2: _A Sergeant in motion outranks a Lieutenant who doesn't know what's going on._

----------


## Gez

> max demanding the prisoner for very good reason


That's not her call, really.

Normally, the federal government of the USA should have to request extradition of this person. And then, in the absence of extradition agreements between Galtyn's Gulch and the USA, it's up to Deus to decide on a case-by-case basis whether to agree with or reject the demand.

----------


## Mechalich

> That's not her call, really.
> 
> Normally, the federal government of the USA should have to request extradition of this person. And then, in the absence of extradition agreements between Galtyn's Gulch and the USA, it's up to Deus to decide on a case-by-case basis whether to agree with or reject the demand.


While it's not her call, all it takes it one phone call and the extradition request will be sitting on Deus' desk in minutes, so the number of skipped steps here is fairly small.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> While it's not her call, all it takes it one phone call and the extradition request will be sitting on Deus' desk in minutes, so the number of skipped steps here is fairly small.


Everyone knows that Deus' claim over Galtyn might not hold up to legal scrutiny and he's counting on fait accompli and no one caring enough to do something. What he doesn't want is for the US State Department to start making phone calls about the "Galtyn crisis" and all of a sudden he's on the agenda for the next USSC meeting.

----------


## Traab

> Everyone knows that Deus' claim over Galtyn might not hold up to legal scrutiny and he's counting on fait accompli and no one caring enough to do something. What he doesn't want is for the US State Department to start making phone calls about the "Galtyn crisis" and all of a sudden he's on the agenda for the next USSC meeting.


Its even worse than that for deus. He is currently mid invasion of another nation iirc. The absolute LAST thing he wants is things going through official international channels. Wait a sec, isnt he using the old tyrants son as a puppet? Like, everyone knows who rules there, but OFFICIALLY he is just a minister of finance or whatever?

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Its even worse than that for deus. He is currently mid invasion of another nation iirc. The absolute LAST thing he wants is things going through official international channels. Wait a sec, isnt he using the old tyrants son as a puppet? Like, everyone knows who rules there, but OFFICIALLY he is just a minister of finance or whatever?


We also don't know how ethical he is in business - although as a super-genius he probably doesn't need to cheat. My read of him is that beating you within the rules is more fun than cheating.

----------


## lord_khaine

> So this was a nice update, max demanding the prisoner for very good reason


Actually its BS reasons. What Darude did he did to an invading army.
I am pretty certain there are international rules regarding dragging foreign soldiers home to prosecute them.




> but sydney is honestly REALLY GOOD at super battle problem solving.


Its not to hard to be really good, when your opponent has been dipped in glue and idiot balls.




> Everyone knows that Deus' claim over Galtyn might not hold up to legal scrutiny and he's counting on fait accompli and no one caring enough to do something. What he doesn't want is for the US State Department to start making phone calls about the "Galtyn crisis" and all of a sudden he's on the agenda for the next USSC meeting.


What legal scrutiny? he controls it. Thats all there is to it.
And its seemingly a bit of afrika without oil. So noone cares about it.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Actually its BS reasons. What Darude did he did to an invading army.
> I am pretty certain there are international rules regarding dragging foreign soldiers home to prosecute them.


But he did it as a 'terrorist' presumably, so he's still considered a criminal.

----------


## Mechalich

> Actually its BS reasons. What Darude did he did to an invading army.
> I am pretty certain there are international rules regarding dragging foreign soldiers home to prosecute them.


Not how it works.

It is strongly implied that Darude fought US forces in Iraq _after_ the collapse of Saddam Hussein's regime. At that point there were, legally speaking, no soldiers under arms in opposition to the US - because the new Iraqi government and new Iraqi army allied to US goals - only 'rebels' or 'terrorists' who have a very different legal status. While the treatment of such Unlawful Enemy Combatants is politically complex (and cannot be discussed here), they are not covered by international law agreements regarding Prisoners of War because they are not considered to be such.




> Everyone knows that Deus' claim over Galtyn might not hold up to legal scrutiny and he's counting on fait accompli and no one caring enough to do something. What he doesn't want is for the US State Department to start making phone calls about the "Galtyn crisis" and all of a sudden he's on the agenda for the next USSC meeting.


There's actually multiple claims in question. There's the original plot of less than Rhode Island sized land that formed the core of Galytn (which Dave has stated is the little spur of land at the southern tip of Malawi, meaning Galytn's capital is probably in the same location as the real-life city of Nsanje). His claim to this region is fairly strong, since he's held it for a while now and has extensive popular support in the area. Also the region was initially disputed anyway. His claims to the territories he's acquired since, whether through nominally willing cessation or outright conquest, are much more tenuous, since other nations - specifically Malawi, Zambia, and most recently Mozambique - have claim to those lands. And while those nations lack the power to actually stop Deus themselves, they can appeal to more potent states to ally and support them through such mechanisms as the UN and African Union.

----------


## lord_khaine

> But he did it as a 'terrorist' presumably, so he's still considered a criminal.


Well yeah because you strip away protection by calling him that instead of enemy soldier.




> Not how it works.


Yes. Hence i rest my case on the BS bit.
As how it works is the one with the most nukes/supers decides how it works.
Including when invading a foreign sovereign nation. 

While i dont think enough of the situation has been explained to clearly imply anything.
And i will claim, that had that mess been between single civilian individuals under a civilian court.
Then Darude would likely go free.

Edit. 
To expand my point. Im not arguing its legal. I contested the claim that Max's claim on Darude were justified. 
You can honestly even make arguments for Darude's actions this time being justified. As he tried to put an end to a demon summoning conquer.

----------


## Keltest

> Well yeah because you strip away protection by calling him that instead of enemy soldier.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Hence i rest my case on the BS bit.
> As how it works is the one with the most nukes/supers decides how it works.
> Including when invading a foreign sovereign nation. 
> 
> While i dont think enough of the situation has been explained to clearly imply anything.
> ...


I mean, he was already a wanted criminal before he showed up today. He just had a pretty good disguise as a dead guy until now.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I mean, he was already a wanted criminal before he showed up today. He just had a pretty good disguise as a dead guy until now.


Objection! He isnt a criminal before judged guilty by a jury of his peers!  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Keltest

> Objection! He isnt a criminal before judged guilty by a jury of his peers!


Technically he only needs to have committed the crime. His legal culpability is only related so much as having actually done a crime makes it harder to be acquitted of it.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Technically he only needs to have committed the crime. His legal culpability is only related so much as having actually done a crime makes it harder to be acquitted of it.


Well. You still also have to prove he has commited a crime. 
Or well find agreement to it. I guess as such both he and Max are heroes to some and villains to others.

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

> I contested the claim that Max's claim on Darude were justified.


It's justified by "Me and my colleague here minimized the damage this individual would have caused to your organization, and he's wanted by our government, so how about you turn him over as gratitude?"

Basically, dibs.

----------


## Gez

> Actually its BS reasons. What Darude did he did to an invading army.


No, since the whole scene happened within Gatling proper, as they attacked the headquarters during Arc's diplomatic visit. So it's not in contested land, and therefore doesn't represent an attack on an invading army.

----------


## lord_khaine

> It's justified by "Me and my colleague here minimized the damage this individual would have caused to your organization, and he's wanted by our government, so how about you turn him over as gratitude?"
> 
> Basically, dibs.


Dibs are basically the opposite of a justified claim  :Small Tongue: 
If you catch a thief in USA its not justified dragging him off to china because the gouvernment want him there either.




> No, since the whole scene happened within Gatling proper, as they attacked the headquarters during Arc's diplomatic visit. So it's not in contested land, and therefore doesn't represent an attack on an invading army.


No, Max's initial fight did not take place in Galten. It was in Afganistan. You have managed to miss the context.
Also. Military infrastructure like for example.. i dont know.. the factury that produces Deu's 10th generation fighter jet is legitimate military targets.
If contested land was a limitation then the first thing countries would do in any war would be to declare a claim on ALL their opponents land.
But no of course you can also target the factory that produces guns for the invading army. Or planes in this case.

----------


## Gez

> No, Max's initial fight did not take place in Galten. It was in Afganistan. You have managed to miss the context.


Ah, right. But the fight that ended up with Darude being apprehended did take place in Gatlantis, so it's Gallivant's jurisdiction.




> Also. Military infrastructure like for example.. i dont know.. the factury that produces Deu's 10th generation fighter jet is legitimate military targets.
> If contested land was a limitation then the first thing countries would do in any war would be to declare a claim on ALL their opponents land.


No, you missed my point. If it was in the land that Galaxia is currently trying to annex, internationally it would still be recognized as Mozambique's land. (I think it was Mozambique being invaded.) So diplomatically it'd make it more difficult to recognize the legitimacy of Galtavista to hold the wanted guy. But since it didn't, then there is no issue going through the normal diplomatic channels to demand extradition from Gatalyst to the USA.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Ah, right. But the fight that ended up with Darude being apprehended did take place in Gatlantis, so it's Gallivant's jurisdiction.


Yeah. But the claim Max used to demand Darude were based on stuff he did in Afganistan or something.




> No, you missed my point. If it was in the land that Galaxia is currently trying to annex, internationally it would still be recognized as Mozambique's land. (I think it was Mozambique being invaded.) So diplomatically it'd make it more difficult to recognize the legitimacy of Galtavista to hold the wanted guy. But since it didn't, then there is no issue going through the normal diplomatic channels to demand extradition from Gatalyst to the USA.


Then your point didnt adress the point i made "Actually its BS reasons. What Darude did he did to an invading army"
The claim Max is trying to press on getting Darude handed over isnt more or less BS depending on where Darude is caught.
(its still BS, Darude were likely at home, Max and her army sure as &%¤ was not at home when they fought)

----------


## Keltest

> Yeah. But the claim Max used to demand Darude were based on stuff he did in Afganistan or something.
> 
> 
> 
> Then your point didnt adress the point i made "Actually its BS reasons. What Darude did he did to an invading army"
> The claim Max is trying to press on getting Darude handed over isnt more or less BS depending on where Darude is caught.
> (its still BS, Darude were likely at home, Max and her army sure as &%¤ was not at home when they fought)


Which invading army is that, exactly?

----------


## Shining Wrath

To be real technical, I don't think the United States ever recognized Taliban rule of Afghanistan (then, or now), so if we got permission from whoever we did recognize as the legit rulers of Afghanistan, it wasn't an invasion.

There's parts of the globe that don't really have a government in the usual sense.

----------


## sihnfahl

> To be real technical, I don't think the United States ever recognized Taliban rule of Afghanistan (then, or now)


No, we didn't.




> so if we got permission from whoever we did recognize as the legit rulers of Afghanistan, it wasn't an invasion.


There weren't any recognized legitimate rulers.

----------


## Traab

The current situation is insanely complicated on a geopolitical scale. Darude is a wanted (now that its known he is alive) terrorist according to the US. He was defeated by US agents. Said US agents probably technically didnt have the authority to get involved. He was defeated in territory thats currently under invasion by a third party who currently have physical custody of darude. Now, Deus and his military have control over the territory, so possession being 9/10ths of the law, he gets to say what happens here. However, he is on land still recognized as belonging to another party by the world at large. 

The best real world thing I could compare it to is, imagine if a member of the cia went to the area currently under contestation between russia and ukraine on some official business, stumbled over the current most wanted dude in america and captured him there. The russian military police have taken custody of him without permission, and now we get to have a fun little squabble over who gets dibs. We are in ukraine territory, he is held by russian invaders who currently hold said territory, he was captured by a US agent who probably doesnt have that authority to get involved, and the dude is wanted by the US. Whats the plan here? Who does what? Who has what rights? Who would lose in the international court system and who would win? How many decades would it take to settle?

----------


## Shining Wrath

> The current situation is insanely complicated on a geopolitical scale. Darude is a wanted (now that its known he is alive) terrorist according to the US. He was defeated by US agents. Said US agents probably technically didnt have the authority to get involved. He was defeated in territory thats currently under invasion by a third party who currently have physical custody of darude. Now, Deus and his military have control over the territory, so possession being 9/10ths of the law, he gets to say what happens here. However, he is on land still recognized as belonging to another party by the world at large. 
> 
> The best real world thing I could compare it to is, imagine if a member of the cia went to the area currently under contestation between russia and ukraine on some official business, stumbled over the current most wanted dude in america and captured him there. The russian military police have taken custody of him without permission, and now we get to have a fun little squabble over who gets dibs. We are in ukraine territory, he is held by russian invaders who currently hold said territory, he was captured by a US agent who probably doesnt have that authority to get involved, and the dude is wanted by the US. Whats the plan here? Who does what? Who has what rights? Who would lose in the international court system and who would win? How many decades would it take to settle?


In that situation the Russians try to capture the CIA agent as a wonderful propaganda display, as Putin claims Ukraine is part of Russia. Maybe move all this to Minsk?

----------


## Gez

> He was defeated in territory thats currently under invasion by a third party who currently have physical custody of darude.


No, I'm pretty sure this is happening in Gallifrey proper, not in an area Gallbladder is currently invading.

----------


## sihnfahl

> No, I'm pretty sure this is happening in Gallifrey proper, not in an area Gallbladder is currently invading.


That is correct.  They're actually just outside the Capital.

----------


## Traab

> In that situation the Russians try to capture the CIA agent as a wonderful propaganda display, as Putin claims Ukraine is part of Russia. Maybe move all this to Minsk?


Which would in turn trigger an entirely new, even more complicated mess.

----------


## InvisibleBison

Another complicating factor is that it's not clear whether the US recognizes Galtyn as an actual country. The journalist Deus did an interview with said that its status in dispute, but wasn't clear about who took what position.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Another complicating factor is that it's not clear whether the US recognizes Galtyn as an actual country.


Max is talking trade deals with Deus regarding the military tech he's fabbing up in Galtyn.

I'm leaning towards the US recognizing Deus-financed Galtyn as a legitimate Government.  Diplomatic move to play nice with the guy with lots of supers and alien tech.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Max is talking trade deals with Deus regarding the military tech he's fabbing up in Galtyn.
> 
> I'm leaning towards the US recognizing Deus-financed Galtyn as a legitimate Government.  Diplomatic move to play nice with the guy with lots of supers and alien tech.


Deus was proposing that the US government award a bunch of defense contracts to Machina Industries. The fact that these contracts would be fulfilled by factories in Galytn isn't really relevant (or at least, doesn't require the US to have extended diplomatic recognition to Galytn).

Also, Deus has only had lots of supers and alien tech for a few months. That's almost certainly not enough time for the US to decide to extend diplomatic recognition to Galytn if they hadn't done so already.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Sydney may not be Deus-super-genius smart, but she's pretty darn smart. I wonder which of the other orbs are customizable? Can she make her shield semi-permeable? Can she make her tentacle hot?

----------


## sihnfahl

> Also, Deus has only had lots of supers and alien tech for a few months. That's almost certainly not enough time for the US to decide to extend diplomatic recognition to Galytn if they hadn't done so already.


I see it as a Fast Track due to the sheer implications.




> Sydney may not be Deus-super-genius smart, but she's pretty darn smart. I wonder which of the other orbs are customizable? Can she make her shield semi-permeable? Can she make her tentacle hot?


They're all probably customizable in that they offer a lot of options regarding their function.  The PPO, for example, has beam, shotgun and rapid-fire.

The shield is already semi-permeable.  After all, it allows electromagnetic waves in the visible spectrum to pass through.

----------


## Traab

> Sydney may not be Deus-super-genius smart, but she's pretty darn smart. I wonder which of the other orbs are customizable? Can she make her shield semi-permeable? Can she make her tentacle hot?


She really is pretty darn intelligent really, its the adhd that drags her down from day to day. Honestly, these orbs are a bigger and bigger mystery every time we learn anything new about them. The current theory is they are basically a spaceship going by functions. Warp travel, shields, weapons, environmental controls, etc. Ok, lets say thats correct. Why is she only able to unlock them bit by bit? What purpose does that serve? Like, i could maybe see it as a training device. So she has to keep working on mastering the current orb abilities before she can unlock the next one. But it doesnt seem to work that way. She just kind of.... randomly gets an upgrade as plot demands. Its further possible that there is a sort of checklist of things she has to do to move on and she just doesnt know what they are so she randomly does things until eventually ding! She did a specific action that was on the list and unlocks the next thing. As an example, there was this car game back in the day, cant remember its name. It had a tutorial at the start where you are in a parking garage and you have to do all sorts of maneuvers to pass and move on with the game. Imagine if it didnt give you the list and you just had to drive randomly and hope something happened? That may be what she is dealing with.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> She really is pretty darn intelligent really, its the adhd that drags her down from day to day. Honestly, these orbs are a bigger and bigger mystery every time we learn anything new about them. The current theory is they are basically a spaceship going by functions. Warp travel, shields, weapons, environmental controls, etc. Ok, lets say thats correct. Why is she only able to unlock them bit by bit? What purpose does that serve? Like, i could maybe see it as a training device. So she has to keep working on mastering the current orb abilities before she can unlock the next one. But it doesnt seem to work that way. She just kind of.... randomly gets an upgrade as plot demands. Its further possible that there is a sort of checklist of things she has to do to move on and she just doesnt know what they are so she randomly does things until eventually ding! She did a specific action that was on the list and unlocks the next thing. As an example, there was this car game back in the day, cant remember its name. It had a tutorial at the start where you are in a parking garage and you have to do all sorts of maneuvers to pass and move on with the game. Imagine if it didnt give you the list and you just had to drive randomly and hope something happened? That may be what she is dealing with.


She has access to "Nth level technology" but no user's manual.
Imagine if you dropped Isaac Newton on the bridge of the Starship Enterprise but no one there to help him figure it out. Progress would be slow and random.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Imagine if you dropped Isaac Newton on the bridge of the Starship Enterprise but no one there to help him figure it out. Progress would be slow and random.


That depends.  Is the ship's computer not responding to questions?  And barring changes, the Enterprises' controls would be labeled in English.

Heck, even Sun Tzu.  The computer is so advanced, it'd probably have ancient Chinese as an option for dialogue and display if it responded to him asking if anyone was there.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> That depends.  Is the ship's computer not responding to questions?  And barring changes, the Enterprises' controls would be labeled in English.
> 
> Heck, even Sun Tzu.  The computer is so advanced, it'd probably have ancient Chinese as an option for dialogue and display if it responded to him asking if anyone was there.


Even if the computer is answering questions, Isaac has no context for what questions to ask. Or awareness that the computer can answer him.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Even if the computer is answering questions, Isaac has no context for what questions to ask. Or awareness that the computer can answer him.


He may not immediately have context, but he would at least be able to ask questions and figure things out faster.

And in several episodes, IIRC, the computer will respond to questions and statements even if the person didn't direct the question / statement at the computer.

Sydney has no computer answering questions, no frame of reference other than 'try this and figure things out by the results', nothing's in a language she understands...

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

> She really is pretty darn intelligent really, its the adhd that drags her down from day to day. Honestly, these orbs are a bigger and bigger mystery every time we learn anything new about them. The current theory is they are basically a spaceship going by functions. Warp travel, shields, weapons, environmental controls, etc. Ok, lets say thats correct. Why is she only able to unlock them bit by bit? What purpose does that serve? Like, i could maybe see it as a training device. So she has to keep working on mastering the current orb abilities before she can unlock the next one. But it doesnt seem to work that way. She just kind of.... randomly gets an upgrade as plot demands. Its further possible that there is a sort of checklist of things she has to do to move on and she just doesnt know what they are so she randomly does things until eventually ding! She did a specific action that was on the list and unlocks the next thing. As an example, there was this car game back in the day, cant remember its name. It had a tutorial at the start where you are in a parking garage and you have to do all sorts of maneuvers to pass and move on with the game. Imagine if it didnt give you the list and you just had to drive randomly and hope something happened? That may be what she is dealing with.


It's unknown what entity created the orbs and for what purpose (obviously), but who or whatever it was, it was very powerful.

If I were to think of something that would create something so obviously powerful as the orbs, and for what reason, and for what reason they would be given such a broad range of features with such an unorthodox method of gaining more...

I'd say the orbs are a toy.

Well, no, not a "toy". But something meant for a child. Something a child of a technologically powerful and intelligent, but physically weak civilization, receives at birth. They are tools for protection, mobility, offense, manipulation, misdirection, survival. Their kind can likely use a lot more than two of them at once, and develop their personal toolkit according to their preference. I can't quite tell how the unlocks work, but they're almost certainly related to new 'experiences', things that would trigger the need to improve.
- Tanking Maxima's nuclear blast
- Being exposed to Krona's reality warping (or near death experiene)
- Going through a wormhole
- Alien tractor beam
Something like that. Maybe dishing out enough energy with the PPO also counts, or pushing the Flyorb to its maximum conventional speed.

So eventually the 'child' matures and either develops powers of their own, or keeps using the orbs with their customized toolset.

Also I think the 'commball' is not communication. Communication might be the last unknown. The 'commball' is guile/misdirection. Appearing where you are not, gathering information (including concealed information, such as seeing through illusions), discreetly changing position - possibly changing your appearance. Something that would allow an individual to assess their environment, avoid trouble, or blend in.

----------


## Gez

> Its further possible that there is a sort of checklist of things she has to do to move on and she just doesnt know what they are so she randomly does things until eventually ding! She did a specific action that was on the list and unlocks the next thing. As an example, there was this car game back in the day, cant remember its name. It had a tutorial at the start where you are in a parking garage and you have to do all sorts of maneuvers to pass and move on with the game. Imagine if it didnt give you the list and you just had to drive randomly and hope something happened? That may be what she is dealing with.


Twitch Chat Plays With Super Powers IRL

----------


## lord_khaine

> To be real technical, I don't think the United States ever recognized Taliban rule of Afghanistan (then, or now), so if we got permission from whoever we did recognize as the legit rulers of Afghanistan, it wasn't an invasion.
> 
> There's parts of the globe that don't really have a government in the usual sense.


And that still loops back to it being a BS claim. 
Since the situation is about the same as if Thot went "i dont recognize the rule of the USA president/senate/whatever, i recognize the guy in that trailer park who sold me texas. And now im moving in with my unbeatable army to take it"
Then when Max fought and failed to prevent it, she in turn would become a wanted criminal on a galactic scale. 

Anyway. Thats the short of why i think Max's claim on Darude is BS. 
If you dont want your army attacked, leave it at home. If its attacked? 100% fair you try and murder the attacker.
But if it fails, BS to then try and press charges several years down the line. For the same reason you cant press charges on Max, despite her body count.

----------


## Keltest

> And that still loops back to it being a BS claim. 
> Since the situation is about the same as if Thot went "i dont recognize the rule of the USA president/senate/whatever, i recognize the guy in that trailer park who sold me texas. And now im moving in with my unbeatable army to take it"
> Then when Max fought and failed to prevent it, she in turn would become a wanted criminal on a galactic scale. 
> 
> Anyway. Thats the short of why i think Max's claim on Darude is BS. 
> If you dont want your army attacked, leave it at home. If its attacked? 100% fair you try and murder the attacker.
> But if it fails, BS to then try and press charges several years down the line. For the same reason you cant press charges on Max, despite her body count.


"Its ok to attack an army as long as you dont think your country should be allied with them" is a pretty seriously dubious claim no matter how you phrase it.

----------


## lord_khaine

> "Its ok to attack an army as long as you dont think your country should be allied with them" is a pretty seriously dubious claim no matter how you phrase it.


Im glad to see people of this forum is still following the time honored tradition of ignoring the majority of a message. 
In favor of finding a tiny bit out of context to attack instead.

----------


## Keltest

> Im glad to see people of this forum is still following the time honored tradition of ignoring the majority of a message. 
> In favor of finding a tiny bit out of context to attack instead.


I'm only ignoring it because the rest of it is basically a political stance about real world events that I want nothing to do with. However, I also dispute that the context would change the part I did talk about.

----------


## lord_khaine

I am trying badly to avoid getting into details about the situation for a reason.
And i in turn dispute your dispute. I think it was pretty clear from context i talked about when your army is doing some occupation.
Or taking side in a civil war. 

While.. in turn i can then also see you support the notion. 
That if an american punches a russian on the nose in belgium.
Then russia gets a legal claim on having said american handed over to russia if he is later arrested in france.

Or any part you would object to there?

----------


## Keltest

> I am trying badly to avoid getting into details about the situation for a reason.
> And i in turn dispute your dispute. I think it was pretty clear from context i talked about when your army is doing some occupation.
> Or taking side in a civil war. 
> 
> While.. in turn i can then also see you support the notion. 
> That if an american punches a russian on the nose in belgium.
> Then russia gets a legal claim on having said american handed over to russia if he is later arrested in france.
> 
> Or any part you would object to there?


I dispute the scale. Mass murder is different from getting in a scuffle. But ok, lets escalate it that far. A citizen of the fictional nation of the United Steaks goes around in another country and starts murdering citizens of the Steaks' rival nation of Great Baking. They get captured in the Nation of Chocolate. In that case then yes, I do believe that Great Baking does have every right to request extradition of the Steakian murderer to Great Baking for trial. Absent an explicit treaty, the Nation of Chocolate doesnt specifically _have_ to comply, but it is a compelling reason that could stand to affect their relationship with Great Baking and thus worth weighing carefully.

----------


## lord_khaine

It seemed the easiest way to simplify the matter. In a warzone its very easy to become a mass murderer.

But alright fair. I guess i value the idea of national soverignity a bit more.
Since as such its the unnamed country's laws that were broken. Both the Steaks and the Bakers were just guests there.

And its also why i cant see any right to the claim of the Steaks. None of their laws were broken. 
Why does that give them a claim thats more weighty than Nameless Lands?

Its then one thing when the laws is basically identical in all 4 countries. 
But it sets weird precedence if what the Steaker did wasnt illegal in the Nameless Land.
Perhaps because there honor duels are legal. 
Or perhaps because the killing was done through faulty medicine. And hence carried a less severe penalty there?

----------


## Keltest

> It seemed the easiest way to simplify the matter. In a warzone its very easy to become a mass murderer.
> 
> But alright fair. I guess i value the idea of national soverignity a bit more.
> Since as such its the unnamed country's laws that were broken. Both the Steaks and the Bakers were just guests there.
> 
> And its also why i cant see any right to the claim of the Steaks. None of their laws were broken. 
> Why does that give them a claim thats more weighty than Nameless Lands?
> 
> Its then one thing when the laws is basically identical in all 4 countries. 
> ...


Its their citizens that were killed. Citizenship is more than just a checkbox after all, and if somebody is targeting them based on it they have a right to demand recompence.

Depending on the context, Nation of Chocolate might decide that their own right to trial holds precedence (or I suppose their indifference to the fate of the Bakers). Maybe its an election year and the President of Chocolate wants to look strong for catching an international mass murderer. Maybe they just dont actually like the Bakers that much. Theres a lot to consider in international relations.

Swinging back to the comic, we can clearly see Deus weighing the pros and cons of allowing Maxima and the States to have Darude, and of course the ultimate question he's asking is "whats in it for me" for each option. And he decided that the improved US relations were more valuable than keeping Darude long term.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well. Why does the Bakers have that right? Their citizens where outside of their borders.
None of their laws have been broken. Its the laws of the unnamed country, lets call them Fruit Salad, that was violated.

As such the Steaker hasnt done anything wrong here in Chocolate land. So one could ask what ground they have for a trial.
And why its not Fruit Salad who has a demand for the mass murderer.
(in part because justice systems are suposed to be blind to stuff like nationality).

While as for Deus?
Absolutely he goes for the solution that benefits his long term plans.
He want to sell planes. So he want to please his biggest potential customer.

----------


## Keltest

> Well. Why does the Bakers have that right? Their citizens where outside of their borders.
> None of their laws have been broken. Its the laws of the unnamed country, lets call them Fruit Salad, that was violated.
> 
> As such the Steaker hasnt done anything wrong here in Chocolate land. So one could ask what ground they have for a trial.
> And why its not Fruit Salad who has a demand for the mass murderer.
> (in part because justice systems are suposed to be blind to stuff like nationality).
> 
> While as for Deus?
> Absolutely he goes for the solution that benefits his long term plans.
> He want to sell planes. So he want to please his biggest potential customer.


The country has a name. Theyre the Nation of Chocolate. Thus the capitalization.

Anyway, international relations is definitionally a complicated subject, but in this particular case, the Bakers are the victims here, which is why they get a claim. Theyre the injured party, so to speak. And youre right, Chocolate does have their own case to make against the Steaker based on their own laws. Thats why this is a request and not an obligation, assuming Nation of Chocolate doesnt have a treaty with Great Bakers that decides this sort of thing already. They have the capacity to decline and try him themselves, or even release him if none of their laws ended up being broken. They just have to measure that against the damage it will do to their relations with the Bakers.

I think its also kind of a dubious claim that Galtyn captured Darude here. All they did was incarcerate him when he was unconscious.

----------


## lord_khaine

No thats the point i was trying to make. You forgot to name a country yourself  :Small Tongue: 




> A citizen of the fictional nation of the United Steaks goes around *in another country*


Another country is suposedly not the same as Chocolate land. 
Its Another country i claim have an actual justified claim on the Steakian mass murderer. 
The actual victims i would claim, are the dead bakers and their families. 
And it seems fully reasonable they try and petition to have the murderer handed over to Another country for trial.

Since the problem with the alternative, becomes that people are suddenly not equal before the law.
They would not be, if citizens carried a tiny pocket of their native laws with them.
So that stealing from a Chocolater got you month in jail. While stealing from a Baker got your hand chopped off. 

Alas. International relations are tricky. Hence i dont argue about whats legal or likely with Darude.
Only with what would be justified. 

While as for Darude. He got knocked down while brawling with a couple civilians. 
And then picked up by law enforcement. I think you can say Galtyn captured him.

----------


## Keltest

> No thats the point i was trying to make. You forgot to name a country yourself 
> 
> 
> 
> Another country is suposedly not the same as Chocolate land. 
> Its Another country i claim have an actual justified claim on the Steakian mass murderer. 
> The actual victims i would claim, are the dead bakers and their families. 
> And it seems fully reasonable they try and petition to have the murderer handed over to Another country for trial.
> 
> ...


In my mind, Another Country was the Nation of Chocolate. Or an amalgamation of several nations, including Chocolate, where this was going down. Which admittedly does explain a lot about the disagreement.

----------


## The Glyphstone

Dave, repeat after me. Phonetic Aksents are never as funny as they seem in your head.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Dave, repeat after me. -X- are never as funny as they seem in your head.


Sadly generally appliable  :Small Tongue:

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Dave, repeat after me. Phonetic Aksents are never as funny as they seem in your head.


Yeah, my reaction to this scene was not amusement but confusion - why is there a seemingly Jamaican man on a fishing boat of the coast of Senegal, and why doesn't his son have the same accent as him?

----------


## Shining Wrath

The clumsy accent detracted from the punchline, which actually wasn't bad.
"Those clouds? Good fishing".
"That set over there? Squalls".
"The clouds dancing? Ass-kicking imminent."

----------


## Traab

He has an interesting history with accents. In that he tends to really enjoy spelling them out when they are particularly strong like varia and her boston accent. This case is different however, in that we have to wonder why they are speaking english to each other in the first place? French is the "official" language of senegal, and there are a ton of others listed like Wolof, Pulaar, Mandinka, Balanta-Ganja, Mandjak, Hassaniya Arabic, Noon, Jola-Fonyi, Serer, Soninke, and Mankanya. English isnt even on the list.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> He has an interesting history with accents. In that he tends to really enjoy spelling them out when they are particularly strong like varia and her boston accent. This case is different however, in that we have to wonder why they are speaking english to each other in the first place? French is the "official" language of senegal, and there are a ton of others listed like Wolof, Pulaar, Mandinka, Balanta-Ganja, Mandjak, Hassaniya Arabic, Noon, Jola-Fonyi, Serer, Soninke, and Mankanya. English isnt even on the list.


Also, you wouldn't go over Senegal on your way to the United States from Mozambique. You'd be further south, like Gabon.

----------


## Mechalich

> Also, you wouldn't go over Senegal on your way to the United States from Mozambique. You'd be further south, like Gabon.


Plausibly it might actually be faster for Maxima to go around the Cape out to see before turning north, assuming she can go much faster over ocean because she doesn't have to worry about the impact of her supersonic speeds. In certain circumstances she'd also want to think about over-the-pole routes.

----------


## lord_khaine

Im not certain going over the ocean means she can unleash more super sonic booms.
If anything i would assume smaller boats would be even more vulnerable to them than someone at land.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Im not certain going over the ocean means she can unleash more super sonic booms.
> If anything i would assume smaller boats would be even more vulnerable to them than someone at land.


I suspect it's a lot easier for her to find routes that don't go near ships than ones that don't go near towns.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> I suspect it's a lot easier for her to find routes that don't go near ships than ones that don't go near towns.


Except ships move and are in unpredictable places, unless she's tapped into US intelligence and they can route her. Which, actually, is likely.

----------


## Mechalich

> Except ships move and are in unpredictable places, unless she's tapped into US intelligence and they can route her. Which, actually, is likely.


Actually, every commercial vessel on the planet (and most yachts above a certain size) is continually location tracked using GPS through the AIS database. You can view a free live feed here.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> I suspect it's a lot easier for her to find routes that don't go near ships than ones that don't go near towns.





> Except ships move and are in unpredictable places, unless she's tapped into US intelligence and they can route her. Which, actually, is likely.





> Actually, every commercial vessel on the planet (and most yachts above a certain size) is continually location tracked using GPS through the AIS database. You can view a free live feed here.


I'd also expect there are certain sea regions, shipping lanes, et cetera, which are more frequently traveled by ships, and others which are relatively devoid of traffic where it would be pretty safe to go at max speed.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Actually, every commercial vessel on the planet (and most yachts above a certain size) is continually location tracked using GPS through the AIS database. You can view a free live feed here.


Its the smaller ones im worried about anyway.

----------


## Traab

> Its the smaller ones im worried about anyway.


Would the smaller ones without trackers be far out at sea? Also, would sonic booms even be an issue for anyone at sea level considering maxima is probably cruising at an altitude many thousands of feet in the air? How far do sonic booms travel from a man sized projectile and still be capable of causing damage?

----------


## lord_khaine

> Would the smaller ones without trackers be far out at sea? Also, would sonic booms even be an issue for anyone at sea level considering maxima is probably cruising at an altitude many thousands of feet in the air? How far do sonic booms travel from a man sized projectile and still be capable of causing damage?


Quite possibly. Some small sail boats does cross the oceans. Some nordic guy did in a reef boat once.
And if Max is that high up her sonic boom isnt doing damage. Then no reason to stick to the sea.

----------


## halfeye

> Quite possibly. Some small sail boats does cross the oceans. Some nordic guy did in a reef boat once.
> And if Max is that high up her sonic boom isnt doing damage. Then no reason to stick to the sea.


Concorde was banned from supersonic flight over land, farmers said it upset their cattle, and that was enough. It's national law, not international, but it is pretty near universal and it applies.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Concorde was banned from supersonic flight over land, farmers said it upset their cattle, and that was enough. It's national law, not international, but it is pretty near universal and it applies.


The only laws that apply to Maxima are the ones she chooses to follow, and in an emergency like this I think she'd be willing to annoy a few cows.

----------


## Keltest

> The only laws that apply to Maxima are the ones she chooses to follow, and in an emergency like this I think she'd be willing to annoy a few cows.


Thats generally not how laws work, in fact. Doubly so as a member of the US military.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Thats generally not how laws work, in fact. Doubly so as a member of the US military.


Laws work because the government can punish people for breaking them. Who exactly can punish Maxima if she decides she doesn't want to follow a certain law?

----------


## Keltest

> Laws work because the government can punish people for breaking them. Who exactly can punish Maxima if she decides she doesn't want to follow a certain law?


The rest of Archon probably. Dabbler was able to fight her to a standstill, so with a team behind her they collectively could probably win, though maybe not without casualties.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> The rest of Archon probably. Dabbler was able to fight her to a standstill, so with a team behind her they collectively could probably win, though maybe not without casualties.


Maybe Archon can defeat Maxima, but can they take her prisoner and hold her for an extended period of time? We don't know the details of how the in-comic US legal system has changed to accommodate superheroes, but I highly doubt it has gotten rid of trials.

----------


## The Glyphstone

If Kevin got some sort of trial, it happened entirely off camera.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> If Kevin got some sort of trial, it happened entirely off camera.


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


So?

The statement you are responding to is still completely accurate. If Kevin got a trial - _that's past tense you know_ - it happened off-screen. Because we didn't see it.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> So?
> 
> The statement you are responding to is still completely accurate. If Kevin got a trial - _that's past tense you know_ - it happened off-screen. Because we didn't see it.


The Glyphstone seemed to be implying that the fact that we haven't seen anything of Kevin's trial was evidence for the notions that supercriminals don't get trials. My post was a rebuttal of this notion.

----------


## Mechalich

Dabbler states in comic #968 that Vehemence "wasn't doing well in prison." This implies he was given a trial, because you only get sent to prison, as opposed to jail or some other form of pre-trial detention post-sentencing. Given the relatively short in-universe timeframe this suggests that Archon worked to expedite the trial proceedings or that Vehemence took some kind of plea deal. Plausibly, given the whole mind-control aspect of the brawl and messy overlap that would result, he simply pled to an extremely large number of counts of 'assaulting a federal officer' and 'destruction of property' - offenses where guilt is clear and easy to establish and was given a suitably lengthy prison term with the other charges never adjudicated.

----------


## lord_khaine

> The rest of Archon probably. Dabbler was able to fight her to a standstill, so with a team behind her they collectively could probably win, though maybe not without casualties.


As i recall from author comment, Dabbler were able to pile on enough pressure to make Max tank up. 
What happens if they both take off the kid gloves are anyones guess. 

But problem is there isnt really anything that can keep Max in a fight she dont want. 




> Dabbler states in comic #968 that Vehemence "wasn't doing well in prison." This implies he was given a trial, because you only get sent to prison, as opposed to jail or some other form of pre-trial detention post-sentencing. Given the relatively short in-universe timeframe this suggests that Archon worked to expedite the trial proceedings or that Vehemence took some kind of plea deal. Plausibly, given the whole mind-control aspect of the brawl and messy overlap that would result, he simply pled to an extremely large number of counts of 'assaulting a federal officer' and 'destruction of property' - offenses where guilt is clear and easy to establish and was given a suitably lengthy prison term with the other charges never adjudicated.


I think the difference between prison and jail is slightly to pedantic for this comic. Im pretty certain a decent number of people use them as synonyms.

He did also mention being locked up because he was to dangerous to be allowed free when pleading the case for sending him into space.

----------


## Traab

I think the more important factor here is that government officials such as cops often have the right to violate specific laws in an emergency, hence why they can run red lights and not have to ticket themselves. While acting internationally at the moment (which muddies certain aspects of what their jurisdiction is) archon is primarily an internal military/police force dedicated to the whole super criminal issue inside the united states. So its entirely likely that being told her headquarters is under attack would mean that maxima is authorized to get back to base as fast as is safely possible and so factors like laws against scaring cows will be waived for the duration. There may be issues if confirmable damage is done in the process, such as shattering windows and stampeding cattle trampling a petting zoo run by nuns and orphans, but a generic "you arent supposed to do that" wouldnt apply. 

As for "who could arrest maxima?" Im sure that they have excessive plans in place after thorough study of maxima and her abilities, general strategies, and their limits, to take her in, along with anyone else, if needed. We have seen her be defeated in comic. Only being saved by sydney and her outside the box hyper ocd genre convention exploiting brain. Yes it took an excessive amount of prep and surprise to do, but I could see them super charging vehemence as much as possible then orbital dropping him on top of max to give her a brute that can match her physically while everyone else enacts whatever plan is needed to weaken her and take her down. He knows about her counter style now and can probably adjust for it. For all we know he can use his energy to turn into Luffy from One Piece and joint strikes will do nothing to his now rubber body. His powers seem to run on the basis of "Nuh uh! My guy can do THIS!" So its not impossible.

----------


## lord_khaine

In Max's case i cant see those plans going anything else than "we are boned".
Well except for the one involving striking a deal with Vehemence. We have seen that sufficiently charged he does beat Max.

And sufficiently charged he dont need to turn his joints to jelly.
Because her counter-style has a rather crucial flaw. It only works on someone a lot weaker than yourself. 
Without a speed advantage she cant pull those moves off. And without a power advantage they wont do much. 

The ACTUAL counter style is the one Hiro showed. Where the fight got so dull Dabbler became bored.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

I mean, it's the "How do you arrest Super Man?" question. Answer is, you don't. Not unless he comes along willingly (which he usually does 'cause he's a nice guy).

----------


## Shining Wrath

Max, Vehemence, Halo, Dabbler - they all sleep. And breathe. A gradual reduction in the amount of O2 in the room where they are sleeping might render them unconscious without them even noticing. Now, obtaining access to the place where they sleep may be difficult - but probably not for the USG with an arrest warrant.

----------


## lord_khaine

Not certain why you include Halo on that list since she actually have a crippling bullet weakness.
All it takes to finish her is being quicker on the draw. 

Vehemence we dont know enough about on his baseline. It can be he regens a bullet even there.
But uncharged a lesser super can fight him we have seen.

Dabbler is a weird case. What she can is almost plot dictated. But she isnt invulnerable.
Just very dangerous.

With Max meanwhile, then yeah drugging her is possibly the only thing that might work.
But having access to where she sleeps seems a bad assumption.




> I mean, it's the "How do you arrest Super Man?" question. Answer is, you don't. Not unless he comes along willingly (which he usually does 'cause he's a nice guy).


Well that or ask the justice league. But yeah. It is kinda a problem to enforce laws on sufficiently powerful metahumans.
At some point as a state you have to give up, unless you have state sponsored meta's.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

Shooting Vehemence might be violent enough that it gives him enough power to heal the bullet wound. Or it might not. We don't really know. Probably best to assume it does.

----------


## Traab

> Shooting Vehemence might be violent enough that it gives him enough power to heal the bullet wound. Or it might not. We don't really know. Probably best to assume it does.


Even after being around a 30 man super brawl, a 50 cal was enough to take out an eye. id imagine peggy could snipe base vehemence just fine. Probably even more so as I wouldnt be surprised if they had all sorts of special ammo they could use. As for max, she isnt superman. The rest of arcswat could take her down. We already know that dabbler was able to force her into turtle mode. We also know that jiggawatts power was able to injure her outside of said turtle mode. By forcing her to stat dump into durability to withstand various attacks, she loses out on her ability to fly, blast, or use super strength, which means she is vulnerable to whatever take down methods they might have such as knockout gas or others. Heck, get her into turtle mode, and pinned, then put on a rebreather and have sydney pop a shield around her along with whatever air mixture will induce nap time fastest now that we know she can do it. Dave said she can hold her breath for some time and even use power to breathe but its super inefficient and doubtful she can do it while being pinned down in full stat dump mode so it would probably work. Obviously no strategy is fool proof but thats one off the top of my head that absolutely could work against her.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Even after being around a 30 man super brawl, a 50 cal was enough to take out an eye. id imagine peggy could snipe base vehemence just fine.


Succubi derive more power from being directly involved with sexytimes - I assume Vehemence derives more power from being directly involved with violence. But ok.

----------


## Shining Wrath

All of the big heroes are vulnerable to bullets from behind. I don't think we've seen any evidence that Max, Vehemence, Dabbler, or Halo have special senses that let them "feel" a bullet coming faster than sound from behind.

And don't limit yourself to .50 caliber rifles. Consider an A-10 approaching Maxima from behind and lighting her up with 30 mm bullets doing over 3,000 feet per second (3x speed of sound). Yes, she can catch handgun rounds that she can see. But can she grab a bullet that's already penetrating her skin? And at the rate of fire of a GAU-8, by the time the first bullet touches her there's a few dozen on the way.

Now, she has demonstrated astonishing reflexes. OTOH, Hench Wench was able to teleport into water, and then teleport away before Max could react. If she doesn't know what's going on and has to decide what to do, it takes time to think - in fact, I don't think she thinks, per se, any faster than anyone else.

----------


## Gez

"Glace pour te rencontrer" (title of strip 1083) is google translate for "ice to meet you", but of course since google translate doesn't understand puns, it parsed the sentence as "ice that has the purpose of meeting you"...

----------


## lord_khaine

> Or it might not. We don't really know. Probably best to assume it does.


certainly safest to assume its the case. As you really dont want to miss.




> As for max, she isnt superman. The rest of arcswat could take her down. We already know that dabbler was able to force her into turtle mode. We also know that jiggawatts power was able to injure her outside of said turtle mode. By forcing her to stat dump into durability to withstand various attacks, she loses out on her ability to fly, blast, or use super strength, which means she is vulnerable to whatever take down methods they might have such as knockout gas or others.


Max is close enough to Superman the difference is basically academic for anyone not at Iron man tier or something along that line. 
And no thats not entirely correct. Max has a baseline level level of power thats about spiderman tier. And the ability to boost one single attribute to Thor tier (authors own words). 
When she does so with toughness she still have the baseline flight and strenght. She can also draw upon her other attributes to boost a stat even further. But she didnt need to do so with toughness.
(compare diagrams comic 273 and 283). 

Also if your thinking of 286 its Vehemence who had the ability to damage Max out of turtle mode. Its his color lightning not Jiggawats. 
So in conclusion i find it highly unlikely the team is able to press her so badly she loses the ability to just fly away. 




> All of the big heroes are vulnerable to bullets from behind. I don't think we've seen any evidence that Max, Vehemence, Dabbler, or Halo have special senses that let them "feel" a bullet coming faster than sound from behind.
> 
> And don't limit yourself to .50 caliber rifles. Consider an A-10 approaching Maxima from behind and lighting her up with 30 mm bullets doing over 3,000 feet per second (3x speed of sound). Yes, she can catch handgun rounds that she can see. But can she grab a bullet that's already penetrating her skin? And at the rate of fire of a GAU-8, by the time the first bullet touches her there's a few dozen on the way.


Max dont need a special sense to feel the bullet. Or to catch it. When it dont have the penetrative power to actually hurt her. 
I think your underestimating just what tier of super power she posses. Yes she is a lightweight version of Superman. 
Thats comic book Superman. It means a nuke -might- work if it catches her off guard. And basically hits her dead center. 
The GAU-8? its unlikely to even ruin her clothes due to her force field.

----------


## tyckspoon

> Max dont need a special sense to feel the bullet. Or to catch it. When it dont have the penetrative power to actually hurt her. 
> I think your underestimating just what tier of super power she posses. Yes she is a lightweight version of Superman. 
> Thats comic book Superman. It means a nuke -might- work if it catches her off guard. And basically hits her dead center. 
> The GAU-8? its unlikely to even ruin her clothes due to her force field.


She's shown clothing damage from much weaker attacks (including -sand- from fighting Darude just now, which also notably polished her skin.. which requires at least some ability to abrade the surface you're polishing so she's not even fully immune to the sandstorm), so I think you're rather drastically overestimating the durability of her defenses there... although a good part of that is just author fetishism in the art and probably should not be taken as evidence of how tough Maxima's actual body is; it's mostly an excuse to A: randomly expose bits of Maxima's skin because Dave would really rather be drawing erotica, and B: not actually have Maxima be naked all the time so it can still be a PG/PG13 rated comic.

She'd absolutely be wrecked by a nuke if she didn't get prepped for tanking it.. but we don't actually know Maxima's 'default' power arrangement. Could be possible she has Armor set high normally just in case she gets ambushed by something, it'd be the safe choice to be ready to absorb a surprise hit and still be in fighting shape to figure out what the correct allotment would be to handle the threat. (Actually about the only reason I can think of not to do that is if assigning her energy pool is in itself somehow taxing, and when she is in a 'safe' environment she'd just leave it unassigned because it's more comfortable that way.)

----------


## Traab

> certainly safest to assume its the case. As you really dont want to miss.
> 
> 
> 
> Max is close enough to Superman the difference is basically academic for anyone not at Iron man tier or something along that line. 
> And no thats not entirely correct. Max has a baseline level level of power thats about spiderman tier. And the ability to boost one single attribute to Thor tier (authors own words). 
> When she does so with toughness she still have the baseline flight and strenght. She can also draw upon her other attributes to boost a stat even further. But she didnt need to do so with toughness.
> (compare diagrams comic 273 and 283). 
> 
> ...


She isnt even remotely superman level. Her base stats make her spiderman tier? Ok, thats fine. Arcswat has SEVERAL people capable of outmuscling spiderman. Hiro and stalwart are both capable of strength feats in the space shuttle lifting range. Which is more than spiderman can normally lift by a few times over. The point is forcing her to stat dump into durability means the rest of her abilities are weak enough to handle by the rest of arcswat. She can be restrained at that point because while her durability might match thor, her strength speed flight and blasting power do not. Stalwart hiro and maybe even anvil if they help her ramp up a bit as well, could each physically hold her down in turtle mode while whatever knockout method they decide on gets used. 

As for nukes, nope. In the super brawl she got slightly hurt by boom boom mc explodey lady or whatever her name was. It was enough to blow through her outfit and make her think that it really hurt. And it was only enough to blow a tank in half. So off guard I think a standard cruise missile would be enough to take her down. Or at least injure her big time. No need for nukes.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> She isnt even remotely superman level. Her base stats make her spiderman tier? Ok, thats fine. Arcswat has SEVERAL people capable of outmuscling spiderman. Hiro and stalwart are both capable of strength feats in the space shuttle lifting range. Which is more than spiderman can normally lift by a few times over. The point is forcing her to stat dump into durability means the rest of her abilities are weak enough to handle by the rest of arcswat. She can be restrained at that point because while her durability might match thor, her strength speed flight and blasting power do not. Stalwart hiro and maybe even anvil if they help her ramp up a bit as well, could each physically hold her down in turtle mode while whatever knockout method they decide on gets used. 
> 
> As for nukes, nope. In the super brawl she got slightly hurt by boom boom mc explodey lady or whatever her name was. It was enough to blow through her outfit and make her think that it really hurt. And it was only enough to blow a tank in half. So off guard I think a standard cruise missile would be enough to take her down. Or at least injure her big time. No need for nukes.


Unless Tyckspoon is right and Maxima's 'default' allocation is a really high defense just in case she walks into an ambush.

----------


## Traab

> Unless Tyckspoon is right and Maxima's 'default' allocation is a really high defense just in case she walks into an ambush.


We have no way of knowing as its literally whatever dave wants her to have at any point in time. Its just as easy to point out that maxima was actually IN A FIGHT at the time when atomic bombshell hurt her with a tank buster level attack. And im sure you could poke a thousand holes in my stated plan, but thats just theory crafting back and forth and not really proof either way. The main point is that she is far from untouchable. She isnt some planet juggling oscar statue with boobs. She is strong yes, but not unbeatable. There is no "ALL IS LOST!!!!" moment if maxima turns. Its a really bad day yeah, but not the end of the world and is something fixable.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> We have no way of knowing as its literally whatever dave wants her to have at any point in time. Its just as easy to point out that maxima was actually IN A FIGHT at the time when atomic bombshell hurt her with a tank buster level attack. And im sure you could poke a thousand holes in my stated plan, but thats just theory crafting back and forth and not really proof either way. The main point is that she is far from untouchable. She isnt some planet juggling oscar statue with boobs. She is strong yes, but not unbeatable. There is no "ALL IS LOST!!!!" moment if maxima turns. Its a really bad day yeah, but not the end of the world and is something fixable.


This is true, that her powers are "What does the story need" rather than published in the GP Monster Manual.

It's also possible that her default setting is "Armored", just in case.

Colorless odorless poisonous gas? That she might be vulnerable to.

----------


## lord_khaine

> She's shown clothing damage from much weaker attacks (including -sand- from fighting Darude just now, which also notably polished her skin.. which requires at least some ability to abrade the surface you're polishing so she's not even fully immune to the sandstorm), so I think you're rather drastically overestimating the durability of her defenses there... although a good part of that is just author fetishism in the art and probably should not be taken as evidence of how tough Maxima's actual body is; it's mostly an excuse to A: randomly expose bits of Maxima's skin because Dave would really rather be drawing erotica, and B: not actually have Maxima be naked all the time so it can still be a PG/PG13 rated comic.


Objection! Said sandstorm wasnt a natural sandstorm. It was another massively powerful super doing his very best to grind Max down. So we cant actually say much from that regarding durability.




> She'd absolutely be wrecked by a nuke if she didn't get prepped for tanking it.. but we don't actually know Maxima's 'default' power arrangement. Could be possible she has Armor set high normally just in case she gets ambushed by something, it'd be the safe choice to be ready to absorb a surprise hit and still be in fighting shape to figure out what the correct allotment would be to handle the threat. (Actually about the only reason I can think of not to do that is if assigning her energy pool is in itself somehow taxing, and when she is in a 'safe' environment she'd just leave it unassigned because it's more comfortable that way.)


We actually know Max's default power distribution from the author blog. Its armor and strenght. Or Armor, strenght and flight. 
So clearly its not as such taxing on her, more like wear the sock on your right or left foot. 
Hence it only being possibly a point blank nuke is enough. Its not enough to take care of comic Thor or Hulk. Is it enough for Max? Well perhaps? 




> She isnt even remotely superman level. Her base stats make her spiderman tier? Ok, thats fine. Arcswat has SEVERAL people capable of outmuscling spiderman. Hiro and stalwart are both capable of strength feats in the space shuttle lifting range. Which is more than spiderman can normally lift by a few times over. The point is forcing her to stat dump into durability means the rest of her abilities are weak enough to handle by the rest of arcswat. She can be restrained at that point because while her durability might match thor, her strength speed flight and blasting power do not. Stalwart hiro and maybe even anvil if they help her ramp up a bit as well, could each physically hold her down in turtle mode while whatever knockout method they decide on gets used.


Second objection!
It does not matter what her base stats are. When her pool allows her to boost them massively. From Spiderman to Thor tier (authors clarrification. From the old Marvel RPG). 
Hence. In most cases Thor tier durability is -massive- overkill and it will be possible for her to divert suitable power into strenght or speed. 
At least, im very uncertain about what effect would push her into tank mode, that dont accidentially kill Hiro or Stalvart from friendly fire. 
(it should also be noted, that spiderman level super speed makes it unlikely for Hiro to be able to grapple her, even if she were in tank mode)




> As for nukes, nope. In the super brawl she got slightly hurt by boom boom mc explodey lady or whatever her name was. It was enough to blow through her outfit and make her think that it really hurt. And it was only enough to blow a tank in half. So off guard I think a standard cruise missile would be enough to take her down. Or at least injure her big time. No need for nukes.


It was not only enough to blow a tank in half. It was enough to blow a tank in half. It might seem like a pedantic distinction. But its kinda vital. As its the difference between upper and lower bound of the shaped charge. 
But its kinda hard to find a tougher frame of reference than blowing a tank up. That she called it a shaped charge certainly makes it sound like its an attack with high armor penetration.




> There is no "ALL IS LOST!!!!" moment if maxima turns. Its a really bad day yeah, but not the end of the world and is something fixable.


The main reason its not "all is lost" if Max turn, is the existance of "trick" supers like For Whom the Bell Tolls. Or supers with an unknown power celling like Vehemence or HencWrench (who i still think is dumb).
Also that she isnt immune to mental attacks.

----------


## Shining Wrath

If Max can be damaged by an attack that blows a tank in half, she's damaged by a GAU-8. Punching holes in tanks is what they do (and then the molten slug bounces around inside the tank and sets things afire). Or a Javelin. Or a recoilless rifle. Maybe not to the same degree as "blow tank in half" attack, but she can be worn down by these - and like I said earlier, a GAU-8 fires a stream of bullets. E.G., if "blow a tank in half" does 20 HP damage, a GAU-8 slug ought to do 2, and a Javelin 5.

Or get her to fly really fast and plunk an invisible force field barrier in front of her. Irresistible Max meets immovable force field, that might leave a mark.

Or, perhaps, a magical attack that bypasses her physical defenses. Can she be polymorphed into a snail? Turned to stone? Could a vampire with sufficiently sharp fangs drain her blood?

----------


## lord_khaine

> If Max can be damaged by an attack that blows a tank in half, she's damaged by a GAU-8. Punching holes in tanks is what they do (and then the molten slug bounces around inside the tank and sets things afire). Or a Javelin. Or a recoilless rifle. Maybe not to the same degree as "blow tank in half" attack, but she can be worn down by these - and like I said earlier, a GAU-8 fires a stream of bullets. E.G., if "blow a tank in half" does 20 HP damage, a GAU-8 slug ought to do 2, and a Javelin 5.


To repeat myself. Being able to blow a tank up is just the lower bound for the shaped charge. 
If a shaped charge does 200 hp damage it will still cut a 20 hp tank in half. It will also just cut a tank shaped block of titanium in half. 
We have at no point been informed cutting a tank in half is the peak of what the shaped charge can do. Only that its the minimum. 

And from earlier author explanations of power levels we know Max is sitting somewhere between spiderman tier and thor tier in strenght, durability and flight by default.
So that confirms the shaped charge could cut a -lot- more than just a tank. Since thats the point where conventional weapons isnt viable.

As mentioned before. Thor tier is where you face tank a nuke and just complain about a ringing in the ears. 
There are a VERY long way from there, down to a GAU-8. 




> Or get her to fly really fast and plunk an invisible force field barrier in front of her. Irresistible Max meets immovable force field, that might leave a mark.


Sadly needs an actually immoveable force field for that. We dont know any supers with the power set for that. 
And seems kinda hard to make her fly into the field. It would need to be Darude sized.

We dont directly know any supers with petrification powers. 
Max does seem immune to a lot of things. Like Varia's gestalt power. 

But at the same time. Hench Wench's dumb power does mean its possible to tailor a solution for basically anyone. 
Unless it has limitations we dont know.

----------


## Traab

> To repeat myself. Being able to blow a tank up is just the lower bound for the shaped charge. 
> If a shaped charge does 200 hp damage it will still cut a 20 hp tank in half. It will also just cut a tank shaped block of titanium in half. 
> We have at no point been informed cutting a tank in half is the peak of what the shaped charge can do. Only that its the minimum. 
> 
> And from earlier author explanations of power levels we know Max is sitting somewhere between spiderman tier and thor tier in strenght, durability and flight by default.
> So that confirms the shaped charge could cut a -lot- more than just a tank. Since thats the point where conventional weapons isnt viable.
> 
> As mentioned before. Thor tier is where you face tank a nuke and just complain about a ringing in the ears. 
> There are a VERY long way from there, down to a GAU-8. 
> ...


Small thing first, pretty sure max is immune to varia because she has that damage barrier effect going on that avoids direct skin contact. Its an automatic thing as far as we can tell and it basically protects her clothes up to a point (roughly between tank and building destroying levels going by her sudden crop top and nude scene with hiro.) 

As for the bigger thing, I think you are making WAY too big an assumption about bombshell and her shaped charge. You are assuming thats the minimum of what it can do and that doesnt really fit the context of her statement. She was mind blown because her attack didnt kill maxima, so when she complains, it makes more sense that she would highball the destructive power of her attack to illustrate how bs it is that max took that without a bruise. You dont go "WHAAAA?!?!" Thats nonsense! Those 12 pounds of c-4 could easily blow up a fridge!" Instead you go "WHAAAA?! Thats nonsense! Those 12 pounds of c-4 could easily bring down a house!" (Or whatever the high end of the potential destructive power of c-4 happens to be,) So to me its more likely that her shaped charge tops out roughly around the tank destroying level or maybe a bit above, but not to whatever would be next on the destruction scale. Otherwise she would have used THAT to describe how messed up it is that her attack didnt work.

----------


## halfeye

> As for the bigger thing, I think you are making WAY too big an assumption about bombshell and her shaped charge. You are assuming thats the minimum of what it can do and that doesnt really fit the context of her statement. She was mind blown because her attack didnt kill maxima, so when she complains, it makes more sense that she would highball the destructive power of her attack to illustrate how bs it is that max took that without a bruise. You dont go "WHAAAA?!?!" Thats nonsense! Those 12 pounds of c-4 could easily blow up a fridge!" Instead you go "WHAAAA?! Thats nonsense! Those 12 pounds of c-4 could easily bring down a house!" (Or whatever the high end of the potential destructive power of c-4 happens to be,) So to me its more likely that her shaped charge tops out roughly around the tank destroying level or maybe a bit above, but not to whatever would be next on the destruction scale. Otherwise she would have used THAT to describe how messed up it is that her attack didnt work.


I don't remember the comic in question, but shaped charges are by intention very directional. A bazooka does less damage to things around the target than a hand grenade, though the bazooka probably contains a lot more explosive.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Small thing first, pretty sure max is immune to varia because she has that damage barrier effect going on that avoids direct skin contact. Its an automatic thing as far as we can tell and it basically protects her clothes up to a point (roughly between tank and building destroying levels going by her sudden crop top and nude scene with hiro.)


Yeah. And so in turn its not implausible that force field also block other stuff.




> As for the bigger thing, I think you are making WAY too big an assumption about bombshell and her shaped charge. You are assuming thats the minimum of what it can do and that doesnt really fit the context of her statement. She was mind blown because her attack didnt kill maxima, so when she complains, it makes more sense that she would highball the destructive power of her attack to illustrate how bs it is that max took that without a bruise. You dont go "WHAAAA?!?!" Thats nonsense! Those 12 pounds of c-4 could easily blow up a fridge!" Instead you go "WHAAAA?! Thats nonsense! Those 12 pounds of c-4 could easily bring down a house!" (Or whatever the high end of the potential destructive power of c-4 happens to be,) So to me its more likely that her shaped charge tops out roughly around the tank destroying level or maybe a bit above, but not to whatever would be next on the destruction scale. Otherwise she would have used THAT to describe how messed up it is that her attack didnt work.


I think its a way bigger assumption to assume that whatever frustrated thing Atomic Bombshell yelled out upon seeing her attack fail, was an accurate upper limit on her attack, instead of just -a- thing she could have exploded. 
Especially since a tank is both about the toughest target its plausible she could have tested her attack on. And the quickest way to let us know that was a really strong attack, without breaking up the flow of the comic.

This is supported by the direct word of god we have on what tier Max's abilities are in. 
So. On one hand we have a frustrated comment made by a pissed off Atomic Bombshell. On the other hand we have the author directly stating Max is normally just a step below comic Thor in durability. 
It seems rather easy to decide what statement carries the most weight here. And the conclusion then becomes Atomic Bombshell could have wrecked tougher targets than a tank with that attack. 
Even if she didnt know due to not having tested it on anything tougher.

----------


## Traab

> Yeah. And so in turn its not implausible that force field also block other stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> I think its a way bigger assumption to assume that whatever frustrated thing Atomic Bombshell yelled out upon seeing her attack fail, was an accurate upper limit on her attack, instead of just -a- thing she could have exploded. 
> Especially since a tank is both about the toughest target its plausible she could have tested her attack on. And the quickest way to let us know that was a really strong attack, without breaking up the flow of the comic.
> 
> This is supported by the direct word of god we have on what tier Max's abilities are in. 
> So. On one hand we have a frustrated comment made by a pissed off Atomic Bombshell. On the other hand we have the author directly stating Max is normally just a step below comic Thor in durability. 
> ...


Shes a step below comic thor in one stat if she dumps into it. Not in general. My conclusion is still accurate. She is durable, but unless she focuses on it, she can be injured with non nuke weaponry. And I fully disagree with your interpretation of what atomic bombshell was capable of. You dont lowball your own capabilities when you are expressing shock that they failed. Maxima is not a god. Arcswat could take her on at need. It would SUCK and be a really tough battle, but she doesnt walk away with the win in the end barring author fiat. She has had a confirmed stalemate with dabbler, was nearly flat out killed by vehemence, and barely won the first fight she had with darude. Her limits have been at least somewhat established and they do not exceed what she would be facing.

----------


## Traab

That was an excellent reveal! It made perfect sense and was only obvious in hindsight! Also, thats a very cool design.

----------


## Radar

> That was an excellent reveal! It made perfect sense and was only obvious in hindsight! Also, thats a very cool design.


Considering how she reacted to werewolves and vampires, yes. Her literacy in hentai might have helped in making her consider wider range of looks as normal.

----------


## Dragonus45

This was really cool, I like the sort of beholder style eyes design, and I love how Sydney is just low key accepting of the weirdness in a kind of wholesome way.

:EDIT: Wait I just read the authors comments, Cthilia is a girl? I swore someone used male pronouns for her at some point?

----------


## tomandtish

Is it just me or did anyone else notice that Cthilia's eyes come pretty close to matching Halo's orbs?*

*with the exception that Halo has 7 orbs and she only has 6 eyes. And 2 are yellow.

----------


## Radar

> This was really cool, I like the sort of beholder style eyes design, and I love how Sydney is just low key accepting of the weirdness in a kind of wholesome way.
> 
> :EDIT: Wait I just read the authors comments, Cthilia is a girl? I swore someone used male pronouns for her at some point?


Considering that nobody has a clue who Cthilia is, people used pronouns based on a rather random guess.




> Is it just me or did anyone else notice that Cthilia's eyes come pretty close to matching Halo's orbs?*
> 
> *with the exception that Halo has 7 orbs and she only has 6 eyes. And 2 are yellow.


I think that is largely a coincidence - if you want many vibrant and distinct colors, there is not that much choice.

----------


## DataNinja

> :EDIT: Wait I just read the authors comments, Cthilia is a girl? I swore someone used male pronouns for her at some point?


I'd thought the same thing before when they were mentioned as a girl in commentary, but as far as I could find, it had literally never come up in-comic and had only been in author's commentary.

----------


## Shining Wrath

If Hiro does not know which members of Arc were on-base at the time of the assault, and be able to account for them, he's due for a demotion. Or at a minimum, the accounting is priority #1 and ongoing. Given that the baddies were trying to take prisoners. And that very much includes the team in the basement.

----------


## Radar

> If Hiro does not know which members of Arc were on-base at the time of the assault, and be able to account for them, he's due for a demotion. Or at a minimum, the accounting is priority #1 and ongoing. Given that the baddies were trying to take prisoners. And that very much includes the team in the basement.


Why him not knowing this would even be an option? He is a competent military member and nothing suggests, he would forget about basic duties of being in command.

That being said, does this mean this fight has ended, or Hiro does not know yet about this attempt at more covert attack?

edit: and I fully support Arianna's reaction to this whole fight.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Why him not knowing this would even be an option? He is a competent military member and nothing suggests, he would forget about basic duties of being in command.
> 
> That being said, does this mean this fight has ended, or Hiro does not know yet about this attempt at more covert attack?
> 
> edit: and I fully support Arianna's reaction to this whole fight.


That's my point. If Hiro does not find out very quickly that two team members were defeated down by the vault, he's screwed up.

----------


## Traab

> That's my point. If Hiro does not find out very quickly that two team members were defeated down by the vault, he's screwed up.


Why do you think he doesnt know about them? He mentions numerous injuries after all, he hasnt given a specific person by person accounting yet. Heck, it may even be ongoing as they are still doing cleanup. Or may be covered by the fact that they are from a different department and thus will be covering their own personnel issues.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> That's my point. If Hiro does not find out very quickly that two team members were defeated down by the vault, he's screwed up.


Those guys aren't part of his team, though. Hiro is ArcSWAT, whereas Zeong is ArcLight and X is ArcDark.

----------


## Dragonus45

You know, I like this art much better then the plasticky glossy thing he usually does with the coloring.

----------


## Kantaki

> You know, I like this art much better then the plasticky glossy thing he usually does with the coloring.


It looks good, yeah. :Small Cool: 
So we probably won't get to keep it. :Small Amused:

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Those guys aren't part of his team, though. Hiro is ArcSWAT, whereas Zeong is ArcLight and X is ArcDark.


ArcSWAT exists to defend those other guys when necessary.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> ArcSWAT exists to defend those other guys when necessary.


Do you have a source for that? Because I couldn't find anything laying out ArcSWAT's exact mission in the comic.

----------


## tyckspoon

> Do you have a source for that? Because I couldn't find anything laying out ArcSWAT's exact mission in the comic.


Back toward the start of the comic, in the press conference publically announcing the existence of Archon and introducing the SWAT members. They have a pretty broad remit to handle super threats in general - trying to defend *anybody* attacked by or harmed by the actions of a super(/alien/supernatural critter, apparently) within their geographical jurisdiction is part of their mission. 


.. the other people not being part of ArcSWAT does pretty neatly explain why Hiro wouldn't include them in his situation summary, tho. Mentally they're not classed as part of 'his team' and wouldn't be his first concern to keep track of or try to contact if they hadn't already checked in and reported threats in their area.

----------


## Traab

Yeah I mean, its likely the way it works is, the intelligence agents are reporting to their boss who is talking to the head of their department who fills in the head of arcswat and they collate all their info together. Then inform max and whoever else needs to know.

----------


## The Glyphstone

Were 'The Ascenders' named as the group that enslaved Concretia, or any other group we've seen in-comic till now?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Were 'The Ascenders' named as the group that enslaved Concretia, or any other group we've seen in-comic till now?


I'm pretty sure this is the first time it's been mentioned.

----------


## The Glyphstone

https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archi...the-zygomatic/

Though answering my own question, here Harem identifies them as 'the red mask guys who grabbed Sydney', so I guess they are the same group even if they weren't given a name previously.

Now I'm curious who they took prisoner here, to identify them.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Le sigh. The top-secret list is NOT going to be on an easily removed hard drive. And it's probably not going to be a single file encrypted with a single key.

----------


## Keltest

> Le sigh. The top-secret list is NOT going to be on an easily removed hard drive. And it's probably not going to be a single file encrypted with a single key.


I feel like you are underestimating the general security of the building its in and overestimating the amount of man hours people are willing to put into creating hypothetical digital security measures for something that they do actually need to access and use periodically. If you have to spend 10 hours assembling the complete list from a dozen hard drives from across the state, you no longer have a practical tool for use in doing your job, you have an exceptionally time consuming waste of resources.'


A flash drive in a safe is already requiring a military assault on the building to recover, as we have seen. It could be a .txt file with no encryption at all and still be more secure in those conditions than plenty of digital files on internet-enabled computers.

----------


## Rydiro

> I feel like you are underestimating the general security of the building its in and overestimating the amount of man hours people are willing to put into creating hypothetical digital security measures for something that they do actually need to access and use periodically. If you have to spend 10 hours assembling the complete list from a dozen hard drives from across the state, you no longer have a practical tool for use in doing your job, you have an exceptionally time consuming waste of resources.'
> 
> 
> A flash drive in a safe is already requiring a military assault on the building to recover, as we have seen. It could be a .txt file with no encryption at all and still be more secure in those conditions than plenty of digital files on internet-enabled computers.


This. Top secret files can be ... made of paper. And in plain english too.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> I feel like you are underestimating the general security of the building its in and overestimating the amount of man hours people are willing to put into creating hypothetical digital security measures for something that they do actually need to access and use periodically. If you have to spend 10 hours assembling the complete list from a dozen hard drives from across the state, you no longer have a practical tool for use in doing your job, you have an exceptionally time consuming waste of resources.'
> 
> 
> A flash drive in a safe is already requiring a military assault on the building to recover, as we have seen. It could be a .txt file with no encryption at all and still be more secure in those conditions than plenty of digital files on internet-enabled computers.


Top Secret information is never stored on computers connected to the Internet. If it is, it's a data spill, and security officers get very excited, even if no one accesses the file. Flash drives are never allowed in SCIFs. Neither are cell phones or anything else with accessible memory. People have to jump through hoops to have a medical device if there's any memory in it.

There are data which do require both encryption in transit and also encryption at rest, even on classified systems.

This is a list of, estimated, tens of thousands of records, each comprised of perhaps a few kilobytes of text and maybe some pictures. The whole thing is under a gigabyte unless they decided to include video or several pictures per person. Your phone can encrypt and decrypt this file given the key. Multiple layers of encryption, given the presumed processing throughput of the US government's top-secret computers, are a tiny delay.

----------


## sihnfahl

> This. Top secret files can be ... made of paper. And in plain english too.


And in handy folders marked with their secrecy level, so you know their value before you even read them.

----------


## Shining Wrath

And stored in approved safes. A safe failed at work back in the day (1990's), and it took well over an hour to open it with an acetylene torch. At that, some of the documents were scorched.

And we can't have it both ways. We can't assume the existence of supers who can crack a S&G safe in seconds, and also assume that the USG, knowing these people exist, would continue to use S&G safes for their top secret stuff.

Given supers, there would probably be a lot less stuff printed on paper and stored in safes.

----------


## Keltest

> And stored in approved safes. A safe failed at work back in the day (1990's), and it took well over an hour to open it with an acetylene torch. At that, some of the documents were scorched.
> 
> And we can't have it both ways. We can't assume the existence of supers who can crack a S&G safe in seconds, and also assume that the USG, knowing these people exist, would continue to use S&G safes for their top secret stuff.
> 
> Given supers, there would probably be a lot less stuff printed on paper and stored in safes.


Why not? If they cant actually make a safe that can withstand, say, Maxima's attempts to break in, whats their alternative? Give up on security measures all together? Stop having secret documents? Do you not put a lock on your front door because somebody might ram it with a truck?

----------


## Traab

A hard drive thats in a very highly guarded safe in a highly protected area surrounded by supers and also probably not generally known to be there, (id imagine questions will be asked as to how they even knew where to go to get it) With as much encryption as they can reasonably create seems about as secure as is reasonable to expect for something that also needs to be available to be used. Oh yeah, it also self destructs if you screw up bad enough trying to gain access. They are literally estimating a week with space age tech to be able to get into the file and access the info without all the keys they need already. Years with earth level tech. What else do you freaking WANT to secure it?

----------


## Dragonus45

Like Max said ages ago. The idea of some sexy budioir shots sounds good but nothing is perfectly secure if people want it enough, especially in a world full of supers.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Why not? If they cant actually make a safe that can withstand, say, Maxima's attempts to break in, whats their alternative? Give up on security measures all together? Stop having secret documents? Do you not put a lock on your front door because somebody might ram it with a truck?


The thing about safes is that you not only need to be safe from Maxima blasting them open; you need to be safe from Maxima picking them up and taking them back to a base to be cracked at leisure. I helped my father-in-law buy a new safe; the safe had holes where I could have put lag bolts through the bottom into the studs supporting the floor, but he decided he didn't have anything so valuable that it was worth that sort of effort.

In a super-infested world, nothing is on paper at all. Instead, data is encrypted at rest and in motion; the only time it's human readable is when a human is actually reading it, and that copy is destroyed when the eyeballs go away. And then you go multi-factor authorization, so you not only have to know the password, you also need the fob with the key that changes every minute. Which you need to get from the super who carries it.

And the encrypted data is on a cloud architecture, so any particular file is likely distributed across multiple pieces of physical hardware, which might not be the same from day to day. In fact, the distributed drives might be in different rooms. My original objection holds; you don't put the most secret stuff you've got on a single piece of hardware protected by a single key.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> The thing about safes is that you not only need to be safe from Maxima blasting them open; you need to be safe from Maxima picking them up and taking them back to a base to be cracked at leisure. I helped my father-in-law buy a new safe; the safe had holes where I could have put lag bolts through the bottom into the studs supporting the floor, but he decided he didn't have anything so valuable that it was worth that sort of effort.
> 
> In a super-infested world, nothing is on paper at all. Instead, data is encrypted at rest and in motion; the only time it's human readable is when a human is actually reading it, and that copy is destroyed when the eyeballs go away. And then you go multi-factor authorization, so you not only have to know the password, you also need the fob with the key that changes every minute. Which you need to get from the super who carries it.
> 
> And the encrypted data is on a cloud architecture, so any particular file is likely distributed across multiple pieces of physical hardware, which might not be the same from day to day. In fact, the distributed drives might be in different rooms. My original objection holds; you don't put the most secret stuff you've got on a single piece of hardware protected by a single key.


The problem with that is well, quite frankly, computer systems have proven to be a lot less resilient to being hacked than a USB drive on a stick in a safe. By ordinary people no less. Not the fob part. That would be very secure. So secure as in you almost can't access the information you need to access. And considering this is a constantly updated list of individuals, that makes the fob completely impractical as a solution.

But cloud architecture means you could access it from any computer that is part of that architecture. And if you can access it at all, you likely can find a trick to copy all of it. Oh, it might not be readable and it might be encrypted, but that's no more secure than the USB stick that has the same protections. Particularly because that system needs to be designed and maintained by pretty much Leon, who isn't even a super. So the entire system could fall apart if he gets kidnapped. Or mind controlled. Or, frig, if he gets drunk and babbles about it. Something similar is probably how these guys found out about the list in the first place. 

Seriously, a high tech safe guarded by a building full of supers, and a high level of encryption is so much more secure than what you are suggesting. If anything my complaint is that the safe wasn't booby trapped to destroy the contents if it is physically forced open.

----------


## tyckspoon

Connect the safe's opening mechanism to a dimensional storage. Safe if opened correctly, opens Bag Of Holding-like effect, safe contents accessible. Safe is forced, dimensional portal is not accessed, attacker gets access to empty space/decoy items (USB drive hosting malware that will attempt to make it signal its location if they're dumb enough to plug it into a network-capable device?)/ nothing/ booby traps. Dabbler could set it up easily with demonstrated capabilities if they trust her (they don't, but she could do it) and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to have the magical/tech/magictech-capable members of Archon already shown set up something similar. Plenty of ways you could justify securing that safe/its contents in methods that would prevent 'just rip the door off' as a way of accessing it.

..but that wouldn't satisfy what Dave wants to do with the story, which I'm betting is giving Archon a reason to go full mobilization in locating and taking down the group that attacked them - not only did they, well, attack Archon and need to be Made An Example Of, they have a critical piece of information that needs to be recovered before it can be accessed and exploited.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Connect the safe's opening mechanism to a dimensional storage. Safe if opened correctly, opens Bag Of Holding-like effect, safe contents accessible. Safe is forced, dimensional portal is not accessed, attacker gets access to empty space/decoy items (USB drive hosting malware that will attempt to make it signal its location if they're dumb enough to plug it into a network-capable device?)/ nothing/ booby traps. Dabbler could set it up easily with demonstrated capabilities if they trust her (they don't, but she could do it) and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to have the magical/tech/magictech-capable members of Archon already shown set up something similar. Plenty of ways you could justify securing that safe/its contents in methods that would prevent 'just rip the door off' as a way of accessing it.
> 
> ..but that wouldn't satisfy what Dave wants to do with the story, which I'm betting is giving Archon a reason to go full mobilization in locating and taking down the group that attacked them - not only did they, well, attack Archon and need to be Made An Example Of, they have a critical piece of information that needs to be recovered before it can be accessed and exploited.


And they probably could have bypassed that as well.

----------


## Mechalich

> Seriously, a high tech safe guarded by a building full of supers, and a high level of encryption is so much more secure than what you are suggesting. If anything my complaint is that the safe wasn't booby trapped to destroy the contents if it is physically forced open.


They did say that the drive itself is booby trapped to destroy its contents. Normally that's going to be more certain and less likely to deal collateral damage than melting an entire safe (serious fire hazard that).

The reality is that the access needs of this list, somewhat at Archon probably needs to access it on at least a daily basis, make properly securing it very difficult. Keeping it in a secure offline icebox is a reasonable measure. The resources needed to simply get to that icebox and escape with the drive were substantial and the attackers would have suffered extreme casualty levels if not for the fact that Goon Squad was able to produce disposable copies to soak up damage.

----------


## Shining Wrath

OK, so they "took" Zephan, and yet, here he stands, bleeding. Conclusion: they took not-Zephan, a simulacrum, created on the fly.

----------


## halfeye

> OK, so they "took" Zephan, and yet, here he stands, bleeding. Conclusion: they took not-Zephan, a simulacrum, created on the fly.


He's a mini-Harem?

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

> He's a mini-Harem?


He has a guardian spirit. Presumably it has many different uses, among which is imitating the owner. Either they took the 'Shen Wei' thinking it was Zephan, or they actually took Zephan and he's communicating remotely via the 'Shen Wei'.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> He has a guardian spirit. Presumably it has many different uses, among which is imitating the owner. Either they took the 'Shen Wei' thinking it was Zephan, or they actually took Zephan and he's communicating remotely via the 'Shen Wei'.


Would the Shen Wei bleed, though? I think it's most likely they took the phony.

----------


## Radar

> Would the Shen Wei bleed, though? I think it's most likely they took the phony.


That's what I am thinking as well for two reasons:
1. Zeph is a professional and a pretty skilled magician, so he should have been prepared to flee and leave a decoy look-alike behind - seems like a pretty standard misdirection + escape plan.
2. He is way to calm and almost smug in that last panel for his real self to be in any substantial danger.

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

> That's what I am thinking as well for two reasons:
> 1. Zeph is a professional and a pretty skilled magician, so he should have been prepared to flee and leave a decoy look-alike behind - seems like a pretty standard misdirection + escape plan.
> 2. He is way to calm and almost smug in that last panel for his real self to be in any substantial danger.


Oh. The strip's comments reminded me.

Chimyriad.

The decoy is Chimyriad. He/she wasn't obviously present at the fight, but presuming this is actually Zephan (because of the injuries), it means Zephan's place was taken by the shapeshifter.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Oh. The strip's comments reminded me.
> 
> Chimyriad.
> 
> The decoy is Chimyriad. He/she wasn't obviously present at the fight, but presuming this is actually Zephan (because of the injuries), it means Zephan's place was taken by the shapeshifter.


Bingo. Good catch. We saw him earlier, we know he was near the fight, and when telekinesis guy goes "Whoom" there's two crunches (X and ?) and a slam (Zephan). Now, we know the Shen Wei isn't affected by the telekinesis (Zephan said so), so the middle "crunch" is presumably Chimyriad, who was in a not-noticeable form. Then he swapped himself in during the presumed confusion after the battle.

----------


## Radar

> Oh. The strip's comments reminded me.
> 
> Chimyriad.
> 
> The decoy is Chimyriad. He/she wasn't obviously present at the fight, but presuming this is actually Zephan (because of the injuries), it means Zephan's place was taken by the shapeshifter.


I tip my hat to thee!

This is a very good deduction and as Shining Wrath said, it fits the seemingly innocuous details in the comics itself.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Chimy, confirmed, and getting the snot beaten out of herself by running her mouth.

EDIT:

"You. get. me." made me chortle. Is this in-strip confirmation that Deus is a bad guy?

----------


## The Glyphstone

I think it's less admission of evil, and more that she's the only person who understands and appreciates his need for theatrics to keep life interesting. Playing into the tropes, so to speak.

----------


## Traab

Also its an over exaggerated drawing, so im guessing its technically one of those non cannon little drawings he used to do from time to time at the bottom of his comics. The smug evil grinch grin was perfect.

----------


## Keltest

> Also its an over exaggerated drawing, so im guessing its technically one of those non cannon little drawings he used to do from time to time at the bottom of his comics. The smug evil grinch grin was perfect.


I laughed pretty hard when I got to that panel. But I dont see any reason to assume it isnt canon. Its just that Deus and Sidney sometimes travel in the same lanes of a particularly silly highway.

----------


## Dragonus45

Yea the two of them share a particularly unique sense of humor and and presumably highly overlapping reference pools.

----------


## Shining Wrath

I just had to edit because I accidentally posted twice in a row - separated by 5 days.

----------


## JeenLeen

> "You. get. me." made me chortle. Is this in-strip confirmation that Deus is a bad guy?


No.  Pretty sure it's "you comprehend me and understand me" as opposed to "you caught me".  "You get me", not "you got me".

On the other hand, I think it's pretty clear that (by at least several definitions) Deus is a bad guy (both in 'bad person' and 'evil overlord' meanings), or at least he likes to make people think he is.  Just whether or not he's a problem for the protagonists is a different question.
I admit, by some definitions, he's a good guy and definitely has done a lot of good.  Just motivations and the bad he's done alongside don't balance it out aside from a very utilitarian and ends-justify-means philosophy.  (I could probably phrase that better, but not a lot of time to think on this.)

----------


## sihnfahl

> At least he likes to make people think he is.


He's a huge ham, yes, but remember it's a distraction from how manipulative he can be




> Just whether or not he's a problem for the protagonists is a different question.


Is it something important to our protagonists and him, and are the outcomes in his favor?  No problem.
Is it not important to both?  No problem.
Is it something important to both, and the outcomes are NOT in his favor?  Problem.  He wouldn't resort to murder, though, only leverage towards the outcome he wants.

And, yes, he's done a lot of bad.  He's not above having people killed, after all.  But, at least it seems like he has the philosophy of "If my subordinates prosper, I prosper."

He had multiple chances to betray or use his subordinates.  He never takes advantage.  He goes out of his way to make them loyal.  Good pay, good medical, generous dental, vacation time that involves going to places most folks are still only dreaming about (spaaaaaace!)

----------


## Shining Wrath

> No.  Pretty sure it's "you comprehend me and understand me" as opposed to "you caught me".  "You get me", not "you got me".
> 
> On the other hand, I think it's pretty clear that (by at least several definitions) Deus is a bad guy (both in 'bad person' and 'evil overlord' meanings), or at least he likes to make people think he is.  Just whether or not he's a problem for the protagonists is a different question.
> I admit, by some definitions, he's a good guy and definitely has done a lot of good.  Just motivations and the bad he's done alongside don't balance it out aside from a very utilitarian and ends-justify-means philosophy.  (I could probably phrase that better, but not a lot of time to think on this.)


"You understand me" in response to "You're a villain" suggests that Deus considers himself to have villainous traits. But I suspect it's a throwaway line for a joke and I shouldn't invest much in it.

----------


## Radar

> "You understand me" in response to "You're a villain" suggests that Deus considers himself to have villainous traits. But I suspect it's a throwaway line for a joke and I shouldn't invest much in it.


We are talking about a person, who commissioned a large TV screen with a remote for a specific purpose of creating a dramatic lightning when he wanted to go into a maniacal laughter. Deus loves the theatrics connected to traditional mustache-twirling villainy. As for him being an actual villain, he seems to believe that ends justify the means in a rather brutally utilitarian way, but at the same his ends seem to be positive for general populace so far. So... an anti-villain perhaps? We still do not know his end-goals, so things can go in many different ways.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

TV? I thought he had an actual lightning machine...

----------


## tyckspoon

> "You understand me" in response to "You're a villain" suggests that Deus considers himself to have villainous traits. But I suspect it's a throwaway line for a joke and I shouldn't invest much in it.


Deus understands the difference between a villain and a SUPERvillain.

----------


## Radar

> TV? I thought he had an actual lightning machine...


It was a high quality surface projector.



> Deus understands the difference between a villain and a SUPERvillain.


Very much so. There is also the fact that he needs something to keep himself entertained.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> It was a high quality surface projector.
> 
> Very much so. There is also the fact that he needs something to keep himself entertained.


And of course, entertaining yourself by manipulating other sentient life forms is one form of villainy.

----------


## Radar

> And of course, entertaining yourself by manipulating other sentient life forms is one form of villainy.


I was mostly referring to his theatrics, but I agree with that point as well.

----------


## Traab

At times I wonder, Deus must be incredibly bored, like flash and his living in a world of statues bored. I wonder how much of his villainous actions are because he is evil, and how much is because its the fastest way to get to the end goals he has in mind and is also the most personally entertaining as he gets to make things complicated by playing his "im totally evil and everyone knows it but good luck catching me in anything you can act on" style to troll the heck out of everyone while the plodding steps of the rest of the world plays catch up with him.

----------


## Radar

> At times I wonder, Deus must be incredibly bored, like flash and his living in a world of statues bored. I wonder how much of his villainous actions are because he is evil, and how much is because its the fastest way to get to the end goals he has in mind and is also the most personally entertaining as he gets to make things complicated by playing his "im totally evil and everyone knows it but good luck catching me in anything you can act on" style to troll the heck out of everyone while the plodding steps of the rest of the world plays catch up with him.


Kind of like Mycroft Holmes from Sherlock as well. I cannot find the most relevant quote right after the linked part, where he complains that he lives in a world of goldfish.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> It was a high quality surface projector.


Ooh, that was way earlier in the comic than I thought it was. No wonder I couldn't find it! Thanks!  :Small Smile:

----------


## sihnfahl

> Ooh, that was way earlier in the comic than I thought it was. No wonder I couldn't find it! Thanks!


Yeah, and that's why I believe he's a huge ham.  He has a surface projector specifically for the lightning crash during dramatic moments.

The fact he's doing it with Vale as his only audience only emphasizes the point to me.  Vale is an eldritch horror who's so non-plussed with his antics that her attitude needs imaginary numbers to express.

----------


## lord_khaine

I dont know. It seems like his antics amuses Vale enough to make her work for him?
At least. We have not seen much of her actual wants besides that she likes watching Deus.

----------


## Forum Explorer

So do you think there is any significance to Parfait's collar being gone this comic, or is that just art?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> So do you think there is any significance to Parfait's collar being gone this comic, or is that just art?


I'm not sure. My first guess was that it was an art error, but it's been missing from the last two comics she's appeared in as well. I'm not sure if an art error would be so long-lasting.

----------


## lord_khaine

Its an art error. She had it earlier in the same scene.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archi...tress-huggles/

----------


## Radar

> Its an art error. She had it earlier in the same scene.
> https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archi...tress-huggles/


Repetition of the mistake most likely comes from Dave looking up the previous pages to see, what the characters were wearing etc. So made a mistake once and used it as a reference afterwards.

----------


## Traab

Moving through the comics again, i swear sydney has a sort of monkey d luffy vibe going on with how she interacts with random people. Like, she seems to make friends with people determined to hate her just by babbling on. Take the latest arc, she got into a chat with carrier and by the end he was like, "Well dang, now I like your idea for a super name better." And then there was cthilla the beholderkin who is just utterly flummoxed by this whole thing. Lets not forget the whole supernatural arc where she both annoyed and befriended a vampire and a werewolf, and probably half his were kin as well as krona and the succubus representative whose name I cant remember. Her basic job was to just be there and be quiet and yet she made connections of a strange sort throughout the group. She seems to exasperate and entertain everyone she meets in equal measure and they cant help but reluctantly like her.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

I think it's just a protagonist thing. Characters almost always have a relationship with the central character, or they just end up not mattering.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Looks like Sydney's having an orb malfunction, and it's scaring her a lot.

----------


## Dragonus45

The Exchange between Dabbler and Anvil was a bit interesting. At least in our world that kind of technology is actively being researched with some fairly promising ideas but generally is just way to resource hungry for the benefit, and the moment someone figures out the efficient way to get it done there will be a _rush_ to get that much land producing delicious salable foodstuffs no worry about money at all really.

----------


## Radar

> The Exchange between Dabbler and Anvil was a bit interesting. At least in our world that kind of technology is actively being researched with some fairly promising ideas but generally is just way to resource hungry for the benefit, and the moment someone figures out the efficient way to get it done there will be a _rush_ to get that much land producing delicious salable foodstuffs no worry about money at all really.


Not just food stuff mind you. There are also other plant-based products we rely on like textiles for instance. With the drive to stop relying on fossil fuels and derived thereof plastics, there will be a huge market for plant-derived materials like PLA or even compressed oat (for one-time-use utensils and such) and hopefully even better things in the future.

----------


## lord_khaine

I remain skeptical about said rush taking place. 
Since it does seem to require a lot of effort. And generally are placed in areas noone cares about.
(except those who live there of course)

Certainly i dont think it would be for producing food if there came a rush.
It is possible for other stuff i guess. But still seems unlikely.

----------


## Keltest

The problem with terraforming the Sahara is that the amount of front-loaded effort before we see any material rewards from it is going to be enormous, so much so that people would be pretty unwilling to take those steps to get it started, and theres no guarantee we would even see any payoff in our lifetime.

----------


## sihnfahl

> The problem with terraforming the Sahara is that the amount of front-loaded effort before we see any material rewards from it is going to be enormous, so much so that people would be pretty unwilling to take those steps to get it started, and theres no guarantee we would even see any payoff in our lifetime.


"Societies grow when men plant trees knowing they'll never sit under it."

As some places have learned, one does not just reroute water from one place to another without there being a change at the original location, or in the intermediary.

Sure, we can dig trenches to make long man-made rivers to irrigate, but there's always the ramifications to deal with.

----------


## Dragonus45

So big enough desalination could provide the water, but the energy costs for that are extreme. I imagine most solutions will likely either need to wait for some technology to be a paradigm shift in how transforming the area works or will require a nuclear power plant. Then you have to hope that the same weather patterns that caused the desert in the first place don't just win in the end like it has been with the Sahelian desert. Then again a lot of efforts there were misplaced trying to blame the locals for grazing to much.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> The problem with terraforming the Sahara is that the amount of front-loaded effort before we see any material rewards from it is going to be enormous, so much so that people would be pretty unwilling to take those steps to get it started, and theres no guarantee we would even see any payoff in our lifetime.


I mean, if you were doing it all at once, sure. But you could do a few square kilometers at a time and slowly eat away at it.

----------


## Radar

One has to keep in mind, there there is water in Sahara - it's just hidden under all the sand. See this map for some interesting data (link to the relevant scientific paper is given in the article). So it is more about rebuilding the soil and keeping the water in it than finding the water itself. Besides, reversing desertification is a thing that is practiced. It's just that the current methods are rather slow. Still even with those methods much more could be done with the right effort.

----------


## lord_khaine

> "Societies grow when men plant trees knowing they'll never sit under it."


Thats a nice quote. Alas society will likely not grow much .

But at least if afrika has enough water, its a plausible task to terraform the deserts. 
Just need to engineer solutions that are viable for the local states.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Thread title proposal: "Bottom line it, Dabbler". For this comic, the double entendre is always appropriate.

And this actually makes sense. The orbs have a power source (probably one of the unknown orbs), and they are drained.

----------


## Traab

And we have a figure for how fast she can currently max out at. Mach 16 is.... pretty quick! And yeah, this is one of things things thats super obvious in hindsight. Just because we cant see whats powering it doesnt mean its infinite power.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> And we have a figure for how fast she can currently max out at. Mach 16 is.... pretty quick! And yeah, this is one of things things thats super obvious in hindsight. Just because we cant see whats powering it doesnt mean its infinite power.


And it's good to know that Sydney can't render Earth a giant glass marble without resting.

----------


## Dragonus45

It was implied previously the orbs were tied into a star in some way for their power source so actually using up the whole thing is unlikely. This is probably more a capacitor issue. Also, given the energy costs involved in melting sand like that, her _still_ being able to fly them to the coast at Mach 8 and probably even have been able to limp over the ocean if they really had too makes for a massive amount of available power when fully charged.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> It was implied previously the orbs were tied into a star in some way for their power source so actually using up the whole thing is unlikely. This is probably more a capacitor issue. Also, given the energy costs involved in melting sand like that, her _still_ being able to fly them to the coast at Mach 8 and probably even have been able to limp over the ocean if they really had too makes for a massive amount of available power when fully charged.


Oh crud. What if Halo is drawing a detectable amount of energy from Sol every time she uses lots of power via the orbs?

----------


## Dragonus45

> Oh crud. What if Halo is drawing a detectable amount of energy from Sol every time she uses lots of power via the orbs?


That would be interesting if it was tied to Sol, it then raises some questions about if it's pulling specifically from just the nearest star or if it was tied to Sol the whole time and whoever was using it from before had needed to come here to recharge it?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> It was implied previously the orbs were tied into a star in some way for their power source


Do you remember where this implication was?

----------


## lord_khaine

I dont think you can say that was implied.
When talking about how it was to use the orb.
Sydney said something about it being like touching a star.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> I dont think you can say that was implied.
> When talking about how it was to use the orb.
> Sydney said something about it being like touching a star.


That really doesn't sound like it has anything to do with how the orbs are powered.

----------


## Dragonus45

The visual of the comic in question is also relevant, "the power of a star in her hands" kind of thing to it. Which if it isn't specifically a star is likely some Nth hyper power cell powered by a giant ball of fusion which is basically a star.

----------


## Radar

> The visual of the comic in question is also relevant, "the power of a star in her hands" kind of thing to it. Which if it isn't specifically a star is likely some Nth hyper power cell powered by a giant ball of fusion which is basically a star.


And this was specifically the subjective sensation connected to using PPO. Might not have anything to do with the power source. The only thing we can tell so far is that the orbs apparently have a single, common source of power.

----------


## halfeye

> Oh crud. What if Halo is drawing a detectable amount of energy from Sol every time she uses lots of power via the orbs?


That is very improbable. The power from Sol is vast. it could glass the entire Sahara in a second. The orbs would have to be monumentally inefficient to draw enough power from a star to be detectable (an inefficiency of one out for a million in might get close to being detectable for a very small star).

The orbs probably connect to a battery somewhere, that may be stellar/solar powered.

----------


## Shining Wrath

My head canon is now that the golden orb is the battery, which somehow absorbs energy from the environment. The interesting question is how long it will need to recharge. Might we wind up with Sydney & Dabbler & Anvil spending some time in Senegal?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> The visual of the comic in question is also relevant, "the power of a star in her hands" kind of thing to it. Which if it isn't specifically a star is likely some Nth hyper power cell powered by a giant ball of fusion which is basically a star.


In that comic, Sydney is describing what it felt like to use the PPO. There's absolutely no reason to think the metaphor she chose to use has anything to do with how the orbs are powered.

----------


## Traab

The worrisome thing here is recharge time. Sydney didnt just blink from glassing the sand to the award ceremony, there was downtime in between when she wasnt doing anything. So we may have a real issue in that its not recharging at all and is in fact running out of power quickly unless they can figure out how to fix things. Maybe she needs the right chant? "In brightest day, in blackest night, no evil shall escape my sight. Let those who worship evils might, beware my power, green lanterns light!"

----------


## Shining Wrath

> The worrisome thing here is recharge time. Sydney didnt just blink from glassing the sand to the award ceremony, there was downtime in between when she wasnt doing anything. So we may have a real issue in that its not recharging at all and is in fact running out of power quickly unless they can figure out how to fix things. Maybe she needs the right chant? "In brightest day, in blackest night, no evil shall escape my sight. Let those who worship evils might, beware my power, green lanterns light!"


It is possible that the orbs have never been recharged at all since Sydney found them, that the entire time they've been running on "battery" power, and that recharging them will involve help from Cleo / Dabbler.

----------


## lord_khaine

This is a pretty interesting development. 
I am genuinely curious about where it goes now.

----------


## Deliverance

> The worrisome thing here is recharge time. Sydney didnt just blink from glassing the sand to the award ceremony, there was downtime in between when she wasnt doing anything. So we may have a real issue in that its not recharging at all and is in fact running out of power quickly unless they can figure out how to fix things. Maybe she needs the right chant? "In brightest day, in blackest night, no evil shall escape my sight. Let those who worship evils might, beware my power, green lanterns light!"


For all we know, the orbs were nearly drained after the protracted battle on planet $whatever and creating the aetherium causeway to space station $whocares, and have been operating in power saving mode ever since.

Does creating an aetherium causeway over multiple lightyears require more energy than glassing a few square kilometers of sand? Who knows.

I do find it interesting that Dabbler appears to not even consider that issue, focusing instead of the latest energy-intensive activity as explanation.

----------


## Radar

> For all we know, the orbs were nearly drained after the protracted battle on planet $whatever and creating the aetherium causeway to space station $whocares, and have been operating in power saving mode ever since.
> 
> Does creating an aetherium causeway over multiple lightyears require more energy than glassing a few square kilometers of sand? Who knows.
> 
> I do find it interesting that Dabbler appears to not even consider that issue, focusing instead of the latest energy-intensive activity as explanation.


If they were operating in power-saving mode since than it would have at least some noticeable effects. If the alien world escapade has any bearing on the current situation depends mostly on how big the energy reserves are vs. how fast do they replenish. We have no data on it and neither does Dabbler. Still, the orbs worked perfectly fine until now. A sharp decline in performance would suggest that the problem was caused by recent usage.

Additionally, Dabbler did not witness what Sydney did on the former Alari homeworld, so it is rather natural that it is not the first thing she thought of.

There is also a narrative reason for the alien battle not to matter. If the orbs took so long to regain power, it would severely limit their use in the future.

----------


## Shining Wrath

The physics question of "How much energy is needed to warp?" may be related to the question of "How many aliens must Halo slay to level up?". In fact, that may be what recharges the battery - killing things. Halo needs to head east into Mali, find some ISIS types, and grind up a level.

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

It's entirely possible that the orbs need to idle before they can start recharging.

You know how it is in videogames. Your stamina won't start coming back in earnest until you've stopped expending it for a while.

For all that Sydney did on the alien planet, it probably wasn't _all that much_. Her shield stopped a small nuke's worth of damage, and she spent maybe a couple hours intermittently fighting. Plus created an FTL rift, which is an unknown quantity. Creating the 'obbedisk' may well have been a greater exertion of power, and she's spent time flying and whatnot on top of that.

Maybe Syd just needs a good 'full rest', i.e. a night's sleep.

It's also possible the orbs can't recharge to full one _just one_ night's sleep if they've been severely drained before, so several consecutive days of exertion with only the standard eight hours of sleep might be enough to slowly bring them to depletion.

Maybe putting points into the 'center' of the skilltree upgrades energy regeneration?

----------


## Shining Wrath

> It's entirely possible that the orbs need to idle before they can start recharging.
> 
> You know how it is in videogames. Your stamina won't start coming back in earnest until you've stopped expending it for a while.
> 
> For all that Sydney did on the alien planet, it probably wasn't _all that much_. Her shield stopped a small nuke's worth of damage, and she spent maybe a couple hours intermittently fighting. Plus created an FTL rift, which is an unknown quantity. Creating the 'obbedisk' may well have been a greater exertion of power, and she's spent time flying and whatnot on top of that.
> 
> Maybe Syd just needs a good 'full rest', i.e. a night's sleep.
> 
> It's also possible the orbs can't recharge to full one _just one_ night's sleep if they've been severely drained before, so several consecutive days of exertion with only the standard eight hours of sleep might be enough to slowly bring them to depletion.
> ...


Right. We don't know how the orbs are powered, at all. We don't know what the recovery mechanism looks like. We don't know how much each of the orbs consumes; maybe the real power consumer was using the atmosphere orb to produce only nitrogen. That seems unlikely, but it's essentially magic, not tech, so far as anyone other than Dabbler is concerned, and even she might be guessing for Nth level tech.

I think we're about to see Halo need to help Dabbler and Anvil fight baddies without orb power. Something tells me they won't just shop in Senegal.

----------


## Radar

> Right. We don't know how the orbs are powered, at all. We don't know what the recovery mechanism looks like. We don't know how much each of the orbs consumes; maybe the real power consumer was using the atmosphere orb to produce only nitrogen. That seems unlikely, but it's essentially magic, not tech, so far as anyone other than Dabbler is concerned, and even she might be guessing for Nth level tech.
> 
> I think we're about to see Halo need to help Dabbler and Anvil fight baddies without orb power. Something tells me they won't just shop in Senegal.


Nitrogen or any other matter generation might not be a flashy power, but it could indeed be a huge energy sink far outpacing glassing a few square kilometers of land regardless if it takes all the subatomic particles from the surrounding or just outright creates them. To get the idea how much more energy you need, compare the temperature requirements for melting sand (a bit below 2000K) with those for fusing deuterium into helium: about 100 million K for our reactors or "just" 15 million K for the Sun due to insanely high pressure of 2.65*10^10 bars. And that is one of the simplest fusion reactions - synthesizing any heavier elements requires even more extreme conditions.

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

> Nitrogen or any other matter generation might not be a flashy power, but it could indeed be a huge energy sink far outpacing glassing a few square kilometers of land regardless if it takes all the subatomic particles from the surrounding or just outright creates them. To get the idea how much more energy you need, compare the temperature requirements for melting sand (a bit below 2000K) with those for fusing deuterium into helium: about 100 million K for our reactors or "just" 15 million K for the Sun due to insanely high pressure of 2.65*10^10 bars. And that is one of the simplest fusion reactions - synthesizing any heavier elements requires even more extreme conditions.


It's important to note that fusion is basically brute force, literally smashing particles together until something sticks. If one has technology to directly interfere in and influence subatomic interactions (for scientific implausibility see exhibit A: Aetheric Causeway), manipulating atomic composition could be a relatively trivial matter, having more to do with precision than sheer power.

----------


## lord_khaine

I do also find it plausible its actually creating the Obsidian disk that was the biggest energy expenditure.
But unlikely this will ever get answered. 

What is interesting is if this will lead anywhere.
Or if the orbs recharge themselves eventually.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> I do also find it plausible its actually creating the Obsidian disk that was the biggest energy expenditure.
> But unlikely this will ever get answered. 
> 
> What is interesting is if this will lead anywhere.
> Or if the orbs recharge themselves eventually.


Well, if Dave has grown weary of this strip, this is near the end. Halo will be forced into retirement, and the attackers will defeat ArcSwat, and the strip will conclude with them announcing their intentions for the United States. Barack Obama is still President so far as we know, he'll get to negotiate the surrender.

Otherwise we know a mechanism for recharging the orbs will be found after adventures in Africa, and the guys who attacked ArcSwat are about to experience Full Angry Maxima.

----------


## Pax1138

> Well, if Dave has grown weary of this strip, this is near the end. Halo will be forced into retirement, and the attackers will defeat ArcSwat, and the strip will conclude with them announcing their intentions for the United States. Barack Obama is still President so far as we know, he'll get to negotiate the surrender.
> 
> Otherwise we know a mechanism for recharging the orbs will be found after adventures in Africa, and the guys who attacked ArcSwat are about to experience Full Angry Maxima.


It'd be amazing if the comic ended now, considering we haven't even made it back to the prologue timeline-wise.

----------


## halfeye

> It'd be amazing if the comic ended now, considering we haven't even made it back to the prologue timeline-wise.


Things on the web go on permanent hiatus all the time. Which is no fun for we readers/watchers, but it happens a lot.

----------


## Traab

For all we know, each orb has its own power reserve so that draining one wont shut down all of them. After all, using the space ship analogy, you dont want to lose life support because you over used the tractor beam. Sydney has been doing a lot of flying, including bringing a large group with her, while moving as fast as she can, its not impossible that after her extensive remodeling of the nearby desert, which probably involved a LOT of zooming back and forth at mach 16 to get done in a reasonable time frame, that its just her flight orb (and maybe blaster orb) that are running on power save mode.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> For all we know, each orb has its own power reserve so that draining one wont shut down all of them. After all, using the space ship analogy, you dont want to lose life support because you over used the tractor beam.


That's kind of a bad analogy, though, since most spaceships in science fiction have one main power source and do, on occasion, have to prioritize shutting down some systems to keep life support online or vice versa.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> For all we know, each orb has its own power reserve so that draining one wont shut down all of them. After all, using the space ship analogy, you dont want to lose life support because you over used the tractor beam. Sydney has been doing a lot of flying, including bringing a large group with her, while moving as fast as she can, its not impossible that after her extensive remodeling of the nearby desert, which probably involved a LOT of zooming back and forth at mach 16 to get done in a reasonable time frame, that its just her flight orb (and maybe blaster orb) that are running on power save mode.


I mean, the point of the last comic seems to be that they don't have their own power reserve. Thus Sydney's flying speed is slowing down because of all the energy she used making the disk. That is what Dabbler is saying anyways.

----------


## Traab

> I mean, the point of the last comic seems to be that they don't have their own power reserve. Thus Sydney's flying speed is slowing down because of all the energy she used making the disk. That is what Dabbler is saying anyways.


Yeah but she could be wrong, its just as likely she over used the flying orb doing all that. A quick 30 second test of her other orbs just to see if there are different issues with each is in order. Oh, and orb issues aside, is them going shopping considered legal? I mean, they havent entered the country through customs or anything of the sort. Yeah they likely had permission to fly over, but there is a big difference between just passing by and staying to do some tourism. Doubly so as government agents.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Yeah but she could be wrong, its just as likely she over used the flying orb doing all that. A quick 30 second test of her other orbs just to see if there are different issues with each is in order. Oh, and orb issues aside, is them going shopping considered legal? I mean, they havent entered the country through customs or anything of the sort. Yeah they likely had permission to fly over, but there is a big difference between just passing by and staying to do some tourism. Doubly so as government agents.


Sure she could be wrong, but from a meta result that would only serve to mislead the reader or allow Dave a way to retcon things. But for us to have a good idea on what's going on I feel it is more likely that Dabbler is correct.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Anvil is adorable when she's thinking about shopping, and Halo's knowledge of meta-narrative remains strong.

----------


## Traab

I like how the very next comic answered my question. Im glad dave didnt have them just wander into a foreign country and go shopping as if there is no way that could be an issue. And in fairness, it probably wouldnt be an issue realistically as 99% of the time nothing would happen, the government probably would have never known they were there, etc. But being a comic something was always going to happen, so best to make their presence official before the excrement hits the blades of a rotating device.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> I like how the very next comic answered my question. Im glad dave didnt have them just wander into a foreign country and go shopping as if there is no way that could be an issue. And in fairness, it probably wouldnt be an issue realistically as 99% of the time nothing would happen, the government probably would have never known they were there, etc. But being a comic something was always going to happen, so best to make their presence official before the excrement hits the blades of a rotating device.


Halo is a global celebrity and doesn't have a backpack or mailing tube to store the orbs. She'd be spotted in seconds.

----------


## lord_khaine

I did like the author blog on the state of the rest of the world. 
Confirming that other places indeed did have their own supers employed.
Just less publicly.

I also kinda liked the idea of a public team of flashy B-tier heroes.
Working with a low-key A-team of badasses. 

Like imagine thinking all you had to steal the Eifel tower were to beat the Teen Titans.
And then learn the old drunk bum at the base were Superman wearing a false beard  :Small Big Grin: 

Does then annoy me a tiny bit we have yet another place who need American supers to fix their local problems.
But alas, the demands of the story.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> I did like the author blog on the state of the rest of the world. 
> Confirming that other places indeed did have their own supers employed.
> Just less publicly.
> 
> I also kinda liked the idea of a public team of flashy B-tier heroes.
> Working with a low-key A-team of badasses. 
> 
> Like imagine thinking all you had to steal the Eifel tower were to beat the Teen Titans.
> And then learn the old drunk bum at the base were Superman wearing a false beard 
> ...


The canonical Superman disguise is a pair of glasses.  :Small Smile: 
Since this story is about the American supers, they are needed everywhere. I wonder what would have happened to Galtyn if Maxima and Halo hadn't been available when Darude arrived?

But yeah, keeping your best weapons in reserve for crisis makes sense. The USA is still sending F-16's and F-15's into battle. If the F-22's come out, it means we're seriously annoyed.

----------


## Gez

> But yeah, keeping your best weapons in reserve for crisis makes sense. The USA is still sending F-16's and F-15's into battle. If the F-22's come out, it means we're seriously annoyed.


Mostly because there aren't enough of them.  :Small Big Grin:  The program was canceled to redirect the budget into making MRAPs for Iraq and Afghanistan that were then mostly abandoned there eventually.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Mostly because there aren't enough of them.  The program was canceled to redirect the budget into making MRAPs for Iraq and Afghanistan that were then mostly abandoned there eventually.


There was an attack by Russian mercenaries and their local supporters on a US base in Syria. The Raptors flew that time. IIRC Wagner lost 200 people and no US person was even injured. Mercs found out about air power in a desert.

----------


## Gez

> There was an attack by Russian mercenaries and their local supporters on a US base in Syria. The Raptors flew that time. IIRC Wagner lost 200 people and no US person was even injured. Mercs found out about air power in a desert.


The F-22 is specialized in air-to-air, it's not a groundpounder. It does have some air-to-ground capabilities, but they're no better in that role than what an F-16 Viper or an F-15 Strike Eagle, because it's not what they're supposed to do. (Which is wipe out enemy aircraft.)

The Battle of Khasham was mostly an artillery job anyway, with airpower being more useful to direct fire.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> The F-22 is specialized in air-to-air, it's not a groundpounder. It does have some air-to-ground capabilities, but they're no better in that role than what an F-16 Viper or an F-15 Strike Eagle, because it's not what they're supposed to do. (Which is wipe out enemy aircraft.)
> 
> The Battle of Khasham was mostly an artillery job anyway, with airpower being more useful to direct fire.


Air superiority fighters are different than multi-role fighters, agreed. My point is only that the battle was important enough that the Raptors flew. The F-15 is also air superiority, the F-16 and F-35, multi-role.

----------


## halfeye

> Air superiority fighters are different than multi-role fighters, agreed. My point is only that the battle was important enough that the Raptors flew. The F-15 is also air superiority, the F-16 and F-35, multi-role.


I suspect you are confused about that. There are many versions of the F15 and F16, some F15s have a bigger bomb load than the WW2 Lancaster.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> I suspect you are confused about that. There are many versions of the F15 and F16, some F15s have a bigger bomb load than the WW2 Lancaster.


Yes, the Strike Eagle was a fighter-bomber while the Eagle is an air superiority bird.




> The F-15 was originally envisioned as a pure air-superiority aircraft. Its design included a secondary ground-attack capability[4] that was largely unused. The aircraft design proved flexible enough that an improved all-weather strike derivative, the F-15E Strike Eagle, was later developed, entered service in 1989 and has been exported to several nations.

----------


## halfeye

> Yes, the Strike Eagle was a fighter-bomber while the Eagle is an air superiority bird.





> Designed as an air superiority day fighter, it evolved into a successful all-weather multirole aircraft.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera...ighting_Falcon

This could go in circles for weeks, let's not do that.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Does then annoy me a tiny bit we have yet another place who need American supers to fix their local problems.
> But alas, the demands of the story.


To be fair Dave does call this out as a small annoyance that's on the government's to do list for their supers, but are just taking the opportunity to have Halo, Anvil, and Dabbler do it for them to same themselves the bother. It's not something they strictly need them to do.

----------


## lord_khaine

Hmm fair i read it as a "need help" not a "nice with help" myself.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Dave said this gang is like #8 or #10 on their "to-do" list, so when a team of supers shows up unexpectedly needing a favor, they have them handle the problem.

And for pity's sake, Dave, a disguise is not blackface. Navy SEALs will put black all over their faces before missions; it's not to insult anyone or a form of entertainment, it's because white is easier to pick out in the darkness and SEALs dislike being shot in the face. It's a little silly to wear all black gear and then have a white blob bobbing along saying "here I am".

----------


## Traab

> To be fair Dave does call this out as a small annoyance that's on the government's to do list for their supers, but are just taking the opportunity to have Halo, Anvil, and Dabbler do it for them to same themselves the bother. It's not something they strictly need them to do.


Yeah thats how I saw it, not as an american version of the great white savior, more as a "Well, do us a favor and we will do one for you." At most its the equivalent of "Yeah we could send in our own cops to solve the hostage crisis, but superman is right here and could resolve it safer and he wants something from us, so why not make a deal?" What that DOES make me wonder is the general legalities here. I mean, technically, arcswat is a US military/police force thats supposed to operate stateside. So asking them to do some sort of official favor in another nation seems kinda hinky as they need permission from their own commanders as well as the locals to do anything official there id assume. Can an ambassador do that? Does anvil have enough rank to make that call?

----------


## lord_khaine

> And for pity's sake, Dave, a disguise is not blackface. Navy SEALs will put black all over their faces before missions; it's not to insult anyone or a form of entertainment, it's because white is easier to pick out in the darkness and SEALs dislike being shot in the face. It's a little silly to wear all black gear and then have a white blob bobbing along saying "here I am".


I do think the concept itself is dumb enough it makes me want to rant or break into profanities.
But at least its inferred its just Sydney being dumb.




> Yeah thats how I saw it, not as an american version of the great white savior, more as a "Well, do us a favor and we will do one for you." At most its the equivalent of "Yeah we could send in our own cops to solve the hostage crisis, but superman is right here and could resolve it safer and he wants something from us, so why not make a deal?" What that DOES make me wonder is the general legalities here. I mean, technically, arcswat is a US military/police force thats supposed to operate stateside. So asking them to do some sort of official favor in another nation seems kinda hinky as they need permission from their own commanders as well as the locals to do anything official there id assume. Can an ambassador do that? Does anvil have enough rank to make that call?


Its also in turn a lot better now its revealed the task is just to find the gang.
Makes the favor seem a bit more reasonable.

----------


## Dragonus45

I'm almost afraid to go into the comment section on the site now.

----------


## lord_khaine

I dont. And can inform you its actually fairly dull right now.

Well its nice to see the Captain is ready to take one for the team.
Dont ask anything of them your not ready to do yourself.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Confirmed: supers are 1/100,000, more likely to be found in richer nations. USA should have on the order of 3320  supers. China, 12,000.

----------


## Radar

Concerning today's page: I have to admit that while this is not a new trick, it is a very effective one.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Confirmed: supers are 1/100,000, more likely to be found in richer nations. USA should have on the order of 3320 supers. China, 12,000.


Yeah. Going from the author notes of Sengal having 80-170 supers. 
Then even putting china on the same rate leaves them with 6.000-12.000 supers. 

The implications of that is staggering long term. 




> I have to admit that while this is not a new trick, it is a very effective one.


Suddenly everything makes a -lot- more sense on why they needed outside assistance.
When the group they are dealing with have infiltrated the police station.

Still that guy is stupidly bold. Deciding to try and kidnap a foreign super.
In what world did the moron think that would end well?
I mean, i guess someone decided it might be possible to steal the orbs when i think about it.
That means the gun guy was disposable though.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Yeah. Going from the author notes of Sengal having 80-170 supers. 
> Then even putting china on the same rate leaves them with 6.000-12.000 supers. 
> 
> The implications of that is staggering long term. 
> 
> 
> 
> Suddenly everything makes a -lot- more sense on why they needed outside assistance.
> When the group they are dealing with have infiltrated the police station.
> ...


The bad guys are also pretty dumb if they didn't consider the possibility of Local Supers and Visiting Supers forming an alliance.

----------


## Radar

> The bad guys are also pretty dumb if they didn't consider the possibility of Local Supers and Visiting Supers forming an alliance.


They might not have the information on what kind of powers the local supers have, so disguise was a genuine surprise. That, and they trusted their moles in the police too much. Trying to go for the most vulnerable team member was not a bad plan in of itself, but battle plan is the first casualty of war.

----------


## Keltest

> They might not have the information on what kind of powers the local supers have, so disguise was a genuine surprise. That, and they trusted their moles in the police too much. Trying to go for the most vulnerable team member was not a bad plan in of itself, but battle plan is the first casualty of war.


Honestly, "pretty dumb" is more likely to cover it. Smarter people usually have less risky options that let them better lead the lives they want. Or are at least better at identifying them.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Honestly, "pretty dumb" is more likely to cover it. Smarter people usually have less risky options that let them better lead the lives they want. Or are at least better at identifying them.


IIRC the average convicted felon in the United States reads at a 3rd grade level. They aren't criming to pad their income earned as nuclear physicists.

I don't know if I'd describe Halo as the most vulnerable member of the team. If she can put a finger on the right orb, she's inside a nigh-invulnerable shield. The assumption that the orbs are in the backpack may be a bad one.

----------


## halfeye

> I don't know if I'd describe Halo as the most vulnerable member of the team.


Maybe, maybe not, but that's Dabbler.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> I don't know if I'd describe Halo as the most vulnerable member of the team. If she can put a finger on the right orb, she's inside a nigh-invulnerable shield. The assumption that the orbs are in the backpack may be a bad one.


Sydney with her shield up may be tougher than Anvil, but unlike Sydney's shield Anvil's super-toughness is active all the time. In the context of an ambush, Sydney is definitely the more vulnerable of the two.

----------


## tyckspoon

> Sydney with her shield up may be tougher than Anvil, but unlike Sydney's shield Anvil's super-toughness is active all the time. In the context of an ambush, Sydney is definitely the more vulnerable of the two.


.. in this particular case of somebody trying to threaten her from directly next to her, tho, the would-be kidnapper is quite likely to be rudely surprised by a concussive orb upside the head from their blind side.

----------


## Shining Wrath

That's not dabbler. It's a Lionness.

----------


## Radar

> .. in this particular case of somebody trying to threaten her from directly next to her, tho, the would-be kidnapper is quite likely to be rudely surprised by a concussive orb upside the head from their blind side.


Provided that Sydney would be able to do it quickly and without being noticed. Considering that there are no orbs floating around her and she has to have them close, an assumption that they would all be in the bag was valid and that bag can be watched. Time for the orb to boink the kidnapper vs. time to pull the trigger would not have been favorable to Sydney.

----------


## lord_khaine

I completely agree with you there.
Had this been Sydney. Then yeah she had basically been caught/killed if the captor had the guts to pull the trigger. 
The orbs dont move quickly enough. 

The thing i critiqued was it did not seem to plan much from that point. 
You caught Sydney. Then what?

But good points on the IQ of the average criminal. 
I guess society badly needs more jobs for dumb people. 
So they dont end like disposable pawns.

----------


## Radar

> The thing i critiqued was it did not seem to plan much from that point. 
> You caught Sydney. Then what?


Good question, but this is always the case with any kind of hostage situation. You typically demand something and have a well planned escape. I'd say the next point would have been to quickly hightail with Sydney to some secure and more importantly unknown location. It is a high risk operation, but not impossible. Concretia did manage to catch Sydney and that operation would fully succeed if it were not for the high-tech glasses with communication options. Those guys storming ARC headquarters also managed to get a specific item and a person out. If they will be able to keep operating after ARCSWAT deals with them is another matter.

We do not know much about that criminal organization and what resources do they have, so it is not easy to estimate how well did they prepare for this (given short notice obviously). I would definitely expect that this guy with a gun was not alone there and there are more people on the lookout, with more guns pointed at the heroes or just with some vehicles ready to ride. I also expect all those potential extra people to bail out of there right this very moment. The more savvy among them would do it in a calm and inconspicuous manner. I guess we will see how things unfold.




> But good points on the IQ of the average criminal. 
> I guess society badly needs more jobs for dumb people. 
> So they dont end like disposable pawns.


I'd say we should have way better education so that fewer people end up dumb instead.

----------


## halfeye

> I guess society badly needs more jobs for dumb people. 
> So they dont end like disposable pawns.


There are plenty, but the people who get those jobs are wacky silly folks who are actually quite intelligent, and end up hating the jobs because they aren't suited to them.

----------


## lord_khaine

> If they will be able to keep operating after ARCSWAT deals with them is another matter.


Yeah thats the issue i though off. The risk of the mission itself is bad enough.
But its compounded by the risk of retaliation.




> I'd say we should have way better education so that fewer people end up dumb instead.


I differ between dumb and uneducated. But yeah higher education standards go a long way.
Some people just end with the short end of the smart stick though. They should still have something meaningful to do.

edit.
Oh.. it took a 2nd reading for the comment on the 2nd panel to trigger.
Well played Dave  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Shining Wrath

They didn't call you, Sydney, because your orbs are underpowered and you could get killed.

----------


## lord_khaine

Quite likely yeah. 
For that matter, the fight is in the middle of a crowded street. 
No need to draw Sydney in if you got it in hand.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Quite likely yeah. 
> For that matter, the fight is in the middle of a crowded street. 
> No need to draw Sydney in if you got it in hand.


From what I can discern from the art, the Lionesses plus Anvil are winning. Atop the walls somebody is getting a Cyclops eye-blast, clinging to the wall a Lioness is blasting downward, and Anvil is elbow-dropping some guy who probably thought he was strong until 30 seconds ago.

I don't see Dabbler. She can probably shut any Garcon of her choice down, hopefully without killing them.

----------


## Radar

> From what I can discern from the art, the Lionesses plus Anvil are winning. Atop the walls somebody is getting a Cyclops eye-blast, clinging to the wall a Lioness is blasting downward, and Anvil is elbow-dropping some guy who probably thought he was strong until 30 seconds ago.
> 
> I don't see Dabbler. She can probably shut any Garcon of her choice down, hopefully without killing them.


In that panoramic panel it is not some Lioness blasting down while clinging to a wall - that's Anvil full-force throwing her opponent into the ground mid-falling - note the hair color and clothing.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> In that panoramic panel it is not some Lioness blasting down while clinging to a wall - that's Anvil full-force throwing her opponent into the ground mid-falling - note the hair color and clothing.


Oh that poor guy. Anvil is about to fall on him and convert kinetic energy into strength and he's going to be embedded in the pavement.

----------


## lord_khaine

Eh. I think his problem is more, that its not really possible to beat Anvil by punching back at her.
Kinetic absorption is really, really strong. Not much to do, except perhaps choke her out if your a very skilled grapler.
Well not much to do without exotic super powers of course.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Eh. I think his problem is more, that its not really possible to beat Anvil by punching back at her.
> Kinetic absorption is really, really strong. Not much to do, except perhaps choke her out if your a very skilled grapler.
> Well not much to do without exotic super powers of course.


She's sort-of Vehemence in that regard. The more you hurt her, the stronger she gets.
But coming off the wall and falling 30 feet, then elbowing the target? Well, we don't know his powers, but unless he's another Anvil / Vehemence type, he's going to wish he'd stayed home today. That's gonna leave a mark.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Eh. I think his problem is more, that its not really possible to beat Anvil by punching back at her.
> Kinetic absorption is really, really strong. Not much to do, except perhaps choke her out if your a very skilled grapler.
> Well not much to do without exotic super powers of course.


Thing is, choking her out lets her absorb that as well since well, it is still the same sort of force. You'd need to through some sort of knock out poison in her face to knock her unconscious, or something like that.

----------


## lord_khaine

> But coming off the wall and falling 30 feet, then elbowing the target? Well, we don't know his powers, but unless he's another Anvil / Vehemence type, he's going to wish he'd stayed home today. That's gonna leave a mark.


Ah.. a 30 feet fall, even for someone of Anvils weight? Its not that serious for someone able to soak tank busting attacks. 
And if you cant do that, you should have stayed at home when Anvil is out dancing.




> Thing is, choking her out lets her absorb that as well since well, it is still the same sort of force. You'd need to through some sort of knock out poison in her face to knock her unconscious, or something like that.


If that was the case it would not be possible to shift her against her will. 
From the comic it seems clear what she can absorb is impacts

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Ah.. a 30 feet fall, even for someone of Anvils weight? Its not that serious for someone able to soak tank busting attacks. 
> And if you cant do that, you should have stayed at home when Anvil is out dancing.
> 
> 
> 
> If that was the case it would not be possible to shift her against her will. 
> From the comic it seems clear what she can absorb is impacts


The point of the 30 foot fall is that Anvil is going to turn that kinetic energy into additional force behind her elbow. It's not "250 pound Amazon falls, elbows you", it's "250 pound Amazon falls 30 feet and converts the kinetic energy of that fall into force applied through the elbow, which is about 5 square inches".

Also, the Men of Gold perhaps don't know what Anvil can do. She's not the famous one. Fame is not necessarily related to power; I think Ariana downplays Dabbler, for one.

----------


## lord_khaine

Except.. thats basically the same. If 100 kg amazon drops on you elbow first.
Or if 100 kg amazon drops on you, but absorbs the hit so it feels like getting smacked by a pillow, then delivers the energy of the drop a second later. 

And no Anvils power is confidential.
Publicly she is just a walking brick.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Except.. thats basically the same. If 100 kg amazon drops on you elbow first.
> Or if 100 kg amazon drops on you, but absorbs the hit so it feels like getting smacked by a pillow, then delivers the energy of the drop a second later. 
> 
> And no Anvils power is confidential.
> Publicly she is just a walking brick.


And if you've never ever heard of her, she's just a big woman. Until she bricks you.
The force of a falling person is distributed across the entire surface area, hundreds of square inches.
The force of Anvil transferring that energy into her elbow is applied to a few square inches.
It's the difference between lying on a bed of nails and stepping on a nail.
Which one is more likely to put Large Black Garcon d'OR Brick down for the count?

----------


## lord_khaine

> And if you've never ever heard of her, she's just a big woman. Until she bricks you.
> The force of a falling person is distributed across the entire surface area, hundreds of square inches.
> The force of Anvil transferring that energy into her elbow is applied to a few square inches.
> It's the difference between lying on a bed of nails and stepping on a nail.
> Which one is more likely to put Large Black Garcon d'OR Brick down for the count?


Yes. For example applied to a few square inches when Anvil drops on someone elbow first. 
But i am confused on what relation this have to my statement.

Since no. This does not make absorbing the elbow impact. Then delivering a new impact afterwards any more practical.
Heck. We so far dont have any evidence Anvil is able to release kinetic energy from anything but her hands. 
Or as anything but an unfocused blast.

----------


## Radar

Concerning Anvil, she also absorbed an explosive blast here. As to how she can release that energy I am not sure, but she most likely channeled quite a lot of it here (same purple light rings as with the punch here).

----------


## lord_khaine

Oh actually. The text there explains Anvil's kinetic absorption ability isnt perfect.
She can absorb explosions, but not bullets/shrapnel completely.

edit.
New comic. 
I think it worked well.

edit 2.
Credit is due. This comic is seriously freaky.

----------


## Radar

> edit 2.
> Credit is due. This comic is seriously freaky.


Indeed. Very good page and quite a solid take on drawing unspeakable imagery. You can almost hear the pencil writing in SAN damage on character sheets of everyone in that room.  :Small Big Grin:  Kind of reminds me of the scene where Sciona learned a thing or two about Vale.

----------


## The Glyphstone

Today's comic is funny, and today's commentariat raises some very good points about the existentially terrifying implications of having temporary clones with individual opinions.

----------


## lord_khaine

I do kinda hope this is a trap for Max of some sort.
Since otherwise it would be a disappointing degree of incompetence from the villains. 
But at the same time, it does seem? like that facility is mostly stacked with expendable components.

At least right now i would say the most expensive thing there is the underground bunker.
The guards are goon squad. And basically as expendable as its possible to get. 
While the Masked Morons we saw dont seem to be supers.

----------


## The Glyphstone

I do like the justification though, that Goon Squad's duplicates get stupider the more he spawns and its the fault of his bosses for over extending him like he is.

I think their only other real screw-up was not expecting a shape-shifting infiltrator. But that is very hard to predict+plan for since superhumans are so individually varied.

----------


## Radar

> I do like the justification though, that Goon Squad's duplicates get stupider the more he spawns and its the fault of his bosses for over extending him like he is.
> 
> I think their only other real screw-up was not expecting a shape-shifting infiltrator. But that is very hard to predict+plan for since superhumans are so individually varied.


Still, the interrogation cell should have some cameras in - someone outside of that room should observe the interrogation process and sound alarm immediately when things went south for the masked dudes.

----------


## Shining Wrath

I must agree that not having a window into the interrogation room is class-A dumb. It's "Legions of Terror have masks that obscure their faces" level of dumb.

And there's no trap that's going to trap all of Arc Swat. If you're planning on winning, you don't want to have the whole team show up ready for battle - and if you can win that, why didn't you just occupy Arc HQ anyway?

----------


## lord_khaine

Not expecting a shape shifter here is kinda reasonable, since it was an extreme stroke of luck that allowed this replacement.
After their leader had already fought Zephan to confirm his identity. 
So in case, not having a window into the interrogation room is kinda eh. 
Instead they had people with Zephan at all time. That seems like about the same thing.

What i am perhaps disappointed in. Is the lack of preparation for mind tricks.
Thats the thing i would initially be most concerned about with a captive wizard like Zephan.
Him doing mind-tricks on his interogator. So yeah, there should perhaps have been cameras for that.
And it would have caught this episode as a happy accident.

The advantage of fighting Arc-Swat in your home base is obvious.
That gives you terrain advantage. The ability to trap places. Or place cameras everywhere for an intelligence advantage.

But on second though. That they are not holding Zephan in more than a concrete bunker does reinforce the idea i think,
that all of this is expendable. Just the raid itself is exceptionally risky. There is a million ways it could have failed in getting away cleanly.
From either Dabbler doing some weird tracing. Or from an unexpected super power. best counter to that would just be to account for losing the raid base.

----------


## Radar

> But on second though. That they are not holding Zephan in more than a concrete bunker does reinforce the idea i think,
> that all of this is expendable. Just the raid itself is exceptionally risky. There is a million ways it could have failed in getting away cleanly.
> From either Dabbler doing some weird tracing. Or from an unexpected super power. best counter to that would just be to account for losing the raid base.


Interestingly, this is also on Evil Overlord's List as the 10. entry: _I will not interrogate my enemies in the inner sanctum  a small hotel well outside my borders will work just as well._

----------


## Shining Wrath

The wheels within wheels plotting would be to raid Archon, take something valuable and a hostage to an expendable base, wait for the massive counter-strike, and then hit Archon HQ again while everyone is smashing the expendable base, and get the thing you really want (e.g., Dabbler's lab).

----------


## Dragonus45

Sometimes he gets a bit lost in the minutia but I do appreciate scenes like this where they fill in the little details of things like rules of engagement.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Sometimes he gets a bit lost in the minutia but I do appreciate scenes like this where they fill in the little details of things like rules of engagement.


And the priorities for the team: don't let the building be blown to smithereens, rescue the hostages, seal off egress points. Then kill or capture all the Ascenders.

I guess it make sense that in a world with Supers, some rich folk would say "I want that! I should be able to buy super powers, because my wealth proves ipso facto that I'm a superior person! GIMME! GIMME! GIMME!". Demand for a product tends to create supply (somewhere, J.B. Say weeps).

----------


## lord_khaine

I am in turn kinda disappointed, that they were after all dumb enough to take their prize and hide it in one of their bases.

----------


## Keltest

> I am in turn kinda disappointed, that they were after all dumb enough to take their prize and hide it in one of their bases.


As opposed to hiding it out in the middle of some random town somewhere? Acting as a secure location is literally the point of a base.

----------


## lord_khaine

Actually yeah. 
Point being, as Maxima is about to demonstrate. This base is not a very secure location.

----------


## Keltest

> Actually yeah. 
> Point being, as Maxima is about to demonstrate. This base is not a very secure location.


In what way?

----------


## Dragonus45

> In what way?


In the context that Maxima exists and the rest of the world has not quite caught up to the she changes the context of this bull****. The only security is obscurity and a prayer, and the rest of the world is going to learn that good opsec is an airgap even in a situation is high tension and security as this one you are better off risking a prisoner escape because you had them in a less secure location then you are leading Maxima to your house. Now, you may personally have a pretty solid Maxima counter plan with the access to the right supers or solid training and coordination for a squad of lesser powers... or you might be better off bumping that down to plan C.

----------


## tyckspoon

> In what way?


It's not armored against having a Maxima bunker-buster her way through the ceiling. Clearly a prime requirement for security that should be the first thing any secret base builder thinks about.


.. more seriously, tho, Chimeryiad was able to find and relay a -lot- of information about the base very quickly, which implies a lot of issues with operational security and communications control inside the base. Likely because most of the base is 'guarded' or operated by Ted duplicates that are individually both really dumb and conditioned to obey orders from anybody wearing the mask and cowl outfit - Chimeryiad can probably get into pretty much anywhere by confidently ordering the local Ted to open a door for them.

----------


## Keltest

> It's not armored against having a Maxima bunker-buster her way through the ceiling. Clearly a prime requirement for security that should be the first thing any secret base builder thinks about.
> 
> 
> .. more seriously, tho, Chimeryiad was able to find and relay a -lot- of information about the base very quickly, which implies a lot of issues with operational security and communications control inside the base. Likely because most of the base is 'guarded' or operated by Ted duplicates that are individually both really dumb and conditioned to obey orders from anybody wearing the mask and cowl outfit - Chimeryiad can probably get into pretty much anywhere by confidently ordering the local Ted to open a door for them.


Eh, its hard to say. Most bases arent designed against their own operatives having access, and Chimeryiad presumably also has any access cards that the guy had on him. Password locks are going to be the hardest thing to defeat here, but given the secret nature of the base its uncertain how much sophisticated hardware they were able to bring in, since they apparently dont even have a camera inside the interrogation cell.

----------


## Kantaki

> It's not armored against having a Maxima bunker-buster her way through the ceiling. Clearly a prime requirement for security that should be the first thing any secret base builder thinks about.


To be fair, very few things are Maxima proof.
Maybe they should've build their secret lair under a 24/7 daycare and bunny hospital.
Still no better than tissue paper, but seriously bad PR for Archon to attack. :Small Amused:

----------


## Traab

I mean, they have several features that could count as "anti maxima" Primarily the human shields and the self destruct. They wont stop maxima per say, but they will keep her from going too crazy because there are innocent people here and its a large complex that could be blown at any moment. Plus apparently MANY escape tunnels that probably each lead to fast and inconspicuous means of egress. From the state. The general goal isnt to stop superman, its to slow him down long enough to escape or at least destroy evidence. No security is absolute, and every operation you take part in has to balance risk versus reward with every decision. They clearly feel they can extract the info they need from the good shen wu sorcerer and then make use of it, before they can be uncovered. For all we know, this is a huge organization that has multiple cells of supers under its control and multiple bases so if this one is lost, no big deal. They are clearly prepared to destroy it rather than let it be taken. 

Also, recall that the only reason they are in any danger right now is because of an INVISIBLE SHAPE SHIFTING CREATURE who by sheer chance happened to be in the right spot at the right moment to switch places with our more vulnerable fellow and did so. To avoid that is a level of paranoia planning I think batman would excuse not considering.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Yeah, I think this base with the human test subject hostages and the multiple escape tunnels is the most Maxima-resilient base possible without being designed from the ground up with that purpose in mind, and I don't think anyone except maybe Deus has had the time or resources to do that yet. 

And even he hasn't tried anything like Maxima-proofing his fortress. I almost think that half the reason he's obsessed with seducing Maxima is just because there's no better way to negate her presence in the field than through emotional manipulation, which might work fine until it suddenly stops working.

----------


## lord_khaine

> The only security is obscurity and a prayer, and the rest of the world is going to learn that good opsec is an airgap even in a situation is high tension and security as this one you are better off risking a prisoner escape because you had them in a less secure location then you are leading Maxima to your house


Yeah basically what i would have said, just better phrased.
Where i then would add, in general when your a criminal organization, the only security is obscurity. 
At least when your base is in freaking Texas  :Small Big Grin: 




> To be fair, very few things are Maxima proof.


Issue is, its not even US army proof, only resistant. 




> Also, recall that the only reason they are in any danger right now is because of an INVISIBLE SHAPE SHIFTING CREATURE who by sheer chance happened to be in the right spot at the right moment to switch places with our more vulnerable fellow and did so. To avoid that is a level of paranoia planning I think batman would excuse not considering.


Actually its a visible shapeshifting woman. Chimeryiad has been refered to as her. And cant turn invisible. 
And the critique of these goons competence is more that just 1 single thing needed to go wrong. 
In this case it was grabbing a visible shapechanger instead of middle aged nerd. 

But it could have been a myriad of other things to go wrong. 
Like Dabbler secretly bonking Zen and having an empathic link towards her favorite squeaky toy. 
To someone placing a tracking beacon on a cloak. To an invisible person (X) sneaking along. 
To even just Max or Halo getting back early and deciding "huh i wonder where these helicoptors are going"

At the same time. If they have 20 of these hidden bases. And mostly made them with a geokineticist.
Then i withdraw the critique. This location is still expendable on the scope they are operating on.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Yeah basically what i would have said, just better phrased.
> Where i then would add, in general when your a criminal organization, the only security is obscurity. 
> At least when your base is in freaking Texas 
> 
> 
> 
> Issue is, its not even US army proof, only resistant. 
> 
> 
> ...


We know that the Ascenders have wealthy patrons and therefore could have many bases. How "disposable" is this one?
Now if there are rich non-supers present, that's a major screw up. They showed up and tried to kill Archon members, this response should not surprise them.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well it can be i think to small scale.
Initially a 10 floor underground base looks like a major facility though.
At the very least, there being captured supers there means there is stuff to lose.
Supers isnt directly cheap or common. 

The ship they had concretia on i think is close to the ideal solution.

----------


## Rydiro

> Also, recall that the only reason they are in any danger right now is because of an INVISIBLE SHAPE SHIFTING CREATURE who by sheer chance happened to be in the right spot at the right moment to switch places with our more vulnerable fellow and did so. To avoid that is a level of paranoia planning I think batman would excuse not considering.


Nitpick: They were actually two persons: X and Chimyriad.
X is invisible, Chimyriad the shape-shifter.

X was just invisible all the time.

----------


## Keltest

> We know that the Ascenders have wealthy patrons and therefore could have many bases. How "disposable" is this one?
> Now if there are rich non-supers present, that's a major screw up. They showed up and tried to kill Archon members, this response should not surprise them.


Not realizing that people might take a murder/kidnapping seriously enough to retaliate is exactly the kind of poor judgement people with enough money to pay for this stuff out of pocket would have.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Not realizing that people might take a murder/kidnapping seriously enough to retaliate is exactly the kind of poor judgement people with enough money to pay for this stuff out of pocket would have.


You mean that people who are accustomed to buying their way out of legal trouble don't realize that their lawyers can't take Maxima's punch for them?

----------


## Radar

> You mean that people who are accustomed to buying their way out of legal trouble don't realize that their lawyers can't take Maxima's punch for them?


Yeah, reminds me of Lethal Weapon 2 and how diplomatic immunity was not quite as an airtight defense either.

----------


## Dragonus45

Ohhhh, interesting new use of everyone's powers. Makes me feel even worse for whatever minion designed the place, on top of a perfectly placed shapeshifter having literally the exact one in a million shot to swap himself in for the target they brought into the base, now there are two different heroes flexing their powers in new ways just to infiltrate. 

Side note, that alt text was uncomfortable in a deeply relatable way.

----------


## Traab

Ok ok yeah, i confused the two agents, but the point still stands. That wasnt even a plan the heroes came up with, it was just pure happenstance that everything played out the way it did with a couple of agents the bad guys would probably have no way of knowing about (as I dont think arc dark is exactly public) meaning, it was just the worst freaking luck possible that the plan hasnt worked just fine with a tortured wizard giving up the info they are after so they can evacuate with everything they need and carry out whatever the plan was. Compounded by them not even knowing they did mess up yet. Like, if they had lost one of their nondisposable men making their escape, they would have never gone back to base. But as far as they know, they got away clean. No reason not to return to base as id assume they took precautions specifically to deal with the standard and magical methods of tracking as they knew who they were going after.

----------


## lord_khaine

And all the counterpoints made to this also stands.
Mainly that any number of things could have gone wrong. One did.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Ok ok yeah, i confused the two agents, but the point still stands. That wasnt even a plan the heroes came up with, it was just pure happenstance that everything played out the way it did with a couple of agents the bad guys would probably have no way of knowing about (as I dont think arc dark is exactly public) meaning, it was just the worst freaking luck possible that the plan hasnt worked just fine with a tortured wizard giving up the info they are after so they can evacuate with everything they need and carry out whatever the plan was. Compounded by them not even knowing they did mess up yet. Like, if they had lost one of their nondisposable men making their escape, they would have never gone back to base. But as far as they know, they got away clean. No reason not to return to base as id assume they took precautions specifically to deal with the standard and magical methods of tracking as they knew who they were going after.


So planning around unknowns is as important as it is difficult. Given that the _possibility_ that they could be tracked back to their base by any number of means it would certainly be wise to add an extra layer of cutaway between anything important and the guy they just kidnapped. For all we know they may even have done so. A lot of this discussion is predicated on this underground base being an important location. It could be it's just one more layer of hopefully sufficient separation. Honestly it could also just be a larger scale strategic decision they have made that says this specific goal is so important that any risk, up to and including Maxima, is worth the reward of making sure the target has no chance to escape. 

And sure, they just got silver bulleted for certain in how they got found out here, but the opsec specifically around the interrogation is itself a massive weakpoint here. It should not have been so easy to go for this swap. Two men in the room at all times minimum, a mirror could be spooky because there are so many stories about those things being used as portals and the target _is_ a wizard or magician of some sort which generally means utility and a good genre savy evil base designer should consider such things. But a window into the room could work just as well to have someone able to confirm the safety of the agents inside. Alongside a deadman's switch of some variety. Bonus points if you work one into the process without letting the person confirming it know they are doing it so that if mind control is used it's harder for a potential escapee to cover it up. Heck, you could have multiple in the room observers with different, potentially mutually exclusive sets of orders wrapped in lies, that they do not know are meant to be some strange double blind bs, for what to do in an emergency to make efficient mind control even harder. We are seeing right now a great example of how experienced and capable supers can bend the nature of their powers in ways that can be impossible to predict and the interrogation room setup is a great example to show to trainees of how to do everything wrong from the bottom all the way up.

----------


## lord_khaine

I would not even call it silver bulleted. Since yeah as previously mentioned so many other things could have gone wrong.
Like Maxima or Hiro tracking the escape vehicles from the sky. To X sneaking along. Or someone on the team being able to trace Zhen.

Even the interrogation security is horrible. Since this is a know wizard.
And their security consists of tying him to a chair and punching him?

----------


## Shining Wrath

An important point is that supers keep trying new stuff and new ways to use their powers. Halo is the most obvious example, she literally levels up. But I doubt what Jigawatt is doing right now is the first time any super has ever said "I wonder if I can?" and then "Cool, that worked". Which means assuming you know what Archon is capable of doing is a bad bet. And conversely, for Archon to think they've seen the Ascender's A-team is a bad bet - but Maxima's not making it. Arcswat's team has the authority to use lethal force and assume whoever they meet is dangerous. Score one for the person with combat experience against other supers.

If you don't know who you're going to capture and interrogate, having a window into the interrogation room might not be smart. For example, Harem could simply leave the room via a window, even if restrained. Worse, Harem could create a new copy as she does so, and while the new Harem is outside the room killing the armed guards from behind, the original is in the chair, begging for mercy quite loudly. And then the copy opens the door from the outside and shoots the interrogators. With enough guards and gadgets you could probably defend against most things you've heard of - but refer to paragraph #1, it's the things you haven't heard of yet that will kill you.

The Ascenders are making some mistakes, but they aren't idiots. 

Waiting until a lot of ArcSwat is in the building and then flooding it with sleep gas is on the table so far as I can tell.

EDIT: the copies of Harem are clothed. It seems that the copy retains possessions when she un-copies them. So couldn't Harem walk into a place unarmed and then summon a copy carrying full combat gear - and then un-copy the unarmed one?

----------


## Keltest

> An important point is that supers keep trying new stuff and new ways to use their powers. Halo is the most obvious example, she literally levels up. But I doubt what Jigawatt is doing right now is the first time any super has ever said "I wonder if I can?" and then "Cool, that worked". Which means assuming you know what Archon is capable of doing is a bad bet. And conversely, for Archon to think they've seen the Ascender's A-team is a bad bet - but Maxima's not making it. Arcswat's team has the authority to use lethal force and assume whoever they meet is dangerous. Score one for the person with combat experience against other supers.
> 
> If you don't know who you're going to capture and interrogate, having a window into the interrogation room might not be smart. For example, Harem could simply leave the room via a window, even if restrained. Worse, Harem could create a new copy as she does so, and while the new Harem is outside the room killing the armed guards from behind, the original is in the chair, begging for mercy quite loudly. And then the copy opens the door from the outside and shoots the interrogators. With enough guards and gadgets you could probably defend against most things you've heard of - but refer to paragraph #1, it's the things you haven't heard of yet that will kill you.
> 
> The Ascenders are making some mistakes, but they aren't idiots. 
> 
> Waiting until a lot of ArcSwat is in the building and then flooding it with sleep gas is on the table so far as I can tell.
> 
> EDIT: the copies of Harem are clothed. It seems that the copy retains possessions when she un-copies them. So couldn't Harem walk into a place unarmed and then summon a copy carrying full combat gear - and then un-copy the unarmed one?


Harem has a weight limit when she relocates stuff like that. Some of the heavy duty combat equipment is already above that weight limit.

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

As of the time of the first super brawl, Harem could "hump a Barrett" when taking stuff from the armory. She'll likely have a little more capacity by now, but not enough for much of an arsenal, at least not without unteleporting the rest of her.

----------


## Traab

> So planning around unknowns is as important as it is difficult. Given that the _possibility_ that they could be tracked back to their base by any number of means it would certainly be wise to add an extra layer of cutaway between anything important and the guy they just kidnapped. For all we know they may even have done so. A lot of this discussion is predicated on this underground base being an important location. It could be it's just one more layer of hopefully sufficient separation. Honestly it could also just be a larger scale strategic decision they have made that says this specific goal is so important that any risk, up to and including Maxima, is worth the reward of making sure the target has no chance to escape. 
> 
> And sure, they just got silver bulleted for certain in how they got found out here, but the opsec specifically around the interrogation is itself a massive weakpoint here. It should not have been so easy to go for this swap. Two men in the room at all times minimum, a mirror could be spooky because there are so many stories about those things being used as portals and the target _is_ a wizard or magician of some sort which generally means utility and a good genre savy evil base designer should consider such things. But a window into the room could work just as well to have someone able to confirm the safety of the agents inside. Alongside a deadman's switch of some variety. Bonus points if you work one into the process without letting the person confirming it know they are doing it so that if mind control is used it's harder for a potential escapee to cover it up. Heck, you could have multiple in the room observers with different, potentially mutually exclusive sets of orders wrapped in lies, that they do not know are meant to be some strange double blind bs, for what to do in an emergency to make efficient mind control even harder. We are seeing right now a great example of how experienced and capable supers can bend the nature of their powers in ways that can be impossible to predict and the interrogation room setup is a great example to show to trainees of how to do everything wrong from the bottom all the way up.


The problem is that by this argument EVERYTHING is basically an unknown. They have no way of knowing the exact limits of everyones skills, the exact list of ways each power can be applied, and the list of potential combos of powers such as what we are seeing here with jigg teleporting inside so she can show an image to harem so SHE can port inside as well. Basically, the list of unknowns is infinite and thus impossible to accurately plan for. The most they can do is work with the info they have. As an example, they probably know the general powers of everyone, including their kidnapping victim. So they probably have ways to block general mystical tracking abilities, and tech based tracking as well. 

I agree the interrogation scene was shoddy, and here we run into a problem of narrative versus logic. In a logical setup, our shapeshifter would have been identified and stopped in mid breakout because we can list a number of ways to improve security. But if security is really as good as is possible to make it, the story cant happen, because they just atomized everything in the room as soon as the shapeshifter revealed himself or whatever. Same for every other issue. Yes there is so much that could have been done. But do too much and the story cant happen. Seriously, how many movies have had a prison escape because the one guard is lured into the cell and taken down? I cant even count how often it happens. Playing sick, faking a fight, seduction effort, pretending you already escaped so they check the what looks like an empty cell. So many times this stuff gets done. It could have been done better I admit. It would have been ideal if the escape only happened because, despite clear and effective security methods, they didnt account for trying to hold freaking Odo from deep space nine prisoner. But then, this entire setup has been a really strange mix of highly professional and circus.

----------


## Dragonus45

> The problem is that by this argument EVERYTHING is basically an unknown. They have no way of knowing the exact limits of everyones skills, the exact list of ways each power can be applied, and the list of potential combos of powers such as what we are seeing here with jigg teleporting inside so she can show an image to harem so SHE can port inside as well. Basically, the list of unknowns is infinite and thus impossible to accurately plan for. The most they can do is work with the info they have. As an example, they probably know the general powers of everyone, including their kidnapping victim. So they probably have ways to block general mystical tracking abilities, and tech based tracking as well.


They had to have reasonable intelligence on what the various members of Arc are capable of to pull of what they have so far, and that's more then enough baseline for reasonable planning. But in a setting like this yes, you kind of do have to always be thinking about potential what ifs to an almost infinite degree and then like I said you have to start weighing the pros and cons of security versus efficiency. 




> I agree the interrogation scene was shoddy, and here we run into a problem of narrative versus logic. In a logical setup, our shapeshifter would have been identified and stopped in mid breakout because we can list a number of ways to improve security. But if security is really as good as is possible to make it, the story cant happen, because they just atomized everything in the room as soon as the shapeshifter revealed himself or whatever. Same for every other issue. Yes there is so much that could have been done. But do too much and the story cant happen. Seriously, how many movies have had a prison escape because the one guard is lured into the cell and taken down? I cant even count how often it happens. Playing sick, faking a fight, seduction effort, pretending you already escaped so they check the what looks like an empty cell. So many times this stuff gets done. It could have been done better I admit. It would have been ideal if the escape only happened because, despite clear and effective security methods, they didnt account for trying to hold freaking Odo from deep space nine prisoner. But then, this entire setup has been a really strange mix of highly professional and circus.


Yea, it's a hard balance to walk to have someone escape the interrogation room or the death trap in a way that feels narratively satisfying, and to his credit I think Dave absolutely could come up with something that would have made for a longer and more tense scene. I just think Dave decided not to bother for pacing reasons.

----------


## Radar

> Yea, it's a hard balance to walk to have someone escape the interrogation room or the death trap in a way that feels narratively satisfying, and to his credit I think Dave absolutely could come up with something that would have made for a longer and more tense scene. I just think Dave decided not to bother for pacing reasons.


I agree. And honestly, the way tables were turned was really good on its own - solid way to use shapeshifting abilities. Logically, there should have been some surveillance on the interrogation room, but other than that the scene works narratively.

----------


## Dragonus45

> I agree. And honestly, the way tables were turned was really good on its own - solid way to use shapeshifting abilities. Logically, there should have been some surveillance on the interrogation room, but other than that the scene works narratively.


My issue with it narratively is that Dave very much picks and chooses when he wants to go into detail and introduce some reality into scenes. It stands out to me because we have this cool scene of Maxima talking over rules of engagement and going over intelligence one moment and then a moment like the interrogation scene the next and sometimes that just pulls me out.

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah and i guess just as much that these guys are supposedly meant to be some kind of competent.
Since well they did pull off a moderately successful raid on Archon HQ. 
Even if its arguable how smart that was to do. 

I am curious about what payoff was meant to compensate for a permanent state of war with Archon.
You should not start that if you cant win it.

Welp. Going for a quickdraw taser is likely the smartest action if you dont think anyone is in yelling distance.

----------


## Traab

> Yeah and i guess just as much that these guys are supposedly meant to be some kind of competent.
> Since well they did pull off a moderately successful raid on Archon HQ. 
> Even if its arguable how smart that was to do. 
> 
> I am curious about what payoff was meant to compensate for a permanent state of war with Archon.
> You should not start that if you cant win it.
> 
> Welp. Going for a quickdraw taser is likely the smartest action if you dont think anyone is in yelling distance.


Agreed the maintenance man honestly made the right call. Though personally, id be doing both "ALARM!!!" /ZAAAAAP! The payoff is, I assume, this You pressgang an army of cherry picked super powered people, probably starting with those not a part of any group already, and that will net your group a LOT of potential power. All it really takes is the big boss being some person with a brainwashing power or something and the world is going to be in a lot of trouble. That doesnt even take into account using the info of super groups world wide to know how best to counter them at need.

----------


## Shining Wrath

That Harem has a max total carrying capacity isn't surprising, but couldn't Varia or Jiggawatt have carried more gear for her to don once inside? There are people with guns who shoot actual real bullets in there. Plus a sidearm or two might be handy.

----------


## Lapak

> Agreed the maintenance man honestly made the right call. Though personally, id be doing both "ALARM!!!" /ZAAAAAP! The payoff is, I assume, this You pressgang an army of cherry picked super powered people, probably starting with those not a part of any group already, and that will net your group a LOT of potential power. All it really takes is the big boss being some person with a brainwashing power or something and the world is going to be in a lot of trouble. That doesnt even take into account using the info of super groups world wide to know how best to counter them at need.


If the boss had a brainwashing power, they would presumably have used it to short-circuit the interrogation process and unlock the drive.

It is worth noting that, had their plan not gone wrong in a very specific way, they would have been free and clear. And it's not even a way that we, the outside readers, could have anticipated more than a page or two in advance, as I don't remember being introduced to a shapeshifter as part of the team prior to this invasion. As far as they knew, they had gotten what they came for and then gotten clean away.

----------


## lord_khaine

> It is worth noting that, had their plan not gone wrong in a very specific way, they would have been free and clear. And it's not even a way that we, the outside readers, could have anticipated more than a page or two in advance, as I don't remember being introduced to a shapeshifter as part of the team prior to this invasion. As far as they knew, they had gotten what they came for and then gotten clean away.


But the counter point remains the same. The plan had several points that could go wrong.
And just one of them had to go wrong for an Archon strike force to knock on their back door.

----------


## Dragonus45

Literally every plan ever has places where it could go wrong. This plan got blindsided by an unknown factor no one even knew they needed to plan around and but for a freak chance of positioning would have gone off without a hitch. Yes, good planning would be to assume they could be traced by an unknown means and take some basic precautions to be safe but we don't even really know how important this base is to them or what the stakes are that may make it worthwhile to take the risk anyways.

----------


## lord_khaine

Eh. I do feel i need to point out. I would not be half this critical had they made a hit on basically any other target.

Had they snatched Zephan on his way from from visiting his secret mistress.
And stolen the drive from the president i would have given them a pass on mission security.

But they did hit the biggest concentration of unknown super powers.
And they didnt even put "Zephan" in a orichalchum cage inside a farday cage.

----------


## Dragonus45

Yes they did hit a dangerous target with a lot of potential unkowns, and but for a freak accident they would have nailed their primary target and been away totally clean. I think the security around the interrogation is atrocious but outside of that I just don't see what there is to be critical of.

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

Plus it's not like they hit the Archon HQ just randomly and haphazardly. They hit the Archon HQ when a massive event was taking place half a world away that Archon would certainly be responding to (or that they knew it was responding to), they hit it at night when security was the weakest, they hit it from multiple directions and hit hard, not shying away from lethal force, and they had a fairly solid plan of action that - for a few unknown factors and luck - would have resulted in far greater damage to Archon.

If they were completely competent villains and didn't deliver 'Zephan' to a base of theirs, they'd never get caught. It's the anthropic principle. They need to make a mistake for the story to have a raid on their base, and unless you'd prefer the author to delay that mistake for a couple months while they build up credibility, now is as good a time as ever.

----------


## Shining Wrath

I think the basic point is Sun Tzu: you need to know both your enemy, and yourself. But Archon cannot be completely known - that's the nature of supers. And they don't know themselves well enough to recognize the limitations of Goon Squad.

----------


## Traab

> If the boss had a brainwashing power, they would presumably have used it to short-circuit the interrogation process and unlock the drive.
> 
> It is worth noting that, had their plan not gone wrong in a very specific way, they would have been free and clear. And it's not even a way that we, the outside readers, could have anticipated more than a page or two in advance, as I don't remember being introduced to a shapeshifter as part of the team prior to this invasion. As far as they knew, they had gotten what they came for and then gotten clean away.


Assuming the boss is willing to risk himself on this part of the plan. For all we know, they are expecting archon to find them eventually. This base falls under acceptable losses and has enough defense in depth that its reasonable to think it could remain hidden and then hold off an attack by arcswat long enough to accomplish their goal. If these guys get ganked, big deal, they have the list of all the supers known on earth and where to find them to replenish their ranks. Meanwhile archon gets little of value for stopping this cell of the organization. For all we know, the one guy who got bitten then imitated is the only super actually present on base, the rest are the disposable dumb goons. So for a loss of a base and one asset, they get the world. 

This is the problem here, we are making assumptions with no real evidence as to whats going on here. Worst case scenario this is actually their main base, they really are that dumb, and its all about to fall apart on them. Best case scenario, this is all according to plan. Mister telekinetic is the only super actually present and he may have a few escape options available. They know they cant be certain zephan wont be followed, so they did their best to obscure the trail, brought him to a base that had enough defenses to slow down an assault, and if it falls and the goon is captured, no big deal, its just a single soldier and a disposable location lost. The real threat remains hidden. Possibly with the info on the hard drive. More likely it falls somewhere in between.

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## lord_khaine

I newer thought this was the main base. The the spot they picked Concretia off from we can see they have split stuff up in cells. 
And fair if this is an international organization thats actually larger than Archon. Then possibly this is their equivalent of keeping Zephan 
in a abandoned motel outside of town. 

Initially it looked like a major investment due to this place having other super captives. Those are valuable in the extreme.
But if they are also hot goods, then its more reasonable.

Certainly we have not seen any of their actually valuable personal.
So far its just a pair of unpowered middle managers. Extremely expendable idiot goons.
And a technician with a taser.

----------


## Traab

> I newer thought this was the main base. The the spot they picked Concretia off from we can see they have split stuff up in cells. 
> And fair if this is an international organization thats actually larger than Archon. Then possibly this is their equivalent of keeping Zephan 
> in a abandoned motel outside of town. 
> 
> Initially it looked like a major investment due to this place having other super captives. Those are valuable in the extreme.
> But if they are also hot goods, then its more reasonable.
> 
> Certainly we have not seen any of their actually valuable personal.
> So far its just a pair of unpowered middle managers. Extremely expendable idiot goons.
> And a technician with a taser.


Honestly, its a coin toss for me. This very well COULD be the main freaking base and they really ARE that stupid. As I said, this entire op has been a strange mix of highly professional and thirty pratfalling clowns in a single car. I think dave has a hard time balancing the need for these guys to actually be dangerous and competent, but not so good they cant be justifiably found. Like has been covered before, narratively, we know they have to mess up somehow and not be perfect for the good guys to have their shot at victory. Thats how everything goes in media. The joker leaves behind a bit of special cement dust from the bottom of his shoe only being used on aquatic construction, therefore his new hideout is on the docks. That sort of thing. The problem is making it too easy makes the bad guys look stupid. And that tends to have a cascade effect where every mistake made progressively turns the bad guys from blofelds goons, to dr evils goons in the judgement of the reader.

----------


## lord_khaine

It seems obvious this isnt -the- major base. 
Since if nothing else Sydney isnt anywhere close.

----------


## Shining Wrath

In keeping with the thread title, it looks like we're going to get at least a dozen comics focused on "bypassing security cameras".

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Well... cameras seem to be the only form of security the bad guys have at this point, so I guess we have to take it seriously!  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## tyckspoon

> Well... cameras seem to be the only form of security the bad guys have at this point, so I guess we have to take it seriously!


Oh, come on, there's also Ted, Ted, Ted, Ted, Ted, and Ted! 'tho it's already been demonstrated that the Goon Squad clones have their intelligence/ability to focus split so many ways right now that they're functionally useless, so I suppose they can be discounted. Wonder if the base has one of them tasked to monitoring the camera feeds or if we'll find out they have some more sensible way to flag things that might need further attention.. cameras are nice and all, but they don't do you a damn bit of good if nobody is paying enough attention to notice when they capture something suspicious!

Just another one of those things where Dave has to try to thread the needle between making the Ascenders competent and with enough resources to be worth fighting, but not so competent that Arc-SWAT can't pull off this raid - a fully comprehensive security/surveillance setup would have already caught them with what they've done down in the maintenance area. Maybe it -did- and somewhere else in the base somebody is trying to organize a combat force or getting the critical information/resources evacuated while Archon is still trying to do things the slow and supposedly secret way. Would make a good reason to cut through the rest of the sequence here and move on to the big super brawl.

.. but that's just overthinking things because that's what the Internet Does. It's probably sufficient to just acknowledge that the base has some additional security measures and that heroes recognize this and will be taking steps to deal with it, from a plotting perspective.

----------


## Shining Wrath

I'd have, e.g., thermal detectors that kept a count of the number of human-sized heat sources in the building. And match those with RFID badges. That's doable with modern tech, no magic or aliens or supers needed.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

Is that frickin' For Whom The Death Tolls in the middle?

----------


## tyckspoon

> Is that frickin' For Whom The Death Tolls in the middle?


It's PBS's Imperious Cowl, at least. No reason to suspect it isn't the character as well, but there is the possibility it's a deliberate fakeout/reference to try to get people to assume the wearer is Mr Bad At Names and responding to an incorrect assumption about what his power is.

----------


## lord_khaine

Eh.. Bells are possibly not the smartest person to mimic, as Archon already learned the primary defence against him is just to ignore him.
Seeing as his power is only defensive in nature.

So more likely it is actually him. 
And in hindsight there is a vague connection in that all of these losers also wear capes. Just as he does.

----------


## Kantaki

Those outfits look incredibly dumb.
Especially the suit. That one is just all over the place.

Generic cultist robe, business attire and that fake fur over the shoulders.
Dude looks like he changed in a hurry after coming in from his day job. And the fluff looks like a left over from last halloween's barbarian king costume.
Couldn't one of his buddies tell him to stick with one style?
The company doesn't help either. 

I mean at least Bell has the excuse of his outfit being established. Brand is important for (wannabe) villains.
Also, his costume does keep to its theme.
Still looks silly, but that's partially because who's wearing it.

So I guess the biggest problems are the boss man needs to finish changing and the bell guy needs to leave. :Small Big Grin: 

Lady Cultist just looks dumb by association I guess.
Otherwise she could work as a generic cultist/caster/cheap dark jedi cosplay.

----------


## lord_khaine

Hmm.. yeah leaders outfit likely would work better without the fur.
Else i think it would actually be fairly badass. 

Bells has changed slightly. But kept his cowl and cloak. At a glance it seems like all the actual supers have custom cloaks.
The telekinetics were also slightly different. Where i also think calling Death Tolls silly makes light of the fact, 
that he did beat up more heroes than anyone but Vehemence. And possibly only Sydney stopped him from beating Archon. 

He is unusually powerful, but needs to be teamed up with someone that has a more offensive power.
His is basically an aggressive shield.

----------


## TeChameleon

There is one other reason that Death Dingaling could be there, hinted at by the (presumptive) leader- the kidnapped people were having powers-related experimentation done on them.  He may be looking for a way to make his power more offensively useful, or similar.

And yeah, the faux fur is fairly doofy looking... and there's something a little odd about how Dave draws hoods.  I'm not sure I could entirely put my finger on it, but at best guess it's because they're weirdly smooth, with no folding or wrinkles.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

The fur works for me, but the tux/dress shirt needs to go. Not playing nicely as a part of FWTDT's aesthetic either.

----------


## Shining Wrath

Aesthetically, I'd say the woman in the back looks most dangerous. I do not like the Cyclopian gaze, and you don't just walk up to a bunch of supers without better backup than Tolls.

----------


## lord_khaine

Eh, Death Tolls is just about the best anti-super bodyguard you can get to work as a minion. 
Since actually more effective ones like Max or Vehemence are unlikely to want such a passive role.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> Eh, Death Tolls is just about the best anti-super bodyguard you can get to work as a minion. 
> Since actually more effective ones like Max or Vehemence are unlikely to want such a passive role.


Death Toll's powers are entirely defensive; he only matters if he is attacked. If Harem ignores Death Tolls entirely and just punches Fur Cloak in his (presumed non-super) face, Fur Cloak will gain no protection at all from DT. And Harem can punch hard enough that a non-Super does not want to experience that. Think of DT as Achilles; if he can get in between you and danger that's great, but anyone quick enough to go around, or strong enough to pick him up and move him aside, can ignore him.

Imagine if Math were there. Would DT even know Math was going around him? For that matter, would Math kicking DT in the face trigger DT's anti-super power?

----------


## lord_khaine

If Harem decided to ignore the bodyguard and go for fur cloak, then its not like much less than Max would be enough to prevent it, seeing as Harem can teleport past obstacles. 
For attackers such as that, much less than super speed wont do. 

While for attackers without teleport. Death Tolls is a significant upgrade on Achilles. If Achilles jump between you and your punch target, at worst you hurt your hand.
If Death Tolls does so, you likely get wrecked. Picking him up is unlikely to be an option, we have seen him be stronger than Hiro when needing to counter that.

Even against someone like Math Death Toll is still one of the better bodyguard options. As he is someone Math literally cant afford to touch in fear of triggering Nemesis.
Its not anti-superpower. Its having the needed super power at the moment. We saw that when around 6 flashbangs went off in basically his hands, and he wasnt affected.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> If Harem decided to ignore the bodyguard and go for fur cloak, then its not like much less than Max would be enough to prevent it, seeing as Harem can teleport past obstacles. 
> For attackers such as that, much less than super speed wont do. 
> 
> While for attackers without teleport. Death Tolls is a significant upgrade on Achilles. If Achilles jump between you and your punch target, at worst you hurt your hand.
> If Death Tolls does so, you likely get wrecked. Picking him up is unlikely to be an option, we have seen him be stronger than Hiro when needing to counter that.
> 
> Even against someone like Math Death Toll is still one of the better bodyguard options. As he is someone Math literally cant afford to touch in fear of triggering Nemesis.
> Its not anti-superpower. Its having the needed super power at the moment. We saw that when around 6 flashbangs went off in basically his hands, and he wasnt affected.


I'll agree he's better for these purposes than Achilles, but Math may be able to go past him almost as easily as Harem. Also, he can only counter one power at a time (that's how Archon beat him the first time), so he's not effective against a swarm. Against a swarm Achilles might be better.

Now ... what happens if Varia touches him? Feedback loop? Does she gain the ability to out-Nemesis Nemesis?

----------


## Dragonus45

> And in hindsight there is a vague connection in that all of these losers also wear capes. Just as he does.


For all my complaints Dave does a great job at that kind of visual storytelling. 

I think FWTBT might be much more dangerous as part of a team where he can pick and chose defensive engagements on the behalf of others while also having cover for when he has to guard against two moves at once. This could get really hairy really quickly if the rest of those goons have powers.

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## lord_khaine

Math can get past most people without super speed. But most others he can at least touch as he vaults over them.
With Death Toll he has to avoid that, as the trigger for his Nemesis power is unknown.
Its basically the difference between a fence, and a high power electric fence. One you can touch. One you quickly wish you didnt touch. 

Also he is still much better off against a swarm than Achilles. You just need 1 person to disable Achilles (or mutual disabling, whatever we are talking bodyguard here).
Death Toll meanwhile has shown that he can fight and beat 2 Archon members at the same time.
It took a combination of Max, Dabbler and Goose to bring Death Toll down. Only peak Vehemence and Darude has been able to handle that so far.

But yeah Death Tolls optimal team mate is likely someone with a highly offensive power. 
And low defence.




> Now ... what happens if Varia touches him? Feedback loop? Does she gain the ability to out-Nemesis Nemesis?


Impossible to say, since Varia's power isnt always related to the power of whoever she touches.

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## Dragonus45

For the Varia question it may depend on intention since his powers may require a person to intent to cause harm and not just use a power on him.

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## Keltest

> For the Varia question it may depend on intention since his powers may require a person to intent to cause harm and not just use a power on him.


Indeed. They were able to haul him off somewhere eventually, so its not like they were completely incapable of interacting with him.

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## lord_khaine

> For the Varia question it may depend on intention since his powers may require a person to intent to cause harm and not just use a power on him.


I recall him also knocking some flying rubble away. So i dont think intent matter. 
A flash bang certainly dont have one.




> Indeed. They were able to haul him off somewhere eventually, so its not like they were completely incapable of interacting with him.


Yes after he had been knocked out by a combination attack.

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## Traab

Yeah I think his power is basically "Nuh UHHHH!" to whatever he is dealing with. Super power or not. So in reality he is a really really good bodyguard whose powers seem to react automatically. So if math takes a swing at him, he likely either becomes incredibly damage resistant so the attack is blocked entirely, or something else happens to negate the attack like, I dunno, he turns into luffy from one piece and his now rubber body launches math backwards fist first over the horizon. Also, im wishing sydney was here because you KNOW the first words out of her mouth would be, "AHH! Whats the periwinkle butt sniffer doing here?!" And Death Toll is just instantly ruined rep wise with his new gang.

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## lord_khaine

Eh.. i am uncertain how Sydney slinging infantile insults would hurt Death Tolls standing.
When its Sydney who reveals she has the mental maturity of a school child.

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## Pax1138

I'm just hoping Archon has thoughts about Tolls since they last saw him, and have a plan for summarily dealing with him beyond dogpile and overwhelm.

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## lord_khaine

Well alas there is only 2 options, when his power is basically "Nuhh uuhh!" as Traab so poetically described it.
Either ignore him or overwhelm him. I cant really see any other options.

But also basically called it on the bodyguard thing :D
Is seriously embarrassing for Jiggawat not to recognise the skull mask and the red cloak.

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## Shining Wrath

Yeah, major fail for Jiggawatt not recognizing someone who is known to be quite dangerous. Unsure what happens now - how long can he hold her?
Minor fail for ArcSwat not including "How to deal with FWTDT" in training.
Since Halo is probably the most famous super in the world (along with Max), being dissed by her, however crudely, costs any other super cred in the super crowd.

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## Sean Mirrsen

> Yeah, major fail for Jiggawatt not recognizing someone who is known to be quite dangerous. Unsure what happens now - how long can he hold her?


A different question is: can he actually hold her for any length of time?
Since his power is "nemesis", he technically only has one power at a time, as established. So in order to defend against some other attack, he has to let go of Jiggawatt - even if it's offensively like he did last time. Keeping Jiggawatt absorbed may count for continuously being under attack - so if he switched to a different power, Jiggawatt might fry him.

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## lord_khaine

> Since Halo is probably the most famous super in the world (along with Max), being dissed by her, however crudely, costs any other super cred in the super crowd.


Except thats not how it works?
There are countless of examples of "famous" people scoring self goals on social media, hurting their own cred. 

And Halo is just famous in the "people know who she is" not in the "people respect her" way. 
So if people think she is an obnoxious child in the body of a slightly larger child, then its hardly going Death Toll any cred.
Any more than it would if any other kindergardener called him buttface.  

Actually right now it would likely just help his case, as he has just taken an Archon member down in a couple seconds.
So slinging insults just seems even more impotent now.




> A different question is: can he actually hold her for any length of time?
> Since his power is "nemesis", he technically only has one power at a time, as established. So in order to defend against some other attack, he has to let go of Jiggawatt - even if it's offensively like he did last time. Keeping Jiggawatt absorbed may count for continuously being under attack - so if he switched to a different power, Jiggawatt might fry him.


We dont know. Notice his transformation isnt complete. This time is just his arm.
Its possibly he can hold her and react to another thing with the other arm.
But not certain.

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## Shining Wrath

> Except thats not how it works?
> There are countless of examples of "famous" people scoring self goals on social media, hurting their own cred. 
> 
> And Halo is just famous in the "people know who she is" not in the "people respect her" way. 
> So if people think she is an obnoxious child in the body of a slightly larger child, then its hardly going Death Toll any cred.
> Any more than it would if any other kindergardener called him buttface.  
> 
> Actually right now it would likely just help his case, as he has just taken an Archon member down in a couple seconds.
> So slinging insults just seems even more impotent now.
> ...


If there's a pecking order for supers, it would likely be based on power.
Halo is very powerful indeed.

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## lord_khaine

> If there's a pecking order for supers, it would likely be based on power.
> Halo is very powerful indeed.


And when it comes to a 1-1 fight Death Toll is EXTREMELY powerful.

But the real world pecking orders are based on a mix of influence and social skill. 
I cant see why the ones for supers would be different.

And certainly the Ascenders have only shown (understandable) contempt for Sydney.

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## KillianHawkeye

> But the real world pecking orders are based on a mix of influence and social skill. 
> I cant see why the ones for supers would be different.


Because IRL rankings of comic book characters always boil down to "who can beat who in a fight"?

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## Traab

> Eh.. i am uncertain how Sydney slinging infantile insults would hurt Death Tolls standing.
> When its Sydney who reveals she has the mental maturity of a school child.


Well its more because of how he would likely respond to that. I mean, I dont think ANYBODY takes his name of "For Whom The Death Tolls" seriously, but to outright mock him for it with that name, and likely trigger a very upset response from periwinkle would drag him down pretty fast. If you have to argue about if your name sucks, it means your name sucks. And once someone calls you out on it, I bet it gets a lot of agreement.

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## TeChameleon

The impression that I've gotten is that Archon- _especially_ ARC-SWAT- have a lot of cachet with... well, everyone really.  They're considered (rightly or wrongly, this is just the public perception) as the biggest and best around, globally ultra-famous and the most powerful people around- remember, a big part of this attempt was to grab as many Archon supers as they could lay hands on.  And Sydney is improbably charismatic and has a way of getting people to go along with her.

So Sydney calling Dingaling out on his crap name and semi-stupid powers would be a bit like... I don't know, there aren't any easy examples that come to mind.  A lot of the real-world comparisons would come off as more mean-spirited than this would be... maybe, eh, I dunno, J. Edgar Hoover saying that Al Capone was a moron and a loser?

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## Shining Wrath

Sydney is portrayed as having ADHD and often opening mouth before operating brain. Different people react differently to that; for example, per Word of Dave, Maxima is amused by Sydney, despite the fact that Maxima is generally uptight. I think we've seen that Deus, the smartest person alive (just ask him!), is also amused by her.

I think everyone agrees that "For Whom The Death Tolls" is a ludicrously bad name, deserving of mockery. Sydney's choice of "periwinkle butt sniffer" as a term of derision may be crude, but that's how she rolls.

More to the point, Sydney then figured out to how defeat the Nemesis power of Periwinkle Butt Sniffer. She's not just The Mighty Halo, possessor of Nth level technology; she's a very savvy tactician in battle. When you are not only powerful in your own right but a force multiplier for other people, and "other people" includes Dabbler and Maxima and the like, you are terrifying to your enemies, even if you have little control over what comes out of your mouth. Ergo, even if you think she's infantile, you'd better respect her.

Therefore, "Periwinkle Butt Sniffer" probably left a mark on FWTDT's psyche.

Changing subjects:

Does his Nemesis power even work on tech? What happens if Halo teleports FWTDT to deep space? If Peggy puts a .454 round into his right eye, does her gun explode, does the bullet bounce off - or does his head imitate a watermelon at a Gallagher show? 

Achilles is immune to pretty much everything. If FWTDT is only immune to super powers but vulnerable to Peggy's rifle or Dabbler's swords (or Halo going crazy like she did back in the bank), that might shift who you want as a bodyguard. I recall a short story (might have been AC Clark) where two masters of telekinesis were fighting over a knife - and the "younger" psion reached out and grabbed the knife with his hand and stabbed his enemy, who was so accustomed to using telekinesis that he forgot the knife could be used via a handle. Similarly, if Fur Cloak guy is so focused on super powers that he forgets that there are regular police with regular guns, he has a blind spot that can be exploited (and Halo would spot that blind spot in seconds).

EDIT:

I notice that there are significant changes to FWTDT's outfit after the electro-slurp. The left side of his costume is now golden, not blue. That may represent a 'tell' that he can handle doing this perhaps once more, and then Nemesis will be "full".

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## Radar

> I notice that there are significant changes to FWTDT's outfit after the electro-slurp. The left side of his costume is now golden, not blue. That may represent a 'tell' that he can handle doing this perhaps once more, and then Nemesis will be "full".


And when he did the same trick during the super brawl, his whole outfit changed. This unfortunately might indicate that he is able to counter more powers at the same time.

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## Forum Explorer

> Does his Nemesis power even work on tech? What happens if Halo teleports FWTDT to deep space? If Peggy puts a .454 round into his right eye, does her gun explode, does the bullet bounce off - or does his head imitate a watermelon at a Gallagher show? 
> 
> Achilles is immune to pretty much everything. If FWTDT is only immune to super powers but vulnerable to Peggy's rifle or Dabbler's swords (or Halo going crazy like she did back in the bank), that might shift who you want as a bodyguard. I recall a short story (might have been AC Clark) where two masters of telekinesis were fighting over a knife - and the "younger" psion reached out and grabbed the knife with his hand and stabbed his enemy, who was so accustomed to using telekinesis that he forgot the knife could be used via a handle. Similarly, if Fur Cloak guy is so focused on super powers that he forgets that there are regular police with regular guns, he has a blind spot that can be exploited (and Halo would spot that blind spot in seconds).
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> I notice that there are significant changes to FWTDT's outfit after the electro-slurp. The left side of his costume is now golden, not blue. That may represent a 'tell' that he can handle doing this perhaps once more, and then Nemesis will be "full".


We saw him deflect random debris from an explosion, so he likely matches whatever he is facing regardless of its source.

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## Sean Mirrsen

> We saw him deflect random debris from an explosion, so he likely matches whatever he is facing regardless of its source.


It wasn't random explosion debris, it was Concretia. :P

Though he did also tank some of Hex's squirrel-panic-lasers without any reaction whatsoever.

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## lord_khaine

> Well its more because of how he would likely respond to that. I mean, I dont think ANYBODY takes his name of "For Whom The Death Tolls" seriously, but to outright mock him for it with that name, and likely trigger a very upset response from periwinkle would drag him down pretty fast. If you have to argue about if your name sucks, it means your name sucks. And once someone calls you out on it, I bet it gets a lot of agreement.


Except she did as such not mock him. I would say actually mocking require at least a degree of intelligence. She slung kindergarden grade insults. 
That shows her maturity level. Not Death Tolls. 




> The impression that I've gotten is that Archon- especially ARC-SWAT- have a lot of cachet with... well, everyone really. They're considered (rightly or wrongly, this is just the public perception) as the biggest and best around, globally ultra-famous and the most powerful people around- remember, a big part of this attempt was to grab as many Archon supers as they could lay hands on. And Sydney is improbably charismatic and has a way of getting people to go along with her.


I dont think we have anything to support that take? That people care that much about them outside of their native land?




> I think everyone agrees that "For Whom The Death Tolls" is a ludicrously bad name, deserving of mockery. Sydney's choice of "periwinkle butt sniffer" as a term of derision may be crude, but that's how she rolls.
> 
> More to the point, Sydney then figured out to how defeat the Nemesis power of Periwinkle Butt Sniffer. She's not just The Mighty Halo, possessor of Nth level technology; she's a very savvy tactician in battle. When you are not only powerful in your own right but a force multiplier for other people, and "other people" includes Dabbler and Maxima and the like, you are terrifying to your enemies, even if you have little control over what comes out of your mouth. Ergo, even if you think she's infantile, you'd better respect her.
> 
> Therefore, "Periwinkle Butt Sniffer" probably left a mark on FWTDT's psyche.


Exceedingly crude yes. And i think you are then mixing characters that only exist in Sydnes head up with ones that exist in the comic. There isnt anyone named Periwinkle in the story. 
And eh i think savvy is stretching it. She has the advantage of a close to 100% safe force bubble to quietly observe things from. 
All the same, we have not yet seen anyone terrified of her, its the orbs that actually makes her dangerous. 

And still, we have absolutely NOTHING to support Sydneys stupid mud slinging was treated like anything but that, by the person who soloed most of Archon.




> If FWTDT is only immune to super powers


He isnt immune to super powers, he has whatever power serves him best at the moment.
As seen by him countering magic attacks and physical attacks as well as a projectile from Math.

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## Shining Wrath

Did we just see that Periwinkle is an effective close-in fighter? Jiggawatt admittedly was disoriented from being fired into a wall, but "Chud" / "Whack" look like some skill in martial arts, ignoring Nemesis.

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## lord_khaine

If you look at the link at the bottom, you can see that the characters involved are " for_whom_the_death_tolls, jiggawatt, varia"
According to the author.

Also you hardly need to be an effective close combat fighter to throw someone about ½ your size around like a rag doll.

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## Traab

> Except she did as such not mock him. I would say actually mocking require at least a degree of intelligence. She slung kindergarden grade insults. 
> That shows her maturity level. Not Death Tolls. 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think we have anything to support that take? That people care that much about them outside of their native land?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can argue the maturity level of her mockery, but she was clearly mocking him. And he was also fairly sensitive about his name. Here and here we see that he does not react well to people insulting his name choice.

As for their rep meh, they ran to be first to publicly announce themselves, and they have been in the news on a few occasions so far so id imagine they have more brand recognition than most other groups, but I agree that this doesnt translate into "Omg they are the truly leet! We should listen to them when they talk" But that wasnt why I felt that it would have done him some psychological damage here. Lets face it, any bad guy wants to be taken seriously. And once the topic of his name gets brought up, NOBODY takes him seriously. Sydney being there to start the ball rolling with something along the lines of "Oh my god! Its periwinkle butt sniffer!" would easily get things rolling because, as I showed in the two linked comics, he does not deal well with people insulting his terrible terrible name choices. 

Im not entirely sure why you are being pedantic with the whole "there is nobody by that name in the comic" when you know good and well who they were talking about. Also, yes, she has a shield bubble that gives her a degree of safety to observe, she still has to be savvy enough to put together the clues, which she did. She is intelligent, just also very hyper. And trying to downplay her by going, "Its just the orbs" is silly. You might as well say "Omg, nobody is worried about anvil, just her ability to absorb and unleash kinetic force!" And see again the two linked comics where he clearly is upset by people mocking his name.

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## Dragonus45

...wait. Teleport eye guys power is still going despite him not holding hands with Varia anymore?

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## lord_khaine

> You can argue the maturity level of her mockery, but she was clearly mocking him. And he was also fairly sensitive about his name. Here and here we see that he does not react well to people insulting his name choice.


Eh, i dont think its fairly sensitive to be annoyed at people getting your name wrong. 
Clearly there is some cultural or literate meaning to it. But i confess it escapes me as well. 
I still find it reasonable to get annoyed at people messing your name up.




> As for their rep meh, they ran to be first to publicly announce themselves, and they have been in the news on a few occasions so far so id imagine they have more brand recognition than most other groups, but I agree that this doesnt translate into "Omg they are the truly leet! We should listen to them when they talk" But that wasnt why I felt that it would have done him some psychological damage here. Lets face it, any bad guy wants to be taken seriously. And once the topic of his name gets brought up, NOBODY takes him seriously. Sydney being there to start the ball rolling with something along the lines of "Oh my god! Its periwinkle butt sniffer!" would easily get things rolling because, as I showed in the two linked comics, he does not deal well with people insulting his terrible terrible name choices.


Well its undeniable they have brand recognition. I just disagree on that being the same as respect. 
We also see that people does indeed regularly mess his name up, but it seems to more annoy him than psychologically scar him, so i find it unlikely the most immature taunt should get to him. 
And when it comes to his power, we have in turn seen everyone takes him extremely seriously.




> Im not entirely sure why you are being pedantic with the whole "there is nobody by that name in the comic" when you know good and well who they were talking about. Also, yes, she has a shield bubble that gives her a degree of safety to observe, she still has to be savvy enough to put together the clues, which she did. She is intelligent, just also very hyper. And trying to downplay her by going, "Its just the orbs" is silly. You might as well say "Omg, nobody is worried about anvil, just her ability to absorb and unleash kinetic force!" And see again the two linked comics where he clearly is upset by people mocking his name.


Because a) people are being wrong on the internet. And b) because i fundamentally disagrees with Sydneys supposed "point". Because "we have a pr department (and thats also wrong, Adria does, you dont Sydney)" is about the same as "might makes right" and thats the philosophy of a villain, not a hero. So i would oppose it no matter who makes it.




> ...wait. Teleport eye guys power is still going despite him not holding hands with Varia anymore?


Yes because its his power. It seems Varia jump-started something.

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## KillianHawkeye

V'YGR??? How does one misspell V'GER so badly?  :Small Confused: 

-10 nerd cred.

----------


## halfeye

There are two main sorts of Periwinkle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_periwinkle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinca_minor

My guess would be that Halo is referring to the snail.




> Clearly there is some cultural or literate meaning to it. But i confess it escapes me as well.


It is a very bad pun, puns are always awful, this is worse than most.

There is the death toll of a disaster, which is the lives it costs. In this sense of "toll" there are toll roads and toll bridges which the user must pay to use while travelling.

The sound of a bell being continuously and monotonously rung is called the tolling of that bell, this sort of ringing is typically used for funerals.

Thirdly there is the Sentence "Do not ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee", which I think means a death in a village makes the whole village weaker. There is also a reference to this in Tom Sawyer when he and Huckleberry Finn return after a long abscence to find their own funerals in progress.

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## Kantaki

I thought she meant the colour.

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## lord_khaine

Ah i see thanks. I knew about the bell tolling bit. We does funeral bells here as well.
But the Prasic Portmanteu sounds like something litteracy professors torment their students with.
And i could not bother looking it up.

----------


## Shining Wrath

The original poem (by John Donne).
Who is probably most famous for this poem.

"For whom the death tolls", then, would be the idea of death itself, rather than the announcement of death, diminishing mankind; but "Death be not proud" suggests that Donne would not agree. FWTDT therefore displays a superficial knowledge of poetry but no actual erudition, which is actually what you'd expect from a typical comic book super hero.

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## Traab

> I thought she meant the colour.


I was almost certain she did. But then, he doesnt seem to have any of that color on him so maybe not? She has a LOT of random knowledge so its hard to tell sometimes. Though maybe not as she has a serious interest in her scuba diving and general oceanic knowledge so she might be talking about the snail, I honestly dont know.

----------


## halfeye

> I thought she meant the colour.


Does the colour have a butt?

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## Kantaki

> Does the colour have a butt?


No, the sniffer has a colour. :Small Amused:

----------


## Shining Wrath

One who sniffs the butts of aquatic snails, i.e., a sniffer of periwinkle butts; or, a close-to-lavender person who sniffs the butts of unspecified creatures?
Which would Sydney come up with in combat to disparage FWTDT? For some reason I don't think Sydney would find a color insulting, so probably the former.

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## Kantaki

I mean, supers having a colour in their name isn't that unusual. Sydney might play off that.
Red Skull, Green Goblin, Blue Beetle, Periwinkle Butt-Sniffer... It would fit right in. :Small Big Grin: 

Plus "Periwinkle" is a pretty funny word.
She might use it for that alone.

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## halfeye

> One who sniffs the butts of aquatic snails, i.e., a sniffer of periwinkle butts; or, a close-to-lavender person who sniffs the butts of unspecified creatures?
> Which would Sydney come up with in combat to disparage FWTDT? For some reason I don't think Sydney would find a color insulting, so probably the former.


That's what I think applies.

----------


## Traab

> I mean, supers having a colour in their name isn't that unusual. Sydney might play off that.
> Red Skull, Green Goblin, Blue Beetle, Periwinkle Butt-Sniffer... It would fit right in.
> 
> Plus "Periwinkle" is a pretty funny word.
> She might use it for that alone.


Yeah but they have that color in their general look. The red skull has a red hydra symbol. *cough* The green goblin is some sort of blue/yellow hybrid, the list goes on. But I didnt see any periwinkle on our googly eyed butt sniffer. Its possible that was just the first random name that popped into her head that sounded silly to serve as her example of how little respect she has for his awe inspiring epic naming ability. I mean, for whom the death tolls, she bang, the list goes on. The dude is clearly a master of nomenclature.

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## Kantaki

> Yeah but they have that color in their general look. The red skull has a red hydra symbol. *cough* The green goblin is some sort of blue/yellow hybrid, the list goes on. But I didnt see any periwinkle on our googly eyed butt sniffer. Its possible that was just the first random name that popped into her head that sounded silly to serve as her example of how little respect she has for his awe inspiring epic naming ability. I mean, for whom the death tolls, she bang, the list goes on. The dude is clearly a master of nomenclature.


The arms of his old costume might come close*, but yeah, it's not exactly a prominent part of the outfit.

*As far as I can tell. But then I'd describe the weed the colour is named for as violet or purple, so... :Small Amused:

----------

