# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  A Hidden Gem in Candlekeep Mysteries: Gloves of Soul Catching

## ProsecutorGodot

There will be some minor spoilers for the adventure Book of Inner Alchemy in this thread to discuss a magic item added within it.



These gloves are, well, insane. As far as Legendary items go I'd consider them fairly powerful, and not exclusively even for Monks which seems to be the intended user.
*Spoiler: The Gloves*
Show

Gloves of Soul Catching
Wondrous item, legendary (requires attunement)

Your Constitution score is 20 while you wear these gloves. This property of the gloves has no effect on you if your Constitution is already 20 or higher.

After making a successful unarmed strike while wearing these gloves, you can use the gloves to deal an extra 2d10 force damage to the target, and you regain a number of hit points equal to the force damage dealt. Alternatively, instead of regaining hit points in this way, you can choose to gain advantage on one attack roll, ability check, or saving throw you make before the end of your next turn.


However, they aren't just powerful, they have a specific method of acquisition that I find incredibly interesting. I wish more magical items had details like this about them.
*Spoiler: The Acquisition Method*
Show

The Book of Inner Alchemy contains instructions for crafting magic gloves that grant the wearer the ability to siphon vitality from other creatures. The authors note, however, that this item is theoretical and has never been created.*

Crafting the gloves requires silver thread, fine leather, and other material components worth a total of 5,000 gp. To imbue the gloves with magic, a ritual must be performed, and this ritual requires three sacrifices: a being of great intellect, a being of strong body, and a being of pure heart. The ritual must take place under the light of a full moon and requires 5 hours to perform. The ritual consumes and destroys the souls of those who are sacrificed, meaning they cant be brought back from the dead**.

*It says this in the book, but the authors being 3 open hand masters who are no longer present leaves it very open to interpretation that there might be at least one set in existence.
**This makes acquiring them a problem, destroying souls is very often a bad thing even if they might be willing targets.


Is this the late game unarmed solution? Is there a way to acquire them without it being problematic? Are they incredibly overpowered and something you'll avoid like it shouldn't exist?

I'm very excited that these items exist, I want to use this adventure as a side quest in one of our campaigns. This book has so far been a much more exciting anthology to skim through than Yawning Portal or Saltmarsh.

----------


## Unoriginal

> There will be some minor spoilers for the adventure Book of Inner Alchemy in this thread to discuss a magic item added within it.
> 
> 
> 
> These gloves are, well, insane. As far as Legendary items go I'd consider them fairly powerful, and not exclusively even for Monks which seems to be the intended user.
> *Spoiler: The Gloves*
> Show
> 
> Gloves of Soul Catching
> ...


Wasn't aware the Candlekeep Mysteries were available in any way yet. Sounds like it's pretty neat.

As for the gloves, well, they seem more like something PCs have to interupt the creation of than "oh, nice powerup", given how it requires the annihilation of three persons. Definitely very flavorful and memorable, in any case. I could see them become a recuring feature in the lore. Maybe including a bunch of failed/lesser gloves made by people trying to reach the inner alchemy's summit.

----------


## mangosta71

> Wasn't aware the Candlekeep Mysteries were available in any way yet. Sounds like it's pretty neat.


Yup, Candlekeep Mysteries dropped today. Erm, yesterday, given that it's after midnight. But yeah, the book is available now.

----------


## kingcheesepants

Is it just me or does it seem like all the coolest and most powerful magic items have a decidedly evil flair to them? These gloves for sure but also the most powerful weapons are sentient weapons which give all sorts of fun bonuses (free spells and such) but most sentient weapons available in modules and official sources are evil.

----------


## ProsecutorGodot

> Is it just me or does it seem like all the coolest and most powerful magic items have a decidedly evil flair to them? These gloves for sure but also the most powerful weapons are sentient weapons which give all sorts of fun bonuses (free spells and such) but most sentient weapons available in modules and official sources are evil.


And the very few that aren't evil already have a host (Azure Edge) or are plot related story McGuffins (Sword of Zariel)

It's a recent thing I've really started to dislike (even though it was obvious for a long time) that most high level magic items really aren't designed with the idea that your PC will actually have them. In many cases, I'm confused why half of the artifacts that are available even have an item description because the circumstances around them have a big flag that says "not for you".

Artifacts are super cool, I especially like the aspect that their minor or major boons can have some (small) impact on how a player uses them, but you just so rarely have the opportunity to get one.

----------


## Nifft

> There will be some minor spoilers for the adventure Book of Inner Alchemy in this thread to discuss a magic item added within it.
> 
> 
> 
> These gloves are, well, insane. As far as Legendary items go I'd consider them fairly powerful, and not exclusively even for Monks which seems to be the intended user.
> *Spoiler: The Gloves*
> Show
> 
> Gloves of Soul Catching
> ...


Is the "use the gloves to deal ..." an action type, like does it consume your Bonus action?

Or can you do that thing multiple times per round? If so it goes from "woah" to "WOOOOOOOOAH" (including a variable but large number of exclamation points).

----------


## Zhorn

> Is the "use the gloves to deal ..." an action type, like does it consume your Bonus action?
> 
> Or can you do that thing multiple times per round? If so it goes from "woah" to "WOOOOOOOOAH" (including a variable but large number of exclamation points).


Not specifying Action or Bonus Action, my take it it's a freebie, 'you can use' as if it is optional, so if you want to slap someone, you can choose to not do that extra 2d10

yeah these gloves are serious business

----------


## Dork_Forge

They make the Monk really good at what they do (assuming it's a primarily unarmed Monk), but I'm not sure they're crazy powerful since they are legendary. Even if you hit the damage every attack, you still won't hit every attack unless you're lucky and then it's mostly closing the game with creatures that have magic weapons. 

The healing is the biggest thing, but ultimately it mainly seems like a way to stay up when slugging it out with a Tier 4 bruiser, it probably puts the Monk up there for durability with a Barbarian (assuming the Barbarian didn't max Con).

On the acquisition thing, it's a shame that they have an inherently evil creation ritual, but I don't think that'll really stop it being used as an item. It exists in that one shot only in that capacity, if the DM wants to include it in the game, it'll be in the game, just like any other magic item.




> Is the "use the gloves to deal ..." an action type, like does it consume your Bonus action?
> 
> Or can you do that thing multiple times per round? If so it goes from "woah" to "WOOOOOOOOAH" (including a variable but large number of exclamation points).


There's no action economy cost to trigger it or a limit on amount of times per turn it can be used.

----------


## ProsecutorGodot

> They make the Monk really good at what they do (assuming it's a primarily unarmed Monk), but I'm not sure they're crazy powerful since they are legendary. Even if you hit the damage every attack, you still won't hit every attack unless you're lucky and then it's mostly closing the game with creatures that have magic weapons. 
> 
> The healing is the biggest thing, but ultimately it mainly seems like a way to stay up when slugging it out with a Tier 4 bruiser, it probably puts the Monk up there for durability with a Barbarian (assuming the Barbarian didn't max Con).


In cases where the healing isn't important you can opt for "permanent" advantage as long as you don't miss. 

It's also worth noting this Advantage isn't limited to Unarmed Attacks, It's probably nowhere near optimal but a Champion who alternates between punching and attacking with a weapon (preferably a Vorpal Sword) could crit fish like crazy.

I think Fighter might almost be better at using this than a Monk.

----------


## Kane0

> Is the "use the gloves to deal ..." an action type, like does it consume your Bonus action?
> 
> Or can you do that thing multiple times per round? If so it goes from "woah" to "WOOOOOOOOAH" (including a variable but large number of exclamation points).


It does indeed appear to be of the "WOOOOOOOOAH" (including a variable but large number of exclamation points) variety.

----------


## Amnestic

> Is there a way to acquire them without it being problematic?


Kill the person who made them (because they're a baddie), then put them to 'good use' doing good things.

----------


## kingcheesepants

> And the very few that aren't evil already have a host (Azure Edge) or are plot related story McGuffins (Sword of Zariel)
> 
> It's a recent thing I've really started to dislike (even though it was obvious for a long time) that most high level magic items really aren't designed with the idea that your PC will actually have them. In many cases, I'm confused why half of the artifacts that are available even have an item description because the circumstances around them have a big flag that says "not for you".
> 
> Artifacts are super cool, I especially like the aspect that their minor or major boons can have some (small) impact on how a player uses them, but you just so rarely have the opportunity to get one.


Yeah, I agree 100% and am glad to see that others have noticed the same thing in regards to lots of the more powerful items being evil. Artifacts and legendary weapons/items are the kinds of crazy magic items that the players get way at the end of the campaign as a kind of capstone for their character. In the case of artifacts they might spend huge chunks of a campaign questing for them specifically. The fact that the majority of the best and coolest ones are basically locked out for good (or even neutral) aligned PCs is really a mistake in design. The players might spend 2+ real world years on a campaign from tier 1 to tier 4, by the end of that shouldn't they be able to get the super items for those last few sessions? I know that I can take the same items and reflavor them as good (which is exactly what I did with Blackrazor for my group) but I would like to see more legendary and artifact level items with cool and unique properties that aren't evil.

----------


## diplomancer

Sounds like an item you get and (if you are not evil) you go on a quest to "restore" the destroyed souls. Item then gets a downgrade (or a sidegrade if your DM is generous)

----------


## Telok

Great intellect: lich or evil archmage

Strong body: evil dragon or giant

Pure heart: demon or evil high priest (pure evil)

So what's the issue? At high level you're possibly offing multiples of each of them every week. It is a good act to march into the lair of an evil (color coded) dragon, murder it, and take it's stuff, based on a presumption of guilt that the stuff once belonged to other people. It can't be any worse to gank a high end evil monster in a way that prevents resurrection.

----------


## Amnestic

> Great intellect: lich or evil archmage
> 
> Strong body: evil dragon or giant
> 
> Pure heart: demon or evil high priest (pure evil)
> 
> So what's the issue? At high level you're possibly offing multiples of each of them every week. It is a good act to march into the lair of an evil (color coded) dragon, murder it, and take it's stuff, based on a presumption of guilt that the stuff once belonged to other people. It can't be any worse to gank a high end evil monster in a way that prevents resurrection.


Consuming souls for power is usually viewed as a pretty bad thing to do, even if they're 'evil' souls.

----------


## HPisBS

> Consuming souls for power is usually viewed as a pretty bad thing to do, even if they're 'evil' souls.


It's just that on a 5-pt-scale, it might be a 2 or 3 instead of a hard 5.

----------


## Tanarii

> Is it just me or does it seem like all the coolest and most powerful magic items have a decidedly evil flair to them? These gloves for sure but also the most powerful weapons are sentient weapons which give all sorts of fun bonuses (free spells and such) but most sentient weapons available in modules and official sources are evil.


Clearly they should have added the requirement that all three souls be evil, so that good characters could create them.  :Small Amused: 




> It's a recent thing I've really started to dislike (even though it was obvious for a long time) that most high level magic items really aren't designed with the idea that your PC will actually have them. In many cases, I'm confused why half of the artifacts that are available even have an item description because the circumstances around them have a big flag that says "not for you".


Because it's traditional for artifacts to always have a downside in return for the power?  That was even officially enshrined in BECMI.

OTOH for the gloves it isn't really a downside ... as long as someone else made them, and you're just taking them off their hands and using them.

----------


## Dork_Forge

> In cases where the healing isn't important you can opt for "permanent" advantage as long as you don't miss. 
> 
> It's also worth noting this Advantage isn't limited to Unarmed Attacks, It's probably nowhere near optimal but a Champion who alternates between punching and attacking with a weapon (preferably a Vorpal Sword) could crit fish like crazy.
> 
> I think Fighter might almost be better at using this than a Monk.


A Fighter with a Monk dip... maybe, otherwise I just don't see beating the Monk's unarmed attacks.

Flip flopping to a weapon for advantage only really seems like a good idea if you have a Vorpal sword or were fighting at disadvantage. Otherwise I can't really think of a weapon or situation that would justify trading 2dd10 guaranteed damage (assuming that damage wouldn't be resisted/immune).

----------


## ProsecutorGodot

> A Fighter with a Monk dip... maybe, otherwise I just don't see beating the Monk's unarmed attacks.
> 
> Flip flopping to a weapon for advantage only really seems like a good idea if you have a Vorpal sword or were fighting at disadvantage. Otherwise I can't really think of a weapon or situation that would justify trading 2dd10 guaranteed damage (assuming that damage wouldn't be resisted/immune).


Yeah, likely not, the Fighter only starts to consistently beat the Monk in attacks when they reach 20th level. Echo Knights can make an extra unarmed attack using their Echo though (guaranteed 5 times per long rest with this item) and Rune Knight gains bonus unarmed damage. Samurai can also use the advantage gained to trigger Rapid Strike, though that follow up must be with a weapon.




> So what's the issue? At high level you're possibly offing multiples of each of them every week. It is a good act to march into the lair of an evil (color coded) dragon, murder it, and take it's stuff, based on a presumption of guilt that the stuff once belonged to other people. It can't be any worse to gank a high end evil monster in a way that prevents resurrection.


Like many have said, soul destruction in itself tends to be evil regardless of your target. It's not something good people readily do, even if killing the evil creature is easily justified, destroying their soul is another level entirely.

I have been theorizing on ways to minimize the sort of impact, but I don't think there's really a situation you can argue that you weren't doing something heinous to get these gloves. On the flip side, an evil character would _very easily_ be able to round up the materials.

I think a Lich might be the only "safe" target. They're evil (at least in the vast majority of cases) and offer nothing good to the world. There soul is already doomed to be destroyed* if they are to be removed from the world anyway, the only issue is if using them to fuel this ritual is treated any worse than destroying their phylactery through the "correct" methods.
*At least if I'm reading this correctly, their soul being permanently bound to the phylactery should mean its also destroyed if you destroy the phylactery.

----------


## KorvinStarmast

> Wasn't aware the Candlekeep Mysteries were available in any way yet.


 Mine showed up in the mail yesterday.  Wife got all cross when I sat down with a glass of wine to read through it, and she put me to work.   :Small Eek:  I'll be able to review it later in the week.

@Tanarii - that was my take on it.

----------


## Aett_Thorn

These would certainly make a high level Drunken Master Monk able to do a ton of damage to a horde of enemies at high level (up to 7 attacks doing 3d10 + stat) damage, with most of that being spread out. Again, not a horribly overpower thing, but definitely a vast improvement over what they can do now.

----------


## MrStabby

> Consuming souls for power is usually viewed as a pretty bad thing to do, even if they're 'evil' souls.


What happend to evil souls on death this edition?

Is there a possability you could get consent from people not looking forwards to a nice afterlife?

----------


## micahaphone

> Great intellect: lich or evil archmage
> 
> Strong body: evil dragon or giant
> 
> Pure heart: demon or evil high priest (pure evil)
> 
> So what's the issue? At high level you're possibly offing multiples of each of them every week. It is a good act to march into the lair of an evil (color coded) dragon, murder it, and take it's stuff, based on a presumption of guilt that the stuff once belonged to other people. It can't be any worse to gank a high end evil monster in a way that prevents resurrection.


I was willing to consider the first two, but I really don't think pure heart can mean anyone evil. Were I your DM the ritual would still require that one immoral sacrifice

----------


## Thunderous Mojo

> It's just that on a 5-pt-scale, it might be a 2 or 3 instead of a hard 5.


What? D&D is a reality, where entities have souls. Souls allow creatures to be raised from the dead, or reincarnated, or transformed into other creatures like angels or devils.  

So on a 5 point scale of Wickedness, sucking something's soul, 
sucking something else's _soul_,  and destroying the soul,
And any chance, ever (!), of being raised from the dead, or reincarnated,
 warrants just  a "2.5" score from the East German Judge?

Destroying a soul, isn't something Revivify can fix.  I would warrant it is a bit more serious an offense than a "2.5" Ranking on an absolute Moral Scale.  It is a pretty big time offense, from my point of view.

----------


## micahaphone

> What? D&D is a reality, where entities have souls. Souls allow creatures to be raised from the dead, or reincarnated, or transformed into other creatures like angels or devils.  
> 
> So on a 5 point scale of Wickedness, sucking something's soul, 
> sucking something else's _soul_,  and destroying the soul,
> And any chance, ever (!), of being raised from the dead, or reincarnated,
>  warrants just  a "2.5" score from the East German Judge?
> 
> Destroying a soul, isn't something Revivify can fix.  I would warrant it is a bit more serious an offense than a "2.5" Ranking on an absolute Moral Scale.  It is a pretty big time offense, from my point of view.



Depends on where the soul is headed in the afterlife. Did you just save someone from eternal torment? That's almost a mercy (soul)kill.  Or stop a fiend from respawning in their home realm? That's worth a lot. Sure, there's some negative karma in the creation of a pair, but if you use them to perma-kill 1000 demons, is that a net gain?

----------


## Amnestic

> Is there a possability you could get consent from people not looking forwards to a nice afterlife?


It's possible, but I imagine people who would meet the criteria for soul eating and who want their soul to be eaten are probably thin on the ground.

An added complication is that by their nature these souls are probably pretty big shots, consuming them (even if you do manage to find bad-enough-dudes that it's a 'good' act) might put you on some bad dude lists for stealing souls that should've gone to hell.  Lawful/true neutral death-god types and evil gods who wanted the bad dude souls for power both might take a bit of umbrage. Of course, that's a nice little plothook, but it's something to be aware of as a consequence that isn't based in morality for its construction.

It probably depends on the cosmology on your specific setting, but I think in FR it'd still be viewed generally as an evil act. 

Neat item though. I want one on my level 6 monk, totally not broken at all!

----------


## HPisBS

> What? D&D is a reality, where entities have souls. Souls allow creatures to be raised from the dead, or reincarnated, or transformed into other creatures like angels or devils.  
> 
> So on a 5 point scale of Wickedness, sucking something's soul, 
> sucking something else's _soul_,  and destroying the soul,
> And any chance, ever (!), of being raised from the dead, or reincarnated,
>  warrants just  a "2.5" score from the East German Judge?
> 
> Destroying a soul, isn't something Revivify can fix.  I would warrant it is a bit more serious an offense than a "2.5" Ranking on an absolute Moral Scale.  It is a pretty big time offense, from my point of view.





> Depends on where the soul is headed in the afterlife. Did you just save someone from eternal torment? That's almost a mercy (soul)kill.  Or stop a fiend from respawning in their home realm? That's worth a lot....


I'd echo micahaphone, but unironically.

It says destroy "a _being's_ soul," not "a _person's_" or "a _humanoid's_," so fiends, undead, and other _beings_ are valid sacrifices. Actually, fiends would be a more consistently valid "being of pure heart."  Pure evil is still "pure," after all. (Undead may or may not actually have a _heart_ in the literal _or_ metaphorical sense, so lets stick to fiends.)

For that matter, take out three Glabrezu demons and you'd be set. (If 19 Int isn't enough to be a "great intellect," then substitute a Blue Abishai or something.)

----------


## Kane0

Demon slayer: Legendary monk gloves! Get your monk gloves here!

----------


## pwykersotz

> I'd echo micahaphone, but unironically.
> 
> It says destroy "a _being's_ soul," not "a _person's_" or "a _humanoid's_," so fiends, undead, and other _beings_ are valid sacrifices. Actually, fiends would be a more consistently valid "being of pure heart."  Pure evil is still "pure," after all. (Undead may or may not actually have a _heart_ in the literal _or_ metaphorical sense, so lets stick to fiends.)
> 
> For that matter, take out three Glabrezu demons and you'd be set. (If 19 Int isn't enough to be a "great intellect," then substitute a Blue Abishai or something.)


On the one hand, yes, but you have to read the room. If your GM puts this in here with this flavor, they're doing one of two things. Either they're daring you to go evil for power, or they're looking for you to subvert it. Besides, if you do sacrifice evil souls to do this, they're being used to make your gloves. That's another quick way to get an evil magic item.

As a GM, I find the flavor compelling from a story perspective, but boring from a game one. I think this flavoring begs to be rewritten to match an extreme challenge in whatever campaign this is placed into. It's a great starting point to get the imagination working though, as evidenced by this thread.

----------


## Nifft

> On the one hand, yes, but you have to read the room. If your GM puts this in here with this flavor, they're doing one of two things. Either they're daring you to go evil for power, or they're looking for you to subvert it. Besides, if you do sacrifice evil souls to do this, they're being used to make your gloves. That's another quick way to get an evil magic item.
> 
> As a GM, I find the flavor compelling from a story perspective, but boring from a game one. I think this flavoring begs to be rewritten to match an extreme challenge in whatever campaign this is placed into. It's a great starting point to get the imagination working though, as evidenced by this thread.


1 - The flavor isn't what got this thread going, it's the mechanical power.

2 - Otherwise I mostly agree with you, the gloves are written as a tool for a novelist rather than a GM.

3 - As a GM, making the ingredients into plot-hooks rather than squicky morality traps sounds way more interesting -- like, one might need an Aboleth soul as an ingredient, since they're otherwise immortal and since punching them is good morally-responsible fun.

----------


## ProsecutorGodot

> 1 - The flavor isn't what got this thread going, it's the mechanical power.


The flavor is an aspect that I mention in the OP, and actually a lot more interesting (to me) than what amounts to just a damage increase, though a quite significant one.




> 3 - As a GM, making the ingredients into plot-hooks rather than squicky morality traps sounds way more interesting -- like, one might need an Aboleth soul as an ingredient, since they're otherwise immortal and since punching them is good morally-responsible fun.


This is the kind of discussion I was hoping to see more of. We already know what obviously immoral methods can be used to create the gloves... let's get creative.

I've already kind of floated the idea with my DM*. My Paladin has a bit of a soul trapping issue, his youth and physical strength are trapped in a fragmented resurrection diamond. Would that be a way to satisfy "a strong body" or perhaps even "a pure heart" without killing him? 
*We both DM for the group so he does ask me for input on what might be cool to see in the campaign.

----------


## MrStabby

> It's possible, but I imagine people who would meet the criteria for soul eating and who want their soul to be eaten are probably thin on the ground.
> 
> An added complication is that by their nature these souls are probably pretty big shots, consuming them (even if you do manage to find bad-enough-dudes that it's a 'good' act) might put you on some bad dude lists for stealing souls that should've gone to hell.  Lawful/true neutral death-god types and evil gods who wanted the bad dude souls for power both might take a bit of umbrage. Of course, that's a nice little plothook, but it's something to be aware of as a consequence that isn't based in morality for its construction.
> 
> It probably depends on the cosmology on your specific setting, but I think in FR it'd still be viewed generally as an evil act. 
> 
> Neat item though. I want one on my level 6 monk, totally not broken at all!


Oh yeah, that is one heel of a plot hook.  Some Devil comes back complaining about property damage after you destroy a specific soul they were due.  It could be played so many different ways.  I love it.

----------


## pwykersotz

> This is the kind of discussion I was hoping to see more of. We already know what obviously immoral methods can be used to create the gloves... let's get creative.
> 
> I've already kind of floated the idea with my DM*. My Paladin has a bit of a soul trapping issue, his youth and physical strength are trapped in a fragmented resurrection diamond. Would that be a way to satisfy "a strong body" or perhaps even "a pure heart" without killing him? 
> *We both DM for the group so he does ask me for input on what might be cool to see in the campaign.


I think it's highly campaign dependent. If one of my players in an existing game wanted this and I was keen on keeping the flavor as close to the original as possible, I might say you need to earn the blessing of three masters of the fist, one of each strong mind/body/heart. If they will each willingly lay hands on the gloves before you enchant them, then the gloves can be crafted. Doing this would probably require each of the masters to give something up though. Since these are legendary, I would expect impressing them would be something suitably massive like slaying an ancient dragon that has been hounding their realm, defeating one in single combat, or maybe, having left the path of the fist, inspiring them to return to it.

If I didn't want to make three masters and potentially derail an existing campaign, I would give them the gloves early with some minor magic, and have them enhanced over time. I would justify one of these deeds being done for mind/body/heart for each major milestone the party accomplished, and then have one big event where the gloves were finished in suitably epic fashion.

----------


## Thunderous Mojo

> I'd echo micahaphone, but unironically.
> 
> It says destroy "a _being's_ soul," not "a _person's_" or "a _humanoid's_," so fiends, undead, and other _beings_ are valid sacrifices.


The essence of my point is that transmigration of souls, makes the type of soul irrelevant.  The fiend's soul might have been an Angel before, in a few thousand years it might become an gentle elf......your moral calculus could be short sighted if you are only considering what the soul is _now_, without considering a nigh eternal future or past  of possibilities.

Pure Evil may not always have been or will be pure evil.  Arch devils are considered to be rather evil, yet Zariel can be redeemed.   Graz'zt is rumored to have switched from being a Devil to a Demon....perhaps Graz'zt could be redeemed.

The metaphysics of 5e D&D can vary wildly from game to game.

----------


## Nifft

> Pure Evil may not always have been or will be pure evil.  Arch devils are considered to be rather evil, yet Zariel can be redeemed.   Graz'zt is rumored to have switched from being a Devil to a Demon....perhaps Graz'zt could be redeemed.


"Hello, I caught Graz'zt and I'd like to redeem him."

"You can only redeem souls in groups of three."

"Let me check my purse... ah, I have an Aboleth and a spare orphan."

"Thank you sir, here are your gloves."

----------


## Doug Lampert

> Great intellect: lich or evil archmage
> 
> Strong body: evil dragon or giant
> 
> Pure heart: demon or evil high priest (pure evil)
> 
> So what's the issue? At high level you're possibly offing multiples of each of them every week. It is a good act to march into the lair of an evil (color coded) dragon, murder it, and take it's stuff, based on a presumption of guilt that the stuff once belonged to other people. It can't be any worse to gank a high end evil monster in a way that prevents resurrection.





> I was willing to consider the first two, but I really don't think pure heart can mean anyone evil. Were I your DM the ritual would still require that one immoral sacrifice


Nonsense, you can CERTAINLY use pure evil as pure at heart, and it absolutely will not create an explicitly evil artifact that hates you personally and has the power to do something about it. Trying to mess with the nature of a ritual like this ALWAYS works perfectly.

----------


## Telok

> Nonsense, you can CERTAINLY use pure evil as pure at heart, and it absolutely will not create an explicitly evil artifact that hates you personally and has the power to do something about it. Trying to mess with the nature of a ritual like this ALWAYS works perfectly.


In one of the old old od&d/ad&d there was an issue with resurection. Animals and elves had spirits, not souls. Reincarnation worked but raise dead called for a soul.

These days of course you want to keep things simple, so everything has a soul. Need a pure soul? How much do you like veal? Whacking a newborn calf isn't any worse than boiling lobsters alive right? Simple, yeah?

Less jokingly, the writer(s) probably assumed that everyone uses particular words like "pure" in the same manner they do. Of course anyone with, say, a chemistry background will have a rather strict default definition of "pure". Pure flourine is basically hell on earth and almost certainly not the definition of the word that the writer(s) were assuming. In a similar manner "all souls are equal", "all souls reincarnate/recycle", and "anything can be redeemed/fixed" are cultural assumptions. Pretty much it's "ask your dm because this is just an idea".

----------


## Droodicus

Idea! A monastery high up in the mountains who train for this very thing. Whenever a grand threat emerges they hold a tournament to determine who is the strongest warrior. The grandmasters  also choose from those who compete those who are most pure of body mind and soul. The 4 champions ascend to the highest peak of the mountain with the grandmasters.
Only the strongest fighter returns 'blessed with the powers of the other 3. Do they sacrifice themselves willingly or is it more sinister?  You decide.

----------


## Imbalance

A ritual that requires three souls in a monkey's paw transaction?  Sounds like hag magic to me.

----------


## Daefaroth

Keep in mind that "pure of heart" doesn't necessarily mean "good". The most common non-Christian definition is "A pure heart has no hypocrisy, no guile, no hidden motives."

So a being that totally and openly dedicated to evil with "no hypocrisy, no guile, no hidden motives" can be considered pure of heart. Given that, Gloves of Soul Catching constructed using 3 unrepentant, irredeemable evil-doers who insist on spreading evil and doing as much harm as they can (you know, demons) could, technically, be considered a "good" act.

Just sayin'...

----------


## Peelee

*The Mod on the Silver Mountain:* Gloves of Soul Catching don't protect against Thread Necromancy.

----------

