# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 >  Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Gunslinger, Slayer, Swashbuckler and Shifter

## pabelfly

I'm interested in starting work on a tier list for Pathfinder, in the same way that we have a tier list for 3.5 (link). This link is a collection of discussions about the power and versatility of all the base classes of 3.5 DnD, and its quite a useful resource. I think Pathfinder could do with a similar resource as a point of information and discussion.

There has been an informal attempt to do a tier list for Pathfinder, which I've also used as part of the reference to this thread: (link). But this lacks discussion on the classes and a shared consensus on how scoring works, both of which are as important as the tier number itself.

The current, work-in-progress thread for Pathfinder Tiers version of this thread is here (link). This thread has links to previous tiering threads and short summaries of thread discussions for those who missed them when they were posted. Contributions and votes for older threads are still welcome and your votes still count.

This time, well tier Gunslinger, Slayer, Swashbuckler and Shifter.

For reference, in the informal thread:
*Gunslinger* is tiered between *4.69 and 4.88* 
*Shifter* is tiered at *4.5* 
*Slayer* is tiered between *3.88 and 4*  
*Swashbuckler* is tiered at *5* 


So, the questions are: what should each of these be tiered at? And are there any notable archetypes for these classes that deserve separate tiering? I guess a discussion thread is the way to find out.




*What are the tiers?*

The simple answer here is that tier one is the best, the home of things on the approximate problem solving scale of wizards, and tier six is the worst, land of commoners. And problem solving capacity is what's being measured here. Considering the massive range of challenges a character is liable to be presented with across the levels, how much and how often does that character's class contribute to the defeat of those challenges? This value should be considered as a rough averaging across all levels, the center of the level range somewhat more than really low and really high level characters, and across all optimization levels (considering DM restrictiveness as a plausible downward acting factor on how optimized a character is), prioritizing moderate optimization somewhat more than low or high.

A big issue with the original tier system is that, if anything, it was too specific, generating inflexible definitions for allowance into a tier which did not cover the broad spectrum of ways a class can operate. When an increase in versatility would seem to represent a decrease in tier, because tier two is supposed to be low versatility, it's obvious that we've become mired in something that'd be pointless to anyone trying to glean information from the tier system. Thus, I will be uncharacteristically word light here. The original tier system's tier descriptions are still good guidelines here, but they shouldn't be assumed to be the end all and be all for how classes get ranked.

Consistent throughout these tiers is the notion of problems and the solving thereof. For the purposes of this tier system, the problem space can be said to be inclusive of combat, social interaction, and exploration, with the heaviest emphasis placed on combat. A problem could theoretically fall outside of that space, but things inside that space are definitely problems. Another way to view the idea of problem solving is through the lens of the niche ranking system. A niche filled tends to imply the capacity to solve a type of problem, whether it's a status condition in the case of healing, or an enemy that just has too many hit points in the case of melee combat. It's not a perfect measure, both because some niches have a lot of overlap in the kinds of problems they can solve and because, again, the niches aren't necessarily all inclusive, but they can act as a good tool for class evaluation.

*Tier one:* Incredibly good at solving nearly all problems. This is the realm of clerics, druids, and wizards, classes that open up with strong combat spells backed up by utility, and then get massively stronger from there. If you're not keeping up with that core trio of tier one casters, then you probably don't belong here.

*Tier two:* We're just a step below tier one here, in the land of classes around the sorcerer level of power. Generally speaking, this means relaxing one of the two tier one assumptions, either getting us to very good at solving nearly all problems, or incredibly good at solving most problems. But, as will continue to be the case as these tiers go on, there aren't necessarily these two simple categories for this tier. You gotta lose something compared to the tier one casters, but what you lose doesn't have to be in some really specific proportions.

*Tier three:* Again, we gotta sacrifice something compared to tier two, here taking us to around the level of a Bard or Skald. The usual outcome is that you are very good at solving a couple of problems and competent at solving a few more. Of course, there are other possibilities, for example that you might instead be competent at solving nearly all problems.

*Tier four:* Here we're in Fighter and Barbarian territory. Starting from that standard tier three position, the usual sweet spots here are very good at solving a few problems, or alright at solving many problems.

*Tier five:* We're heading close to the dregs here. Tier five is the tier of chained Monk, classes that are as bad as you can be without being an aristocrat or a commoner. Classes here are sometimes very good at solving nearly no problems, or alright at solving a few, or some other function thereof. It's weak, is the point.

*Tier six:* And here we have commoner tier. Or, the bottom is commoner. The top is approximately aristocrat. You don't necessarily have nothing in this tier, but you have close enough to it.

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## vasilidor

Gun Slinger 4, though the nerf to Deadly Aim hurt this class. That nerf that only existed after they introduced guns to the setting when they already had wizards and sorcerers taking advantage of the feat since the games inception. Yes, I am bitter.
Slayer 3.5. It is a good class.
Swashbuckler 5. It reads like it should be a 4, But Panache makes it overly MAD, in my opinion, with lackluster returns in comparison to what other classes often get for being a bit MAD.
Shifter 5. I wanted to like this class. Really it should have just been wild shape on a warrior chassis and not what ever this is.

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## pabelfly

So I actually backported Gunslinger to 3.5. As the DM, I wanted a gun-wielding class for world-building reasons, and one of my players ended up playing it.

Since the class could easily target flatfooted, it was near-certain to hit, but I found it doing subpar damage since Deadly Aim wasn't a relevant feat for it.

What feats or archetypes should I consider backporting with Gunslinger to make it more relevant in combat?

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## Gnaeus

Shifter and swashbuckler 5
Gunslinger 5. With good optimization they are a one solid trick 4. But it's not like an optimized monk couldn't do damage either. Worse than fighter can't do anything but fight makes a t5.
Slayer low 3. Versatile fighter, with added utility.

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## Rynjin

> Gun Slinger 4, though the nerf to Deadly Aim hurt this class. That nerf that only existed after they introduced guns to the setting when they already had wizards and sorcerers taking advantage of the feat since the games inception. Yes, I am bitter.


Deadly Aim works just fine out of the box for guns, not sure what you're talking about. They're specifically excepted from the "doesn't work on Touch attacks" clause.

Anyway:

Gunslinger T4: It's a Fighter with guns. This is a sidegrade more than an upgrade.

Slayer T4: I love Slayer. It does not even creep anywhere close to T3. It's a Fighter with more flexible Weapon Training.

Swashbuckler T5: I hate this class. It's a Fighter with lower attack rolls and higher damage. And no access to ANY particularly powerful tricks. No real utility at all, besides bare minimum skill competence.

Shifter T5: I also hate this class. It is worse at shapeshifting than every other shapeshifting focused class. And some that AREN'T focused on it. I would rather be a Feral Hunter, which gets 6 levels of casting. or Feral Champion Warpriest, which gets 6 levels of casting. Or an Avenging Beast Vigilante, which _gets 6 levels of casting._ And another thing they all share? They can shift into any animal form, not just _a single one_, plus a couple more as you level. A Skinwalker (race) with Warrior NPC levels is better at shapeshifting than the Shifter.

Normally, Wild Shape access would give you instant high T4 status AT LEAST because of the utility it grants, but Shifter doesn't get that utility due to not having flexibility of forms. It's a terrible combatant, terrible at bringing utility, and most insultingly is utterly focused on a single class feature and theme to the exclusion of everything else and _still fails at that single class feature compared to classes that have it as merely a side benefit._

You will be unsurprised to note that Shifter is the result of the single splatbook that Paizo did not run any sort of playtest for, a practice which they immediately reversed going forward because as it turns out, that's a really bad idea.

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## Thunder999

Slayer is a solid tier 4, basically a rogue who trades a few skill points for better class features, BAB etc. 

Gunslinger is low tier 4, it's the way to make guns work, but it's also got very little going for it, 90% of gunslinger builds are gunslinger 5/something better 15, which really says a lot.  It's not got the Advanced weapon and armour training of a fighter, rage powers of a barbarian etc.  
Still, shooting things with guns is a very effective way to fight and being great at 1 thing is good enough for tier 4
Tier 4.3

Swashbuckler is like gunslinger only instead of making an awkward but potentially strong (hitting touch AC is very nice) weapon useable, they just do a mediocre job of incentivising you to use a single 1 handed weapon, Parry and Riposte is nice, but given at level 1. Swashbuckler is a class you dip a level of then go take something with better class features (Inspired Blade into Investigator is a classic combo for int synergy and dex to damage).  
Unlike the gunslinger their mandatory combat style isn't particularly good, in fact using a single 1 handed weapon is the worst combat style you could possibly choose (unless you're a magus), lower damage than a 2-hander, lack of good reach weapons, no extra attacks like TWF etc.  
4.5

Base Shifter is certainly bad, possibly even a tier 5. 

I think we should rate Adaptive Shifter seperately, it's basically an archetype made to fix some of the many complaints people had with the base Shifter and does a decent job.  

It's got immediate action bonuses to saves, DR and energy resistance, along with fly, climb and burrow speeds, perception or stealth bonuses (including a slightly worse hide-in-plain sight like ability), size increase, self healing, reach increase for all natural attacks, and the ability to make attacks aligned, everything except the healing works as swift or immediate action (healing is sadly not immediate action).  
And it gets full progression Wild Shape with only Elemental Forms lost.  
That's a high tier 4 or low tier 3 to me, wild shape is a damn good ability and the aspects are pretty helpful.

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## Kurald Galain

*Gunslinger* - Of all the classes in the game, this is definitely one of them. There's just not a whole lot to say; it's just like an archer, but with guns - and since "archer" isn't a class, why would "gunslinger" be one? In practice, they deal decent but unspectacular amounts of damage (whereas actual archers get some of the highest DPR in the game), and they bring nothing else to the table. A clear example of *Tier Five*, and note that most weapon-using classes have a gun-wielding archetype, and almost all of those are better than the gunslinger class. Well, except the slayer and swashbuckler one, that is.

*Shifter* - One of the most maligned classes of the game, but bear in mind that it's derided because it is highly unoriginal, not because it's ineffective. On the one hand, there is little or no reason to play a shifter if the hunter or druid are available, or other shapeshifting archetypes. On the other hand, the shifter does get good damage numbers, and it has some decent abilities like early-access flight. All in all, it's much better than its reputation suggests, but "much better" still doesn't bring it above "adequate". *Tier Four*.

Exception: Oozemorph archetype is *Tier 6* for being completely unplayable.

*Slayer* - It's utterly bland and forgettable, but it gets the job done. Its numbers are good, but it lacks stand-out abilities of other melee classes, such as fighter advanced weapon training or bloodrager bloodlines. Overall I'll give it *Tier 4.5* for that.

*Swashbuckler* - Conceptually, it's unclear why this exists as a separate class, instead of a fighter with specific style, or perhaps a melee rogue. Mechanically, it gets a great ability at level one (parry & riposte), a good ability at level two (charmed life), and is entirely boring after that. So in practice, people don't play this as a full class, but take a one- or two-level dip on e.g. rogue or mesmerist or even barbarian (as parry & riposte works with any weapon and doesn't require dex). A hypothetical pure swashy brings decent-but-not-amazing damage to the table and doesn't really do anything else; and the fact that _even casual players_ see this as only a dip makes it *Tier Five*.




> They're specifically excepted from the "doesn't work on Touch attacks" clause.


I'm unable to find this specific exception on aonprd; it appears to have been errata'ed out.




> What feats or archetypes should I consider backporting with Gunslinger to make it more relevant in combat?


Eldritch Archer.

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## Rynjin

> I'm unable to find this specific exception on aonprd; it appears to have been errata'ed out.


You're just looking in the wrong spot; it's under the general Firearms rules.




> Early Firearms: When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, *but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim.* At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking the normal cumulative 2 penalty for each full range increment. Unlike other projectile weapons, early firearms have a maximum range of five range increments.
> 
> Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms resolve their attacks against touch AC when the target is within the first five range increments, *but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats such as Deadly Aim.* At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking the normal cumulative 2 penalty for each full-range increment. Advanced firearms have a maximum range of 10 range increments.

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## pabelfly

*VOTE UPDATE*

*Gunslinger*
Vasilidor, Rynjin  4
Thunder999  4.3
Gnaeus, Kurald Galain  5

_Average  4.46_



*Shifter*
Kurald Galain  4
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin, Thunder999  5

_Average  4.8_



*Shifter (Adaptive)*
Thunder999  3.5
Kurald Galain  4
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin  5

_Average  4.5_



*Slayer*
Vasilidor, Gnaeus  3.5
Rynjin, Thunder999  4
Kurald Galain  4.5

_Average  3.9_


*Swashbuckler*
Thunder999  4.5
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin, Kurald Galain  5

_Average  4.9_

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## Thunder999

Gunslinger is not tier 5, tier 5 is 




> Classes here are sometimes very good at solving nearly no problems, or alright at solving a few, or some other function thereof. It's weak, is the point.


Gunslingers might be decidedly narrow in scope, but they're very effective at killing things, they're an archer that targets touch AC with dex to damage, literally all they miss out on compared ot a bow is Manyshot, in return you can build to TWF and you hit touch AC. Reloading is annoying, but generally fixed by the time you actually have iteratives to care about.

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## AnonymousPepper

Have played neither Swash nor Shifter, and I don't have enough to say about Slayer to rate it.

Gunslinger is an almost archetypical high-end Tier 4. It excels at killing the ever-loving crap out of things, which makes it a definitive tier 4; in particular, you're better than any other classes of its ilk in a specific niche, in that hitting touch against everything is a nontrivial boon against some big beasties and particularly against undead for which brilliant energy doesn't work. It has 4+int skill points so it's not completely useless on the out-of-combat front, and comes in both wisdom and charisma flavors so it can pull a decent face role or investigation role, if not great. Some of the utility deeds also actually are worthy of the name. That said, if you're willing to lose the 4+, you can just play a Trench Fighter and get all the amazing stuff Fighters get access to (with the exception of Armor Training, which sadly makes it incompatible with Lore Warden which would fix the skill points), and be two levels early on the dex-to-damage too. Still, Gunslinger is almost the epitome of solid, consistent damage, with passable (for a pure combat class) utility, and I think that counts for something. *4.0.*

The commentary I have for Slayer is just that, frankly, why not play a Sanctified Slayer instead and be just... better? Go down to medium BAB - which you just replace with Divine Favor and later Divine Power plus Bane - and, in exchange for losing a few talents and your advanced talents, gain _everything else that a tier 3 class has to offer except for Judgements?_ I'm currently playing a Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor in the same game as a Slayer and we play almost identically except for me having spells and Bane and ludicrous initiative and so much more.

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## vasilidor

I suddenly want to see the errata history on this.
But I digress, not the topic of the thread.
It does help cement the gunslinger as tier 4.

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## Drelua

Gunslingers are a solid Tier 4 to me, targeting touch AC means they barely ever miss and they get Dex to damage automatically, something that I don't think archers can easily get. I don't think it really weakens the class that a lot of builds only take 5 levels, just because their class features are front loaded doesn't mean they aren't effective at any level. There's just a lot of good feats they can take, so switching to Fighter can be a good idea.

I don't have a tonne of experience with Swashbucklers, basically no one in PFS here plays them. I made sort of a swashbuckler just before the class was announced because I watched Princess Bride, just played an Ustalavic Duelist Fighter. After the class came out I compared my character's numbers and found that I was at least as strong as a Swashbuckler, so i just took one level of Inspired Blade for the parry and riposte. They're okay by themself, nowhere near as effective as a Fighter or Gunslinger in combat in only slightly more useful out of combat. I'll say Tier 4.5 for them.

Never played a Shifter and don't know anyone that has, because why would anyone do that, and my Slayer got killed by a run of incredibly bad luck in his first session, so I won't vote on those. Not the class's fault I got blinding sickness, poisoned, couldn't make a single save, then got critted by a goblin. Guess I just wasn't meant to play a Slayer.

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## exelsisxax

Gunslinger: T4.5
You can do one thing, and that is shoot things to death with guns. it works, but that is the _only_ thing you have. No flexibility, no versatility, no fallback options or even ribbon abilities of any note. 

Shifter: T5 (adaptive T4.5?)
Shifter is trash. As others have mentioned, it may be the worst possible option for a shapeshifter. Druids, hunters, even warpriests have wildshape or better, shifters don't even have druid level of wildshape. They get natural attack features - except again almost any other relevant class would be better for natural attacks through more impactful combat boosts. 
Adaptive shifter is significantly better merely through having full wildshape, immediate/swift action defensive and offensive boosts bring it up to a respectable, much too narrow martial.

Slayer: T4
Messy fighter/rogue/ranger combination, but talents are good and studied target is a great combat boost. Reliably great at killing in many situations with whatever style you want, but not much else. Bit of magic and versatility in several archetypes, but nothing that threatens any breach into T3 - just another functional martial on the pile.

Swashbuckler: T5
Swashbuckler is anti-synergistic garbage with a lot of MAD tax that barely functions even when opponents are not immune to crits and precision damage (which is a LOT of them) and while you have fencing grace. The class sucks at everything and cannot be relied on to solve problems at any level. It has little useful at all, just some deeds primarily the pretty nice to have opportune parry/riposte.
Archetypes make it dippable as hell though. frontload me those features baby! flying blade and inspired blade especially.

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## pabelfly

*VOTE UPDATE*

*Gunslinger*
Vasilidor, Rynjin, AnonymousPepper, Drelua  4
Thunder999  4.3
Exelsisxax  4.5
Gnaeus, Kurald Galain  5

_Average  4.35_



*Shifter*
Kurald Galain  4
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin, Thunder999, Exelsisxax  5

_Average  4.83_



*Shifter (Adaptive)*
Thunder999  3.5
Kurald Galain  4
Exelsisxax  4.5
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin  5

_Average  4.5_



*Shifter (Oozemorph)*
Thunder999  3.5
Exelsisxax  4.5
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin  5
Kurald Galain, Pabelfly  6

_Average  5_



*Slayer*
Vasilidor, Gnaeus  3.5
Rynjin, Thunder999, Exelsisxax  4
Kurald Galain  4.5

_Average  3.92_


*Swashbuckler*
Thunder999, Drelua  4.5
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin, Kurald Galain, Exelsisxax  5

_Average  4.86_

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## Kurald Galain

> *Shifter*


I've posted a separate rating for:




> Exception: Oozemorph archetype is *Tier 6* for being completely unplayable.

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## pabelfly

> I've posted a separate rating for:


Added and actually voted for T6 as well.

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## Kitsuneymg

Gunslingers are weird. Its like the old mystic ranger. They are tier 4 until 5th level, and then there is no reason to ever take gunslinger 6. Still, they do enough damage and, being full bab classes, can still hit many fliers even without touch ac. High op gunslingers will full attack with twf and do ludicrous amounts of damage that always lands. So I feel like they fit into tier 4. 

Slayers. Better fighters than rogues with almost as many skill points puts these on par with unchained rogue. But yes, playing a sanctified slayer is generally a better version of this exact class. Still they are decent at damage and have some skills and means of bypassing stat prerequisites on feats. But not as good as a ranger. Tier 4.25

Shifter is such a disappointment. Id rather play a 9 wisdom druid. I dont think I can fairly rate it, but I would call it a step up from unplayable, but you will constantly be disappointed with the class. So I guess tier 5. Reactive shifter is probably 4.5 then. Ooze shifter is unplayable. tier 6 is the worst we can give, or it would be worse. 

Swashbuckler is a dip for inspired blade based investigators. Play a virtuous bravo or daring champion instead. They do this classs theme better (if not necessarily a tier better). Tier 5.

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## AnonymousPepper

Genuinely don't understand the tier 5 Gunslinger votes, reading back. They're just... factually wrong. Gunslinger has out-of-combat capabilities (4+int with good class skills on top of being either wisdom of charisma based, and utility deeds), and, a far cry from being "just worse than a fighter" (more of a sidegrade really, Trench Fighter aside) or in the same spot as, derogatorily, monk (which is an odd thing to say considering PF did a lot to make Monk good with Qinggong and Unchained), they have the most consistent damage in the game by a long shot and can TWF (hardly a high-op play) for absurd amounts of it. Putting Slinger at a hard 5.0 is just straight-up evidence of unfamiliarity with the class and not knowing what you're talking about, or just not knowing how tiers work.

I'm not going to go so far as to advocate for disregarding the votes or anything, but it's as absurd as if someone were to try and claim Wizard was tier 3, and I'm a little miffed that they're going to skew the average as far as they are ngl.

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## exelsisxax

> Genuinely don't understand the tier 5 Gunslinger votes, reading back. They're just... factually wrong. Gunslinger has out-of-combat capabilities (4+int with good class skills on top of being either wisdom of charisma based, and utility deeds), and, a far cry from being "just worse than a fighter" (more of a sidegrade really, Trench Fighter aside) or in the same spot as, derogatorily, monk (which is an odd thing to say considering PF did a lot to make Monk good with Qinggong and Unchained), they have the most consistent damage in the game by a long shot and can TWF (hardly a high-op play) for absurd amounts of it. Putting Slinger at a hard 5.0 is just straight-up evidence of unfamiliarity with the class and not knowing what you're talking about, or just not knowing how tiers work.
> 
> I'm not going to go so far as to advocate for disregarding the votes or anything, but it's as absurd as if someone were to try and claim Wizard was tier 3, and I'm a little miffed that they're going to skew the average as far as they are ngl.


This has happened every thread. There's been utterly insane ones like T5 occultist (balanced out by oppositely insane T~2 occultist), people rating rogue higher than warpriest, magus higher than shaman, and samurai higher than inquisitor. It usually doesn't skew things too much in the end given sufficient votes but it's happening.

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## pabelfly

> I'm a little miffed that they're going to skew the average as far as they are ngl.


If the two people that voted 5 for Gunslinger instead voted for 4.5, Gunslinger would be rated at 4.23 instead of 4.35. I would say that 0.12 of a tier is not significant, and I would opine at that sort of level, player preference, and familiarity with specific rules is more relevant to player power than the class tier itself.

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## Thunder999

I'm glad someone else has mentioned this, are people using some strange and different tier defintions.

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## Bucky

To what extent does the availability of advanced firearms in a setting affect a Gunslinger's tier? Are some of us assuming they're generally available?

I'm also not sure why various raters are discounting higher level deeds. Rerolling failed saves is a pretty valuable defense, for example, as is Cheat Death. The capstone, by RAW, can even augment Cheat Death into one of the archetypal tier 1/2 abilities, immunity to death by HP damage.

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## Rynjin

> To what extent does the availability of advanced firearms in a setting affect a Gunslinger's tier? Are some of us assuming they're generally available?


Advanced Firearms are mostly a convenience rather than a straight power boost. My rating is regardless of what level of gun proliferation exists.

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## Thunder999

Advanced firearms don't really matter, they're certainly nice, the basic firearms can reach free action reload and adequate range, which is all that matters.

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## AnonymousPepper

Actually, advanced firearms make a huge difference. They hit touch in the first five range increments instead of just the first, without needing to expend grit. With early firearms hitting touch only within 20 feet or so for one-handers (and only 40 or so for two-handed guns), it means you gotta get awfully close to things you really would prefer not to get close to in order to use your main advantage - and fliers are just not an option to tag touch on. Then you look at the advanced firearms, and now you're in touch attack range at 100ft for shotguns (slugs, not scatter) and revolvers, and 400ft for rifles. 

Being within 20ft at all times is a tough ask, and advanced firearms completely fix it.

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## Kurald Galain

> Rerolling failed saves is a pretty valuable defense,


Yes it is, but rerolling one or two saves per day _at level fifteen_ is not a particularly big deal. Gunslinger grit just isn't very plentiful.




> The capstone, by RAW, can even augment Cheat Death


Let's see. The first hit that would kill you instead leaves you at 1 hp and 1 grit; the second one leaves you at 1 hp and 0 grit; and then the third hit kills you because you were at 1 hp. So a single full attack of a high-CR monster can still kill you. That's a decent combo but not particularly game-breaking or tier-raising.

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## Thunder999

Advanced Firearms are nice for the range, but most fights don't actually take place far enough away for it to really matter, particularly if you've got the Distance enchantment, combat is generally within short enough range that being a melee character is not only viable, but the default assumption for most classes.

You can get a lot more than 2 grit, it's just widom modifier, there's feats to boost it, you get it back whenever you kill or crit something.   

A reroll is nice, but only a moderately effective defensive boost (it'll save you from a poorly timed bad roll, but not from something that just has a high DC), and classes like Witch and Oracle have been handing out rerolls since 1st level (fortune hex, dual cursed oracle).

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## Drelua

> Let's see. The first hit that would kill you instead leaves you at 1 hp and 1 grit; the second one leaves you at 1 hp and 0 grit; and then the third hit kills you because you were at 1 hp. So a single full attack of a high-CR monster can still kill you. That's a decent combo but not particularly game-breaking or tier-raising.


That's not how I read that, it says "spend all of her remaining grit points (minimum 1)" which to me looks like a minimum on how much you spend, not how much you end up with. If the minimum 1 was how much grit you ended up with, it would be free if you only had 1 grit. Am I reading that wrong? 

Either way, not a gamebreaking ability, you might get killed less because of it, but you'll probably still get killed sometimes and at the level you get it a raise dead is pretty trivially cheap. Not that it should have much impact on tiering anyway, they get it at level 19 so it doesn't see much actual play. Even level 15 abilities won't come up much.

Edit: I'm dumb, missed the capstone. The only question then is, can you reduce the cost of an ability that doesn't have a fixed cost, only 'however much grit you currently have?' Probably yes, just wondering if that got FAQ'd at some point.

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## Bucky

The way I interpret the RAW of True Grit(Cheat Death) is...
The first lethal blow costs all but one of your grit, reduced by one from all your grit.
The non-reduced cost is now one grit, so with the reduction you can continue to Cheat Death as long as you have at least 1 grit point.
If you lose that last grit point, Cheat Death stops functioning.


A somewhat weaker version with stronger RAW assumptions uses the Run Like Hell Dare. Run Like Hell automatically gives Grit whenever you run out of Grit while 100+ feet from the nearest enemy, so you always have at least one grit for Cheat Death while out of combat or whenever you manage to position yourself far enough away from it.

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## AnonymousPepper

> Advanced Firearms are nice for the range, but most fights don't actually take place far enough away for it to really matter, particularly if you've got the Distance enchantment, combat is generally within short enough range that being a melee character is not only viable, but the default assumption for most classes.


You usually won't need 100ft of touch range (unless you're fighting intelligently played flyers), but a mere *20* is incredibly limiting. Distance is a tax that you could spend on other things.

Also, like, no, I don't think it's a great idea to force a pure ranged character into fighting at melee distance, Gun Tank excepted. You need to dip Fighter 4 or another class that counts as a fighter for you to not provoke on every shot by picking up Point Blank Master (or something that gives it to you as an explicit bonus feat), due to it requiring Weapon Specialization. Yet another reason Trench Fighter is god-tier compared to regular slinger, incidentally.

----------


## Kurald Galain

I'd like to add an archetype to the thread: *Avalancher* slayer replaces studied target for a damage bonus for... falling on people. Apart from being completely ridiculous, this is rarely applicable and much less effective than a regular slayer, so I'd call this tier 5.

And, here's a subtle one: *Witch Killer* slayer gets rage powers from a short list, most of which have Superstittion as a prerequisite. Superstition requires you to make a saving throw against being buffed by your allies, because of how superstitious you are. To a barbarian, this applies only while raging; but to a slayer it applies _all the time_. That's easy to miss but being partially immune to buff spells is a major downgrade, and another tier 5.

And speaking of ridiculous archetypes: *Dashing Thief* swashbuckler is themed around dazing people by kissing them, and this is neither magical nor mind-affecting. That one may actually be a tier-up for the swashy, except that it's very GM-dependent which creatures can be dazed with this ability.

Finally, the *Fey Shifter and Style Shifter* look like a decent upgrade to the shifter; the former for getting Blur plus Fly as a swift action, and for the long list of special abilities under the Fey Form spells; and the latter for bypassing prereqs on style feats, and using these on natural attacks and with some assorted bonuses. I'll tentatively put both at 3.5, and encourage all the T5 voters to check if they still consider these T5.




> Not that it should have much impact on tiering anyway, they get it at level 19 so it doesn't see much actual play.


Indeed, and the fact that it did not get FAQ'ed should tell you how much actual play this ability has seen  :Small Amused: 




> You can get a lot more than 2 grit, it's just widom modifier, there's feats to boost it, you get it back whenever you kill or crit something.


Rerolling a save costs _two points_. Since you have a ton of abilities that use grit and a narrow crit range, it looks like you just can't afford to reroll a lot of saves.

----------


## Rynjin

> Finally, the *Fey Shifter and Style Shifter* look like a decent upgrade to the shifter; the former for getting Blur plus Fly as a swift action, and for the long list of special abilities under the Fey Form spells; and the latter for bypassing prereqs on style feats, and using these on natural attacks and with some assorted bonuses. I'll tentatively put both at 3.5, and encourage all the T5 voters to check if they still consider these T5.


Feyform Shifter and Style Shifter are, yes, quite good. Fey Form is a contender for the best shapeshifting spell line; no joke. There are a couple of frankly RIDICULOUSLY powerful Fey forms that come online pretty early. I know one gives you like 8 natural Touch attacks that all deal Con damage?

----------


## Bucky

Several other classes benefit from high levels of firearm proliferation arguably more than a Gunslinger does. Slayer, for example, gains firearm proficiency with commonplace guns and enjoys the option of applying its sneak attacks or assassination attempts to touch AC.

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## Thunder999

> You usually won't need 100ft of touch range (unless you're fighting intelligently played flyers), but a mere *20* is incredibly limiting. Distance is a tax that you could spend on other things.
> 
> Also, like, no, I don't think it's a great idea to force a pure ranged character into fighting at melee distance, Gun Tank excepted. You need to dip Fighter 4 or another class that counts as a fighter for you to not provoke on every shot by picking up Point Blank Master (or something that gives it to you as an explicit bonus feat), due to it requiring Weapon Specialization. Yet another reason Trench Fighter is god-tier compared to regular slinger, incidentally.


Trench fighter is not a fair comparison, it's for a modern firearms guns everywhere setting, as opposed to the setting anyone actually plays in, that's why it doesn't actually have firearm proficiency, quick clear etc.

----------


## Bucky

Gunslinger gets to assume Emerging Guns plus, because it's literally unplayable with No Guns or Very Rare Guns. 

Trench Fighter's fluff is incompatible with a Very Rare Guns campaign, but AFAICT it's a legal choice even though it's not proficient* with its chosen type of firearm and will likely have trouble finding** a working gun and keeping supplied with ammunition.


* although Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) is a valid choice for their bonus feat
** Gunsmithing is _not_ a valid feat choice.

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## Maat Mons

I was going to do one post with ratings for all four classes, but Ive really been putting off looking into the Slayer and Swashbuckler, so Ill just post my ratings for Gunslinger and Shifter for now, in case I never get around to the other two.  

Gunslinger: Tier 4.4
I feel it can definitely carve out a niche for itself as a competent damage dealer, so Im putting it in Tier 4.  But I find the class overall very unimpressive, so Im putting it at the bottom of the Tier.  

Shifter: Tier 5.2
Not a lot to say here.  

Adaptive Shifter: 4.0
Im pretty sure Adaptive Shifter is somewhere in Tier 4.  Im not completely sure where, but Ill stick it in the middle for now.  I might come back and change this.

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## AnonymousPepper

> Trench fighter is not a fair comparison, it's for a modern firearms guns everywhere setting, as opposed to the setting anyone actually plays in, that's why it doesn't actually have firearm proficiency, quick clear etc.


I'd say it's a perfectly fair comparison - certainly from a mechanics perspective it's just one of many Slinger-lite archetypes available to numerous other classes, and the firearms proficiency can be solved easily enough with either an easy house rule, spending your first feat, picking up an extremely cheap (1500gp) cracked opalescent white prism ioun stone, a combination of the previous two utilizing retraining, or even variant multiclassing slinger (which gains you a couple deeds eventually too) (and you make up for the lost feats easily as a fighter chassis).

On a related note, similiarly, Slingers with their bonus feats do benefit quite well from Variant Multiclassing, assuming you can pick out the few gems among the general chaff that makes up the VMC system (iirc Cavalier and Inquisitor are standouts?). This is true of all classes that gain bonus feats through class features. I'm unironically running a Slinger16 in a Rise of the Runelords game with VMC Paladin and it's a blast.

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## Arkain

I think Swashbuckler actually annoys me. Not only did we get all the other hybrid classes in the same book, but what they seem to have wanted to do is fix the Duelist prestige class, giving us a class shoehorned into a very specific archetype/fighting style that it isn't even good at. Where fighting styles for Ranger (and, you know, Slayer) allow you to choose however you please, Swashbuckler wants to be the rapier fighter with at most a buckler. It's not explicitly a rapier, it could also be a variety of other things, but it seems that's the idea, given a somewhat more precise shape by the Inspired Blade archetype.
What gets to me is how there is the implication of going dexterity first with charisma as a secondary stat, yet there isn't much support for the whole dex bit, except for a variation of Weapon Finesse (arguably a worse one, at that) to start out. By third level we gain precision damage, but with the whole focus on critical hits to regain panache (and also to trigger a later feature), giving us barely enough damage to keep up with a plain old two-handed weapon that doesn't even apply to all those fancy crits seems a bit underwhelming. Unchained Rogue gains dex to damage by third level, yet Swashbuckler has to jump through all the usual hoops (Fencing Grace for example), because hey, it's only the fencing class, right? There's a dervish archetype (because of course there is) that addresses this very issue, ironically enough. The deeds are mostly underwhelming to boot, where even the Gunslinger gets some utility stuff - of dubious quality no doubt, but at least it's _something_. At least crit immunity isn't as common in Pathfinder as it was in 3.5, since it effectively blocks half your stuff. I find you can't be a proper face either, as that would eat up most of your skill points, leaving you with little to invest into the handsome daredevil idea, which derring-do tempts you to consider. The whole bit about Swashbuckler Finesse even tempts you into ignoring intelligence, because you got charisma in its place. If I'm not mistaken you can take Advanced Weapon Training, but that's about the best the class seems capable of doing. As others have said, it's a decent level 1 dip, but that seems to be the best part about it.

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## Bucky

> At least crit immunity isn't as common in Pathfinder as it was in 3.5, since it effectively blocks half your stuff.


AFAICT crit immunity is generally defined as "does not take any additional damage from critical hits", which doesn't stop Gunslingers and Swashbucklers from regaining grit and panache from confirming critical hits on crit-immune critters.

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## Kurald Galain

> AFAICT crit immunity is generally defined as "does not take any additional damage from critical hits"


Do you have a source on that? The phrasing I see is "Not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack."

That said, I'm more worried about gunslinger's narrow crit range. Swashy gets panache back all the time from crits, gunny has a hard time with that.

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## pabelfly

*VOTE UPDATE*

*Gunslinger*
Vasilidor, Rynjin, AnonymousPepper, Drelua, Kitsuneymg  4
Thunder999  4.3
Maat Mons  4.4
Exelsisxax  4.5
Gnaeus, Kurald Galain  5

_Average  4.32_



*Shifter*
Kurald Galain, Thunder999  4
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin, Exelsisxax, Kitsuneymg  5
Maat Mons  5.2

_Average  4.77_



*Shifter (Adaptive)*
Thunder999  3.5
Kurald Galain, Maat Mons  4
Exelsisxax, Kitsuneymg  4.5
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin  5

_Average  4.44_



*Shifter (Fey)*
Thunder999, Kurald Galain  3.5
Exelsisxax, Kitsuneymg  4.5
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin  5
Maat Mons  5.2

_Average  4.53_



*Shifter (Style)*
Thunder999, Kurald Galain  3.5
Exelsisxax, Kitsuneymg  4.5
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin  5
Maat Mons  5.2

_Average  4.53_



*Shifter (Oozemorph)*
Thunder999  4
Exelsisxax  4.5
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin  5
Maat Mons  5.2
Kurald Galain, Pabelfly, Kitsuneymg  6

_Average  5.19_



*Slayer*
Vasilidor, Gnaeus  3.5
Rynjin, Thunder999, Exelsisxax  4
Kitsuneymg  4.25
Kurald Galain  4.5

_Average  3.96_


*Slayer (Avalancher)*
Vasilidor, Gnaeus  3.5
Rynjin, Thunder999, Exelsisxax  4
Kitsuneymg  4.25
Kurald Galain  5

_Average  3.92_


*Slayer (Witch Killer)*
Vasilidor, Gnaeus  3.5
Rynjin, Thunder999, Exelsisxax  4
Kitsuneymg  4.25
Kurald Galain  5

_Average  3.92_


*Swashbuckler*
Thunder999, Drelua  4.5
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin, Kurald Galain, Exelsisxax, Kitsuneymg  5

_Average  4.88_

----------


## Kurald Galain

> Shifters can only access one form


They get five, actually. I don't think this is much of a drawback, because most shapeshifting characters I've seen just pick one favorite form and stick with that.
Shifter does have full BAB, and has no problem dealing "reasonable damage as martial characters" (in fact, that is the one thing they _can_ do, other than early-access flight, wild empathy, and pounce).

Maybe we should get some DPR math in here? It's fairly easy to hit damage benchmarks for a full-BAB class with multiple natural attacks, Power Attack, and pounce. Like, a shifter's full attack at level 5 deals 14+14+16 = 44 average damage, whereas a standard barbarian deals 23 from a 1d12 weapon + (7 str + 4 power attack) * 1.5.

So yeah, shifters are poorly designed and derivative, but they can shred in combat just fine without needing any combos or tricks.




> The Adaptive shifter archetype is a straight upgrade of regular shifter.


It loses quite a number of the baseline shifter's class features, so I'm not sure why you'd call this a "straight" upgrade. What it does is trade power for versatility. Adaptive shifter deals less damage than a regular shifter (due to losing shifter aspect and shifter claw when wild shaped) but gets a wider choice of shapes and reactive abilities.

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## pabelfly

> They get five, actually. I don't think this is much of a drawback, because most shapeshifting characters I've seen just pick one favorite form and stick with that.
> Shifter does have full BAB, and has no problem dealing "reasonable damage as martial characters" (in fact, that is the one thing they _can_ do, other than early-access flight, wild empathy, and pounce).
> 
> Maybe we should get some DPR math in here? It's fairly easy to hit damage benchmarks for a full-BAB class with multiple natural attacks, Power Attack, and pounce. Like, a shifter's full attack at level 5 deals 14+14+16 = 44 average damage, whereas a standard barbarian deals 23 from a 1d12 weapon + (7 str + 4 power attack) * 1.5.
> 
> So yeah, shifters are poorly designed and derivative, but they can shred in combat just fine without needing any combos or tricks.
> 
> 
> It does lose shifter aspect and several out-of-combat abilities, so it's not a _straight_ upgrade. The notable part here is that shifter aspect stacks with wild shape.


I'll work on fixing all of this later. Thanks for the feedback.

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## pabelfly

Shifter (4.9)

There are a lot of class variants that offer shapeshifting, as well as base classes like Hunter and Druid. Shifter happens to be the worst of these options. Shifters have much more limited access to forms, rather than Wildshape, and have a lot of trap aspects, making it difficult to build a Shifter well. While they have full BAB and a slightly bigger hit dice than, say, a Druid, they lose spellcasting and only have a few specific build styles that work, and will otherwise struggle to reasonably perform as martial characters. At higher levels, aspects you want for your build will really start to dry up, making you feel the need to multiclass for better class features rather than continue in-class. Shifter is a definitive T5 class.

Shifter (Adaptive Archetype) (4.44)
The Adaptive shifter archetype is a straight upgrade of regular shifter. It gains full wildshape and a mix of immediate and swift-action defensive and offensive boosts. If you absolutely insist on playing a Shifter, this archetype upgrades it from a class that struggles to fill it's role, to a narrowly-focused but somewhat respectable martial character.

I'll get onto the other classes later, too.

----------


## Maat Mons

A Shifter _eventually_ gets 5 aspects, but thats not until 20th level.  At 4th level, when they can first Wild Shape, its only 1.  While most Druids probably do have a go-to form, its still really nice to be able to pull other ones out.  Youd spend most of your time in whatevers the best damage-dealer available to you, but then you can pull out flying and burrowing when it solves a problem.  Or poison, grapple, pounce, breath weapons, whatever.  

Are you sure Adaptive Shifters have lower damage than regular Shifters?  I mean, an Adaptive Shifter could, for example turn into a Stegosaurus, for 4d6 + 1.5x Str damage, with 3-to-1 returns on Power Attack.  Then Shifters Fury lets you make iterative attacks with it.  Thats what, 70 DPR at level 8?  Whats a regular Shifter doing at that level?  46.5 for a Bear?

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## Kurald Galain

> I mean, an Adaptive Shifter could, for example turn into a Stegosaurus, for 4d6 + 1.5x Str damage, with 3-to-1 returns on Power Attack.  Then Shifters Fury lets you make iterative attacks with it.  Thats what, 70 DPR at level 8?


No, that's nowhere near 70 DPR.

Anyway, the point is that the shifter is a capable damage dealer, whether or not it takes the adaptive archetype. Like, 46.5 DPR is solid damage for a L8 melee class, and well above what, say, a chained monk would do.

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## Thunder999

> They get five, actually. I don't think this is much of a drawback, because most shapeshifting characters I've seen just pick one favorite form and stick with that.
> Shifter does have full BAB, and has no problem dealing "reasonable damage as martial characters" (in fact, that is the one thing they _can_ do, other than early-access flight, wild empathy, and pounce).
> 
> Maybe we should get some DPR math in here? It's fairly easy to hit damage benchmarks for a full-BAB class with multiple natural attacks, Power Attack, and pounce. Like, a shifter's full attack at level 5 deals 14+14+16 = 44 average damage, whereas a standard barbarian deals 23 from a 1d12 weapon + (7 str + 4 power attack) * 1.5.
> 
> So yeah, shifters are poorly designed and derivative, but they can shred in combat just fine without needing any combos or tricks.
> 
> 
> It loses quite a number of the baseline shifter's class features, so I'm not sure why you'd call this a "straight" upgrade. What it does is trade power for versatility. Adaptive shifter deals less damage than a regular shifter (due to losing shifter aspect and shifter claw when wild shaped) but gets a wider choice of shapes and reactive abilities.


Good point on the damage I'd like to change my shifter vote to tier 4.

Adaptive shifter has more versatility, and versatility is what moves a class higher than tier 4.

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## pabelfly

> Good point on the damage I'd like to change my shifter vote to tier 4.
> 
> Adaptive shifter has more versatility, and versatility is what moves a class higher than tier 4.


Okay, changed your vote.

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## pabelfly

Gunslinger and Swashbuckler written up. Comments always appreciated.

Gunslinger (4.32)

The Gunslinger is a class with one specific playstyle in mind  firing guns, if you couldnt guess  and relies on enemies having low touch AC, which, rather fortunately, is rather low for most enemies. This means it can deal competent and consistent damage, although its not great, let alone spectacular, without some serious optimization. It's average in terms of skills used out-of-combat, at least in comparison to other T4 classes and has few compelling class features at high levels, earning a low T4 rating.



Swashbuckler (4.96)

Swashbuckler comes with a lot of problems. First, the Swashbucklers fighting style is arguably the worst in the game and Swashbuckler does little to fix this. Swashbuckler requires a lot of different stats to be effective  Charisma powers Panache and can boost saves, while the class also requires DEX (AC, attack rolls and damage), CON (health) and WIS (will saves). You dont get anything other than basic support from the class out of combat either. A definitive Tier 5 class.



I'll write up Slayer later.

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## AnonymousPepper

I would *partially* disagree with slinger being particularly bad out of combat. Overall, yes. Relative to its tier? Above average. Class skill list is solid, and it's incentivized to have decent wisdom or charisma.

----------


## pabelfly

> I would *partially* disagree with slinger being particularly bad out of combat. Overall, yes. Relative to its tier? Above average. Class skill list is solid, and it's incentivized to have decent wisdom or charisma.


I think i can agree with you that Gunslinger is middling in terms of skill use, so I'll fix it.

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## Maat Mons

> No, that's nowhere near 70 DPR.
> 
> Anyway, the point is that the shifter is a capable damage dealer, whether or not it takes the adaptive archetype. Like, 46.5 DPR is solid damage for a L8 melee class, and well above what, say, a chained monk would do.




Eh?  

Str: 18 (roll) + 2 (race) +6 (wild shape) = 26 (+8 modifier)
4d6 + 1.5x Str = 26 average
Power Attack (BAB +8) = -3 attack / +9 damage (with weapons that add 1.5x Str)
35 average damage with Power Attack

Shifters Fury allows iterative attacks with a single natural weapon, at the cost of limiting your ability to use multiple natural weapons.  For Stegosaurus, which only has one natural weapon anyway, its a no-brainer.  At level 8, an Adaptive Shifter has BAB +8, so Shifters Fury gives you two attacks at +8/+3 (and then your other modifiers).  Two hits that each deal 35 average damage is 70 damage on average.  

Admittedly, the second tail-slap attack is at a -5, but youve still got a pretty good chance of landing it.  Did you want to give the second attack some % discount on its damage to account for the lower chance to hit?  



What does the damage of a baseline Shifter look like at other levels?  For the first 3, youve got 2 claws, each dealing 1d4 + 1x Str damage.  On a full attack, that could be slightly ahead of a greatsword, but its substantially behind if you have to move and attack.  At 4th level, you can get 3 natural attacks with Wild Shape, and Pounce for when you have to move.  Then at level 6, everyone gets another iterative attack.  Shifters Fury means the Shifter doesnt have to miss out on this iterative attack, but its less relative benefit because one hit with a Shifters natural weapon is generally going to deal less damage than one hit with a greatsword.  The Shifter still maintains a bit of a lead on a generic greatsword user, but nowhere near as big of a lead as it had during the classs glory levels of 4 and 5.  Deinonychus gets 5 attacks at level 8+, which puts that form back into the position of having an impressive damage lead.  

The Shifter suffers more from DR than other classes, since its damage is spread out over more attacks.  The class gains some help in overcoming DR, but there are some types that doesnt cover.  Natural attacks also are a little more difficult to get magical weapon abilities on.  Theres also some question of whether youre going to use a standard action at the start of combat to Wild Shape, or try to stay Wild Shaped all the time.  Doing the former basically robs you of a round of attacks each combat, but you might not have enough hours of Wild Shape per day to do the latter, and even if you do, not being able to speak can really cramp RP.  

Ill say that, at some levels, the Shifter can put out impressive damage.  At levels 1-3, 6, and 7, it looks to be pretty on par with other classes.  Figure in starting your full-attack dependence at level 1, maybe losing some full attacks to the standard action cost of Wild Shape, and sometimes suffering a greater impact from DR than other classes, and Id regard it as a poor performer at those levels.  



Nevertheless, I think I may have been too harsh on Shifter in my initial rating.  

Shifter: Tier 4.6
If someone can show me a way, using only 1st-party Pathfinder material, for Shifter to get Swift-action Wild Shape, I think I could maybe justify rating them somewhere in Tier 4.  

Adaptive Shifter: Tier 3.8
If someone comes up with that method of swift-action Wild Shape, I think I may bump this up to the top of Tier 4.

----------


## Rynjin

Adding potential average damage of strikes together is not how you calculate DPR.




> The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
> 
>     h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
>     d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
>     s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
>     t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
>     c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.


Percent to hit is sourced from a CR appropriate foe. Use the monster creation guidelines table to determine average AC for the level chosen.

Can't really do the math ATM (on phone, about to sleep) but I suspect that comes out closer to the ballpark of like 50 - 55 damage.

----------


## Maat Mons

If you're going to factor in critical hits, shouldn't there be an adjustment to reflect the proportion of monsters that are crit immune/resistant?  

If you want a true representation of expected damage against real monsters, wouldn't you also need an adjustment based on the prevalence of DR and how many types the character can overcome?

----------


## Kurald Galain

> in comparison to other T4 classes and has few compelling


I'd find this easier to parse if you add a ; or - before the 'and'.

Frankly, I'd say that out of combat, the Shifter is comparable to the Gunslinger; both have 4 skill points, gunny has a slightly better list, but shifty has class features like wild empathy and track and, well, shapeshifting.




> Percent to hit is sourced from a CR appropriate foe. Use the monster creation guidelines table to determine average AC for the level chosen.


It would actually be interesting to have a DPR comparison thread (at a midpoint like level 10), because the difference between tier 4 and 5 largely depends on how effective a class is in combat.




> If you want a true representation of expected damage against real monsters, wouldn't you also need an adjustment based on the prevalence of DR and how many types the character can overcome?


Maybe, if there are some big outliers? I'd say that most classes have an easy time dealing with cold iron and silver, and most have a hard time dealing with alignment DR.

But really, the biggest factor in DPR is how consistently a class can make a full attack; meaning ranged classes and anyone with pounce are substantially ahead of the rest of the pack. Off the top of my head, the most notable pouncing classes are U-Monk, Magus, Druid, and yes, Shifter.

For comparison, how reasonable does it sound to reduce DPR to 75% for any melee class that doesn't pounce?

----------


## Gnaeus

Not very. And in a way that specifically advantages shifter. You can't always pounce, and at low/mid levels it needs to pounce more than an equivalent weapon user. Maybe if you reduced all attacks after the first by 50% or 75% if they have pounce. More than that, shifter doesn't get pounce. One or a small number of aspects get pounce. You should probably assume that the low op shifter doesn't have it. Or at least not until mid-hugh level.

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## Kurald Galain

> If you're going to factor in critical hits, shouldn't there be an adjustment to reflect the proportion of monsters that are crit immune/resistant?  
> 
> If you want a true representation of expected damage against real monsters, wouldn't you also need an adjustment based on the prevalence of DR and how many types the character can overcome?


Looking at level 10 characters and CR-appropriate enemies, 0.9% of them are immune to crits, and 1.7% have DR with an unusual counter (good, adamantine, epic, or plain old dash), which is pretty much always DR 10. I'm not counting DR/cold iron or silver because you can expect to have a +3 weapon at that level.

...overall these aren't really significant enough to complicate the math for - as opposed to, say, fire resistance and fire immunity (which covers 32% of enemies at that level!)

----------


## Rynjin

More precisely, that's something you can easily account for in your calculations if you want to figure out whether the specific character you're running DPR calcs for is especially vulnerable to some niche resistance. Just reduce your average damage by the DR/ER number and/or change your crit rate to 0% and see how much it impacts the character.




> It would actually be interesting to have a DPR comparison thread (at a midpoint like level 10), because the difference between tier 4 and 5 largely depends on how effective a class is in combat.


I've always preferred levels 11 or 12 for midpoint calcs. It feels weird to advantage 3/4 BaB characters by making the cutoff one level before full BaB characters get a hefty DPR boost, while level 11 also doesn't fully DISadvantage 3/4 BaB characters because their damage dealing abilities typically scale at level 11 or 12 as well.

----------


## Rynjin

> Eh?
> 
> Str: 18 (roll) + 2 (race) +6 (wild shape) = 26 (+8 modifier)
> 4d6 + 1.5x Str = 26 average
> Power Attack (BAB +8) = -3 attack / +9 damage (with weapons that add 1.5x Str)
> 35 average damage with Power Attack
> 
> Shifters Fury allows iterative attacks with a single natural weapon, at the cost of limiting your ability to use multiple natural weapons. For Stegosaurus, which only has one natural weapon anyway, its a no-brainer. At level 8, an Adaptive Shifter has BAB +8, so Shifters Fury gives you two attacks at +8/+3 (and then your other modifiers). Two hits that each deal 35 average damage is 70 damage on average.
> 
> Admittedly, the second tail-slap attack is at a -5, but youve still got a pretty good chance of landing it. Did you want to give the second attack some % discount on its damage to account for the lower chance to hit?





> Adding potential average damage of strikes together is not how you calculate DPR.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
> 
> ...


I've got a bit of free time this morning so let's go over this real quick.

We're looking at, roughly, an attack roll of +17 (8 Str, 8 BaB, 3 weapon, 1 Misc., -3 Power Attack), and a damage of +38 average (assuming the +3 weapon again alongside the other factors you mentioned). Crit ratio of 5% (only on a 20).

You're attacking against AC of 21 for a CR 8 creature.

So, the first attack deals  .8(38)+.05*2*.8*38 = 33.44 and second deals .55(38)+.05*2*.55*38 = 22.99.

Or, 56.43 DPR. I was off by 1, damn.

----------


## Kurald Galain

> I've always preferred levels 11 or 12 for midpoint calcs. It feels weird to advantage 3/4 BaB characters by making the cutoff one level before full BaB characters get a hefty DPR boost, while level 11 also doesn't fully DISadvantage 3/4 BaB characters because their damage dealing abilities typically scale at level 11 or 12 as well.


I use level 5 and 10 (and rarely 15) myself as major milestones. More to the point, the Paizo forums have a rather lengthy thread covering level 10 core classes, which saves a lot of work if we can use that as a comparison point.

And regardless of cutoff point, there are always going to be some classes/builds that get a major ability _just one level_ later. Hmm, maybe at some point I'll work up a google spreadsheet that shows a full 1-20 graph.

----------


## AvatarVecna

Slayer: T4

Slayer is a Ranger who traded Favored Enemy very good when it applies, but super circumstantial) for Studied Target (good, and universally applicable), and then also traded spellcasting for rogue talents and half-speed SA progression. The loss of spellcasting is a definite hit to versatility, and while rogue talents make up for that, it still hurts. The slayer's focus, though, is that it's a far more reliable combatant, much greater than the sum of its parts. Slayer isn't quite as reliable as Fighter, but has skills and talents making up for that, so it feels like a pretty solid T4 to me.

Gunslinger: T4.2

Gunslinger is in a weird spot for me, because I love it, but I know it has problems. On the one hand, a first-level gunslinger can be an absolute pain to play, just because early firearms are frustrating to work around and you don't have the tools you need to mitigate the issues, and you've got limited utility (not too many skills, no real talent progression, few utility deeds, good Wis or Cha but probably not both and probably not great Int). On the other hand, once you get enough resources to work around those problems, gunslinger becomes hands-down one of the most dependable damage dealers in the game. I've done some late-game "who could even theoretically solo those CR 20+ creatures on the PFSRD" and the answer tends to be "some really overtuned caster combo...or a gunslinger 20 going all-out". Yes, early firearms have limited range, slow reload speed, high misfire, expensive ammunition, and the benefit of targeting touch doesn't make a huge difference in the really low levels. Yes, gunslinger doesn't really get going until they have 5 feats (Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim), alchemical cartridges, and at least a +1 distance weapon. But once you've got that stuff around level 6, you're basically set for life. Brain fully turned off, point and shoot, everything dies.

And like...it's easy to say that, if the gunslinger doesn't follow a very specific build, it takes them forever to get good. It's also easy to say that a gunslinger who doesn't build this way is shooting themselves in the foot. It's like not taking Natural Spell on a druid - yeah, of course it's not required, you don't have to take Precise Shot or Rapid Reload on your slowly-reloading ranged-combat specialist, but...really? Why? Why would you ever not do that? Except you're saying "why would you ever not do that" for all your early-game feats, and half your item expenditures. Gunslinger has a really high ceiling as far as DPR goes, but it also has a very low optimization floor. There's a very particular path you need to build gunslinger to make it not be painful forever, but that path is more or less "dont shoot yourself in the foot", and if you do, it's incredibly rewarding.

The main tipping point is lvl 7, I think. At that point, you've got 4 or 5 feats (depending on Human), which is enough for most/all the feats you really need. You've got enough money for a +1 distance weapon and enough alchemical cartridges to make 3 attacks a round. The difference between targeting normal and touch AC is significant enough that targeting touch is a major boon. And you've got the "Targeting" Deed, which gives you a touch of debuffing.

----------


## Thunder999

Martials don't generally have to worry about immunities beyond being prepared for swarms (buy a swarmbane clasp and wear it instead of your necklace as needed, it's cheap and honestly more effective than any spell, feat or other ability) and Fear/Mind affecting for an intimidate build in Pathfinder.  
Similarly DR is mostly not relevant, either you're melee and your +X weapon beats it or you're ranged and clustered shots exists.

This is part of why Pathfinder is much heavier on tier 4 than tier 5, it's rare that a creature can't be beaten by hitting or shooting it.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> To what extent does the availability of advanced firearms in a setting affect a Gunslinger's tier? Are some of us assuming they're generally available?
> 
> I'm also not sure why various raters are discounting higher level deeds. Rerolling failed saves is a pretty valuable defense, for example, as is Cheat Death. The capstone, by RAW, can even augment Cheat Death into one of the archetypal tier 1/2 abilities, immunity to death by HP damage.


Advanced Firearms take guns from thrown dagger range to "usable, but still way worse than a bow" range; youll still want distance enchanent usually. Their increased ammo capacity and cheaper reload is better on action economy, but you'll still want Rapid Reload (altho I think you don't need Alchemical cartridges to reach free action reload). It's not any better on misfire beyond not needing the cartridges.

It makes things slightly less painful for the first few levels, and does not significantly impact DPR.

----------


## Thunder999

Well there is one Advanced Firearm that makes a huge difference, the Thark Rifle with it's hilarious 1 mile range increment. Not that most games actually have them, seeing as they're from another planet entirely.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Well there is one Advanced Firearm that makes a huge difference, the Thark Rifle with it's hilarious 1 mile range increment. Not that most games actually have them, seeing as they're from another planet entirely.


+1 distance advanced rifle is 160 ft range increments, targeting touch. You can target touch out to 320 by spending a Grit. That is more than you'll ever really need, if we're being 100% honest. Having a 1 mile range increment instead would save you a few Grit every few sessions if your group takes every good opportunity to engage at extreme range. 20/100 is criplingly short, but 160/1600 is more than you'll ever need already (let along 5280/52800).

Edit: tldr the number is very different, but it doesnt change how you engage with most fights. Even as a ranged specialist, you're generally gonna be within 100 ft of whoever you're fighting, and it's very rare that you need more than a 1000 ft distance to shoot down something without giving it a chance to engage or escape.

----------


## Rynjin

> Well there is one Advanced Firearm that makes a huge difference, the Thark Rifle with it's hilarious 1 mile range increment. Not that most games actually have them, seeing as they're from another planet entirely.


Not just a different planet, but a different setting, which is not a problem solvable by in-character means (space travel is pretty trivial for high level characters). They're from the version of Mars/Barsoom from the John Carter of Mars stories. No more available by default than the Vampire Hunter D promo content.

----------


## pabelfly

*VOTE UPDATE*

*Gunslinger*
Vasilidor, Rynjin, AnonymousPepper, Drelua, Kitsuneymg  4
AvatarVecna  4.2
Thunder999  4.3
Maat Mons  4.4
Exelsisxax  4.5
Gnaeus, Kurald Galain  5

_Average  4.31_



*Shifter*
Kurald Galain, Thunder999  4
Maat Mons  4.6
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin, Exelsisxax, Kitsuneymg  5

_Average  4.76_



*Shifter (Adaptive)*
Thunder999  3.5
Maat Mons  3.8
Kurald Galain  4
Exelsisxax, Kitsuneymg  4.5
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin  5

_Average  4.41_



*Shifter (Fey)*
Thunder999, Kurald Galain  3.5
Exelsisxax, Kitsuneymg  4.5
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin  5
Maat Mons  5.2

_Average  4.53_



*Shifter (Style)*
Thunder999, Kurald Galain  3.5
Exelsisxax, Kitsuneymg  4.5
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin  5
Maat Mons  5.2

_Average  4.53_



*Shifter (Oozemorph)*
Thunder999  4
Exelsisxax  4.5
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin  5
Maat Mons  5.2
Kurald Galain, Pabelfly, Kitsuneymg  6

_Average  5.19_



*Slayer*
Vasilidor, Gnaeus  3.5
Maat Mons - 3.8
Rynjin, Thunder999, Exelsisxax, AvatarVecna  4
Kitsuneymg  4.25
Kurald Galain  4.5

_Average  3.95_


*Slayer (Avalancher)*
Vasilidor, Gnaeus  3.5
Rynjin, Thunder999, Exelsisxax, AvatarVecna  4
Kitsuneymg  4.25
Kurald Galain  5

_Average  4.03_


*Slayer (Witch Killer)*
Vasilidor, Gnaeus  3.5
Rynjin, Thunder999, Exelsisxax, AvatarVecna  4
Kitsuneymg  4.25
Kurald Galain  5

_Average  4.03_


*Swashbuckler*
Thunder999, Drelua  4.5
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin, Kurald Galain, Exelsisxax, Kitsuneymg  5

_Average  4.88_

----------


## AnonymousPepper

> +1 distance advanced rifle is 160 ft range increments, targeting touch. You can target touch out to 320 by spending a Grit. That is more than you'll ever really need, if we're being 100% honest. Having a 1 mile range increment instead would save you a few Grit every few sessions if your group takes every good opportunity to engage at extreme range. 20/100 is criplingly short, but 160/1600 is more than you'll ever need already (let along 5280/52800).
> 
> Edit: tldr the number is very different, but it doesnt change how you engage with most fights. Even as a ranged specialist, you're generally gonna be within 100 ft of whoever you're fighting, and it's very rare that you need more than a 1000 ft distance to shoot down something without giving it a chance to engage or escape.


Actually, "Advanced firearms resolve their attacks against touch AC when the target is within the first five range increments" per the SRD, not the first, so Distance is mostly superfluous unless you're fighting, say, a dragon that's keeping its distance and dumping long-range spells from altitude.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Actually, "Advanced firearms resolve their attacks against touch AC when the target is within the first five range increments" per the SRD, not the first, so Distance is mostly superfluous unless you're fighting, say, a dragon that's keeping its distance and dumping long-range spells from altitude.


You're correct on the 5 increments. That probably matters more than basically anything else they're doing. That said I don't think it'd affect the tier regardless of how you rate gunslinger. But it matters for sure.

----------


## pabelfly

Slayer (4.03)

Slayer is a mix of Ranger and Rogue, giving full BAB, slowed sneak attack progression and a bunch of bonus talents. Studied Target is Slayers version of Rangers Favored Enemy, except instead of applying bonuses to a single enemy type you might not encounter again, you can apply it to any enemy you meet now or in the future, which is much more effective. Slayer talents offer a wide variety of bonuses, including access to Ranger combat feats, Rogue talents, and options to boost various skill checks, making it an effective melee character. Slayer has a solid skill list and with a good amount of skill points each level, and there are talent options that can boost many skills further. All up, Slayer is a definitive T4 class.

----------


## Kurald Galain

> Slayer is a mix of Ranger and Rogue, giving full BAB, slowed sneak attack progression and a bunch of bonus talents. Studied Target is Slayers version of Rangers Favored Enemy, except instead of applying bonuses to one enemy type you may not encounter again, you can apply it to your choice of enemy, which is much more effective. Slayer talents offer a wide variety of bonuses, including access to Ranger combat feats, Rogue talents, and options to boost various skill checks, making it a somewhat effective melee character. Slayer has a solid skill list and with a good amount of skill points each level, and there are talent options that can boost many skills further. All up, Slayer is a definitive T4 class.


The _ranger's ability_ applies to your choice of enemy; it would be clearer to say that the slayer's applies _to every enemy you meet_. Also, I'd drop the word "somewhat" in "somewhat effective melee character".

----------


## pabelfly

> The _ranger's ability_ applies to your choice of enemy; it would be clearer to say that the slayer's applies _to every enemy you meet_. Also, I'd drop the word "somewhat" in "somewhat effective melee character".


Thanks for the edit suggestions, fixed.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

> Slayer (4.03)
> 
> Slayer is a mix of Ranger and Rogue, giving full BAB, slowed sneak attack progression and a bunch of bonus talents. Studied Target is Slayers version of Rangers Favored Enemy, except instead of applying bonuses to a single enemy type you might not encounter again, you can apply it to any enemy you meet *now or in th*, which is much more effective. Slayer talents offer a wide variety of bonuses, including access to Ranger combat feats, Rogue talents, and options to boost various skill checks, making it an effective melee character. Slayer has a solid skill list and with a good amount of skill points each level, and there are talent options that can boost many skills further. All up, Slayer is a definitive T4 class.


Phrase cuts off; was that supposed to be "meet now or in th*e future*"?

----------


## pabelfly

> Phrase cuts off; was that supposed to be "meet now or in th*e future*"?


Thanks, will fix.

----------


## Maat Mons

I'm glad I'm not the only one still posting in this thread after the new one is posted.  I think I'll rate Slayer Tier 3.8, not that that shifts the result much.  I still haven't completely nailed down my vote for Swashbuckler.

----------


## pabelfly

> I'm glad I'm not the only one still posting in this thread after the new one is posted.  I think I'll rate Slayer Tier 3.8, not that that shifts the result much.  I still haven't completely nailed down my vote for Swashbuckler.


Added your vote.

Don't worry about not posting straight away, I hope the threads stay open for a while. As far as I see it, more votes and more opinions make these threads more useful for anyone reading them.

----------


## Wildstag

I may have missed this in a preliminary thread, but do Favored Class Bonuses factor into the discussion at all (assuming human for all classes)? Like, for example, the Slayer's Human FCB adds up to 3 slayer talents, which isn't _particularly useful_, if only because of the lackluster choice support from later books. But then looking at the Shifter, all a Human Shifter has to look forward to is 6 more minutes of minor form per day (29 minutes at 20!). There's very little to gain, and HP/Skill-point is a far superior option. Gunslingers and Swashbucklers both get up to 5 more point-pool as they level, which can be useful, especially in the case of those deeds that require "at least 1 panache point" for passive benefits.

Another way to look at how bad the Shifter FCB is in the overall class is to look at the Shifter Aspect ability. At level 20, you would normally have 23 minutes of minor form. With FCB, you would have 29.

Given that you can use Slayer talents for feats, and additional feats are always slightly useful, does that meaningfully affect the discussion?

Compare all this to the Wizard FCB: add one spell from the wizard spell list to the wizard's spellbook. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the wizard can cast. I can't imagine that not affecting the comparison between Wizard and Cleric (+1/level  CL to overcome Outsider SR).

----------


## pabelfly

We tier with various optimization levels in mind, so favored class bonuses might sometimes be relevant.

----------


## Thunder999

FCB are relevant in the same way feats are really, if there's one that really changes the entire class then maybe bring it up, but for the most part they just make you slightly better at what you already.  
People have mentioned human FCB for Sorcerer contributing to a pretty large number of known spells, but we didn't tier it seperately or anything.  

The only one that's really been discussed is disagreement over how valuable the Shaman's ability to get off-list spells with FCB is.   

Can't think of much else that big, maybe Gathlain for Kineticist, though it's a rather strong/obscure race and I doubt it'll change many opinions on the class (it's very good though, enough they're the strongest kineticist race without question)

----------


## Kurald Galain

> I may have missed this in a preliminary thread, but do Favored Class Bonuses factor into the discussion at all


In almost all cases, the best use for FCB is an extra hit point or perhaps skill point. FCBs should be a factor in case of the (rare) exceptions to this, at least for races that are reasonably common. I don't see why you should assume that everyone is human, though.

----------


## Thunder999

Is taking Skill points or hp common? I'd usually rather have extra spells known, bonus feats, extra Arcana/discoveries/talents etc.

----------


## Kurald Galain

> Is taking Skill points or hp common? I'd usually rather have extra spells known, bonus feats, extra Arcana/discoveries/talents etc.


Well, I usually pick my race for a racial ability or feat (e.g. the dwarf's Steel Soul), or for flavor. And then if it does have extra (e.g.) spells known I'll take that, but it usually doesn't.

So yes to both: I'd rather have those things you mention, AND taking HP is still common because those things aren't available for every race or class.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Is taking Skill points or hp common? I'd usually rather have extra spells known, bonus feats, extra Arcana/discoveries/talents etc.


It's the default answer for a lot of race/class combos because a lot of FCBs are garbage. Human mostly avoids this by being so generic in flavor that they get the "pick a new spell thing" FCB option for most casters, and that's the best one, but a lot of the human ones suck too.

Brawler: Gain a +1 bonus to the brawlers CMD when resisting two combat maneuvers of the brawlers choice.

Cavalier: Add +1/4 to the cavaliers banner bonus.

Cleric: Add a +1 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome the spell resistance of outsiders.

Fighter: Add +1 to the Fighters CMD when resisting two combat maneuvers of the characters choice.

Hunter: Add 1 skill rank to the hunters animal companion. If the hunter replaces his animal companion, the new animal companion gains these bonus skill ranks.

Mesmerist: Increase the mesmerists towering ego bonus by 1/3 point (to a maximum increase of +2).

Paladin: Add +1 to the paladins energy resistance to one kind of energy (maximum +10).

Psychic: Add a +1/4 bonus to AC when flatfooted, to a maximum of what the psychics AC would be if not flat-footed.

Ranger: Add +1 hit point or +1 skill rank to the rangers animal companion. If the ranger ever replaces his companion, the new companion gains these bonus hit points or skill ranks.

Vigilante: Gain +1/2 on the Disguise bonus provided by seamless guise.

Vigilante is extra insulting. You could have +1/2 to a small subset of Disguise checks...or you could have +1 to all Disguise checks

----------


## pabelfly

Procedure Update: archetypes are now tiered separately from classes. Three votes are required for an archetype for it to make it to the master list, and the archetype needs to be more than half a tier stronger or weaker than the base class to be added to the list.

*VOTE UPDATE*

*Gunslinger*
Vasilidor, Rynjin, AnonymousPepper, Drelua, Kitsuneymg  4
AvatarVecna  4.2
Thunder999  4.3
Maat Mons  4.4
Exelsisxax  4.5
Gnaeus, Kurald Galain  5

_Average  4.31_



*Shifter*
Kurald Galain, Thunder999  4
AnonymousPepper  4.2
Maat Mons  4.6
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin, Exelsisxax, Kitsuneymg  5

_Average  4.64_



*Shifter (Adaptive)*
Thunder999, Kurald Galain  3.5
Maat Mons  3.8
Exelsisxax, Kitsuneymg  4.5

_Average  3.96_



*Shifter (Fey)*
Kurald Galain  3.5


*Shifter (Style)*
Kurald Galain  3.5


*Shifter (Oozemorph)*
Exelsisxax  4.5
Kurald Galain, Pabelfly, Kitsuneymg  6

_Average  5.63_



*Slayer*
Vasilidor, Gnaeus  3.5
Maat Mons - 3.8
Rynjin, Thunder999, Exelsisxax, AvatarVecna  4
Kitsuneymg  4.25
Kurald Galain  4.5

_Average  3.95_


*Slayer (Avalancher)*
Kurald Galain  5



*Slayer (Witch Killer)*
Kurald Galain  5



*Swashbuckler*
Thunder999, Drelua  4.5
Vasilidor, Gnaeus, Rynjin, Kurald Galain, Exelsisxax, Kitsuneymg  5

_Average  4.88_



Here's a writeup for Oozemorph. Let me know if I can fix anything for this writeup.

Shifter (Oozemorph) (5.63)

Oozemorph Shifter changes a lot of features about the Shifter base class, so little of the comments about Shifter apply to Oozemorph Shifter. 

So what's good about Oozemorph? You're permanently in Ooze form, so you gain a lot of nice immunities. Compression lets you squeeze through any hole, which might have some use getting into locked rooms or, I don't know, introducing yourself to the local rodent population. I don't know, I'm struggling to find positives here. Now, problems - you won't be able to stay in humanoid form for long (except at high level), and once you lose humanoid form, you'll be unable to turn back for eight hours. And when you're not in humanoid form, you can't use or hold items, wear equipment, cast spells, or even speak. You can attack, sure, but entering combat without any equipment is not a good idea in a system where gear is expected. This is a solid contender for the worst archetype in the game.

----------


## Kurald Galain

Right. Please put me down for 3.5 on Adaptive Shifter.

Also, based on DPR math earlier in the thread, I think you should remove the sentence that they "struggle to reasonably perform as martial characters", from the shifter's summary.

And I hope we can get some more people to weigh in on Fey Shifter and Style Shifter.

----------


## pabelfly

> Right. Please put me down for 3.5 on Adaptive Shifter.
> 
> Also, based on DPR math earlier in the thread, I think you should remove the sentence that they "struggle to reasonably perform as martial characters", from the shifter's summary.
> 
> And I hope we can get some more people to weigh in on Fey Shifter and Style Shifter.


Okay, I'll fix these up. Thanks for the suggestions.

"There are a lot of class variants that offer shapeshifting, as well as base classes like Hunter and Druid. Shifter happens to be the worst of these options. Shifters have much more limited access to forms, rather than Wildshape, and have a lot of trap aspects, making it difficult to build a Shifter well. While they have full BAB and a slightly bigger hit dice than, say, a Druid, they lose spellcasting and only a few specific aspects and forms will reasonably perform as martial characters. At higher levels, aspects you want for your build will really start to dry up, making you feel the need to multiclass for better class features rather than continue in-class. Shifter is a definitive T5 class.

The Adaptive Shifter is tiered separate in Tier 4, for being a straight upgrade of Shifter. It gains several immediate and swift-action boosts and full Wildshape. Further discussion of this archetype can be found in the Tier 4 class section.

Oozemorph Shifter is tiered separately for being a terrible downgrade of an already weak class. Few of the comments regarding base Shifter are relevant for it, and it's covered in more detail in the Tier 6 section."

----------


## Maat Mons

I never cast a vote for Oozemorph.  I'm pretty sure what you have there is just an artifact from before I changed my rating of Shifter as a whole.

----------


## pabelfly

> I never cast a vote for Oozemorph.  I'm pretty sure what you have there is just an artifact from before I changed my rating of Shifter as a whole.


Okay, fixed. Thanks for the correction.

----------


## AnonymousPepper

Actually. I *can* contribute somewhat to the Shifter, now that I think about it. 

I had a player play one in a party with a Kensai Magus, a Sadist Vitalist, and a Hallowed Necromancer Wizard, in a Carrion Crown game I briefly ran. He was a relatively experienced player, the Magus was new to Pathfinder, the Vitalist was a veteran but playing a deliberately wacky build for funsies, and the Wizard was my ForeverDM(TM) so he knew what he was doing but we also only made it to about level 6 or so before we broke up so he never hit the true wizard power level (and, remember, the early wizard power options like Color Spray don't work on undead).

The class was a decent frontliner and the player was able to at least keep up with the others up to the end point of the game, but many of the features - what exactly escapes me, it was a good bit ago - seemed dysfunctional or otherwise didn't quite work well together and required a lot of houseruling on my end to make things fit or read in a way that was remotely beneficial.

He was pretty solid out of combat, though I have a distinct suspicion that in that respect he would have fallen off very, very quickly had we gone much later. In the end, he was a giant slab of hit points that had a strong power spike when he hit 4th and otherwise was... kind of meh. Ultimately he rebuilt into a Mystic and did much be-oh wait Mystic is the single least effective or at least the clunkiest to use of the DSP initiators _whoooooops_

Poor guy.

I'd give it a 4.2 or so. It's not a well designed class, but it's also not actively bad in most respects and it _can_ fill the role of a beatstick reasonably well (albeit I'd rather have a fighter in that role any day) and correct aspect selection can let you fill a few decent out of combat niches.

----------


## pabelfly

> I'd give it a 4.2 or so.


Added your vote.

----------


## Kurald Galain

> The Adaptive Shifter is tiered separate in Tier 4, for being a straight upgrade of Shifter.


It loses quite a number of the baseline shifter's class features, so I'm not sure why you'd call this a "straight" upgrade.

----------


## Bucky

> Swashbuckler (4.96)
> 
> Swashbuckler comes with a lot of problems. First, the Swashbucklers fighting style is arguably the worst in the game and Swashbuckler does little to fix this. Swashbuckler requires a lot of different stats to be effective  Charisma powers Panache and can boost saves, while the class also requires DEX (AC, attack rolls and damage), CON (health) and WIS (will saves). You dont get anything other than basic support from the class out of combat either. A definitive Tier 5 class.


I think these specific criticisms are off-base as far as combat power goes.

"the Swashbucklers fighting style is arguably the worst in the game and Swashbuckler does little to fix this"
Swashbuckler looks to have three or four available combat styles - one-handed with buckler, throwing, TWF and maybe mounted charging. The basic rapier-and-buckler requires no particular feat or item investment and benefits from Precise Strike/Hilt Hammer. Throwing is feat-intensive but also benefits from Precise Strike/Hilt Hammer. TWF is slightly feat intensive and does not benefit from Precise Strike, and has a worse Parry, but is better at crit-fishing for Panache. Mounted charging requires some other resources and depends on favorable GM RAI allowing the Lance to count as one-handed. I suspect that optimal play is to switch between TWF and Precise Strike depending on one's Panache reserves and the target's overall danger and vulnerability to precision damage.

But suppose the Swashbuckler doesn't skill Ride or take any feats, and only uses the basic style. She has less offensive power than a 2HF greatsword Warrior at level 1-2. Precise Strike catches her up vs. precision-vulnerable enemies at level 4. She pulls ahead quickly after level 5, even against enemies that require Hilt Hammer. The class features do fully compensate for the relative weakness of that fighting style, or else Swashbucklers would also 2HF.

The real combat weaknesses are poor flat-footed AC (mitigated somewhat by good initiative), a total lack of class-feature-compatible reach weapons (barring mounted lances) or long-ranged options (outside 30 feet), and nothing beyond Acrobatics, Ride or magic items for in-combat mobility.

"Requires a lot of different stats to be effective" - If merely being a save stat for a weak save is enough to make it required, this applies to so much of the cast as to be vacuous as a criticism. Those poor Sorcerers, they don't get all good saves like a Monk or CHA to all saves like the Paladin. Or even CHA to a few saves per day like, err, Swashbucklers.

Lack of Panache scaling is superficially a problem. Swashbuckler levels grant more uses for Panache, but not a larger Panache pool. Except they do, one Panache per two levels, if one assumes the bonus feats go to Extra Panache unless there's a compelling reason for another feat. This applies to Gunslinger too.

The lack of out-of-combat problem solving remains a major flaw. But just because she can fight with one hand literally tied behind her back doesn't mean she must do so, therefore it shouldn't be held against her.

----------


## pabelfly

> I think these specific criticisms are off-base as far as combat power goes.
> 
> "the Swashbucklers fighting style is arguably the worst in the game and Swashbuckler does little to fix this"
> Swashbuckler looks to have three or four available combat styles - one-handed with buckler, throwing, TWF and maybe mounted charging. The basic rapier-and-buckler requires no particular feat or item investment and benefits from Precise Strike/Hilt Hammer. Throwing is feat-intensive but also benefits from Precise Strike/Hilt Hammer. TWF is slightly feat intensive and does not benefit from Precise Strike, and has a worse Parry, but is better at crit-fishing for Panache. Mounted charging requires some other resources and depends on favorable GM RAI allowing the Lance to count as one-handed. I suspect that optimal play is to switch between TWF and Precise Strike depending on one's Panache reserves and the target's overall danger and vulnerability to precision damage. 
> 
> But suppose the Swashbuckler doesn't skill Ride or take any feats, and only uses the basic style. She has less offensive power than a 2HF greatsword Warrior at level 1-2. Precise Strike catches her up vs. precision-vulnerable enemies at level 4. She pulls ahead quickly after level 5, even against enemies that require Hilt Hammer. The class features do fully compensate for the relative weakness of that fighting style, or else Swashbucklers would also 2HF.
> 
> The real combat weaknesses are poor flat-footed AC (mitigated somewhat by good initiative), a total lack of class-feature-compatible reach weapons (barring mounted lances) or long-ranged options (outside 30 feet), and nothing beyond Acrobatics, Ride or magic items for in-combat mobility.
> 
> ...


Okay, tidied this up a little. Thanks for the suggestions.

Swashbuckler (4.96)

The Swashbuckler is based around light weapon attacks, and while there are a few playstyles based around this (TWF, thrown weapons, and light weapon with a buckler) these are typically feat-intensive, and the class gets few free feats to make any of these work well. Second, Swashbuckler requires a lot of different stats to be effective  Charisma powers Panache and can boost saves, while the class also requires DEX (AC, attack rolls and damage) and CON (health), which gives it a fair case of being MAD. You also dont get to do much outside of combat other than use a few skills, since you're going to require a few skills for combat too. A definitive Tier 5 class.

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## Bucky

> She has less offensive power than a 2HF greatsword Warrior at level 1-2. Precise Strike catches her up vs. precision-vulnerable enemies at level 4. She pulls ahead quickly after level 5, even against enemies that require Hilt Hammer. The class features do fully compensate for the relative weakness of that fighting style, or else Swashbucklers would also 2HF.


I made a math error here. The Swashbuckler either spends the bonus feat on something that boosts DPR, or only pulls even at level 5. The class features do fully compensate for the weaker style, but only when the Swashbuckler has at least the basic version of all of them but the capstone.

Four levels is past the point where a weak start should hit them in the tiers. However, the DPR calculation ignores everything that requires spending Panache and the other fighting styles, and the bonus feat.

(correction based on another error: assumes that Panache gained from crits on rolls of 19 or 20 is used to double Precise Strike damage to compensate for the fact that strength bonuses double on a crit but precision damage doesn't.)

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