# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 > 3rd Ed Ability score arrays

## redking

Officially we have -

Standard 11,11,11,10,10,10
Nonelite 13,12,11,10,9,8
Elite 15,14,13,12,10,8

And some people use these homebrew the following arrays -
Heroic 17,16,15,13,12,10
Legendary 19,17,16,15,14,12

If you wanted the PCs not to roll dice, but rather use an array, which array would you allow the PCs to use?

I was thinking of a "PC elite array" along these lines: 15,14,13,12,11,10.

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## Maat Mons

I'd go for an array where each element is meaningfully different.  10 and 11 are the same, in terms of modifier.  So are 12 and 13, 14 and 15, et cetera.  So go in increments of 2.  

Also, I'd try to stick within the range of values that can be generated by traditional dice rolling methods and traditional point buy.  So nothing greater than 18, and nothing smaller than 8.  

There is only one possibility that satisfies both those criteria: 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8.

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## martixy

21, 18, 16, 15, 15, 10

Don't wanna punish MAD, but wanna have 1 weakness. You can put ASIs towards odd for a more rounded character or focus on boosting 1 stat super high, without getting punished for choosing either.

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## Metastachydium

> I'd go for an array where each element is meaningfully different.  10 and 11 are the same, in terms of modifier.  So are 12 and 13, 14 and 15, et cetera.


In modifier, yes. In potential, no. ASIs come as +1s.

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## Jay R

In my current game, I gave the players a choice.  They could take either of:
18, 15, 14, 13, 12, 9, or
17, 16, 14, 13, 11, 10.
These are also the arrays that most of my elite NPCs will be built on.

That allowed the players to choose to take an 18, but it would cost them a stat below 10.

I did not tell them that in their first session, they would receive +1 on each stat.  So the arrays would really be
19, 16, 15, 14, 13, 10   or   18, 17, 15, 14, 12, 11

Whichever choice each player took, after the increase, each PC would have ability bonuses of +4, +3, +2, +2, +1, and +0.

This may seem high to you.  I've only played 3.5 under 2 DMs, and they both give PCs 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13.  That seemed like too much to me, even the first time I played.  [But I started with original D&D in 1975, rolling 3d6 in order.]

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## Crake

I just use the regular elite array for my NPCs (assuming theyre worthy of it, otherwise they get the standard array) and give my PCs 35 point buy rather than forcing them into an array.

Ive found 35 point buy encourages players to go with normal 32 point buy, but to invest 3 more points into a 16 to make it a 17. This gives players something to look forward to at level 4 when they can bump that 17 into an 18

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## Fiery Diamond

Published arrays and point buy seem way too low to me and always have.  I prefer: 18-16-14-12-10-8 or 18-16-15-14-13-11.  I like the latter better, but I didn't come up with it until after using the former a couple times.

Of course, I also prefer gestalt with one side being a caster, so there's that.  And since I prefer PF 1e to 3.5, I get a +2 as a human, which I usually put in the 16, giving me two 18s, one mental and one physical.

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## AnonJr

After some back-and-forth over very poor dice rolls creating imbalanced campaigns, my sister found a suggested array that we used for some time:
16 (+3)14 (+2)13 (+1)12 (+1)11 (+0)9 (-1)

That gave you one really good stat, two nice ones, two ok ones, and the inevitable flaw before racial adjustments. Most of the MAD folks weren't too far off, and it gave some good places to figure where the stat boost would go that provided a real, tangible benefit.

We've since been using a 33-point buy for the last few campaigns since we'd never done it before and like the customization a lot better. (We also let you buy off a 1 or 2 racial LA at 2 points per level. Works ok at those low levels, doesn't really scale up if you start template stacking...)

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## FauxKnee

It isn't appropriate for every group, but when I run games I just have the players pick their own stats. I've never had anyone take more than one 18, and I've had a few players take a score in the 5-7 range.

We have healthy communication and in the big picture their ability scores don't impact game balance much. (I'm always evaluating their capabilities when planning arcs/encounters.) Why not let players design their characters exactly to their vision?

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## Fiery Diamond

> It isn't appropriate for every group, but when I run games I just have the players pick their own stats. I've never had anyone take more than one 18, and I've had a few players take a score in the 5-7 range.
> 
> We have healthy communication and in the big picture their ability scores don't impact game balance much. (I'm always evaluating their capabilities when planning arcs/encounters.) Why not let players design their characters exactly to their vision?


I don't really see a problem with this either, though I'm pretty surprised you've never had someone take more than one 18.  Have you ever run a gestalt game?  I'd be shocked if you have and you still hadn't had anyone take more than one 18.  On the other hand, I'm also the kind of person who wants a power fantasy when playing D&D, so...  yeah.

The most recent game I've played in is a 1-player (plus DM) game [PF 1e] where my character is a Barbarian//Sorcerer with a homebrewed bloodline that, among other things, allows him to wield weapons without discharging held spells and to channel touch spells through his weapon attacks (similar to a Magus).  Started (after racial adjustment of +2 to Str) with Str 18, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 18.  Then, we used the Automatic Bonus Progression rules at double-pace (getting benefits as a character of x2 actual level).  That's my kind of power level - I'm a low-optimization player, so I like the bigger numbers built in.  Especially since I'm a "hit 'em real hard or blast 'em real good" player, too.

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## sreservoir

> Published arrays and point buy seem way too low to me and always have.  I prefer: 18-16-14-12-10-8 or 18-16-15-14-13-11.  I like the latter better, but I didn't come up with it until after using the former a couple times.


The elite array is pretty close to the medians of sixths for the 4d6b3 distribution: 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 16; fudge the rounding the other way on 11 and 16. It's a pretty accurate representation of what we're told the system is designed to expect!

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## False God

I don't like odd numbers, so frankly none of these.

But my home array is closest to Heroic.

Because it gives me a higher ceiling to screw up challenges and less chance of murdering the party on accident.

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## Cruiser1

> There is only one possibility that satisfies both those criteria: 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8.


Stats of 18,16,14,12,10,8 are often called "Champion Array". That's a 38 point buy from straight 8's (in which increasing to 15 or 16 costs 2 points, and increasing to 17 or 18 costs 3). I like the properties of this array too, have used it in actual games.

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## King of Nowhere

i don't use arrays, i prefer rolling. but keep on rolling until you get good stats.
so, the end result is somewhere close to heroic. it's also what i use for npc bosses

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## Crake

> After some back-and-forth over very poor dice rolls creating imbalanced campaigns, my sister found a suggested array that we used for some time:
> 16 (+3)14 (+12)13 (+2)12 (+1)11 (+1)9 (-1)
> 
> That gave you one really good stat, two nice ones, two ok ones, and the inevitable flaw before racial adjustments. Most of the MAD folks weren't too far off, and it gave some good places to figure where the stat boost would go that provided a real, tangible benefit.
> 
> We've since been using a 33-point buy for the last few campaigns since we'd never done it before and like the customization a lot better. (We also let you buy off a 1 or 2 racial LA at 2 points per level. Works ok at those low levels, doesn't really scale up if you start template stacking...)


Uhh, just in case you didn't realise, 11 is +0, and 13 is +1.

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## lylsyly

Use to have 8+1d4+1d6 rolled 8 times add 1 point to any odd scores and drop the lowest 2

Now non gestalt is 18,16,14,12,10,8 and gestalt (what we usually play) 18,18,16,16,14,14

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## Rebel7284

> Uhh, just in case you didn't realise, 11 is +0, and 13 is +1.


14 is not (+12) either, so I assume the modifiers were quickly added while posting and mistakes happened.... many mistakes.


With that said, I don't really like arrays.  Having the same numbers for everyone, just arranged differently, seems... boring?  Not to mention that different classes often have different stat distribution needs.  Rolling can be fun, especially if you roll first and then find out you actually have enough stats to play something very MAD!  But outside of that, point buy always seemed fair and effective.  I especially enjoy higher point buy amounts.

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## vasilidor

84 points to distribute between 6 scores is one thing I have done.
18,17,16,15,14,13 is another.
24d6 split amongst attributes after rolling so each score is between 6 and 18 is another. Yes, all dice could be used.
Straight 18s is my next plan for the next Pathfinder game I start.

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## Eldonauran

I'm fine with using the Elite score as a player or a DM, provided the intention is to stay within the scope of a game where the CR is not only relevant, but somewhat accurate.  Otherwise, I'm good with whatever fits the game.  I get more enjoyment from finding a way to win rather than brute forcing it with pure power.

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## martixy

Ey, guess I still hold the spot for top array.

Everybody else seems dogmatically stuck to the 18 mark.

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## AnonJr

> Uhh, just in case you didn't realise, 11 is +0, and 13 is +1.





> 14 is not (+12) either, so I assume the modifiers were quickly added while posting and mistakes happened.... many mistakes.


Yea ... typing fast and tired isn't smart.  :Small Red Face: 





> With that said, I don't really like arrays.  Having the same numbers for everyone, just arranged differently, seems... boring?  Not to mention that different classes often have different stat distribution needs.  Rolling can be fun, especially if you roll first and then find out you actually have enough stats to play something very MAD!  But outside of that, point buy always seemed fair and effective.  I especially enjoy higher point buy amounts.


We've had enough games where the differences in rolls, even with some generous re-rolls, was just too wide. Arrays - and now point-buy - have alleviated that a lot. But every table is different, so whatever works.  :Small Smile:

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## Jay R

> I'd go for an array where each element is meaningfully different.  10 and 11 are the same, in terms of modifier.  So are 12 and 13, 14 and 15, et cetera.


This is not (quite) true.  Oh, it's true at the start.  But somebody with an ability score of 11 who takes a single point of ability damage due to a poison or spell has not been affected.  Somebody with a score of 10 who loses that same point *is* affected.  That extra odd point on an ability score is a small amount of insurance; it helps you half the time when you take ability damage.

Furthermore, somebody with a score of 15 can get a benefit from a Tome or Manual +1 or any other way to gain a single ability point. The person with a score of 14 can't.  

And of course, if that odd point is on the ability that you will increase every fourth levels, then it improves that character from 4th-7th levels, 12-15th levels, 20th-23rd levels, etc.  He is better because of that odd point half the time.

It doesn't affect the PC all the time, but in games where poisons and ability-draining spells are used, that extra odd point is still  meaningfully different fairly often.

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## Crake

> This is not (quite) true.  Oh, it's true at the start.  But somebody with an ability score of 11 who takes a single point of ability damage due to a poison or spell has not been affected.  Somebody with a score of 10 who loses that same point *is* affected.  That extra odd point on an ability score is a small amount of insurance; it helps you half the time when you take ability damage.
> 
> Furthermore, somebody with a score of 15 can get a benefit from a Tome or Manual +1 or any other way to gain a single ability point. The person with a score of 14 can't.  
> 
> And of course, if that odd point is on the ability that you will increase every fourth levels, then it improves that character from 4th-7th levels, 12-15th levels, 20th-23rd levels, etc.  He is better because of that odd point half the time.
> 
> It doesn't affect the PC all the time, but in games where poisons and ability-draining spells are used, that extra odd point is still  meaningfully different fairly often.


worth noting that in pathfinder specifically, ability score damage was changed such that you lose a modifier for every 2 points of damage you take, regardless of your actual ability score, so having a 13 or a 12 is the same there, except that you can take an extra point of damage before the score reaches 0.

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## Tusen

Honestly the one I use the most is elite array, however it depends on the group. Elite array or 25pb groups were common at the now defunct website that I used to do PuGs on. These days I play with people I know prior (from online or in person) so I'll suggest elite array for them and then go from there if they don't like that, or use it as a 'backup' to rolling (4d6k3 or 8x3d6 assign 6, can take elite array if your stats are just horrid across the board)

I can imagine using a selection of arrays to try to balance class tiers if you have a group with wildly varying power levels who you don't trust to accommodate each other though. Nonelite, Elite, Heroic, Legendary for tiers 3/4/5/6 kind of thing.

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## Darg

I like the variety rolling gives between characters. It adds a style of role-playing and mechanical interaction that makes each character generally unique. I prefer it when things just aren't so cookie cutter. If you've ever played many different characters it forces you to think about how to make them more effective or shore up weaknesses. 

One factor I like about odd ability scores is that feats have requirements that land on odd numbers. It makes you think about how and when you want or need to improve your score. This falls to the wayside outside of core, but it is there.

If I DM I do allow players the option between their rolls or the elite array.

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