# Forum > Comics > Webcomics >  Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

## Typewriter

Discussion of the Goblins Comic. This is the place. Time yet again to reset to page 1.

Previous threads:

Goblins Thread 0
Goblins I
Goblins II
GoblIIIns
Goblins IV: Live Free or Die Horribly
Goblins V: It's Hard-Kore!
Goblins VI: How Many Fingers Am I Holding Up?
Goblins VII: I'm TOTALLY Gonna Pee On This Thing!
Goblins VIII: This Thread Contains An Unexpected Variable
Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!
Goblins X: Orcs fall, everybody dies (horribly)
Goblins XI: There ARE Goblins In This Comic, Right?
Goblins XII: Your Home for Magical Limb Replacement
Goblins XIII: Now With Goblins!
Goblins XIV: Clerical Omission
Goblins XV: Klik Here
Goblins XVI: Corrupted to the Kore
Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc


* Current informations on Axe Of Prissan wielders:*
*Spoiler*
Show

*Wielders of the Axe of Prissan*
_Starting with the most recent_

*Big Ears* - Male Goblin Paladin. One of the protagonists of the story and current wielder of the axe.
*Saral Caine** - Evil Male Half Stone Giant/Half Human. Ally of Dellyn *Goblinslayer* and minor antagonist in the Brassmoon arc.
*Dri Featherknife* - Female Human Rogue/Paladin. She was killed by Goblinslayer and Saral Caine after uncovering their plot to frame the sherrif of Brassmoon for murder.
*Flejj Hillmover* - Male Dwarf. He fought Kore twice and survived. His family was not so lucky. He shaved his beard in shame.

----

*Felsibeth "Soot" Blackbringer* - Young Female Human Paladin. Youngest to ever wield the axe.
*Kelstride Blackbringer* - Male Human Paladin. Soot's Father. Former chimney sweep. Killed by a Kobold stampede.
*Drose* - Genderless Golem Paladin. Drose passed the Axe to Kelstride Blackbringer to prevent the demon imprisoned within from taking control of his body.
*Eled of the East* - "Fat, over confident" Paladin. Was given the axe by Myorg.
*Mryorg** - Evil Male Ogre. Beat (but did not kill) Vilias Red in combat and took the Axe from her. Used it to cause great suffering before eventually giving it to Elad purely to make the demon contained within suffer after coming so close to freedom.
*Vilias Red** - Female Human Rogue. Was friends with Tivoth Fastfoot and took the axe after Tivoth died in battle with the intention of giving it to another Paladin.
*Tivoth Fastfoot* - Male Paladin. Encountered Vilias Red looting a corpse and assumed she had murdered the man. Once he realized she was innocent, the two became friends and traveled together.

----

*Kevitch Gritland** - Evil Male... formerly... Human maybe... Fighter/Wizard. Horribly mutated by an evil swamp. Killed Eldrock Cloudcry and claimed the axe as his own.
*Eldrock Cloudcry* - Known in name only.

-----

*Cal* - Male Gnome Paladin. Egotistic gambler. Had a powerful, icy magic effect.
*Jelbin Crae* - Male Human Paladin. Gave Cal the Axe willingly. Nothing else is known.

-----

*Kore* - Male Dwarf Paladin. Nigh-unstoppable genocide machine against all things that could conceivably be evil, including children. Currently has a speech impediment caused by the axe and rope. Chained and screaming souls as an IME. Created the axe, but may not have wielded it.


_The Axe of Prissan is the second Prissan, a counterpart to the Hammer of Prissan which traps a great Good and is wielded by Evil. The third Prissan contains the damned._

*Confirmed non-Paladin



* Individual Magic Effects (IME's)*
*Spoiler*
Show

One of the more frequent sources of confusion is what people are talking about when we're referring to IME's. Here is the comic's explaination of what they are. And now you know.


* Shield of Wonder Effects List*
*Spoiler*
Show

Shield of Wonder page 1*Spoiler*
Show



Shield of Wonder page 2*Spoiler*
Show



Shield of Wonder page 3*Spoiler*
Show



Shield of Wonder page 4*Spoiler*
Show



Shield of Wonder page 5*Spoiler*
Show

http://imageshack.us/a/img850/9456/lvg8.jpg

Shield of Wonder page 6*Spoiler*
Show

http://imageshack.us/a/img15/9746/e2qr.jpg

Shield of Wonder page 7*Spoiler*
Show



Shield of Wonder page 8*Spoiler*
Show



Shield of Wonder page 9*Spoiler*
Show

----------


## Traab

Marking for the future. Also, im still trying to hold out hope that this is some sort of an attempt at a lesson rather than an angel trolling vorpal.

----------


## Kantaki

> Marking for the future. Also, im still trying to hold out hope that this is some sort of an attempt at a lesson rather than an angel trolling vorpal.


I mean, maybe she's just the cruel sort and enjoys torturing little mortals when she doesn't need them happy for dinner.

----------


## Keltest

Tag, this thread is it.

Also, the fact that Vorpal in the present doesnt seem to loathe and/or fear her, i suspect that she isnt acting out of malice.

----------


## Vinyadan

> I mean, maybe she's just the cruel sort and enjoys torturing little mortals when she doesn't need them happy for dinner.


I think that that "I'm not hungry right now" line was very effective at reframing her priorities.

----------


## Dragonus45

Yea I get he the feeling she has a specific job she _needs_ to do here regardless of personal feelings. _lawful_ good here might be the correct emphasis.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

ahh that new-thread smell

----------


## sihnfahl

> Yea I get he the feeling she has a specific job she _needs_ to do here regardless of personal feelings. _lawful_ good here might be the correct emphasis.


Which seems to be 'stress the mortal into revealing their true self, which can only be seen in a life or death situation.'




> ahh that new-thread smell


Fresh from the bag!

----------


## Vinyadan

I found a video from 2017 where Phil Lamarr wears a Goblins t-shirt at an event with the Futurama cast

----------


## Ibrinar

*Spoiler*
Show

Huh so it really was that simple.

----------


## tomaO2

Eighteen days since the last one. 

That makes update number 11 of the speedy schedule!

I honestly expected there would be some sort of a message, or lesson, in this. Not so much though. It's a real anti climax resolution.  

Well, assuming the challenge stays the same, that gives everyone(edit: except Complains) a get out of jail free card.

----------


## Radar

> Eighteen days since the last one. 
> 
> That makes update number 11 of the speedy schedule!
> 
> I honestly expected there would be some sort of a message, or lesson, in this. Not so much though. It's a real anti climax resolution.  
> 
> Well, assuming the challenge stays the same, that gives everyone a get out of jail free card.


Not quite as
*Spoiler*
Show

they only had that one potion and I do not know how long the duration of that potion is. Also, Complains clearly did not have the mustache with him.


And there is a lesson in this:
*Spoiler*
Show

Maxim 31: Only cheaters prosper.

----------


## Vinyadan

Honestly, much better this way. Rules vs Rules, all in-universe. If you want a moral, there's "Being yourself can be dangerous... but not necessarily lethal, if you are equipped for it." 

Maybe it could have used one more page of Fumbles struggling to get out, or some sort of dialogue with him hanging on to the edges of the lower portal (a chance to explain us a bit more about these sheets), up to, "oh, wait", remembering the mustache, and flying upwards.

----------


## Quild

Wow, I really expected more from this encounter.
*Spoiler*
Show


How isn't Fumbles pissed against her?

----------


## Cygnia

This might...
*Spoiler*
Show

...be the reason why Complains cuts her horn off then --not for anything demonic in him, but how she treated Vorpal

----------


## Lvl 2 Expert

Now that I think about it, couldn't he just "teller" his way out of that situation? Getting a question wrong seems like an easy thing to foresee. Although of course it could be different on weird planes vs angelic beings.

----------


## Gez

> This might...
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> ...be the reason why Complains cuts her horn off then --not for anything demonic in him, but how she treated Vorpal


How would he know?

Unless she told him, and if she did it would be to rile him up.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Now that I think about it, couldn't he just "teller" his way out of that situation? Getting a question wrong seems like an easy thing to foresee. Although of course it could be different on weird planes vs angelic beings.


pretty sure it's been established that he can't just call on prophecies at-will. and the ones he does get are vauge at best.

----------


## Kantaki

> How would he know?
> 
> Unless she told him, and if she did it would be to rile him up.


Maybe she will.
She seems to use this job as a opportunity to entertain herself.
Telling Complains how she dropped Vorpal into a Pit of agonising Death- omitting his last second save -to see his reaction seems entirely in character.

----------


## Keltest

> Maybe she will.
> She seems to use this job as a opportunity to entertain herself.
> Telling Complains how she dropped Vorpal into a Pit of agonising Death- omitting his last second save -to see his reaction seems entirely in character.


But he knew Vorpal was ok, because he saw him come back.

----------


## tomaO2

Elli posted new varient art from a book 2 panel. Bottom is original art, top is remaster.

https://twitter.com/EllipsisGoblins/...31085528494080

I didn't realize there was such a difference in the goblins until it was thrown in my face like this. My initial impression is that I don't like the new art as much. The ears are so utterly massive now, Big Ears' ears don't look so huge anymore when compared to the old ones. Then there is the faces. The faces are completely smoothed out of their former roughness, they look less interesting. Big Ears, especially, looks really anime to me, kinda weirding me out. The smooth faces make them feel like naive kids, rather than adults (adult goblins, which is basically the same age as kids, but still adults). Not sure why the new version of Complains has such a scrawny body either. Vorpal is also been thinned out, I prefer how his eyes were drawn though.

I also prefer the serious looks all the characters (minus Vorpal) are giving in the first, rather than the more varied expressions in the new one. 

Thaco is my favourite of the new versions, don't mind his redesign as much, for some reason. Vorpal is okay. Ears, I don't care for at all.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

the ears do seem almost comically big yea, particularly Complains'. comparing it with more recent comics, the ears for Thaco and vorpal do seem to add up, Complains' don't seem to be THAT big though, i unno.

the body shape changes are probably just a result of the characters being more defined over time. As the comic continued, Elli may have subconsciously decided that it made more sense, or looked better for Vorpal and Complains to be thin and lean rather then bulky. that or they just kind of accidently ended up that way.


looks weird to see Complains without the demon features though :P

----------


## NontheistCleric

I do like that Complains looks more focused in the new one, but then, that's somewhat counteracted by the fact that Thaco seems to be looking out of the panel and down for no apparent reason and Chief and Big Ears look so much more vacant.

Also, yes, the new ears really do feel a bit overlarge now.

----------


## Traab

Yeah its not terrible, but now their ears look more like montrails from star wars aliens. Meh, updated art always takes time to adjust to. If this is what they are meant to look like animated i fully get it. Every wrinkle is that much more effort to draw frame by frame. So simplifying the faces to an extent makes sense.

----------


## Vinyadan

This is a bit more than just new art... the expressions are very different. The big critique I have for the new one is that there isn't a homogeneous scene, as every character is posing with different intents, which looks very artificial (especially Ears, the only one staring at me). The old one was more unified. And Vorpal looked both creepy and crazy in the old one, while now he is far more relaxed (although the character has changed a lot, so it could be a reflection of how he is now). There's something odd in the field they're standing in, too, and I have problems placing the new ones in space.

The huge steps forward I see concern the bulbous eyebrows, which look far more 3d now, and the ears, which now have actual readable shapes. In general, the modern faces are hugely better, although I agree that they look a few years younger. The necks are more structured, and the characters have a few different kinds of torso.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> There's something odd in the field they're standing in, too, and I have problems placing the new ones in space.


just noticed this myself. if you look behind them where the grassline meets the trees, there's a bit of a curve to the grass in the new image, like they're standing in a valley, while the original image just had flat grass. could be the problem there.

----------


## Lvl 2 Expert

> just noticed this myself. if you look behind them where the grassline meets the trees, there's a bit of a curve to the grass in the new image, like they're standing in a valley, while the original image just had flat grass. could be the problem there.


And while valleys exist, I agree it feels weird here. I think there might be several small factors in this. One is that the field doesn't seem to curve up towards the actual hills, which seems weird. Another small one might be that Ears in particular seems to lean inwards a bit. Overall it feels like this was shot with the fisheye lens of a Gopro camera or something, rather than this actually being a curved landscape.

I also agree with the people that prefer the expressions of the old picture. It portrays what's going on in the scene: they're moving out, determined and hungry for adventure. The new one is more like the poster for an ensemble movie, meant to portray the personalities of the characters. But that comes at the cost of not selling the scene as well.

I also also find myself agreeing on the criticism of the shapes of their bodies and their ears. Not all of the early work was drawn super well, but this particular image was. And here it is contrasted with what feels like not even what the characters look like now but more like an experiment on how to move further into that direction. There's something out of proportion about them.

So yeah, between those three things, I prefer the old image. It was very well done the first time around: nailed the scene, nailed the execution of the chosen style, didn't screw up the background. It was a tough act to improve on, and this isn't doing it.

Then again, the reason I have to type out every argument in long form does mean that these criticisms are tiny. The new version isn't much worse, it just definitely isn't any better to me.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> The new one is more like the poster for an ensemble movie, meant to portray the personalities of the characters. But that comes at the cost of not selling the scene as well.


to be fair, i'm pretty sure that's what this is. this isn't a replacement for the scene in the comic, it's promotional material for the animated series.

----------


## BaronOfHell

As I remember it, the scene where they stand in the peaceful long grass, deciding to become adventures, is what got me hooked on this comic.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

not out yet, but looks like we do get to see Complains' encounter as well.

----------


## Vinyadan

OK, odd question: did Google delist the Goblins Animated Campaign? I suddenly can't find it through the search engine. Does this happen to anyone else?

----------


## Draconi Redfir

try looking up "goblins animated Indiegogo", first result for me.

----------


## Vinyadan

Now it's working for me too. Odd, maybe Google was updating its listings. Well, better this way.

----------


## mythmonster2

And now we get to see Complains's side!

----------


## Traab

Im seriously expecting him to get dropped just because he wont shut UP about how she smells to him. Also, I think he is going to go all rules lawyer over this. "COULD" I be a good chief? Of course! I "could" also be a terrible one. Or an average one.  Or above and below average as well for other options. These are some really dumb and pointless questions.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Im seriously expecting him to get dropped just because he wont shut UP about how she smells to him. Also, I think he is going to go all rules lawyer over this. "COULD" I be a good chief? Of course! I "could" also be a terrible one. Or an average one.  Or above and below average as well for other options. These are some really dumb and pointless questions.


Hes going to rip her horn off. And deservingly so.

----------


## Wildstag

Definitely seems like this segment serves to critique their own writing, especially with the "seems a bit contrived but whatever" line. In a way, it's almost too meta.

Also, that's a terrible question. A better one would be a "Why" question: "Why would you be a beneficial chief for your clan?" It automatically requires him to be introspective in a way that can't just be answered with a simple "yes" or "no".

----------


## Avaris

Ok, thats an awful question, from the meta context of being on the character sheet. Being on the character sheet implied to me that it is a simple, stat related thing, but outside the normal knowledge of the characters: what is your strength score?. Or something straightforward like a name. But this is much more involved, as are all the other things mentioned as being on Nanes sheet. Its a background thing, sure, and could be written on a character sheet, but it doesnt feel like the right sort of question for the set up.

Maybe thats the point. Maybe the next comic will show Names saying THATS on my character sheet? But I kind of doubt it. Perhaps Im being unfair, but the very clunky dialogue lately doesnt exactly give me high hopes for a well written strip. Im mostly still following out of bored curiosity and habit at this stage.

----------


## Vinyadan

Yup, it definitely sounds like a note in the backstory. "He could make a fine chief." I've got to say, Fumbles should try out summoning some character sheets, like Young and Beautiful did at the beginning.

Unrelated, but, to me, Complains always felt like the real leader in the narrative.

----------


## Anteros

> Unrelated, but, to me, Complains always felt like the real leader in the narrative.



I'm not so sure he feels like the leader.  The main character?  Yes.  Leader?  Not so much.  He basically follows along and does whatever everyone else wants, and has to be regularly reigned in by his pops.

----------


## tomaO2

Seventeen days since the last one. It's going a little bit slower for the past couple updates but an average of once every 2-3 weeks is a pace I honestly never expected to see again in my lifetime. 

That makes update number 12 of the speedy schedule!

I'll add my agreement to the others. It's an obvious question. I would suppose the answer would be something like "I could but my father would be better" and the angel disagrees saying Complains would be a great chief, and they argue and it turns into a fight, where he gets her horn, which doesn't stink like the rest of her, I guess. She pins him down, makes him chief, all done. 

I wonder if Elli is stretching this out due to the positive feedback of the character. I was kinda thinking only one of the goblins would be getting the future stuff, but it's looking like all of them might be doing the full question/answer? 

I'm finding this arc a little dull.

----------


## Traab

I dont think its being stretched out because elli thinks its going great so much as I think its meant to be a power up excuse before they go to hell. they need some levels if they want to even survive long enough to enter the place. And there has to be a justification for it beyond them just all going up a level. So a nice "rp" scene to get some exp and in complains case, get a weapon that would actually help in hell as well as a level. Im pretty sure level 5 is still kinda low for the setting but better than 4 I guess :p.

----------


## Radar

I guess the question about being a chief is because Complains was destined _to bear the jeweled crown of Aquilonia upon a troubled brow._ *cough* Sorry, wrong story. But there has to be something about future destiny in the character sheet. Even goblin's names often signify their unavoidable fate (Dies Horribly, Saves a Fox etc.) so the tellers have to take that information from somewhere.

----------


## Anteros

> I guess the question about being a chief is because Complains was destined _to bear the jeweled crown of Aquilonia upon a troubled brow._ *cough* Sorry, wrong story. But there has to be something about future destiny in the character sheet. Even goblin's names often signify their unavoidable fate (Dies Horribly, Saves a Fox etc.) so the tellers have to take that information from somewhere.


Is that a Conan reference?  It's been a long time since I've read Conan but it feels like a Conan reference for some reason.  

She seemed pretty surprised she didn't manage to kill Fumbles, so if she can see the future it isn't perfect.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Is that a Conan reference?  It's been a long time since I've read Conan but it feels like a Conan reference for some reason.


Conan is indeed king of Aquilonia in a couple stories (including the very first Conan story ever) and I think this exact sentence is from the movies who keep teasing but never showing his eventual ascension to the throne.

----------


## Radar

> Is that a Conan reference?  It's been a long time since I've read Conan but it feels like a Conan reference for some reason.  
> 
> She seemed pretty surprised she didn't manage to kill Fumbles, so if she can see the future it isn't perfect.


Well, let me tell you of the days of high adventure.

----------


## Anteros

> Well, let me tell you of the days of high adventure.


Man, that's even older than I am.  And that's saying something.   :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Fyraltari

> Man, that's even older than I am.  And that's saying something.


That you're under 38?

----------


## Anteros

> That you're under 38?


Which is old.

----------


## Lord Torath

> Which is old.


The implication being that the rest of us already have both feet in the grave, and are just waiting for someone to throw dirt in on top of us.   :Small Amused:

----------


## Dragonus45

> The implication being that the rest of us already have both feet in the grave, and are just waiting for someone to throw dirt in on top of us.


Well yes, I _am_ thirty now after all. That's basically just being dead with a delay right?

----------


## Radar

> (...) That's basically just being dead with a delay right?


Here you just described the general idea of living.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

at thirty i think you've got another good ten years or so before that applies. with the wonders of medical science, thirty is the new twenty and whatnot.


after that though, expect to spend two-thirds of your natural lifespan as an elder. the downside to the wonders of medical science. Forty is not the new Thirty. Forty is still forty.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Here you just described the general idea of living.


Life is lag!  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Radar

> Life is lag!


I approve.  :Small Smile: 

On that subject there is a movie called "Life as a Fatal Sexually Transmitted Disease". It is a bit obscure I guess, but a really good and thoughtful one. And with a witty title obviously.

----------


## Gez

> Ok, thats an awful question, from the meta context of being on the character sheet. Being on the character sheet implied to me that it is a simple, stat related thing, but outside the normal knowledge of the characters: what is your strength score?. Or something straightforward like a name. But this is much more involved, as are all the other things mentioned as being on Nanes sheet. Its a background thing, sure, and could be written on a character sheet, but it doesnt feel like the right sort of question for the set up.
> 
> Maybe thats the point. Maybe the next comic will show Names saying THATS on my character sheet? But I kind of doubt it. Perhaps Im being unfair, but the very clunky dialogue lately doesnt exactly give me high hopes for a well written strip. Im mostly still following out of bored curiosity and habit at this stage.


How to tell if a D&D character would be a good chief, based on their character sheet:

Look at Wisdom, Charisma, and Intelligence stats. If all three are above 10, the answer is probably. If at least two are above 14, the answer is definitely.

----------


## Kornaki

> How to tell if a D&D character would be a good chief, based on their character sheet:
> 
> Look at Wisdom, Charisma, and Intelligence stats. If all three are above 10, the answer is probably. If at least two are above 14, the answer is definitely.


Holy cripes you don't want to take a quick look at the alignment first?

----------


## Vinyadan

> Holy cripes you don't want to take a quick look at the alignment first?


Hahaha, that's great -- the Angel is going to go "no you cannot be a _good_ chief, because you are NE"

I mean, I'm not sure he is, but Thac0 did hint to him going down that road.

EDIT: this isn't a description of an update, just a joke that doesn't seem too unlikely.

----------


## Keltest

Isnt she going to put him through the ceremony "to make a point" though? My guess is that he bitterly answers that its a stupid question because he's not a goblin anymore and cant be chief no matter how good a job he could have done at it.

----------


## Kish

> Hahaha, that's great -- the Angel is going to go "no you cannot be a _good_ chief, because you are NE"
> 
> I mean, I'm not sure he is, but Thac0 did hint to him going down that road.
> 
> EDIT: this isn't a description of an update, just a joke that doesn't seem too unlikely.


If Ellipsis has the bad taste to say Complains' alignment is actively evil now because his response to "the heavily armed mass murdering brigand who killed most of our friends for profit and has never indicated seeing anything wrong with doing so is not at this moment attacking us" was "I'll kill him before he resumes being dangerous," I will...continue to be pissed off about that. Which I already am. So she has nothing to lose by writing it, really.

Edit: But the question is "beneficial chief," not "good chief."



> How to tell if a D&D character would be a good chief, based on their character sheet:
> 
> Look at Wisdom, Charisma, and Intelligence stats. If all three are above 10, the answer is probably. If at least two are above 14, the answer is definitely.


What if two are above 14, but the other one's 3? *Spoiler: Example*
Show

----------


## Anteros

> If Ellipsis has the bad taste to say Complains' alignment is actively evil now because his response to "the heavily armed mass murdering brigand who killed most of our friends for profit and has never indicated seeing anything wrong with doing so is not at this moment attacking us" was "I'll kill him before he resumes being dangerous," I will...continue to be pissed off about that. Which I already am. So she has nothing to lose by writing it, really.
> 
> Edit: But the question is "beneficial chief," not "good chief."
> 
> What if two are above 14, but the other one's 3? *Spoiler: Example*
> Show


I'm gonna take the bold stance that murdering someone who just helped you while they cry about the death of their best friend is actually an evil act, but you do you.

----------


## Traab

> I'm gonna take the bold stance that murdering someone who just helped you while they cry about the death of their best friend is actually an evil act, but you do you.


Im going to take the even bolder stance that ignoring half the context to make your stance doesnt make said stance right. He only helped them because he would have died along with the goblins. Before kore showed up, minmax was ready to go right back to gobbo murder.

----------


## Anteros

Calling it murder is a bit disingenuous.  Even Thaco says it was a war camp that Minmax attacked.  A war camp holding information about a coming goblin ruler named the white terror who will bring "pain and death to all non goblins". (who might I remind you actually exists).  So I'm gonna go ahead and call attacking them justified.  If you don't want to get attacked, maybe don't set up warcamps and tout plans to exterminate all life.

Even if it wasn't.  Even if Minmax was an evil monster like Goblinslayer, if someone is laying on the ground crying, and you murder them in cold blood, that's Evil.  Period.  Full stop.  End of debate.

----------


## SaintRidley

> Even if it wasn't.  Even if Minmax was an evil monster like Goblinslayer, if someone is laying on the ground crying, and you murder them in cold blood, that's Evil.  Period.  Full stop.  End of debate.






> Calling it murder is a bit disingenuous.


So is it disingenous or not to call it murder?

----------


## Ibrinar

I am not sure if you are implying that the gobbo murder qualifies for the first part or if you misunderstood and thought both refer to the same killing?

----------


## Vinyadan

Good catch on beneficial vs good.

About sparing MM, as a scene, there are two aspects I noticed and that never convinced me. 

One is MM just giving up on fighting and treating the goblins as a neutral, or even friendly, party. Now, with a normal person, one would think that this is a result of MM being utterly crushed by Forgath's demise and, as a result, completely out of himself. However, what we know from MM's past is that he is absurdly adaptable. So he immediately switches to treating the goblins as his own group. 
...The goblins he wanted to kill, because "they want to destroy the world"?! (maybe the switch is explained in-comic, but I don't remember it).

Second, I don't think that not killing him was a believable option for Complains. I mean, for the act to be evil, as Thaco says, you need some good reason not to do it, right? From Complains' point of view, Minmax is a merciless marauder who attacked his home without warning and killed almost all of his comrades; given the very loose hierarchy at the camp (there's a chief and a teller, but no subchiefs) and the presence of a blind man and others considered too old to fight, those comrades weren't bound by being soldiers, but as part of a small community in which everyone knew each other from birth. 
It also wasn't war. MM isn't a soldier. Soldiers can forgive each other, because they were acting under orders from the big guys above; war was forced on them. But MM did what he did out of his own volition. So I don't agree with Thaco's rationalisation of the past.
And, when Chief explained what had happened at the camp, he also said that Forgath wasn't to go unpunished. Forgath, who stopped and healed Thaco. MM? He didn't. What punishment was he to receive? And remember that even Forgath's position had been rolled back to "kill the goblins" by MM, and he attacked them on the bridge. So any grace points he had gained were lost, which also reflected on MM: what isn't a menace now will probably turn into one later.
And Complains also had sworn a death oath on MM.

----------


## Morgaln

I will go a step further; not only did Minmax attack the goblin camp of his own volition, he didn't do it out of any altruistic motives. He did it for personal gain, both physical in form of loot and spiritual through xp. In addition, he was outright gleeful about killing goblins. Whether you call that murder or not, this is certainly evil behavior.

----------


## tomaO2

Minmax genuinely believed that all goblins are evil. He did it to eliminate a threat to the area. Just like Forgath did. The only difference is that Forgath was confronted with the idea that maybe these goblins were not, in fact, evil. Saying that Minmax had no altruistic reasons to attack the goblin village is utter nonsense.

The real example of Minmax's morality was when he attacked Goblin Slayer for torturing Kin every day. He also thought she was a monster, but he would kill her, not torture her. There is a line that he doesn't cross. He attacked a goblin war camp, not a village, and I have no reason to believe he would go around killing goblin women and children either, even if he did thing that doing so would take care of a potential threat from. Minmax isn't Kore.

----------


## Kish

I do appreciate Anteros sticking the "what Minmax does to goblins, however horrific from any rational perspective, can't be murder" and "a goblin killing Minmax is automatically murder" brain-twisting assertions in the same post; it saves me from thinking, even for a second, that it could possibly be a productive use of my time to argue with him.

Edited to add to toma02, though: Minmax aggressively didn't care about the goblins doing anything that made them evil. Forgath brought up the subject and Minmax outright said "what's gotten into you?" XP, XP, XP, loot, loot, loot.

Getting back on subject, aggravated as I was by the earlier strip I brought up, I don't think Ellipsis is going to take it to "Complains actually has an evil alignment."

----------


## Keltest

Technically, none of them can. Paladins aren't allowed to willingly associate with beings they know to be evil long term except for the purposes of redeeming them or combating their evil, and Big Ears is doing neither to any other member of the party.

----------


## Gez

> Edit: But the question is "beneficial chief," not "good chief."
> 
> What if two are above 14, but the other one's 3? *Spoiler: Example*
> Show


It depends on where the 3 is:

If you're lacking in Charisma, find a figurehead that can serve as your face.
If you're lacking in Intelligence, find an advisor that can help you understand the issues.
If you're lacking in Wisdom, you're not a good enough judge of character to find someone to help you.

----------


## tomaO2

> Edited to add to toma02, though: Minmax aggressively didn't care about the goblins doing anything that made them evil. Forgath brought up the subject and Minmax outright said "what's gotten into you?" XP, XP, XP, loot, loot, loot.


Why don't you read the bit where Forgath finds the scroll that talks about the white terror.


_"They steal babies in the night. They attack villages. They are evil."_
https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/03122006

Minmax, from the bottom of his heart, truly believed that the goblins were evil, as did Forgath until the Teller confronted him, as would most D&D players, because, back in the day, when this comic started, it was a bit of a novel subversion to have the "evil" race being good (these days, the whole gray morality of races is everywhere, to the point where it's actually refreshing to see evil races that are actually evil again). Minmax was also willing to change his mind after being forced to stay in their company less than a day. 

Sure, Minmax wanted XP and loot, but he wouldn't have done it if he had any qualms about the morality of his actions. Whether it was a good/evil act is up to debate, but there isn't a scrap of evidence that he would have done this if he had thought it was an immoral act. If Minmax was that type of person, he would have been fine with Goblin Slayer torturing kin every day in order to hunt down the goblins.

----------


## Anteros

> I do appreciate Anteros sticking the "what Minmax does to goblins, however horrific from any rational perspective, can't be murder" and "a goblin killing Minmax is automatically murder" brain-twisting assertions in the same post; it saves me from thinking, even for a second, that it could possibly be a productive use of my time to argue with him.
> 
> Edited to add to toma02, though: Minmax aggressively didn't care about the goblins doing anything that made them evil. Forgath brought up the subject and Minmax outright said "what's gotten into you?" XP, XP, XP, loot, loot, loot.
> 
> Getting back on subject, aggravated as I was by the earlier strip I brought up, I don't think Ellipsis is going to take it to "Complains actually has an evil alignment."


If you can't see the difference between killing someone who has surrendered in cold blood and attacking an active war camp then you're right, there's no point in ever conversing.

What the Drows did to the elderly at the war camp was murder, but Minmax wasn't there for that and given his history probably would have acted against the Drow if he was. Everything Minmax did at the camp was against an enemy combatant.

----------


## Vinyadan

The concept of combatant is a bit iffy in this case... everyone is a combatant, if you force them into combat. In particular, Young&Beautiful explains the need to create warcamps exactly because adventurers would kill women and children, and keeping men away in a warcamp creates a more appealing target. So the definition of warcamp would be more like "distractioncamp" in a war that isn't being waged by the Cryptic Fall against other, but by opportunistic, unprovoked raiders and marauders against the Cryptic Fall clan.

Would it have made a difference, if the Goblins had just sat in their huts playing chess? No, not at all. The Drows would have got there first and started killing them anyway, forcing them into combat, and then MM would have come in.

It's clear that MM had a worldview distorted by expectations. He explicitly looked for a ranger "that hated Goblins a lot", without considering that hating a race was in and of itself a deep moral failure. This is actually where the PC/Player divide comes in, and i gets difficult to get through it: how much was MM his player, and how much was he himself? And how much was the warcamp meant to be a clean target during a D&D session, instead of a decoy to protect the children (but not the elderly and the disabled)? It's session logic vs setting logic. It's what made early Goblins satire, an aspect that has long since disappeared.

If we look at MM as his own person, however, it becomes clear that his acts were driven by racism. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/10142005 As Thaco says, he assumes that goblins as a whole are in a certain way. That goblins, as a whole, steal babies in the night, attack villages, and are evil. Humans also steal babies, attack villages, and are evil, but MM doesn't seem to care to expand this category to every single human.*

*The puzzling remark made by Thaco the following page is something I never got, and I assume that it was another intrusion of session logic, or simply the acceptance of the fact that you need to defend yourself when you are attacked, and that's going to happen to goblins no matter what for a long time.

----------


## Morgaln

> Why don't you read the bit where Forgath finds the scroll that talks about the white terror.
> 
> 
> _"They steal babies in the night. They attack villages. They are evil."_
> https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/03122006
> 
> Minmax, from the bottom of his heart, truly believed that the goblins were evil, as did Forgath until the Teller confronted him, as would most D&D players, because, back in the day, when this comic started, it was a bit of a novel subversion to have the "evil" race being good (these days, the whole gray morality of races is everywhere, to the point where it's actually refreshing to see evil races that are actually evil again). Minmax was also willing to change his mind after being forced to stay in their company less than a day. 
> 
> Sure, Minmax wanted XP and loot, but he wouldn't have done it if he had any qualms about the morality of his actions. Whether it was a good/evil act is up to debate, but there isn't a scrap of evidence that he would have done this if he had thought it was an immoral act. If Minmax was that type of person, he would have been fine with Goblin Slayer torturing kin every day in order to hunt down the goblins.


Goblins started in 2005. By then, having the "evil" races be good was no longer much of a subversion, it was commonplace. The AD&D Compete Book of Humanoids, that first officially brought up the idea of goblinoids not only as good but also as player characters was released in 1993, 12 years before the first Goblins strip. The Planescape setting specifically went about mixing up common perception of races and with Sigil, had a melting pot of all kinds of races living together peacefully. By the time D&D 3.0 came out, other successful games had already moved beyond "evil" races (e. g. The Dark Eye, Runequest) or had never bought into that to begin with (e. g. Shadowrun).
Other media also moved beyond that long before the comic was released; see for example M:tGs Squee and Thangath, both introduced in 1997, or orcs in Warcraft III (2002) and WoW (2004)
Goblin's basic idea was nowhere near as groundbreaking at the time it was released as people like to pretend. For that, it would have to have been released about ten years earlier.

----------


## Traab

Again, minmax showed up on the bridge specifically to continue his attempt to kill goblins. The only reason he stopped was that Kore was a greater threat. Killing him while he was distracted by his grief over losing forgath isnt murder, its good freaking sense. Minmax was an unrepentant goblin killing monster and right up till the end saw no issues with killing even more. His philosophy is "monsters are monsters, unless I have to spend time around them outside of combat, then those specific monsters are ok."

----------


## tomaO2

> Goblin's basic idea was nowhere near as groundbreaking at the time it was released as people like to pretend. For that, it would have to have been released about ten years earlier.


Yes, I freely admit that Goblins was far from the first to do it, and was not trying to imply otherwise. That said, I still found the idea interesting at the time, as compared to most stories I had been reading up until that point. Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Fighting Fantasy, Wheel of Time, Guardians of the Flame, Xanith (this one had more tones of grey in it, but wasn't in your face about it as more modern works), Thomas Covenant (kinda skimmed that one; progagonist morally flawed but still following the 'battle to save the world from evil' line), etc. I had also never played a D&D that played up the angle of goblins are people too. 

Today, I've read so many variants on the story that I'm just plain sick of it (which makes a couple recent stories that actually just go hard ball into making the classic monster races evil again to be a breath of fresh air. I'm a big fan of the manga  Frieren at the Funeral, which also does a good job of writing how someone might be as an immortal. Then there is Goblin Slayer, and Overlord, just went all in on the concept. Re: Monster went too far though, in that the main was just too immoral for me to support), and Goblins doesn't do the job as well as, say, OOTS, in the engagement of the morality of the racism, while balancing levity with drama.

----------


## Kish

> [FONT=Comic Sans MS]
> 
> Why don't you read the bit where Forgath finds the scroll that talks about the white terror.


Why don't you reread the parts before that? Starting with Minmax's first appearance, which holds the answer to what Minmax would do if someone he had attacked was lying down helpless in front of him? Instead of offering the excuses Minmax started coming up with after he'd lost an eye to Complains--_after_ "Names swore a damn death oath on me (after I butchered most of his friends for personal gain)" didn't convince Forgath as well as Minmax wanted it to--as though they had mattered to the earlier "What's gotten into you?" Minmax.




> Whether it was a good/evil act is up to debate


Holy crap. Yeah, I'm gonna be disengaging from you now.

If you want to understand how nauseated I am right now, try actually rereading the strips where the man you're defending gleefully butchers dozens of innocents sometime.

(And yes, of course Minmax saw no moral issue in his mass murder, just as Dellyn saw no moral issue in raping Kin. That doesn't mean "so he's not that bad"--that means, "so he's exactly that bad." In both cases.)

----------


## tomaO2

"Nauseated"? 

If this talk makes you actually feel nauseated, then, man, you are* way* to worked up about this. This is not the comic for you if you can't tolerate some murder, because the scale of that got way worse after book 1. I'm not sure how you read the entire thing.

If you wanna talk about attacking people that don't want to fight we can go back to the literal first page of the comic, the one where a paladin was running away for his life, and was ruthlessly hunted down by the goblins. You think they cared that the Paladin didn't want to fight anymore? It's kill or be killed, man. No one has the moral high ground. I'm not really sure why you have such a hate on for MinMax, in particular. If all he wanted was to do is kill goblins, then he wouldn't have initially spared Vorpal. The specific reason for not doing so was because "he's harmless".  

Forgath didn't spare Thaco because Thaco was begging for his life. It was because Thaco wanted to save his son's life. Sacrificing yourself, and protecting others, shows you have empathy. That was the turning point.

----------


## Ibrinar

A confusing place reference, Minmax first appearance is after an off screen Kobold fight where the dialog doesn't answer that question, followed by an demon encounter, followed by Herbert trolling them with an crippled orc who kills himself. And his first warcamp appearance is against the bigger group, so link to what I assume Kish means for convenience: https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/12172005 (though I don't remember the question to "which holds the answer to what Minmax would do if someone he had attacked was lying down helpless in front of him" being asked)

----------


## tomaO2

I also worked out that the Minmax scene in question was him killing a goblin who was pleading for his life, while Forgath confronted the  Teller. I'll agree that it was described a badly, but I didn't think it worth bringing up.

The question I believe Kish is talking about is "is Minmax evil?" The scene in question "proves" Minmax is evil by showing him killing a helpless goblin that was just begging for his life. My response to that is begging for your life doesn't mean you are good, and killing someone begging for their life doesn't make you evil, or neutral, as the case may be (does make you fairly merciless, I'll grant).

Mixmax bad, goblins good. That is the thrust of Kish's argument. Kish really seems to hate Minmax.

----------


## Radar

> A confusing place reference, Minmax first appearance is after an off screen Kobold fight where the dialog doesn't answer that question, followed by an demon encounter, followed by Herbert trolling them with an crippled orc who kills himself. And his first warcamp appearance is against the bigger group, so link to what I assume Kish means for convenience: https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/12172005 (though I don't remember the question to "which holds the answer to what Minmax would do if someone he had attacked was lying down helpless in front of him" being asked)


I think the more relevant page would be this one, where Forgath and Minmax discuss the reason for attacking the goblin warcamp. Minmax was convinced that them being adventurers and goblins being first level monsters was enough of a reason.

Still, trying to see if Minmax is evil or not does not have any relevance here. The primary discussion point was, if Complains is evil for trying to kill mourning Minmax. For that, it does not matter one bit, if Minmax is good, bad or neutral. There is also the question, if we want to discuss rigid D&D-like alignment or morality closer to the real world. This might also clear a few issues up.

----------


## Traab

> I think the more relevant page would be this one, where Forgath and Minmax discuss the reason for attacking the goblin warcamp. Minmax was convinced that them being adventurers and goblins being first level monsters was enough of a reason.
> 
> Still, trying to see if Minmax is evil or not does not have any relevance here. The primary discussion point was, if Complains is evil for trying to kill mourning Minmax. For that, it does not matter one bit, if Minmax is good, bad or neutral. There is also the question, if we want to discuss rigid D&D-like alignment or morality closer to the real world. This might also clear a few issues up.


I think discussing the fact that minmax is a rampaging mass murderer of goblins who had approached the GAP for the second time with intent to kill them is totally relevant to complains trying to kill him at the first opportunity and if that act is good evil or neutral. After all, motive is a valid part of deciding if an action is criminal or not, so the same should be said for what alignment it falls under. As an example. I kill someone. Depending on context the act could be good or evil. It was a child playing hopscotch in the street? Evil act. it was a brigand trying to kill a nun protecting her orphanage? Good act.

----------


## tomaO2

Does Complains have the right to kill off Minmax, and for it to not be considered an evil act? Sure. It basically counts as an ambush. If you can't kill someone crying, then you can't kill when sleeping, or eating, or when that person's back is turned. In other words, it's only really an act that Big Ears should have a strong opinion over. 

I assume that the reason that Thaco was saying the difference between evil and fury is because they had just worked together vs a mass murderer that is a thousand times worse than Minmax. Yes, just moments ago, Forgath and Minmax were working together to kill them, but they also immediately started helping them when Kore showed up. They could have just ran, they could have tried to talk to Kore to get him to let them live. They were fighting goblins, so that should have worked. Kore does not kill literally everyone he meets, as Kin showed.

They did neither. They helped the goblins to escape Kore, and Forgath died saving them. Furthermore, Minmax clearly showed no interest in continuing fighting the goblins and was grieving the life of the man that sacrificed himself to save them all. That's why Thaco considered killing Minmax to be evil. I wouldn't go that far myself, because I don't consider it to be *evil* to immediately attack someone you are forced to work with in order to survive. However, I understand Thaco's view, would have tried to stop Complains as well, and it is, at the least, not a _smart_ decision, because Kore is still coming for them.

----------


## Anteros

> Again, minmax showed up on the bridge specifically to continue his attempt to kill goblins. The only reason he stopped was that Kore was a greater threat. Killing him while he was distracted by his grief over losing forgath isnt murder, its good freaking sense. Minmax was an unrepentant goblin killing monster and right up till the end saw no issues with killing even more. His philosophy is "monsters are monsters, unless I have to spend time around them outside of combat, then those specific monsters are ok."


Only if you willfully ignore their explicit plans to wipe out all non-goblin life that they found in their war camp.  He has a pretty compelling reason to track them down.  Even Forgath, who deescalated the original situation was convinced they needed to do so.  




> I think discussing the fact that minmax is a rampaging mass murderer of goblins who had approached the GAP for the second time with intent to kill them is totally relevant to complains trying to kill him at the first opportunity and if that act is good evil or neutral. After all, motive is a valid part of deciding if an action is criminal or not, so the same should be said for what alignment it falls under. As an example. I kill someone. Depending on context the act could be good or evil. It was a child playing hopscotch in the street? Evil act. it was a brigand trying to kill a nun protecting her orphanage? Good act.


Murdering said brigand in cold blood after he surrenders and lies on the ground crying is an objectively evil act.




> I do appreciate Anteros sticking the "what Minmax does to goblins, however horrific from any rational perspective, can't be murder" and "a goblin killing Minmax is automatically murder" brain-twisting assertions in the same post; it saves me from thinking, even for a second, that it could possibly be a productive use of my time to argue with him.





> Holy crap. Yeah, I'm gonna be disengaging from you now.


The world must be a very different place for someone who willfully shuts their ears to everyone who ever disagrees with them.  It's a fantasy webcomic discussion about a situation that's literally written to be morally ambiguous.  I think you can manage to control your "nausea" at the other posters here if you try.  Actually, if you could stop with the insults in general, that would be great.




> The concept of combatant is a bit iffy in this case... everyone is a combatant, if you force them into combat. In particular, Young&Beautiful explains the need to create warcamps exactly because adventurers would kill women and children, and keeping men away in a warcamp creates a more appealing target. So the definition of warcamp would be more like "distractioncamp" in a war that isn't being waged by the Cryptic Fall against other, but by opportunistic, unprovoked raiders and marauders against the Cryptic Fall clan.


Ok, but how are Minmax and Forgath supposed to know that?  Sure, in some hypothetical situation where Minmax murders a bunch of goblin babies in their peaceful village he's a monster, but that's literally not what happened in the story.  We know from reading the actual story that goblins in the area are regularly raiding and enslaving other races to fuel a campaign to end all non-goblin life.  Maybe this particular group wasn't part of it, but when they're masquerading as a war camp in the same area what are people supposed to think?  It's like if you dressed up in a long red coat during the revolutionary war and went to stand in a line with your buddies holding muskets, then got upset that the revolutionaries attacked you.  It's nonsense.  They're literally pretending to be part of a hostile group.

----------


## Vinyadan

About the paladin at the start of the story, his death might have something to do with punishment. Chief explicitly talks about punishing Forgath.

There also is the possibility that, since the Warcamp is hard to find, letting go a survivor would mean knowledge of its position spreading to humans. Hawl needed a map to get there, which is how Kore found the remains of the camp.

Of course, saying "in the Cryptic Fall polity, it is accepted law that...e.g. attackers are punished by death" can frame actions to explain why they were taken, but also doesn't tackle the issues the comic normally goes after, which is institutionalised racism in Brassmoon, or the odd, vaguely dystopian laws in the Warcamp (which are only partially explained by the Shield being a death trap, or the need to protect the women).

Anyway, comparing MM killing the goblin to the goblins killing the paladin misses the point of MM and the paladin being attackers, and that everything would have been fine and dandy, hadn't they decided to just kill some goblins. The paladin also didn't surrender or ask for mercy.

Also, Kore attacked MM and Forgath first. That's why they fought him, although it's clear that, even before that, Forgath didn't like him, as he called him the "cursed scourge of the Realm". But it really wasn't a matter of wanting to save the goblins, as far as I can see.

About Thaco sparing MM, I realised later that Thaco also spared Goblinslayer, so it could be the result of a decision he took even before joining the GAP. I think this matter needs more discussion in the comic, however (there is some backstory yet to be told, as he didn't want to talk about Names' mother).

----------


## Traab

> Only if you willfully ignore their explicit plans to wipe out all non-goblin life that they found in their war camp.  He has a pretty compelling reason to track them down.  Even Forgath, who deescalated the original situation was convinced they needed to do so.  
> 
> Murdering said brigand in cold blood after he surrenders and lies on the ground crying is an objectively evil act.


According to this comic its not about saving the world, its about "I promised id kill you, so lets get to me killing you." So we have minmax, FOR THE SECOND TIME, attacking the goblins so he can kill them. Not for any high minded ideals, but because they are goblins and thats what adventurers do. And in this case for revenge for daring to injure him earlier. He didnt surrender, he broke down upon losing his buddy. He had no regret for his actions, no wish to atone for murdering goblins for the crime of daring to exist in range of an adventure group. He was heartbroken over losing first kin and now forgath. That doesnt make him stop being a direct danger to the GAP and a man guilty of mass murder.  Just because FOR THAT MOMENT he didnt want to kill them doesnt make him safe to be around, or give them any reason to not execute him on the spot.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Ok, but how are Minmax and Forgath supposed to know that? Sure, in some hypothetical situation where Minmax murders a bunch of goblin babies in their peaceful village he's a monster, but that's literally not what happened in the story. We know from reading the actual story that goblins in the area are regularly raiding and enslaving other races to fuel a campaign to end all non-goblin life. Maybe this particular group wasn't part of it, but when they're masquerading as a war camp in the same area what are people supposed to think? It's like if you dressed up in a long red coat during the revolutionary war and went to stand in a line with your buddies holding muskets, then got upset that the revolutionaries attacked you. It's nonsense. They're literally pretending to be part of a hostile group.



You raise many points whose ultimate answer would depend on more worldbuilding. One would be, "does the creation of a warcamp imply aggressive, bellicose intent?". It isn't an easy question to answer, as fortresses are generally built and soldiers are generally trained even in times of peace.


Another one is "Were there other areas in this Realm where a weak clan could place its warcamp, considering also that it appears to be the clan's commercial hub, and that its location will surely be conditioned by the position of the village?"


More importantly, MM didn't know anything about the White Terror's intent before attacking. And all of Duv's slaves are monsters. So those most likely couldn't be the reasons. As Forgath implies, the attack wasn't an answer to any known ill deed, and MM answers by bringing forward sweeping allegations against a whole race, not "around here...".


For me, it's pretty simple. MM and Forgath went hobo-murdering. Forgath found out that their XP-fodder was actually made up of rational creatures with more or less the same basic desires as he had. MM didn't. He just wanted to kill monsters. He still thought he was supposed to kill Kin after saving her.


But maybe that's the crux, "being supposed to". Again, the comic is generally against the constituted system: Goblins have weird rules and are ruled by their malignant enforcer (Young & Beautiful), Brassmoon institutionalised racism, MM is supposed to kill monsters...


And Thaco taking the big step and sparing MM could be read as another step in the direction of destroying such systems.


As an aside, I have never found Forgath being convinced by MM of the malignity of the goblins very believable, since it's a wisdom-based class vs his dim-witted friend (and he later was prepared to kill MM to save Kin). But I've found almost all of MM's turns very abrupt, so this one, MM suddenly liking Kin (the least odd one, it's mostly a matter of how it's described), MM grabbing Kin's leash, and MM becoming a companion of the GAP all seem driven more by narrative need than by characterisation.

----------


## Traab

> You raise many points whose ultimate answer would depend on more worldbuilding. One would be, "does the creation of a warcamp imply aggressive, bellicose intent?". It isn't an easy question to answer, as fortresses are generally built and soldiers are generally trained even in times of peace.
> 
> 
> Another one is "Were there other areas in this Realm where a weak clan could place its warcamp, considering also that it appears to be the clan's commercial hub, and that its location will surely be conditioned by the position of the village?"
> 
> 
> More importantly, MM didn't know anything about the White Terror's intent before attacking. And all of Duv's slaves are monsters. So those most likely couldn't be the reasons. As Forgath implies, the attack wasn't an answer to any known ill deed, and MM answers by bringing forward sweeping allegations against a whole race, not "around here...".
> 
> 
> ...


I think in large part its driven by him being a D&D character and following the plot. "Ok, forgath is "dead" and im stuck in a dungeon with the GAP. I guess my only option going forward is to join forces, even if only for now." In truth, minmax himself isnt an evil or cruel personality. He is very much so a D&D character personality. You are supposed to kill monsters, finish quests, and level up. Monsters are monsters, named monsters might become important npcs some day, but in general, monster races are enemies to kill and why doesnt matter.  There is more to him than just that, but it seems to be the primary way he was thinking because thats how the game is supposed to be played. When some tavern keeper hires you to kill the giant rats in the basement, you dont stop to ask why. You dont ponder on the ethics of killing rats who might just want a place to live and food to eat, you kill the giant rats and accept your reward! Then you move on and kill the next lowest level monsters, in this case, goblins. You dont question it. You are told "There is a camp of goblins not too far from the human village, go clear them out" and thats good enough for an adventure team.

----------


## Anteros

> According to this comic its not about saving the world, its about "I promised id kill you, so lets get to me killing you." So we have minmax, FOR THE SECOND TIME, attacking the goblins so he can kill them. Not for any high minded ideals, but because they are goblins and thats what adventurers do. And in this case for revenge for daring to injure him earlier. He didnt surrender, he broke down upon losing his buddy. He had no regret for his actions, no wish to atone for murdering goblins for the crime of daring to exist in range of an adventure group. He was heartbroken over losing first kin and now forgath. That doesnt make him stop being a direct danger to the GAP and a man guilty of mass murder.  Just because FOR THAT MOMENT he didnt want to kill them doesnt make him safe to be around, or give them any reason to not execute him on the spot.


And Complains says 2 comics later that he's going to kill Minmax because he swore a death oath on him.  His plan the entire comic has been to hunt Minmax down.  He's not concerned about Minmax being a threat to goblins.  He explicitly wants to murder him for revenge.  
https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/02172006
https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/01152015

So one is evil and the other isn't?  That's a pretty big double standard you have there.




> You raise many points whose ultimate answer would depend on more worldbuilding. One would be, "does the creation of a warcamp imply aggressive, bellicose intent?". It isn't an easy question to answer, as fortresses are generally built and soldiers are generally trained even in times of peace.
> 
> 
> Another one is "Were there other areas in this Realm where a weak clan could place its warcamp, considering also that it appears to be the clan's commercial hub, and that its location will surely be conditioned by the position of the village?"
> 
> 
> More importantly, MM didn't know anything about the White Terror's intent before attacking. And all of Duv's slaves are monsters. So those most likely couldn't be the reasons. As Forgath implies, the attack wasn't an answer to any known ill deed, and MM answers by bringing forward sweeping allegations against a whole race, not "around here...".
> 
> 
> ...


They didn't explicity know about the white terror until after attacking the camp.  They did presumably know about a group of goblins causing trouble in the area considering they went looking for them in the first place.  Yes, the moral of the comic is basically "racism is wrong and needs to be ended" but the fact remains that several groups of goblins in the area actually were doing the things Minmax thought they were.  In fact I think every single clan *except* the one he attacked is represented in Duv's group.  It's entirely reasonable to think a war camp in hostile territory is hostile.  

Yes, Minmax was only there for the loot and exp, but he doesn't go around murdering people he isn't convinced are evil.  He does try to be a good person despite the fact that he was misguided.  We've literally been shown that about his character over and over and over.

We don't have to wonder what Minmax would do if he finds out the Goblins aren't evil anyway.  We know.  He's not just with them for survival, he's with them because he witnessed their loss and it "humanized" them.  He realized they aren't evil.  If he thought they were evil, or just wanted revenge he'd have gotten up afterwards and fought them.  He probably couldn't win, but there's no way he'd know that.

----------


## Traab

> And Complains says 2 comics later that he's going to kill Minmax because he swore a death oath on him.  His plan the entire comic has been to hunt Minmax down.  He's not concerned about Minmax being a threat to goblins.  He explicitly wants to murder him for revenge.  
> https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/02172006
> https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/01152015
> 
> So one is evil and the other isn't?  That's a pretty big double standard you have there.
> 
> 
> 
> They didn't explicity know about the white terror until after attacking the camp.  They did presumably know about a group of goblins causing trouble in the area considering they went looking for them in the first place.  Yes, the moral of the comic is basically "racism is wrong and needs to be ended" but the fact remains that several groups of goblins in the area actually were doing the things Minmax thought they were.  In fact I think every single clan *except* the one he attacked is represented in Duv's group.  It's entirely reasonable to think a war camp in hostile territory is hostile.  
> ...



Im sorry, did I somehow imply minmax is a good guy? Because he isnt. As ive said repeatedly now, he is a mass murdering monster, to the GAP at least, and so they are fully justified in killing him at the closest opportunity. Because he has tried at least twice now to kill them and they dont know when he will try again. If Jason Vorhees starts sobbing because he lost his mask, you are not evil for unloading every bullet you own into his body because he has spent the last hour and a half stalking and killing everyone in the area trying to kill you and you dont know when he will get over it and pick up his machete again.

----------


## Keltest

> Im sorry, did I somehow imply minmax is a good guy? Because he isnt. As ive said repeatedly now, he is a mass murdering monster, to the GAP at least, and so they are fully justified in killing him at the closest opportunity. Because he has tried at least twice now to kill them and they dont know when he will try again. If Jason Vorhees starts sobbing because he lost his mask, you are not evil for unloading every bullet you own into his body because he has spent the last hour and a half stalking and killing everyone in the area trying to kill you and you dont know when he will get over it and pick up his machete again.


And as far as Minmax is concerned, the goblins are warmongering soldiers who swore vengeance against him, personally, and previously were participating in a campaign of covert war against people in the area. They literally have the exact same beliefs about each other, so why are only the goblins justified in killing Minmax?

----------


## Traab

> And as far as Minmax is concerned, the goblins are warmongering soldiers who swore vengeance against him, personally, and previously were participating in a campaign of covert war against people in the area. They literally have the exact same beliefs about each other, so why are only the goblins justified in killing Minmax?


And now you are changing the argument. The debate point was "Is it evil to kill minmax when he was on the ground crying?" It absolutely is not. Minmax is their enemy, he has tried to kill them all repeatedly, and he has shown zero remorse for his actions. Names was totally justified in wanting to finish him off and that would not have been evil.

----------


## Ibrinar

Complaining about someone replying to your comments about Minmax morality is rich.

----------


## Keltest

> And now you are changing the argument. The debate point was "Is it evil to kill minmax when he was on the ground crying?" It absolutely is not. Minmax is their enemy, he has tried to kill them all repeatedly, and he has shown zero remorse for his actions. Names was totally justified in wanting to finish him off and that would not have been evil.


Im not changing the argument, im just pointing out that your own logic, which you are using to declare Minmax evil, also applies to the goblins.

----------


## Vinyadan

I think that this particular discussion has got too heated, and I am dropping out of it. Not the thread, just the "kill MM" part and its branches.

----------


## Traab

> Im not changing the argument, im just pointing out that your own logic, which you are using to declare Minmax evil, also applies to the goblins.


Not really, because in every interaction Minmax was the aggressor. He flat out didnt care WHY they were killing goblins, it was just the latest quest from herbert and when questioned on it decided to assume they were all baby killing monsters who deserved to be wiped out for the crime of existing. Then after names managed to hurt and embarrass him, minmax swore to kill names out of indignation and outrage, while names swore to kill him because minmax had killed so many of his friends. They arent the same and thaco was an idiot for suggesting otherwise.

----------


## Keltest

> Not really, because in every interaction Minmax was the aggressor. He flat out didnt care WHY they were killing goblins, it was just the latest quest from herbert and when questioned on it decided to assume they were all baby killing monsters who deserved to be wiped out for the crime of existing. Then after names managed to hurt and embarrass him, minmax swore to kill names out of indignation and outrage, while names swore to kill him because minmax had killed so many of his friends. They arent the same and thaco was an idiot for suggesting otherwise.


They formed a freaking war camp, and declared it as such. As Thaco points out, when people subsequently target them as enemy soldiers, they dont have a lot of room to protest.

----------


## tomaO2

> Not really, because in every interaction Minmax was the aggressor. He flat out didn't care WHY they were killing goblins, it was just the latest quest from herbert and when questioned on it decided to assume they were all baby killing monsters who deserved to be wiped out for the crime of existing. Then after names managed to hurt and embarrass him, minmax swore to kill names out of indignation and outrage, while names swore to kill him because minmax had killed so many of his friends. They aren't the same and thaco was an idiot for suggesting otherwise.


Okay, lets try a different tact. Goblins vs adventurers is basically like a Warhammer faction war, Horde vs Alliance. That is the paradigm here. They each kill each other because it's what they are supposed to do. There isn't a ton of thought that goes into it. Just like there isn't a ton of thought that goblins keep all magical items in a poorly locked box, and don't set traps around it, or why the adventurers are raiding this warcamp, without first checking to find out if they were personally responsible for the actual cases of goblins stealing babies, or raiding caravans (it's kind of a hard thing to verify anyway). It's just how things are done.

By the way, the fact that Complains "cheated" is probably at least half the reason Minmax disliked him so much, and Minmax did view what Complains did as blatant cheating. Even Chief did, as his talk with Complains showed right after. It honestly bothers me a little that the fact that Complains broke the rules doesn't seem to have any payoff. I doubt anyone will mention this again, especially since Complains is chief now.

Anyway, all of a sudden, there is a special event, and a third faction shows up (Kore). The two factions can either team up to fight the new faction, or continue fighting each other while they get wiped out. Two alliance members, that have gotten a lot of kills off a particular horde group, decide to help them to fight. Horde!Complains decides to be a backstabbing weasel at the first opportunity, and kill off those alliance!Minmax while weakened. Can he do it? Sure. Should he do it? No. Killing your teammates is taboo, because this is a faction kill warzone, not a free for all. 

If you go back to infighting, then everyone falls. 

Think about this from a pure firepower perspective. You do NOT want to give up any potential allies when fighting the bigger threat. By killing Minmax, Complains is removing an asset from play. Between a goblin that hurt him a little, or the guy that killed his best friend, who do you think Minmax's main target is? News flash, it's not the goblins. 

All this fearmongering that Minmax will attack the goblins is pure nonsense. He's crying over the fact that Kore killed his friend, when he stops crying, he's not going to attack the ones who Forgath died in order to save. That would disgrace the dwarf's memory. Likewise, if the goblins kill Minmax, that is disgracing the memory of a man that reached out to stop the faction fighting, and saved them from Kore, and if there is one thing I can say about their culture, is that they truly honor their dead. You don't build statues like that to forget. This is so much more than just a question of whether or not killing Minmax is evil, because that is a question that is in isolation of the circumstances surrounding it. 

While Minmax ended up abandoning them anyway, it was still the smarter move, because that guy is now Kore's enemy, and you need as many of those as you can get. Circumstances change, and you need to change with it. Minmax, for all his faults, is not going around killing children. Kore? Is.

----------


## Anteros

> And now you are changing the argument. The debate point was "Is it evil to kill minmax when he was on the ground crying?" It absolutely is not. Minmax is their enemy, he has tried to kill them all repeatedly, and he has shown zero remorse for his actions. Names was totally justified in wanting to finish him off and that would not have been evil.


They're not changing the subject, they're pointing out your double standards.  You repeatedly are willing to apply standards to Minmax that you aren't to Complains.  Things like "I'll kill him because I swore to" make Minmax a villain but you don't care that Complains said literally the exact same thing.  You're willing to give Complains the benefit of perspective since he only knows Minmax through his own perspective, but not willing to do the same for Minmax.  You're mad that Minmax is an aggressor, but willing to overlook that Complains' character motivation is explicitly to get strong enough to hunt Minmax down.

----------


## Traab

> They're not changing the subject, they're pointing out your double standards.  You repeatedly are willing to apply standards to Minmax that you aren't to Complains.  Things like "I'll kill him because I swore to" make Minmax a villain but you don't care that Complains said literally the exact same thing.  You're willing to give Complains the benefit of perspective since he only knows Minmax through his own perspective, but not willing to do the same for Minmax.  You're mad that Minmax is an aggressor, but willing to overlook that Complains' character motivation is explicitly to get strong enough to hunt Minmax down.


Im not pretending complains is a hero because he isnt. Im simply pointing out that killing your enemy when has has already killed countless members of your group, tried to kill you personally twice, and has never once showed he wont go right back to trying to kill you as soon as the mood strikes him ISNT EVIL. It is a pragmatic and totally reasonable thing to do.

----------


## Keltest

> Im not pretending complains is a hero because he isnt. Im simply pointing out that killing your enemy when has has already killed countless members of your group, tried to kill you personally twice, and has never once showed he wont go right back to trying to kill you as soon as the mood strikes him ISNT EVIL. It is a pragmatic and totally reasonable thing to do.


Minmax is only an enemy because complains declared him to be. The only moral conflicts they had were over the war camp, and the goblins are the bad guys there, as much as that scenario has a bad guy, so complains doesnt have a lot of room to be offended.

----------


## Kish

Yes, of course, "I'll kill you!" is exactly the same as "I'll wipe out your whole goddamned race!"

I don't even need to get to how the first is spoken to a mass murdering brigand and the latter to a survivor of that brigand's victims (though Traab has pointed that out, much good I expect it to do) for that argument to already be the most utterly without merit ever posted on these boards, and that's truly saying something.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

Hey so how about we drop this whole topic alltogether? it's not going anywhere and it's just making people upset. Lets talk about less volatile things instead. like... shipping!

Complains and Saves-a-fox. you think they'd be good together at all? She's got hair, so if nothing else he might be interested. i don't know how she'd feel about him though.

----------


## Radar

> Hey so how about we drop this whole topic alltogether? it's not going anywhere and it's just making people upset. Lets talk about less volatile things instead. like... shipping!
> 
> Complains and Saves-a-fox. you think they'd be good together at all? She's got hair, so if nothing else he might be interested. i don't know how she'd feel about him though.


This calls for a song!

That being said, I can see, why you would think about the two as they are both very much against the predetermined fate although from slightly different perspectives. That being said, I do not really see them together. Two strong and unbending personalities do not mesh well - especially if they cannot help each other grow.

Personality-wise Complains would mesh better with someone like Big Ears in my opinion as there would be room for improvement for both. There is a reason why the Kirk-Spock-Bones trio worked so well and I am sure there is a lot of slash fics fueled by their dynamics in the original series.

And to toss some crazy crack ship:
Complains and White Terror - I think they would go as well as a powder keg and a fuse.

----------


## Vinyadan

> This calls for a song!


I actually was expecting this one  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> And to toss some crazy crack ship:
> Complains and White Terror - I think they would go as well as a powder keg and a fuse.


She's the goblin equivilent of an angel sent down by the Goblin God to lead the Goblins into becoming the dominant race. He's a half-demon who refuses to take any BS from anyone who can't lead his way out of a wet paper bag no matter how many times people tell him he can... That would be... an interesting Combo...

... What about Duv and Redcloak? White and Red go well together, and they're both evil goblins trying to do somethingorother involving all goblins and power.

----------


## Keltest

> She's the goblin equivilent of an angel sent down by the Goblin God to lead the Goblins into becoming the dominant race. He's a half-demon who refuses to take any BS from anyone who can't lead his way out of a wet paper bag no matter how many times people tell him he can... That would be... an interesting Combo...
> 
> ... What about Duv and Redcloak? White and Red go well together, and they're both evil goblins trying to do somethingorother involving all goblins and power.


Im pretty sure weve met the goblin equivalent of an angel, actually.

----------


## Radar

> I actually was expecting this one


I see you are a man of taste. One of the most powerful musicals ever.




> She's the goblin equivilent of an angel sent down by the Goblin God to lead the Goblins into becoming the dominant race. He's a half-demon who refuses to take any BS from anyone who can't lead his way out of a wet paper bag no matter how many times people tell him he can... That would be... an interesting Combo...
> 
> ... What about Duv and Redcloak? White and Red go well together, and they're both evil goblins trying to do somethingorother involving all goblins and power.


Duv and Redcloak would probably work pretty well together. The most interesting part would be the clash of the respective realities. Goblinverse is pretty low-level and all the more for the monster races as taking class levels is a strong taboo. On the other hand Redcloak comes from a high magic world, where there are multiple people reaching epic levels and pretty much everyone has either PC or NPC class levels. Duv would go through a serious shock as she thought to be the best thing ever - the pinnacle of goblin race.

Another dynamic aspect between Duv and Redcloak would be that she is a fairly stereotypical villain just short of mustache-twirling, while Redcloak is first and foremost pragmatic and goal-oriented.

edit:
Actually I think that Redcloak would have a serious fit, when he learned about the fairly self-destructive goblin traditions from Goblinverse.

----------


## Kornaki

> Actually I think that Redcloak would have a serious fit, when he learned about the fairly self-destructive goblin traditions from Goblinverse.


He would find it to be entirely in keeping with how the gods insert goblins into worlds, and promptly go off to find the snarl.  The relationship would carry on long distance for a couple of months, until Redcloak decides he needs to spellslots for something better than sending.

----------


## Anteros

As a high level cleric Redcloak would probably just find Duv completely useless and planeshift home. He might waste a spell slot to fix her wings before he left, but he also might not.

----------


## Taevyr

Redcloak would throw an immense fit upon realizing that (in his view) goblin mistreatment isn't just an intrinsic problem of his homeworld, it's a _planar_ problem, and the goblins here are generally even worse off and self-destructive to boot.

He'd then try and come up with a way to unleash the snarl and improve goblinkind acros the planes, never realizing how that makes him a perfect example of the rigidly traditional, self-destructive goblins there.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

if nothing else, I'd think Redcloak would be at least impressed with Duv's fighting style. that's some acrobatic stuff that's bound to catch some attention.

kind of want to assume that for this experiment they're both of similar power level. suppose that's near impossible though considering levels exist in both their worlds, and even if Duv looks powerful in her world, she'd be weaker then one of Tuskio's  undead in the Ootsverse. Redcloak could probably take over the world in the Goblinsverse. might even put up a fight against Kore.

otherwise, if levels somehow didn't exist,  they were both of comparative power level, and their respective stories somehow took place in the same universe... they'd make a pretty deadly duo.


I wonder though. Duv wants her wing back to lead the Goblins to glory, Redcloak wants to send an outerdimentional beast to his god as a weapon. I wonder if one of them would switch plans, or if they'd somehow combine plans. if the former, who? if the latter, how?


maybe Redcloak helps Duv get her wings back and get to full strength, and uses the ensuing chaos and Goblinoid army to secure the gate(s)?

----------


## Traab

> if nothing else, I'd think Redcloak would be at least impressed with Duv's fighting style. that's some acrobatic stuff that's bound to catch some attention.
> 
> kind of want to assume that for this experiment they're both of similar power level. suppose that's near impossible though considering levels exist in both their worlds, and even if Duv looks powerful in her world, she'd be weaker then one of Tuskio's  undead in the Ootsverse. Redcloak could probably take over the world in the Goblinsverse. might even put up a fight against Kore.
> 
> otherwise, if levels somehow didn't exist,  they were both of comparative power level, and their respective stories somehow took place in the same universe... they'd make a pretty deadly duo.
> 
> 
> I wonder though. Duv wants her wing back to lead the Goblins to glory, Redcloak wants to send an outerdimentional beast to his god as a weapon. I wonder if one of them would switch plans, or if they'd somehow combine plans. if the former, who? if the latter, how?
> 
> ...



Considering a team of level 4s-5s dang near finished kore off, I would have to say a near epic level cleric like redcloak would roflstomp kore.

----------


## Keltest

> Considering a team of level 4s-5s dang near finished kore off, I would have to say a near epic level cleric like redcloak would roflstomp kore.


In fairness, they had to cheese him two different ways to do it.

----------


## Vinyadan

I think so, too. If I recall correctly, Goblinslayer was gauged at lvl 6 or 7, and Kore around lvl 14. Redcloak lost against Miko, who was lvl 12-16, but now he has lvl 9 spells. If he can endure the crossbows (which seems likely, as Forgath, a much lower level cleric, also could), then he can just go destruction and implosion.

----------


## Traab

> In fairness, they had to cheese him two different ways to do it.


True, but a single level 4 forgath also dang near killed him and the only cheese he had was a +7 axe. Honestly, Kores reputation seems to be predicated upon him wiping out no class level having npc swarms. He has significant trouble against our players every time he shows up. The GAP were able to hurt him bad enough to escape with some clever tactics, though they lost chief. He is rapidly falling apart as this arc goes on. First the throat damage still seems to linger a bit from the rope he took. Then his gear took lots of damage fighting forgath, then he took even MORE damage to himself and all his gear inside the dungeon. Half of his HEAD was literally torn from his body, and he took several serious stab wounds. I honestly dont know what the heck he really is at this point as, again, half his HEAD is missing, but he has clearly been taking heavy damage so its adding up on him. It has to be or else he wouldnt have fled, he would have struck while they were distracted.

----------


## Vinyadan

> True, but a single level 4 forgath also dang near killed him and the only cheese he had was a +7 axe. Honestly, Kores reputation seems to be predicated upon him wiping out no class level having npc swarms. He has significant trouble against our players every time he shows up. The GAP were able to hurt him bad enough to escape with some clever tactics, though they lost chief. He is rapidly falling apart as this arc goes on. First the throat damage still seems to linger a bit from the rope he took. Then his gear took lots of damage fighting forgath, then he took even MORE damage to himself and all his gear inside the dungeon. Half of his HEAD was literally torn from his body, and he took several serious stab wounds. I honestly dont know what the heck he really is at this point as, again, half his HEAD is missing, but he has clearly been taking heavy damage so its adding up on him. It has to be or else he wouldnt have fled, he would have struck while they were distracted.


The easy answer would be a corporeal undead, as they aren't alive because of the integrity of their body. Aberrations also are immune to critical hits because of their alien biology.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

considering the guy has thousands of souls living inside him, he might be something more like Talion from Shadow of Mordor. a living being kept alive by the spirit(s) of the dead against their mutual will.

----------


## Vinyadan

A construct, maybe (they also are immune to critical hits because of their odd physiology); but constructs cannot heal by spells, which I think Kore did after the rope incident. Soul bind uses gems (inanimate objects) to capture souls. I don't know if soul-powered constructs exist. If I recall correctly, in older editions undead, even mindless undead, were powered by the souls of the original creatures that were stuck inside the body.

----------


## Kornaki

I think the fight would look something like 

Implosion.  Oh, you're immune (at least I speculate this is true)? Disintegrate.

----------


## Radar

> I think the fight would look something like 
> 
> Implosion.  Oh, you're immune (at least I speculate this is true)? Disintegrate.


Reminds me of the greatest cleric battle of all time. I wonder if Redcloak vs. Kore would get equally impressive FX budget.  :Small Wink:

----------


## tomaO2

Redcloak may at a higher level than the strongest adventurer in the Goblins universe right now, in all honesty. He'd be well able to make a new nation for goblins. Duv would be little more than a figurehead. Her power level can't compare. 

Kore is currently the highest we know about and he's become extraordinarily lackluster. Like, the last battle he lost was just kinda pathetic. At this point he can just go off and die in a corner. I'm not interested in the next rematch. Guy can't even beat a singular golem. I'm at the point where I don't see him as a viable threat anymore. I mean, sure, he killed Chief, and killing one of the main characters isn't nothing... but it was a 1 on 1 fight against a MUCH lower opponent, and you just kinda lose your menacing aura when you keep losing afterwards. It's absurd that such a big level disparity can be breached, tricks or not. 

His weaponry is especially terrible. It's a joke compared to what the mains got. I look at all the magical items that just litter the world, and what does Kore have? Just some nifty little innovations, in comparison. The axes don't appear to have any special properties. The shield gives some advantages but, in the end, it's just a tower shield, and the crossbows are low damage weapons that don't seem all that special, other than having a high rate of fire. 

Not that the high rate of fire isn't impressive and all, but it's not even as good as Chief's magical spear as a ranged weapon, and doesn't require reloading. He's also hasn't done anything of note since wiping out that small monster cave. Everything after that has been vs really weak enemies, or a flat out loss on Kore's part. 

He doesn't really do clever tactics either. Just charges into battle and assumes he'll win, and why the hell did he even fire at Forgath and Minmax when they were fighting the goblins at first? The guy doesn't literally just kill every single person he runs across. 

So, he's not all that smart, he's not all that tough (especially if he's been around for as long as the Axe has been around), and he doesn't really have an impressive arsenal of items. Overall, I'm very disappointed with how Kore was handled, and I no longer care about him as an antagonist.

----------


## Fyraltari

> why the hell did he even fire at Forgath and Minmax when they were fighting the goblins at first? The guy doesn't literally just kill every single person he runs across.


He fired at the goblins. Minmax and Forgath just happened to be close enough to be hit instead. Kore doesn't care about collateral damage (surprising, I know).

----------


## Kish

Also, he doesn't kill every single person he runs across? Really? Do you have an actual example of anyone who's survived meeting Kore, or are you putting undue (that is, any) weight on his self-justifications?

----------


## Keltest

> Also, he doesn't kill every single person he runs across? Really? Do you have an actual example of anyone who's survived meeting Kore, or are you putting undue (that is, any) weight on his self-justifications?


How about Kin, who he was perfectly content to leave alone while he was under the impression that she was a non-evil human adventurer?

----------


## Fyraltari

Somebody has to maintian his equipment so it's likely that he deosn't kill _everybody_ he comes across, but obviously his threshold for "needs killing" is so abysmally low that he kills *most* people he meets.

----------


## Traab

> How about Kin, who he was perfectly content to leave alone while he was under the impression that she was a non-evil human adventurer?


Yeah he doesnt kill at random, he kills the second whoever he sees gives him reason to think them evil. The problem is the threshold for what he deems evil is very nebulous as now every dwarf in forgaths line will be killed on sight with no warning as he has decided that two was enough to condemn the entire line. Even though one was only killed because he was kidnapped as a child. So anything that counts as a "monster" dies on sight. Any dwarf of forgaths clan dies on site, any person who does something he doesnt approve of dies on sight.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Yeah he doesnt kill at random, he kills the second whoever he sees gives him reason to think them evil. The problem is the threshold for what he deems evil is very nebulous as now every dwarf in forgaths line will be killed on sight with no warning as he has decided that two was enough to condemn the entire line. Even though one was only killed because he was kidnapped as a child. So anything that counts as a "monster" dies on sight. Any dwarf of forgaths clan dies on site, any person who does something he doesnt approve of dies on sight.


And should he find, say two humans from Brassmoon, trading with the Bladebeards while he's exterminating them, well that entire group's gotta go too. His list of targets grows exponentially over time. It's really not hard to see why the "good" races call him the cursed scourge of the realm.

----------


## Kish

On the one hand, what I asked was obviously wrong; the goblin adventurers _survived_ meeting him. I should have said "anyone who has encountered Kore and not been attacked by him."

On the other hand, it remains that he has attacked literally everyone he's met in the comic, so I don't get why it's suddenly confusing that he's doing so. Unless you are--as I said to begin with--putting weight on his paper-thin pretense that he's something other than a killing machine (say, by trying to present one of the encounters where he attacked someone as somehow evidence that he doesn't attack everyone).

----------


## Keltest

> On the one hand, what I asked was obviously wrong; the goblin adventurers _survived_ meeting him. I should have said "anyone who has encountered Kore and not been attacked by him."
> 
> On the other hand, it remains that he has attacked literally everyone he's met in the comic, so I don't get why it's suddenly confusing that he's doing so. Unless you are--as I said to begin with--putting weight on his paper-thin pretense that he's something other than a killing machine (say, by trying to present one of the encounters where he attacked someone as somehow evidence that he doesn't attack everyone).


You asked a question and you got your answer. Kore doesnt just mindlessly slaughter everybody he encounters. His logic is twisted worse than he is, but its still logic, its mostly internally consistent (if wrong) and we've seen his decision making process play out multiple times.

----------


## Anteros

We also know that he actually had a good impression of Forgath's clan until recently.  He obviously has interacted with them in the past.

----------


## Vinyadan

Until now, I think all encounters with Kore have devolved in a fight. In the case of Kin, Kore was about to test her identity when she attacked, but it's possible that he would have kept probing her until he found something that justified an attack.
Kore also hasn't been shown with allies. That's remarkable, since, as he says, adventurers tend to band together.

I can't find the source, but I was sure that he's on record attacking paladins (other than Ears) who had the Axe. And Forgath considered him a scourge for the Realm, not just for the monsters in it, and went "oh no" when he showed up.

So whether he really doesn't try to kill everyone he meets is up in the air. As far as I am concerned, he definitely gives off a The Wolf and the Lamb feel. But that's just my feel.

EDIT: Unrelated, but... wouldn't it be funny, if a click ate the Axe?

----------


## tomaO2

Kore seems to take the basic starting point that monsters must all be killed. So he kills all monsters. If non monsters are found helping, or just associating with monsters, then he kills them. This can expand to killing entire families of people if he deems them to be monster collaborators, but he still doesn't write off entire races. He will kill everyone of Forgath's clan, but not all dwarves. He is also obsessed with the axe, so he would probably kill anyone in possession of it. 

We know from his conversation with Kin that he's been asked, multiple times, if he wanted help in killing monsters, to which he always says no. Kin not asking to join him was the reason he decided something was wrong. 

In addition, while he did kill the dwarf boy, he very deliberately did it last, and he had to talk himself into it. Hiding behind a table doesn't protect, as was shown. Kore also doesn't simply just attack immediately, or else he would have murdered the blind goblin. He's supposed to something of a combat pragmatist while fighting. While he doesn't really go for ambushes, he still can fight smart. I also don't think he is the type that needs to kill a monster personally. Therefore, the logical course of action was to either do nothing, or focus fire his shots in order to assist the adventurers.

Even if you ignore that though, another characteristic of his is the fact that he methodically collects his arrows after shooting them. He doesn't have infinite ammo . I even recall Elli talking about this being the reason Kore decided to finish the blind goblin with the axe, instead of making another shot (after the first one slowed his movement down), was because was a small risk of something happening to the shot. 

All of a sudden, Kore's shooting a ton of bolts over a small bridge, in a wasteful manner, and likely to lose quite a few of the shots he made. Doesn't really fit with his previous actions.

Was just bad tactics.

----------


## Traab

It was him facing 6 heavily armed enemies on a flat surface with no cover other than his shield. Simple good sense to try and kill or weaken them at range before closing in. Iirc in the monster den with the dwarf kid he fired off a buttload of rounds as well because the place was swarming with monsters that would have gleefully dogpiled him if they managed to go for a grapple.

----------


## Anteros

> It was him facing 6 heavily armed enemies on a flat surface with no cover other than his shield. Simple good sense to try and kill or weaken them at range before closing in. Iirc in the monster den with the dwarf kid he fired off a buttload of rounds as well because the place was swarming with monsters that would have gleefully dogpiled him if they managed to go for a grapple.


Well, it could have been him and 2 others facing off against 4 enemies if he wasn't a moron. He knows they weren't with the Goblins before, and they're clearly trying to kill them, but he shoots at Minmax and Forgath anyway.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

new comic is up

----------


## Ibrinar

Well that is one way to get that info in the story, not a great way but certainly a way.^^ Now it is time to cut of a horn.

----------


## Traab

Time for him to do some tumbling till he can get a high enough bonus to hack off a horn.

----------


## tomaO2

_
Previous update was on October 17th, it is now October 30th.
Thirteen days since the last one. Back to under 2 weeks. 
That makes update number 13 of the speedy schedule!_

On the update itself, looks like I got played. I completely misunderstood the question. She wasn't asking if Complains could, theoretically, be a good chief, if he was made to be one, she was asking if it was possible to become a chief.

On other words, a less confusing way to ask the question is to say "could you become the chief of your goblin tribe?" In which case, the answer is still yes, because, apparently, you can just revoke the "empty goblin status" without any issues. Therefore, I still don't like this question.

I had no idea that "empty goblin" was the actual name of the punishment, I thought it was a general term. 

I can only assume Complains making his clan legendary status would have to do with him dumping all the rules that bound the goblins in the first place. We actually going to get a reason for goblins to have not done this already then? Really disappointed that this is it. Like, I was hoping that there would be a bit more story related to Complains actions at the camp, but this is the first time it was brought up since Chief pronounced him an empty goblin. 

Anyway, for the remaining goblins, if they can pick up any lesson from this, pick the opposite of whatever the first impression is. Obvious answers are wrong.

----------


## tyckspoon

> Anyway, for the remaining goblins, if they can pick up any lesson from this, pick the opposite of whatever the first impression is. Obvious answers are wrong.


Not quite - Vorpal knew what was on the sheet. He just didn't like that answer, and   the angel encouraged him to give the answer that he wanted to be true rather than what he knew was actually on his sheet. (Since goblin names are given by their tellers and he is now the teller of his clan.. could he officially re-name himself? Chief wasn't supposed to be named Chief, apparently, so they must have some leeway in giving a goblin a name that differs from what they're supposedly fated to be..)

If anything, the key lesson is that it doesn't really matter whether or not you answer the question correctly - the important part is finding a way to exit through the 'go back to life' portal rather than through the 'fall into death' portal.

----------


## Wildstag

> (Since goblin names are given by their tellers and he is now the teller of his clan.. could he officially re-name himself? Chief wasn't supposed to be named Chief, apparently, so they must have some leeway in giving a goblin a name that differs from what they're supposedly fated to be..)


I think the leeway results in bad outcomes, unless there is some god-granted alternative. The one priest is able to ignore the naming ceremony, but then his clan also has bs exceptions. 

In the partys clans case, ignoring the destined name to instead grant the name Chief resulted in their gods disfavor. If the clan is strong enough to be able to ignore their gods will, I guess evidence points to leeway.

----------


## Vinyadan

Are they gonna rename Big Ears too? Because that sounds like a decent idea.

----------


## Anteros

> Are they gonna rename Big Ears too? Because that sounds like a decent idea.


Why?  He's just gonna get those ears back.

----------


## Gez

> Why?  He's just gonna get those ears back.


No, he's gonna get replacement ears instead. One will be made of a rock-like material and have the appearance of weighing one ton, because it'll be big enough for Big Ears to use it as a shield. It'll be inscribed with a series of complicated glowing runes. The other ear will be made of some ethereal shimmering force, translucent but distorting what's seen through it by diffraction effects. It will also glow and shelter the souls rescued from Kore and, later, from Hell, adding a lot of tiny faces to draw.

----------


## Emperor Time

> No, he's gonna get replacement ears instead. One will be made of a rock-like material and have the appearance of weighing one ton, because it'll be big enough for Big Ears to use it as a shield. It'll be inscribed with a series of complicated glowing runes. The other ear will be made of some ethereal shimmering force, translucent but distorting what's seen through it by diffraction effects. It will also glow and shelter the souls rescued from Kore and, later, from Hell, adding a lot of tiny faces to draw.


That sounds too on the nose to happen this time. But I guess it could happen yet again.

----------


## Vinyadan

> That sounds too on the nose to happen this time. But I guess it could happen yet again.


Tempts Fate has an eye under his foot, so Ears might really grow them back on his nose.

----------


## Lurkmoar

Huh. So the author and I the reader have very different ideas about how a good aligned celestial creature would behave with a mortal. 

That's... neat.

----------


## The Glyphstone

I did laugh at "it's adorable you think you have a Charisma bonus".

----------


## Traab

Yeah im still trying to figure out what the point is with all this. Like, narratively speaking, and in universe. What is this angel trying to accomplish here?

----------


## Keltest

> Yeah im still trying to figure out what the point is with all this. Like, narratively speaking, and in universe. What is this angel trying to accomplish here?


Nothing, probably. She's an intern or the equivalent doing a job as a dungeon gimmick. Everything about her says "Im bored at work."

----------


## Ibrinar

Giving lesson in such a way that she can drop them after, she probably just finds it funny. Or probably what Keltest said it is still a dungeon trap even if a weird one. No idea why an angel is involved with it though.

----------


## Vinyadan

She said "because I'm still paying for a law that I broke a long time ago". So maybe she got stuck there as a punishment, or maybe she has a fine to pay and that's one of her jobs.

----------


## Kish

She's high; that potentially explains a lot.

----------


## Vinyadan

Update! 

*Spoiler*
Show

Does the N/N on the sword have any meaning?

----------


## Traab

Well this just gets dumber and dumber. *Spoiler*
Show

This lunatic angel is REALLY dedicated to murdering these goblins. I dont think its going to go well if the rest were to try and pay a visit to get their bonuses and such. At first i was like, wait, hold up, did she just make him chief after declaring he was already chief? Then i went back and read that the old chief just marked him as the next one, not officially declared him to BE chief. So at least there isnt that for a plot hole.

----------


## Radar

> Well this just gets dumber and dumber. *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> This lunatic angel is REALLY dedicated to murdering these goblins. I dont think its going to go well if the rest were to try and pay a visit to get their bonuses and such. At first i was like, wait, hold up, did she just make him chief after declaring he was already chief? Then i went back and read that the old chief just marked him as the next one, not officially declared him to BE chief. So at least there isnt that for a plot hole.


*Spoiler*
Show

I do not know, if it is being dedicated or just very strict rules the angel needs to adhere to. She is there as punishment after all. Complains being part demon most likely does not generate any sympathy either even if this might be on an unconscious level. Still, you are right that after two consecutive times people cheated their way out of the trap, she might get particularly angry. We also know that Complains took her horn, so she will not be an exemplary ray of sunshine. Aside from that, I really liked her rant about needlessly pompous rituals and the "just say 'hi' like a regular goblin" bit particularly funny. Reminds me a bit of witches in the Discworld and their rather casual relations with the deities:
_Most witches dont believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they dont believe in them. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman._

----------


## Vinyadan

EDIT: As it turned out, the cause wasn't Edge, but graphics card settings which impacted Edge, but not Firefox. So Edge was actually innocent.

Unrelated to the comic, but wow, Edge cannot handle images without creating lots of artifacts. I thought it was just with jpg, but even this PNG I created to demonstrate it shows them on my PC.

*Spoiler: Screenshot Comparison FF vs Edge, old strip*
Show

----------


## tomaO2

> _
> Previous update was on October 17th, it is now October 30th.
> Thirteen days since the last one. Back to under 2 weeks. 
> That makes update number 13 of the speedy schedule!_


_
Previous update was on October 30th, it is now November 17th.
Nineteen days since the last one. Still under 3 weeks!
That makes update number 14 of the speedy schedule!_

We must be getting close to the point where Elli has earned enough money for the voice surgery she is doing the comics for. I think it was 20k to pay for everything, and we're over 18k now. One more update, maybe two, assuming no additional expenses. We'll see what happens to updates after the goal is reached. Personal guess is that we go back to maybe one every month or two. Clearly, she has no interest in doing updates for the sake of it, or she would have actually done it during the many, many, *many,* times she promised better updates over the past decade. 


Okay, so current situation is that chief simultaneously negated Complain's empty goblin status, and selected him as chief. Then an angel made Complains chief. 

Chief was made chief via the teller. She used her magic to determine who was the best chief, found out that Thaco would destroy the clan, so she selected Chief instead. Seems like the selection process and the act of becoming chief were simultaneous. Seems like it's supposed to be the teller that does this though, not the chief. Chiefs do not name their successors, because they are supposed to die before the decision gets made, not before. Plus, that they want, vs what is good for the clan, are not always the same thing.

Fumbles was selected by... deciding he wanted to be the teller. I guess it doesn't really matter whom the teller is? Anyone can make a teller but only a teller can normally make someone a chief. Might be the case that there is normally an apprentice teller, but there is no evidence of that.

To me,  it's feeling like a case of, "it's the way it is so the story can happen". Chief may have had the authority to undo his decision to make Complains an empty goblin, but he shouldn't have been able to officially select Complains as chief, because chiefs could just always pick their children as the next chief then. 

There is also the issue of it not just being up to goblins, it's also supposed to be a god matter. That's why the chief bonus was shared with both Chief and Thaco. It's pretty clear that chiefs are not supposed to just willy, nilly, decide the successor, so I don't agree with the story's line of reasoning. 

Still don't like these question and answer sessions.

----------


## Traab

The way I see it going is, chief didnt name complains as chief, he rescinded the empty goblin status making him eligible. The ANGEL made him chief just now as a sort of "Eff you, I can do what i want as an actual representative of your god" Normally the teller would do that, but thats as a representative of the goblin god, so an angel doing it is just as valid.

----------


## Vinyadan

I'm wondering whether the Chief and the Teller only deal with the warcamp, and the actual clan village has its own authorities. Otherwise, our four heroes just* took an important decision for the whole clan. But maybe that's the norm, and the closest companions of the Chief and the Teller always wield all authority.

*in-comic time.

----------


## Anteros

You know, I have to wonder why they don't just send Ears to meet the Angel, drop the axe off, and have her deliver it to the Gobgod.

----------


## Kantaki

> You know, I have to wonder why they don't just send Ears to meet the Angel, drop the axe off, and have her deliver it to the Gobgod.


Err... The blasted thing turns the plane it's on into a part of hell. Putting it on a presumably upper* plane strikes me as a terrible idea.

*Or at least not lower plane.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> You know, I have to wonder why they don't just send Ears to meet the Angel, drop the axe off, and have her deliver it to the Gobgod.



that would make a boring story.

----------


## tomaO2

Or maybe it would get rod of a dumb story arc instead, so we can move on to something decent?

 I'm not sold on the idea of some level 5s single handedly saving the world from a hell inspired apocalypse. I really think this is a quest that is way outside their level, and that there will be a bunch of cheats in order to pull this off, and there has already been a bit much of that already. These items and powers ups are a bit ridiculous. 

This is supposed to be D&D, not shounen.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

i mean, do they really HAVE any goals outside get the axe to hell at this point? Return to the clan maybe? But then what? Defeat Kore i guess? But they're really more running then anything else.

Just because they're level 5 now doesn't mean they need to be in Hell tomorrow. The whole point of them taking adventurer levels was to grow stronger and be able to protect their village better. it'd make sense that this quest would take them on a journey that levels them up along the way. With possible "Cheats" as you put them, i could see them doing some actual hell-diving at like, level ten maybe? Still out of their league for the bigger fights, but survivable for the smaller more common stuff. It's not like they're trying to fight pit fiends and demon lords after all, they just need to get deep enough in to drop off the axe and get out. if that can get done quickly and quietly, they'd take it.

----------


## Traab

To me its not really cheats as such, they get monty haul loot true, but so does every other group of adventurers. On top of that, they are dealing with some high lethality adventures, the drow squad has been eliminated like 2-3x till they gave up on respawning as something else, dies horribly got to watch his lizardman party member, err, die horribly, lets not even take into account his issues with losing an arm, I think twice. The gap already lost one party member who now gets to enjoy eternal torment, had one member get his mind shattered by torture before he came back to himself, another is literally turning into a demon, a third had to chop off his own freaking ears to use a magic item, etc etc etc. This setting is BRUTAL, so a few overgenerous magic items and reward levels seems a fair exchange for this tomb of horrors planet they live on.

----------


## Lurkmoar

> This setting is BRUTAL, so a few overgenerous magic items and reward levels seems a fair exchange for this tomb of horrors planet they live on.


To be completely pedantic, the original Tomb of Horrors had crap loot.

Unless you had just stole the Adamantine doors at the beginning and called it a day.  :Small Big Grin: 

Back to the webcomic, they should have gotten to Hell *yesterday*, last we saw of Forgarth.

----------


## Traab

> To be completely pedantic, the original Tomb of Horrors had crap loot.
> 
> Unless you had just stole the Adamantine doors at the beginning and called it a day. 
> 
> Back to the webcomic, they should have gotten to Hell *yesterday*, last we saw of Forgarth.


Yeah but to be even more pedantic, the tomb of horrors was meant to murder everyone who played it and make them miserable. This is a setting where the goal is to be just as arbitrarily lethal, but they get great loot for managing to survive. :p In other words, a setting some players might actually LIKE as long as they dont get too attached to their characters. Crazy loot with absurd effects all homebrew that lets you do neat stuff if you are clever enough and in exchange you have to be really careful to avoid the latest method of killing you all the dm came up with. 

As for the comic, one thing in still wondering is if this thing with the angel is all an act. So far she has "tested" two of the party members. They both "failed" the test but despite trying to kill them they come back stronger than when they started. Higher level, new gear, whatever. I know in a lot of fiction that deals with various types of heaven and hell where there is a balance involved where neither side can interfere too directly or else the other side will interfere more directly and then its armegeddon. So both sides cheat. They play games where their side "just happens" to benefit and they totally didnt break the rules, nudge nudge, wink win. So here we have an angel actually "trying" to kill these goblins, but they keep "escaping her clutches" and getting power ups which will help them survive their trip to hell. If she just descended from the skies and said, "Here is some loot, you all level up once or twice" that would break the rules about direct interference. But this? Hey, she TRIED to kill them! Just pure luck she failed! And hey! That one goblin totally cut off her horn! Sure that makes it a terrifying holy weapon against demons such as are found in hell, but thats a total coincidence!

----------


## Vinyadan

Wait a sec, is "Free Chief from Kore's Prison" the same as "Free Fumbles from Goblinslayer's Prison", all over again? 

Both characters left the party of their own volition, while deceiving the party (Chief alleged a shattered spine, Vorpal sneaked out during the night). Both put themselves in danger without reaching their objective (Chief's tortured screams lead the goblins back, Vorpal lost the doll to the Guards). Both find themselves helpless and tortured, and, in both cases, the GAP get to see and talk to the prisoner without being able to help, and Ears doesn't want to let go (the sewer scene in Brassmoon and Chief's soul).

----------


## tomaO2

> i mean, do they really HAVE any goals outside get the axe to hell at this point? Return to the clan maybe? But then what? Defeat Kore i guess? But they're really more running then anything else.
> 
> Just because they're level 5 now doesn't mean they need to be in Hell tomorrow. The whole point of them taking adventurer levels was to grow stronger and be able to protect their village better. it'd make sense that this quest would take them on a journey that levels them up along the way. With possible "Cheats" as you put them


If Hell was introduced in a way like the gates were in OOTS, that would be fine and all. It would make for a perfectly good overarching quest. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure Hell is already spreading all around the world, if the segments with Forgath are anything to go by. Time is not in abundance. I don't believe they have the time to wait until level 7, much less level 10. The cheats let them beat CR levels that they shouldn't be able to win against, which lets them fight super strong monsters and level up at an absurdly fast pace. That, and a ton of things going just exactly right. Such as Vorpal getting a super big teller power up. Not even sure of the mechanics of that, but I'd imagine he now counts as a pretty strong caster. 

Honestly, it all especially comes across as a cheat since no one else has really strong items. Kore doesn't have anything remotely comparable to Chief's spear of return, or Forgath's beard of invulnerability.  Guy is supposed to be a combat pragmatist but doesn't even grab that spear and use it, after killing Chief. Goblin Slayer is another example of a person that has been stated to be a "high level adventurer" but doesn't have any good magical items. Magic items are supposedly all over the place but it seems pretty consistent that the only time a good item shows up it will be either destroyed, or end up as something for the GAP/Forgath, Kin, and Minmax, to eventually acquire. 

What items did psion Minmax have? Guy went through the dungeon a thousand times, but didn't have a single high powered item? Meanwhile, Minmax gets a bunch of stuff from a single run through. The one group in the Maze of Many that was explicitly shown to have cool gear was that group with a bunch of rings, which were promptly taken by the adventurers. Powerful items are always there simply so the main characters can get them, not because everyone has access to them. I feel a disconnect with how items are gained by the protagonists vs the lack of them showing up *anywhere else*.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

Kore probably doesn't like using weapons "Tainted" by "Evil beings", because then the items themselves would have that "Seed of evil" thing. he might even actively destroy them if he has the time.

Goblinslayer as far as we can tell, is maybe around level three to five, and he retired. Plus the dude had an infinite supply of any weapons he wanted thanks to that whole half-tree thing he had going on, i wouldn't be surprised if those were +1 by sheer nature of being generated via magical tree-growth. Any other items he collected he may have sold off to fund his retirement, again, he has infinite weapons at his literal fingertips. Why bother with that other stuff when he can have a bunch of money and power from them?

----------


## tomaO2

I... _think_ high leveled is considered 6-8. I feel like I remember this being mentioned in the past.

Man, how weird is that though? The GAP is soon going to be considered high level, after a week or two.

----------


## Vinyadan

We have seen an NPC with a powerful magical artifact (Saral Caine). Goblinslayer actually had enough magic weapons lying around to arm 500 crossbowmen, and  a lot of property he could have bought with money from selling other items. In general, however, I think that it's not strange that the world bends over backwards for PCs, as it's the whole point of becoming one. Also, as one of the strips observed, Herbert is Monty Haul, albeit with limits (can't remember which page it is).

I don't think Kore can actually throw anything because of his armour, and he already has a ranged option. It would have made him more menacing if he had collected the spear, however.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

idk. when you're in a world of level 1/2 commoners, a 3rd level ranger might count as "high level". or at least be able to say he is.


When you're a dirt-farming peasant, someone who can make fire appear from his hands doesn't seem a whole lot different then someone who can conjure a wall of force around himself. they're both powerful magic-y people who can kill you with a thought. the idea that one is somehow stronger then the other probably doesn't cross your mind too often.

----------


## Vinyadan

Goblinslayer was also prone to self-aggrandisement, if the statue and his reaction to being laughed at mean anything. Plus, he needed to boast about himself to get his political program approved. His claim of having saved Brassmoon also might have been spurious, since the Goblins observe that Hawl solved the conflict between the orcs and the city (again, I can't remember when that happened...). However, we do have a minimum level for him, as he casts a spell (magic fang) that pegs him at the very least at level 4, if he has bonus spells granted by wisdom, otherwise at lvl 6 minimum.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

oh it was level 4? is thought it was level 3 that he got that, my mistake.

level 4-6 would make sense as a "High level" claim thin this world i think.

----------


## Traab

> idk. when you're in a world of level 1/2 commoners, a 3rd level ranger might count as "high level". or at least be able to say he is.
> 
> 
> When you're a dirt-farming peasant, someone who can make fire appear from his hands doesn't seem a whole lot different then someone who can conjure a wall of force around himself. they're both powerful magic-y people who can kill you with a thought. the idea that one is somehow stronger then the other probably doesn't cross your mind too often.


Considering all you have to do is just SAY you are now a class and you get those skills at level 1, its kind of an odd world. I know as a dirt grubbing farmer I would probably pick cleric or wizard or something as cantrips are handy as heck. Never have to hit 2, just go about your life with the occasional use of mending or whatever, maybe a first level heal spell as a just in case clause. Life would be incredibly easier that way. Save a burning hands spell if you have reason to fear bandit attacks or something and you can take them down fairly easily. (11 hp versus 3d6 to everything in range that fails its save, even half damage if they make the save brings them pretty close to death potentially)

----------


## BaronOfHell

But isn't part of the point if the farmer chooses this easier way, he also has an "adventure" no matter if he wants or not, e.g. with random encounters suited to his level? Plus we know in this world, there is no "suited to your level".

On the other hand, I don't think the random person who isn't an adventure goes through the mess we see because then I couldn't see there e.g. being a civilization.

----------


## Traab

> But isn't part of the point if the farmer chooses this easier way, he also has an "adventure" no matter if he wants or not, e.g. with random encounters suited to his level? Plus we know in this world, there is no "suited to your level".
> 
> On the other hand, I don't think the random person who isn't an adventure goes through the mess we see because then I couldn't see there e.g. being a civilization.


Its possible I suppose that random stuff could just show up at his farm if he declares himself to be a wizard, but so far our only interaction with this declare yourself a class thing is with the GAP and the brief panel of the other monsters saying what class they want to be but we never hear from them again so no telling what happened there. Also, its not like being without class levels makes you safe in this setting, the death toll is pretty atrocious just from what we see. 

Now I kinda want to see this explored. Declaring yourself a class works but few people do it because they know the law of the world is once you do your odds of death climb even higher than they do without class levels. Its kind of like a curse on reality here. I dont know if anyone has ever read the mercedes lackey 500 kingdoms series of books but the general gist is The Tradition is a magical power that pervades everything where if your life starts to resemble a classical fairy tale this force actually bends reality around you to make it happen. So if you are a young girl and your father dies after remarrying, you may find yourself living a cinderella life because your stepmother will start making you do the chores instead of HER daughters until you are basically the unpaid servant of the family. So on and so forth.  This world is much the same. You can declare yourself a class and get the abilities instantly added on, but in exchange you are now an "adventurer" so quest hooks and random encounters are going to appear before you and good luck avoiding them.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

i think it might just be a case of people not KNOWING you can declare yourself a class. both the Goblins and the Monster group didn't know you could do that, it took Vorpal's extreme out-of-the-box thinking to even come up with the idea. Both the Goblins and Monsters responded with a "Wait... you can do that?" when they heard about it.


Human adventurers could be something else entirely. spending literal years training specifically to become adventurers, not realizing they could just declare themselves one and be done with it. Or perhaps for them it is, or is believed to be a feat reserved for those who have a "Player" (Something referred to as akin to a family lineage) that others can't obtain. If you're not born with one, then you can't become one.

----------


## Douglas

> I dont know if anyone has ever read the mercedes lackey 500 kingdoms series of books but the general gist is The Tradition is a magical power that pervades everything where if your life starts to resemble a classical fairy tale this force actually bends reality around you to make it happen. So if you are a young girl and your father dies after remarrying, you may find yourself living a cinderella life because your stepmother will start making you do the chores instead of HER daughters until you are basically the unpaid servant of the family. So on and so forth.


I've read it. It's a great series. On a side note, it especially sucks if the one thing in your life that does _not_ resemble the fairy tale is the person who would take the role of your heroic rescuer. In the case of Cinderella, for example, if the local royal heir is a child, a woman, or already married, and therefore unable to meet the tale's qualifications of "a handsome bachelor prince".

----------


## Radar

> I've read it. It's a great series. On a side note, it especially sucks if the one thing in your life that does _not_ resemble the fairy tale is the person who would take the role of your heroic rescuer. In the case of Cinderella, for example, if the local royal heir is a child, a woman, or already married, and therefore unable to meet the tale's qualifications of "a handsome bachelor prince".


Well... in that case you simply fall into tracks of a different story.

----------


## Traab

> I've read it. It's a great series. On a side note, it especially sucks if the one thing in your life that does _not_ resemble the fairy tale is the person who would take the role of your heroic rescuer. In the case of Cinderella, for example, if the local royal heir is a child, a woman, or already married, and therefore unable to meet the tale's qualifications of "a handsome bachelor prince".


True, but there are options as the main character of the first book learns since she was in exactly that position. In fact thats the entire point of it. That there are people like fairy godmothers and such who work behind the scenes to try and protect the people stuck in the bad fairy tales, and take care of people who are stuck in a scenario where they wont get a happily ever after, or even a true ending to their misery due to not everything lining up no matter what the tradition tries. And of course the evil ones who try to exploit the system as long as possible for personal gain. I just really like the entire premise of this universe.

----------


## Lvl 2 Expert

> i think it might just be a case of people not KNOWING you can declare yourself a class. both the Goblins and the Monster group didn't know you could do that, it took Vorpal's extreme out-of-the-box thinking to even come up with the idea. Both the Goblins and Monsters responded with a "Wait... you can do that?" when they heard about it.
> 
> 
> Human adventurers could be something else entirely. spending literal years training specifically to become adventurers, not realizing they could just declare themselves one and be done with it. Or perhaps for them it is, or is believed to be a feat reserved for those who have a "Player" (Something referred to as akin to a family lineage) that others can't obtain. If you're not born with one, then you can't become one.


There is a comic where two guardsmen are talking about how one of them "is going to do it onw of these days", become an adventurer and be done with this crummy job. The reason they don't do it is that the first three levels are lethal, you're very likely to die trying before you get rich. So at least among humans there seems to be the connotation that picking a class means going on an adventure. Of course, all the monsters were fighting adventurers and such already anyway, so what's the difference?

----------


## The Glyphstone

> Now I kinda want to see this explored. Declaring yourself a class works but few people do it because they know the law of the world is once you do your odds of death climb even higher than they do without class levels. Its kind of like a curse on reality here. I dont know if anyone has ever read the mercedes lackey 500 kingdoms series of books but the general gist is The Tradition is a magical power that pervades everything where if your life starts to resemble a classical fairy tale this force actually bends reality around you to make it happen. So if you are a young girl and your father dies after remarrying, you may find yourself living a cinderella life because your stepmother will start making you do the chores instead of HER daughters until you are basically the unpaid servant of the family. So on and so forth.  This world is much the same. You can declare yourself a class and get the abilities instantly added on, but in exchange you are now an "adventurer" so quest hooks and random encounters are going to appear before you and good luck avoiding them.


Can't say I have read that series, but I have read the Indexing books by Seanan Mcguire, which have a very similar premise applied to the modern world. Narrative is real, it's recursive, and if you fall into a certain template of traits/actions, the Narrative will start warping reality to play out your Story. This is not just bad for you, but can be horribly lethal for everyone around you because the Stories follow Grimm logic instead of Disney logic - one example given is a Cinderella story triggering in a small town, and everyone except Cinderella herself proceeding to die of coma-induced dehydration before they're discovered. The protagonists are basically the Fairytale MIB, keeping Narrative incidents undercover and trying to minimize casualties caused by them.

----------


## Traab

> Can't say I have read that series, but I have read the Indexing books by Seanan Mcguire, which have a very similar premise applied to the modern world. Narrative is real, it's recursive, and if you fall into a certain template of traits/actions, the Narrative will start warping reality to play out your Story. This is not just bad for you, but can be horribly lethal for everyone around you because the Stories follow Grimm logic instead of Disney logic - one example given is a Cinderella story triggering in a small town, and everyone except Cinderella herself proceeding to die of coma-induced dehydration before they're discovered. The protagonists are basically the Fairytale MIB, keeping Narrative incidents undercover and trying to minimize casualties caused by them.


Yeah sounds pretty close. Though im assuming you meant sleeping beauty for everyone to fall asleep? But yeah, in this series, an evil witch could move into a town, plant a garden and wait for a pregnant woman to get cravings so the foolish husband steals from her, setting up the rapunzel storyline. She gets to drain magic from the entire process growing stronger and the tradition will just KEEP throwing princes at her till one of them succeeds so this could go on for decades before she gets chased off or possibly killed. Unless the fairy godparent type people spot it and move in to provide assistance.

----------


## Vinyadan

Fox is just an adventurer, right? Not a PC? She explicitly wanted to determine herself and was on a collision course with laws and expectations, so it isn't strange that she became one, even as Grem finds it disgraceful.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

yeah, Fox, the GAP, and the Monsters are all monsters with adventuring levels. Only Forgath, Minmax, the Drow Trio (and various incarnations, possibly including Bowst and co) have been explicitly labeled has having a player-lineage.

Sarl caine, Goblinslayer, Kore, and possibly Bowst and co MIGHT have player-lineages. though it's not explicitly stated.

----------


## Vinyadan

The GAP is made up of PCs though, or at least Vorpal is Goblins - 09/02/2005 (goblinscomic.com) and Goblins - 02/03/2006 (goblinscomic.com)

----------


## The Glyphstone

> Yeah sounds pretty close. Though im assuming you meant sleeping beauty for everyone to fall asleep? But yeah, in this series, an evil witch could move into a town, plant a garden and wait for a pregnant woman to get cravings so the foolish husband steals from her, setting up the rapunzel storyline. She gets to drain magic from the entire process growing stronger and the tradition will just KEEP throwing princes at her till one of them succeeds so this could go on for decades before she gets chased off or possibly killed. Unless the fairy godparent type people spot it and move in to provide assistance.


Yeah, sorry, Sleeping Beauty. The 'fairy godmother sort of angle applies to the Index Bureau's agents, who are often recruited from averted or broken stories because it makes them immune to being reality-warped into a different role. The main character/lead agent is a Snow White, for instance- she has corpse pale skin and constantly fights a heroin-level craving for apples, because eating one would put her in a coma. But she can confront a Peter Pan without being turned into his Wendy.

They try to 'break' stories before they can fully form by sending them off the rails, and if that fails, guide it along a variant that causes the least harm - for example, resolving a Goldilocks story by having the girl swear to never steal again, instead of having her torn limb from limb as a warning to other thieves.

----------


## tomaO2

It's all speculation. The life of a goblin isn't really all that long anyway, since they just wait around in war camps to get slaughtered by adventurers, so why not make yourself a bit tougher? Also, the fact that war camps are a thing suggest that there are are, in fact, dedicated newbie zones for leveling up. They aren't even allowed to use magical items, for crying out loud. 

Then there are some that go out to do dangerous things. If you are going to search the deadly dungeon anyway, wouldn't it be better to do it as an actual adventurer? Wouldn't it be better for a few war camp members to become adventurers when being attacked, as opposed to staying super weak and dying?

Then there are the magical items, one decent magical item can be just as strong as turning into an adventurer in the first place, and all the deadly dungeons also seem to have rewards. Hell, that Maze of Many dungeon apparently will always eventually allow for success, so that should be a common grinding spot. 

I'm not convinced by the idea that things are innately more dangerous for an adventurer, as opposed to anyone else. Could be adventurers just look for danger, and are more likely to find it, or to fight back instead of running and hiding. Fox managed to live a fairly normal life in between her adventurers, until she was captured. The only thing stopping anyone, as far as the narrative goes, is that they either don't know they can do it, or they think it's wrong to do so.

----------


## Steven

I think the issue you're running into here is that the comic used to be a lot more about jokes (Deciding to be a player character on a whim for example) and is now much more serious. 

There is also all the conflicting stuff around what a "Player" means. On the one hand we have the drow characters who seemed to be played straight up as players playing a game, and then we have Ellipsis declaring that the concept of a player is actually sorta like a lineage because physics.

Everyone is struggling with that because it fundamentally makes no sense when you try and reconcile what we're shown in the comic with what we're told by the author IRL.

----------


## BaronOfHell

> Everyone is struggling with that because it fundamentally makes no sense when you try and reconcile what we're shown in the comic with what we're told by the author IRL.


In my experience, often when reading something really interesting, an easy way to ruin it for yourself is to learn more about the author's word of god opinions about their own work.
It is not always the case, but it is a risk that I think is only worth taking if you're already very confident in the author or you feel there is nothing else left to explore.

In other words, I don't think we have to let the author dictate anything he/she has not stated within the work we enjoy.

----------


## tomaO2

This whole "there are no players" thing is a retcon anyways. If player characters were not controlled by players, then it would have come up YEARS ago. Why would Elli not have corrected bad impressions during the first, book, or the second, or when Minmax kissed Forgath? 

Meanwhile, all this speculation on who have players. Were the GAP being played? Dies Horribly's group done by players? Is Kore a high level player? Questions, questions, questions, with no comment from the author. Then, one day, a mention that there are no players in the first place?

I don't know why she decided to make this shift, but it just caused a lot of confusion, and frankly ruined a lot of the fun for people interested in that thing. For example, there was couple cool youtube videos that showed what the various adventures might have looked at from the player side of the board. Good stuff.

It was something that didn't need to be said. Just a waste to throw that in. Would have been fine early on, but doing it so late in the game just doesn't come across as being respectful to the worldbuilding, and community, that came beforehand.

----------


## Vinyadan

> In my experience, often when reading something really interesting, an easy way to ruin it for yourself is to learn more about the author's word of god opinions about their own work.
> It is not always the case, but it is a risk that I think is only worth taking if you're already very confident in the author or you feel there is nothing else left to explore.
> 
> In other words, I don't think we have to let the author dictate anything he/she has not stated within the work we enjoy.


I think it also depends on the work (and the writer). Some works are based on very tightly defined teams and in-universe rules. I think it's very easy to break these. By comparison, works that mostly deal in verisimilitude, plot and a deep character psychology can become more interesting, if the writer sets out clearly all the things that were implied in the book (my favourite is how Tolkien explained Denethor's vision of himself and Gondor).

----------


## Vinyadan

New page: Goblins - Page 20 2020 (goblinscomic.com)

----------


## Keltest

I cant decide if i like or hate this angel. On the one hand, i identify with her "its just my job, i dont really want to be here" attitude so much since i work the alcohol register at the store im at. On the other hand, she's and angel. She should be taking this at least a little bit more seriously.

----------


## Radar

> I cant decide if i like or hate this angel. On the one hand, i identify with her "its just my job, i dont really want to be here" attitude so much since i work the alcohol register at the store im at. On the other hand, she's and angel. She should be taking this at least a little bit more seriously.


She probably should. Keep in mind that she was tasked with this job as a punishment and she did admit she is a bit high at the moment, which does say something about her overall work ethics.

That being said Complains is fully justified to feel how he feels right now. This is precisely the key issue goblins and many other monster races are facing.

----------


## Fyraltari

For a moment I thought she was going to say "What is this? Are you attacking me right now? Or you doing a Cirque du Soleil impression?"

Unnecessary summersaults for the win!

----------


## tomaO2

Wonder why the update wasn't posted on her twitter account.




> _
> Previous update was on October 30th, it is now November 17th.
> Nineteen days since the last one. Still under 3 weeks!
> That makes update number 14 of the speedy schedule!_


_
Previous update was on November 17th, it it now December 1.
Fourteen days since the last one.
That makes update number 15 of the speedy schedule!_ 

I'll admit the angel is losing a bit of the charm from when she questioned Vorpal, and I do have sympathy for Complains' viewpoint. Still, we need the fight. How else will they be able to get the angel horn that will help them survive against the demons when they go to hell in a few hours? 

Interesting to note that Complains seems to be completely over being upset with her though, for some reason. Like, he escaped during the middle of a rage, and he has some justifiable complaints on her actions but he immediately dropped them. From that I would assume she decided that she did something to placate him. Maybe something along the lines of helping him get away after proving his bravery by landing a hit on her?

----------


## Traab

> For a moment I thought she was going to say "What is this? Are you attacking me right now? Or you doing a Cirque du Soleil impression?"
> 
> Unnecessary summersaults for the win!


Nothing unnecessary about them. That sword gets stronger the more tumbles he does. I think it can actually hit +7 if he does enough acrobatics.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Nothing unnecessary about them. That sword gets stronger the more tumbles he does. I think it can actually hit +7 if he does enough acrobatics.


Oh, I completely forgot about that. Let me start over:

"Unnecessary sommersaults for the win!"
-Some enchanter, somewhere

----------


## Radar

> Nothing unnecessary about them. That sword gets stronger the more tumbles he does. I think it can actually hit +7 if he does enough acrobatics.


If fighting games taught me anything, it is that jumps with a somersault are much longer. If he wanted to reach that angel he needed to tumble in air. 

I mean, Street Fighter and International Karate cannot be wrong, right?

----------


## Draconi Redfir

Perform flips to establish dominance.

----------


## Traab

> If fighting games taught me anything, it is that jumps with a somersault are much longer. If he wanted to reach that angel he needed to tumble in air. 
> 
> I mean, Street Fighter and International Karate cannot be wrong, right?


Double jump your way to victory! What you do is jump, then in midair you jump again!

----------


## Radar

> Double jump your way to victory! What you do is jump, then in midair you jump again!


Friends do not let friends double jump. It's dangerous.

----------


## DataNinja

Huh. Didn't notice until the sword, but, apropos of nothing, the angel has a trans flag colour scheme for her accessories.

----------


## Kish

Oh wow, is this Elli's new avatar, since Minmax no longer fits her gender?

(And if so, why do her avatars keep having such an adversarial relationship with goblins in general and Complains in particular?)

----------


## Keltest

> Oh wow, is this Elli's new avatar, since Minmax no longer fits her gender?
> 
> (And if so, why do her avatars keep having such an adversarial relationship with goblins in general and Complains in particular?)


Presumably because as the author she's required to do mean things to the protagonists.

----------


## Vinyadan

There's a new comic and a new blog post.

----------


## Typewriter

> and a new blog post.


Did it get taken down or am I blind or something?

----------


## tomaO2

_Previous update was on December 1, it is now december... 29th.
28 days since the last one.
That makes update number 15 of the speedy schedule and 1 update that takes a month._

Not sure what this means. It's been a month, which is hardly speedy, but it's not as bad as we are used to. Possible that this has raised enough money to do the voice surgery, so no need to work anymore. Could also be that she decided to cancel her surgery, since I haven't really heard much about it for awhile and she... seems to be more comfortable with her voice? Hard to tell, given her wild mood swings. Gonna have to take a wait and see on this.

As for the update. Kinda confused.  I think Complains tore the horn off? An unarmed attack seems unlikely to do enough damage to take a piece of horn though. 

For the new blog.. I don't see any indication of it being taken down... There was a mention that a bunch of corrections were made to the page, so the page had time to be replaced, at least, so... maybe?

----------


## Draconi Redfir

considering the horn cut is flat and not shattered, i suspect it was cut off by the sword. My bet is he grabbed onto her horn, used the momentum to swing in the direction of the wall, and cut the horn off with his sword in order to head in the direction he wanted to go.

does kind of look like she moved her head out of the way though, so it might be that he intended to attack her, but she tilted her head out of the way, so he took a consolation prize in her horn, and focused on escaping instead.


To be fair to the update speed, it's December, holiday month. a lot of people are either really busy or decide to take it easy during that period of time.

----------


## Ciffo

Am I the only one that noticed that the lever was lowered down by the angel? It was just three strip ago...
I know, it could go back to the initial potition by itself, but there was no indication of such feature...
 :Small Eek:

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Am I the only one that noticed that the lever was lowered down by the angel? It was just three strip ago...
> I know, it could go back to the initial potition by itself, but there was no indication of such feature...


there are two levers. the one to her left kills you, the one to her right sends you home. She flipped the one on her left, Complains flipped the one on her right.

----------


## Ciffo

Ok you are right and I didnt noticed the different side... I'll vanish

----------


## Vinyadan

> Did it get taken down or am I blind or something?


My mistake, for some reason my rss reader put it forward as new content and I didn't check the date. It's actually from July.

----------


## Traab

She really is kinda bad at her job. Now im picturing thaco and ears going there and she gets progressively angrier and angrier and eventually it turns into less of a character test that they cant possibly win and becomes straight up "IM GONNA SMITE THE NEXT JERK GOBLIN THAT SHOWS UP!!!" Then it turns out to be big ears and it fails because you cant smite evil a paladin. At least not a good one.

----------


## sihnfahl

> does kind of look like she moved her head out of the way though, so it might be that he intended to attack her, but she tilted her head out of the way, so he took a consolation prize in her horn, and focused on escaping instead.


Or he realized that he wouldn't be able to take her on and used the 'attack' as a distraction to get at the lever...

----------


## Typewriter

> My mistake, for some reason my rss reader put it forward as new content and I didn't check the date. It's actually from July.


OK, cool cool, just wasn't sure if I was missing something. Thanks for double checking and letting me know!

----------


## PontificatusRex

Okay, that was hilarious. I love the idea of the Angel just being kind of incompetent. Probably why she got stuck on this lousy job in the first place.

----------


## Vinyadan

> She really is kinda bad at her job. Now im picturing thaco and ears going there and she gets progressively angrier and angrier and eventually it turns into less of a character test that they cant possibly win and becomes straight up "IM GONNA SMITE THE NEXT JERK GOBLIN THAT SHOWS UP!!!" Then it turns out to be big ears and it fails because you cant smite evil a paladin. At least not a good one.


I'm vaguely worried actually, is it two more goblins, plus a gargoyle piece? That would actually be interesting, the gargoyle, I mean.



> OK, cool cool, just wasn't sure if I was missing something. Thanks for double checking and letting me know!


You're welcome!

----------


## BarakDeathBlade

> Or he realized that he wouldn't be able to take her on and used the 'attack' as a distraction to get at the lever...


Or he just realized that pulling that lever was the only victory condition that mattered.

----------


## Traab

> Or he just realized that pulling that lever was the only victory condition that mattered.


I think he wanted both to escape and to strike at this symbol of everything he hates about the world and how it treats him and his kind. There is no way he was faking that rage. The very idea of an angel of his own god treating him so dismissively, like some high level adventurer who doesnt even see him as worth consideration, made him enraged. But he also isnt a mindless berserker so he knew he had to escape as well. So he gave her a good slash with his sword and took the exit.

----------


## BarakDeathBlade

> I think he wanted both to escape and to strike at this symbol of everything he hates about the world and how it treats him and his kind. There is no way he was faking that rage. The very idea of an angel of his own god treating him so dismissively, like some high level adventurer who doesnt even see him as worth consideration, made him enraged. But he also isnt a mindless berserker so he knew he had to escape as well. So he gave her a good slash with his sword and took the exit.


I like your version better.  He got what he could, then hit the victory condition.  You are correct, that was not fake rage.

----------


## Vinyadan

I think I understood why I find Idle laughing distressing:
Https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/11142015-2

https://youtu.be/iJn1r5qXscE

However, there are other cases in which a Goblins character showing enthusiasm looked nightmarish to me; one with MM in particular stood out to me.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Complains is smart enough to develop and follow new strategies even while raging, and this looks like another example of that. He charges at the angel intending to hurt them, comes up with a better idea along the way, and contents himself with a symbolic attack.

I'm looking forward to Big Ears' turn with the angel, but I'm also dismayed that, in the Goblinsverse, even the forces of good operate according to pointless and contrived rules.

----------


## Traab

> Complains is smart enough to develop and follow new strategies even while raging, and this looks like another example of that. He charges at the angel intending to hurt them, comes up with a better idea along the way, and contents himself with a symbolic attack.
> 
> I'm looking forward to Big Ears' turn with the angel, but I'm also dismayed that, in the Goblinsverse, even the forces of good operate according to pointless and contrived rules.


Well, you know how it is. LAWFUL Good and all that.

----------


## McNum

And we kick the year of 2021 off with a reformation of the Goblin faith.

What a nice and fuzzy feeling this one gives.

----------


## Traab

And here we go, big ears is going to bump the now higher clocks with the horn and appear HOLDING HER HORN TIP in front of the now cheesed off angel. This is going to be fun. Wonder if he will have a crisis of faith over this.

----------


## Clertar

> Or he realized that he wouldn't be able to take her on and used the 'attack' as a distraction to get at the lever...


Back when that comic aired, I figured that he used the horn tip as a way to make her "touch" the lever as he was pulling it down, under the assumption that only her was able to make it move.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

New comic is up

*Spoiler*
Show

Ears got a new look!

----------


## Radar

> New comic is up
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Ears got a new look!


*Spoiler*
Show

And a half-celestial template maybe?

----------


## Fyraltari

Well, the "stealth path" to the Hell mission is compromised it seems.

----------


## Keltest

How... how long as Ears been missing fingers? Did i just notice and forget about it?

----------


## BaronOfHell

> How... how long as Ears been missing fingers? Did i just notice and forget about it?


I hadn't noticed it either, and I re-read the comic this Christmas. From what I can tell it happened during the "lol pearl" incident, so for about 4 years I guess.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Well, the "stealth path" to the Hell mission is compromised it seems.


Wasn't it already compromised by the fact that BE's a paladin and the moment he stepped in Hell, he'd be swarmed?

----------


## Fyraltari

> Wasn't it already compromised by the fact that BE's a paladin and the moment he stepped in Hell, he'd be swarmed?


Ah, I forgot that they could smell paladin souls.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Ah, I forgot that they could smell paladin souls.


Well, it has been a little over 4 years.  I barely remembered it, myself.

----------


## Wildstag

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> And a half-celestial template maybe?


I'm not really certain either goblin really qualifies for a half-X template. The only effects we've seen thus far are a change to their bodies and souls. Neither Complains or Big Ears appear to have additional effects of the templates. Neither appears to have the wings that a half-celestial or half-fiend grants. 

Nor do they seem to have spell-like abilities, despite their hit dice. Or if they have them, they haven't used them.

----------


## Radar

> I'm not really certain either goblin really qualifies for a half-X template. The only effects we've seen thus far are a change to their bodies and souls. Neither Complains or Big Ears appear to have additional effects of the templates. Neither appears to have the wings that a half-celestial or half-fiend grants. 
> 
> Nor do they seem to have spell-like abilities, despite their hit dice. Or if they have them, they haven't used them.


True that. But at least they gained a subtype I guess? And it had to go with some change in abilities and/or stats.

That being said, trying to name those D&D details might not have been warranted on my side. In non-gaming terms they both have some angelic/demonic traits which may or may not alter their capabilities.

----------


## Vinyadan

I like the new look. I also like that something good happened unexpectedly. Somehow, this feels much more satisfying than the level gains from visiting the angel.

----------


## remetagross

Well if not the half-celestial/fiend templates, maybe the mere celestial/fiendish templates. These are less powerful, less impactful on character level and identity, but do provide the relevant subtype.

----------


## Traab

It may vary. Complains is slowly turning more and more demonic as the story moves on so ears might do the same. This is actually an interesting thing because radiant damage is going to be very helpful in hell. Get him something to smite with, this is going to sting some demons. So much for him showing up in front of the angel, horn chunk in hand. He still could get there, but im not sure how that meeting will go now. Also, I wonder what the horrible background trap thats slowly ramping up will be with the clocks moving.

----------


## BaronOfHell

> The only effects we've seen thus far are a change to their bodies and souls. Neither Complains or Big Ears appear to have additional effects of the templates.


Doesn't complains have some kind of auto heal / auto regenerate ability? That is what it looked to me right after the "lol pearl" incident.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Doesn't complains have some kind of auto heal / auto regenerate ability? That is what it looked to me right after the "lol pearl" incident.


It happened when he touched the axe.  It turned him more demonic, which gave him a slow regen, yes.

----------


## Wildstag

> Doesn't complains have some kind of auto heal / auto regenerate ability? That is what it looked to me right after the "lol pearl" incident.


I guess, but that still doesn't fit either the Fiendish Creature template or the Half-Fiend. Whatever it is, it's setting-unique. And probably doesn't have a level adjustment attached to it.

----------


## Anteros

Yet another character healed in such a way as to give them shiny skin glowing skin.  This is what, the 8th time?  9th?  It stopped being exciting 8 times ago.

----------


## Mobius Twist

On the one hand, the implication is that the Psychic Minmax tapped into divine/angelic healing to make his "invulnerable body part healer" machinery. Or, that such mechanisms in this world automagically give you body parts that fill in the empty space with your IME effect, except when angel-level healing is applied. We know that that Ears has a yellow IME, not a blue one, as of now.  Maybe this will alter his essence deeper given an angel-type mutation

----------


## Quild

Interesting turn of event!




> I hadn't noticed it either, and I re-read the comic this Christmas. From what I can tell it happened during the "lol pearl" incident, so for about 4 years I guess.


Never noticed it myself but it looks due to the LOL pearl indeed.

----------


## Anteros

> On the one hand, the implication is that the Psychic Minmax tapped into divine/angelic healing to make his "invulnerable body part healer" machinery. Or, that such mechanisms in this world automagically give you body parts that fill in the empty space with your IME effect, except when angel-level healing is applied. We know that that Ears has a yellow IME, not a blue one, as of now.  Maybe this will alter his essence deeper given an angel-type mutation


Dies alone has had 2 completely different kinds of shiny limbs, so I don't think either of those theories add up.  

Honestly, I think Elli just likes the concept of replacing old "bad" body parts with shiny new ones.  Make of that what you will.  Either way, I'm glad Ears got healed, but it's become a really overused concept in the comic.  We've had Dies multiple times, Duv, Kin, Minmax, Forgath, Biscuit, and now Ears.  Presumably that gargoyle on his back is going to get a new body some time soon too.  If we start counting non shiny body replacements like Goblinslayer the numbers go up even higher.  It's time to find a new gimmick.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

At this point's it's safe to say that colorful, complicated character design is part of Ellipsis' aesthetic, and that the original character designs were spare and utilitarian only so that she could later add on more details. And, honestly, I'm fine with that. I see it as a part of her art style, like the stippled eyes.

----------


## Anteros

> At this point's it's safe to say that colorful, complicated character design is part of Ellipsis' aesthetic, and that the original character designs were spare and utilitarian only so that she could later add on more details. And, honestly, I'm fine with that. I see it as a part of her art style, like the stippled eyes.


Fair enough.  I don't personally care what the characters look like.  I've been reading since they looked like this.  https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/06282005  The art is far from a deal breaker for me.

The problem I have is that the story is suffering from Ell's need to do this to every character.  When a character is injured, instead of wondering "wow, how will this effect the character, and how will they deal with the loss?"  You just wonder "wow, I wonder what color their replacement limb will be since I know they'll get one just like the last 8 characters who got injured."

----------


## Kish

> It may vary. Complains is slowly turning more and more demonic as the story moves on so ears might do the same. This is actually an interesting thing because radiant damage is going to be very helpful in hell.


This is 3.5ed, there's no such thing as radiant damage.

These would be the templates briefly discussed upthread.

----------


## Quild

> Dies alone has had 2 completely different kinds of shiny limbs, so I don't think either of those theories add up.


It's Dies horribly, not Dies alone. That would be horrible  :Small Big Grin: 

I'm joking.




> Honestly, I think Elli just likes the concept of replacing old "bad" body [parts with shiny new ones.  Make of that what you will.  Either way, I'm glad Ears got healed, but it's become a really overused concept in the comic.  We've had Dies multiple times, Duv, Kin, Minmax, Forgath, Biscuit, and now Ears.  Presumably that gargoyle on his back is going to get a new body some time soon too.  If we start counting non shiny body replacements like Goblinslayer the numbers go up even higher.  It's time to find a new gimmick.


It clearly started many years ago. Back then, Tarol once made a post or whatever about how experience should be reflected on his characters by physical changes.
But that's a really interesting theory and I like it.

----------


## Vinyadan

Now I kinda wonder whether a comic so focused on body transformation and giving so much room to i.m.e. ("the colour of your soul" that affects magic as you wield it) was an expression of what would later manifest itself with transitioning.

----------


## Murk

> It clearly started many years ago. Back then, Tarol once made a post or whatever about how experience should be reflected on his characters by physical changes.


I have always thought that was a worthwhile goal: that every battle or fight should leave some kind of physical consequence. It's realistic - no matter how good of a fighter you are, life-or-death brawls will probably end up with scars or injuries. It's also a great visual indicator of the optimistic youth turning into the grizzled veteran. 

But I guess it gets problematic if you do several different fights in each dungeon, _and_ traps, _and_ multiple dungeons. After a while, everyone is just so cut up and maimed that they wouldn't be able to function anymore. I guess the _most_ realistic course of action at that point would be to have them retire or die, but that's not how stories work - so they need to heal. The only way to heal characters but still stick to "every fight should visually change the characters" is by having them be healed with replacement body parts. 

Which makes it a bit awkward, I agree.

----------


## Wildstag

Website redesign, by the way. Looks like they joined Hiveworks.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Website redesign, by the way. Looks like they joined Hiveworks.


Does seem to be the case.

Especially since it's a linked comic on the HW homepage now.

And a lookup shows goblins and hiveworks are both at 23.226.68.74.

----------


## Typewriter

New site seems very, I don't know, naked(?) to me. Too much white and overly generic in some regards. Can't complain or anything - free product and all that and I'm guessing that this transition takes some of the cost off their backs?

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> New site seems very, I don't know, naked(?) to me. Too much white and overly generic in some regards. Can't complain or anything - free product and all that and I'm guessing that this transition takes some of the cost off their backs?


from the twitter post on the subject, i'm guessing it was at least partly in order to get the website functioning properly on mobile.

----------


## Anteros

Does it seem weird to anyone else that the easiest way to become a celestial in this setting is to chop up celestials and steal their parts?

----------


## Kornaki

I think that only works for big ears because he's a paladin, and if he tried that plan himself he wouldn't be anymore.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Does it seem weird to anyone else that the easiest way to become a celestial in this setting is to chop up celestials and steal their parts?


Weird? Sure. In this setting, though? Not really. It's actually unusual that it's just a hacked off piece, rather than the celestial's mangled soul creating an evil abomination by merging with yours.

About the new website design, I actually find it a bit too busy, in the sense that the background image is more or less in the same stile as the comic, and full of things.

By the way, is that the village? It would be the first look we get.

----------


## Traab

> Weird? Sure. In this setting, though? Not really. It's actually unusual that it's just a hacked off piece, rather than the celestial's mangled soul creating an evil abomination by merging with yours.
> 
> About the new website design, I actually find it a bit too busy, in the sense that the background image is more or less in the same stile as the comic, and full of things.
> 
> By the way, is that the village? It would be the first look we get.


Its early days yet. Give it time, big ears may transform into an eldritch abomination that  looks like an angel got drunk, boinked a squid, then experimented on the offspring. On a more serious note, it doesnt bother me much because we have the earlier event with complains where he basically got infected by a demonic essence and started turning demon on us, so being inflicted with celestial essence doing the same fits in with the established events well enough.

----------


## PontificatusRex

I like the idea that his is just a campaign world were major regenerative healing leaves some magical signature. Regular cure spells don't make changes, but more significant damage requires more drastic effects.

And as for "horrible things happen to characters all the time in the comic", well, real life combat does result in people being maimed and losing body parts in all sorts of horrible ways.

----------


## PontificatusRex

Hmm, looks like Rich Burlew is taking a bit of character design inspiration from Danielle - that was not on my bingo card...

----------


## Anteros

I hardly think that Goblins invented  or owns this type of design.

----------


## satorian

> Hmm, looks like Rich Burlew is taking a bit of character design inspiration from Danielle - that was not on my bingo card...


*Spoiler: This has been done before.*
Show

----------


## Morgaln

> *Spoiler: This has been done before.*
> Show


It has even been done before in comics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyborg_(DC_Comics)

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> Hmm, looks like Rich Burlew is taking a bit of character design inspiration from Danielle - that was not on my bingo card...


That got a chuckle from me.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Draconi Redfir

New page is up!

*Spoiler*
Show

 And we're back to the Angel! Poor girl, still has one more to go after this.

----------


## Fyraltari

I forget, why do they think they have to face the angel to leave again?

----------


## Lizard Lord

They don't think they have to face the angel. They think they should face the angel because everyone that has so far has leveled up.

----------


## Fyraltari

> They don't think they have to face the angel.


Yes they do, Thaco says it on panel 5.

----------


## Quild

> I forget, why do they think they have to face the angel to leave again?


Yeah, I don't get it either. What looked like a trap is now a part of the dungeon.
It does make sense however now to have clocks and to have them raising. Timed event! Maybe there's no door yet?

Also there's Thaco left, but probably Pawlush as well.

----------


## Traab

And the angel gets progressively more and more enraged. Thaco is gonna have a really bad time when its his turn. Im thinking she goes straight to the smiting.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Also there's Thaco left, but probably Pawlush as well.


pawlush is with Ears, he's probably being included in Ears' trial. Not sure if he'll get anything out of it though, he's just a face on a rock at the moment.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Its early days yet. Give it time, big ears may transform into an eldritch abomination that  looks like an angel got drunk, boinked a squid, then experimented on the offspring. On a more serious note, it doesnt bother me much because we have the earlier event with complains where he basically got infected by a demonic essence and started turning demon on us, so being inflicted with celestial essence doing the same fits in with the established events well enough.


Good news! You're part angel.

Bad news! It's one of the ones from Evangelion.

----------


## tomaO2

Well, I haven't been following as closely of late but updates are still coming out in a reasonable amount. Seems like Elli is okay-ish with her voice now, and won't need voice surgery. Latest update was later than usual, but she also had surgery, which is always a good reason to take a break.

There is a new layout, and it appears to have wiped out the entire Goblins forum? Everything has to be on discord now?


There was a post on the Goblins Animated project

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/g...n#/updates/all

Posted 20 days ago, previous update was 8 months ago. Once again, the animation was not considered good enough. When you keep going through animators and then firing them because they don't meet your standards, the issue may be you, not them, just saying. Anyway, it's apparently in post production now. This may be a lie, because the previous post of 8 months ago also said the animation was done. It's really hard to believe what I'm told on these news announcements when they blatantly lie like this. How many companies have they gone through now? The original artists, then they hired another for touch ups

I'm surprised they've been able to stretch out the funding for this. They must have paid more than they expected to, there are simply too many times when they needed extra work to be done for it to have come in within the initial budget. We are well over three years since the Go Fund Me, and it just squeaked by. Makes me feel they got way more money then they felt they initially needed, or are borrowing a lot to finish things. Heck, maybe the money Elli is making from the comic is going into this. Can you imagine how many more issues would have cropped up if they had actually gotten the funding for the full cartoon that was initially asked for?  Then a new group for touch ups, and then a third for touch ups of the touch ups. I think three total?

One interesting bit of news.




> *The Show*
> 
> In an incredible moment, we went back and forth with a very big showrunner (a showrunner for a TV show is kind of like a CEO for a company), and he agreed to help shepherd GA to the screen and become our showrunner! This is a major win for us and also why we have been so quiet. He basically met with Phil and I and gave a bunch of really solid notes that actually forced us to rewrite the entire pilot of the show, revamp the bible and change the pitch entirely. We went back and forth with Elli and she was really amazing in incorporating the vision of our showrunner and making sure that Goblins is still Goblins. It's a refocusing of the work that will allow us to really fit the material to the medium of television while really sticking to and honoring the comic. His notes were really incisive and made us look at things like The Boys, or Watchmen (TV) or Game of Thrones' early seasons as a way to guide us to the quality we're looking for.



There are a ton of webcomics that would work better for TV than this one. Girl Genius hasn't even had an animation, and there isn't even that much material for Goblins to work with. I honestly have a hard time believing that Goblins would be the one to break into television. It's pretty niche, full of pathos, and gore. Sounds like the plot will be extremely different from the comic, if it does get released though, so that kinda defeats the purpose.

----------


## Traab

Goblins not having as much in the way of detail as girl genius is actually a plus. It gives the animators tons of room to flesh out the plot points and what happens in between because unlike GG where it often seems like every minute is accounted for, there is tons of leeway in goblins to add in more stuff without countering the established lore. Like, taking minmax and forgath from the goblin warcamp back to brassmoon. There are all sorts of openings for episodes to flesh out what happened between point a and point b because we dont know exactly how long the trip was or what happened on it. Meanwhile in the castle arc of GG we have 30 years worth of comics covering the events of two days. Not much room to fit in extra stuff, and thats a lot of info to fit into the episodes to hit all the important points so less room to wiggle. 

The issue with adapting comics/manga to anime/cartoons is generally condensing events to fit the season structure. You have to hit the right number of events to end at the appropriate point for each season, and when the source material is super dense like GG, thats a lot of potential cutting and trimming being done so agatha, for example, gets to wake up on castle wulfenbach before the end of the first season. Or maybe escapes from castle wulfenbach for the season finale. Meanwhile goblins has way less that *has* to be covered, allowing writers to write out filler that lets them properly pace the series without rushing. Its honestly a common thing on youtube for anime adaptations of manga to have reviewers keeping track of everything cut out from the series to make it fit. That will be less of an issue with Goblins.

----------


## tomaO2

First off, Goblins is a very tightly woven story, even more so than Girl Genius. How much time has passed? A week or two since the camp was destroyed? Girl Genius has had a couple time skips, at least. 

Even if that wasn't the case though, that is still not true at all. Girl Genius could easily take place in that nebulous time that takes place after the events of the comic takes place, if the writers didn't want to feel trapped by the story. There are radio shows (I listened to a few of these and they were hilarious), novels, and even short stories taking place in the future, or in parallel universes long with Girl Genius fairy tails. Girl Genius has a surprising amount of episodic content in other medias, there is no reason that a GG tv show wouldn't be able to follow along in that mold. 

Anyway, that was just an example. The fact is that western webcomics have been completely unable to get so much as a single tv show created that was based around their IP. Not even some netflix special. Like, can you name a single webcomic that has ever managed to break into film? Girl Genius is the closest I know of. I've seen a few comic books in stores of some other series too, but that's as far as it's ever gotten. Books have been made into the screen, games have too, comic books are super big right now, but webcomics? Youtube creators? Freaking Newgrounds. Man, Newgrounds had some amazing short animations. It honestly pisses me off how little attention we get. 

Heck, it's taken until the last decade or so for comic superheroes to finally get major attention, being considered low brow entertainment for most of the time they've existed. A few cartoons, a few movies starring Batman or Superman, and the occasional tv series. They were there, but not really front and center. There is so much content out there that we just do not even touch. Goblins is fine and all, but I just would be unable to understand how it managed to succeed when everyone else failed, when it's not even all that famous, or even really all that family friendly.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> [FONT=Comic Sans MS]First off, Goblins is a very tightly woven story, even more so than Girl Genius. How much time has passed? A week or two since the camp was destroyed? Girl Genius has had a couple time skips, at least.


That's a different conception of detail (one in which _Freefall_ wins, hands down). Time passed is not the primary measure by which most people would measure how well the base premise of a story could be replicated.  However, without the primary story, a lot of the characters become generic protagonist and supporting cast. Goblins, although dense in events over time, is relatively sparse on necessary detail.  A new viewer could be sat down, told _"It follows the adventures of a band of, well, goblins, as they fight off evil adventurers. It's a role reversal of the typical adventure RPG Dungeons & Dragons, though familiarity with the game isn't required to understand what's happening. The main story follows five members of a cannon-fodder goblin tribe (Thaco, Chief, Big-Ears, Complains-of-Names, and Fumbles) who decide to stop being cannon fodder and become Player Characters.* The Dwarven Paladin Kore is the primary villain."_ and run with the storyline. 
Yes, that's right off the TVTROPES page.




> Even if that wasn't the case though, that is still not true at all. Girl Genius could easily take place in that nebulous time that takes place after the events of the comic takes place, if the writers didn't want to feel trapped by the story. There are radio shows (I listened to a few of these and they were hilarious), novels, and even short stories taking place in the future, or in parallel universes long with Girl Genius fairy tails. Girl Genius has a surprising amount of episodic content in other medias, there is no reason that a GG tv show wouldn't be able to follow along in that mold.


The main story of _Girl Genius_ is a complex interweaving of plots and schemes from a number of power players throughout the universe (most of which have to be introduced and explained for their actions to make sense). Yes, the radio shows and alt-continuities can happen, and if not considered canon work fine in isolation to the primary story. Without the main story, however, it isn't clear who most of these characters are, what their motivations are, or why they are together (or competing, in the case of antagonists). One can either fix that by re-establishing all that backstory over the course of several seasons, or just keep the whole thing generic and it is the wacky adventures of female Protagonist and her group of friends (in effect turning Girl Genius into roughly the same thing as Goblins). 




> Anyway, that was just an example. The fact is that western webcomics have been completely unable to get so much as a single tv show created that was based around their IP. Not even some netflix special. Like, can you name a single webcomic that has ever managed to break into film? Girl Genius is the closest I know of. I've seen a few comic books in stores of some other series too, but that's as far as it's ever gotten. Books have been made into the screen, games have too, comic books are super big right now, but webcomics? Youtube creators? Freaking Newgrounds. Man, Newgrounds had some amazing short animations. It honestly pisses me off how little attention we get.
> 
> Heck, it's taken until the last decade or so for comic superheroes to finally get major attention, being considered low brow entertainment for most of the time they've existed. A few cartoons, a few movies starring Batman or Superman, and the occasional tv series. They were there, but not really front and center. There is so much content out there that we just do not even touch. Goblins is fine and all, but I just would be unable to understand how it managed to succeed when everyone else failed, when it's not even all that famous, or even really all that family friendly.


It's frustrating, especially since things like almost no premise have gotten green lit, as have adaptations to let's-be-clear-very-good-but-at-the-time-not-wildly-well-known comics that aren't specifically different from webcomics, but did have the advantage of having seen print. It's not clear why such and such property is seen as a great place to mine for the next big thing to convert to movie/tv show and other things aren't.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

the TV show "The dating guy" _technically_ arose from the webcomic "Least I Could Do". 


"Technically" in that the creators of "Least I Could Do" reached out to a network to try and make an animated TV show for their webcomic, and instead the Network stole the idea, changed some characters around, and made a show with the same concept without the creators of "Least I Could Do".

not exactly a promising history, but i mean... might count?

----------


## tomaO2

Pah, at least when Five Nights at Freddies was stolen and made into Wally's Wonderland, people knew where the inspiration came from. I'm sure tons of good ideas have been stolen over the years. I don't think they count (interesting bit of trivia though). There is a funny comic called Casey and Andy. The guy that wrote that also wrote the story for that 2011's The Martian. I believe I recall a situation where an author was unable to pass a script off as a movie, so he made it into a webcomic as a way to promote it (comic is Marry Me, by Bobby Crosby). Nothing happened with it, of course. I know other webcomic authors that got into cartoons as well, but never, EVER, does a webcomic get brought in. It's just infuriating. No one can achieve mainstrem success through webcomics in the west. You can with video game, novels, or even fanfictions (looking at you Fifty Shades of Grey), but never, EVER, a webcomic/webcartoon. 

Heck, even newspaper comics don't get any attention anymore. Those were the webcomics before internet. When is the last time a new newspaper comic became successful?

I'm sick of all the reboots. Of these corporations pretending that there just isn't any other areas to mine for stories. I don't care what finally breaks through, I just want SOMETHING to shatter this glass ceiling (with the qualifier of it being popular, else that will probably doom any future attempts for a decade).  Given the current trends though, it looks like they will just mine manga, and other indie successes  that come from Japan instead. 




> That's a different conception of detail (one in which _Freefall_ wins, hands down). Time passed is not the primary measure by which most people would measure how well the base premise of a story could be replicated.  However, without the primary story, a lot of the characters become generic protagonist and supporting cast. Goblins, although dense in events over time, is relatively sparse on necessary detail.  A new viewer could be sat down, told _"It follows the adventures of a band of, well, goblins, as they fight off evil adventurers. It's a role reversal of the typical adventure RPG Dungeons & Dragons, though familiarity with the game isn't required to understand what's happening. The main story follows five members of a cannon-fodder goblin tribe (Thaco, Chief, Big-Ears, Complains-of-Names, and Fumbles) who decide to stop being cannon fodder and become Player Characters.* The Dwarven Paladin Kore is the primary villain."_ and run with the storyline



I find the post a little confusing, but you seem to be saying that Goblins will be following canon if made into an animation? From everything I'm seeing, Goblins is going to completely torch the story of the comics to do some alt universe where the GAP and the adventurers are buddies, and no one is going to die gruesome deaths at Kore's hands (I don't think I could stand to see Chief being killed again as an animation. I dunno why, given I've seen a ton of gore, but those images disturb me).  

If you are saying that Goblins is just simpler to get into. Again, if they go the route that the radio show did, then anyone can jump in without knowing anything, and those shows are funny. Feels like funny is dying on the screen these days. I saw a review for Coming 2 America, and the reviewer is talking about how they have to explain the jokes now, or else someone will take the fact that actions shown in the movie are also condoned. This is where we are at, I guess. I heard that comedies are less popular because they don't do as well in many foreign markets, so there is that disincentive as well. 

Anyway, if Elli can do it, then great. I would hope others could follow in her footsteps, but I just don't get how. I hope to hear all about how it was accomplished, because it would be a milestone for webcomics representation. 

I want this to happen. I want to finally get get our own version of One Punch Man. It's a great success story that we need to emulate. A small time creator, who can barely draw, wrote a story that became world famous. No reason we can't do the same thing. If that person is Elli, then that is who it is. I'm always interested in reading more about this project moving foreword.

----------


## Vinyadan

> [FONT=Comic Sans MS]
> . No one can achieve mainstrem success through webcomics in the west. You can with video game, novels, or even fanfictions (looking at you Fifty Shades of Grey), but never, EVER, a webcomic/webcartoon.


In the Far West, maybe  :Biggrin:  Europe has some webcomics that went mainstream, Zerocalcare probably being the most egregious example, complete with a live-action movie, plus a Netflix series already in the works.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> If you are saying that Goblins is just simpler to get into. Again, if they go the route that the radio show did, then anyone can jump in without knowing anything, and those shows are funny.


Those shows are funny to you who is already invested in the characters through the incredibly intricate main story. If you did not know Agatha and company from the main comic, they are just generic protagonists. If they are generic protagonists, getting caught up on who they are and why you care about them pretty much requires re-doing all the plot lines from the main comic. Goblins, otoh, can be roughly summed up with 'they are goblin adventurers in a world where that's not the norm, here are 2-3 things you need to know about each of them...' and you are off and running. That is my point.

----------


## tomaO2

I really don't think I need to read the comic to find the radio show funny, and the radio show does a good summery of everyone. https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/com...?date=20070829

 I'm not really sure why they count as generic protagonists, while the Goblins are not. 

I'll just have to agree to disagree with you on this. Doesn't really matter.




> In the Far West, maybe  Europe has some webcomics that went mainstream, Zerocalcare probably being the most egregious example, complete with a live-action movie, plus a Netflix series already in the works.


If it's internet based, then you will have a link, right? I can't find one with a quick search.

----------


## Anteros

Personally, the odds of Elli managing to actually finish a project are so low that I dont really see the point in this argument anyway.

----------


## Vinyadan

> If it's internet based, then you will have a link, right? I can't find one with a quick search.[/FONT]


Www.Zerocalcare.it

Some English translations are available on Amazon (Forget My Name, Tentacles at My Throat, and a few more).

----------


## tomaO2

When I put the website through google. I can translate the website itself, at least. Originally Italian. It's a bit hard to navigate. Is this right? The last comic was two years ago? I see a couple you tube videos but nothing that goes past 5 minutes. Not really a high comment ratio either.  About 12 books. Hmm. Well, good for this guy. Thanks for the link.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

new page is up.

*Spoiler*
Show


just 2 1/2 cute people being cute. that's it. that's the comic.

----------


## PontificatusRex

> new page is up.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> just 2 1/2 cute people being cute. that's it. that's the comic.


I can think of a lot worse bases for a comic. I liked it after the drama and conflict of the last angel visits.

----------


## Traab

Well, *Spoiler*
Show

At least she has calmed down, poor creature was on the verge of falling from sheer rage and becoming a balor or something. Yeah thats probably not how it works in D&D but still, she was getting ticked off to the point that her not just smiting the next goblin she sees on general principle was getting unlikely. Lets see how long it lasts.

----------


## Keltest

Yeah, i can handle some cute in Goblins every now and again. Its a nice change of pace from the constant horror grimfest that has been this dungeon in particular.

----------


## Fyraltari

I feel like talking-backpack, whatever their name is, shouldn't have been transported along.

----------


## Keltest

> I feel like talking-backpack, whatever their name is, shouldn't have been transported along.


They are, theoretically, an item that contains a soul rather than a totally separate living being. I can see it.

----------


## Vinyadan

I think any oddities with transportation can be explained by the angel being sloppy.

----------


## Quild

This one actually made me laugh.

----------


## tomaO2

The description of angels is that they like souls that are are evil souls that have reformed. I'm surprised to see this angel be so happy to see someone that, I believe, has always been a good person.

Also, feels a bit weird to have the angel basically say lawful stupid. Obviously, she meant it in a more positive light though. Honestly, I've never seen Big Ears as being THAT much more moral than the other goblins. Like, yea, he has a few more rules, like no attacking the backs, and paying people for the stuff they sold, but I never felt that he really stood out all that much from the others. Not to the extent that he would be gushed over like this.

----------


## Keltest

> The description of angels is that they like souls that are are evil souls that have reformed. I'm surprised to see this angel be so happy to see someone that, I believe, has always been a good person.


Why is it that surprising? Good souls are good souls.

----------


## tomaO2

That was the description we were given by Elli. Angels like eating the souls of reformed villains, and don't really care about people that have always been good, and it's not like the rest of the cast are evil, or anything, they are all fairly moral. Complains probably been the least of the bunch.

----------


## Keltest

> That was the description we were given by Elli. Angels like eating the souls of reformed villains, and don't really care about people that have always been good, and it's not like the rest of the cast are evil, or anything, they are all fairly moral. Complains probably been the least of the bunch.


I mean, so? I dont look at a rabbit and think exclusively about them in terms of how much i would like to eat them.

----------


## tomaO2

The souls they like to eat are the ones that go to heaven. Everyone wants to go to heaven because being in heaven is a mutually beneficial relationship. It's an afterlife of peace and bliss for the mortal, while angels are happier being around the souls that are more delicious. The souls they allow into heaven are considered the cream of the crop, and the quality they find the most appealing is souls that have reformed from being villains. Meaning, they don't mind kicking lawful good souls into the in-between place. They are not the souls angels fawn over.

Keep in mind that eating your soul does not kill you. It actually improves you. Souls that are the more delicious are also simply the souls angels prefer to be around. Delicious refers to a host of characteristics. It's not that this kind of rabbit is more delicious to eat, it's cuter, it's got a personality that you like being around. It makes a better pet. 

Angels find people that have always been lawful good to be a tad boring. Otherwise, they would be the first choice for going to heaven, which they are not.

Honestly, if I hadn't been told how angels view mortals, I would think this reaction was completely appropriate, but it just seems at odds with what I've been told, and I find it surprising that being extremely lawful good gives you some sort of affinity to angels. As far as I know devils don't care how evil you are. They just like mortals that are suffering.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> [FONT=Comic Sans MS]The souls they like to eat are the ones that go to heaven.


Um. Source? I thought the lore was that angels feed on happiness, while demons feed on anguish. Emotions, not actual souls. That's why we had the orc being resurrected endlessly down in that one dungeon.




> Angels find people that have always been lawful good to be a tad boring.


In the current comic, the angel fawns over someone who has always been lawful good, lingering over the details of his character sheets so as to better savor them.

----------


## Godskook

Not going to lie, this comic annoyed me. Not because it's "cute", but because it.....just doesn't feel right.  Feels like that "How do you do, fellow kids" meme.  Worse than that, really, cause it's like twice-over.  Dialogue feels overly....staged for normal modern real-world conversation, but instead of that, it's a conversation between a goblin and a goblin-Angel.  Why would goblin society, such that it is, have cultural norms on that subject that so readily parallel our own, such that the first part makes sense, about how Big Ears is gay, and "oops", she outed him.  Like....I get the historical context of why LGBT is viewed as a community in -our- modern world, but why their's?  It wasn't even like this in other cultures in history.  Some had **VERY** different ideas about sex and sexuality.

And worse......she calls him "stupidly lawful good".  C'mon, this is telling, not showing, at it's finest, and it's not even a reference to anything epic or awesome Big Ears has done, just....labels.  Could've easily said something like.....

"It wouldn't bond with a mortal unless that mortal did something....(reads sheet)....holy crap, you dueled a level X warrior to save your friends?  That's awesome."

But no, let's use something that wouldn't even -be- on a normal 3.5 character sheet.  (Maybe Minmax's sheet, but that's minmax's joke....)

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> Why would goblin society, such that it is, have cultural norms on that subject that so readily parallel our own


Why shouldn't it? There's a lot of fun to be had in designing a society that's wildly different from our own, but you could also just shrug and focus on other aspects of worldbuilding. And if you're going by the Monster Manual goblins, we've already established that the Goblinsverse ones are a tad different.




> C'mon, this is telling, not showing, at it's finest


Telling, not showing, at its finest.




> But no, let's use something that wouldn't even -be- on a normal 3.5 character sheet.


There's no reason to think she's holding a normal 3.5-Ed. character sheet. Look at the information she drew on for Complains. Also, she's holding two sheets.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Dragonus45

> The description of angels is that they like souls that are are evil souls that have reformed. I'm surprised to see this angel be so happy to see someone that, I believe, has always been a good person.
> 
> Also, feels a bit weird to have the angel basically say lawful stupid. Obviously, she meant it in a more positive light though. Honestly, I've never seen Big Ears as being THAT much more moral than the other goblins. Like, yea, he has a few more rules, like no attacking the backs, and paying people for the stuff they sold, but I never felt that he really stood out all that much from the others. Not to the extent that he would be gushed over like this.


I don't know, I think it's always been clear he was the most outright moral of the group. He just doesn't have the problem a lot of paladins get where they have some borderline evil party and the good/evil divide gets shown a lot. Instead the tension between him and the group has always been one of idealism/pragmatism. 





> Telling, not showing, at its finest.


You know, I still rather liked those info dumps as a way to handle a lengthy exposition in a limited update webcomic. Just get it done and get on with it instead of taking like three pages to either do a flashback or a bunch of expository dialogue. Not fit for everything but particularly appropriate in a D&D styled aesthetic.

----------


## Anteros

It's just pandering.  "Wow, look how good you are!  And you're gay!  Gay people can be good!  I'm an angel and also gay, further proving how gay people can be good!"  While I obviously agree with everything said, it's done in a really cringe-inducing manner and feels more like virtue signaling than an actual attempt at creating representation.




> I don't know, I think it's always been clear he was the most outright moral of the group.


Which is why it's cringey.  Ears was already a good character if your goal is representation and to show a gay character who is pure good.  He's easily the best person in the comic to anyone paying attention.  Going over the top like this is what makes it feel like virtue signaling.  

However, Elli's dialogue has always been clunky and bad like this, so...it's probably better to just chalk it up to good intentions with poor execution as usual.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Why would goblin society, such that it is, have cultural norms on that subject that so readily parallel our own,


Just do what i do. imagine that the Angel can see just a _bit_ of the fourth wall and is at least slightly aware of things in our world and that she's being observed. As such, some of what she says might be more directed at us then at the goblin she's reviewing.

----------


## Dragonus45

> It's just pandering.  "Wow, look how good you are!  And you're gay!  Gay people can be good!  I'm an angel and also gay, further proving how gay people can be good!"  While I obviously agree with everything said, it's done in a really cringe-inducing manner and feels more like virtue signaling than an actual attempt at creating representation.


Today, on bad take theatre!





> Which is why it's cringey.  Ears was already a good character if your goal is representation and to show a gay character who is pure good.  He's easily the best person in the comic to anyone paying attention.  Going over the top like this is what makes it feel like virtue signaling.


Or, and hear me out, it's a great way to contrast the way the angel has been responding to everyone else with a bit of exposition to explain the horn absorption thing, and I'm betting it will also add some humor when ears also fails the test and she has to pull the lever on him. Potentially also getting played for pathos in such a case. It might even just turn out to be a straight forward, heh, situation where Ears is the person who manages to understand themselves well enough to pass as an example of character building. Perhaps don't go off the deep end before we even see how things play out.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> It's just pandering.  "Wow, look how good you are!  And you're gay!  Gay people can be good!  I'm an angel and also gay, further proving how gay people can be good!"  While I obviously agree with everything said, it's done in a really cringe-inducing manner and feels more like virtue signaling...


You cringed, I squeed. And my squee is worth more than your cringe.  :Small Amused: 




> Which is why it's cringey.  Ears was already a good character if your goal is representation and to show a gay character who is pure good.  He's easily the best person in the comic to anyone paying attention.  Going over the top like this is what makes it feel like virtue signaling.


Going over the top like this, which is... introducing a second gay character, who speaks positively about being gay.




> Or, and hear me out, it's a great way to contrast the way the angel has been responding to everyone else with a bit of exposition to explain the horn absorption thing, and I'm betting it will also add some humor when ears also fails the test and she has to pull the lever on him.


My guess is that Ears will answer a question wrong, but then the gargoyle will point out that he already answered a question correctly ("Did you fuse with my horn?!"), right as he entered.

----------


## Willie the Duck

'Pandering,' 'cringe-inducing,' 'virtue signaling,' 'representation,' 'over the top.' Well, that certain is a lot of buzzwords.

Regardless, Ears has been subtly shown as gay for a while now, and I think it being him and not anyone else has less to do with him being pure good and more to do with him being the most boring of the main goblin cast and this just being something else Elli can do with him. Seriously, he's a paladin, and he worries about whether he's doing the right thing and... he has big ears! Compared to Vorpal or the father-son dynamics of Thac0/Complains, or chief's insecurity, he just didn't have a lot of development. The angel being gay, that seems almost like it exists just to set up this joke (which I think, plot-wise, exists to bring the gargoyle into the conversation). Angel or not, she certainly hasn't been coded as one of the good guys or anything where her being gay is clearly beneficial to gayness somehow. Regardless, that's two gay characters in two decades and a cast of dozens of speaking roles, I'd hardly call the strip a wild celebration of gayness like the Walkeyverse or something. I'll be honest, the entire clocks/angel subplot seems kinda hackneyed. 'Everyone has to take their turn visiting the stoner angel so she can cast them into the pit for garbage reasons, but she's so bad at it you'll all manage to escape' isn't particularly interesting. This particular page, though, isn't a low point in that overall meh plot.

----------


## tomaO2

> Um. Source? I thought the lore was that angels feed on happiness, while demons feed on anguish. Emotions, not actual souls. That's why we had the orc being resurrected endlessly down in that one dungeon.
> 
> 
> 
> In the current comic, the angel fawns over someone who has always been lawful good, lingering over the details of his character sheets so as to better savor them.





Right, angels feed on happiness, but they can't feed on someone's happiness unless they have a soul. Furthermore, there is a big difference between the ability of angels and demons to feed. Since everyone wants to be happy, it is very easy for angels to be full, which this angel already stated when talking to Vorpal. She is not feeding from Big Ears, if she was then he would be blissfully happy. 

Since angels can feed on whomever they like, they are very selective on those they feed on, and the primary people they feed on are reformed evil doers. Unfortunately, I cannot find a link. Maybe is was in the forums? For some reason the forums got deleted. Or maybe I read it from those e-book links I posted awhile back? There are some e-books that went off on various subjects, like Vorpal's fumble chart, and the backstory of one of the dungeons. Could also be a tweet that was made... Not really sure how to do a search on twitter. I don't see the advanced search option. 

Does anyone else know?


EDIT!


https://twitter.com/EllipsisGoblins/...63618719191040

Found a link to the the twitter explination.




> _As you might imagine, almost everyone would want to go to an angel's Heaven. This is why it so rarely happens. Angels have all the souls they'll ever need, so they don't take souls often. Think of it as trying to get into a packed nightclub. 7/
> Ellipsis
> @EllipsisGoblins
> ·
> Aug 9, 2020
> Just like how demons prefer innocent souls, angels prefer corrupt ones, or rather good souls who used to be evil. Pure, innocent joy is going be newer for someone who used to be a miserable, evil douche, so they produce the most intense, yummy joy. 8/_


As you can see, it's not about being the most pure soul around, it's about reforming your evil ways. This needs to be posted in the wikia.




I also found another reference, which is actually posted in the wiki as well, that explains how this works.





> _Are Demons Evil Yes and no. Not having a soul means that demons are incapable of feeling empathy or friendship toward other demons or those they torture in their realm of fire and brimstone. It's this lack of empathy that has them betraying each other and conveying no sense of honour or compassion. Yet their cruelty always has a purpose. Demons by their nature, cause suffering in others because it's how they survive. A human who rips the wings off of a fly, simply to watch it flail about, does so without a purpose. A demon would never do something like this, simply because... well, why bother? Whether or not you think they're evil, they're undoubtedly horrible and scary. 
> 
> Angels Angels also have no souls of their own and are a lot like demons. Though instead of feeding off of mortal suffering, they feed off of mortal joy. This is why they tend to help out mortals in need and produce "miracles". Angels don't really capture and collect souls, like demons do. This is merely because a captured soul is harder to keep happy. It's better to visit the prime material plane, create some kind of joy and move on. And just as a demon can't care one way or another about the mortals themselves, neither can an angel. They simply want to feed. Comic Notes Let's answer some questions I can imagine popping up from readers after reading this... 1. Complains of Names still has his soul. His soul was... erm... 'dented' a bit when he became part demon, but he's still got one. The full extent of his transformation will crop up in the comic at some point. 2. Yes, Big Ears saying "****", was him saying one of those words that sound like demonic but isn't. Swear words aren't actually evil, they just 'feel' kind of evil. So while a paladin can technically swear all they want, they tend to not want to do it much at all. 3. Yes, Not-Walter feeds off of suffering, too. I know. I try not to think about that, either. As always, thank you for everything._


The important part here is that angels don't actually care about the kind of person you are, just like demons. This page does NOT fit with established lore. Maybe someone can ask her about this?

----------


## Traab

It hasnt been subtle since the pillar that showed everyones personal lust and we got the fairly clear indication that goblins dont care about sexual orientation as much as they do about liking /cringe girls with HAIR on their heads! That said, it also hasnt been a factor, because why would it be? His sexual preferences havent had any bearing on the story because nothing to do with love has come up aside from minmax and kin. I can see both sides here as it DOES come across as kind of cringy to have an angel basically be your personal fangirl as they proclaim how awesome you are in every way possible, but the gay part is treated as a "Oh neat, me too" rather than a point of how awesome Ears is.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> *snip*


Have you ever thought that maybe this has nothing to do with her eating, and everything to do with her just being impressed at how stupidly lawful good he is?


The girl is admiring the Himbo. Let her admire the Himbo dangit.

----------


## tomaO2

As was stated in the quotes I took, the reason demons don't have empathy is because they don't have souls, which means they also do not have empathy. The entire difference in how they treat mortals is based around how they feed. Angels are not "good", any more than demons are "evil".

I even bolded this point.




> *And just as a demon can't care one way or another about the mortals themselves, neither can an angel.*


They don't care how good you are. They are _incapable_ of caring. Don't get mad at me because Elli wanted to toss out established canon to make her cute moment.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

being impressed doesn't have anything to do with empathy. I find it impressive that Genghis Kahn became the direct ancestor of 0.5% of the entire planet's male population. that doesn't mean i emphasize with the guy in any capacity.

i mean, it's ALMOST like the angel is a character with multiple facets and interests and not just a stomach that consumes emotion! Oh my gooooooodddd!!!!  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Thanks for the extra information, TomaO2.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Kish

I don't think Elli's tossing out canon. I think all the "aww, so cute" burbling is going to end at, "Now I come up with a question to ask you, and if you answer wrong I try to kill you," with no more hesitation than the previous two.

Hit the post button prematurely, sigh.

----------


## JeenLeen

I admit there's a way to see this as being outside canon, but I could see it as appreciating a neat flower.  Humanoids are rarely stupidly lawful good enough to absorb an angel horn, so she's admiring reading about it.  Sorta like a person into botany might enjoy seeing and reading about a rare flower, but they don't necessarily _care_ in an empathetic way about the flower.
In fact, that she tells him (nicely but firmly) to be quiet and let her read shows she doesn't care about his feelings.  She wants to enjoy him as an object, and doesn't want his questions interrupting it.

I just found the "hey, me, too" as a set-up for a very funny punchline.  The angel's last line had me literally laughing out loud, which is relatively rare.   This didn't seem to be overly or overtly pro-gay.  (Big Ears does seem a little nervous about others knowing about his preferences, so maybe this is leading to some (in my opinion unnecessary*) "hey, we don't care, buddy" between him and the goblins... but I don't see him sharing a trait with an angel as catering.  Just set-up for a joke.)

*the fact that none of this friends said anything when they saw the pillars let us know they don't care.  It seems extraneous to focus on Big Ears accepting they don't care.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

i feel like Ear's nervousness about it might be less "What will other people think" and more "I don't like talking about my sexual preferences". I'm not ashamed about any of my preferences, but that doesn't mean i want to talk to people about them, even if they share the same preferences. Sometimes you just want to keep certain information private you know? The world doesn't need to know what you get off too, so it can be uncomfortable when that information is thrown out there without your consent.

----------


## DataNinja

> (Big Ears does seem a little nervous about others knowing about his preferences, so maybe this is leading to some (in my opinion unnecessary*) "hey, we don't care, buddy" between him and the goblins... but I don't see him sharing a trait with an angel as catering.  Just set-up for a joke.)


I mean, we basically already got that with the pillars. Nobody cared about Ears, it was all about the hair.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Godskook

> Today, on bad take theatre!


But it's not a bad take.  Just insulting an argument is fairly lazy.  Also, before you get too defensive, nobody is complaining about the *opinions* involved here, just the writing.




> I mean, we basically already got that with the pillars. Nobody cared about Ears, it was all about the hair.


Welp, we now have a point of contrast, that not only shows how bad the new page is, but also establishes that it's a plot hole, culturally.  Neither the goblins nor minmax have any cultural hangups about homosexuality.

----------


## Kantaki

> Welp, we now have a point of contrast, that not only shows how bad the new page is, but also establishes that it's a plot hole, culturally.  Neither the goblins nor minmax have any cultural hangups about homosexuality.


Complains having a thing for girls with _hair_ is obviously worse.
Kinda want to call Minmax a hypocrite on that one, considering he's into a snake-girl, but considering all those half-whatever* he's probably the norm for a human.

*half-elf, half-orc, half-dragon, half-fiend/celestial, half-ogre, half-ling, centaur... :Small Tongue:

----------


## Godskook

> Complains having a thing for girls with _hair_ is obviously worse.


I mean, that's a fairly straightforward compare/contrast scene, and Big Ears' preferences are -contrasted- with Complain's in how the group reacts to them.  It's pretty clear messaging that there's a notable difference in how those two passions are treated, with Ears' being the normalized one of the two.

----------


## Vinyadan

For me, the thing about this page is that we already knew that Ears is gay, but this would have been a much better page for a reveal. This whole angel scene is about "who I am": Vorpal's chooses his own name but has to come to terms with the legacy of his old one, Complains becomes Chief, is challenged by the reveal of his potential, and rebels against his and his people's position in the universal scale. Yes, the pillars had the advantage of showing us the party's reaction. But this could be shown later. The only other thing from the lust pillars -- that Complains is into hairy women -- could be useful if he ever meets Fox, but it could have been mentioned in passing.

----------


## tomaO2

Speaking of Fox. I wonder how they are planning on working her into the Goblins Animated story. She's a pretty minor character, overall, and hasn't even met the GAP yet. Giving her a lead role in the animation suggests that there is pretty much no canon to work with. I'm pretty sure the only reason she got added is because Elli felt she needed more women, and she is the only other woman in the entire story that has a big enough role to be kinda workable with.




> I admit there's a way to see this as being outside canon, but I could see it as appreciating a neat flower.  Humanoids are rarely stupidly lawful good enough to absorb an angel horn, so she's admiring reading about it.  Sorta like a person into botany might enjoy seeing and reading about a rare flower, but they don't necessarily _care_ in an empathetic way about the flower.
> In fact, that she tells him (nicely but firmly) to be quiet and let her read shows she doesn't care about his feelings.  She wants to enjoy him as an object, and doesn't want his questions interrupting it.


Fair points, but that leads to my second issue. When I think about Big Ears... and I don't think he's THAT impressive. He's certainly got his points, but he hasn't really had to sacrifice much for his morality, he hasn't been overly selfless. Honestly, if we are talking about someone that has suffered for being good. That would be Vorpal. His act of wanting to bring back the doll to the elf girl was a completely selfless act to atone for injuring her, and he suffered greatly for doing so. Big Ears has also been talked into various actions, such as not saving Vorpal, and needing Complains to take the first leap before he followed. He did do a backstab when he needed to. I don't blame him for doing so, and I think it was the right move, however, it went against his code, showing he will break his code if the stakes are high enough. 

I think the biggest act of good was when he scared off the town people to avoid killing them during the rescue, but that was him figuring out how to sidestep the moral dilemma, not making a choice on what to follow, his morals or his heart. 

What has Ears sacrificed? What has Ears lost? What has being stupidly, absurdly, lawful good cost him? Not really too much. We also have to keep in mind that he became a paladin just a few days ago. I don't think he had to wrestle with big question of good or evil when he was just a normal goblin of the tribe. Plus there is that whole thing about it being him that broke the axe that will doom the world to hell. Honestly, I think the Angel should be commenting on this. Like, her bending the rules in order to help the people that are trying to save the planet seems like the sort of a thing an angel would do.

Despite all my objections though, I'm still kinda in favour the development. I'm not sure Ears should be getting this heal, and I don't think he deserves this level of praise, but I found the cutting off of his ears to be grotesque.  I rate this as being the second most repulsive set of injuries I've seen from this comic. Coming in after the Chief death scene. A big part of me doesn't really care how Ears got better, as long as he got his ears back (yet another part reminds me that I don't think he should have been forced to cut his ears off in the first place. It was just a stupid dilemma that was used for more suffering). 

I guess we'll see how she treats him during the trial.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> [FONT=Comic Sans MS]What has Ears sacrificed? What has Ears lost? What has being stupidly, absurdly, lawful good cost him?


His ears? Not many people can say they willingly mutilated themselves to save their friends.

His health? The dude tanked an explosion that was set to blow up an entire room. He was at like -9hp when that was over.

----------


## Anteros

I see my last comment angered a portion of the community.  That wasn't my intention and I apologize.  I'm glad you got to...."squee".




> Going over the top like this, which is... introducing a second gay character, who speaks positively about being gay.


It's more than speaking positively.  It's unnaturally gushing in a way that breaks the 4th wall for me.  The previous "Ears is gay and everyone is ok with that" comic was much more natural and well done to me, because it actually made sense for it to come up.  There were ways to write this comic to send the exact same message that weren't incredibly cringey.

----------


## Keltest

> I see my last comment angered a portion of the community.  That wasn't my intention and I apologize.  I'm glad you got to...."squee".
> 
> 
> 
> It's more than speaking positively.  It's unnaturally gushing in a way that breaks the 4th wall for me.  The previous "Ears is gay and everyone is ok with that" comic was much more natural and well done to me, because it actually made sense for it to come up.  There were ways to write this comic to send the exact same message that weren't incredibly cringey.


Eh, she continues to read exactly like a bored store clerk or barista who has had kind of a rough day and is now making casual conversation with a friendly stranger and is finding something they have in common. I cannot begin to tell you the number of times i have heard a normally apathetic voice at the store i work at go "ohmygosh! Meee too!" at some off hand remark a customer made.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Speaking of Fox...


*ears perk* ...Yes? Oh, never mind.




> Big Ears has also been talked into various actions, such as not saving Vorpal, and needing Complains to take the first leap before he followed. He did do a backstab when he needed to. I don't blame him for doing so, and I think it was the right move, however, it went against his code, showing he will break his code if the stakes are high enough.


Those examples show that Big Ears is (or was) easy to persuade. He may have a low Will save for a paladin. And it was a moment of character development when he followed Complains, telling Thaco something like, "Never again tell me not to follow my heart." Also, think back to when they adopted class levels. Two characters (Complains and Chief) chose classes to suit their personalities. One (Thaco) chose a class on practical considerations. Big Ears chose his class to best help others.




> We also have to keep in mind that he became a paladin just a few days ago.


True, but this goes both ways. We haven't seen much of the "lawful" side of his alignment, but maybe that was a big part of his previous life.




> I rate this as being the second most repulsive set of injuries I've seen from this comic. Coming in after the Chief death scene. A big part of me doesn't really care how Ears got better, as long as he got his ears back


Yeah, I was very displeased by that too. I thought, "Seriously Ellipse, did you design an entire dungeon encounter just to force a character into self-mutilation?" (The answer is yes.) But then Ears got a full regeneration with narrative consequences, to my delight. It's very rare to see an unalloyed good event in this comic.




> I'm glad you got to...."squee".


Thank you. I hope you get to experience that for yourself someday.  :Small Amused: 




> It's more than speaking positively.  It's unnaturally gushing in a way that breaks the 4th wall for me.  The previous "Ears is gay and everyone is ok with that" comic was much more natural and well done to me, because it actually made sense for it to come up.  There were ways to write this comic to send the exact same message that weren't incredibly cringey.


Maybe the angel just has a fulsome personality. Anyway, an important Internet lesson to learn is: what makes you cringe might not make others cringe.

----------


## Anteros

> Maybe the angel just has a fulsome personality. Anyway, an important Internet lesson to learn is: what makes you cringe might not make others cringe.


Which is fine. I'll continue to state my opinions and you may feel free to continue to disagree with them. Your disagreement doesn't mean I don't get to voice my own mind though. Also an important internet lesson to learn.

----------


## Morgaln

> I mean, that's a fairly straightforward compare/contrast scene, and Big Ears' preferences are -contrasted- with Complain's in how the group reacts to them.  It's pretty clear messaging that there's a notable difference in how those two passions are treated, with Ears' being the normalized one of the two.


This is actually why I hate that page. Not because being gay was normalized (that is great and as it should be), but because liking women with hair was portrayed as being _not_ normal. Thing is, hair _is_ normal for goblins. We've seen more goblins with hair than those without. Fox, the only female goblin protagonist has hair, and there is a love story involving her and another goblin who happens to be hairless. It just so happens that goblins in the GAP's warcamp don't have hair. So when Fumbles calls Complains weird for liking women with hair, it is the equivalent of a white human disapproving of another white human for liking women with epicanthic folds or dark skin; phenotypes that are perfectly normal for humans, just not their particular subgroup.
We have a word for this. It's racism. If you want to highlight how tolerant your webcomic is, treating a different kind of bigotry as a joke is not the way to go.

----------


## Dragonus45

> This is actually why I hate that page. Not because being gay was normalized (that is great and as it should be), but because liking women with hair was portrayed as being _not_ normal. Thing is, hair _is_ normal for goblins. We've seen more goblins with hair than those without. Fox, the only female goblin protagonist has hair, and there is a love story involving her and another goblin who happens to be hairless. It just so happens that goblins in the GAP's warcamp don't have hair. So when Fumbles calls Complains weird for liking women with hair, it is the equivalent of a white human disapproving of another white human for liking women with epicanthic folds or dark skin; phenotypes that are perfectly normal for humans, just not their particular subgroup.
> We have a word for this. It's racism. If you want to highlight how tolerant your webcomic is, treating a different kind of bigotry as a joke is not the way to go.


...that's a bit of a stretch there. I somehow doubt Eli was thinking about things to that level of 4d chess and was just going for a quick joke about how weird standards about things like hair can be.

----------


## Willie the Duck

If we're thinking of the same strip, I took the hair thing to be one of those 'early-installment weirdness' things, and at the time Goblins didn't have hair.

----------


## Dragonus45

> If we're thinking of the same strip, I took the hair thing to be one of those 'early-installment weirdness' things, and at the time Goblins didn't have hair.



Could also be a cultural thing for their tribe. Perhaps everyone there shaves and hair is seen as undesirable.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Could also be a cultural thing for their tribe. Perhaps everyone there shaves and hair is seen as undesirable.


It could be, yes. My take is that it was near the beginning of the strip, and a lot of the worldbuilding hadn't been finalized, and agree that it was a throwaway gag. Elli's supposedly inclusion-focused strip fails because we can twist-conjecture a comment to indicate that the Goblins are within-species racist is more than a bit of a stretch.

----------


## Godskook

> This is actually why I hate that page. Not because being gay was normalized (that is great and as it should be), but because liking women with hair was portrayed as being _not_ normal. Thing is, hair _is_ normal for goblins. We've seen more goblins with hair than those without. Fox, the only female goblin protagonist has hair, and there is a love story involving her and another goblin who happens to be hairless. It just so happens that goblins in the GAP's warcamp don't have hair. So when Fumbles calls Complains weird for liking women with hair, it is the equivalent of a white human disapproving of another white human for liking women with epicanthic folds or dark skin; phenotypes that are perfectly normal for humans, just not their particular subgroup.
> We have a word for this. It's racism. If you want to highlight how tolerant your webcomic is, treating a different kind of bigotry as a joke is not the way to go.


Treating bigotry as a joke, by **MOCKING** it, is a perfectly good idea, especially in exactly the way it was handled in that scene.  Nobody is going to read that scene and go "wow, the goblins are right, girls with hair are super weird".  Everyone is instead either going to have a reasonably intelligent response to it, or is going to laugh at how stupid the goblins are for having a stigma about women with hair.  It's the absolute -best- way to handle this sort of thing, because the only people who won't "get it" are people like you who're overly focused on making sure comic book characters are all as virtuous as we are, when they're very much not supposed to be.  In fact, the opposite is true.

A case-in-point that came up elsewhere today for me was Scott Pilgrim, where both he and Ramona are both deliberately and badly flawed individuals, and that's the point. The reader/viewer is supposed to be repulsed by their bad behaviors and cheer for their character development.  Flawed protagonists are -good- things, not bad, after all.

----------


## Vinyadan

> If we're thinking of the same strip, I took the hair thing to be one of those 'early-installment weirdness' things, and at the time Goblins didn't have hair.


I don't think it can be early etc, because it was already after Chief's death, by the lust pillars.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

how many Goblins with hair have we seen? Fox for sure, maybe Gren? To my knowledge Duv doesn't have any hair...

... think that's about it off the top of my head. all the other goblins i can recall don't have any kind of hair.

----------


## tomaO2

Back when the Goblins dungeon crawler fundraiser RPG was a thing, you could create goblins for the game that had hair, and a lot of people did. It's not a canon thing, but it shows that there was no issue with having hair.

Most of the named characters in this fancomic were characters made for the event.  http://www.acyn.net/RSE_main.html

----------


## Vinyadan

> how many Goblins with hair have we seen? Fox for sure, maybe Gren? To my knowledge Duv doesn't have any hair...
> 
> ... think that's about it off the top of my head. all the other goblins i can recall don't have any kind of hair.


Fox, Grem, Duv, and a lot of Viper warriors. Goblins - 06/19/2012 (goblinscomic.com)

----------


## Keltest

> Fox, Grem, Duv, and a lot of Viper warriors. Goblins - 06/19/2012 (goblinscomic.com)


It could just be that being attracted to hair is like having a foot fetish or something. Not intrinsically wrong or wildly inappropriate, just kinda strange and maybe a little creepy.

----------


## Morgaln

> Treating bigotry as a joke, by **MOCKING** it, is a perfectly good idea, especially in exactly the way it was handled in that scene.  Nobody is going to read that scene and go "wow, the goblins are right, girls with hair are super weird".  Everyone is instead either going to have a reasonably intelligent response to it, or is going to laugh at how stupid the goblins are for having a stigma about women with hair.  It's the absolute -best- way to handle this sort of thing, because the only people who won't "get it" are people like you who're overly focused on making sure comic book characters are all as virtuous as we are, when they're very much not supposed to be.  In fact, the opposite is true.
> 
> A case-in-point that came up elsewhere today for me was Scott Pilgrim, where both he and Ramona are both deliberately and badly flawed individuals, and that's the point. The reader/viewer is supposed to be repulsed by their bad behaviors and cheer for their character development.  Flawed protagonists are -good- things, not bad, after all.


"The goblins" don't have a stigma about hair. All of the viper clan has hair. A number of their slaves also have hair. Fox has hair. Dies Horribly is clearly approaching a romantic relationship with Fox and there is no indication that her hair is in any way weird or a turn-off for him. From which follows that hair is normal for goblins. It is weird to be attracted to goblins with hair for _Fumbles_ only. Which, again, makes him a bigot. The bigotry is not getting mocked either. It's the bigot that is doing the mocking, and no one calls him on it. So yes, I'm having a reasonably intelligent response. I'm disgusted by Fumble's behavior.

Yes, no one is going to go "wow, the goblins are right, girls with hair are super weird," as you put it. But here we have a guy that is attracted to girls with a different, but perfectly normal, phenotype. And we're told it's normal to mock him for it. Just go to that page, replace "hair" with "black skin" and see if you still think this is not racist.

I do like flaws in characters. My favorite character is Chief, because he actually had flaws that he struggled with and tried to overcome. Fumble's racism is not a flaw he is struggling with. He embraces it and the comic doesn't even treat it as a flaw. _In a comic that is supposed to be about and against racism._ 

Note that this could have been reason for some actual character growth. By word of god, Fumbles is asexual. As such, he can't even understand lust since he doesn't have it. So it would have been a perfect opportunity for a lesson about how you should tolerate others even if you don't understand why they feel like they do. A lesson that would have been perfectly in keeping with the underlying theme of the whole comic. It would also have made it more believable when Fumbles later lectures MinMax and Complains about tolerance towards each other. This way, it just comes off as a hypocrit mouthing off.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I don't think it can be early etc, because it was already after Chief's death, by the lust pillars.


Okay, then I am not thinking of the right timeframe. I thought it was early in the strip, like back when one of them accidentally imagined the camp seer in a bikini.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Yes, no one is going to go "wow, the goblins are right, girls with hair are super weird," as you put it. But here we have a guy that is attracted to girls with a different, but perfectly normal, phenotype. And we're told it's normal to mock him for it. Just go to that page, replace "hair" with "black skin" and see if you still think this is not racist.


The point is that by focusing on something that is both abnormal for the human audience and obviously petty it highlights how petty the prejudices that [i]are[i] normal for humans are.

We're not being told it's normal, the comic is clearly making the goblins look silly for doing it because the prejudice they have is so clearly absurd and expressed in such a clearly childish way.

----------


## Dragonus45

> "The goblins" don't have a stigma about hair. All of the viper clan has hair. A number of their slaves also have hair. Fox has hair. Dies Horribly is clearly approaching a romantic relationship with Fox and there is no indication that her hair is in any way weird or a turn-off for him. From which follows that hair is normal for goblins. It is weird to be attracted to goblins with hair for _Fumbles_ only.


Or everyone keeping their head shaved is something specific to their clan. Thinking to deeply about it probably wont get you very far.



> Which, again, makes him a bigot. The bigotry is not getting mocked either. It's the bigot that is doing the mocking, and no one calls him on it. So yes, I'm having a reasonably intelligent response. I'm disgusted by Fumble's behavior.


Playing 4d chess against an opponent who never even sat down on the other end of the table.





> Yes, no one is going to go "wow, the goblins are right, girls with hair are super weird," as you put it. But here we have a guy that is attracted to girls with a different, but perfectly normal, phenotype. And we're told it's normal to mock him for it. Just go to that page, replace "hair" with "black skin" and see if you still think this is not racist.


Hair is hair. It's one of those things that is so malleable and visually striking that cultures have had wildly different opinions on how to and not to wear it everywhere on earth for ever. It absolutely doesn't equate with what you want to pretend it will.





> I do like flaws in characters. My favorite character is Chief, because he actually had flaws that he struggled with and tried to overcome. Fumble's racism is not a flaw he is struggling with. He embraces it and the comic doesn't even treat it as a flaw. _In a comic that is supposed to be about and against racism._


Good thing Fumble isn't racist then.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Yes, no one is going to go "wow, the goblins are right, girls with hair are super weird," as you put it. But here we have a guy that is attracted to girls with a different, but perfectly normal, phenotype. And we're told it's normal to mock him for it. Just go to that page, replace "hair" with "black skin" and see if you still think this is not racist.


except we're not talking about "black skin". the conversation is clearly about hair. You can't look at a conversation about hair and say "oh it's actually about X" because it's not. you're just flat out wrong. it's a conversation about hair, full stop.


As mentioned above, maybe the hair thing is unique to their clan? or the Vipers at least don't follow it? At first i figured most goblins didn't have hair, but if the Vipers have hair on their warriors, maybe it's less common on females? Duv could be an exception, being a literal Avatar sent by a god, wings and all. If nothing else, maybe our Goblins' clan simply doesn't have a lot of hair in it and it's a cultural thing for them, or a cultural thing for most goblins that the Vipers don't follow since Duv is "above other traditions" or something like that.

----------


## Typewriter

> except we're not talking about "black skin". the conversation is clearly about hair. You can't look at a conversation about hair and say "oh it's actually about X" because it's not. you're just flat out wrong. it's a conversation about hair, full stop.


While I don't think the concerns over the hair thing really make sense I will say that I don't think this is a fair response to what he is saying. He's not saying that the hair thing is an analogy or equivalent to skin color - he's simply pointing out that having character judge others based off of cultural/racial/whatever differences is a similar idea to that of judging people based off of their skin color. We recognize that judgements based off of skin color are racist (and bad) but we don't automatically jump to that same conclusion when it's something silly or familiar to us. If a character in a fictitious setting has a specific opinion on hair and, in that setting, hair is a trait common to a culture that is different than their own then that characters opinion on hair could be argued as opinion on a specific culture which is where the waters get muddied a bit. Again, not saying I necessarily agree - just trying to explain the point I think was trying to be made.

----------


## Traab

The thing is, its not even about hating someone for having hair, its about not finding that attractive and finding it odd that others would. If you grew up in a culture where you are isolated from other groups and are raised with the mindset that a specific set of features is sexy, then you go elsewhere and see people who dont look that way, its natural to not find that attractive and think its strange when other people do.

----------


## Morgaln

> except we're not talking about "black skin". the conversation is clearly about hair. You can't look at a conversation about hair and say "oh it's actually about X" because it's not. you're just flat out wrong. it's a conversation about hair, full stop.
> 
> 
> As mentioned above, maybe the hair thing is unique to their clan? or the Vipers at least don't follow it? At first i figured most goblins didn't have hair, but if the Vipers have hair on their warriors, maybe it's less common on females? Duv could be an exception, being a literal Avatar sent by a god, wings and all. If nothing else, maybe our Goblins' clan simply doesn't have a lot of hair in it and it's a cultural thing for them, or a cultural thing for most goblins that the Vipers don't follow since Duv is "above other traditions" or something like that.


I'm willing to accept that people have different opinions. I am not willing to let you tell me that I am objectively wrong, because I am not (note that this is not equal to being objectively right, this might well be a subjective matter instead). You are also ignoring my point. Bigotry, especially racism, isn't purely about skin color. It is a cultural phenomenon that looks at differences between individuals and applies values and hierarchies to those individuals, depending on various factors they were born with.
In other words, people with certain phenotypes are considered "better" than those with other phenotypes (this is for racism, you can substitute other terms, e. g. sexuality, when talking about other forms of bigotry). This results in treating those of other phenotypes differently, usually negatively. Laughing at someone for liking a different phenotype is negative behavior toward that phenotype. It sends the message that this phenotype is different and should not be considered equal. It is a demonstration that this phenotype is less acceptable.

In the goblins of Goblins, the phenotype variance includes a hair/no hair distinction. And I repeat this again, this is completely normal. Hair is not an exotic feature in goblins. It's not a rare genetic occurence or unusual in any way. And yet, Fumbles treats goblins with hair as inferior. Complains is, in his eyes, weird for thinking someone with hair is attractive. If you don't want to admit the "black skin" comparison is apt (it absolutely is, though), consider this:
Many people have a type for their partners. If someone told you they like blondes, or people with green eyes, or bald men would you think this is weird? They are perfectly normal occurences in humans. Let's substitute the less loaded "brunette" for "hair". Assume you heard two people talking and person A told person B that they like brunettes. Person B then starts to laugh and mock person A , telling them that liking brunettes is weird; so what's the message here? Are brunettes objectively not attractive? Is it unacceptable to like the brunettes? Or is the ******* [Edit. Huh, apparently this gets filtered. I'll describe it as "opening in a certain lower body part" then] the one that refuses to accept brunettes as individuals with the same worth as everyone else?
Remember that we are talking about a page that specifically tried to tell us that differences in sexual preferences are not a big deal and barely worth noting (it did that badly, too, but that's a different matter). However, it did so by saying that the way you look absolutely matters and is a big deal. If you look the "wrong" way (and were talking about hereditary traits here, not things you have a choice over), you're not attractive and not a valid sexual partner. And at the risk of treading the line of the rules narrowly, I will point out that "black skin" was treated exactly that way in the past and that this mindset is still very much present today, even if it is less prevalent now.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

where are you getting "X phenotype is inherently better then Y phenotype" from?

I saw it as being more like a weird kink, like being into bondage, feet, furriers, or vore or something. Most people who do not share those kinks would look at someone who does have those kinks and think it's weird or uncomfortable, there's no "X supremacy" about it.

It could be that Complains is SPESIFICALLY only into girls with hair, passing over any bald women entirely, which could be seen as strange. Or again, it could be a culture thing. in the clan of the cryptic fall, Goblins just don't have hair, just like how every Viper goblin we've seen has had chalk-white skin. Vipers might find it weird for one of their own to have a preference for women who have blue skin, even if nothing else about them is at all different. that doesn't make the blue skin "wrong", it just makes the one Viper strange for being interested in the woman BECAUSE she has blue skin.


it's a fantasy world where you've got a huge variety in spaient species running around.  you can't always pull direct comparisons from reality.





> Let's substitute the less loaded "brunette" for "hair". Assume you heard two people talking and person A told person B that they like brunettes. Person B then starts to laugh and mock person A , telling them that liking brunettes is weird; so what's the message here? Are brunettes objectively not attractive? Is it unacceptable to like the brunettes? Or is the ******* [Edit. Huh, apparently this gets filtered. I'll describe it as "opening in a certain lower body part" then] the one that refuses to accept brunettes as individuals with the same worth as everyone else?


I would go with a "No" , none of this. What i would personally say is happening is that it's weird that the person is ONLY interested in brunettes and only BECAUSE they are brunettes. if that same brunette died their hair blonde, the person wouldn't be interested in them anymore, even if they were in a committed relationship up until that point. that's weird, it's kind of shallow. that has nothing to do with Brunettes being somehow inferior.

----------


## DaFlipp

> where are you getting "X phenotype is inherently better then Y phenotype" from?
> 
> I saw it as being more like a weird kink, like being into bondage, feet, furriers, or vore or something. Most people who do not share those kinks would look at someone who does have those kinks and think it's weird or uncomfortable, there's no "X supremacy" about it.


Yeah, this was the take I got from the comic too - not that goblins with hair are inferior, but that he was essentially being kinkshamed. 

And the selection of "has hair" seemed clear to me as not some great lore-building tidbit, but a joke intended to highlight how utterly arbitrary and pointless it is to judge others for their sexual preferences. It's meant to be absurd - reacting with disgust at someone who likes *people with hair*?! That's almost as absurd as... well, as reacting with disgust at someone who likes his own gender, for example.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Let's substitute the less loaded "brunette" for "hair". Assume you heard two people talking and person A told person B that they like brunettes. Person B then starts to laugh and mock person A , telling them that liking brunettes is weird; so what's the message here? Are brunettes objectively not attractive? Is it unacceptable to like the brunettes? Or is the ******* [Edit. Huh, apparently this gets filtered. I'll describe it as "opening in a certain lower body part" then] the one that refuses to accept brunettes as individuals with the same worth as everyone else?


That could be an interesting situation. However, it does illustrate just how far this discussion has moved away from what actually happened in the comic. No one in comic said that someone with a certain phenotype was objectively not attractive (or certainly not with the same worth as everyone else), in fact the subjectivity of it was part and parcel of the discussion (with it being not-weird that Minmax liked people with hair being actively part of the strip in question). 

Having gone back and looked at the comic in question, I'm less convinced that I like it. They are kinda griefing Complains about his personal attraction profile, which I guess amongst super close friends might be seen as playful banter/faux-bickering, but when you include ally-of-convenience (at least for Complains) Minmax, it seems a little like the high school gang picking on on of the pack for stupid reasons. Overall, though, it just leaves me confused. The comic makes sense in a world where goblins don't have hair, but we've seen goblins with hair. Sure we can come up with all sorts of explanations like only these goblins don't have hair or cultural variation, but that's just us grasping at straws. I'd really love to go back and ask Elli if they simply forgot that there actually were goblins with hair in their world or something.




> Remember that we are talking about a page that specifically tried to tell us that differences in sexual preferences are not a big deal and barely worth noting (it did that badly, too, but that's a different matter). However, it did so by saying that the way you look absolutely matters and is a big deal. If you look the "wrong" way (and were talking about hereditary traits here, not things you have a choice over), you're not attractive and not a valid sexual partner. And at the risk of treading the line of the rules narrowly, I will point out that "black skin" was treated exactly that way in the past and that this mindset is still very much present today, even if it is less prevalent now.


I think for me we're at an impasse. I will agree that the messaging of this individual strip, along with everything else about it, is wildly inconsistent, confusing, and whatever message Elli had hoped to put forth is hamstrung by the notion that it be weird for a goblin to be attracted to a non-goblin trait that we know to not actually be non-goblin at all. However, the leap to it being equivalent to "black skin" takes what seems to me like a level of uncharitable interpretation I can't get behind. To me, this is Elli being incompetent at making a point, not a racist or sexually exclusionary point.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

have we seen any Goblins of their particular tribe with hair? To my knowledge we haven't. Clan of the Cryptic Fall might just be completely bald, like how the Vipers are all chalk-white.

Maybe inter-clan dating isn't really common, so for a clan of all-bald people, being attracted to people with hair is odd, because they rarely if ever exist in the clan. People outside the clan aren't ever really considered.

----------


## BaronOfHell

It is only Fumbles who says it, in a strip where he acts child like, i.e. he isn't serious. It looks like he tries to annoy Complains more than anything else.
Complains reaction is difficult to read, he is annoyed, so perhaps there is something to it? Certainly not enough of a something for anyone else with knowledge on the matter to barge in.
My take is that since no other goblin were bothered by this, none of our heroes truly care about the matter.

----------


## Morgaln

I've used a lot of loaded terms so far, which certainly contributed to the (not unexpected) backlash I got. I think I'll move away from the term racism because racism often implies systemic racism (using black skin as an analogy certainly does), and there's no indication that's the case with hairy goblins. I'll rather say that Fumbles discriminates against goblins with hair. 
The thing is, if you're telling someone they shouldn't be attracted to a specific person, they you are making a statement about that person. You're basically proclaiming them objectively unattractive, since you say it's weird that anyone would be attracted to them. Not attractive -> inferior to the attractive people. When you tie that unattractiveness to a hereditary trait that person has no control over, you're right at the concept of born inferior.
There is a big difference between "I am not attracted to goblins with hair" and "no one should be attracted to goblins with hair." The first is a subjective preference. That's fine; you like what you like. The second makes an objective statement about goblins with hair and how they should be treated. Fumbles doesn't ask "why are you not attracted to goblins without hair"; he asks "how can you be attracted to hair," strongly implying that you shouldn't be, if you're a goblin. Funnily enough, considering the page in question, homosexuals have been fighting for decades to make people think about homosexuality in terms of the first statement ("I am not homosexual") instead of the second ("No one should be homosexual").
To me it does make a major difference that we're talking about a hereditary trait, which is why I keep going on about it. If we consider kinks like vore or bondage, those are active kinks. Both sides decide to indulge in them with consent. I might find those weird or not, and might even say so, but you do you (heh). However, when I say it's weird to like a specific hereditary trait (hair color, skin color, eye color, facial structure, whatever) I am discriminating against any person that was born that way. Saying things like "no one would want to do it with a blonde" is, at the very least, incredibly rude towards women with blond hair. When you actively discourage others from having relationships with blondes, even if "only" through shaming them, you are definitely entering discriminatory territory.

This would probably not bother me as much if the underlying theme of the comic wasn't about tolerance to begin with, and if the author wasn't so prone to preach about inclusion and acceptance in her twitter accounts. And yet, this kind of casual discrimination does get used in the comic not to point it out but in the same casual way that it prevails in our society. There's a second page I find even worse and absolutely loathe for similar reasons, but I think I've already annoyed enough people here with my long, ranty and controversial posts, so I'll shut up now.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Dragonus45

> I'm willing to accept that people have different opinions. I am not willing to let you tell me that I am objectively wrong, because I am not (note that this is not equal to being objectively right, this might well be a subjective matter instead).


No, no you actually are just objectively wrong. Cultural preferences for what kind of hair stylings or clothing are considered attractive or unattractive _cannot_ be reasonably compared to something like racism. Especially not in the way you are trying to force the connection in this context.

----------


## Morgaln

> No, no you actually are just objectively wrong. Cultural preferences for what kind of hair stylings or clothing are considered attractive or unattractive _cannot_ be reasonably compared to something like racism. Especially not in the way you are trying to force the connection in this context.


You don't get the point. Being born with hair or being born without hair is not a cultural preference but a biological difference in goblins. Being born some way or other is never cultural. Therefore your argument is invalid.

----------


## Dragonus45

> You don't get the point. Being born with hair or being born without hair is not a cultural preference but a biological difference in goblins. Being born some way or other is never cultural. Therefore your argument is invalid.


As opposed to your argument? Which is so convoluted and roundabout it would make an experienced Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth-Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker cry tears at the beauty of it. Because apparently the goblins from the warcamp are some hitherto unknown subspecies of goblin who don't grow hair as opposed to just shaving because that's what their tribe does or some similar reason. And if, just _if_ that turns out to be true it would still be a 9th dimensional bank shot off the moons or Orion to say natural cultural preferences resulting from that being the norm would somehow be racist enough to undercut or invalidate the comics fuzzy feel good moment of the group just accepting Big Ears without comment.

----------


## Morgaln

> As opposed to your argument? Which is so convoluted and roundabout it would make an experienced Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth-Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker cry tears at the beauty of it. Because apparently the goblins from the warcamp are some hitherto unknown subspecies of goblin who don't grow hair as opposed to just shaving because that's what their tribe does or some similar reason. And if, just _if_ that turns out to be true it would still be a 9th dimensional bank shot off the moons or Orion to say natural cultural preferences resulting from that being the norm would somehow be racist enough to undercut or invalidate the comics fuzzy feel good moment of the group just accepting Big Ears without comment.


The goblins from the warcamp were the first goblins we saw. None of them ever had hair. The assumption that they just don't grow hair is perfectly valid. They are not an hitherto unknown species. Goblins with hair were the hitherto unknown species (to the reader) until the viper clan showed up. I find the reasoning that they all grow hair but choose to shave it far less likely than assuming this is a biological difference in different clans, but if you want it to be your headcanon, go right ahead.

----------


## Wildstag

> The goblins from the warcamp were the first goblins we saw. None of them ever had hair. The assumption that they just don't grow hair is perfectly valid. They are not an hitherto unknown species. Goblins with hair were the hitherto unknown species (to the reader) until the viper clan showed up. I find the reasoning that they all grow hair but choose to shave it far less likely than assuming this is a biological difference in different clans, but if you want it to be your headcanon, go right ahead.


To add to the conversation, we've seen a mixture of goblins in other scenes, where some goblins have hair and other goblins do not? It's bizarre that the other guy would prefer that they're just shaving their hair instead of just not having it. Why would Goblinslayer have cared to respect cultural standards instead of just shaving them all or restricting the shaven goblins from shaving their hair while in his "care"? 

The more obvious response is yours: that some goblins are born with hair, and some are born unable to grow it.

Or are they all just some new variant of goblins, maybe named nilgob?

----------


## Godskook

> The bigotry is not getting mocked either.


Yes, yes it is, it's being mocked by the -reader-.  That's the point I already explained.  "Hair" was chosen because readers of the comic are almost universally going to mock the characters of the comic for having such a weird hang-up.  It's too ridiculous to find empathetic.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> It's too ridiculous to find empathetic.


and this is exactly why it should not be compared to real-world skin colour of all things.

----------


## Traab

> To add to the conversation, we've seen a mixture of goblins in other scenes, where some goblins have hair and other goblins do not? It's bizarre that the other guy would prefer that they're just shaving their hair instead of just not having it. Why would Goblinslayer have cared to respect cultural standards instead of just shaving them all or restricting the shaven goblins from shaving their hair while in his "care"? 
> 
> The more obvious response is yours: that some goblins are born with hair, and some are born unable to grow it.
> 
> Or are they all just some new variant of goblins, maybe named nilgob?


Im pretty sure most of them arent goblins at all. I see one clan viper dude and another half burned guy that might be a goblin, but there are dwarves kobolds ogres and lord knows what else in the melee.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Yes, yes it is, it's being mocked by the -reader-.  That's the point I already explained.  "Hair" was chosen because readers of the comic are almost universally going to mock the characters of the comic for having such a weird hang-up.  It's too ridiculous to find empathetic.


I figured hair was chosen to poke fun at hair specifically, since some people IRL have big angry opinions about things like where hair should and shouldn't be or how long it needs to be to find another person attractive and it's a much more direct parallel then the racism thing.

----------


## Vinyadan

As others observed, it seems that many goblins are simply bald. There were GS's prisoners, plus we have never seen hair or heard of grooming during the GAP's travels, although that might be due to the short timespan.

If it is genetic (or something you can't change) as it seems to me, then it is a form of discrimination. Body shaming, we would call it; or inciting body shaming, in this special case. If you want a real world comparison, you can think of someone going, "You like bald women? That's weird. Seriously, bald heads? Would you like to be alone with my flesh-coloured swimming cap?"

It's clearly meant to be a joke by the author to which the reader should participate, a joke that compares cultural mores among goblins and among ourselves, to portray the absurdity of the ones in our world. Unfortunately, while Goblins used to have elements of societal parody (remember this?), they fundamentally disappeared after the attack on the warcamp, so that the joke assumes that we somehow revert to reading the comic as if it still were as it was years before this page. 

And Vorpal did say these things in-comic, author joke or not, so yes, Vorpal should have to work through this issue (and who knows, maybe he will, if he meets Fox). This is important because, while Young-And-Beautiful from the linked strip was never meant to be a character you empathised with, Vorpal definitely is. And let's be honest, some grown-up character development wouldn't hurt him.

----------


## Morgaln

> Im pretty sure most of them arent goblins at all. I see one clan viper dude and another half burned guy that might be a goblin, but there are dwarves kobolds ogres and lord knows what else in the melee.


If you go through the subsequent pages, there's a smattering of goblins both with and without hair in that melee. It's a bit tiresome to look for all of them in often tiny images.
An easier example is probably the viper clan's chiefing ceremony, were we have a line-up of goblins, more or less alternating between hair and no hair. It's unlikely the vipers let their slaves keep razors to shave, so it's quite probable those without hair are naturally bald.

----------


## Keltest

> If you go through the subsequent pages, there's a smattering of goblins both with and without hair in that melee. It's a bit tiresome to look for all of them in often tiny images.
> An easier example is probably the viper clan's chiefing ceremony, were we have a line-up of goblins, more or less alternating between hair and no hair. It's unlikely the vipers let their slaves keep razors to shave, so it's quite probable those without hair are naturally bald.


I am suddenly reminded of how much i really disliked that arc. This has nothing to do with the hair thing, i just think the whole Viper clan storyline was kind of dumb.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> I am suddenly reminded of how much i really disliked that arc. This has nothing to do with the hair thing, i just think the whole Viper clan storyline was kind of dumb.


On the plus side, there are far fewer Viper goblins as of that arc's ending.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Wildstag

> Im pretty sure most of them arent goblins at all. I see one clan viper dude and another half burned guy that might be a goblin, but there are dwarves kobolds ogres and lord knows what else in the melee.


There's one that is very clearly meant to be Clan Viper (same patterning and the telltale hair), as you pointed out, but how is it in that page you only pointed out the half-flayed goblin and not the goblin positioned right between them? The clearly not Clan-Viper green hair-having goblin? 

And in the following pages we see more of the goblins. As they're  running out of the city we see more goblins, some without hair and some with. They're all over that arc, and it's pretty clear many of them are supposed to be goblins. They look a whole lot like the goblins we have seen, just some with and some without hair. 

And even if most of the prisoners weren't goblins, clearly a large percentage are (which honestly isn't too surprising given that it's Goblinslayer's prisons and he seems to get extra joy from the idea of being an eternal goblin boogeyman). And the fact of the matter is, the strip is consistent in showing that some clans of goblins seem to have hair, and others do not. Later comics only continue this trend.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> As they're  running out of the city we see more goblins, some without hair and some with.


Hair aside, can we take a moment to appreciate the minotaur two pages after this one? Dude's going out of his way to get as many little guys out of the city as possible. What a badass bro.

----------


## Wildstag

That same minotaur also was the first to the gates and held it up, taking an entire volley of bolts to the face. It definitely put in work to free its fellow prisoners.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

h'uh, was it? i thought that volley killed that particular minotaur, and there were just more then one.

Also bro shoutouts to the Ettin and Ogre who grabbed the gate from the falling minotaur and held it up for the rest of the monsters.

edit: H'uh, yeah. Minotaur at the gate has bolts in his face in the same pattern as the Minotaur rushing out of the city, with the latter having one extra. Whadea know.

----------


## BaronOfHell

> That same minotaur also was the first to the gates and held it up, taking an entire volley of bolts to the face.


Nice catch! Thanks for sharing.

----------


## Vinyadan

There's a new page (which I liked).
https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-5-2021

----------


## Hackman

> There's a new page (which I liked).
> https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-5-2021



*Spoiler*
Show

I'm not sure if appealing to blood ties is a great idea. Favouring your relatives doesn't really strike me as Good or Lawful.

----------


## Morgaln

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I'm not sure if appealing to blood ties is a great idea. Favouring your relatives doesn't really strike me as Good or Lawful.


And killing someone because they didn't answer an arbitrary question the way you'd like them to is?

----------


## Murk

> And killing someone because they didn't answer an arbitrary question the way you'd like them to is?


At least it's lawful!

----------


## Traab

Gargoyle dude is right, the entire thing is nothing but a trick meant to play off psychological issues each person has. Now, it is remotely possible the whole deal is meant not as a test but as a lesson, the fear of death driving home the point the angel is trying to make far better than just going, "yeah you are a hero, you are a chief, you are incredibly old and wrinkled" etc But as things stand now its dirty trick questions clearly designed to produce the "wrong" answer based on the character of each goblin. Not very angelic at all.

----------


## Vinyadan

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I'm not sure if appealing to blood ties is a great idea. Favouring your relatives doesn't really strike me as Good or Lawful.


Well, she's on drugs, so...

----------


## Willie the Duck

As a lesson it works (one hopes that the chute actually leads to a pile of kittens or somesuch). As a trap-dungeon feature it works. As an avenue for an incredibly affable opponent saying their really very sorry that they have to kill you (but then fails because they aren't really very competent) it works. As angelic behavior... yeah, it doesn't make sense.

----------


## Dragonus45

Remember, the angel is bound to do the job. Its not some normally angelic job to be doing.

----------


## Fyraltari

I'm not sure someone could really call an (unvoluntary) organ donor the parent of the person receiving it.

----------


## Dragonus45

Under normal circumstances yea, the logic is suspect. But I imagine that when used on a celestial being, especially ones in the style we know of here, I imagine it making a sort of insane troll logic kind of sense.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

Especially if Angels can't normally have kids in this setting. Reproduction might just not be a thing for them, so even the idea of having one through any means could be appealing to some.

----------


## Vinyadan

Or simply because she's stoned, and easily impressed. 

But there _might_ be some gay commentary here.

----------


## Lurkmoar

Wait, wouldn't the death trap take care of the Axe problem too, or would it just allow Hell to directly invade the Angelic realms?

----------


## Traab

> Wait, wouldn't the death trap take care of the Axe problem too, or would it just allow Hell to directly invade the Angelic realms?


It might actually work. Hard to tell since the description of where the trap leads is basically technobabble but it SOUNDS like its a direct route to instant destruction thats not connected to anything directly. I dont think he has the axe on him right now anyways.

----------


## Morgaln

> It might actually work. Hard to tell since the description of where the trap leads is basically technobabble but it SOUNDS like its a direct route to instant destruction thats not connected to anything directly. I dont think he has the axe on him right now anyways.


He does. It's wrapped in the blue cloth he also carries the gargoyle in.

----------


## tomaO2

How the heck is this not an April Fools Day comic? Very disappointed. 

Also, her willingness to kill him shows that I was wrong about how much she was initially valuing him. 

It still feels weird though. Big Ears has the axe on him, right? Like, I feel like that axe should have been involved in this trial. It's the linchpin in saving, or destroying the world, right?

----------


## sihnfahl

> Also, her willingness to kill him shows that I was wrong about how much she was initially valuing him.


Or she's bound by Her Job.  No matter her personal feelings, fulfill to the end.




> It still feels weird though. Big Ears has the axe on him, right? Like, I feel like that axe should have been involved in this trial. It's the linchpin in saving, or destroying the world, right?[/FONT]


I think the idea is, "Look, she's so LAWFUL that no matter what the individual in front of them is doing or trying to do, if they fail the test, pull the lever!"

Or Lawful Stupid.

----------


## Keltest

> Or she's bound by Her Job.  No matter her personal feelings, fulfill to the end.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the idea is, "Look, she's so LAWFUL that no matter what the individual in front of them is doing or trying to do, if they fail the test, pull the lever!"
> 
> Or Lawful Stupid.


Isnt she here as a punishment of some kind? Im not sure why people expect her personal feelings to come into play at this point.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Isnt she here as a punishment of some kind? Im not sure why people expect her personal feelings to come into play at this point.


Yes, she is here as punishment.  For a law she broke a long time ago.

----------


## Radar

There is an interesting detail in those trials: Fumbles was the only one so far who actually did think the question through. Both Ears and Complains thought the answer was obvious, when it really was not. Says a lot about how Fumbles is self-aware.

----------


## Traab

> There is an interesting detail in those trials: Fumbles was the only one so far who actually did think the question through. Both Ears and Complains thought the answer was obvious, when it really was not. Says a lot about how Fumbles is self-aware.


Well he DID get a big wisdom boost.

----------


## Kish

Big Ears _really_ didn't think about the situation at all. Gushing about how amazingly pure he is according to what's on the papers in front of her, then, "Are you a hero?" Gee, what do you _think_ those papers say, Big Ears?

----------


## Wildstag

Yeah, Big Ears *really* goes full tilt with his Lawful Stupid alignment. Kinda boring to read, tbh.

----------


## Vinyadan

Do we have any reason to assume Ears has high wisdom or intelligence? He looks very muscular compared to the other goblins, and he has occasionally been convincing, which could be CHA (like when he intimidated the kobold), but generally his thinking doesn't go beyond following the code, and it takes more courage than brains.
He did realise how the axe-break rooms worked, however, although it might have been because the axe itself was of special interest to him. And he realised he could absorb the explosion by jumping over the lolpearl, in a world where stories of soldiers jumping over grenades to save their comrades probably aren't as common as in ours.

----------


## Keltest

Occam says that Big Ears is simply genuinely humble and doesnt think about his actions in terms of heroics. As a paladin in good standing, he is almost definitionally a hero, which makes it a really, really strange question to ask unless she was deliberately trying to lowball it for him or something.

----------


## Sholos

Part of me wonders if the angel is actually hyper competent to the point of looking incompetent. Kind of how it takes a good actor to portray bad acting convincingly. She could be letting them go and teaching them lessons at the same time while technically trying to kill them. It's not her fault they're all good enough to get out, after all.

----------


## Traab

If ears hadnt gone half angel on us I would have started thinking this was all a trick and thats actually a demon in disguise trying to cripple them all before they can take the axe to hell.

----------


## Vinyadan

> If ears hadnt gone half angel on us I would have started thinking this was all a trick and thats actually a demon in disguise trying to cripple them all before they can take the axe to hell.


Goblins 3 - Return of Not-Walter?  :Biggrin:

----------


## Traab

> Goblins 3 - Return of Not-Walter?


Yeah basically. It would even make thematic sense. They have tried using the flea demons to kill them and failed, and devils and demons are pretty good at the whole trickery and deceit thing. So setting up a trap like this, designed to lower their guards and get an easy kill in, would be right up their alley. Heck, even as a delaying tactic it works. The longer the damaged axe remains in the material plane, the closer the big bad demon dude gets to crossing over.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Yeah basically. It would even make thematic sense. They have tried using the flea demons to kill them and failed, and devils and demons are pretty good at the whole trickery and deceit thing. So setting up a trap like this, designed to lower their guards and get an easy kill in, would be right up their alley. Heck, even as a delaying tactic it works. The longer the damaged axe remains in the material plane, the closer the big bad demon dude gets to crossing over.


I think thematic unity would also help with a recurrent problem: in Goblins, so much energy goes into defining the singular features of the dungeons, that the actual plot is put on hold, or struggles to stay in the reader's memory. For example, now we have the GAP running away (more or less) from Kore, but the dungeon makes it difficult to tell what the distance between them is, both temporally and spatially. Sooner or later, Kore will reappear, but that's completely adjudicated to author fiat. We also have Hell, but we don't know how bad the situation is, or how much time is left, and I believe we don't even have the first idea of what can be practically done to solve this problem. 
Instead, the focus is on the angel's test, which does let the GAP become stronger and more capable, but isn't actually connected with the plot, and wasn't even actively looked for by the GAP.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Instead, the focus is on the angel's test, which does let the GAP become stronger and more capable, but isn't actually connected with the plot, and wasn't even actively looked for by the GAP.


Which makes it look like a DM realizing the CR for the campaign is a bit high for the group, so is pulling things out of a hat to up their levels.

----------


## Traab

> Which makes it look like a DM realizing the CR for the campaign is a bit high for the group, so is pulling things out of a hat to up their levels.


"Suddenly your group is attacked by a group of dinosaurs known as Expasaurus Rex! Oh no! They tripped and fell, breaking apart into a stream of experience that flows into you. Congrats, you are all level 10. Suddenly a portal to hell opens up before you! The next stage of the story is about to begin! Choose your spells/feats/stats wisely!" (whew, almost messed up the whole campaign!)

----------


## sihnfahl

> "Suddenly your group is attacked by a group of dinosaurs known as Expasaurus Rex


You have defeated the luutbog!  In its dying throes, it bursts open, revealing ... more treasure than its insides could have possibly contained!

----------


## Dragonus45

I'm suddenly reminded of a fairly infamous incident in an old D&D group of mine where a newer DM uncertain of the best way to guide the party towards the plot he wanted decided to just have a literal guy stand in the desert as our airship passed by it with a sign saying "Adventure"

----------


## Anteros

> I'm suddenly reminded of a fairly infamous incident in an old D&D group of mine where a newer DM uncertain of the best way to guide the party towards the plot he wanted decided to just have a literal guy stand in the desert as our airship passed by it with a sign saying "Adventure"


It's a desert.  Couldn't he just have had wherever you land be the spot?

----------


## Cazero

> It's a desert.  Couldn't he just have had wherever you land be the spot?


Well they wouldn't land in a desert if there wasn't a guy standing there with an adventure sign.

----------


## Maryring

In fairness, that is pretty memorable. And would you as a bunch of murder hobos not drop on by to a weird random dude with a big sign in the middle of the desert?

----------


## Traab

> In fairness, that is pretty memorable. And would you as a bunch of murder hobos not drop on by to a weird random dude with a big sign in the middle of the desert?


You never know, either he has a cool adventure, or its someone who needs a good murdering!

----------


## Fyraltari

> You never know, either he has a cool adventure, or its someone who needs a good murdering!


Or he's somebody who needs a lift out of the desert who figured that holding a big "adventure" sign would get people's attention.

----------


## Taevyr

> I'm suddenly reminded of a fairly infamous incident in an old D&D group of mine where a newer DM uncertain of the best way to guide the party towards the plot he wanted decided to just have a literal guy stand in the desert as our airship passed by it with a sign saying "Adventure"


"It has to be a trap! Turn around, quickly"

----------


## Radar

> "It has to be a trap! Turn around, quickly"


And reveal your back to the danger? Bombard with everything you have!

----------


## Morgaln

> Or he's somebody who needs a lift out of the desert who figured that holding a big "adventure" sign would get people's attention.



Or maybe he had a religious epiphany and was looking for converts:


*Spoiler*
Show

*ADVENTURE*

Now that I have your attention, have you considered the fate of your immortal soul?

----------


## Dragonus45

> And reveal your back to the danger? Bombard with everything you have!


We have a winner! One of our grumpier players decided to open fire on the weirdo in the dessert with an adventure sign and things went downhill from there. In retrospect I do think it wasn't the worst idea a new DM could come up with though.

----------


## Traab

> Or he's somebody who needs a lift out of the desert who figured that holding a big "adventure" sign would get people's attention.


Thats covered by the murderin option.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

The eyeballs on the platform are new.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> The eyeballs on the platform are new.


H'uh, you're right. Might be due to the corruption from the axe. If you compare Ears' visit to the Angel with Complain's and Vorpal's, their visits didn't have the hellstrands between and around the pannels.

----------


## Vinyadan

Nice, I hadn't noticed it. I wonder if the stoned angel will.

----------


## Lapak

> Nice, I hadn't noticed it. I wonder if the stoned angel will.


I strongly suspect that's the actual reason she's dropped the papers, not the ridiculous "you are his mother" argument. She's just noticed the axe and/or the encroaching presence of the demon associated with it.

----------


## Kish

Ten gold says dropping the papers is the "you are his mother" argument.

----------


## Androgeus

> The eyeballs on the platform are new.


Did anyone mention the gorey border hasn't been present in previous Angel scenes, but is now?

----------


## Typewriter

I find it kind of funny (I find it kind of sad) that the two main views on the demonic presence and its relation to the 'mother' argument being made. Either the angel is falling for the argument, which is dumb, or Ellie wrote it that way knowing that people would fall for it because they have so little respect for her that it seems like something she would write. Here's to hoping for the latter.

----------


## Godskook

> I find it kind of funny (I find it kind of sad) that the two main views on the demonic presence and its relation to the 'mother' argument being made. Either the angel is falling for the argument, which is dumb, or Ellie wrote it that way knowing that people would fall for it because they have so little respect for her that it seems like something she would write. Here's to hoping for the latter.


Main View #1 is as you said.

Main View #2, however, is that obviously the Angel isn't falling for the dumb argument, but reacting instead to something off-panel, per Ellie's subtle art hints.

I don't see how #2 contains a "readers have so little respect for her" aspect.  It certainly wasn't part of how that view was discussed in this thread so far.

Maybe that's #3?

----------


## Iruka

> We have a winner! One of our grumpier players decided to open fire on the weirdo in the dessert with an adventure sign and things went downhill from there. In retrospect I do think it wasn't the worst idea a new DM could come up with though.


I would certainly get grumpy if I found a weirdo in my dessert.

----------


## Anteros

> Main View #2, however, is that obviously the Angel isn't falling for the dumb argument, but reacting instead to something off-panel, per Ellie's subtle art hints.
> 
> I don't see how #2 contains a "readers have so little respect for her" aspect.  It certainly wasn't part of how that view was discussed in this thread so far.


Nah. I totally agree with #2.  "This is extremely stupid, but it's the type of thing Ellie would write" is definitely something that crossed my mind during the discussion.

----------


## Willie the Duck

I don't know. Even if it turns out that the angel is buying the argument, I'm not going to be overly critical of Elli on it (I mean, this entire stopwatches-angel-deathpit-everyone-somehow-will-escape storyline is pretty meh, but this small sub-part isn't necessarily that much worse than the total). It is a dumb argument, to be sure. However, if the focus is that the angel is just that stoned/incompetent that it's vaguely compelling to her, well then it's just more of the 'hurr de hurr, this angel really sucks at her job' bit we've already gotten (which, to me, my response is 'yeah we got it, Elli, can we move on now?'). Now if Elli telegraphs that the angel buys it, and that it isn't a dumb argument, yeah then I'd be disappointed.

----------


## Traab

I do like the idea of the angel noticing the corruption of the axe and thats what she is reacting to. But more likely she actually is shocked by the argument. However, there are two main reactions I can think of that would warrant that expression. 

1) Omg its true! You mah baby! Come here snuggle wuggums!

2) She goes full billy madison  Then pulls the lever.

----------


## Wildstag

The main reason I hope this whole "he's your 'kid'" thread just drops asap is because it's being spun as if she needs to respect that bond...

But the horn was cut off of her by a demonic goblin in defiance of her will and the horn was used on Big Ears without her knowledge or consent. I highly doubt that any of the characters are going to acknowledge those points because they're either distracted by the hellscaping or because they're going to geek out on the "half-celestial" thing. 

It just doesn't seem like a well-thought-out argument, and it seems like the kind of thing a good-natured person like Big Ears should feel guilty about.

----------


## Kish

If we're going there, I would point out that the "demonic goblin" in question was defending himself.

----------


## Wildstag

My main point is that it's weird that the take they're going with is "He's your son, your blood... that you did not want nor did you consent to, and the person that cut that horn off of you was openly hostile to you (though she was hostile first) before handing that horn-piece to your 'child'"...

It's just an absurd story idea that's being passed off as having any value without a shred of self-awareness so far.

----------


## Radar

> My main point is that it's weird that the take they're going with is "He's your son, your blood... that you did not want nor did you consent to, and the person that cut that horn off of you was openly hostile to you (though she was hostile first) before handing that horn-piece to your 'child'"...
> 
> It's just an absurd story idea that's being passed off as having any value without a shred of self-awareness so far.


This could still be subverted by the angel buying the argument and still pulling the "death" lever as she is bound to do it as part of the punishment that keeps her at the lever duty.

----------


## Keltest

You know, it occurs to me. The death lever opens up to basically a sphere of annihilation, right? So what happens if they drop the axe in it? Will the demon get released into it and be annihilated?

----------


## Traab

> You know, it occurs to me. The death lever opens up to basically a sphere of annihilation, right? So what happens if they drop the axe in it? Will the demon get released into it and be annihilated?


Something tells me no. If it was that easy they wouldnt have bothered sealing it away instead. Its more likely it would infect this demiplane or wherever they are and move on from there. No longer sealed in the axe.

----------


## Anteros

> My main point is that it's weird that the take they're going with is "He's your son, your blood... that you did not want nor did you consent to, and the person that cut that horn off of you was openly hostile to you (though she was hostile first) before handing that horn-piece to your 'child'"...
> 
> It's just an absurd story idea that's being passed off as having any value without a shred of self-awareness so far.


Not really?  People raise and care for children borne from non consensual situations sometimes. It's an unfortunate reality, but no less real.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Let's have a moment of positivity.

Some time ago, I heard that Schlock Mercenary was ending, and started thinking about whether I would use that opportunity to pick it up again. My mind wandered to Goblins, because Schlock Mercenary seemed to do right everything Goblins did wrong. And I realized that I would rather watch these beloved characters suffer than go back to reading about the adventures of the cute galactic dictator wombat.

As you were.  :Small Wink:

----------


## Kornaki

The last 30% of schlock kind of fell off in quality. You're probably better not catching up...

----------


## Mastikator

> Not really?  People raise and care for children borne from non consensual situations sometimes. It's an unfortunate reality, but no less real.


The angel didn't raise Big Ears tho, they literally have no relationship. Even if we accept the premise that they're related her connection would be more like an egg donor. Which is to say she has no responsibility or right of him and vice versa. I'm being extremely generous by accepting the premise and saying it's like an egg donor.

I'd say it's somewhere between an organ donor and an egg donor. If you donate an organ to someone they are "your flesh and blood" but, like.... _ugh_. Give me a break. She's not his mom, he already has a mom somewhere in the goblin village if Kore didn't genocide them already.

----------


## Morgaln

> The angel didn't raise Big Ears tho, they literally have no relationship. Even if we accept the premise that they're related her connection would be more like an egg donor. Which is to say she has no responsibility or right of him and vice versa. I'm being extremely generous by accepting the premise and saying it's like an egg donor.
> 
> I'd say it's somewhere between an organ donor and an egg donor. If you donate an organ to someone they are "your flesh and blood" but, like.... _ugh_. Give me a break. She's not his mom, he already has a mom somewhere in the goblin village if Kore didn't genocide them already.


Adding to that, if someone mugs me in an alley and cuts out one of my kidneys, I certainly won't have any parental feelings for the person that ends up with that kidney. It's not like she donated that horn willingly.

----------


## Kantaki

I mean, I kinda hope that the argument is giving her pause, not because it works, but because in all her time on this job no one has ever tried something so stupid to get out of dying.

----------


## Taevyr

The closest real-life equivalent would be someone ambushing you in a side street, cutting off your hair and running away, then having a buddy of his show up the next day with your hair implanted in his formerly-bald scalp and claiming it gives you some sort of deep connection.

I mean, it's a hilarious concept, but not one to be taken seriously.

----------


## Traab

> The closest real-life equivalent would be someone ambushing you in a side street, cutting off your hair and running away, then having a buddy of his show up the next day with your hair implanted in his formerly-bald scalp and claiming it gives you some sort of deep connection.
> 
> I mean, it's a hilarious concept, but not one to be taken seriously.


Ehhh its not actually that close. I mean, wearing your hair doesnt change your entire freaking RACE to match the person you took it from. Its still a bit jankey of a claim to make, but its not that far of a stretch since you are now literally half celestial as if she had been your momma with a gobbo father. And it was all due to her "contribution" that it happened. If D&D had genetics I bet it would at LEAST say they are related if not "You ARE the mother!"

----------


## Anteros

> The angel didn't raise Big Ears tho, they literally have no relationship. Even if we accept the premise that they're related her connection would be more like an egg donor. Which is to say she has no responsibility or right of him and vice versa. I'm being extremely generous by accepting the premise and saying it's like an egg donor.
> 
> I'd say it's somewhere between an organ donor and an egg donor. If you donate an organ to someone they are "your flesh and blood" but, like.... _ugh_. Give me a break. She's not his mom, he already has a mom somewhere in the goblin village if Kore didn't genocide them already.


People don't have a relationship with their fetus either when it's first conceived, but they still can choose to raise it.  All relationships have to have a start point.

Anyway, I don't like this argument so I'm gonna drop it. I think the idea of her being his mom is just as stupid as the rest of you.  My point was just that people do sometimes form relationships with children they didn't consent to having.

----------


## Keltest

Speaking of which, the new page is up.


*Spoiler*
Show

This reads very much like she doesnt necessarily know about the validity of the argument, but likes the idea and likes Big Ears, so she's going with it anyway.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

New comic is up!

*Spoiler*
Show

 You guys don't get to be happy :P

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Speaking of which, the new page is up.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> This reads very much like she doesnt necessarily know about the validity of the argument, but likes the idea and likes Big Ears, so she's going with it anyway.



*Spoiler*
Show

Yeah. This feels like punting on any deeper underlying philosophizing about whether Big Ears is now her kid or not (or the implications thereof), and papers over it with 'doesn't matter, she's tired and doesn't want to have that debate, and kinda digs the idea anyways (plus this gives her 'an out' to spare someone she already likes).'

----------


## Radar

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Yeah. This feels like punting on any deeper underlying philosophizing about whether Big Ears is now her kid or not (or the implications thereof), and papers over it with 'doesn't matter, she's tired and doesn't want to have that debate, and kinda digs the idea anyways (plus this gives her 'an out' to spare someone she already likes).'


I agree with that. She was already very much against sending Ears (and Fumbles for that matter) to his death, so this blood relation argument was at most a drop that tipped the scales. An excuse to do what feels right instead of what was lawfully expected of her. Plus, she is high at the moment, so there is not much room for complicated and detailed arguments anyway.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

why do we need to keep going back to "She's high" for every decision she makes? :Small Confused: 

I'm sure there is a lot more to the character then that one throwaway line like two encounters ago.

----------


## Morgaln

> why do we need to keep going back to "She's high" for every decision she makes?
> 
> I'm sure there is a lot more to the character then that one throwaway line like two encounters ago.


So far she's acting like she's a ditz, high, or both. She's welcome to demonstrate that there's more to her character than that, but as long as she hasn't, putting down her behavior to just being high is actually the more charitable thing to do.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Speaking of which, the new page is up.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> This reads very much like she doesnt necessarily know about the validity of the argument, but likes the idea and likes Big Ears, so she's going with it anyway.


*Spoiler*
Show

Yea that was my read, she seemed already personally interested the idea and saw this as as good of an opportunity as any other. Perhaps even a better one considering how hard it might be in setting for celestias like her to have a kid. Add on she seemed personally impressed by Ears to begin with.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> So far she's acting like she's a ditz, high, or both. She's welcome to demonstrate that there's more to her character than that, but as long as she hasn't, putting down her behavior to just being high is actually the more charitable thing to do.


So Kunk from Emporor's new groove is "Just high"?

Shaggy from Scooby doo is "Just high"?

The woman from Legally Blonde is "Just high"?

Charlotte from Princess and the Frog is "Just high"?


if your interpretation of a character boils down too "They're on drugs and that's it", then you might want to re-think a few things.

----------


## Keltest

> So Kunk from Emporor's new groove is "Just high"?
> 
> Shaggy from Scooby doo is "Just high"?
> 
> The woman from Legally Blonde is "Just high"?
> 
> Charlotte from Princess and the Frog is "Just high"?
> 
> 
> if your interpretation of a character boils down too "They're on drugs and that's it", then you might want to re-think a few things.


I mean, she's outright admitted that she's super high right now, so... Yeah. That genuinely is a lot of what we know about her character.

----------


## Morgaln

> So Kunk from Emporor's new groove is "Just high"?
> 
> Shaggy from Scooby doo is "Just high"?
> 
> The woman from Legally Blonde is "Just high"?
> 
> Charlotte from Princess and the Frog is "Just high"?
> 
> 
> if your interpretation of a character boils down too "They're on drugs and that's it", then you might want to re-think a few things.


I know none of those characters so I can't comment on that. Did any of them ever admit to actually having taken drugs like the angel did? However, I'm not interpreting her just as "on drugs." I'm allowing for her being high as an excuse that she is acting completely contrary to what we are told about her.
All her actions towards the goblins, namely asking them misleading, subjective questions, then trying to kill them when they don't answer they way she wants them to is classic trickster behavior. It's the thing you'd expect from mythological figures like Coyote, Anansi or Loki, to name a few. In D&D terms, that is chaotic neutral, yet the comic tries to proclaim her lawful good. At the same time, she's incredibly cheerful about the whole situation, which sends the message that she cares nothing about the the goblins she's condemning to death. Putting down her behavior to drugs is charitable in that I'm allowing for her behavior to not represent who she really is; otherwise she's a devious, callous, arrogant piece of poo that has no compassion for the goblins she's supposedly be an angelic representation of.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> I mean, she's outright admitted that she's super high right now, so... Yeah. That genuinely is a lot of what we know about her character.


By "Super high" you mean... A little?

Big difference there. And again, if those two words are ALL you've picked up on her in her entire time here... you've missed a bunch.

----------


## Keltest

> By "Super high" you mean... A little?
> 
> Big difference there. And again, if those two words are ALL you've picked up on her in her entire time here... you've missed a bunch.


Maybe im just cynical, but if somebody says theyre "a little" high when directly confronted, i almost always read that as "im at about eye level with the ISS, but dont want to admit to it."

----------


## Draconi Redfir

sometimes you just gotta read things at face-value. looking for a deeper meaning behind everything is only going to get your head stuck in the dirt while the story passes by.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> By "Super high" you mean... A little?
> 
> Big difference there. And again, if those two words are ALL you've picked up on her in her entire time here... you've missed a bunch.


Yeah, I read that as 'I'm on something, but I've not taken a major dose recently'.  I think there might be some confusion between 'acting angelic' and 'acting high' as well, I never actually read her actions as seeming as if they came from a place of intoxication. I know people who act in such a way without touching anything as well, so it could just be her natural personality.

----------


## Dragonus45

> I know none of those characters so I can't comment on that. Did any of them ever admit to actually having taken drugs like the angel did? However, I'm not interpreting her just as "on drugs." I'm allowing for her being high as an excuse that she is acting completely contrary to what we are told about her.
> All her actions towards the goblins, namely asking them misleading, subjective questions, then trying to kill them when they don't answer they way she wants them to is classic trickster behavior. It's the thing you'd expect from mythological figures like Coyote, Anansi or Loki, to name a few. In D&D terms, that is chaotic neutral, yet the comic tries to proclaim her lawful good. At the same time, she's incredibly cheerful about the whole situation, which sends the message that she cares nothing about the the goblins she's condemning to death. Putting down her behavior to drugs is charitable in that I'm allowing for her behavior to not represent who she really is; otherwise she's a devious, callous, arrogant piece of poo that has no compassion for the goblins she's supposedly be an angelic representation of.


Considering she is bound to the task for some unknown reason the task itself being generally against her nature doesn't mean much, heck the idea that what she has to do is grating to her is itself a potential extra layer of punishment.

----------


## Radar

> By "Super high" you mean... A little?
> 
> Big difference there. And again, if those two words are ALL you've picked up on her in her entire time here... you've missed a bunch.


Her being high is not all there is to her, but it does make a hazy and not all that well conceived argument more compelling to her as her wits are dulled by whatever substance she is under influence of. Additionally, it nicely explains her incompetence and a serious level of detachment from the whole situation.

----------


## Morgaln

> Considering she is bound to the task for some unknown reason the task itself being generally against her nature doesn't mean much, heck the idea that what she has to do is grating to her is itself a potential extra layer of punishment.


Which in turn would be an explanation for _why_ she has taken drugs and is high; she needs it to be able to bear with doing something that is against her nature.
Of course the thing is: _she is choosing the questions she is asking the goblins._ It is completely in her own hands whether to ask something they could answer with a certain confidence or rather the kind of trick question that will almost certainly make them fail. She also called herself a mentor. A mentor is supposed to teach, not to kill, and a mentor is certainly not supposed to force the pupil into mistakes that gets them killed. So even if she is forced to do this task (the reason for which is not unknown; she broke a law. She told us that outright), the way she goes about it is completely on her own head, and she has not chosen a way that is either lawful or good.

----------


## Vinyadan

That's a good question, does she really choose the questions? If she doesn't, then this could be a terrible punishment for her, stranded in a demiplane to kill people she doesn't hate. But, if she does choose the questions, then this is all pretty screwed up on her side.

----------


## Radar

> Which in turn would be an explanation for _why_ she has taken drugs and is high; she needs it to be able to bear with doing something that is against her nature.
> Of course the thing is: _she is choosing the questions she is asking the goblins._ It is completely in her own hands whether to ask something they could answer with a certain confidence or rather the kind of trick question that will almost certainly make them fail. She also called herself a mentor. A mentor is supposed to teach, not to kill, and a mentor is certainly not supposed to force the pupil into mistakes that gets them killed. So even if she is forced to do this task (the reason for which is not unknown; she broke a law. She told us that outright), the way she goes about it is completely on her own head, and she has not chosen a way that is either lawful or good.


She might be actually obliged to pick such trick questions, so no _what is your favorite colour?_ cop outs. This is supposed to be her punishment after all, so she might not have all that much leeway here.

----------


## Keltest

> That's a good question, does she really choose the questions? If she doesn't, then this could be a terrible punishment for her, stranded in a demiplane to kill people she doesn't hate. But, if she does choose the questions, then this is all pretty screwed up on her side.


It looked like she did based on how she had to fish for a good one for Complains.

----------


## Morgaln

The page where she picks the question for Complains tells us that she has a choice what to ask, although admittedly whe don't know if she is allowed to make up her own question or if she gets a list to select from. She does claim she's choosing them from the character sheet, however, which shouldn't have any questions on it. So it is strongly implied that she does make up the question.

In the case of Vorpal, she outright goads him into picking the wrong answer. I understand she was encouraging his personal growth, but there would have been ways to do that which didn't directly lead to her having to kill him.

----------


## Radar

> The page where she picks the question for Complains tells us that she has a choice what to ask, although admittedly whe don't know if she is allowed to make up her own question or if she gets a list to select from. She does claim she's choosing them from the character sheet, however, which shouldn't have any questions on it. So it is strongly implied that she does make up the question.
> 
> In the case of Vorpal, she outright goads him into picking the wrong answer. I understand she was encouraging his personal growth, but there would have been ways to do that which didn't directly lead to her having to kill him.


If those questions were supposed to teach the goblins something, the teaching methods were... dodgy.

----------


## Typewriter

This whole room feels like DM BS to me. Failure being met with threats of character death but then handwaving the consequences because the DM was just trying to make you take something seriously.

----------


## Vinyadan

Having reread all of the angel strips, I can't really put the angel in this page and the bored "I won't help you because I'm not hungry" together organically (unless she really is doing this because she isn't sober). Maybe Thac0's turn will show some "glue" .

----------


## Traab

> This whole room feels like DM BS to me. Failure being met with threats of character death but then handwaving the consequences because the DM was just trying to make you take something seriously.


I mean, its certainly the sort of thing a dm might include. Its a solo event, giving each member of the team a chance for some time in the rp spotlight, a puzzle to solve, and a death trap its possible to escape if you werent able to solve the riddle but are clever enough to think of a way. And some sort of prize at the end. Names got a stat boost, ears got fully healed and a race change, (plus a one use celestial summoning item which is fairly huge I think) I cant remember if vorpal got anything out of his chance or not. So yeah, its the sort of thing a DM would pull for certain. I mean, you would have to be a fairly sucky dm to give your players trick questions with no save auto death when they fail it setups. They need to have a chance, and these guys get two. Answer the question correctly, and if not, figure out how you could survive the trap. Everybody has a way, from class skills, persuasion checks, or that random item you got awhile back that hasnt seen much use.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> The page where she picks the question for Complains tells us that she has a choice what to ask, although admittedly whe don't know if she is allowed to make up her own question or if she gets a list to select from. She does claim she's choosing them from the character sheet, however, which shouldn't have any questions on it. So it is strongly implied that she does make up the question.
> 
> In the case of Vorpal, she outright goads him into picking the wrong answer. I understand she was encouraging his personal growth, but there would have been ways to do that which didn't directly lead to her having to kill him.


to be fair, she IS an Angel, a divine being (mostly) beyond mortal comprehation. "The gods work in mysterious ways" and all that.

Maybe questions as mundane as "how many toes do you have?" just don't come to mind for her, they're too simple too... mortal. She needs to ask life-changing questions because those are the only questions that actually make SENSE to her. It'd be like asking a normal human to look at their arm or something, it's not a question, it's just a _thing_. Anything less then "life-affirming/changing" might just be beyond her understanding.

----------


## Dragonus45

Yea looking a being who is literally a platonic ideal of concepts such as Law and Good might just not be able to understand how to halfass the questions. I do wonder if getting a little high and incapacitating oneself a little might manage though. 

As for the "DM" in question, assuming I was running this I would be deliberately picking questions like this with the plan always being for escape to work as a tool to encourage RP when a character has to confront the ways they might be lying to themselves, or in Vorpal's case to get a moment where he gets to declare he is taking control of his own destiny and repudiating the name given to him by the fortune teller who only ever saw the failures in his future. This of course all assumes both a great party of RPers and that the situation is controlled from the start and not a DM flying by the seat of their pants.

----------


## Morgaln

> to be fair, she IS an Angel, a divine being (mostly) beyond mortal comprehation. "The gods work in mysterious ways" and all that.
> 
> Maybe questions as mundane as "how many toes do you have?" just don't come to mind for her, they're too simple too... mortal. She needs to ask life-changing questions because those are the only questions that actually make SENSE to her. It'd be like asking a normal human to look at their arm or something, it's not a question, it's just a _thing_. Anything less then "life-affirming/changing" might just be beyond her understanding.


Actually, angels in the Goblins universe aren't divine. They are soulless beings incapable of experiencing emotions, who only want to feed. This comes  straight from Elli.  I've ignored this canon so far because it's somewhat contradictory to what we've seen of this angel, but if you want to quote her being an angel as a reason, you need to understand what being an angel means. When she says she's proud of Vorpal? She isn't. When she tells him she's sorry for having to kill him? She's not. When she does get angry or outraged at Complains for cutting of her horn or at Ears for fusing with it? She isn't, really. When she squees of being a mother? She doesn't care at all. She's not even lawful good; to quote from the lore: "And just as a demon can't care one way or another about the mortals themselves, neither can an angel. " You cannot be good without compassion for others. If you're indifferent to them, you're neutral.
What this means is that she is a complete fake. Everything she does? It's pretense. She acts as if she had emotions, but sometimes she gets it wrong. That's why her behavior is so erratic.

----------


## Anteros

> Actually, angels in the Goblins universe aren't divine. They are soulless beings incapable of experiencing emotions, who only want to feed. This comes  straight from Elli.  I've ignored this canon so far because it's somewhat contradictory to what we've seen of this angel, but if you want to quote her being an angel as a reason, you need to understand what being an angel means. When she says she's proud of Vorpal? She isn't. When she tells him she's sorry for having to kill him? She's not. When she does get angry or outraged at Complains for cutting of her horn or at Ears for fusing with it? She isn't, really. When she squees of being a mother? She doesn't care at all. She's not even lawful good; to quote from the lore: "And just as a demon can't care one way or another about the mortals themselves, neither can an angel. " You cannot be good without compassion for others. If you're indifferent to them, you're neutral.
> What this means is that she is a complete fake. Everything she does? It's pretense. She acts as if she had emotions, but sometimes she gets it wrong. That's why her behavior is so erratic.


Honestly, I'm much more inclined to just chalk that up to bad/inconsistent writing than anything else.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

idk about you, but Data from Star Trek TNG was also incapable of feeling emotions

he was perfectly fine when it came to being impressed with someone, missing someone, showing appreciation, disappointment, and other things that for him are just calculations of "Person spent time with is no longer here" and "Goal did not go as planned"

don't see why a divine entity wouldn't be able to do something similar. Sure she might not be able to fall in love, but the concept of being a "mother" could be appealing to her in the same way the concept of being a hive-mind is appealing to me. it's not something I'll ever fully accomplish or understand, but it's something nice to think about.

----------


## Willie the Duck

At the very least, we've already seen behavior from outsiders ostensibly similar to emotions. To me, this demon is scared, bargaining (knowing full well that it will get them nowhere), and otherwise acting very much in a similar contradictory-to-supposed-rules manner as out angel foil.

----------


## Vinyadan

There also was a side story where Grinnorarcen was shown to be utterly scared of puppets, which I think is an emotion.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

I think Elli either has no idea how to write beings without emotions or forgot that they're not supposed to have emotions.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

does it really matter? 
no. no it does not
They're characters in a story, just let em have whatever they've gotta have to tell the story.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Also to be fair this is clearly a homebrew world where things might not follow the exact fluff in the books. For all we know all Outsiders here might university have the same range of emotions as mortals.

----------


## Vinyadan

> I think Elli either has no idea how to write beings without emotions or forgot that they're not supposed to have emotions.


Yep, I think that there is a divide between the DM's abstraction and the comic writer's story (and maybe even the DM's campaign, when put in practice). 

And then you can still have things like the "philosophical zombie" or "imitation people", thought-experimental entities that have all of the outward reactions of a human, but none of the feelings.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Also to be fair this is clearly a homebrew world where things might not follow the exact fluff in the books. For all we know all Outsiders here might university have the same range of emotions as mortals.


Outsiders have the same range of emotions as mortals in D&D by default. They also have souls by default.

"Demons and Angels are soulless beings with no emotions" is an invention by Elli.

----------


## Keltest

> Outsiders have the same range of emotions as mortals in D&D by default. They also have souls by default.
> 
> "Demons and Angels are soulless beings with no emotions" is an invention by Elli.


Well, kinda sorta on the souls. Outsiders do not have souls as separate from their bodies. Thats why they cant be resurrected with the same spells that work on mortals. You kill an outsider and you've destroyed its soul and returned its constituent material to its plane of origin.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Well, kinda sorta on the souls. Outsiders do not have souls as separate from their bodies. Thats why they cant be resurrected with the same spells that work on mortals. You kill an outsider and you've destroyed its soul and returned its constituent material to its plane of origin.


Yeah they are basically _made of_ their soul.

----------


## sihnfahl

> And then you can still have things like the "philosophical zombie" or "imitation people", thought-experimental entities that have all of the outward reactions of a human, but none of the feelings.


I suppose you mean like Jones?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Outsiders have the same range of emotions as mortals in D&D by default. They also have souls by default.
> 
> "Demons and Angels are soulless beings with no emotions" is an invention by Elli.


Ah, yeah. Sorry, the comic updates so slowly and I've been away from D&D for so long that I get confused.

----------


## Lvl 2 Expert

A while ago people speculated that the angel was basically Elli's new author avatar. To me this feels a bit like that's true, and like what it means to be or become a mother is her next personal obsession for a few months.

Or put way meaner: if there was a type of surgery that could help her get pregnant, we might have gotten a tweet asking for money rather than a goofy comics page.

----------


## Murk

> A while ago people speculated that the angel was basically Elli's new author avatar.


Was that speculation? I thought she pretty much confirmed it herself. 
It's obviously an author self-insert, which indeed explains a lot of the issues being discussed here. The answer to all of the "why would an angel do this?" questions is "because it is what an author/this author would do". 




> To me this feels a bit like that's true, and like what it means to be or become a mother is her next personal obsession for a few months.


The author had been trying (and failing) to conceive in the past, with doctor visits and fertility clinics included. It's why I immediately believed "you're my mom!" was a valid argument to the self-insert angel.


The problem with self-insert characters is of course that they're hard to discuss without going full psychoanalysis on the author

----------


## Morgaln

> A while ago people speculated that the angel was basically Elli's new author avatar. To me this feels a bit like that's true, and like what it means to be or become a mother is her next personal obsession for a few months.
> 
> Or put way meaner: if there was a type of surgery that could help her get pregnant, we might have gotten a tweet asking for money rather than a goofy comics page.


I fully agree, but I admit I wouldn't have dared to say it so directly on this forum. 




> Was that speculation? I thought she pretty much confirmed it herself. 
> It's obviously an author self-insert, which indeed explains a lot of the issues being discussed here. The answer to all of the "why would an angel do this?" questions is "because it is what an author/this author would do".


She basically confirmed it on Twitter (November 17, 2020). The angel's name is Gellin, which is both a contraction of anGEL + gobLIN, as well as contains her name:G ... Elli ... N. She pointed this out herself, so it's not just a coincidence.




> The author had been trying (and failing) to conceive in the past, with doctor visits and fertility clinics included. It's why I immediately believed "you're my mom!" was a valid argument to the self-insert angel.


Do you have any proof for that? As a transwoman, she's unable to conceive, and while she's not the smartest person, I'm quite certain she knows she lacks the physical requirements for pregnancy. Of course she should know what it is like to be a parent. She has two sons, she just was... the other part of conception. Of course that's not the same as being pregnant herself, but the closest she'll ever get.

----------


## Murk

> Do you have any proof for that? As a transwoman, she's unable to conceive, and while she's not the smartest person, I'm quite certain she knows she lacks the physical requirements for pregnancy. Of course she should know what it is like to be a parent. She has two sons, she just was... the other part of conception. Of course that's not the same as being pregnant herself, but the closest she'll ever get.


Oh, I didn't mean post-transition. I know a couple of years back (pre-coming out) they went through a lot of trouble trying to conceive. Must be somewhere in an old blog post or twitter story somewhere. 
As such, a self-insert character having a powerful reaction to the concept of motherhood makes sense to me. 

Honestly, it's the main reason I dislike author self-inserts.
I think discussing this comic tends to be most enjoyable when it steers clear of discussing the author, but a character like the angel makes that very difficult.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

At least it's not majorly explicit. I've known other webcomics *coughHomestuckcough* where the author inserted themselves as themselves and actually played a part in the story.


Here you can at least squint your eyes or look away and just see a character that exists inside the goblin world.

----------


## Murk

> At least it's not majorly explicit. I've known other webcomics *coughHomestuckcough* where the author inserted themselves as themselves and actually played a part in the story.
> 
> 
> Here you can at least squint your eyes or look away and just see a character that exists inside the goblin world.


True enough, and there have been characters based on the author's real-life before, so it's nothing surprising.

----------


## BaronOfHell

> True enough, and there have been characters based on the author's real-life before, so it's nothing surprising.


I never realized this. Is there a list or something similar where one can see which characters these were?

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> I never realized this. Is there a list or something similar where one can see which characters these were?


the two yellow goblins in the Viper slave camp were based on / slightly designed by Elli's sons. Best i can recall, this is the last page they showed up in, having survived the hobgoblin attack and the falling of their tent. They weren't at the chiefing ceremony, so best i can tell, they may have been released off-screen, with another member of their clan already participating in the ceremony. That, or the characters were just dropped from the story, as a long time had passed between then and their last appearance.

----------


## Lvl 2 Expert

> I never realized this. Is there a list or something similar where one can see which characters these were?


Minmax was based on the author's math teacher.

^This is a lie that I just made up, but it wouldn't be a bad rumor to start.

----------


## Lurkmoar

> Minmax was based on the author's math teacher.
> 
> ^This is a lie that I just made up, but it wouldn't be a bad rumor to start.


Isn't there enough lies on the internet already? :Small Eek:

----------


## Radar

> At least it's not majorly explicit. I've known other webcomics *coughHomestuckcough* where the author inserted themselves as themselves and actually played a part in the story.
> 
> 
> Here you can at least squint your eyes or look away and just see a character that exists inside the goblin world.


On the other hand his in-story self was fairly detached from his actual self and his personal life did not seem to spill into the comics or I simply never paid any attention to Andrew Hussie himself aside from his stories, so please correct me if I am wrong. Besides, the whole story was so bizarre and actively trolling the fanbase that the addition of an author-insrert character who is actually written as the author of the story was par for the course.

There are even more extreme examples of that as for example in 1/0 by Tailsteak most of the dynamics is between the author and the characters in the comics as the medium itself is examined and exploited on many different occasions.

That being said, I do not follow Ellies blog messages and social accounts, so I did not pick up that the angel is an author-insert from the story itself.

----------


## Ibrinar

> idk about you, but Data from Star Trek TNG was also incapable of feeling emotions
> 
> he was perfectly fine when it came to being impressed with someone, missing someone, showing appreciation, disappointment, and other things that for him are just calculations of "Person spent time with is no longer here" and "Goal did not go as planned"
> 
> don't see why a divine entity wouldn't be able to do something similar. Sure she might not be able to fall in love, but the concept of being a "mother" could be appealing to her in the same way the concept of being a hive-mind is appealing to me. it's not something I'll ever fully accomplish or understand, but it's something nice to think about.


Most instances of emotionless characters in media that aren't supposed to be pretending to have emotions (implicitly or explicitly) act like they have emotions to a degree and  just don't emote and avoid the big ones like love or hate. Probably because it is hard to make them actual characters if they actually act entirely emotionless. I don't know how Data was explained but if he wasn't pretending it probably applies to him too.

I would say something being appealing falls under emotions btw. Though I suppose you can extend appeal to include whatever else motivates her actions. Hmm does something appeal to a computer program because it increases the chance of reaching its goals? I suppose it would make some sense to say yesj

----------


## Traab

> Most instances of emotionless characters in media that aren't supposed to be pretending to have emotions (implicitly or explicitly) act like they have emotions to a degree and  just don't emote and avoid the big ones like love or hate. Probably because it is hard to make them actual characters if they actually act entirely emotionless. I don't know how Data was explained but if he wasn't pretending it probably applies to him too.
> 
> I would say something being appealing falls under emotions btw. Though I suppose you can extend appeal to include whatever else motivates her actions. Hmm does something appeal to a computer program because it increases the chance of reaching its goals? I suppose it would make some sense to say yesj


Data wanted to have feelings, and at several points he did. For the most part though the biggest emotion he tended to display was puzzlement. Instances where he displays other emotions outside of specfic episodes about him suddenly having them are fairly rare. Iirc at several points we learned he was trying various methods to emulate humanity by doing things such as programming in "small talk" routines and such. Also, if you ever wanted to watch the TNG crew crack on camera, watch the clip where Data shows off his beard. Troi, Laforge, and Riker are all having a very tough time in that scene. I swear its like watching a classic tim conway sketch where his only goal is to make the rest of the cast break character.

----------


## Maryring

The big problem about "emotionless" is that emotions are basically heuristics. Mental shorthands for "how do I deal with this thing/situation I am in". If you're happy, you embrace it. If you're disgusted you reject it. If you're afraid you try to avoid it. It's there to let you make a snap decision about something. "I heard a noise, I don't know that noise. I'm afraid. I'm getting out of here." 

Without emotions, you're basically doing all the mental legwork of everything that's going on around you. Which is why "emotionless" so often just ends up being someone who's either repressed, or somewhere on the spectrum, or just devoid of ambition and drive. Those are things you can actually experience in a character.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Data wanted to have feelings, and at several points he did. For the most part though the biggest emotion he tended to display was puzzlement. Instances where he displays other emotions outside of specfic episodes about him suddenly having them are fairly rare.


This clip i feel does a good job of explaining what I'm talking about. He doesn't feel like humans do, but at the same time, he still has methods of experiencing friendship and loss. this was not an episode where he was suddenly granted emotions, this is just Data being normal Data.

----------


## Godskook

> Most instances of emotionless characters in media that aren't supposed to be pretending to have emotions (implicitly or explicitly) act like they have emotions to a degree and  just don't emote and avoid the big ones like love or hate. Probably because it is hard to make them actual characters if they actually act entirely emotionless. I don't know how Data was explained but if he wasn't pretending it probably applies to him too.
> 
> I would say something being appealing falls under emotions btw. Though I suppose you can extend appeal to include whatever else motivates her actions. Hmm does something appeal to a computer program because it increases the chance of reaching its goals? I suppose it would make some sense to say yesj


Emotions aren't emotions.

Ok, wait, here me out.  We call a lot of things emotions, but many of them are explainable without any need for any sort of real emotion.  Favoring the company of those who have demonstrated previous acceptance of you is something we could "call" friendship and/or emotion, but it can also be derived logically.  Similarly, calling out a subordinate for disrespect would usually be seen as an "emotional" action, but the emotion is, in practice, either only an accentuation of the rational, or an extension of it.

As an example, take this scene:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMKtKNZw4Bo  Worf is displaying an emotional response to Data's command choices.  However, since Worf's underlying logical objections are not the problem(correct or incorrect as they may be), Data doesn't address them at all.  Instead Data focuses on explaining protocol to Worf, establishing -how- he should(and more importantly should not) go about expressing himself.  The entire private exchange is a logical discussion, something made quite clear by Worf's acting in the scene in how he pulls back from several emotional outbursts.  Admittedly, Data took great care to minimize the emotional impact of his scathing objections, but still, the entire dialog was pure logic following from experience and known axiomatic positions each character holds.

----------


## Ibrinar

> Emotions aren't emotions.
> 
> Ok, wait, here me out.  We call a lot of things emotions, but many of them are explainable without any need for any sort of real emotion.  Favoring the company of those who have demonstrated previous acceptance of you is something we could "call" friendship and/or emotion, but it can also be derived logically.  Similarly, calling out a subordinate for disrespect would usually be seen as an "emotional" action, but the emotion is, in practice, either only an accentuation of the rational, or an extension of it.


Yes and no. You can logically derive favoring the company but if you include actually interacting more than necessary for cooperative tasks in that then deriving that logically is done by realizing that humans respond to that and will be more likely to offer aid. In other words you do it to deliberately manipulate them. Which is fine of course because that is how the programmed variant of the emotionless character would act. But when it is an sympathetic character many authors don't seem eager to actually write it as them coldly manipulating the others so the emotionless character just kinda does it and one can maybe headcanon it as being for such a reason. (You can make it more palatable by making it a heuristic based behavior instead of direct logic but then you need to take care to actually differentiate that heuristic from feelings otherwise it might look pretty much the same.) I would group doing that for actual logical reasons under a character that deliberately pretends to have feelings.

From the clip Draconi posted I would just group Data as not feeling the same emotions as humans though because that sure sounds like a type of emotions though perhaps more limited.

----------


## Kish

Whether Data feels emotions depends on the episode, with some being "obviously" and one or two being "here it is actually plausible that he does not."

He does not _recognize_ anything he experiences as an emotion, even if that means he's saying, *Spoiler: Star Trek: The Next Generation*
Show

"Huh. Vulcans don't lie, so I have to believe what she just said was true. But I really wish I was capable of having gut feelings so that I had one to confirm it." *taps fingers, acts nervous, generally does everything short of screaming at the camera "MY GUT FEELING SAYS SHE'S LYING!"*

(If you didn't guess, the character in question was actually a Romulan spy.)

----------


## Keltest

> Whether Data feels emotions depends on the episode, with some being "obviously" and one or two being "here it is actually plausible that he does not."
> 
> He does not _recognize_ anything he experiences as an emotion, even if that means he's saying, *Spoiler: Star Trek: The Next Generation*
> Show
> 
> "Huh. Vulcans don't lie, so I have to believe what she just said was true. But I really wish I was capable of having gut feelings so that I had one to confirm it." *taps fingers, acts nervous, generally does everything short of screaming at the camera "MY GUT FEELING SAYS SHE'S LYING!"*
> 
> (If you didn't guess, the character in question was actually a Romulan spy.)


I disagree that a "gut feeling" as used in this context is actually an emotion. It is entirely possible to recognize that something seems wrong without being able to actually identify what it is with your conscious mind, and to struggle to put the pieces together, even without any emotional state. What an emotion might do is prompt you to act on this suspicion without any data to confirm it first, in a way that isn't just the gathering of said data.

----------


## Traab

> I disagree that a "gut feeling" as used in this context is actually an emotion. It is entirely possible to recognize that something seems wrong without being able to actually identify what it is with your conscious mind, and to struggle to put the pieces together, even without any emotional state. What an emotion might do is prompt you to act on this suspicion without any data to confirm it first, in a way that isn't just the gathering of said data.


Of course that still brings to question why a computer isnt able to put the pieces together as to why it doubts what it has been told. As an android data doesnt have a subconscious, he has a memory bank that he can either access or he can not. So either he noticed something was wrong or he didnt. If he did he would know what was wrong.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

as emotional beings, i think humans just can't understand what "no emotions" is.

i mean packbonding is a thing for a reason. i used to treat my humidifier like a hungry, whiny pet i had to feed with water every other day before it broke.

----------


## Keltest

> Of course that still brings to question why a computer isnt able to put the pieces together as to why it doubts what it has been told. As an android data doesnt have a subconscious, he has a memory bank that he can either access or he can not. So either he noticed something was wrong or he didnt. If he did he would know what was wrong.


The missing data of course. Logic says to believe the "vulcan", the information he has says "this is unusual", but since he doesnt have all the information, he cant logically and correctly then make the connection to "therefore it is wrong." Human emotional responses tell us to skill that and take a gamble on it, but by strictly logical reasoning, if you cant actually demonstrate that something is wrong, you cant really say its wrong.

----------


## Radar

> The missing data of course. Logic says to believe the "vulcan", the information he has says "this is unusual", but since he doesnt have all the information, he cant logically and correctly then make the connection to "therefore it is wrong." Human emotional responses tell us to skill that and take a gamble on it, but by strictly logical reasoning, if you cant actually demonstrate that something is wrong, you cant really say its wrong.


You can still do a wide analysis of various possible scenarios and estimate their probabilities based on the given knowledge of this and previous situations. Lack of subconscious would not prevent an android from not taking all the input at face value as over the years Data surely has encountered contradictory inputs often enough. He surely learned how to deal with imperfect information and is capable of solving abstract problems.

Besides even with current technology we can train a neural network to detect lies.

----------


## Morgaln

> as emotional beings, i think humans just can't understand what "no emotions" is.
> 
> i mean packbonding is a thing for a reason. i used to treat my humidifier like a hungry, whiny pet i had to feed with water every other day before it broke.


So you think your humidifier had emotions because it needed to be refilled? Or what was the point of that anecdote?

----------


## Willie the Duck

> So you think your humidifier had emotions because it needed to be refilled? Or what was the point of that anecdote?


Pretty sure they're saying they ascribed emotions to their appliance because they anthropomorphized it and then couldn't mentally view it as not having emotions.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Pretty sure they're saying they ascribed emotions to their appliance because they anthropomorphized it and then couldn't mentally view it as not having emotions.


pretty much this. anyone who's seen the story of "stabby the Roomba on a starship" will get the general idea.

or more generally, anyone who mentally assigned a personality to a stuffed animal or a toy as a child.

----------


## Willie the Duck

I certainly think conceiving (and more importantly portraying to an audience) a truly emotionless sapient sentient character is no mean feat.

----------


## Morgaln

> pretty much this. anyone who's seen the story of "stabby the Roomba on a starship" will get the general idea.
> 
> or more generally, anyone who mentally assigned a personality to a stuffed animal or a toy as a child.


Even as a child, I was perfectly aware that my stuffed animals or other toys where not alive and had no inherent personality, even while pretending they did during play.
I also don't attribute sentience, much less sapience to household appliances, computers or other devices. They are not alive and don't have motives for doing or not doing anything. They work the way they were constructed, nothing more or less. Judging from other people I know, however, I might be the odd man out here.




> I certainly think conceiving (and more importantly portraying to an audience) a truly emotionless sapient sentient character is no mean feat.


I agree. 
In addition, it's very easy for the audience to attribute emotions to an action even when it wasn't meant to be. Therefore it is important in writing such a character to regularly lay open the reasoning behind decisions and show that it is rational.

This is the issue I have with the "you're his mother" argument. By any rational reasoning, she's not his mother. Ears is technically not even her "flesh and blood" as Pawlush claims, because horns are not made from flesh, and Complains specifically said that there is no blood in the horn (yes, I know, figure of speech, not to be taken literally). Appealing to her as Ear's mother is trying to evoke a purely emotional bond. That bond she just shouldn't be able to feel; and there's no rational reasoning why she would spare his life based on the mother argument; so why did she?

----------


## Vinyadan

> I certainly think conceiving (and more importantly portraying to an audience) a truly emotionless sapient sentient character is no mean feat.


Ears isn't emotionless though?

(yes, it's a joke about conceiving).

----------


## Willie the Duck

> so why did she?


Again, despite what Elli has told us about angels, all evidence points to this angel having emotion (or having a response pattern which perfectly emulates it in outward display).

----------


## Vinyadan

> I suppose you mean like Jones?


Yes, although I got the impression that Jones isn't really as emotionless as she supposedly is. Annie also did.

----------


## Lvl 2 Expert

> Of course that still brings to question why a computer isnt able to put the pieces together as to why it doubts what it has been told. As an android data doesnt have a subconscious, he has a memory bank that he can either access or he can not. So either he noticed something was wrong or he didnt. If he did he would know what was wrong.


I agree. Not having a gut feeling, done right would be a pretty cool way to distinguish a robot character.

It's not necessarily true for all, or even most robot characters, I mean, even Windows can encounter unexpected errors, but it's certainly not unreasonable to have a robot character with no "black box" part to their brain. All their thinking is conscious, so they always know why they're thinking what their thinking. They would probably be a little puzzled by both emotions and gut feelings. "What do you mean, you just know it's wrong?" The robot can tell if something doesn't add up, but they'll be able to tell what doesn't add up.

The second difference between human subconscious and robots as we imagined them before we started working on things like self driving cars is that everything the robot does is based on hard logic, while our subconscious is more fuzzy logic based. A single braincell can weigh dozens or hundreds of factors, each counting as a positive or a negative with their own weight and their own signal strength, resulting in a single outcome that changes in real time as the factors change. It's a very efficient way of taking everything together. So I'd say that it is at least somewhat plausible that a pop culture android gets confused by situations where you would usually go off of many different small subconsciously noticed clues. Like reading the mood in a room. You see lots of different facial features and expressions, but you can still draw an overall conclusion and because of that pinpoint outliers. That wouldn't be a weird task for Data to fail at. Reading a single spy that he's actually focusing on trying to figure her out? Less likely.

But you know, even if one episode gets something "right"/does an interesting thing the next can take another route. 90's tv writing is inconsistent like that. It's like trying to pinpoint what that Klingon martial art Worf practices looks like. That's one of the reasons these shows got better with the seasons, when the actors were getting more comfortable about standing for what their character would do.

----------


## Lacco

> That bond she just shouldn't be able to feel; and there's no rational reasoning why she would spare his life based on the mother argument; so why did she?


Unfortunately, this one boils down to a simple OOC explanation, regardless of how eloquently people try to argue the IC explanation.

Because the author wants to (feel that).

----------


## Lvl 2 Expert

> Unfortunately, this one boils down to a simple OOC explanation, regardless of how eloquently people try to argue the IC explanation.
> 
> Because the author wants to (feel that).


I'd just ignore the older comment that angels and devils are all emotionless in this world. The simplest explanation is that this angel is clearly an emotional being and a world building detail changed since that comment. Even not-Walter was pretty emotional back in the Maze of Many (although that was an alternate universe not-Walter, and a lot of those universes were pretty different, so he doesn't really count either way). It doesn't contradict anything established in the comic itself (right?), so it's not even a real inconsistency. I also don't expect some massive tripplethink situation where 14 years from now it turns out the angel was faking emotions because... For that to work well the rule about no emotions would have needed to be established in the comic.

So, yeah, world detail changed between conception and publication.

Still interesting to see how and why it changed, but I wouldn't overthink it to try and make the situation fit.

----------


## Traab

> I'd just ignore the older comment that angels and devils are all emotionless in this world. The simplest explanation is that this angel is clearly an emotional being and a world building detail changed since that comment. Even not-Walter was pretty emotional back in the Maze of Many (although that was an alternate universe not-Walter, and a lot of those universes were pretty different, so he doesn't really count either way). It doesn't contradict anything established in the comic itself (right?), so it's not even a real inconsistency. I also don't expect some massive tripplethink situation where 14 years from now it turns out the angel was faking emotions because... For that to work well the rule about no emotions would have needed to be established in the comic.
> 
> So, yeah, world detail changed between conception and publication.
> 
> Still interesting to see how and why it changed, but I wouldn't overthink it to try and make the situation fit.


Also WAY back at the start of the comic, not walter was acting pretty disgusted with minmax and his behavior. Though too be fair those early comics are basically no longer canon iirc. Other than the broadest of strokes.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> So, yeah, world detail changed between conception and publication.
> 
> Still interesting to see how and why it changed, but I wouldn't overthink it to try and make the situation fit.


Thank you for making this argument cogently.

It's hard enough piecing together the comics into a coherent whole, without also having to incorporate world-building remarks from elsewhere. And within the comic itself, there's no rule of seniority saying that early world-building trumps everything subsequent. If a creative work contradicts itself, pick whichever canon makes more sense.

----------


## Traab

New update *Spoiler*
Show

Yeah Thaco is too old and annoyed to put up with this game. Im pretty sure he is about to call her out on the stupidity of this test where literally everyone fails and yet somehow always manages to come back, generally with a bonus of some sort.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Spoiler*
Show

Wait, how has she already read his sheet? Did she get it *before* he touched the watches?

----------


## Keltest

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Wait, how has she already read his sheet? Did she get it *before* he touched the watches?


Its an AD&D character sheet. Much easier to read.

----------


## Lvl 2 Expert

At least the creepy platform eyes seem to be gone. Corruption of all of goblin heaven prevented?

----------


## Vinyadan

Somehow, this page reminded me of Goblins. https://i.imgur.com/zRlDuiw.jpg

----------


## Jimorian

> Thank you for making this argument cogently.
> 
> It's hard enough piecing together the comics into a coherent whole, without also having to incorporate world-building remarks from elsewhere. And within the comic itself, there's no rule of seniority saying that early world-building trumps everything subsequent. If a creative work contradicts itself, pick whichever canon makes more sense.


This is one of the fundamental issues with webcomics or other online serialized storytelling. Whether there's an original detailed outline or not, or if it's even adhered to, it's inevitably a long drawn out FIRST draft with no opportunity that other writers have to go back and account for changes in ideas, character development, and even the changing skill of the author over time.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

that's not to say it's impossible to fix though. Back when i read Drowtales, they made multiple mentions of re-doing the first few chapters to match the art and plot direction they'd fallen into over time. Which made sense, as the first few chapters were pretty hard to follow, and i only ever really got invested once there as a main character (with a readable name) for the plot to revolve around. Before that it felt a lot more like every page was about a different character with a hard-to-read name, so i had no idea what was going on at the time.

Even in Goblins this has been done to some extent, the first black and white pages are coloured in with characters better resembling who they'd eventually become. Not quite the same as re-doing those early pages in the newer style, but it wouldn't be impossible to do.

----------


## Kornaki

> At least the creepy platform eyes seem to be gone. Corruption of all of goblin heaven prevented?


Good point. This maybe suggests that the whole thing is an illusion of some sort driven by their expectations.

----------


## Kantaki

> Good point. This maybe suggests that the whole thing is an illusion of some sort driven by their expectations.


At least the angel has to be real, considering the chopped off horn. Well, unless Ears turns back to not-blue the moment they leave.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> This is one of the fundamental issues with webcomics or other online serialized storytelling. Whether there's an original detailed outline or not, or if it's even adhered to, it's inevitably a long drawn out FIRST draft with no opportunity that other writers have to go back and account for changes in ideas, character development, and even the changing skill of the author over time.


*nods* Indeed. This is why serial writers and comic creators should learn to edit. Editing can be as joyful as writing, with enough experience.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> Good point. This maybe suggests that the whole thing is an illusion of some sort driven by their expectations.


I think it's the silly time dilation at work again. Time passes in the axe at 1000x speed, so an entity that can escape, like a flea demon, does so quicker than we mortals can follow.

I finally figured out what it takes to get a thread locked for something other than necromancy! Go check out the forum immediately above quick, before it disappears.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

new comic is up!

*Spoiler*
Show

 He's been wanting to do that for awhile hasn't he? :P

----------


## Radar

> new comic is up!
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
>  He's been wanting to do that for awhile hasn't he? :P


*Spoiler*
Show

Oh yes he did. You can see just how satisfied he is that for once he could just cut to the chase, be done with things on his terms and even order an angel around. If I would try to compare this to some other scene, I would probably pick this bit of Star Trek: Next Generation.

----------


## Traab

He clearly figured SOMETHING out to be that confident. Too bad it will be weeks before we get the chance to find out what. Also, if all he was going to do was refuse to play along and get himself sent back anyways, why go there in the first place? I figured he had a plan to get himself some sort of reward like names and ears got, but instead he basically only showed up to be a jerk. Off topic, any english majors on here? Something odd just popped up. I was going to write, "Only showed up to be an a**" and decided a jerk was a better phrasing going by board rules, so why does one sentence use "a" and the other use "an"?

----------


## Fyraltari

> He clearly figured SOMETHING out to be that confident. Too bad it will be weeks before we get the chance to find out what. Also, if all he was going to do was refuse to play along and get himself sent back anyways, why go there in the first place? I figured he had a plan to get himself some sort of reward like names and ears got, but instead he basically only showed up to be a jerk.


Don't they all get a free level up from this?
Edit: Seems like it.



> Off topic, any english majors on here? Something odd just popped up. I was going to write, "Only showed up to be an a**" and decided a jerk was a better phrasing going by board rules, so why does one sentence use "a" and the other use "an"?


Not an English major, but learning the language I was told it's a simple euphony thing. If the next word starts with a vowel sound, then the indefinite article "a" gets an extra n. Because "a elephant" is more awkward to say out loud than "an elephant".

----------


## Traab

That sounds about right. And nice catch on the level, I had forgotten about that. I was thinking more obvious rewards like the angel horn tip and such. But even so, the smug way he talked down to her with that little one crack. He clearly knew she wasnt going to do anything to him and had no choice in the matter and he clearly was right, because despite being enraged she did exactly that. And I would really like to know why. Is it just because he knows that as a lawful being she literally cant violate the rules of the little game she is playing? So he is free to say or do anything so long as it doesnt break the rules and she cant do anything about it? Or is there something more?

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I would really like to know why. Is it just because he knows that as a lawful being she literally cant violate the rules of the little game she is playing? So he is free to say or do anything so long as it doesnt break the rules and she cant do anything about it? Or is there something more?


It could be that she is actually good as well as lawful (perhaps a little frayed around the edges on both measures) and isn't going to thrash a goblin simply because he was being a jerk.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> That sounds about right. And nice catch on the level, I had forgotten about that. I was thinking more obvious rewards like the angel horn tip and such. But even so, the smug way he talked down to her with that little one crack. He clearly knew she wasnt going to do anything to him and had no choice in the matter and he clearly was right, because despite being enraged she did exactly that. And I would really like to know why. Is it just because he knows that as a lawful being she literally cant violate the rules of the little game she is playing? So he is free to say or do anything so long as it doesnt break the rules and she cant do anything about it? Or is there something more?


i feel like it was more of a gamble if he was right or wrong, and he'd just respond accordingly.

"No. Am i right?"
"Yes."
"Then i command you to send me back."
and he gets sent back, because she was going to do that anyways.

"No. Am i right?"
"No."
"Then i command you to try to kill me."
And she tries to kill him, which is again what she'd do anyways.


it's like saying "I COMEPLL THIS ELEVATOR TO RISE!" after pushing the "up" button on the elevator. it was going to rise anyways, and your "command" didn't actually do anything. you just sound kinda cool in your own head while doing it.

----------


## BaronOfHell

If all questions had been yes/no with the recipient being worse off knowing the question than answering randomly I could follow, but there was also the question of Fumbles' name.
Which mean there were many more ways that answering without hearing the question could be incorrect than correct, hence so far I have failed to grasp the logic of Thaco's decision.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> It could be that she is actually good as well as lawful (perhaps a little frayed around the edges on both measures) and isn't going to thrash a goblin simply because he was being a jerk.


More likely since she's a Lawful Good creature, he figured that if he gives the answer before the question she'll _pick a question to which it is the right answer_, because that's what a Good entity would do (especially if they can't _not_ do good).

----------


## Keltest

I think you guys are overthinking it. He's a grumpy old man who has lived a full life and isnt really interested in going through a big song and dance about introspection, and who knows that even if he gets the answer wrong he can just Monk his way out of the death trap.

----------


## Fyraltari

Yeah, he wasn't trying to game it, he just wanted to spite her.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> More likely since she's a Lawful Good creature, he figured that if he gives the answer before the question she'll _pick a question to which it is the right answer_, because that's what a Good entity would do (especially if they can't _not_ do good).


I was answering the question of why he was smugly talking down to her.

I agree with Keltest, he didn't know he was right, he was just not going to go through the song and dance.

----------


## Radar

> I was answering the question of why he was smugly talking down to her.
> 
> I agree with Keltest, he didn't know he was right, he was just not going to go through the song and dance.


In words of Roger Murtaugh: he is too old for this... stuff.

----------


## Vinyadan

I don't really get it, and the writing in the past encounters wit the angel doesn't make me expect a grand or fully logical explanation.

----------


## Godskook

> More likely since she's a Lawful Good creature, he figured that if he gives the answer before the question she'll _pick a question to which it is the right answer_, because that's what a Good entity would do (especially if they can't _not_ do good).


Really disagree here.  She already had the question set.  If it was *required*, a lawful good person wouldn't change the question.  And if it had not been set, a lawful good entity -still- would've attempted to be lawful about it, such as by randomizing the y/n value that's correct or deliberately asking it "wrong" in hopes Thaco would change his answer once he realized it was incorrect.

The one thing she ***WOULD NOT*** do is cheat to give him a free win.

----------------------

Of course, that's all assuming that answering the question is in some way required.  If it's all pageantry to provoke change in the visitor, then her goals shift dramatically, and she'd have "maintaining the farce in general" as one of her goals.  And we've speculated already in this thread prior to Thaco's turn that this might just be pageantry.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> hence so far I have failed to grasp the logic of Thaco's decision.


well then that's the problem. you're looking for logic where there is none.

There was no logic to Thaco's decision.

Thaco just wanted to be a **** while also getting it over with as fast as possible.

----------


## Sholos

I thought it was cute that Thaco thinks his demand meant anything. I found it weird that she bothered getting angry about since he's just posturing.

----------


## Keltest

> I thought it was cute that Thaco thinks his demand meant anything. I found it weird that she bothered getting angry about since he's just posturing.


She's nominally Lawful Good (i think) so rubbing her face in the idea that yes, the Rules say she has to do this thing now, is actually correct.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> I thought it was cute that Thaco thinks his demand meant anything. I found it weird that she bothered getting angry about since he's just posturing.


it doesn't mean anything and he knows it. She was going to let him go anyways, he just saw the opportunity to be a **** to an angel and took it.

that's all it is. ya'll vastly overthinking things.

----------


## remetagross

New comic is up...and it's unexpected, to say the least.

----------


## Fyraltari

> New comic is up...and it's unexpected, to say the least.


It... Doesn't look like it's supposed to be up yet?

----------


## remetagross

Yeah, I guess you're right.

----------


## mythmonster2

Ellipsis clarified on Twitter that she uploaded the unfinished version and will be updating it

----------


## Vinyadan

Well, nice work on those heads.

----------


## Fyraltari

Is Kore supposed to be climbing in panel 2? Because his right arm looks wrong for that.

----------


## Anteros

It's already pretty gross. I don't want to see it in color.

----------


## Lapak

> It's already pretty gross. I don't want to see it in color.


I actually found it much easier to actually distinguish both the face-shapes and Kore's overall shape in black and white; looking at the old pages it gets more muddled in color. I expect it will be less disturbing that way.

----------


## JeenLeen

Were the arms covered in armor before (such that we wouldn't have seen faces), or is this a change?

If a change, I wonder if that means souls can be used to fuel healing (in a sense)... but the head-chunk is still missing, so probably not, though obviously having an intact head appears optional.

----------


## Traab

Its hard to tell but I think he has removed almost all of his armor. its probably all too damaged to bother with anymore. We are seeing that he is some sort of unholy flesh golem covered in the screaming faces of his victims from head to toe. You know, normal paladin stuff.

----------


## Kantaki

The longer I look at Kore the goofier he looks. :Small Amused: 
No I idea why, but after a while the whole "body made from countless tiny screaming faces" thing flips from creepy and horrifying to just plain funny.

----------


## Traab

Maybe its because he is being cut down piece by piece? Its like fighting one of those huge rpg bosses in video games where the first few times you have to run away as soon as possible, but eventually you are able to weaken him over time until the final battle where you can finish him off. First the GAP did damage with the rope through the throat trick, causing some lasting damage, then forgath did more damage to both him and his gear, then we had the golem bash kore around and cause a LOT of damage. Now he is missing his armor, his weapons, and is gravely wounded. Badly enough that HE fled the fight. He is on his last legs and cant afford to run into minmax and the gap again. If he does before he has time to recover, he WILL be torn apart.

----------


## Vinyadan

For someone who was introduced as an unkillable abomination, Kore did lose a lot of his charm: he was tricked once with the rope, couldn't kill Forgath, was tricked again by Kin, the GAP soundly defeated him, and he doesn't even appear to be doing too well at dungeoneering, since he already fell through the roof once. By now, he is a problem only because he is the prison of Chief's soul, so the Goblins cannot evade him, but instead have to look for him and fight him to the bitter end (which would also save the village).

*Spoiler*
Show

Unless when he dies it turns out that Kore also was the prison to some other superdemon, or that the million souls he contained will cause a demonic singularity converging at Kore's last position.





> I actually found it much easier to actually distinguish both the face-shapes and Kore's overall shape in black and white; looking at the old pages it gets more muddled in color. I expect it will be less disturbing that way.


I'm actually happy the page was uploaded in this version, I think it looks better than Kore usually does with the later steps (maybe with colour, shading and reflections it simply becomes overloaded), and it shows how much effort went in the pencils.

----------


## Anteros

> For someone who was introduced as an unkillable abomination, Kore did lose a lot of his charm: he was tricked once with the rope, couldn't kill Forgath, was tricked again by Kin, the GAP soundly defeated him, and he doesn't even appear to be doing too well at dungeoneering, since he already fell through the roof once. By now, he is a problem only because he is the prison of Chief's soul, so the Goblins cannot evade him, but instead have to look for him and fight him to the bitter end (which would also save the village).


Well, the problem with unstoppable super villains that kill everything is that you can't really have your characters interact much with them without either killing your characters or worfing your villain.

Honestly, as portrayed Kore isn't that intimidating. If Minmax had just joined Forgath on the bridge instead of holding the gate they could have probably put him down.

----------


## Radar

> For someone who was introduced as an unkillable abomination, Kore did lose a lot of his charm: he was tricked once with the rope, couldn't kill Forgath, was tricked again by Kin, the GAP soundly defeated him, and he doesn't even appear to be doing too well at dungeoneering, since he already fell through the roof once. By now, he is a problem only because he is the prison of Chief's soul, so the Goblins cannot evade him, but instead have to look for him and fight him to the bitter end (which would also save the village).


One has to remember that almost everyone in goblinverse has no PC classes and does not gain levels. So a well equipped paladin with quite a few levels under his belt would seem unstoppable. Forgath, Minmax and GAP have both levels and gear far beyond what typical monsters (or for example dwarves) that Kore has dealt with before would have.

----------


## Traab

> Well, the problem with unstoppable super villains that kill everything is that you can't really have your characters interact much with them without either killing your characters or worfing your villain.
> 
> Honestly, as portrayed Kore isn't that intimidating. If Minmax had just joined Forgath on the bridge instead of holding the gate they could have probably put him down.


Ive honestly felt that way since before the whole rope thing. Kore has gotten by on slaughtering low level npcs. Wiping out relatively low level monster camps through sheer weight of level carrying him through as we could tell by the way he uses nothing but crossbows and basic hatchets. His gear, while clever, is nonmagical,  and considering the monty haul setup all adventurers seem to stumble into in this world, that makes for a HUGE disadvantage against them as we saw with forgath. Despite estimates saying kore is what, 14-15? Forgath was able to get darn close to soloing someone three times his level due to stacking magic items.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

keep in mind that we HAVE seen examples of Kore's brutality. both at the monster bar, and the river / bridge with the GAP trying to escape him. Just because he's been beat down due to some overpowered magic items and tricks doesn't mean he's not still a badass.

----------


## Traab

> keep in mind that we HAVE seen examples of Kore's brutality. both at the monster bar, and the river / bridge with the GAP trying to escape him. Just because he's been beat down due to some overpowered magic items and tricks doesn't mean he's not still a badass.


But thats the thing, he is only a badass relative to low level npcs. By the time you reach level 5 and are part of a party, he starts becoming an encounter. True to win requires a specific set of gear that provides a large bonus, but you can see it rapidly closing from unstoppable force of monster destroying malice to "really tough fight, approach with caution" By the time they hit 7 I bet it becomes winnable fight without special gear tailored specifically for this opponent. Because even the nontargeted magic items are crazy strong and they are everywhere!

That being said, this setting is pretty clearly low level in general as just hitting level 2 is worthy of celebration and people like goblinslayer are legendary warriors while still being weak enough to lose to a well prepared ambush from a very low level goblin monk. So I do understand why kore is considered the boogeyman. If 90% of the population could be casually slaughtered by him, thats pretty impressive. But to experienced adventurers, he isnt that scary. (aside from his face)

----------


## Anarchic Fox

So, now we get to witness how awful Ellipsis' workflow is in real time.  :Small Yuk:  Two or three days after the linework was posted we get... basic shading.

----------


## Fyraltari

> So, now we get to witness how awful Ellipsis' workflow is in real time.  Two or three days after the linework was posted we get... basic shading.


Kore's skin looks rather time-consuming if we're being honest.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> Kore's skin looks rather time-consuming if we're being honest.


And it's going to be showing in every comic until the next scene change.  :Small Annoyed:

----------


## Traab

I actually really like how smooth the last room looks.

----------


## Androgeus

> And it's going to be showing in every comic until the next scene change.


If I was Eli, I would be contriving a reason for Kore to find a new gloves.

----------


## Lurkmoar

Kore getting some new magic gear would increase his threat. Maybe some Gauntlets of Ogre Power?

----------


## Vinyadan

> Kore getting some new magic gear would increase his threat. Maybe some Gauntlets of Ogre Power?


Maybe a magical item that gives tiny horns to all of the heads on his body, and maybe also a nosering!

----------


## Typewriter

Random observation: This thread is usually only ever active for a couple days after each update. Now that we've had multiple updates on the same page we've had multiple bouts of discussion spawn as a result. I don't know what point I'm trying to make but I think there's something funny in that.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Yeah, that's why I try to wait a week or so before jumping in. Anyway, here's a fan theory for y'all: Kore has no magical equipment because Detect Magic is a first-level spell every arcane spellcaster knows. And being underestimated is a potent tactic.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Yeah, that's why I try to wait a week or so before jumping in. Anyway, here's a fan theory for y'all: Kore has no magical equipment because Detect Magic is a first-level spell every arcane spellcaster knows. And being underestimated is a potent tactic.


I'd buy that for Goblinslayer (not the one in this comic, I mean the character in the series of the same name). Kore, the first thing we know about him is that almost all the local humanoids (minus one clueless guy there to allow for exposition to inform the audience as well) know of him and fear him.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> I'd buy that for Goblinslayer (not the one in this comic, I mean the character in the series of the same name). Kore, the first thing we know about him is that almost all the local humanoids (minus one clueless guy there to allow for exposition to inform the audience as well) know of him and fear him.


...Minus all the humanoids that can be used as player characters. The sundry elves and humans didn't seem particularly afraid.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> ...Minus all the humanoids that can be used as player characters. The sundry elves and humans didn't seem particularly afraid.


Humanoids as in the TSR-era term -- not humans or demihumans. Regardless, I meant the denizens of that room in the referenced strip (which I could have listed out by specific species, although to be honest I'm not sure I know what each one is).

----------


## Anarchic Fox

I stand by my theory. If a group of monsters sees a heavily armed dwarf approaching with no magic (and many monsters innately sense magic), they'll think "we can take him if we work together." If they detect magic armor and weaponry, they'll think "screw this, everyone run."

On the other hand, when Kore gets around to killing an entire clan of dwarves, maybe he first stops at a cache of magical goodies he set up long before, in an abandoned dungeon. (Since there's no shortage of those.)

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I stand by my theory. If a group of monsters sees a heavily armed dwarf approaching with no magic (and many monsters innately sense magic), they'll think "we can take him if we work together." If they detect magic armor and weaponry, they'll think "screw this, everyone run."


And I stand by the notion that that is a reasonable strategy in isolation, but information we have available is that those against which we've seen Kore go up against have known who he was, and were afraid of him.




> On the other hand, when Kore gets around to killing an entire clan of dwarves, maybe he first stops at a cache of magical goodies he set up long before, in an abandoned dungeon. (Since there's no shortage of those.)


Sure, it's a possibility. We have precious little information on how that went down.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> And I stand by the notion that that is a reasonable strategy in isolation, but information we have available is that those against which we've seen Kore go up against have known who he was, and were afraid of him.
> 
> 
> Sure, it's a possibility. We have precious little information on how that went down.


I see this argument ending with a Stats and Geekery thread for Goblins, so I'm going to bow out here.  :Small Wink:

----------


## Kish

Kore carries magic items. Even if his armor and weapons are entirely nonmagical, he used one to interrogate Young-And-Beautiful.

----------


## Traab

Wasnt that just a spell component for speak with dead or whatever?

----------


## Dragonus45

> Wasnt that just a spell component for speak with dead or whatever?


In retrospect knowing he is a spell caster it's kind of unclear. Although normally that spell is not on his spell list.

----------


## Lizard Lord

> In retrospect knowing he is a spell caster it's kind of unclear. Although normally that spell is not on his spell list.


It is not on the Paladin spell list, but I thought he is able to pull from all the souls trapped inside him.

----------


## Kish

Speak with Dead or Whatever.

No spell components. Does require a divine focus, but while I am not going to track down the actual comic, I am misremembering it quite severely if the item he pulled out was 1) anything that resembled any religion's holy symbol, and 2) not used up. In any event, on the flip side, is there any evidence that Kore has no magic items? This strikes me as quite a random idea.

----------


## Dragonus45

> It is not on the Paladin spell list, but I thought he is able to pull from all the souls trapped inside him.


He gets to cheat by pretending he is the alignment of anyone inside of him, he doesn't get their class levels or racial abilities.

----------


## Vinyadan

> He gets to cheat by pretending he is the alignment of anyone inside of him, he doesn't get their class levels or racial abilities.


There was some debate on this back in the day, I even wrote an alternate ending around the concept: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=773  :Small Big Grin: 

More seriously, I think you are right: Kore is a paladin, and wants to stay a paladin, and cheats for the purpose of staying a paladin, so alignment is all he needs. It would be very odd and sudden if he could e.g. get the skill points of a skillmonkey class, or his BAB sank because he was ambushed while checking for traps as a rogue. It sounds more like a mecha configuration thing, than an actual character.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

*ears perk*

----------


## Traab

> Speak with Dead or Whatever.
> 
> No spell components. Does require a divine focus, but while I am not going to track down the actual comic, I am misremembering it quite severely if the item he pulled out was 1) anything that resembled any religion's holy symbol, and 2) not used up. In any event, on the flip side, is there any evidence that Kore has no magic items? This strikes me as quite a random idea.


We havent seen any of his gear perform as if it was magical. No glowy effects or anything, its basically all just clever machinery to give him an advantage, like his shield harness thing, or how its shaped to let him fire tons of crossbow bolts at a time and fast reload. Im not saying he has no magical items, im talking about his weapons and armor.

----------


## Morgaln

> We havent seen any of his gear perform as if it was magical. No glowy effects or anything, its basically all just clever machinery to give him an advantage, like his shield harness thing, or how its shaped to let him fire tons of crossbow bolts at a time and fast reload. Im not saying he has no magical items, im talking about his weapons and armor.


This is something of a tangent, but the shield setup probably shouldn't be called "clever" when it is physically impossible to work as shown in the comic.

I do agree that none of Kore's equipment seems to be magical, though.

----------


## Kornaki

> This is something of a tangent, but the shield setup probably shouldn't be called "clever" when it is physically impossible to work as shown in the comic.
> 
> I do agree that none of Kore's equipment seems to be magical, though.


That just means it's really clever if you can't figure it out!

----------


## Vinyadan

> That just means it's really clever if you can't figure it out!


Or maybe it's magical!  :Biggrin:

----------


## Kantaki

> The longer I look at Kore the goofier he looks.
> No I idea why, but after a while the whole "body made from countless tiny screaming faces" thing flips from creepy and horrifying to just plain funny.


Quoting myself, because looking at the coloured page?
Yeah, definitely goofy looking.

It's just too much.
The glowing headhole could work.
The  trapped souls of his victims struggling to escape from his body might make for a spooky image.
But all of this? No. Just no.
Maybe if he weren't so visible.

Stick Kore into the shadows, throw in some fog and use a cheap camera that's been dropped a few times and you might get a halfway servicable B-movie monster.

----------


## Willie the Duck

On some level it could be deliberate (mind you, it's also just a goofy look). Kore was supposed to be an unstoppable and unknowable force when he was a mysterious figure under the armor plating. The more we've actually gotten to seen him -- and the act of significantly up-powered PCs slowly destroying said armor (and his head) such that we can see him -- the less impressive he has become. I think someone previously mentioned how he's gotten less and less threatening as the PCs have levelled and gotten a whole bunch of impressive magic loot, and that certainly seems to be the case. It does make  one wonder if the final showdown with him is going to be another _'oh, yes, you. You're a speed bump now.'_ like Goblinslayer was.

But yeah, this shot of him is kinda like Batman in the daytime/those production lot pics of the Xenomorph where you can see the guy wearing the costume's pink shorts that are out-of-shot in the movie, etc. Takes all intimidation factor right out of it.

----------


## Keltest

I think what really does it for me is the hands. They dont look like hands, i cant identify anything hand like about them, and when the fingers arent drawn separately, they arent even visible. They just look like a stump made of more howling souls, which is... well, that particular drama is done i think.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

that's not exactly a new thing though. lots of monsters get less scary when you know what they look like. a xenomorph's a xenomorph but two glowing eyes in the darkness could be ANYTHING!


i don't really think it's a problem here though. he's already been big and scary while clad in all that armor. we're just finding out where it goes from here.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> that's not exactly a new thing though. lots of monsters get less scary when you know what they look like. a xenomorph's a xenomorph but two glowing eyes in the darkness could be ANYTHING!
> 
> 
> i don't really think it's a problem here though. he's already been big and scary while clad in all that armor. we're just finding out where it goes from here.


Oh, absolutely! No disagreement there.

----------


## Vinyadan

> that's not exactly a new thing though. lots of monsters get less scary when you know what they look like. a xenomorph's a xenomorph but two glowing eyes in the darkness could be ANYTHING!


Well, we know that it wouldn't be a xenomorph  :Biggrin:

----------


## Fyraltari

> Well, we know that it wouldn't be a xenomorph


Of course not, xenomorphs can't teleport people.
 :Mitd:

----------


## Kantaki

> Of course not, xenomorphs can't teleport people.


More importantly they don't have umbrellas. :Small Amused: 
What? Did anyone really expect me to comment about the wrong eye colour?

----------


## Draconi Redfir

I did not make that post with the monster in the darkness in mind. so you got me there!

----------


## Quild

New page.
With colour, shading and all the stuff.

*Spoiler*
Show

no clue how he intends to progress.
Wouldn't the obvious thing be to crawl under the faces?

----------


## Fyraltari

> New page.
> With colour, shading and all the stuff.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> no clue how he intends to progress.
> Wouldn't the obvious thing be to crawl under the faces?


*Spoiler*
Show

I guess he intends to go very carefully around the blades, but yes, crawling is the first thing that came to my mind as well. Then again, he has a big hole where part of his brain should be.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

*Spoiler*
Show

 Waling on the blade-end might make sense if you think about it. At least one of those faces had to move slightly in order to blow on the pebble. so who knows if they can also move up and down. if wind is going to blow, may as well have it pushing you into a wall instead of into a pit or a blade.

----------


## Gez

The smart thing to do is to walk on the blade side and jam or break them, so that they're not a threat anymore.

----------


## Traab

Of course, that would be easier to do if he wasnt missing all his gear and so would have to basically punch the blades to death. He is kinda stuck right now. Of course, with how these dungeons work, he will make it past this room and find a treasure trove of +12 to armor and hit gear that grows more powerful for every life you ended. Then when he grabs the weapon off its stand the floor vanishes and drops him towards lava.

----------


## Anteros

Frankly, I just don't care about Kore or how he makes it through the dungeon.  He's much better as an "unstoppable force" antagonist that just shows up.  Showing him struggling against traps only serves to make him even less intimidating than he already is.

----------


## Quild

> Frankly, I just don't care about Kore or how he makes it through the dungeon.  He's much better as an "unstoppable force" antagonist that just shows up.  Showing him struggling against traps only serves to make him even less intimidating than he already is.


Maybe Thunt is going to do one of these things where you slowly starts to root for the character you used to hate.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Maybe Thunt is going to do one of these things where you slowly starts to root for the character you used to hate.


It's Ell now. But yeah that could be interesting.

Think it might be more of a case of us seeing how experienced he is and how he's gone through the motions all before. Feel like this is going to be less "Kore is struggling to overcome the dungeon" and more "the dungeon is struggling to overcome Kore."

i mean for all we know his plan is to jam the sawblade by shoving his metal boot under one of the teeth and letting it turn on, locking it in place until the mechanism spinning it snaps and breaks the whole trap.

----------


## Vinyadan

He could just duck beneath the chins (although the statues can move like flesh, so who knows, maybe one face would bend over and bite his head).

----------


## Draconi Redfir

yeah i figure that's why he's going for the sawblades rather then under the statues. they seem to be able to move at least a bit, so they might be able to look down and blow him into the pit at minimum.

----------


## Waistcoatwill

> Quoting myself, because looking at the coloured page?
> Yeah, definitely goofy looking.
> 
> It's just too much.
> The glowing headhole could work.
> The  trapped souls of his victims struggling to escape from his body might make for a spooky image.
> But all of this? No. Just no.
> Maybe if he weren't so visible.
> 
> Stick Kore into the shadows, throw in some fog and use a cheap camera that's been dropped a few times and you might get a halfway servicable B-movie monster.


The new page demonstrated this perfectly:
Kore in shadow with the glowing headhole - menacing and spooky.
Fully lit Kore edging along sideways - bizarre and a tad ridiculous.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

So new update came out last night

looks like i called it, using his boot to block the saws!  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Fyraltari

That's some pretty solid boots.

----------


## Traab

> That's some pretty solid boots.


Ehhh its surprising how easy it can be to jam saw blades. it depends on how much power is behind making them spin, and keeping them from getting up to speed. It looks like he finessed the activation distance of the blades to jam his boot in there. Kin probably could have done the same with mage hand or something.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

The art continues to improve. To my eye, Kore went from looking kinda silly two pages ago to looking properly creepy on this page.

----------


## Vinyadan

New update.

Well, it makes sense.

*Spoiler*
Show

It never dawned on me that Kore wasn't actually bolted to his equipment, and, with the rate of damage everyone's stuff takes in Goblins, he probably just grabbed whatever nice loot he found over his travels. However, Thac0 does recognise him from the metal door shield, while the other goblins had never heard of it, so it sounds like he had had it for at least, let's say ten years.

----------


## Gez

Kore's been losing his equipment and taking damage while the protagonists have gained a lot of munchkin items. So giving Kore his own opportunity to gather munchkin items is a simple way to reestablish his very damaged threat factor.

He's still goofy-looking though. It took me a while to figure out that it was his head in the foreground, and not a very wide thumb on his hand.

----------


## Lord Torath

> Kore's been losing his equipment and taking damage while the protagonists have gained a lot of munchkin items. So giving Kore his own opportunity to gather munchkin items is a simple way to reestablish his very damaged threat factor.
> 
> He's still goofy-looking though. It took me a while to figure out that it was his head in the foreground, and not a very wide thumb on his hand.


I'd recommend avoiding the 'chest' though.  It looks shifty.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

this world seems pretty low-level on average. i wouldn't be surprised if Kore's old armor was custom made and just all he needed up until this point. So few people get magic gear or enough levels to really be an issue. that and the Goblins have likely been playing a lot smarter then normal just out of necessity. other parties might not think to throw a rope through the guy or use a giant door-moving golem for combat.

----------


## Traab

Agreed, hitting level 2 is considered an achievement to be proud of. This world is grim as heck in death tolls, but its also absolutely riddled with monty haul dungeons. Its like the DM ruling this world has decided to balance ludicrous lethality with huge prizes for surviving. If you can survive long enough to reach a treasure room you will walk out absurdly stronger than when you started. Assuming the inevitable trap doesnt kill you. (lol pearl) And yes, im guessing the chest is a mimic. I wonder if this room has limits on what you can take? Its clearly setup to give a balanced party significant rewards for everyone. An upper body plate armor, a giant sledge, a bow, a glaive, a staff and spellbook, a sword, paired daggers, that skull and candle thing may be decorative, or it may be a nice magical item. There is even some gold strewn about.  The odd thing is, even the trapped treasure isnt that common. We had the goblins get nearly slaughtered by the exploding pearl after they got so greedy they grabbed everything at once without stopping to think or examine them. The maze of many just flat out gave each winning party member an absurd reward, plus there were those chests and such on the way that gave minmax some seriously tough armor and that broken sword of his. (Though that was more an exploit than a function it was meant to have) Heck way back when the gobbos were walking through the swamp they found a nice treasure haul after dealing with that plant monster that gave them all something useful gear wise. 

Small side note, that glaive in the upper corner, it looks a lot like the weapon that forgath copy who had enslaved notwalter was using.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Small side note, that glaive in the upper corner, it looks a lot like the weapon that forgath copy who had enslaved notwalter was using.


Minmax* But hey you're right! Neat!

----------


## Anteros

Yup...still don't care.  No story ever needs a montage of the bad guy gearing up.  Move on already.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Yup...still don't care.  No story ever needs a montage of the bad guy gearing up.  Move on already.


Something something Highlander.

----------


## Quild

I sure hope there is a catch like the LOL pearl.

----------


## Traab

> Yup...still don't care.  No story ever needs a montage of the bad guy gearing up.  Move on already.


So were you throwing popcorn at the screen of the Two Towers film when sarumans orc army was getting its gear together and preparing for war?  Plenty of stories have some variation of the bad guy getting ready, either for the opening round, or round two. I bet had we not had this scene you would be angry and complaining when kore shows up in shiny new gear with a giant sledgehammer weapon or whatever. "Where did THAT come from? Omg this is stupid, you cant just have the bad guy show up with new and improved gear with no explanation!"

----------


## Anteros

> So were you throwing popcorn at the screen of the Two Towers film when sarumans orc army was getting its gear together and preparing for war?  Plenty of stories have some variation of the bad guy getting ready, either for the opening round, or round two. I bet had we not had this scene you would be angry and complaining when kore shows up in shiny new gear with a giant sledgehammer weapon or whatever. "Where did THAT come from? Omg this is stupid, you cant just have the bad guy show up with new and improved gear with no explanation!"


If 2 Towers had an entire arc where Saruman's army slowly lost their gear, became less threatening, and then struggled to to get an upgrade?  I somewhat doubt it would be considered the timeless classic it currently is.  Since that's incredibly stupid and a waste of screen time.  Besides, it's less like 2 Towers, and more like if Jason Voorhees lost his machete halfway through the movie and we got a montage of him hunting down a new one.  It's dumb, and a complete waste of time.  The monster is intimidating because it's a monster, not because of their equipment.  Kore was an intimidating antagonist at first because he comes across as an unstoppable monster stalking the party like Jason.  He's slowly become more and more of a joke as the story went on.  Having him walk into a room with a bunch of free loot doesn't make him intimidating again.  Ideally, when writing a story you want the antagonist to be the main threat to your characters, not a bunch of random crap they found on the ground.  

As for your second point...I can make up things for you to say and argue against them too if you want?  I'm sure it's much easier than addressing actual arguments, but I don't really see what it accomplishes since everyone knows it's just something you made up.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

I see this as being no different then a scene in a Jason movie where Jason crawls out of a collapsing, burning building, and grabs a fire axe off the nearby firetruck before continuing on his rampage. Narratively it's a short blip to just show the villain's survivability and explain where they got the new gear. You're only whining about it because it's taking a long time IRL. it's four pages out of hundreds man, just like Jason grabbing the fire axe would be four minutes out of two hours. calm down.


This is how we avoid the "Well where the hell did he get THAT!?" crowd when the villain shows up again with something new to kill the protagonists with. Remember when Jason busted down the wall with a minigun we'd never seen before and had no reason to suspect was anywhere in rural Missouri? Yeah, me neither.

----------


## The Glyphstone

> I see this as being no different then a scene in a Jason movie where Jason crawls out of a collapsing, burning building, and grabs a fire axe off the nearby firetruck before continuing on his rampage. Narratively it's a short blip to just show the villain's survivability and explain where they got the new gear. You're only whining about it because it's taking a long time IRL. it's four pages out of hundreds man, just like Jason grabbing the fire axe would be four minutes out of two hours. calm down.
> 
> 
> This is how we avoid the "Well where the hell did he get THAT!?" crowd when the villain shows up again with something new to kill the protagonists with. Remember when Jason busted down the wall with a minigun we'd never seen before and had no reason to suspect was anywhere in rural Missouri? Yeah, me neither.


He got it from the same place the T-800 got his minigun in Terminator 2, obviously. :Small Cool:

----------


## Anteros

> I see this as being no different then a scene in a Jason movie where Jason crawls out of a collapsing, burning building, and grabs a fire axe off the nearby firetruck before continuing on his rampage. Narratively it's a short blip to just show the villain's survivability and explain where they got the new gear. You're only whining about it because it's taking a long time IRL. it's four pages out of hundreds man, just like Jason grabbing the fire axe would be four minutes out of two hours. calm down.
> 
> 
> This is how we avoid the "Well where the hell did he get THAT!?" crowd when the villain shows up again with something new to kill the protagonists with. Remember when Jason busted down the wall with a minigun we'd never seen before and had no reason to suspect was anywhere in rural Missouri? Yeah, me neither.


I suppose that's the difference between a short 6 second clip and a series of updates that take literal months to come in a plot that already moves like a turtle covered in frozen molasses.  Under the effect of a time stop.  

Maybe when the story is done my great, great, great, etc grandchildren will look back at it and it'll flow much smoother.  It will give them much comfort as they await the imminent heat death of the universe.

----------


## Taevyr

To be fair, the entire 'verse in which the story takes place seems to work on "equipment>character power". Virtually every character is more empowered by the various items, rituals and/or templates they gained than by any of their character levels, and it shows. It's less a case of a monster showing their survivability and tenaciousness, and more a case of a monster being (mostly) defanged and slinking away to find a new source of power.

Not that much less compelling over the course of a full story, but here it's just too long in terms of time between updates and pages, and "humanizes" a supposed eldritch horror far too much. Kore was already slowly becoming a joke : this just cements that, despite being a capable adventurer, he still owed his rep to gear and the curse that plays him like a fiddle.

----------


## Traab

> If 2 Towers had an entire arc where Saruman's army slowly lost their gear, became less threatening, and then struggled to to get an upgrade?  I somewhat doubt it would be considered the timeless classic it currently is.  Since that's incredibly stupid and a waste of screen time.  Besides, it's less like 2 Towers, and more like if Jason Voorhees lost his machete halfway through the movie and we got a montage of him hunting down a new one.  It's dumb, and a complete waste of time.  The monster is intimidating because it's a monster, not because of their equipment.  Kore was an intimidating antagonist at first because he comes across as an unstoppable monster stalking the party like Jason.  He's slowly become more and more of a joke as the story went on.  Having him walk into a room with a bunch of free loot doesn't make him intimidating again.  Ideally, when writing a story you want the antagonist to be the main threat to your characters, not a bunch of random crap they found on the ground.  
> 
> As for your second point...I can make up things for you to say and argue against them too if you want?  I'm sure it's much easier than addressing actual arguments, but I don't really see what it accomplishes since everyone knows it's just something you made up.


The entire scene of sarumans forces hatching or whatever it is they do to be born, making swords and armor by the ton, gearing up, getting their faces slapped with a white handprint, hearing his speech about going to war, etc, would probably have been at least 5 comics worth of updates to cover. Its kind of ridiculous to treat a fairly short interlude as if its some sort of terrible burden to suffer through when its actually kind of important to the story. Because no matter how hard you try to deflect, you know as well as i do that had kore just vanished for a dozen comics only to show back up fully geared with no explanation readers would have been even more annoyed by that. Kore isnt Jason, he doesnt rely on jump scares to be scary. He is the implacable monster you know is coming and who cant be stopped. Seeing how he survived and is now gearing back up, undoing the vast majority of all the gains that have happened since they started fighting him, is rebuilding the tension. Because now we know he is coming back stronger than ever. Before he was in fairly standard off the rack gear and it took multiple applications of absurd gear bonuses and luck to destroy most of it and injure him. Now he is going to be wearing much more powerful gear, and the GAP are all out of strong golems to control, or +7 axes to attack him with. He is also not the main threat of the story. He is just one of several major issues the GAP is dealing with. Personally I think the gradually worsening connection to HELL is a bit more important of a threat to worry about.

----------


## Willie the Duck

I think it would be possible for this to have been covered more succinctly. Perhaps with the goblins discussing this same villain decay and then one of them admonishing 'don't count him out, monsters like Kore always seem to find ways to recover from setbacks [cut to last panel of today, possibly pulled back a little to show all of Kore in silhouette].'

That said, I don't see why that would be better. The strip and the story is about the journey. We generally know what is going to happen, most likely (the protagonists win, albeit with further loss and trauma), so it is how we get there that is the value of the strip. 

I can see both sides of it. Those of us experiencing the strip as it comes out feel a slower output because Elli's rate of output has declined since bitd. OTOH, if you look at the actual on-page pacing, truncating the plot towards briefest way of accomplishing them would seem off (perhaps even 'last season of GoT'-ish, where everyone seems to be rushing about overquick).

----------


## Ibrinar

Aside from Kore looking goofy armor less I personally don't have an issue with these pages. If the number stays small. (Otherwise the lack of dialog will get boring.) He started out as somewhat mysterious monstrous unstoppable threat but that doesn't really describe him anymore and that is fine. Now he is an surmountable but strong, corrupted and kinda mad paladin and in that role I don't mind a scene about him. Whether this is just showing his power up or has more of a purpose (it is possible that he is supposed to be explored more since we now know his basic backstory, though probably this is just powerup).
Though I do understand the complaints.

----------


## Morgaln

I think showing Kore as he finds new gear is absolutely necessary. It's better to explain that beforehand and use it to foreshadow his return in a more powerful form.
However, the three pages of "Kore gets past a trap" were unnecessary. It doesn't add anything to the character or the story, and will almost certainly not be relevant for anything that happens in the future. So this could have been better handled in a single page of "Kore emerges from water -> Kore opens door -> Kore finds loot".

----------


## Cazero

> However, the three pages of "Kore gets past a trap" were unnecessary.


Disagree. Without them, you'd get complaints about how of course the villain doesn't face crazy deathtraps every other step.

----------


## Traab

> Disagree. Without them, you'd get complaints about how of course the villain doesn't face crazy deathtraps every other step.


For me its more, "how do we show a trap, then show him figuring it out and getting past, without taking a few comics?" Honestly, at this point the core (kore heh) of the problem is the slow update schedule. I bet if this was a 5 a week, or even twice a week update schedule, nobody would really mind this at all. But because every update is weeks apart, we begrudge every comic that doesnt focus on the part we like the most. Because even a 3 update side story means it will be a month or two before it gets back to what we want to see. Could you imagine reading girl genius if it had the goblins update rate? Especially with its semi frequent stories that arent connected to girl genius at all, like where they turn it into a radio opera series and such. Good lord, you would spend a year reading some (probably noncanon) story about the time agatha and zeetha were shrunk down and had to fight a frog. Or the girl genius version of cinderella. Steampunkerella? And lets not forget the updates with the cutout characters with clothing options, or just pretty pictures of agatha representing the 4 seasons or whatever. Someone should go count the comics in that story with the jaeger detective and the snail trophy then pretend each page is a two week wait. Then despair.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Disagree. Without them, you'd get complaints about how of course the villain doesn't face crazy deathtraps every other step.


For me they were useful, they showed that Kore is subjected to all the trials of the dungeon, but also that he is an experienced adventurer, and gets through it not just by author fiat, but because he really knows how to handle these things. It also emphasizes that he faces these dangers alone, which puts him above all other dungeon crawlers we have seen, as they needed a group or got themselves in huge trouble (like Kin, who almost game overed twice in this same dungeon and could only get out of sticky situations thanks to other adventurers passing by). 

For me, these things also make Kore feel more grounded in the setting. So they are a net gain, especially compared to the long scene with the angel.

----------


## Typewriter

Stories like this have two types of enemies - traditional and narrative. Against a traditional enemy the abilities of the characters matters. You can predict what is going to happen (to a certain extent). There is some sort of consistent baseline to the world that causes encounters with such enemies to make sense. If enemies are 'gearing up' for a traditional fight it matters and deserves to be shown because the existence of that gear changes the nature of the fight. Against a narrative based enemy I think that showing things like 'gearing up' is a waste of time because it's all just McGuffin anyways. Kore isn't going to win or lose based off of the threat he represents or the gear he finds. He could just have easily shown up and revealed a new ability to trounce the party. He could have laid a trap. Summoned an ally. Encountered his enemies after they were weakened. Trapped them in an area with an anti-magic field. The danger he represents doesn't come from his gear or anything 'knowable' - he's a consistent threat because that is the story that's been decided upon.

Consider the Monster in the Dark in OotS. We don't know what it is or what it can do. But we know it's dangerous. Spending time showing the MitD finding gear would be a waste of time because the threat it represents isn't about what it has - it's purely narrative based.

----------


## Bobb

> Disagree. Without them, you'd get complaints about how of course the villain doesn't face crazy deathtraps every other step.


Well you're still getting complaints so is that really a valid counterargument? 

These past few strips have been boring.

Kore looks dumb and isn't doing anything particularly interesting.




Edit: I think the real problem is Kore has shifted from unstoppable force of nature to cursed insane high level paladin and it honestly feels like its been a waste.

Kore didn't age well through: 

failing to kill forgath 1v1 (I don't care if forgath had a +100 sword)
getting beat by the party in the entrance
getting outsmarted and defeated 1v1 by Kin
getting beat by the party again after they leveled and geared up


It doesn't feel like he has any tricks or great abilities, he's just a brick. And if he gets a random item powerup then its just a consequence of their high magic world and not narratively interesting. And if he pulls out some awesome innate abilities he's had all along then what was he farting around with this entire comic until now?

Basically. He's not what he was narratively and the beginning of the story and it's all for the worse IMO.

----------


## JavaScribe

Where do dungeons come from in this setting? If level 6 is considered the stuff of heroes in this verse, then I doubt it's by wizards. Do the gods create them as a hobby?

----------


## Anteros

> I think showing Kore as he finds new gear is absolutely necessary. It's better to explain that beforehand and use it to foreshadow his return in a more powerful form.
> However, the three pages of "Kore gets past a trap" were unnecessary. It doesn't add anything to the character or the story, and will almost certainly not be relevant for anything that happens in the future. So this could have been better handled in a single page of "Kore emerges from water -> Kore opens door -> Kore finds loot".


Alternatively, you can just scrap the entire plot line where the gross paladin is slowly stripped and we'd be in the same narrative place we are now without wasting 3 months of strips.  Kore looked a lot scarier before anyway. He just looks silly now.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

Ell did a livestream recently, and it looks like we're going back to Minmax and Kin next, so no need to complain about Kore for a bit.

----------


## Lizard Lord

I feel like Kore looks like something from a "trying too hard to be adult and edgy" comic books that surfaced most in the 90s and early 2000s.

----------


## Traab

> Where do dungeons come from in this setting? If level 6 is considered the stuff of heroes in this verse, then I doubt it's by wizards. Do the gods create them as a hobby?


We know the gods (including dms worshipped as gods) can alter things at will. It happened multiple times with minmax and forgath when he prayed to herbert. It would not shock me in the slightest to learn that dungeons are set in place via divine magic. It also wouldnt surprise me to learn that the reason so many dungeons exist is that everybody dies too low level to run them. Unlike the Maze of Many which explicitly resets for infinity and is directly powered by a godly artifact. I get the feeling that the locations of many dungeons are widely known, but not much else because its more of a "Here there be dragons" marking on maps to warn travelers away from them.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Sorry if someone has pointed this out already, but the spear on the right is a close match to Chief's old spear.

----------


## Bobb

Thinking more about the quandary of getting Kore from "ignobly scuffles away from party offscreen" to "OGM its kore!" it came to me that there's more than one way to do a dungeon crawl resupply arc and this is absolutely the wrong way to do it for kore. 

He's being presented the same way as the protagonists. Identifying, engaging and overcoming obstacles. But he doesn't talk and has no one to interact with meaningfully. And I don't want to see the bad guy doing his homework in such intricate detail.

What I would have liked (from the point of kore running away from GAP, which I would have rather never seen) is seeing Kore open a door, huge panorama of impossibly dangerous looking obstacles with at least one big bad monster clearly visible, small panel of Kore making a determined face, Kore opening another door with new gear and loot and you can see the room he's leaving is the giant impossible death room we saw in the panorama.

Boom. Short. Sweet. Reminds us hes competent without showing us him playing with his shoes and hugging the wall like a mere mortal.

----------


## Typewriter

I think they could have shown a different group of adventurers in a treasure room of the dungeon. They briefly discuss some of struggles they reached to get here. But it's all worth it. With these treasure they can return home and accomplish their goals. Then the door opens and you see the silhouette of someone bleeding entering the room. Next time you see Kore he has the weapons/armor/equipment that those adventurers had found.

----------


## Keltest

> I think they could have shown a different group of adventurers in a treasure room of the dungeon. They briefly discuss some of struggles they reached to get here. But it's all worth it. With these treasure they can return home and accomplish their goals. Then the door opens and you see the silhouette of someone bleeding entering the room. Next time you see Kore he has the weapons/armor/equipment that those adventurers had found.


That would imply that Kore had killed them all while naked and missing a giant chunk of his head. If anything, i think that would raise more questions than answers.

----------


## Vinyadan

> That would imply that Kore had killed them all while naked and missing a giant chunk of his head. If anything, i think that would raise more questions than answers.


Maybe they killed themselves after seeing him naked.

----------


## Gez

The real problem with these ideas is that it would result in setting up Kore as a threat only against random NPCs/monsters. He's been humiliated by several defeat against the protagonists, so even if he kills like a hundred great gold wyrms with just a teaspoon, he'll still be no threat against the goblin party. What he needs if you want to re-establish him as a credible threat against the protagonists is to let him win for once. Sure, not a _complete victory_ because you can't just kill all the protagonists (which is what he wants to achieve after all), but just a one-sided fight where the goblins are forced to flee after taking damage but without having been able to inflict damage in return? That'd work.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Maybe they killed themselves after seeing him naked.


And now I am picturing him havong faces... Down there.


Thanks for nothing.

----------


## Bobb

> The real problem with these ideas is that it would result in setting up Kore as a threat only against random NPCs/monsters. He's been humiliated by several defeat against the protagonists, so even if he kills like a hundred great gold wyrms with just a teaspoon, he'll still be no threat against the goblin party. What he needs if you want to re-establish him as a credible threat against the protagonists is to let him win for once. Sure, not a _complete victory_ because you can't just kill all the protagonists (which is what he wants to achieve after all), but just a one-sided fight where the goblins are forced to flee after taking damage but without having been able to inflict damage in return? That'd work.


Agreed. The guy fled offscreen and it was the right call for him to make. He's just not Kore anymore.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Agreed. The guy fled offscreen and it was the right call for him to make. He's just not Kore anymore.


So, you think his character needs to be Korected? I regret nothing.

----------


## Anteros

> The real problem with these ideas is that it would result in setting up Kore as a threat only against random NPCs/monsters. He's been humiliated by several defeat against the protagonists, so even if he kills like a hundred great gold wyrms with just a teaspoon, he'll still be no threat against the goblin party. What he needs if you want to re-establish him as a credible threat against the protagonists is to let him win for once. Sure, not a _complete victory_ because you can't just kill all the protagonists (which is what he wants to achieve after all), but just a one-sided fight where the goblins are forced to flee after taking damage but without having been able to inflict damage in return? That'd work.


I just don't think there's any fixing it.  You can't take what is essentially a movie monster villain and then set them up to struggle and expect the audience to continue to respect them as a threat.  The only way Kore works as a character going forward is if the author actually intends to make them sympathetic and replace them as the antagonist...which is going to be a tough sell.  

More likely it's just bad writing.  Goblins is certainly no stranger to that.

----------


## Quild

> The real problem with these ideas is that it would result in setting up Kore as a threat only against random NPCs/monsters. He's been humiliated by several defeat against the protagonists, so even if he kills like a hundred great gold wyrms with just a teaspoon, he'll still be no threat against the goblin party. What he needs if you want to re-establish him as a credible threat against the protagonists is to let him win for once. Sure, not a _complete victory_ because you can't just kill all the protagonists (which is what he wants to achieve after all), but just a one-sided fight where the goblins are forced to flee after taking damage but without having been able to inflict damage in return? That'd work.


"humiliated by several defeat" sounds a harsh judgement to me.

1) The GAP managed to escape him when he killed Chief and he got that rope in the neck with the trick of the axe. But except from losing some beard and speech, I wouldn't call it a defeat.

2) Forgath managed to stall him on the bridge. Thanks to the OP axe of racism and almost dying in the process. Kore lost some gear, but I guess he still is the one who won that fight. Korgath was only saved by a Deus Ex Machina.

3) Kin trumped him thanks to a dungeon trap. This actually damaged his helm and made him lost his shield, but again a very specific trick. Also she used her indestructible tail against him and he broke an axe.

4) The GAP used the statue to stall and damaged him. Something again very specific.

Honestly I blame the writing on this one. About how there's always a thing for him to lose. And now it has been for nothing?
And I'm usually saying that the writing of Goblins is solid.

----------


## Bobb

> So, you think his character needs to be Korected? I regret nothing.


Completely reborn. The kore is rotten.






> "humiliated by several defeat" sounds a harsh judgement to me.


Sounds about right to me.




> 1) The GAP managed to escape him when he killed Chief and he got that rope in the neck with the trick of the axe. But except from losing some beard and speech, I wouldn't call it a defeat.


The GAP literally had Kore on the ropes. The only reason Kore didn't die in his first encounter is because the GAP splintered itself trying to sacrifice itself to save itself. (mostly Chief. But seriously the way they ran back and forth and Big Ears and, just everything.... they could have won if they had a united front and used their plan as part of an ambush)

IIRC they left Kore on his knees gasping for air.




> 2) Forgath managed to stall him on the bridge. Thanks to the OP axe of racism and almost dying in the process. Kore lost some gear, but I guess he still is the one who won that fight. Korgath was only saved by a Deus Ex Machina.


It is embarrassing to have a fight that fair with a single person 10 levels beneath you. Forgath had a very good melee weapon. Still not something you tell your friends about after the RPG session.




> 3) Kin trumped him thanks to a dungeon trap. This actually damaged his helm and made him lost his shield, but again a very specific trick. Also she used her indestructible tail against him and he broke an axe.


They were in a dungeon. Both combatants knew the mechanics of the dungeon trap. He got owned. Kin had some unique gimmicks that worked. Just like everyone else that fought and beat him/was ridiculously out of his CR but gave him a run for his money. What did Kore do? Not much.




> 4) The GAP used the statue to stall and damaged him. Something again very specific.


Wrong. The GAP used the statue to beat Kore and make him decide to run away from them.

----------


## Traab

> Completely reborn. The kore is rotten.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds about right to me.
> 
> 
> ...


1) They had no weapons that could break through kores armor. He was a single spellcast away from healing and going right back to gob slaughter. Just because Names was so enraged he forgot his sword literally bouncing off of kores head to toe plate armor with no effect doesnt mean they had him on the verge of death. 

2) Forgath was basically fighting with a +9 to his attack rolls, he leveled up and got new spells (somehow) and he still got slaughtered in the end. He was in negative health and plummeting to his death. 

3) Kore didnt know the mechanics of the trap till after kin tricked him and escaped, setting the trap off. 

4) Again, it was literally a one off item that they can never use again, that let them fight kore effectively. They dont have that statue, and they still lack any meaningful method of harming him without praying for another macguffin to save them. Now that he has gear again, they are in serious trouble. Especially since I get the feeling this gear is much better than his off the rack armor and weapons that didnt seem to have any magical effects, just mechanical. This is like in friday the thirteenth when the teenagers find a way to escape briefly. Maybe they knocked him down with a sledgehammer or an axe. maybe they trapped him with a deadfall. It doesnt matter, he isnt dead, he is coming back, and he has already proven he can kill them. So the threat remains.

----------


## Anteros

It's like Friday the 13th if Friday the 13th had a laugh track and were set to yackity sax. Maybe if Jason were chasing the Scooby-Doo gang. 

Kore is a joke now and his relevance in the plot feels completely unearned.  He's either lost or almost lost every encounter he's been in against the protagonists. For all the build up he got? He's pathetic. Giving him a bunch of ridiculous loot for surviving one trap doesn't change the fact that he himself is a pathetic loser that struggles with encounters he should steamroll.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

well what the hell do you want then? Kore to kill off the entire cast in a single fight? Congratulations, we don't have a story now. unless you want to bring in new characters as protagonists. not we need to go through the trudge of setting up how THEY are relevant to the plot and if / how they know  any of the previous cast members. Oh! but those guys will die too won't they? so we'll need to bring in ANOTHER group to get butchered by Kore, only managing to inch the plot forwards three steps before dying... yeah. I'm sure that will work out.


And hang on, excuse me? "Lost or almost lost" every fight?

First fight against GAP: Killed Chief.

Fight against Forgath: nearly killed Forgath and knocked him into the B plot.

Encounter with kin: There was barely a fight here to begin with.

2nd fight with the GAP: Knocked Complains to -6, and Thaco to -3 in ONE HIT EACH


The protagonists have been getting by on the skin of their teeth. The only reason they could even remotely claim victory is through sheer luck and one-off items they'll never gain access too again. Give Kore some credit, he's done some major damage with every encounter, even if he's had to fall back in the most recent one.

----------


## Anteros

> well what the hell do you want then? Kore to kill off the entire cast in a single fight? Congratulations, we don't have a story now. unless you want to bring in new characters as protagonists. not we need to go through the trudge of setting up how THEY are relevant to the plot and if / how they know  any of the previous cast members. Oh! but those guys will die too won't they? so we'll need to bring in ANOTHER group to get butchered by Kore, only managing to inch the plot forwards three steps before dying... yeah. I'm sure that will work out.
> 
> 
> And hang on, excuse me? "Lost or almost lost" every fight?
> 
> First fight against GAP: Killed Chief.
> 
> Fight against Forgath: nearly killed Forgath and knocked him into the B plot.
> 
> ...


Maybe don't have the whole arc where you turn your villain into a joke in the first place?  There's a reason people are saying it isn't salvageable now.  Because it isn't.  It's a poorly written mess.  I'm not trying to offer a solution.  I am an audience member that is saying that this subplot of the story is bad.    

Also.  Kore's record so far.  
Incompetent showings:
1. The group of level 3 goblins left him on his knees gasping for air, and he had to try several times just to cast a spell.  He kills one of them in the process.  Kore has the advantage here, but it's far from impressive...and the sad thing is that it's one of his better showings.
2. A single level 4 cleric absolutely trashes him and his equipment.  If Minmax joins that fight they annihilate him.  
3. Lost an encounter that started in melee range to a single (low level?) caster.  It doesn't matter if she used a trap against him.  If he's as competent as the story wants us to believe then he should be able to deal with it.  
4. Got his ass absolutely kicked by some low level goblins and one golem.  Had to run away like a bitch.  

Competent showings:
5. Beat a bunch of random monsters.  A CR2 or CR3 encounter at best.  
6. Apparently has saw-proof boots.

----------


## Morgaln

Point is, Kore is nowhere near the unstoppable force he was introduced as. It very much feels like the only reason Chief died and Forgath lost the fight was that they were stupid enough to face him alone. On the bridge especially, if all six PCs had fought him, they might very well have won, especially with the magic items Forgath and Minmax are carrying. 
In fact, Kore comes over as incompetent and gullible. In the fight with the GAP, he ignores enemies to run after the axe, even though he could easily pick that up after killing the goblins. In the battle against Forgath, he fails a saving throw against a meager level 2 spell, even though he has a bonus to saving throws as a paladin. In addition, he then cheats to get out of it by casting a spell that doesn't work against that effect and that he wouldn't be able to cast anyway because hold person should make him unable to speak. And then he takes quite a bit of damage from Forgath not from the overpowered axe but from a number of unarmed strikes! Against Kin, he's completely ineffectual because he can't get through her tail. And then he gets trounced by a dungeon gimmick in a dungeon crawl that is designed for low-level adventurers. 
He's at least level 14, as evidenced by the spells he uses; how come he doesn't have any of the numerous overpowered gimmicks that other characters apparently pick up by level 3? What did he do during all his adventuring life?

The way he could have remained a credible threat would have been to have him fight the GAP, Forgath and Minmax all together at the bridge. Have him kill Chief during that battle and wound several of the others severely. Then have Forgath sacrifice himself so the others can flee. That way, the party actually has a reason to fear him coming after them, because he has already defeated them once. Show him being able to wound Kin's tail so we know nothing is impervious to him. Then don't use the golem gimmick to make him flee but as a way to delay him (e. g. by holding him down) to allow the GAP to run away again. If you then show him come across loot, it's not "oh yeah, he needs upgrades to be able to stand up to them" but "oh ****, they barely esaped last time and now he's even more powerful."
In other words, you need to show him as a threat to the full group at full power, not barely beating them in fights against only one or two of them. And he needs to consistently win the engagements and force the party to retreat.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I was honestly willing to accept everything up to the bridge fight. Kore was less impressive than he'd been in previous scenes, but at least to me there was still a sense of threat.

However he should have been sidelined for a bit and allowed to have done scenes restablishing his threat away from the GAP, possibly even having not gone into the Maze. It would have been much more effective if the next we knew of Kore was Forgath returning home to a murdered clan or something else similar.

If the next we saw Kore he had the same equipment but was more powerful or used his spells not effectively then he'd seem threatening. As it is, while I know he could probably mop the floor with the GAP if he still had mundane weapons and armour and there was no massive advantage for the gibbons, it's now going to feel even more like he's only dangerous because of his equipment.

Also I'm going to expect the dungeon to drop an advantage in their laps just before the next fight, like the Angel conversations giving them all stat boosts and making Kickasso a 6th level Cleric or something.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Also I'm going to expect the dungeon to drop an advantage in their laps just before the next fight, like the Angel conversations giving them all stat boosts and making Kickasso a 6th level Cleric or something.


You mean, ontop of the free level up?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> You mean, ontop of the free level up?


The comic moves so slowly I forgot that was a thing. Is there anybody in the party who hasn't got their level yet?

----------


## Vinyadan

As I said earlier, I think that the recent Kore pages made sense, and were fairly interesting. At the same time, it's true that there are problems, but I think that they are bigger than Kore.

For me, the overarching problem is the lack of a poignant, clear objective for the protagonists after Brassmoon. 

The GAP has an objective, and it's reaching the village. You know, the village we have never seen. That village. The return home is a pretty old genre. The Odyssey is the most important example. And the first thing we see in it isn't Ulysses, but the island of Ithaca, where things are bad. Ulysses needs Ithaca, but Ithaca also needs Ulysses. This is a detail that gets easily overlooked, because historically the focus has been on the voyages, but the Odyssey even contains elements that make Ulysses's return even more needed, like when Penelope's trick with the loom gets discovered, effectively starting a countdown. So we know the place and the people the hero needs to return to, and we know that he needs to be fast. 

By comparison, Goblins has never even named a single character who lives in that village.

But we know that the village is in danger, because Kore has the map to get there. So we know that they need to save the village. However, to save the village, they have to face Kore, that isn't at the village, and is already aiming at them. From my point of view, this is a narrative short-circuit. Since the heroes don't know that Kore has the map, they need a reason to fight Kore instead of running away, and so we have the meet-up with Chief's tortured soul.

And how do we get this encounter? By soundly defeating Kore, until he is forced to throw the Goblins a bone while he makes his surrealist silent escape.

But then we have one more objective, and that's going to Hell and leaving the axe there. How? No idea. But this is a much more important problem than Kore or the village. And it was very sudden and unwarranted (I can only assume that it has something to do with Kore, like his souls going to the demon god; also, I'd like to notice that here, too, we don't see people needing to be saved from Hell. What is going on in the cities and farmsteads? Are ships being swallowed by demons? We don't know.)

As for the side-parties, I have no idea of what their objectives are. I don't remember them consciously taking steps towards a specific objective. Forgath's wanted to save the world, and MM might want to save Forgath, kill Kore, get the girl, live happily everafter. But it's all up in the air.

To add to the confusion, all parties have a short-term objective of surviving the hellish place they are in, which tends to drown out out long-term objectives.

So yea, Kore himself has a weird progression, but he is just a symptom.

----------


## Traab

> Maybe don't have the whole arc where you turn your villain into a joke in the first place?  There's a reason people are saying it isn't salvageable now.  Because it isn't.  It's a poorly written mess.  I'm not trying to offer a solution.  I am an audience member that is saying that this subplot of the story is bad.    
> 
> Also.  Kore's record so far.  
> Incompetent showings:
> 1. The group of level 3 goblins left him on his knees gasping for air, and he had to try several times just to cast a spell.  He kills one of them in the process.  Kore has the advantage here, but it's far from impressive...and the sad thing is that it's one of his better showings.
> 2. A single level 4 cleric absolutely trashes him and his equipment.  If Minmax joins that fight they annihilate him.  
> 3. Lost an encounter that started in melee range to a single (low level?) caster.  It doesn't matter if she used a trap against him.  If he's as competent as the story wants us to believe then he should be able to deal with it.  
> 4. Got his ass absolutely kicked by some low level goblins and one golem.  Had to run away like a bitch.  
> 
> ...


Thank goodness they didnt have an arc where he is a joke. Thats just the usual over exaggeration and twisting of facts to fit your personal opinion.

1) They couldnt land a single hit on him, and the best they could do was escape for the 15 second head start they got till he healed himself from the magical axe macguffin lucky shot. 

2)A single level 4 cleric who had every possible advantage stacked in his favor other than level including absolutely stupid bonuses when fighting dwarves and a ring that protects against the obviously nonmagical arrows. He wins and drops forgath to negatives despite forgath managing to level up mid fight AND magically get his new spells to let him continue to fight despite that not being a thing. Kore is more than capable of continuing the fight and seeing how the GAP were utterly USELESS against him, would only have minmax to worry about along with whatever benefit that sword grants him. Wow, grats, he got some minor armor damage. Totally worfed there./eyeroll

3)Im glad you dont think any of the mitigating circumstances count, too bad they do. Having half her body be literally invulnerable to damage (like forgaths beard in the previous fight) actually does make a difference. And surviving long enough to run away doesnt make kore weak. Again, every horror movie character has his targets escape, at least some of them. That doesnt turn him into a clown show. 

4) The golem fight was the first and only time he was overmatched, and even then it was by using a dungeon one off item against him and they cant do it again. And even with that huge boost from the golem, he one shots two characters into negative hit points. He literally needs 4 rounds to obliterate the GAP. Each hit drops a character. And that was before he got this new gear. 

Oh and his boots are plate, like the rest of his armor. We already knew that when old man monk tried to chop into his foot during their first attempt to fight and just like every other attack they made, it did nothing. Oh wait, it put a slice in his boot leather over the plate. Clearly he is a weakling.

----------


## Bobb

@Traab

Fair points, especially on 1). I was imagining the GAP and MM & F using the rope trick to throw Kore off the bridge somehow but there's no way he'd be dead. I think a fair bit of 2) and 4) was you kind of talking past my point (I acknowledged Forgath's weapon) or explaining his failure rather than denying it. (Kore did run away off screen. Which is what I said. Powerful artifacts/deadly traps being in the vicinity seems to be more the default rather than the exception in this world).



@Thread



I was disappointed with Kore.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The comic moves so slowly I forgot that was a thing. Is there anybody in the party who hasn't got their level yet?


Everybody's met the angel, so they ought to be set.

----------


## Cygnia

Odds Kore meets this angel and ganks her?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Odds Kore meets this angel and ganks her?


If the Angel's above like CR 3 no chance.

----------


## Traab

> @Traab
> 
> Fair points, especially on 1). I was imagining the GAP and MM & F using the rope trick to throw Kore off the bridge somehow but there's no way he'd be dead. I think a fair bit of 2) and 4) was you kind of talking past my point (I acknowledged Forgath's weapon) or explaining his failure rather than denying it. (Kore did run away off screen. Which is what I said. Powerful artifacts/deadly traps being in the vicinity seems to be more the default rather than the exception in this world).
> 
> 
> 
> @Thread
> 
> 
> ...


I suppose its theoretically possible they could do the rope trick again, but seeing as its a narrow bridge I dont think they would get the chance to sneak the throw at him again as he would likely be expecting it. And that would be putting all their eggs in one basket as without minmax to hold the gate open and the goblins to solve the puzzle, that was effectively a dead end. As for 2 and 4, ehhh, Im not so sure. I do agree that it likely would have been a closer fight for kore had minmax taken part, after all, that sword of his is utterly broken. But I think we still have the problem of kore doing enough damage to drop a fighter into negatives with one hit. This honestly is an important point that I think doesnt get enough credit. Kore is doing MASSIVE damage with hand axes. He isnt even smiting. But I will admit that the fight would have been hecking dangerous had minmax been able to join in. He did carve half a balors face off with that sword, even though it apparently counts as nonmagical so didnt stick. The first shot would likely be his best one to land a telling blow. But what IS a telling blow when you can literally rip a quarter of his skull off and he can still cast spells and escape?

I honestly get the feeling the fight would go something like this Minmax charges in and uses his oblivious sword to block an attack,  surprising kore, then counters for what seems like big damage. He is shocked when kore takes it then reduces him to negative hp. Forgath heals minmax, kore gets ticked and uses smite on his next attack, reducing minmax to -10 hp and instantly dead. Forgath and kore have a fight thats similar to what actually happened, he rolls off the bridge, the goblins are left trapped with nowhere to go. 4 rounds later, they are all dead, and kore grabs the axe and makes his way to the goblin village wearing his axe of prissan armor to replace what he lost. The players reroll characters and decide to run curse of strahd because running the death house at level 1 then moving to the bonemill afterwards seems like a less deadly campaign than the one they just tried.

----------


## Bobb

> I suppose its theoretically possible they could do the rope trick again, but seeing as its a narrow bridge I dont think they would get the chance to sneak the throw at him again as he would likely be expecting it.


Again? You misunderstand me. In my hypothetical battle order Chief stays with GAP, MM and Forgath join up and they do the rope trick, except this time they hold onto the rope while Forgath and MM are occupying Kore's attention (Forgath already proved he could do it solo) and use the narrowness of the bridge and the rope to push Kore off. 

In my head Thaco held the rope and did a lovely swan dive off the bridge using Kore as an anchor he could trust, acrobating himself to safety as MM and complains deliver the final blow in tandem after a Kung Fu Pand style tandem team effort.





> And that would be putting all their eggs in one basket as without minmax to hold the gate open and the goblins to solve the puzzle, that was effectively a dead end.


Yup. Definitely an all or nothing sane adventurers would probably avoid. I just made the claim it was possible.





> As for 2 and 4, ehhh, Im not so sure. I do agree that it likely would have been a closer fight for kore had minmax taken part, after all, that sword of his is utterly broken. But I think we still have the problem of kore doing enough damage to drop a fighter into negatives with one hit. This honestly is an important point that I think doesnt get enough credit. Kore is doing MASSIVE damage with hand axes. He isnt even smiting. But I will admit that the fight would have been hecking dangerous had minmax been able to join in. He did carve half a balors face off with that sword, even though it apparently counts as nonmagical so didnt stick. The first shot would likely be his best one to land a telling blow. But what IS a telling blow when you can literally rip a quarter of his skull off and he can still cast spells and escape?


Yeah. Kore's a brick. But he's 1/16th finished on the physically disassembling him option. And each number I posted was for a different fight so I think we got wires crossed.




> I honestly get the feeling the fight would go something like this Minmax charges in and uses his oblivious sword to block an attack,  surprising kore, then counters for what seems like big damage. He is shocked when kore takes it then reduces him to negative hp. Forgath heals minmax, kore gets ticked and uses smite on his next attack, reducing minmax to -10 hp and instantly dead. Forgath and kore have a fight thats similar to what actually happened, he rolls off the bridge, the goblins are left trapped with nowhere to go. 4 rounds later, they are all dead, and kore grabs the axe and makes his way to the goblin village wearing his axe of prissan armor to replace what he lost. The players reroll characters and decide to run curse of strahd because running the death house at level 1 then moving to the bonemill afterwards seems like a less deadly campaign than the one they just tried.


It's your prerogative to see that.

----------


## Keltest

I think the people arguing for Kore being killable on the bridge are greatly overestimating the amount of trust the GAP and Minmax/Forgath have in each other at that point. As in, theyre forgetting that until a moment ago they were actively intent on killing each other.

----------


## Dragonus45

> It's like Friday the 13th if Friday the 13th had a laugh track and were set to yackity sax. Maybe if Jason were chasing the Scooby-Doo gang. 
> 
> Kore is a joke now and his relevance in the plot feels completely unearned.  He's either lost or almost lost every encounter he's been in against the protagonists. For all the build up he got? He's pathetic. Giving him a bunch of ridiculous loot for surviving one trap doesn't change the fact that he himself is a pathetic loser that struggles with encounters he should steamroll.


If you say so.

----------


## Anteros

It's clear that a lot of people feel Kore has been worfed by the story. We can argue individual points all day, but ultimately there's no denying that it's an issue for a lot of us. Opinions are always going to vary, and I dont think I've ever seen a thread on this forum where every single person agreed, so it's no surprise there isn't a full consensus.

----------


## Gez

> Odds Kore meets this angel and ganks her?


Quite low, he's much more likely to meet a dwarf angel.

----------


## Bobb

> I think the people arguing for Kore being killable on the bridge are greatly overestimating the amount of trust the GAP and Minmax/Forgath have in each other at that point. As in, theyre forgetting that until a moment ago they were actively intent on killing each other.


I think I'm the only one who said kill and I already walked it back.

Plus it was a mechanical hypothetical rather than a "this is how it should have gone" so nothing forgotten in that respect.




> And hang on, excuse me? "Lost or almost lost" every fight?
> 
> First fight against GAP: Killed Chief.


Killed Chief when Chief played his dumb-ass "I want to die alone" stunt and the GAP did a few laps running around the bridge. Failed to keep GAP from escaping. (Obviously I don't want him to kill all the main characters here and roll curtains but its telling he's only killed in a one-v-one scenario)

In a strategic sense he lost that fight.






> Fight against Forgath: nearly killed Forgath and knocked him into the B plot.


Definitely a win here. 




> Encounter with kin: There was barely a fight here to begin with.


Who won the fight?

Loss.




> 2nd fight with the GAP: Knocked Complains to -6, and Thaco to -3 in ONE HIT EACH


Who ran away? His objective was to kill them. Loss.





> The protagonists have been getting by on the skin of their teeth.


That's how protags be doing it my man.




> The only reason they could even remotely claim victory is through sheer luck and one-off items they'll never gain access too again. Give Kore some credit, he's done some major damage with every encounter, even if he's had to fall back in the most recent one.


The goblins universe is a playground maze of death and terror. Plus they earned those items fair and square, same as tower shield and crossbow bolts.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Killed Chief when Chief played his dumb-ass "I want to die alone" stunt and the GAP did a few laps running around the bridge.


About Chief, it's a pity that his death was handled that badly. Looking back, it's clear that in theory there was a character arc for him, from hiding away during the attack on the warcamp while his men died, to choosing to die for his goblins. His death had even been foreshadowed.

It's also that he wasn't that important, so his death doesn't have much of a consequence. Thac0 could have led instead of him, Complains was promptly made chief, and Chief himself wasn't much of a leader, to the point that he let the GAP go to the Dragon's Maw against his own wishes. Even mechanically, he is substituted by Vorpal as a healbot.

So the only consequence of Chief's death is forcing the GAP to confront Kore (I mean, to rescue his soul). But that's out of the kindness of their hearts: they don't _need_ Chief, which makes this plot point even weaker.

Compare OotS: Roy, the leader, faces Xykon alone, because he's confident he can defeat him. Roy gets killed with ease, because Xykon is an undead monstrosity of immense power. What happens then? Azure City falls, the battle is lost, the Order cannot coordinate and gets split in two groups, and even within these two groups there is massive strife: Haley cannot handle Belkar, who fails a quest when he kills the Oracle, while Celia, who steals away Roy's body, doesn't accept her authority. In the other team, V enters a downwards spiral, and Elan is OK with him leaving forever.

The comparison only works up to a point, because the GAP members all knew each other already and are bound by much more than being a party. So a chief is less important to them (although that's very relative; even a family can suffer when a mediating figure passes away).

----------


## Morgaln

Chief's rather senseless death is one of my major gripes with the story, even more so as it was still in a phase of the comic that I consider overall good (we're long past that now).

For one, I didn't feel like Chief's story arc was over. Yes, he had been cowardly in the battle in the warcamp. Yes, he had started to come around and act differently in Brassmoon. But he hadn't come to terms with his actions fully. Also, there was the matter of why he was chief and how he was blamed for the decline of the clan. Only, he was a baby when his father died and he was made chief. You can't very well blame a baby for the decline of the clan; someone had to be leading in his stead until he grew up. I always hoped that topic would eventually be brought up and resolved.

In addition, Chief was the only one who actually cared about the clan and its traditions. He might not have been a good war leader but he certainly took his role as chief seriously in that regard (see here for an example. I feel like that is an interesting and potentially valuable viewpoint that is missing from the group ever since, especially with Complains as a counterpoint. What also plays into this is the mystery about why Saral Caine wore a version of the clan's crown as his belt. Chief was the only one who even noticed or cared, so it was mainly his subplot. While I don't doubt the reason for that will be dumped on us eventually, it will be robbed of much of its significance, since none of the other goblins will care much and the new chief is even someone who specifically turned away from tradition.

If someone had to die at the bridge, it should have been Thaco. His character arc was over after he defeated GoblinSlayer and faced the trauma of his capture and torture. Ever since, he's just tagged along, occasionally playing the straight man to the whackiness of Vorpal and the emotional outbursts of Complains. Other than that, he's got no narrative purpose, as he doesn't even have the vaguely defined plotlines attached to the other characters in the group.

----------


## Anteros

> Chief's rather senseless death is one of my major gripes with the story, even more so as it was still in a phase of the comic that I consider overall good (we're long past that now).
> 
> For one, I didn't feel like Chief's story arc was over. Yes, he had been cowardly in the battle in the warcamp. Yes, he had started to come around and act differently in Brassmoon. But he hadn't come to terms with his actions fully. Also, there was the matter of why he was chief and how he was blamed for the decline of the clan. Only, he was a baby when his father died and he was made chief. You can't very well blame a baby for the decline of the clan; someone had to be leading in his stead until he grew up. I always hoped that topic would eventually be brought up and resolved.
> 
> In addition, Chief was the only one who actually cared about the clan and its traditions. He might not have been a good war leader but he certainly took his role as chief seriously in that regard (see here for an example. I feel like that is an interesting and potentially valuable viewpoint that is missing from the group ever since, especially with Complains as a counterpoint. What also plays into this is the mystery about why Saral Caine wore a version of the clan's crown as his belt. Chief was the only one who even noticed or cared, so it was mainly his subplot. While I don't doubt the reason for that will be dumped on us eventually, it will be robbed of much of its significance, since none of the other goblins will care much and the new chief is even someone who specifically turned away from tradition.
> 
> If someone had to die at the bridge, it should have been Thaco. His character arc was over after he defeated GoblinSlayer and faced the trauma of his capture and torture. Ever since, he's just tagged along, occasionally playing the straight man to the whackiness of Vorpal and the emotional outbursts of Complains. Other than that, he's got no narrative purpose, as he doesn't even have the vaguely defined plotlines attached to the other characters in the group.


I've actually always felt like Chief would be coming back in some form for partly these reasons.  It doesn't make narrative sense to kill off a major character like him before their arc is done.  Which doesn't mean that Elli won't do it.  Why was he even killed?  To make Kore seem like a bigger threat?  Why do that and then immediately spend the next comics diminishing him as a threat?  Honestly, very little of the main plot since Chief's death has made narrative sense.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

well we know Chief's soul is still inside Kore, and we've already seen the Gargoyle's spirit be freed of Kore by separating that bit of his head. It's possible Chief's story isn't over, maybe he can return and be saved, who knows?

the guy tried to sacrifice himself so that his clan could escape, lets not forget that. If Forgath hadn't shown up when he did, all of the GAP would be dead by now since they went back for him instead of running.




> To make Kore seem like a bigger threat?  Why do that and then immediately spend the next comics diminishing him as a threat?


i don't think the intent behind those comics is to diminish him as a threat. they're encounters to show that he is still a threat, that the characters are still only just barely scraping by, and to show us where he's acquiring his new gear.

You see a guy who keeps getting beaten and broken with every encounter.

I see a guy who always comes back, and can't be defeated, only delayed or avoided.


it's just a matter on how you perceive things.

----------


## Anteros

Ultimately, it's hard to judge before the work is completed.  Maybe we'll look back at it one day and it'll be a great read.  I admit that's a possibility.  I think it would take a very talented author to get there from here though.  Is Elli capable of that?  Maybe.  Some of her stuff is great.  Some of it is pretty bad.  I guess we'll just see.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> and Chief himself wasn't much of a leader,


That was why he was named and made Chief. He was chosen _because_ he wouldn't be a very good leader. Because the alternative would have been the whole tribe going out in a blaze of glory. Glorious, sure, but also very much out.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Ultimately, it's hard to judge before the work is completed.  Maybe we'll look back at it one day and it'll be a great read.  I admit that's a possibility.  I think it would take a very talented author to get there from here though.  Is Elli capable of that?  Maybe.  Some of her stuff is great.  Some of it is pretty bad.  I guess we'll just see.


I do not hold out hope. Goblins is being completed slower than Berserk was.

On the other hand, I suspect that with the characters higher level we'll get less breaks of extreme luck (which seems to be occasionally holding true), and that the writing will get better once they get out of this dungeon.

----------


## Vinyadan

I just noticed that this is the third time that the GAP must rescue a GAP member who is held captive and being tortured: first Vorpal, then alive Chief, and then dead Chief.

Also, Chief is being held together with all of the other souls, so it would be another mass jailbreak like the one in Brassmoon.

About writing quality, I was very surprised comparing the bad, self-indulgent writing of the last years with a money request for surgery that was later deleted from the blog. It was neatly written, and very clear. So, on one hand, the ability to do better is certainly there, but, one the other, it's not been seeping into the comic.




> That was why he was named and made Chief. He was chosen _because_ he wouldn't be a very good leader. Because the alternative would have been the whole tribe going out in a blaze of glory. Glorious, sure, but also very much out.


Unless there was something new in recent strips, Chief was made chief because his dad was chief. Thac0 was more qualified, but a faction would have wanted Chief to be chief anyway, because his dad had been such a great chief, so, to avoid a civil war, Chief was made chief, while Thac0 went in exile. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/07142006 https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/02102006

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> I do not hold out hope. Goblins is being completed slower than Berserk was.


This comment led me to look up Berserk's status, only to discover that its creator died a few months ago.  :Small Frown:

----------


## remetagross

New comic is up!

Darn.

----------


## Fyraltari

I forget, how much does she remember again?

----------


## Morgaln

She shouldn't even know who Vorpal is. The only goblin she really interacted with was Chief. Also, her last information was that Minmax was going to find the goblins to kill Complains, so the assumption that he's now fast friends with them and will mourn their death 24 hours later is rather strange.
Also, she claimed she can see everything her familiar sees, who was present when the goblins fell, so how come she doesn't know about that? I mean, it's not like she had much else to do while trapped in that room..

----------


## Traab

> She shouldn't even know who Vorpal is. The only goblin she really interacted with was Chief. Also, her last information was that Minmax was going to find the goblins to kill Complains, so the assumption that he's now fast friends with them and will mourn their death 24 hours later is rather strange.
> Also, she claimed she can see everything her familiar sees, who was present when the goblins fell, so how come she doesn't know about that? I mean, it's not like she had much else to do while trapped in that room..


She saw he was with the goblins with her familiar so thats why she knows about them. Also because Kore was talking about it when he broke the news about forgath to her. It is strange that she doesnt know about the trap they fell in. Maybe there is a distance limit on seeing through the familiar? Maybe she kind of forget due to the near death experience she just suffered from? Maybe she can only use its senses for so long before the effect wears off? Maybe our beloved author totally forgot about that part?

----------


## Anteros

To be fair, I also totally forgot that scene.  I went back to re-read it and it was almost 3 years ago.  Man, the pacing on this comic sure is great.

----------


## Traab

> To be fair, I also totally forgot that scene.  I went back to re-read it and it was almost 3 years ago.  Man, the pacing on this comic sure is great.


Too be fair its telling like three different stories at once, which really doesnt help the pacing any.

----------


## The Glyphstone

> Too be fair its telling like three different stories at once, which really doesnt help the pacing any.


And that's after Dies Horribly's plot just evaporated. Forgath is still stuck with the cursed adventurers, right?

----------


## Cen

> And that's after Dies Horribly's plot just evaporated. Forgath is still stuck with the cursed adventurers, right?


I checked. Last time we saw Dies Horribly was when Kilk died, right? 
11-23-2012. 
Nine yeasrs ago. 
Wow.

----------


## Typewriter

> I checked. Last time we saw Dies Horribly was when Kilk died, right? 
> 11-23-2012. 
> Nine yeasrs ago. 
> Wow.


That's pretty crazy. I've been reading Goblins since around 2006 or 2007 and in that time frame entire webcomics have been started and completed and I think Goblins has barely progressed.

Honestly I wish I could stop caring but I've always struggled to let go of stories I'm invested in.

----------


## Willie the Duck

who-has-what-knowledge confusion aside, Minmax has some interesting emotional whiplash going on, and I think he's reacting pretty realistically. I don't love the drawing (I'm not sure if I've never seen her in a full-on side view while speaking before, but panel two looks very different) overall, but I like the journey the expression on MM's face goes through.

----------


## Murk

> I've actually always felt like Chief would be coming back in some form for partly these reasons.  It doesn't make narrative sense to kill off a major character like him before their arc is done.


When I first read through the entire archive, there was a Tempts Fate page mistakenly included inbetween the normal comic pages (not sure if that's still the case). It was a page where Tempts goes to hell and fights some demons?
I read that before I knew who it was supposed to be, but he was green-ish and in hell so I assumed it was an interlude about what Chief was doing in the afterlife. I was confused for a long time why we had _one_ page of Chief fighting demons and nothing else. 

Chief just being dead seems like a waste, in comparison. I'm pretty sure the author said somewhere she considered chief's arc to be done, though.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

not everyone GETS a full story arc though. sometimes fate decides to cut your string before you can overcome your obstacles, dot all your I's and cross all your T's. 

Chief's death shows us that this world isn't pulling it's punches. Any one of the protagonists could die at any time. Big Ears' goal is to get the axe to hell. He could still die in the next page having never done that, and the story would need to instead be driven by other characters dealing with the consequences of that.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Chief's death still didn't feel earned to me. I'm all for a shocking death, but by the time it actually happened I wasn't surprised. What little impact it did have for me went out the window when Chief became a MacGuffin.

Plus as had been said, it removed a point of view from the party. There's nobody who truly cares about tradition anymore, and while we have good evidence to believe that the goblin god doesn't care the traditions still hold valuable storytelling potential.

Complains is in an interesting situation. Thanks to Chief and Angel McParentface he's now a Chief, but he's a Chief who tradition dictates cannot be remembered. This could easily cause conflict when the GAP returns to their clan, but I'm not sure any of the characters would even bring it up.

----------


## Anteros

> Too be fair its telling like three different stories at once, which really doesnt help the pacing any.


Just another reason that adding a subplot where we follow Kore around as he loots the dungeon is terrible.

I wonder if Elli is still using the "I'm just such a hard worker and perfectionist that I can only draw one page of art a month" excuse, or if she's finally admitted to herself that she's lazy.  Regardless, I know it's a free comic and we have no right to complain, but the speed is objectively glacial.  If she pumped out comics as fast as she does posts asking for money she could live off her patron alone.

----------


## Androgeus

> I wonder if Elli is still using the "I'm just such a hard worker and perfectionist that I can only draw one page of art a month" excuse, or if she's finally admitted to herself that she's lazy.


Procrastinating can stem from perfectionism.

----------


## Vinyadan

> She shouldn't even know who Vorpal is. The only goblin she really interacted with was Chief. Also, her last information was that Minmax was going to find the goblins to kill Complains, so the assumption that he's now fast friends with them and will mourn their death 24 hours later is rather strange.
> Also, she claimed she can see everything her familiar sees, who was present when the goblins fell, so how come she doesn't know about that? I mean, it's not like she had much else to do while trapped in that room..


I consider naming Vorpal derpy writing meant to remind us that MM really was totes friends with his newfound Goblin soulmate, and his presumed death is affecting him.

Derpy for two reasons -- their sudden friendship felt arbitrary (AND NOW THEY'RE FRIENDS!) and it's the sort of thing one would tell to himself (with a different expression), because I don't think MM has any reason to believe Kin actually knew Vorpal by name. As far as I remember, she just mentioned once that she once met heroic goblins. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/05172010 If the purpose had been to inform her, it would have made more sense to tell her Forgath was dead.

But I liked this page otherwise. Although I would have expected some disbelief in MM's face in panel 2, as in, happiness, but also "_good boy?_ What the heck is going on?"

----------


## Kish

> I consider naming Vorpal derpy writing meant to remind us that MM really was totes friends with his newfound Goblin soulmate, and his presumed death is affecting him.
> 
> Derpy for two reasons -- their sudden friendship felt arbitrary (AND NOW THEY'RE FRIENDS!) and it's the sort of thing one would tell to himself (with a different expression), because I don't think MM has any reason to believe Kin actually knew Vorpal by name. [...]Although I would have expected some disbelief in MM's face in panel 2, as in, happiness, but also "_good boy?_ What the heck is going on?"


Both these criticisms strike me as based on fundamentally misunderstanding Minmax.

That is: He's really dumb. And instinctively selfish. "Vorpal is dead" doesn't, in his view, matter _to him_--it matters and that's the end of the sentence, which everyone can be assumed to automatically understand. Kin addressing him like he's a dog doesn't bother him the way it would most people, because the gap between his intellect and that of a bright dog isn't all that big.

----------


## Ibrinar

Also tone of voice exists even if it is not conveyed by the comic, saying "X is dead" with a sad voice is fairly self explanatory as "I am sad about X having died" even if you have no idea who that is. Though yeah it did make me think about how little she knows about the situation.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Both these criticisms strike me as based on fundamentally misunderstanding Minmax.
> 
> That is: He's really dumb. And instinctively selfish. "Vorpal is dead" doesn't, in his view, matter _to him_--it matters and that's the end of the sentence, which everyone can be assumed to automatically understand. Kin addressing him like he's a dog doesn't bother him the way it would most people, because the gap between his intellect and that of a bright dog isn't all that big.


It sounds about right, with MM being too dumb to understand the difference in registers when talking to a man or a dog, and not smart enough to understand that other people have different, uhm, "knowledge pools". To tell the truth, MM never convinced me much from this point of view, maybe because, when he was introduced, he was inventive, boisterous instead of idiotic, and could be quite the critic of other characters. Compare the MM in the episode starting here to the one we have now. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/09302005

When he shows up in Brassmoon, I think, the transformation has already happened.

----------


## Traab

> It sounds about right, with MM being too dumb to understand the difference in registers when talking to a man or a dog, and not smart enough to understand that other people have different, uhm, "knowledge pools". To tell the truth, MM never convinced me much from this point of view, maybe because, when he was introduced, he was inventive, boisterous instead of idiotic, and could be quite the critic of other characters. Compare the MM in the episode starting here to the one we have now. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/09302005
> 
> When he shows up in Brassmoon, I think, the transformation has already happened.


He is a total idiot in those early comics. His great inventive plan for the goblin camp was for him to slaughter the goblins himself, become the king of everything and watch two sexy women make out. It makes sense his personality has changed considering the crazy stuff he has been through, but he is still quite stupid. Also, those early comics get confusing because at the time the author was still playing with the "This is a game of D&D with actual players controlling characters" aspect so there was quite a bit of ooc action and talking.

----------


## Morgaln

Minmax isn't all that dumb. In fact, he's demonstrated that he can be quite clever and solve problems through lateral thinking.
That's certainly much brighter than a dog. Admittedly, it is somewhat incongruous with his behavior in other situations. The best in-universe explanation I can come up with for that is that he is actually fairly bright, but in most cases is too lazy to apply his brains.

----------


## Traab

> Minmax isn't all that dumb. In fact, he's demonstrated that he can be quite clever and solve problems through lateral thinking.
> That's certainly much brighter than a dog. Admittedly, it is somewhat incongruous with his behavior in other situations. The best in-universe explanation I can come up with for that is that he is actually fairly bright, but in most cases is too lazy to apply his brains.


He is good at combat. He traded literally everything he could to get better at fighting, so being good at thinking in a fight scenario makes sense. I mean, the dude traded his ability to whistle for a +1 iirc. Also I dont think he can even dress himself. Remember dealing with the entrance to the maze of many? He spent like 5 rounds staring at the glowing sword while kin rhapsodized over his focus only for his final decision being, "Im gonna pee on it." And "penis go boom" was the only way kin could make him understand why that was a bad idea. Minmax is not smart. Yes he isnt as dumb as a dog, but thats not a high bar to clear.

----------


## Vinyadan

> He is a total idiot in those early comics. His great inventive plan for the goblin camp was for him to slaughter the goblins himself, become the king of everything and watch two sexy women make out. It makes sense his personality has changed considering the crazy stuff he has been through, but he is still quite stupid. Also, those early comics get confusing because at the time the author was still playing with the "This is a game of D&D with actual players controlling characters" aspect so there was quite a bit of ooc action and talking.


The "plan" was actually a joke to screw around with Forgath, as MM reveals in the following page; that's why I linked that episode, it shows him being smart enough to understand how to get people riled up. It's kinda the opposite of the current situation, where there apparently is an uncrossable chasm that stops him from understanding other people's positions.

I have wondered about the player vs MM thing, but that's still how the character was when he was introduced, and for quite a while after that.

----------


## Keltest

Minmax is "RPG" stupid. Players are notoriously bad at simulating somebody of vastly different intelligence from themselves, and Minmax is a parody of that (or, alternatively, the result of it applied to writing). He's the kind of character that one minute will be drinking from a puddle of slime on the ground, and the next creating a complex battle plan because the player put all those points into combat, so he sure isnt going to squander them all by being an idiot who gets himself killed swording at a wall while archers are shooting at him.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Minmax is the world's biggest idiot, but he wasn't quite that dumb. He's missing a lot of knowledge, including at least some basic knowledge of how to interact with others, but they doesn't mean he's completely lacking in Ability to think 

I think the better comparison than 'dog' might be 'young child sticking a fork in the power socket to see what happens'.

----------


## Kish

> The "plan" was actually a joke to screw around with Forgath, as MM reveals in the following page; that's why I linked that episode, it shows him being smart enough to understand how to get people riled up.


And then he nearly gets eaten by a tentacle monster because he thought that getting Forgath riled up was a good way to pass the time before their attack on the goblins. So yeah.

----------


## Vinyadan

> And then he nearly gets eaten by a tentacle monster because he thought that getting Forgath riled up was a good way to pass the time before their attack on the goblins. So yeah.


I don't really know what you mean exactly, but it was Forgath who threw him in the pond.

----------


## Lizard Lord

> I don't really know what you mean exactly, but it was Forgath who threw him in the pond.


Because Minmax got him riled up.

----------


## Bobb

New comic.

You know what's really dumb and probably plot relevant before the end of this comic? 

Kin has covered up the string of her obedience collar but not the collar itself.

----------


## Fyraltari

> New comic.


Doesn't Minmax's first sentence lack a second half?




> You know what's really dumb and probably plot relevant before the end of this comic? 
> 
> Kin has covered up the string of her obedience collar but not the collar itself.


Come again?

----------


## Lord Torath

> Doesn't Minmax's first sentence lack a second half?


"Huh?  Oh."  No, I think those are both complete sentences.

Moving on to the third: "Those are hellstrands this demon deity called The Sacred, but ..."

Yeah, he's missing some bits in there.  "Those are hellstrands _from_ this demon..." or something.

----------


## Gez

The interesting thing is Kin's phrasing: "_your_ world is going to end", not "_our_ world" or "_the_ world".

----------


## Vinyadan

> The interesting thing is Kin's phrasing: "_your_ world is going to end", not "_our_ world" or "_the_ world".


Good point... at first I thought it was because she might have spent conscious years in the Maze and isn't yet back to consider this world her home. Then I thought that maybe it's to underscore MM's lack of self-consciousness. But now I am wondering if she used the Maze to take off to a better world than the Goblins Realm, and she's only back because she really needed to talk to MM. Although she did say that evil was winning on a multiverse scale, so who knows, maybe there simply isn't a place better than this Realm.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

Minmax is being a bit Verbose for Minmax. At least i think he is, could probably trim that dialogue down a little bit.

"Huh? Oh. Those are hellstrands. There's this Demon-deity guy that's trapped in a prison axe, but the axe broke, and now he's turning our world into a layer of hell so he can escape." would have been my first draft.

Feel like the whole "that's not his real name" bit is more for the audience then Kin, that could probably be left out, since anyone who read the comic up to this point would already know this. and the "torture every living soul" thing seems a bit like padding. context alone probably could have established that. Like how you if you're told an animal is being kept in a zoo, you probably don't need to be told that they're feeding it regularly, that's kind of implied.


beyond that, more or less okay. kind of surprised Minmax forgot about not-walter, but meh.

----------


## The Glyphstone

He traded his ability to remember useful NPCs for a +1 damage bonus.

----------


## Vinyadan

It's particularly remarkable, because Grinnorarcen is how he learned about demonic true names the first time. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/12042005/

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> He traded his ability to remember useful NPCs for a +1 damage bonus.


a'ight, that's clever. Thumbs up.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Traab

I think this was an attempt to play with his character a bit. The dumb guy who randomly will rattle off a complicated set of sentences to explain, say, the entire plot of the story, then goes right back to 3 int barely avoiding drooling on himself behavior. I dont know what its called but im sure its a trope as ive seen it done before. Or maybe minmax has just been fighting so many demons they are starting to blur in his grief addled mind so he honestly did forget about not walter specifically being a demons whose name they know briefly.

----------


## Anteros

It doesn't really make sense.  Literally the only reason he knows anything about true names is from Not-Walter.  He *can't* have forgotten him.  He just referenced him a sentence ago.  I know "hurr-durr Minmax is dumb" but this is just nonsensical.

----------


## Fyraltari

> It doesn't really make sense.  Literally the only reason he knows anything about true names is from Not-Walter.  He *can't* have forgotten him.  He just referenced him a sentence ago.  I know "hurr-durr Minmax is dumb" but this is just nonsensical.


Do you always remember the context in which you've learned things? Because I don't.

----------


## Anteros

> Do you always remember the context in which you've learned things? Because I don't.


Mostly?  Also, for Minmax it was *yesterday*

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Mostly?  Also, for Minmax it was *yesterday*


to be fair, it's been a long day.


and again feel like this whole exchange is more aimed at the audience to remind us what's happening, it has been a few comics (and a long time irl) since all that happened.

----------


## Vinyadan

In this case, I wonder if "I forgot all" means "I did not think of Grinnorarcen lately, and of how he relates to the current situation". Not that it would have mattered for MM, since the name was whispered to Kin, and he probably couldn't hear it when she used it. 

Other options are a parody of players forgetting stuff from previous quests/sessions, or MM's tunnel-vision brain that remembers mechanical advantages but not most other things.

By the way, that against MM38 and Grinnorarcen was a very good-looking fight. It was just people hitting each other and thinking up clever countermeasures, instead of torture, gore, pain, and anguish. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/02212012

----------


## Typewriter

Kore: Origins

----------


## Kish

> By the way, that against MM38 and Grinnorarcen was a very good-looking fight. It was just people hitting each other and thinking up clever countermeasures, instead of torture, gore, pain, and anguish. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/02212012


This is counting Kin's rape flashback as happening _after_ the fight, I'm guessing.

(On an unrelated note, declaring the "I forgot all about not-Walter!" line "just nonsensical" is the biggest stretch I've seen here since the last really big stretch I've seen here.)

----------


## Vinyadan

> This is counting Kin's rape flashback as happening _after_ the fight, I'm guessing.


Well, yes. But even that is followed by MM saving Kin, and by Kin overcoming her horror towards physical contact.

Actually, I think that's GS's final defeat: first against Thac0 as the city's hero, then against MM and Forgath as a villain, and then in Kin's mind as the trees that pin her like he did are smashed and she gets over some of the damage he did to her as her rapist.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

New comic is out!


Who's cutting onions? :Small Frown:

----------


## Typewriter

*Spoiler: New Comic Spoilers*
Show

I've got to say that I enjoy moments like this in the comic - it's one of the few things that causes me to keep reading. But I think if the payoff for this is just to kill one or both of these characters in gruesome ways to build tension/dramatic effect that it would probably be the thing that made me finally remove it from my bookmarks list. I hate that that's where my expectation sort of goes to at this point but I'd be lying if I said that wasn't what my first thought was upon reading it.

----------


## Kish

I don't think you have anything to worry about there.

Count the number of protagonists who have actually _died_, not just been mutilated in grotesque ways. I count...one. Chief.

----------


## Keltest

> I don't think you have anything to worry about there.
> 
> Count the number of protagonists who have actually _died_, not just been mutilated in grotesque ways. I count...one. Chief.


Two. Fogarth died, and while its like 99.9% likely that he did genuinely get better without anything more complicated than that, he hasnt actually had any screen time to confirm that yet.

Also, Minmax has that prophecy thing hovering in the background involving "the serpent becoming his prey", whoever "his" means in this case, so i think theres SOMETHING that has a high chance of ending tragically in the near future. Well, comic time near.

----------


## BaronOfHell

> *Spoiler: New Comic Spoilers*
> Show
> 
> I've got to say that I enjoy moments like this in the comic - it's one of the few things that causes me to keep reading. But I think if the payoff for this is just to kill one or both of these characters in gruesome ways to build tension/dramatic effect that it would probably be the thing that made me finally remove it from my bookmarks list. I hate that that's where my expectation sort of goes to at this point but I'd be lying if I said that wasn't what my first thought was upon reading it.


Isn't it a good thing to believe the characters you're invested enough in, that you'd be willing to quit their universe, is in a real enough risk that you'd even make such a consideration, and on the same time be able to enjoy their good moments?

----------


## Gez

> I don't think you have anything to worry about there.
> 
> Count the number of protagonists who have actually _died_, not just been mutilated in grotesque ways. I count...one. Chief.


Didn't Klik die as well?

----------


## Typewriter

> Isn't it a good thing to believe the characters you're invested enough in, that you'd be willing to quit their universe, is in a real enough risk that you'd even make such a consideration, and on the same time be able to enjoy their good moments?


I get what you're saying but at a certain point I feel like there is no longer a point to continuing to invest myself in the characters. The comic has always sort of towed the line between a legitimate narrative and torture porn - if it decides to dunk this entire arc for 'emotional impact' I think I'd just be done - unable to find reason to continue caring.

----------


## Anteros

We've been chasing a prophecy about "love fueling hate" and "the serpent becoming prey" all comic.  Plus we know something *bad* is in store for Minmax from Fumble's.  It's not a matter of if they get fridged.  It's a matter of when.

Also, this wasn't much emotional payoff for a supposedly emotional plotline that's been building for 8 years.  Maybe the next update will add to it, but "wall of text at each other and it's better now" is not great.

----------


## remetagross

> Didn't Klik die as well?


Oh man. He did. That was heartwrenching.

----------


## Vinyadan

Looking back at prophecies:

https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/12082009/

And Forgath's real prophecy:

https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/12142005

Young and Beautiful's original wording and the wall's reaction make me wonder if Forgath needs to die again. She didn't say a dwarf would kill him, and he died after a battle, not in one. 

So, what could this mean?
*Spoiler*
Show

Had MM not met the Goblins, he would have not caused the battle in the Opposites room, and the Axe would not have broken. Now all three teams are ultimately converging to the axe to solve the hellscape problem. Forgath is unrecognisable, and Idle and Bowst don't know Kin. Bowst could attack Kin once he sees her with the axe, and MM reacts attacking everyone in Bowst's party.

Ward the Talking Sword-Click also might love Idle. Had Forgath not met the GAP again, he wouldn't have ended up in Idle's party. I'm not sure of what that has to do with a snake, but the friend turning to enemy could be Ward.

----------


## Lurkmoar

> I get what you're saying but at a certain point I feel like there is no longer a point to continuing to invest myself in the characters. The comic has always sort of towed the line between a legitimate narrative and torture porn - if it decides to dunk this entire arc for 'emotional impact' I think I'd just be done - unable to find reason to continue caring.


Too bleak, stopped caring.

I'm way past caring. I'm just morbidly curious and determined to see it though. It only costs about a minute to see if there's an update for me.

Initially, wasn't the pitch about the comic that non-human creatures were every bit as sapient and sentient as traditional player character races? What's the story about now? How utter monstrous and selfish good can be, and how evil will prevail because of that?  I'm willing to see if there's a good payoff, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

----------


## Traab

> Looking back at prophecies:
> 
> https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/12082009/
> 
> And Forgath's real prophecy:
> 
> https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/12142005
> 
> Young and Beautiful's original wording and the wall's reaction make me wonder if Forgath needs to die again. She didn't say a dwarf would kill him, and he died after a battle, not in one. 
> ...


Didnt forgath die to poison given to him by that character with the bunny ears who has to die once per day? And isnt she a dwarf? I thought there was something there like she didnt want to say because their clans are enemies or some such thing.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Didnt forgath die to poison given to him by that character with the bunny ears who has to die once per day? And isnt she a dwarf? I thought there was something there like she didnt want to say because their clans are enemies or some such thing.


Yes, but that wasn't a great battle.

----------


## Typewriter

> Too bleak, stopped caring.
> 
> I'm way past caring. I'm just morbidly curious and determined to see it though. It only costs about a minute to see if there's an update for me.
> 
> Initially, wasn't the pitch about the comic that non-human creatures were every bit as sapient and sentient as traditional player character races? What's the story about now? How utter monstrous and selfish good can be, and how evil will prevail because of that?  I'm willing to see if there's a good payoff, but I'm not going to hold my breath.


I care about the characters but hate the frequency of pointless misery. Plus I'm still waiting for some sort of payoff for any of it too - I mean at this point in time we've got three different relevant factions and an entire other faction that has never bumped into any of the core story. All of that could start to reconvene into something that has a point. Maybe.




> Didnt forgath die to poison given to him by that character with the bunny ears who has to die once per day? And isnt she a dwarf? I thought there was something there like she didnt want to say because their clans are enemies or some such thing.


You are correct.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Didnt forgath die to poison given to him by that  character with the bunny ears who has to die once per day? And isnt she a  dwarf? I thought there was something there like she didnt want to say  because their clans are enemies or some such thing.


I might be reading too much into it, but:

Young and Beautiful said: "I know that you will not die this day because I have seen your death. You will die in a great battle with another dwarf. When the serpent becomes your prey, friends will become enemies and love will fuel hate." https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/12142005

Then the wall said: "If you ever find those goblins, it's going to end badly for both of you. When the serpent becomes your prey, friends will become enemies and love will fuel hate." https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/12082009

I think that both of these prophecies refer to the same event, the one foreshadowed by the cryptic verses and which has yet to unfold. 

Then Forgath alters the wording of what Young and Beautiful said: "Hey, that's what that goblin hag said to me. She also said that a dwarf would kill me." (that's not what Young and Beautiful said). Which prompts the wall to chime in with a prophecy: "Oh yeah, that's totally going to happen. And not a good death either. Lots of screaming." https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/12152009 And I think that here the Wall was prompted to answer truthfully, emitting a new, separate prophecy, referring to the death we have seen: Idle the Dwarf poisoned Forgath, who died a bad death with screaming, fear, and so on. But Young and Beautiful said that Forgath would die in a great battle (which didn't happen, he died because of a battle but not in it), and that "with another dwarf" could be understood in a lot of ways (against a dwarf? together with a dwarf?)

Anyway, there certainly is a tragic fate now hanging over MM and Forgath, because they found the Goblins, and it will end badly for both of them. (If I am wrong in how I read the prophecies, then Forgath might be out of the hot water the way Dies Horribly is; he has already met a ugly end. But MM is most likely still there; the worst that happened to him is separation from Forgath.)





> I care about the characters but hate the frequency of pointless misery. Plus I'm still waiting for some sort of payoff for any of it too - I mean at this point in time we've got three different relevant factions and an entire other faction that has never bumped into any of the core story. All of that could start to reconvene into something that has a point. Maybe.


Actually, this is the sort of universal emergency that could cause all threads to converge.

----------


## Kish

> Didn't Klik die as well?


Sure did! But I'm blinking at the idea that anyone thought Dies-Horribly's plot device, who had literally no relationships with anyone else and was known even to Dies-Horribly only by what is now established to be the species name, was a protagonist. Klik's death had less emotional resonance in my eyes than Hawl's, and he died to establish that the villain was scary and evil.

...actually, depending on how big a role the corrupted klik has later, quite possibly the exact same is true of Klik...



> Anyway, there certainly is a tragic fate now hanging over MM and Forgath, because they found the Goblins, and it will end badly for both of them.


I truly wish my reading was the same as yours there.

----------


## Kornaki

I have to say, I am 100% on team forgath dies again.


I also honestly forgot he died the first time, which says something about the pacing of the comic.

----------


## Traab

The prophecy only says that there will be another dwarf, not that he will be killed by one. There was a great battle, he took a lethal wound in it, and took poison to avoid being turned into an abomination. he died with lots of screaming. I think that fulfills every part of the prophecy that pertains to forgaths death. Now the part with minmax is still a mystery. No telling how that will go. Just that it wont be good. Which is the biggest ah duh moment possible considering the way this comic works.

----------


## Kornaki

I agree, if that was the whole prophecy then I wouldn't feel cheated, but if he did die again and it was set up from the start that those were descriptions of different events, I would find that to be one of the better pieces of prophecy writing.

----------


## Anteros

> The prophecy only says that there will be another dwarf, not that he will be killed by one. There was a great battle, he took a lethal wound in it, and took poison to avoid being turned into an abomination. he died with lots of screaming. I think that fulfills every part of the prophecy that pertains to forgaths death. Now the part with minmax is still a mystery. No telling how that will go. Just that it wont be good. Which is the biggest ah duh moment possible considering the way this comic works.


The exact phrasing is you "you will die in a great battle with another dwarf" not "you will be poisoned by another dwarf afterward battle because you got infected".  I don't really see how it fulfills the "in battle" part of the prophecy at all.  My suspicion is that this scene exists to add ambiguity to the prophecy so people will be more surprised when it really happens.

----------


## Vinyadan

> I truly wish my reading was the same as yours there.


Something more catastrophic? Or authorial forgetfulness?  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Traab

> The exact phrasing is you "you will die in a great battle with another dwarf" not "you will be poisoned by another dwarf afterward battle because you got infected".  I don't really see how it fulfills the "in battle" part of the prophecy at all.  My suspicion is that this scene exists to add ambiguity to the prophecy so people will be more surprised when it really happens.


He was in a great battle with another dwarf fighting the abomination. He died with lots of screaming because he got wounded by it before they won. I think its a bit of semantics to claim it doesnt count because he died 10 minutes after the fight was over rather than mid fight. I wish i could argue with your "what a tweest!" stance though, its absolutely the sort of thing she would do. Also, does forgath even COUNT as a dwarf now? He is sort of a humanoid omniklik now. At least with whats her face she is just cursed and can be turned back

----------


## Anteros

> He was in a great battle with another dwarf fighting the abomination. He died with lots of screaming because he got wounded by it before they won. I think its a bit of semantics to claim it doesnt count because he died 10 minutes after the fight was over rather than mid fight. I wish i could argue with your "what a tweest!" stance though, its absolutely the sort of thing she would do. Also, does forgath even COUNT as a dwarf now? He is sort of a humanoid omniklik now. At least with whats her face she is just cursed and can be turned back


It's prophecy.  Semantics are important.

----------


## Vinyadan

Yes, it's clearly semantics. Right now, I think that it would be normal for Goblins writing if Forgath's death had been done and it's over, but, as it's written, I think it should be two different prophecies.

 However, it's probably like when we wondered if the angel was staring at Ears not because of the preposterous claim that she was his mum, but instead because she had noticed the hell strings growing around him. It would have been some refined writing. It also didn't happen.

Anyway, looking at Vorpal's prophecies...

https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-21

A few have already come true. "The levels are gained outside of time" alludes to the angel, I guess. "The dwarf cries no more" is Forgath's death. Looking at those yet to come true, "The hammer awaits" sounds like the hammer of Prissan.

----------


## Kish

> Something more catastrophic? Or authorial forgetfulness?


I wish there was a tragic fate hanging over Minmax and Forgath, for I despise both characters. I like redemption stories; I don't like "I assume my audience sympathizes with the genocidal mass murderer because I assume they've all played similar characters in D&D, so handwaving him getting friendly with the protagonists doesn't require having him acknowledge that his mass murders were in fact doing something wrong" stories.

On an unrelated note, it occurs to me that, in a comic with a character named Bowst, "BOWSTRINGSBREAK" cannot be distinguished between "Bowstrings Break" and "Bowst Rings Break."

----------


## Vinyadan

> I wish there was a tragic fate hanging over Minmax and Forgath, for I despise both characters. I like redemption stories; I don't like "I assume my audience sympathizes with the genocidal mass murderer because I assume they've all played similar characters in D&D, so handwaving him getting friendly with the protagonists doesn't require having him acknowledge that his mass murders were in fact doing something wrong" stories.


I can see that. Now that I think about it, the recurrent axe/acts of racism jokes miss this point. Even after meeting Kin, MM is still oblivious to what he has done.

https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/10032013

----------


## Gez

> I wish there was a tragic fate hanging over Minmax and Forgath, for I despise both characters. I like redemption stories; I don't like "I assume my audience sympathizes with the genocidal mass murderer because I assume they've all played similar characters in D&D, so handwaving him getting friendly with the protagonists doesn't require having him acknowledge that his mass murders were in fact doing something wrong" stories.


That's true of Minmax, less of Forgath: https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/12302005

----------


## The Glyphstone

I had completely forgotten that Complains is Thaco's son.

----------


## Kish

> That's true of Minmax, less of Forgath: https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/12302005


Oh, true. I should probably hold less of a grudge against Forgath.

----------


## Anteros

A bit harsh considering the Goblins had set up a war camp and were perfectly willing to hunt and kill adventurers in their area.  Even Thaco says you can't really blame them.  The very first strip we ever see is them gleefully hunting down and killing a *paladin.*  They're specifically there to trick people into attacking them.  Good job I guess?  They're not the guiltless innocents you're making them out to be.  

Events from Minmax and Forgath's view:  
1: They hear goblins have set up a war camp and are terrorizing an area.  
2: They attack the camp and find a prophecy that the goblins are going to destroy the world.  
3: They decide the threat to the world is great enough that they have to hunt the goblins down.  

Without some serious psychic powers, they had no way to know that this was the *one* tribe of goblins in the entire setting not actively engaged in a plan to kill all non-goblin life.  I know the point of the story was originally that goblins are people too, and adventurers are wrong for judging them based on appearance, but that's not the story that Elli actually told.

----------


## Vinyadan

Eh... first, I don't remember the page where they hear that our goblins are terrorizing passers by (which doesn't mean that there isn't such a page, just that I can't remember or find it). Second, MM concludes that the Goblins wanted to end the world on the basis of his racist assumptions concerning goblins. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/03122006 Goblins are a bad lot altogether; their intentions must be assumed to be evil. Compare later with Kin. MM's racism is still pretty clear in his early interactions with Kin. Kin does something? She's trying to summon a demon.  Is that so far from accusing random people of trying to end the world  by summoning the white terror? The logic is really the same. Monsters  are bad, all of them, they do bad, unknown things.

Also, you should be fighting people, not learning about them https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/02242006/ 

Of course, MM is being whiny and self-serving at the warcamp: Forgath shouldn't waste time learning about the goblins, because he should be looking for a weapon for MM. Forgath shouldn't make friends with the goblins, because they didn't cease hostilities towards MM, who, unlike Forgath, never stopped attacking them. What Forgath has learned during the fight and after he stopped breaking Goblins skulls is irrelevant, because MM wants his high: to be a hero who saved the world.

Vorpal arguably started out in the same condition, seeing the world's inhabitants as falling in two groups, XP and allies. However, Vorpal grew out of it because he felt bad about it and started out on a (quixotic) quest to make things right. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/04182006

The thing is, even after he falls in love with Kin, MM still believes not to have committed any acts of racism*, and he's still hounding the goblins (I personally didn't find his later association with the goblins to make much sense).

*yes, one could go like Redcloak (racist vs speciesist), but the comic doesn't seem to have taken that direction.

----------


## Morgaln

Minmax's association with the goblins , especially with Vorpal, makes even less sense if you consider the timeline involved. 
Even if we assume every room in the current dungeon took an hour and add an eight hour rest early on, it has been less than a day since the battle on the bridge. You really don't become fast friends in that time, especially if one of you previously murdered two dozen people you've known all your life.

----------


## Kish

> Eh... first, I don't remember the page where they hear that our goblins are terrorizing passers by (which doesn't mean that there isn't such a page, just that I can't remember or find it).


There isn't one; Gez just linked the opposite, where Forgath asks Minmax for anything of the sort and Minmax replies to the whole idea that anything like that is applicable with "What the hell has gotten into you?"

----------


## Vinyadan

> Minmax's association with the goblins , especially with Vorpal, makes even less sense if you consider the timeline involved. 
> Even if we assume every room in the current dungeon took an hour and add an eight hour rest early on, it has been less than a day since the battle on the bridge. You really don't become fast friends in that time, especially if one of you previously murdered two dozen people you've known all your life.


About the GAP not killing MM, there is something which I would have liked to see. It's something I have noticed after a few years since that scene first appeared. Back at the beginning, Chief said that MM and Forgath were  deserving of punishment. Well, death sounds like the right one, in a  fantasy medieval setting. However, Thac0 stops Complains from killing MM. 

Then it came up to me that Thac0 also refused to kill Goblinslayer. 

Wouldn't it be cool, if the two things had been related? What if Thac0 just doesn't believe in killing as the answer? He's old, he's a monk, he's been in a voluntary exile. He has what it takes to have his own philosophy, detached from or going beyond the laws of the clan. A refusal of the death penalty, fundamentally, but also of revenge in and of itself. GS had to be defeated for Vorpal's sake, not for revenge. Whose good is it to kill Minmax now?

This, of course, wasn't in the comic. Thac0 tells Complains that he will personally kill him if he goes for Minmax. And he spares GS not out of pity, but so that there will be no GS legend.

I think it would have been interesting. To let the hate seep through, with Thac0's morals and authority being the only thing protecting MM, and the challenge during their collaboration would have been NOT to kill MM. The Goblins could have had different approaches, for example giving a legalistic "death penalty" approach to Ears, and an openly hateful one to Complains, while Vorpal slowly emerges from mutism and has to tip the scales by forcing the goblins to realise that he was no better than MM, to the point of mortally wounding an innocent child, but he did change.

----------


## Kish

> while Vorpal slowly emerges from mutism and has to tip the scales by forcing the goblins to realise that he was no better than MM, to the point of mortally wounding an innocent child, but he did change.


Wait _what_?

I remember Vorpal carelessly frightening a child and accidentally stealing her bear, and getting captured by Dellyn trying to bring it back to her. I sure don't remember any mortal wounds.

Edited to add: For getting Minmax to work with the goblins, I don't think it really would have been particularly hard, especially with Kore chasing them all. The trouble is that Ellipsis doesn't seem to recognize (any more than Anteros does) what a vile character she was writing with Minmax, and thus never intended to write a redemption story--just a "team up" story.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Wait _what_?
> 
> I remember Vorpal carelessly frightening a child and accidentally stealing her bear, and getting captured by Dellyn trying to bring it back to her. I sure don't remember any mortal wounds.


He slashed her with his broken sword and sent her in the negatives. She only survived because Chief healed her.  https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/04172006

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Minmax's association with the goblins , especially with Vorpal, makes even less sense if you consider the timeline involved. 
> Even if we assume every room in the current dungeon took an hour and add an eight hour rest early on, it has been less than a day since the battle on the bridge. You really don't become fast friends in that time, especially if one of you previously murdered two dozen people you've known all your life.


If nothing else, i think you could at the very least consider their current state an alliance of convivence. They needed MM because he was the only one big enough to hold open the gate at the entrance of the dungeon, the only one who could properly connect with Vorpal (and properly bring him out of his catatonic state), and eventually the only one who could save Vorpal from the teller spirits, due to not being a goblin.

I'm pretty sure if you were to ask the GAP themselves, most of them sans Vorpal would agree. I think Vorpal sees him as an actual friend, Big Ears thinks he's worth redemption and / or respects his freindship with Vorpal, Thaco would probably say he's an idiot but useful to have around, and Complains would likely just say they're better off without him, even if he did come in handy a few times.


On Minmax's end, i think he mostly misses Vorpal, but might have gotten more attached to the Goblins then the Goblins did to him. Plus with Kin present, he might be feeling a bit more emotional then usual.

----------


## Kish

Ah, yes, I remember now. So yeah, Ellipsis can write "yay fighting yay XP!" shifting to "oh no what have I done?" (A couple pages later, Vorpal even says "I was no different from the adventurers that attacked us.") She's just not doing so with Minmax's murders.

----------


## Anteros

Minmax is slow. Just because he hasn't expressed regret yet doesn't mean he won't get there. 

Plus,  they did find a prophecy in the goblin camp involving killing all non goblins. And Duv's goblin alliance does exist. They just happen to be the single clan that hadn't joined up yet.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Minmax is slow. Just because he hasn't expressed regret yet doesn't mean he won't get there.


The question here, I think, is whether the comic remembers that that's a necessity. MM changed his general opinion of monsters after getting along with Kin. The comic might forget that it also needs to come to terms with past acts, because, by now, he's a swell guy.

No way to tell before it's over, I guess.

----------


## Traab

> The question here, I think, is whether the comic remembers that that's a necessity. MM changed his general opinion of monsters after getting along with Kin. The comic might forget that it also needs to come to terms with past acts, because, by now, he's a swell guy.
> 
> No way to tell before it's over, I guess.


Since the necklace got erased from history, would that also effect his own outlook? Kin no longer remembers why she likes him so much, that gift being an incredibly touching moment for her. But now it never happened and thats changing their interactions. Since he no longer gave her such a gift and experienced her reaction to it...

----------


## Lizard Lord

> Since the necklace got erased from history, would that also effect his own outlook? Kin no longer remembers why she likes him so much, that gift being an incredibly touching moment for her. But now it never happened and thats changing their interactions. Since he no longer gave her such a gift and experienced her reaction to it...


Minmax never actually understood why even with the necklace (because, as has been mentioned,  he is slow). 

And I still don't get why the necklace in particular anyways. He still threw a birthday party for her right? He still gave a clear and genuine effort to treat and see her as a person against what he had previously believed?

----------


## Anteros

> Minmax never actually understood why even with the necklace (because, as has been mentioned,  he is slow). 
> 
> And I still don't get why the necklace in particular anyways. He still threw a birthday party for her right? He still gave a clear and genuine effort to treat and see her as a person against what he had previously believed?


Maybe she's just incredibly shallow?  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## DaFlipp

Speaking of the necklace (and apologies if this observation's been made before), but I had a thought about it the other day. Unless the already-established rules for how those oblivion-holes work are altered somehow, there's really no satisfying way for the necklace-destroying alt-Kin to get her comeuppance. After all, from her perspective now, _she never threw away any necklace_, so there's no way for her to give away her guilt, and no way for her to feel bad even if someone accused her of it. 

Just... kind of messed up (in an interesting way, not an "oh god why" way, which I know is an important distinction in a comic like Goblins).

----------


## Anteros

> Speaking of the necklace (and apologies if this observation's been made before), but I had a thought about it the other day. Unless the already-established rules for how those oblivion-holes work are altered somehow, there's really no satisfying way for the necklace-destroying alt-Kin to get her comeuppance. After all, from her perspective now, _she never threw away any necklace_, so there's no way for her to give away her guilt, and no way for her to feel bad even if someone accused her of it. 
> 
> Just... kind of messed up (in an interesting way, not an "oh god why" way, which I know is an important distinction in a comic like Goblins).


Well, Forgath had his memory of his beard returned by touching those gears, and both Kins presumably spent a lot of time messing with them. It's not impossible that one of them figured it out. 

If you want to think of something messed up, consider that Kin has spent the last indeterminate amount of time murdering various versions of Forgath and Minmax for xp.  True love at its finest.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

I think the comic's tonal inconsistency goes along with its moral inconsistency. The comic can't consistently decry Minmax's kills, or treat them the same as others' kills, because then the comic would lose half its comic relief.

And I think the comic's tonal inconsistency is a _good_ thing, given the comic's other flaws. With a consistent tone, it would _always_ be suffering and remorse, and there's too much of that already. With an inconsistent tone, an invested reader can filter out the horrid bits, much like you can do with Sluggy Freelance or Schlock Mercenary.

Moral consistency is a good thing to have in a story... but not in _this_ story.

----------


## Vinyadan

About the necklace, it apparently was highly unusual for her. "The most wonderful thing" anyone had done for her. Which honestly makes you wonder how it is to live with the serpentfolk, because it doesn't sound good at all. But it was bigger than the party itself, that's for certain.

So, at the end of the Maze of Many, Kin found herself dealing with a difficult decision and without the main piece to justify choosing Minmax over the Kins. Minmax had saved her life, but so had the Kins, after all. And, without the necklace, there really wasn't anything to make Minmax stand out.

Then Minmax gloriously screwed up. I never wondered if there having been no necklace somehow conditioned his decision to grab the leash (the author might never have, either). But it would make sense. He wouldn't know what makes Kin tick anymore. Kin loved to have her personhood recognised through an object thait said "This is Kin, and nothing else" (about MM using writing as a means of identification, compare the "I am Great" buckle, maybe influenced by Forgath's "This is a helmet"). Instead, Minmax now deals with her dissent by grabbing her leash and annihilating her agency and personhood.

----------


## Cygnia

Have they ever mentioned *why* that collar can't be taken off?  You'd think one of the other Kins would have done so...

----------


## The Glyphstone

IIRC she thinks it'll explode or something?

----------


## BaronOfHell

> Speaking of the necklace (and apologies if this observation's been made before), but I had a thought about it the other day. Unless the already-established rules for how those oblivion-holes work are altered somehow, there's really no satisfying way for the necklace-destroying alt-Kin to get her comeuppance. After all, from her perspective now, _she never threw away any necklace_, so there's no way for her to give away her guilt, and no way for her to feel bad even if someone accused her of it. 
> 
> Just... kind of messed up (in an interesting way, not an "oh god why" way, which I know is an important distinction in a comic like Goblins).


Even if that for some reason happens to be true, Ruby is still the person who would do such a thing. As such, without something changing her perception, I wouldn't be surprised if she'd clash philosophically with our Kin eventually anyway.

About the collar exploding, didn't Forgath say he could remove it once he got remove curse? If so, I guess none of the Kin's ever got that?

----------


## Traab

> Have they ever mentioned *why* that collar can't be taken off?  You'd think one of the other Kins would have done so...


Its a cursed object, if its removed by anything other than the key, or a remove curse spell, it explodes I think. Something along those lines. Im pretty sure forgath was racking up promises for future uses of remove curse when he reached the level long before he bumped into the bunny dwarf and her amazing self punching what machine. As for one of the others removing it, you would think so, but maybe they dont have that spell on their books? We dont even know for sure how long she has been there or what level she has hit. Though she is probably 5 since she cast lightning and is probably not going to be some overpowered character that reached level 9+ and has ridiculous abilities to work with. Considering the other changes they can make to reality with the device psymax built, removing the collar should have also been doable that way. But meh.

----------


## Kish

Kin said it was cursed and unremovable. Forgath offered to Remove Curse it. Kin said that it had a 50% chance of blowing up if someone cast Remove Curse on it. Forgath dropped the subject and so did Ellipsis.

I kind of think "so you're planning on just wearing a collar which anyone who grabs can use to control you, forever?" was the elephant in the room, but it is yet unacknowledged as such.

----------


## Vinyadan

Right, about that... if she is a wizard or a sorcerer, as her spell and familiar would suggest, identify is a lvl 1 spell. In 3.5, unless the collar is an artifact, she should know its workings by now. But I'm not sure of what edition they are in, and, apparently, identify was less powerful in 3.0.

----------


## BaronOfHell

Normally I'd say no way Goblinslayer could have gotten his hand on such a powerful item, which also just happens to satisfy his needs, but in this universe I guess anything is possible when it comes to items.

Heck maybe it is even very difficult to identify, except Goblinslayer also happened to come across an item which conveniently happened to be able to do so as well.

Though I do agree in that I can't see why it couldn't be removed using the gears, or maybe she has managed to change it using the gears, so now it is only a reminder, similar what GS did to Thaco? Though I don't know why she'd keep it as a reminder, but I have no experience with the psychology behind it, so I can't really object either if that is the case.

----------


## Vinyadan

Now that I think about it, there also is that magical wall that identifies items, if it wasn't destroyed in the lolpearl explosion.

EDIT: And Vorpal's staff. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-19

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> Normally I'd say no way Goblinslayer could have gotten his hand on such a powerful item, which also just happens to satisfy his needs, but in this universe I guess anything is possible when it comes to items.
> 
> Heck maybe it is even very difficult to identify, except Goblinslayer also happened to come across an item which conveniently happened to be able to do so as well.
> 
> Though I do agree in that I can't see why it couldn't be removed using the gears, or maybe she has managed to change it using the gears, so now it is only a reminder, similar what GS did to Thaco? Though I don't know why she'd keep it as a reminder, but I have no experience with the psychology behind it, so I can't really object either if that is the case.


I feel this universe is quite generous in dispensing terrible trauma-inducing items honestly.

----------


## Gez

> Kin said it was cursed and unremovable. Forgath offered to Remove Curse it. Kin said that it had a 50% chance of blowing up if someone cast Remove Curse on it. Forgath dropped the subject and so did Ellipsis.
> 
> I kind of think "so you're planning on just wearing a collar which anyone who grabs can use to control you, forever?" was the elephant in the room, but it is yet unacknowledged as such.


She was planning on doing some research to try to find out if the "50% chance to explode" thing was true first (see her last panel here).

----------


## Fyraltari

> Normally I'd say no way Goblinslayer could have gotten his hand on such a powerful item, which also just happens to satisfy his needs, but in this universe I guess anything is possible when it comes to items.


Maybe the oracular face in Brassmoon's wall gave a straight answer for once.

----------


## Vinyadan

New page. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-16-2021

Forgive me if all I could think was "that's a hell of a spurt on the wall".

----------


## Nettlekid

> She was planning on doing some research to try to find out if the "50% chance to explode" thing was true first (see her last panel here).


My theory was that the reason the group had such an astronomically high number of deaths in the Maze of Many was that they repeatedly tried removing the collar.

----------


## remetagross

New comic is up! It's neato.

*Spoiler: SPOIL*
Show


I quite like the grumpy face of Thaco on panel 1! It says "now that's done with that stupid room, let's proceed and stop wasting more time" without spelling it out.

----------


## Traab

Interesting new trap/maze/whatever. So far the only change seems to be the corridor getting simpler in design and the doorknobs changing sides. I wonder when the clue to how to solve this will appear.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Interesting new trap/maze/whatever. So far the only change seems to be the corridor getting simpler in design and the doorknobs changing sides. I wonder when the clue to how to solve this will appear.


The colour on the doors will probably matter. Also, whatever magic is at work here is warping space.

----------


## Anteros

Not a bad update.  I much prefer Goblins when it focuses on humor and light moments rather than trying to be edgy and serious.

----------


## Willie the Duck

It's nonsense on my part, but I noticed that two of the Goblins are only depicted in a group shot from the rear, so my mind immediately went to 'the actors were unavailable for that week of shooting, and those are stand-ins.'  :Small Tongue:

----------


## McNum

Those door patterns made me think of something. Thaco really does make for a fine Yoshi.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> New comic is up! It's neato.
> 
> *Spoiler: SPOIL*
> Show
> 
> 
> I quite like the grumpy face of Thaco on panel 1! It says "now that's done with that stupid room, let's proceed and stop wasting more time" without spelling it out.


*Spoiler*
Show

 it's actually the exact same pose / expression he was in when he left from the Angel's perspective, showing no time at all passed between those two comics.

----------


## Vinyadan

New page https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-18-2021

I think it's a nice one.

----------


## Fyraltari

So, each corridor has one "entrance" and two "exits" one of which brings you back to the entrance of the corridor you were in and the other brings you to the entrance of the other corridor.

The way out is probably to go through the doors in a specific order, most likely to be figured out using the colors. However, Complains going through did not seemnto change the colors on any door. How does this work?

----------


## Quild

Soooo :
*Spoiler*
Show


The first door was lime on both side. Now it's orange?
What if Complains/Chief had taken the purple door?

Despite how stupid GAP can sometimes be, looping hundred of times on 2 corridors without figuring? Really? 
They figured the "against themselves timey-demony thing" during fight but not that?

----------


## Traab

I mean, the hallways are fairly generic as in no clearly obvious differences aside from some being shaped stone blocks and some being a smooth corridor that might as well be solid cement. So without obvious landmarks its excusable that they wouldnt recognize its the same thing for some time. Especially if they were focusing on the color of the doors to see if there was some sort of pattern of colors they should follow. I hope there is some sort of clue as to the pattern they have to follow because very little sucks more than trying at random till it eventually works. It helps there are only two sets of choices to make as its between two sets of doors but there is no way to be sure of the order or how many repeats it takes to set it off. 

A better option would be, search every square inch of the floor walls and ceiling of both sets of hallways. Its entirely likely this is a misdirection time wasting trap and the real exit is hidden. Too bad we dont have forgath here to help with splying!

----------


## Quild

> I mean, the hallways are fairly generic as in no clearly obvious differences aside from some being shaped stone blocks and some being a smooth corridor that might as well be solid cement. So without obvious landmarks its excusable that they wouldnt recognize its the same thing for some time. Especially if they were focusing on the color of the doors to see if there was some sort of pattern of colors they should follow. I hope there is some sort of clue as to the pattern they have to follow because very little sucks more than trying at random till it eventually works. It helps there are only two sets of choices to make as its between two sets of doors but there is no way to be sure of the order or how many repeats it takes to set it off. 
> 
> A better option would be, search every square inch of the floor walls and ceiling of both sets of hallways. Its entirely likely this is a misdirection time wasting trap and the real exit is hidden. Too bad we dont have forgath here to help with splying!


So, if you have:
- You enter a hallway with walls made of stone blocks and two doors in the end. One white with red dots, the other one white with blue dots.
- You enter a corridor with blabla walls and two doors in the end. One white with Purple dots, the other one white with orange dots.
- You enter a hallway with walls made of stone blocks and two doors in the end. One white with red dots, the other one white with blue dots.
- You enter a corridor with blabla walls and two doors in the end. One white with purple dots, the other one white with orange dots.
- You enter a hallway with walls made of stone blocks and two doors in the end. One white with red dots, the other one white with blue dots.
- You enter a corridor with blabla walls and two doors in the end. One white with purple dots, the other one white with orange dots.
- You enter a hallway with walls made of stone blocks and two doors in the end. One white with red dots, the other one white with blue dots.
- You enter a corridor with blabla walls and two doors in the end. One white with purple dots, the other one white with orange dots.
- You enter a hallway with walls made of stone blocks and two doors in the end. One white with red dots, the other one white with blue dots.
- You enter a corridor with blabla walls and two doors in the end. One white with purple dots, the other one white with orange dots.

How long does it take you to figure there might be a problem here?
It took them one hour. The "hundred hallway" might not be an understatement considering how short the hallway is (looks like Chief is taking time to cross one corridor though).

That's making the GAP more stupid than they should be.
But whatever.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

keep in mind the GAP aren't genre savvy, they don't have the experience of other stories or years of adventuring experience like we do. They only started doing this adventuring thing less then a week ago.


This is probably the first "Room loop" situation they have ever even heard of, the concept just didn't exist to them before.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> So, if you have:
> - You enter a hallway with walls made of stone blocks and two doors in the end. One white with red dots, the other one white with blue dots.
> - You enter a corridor with blabla walls and two doors in the end. One white with Purple dots, the other one white with orange dots.
> - You enter a hallway with walls made of stone blocks and two doors in the end. One white with red dots, the other one white with blue dots.
> - You enter a corridor with blabla walls and two doors in the end. One white with purple dots, the other one white with orange dots.
> - You enter a hallway with walls made of stone blocks and two doors in the end. One white with red dots, the other one white with blue dots.
> - You enter a corridor with blabla walls and two doors in the end. One white with purple dots, the other one white with orange dots.
> - You enter a hallway with walls made of stone blocks and two doors in the end. One white with red dots, the other one white with blue dots.
> - You enter a corridor with blabla walls and two doors in the end. One white with purple dots, the other one white with orange dots.
> ...


They initially went through a door with yellow dots to get to a hallway with red and blue options, now they are in one with an orange door leading to the hallway they are in with red and blue options on the other end. There appears to be some form of color-changing going on, or a magical switchout after the initial entrance, either of which could explain the confusion.

----------


## Quild

> They initially went through a door with yellow dots to get to a hallway with red and blue options, now they are in one with an orange door leading to the hallway they are in with red and blue options on the other end. There appears to be some form of color-changing going on, or a magical switchout after the initial entrance, either of which could explain the confusion.


I also wondered how only 2 corridors cope with the fact that either door seems to lead to the same issue (maybe there's a third corridor when you pick right, but doesn't change the point about that first corridor).

But still, besides the first door, they mostly sticked to the left. So it has been red and orange door almost all along.




> keep in mind the GAP aren't genre savvy, they don't have the experience of other stories or years of adventuring experience like we do. They only started doing this adventuring thing less then a week ago.
> 
> 
> This is probably the first "Room loop" situation they have ever even heard of, the concept just didn't exist to them before.


Ears figured the time-loop-room during a fight! https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/06062016-2

But now, it's one hour to figure that? It's not an important issue, but that seems long to me!

----------


## Fyraltari

> I also wondered how only 2 corridors cope with the fact that either door seems to lead to the same issue (maybe there's a third corridor when you pick right, but doesn't change the point about that first corridor).


One door gets you back to the other side of the corridor you're currently in, the other door gets you to the second corridor.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Ears figured the time-loop-room during a fight! https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/06062016-2
> 
> But now, it's one hour to figure that? It's not an important issue, but that seems long to me!



That wasn't a time loop room, or if it was, it was only a single loop. Once they played out both sides, it was all over.

Honestly that room was more light fighting constructs that lived out your past / future actions and figuring out that any actions you took would be actions they took, which was easy enough to identify after seeing the constructs reenacting their past actions to the letter.

----------


## Vinyadan

> .
> 
> Honestly that room was more light fighting constructs that lived out your past / future actions and figuring out that any actions you took would be actions they took, which was easy enough to identify after seeing the constructs reenacting their past actions to the letter.


I think that cutting the duplicate room realization relatively short was a good idea in general, because the similarities between the copies and the GAP were very easy to spot for us readers. What's taking a long time is for Ears to understand why the axe broke, since Vorpal's staff destroys magical bindings and the ability was likely carried over to its copy. The main problem I had with it is that Ears consequently had one of his "oh no, my noble quest" moments, which already feel overdone and repetitive to me, and, in this case, very hard to relate to, since he was assuming that it was due to a personal failing, instead of one of the many random magical items of which the comic is littered.

----------


## Morgaln

> One door gets you back to the other side of the corridor you're currently in, the other door gets you to the second corridor.


But then you should see yourself when opening one of the doors. If that was true, they would have figured it out as soon as they switched to going right instead of left. Rather, it probably doesn't matter which door they go through in a room, they all lead to the same room. 

Of course Complains' test doesn't actually prove there are only two rooms. All it proves is that there is a loop. It might well consist of more than two rooms.

If there is a solution that involves finding a third room, the way is probably to leave someone in this room and the one Complains just came from. The other two walk through the sequence and leave every door they go through open. That way, they can see at a glance if they've been to a specific room, gone through a door already, and whether it leads back to the beginning of the maze or not.

If it's just to open doors in a certain order, it's either try and error or finding a clue to the sequence that is hopefully around.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Yeah, three hallways is likely how I'd set it up. Each door takes you to one of the one's you're not in. (Alternatively four hallways split into two alternating pairs).

You're assuming that the doors don't close automatically. Although at that point you probably leave a goblin at every door to keep it open. Open one door, leave a goblin, the rest of the party goes down the next hallway, opens a door, leave a goblin, go down the hallway and open a door. If there are two hallways you're now certain to be opening a door that's already open, which at the very least gives you information.

But yeah, it's most likely a secret door.

----------


## Tvtyrant

It should also be mentioned that there is a thing called Executive Disfunction, where the brain stops noticing patterns and begins just wearing out after too much stress/too many choices. They have done more in a week then most people in a lifetime, they should really be barely functional and in a state of shock by this point.

----------


## Anteros

> It should also be mentioned that there is a thing called Executive Disfunction, where the brain stops noticing patterns and begins just wearing out after too much stress/too many choices. They have done more in a week then most people in a lifetime, they should really be barely functional and in a state of shock by this point.


That's the type of thing these kinds of stories don't usually address though.

----------


## Fyraltari

> That's the type of thing these kinds of stories don't usually address though.


Though it's kind of tradition to have the protagonist sleep at least a full 24 hours the first night they get after the climax.

----------


## Tvtyrant

> That's the type of thing these kinds of stories don't usually address though.


Fair. I just think given how exhausted they should all be them not noticing a pattern isn't necessarily them being dumb.

----------


## Vinyadan

It also depends on how much light there really is in those rooms, although,  being goblins, they can probably see better than we would.

----------


## Dragonus45

> It should also be mentioned that there is a thing called Executive Disfunction, where the brain stops noticing patterns and begins just wearing out after too much stress/too many choices. They have done more in a week then most people in a lifetime, they should really be barely functional and in a state of shock by this point.


There are some interesting studies about people who have seen extended combat about that kind of thing and while I don't have them on hand and I usually have to rely on people who have real degrees to interpret it so don't call this an exact quote it seemed like that sort of drained inability to think comes after when someone has time to really stop and not move for the first time. They really have been going almost nonstop the whole time.

----------


## Anteros

I'm just more impressed that they apparently closed the door behind them every single time.  You'd think they'd leave a trail or something as soon as they assumed they were in a maze. 

Also, the door in the first hall was yellow.  If it's a loop with only 2 halls, then wouldn't the door they're by, or the door Name's is coming out of also be yellow?  Unless that hallway wasn't part of the puzzle.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

considering the yellow door is what got them into this puzzle, I'd expect it's unique in some way.

----------


## Anteros

> considering the yellow door is what got them into this puzzle, I'd expect it's unique in some way.


Perhaps.  I'm just curious whether it's intended or an error.

----------


## Vinyadan

> I'm just more impressed that they apparently closed the door behind them every single time.  You'd think they'd leave a trail or something as soon as they assumed they were in a maze.


At first, I thought that too. Then I remembered that they still have Kore hounding them, and they can't nuke him with a golem this time.

Of course, it would have been better if these things had been stated by the characters.

----------


## Fyraltari

I think the idea is that the doors change colors when they're not looking.
As for the closed doors, it could be as simple as the doors being imbalanced and so closing themselves.

----------


## Morgaln

However, the walls look like it should be easy to break out chunks that can be used to prop the doors open. Especially with magic weapons.

----------


## Lacco

Considering what we've seen so far from this dungeon, I assume their IME should be matched with the door.

Does anyone remember what are the IME of the goblins? I could check, but I find the archive extremely irritating and I assume there are fans that keep track of info like this.

----------


## Keltest

> Considering what we've seen so far from this dungeon, I assume their IME should be matched with the door.
> 
> Does anyone remember what are the IME of the goblins? I could check, but I find the archive extremely irritating and I assume there are fans that keep track of info like this.


Uhh... Off hand i recall that Names is purple, which has become exceptionally elaborate but rarely seen given that he isnt a spellcaster, and i want to say that Big Ears is just yellow, consistent with, you know, everything about him. I dont think we've ever seen Thaco's, and while Vorpal can and has cast spells, i dont think it was a big flashy one.

----------


## Morgaln

> Uhh... Off hand i recall that Names is purple, which has become exceptionally elaborate but rarely seen given that he isnt a spellcaster, and i want to say that Big Ears is just yellow, consistent with, you know, everything about him. I dont think we've ever seen Thaco's, and while Vorpal can and has cast spells, i dont think it was a big flashy one.


Vorpal's is white, we've seen that once when he grabbed Name's original sword. I don't think we've ever seen Thaco's IME.

----------


## Wildstag

> Uhh... Off hand i recall that Names is purple, which has become exceptionally elaborate but rarely seen given that he isnt a spellcaster


Um... we see it every time he rages, which is pretty often. The purple demon tail was his IME, and now that's expanded to include demonic wings.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Uhh... Off hand i recall that Names is purple, which has become exceptionally elaborate but rarely seen given that he isnt a spellcaster, and i want to say that Big Ears is just yellow, consistent with, you know, everything about him. I dont think we've ever seen Thaco's, and while Vorpal can and has cast spells, i dont think it was a big flashy one.


Names' is a large purple scorpion tail, like that of those demons coming out of a hole in the ground at the beginning of the comic. Now it has wings, which explains why he inexplicably started flying while in the angel's domain. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-11-2020 Big Ears' looks like yellow bricks, unless he also got wings from the angel's horn https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/06272008 https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-2-2021 . Chief's looked like a pale blue, partial sketch of the face on his crown https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/11052010-2 . Vorpal has used spells without showing much of an IME https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/prophecies , but his face lights up in a white flame when he uses magic items. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-10-2020 , so I don't think we have seen how his effect is shaped. Thac0's IME might be light orange https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-7-2021 as all other characters have a violent colorful explosion as they appear or disappear, matching their IMEs. However, when he reappears, he doesn't even sparkle. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-17-2021

----------


## Anteros

> Names' is a large purple scorpion tail, like that of those demons coming out of a hole in the ground at the beginning of the comic. Now it has wings, which explains why he inexplicably started flying while in the angel's domain. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-11-2020 Big Ears' looks like yellow bricks, unless he also got wings from the angel's horn https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/06272008 https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-2-2021 . Chief's looked like a pale blue, partial sketch of the face on his crown https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/11052010-2 . Vorpal has used spells without showing much of an IME https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/prophecies , but his face lights up in a white flame when he uses magic items. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-10-2020 , so I don't think we have seen how his effect is shaped. Thac0's IME might be light orange https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-7-2021 as all other characters have a violent colorful explosion as they appear or disappear, matching their IMEs. However, when he reappears, he doesn't even sparkle. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-17-2021


The white flame on Vorpal's face in that scene is just his moustache.  It's enchanted to glow.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

The room at the beginning of this dungeon changed lighting depending on the speaker's IME. From it, Thaco's is orange, Big Ears' is yellow, Complains' is purple, Minmax's is a darker purple, and Vorpal's is white.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> The white flame on Vorpal's face in that scene is just his moustache.  It's enchanted to glow.


All evidence we have (including Name's first sword) suggests that magic items take on the IME of their user.

Although I admittedly haven't gone back to check and am working from memory.

----------


## Vinyadan

Now that I think about it, didn't Thac0's magic blindfold show him incoming attacks as orange arcs?

----------


## Anteros

> All evidence we have (including Name's first sword) suggests that magic items take on the IME of their user.
> 
> Although I admittedly haven't gone back to check and am working from memory.


I don't dispute that, just pointing out that the flames in that panel are explicitly from the levitation enchantment.  
https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/04032017-2

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I don't dispute that, just pointing out that the flames in that panel are explicitly from the levitation enchantment.  
> https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/04032017-2


True, but the colour of the flames is likely the same as his IME.

----------


## Anteros

> True, but the colour of the flames is likely the same as his IME.


I agree with you.

----------


## Hands_Of_Blue

The sound effects characters make are also the same colour as their IME. My favourite little subtle use of IME is that Minmax's eyes have a green tint and Kin's eyes have a purple tint because of the whole "Seeing each other"/true love thingamajig.

----------


## Anteros

> The sound effects characters make are also the same colour as their IME. My favourite little subtle use of IME is that Minmax's eyes have a green tint and Kin's eyes have a purple tint because of the whole "Seeing each other"/true love thingamajig.


Interesting.  I never noticed that before.  It seems really obvious now that you pointed it out though.  I wondered why I never noticed, so I went back in the archives, and it wasn't a thing in earlier scenes, even after they began "seeing" each other.

Seems to start here
https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/04292015 

Neat change regardless.

----------


## Vinyadan

It's a nice detail I don't think I would have noticed without these last posts.

About special IMEs, I think Goblinslayer's was a gradient of two colours, since he was a mix of man and tree.

----------


## Gez

> Interesting.  I never noticed that before.  It seems really obvious now that you pointed it out though.  I wondered why I never noticed, so I went back in the archives, and it wasn't a thing in earlier scenes, even after they began "seeing" each other.
> 
> Seems to start here
> https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/04292015 
> 
> Neat change regardless.


It's older than that, I went backward and found it here:
https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/02112015

It is subtle because it's a bunch of tiny panels so the relevant eye detail is just like 6 pixels per panel, but it's there.

Going backward more than that isn't very conclusive. Here the detail is definitely white.

----------


## Kornaki

I didn't notice either the sound effects or the eye color, very cool.

----------


## Anteros

> It's older than that, I went backward and found it here:
> https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/02112015
> 
> It is subtle because it's a bunch of tiny panels so the relevant eye detail is just like 6 pixels per panel, but it's there.
> 
> Going backward more than that isn't very conclusive. Here the detail is definitely white.


I can't see it there, but maybe you have a better quality screen than me or something.  Either way, those comics are right next to each other.  Seems like it started when they entered the dungeon.

----------


## Hands_Of_Blue

Going back a bit, I did notice Fumbles _also_ has a purple tint to his eyes. Perhaps I was wrong about Kin and Minmax? But it just seemed to fit so well. Now I'm just confused.

----------


## Anteros

> Going back a bit, I did notice Fumbles _also_ has a purple tint to his eyes. Perhaps I was wrong about Kin and Minmax? But it just seemed to fit so well. Now I'm just confused.


Maybe he's just Seeing Minmax too.   :Small Big Grin: 

It could just be an art decision.  Minmax's eyes match his armor and Kin's match her shirt.  The earlier scene when Minmax is wearing other colors his eye is still green though.  Something to keep an eye on.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> It could just be an art decision.  Minmax's eyes match his armor and Kin's match her shirt.


i feel like this being the case when they meet up again might have been intentional from a narrative standpoint, if not from an in-character one. Shows that green and purple keep intermixing, and that the purple one is embraced by green, while the green one is embraced by purple, etc.

----------


## tomaO2

So. Good news, bad news, on the Goblins Animated Mega Trailer. Which do you want first? Good news? Sure. Why not. Not been much of that for the project.

*Good news* is that, after FOUR YEARS, the animation is officially done. Hurray! Unfortunately...

*Bad news* is that you don't get to watch it. That good old perfectionist streak that this author is known for strikes again. Art isn't good enough to release. Vorpal's right eye just isn't big enough, you know? That's something that is _really important_ to include, and so the animation that fans gave over 300k to create, can't be shown.  _*rolls eyes*_

There is no way they have enough money to make the animation to the standard they are going to want. I'm honestly amazed that the money they got stretched enough to cover everything so far. I mean, the Giant completely burned out all of his money on the OOTS kickstarter, and the Giant did most of the work himself, while also avoiding any major screw ups. This is a project that got delayed multiple times, and the people hired to work on it needed to be paid throughout the entire thing. 

 If I understand the update, it seems what they think that they can get an interested studio to fund a Goblins Animation without relying on the mega-trailer. Then, once a deal is in place, they will release it, since it can't taint the people they are making the pitch of the series to. 

I mean, the entire point of the thing in the first place is to advertise Goblins, so that doesn't seem right. I'm willing to bet even money that we will be looking at another fundraiser to completely redo the animation from scratch. 

Relevant section of the latest update. 




> So where's the Animation?
> 
> Well, in a word...
> 
> *We're not releasing it yet. We can. But we're going to hold off.* Here's why.
> 
> We still are not fans of a lot of the animation that was created, and even though the second animation house fixed a lot of the most glaring errors, we are simply stuck with some of the things that the first house produced. We debated alternatives to continue pushing toward the original vision, but the issue is that the animation is finished. This makes it hard for us because if we release this thing wide, it will please our audience because they are receiving the thing they helped create, but it will not be what we want the final show to look like, and once people have a completed vision of something it is very hard to say, "but what we want it to look like for reals is this over here..." especially when the voice work is so on point, the music is amazing, and the jokes are landing because it is so well acted. This also muddies the waters because the internet is the internet and once a genie is out of the bottle, it is impossible to put back.* So even though the animation is right here and only a click away, you guys will have to hold on a bit longer as we do the run of the studios and streaming services to get Goblins out to market the way we want it to be.* So, I'm afraid for the time being we must ask you to be patient.
> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/g...n#/updates/all


On another note. Decent output for the year. There have been a total of 18 pages so far. I think there will be at least 1 more before the end of 2021. Assuming a total of 19, that makes one page every 2.7 weeks. 

Archives seem to list the number of pages that were done during a given year. May as well scroll back to see how the output has been.

2021: Total of 18 pages.
2020: Total of 21 pages.
2019: Total of 27 pages. Huh? I think I'd remember if updates were being done this often.
2018: Total of 29 pages. Okay, this can't possibly be correct. Two years where updates were faster than bi-weekly?
2017: Archives don't do this page number system. 

I distantly remember being excited about more frequent updates. Yea, found the posts where I started talking about it on page 40 of the previous thread. There is no possible way that these totals are right. I need to get an independent confirmation on the total updates for previous years. I feel like I have listings of previous updates posted in one of these goblin threads. Haven't been able to find it yet though. 

On another note. There is a new go fund me in order to get money in order to qualify for bottom surgery.  
https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-elli...ource=customer

To be fair, she did give a tweet thanking people once it broke 1,900$. However, as with the previous gofundme, the moment the money was raised, two weeks ago, by a person that donated 3,200$, she stopped talking about it. You can still donate though. Really have no idea if it's common for these things to never actually close or not. I visit the website to try and see other gofundme stuff but I can't seem to find anything. 

Anyway, the goal was 3,500$ (current amount raised is over 5k). That's pretty low. Very surprised she is doing this. Given that she stated that she didn't want to go back to the GoFundMe well to get that voice surgery, and she never even got the voice surgery. She never said she got it done anyway, and I feel like she would have mentioned it, if she had done it. I guess she must be spending her  patron money on something else though, if she doesn't have enough to cover this. 

How much does she make in patron donations again? Let me check.

Huh. Not listed? When did that happen? Looks like November 9th was the last day that the donation amount total was tracked (amount was 1,395$ at the time, so it should still be around that). I wonder why that was removed. 

https://graphtreon.com/creator/Goblins

According to the tracker. There has been an increase in patrons since 2019. Before that point, there was a low of 498 patrons with money being 1,060$. Current number is 564, with money amount being unlisted. Looks like  hit a plateau a few months ago. Wonder why the dollar amount was removed.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

{Scrubbed}

You're getting upset about something you clearly don't give two flips about anyways. Maybe instead of writing a multi-paragraph rant about "WhErEs ThE AnImAtIoN!?1?1/dwf" you could save yourself some energy by either saying nothing, or idk, being like the rest of us and thinking "Good to know, thanks for the update!" or something?


IDK about the others, but i seriously don't appreciate you spewing hate and conspiracy theories about the author here. Maybe go somewhere else for that please?

----------


## Anteros

I find it perfectly relevant to the thread that the author is once again not releasing a product that they collected money for. This is at least the third time that they've collected money and not delivered off of the top of my head.  

At this point, fans have sunk *half a million dollars* into promises that the author has not kept. That's worth talking about. 

Not that they need anyone's permission to post anyway.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> At this point, fans have sunk *half a million dollars* into promises that the author has not kept. That's worth talking about.


As somebody who originally stopped following Goblins in like 2014(?), and started again this year to find they were still in the same dungeon, I'm personally very interested as to why there seems to be no progress on anything.

We're told there's an animation but we can't see it due to perfectionism reasons, and honestly my first reaction has been to doubt it's existence. Plus I honestly don't have any sympathy to 'we don't want to show you something that won't look like the final product, when even if it was exactly what she wants there will likely be changes in visuals before the series anyway. I don't know, I have less confidence that there's anything there than I do with the Girl Genius cartoon (although that's admittedly because Steve Jackson has charged me again).

----------


## Anteros

I'm actually a little torn.  Saying "this product isn't good enough quality and we're not going to release it" is a perfectly reasonable take.  Except when you have a history of taking money from your fans for things and then not doing those things.  

Ellipsis has a really bad habit of blaming other people for things that are their fault.  "Oh it's not my fault the card game didn't release.  Someone took all the money and ran."  Really?  Why weren't you more involved?  Why did you just blindly hand someone hundreds of thousands of dollars without having your own people in place to supervise things?  I do contract work myself for large sums of money sometimes.  You know what people don't do?  They don't hand you a huge lump of money with no supervision and blindly hope you'll do the work.  

This animation is basically the same story.  "Oh, we spent all out money on this, but the studio didn't do a good job so we aren't releasing it."  Why weren't you supervising their work?  Why did you let it get to the point where it cost all your money but was an unsalvageable mess?  *Why didn't you learn this lesson the first time you wasted hundreds of thousands of your fan's dollars?*

Honestly, the sheer audacity they have to keep putting the panhandling cup out is astounding.  Do they not have any sense of shame at all?  They're basically in a predatory relationship with their donors at this point.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

i mean, you can always choose to just not give them any money? :Small Confused: 


that's a perfectly reasonable option that many peopled take every day! i choose not to give groups i dislike money and move on with my life daily!

----------


## Vinyadan

I think that the decision not to release the animation to the general public and instead to use it to pitch the series to producers makes a lot of sense. It's what I expected would be done with it in the first place. 

Animation is costly. So it can be bad. If the animation is bad, but you can show that you have the writing, directing, and acting talent for the job, then it's easier to be forgiven by people whose profession is built around providing enough money and guidance (or intromissions) to hire a serious animation studio.

But the general public isn't expected to think this far. It sees a product, and it assumes that it's how it's going to be. So releasing a badly animated trailer can be a way to build bad publicity and kill interest in the public. Not to say anything about the way companies have occasionally bowed to internet crapstorms, and Goblins has a pretty long history, so I can imagine both current trolls and past controversies piling up on a released youtube video, with a producer reading the comments and going "uhm-uhm".

Unless it's really ugly all over, however, I would have released a select 10-secs "bad vs corrected" showcase. It's also a way to show some of the acting.

On a side note, I wonder if places that provide sex-change for free also pay for permanent hair removal. For what I understand, it's a very important part of the procedure (the skin that was outside ends up on the inside).

----------


## Tvtyrant

> i mean, you can always choose to just not give them any money?
> 
> 
> that's a perfectly reasonable option that many peopled take every day! i choose not to give groups i dislike money and move on with my life daily!


I've had at least two friends compare Goblins to Starcitizen.  Saying "don't give Starcitizen your money and move on" isn't really good advice, especially combining since you are literally telling people not to talk about it and so possibly warn people who don't know.

This is in regards to the animation and card game. The medical donations are IMO unrelated and not something I will be discussing.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> i mean, you can always choose to just not give them any money?
> 
> 
> that's a perfectly reasonable option that many peopled take every day! i choose not to give groups i dislike money and move on with my life daily!


People are also allowed to share their opinion and frustration, especially just after such an update. If they're posted on a forum as politely and in-depth as here the worst it'll do is make somebody reading the thread will think twice before donating next time. Plus it's likely that people reading this are already aware of the goings on 




> This is in regards to the animation and card game. The medical donations are IMO unrelated and not something I will be discussing.


Also this. I'm staying well away from the transition stuff.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

Okay, well i come here to talk about the webcomic and the events therin. so I'm going to leave now if the conversation is shifting to "needing to wait is bad" mode. goodbye.

----------


## Tvtyrant

> Okay, well i come here to talk about the webcomic and the events therin. so I'm going to leave now if the conversation is shifting to "needing to wait is bad" mode. goodbye.


This is the first time it came up in what, a year? If you have something else you would rather be talking about go for it. You aren't actually changing the subject, just telling everyone else to.

----------


## Dragonus45

> [FONT=Comic Sans MS]So. Good news, bad news, on the Goblins Animated Mega Trailer. Which do you want first? Good news? Sure. Why not. Not been much of that for the project...


Very little I could say to this that wouldn't be a scrubbing, so I'll settle for the bare minimum of expressing disappointment is Eli and encouraging people not to support extraneous projects outside the comic until some commitments start being settled up. Hell if you have a spare dollar for a webcomic creator right now throw at the Misfile guy. He is having a rough time of things lately and is an absolute workhorse of an author who always delivers on his projects in a timely fashion and deserves more attention I think.




> i mean, you can always choose to just not give them any money?
> 
> that's a perfectly reasonable option that many peopled take every day! i choose not to give groups i dislike money and move on with my life daily!


Ok, but guess what. The thread is to discuss Goblins, and discussion of it's animated adaptation and the good and bad of that is 100% fair game. As is discussion of the author and the public decisions they make. I get hopping mad at people who wander into a thread just to **** on a thing they don't like and have no emotional investment in, it's the reason I'm just steering clear of the whole Wheel of Time thread right now for example. But I AM invested in Goblins as a comic and Ellipsis as a person. Both emotionally and monetarily, I've been following this comic for over a third of the time I've been alive. Real close to half even, I'm still a fan for some Pelor forsaken reason and if you think I'm going to just not talk about these issues because it hurts your enjoyment of the thread I'm sorry but it just isn't happening.

----------


## tomaO2

> I think that the decision not to release the animation to the general public and instead to use it to pitch the series to producers makes a lot of sense. It's what I expected would be done with it in the first place. 
> 
> Animation is costly. So it can be bad. If the animation is bad, but you can show that you have the writing, directing, and acting talent for the job, then it's easier to be forgiven by people whose profession is built around providing enough money and guidance (or intromissions) to hire a serious animation studio.


Hmm,  I didn't realize that is how it is. So, I should be taking that post at face value then. The mega trailer is actively being used to pitch the series to the producers, and it will be released if/when someone picks up the series? Suppose the series is not picked up though, would that mean this project is in limbo? These people have been taking about making Goblins a show for a long time now. I don't have a good understanding of how many years this pitch process is supposed to last. Maybe it will never be released, because who knows if someone might be interested in the project 10 years from now. I feel like there should be some sort of timeline given as to when the trailer will be released, rather than vague promises. 

Update on Feb 16th, 2021, says_ "In an incredible moment, we went back and forth with a very big showrunner (a showrunner for a TV show is kind of like a CEO for a company), and he agreed to help shepherd GA to the screen and become our showrunner!" 
_
How long does this process go on before you run out of people to pitch this too? How big of a difference is there now that the trailer is done? There isn't much word about this being the last step before everything can really get going. Pitching to other studios is a bit downplayed in this update. Seems like it's been a constant effort to promote that has been going on for a few years now.

How likely do you think it is that the general public will be able to view this? Do you think I'm right about it not being released unless the animation is completely redone? You mentioned 10 second segments, but that would still require money to fix in the first place. Would they wait until the first episode of the official show is dropped, and the trailer is shown as a extra footage sort of deal?

Honestly, I feel like they should have been warning people upfront that the animation wouldn't be released to the general public. When was this decision made? Was it originally intended to be released, but they changed their minds when they decided the quality was not good enough? They would have known this awhile ago, since they have been constantly talking about how they didn't like the art. Feels like a, last minute, pull the rug under ya, ploy. 

How does, "not wanting to taint the public" thinking even square with the animation that was released to fund the project to begin with? That was everyone's actual first look at stuff, and I would expect that it would look fairly similar, albeit more polished. That is the part that constantly gets me. They did a short animation, saw how it looked, and thought it was okay at the time. What changed? Why is it terrible now?

----------


## Anteros

It basically went from "Here's a trailer.  Give us money to make an episode!" 

to "we can't make a whole episode, we'll use your money for a better trailer" 

to "We made a trailer but we don't like it so we're hiring a second studio.  Keep that money coming!" 

to "The second studio is done, but we don't want to show you our product in case we can con someone else into giving us more money in the future for this project that we've already shown you thrice over we're too incompetent to handle"

I'd call it a bait and switch...except it's somehow multiple of those.  They spent hundreds of thousands of their fans dollars...._and they weren't even competent enough to make something they can market towards an actual product_.  Nevermind the actual episode that was originally promised.

----------


## Vinyadan

I mean, I also grow suspicious when Goblins fans give their money thrice in around 10 years and nothing materialises. However, looking at it, every single case had something to explain it.

Tempts Fate is the most glaring problem to me. There were no third parties involved: just the donors and the artist. And yet, it wasn't finished. Why? My point of view is that Tempts Fate didn't make sense (which isn't a justification, but an explanation). What people wanted was more Goblins pages. But instead money came from a side-product, TF. When production ground close to a halt, putting TF on hold to concentrate on the main comic was arguably the better option to keep fans happy. It probably would have taken a year of nothing but TF pages to finish the current issue. And, when Patreon came about, it finally was the main product -- Goblins -- that began making money. And that's a business model that makes sense. Even today, Tempts Fate would still slow down the main comic in an unbearable way, and I'm not sure people who donated for it would prefer it to the main comic.

I was really suspicious about the whole card game deal, but I took a look at Evertide, which was the business tasked with making the Kickstarter and producing the game. After the successful Goblins Kickstarter, Evertide was already failing to fulfill its promises with Mr. Card Game, another Kickstarter, before it disappeared. The timing strongly suggests that Goblins money was used to complete Mr Card Game, which was also not fully shipped because of overwhelming costs (the game was printed in Asia and then sent to the US in bulk, but sending from the US internationally raised the price massively). And the Goblins Kickstarter was made directly by Evertide, so they were the only ones to touch the money.

Concerning the trailer, the main reason why I believe it exists is that too many people working in the field have spoken openly about their involvement with it (it's easy to find such videos of Phil LaMarr; the updates come from Matt King). The slow making does seem odd, however; under normal conditions, I would assume that the project has periodically run out of money and laid dormant until it got a new injection. The other option has to do with Goblin's traditionally slow production, if any work had to be done directly (instead of by the hired studio) while also creating new comic pages, working at the giveaways, and dealing with the usual personal issues.

About the mega trailer, I don't really care about it per se. It's just a trailer, a short animation that likely doesn't even tell an actual story. The big bet is about whether it will cause anyone with money to actually pick up the series, and that's the thing to watch. If the trailer were never released, I would not feel like something was lost. I would like to see the series, however.

Pitching time is over when the "pitcher" decides it's over. Honestly, it's a shot in the dark. Goblins has its strong points, but also its weak points, and the current writing quality does not compare well to the one at the comic's beginning. However, LaMarr said that he was cowriting the series, so it would be a collaborative effort, which should make quality more even. Matt King is also a co-creator.

With the 10 sec segments I meant some short segments comparing the work of the first studio (the "bad" one) and the one of the second studio (the patched version that is now complete). The material is already there, one would just need to make a very short youtube video with Moviemaker to show how the project has improved.

About the initial, rough animation, that was the trailer's trailer that was pitched to backers for them to pay to produce the trailer to be used to pitch the series itself  :Small Big Grin:  The other video I saw were b/w storyboards, still pretty clearly an unfinished product. 

I speculate that the decision not to release the trailer was not the original intention, and came from someone with experience in the field once it was finished, for the reasons I mentioned in the previous post. 

Hazbin Hotel did the opposite, it released a fully done, very well-animated 30-mins pilot which has been there for a year waiting for someone to pick the series (a different series by the same people was picked in the meantime). But that's the thing, it's very well done, and people want to see more. Had it not been that carefully animated, there wouldn't be as much hype, I believe (I think the fandom also got more access to the creation stage and the worldbuilding).

It's also true that a proverbially slow comic like Lackadaisy has been releasing more sneak peeks in its making than Goblins (they're working on a 10-min. short, that one I really want to watch). However, the stated objective in this case is just the short, not pitching it to a producer.

Fun fact, Blind Ferret (the people behind Looking for Group and who produced CAD Animated) has had a fully fledged animation studio called Laughing Dragon for some time now, but I'm not aware of any project they are working on.

----------


## Anteros

I believe the LFG people have stated they won't work with Ellipsis anymore.  I could be wrong, but I definitely seem to remember there being some bad blood there when they split up.  Mostly due to Ellipsis' inability to keep a schedule or meet their contract requirements if I recall correctly.  It's been a long time.  

You might be right that the kickstarter was run by the card company, but Ellipsis is still responsible for that.  If you asked to run a kickstarter in my name, I certainly wouldn't sign off on it without some level of control.  If they turned over the entire handling of the project as well as the handling of the money to a 3rd party....that's on them.  No wonder they got robbed.  

I also understand the desire to not show an incomplete product.  Especially when it's basically a proof of concept.  The problem is that eventually you do owe something to the people you're continually begging for handouts from.  If they couldn't come up with something they feel like they can show people with hundreds of thousands of dollars, 2 animation studios, and 6 years?  That's on them too.  I'm not sure that's as much a better look as they think it is.  "Hey guys, I know everything we've ever touched has been awful and the money for it mysteriously evaporated, but this time will be different!"  I bet the studios can't wait to line up for _that_ opportunity.   :Small Sigh:

----------


## tomaO2

> Concerning the trailer, the main reason why I believe it exists is that too many people working in the field have spoken openly about their involvement with it (it's easy to find such videos of Phil LaMarr; the updates come from Matt King). The slow making does seem odd, however; under normal conditions, I would assume that the project has periodically run out of money and laid dormant until it got a new injection. The other option has to do with Goblin's traditionally slow production, if any work had to be done directly (instead of by the hired studio) while also creating new comic pages, working at the giveaways, and dealing with the usual personal issues.



New injections of money? You think they have been raising significant funds from corporate backers then? There has been a trickle of money coming in from the Gofundme, but it only added an additional 20k, or so. I remember how other projects got a lot of backlash from getting extra funds. Um, games that got funded by Epic, in return for an exclusive period on their gaming website is an example I recall. Would it be possible to find out if other funds have been added, and who added it? I feel like there should have been an announcement if there was a big infusion of money from someone else. 

Hazbin Hotel? Never heard of it but I'm interested. Watched the episode. Seventy million views? That's amazingly good for an animation like this. Wait. The youtube channel has 6 million subscribers? A lot of these videos have millions of views as well. Over FIVE THOUSAND patrons? This project is a massive success on every possible level. Good for them.

Overall, it's not really my thing. It's very frenetic. Jumps around a lot. That said, I will agree that the animation/audio were great, and help sell the pilot. That Radio Demon was a standout character. Loved the radio voice and personality. My interest in the show went up a lot as soon as he showed up. This is another webcomic that is trying to get picked up by a network? It's just so tough, which makes me wonder how feasible this even is. Every possible level of success has been achieved by Hazbin, except mainstream backing. 

If this show can't manage it, how could Goblins? I mean, yes, this Goblins project got a lot of famous voice actors, but voice actors don't have a lot of marketability (and there are plenty of people that can to just as good a job, as is shown in this Hazbin Hotel pilot), as is constantly shown by famous celebs doing voice work for major animations instead. That new Netflix's 'Masters of the Universe' cartoon being a great example. Mark Hamill and Sarah Michelle Gellar are fine actors, but they were clearly picked for their name brand, rather than if they were suitable for the parts they were playing (I do not believe they were). With top notch animation to boot. Not much consideration as to what fans of He Man might think about a show without much He Man though.

In the end, webcomics just can't make a dent in television/movies. Even the most famous ones, such as Girl Genius, which has books I can buy at the store, and even a radio play, can't break into the market. I don't think it's fair to withhold the animation in order to maybe have a slightly better chance at getting this picked up. However, I do agree that the fans should hear about why the animation is not considered good enough to release. I think that is a reasonable question. It's obviously something they will be talking to all these producers about, so why not tell the backers about what is wrong with it, specifically. I'm personally not sure if there is something wrong with it, or if Elli is just being overly controlling over everything, and it is actually fine. Could go either way, in my mind. 

I think Temps Fate and the card game are shows of how controlling the author is in the limited area she is interested in. When it came to the artwork of the character cards, all that needed to be done by herself, but the management of the card game itself got no attention. Temps Fate has always been subject to overrun. The original Temps Fate was fun. It was a few simple drawings that got the point across. You didn't need more, but we got more. I actually complained about the expantion about it. I didn't see the need for all the increases in donations and art. I think it would have been fine if it had stayed at the original level. Small donation goals to help out, and easy art so it doesn't take up too much time. 

That said, I would not deny that some of it was _really_ good. Elli absolutely excels in interactive content. The Temps Fate puzzle challenges were a ton of fun, and the concept for the Temp's Fate RPG was actually something that had just as much interest, or even MORE interest, than in the comic itself. The hype for that was real. Design your own characters, plunge into the dungeons. Bi-weekly raids. It would have been glorious. I'd never been more excited to be a goblins fan than I was when that project was announced. It was bold and innovative, and it got a ton of attention. Too much, unfortunately, which led Elli to want to expand it, which caused the project to be postponed AFTER it started. In the handful of hours that the game went live, hundreds of dollars were donated. I think it was at least 600$. We were promised a new version that would be able to handle all the hundreds of people that wanted to play, but it was eventually canceled instead, because she couldn't be bothered to handle the work, or maybe because she decided that it just wasn't interesting to her anymore. 

People complain about that last Temps Fate not giving people what they paid for but the RPG was much more egregious, in my mind. Money raised was just rolled into a new adventure that was, frankly, boring in comparison. People paid for the RPG and got some crappy Predator ripoff. How much money did that make again? 

Hey... Wait a minute. Where are the Temps Fate comics? Looking. I can't find them.
Googling to find them. Not here. 
Checking google images. Found images. 
Clicking. No longer there. 
Oh my god...

*Elli DELETED Tempts Fate.* 

Why? Why would you do such a petty thing Elli? You think it's fine not to complete your comics of the character if you just delete all mentions? Do you feel that your Gofundme means that you can just ask for money without bothering to actually do anything, and you don't want people getting ideas about you ever doing work for it again? I'm mad now. Fans paid for every bit of that content and it got deleted. How can anyone trust a person that shows distain to the fans like this? There is no excuse for this. NONE!

I'm gonna stop talking before I say something that gets scrubbed. Just furious right now.

----------


## Vinyadan

I don't have any insider knowledge; it's just how I am used to see things work. Construction of a building is stopped for some years because the project stopped receiving funding, and resumes once money is back. A school stops offering a course because an external backer isn't donating any more, a new backer shows up the following year and the course is back (or the State finally coughs up some more dough...). A theater troupe stops touring for lack of a contract with a producer, and resumes after another one shows up. As I said, there's always a lot of issues surrounding Goblins production, even with just the comic, so it's possible that money has nothing to do with it. And the series is made up of 10 or 12 episodes; if they were written in advance, that would have taken quite a lot of time, especially as a collaboration between 2 or 3 people. And I don't know of the pandemic would have impacted the whole thing.

About Blind Ferret, the tragicomedy here is that the likely reason for the break-up is that they were entitled to market Goblins products, but were excluded from any dealing with the card game. It wasn't openly stated, but the timeline of tweets and blog posts strongly suggested this was the case. Especially this one: https://www.goblinscomic.com/blog/bi...es-for-goblins

----------


## Typewriter

I think that people talking about this stuff is important because it's the kind of thing that helps people make their decisions in whether or not to support a creator. I backed the Goblins board game and cancelled at the last minute because I was familiar with the track record Elli had with her content. I knew she wasn't the one running the Kickstarter but I knew I couldn't trust her to partner with anyone reliable. If I had only my own personal experiences of reading the comic up to that point and reading about all the things she'd done I might not have cancelled but I knew that her projects regularly imploded or got abandoned thanks to communities like this one and so I saved myself 99 dollars.

I didn't invest in her trailer or anything else and so I don't care what she does with the trailer or her projects. I'll read the comic as long as it remains free and that'll be the extent of my involvement with her. But that doesn't mean that I, or anyone else, shouldn't talk about her history with these projects because otherwise people will make the mistake of backing her without knowing what's going on. I mean it's already absurd that people can't even go to the actual Goblins site for updates related to Goblins content because she's essentially abandoned it as a means of communication. The last update is over a year old at this point and that one was from her wife. Ellis most recent blog post on the site is over 2 years old at this point. How are people supposed to know about this stuff without other people talking about it?

----------


## sihnfahl

> Hazbin Hotel? Never heard of it but I'm interested. Watched the episode. Seventy million views? That's amazingly good for an animation like this. Wait. The youtube channel has 6 million subscribers? A lot of these videos have millions of views as well. Over FIVE THOUSAND patrons? This project is a massive success on every possible level. Good for them.


Viv's same-universe foray is far more successful AND has 7 additional episodes past the pilot.

And even has Richard Horvitz as the voice of a main character.

Hazbin didn't take off, IMHO, because the premise was extremely self-limiting.  The pilot made it clear that -nobody- was seeking redemption.

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> Hazbin didn't take off, IMHO, because the premise was extremely self-limiting.  The pilot made it clear that -nobody- was seeking redemption.


Which I find a pity, since I really liked Alastor...




> How are people supposed to know about this stuff without other people talking about it?


One could argue the less people hear about any Goblins-related projects and whatnot, the better for them ;)

----------


## sihnfahl

> Which I find a pity, since I really liked Alastor...


Since it occurs in the same universe, Alastor CAN make an appearance, but it'd be more of a cameo than anything else, since the story is wholly wrapped around The Four at this point.

----------


## Giulio64

> Hazbin didn't take off.


What? yes it did, they are producing it together with A24. Just a few days ago they even made an official instagram account. It'll probably still take some time, maybe even years, for it to be released, but it wasn't abandoned.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Hazbin didn't take off, IMHO, because the premise was extremely self-limiting.  The pilot made it clear that -nobody- was seeking redemption.


Sorry what? After it got approximately a billion views on youtube Netflix picked it up and it's getting made as we speak. It took off like it was aiming for escape velocity.

----------


## Taevyr

Yeah, I'd guess that part of the original reasoning behind Helluva was to keep Viv in the public consciousness: a way to bridge the gap between Hazbin getting picked up by Netflix and it actually getting released. Like dropping lore, interviews with showrunners/writers and short clips before release.

Then it turned out people just freaking _love_ that bridge (and for good reason, imo), and now it's a sensation all on its own. And both spread across the internet on their own: a very unique animation style, highly meme-able, the typical character twitter account things... they put in the effort, and it paid off. Even if it might be a bit "lightning in a bottle", they definitely worked for it.

Goblins.... I stumbled upon it when going through the webcomic forum 'bout a year ago, and it seemed interesting. Read most of it in about a week, during holidays. Now, I check here every week or so to see if there's a new page, but the glacial pace doesn't exactly keep me invested. Additionally, there's little to no presence of it on the larger web, almost no public communication from the artist (which is certainly understandable to a degree), and the storyline is... mature isn't the right word, but grimdark enough that I don't see many studio's pick it up without either being certain of a big existing audience, or enough changes to make it more palatable for one. Finally, any studio worth their salt would want to know whether they actually get a finished story, to which the answer would likely be "no". I enjoy(ed) the comic, but if I ran a studio, I wouldn't take a chance on it that'd involve any economical risk on my side.

----------


## smuchmuch

> Viv's same-universe foray is far more successful AND has 7 additional episodes past the pilot.
> 
> And even has Richard Horvitz as the voice of a main character.
> 
> Hazbin didn't take off, IMHO, because the premise was extremely self-limiting.  The pilot made it clear that -nobody- was seeking redemption.


Didn't pick up ?  Have you seen the amount of views and all ? It was ridiculously well recieved considering it's flaws.
Also didn't it get a contract with tv network A24 I believe ?
I think if anything the success of Helluva boss (who did turn out to be a lot better than anyone could have expected from the trailer, wy more character focuss and good wrtting, I have to say) is only building hype for more Hazbon Hotel. (Weither or not it does happen... that's something else...)

But we're getting away from goblins....




> Goblins.... I stumbled upon it when going through the webcomic forum 'bout a year ago, and it seemed interesting. Read most of it in about a week, during holidays. Now, I check here every week or so to see if there's a new page, but the glacial pace doesn't exactly keep me invested. Additionally, there's little to no presence of it on the larger web, almost no public communication from the artist (which is certainly understandable to a degree), and the storyline is... mature isn't the right word, but grimdark enough that I don't see many studio's pick it up without either being certain of a big existing audience, or enough changes to make it more palatable for one. Finally, any studio worth their salt would want to know whether they actually get a finished story, to which the answer would likely be "no". I enjoy(ed) the comic, but if I ran a studio, I wouldn't take a chance on it that'd involve any economical risk on my side.


Agreed. I dodn't see Goblins working much as a series. Not sure who the target audience would be except diehard fans of the comics and maybe people who really love 1rst edition D&D and grimdark. (yet still kinda cartonny, which seriously limits the audience). It's not funny enough to be a comedy and too slow paced to be an action show. It'd need sompe serious rewriting to be made into a show, taked a very different dirrection from the comics, i think.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Agreed. I dodn't see Goblins working much as a series. Not sure who the target audience would be except diehard fans of the comics and maybe people who really love 1rst edition D&D and grimdark. (yet still kinda cartonny, which seriously limits the audience). It's not funny enough to be a comedy and too slow paced to be an action show. It'd need sompe serious rewriting to be made into a show, taked a very different dirrection from the comics, i think.


Given the current push in D&D about race and alignment I absolutely see a niche for a story about Goblins rising up to become PCs and fighting back, and the much harder edge of Goblins could also help set it apart from a lot of other current D&D related media. It's like Goblin Slayer but this time it's the Goblins turn! The only large issue is that it is very 3.5 centered but that kind of thing could I think be shifted a bit without losing much if they could find a way to help Vorpal keep making sense. Well for a certain value of make sense. That just make a movie. It will flow better with this plot

----------


## Traab

The thing that bothers me is that, as written, it would probably last all of a season to reach the current point in the story. At least with GoT we had enough material that it was worth working through the published material even with an unfinished series. With how Goblins is, it would be like running out of written material when ned stark got killed. Just enough stuff to drum up interest, then nothing left to keep it.

----------


## Vinyadan

> The thing that bothers me is that, as written, it would probably last all of a season to reach the current point in the story. At least with GoT we had enough material that it was worth working through the published material even with an unfinished series. With how Goblins is, it would be like running out of written material when ned stark got killed. Just enough stuff to drum up interest, then nothing left to keep it.


If I recall correctly, LaMarr talked about 10 or 12 episodes. If it's 20 min episodes as it's frequent with animation, I'm not sure of how much comic would fit in. However, an episodic format needs something to happen every episode, so some things would be heavily compressed: the first episode could fully comprise the player's attack to the Goblin camp, and end with the goblins becoming PCs, because it's the story's premise. The second episode could be Vorpal disappearing and the Orc swamp. And so on.

----------


## Anteros

A bigger problem is how you would even split up the plot threads.  Dies Horribly's plot seems to have nothing to do with the others, so do you just cut it?  Do you bring the main plot to a grinding halt to include it like they did in the comic?  Same thing for the Maze of Many, although at least that one led back into the actual plot.  The pacing in this comic is *bad* and I don't just mean the update speed.  You'd have to majorly rework everything to make it work on screen.  Which isn't even close to the comic's biggest problem.  You'll simply never get a main stream publisher to sign up for the amount of torture-porn and gore that Goblins contains.  Another way you'd have to rewrite things.

----------


## Traab

> If I recall correctly, LaMarr talked about 10 or 12 episodes. If it's 20 min episodes as it's frequent with animation, I'm not sure of how much comic would fit in. However, an episodic format needs something to happen every episode, so some things would be heavily compressed: the first episode could fully comprise the player's attack to the Goblin camp, and end with the goblins becoming PCs, because it's the story's premise. The second episode could be Vorpal disappearing and the Orc swamp. And so on.


I dunno, I think the first episode could be all the silly stuff the goblin warcamp and minmax and crew are up to before the attack. We get introduced to the main characters in a fairly organic manner, we get the setup for the goblin camp meetup, and learn the personalities of everyone. Its a bit D&D joke heavy, so that might be an issue.

----------


## smuchmuch

> Given the current push in D&D about race and alignment I absolutely see a niche for a story about Goblins rising up to become PCs and fighting back, and the much harder edge of Goblins could also help set it apart from a lot of other current D&D related media. It's like Goblin Slayer but this time it's the Goblins turn! T


As a theme, 'fantasy from the point of view of the monters', sure. In fact given how many anime did it, there's certainly some market for a D&D western cartoon, for sure. but the storry of Goblins, as it is written in this comics ? Not without some severe rewriting. The story points are all over the place, there's a lot of character and .. uh well at this point the story got pretty far from the original theme didn't it ? 
 This used to be about "Goblins become Pc, perspective get shifted". Even the Die horribly stuff did sort of tied to a genral storry because it was all about the ogue goblin clan who wants revenge on the humans, so it brewed up to a conflict betwee humans and goblins... 
And then now everyhting is about.. stopping a demon lord from turning the world into hell on earth ? With a whole arc for Minimax and Forgtath in the Maze of Many thing. A bunch of stuff happened all over the plce and while it does all connect together, I suppose, it's still feel extremly disjointed since everyone left brassmoon city.

(Also the obsession with 1rst edition style style dungeons with riddles, puzzles and traps so some of which so weird and out of the blue that it makes the tomb of horror downright down to earth in comparaison. I know at this point it's kind of part of the style of the comic and it did give some really creative stuff (Mr Fingers or the fightong you future/past selves being great examples) but it /is/ a part of what make the pacing of the story so slow, I feel.)

So yeah to work as a cartoon, the entire thing would likely have to be rewritten from the ground up, IMO. Streamlined a lot at the very least.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

I'm pretty sure the animated show would be an original story unrelated to the current comic storyline. Different universes are already established from the maze of many, so this could just be an alternate universe that maybe never entered the maze to begin with, and is going through different steps and stories.

----------


## BaronOfHell

> New page https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-18-2021
> 
> I think it's a nice one.


This (page 18) was the last reference to a new page/comic I could find.

Page 19 is up, but it says it is from before the year change, hence you might already have read it.

----------


## Vinyadan

I have to ask, why can the Gargoyle hear just fine, but cannot see, in spite of having eyes, but no ears (those look like horns to me)?

----------


## Kantaki

> I have to ask, why can the Gargoyle hear just fine, but cannot see, in spite of having eyes, but no ears (those look like horns to me)?


Might be blind. At least that's the first thing that comes to mind.

----------


## Keltest

> I have to ask, why can the Gargoyle hear just fine, but cannot see, in spite of having eyes, but no ears (those look like horns to me)?


I assumed they couldnt see because Big Ears' head was in the way.

----------


## Anteros

> I assumed they couldnt see because Big Ears' head was in the way.


They established that he couldn't see anything when they found him.

----------


## tomaO2

> This (page 18) was the last reference to a new page/comic I could find.
> 
> Page 19 is up, but it says it is from before the year change, hence you might already have read it.


The "2021" refers to when it was released on her patron, not on her website. The first early look was posted on Dec 29th on patron (with normal being posted on Jan 1st, and high res on Jan 4th), but it definitely was not up on the website before Jan 1st. Hmm, why post a high res and a normal res version on Patron? Should just be the high res, with the normal being posted on the website, in my opinion. Who would want to look at the normal res when you can look at the high one?

----------


## Draconi Redfir

probably the high res version can't be hosted on the website due to compression issues, Patreon might have a better hosting source, or maybe you download the high-res image onto your own computer. I got download links for uncoloured comics back when that was happening.

or maybe it's just a reward thing for higher tier donors. that's a valid thing that many artists do.

----------


## tomaO2

I think I might be done with this comic. I'm going to have to seriously think about how I am feeling for the next while. I've been really upset with Elli for a lot of things, and I thought my opinion of Elli had gotten as low as it possibly could after she deleted all the Tempts Fate comics, but I was wrong. I have now broken to the point of feeling contempt. 

When you start openly talking on twitter about how you are cheating on your wife, the woman that has fully supported you in every aspect of your life, for well over a decade, and have the nerve to play it off as an empowering act of being trans... Well, it's really hard for me to keep disassociating the artist from the art at that point. I'm not quoting, or linking, what was said, cause I'm not sure if it is allowed or not, but it's exactly what I said. Cheating on the wife in order to have "an important moment in discovering my sexuality".

Sorry, suddenly being bisexual doesn't mean you can have a bunch of affairs with all the men that you missed out on when you were young.

I don't care how Danelle was convinced to allow this, but the woman has been an absolute rock for this... GOBLIN... for years and years, and now is being openly cucked? I can't even.

How can someone post this stuff, when trying to get a studio deal for an animation? Anyone that a company is interested in will be checking your social media profile. Who would want to deal with someone that acts like this in public? It's a public relations nightmare. 

EDIT: 
It's being posted on twitter, so there has to be consent, but if it had been open before now, then Elli would have said something about it. Clearly, it being an "open" relationship is a new development, and I don't want to know what level of emotional manipulation went into getting Danelle to agree to this.

----------


## Cygnia

...maybe they agreed to an open marriage...?

Not that I'm an Elli cheerleader or follow the twitter in question, but it is a possible option.  However, if the wife isn't consenting to this, then yeah, mudsling away.

----------


## Fyraltari

Why do you care who Elli has sex with? Even if if her wife wasn't aware, which I doubt because because why would she post something she'd want secret on Twitter, that's between the two of them.

Edit: Like, you've made it pretty clear that you think she's some kind of con-artist and loathe her for it, which makes sense to me. What I don't get is why extra-martial sex seems so much worse to you, that _that's_ the line for you.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Clearly, it being an "open" relationship is a new development, and I don't want to know what level of emotional manipulation went into getting Danelle to agree to this.


Do you have any proof that it being an agreed polyamorous/open relationship is a new development? Do you have any proof that Danelle was emotionally manipulated into this? 

After scrolling through a month of Twitter I can't find anything to base these assumptions on, and I don't know Twitter well enough to make digging through it anymore not make me want to scream. So she's had her first sexual experience with a cis man, eh, it's up for her to share as much as she wants. But nothing I can find that suggests they weren't in an open or polyamorous relationship beforehand, or that her spouse isn't having her own partners. As long as it's always been consensual there's no problem with it.

----------


## Keltest

Man, I remember when this thread was for talking about the comic.

If you hate her that much, why are you even looking at her twitter?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Man, I remember when this thread was for talking about the comic.


There's a comic!?

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I think I might be done with this comic. ...
> I don't care how Danelle was convinced to allow this, but the woman has been an absolute rock for this... GOBLIN... for years and years, and now is being openly cucked? I can't even.


You've clearly been 'done' with this comic since forever. You've been hate-watching the thing, hoping for it to fail/fall/disappoint to validate your enmity* towards the author. It's been flagrantly obvious the whole time. Also, did you just un-ironically use the term 'cuck?' 
*which seems odd since your initial primary complaint -- the undelivered product -- is a clearly valid complaint and one that exists completely independently to whether the ongoing comic is great or horrible, wildly successful or a failure, etc.



> Even if if her wife wasn't aware, which I doubt because because why would she post something she'd want secret on Twitter, that's between the two of them.


That's pretty much it. You don't discuss an elicit affair on a public social media venue. 




> But nothing I can find that suggests they weren't in an open or polyamorous relationship beforehand, or that her spouse isn't having her own partners. As long as it's always been consensual there's no problem with it.


Wild conjecture, but what Elli's transition has put the two of them in the position where they both love each other and want to stay married, but no longer look at the other person and see someone they find sexually attractive?

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> If you hate her that much, why are you even looking at her twitter?


Pretty much what I'm wondering.

{Scrubbed}

Personally what Elli does in her personal life is of no concern to me, it's her life and all, not mine.

----------


## Radar

> If you hate her that much, why are you even looking at her twitter?


I think it is appropriate to quote rabbi Twerski here: _Harboring your resentment is allowing someone you don't like to live inside your head without paying any rent._

By all means a solid lesson to learn.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}


I'm not even go so far as to say it isn't welcome. I'd just say please don't fool yourself into thinking that the rest of us don't see exactly what is going on.

----------


## Keltest

> I'm not even go so far as to say it isn't welcome. I'd just say please don't fool yourself into thinking that the rest of us don't see exactly what is going on.


I'm with Draconi. If you want to criticize her business practices, i personally am not interested but the comic is her business so its your right to talk about it. {Scrubbed}

----------


## Dragonus45

Looks like a complex situation, I don't follow twitter stuff so I'm trying to learn all this at once going though backlogs. I hope things are ok between them and all of this is above board. Frankly most polyamory is even if it comes into a previously monogamous relationship, but I've seen how this specific situation looks when it isn't and it can be ugly. For all she can't handle her IP or money for **** Eli has always seemed to want to try and be a good person and partner so I'm throwing her the benefit of the doubt here.

:EDIT:
Oh boy that sure is twitter account I can't read at work. I'm not gonna bother digging too much deeper then the stuff we see here which all seems fine and dandy if _way_ more information then I ever wanted in my life about Eli and her sex life.

----------


## Typewriter

Just wanted to throw in real quick that I sometimes check Ellis twitter to see if there are any updates posted anywhere. The last update on the site was by Danielle 1.5 years ago. The last update by Elli herself was 2.5 years ago. Every now and then something comic related will show up on one of her two twitters so I check there. Just pointing this out since some people are wondering why people who are interested in the comic, but not Elli, would be looking at her twitter.

{Scrubbed}

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Just wanted to throw in real quick that I sometimes check Ellis twitter to see if there are any updates posted anywhere. The last update on the site was by Danielle 1.5 years ago. The last update by Elli herself was 2.5 years ago. Every now and then something comic related will show up on one of her two twitters so I check there. Just pointing this out since some people are wondering why people who are interested in the comic, but not Elli, would be looking at her twitter.


the messages in question were posted only on the second twitter account Elli_Trans, this account has 0% to do with Elli's career and from what I'm aware is more of a personal space for exploring her new identity, NSFW stuff, and things that are related to that. it's only EllipsisGoblins (her first twitter) that contains any Goblins-related content. So unless you were specifically looking for information on Elli herself, there would be no reason to visit Elli_Trans as someone only interested in the comic.

----------


## Lurkmoar

Glad to have that heads up. Sometimes it's useful to check an artists Twitter feed to see what's up.

----------


## Vinyadan

There's a lot of things I'd feel like saying, and most are rather incomplete.

One is that the trans twitter feed is fundamentally the amazingly open diary of a sexual life. And it's a pretty wild and surprising ride, from barely covered nude selfies, to talk of a long distance submissive (what?  :Small Big Grin: ), to this giddy narration of a sexual encounter. And I have to say, for it being about a world and a lifestyle very alien from mine, it's surprisingly well-written. The recount of this little affair with a dude actually had a very comedy-like feel; I couldn't help but laugh while reading it, not in a derisive way, but because the language itself is somewhat deliberately paradoxical in its explanation (the direction of the penis, for example: that it's good if it's pointing towards you, and it was bad when it was pointing out of you, is a description of the trans experience I had never read, and it's surprisingly clear).

And then I think about how the writing of Goblins has gone downhill compared to its beginnings, and how private writing has instead gotten better and better (there was a now deleted fundraiser pitch in the blog that really impressed me back then). And I wonder, is it possible that the author just isn't anywhere near Goblins, as far as mood is concerned? I mean, here is a giddy account, enthusiasm, and a lot of hope for the future. On the other hand, we have a comic where everything is dark to the point of stupidity, the characters have a very limited emotional palette, and the GAP members are mostly extremely jaded (Thac0 is extremely cold at times), even just because, if they took the time to talk about all the crap happening to them and giving it the weight it deserves, that would be a dozen pages of dialogue. And the story was written a long time ago, and pages are hard to draw...

So I wonder if, artistically speaking, it wouldn't be better to just ditch Goblins and write private memoirs. Something like that guy "Diabetes with Owls", David Sedaris. He writes diaries all the time, then selects the most important stuff and publishes them as books.

It's also that the trans feed feels better written than similar experiences I occasionally read about in the press. I've often felt some disconnect between text and style in these cases, and now I think it's because editors can't help but inject gravitas into whatever they can get their hands on (which also explains why I couldn't bring myself to read Randall Munroe's articles on the NYT: his style is all about levity, but the articles were clearly edited by someone who didn't understand that). But I don't think gravitas has much to do with sex.

It's also true that I'm talking about this whole thing as something literary, which means that I don't actually assume or care about whether this a faithful account of something that did happen. This could also be a little erotic game, a moment of fantasy put into writing. It's on twitter, whose point is the lack of filter. Which means no editors, no censors, but also no fact-checkers.

Now, about the whole wedlock deal... while I know that there's an oversharing addict at work here, the idea of unwittingly confessing an extramarital affair like this makes me die from laughter, almost as much as the idea of an erotic comic with Goblins art. It's just so out there, it feels like a parody.

----------


## SaintRidley

> the messages in question were posted only on the second twitter account Elli_Trans, this account has 0% to do with Elli's career and from what I'm aware is more of a personal space for exploring her new identity, NSFW stuff, and things that are related to that. it's only EllipsisGoblins (her first twitter) that contains any Goblins-related content. So unless you were specifically looking for information on Elli herself, there would be no reason to visit Elli_Trans as someone only interested in the comic.


Yeah, I just checked to see if there was an update because I noticed new posts in here and silly me, that can never wind up being the case. Instead someone's pitching a fit after going to Elli's personal, non-business twitter account and seeing that Elli tweeted some thoughts and feelings about her first time with a cis guy and proceeded to choose to read it as the worst possible scenario (cheating, etc.).

Like, I get thinking the comic kinda sucks at points or is incohesive and way too slow to update. I get thinking Elli has absolutely zero business sense or know-how for marketing her IP. I get those, and those make sense to bring here because they relate to the comic. But even sticking to those subjects, there's no reason to attack Elli personally over them (and I've seen more than enough of that). And completely unjustifiable is digging into her personal life and using it to attack her further.

Unrelated, I'm looking at Elli's selfies and am really hoping I can see similar levels of results from hrt when I start.

----------


## Dragonus45

You know, I agree in general that this is much ado about nothing and I also agree the authors personal life isn't very important to the work... but oh boy is it funny to me when people want to apply that standard in such uneven ways.

----------


## Anteros

> Pretty much what I'm wondering.
> 
> {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
> 
> Personally what Elli does in her personal life is of no concern to me, it's her life and all, not mine.


We have been through this many times at this point, but you are not the arbiter of what is or is not welcome on this thread.  I'm not sure why you keep trying to act as though you are.  

I do think that if the current discussion continues that this thread will end up locked though.  Maybe that's for the best though.  It's not as though we talk about the comic.  There's barely a comic to talk about anyway.  It's just Elli's personal life and whatever new scam project she comes up with to con her readers out of their money.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> We have been through this many times at this point, but you are not the arbiter of what is or is not welcome on this thread.  I'm not sure why you keep trying to act as though you are.


Sorry for wanting to keep the thread actually on topic i guess? :Small Confused:  You wouldn't want me going into the "Microsoft acquires Activision Blizzard" thread and start going off about the lifespan and mating habits of Mantatees now would you?

{Scrubbed}

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Sorry for wanting to keep the thread actually on topic i guess? You wouldn't want me going into the "Microsoft acquires Activision Blizzard" thread and start going off about the lifespan and mating habits of Mantatees now would you?.


To be fair, unless Microsoft's leadership has changed massively since I last checked, it's not really similar. More like wandering into the Girl Genius thread and asking if Phil Foglio is going to go back to making NFSW comics 

Also, at least for the current line of discussion I'm not seeing much toxicity. Sure it started because of it, but most of the discussion has been civil.

----------


## Anteros

> Sorry for wanting to keep the thread actually on topic i guess? You wouldn't want me going into the "Microsoft acquires Activision Blizzard" thread and start going off about the lifespan and mating habits of Mantatees now would you?
> {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}


Most of the "toxicity" you're talking about is just pointing out the author's actions.  If simply pointing out someone's actions seems like an insult....well that should tell you everything you need to know.  And yes, in general if the author of a comic comes out and makes their personal life public, then talking about it is fair game.  In general I feel that people deserve their privacy...until they choose to forgo it.  The thread is about the Goblins comic and all things pertaining to it.  Maybe if Elli gave us more positive things to talk about then the thread would be more positive.  

Personally, I couldn't care less about Elli's personal relationships.  I can see why other people might talk about them though when the author brings them up though.  I can also also see why people might take a cynical view towards things when you consider the complete and utter self-centeredness and unwillingness to take personal responsibility for every other aspect of their life that we're aware of.  It's not like we have anything else Goblins related to talk about.  That would require Elli to actually work on the comic.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Most of the "toxicity" you're talking about is just pointing out the author's actions.


{Scrubbed}

----------


## Morgaln

> {Scrub the quote,scrub the post}


There's a lot of middle ground between "Ellipsis Stephens is a terrible person" and "don't talk about the author's actions, ever."
Knowing about the author's actions can absolutely be on topic in that it makes people aware of the kind of person she is and whether they want to support the comic or not (either financially or just by reading it). It might not be interesting to you personally, and some of it isn't interesting to me either (I care nothing about her sexual escapades), but that doesn't mean this isn't the right place to discuss the matter.
I for my part am glad that there is a place where criticism of Ellipsis' actions can be voiced in a mature way (with the appropriate pushback when it is unfounded). That is far from an "Ellipsis Stephens is a terrible person" thread; such a thread does exist somewhere else and it is a transphobic hellhole that I left in disgust a few years ago. Believe me, the criticism here is nothing like that.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}





> We have been through this many times at this point, but you are not the arbiter of what is or is not welcome on this thread.  I'm not sure why you keep trying to act as though you are.






> There's a lot of middle ground between "Ellipsis Stephens is a terrible person" and "don't talk about the author's actions, ever."


This is true, however there is also a middle ground between Draconi Redfir saying "that's just not welcome" and them being the "the arbiter of what is or is not welcome on this thread." Maybe not as much as there could be. I think some simple reframing could salvage this in a way that a long, drawn-out urination match won't. Draconi, do you agree that Ellipsis' personal life and potential foibles is something _you specifically and personally_ do not find welcome in this discussion of the comic, rather than some clear and obvious universal truth or forum rules you think would be broken by staying on the sub-topic? I'm assuming your "that's just not welcome" has a silent, 'I feel that...' before it, instead of a 'I have declared that...' that I think Anteros is seeing.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Draconi, do you agree that Ellipsis' personal life and potential foibles is something _you specifically and personally_ do not find welcome in this discussion of the comic, rather than some clear and obvious universal truth or forum rules you think would be broken by staying on the sub-topic? I'm assuming your "that's just not welcome" has a silent, 'I feel that...' before it, instead of a 'I have declared that...' that I think Anteros is seeing.


{Scrubbed}

----------


## Keltest

{Scrubbed}

----------


## Dragonus45

> {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}


So she is sort of broadcasting it quite literally to the public. I agree with you in general that this is a huge nothingburger of a complaint (since I don't see any actual evidence or implication that Eli is cheating or abusing her wife because if she was that would be totally fair game to at least talk about and discuss) but saying it's a violation of privacy when she really _explicitly_ is not keeping much of anything private feels like a stretch.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> So she is sort of broadcasting it quite literally to the public.


on her personal twitter. this is not her personal twitter. I'm fine with talking about my obsessive BIONICLE collection in my room, but the moment you take that and start talking behind my back about it to a bunch of people i don't know in a shopping mall on the other side of the country without my consent, that is taking things too far.

----------


## Dragonus45

> on her personal twitter. this is not her personal twitter. I'm fine with talking about my obsessive BIONICLE collection in my room, but the moment you take that and start talking behind my back about it to a bunch of people i don't know in a shopping mall on the other side of the country without my consent, that is taking things too far.


That... is a really strange line to draw but I guess it's yours to draw for yourself. I will say I find it especially hard to draw lines with Goblins because Eli, chronic sharer that she is, and her personality and health both mental and otherwise and just her overall constant general out of comic presence is fairly deeply present in every aspect of the fandom and it's conversations. Eli talks about herself to us constantly to us her fans so of course we have always talked about her when there isn't comic to talk about. I get that you have been frustrated on multiple levels and I share some of that frustration but like I said, feels like an arbitrary line to draw here.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> That... is a really strange line to draw but I guess it's yours to draw for yourself. I will say I find it especially hard to draw lines with Goblins because Eli, chronic sharer that she is, and her personality and health both mental and otherwise and just her overall constant general out of comic presence is fairly deeply present in every aspect of the fandom and it's conversations. Eli talks about herself to us constantly to us her fans so of course we have always talked about her when there isn't comic to talk about. I get that you have been frustrated on multiple levels and I share some of that frustration but like I said, feels like an arbitrary line to draw here.


{Scrubbed}

----------


## Morgaln

> on her personal twitter. this is not her personal twitter. I'm fine with talking about my obsessive BIONICLE collection in my room, but the moment you take that and start talking behind my back about it to a bunch of people i don't know in a shopping mall on the other side of the country without my consent, that is taking things too far.


Does this apply to everyone? Like, t{Scrubbed}? News anchors? Football players? Actors? If any of these say something on a public channel, are we not allowed to talk about it because those people are not present? If those are different, where do you draw the line and why?

----------


## Draconi Redfir

> Does this apply to everyone? {Scrub the quote, scrub the post}? News anchors? Football players? Actors? If any of these say something on a public channel, are we not allowed to talk about it because those people are not present? If those are different, where do you draw the line and why?


With all due respect I'd rather not answer this question as i feel it might touch too close to the "no discussing real world politics / religion" rule.

----------


## Willie the Duck

Thank you for the clarification, Draconi. You are advocating a course of action, not declaring yourself arbiter of what is allowed (just arbiter of what you'd like to see, which is true of us all). I feel comfortable saying that I respect your position while disagreeing with certain parts of your acceptable line (I agree that this isn't especially relevant to the webcomic, but also think Elli is making this public). 




> {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}


Scrubbed I'm not sure, though, what I think about whether their initial intentions should determine whether the discussion is acceptable or not. Intention-based ethics is an iffy one at best. 

tl/dr: I see no point in continuing the increasingly irrelevant discussion of Elli's personal life, but am not sure where I'd stand on the ethics of doing so.

----------


## Typewriter

> the messages in question were posted only on the second twitter account Elli_Trans, this account has 0% to do with Elli's career and from what I'm aware is more of a personal space for exploring her new identity, NSFW stuff, and things that are related to that. it's only EllipsisGoblins (her first twitter) that contains any Goblins-related content. So unless you were specifically looking for information on Elli herself, there would be no reason to visit Elli_Trans as someone only interested in the comic.


I don't follow twitter that much at all so this is a bit out of date but at the 'start' of the two accounts she would regularly post Goblins related things to the 'personal' account. As a result if I checked the main account and found nothing I would check the other and see something mentioning the comic. Maybe the division is more solid than it used to be - but as a result of my early experiences with it I tend to check both accounts when curious about the state of the comic. That being said I don't do so very often because there's almost never anything in either location of any relevance to the comic. Personally I think that Twitter is a terrible medium for providing updates to people. I like the way that the Giant does it where it's literally almost nothing else besides updates and those updates are provided directly on the site itself.

----------


## Dragonus45

> I don't follow twitter that much at all so this is a bit out of date but at the 'start' of the two accounts she would regularly post Goblins related things to the 'personal' account. As a result if I checked the main account and found nothing I would check the other and see something mentioning the comic. Maybe the division is more solid than it used to be - but as a result of my early experiences with it I tend to check both accounts when curious about the state of the comic. That being said I don't do so very often because there's almost never anything in either location of any relevance to the comic. Personally I think that Twitter is a terrible medium for providing updates to people. I like the way that the Giant does it where it's literally almost nothing else besides updates and those updates are provided directly on the site itself.


Yea the division between the two feels more like Eli wanted to keep the NSFW stuff in it's own corner more then she was that determined to keep the streams totally separate in general. Also



> Personally I think that Twitter is a terrible medium ...


This sums up everything and all of it.

----------


## Daywalker1983

> Yea the division between the two feels more like Eli wanted to keep the NSFW stuff in it's own corner more then she was that determined to keep the streams totally separate in general. Also
> 
> 
> This sums up everything and all of it.


It's also the case that Elli Herself started the goblins discussion thread, not without mentioning Personal Details like how she is treading water finacially with her Kids on her shoulders. 

We also routinely talk about the authors whithin the context of their works. The idea that we shouldn't is wild to me. I cringe at naming elli in the same breath, but can you talk about the Catcher in the rye without talking about Salinger? About Lotr without Tolkien? Sword in the stone and TS White. Martin and Rothfuß not to mention.

----------


## Daywalker1983

> So she is sort of broadcasting it quite literally to the public. I agree with you in general that this is a huge nothingburger of a complaint (since I don't see any actual evidence or implication that Eli is cheating or abusing her wife because if she was that would be totally fair game to at least talk about and discuss) but saying it's a violation of privacy when she really _explicitly_ is not keeping much of anything private feels like a stretch.


Wonder how her Kids feel about that Twitter. I have an online Persona and a Kid, too. And i try to Do nothing which would harm my Kid. This is not about elli personally, but content like hers should be behind age Verifikation. Since it's not and she is putting it out there, it's in no way at all private. You go on Twitter to be talked about. It would not work otherwise. And of course it's relevant to the Comic. Every author ever had his Personal circumstances Analysed with regard to their work.

----------


## Pirate ninja

*Modly Roger:*

Please do not continue to discuss what topics are allowed/appropriate on this forum or in this thread. If anyone is concerned that a post is contrary to our rules, please report it.

----------


## Draconi Redfir

With that said, i think I'm going to officially abandon this thread for good. This place has just gotten too hot for me. Best wishes to anyone who remains, but I'm out.

----------


## Vinyadan

The first page of the year is up. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-1-2022

----------


## Traab

That was interesting, ears and minmax should hang out more.

----------


## Radar

> That was interesting, ears and minmax should hang out more.


I got the same thought. :)

----------


## Daywalker1983

I think the Angel thing is a bit cringy.

----------


## Dragonus45

I mean, a gargoyle's disembodies soul trapped in a screaming face pried from the flesh of the abomination that devoured it hitting on Big Ears is kind of just part for the course in this comic.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I mean, a gargoyle's disembodies soul trapped in a screaming face pried from the flesh of the abomination that devoured it hitting on Big Ears is kind of just part for the course in this comic.


I mean, Big Ears is part angel now, the gargoyle isn't necessarily hitting on him.

Yet. I'm sure it'll be confirmed on a month or two.

----------


## Kantaki

I mean, even _knowing_ the "angel" thing's entirely literal and Big Ears is just using the gargoyle's name, those two are definitely flirting.  :Small Tongue: 

Also, "I literally can't see what you're doing." and "Don't do that." work great together.  :Small Big Grin: 
Had a hunch indeed.  :Small Amused: Those two are so a couple...

----------


## Vinyadan

To be honest, if I ever met a disembodied soul trapped in the ripped scalp of a cursed zombie paladin and it had such a mellifluous tone, I'd immediately assume it's a bad guy in disguise, biding its time to betray us.

I wonder if it's going to be Klik 2.0: not fully human, but unwaveringly loyal and useful. Klik however joined Dies in a moment of extreme tension and saved his life twice the same day. This guy is just starting to be useful, after almost two years since he joined the party.

----------


## Anteros

> To be honest, if I ever met a disembodied soul trapped in the ripped scalp of a cursed zombie paladin and it had such a mellifluous tone, I'd immediately assume it's a bad guy in disguise, biding its time to betray us.
> 
> I wonder if it's going to be Klik 2.0: not fully human, but unwaveringly loyal and useful. Klik however joined Dies in a moment of extreme tension and saved his life twice the same day. This guy is just starting to be useful, after almost two years since he joined the party.


Well, it's still the same day though isn't it?  It's not the character's fault that the pacing is awful.  My personal belief is that this character was inserted into the story with the sole purpose of giving Ears a boyfriend.  They're more useful in a characterization sense than a practical one.  

I also find the angel thing to be cringe, but people use cringe inducing pet names for each other all the time, and Elli has never been great at writing dialogue anyway.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Well, it's still the same day though isn't it?  It's not the character's fault that the pacing is awful.  My personal belief is that this character was inserted into the story with the sole purpose of giving Ears a boyfriend.  They're more useful in a characterization sense than a practical one.


I just thought of the practical application of a disembodied head as Ears's boyfriend, and I can't stop laughing at the scene. 

Add to this the weirdness factor of it being Kore's body.

----------


## Gez

> I just thought of the practical application of a disembodied head as Ears's boyfriend, and I can't stop laughing at the scene. 
> 
> Add to this the weirdness factor of it being Kore's body.


Are you saying that they shouldn't go _ahead_ with that relationship? That there are a number of troublesome issues they would have to _face_?

----------


## Vinyadan

> Are you saying that they shouldn't go _ahead_ with that relationship? That there are a number of troublesome issues they would have to _face_?


I think that, if they went _ahead_, then Ears would likely have his _hands full_.

----------


## Gez

> I think that, if they went _ahead_, then Ears would likely have his _hands full_.


Are you implying they wouldn't stand on equal _footing_? Certainly it'd be hard for them to see _eyes to eyes_.

----------


## tomaO2

Alright, good thing I didn't bother looking at this thread after making my previous post until now.

If you don't think it's a big deal, then fine. I do. For all my complaints, I've been a consistent reader of this comic since the end of book 1, and even spent some money on it, which I almost never do. I was extremely bothered by the removal of the Tempts Fate comics, and these recent actions leave me soured to the point where I have no interest in reading the new update. 

That's new. That is absolutely a new thing for me. After giving this a lot of thought, I've decided to delete Goblins from my reading list. Maybe this will be my last post in this thread as well. Certainly, I have no interest in talking about the comic anymore, so that only leaves me talking about Elli, herself.

I criticize where I feel it's due, but I also am willing to give praise. I've been willing to give praise for the updates every 2 weeks that lasted for much longer than I ever expected. I fully expected the updates to slow down within 3 months, but it kept going for quite awhile. If the mega trailers had been released to the public, I would have also given that some credit as well. I also was willing to defend Elli, and even apologize when I felt I needed to. I made a post back in the day when Elli replied to me in in a previous version of the thread. I don't remember the exact details, but I do recall saying "I don't hate you" at the time, because I didn't. 

As for the criticism that the "private" twitter should not be talked about, all I should need to point out that there used to be an update on the comic, asking for a lot of money for face surgery. I was the one that announced it here that the surgery was finished. *I found out about this from Elli's trans twitter account.* Regardless, you certainly would not be able to find out about what happened on Goblins, because she deleted the post after she got the money she asked for. Thanking people, and telling them how the money was spent, doesn't seem to be her thing anymore. 

I am pretty sure that is the incident that got me to start checking her trans profile. Feel free to correct me though. Most of it is not relevant, so I don't talk about it, even though there were a number of things that honestly bothered me. 

An example of when I _did_ talk about her tweets is when I learned about Elli attacking Scarlett Johansson for trying to play an LGBT character. Meanwhile, Elli hired a straight actor to play Big Ears for the trailer, and the reason for the entire casting was so that bigger names could help promote it. Which is exactly what why Scarlett was hired for the lead role in the first place, and why the movie was scrubbed when she left the role due to the criticism, because no one wanted to have the lead be played by an unknown.  

There is also the fact that the "private" twitter is linked on the comic twitter. Is there any real separation between the two when the profile of each links to each other? Plus, there are occasional trans posts on the comic twitter, so it's not like there is some perfect separation going on. Elli has consistently posted her private life to the public, we had to listen about many personal things, and this is literally the first time I have EVER heard anyone saying that all these things she puts out there on social media isn't fair game. So, to me, it just seems using the argument now is just trying to smother criticism. 

Whatever, I'll just complain somewhere else.

----------


## Kish

As I said once before, toma, you have a habit of mixing and matching legitimate criticisms ("Elli bashed another movie for doing exactly what she did for her own trailer, hypocrisy") with "yeargh this isn't what I think of as normal" (in this case, "She had sex with someone else while being married? That's cheating! No I don't care if her wife thinks so!") complaints.

----------


## Vinyadan

I couldn't help but think of Forgath talking about rocks when reading this new Lackadaisy minicomic.

http://lackadaisy.com/exhibit.php?exhibitid=544

https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/11142015-2

----------


## Dragonus45

> I couldn't help but think of Forgath talking about rocks when reading this new Lackadaisy minicomic.
> 
> http://lackadaisy.com/exhibit.php?exhibitid=544
> 
> https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/11142015-2


That's a comic I haven't thought about in forever. Did the pace up updates ever pick up?

----------


## Vinyadan

> That's a comic I haven't thought about in forever. Did the pace up updates ever pick up?


Not really, but they're doing...

...*trumpets and fanfare*...

an animated short film!  :Small Big Grin:  Which I really want to watch.

----------


## Radar

> I couldn't help but think of Forgath talking about rocks when reading this new Lackadaisy minicomic.
> 
> http://lackadaisy.com/exhibit.php?exhibitid=544
> 
> https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/11142015-2


Thanks for reminding me of Lackadaisy - almost forgotten about it. :)

----------


## Quild

New page.

I somehow remember something about MM saying the Magic axe obviously wasn't for Ears since he already broke one  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Keltest

> New page.
> 
> I somehow remember something about MM saying the Magic axe obviously wasn't for Ears since he already broke one


Well, Int usually is a safe dump stat for paladins.

----------


## Daywalker1983

Well, Looks a like all those overpowered magical items are about to be purged. Bad news for magical limbs, too, i guess.

Another artificial hurdle in this dumbgeon.

----------


## Quild

> Well, Looks a like all those overpowered magical items are about to be purged. Bad news for magical limbs, too, i guess.
> 
> Another artificial hurdle in this dumbgeon.


Knowing what the trap does, I doubt they will simply walk into it now.
Also I suspect the coloured rectangles on the wall can change what is ffzworped.

----------


## Steven

> I mean, Big Ears is part angel now, the gargoyle isn't necessarily hitting on him.
> 
> Yet. I'm sure it'll be confirmed on a month or two.


*Spoiler: Gargoyle Spoilers from Twitter*
Show

https://twitter.com/ellipsisgoblins/status/1244384997076688897 We know the gargoyle is going to get a new body because we've already seen it. Also, although I can't find the tweet, I'm pretty sure it was stated that they're A: asexual and b: a love interest for Ears. They're also apparently the first character added to the story since it was all planned out back in the mists of time.


Edit: Also I hate this comic. Ears has never been that bright compared to some of the goblins, but this is MinMax levels of dumb.

----------


## Dragonus45

There is a real logic to it, using something enchanted and presumably not as easy to just destroy as something normal would be. And ultimately it may have saved more items then it lost since a false positive with the rocks could have destroyed so much more.

----------


## Androgeus

> this is MinMax levels of dumb.


Minmax would have tried to throw his sword through and then got in an argument with his future self for taking his sword again.

----------


## Steven

> There is a real logic to it, using something enchanted and presumably not as easy to just destroy as something normal would be. And ultimately it may have saved more items then it lost since a false positive with the rocks could have destroyed so much more.


This could be the case. But based on the fact that Ears just didn't think of picking up a rock I don't think it can be argued that he was using logic to approach the situation.
Besides, if you were actually going to approach this in a logical manner you would start with something worthless, and then test it with more valuable things, not throw the first thing that comes to hand through it.

It has absolutely given the GAP a chance to avoid more costly losses, but IMO it's pretty bad writing to use Ears being stupid to get them that opportunity when I can't think of a single other example of him being this thick before.

----------


## Cygnia

And more needless wangst~!

https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-3-2022

----------


## Dragonus45

I wouldn't call it needless, it's actually some good character stuff and the specific dilemma feels more real then others.

----------


## Quild

The poking was funny.

I wonder what would happen if the axe went through the wall.
- Destroyed, no bridge?
- Destroyed, there's a bridge, but in an anti-magic field, which is a problem for demons?
- Destroyed, there's a bridge, no issue for demons?

----------


## Fyraltari

My learning editing is starting to pay off, my first thought on reading the second panel was: "wow, this dialogue could use a good trimming."

----------


## Anteros

> My learning editing is starting to pay off, my first thought on reading the second panel was: "wow, this dialogue could use a good trimming."


I don't think you have to be an editor to realize that Goblins is unnecessarily wordy.  That's been a common complaint for years.   :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Radar

> I don't think you have to be an editor to realize that Goblins is unnecessarily wordy.  That's been a common complaint for years.


Even the best writers need a good editor.  :Small Wink:

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Wordiness aside, it was good bit of character development. Absurdly-Lawful-Good Ears encounters a situation that his morality cannot encompass, and he lets a friend down. It's a reminder that Ellipsis does good characterization, when the story is sufficiently far enough away from the gratuitous suffering.

----------


## BaronOfHell

New update, and much sooner than I expected!

Page 4 2022

----------


## Fyraltari

That was a really good page.
Well, except for the background being mostly a gradient.

----------


## Traab

Moral quandaries are fun ways to test a paladin character, so long as they arent being used as catch-22s to make them fall or something. Its an interesting moral debate here, between the two is killing a person on their request or is leaving them stuck in a small chunk of stone possibly in danger of being enslaved again the worst option? You can even reframe the question in a few different ways and see if it changes your opinion.

----------


## mucat

https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-5-2022

Wait.  This is...not soul-crushingly bleak!

Nicely played, Ellipsis!

----------


## Fyraltari

*Spoiler*
Show

So, they shove Kore through this and it resurrects everybody he's wearing? That sounds too clean and easy.

----------


## Kantaki

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> So, they shove Kore through this and it resurrects everybody he's wearing? That sounds too clean and easy.


*Spoiler*
Show

I mean they'd probably end up merged into a horrifying blob of flesh, constantly screaming in pain-and still part of Kore's body -but they'd be resurrected, sure.  :Small Amused:  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Traab

Thats the first time ive laughed at the comic in some time. And yes, the shocking reveal at the end was pretty awesome.

----------


## sihnfahl

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I mean they'd probably end up merged into a horrifying blob of flesh, constantly screaming in pain-and still part of Kore's body -but they'd be resurrected, sure.


So an amalgamate?

----------


## remetagross

I have honestly no idea why Complains is supporting the idea that goblins are inherently magical creatures. Besides, even if they had the [Magical beast] type or something like this, they're not _objects_.

----------


## Gez

> I have honestly no idea why Complains is supporting the idea that goblins are inherently magical creatures.


They are fairytale creatures. Just like elves and dwarves and gnomes and kobolds and ogres and giants and pixies and nixies and pookas and leprechauns and so on.




> Besides, even if they had the [Magical beast] type or something like this, they're not _objects_.


Yeah, the last thing I'd want to do with a Thuntian dungeon is bet my life on semantics. Generally the safest way to proceed isn't to cross the magical field blocking the threshold, but to dig a tunnel through the wall and never, ever use the doors.

----------


## The Glyphstone

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I mean they'd probably end up merged into a horrifying blob of flesh, constantly screaming in pain-and still part of Kore's body -but they'd be resurrected, sure.


*Spoiler*
Show

I'm not sure that is Thuntian (Ellipsian?) enough. They'd be screaming because resurrecting them doubled the amount of agony they suffer, giving them flesh to be wracked with unimaginable pain on top of the spiritual/mental agony they were already enduring from being chained to Kore. The amalgamated abomination would be a huge, continually shifting mass of meat sprouting and absorbing limbs and faces at random, guided by Kore sitting at the very center and using the resurrectees as living weapons and armor. Anyone grabbed by the amalgamate could be swallowed alive and absorbed, becoming another of Kore's prisoners without even needing to kill them first.

----------


## Mastikator

> I have honestly no idea why Complains is supporting the idea that goblins are inherently magical creatures. Besides, even if they had the [Magical beast] type or something like this, they're not _objects_.


TBF Complains and Big Ears probably _are_ magical creatures, one has demon blood coursing through his veins and the other has angel horn grafted to his body.

----------


## Lacco

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I'm not sure that is Thuntian (Ellipsian?) enough. They'd be screaming because resurrecting them doubled the amount of agony they suffer, giving them flesh to be wracked with unimaginable pain on top of the spiritual/mental agony they were already enduring from being chained to Kore. The amalgamated abomination would be a huge, continually shifting mass of meat sprouting and absorbing limbs and faces at random, guided by Kore sitting at the very center and using the resurrectees as living weapons and armor. Anyone grabbed by the amalgamate could be swallowed alive and absorbed, becoming another of Kore's prisoners without even needing to kill them first.


*Spoiler: Not Spoiler*
Show

I'd also expect it would hurt. Like sickness.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Vinyadan

New page. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-6-2022

*Spoiler*
Show

Besides the obvious, damn, is Thac0 tired. He's been getting more and more jaded since he entered the dungeon. First the way he bandaged Ears, now he doesn't manifest any joy or surprise, just resignation. I wonder if the comic considers this mood a temporary state (the fight with Names would be a decent reason, and it still needs a solution) or if it's just his personality now.

----------


## Keltest

> New page. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-6-2022
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Besides the obvious, damn, is Thac0 tired. He's been getting more and more jaded since he entered the dungeon. First the way he bandaged Ears, now he doesn't manifest any joy or surprise, just resignation. I wonder if the comic considers this mood a temporary state (the fight with Names would be a decent reason, and it still needs a solution) or if it's just his personality now.


*Spoiler*
Show

Hasn't Thaco been a grumpy old man since forever?

----------


## Vinyadan

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Hasn't Thaco been a grumpy old man since forever?


*Spoiler*
Show

I think that there are many layers to his personality. On one hand, he was Chief's mirror image: a loremaster and an authority figure. On the other hand, he had a history of self-sacrifice for the good of the clan. He also had PTSD from his time with Goblinslayer, so, while he was braver than Chief, he still had to overcome his fears to act in Brassmoon. Overall, he definitely didn't lack emotion and showed that he cared for others. So it's a bit odd that the grumpy side is the only one to react (with the target-oriented one, I guess).

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> New page. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-6-2022
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Besides the obvious, damn, is Thac0 tired. He's been getting more and more jaded since he entered the dungeon. First the way he bandaged Ears, now he doesn't manifest any joy or surprise, just resignation. I wonder if the comic considers this mood a temporary state (the fight with Names would be a decent reason, and it still needs a solution) or if it's just his personality now.


Considering this comic's pacing, I'm glad we went straight to Plush's reveal instead of spending a comic watching everyone be confused. Thac0's characterization took a ding, but that's fine.

Anyway, prepare for awkwardness, fellow readers.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Morgaln

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I think that there are many layers to his personality. On one hand, he was Chief's mirror image: a loremaster and an authority figure. On the other hand, he had a history of self-sacrifice for the good of the clan. He also had PTSD from his time with Goblinslayer, so, while he was braver than Chief, he still had to overcome his fears to act in Brassmoon. Overall, he definitely didn't lack emotion and showed that he cared for others. So it's a bit odd that the grumpy side is the only one to react (with the target-oriented one, I guess).


The problem with Thaco is that his story is over. His arc was facing his past with Goblinslayer and getting over that trauma and fear. He did that in Brassmoon. Ever since, he hasn't had his own story, and thus he is reduced to being the straight man the other goblins bounce their shenanigans off of. That requires him to be the grumpy old man to provide a contrast to Ear's compassion, Complains' brashness and Vorpal's optimism. He's got nothing else going for him that would allow him to show other aspects of his personality and is kind of just tagging along.

By rights, it should have been Thaco who died at the bridge, since Chief's story was anything but over. Of course that would have required the story to go down a bit of a different way; the battle on the bridge eliminated both clerics from the party (quite deliberately, I imagine) to enable the lol-pearl incident. But since the whole requirement for Complains to become chief and Vorpal to become fortune teller were pulled out of thin air the moment they became necessary, it wouldn't have been difficult to account for Chief to be present.

----------


## Vinyadan

> The problem with Thaco is that his story is over. His arc was facing his past with Goblinslayer and getting over that trauma and fear. He did that in Brassmoon. Ever since, he hasn't had his own story, and thus he is reduced to being the straight man the other goblins bounce their shenanigans off of. That requires him to be the grumpy old man to provide a contrast to Ear's compassion, Complains' brashness and Vorpal's optimism. He's got nothing else going for him that would allow him to show other aspects of his personality and is kind of just tagging along.
> 
> By rights, it should have been Thaco who died at the bridge, since Chief's story was anything but over. Of course that would have required the story to go down a bit of a different way; the battle on the bridge eliminated both clerics from the party (quite deliberately, I imagine) to enable the lol-pearl incident. But since the whole requirement for Complains to become chief and Vorpal to become fortune teller were pulled out of thin air the moment they became necessary, it wouldn't have been difficult to account for Chief to be present.


That's right, I guess. I thought that Ears also could have died at the bridge. He's already more or less complete, and he's always had a tendency towards self-sacrifice. In a way, I feel that the pain for his death would have been more immediate, because he always was good and funny, and lived up to his ideals. His sacrifice could have given Chief a huge reason to strive to be a better goblin and a better leader (which he did become in canon, but his sacrifice was useless and it's a pity that he only revealed his new colours in a single scene that didn't show a better understanding of his subjects). If Ears died, I could see Chief hardening after the axe broke, and slowly coming to grasp that he is the leader of the only known party that could tackle the demon problem.
Even the bit with the Angel could have been left: give Complains a prophecy that he will be a great chief. It opens tension for Chief's fate, and Complains has to start meditating and looking for examples, maybe even competing with Chief, only to learn that he has to understand people to be able to lead.

It still would leave Thac0 without much to do, though.

----------


## Daywalker1983

In other news, plush is the newest member of Team magical limb replacement, only for him it's a complete body. Guess we are lucky it's not... Solid.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> In other news, plush is the newest member of Team magical limb replacement, only for him it's a complete body. Guess we are lucky it's not... Solid.


Considering their growing romance I hope Big Ears isn't disappointed he's not hard.  Although the lack of genitals might be the bigger problem.

----------


## Anteros

Is it weird that Plush is giving me real "furry" vibes?  Somehow in a comic full of goblins, half snakes, and people with magical colorful body modifications his design still looks weirdly artificial and out of place.

----------


## Kantaki

> Is it weird that Plush is giving me real "furry" vibes?  Somehow in a comic full of goblins, half snakes, and people with magical colorful body modifications his design still looks weirdly artificial and out of place.


So it's not just me?

Well, to be fair, his body _should_ be made from rock, gargoyles being living statues, so it might be intended?

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Is it weird that Plush is giving me real "furry" vibes?  Somehow in a comic full of goblins, half snakes, and people with magical colorful body modifications his design still looks weirdly artificial and out of place.


Well, that literally is the point of this little sub-arc (thus far a few panels long) -- Plush is supposed to be made out of a granite-like body, but instead is made of 'repulsive' skin and muscle and bone. He's supposed to look 'off.' That said, I think I get what you mean, except it's also happening to Ears in the last panel with them together -- the art subtly shifted towards... 'manga romance story' (?) lines and colors. I guess I'd have to see some of the other goblins in that purple-to-red room to see if I think they also have that slight change or if it is simply the background that feels different.

----------


## Anteros

Well, it's less that it looks odd in a "this is an artificial creature and looks off" way and more of a "this is my Sonic the Hedgehog erotic fan fiction character slapped into the Goblins universe"

Then again...given that this whole character basically exists due to Ellipsis exploring her sexuality and inserting it into the comic....that's kinda exactly what it is.

----------


## Cygnia

Or, now that they're flesh & blood, Plush can now be even more horrifically tortured and abused like the rest of the cast... :Small Yuk:

----------


## Vinyadan

Yep, it's due to many things: looking at panel 7, AFAIK he's the only character have his first appearance naked (with the exception of Kliks and nude females in erotic hallucinations; even K'seliss had a blanket), the eyes are tender (he's feeling vulnerable), and the way he's apparently holding his arms behind his tighs makes it look like he's offering his unprotected body in spite of his vulnerability.

In particular, his eyes remind me of a comic strip I once saw about how Batman would look, if he really were meant to appeal to women, with the male character finally saying that he was uncomfortable with the image.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> In particular, his eyes remind me of a comic strip I once saw about how Batman would look, if he really were meant to appeal to women, with the male character finally saying that he was uncomfortable with the image.


That would be Shortpacked.

I remember when it came out. Caused something of a stir.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Yep, it's due to many things: looking at panel 7, AFAIK he's the only character have his first appearance naked (with the exception of Kliks and nude females in erotic hallucinations; even K'seliss had a blanket), the eyes are tender (he's feeling vulnerable), and the way he's apparently holding his arms behind his tighs makes it look like he's offering his unprotected body in spite of his vulnerability.
> 
> In particular, his eyes remind me of a comic strip I once saw about how Batman would look, if he really were meant to appeal to women, with the male character finally saying that he was uncomfortable with the image.


I might use that page in other online discussions.

As thanks, and in case you don't already know it:

*Spoiler: Here is what happens when you swap Batman and Catwoman around*
Show

----------


## Anteros

I'm not sure "comic books are targeted towards teenage boys" is the groundbreaking revelation that it's being made out to be by the internet.  Lots of different forms of media have different target audiences.  There's nothing inherently wrong with it.  

Catwoman is a terrible character though, and I wish the trope she represents would die off.  You could slap her mannerisms on just about anybody and it would look unnatural.  Imagine Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, or any stoic female character acting like that.  It's just as jarring.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I'm not sure "comic books are targeted towards teenage boys" is the groundbreaking revelation that it's being made out to be by the internet.  Lots of different forms of media have different target audiences.  There's nothing inherently wrong with it.


The thing is, that statement isn't really that true. It's true for the big mainstream names, but at least today there's comic books aimed at everybody, I'm fairly certain early comics had a broader audience, and comics aimed at adult men have had specific branding to decades. That's not even getting into non-US comics, the UK has a strong tradition of humour comics aimed at somewhat younger children (although sadly I think all except The Beano have died).

Even then you can aim things at teenage boys without the sexualisation issues. Fullmetal Alchemist pretty much nails it despite so many characters having idealised physiques (although it was written and drawn by a woman).

----------


## Fyraltari

> I'm not sure "comic books are targeted towards teenage boys" is the groundbreaking revelation that it's being made out to be by the internet.  Lots of different forms of media have different target audiences.  There's nothing inherently wrong with it.


Demographics do not excuse fetishization or any other bad qualities.

Besides, like Anonymouswizard said, comic books aren't just for teenage boys and, I would add, should not be.

----------


## Anteros

Comic books in general don't have to be targeted towards teenage boys, but the ones that you're complaining about?  Are.

As far as "fetishization" or whatever....plenty of people would argue that there's nothing inherently wrong or unhealthy about sex or sexually provocative characters. If you don't enjoy those things....well you've already pointed out that there are plenty of other options.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Comic books in general don't have to be targeted towards teenage boys, but the ones that you're complaining about?  Are.
> 
> As far as "fetishization" or whatever....plenty of people would argue that there's nothing inherently wrong or unhealthy about sex or sexually provocative characters. If you don't enjoy those things....well you've already pointed out that there are plenty of other options.


Mainstream US comic books have a distinct tendency to have highly sexualised women but not men (because the men are a power fantasy and the women are a sex fantasy).

But you're right, there's nothing wrong or unhealthy with sex or sexual characters. But a person or work can have an unhealthy attitude towards it. This doesn't have to be sexually provocative characters, it can also be things like promoting 'you're not a man if you don't have sex' or glorifying the idea of '**** and forget'.

And yes, you could probably write multiple essays on the Bond films and problematic attitudes towards sex.

I struggle with this myself, I keep bouncing back and forth between the main character in a book I'm trying to write being asexual or pan, and when pan how to write her having what's essentially a one night stand without straying anywhere near fetishisation or being too graphic for a story aimed at 14 year olds (mostly by accident, the MC's a transwoman* in her mid 20s).

Nobody's saying that sexualisation of characters needs to be completely removed, but there's a somewhat sexist undercurrent.

It's all in the intent and presentation. I remember seeing a children's film with nonsexualised breasts, The Adventures of Adele Blanc-Sec (I believe it's based on a French comic). The main character has a bath and her chest is visible in some shots because they realistically would be, but it's not erotic. It's just a lady who's naked because she's climbed into a tub of water with the intent to relax and wash.

* Oh and that's another entire can of worms. I'm working on including elements that make it as clear as possible without having an awkward 'she's trans okay' moment.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Mainstream US comic books have a distinct tendency to have highly sexualised women but not men (because the men are a power fantasy and the women are a sex fantasy).


Men in comic books are, and pretty much always have been, wildly sexualized. It just presents differently. Clothes make the man ETC...

----------


## Anteros

> Men in comic books are, and pretty much always have been, wildly sexualized. It just presents differently. Clothes make the man ETC...


Plus anyone who's ever read a Spider-man book could tell you that he spends most of his time basically naked with his legs spread and his butt in the air.  

There was actually a bit of an uproar a while back where some artists had their female characters striking the same poses as Spidey as an homage, and the internet acted predictably.

----------


## Vinyadan

That one was especially funny, given that the author was Milo Manara, probably the greatest living author of erotic comics, and a recognized author of art comics, to boot. What can I say? Marvel sure knows its target audience and how to manufacture outrage for free publicity.

----------


## The Glyphstone

And there's always the Hawkeye Initiative tumblr, redrawing Clint in the often contorted poses and postures that heroines get.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> And there's always the Hawkeye Initiative tumblr, redrawing Clint in the often contorted poses and postures that heroines get.


*One Google later*

That's both hilarious and entirely accurate.


As for the 'men are sexualised too' thing, eeeeeh. Nowhere near as much as the women, and the sexualisation is not the point. It's more about power than titillation, and while those can go hand in hand they don't have to. The same physique and power that says 'Christian Grey is coming to **** you' can, and often is, used to say 'Christian Grey is strong, isn't that cool'.

If Goblins is going to use Plush to sexualise the male physique I have no issue with it. Big Ears clearly likes what he sees.


Also serious question. Is there a major superhero who regularly gets as much focus on his sexy bum as superheroines do?

----------


## Fyraltari

> Mainstream US comic books have a distinct tendency to have highly sexualised women but not men (because the men are a power fantasy and the women are a sex fantasy).
> 
> But you're right, there's nothing wrong or unhealthy with sex or sexual characters. But a person or work can have an unhealthy attitude towards it. This doesn't have to be sexually provocative characters, it can also be things like promoting 'you're not a man if you don't have sex' or glorifying the idea of '**** and forget'.


I think it comes down to framing and characterisation. Are the readers supposed to ogle or relate to the characters? How much of a personality do they have beyond "the sexy one"?

There's nothing wrong with playing up the sexiness of a character from time to time, but it shouldn't be the main thing about them, and it's better to do that with characters of different genders rather than just always the women. And as always the execution matters more than the "on-paper".





> I struggle with this myself, I keep bouncing back and forth between the main character in a book I'm trying to write being asexual or pan, and when pan how to write her having what's essentially a one night stand without straying anywhere near fetishisation or being too graphic for a story aimed at 14 year olds (mostly by accident, the MC's a transwoman* in her mid 20s).


Obviously can't give practical advice without reading the text and that would break forum rules, but I figure it's important to stay close to your protagonist's point of view and emotions: what she feels, physically yes, but mostly emotionnally, hesitation (if any) giving way to desire, excitement and finally pleasure. External point of views often end up feeling voyeurish while internals feel more relatable and empowering.




> It's all in the intent and presentation. I remember seeing a children's film with nonsexualised breasts, The Adventures of Adele Blanc-Sec (I believe it's based on a French comic).


It is and it's quite a trip. Pteeodactyles, Neanderthals, opera-singers-dressed-as-demons and Adèle doesn't care for this nonsense. The woman just wants to go home, smoke and drink booze. Was the movie intended for children? I don't remember, and the comic certainly wasn't. (Not because of anything sexual, but it's a moody, somewhat cerebral comic, it's clearly aimed at adults).




> The main character has a bath and her chest is visible in some shots because they realistically would be, but it's not erotic. It's just a lady who's naked because she's climbed into a tub of water with the intent to relax and wash.


There's nothing quite like rewatching _Kirikou_ as an adult and realising this beautifully animated movie you last saw at age seven is full of bare-chested women* and you didn't care, because you were a little child.




> Men in comic books are, and pretty much always have been, wildly sexualized. It just presents differently. Clothes make the man ETC...


They're (mostly) not sexualized. They're generally presented as something thenreaders should aspire to be, not lust after. This is especially obvious in American superhero comics, but is also generally true everywhere else.


*It is based on a West-African legend and set in precolonial West-Africa, different standards of clothing.

Edit:



> Also serious question. Is there a major superhero who regularly gets as much focus on his sexy bum as superheroines do?


From what I heard, DC's own Nightwing at least comes close.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> IIt is and it's quite a trip. Pteeodactyles, Neanderthals, opera-singers-dressed-as-demons and Adèle doesn't care for this nonsense. The woman just wants to go home, smoke and drink booze. Was the movie intended for children? I don't remember, and the comic certainly wasn't. (Not because of anything sexual, but it's a moody, somewhat cerebral comic, it's clearly aimed at adults).


I don't know, it's at least rated as suitable for them. It's been years since I saw it, but I certainly think it had nothing problematic in it.

I'll definitely see if I can dig out the original comic

----------


## Cygnia

Seconding Nightwing

----------


## Vinyadan

I think a certain sexualisation of male superheroes is also typical of movies. Their audience is meant to be much larger than that of the comics, so you have to please the ladies with naked Wolverine Jackman springing out of a pool, or various abs shots.

----------


## Traab

I love the difference body language makes. Both male and female heroes are dressed identically. As in they are nude models wearing body paint in a way that suggests a costume. Thats literally what the majority of the "spandex" set are. Totally naked, barring maybe a belt or something. Gotta have pouches to hold misc after all. And despite ednas fervent objections, often they have capes.  Everything else? Body paint on naked ken and barbie dolls.

----------


## Radar

> I love the difference body language makes. Both male and female heroes are dressed identically. As in they are nude models wearing body paint in a way that suggests a costume. Thats literally what the majority of the "spandex" set are. Totally naked, barring maybe a belt or something. Gotta have pouches to hold misc after all. And despite ednas fervent objections, often they have capes.  Everything else? Body paint on naked ken and barbie dolls.


I guess this was all to make the superheroes easy (and by extension cheap) to draw. Spandex is as simple as it gets - no wrinkles or any distinct features that you would need to think about so after drawing a rough silhouette you are already done. Capes seem to go against it, but they are the easiest way to convey motion or add some dramatic flair to a given pose. Also, since the cape is only loosely attached to the wearer, you can draw it without thinking much about a given pose the character makes.

----------


## Vinyadan

I think it was a mix of many things, like showing how unique the hero was in a world that wore mostly ties. Plus they can be easily concealed beneath normal clothes, and they give a nice feeling of freedom when the hero sheds his clothes to become ____man. I'm not sure that drawing an almost nude man is easier than drawing clothed one, however, but it's true that some old comics I have seen had some problem conveying creases, sometimes reducing them to black spurts of ink.

----------


## Gez

> It's all in the intent and presentation. I remember seeing a children's film with nonsexualised breasts, The Adventures of Adele Blanc-Sec (I believe it's based on a French comic). The main character has a bath and her chest is visible in some shots because they realistically would be, but it's not erotic. It's just a lady who's naked because she's climbed into a tub of water with the intent to relax and wash.


Breasts are a lot less sexualized in French culture than in Anglo-Saxon culture. This is changing {Scrubbed} but traditionally nipples are not considered in French art to be something horrible that children should never be exposed to.

So in French comics you're quite likely to see naked breasts in a non-sexual context. In an American comic, if naked breasts are visible, then it's necessarily a sexualized scene in an adult-only comic...

----------


## Fyraltari

> Breasts are a lot less sexualized in French culture than in Anglo-Saxon culture. This is changing due to American cultural imperialism, forcefully exporting its cultural values through Hollywood and Netflix and Youtube; but traditionally nipples are not considered in French art to be something horrible that children should never be exposed to.
> 
> So in French comics you're quite likely to see naked breasts in a non-sexual context. In an American comic, if naked breasts are visible, then it's necessarily a sexualized scene in an adult-only comic...


I remember laughing my ass off when I learned that the American translation of _Sillage_ turned the white stripe on the protagonist's chest black to serve as a convenient censor box.

With that said, we shouldn't give the impression that breasts (and women) were not sexualized in European comics, they definitely were and are.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Breasts are a lot less sexualized in French culture than in Anglo-Saxon culture. This is changing due to American cultural imperialism, forcefully exporting its cultural values through Hollywood and Netflix and Youtube; but traditionally nipples are not considered in French art to be something horrible that children should never be exposed to.
> 
> So in French comics you're quite likely to see naked breasts in a non-sexual context. In an American comic, if naked breasts are visible, then it's necessarily a sexualized scene in an adult-only comic...


They're also less sexualised in the UK than the US, probably because every time we're not fighting France we're having amorous relations with them. Occasionally we do both at once!

But yeah, the film was shown uncut here but censored for the US. What's inherently sexual varies around the world.

Now if only the French would stop flashing their ankles, we can't be having with that kind of filth!

----------


## Gez

> With that said, we shouldn't give the impression that breasts (and women) were not sexualized in European comics, they definitely were and are.


I did say "less" rather than "not at all".

----------


## Daywalker1983

I find it funny that in a Comic written by a trans woman a gay Character in a ersatzbody enters the World through a roughly vagina shaped opening and complains about squishiness to his future love interest. Layers above Layers, just like an ogre.

----------


## Vinyadan

> I find it funny that in a Comic written by a trans woman a gay Character in a ersatzbody enters the World through a roughly vagina shaped opening and complains about squishiness to his future love interest. Layers above Layers, just like an ogre.


To me, the most striking of these cases is that Kin, the rape victim, undergoes the complete destruction of her lower body and then gains a new, indestructible one. There are three possible aspects I can see: a new, uncontaminated body as a way to solve the feeling of disgust, dirtiness, and contamination often reported by victims; the fact that Kin was partly based on the author's mother, a rape and kidnap victim, and now has an invulnerable lower body; and then bottom surgery.

Another one with possibly autobiographical undertones is the campfire scene with Forgath and Idle talking to each other by the campfire, early in the morning, while Bowst is away. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/11142015-2
Remember the odd part where Idle and Bowst have daily sex and Forgath gets told about it, but Bowst also has to hurt (actually, kill) Idle daily? Danielle was in a previous (reportedly unhappy) marriage. She left Canada, then came back with her husband, and invited a bunch of friend on a camping trip; among those friends was, you guessed it, our webcomic artist, who by then had spent years secretly in love with her. They woke up before the others, and had a chat by the campfire, which was their first time alone together.  https://www.goblinscomic.com/blog/she-said-yes So Bowst could be a version of Danielle's ex husband. (although it's interesting that Ward also might have feelings for her)

----------


## Daywalker1983

> To me, the most striking of these cases is that Kin, the rape victim, undergoes the complete destruction of her lower body and then gains a new, indestructible one. There are three possible aspects I can see: a new, uncontaminated body as a way to solve the feeling of disgust, dirtiness, and contamination often reported by victims; the fact that Kin was partly based on the author's mother, a rape and kidnap victim, and now has an invulnerable lower body; and then bottom surgery.)


One heck of a nice catch there, dude, kudos! 

Now i just wonder if that is intentional... 

Also the second one... I think that is a perfect example about how the authors background informs his writing. The idea that both could be sparated make literary criticism boring to me.

----------


## Vinyadan

New page https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-7-2022

----------


## Willie the Duck

So he's a plushy gargoyle. That's... I don't honestly know. Just kinda random at this point. I suspect we'll find out more about it later.

----------


## Traab

So he is a gargoyle that lacks pretty much anything that makes being a gargoyle special? Neat. No natural armor, his natural weapons are like being hit by nerf foam, hopefully his wings arent too floppy to fly at least.

----------


## PontificatusRex

> So he is a gargoyle that lacks pretty much anything that makes being a gargoyle special? Neat. No natural armor, his natural weapons are like being hit by nerf foam, hopefully his wings arent too floppy to fly at least.


I suspect he and Big Ears will find some compensating side effects of not having a body made of rock.

----------


## Kantaki

So he's a living doll now instead of a living statue*?
Oh, well, it probably beats his previous state.
Also, it could be worse. He could've come out of it with a actual squishy body made from flesh and blood and skin and stuff**.

As is it isn't the worst out come from a random Reincarnation roll. At least he's still gargoyle-oid and not a talking pillow or something. 

As far as body horror goes this is kinda subdued.
Especially for this comic.


*Guy named Plush got turned into a plushy.
I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry.
Depends on if the joke's intentional, I guess. 

**Considering he was attached to a bit of Kore that opens some real nightmare options.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I suspect he and Big Ears will find some compensating side effects of not having a body made of rock.


I mean, maybe? Today's strip kinda communicates that a little mutual attraction doesn't change that they are on different trajectories. 'Hero doesn't get the adventure-presented love interest' is rare enough* that I'd find it pretty cool if Elli sticks to it.
*Off top of head, I can think of _Harry Potter_ and _Pacific Rim_ as recent examples, and not much else.

----------


## sihnfahl

Or, as it boils down to: "How do I live in a body that's not my own, and not what I'm used to?"

----------


## Gez

> *Guy named Plush got turned into a plushy.
> I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry.
> Depends on if the joke's intentional, I guess.


There's no way it's unintentional, and we should have seen it coming ever since the guy got named Plush.

----------


## Dragonus45

> One heck of a nice catch there, dude, kudos! 
> 
> Now i just wonder if that is intentional... 
> 
> Also the second one... I think that is a perfect example about how the authors background informs his writing. The idea that both could be sparated make literary criticism boring to me.


_Her_ mother. 


Also this update was adorable. Nothing much else to be said about it I think.

----------


## Keltest

> _Her_ mother. 
> 
> 
> Also this update was adorable. Nothing much else to be said about it I think.


It kind of read as the opposite to me. "I no longer need to rely on you now so I find I have no interest in being with you or anything you're doing." Which is not an unreasonable reaction given the context, but it's still kind of uncomfortable to take in as basically the first major decision they made.

----------


## Traab

> It kind of read as the opposite to me. "I no longer need to rely on you now so I find I have no interest in being with you or anything you're doing." Which is not an unreasonable reaction given the context, but it's still kind of uncomfortable to take in as basically the first major decision they made.


I mean, not anting to face Kore again is so utterly reasonable its shocking. This poor bugger has spent lord knows how long in subjective time a tormented soul attached to his murderer. And the last thing he would want is to risk going back. That also feeds into his anti day trip to hell stance. He has FELT eternal torment. I dont think him being unwilling to risk it again is unreasonable.

----------


## Dragonus45

> I mean, not anting to face Kore again is so utterly reasonable its shocking. This poor bugger has spent lord knows how long in subjective time a tormented soul attached to his murderer. And the last thing he would want is to risk going back. That also feeds into his anti day trip to hell stance. He has FELT eternal torment. I dont think him being unwilling to risk it again is unreasonable.


Yea and the way that the two of them were clearly kind of into each other but too awkward and distracted by their own things going on to really make a kind of move was the adorable part anyways. I don't think the read of this that Plush was just being manipulative works at all.

----------


## Keltest

> Yea and the way that the two of them were clearly kind of into each other but too awkward and distracted by their own things going on to really make a kind of move was the adorable part anyways. I don't think the read of this that Plush was just being manipulative works at all.


Neither do I, and that's sort of why this is so jarring for me. I think we needed a little time to... catch our breath, I guess before moving onto the "what now" phase.

----------


## Anteros

Considering that the entire furrsona was openly created to be Ear's partner as a way for Elli to explore her sexuality...there's approximately a negative % chance they actually leave.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Yea and the way that the two of them were clearly kind of into each other but too awkward and distracted by their own things going on to really make a kind of move was the adorable part anyways. I don't think the read of this that Plush was just being manipulative works at all.


He was in dire need, and tried to get help from someone nearby as he was blind and compleltely unable to move. Now that he has more agency, he has more choice in what to do. He's acting in self-interest, but in a way that is merely reasonable, and certainly not detrimental to the GAP.

I am in favour of Pawłusz, it's the first time in years I am actually curious about the comic. Beats the angel any day. The whole thing is maybe a bit too mellifluous for my tastes, but even that is something new (MM went from wanting to kill Kin, to being a dumb hero, to being just an idiot, to being a depressed puppy, here the general attitudes seem pretty different).

----------


## Traab

> Neither do I, and that's sort of why this is so jarring for me. I think we needed a little time to... catch our breath, I guess before moving onto the "what now" phase.


Too be fair, the "what now" phase has been deferred till they get out of here. There is still time for minds to change or events to sweep the group away in some manner. Also, we still dont know if Plush can even contribute anything of value to the group other than Ears eye candy. (And dear god this has to be the most obscure and specific preference ever)

----------


## Vinyadan

New page. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-8-2022

----------


## Gez

Yes, cobwebs are from cobs, since cob is just an Old English word for spider.

Yay more random dungeon puzzle bovine droppings. Also more dysphoria from plushy Plush.

----------


## Traab

Oh boy, im wondering, are these magic razor wire webs? If so, this should be fun. Also, I always thought cobwebs was different, basically formed through dust and such gathering together till the weight pulls it down into strands and threads kind of like how icicles form from water dripping and freezing.

----------


## Keltest

> Oh boy, im wondering, are these magic razor wire webs? If so, this should be fun. Also, I always thought cobwebs was different, basically formed through dust and such gathering together till the weight pulls it down into strands and threads kind of like how icicles form from water dripping and freezing.


Mix of both, mostly. Cobwebs are generally used to refer to particularly dusty and untouched spiderwebs.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Oh boy, im wondering, are these magic razor wire webs? If so, this should be fun. Also, I always thought cobwebs was different, basically formed through dust and such gathering together till the weight pulls it down into strands and threads kind of like how icicles form from water dripping and freezing.





> Mix of both, mostly. Cobwebs are generally used to refer to particularly dusty and untouched spiderwebs.


Or, more specifically, a spider had once spun a web, then decided to relocate.  Or was killed.  Or died.  The web stayed behind, and since a spiderweb is sticky, floating dust and debris adheres.  Eventually, all that weight will pull down on the web, giving it that droopy look.

----------


## JeenLeen

Huh.  I though cobwebs were dust that collected naturally into a web-like shape, not abandoned spider webs that got weighed down by dust.
More spiders in my house than I suspected, I guess.

I'm sad to see Vorpal losing his magic staff.  Though as a "unbinds anything" magic item, I can see wanting it to be destroyed lest it become too useful a plot device.  (I've wondered if, if it touches the axe, would it just immediately free the demon?)

----------


## Vinyadan

> I'm sad to see Vorpal losing his magic staff.  Though as a "unbinds anything" magic item, I can see wanting it to be destroyed lest it become too useful a plot device.  (I've wondered if, if it touches the axe, would it just immediately free the demon?)


I am fairly certain that that's how the demon was freed. Ears was fighting Otherside Vorpal. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/03302016-2 

Maybe the crystal conserves the power, and can be carried around.

----------


## Vinyadan

New page https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-9-2022

----------


## remetagross

Man, nice page. I suppose that's what Complains got out of his little encouter with the angel.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Man, nice page. I suppose that's what Complains got out of his little encouter with the angel.


Yeah, we got a glimpse of it back when he first got out...

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Huh, we know that Dub was apparently supposed to unite the various goblin tribes because of her wings. But maybe everybody got it wrong.

It's not the goblin who was born with wings who's destined to do it. It'll be the goblin who earned their wings.

----------


## Daywalker1983

I just saw there is a New blog post... Because elli needs money. I dont know what to think.

----------


## Keltest

> I just saw there is a New blog post... Because elli needs money. I dont know what to think.


Eh. If people are willing to give her money to support her current lifestyle (meaning the starving artist gig, to be clear) thats their perogative. I personally will not, since I dont really want to encourage somebody to double down on something that obviously isnt doing what they need it to do, but thats just me.

----------


## Anteros

> Eh. If people are willing to give her money to support her current lifestyle (meaning the starving artist gig, to be clear) thats their perogative. I personally will not, since I dont really want to encourage somebody to double down on something that obviously isnt doing what they need it to do, but thats just me.


"Starving artist" in the sense that they've received literally hundreds of thousands of dollars from their fans on multiple occasions and constantly squandered it.  She'll keep coming back to that well forever, and fools will keep filling it up.  I don't know exactly what their patreon income is either, but the last time this came up someone mentioned that they were making several thousand dollars per comic released.  

Lack of income has never been Elli's problem.  It's their decision making.  Anything you give her she'll just waste and be back to pan-handling in a few months.  People are welcome to donate their money wherever they want, but I certainly can think of better causes.

----------


## Daywalker1983

I think what gets me is that blog used to be interesting, then neglected a lot and is then remembered when she needs money, that leaves a Bad taste.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Oh wow, this topic again. I thought we were overdue for it. Mostly I just think everybody's pretty much preaching to the choir here.

Two things do pop out at me though:
-4.5k seems like a lot. I don't know how much high end drawing tablets cost, but a quick Google suggests maybe half that. Throw in a couple of hundred for a solid stand as well.
-Maybe I'd give her money at some point if the store wasn't 'coming soon'. I guess selling merch or print collections is too hard.

Like, she's already over the goal, and I know that this is a recurring trend. But I can't help but think she'd find this money stuff easier of she didn't have a sub-Burlew release schedule* or was willing to engage in what is commonly known as 'acceptong other people's money in exchange for items instead of promises'.

More comics, less Twitter boobs! Or more comics same amount of Twitter boobs, I'm not picky.

* And as far as I know her hands are fully functional.

----------


## Anteros

> Oh wow, this topic again. I thought we were overdue for it. Mostly I just think everybody's pretty much preaching to the choir here.


Well, it only comes up when they beg for money for whatever new vanity project they've come up with.  So...yeah.  Every few weeks.

----------


## Typewriter

I don't care that she wants to ask for money for her fans but I hate the fact that the last time the blog was updated was nearly two years ago and that that update was made by her wife. Elli's last update on the blog was in August of 2019. Remove the blog, and have permanent links to her donation streams and twitters.

----------


## Murk

> Mostly I just think everybody's pretty much preaching to the choir here.


I see no problem with an artist asking for donations. I think that's pretty normal. 

_Personally_ I wouldn't approach it the same way as Elli, who waits with asking for money untill it's an absolute emergency.
I understand suddenly needing money for health issues. But I would think as an artist your drawing tool is essential, and this one seems to have been dying for a while. 
So personally I wouldn't have waited until the tablet is dead and gone before asking for emergency donations - I would prefer to do that beforehand. And if I weren't able to get enough people to donate _without_ it being a life-or-death emergency I would reconsider my financial model. That is: if I can't get enough steady income from my art to finance my art supplies, my career in art might not be feasible.

But that's a personal choice. Maybe some people _prefer_ to donate for a clear and urgent cause, rather than just contributing to a steady income. Maybe Elli feels less guilty asking for practical donations. Maybe her career in art _isn't_ feasible but she's not willing to give it up.
All that is fine with me, as long as it works for her and the people donating.

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> -Maybe I'd give her money at some point if the store wasn't 'coming soon'. I guess selling merch or print collections is too hard.


It is both that it would be actual effort and she'd be obligated to deliver whatever was bought or refund the money. Not delivering (or not delivering fully) is kinda one of her things...

----------


## Keltest

Physical merch requires an initial investment into the production of a certain amount of product, and to make ends meet therefore requires a good understanding of how much to make. Its OK if people want 200,000 T-shirts and you only make 100,000 because you can print more, but if you print 100,000 and people only want 10,000 then you have 90k T-shirts you spent money on sitting in a warehouse (which also costs money).

So besides being fraught with possibilities of failure, Ellie almost certainly literally cannot start it in her current financial situation.

----------


## Anteros

Could always do what lots of other small businesses do and....take the orders before you make the product?  

It's not like anyone familiar with the product expects anything Goblins related to be delivered in a timely manner.

----------


## Murk

I thought the hardcopy books were still being sold? 

I might be wrong because I can't find it anywhere. So if they are being sold, they're not sold very well!

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Physical merch requires an initial investment into the production of a certain amount of product, and to make ends meet therefore requires a good understanding of how much to make. Its OK if people want 200,000 T-shirts and you only make 100,000 because you can print more, but if you print 100,000 and people only want 10,000 then you have 90k T-shirts you spent money on sitting in a warehouse (which also costs money).
> 
> So besides being fraught with possibilities of failure, Ellie almost certainly literally cannot start it in her current financial situation.


Oh yeah, it takes more effort than setting up a GoFundMe and writing the world's least engaging sappy blog post. Forget I asked.

----------


## tomaO2

> Oh wow, this topic again. I thought we were overdue for it. Mostly I just think everybody's pretty much preaching to the choir here.
> 
> Two things do pop out at me though:
> -4.5k seems like a lot. I don't know how much high end drawing tablets cost, but a quick Google suggests maybe half that. Throw in a couple of hundred for a solid stand as well.
> -Maybe I'd give her money at some point if the store wasn't 'coming soon'. I guess selling merch or print collections is too hard.
> 
> Like, she's already over the goal, and I know that this is a recurring trend. But I can't help but think she'd find this money stuff easier of she didn't have a sub-Burlew release schedule* or was willing to engage in what is commonly known as 'acceptong other people's money in exchange for items instead of promises'.
> 
> More comics, less Twitter boobs! Or more comics same amount of Twitter boobs, I'm not picky.
> ...


Alright, I'd been debating if I wanted to make anymore posts here, since I don't really care about the comic, but I can fill in the details of the gofundme stuff for people that need a refresher. 

This is her fourth gofundme. The first being the facial feminization surgery in October 2019. That raised around 21k. When she got the amount, she didn't put up a thank you, she just deleted the blog post. The only reason anyone knows that it happened was because she obsessively takes photos of herself, and posts them online.

Within the past year's time, she's done an additional three gofundme drives. Qualifying for bottom surgery was created in November 2021, and didn't get a thank you. The second was helping someone that claimed domestic abuse in January 2022, which did get a thank you on twitter, but no subsequent announcements, which may be important, since she promised updates. Could be she is updating on the gofundme page though. Only donators can see if there is activity, since it got closed. The third is the current one that is asking for a new drawing tablet.  That one... got a thank you on twitter, but not on her blog. All three, combined, have raised around 16k.

She did do an increase of updates to pay for stuff, to the point that we got one once every 2 weeks on average. That lasted for over a year, I think. I stopped keeping track awhile ago. The purpose of that was because she wanted voice feminization surgery but didn't want to ask for more money in a gofundme, since it hadn't been all that long since she got the 21k for the face surgery. I don't think that was mentioned in her blog, just on twitter. As far as I know, she never did end up getting the surgery, as she managed to improve her voice enough on her own, not sure what she spent the extra money on. 

Clearly, Gofundmes have been decided as being the best way to get money. Who needs to draw Tempts Fate? What even is Tempts Fate? No new readers will ever know, since all those donation drives were deleted. 

I really have no idea how often updates come up anymore, since I don't watch the comic, but they seem to be slower. Archives say the previous page was the 8th page for the year? The new one makes 9. Umm, average of one update every 2-3 weeks. That's still honestly pretty good for her. Anything better than once a month, I consider productive for this artist.

----------


## Keltest

> Oh yeah, it takes more effort than setting up a GoFundMe and writing the world's least engaging sappy blog post. Forget I asked.


Now thats just unnecessary. Setting up a merch shop is a genuinely difficult task with a high threshold of catastrophic failure and a pretty significant barrier to entry. Even beyond the skills needed to make it successful, actually starting one requires a significant initial investment, which Elli has flat out said she does not have. Materials to make the stuff dont come free, and if youre outsourcing production, then you are basically buying every single product you plan to have made and hoping you can resell enough of them to make a profit fairly quickly. Its not a trivial thing and its certainly not the magic money handwave you made it out to be.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Now thats just unnecessary. Setting up a merch shop is a genuinely difficult task with a high threshold of catastrophic failure and a pretty significant barrier to entry. Even beyond the skills needed to make it successful, actually starting one requires a significant initial investment, which Elli has flat out said she does not have. Materials to make the stuff dont come free, and if youre outsourcing production, then you are basically buying every single product you plan to have made and hoping you can resell enough of them to make a profit fairly quickly. Its not a trivial thing and its certainly not the magic money handwave you made it out to be.


Maybe I'd be less salty about it if the comic wasn't seventeen years old and promising a merch store that hasn't masterialised. It's also not like there aren't potential ways to raise the capital needed, including a kickstarter (which would also give a rough estimate for quasntities needed).

It's not a magic monetary bullet, but it is something that would make me much more willing to drop money. Especially as I personally struggle to read from screens these days, so I'd be very tempted to buy compilations even if I had to pay extra for print on demand.

----------


## Kornaki

Keep in mind the money you drop is mostly paying expenses, not profit.  Buying a  30 dollar book and donating 5 dollars might be equally useful to elli.

----------


## Morgaln

> Keep in mind the money you drop is mostly paying expenses, not profit.  Buying a  30 dollar book and donating 5 dollars might be equally useful to elli.


However, buying a book and donating send completely different message.s

If I buy merchandise, it's a business interaction. I get something discrete and tangible in return. Elli will (hopefully) make a profit off of the transaction, but the focus is on getting a product. All I'm telling her is "I like this thing that you already created and are willing to spend money on it."

If I donate to Elli, I tell her "I like what you are doing and I want you to continue." It sends the message that I endorse her spotty update schedule, her lack of communication, her tendency to start projects but not finish them and the way she mooches money off her fans. None of these are things I want to support.

Now personally, I would not pay money for merch either, but I can understand that people would even if they don't agree with Elli's shenanigans. I do have a hard time understanding people who donate to her and/or support her GoFundMe's. But clearly there are enough of those to make it work for her.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> I do have a hard time understanding people who donate to her and/or support her GoFundMe's. But clearly there are enough of those to make it work for her.


They like her and are willing to overlook or forgive her flaws. The Twitter accounts might help with that, making it easier to like her, dunno if she has a big audience there. I don't read them. If it seems strange to you that people can still like her after all her history, well, likeability is kinda mysterious. If you like someone, it makes sense to you; if you don't, it often makes no sense that others _do_ like them.

I have a policy of not following creators' social media accounts (barring friends), and boy does it serve me well for this comic. I care about the comic, not the creator. If I was rich I'd toss a couple dollars into the Patreon, but I'd also do that for the two-dozen other comics I follow.

----------


## Keltest

> They like her and are willing to overlook or forgive her flaws. The Twitter accounts might help with that, making it easier to like her, dunno if she has a big audience there. I don't read them.
> 
> I have a policy of not following creators' social media accounts (barring friends), and boy does it serve me well for this comic. I care about the comic, not the creator. If I was rich I'd toss a couple dollars into the Patreon, but I'd also do that for the two-dozen other comics I follow.


This is about where I sit. Boy do I ever regret learning more about a certain webcomic author we are all at least loosely aware of (besides Elli, though I also dont care for how much her personal life affects the comic). As soon as it becomes about a person I cant enjoy the story for being a story.

----------


## Vinyadan

How this is the same person who was more or less flayed by twitter crapstorms and is now making lots of money through social media presence is the most interesting part of the equation to me.

----------


## Anteros

I'm not rich, but I do have a well paying job and I do tend to donate money sometimes.  I prefer to know where it's going.  If someone has a history of suspect behavior, lies, failed promises, or wasting money then I want to know before I give them my money.  Someone who is genuinely doing their best and struggling?  I'm usually happy to donate for a good cause.  Within reason.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Right now I only support projects made by friends, ones that have been important in my life, or ones that I'm passionate about (*coughs* Nature of Nature's Art *coughs*). If I was middle-class, I would also support creative work I consume that's all-around solid, or that I feel is underappreciated. Goblins wouldn't make the cut. But if I was rich, I'd feel like I have an obligation to support (in a small way) _every_ creative work I consume, even ones made by people with a history of wasting money. 

That's just a statement about me. It's not meant to be an implicit suggestion about what others should do.

----------


## Kish

> Huh, we know that Dub was apparently supposed to unite the various goblin tribes because of her wings. But maybe everybody got it wrong.
> 
> It's not the goblin who was born with wings who's destined to do it. It'll be the goblin who earned their wings.


Would that be Big Ears or Complains?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Would that be Big Ears or Complains?


Have we seen Big Ears with wings in their IME yet?

----------


## sihnfahl

> Have we seen Big Ears with wings in their IME yet?


Maybe.  Maybe not.

----------


## Androgeus

> Maybe.  Maybe not.


At a guess the horn permanently affect how Ears's IME manifested, like with Complains and the demonification.

----------


## sihnfahl

> At a guess the horn permanently affect how Ears's IME manifested, like with Complains and the demonification.


That's my take on it.  Just like how Complains got wings and a tail when he became part demon, so too did BE get wings when he became part angel.

And you can only imagine what it'd be like in Hell with that mix.  Paladin soul = YUMMY!  Part Angel?  RIP!

Like ringing a dinner bell AND the invasion bell at the same time.

----------


## Daywalker1983

> Have we seen Big Ears with wings in their IME yet?


Why is it their IME and not his? Im a bit confused about all that pronoun stuff.

----------


## Anteros

> Why is it their IME and not his? Im a bit confused about all that pronoun stuff.


In this instance the uses are basically interchangeable.  I don't believe there was any specific intention behind the phrasing there.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Why is it their IME and not his? Im a bit confused about all that pronoun stuff.


Because by 2030 men will have ceased to exist.

More seriously I've been teaching myself to default to they instead of he, and it's caused some collateral damage in my ability to gender men.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Because by 2030 men will have ceased to exist.

----------


## Anteros

> Because by 2030 men will have ceased to exist.
> 
> More seriously I've been teaching myself to default to they instead of he, and it's caused some collateral damage in my ability to gender men.


Yes well...I never thought I'd get the chance to say this, but please respect my pronouns.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Yes well...I never thought I'd get the chance to say this, but please respect my pronouns.


Shen I remember. There's no gender notification next to posts on mobile, so if I don't have a lot of time it's up to my memory to avoid they.

----------


## Anteros

> Shen I remember. There's no gender notification next to posts on mobile, so if I don't have a lot of time it's up to my memory to avoid they.


I was kidding.  I couldn't possibly care less what you call me.

----------


## Traab

> I was kidding.  I couldn't possibly care less what you call me.


You vacuous, toffee nosed, malodorous, PERVERT!

----------


## Anteros

> You vacuous, toffee nosed, malodorous, PERVERT!


Hey!  My toffee nose is a medical condition.  I can't help it.

----------


## Vinyadan

I have noticed something: Goblinslayer is a passable Disney villain, and, to be more precise, he is Gaston's equivalent. They both are admired hunters who have gained the respect of the populace, to the point of being the biggest guy in town. Both have to face one failure (Belle refuses, Thac0 gets away) and it eats them inside, because they are slaves to their own myth. Also both rile the people against the protagonists, and put stock into creating an "us vs monsters" divide.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I have noticed something: Goblinslayer is a passable Disney villain, and, to be more precise, he is Gaston's equivalent. They both are admired hunters who have gained the respect of the populace, to the point of being the biggest guy in town. Both have to face one failure (Belle refuses, Thac0 gets away) and it eats them inside, because they are slaves to their own myth. Also both rile the people against the protagonists, and put stock into creating an "us vs monsters" divide.


Wow there's a callback. Beats sitting on our thumbs until the next update. 
I never mentally made this exact comparison*, but he certainly seemed to me like a common young adult adventure villain. He has social levers of control, and wants to get the protagonists. Queen of Hearts from _Alice in Wonderland_ has much the same setup, but is only sometimes trying to kill Alice. Captain Hook and Wicked Witch kinda fit, but there are more 'others' out there not aligned with them, so the heroes are not as isolated. I can't think of any obvious better comparisons. The 'getting' of the protagonist is more law&order, but Goblinslayer also makes a pretty decent Javert analog.
*_B&tB_ and the rest of the 90s Disney renaissance was between my animated Disney-watching childhood and my various parenting roles, so I've seen most of them maybe once

----------


## Anteros

Hmm...I must have missed the scene where Gaston imprisoned Belle and regularly forced himself on her.  That's more the Beast's M.O.

I'd say that pretty much all of the main characters are fairly shallow tropes though.  Exceptions would be maybe Fumbles, and Dies.

----------


## Murk

> Hmm...I must have missed the scene where Gaston imprisoned Belle and regularly forced himself on her.


In the Gaston comparison, Belle would be _Thac0_ (the one who got away), not Kin. I don't think Goblinslayer ever "forced himself" on Thac0, though he certainly imprisoned him.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Hmm...I must have missed the scene where Gaston imprisoned Belle and regularly forced himself on her.  That's more the Beast's M.O.


It's possible that we didn't have a chance to see that, because Gaston died first. He certainly didn't know how to take "no" for an answer. He did use bribery to have her dad put in an asylum to force her to marry him if she wanted him freed, so he had already found a socially acceptable way to pull it off.

GS of course seems to operate on a much larger scale than Gaston. Gaston enjoys similar prestige in his small community, but he seems content with his informal power, while GS wants it to be institutionally structured in sight of the polital takeover of a large city.

Also, while Gaston and GS both are slaves to their ambition and myth, Gaston operates on a personal level, while GS imagines himself at the center of a large war between civilizations, humans and sub-humans, and wants to be a myth in both. Which is why, while Gaston pleads for his own life with the Beast, GS wants Thac0 to kill him.

A final observation, which however has more to do with how bad guys rarely die the first time they lose: both Gaston and GS survive defeat, but refuse to change, and so end up killed.

----------


## Kish

Gaston doesn't rape Belle because he's thwarted. Not because he wouldn't. To suggest otherwise is to fundamentally reject...his entire narrative role.

----------


## Willie the Duck

Gaston doesn't rape Belle because it is a Disney movie for kids. He tries to coerce her into marriage, which is a similar role. 

Regardless, I think Murk has the right of it. Goblinslayer plays a different roll for Kin than for Thac0, and Vinyadan was definitely discussing GS in relation to Thac0. The entire rape issue is a non-sequitor (although again what else do we have to do?). The two stories aren't exactly identical, nor do they have to be. Thac0 has both the Belle and the Beast role (and in their movie the dynamic between them is actually the primary story, with the whole Gaston issue a complication), Gaston dies in confrontation with the Beast while GS eventually dies to side-character Kin (in a fight mostly with Forgath and Minmax, who have a complicated relationship with pretty much all the other characters in their story that doesn't well match anything in B&tB). There are a huge number of differences, but I think the basic framing of Gaston and GS being cut from the same cloth is rather interesting and insightful.

----------


## Daywalker1983

> In this instance the uses are basically interchangeable.  I don't believe there was any specific intention behind the phrasing there.





> Because by 2030 men will have ceased to exist.
> 
> More seriously I've been teaching myself to default to they instead of he, and it's caused some collateral damage in my ability to gender men.


All well and good, i am not a native speaker and hearing "their" evokes a Group of people for me.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> All well and good, i am not a native speaker and hearing "their" evokes a Group of people for me.


Singular "they" has been a feature of English since at least 1375. They really need to teach it in English classes.

Singular "you" is much more recent (circa 1600s) but nobody ever complains about it _for some mysterious reason_.

----------


## Anteros

I don't think they're similar characters at all.  Gaston is a blowhard who's so full of himself that he can't even conceive of the idea that someone doesn't want him.  Goblinslayer is an actively malicious monster who rapes and murders for sadistic pleasure.  They're only similar on an incredibly superficial level.

----------


## Radar

> Singular "they" has been a feature of English since at least 1375. They really need to teach it in English classes.
> 
> Singular "you" is much more recent (circa 1600s) but nobody ever complains about it _for some mysterious reason_.


What was used as a second person singular pronoun before you? I am actually really curious. From some Shakespeare texts I would assume "thou", but was there more to it?

----------


## Fyraltari

> What was used as a second person singular pronoun before you? I am actually really curious. From some Shakespeare texts I would assume "thou", but was there more to it?


English used to have a t-v distinction (using different second person singular to refer to someone with regards to how much respect you are expressing) like many indo-european languages. Specifically it used thou for a casual relation and the plural you for addressing someone formally. This usage spread in imitation of French but was a bit inconsistent and then it died out.

----------


## woweedd

> Gaston doesn't rape Belle because he's thwarted. Not because he wouldn't. To suggest otherwise is to fundamentally reject...his entire narrative role.


Yeah. I mean, he wants to force Belle to marry him and I think we can safely assume it's not cutting the wedding cake he's looking forward to...

----------


## Radar

> English used to have a t-v distinction (using different second person singular to refer to someone with regards to how much respect you are expressing) like many indo-european languages. Specifically it used thou for a casual relation and the plural you for addressing someone formally. This usage spread in imitation of French but was a bit inconsistent and then it died out.


So that's where singular you came from! Some languages actually still use the plural form to indicate respect toward a single person. Others on the other hand (like Polish) use singular third person with some sir/madame word for such situations.

----------


## Keltest

> Yeah. I mean, he wants to force Belle to marry him and I think we can safely assume it's not cutting the wedding cake he's looking forward to...


Honestly, it might actually be the act of having married her rather than any... other possibilities. The prestige of being married and being able to show off his wife could well be what he's actually after here rather than any pseudo-affection he thinks he feels.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> This usage spread in imitation of French but was a bit inconsistent and then it died out.


I think you just summed up the English perfectly.




> Honestly, it might actually be the act of having married her rather than any... other possibilities. The prestige of being married and being able to show off his wife could well be what he's actually after here rather than any pseudo-affection he thinks he feels.


Honestly, do we have any evidence that Gaston isn't asexual? This makes so much sense.

----------


## Fyraltari

> So that's where singular you came from! Some languages actually still use the plural form to indicate respect toward a single person. Others on the other hand (like Polish) use singular third person with some sir/madame word for such situations.


I know, mine does. Like I said, this distinction in address is present in many indo-european languages. Romance languages tend to use the second person singulat plural as a respectful second person singular, Germanic languages tend to use a singular third persons, other language families do other things.

----------


## Kish

Gaston told Belle he wanted six or seven boys.

(This argument is so goofy.)

----------


## Fyraltari

> Gaston told Belle he wanted six or seven boys.
> 
> (This argument is so goofy.)


I don't think Goofy wants to rape anyone.  :Small Eek:

----------


## Gez

> So that's where singular you came from! Some languages actually still use the plural form to indicate respect toward a single person. Others on the other hand (like Polish) use singular third person with some sir/madame word for such situations.


More properly, it indicates figurative distance. You use t-form with people close to you (such as friends and family), and v-form for people distant to you (such as coworkers, strangers, etc.).

So it can be (and usually is) a form of respect, but it's not just that. For instance, if you use v-form with someone you're usually close to, it pushes them away in a manner of speaking. Inversely, using the t-form with someone you're usually distant to is a way to get in their personal space, so to speak; so it can be friendly or hostile depending on circumstances.

English lost the t-v distinction but the distinction between formal and informal attitude towards people remain. Think of the cliché of a parent chastising their child by calling them by their complete name , that's kind of the same thing.

----------


## Traab

> Honestly, it might actually be the act of having married her rather than any... other possibilities. The prestige of being married and being able to show off his wife could well be what he's actually after here rather than any pseudo-affection he thinks he feels.


Less prestige and more "This is the only woman to ever reject me. SHE MUST BE MINE!" After all, dude had identical, hot triplets, all draped over him at once. If he wanted to marry to have fame and prestige, that would have been the way to go. He just wanted what he couldnt have. Her rejection of him damaged his world view where he is the big man on campus that everyone loves and admires, when suddenly this one girl just ignores and dismisses him? THIS CANNOT STAND! Had she fluttered her eyes at him and sighed in his direction from time to time, he probably never would have even noticed her, other than occasional mockery for her strange habits like reading and knowing things more complicated than how to do laundry and make him dinner.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Honestly, do we have any evidence that Gaston isn't asexual? This makes so much sense.


I mean, he is absolutely Gaston sexual, and while I do think that in his own narcissistic "how could anyone not want me I'm the handsome hero" way he absolutely would be a sex pest, it feels distinctly different from the way Goblinslayer literally fetishizes and sexualizes the the act of forcefully overcoming rejection. Both are **** people, but they are not the same.




> Less prestige and more "This is the only woman to ever reject me. SHE MUST BE MINE!" After all, dude had identical, hot triplets, all draped over him at once. If he wanted to marry to have fame and prestige, that would have been the way to go. He just wanted what he couldnt have. Her rejection of him damaged his world view where he is the big man on campus that everyone loves and admires, when suddenly this one girl just ignores and dismisses him? THIS CANNOT STAND! Had she fluttered her eyes at him and sighed in his direction from time to time, he probably never would have even noticed her, other than occasional mockery for her strange habits like reading and knowing things more complicated than how to do laundry and make him dinner.


You know, I've always sort of thought that he was actually interested in her. Mostly _because_ she has odd habits and would be a more interesting person then most of the vapid townspeople who drape themselves over him, but he has no possible way to communicate that because a life as a handsome talented moron has left him totally ill equipped to even conceive of rejection, let along how to actually communicate in any meaningful way about it and he could never actually lower himself or allow vulnerability to learn because it would shatter him. It makes for an excellent contrast to the Beast who frankly didn't even seem to want Belle around outside of feeling like he was obligated to take at least someone prisoner over the trespassing, is so completely vulnerable and incapable of dealing with it he like a giant fuzzy bundle of raw nerves rolling in sand, and ultimately does learn how to reach out for help and express his issues honestly to get help.

----------


## Traab

> I mean, he is absolutely Gaston sexual, and while I do think that in his own narcissistic "how could anyone not want me I'm the handsome hero" way he absolutely would be a sex pest, it feels distinctly different from the way Goblinslayer literally fetishizes and sexualizes the the act of forcefully overcoming rejection. Both are **** people, but they are not the same.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, I've always sort of thought that he was actually interested in her. Mostly _because_ she has odd habits and would be a more interesting person then most of the vapid townspeople who drape themselves over him, but he has no possible way to communicate that because a life as a handsome talented moron has left him totally ill equipped to even conceive of rejection, let along how to actually communicate in any meaningful way about it and he could never actually lower himself or allow vulnerability to learn because it would shatter him. It makes for an excellent contrast to the Beast who frankly didn't even seem to want Belle around outside of feeling like he was obligated to take at least someone prisoner over the trespassing, is so completely vulnerable and incapable of dealing with it he like a giant fuzzy bundle of raw nerves rolling in sand, and ultimately does learn how to reach out for help and express his issues honestly to get help.


Im pretty sure that gaston would NOT get along with goblinslayer. He would likely see the guy as far too crude bare minimum. Mainly because while at the barest surface level they might have similar goals, being seen as heroes for protecting their home town, gaston is not the torture maim gore porn fetishist that goblinslayer is. Im honestly unsure how he would view the kin situation. Might consider it disgusting and pointless since the only reason he does it is for his torture porn as both probably have their general pick of willing women if they feel the need. He might even consider it bestiality. She is a monster after all, despite being human intelligent and all. He may just sneer and turn away as he sees more proof the crude bugger needs to get lost but otherwise do nothing about it because "its just a monster"   

As for actually being interested in her, I dont think so. He mocks everything she does that marks her as different. That may be what drew his attention, but her rejection of him and her lack of effs to give for his opinion is what made him obsessed with her. I watched the clip where he "proposes" to her. He shows a total lack of knowledge on what she dreams of for her life, assuming its exactly what he wants, despite the ample evidence he has seen that suggests otherwise. Then proposes they marry right now while he has the entire freaking wedding party waiting outside to get things done. (Which he doesnt even tell her about)

----------


## Vinyadan

> Hmm...I must have missed the scene where Gaston  imprisoned Belle and regularly forced himself on her.  That's more the  Beast's M.O.


Returning to this, the reason why there is some overlap is that Gaston is actually a double of the  Beast. I believe it was a deliberate intention of the writers. «Once  upon a time, in a faraway land, a young prince lived in a shining  castle. Although he had everything his heart desired, the prince was  spoiled, selfish, and unkind.» Gaston is young, strong, beautiful,  admired, skilled, but spoiled, selfish, and unkind.

«Repulsed by her haggard appearance, the prince sneered at the gift and  turned the old woman away, but she warned him not to be deceived by  appearances, for beauty is found within.»

Simply put, the old  woman looks bad. It's about the appearance. She's repelling. The Prince  does not consider any other factor when dealing with her. 

Now,  let's look at Gaston: from the first minute he appears, he declares that  Belle is the only girl as beautiful as he, and that that's why he's  going after her. It's all about exterior beauty. Belle is very active on  an intellectual level: she's curious, investigative, enjoys reading,  and is also caring and supportive towards her father, all things that  make her an outsider in the village, but also constitute her "beauty  found within". And Gaston openly disdains these aspects, repeatedly  covering her books in mud and insulting her father.

 The hot  triplette also shows something about Belle: Belle is an individual. The  triplettes are pretty, but they have lost any aspiration for  individuality and intellectual autonomy; they are a group of three, but  not three different people.

The Beast forces Belle to stay with  him as a bargain for her father's freedom. He then learns to love her,  and lets her go. Gaston then... also tries to force Belle to marry him  through a bargain for her father's freedom! Except she can prove her  father isn't insane through the mirror. Gaston then decides to destroy  his rival. Incidentally, here it seems to me that it isn't really about  Belle, it's about Gaston's need to be the best at everything he does;  someone is thwarting his plan, while showing that he's better than  Gaston at being liked by Belle? He must be destroyed (and it's certainly  important that, by now, Gaston had already started to metaphorically  bargain with the Devil to get what he wanted, from corruption and  unlawful inprisonment, to leading a lynching mob,  shooting a peaceful man in his own home, and figurative and literal  backstabbing).

The Beast in his starting position is an early  Gaston, but bigger: he is powerful, he actually owns the castle, the  people there are his literal servants. As the film moves on, their paths  diverge: Gaston doesn't change his objectives or mentality and,  instead, starts using increasingly evil means. On the other hand, the  Beast, having been proved fallible and being in a very tight spot, has  to accept the advice of his servants (who are older than he is, but who  also have a lot of different personalities, unlike the villagers), gets  to know Belle by engaging with her in discussion, learns from her, and  sees her "inner beauty" to the point that he understands on his own that  what would make Belle happy is a library, and then he is compelled to  let her go to care for her father. 
Gaston admits no weakness, and  it's what turns him into a monster. The Beast instead is forced to show  his fear and vulnerability by desperately hugging the rose when Belle  discovers it. 

About this whole "inner beauty" thing, I liked  that, in the ending, when the Beast turns into the Prince, Belle doesn't  just pounce on this suddenly beautiful young man, and instead examines  his face until in his eyes she finds the trace of the Beast she loves.

In  a way, Goblins also follows the contrast of exterior appearance vs  inner beauty with the monster/human divide. But that's something with  which everyone except Kin and maybe Ears and Thac0 seems to struggle.  Minmax and Forgath start out as killers of monsters, Complains wants to  kill Minmax, Vorpal stabs a child, and then we have all the bad guys  (GS, Kore, Duv). The wide population is openly racist. No wonder evil is  winning... I tried thinking of whether there could be some more  parallels with Beauty and the Beast, but I find that the tropes of a  D&D world end up overtaking them. Looking for a Beast-Gaston duo, MM  for example could be a GS in fieri whose development is suddenly  stopped (as he says, he wants to be like him, to promptly thow him out a  window as soon as he understands what he really does), but MM, while  shallow, selfish, vengeful, and chauvinistic, doesn't really care about  his own dignity in front of the community, and is quite the weathercock  in general. 

About Gaston and GS, I think Gaston would feel envy  for GS's hunting skills and would be weirded out by his mores, but  Gaston is also cunning and knows how to get  something out of people. In other words, I suspect that he would see GS  as a resource, like the Asylum chief, assuming he can keep him out of  his little kingdom at the village.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Note that the Beast and Gaston also swap stances by the end of the film. The Beast begins moving crouched like a beast, but by the middle of his arc is standing and walking straight. But the the final confrontation Gaston becomes crouched and uses his arms to help his movement. It's a very well done sign that they've swapped roles in the story, with the Beast becoming a civilised man and Gaston a savage hunter.

Which, makes Thaco both Belle and Beast. Which kind of fits with Thaco just being a normal goblin at first before becoming an adventurer. So I wonder if Goblinslayer wasn't part-golem back when they originally encountered each other.

----------


## Anteros

I just want to say that I'm finding the detailed analysis of the 30+ year old children's cartoon far more interesting than any conversation we've ever had about Goblins.

----------


## woweedd

> Returning to this, the reason why there is some overlap is that Gaston is actually a double of the  Beast. I believe it was a deliberate intention of the writers. «Once  upon a time, in a faraway land, a young prince lived in a shining  castle. Although he had everything his heart desired, the prince was  spoiled, selfish, and unkind.» Gaston is young, strong, beautiful,  admired, skilled, but spoiled, selfish, and unkind.
> 
> «Repulsed by her haggard appearance, the prince sneered at the gift and  turned the old woman away, but she warned him not to be deceived by  appearances, for beauty is found within.»
> 
> Simply put, the old  woman looks bad. It's about the appearance. She's repelling. The Prince  does not consider any other factor when dealing with her. 
> 
> Now,  let's look at Gaston: from the first minute he appears, he declares that  Belle is the only girl as beautiful as he, and that that's why he's  going after her. It's all about exterior beauty. Belle is very active on  an intellectual level: she's curious, investigative, enjoys reading,  and is also caring and supportive towards her father, all things that  make her an outsider in the village, but also constitute her "beauty  found within". And Gaston openly disdains these aspects, repeatedly  covering her books in mud and insulting her father.
> 
>  The hot  triplette also shows something about Belle: Belle is an individual. The  triplettes are pretty, but they have lost any aspiration for  individuality and intellectual autonomy; they are a group of three, but  not three different people.
> ...


The Beats is, even PHYSICALLY, like Gaston but more so. Gaston takes pride in being strong, powerful, ETC. The Beast is even bigger, even stronger, and, of course, even more so then Gaston, say it with me....EVERY LAST INCH OF HIM'S COVERED IN HAIR! The Beast is much like Gaston at first, except the Beast changes and becomes better. Gaston does not. The monster becomes a man, and the man slowly reveals the monster he was all along.

----------


## Vinyadan

> The Beats is, even PHYSICALLY, like Gaston but more so. Gaston takes pride in being strong, powerful, ETC. The Beast is even bigger, even stronger, and, of course, even more so then Gaston, say it with me....EVERY LAST INCH OF HIM'S COVERED IN HAIR! The Beast is much like Gaston at first, except the Beast changes and becomes better. Gaston does not. The monster becomes a man, and the man slowly reveals the monster he was all along.


There's also some colour coding. The most evident is with Belle: she is the only person to wear blue in the whole village, with a white shirt. Gaston wears red, and the Beast wears a red mantle when first seen. After he saves Belle, the Beast wears a blue mantle and a white shirt. Then he uses a blue coat and adds blue decorations to the castle for the ball. 

And this is where I think the movie really goes out with the colour and general symbolism. The preparations for the ball are long and full of little scenes. At the center are Beauty and the Beast reading Romeo and Juliet aloud. The Beast likes the book and wants Belle to read it again. Belle wants to hear him read. The Beast admits he can't read any more. Belle proposes to help, for the Beast's joy. And immediately we see the servants draw a heart with a sponge on the dirty window of the room, before cleaning it completely (love pushed the Beast to shed the dirt of meanness, admitting weakness, which allows him to be transparent). And then even the monstrous statues that populate the garden start spouting blue water.
So I think that the cleaning, full of hope of renewal, also refers to the removal of the traits that created the Beast and made him ugly inside, and of the rage, self-hate, hopelessness and mistrust against others that followed the transformation (as we saw in his first meeting with Belle's dad: "So, youve come to stare at the Beast, have you?"). Even a comical scene like the dog coming in with dirty paws, leaving mud on the floor, to be immediately chased outside by a flock of brooms that clean up his tracks, probably is meant to be read that way: it's a cute doggie, but it's still a dog, and the Beast wants to be a man, and must chase away everything that made him an animal.

At the ball, the Beast wears blue, Belle wears gold. The hall where they dance is made of blue windows and golden architecture. The Beast has allowed himself to be fragile and transparent like the glass to show his humanity. Belle wears gold; in spite of the relative sizes, she's the stronger one, holding up the Beast and his dream to be human again as the architecture sustains the windows. Belle's gold dress creates an exceptional, fairytale-like atmosphere, but but also shows how precious she appears to the Beast (and the Beast's refined coat also represents how she now sees him).

In the final scenes, the Beast has gone back to the red mantle, but he is still wearing the white shirt with it. Gaston instead is wearing his usual red clothes, with a blue mantle thrown on them. I think the main reason for this was to give him a jarring look as he's become completely unhinged (all three primary colours is a bit much), but it might also be symbolic: Gaston is wearing his human looks as something tacked on (the blue mantle), but his horrible nature (the red coat) is visible to all. The Beast still wears his outwardly ugliness (the red mantle), to which he has resigned after Belle left, but he has remained beautiful underneath it (the white shirt).

When the Beast transforms, he is enveloped by the red mantle in a way that reminds of a flower's petal, and, when he comes to, he stands up and the red mantle slides off him, and only the white shirt is left. A final magical blue spark circles him and Belle as they kiss, then shoots towards the sky and start the liberation of the castle.

The transformation scene itself reminded me of Michelangelo for a number of reasons. One is the emphasis on the hands and feet, the extremities with which we interact and walk upon the world (the famous hand of Adam). Another one is how the body emerges from the mantle. Michelangelo represented draping extensively in his works, but he also had the idea of freeing an already present human figure that was closed inside the rock. There are some unfinished works of his (the "slaves") that are almost legendary in how they show the human form emerging and freeing itself from the mass of unformed matter of the stone. (Visually, it also reminded me of Blake, with those strong limbs, draping, flight, and rays of light).

Also, a final consideration, although I'm more inclined to believe this to be random, or not intended to be noticed: remember that Gaston boasts of eating 60 eggs a day, and then accuses the Beast of wishing to feast on children? One of the first scenes in the movie actually shows a very evenly divided frame that could be titled "eggs and children". But messy eating is a recurrent theme with the Beast, who forces himself to try to eat with a spoon, being met halfway by Belle who drinks the soup with him directly from the bowl, until he learns with effort to use cutlery that is too small for his hands, even if he looks a bit odd while doing it.

----------


## Dragonus45

> The Beats is, even PHYSICALLY, like Gaston but more so. Gaston takes pride in being strong, powerful, ETC. The Beast is even bigger, even stronger, and, of course, even more so then Gaston, say it with me....EVERY LAST INCH OF HIM'S COVERED IN HAIR! The Beast is much like Gaston at first, except the Beast changes and becomes better. Gaston does not. The monster becomes a man, and the man slowly reveals the monster he was all along.


Also consider that for Gaston this physical prowess is a boon, the aegis over his weak and fragile soul that helps protect him. For the Beast, his strength is even greater yet it is a curse that separates his vulnerable self from the help he desperately desires. He is trapped by his own appearance of power and agency.

----------


## Vinyadan

New page https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-10-2022

----------


## Wildstag

Ah yes, the d12 hd supremacy, where even by level 4 (or is it 5 now?), 1 hp is chump change. Vorpal is a, what, 4th level character with probably d8 or d6?

----------


## Androgeus

> Ah yes, the d12 hd supremacy, where even by level 4 (or is it 5 now?), 1 hp is chump change. Vorpal is a, what, 4th level character with probably d8 or d6?


Isnt Vorpal still pure multi class? So hed have 4/11ths of each classes hit dice?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Ah yes, the d12 hd supremacy, where even by level 4 (or is it 5 now?), 1 hp is chump change. Vorpal is a, what, 4th level character with probably d8 or d6?


Does he even have a full hit die? Potentially he has like maybe 4hp from the class he took 1/11 of first and maybe one or two from every other class. So we're looking at maybe 15ish hp if we go by that assumption (another is that he has his Warrior d8 until he actually picks something to take a full level in, but that's even worse at ~5).

Complains meanwhile has around 38 without his CON bonus being taken into account, Big Ears 32, and Thaco 28. Of course adding in the CON bonus Complains is probably pushing 50hp, the demon transformation might have pushed him over it.

Complains also has Fast Healing IIRC. He gets that hp back in like six seconds.

----------


## Radar

> Does he even have a full hit die? Potentially he has like maybe 4hp from the class he took 1/11 of first and maybe one or two from every other class. So we're looking at maybe 15ish hp if we go by that assumption (another is that he has his Warrior d8 until he actually picks something to take a full level in, but that's even worse at ~5).
> 
> Complains meanwhile has around 38 without his CON bonus being taken into account, Big Ears 32, and Thaco 28. Of course adding in the CON bonus Complains is probably pushing 50hp, the demon transformation might have pushed him over it.
> 
> Complains also has Fast Healing IIRC. He gets that hp back in like six seconds.


If we go by mechanics, becoming a teller must have given Vorpal some boost. Considering that it is scalable proportionally to how many spirits you take in, the most natural mechanics would be gaining levels in some teller class. That would translate to some additional HP.

----------


## -D-

Do you guys remember there was some sort of demonic axe? Me neither.

It's probably not important.

----------


## Traab

I think they have traveled through like 5 rooms since the axe broke. Dear god the pacing on this comic is painful when you try to look at the overall storyline.

----------


## -D-

When did axe broke? As in what year AD. Archives don't help.

----------


## Vinyadan

> When did axe broke? As in what year AD. Archives don't help.


2016. The page URLs contain dates now.

----------


## Fyraltari

> When did axe broke? As in what year AD. Archives don't help.


According to the URL of this page: on the 13th of April 2016.

----------


## Dame_Mechanus

> I think they have traveled through like 5 rooms since the axe broke. Dear god the pacing on this comic is painful when you try to look at the overall storyline.


The death of a major character who the rest of the cast is still mourning happened in-universe (at most) two days ago.

For us as readers, it's been 12 years.

----------


## Lurkmoar

> The death of a major character who the rest of the cast is still mourning happened in-universe (at most) two days ago.
> 
> For us as readers, it's been 12 years.


Not quite glacial on a geological scale, but dang. I'm almost tempted to say there was more forward story momentum on Berserk or Hunter X Hunter.

----------


## Dame_Mechanus

> Not quite glacial on a geological scale, but dang. I'm almost tempted to say there was more forward story momentum on Berserk or Hunter X Hunter.


I'm not sure if it's better or worse to consider Kin and Minmax, since we just (well, relatively speaking, it was more like a year ago) got their touching reunion and saw Kin again after she had clearly spent some time leveling and gaining power...

And it's still. Been. Two. Days.

For us it's been nine years, but for them it was seriously something that _just happened._

Ellipsis is still an excellent artist and I really enjoy her story, but the pacing of the comic has kind of ruined some of the emotional impacts.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> Ellipsis is still an excellent artist and I really enjoy her story, but the pacing of the comic has kind of ruined some of the emotional impacts.


That might be for the better, considering the grim tone she often desires.

For me, something strange happened when Kore's gratuitous time dilation was revealed by the ghost of Chief. It looped around from being horrific to being hilarious. I've returned to its original idea of the entire thing being a campaign run by Herbert, and now I think of the goblins as an extra set of players with an adolescent grasp of storytelling, always trying to up the grimdark. (In this interpretation, Herbert is an inexperienced enough DM to think it's a good idea to run three synchronized games in the same world.)

I know that interpretation won't be supported by the ending (if there's ever an ending), but it makes me enjoy the comic more. *grins* And it's apparent that most of us in this thread have to search for a way to enjoy it.

----------


## Dame_Mechanus

> That might be for the better, considering the grim tone she often desires.
> 
> For me, something strange happened when Kore's gratuitous time dilation was revealed by the ghost of Chief. It looped around from being horrific to being hilarious. I've returned to its original idea of the entire thing being a campaign run by Herbert, and now I think of the goblins as an extra set of players with an adolescent grasp of storytelling, always trying to up the grimdark. (In this interpretation, Herbert is an inexperienced enough DM to think it's a good idea to run three synchronized games in the same world.)
> 
> I know that interpretation won't be supported by the ending (if there's ever an ending), but it makes me enjoy the comic more. *grins* And it's apparent that most of us in this thread have to search for a way to enjoy it.


At this point, it's as valid an interpretation as any.

For me, it's not struggling for a way to enjoy the comic so much as frustration that the pacing is just... terrible. Obviously, being _here_ means being no stranger to comics sometimes taking a while to come out, but... like... honestly, something broke in me in the comic before the most recent one. A full-page glamour shot of a character with no background resolving a problem that had just been introduced in a way that made no sense... and then it sort of concurrently hit that this is also the... fifth? Sixth? Some number-eth dungeon crawl in which a bunch of strange rooms come one after another without any obvious thematic rationale between them. Sure, each one is visually distinct, but... what the heck is this place supposed to _be_? Who built it and why? Can anyone even remember _why_ the main characters are _in_ this dungeon in the first place?

And then you think about the fact that there are at least two supposedly important cast members who literally have not been seen in the comic since 2012, and it's just... this comic's pacing was not great when she was following a regular update schedule. Now it's downright interminable. _And we just introduced another new cast member when the comic can barely keep up with the ones it already has._

The comic itself is fine. It's fun, the characters are fun, the art is nice, and so forth. But it needs to either start picking up the pace with each page or having pages come out faster, and that doesn't seem to be happening. Yes, you don't have to read the comic if you're not enjoying it, but the reasons for that lack of enjoyment are all around the text, not because of the text itself.

----------


## Vinyadan

> now I think of the goblins as an extra set of players with an adolescent grasp of storytelling, always trying to up the grimdark. (In this interpretation, Herbert is an inexperienced enough DM to think it's a good idea to run three synchronized games in the same world.)
> 
> I know that interpretation won't be supported by the ending (if there's ever an ending), but it makes me enjoy the comic more. *grins* And it's apparent that most of us in this thread have to search for a way to enjoy it.


As an ending, I would find it extra-depressing (the Goblins were not their own characters all along, and they only realise it at the end). So it would be very fitting. However, outside the comic, there's been a series of explanations for how players don't control player characters, and are more like distant ancestors, so it probably would be less sad than I picture it, assuming it gets explained in-comic.

I also found Kore's Hyperbolic Torture Chamber hilarious. It's as if, instead of the lone tank rolling towards Tom Hanks in Private Ryan, there had been a whole column of 10,000 German soldiers, complete with stereotypical Nazi officer barking orders, following it. It's just too much.

I don't think the comic is doing particularly well on a writing perspective, though. Chief's arc was abruptly assumed to be complete and ended. The characters don't have much in the way of personal objectives. Something about their personalities also doesn't convince me: it's as if they change a lot based on the scene to be shown (see Ears going from being reasonable and explanatory to massive hammy emotional outbursts and illogical decisions).

EDIT: According to a quick count, it's been 186 pages since MM started adventuring with the Goblins. If there's not yet been any payoff for anything important that was introduced since then (except Paulusz), it wasn't for lack of pages.

----------


## Gez

> A and then it sort of concurrently hit that this is also the... fifth? Sixth? Some number-eth dungeon crawl in which a bunch of strange rooms come one after another without any obvious thematic rationale between them. Sure, each one is visually distinct, but... what the heck is this place supposed to _be_? Who built it and why?


I think the best way to look at it is that these dungeons just _are_. Thy weren't built. When the world was created, dungeons were part of the package.

Or maybe they spontaneously generate where there's a lot of magic. Like remember how the Maze of Many was contained inside a gigantic sword lost by a demigod or something? Think the gigantic smith put it there? No. But a place with an insanely powerful gigantic magic item, bam, spontaneous dungeon.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> I'm not sure if it's better or worse to consider Kin and Minmax, since we just (well, relatively speaking, it was more like a year ago) got their touching reunion and saw Kin again after she had clearly spent some time leveling and gaining power...
> 
> And it's still. Been. Two. Days.
> 
> For us it's been nine years, but for them it was seriously something that _just happened._
> 
> Ellipsis is still an excellent artist and I really enjoy her story, but the pacing of the comic has kind of ruined some of the emotional impacts.


For Kin it had probably been a lot longer. For Minmax... yeah, it was _just before they entered the dungeon they are currently in_.

----------


## Dame_Mechanus

> I think the best way to look at it is that these dungeons just _are_. Thy weren't built. When the world was created, dungeons were part of the package.


Right. Which... certainly works all right so long as it feels like the comic is moving at a decent pace and everything feels like it's progressing well enough. There are _worse_ things to believe than that this world just has a bunch of generated dungeons full of traps that somehow magically reset for the next group to go through what appear to be prog rock landscapes with combat encounters.

But we have been in this dungeon for a decade now, and there's no indication we're getting close to leaving. Also, as mentioned, isn't there supposed to be some kind of demon infestation happening? And again, does _anyone_ remember _why the characters are in this dungeon in the first place?_ There _was_ a clearly stated reason, yes, but it feels like even the _characters_ have forgotten now.

There are, to be fair, _worse_ fates for comics. But... eh, now this is just whinging instead of constructive commentary.

----------


## Kantaki

I _think_ it was a shortcut back home to their tribe.
Or wherever they were going before they broke the axe.

----------


## sihnfahl

> I _think_ it was a shortcut back home to their tribe.
> Or wherever they were going before they broke the axe.


Yep.  It was a shortcut.
An almost 13 year long shortcut.

----------


## Vinyadan

To tell the truth, going into the Dragon's Maw was a suicidal decision. Maybe not the first time, as they knew Kore was after them, but they didn't know about the bridge. After they roped Kore's throat, however, their best bet was to drop their current path and escape through the woods. The trees would have given them cover, and they were faster than the Dwarf. Instead, they decided to go back to the completely coverless bridge, where they would have certainly died, had it not been for Forgath and MM (Forgath held off Kore, and MM was absolutely necessary to solve the puzzle by lifing the grate).

----------


## Fyraltari

> Yep.  It was a shortcut.
> An almost 13 year long shortcut.


Just iagine how long the way around would have been!

----------


## sihnfahl

> Just iagine how long the way around would have been!


Well, it's all the speed of Plot, anyhow.  And Elli's update schedule.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Well, it's all the speed of Plot, anyhow.  And Elli's update schedule.


I know. That was a joke.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> And Elli's update schedule.


Considering that Elli's children are going to be finishing the current arc I'm grateful they didn't go the long way.

----------


## Murk

Now that they've decided they need to hunt down Kore anyway and also go to hell, the whole "let's take a shortcut to get to the village before Kore" is completely useless. 

Which seems realistic for a D&D campaign. Or for real life. Plans change, that's life. 

But it doesn't make for a particularly compelling plot. They've now been in a dungeon _they didn't actually need to be in_ for a while. 

I'm still unsure whether the dungeon will turn out to have a consistent theme (and function) or not. 
On the one hand, a lot of these rooms seem to have things in common. Lots of colours that change based on the person(s) in the room. Lots of "know thyself": I remember a room where they had to fight themselves, an angel that will kill you if you answer questions about yourself wrong, and something with pillars that show who you want to boink? 
So it _could_ be that it's a dungeon of self-development and personal growth and the only way to escape it is through introspection, and it _could_ be that that needly ties in to the characters' personal stories and the general plot. 

But it could also just be a loose collection of rooms that made the author go "ooh wouldn't it be cool if..." 

Not sure yet which.

----------


## Morgaln

> Now that they've decided they need to hunt down Kore anyway and also go to hell, the whole "let's take a shortcut to get to the village before Kore" is completely useless. 
> 
> Which seems realistic for a D&D campaign. Or for real life. Plans change, that's life. 
> 
> But it doesn't make for a particularly compelling plot. They've now been in a dungeon _they didn't actually need to be in_ for a while. 
> 
> I'm still unsure whether the dungeon will turn out to have a consistent theme (and function) or not. 
> On the one hand, a lot of these rooms seem to have things in common. Lots of colours that change based on the person(s) in the room. Lots of "know thyself": I remember a room where they had to fight themselves, an angel that will kill you if you answer questions about yourself wrong, and something with pillars that show who you want to boink? 
> So it _could_ be that it's a dungeon of self-development and personal growth and the only way to escape it is through introspection, and it _could_ be that that needly ties in to the characters' personal stories and the general plot. 
> ...


The "before Kore" part of getting to the village isn't even a thing. The goblins never encountered Kore until the fight on the bridge; which only happened because they had already decided to go into the dungeon that bridge leads to. To this day, they don't even know Kore has a map to the village and is on his way there.

Their argument for going through the dungeon was that it would cut down travel time (a travel time of eight days otherwise, which without pressing need, would probably have been fine) and that it would avoid enemies on the other way; enemies that the group was clearly facing every time they set out to travel to that warcamp, so shouldn't pose too much of a threat to them. A dungeon crawl was certain to be more dangerous than that. So the reasoning for going through this dungeon was flimsy, at best.

----------


## Murk

Oh, I might be misremembering!
I thought they somehow knew Kore had the intention of wiping out their camp; they couldn't defeat him so they needed to get there quickly. No idea where I got that from, then. Been a while since I read it all.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> At this point, it's as valid an interpretation as any.
> 
> ...and then it sort of concurrently hit that this is also the... fifth? Sixth? Some number-eth dungeon crawl in which a bunch of strange rooms come one after another without any obvious thematic rationale between them. Sure, each one is visually distinct, but... what the heck is this place supposed to _be_? Who built it and why?


I think my "this is a huge D&D campaign with several concurrent groups of players" interpretation helps a bit. The dungeons are random and nonsensical because Herbert prefers to design ones that are a collection of puzzles rather a sensible place with a purpose and a history, and he favors novelty over coherence. Herbert might be making them up on the fly, or he might have designed a bunch of places eons ago before some kind of magic occurred that turned his campaign into a real universe.

Agreed about the awful pacing, but at least we're not in the Maze of Many anymore.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Kornaki

At least if we were in the maze of many it would be historically bad pacing. You would feel like you were really watching something special.  This is just bad in a mediocre way.

----------


## Dame_Mechanus

> At least if we were in the maze of many it would be historically bad pacing. You would feel like you were really watching something special.  This is just bad in a mediocre way.


Goblins: A Comic Which No Longer Features Any Goblins

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Goblins: A Comic Which No Longer Features Any Goblins


Be fair, Thaco and Vorpal haven't gotten their templates yet. I'm also not sure that Saves A Fox is going to get one.

----------


## Morgaln

> Be fair, Thaco and Vorpal haven't gotten their templates yet. I'm also not sure that Saves A Fox is going to get one.


Do we even expect Saves-A-Fox to show up again in our lifetimes?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Do we even expect Saves-A-Fox to show up again in our lifetimes?


I don't expect them to *leave the dungeon* in my lifetime.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Do we even expect Saves-A-Fox to show up again in our lifetimes?


Is she alive? I thought she was dead.

----------


## Morgaln

> Is she alive? I thought she was dead.


She is very much alive; last we saw her and Dies-Horribly was when Klik died. Which was in _2012_. Holy s***!

----------


## Dame_Mechanus

> I don't expect them to *leave the dungeon* in my lifetime.


I was originally going to say something snarky about "depending on what you expect your lifetime to be, that might not say a whole lot" but frankly it sounds equally accurate no matter what you estimate as your remaining lifetime.

----------


## Anteros

Pretty sure the comic is only still "alive" at all because it provides a platform for Ellipsis to spread their voice and periodically beg for money.  They have no incentive to actually finish the story and fade into obscurity, and absolutely no artistic integrity to do so either. 

Maybe that's cynical, but I'd bet my life that it's also accurate.

----------


## Murk

I seem to recall the comic was past the halfway point. 
It's something like 900 pages now, so at most 900 pages more to go. The previous year has averaged about one page every three weeks, I think. 

So that would be 2700 weeks, or 52 years at most. 

Personally I still hope to be alive in 52 years, but it'll be a close call.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I'm less concerned with me being alive than with Ellipsis being alive.

----------


## Dame_Mechanus

> I'm less concerned with me being alive than with Ellipsis being alive.


Well I'm concerned with you being alive! You seem like a nice sort and it'd be better if you were still around.

That being said, if we could start actually moving toward some sort of resolution one of these years that'd be keen.

----------


## Keltest

> Well I'm concerned with you being alive! You seem like a nice sort and it'd be better if you were still around.
> 
> That being said, if we could start actually moving toward some sort of resolution one of these years that'd be keen.


As much as we complain, more problems have been resolved than created. We are on a downward slope heading towards a conclusion.

----------


## Dame_Mechanus

> As much as we complain, more problems have been resolved than created. We are on a downward slope heading towards a conclusion.


Really? How do you figure that one?

Just picking the end of Book 5 as a starting point, which was back in 2012, we've had whatever is happening with Dies Horribly's arm, Forgath being turned part-Klik, Idle, Bowst, and Ward all being introduced, Big Ears becoming part angel and getting a token from the angel, Plush getting introduced (Pawlush, I know, but everyone's defaulting to Plush now), all of Vorpal's prophecies. Oh, and the whole "hell realm taking over and the goblins need to visit hell" thing.

Still outstanding are the fates of Dies Horribly and Saves a Fox, the fate of the Viper Clan, Chief being trapped inside of Kore, and the general face-off with Kore that's clearly coming up.

Meanwhile, resolved is... the prophecy of Forgath's death and Minmax and Kin getting back together. This doesn't really feel like things are approaching a resolution.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Well I'm concerned with you being alive! You seem like a nice sort and it'd be better if you were still around.


Thankfully I believe I'm younger than her by a couple of decades, so it's all relative.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Personally I still hope to be alive in 52 years, but it'll be a close call.


I think a better question would be "will the Internet still be there in five decades, and  if so how different will it be?"



> As much as we complain, more problems have been resolved than created. We are on a downward slope heading towards a conclusion.


If so, I then Olympus Mons has a steeper slope.

----------


## Vinyadan

Some time ago, the twitter account did mention how much comic was left (or how much time it would likely take to end the comic), and to me it sounded impossibly optimistic.

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> Some time ago, the twitter account did mention how much comic was left (or how much time it would likely take to end the comic), and to me it sounded impossibly optimistic.


Well now I'm curious, how much time was supposedly left? You can spoiler tag I guess.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Well now I'm curious, how much time was supposedly left? You can spoiler tag I guess.


https://twitter.com/EllipsisGoblins/...82520773971968

*Spoiler*
Show

In 2019, it was four or even three years left. Based on the output back then, it would have meant 72 to 144 pages. The tweet came out while the Goblins were using the Golem against Kore.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Some time ago, the twitter account did mention how much comic was left (or how much time it would likely take to end the comic), and to me it sounded impossibly optimistic.


How ironic.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

If those timescales were true I'd expect this dungeon to be wrapping up arcs like no tomorrow. Which I guess it is? Vorpal claimed his new identity in the face of the divine, Minmax and Kin are reunited, Complains has magically gotten over his reluctance to take charge, Twogath's prophecy has been fulfilled, Big Ears has a boyfriend (disappointing lack of hardness nonwithstanding)...

----------


## Traab

> How ironic.

----------


## Gez

> If those timescales were true I'd expect this dungeon to be wrapping up arcs like no tomorrow. Which I guess it is? Vorpal claimed his new identity in the face of the divine, Minmax and Kin are reunited, Complains has magically gotten over his reluctance to take charge, Twogath's prophecy has been fulfilled, Big Ears has a boyfriend (disappointing lack of hardness nonwithstanding)...


While those could be their character arcs, there still remain the story arcs: Kore, the axe, and also all the plotlines related to Dies-Horribly's side of the sory (Duv's prophecy thing, the evil klik thing, probably other stuff I forgot).

----------


## Quild

New page! Or movie?

*Spoiler*
Show

I was afraid they were going to be attacked by spiders but these things have 6 legs, not going to happen!

----------


## BaronOfHell

> Personally I still hope to be alive in 52 years, but it'll be a close call.


So.. you're 70?

----------


## Fyraltari

> New page! Or movie?
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I was afraid they were going to be attacked by spiders but these things have 6 legs, not going to happen!


This really feel like an out-of-universe discussion. Like it's not Minmax and Kin talking but their players. I thought the whole "this is a game ran by Herbert and his friends" thing was quietly retired?

----------


## Divayth Fyr

Ah yes, nothing like a webcomic that already updates at a glacial pace spending one of its precious pages on a joke that doesn't add anything to it and will age poorly (and probably quickly)... At least some other webcomics willing to drop the plot in favor of such nonsense (that come to mind) have the one redeeming quality of updating far more regularly and often (hi LFG).

----------


## Keltest

> Ah yes, nothing like a webcomic that already updates at a glacial pace spending one of its precious pages on a joke that doesn't add anything to it and will age poorly (and probably quickly)... At least some other webcomics willing to drop the plot in favor of such nonsense (that come to mind) have the one redeeming quality of updating far more regularly and often (hi LFG).


I mean, I laughed. A good bit, actually. I thought this page was genuinely really funny.

----------


## Morgaln

As someone who hasn't seen Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness yet: did that comic just spoil part of the plot? On second thought, don't answer that. I don't mind spoilers, but others might...

----------


## Typewriter

> Ah yes, nothing like a webcomic that already updates at a glacial pace spending one of its precious pages on a joke that doesn't add anything to it and will age poorly (and probably quickly)... At least some other webcomics willing to drop the plot in favor of such nonsense (that come to mind) have the one redeeming quality of updating far more regularly and often (hi LFG).


What strikes me about it is the history of the justification for the comics pace being that Elle doesn't care about the slow pacing while it's written because she cares more about how it'll flow when it's all complete - it doesn't matter if it takes 10 years to write something that only takes a day to read if it's a good final product - but having a random strip with a random reference with a short shelf life feels contradictory to that justification.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Ah yes, nothing like a webcomic that already updates at a glacial pace spending one of its precious pages on a joke that doesn't add anything to it and will age poorly (and probably quickly)... At least some other webcomics willing to drop the plot in favor of such nonsense (that come to mind) have the one redeeming quality of updating far more regularly and often (hi LFG).


I'm likely never going to see Multiverse of Madness, so to me this is already a wasted page. Which is a shame, this could have been a much needed recap, but there's too much focus on the reference to get the important parts in.

It could also have ACTUALLY EXPLAINED why Kin is now like five levels higher than she was a few hours ago. Although I wouldn't be surprised if that's in the September page, and this one was made just to ruin the pacing even more. What's worse is.that until the comic brought it up I wasn't questioning it.

----------


## Daywalker1983

> At this point, it's as valid an interpretation as any.
> 
> For me, it's not struggling for a way to enjoy the comic so much as frustration that the pacing is just... terrible. Obviously, being _here_ means being no stranger to comics sometimes taking a while to come out, but... like... honestly, something broke in me in the comic before the most recent one. A full-page glamour shot of a character with no background resolving a problem that had just been introduced in a way that made no sense... and then it sort of concurrently hit that this is also the... fifth? Sixth? Some number-eth dungeon crawl in which a bunch of strange rooms come one after another without any obvious thematic rationale between them. Sure, each one is visually distinct, but... what the heck is this place supposed to _be_? Who built it and why? Can anyone even remember _why_ the main characters are _in_ this dungeon in the first place?
> 
> And then you think about the fact that there are at least two supposedly important cast members who literally have not been seen in the comic since 2012, and it's just... this comic's pacing was not great when she was following a regular update schedule. Now it's downright interminable. _And we just introduced another new cast member when the comic can barely keep up with the ones it already has._
> 
> The comic itself is fine. It's fun, the characters are fun, the art is nice, and so forth. But it needs to either start picking up the pace with each page or having pages come out faster, and that doesn't seem to be happening. Yes, you don't have to read the comic if you're not enjoying it, but the reasons for that lack of enjoyment are all around the text, not because of the text itself.


This is going to Sound rude, i dont mean it rude, but how can you square all of what you wrote with Ellipsis being an excellent artist? Because i agree with everything you said, but i actually feel like from pov of the craft of writing, maybe also drawing, she is a horrible artist. On a pure Level of the craft itself, goblins is hilariously Bad. The Comic for me lives off of it's ideas, and it's a constant struggle for me to See those squandered with every updatezand painfully dragging joke. 

Aa for the latest Page: mm is dumb, but kin is not... How can she Let him break those Things? Gonna bite them in the ass...

----------


## Daywalker1983

> https://twitter.com/EllipsisGoblins/...82520773971968
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> In 2019, it was four or even three years left. Based on the output back then, it would have meant 72 to 144 pages. The tweet came out while the Goblins were using the Golem against Kore.


So any day now?

----------


## Vinyadan

Super weird page. It opens with a very dubious perspective in panel one, then we have a conversation through which the author seems to insist that Goblins did what Multiverse of Madness did, but earlier and better (and, possibly, is implying to be its inspiration).

On the other hand, this would be an unusually pleasant (for the reader) attitude of MM towards Kin. He isn't an abject idiot, his intentions are ultimately readable, he isn't in his wet sad puppy phase, and he isn't particularly irritating. Which unfortunately means that he isn't MM as we know him.

Then again, Kin "teaming up with an alternate of hers who broke reality and turned out to be evil" seems to explain the time we haven't seen her, and she shouldn't have been interrupted, or, at least, the last panel shoud have introduced her going into more detail. There's also the obvious question of whether she gave up on the jade teapot to look for MM.

So I'll say what I almost always feel about comic pages I don't like: it's overindulgent.

By the way, are we back to wondering how PCs are in contact with our world?

----------


## Anteros

Yeah...this is a bad page.  I don't mind Minmax breaking the 4th wall occasionally but this is just bad and won't even make sense in a few years when MoM isn't fresh in everyone's mind.  Over indulgent is the perfect description.

----------


## Cygnia

She's a better artist by using the qualifier that she's a better artist than me.  That being said, she appears to be addicted to drawing misery and pain and that puts me off.  Even the scenes where it's relatively sweet or funny, two or three strips later she comes in hard with the wangst for wangst's sake.

----------


## BaronOfHell

> Yeah...this is a bad page.  I don't mind Minmax breaking the 4th wall occasionally but this is just bad and won't even make sense in a few years when MoM isn't fresh in everyone's mind.  Over indulgent is the perfect description.


From the PoV of someone who didn't get the reference at all.. to me MinMax was his usual annoying self, hindering Kin from explaining tales I think I would have enjoyed reading about.
What disappointed/surprised me  was that Kin cared enough about the irrelevant name of the maze that she allowed those interruption.

On the other hand, I suppose the single many maze adventure (together with her birthday party) is a huge deal for her regarding her feelings towards MinMax ("seeing" each other), and in this sense, it's very important for her that MM does remember what happened.

----------


## Traab

> I'm likely never going to see Multiverse of Madness, so to me this is already a wasted page. Which is a shame, this could have been a much needed recap, but there's too much focus on the reference to get the important parts in.
> 
> It could also have ACTUALLY EXPLAINED why Kin is now like five levels higher than she was a few hours ago. Although I wouldn't be surprised if that's in the September page, and this one was made just to ruin the pacing even more. What's worse is.that until the comic brought it up I wasn't questioning it.


I mean, we know why kin is higher level. That was the whole point to staying behind, to level grind with the maze hacked so they could farm levels and gear and whatnot and leave the instant they entered whole new beings.

----------


## Anteros

The only interesting thing on the whole page to me is that Kin called her alternates evil.  That may have just been for the sake of the joke though.

----------


## Kornaki

The last update came out in June.  THIS is what we waited for?

----------


## Morgaln

> I mean, we know why kin is higher level. That was the whole point to staying behind, to level grind with the maze hacked so they could farm levels and gear and whatnot and leave the instant they entered whole new beings.


Of course that whole explanation was in 2013, so an actual recap would not have been amiss.

----------


## -D-

> She's a better artist by using the qualifier that she's a better artist than me.  That being said, she appears to be addicted to drawing misery and pain and that puts me off.  Even the scenes where it's relatively sweet or funny, two or three strips later she comes in hard with the wangst for wangst's sake.


Just because she's a better artist than you doesn't mean she's good. 

The Goblin art is very... lumpy. And line work is meh at best. And colors are usually flat and boring. Insistence on permanent scars just complicates things. I haven't seen this dedication to art complications since Erfworld and Signamancy. 

Characters rarely feel like they have agency. Usually they just deliver joke, message of the day, or suffering.. I have no idea if they are roleplaying or actual people.

----------


## Murk

I think Ellipsis is a fine artist! Not a great one, but good enough. 

Like, yeah the characters are lumpy, she only knows how to draw a few perspectives and action poses, and there are unnecessary commas in the writing, but it's of very consistent quality. And that's important for serial art. You know what you're going to get. The characters are recognisable and with a few exceptions the art is never _ugly_. 

The art and writing is also very accessible. I know a lot of "better" webcomics, but those are all comics that really require my _attention_. 
The art in Unsounded is gorgeous, but because of that I could never spend an entire afternoon reading it - too tiresome for the art glands. Similarly, I think OoTS is very witty and clever, and that too means that I'll be tired after a few pages. Goblins does very well for casual reading. 

By now I'm just reading out of habit and disaster tourism, but I think the accessibility was very important in getting me started. It's the kind of comic that you can casually browse through and before you know it you're a hundred pages in. 

All of that to say that you don't need to be a great artist to make a good webcomic, I guess.

----------


## Typewriter

No complaints about the art here, other than the fact that I personally prefer the style that she was using back around 2012. At some point, I think around 5-6 years ago, the art shifted and became slightly less... cartoony? Every now and then someone links to older pages and I'm always refreshed by the style.

----------


## Lurkmoar

Uh... a page about leaning on the fourth wall and taking a swipe at a Marvel movie?

A one off pun, ok. A full page?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Uh... a page about leaning on the fourth wall and taking a swipe at a Marvel movie?
> 
> A one off pun, ok. A full page?


You're assuming it's only one page.

----------


## Dragonus45

Oof, pop culture references are clearly not Eli's thing. Interesting to waste a whole page on this considering what a scarce resource they are.

----------


## -D-

Most pop culture reference age like fine milk near a fireplace.

----------


## Lurkmoar

> You're assuming it's only one page.


I'm a hopeful soul.

I just reread the latest page to make sure, they spent more time on a pop culture reference then explaining what happened with Kin and why it wasn't an arbitrary decision to have her show up looking for Minmax.

----------


## Dame_Mechanus

> This is going to Sound rude, i dont mean it rude, but how can you square all of what you wrote with Ellipsis being an excellent artist?


It didn't sound rude at all, but the consideration is appreciated all the same.

Ellipsis has a distinct style, generally has a good sense of weight and motion in her drawings, is clearly willing to design interesting room layouts for things to take place in, and consistently draws characters on-model and recognizable. She also does a good job at adding environmental details and incidental actions in scenes that would otherwise just be two characters talking to one another with static framing. There's occasional moments of poor flow and unclear staging, but those are few and far between.

Writing and pacing, on the other hand... are another matter altogether. Both of which this update exemplifies. Not only did this page kill the pacing of the scene with the GAP (which was already pretty terrible, let's be real) it also kills the pacing of the reunion between Kin and Minmax while _also_ completely failing to capitalize on _literally_ anything that made their interactions fun and enjoyable in the first place. For a cheap pop-culture riff that _doesn't even work._

Sheesh. Anyone remember Websnark? You Had Me And You Lost Me? I feel like I'm getting there.

----------


## Anteros

Yeah, the big complaints with the comic have always been the writing and the pacing.  If I did have a complaint about the art it would be that sometimes it's more detailed than I'd like when Ellipsis is veering into particularly disturbing territory.

----------


## Fyraltari

My only real complaint about the art is the backgrounds.

There often jusy aren't any, with the characters just standing in shapeless color-gradients, which is very odd.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Yeah, the big complaints with the comic have always been the writing and the pacing.  If I did have a complaint about the art it would be that sometimes it's more detailed than I'd like when Ellipsis is veering into particularly disturbing territory.


Writing, pacing, and the torture/misery-fixation seem to be the dominant complaints.




> Writing and pacing, on the other hand... are another matter altogether. Both of which this update exemplifies. Not only did this page kill the pacing of the scene with the GAP (which was already pretty terrible, let's be real) it also kills the pacing of the reunion between Kin and Minmax while _also_ completely failing to capitalize on _literally_ anything that made their interactions fun and enjoyable in the first place. For a cheap pop-culture riff that _doesn't even work._
> 
> Sheesh. Anyone remember Websnark? You Had Me And You Lost Me? I feel like I'm getting there.


The one valuable thing we got out of this is learning that MM is able to kid Kin a bit, which seems like a clue to where things are going with this (not with him on complete bended knee begging for forgiveness for the leash event, nor in complete 'I'm trying to grieve you, why are you here?' mode). So at least we're probably moving into explanation for why she is back, where the relationship (whatever it can be) is going to go, etc. Y'know, in 6-12 months or so. 

I miss Websnark (and Wednesday). They were just small-scale enough and personal enough that they almost seemed like internet friends. I hope whatever they have gone on to doing has been fruitful and fulfilling.

----------


## Neoriceisgood

You'd imagine with an update pace similar to Goblin's, you'd want to make sure every page you post 'counts' as much as possible in terms of story progress ...

Well this page was never going to appeal to me personally as I'm not really into Marvel, nor into pop culture humor, but I'm honestly kinda stunned at the
choice to have a page of this nature to start with. 

I guess on a more plot-relevant note, is the path they're on angled a bit or is the perspective of the art just a bit wonky?

----------


## Traab

> Writing, pacing, and the torture/misery-fixation seem to be the dominant complaints.
> 
> 
> 
> The one valuable thing we got out of this is learning that MM is able to kid Kin a bit, which seems like a clue to where things are going with this (not with him on complete bended knee begging for forgiveness for the leash event, nor in complete 'I'm trying to grieve you, why are you here?' mode). So at least we're probably moving into explanation for why she is back, where the relationship (whatever it can be) is going to go, etc. Y'know, in 6-12 months or so. 
> 
> I miss Websnark (and Wednesday). They were just small-scale enough and personal enough that they almost seemed like internet friends. I hope whatever they have gone on to doing has been fruitful and fulfilling.


Thats assuming this is even canon for their characters and wont be instantly forgotten about next update. This felt like a mix of in character and ooc talking.

----------


## Dame_Mechanus

> The one valuable thing we got out of this is learning that MM is able to kid Kin a bit, which seems like a clue to where things are going with this (not with him on complete bended knee begging for forgiveness for the leash event, nor in complete 'I'm trying to grieve you, why are you here?' mode). So at least we're probably moving into explanation for why she is back, where the relationship (whatever it can be) is going to go, etc. Y'know, in 6-12 months or so.


True, but that's something that could be established effectively in, at most, a panel or two. I agree that it's good to re-establish their banter and make it clear that they have fundamentally picked up in mostly the same place but Minmax has grown a bit, but this doesn't even totally work for that because it doesn't feel like Minmax is actually talking so much as the writer is talking through him. (Made worse by the fact that the comparison being drawn doesn't actually _work_ very well; it feels like noticing there are a couple of broad-strokes similarities and then working backward to try to make them feel more profound.)

It feels like a gag that might have worked if the comic had better pacing, but it doesn't, so it doesn't.




> I miss Websnark (and Wednesday). They were just small-scale enough and personal enough that they almost seemed like internet friends. I hope whatever they have gone on to doing has been fruitful and fulfilling.


He seems to still be doing stuff as found from a quick Twitter search, I hope he's living his best life. (That being said, allusions to medical problems make me worried for him. But I worry a lot naturally.)

----------


## Willie the Duck

> You'd imagine with an update pace similar to Goblin's, you'd want to make sure every page you post 'counts' as much as possible in terms of story progress ...


Honestly, I think it depends on whether we think we would have gotten an update if she hadn't decided to put this in. 

My guess is that we'd have gotten a relatively meatless page showing that we were back to MM and Kin either way, this one just has a joke that will age as well as some of my Cards Against Humanity cards (because you know Paris Hilton references will always be timely. :-P).




> True, but that's something that could be established effectively in, at most, a panel or two. I agree that it's good to re-establish their banter and make it clear that they have fundamentally picked up in mostly the same place but Minmax has grown a bit, but this doesn't even totally work for that because it doesn't feel like Minmax is actually talking so much as the writer is talking through him. (Made worse by the fact that the comparison being drawn doesn't actually _work_ very well; it feels like noticing there are a couple of broad-strokes similarities and then working backward to try to make them feel more profound.)
> 
> It feels like a gag that might have worked if the comic had better pacing, but it doesn't, so it doesn't.


The gag is stupid. Marvel has had alternate realities and travel between them since before goblins started (much less when they got to the MoM). The coincidence of both having 'MM' alliteration could have been a reasonable one panel aside (lampshade hanging, if you will). If we are getting this instead of something better, I'd be mad. In the end, I think either way we would have gotten a page that would communicate:
We are back with Min Max and KinThey aren't still at the leash-event plotline or the 'why are you here' momentMinMax is being his 'unintelligent, but generally cagey and with-it' version and not his 'pants on head stupid' incarnation.They are talking, casually, and MinMax is comfortable enough to poke fun at Kin.




> He seems to still be doing stuff as found from a quick Twitter search, I hope he's living his best life. (That being said, allusions to medical problems make me worried for him. But I worry a lot naturally.)


_From information he shared with his blog so I don't feel creepy repeating:_
He lost something like 150 lbs after his doctor said he was in first stage heart failure. It always sounded like he'd turned his health around, but dealing with the repercussions would be a lifelong thing. I believe he moved to Canada because it would be an easier dual-citizenship path than for Wednesday to come to the US, here's hoping the Canadian medical system does him right.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Sheesh. Anyone remember Websnark? You Had Me And You Lost Me? I feel like I'm getting there.





> I miss Websnark (and Wednesday). They were just small-scale enough and personal enough that they almost seemed like internet friends. I hope whatever they have gone on to doing has been fruitful and fulfilling.


God I miss websnark, I still follow their patreon though. He still publishes various short stories and novellas in the Justice Wing universe. Given the work he has consistently put in at such high quality incidentally Eric and Wednesday Burnes-White are also on my list for people who I wish could get a fraction of the internet fame and money that has attached itself to Eli.






> He seems to still be doing stuff as found from a quick Twitter search, I hope he's living his best life. (That being said, allusions to medical problems make me worried for him. But I worry a lot naturally.)


It's been bad, but not life threatening. A nasty combo of things that are probably too much to go into here but that he has gone into a lot of detail about for those who care to look it up.




> _From information he shared with his blog so I don't feel creepy repeating:_
> He lost something like 150 lbs after his doctor said he was in first stage heart failure. It always sounded like he'd turned his health around, but dealing with the repercussions would be a lifelong thing. I believe he moved to Canada because it would be an easier dual-citizenship path than for Wednesday to come to the US, here's hoping the Canadian medical system does him right.


That's one medical crisis behind the current one I believe.

----------


## SaintRidley

> Most pop culture reference age like fine milk near a fireplace.


Considering this one is already 4 months since the film released and over a month since it hit general streaming on Disney+, it's already aged that much. Just... wow.

I cannot think of a single strip of any major comic which manages to be this pointless, this bad at actually getting a joke across, and bad at maintaining any level of narrative pace. It's quite uniquely bad in that way.

----------


## -D-

I enjoy Elis' dungeons. The traps and mechanics can be quite interesting. E.g. Shield of wonder, Maze of Many.

But her art and writing leave much to be desired.

Edit: Whoever said to prefer Goblins over Unsounded, I really have to wonder... Why? The biggest complain about Unsounded is that I have no complaints. People just don't want to talk about train that's on time, has great pacing, and art. And characters. People want to discuss latest train wreck.

----------


## Dragonus45

> I enjoy Elis' dungeons. The traps and mechanics can be quite interesting. E.g. Shield of wonder, Maze of Many.
> 
> But her art and writing leave much to be desired.
> 
> Edit: Whoever said to prefer Goblins over Unsounded, I really have to wonder... Why? The biggest complain about Unsounded is that I have no complaints. People just don't want to talk about train that's on time, has great pacing, and art. And characters. People want to discuss latest train wreck.


Personally my biggest issue with Unsounded was just not actually liking a lot of the characters. They could all go fall in a pit and I wouldn't mind. Well, not the one undead guy. He is cool.

----------


## Kish

Of all the things that one can criticize about the comic, I am boggling at the shamelessness of the "please buy me a new $4500 drawing rig" post. I don't know what Rich Burlew or any other webcomic spends on their drawing computer--possibly because none of the others I know are quite so overt about passing those costs along to any readers who are willing to pay them.

----------


## Dame_Mechanus

> Of all the things that one can criticize about the comic, I am boggling at the shamelessness of the "please buy me a new $4500 drawing rig" post. I don't know what Rich Burlew or any other webcomic spends on their drawing computer--possibly because none of the others I know are quite so overt about passing those costs along to any readers who are willing to pay them.


I mean, I can't even find anything that would price a new tablet that highly; you have to be buying something obscenely powerful for that kind of cost, even factoring in the conversion to Canadian currency. Like, really top-end stuff seems to sit around $1500 USD, which is around $2000 Canadian, and that's when you're just buying something blazingly expensive and price is no object. My wife has an excellent, huge drawing tablet that didn't cost nearly that much. (I want to say it was a fifth of that, at most.)

But, you know, she's apparently raised that much money and then some, so... I don't even know? Maybe someone thought this would make the comic update faster again? I can only guess.

----------


## Lurkmoar

> Personally my biggest issue with Unsounded was just not actually liking a lot of the characters. They could all go fall in a pit and I wouldn't mind. Well, not the one undead guy. He is cool.


Same. I noped out fairly quick. To be honest, permanent death would probably be a blessing for Undead Duane.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Of all the things that one can criticize about the comic, I am boggling at the shamelessness of the "please buy me a new $4500 drawing rig" post. I don't know what Rich Burlew or any other webcomic spends on their drawing computer--possibly because none of the others I know are quite so overt about passing those costs along to any readers who are willing to pay them.


A quick Google when it happened suggested that we'd be looking at 1.5k-2k for a top-end one, adding a few hundred for a bespoke stand and other goodies brings us to about 2.5k, which is I believe what she actually asked for?

Other webcomic creators seem to have two benefits here: being better with money, and a faster update schedule. Even The Giant has more frequent updates, even if only about twice as fast. So it wouldn't shock me if their income was a bit higher, they put a bigger proportion into savings, and they specifically set aside money to regularly upgrade. Elli's post makes it seem like she's used the same tablet throughout the entire comic, while it wouldn't surprise me if Dan Shive has replaced his/their setup every two to five years (keeping the old one as a backup, of course).

----------


## Murk

> Whoever said to prefer Goblins over Unsounded, I really have to wonder... Why? The biggest complain about Unsounded is that I have no complaints.


Oh no, I definitely did not mean that I _prefer_ Goblins over Unsounded. 

I said Goblins (especially at the earlier strips) was more _accessible_. That's just a generous way of saying Goblins is simpler. It's easier to read. Unsounded is quite heavy, right? 
That's not a criticism of Unsounded but it _is_ a compliment of Goblins.

----------


## Gez

> Unsounded is quite heavy, right?


The themes explored include terrorism, slavery, racism and religious intolerance, totalitarian population control, human sacrifice, war, rape, child trafficking; and thanks to the fantasy element we can add body horror and magical mind control in the mix. So yes.

As much as Goblins can be perceived as overindulging in its protagonists' suffering, things are still so much worse in Unsounded.

----------


## Kish

> A quick Google when it happened suggested that we'd be looking at 1.5k-2k for a top-end one, adding a few hundred for a bespoke stand and other goodies brings us to about 2.5k, which is I believe what she actually asked for?


You don't have to ask me if what I said is accurate, you know. You can check for yourself.

----------


## Vinyadan

There really isn't a clear upper limit for how much a drawing tablet costs. The first factor is Wacom vs knockoffs, then you have size, whether it's just a screen or an actual all-in-one PC (in which case you might also have different components), and finally whether it has complete touch or just stylus functionality (and the kind of stylus functionalities).

3,500 USD is a lot of money, but not too much. A Wacom 24 inch with touch capability would have been 2,800 USD, add in 400-500 USD for a Wacom stand, it's already 3,200-3,300 USD.

----------


## Keltest

> There really isn't a clear upper limit for how much a drawing tablet costs. The first factor is Wacom vs knockoffs, then you have size, whether it's just a screen or an actual all-in-one PC (in which case you might also have different components), and finally whether it has complete touch or just stylus functionality (and the kind of stylus functionalities).
> 
> 3,500 USD is a lot of money, but not too much. A Wacom 24 inch with touch capability would have been 2,800 USD, add in 400-500 USD for a Wacom stand, it's already 3,200-3,300 USD.


And apparently Elli lives in the middle of Nowhere, Canada right now? So shipping costs are fairly high.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> You don't have to ask me if what I said is accurate, you know. You can check for yourself.


I was at work and didn't have the time to check. It's somewhat separate to my main point, that she apparently had no plan in place for when her drawing tablet failed (and it was going to fail eventually). It's at least in theory important enough to how she makes money that having no contingency for it is really weird.

----------


## Keltest

> I was at work and didn't have the time to check. It's somewhat separate to my main point, that she apparently had no plan in place for when her drawing tablet failed (and it was going to fail eventually). It's at least in theory important enough to how she makes money that having no contingency for it is really weird.


When you don't have several thousand dollars in reserve cash, making such a contingency is somewhat less than feasible.

----------


## -D-

> The themes explored include terrorism, slavery, racism and religious intolerance, totalitarian population control, human sacrifice, war, rape, child trafficking; and thanks to the fantasy element we can add body horror and magical mind control in the mix. So yes.
> 
> As much as Goblins can be perceived as overindulging in its protagonists' suffering, things are still so much worse in Unsounded.


Other than child sacrifice and totalitarian population control, Goblins has the same if not similar themes. Although rn Unsounded does feature a lot more of them, owning to the nature of their main villain (Elemental of Pain 'n Suffering).




> Personally my biggest issue with Unsounded was just not actually liking a lot of the characters. They could all go fall in a pit and I wouldn't mind. Well, not the one undead guy. He is cool.


That's a really curious take. I thought Sette would resonate with more people. I always found her more interesting than Duane, because he kind of made up his mind. Her choice between her Da and Duane was the interesting part of the series.

----------


## Traab

> A quick Google when it happened suggested that we'd be looking at 1.5k-2k for a top-end one, adding a few hundred for a bespoke stand and other goodies brings us to about 2.5k, which is I believe what she actually asked for?
> 
> Other webcomic creators seem to have two benefits here: being better with money, and a faster update schedule. Even The Giant has more frequent updates, even if only about twice as fast. So it wouldn't shock me if their income was a bit higher, they put a bigger proportion into savings, and they specifically set aside money to regularly upgrade. Elli's post makes it seem like she's used the same tablet throughout the entire comic, while it wouldn't surprise me if Dan Shive has replaced his/their setup every two to five years (keeping the old one as a backup, of course).


On the giants update schedule, I have to wonder, how much goodwill does he have just by having this popular forum website connected to it? I mean, when I stopped to think about the time between updates it made me wonder if id really be reading comics like goblins or OotS if I wasnt here talking about them and being reminded of their existence so often. As an example, I was a big read of Least i Could Do. But I just stopped reading it at one point and forgot it existed till a random facebook post reminded me and I had to binge the full covid mess plus a bit before to catch back up. I left around the time he bought a cow and named it Robert Moo-ler. /facepalm

----------


## Fyraltari

> On the giants update schedule, I have to wonder, how much goodwill does he have just by having this popular forum website connected to it? I mean, when I stopped to think about the time between updates it made me wonder if id really be reading comics like goblins or OotS if I wasnt here talking about them and being reminded of their existence so often.


I can't talk for anybody else, but I regularly check webcomics like _Theia Mania_ or YAFGC, that have an update schedule on par or worse than that of OOTS, that I don't think are as good and don't have specific forums (or least none that I frequent). So yeah, I think that even without the forums, the Giant would enjoy more goodwill than Elli's. His stuff is just that better than hers.

----------


## The Glyphstone

People still donate to the Patreon for_ Gone With The Blastwave_, which is currently at something like 3 years since it updated.

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> People still donate to the Patreon for_ Gone With The Blastwave_, which is currently at something like 3 years since it updated.


I wonder how many of them are people who actually forgot they have that pledge going on...

----------


## Anteros

> On the giants update schedule, I have to wonder, how much goodwill does he have just by having this popular forum website connected to it? I mean, when I stopped to think about the time between updates it made me wonder if id really be reading comics like goblins or OotS if I wasnt here talking about them and being reminded of their existence so often. As an example, I was a big read of Least i Could Do. But I just stopped reading it at one point and forgot it existed till a random facebook post reminded me and I had to binge the full covid mess plus a bit before to catch back up. I left around the time he bought a cow and named it Robert Moo-ler. /facepalm


I think a lot of the Giant's goodwill comes from the fact that we know part of his update schedule is due to physical health issues.  There's also the fact that he never asked for money by telling his fans he'd update more often if they donated, which is something Goblins has done several times.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I think a lot of the Giant's goodwill comes from the fact that we know part of his update schedule is due to physical health issues.  There's also the fact that he never asked for money by telling his fans he'd update more often if they donated, which is something Goblins has done several times.


Yeah, it's a mixture of 'I can see why his injury affects his ability to draw' and the fact that every time he's asked for money he's delivered (the reprint Kickstarter and the Patron for the forum). For me personally the ability to easily navigate to individual strips also helps, when I did forget to check for a while I was able to pick up where I left off.

----------


## Daywalker1983

> Yeah, it's a mixture of 'I can see why his injury affects his ability to draw' and the fact that every time he's asked for money he's delivered (the reprint Kickstarter and the Patron for the forum). For me personally the ability to easily navigate to individual strips also helps, when I did forget to check for a while I was able to pick up where I left off.


Elli has clearly health issues too, so that's not it for me. If you go back to the first Goblins thread, it's already the Signature mixture of being merk, airing Personal laundry and begging for money and attention. I remember something about treading water with the Kids on his shoulders. The difference is one of quality and Also professionalism, which Elli lacks badly.

----------


## Steven

Update schedules don't really matter to me. The thing that matters is that I started reading goblins when I was much younger and think it's fair to say that as I've gotten older and consumed more media, I started to see how flawed the writing (and even to a certain extent the art) is. I think that Elli probably makes great TTRPG campaigns, but I think her ability to write good stories without the feedback loop of players is lacking.

Rich on the other hand, is writing a great story. It is funny, it makes you think, it examines subjects that are tricky and handles them well. (mostly, and when there are missteps Rich addresses them, learns, and moves forwards AFAIR anyway)

Elli doesn't do that. And then on top of that she does things like the Tempts Fate debacle where she takes advantage of her fans over and over. I get that making money as a web comic artist is hard, but again we can compare and contrast Rich and Elli and see one person doing it in what I would consider a moral way and another doing some pretty dubious things... 

So why am I still here reading goblins after... I don't even know how long it's been? Well over a decade anyway.

Because I want to know what happens to Dies Horribly. I used to want to know what happens with Forgath and MinMax and the rest, but I don't really any more. The consistent mediocre writing has made me not care about any of the other characters. But Dies Horribly still lives in my brain as I perceived him when I was much younger, before I added the filters that come from consuming media and examining why I like certain things and don't like others.

EDIT: Oh, and I don't think Rich would waste one of his pages on a dumb pop culture reference that isn't funny and will only become less funny over time

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> EDIT: Oh, and I don't think Rich would waste one of his pages on a dumb pop culture reference that isn't funny and will only become less funny over time


I'd bring up the Final Fantasy VI strip, but at least that was years after the game came out. Otherwise yeah, most such references in OotS are maybe two panels long, the only other page long reference I can remember is the Harry Potter one.

----------


## Dame_Mechanus

> I'd bring up the Final Fantasy VI strip, but at least that was years after the game came out. Otherwise yeah, most such references in OotS are maybe two panels long, the only other page long reference I can remember is the Harry Potter one.


And let's be fair, the FFVI strip wasn't about making a joke regarding how dumb the property in question was; it actually established things about the world in the process, to boot. (Airships are a thing and not unusual in this world, for example.) Plus it changed Elan's wardrobe forever after, so technically he's still cosplaying as Locke all these years later.

At least he's more useful in a party.

----------


## Vinyadan

Unrelated, but I was thinking: narratively, it's odd that the characters are going back home to their village, because their narrative home at the start of the story was destroyed in the attack, and, normally, part of the story is that the heroes have to find their own home afterwards (which generally equates bringing back balance).

And then it struck me. The whole male population of the tribe has been wiped out. The men must get back to repopulate. And the men are Ears, who is gay; Vorpal, who is asexual; Thaco, who is impotent; and Complains, who is a short-tempered barbarian-demon.

Oh boy, the tribe is in for some fun time.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Unrelated, but I was thinking: narratively, it's odd that the characters are going back home to their village, because their narrative home at the start of the story was destroyed in the attack, and, normally, part of the story is that the heroes have to find their own home afterwards (which generally equates bringing back balance).
> 
> And then it struck me. The whole male population of the tribe has been wiped out. The men must get back to repopulate. And the men are Ears, who is gay; Vorpal, who is asexual; Thaco, who is impotent; and Complains, who is a short-tempered barbarian-demon.
> 
> Oh boy, the tribe is in for some fun time.


I don't think the whole adult male population of the Cryptic Fall was at the warcamp. And even if so, the tribe probably has children already.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I don't think the whole adult male population of the Cryptic Fall was at the warcamp. And even if so, the tribe probably has children already.


Yeah, I didn't get that impression either. Wasn't there all sorts of different warcamps around the tribe's territory, and isn't their point to draw enemies to them instead of the village (meaning their society is set up with the expectation that the warcamp might get wiped out)? 

Mind you, the idea might be 'not all of the warcamps will get wiped out,' and that might not be the case this time.

----------


## BaronOfHell

> And then it struck me. The whole male population of the tribe has been wiped out. The men must get back to repopulate. And the men are Ears, who is gay; Vorpal, who is asexual; Thaco, who is impotent; and Complains, who is a short-tempered barbarian-demon.
> 
> Oh boy, the tribe is in for some fun time.


Let's not forget mr. Horribly. Which reminds me, is he aware the camp was wiped?

I sure recall he didn't seem to particularly enjoy his time in the war camp, but even then, if his motivations are the same as the other survivors, I expect him to either travel to the war camp, or if he's aware of its current operational state, go straight for the village.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Let's not forget mr. Horribly. Which reminds me, is he aware the camp was wiped?


Duv tried to make him chief, which means he thinks the camp was even more wiped than it was

----------


## Daywalker1983

Thaco is Impotent?

----------


## Morgaln

> Thaco is Impotent?


I think that's a reference to the pillar of lust. I'd interpret that not as impotence but as lack of sex drive, but it probably comes down to the same effect.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I think that's a reference to the pillar of lust. I'd interpret that not as impotence but as lack of sex drive, but it probably comes down to the same effect.


By far the best part of the page is that Big Ear's sexuality is past over to focus on Complains's fetish.

And Thaco's words do imply it's a loss of libido, not physical ability.

----------


## Daywalker1983

> By far the best part of the page is that Big Ear's sexuality is past over to focus on Complains's fetish.
> 
> And Thaco's words do imply it's a loss of libido, not physical ability.


...which I find pretty demeaning the way it is shown here. Considering how he fights i find it Strange to consider him done with Lust and Sex. Plenty of life still in him.

----------


## Keltest

> ...which I find pretty demeaning the way it is shown here. Considering how he fights i find it Strange to consider him done with Lust and Sex. Plenty of life still in him.


It may or may not be intentional, but Thaco's physical condition compared to the old pages has improved dramatically once he took monk levels. Which is to say, its a recent development.

----------


## Daywalker1983

> It may or may not be intentional, but Thaco's physical condition compared to the old pages has improved dramatically once he took monk levels. Which is to say, its a recent development.


Yes, that's true... I just typed an incredibly snarky reply, not to you, but concerning the writing. I sighed and deleted it, but sometimes i feel this Comic is just horrible all around.

----------


## Murk

> It may or may not be intentional, but Thaco's physical condition compared to the old pages has improved dramatically once he took monk levels. Which is to say, its a recent development.


Maybe if he takes a couple more monk levels he'll be horny again, too!

----------


## Fyraltari

> Maybe if he takes a couple more monk levels he'll be horny again, too!


Monk levels increasing libido seems counter-intuitive.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Maybe if he takes a couple more monk levels he'll be horny again, too!


I mean, it is considered a legitimate method of developing ki  :Small Tongue: 

It's also feasible that Thaco is actually demi or something else,and he's jumping to conclusions when the pillar shows nothing for him.

----------


## Kornaki

> It's also feasible that Thaco is actually demi or something else,and he's jumping to conclusions when the pillar shows nothing for him.


I would be pretty shocked if the authorial intent was that people don't know their own sexual preferences,  and he just guessed wrong.

----------


## Vinyadan

> I don't think the whole adult male population of the Cryptic Fall was at the warcamp. And even if so, the tribe probably has children already.





> Yeah, I didn't get that impression  either. Wasn't there all sorts of different warcamps around the tribe's  territory, and isn't their point to draw enemies to them instead of the  village (meaning their society is set up with the expectation that the  warcamp might get wiped out)? 
> 
> Mind you, the idea might be 'not all of the warcamps will get wiped out,' and that might not be the case this time.


If there are multiple warcamps existing at the same time, I don't recall any mention of them, although it would make a lot of sense.

A problem in general is that we don't know much about how Goblins live. We got a pretty good look at life at the warcamp, but we don't know anything about the village. This is also important when it comes to how the Goblins would recover from such a massive loss of life. For example, do they normally bear multiple children at once? How long do they need to reach maturity? How long does pregnancy last? How do familial relationships work? None of the members of the GAP ever mentioned brothers or sisters, nor immigration from other tribes.

----------


## Gez

> Let's not forget mr. Horribly. Which reminds me, is he aware the camp was wiped?
> 
> I sure recall he didn't seem to particularly enjoy his time in the war camp, but even then, if his motivations are the same as the other survivors, I expect him to either travel to the war camp, or if he's aware of its current operational state, go straight for the village.


In a "we need to repopulate our clan" scenario, it is Ears who will need to go straight for the village.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Vinyadan

> In a "we need to repopulate our clan" scenario, it is Ears who will need to go straight for the village.


I can imagine his spirit of self-sacrifice being very useful for the clan.

"Ears, I can't believe you banged Lacks Hygiene! Why did you do it?"

"So others don't have to."  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I can imagine his spirit of self-sacrifice being very useful for the clan.
> 
> "Ears, I can't believe you banged Lacks Hygiene! Why did you do it?"
> 
> "So others don't have to."


The thing is, in my mind, Lacks Hygiene is male. Which honestly just makes it funnier.

----------


## Daywalker1983

https://mobile.twitter.com/EllipsisG...84377148329984

Of course she didnt get a tablet. Of course there is a son Story and a promise for faster Updates... And people comforting her, saying it's okay.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> https://mobile.twitter.com/EllipsisG...84377148329984
> 
> Of course she didnt get a tablet. Of course there is a son Story and a promise for faster Updates... And people comforting her, saying it's okay.


Yeah, at this point I'm kind of not interested in the reasons. The patron is apparently charging per page rather than per month and so, let's be honest, a faster update schedule in the first place would have given them the money for all of this. At this point I'm just waiting for the second GoFundMe when her tablet finally does and updates stop for at least six months.

----------


## -D-

Fool me once...

----------


## Keltest

I think the moral of this story is that choosing to be a starving artist with a lifestyle and/or conditions that result in significant expenses is a bad life choice.

----------


## Dame_Mechanus

> Yeah, at this point I'm kind of not interested in the reasons. The patron is apparently charging per page rather than per month and so, let's be honest, a faster update schedule in the first place would have given them the money for all of this. At this point I'm just waiting for the second GoFundMe when her tablet finally does and updates stop for at least six months.


When the paratextual stuff happening around the comic is more interesting than the actual comic, it's probably time to stop reading.

Yes, this is directed at me as much as anything.

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> https://mobile.twitter.com/EllipsisG...84377148329984
> 
> Of course she didnt get a tablet. Of course there is a son Story and a promise for faster Updates... And people comforting her, saying it's okay.


Ah yes "I wanted to get the tablet, but I needed the money for something else, sorry"... Why does this feel like classic Ellie?

Also, I notice how their clothes dryer was broken for months, but the moment the washing machine broke down, they absolutely had to get a new one...

----------


## Vinyadan

Looool...

I have to say, however, that the idea of printing books wouldn't be that bad. Nowadays, one can just use Kickstarter to have people book a copy. It means not having to deal with the danger of unsold copies, and you don't even have to advance money, since you use what the backers give you. In this case, I think rewards would be unnecessary (how long has it been since a Goblins book was available?), and, the more people sign in, the lesser the cost of printing each copy. Make sure you have a profit margin on the per copy cost, specify that postage will be paid by backers, and add a higher cost tier for signed copies, and you have some good money on your hands.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I think the moral of this story is that choosing to be a starving artist with a lifestyle and/or conditions that result in significant expenses is a bad life choice.


I think there should be a second moral to go along with that: you can't make money from your art if you're not creating art 




> Ah yes "I wanted to get the tablet, but I needed the money for something else, sorry"... Why does this feel like classic Ellie?
> 
> Also, I notice how their clothes dryer was broken for months, but the moment the washing machine broke down, they absolutely had to get a new one...


Clothes dryers are significantly more of a luxury than washers, so if you've got the space to hang up clothes I can see leaving it for over half a year. But yeah, it does feel like once the washing machine broke they took the excuse of 'well if we have to replace one anyway...'

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> Looool...
> 
> I have to say, however, that the idea of printing books wouldn't be that bad. Nowadays, one can just use Kickstarter to have people book a copy. It means not having to deal with the danger of unsold copies, and you don't even have to advance money, since you use what the backers give you. In this case, I think rewards would be unnecessary (how long has it been since a Goblins book was available?), and, the more people sign in, the lesser the cost of printing each copy. Make sure you have a profit margin on the per copy cost, specify that postage will be paid by backers, and add a higher cost tier for signed copies, and you have some good money on your hands.


But that requires effort. Posting a sad story on Twitter is much easier. Even moreso if you have a Gofundme going already...




> Clothes dryers are significantly more of a luxury than washers, so if you've got the space to hang up clothes I can see leaving it for over half a year. But yeah, it does feel like once the washing machine broke they took the excuse of 'well if we have to replace one anyway...'


Arguably, if you constantly have money issues and - apparently - have some room to dry clothes, you could consider skipping the dryer. Saves both the upfront cost and electricity ;)

----------


## Vinyadan

> But that requires effort. Posting a sad story on Twitter is much easier. Even moreso if you have a Gofundme going already...


Yep, I see a large influx of donations after the tweet. 500 CAD + a large single donation of 1,300 CAD.

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> Yep, I see a large influx of donations after the tweet. 500 CAD + a large single donation of 1,300 CAD.


Well, I certainly can be throwing away money on random crap, but this is a whole other level...

----------


## Dragonus45

> Ah yes "I wanted to get the tablet, but I needed the money for something else, sorry"... Why does this feel like classic Ellie?


I used to give Ellipsis money, I even knew it was getting used for various home things because she was honest about what she needed it for whether it was for the comic or just **** she needed. Not anymore, on both counts.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Did she ever get the laser hair removal? I don't care about her transition beyond 'I know people gave her money for this, did she just spend it on a new oven?' but it would still be nice to know.

----------


## Daywalker1983

> I think the moral of this story is that choosing to be a starving artist with a lifestyle and/or conditions that result in significant expenses is a bad life choice.


I have a Hard time seeing her as an artist nowadays. She has become an Online personality giving away nude pictures on her second Twitter while being years to late to Blog about it on geocities. I guess we will soon See an Onlyfans Pop up and her attention seeking has come full circle.

----------


## Daywalker1983

> I used to give Ellipsis money, I even knew it was getting used for various home things because she was honest about what she needed it for whether it was for the comic or just **** she needed. Not anymore, on both counts.


Why did you give her money?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I have a Hard time seeing her as an artist nowadays. She has become an Online personality giving away nude pictures on her second Twitter while being years to late to Blog about it on geocities. I guess we will soon See an Onlyfans Pop up and her attention seeking has come full circle.


An OnlyFans seems too honest. Maybe a GoFundMe for a new router where she uploads a photo with one less item of clothing every milestone.

Also third Twitter, you can now get Elli nudes without any danger of being interrupted by her side project.

----------


## Daywalker1983

> An OnlyFans seems too honest. Maybe a GoFundMe for a new router where she uploads a photo with one less item of clothing every milestone.
> 
> Also third Twitter, you can now get Elli nudes without any danger of being interrupted by her side project.


I just saw that there is a third twitter already, or is that what you were getting at?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I just saw that there is a third twitter already, or is that what you were getting at?


Of course there's a third Twitter already, it's the only one I follow. It has more meaningful updates than her secondary business (i.e. the boobs outnumber the strips).

----------


## Divayth Fyr

So, seeing gow the Gofundme is now at 9,721 CAD (aka well over double what was needed for the tablet), any ideas what kind of crisis will prevent the money from going to tablet this time?

----------


## Anteros

I honestly just have a hard time even caring at this point.  Anyone stupid enough to still give her money at this point deserves to have their money stolen anyway.

----------


## Dame_Mechanus

> Of course there's a third Twitter already, it's the only one I follow. It has more meaningful updates than her secondary business (i.e. the boobs outnumber the strips).


I didn't know there was a third Twitter and now I'm even sadder than before.

Well, not sad, precisely. More like disappointed. Predictably disappointed.

----------


## Vinyadan

> An OnlyFans seems too honest.


I don't think OnlyFans is a realistic option because of the oversharing. The idea is that you have to keep the goods hidden behind a paywall, and oversharing goes in the opposite direction. The case in which it might work is if Twitter has some restrictive policy on its content that would need the images to be hosted on another service, but then it would be easier to just go to reddit.

EDIT: By the way, can you people read posts from Twitter accounts without logging in? I used to be able to read posts, but now I can't, as I scroll I just get a window asking me to log in (this also is the case for big public personalities like JK Rowling).

----------


## Keltest

> I don't think OnlyFans is a realistic option because of the oversharing. The idea is that you have to keep the goods hidden behind a paywall, and oversharing goes in the opposite direction. The case in which it might work is if Twitter has some restrictive policy on its content that would need the images to be hosted on another service, but then it would be easier to just go to reddit.
> 
> EDIT: By the way, can you people read posts from Twitter accounts without logging in? I used to be able to read posts, but now I can't, as I scroll I just get a window asking me to log in (this also is the case for big public personalities like JK Rowling).


No, I think twitter just changed its policy. I can get like 2 in before it tries to convince me to sign up. Which is exceptionally annoying given that some people use twitter to broadcast actual news stuff sometimes.

----------


## Gez

> No, I think twitter just changed its policy. I can get like 2 in before it tries to convince me to sign up. Which is exceptionally annoying given that some people use twitter to broadcast actual news stuff sometimes.


If you're on a computer, you can use "inspect element" or however it's called in your browser to just delete the blocking sign up element. That's what I do because I refuse to sign up for Twitter.

----------


## Keltest

> If you're on a computer, you can use "inspect element" or however it's called in your browser to just delete the blocking sign up element. That's what I do because I refuse to sign up for Twitter.


oh really? thanks, thats really nice to know.

----------


## tomaO2

I took a quick look at the latest page. As soon as I started reading Multiverse of Madness, I started skipping the dialogue. Didn't Elli say that these are real people, and that they aren't being played by players? I thought that was the new meta of the world, that we would be ignoring all evidence that players are a real thing. 

Even if I ignore that though, this update is just utterly useless filler._ EDIT: and I say this as a person that watched the movie, and actually liked it. I'm the target for these jokes, but it just took me right out of the comic._ 

Also, as in terms of art, I will never forgive making the goblins into a bunch of baby faces.




> https://mobile.twitter.com/EllipsisG...84377148329984
> 
> Of course she didnt get a tablet. Of course there is a son Story and a promise for faster Updates... And people comforting her, saying it's okay.


Huh. She posted that on her buisness account only. I generally haven't been reading that as I was under the assumption that anything important posted there would also be posted on the trans account. Oh well, live and learn.





> EDIT: By the way, can you people read posts from Twitter accounts without logging in? I used to be able to read posts, but now I can't, as I scroll I just get a window asking me to log in (this also is the case for big public personalities like JK Rowling).


There are some chrome extensions that can take care of this issue. I was using Brave but it seems like it got disabled by Chrome. I just downloaded "Breakthrough Twitter Login Wall" and that seems to also be stopping the log in requirement. 




> Yeah, at this point I'm kind of not interested in the reasons. The patron is apparently charging per page rather than per month and so, let's be honest, a faster update schedule in the first place would have given them the money for all of this. At this point I'm just waiting for the second GoFundMe when her tablet finally does and updates stop for at least six months.


You don't need a second go fund me when the first one is still active, MONTHS after the goal was reached. All that needed to happen was a little sob story, a link for the go fund me again, and donations just come rolling in. Mainly one or two donators that shell out the majority of the money needed. There is a small group that is very willing to shell out the big bucks for whatever donation drive Elli has going.

Interestestingly, I think it's the same person that donated the big bucks both times. We got an anonymous donator that gave 1,300$ twice. Once when this whole thing started, and again after the plea for more money. 




> Did she ever get the laser hair removal? I don't care about her transition beyond 'I know people gave her money for this, did she just spend it on a new oven?' but it would still be nice to know.



Laser hair removal? Which one was that, again? Wait a minute, I wrote down all her Go Fund Me drives...

*1.  Help Elli Get A New Drawing Tablet​. 9,700 raised. Created May 29, 2022. (open)
*--Wow, that is a LOT of money raised. Ongoing, money raised was spent on other things, which caused a second round of fundraising.

*2. Rescue My Friend June 4,076 raised. Created Jan , 2022. (closed)
*--We got _one_ update on this. Apperently, the money was used as intended.


*3. Help Elli Qualify For Bottom Surgery 5,918 raised. Created Nov 20, 2021. (closed)
*--This must be the laser surgery one. Let me look this up...
--Information deleted when campaign closes. Right, forgot about that. Checking Archive.org. One capture. Thank you, whomever did that.
--https://web.archive.org/web/20211202012150/https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-elli-qualify-for-bottom-surgery

--Yep. That's the one. I am pretty sure Elli never gave any public updates on this donation drive. I don't recall her talking about getting bottom surgery though, so... who knows? She also stated that she wanted to get voice surgery awhile back, which was the stated reason she did more frequent updates for a year or so. As far as anyone knows, she never got that surgery either. Wonder what she spent the money on? 

--Honestly, I think it's amazing that Elli has managed to live while working so little. She spent years doing almost nothing, where did she get the money to keep living?

*4. Elli's Transition Surgery $21,138 CAD raised. Created Oct 17, 2019 (closed)
*--Elli never gave an official announcement on this, but did do a lot of bragging, and posted photos on her trans account, so we know she got this done.

----------


## Keltest

As far as where the money goes, I kind of doubt that the people who donate are actually specifically invested in seeing a specific material return on their investment so much as just helping Elli out generally. In which case, good for them for being charitable I guess? It'd not like they're buying a book or something.

We're I the kind of person with a pet charity project and that sort of disposable income, I can't honestly say I would be more than mildly annoyed, at worst, if my donation was spent on a different emergency than the specific one I was reacting to.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Why did you give her money?


Because I liked the content, I liked Eli and felt sympathetic about a lot of her problems, and at various times I could afford to toss ten or fifteen bucks over and rewards used to be promised and delivered on often enough I didn't feel cheated. I know in a lot of ways the first kickstarter was her being taken advantage of to a degree as much as her fans but it's still feels like the turning point where she realized she didn't need to deliver and fans really would just keep defending her even when nothing delivered.

----------


## JadedDM

> If you're on a computer, you can use "inspect element" or however it's called in your browser to just delete the blocking sign up element. That's what I do because I refuse to sign up for Twitter.


A trick I learned is that when the pop-up appears, click on 'log in.'  Then when it asks for your login, 'x' out of it.  Then you can resume normal scrolling again.  This works on PC and on mobile.

----------


## SaintRidley

Honestly, the third twitter account is probably the best content Ellie has produced in years. At least it's honest about what it is, it seems to actually make her happy, and the pics are good (they certainly make me hopeful for the results of my own transition). Bonus: the tweets aren't a slog of misery porn with bad pacing and meandering plotlines. They're just regular nudes and don't even qualify as porn of any kind.

Someone mentioned an OnlyFans might be too honest for her, and that may be. But even so, I feel like if she had the slightest mind for proper promotion and business about it, she would probably make more compelling and lucrative content if she abandoned the comic and went all in there. It might be better for her mental health too, given the pressure the comic has exerted in that area historically.

----------


## Keltest

> Honestly, the third twitter account is probably the best content Ellie has produced in years. At least it's honest about what it is, it seems to actually make her happy, and the pics are good (they certainly make me hopeful for the results of my own transition). Bonus: the tweets aren't a slog of misery porn with bad pacing and meandering plotlines. They're just regular nudes and don't even qualify as porn of any kind.
> 
> Someone mentioned an OnlyFans might be too honest for her, and that may be. But even so, I feel like if she had the slightest mind for proper promotion and business about it, she would probably make more compelling and lucrative content if she abandoned the comic and went all in there. It might be better for her mental health too, given the pressure the comic has exerted in that area historically.


I suspect that as soon as it became a job, her enthusiasm for it would drop sharply. Which is fair, nobody wants to do their fun on someone else's schedule. But I think she just doesn't have a strong work ethic, frankly. She does it when she's cornered or when she has total freedom to ignore it if she wants, and anything in between just doesn't motivate her.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> As far as where the money goes, I kind of doubt that the people who donate are actually specifically invested in seeing a specific material return on their investment so much as just helping Elli out generally. In which case, good for them for being charitable I guess? It'd not like they're buying a book or something.
> 
> We're I the kind of person with a pet charity project and that sort of disposable income, I can't honestly say I would be more than mildly annoyed, at worst, if my donation was spent on a different emergency than the specific one I was reacting to.


I would agree. I have income in excess of my needs, and have given to causes large and small, including some struggling artist and the like. Even when supposedly buying art or the like, it isn't the artwork itself, and the goal is getting them back on their feet, not a specific emergency. 

That said, I'm pretty careful about these things, because in a lot of these cases, the individual in question are stuck in a chaotic life and will always have another emergency. In many cases, I think it would be better if things fell further apart a bit, and some reassessment/adjusting to a new reality might occur. I have not followed the ups and downs of Elli's personal life* to the point where I can pass judgement on whether that's the case here.
*I have people I know face to face whom I can spend my money on before I provide charity-patronage to webcomic artists.

----------


## sihnfahl

> I don't recall her talking about getting bottom surgery though, so... who knows?


Posted back in February that the wait list for the surgery by a reputable surgeon is long, and they're still waiting. COVID restrictions on voluntary surgical procedures probably lengthened things.

----------


## Divayth Fyr

Surprisingly it seems Ellie did get a new tablet. One of her posts included an... amusing line.




> The ancient tablet that I'm using now, is slowing me down too much. I couldn't wait any longer.


Yeah, I'm sure _the tablet_ was to blame...

----------


## Keltest

> Surprisingly it seems Ellie did get a new tablet. One of her posts included an... amusing line.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'm sure _the tablet_ was to blame...


In fairness, if working with the tablet was a slog, that would certainly exasperate any motivation issues.

----------


## Kish

And in fairness, twelve years old does make a tablet pretty ancient.

Not that she needed a $4500 tablet, a claim that continues to boggle me, if possible even more so given that she is provably able to do her work on a twelve-year-old tablet.

----------


## Anteros

> In fairness, if working with the tablet was a slog, that would certainly exasperate any motivation issues.


You could quite literally carve comics into stone with a rock faster than she updates.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> You could quite literally carve comics into stone with a rock faster than she updates.


Cave Comics really jumped the shark when they switched to blowing paint out of a bone.

But yeah, even if the tablet is a decade old, I'm still putting the blame on Elli for not replacing it 5+ years ago. I get the desire to get the most out of expensive tech, but but there comes a point where programs become too resource intensive for it.

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> Not that she needed a $4500 tablet, a claim that continues to boggle me, if possible even more so given that she is provably able to do her work on a twelve-year-old tablet.


Actually, the tablet is under 4k, since there is also a stand, and that alone costs almost 500$ USD (and IIRC, the 4,5k figure was for CAD). Of course the cynical part of me wonders whether it was strictly neccessary (and the only available option) or just a way to push even more of her expenses on others...




> In fairness, if working with the tablet was a slog, that would certainly exasperate any motivation issues.


Which is fair, but at the same time, this is kinda her job. Good luck procrastinating this much anywhere else with the excuse "I'm not too motivated" ;P

----------


## Keltest

> Which is fair, but at the same time, this is kinda her job. Good luck procrastinating this much anywhere else with the excuse "I'm not too motivated" ;P


Benefits of self employment. The down side of course is that Elli has nobody to blame but herself when the work doesnt get done and the money doesnt come in.

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> Benefits of self employment. The down side of course is that Elli has nobody to blame but herself when the work doesnt get done and the money doesnt come in.


Ah, but clearly the _tablet_ was to blame, not her. Now I guess we'll move to something like wrong star alignment...

----------


## Keltest

> Ah, but clearly the _tablet_ was to blame, not her. Now I guess we'll move to something like wrong star alignment...


I know its a poor craftsman who blames his tools, but as somebody who also works with technology, it becomes a genuine burden to try and use equipment thats dying. If we're going to criticize elli's business practices and work ethic, we should be fair about it.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Ah, but clearly the _tablet_ was to blame, not her. Now I guess we'll move to something like wrong star alignment...


Clearly her local power station is getting on a bit.




> I know its a poor craftsman who blames his tools, but as somebody who also works with technology, it becomes a genuine burden to try and use equipment thats dying. If we're going to criticize elli's business practices and work ethic, we should be fair about it.


It's not that a good craftsman can use bad tools well, it's that they've made sure their tools are fit for purpose.

So yes, I am willing to criticise Elli for not having suitable tools. There might be reasons why she didn't want to get a new tablet, but she was still using bad equipment.

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> I know its a poor craftsman who blames his tools, but as somebody who also works with technology, it becomes a genuine burden to try and use equipment thats dying. If we're going to criticize elli's business practices and work ethic, we should be fair about it.


Part of the self-employment package - she is the one responsible for the tools she is using. If the tablet was dying for so long, she clearly should have tried to do something about it sooner.

----------


## Keltest

> Part of the self-employment package - she is the one responsible for the tools she is using. If the tablet was dying for so long, she clearly should have tried to do something about it sooner.


such as spending the money she doesnt have?

I dont really get the criticism here. People are going after her for needing help getting a new tablet, and then also now attacking her for not getting a new tablet.

----------


## Daywalker1983

> Benefits of self employment. The down side of course is that Elli has nobody to blame but herself when the work doesnt get done and the money doesnt come in.


Yeah, not since she quit on us so spectacularly.

----------


## Traab

> Actually, the tablet is under 4k, since there is also a stand, and that alone costs almost 500$ USD (and IIRC, the 4,5k figure was for CAD). Of course the cynical part of me wonders whether it was strictly neccessary (and the only available option) or just a way to push even more of her expenses on others...
> 
> 
> Which is fair, but at the same time, this is kinda her job. Good luck procrastinating this much anywhere else with the excuse "I'm not too motivated" ;P


If you are going to get crowd funded for new tech, might as well get the absolute best quality highest end gear you can raise the money for. Im sure eli could have gotten a cheaper tablet and stand, but if she can raise the cash for the best, might as well get it. You can always buy the previous generation of it if donations are lower than the goal.

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> I know its a poor craftsman who blames his tools, but as somebody who also works with technology, it becomes a genuine burden to try and use equipment thats dying. If we're going to criticize elli's business practices and work ethic, we should be fair about it.


Yeah as someone who uses an art tablelt & makes digital art I can say that using old/crappy tools to do stuff can be an absolute nightmare, I used to do my art on an old computer that would crash half the time if I had more than 1 tab open in photoshop, totally ruined my work ethic.

Swapping tablets can also feel weird, when I replaced my old one with a much better new one it took me a good month or more to really get used to the new size, feel of the pen and everything. I can definitely understand how bad/busted tools can kill someone's work ethic.


What I don't quite understand is, if her tablet is -that- bad, why she's not just replaced it with a 'relatively cheap' tablet rather than the super expensive ones if she keeps needing to use money for other life essentials. Is it known what sort of tablet she currently uses?

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> What I don't quite understand is, if her tablet is -that- bad, why she's not just replaced it with a 'relatively cheap' tablet rather than the super expensive ones if she keeps needing to use money for other life essentials. Is it known what sort of tablet she currently uses?


Some Cintiq - I don't think there were any specifics beyond that.
*Spoiler*
Show







> If you are going to get crowd funded for new tech, might as well get the absolute best quality highest end gear you can raise the money for. Im sure eli could have gotten a cheaper tablet and stand, but if she can raise the cash for the best, might as well get it. You can always buy the previous generation of it if donations are lower than the goal.


Eh, I still find it iffy, especially after she spent the money raised for the tablet on other things...

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Eh, I still find it iffy, especially after she spent the money raised for the tablet on other things...


To be fair she got like another $4000 from the GoFundMe, and I'm sure there was at least a few hundred left over from the boiler/washing machine/dryer/car fiasco. I'm just surprised she didn't have to spend it all on new windows or something.

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> Some Cintiq - I don't think there were any specifics beyond that.
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eh, I still find it iffy, especially after she spent the money raised for the tablet on other things...



Ohh that looks quite fancy, I wonder what issue she's even having with it?  I can imagine replacing it being expensive tho, those tablets with a screen on them cost so much.

----------


## remetagross

Touching comic between MinMax and Kin.

----------


## The Patterner

> Touching comic between MinMax and Kin.


Is it bad that I find myself only really caring about these two in a comic named Goblins?

At least one of them isn't human...

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Is it bad that I find myself only really caring about these two in a comic named Goblins?
> 
> At least one of them isn't human...


Not specifically. The two of them have some of the the most developed personalities in the comic, as well as one of the more interesting relationships. Also, MinMax is kind of the epicenter of one of the strip's primary themes -- a monster-hunter realizing that the monsters actually have personalities, can be good people (and that humans can be bad people/be the bad guys), and are worthy of respect (and love). It's too bad that, for the most part, the Goblins proper aren't this interesting, but it's not that uncommon. 'Reformed second tier bad guy is more interesting than the supposed protagonist' is a storytelling issue that has shown up at times in lots of media (from the Buffyverse to Batman and X-men comics to the latest She-Ra to a heck of a lot of anime).

----------


## sihnfahl

> 'Reformed second tier bad guy is more interesting than the supposed protagonist' is a storytelling issue that has shown up at times in lots of media (from the Buffyverse to Batman and X-men comics to the latest She-Ra to a heck of a lot of anime).


Mostly, I think, because there's little leeway in behavior for the protagonist.  You know how they'll act in most situations.  The exact mechanisms may differ from time to time, but they rarely deviate from their established behavior.

With 'reformed' ones, they have to stop, think and make an effort in times of stress.  You don't know what they'll do, exactly, because each major experience is a test - do they do 'right' or do they slip back to their old ways?

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> Is it bad that I find myself only really caring about these two in a comic named Goblins?
> 
> At least one of them isn't human...


They're easily the best part of the comic imho, so won't blame you. 

Is it me or was this update pretty quick after the previous one? New tablet actually helping with art speed, or have I just been so busy that time passed by faster than I noticed?  :Small Yuk:

----------


## Kornaki

If we start getting two comics a week because it was the tablet holding back the schedule the whole time I will die.

----------


## Divayth Fyr

Until proven otherwise, I'll credit the speed to the "shiny new toy" effect :P

----------


## Gez

Update speed might be improved but the pacing sure didn't. It's an entire page about looking at a door.

----------


## Steven

I'm all for being charitable when it comes to giving people the benefit of the doubt, but the things is Elli has shown that they're unable to deliver comics, rewards, and basically anything at all in a reasonable timeframe.

The issue here isn't that the ****ty tablet would make her feel less motivated, it's that to the outside she's ALWAYS unmotivated and dropping the ball.

I can't even remember when I started reading goblins, but it was back in Goblin slayer times which I think was  the mid 2000s? I've been waiting for this comic to go somewhere for almost 20 years.

It's the constant excuses and rationalising of not delivering on the product she's selling me that has eroded my sympathy and patience over the course of almost two decades. That's roughly half of my life.

On the current comic: I detest MM so I don't find this cute or adorable, I just find it annoying that he's soooo dumb and that Kin finds it endearing

----------


## Traab

Ok so wow thats some fast updating. *Spoiler*
Show

Lets try to figure this out, she said something false and that made it true maybe? So perhaps the solution is to declare the door is open. Also I dont like the looks of all that red stuff dripping down. Is this more demonic influence? Or is it part of the trap of this room?

----------


## Neoriceisgood

I'm going to laugh if the new tablet actually results in this massive of a boost to update speed, this is a solid pace honestly.

----------


## 137beth

After having this comic on my list to try for years, in the last few days I finally chugged through the archive and I am now caught up!  So now I get the slow wait like all of you have had for awhile.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I'm going to laugh if the new tablet actually results in this massive of a boost to update speed, this is a solid pace honestly.


Give it a few weeks, I'm sure the new tablet euphoria will wear off.




> After having this comic on my list to try for years, in the last few days I finally chugged through the archive and I am now caught up!  So now I get the slow wait like all of you have had for awhile.


Don't worry, the comic updates only once a month, but there's lots of stuff to moan about in-between updates!

----------


## Taevyr

So, new comic. For now, the tablet continues showing its worth in terms of update speed. Let's hope it stays that that way.

*Spoiler*
Show

And yeah, pretty clear that "speak true" means anything you say ends up being perceived as true by you, or something like that. Could be the key to opening the door, or it could mean that saying "the door is open" will result in the speaker acting like a fly unable to grasp why it can't get beyond a window.

----------


## Gez

> Could be the key to opening the door, or it could mean that saying "the door is open" will result in the speaker acting like a fly unable to grasp why it can't get beyond a window.


What I'm expecting is that it doesn't really open the door, but you can still pass through it as if it were open while you're in the trance. This way you Schrödinger the door into being both open (for you) and closed (for others) so you spoke something that is both true and false.

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> So, new comic. For now, the tablet continues showing its worth in terms of update speed. Let's hope it stays that that way.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> And yeah, pretty clear that "speak true" means anything you say ends up being perceived as true by you, or something like that. Could be the key to opening the door, or it could mean that saying "the door is open" will result in the speaker acting like a fly unable to grasp why it can't get beyond a window.


It'd be pretty wild if this kept up honestly, like ... yeah this is a solid update speed. Pretty good even.

Not sure what to say about today's page, Minmax accidentally making a smart move in saying that.


/edit

I also wonder if Minmax can break this puzzle, the man could probably say abject untrue horse**** and believe it with all his heart.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

You know, at first I honestly thought she'd started uploading partially finished pages again.

----------


## Vinyadan

Princess Blanket sounds familiar, maybe there was a series of tweets about her in one of the accounts.

----------


## remetagross

> What I'm expecting is that it doesn't really open the door, but you can still pass through it as if it were open while you're in the trance. This way you Schrödinger the door into being both open (for you) and closed (for others) so you spoke something that is both true and false.


I predict that's gonna be that.

----------


## Quild

> You know, at first I honestly thought she'd started uploading partially finished pages again.


The same, exactly.

----------


## smuchmuch

> What I'm expecting is that it doesn't really open the door, but you can still pass through it as if it were open while you're in the trance. This way you Schrödinger the door into being both open (for you) and closed (for others) so you spoke something that is both true and false.


Also it may matter who and/or when is telling the truth and who lies.
Look at Minimax's armor on this page. When Klin say "speak false" or "speak true" it changes color becoming either turquoise or white. When Klin calls herself princess blanket and then start beleiving them, his armor is turquoise. same while he snapps her out with the truth. 
My guess is that if she said "speak truth" or "speak false" once more, things will reverse.

----------


## Kantaki

> Also it also matter WHO is telling the truth and who lies.
> Look at Minimax's armor on this page. When Klin say "speak false" or "speak true" it changes color becoming either turquoise or white. When Klin calls herself princess blanket and then start beleiving them, his armor is turquoise. same while he snapps her out with the truth. 
> My guess is that if she said "speak truth" or "speak false" once more, the roles will  be reversed (and Minimax armor will change color to white)


The armor changes colours according to the last colour Minmax says.

----------


## Kish

> The armor changes colours according to the last colour Minmax says.


Yes, this. It changed to white when he said "white," didn't change at all when he said "turkey," did change to turquoise when he actually said "turquoise," and will remain that color until he names another color. Nothing but the established and explicitly stated behavior of that armor.

----------


## Gez

> Also it may matter who and/or when is telling the truth and who lies.
> Look at Minimax's armor on this page. When Klin say "speak false" or "speak true" it changes color becoming either turquoise or white. When Klin calls herself princess blanket and then start beleiving them, his armor is turquoise. same while he snapps her out with the truth. 
> My guess is that if she said "speak truth" or "speak false" once more, things will reverse.


That's just a property of Minmax's armor. When he says "white", his armor turns to white. When he says correctly "turquoise" (after being corrected for his "turkey" malapropism), his armor turns turquoise. When he entered the room, his armor was green, a color it has had since 2019.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> Also it may matter who and/or when is telling the truth and who lies.
> Look at Minimax's armor on this page. When Klin say "speak false" or "speak true" it changes color becoming either turquoise or white. When Klin calls herself princess blanket and then start beleiving them, his armor is turquoise. same while he snapps her out with the truth. 
> My guess is that if she said "speak truth" or "speak false" once more, things will reverse.


Fret not, I have arrived in this thread to explain how Minmax's armor works!

...Oh, that's been taken care of. Maybe I could explain his sword instead?

----------


## The Glyphstone

Won't that make it weaker, since its power grows the less he understands about it?

----------


## Fyraltari

> Won't that make it weaker, since its power grows the less he understands about it?


It's okay, he wouldn't make it through the first sentence, let alone paragraph, without giving up.

Also, it's interesting that the armor will not change color if Minmax is wrong about what a color is called.

----------


## Morgaln

That armor raises a lot of questions as soon as you stop and think about it; what use is there even in changing the color? Especially when it can happen randomly because you happen to say a word that is a homophone of a color ("I blew (blue) my chances" or "I read (red) this book as a kid."). Or asking for particular fruits, like an orange or a plum. Or admiring the smell of a rose, or of lavender. 
Accents must play havoc with the magic of that armor. Speaking of which, how does the armor even know what language you speak? For example, "sort" is Danish for black, so completely random words might be colors in other languages.
Of course these characters are probably not speaking English at all, but the same effect would apply to the languages of their world. We do know that different languages exist, since canonically swear words are from the demon language and thus objectively evil (never mind that demons are canonically not evil, but get portrayed as such all the time).

----------


## Sholos

I would assume the magic of the armor accounts for accents, spoken language, and homophones. As to what use it is? There doesn't necessarily have to be a practical use. It's just something fun.

----------


## tomaO2

HOLY UPDATES BATMAN. I guess it's that time again to talk about Goblins Animated. We got a new update a week ago. Previous update was at the end of December. 

The majority of the update has to do with personal stuff, that really doesn't have any place here, but the end did have this little nugget. 




> *The World Fell In Around My Ears... But How Was Your Summer?
> *
> In the midst of this we also got a partner to bring us in to the WB and pitched a few other streamers. All a no go so far.
> 
> However...
> 
> Hollywood has had some massive upheaval in the animation space, especially in the last few months, notably at the WB/HBO. But also with Netflix making massive cutbacks and Amazon really holding back on fantasy based project because with WoT, Rings of Power and Critical Role leading their rosters, they are quite sword and sandal heavy at the moment. So right now we are waiting for all the waves on all the fronts to settle a bit. Both in our personal/family spaces as well as letting Hollywood figure itself out before we wade back into the mix.
> 
> We will let you know when we start heading back into the LA LA pitch-mix, thank you as always for being the best fans ever, and I look forward to showing you this thing soon.
> ...


Nothing happening for now, but Matt seems to think that things will get better after all the dust settles. Heh. 

_*I*_ think that by the time the dust settles, there will be a new order on what sort of animations are going to be allowed. I think if this animation had any chance of getting done, and it was always a long shot, that chance is completely gone. Amazon's television, in particular, might be completely smashed if Rings of Power, their billion dollar gamble, is tanking as bad as I'm hearing from the rumor mill.  





> Princess Blanket sounds familiar, maybe there was a series of tweets about her in one of the accounts.


  I think it was on the trans account. Regardless, they were a series of very cringe posts. I think said that it might be fun to make Princess Blanket into a children's story. Pretty sure I recall a picture of the princess, as well. Now she is taking her dumb, off the cuff, twitter thoughts and putting them in the comic.

By the way, I see that you can still donate for that 4k tablet, even though it's already been bought.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

The time for the Goblins Animated Series was like ten years ago when the comic was still relevant. I'm not sure the game style or assumed race selection the comic is based on has been popular for at least a decade, let alone the game.

Like, I wouldn't be expecting Girl Genius to get a cartoon anymore, but the GURPS book actually did get made. But IIRC that happened because Steve Jackson is a fan of the comic, so I suppose we'd have to hope some executive likes Goblins?

Which, considering the comic just came out of a period of updating every 1-2 months, might be a tall order.

----------


## tomaO2

Wait. What's this about GURPS being a comic? Googling. Checking wikipedia... Don't see anything about this.

----------


## Gez

> Wait. What's this about GURPS being a comic? Googling. Checking wikipedia... Don't see anything about this.


It was about a comic being GURPS, not the other way around.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/girlgenius/

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> By the way, I see that you can still donate for that 4k tablet, even though it's already been bought.[/FONT]


Indeed. And the last post on the comic page is still the sob story about needing a new tablet. How... unsurprising considering Ellie's usual mo...

----------


## Vinyadan

It's funny that this update comes so close to the one by Lackadaisy. Luckily, they seem to be in better waters and the short film has a probable release date of early 2023.

----------


## mucat

> ...but the (Girl Genius) GURPS book actually did get made.


Well holy crap, it really did.  Thanks for the heads-up; gonna order it right now.

----------


## Vinyadan

New update.

*Spoiler*
Show

The way Kin describes her body change feels very visceral and it probably can be related to both her and her author's pasts.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Spoiler*
Show

So all you need to do to pass is touch something turquoise and say "the door is open" or touch something white and say "the door is closed"? That sounds too easy. Also, what do you think are the limits of this? Could you say "there is 1, 000, 000 gold coins buried in backyard?

----------


## Dragonus45

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> So all you need to do to pass is touch something turquoise and say "the door is open" or touch something white and say "the door is closed"? That sounds too easy. Also, what do you think are the limits of this? Could you say "there is 1, 000, 000 gold coins buried in backyard?


*Spoiler*
Show

It's probably illusory, but would have to be a high level phantasm if it were.

----------


## Fyraltari

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> It's probably illusory, but would have to be a high level phantasm if it were.


*Spoiler*
Show

 I don't know, Minmax didn't believe she was Princess Blanket but he can see her legs, so I don't think it's an illusion.

----------


## Dragonus45

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
>  I don't know, Minmax didn't believe she was Princess Blanket but he can see her legs, so I don't think it's an illusion.



*Spoiler*
Show

Depending on how the trap is targeted that would all still make sense. I think it's probably not an illusion because I'm not sure how an illusion would help them actually bypass the trap, but phantasms are kinda BS and could easily make you feel limbs that aren't there and such. :EDIT: Wait I'm not thinking of phantasms it's something else in mind.

----------


## Traab

Thsi is reminding me of an old D&D story I remember from awhile back about  how a dm pulled a mean trick on the party with illusions and after that they started going everywhere saying things like, "I disbelieve the walls" and such, trying to basically roll on everything just in case it was another illusion they didnt want to fall for. As for the door itself, its either the most powerful object in the world, capable of altering reality casually and endlessly, or its some sort of suggestion/illusion/mind control field effect where they only think the door is locked shut but they think its shut so hard they literally cant even try to open it or walk through. I think that one is more  likely, but yeah, this is pretty out there. Honestly, its the first thing that would pop into my head if I just did the whole "you have legs" thing. There is no way a random trapped door can do that for real. And it clearly messes with your mind as proven by the princess blanket bit.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Thsi is reminding me of an old D&D story I remember from awhile back about  how a dm pulled a mean trick on the party with illusions and after that they started going everywhere saying things like, "I disbelieve the walls" and such, trying to basically roll on everything just in case it was another illusion they didnt want to fall for. As for the door itself, its either the most powerful object in the world, capable of altering reality casually and endlessly, or its some sort of suggestion/illusion/mind control field effect where they only think the door is locked shut but they think its shut so hard they literally cant even try to open it or walk through. I think that one is more  likely, but yeah, this is pretty out there. Honestly, its the first thing that would pop into my head if I just did the whole "you have legs" thing. There is no way a random trapped door can do that for real. And it clearly messes with your mind as proven by the princess blanket bit.


It's a common story, I've been both the player and the DM for it several times and when I run public games that are above beginner levels "I roll to disbelieve" get's said at least a couple times randomly a session.

----------


## Gez

I am disappointed this is an infinite wish machine instead of an actual puzzle.

Also, Kin's two-toed feet look really weird.

And like, Kin could have touched Minmax on his armor and said something like "your right eye is healed". She's supposed to be super smart and she doesn't see the obvious exploit.

----------


## Fyraltari

> And like, Kin could have touched Minmax on his armor and said something like "your right eye is healed". She's supposed to be super smart and she doesn't see the obvious exploit.


The fact that she figured how this works this fast with this little information is ridiculously smart. As for the exploits, it's better to test you're right about the mechanism before trying to exploit it.

----------


## Pax1138

Yeah, I doubt she wanted their test to be body-altering experiments on each other.  Now that they're more sure, they can figure out way to exploit this or reasons not to.  Probably will only be effective in a limited range around the door or something.

Also a little squicked out by the beat panel of Minmax taking in an eyefull and not sure if I need to be.

----------


## Lord Torath

So do you think she'll get her flesh tail back, or her indestructible Maze of Many tail back?

----------


## Morgaln

> So do you think she'll get her flesh tail back, or her indestructible Maze of Many tail back?


Knowing this comic, it will probably be some horrible third alternative that is her legs fused into a kind of weird, tail-like structure. I'm only half joking here.


On another note, after Kin turned into Princess Blanket, Minmax said "Nothing happened." That was an untruth that he said while touching turquoise. So by the rules as understood so far, that should have undone the effect and return Kin to normal. Since it clearly didn't, there seem to be more rules to this.

----------


## Gez

> So do you think she'll get her flesh tail back, or her indestructible Maze of Many tail back?


I doubt she's getting her original tail back, that would be contrary to all precedent. Elli has long held that the characters getting physical traces of their adventures was an important part of _Goblins_. This is also why Minmax's eye will not be healed.

----------


## Kish

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
>  I don't know, Minmax didn't believe she was Princess Blanket but he can see her legs, so I don't think it's an illusion.


It's very strange. If it just turned everything spoken while touching turquoise true and changed nothing beyond that, Kin's first "lie" should have had the effect: Now she and Minmax, and everyone else who knows of her and is within the range of the effect, believe her name is Blanket, she has the title of Princess, and she's the queen of a place called Blanketland (which no one can remember any real details of). No forgetting what she was there for, no starting to crawl off, no "Minmax knows this isn't true."

But clearly it could change Kin physically when Minmax said something physical, not abstract.

----------


## Vinyadan

> It's very strange. If it just turned everything spoken while touching turquoise true and changed nothing beyond that, Kin's first "lie" should have had the effect: Now she and Minmax, and everyone else who knows of her and is within the range of the effect, believe her name is Blanket, she has the title of Princess, and she's the queen of a place called Blanketland (which no one can remember any real details of). No forgetting what she was there for, no starting to crawl off, no "Minmax knows this isn't true."
> 
> But clearly it could change Kin physically when Minmax said something physical, not abstract.


Such an effect sounds very similar to the practical implications of the oblivion holes.

----------


## Keltest

> It's very strange. If it just turned everything spoken while touching turquoise true and changed nothing beyond that, Kin's first "lie" should have had the effect: Now she and Minmax, and everyone else who knows of her and is within the range of the effect, believe her name is Blanket, she has the title of Princess, and she's the queen of a place called Blanketland (which no one can remember any real details of). No forgetting what she was there for, no starting to crawl off, no "Minmax knows this isn't true."
> 
> But clearly it could change Kin physically when Minmax said something physical, not abstract.


Perhaps it didnt affect Minmax because he had no idea what it actually meant. Between it being weird and him just being kind of dumb, theres no place for him to even begin understanding what she meant.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Also a little squicked out by the beat panel of Minmax taking in an eyefull and not sure if I need to be.


I guess what saves it for me is that he did notice, looked away, and warn her; and only changed that behavior after she said she didn't care. It's still him delaying giving her her tail/prolonging her suffering, but that's him being distracted by something he was told was not unokay to look at, so I'm categorizing as a separate (still suboptimal, but not so squicky) failing. All of this explanation I'm doing kinda makes me feel squickily like I'm explaining/mansplaining why 'akshually' it is technically okay and how someone else shouldn't be upset about it, so that kinda reinforces to me that it's certainly dancing close to the line if nothing else.




> On another note, after Kin turned into Princess Blanket, Minmax said "Nothing happened." That was an untruth that he said while touching turquoise. So by the rules as understood so far, that should have undone the effect and return Kin to normal. Since it clearly didn't, there seem to be more rules to this.


I wonder if there's some level of intent-judging going on, and the dungeon caught Minmax saying it in an observational, rather than declarative, sense.




> It's very strange. If it just turned everything spoken while touching turquoise true and changed nothing beyond that, Kin's first "lie" should have had the effect: Now she and Minmax, and everyone else who knows of her and is within the range of the effect, believe her name is Blanket, she has the title of Princess, and she's the queen of a place called Blanketland (which no one can remember any real details of). No forgetting what she was there for, no starting to crawl off, no "Minmax knows this isn't true."
> 
> But clearly it could change Kin physically when Minmax said something physical, not abstract.


Is it possible that it did make it so that she was the queen of Blanketland (which maybe doesn't have to exist), but didn't make everyone else necessarily retroactively know that?

----------


## Vinyadan

> I guess what saves it for me is that he did notice, looked away, and warn her; and only changed that behavior after she said she didn't care. It's still him delaying giving her her tail/prolonging her suffering, but that's him being distracted by something he was told was not unokay to look at, so I'm categorizing as a separate (still suboptimal, but not so squicky) failing. All of this explanation I'm doing kinda makes me feel squickily like I'm explaining/mansplaining why 'akshually' it is technically okay and how someone else shouldn't be upset about it, so that kinda reinforces to me that it's certainly dancing close to the line if nothing else.


If I thought that we should expect a deeper layer of complexity from Goblins (something which has been disproven a few times), then I would think that MM is kinda spacing out. Yes, he's attacted to female pudenda. But those are human genitals on a woman that he loves and doesn't normally have them. So this for him is a glimpse of a somewhat easier, more normal life. On the other hand, his great journey has been to see beyond Kin's serpentine, monstrous features and find and love the person, so in a way what he is seeing is a huge step back, the realisation of a racist's whish: that all the world should be like him. But we also have to consider that MM's journey towards Kin began when he was talking to Goblinslayer. GS said he had sex with (actually, raped) Kin every night. That was the first time she came into the MM's mental picture as an actor. And his first question was, indirectly, about her genitals: "How does that even work?". So what's happening brings him back to the start and her horrible past. And add to this that Kin, the rape victim, had achieved an invulnerable lower body (after it had been destroyed by none else than an alternate MM who hurt her in a way MM would conceivable have had before Brassmoon), and now is vulnerable again. Not just vulnerable, but actually unable to move coherently; her human body is as alien to her as her monstrous body was to MM.

----------


## Traab

Yeah im going with mental effect, not reality warping. The door is an illusion, but its such a strong one that you cant force yourself to walk through it or just disbelieve it. The only way is to say true "The door is open" or say false "the door is shut" or something along those lines. That breaks the effect and you can walk through. As Neo would say, "There is no door"

----------


## Anteros

I'm going to say that it's not an illusion specifically because actual involuntary body modification is much squickier and also entirely in character for Ellipsis to write about.

----------


## Dame_Mechanus

I've got to be honest, this is the update that is really pushing me _hard_ into "why do I read this comic, again?" territory. And no, it's not just because of any obvious squick value that might come into your mind; it's very clear that Kin isn't upset about what Minmax is seeing, just what has happened to her. (Although I do appreciate the people who are kind of squicked about it, because it really treads into some dubious places with both of these characters.)

No, what bothers me is that all of the pacing issues that have been present for the comic for years are here, and I'm realizing very decisively that... I don't care about these characters. At all. Not one whit.

Yes, Kin and Minmax had some real drama built up. The scene in the Maze of Many was an _excellent_ moment of tension and fallout. It milked the relationship for all it was worth, and there was just the slight hint at the end that this wasn't the absolute ending but the start of something that was going to take time and effort to repair. Except that... it didn't. Kin popped in, and immediately we were informed that _literally all_ of the character development that she needed to have happen took place offscreen, which makes the entirety of that wrenching scene a narrative cul-de-sac with no larger implications. And now we're on the fifth comic in a row which feels like it's trying to say "look, don't you remember how cute these two were together?"

But instead of feeling like their relationship was a slow, developing thing, it now feels like it's just been retrofitted in and wasn't earned. And I don't actually care what happens to them. The plot has been so bloated, so incapable of moving ahead at a reasonable pace, so _bereft_ of weight or intensity... it's like an endless series of setups for something interesting happen and payoffs that are promised but _never arrive._

----------


## Vinyadan

For me, what really left a bad aftertaste from this page is the fact that a character written by a trans person is in immense distress and trapped in a body that isn't hers after her tail was sliced open and she was left with a vagina, which she doesn't mind others seeing. Really wishing all the best right now and that there isn't a terrifying crisis coming.

----------


## sihnfahl

> For me, what really left a bad aftertaste from this page is the fact that a character written by a trans person is in immense distress and trapped in a body that isn't hers after her tail was sliced open and she was left with a vagina, which she doesn't mind others seeing. Really wishing all the best right now and that there isn't a terrifying crisis coming.


I read it as "I don't care what you're seeing, because that's not really a part of ME."

----------


## Keltest

> I read it as "I don't care what you're seeing, because that's not really a part of ME."


I read it as "I dont care what you're seeing because HOLY CRAP PUT MY TAIL BACK THIS IS WEIRD!"

----------


## Vinyadan

I read it as "My lower body is always naked." (I mean, on a conscious level.)

----------


## Fyraltari

There's a question. If your genitals were suddenly replaced by a cloaca (or any other non-human genitals) would you be embarrassed if they were also suddenly made visible?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> There's a question. If your genitals were suddenly replaced by a cloaca (or any other non-human genitals) would you be embarrassed if they were also suddenly made visible?


Possibly after they were turned back. Likely not if I'd just suddenly had my bottom half replaced with chicken legs.

----------


## Radar

> There's a question. If your genitals were suddenly replaced by a cloaca (or any other non-human genitals) would you be embarrassed if they were also suddenly made visible?


To be honest, I would probably be way too busy freaking out over the transformation to have any room for other thoughts and emotions.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Possibly after they were turned back. Likely not if I'd just suddenly had my bottom half replaced with chicken legs.


Luckily, Carl Barks has taught me that odd manduck hybrids don't need pants  :Small Cool:

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Luckily, Carl Barks has taught me that odd manduck hybrids don't need pants


Duly noted.

----------


## Kish

> I read it as "I dont care what you're seeing because HOLY CRAP PUT MY TAIL BACK THIS IS WEIRD!"





> I read it as "My lower body is always naked." (I mean, on a conscious level.)


Yes, these. I'm pretty sure Kin always has a vagina, it was left exposed when her tail got changed into legs she didn't really know how to control, and that wasn't the main thing she cared about because she wanted her legs changed back into her tail.

I also don't think it was particularly significant, for my part. "Kin doesn't care about human nudity taboos" isn't surprising, and neither is "Minmax does."

----------


## Daywalker1983

> I read it as "I don't care what you're seeing, because that's not really a part of ME."


Thats true, but it still carries all the baggage others mentioned, too. What squicked me out Was the disabled girl spreadeagled on the floor With just a pouch covering her pouch, pardon the crudeness. That Was directed at the Reader. Elli could make a lot of patreon money from providing a second Version. It only got worse when minmax ogled her. 

Also its just completely idiotic from top to bottom.

----------


## archon_huskie

I am quite certain that it's an ackward situation and most of you are reading too much into it.

----------


## Vinyadan

New comic. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-16-2022

----------


## Taevyr

Ignoring the implications and everything else we can infer from the door working like this for a moment... this one's pretty damn funny.

----------


## Mastikator

I can see this going two ways, he either goes back next page. Or in several pages there will be this huge overwhelming threat and he deus ex machina the goblins and only then is returned to being human.

----------


## Anteros

I just want to know who build that trap, and why it has enough power to confer godhood.

----------


## Keltest

> I just want to know who build that trap, and why it has enough power to confer godhood.


Assuming they arent just in a big illusion, of course.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Assuming they arent just in a big illusion, of course.


A way to potentially test that would be for Minmax to declare that he has a full head of hair or the like. If this is an illusion than he's still touching turquoise.

----------


## Laurentio III

> I just want to know who build that trap, and why it has enough power to confer godhood.


This being the comic where unholy abomination are used as basic traps and goblins hold magic items that can destroy an army, I'm kind of unimpressed.
Besides, there are gods, lesser gods, minor lesser gods, and then MinMax esploring philosophy.

----------


## Daywalker1983

> New comic. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-16-2022


I cant get my head around how Kin would by now have her tail taken for granted.

----------


## SirSoliloquy

I wonder if godhood minimax will have the same disposition as Psion minimax? Either way, she's obviously going to touch one of the turquoise tiles and make minimax back to normal.

Of course, if they leave this room without at least _trying_ to use its apparent unlimited magical ability to accomplish their main objective, I'll be a bit disappointed.

----------


## Pax1138

Also she seems to have gotten her real tail back, and not the neon green MoM regenerated one.

----------


## SirSoliloquy

> Also she seems to have gotten her real tail back, and not the neon green MoM regenerated one.


I somehow did not realize that -- it's been so long since the MoM that I forgot that was even a plot point.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I somehow did not realize that -- it's been so long since the MoM that I forgot that was even a plot point.


Well, either the door doesn't actually change things so she still has her new tail and it doesn't matter or it actually does change things and she can get it back with a sentence and it doesn't matter.

----------


## Vinyadan

I have to say, this door looks pretty benevolent. It isn't some monkey paw, at least for now.

----------


## Taevyr

Could also be down to Minmax' lucky wording: "you have _your_ tail" removes a lot of room for interpretation.

----------


## Morgaln

The color on that tail is very different from the original olive green, so I'd say it's not really her tail as it was before.

----------


## Laurentio III

Isn't "I can totally see..." a declaration on itself?
To being able to *totally* see is not the same as being able to see.
So the door knows when you are consciously trying to make a complete statement? It's the most benevolent magic item so far!

----------


## Traab

Once this got settled down and confirmation that its actually doing this stuff instead of casting incredibly overpowered suggestion magic on them, the first thing id do is put my hand on turquoise and go "I will be able to carry this door with me wherever I want and make use of its powers in any location." An infinite unrestricted wish granting item like this is absurd and must be harvested.

----------


## Laurentio III

> Once this got settled down and confirmation that its actually doing this stuff instead of casting incredibly overpowered suggestion magic on them, the first thing id do is put my hand on turquoise and go "I will be able to carry this door with me wherever I want and make use of its powers in any location." An infinite unrestricted wish granting item like this is absurd and must be harvested.


"The wish granting and or reality bending power of this item or of the source of this item is transfered to me in a way that allows me conscious, effortless, error-free control and total access, with the option of nullifing any effect at will."

----------


## Steven

Elli may be a lot of things but she is not the kind of GM or writer who is going to hand out unlimited wishes to her characters and not maim them horribly/kill their family and friends/torture them in some way as a cost.

This is going to either be limited in some way or it will cause suffering that offsets any gains.

Which means this is another boring trap room that doesn't change anything important in the story and shows off how hard it is for authors to write characters that are very much smarter or very much dumber than themselves in a believable way.


Random thought that just popped into my mind: MinMax's sword has great potential for a really great scene prior to MinMax dying:

_Imagine a big fight where he is battling away and using the sword by letting go of it and pulling it out of thin air over and over. Suddenly, he lets it drop and instead of it being immediately grabbed by future MinMax it simply falls to the ground with a clang. He stares at it bewildered while Forgath or Kin realise what it means and try to warn him but he just ploughs ahead and is gradually dismembered by whatever creature just as he reaches out his hand to claim back his sword and finish the fight..._

What? I hate MM as a character and enjoy thinking of how he's going to be removed from the comic. We all have our hobbies.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Honestly? The simplest way to limit it would be to not tie the magic to anything we can see. There's nothing saying it can't be running off a magic or buried under the floor.

----------


## 137beth

> The time for the Goblins Animated Series was like ten years ago when the comic was still relevant. I'm not sure the game style or assumed race selection the comic is based on has been popular for at least a decade, let alone the game.
> 
> Like, I wouldn't be expecting Girl Genius to get a cartoon anymore, but the GURPS book actually did get made. But IIRC that happened because Steve Jackson is a fan of the comic, so I suppose we'd have to hope some executive likes Goblins?
> 
> Which, considering the comic just came out of a period of updating every 1-2 months, might be a tall order.


Isn't Girl Genius getting a video game?  
Still agree a big studio funding an animated series for Goblins is unlikely.

----------


## Traab

I read a light novel once where the protagonist had just killed what amounts to a restrained god. He figured the chains used to keep it drained of energy would be REALLY handy killing off the rest of his kind so he dug them out of the wall. Turned out they lost all power once removed from the wall so they were useless to him. Im sure something like this would be the same, again, thats assuming this actually IS some omnipotent device capable of altering reality beyond that of wish spells. (I do NOT suggest casting wish and saying, "I want to be a god")

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Isn't Girl Genius getting a video game?  
> Still agree a big studio funding an animated series for Goblins is unlikely.


I have no clue. But Girl Genius is basically The Big Webcomic, so if it can't get a mainstream cartoon I'll be surprised if any webcomic can. If a GG computer game comes out I might play it, but everything is a bit wait and see.

Even if Goblins: Life Through Their Eyes: Please Donate to Eli's GoFundMe: The Series does get made I'm really not holding out any hope for decent quality animation.

----------


## DaFlipp

> I have no clue. But Girl Genius is basically The Big Webcomic, so if it can't get a mainstream cartoon I'll be surprised if any webcomic can. If a GG computer game comes out I might play it, but everything is a bit wait and see.
> 
> Even if Goblins: Life Through Their Eyes: Please Donate to Eli's GoFundMe: The Series does get made I'm really not holding out any hope for decent quality animation.


We live in a world where Marry Me got made into a live-action rom-com starring Jennifer Lopez and Owen Wilson (presumably with the comic's screwball comedy toned waaaaaaaay down, unless the advertisements were *incredibly* misleading), so presumably anything can happen.

----------


## Maryring

> Isn't Girl Genius getting a video game?  
> Still agree a big studio funding an animated series for Goblins is unlikely.


Yeah. I know the dev team. They're the same guys who made Teslagrad. The game actually looks kind of fun.

----------


## archon_huskie

> We live in a world where Marry Me got made into a live-action rom-com starring Jennifer Lopez and Owen Wilson (presumably with the comic's screwball comedy toned waaaaaaaay down, unless the advertisements were *incredibly* misleading), so presumably anything can happen.


Which is weird to me because back when it was still being published, Bobby Crosby the author, seemed to be under the impression that his Zombie/Vampire story Last Blood was soon to be made into a summer blockbuster (It didn't). He also just did not accept any sort of criticism of his work back then so I'm surprised he was able to work with any studio to get Marry Me made into a film.

----------


## Vinyadan

New page.

https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-17-2022

----------


## Fyraltari

*Spoiler*
Show

Well, let's hop no-one inside that thing ever figured out what their creator is like.

----------


## Godskook

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Well, let's hop no-one inside that thing ever figured out what their creator is like.


While their god comes from humble origins, he's a noble soul.  Able to defy even his own prejudices.  And he created them seeking their companionship.  What I'm hoping is that they never find out or need to find out about the fickle nature of their existence, that if they're ever removed from this hallway, everything they know and love will vanish.  Presumably Minmax saw to that in the non-moments "during" which he was a god.

----------


## Dragonus45

Even by Goblins standards this is getting a little surreal.

----------


## Keltest

> Even by Goblins standards this is getting a little surreal.


I know Im ready to move beyond this door.

----------


## Fyraltari

> the fickle nature of their existence, that if they're ever removed from this hallway, everything they know and love will vanish.  Presumably Minmax saw to that in the non-moments "during" which he was a god.


I don't think that's how it works. Minmax created a whole universe. Given that his description of the space-time is of the eternalist kind (the future, present and past are all equally real and immutable, we just can't perceive the future) I think he's created that universe's entire history from beginning to end, and that's what they're looking at. So if this universe is destroyed, the people inside wouldn't notice anything because they wouldn't have existed in the first place. I think.

----------


## Traab

Yeah no, this is silly. I dont care if the effects are limited to the hallway, its still an absurd amount of power to be sealed into a magic freaking door. One that makes no sense as it so far surpasses rational thought as to get dumber the more you think about it. Whoever made this door has to have power surpassing godhood in which case, why are they wasting time making trick doors? Minmax spent like 10 seconds as a god and created a universe. This is the sort of obstacle id expect when trying to raid mt olympus or something, Actual reality altering deities crafting defenses made to stand up against those actually capable of fighting them. Not random dungeon #765378 in the hellscape world the GAP lives in thats beatable at level 5.

----------


## Vinyadan

I liked the page because it opened a whole new world. However, it doesn't have much to do with Goblins, which suggests I'm tired with it. But it would have been nice if Minmax had told Kin whether evil really is winning over the multiverse, and why, because, when she mentioned it, it struck me as something that would cause anguish in those who really believed it.

----------


## Murk

> I liked the page because it opened a whole new world. However, it doesn't have much to do with Goblins, which suggests I'm tired with it. But it would have been nice if Minmax had told Kin whether evil really is winning over the multiverse, and why, because, when she mentioned it, it struck me as something that would cause anguish in those who really believed it.


Why? The bad guys are always winning in stories, aren't they? If the heroes are stronger than the villain it isn't a very exciting story. Usually, the villain is stronger so the heroes have to beat the odds (through love and perseverance and all that). 

I do think the concept is just another "oh you know what would be a cool idea?" -idea, which seems to be what most of Goblins is made out of, so I don't want to overanalyse it. But it doesn't feel particularly wrong to me.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Why? The bad guys are always winning in stories, aren't they? If the heroes are stronger than the villain it isn't a very exciting story. Usually, the villain is stronger so the heroes have to beat the odds (through love and perseverance and all that). 
> 
> I do think the concept is just another "oh you know what would be a cool idea?" -idea, which seems to be what most of Goblins is made out of, so I don't want to overanalyse it. But it doesn't feel particularly wrong to me.


Your point of view seems to be as someone external from such a story, like a reader or a writer. What I meant is that Kin believing that the reality she lives in is one where evil wins would be depressing for her, and Minmax, as someone who cares about Kin, would try to explain.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Whoever made this door has to have power surpassing godhood in which case, why are they wasting time making trick doors?


If there was a being that powerful I'd think very carefully before insulting their hobby.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Whoever made this door has to have power surpassing godhood in which case, why are they wasting time making trick doors? Minmax spent like 10 seconds as a god and created a universe. This is the sort of obstacle id expect when trying to raid mt olympus or something, Actual reality altering deities crafting defenses made to stand up against those actually capable of fighting them. Not random dungeon #765378 in the hellscape world the GAP lives in thats beatable at level 5.


The dungeons in the strip have pretty consistently been themed as deadly-but-challenging madcap funhouses for adventurers that don't make sense as to why they are there or why someone would have put the effort into making them (pretty much the dungeons we all made for our PCs as starting DMs -- before we worried about the whys -- and maybe after we stopped worrying about the whys). Whether it's good storytelling or not, something like this is certainly on-brand for the strip as it has been. Mind you, they clearly are about to poke around at the how and why of this in a way that didn't work in those D&D sessions of yore, but it's also on brand for the cast to hang lampshades on the absurdity of their world.

Mind you, this doesn't mean I expect this to be going anywhere especially great. It looks like they are going to explore the concept of this microverse full of beings whose sole purpose is to keep a petty god worshipped and comfortable. I think Futurama explored that with Bender flying through space for eternity and a civilization forming on his butt that thought he was god. Or maybe the XKCD where god is someone being punished to having all their creations have a futile existence. I think it would have been more interesting if they did something like Kin touching the wall and saying 'Kin has the capacity to (but not requirement of) loving MinMax in a manner the same as humans can love one another,' and seeing if anything changes (and exploring the ramifications therein). Or heck, on a simpler level, 'Kin has the capacity to remove her leash and collar without it blowing her head off,' removing them, and seeing if the ability only existing in the corridor does or doesn't mean that the resultant consequences only exist inside the corridor.

----------


## Fyraltari

I think the most important thing right now would be to change the colour of Minmax's armour before he makes another accidental wish.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I think the most important thing right now would be to change the colour of Minmax's armour before he makes another accidental wish.


Honestly at this point he might as well state that he's the smartest person in the multiverse. Then maybe they'll solve this simple puzzle.

...

What happens if Minmax says 'my armour isn't white'?

----------


## sihnfahl

> Or heck, on a simpler level, 'Kin has the capacity to remove her leash and collar without it blowing her head off,' removing them, and seeing if the ability only existing in the corridor does or doesn't mean that the resultant consequences only exist inside the corridor.


Or, even simpler: "Kin's collar is a completely normal, non-magical, non-cursed collar."

----------


## Vinyadan

That's a very good point. Do we know if the collar is still working?

----------


## sihnfahl

> That's a very good point. Do we know if the collar is still working?


We do not, but considering the consequences for being wrong...

Sort of tells you where their minds are.  "Whatever you say can come true..." and they completely overlook the explosive collar latched around her neck.

----------


## Androgeus

> We do not, but considering the consequences for being wrong...
> 
> Sort of tells you where their minds are.  "Whatever you say can come true..." and they completely overlook the explosive collar latched around her neck.


Well one of those people is Minmax and and the other has had to be dealing with Minmax since they figured out what the door does.

----------


## DaFlipp

> Well one of those people is Minmax and and the other has had to be dealing with Minmax since they figured out what the door does.


Yeah, it's easy to forget that we've had weeks to ponder these things, while they've had minutes. And during half of those minutes, the only competent member of the team has been either protecting the sovereignty of Blanketland, coping with the sudden and unpleasant reconfiguration of one-half of her body, or grappling with the theological ramifications of her idiot ex-boyfriend's abrupt ascension to godhood.

----------


## Traab

> Yeah, it's easy to forget that we've had weeks to ponder these things, while they've had minutes. And during half of those minutes, the only competent member of the team has been either protecting the sovereignty of Blanketland, coping with the sudden and unpleasant reconfiguration of one-half of her body, or grappling with the theological ramifications of her idiot ex-boyfriend's abrupt ascension to godhood.


The sheer ramifications of this omnipotent door not unreasonably has knocked any immediate thought out of her head beyond trying to comprehend just how absurd it is. That plus all the things it has already done and what all that MEANS. It might take a few rounds to reach the "Hey, I can use this to remove my collar safely" stage of thinking, because lord knows the first thoughts that would appear in MY mind are more "Lets see just how grandly we can abuse this" Than thinking about the more local problems.

----------


## Vinyadan

Does anyone have ideas for the next thread title? I can't come up with anything.

----------


## Keltest

> Does anyone have ideas for the next thread title? I can't come up with anything.


Goblins: X weeks to open a door, with X being however many it's been in real time as of the new thread.

----------


## Grim Portent

Depending on how you interpret the changes made by the door not persisting once you leave the hall it might not actually be able to remove Kin's collar.

Or rather, it would remove it, but then once she left it would either have never been removed or it would slice her head off retroactively. If left in the corridor it might not revert, but that's still a sword hanging above your head for the rest of your life.

----------


## Laurentio III

> The sheer ramifications of this omnipotent door not unreasonably has knocked any immediate thought out of her head beyond trying to comprehend just how absurd it is. That plus all the things it has already done and what all that MEANS. It might take a few rounds to reach the "Hey, I can use this to remove my collar safely" stage of thinking, because lord knows the first thoughts that would appear in MY mind are more "Lets see just how grandly we can abuse this" Than thinking about the more local problems.


Out of self-preservation, my next "wish" would be "I know how this door exactly works".
So that I can use it to have permanent effect without the usual, cruelly mocking effect of wishes in a fantasy setting.

----------


## Agi Hammerthief

> Depending on how you interpret the changes made by the door not persisting once you leave the hall it might not actually be able to remove Kin's collar.
> 
> Or rather, it would remove it, but then once she left it would either have never been removed or it would slice her head off retroactively. If left in the corridor it might not revert, but that's still a sword hanging above your head for the rest of your life.


she wouldnt remove the collar by saying I have no collar 
but by saying I have a tiny head.
Remove the collar, resize head - permanent effect of removed collar.

----------


## BaronOfHell

As I recall Kin explaining it, Goblinslayer's wording on the mechanics of the collar leads to the most likely scenario being that the collar won't explode, but there has never been an opportunity where it was worth the risk to test it.

However here, if I'm not mistaken, they can simply claim for knowledge about the collar without any need to test if said knowledge is true and yet be confident it is true.

Or at least they'll know if remove curse will actually make the collar explode, and even if it happens to be so, they'll know how to get rid of the collar safely.

Also one would think in the many runs within the maze of many the Kin trio would have encountered at least a couple of Kin's who have had their collar's removed. Though I suppose since they all come from different origins, even if there are Kins who should happen to be able to safely discard their collar, it guarantees nothing.

----------


## Fyraltari

> she wouldnt remove the collar by saying I have no collar 
> but by saying I have a tiny head.


"I have a tiny and still functional head."

----------


## Gez

> "I have a tiny and still functional head."


Much simpler to go "this collar is perfectly mundane and utterly devoid of any sort of curse, contingency, magical effect, psionic charge, hidden mechanism, alchemical substance, or anything else that would make its removal potentially hazardous."

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Or, even simpler: "Kin's collar is a completely normal, non-magical, non-cursed collar."


Ah, great, an even simpler option I didn't think of! Great metaphor for what's happening in the comic.




> The sheer ramifications of this omnipotent door not unreasonably has knocked any immediate thought out of her head beyond trying to comprehend just how absurd it is. That plus all the things it has already done and what all that MEANS. It might take a few rounds to reach the "Hey, I can use this to remove my collar safely" stage of thinking, because lord knows the first thoughts that would appear in MY mind are more "Lets see just how grandly we can abuse this" Than thinking about the more local problems.


There is an interesting bit of psychology to be seen in this. They have, for who knows how long, treated the collar as an immutable force or an unsolvable problem -- all ways they knew of to remove it were too risky to try. Now they have something that has equal finality, and they don't immediately think, 'hey, should we try using this to resolve this issue?' -- even though the collar is one of Kin's most troubling conditions. Along with the other distractions/personality trait to focus more immediately on the ramifications of this door than what it can do for them, I also thing they simply have internalized the notion that there is nothing to be done about the leash. It will be interesting who thinks of this, and when.

----------


## Fyraltari

Also, it's barely been a minute.

----------


## Laurentio III

> Much simpler to go "this collar is perfectly mundane and utterly devoid of any sort of curse, contingency, magical effect, psionic charge, hidden mechanism, alchemical substance, or anything else that would make its removal potentially hazardous."


Still dangerous, depending on _how_ the hypothetical curse is worded and how the door works
Just let say she does as you propose, then passes the door.
If she bring the collar with her and it return cursed, being not worn could activate the curse.

And if she leave it in the room, I wouldn't bet a coin about it not biting her ass (does she *have* one?) later. The room is clean and undamaged, and this leads me to think that it "resets" every now and then. Leaving something behind could or couldn't be even possible. To say, the lack of creature in a permanent state of bliss is suspect. Would you ever leave a room where you can be magically happy all your life? "I'm immortal and in a perennal state of bliss" is _really_ tempting.

So, using magic to defuse the collar is a big "if". The safest road is using the door to study it, so you can defuse it in maximal security.

----------


## Gez

> Still dangerous, depending on _how_ the hypothetical curse is worded and how the door works
> Just let say she does as you propose, then passes the door.
> If she bring the collar with her and it return cursed, being not worn could activate the curse.
> 
> And if she leave it in the room, I wouldn't bet a coin about it not biting her ass (does she *have* one?) later. The room is clean and undamaged, and this leads me to think that it "resets" every now and then. Leaving something behind could or couldn't be even possible. To say, the lack of creature in a permanent state of bliss is suspect. Would you ever leave a room where you can be magically happy all your life? "I'm immortal and in a perennal state of bliss" is _really_ tempting.
> 
> So, using magic to defuse the collar is a big "if". The safest road is using the door to study it, so you can defuse it in maximal security.


Neither leave it, nor bring it out: once it's removed, use your own magic (not door magic) to completely destroy the collar while it's door-magiced to be mundane.

----------


## Laurentio III

> Neither leave it, nor bring it out: once it's removed, use your own magic (not door magic) to completely destroy the collar while it's door-magiced to be mundane.


There could be a "everything you did is reset uppon leaving" magic. It's not a given, but knowing the author writing hystory, would you put your neck on the plate?
Knowledge is, usually, retained.
My case is that this room _needs_ addictional caveats to avoid passerbyes to became gods in the real world. "I'm fluent in the First/Gods/Creation Language" is the first step. Then you unweave the door magic and reform it as it's convenient to you.

----------


## Traab

> Ah, great, an even simpler option I didn't think of! Great metaphor for what's happening in the comic.
> 
> 
> 
> There is an interesting bit of psychology to be seen in this. They have, for who knows how long, treated the collar as an immutable force or an unsolvable problem -- all ways they knew of to remove it were too risky to try. Now they have something that has equal finality, and they don't immediately think, 'hey, should we try using this to resolve this issue?' -- even though the collar is one of Kin's most troubling conditions. Along with the other distractions/personality trait to focus more immediately on the ramifications of this door than what it can do for them, I also thing they simply have internalized the notion that there is nothing to be done about the leash. It will be interesting who thinks of this, and when.


Ehhh not really, iirc it was basically "wait till forgath hits level 5 and can cast remove curse" But that was before all the crazy stuff happened and minmax screwed up and they separated etc.

----------


## Typewriter

> Does anyone have ideas for the next thread title? I can't come up with anything.


"Without Perception, Time is Static!"

From the previous page and I feel like there's a semi-meta reference to the pace of updates in there.

----------


## Gez

> There could be a "everything you did is reset uppon leaving" magic. It's not a given, but knowing the author writing hystory, would you put your neck on the plate?


If _everything_ is reset, then the removed and destroyed necklace would be both undestroyed and unremoved, meaning that its potential curse would not trigger.



> Knowledge is, usually, retained.
> My case is that this room _needs_ addictional caveats to avoid passerbyes to became gods in the real world. "I'm fluent in the First/Gods/Creation Language" is the first step. Then you unweave the door magic and reform it as it's convenient to you.


I think the first step would be "I know fully and exactly everything there is to know about this corridor and the magic effects present within it, including everything that they can do and how they do it and the associated costs and caveats."

----------


## Radar

> I think the first step would be "I know fully and exactly everything there is to know about this corridor and the magic effects present within it, including everything that they can do and how they do it and the associated costs and caveats."


Depending on the GM such a request might be a straight way to your character going catatonic from a rush of revelations not meant for mortal minds. Considering that Minmax survived mentally becoming and stopping being a god, things might be a bit more lenient in that regard.

----------


## Vinyadan

New page https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-18-2022

----------


## Daywalker1983

New Page...

Sometimes i wonder whether elipsis knows what is said about her comic online And tries to lean into it. This must be one of the bleAkest pages, and it has everything, mugging, crying existential dread i wouldnt even know how to top.

----------


## Murk

> Sometimes i wonder whether elipsis knows what is said about her comic online And tries to lean into it.


Yeah, surely this is an intentional self-caricature?
Which can be great, if done right!  

But also: I'm irrationally annoyed by the superfluous commas that appear more and more in the dialogue.

----------


## Cygnia

It wouldn't be Goblins without the overripe wangst  :Small Annoyed:

----------


## Nettlekid

Gotta undercut the existential horror with everyone's favorite made-up large number "scwillions."

----------


## Neoriceisgood

Lmao I was seriously kinda shocked the entire God-thing didn't end in angst or drama, clearly I was too early to celebrate.  :Small Tongue:  :Small Eek:

----------


## Dragonus45

Say what you will about it being a stereotypical Goblins page, but it really does work.

----------


## Daywalker1983

> Say what you will about it being a stereotypical Goblins page, but it really does work.


... in that its not working? :-D

----------


## Keltest

> ... in that its not working? :-D


If it were in any other context than being stuck behind thus freaking door for a month, I think this would be an incredibly poignant character moment for them both, as well as a generally interesting philosophical point.

----------


## Nettlekid

> If it were in any other context than being stuck behind thus freaking door for a month, I think this would be an incredibly poignant character moment for them both, as well as a generally interesting philosophical point.


What annoys me is that the universe-in-a-bottle is undoubtedly going to end up being used as some kind of Chekhov's Gun or plot-solving tool, despite it originating out of a scene of complete nonsense. That's how it always goes. Someone does something stupid and wacky and five real-life years later it turns out to have been of critical importance.

----------


## Vinyadan

I actually like this page a lot. It's true, it contains all Goblinisms -- anguish, crying, mugging, universal pain, all in the face of a ridicolously improbable dungeon puzzle -- but it's different. To me it feels like the first time Goblins has had a grown-up page. (as I have said in the past, I am somewhat bored with Goblins, so I also welcome all changes. I don't really care about them getting beyond the door: what for? Is there a plot to follow?)

I certainly like Minmax being articulate. I actually would enjoy anyone in Goblins talking with this degree of sincerity. Reading this page, I have realised that very few characters in Goblins trust each other enough to speak openly, and, even if they do, it's rarely about themselves (see Thac0 refusing to talk to Complains about his mother). Here Minmax instead is talking fluently about his feelings. And it's something of a blessing for him, because he normally isn't smart enough to read the room or to express himself adequately.

Anyway, I am reminded of Pangloss. "We live in the best of possible worlds!"  :Small Tongue: 

Edit: Thread title proposal: *Goblins XIX: The Best of All Possible Worlds*

----------


## Kornaki

> If it were in any other context than being stuck behind thus freaking door for a month, I think this would be an incredibly poignant character moment for them both, as well as a generally interesting philosophical point.


This reminds me of that one chapter in erfworld, if anyone else remembers when parson tried to cross portal park.  I wonder which door will be stuck at longer ( I don't actually remember if parson made it through, i think he might have failed?)

----------


## Dragonus45

> ... in that its not working? :-D


No, in that it is working.

----------


## Godskook

> This reminds me of that one chapter in erfworld, if anyone else remembers when parson tried to cross portal park.  I wonder which door will be stuck at longer ( I don't actually remember if parson made it through, i think he might have failed?)


He not only made it through, but it nearly killed him as a result.  Irony is he didn't even stay long.

----------


## -D-

> This reminds me of that one chapter in erfworld, if anyone else remembers when parson tried to cross portal park.  I wonder which door will be stuck at longer ( I don't actually remember if parson made it through, i think he might have failed?)


Yup. It's Book 2 iirc. And story got bogged down from there. They did a dance and song routine :P got many people killed and Parson built an army of corpses.
https://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/140
https://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/206

It was 50 pages of comic/text of standing near a door.

----------


## Traab

I also liked this one because its an insight into minmax as a person. When he became god he wanted to give the universe everything he wanted. Unlimited treasure without danger, and love that lasted forever with your perfect partner once you found them. Its really kinda sweet. Then he learned how life doesnt actually have utopia and everything has unintended consequences. But I prefer to focus on how he basically shared with kin exactly what he is after in life, as I doubt she isnt bright enough to read between the lines that he wasnt just talking about fogath and kickasso. Its a simple dream, but a good one. Peace, prosperity, and to be forever with those you love.

----------


## Kish

Also he can know everything and yet strike the worst possible balance between being an interventionist god and a hands-off god.

----------


## 137beth

Knowing lots of information doesn't mean you can make intelligent decisions about what to do with that information.

----------


## Laurentio III

> Knowing lots of information doesn't mean you can make intelligent decisions about what to do with that information.


"I can make intelligent decisions"

----------


## awa

That assumes the intelligence increase does not come with a personality change. Their is no wish that cant be turned against them.

----------


## FireJustice

> What annoys me is that the universe-in-a-bottle is undoubtedly going to end up being used as some kind of Chekhov's Gun or plot-solving tool, despite it originating out of a scene of complete nonsense. That's how it always goes. Someone does something stupid and wacky and five real-life years later it turns out to have been of critical importance.


yeah can kinda see it in the future

*Spoiler*
Show


ding ding ding
we gave a winner
the universe can't leave the room, as it will cease to exist as per rules "the puzzle door can do anything, but only in that place".

The fight with Kore will break into that room, but ofc omnipotent wishes not working anymore because of reasons and plot. But the universe in a bottle is there.
then, Kore tries to get the souls of an entire universe. And explose, because its too much

----------


## DaFlipp

> yeah can kinda see it in the future
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> ding ding ding
> we gave a winner
> the universe can't leave the room, as it will cease to exist as per rules "the puzzle door can do anything, but only in that place".
> ...


A good prediction, I had a similar one. 

*Spoiler*
Show

The souls therein could also end up being fodder for some kind of drama with a demon who comes their way (possibly like *right now* given the comic borders getting all Hellish again). After all, aren't demons claiming souls A Thing in the Goblinsverse? Currently too lazy to dig up the plotline where Dies-Horribly's soul is claimed and abruptly restored, but I remember the general rules being laid out there.  

Depending on how seriously the author takes the fate of the jar-universe's denizens, I suspect either the souls get used as a bargaining chip to contain a demon within that room (they jump at the chance to gain so many souls, but then they can't leave that one room without losing THE POWER OF A SCWILLION SOULS) *or* they end up empowering said demon against the good guys' wishes and drama ensues from deciding whether it's best to leave them in its grip or remove them from the room and therefore poof them out of existence.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> A good prediction, I had a similar one. 
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> The souls therein could also end up being fodder for some kind of drama with a demon who comes their way (possibly like *right now* given the comic borders getting all Hellish again). After all, aren't demons claiming souls A Thing in the Goblinsverse? Currently too lazy to dig up the plotline where Dies-Horribly's soul is claimed and abruptly restored, but I remember the general rules being laid out there.  
> 
> Depending on how seriously the author takes the fate of the jar-universe's denizens, I suspect either the souls get used as a bargaining chip to contain a demon within that room (they jump at the chance to gain so many souls, but then they can't leave that one room without losing THE POWER OF A SCWILLION SOULS) *or* they end up empowering said demon against the good guys' wishes and drama ensues from deciding whether it's best to leave them in its grip or remove them from the room and therefore poof them out of existence.


On an unrelated note it's been a while since not-Walter appeared in the comic...

----------


## ZhonLord

> On an unrelated note it's been a while since not-Walter appeared in the comic...


Don't worry, we'll see more of good old Grinnorarcen when minimax discovers the goblin party is still alive. 

I'm predicting a big final fight over the axe, defeat Kore, summon Grinny, and offer an incapacitated Kore up to the fiend as payment for taking the Axe as many layers of hell deep as possible.

----------


## Radar

> Don't worry, we'll see more of good old Grinnorarcen when minimax discovers the goblin party is still alive. 
> 
> I'm predicting a big final fight over the axe, defeat Kore, summon Grinny, and offer an incapacitated Kore up to the fiend as payment for taking the Axe as many layers of hell deep as possible.


That's actually a pretty good solution to the whole problem. I am wondering though, if the information about the first Axe of Prissan (locking up powerful good entities deep in hell) will be relevant at any point.

----------


## Vinyadan

*cricket sounds*

No, there hasn't been an update. It's been a while, and it actually strikes me as odd.

----------


## Keltest

> *cricket sounds*
> 
> No, there hasn't been an update. It's been a while, and it actually strikes me as odd.


Its the holiday season, as well as winter, and from my understanding they live out in the Canadian wilderness. Could be anything from travel to snow to just plain vacation.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *cricket sounds*
> 
> No, there hasn't been an update. It's been a while, and it actually strikes me as odd.


I guess the new tablet honeymoon period has worn off.

----------


## Morgaln

> Its the holiday season, as well as winter, and from my understanding they live out in the Canadian wilderness. Could be anything from travel to snow to just plain vacation.


Canadian Thanksgiving is in October, so it hasn't really been holiday season for at least four out of the seven weeks since the last update.
But then, why create a comic when the real money is in Gofundme's?

----------


## Murk

I sporadically see some Elli-tweets, and I think there was also an extended holiday to Alabama (???) 

That was indeed gofundme funded, which against all my expectations nobody here pointed out!

----------


## Gez

> That was indeed gofundme funded, which against all my expectations nobody here pointed out!


Perhaps people here have finally gotten bored with Elli's private life?

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> No, there hasn't been an update. It's been a while, and it actually strikes me as odd.


Isn't it just the shiny new toy effect wearing off and business going back to the usual? ;P




> I sporadically see some Elli-tweets, and I think there was also an extended holiday to Alabama (???) 
> 
> That was indeed gofundme funded, which against all my expectations nobody here pointed out!


At this point Elli moving to Onlyfans would feel more honest than the current business model...

----------


## Murk

> Perhaps people here have finally gotten bored with Elli's private life?


That would be even _more_ unexpected!

----------


## Cygnia

Did we finally decide on the next thread title btw?

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> Did we finally decide on the next thread title btw?


"I'm quickly forgetting my godly impotence"?

"It's 1 HP of damage, you'll be fine"?

"Yeah, I want no part of any of that"?

----------


## Kornaki

"Another thread would mean more updates, so no need for a new title"

----------


## Anarchic Fox

I'm pretty sure we GiTP forum residents can take this thread over the post limit just by grousing about fundraisers and the lack of updates.

(My stance: of course the update schedule is ridiculous, but it doesn't give me anything interesting to say.)

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Did we finally decide on the next thread title btw?


I suggest:

Goblins XIX: www.gofundme.com

----------


## Lurkmoar

> I suggest:
> 
> Goblins XIX: www.gofundme.com


Seconded. I haven't thought about this web comic for... whenever the last update was. The only reason I checked it today was because of this thread!

----------


## Morgaln

> I suggest:
> 
> Goblins XIX: www.gofundme.com


Perfect name, this has my vote.

----------


## Agi Hammerthief

I hope I can stick to my New Years Resolution and keep out of the next thread.

so this is would be the perfect title:



> "Yeah, I want no part of any of that"

----------


## ZhonLord

Goblins XIX: It's tough to be a god.

.....
"Friends we're mortal, and a fraud.  Be deified, when really, you're a sham!"
Couldn't resist, it's a catchy song.

----------


## Kornaki

Gofundme gets my vote.

----------


## -D-

Goblins XIX: Only Goblinfans

But GoFundMe is good too.

----------


## Gez

> Goblins XIX: Only Goblinfans
> 
> But GoFundMe is good too.


How about GoBlinMe

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> I suggest:
> 
> Goblins XIX: www.gofundme.com


Don't think any title can be more fitting.

----------


## tomaO2

Gofundme sounds great. I'll make the new thread, if no one minds, and include the go fund me information. Found my old list. Total of 5 gofundmes, including the Alabama, unless I am misssing one.

New Thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...3#post25664613

Latest GoFundMe: https://www.gofundme.com/f/elli-goin...ource=customer


Also, end of year, nice to have a tally of all pages listed on the website. We got 18 for 2022, so that's about 1 update every 2.89 weeks. Any year that manages more than 1 page every 3 weeks I consider a decent output, for this author.

----------

