# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 >  Does "soul and body are one unit" (Outsiders/Elementals) alter various effects?

## hamishspence

Inspired by a digression in a different thread - brought here to avoid derailing that thread further.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#




> Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual natureits soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as _raise dead, reincarnate_, and _resurrection_, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as _limited wish, wish, miracle_, or _true resurrection_ to restore it to life.





> Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual natureits soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as _raise dead, reincarnate_, and _resurrection_, don't work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as_ limited wish, wish, miracle_, or_ true resurrection_, to restore it to life.


Examples of effects that _split_ soul from body (some of these destroy the body as well):

the _Imprison Soul_ spell from _Heroes of Horror_ (removes the soul, puts it in receptacle, body lives, but starts losing 1d4 CON per day)

the Trap the Soul ability of the Demilich:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm



> If the target fails its save, the soul of the target is instantly drawn from its body and trapped within one of the gems incorporated into the demilichs form. The gem gleams for 24 hours, indicating the captive soul within. The soulless body collapses in a mass of corruption and molders in a single round, reduced to dust. If left to its own devices, the demilich slowly devours the soul over 24 hoursat the end of that time the soul is completely absorbed, and the victim is forever gone. If the demilich is overcome before the soul is eaten, crushing the gem releases the soul, after which time it is free to seek the afterlife or be returned to its body by the use of either _resurrection, true resurrection, clone,_ or _miracle._


The _Sanctify the Wicked_ spell from BoED (removes soul, puts it in gem, body crumbles to dust, 1 year later the gem can be smashed, restoring the creature, in a new body, with a new alignment (matching the caster's) and the Sanctified Creature template.


So, what happens in these cases when the creature is an Outsider (without the Native type), or an Elemental?

Does the effect fail? 

Does the body travel to wherever the soul does, as one unit? (so, the body _as well as_ the soul is imprisoned in the receptacle used in the Imprison Soul Spell, the body _as well as_ the soul is in the Demilich's soul gem, the body _as well as_ the soul is imprisoned in the Sanctify the Wicked diamond, and so on?)

Or does "body and soul form one unit" only _matter_ in the context of the creature being _killed_ "When ____ _is slain_, no soul is set loose" with any _magic_ that separates a body from a soul (causing the body to then die or start dying) functioning exactly the same way as with regular living creatures?




And what does this imply for the _Revive Outsider_ spell?

According to _Complete Divine_, the_ reason_ an Outsider cannot be brought back with _Raise Dead_, is that the soul has already rapidly dispersed into its home plane - requiring the power of _True Resurrection_ (or _similar_ magic) to sift through the plane and reconstitute the soul.




> The souls of outsiders and elementals are so intrinsically tied to the essence of their home plane that they evaporate into the fabric of the plane rather quickly. That's why it takes a _true resurrection_ spell to bring them back from the dead; the magic must sift through the plane and reconstitute their dispersed souls.


Does that mean that the _body_ has returned to the home plane and rapidly dispersed as well?


_Revive Outsider_ takes 1 minute to cast. Is it effectively unusable because by the time casting is complete, the body is already gone and dispersed across the home plane (because the body is the soul, both being all one unit?)

Or, should "no soul is set loose" be _ignored in_ this context - allowing an Outsider's corpse to remain solid after its death despite its soul having dispersed, allowing the caster to touch the body, cast the spell, and bring the soul back to the body?

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## Crake

I imagine that the requirement for substance from the outsiders native plane for revive outsider somewhat counts, as outsiders are literally made of the same stuff as their plane.

Regarding effects that affect the soul, i usually have it affect their body too. The possession spell from pathfinder even specificially says that outsiders who use the spell treat it as greater possession, which leaves no body behind while possessing.

It also makes for an interesting interaction when people try to possess outsiders, how would that work? I rule it as not being possible at all, as the outsiders soul simply cannot be displaced from their body.

At the end of the day, you just have to decide what makes sense in context, and just stick with consistent logic and ruling.

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## Doctor Despair

Necrotic Termination is also notable because the tumor digests the victim's soul, which is presumably a lot more impressive to behold if the victim's soul and body are one and the same.

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## Promethean

Even basics Like magic Jar start doing funky things if we take that line literally.

An outsider using that spell would be able to hide themselves in a gem and possess mortals at their discretion without having to worry about the "if your body is too far when the spell ends, you die" clause.

What happens an outsider Psionic true mind-swaps with someone or uses the clone spell? Does the mind-swapped victim's soul just get booted directly to the afterlife? Does the outsider get to possess clones of itself for an extra health bar? Weird things happen when the souls/body values that magical abilities rely on come up {null}.

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## icefractal

There's also the question of whether outsider corpses are even a thing.  From the soul=body description, I'd say no, they just disperse when they die.  

_Except_ that there are various things made from outsider body parts.  Demon/angel blood, grafts, the Demonflesh Golem, etc.  So IDK, it's a big mess if you're trying for a canonical answer.

When I'm running myself - no, there are no outsider corpses, demons go entirely inside the Magic Jar gem, attempting to possess an outsider with Magic Jar just "shunts" them (as if they tried to teleport inside a solid object), and outsider body part items don't exist.

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## Crake

> What happens an outsider Psionic true mind-swaps with someone or uses the clone spell? Does the mind-swapped victim's soul just get booted directly to the afterlife? Does the outsider get to possess clones of itself for an extra health bar? Weird things happen when the souls/body values that magical abilities rely on come up {null}.


Mind swap doesnt technically interact with the soul, you simply swap psychic imprints, so it should work just fine. Outsiders wouldnt be able to clone themselves, which fits in with the line that it takes exceptional magic to bring them back to life, clone simply wouldnt work. Mind jar would probably work exactly as you stated.




> There's also the question of whether outsider corpses are even a thing.  From the soul=body description, I'd say no, they just disperse when they die.  
> 
> _Except_ that there are various things made from outsider body parts.  Demon/angel blood, grafts, the Demonflesh Golem, etc.  So IDK, it's a big mess if you're trying for a canonical answer.


According to the fiendish codex, given enough time, an outsider body WILL eventually dissipate back to its home plane, but the amount of time that takes is highly variable. Its part of why the study of demons is so difficult, because most of the time the corpse dissipates before it can be dissected. One proposed solution is to dimensional anchor the corpse to prevent it from returning to its homeplane, which seems to also be the answer to the outsider body parts question.

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## Duke of Urrel

For my part, I strongly prefer the statement on page 130 of COMPLETE_DIVINE over the statement on page 313 of the MONSTER_MANUAL.

I apply the MONSTER_MANUAL's statement that an Outsiders soul and body form one unit _only_ to Extraplanar Outsiders that have _alignment subtypes_, and when I do, I interpret it to mean _only_ that the _body_ as well as the _soul_ of an Outsider with an alignment subtype express _one and the same aligned will_.  For example, both the body and the soul of an angel express a Good will, whereas both the body and the soul of a devil express a Lawful-Evil will.

In the rare event that a celestial being _falls_ or a fiendish being _rises_, the Outsider's soul and body can _no longer_ form one unit, because the body and soul of a _fallen angel_ or a _risen fiend_ have opposed alignments.  For example, the _soul_ of a fallen angel is Evil, but the _body_ of a fallen angel, which still has the Good subtype, is Good.

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## SangoProduction

> For my part, I strongly prefer the statement on page 130 of COMPLETE_DIVINE over the statement on page 313 of the MONSTER_MANUAL.
> 
> I apply the MONSTER_MANUAL's statement that an Outsiders soul and body form one unit _only_ to Extraplanar Outsiders that have _alignment subtypes_, and when I do, I interpret it to mean _only_ that the _body_ as well as the _soul_ of an Outsider with an alignment subtype express _one and the same aligned will_.  For example, both the body and the soul of an angel express a Good will, whereas both the body and the soul of a devil express a Lawful-Evil will.
> 
> In the rare event that a celestial being _falls_ or a fiendish being _rises_, the Outsider's soul and body can _no longer_ form one unit, because the body and soul of a _fallen angel_ or a _risen fiend_ have opposed alignments.  For example, the _soul_ of a fallen angel is Evil, but the _body_ of a fallen angel, which still has the Good subtype, is Good.


Given the context, I do love the absolutely perfect irony of how the passage dispute does sound like one from theological studies across the world, discussing what such and such phrase actually means across the various translations.

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## Crake

> Given the context, I do love the absolutely perfect irony of how the passage dispute does sound like one from theological studies across the world, discussing what such and such phrase actually means across the various translations.


Im not sure where people are seeing a dispute in the complete divine passage and the concept of souls and bodies being the same unit?

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## Tzardok

> Im not sure where people are seeing a dispute in the complete divine passage and the concept of souls and bodies being the same unit?


Hamishspence claimed in our dispute yesterday that the passage from Complete Divine means that the soul and the body of an outsider are only very strongly interwoven, not actually one and the same, and death and sufficiently strong magic could seperate them. I assume Duke of Urrel interpretes it the same.
I disagreed. Vehemently.




> In the rare event that a celestial being _falls_ or a fiendish being _rises_, the Outsider's soul and body can _no longer_ form one unit, because the body and soul of a _fallen angel_ or a _risen fiend_ have opposed alignments.  For example, the _soul_ of a fallen angel is Evil, but the _body_ of a fallen angel, which still has the Good subtype, is Good.


It is canon that outsiders who change their alignment this way evolve sooner or later into new beings. The change in the soul is reflected in the change of the body, because an outsider's body literally is the physical representation of its soul.
The promotion and demotion of outsider races work by similiar principle: the Lantern Archon evolves into a Hound Archon because through understanding and enlightenment the Lawful Good-ness of its soul becomes too "big" for a Lantern Archon's being, so its body changes to match.

I also disagree with the notion that it only goes for aligned outsiders; in 2e genies, mephits and other elemental beings had death throes and dispersed just like the embodiments of the alignments did (and 3.x doesn't contradicts this; it just reamins silent on it).

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## Crake

> Hamishspence claimed in our dispute yesterday that the passage from Complete Divine means that the soul and the body of an outsider are only very strongly interwoven, not actually one and the same, and death and sufficiently strong magic could seperate them. I assume Duke of Urrel interpretes it the same.
> I disagreed. Vehemently.


Yeah, I don't see anything in the complete divine passage that suggests that the soul and body aren't a single unit, only that when the body/soul is sufficiently damaged, it slowly disperses away to it's home plane. The complete divine quote doesn't even mention the body at all, only ever referring to it as the soul.

This is further backed up by passages from the fiendish codex which say pretty much the same thing.

Also, as a side note, keep in mind that while true resurrection is one of the methods of bringing back outsiders, a far EASIER method is limited wish. A paltry 300xp and a 7th level spell, far more accessible than true resurrection, and in the case of demons/devils, they could very easily set up a cult to perform a sacrifice in the event of their demise to petition an evil patron to grand them a limited wish to bring back their master/mistress. Sacrifice DC check for limited wish is only 40, which, for a level 3 cleric with guidance of the avatar (+20 competence) and divine insight (+8 insight), max ranks in knowledge religion (+6 ranks), a masterwork skill item (+2 prayer book), at an altar (+2), before 10 other followers (+1), can get +39 on the check, enough to secure the 40 needed even on a roll of a 1.

Makes a fiendish foe killable and still recurring, forcing the players to have to find and eliminate their cult to truly be rid of them.

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## hamishspence

The "one unit" version_ implies that_ "killing the Outsider's body "kills" the outsider's soul" (since they are one and the same thing).

But the _Complete Divine_ version has the soul be _dispersed_ rather than killed after the body is killed.

The_ Revive Outsider_ spell only _works if_ the body is _not_ dispersed when the body is killed. So if "dispersing the soul" _doesn't_ include dispersing the body _as well_ - then _some_ degree of duality is implied to be in play.



Combining "_functioning_ Revive Outsider spells" with "the soul is dispersed" suggests that when an outsider is slain, its soul immediately passes on to its home plane, and disperses, but its body is _left behind_, allowing a spellcaster to cast the spell on the body, pulling the soul back together from its dispersal and putting it back in the body, in the process of bringing the body to life.



Whereas having the body disperse at the same time as the soul (because they're one and the same) - turns the Revive Outsider spell into deadweight in a character's spell list.

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## Tzardok

Again no. The "Soul and Body are the same" never, ever implied that killing the creature destroys the soul. And no one here claimed that.

When you fight an outsider, you hit it until the soul can't keep its physical manifestation up anymore, thereby dispersing body and soul. Easy as pie.

Combine that with the fact that an outsider's physical form (or parts of it) may be conserved in a way that prevents dispersion (see also conserved body parts of fiends in BoVD as alternate material components), and Revive Outsider still works if either: someone takes the trouble to preserve the body; or we change the way it works slightly to just require part of the body (like for example the residual sludge left behind when a devil's body disperses).

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## hamishspence

_Revive Outsider_ proves it's possible to have an Outsider with a dead body that is not dispersed.

You could possibly fudge it with "a _dead_ soul is not a _destroyed_ soul" though, and "the dead soul (but not dispersed) doesn't have to disperse right away - it can be brought back to life". 

But the _Complete Divine_ passage implies that the soul always disperses almost instantly and that this is _why_ the Raise Dead spell doesn't work.



So, to have_ Complete Divine_'s passage be true, _and_ have a corpse available for Revive Outsider spells, produces duality.





> or we change the way it works slightly to just require part of the body (like for example the residual sludge left behind when a devil's body disperses).


The "collapse into sludge" takes between 3 and 9 minutes to happen (FC2). And only happens when the body is off its home plane.

Revive Outsider specifically functions as Raise Dead,_ not_ Resurrection.

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## Tzardok

So what? We have proof that a dead soul doesn't leave its body at the moment of death (see also Revivify). Why should an outsider's soul not take time to properly disperse?

As for why Raise Dead doesn't work? There's a much simpler explanation. Raise Dead returns a soul into its body (as does Resurrection, after reconstructing it, and Reincarnation, after building a new one). You can't return a soul into a body if the soul _is_ the body.

Finally, the definition of outsider in the Monster Manual, the primary source about creatures, includes that they are non-dual. If Revive Outsider contradicts that, then Revive Outsider is wrong. If Complete Divine contradicts that, Complete Divine is wrong.

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## hamishspence

Revivify doesn't work on Outsiders or Elementals because it functions "as Raise Dead except...."



And Revive Outsider _does_ work on them, no matter how long the Outsider has been dead (making it even better than True Resurrection)

RAW, if you find a 1000 year old Outsider corpse (preserved maybe by magic, the psionic substance Quintessence, or so forth) and cast Revive Outsider on it, the spell _will work_ even when the maximum duration dead for True Resurrection cast by a caster of your level, has expired.

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## Tzardok

And? What's your point?

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## Crake

> And Revive Outsider _does_ work on them, no matter how long the Outsider has been dead (making it even better than True Resurrection)


That's not true. It works like raise dead, so it only works on an outsider that has been dead for 1 day/level, which presumably is because the body will disperse beyond repair over that kind of time.

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## hamishspence

> That's not true. It works like raise dead, so it only works on an outsider that has been dead for 1 day/level, which presumably is because the body will disperse beyond repair over that kind of time.


The text of the spell says otherwise:



> You restore life to a dead outsider, as with the _raise dead_ spell (PH 2680. You can restore to life any creature of the outsider type up to your level in Hit Dice, and the creature can have been dead for any length of time.

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## Crake

> The text of the spell says otherwise:


Huh, then i guess you're limited by how long the DM determines it takes for the corpse to disappate normally

Dimensional anchor is canonically able to prevent this dispersion, though gentle repose may be equally able to do so if you have a lenient DM.

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## Darg

> Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual natureits soul and body form one unit. *When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose.* Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, dont work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.


The elemental type says the same thing. I think it's more of an ownership type of thing. The corpse left behind is not "them." Their soul is their body. I think of it as similar to Fushi in To Your Eternity in how he can cast off his body by transferring his consciousness to a growth from himself. Of course the outsider is more metaphysical than that, but I think it's pretty similar in concept. Or to put it another way, the body is the body and cutting off an arm and regenerating the arm doesn't make it not a body. You just can't raise dead on the arm even though it is technically a corpse because the soul still resides in its body. If you think of the outsider corpse the same as an arm I think it comes together nicely.

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## Duke of Urrel

You have all got me thinking and rethinking.  I have also read everybody's remarks a little more carefully.  So I have some revised ideas now.  Thank you all!

*1*. When I said that the "soul of a fallen angel is Evil, but the body of a fallen angel, which still has the Good subtype, is Good," I intended this as a possible explanation for this passage from page 310 of the MONSTER_MANUAL.




> *Good Subtype*: [] Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment.


This implies that some creatures do exist whose chosen alignments are different from their alignment subtypes, though they should be very rare, of course.

Major Evil beings who were angels a long, long time ago, such as Baalzebul, surely have no Good left in them at all, neither in their bodies nor in their souls.  I agree with Tzardok about this.  But I had in mind lesser beings of the "Hellboy" variety that are fun to play as PCs.

*2*. The rules dont explicitly say that an Outsider on its own home plane gains the Native subtype, but _suppose we make this an explicit rule_.  If an Outsider that dies on its home plane is a Native Outsider, then: (1) it can be brought back to life by the Raise Dead spell, which implies that (2) it has a dual nature, which implies that (3) when it dies, its soul departs from its corpse, which decays as slowly as the corpse of any other formerly living thing.  This rule would allow fiendish body parts to be harvested _on the fiends own home planes_, where dead fiends do not decay as quickly.

It would also make me more willing to accept the proposal that both the body and the soul of a dead Elemental or a dead _Extraplanar_ Outsider quickly dissipate together and then merge together on the creatures home plane, thereby maintaining their unity.

*3*. I like Crakes suggestion that part of the material component for the Revive Outsider spell  the "bit of soil, water, or other unworked, natural material from the outsiders native plane  should _take the place of the creatures body_ as the target of the spell.  If both the body and the soul of a dead Outsider quickly dissipate and merge with the Outsiders home plane, then no corpse remains for the caster of the Revive Outsider spell to touch  and this spell does require touch.  But if some natural material from the Outsiders native plane can substitute for its body, then this problem is solved.

*4*. Having a single rather than dual nature should not make the Magic Jar spell impossible to use.  Whether your body and soul are naturally separable or inseparable _after you die_ does not necessarily impose any restriction on what your body and soul can do _while youre still alive_.  To put it another way, since the Magic Jar spell breaks the laws of nature no matter who uses it, the  user's natural body-soul arrangement, whether dual or single, should not make any difference.

*5*. On the other hand, suppose we say that an Elemental or Outsider who uses the Magic Jar spell sends not only its soul but also its body into a magic jar.  By saying this, we make the Magic Jar spell less risky for an Elemental or Outsider to use, because this creature doesnt have to leave its own defenseless body anywhere while the spell is active.

I disagree that having a single rather than dual nature should make the Magic Jar spell easier rather than harder to use.  So if an Elemental or Outsider using the Magic Jar spell can hide its body inside the magic jar itself, I think some other risk must be invented.  For example: If the magic jar is destroyed while it contains both the soul and the body of an Elemental or Outsider, I think the creature should be killed instantly, or at least banished to its home plane.  When this happens, a misty image of the Elemental or Outsider should rise up out of the last creature it possessed, utter a muffled cry, and then vanish.

As always, thank you all for the ideas!

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## Crake

> The rules dont explicitly say that an Outsider on its own home plane gains the Native subtype, but suppose we make this an explicit rule.


I think it's important not to get the (Native) subtype mixed up with a lack of an (Extraplanar) subtype. The native subtype for outsiders explicitly refers to outsiders who are native to the material plane, like tieflings, aasimar and oftentimes half fiend/celestials. This does not change based on location, you either have the subtype, or you do not. I've seen people oftentimes confused Outsiders, Native Outsiders, and Extraplanar creatures, and mix them up. Outsiders are those native to the outer planes, Native Outsiders are those native to the material plane, usually with some Outsider heritage, while Extraplanar are any who are not on their native plane (except the astral plane, nobody has extraplanar there).

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## Tzardok

> I think it's important not to get the (Native) subtype mixed up with a lack of an (Extraplanar) subtype. The native subtype for outsiders explicitly refers to outsiders who are native to the material plane, like tieflings, aasimar and oftentimes half fiend/celestials. This does not change based on location, you either have the subtype, or you do not. I've seen people oftentimes confused Outsiders, Native Outsiders, and Extraplanar creatures, and mix them up. Outsiders are those native to the outer planes, Native Outsiders are those native to the material plane, usually with some Outsider heritage, while Extraplanar are any who are not on their native plane (except the astral plane, nobody has extraplanar there).


To be even more correct: a Native Outsider is any being that has outsider traits, but still a dual nature for whatever reason (the Native subtype is in a certain sense a misnomer). Take for example the bariaur: a Native Outsider native to Ysgard. It remains a Native Outsider on all planes it is on, even those where it is extraplanar, because switching locations doesn't affect your metaphysical makeup.




> *4*. Having a single rather than dual nature should not make the Magic Jar spell impossible to use.  Whether your body and soul are naturally separable or inseparable _after you die_ does not necessarily impose any restriction on what your body and soul can do _while youre still alive_.  To put it another way, since the Magic Jar spell breaks the laws of nature no matter who uses it, the  user's natural body-soul arrangement, whether dual or single, should not make any difference.
> 
> *5*. On the other hand, suppose we say that an Elemental or Outsider who uses the Magic Jar spell sends not only its soul but also its body into a magic jar.  By saying this, we make the Magic Jar spell less risky for an Elemental or Outsider to use, because this creature doesnt have to leave its own defenseless body anywhere while the spell is active.
> 
> I disagree that having a single rather than dual nature should make the Magic Jar spell easier rather than harder to use.  So if an Elemental or Outsider using the Magic Jar spell can hide its body inside the magic jar itself, I think some other risk must be invented.  For example: If the magic jar is destroyed while it contains both the soul and the body of an Elemental or Outsider, I think the creature should be killed instantly, or at least banished to its home plane.  When this happens, a misty image of the Elemental or Outsider should rise up out of the last creature it possessed, utter a muffled cry, and then vanish.
> 
> As always, thank you all for the ideas!


I disagree. Treating body and soul as seperable under any circumstance contradicts the non-dual nature. Body and soul are one. This isn't like extracting salt from seawater, this is like removing the silver from a silver spoon and expecting to have a spoon left.

I also think, because of the precedence of outsiders possessing people, that Magic Jar (which is essentially "possession for people who have a meat body") should be easier and handier for them.

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## hamishspence

> I disagree. Treating body and soul as seperable under any circumstance contradicts the non-dual nature. Body and soul are one. This isn't like extracting salt from seawater, this is like removing the silver from a silver spoon and expecting to have a spoon left.


Given that silver spoons are normally _alloys_ (92.5% silver, 7.5% copper) - there is going to be something left after you remove the silver - just not much.

Nobody makes spoons out of pure unalloyed silver, because that metal is just too soft for practical use.

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## Tzardok

*shrug* Then it's like taking the wood out of a wooden spoon and expecting a spoon to remain. Or do you want to argue now about laques and wood stains and things like that? Really, it's a metaphor. It doesn't need to be a hundred percent accurate.

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## Duke of Urrel

> I think it's important not to get the (Native) subtype mixed up with a lack of an (Extraplanar) subtype. The native subtype for outsiders explicitly refers to outsiders who are native to the material plane, like tieflings, aasimar and oftentimes half fiend/celestials. This does not change based on location, you either have the subtype, or you do not. I've seen people oftentimes confused Outsiders, Native Outsiders, and Extraplanar creatures, and mix them up. Outsiders are those native to the outer planes, Native Outsiders are those native to the material plane, usually with some Outsider heritage, while Extraplanar are any who are not on their native plane (except the astral plane, nobody has extraplanar there).





> To be even more correct: a Native Outsider is any being that has outsider traits, but still a dual nature for whatever reason (the Native subtype is in a certain sense a misnomer). Take for example the bariaur: a Native Outsider native to Ysgard. It remains a Native Outsider on all planes it is on, even those where it is extraplanar, because switching locations doesn't affect your metaphysical makeup.


I agree that creatures who are identified as having the Native subtype in the MONSTER_MANUAL should keep this subtype everywhere they go.  I am not suggesting, for example, that a _janni_ on any plane other than the Material Plane should lose their dual nature, so that if they are killed on any plane other than the Material, the janni's body and soul should both dissipate and merge with the Material Plane.

(I was surprised that Tzardok identified the bariaur as an Outsider with the Native subtype.  It makes no sense to me that bariaurs, who are native to the rolling hills and woods of Ysgard and not the Material Plane, should have the Native subtype.  So I looked it up.  For what its worth, several 3.5 ERRATA supplements (2003) list the bariaur as having the Outsider type but no subtype at all.)

What if we say that the Native subtype, for creatures assigned this subtype by the MONSTER_MANUAL, is not plane dependent; but that for creatures assigned the _Extraplanar_ subtype by the MONSTER_MANUAL, there exists a Native subtype that is _plane dependent_?  This is _not at all_ necessarily implied by the rules, but why cant we _choose_ to say that it is?

And if we decide that this is _not_ an allowable interpretation within the rules and can only be a _house rule_, we can dispel confusion even further by inventing a new subtype called At Home.  In contrast to the Native subtype, the At Home subtype is plane dependent, just like the Extraplanar subtype (which _absolutely is_ plane dependent).  When an Outsider is on its home plane, it loses the Extraplanar subtype and gains the At Home subtype.  This subtype confers dual nature.

I like house rules that solve problems.  The house rule that Extraplanar Outsiders switch out their Extraplanar subtype for the At Home subtype on their home planes solves the problem of how to collect fiendish body parts before they dissipate.

And there is another question that this house rule may answer for us: Just what really happens to an Outsider when it is magically summoned from its home plane to the Material Plane?




> *Summoning*
> A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it cant be summoned again.


I have always wondered how this works.  The first idea that occurred to me was that summoning should work like _reverse Astral Projection_.  When you astrally project yourself to some other plane and your astral body is killed there, your soul flies back to the inert material body that you left behind on the Material Plane.  Conversely, when a summoned creatures dies on the plane to which it was summoned, it doesnt really die; instead, it returns to  whatever it was that it left behind on its home plane.  From this kernel of potential life, the summoned creature returns to life on its home plane after 24 hours.  But this thing _cannot_ be an inert material body in suspended animation.  (This would be very inconvenient for the inhabitants of alternate planes who often get summoned to the Material Plane.)  So ... what is it, then?

Now I know: It is the summoned creatures _soul_.

Heres how it works.  An Outsider, such as a lantern archon, on its home plane of Celestia, has the At Home subtype instead of the Extraplanar one.  So when a spellcaster summons it to the Material Plane using the Summon Monster IV spell, it has a _dual nature_ and a soul that is separable from its body.  Only the creatures body vanishes from Celestia and appears on the Material Plane; its soul is left behind.  This explains why the summoned lantern archon _obeys the summoner_ unquestioningly: It is because the lantern archon left its soul, and with it its will, behind on Celestia, so that its summoned body is now an instrument of the summoner's will.  And in the event that the lantern archons body is killed on the Material Plane, its soul, which never left Celestia, can easily form a new body after 24 hours.

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## HeraldOfExius

Seeing as ghosts should have the same body=soul issue as outsiders and elementals, I decided to see if there's anything relevant in Ghostwalk, a late 3.0 setting where the main gimmick is that it's very easy for people to come back as ghosts when they die. These ghosts are incorporeal outsiders (not the usual undead ghosts) made of ectoplasm, although the setting's main city is in an area that causes ghosts to turn solid. Here are some of the relevant things I could find that could be extended to other types of outsiders:

Ectoplasm can exist separate from a ghost (such as by cutting it off with a ghost touch weapon or by "killing" a ghost, which reduces it to a puddle), but it goes away after 10 minutes if not preserved by something like gentle repose or a special alchemical substance. Applying this to other outsiders means that outsider body parts (or bodies) can exist separate from the creatures themselves, but have to be specifically preserved or else they will just dissolve back into the outsider's home plane. Related to this, Clone can work on ghosts, but the resulting body is called out as subject to the same 10 minute time limit unless otherwise preserved.

Magic Jar cannot be used on ghosts, and ghosts that use Magic Jar disappear until they're done. This implies that while ghosts (sort of) have a body, they count more as souls than bodies. Extrapolating from this, effects like Imprison Soul or Trap the Soul would probably also trap their bodies instead of having the normal result of leaving behind a body that gradually or rapidly decays respectively. There still isn't anything that says this is how it would work for other outsiders/elementals, but it's at least an actual rule for one type of outsider in a relatively obscure setting.

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## Tzardok

> I agree that creatures who are identified as having the Native subtype in the MONSTER_MANUAL should keep this subtype everywhere they go.  I am not suggesting, for example, that a _janni_ on any plane other than the Material Plane should lose their dual nature, so that if they are killed on any plane other than the Material, the janni's body and soul should both dissipate and merge with the Material Plane.
> 
> (I was surprised that Tzardok identified the bariaur as an Outsider with the Native subtype.  It makes no sense to me that bariaurs, who are native to the rolling hills and woods of Ysgard and not the Material Plane, should have the Native subtype.  So I looked it up.  For what its worth, several 3.5 ERRATA supplements (2003) list the bariaur as having the Outsider type but no subtype at all.)
> 
> What if we say that the Native subtype, for creatures assigned this subtype by the MONSTER_MANUAL, is not plane dependent; but that for creatures assigned the _Extraplanar_ subtype by the MONSTER_MANUAL, there exists a Native subtype that is _plane dependent_?  This is _not at all_ necessarily implied by the rules, but why cant we _choose_ to say that it is?


The important question is not "why can't we do this?", but "why should we?". What do we have to gain from adding a complicated rule, just so we can justify a counter-intuitive change to what makes outsiders outsiders? (Besides, we already have a rule for something that signifies being on your homeplane. It's called "not having the Extraplanar subtype".)

I mean, if you really hate the idea of a being that _is_ a soul instead of _having_ one, you may add this houserule in your own games (and maybe take a look at incorporeal undead; those are after all in many cases also all soul, no body) (or maybe remove the non-dual nature of outsiders and elementals completely; that's much neater and cleaner), but it contradicts canon and it won't convince anyone that outsiders should be dual after all.

And regarding your summoning "explanation": what about anything that isn't an outsider? What when you summon an animal with Summon Nature's Ally? You don't want to imply that an animal's disembodied soul is capable of reforming a new body, do you?

Edit: By the way, you are right regarding the bariaur. I was sure that they were Native, but I must have remembered wrongly. But I did find a creature that is a Native Outsider despite not hailing from the Material: the diabolus, a playable race living in the Demiplane of Nightmares. (Also, I'm pretty sure the lore on rakshasa claims that they were Native Outsiders before migrating from Acheron to the Material, but that may be debatable.)

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## Duke of Urrel

> The important question is not "why can't we do this?", but "why should we?". What do we have to gain from adding a complicated rule, just so we can justify a counter-intuitive change to what makes outsiders outsiders?


What we have to gain is answering some otherwise unanswerable questions.




> And regarding your summoning "explanation": what about anything that isn't an outsider? What when you summon an animal with Summon Nature's Ally? You don't want to imply that an animal's disembodied soul is capable of reforming a new body, do you?


Oh, but I do, I do!  But only when the Animals in question are _summoned_, of course.  Remember, creatures of the Animal type all have _dual nature_, no matter where you summon them from.  So this is why it's so easy to detach their bodies from their souls.  And again, this explains how it is that summoned Animals can die, while summoned, without actually dying.  They survive because their souls were left behind, so that they can form new bodies (which presumably appear in the exact spot that they were summoned from) within 24 hours.




> But I did find a creature that is a Native Outsider despite not hailing from the Material: the diabolus, a playable race living in the Demiplane of Nightmares. (Also, I'm pretty sure the lore on rakshasa claims that they were Native Outsiders before migrating from Acheron to the Material, but that may be debatable.)


Since you mention Acheron, this reminds me of another problem that my new house rule can solve.




> The towers and walls of Clangor are arranged with deadly precision to inflict the greatest damage on any attacking force. The air is cold and dry, and breath fogs the air. What regions are not given over to goblin barracks hold wolf warrens for elite goblin riders. Because most of the forces of Clangor are goblin and hobgoblin petitioners, no great store of food is necessary. However,
> some heavily guarded stores are available for mortals, wolves, and other creatures that also reside on Clangor, brought from offplane at a hefty price through heavily guarded portals.


Where in the multiverse do the goblinoids of Clangor get the food they need to feed all those wolves?  Because, if we assume that the corpses of dead Outsiders quickly dissipate and merge with their home plane, they don't leave much flesh behind for scavengers, do they?

But if we allow the corpses of dead Outsiders on their home plane to decay at a normal rate, suddenly the food problem is solved. Feed your slain enemies to the wolves!

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## Tzardok

> What we have to gain is answering some otherwise unanswerable questions.


In my opinion, these question already have been answered.




> Where in the multiverse do the goblinoids of Clangor get the food they need to feed all those wolves?  Because, if we assume that the corpses of dead Outsiders quickly dissipate and merge with their home plane, they don't leave much flesh behind for scavengers, do they?
> 
> But if we allow the corpses of dead Outsiders on their home plane to decay at a normal rate, suddenly the food problem is solved. Feed your slain enemies to the wolves!


You do know that there's a whole lot of stuff living on Acheron that isn't outsiders, do you? For example, those wolves. Or those goblins. All those axial and fiendish creatures. Rust dragons. Rakshasa. Or, how about the damn orcs the goblins are at war with all the time? Why aren't they eating those?
In short, you are again trying to solve problems that aren't there.

And regarding the summoning, it works just as well if the whole creature is summoned and then reforms afterwards. Or if you only create a copy of the summoned creature.
From my perspective your "solution" is more harmful than helpful.

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## ShurikVch

> And there is another question that this house rule may answer for us: Just what really happens to an Outsider when it is magically summoned from its home plane to the Material Plane?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Summoning*
> A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it cant be summoned again.
> 			
> 		
> ...


According to the _Planescape Campaign Setting_:



> SPELL CRYSTALS
> A minor hazard to planar characters, but a hazard nonetheless, is the occasional spell crystal. These
> things aren't useful items to adventurers, but are the handiwork of prime-material wizards.
> What happens when a wizard summons something from the Outer Planes or communes with a planar
> being? He doesn't realize it, but the force of his magic creates a whizzing, glowing crystal on the target
> plane. This crystal shoots across the plane, unerringly searching for the object of its master's spell. Upon
> reaching its goal, the crystal swoops in and touches the target, releasing its magical energy. If it's a
> summoning, the target vanishes, instantly drawn to the Prime Material Plane through a magical,
> temporary vortex. Commune and divination crystals release a flood of insistent imagery that clamors for
> ...


Also, Rift Portal Malfunction is able to summon a PC, and it's definitely a teleportation - body and soul (if any) 

In the settings with restricted cosmology it may work differently:



> *Summoning:* Summoning spells are significantly warped by the severe restrictions on planar travel in Ravenloft. Rather than summoning outsiders for assistance, you conjure creatures taken from the surrounding region. Thus, only creatures found in the domain in which this spell is cast can be summoned.
> Summoned creatures in Ravenloft do not use the outsider template. Thus, _summon monster I_ would summon a dire rat, not a fiendish dire rat. Attempts to summon an outsider like a succubus or kyton automatically fail unless such a creature happens to be in the domain. Attempts to summon elementals automatically produce dread elementals.
> Most domains, such as those of the Core, have rich ecologies where many of the creatures listed under the _summon_ spells can be found. Some wretched domains have extremely limited or even nonexistent ecologies. If you choose a creature to summon that is not present in the domain, the spell fails.





> *Summoning*
> Just as there is no access to other planes, there are also no planes from which to draw extraplanar creatures via the _summon monster_ or _summon nature's ally_ spells. However, this is not to say that those spells are useless. Rather, they simply have different effects.
> First of all, rather than calling on extraplanar creatures, summoning spells in MIDNIGHT call on the lesser eternal spirits on Aryth, those who have always been part of the world and always will be. The summoning spell merely gives the spirit a physical form, powers, and even provides it with a certain level of intellect and ability to communicate, all dependent on the power of the caster who created the vessel for it and bound it temporarily to this world.

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## SangoProduction

> Im not sure where people are seeing a dispute in the complete divine passage and the concept of souls and bodies being the same unit?


I made no claim one way or the other. Simply commenting on how that dispute looked so perfectly relevantly themed.

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## Duke of Urrel

> I made no claim one way or the other. Simply commenting on how that dispute looked so perfectly relevantly themed.


I myself had a _very hard time_ reconciling the first (1) claim, that "an outsider does not have a dual natureits soul and body form one unit" with the second (2) claim, that the "souls of outsiders and elementals are so intrinsically tied to the essence of their home plane that they evaporate into the fabric of the plane rather quickly."  To me, "forming one unit with the body" and "evaporating" seemed to be _absolutely incompatible_ actions for a creature's soul to take.  So my first decision, which I made long ago, was to _ignore and disregard_ the first claim (for the most part), which seemed to create more problems than it solved, and to _retain_ only the second claim, which seemed to solve more problems than it created.

And then I read THIS thread.

Before I read this thread, it had never occurred to me that a creature's body might _maintain_ unity with its soul by dissipating _together with it_ and then merging _together with it_ into the creature's home plane.  But now, I find this idea inspiring.

Maybe TOO inspiring.  I have had some interesting ideas, some of which seem not to be very popular.  But I am still grateful, to this forum and to all its contributors, for the inspiration.  This is what I come here for!

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## Bohandas

> Where in the multiverse do the goblinoids of Clangor get the food they need to feed all those wolves?  Because, if we assume that the corpses of dead Outsiders quickly dissipate and merge with their home plane, they don't leave much flesh behind for scavengers, do they?


presumably if they have wolves they could have cattle or some other meat animal there too.

That said, I've come to interpret refrences to "merging with the substance of their plane" and other such things to just be the other planar equivalent* observation to "you rot in the ground"**, and that it could very well take place on similar timescales.

EDIT:
But regardless of timescale, maybe _gentle repose_?

EDIT:
*ie. the same thing but regarding a body made of spirit and a world made out of spirit, rather than a body made out of mass/eb=nergy and a world made out of mass/energy

**Or possibly the equivalent of "your body is gradually weathered away into dust" depending on whether any sort of living agent plays a role in the process and whether this distinction is considered relevant to the metaphor

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