# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 > 3rd Ed All stats used for everything.......sort of

## Dragonsworn

Hello everyone, how are you while we near the cusp of (yet another) year renewal?

So, hoping the title was not more of a clickbait than I intended, allow me to clarify

First of all, when I say "stats" I mean Ability Scores!

Secondly, when I say "used for everything", I mostly mean basic things like attack, damage, AC and saves, things that Ability Scores are commonly used as sources for boni. I have naturally tried to expand upon that, and hence this post

So, basically, I was trying to come up with a build that added as many of the character's ability scores to as many of the aforementioned things as possible. At the same time, seeing how the pluses could pile up, I also tried to find features that would benefit the most of it (which ended up being mostly defensive stuff, so this might not end up being as good as I initially thought). After going through the Lists of Stuff and the X stat to Y bonus threads on this forum (both trully *AMAZING* sources of reference), here is the final stub

Keep in mind that the initial idea for this build evolved from an attempted Vow of Poverty build, so in practice a character might not have high enough stats for such a build to hold merit. High/end game items such as a _Belt of Magnificence_ and such _might_ be able to ameliorate this, but since the highest game I have ever been was level 7 (parties broke up for various reasons), I need a more experienced take on this

*Allistair Lucius Leopold Solomon Théodore Ambrose Tiberius Socrates (Sort for Allistair Lucius Leopold Solomon Théodore Ambrose Tiberius Ignatius Socrates Thaddeus Ingram Cornelius Syrus)*

Monk 1/Battle Dancer 1/Scout 2/Paladin 2/Rogue 2/Shiba Protector 1/Akodo Champion 2/Fist of the Forest 1/Pious Templar 1/Swordsage 2/X 5
Obviously, Swordsage is taken at the latest possible level to allow the acquisition of higher-level maneuvers {ninths are out due to too many base classes, unless the build is heavily altered and/or more feats are used [such as taking Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries over Rogue for Evasion, which fortunately does not require any more feats than are already needed but loses the option of going feat Rogue (elaborated on further below)]}

These gets us, in order
-Wisdom to AC through Monk, changed to Intelligence via Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk feats
-Charisma to AC through Battle Dancer (Dragon Compendium variant, p. 26)
-Uncanny Dodge through Scout, and if you go by _that_ reading total immunity to being flat footed (if not, this can be substituted for any other class that grants the ability)(Complete Adventurer variant, p. 10)
-Charisma to saves through Paladin, changed to Wisdom via Serenity feat
-Evasion from Rogue
-Wisdom to attack and damage through Shiba Protector (Oriental Adventures variant, p. 222)
-Charisma to saves which explicitly stacks with the Paladin's Divine grace [many things grant Charisma to saves, but either situationally or they don't stack (a lot of the prestige classes mentioned in the X stat to Y bonus list give the Divine Grace ability verbatim, and I believe you can't stack them if they have the same name), and I believe this was the easiest to qualify for (Monk, Paladin and Blackguard in the same build would pose serious alignment problems!) without losing too many levels] through Akodo Champion (Oriental Adventures variant, p. 220)
-Constitution to AC through Fist of the Forest (I considered Deepwarden, but it replaces Constitution for Dexterity for AC, whereas FotF adds it) (Complete Champion variant, p. 80)
-Mettle through Pious Templar (Complete Divine variant, p. 50)
-Wisdom to AC through Swordsage, which we this time keep

Feats Needed to achive build goals
-Kung Fu Genius (Dragon Compendium) or Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor, p. 28)
-Serenity (Dragon Compendium)
-Possibly Shadow Blade to add Dexterity to damage if using appropriate weapon (Tome of Battle)

Feats needed to qualify
-Alertness, (Combat) Expertise and Iron Will for Shiba Protector
-Iron Will, Ki Shout and Weapon Focus (katana) for Akodo Champion
-Great Fortitude, Improved Unarmed Strike (fortunately gained through Monk) and Power Attack for Fist of the Forest
-True Believer and Weapon Focus (with deity's favored weapon) for Pious Templar

So, in total, Alertness, Combat Expertise, Iron Will, Ki Shout, Great Fortitude, Power Attack, True Believer and two Weapon Focus to qualify (anybody know of a god with a Katana as a favored weapon?  :Small Tongue:  :Small Smile:  :Small Wink:  :Small Big Grin:  :Small Cool: ), plus Kung Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk, Serenity and possibly Shadow Blade, doable if those two Rogue Levels are the Feat Rogue variant (From Unearthed Arcana iirc?) and using three of the last 5 levels to get bonus feats (Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 1?) or going Human and needing only two extra feats (or using flaws, for that matter)

Books needed
-Player's Handbook
-Dragon Compendium
-Champions of Valor (possibly, if Carmendine Monk is used)
-Complete Adventurer (if we go the Scout route)
-Oriental Adventures
-Complete Champion
-Complete Divine
-Tome of Battle

This ends up with:
-AC: Dexerity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom _and_ Charisma
-Saves: Wisdom, Charisma plus the respective ability score (Wisdom twice for Will saves)
-Wisdom to attack and Damage (possibility to add Daxterity and/or Constitution if the Hammer of Earth from Magic of Rokugan is used)
-Overall, the build as presented has (in the order the classes are presented): 11 BAB, 14 Fortitude, 15 Reflex, 11 Will, 1d8+1d8+2d8+2d10+2d6+1d10+2d10+1d10+1d10+2d8 hitpoints (except whichever is taken at first level, which is maxed) and 4+4+2x8+2x2+2x8+2+2x4+2+2+2X6+15xIntelligence skill points (except for whichever class is taken at first level, which is quadrupled)

Things I am trying to do:
-Find a way to add Intelligence to Attack/Damage/Saves. I do not want to use Factotum because the ability is not always "on" and there is no feat room for Font of Inspiration, and the only class that adds Intelligence to saves in a "Divine Grace manner" is Nightcloak, at level 7 while requiring a 5 level divine caster to enter (and another feat)
-Find a way to add Charisma to attack and damage without being a Bard or expending other resources the  build has no room to acquire
-Find a way to add Dexterity to attack and damage without (necessarily) replacing Strength or investing too much
-I know it is possible to reverse engineer the Hammer of Earth and add its ability on another weapon. Sadly, I don't have that book, so is it possible that someone who has it can do it (or has done it already)? Also, how rules legal/homebrew is that considered?
-Is there an equivalent of the feats _Faerie Mysteries Initiate_ and _Beauty's Bounty_ that a) are not Dragon Magazine (for FMI), b) works more like Constitution (for BB) and c) do not replace Constitution? If it is impossible to have the ability without replacing Constitution, so be it. Doesn't _have_ to be a feat!
-Find an Ex version of Mettle (I know of Hexblade, but it takes three levels.....isn't there a faster one?)
-Find an Ex version of Divine Grace (not with another name, specifically named Divine Grace so that Serenity can be used!)
-Find ways (preferably Ex) to fly and/or teleport. I know of wing grafts, any other way?

So how does it look? I know it's not a particularly good built, but _how_ bad is it? Can it stand? Is there any way to reduce the required levels/feats by making better choises? Is any of these features trivial/can it be skipped? Can anything be done better? What can the final levels be used for?

As a side note, I have a gestalt version of this build in order to accomodate the aforementioned Nightcloak (that I am currently trying to fit the awesome Swiftblade PrC in), but feats become an even more serious issue this way

Due to how absurd this effort is, Dragon Magazine content will be considered, but other sources are preferred

Off you go

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## Anthrowhale

Shiba Protector and Akodo Champion may be incompatible?  They require two different clans.

You might consider Cleric 1/<bab+6>/Fist of Raziel 1/Witch Hunter 1 to pick up Kami's Grace which is not listed as (Su).

The Hit&Run Fighter variant in DotU gives +dex to damage against flat-footed foes.  Normally, this is the beginning of initiative, but there are other ways to achieve flatfooted like a ring of blinking.

Iajutsu Master 5 can give up to +Cha*9 to damage.

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## Saintheart

> Things I am trying to do:
> -Find a way to add Charisma to attack and damage without being a Bard or expending other resources the  build has no room to acquire


Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows - Dragon Magazine 314, p. 22.  Have to expend a move action to get them to activate, but still, adds [fire] damage equal to CHA.




> -Find an Ex version of Divine Grace (not with another name, specifically named Divine Grace so that Serenity can be used!)


Evil's Blessing (feat) (Elder Evils, p. 13).  CHA to all saves for 5 rounds.  Doubles the bonus if you thump a do-gooder.  Although not really Divine Grace, it basically doubles your Divine Grace feature since it adds, not substitutes.




> -Find ways (preferably Ex) to fly and/or teleport. I know of wing grafts, any other way?


Animal Devotion (feat) - Overland Flight in a can.

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## thatothersting

The Targetteer variant for Fighter (Dragon 310) lets you replace your strength bonus with your dex bonus when using a "ranged weapon", which the dagger most certainly is, allowing you to double dip on dex with Shadow Blade from Tome of Battle (which adds dex as a bonus on top of your strength). As a simple weapon this should also stack with the wis bonus provided by Intuitive Attack. 

Won't work with a katana, obviously, but it might be useful all the same.

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## Dragonsworn

> Shiba Protector and Akodo Champion may be incompatible?  They require two different clans.
> 
> You might consider Cleric 1/<bab+6>/Fist of Raziel 1/Witch Hunter 1 to pick up Kami's Grace which is not listed as (Su).
> 
> The Hit&Run Fighter variant in DotU gives +dex to damage against flat-footed foes.  Normally, this is the beginning of initiative, but there are other ways to achieve flatfooted like a ring of blinking.
> 
> Iajutsu Master 5 can give up to +Cha*9 to damage.


 :Small Eek:  Hadn't realised they were incompatible....I haven't read the book, so I tend to skim over certain details! Is the clan thing so important in the book? And is it possible to reconcile the two?

The initial build actually used Witch Hunter instead of Akodo Champion as it was the earliest possible Ex version of Divine Grace I could find, but upon writing the post I realised I could not qualify for it the same reason I couldn't for Nightcloak (needed too much casting!) so I changed it on the fly  :Small Tongue:  Fist of Raziel might be an interesting way to sidestep this, but it confers a continuous ability of _magic circle against evil_, whereas Witch Hunter demands you to be able to cast it. Wouldn't those two be different things?

Hit&Run Fighter is interesting, and I legitimately hadn't thought of it (synergisies well with the rest of the build should feats be unable any other way). Has the debate of whether it applies only to Drow Fighters been resolved yet?
-Now if only I could find a way to add Dexterity to attacks without replacing Strength too

I did consider Iajutsu Master, but it eats away too many levels, requires even more feats, cannot be used in a full attack except for specific weapons and most importantly with all the prestige classes I don't know if there will be enough skill ranks to make such an investment pay off




> Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows - Dragon Magazine 314, p. 22.  Have to expend a move action to get them to activate, but still, adds [fire] damage equal to CHA.
> 
> 
> 
> Evil's Blessing (feat) (Elder Evils, p. 13).  CHA to all saves for 5 rounds.  Doubles the bonus if you thump a do-gooder.  Although not really Divine Grace, it basically doubles your Divine Grace feature since it adds, not substitutes.
> 
> 
> 
> Animal Devotion (feat) - Overland Flight in a can.


Gauntlets are interesting! Could very well be the solution to the problem. Is there a way to get them to work on a full attack (due to move action activation?)

I came across Evil's Blessing, but It isn't what I am looking for. I am mostly searching for "always on" things, not ones that require an activation and certainly not as a standard action!

Animal Devotion is not bad.....needs to be powered though....out of this option and a graft, which one would you say is superior (I haven't read up on grafts  :Small Big Grin:  anyone can direct me to the book I can find them in?)?




> The Targetteer variant for Fighter (Dragon 310) lets you replace your strength bonus with your dex bonus when using a "ranged weapon", which the dagger most certainly is, allowing you to double dip on dex with Shadow Blade from Tome of Battle (which adds dex as a bonus on top of your strength). As a simple weapon this should also stack with the wis bonus provided by Intuitive Attack. 
> 
> Won't work with a katana, obviously, but it might be useful all the same.


I am not trying to _replace_ Strength, but to add to it! Part of the reason why this effort is so hard! Though I suppose Targetteer, Shadow Blade and Hit&Run could be taken all together for 3*Dexterity to damage  :Small Eek:  Now there is a Dexterity build that is simple and effective (there are probably _*much*_ stronger options, but this requires what? Some proficiencies that Dexterity-centric characters won't really miss, and two feats? So, doable at level 2? Not bad at all!)

Intuitive Attack has the same issues as Targeteer and Weapon Finesse; they replace instead of adding!!!

I am not trying to use Katanas (matter of fact, the Hammer of Earth from Magic of Rokugan is the weapon I would prefer, but I still can't find any online excerpts of that entry). The Weapon Focus: Katana is taken only for qualification purposes



Good suggestions so far  :Small Big Grin:  I would love some more

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## Anthrowhale

> Hadn't realised they were incompatible....I haven't read the book, so I tend to skim over certain details! Is the clan thing so important in the book? And is it possible to reconsile the two?


Not Sure




> The initial build actually used Witch Hunter instead of Akodo Champion as it was the earliest possible Ex version of Divine Grace I could find, but upon writing the post I realised I could not qualify for it the same reason I couldn't for Nightcloak (needed too much casting!) so I changed it on the fly  Fist of Raziel might be an interesting way to sidestep this, but it confers a continuous ability of _magic circle agianst evil_, whereas Witch Hunter demands you to be able to cast it. Wouldn't those two be different things?


I believe that complete arcane states that specific spell prereqs are about the ability to generate the effect so FoR entry is legit.

Witch Hunter gives 'Kami's Grace' could be interpreted as Divine Grace, or not.  There's also some question about whether it's legit to add any two untyped bonuses from the same stat since ability modifiers are explicitly called out in the srd rules as nonstacking.



> Hit&Run Fighter is interesting, and I legitimately hadn't thought of it (synergisies well with the rest of the build should feats be unable any other way). Has the debate of whether it applies only to Drow Fighters been resolved yet?


I personally don't find the debate that meritful since there is no explicit requirement.  You may have to backstory for a DM though.




> I am not trying to _replace_ Strength, but to add to it! Part of the reason why this effort is so hard! Though I suppose Targetteer, Shadow Blade and Hit&Run could be taken all together for 3*Dexterity to damage


Targetteer & Hit&Run fighter both trade away Tower Shield, so they are incompatible.

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## Gorthawar

Mechanically a katana and a bastard sword are the same and there are a couple deities like Kelemvor with favorite weapon bastard sword. This would also allow you to use a sun sword which counts as a short sword as well and is therefore compatible with the shadow blade feat for dex to damage. I don't think your magic hammer is.

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## Malphegor

On the clan stuff, you might be able to mix it. Ancestor feats that require you to be of a specific clan has a sidebar letting you apply it to any race and line of people, so its reasonable to extrapolate that to having specific classes be mixeable to invent your own ancestral traditional classes given theres no limit on OA classes unlike their feats that limit you to one ancestor feat

One of those rules unclear, seems reasonable, dm probably will okay it ones

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## AsuraKyoko

Setting-wise, Clan is incredibly important. A character's clan is the primary faction they are a member of, and clan politics are a big part of the setting. That being said, the character could be born to one clan (Phoenix clan, for Shiba Protector), then marry into another (Lion clan, for Akodo Champion). This is uncommon in setting, but not unheard of.

Edit: I believe that at least one of the Rokugan deities (probably most of them) have Katana as a favored weapon, so that fits too.

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## thatothersting

Marshal, obviously, is +charisma to any one thing, and might have some value since it's "always on", but of course it isn't a broad, sweeping category of things it's applied to. For the build, one Marshal level means charisma to either charging damage or flanking damage, flanking being a bit more reliable with a party or a large pet.

For intelligence to damage, Swashbuckler 3 adds your int as precision damage to any finesse-able weapon (dagger again, surprisingly useful tool). Three levels is a bit much but it may be workable. If the build has just 5 "free" levels then one Marshal and 3 Swashbuckler will net you +Int and +Cha to damage while flanking, which is a pretty nice deal.

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## Dragonsworn

> Not Sure
> 
> 
> I believe that complete arcane states that specific spell prereqs are about the ability to generate the effect so FoR entry is legit.
> 
> Witch Hunter gives 'Kami's Grace' could be interpreted as Divine Grace, or not.  There's also some question about whether it's legit to add any two untyped bonuses from the same stat since ability modifiers are explicitly called out in the srd rules as nonstacking.
> 
> I personally don't find the debate that meritful since there is no explicit requirement.  You may have to backstory for a DM though.
> 
> ...


If you are referring to the passage about Warlocks qualifying for prestige classes, I think it said that invocations that replicate spells generate the same effect, so Warlocks qualify for prestiges. Then again, one _could_ take effect generation so far as to allow such class features as FoR to qualify for entry....
Good catch  :Small Big Grin: 

In reading the link you provided, I found no mention of "ability modifiers are explicitly called out in the srd rules as nonstacking". Are you referring to the debate about whether when you add the same ability score twice on the same thing if the source of the bonus is the ability score itself (thus not stacking, since it's the same source) or the two features that allow you to add the ability score modifier (thus stacking, since there are two different sources providing two different untyped boni to the same thing that just so "happens" to be numerically identical)  :Small Confused: ? Cause otherwise I need clarification

Backstories are not a problem, and I am of the opinion that they should somewhat justify your abilities




> Targetteer & Hit&Run fighter both trade away Tower Shield, so they are incompatible.


 Oooohhhh, and here I thought I had found a neat little combo  :Small Frown:  Oh well, Dexterity twice is still pretty good  :Small Big Grin: 




> Mechanically a katana and a bastard sword are the same and there are a couple deities like Kelemvor with favorite weapon bastard sword. This would also allow you to use a sun sword which counts as a short sword as well and is therefore compatible with the shadow blade feat for dex to damage. I don't think your magic hammer is.


You know, reskinning really hadn't crossed my mind....and I had completely forgotten that tidbit about katanas!!!
This is why I love these boards!!!!!!!

So, to all D&D katana savvy people out there, how does this work? "Mechanically a katana and a bastard sword are the same" means it requires actual refluffing [needing to introduce a "Sun Katana" to the story (which would admittedly be awesome, by the way)], or are the two interchangeable and thus any option that requires, works or allows one also does so with the other?

True, the Hammer of Earth is not compatible with Shadow Blade, which is why in the OP I wanted to reverse engineer the ability and add it to another weapon (the Sun Katana of Earth sounds a bit like a random assortment of abilities, but it would combine all those neat thingies into one terrifying whole) - also, Shadow Blade is not a given yet considering the amount of feats required, so the Hammer of Earth in its original form would be used as the go-to weapon should Shadow Blade be unobtainable




> On the clan stuff, you might be able to mix it. Ancestor feats that require you to be of a specific clan has a sidebar letting you apply it to any race and line of people, so its reasonable to extrapolate that to having specific classes be mixeable to invent your own ancestral traditional classes given theres no limit on OA classes unlike their feats that limit you to one ancestor feat
> 
> One of those rules unclear, seems reasonable, dm probably will okay it ones





> Setting-wise, Clan is incredibly important. A character's clan is the primary faction they are a member of, and clan politics are a big part of the setting. That being said, the character could be born to one clan (Phoenix clan, for Shiba Protector), then marry into another (Lion clan, for Akodo Champion). This is uncommon in setting, but not unheard of.


Seems like those two can easily be used together (thank you oh Oriental Adventures Sages of GitP) so, unless DM vetos it, two clans on one character is an in-setting contentious but mostly rules-legal and lore-supported thing, and more might be feasible through some hoop-jumping. Nice




> I believe that at least one of the Rokugan deities (probably most of them) have Katana as a favored weapon, so that fits too.


 :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek: 

*frantically dives through OA in search on religious lore*

I have not read the book cover to cover, but I cannot find a single god in that book. Are they detailed in another one?




> Marshal, obviously, is +charisma to any one thing, and might have some value since it's "always on", but of course it isn't a broad, sweeping category of things it's applied to. For the build, one Marshal level means charisma to either charging damage or flanking damage, flanking being a bit more reliable with a party or a large pet.
> 
> For intelligence to damage, Swashbuckler 3 adds your int as precision damage to any finesse-able weapon (dagger again, surprisingly useful tool). Three levels is a bit much but it may be workable. If the build has just 5 "free" levels then one Marshal and 3 Swashbuckler will net you +Int and +Cha to damage while flanking, which is a pretty nice deal.


I had looked at Marshal and Swashbuckler and discarded them as needing to attack targets not immune to sneak attack (Swashbuckler) or needing flanking (Marshal). But ever since Anthrowhale suggested Hit&Run Fighter it got me thinking. A Lightbringer Rogue ignores sneak atttack immunity while flanking (and your suggestion still leaves one level free  :Small Wink: ), so that could bring Marshal and Swashbuckler nicely together. And since the build also takes 2 Swordsage levels, the Distracting Ember maneuver could qualify for all [the Lightbringer Rogue *technically* is not incompatible with Feat Rogue, since they replace different things, but "Whenever you flank a creature that is immune to sneak attack damage, you still gain half of your sneak attack dice as bonus damage" does imply that you need sneak attack damage. This could be solved by not taking Feat Rogue, or by taking the Hit&Run Fighter allong with Sneak Attack Fighter and the variant that expands the Fighter skill list (Thug? Dity Thug? Dirty Fighter?), but at this point I need to clarify which levels and feats will eventually be added, and anyone who is flat-foot immune completely shuts the combo down]. In addition, the Cloak of Deception maneuver could render the character invisible and thus trigger flat-footed which triggers Hit&Run Fighter, so that would add Dexterity, Intelligence and Charisma to damage if I can find a way to take two swift actions in one turn apart from the Swordsage capstone (wasn't there a magic item that did that?)! Yay, this is starting to come together  :Small Big Grin: 

Still need to find a way to add Dexterity, Intelligence and Charisma to attack as well

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## AsuraKyoko

> Seems like those two can easily be used together (thank you oh Oriental Adventures Sages of GitP) so, unless DM vetos it, two clans on one character is an in-setting contentious but mostly rules-legal and lore-supported thing, and more might be feasible through some hoop-jumping. Nice


I don't know if I'd even say that it's contentious in-setting. Mostly, inter-clan marriage is for political reasons; most people marry other members of their own clan, but some of them marry members of other clans when there is something important to be gained from doing so.




> *frantically dives through OA in search on religious lore*
> 
> I have not read the book cover to cover, but I cannot find a single god in that book. Are they detailed in another one?


I don't know if it's detailed in any of the 3.5e books, but each clan has a founding deity (They also name a bunch of stuff after said deity).

Each deity has a katana that they used, so it's reasonable to assume that most of them would have katana as their favored weapon. Shiba and Akodo would both definitely have katanas as their favored weapon.

--------

As an aside, Rokugan is actually the setting of its own RPG (and originally came from a card game) called Legend of the Five Rings. It's a pretty cool setting, and the game is fun and designed to model fantasy samurai drama; I highly suggest checking it out. Let me know if you are interested in learning more about it, I'd be happy to elaborate!

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## Anthrowhale

> In reading the link you provided, I found no mention of "ability modifiers are explicitly called out in the srd rules as nonstacking". Are you referring to the debate about whether when you add the same ability score twice on the same thing if the source of the bonus is the ability score itself (thus not stacking, since it's the same source) or the two features that allow you to add the ability score modifier (thus stacking, since there are two different sources providing two different untyped boni to the same thing that just so "happens" to be numerically identical) ?


It seems to require a rather precise parsing.



> ...modifiers to a given check...do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source...


And then we have:



> Ability Modifier ... The bonus or penalty associated with a particular ability score.


So, if you get a "a bonus equal to her charisma bonus" from Divine Grace that seems to be cumulative with Kami's Grace "applies her Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all saving throws."  Since "Kami's Grace" (source) applies the charisma modifier (type) and Divine Grace (source) applies an untyped bonus(type) that happens to equal the charisma bonus.  

On the other hand, Indomitable Zeal(source) from the Crusader says "You add your Charisma bonus (if any) as a bonus on Will saves." applies a charisma modifier (type), so it will not stack with Kami's Grace since the types match.  (It also does not stack with Divine Grace due to special wording in Indomitable Zeal.)

Looking at some other possibilities: No Thought would not stack with Intuitive Attack or Zen Archery since all of these use the wisdom modifier.  Similarly Akodo Champion's Ancestral Favor uses the Charisma modifier directly making it nonstacking with Kami's Grace and Indomitable Zeal.

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## Dragonsworn

> I don't know if I'd even say that it's contentious in-setting. Mostly, inter-clan marriage is for political reasons; most people marry other members of their own clan, but some of them marry members of other clans when there is something important to be gained from doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if it's detailed in any of the 3.5e books, but each clan has a founding deity (They also name a bunch of stuff after said deity).
> 
> Each deity has a katana that they used, so it's reasonable to assume that most of them would have katana as their favored weapon. Shiba and Akodo would both definitely have katanas as their favored weapon.
> 
> --------
> ...


You know, I have been trying to figure more about Rokugan these days (in an effort to read up on the Hammer of Earth) and I found out that it is almost a different game (well, setting anyway) of which only a couple of books are published for "standard" D&D (sort of like Dragonlance, I guess? Minus the lawsuits?). Lorewise, it seems rather interesting! Am I right to assume that it utilises the basic D&D d20 system but refluffs/alters anything outside of its specific setting to maintain the atmosphere and the feel of the world? Also, is it set in its own "world" or in one of the worlds most D&D games use?

And more pertinent to this thread, is there an online source to read up on clan deities?




> It seems to require a rather precise parsing.
> 
> And then we have:
> 
> So, if you get a "a bonus equal to her charisma bonus" from Divine Grace that seems to be cumulative with Kami's Grace "applies her Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all saving throws."  Since "Kami's Grace" (source) applies the charisma modifier (type) and Divine Grace (source) applies an untyped bonus(type) that happens to equal the charisma bonus.  
> 
> On the other hand, Indomitable Zeal(source) from the Crusader says "You add your Charisma bonus (if any) as a bonus on Will saves." applies a charisma modifier (type), so it will not stack with Kami's Grace since the types match.  (It also does not stack with Divine Grace due to special wording in Indomitable Zeal.)
> 
> Looking at some other possibilities: No Thought would not stack with Intuitive Attack or Zen Archery since all of these use the wisdom modifier.  Similarly Akodo Champion's Ancestral Favor uses the Charisma modifier directly making it nonstacking with Kami's Grace and Indomitable Zeal.


You mean because the word "modifier" is used, multiple "modifiers" don't stack because they are either the source or the type of bonus? I don't think the intent was that! The designers probably initially wanted to create a base of rules so that when inevitably more content was published things could not be pile added to absurdity, hence the stacking rules. But it doesn't seem they intended for the "modifier" per se to be either the source or the type, they just worded it that way for simplicity

Sorry if that is not what you meant

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## Anthrowhale

> You mean because the word "modifier" is used, multiple "modifiers" don't stack because they are either the source or the type of bonus?


Well "modifier" in isolation doesn't make sense to me, because there are many distinct modifiers.  

But, "charisma modifier" is a game concept, and since Indomitable Zeal and Kami's Grace both apply a charisma bonus (=positive charisma modifier) to a Will save, they may be ruled to not stack since they have the same type ("charisma modifier").

The build you have also could be poked at from the source angle since you are using the "AC Bonus" source multiple times with different types ("intelligence modifier", "wisdom modifier", "charisma modifier", "constitution modifier").

The way any individual DM rules of course varies, but hopefully it's helpful to know in advance the reasonable possibilities.

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## AsuraKyoko

> You know, I have been trying to figure more about Rokugan these days (in an effort to read up on the Hammer of Earth) and I found out that it is almost a different game (well, setting anyway) of which only a couple of books are published for "standard" D&D (sort of like Dragonlance, I guess? Minus the lawsuits?). Lorewise, it seems rather interesting! Am I right to assume that it utilises the basic D&D d20 system but refluffs/alters anything outside of its specific setting to maintain the atmosphere and the feel of the world? Also, is it set in its own "world" or in one of the worlds most D&D games use?


The L5R rpg is actually very different from D&D. The current edition is published by Fantasy Flight, and it uses pools of special dice for its rolls. The previous editions were done by a different company, and they use a somewhat different system using pools of d10s. I've played both the newest edition, and the previous edition (4th), and they are both quite good. They actually give focus to things beyond just combat, and there are a large number of schools (character classes) that are dedicated entirely to social encounters.

Being a completely separate game, it's set in its own setting, which the wiki (linked below) has a lot of information on. (Be careful not to accidentally lose an entire afternoon exploring the wiki, like I have many times  :Small Wink: )

It's an interesting system, and I highly suggest trying it out if you get the opportunity.




> And more pertinent to this thread, is there an online source to read up on clan deities?


The L5R wiki has a _ton_ of information. A good place to start would be here: https://l5r.fandom.com/wiki/Kami_(clan_founders)

It reads like a creation myth because it basically is, though in-setting it's historical fact.

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## Dragonsworn

> Well "modifier" in isolation doesn't make sense to me, because there are many distinct modifiers.  
> 
> But, "charisma modifier" is a game concept, and since Indomitable Zeal and Kami's Grace both apply a charisma bonus (=positive charisma modifier) to a Will save, they may be ruled to not stack since they have the same type ("charisma modifier").
> 
> The build you have also could be poked at from the source angle since you are using the "AC Bonus" source multiple times with different types ("intelligence modifier", "wisdom modifier", "charisma modifier", "constitution modifier").
> 
> The way any individual DM rules of course varies, but hopefully it's helpful to know in advance the reasonable possibilities.


I can see how you would read it that way, and true, some DMs might

On the other hand, I do believe in the PHB all the possible types were listed, and "modifier" type was not among them. I am certain later splatbooks would have introduced other types as well, but I doubt "modifier type" would be one of them. So a player in such a scenario could make a RAW argument against such a ruling (and they would be right). Whether you consider the ability score or the class feature the source argument still somewhat stands, but since a phrasing along the lines of "you gain a bonus to your saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier" instead of "you add your Charisma modifier on all saving throws" would have both clarified and be mechanically different (in undoubtedly identifying the source), I do believe the source to be the class features and not the ability score, but I can still see a DM ruling otherwise (are there class features with the former phrasing? Cause they could be used in an argument!)




> The L5R rpg is actually very different from D&D. The current edition is published by Fantasy Flight, and it uses pools of special dice for its rolls. The previous editions were done by a different company, and they use a somewhat different system using pools of d10s. I've played both the newest edition, and the previous edition (4th), and they are both quite good. They actually give focus to things beyond just combat, and there are a large number of schools (character classes) that are dedicated entirely to social encounters.
> 
> Being a completely separate game, it's set in its own setting, which the wiki (linked below) has a lot of information on. (Be careful not to accidentally lose an entire afternoon exploring the wiki, like I have many times )
> 
> It's an interesting system, and I highly suggest trying it out if you get the opportunity.
> 
> 
> 
> The L5R wiki has a _ton_ of information. A good place to start would be here: https://l5r.fandom.com/wiki/Kami_(clan_founders)
> ...


Althouh I really adore any and all things fantasy, I am somewhat daunted by the prospect of learning an entirelly new system [this is the reason I have only tangentially delved into World of Darkness, despite having a friend with very in depth knowledge of that system in its entirety (all or most of the relative games, such as Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Changeling and so on)], as in order to reach the understanding of D&D I have now [which is in no way comparable to some of the veterans of this forum, but it is by far the highest among the people I play with (and why I am almost always the DM of my groups)] I have devoted hours upon hours of reading and online venturing

That being said, I have literally spent entire weekends on various wikis, so I am sure this one will come in very handy  :Small Big Grin:  :Small Cool:

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## Beni-Kujaku

> Althouh I really adore any and all things fantasy, I am somewhat daunted by the prospect of learning an entirelly new system [this is the reason I have only tangentially delved into World of Darkness, despite having a friend with very in depth knowledge of that system in its entirety (all or most of the relative games, such as Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Changeling and so on)], as in order to reach the understanding of D&D I have now [which is in no way comparable to some of the veterans of this forum, but it is by far the highest among the people I play with (and why I am almost always the DM of my groups)] I have devoted hours upon hours of reading and online venturing
> 
> That being said, I have literally spent entire weekends on various wikis, so I am sure this one will come in very handy


If you don't want to learn about L5R, 3.0's Oriental Adventures is basically "Rokugan Campaign Setting", giving you most of the mechanics, lore and main actors of the world. Fill the holes with "low-magic medieval Japan" and you should be good to go. Make sure to read and implement p. 67 of Oriental Adventures "Alignment and Honor". Honor is one of the most important part of the life in Rokugan, and there should be a tangible benefit to be honor-bound. Not all clans give the same importance to honor, but no one even accepts talking to someone known to be an honorless dog. Give each clan a clear personality and make sure each PC chooses one and understands what it means to be of the diplomatic Crane, of the proactive and noble Lion, of the duplicitous but still loyal Scorpion (the closest thing you get to a Chaotic character), of the headstrong Crab, the curious and innovative Unicorn, the traditionalist and powerful Dragon, or of the scholarly and pious Phoenix. 

The lore of the world is pretty detailed, but I love more than anything else the small anecdotes about each clan, so I can only advise you to go read the L5R (Legend of the Five Rings) books, even if you don't intend to play the game itself. I don't know much about the various editions, but I have friends who think the lore is best in 3rd edition L5R. Take that the way you want.

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## AsuraKyoko

> Althouh I really adore any and all things fantasy, I am somewhat daunted by the prospect of learning an entirelly new system [this is the reason I have only tangentially delved into World of Darkness, despite having a friend with very in depth knowledge of that system in its entirety (all or most of the relative games, such as Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Changeling and so on)], as in order to reach the understanding of D&D I have now [which is in no way comparable to some of the veterans of this forum, but it is by far the highest among the people I play with (and why I am almost always the DM of my groups)] I have devoted hours upon hours of reading and online venturing
> 
> That being said, I have literally spent entire weekends on various wikis, so I am sure this one will come in very handy





> If you don't want to learn about L5R, 3.0's Oriental Adventures is basically "Rokugan Campaign Setting", giving you most of the mechanics, lore and main actors of the world. Fill the holes with "low-magic medieval Japan" and you should be good to go. Make sure to read and implement p. 67 of Oriental Adventures "Alignment and Honor". Honor is one of the most important part of the life in Rokugan, and there should be a tangible benefit to be honor-bound. Not all clans give the same importance to honor, but no one even accepts talking to someone known to be an honorless dog. Give each clan a clear personality and make sure each PC chooses one and understands what it means to be of the diplomatic Crane, of the proactive and noble Lion, of the duplicitous but still loyal Scorpion (the closest thing you get to a Chaotic character), of the headstrong Crab, the curious and innovative Unicorn, the traditionalist and powerful Dragon, or of the scholarly and pious Phoenix.


Yeah, Honor is really, really important! Another thing to note is Taint, which is important to the setting in that some of the main enemies (the dark god Fu Leng and his minions) spread taint. Being tainted is the sort of thing that gets you either executed, completely cast out of polite society, or, if you are very, very lucky and only mildly tainted, banished to a monastery and required to drink a tea that suppresses the taint in you. (Being a Maho-Tsukai, the predecessor to the tainted spellcaster classes, is grounds for immediate execution.)

L5R doesn't require the kind of system mastery that D&D 3.5 does, it's significantly more balanced with a lot less trap options. In particular, the latest edition is pretty good about making all types of characters effective at their chosen roles; you pretty much have to try to make a character bad.

As an avid player of Mage: the Awakening, I can highly recommend the World/Chronicles of Darkness! It definite does want a lot of time investment to understand, especially for Mage.




> The lore of the world is pretty detailed, but I love more than anything else the small anecdotes about each clan, so I can only advise you to go read the L5R (Legend of the Five Rings) books, even if you don't intend to play the game itself. I don't know much about the various editions, but I have friends who think the lore is best in 3rd edition L5R. Take that the way you want.


I can second this, the books are great reads, even without the mechanics. There are also a bunch of novels, though I have not personally read those yet.

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## Anthrowhale

> I
> On the other hand, I do believe in the PHB all the possible types were listed, and "modifier" type was not among them.


I'm not sure where the wording in the SRD arises from---usually it's somewhere in the PHB or DMG.



> I
> Whether you consider the ability score or the class feature the source argument still somewhat stands, but since a phrasing along the lines of "you gain a bonus to your saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier" instead of "you add your Charisma modifier on all saving throws" would have both clarified and be mechanically different (in undoubtedly identifying the source), I do believe the source to be the class features and not the ability score, but I can still see a DM ruling otherwise (are there class features with the former phrasing? Cause they could be used in an argument!)


Divine Grace says: "...gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws..."  So Divine Grace is untyped.

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## Dragonsworn

> If you don't want to learn about L5R, 3.0's Oriental Adventures is basically "Rokugan Campaign Setting", giving you most of the mechanics, lore and main actors of the world. Fill the holes with "low-magic medieval Japan" and you should be good to go. Make sure to read and implement p. 67 of Oriental Adventures "Alignment and Honor". Honor is one of the most important part of the life in Rokugan, and there should be a tangible benefit to be honor-bound. Not all clans give the same importance to honor, but no one even accepts talking to someone known to be an honorless dog. Give each clan a clear personality and make sure each PC chooses one and understands what it means to be of the diplomatic Crane, of the proactive and noble Lion, of the duplicitous but still loyal Scorpion (the closest thing you get to a Chaotic character), of the headstrong Crab, the curious and innovative Unicorn, the traditionalist and powerful Dragon, or of the scholarly and pious Phoenix. 
> 
> The lore of the world is pretty detailed, but I love more than anything else the small anecdotes about each clan, so I can only advise you to go read the L5R (Legend of the Five Rings) books, even if you don't intend to play the game itself. I don't know much about the various editions, but I have friends who think the lore is best in 3rd edition L5R. Take that the way you want.


Well, I already went straight against AsuraKyoko's advice and spent the entire afternoon yestrerday browsing that wiki (not that I haven't done so before). It is definitely a very lore-rich setting, and I already have a player who wants to play a Samurai (the Complete Warrior one, I think), so I might dive further into it given the time

Anyone has any specific books to recommend? Let's say a n00b with no prior knowledge of the setting wants to start reading with absolutely no spoilers, name some books you would recommend and in what reading order




> Yeah, Honor is really, really important! Another thing to note is Taint, which is important to the setting in that some of the main enemies (the dark god Fu Leng and his minions) spread taint. Being tainted is the sort of thing that gets you either executed, completely cast out of polite society, or, if you are very, very lucky and only mildly tainted, banished to a monastery and required to drink a tea that suppresses the taint in you. (Being a Maho-Tsukai, the predecessor to the tainted spellcaster classes, is grounds for immediate execution.)
> 
> L5R doesn't require the kind of system mastery that D&D 3.5 does, it's significantly more balanced with a lot less trap options. In particular, the latest edition is pretty good about making all types of characters effective at their chosen roles; you pretty much have to try to make a character bad.
> 
> As an avid player of Mage: the Awakening, I can highly recommend the World/Chronicles of Darkness! It definite does want a lot of time investment to understand, especially for Mage.
> 
> 
> 
> I can second this, the books are great reads, even without the mechanics. There are also a bunch of novels, though I have not personally read those yet.


I did see that about Taint, and I have some basic knowledge of it from the effort that was done to use it in D&D 3.5 - I believe the basics are the same?

Balancing a game all around is interesting...I might take a look at it




> I'm not sure where the wording in the SRD arises from---usually it's somewhere in the PHB or DMG.
> 
> Divine Grace says: "...gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws..."  So Divine Grace is untyped.


Not entirely sure but I believe the DMG uses the same phrasing as the PHB for this specific case

Huh. It has been so long I read the base classes that I did not remember this wording. So, if one considers the sourse the class feature and not the Ability Score, then Divine Grace stacks with everything!

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