# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  I knew Sorcadins could nova, but holy cow!

## nickl_2000

Last night we were playing and ran into some fiends, which works out well in a lot of ways for the story.  In comes our Parties Paladin/Sorcerer who is currently wielding the Artifact McGuffin Sword of killing things (especially Fiends who are working for the BBEG).

My PC hastes the Paladin on turn #1 (because he's already an absolute monster, why not make him more so?)
Paladin takes this turn.  Bonus action Quickened Hold Monster against 3 monsters including the Eldritch Horror like fiend we are fighting (big, 3 headed, leach tail, very ugly and scary).  Aforementioned Horror fails his save against Hold Monster Paladin charges it with his move and unleashes the fury that can only produced by an angry Paladin that is fresh off a long rest.

Proceeds to hit all 3 attacks auto-crits from Hold Monster, getting a bonus to damage from McGuffin and drops a level 4 smite each time.  The smallest hit from his rolls was for 112 damage.  Took down the Eldritch Horror in a single round, doing about *350 total damage* to it!  More than enough to banish it back to whatever level of the underworld it came from.

Sure a lot of resources were burned from the Hold Monster, Haste, and 3 level 4 spell smites, but how often do you get to drop that much damage in a single round and explode a monster like that?

----------


## Cikomyr2

> Last night we were playing and ran into some fiends, which works out well in a lot of ways for the story.  In comes our Parties Paladin/Sorcerer who is currently wielding the Artifact McGuffin Sword of killing things (especially Fiends who are working for the BBEG).
> 
> My PC hastes the Paladin on turn #1 (because he's already an absolute monster, why not make him more so?)
> Paladin takes this turn.  Bonus action Quickened Hold Monster against 3 monsters including the Eldritch Horror like fiend we are fighting (big, 3 headed, leach tail, very ugly and scary).  Aforementioned Horror fails his save against Hold Monster Paladin charges it with his move and unleashes the fury that can only produced by an angry Paladin that is fresh off a long rest.
> 
> Proceeds to hit all 3 attacks auto-crits from Hold Monster, getting a bonus to damage from McGuffin and drops a level 4 smite each time.  The smallest hit from his rolls was for 112 damage.  Took down the Eldritch Horror in a single round, doing about *350 total damage* to it!  More than enough to banish it back to whatever level of the underworld it came from.
> 
> Sure a lot of resources were burned from the Hold Monster, Haste, and 3 level 4 spell smites, but how often do you get to drop that much damage in a single round and explode a monster like that?


Quickened anything as your bonus actions, autocrit paladin hasted smite at full spell level.

Like you said, its a nova move. Its overpowered. And the paladin is nekked until the end of the day without his resource. Paladins are especially great at going Nova, thats the game balance.

There was a thread about a guy who was worried about the OP of his Bladesinger wizard, but when he revealed he spent 3-4 spell slots self buffing, most people just went "yhea i guess". Because thats the balance of the game.

----------


## nickl_2000

> Quickened anything as your bonus actions, autocrit paladin hasted smite at full spell level.
> 
> Like you said, its a nova move. Its overpowered. And the paladin is nekked until the end of the day without his resource. Paladins are especially great at going Nova, thats the game balance.
> 
> There was a thread about a guy who was worried about the OP of his Bladesinger wizard, but when he revealed he spent 3-4 spell slots self buffing, most people just went "yhea i guess". Because thats the balance of the game.


Don't get me wrong, this wasn't a complaint.  We are a group of friends who have played for a long time and have 0 issues with someone showing off.  I just thought it was absolutely awesome!

----------


## stoutstien

With that amount of resources spent I'd hope it would work.

----------


## Pex

Did the Eldritch Horror have Magic Resistance? Did it have Legendary Resistance?

There is nothing wrong with a nova attack doing hundreds of damage in a high level game. That's a feature. It is a problem if that happens every turn, but when it happens once in a while and/or only in the BBEG combats when the circumstances align put on your sunglasses and enjoy the show.

----------


## Aimeryan

Just make sure to put a full day of combat before the Long Rest, otherwise its unfair on other players and the DM. Sorcadins *can* nova, that doesn't mean they *should* nova - sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't, its not just auto-win.

That said, yeah Artifact weapon and the other player's Haste is as much key here as the Sorcadin itself. An action-surging Fighter with PAM/CBE & GWM/SS can also nova hard if another player casts Hold Monster; no Haste, Smite, or Sorcery Points needed - just one spell slot and a Short Rest resource.

----------


## nickl_2000

> Did the Eldritch Horror have Magic Resistance? *Yes* Did it have Legendary Resistance? *No*
> 
> There is nothing wrong with a nova attack doing hundreds of damage in a high level game. That's a feature. It is a problem if that happens every turn, but when it happens once in a while and/or only in the BBEG combats when the circumstances align put on your sunglasses and enjoy the show.


Yup, at level 16 you are doing some serious damage and in a situation like this we love it.  Circumstances aligned really well here, spells dropped right, the horror failed the save despite having advantage against it (rolled a 2 and a 1), we knew that we were almost completely done clearing the castle since we had previously gotten a map of it from allies and had cleared almost everywhere on it.  It was a perfect time to nova and it was super fun to watch!

Also, we joke that any kill that came from a buff is considered a kill by the buffer.  So, I claimed this kill since it was the third attack that he only got due to my haste spell  :Small Cool: 




> Just make sure to put a full day of combat before the Long Rest, otherwise its unfair on other players and the DM. Sorcadins *can* nova, that doesn't mean they *should* nova - sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't, its not just auto-win.
> 
> That said, yeah Artifact weapon and the other player's Haste is as much key here as the Sorcadin itself. An action-surging Fighter with PAM/CBE & GWM/SS can also nova hard if another player casts Hold Monster; no Haste, Smite, or Sorcery Points needed - just one spell slot and a Short Rest resource.


Agreed, the haste that I put on him was because it looked like a nasty fight and the Sorcadin has the artifact.  Boosting the damage of a PC who is built for this type of encounter was a way more effective use of my turn than what I would have done otherwise.  That's part of the fun when you are playing with a group of friends who don't mind it when one PC shines in combat and other don't.  

Besides, we had just recently had a combat where the Sorcidin only got to throw two cantrips while my PC and and Wizard made nearly the entire battlefield deadly (upcast Wall of Fire and Swarm of Insects in basically the same areas) and the Warlock just shoved everyone who came out of the deadly zone back in with Eldritch Blast forced movements.  Everyone gets a chance to shine and that is why this game is awesome, especially with friends.

----------


## animorte

> Also, we joke that any kill that came from a buff is considered a kill by the buffer.  So, I claimed this kill since it was the third attack that he only got due to my haste spell


That sounds pretty cool. I like it.




> That's part of the fun when you are playing with a group of friends who don't mind it when one PC shines in combat and other don't.  
> 
> Everyone gets a chance to shine and that is why this game is awesome, especially with friends.


So wholesome, great start to my day!  :Small Big Grin: 

_Also jealous, friends and I dont have nearly as much time lately for the gaming._

----------


## firelistener

I love stuff like this, but Legendary Resistance is usually the rain on that parade lol. Glad to hear the stars aligned for an epic moment in your game.

This type of thing is also why I usually avoid having single strong monsters fight alone as DM, but if it doesn't happen often then a technique like this can be really fun for the players to get to use.

----------


## nickl_2000

> This type of thing is also why I usually avoid having single strong monsters fight alone as DM, but if it doesn't happen often then a technique like this can be really fun for the players to get to use.


Oh it wasn't alone.  There were 2 other melee devils and a flying fury who was shooting poisoned arrows above, and there was a boosted Horned Devil that was going to join the fight in round 2, but noped out of there when the horror died in round 1 (he owed the horror a favor, but when the horror died, the favor was null and void and it wasn't worth his time).

So, there was still some serious fighting that happened and we took some abuse in the party.  The main baddie was dropped though, thank goodness.

----------


## Cikomyr2

> I love stuff like this, but Legendary Resistance is usually the rain on that parade lol. Glad to hear the stars aligned for an epic moment in your game.
> 
> This type of thing is also why I usually avoid having single strong monsters fight alone as DM, but if it doesn't happen often then a technique like this can be really fun for the players to get to use.


100% this. This is a room-clearing manoeuver, but unless you already wasted the Legendary resistances of the BBEG, you just wont suceed Hold Person.

To be honest, Hold Person on a BBEG is usually the end of the fight.

----------


## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Just make sure to put a full day of combat before the Long Rest, otherwise its unfair on other players and the DM. Sorcadins *can* nova, that doesn't mean they *should* nova - sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't, its not just auto-win.
> 
> That said, yeah Artifact weapon and the other player's Haste is as much key here as the Sorcadin itself. An action-surging Fighter with PAM/CBE & GWM/SS can also nova hard if another player casts Hold Monster; no Haste, Smite, or Sorcery Points needed - just one spell slot and a Short Rest resource.


This aligns with my experience and take away as well.  For all the hand-wringing over some martial-caster disparity we've often found high level weapon users extremely good at taking down higher level foes with lots of hp, resistances, immunities, and legendary resistances.  Admittedly, that's somewhat due to, as in the OP's case, access to magical weapons.  But, to me, those magical weapons are thematic, so why not include them?
That said, level 16 is about as far as we usually play, and it's in large part due to the situation described being fairly common.  In order to challenge an experienced group you're having to throw the kitchen sink at them, and once you've beaten Tiamat, Orcus, or whatever it's time to go back to level 1.

----------


## Willie the Duck

I don't want to take anything away from this, as OP clearly is having fun and is recognizing the resource expense behind this. I do want to point out that we are retroactively analyzing a situation where everything did work out right. Haste went off before the paladin's turn; the BBEG was non-flying within a (haste-boosted) movement distance of the paladin; they failed their save (which, given the sorcadin is splitting ASIs or magic items between Cha and Str, is not certain); the paladin hit each time (even with advantage from them being held, is not a sure thing); and the sorcadin had the slots (they felt they could devote to the situation) left. 

All that is to point out my general point -- when nova builds/strategies work, they really work; when they don't, they often really don't. Not necessarily 'I tried to nova, it failed, and now my character is dead,' but more along the lines of 'I built this guy around nova-ing, but a prime candidate scenario comes up every third adventure, it works half the time, and in the meantime the straight-up fighter dominates every fight and the full-casters are 2-3 spell levels ahead in cool tricks.'

So yes, nova characters rock when everything lines up. It should, given what they sacrifice to be optimized to do so. My only real griefs with it is never before 5e did the venn diagram of my conception of 'paladin' significantly overlap with 'resource-nova mechanisms' and that I rather dislike weird confluence of rules effects like paladin-smites double-advancing by taking non-paladin class levels.

----------


## Rav

> I don't want to take anything away from this, as OP clearly is having fun and is recognizing the resource expense behind this. I do want to point out that we are retroactively analyzing a situation where everything did work out right. Haste went off before the paladin's turn; the BBEG was non-flying within a (haste-boosted) movement distance of the paladin; they failed their save (which, given the sorcadin is splitting ASIs or magic items between Cha and Str, is not certain); the paladin hit each time (even with advantage from them being held, is not a sure thing); and the sorcadin had the slots (they felt they could devote to the situation) left. 
> 
> All that is to point out my general point -- when nova builds/strategies work, they really work; when they don't, they often really don't. Not necessarily 'I tried to nova, it failed, and now my character is dead,' but more along the lines of 'I built this guy around nova-ing, but a prime candidate scenario comes up every third adventure, it works half the time, and in the meantime the straight-up fighter dominates every fight and the full-casters are 2-3 spell levels ahead in cool tricks.'
> 
> So yes, nova characters rock when everything lines up. It should, given what they sacrifice to be optimized to do so. My only real griefs with it is never before 5e did the venn diagram of my conception of 'paladin' significantly overlap with 'resource-nova mechanisms' and that I rather dislike weird confluence of rules effects like paladin-smites double-advancing by taking non-paladin class levels.


Yeah... I'm going to need to just point out the flaw in all of this. You seem to be implying that a Sorcadin is somehow not effective when not Nova-ing. That's.... very far from true.

----------


## Hael

Weve seen this before in a lot of our games over the years.  Cha caster hybrids (usually with hexblade) can oneshot standard BBEG statblocks pretty trivially in the tier3 range.

DM has to either add hitpoints, or better, include buffers (twin BBEGs!).

Nova in 5e is still pretty overpowered generally speaking.  People make a big deal out of resourceless damage, but that really does not jive with how we see combat play out for the most part.  In 5e its all about CC, and then big kill damage to prevent as much enemy action economy as possible.

----------


## Dork_Forge

What did this Sorcadin build and the items involved look like?

----------


## MrStabby

> Just make sure to put a full day of combat before the Long Rest, otherwise its unfair on other players and the DM. Sorcadins *can* nova, that doesn't mean they *should* nova - sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't, its not just auto-win.
> 
> That said, yeah Artifact weapon and the other player's Haste is as much key here as the Sorcadin itself. An action-surging Fighter with PAM/CBE & GWM/SS can also nova hard if another player casts Hold Monster; no Haste, Smite, or Sorcery Points needed - just one spell slot and a Short Rest resource.



I would be even more specific - make sure that out of this combat day there is an even more powerful, more epic monter to come so that the rest of the party gets to take part in a big, splashy memorable encounter.

----------


## Witty Username

You said 16th level? What is your mix of sorcerer and paladin?

----------


## da newt

I don't know - sounds like this table had an epic moment where everything went in their favor so a PC got to shine for a moment and the responses have mostly been negative.  Why?

----------


## Jerrykhor

I'm just surprised when a monster at that high a level do not have Legendary Resistance.

----------


## Arkhios

Been there, done that with a Paladin 5 (no multiclass, yet; however, the paladin in question is a _Dual Wielder_ with *The Feat*).

Had an encounter with a (young) shadow black dragon at level 5, with Divine Favor cast in advance, landed two solid crits with a Dragon Slayer Longsword and a normal hit with a non-magical Warhammer  in a row. Used two 2nd level smites and one 1st level smite, and dealt a whopping 100+ damage in single turn. At character level 5.

Suffice to say, the dragon didn't manage to even puff a smoke.

I can't remember the exact amount of damage since it was several years ago, but here's the dice that were rolled so you can check it out yourself:
Str 18, +1 longsword (Dragon Slayer): +5 bonus to damage as a main-hand weapon (total +10)
15d8 (two critical hits with +1 _Dragon Slayer_ longsword and one normal hit with mundane warhammer + two 2nd level critical smites, one 1st level normal smite 2d8, 2d8, 1d8 + 4d8, 4d8, 2d8)
5d4 (divine favor on two critical hits and one normal hit: 2d4+2d4+1d4)
12d6 (_Dragon Slayer_ bonus damage vs dragons from two critical hits: 6d6+6d6)

on average that's 132 damage, with 3 spell slots burned, in just one turn.

----------


## Chronos

Something similar happened at our table once.  The paladin was a pure paladin (we don't do multiclassing), and the crit came naturally, not from a Hold, and the anti-fiend weapon the paladin was wielding was much weaker, only a bonus d6, but on the other hand, the fiend in question happened to be a Shadow Demon, which means vulnerability to radiant damage.

----------


## Aimeryan

> Yeah... I'm going to need to just point out the flaw in all of this. You seem to be implying that a Sorcadin is somehow not effective when not Nova-ing. That's.... very far from true.


I wouldn't say this is being implied. If I understand correctly, the point being made is that nova'ing can be effective, but it may also not be. A lot of things have to line up for this kind of thing. Essentially, don't rely on it.

Specifically regarding Sorcadin, with two levels of Warlock (Undead or Hexblade are the usual choice) they can be very effective at what they do (via Watcher Paladin: aura support, potential nova, when needed emergency tanking; via Undead Warlock: reliable ranged damage, Form of Dread, refreshable level 1 slots; via Divine Sorcerer: battlefield control, persistent controlled aoe damage). They won't put out the consistent high dps of a damage build, they wont put out the combat-changing spells of a full caster, they wont tank as well as a Bearbarian with a complicit DM, but they do provide that niche aura and can do a bit of all the other stuff.

---




> I don't know - sounds like this table had an epic moment where everything went in their favor so a PC got to shine for a moment and the responses have mostly been negative.  Why?


I don't think they have been negative, just pointing out the practicality on the situation so it is not mistaken as being a norm that needs shutting down.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Yeah... I'm going to need to just point out the flaw in all of this. You seem to be implying that a Sorcadin is somehow not effective when not Nova-ing. That's.... very far from true.


Yeah... I'm not going to respond to conversations constructed in this kind of format. I don't know if you were going for the 'Yeah if you could go ahead that'd be great' meme or something, but it comes off as unnecessarily hostile and undeservedly condescending. If you wanted to, you could reframe it in a way that reasonable adults converse and we can discuss things further. I would genuinely appreciate that since I think you've missed or mischaracterized what I stated or the implications thereof. 




> I wouldn't say this is being implied. If I understand correctly, the point being made is that nova'ing can be effective, but it may also not be. A lot of things have to line up for this kind of thing. Essentially, don't rely on it.


Closer certainly. My general point is to recognize that smite attempts won't always be successful, the situation where a well-executed nova will make or break the day (either in team victories or memorable moments), and to factor that into your decision on whether to play a nova-capable class/build. It is the situation of looking retroactively from an event where everything did work (that will of course will paint an overwhelmingly positive picture of the strategy that got one there) that I'm focusing on. Certainly sorcadins can do things other than nova, but there is a cost (there had better be, given how powerful it is when it does work out). That needs to be take into account, and thus an honest and forthright analysis of the enjoyment benefit of Nova-ing (across all situations) will make that accounting more accurate.




> Specifically regarding Sorcadin, with two levels of Warlock (Undead or Hexblade are the usual choice) they can be very effective at what they do (via Watcher Paladin: aura support, potential nova, when needed emergency tanking; via Undead Warlock: reliable ranged damage, Form of Dread, refreshable level 1 slots; via Divine Sorcerer: battlefield control, persistent controlled aoe damage). They won't put out the consistent high dps of a damage build, they wont put out the combat-changing spells of a full caster, they wont tank as well as a Bearbarian with a complicit DM, but they do provide that niche aura and can do a bit of all the other stuff.


They can do all sorts of amazing things, to be sure. Particularly in the situation that many seem to find normal where the 4-8 encounters* don't come up, and thus having Long-Rest-recharging abilities may be preferable to at-wills and the like. Whether the Bearbarian or Battlemaster will outfight/tank and whether the full caster will out-support/aoe/battlefield control an amalgam build like this will come down to playstyle, encounters seen, and how long one is stuck at levels where the single-class character already has their widgit (such as extra attack or the next spell level) up and running. It's good that the game has multiple routes to effectiveness/enjoyable play.  
*that supposedly will deplete parties or however it's actually phrased

---



I don't think they have been negative, just pointing out the practicality on the situation so it is not mistaken as being a norm that needs shutting down.[/QUOTE]

----------


## 5eNeedsDarksun

> I don't know - sounds like this table had an epic moment where everything went in their favor so a PC got to shine for a moment and the responses have mostly been negative.  Why?


Honestly, I don't think the responses were as negative as they could have been.  On what appears to have been planned to be a significant encounter for this group, 2 characters won initiative, if I'm interpreting correctly, and were able to eliminate the threat completely in round 1 before the rest of the group could do anything.
I suppose if this was a 'one off' it could be considered an epic moment, but I'm unsure that this can't be repeated at least somewhat regularly.  For me it would be a lot more epic if the BBEG at least survived long enough to put a little fear into the party before the death blow.

----------


## Witty Username

Yeah, the enemy that lives the nova damage, even briefly, is an actually terifying moment.

In our that game with a paladin we actually had one of those, 2 swings, two crits, two 4th level smites, and the damm thing lived (slight homebrew, some dragon something with doubled HP), it only got 1 turn in but it was a tense 2 rounds of combat.

----------


## nickl_2000

> What did this Sorcadin build and the items involved look like?





> You said 16th level? What is your mix of sorcerer and paladin?


Glory paladin 6, Draconic sorcerer 10.

This PC is built as a tank, coming in at a whooping 23 base AC, and in general that he been good role and he is good at it.  This paladin is always the first one in and the last one out.

Using Full plate, +1 shield, cloak of protection, and a necklace of prayer beads.  Most importantly he is wielding Serithtial.  This is an artifact level intelligent weapon that is +3 and grants significant bonus damage again those working for the BBEG and additional against fiends.  This thing we were fighting was both, giving an extra 4d8 damage per hit in this encounter.  This sword is the McGuffin, the weapon we spent 2 campaign chapters learning about and seeking.

So that helped massively to add to the damage, no question there.





> Honestly, I don't think the responses were as negative as they could have been.  On what appears to have been planned to be a significant encounter for this group, 2 characters won initiative, if I'm interpreting correctly, and were able to eliminate the threat completely in round 1 before the rest of the group could do anything.
> I suppose if this was a 'one off' it could be considered an epic moment, but I'm unsure that this can't be repeated at least somewhat regularly.  For me it would be a lot more epic if the BBEG at least survived long enough to put a little fear into the party before the death blow.


not quite.  We had the big one, who the paladin novaed.  There were also other smaller threats that did some damage before the entire encounter was over.  The horror did get 1 turn, which is used to drop a mass suggestion on the party.  It landed on the paladin only, but the suggestion was one the paladin was perfectly happy to oblige.





Overall what made this awesome is that it isn't the norm.  It isn't what is usually done and isn't what usually happened.  The stars aligned and everything went right to have a super fun game moment.

----------


## KorvinStarmast

> With that amount of resources spent I'd hope it would work.


 +1. And sometimes, it doesn't.  



> I do want to point out that we are retroactively analyzing a situation where everything did work out right.  ---snip---
> All that is to point out my general point -- when nova builds/strategies work, they really work; when they don't, they often really don't.


 Indeed. I part company with you somewhat, though, in that I do appreciate the multiclassing paladin/sorc concept doing neato things at the cost of not getting the higher level paladin abilities like Cleansing Touch or immunity to fear, etc.  I play my paladin straight up, not multiclass, and he's doing fine.  Has an occasional nova near or over 100 HP if a crit happens now that improved divine smite is a thing and he's got a magic weapon 



> I don't know - sounds like this table had an epic moment where everything went in their favor so a PC got to shine for a moment and the responses have mostly been negative.  Why?


 I am not sure, remarks like "this is OP" a case of someone not paying attention to the OP.  They did mention the cool weapon and the set up, but I guess some days we get up on the wrong side of the bed and are all grumpy. I do that now and again myself.

----------


## Marcloure

> I don't want to take anything away from this, as OP clearly is having fun and is recognizing the resource expense behind this. I do want to point out that we are retroactively analyzing a situation where everything did work out right. Haste went off before the paladin's turn; the BBEG was non-flying within a (haste-boosted) movement distance of the paladin; they failed their save (which, given the sorcadin is splitting ASIs or magic items between Cha and Str, is not certain); the paladin hit each time (even with advantage from them being held, is not a sure thing); and the sorcadin had the slots (they felt they could devote to the situation) left. 
> 
> All that is to point out my general point -- when nova builds/strategies work, they really work; when they don't, they often really don't. Not necessarily 'I tried to nova, it failed, and now my character is dead,' but more along the lines of 'I built this guy around nova-ing, but a prime candidate scenario comes up every third adventure, it works half the time, and in the meantime the straight-up fighter dominates every fight and the full-casters are 2-3 spell levels ahead in cool tricks.'
> 
> So yes, nova characters rock when everything lines up. It should, given what they sacrifice to be optimized to do so. My only real griefs with it is never before 5e did the venn diagram of my conception of 'paladin' significantly overlap with 'resource-nova mechanisms' and that I rather dislike weird confluence of rules effects like paladin-smites double-advancing by taking non-paladin class levels.


My good person, you don't need all of that to nova as a Sorcadin. The amount of extra slots you gain to spend on Divine Smite is enough to be one of the best combos, the resthaste, greater inv., hold person, fireball, cone of cold is just bonus. I ran a game for a Sorcadin once, he could consistently deal 80100 damage per turn and enough times per day using Greater Inv + GWM + level 2 or 3 divine smite. It's not like Sorcadins don't have 3 or 4 slots of each spell level.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> My good person, you don't need all of that to nova as a Sorcadin. The amount of extra slots you gain to spend on Divine Smite is enough to be one of the best combos, the resthaste, greater inv., hold person, fireball, cone of cold is just bonus.


Of course not, my good fellow, they are simply the ones the OP included in their example.




> Indeed. I part company with you somewhat, though, in that I do appreciate the multiclassing paladin/sorc concept doing neato things at the cost of not getting the higher level paladin abilities like Cleansing Touch or immunity to fear, etc.  I play my paladin straight up, not multiclass, and he's doing fine.  Has an occasional nova near or over 100 HP if a crit happens now that improved divine smite is a thing and he's got a magic weapon


I don't think I said anything indicating that I don't like the multiclassing paladin/sorc concept doing neato things at the cost of not getting the higher level paladin abilities like Cleansing Touch or immunity to fear, etc. What was it that I said that you took to mean that?

----------


## Aimeryan

> My good person, you don't need all of that to nova as a Sorcadin. The amount of extra slots you gain to spend on Divine Smite is enough to be one of the best combos, the resthaste, greater inv., hold person, fireball, cone of cold is just bonus. I ran a game for a Sorcadin once, he could consistently deal 80100 damage per turn and enough times per day using Greater Inv + GWM + level 2 or 3 divine smite. It's not like Sorcadins don't have 3 or 4 slots of each spell level.


It is bit of a misconception that Sorcadin get many more slots to fuel Smite with. Well, technically, a Pal 2 Sorc X WILL have a fair few more slots - but they are missing out on the extra attack and aura. The more typical Pal 6/7 Sorc X only has a couple more slots, since Smites cap out scaling at level 4 slot (and it scales poorly even then). Treatmonk did an analysis on this: https://youtu.be/2Fpa0sul5Ec?t=98 

One thing that isn't mentioned is that Font of Magic can technically convert higher slots into multiple lower slots (thus effectively giving you more Smites), however, there are losses in the conversion. Smite is actually a pretty poor use of a spell slot compared to alternative options; which is why even Paladins spellcasting - which is pretty dire - trumps using all the spell slots on smites. When you have Sorcerer spell options in the mix this becomes even more apparent. Here is an article on the nature of Smite and how the damage isn't all it seems: https://nystulsmagicwebsite.wordpres...ded-dont-work/

Haste is also a pretty poor spell. Fundamentally, the benefits are weak and the concentration loss effect can be catastophic. An article by Tabletopbuilds looks at the spell in detail here: https://tabletopbuilds.com/overrated-spells-haste/

Greater Invisibility's benefits in combat can be replicated via the Blind Fighting style (if going for damage on a Paladin there isn't a better fighting style available) and any form of obscurement effect (Fog, Darkness, etc.) - which can be accomplished easily by other party members. Since a lot of these are of much lower level resource cost and can benefit multiple party members this leaves a lot to be desired with Greater Invisibility. Advantage (for melee) is also easily achieved by a party member shoving an opponent prone. Despite being a team game it is often forgotten that there _are_ other party members around, and sometimes the most _advantageous_ option for them is to help multiple party members rather than just themselves.

Sorcerer is a great multiclass for Paladin (along with a 2 level dip in Warlock for Agonising Repelling Blast and short rest slots), but for focusing on more Smiting it is pretty suboptimal. Don't misunderstand me, 5e sets a really low bar for being viable - even Monks make it - so it works just fine. Its just suboptimal. Oh, and it makes big numbers every now and again when everything aligns.

----------


## Salmon343

I disagree on this assessment of Sorcadins - think they can be great smite machines when used carefully.


> It is bit of a misconception that Sorcadin get many more slots to fuel Smite with. Well, technically, a Pal 2 Sorc X WILL have a fair few more slots - but they are missing out on the extra attack and aura. The more typical Pal 6/7 Sorc X only has a couple more slots, since Smites cap out scaling at level 4 slot (and it scales poorly even then). Treatmonk did an analysis on this: https://youtu.be/2Fpa0sul5Ec?t=98


I think the bonus slots are still relevant - until you get to level 17, a Sorcadin is still going to have more level 1-4 slots as a level appropriate Paladin.



> One thing that isn't mentioned is that Font of Magic can technically convert higher slots into multiple lower slots (thus effectively giving you more Smites), however, there are losses in the conversion. Smite is actually a pretty poor use of a spell slot compared to alternative options; which is why even Paladins spellcasting - which is pretty dire - trumps using all the spell slots on smites. When you have Sorcerer spell options in the mix this becomes even more apparent. Here is an article on the nature of Smite and how the damage isn't all it seems: https://nystulsmagicwebsite.wordpres...ded-dont-work/


I think a more deeper analysis than that article would be needed to more conclusively state that they aren't effective. It doesn't look at the bonus damage smites to to fiends and undead - a key feature, and the fact that a combination of spells and smites means that a greater proportion would typically be used on crits - as spiked bonus damage, rather than a constant damage increase. It can be used in this sense for burst damage on particular creatures, which can have a greater impact than constantly high DPR when you want to remove particularly dangerous creatures on the board. A less frequent precision tool can be just as handy as constant access to a hammer.

Looking at the crit argument is why a Sorcadin is so strong (even a Paladin 2 Sorcerer X). With access to spells like Haste, Hold Monster, Greater Invisibility, and the ability to quicken them, they have the ability to quickly increase their hit chance, crit chance, and number of attacks; thus increasing that nova potential. It uses a ton of resources, but it's that precision scalpel - you remove the dangerous enemies before they can wreck your party.




> Haste is also a pretty poor spell. Fundamentally, the benefits are weak and the concentration loss effect can be catastophic. An article by Tabletopbuilds looks at the spell in detail here: https://tabletopbuilds.com/overrated-spells-haste/


 This article underestimates the power of all of these features in tandem. You're getting an extra attack (or dash, or disengage, or hide, or object interaction...), greatly increased speed, and AC and Dex saves bonus. It can help both skirmishers and tanks, and is especially good on classes with access to bonus damage. Like Improved Divine Smite Paladins, Hex Warlocks, Blessed Characters - because it can be stacked if someone else casts Bless. The spells occupy different niches and usually different spell lists - they don't need to compete when they work well together.




> Greater Invisibility's benefits in combat can be replicated via the Blind Fighting style (if going for damage on a Paladin there isn't a better fighting style available) and any form of obscurement effect (Fog, Darkness, etc.) - which can be accomplished easily by other party members. Since a lot of these are of much lower level resource cost and can benefit multiple party members this leaves a lot to be desired with Greater Invisibility. Advantage (for melee) is also easily achieved by a party member shoving an opponent prone. Despite being a team game it is often forgotten that there _are_ other party members around, and sometimes the most _advantageous_ option for them is to help multiple party members rather than just themselves.


 Fog and Darkness tactics hinder the party a lot - and often their enemies aren't at the same disadvantage. It especially hinders line of sight for spellcasting. While invisibility tactics also don't work on every enemy, they can be a lot less restrictive than everyone needing to work around vision strats.

I also think that reliability isn't looked at often. Shoving prone is a pretty hand tool, but doesn't always work. Invisibility and Darkness strats (when carefully used) just work (assuming used on enemies without the ability to see through those tricks. Whereas dice rolls almost always have inherent unreliability). That kind of reliability is pretty good when seek & destroying with a nova.



> Sorcerer is a great multiclass for Paladin (along with a 2 level dip in Warlock for Agonising Repelling Blast and short rest slots), but for focusing on more Smiting it is pretty suboptimal. Don't misunderstand me, 5e sets a really low bar for being viable - even Monks make it - so it works just fine. Its just suboptimal. Oh, and it makes big numbers every now and again when everything aligns.


 I think they're great for extra smiting - that's just not all you do. You're trading improved divine smite and/or varying degrees of auras for some more smite slots and more powerful spells, allowing you to improve burst damage potential and thus maximise that aspect of a Paladin's kit. I agree on not just smiting on all attacks - you burn slots fast - but you dish out well timed and well placed novas to help control the flow of battle for your side.

I played a Paladin 2 / Sorcerer X Sorcadin, and found that it performed pretty well. I quickly learned not to smite on everything, and how to read the party and shape of the day to moderate resource expenditure. This was in a party with regular Paladins also, and I'd say that we all fit our niches well. One regular Paladin was a constant damage machine (with greater average damage than me), and the other focused on support. Sorcadin performed best working with the party - sorcerer side gave me strong AOEs for dealing with groups of mooks, and Twinned Spell meant that I shared the damaging buffs with the damage focused paladin. Greater Invisibility and Haste twinned well. With regular smites, spell smites, the ability to go invisible and quicken Green-Flame Blade (did not take Hold Monster, did not suit the character), could nova hard when I wanted to, helping the party operate smoothly.

----------


## Hael

Smite is usually a suboptimal choice (slots are mostly used on efficient spells like spirit guardians/summons or web, and then the rest of the slots on 1st lvl reactions which can be converted with font).  But when you need it, its incredibly strong.

The ability to lower the TTK of a BBEG by one round is nothing to sneeze at.  More generally, Sorcadins can twin/quicken a very large amount of 1 round damage so they really are amongst the premiere nova users in the game (along with being the best tanks).

Resource management can become a problem for the class in grindy days, but with proper play its pretty much unmatched.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Smite is usually a suboptimal choice (slots are mostly used on efficient spells like spirit guardians/summons or web, and then the rest of the slots on 1st lvl reactions which can be converted with font).  But when you need it, its incredibly strong.


Smite also has some impressive benefits in terms of action economy and only-effective-usage/expenditure. You get to 'cast' the spell slots (possibly multiple times) at the same time as an attack action, and get to choose to do so after you've seen your to-hit roll.

----------


## Frogreaver

Assuming the weapon being used is a greatsword then 3 attacks with 2d6+mod damage and 2 level 4 smites and a level 3 smite comes out to 183 average damage dealt.  The magic weapon was then responsible for the rest - about half of the damage.  Thus, I'd say the sword added about +8d6 damage before factoring in crits?

An EK 6+Sorcerer 11 (1 level higher than your character) equipped with a similar sword and hasted while using action surge probably could have done over ~370 damage in a single round while doing the same quicken Level 7 slot Hold Person.

----------


## Slipjig

More than that, actually: OP said up-thread that the McGuffin sword was adding 4d8+3 per hit.  So while I'm sure this was a Crowning Moment of Awesome at this particular table, we should be careful about extrapolating the results to Sorcadins in general.

----------


## Salmon343

> Assuming the weapon being used is a greatsword then 3 attacks with 2d6+mod damage and 2 level 4 smites and a level 3 smite comes out to 183 average damage dealt.  The magic weapon was then responsible for the rest - about half of the damage.  Thus, I'd say the sword added about +8d6 damage before factoring in crits?
> 
> An EK 6+Sorcerer 11 (1 level higher than your character) equipped with a similar sword and hasted while using action surge probably could have done over ~370 damage in a single round while doing the same quicken Level 7 slot Hold Person.





> More than that, actually: OP said up-thread that the McGuffin sword was adding 4d8+3 per hit.  So while I'm sure this was a Crowning Moment of Awesome at this particular table, we should be careful about extrapolating the results to Sorcadins in general.


Yep, souped up weaponry will benefit from tons of attacks more, so action surging can do more damage, depending on how much dice is being added per hit. Action Surge is strictly once per short rest (for such a gish), so ironically the Sorcadin has greater nova power over multiple turns, despite blowing through a ton more resources to do so.

They both exist as great ways to nova. They've got different secondary bonuses (A Paladin 6 Sorcerer X would have the benefit of Aura of Protection for example, while an Action Surger is a lot more consistent across a working day) and nova in different ways, so can exist in the same space.

----------


## Witty Username

> Yep, souped up weaponry will benefit from tons of attacks more


I think the funniest example of that I've seen was a high level game, we found a belt of storm giant strength. You who gets some really nice benefits from a plus 9 strength bonus? The... monk.

He had a 20 dex so it was only +4ish to attack and damage, but that adds up fast with four attacks a round.

----------


## Person_Man

Just pray that the DM doesnt play a lot of JRPG - otherwise they might start giving their BBEG multiple forms - each of which are revealed when being killed - specifically to nerf this kind of nova.

----------


## Salmon343

> I think the funniest example of that I've seen was a high level game, we found a belt of storm giant strength. You who gets some really nice benefits from a plus 9 strength bonus? The... monk.
> 
> He had a 20 dex so it was only +4ish to attack and damage, but that adds up fast with four attacks a round.


Yeah, it's a pity there're so few magic items out there for monks...something simple like Flametongue Knuckledusters would work wonders, and might even be cooler than the original. 

29 str in tandem with 20 dex is the ultimate monk fantasy too. Strong as a truck, slippery as a bicycle.




> Just pray that the DM doesnt play a lot of JRPG - otherwise they might start giving their BBEG multiple forms - each of which are revealed when being killed - specifically to nerf this kind of nova.


Guilty as charged...

It's also a useful way for getting a full working day out of a single boss fight. Multiple forms, with some kind of mechanic to permit short resting in between them. (My favourite is potions as a delivery method, limited either by supply or number of times per day it'll work on you).

That could be considered to balance out the excitement of a nova and the disappointment of an incredibly short fight. PC still gets to blow through one form, and the other forms will need novas from other PCs, or the slow burners are allowed to shine across the whole battle.

----------


## Marcloure

> Haste is also a pretty poor spell. Fundamentally, the benefits are weak and the concentration loss effect can be catastophic. An article by Tabletopbuilds looks at the spell in detail here: https://tabletopbuilds.com/overrated-spells-haste/


This has to be one of the dumbest takes I have ever read, or this person plays some very static battles. Saying that +2 to AC won't change the tide of battle misses the point that saving you some 20 HP this fight will make a huge difference at the end of the day. Also, the worst part: "if youre casting haste to 'tank' and deal damage in melee, the mobility aspect is largely irrelevant", *what*??? They are saying that engaging an enemy 1 turn earlier and dishing your damage from turn 1 is not worth it? Again, this person must play fights only in 6x6 rooms to say that not having to waste a turn dashing is not worth the spell.

----------


## MrStabby

> This has to be one of the dumbest takes I have ever read, or this person plays some very static battles. Saying that +2 to AC won't change the tide of battle misses the point that saving you some 20 HP this fight will make a huge difference at the end of the day. Also, the worst part: "if youre casting haste to 'tank' and deal damage in melee, the mobility aspect is largely irrelevant", *what*??? They are saying that engaging an enemy 1 turn earlier and dishing your damage from turn 1 is not worth it? Again, this person must play fights only in 6x6 rooms to say that not having to waste a turn dashing is not worth the spell.


I think Haste is fine... its a good spell but also a bit overrated.

I began by writing this saying that it shines in easy campaigns but is a lot weaker when things get tough - which reading back sounded condescending, and not really quite my meaning.  It might be better to say its better in asier combats (which can be part of very hard campaigns).

I think I am usually a bit underenthusiastic about buff spells.  They are generally great value if and only if the buffer stays active, the buffed party member stays active and the enemy stays engaged in a fight.  If on the other hand, the DM throws a hypnotic pattern out and you need multiple specific people to pass to get value out of the spell then it's a bit vulnerable.

Fireball on the other hand doesn't get undone with a failed concentration save or wisdom save or a party member being stuck in difficult terrain.

If DMs have their enemies retreat after buffing or otherwise delay the party or generally play smart then buffs are less valuable.

I see Haste as being similar, but slightly different.  Different because it's just so powerful - so many good bonuses on one spell just means that the balance is tipped a bit towards.it being good.  On the other hand, the downside is obviously the cost if the spell is broken.

----------


## Aimeryan

> This has to be one of the dumbest takes I have ever read, or this person plays some very static battles. Saying that +2 to AC won't change the tide of battle misses the point that saving you some 20 HP this fight will make a huge difference at the end of the day. Also, the worst part: "if youre casting haste to 'tank' and deal damage in melee, the mobility aspect is largely irrelevant", *what*??? They are saying that engaging an enemy 1 turn earlier and dishing your damage from turn 1 is not worth it? Again, this person must play fights only in 6x6 rooms to say that not having to waste a turn dashing is not worth the spell.


The issue is not in what it provides, since anything positive is positive (lets ignore that it actually also provides a negative); its the opportunity cost. The spell requires spell slots that could be used on better spells. The spell requires an action from the caster which could be used on better spells. The spell requires concentration... which could be used on better spells. Even the spell known could be an opportunity cost.

As mentioned by the article, if the enemy is far away... good? Keep it that way. Very few enemies have great ranged options and their melee options are almost always better. Control is preferable to taking a beating, and staying at ranged is one of the best ways of doing that. If the option comes down to Haste so one of your party members can get in faster and start taking a beating faster or Web to take the enemy practically out of the fight, it doesn't put Haste in a great light. Then you have the problem that once you do get in, the AC is better provided by other spells (cheaper and without the negative). If you are intending to get in and not take any damage then you want to put out more damage and this is better provided by other spells (cheaper and without the negative).

The only case I consider Haste particular good is when a Rogue can Ready another Sneak Attack of it - and there are still other ways for the Rogue to do this that might be less costly.

----------


## Marcloure

> The issue is not in what it provides, since anything positive is positive (lets ignore that it actually also provides a negative); its the opportunity cost. The spell requires spell slots that could be used on better spells. The spell requires an action from the caster which could be used on better spells. The spell requires concentration... which could be used on better spells. Even the spell known could be an opportunity cost.


This is beyond the point of this post, so I'll probably not respond further then this to not derail it completely, but I lack to see a spell that has a better use of concentration and action and slot then _haste_ for what it does. Haste is the best buffing spell up to 3rd level, it is 3 spells together in a single action and concentration, and it is more reliable then hold person. Spells like web can be indeed be more powerful provided you can affect multiple enemies without hitting your allies, but when you can't do that, haste is one of the best uses of concentration.




> Then you have the problem that once you do get in, the AC is better provided by other spells (cheaper and without the negative). If you are intending to get in and not take any damage then you want to put out more damage and this is better provided by other spells (cheaper and without the negative).


Can you give an example? I fail to see an spell that gives more protection and damage boost than _haste_ for melee characters; the other options give one or the other and just as good as haste does. And this idea that you will be able to just stand in a fight is weird to me, there seem to be a lack of battle composition on the other side. In my experience, each melee PC has to dash at least once in every fight in a way that standing there is just not an option, so saving this action alone is very good. Again, it's not the spell for every battle, and no spell should be the answer to allsome times AOE is just the right answer. But if you need to improve your fighter or barbarian damage with their GWM feat against a couple of powerful enemy, haste is probably the best spell up to 3rd level for that.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> As mentioned by the article, if the enemy is far away... good? Keep it that way. Very few enemies have great ranged options and their melee options are almost always better. Control is preferable to taking a beating, and staying at ranged is one of the best ways of doing that. If the option comes down to Haste so one of your party members can get in faster and start taking a beating faster or Web to take the enemy practically out of the fight, it doesn't put Haste in a great light. Then you have the problem that once you do get in, the AC is better provided by other spells (cheaper and without the negative). If you are intending to get in and not take any damage then you want to put out more damage and this is better provided by other spells (cheaper and without the negative).


I'm sure there are plenty of optimization guides that would put 'build a character which is a melee power-house' to be the first step in failure, but I don't see that as particularly practical, given player preferences. People like playing front-line beat-stick-wielders. In that predicated reality, getting them into (and keeping them in) position to use said beat-stick (especially with higher AC and potentially an extra attack) every round is going to be a tactically solid choice.

----------


## Aimeryan

> I'm sure there are plenty of optimization guides that would put 'build a character which is a melee power-house' to be the first step in failure, but I don't see that as particularly practical, given player preferences. People like playing front-line beat-stick-wielders. In that predicated reality, getting them into (and keeping them in) position to use said beat-stick (especially with higher AC and potentially an extra attack) every round is going to be a tactically solid choice.


Sure, but it rarely makes good use of the caster's Concentration, Action, and spell slot to do that. The primarily melee character can still used a ranged weapon until they close, while the caster has now essentially done nothing at some cost and will remain not doing their most effective shtick since they can't afford to drop Concentration on such a punishing spell. In fact, the caster may have to actually just go hide because of how dire that is, so not even casting non-Concentration spells. All to accomplish what is essentially putting a party member in danger, faster.

If we are evalutating the spell as _coooool_, then great; I am sure the melee dude will love it. If we are evaluating the spell from an opportunity cost standpoint, it doesn't hold up.

Edit: This is also ignoring the better mobility options like Phantom/Find Steed. Or just a Warhorse. These is no or little cost with these (in any respect - spell slot, concentration, action) and provide superior mobility. Alternatively, there is also the Fly spell for a different kind of mobility.

----------


## Corran

> The only case I consider Haste particular good is when a Rogue can Ready another Sneak Attack of it - and there are still other ways for the Rogue to do this that might be less costly.


Not only when they can ready a sneak attack. The +2 defense does not go to waste in scenarios where you want to get focused but you have already planned for defenses (improved base AC and ideally disadvantage). Particularly when the main drive is to get focused in melee, so that your allies can spam some damage AoE's which you will counter with evasion and the advantage on dex saves that haste also provides. Relatively recently we had an encounter where I had to tank (well, I didn't really have to, but it was probably the best plan A; certainly the most entertaining due to circumstances, ie there was an opportunity for a very good entrance to combat) for both the missing barbarian and fighter, against a group of seasoned gladiators (8 of them IIRC), and the plan was for the wizard (being an evoker wouldn't help as I would count on obscurement) and light cleric to dish out as much damage as they could before I eventually resorted to hit and run, at which point it would become a mess. 2-3 rounds and 5-6 fireballs and one fllame strike (why?) after, as well as some good rolls from me (including a crit reaction sneak attack), and we were picking up the pieces of what was supposed to be a decent encounter for the whole group (though with both the barbarian and the fighter we would probably not have surprise, so that's that). Anyway, I am pretty sure that haste did perform somewhat above average during that fight (as there 2 or 3 instances I didn't get hit by a difference of 2 AC - I remember cause I was forgetting to calculate its effect before the wizard reminding me, as well as another 2 or 3 instances where I succeeded with my poor +4 dex save against the DC of a fireball). But I still think it was the better choice than the cnventional throw a mass CC AoE at the start of the fight. Cause haste did allow me to prolong the caster's safety, which also increased the numbers on the AoE damage we could dish out, as well as it did provide me with a good speed with which to pull away once my hp did start to drop low (at which point the wizard could change to a CC AoE). Ah, good times.

Haste is also nice on vengeance paly's, especially once they get access to a(n) (improved) mount. Makes them better at chasing after elusive/careful glass cannons (eg ones with access to teleports).

----------


## Witty Username

> I'm sure there are plenty of optimization guides that would put 'build a character which is a melee power-house' to be the first step in failure, but I don't see that as particularly practical, given player preferences. People like playing front-line beat-stick-wielders. In that predicated reality, getting them into (and keeping them in) position to use said beat-stick (especially with higher AC and potentially an extra attack) every round is going to be a tactically solid choice.


People claim that melee is underpowered, until they get grappled by a Barbarian and yeeted off a castle wall.
Melee builds tend to have more flexibility due to the shove and Grapple rules.

Haste, I think is overrated but good, rogue gets good use out of it (even without the ready trick, since extra attacks dramatically increase the reliability of sneak attack). Paladins get an extra smite opportunity. I think bless is better personally outside of that.

----------

