# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 >  Help with Elder Evil Signs

## BioCharge

Hey all, I can use some help with y'all's creative juices.

My current campaign is an Elder Evil campaign, based around the Mind Flayers of Thoon from MMV. If you already guessed it, Thoon is going to be said Elder Evil. While I have his statblock all written outx I'm having trouble coming up with Signs and none of them in the book really fit, so I turn to you guys.

In my campaign, Thoon is a... prototype, for lack of a better word, physics engine. Instead of things happening neccessary by consequential action, the original idea was that Thoon would arbitrate what would happen, i.e. an object would fall not because of gravity, but because Thoon would "push" it downwards. I hope that makes vague sense.

My current ideas is that as Thoon gains more power, reality gets more arbitrary, as natural "laws" become more suggestions. I was thinking that as it gets stronger, people can treat objects (of varying hardness based on Sign Strength) as shapesand, warping it as they will, up to the point they can even change states or just straight up materials. But I was hoping for something more Elder Evil-ly.

Any help you guys could provide would be really handy. Also, if its relevant, the setting is Eberron.

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## RandomPeasant

It would dovetail a bit with Eberron's planar zones, but you could have the sign impose planar traits in some way. Those do a pretty good job of modeling "different physics".

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## Inevitability

Firstly, if you want more elder evil inspiration, the Olethrofex has some interesting custom signs hidden away (go to Exalted Mythos and then to Seal-Shattering End-of-Days Invocation).

Anyway, I decided to go with something focused on the gravity aspect, as it feels more 'alien' than energy damage or basic kinetic energy.

*A Cruel Mistress:*
_Faint:_ Gravity intensifies subtly. When a creature takes falling damage, the damage taken is 1d8 per 10 feet fallen, instead of 1d6.

_Moderate:_ Magic that would affect or negate gravity, like Feather Fall, Levitate, Reverse Gravity and so on, ceases to work unless its caster succeeds on a Spellcraft check with a DC of 10 + the spell's level. Corporeal creatures have their flying speed halved, and attack rolls with ranged weapons take a -2 penalty.

In a number of places, mostly large metropolises, zones with notably increased gravity appear. In these areas, the Heavy Gravity trait applies. Thus, Balance, Climb, Jump, Ride, Swim, and Tumble checks incur a -2 circumstance penalty, as do all attack rolls. All item weights are effectively doubled, which might affect a characters speed. Weapon ranges are halved. A characters Strength and Dexterity scores are not affected. Characters who fall on a heavy gravity plane take 1d10 points of damage for each 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d10 points of damage. The locales remain inhabited: it's tough for those few who fell to their deaths from first-floor windows, but what's the alternative: abandon entire districts?

*Strong:* The entire material plane gains the Heavy Gravity trait, and the DC of the spellcraft check increases to 20 + the spell's level. Earthquakes and tidal waves become common, and corporeal creatures must succeed on a DC 15 fortitude saving throw at the end of every turn spent airborne or begin falling (if the fall lasts longer than 1 round, new saving throws allow one to regain control).

The gravity spikes increase further in power. All objects and creatures in those zones take 1d10 points of damage per round of exposure unless they succeed on a DC 10 fortitude saving throw. The citizens of the districts are crushed or flee, sparking major political crises, and any but the sturdiest buildings collapse not long after, leaving only piles of dust and rubble.

All this is merely a prelude. Astronomers and diviners discover a number of asteroids, each large enough to level a city. Their trajectories are clearly unnatural, the product of manipulated gravitational forces, and in a mere 3d6 days they will jointly descend on the gravity spikes. The force of the impact, enhanced by the unnatural gravity, will be enough to annihilate the cities and large swatches of the surrounding lands, in addition to sending burning debris flying across the world that shall trigger global firestorms.

*Overwhelming:* As the chaos of the impacts slowly dies down, and a semblance of order is restored to the devastated realms, a few dare hope that this was the last, that surely everything was working up to this point, and now that it is over they can at last rebuild (or perhaps the PCs were successful in deflecting the impacts, and celebrate thinking the same). The zones of abnormal gravity disappear, having served their purpose, a thing quickly noticed and celebrated.

Then, the overwhelming sign manifests.

Gravity increases one final time, doubling the effects of the planewide Heavy Gravity trait. All spells that manipulate gravity fail to work entirely. Corporeal creatures can no longer fly. Creatures not in a buoyant environment, like partially or wholly submerged in water, must make a DC 15 fortitude saving throw per hour or take 2d10 points of damage. Earthquakes are now a daily occurence, and volcanoes across the globe erupt, mingling with the impact debris to create an ashy haze.

Life might remain possible, for a few, but it's a moot point. The planet begins to fold in on itself, collapsing under its own weight. In time, new asteroids will strike the planet, heralding the arrival of the moon, which has begun a slow inward spin.

At the planet's core, where gravity is now 'merely' earth-normal, small pockets of air are psionically maintained by the mind flayers, who guide the conversion of earth's silicon mass into a hyperdense substrate for Thoon to inhabit. The impact of the moon will coincide with the completion of their work, and will offer the final spark needed to ignite the interface and empower their master to extend his own will over physics.

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## BioCharge

> It would dovetail a bit with Eberron's planar zones, but you could have the sign impose planar traits in some way. Those do a pretty good job of modeling "different physics".


I was thinking of something along those lines. Maybe use the random planar breaching rules from Planar Handbook as things start really getting out of hand, like Strong-sign level.




> Snip


First off, while the gravity bit was just an example, the idea you had is something I'll have to save for a future campaign. An Elder Evil causing a world to implode on itself sounds absolutely epic.

This is one of those weird cases where I don't know quite what I'm looking for, but would know when I see it. Which is rare, usually I know what I need and can do it myself, so I'm sorry if my desires are too vague.

If it's also any help, the Quintessence used in MMV as the Mind Flayers' objective is essentially "raw potential." It can, with influence, effectively become anything or in large enough amounts be used to cause a anything. The Quintessence of the outer planes is essentially "influenced" Quintessence rather than the "pure" kind the Mindflayers are harvesting. The idea is they'd gather up enough to allow Thoon to enter reality and then merge back as the "engine" of reality. Think sorta how Pandorym's mind is separate from its body, but just the entire material plane is Thoon's "body."

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## Telonius

So we're looking at an Elder Evil whose shtick is affecting physics. You've already got gravity. But time, distance, and speed could also be affected. Portions of the material plane could become faster or slower time progressing. Whole areas could be arbitrarily Hasted or Slowed. Spell durations could be Extended or Halved with no change in spell level. Spell range could be affected; so could archery range increments and thrown weapons. Time might even "freeze" in certain instances; evocation spells might have a chance of "sticking" (instantaneous spells effect the same target squares two rounds in a row). Growing seasons could speed up or slow down. 

Inertia could get weird. An arrow that misses might just keep going. Getting up from prone could be harder. Weight and carrying capacity could be all over the place. Max load might be doubled (or halved, or limitless).

Temperature could get all kinds of wacky. Water's boiling or freezing point could shift. It could manifest itself in some innocuous ways at first (snow when it's nice out) but it would quickly get very dangerous to most life.

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## BioCharge

> So we're looking at an Elder Evil whose shtick is affecting physics. You've already got gravity. But time, distance, and speed could also be affected. Portions of the material plane could become faster or slower time progressing. Whole areas could be arbitrarily Hasted or Slowed. Spell durations could be Extended or Halved with no change in spell level. Spell range could be affected; so could archery range increments and thrown weapons. Time might even "freeze" in certain instances; evocation spells might have a chance of "sticking" (instantaneous spells effect the same target squares two rounds in a row). Growing seasons could speed up or slow down. 
> 
> Inertia could get weird. An arrow that misses might just keep going. Getting up from prone could be harder. Weight and carrying capacity could be all over the place. Max load might be doubled (or halved, or limitless).
> 
> Temperature could get all kinds of wacky. Water's boiling or freezing point could shift. It could manifest itself in some innocuous ways at first (snow when it's nice out) but it would quickly get very dangerous to most life.


This is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Earlier drafts of the campaign had it that spell durstions, travel time, and even just the length of day would randomly increase or decrease by a handful of "units" (i.e. rounds for round based spells, hours for days, miles for distance, etc.) but I wasn't sure how to do it without it being cumbersome. Though, typing it out with the realization that it affecting base level physics is going to be unweildy anywys, like pulling the bottom brick of a Jenga tower. Hmm...

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## BioCharge

A thought just occured to me and I wantes some opinions. I think the scale of such changes might be too much to codify into something entirely impartial. I had maybe this idea:
*Sign: Arbitrary Reality*: As the laws of reality begin to unravel, creatures are able to affect the world more based on their whims. Whenever a player characyer rolls a natural 20, they gain a Reality Die. They may spend this reality die to either grant themselves a bonus or inflict a penalty on an enemy on any D20 rolls. If a player rolls a Natural 1, the DM gets one die to use instead. Narratively, thia can be any given effect and can be described as nearly anything. All Reality Dice expire at the end of a session.
*Least Sign*: The Reality Die is a d4.
*Lesser Sign*: The Reality Die is a d6.
*Greater Sign*: The Reality Die is a d8.
*Overwhelming Sign*: The Reality Die is a d10.

This may be a *very* abstracted way of modeling the effects, but it seems simple and flexible in its mechanics. Thoughts?

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## Beni-Kujaku

> A thought just occured to me and I wantes some opinions. I think the scale of such changes might be too much to codify into something entirely impartial. I had maybe this idea:
> *Sign: Arbitrary Reality*: As the laws of reality begin to unravel, creatures are able to affect the world more based on their whims. Whenever a player characyer rolls a natural 20, they gain a Reality Die. They may spend this reality die to either grant themselves a bonus or inflict a penalty on an enemy on any D20 rolls. If a player rolls a Natural 1, the DM gets one die to use instead. Narratively, thia can be any given effect and can be described as nearly anything. All Reality Dice expire at the end of a session.
> *Least Sign*: The Reality Die is a d4.
> *Lesser Sign*: The Reality Die is a d6.
> *Greater Sign*: The Reality Die is a d8.
> *Overwhelming Sign*: The Reality Die is a d10.
> 
> This may be a *very* abstracted way of modeling the effects, but it seems simple and flexible in its mechanics. Thoughts?


I think it should be clearer that the world is ending. Here, having a reality die could be good for least and lesser sign, but it's almost as much good as it is bad. There isn't a sense of urgency as having a d10 is not that much more threatening than a d4. There should be more than just number scaling between each level. Also, it doesn't affect everybody's everyday life. Only adventurers would feel that, and that's not what Elder Evil signs are for. They're supposed to be of little matter for the adventurers themselves (except greater and overwhelming), but be deadly for most of the population.

If you want to keep the idea of dice rolls being affected, then you could do something like:

*Least*: Reality Die is a d4. The DM's reality dice are applied to the very next roll by the character (having the DM choose when to use them is pretty weird, all things considered, but not too much of a problem if you think it's better)
*Lesser*: Reality becomes more uncertain, and what was originally instinct now requires focus. Grabbing a knife from a cupboard can now risk letting it fall. Writing is an almost impossible task, as the paper seems to shift underneath the pen. It is now impossible to take 10 or take 20 on any skill check. Some tasks requiring minor precision now require DC 0 skill checks (a low roll affected by reality dice can make even the simplest task a failure). Reality Die is a d6. 
*Greater*: People start to stumble in the street as their steps are not synchronized with each other, trying to swim in a pool is a sure way to drown, cooking anything requires extreme focus as the laws of mechanics and thermodynamics fluctuate constantly. Birds cannot fly straight, predators cannot effectively attack their prey and most of them starve. "Accidents" take the lives of thousands. Any task requiring minor precision now requires a DC 5 skill check to avoid failing catastrophically (the task fails, and roll on a fumble chart if the task is failed by 5 points or more), and even moving at more than half a character's base speed requires a DC 0 Balance check to avoid falling prone, dealing 1d6 damage. Any roll of 1 to 3 on a d20 is considered a one, and applies a negative reality die on the next roll. Reality Die is a d8.
*Overwhelming*: Getting up is a lost cause, grabbing a sharp object is suicide, eating risks biting your tongue off. Animals starve, humans are found crawling slowly on the ground to avoid falling, buildings are brought down and windows shatter under the inconsistent gravity and unstable thermodynamics. Any task except lying on a bed requires DC 10 Balance checks each minute, with additional checks for tasks requiring precision. Every living creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each day as their organs fail to accomodate to the changing viscosity of the blood or take 1d6 Con damage. Attack rolls are made as if the character was underwater (-2 to hit, half damage) except if the character is subject to Freedom of Movement. Any roll of 1 to 6 on a d20 is considered a one, and applies a negative reality die on the next roll. Reality Die is a d10.

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## Quertus

> In my campaign, Thoon is a... prototype, for lack of a better word, physics engine. Instead of things happening neccessary by consequential action, the original idea was that Thoon would arbitrate what would happen, i.e. an object would fall not because of gravity, but because Thoon would "push" it downwards. I hope that makes vague sense.
> 
> My current ideas is that as Thoon gains more power, reality gets more arbitrary, as natural "laws" become more suggestions. I was thinking that as it gets stronger, people can treat objects (of varying hardness based on Sign Strength) as shapesand, warping it as they will, up to the point they can even change states or just straight up materials. But I was hoping for something more Elder Evil-ly.


My first thought in reading this was to have a series of horror story GMs come in to guest GM.  :Small Amused: 

So, why would Thoon allow objects to be sculpted? What is the underlying physics (Thoons thought process) there? Is Thoon Minecraft in creative mode?




> *Sign: Arbitrary Reality*: As the laws of reality begin to unravel, creatures are able to affect the world more based on their whims. Whenever a player characyer rolls a natural 20, they gain a Reality Die. They may spend this reality die to either grant themselves a bonus or inflict a penalty on an enemy on any D20 rolls. If a player rolls a Natural 1, the DM gets one die to use instead. Narratively, thia can be any given effect and can be described as nearly anything. All Reality Dice expire at the end of a session.
> *Least Sign*: The Reality Die is a d4.
> *Lesser Sign*: The Reality Die is a d6.
> *Greater Sign*: The Reality Die is a d8.
> *Overwhelming Sign*: The Reality Die is a d10.
> 
> This may be a *very* abstracted way of modeling the effects, but it seems simple and flexible in its mechanics. Thoughts?


Affect the world based on whims? Oh boy, now thats a can of worms. I had a GM grant is that ability; activating it was as simple as declaring I am there and enforcing your will over reality.

As many stories (most recently Wonder Woman?) have told, giving everyone in the world the ability to make their desires reality is a true end of the world scenario.

So, no need for other mechanics, just a slowly increasing amount of how big an effect sentient beings can will into existence (with perhaps some mechanics to give the Illithids an advantage, like it being Intelligence-based, or Quintessence acting as both a fuel and to stabilize the local area against non-quintessence-fueled changes), and youve got yourself a man-made apocalypse.

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## BioCharge

> Snip


See, I meant to say something along those lines as narrative background, but I forgot. The signs giving me narrative justificsrion for whatever random disaster I wanted. One I was fond of was "temporal stutters" where many timelines became concurrent in the one universe for but a moment causing items to displace, people to move, etc. Most of the sign's affects being largely narrative.




> Snip


That was also an angle I was hoping to leverage as more and more malevolent/less skilled/more impulsive people begin being able to exert their will over physical properties.

As for your question to Thoon's thought process and the likes: I, admittedly, purposely did not have anything particularly in mind. Thoon is meant to be a sort of unknowable, aa appropriate for something that is from the Far Realm/Xoriat. It's view of physics is what, essentially, got it scrapped by the Progenitors because it seemed to desire pain and hardship rather than something cohesive.

I was even thinking that the Sign would be less of Thoon's direct influence, but more just a factor of the "control" of physics being transferred to an "automated" system to a "manual" one. Everything isn't happening because someone is influencing it, but because someone _isn't_. It'd be to the point that Thoon would almost be a savior once it took control and restabilized everything. At least, until it started making things go all Far Realm-y.

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## Quertus

> more just a factor of the "control" of physics being transferred to an "automated" system to a "manual" one. Everything isn't happening because someone is influencing it, but because someone _isn't_.


Cause and effect?

Create an abbreviated deck, like one would use for a Deck of Many Things. Whenever an action is taken, flip a card. If its a Joker, Reality simply forgets that the effect was supposed to happen (toon running off a cliff, the dead condition doesnt list any effects). Then flip the next card. If it is *also* a Joker, choose a random effect, or apply the expected effect to a random target (I ordered my steak medium rare. Now my sword / the BBEG is hot and smells so tempting). Once a Joker is shown, reshuffle the deck.

Or honestly, if I were emulating physics breaking down, Id have good ol 2e boot up to try and save the world, and all that implies. Or even take the opportunity to use various rules sets (Pendragon, Toon, whatever) as different physics engines vie for control.

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