# Forum > Comics > The Order of the Stick >  Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

## TheWombatOfDoom

This is a thread for posting anything and everything you might have not noticed your first time around, or even consecutive readings in the Order of the Stick Comic series!  This could be a small realization like that Belkar has hair on his head and feet, or a huge revelation of some sort.  Big or Small, we'd love to hear from you!  Needless to say, there's gonna be *spoilers* if you aren't up to date. 

Previous Threads: 

 Things You Never Noticed I 
 Things You Never Noticed II: I Never Noticed the First Thread
 Things You Never Noticed III: The Search for Spot 
 Things You Never Noticed IV: There's A Comic in the Sidebar?
 Things You Never Noticed V: Your Familiar
 Things You Never Noticed VI: The Undiscovered Detail

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## Rogar Demonblud

Durkon is acrophobic, given both his expression in the Wind Walk in book 4 and the end of the last bonus strip in book 6.

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## Ruck

> Durkon is acrophobic, given both his expression in the Wind Walk in book 4 and the end of the last bonus strip in book 6.


Which may be explained by the first strip of book 6.

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## TheWombatOfDoom

> Question Mark


Punctuation I decided on, as starter of the thread.   :Small Wink:

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## Ron Miel

> Durkon is acrophobic, given both his expression in the Wind Walk in book 4 and the end of the last bonus strip in book 6.


Also #887 panel 3. The others know him well enough to incorporate his fear of heights into their shared illusion.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Well, they probably noticed how unhappy he was getting on the carpet back at Bleedingham.

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## Zyzzyva

In comic 1179, the two priestesses holding up the shower curtain are the priestess of Hermod (in a blindfold) and of Hoder (who is blind). Nice touch for privacy.

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## danielxcutter

> In comic 1179, the two priestesses holding up the shower curtain are the priestess of Hermod (in a blindfold) and of Hoder (who is blind). Nice touch for privacy.


Also one of the high priests playing cards with the high priest of Loki is the HPoFreyr, and Freyr is the God of Prosperity, who voted No since "there's no profit without a little risk". Makes sense he'd be willing to take a risk by playing with a priest of Loki, eh?

And speaking of votes, the only votes that actively suck in #999 are Fenrir, Balder, and Njord - all the others have at least _some_ reasoning.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Fenrir's makes sense. He likes killing, so let's get the killing started.

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## CriticalFailure

And Njord wanted to try a new coastline.

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## danielxcutter

> Fenrir's makes sense. He likes killing, so let's get the killing started.





> And Njord wanted to try a new coastline.


Well "sense" as in "not entirely apathetic to the mortals", really.

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## bc56

> In comic 1179, the two priestesses holding up the shower curtain are the priestess of Hermod (in a blindfold) and of Hoder (who is blind). Nice touch for privacy.


I feel like it would have been a better idea to use the priest of Vafthrudnir instead of the priestess of Hermod. The god of secrets can probably be trusted with people's privacy.
Unless he's one of those gods who sell secrets.

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## danielxcutter

> I feel like it would have been a better idea to use the priest of Vafthrudnir instead of the priestess of Hermod. The god of secrets can probably be trusted with people's privacy.
> Unless he's one of those gods who sell secrets.


Yeah, but he's a dude. Besides, if this was being 100% logical then they wouldn't have the high priestess of Njord being used as an impromptu shower head.  :Small Tongue:

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## bc56

> Yeah, but he's a dude. Besides, if this was being 100% logical then they wouldn't have the high priestess of Njord being used as an impromptu shower head.


Very true.
They have a tub, it seems like baths would be a lot easier to do than showers.

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## Rogar Demonblud

So how many of you also didn't notice that the HPoNjord is also blindfolded?

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## Synesthesy

I have never noticed that this isn't the MitD thread!


Someone must say that sooner or later.

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## danielxcutter

Is the name of this thread too long for it to hyperlink properly to the new post? Looks like that's happening to me...

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## Jaxzan Proditor

> Is the name of this thread too long for it to hyperlink properly to the new post? Looks like that's happening to me...


I think its because of the apostrophe. Guess thats something about hyperlinks you didnt notice before.  :Small Tongue:

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## Grey Watcher

What may or may not be some light foreshadowing:

Read panels 2 and 3 here and then the last page and a half of this.

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## Quizatzhaderac

> Very true.
> They have a tub, it seems like baths would be a lot easier to do than showers.


And now I remembered that there's no drain in the floor.

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## danielxcutter

I just noticed that hyperlinks to new posts work now! Thanks Wombat!

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## Jannoire

> Which may be explained by the first strip of book 6.


After reading it, I noticed something else... 

Why in the unholy Hel did this dwarf climb on that ladder? It's not secured and it doesn't lead anywhere... It's like he was just there to provide the scene...

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## Peelee

> After reading it, I noticed something else... 
> 
> Why in the unholy Hel did this dwarf climb on that ladder? It's not secured and it doesn't lead anywhere... It's like he was just there to provide the scene...


It leads to a ledge, which he is presumably trying to get on. The panel showing him falling doesn't have that, but that could be an art mistake.

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## Jannoire

Not something I never noticed before, but something that bugs me out EVERYTIME I read it...

In #297, when Roy gets his sword reforged, the blacksmith talks about 'a green aura that's harmful to undead'. She then starts to talk about counteracting it... Why would anyone want to counteract this?

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## danielxcutter

> Not something I never noticed before, but something that bugs me out EVERYTIME I read it...
> 
> In #297, when Roy gets his sword reforged, the blacksmith talks about 'a green aura that's harmful to undead'. She then starts to talk about counteracting it... Why would anyone want to counteract this?


Probably because right before that, Roy was like "oh not another unforeseen side effect of something that would have been otherwise entirely positive". When he realizes he was wrong, he quickly changes his tune.

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## Schroeswald

> Not something I never noticed before, but something that bugs me out EVERYTIME I read it...
> 
> In #297, when Roy gets his sword reforged, the blacksmith talks about 'a green aura that's harmful to undead'. She then starts to talk about counteracting it... Why would anyone want to counteract this?


I think that its because its not just undead, only particularly, while we never see it it is possible that it is also harmful to Roy and so you might want to not get that.

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## danielxcutter

> I think that its because its not just undead, only particularly, while we never see it it is possible that it is also harmful to Roy and so you might want to not get that.


Are undead universally considered evil, super bad things in the OotSverse? I presume so, considering that outside of the Godsmoot, undead are treated with hostility at best by most people.

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## Peelee

> Not something I never noticed before, but something that bugs me out EVERYTIME I read it...
> 
> In #297, when Roy gets his sword reforged, the blacksmith talks about 'a green aura that's harmful to undead'. She then starts to talk about counteracting it... Why would anyone want to counteract this?


Maybe the blacksmith is neutral and doesn't judge.

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## Rogar Demonblud

It would be an alteration to how the sword previously worked, where Roy wanted it restored to original condition. Simple miscommunication of expectations.

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## artstsym

Seems obvious, but it's the sort of foreshadowing you can't keep in mind waiting for releases week to week: Durkon begins formulating his plan to oust Durkula in panel 25 of #963. I always just thought that was a comedic pause, but he's internalizing that the vampire can't recognize connections between his memories, and pivots to a joke on the spot so he can figure out what to do with the single weakness he's discovered.

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## ijuinkun

> Not something I never noticed before, but something that bugs me out EVERYTIME I read it...
> 
> In #297, when Roy gets his sword reforged, the blacksmith talks about 'a green aura that's harmful to undead'. She then starts to talk about counteracting it... Why would anyone want to counteract this?


For stealth, perhaps? A green glow would make the sword highly visible, which would be counter-productive if the sword-wielder is trying to avoid being noticed prior to striking.

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## Fyraltari

As a purveyor of service its not her job to assume what her consumer wants or doesnt want. The glow is an unintended side-effect of her work, its her job to tell him what can be done about that. Whether something should be done is his decision to make, not hers.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Or maybe the issue is that it was glowing green and not blue. Azure City, remember.

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## Jasdoif

> Or maybe the issue is that it was glowing green and not blue. Azure City, remember.


Yeah, I think you'd have to head out to Olive Isthmus for that to be popular.

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## ByzantiumBhuka

I just noticed that in comic #889, when the party breaks free from the phantasm, the chaotic members of the Order don't have much trouble adjusting to the leap, while Lawful Roy wakes up with a headache. That's pretty consistent with something that Girard would program into the phantasm.

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## Bedinsis

Not so much never noticed as never made the connection, but:

In page #913 Tarquin starts off by offering Elan assistance, an assistance he rejects.

By the end of the page Nale, his other son, has made it clear that he does not want his assistance.

In other words, both his sons reject his assistance on the same page.

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## onigame

> Seems obvious, but it's the sort of foreshadowing you can't keep in mind waiting for releases week to week: Durkon begins formulating his plan to oust Durkula in panel 25 of #963. I always just thought that was a comedic pause, but he's internalizing that the vampire can't recognize connections between his memories, and pivots to a joke on the spot so he can figure out what to do with the single weakness he's discovered.


And you didn't mention this explicitly, but part of the subtle hinting that confirms this is how Durkon emphasizes the word "somethin'", meaning that he's noticed that his memories are capable of influencing the vampire's -- since the vampire otherwise would have said "something" instead of "somethin'".

Tha's something' I din' notice 'til I read this strip tha third time.

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## onigame

On strip #1044 Bandana mentions "Passage Pass", which is redundant because "Pass" and "Passage" mean the same thing.  What I only noticed on the second read-through is that she mentions "Fissure Gap", which is exactly the same thing.  In real life, people wouldn't name things redundantly like that.  Except the River Avon, or the La Brea Tar Pits, or Table Mesa... okay, fine, I guess it only happens if you're in the Milky Way Galaxy.

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## Peelee

> On strip #1044 Bandana mentions "Passage Pass", which is redundant because "Pass" and "Passage" mean the same thing.  What I only noticed on the second read-through is that she mentions "Fissure Gap", which is exactly the same thing.


Most names in Stickworld are like that. For example, the Wooden Forest. IIRC, the intent was to make Stickworld a paper-thin world such that it could reflect any sort of campaign or game.

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## Fyraltari

The death-worm was about to parrot Grubwigler.

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## Ruck

> The death-worm was about to parrot Grubwigler.


Meanwhile, I just noticed that Durkon tells Kandro in #1165 that he cannot stay long, but in the next strip it's _Kandro_ who leaves us.

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## Rollin

I can't believe this never occurred to me before, but in #1177, when Thor says of Durkon, "Now it's time for me to put my faith in you," he's addressing _a stone statue_ which he knows can, itself, neither help nor hear him. The role reversal is more complete than I'd realized.

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## onigame

In Strip #1139 (only in the book), there's a smaller fainter memorial that is in *front* of a larger one.  Probably just a layering issue by Rich, but it's fun to think that maybe there was a world created on the side.

EDIT: Actually it does appear in the on-line strip too, now that I look closer:

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## Ron Miel

I'm not sure which one you're talking about. There's many instances of a small memorial in front of a larger one, and several in that clipping alone. We can conclude that memorials are different sizes.

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## hroþila

So, we know that Hel didn't get a vote before the current Godsmoot, which had an even number of votes. We also know that the demigods have voted in previous Godsmoots. Further, we know the demigods only vote in case of a tie. This probably means that gods can and have abstained in previous votes, either by explicitly voting Abstain or by not showing up at the Godsmoot. While it's possible that one high priest or another failed to make it to previous Godsmoots in time, that doesn't sound like the kind of thing that would happen often enough for people to be familiar with Dvalin's MO. If this reasoning is correct, the fact that no one abstained illustrates how serious this vote was.

I find this as interesting as completely inconsequential.

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## danielxcutter

Eh, probably just didnt end in a tie back then.

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## hroþila

> Eh, probably just didnt end in a tie back then.


But if there's no tie among the full-fledged gods, the demigods don't vote at all.

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## Lord Torath

> But if there's no tie among the full-fledged gods, the demigods don't vote at all.


Which is why they don't usually bother showing up.  But yes, that does imply the ties do happen with some frequency, but certainly not often.

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## hroþila

> Which is why they don't usually bother showing up.  But yes, that does imply the ties do happen with some frequency, but certainly not often.


Right, but what I'm saying is that with an odd number of Northern gods before Hel had a high priest, those ties mean abstaining is a possibility.

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## mjp1050

Something I've never noticed: the borders of 339 and 340 are off-white. They don't quite match up with the webpage's background.

(Admittedly, this might just be a glitch or an art error, but it's only showing up for these two strips.)

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## ti'esar

It's probably a minor glitch with the site rework. I'm pretty sure they weren't like that before.

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## Peelee

If building my last stormtrooper costume has taught me anything, it's that there are a billion shades of white, and absolutely none of them match the shade you need them to.

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## CriticalFailure

I just saw an amazing youtube video of an artist I like playing kazoo better than I knew kazoo could be played. Maybe Elan taking Perform (Kazoo) wouldn't be bad after all.

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## Hekko

In 0196 Xykon says that the five adventures other than Serini built strongholds to protect the Gates. It seems he was unaware that Kraagor had died. It's perfectly possible he simply didn't read the corresponding part of the diary with enough attention, but it makes me wonder what else, possibly more important, he overlooked, and whether Red Cloak studied the diary with more vigilance.

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## dsollen

This is more of a "always bothers me when I read the comic"  but the joke here about an animal companion being hung like a bear always distracts me because bears really aren't 'hung'.  They are actually pretty tiny relative to their body size.  

No I'm not certain why I know that particular fact so well that it's the first thing that comes to mind each time I read that strip, I feel like it's a line of questioning best not followed..

Also I now notice that he mentions he has to work to gain a level of Expert.  I didn't know at the time, but the standard joke over on the Class and Level Geekery page is to presume everyone is an Expert; finally they get to actually classify someone as one.

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## Ron Miel

> This is more of a "always bothers me when I read the comic"  but the joke here about an animal companion being hung like a bear always distracts me because bears really aren't 'hung'.  They are actually pretty tiny relative to their body size.


And I just noticed in the same panel that the Oracle says 'him' twice.

"... I tell him him yes ..."

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## Elenna

Not sure if you can say "never noticed" about the most recent comic, but someone pointed out in the discussion thread for 1199 that Mr. Scruffy is angry, so I went back to look at that a second time. And yet I didn't notice until my _third_ reread today that he's not just making angry eyebrows, he's also meowing at Roy.  :Small Big Grin:

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## Schroeswald

Belkar is playing with Mr. Scruffy in  strip 379, foreshadowing(?) the fact that he ends up being his owner.

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## Lord Torath

I never noticed that Miko rides bareback.

The Order uses saddles (well, except for Belkar).  Hinjo has one for Argent.  Heck, even the demon roach uses a saddle.

Xykon doesn't, giving him another thing in common with Miko.

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## danielxcutter

Didnt notice the Death Knight tore off his robe here.

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## Lord Torath

> Didnt notice the Death Knight tore off his robe here.


And yet again, the unholy abomination rides bare-back.

No saddles for the allosauruses, but the raptors get them.  I can't tell about the Pteranadons, but I'm inclined to say "no."  I thought Tarquin's had saddlebags, but it was just an emergency pouch.  But the triceratops used a saddle, and the Patagotitan-sized brontosaurus had a howda.

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## Oddstar

> On strip #1044 Bandana mentions "Passage Pass", which is redundant because "Pass" and "Passage" mean the same thing.  What I only noticed on the second read-through is that she mentions "Fissure Gap", which is exactly the same thing.  In real life, people wouldn't name things redundantly like that.  Except the River Avon, or the La Brea Tar Pits, or Table Mesa... okay, fine, I guess it only happens if you're in the Milky Way Galaxy.


Yeah, that's actually pretty common in the real world: Nile and Indus both mean river; Mississippi means big river; Rhine and Rhone both mean flow, i.e., river.  The Sahara and the Arabian Deserts are both technically the Desert Desert.  Alps means mountains.  A lot of the names of geographic features started out as common nouns.  I just figured that the people in the Stickverse don't speak English, and the software that Burlew has been using to translate their language into English doesn't recognize place-names as proper nouns, so it just translates them literally.  

On topic, I only noticed that the flag of Gobbotopia in 702 has a brown star for the bugbears after I read 1038.

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## danielxcutter

...Huh. The green star is the goblins, the orange star the hobgoblins, and the purple one TDO then. Neat.

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## Mariele

> On topic, I only noticed that the flag of Gobbotopia in 702 has a brown star for the bugbears after I read 1038.


I never noticed this either!

Rereading some of the archive today, and this is a small one, but I only just now noticed that it was Blackwing talking in panel 3 of #903. I always thought it was just V talking aloud, didn't notice Blackwing was contributing.

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## Lord Torath

I never noticed Kudzu reaching for Hilgya's dangling braid in panel 2.

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## Ruck

> On strip #1044 Bandana mentions "Passage Pass", which is redundant because "Pass" and "Passage" mean the same thing.  What I only noticed on the second read-through is that she mentions "Fissure Gap", which is exactly the same thing.  In real life, people wouldn't name things redundantly like that.  Except the River Avon, or the La Brea Tar Pits, or Table Mesa... okay, fine, I guess it only happens if you're in the Milky Way Galaxy.


A lot of OOTS locations are named like this. (Remember the time we spent in the Wooden Forest?)

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## understatement

I feel like it's been pointed out a lot, but in this strip Redcloak is actually tugging his cloak over the phylactery in the last panel. Which begs the question why he put it on his left side of his belt and it somehow migrated to his right...?

Also, in the next strip in the second panel the wights are just standing there, close to Tsukiko. I found that detail pretty creepy.

Second page, third panel, one of the crewmembers has an O-Chul-esque scar over his face.

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## Fyraltari

> I feel like it's been pointed out a lot, but in this strip Redcloak is actually tugging his cloak over the phylactery in the last panel. Which begs the question why he put it on his left side of his belt and it somehow migrated to his right...?


He handled it with his right hand and so put it on the right side of his belt. Noticing the possible danger he both cast with his right hand and hid the phylactery with his remaining (left) hand putting it on the left side of his cloak.

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## understatement

> He handled it with his right hand and so put it on the right side of his belt. Noticing the possible danger he both cast with his right hand and hid the phylactery with his remaining (left) hand putting it on the left side of his cloak.


But in the penultimate panel it's seen that the phylactery hangs off on his right side of his belt. And later he takes out the phylactery from his right side too.

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## Fyraltari

> But in the penultimate panel it's seen that the phylactery hangs off on his right side of his belt. And later he takes out the phylactery from his right side too.


Maybe he just reached that far behind his back?

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## understatement

> Maybe he just reached that far behind his back?


And he did the entire thing behind the cloak? 

 :Redcloak: Dexterity: 20+

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## danielxcutter

Tsukiko has problems finding secret doors that are literally in front of her. Even if she knew that was the phylactery - remember, it was originally Redcloaks holy symbol, so outwardly it would likely look as a normal symbol of such - she probably would have failed the Spot check to notice it in the first place.

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## understatement

> Tsukiko has problems finding secret doors that are literally in front of her. Even if she knew that was the phylactery - remember, it was originally Redcloaks holy symbol, so outwardly it would likely look as a normal symbol of such - she probably would have failed the Spot check to notice it in the first place.


Good point.

Also...for the whole "Durkon destroying the oak table," was the table the third ring of defense? I can't find if they ever explicitly confirm it or not.

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## Grey_Wolf_c

> Also...for the whole "Durkon destroying the oak table," was the table the third ring of defense? I can't find if they ever explicitly confirm it or not.


No, the first ring of defence was the outside of the cave - a narrow bridge over a chasm. Second was the first barrier (anti-magic) with soldiers behind it. And the third the last barrier, that turned you to stone if you broke the rules.

Grey Wolf

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## Fyraltari

> No, the first ring of defence was the outside of the cave - a narrow bridge over a chasm. Second was the first barrier (anti-magic) with soldiers behind it. And the third the last barrier, that turned you to stone if you broke the rules.
> 
> Grey Wolf


Alternatively:

1) Orange Barrier that keeps foreigners, magic and foreign magic away.

2) Guards in the stairway.

3) Blue Barrier to prevent foul play.

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## Grey Watcher

> And he did the entire thing behind the cloak? 
> 
> Dexterity: 20+


His pants clearly only have one back pocket, on the right side.  Since he readied his magic in his dominant hand first, he was forced to twist a bit to put the phylactery in his back pocket with his only remaining free hand.  At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it, no matter how little sense modern pants pocket on medieval/Renaissance-esque armor makes.   :Small Tongue:

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## Jasdoif

> At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it, no matter how little sense modern pants pocket on medieval/Renaissance-esque armor makes.


How _else_ would a heavily-armored spellcaster be expected to have ready access to their spell components and focuses?

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## Peelee

> Alternatively:
> 
> 1) Orange Barrier that keeps foreigners, magic and foreign magic away.
> 
> 2) Guards in the stairway.
> 
> 3) Blue Barrier to prevent foul play.


Thats how I would call it.

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## understatement

> His pants clearly only have one back pocket, on the right side.  Since he readied his magic in his dominant hand first, he was forced to twist a bit to put the phylactery in his back pocket with his only remaining free hand.  At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it, no matter how little sense modern pants pocket on medieval/Renaissance-esque armor makes.


But...why? Also he's just hanging it on his belt. And I'm surprised he didn't tuck it away _before_ teleporting back to a place he knows that Xykon and Tsukiko could be watching. 

Good thing the hobgoblin 'janitor' had more than one pocket then, or else Tsukiko would have found something else along with a key.




> No, the first ring of defence was the outside of the cave - a narrow bridge over a chasm. Second was the first barrier (anti-magic) with soldiers behind it. And the third the last barrier, that turned you to stone if you broke the rules.
> 
> Grey Wolf





> Alternatively:
> 
> 1) Orange Barrier that keeps foreigners, magic and foreign magic away.
> 
> 2) Guards in the stairway.
> 
> 3) Blue Barrier to prevent foul play.


Is there a comic strip where this is concretely mention? I thought the oak table might've been the "ring of defense" Durkon was talking about due to 

a) it's a ring

b) the amount of rule-fu Durkon used meant only people familiar with the laws could use it to maximum effect. Durkon? Read that green book front and back. Gontor? Maybe skipped it over. Voila, Durkon wins.

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## Grey_Wolf_c

> Is there a comic strip where this is concretely mention?


No, but for my part, this one says they are in the middle chamber and talks about the inner chamber being the meeting room, which implies an outer chamber as well, neatly matching Durkon's words of three rings of defence. It also explains the lack of safety handrails in the bridge.

Grey Wolf

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## Peelee

> No, but for my part, this one says they are in the middle chamber and talks about the inner chamber being the meeting room, which implies an outer chamber as well, neatly matching Durkon's words of three rings of defence. It also explains the lack of safety handrails in the bridge.
> 
> Grey Wolf


I never noticed that dwarves studied under the Imperial School of Civil Engineering at Coruscant.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Why would dwarves worry about railings? Proper folk are very Stable and will never go over the edge. It's the flighty leaf-eared ones who do silly things like that.

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## Fyraltari

> I never noticed that dwarves studied under the Imperial School of Civil Engineering at Coruscant.


Please, they obviously studied at Narvis School of Architecture, Sculpture and Smithing in Moria. They are dwarves after all.

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## Grey_Wolf_c

> Why would dwarves worry about railings? Proper folk are very Stable and will never go over the edge. It's the flighty leaf-eared ones who do silly things like that.


Because tripping due to aching joints and falling to your death is not a honorable death.

And yes, I think you're not being serious, but the bridge is wide enough it is not dangerous for a few individuals in a small group. But it is a great defensive setup if a mob is clamoring for a representative government.

First ring of defence: anti-armies
Second ring of defence: anti-magic & foreigners
Third ring of defence: anti-antics

Grey Wolf

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## Peelee

> Because tripping due to aching joints and falling to your death is not a honorable death.
> 
> And yes, I think you're not being serious, but the bridge is wide enough it is not dangerous for a few individuals in a small group. But it is a great defensive setup if a mob is clamoring for a representative government.
> 
> First ring of defence: anti-armies
> Second ring of defence: anti-magic & foreigners
> Third ring of defence: anti-antics
> 
> Grey Wolf


Unless the armies ride single file to hide their numbers!

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## Grey_Wolf_c

> Unless the armies ride single file to hide their numbers!


That'd be the intelligent thing to do.




> The intelligence of that creature known as a crowd is the square root of the number of people in it.





> the IQ of a mob is the IQ of its most stupid member divided by the number of mobsters


Grey Wolf

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## Jasdoif

> Unless the armies ride single file to hide their numbers!


Come to think of it, gaderffii _do_ (vaguely) resemble urgroshes....Maybe dwarves are a (distant) offshoot of the Sand People?

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## Bedinsis

I only noticed the... black thingies in the background on panel one of this page.

I tried to figure out what it was by reading through earlier pages and later pages but alas, I failed.

My best guesses is that it is either more, smaller pieces of the zombie dragon also falling to the ground or shots from the catapults in the distance.

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## Grey_Wolf_c

> I only noticed the... black thingies in the background on panel one of this page.
> 
> I tried to figure out what it was by reading through earlier pages and later pages but alas, I failed.
> 
> My best guesses is that it is either more, smaller pieces of the zombie dragon also falling to the ground or shots from the catapults in the distance.


Looks like arrows to me.

Grey Wolf

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## Peelee

> I only noticed the... black thingies in the background on panel one of this page.
> 
> I tried to figure out what it was by reading through earlier pages and later pages but alas, I failed.
> 
> My best guesses is that it is either more, smaller pieces of the zombie dragon also falling to the ground or shots from the catapults in the distance.


You mean the arrows?

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## Bedinsis

> You mean the arrows?


...I probably did.

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## Draconian

Something I hadn't realized initially (which I'm sure others had noticed): MITD apparently doesn't leave tracks in the snow when painting the doors

----------


## Quebbster

> Something I hadn't realized initially (which I'm sure others had noticed): MITD apparently doesn't leave tracks in the snow when painting the doors


It's been discussed in the MitD thread, yes. Jury's still out on whether it is a clue or not though.
Fortunately this thread isn't called "Things no one noticed before". It would probably be much shorter if that was the case.

----------


## Squire Doodad

Julio is so focused on defense that he hasn't drawn blood - leading him to only do so when Tarquin starts to put his attention on Elan again.

----------


## 137beth

> Right, but what I'm saying is that with an odd number of Northern gods before Hel had a high priest, those ties mean abstaining is a possibility.


I'm a bit late in responding (less than two months though), but do we know Dvalin ascended to demigodhood during this world?  If not, it's possible there were more ties during Godsmoots in previous worlds, back when Hel had clerics.

After writing the above out but before submitting it, I remembered that one of the high priests brings snacks because they were there for the previous tie.  So even if Dvalin didn't ascend during this world, there has been at least one other tie during this world's tenure.

Also, Rubyrock's explanation that  the Council of Clans still exists, but is not the current Dwarven government makes it sound (to me, anyhow) like the Council of Clans has existed continuously since Dvalin was mortal, which precludes him being a holdover from a previous world, but I suppose it's possible that a previous world also had a dwarven council of clans.




Or...going further out on the limb of the barely-plausible, maybe the mortal predecessor of Dvalin never actually swore such an oath:  maybe prior to this world, Dvalin would vote however he liked.  But in this world, the dwarves are more honorable than in previous worlds (because Thor told them about the bet), and so they believe that their ascendent former king would be just as honorable as them.  Since gods are shaped by belief, Dvalin changed his behavior accordingly.  The dwarves' belief also alterted Dvalin's memories of how he voted during previous worlds to match the justification he gave at the Moot.  

Note: I make no claim that my hypothesis in the previous paragraph is _likely_, but I do not immediately see a way in which it can be completely ruled out using the text of the comic.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

We really can't say anything, because anything people believe about Dvalin could've been baked in to the world's metaphysics when the place was created. For all we know, Dvalin's been around for the last 50,000 worlds.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Also, Rubyrock's explanation that  the Council of Clans still exists, but is not the current Dwarven government makes it sound (to me, anyhow) like the Council of Clans has existed continuously since Dvalin was mortal, which precludes him being a holdover from a previous world, but I suppose it's possible that a previous world also had a dwarven council of clans.


I can't recall if it's confirmed or just implied, but I took that to mean the former. Dvalin is probably from this world.
Not all gods make it through the interim period, so a demigod is less likely to have survived. Especially since the last batch of Northerners were apparently quite different from this one.

----------


## Peelee

That the Dark One might not be about to survive the transition to a new world, despite being an ascended full God with an entire race solely devoted to him, means that Dvalin is almost certainly from this world.

Not to mention he's the first king of the dwarves, so they presumably have a list going back to him. And, given that they never knew of previous worlds, that lost would be pretty airtight.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Not to mention he's the first king of the dwarves, so they presumably have a list going back to him. And, given that they never knew of previous worlds, that lost would be pretty airtight.


On the "first king" bit in particular, I imagine "First King of Dwarves" could be a title given to the "spiritual leader" of a race, much like calling Thor "Lord of Thunder". Similarly, you might call King Arthur "First King of Britain" given his iconic nature.

----------


## Schroeswald

> On the "first king" bit in particular, I imagine "First King of Dwarves" could be a title given to the "spiritual leader" of a race, much like calling Thor "Lord of Thunder". You might call a deified King Arthur "First King of Britain" in such a scenario.


Isn't Arthur "supposed" to be the First King of Britain in a way though? Like he was supposedly the first king to rule over all of Britain (historically I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be accurate in any way but most of King Arthur is so wildly and clearly ahistorical this doesn't really matter)?

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Isn't Arthur "supposed" to be the First King of Britain in a way though? Like he was supposedly the first king to rule over all of Britain (historically I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be accurate in any way but most of King Arthur is so wildly and clearly ahistorical this doesn't really matter)?


Wasn't King Uther Pendragon also ruling over all of Britain? I can't quite recall, but as you said there's lots of conflicting stuff about King Arthur, let alone the people before him in those same stories.

----------


## Schroeswald

> Wasn't King Uther Pendragon also ruling over all of Britain? I can't quite recall, but as you said there's lots of conflicting stuff about King Arthur, let alone the people before him in those same stories.


I think Uther had a couple rival kings that Arthur defeated? But I'm not sure and that might just be me coming up with something for no reason whatsoever.

But yeah, Arthurian legend is very conflicting, especially because writers can't decide if they want to say that any of the story is real or not.

EDIT: Also, just realized that you just came back today, no wonder I hadn't noticed your sig during my "Read every post on the whole board" thing in awhile.

----------


## hamishspence

The notion of "many petty kings, ruled over by a high  king" certainly has  some precedent in Welsh _history_ as well as Welsh _mythology_  (Arthurian mythos  originating  from  Wales).

However, the earliest iterations  of Arthur, tend not to put _him_ in that position - and suggest he may  be  a "leader of battles" (a _general_, basically) who led the armies on  behalf  of the kings.

----------


## ti'esar

> That the DARK One might not be about to survive the transition to a new world, despite being an ascended full God with an entire race solely devoted to him, means that Dvalin is almost certainly from this world.


I'm trying to find a source for this, but I got the sense that being part of a pantheon helps a lot with having the faith energy necessary to survive transition.

(FWIW, I think Dvalin ascended during this world's existence, and the elven gods predate it.)

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> I'm trying to find a source for this, but I got the sense that being part of a pantheon helps a lot with having the faith energy necessary to survive transition.


You may be thinking of this early strip.

Grey Wolf

----------


## Peelee

> You may be thinking of this early strip.
> 
> Grey Wolf


In which case, I would not take Elan's word on how it works.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> In which case, I would not take Elan's word on how it works.


Maybe not in the specifics, but on the broad sense, it is true that being part of a pantheon means you share the load - Thor stories of beating Loki gives him worship and belief, but also gives Loki belief, and the same is true about Loki stories - sure, they promote him (worship), but increases the belief across the whole pantheon, since the stories will involve the other gods, sooner or later. Heck, that has to be part of how Hel is surviving, since she lacks the priests to instill belief in her - she's dependent on every other priest of the North painting her as the Death god. But none of those stories involve the DO, so he gets none of the belief.

Grey Wolf

----------


## Peelee

> Maybe not in the specifics, but on the broad sense, it is true that being part of a pantheon means you share the load - Thor stories of beating Loki gives hims worship and belief, but also gives Loki belief, and the same is true about Loki stories - sure, they promote him (worship), but increases the belief across the whole pantheon, since the stories will involve the other gods, sooner or later. Heck, that has to be part of how Hel is surviving, since she lacks the priests to instill belief in her - she's dependent on every other priest of the North painting her as the Death god. But none of those stories involve the DO, so he gets none of the belief.
> 
> Grey Wolf


Fair point, but TDO still has all goblinoid belief regardless, and a fair share of fervent worship that is undivided.

I see no reason to believe Dvalin is not from this world. The elven gods we don't really know anything about, IIRC; are they demigods that only the elves really worship but were otherwise always in place, like Thrym or Surtur? Were they elves who ascended and became demigods? Don't know (and if we do know, I don't remember). In any event, I would contend that any ascended demigod

----------


## Squire Doodad

> I think Uther had a couple rival kings that Arthur defeated? But I'm not sure and that might just be me coming up with something for no reason whatsoever.
> 
> But yeah, Arthurian legend is very conflicting, especially because writers can't decide if they want to say that any of the story is real or not.
> 
> EDIT: Also, just realized that you just came back today, no wonder I hadn't noticed your sig during my "Read every post on the whole board" thing in awhile.


Haha, glad to be remembered. Not sure if I'm going to be "back" much, just that I have too much time on my hands now.

----------


## Vinyadan

*Spoiler: Start of Darkness*
Show

I never noticed why Rat is furious (1143): in SoD 42, he informs The Dark One about the Gates, and he is described as one of his few allies. So he had more reason than the rest of the Twelve to be angered by the Dark One's High Priest destroying Azure City.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> *Spoiler: Start of Darkness*
> Show
> 
> I never noticed why Rat is furious (1143): in SoD 42, he informs The Dark One about the Gates, and he is described as one of his few allies. So he had more reason than the rest of the Twelve to be angered by the Dark One's High Priest destroying Azure City.


Good catch! It's interesting how Rich makes all the stories blend together that way.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Fair point, but TDO still has all goblinoid belief regardless, and a fair share of fervent worship that is undivided.
> 
> I see no reason to believe Dvalin is not from this world. The elven gods we don't really know anything about, IIRC; are they demigods that only the elves really worship but were otherwise always in place, like Thrym or Surtur? Were they elves who ascended and became demigods? Don't know (and if we do know, I don't remember). In any event, I would contend that any ascended demigod


It seems to me that being in a pantheon is an effective survival tactic, if ones worshipping base is split between several gods like the humans are but as it limits infighting between worshippers. Sure the priests of Loki and Thor arent happy about each other but on the whole the various temples of the northern gods are unlikely to try to drive out the competition from their territory when said competition is part of the pantheon and more likely to band together if some hot new cult tried to move on their turf. But since the Dark One is apprently the only one trying to get goblin worship, thats no issue for him.

The Dark One (and Banjo) is the only god for whom we have an estimate of apotheosis and only the gods shown in the beginning of Shojos flashback (Odin, Marduk, Dragon, Thor, the Eastern Pantheon and a couple others) are certified as being there before the worlds. Surtur and Thrym might be ascended Giants for all we know.

----------


## Peelee

> It seems to me that being in a pantheon is an effective survival tactic, if ones worshipping base is split between several gods like the humans are but as it limits infighting between worshippers. Sure the priests of Loki and Thor arent happy about each other but on the whole the various temples of the northern gods are unlikely to try to drive out the competition from their territory when said competition is part of the pantheon and more likely to band together if some hot new cult tried to move on their turf. But since the Dark One is apprently the only one trying to get goblin worship, thats no issue for him.
> 
> The Dark One (and Banjo) is the only god for whom we have an estimate of apotheosis and only the gods shown in the beginning of Shojos flashback (Odin, Marduk, Dragon, Thor, the Eastern Pantheon and a couple others) are certified as being there before the worlds. Surtur and Thrym might be ascended Giants for all we know.


They could indeed. But then why are there so few demigods? Given the uncountable worlds that have existed, even if only one in a million got a mortal to become a demigod, that would still work out to thousands, if not millions, of potential demigods variously. The two simplest answers to this are:
A.) apotheosis even to demigod state is so rare that it's practically unheard of - an answer which also assumes that Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves, who swore an oath to always abide by the will of the council.... wasn't, and didn't, which I am not a fan of - or
2.) demigods don't survive the transition to the new world.

----------


## Fyraltari

> They could indeed. But then why are there so few demigods? Given the uncountable worlds that have existed, even if only one in a million got a mortal to become a demigod, that would still work out to thousands, if not millions, of potential demigods variously. The two simplest answers to this are:
> A.) apotheosis even to demigod state is so rare that it's practically unheard of - an answer which also assumes that Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves, who swore an oath to always abide by the will of the council.... wasn't, and didn't, which I am not a fan of - or
> 2.) demigods don't survive the transition to the new world.


3) Pantheons only help a mortal achieve godhood when it is in their interest to do so. For example Dvalin may have been sponsored because Thor felt the need for the dwarves to have an ethnic god to help shoulder his burden of shield them from the Bet and when the mortal Dvalin died and the opportunity prensented itself he got enough relatives on-board with the idea.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

> The notion of "many petty kings, ruled over by a high  king" certainly has  some precedent in Welsh _history_ as well as Welsh _mythology_  (Arthurian mythos  originating  from  Wales).


Irish too, under the High King of Tara. Reputedly, they had over a hundred kings when the Vikings showed up and began forced consolidation.

----------


## Peelee

> 3) Pantheons only help a mortal achieve godhood when it is in their interest to do so


Covered under the first possibility; regardless of why, it's still unimaginably rare, given how few there seem to be compared to how many worlds there have been. That does combat the assumption, I'll admit, but I don't find it particularly persuasive.

----------


## Vinyadan

I think we have seen part of the process to become a demigod: one of the believers contacts the clergy of a pantheon and asks for the "godling" to be admitted. If the gods agree and the request isn't retired, the godling becomes a demigod. In the case of the Northern Gods, the chief god (Odin) seems to have a special interest in new applications... or maybe just in puppets. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html

We also know what gods need to survive and that new gods may not make it through world iterations. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html

----------


## Peelee

> I think we have seen part of the process to become a demigod: one of the believers contacts the clergy of a pantheon and asks for the "godling" to be admitted. If the gods agree and the request isn't retired, the godling becomes a demigod. In the case of the Northern Gods, the chief god (Odin) seems to have a special interest in new applications... or maybe just in puppets. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html


Odin's interest takes on a different meaning when we discover he is mentally compromised due to an older world's belief system. We don't know what Thor was saying, as he just declares the topic moot. So we don't actually know the process, I would argue.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Covered under the first possibility; regardless of why, it's still unimaginably rare, given how few there seem to be compared to how many worlds there have been. That does combat the assumption, I'll admit, but I don't find it particularly persuasive.


So what if its rare? There are people who won the lottery twice or got struck by lightning a dozen times (including lightning strikes on their graves).

Also I refer you to Vaarsuviuss assessment of the relationship between probability and drama.

----------


## Lord Torath

> ... much like calling Thor "Lord of Thunder"...


*God* of Thunder!  Seductive *GOD* of Thunder!  

 :Small Wink:

----------


## Peelee

> So what if its rare? There are people who won the lottery twice or got struck by lightning a dozen times (including lightning strikes on their graves).


"Rare things can happen" does not equate to "this specific rare thing has happened here." People have totally won the lottery twice. My neighbor Bob who just bought a Corvette probably did not win the lottery.



> Also I refer you to Vaarsuviuss assessment of the relationship between probability and drama.


And if there were any drama that revolved around demigods from prior worlds being able to survive to this world but so few had joined that there is still a relatively small pool but also are incredibly rare (arguably one of the rarest things to happen to a mortal in Stickworld) but more than one mortal ascended to godhood or demigodhood in this story, then yes, I would agree with you. But I would be flabbergasted if that was the case. "Mortals who rise to demigodhood being a rare case but also being able to be selected by pantheons when it suits them and they may or may not survive into other worlds once the Snarl breaks free but this specific one is so important the gods decided to incorporate him" is needlessly complex. "Mortals who rise to demigodhood don't survive the jump" is significantly simpler. Neither one has any more impact on the story than the other, neither one services drama more than the other, neither one is sheds any more relevant light on the story that the other, so why not pick the simpler one?

----------


## 137beth

> It's been discussed in the MitD thread, yes. Jury's still out on whether it is a clue or not though.
> Fortunately this thread isn't called "Things no one noticed before". It would probably be much shorter if that was the case.


A "Things no one noticed before" thread would have a bunch of people posting things that they hadn't noticed before, and that they also hadn't noticed anyone else had noticed :Small Smile: 




> I'm trying to find a source for this, but I got the sense that being part of a pantheon helps a lot with having the faith energy necessary to survive transition.
> 
> (FWIW, I think Dvalin ascended during this world's existence, and the elven gods predate it.)





> You may be thinking of this early strip.
> 
> Grey Wolf


You may also be thinking of Thor's words in the bottom-left panel of this more recent strip: "He hasn't been around long enough and hasn't had the followers of a whole pantheon believing in him."





> They could indeed. But then why are there so few demigods? Given the uncountable worlds that have existed, even if only one in a million got a mortal to become a demigod, that would still work out to thousands, if not millions, of potential demigods variously. The two simplest answers to this are:
> A.) apotheosis even to demigod state is so rare that it's practically unheard of - an answer which also assumes that Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves, who swore an oath to always abide by the will of the council.... wasn't, and didn't, which I am not a fan of - or
> 2.) demigods don't survive the transition to the new world.


That's a good point, and it makes the whole "Dvalin survived multiple worlds but doesn't remember doing so" even less likely, but still technically possible (as far as I can tell).

----------


## Squire Doodad

> That's a good point, and it makes the whole "Dvalin survived multiple worlds but doesn't remember doing so" even less likely, but still technically possible (as far as I can tell).


That said, there's a point where "still technically possible" isn't really relevant. "A one in a million chance is almost guaranteed" doesn't quite apply when there's no value in having it be applied.

----------


## b_jonas

> Not to mention he's the first king of the dwarves, so they presumably have a list going back to him.


We have lists of kings going back to fictional kings in the real world.

----------


## Peelee

> We have lists of kings going back to fictional kings in the real world.


We don't have creatures that can live thousands of years, or immortal beings, or magical spells that can reveal information, or divine beings, all of which can be used to verify the information is factual in the real world.

Stickworld does.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Nothing says those divine beings can't lie their beards off. Or that the data isn't baked into the world at creation.

----------


## Peelee

> Nothing says those divine beings can't lie their beards off. Or that the data isn't baked into the world at creation.


The Lawful ones must act lawfully, at the very least. And it's not like they're the only ones available; long-lived creatures, immortal creatures, and magical spells to verify also exist. Just as a quick example, Legend Lore is a core spell.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Well if that's the case, Durkon should've just asked for the full download on the Gates and Rifts the day after they heard about them from Soon.

Lawful doesn't mean honest. And Legend Lore is just going to give you the results baked in by metaphysics, which again brings us back to how the gods set it up when they created the world.

Really, "don't know" is about as good as we can do for anything where the possibilities stretch too far back. Which is kind of nice, as it gives us something to discuss while Rich polishes the next strip.

----------


## Peelee

> Well if that's the case, Durkon should've just asked for the full download on the Gates and Rifts the day after they heard about them from Soon.


Given how excited Thor was to toss the blackout rules aside for Minrah on the smallest bit of info she had, yeah, Durkon probably could have.

ETA: Further, there are more divine beings than just the gods, and those do not know about the Snarl and comms blackout policy and would have no reason to hamstring a question about royal lines of succession.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Well if that's the case, Durkon should've just asked for the full download on the Gates and Rifts the day after they heard about them from Soon.


Hmm...I wonder when Durkon figured out Thor doesn't respond to _commune_.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

> ETA: Further, there are more divine beings than just the gods, and those do not know about the Snarl and comms blackout policy and would have no reason to hamstring a question about royal lines of succession.


And they get mindwiped every reboot, so all they know is what was designed into the world when it was built. So if the gods build the world with a thousand year old line of kings of the dwarves starting with Dvalin, that's what they know.

----------


## Peelee

> And they get mindwiped every reboot, so all they know is what was designed into the world when it was built. So if the gods build the world with a thousand year old line of kings of the dwarves starting with Dvalin, that's what they know.


IIRC, they seem to know when the world started, so having a pre-history built in would be...weird, to say the least.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Everything about this is weird. And I love it. Most people's worldbuilding is pretty bland.

----------


## Peelee

> Everything about this is weird. And I love it. Most people's worldbuilding is pretty bland.


Totally fair. I also can't seem to find where I got the idea that the initial inhabitants knew they were the first ones, that just might be how I imagined the world right after creation.

----------


## Kastor

Today I realized that Durkon's middle name (Allotrope) is connected to his eventual vampirism.

Two states, made of the same base components, but two very different functions.

----------


## SlashDash

Just realized that - sorry can't post links from phone -

Tarquin's opinion on Bards in strip 821 was already mentioned waaaaaaay back in strip 50

----------


## Peelee

> Just realized that - sorry can't post links from phone -
> 
> Tarquin's opinion on Bards in strip 821 was already mentioned waaaaaaay back in strip 50


That's ok, I can help!

Tarquin's opinion on Bards in strip 821 was already mentioned waaaaaaay back in strip 50

----------


## Cicciograna

Thanks to SlashDash and Peelee I just noticed that the the strip numbering for strip 50 has a nice little comment on the number itself.

----------


## understatement

Here, Celia mentions Dorukan has disappeared (aka died) 6 months ago (which also matches SOD's time stamp). And here Celia mentions the Cloister disappears and reappears with Xykon, but doesn't mention any breaks in between. (and Xykon couldn't have casted it after Celia departed the Dungeon, since Azure City was able to scry on the Order).

So, is it inferrable that Xykon's maximum level is ~26 weeks, or 26-27th level? This number also matches some of Xykon's higher-end level calculations.

----------


## Quebbster

> Here, Celia mentions Dorukan has disappeared (aka died) 6 months ago (which also matches SOD's time stamp). And here Celia mentions the Cloister disappears and reappears with Xykon, but doesn't mention any breaks in between. (and Xykon couldn't have casted it after Celia departed the Dungeon, since Azure City was able to scry on the Order).
> 
> So, is it inferrable that Xykon's maximum level is ~26 weeks, or 26-27th level? This number also matches some of Xykon's higher-end level calculations.


Not really, Xykon moved into the dungeon pretty much immediately after killing Dorukan per Start of Darkness. Maybe it took a while before Celia noticed him and his minions.
Keep in mind that Celia's first appearance predates the Snarl plot, so any inconsistencies with later stories do not necessarily have a deeper meaning.

----------


## understatement

> Not really, Xykon moved into the dungeon pretty much immediately after killing Dorukan per Start of Darkness. Maybe it took a while before Celia noticed him and his minions.
> Keep in mind that Celia's first appearance predates the Snarl plot, so any inconsistencies with later stories do not necessarily have a deeper meaning.


EDIT: Whoops, I think I thought it out wrong. Assuming he doesn't renew the spell during his reign in the Dungeon, Xykon would be a minimum(?) of 26-27. 

At the same time, I can't find a reason why Xykon would wait, say, any interval of time after mastering an epic spell. Does the SRD mention a minimum amount of time a sorcerer can learn an epic spell?

----------


## Schroeswald

That doesn't give any clear level, we don't know if Xykon ever recast the spell or how long it took for Xykon to master, it just says that happened after the six month mark.

----------


## Dentarthur

> (stuff about the Cloister, ~26 weeks duration)


Where do you get the idea that the Cloister ended 26 weeks after Xykon's casting?

edit:




> EDIT: Whoops, I think I thought it out wrong. Assuming he doesn't renew the spell during his reign in the Dungeon, Xykon would be a minimum(?) of 26-27.


Where do you get the idea that the cloister *didn't* end at that time?

----------


## understatement

> Where do you get the idea that the Cloister ended 26 weeks after Xykon's casting?
> 
> Where do you get the idea that the cloister *didn't* end at that time?


I misspoke. I meant minimum.

Although I think the Cloister ended becase Azure City was able to scry on the wreckage. I don't know if Xykon's destruction means the spell ends or not. If not, then I revise back to the maximum of 26. Cloister definitely 'ended' by the time the Order is at Azure City, because Celia is able to be reached with a multiplanar call.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> I misspoke. I meant minimum.
> 
> Although I think the Cloister ended becase Azure City was able to scry on the wreckage. I don't know if Xykon's destruction means the spell ends or not. If not, then I revise back to the maximum of 26. Cloister definitely 'ended' by the time the Order is at Azure City, because Celia is able to be reached with a multiplanar call.


Given that it was described as suddenly vanishing and then reappearing when Xykon cast it (which suggests it completely vanished when Dorukan died...or that he died just a few weeks before he would have had to recast it, which seems unlikely), I'd assume Xykon's destruction ended Cloister as well.

----------


## Dentarthur

Yeah, the Cloister definitely ended with Xykon's destruction, as it had earlier with Dorukan's. There's no data to be gleaned here regarding anyone's caster level.

----------


## understatement

I assumed the spell would last, since Xykon is still technically 'alive'.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Technically Dorukan is still alive, since his soul is trapped in a small black gem instead of in the afterlife.

----------


## deltamire

Doing a re-read of Utterly Dwarfed, and I noticed on page 983 that Durkon refers to 'Thursday school'. The word Thursday is said to come from an Old English variant of 'Thor's Day' - so a bit of an equivalent of Sunday School, but showing how it's different to the Christian idea. It's a tiny little detail, but I think it's a fun worldbuilding aspect that highlights just how ingrained worship was in Durkon's life.

----------


## Werbaer

> Doing a re-read of Utterly Dwarfed, and I noticed on page 983 that Durkon refers to 'Thursday school'. The word Thursday is said to come from an Old English variant of 'Thor's Day' - so a bit of an equivalent of Sunday School, but showing how it's different to the Christian idea. It's a tiny little detail, but I think it's a fun worldbuilding aspect that highlights just how ingrained worship was in Durkon's life.


And the holy day of Odin worshippers is Wednesday (page 2, panel 2)

{scrubbed}

----------


## understatement

Phew, finally decided to buy a pdf of OOPCs. Yup, I'm 15 years late. I'll just comment on a few details here:

*Spoiler: OOPCs*
Show



*Redcloak's intro was surprisingly wordy.
*Bozz(a)k calling Haley "baby" was definitely a  :Small Yuk:  reaction. 
*Eugene's a lot more 'nicer' than what the comic shows him (being dead does that to you).
*The Blood Oath scenes match SOD!
*Roy and Durkon's friendship is eternal.
*Aarindarius uses Bixby's instead of Bugsby.
*Several of the OOTS avatars came from here -- or is it the other way around? 
*The Order really could've needed Buffy.
*Or Psteve.
*Elan's reaction to being hired is really damn sweet.

----------


## ti'esar

Eh, to judge from the Dungeon magazine continuity Psteve probably would have psucked.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Eh, to judge from the Dungeon magazine continuity Psteve probably would have psucked.


Also in the running were Peter, Pjoe, Penny, and Paul

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## b_jonas

The D&D 3.5 rules about potions say that a potion vial is a stoppered glass or ceramic bottle "no more than 1 inch wide and 2 inches high" that holds 1 ounce of liquid.  That's physically implausible.  Maybe that's part of why potions are magical.

----------


## Peelee

> The D&D 3.5 rules about potions say that a potion vial is a stoppered glass or ceramic bottle "no more than 1 inch wide and 2 inches high" that holds 1 ounce of liquid.  That's physically implausible.  Maybe that's part of why potions are magical.


The bottles are bigger on the inside.

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## danielxcutter

> The D&D 3.5 rules about potions say that a potion vial is a stoppered glass or ceramic bottle "no more than 1 inch wide and 2 inches high" that holds 1 ounce of liquid.  That's physically implausible.  Maybe that's part of why potions are magical.


...Explain.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> ...Explain.


Let's assume a configuration that maximises internal volume for those parameters: a cylindrical bottle (shaped like a soda can) two UoM tall and one UoM in diameter has an internal volume of 1.57 cubic UoM - cubic inches, in this case. Google tells me that an ounce of water occupies 1.8 cubic inches, because Americans hate themselves, presumably. Getting 1.8 unit of measures into a vessel with 1.57 units of internal volume tends towards the tricky side.

That said, maybe every magic potion is (eyeballing) 30% denser than water, and thus their ounce volume is lower than water's?

Grey Wolf

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## Peelee

Or, for a visual representation, this is bigger than a potion bottle:

*Spoiler: Top Diameter: 2 Inches. Bottom Diameter: 1 3/8 Inches. Height: 2 3/8 Inches. Capacity: 1.5 oz*
Show






> Google tells me that an ounce of water occupies 1.8 cubic inches, because Americans hate themselves


It's not that Americans hate themselves, it's that Americans hate other Americans. Take _that_, Americans!

----------


## Jasdoif

> Google tells me that an ounce of water occupies 1.8 cubic inches, because Americans hate themselves, presumably.


Aha!  So a (US) fluid ounce is the volume of an ounce of water, approx 1.805 cubic inches....

----------


## Peelee

> Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c
> 
> 
> Google tells me that an ounce of water occupies 1.8 cubic inches, because Americans hate themselves, presumably.
> 
> 
> Aha!  So a (US) fluid ounce is the volume of an ounce of water, approx 1.805 cubic inches....


So you're telling me than an ounce of water in US customary units is 1.80469 cubic inches? This would be so much better if I could easily find ridiculously more precise sigs. Alas.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

Meanwhile, in the rest of the world, 1 ml (of water) = 1 cubic cm. _By definition_. Making this kind of calculation so much easier.

Grey Wolf

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## Ron Miel

> ...Explain.





> Let's assume a configuration that maximises internal volume for those parameters: a cylindrical bottle (shaped like a soda can) two UoM tall and one UoM in diameter has an internal volume of 1.57 cubic UoM - cubic inches, in this case.


I'm not following that. A cylinder 2 inches high and 1 inch wide has a volume of 6.28 cubic inches, or 3.62 fluid ounces ... doesn't it? Even assuming thick walls and some space taken up by the stopper, there's still enough room for 1 fluid ounce of liquid.

----------


## Jasdoif

> A cylinder 2 inches high and 1 inch wide has a volume of 6.28 cubic inches....


One-inch wide is the _diameter_, the radius that goes into the formula for area (and volume) is _half_ of that.

----------


## Ron Miel

Yeah, it's many years since I did any geometry. I was multiplying 2x the circumference of the circle, rather than 2x the surface area. 

Still, a _square_ bottle 1x1x2 = 2 cubic inches, which is just over a fluid ounce.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> a _square_ bottle 1x1x2 = 2 cubic inches, which is just over a fluid ounce.


A square bottle is more than one inch wide - it is 1.41 inches at its widest point (the diagonals). The RAW given above is "no more than 1 inch wide".

Grey Wolf

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## Jasdoif

> So you're telling me than an ounce of water in US customary units is 1.80469 cubic inches?


Well....

A US gallon is defined as 231 cubic inches.There are four quarts in a gallon, so a quart is exactly 57.75 cubic inches.There are two pints in a quart, so a pint is exactly 28.875 cubic inches.There are two cups in a pint, so a cup is exactly 14.4375 cubic inches.There are eight fluid ounces in a cup, so a fluid ounce is exactly 1.8046875 cubic inches.




> Still, a _square_ bottle 1x1x2 = 2 cubic inches, which is just over a fluid ounce.


Yeah; I'm fairly sure the "do numbers that resemble sense" editing pass came up with something along those lines, and then the "make it sound cool" editing pass changed it to a cylindrical shape without considering what that did to the numbers; as much as the books love their whole numbers, they tend to round correctly.   Either that, or this was some really sad attempt to imply potions are denser than water.

----------


## Peelee

> Well....
> 
> A US gallon is defined as 231 cubic inches.There are four quarts in a gallon, so a quart is exactly 57.75 cubic inches.There are two pints in a quart, so a pint is exactly 28.875 cubic inches.There are two cups in a pint, so a cup is exactly 14.4375 cubic inches.There are eight fluid ounces in a cup, so a fluid ounce is exactly 1.8046875 cubic inches.






> Yeah; I'm fairly sure the "do numbers that resemble sense" editing pass came up with something along those lines, and then the "make it sound cool" editing pass changed it to a cylindrical shape without considering what that did to the numbers; as much as the books love their whole numbers, they tend to round correctly.   Either that, or this was some really sad attempt to imply potions are denser than water.


I kind of glossed over those numbers, so I never really thought of a potion bottle being effectively a shotglass; i always just kind of figured they were roughly the size drawn in OOTS, ish. Though for that small size, rectangular/boxy bottles would be much better, IMO.

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## Yendor

> Still, a _square_ bottle 1x1x2 = 2 cubic inches, which is just over a fluid ounce.


That doesn't leave much room for the sides. That would be ten square inches (including the top), which would be less than a fiftieth of an inch thick. That seems perilously fragile.

On the other hand, the goods and services section describes vials as being _three_ inches high. That sounds much more feasible.

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## Fyraltari

Im to lazy to try and figure out how much that makes in sensible units but it seems to me (based on the dragons graphic) that the people who wrote this werent thinking potion bottle but potion vial.




> It's not that Americans hate themselves, it's that Americans hate other Americans. Take _that_, Americans!


You Americans sure are a contentious people.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Roughly 5 centimeters by 2.5 centimeters.

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## Peelee

> You Americans sure are a contentious people.


You've just made an enemy for life.

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## Jasdoif

> Im to lazy to try and figure out how much that makes in sensible units


I hear that from a lot of metric proponents.

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## Peelee

> I hear that from a lot of metric proponents.


I'm not from South Central Los ****ing Angeles. I didn't come here to travel twenty miles per hour in a drive-by. I want a normal unit for a normal person.

No points to whoever gets the reference; your reward is the joy in having seen that movie. :Small Wink:

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## Fyraltari

> I hear that from a lot of metric proponents.


And your point is?

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## Jasdoif

> Originally Posted by Jasdoif
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Fyraltari
> ...


Pretty much what I posted: that I hear that from a lot of metric proponents, and that Google will convert a measure with negligible effort.  Google doesn't really advertise that it'll convert units straight from the search bar, both to _and_ from metric, and it's a real time saver.

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## Fyraltari

> Pretty much what I posted: that I hear that from a lot of metric proponents, and that Google will convert a measure with negligible effort.  Google doesn't really advertise that it'll convert units straight from the search bar, both to _and_ from metric, and it's a real time saver.


First off, in general **** Google.

Second off, I precisely said I was too lazy to look up what it mapped to. But, that's the core point here, Peelee had already given a visual representation so I didn't need to. Because frankly knowing the exact measurement would not have helped in the least.

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## Lord Torath

> It's not that Americans hate themselves, it's that Americans hate other Americans. Take _that_, Americans!


Specifically, the raw materials suppliers hate the Engineers and Scientists.

Or maybe we just hate being told what to do by non-Americans, regardless of how sensible it might be.  "You can't tell us what to do, SI!  Who cares that it cost us a multi-billion125-million-dollar Mars probe?  Who cares that Engineering and Science students want to tear out their hair when they start learning about derived units and unit conversions?  We don't!  So butt out, SI!"   :Small Annoyed:   :Small Mad:   :Small Mad:   :Small Furious:  :Small Furious:  :Small Furious:  :Small Furious:  :Small Furious:  :Small Furious:  :Small Furious:  :Small Furious:  :Small Furious:  :Small Furious:  :Small Furious:  :Small Furious:  :Small Furious:  :Small Furious:  :Small Furious:  :Small Furious:  :Small Furious: 

But I'm not bitter.

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## Peelee

> Specifically, the raw materials suppliers hate the Engineers and Scientists.
> 
> Or maybe we just hate being told what to do by non-Americans, regardless of how sensible it might be.  "You can't tell us what to do, SI!  Who cares that it cost us a multi-billion-dollar Mars probe?  Who cares that Engineering and Science students want to tear out their hair when they start learning about derived units and unit conversions?  We don't!  So butt out, SI!"     
> 
> But I'm not bitter.


Depends on the kind of engineer. US customary units are much easier to use when it comes to fractions, as they tend to be easily divisible by more numbers, so for most common engineering, it actually works quite well. Which is not to say I wouldn't mind if we swapped all over to metric and left USCU for the applications that actually use it effectively.

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## Jasdoif

> Specifically, the raw materials suppliers hate the Engineers and Scientists.
> 
> Or maybe we just hate being told what to do by non-Americans, regardless of how sensible it might be.  "You can't tell us what to do, SI!  Who cares that it cost us a multi-billion125-million-dollar Mars probe?  Who cares that Engineering and Science students want to tear out their hair when they start learning about derived units and unit conversions?  We don't!  So butt out, SI!"     
> 
> But I'm not bitter.


Personally, I think preferred units are a matter of culture, as well as of measure.  Units are as important as the number they're associated with, and the people using them; and unit conversion is cultural acceptance given technical form: The idea that other people's thoughts and words are no less valuable solely for being made along different lines than your own, even if you don't understand _why_ they're different; and with a little effort you can still understand what they're saying, and it's worthwhile.  Like you say, an eighth-of-a-billion-dollar Mars probe was lost because some people only looked at the numbers and just _assumed_ their units were the only one that could matter; and that was an incident that only cost dollars instead of lives.

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## Peelee

> Personally, I think preferred units are a matter of culture, as well as of measure.  Units are as important as the number they're associated with, and the people using them; and unit conversion is cultural acceptance given technical form: The idea that other people's thoughts and words are no less valuable solely for being made along different lines than your own, even if you don't understand _why_ they're different; and with a little effort you can still understand what they're saying, and it's worthwhile.  Like you say, an eighth-of-a-billion-dollar Mars probe was lost because some people only looked at the numbers and just _assumed_ their units were the only one that could matter; and that was an incident that only cost dollars instead of lives.


Aye. The Mars probe disaster wasn't a "nobody should use USCU, everyone should use metric" issue, it was a "write the dang units!" issue. Which almost every basic math and science class I'd ever taken were consistently and uniformly insistent on.

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## Lord Torath

There was a bill passed in 1975 to convert the US to the metric system, but someone replaced the "within 10 years" phrase with "voluntary conversion".  So nothing really happened.   :Small Mad:

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## Fyraltari

> Aye. The Mars probe disaster wasn't a "nobody should use USCU, everyone should use metric" issue, it was a "write the dang units!" issue. Which almost every basic math and science class I'd ever taken were consistently and uniformly insistent on.


Actually it was more a "comment your goddamn code!" issue.

EDIT:



> Personally, I think preferred units are a matter of culture, as well as of measure.  Units are as important as the number they're associated with, and the people using them; and unit conversion is cultural acceptance given technical form: The idea that other people's thoughts and words are no less valuable solely for being made along different lines than your own, even if you don't understand _why_ they're different; and with a little effort you can still understand what they're saying, and it's worthwhile.  Like you say, an eighth-of-a-billion-dollar Mars probe was lost because some people only looked at the numbers and just _assumed_ their units were the only one that could matter; and that was an incident that only cost dollars instead of lives.


The thing is systems having different origins doesn't mean some aren't objectively better made. For example, I think that the way we French say 70, 80 and 90 is stupid and we should use the Swiss and Belgian words for them because the one we use don't fit with the rest anymore. It would be hard to do because habits are hard to change, but if ther were a movement to do just that I'd support it.

Likewise the USCU are defined based on the SI units, most everybody else is already using the SI, whose mission statement is to belong to all of mankind as a whole rather than a single country and many people in the U.S. are already using the SI units especially in the fields of science because it eases communication and because theya re objectively easier to use for switching from length to volule to mass to force to energy or any other combination.

So really besides tradition is there a reason not to do complete the transition? because the longer it takes, the harder it will be to do most likely. I don't really care myself since I don't really have to deal with american units with anything resembling frequency, but I am curious.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Not even tradition is a good reason for not switching. Metric is so much f***ing simpler to use.

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## Fyraltari

> Not even tradition is a good reason


Tradition is a terrible reason for most* things really.


*the exception being as an excuse to party because there are no wrong reason to party.

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## b_jonas

I'm sorry.  I didn't think my comment would spawn this flamewar.  (If you wanted to know my opinion on this, see a recent post elsewhere.)

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## Grey_Wolf_c

> If you wanted to know my opinion on this,[/url] see a recent post elsewhere.
> [...]
> I dont understand why it is considered so backwards that Americans measure some lengths in inches and feet and yards and miles and some weights in ounces and pounds. Like, do a few different non-metric units make that much of a difference? Or is a unit especially bad just because its imperial?



It does make a difference, and it is not bad because it's imperial, it is bad because there is no unit continuity. For example, you are furbishing a road. You need to estimate how many safety guardrails you'll need. Each one is about, say, 60 inches long. The road is 150 miles long. How many will you need? Heck if anyone can tell. But if the road is 150 km long, and each guardrail is 60 cm long, then it is practically trivial. (this is an actual situation I was confronted with, except with gas pipelines. A bad conversion was giving the wrong numbers, but because there is an absurd number of inches to a miles, no-one knew the values were off until I converted everything to metric, and spotted that something was not in the ballpark).

Or, in my everyday life rather than professional one: I was trying to chlorinate my child's pool. If it is 80 cm to the side, and I filled it 25 cm deep, the volume in litres is simple enough, and thus the amount of chlorine that needs to go in. But if you measured it in inches (and let's say that it's a bigger one, and it is 80 inches to the side and 25 inches deep so that it's not the numbers that are the issue)... can any American even calculate how many gallons of water there are? Or do they need to go running to a private corporation to do their basic math for them? And this is not a place where you want to be off - chlorine is only safe between 2 and 5 parts per million. If you put in the wrong number of (checks)... quarter of teaspoons (!?) you could easily cause serious damage. And good luck to you if it turns out you need 3.28 quarters of teaspoon.

I don't give a damn if the base value is based on the size of the Earth or some dead king's shoe size. I care that I can trivially convert between lengths and volumes, and scale up and down without having to depend on having an Internet connection.

Grey Wolf

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## Peelee

> can any American even calculate how many gallons of water there are? Or do they need to go running to a private corporation to do their basic math for them?


Oh, don't worry, they offer those conversions for a nice, flat fee! Or, well, they used to. Now they've moved to the subscription model. Turns out they can just demand money on a constant basis instead of only once. Innovation!

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## jwhouk

So essentially potions are bottles of Five Hour Energy.

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## b_jonas

Grey_Wolf: one commenter in this thread just gave 4 times the real volume for the cylinder, another commenter offered a cone that's two inches wide on its wider side as a shape that's no wider than one inch.  Most people couldn't do the calculations that you mention anyway.  I'm not saying that Americans are stupid or that their educations are bad, most Europeans who grew up here with the metric system also can't do those calculations, and will commit stupid mistakes.  

I don't think uses inches makes it that much weird.  I can remember that an inch is 0.0254 meters, a foot is 0.305 meters, and an ounce is usually either 0.028 liters or 0.028 kilograms, and can do calculations in my head with them, and the people who have to do these calculations and actually live in a place where they have to use these units are even more familiar with them.  Most calculations aren't as simple as the ones you've picked, and you'll have to remember similar arbitrary constants for them anyway.  In practice, I have to remember that my handspan is 0.023 meters long and a credit card is almost 0.10 meter long and an A4 paper is 0.279 meter times 0.210 meters long, because these are the ones I actually use for measuring distances because they're faster than getting a centimeter scale, even though I actually carry a centimeter scale in my backpack.  I also have to remember approximately how much real money euros, US dollars, british pounds, swedish crowns are worth in real money (and ideal canadian dollars and australian dollars too, because some far east sellers use those on ebay), and those conversions even keep changing.  Heck, I have to do conversions of time units and I'm supposed to know the numeric values for all the month names, and I make mistakes with the latter ones all the time, especially for August.  The arbitrary constants that I need for eyeballing calculations aren't much better than what Americans need with their units.

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## Peelee

> Grey_Wolf: one commenter in this thread just gave 4 times the real volume for the cylinder, another commenter offered a cone that's two inches wide on its wider side as a shape that's no wider than one inch.


A.) Truncated cone, if we're going to be semantic about things.
2.) Said truncated cone had the measurements clearly listed before you could even see it, and in addition, was explicitly called out as larger than a potion bottle. The example was intended as a reference point, something most people would be familiar with even if they do not use it, to help visualize how small a potion bottle would be, since it is even smaller than that (which, again, us why the measurements were clearly called out in advance).

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## Grey_Wolf_c

> Grey_Wolf: one commenter in this thread just gave 4 times the real volume for the cylinder, another commenter offered a cone that's two inches wide on its wider side as a shape that's no wider than one inch.  Most people couldn't do the calculations that you mention anyway.  I'm not saying that Americans are stupid or that their educations are bad, most Europeans who grew up here with the metric system also can't do those calculations, and will commit stupid mistakes.


Let's say those are universal mistakes (I disagree, but I'll grant you the point because I don't care). My point was that if you use metric, you realise that you made a mistake so much easier because the numbers convert and scale up so well. And therefore it is one less point where errors can occur. A metric user might still forget to divide the diameter by two when calculating the area of a circle, but they are not going to, say, transpose the digits of the conversion factor between cm3 and litres because there aren't any digits to transpose. The one mistake that can be made due to the unit of measurement in metric is the number of 0s, and the error size when that happens is literally in the orders of magnitude scale, and thus trivially noticeable.

Grey Wolf

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## Squire Doodad

> Let's say those are universal mistakes (I disagree, but I'll grant you the point because I don't care). My point was that if you use metric, you realise that you made a mistake so much easier because the numbers convert and scale up so well. And therefore it is one less point where errors can occur. A metric user might still forget to divide the diameter by two when calculating the area of a circle, but they are not going to, say, transpose the digits of the conversion factor between cm3 and litres because there aren't any digits to transpose. The one mistake that can be made due to the unit of measurement in metric is the number of 0s, and the error size when that happens is literally in the orders of magnitude scale, and thus trivially noticeable.
> 
> Grey Wolf


It _is_ easier to notice you have spare zeroes over a 52.80 multiplier...

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## b_jonas

> 2.) and in addition, was explicitly called out as larger than a potion bottle. The example was intended as a reference point, something most people would be familiar with even if they do not use it, to help visualize how small a potion bottle would be, since it is even smaller than that (which, again, us why the measurements were clearly called out in advance).


Sorry, you're right.  I misread your post.  It did clearly say "this is bigger than a potion bottle".

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## Vinyadan

> The thing is systems having different origins doesn't mean some aren't objectively better made. For example, I think that the way we French say 70, 80 and 90 is stupid and we should use the Swiss and Belgian words for them because the one we use don't fit with the rest anymore. It would be hard to do because habits are hard to change, but if ther were a movement to do just that I'd support it.


This reminds me of the Belgian druid Septantesix, who creates an invulnerability potion that lets you use your hands to pull fries out of boiling oil.

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## danielxcutter

> This reminds me of the Belgian druid Septantesix, who creates an invulnerability potion that lets you use your hands to pull fries out of boiling oil.


...Im sorry WHAT.

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## Fyraltari

> This reminds me of the Belgian druid Septantesix, who creates an invulnerability potion that lets you use your hands to pull fries out of boiling oil.


And so, something good came out of htis whole discussion.

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## Ron Miel

> ...Im sorry WHAT.


It's a reference to the Asterix books. Specifically Asterix and the Goths, IIRC.

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## Fyraltari

> ...Im sorry WHAT.


Septantesix is so named because Belgians say 70 "septante six" while the French say (confusingly enough) "soixante-seize".

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## Grey_Wolf_c

... And also Belgium is the origin of what Americans call "French fries"*, so in Asterix comics, they are forever dunking potatoes in oil.

(If you are about to objet about potatoes not existing in Europe until 1500 years later, be aware that Asterix is unconcerned with your complaints about anachronisms)

ETA: how many posters does it take to explain an Asterix joke? Three, as it turns out.

Grey Wolf

* Wikipedia claims this is "disputed", FWIW

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## Peelee

> ... And also Belgium is the origin of what Americans call "French fries"*
> 
> * Wikipedia claims this is "disputed", FWIW


Not really, the "freedom fries" thing never caught on. HEYO!

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## Fyraltari

> ... And also Belgium is the origin of what Americans call "French fries"*, so in Asterix comics, they are forever dunking potatoes in oil.
> 
> (If you are about to objet about potatoes not existing in Europe until 1500 years later, be aware that Asterix is unconcerned with your complaints about anachronisms)
> 
> ETA: how many posters does it take to explain an Asterix joke? Three, as it turns out.
> 
> Grey Wolf
> 
> * Wikipedia claims this is "disputed", FWIW


Wether or not they invented it, the Belgians stereotypically eat more of those than we do.

Also potato in French is pomme de terre (ground apple) so French fries are often called pommes frites i.e. fried apples. In Astérix It is basically stated that they are frying slices of regular apples since they dont have potatoes yet, much like the britons are drinking hot water with milk since they have no tea yet.

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## Ron Miel

> ... And also Belgium is the origin of what Americans call "French fries"*, so in Asterix comics, they are forever dunking potatoes in oil.
> 
> (If you are about to objet about potatoes not existing in Europe until 1500 years later, be aware that Asterix is unconcerned with your complaints about anachronisms)


I don't know about "forever", I can only think of two instances, and in neither case was it specifically identified as potatoes. At least it wasn't in the British translations. In Asterix and the Goths, a druid is shown pulling fried food out of boiling oil with his bare hands. In Asterix in Belgium someone invents "fried chipped root vegetables."

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## Ron Miel

> . In Astérix It is basically stated that they are frying slices of regular apples


Is that in the original French? I don't remember it in the British translation.

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## rostvoid

> Is that in the original French? I don't remember it in the British translation.


I'm sure it is in the french version. I remember the Belgian guy who see a Roman soldier faint ("tomber dans les pommes") while boiling oil. That when he thought it may be a good idea.
I 'm not sure it appears in the translated comics since I don't see any way to translate the joke.

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## deltamire

> I'm sure it is in the french version. I remember the Belgian guy who see a Roman soldier faint ("tomber dans les pommes") while boiling oil. That when he thought it may be a good idea.
> I 'm not sure it appears in the translated comics since I don't see any way to translate the joke.


The British (purchased in Ireland, but almost all of our international books share the same text with them anyhow) version of _Asterix in Belgium's_ joke is that he talks about how a throwaway roman boiling oil is a 'mere vegetable rooted to the spot', and how he's got a chip on his shoulder. The combination of 'chips', 'root vegetables' and 'boiled in oil' all kind of spirals from there. The apple part must have gotten lost in translation, because we don't have the whole 'apples of the earth' connection between potatoes and apples.

(Jesus, looking through my old copy, these comics were just very enthusiastic about wordplay and puns. Does that carry on from the original French, or was it added post-translation?)

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## danielxcutter

> The British (purchased in Ireland, but almost all of our international books share the same text with them anyhow) version of _Asterix in Belgium's_ joke is that he talks about how a throwaway roman boiling oil is a 'mere vegetable rooted to the spot', and how he's got a chip on his shoulder. The combination of 'chips', 'root vegetables' and 'boiled in oil' all kind of spirals from there. The apple part must have gotten lost in translation, because we don't have the whole 'apples of the earth' connection between potatoes and apples.
> 
> (Jesus, looking through my old copy, these comics were just very enthusiastic about wordplay and puns. Does that carry on from the original French, or was it added post-translation?)


Id imagine both to some extent, really. A lot of French puns probably dont work in other languages, but its still possible to make puns in other languages that work in the situation (looking at you, Korean translation for Undertale) and the jokes that dont rely on French probably work just fine.

----------


## rostvoid

> (Jesus, looking through my old copy, these comics were just very enthusiastic about wordplay and puns. Does that carry on from the original French, or was it added post-translation?)


There is clearly a lot of puns in the French.



> Id imagine both to some extent, really. A lot of French puns probably dont work in other languages, but its still possible to make puns in other languages that work in the situation (looking at you, Korean translation for Undertale) and the jokes that dont rely on French probably work just fine.


That's the whole point of a good translation. But of course one can't translate all the subtleties of a puns...
What about Undertale ?

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## Fyraltari

> (Jesus, looking through my old copy, these comics were just very enthusiastic about wordplay and puns. Does that carry on from the original French, or was it added post-translation?)


Oh god, you have no idea. Goscinny (the author) is all about puns, sometimes the setup for a pun takes almost the entire album (like the grognards joke from _Astérix in Corsica_).
That said, _Iznogoud_ is the place where he really lets loose, it's hard to find a panel without a pun somewhere.

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## danielxcutter

> There is clearly a lot of puns in the French.
> 
> That's the whole point of a good translation. But of course one can't translate all the subtleties of a puns...
> What about Undertale ?


A lot of Sans bone puns translate pretty well into Korean. Go figure.

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## b_jonas

> what Americans call "French fries"*
> 
> * Wikipedia claims this is "disputed", FWIW


Not surprising.  As far as I understand, the American call it "fries", the British just call them "chips", and the European have this stereotypical misconception that the American have to call them "French fries" because they are too dumb to understand what "chips" or "Pommes" means.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Not surprising.  As far as I understand, the American call it "fries", the British just call them "chips", and the European have this stereotypical misconception that the American have to call them "French fries" because they are too dumb to understand what "chips" or "Pommes" means.


I still hear them called french fries, but it's nearly always shortened to just "fries", yes.

Potato chips, meanwhile are thin slices of potato that are fried (which I think are called "crisps" in British English).  Tortilla chips are kind of similar in being thin, starch-based, and a common base for dips; but otherwise quite different, so "potato" doesn't get dropped as often for potato chips.

----------


## b_jonas

> Potato chips, meanwhile are thin slices of potato that are fried (which I think are called "crisps" in British English).


That's what Americans call "chips", not what the British call "chips".  The British call these "crisps" because the word "chips" already has a pretty useful meaning.

----------


## Jasdoif

> That's what Americans call "chips", not what the British call "chips".


Yes, that's what we call "chips"; which is why I called them "chips".




> The British call these "crisps" because the word "chips" already has a pretty useful meaning.


I think it's the same thing here; we call that other variety of potato product "fries" because "chips" already has a different meaning for us.

Edit to add:  Apparently, "french fries" in particular stems from American soldiers in Belgium, who nicknamed them "french fries" because the official language of the Belgian army at the time was French....and I imagine for the alliterative value of both words beginning with the same "fr" sound, which I _also_ imagine is why it persists.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> Not surprising.  As far as I understand, the American call it "fries", the British just call them "chips", and the European have this stereotypical misconception that the American have to call them "French fries" because they are too dumb to understand what "chips" or "Pommes" means.


What's disputed is whether they are a French of Dutch invention. The naming of it is not in dispute, Peelee's joke aside.

Grey Wolf

----------


## danielxcutter

Whats not disputed is that theyre yummy.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Whats not disputed is that theyre yummy.


Usually!  The occasional overly mild practically flavorless potato intended to be dipped into a superior sauce is almost an exception, but texture is important.  The best fries are good on their own _and_ can be improved with a sauce, of course.

Personally, I think fries pale next to the jojo; but that's a much more specialized potato product than fries, which can go alongside a much wider range of meals.

----------


## danielxcutter

> Usually!  The occasional overly mild practically flavorless potato intended to be dipped into a superior sauce is almost an exception, but texture is important.  The best fries are good on their own _and_ can be improved with a sauce, of course.
> 
> Personally, I think fries pale next to the jojo; but that's a much more specialized potato product than fries, which can go alongside a much wider range of meals.


That name is *quite* the target for memes, although since Ive never had them I cant say if it MUDAMUDAs the typical fry into oblivion myself.

----------


## snowblizz

> What's disputed is whether they are a French of Dutch invention.
> 
> Grey Wolf


So they decided to split the difference and we all were told fries were a Belgian invention? #controversialhistoricaljoke



Speaking of, that particular fries joke in Asterix was also in the Swedish translation but sort of adapted. In Swedish they are known as pommes frites as well, despite noone actually knowing pommes are apples or that they refer to "earth apples" in French. The joke was something along the lines "Romans fell down, pom! pom! pom!" and later on they drag in boiling oil somewhere for an offhand request by one of the Belgian Gauls for oilfried something or other.

They keep going on about oysters as well, the pirates drag along a piece of their sunken ship with oysters on. That joke didn't translate well because I never understood the connection.


Generally the translations I've read have kept as much wordplay as possible though sometimes they miss the wider point and there's only a lame pun. It depends ofc on how much effort the translator put into it.

----------


## Fyraltari

> They keep going on about oysters as well, the pirates drag along a piece of their sunken ship with oysters on. That joke didn't translate well because I never understood the connection.


In French it's mussels on the plank. Because mussels with fries is a traditional northern France/Belgian dish.

----------


## snowblizz

> In French it's mussels on the plank. Because mussels with fries is a traditional northern France/Belgian dish.


Ah right, ok that seems to be what they were trying to go for then. Now you mention it mussels (I was probably remembering it wrong) and fries was mentioned. I guess they are sorta going for a "this is how it came to be" kind of "origin story" for the dish.

Little Mannekin who had to pee was a more easily understood reference.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Ah right, ok that seems to be what they were trying to go for then. Now you mention it mussels (I was probably remembering it wrong) and fries was mentioned. I guess they are sorta going for a "this is how it came to be" kind of "origin story" for the dish.


Exactly.




> Little Mannekin who had to pee was a more easily understood reference.


Well it's kind of an obvious one.

Say, the whole battle scene at the end is an obvious spoof of Hugo's _Waterloo_ (who is also referenced some other times) I wonder how they translated that.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> Say, the whole battle scene at the end is an obvious spoof of Hugo's _Waterloo_ (who is also referenced some other times) I wonder how they translated that.


I don't recall that allusion but, having read Asterix in Spanish, French and English (what can I say, I found it the easiest thing to practice reading foreign languages with), I have to say that they are amazingly translated, given how hard the original material is. Pratchett, for example, fared significantly worse (into Spanish - never tried it in French).

Grey Wolf

----------


## Quebbster

> I don't recall that allusion but, having read Asterix in Spanish, French and English (what can I say, I found it the easiest thing to practice reading foreign languages with), I have to say that they are amazingly translated, given how hard the original material is. Pratchett, for example, fared significantly worse (into Spanish - never tried it in French).
> 
> Grey Wolf


I have read a few in English and a handful in Danish besides Swedish and it's fascinating to see what details differ. The kid wants to take French classes next semester so I look forward to when he can explain all the French jokes to me. 
And agreed about Pratchett. In the Swedish translation of Soul Music there is even a footnote where the translator says "Allright, I give up" and then explain the joke about Imp y Celyn.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I don't recall that allusion but, having read Asterix in Spanish, French and English (what can I say, I found it the easiest thing to practice reading foreign languages with), I have to say that they are amazingly translated, given how hard the original material is. Pratchett, for example, fared significantly worse (into Spanish - never tried it in French).
> 
> Grey Wolf


Oh man, Pratchett's translation in French is ****ing great. The translator got an award for it and really deserved it. Not all jokes could be saved but a huge lot were and some were added (especially the running gag of DEATH's grammatical gender*) and some references were changed (all the welsh puns in _Soul Music_ were turned into Breton puns, the name of the new Watch HQ became a reference to the seat of Paris Homicid Police Division, and so on). It also manages to read very close to the original style.

*See "la Mort" is feminine because most abstract things are but the character is male, so he is treated as masculine in sentences. Each book has an additional footnote the first time this happens and generallymake a joke (one who struck me was a pun on "necessary evil" become "necessary male" and one wondering how you don't know this by book XXXVIII. And there's this in Shepherd's crown:
*Spoiler*
Show

"Alright, we're telling you again that DEATH is male. But this is the last time!"



Made me cry.

----------


## Ron Miel

> Say, the whole battle scene at the end is an obvious spoof of Hugo's _Waterloo_ (who is also referenced some other times) I wonder how they translated that.


In the British translation it used lines from Byron's The Eve of Waterloo.

----------


## Fyraltari

> In the British translation it used lines from Byron's The Eve of Waterloo.


That makes perfect sense.

----------


## Kastor

Minrah Elle Shaleshoe's name when spoken aloud is just Mineral Shaleshoe

----------


## deltamire

The two separate flashbacks of Durkon getting chucked out of his home - one posted in 2006, the other far later in 2015 - are delightfully consistent with each other, down to the beard colours and armour of the dwarves doing said chucking, the snow on the ground, and even the style of the throw-out. It's also a fantastic representation of the sheer improvement the OOTS style has had in the ensuing years between them. It probably just took looking back to check that they were the same when drawing 1007, but Art Consistency always gets a smile from me.

I'm sure someone has posted this before in this very iteration of the thread, but I wanted to mention it anyhow.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The two separate flashbacks of Durkon getting chucked out of his home - one posted in 2006, the other far later in 2015 - are delightfully consistent with each other, down to the beard colours and armour of the dwarves doing said chucking, the snow on the ground, and even the style of the throw-out. It's also a fantastic representation of the sheer improvement the OOTS style has had in the ensuing years between them. It probably just took looking back to check that they were the same when drawing 1007, but Art Consistency always gets a smile from me.
> 
> I'm sure someone has posted this before in this very iteration of the thread, but I wanted to mention it anyhow.


Fake, Durkons head was up the first time and down the second, 0/10, no continuity, unsubscribe.

 :Small Tongue:

----------


## deltamire

> Fake, Durkons head was up the first time and down the second, 0/10, no continuity, unsubscribe.


Ah, see, that's actually all explained in comic. The 2015 version shows Durkon nearing the end of his arc (both in terms of velocity and in-comic AMIRITE) while the 2006 one is near the start, after just being thrown. It is perfectly logical and completely reasonable to assume that he had been yeeted hard enough to cause him to spin in the air. Like a golfball with heavy armour proficiency.

----------


## snowblizz

> Say, the whole battle scene at the end is an obvious spoof of Hugo's _Waterloo_ (who is also referenced some other times) I wonder how they translated that.


It's been too long since I read the Swedish translation (at around 18 years of age I stopped going to the local library's childrens' section, nowadays I pretend to be borrowing books for kids I don't have). And back when I read I wouldn't have known to compare it to Hugo or Byron. Ok I probably still wouldn't. In Swedish there would not be something similar to refrence I think. I must admit I might have to borrow all the Asterix during summer to have a go with the old books. If they still got them, much to my annoyance they removed the old Lucky Lukes and replaced them with combination volume series (if that makes sense) and it's not complete. I also found they Gaston but similarly waiting for them to release the new transaltion/compialtion volumes.  

I remember a joke about a Roman officer going on about how the Guard would not surrender and the guard telling him that they were actually very much prepared to do so, and in fact w ellin the process of so doing thankyouverymuch. I believe there were some "winged words"* spoken by the officer at this point. *That is a Swedish term meaning famous quotations effectively. Alea Iacta Est, Veni Vidi Vici and so used often in the Asterix context.

Speaking of changes, I noticed when reading the new English translations they actually edited the pictures to remove the michelin man in of the albums and replace him with a small gaulish warrior. I guess to spare us the hidden advertisement.

Speaking of translations, sometimes authors actually do consider this. Don Rosa (famous Donald Duck comic writer for those who didn't know) discusses it in one of his preambles to an old story he wrote back when he didn't know there was an international market for DD comics. His early stories and this one in particular relies heavily on punning on various language puns, particulary egregiously on geology in the one am thinking of. He goes on for abit trying to explain the jokes, and then eventually concludes there's no point to that excersie, wishes the translator good luck, apologieses and hopes we get some fun original jokes instead. At another point he brings up how after starting to work "internationally" ie for European distributors he started removing pun jokes and adapting the format a bit so translators could fit the text better into the comics. To paraphrase, he would make textbubbles fit English, then make them a bit bigger, and finally add an entire line of space so it could be translated into Finnish "with it's impossibly long words").

----------


## Quebbster

> It's been too long since I read the Swedish translation (at around 18 years of age I stopped going to the local library's childrens' section, nowadays I pretend to be borrowing books for kids I don't have). And back when I read I wouldn't have known to compare it to Hugo or Byron. Ok I probably still wouldn't. In Swedish there would not be something similar to refrence I think. I must admit I might have to borrow all the Asterix during summer to have a go with the old books. If they still got them, much to my annoyance they removed the old Lucky Lukes and replaced them with combination volume series (if that makes sense) and it's not complete. I also found they Gaston but similarly waiting for them to release the new transaltion/compialtion volumes.  
> 
> I remember a joke about a Roman officer going on about how the Guard would not surrender and the guard telling him that they were actually very much prepared to do so, and in fact w ellin the process of so doing thankyouverymuch. I believe there were some "winged words"* spoken by the officer at this point. *That is a Swedish term meaning famous quotations effectively. Alea Iacta Est, Veni Vidi Vici and so used often in the Asterix context.
> 
> Speaking of changes, I noticed when reading the new English translations they actually edited the pictures to remove the michelin man in of the albums and replace him with a small gaulish warrior. I guess to spare us the hidden advertisement.
> 
> Speaking of translations, sometimes authors actually do consider this. Don Rosa (famous Donald Duck comic writer for those who didn't know) discusses it in one of his preambles to an old story he wrote back when he didn't know there was an international market for DD comics. His early stories and this one in particular relies heavily on punning on various language puns, particulary egregiously on geology in the one am thinking of. He goes on for abit trying to explain the jokes, and then eventually concludes there's no point to that excersie, wishes the translator good luck, apologieses and hopes we get some fun original jokes instead. At another point he brings up how after starting to work "internationally" ie for European distributors he started removing pun jokes and adapting the format a bit so translators could fit the text better into the comics. To paraphrase, he would make textbubbles fit English, then make them a bit bigger, and finally add an entire line of space so it could be translated into Finnish "with it's impossibly long words").


The collected editions of Asterix arequite good, lots of explanations of the various in-jokes. Not quite as good as the latest editions of the Adventures of Tintin though, they really go into a lot of detail there.
Regarding the Michelin Man, the gaulish warrior is/was apparently the mascot of a french oil company and was replaced with a more familiar mascot in certain international editions. More info here.
The Don Rosa commentary is quite good too. I didn't mind all the rock jokes when I first read it so I think the translator did quite a good job with the translation.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I remember a joke about a Roman officer going on about how the Guard would not surrender and the guard telling him that they were actually very much prepared to do so, and in fact w ellin the process of so doing thankyouverymuch. I believe there were some "winged words"* spoken by the officer at this point. *That is a Swedish term meaning famous quotations effectively. Alea Iacta Est, Veni Vidi Vici and so used often in the Asterix context.


One of the most oft-repeated anecdotes of Waterloo (at least in France) is the last stand of the Old Guard, whose leader, General Cambronne was ordered by the British to surrender and replied the Guard dies, but does not surrender, or alternatively **** which is sometimes called Cambronnes word. This is referenced by Hugos poem.

However, that was most likely fabricated by newspaper looking for drama as Cambronne did survive the battle and denied having ever said either thing, even pointing out that I did not die and did surrender.

----------


## Ron Miel

> and replied  ...  **** which is sometimes called Cambronnes word.


Noisettes?

----------


## deltamire

The boot the lawyers use in 280 is the same one Eugene uses in 525 to literally punt Roy out of the afterlife. An aftereffect of an art style that benefits from objects looking similar, or a complex web of shared information between Eugene and the Lawyers, inspired by when Eugene used his illustrations to pretend to be a being of pure law and goodness at the trial they're involved in? A secret lost to the ages, indeed.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Noisettes?


Hahaha!

Nope.

----------


## snowblizz

> One of the most oft-repeated anecdotes of Waterloo (at least in France) is the last stand of the Old Guard, whose leader, General Cambronne was ordered by the British to surrender and replied the Guard dies, but does not surrender, or alternatively **** which is sometimes called Cambronnes word. This is referenced by Hugos poem.
> 
> However, that was most likely fabricated by newspaper looking for drama as Cambronne did survive the battle and denied having ever said either thing, even pointing out that I did not die and did surrender.


Oh. Well you know what. That is probably *exactly* what the Swedish translation uses. I do know I sorta understood they were in some sense alluding to Waterloo but I never could exactly place it. The Guard dies, but it does not surrender. Yea, that rings so many bells even the hunchback of Notre Dame would be deafened.





> The collected editions of Asterix arequite good, lots of explanations of the various in-jokes. Not quite as good as the latest editions of the Adventures of Tintin though, they really go into a lot of detail there.
> Regarding the Michelin Man, the gaulish warrior is/was apparently the mascot of a french oil company and was replaced with a more familiar mascot in certain international editions. More info here.
> The Don Rosa commentary is quite good too. I didn't mind all the rock jokes when I first read it so I think the translator did quite a good job with the translation.


That link was interesintg. So in other words the Swedish translation I read in my youth was the unedited one. Though I have to say it looked like someone had messed with the picture just there in the copy I read. So then I mistakenly figured the Michelin man was the original when I saw the English version! The twists and plots! Stuff like this is why I'd like to get my hands on these collection annotated editions.

Funnily enough I've been reading a complete edition (some in progress of being published/translated into my language now) of Spirou, Gaston and Lucky Luke respectively. I saw there was a similar set of books for Tintin but I didn't go for it. Now I must keep an eye out for Asterix. Would love to read that with backstories etc attached. Some of these are quite recent efforts of translation into Swedish so I guess may have to wait. The Gaston series is only 3 volumes in so far, latest one had arrived at the library in april.
I'm worried they are going to be splitting the collection though. I found several volumes of newly made collection of Carl Bark's works and that has been divvied up among several local branch libraries.

----------


## LadyEowyn

EDIT: Wrong thread

----------


## snowblizz

> EDIT: Wrong thread


Yea, it's not the MitD thread.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Funnily enough I've been reading a complete edition (some in progress of being published/translated into my language now) of Spirou, Gaston and Lucky Luke respectively. I saw there was a similar set of books for Tintin but I didn't go for it. Now I must keep an eye out for Asterix. Would love to read that with backstories etc attached.


Another interesting bit from _Astérix in Belgium_ at one point towards the end it starts raining and the rain doesnt stop until the final panel (the traditional banquet). This is because these are the panels Uderzo worked on after the death of Goscinny.

In the last panel you can see a sad-looking rabbit walking away from the party. This is because Goscinnys wife used a rabbit-based nickname for him.

----------


## Schroeswald

> EDIT: Wrong thread





> Yea, it's not the MitD thread.


Wait, did LadyEowyn actually send a message to this thread instead of the MitD thread? I love it.

----------


## TheWombatOfDoom

> Wait, did LadyEowyn actually send a message to this thread instead of the MitD thread? I love it.


My one fear about the title has been confirmed.  But also, it seems right on the money for Things You Never Noticed, so yeah...

----------


## snowblizz

> Wait, did LadyEowyn actually send a message to this thread instead of the MitD thread? I love it.





> My one fear about the title has been confirmed.  But also, it seems right on the money for Things You Never Noticed, so yeah...


Actually... there's no proof for that. I was making a joke referring our thread title mainly. I saw the "Wrong Thread" edit text only and couldn't help myself from making the joke. Because I thought it'd be hilarious if indeed that was the case.

Update: Well I did what I was going to, but didn't yesterday (as I couldn't find it ironically enough) and check the MitD thread. And yes 2 minutes later LadyEowyn posted in the actual MitD thread. I'd call that confirmation.

The fact it actually happened makes the thread titel worth it just on that alone.

 :Elan: I'm a future psychic! :Elan:

----------


## Wizard_Lizard

To be fair I've almost been caught out on the thread name.

----------


## Neponde

I'm sure this has been noted before, but I never realized Kudzu has a beard.

----------


## Quebbster

I don't think I noticed Jirix backing away from Xykon in the first panel of the second page. I assume it's to avoid Xykon's paralyzing touch.

----------


## Ron Miel

I think that if you're standing close to someone, and they suddenly fling out their arm, you are likely to flinch. Even if the don't have a paralysing touch. 

How does paralysing touch work, anyway? Is it automatic, i.e. anyone Xykon touches is paralysed, or does he have to deliberately activate it? To put it another way, can he touch someone without paralysing them?

----------


## Vinyadan

> I think that if you're standing close to someone, and they suddenly fling out their arm, you are likely to flinch. Even if the don't have a paralysing touch. 
> 
> How does paralysing touch work, anyway? Is it automatic, i.e. anyone Xykon touches is paralysed, or does he have to deliberately activate it? *To put it another way, can he touch someone without paralysing them?*


Well yea,

*Spoiler: SOD*
Show

He can kill them.

----------


## LadyEowyn

> Wait, did LadyEowyn actually send a message to this thread instead of the MitD thread? I love it.


*sigh* I totally did.

In fairness, you put MITD in the thread name, its an easy mistake to make in a hurry!

----------


## Fyraltari

> I think that if you're standing close to someone, and they suddenly fling out their arm, you are likely to flinch. Even if the don't have a paralysing touch. 
> 
> How does paralysing touch work, anyway? Is it automatic, i.e. anyone Xykon touches is paralysed, or does he have to deliberately activate it? To put it another way, can he touch someone without paralysing them?


Yes.

EDIT: unrelated. I never noticed that panel 8 sort of came true.

----------


## bibliophile20

Thing I Never Noticed: The Treeslayers are riding a dire woodpecker and a dire beaver--i.e. animals that consume trees.

----------


## TheWombatOfDoom

> Thing I Never Noticed: The Treeslayers are riding a dire woodpecker and a dire beaver--i.e. animals that consume trees.


OH MAN!  THATS a GREAT detail...wow, never noticed that either.

----------


## danielxcutter

Just noticed that Lauren is smiling when Miron mentions the bidet her daughter installed in the Weeping Kings palace.

----------


## Gift Jeraff

The "budget cuts" mentioned by the deva could be the Outer Planes conserving divine energy for the possibility of the interim period.

----------


## Lexible

I just noticed that Durkon's cousin and Durkon have a history of stealing one another's thunder.

----------


## littlebum2002

In panel 3, Redcloak says "no pun intended", but I just realized I don't actually know what pun he made. The only thing Google gives me is Lions Bay, a town of 1300 in British Columbia, but somehow I dont think that's it.

----------


## TheWombatOfDoom

> In panel 3, Redcloak says "no pun intended", but I just realized I don't actually know what pun he made. The only thing Google gives me is Lions Bay, a town of 1300 in British Columbia, but somehow I dont think that's it.


Send it up the *Dock*, and keep the enemies at *Bay*.

----------


## Peelee

> In panel 3, Redcloak says "no pun intended", but I just realized I don't actually know what pun he made. The only thing Google gives me is Lions Bay, a town of 1300 in British Columbia, but somehow I dont think that's it.


The troops are being kept at bay. At a shoreline/shipping dock. Possibly a geographical bay.

----------


## Vinyadan

*Spoiler: O-Chul Book*
Show

O-Chul pulled the same trick Belkar tried to pull on Miko.

----------


## littlebum2002

> The troops are being kept at bay. At a shoreline/shipping dock. Possibly a geographical bay.


Oh good, so it's just as bad of a pun as I hoped it would be. Thanks!

----------


## Aidan

I finally noticed the parallels between the two times V fought Team Evils forces in Azure City, the first time V clearly sees magic as being the only thing they bring to the table, so when they run out, they turned invisible and ran away. When they attack Xykon, they are placed into a similar position, after losing the soul splices, the only thing allowing them to have a chance of beating Xykon, they turn invisible and go to flee, but this time V realizes the harm that their ego has caused to the Order, Azure City, and their family, and decides to help O-Chul despite the great personal risk to themselves.

I didn't pick up the complete implications of this when reading it originally, but it now seems a key first step in V's development across the whole next book.

----------


## Gift Jeraff

I just noticed Lien is making a reference to Lost (I think) in panel 1.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> I just noticed Lien is making a reference to Lost (I think) in panel 1.


Given the symbol on the door is also from Lost, it is a fair guess.

GW

----------


## Wizard_Lizard

Ok so, I've been rereading the whole comic in colour this time, and wow some of my preconcieved colour expetations were way wrong, but it's cool!
(For some reason I thought that Jirix was blue, don't ask me why.)

----------


## ti'esar

...how were you NOT reading the comic in color?

----------


## Wizard_Lizard

> ...how were you NOT reading the comic in color?


Uh so when I first found giantitp, it was on the kindle internet browser. Um so I read the comic on that. (Also explains several typos on some of my earlier posts), The kindle does not have colour, hence how I read it without colour. No clue why I waited till now to read it in colour but oh wellll..

----------


## Mariele

I find that incredibly charming. Like watching a TV series on an old black-and-white set and rediscovering it on a color set... except in the modern age, lol.

I completely skimmed over the parallels there too, Aidan. Makes that scene even better.

----------


## Wizard_Lizard

> I find that incredibly charming. Like watching a TV series on an old black-and-white set and rediscovering it on a color set... except in the modern age, lol.


Yeah it is I guess. It's like being able to enjoy everything all over again but with new things to look for still, I actually kinda recommend it!
EDIT: Although I will add that Giantitp no longer works on my kindle browser, not sure about other people's kindles, but I think the giantitp kindle browser community is probably fairly miniscule.

EDIT 2: Just got up to rereading the part that made me think Jirix was blue. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html

----------


## Lord Torath

> I just noticed Lien is making a reference to Lost (I think) in panel 1.





> Given the symbol on the door is also from Lost, it is a fair guess.
> 
> GW


Wow.  And so the Greg Initiative (panel 4) is also a reference to Lost, and is, at the same time, a reference to Dharma and Greg.

I always thought The Greg Initiative was a reference to Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the Initiative from season 4.

----------


## Gift Jeraff

Crystal already knew gnome heads were fun to attack back when she was human.

----------


## Ruck

> Wow.  And so the Greg Initiative (panel 4) is also a reference to Lost, and is, at the same time, a reference to Dharma and Greg.
> 
> I always thought The Greg Initiative was a reference to Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the Initiative from season 4.


Dang, I was going to drop the _Dharma and Greg_ knowledge. But yeah, I don't think it makes sense to call it the Greg Initiative if it's a _Buffy_ reference. More likely the Riley Initiative, or the Blandy McBlanderson Initiative, or whatever.

----------


## Dr.Zero

Probably noticed and discussed a bazzilion of times already by other people, but I just noticed Durkula slipping on his accent (the real Durkon always uses "me" instead of "my"), maybe for the first time.
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0931.html

----------


## Lord Torath

Just noticed from that same comic that "If'n" is one word, at least as far as Sending's 25-word limit is concerned.   :Small Amused:

----------


## Fyraltari

> Probably noticed and discussed a bazzilion of times already by other people, but I just noticed Durkula slipping on his accent (the real Durkon always uses "me" instead of "my"), maybe for the first time.
> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0931.html


He confesses it to Hel a few strips later.

----------


## Schroeswald

Redcloak is intentionally not shown in full for 699, so that when we first see Redcloak with the eyepatch, hes looking in the mirror, so we see *Spoiler*
Show

Right-Eye
 first.

----------


## Ionathus

I just noticed that in #399, Vaarsuvius asks "what, exactly, would the problem with [binding someone's soul as punishment] be?"

I'm willing to bet that, by the time Rich wrote this, he already knew the future ABD's plans for V's children.

----------


## Vinyadan

> I just noticed that in #399, Vaarsuvius asks "what, exactly, would the problem with [binding someone's soul as punishment] be?"
> 
> I'm willing to bet that, by the time Rich wrote this, he already knew the future ABD's plans for V's children.


I never noticed that this is one step closer to killing Kubota.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I just noticed that in #399, Vaarsuvius asks "what, exactly, would the problem with [binding someone's soul as punishment] be?"
> 
> I'm willing to bet that, by the time Rich wrote this, he already knew the future ABD's plans for V's children.


Excellent catch.
(And just so that I can pretend I'm contributing to the thread, here's a somewhat contrived one: in strip no. 1052, panel no. 5 Haley says she's not sure they aren't high enough level to face evil high priest goblins without having to run away. As of strip no. 1212, Durkon's been busy not running away from one for nine strips.)

----------


## Wildstag

I only just saw this, but on 468, we see that Haley has a heart-and-something tattoo on her spine that is normally covered up by her armor. It's probably visible in a couple other pages, but I noticed it on that one.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Yeah, she mentioned that in one of her cryptograms.

----------


## ByzantiumBhuka

I just noticed that the runes in the Council meeting have a one-to-one correspondence with letters of the English alphabet, reading "only dwarves may pass" and "follow the law", and that an entirely different set of runes (presumably Gnomish) translates to "this spell blocks the heat". The Wall of Names of Very Rich Donors also uses dwarven script; the letters aren't very clear in the online comic, but I'd wager a quatloo that somebody with the Utterly Dwarfed book, an eye for detail, and some time on their hands could find a Sigdi Thundershield on it.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I just noticed that the runes in the Council meeting have a one-to-one correspondence with letters of the English alphabet, reading "only dwarves may pass" and "follow the law", and that an entirely different set of runes (presumably Gnomish) translates to "this spell blocks the heat". The Wall of Names of Very Rich Donors also uses dwarven script; the letters aren't very clear in the online comic, but I'd wager a quatloo that somebody with the Utterly Dwarfed book, an eye for detail, and some time on their hands could find a Sigdi Thundershield on it.


Yup. People were discussing Sidgis donation in the strips discussion threads. I think it took a while for someone to notice, though.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

The blonde haired woman who's Durkon's 'aunt' is also on the wall, IMS.

----------


## Werbaer

> Yup. People were discussing Sidgis donation in the strips discussion threads. I think it took a while for someone to notice, though.


It was discussed in the #1121 thread.




> Now's probably a good time to point out that one of those names is in fact:
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Sigdi Thundershield.
> 
> The one above it is Shirra Copperbottom, which may be Sigdi's friend.
> 
> 
> Here's the font.

----------


## snowblizz

A moment of insight sparked by reading back the comment thread of #1213. While reading the discussion on various entities motivations and the Eastern Pantheon and World 1.0. We generally take for granted the crayon stuff is somehow valid, maybe biased, but at least information from someone who knows. But all the crayon depictions assume now is World 2.0 and the gods actually look like they do now, which knowing this is world 2^23456789 or something makes littel sense.

So either the World 1.0 was a generic fantasy D&D world or even more of the crayon information is suspect.


Or to put it another way, I just realised the Eastern gods probably didn't look like the ancient Greek gods they are shown as in the "backstory".

----------


## danielxcutter

> A moment of insight sparked by reading back the comment thread of #1213. While reading the discussion on various entities motivations and the Eastern Pantheon and World 1.0. We generally take for granted the crayon stuff is somehow valid, maybe biased, but at least information from someone who knows. But all the crayon depictions assume now is World 2.0 and the gods actually look like they do now, which knowing this is world 2^23456789 or something makes littel sense.
> 
> So either the World 1.0 was a generic fantasy D&D world or even more of the crayon information is suspect.
> 
> 
> Or to put it another way, I just realised the Eastern gods probably didn't look like the ancient Greek gods they are shown as in the "backstory".


I personally believe they might have just been represented like that for convenience's sake, plus it's possible that since they've looped back to "yet another cliched fantasy world" they just went with their "default" forms.

----------


## The Linker

I believe part of the reason the crayon strips _are_ in crayon is to emphasize how it's just someone's explanation. It's Shojo's story of how the Snarl came to pass; it's limited by the extent of his knowledge. Even if he did know that the gods looked different eons ago, he probably didn't know _what_ they looked like exactly. So he drew them as he knows them.

----------


## snowblizz

> I believe part of the reason the crayon strips _are_ in crayon is to emphasize how it's just someone's explanation. It's Shojo's story of how the Snarl came to pass; it's limited by the extent of his knowledge. Even if he did know that the gods looked different eons ago, he probably didn't know _what_ they looked like exactly. So he drew them as he knows them.


I remember reading that was also a deliberate idea to present a more "primitive" stage of creation.


I doubt Shojo knows more than that there was an old world and that this is a new world. If he knew he would have told us so, but it is important that we didn't know it yet, so Shojo didn't know. Had Shojo known his paladins were actively contributing to the problem not being solved, ie antagonizing TDO's followers he likely woulda stopped it. The man was an ultimate pragmatist, he could hold back info if he thought it helped but in this case eg recruiting Roy more info on how vital his task was woulda been key.

Basically I think that moratorium on info from the gods about the gates has meant they only tell as little as is needed. Especially since this seems to be the first time ther's something to be done. So IMO Shojo works on the god's standard info package contigency for rifts. Tell them a little, hold it up for as long as you can and then tear it up without people knowing so they don't angst or ruin the world.

----------


## b_jonas

> Had Shojo known his paladins were actively contributing to the problem not being solved, ie antagonizing TDO's followers he likely woulda stopped it.


Yes, that is explored a bit in "How the paladin got his scar" in the "Good Deeds Gone Unpunished" book.

----------


## danielxcutter

> Yes, that is explored a bit in "How the paladin got his scar" in the "Good Deeds Gone Unpunished" book.


Was that mentioned? Huh. Shame I don't have the book.

----------


## Quebbster

> I personally believe they might have just been represented like that for convenience's sake, plus it's possible that since they've looped back to "yet another cliched fantasy world" they just went with their "default" forms.


The eastern gods have a non-crayon appearance, admittedly as an image created by Thor but since he presumably met them he probably knew what they looked like.

----------


## danielxcutter

> The eastern gods have a non-crayon appearance, admittedly as an image created by Thor but since he presumably met them he probably knew what they looked like.


Yeah, since they never got to the next world they never had different representations like the other gods might have in non-fantasy worlds.

----------


## snowblizz

> Was that mentioned? Huh. Shame I don't have the book.


Indirectly. But basically the Sapphire Guard we see (saw) today is quite different in outlook to the one today. And Shojo had a much less direct role in guiding it previously. Played senility not withstanding. Quite literally it's more Hinjo and O'Chulo like than Miko-like. But this is probably not the thread for thinking abot that.



Thing is, Thor is likely shoving things in a way his mortal followers can process, they understand the world as a fantasy parody which means Thor would chose to explain things in the context of fantasy parody tropes.

----------


## Quebbster

> Yeah, since they never got to the next world they never had different representations like the other gods might have in non-fantasy worlds.


We're getting into deep theoretical waters here. At the very least, I don't think the remaining pantheons would invent new names for the Eastern gods (as the names are meaningless in the Stickworld anyway), so it's reasonable to assume they were named Zeus, Poseidon, Athena and so on regardless of their appearance.

----------


## Metastachydium

In strip no. 365, Nale tells Sabine that his disguise won't work forever, except maybe for the halfling. Belkar is, however, the first member of the Order to notice he's not Elan.

----------


## Lord Torath

> In strip no. 365, Nale tells Sabine that his disguise won't work forever, except maybe for the halfling. Belkar is, however, the first member of the Order to notice he's not Elan.


Belkar actually knows his party quite well, considering he's a socio/psychopath who claims he doesn't care.  He's quite good at telling when someone's faking.

----------


## Bilbo Baggins

At the end of 1003, Durkula is saying "even if you can keep me from casting spells,  I still have vampire powers and melee fighting prowess." For some reason, previously I'd always thought he was implying that Roy is unable to fight, which doesn't really make sense.

----------


## Metastachydium

Elan has met the bandit leader before the events of _No Cure_. He was present at the tavern where Sir Francoi wanted to Gather Information in _Origin_.

----------


## Kornaki

I just noticed that here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html

Durkon's speech about waking up and deciding to be a good person intentionally parallels Belkar waking up.

----------


## Ionathus

Seeing Xykon and Redcloak side-by-side in the new art style, I realized that Xykon's stick-hands actually look longer and skinnier than others' hands! Not sure if it's intentional or just an optical effect, but this would make sense for a skeleton and is a fun little touch in the new artwork.

Also, when I went back to re-read the Council of Clans scene (because I love it dearly), I noticed Crossbow Guy (in panel 8, bottom left corner). He only shows up in the very back corners of this page and also 1162. I wonder what his story is. 

We demand a spinoff series!!

----------


## PontificatusRex

So, I was just rereading the first book and now I really wish that in #1205 Redcloak had said "Hey, you're that dwarf I watched having sex in Strip 82!"

----------


## Squire Doodad

First panel. "Guess what spell I cast before giving this to the bird."

Unrelated, does anyone know what Roy's Archon was supposed to do?

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

No, that particular shoe is still hovering in mid-air. Much like a lantern archon.

----------


## Metastachydium

On the bottom left panel of no. 887 we see the Order and their local allies retaking Azure City. Thanh, Tsukiko, Half-Eye and Topknot are shown to be alive, while Jirix is shown to be dead. Outside the illusion Jirix is alive, while the other four are all dead.

----------


## danielxcutter

> On the bottom left panel of no. 887 we see the Order and their local allies retaking Azure City. Thanh, Tsukiko, Half-Eye and Topknot are shown to be alive, while Jirix is shown to be dead. Outside the illusion Jirix is alive, while the other four are all dead.


And _I_ just realized in the panel where Haley is enjoying her gold, Elan's standing in the door.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

What's Haley's line? "Thinking about getting on with you on top of a giant pile of gold still technically counts as thinking of you."

----------


## Ionathus

*Spoiler: GDGU*
Show

The Supreme Leader's doom was sealed since 463 -- because everyone knows hobgoblins can't resist a fine gouda.

----------


## Metastachydium

> And _I_ just realized in the panel where Haley is enjoying her gold, Elan's standing in the door.


And for a good reason, if panel no.10 here is anything to go by.

----------


## Riftwolf

Just realised that in the original Crayons of Time, when the Goddess and Monkey are arguing over ninjas, that this wasn't the first time the Gods decided to add something incongruous (and possibly cribbed from an earlier campaign)

----------


## danielxcutter

In the first panel of strip 11# Haley has three arms.

----------


## snowblizz

> In the first panel of strip 11# Haley has three arms.


That is most likely the furthest back anyone has ever pointed out a thing I also never noticed. Now I have to check my book copy, I guess it's fixed there.

----------


## danielxcutter

> That is most likely the furthest back anyone has ever pointed out a thing I also never noticed. Now I have to check my book copy, I guess it's fixed there.


To be fair _I_ only found that because it got pointed out in another thread. I just posted it here because none of them did already.

----------


## Mister Tom

> That is most likely the furthest back anyone has ever pointed out a thing I also never noticed. Now I have to check my book copy, I guess it's fixed there.


Challenge accepted... in strip 4, Elan claims to be "inspiring compet*a*nce". Either a) this is an acceptable spelling not in my dictionary or b) it's a stealth joke. I'm choosing to believe b)

----------


## Metastachydium

> Challenge accepted... in strip 4, Elan claims to be "inspiring compet*a*nce". Either a) this is an acceptable spelling not in my dictionary or b) it's a stealth joke. I'm choosing to believe b)


This is so going to be a stretch, but in strip no. *1* Roy slices a goblin with an axe in two; the upper half of the goblin flies upwards and remains alive for the time being. In strip no. 106, the first strip of the confrontation in the throne room, Roy slices a goblin with an axe in two; the upper half of the goblin flies upwards and remains alive for the time being.

----------


## Peelee

Julia's senior project involves getting rid of Sending'a "silly 25-word limit" . The idea for this very likely stems from events she personally witnessed.

----------


## deltamire

It's either an addition character design or a facet of the art upgrade between books 5 and 6, but Julia also changed her hair. She went from two streaks on her left, close to her face in a relatively saturated color to streaks on either side, branching out along the way in a less saturated yellow-tinged green. Sort of similar to the Greenhilt sword's lime-ish aura. It's hard to tell exact hues with the overlay of her spell mixing the colours, but it's a nice touch either way.

I've got like six or seven useless notes of minor sprite changes between books. Maybe if I shove 'em together, they'll all make up maybe half a fun fact.

----------


## Gift Jeraff

Despite what Bandana said, the main plot did stand still thanks to Serini's doors and Haley did get around to finishing the Thieves' Guild sidequest.

----------


## DaLucaray

> Probably noticed and discussed a bazzilion of times already by other people, but I just noticed Durkula slipping on his accent (the real Durkon always uses "me" instead of "my"), maybe for the first time.
> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0931.html


That same comic has V witness some very un-Durkon-like behavior, which is probably why they later didn't assume the vampire was Durkon. 

I dunno how obvious it is but hey

----------


## Bilbo Baggins

I only just got the joke in panel 4 of #764

----------


## danielxcutter

> I only just got the joke in panel 4 of #764


Im not entirely sure what it was myself.

----------


## Ron Miel

In the background, Elan is repeating the conversation he just had with his father.

----------


## Lord Torath

And Rich poking fun at his own tendency to cram too many word balloons on a page (his own words, not mine).

----------


## Ionathus

> In the background, Elan is repeating the conversation he just had with his father.


Holy cow, I love that! Such a subtle and elegant reference to the background event of Elan & Haley talking -- and that never even occurred to me before.

----------


## Metastachydium

On p. 48 of _Origin_ V erroneously refers to bat guano as rodent feces.

----------


## Peelee

> On p. 48 of _Origin_ V erroneously refers to bat guano as rodent feces.


Good catch. Bats are, of course, bugs. Super bonus points to whoever gets _that_ reference.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Good catch. Bats are, of course, bugs. Super bonus points to whoever gets _that_ reference.


Would Spiff the Spaceman win against a dragon?

----------


## Ionathus

> Would Spiff the Spaceman win against a dragon?


My money's on Stupendous Man.

----------


## Lord Torath

> Would Spiff the Spaceman win against a dragon?


Is it a gurl dragon?

----------


## Precure

First strip, on the right panel's wall makes an unusual bump, most probably so Durkon's face wouldn't be cut by it. Same panel layout then used in many other strips. In some cases it's covered, sometimes it's left uncolored as an art error. He rid of it in strip 20 but it's returned by strip 22 and used to strip 34 with no change. Same panel form is used in strips 35 and 36 with some changes, but starting with strip 37 he began to draw unique panels for different strips, which he fully accomplished by drawing the strip 41.

----------


## snowblizz

> First strip, on the right panel's wall makes an unusual bump, most probably so Durkon's face wouldn't be cut by it. Same panel layout then used in many other strips. In some cases it's covered, sometimes it's left uncolored as an art error. He rid of it in strip 20 but it's returned by strip 22 and used to strip 34 with no change. Same panel form is used in strips 35 and 36 with some changes, but starting with strip 37 he began to draw unique panels for different strips, which he fully accomplished by drawing the strip 41.


The uneven panels is a deliberate choice of style to go with "badly drawn stickfigure comic". The Giant went all in on the style. Eventually he tired of it and straightened it all out. I suspect somehwere along when the comic becomes the main focus of the site not just click bait.

----------


## Yendor

I just noticed that in the world of sentient theatre snacks, Soda is attacking Pizza with a pizza cutter.

----------


## Metastachydium

Just realized this: after the fight with the ogres (during which all the ogres were killed) Roy could have just picked up the _greatsword_ the one with class levels carried, but for some reason he sticked with his club.

----------


## Ron Miel

Elan is blowing into the wrong end of his  kazoo.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html


From Wiki:  "A kazoo player hums, rather than blows, into the bigger and flattened side of the instrument."

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> Just realized this: after the fight with the ogres (during which all the ogres were killed) Roy could have just picked up the _greatsword_ the one with class levels carried, but for some reason he sticked with his club.


Ogres are large, and thus presumably their weapons are appropriate for their size:



> Inappropriately Sized Weapons
> A creature cant make optimum use of a weapon that isnt properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder.


Roy may have preferred to not incur in the penalty over a bit more damage.

GW

----------


## Peelee

> Elan is blowing into the wrong end of his  kazoo.
> 
> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html
> 
> 
> From Wiki:  "A kazoo player hums, rather than blows, into the bigger and flattened side of the instrument."


Today I learned I've always played kazoos wrong. 



> Ogres are large, and thus presumably their weapons are appropriate for their size:
> 
> 
> Roy may have preferred to not incur in the penalty over a bit more damage.
> 
> GW


I was right about to point that out myself.

----------


## snowblizz

> Just realized this: after the fight with the ogres (during which all the ogres were killed) Roy could have just picked up the _greatsword_ the one with class levels carried, but for some reason he sticked with his club.


In a bonus comic before entering the wood to find starmetal Roy has the opportunity to pass by the famous sword tree. (OK we can't blame Roy for that) But, also, he had the opportunity to arm himself from the dragon hoard and chose not to. Basically Roy's attachement to his ancestral sword has clouded his judgement more than once. Nothing says he couldn't have taken a usable sword from the hoard while he waited to get his greatsword repaired.

Haley points this out in a comic I can't find right now.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Ogres are large, and thus presumably their weapons are appropriate for their size:


Yeah, I realized that in the meantime myself (also, there is no presumably there: the ogre greatclubs, for instance, are visibly larger than what Roy carries).




> Roy may have preferred to not incur in the penalty over a bit more damage.
> 
> GW


Hm. You made me think there. We know that Roy has Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization for greatswords. That would mean that the penalty for the size would be reduced to -1, while he could deal 3d6+2 damage with the large-sized greatsword instead of the 1d10 of the club. That's quite the difference, y'see.




> Haley points this out in a comic I can't find right now.


It could be strip no. 146, although that one has Belkar instead of Haley.

----------


## snowblizz

> It could be strip no. 146, although that one has Belkar instead of Haley.


That has the right dialogue, I think you are right. I only remembered the dragon hoard, that they got treausre off Xykon completely escaped my mind, and so logically thought it was Haley doing the talking. Now I have an excuse to re read OOTS though for a bit.

Incidentally the Tree of Swords scene only in the books is just after this comic, so I must have gotten it mixed up and thinking it was later.

Actually the more I think there must be another scene somewhere because Haley was definitely saying something about Roy's masculinity being too tied up into his sword. Maybe am conflating two scenes togther or something.

----------


## Metastachydium

> That has the right dialogue, I think you are right. I only remembered the dragon hoard, that they got treausre off Xykon completely escaped my mind, and so logically thought it was Haley doing the talking. Now I have an excuse to re read OOTS though for a bit.


I'm useful!




> Incidentally the Tree of Swords scene only in the books is just after this comic, so I must have gotten it mixed up and thinking it was later.


What's in that scene, anyway?




> Actually the more I think there must be another scene somewhere because Haley was definitely saying something about Roy's masculinity being too tied up into his sword. Maybe am conflating two scenes togther or something.


You sure it wasn't a Durkon scene?

----------


## Peelee

> Basically Roy's attachement to his ancestral sword has clouded his judgement more than once.


Which is odd, because he was perfectly willing to try a different weapon in the shop.

----------


## Yanisa

When Thanh get's dominated, both his eye have a different color. Another example of Tsukiko's double magic/double color in action.

----------


## Verdruss

I always thought that this comic is a hint that the snarl (if it exists?) is not as dangerous and killing as it is told in all the stories. Today I noticed one guard being stabbed by the purple "tentacles".

----------


## Lord Torath

> I always thought that this comic is a hint that the snarl (if it exists?) is not as dangerous and killing as it is told in all the stories. Today I noticed one guard being stabbed by the purple "tentacles".


Yeah.  Unfortunately, he's wearing a helmet, so we can't see the (presumably) x'd-out eyes.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> Yeah.  Unfortunately, he's wearing a helmet, so we can't see the (presumably) x'd-out eyes.


If he's lucky. If the Snarl really only consumes souls, the body might still be alive and in a catatonic state (which is what I half-way suspect may have happened to Lauren).

But yes, it is ambiguous enough it could turn out that the Snarl is just a teddy bear who just wants hugs and hasn't harmed anyone. I doubt it, but without a follow up panel, it _could_ be.

Grey Wolf

----------


## Kornaki

> I always thought that this comic is a hint that the snarl (if it exists?) is not as dangerous and killing as it is told in all the stories. Today I noticed one guard being stabbed by the purple "tentacles".


Yeah the point of that comic if definitely that we previously had some evidence that the snarl might not exist, but in fact it does and it can kill people.

----------


## Ron Miel

> Yeah.  Unfortunately, he's wearing a helmet, so we can't see the (presumably) x'd-out eyes.


However, Tarquin's soldiers have X's on their helmets when they die. One might reasonably assume it's the same for the weepies.  The lack of X's on the helmet might show that he's still alive.

----------


## Verdruss

> Yeah the point of that comic if definitely that we previously had some evidence that the snarl might not exist, but in fact it does and it can kill people.


Actually I'm still in camp "Snarl does not exist"(is there a camp? Am I the only one?), at least in the sense it is portrayed in then scribbles. I think it's pretty interesting and definitely on purpose that we haven't seen any scary eyes or claws as part of the snarl. I have my theories about what it might be instead but for me it is definitely no hateful "I want to break free" world consuming creature.

----------


## danielxcutter

> However, Tarquin's soldiers have X's on their helmets when they die. One might reasonably assume it's the same for the weepies.  The lack of X's on the helmet might show that he's still alive.


Nitpick: those soldiers are from the Empire of Sweat, not the Empire of Tears. I think they're called the Sweaters but I could be wrong.




> Actually I'm still in camp "Snarl does not exist"(is there a camp? Am I the only one?), at least in the sense it is portrayed in then scribbles. I think it's pretty interesting and definitely on purpose that we haven't seen any scary eyes or claws as part of the snarl. I have my theories about what it might be instead but for me it is definitely no hateful "I want to break free" world consuming creature.


That wouldn't really be called the "Snarl doesn't exist" camp so much as it would be the "Snarl is of a different nature than we were told", but I wouldn't rule that out so far. Not yet, at least.

----------


## Ruck

> Actually I'm still in camp "Snarl does not exist"(is there a camp? Am I the only one?), at least in the sense it is portrayed in then scribbles. I think it's pretty interesting and definitely on purpose that we haven't seen any scary eyes or claws as part of the snarl. I have my theories about what it might be instead but for me it is definitely no hateful "I want to break free" world consuming creature.





> That wouldn't really be called the "Snarl doesn't exist" camp so much as it would be the "Snarl is of a different nature than we were told", but I wouldn't rule that out so far. Not yet, at least.


Yeah, I think #945 confirms it definitely exists; I'm also giving credence to the stories we've heard about it, now that some of that information has come directly from Thor.

----------


## danielxcutter

> Yeah, I think #945 confirms it definitely exists; I'm also giving credence to the stories we've heard about it, now that some of that information has come directly from Thor.


Hmm, fair enough. Maybe there might be a twist in the aspects aside from that or something. Probably related to the World in the Rifts or something.

----------


## Ruck

There's definitely enough we don't know that I'm not confident coming to any strong conclusions about what's really going on there.

----------


## Mad Humanist

I just noticed that in 648, it's really hard to tell who the "good guys" if you look at it out of context.

----------


## Vinyadan

> I just noticed that in 648, it's really hard to tell who the "good guys" if you look at it out of context.


It's actually one of the reasons why I used to think Haley was neutral instead of good. The book expands a bit on the causes for Haley's actions, however.

----------


## Finagle

The Weeping King's Throne of Regrets is shaped like what a stick figure's eyebrows look like when crying.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html

----------


## danielxcutter

> The Weeping King's Throne of Regrets is shaped like what a stick figure's eyebrows look like when crying.
> 
> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html


Well found! I honestly didn't know that until now.

----------


## Lord Torath

Wow.  I can't believe I never noticed this: It Probably Squeaks, Too applies to the closed door.

----------


## MReav

In the fourth to last panel of 1223, there is a portal shimmer while Roy's back is turned. That's why he didn't know Blackwing had already left despite the obvious effects that entering/leaving the portal have.

----------


## Darth V

Why is Belkar sleeping in Varsuuvius' room? 

Secret affair?  :Small Big Grin:  Bring the Crack Pairing Thread back!

----------


## Fyraltari

> Why is Belkar sleeping in Varsuuvius' room? 
> 
> Secret affair?  Bring the Crack Pairing Thread back!


Because Haley sleeps with Elan now? The Mechane only has so many cabins.

----------


## Yanisa

> Why is Belkar sleeping in Varsuuvius' room? 
> 
> Secret affair?  Bring the Crack Pairing Thread back!


Check 1191 panel three. V is reporting (to Roy) that Belkar is sleeping. 




> Because Haley sleeps with Elan now? The Mechane only has so many cabins.


In 1013 we can see only one bed in that room.



Just some fuel for a silly theory.  :Small Wink:

----------


## Peelee

> In 1013 we can see only one bed in that room.


V is an elf, and thus does not require a bed. They may use one to trance on if one is available, but it's by no means necessary.

----------


## Darth V

And in the fifth panel here V said they summoned Belkar to their room. So they didn't share the room before. I still can't wrap my head around Belkar and V sharing a room!

----------


## WanderingMist

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html

Panel 8. Tarquin is more than a little prophetic, isn't he?

---------------------------------------------------------------




> In panel 3, Redcloak says "no pun intended", but I just realized I don't actually know what pun he made. The only thing Google gives me is Lions Bay, a town of 1300 in British Columbia, but somehow I dont think that's it.


This is from a few pages back, but I wanted to explain that "at bay" in the original sense means "pursued by hunting dogs".

----------


## Kish

> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html
> 
> Panel 8. Tarquin is more than a little prophetic, isn't he?


I'm pretty sure the story's going to have an end.

----------


## Lord Torath

> This is from a few pages back, but I wanted to explain that "at bay" in the original sense means "pursued by hunting dogs".


To expound further:  "The baying (barking) of the hunting dogs".

In more modern usage it means kept away, usually by force or threat of force.  And they're standing at the edge of a bay.

I also never noticed NotDurkon waving mockingly to Roy as the sword is inbound.

----------


## Ron Miel

> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html
> 
> Panel 8. Tarquin is more than a little prophetic, isn't he?


In what way? I don't know what you're driving at.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Originally Posted by Metastachydium
> 
> 
> Just realized this: after the fight with the ogres (during which all the ogres were killed) Roy could have just picked up the _greatsword_ the one with class levels carried, but for some reason he sticked with his club.
> 
> 
> Ogres are large, and thus presumably their weapons are appropriate for their size:
> 
> 
> ...


More seriously, he couldn't use it:


> The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielders size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapons designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature cant wield the weapon at all.


A greatsword is a two-handed weapon, so a greatsword sized for a Large creature can't be effectively wielded by a Medium creature.  Unless that creature wasted a feat on Monkey Grip or something, anyway.

----------


## Darth V

> In what way? I don't know what you're driving at.



I guess a thinly veiled attack against the author regarding Things We Are Not Allowed To Discuss Here with the "storyteller" who "stops talking" being meant to be The Giant himself. 

Just ignore it, it's a **** move.  :Small Mad: 



*Richard

----------


## WanderingMist

> I guess a thinly veiled attack against the author regarding Things We Are Not Allowed To Discuss Here with the "storyteller" who "stops talking" being meant to be The Giant himself. 
> 
> Just ignore it, it's a **** move. 
> 
> 
> 
> *Richard


What? I meant Tarquin is predicting the end of his own arc. Instead of the climactic final showdown against his son ending in his death that he wanted, his son just leaves him partially stranded in the desert, giving him no satisfying conclusion. I don't know how you're getting "attack on the author" out of that.

----------


## Darth V

> What? I meant Tarquin is predicting the end of his own arc. Instead of the climactic final showdown against his son ending in his death that he wanted, his son just leaves him partially stranded in the desert, giving him no satisfying conclusion. I don't know how you're getting "attack on the author" out of that.




Woops, I am terribly sorry if I misinterpreted you. I had read too many passive-aggressive posts on The Giant's Twitter and Kickstarter recently with people whining about lack of updates and missing Kickstarter rewards. Seeing someone focus on that single speach with "storyteller" looked like the same context to me. I apologize if I had your intentions mistaken.

----------


## Ionathus

I know this is perhaps verging on "fan theory," but I just noticed that in 1171 while debating souls with Hel, Loki says "Fine with me. *Hardly any of these are mine anyway.*" 

It's established that dwarves don't really worship Loki very much, probably due to that whole "live & die with honor" requirement for a happy afterlife. _OR maybe Loki does have dwarven worshippers, and Hilgya's convoluted, insane troll logic plan actually works to satisfy the "honor" requirement?_

----------


## Peelee

I just realized the reason Drawmij's Instant Summons is on yellow paper is because it was written on a legal pad.

----------


## danielxcutter

> I just realized the reason Drawmij's Instant Summons is on yellow paper is because it was written on a legal pad.


A legal what?

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

A type of notebook so named because it was meant to be used by lawyers. You can find a picture if you look at the online storefront for pretty much any office supply company.

----------


## Peelee

> A type of notebook so named because it was meant to be used by lawyers. You can find a picture if you look at the online storefront for pretty much any office supply company.


Or an image search in any online search engine with the phrase "legal pad". Also, they are notable for overwhelmingly using yellow paper.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> A type of notebook so named because it was meant to be used by lawyers.


Also LE rogues with too much skin in the game to be comfortable with continuing the game.

GW

----------


## Peelee

> Also LE rogues with too much skin in the game to be comfortable with continuing the game.
> 
> GW


Well, the different shade kind of pokes a hole in my theory, then.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Nah, they come in all shades. Undyed is becoming popular for obvious reasons.

----------


## danielxcutter

Personally I always thought Hank was LN, though I could be wrong.

Edit: Oh, he's TN. Anyways, not LE.

----------


## Ionathus

Why the heck was the Exarch of the Creed of the Stone carrying around a scroll of Horrid Wilting at the Godsmoot?

----------


## danielxcutter

> Why the heck was the Exarch of the Creed of the Stone carrying around a scroll of Horrid Wilting at the Godsmoot?


Good question; neither religions actually have domains with Horrid Wilting on them.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Simplest explanation is he'd use it to get rid of all those yucky plants covering all the pretty stone he's about to rework into something else. Like a giant single-use cathedral.

----------


## danielxcutter

> Simplest explanation is he'd use it to get rid of all those yucky plants covering all the pretty stone he's about to rework into something else. Like a giant single-use cathedral.


The problem is that he really _shouldn't_ be able to use that spell, though.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Why the heck was the Exarch of the Creed of the Stone carrying around a scroll of Horrid Wilting at the Godsmoot?


Killed an evil adventurer some time before?

----------


## Metastachydium

> The problem is that he really _shouldn't_ be able to use that spell, though.


How about this: he had a single level dip in sorcerer, a CHA score of 18 and he made the caster level check.




> Simplest explanation is he'd use it to get rid of all those yucky plants covering all the pretty stone he's about to rework into something else. Like a giant single-use cathedral.


If he did the above just so that he can hurt poor planties, I'm afraid I have to conclude that *HE WAS EVIL ALL ALONG*.

----------


## littlebum2002

> Good question; neither religions actually have domains with Horrid Wilting on them.


The only core domain I can find with that spell is the Water domain, which seems like a strange choice for someone who (basically) worships stone. The spell also doesn't seem to be on the spell list for any divine prestige classes.

Non-core domains with this spell are:

Thirst
Blight-Bringer
Pestillence
Suffering

None of these seem very appropriate for the Exarch unless he, like *Durkon's other vampire companion, had some pretty dark thoughts hiding beneath the surface.

----------


## Lord Torath

I suppose it's possible he defeated a rival cleric of a faith that has access to that spell, and that cleric happened to be carrying the scroll at the time.

How long would it take for a cleric to create such a scroll?  Could he have spent some time at Firmament writing it?

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

It's also possible he simply bought it somewhere.

----------


## Jasdoif

> The problem is that he really _shouldn't_ be able to use that spell, though.


Unless he has archivist levels and/or ranks in UMD.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Or Rich simply doesn't care about the rules minutia anymore.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Or Rich simply doesn't care about the rules minutia anymore.


Why would I let the obvious truth stop me from being amused at oblique self-reference?  :Small Confused:

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Because it confuses us when you reference somebody other than The Giant? Now I'll have to rethink if I want to get Summon Banana VI.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Because it confuses us when you reference somebody other than The Giant?


That's not oblique reference, that's direct reference.


> As far as this thread goes, or any other attempt to align the events of the comic with D&D, my suggestion is to treat the comic as if it is based on "OOTS RPG," a hypothetical game that is exactly like D&D in every wayexcept for those ways that the comic shows that it isn't. Everything is D&D until proven otherwise. Because that's sort of how I write it; I use the D&D rules when they fit into the story (and I remember them), and break them when they don't. Thus, you can still extrapolate D&D stats of the characters unless I show something that simply defies the game as writtenlike Roy casting a fireball. And you can still make predictions about what might happen in the future as if it were all going to unfold according to the D&D rules, as long as you understand that hey, maybe I might fudge that one. And then don't complain if I do.

----------


## Ionathus

> I suppose it's possible he defeated a rival cleric of a faith that has access to that spell, and that cleric happened to be carrying the scroll at the time.
> 
> How long would it take for a cleric to create such a scroll?  Could he have spent some time at Firmament writing it?


That's what I'm more focused on: whether or not his domain allowed him to use it, Horrid Wilting just didn't seem at all within the living Exarch's _philosophical_ wheelhouse, although it fits perfectly within Hel's. Defeating a rival who was carrying it does make some sense.

----------


## danielxcutter

I would personally not be surprised if someone paid him for something with spare scrolls instead of money and he died before he could sell them, but of course we don't know what happened.

----------


## Peelee

> That's what I'm more focused on: whether or not his domain allowed him to use it, Horrid Wilting just didn't seem at all within the living Exarch's _philosophical_ wheelhouse, although it fits perfectly within Hel's. Defeating a rival who was carrying it does make some sense.


He is part of the Creed of Stone. Plants disrupt stone and break it apart, as we have seen. I have no problem with a homebrew domain for those in the creed having Horrid Wilting be a domain spell.

----------


## Metastachydium

> He is part of the Creed of Stone. Plants disrupt stone and break it apart, as we have seen. I have no problem with a homebrew domain for those in the creed having Horrid Wilting be a domain spell.


So the entire Creed was *EVIL ALL ALONG*?

----------


## Peelee

> So the entire Creed was *EVIL ALL ALONG*?


I'm confused?

----------


## Metastachydium

> I'm confused?


Gruesomely murdering planties is just plain wrong.

----------


## Peelee

> Gruesomely murdering planties is just plain wrong.


Don't tell Durkon.

----------


## Fyraltari

> If he did the above just so that he can hurt poor planties, I'm afraid I have to conclude that *HE WAS EVIL ALL ALONG*.


Of course, he was a rebellious youth, wasn't he? And, as we know from Tsukiko, any youngling that rejects established authority is inherently a moral monster. It just makes sense.

----------


## The Linker

I was going to say "Isn't it possible it was just a scroll left around the council chamber, or somewhere else they stumbled upon in Firmament, to get rid of encroaching plant life," but I guess it _is_ a level 8 spell and I don't know if it's reasonable that this place has casters that powerful. Really, I know very little about how scrolls work. At all.

*EDIT:* Ahh, I see now he does mention where they came from.

----------


## Fyraltari

Elan demonstrates on panel 4 the power to see the future. Well, either that or V is right on panel 7.

----------


## Scizor

> I was going to say "Isn't it possible it was just a scroll left around the council chamber, or somewhere else they stumbled upon in Firmament, to get rid of encroaching plant life," but I guess it _is_ a level 8 spell and I don't know if it's reasonable that this place has casters that powerful. Really, I know very little about how scrolls work. At all.
> 
> *EDIT:* Ahh, I see now he does mention where they came from.


Nicely spotted, I hadn't noticed that.

----------


## Ruck

Kandro's line to Durkon in the second-to-last panel here takes on new weight considering what happens in the next strip.

----------


## ziproot

In the second-to-last panel in comic #1203 you can see Therkla in the background.

EDIT: Also, in comic 1233, panel 18, you can see Blackwing from the dead end.

EDIT 2: And in comic 1037, panel 7, it says Oona was planning on feeding O-Chul to the MITD. That would *not* have gone well.

EDIT 3: And in comic 864, panel 11, it talks about Sir Thumb getting defeated by some glass. That most likely has to do with Rich's hand injury that caused the delay.

EDIT 4: One of the things I noticed was found by MReav earlier:



> In the fourth to last panel of 1223, there is a portal shimmer while Roy's back is turned. That's why he didn't know Blackwing had already left despite the obvious effects that entering/leaving the portal have.

----------


## Ruck

I just realized how the title of #836 ties into the final punchline.

----------


## arimareiji

996:9 - What's actually happening to Belkar in that panel? According to the wiki he's "overcome" by his Protection from Evil, but I don't understand the basis for saying that. It looks like maybe gaseous Durkula is overtaking him, which _seems_ to eliminate my initial thought of "He failed a saving throw against something that rendered him unable to struggle in the next few panels".




> V is an elf, and thus does not require a bed. They may use one to trance on if one is available, but it's by no means necessary.


Now I'm wondering how many parallels can be drawn between trancing and marital relations, for instance "Technically you're not required to".

----------


## Schroeswald

> 996:9 - What's actually happening to Belkar in that panel? According to the wiki he's "overcome" by his Protection from Evil, but I don't understand the basis for saying that. It looks like maybe gaseous Durkula is overtaking him, which _seems_ to eliminate my initial thought of "He failed a saving throw against something that rendered him unable to struggle in the next few panels".


Hes overcome by all the constant pain from the fact that hes evil and protection from evil hurts him so he cant focus.

----------


## arimareiji

> Hes overcome by all the constant pain from the fact that hes evil and protection from evil hurts him so he cant focus.


I understand that for Belkar PfE "doesn't exactly tickle", but I'm not clear on why that would cause an event only at the moment Durkula catches up to him. There's no evidence of it in any of the other panels where it's active, and while "he rolled a 1" is possible it's not especially satisfying if there are other possibilities or if there's a deeper explanation.

----------


## Schroeswald

I read it as Belkar is running, but its hurting too much (especially in combination with bite) so he falls down, letting Durkula catch up with him and attack him.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I understand that for Belkar PfE "doesn't exactly tickle", but I'm not clear on why that would cause an event only at the moment Durkula catches up to him. There's no evidence of it in any of the other panels where it's active, and while "he rolled a 1" is possible it's not especially satisfying if there are other possibilities or if there's a deeper explanation.


If think the constant loss of hp just took its toll on him.

----------


## arimareiji

> I read it as Belkar is running, but its hurting too much (especially in combination with bite) so he falls down, letting Durkula catch up with him and attack him.





> If think the constant loss of hp just took its toll on him.


Indeed, the Giant doesn't have a problem with tossing exact game mechanics aside when it's needed to tell a better story -- I don't see it here, but as with all things subjective, YMMV.

----------


## Lord Torath

Roy is warning Belkar about being unable to heal damage with no Durkon, but he seems to have forgotten they have access to near unlimited quantities of healing potions.

I mean, _now_ they don't, but I'd be highly surprised if they didn't take as many as they could carry when they left.  And at the time, they were literally on top of the supply.

----------


## danielxcutter

> Roy is warning Belkar about being unable to heal damage with no Durkon, but he seems to have forgotten they have access to near unlimited quantities of healing potions.
> 
> I mean, _now_ they don't, but I'd be highly surprised if they didn't take as many as they could carry when they left.  And at the time, they were literally on top of the supply.


To be fair a) Roy probably doesnt want to drain the Mechanes resources _too_ much(especially since the crew and the rest of the party needs them to heal as well), and b) hes been adventuring longer with Durkon than anyone else I think.

----------


## Fyraltari

Also, he doesn't know that Belkar jumped carrying any potion (who might be destroyed by the fall, even).

----------


## ziproot

The beginning of this strip happened in the past. It is just one of V's memories.

----------


## arimareiji

> The beginning of this strip happened in the past. It is just one of V's memories.


Until recently, I didn't know if V's "nightmares" about Azure City during trance were memories or dreams. With my human bias, I was thinking the latter was equally-or-more likely until I did a careful reread.

----------


## Yanisa

> Until recently, I didn't know if V's "nightmares" about Azure City during trance were memories or dreams. With my human bias, I was thinking the latter was equally-or-more likely until I did a careful reread.


Seeing as V did indeed used Invisibility to flee (Page 2, Panel 7) the battle, that strengthens the idea. Maybe the words turned harsher because of V's poor mental state, but it is based on a memory.

----------


## danielxcutter

Just realized that Durkon's dodging and jumping here is probably helped by scrags being aquatic trolls, which are giants like ogres.

----------


## arimareiji

> Seeing as V did indeed used Invisibility to flee (Page 2, Panel 7) the battle, that strengthens the idea. Maybe the words turned harsher because of V's poor mental state, but it is based on a memory.


That is a freakin' amazing point. Thank you for the reminder that memories stored in meat are much more "flexible" than memories stored on silicon. (^_~)

It's something I tend to forget about, but having previously gotten the chance to later hear recordings of conversations I was invested in, I can attest at least for myself: Given its finite storage capacity, it's much too easy for my brain to overwrite <what someone literally said>, with <what I thought they meant>. Sometimes it's not much of an error (i.e. prior context and/or expression / body language heavily shade the literal words toward the mis-memory), but sometimes it's just plain what my mom used to call "jumping to confusions".

_Edit: Slight reword_

----------


## Emberlily

Comic 677, This Never Happens to Jiminy Cricket (I don't have enough posts to share links)

The magic shop in Sandsedge has a sign inside saying "NO SPELLCASTING!". I'd always figured V got kicked out bc they were _attacking_ a patron with a spell, not just casting one at all.

----------


## Fyraltari

In _Start of Darkness_, Tiamat's line about the Dark One "I think we need some fresh blood around here, to shake things up" was a way for her to get Thor to notice TDO's unique quiddity without giving the game away.

----------


## Metastachydium

(I've just found two strips I haven't seen before.)

----------


## danielxcutter

Unless there was a ritual performed off-screen, the number of rituals here seems to be off.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Unless there was a ritual performed off-screen, the number of rituals here seems to be off.


Maybe it's recursive?

----------


## ti'esar

Yeah, I think that's part of the joke. It's an infinite loop. No _wonder_ Redcloak killed him.

----------


## dancrilis

> Unless there was a ritual performed off-screen, the number of rituals here seems to be off.


Technically the hobgoblin didn't say that 'The ritual of doing the first four rituals over again only slower and while singing' was the ritual after 'the ritual of uncomfortable piercing in private places' - he merely mentioned that is was the one needed to become an honourary hobgoblin.

It is possible that there are dozens of rituals between those two.

----------


## Ron Miel

I always assumed that we are seeing Redcloak performing his second ritual.

----------


## Ruck

I was reading an old thread (I get the urge to once in a while to see how people reacted to a certain development), and someone in the #763 discussion mentioned something I never noticed:




> Okay, everything about the awesomeness of Tarquin has already been said by this point, so I'll cut to something that, as far as I've noticed, HASN'T been brought up. It's a real small detail that speaks volume of the character. Ever notice that, when walking around or just chilling out, Tarquin seems to put his hand behind his back a lot? Normally this could be chalked up to posture or just trying to look cool. However, one must _remember where he keeps his dagger._ He's turned an idle habit and cool pose into a tactical advantage.


And exactly 150 strips later, notice where he casually places his hands toward the end of the strip.

----------


## danielxcutter

_Ooooooooh._  :Small Eek:

----------


## Kornaki

Oh that is pretty cool.

----------


## arimareiji

Something I'd never noticed before: If you open-in-new-tab the first comic of the strip (as a shortcut to go searching back in early strips without losing your place), and you keep a LOT of tabs open, the title might give you the mis-impression that you were just messaged about something. XD

Tab thumb: "*1 New* "

(And if you're not expecting a message and your conscience is hyperactive atm, you might worry it's a mod warning... then be relieved when it's not. I momentarily felt like Ben Affleck in _Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back_, yelling "B******t, I wasn't even with a hooker today, ha-HA!" as everyone else winces. (^_~))

----------


## Ruck

I just had a little moment of sadness when I realized how resistant Roy has been through most of the comic to fill the big brother role for Elan that Elan so clearly wants him to, especially considering Roy has a, not to be crass, vacancy in the little brother department. (And not only that, but Eric would be nearly the same age as Elan, and Roy seems to think he probably would have been a bard, too.)

Hopefully that ultimately is part of Elan's happy ending.

----------


## Fyraltari

To me that is precisely why Roy is willing to put up with Elan so much. Even if he'll die (again) before admitting it.

----------


## arimareiji

> I was reading an old thread (I get the urge to once in a while to see how people reacted to a certain development), and someone in the #763 discussion mentioned something I never noticed:
> 
> And exactly 150 strips later, notice where he casually places his hands toward the end of the strip.


I haven't looked anywhere near carefully enough to be sure... but in hindsight, it seems like it could also be a more general tell. I.e. any time he's considering stabbing someone in the back, even if it's completely metaphorical and a literal dagger would only get in the way, hands behind the back.

Nice detail indeed.

----------


## Ruck

> To me that is precisely why Roy is willing to put up with Elan so much. Even if he'll die (again) before admitting it.


Aww. Well, now I hope Roy coming to realize and accept that about himself is part of the happy ending.

----------


## Peelee

> Aww. Well, now I hope Roy coming to realize and accept that about himself is part of the happy ending.


Too metaphorical. Elan will marry Julia and Roy will literally be his big brother (-in-law). _Obviously_.

----------


## Ruck

> Too metaphorical. Elan will marry Julia and Roy will literally be his big brother (-in-law). _Obviously_.


Elan would have to break up with Haley for that, though, and I do not think that would be very happy.

Or at least I wouldn't be happy. Like Michael Scott talking about being the victim of a hate crime: "That's not what a hate crime is." "Well, *I* hated it!"

----------


## Peelee

> Elan would have to break up with Haley for that


Objection! Assuming facts not in evidence.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## arimareiji

> Objection! Assuming facts not in evidence.


Thank you, the lol was needed. (^_^)b

But technically I think Elan's refusal to date Therkla makes a pretty good case that he'd think he has to, even if Haley is more open-minded about it.

(Unless it was really a much-more-justified-than-usual "It's not you, it's me" attempt to avoid hurting her feelings with outright rejection. Which is possible; I'm not averse to saying we shouldn't always take people's stated motives as being their real ones.)

Edit: Feeling much more devilish than usual, and it occurred to me... you know, Julia did say Nale would be "cute if you shaved off that stupid [goatee]". (^_~)
Editing out edit due to being ninjaed in a good way. (^_^)

----------


## Ruck

> Objection! Assuming facts not in evidence.





> Thank you, the lol was needed. (^_^)b


Yeah, that was good. Even if I can't picture a way that would play out that would make any sense for the characters.  :Small Tongue:  (And you just _know_ Roy would be weird about Elan marrying Julia.)

----------


## arimareiji

> Yeah, that was good. Even if I can't picture a way that would play out that would make any sense for the characters.  (And you just _know_ Roy would be weird about Elan marrying Julia.)


You know, Julia did say Nale would be "cute if you shaved off that stupid [goatee]". And it's not like Julia is averse to doing things that would tweak Roy, just for the fun of it. (^_~)

(Your mileage may vary on whether that's because she actually respects Roy and is rebelling against him as her father figure, because she takes after Eugene, or some weird mixture of both.)

----------


## Peelee

> Yeah, that was good. Even if I can't picture a way that would play out that would make any sense for the characters.  (And you just _know_ Roy would be weird about Elan marrying Julia.)


Well, the prophecy did specify "for you, at least".

But yeah, the Therkla episode does rain on my parade.

----------


## arimareiji

Never noticed before: If I'm reading this right, Sabine thinks V is both male and "old" (panel 6).

----------


## Ruck

> Never noticed before: If I'm reading this right, Sabine thinks V is both male and "old" (panel 6).


Hah, in the same strip where Sabine calls Vaarsuvius "elf dude," Nale calls V "elf chick."

----------


## Yxylu

> But technically I think Elan's refusal to date Therkla makes a pretty good case that he'd think he has to, even if Haley is more open-minded about it.


In the Edition Wars story from Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales, 4E-Haley seems pretty open-minded about, um, dating both 3.5E-Elan and 4E-Elan at the same time.  She seems resistant to including 3.5E-Haley, though.  Not conclusive, but a data point about how one version of Haley thinks.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> In the Edition Wars story from Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales, 4E-Haley seems pretty open-minded about, um, dating both 3.5E-Elan and 4E-Elan at the same time.  She seems resistant to including 3.5E-Haley, though.  Not conclusive, but a data point about how one version of Haley thinks.


Either the idea of dating yourself is weird for most people, or Haley doesn't want to have to share Elan. Haley has her latent bisexuality "self", not to mention she's alluded to having dated girls at least once, but I think this is more Haley wanting Elan to herself.

----------


## arimareiji

> Hah, in the same strip where Sabine calls Vaarsuvius "elf dude," Nale calls V "elf chick."


Ha. (^_^)b

Thank you, not only did I miss that... I also missed flagging this strip for a few other things I meant to bring here but forgot about.
Is the end of this strip also foreshadowing for Linear's combined 417 counts of murder (363:1)?Also: It's weird that Nale finds the thought of Thog on a murderous rampage inside a city scary enough to agree with Sabine that they need to hit the road, but they stay and it apparently becomes part of his plan to frame Elan.The last panel of 142 makes it easy to think of Thog as some hideously-exaggerated "Pet him and pat him and call him George" who accidentally kills his pets. Doing it as many as 416 times in a short time says otherwise.363:2 reminded me Belkon Belkar has changed a lot. Now even Roy praises his wits in figuring out what the party needs, but back in the day jokes premised on his being dumb were fairly common... and here, he casually corrects "Elan" calling him Belkon. (Seems kinda like a waving red flag to me. Though to be fair, in the next strip V only seems annoyed that Nale keeps saying "I'm Elan!" over and over.)

_Edit: Ugh. Correcting URLs et al that I barfungled by getting strip numbers wrong._

----------


## danielxcutter

> Ha. (^_^)b
> 
> Thank you, not only did I miss that... I also missed flagging this strip for a few other things I meant to bring here but forgot about.
> Is the end of this strip also foreshadowing for Linear's combined 417 counts of murder (364:1)?Also: It's weird that Nale finds the thought of Thog on a murderous rampage inside a city scary enough to agree with Sabine that they need to hit the road, but they stay and it apparently becomes part of his plan to frame Elan.The last panel of 142 makes it easy to think of Thog as some hideously-exaggerated "Pet him and pat him and call him George" who accidentally kills his pets. Doing it as many as 416 times in a short time says otherwise.364:2 reminded me Belkon Belkar has changed a lot. Now even Roy praises his wits in figuring out what the party needs, but back in the day jokes premised on his being dumb were fairly common... and here, he casually corrects "Elan" calling him Belkon. (Seems kinda like a waving red flag to me. Though to be fair, in the next strip V only seems annoyed that Nale keeps saying "I'm Elan!" over and over.)


I suspect Nale's fear of rampaging Thog is partly founded in himself and Sabine being caught in it or something. Might be why he decided to ditch Thog as part of framing Elan, actually.

----------


## Kish

> Hah, in the same strip where Sabine calls Vaarsuvius "elf dude," Nale calls V "elf chick."


And later, in the bar when she's disguised as a geisha, she addresses Vaarsuvius as "sister."

----------


## ziproot

A goblin teenager says that goblins are usually neutral evil (panel 2) in OOTS.

----------


## Ruck

> I was reading an old thread (I get the urge to once in a while to see how people reacted to a certain development), and someone in the #763 discussion mentioned something I never noticed:
> 
> 
> 
> And exactly 150 strips later, notice where he casually places his hands toward the end of the strip.


I just noticed he does the same thing in #819, panel 5-- and once you've read the whole strip, it's also obvious that in panel 5 he's looking _at Nale_.

One more: In the happy ending illusion of #887, Durkon has his eyes closed when they're on the flying carpet and destroying the phylactery, as befits his fear of flying.

----------


## WanderingMist

113:7

You can see Eric in panel 7, but then he doesn't make an appearance in panel 9 like he logically should, hinting at his death.

----------


## arimareiji

> One more: In the happy ending illusion of #887, Durkon has his eyes closed when they're on the flying carpet and destroying the phylactery, as befits his fear of flying.


Technically, with all the spells Xykon has on it, it might not destroy the phylactery.

So in a million years or so, he may become someone else's problem after an eruption.

----------


## Ruck

> Technically, with all the spells Xykon has on it, it might not destroy the phylactery.
> 
> So in a million years or so, he may become someone else's problem after an eruption.


Technically, that whole thing is an illusion, so whatever Roy and company believe needs to be done to successfully destroy the phylactery will have been done.

----------


## Peelee

> Technically, that whole thing is an illusion, so whatever Roy and company believe needs to be done to successfully destroy the phylactery will have been done.


Aye. Even if it somehow doesn't destroy the phylactery, how's Xykon gonna regenerate in a pit of lava?

----------


## WanderingMist

> Aye. Even if it somehow doesn't destroy the phylactery, how's Xykon gonna regenerate in a pit of lava?


Very carefully.

----------


## arimareiji

> Aye. Even if it somehow doesn't destroy the phylactery, how's Xykon gonna regenerate in a pit of lava?


Indeed. It seems about as literal of an eternal damnation to "fire and brimstone" as you can get, except for the whole "might get tossed out in a million years".

Geeky question for DM's: Would you just automatically make him a demilich, and may whatever gods still exist take mercy on whoever lives anywhere nearby?

----------


## Peelee

> Indeed. It seems about as literal of an eternal damnation to "fire and brimstone" as you can get, except for the whole "might get tossed out in a million years".
> 
> Geeky question for DM's: Would you just automatically make him a demilich, and may whatever gods still exist take mercy on whoever lives anywhere nearby?


If I were DMing, nope. Sucks to be the lich.

----------


## arimareiji

> If I were DMing, nope. Sucks to be the lich.


I believe in this case, the appropriate expression would be a sarcastic "Couldn't happen to a nicer guy."


Never noticed, and not sure what to make of it:

Haley's speech bubbles change color when she tells Ian he didn't screw up her life, near the end of 774, which seems to indicate she's using the potion's magic to convince him of a lie. Not unexpected since I'd always thought that speech bubble was part of a very sad joke, with the punch line being the last panel: "The potion only works on things that *aren't* true."

But her speech bubble is still potion-colored in the last panel.

Accidental slip on the part of the Giant, or was her speech bubble in the last panel a perhaps-paradoxical lie?

----------


## Ruck

> I believe in this case, the appropriate expression would be a sarcastic "Couldn't happen to a nicer guy."
> 
> 
> Never noticed, and not sure what to make of it:
> 
> Haley's speech bubbles change color when she tells Ian he didn't screw up her life, near the end of 774, which seems to indicate she's using the potion's magic to convince him of a lie. Not unexpected since I'd always thought that speech bubble was part of a very sad joke, with the punch line being the last panel: "The potion only works on things that *aren't* true."
> 
> But her speech bubble is still potion-colored in the last panel.
> 
> Accidental slip on the part of the Giant, or was her speech bubble in the last panel a perhaps-paradoxical lie?


The speech bubble is still colored because the potion is still active. It doesn't strictly mean she has to be lying when she speaks-- any more than she was lying in the second-to-last panel of #767. At least, that's how I interpret it.

----------


## arimareiji

> The speech bubble is still colored because the potion is still active. It doesn't strictly mean she has to be lying when she speaks-- any more than she was lying in the second-to-last panel of #767. At least, that's how I interpret it.


True, but her speech bubbles in the previous panels are white... and I just noticed that in 768, there's a gradient of them fading from potion-colored to white when she tells Elan the presumable truth in panel 3. Curiouser and curiouser. (^_^)

----------


## Kornaki

> True, but her speech bubbles in the previous panels are white... and I just noticed that in 768, there's a gradient of them fading from potion-colored to white when she tells Elan the presumable truth in panel 3. Curiouser and curiouser. (^_^)


They become colored again when they leave the anti magic zone.  She probably deliberately steps over the line before lying to her father.

The bubble changes in the panel when she is literally crossing the line as she speaks.

----------


## arimareiji

> They become colored again when they leave the anti magic zone.  She probably deliberately steps over the line before lying to her father.
> 
> The bubble changes in the panel when she is literally crossing the line as she speaks.


Thank you! This made perfect sense, once I went back to look through with this in mind. (^_^)b

----------


## snowblizz

> Thank you! This made perfect sense, once I went back to look through with this in mind. (^_^)b


Lol. Was just about to post this after reading the first post then seeing it was in fact answered. It's good when you remember to read to the finish before posting. And not get distracted and reply to something off page 1 of a 20 page thread.

It's a very neat trick of interaction there, always enjoyed it.

----------


## Fyraltari

While Minrah and Hilgya are both blondes, Minrah's hair is paler.

----------


## danielxcutter

Kudzu is making an Ooo face and reaching for Roys Bag of Tricks here.

----------


## arimareiji

> Lol. Was just about to post this after reading the first post then seeing it was in fact answered. It's good when you remember to read to the finish before posting. And not get distracted and reply to something off page 1 of a 20 page thread.
> 
> It's a very neat trick of interaction there, always enjoyed it.


Ditto, and ditto. I was glad to have had my understanding of it expanded. (^_^)b
(Wrt first ditto, yup... but sometimes it's sooooo tempting, especially when it's a new discussion thread.)


*Spoiler: bad followup joke to the "Xykon's phylactery got dropped in lava" threadlet*
Show





> Technically, with all the spells Xykon has on it, it might not destroy the phylactery.
> 
> So in a million years or so, he may become someone else's problem after an eruption.


Oh crap. Anyone who so much as has Green in their name, let alone Greenhilt... might be a good idea to change it, or hide, or both.




I think I saw something that looks like Redcloak's holy symbol come flying out, and if you thought Xykon was *-opathic any time he got bored in Azure City... imagine how he's gonna feel after a million years of watching bits of himself regenerate only to be instantly charred to powder. (^_~)

----------


## Ruck

In #174 (panel 6), Gortok gives Miko the same "pamphlet" he gave Belkar in #132.

----------


## arimareiji

> In #174 (panel 6), Gortok gives Miko the same "pamphlet" he gave Belkar in #132.


Never noticed, panel 5 isn't actually the Order's fault. And I'm so very happy to find out Thog didn't put "puppy" down when they left, because that orc is a lot more jacked up than I had thought through until recently.

----------


## Fyraltari

Vaarsuvius uses gendered language (mister) when adressing Zz'dtri.

----------


## ti'esar

There's never really been any question about the fact that Z is male, if only because he's a joke about preexisting characters.

(Unless your point was more that it's odd for V to identify someone's gender, but I don't think that's really a common area of confusion either.)

----------


## Lord Torath

Everyone (who reads the comic) remembers that there's a Forget spell over the Oracle's valley.

I forgot he actually warns everyone about it (Panel 7).

----------


## danielxcutter

> Everyone (who reads the comic) remembers that there's a Forget spell over the Oracle's valley.
> 
> I forgot he actually warns everyone about it (Panel 7).


...Uh, that link is borked.

----------


## Lord Torath

> ...Uh, that link is borked.


Whoops!  Fixed.

Thanks for the heads-up!

----------


## Kornaki

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html

Panel 4 appears to highlight some writing on the wall "alive, in danger with belkar"
There's certainly an accurate description of the rogue in that panel.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> ...Uh, that link is borked.


It seems Rake Arms are a vital part of Oracle foresight!

----------


## danielxcutter

> It seems Rake Arms are a vital part of Oracle foresight!


...Rake whats?

----------


## ti'esar

> ...Rake whats?


The URL you originally quoted. It ends with "Rake Arm.pdf".

Which is an intriguing name, but I'm leery about clicking on random links, so your guess is as good as mine as to what they actually are.

----------


## danielxcutter

> The URL you originally quoted. It ends with "Rake Arm.pdf".
> 
> Which is an intriguing name, but I'm leery about clicking on random links, so your guess is as good as mine as to what they actually are.


It basically lead to nowhere for me, so I dunno what they are either.

----------


## Lord Torath

Geez, way to blow a simple copy/paste error _way_ out of proportion.  Link is fixed.  Carry on!

----------


## arimareiji

Extreme long shot, but Bel*kar* and *Kar*en might be more than just a coincidence. (^_~)

----------


## mjp1050

> Extreme long shot, but Bel*kar* and *Kar*en might be more than just a coincidence. (^_~)


Unlikely, considering that "Belkar" pre-dates "Karen" as an Internet phenomenon by about 14 years.

----------


## arimareiji

> Unlikely, considering that "Belkar" pre-dates "Karen" as an Internet phenomenon by about 14 years.


Reminder to self: Never make jokes that aren't also literally true in this forum. (^_^)°

----------


## Ruck

Xykon (panel 8) predicts a problem Redcloak and Jirix will have (page 2, panel 1).

(sort of.)

----------


## Lord Torath

I need to start reading more carefully.  After reading the current strip No Strings multiple times, I only just now saw that Elan's first explanation of what happened to Lutey was that Elan cast Wish to bring it to life.   :Small Amused:

----------


## ORione

We've now had two times when an Order member was replaced with an evil look-alike.  I just noticed, both times Belkar was the first one to notice.

----------


## danielxcutter

> We've now had two times when an Order member was replaced with an evil look-alike.  I just noticed, both times Belkar was the first one to notice.


_Huh._ Youre right.

----------


## TheWombatOfDoom

> We've now had two times when an Order member was replaced with an evil look-alike.  I just noticed, both times Belkar was the first one to notice.


And both times he was charmed to get out of it.

----------


## danielxcutter

> And both times he was charmed to get out of it.


Technically vampire gazes are based on Dominate effects rather than Charm, but still mind-controlling effect.

----------


## TheWombatOfDoom

> Technically vampire gazes are based on Dominate effects rather than Charm, but still mind-controlling effect.


I knew i'd get called on it, but couldn't settle on a better word.

----------


## Lord Torath

Technically...

On topic, I never noticed Hank tumbling out of the way of Yor's charge in panel 8.

----------


## Cicciograna

I just noticed that, while in panel 3 of second page Eugene was clearly mocking Roy and making a punny reference to Dragon Ball Z, at the end of day Roy actually DID end up training with the secret martial artist.

----------


## arimareiji

> On topic, I never noticed Hank tumbling out of the way of Yor's charge in panel 8.


Thank you - I had noticed it, but was confused because I didn't make the connection.

----------


## Metastachydium

It just dawned upon me that Baleful Polymorph is only ever shown producing lizards.

----------


## Ruck

I just realized that both Elan and Therkla have spots where they imagine Therkla as a superhero-- and both spots are Batman-connected, at that.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I just realized that both Elan and Therkla have spots where they imagine Therkla as a superhero-- and both spots are Batman-connected, at that.


Therka's fantasy is simply a continuation of Elan's... let's say theorizing, that she overheard hence the "I came away with a great deal of information I need to consider."

----------


## Ruck

> Therka's fantasy is simply a continuation of Elan's... let's say theorizing, that she overheard hence the "I came away with a great deal of information I need to consider."


Well, given that I kinda glossed over the connection in the first place, no surprise I also didn't connect that part.

----------


## Precure

> We've now had two times when an Order member was replaced with an evil look-alike.  I just noticed, both times Belkar was the first one to notice.


He probably noticed first that V's turning to dark side too.

----------


## Metastachydium

Apparently, there's an intrinsic connection between bakers and wizardry.

----------


## danielxcutter

> Apparently, there's an intrinsic connection between bakers and wizardry.


Well, there WAS Fruit Pie the Sorcerer

----------


## Yanisa

> Apparently, there's an intrinsic connection between bakers and wizardry.


Also

The humble doily is indeed the gateway to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER!!

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Apparently, there's an intrinsic connection between bakers and wizardry.



Clearly Inky is actually a level 10 Wizard, but has sworn a vow to only use baking-related spells.

----------


## b_jonas

> Clearly Inky is actually a level 10 Wizard, but has sworn a vow to only use baking-related spells.


Maybe, but even so, if he were willing to make an exception for saving his children, what preparations could a level 10 elf wizard do against an ancient black dragon sorcerer who uses antimagic shell?

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Maybe, but even so, if he were willing to make an exception for saving his children, what preparations could a level 10 elf wizard do against an ancient black dragon sorcerer who uses antimagic shell?


Greater Teleport to Aandirius.

----------


## arimareiji

We're getting sorta used to Semi-Reformed Belkar, but could Belkar have been overcome by sentiment as far back as 645?

When they parted, Belkar hated V (which V actually took great pains to maintain, after The Incident). Or at least, was dedicated to making their life miserable if possible.

But in 645, when "Darth Vaarsuvius" reappears... is Belkar so glad to see V that he completely breaks character? I 'm fairly sure it really boils down to "because it helped set up a couple of the better jokes of the strip" rather than Deep Story Reasons  :Small Amused: , but Belkar had no reason to speak up and rescue V from Haley's questions.

In fact, it would have been simple to faux-object "Hey, even if V did go evil that's not necessarily a bad thing! Look at me as an example!"

_Edit: Ack. Forgot to add link._

----------


## Ruck

It was right after his vision quest, so he might have been testing out the "team player" thing in a way that still let him indulge his Chaotic Evil impulses. (Or, of course, just tricking a teammate into tacitly accepting something Evil, because he thinks that's funny.)

----------


## Metastachydium

1. Belkar still thinks that being Evil is a good thing;
2. but he's just learned that being _subtly_ Evil, without others noticing the deviant behaviour is an even _better_ thing;
so, when he sees a fellow Evil creature and he sees that this fellow Evil creature is playing the same game he does (i.e. pretending they do no not have deviant impulses), he lends them a little aid out of solidarity (since they have a similar outlook and they are in a similar situation). After all, Belkar has demonstrated having respect for what he perceives as Evil way before that, as well as having a clear intention of trying to convert others to the greater cause of Evil.

----------


## DataNinja

In 806 I never got Elan's joke in the 10th panel. It was only now that I got "ohhhh they're all _hole_-y words".

----------


## snowblizz

> In 806 I never got Elan's joke in the 10th panel. It was only now that I got "ohhhh they're all _hole_-y words".


That strip reminds me of something I, not unreasonably, didn't notice until later. The spell fails because it's a tampered version Malack taught Durkon. Not sure I made the connection back when Malack's double nature was revealed.

----------


## danielxcutter

> That strip reminds me of something I, not unreasonably, didn't notice until later. The spell fails because it's a tampered version Malack taught Durkon. Not sure I made the connection back when Malack's double nature was revealed.


If it was just because of that, Durkon wouldnt have been able to cast it ever.

----------


## Peelee

> If it was just because of that, Durkon wouldnt have been able to cast it ever.


Yeah, Malack didn't tamper with it to fail, he tampered with it to be dispelled on command (albeit a command only Malack knew). Has nothing to do with it not going off there.

----------


## snowblizz

> Yeah, Malack didn't tamper with it to fail,


That's not what I said.

I say the spell is now non-standard and the higher-ups have trouble parsing the the spell.

----------


## Peelee

> That's not what I said.
> 
> I say the spell is now non-standard and the higher-ups have trouble parsing the the spell.


Sorry, that was unclear to me. Though I also don't think your actual interpretation is accurate either.

----------


## Squire Doodad

The most coherent explanation I have for that scene is that Durkon said it with a really deep accent (maybe like "Mass Deff Wourd"), and the celestials misheard it.

----------


## Peelee

Imean, in-comic, it's an invented spell that Durkon never tried before that Thor and his staff presumably never heard before. I have no problem with it failing through narrative with all that going on.

----------


## Squire Doodad

Sounds about right.

----------


## locksmith of lo

i just just noticed that roy's little brother is playing with black dragon toy foreshadowing the appearance of the black dragon 26 pages later.  :Small Smile:

----------


## littlebum2002

> Imean, in-comic, it's an invented spell that Durkon never tried before that Thor and his staff presumably never heard before. I have no problem with it failing through narrative with all that going on.


So I guess in this universe, if a Cleric wants to learn a new spell, both them and their deity need to learn it for it to work, and Thor was probably just too lazy to learn it until after Durkon tried casting it for the first time.

----------


## Dewin Dwl

I've just noticed that in #809, where Roy is putting his armour back on, the shirt is two-dimensional and flat, as it it were an outfit for a paper doll.

----------


## Ron Miel

It isn't a shirt, it's armour.  It has a front plate and a back plate. You can see the back plate as a blue line on Roy's left side.

----------


## Dewin Dwl

> It isn't a shirt, it's armour.  It has a front plate and a back plate. You can see the back plate as a blue line on Roy's left side.


I used the term "shirt" only to refer to the torso part (i.e. not the shoulders or legs). I wasn't thinking of a chain shirt, but it was a bad choice of words on my part.

But substitute the word "shirt" for "plate", and my point still stands: the front plate is drawn as absolutely flat with no curve to it, suggesting Roy has a similarly 2D torso. It sort of suits a stick-person, of course.

----------


## Bookwyrm13

Don't even know if this is intentional, or how common they would be in the first place, but I just realized that in 1170, Thor basically got Hel to concede the souls of any dwarves who theoretically might have been killed by Familicide.

----------


## Mike Havran

> Don't even know if this is intentional, or how common they would be in the first place, but I just realized that in 1170, Thor basically got Hel to concede the souls of any dwarves who theoretically might have been killed by Familicide.


Given that the Giant said that the Draketooths were the only case of Black Dragon mating with a human (presumably also with a humanoid) and Dwarves do not usually inhabit Western continent, I think chances are that not a single Dwarf was killed by the spell.

----------


## Bookwyrm13

> Given that the Giant said that the Draketooths were the only case of Black Dragon mating with a human (presumably also with a humanoid) and Dwarves do not usually inhabit Western continent, I think chances are that not a single Dwarf was killed by the spell.


As I recall, he explicitly said that black dragons *had* mated with other species of humanoid before, just not humans (and that other kinds of dragons had mated with humans as well)?

(I also recall it being a sort of off the cuff, spite-based Word of God retcon designed to shut up a rather tedious, nitpicky argument on another thread, but I understand that doesn't necessarily make it less canon)

But either way, yes, the odds are very low, but it's nice that any theoretical statistical outliers were saved. :Small Wink:

----------


## TuringTest

This one probably has been said before, but:

In 330, panel 8 the Oracle is casually advancing two major plot points for both characters by half a book and two books respectively.

----------


## hroþila

I think he's just referring to the Cliffport side quest involving Nale and Julia.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I think he's just referring to the Cliffport side quest involving Nale and Julia.


That depends if meant "a pair of family reunions" between the two of them or "a pair of family reunions" *each*.










Aren't prophecies _fun_!?

----------


## TuringTest

> I think he's just referring to the Cliffport side quest involving Nale and Julia.


It could well be, but the former is far more ominous.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## dmc91356

Not sure if this fits in here as it was certainly something I noticed, but did not give a tremendous amount of thought to:

In https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html Redcloak takes Tsukiko's ring away from her because it was protecting her from the wights' touch.  Anyone have any ideas on whether that will possibly give Redcloak some sort of protection if he winds up throwing down directly with Xykon?

----------


## Peelee

> Not sure if this fits in here as it was certainly something I noticed, but did not give a tremendous amount of thought to:
> 
> In https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html Redcloak takes Tsukiko's ring away from her because it was protecting her from the wights' touch.  Anyone have any ideas on whether that will possibly give Redcloak some sort of protection if he winds up throwing down directly with Xykon?


Ooooh, I never thought of that. And I think you're absolutely on the right track.

----------


## danielxcutter

I mean Redcloak _can_ just cast Death Ward on himself but it might come into play yeah.

----------


## Timy

> I mean Redcloak _can_ just cast Death Ward on himself but it might come into play yeah.


I am not very 3.5 savy but a death ward is just a delaying tactic against an epic lich with superb dispelling while (I think it works like that) a ring will continue to work unless it is specifically targeted.

----------


## FeeFoFum

Just spotted the names of the gelatinous cubes in the race in  #1114

"Dessert Rider": possibly a reference to the near eastern desert Lokum,
   which often is cube-shaped, gelatinous and half-transparent

"Jiggly Picasso": because Picasso was  a Cubist!

Brilliant

----------


## TheWombatOfDoom

> Just spotted the names of the gelatinous cubes in the race in  #1114
> 
> "Dessert Rider": possibly a reference to the near eastern desert Lokum,
>    which often is cube-shaped, gelatinous and half-transparent
> 
> "Jiggly Picasso": because Picasso was  a Cubist!
> 
> Brilliant


I thought Dessert Rider was just a reference to Jello.

----------


## Ruck

I've definitely noticed this before, but didn't figure out how to word it until now: I really like this strip for how the three particular members of the Order express their appreciation for Kenny Rogers, all for specific, perfectly-in-character reasons: Haley because she's a gambler; Elan because he's a bard; and Belkar because he has a sophisticated halfling palate.

----------


## Peelee

> I've definitely noticed this before, but didn't figure out how to word it until now: I really like this strip for how the three particular members of the Order express their appreciation for Kenny Rogers, all for specific, perfectly-in-character reasons: Haley because she's a gambler; Elan because he's a bard; and Belkar because he has a sophisticated halfling palate.


Ohhh, I like that one. Subtle, but clever.

----------


## Quebbster

When Durkon retrieves the Hammer of Loki Sucks, he says _"It's aboot time fer some destruction."_ Then, it turns out his plan to stop Hel hinges on actual destruction, in a very literal sense. Pretty neat way to fulfill the prophecy.

----------


## Mad Humanist

> Just spotted the names of the gelatinous cubes in the race in  #1114
> 
> "Dessert Rider": possibly a reference to the near eastern desert Lokum,
>    which often is cube-shaped, gelatinous and half-transparent
> 
> "Jiggly Picasso": because Picasso was  a Cubist!
> 
> Brilliant





> I thought Dessert Rider was just a reference to Jello.


I have to admit I did not quite get the Jiggly Picasso thing. I found it funny at the time and that was enough. Thanks for actually spelling out the joke.

However I am pretty sure you are over-complicating the "Dessert Rider" joke. The phrase "Desert Rider" had a familiar ring to it. I suspect I heard it as an apparently rather unsuccessful racehorse: Desert Rider. I am not interested in racehorsing but I imagine I did hear the name back when I used to listen to the radio a lot.

I suspect the original reference is to desert racing.

However my guess is that the Giant was thinking of the 1923 Silent film.

----------


## Rhanddom

Newish reader, looking back at various plot arcs after a full binge read a couple of months ago.  I previously missed the applicability of Roy's philosophizing in comic 836 to Belkar's upcoming star turn.  I'm not a betting man, but if I were, I'd lay steep odds that there's a halfling family tree reveal ahead.

Applicability to the MitD?  TBD.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I'm not a betting man, but if I were, I'd lay steep odds that there's a halfling family tree reveal ahead.


You're better off that way, since you'd most likely lose quite the sum (v. answer no. 7).

----------


## Ruck

"Lay steep odds" would mean finding it very unlikely to happen.

I am not sure if that was the meaning Rhanddom intended.

----------


## Rhanddom

> You're better off that way, since you'd most likely lose quite the sum (v. answer no. 7).


Thanks for the link.  Perhaps I would; I'm lousy at estimating odds outside my fairly narrow domains of knowledge, which is a small part of why I'm not a betting man.

In any case, I'm not saying I expect Grannie Bitterleaf, Aunt Judy, and Belkar's seven least favorite two-thirds-cousins to make a sudden appearance in-comic.  But then I'm not expecting a redemptive arc as such for him either.  Belkar's more interesting as a sort of Caine of Amber un-hero.  I just think it would fit the Giant's narrative style to give us some sort of glimpse into what meaning Belkar himself retcons onto his having fallen in with the Order.  (The prequel summary suggests that it was straight up path of least resistance; but then that's 99.78% of all our choices, right?  And yet we still make up agency-filled stories about how we got to where we are.)

----------


## littlebum2002

I just noticed that, when Roy comes back to life, he tells Haley about Belkar's death prophecy and she acts like she already know about it, but I don't see how she could.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html

----------


## Fyraltari

> I just noticed that, when Roy comes back to life, he tells Haley about Belkar's death prophecy and she acts like she already know about it, but I don't see how she could.
> 
> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html


I think The Giant simply didn't want to clutter the page with Roy explaining the memory charm business since the audience is already familiar with it, and we can assume Haley gets a clearer explanation between panels 7 and 8.

----------


## FeeFoFum

> I have to admit I did not quite get the Jiggly Picasso thing. I found it funny at the time and that was enough. Thanks for actually spelling out the joke.
> 
> However I am pretty sure you are over-complicating the "Dessert Rider" joke. The phrase "Desert Rider" had a familiar ring to it. I suspect I heard it as an apparently rather unsuccessful racehorse: _URLdeleted_ . I am not interested in racehorsing but I imagine I did hear the name back when I used to listen to the radio a lot.
> 
> I suspect the original reference is to _URLdeleted._
> 
> However my guess is that the Giant was thinking of the _URLdeleted_.


You're probably right about the Lokum, it's rather far-fetched. Thanks for the research on
Dessert Rider!

----------


## Peelee

> I just noticed that, when Roy comes back to life, he tells Haley about Belkar's death prophecy and she acts like she already know about it, but I don't see how she could.
> 
> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html


She may have just assumed that they didn't need to stick around with him after defeating Xykon. Roy is hardly explicit there, after all.

----------


## Fyraltari

> She may have just assumed that they didn't need to stick around with him after defeating Xykon. Roy is hardly explicit there, after all.


"Pretty soon, Belkar's fate will be someone else's problem. Someone bony with a black robe and a big scythe."

I'd say that's explicit enough.

----------


## Peelee

> "Pretty soon, Belkar's fate will be someone else's problem. Someone bony with a black robe and a big scythe."
> 
> I'd say that's explicit enough.


Fair. I was just looking at the panel 2 ahead of that one. My bad.

----------


## littlebum2002

Nale thinks that Belkar is the only member of the Order who wont see through his disguise, but Belkar ends up being the only member to see through it.

----------


## ziproot

> Nale thinks that Belkar is the only member of the Order who wont see through his disguise, but Belkar ends up being the only member to see through it.


Wait, he's also the only one to see through Durkon*.

----------


## Precure

For some reason, I thought until today that the old guy in the last panel is Gary Gygax, Arneson's partner in the creation of D&D, but today I noticed that it's just Arneson himself as an old guy.

----------


## Fyraltari

The hobgoblins put the heads of Azurite soldiers on the walls of Gobbotopia.

----------


## Metastachydium

> The hobgoblins put the heads of Azurite soldiers on the walls of Gobbotopia.


and judging by the colour of those, they likely cast Gentle Repose on them at some point, which is kind of creepy.

----------


## Fyraltari

> and judging by the colour of those, they likely cast Gentle Repose on them at some point, which is kind of creepy.


Creepier than them regularly finding fresh heads?

----------


## Metastachydium

> Creepier than them regularly finding fresh heads?


Not neccesseraly, no (but I'm glad you brought that up: now you know how _I_ feel whenever I see fresh flowers in a vase!). Tht doesn't, however, make preserving the body parts of slain sapient creatures as grotesque trophies displayed publicly less of an unsettling thought, now does it?

----------


## Verdruss

In #980, Grubwiggler talks about the emotions and that you can't decide which ones you want and which ones you don't. Which is also very applicable to the method of defeating Durkon*.

----------


## Ruck

> In #980, Grubwiggler talks about the emotions and that you can't decide which ones you want and which ones you don't. Which is also very applicable to the method of defeating Durkon*.


Oooh, that's the kind of tasty observation I read this thread for.

----------


## enq

Yokyok is holding the rapier with his left hand.

Now, I think in the final showdown in the movie, Inigo uses his right from the start. But, I can't help but wonder if Yokyok was narratively prepared for the "I am not left-handed" line.

----------


## ziproot

The Vector Legion is named that way due to it being in the same area as the Linear Guild. "Vector" and "Linear" are related terms, and so are "Guild" and "Legion."

----------


## Peelee

> The Vector Legion is named that way due to it being in the same area as the Linear Guild. "Vector" and "Linear" are related terms, and so are "Guild" and "Legion."


Those, and the Order of the Stick, are all based on the art style.

----------


## danielxcutter

And the Order of the Scribble.

----------


## Precure

All four of them are also six member teams.

----------


## mjp1050

The artifact the fiends are talking about might be the chalice that Qarr mentioned. 

It's either a Chekhov's Gun a decade in the making, or a throwaway line that was only meant to give Qarr some character. One of the two.

----------


## NoHaxJustPi

> The artifact the fiends are talking about might be the chalice that Qarr mentioned. 
> 
> It's either a Chekhov's Gun a decade in the making, or a throwaway line that was only meant to give Qarr some character. One of the two.


Qarr says his supervisor wants the chalice, but next strip says the IFCC aren't his regular supervisors, so it seems like just a throwaway line.

----------


## danielxcutter

In the latest comic, you can see V's eyebrow is in the "annoyed" position in the last panel.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Qarr says his supervisor wants the chalice, but next strip says the IFCC aren't his regular supervisors, so it seems like just a throwaway line.


Agreed; chalice is likely irrelevant or at best a brick joke.
Unless it's going to turn out to be some named main source demonic artifact able to transfer a mind across the veil of death ("Chalice of Lazarus" or something?), but I don't think that Chekov's Gun is loaded.

----------


## Lord Torath

I only just noticed that CCPD-Sabine has red CCPD letters on her uniform instead of blue.

----------


## watersnap

In #790, V says that throwing the figurine onto a "firm surface" will restore Haley to her original size. In the end, landing on the two lawyers (a law _firm_) restores her to her original size.

----------


## danielxcutter

You have caused me immense pain with that revelation.

----------


## Fyraltari

> In #790, V says that throwing the figurine onto a "firm surface" will restore Haley to her original size. In the end, landing on the two lawyers (a law _firm_) restores her to her original size.


That would have been genius, but unfortunately it was the wall that did the trick.

----------


## watersnap

> That would have been genius, but unfortunately it was the wall that did the trick.


<Man! I knew I should have double checked!

----------


## Precure

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html

Xykon's appendage (?) is inside of O-Chul's mouth.

----------


## danielxcutter

Yeah I'm pretty sure his idea was to detonate the Meteor Swarm point blank and blow their heads off.

----------


## snowblizz

> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html
> 
> Xykon's appendage (?) is inside of O-Chul's mouth.


Have you ever seen a movie where the characters put the barrel inside the mouth of someone? That's what you are seeing in this scene. Xykon is even making pistolfingers

----------


## Fyraltari

Eugene Greenhilt's first name could be translated, if you squint a little*, as "good family". He's anything but.

*It means "well-born" as in "coming from good stock" but the root words are _eu_ (good) and _genos_ (race/family/people).

----------


## littlebum2002

I always thought Belkar saying "Don't lean in, he's got a poison tooth" was directed to V, telling V to keep Belkar away from the worm's poison tooth. But a recent re-read of Dune reminded me that it is not the worm that has a poison tooth but Leto Atreides

----------


## Fyraltari

> I always thought Belkar saying "Don't lean in, he's got a poison tooth" was directed to V, telling V to keep Belkar away from the worm's poison tooth. But a recent re-read of Dune reminded me that it is not the worm that has a poison tooth but Leto Atreides


Which implies that Belkar roots for *the Baron*. Maybe he identifies?

----------


## Lord Torath

Yeah, that took me a couple of read-throughs to pick up on, too.  Of _course_ Belkar would root for the Harkonnens.

----------


## danielxcutter

Why, what are they like?

----------


## Fyraltari

> Why, what are they like?


The Baron Harkonnen (and to some extent the rest of his family) is meant to represent everything wrong with humanity. He had basically every flaw you can think of. He is selfish, vengeful, cruel, petty, extremely greedy (to the point he needs antigravity devices to support his obese body), dishonest, prideful, arrogant, vain and is a paedophiliac rapist with incestuous desires.
At one point a character sees him and mentally quotes a religious text about the bringer of the apocalypse.

All in all, he is interesting as a villain solely from how over-the-top he is.

Edit: the first _Dune_ novel has, as a central conflict, the struggle between the House Atreides (the protagonists) and the House Harkonnen. The Harkonnens are meant to be 100% in the wrong.

----------


## danielxcutter

> The Baron Harkonnen (and to some extent the rest of his family) is meant to represent everything wrong with humanity. He had basically every flaw you can think of. He is selfish, vengeful, cruel, petty, extremely greedy (to the point he needs antigravity devices to support his obese body), dishonest, prideful, arrogant, vain and is a paedophiliac rapist with incestuous desires.
> At one point a character sees him and mentally quotes a religious text about the bringer of the apocalypse.
> 
> All in all, he is interesting as a villain solely from how over-the-top he is.
> 
> Edit: the first _Dune_ novel has, as a central conflict, the struggle between the House Atreides (the protagonists) and the House Harkonnen. The Harkonnens are meant to be 100% in the wrong.


Yeesh, not a lot of villains have _that_ many vices.

----------


## Ron Miel

> Which implies that Belkar roots for *the Baron*. Maybe he identifies?


I think that Belkar IS the Baron.

https://i.giantitp.com/bcx/Misspelled003.gif

----------


## ti'esar

Now I'm reminded of one of my favorite joke (...hopefully?) theories ever: Belkar will 'cheat' his death prophecy by being sent back in time to become Baron Pineapple, contender for the Order of the Scribble's dumbest villain ever, as foreshadowed by him wielding them against Tsukiko's wights. (He'll then die naturally sometime in the current year of old age, in case you were wondering.)

----------


## Laurentio III

> Now I'm reminded of one of my favorite joke (...hopefully?) theories ever: Belkar will 'cheat' his death prophecy by being sent back in time to become Baron Pineapple, contender for the Order of the Scribble's dumbest villain ever, as foreshadowed by him wielding them against Tsukiko's wights. (He'll then die naturally sometime in the current year of old age, in case you were wondering.)


Wait, you mean that he isn't Serini after failing to kill a dozen of bugbears and turning into a frilly teenager?

----------


## ZhonLord

When Durkon had his flashback to being thrown out, I was confused as to how he went from robe to armor so quickly. I missed until now that the campfire cursing was later in the week, when Durkon would have had time to think and gather resources. 

Makes his despairing "Ta Hel with ye!" all the more sorrowful when it wasn't just a spur of the moment outburst... It was after several days of built up despair over realizing it's really happening, he's really exiled.

----------


## Lord Torath

> When Durkon had his flashback to being thrown out, I was confused as to how he went from robe to armor so quickly. I missed until now that the campfire cursing was later in the week, when Durkon would have had time to think and gather resources. 
> 
> Makes his despairing "Ta Hel with ye!" all the more sorrowful when it wasn't just a spur of the moment outburst... It was after several days of built up despair over realizing it's really happening, he's really exiled.


Also note that they tossed his armor and hammer out after him.  This is very explicit in On the Origin of PCs, but you can also see his armor coming at him at the top left of the second page (that weird thing that looks vaguely like the head of Sam the Eagle in his memory 'window').

----------


## Fyraltari

> Also note that they tossed his armor and hammer out after him.  This is very explicit in On the Origin of PCs, but you can also see his armor coming at him at the top left of the second page (that weird thing that looks vaguely like the head of Sam the Eagle in his memory 'window').


This is still such a neat visual gag, very discreet but you can definitely tell what's going to happen.

----------


## Fyraltari

The name of Elan's former employer is "Sir Fran*c*ois", and not "Sir Fran*ç*ois", as I always read it.

----------


## Metastachydium

> The name of Elan's former employer is "Sir Fran*c*ois", and not "Sir Fran*ç*ois", as I always read it.


(I've always mentally pronounced it in the French way, incidentally (while secretly hoping it's actually pronounced /frankw'i:s/).)

----------


## Peelee

> The name of Elan's former employer is "Sir Fran*c*ois", and not "Sir Fran*ç*ois", as I always read it.


English doesn't use diacritics, so it's almost certainly still pronounced as François despite being spelled Francois.

At the very least, ain't no way its pronounced "fran-koyz".

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> English doesn't use diacritics, so it's almost certainly still pronounced as François despite being spelled Francois.
> 
> At the very least, ain't no way its pronounced "fran-koyz".


Honestly, having regular names mispronounced does make for pretty good fantasy names. Francois (Fran-koyz), James (Ra-mess), Mickael (Mee-kay-hull) or Charles (Karleez)

----------


## Metastachydium

> Honestly, having regular names mispronounced does make for pretty good fantasy names. Francois (Fran-koyz), James (Ra-mess), Mickael (Mee-kay-hull) or Charles (Karleez)


Indeed! I'd probably go with /'mitskæl/ and /'xarles/, /'kharlεs/ or, heck, even /'χaRlεz/ for the latter too.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Honestly, having regular names mispronounced does make for pretty good fantasy names. Francois (Fran-koyz), James (Ra-mess), Mickael (Mee-kay-hull) or Charles (Karleez)


G. R. R. Martin? Is that you?

----------


## Laurentio III

Tolkien is the undiscussed master of writing a name in a way and then telling readers that is pronunced in a totally, unexpected way.
"Yes, in english you _would_ call him Smaug, but, actually..."

----------


## Metastachydium

> G. R. R. Martin? Is that you?


Wait, he provides guidelines for pronouncing his cosmetically altered names?




> Tolkien is the undiscussed master of writing a name in a way and then telling readers that is pronunced in a totally, unexpected way.
> "Yes, in english you _would_ call him Smaug, but, actually..."


Come again?
So far as I know, most of Tolkien's names that are not "translated" to Modern English are spelled phonetically with very consistent phoneme/grapheme correspondences.

----------


## Laurentio III

> Come again?
> So far as I know, most of Tolkien's names that are not "translated" to Modern English are spelled phonetically with very consistent phoneme/grapheme correspondences.


I read for fun a few guide to names in Lord of the Rings, and seemed quite complicated. (Linked one below, but there are a few).
Consider that I'm italian, and my first language is often "pronunced as written". So I need phonetical guides for names in other languages.

*Spoiler*
Show

https://ethosinterrupted.wordpress.c...-j-r-r-tolkien

----------


## Metastachydium

> I read for fun a few guide to names in Lord of the Rings, and seemed quite complicated. (Linked one below, but there are a few).
> Consider that I'm italian, and my first language is often "pronunced as written". So I need phonetical guides for names in other languages.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> https://ethosinterrupted.wordpress.c...-j-r-r-tolkien


Yes, your not having English as your first language makes me even more baffled. And no, there's nothing complicated about pronouncing words phonetically and not altering what a given grapheme represents based on its position within a word or largely as a whim. You might want to go over the guide you've just linked again; all it tells is basically "unlike English, Tolkien's names work on a one letter, one pronounciation basis". It's all incredibly consistent and straightforward. Heck, if you substituted _k_-s for _c_-s, words would look much the same if transliterated into IPA symbols.

----------


## Eric the White

> Yeesh, not a lot of villains have _that_ many vices.


I never really saw the Baron as the villain in Dune. He starts as the inciting force. (He and the Emperor cause the plot the happen) After that he's really just a foil for his nephew.

----------


## Peelee

> Yes, your not having English as your first language makes me even more baffled. And no, there's nothing complicated about pronouncing words phonetically and not altering what a given grapheme represents based on its position within a word or largely as a whim.


Every time I see a language with diacritics I get angry that of all the things English stole, those weren't one of them.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Every time I see a language with diacritics I get angry that of all the things English stole, those weren't one of them.


Well, you do use umlauts on occasion. But yeah, mostly I just choose to pity you folks.

----------


## Peelee

> Well, you do use umlauts on occasion.


Mostly over N's, in my experience.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Fyraltari

> Wait, he provides guidelines for pronouncing his cosmetically altered names?


Sure.

But I was just riffing on slightly altering common names to get "fantasy" names.



> I never really saw the Baron as the villain in Dune. He starts as the inciting force. (He and the Emperor cause the plot the happen) After that he's really just a foil for his nephew.


The Harkonnens are the main antagonistic force of the first novel. 

*Spoiler: The plot of Dune*
Show

They win in the first third, Paul spends the second third escaping them  and the final third getting revenge.
Sure the Baron isn't involved much, but he's the closest the book has to an actual villain.

----------


## Ruck

> G. R. R. Martin? Is that you?


George's names are pronounced the same, he usually just changes one letter. Eddard, Qarl, etc. Even down to having knights called "Ser" for some reason.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Mostly over N's, in my experience.


I'm Not sure I follow.




> Sure.


Ah, that. Well, pretty much what Ruck's just said, then. (Parenthetical remark: and I'm _really_ pissed that they actually got a Valyrian language made (which had phonemes to explain the use of those letters/digraphs) and still went with pretending that _æ_ and _y_ are pretty much just a funny way to spell /e/ and /ɪ/.)

----------


## Peelee

> I'm Not sure I follow.


The reviews go to 11.

----------


## Lord Torath

I never noticed how many people _don't_ know how to kill vampires.  Many people seem to think you should chop off their heads and then fill their mouths with holy wafers.  Obviously any experienced vampire hunter knows they have no heads left to force-feed holy wafers once they're decapitated.

Adds verisimilitude to the idea that few people know what happens to the spirit of the poor soul who gets turned into a vampire.  People just don't know that much about them (other than the fact that they need a lot of d10s).

----------


## Peelee

> I never noticed how many people _don't_ know how to kill vampires.  Many people seem to think you should chop off their heads and then fill their mouths with holy wafers.


It's a popular tactic.

----------


## Metastachydium

> (other than the fact that they need a lot of d10s).


What would a vampire need d10s for, anyhow?

----------


## Laurentio III

> What would a vampire need d10s for, anyhow?


To play "Vampire the Masquerade" RPG.

----------


## LadyEowyn

I never noticed that during the Godsmoot, *Njords* line (Ooh! I could try out that new idea I had for a coastline!) is almost certainly a pun on *fjord*.

I cant _believe_ I didnt catch that until now.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html

----------


## Peelee

> I never noticed that during the Godsmoot, *Njords* line (Ooh! I could try out that new idea I had for a coastline!) is almost certainly a pun on *fjord*.
> 
> I cant _believe_ I didnt catch that until now.
> 
> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html


Njord is described in that strip as god of the sea, so it's not out of hand that he would enjoy designing coastlines in general.

----------


## Fyraltari

I wouldn't be surprised if the two words were related.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I wouldn't be surprised if the two words were related.


Well, all I know about phonetics/phonology and Indo-European languages in general tells me that this is incredibly unlikely.

----------


## Peelee

*The Mod on the Silver Mountain:* Going into real-world etymology on these may also not be Forum appropriate.

----------


## Metastachydium

Closer inspection reveals that the worry in question is unfounded in the case of _fjord_; it ultimately derives from a reconstructed PIE root _*pertu-_ which has a meaning akin to that of _ford_: 'cross(ing)'. In accordance with the above MODRED directive, I won't comment on the origins of the other term beyond reaffirming that it is indeed apparently unrelated.

----------


## Lord Torath

Despite cycling through the wallpapers once a minute as my desktop background for several years, I only just tonight noticed Elan and his expression in:
*Spoiler: Pyrohydra*
Show

----------


## Chincaa

Roy still has his Bag of Tricks, the animals tuck him into bed while he is drunk. 

I'm hoping he gets to use it again in some way, but probably not.

----------


## b_jonas

#695 1st panel, Girard says that Serini knows the true location of Girard's pyramid, but she probably won't tell them to the Sapphire Guard.  Now we got to know Serini better, especially in #1254 and #1258 9th.  We see now that Girard was right, Serini is indeed cautious enough that she wouldn't blab about the location.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

Since the art upgrade, all goblinoids wear shoes showing their claws, which is consistent with the way they were drawn before with their toes visible, contrary to all other humanoids who only have one line for their feet/shoes.

----------


## danielxcutter

I think Rich mentioned that actually in his Patreon Q&As!

----------


## Metastachydium

> I think Rich mentioned that actually in his Patreon Q&As!


That is _almost_ correct. It was a forum post.




> contrary to all other humanoids who only have one line for their feet/shoes.


That, on the other hand is not even almost correct. Reptilian humanoids were also consistently drawn with three toes (here's the most recent strip with a kobold on it for reference; it also has a lizardfolk kind of high priest, but the feet of that guy aren't quite as clearly visible).

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> That, on the other hand is not even almost correct. Reptilian humanoids were also consistently drawn with three toes (here's the most recent strip with a kobold on it for reference; it also has a lizardfolk kind of high priest, but the feet of that guy aren't quite as clearly visible).


Okay, you got me, contrary to most dwarves, gnomes and elves, and to some humans not wearing boots, all prior to the art upgrade of 947.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Okay, you got me, contrary to most dwarves, gnomes and elves, and to some humans not wearing boots, all prior to the art upgrade of 947.


Hah! [Begins frantically searching for a gnome with aberrant feet.]

♣
On a tangentially related note, the most recent comic with an old style lizardfolk on it that I can think of has a building with the sign "Tyrinaria Border Patrol HQ". The building is empty and disused _because the border's likely nowhere near it anymore_.

----------


## Fyraltari

> That is _almost_ correct. It was a forum post.
> 
> 
> 
> That, on the other hand is not even almost correct. Reptilian humanoids were also consistently drawn with three toes (here's the most recent strip with a kobold on it for reference; it also has a lizardfolk kind of high priest, but the feet of that guy aren't quite as clearly visible).


I don't see the kobold?

Edit: nope, found them. Carry on.

----------


## littlebum2002

> Roy still has his Bag of Tricks, the animals tuck him into bed while he is drunk.


Good catch, I thought those were leftover rats from the Exarch's summoning.

Also, the wizards inventing the Bag of Tricks always reminds me of Robin William's take on the invention of Golf




> Since the art upgrade, all goblinoids wear shoes showing their claws, which is consistent with the way they were drawn before with their toes visible, contrary to all other humanoids who only have one line for their feet/shoes.


So the goblinoids are wearing Vibram ThreeFingers?

----------


## Peelee

> Hah! [Begins frantically searching for a gnome with aberrant feet.]


You internet people and your feet pics....

----------


## Hardcore

Did rich get second thoughts on Bandanas language and edited it? I recall a discussion where a person couldn't help see her style as being modern American dialect, and didn't like the idea. I read the comic regularly but I am not sure when, or if, it happened.
One could, on the topic, say that I didn't notice the change.

----------


## Peelee

> Did rich get second thoughts on Bandanas language and edited it? I recall a discussion where a person couldn't help see her style as being modern American dialect, and didn't like the idea. I read the comic regularly but I am not sure when, or if, it happened.
> One could, on the topic, say that I didn't notice the change.


Not that I can tell. That person thought her speech style was racially motivated when it came across as pretty standard modern rural (or stereotypically Deep South southern). Bandanna still talked that way, last I remember.

----------


## Metastachydium

> You internet people and your feet pics....


I mean, how else am I supposed to understand the anatomical specifics of animal appendages?

----------


## Peelee

> I mean, how else am I supposed to understand the anatomical specifics of animal appendages?


I thought planties were good at osmosis.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I thought planties were good at osmosis.


Not that kind of osmosis, sadly. (And I'm NOT absorbing other people's feet, thank you very much.)

----------


## ZhonLord

So... I've never actually heard the complete Oh Danny Boy before. I've only heard a couple quick snippets referenced here and there in places like courage the cowardly dog. 

So today I came across Elan's eulogy song for Roy again, and actually listened to the song in full for the first time while reading the altered lyrics. And.... Holy crap, I can see why even Belkar was moved by the song - corny lyrics or not, that's absolutely beautiful. It's one of those things that make you realize: oh, yeah, Elan actually IS a powerful bard!

----------


## littlebum2002

> So... I've never actually heard the complete Oh Danny Boy before. I've only heard a couple quick snippets referenced here and there in places like courage the cowardly dog. 
> 
> So today I came across Elan's eulogy song for Roy again, and actually listened to the song in full for the first time while reading the altered lyrics. And.... Holy crap, I can see why even Belkar was moved by the song - corny lyrics or not, that's absolutely beautiful. It's one of those things that make you realize: oh, yeah, Elan actually IS a powerful bard!


Someone actually sang Elan's version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCYLNj0KXcE&t=70s

Also, it's important to point out how incredibly high level the Order is. It's entirely possible that Elan is one of the highest level bards on the planet.

----------


## Ruck

> Someone actually sang Elan's version
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCYLNj0KXcE&t=70s
> 
> Also, it's important to point out how incredibly high level the Order is. It's entirely possible that Elan is one of the highest level bards on the planet.


Why, he's a certified bardic genius!

----------


## danielxcutter

Theres a very good chance Elan is _the_ highest level bard on the planet actually!

----------


## drDunkel

> Theres a very good chance Elan is _the_ highest level bard on the planet actually!


...and why not _lowest_ level? I mean, is that not what the trope is all about?

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> ...and why not _lowest_ level? I mean, is that not what the trope is all about?


... What? No, the trope is that protagonists *start* as the weakest in their respective fields, but eventually rise to the top, and Elan definitely did that already.

----------


## littlebum2002

> Why, he's a certified bardic genius!


LOL that's the comic that made me realize it actually. Since the Order is usually fighting people at or above their level, I think it can easily be forgotten that the people they are fighting are some of the ONLY people at or above their level. Most adventurers in the world aren't going to survive to make it to level 16. So when a "normal" person like Thirden meets them, it's like meeting a superhero. Sure, there may be another group of near-epic adventurers who decided to retire like the Vector Legion did, there aren't going to be that many. If there are any bards that are more of a "bardic genius" than Elan, they are few and far between and staying out of the limelight.

----------


## Peelee

> LOL that's the comic that made me realize it actually. Since the Order is usually fighting people at or above their level, I think it can easily be forgotten that the people they are fighting are some of the ONLY people at or above their level. Most adventurers in the world aren't going to survive to make it to level 16. So when a "normal" person like Thirden meets them, it's like meeting a superhero.


Both of those bards are at least 12th level.

----------


## ZhonLord

That's a very good point. After all, to quote Belkar: "you wanna ***** out and sound the alarm? Sure, whatever. I mean, that bell got rung when a billion hobgoblins stomped on hinjo's face. I don't hear the cavalry yet."

----------


## danielxcutter

> Both of those bards are at least 12th level.


Yeah, but Thirden is at least middle-aged for a dwarf by now and Elan has at least a few levels on him.

----------


## Peelee

> Yeah, but Thirden is at least middle-aged for a dwarf by now and Elan has at least a few levels on him.


And Thirden dropped out of bars college and went into mining for a while instead while Elan picked it up as soon as he was able.

----------


## Fyraltari

> And Thirden dropped out of bars college and went into mining for a while instead while Elan picked it up as soon as he was able.


You say that like dropping bars isn't something bards do.

----------


## danielxcutter

Well they probably go to bars a lot.

Oh wait they're called taverns in fantasy settings, my bad.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## littlebum2002

> Both of those bards are at least 12th level.


Yeah but in this setting there seems to be a pretty big gulf between 12th Level and 16th Level. We have seen very few characters with levels that high, and all the ones that do are pretty darn powerful (Vector Legion, Order of the Scribble, and everyone's Personal Rivals). Elan was 12th level before the Battle for Azure City even took place. The amount of fighting he has been in between then and now is impressively high, and I would bet that few adventurers survive all of that.

----------


## Peelee

> Yeah but in this setting there seems to be a pretty big gulf between 12th Level and 16th Level. We have seen very few characters with levels that high, and all the ones that do are pretty darn powerful (Vector Legion, Order of the Scribble, and everyone's Personal Rivals). Elan was 12th level before the Battle for Azure City even took place. The amount of fighting he has been in between then and now is impressively high, and I would bet that few adventurers survive all of that.


I'm not saying that he's the equivalent of a 16th level character, I'm just pointing out that he's far from low-level himself. Keep in mind that Azure City's military, the people whose job was to fight, had a severe lack of people above level 3. Sure, not many peopld get to 16th, but 12th isn't exactly common either.

Saying Thirden is a "normal" person in awe at meeting Elan is like saying he's a "normal" person meeting a billionaire and being in awe of his money. Sure, the billionaire is significantly more wealthy, but Thirden in this analogy has a hundred million dollars and is being compared to the average working Joe.

ETA: And lest we forget, we don't actually know his level. 12 is the _floor_.

----------


## ZhonLord

I feel like this should be a separate thread at this point, I was not expecting to unleash such a storm with my never-noticed lol.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Well they probably go to bars a lot.


but only before they Cross the Bar.

----------


## littlebum2002

> I'm not saying that he's the equivalent of a 16th level character, I'm just pointing out that he's far from low-level himself. Keep in mind that Azure City's military, the people whose job was to fight, had a severe lack of people above level 3. Sure, not many peopld get to 16th, but 12th isn't exactly common either.
> 
> Saying Thirden is a "normal" person in awe at meeting Elan is like saying he's a "normal" person meeting a billionaire and being in awe of his money. Sure, the billionaire is significantly more wealthy, but Thirden in this analogy has a hundred million dollars and is being compared to the average working Joe.
> 
> ETA: And lest we forget, we don't actually know his level. 12 is the _floor_.


Oh OK I gotcha. Yeah, he's not a "normal" bard, he's a very powerful bard but he's meeting one of the greatest bards in the world. It's more like being the fastest 100m dash runner in your country and meeting Usain Bolt.

----------


## Peelee

> Oh OK I gotcha. Yeah, he's not a "normal" bard, he's a very powerful bard but he's meeting one of the greatest bards in the world. It's more like being the fastest 100m dash runner in your country and meeting Usain Bolt.


Now we can get into the "one of the fastest bards in the world" bit. There may be epic level bards or 20th level bards already. Sure, not many, hardly any, but a dozen or so would be plenty to put Elan in the "not Usain Bolt" camp, and in an entire world, that is a frighteningly small number.

----------


## Crusher

> Now we can get into the "one of the fastest bards in the world" bit. There may be epic level bards or 20th level bards already. Sure, not many, hardly any, but a dozen or so would be plenty to put Elan in the "not Usain Bolt" camp, and in an entire world, that is a frighteningly small number.


In the interests of accurately splitting the hair, perhaps Elan is the Trayvon Bromwell of his world.

Edit - Just to clarify, Bromwell is arguably the fastest of kind of the next generation of great sprinters. He's starting to show up on the lower part of the league table of all-time greats, but he hasn't been around long enough to really prove himself yet and has been a little inconsistent. He's got the 6th fastest 100M of all time, yet failed to make the Olympic finals because he botched his semi-final heat. If you follow track and field closely, you'd know who he is, but he isn't famous enough to have any awareness among the general public yet.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Now we can get into the "one of the fastest bards in the world" bit.


He has a 30' _per round_ movement rate (that's a 15' base land speed!). That can't be him!




> In the interests of accurately splitting the hair, perhaps Elan is the Trayvon Bromwell of his world.
> 
> Edit - Just to clarify, Bromwell is arguably the fastest of kind of the next generation of great sprinters. He's starting to show up on the lower part of the league table of all-time greats, but he hasn't been around long enough to really prove himself yet and has been a little inconsistent. He's got the 6th fastest 100M of all time, yet failed to make the Olympic finals because he botched his semi-final heat. If you follow track and field closely, you'd know who he is, but he isn't famous enough to have any awareness among the general public yet.


Hey, that's a pretty neat analogy there.

----------


## littlebum2002

> Now we can get into the "one of the fastest bards in the world" bit. There may be epic level bards or 20th level bards already. Sure, not many, hardly any, but a dozen or so would be plenty to put Elan in the "not Usain Bolt" camp, and in an entire world, that is a frighteningly small number.


I believe that Elan is the most powerful (active) bard in the world and nothing will change my mind about that

----------


## Crusher

> I believe that Elan is the most powerful (active) bard in the world and nothing will change my mind about that


What if someone gives you a cookie? Like, a really good one.

----------


## ZhonLord

You know... It didn't really sink in before about Eugene being the last oath spirit left. What would happen to him if xykon doesn't get destroyed? Say, he bails out like Hilgya is planning to, heads to his astral fortress and survives the end of the world?  What'll happen to Eugene then? Will he be stuck waiting for an eon until the next creation then pester someone there to go after a resurging xykon? Will he be stuck in limbo forever because xykon will be too powerful for anyone in the new world to stop him? Or do the gods have contingencies for cases like his in the event of a snarl reset? Eugene's future is extremely shaky right now. 

(And yes, I'm aware this is a moot point if xykon leaves without his phylactery thanks to Redcloak pulling a switcheroo)

----------


## Metastachydium

> You know... It didn't really sink in before about Eugene being the last oath spirit left. What would happen to him if xykon doesn't get destroyed? Say, he bails out like Hilgya is planning to, heads to his astral fortress and survives the end of the world?  What'll happen to Eugene then? Will he be stuck waiting for an eon until the next creation then pester someone there to go after a resurging xykon? Will he be stuck in limbo forever because xykon will be too powerful for anyone in the new world to stop him? Or do the gods have contingencies for cases like his in the event of a snarl reset? Eugene's future is extremely shaky right now.


Well, with all the mindwiping that comes with rebooting worlds, I'm not sure he would _know_ who he is or why he's even there afterwards and the gods would likely sweep him under some kind of rug to keep him out of sight.

----------


## Mike Havran

> You know... It didn't really sink in before about Eugene being the last oath spirit left. What would happen to him if xykon doesn't get destroyed? Say, he bails out like Hilgya is planning to, heads to his astral fortress and survives the end of the world?  What'll happen to Eugene then? Will he be stuck waiting for an eon until the next creation then pester someone there to go after a resurging xykon? Will he be stuck in limbo forever because xykon will be too powerful for anyone in the new world to stop him? Or do the gods have contingencies for cases like his in the event of a snarl reset? Eugene's future is extremely shaky right now. 
> 
> (And yes, I'm aware this is a moot point if xykon leaves without his phylactery thanks to Redcloak pulling a switcheroo)


Seems like a good Patreon question. I think that if Eugene gets mind-wiped (which he might not, since he's technically not an Outsider), the entire Blood Oath becomes pointless and he might as well proceed into the afterlife.

----------


## Coppercloud

I don't think Hilgya's plan can work at all. If it could, there would be other high-level characters from previous worlds (or their descendants) hanging around in the outer planes or even planeshifting back to Stick world. Come to think of it, that could explain how Fruit Pie the sorcerer ended up in Dorukan's fortress, but it raises way more questions that it answers. It seems safer to assume the gods have some sort of contingency measure in place.

On a more general level, my personal take about leftover oathspirits is that blood oaths or similar rituals are about killing a foe (or destroying them, for pedantic wizards). At least, that's what the standard tattoo procedure shown in Start of Darkness seems to suggest. The only other example that we have is Violet, whose descendant had to sunder a cursed sword.

As Roy points out, if the world ends in a way or another, all blood oaths are technically fulfilled. Therefore, any remaining oathspirits would be allowed into the afterlife. Probably Mechanus for Eugene, as he doesn't strike me as "good", plus I think filling paperwork until he's bored out of his immortal mind would be pretty fitting.

I do wonder whether he really is the last oathspirit or not. Maybe the devas were so pissed at Eugene that they separated him from the others without telling him (it's not like there are any landmarks to help him find his bearings in this demiplane). He did bind and gag Tony, after all.

On a semi-related note, I never noticed Roy's plan with his archon was still pending.

----------


## Metastachydium

> As Roy points out, if the world ends in a way or another, all blood oaths are technically fulfilled. Therefore, any remaining oathspirits would be allowed into the afterlife. Probably Mechanus for Eugene, as he doesn't strike me as "good", plus I think filling paperwork until he's bored out of his immortal mind would be pretty fitting.


Frankly, he never struck me as any more Lawful than he is Good. Neglecting his various duties once he gets disinterested in them is half his deal.

----------


## Peelee

> I don't think Hilgya's plan can work at all. If it could, there would be other high-level characters from previous worlds (or their descendants) hanging around in the outer planes or even planeshifting back to Stick world.


Why? That presumes they would have known about it to start with. And would have somehow survived the large amount of time between worlds.

----------


## Fyraltari

"Survivors from the previous world" seems like a flawless explanation for Fruit Pie and mocha latté to me.

----------


## Peelee

> "Survivors from the previous world" seems like a flawless explanation for Fruit Pie and mocha latté to me.


Neither of which are movie theater snacks.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Neither of which are movie theater snacks.


Aye, and Durkon isn't human.

----------


## Ruck

> Neither of which are movie theater snacks.


Well, soy latté was trying to be.

That raises a question: Was the intermission in #301 a flashback to the sentient movie-theater snacks world? I think #1140 implies it was, since the context of #1140 #1140 implies it's a flashback to that world, and in that strip Soda is getting revenge on Pizza for killing Milk Dudes in #301.

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## Coppercloud

> Frankly, he never struck me as any more Lawful than he is Good. Neglecting his various duties once he gets disinterested in them is half his deal.


Very true, but SoD reveals that he actually cared enough about his family to refuse to leave them to fulfill his vengeance when given the opportunity. But maybe that was him justifying his aloofness. In any case, I think you're right and he's most likely closer to True neutral.




> Why? That presumes they would have known about it to start with. And would have somehow survived the large amount of time between worlds.


You don't need to know about the details to planeshift "if'n it all starts shakin'" if you have the spell prepared or you could be traveling there for other reasons. Also see "descendants" and "immortal beings such an lichs".
In billions of worlds, it would seem likely such conditions were already met several times. If not, then the gods would have to make a decision this time, but I really don't think they would let people hang out in the outer planes when they remake the world. Not if those people or their great-geat-grandchildren might be still alive (or still undead) when it's finished.

----------


## Ruck

> Very true, but SoD reveals that he actually cared enough about his family to refuse to leave them to fulfill his vengeance when given the opportunity. But maybe that was him justifying his aloofness.


Considering at the time he made that statement he was drinking at a bar to purposely miss his son's soccer game, I think it's more the latter. (Although I wouldn't phrase what he's justifying as his aloofness; maybe his cowardice, or his probably-accurate assessment that he would not be able to defeat Xykon, or whatever other reason he has for refusing the call.)

----------


## danielxcutter

> Well, soy latté was trying to be.


Seriously, who eats _pizza_ at a movie theater?




> That raises a question: Was the intermission in #301 a flashback to the sentient movie-theater snacks world? I think #1140 implies it was, since the context of #1140 #1140 implies it's a flashback to that world, and in that strip Soda is getting revenge on Pizza for killing Milk Dudes in #301.


I think so, yeah.




> Considering at the time he made that statement he was drinking at a bar to purposely miss his son's soccer game, I think it's more the latter. (Although I wouldn't phrase what he's justifying as his aloofness; maybe his cowardice, or his probably-accurate assessment that he would not be able to defeat Xykon, or whatever other reason he has for refusing the call.)


People can and often do have multiple layers of motivation, yes. Redcloak might prioritize one house if pushed, but if not pushed he does live in both, for example.

----------


## Ruck

> People can and often do have multiple layers of motivation, yes. Redcloak might prioritize one house if pushed, but if not pushed he does live in both, for example.


I'm not sure what in my post this is addressing. I think Eugene's primary motivations while alive were being left alone to do wizard stuff, being praised for doing wizard stuff, and staying alive to do wizard stuff. All of which tracks with blowing off the chance to hunt Xykon again while also blowing off Roy's soccer game. (And carrying around copies of wizard magazines with him on the cover while he's doing it.)

I could be charitable enough to buy that he'd simply put Xykon behind him and didn't think it was worth the risk to himself, but his investment in his family being the reason is belied by how often he neglected them to do wizard stuff.

*Spoiler: Start of Darkness*
Show

Or worse than "neglected." If I have the timeline right, at the end of that scene Sara hints she's pregnant with Eric, and Eugene's experiment kills him when he's two years old. So how much of a priority could protecting his family really have been, if he's neglectful enough to get his own toddler killed just two years later?

----------


## Peelee

> Aye, and Durkon isn't human.


Since Thor has said they Madre a movie theater snack world, and has not said that this world is a human world, I'm sure there's a point you're trying to make but I haven't the foggiest idea what it is.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Since Thor has said they Madre a movie theater snack world, and has not said that this world is a human world, I'm sure there's a point you're trying to make but I haven't the foggiest idea what it is.


I forgot that Thor specified "movie theater snacks" and not "sentient food items" (in my defense, it was long past any reasonable bed time).

HOWEVER, Ruck kindly showed that Soy Latté was alive(?) in this world, therefore it seems likely that so was Mocha.

Edit:



> Seriously, who eats _pizza_ at a movie theater?


Don't ask me, I still don't understand people eating any kind of food at all in cinema.

----------


## Metastachydium

> People can and often do have multiple layers of motivation, yes. Redcloak might prioritize one house if pushed, but if not pushed he does live in both, for example.





> I'm not sure what in my post this is addressing. I think Eugene's primary motivations while alive were being left alone to do wizard stuff, being praised for doing wizard stuff, and staying alive to do wizard stuff. All of which tracks with blowing off the chance to hunt Xykon again while also blowing off Roy's soccer game. (And carrying around copies of wizard magazines with him on the cover while he's doing it.)


Yep. That sums up Eugene pretty well.




> I could be charitable enough to buy that he'd simply put Xykon behind him and didn't think it was worth the risk to himself, but his investment in his family being the reason is belied by how often he neglected them to do wizard stuff.
> 
> *Spoiler: Start of Darkness*
> Show
> 
> Or worse than "neglected." If I have the timeline right, at the end of that scene Sara hints she's pregnant with Eric, and Eugene's experiment kills him when he's two years old. So how much of a priority could protecting his family really have been, if he's neglectful enough to get his own toddler killed just two years later?


Anyhow, I think what's meant is simply "he might have had multiple motivations", including "like I care" and "I'm too important to just die going after that dude, just look at this magazine with me on the cover", i.e. getting didinterested in revenge (just as he got disinterested in being a husband) _and_ fearing for his own (oh-so-important) life.




> Don't ask me, I still don't understand people eating any kind of food at all in cinema.


Right? Right??

----------


## danielxcutter

> I'm not sure what in my post this is addressing. I think Eugene's primary motivations while alive were being left alone to do wizard stuff, being praised for doing wizard stuff, and staying alive to do wizard stuff. All of which tracks with blowing off the chance to hunt Xykon again while also blowing off Roy's soccer game. (And carrying around copies of wizard magazines with him on the cover while he's doing it.)
> 
> I could be charitable enough to buy that he'd simply put Xykon behind him and didn't think it was worth the risk to himself, but his investment in his family being the reason is belied by how often he neglected them to do wizard stuff.
> 
> *Spoiler: Start of Darkness*
> Show
> 
> Or worse than "neglected." If I have the timeline right, at the end of that scene Sara hints she's pregnant with Eric, and Eugene's experiment kills him when he's two years old. So how much of a priority could protecting his family really have been, if he's neglectful enough to get his own toddler killed just two years later?


I mean...




> Anyhow, I think what's meant is simply "he might have had multiple motivations", including "like I care" and "I'm too important to just die going after that dude, just look at this magazine with me on the cover", i.e. getting disinterested in revenge (just as he got disinterested in being a husband) _and_ fearing for his own (oh-so-important) life.


Okay I'm just going to substitute an actual explanation with this.




> I forgot that Thor specified "movie theater snacks" and not "sentient food items" (in my defense, it was long past any reasonable bed time).
> 
> HOWEVER, Ruck kindly showed that Soy Latté was alive(?) in this world, therefore it seems likely that so was Mocha.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Don't ask me, I still don't understand people eating any kind of food at all in cinema.





> Right? Right??


Popcorn and soda, I get that, though to be frank me eating popcorn in movies(when the family even wants to) is at least partly an excuse to actually eat movie popcorn. Not like that's super common outside theaters.

But yeah, basically everything else was "eh?" I mean, why _pizza?_ Maybe if you're watching DVDs or Netflix at home, sure, but in a theater???

----------


## Ruck

> Anyhow, I think what's meant is simply "he might have had multiple motivations", including "like I care" and "I'm too important to just die going after that dude, just look at this magazine with me on the cover", i.e. getting didinterested in revenge (just as he got disinterested in being a husband) _and_ fearing for his own (oh-so-important) life.





> Okay I'm just going to substitute an actual explanation with this.


Right, I don't doubt he has multiple motivations (as most people do). I doubt that his stated concern for his family was one of those motivations, based on how he treated them the rest of the time.

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## danielxcutter

I was mostly saying that it probably isnt just one of the things you ascribed to him. Though even his apathy has limits; hes at least aware just how messed up the Bet is from a mortal perspective.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Right, I don't doubt he has multiple motivations (as most people do). I doubt that his stated concern for his family was one of those motivations, based on how he treated them the rest of the time.


Oh, _that_ I wholeheartedly agree with. I'm pretty sure the next scene with Roy is there to drive that very point home.




> I was mostly saying that it probably isnt just one of the things you ascribed to him. Though even his apathy has limits; hes at least aware just how messed up the Bet is from a mortal perspective.


True. He's painfully quick to demonstrate just how much he truly cares about the dwarven souls, however.

----------


## littlebum2002

> Seriously, who eats _pizza_ at a movie theater?


I was in my seat before a movie one time and a woman walked up with a floor length dress and before sitting down she hiked it up and slid an entire pizza out from under it. Sure, it was a little messed up due to being held vertically, but that's a pretty darn good movie snack if you can pull it off.

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## Peelee

> Popcorn and soda, I get that, though to be frank me eating popcorn in movies(when the family even wants to) is at least partly an excuse to actually eat movie popcorn. Not like that's super common outside theaters.


It actually can be - movie theater popcorn is just popcorn, oil, and seasoned salt. Flavacol is incredibly common for this. Even if you don't want to use your own popper and just have microwave popcorn, a light dusting of flavacol will give you that movie theater popcorn taste at a fraction of the cost. And when I say a fraction, I mean I bought a 2-pack of 1-qt containers for like 15 bucks off amazon seven years ago and am only now to about 20% remaining of the first one. The second one I gave away as a gift years ago to my bestie. Now, granted, I'm not exactly eating popcorn every day, but that's still a hell of a long-lasting product. You don't rally need much each time. 

ETA: Currently 14 bucks. 



> But yeah, basically everything else was "eh?" I mean, why _pizza?_ Maybe if you're watching DVDs or Netflix at home, sure, but in a theater???


Most theaters here have hot dogs and nachos as standard concession foods, and luxury theaters tend to have much more (eg wings, pizza, burgers, Buffalo chicken, etc) that they bring to your seat. It's actually pretty nice and I like it. 



> I was in my seat before a movie one time and a woman walked up with a floor length dress and before sitting down she hiked it up and slid an entire pizza out from under it. Sure, it was a little messed up due to being held vertically, but that's a pretty darn good movie snack if you can pull it off.


The most impressive I ever saw was two old ladies who snuck in a full takeaway meal. Full size styrofoam clamshell containers. They even brought in an entire, brand new bottle of ketchup. Left it all in their seats instead of throwing away the trash and taking the ketchup.

----------


## danielxcutter

> True. He's painfully quick to demonstrate just how much he truly cares about the dwarven souls, however.


I mean he's not the kind of omnicidal nihilist Pathfinder daemons are. Demons and devils have worked together and with _angels_ to stop daemons plots in the past. Charon, one of the greatest daemons, made a machine so efficient at snuffing out life it horrified _Asmodeus._

----------


## Fyraltari

> I mean he's not the kind of omnicidal nihilist Pathfinder daemons are. Demons and devils have worked together and with _angels_ to stop daemons plots in the past. Charon, one of the greatest daemons, made a machine so efficient at snuffing out life it horrified _Asmodeus._


If the best thing you can say about a character is that he's not as bad as the literal epitome of all evil, maybe you shouldn't bother trying to say nice things about him.

----------


## Lord Torath

Many of the movie theaters in my area sell all sorts of foods you can take into the movies, including pizza, pretzels, ice cream, and hot dogs, in addition to the more traditional pop-corn and sodas.  There was even an attached Mexican Food restaurant you could get take-out from to take into a movie.  I'm not certain they still have the "No Outside Food" rule in those locations anymore.

----------


## Peelee

> Many of the movie theaters in my area sell all sorts of foods you can take into the movies, including pizza, pretzels, ice cream, and hot dogs, in addition to the more traditional pop-corn and sodas.  There was even an attached Mexican Food restaurant you could get take-out from to take into a movie.  I'm not certain they still have the "No Outside Food" rule in those locations anymore.


They almost certainly still do, since the business model is still built on the concession stand instead of ticket sales (and have to rent the movies they show, at exorbitant prices).

Theaters with alcohol would be making bank, though.

----------


## Fyraltari

> They almost certainly still do, since the business model is still built on the concession stand instead of ticket sales (and have to rent the movies they show, at exorbitant prices).
> 
> Theaters with alcohol would be making bank, though.


I'm told theaters sell beer in Germany. OF course, being Germany and all, that may not be considered alcohol.

----------


## Peelee

> I'm told theaters sell beer in Germany. OF course, being Germany and all, that may not be considered alcohol.


It's not the chemical, it's the markup.  :Small Amused: 

That being said, I remember being amused in my very early teens at McDonald's selling McBeer in Austria.

----------


## Ruck

> They almost certainly still do, since the business model is still built on the concession stand instead of ticket sales (and have to rent the movies they show, at exorbitant prices).
> 
> Theaters with alcohol would be making bank, though.


There are definitely theaters that sell alcohol. Generally the same ones that actually sell food that could pass for a meal.

I'm all for sneaking stuff into the other kind of theater, though. Never tried it with a pizza, but the first time my now-wife and I went on a movie date night we got Jimmy John's and hid it in her purse. One of my favorite moviegoing experiences was with a friend in 2004: We smoked out first, snuck a plastic fifth of Seagram's into the theater, got a giant Coke and spiked it and split it, got tickets to and saw _Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind_, then walked over and also saw _Kill Bill Vol. 2_.

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## Peelee

> There are definitely theaters that sell alcohol. Generally the same ones that actually sell food that could pass for a meal.


Yep. The theater I used to work at way back when is now a luxury theater with the heated recliners and walls between rows and has the full service and alcohol. Back when I worked at McWane Science Center, I learned they are fastidious about keeping their liquor license despite that they are a children's science museum and don't normally sell booze. They keep it on hand so that they can use it during after-hours events, like fundraisers, shareholders events, special adult-only movies on the IMAX dome screen, and occasional special events - for instance, I once got paid to sit in on a talk given by E. O. Wilson, considered the father of modern entomology and one of, if not _the_, biggest names in his field. Tickets sold out in less than a day. I wasn't on the business side but I heard they went for three figures. This was a very sought-after event in the subspecialist-biologists-of-academia community. And of the three of us in the department, I volunteered to man the theater for it (they held all events like that in the dome - most seating available and also enormo screen and sound system if they wanted any sort of visual presentation) and racked up overtime while listening just this really cool guy talk about what he loved. Loved that place. The pay stunk but they did a lot to make it a quality experience whether you were a two year old having fun or a member of the board needing to go over the financials. The didn't skimp on the experience.

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## Coppercloud

Mom, I derailed a thread, I'm finally a true member of the forum!  :Redface:

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## Crimsonmantle

> It's not the chemical, it's the markup. 
> 
> That being said, I remember being amused in my very early teens at McDonald's selling McBeer in Austria.


Don't know about Austria but they stopped selling beer in Germany about 20 years ago.

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## Peelee

> Don't know about Austria but they stopped selling beer in Germany about 20 years ago.


Your meaning is clear, but I'm amused that the wording implies the entire nation of Germany stopped selling beer entirely.  :Small Amused:

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## Fyraltari

> Your meaning is clear, but I'm amused that the wording implies the entire nation of Germany stopped selling beer entirely.


They've declared it a human right and are distributing it for free, like higher education and tap water. This is a joke.

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## Peelee

> They've declared it a human right and are distributing it for free, like higher education and tap water.


Free tap water? I see you've never been to a German restaurant!

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## Fyraltari

> Free tap water? I see you've never been to a German restaurant!


I have, but a long time ago.

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## Metastachydium

> Free tap water? I see you've never been to a German restaurant!





> I have, but a long time ago.


That's right! The only thing they are allowed, by law, to have on tap is beer.

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## Peelee

> That's right! The only thing they are allowed, by law, to have on tap is beer.


IIRC in Austria beer prices in restaurants are artificially inflated due to a law that it cannot be cheaper than soft drinks, so as to not financially encourage youth drinking.

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## Metastachydium

> IIRC in Austria beer prices in restaurants are artificially inflated due to a law that it cannot be cheaper than soft drinks, so as to not financially encourage youth drinking.


and everywhere else, they are just artificially inflated because people will drink booze _anyway_. They may as well make profit on that! (On a note at least as serious, that's certainly a _sane_ measure.)

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## Peelee

> and everywhere else, they are just artificially inflated because people will drink booze _anyway_. They may as well make profit on that! (On a note at least as serious, that's certainly a _sane_ measure.)


I think you seriously underestimate how much soft drinks cost in the Alps.

Also despite my joke earlier, tap water is free in restaurants but you have to say tap water. Ask for water and they will bring you mineral water, and will charge you accordingly.

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## Crimsonmantle

> Your meaning is clear, but I'm amused that the wording implies the entire nation of Germany stopped selling beer entirely.


Eh, it's trending that way.
https://de.statista.com/statistik/da...and-seit-2000/

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## Metastachydium

> I think you seriously underestimate how much soft drinks cost in the Alps.


My understanding of how much soft drinks cost _anywhere_ might be a tad fuzzy these days.




> Also despite my joke earlier, tap water is free in restaurants but you have to say tap water. Ask for water and they will bring you mineral water, and will charge you accordingly.


Sounds like the general trend _outside_ Germany as well. Hereabouts, tap water is freely available, but ordering it is kind of frowned upon.

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## The ShadowVerse

> I think you seriously underestimate how much soft drinks cost in the Alps.


I certainly do. I've been on the merchant side of a concession stand, and the soft drinks on tap are nearly free, they're so cheap. Why is it so expensive in the Alps? Has to be trucked in? But then so would any other drink, right?

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## drDunkel

> I certainly do. I've been on the merchant side of a concession stand, and the soft drinks on tap are nearly free, they're so cheap. Why is it so expensive in the Alps? Has to be trucked in? But then so would any other drink, right?


Exclusivity. Monopoly.

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## danielxcutter

> Exclusivity. Monopoly.


Wasn't the entire point of that game to not be fun, so as to provide a contrast to the game that modeled an actual healthy economic system?

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## Peelee

> Wasn't the entire point of that game to not be fun, so as to provide a contrast to the game that modeled an actual healthy economic system?


Technically the point of the game was to showcase SLA systemically unfair system wherein whoever has the most luck and capital ends up owning and controlling the entire system while all other players lose all their money.

I also have fun playing it, but I also insist on no house rules which means that the game is usually about an hour ish long.

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## Metastachydium

Evil people Kick the Dog; the more wantonly cruel they are (or, should I say: the more _Chaotic_ their brand of Evil is), the more likely they are to engage in such things, right? Well, not in the Stickverse! Some of the most important named CE characters in _OotS_ (all of the _confirmed ones_, if I'm not mistaken, barring Cedrik), namely Belkar, _Xykon_ himself and _especially_ Thog were all shown to like dogs  and Thog even flew into a somehow _more_ fierce and murderous rage _mid-rage_ when he saw a dog kicked.

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## Lord Torath

> Evil people Kick the Dog; the more wantonly cruel they are (or, should I say: the more _Chaotic_ their brand of Evil is), the more likely they are to engage in such things, right? Well, not in the Stickverse! Some of the most important named CE characters in _OotS_ (all of the _confirmed ones_, if I'm not mistaken, barring Cedrik), namely Belkar, _Xykon_ himself and _especially_ Thog were all shown to like dogs  and Thog even flew into a somehow _more_ fierce and murderous rage _mid-rage_ when he saw a dog kicked.


 :Biggrin:    Yet more proof that Tarquin is a strictly low-tier baddy: willingness to punch a bunny.

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## Metastachydium

> Yet more proof that Tarquin is a strictly low-tier baddy: willingness to punch a bunny.


Perhaps, but perhaps not! In the very next strip, it is revealed that he would have likely been right about EVERYTHING had he known that Elan was already involved in a recruitment montage, showing all the wacky applicants that got rejected!

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## b_jonas

#412 final panel, when Elan says Where else would a crown go?, Roy is standing in the same room wearing a crown not on his head.

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## Ruck

> #412 final panel, when Elan says Where else would a crown go?, Roy is standing in the same room wearing a crown not on his head.


Ha, I never caught that. That's good.

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## Sermil

I had totally forgotten that in #1183, the IFCC had a cutaway talking about firing up some type of "artifact" and getting a "vessel".

I'm assuming we're all supposed to have been sitting on the edge of our seats, wondering what their evil plan is, but I'd totally forgotten about it with all the Team Evil and Serini hijinks.

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## ZhonLord

> I had totally forgotten that in #1183, the IFCC had a cutaway talking about firing up some type of "artifact" and getting a "vessel".
> 
> I'm assuming we're all supposed to have been sitting on the edge of our seats, wondering what their evil plan is, but I'd totally forgotten about it with all the Team Evil and Serini hijinks.


Yup. There's speculation that the vessel is Julia, and Sabine is either possessing her or otherwise manipulating her to give Roy advice to the effect of confronting Xykon sooner than later. "Destructive, unnecessary conflict" and all that.

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## woweedd

Remember this comic? So Tarquin is doing the classic gag of listing off two clues that explain how he deduced something, in this case, that Nale hasn't left the city yet after his plan fell through, (that Nale is a cautious planner and thus wouldn't leave the city without replacements for the men he lost, that Nale has a massive ego and thus wouldn't leave until he knew what Elan and Tarquin had to say about his stunt), and then finishes up by stating a third thing that makes that fact blatant, rendering the other two deductions irrelevant (namely, wearing a ring of True Seeing and thus can see Nale invisibly standing right next to them). Fun gag, but I just realized that it's also a really smart move on Tarquin's point. As he said, Nale has a massive ego, and would be salivating to hear Tarquin talk about him in detail. Odds are, he started with the earlier comments to lure Nale in close enough that Tarquin could corner him without him having the chance to slip away again. And also taking the opportunity to berate Nale for his egotism, because Tarquin is a jerk, and also enjoys multitasking.

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## b_jonas

> I had totally forgotten that in #1183, the IFCC had a cutaway talking about firing up some type of "artifact" and getting a "vessel".


I was assuming that the evil magical artifact with a vessel must be the Cauldron of Fate from Casey & Andy #636, #637, #638, #654, #660, #661.

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## Fyraltari

> Remember this comic? So Tarquin is doing the classic gag of listing off two clues that explain how he deduced something, in this case, that Nale hasn't left the city yet after his plan fell through, (that Nale is a cautious planner and thus wouldn't leave the city without replacements for the men he lost, that Nale has a massive ego and thus wouldn't leave until he knew what Elan and Tarquin had to say about his stunt), and then finishes up by stating a third thing that makes that fact blatant, rendering the other two deductions irrelevant (namely, wearing a ring of True Seeing and thus can see Nale invisibly standing right next to them). Fun gag, but I just realized that it's also a really smart move on Tarquin's point. As he said, Nale has a massive ego, and would be salivating to hear Tarquin talk about him in detail. Odds are, he started with the earlier comments to lure Nale in close enough that Tarquin could corner him without him having the chance to slip away again. And also taking the opportunity to berate Nale for his egotism, because Tarquin is a jerk, and also enjoys multitasking.


A subtle bit I really like is that when Malack asks how he knows where Nale is, Tarquin start answering while looking directly at Nale. Hell, he's even sayign that what he's about to say doesn't matter.

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## woweedd

Something I noticed years ago, but love bringing up: Xykon's whole speech about how "Power equals power" and power comes in every form, including, say, a +8 racial bonus to a certain skill, is immediately followed by V dealing a major blow to the epic-level lich by combining a 1st-level class feature and a 3rd-level spell. Looks like they took it to heart, eh X?

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## Fyraltari

> Something I noticed years ago, but love bringing up: Xykon's whole speech about how "Power equals power" and power comes in every form, including, say, a +8 racial bonus to a certain skill, is immediately followed by V dealing a major blow to the epic-level lich by combining a 1st-level class feature and a 3rd-level spell. Looks like they took it to heart, eh X?


Indeed. What's more, Xykon berated V for using somebody else's power, saying that power that can be taken away by blowing a couple Will saves is power you don't actually have. And then he blows a Spot check and O-Chul takes away the thing that keeps him immortal.

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## danielxcutter

Turns out being smarter than you look isnt worth quite that much when its a fairly low bar in the first place.

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## Lord Torath

Does this have to be only for the comic?  I was looking at the Wrong Eye wallpaper and noticed that the signature next to Mr Scruffy says "After Trampier"

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## ZhonLord

So.... It just clicked why no one found Belkar's Ring of Jumping.... He doesn't wear it on his fingers or toes, but on his "trouser titan".

Which in turn means that when he handed it to Roy later... He effectively followed through on some of those catcalls he made while Roy was female.

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## Tzardok

I assumed he hid it in his rectum. You know, cavity search and stuff like that.

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## ZhonLord

> I assumed he hid it in his rectum. You know, cavity search and stuff like that.


It has to be worn to use its magic.  Pretty sure a "prison wallet", as Deadpool calls it, wouldn't qualify as wearing. So he wouldn't be able to jump without first re-equipping it, whereas if he wore it where I think he wore it he could use its enchantment without delay.

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## danielxcutter

He could have taken it out, put it on a finger, then jumped.

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## Peelee

> He could have taken it out, put it on a finger, then jumped.


Yep. That's the most reasonable interpretation, IMO.

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## Fyraltari

> It has to be worn to use its magic.  Pretty sure a "prison wallet", as Deadpool calls it, wouldn't qualify as wearing. So he wouldn't be able to jump without first re-equipping it, whereas if he wore it where I think he wore it he could use its enchantment without delay.


You thinking that putting something on one's penis qualifies more as wearing than keeping it inside one's rectum?
Edit: More to the point, Belkar taking it out of his rectum, putting it on his finger and waiting for the guard to open the trapdoor to bring him food seem like the more logical course of action.

Edit2: I also fail to see how, in the hypothetical that it was worn on his penis, handing it to Roy would qualify as following through on the catcalls.

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## woweedd

Realization: Durkon* using a defenseless baby as a human shield in addition to the obvious use, is also probably another little way to **** with Roy. I wonder if he's recalling his younger brother...

Also, I heard a lot of people wondering why Davlin would be stupid enough to respect the outcome of the Dwarven Council vote in spite of blatant vote-rigging, but, given that we later find out the Gods can he influenced by mortal beliefs, often quite heavily (Odin being crazy because the previous world's Northerners believed magic was for simpletons, with Odin being the northern god of magic, Thor being blond, ETC), maybe that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. When he was a mortal, there might have been a provision for that, but, if most people don't know, then, as far as they're concerned, he'll  go with whatever the Council voted for, no matter how blatant the vote-rigging...Which, by the nature of being a God, means that he HAS to accept a tainted vote.

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## Peelee

> Realization: Durkon* using a defenseless baby as a human shield in addition to the obvious use, is also probably another little way to **** with Roy. I wonder if he's recalling his younger brother...
> 
> Also, I heard a lot of people wondering why Davlin would be stupid enough to respect the outcome of the Dwarven Council vote in spite of blatant vote-rigging, but, given that we later find out the Gods can he influenced by mortal beliefs, often quite heavily (Odin being crazy because the previous world's Northerners believed magic was for simpletons, with Odin being the northern god of magic, Thor being blond, ETC), maybe that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. When he was a mortal, there might have been a provision for that, but, if most people don't know, then, as far as they're concerned, he'll  go with whatever the Council voted for, no matter how blatant the vote-rigging...Which, by the nature of being a God, means that he HAS to accept a tainted vote.


Belief influencing change is presumed to take a long time. Thor, for example, doesn't hate trees despite all dwarves ardently believing he does in this world.

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## ZhonLord

It's probably more that his ascension to being a demigod was partially tied to that oath, so he came into being with it binding his demideific actions.

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## Fyraltari

> Belief influencing change is presumed to take a long time. Thor, for example, doesn't hate trees despite all dwarves ardently believing he does in this world.


Thor is likely still influenced by the previous world like his father did, while Dvalin is from this world.

Also Thor is a major god of the Northern Pantheon and we don't know which percentage of Northerners are dwarves. Meanwhile Dvalin's divine title is "First King of the dwarves", I think it's safe to say that at least 90% of his followers are dwarves.

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## Peelee

> It's probably more that his ascension to being a demigod was partially tied to that oath, so he came into being with it binding his demideific actions.





> Thor is likely still influenced by the previous world like his father did, while Dvalin is from this world.
> 
> Also Thor is a major god of the Northern Pantheon and we don't know which percentage of Northerners are dwarves. Meanwhile Dvalin's divine title is "First King of the dwarves", I think it's safe to say that at least 90% of his followers are dwarves.


Those are both fair.

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## Lord Torath

> It has to be worn to use its magic.


More specifically, it has to be worn _correctly_ (at least in previous editions, not certain about 3.X) which means on a finger.  Wearing it on your toe doesn't count.  Neither does wearing it on any other appendages.

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## woweedd

> More specifically, it has to be worn _correctly_ (at least in previous editions, not certain about 3.X) which means on a finger.  Wearing it on your toe doesn't count.  Neither does wearing it on any other appendages.


And, as we all know, Rich has never once bent inconsequential rule details for the sake of comedy/plot.

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## Metastachydium

> And, as we all know, Rich has never once bent inconsequential rule details for the sake of comedy/plot.


I'd say that's beside the point. The Giant didn't have to break a single rule for the scene to work. (Mind you: that we do not _see_ the ring on Belkar's fingers when he emerges from the pit means nothing; V, Lien, Tsukiko and Tarquin all have rings that they wear pretty much constantly and they are hardly ever shown unless removed.)

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## Ruck

> And, as we all know, Rich has never once bent inconsequential rule details for the sake of comedy/plot.


But in this case, we're supposed to believe he bent a rule based on an assumption of what's happening in the scene that isn't supported by the text.

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## woweedd

It somehow took until now to realize: When we first learn Elan and Nale's backstory, Elan theroizes, based on his bardic knowledge of tropes, that they never learned about each other in order to increase the dramatic tension should they encounter each other as adults. And, as we later learn, at least in Tarquin's case, that was, in fact, the exact reason. There is nothing funnier then when Elan is RIGHT about something.

Also, sidebar: In #50, we see in flashback that one of the causes of Elan's stupidity was Nale slapping him as a baby, and then, when Nale slaps Elan as an adult in the present, it does the opposite and actually makes him smarter, albeit briefly.

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