# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 > Pathfinder Improving the Crossbow for Pathfinder

## Sarone

I am looking to figure out ways to improve the crossbow without using extensive magic or feats in Pathfinder 1st Edition. I know master work will improve the Attack roll, but is there other ways to improve the crossbow?

The reason for this is due to both a player perspective as well as equipping a local militia in the campaign I am in.  I intend to take Leadership for my character, who is becoming the diplomatic face for the group.

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## Darg

Some combat modifiers can help. Entangling foes, building fortifications to force enemies to squeeze through spaces or get caught flat footed some how. Another advantage to crossbows is that you can go prone and use them without penalty. So cover and prone gives them a total of +8 AC against ranged attacks vs the +6 of just kneeling.

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## Kurald Galain

Bring a bard. Even a first-level bard can use his bard song to improve a lot of nearby crossbowmen.

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## Sarone

> Some combat modifiers can help. Entangling foes, building fortifications to force enemies to squeeze through spaces or get caught flat footed some how. Another advantage to crossbows is that you can go prone and use them without penalty. So cover and prone gives them a total of +8 AC against ranged attacks vs the +6 of just kneeling.


Good use of tactics would be useful.  Thank you for the feedback.




> Bring a bard. Even a first-level bard can use his bard song to improve a lot of nearby crossbowmen.


Buffers are almost universal.  Bards, clerics, and other methods is a side effect.  Heck, a first level bard with first level cleric can be a huge force multiplier for a squad of NPC warriors.

Thank you for the feedback.

So, besides these two options, what individual options for equipment that could improve the crossbow?

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## Darg

> Good use of tactics would be useful.  Thank you for the feedback.
> 
> 
> 
> Buffers are almost universal.  Bards, clerics, and other methods is a side effect.  Heck, a first level bard with first level cleric can be a huge force multiplier for a squad of NPC warriors.
> 
> Thank you for the feedback.
> 
> So, besides these two options, what individual options for equipment that could improve the crossbow?


Well, there is the option of oversizing the crossbow for more damage at the cost of the -2 penalty (crossbows can be wielded in one hand). A heavy crossbow goes from 1d10 to 2d8 in 3.5, though I think in PF it goes to 2d6 doesn't it? So not as useful there. But you could just use the great crossbow for 1d12. Other than that, I can't think of any other nonmagical means of improving them. If magical items were an option, then quickloading/self-loading crossbows would be an option.

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## vasilidor

Pricey, but Alchemical bolts. Use for fighting trolls and the like that regen.
for use on skeletons use round heads for bludgeoning damage. They are not available by default in Pathfinder though.

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## Kitsuneymg

Liquid glass material for the heads and razor sharp weapon modification. I have no idea how making the bolts razor sharp affects the proficiency type. But there it is. Super pricy, but a static +2 to damage is decent. 

If youre using 3pp, then the equipment sphere has mechanical savant which works with barrage attacks to add 1/2 bab. The phantom thief class has a feat that allows a mental stat to be added to damage (up to level in class) with crossbows. 

Bolt Ace 5 should get dex to damage.

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## Arutema

Two levels of Medium will let you share the Champion spirit's séance boon with allies for +2 damage on any non-spell attack.

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## Maat Mons

Pathfinder has the Launching Crossbow.  It appears to essentially just work like throwing a splash weapon, but with a better range increment and higher maximum range.  Still, touch attacks from, theoretically, up to 300 feet away.  If you can secure some minions with Craft (Alchemy), you can pay only 1/3rd cost for ammunition.

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## Particle_Man

I think that there is a gunslinger option that uses hand crossbows instead of guns.  I mean, points for style at least.   :Small Smile:

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## Sarone

> Well, there is the option of oversizing the crossbow for more damage at the cost of the -2 penalty (crossbows can be wielded in one hand). A heavy crossbow goes from 1d10 to 2d8 in 3.5, though I think in PF it goes to 2d6 doesn't it? So not as useful there. But you could just use the great crossbow for 1d12. Other than that, I can't think of any other nonmagical means of improving them. If magical items were an option, then quickloading/self-loading crossbows would be an option.


Right now I am just trying to see if there are non-magical options first.

That being said, quickloading/self loading crossbows could be useful.  I just want to see if there any options first.

In regards to feats, I am going to ask if part of that can be mitigated with factions in PF1.




> Liquid glass material for the heads and razor sharp weapon modification. I have no idea how making the bolts razor sharp affects the proficiency type. But there it is. Super pricy, but a static +2 to damage is decent. 
> 
> If youre using 3pp, then the equipment sphere has mechanical savant which works with barrage attacks to add 1/2 bab. The phantom thief class has a feat that allows a mental stat to be added to damage (up to level in class) with crossbows. 
> 
> Bolt Ace 5 should get dex to damage.


Do you have a source for the liquid glass and razor sharp weapons?




> Two levels of Medium will let you share the Champion spirit's séance boon with allies for +2 damage on any non-spell attack.


Interesting.  I will keep this in mind.




> Pathfinder has the Launching Crossbow.  It appears to essentially just work like throwing a splash weapon, but with a better range increment and higher maximum range.  Still, touch attacks from, theoretically, up to 300 feet away.  If you can secure some minions with Craft (Alchemy), you can pay only 1/3rd cost for ammunition.


My main character is an Alchemist in the campaign I am in.  I would consider this if there are ways to modify the Launching Crossbow.




> I think that there is a gunslinger option that uses hand crossbows instead of guns.  I mean, points for style at least.


Something to consider.  I am also trying to setup a faction for the campaign, but that is in a different topic.

Thank you all for the information.  I hope more people come forward with ideas for Crossbows and how to make them better.

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## aimlessPolymath

Some approaches here:
-Poison is expensive but powerful- drow poison causes unconsciousness, which is plenty of time to put someone in chains
-Using the retraining rules to turn commoners or into fighters takes 7 days of training, providing +1 BAB over a commoner's +0 as well as a solid hit point / armor proficicency bonus. 
-Going from the PFSRD, acid bolts and fire bolts (original source: Pathfinder #15 Second Darkness: The Armageddon Echo) add 1d4 acid and fire damage, respectively, at a high price of 40-50 gp per bolt.
-From the same site, there are a variety of variant arrows which could be repurposed as bolts with GM permission, like Splintercloud arrows (5 ft burst around target, DC 18 reflex or 1d3 piercing, good vs. massed forces, 25 gp), Thistle arrows(cause 1hp bleed for 1d6 rounds unless healed, 1 gp but requires special toxic herbs), or lodestone arrows for hard armored targets (10 gp, +4 to attack vs. metal armor but deal half damage- good with poison. good against full plate or cover where few attacks are likely to hit)

Some special materials: 
-Cryptstone: +10 gp/bolt, +1 damage vs. undead and can hit incorporeal undead as though it were a magic weapon 
-Elysian bronze, +20 gp/bolt, +1 damage vs. magical beasts and monstrous humanoids, on hit gain +1 to attack rolls vs. that specific creature type (chimeras, not magical beasts) for 24 hours. Good for a first volley if you're worried about fighting monsters- the militia can use it for a first wave of shots, then fire volleys while benefiting from the bonus, 


Razor-sharp is from Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurers Armory 2, but you can read about it through the PFSRD. Note that weapon modifications increase the effective 'proficiency level' of a weapon by one- you need martial weapon proficiency to wield a simple modified weapon, for example.

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## Maat Mons

If you're adapting types of arrows into types of bolts, Durable Arrows might be interesting.  It looks like you can make them out of special materials for the same cost as making any other ammunition out of those same materials.  But since Durable Arrows don't break, you won't have to worry about buying or crafting new ones all the time.

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## Sarone

> Some approaches here:
> -Poison is expensive but powerful- drow poison causes unconsciousness, which is plenty of time to put someone in chains
> -Using the retraining rules to turn commoners or into fighters takes 7 days of training, providing +1 BAB over a commoner's +0 as well as a solid hit point / armor proficicency bonus. 
> -Going from the PFSRD, acid bolts and fire bolts (original source: Pathfinder #15 Second Darkness: The Armageddon Echo) add 1d4 acid and fire damage, respectively, at a high price of 40-50 gp per bolt.
> -From the same site, there are a variety of variant arrows which could be repurposed as bolts with GM permission, like Splintercloud arrows (5 ft burst around target, DC 18 reflex or 1d3 piercing, good vs. massed forces, 25 gp), Thistle arrows(cause 1hp bleed for 1d6 rounds unless healed, 1 gp but requires special toxic herbs), or lodestone arrows for hard armored targets (10 gp, +4 to attack vs. metal armor but deal half damage- good with poison. good against full plate or cover where few attacks are likely to hit)
> 
> Some special materials: 
> -Cryptstone: +10 gp/bolt, +1 damage vs. undead and can hit incorporeal undead as though it were a magic weapon 
> -Elysian bronze, +20 gp/bolt, +1 damage vs. magical beasts and monstrous humanoids, on hit gain +1 to attack rolls vs. that specific creature type (chimeras, not magical beasts) for 24 hours. Good for a first volley if you're worried about fighting monsters- the militia can use it for a first wave of shots, then fire volleys while benefiting from the bonus, 
> ...


Thank you for the information.  I will need to check these out.  My intent is to equip my character as well as an organization.

Also, I am thinking about using alchemists and rangers, as the idea of using just fighters doesn't sit right.  I want to see that "teams" can be flexible enough to at least take care of themselves until the PCs arrive.




> If you're adapting types of arrows into types of bolts, Durable Arrows might be interesting.  It looks like you can make them out of special materials for the same cost as making any other ammunition out of those same materials.  But since Durable Arrows don't break, you won't have to worry about buying or crafting new ones all the time.


I will definitely look into this.  While it might be expensive, it can also be useful for an alpha strike.

Thank you both for the assistance.

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## Kitsuneymg

> Razor-sharp is from Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurers Armory 2, but you can read about it through the PFSRD. Note that weapon modifications increase the effective 'proficiency level' of a weapon by one- you need martial weapon proficiency to wield a simple modified weapon, for example.


Razor sharp doesnt seem to do anything to bows. The arrows/bolts dont use proficientcy; thats the crossbow itself.

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## AZGrowler

> I think that there is a gunslinger option that uses hand crossbows instead of guns.  I mean, points for style at least.


The Bolt Ace can use any type of crossbow, from the hand crossbow to heavy crossbows.  They have to choose a specific type to specialize in at 5th level, just like a gunslinger specializes in a type of firearm.

Like other gunslingers, the Bolt Ace could be considered a 5 level class.  After that, you're probably better off picking another class for their benefits, e.g., fighter for feats, paladin for smites, slayer for sneak attack, etc.

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## Agi Hammerthief

> The Bolt Ace can use any type of crossbow, from the hand crossbow to heavy crossbows.  They have to choose a specific type to specialize in at 5th level, just like a gunslinger specializes in a type of firearm.
> 
> Like other gunslingers, the Bolt Ace could be considered a 5 level class.  After that, you're probably better off picking another class for their benefits, e.g., fighter for feats, paladin for smites, slayer for sneak attack, etc.


one of my co-players build a Bolt Ace, was very effective with the Dex to damage.

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