# Forum > Discussion > Media Discussions > TV Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

## Fyraltari

Hey guys, since I am, well, watching _The Clone Wars_ for the first time, I thought I'd make one of these threads to share my reactions with those of you who might be interested.

First some context. I first watched _Clone Wars_ (2003) when I was a wee lad on YouTube and liked it. I went to see the _The clone Wars_ movie in theater in 2008 and did not like it. Since then I had heard good things about the show but wasn't interested enough to watch it. Then I heard aboout _Rebels_ and wasn't interested either. But then I heard Grand Admiral Thrawn was in _Rebels_ so I watched the **** out of it. About a year and half ago I thought that since I overall enjoyed _Rebels_vI should give _The Clone Wars_ a shot. The first episode bored me and I never got back to it. But with season seven out a friend kept pestering me to watch it. So I am now.


Let's go!

Some ground rules for the thread, when discussing episodes further down the line than the one I am currently at please use spoiler boxes if possible do advertise what season/episode those spoilers are from. Since some stories are broken down into several episodes I will review them story by story rather than episode by episode.

Now, I am not going into this blind, as I have heard about some plot developments from second-hand sources and seen videos floating on the Web. Meaning that I am aware that
*Spoiler*
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a frog Jedi named Ping-Pong or something defects to the Dark Side, Maul comes back and tries to make his brother a Sith and get rekt involving Mandalorians, Obi-Wan falls in love, Tarkin shows up, Boba Fett shows up and Ahsoka get kicked out the order because some other Jedi got to the Dark Side (don't remember which one just that it was a humanoid female).


*Spoiler: On the show in general*
Show


So this is a kid show. Clearly I can't expect it to get too gruesome and I should expect some kiddie writing regarding subjects as politics and war. Like, ain't no way there'll be an in-depth exploration of anti-alien prejudice used as a metaphor for *_ahem_* Real life verboten subjects, nor will I see Yoda order soldiers shot for desertion. Come to think of it, It really must have helped that the ennemy fields faceless interchangeable bloodless robots as their army. But then again, this is Dave filoni so I trust that the writing will be good most of the time if not all of the time.
The animation looks good enough for being twelve years old. I hope it gets better, especially for the last season.
Let's talk Ahsoka. Ahsoka is a kid-appeal character. Somebody the children watching can identify with (and a better done one than _The Phantom Menace_ Anakin. In itslef, that's no problem but what bugs me is that she is Anakin's padawan. What the hell? He isn't a master! That's an important plot point of _Revenge_, that the council doesn't trust him with that kind of responsability. That was one of my gripes with the pilot movie I remember it clearly. Well, maybe they've found a way to make that work. I'll see.
Of course since this is a prequel show I know very well that most named characters can't die because they show up in [I]Revenge of the Sith[/I and in the case of Ahsoka, _Rebels_ (though at the time that didn't exist so I can't blame them for nay death fake-out) and in Rex's as an old soldier in _Return of the Jedi_ also _Rebels_ with a couple clones named Wolf and Idon'tremember who I guess I'll meet here. I hope they don't try to make us think Anakin got killed or something.


Also I guess the episodes have titles but the site I watch them only list numbers so that's what I'll use.

With that out of the way let's go go go go! I have already watched half a dozen episodes so here goes:

*Spoiler: Season 1, Episode 1: Ambush*
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Yoda and Ventress competes to get the toydarians (I think) on their side of the conflict.
Seen that one ages ago. No intention of rewatching it. It's Yoda vs Ventress, I mean, do I need to tell you who's going to win? There's a neat bit where Yoda tells the clones that they all look different through the eyes of the Force.
Next!


*Spoiler: Season 1, Episodes 2-4: Rising/Shadow of/Destroy Malevolence*
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Hey a three-parter! The separatists have a new secret weapon a myserious cruiser named _the Malevolence_ armed with an ion cannon that can disable ships. So ion cannons were cutting edge tech during the Clone Wars, I like that, technological progress yo! Are Grievous and Dooku really both needed on-board though? Master Plo Koon discovres the weapon by being fired on and losing his fleet. Everybody gets killed except him and a handfull of clones. The clones think they're disposable and nobody will rescue them but Plo disagrees. Anakin and Ahsoka agree, though as they only care about rescuing Plo Koon who was the one who brought Ahsoka in. There's some fighting in space, turns out Plo Koon can just go in space in his Jedi robes and be basically fine. Ahsoka and Anakin are flying a weird ship that I think they found in that godawful pilot movie.

Second part has them hunt down the Malevolence as it is about to attack a space war hospital because Grievous (Dooku left between episodes) is a prick. There's a big nebula in the way so every one has to take the long route but Anakin decides to be cocky and go through witha squadron including Ahsoka, Plo Koon and some redshirts. Anakin outmaneuvers the ion weapon but his instance on geeting the bridge (and Grievous) gets his squad slaughtered. So he decides to shoot the ion cannon because that's easier somehow. This damages enough the enny ship that the hyperdrive won't work when Kenobi gets there with his fleet.

Third part has Grievous desperately trying to run away without an hyperdive but sidious sends Padmé to him by lying to her (sounds like an awful risk to blow his cover are Grievous and that weapon really that important to his plans?). Padmé ship is captured so the Jedi halt their fire and mount a rescue mission. There's some decent action even a Grievous/Obi-wan sort of fight (hello there!). that reminds me: Anakin and Grievous met for thr first time in _Revenge_ are they going to spend the whole show dancing around each other? Always enterign a room just as the other one leaves? Anyway, Padmé and Anakin have a moment. Aaaand this kid show has already given me more chemistry between these two than three entire movies. Great job Lucas. They manage to escape and to trick Grievous into thinking his hyperdrive was repared when it wasn't (because battle droids are really, really dumb) which explodes the ship when they try to turn it on. Victory!
Moving on.


*Spoiler:  Season 1, Episode 5: Rookies*
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A standalone one. We meet a bunch of clones manning a watchtower near Kamino. The Clones are Echo (the by-the-book serious one), Heavy (the heavy weapons guy), Fives (the bland one), sergeant DeadMan of the Walking family, Wormfood, Redshirt #1 and Redshirt #2. This is the most tranquil post of the whole war and, being a bunch of new meat they bored out of their skulls.  But excitment soon arrive in the form of commando battle-droids iside a fake meteorite shower and hot damn why couldn't these guys be the baseline Separatist soldiers? Adequately competent, more sinister looking than their mainstream bretren and, most importantly, _they shut up_! The droids take over the outpost forcing the only survivors (Heavy, Echo an Fives) to flee. The invaders report to Grievous (who is leading an attack fleet to Kamino) that they've hardwired the "all-clear" signal so the Republic won't see him coming. Fortunately Cody and Rex are on their way to inspect the watchtower. The droids fail to fool them by putting clone armor on and emulating their voices (points for trying though) and Rex and Cody meet the survivors. Rex calls them _shinies_, "Your amor is brand new and shiny... Just like you". They manage to take back the outpost by fooling the droids in turn (using a droids severed head as a disguise) but Grievous, in a shocking moment of competence, gets worried his team isn't reporting and sends more droids to check on them. Seeing that the clones decide to blow the tower up using their fuel, reasonning that the "all-clear signal" acts as a deadman switch and the Jedi will figure it out. Problem is the detonators aren't working. The clons flee as the droids enter (and manage to miss them in a literal corridor) bu Heavy stays behind and activates the detonators manuall destroying the outpost, the droids and himself. (Droid: "Do we take prisoners?" Heavy: "I don't" somewhat badass but it makes me wonder if the Geneva Convention exists in _Star Wars_. Man the Republic would be in so much trouble if it did.) Ahsobiwanakin arrives with their fleet Adn Grievous flees, out-gunned (seriously? You invade the second-most well defended planet in the Republic with not enough firepower to ougun three crusers!)
Echo and Fives are commanded for their actions and integrated into the 501st under Rex and Anakin. Hope we see more of these two.

Okay, that was the best episode so far. The clones were likeable and as original characters eminently killable. I didn't expect Heavy and the fourth one to make it out of the station to die. The commando droids were legitimely threatening and had a cool design. I hope they show up more too. also Ventress is on Kamino spying for Grievous. Ominous.
Let's see what's next!


*Spoiler: Season 1, Episodes 6 & 7: Downfall of a Droid & Duel of the Droids*
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Okay, this is stupid. So we open well enough with a cool space battle between Anakin and Grievous (You guys have other officers right in your armies, right?) where both take advantage of a nearby asteroid ring (Hey look asteroids realistically portrayed!) Grievous as cover for his ships and Anakin as an ambush spot for his land vehicles shooting the ennemy from behind! Damn, that was clever. Anakin leads a fighter squad while the twelvish-year old Ahsoka commands the cruisers (Jedi are ****ed up, man). Anakin even does a spin, neat trick. They win. But then the dumb comes in. OH NOES, ARTOO IS DEAD! Anakin of course refuse to believe this and frantically look for his secret wife's gift best buddy all over the place. Obi-Wan disaproves but is forced to relent when Anakin reveals Artoo memory banks contains all of the Republic strategise. The Astromech's memories contains the strategies. Why. Anakin is given aremplacement, R3-S4, who quickly proves to be unreliable almsot getting Anakin killed a few times. Ahsoka and Ani find a trandoshan scavenger who may have found Artoo. As they search his ship (even though he said he didn't have the droid) R3 activates some IG assassin droids who prove to be somewhat a nuisance. Anisoka then leave without paying the scavenger for the droids they wrecked and the damaged to his other cargo. This attitude is why the Republic turned on you, guys. Anyway, turns out the guy did find Artooo and is selling him to Grievous. Do you not have underlings to do that for you, you mechanical idiot!?
In the second part the heroes find a Separatist listening post used to spy on their communications. This is also where Grievous meets the Trandoshan (and rewards him with murder). Anakin, Rex, Ahsoka and some clones infiltartes the station to destroy it but little orphan Ani leaves the mission t rescue Artoo. ahsoka ends up dueling Grievous while the clones pose bombs. This is a okay duel as they end up playing cat and mouse and Grievous actually looks menacing. He even mentions adding Ahsoka's lightsaber to his collection (are trying to cram all the memes they can into this show? Also I wonder how he strated his collection, did he fight with an electro-staff before?). Turns out R3 was a traitor (shocking I know). They all manage to get away as the station is destroyed (well all only Rex and one other clone* made it). Is it me or is Grievous' escape a reused animation? R2 got to duel his evil knowk-off to the death, riveting.

Except for the duela and the opening there isn't much good to say of this episode, moving along.
*I'm guessing this guy taught Wedge Antilles all he knows.


*Spoiler: Season 1, Episode 8: Bombad Jedi*
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This is where I am at. A standalone one. Pdamé is going on a diplomatic mission to Rodia. And oh god why is Jar Jar here!? The rodians have been courted pretty hard by the Separatists and Palaptine of all people is worried for Padmé's safety. She says they can't solve every problem by throwing troops at it. Padmé, you used to have bodyguards and decoys, this is ont the same thing and you know it. As she lands she orders 3-PO and Jar Jar to stay inside the ship. Why even bring them along then? The rodian leader is a family friend of Padmé but because his people are starving for some reason he joined the Separatists in exchange for food and is capturing her to give her to Grievous Gunray! Hey another Separatist leader. Wait. Jar Jar Padmé and Gunray? Is this a _Phantom Meance_ remake? Are Sebulba and Watto going to jump in from behind a rock? B1 droids try to arrest Jar Jar and 3-PO. Wow, _Star Wars_ top three least funny comic relief all together in one room. Hilarity does not ensue. 3PO and Jar Jar beats them with a giant magnet that somehow doesn't fry 3-PO's circuits but the ship is destroyed. They try to make us think Jar Jar is dead but I watched RotS, so I know I'm not that lukcy. Jar Jar finds one of anakin's robes (you are terrible at this secret lovers thing, Ani) and put it on because this is this sorry excuse for a character's idea of a disguise. As Padmé is locked up by droids she says to her rodian "uncle" who protested "Welcome to the Separatists' world" (I guess the Republic only cuffs their prisoners' feet). Jar Jar ends up mistaken for a Jedi  as he spies on Gunray and the rodian (who speaks in Basic to his aid who answers in Rodianese for reasons too great for mortal minds to comprehend). He barely escapes death by jumping into a swamp where a bigh fish almost eat him. Padmé hears that a Jedi is here and tricks her guards into opening the door of her cell (god, these droids are dumb), she then proceed to kick them to death. (New headcannon! B1 droids are not actually made of metal but of some sort of brittle plastic). She escapes and meet Threepio who explains Jar Jar is rescuing her. She sends him to contact the Rpublic and goes to rescue Jar Jar. This ends poorly. Threepio gets past the droids guarding the comm room by pretending to be a Saparatist. That reminds me of _A New Hope_ back when Threepio could be somewhat competent and snarky. Anway, he gets a message out but is captured alognside Padmé. Jar Jar (who was thought dead by the Separatists) intervenes and... Ugh... saves... the day... with the help of the big fish, who turns out, is amphibian. Gunray tries to flee just a sthe clone arrives and is topped by the rodian who didn't like how Gunray basically postponed the food delivery forever in a previous scene. Gunray is arrested (not to worry, the Republic will keep the moral high ground by keeping him out of bondage in an unlocked cell), Jar Jar is congratulated by Palpatine who low-key dissed him earlier and Rodia is promised food in exchange of their servitude loyalty to the Republic.

Okay. This was really dumb, but at least it wasn't boring. Gunray getting captured is interesting. Obviously he will get out before _Revenge_ but still, on paper it's a major victory for the Republic and possibly a security risk for Palpatine dependign on wether Gunray recognized Sidious.


Right, that's it for today!

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## dancrilis

> *Spoiler: On the show in general*
> Show
> 
> 
> In itslef, that's no problem but what bugs me is that she is Anakin's padawan. What the hell? He isn't a master!


*Spoiler: not actually a spoiler for anything in the show but as I am answering a spoiler it seems appropriate*
Show


I kindof felt the same way but in fairness at the end of The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan was made and Knight and took a Padawan immediately - so one does not have to be a master to have a padawan



Seperately in case you haven't heard - the show does not follow linear time, as such earlier episodes occassionally occur chronologically after later ones - normally it doesn't matter but sometimes it does.

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## Peelee

> *Spoiler: On the show in general*
> Show
> 
> 
> Let's talk Ahsoka. Ahsoka is a kid-appeal character. Somebody the children watching can identify with (and a better done one than _The Phantom Menace_ Anakin. In itslef, that's no problem but what bugs me is that she is Anakin's padawan. What the hell? He isn't a master!


*Spoiler*
Show

Why would he need to be a Master? Kenobi is promoted to Knight in Episode I and immediately takes on Anakin as a Padawan, so we know that Knights can take Padawans.

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## Fyraltari

That spoiler was mostly for ease of reading.

Because that's what the rank means? A padawan learns, a knight is good enough to be independant and a master is good enought to teach. It has always been my understanding that Obi-Wan was catapulted from padawan to master at the end of TPM both to respect Qui-Gon's wishes and because he just killed a Sith Lord in single combat. Is there any piece of lore in either canon that portrays Obi-Wan as a knight?

I mean if knights can have padawans how are they different from masters who aren't on the Council? Why aren't they masters even though they are somebody's master?

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## dancrilis

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Why would he need to be a Master? Kenobi is promoted to Knight in Episode I and immediately takes on Anakin as a Padawan, so we know that Knights can take Padawans.


*Spoiler*
Show


I made the same point above, but in fairness if your only exposure to Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker was Episode 2 then you wouldn't trust him to mind an imaginary rock let alone take on the responsibility for the moral and emotional development of a superpowered child.

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## Peelee

> That spoiler was mostly for ease of reading.
> 
> Because that's what the rank means? A padawan learns, a knight is good enough to be independant and a master is good enought to teach. It has always been my understanding that Obi-Wan was catapulted from padawan to master at the end of TPM both to respect Qui-Gon's wishes and because he just killed a Sith Lord in single combat. Is there any piece of lore in either canon that portrays Obi-Wan as a knight?
> 
> I mean if knights can have padawans how are they different from masters who aren't on the Council? Why aren't they masters even though they are somebody's master?


There's that Yoda explicitly says "Confer on you, the level of Jedi Knight the Coucil does. But agree on you taking this boy as your Padawan learner, _I_ do not.... Agree, the council does. Your apprentice, young Skywalker will be." So they elevated him to Knight and gave him a Padawan. Knights are good enough to teach. I think of it like a grad student teaching undergrads, or an adjunct professor instead of one who has tenure.

Oh, a couple of other things: 


> *Spoiler: Episodes 6 & 7*
> Show
> 
> Anakin and Grievous (You guys have other officers right in your armies, right?)


No. No, they do not.

And finally, Season 2, Episode 11 is my fave. Excited for you to get to that one.



> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> I made the same point above, but in fairness if your only exposure to Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker was Episode 2 then you wouldn't trust him mind an imaginary rock let alone take on the responsibility for the moral and emotional development of a superpowered child.


They do cover that in the movie pilot, though; the council hopes that having a Padawan (especially an older, headstrong one) will force him to be more mindful of his own shortcomings.

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## Fyraltari

> There's that Yoda explicitly says "Confer on you, the level of Jedi Knight the Coucil does. But agree on you taking this boy as your Padawan learner, _I_ do not.... Agree, the council does. Your apprentice, young Skywalker will be." So they elevated him to Knight and gave him a Padawan. Knights are good enough to teach. I think of it like a grad student teaching undergrads, or an adjunct professor instead of one who has tenure.


Meah, I am in no hurry to rewatch TPM.
Does make padawans, squires?




> Oh, a couple of other things: 
> No. No, they do not.


Oh, dangnabit.




> And finally, Season 2, Episode 11 is my fave. Excited for you to get to that one.


Well now, I'm excited.




> They do cover that in the movie pilot, though; the council hopes that having a Padawan (especially an older, headstrong one) will force him to be more mindful of his own shortcomings.


Ah, so they're throwing her under the bus then?

EDIT: Also, Wulf Yularen imperial spymaster and head of the Imperial Security Bureau got outspied by an astromech. That is hilarious.

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## Jasdoif

Hey, it sounds like you got through (most of) the "we're just starting out and haven't quite figured out what we should be doing with this series yet" episodes in one sitting!




> I mean if knights can have padawans how are they different from masters who aren't on the Council? Why aren't they masters even though they are somebody's master?


I'm sure this has been changed numerous times, but I have the impression that successfully mentoring a padawan to Knight-hood is a sign of being eligible/worthy of the title of Jedi Master.

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## Fyraltari

> Hey, it sounds like you got through (most of) the "we're just starting out and haven't quite figured out what we should be doing with this series yet" episodes in one sitting!


Well, I only had the idea of making this thread after like episode 6 or 7 so more like 4-5 sittings.
also glad to know the bad stuff is mostly behind me. I was afraid the whole of season 1 would be like that.

Edit:




> I'm sure this has been changed numerous times, but I have the impression that successfully mentoring a padawan to Knight-hood is a sign of being eligible/worthy of the title of Jedi Master.


That sort of makes sense, but I feel this would have come up in _Revenge of the Sith_, then.

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## dancrilis

> also glad to know the bad stuff is mostly behind me. I was afraid the whole of season 1 would be like that.


On the whole it is a good show (personal opinion etc) but there is plenty of bad ahead ... maybe do yourself a favour and skip the Jar-Jar episodes (which are admittedly rare).

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## Peelee

> Oh, dangnabit.


Oh, I agree so much. The show could have been titled "Star Wars: Watch Grievous Run Away" instead.



> Ah, so they're throwing her under the bus then?


Pretty much. The show could have been titled "Star Wars: Ahsoka Gets Thrown Under the Bus" instead.




> Hey, it sounds like you got through (most of) the "we're just starting out and haven't quite figured out what we should be doing with this series yet" episodes in one sitting!


Indeed. Handy!



> I'm sure this has been changed numerous times, but I have the impression that successfully mentoring a padawan to Knight-hood is a sign of being eligible/worthy of the title of Jedi Master.


Correct at some point in time. I have no clue if that is still correct. Always in motion Star Wars canon is.



> Well, I only had the idea of making this thread after like episode 6 or 7 so more like 4-5 sittings.
> also glad to know the bad stuff is mostly behind me. I was afraid the whole of season 1 would be like that.


Oh, there's still bad stuff. My main issue against TCW is bad individual episodes but good overall arcs. The ratio of bad to good episodes does significantly increase, though, so yay for that.



> That sort of makes sense, but I feel this would have come up in _Revenge of the Sith_, then.


*Spoiler: Season 6 spoilers*
Show

Well, Jasdoif did say "successfully".

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## Fyraltari

> On the whole it is a good show (personal opinion etc) but there is plenty of bad ahead ... maybe do yourself a favour and skip the Jar-Jar episodes (which are admittedly rare).


I appreciate this advice but I am nothing if not an insufferable completionist so I won't follow it.  :Small Tongue: 

Besides now that I am going to post story by story, I'll make the summaries more detailed so I will be able to riff on Jar Jar more.

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## Jasdoif

> also glad to know the bad stuff is mostly behind me. I was afraid the whole of season 1 would be like that.


To be clear, most of the seasons have a couple subpar episodes (usually the Senate and/or Force-as-spiritualism episodes; I think one of the Filoni interviews said George Lucas insisted each season have at least one of each?); but they're still better executed than the beginning of season 1.




> That sort of makes sense, but I feel this would have come up in _Revenge of the Sith_, then.


Don't know what to tell you...There are a lot of things that should have come up in _Revenge of the Sith_, and a lot of things that weren't established until after _Revenge of the Sith_.




> ... maybe do yourself a favour and skip the Jar-Jar episodes (which are admittedly rare).


I disagree; the later Jar-Jar episodes, that portray him as sort of an "idiot savant" instead of just an idiot, are fairly good....And making Jar-Jar look more than tolerable is an accomplishment worth seeing.

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## Peelee

> Don't know what to tell you...There are a lot of things that should have come up in _Revenge of the Sith_, and a lot of things that weren't established until after _Revenge of the Sith_.


Yeah, not terribly fantastic planning there, really.

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## Fyraltari

> Seperately in case you haven't heard - the show does not follow linear time, as such earlier episodes occassionally occur chronologically after later ones - normally it doesn't matter but sometimes it does.


Thanks Ill keep that in mind.



> I'm sure this has been changed numerous times, but I have the impression that successfully mentoring a padawan to Knight-hood is a sign of being eligible/worthy of the title of Jedi Master.


Thinking about that again, that doesnt mesh with Obi-Wan being a master when Anakin is still a Palawan back in _Attack of the Clones_



> To be clear, most of the seasons have a couple subpar episodes (usually the Senate and/or Force-as-spiritualism episodes; I think one of the Filoni interviews said George Lucas insisted each season have at least one of each?); but they're still better executed than the beginning of season 1.


Interesting, the Force as mysticism is usually my favorite part of _Star Wars_. Well see how that pans out.




> Don't know what to tell you...There are a lot of things that should have come up in _Revenge of the Sith_, and a lot of things that weren't established until after _Revenge of the Sith_.


Well, when writing a prequel thats the sort of things one should keep an eye out for.




> I disagree; the later Jar-Jar episodes, that portray him as sort of an "idiot savant" instead of just an idiot, are fairly good....And making Jar-Jar look more than tolerable is an accomplishment worth seeing.


That would be impressive, yes.

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## Jasdoif

> Originally Posted by Jasdoif
> 
> 
> I'm sure this has been changed numerous times, but I have the impression that successfully mentoring a padawan to Knight-hood is a sign of being eligible/worthy of the title of Jedi Master.
> 
> 
> Thinking about that again, that doesnt mesh with Obi-Wan being a master when Anakin is still a Palawan back in _Attack of the Clones_


Okay, I dug around...and while successfully training Padawans (or depending on where you look, *a* Padawan) is the most _common_, one can also attain the title of Master by completing a modified version of the Trials of Knighthood, or being recognized by the High Council for service to the Republic.

Of course, if anything of the sort had been intended from the beginning, those trials would have their own fancy title (like Trials of Mastery) like most things in Star Wars; so this sounds like an official excuse for the discrepancy you noted, and the "service to the Republic" bit is probably supposed to justify Anakin's expectation of being made a Master on his appointment to the High Council.

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## dancrilis

> Okay, I dug around...and while successfully training Padawans (or depending on where you look, *a* Padawan) is the most _common_, one can also attain the title of Master by completing a modified version of the Trials of Knighthood, or being recognized by the High Council for service to the Republic.
> 
> Of course, if anything of the sort had been intended from the beginning, those trials would have their own fancy title (like Trials of Mastery) like most things in Star Wars; so this sounds like an official excuse for the discrepancy you noted, and the "service to the Republic" bit is probably supposed to justify Anakin's expectation of being made a Master on his appointment to the High Council.


Taking a look at it it seems like the current canon might be 'the council feels you are a Jedi Master so you are - no other criteria needed, no specific responsibility confered', if that is accurate then it does imply a direct snub to Anakin i.e 'you can sit at the cool kids table because we have been told we had to let you, but let us be clear you are not one of the cool kids'.

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## Fyraltari

Right, so turns out the last episode wasn't a stand alone but the first of a three-parter. I figured I could use TvTropes' recap page to find the epiosdes' titles and know which are which but the titles are spoilery (like seriously: _Dooku captured_? That's _Attack of the cybermen_-level spoilage).
However, the episodes are only loosely connected, so screw it. I'm doing these episode from episode.

*Season 1, Episode 9: Cloak of Darkness*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

We open with Ahsoka and Master Luminara Unduli (unusual team-up, is this like a Jedi student exchange with Anakin doing a mission with whoever is Unduli's padawan?) bringing Gunray to a Republic cruiser headed to Coruscant where he will be tried for war crimes (pot, kettle, you know the rest). Gunray is trying to bribe one of his guards, commander Gree of the Green Company (convienient !) who is having none of it and handcuffs him (But isn't that the Separatists' world?). Aboard the cruiser is captain Argaius of the Senate Guard, an elite military unit made of non-clones and wearing blue armor that look like a mix between clone armour and real-life hoplite armor. And I just realized theses are the predecessors to Plapatine's Royal Guards. Neat. Ahsoka wonders why a worm like Gunray warrants such a display of force and Unduli points out the obvious: he has dangerous allies who won't allow him to reach Coruscant.

Indeed we cut to a Separatist warship where Dooku is having a video-conference with Sidious. Sidious worries that a coward like Gunray won't hold long when interrogated by Jedi and orders Dooku to free or kill him. Dooku states that his best warrior, Asajj Ventress is on it. Sidious isn't reassured as Ventress failed before (I mean you guy haven't fired Grievous yet so that seems on-brand). This prompts Dooku to tell Ventress (who is no longer/not yet on Kamino) that failure won't be tolerated this time. She is unfazed.

Back with the Jedi, they are working on Gunray who claims to be an innocent pawn (well he's half right). Unduli is reading his mind and sees that he is protecting "secret allies" and worried of losing his wealth. Ahsoka gets fed up with him and draws her saber to threaten him. Unduli is horrified and tell her that terror isn't the Jedi way. Ahsoka retorts that she wasn't actually going to kill him... That's not the issue, Ahsoka. It worked though as Gunray is now willing to negotiate.

Suddenly droids! A bunch of vulture droids are leading boardships to the cruisers. The clones mount a defense against a swarm of superbattle droids. Last time I said I wished the commando battle droids were the baseline separatist footmen but these guys are pretty good too sharing none of the quirks of the battle droids (though their aim isn't that much better). As the clones get slaughtered, Unduli takes Gree and with her to go fight the ennemy while Ahsoka is to guard Gunray. Gunray meanwhile retracts his offer prompting Ahsoka to tell him that the Separatists may be here to kill him.

Of course the attack is only a diversion as Ventress leaves a dropship and behead a lone clone survivor stealing his comm device. She then proceeds to a big important-looking room (the hyperdrive?) through one of those absurd cinema person-sized well lit air vent and plants bombs everywhere while evading detection of a nearby Republic droid. The dorid gets upset when two clones shorten his number to adress him which got a chuckle out of me. Is that why R2 is always pissed?

Unduli finishes dispatching the superbattledroids meaning Gunray is again willing to "negotiate" however Ventress jumps in the detention area and fighting ensue. Ahsoka and Ventress exchange barbs ending with Ahsoka promising her a "merciful death". Sweet space Jesus, Ahsoka what the hell ahs Anakin been teaching you! Ventress manages to kill a few clones and a couple Senate Guards. Gunray promises her an entire planet if she gets him out alive. She opens his cell and dodge Tano who was trying to kick her. Gunray locks her in and tauntes her. Luminara arrives and fight Ventress for a short while before using the Force to free the padawan. Ventress detonates her bombs and uses the ensuing chaos to flee leaving Gunray behind. Luminara again instructs Ahsoka to stay with Gunray and she pursues the assassin. Ahsoka is worried that even though Unduli is a Master she doesn't know what Ventress is capable of. Did this two meet before? I forget.

Ventress lead Unduli to the wrecked hyperdrive room and they fight, Ventres take sthe advantage by cutting a thing that blows some steam into Luminara's eye (cooling fluid? Or is this shi nuclear powered?). Ahsoka grows ever more restless. Gree thinks she should stay while Argaius says that sometimes being a good soldier means doing what you think is right. Gunray chimes in that hever risks his life unless he is forced to and is then puzzled by the looks he gets in response. She leaves. Ventress activates her comm device. Argaius's rings and he shoots down his own men and ends up in a firefight with Gree. Ahsoka saves Unduli at the last minute and the two of them fight her for a bit but then are warned by Gree of Argaius's treachery. Argaius uses Gunray as a human shield, guessing that Gree won't risk his prize. This seems to work but Gree shoots Argaius's gun out of his hand (oh what the hell man, if you're that precise shoot him in the face it's unpreotected!). Argaius literrally throws Gunray at Gree and kicks his gun out of his hand. The two circle each other as Gree asks Argaius why he is doing this. Argaius doesn't expect a _clone_ to understand not wnating to live a life of servitude and that Dooku promised him  afortune (which he no doubts intends to spend on hair gel for his ridiculous hairdo). The traitors try to reach for a gun on the floor but the clone steps on it and decks him in the face. As Gree gloats at Argaius Gunray knowks hims unconscious using a metal thing. This is why you do the one-liner after overpowering your opponent, Gree. "You should have accepted my offer when you had the chance, _clone_". See? *Gunray gets it*.

Luminara thnaks Ahsoka for saving her life. She answers that that's what the role of a Padawan is. Unduli retorts that the role of a Master is to teach and that "Master Skywalker must be proud". Oh, come on! They fight Ventress some more as she blocks them from going after Argaius and Gunray. These two reach the ship Gunray came aboard in and leg it out of there. The external ships are down because of the chaos so they can jsut do that. Ventress reaches a life pod and leave as well.
Argaius autocongratulates and Gunray tell him that he always had a good feeling about him, jsut at that moment Ventress comes in. Argaius is glad "their" plan worked without a hitch and that he'll be sure to tell Dooku she contributed. She kills him, ostensibly to get all the credit for the success. We get to see his face twitching in agony. Brutal, _me gusta_. "I always had a good feeling about you, assassin" says the slimeball.

Ahsoka and Unduli report to Skywalker and Yoda. Anakin reassures his Padawan that he knows she did her best and Unduli points out that the ship Gunray his on as a tracking beacon and that it seems headed toward the position of Master Fisto's fleet. Yoda is worried by Argaius's betrayal as it seems they are surronded by ennemies.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

That was an excellent episode. Nice fights, good twists and the villains gor to be competent for once. It's interesting to see some anti-clone prejudice. Between that, the clone's objectivel ****ty life and the show's insistance on giving thel various personnalities, I wondered if we'll see one turn on the Republic.
Gunray was much more tolerable here than last episode (or in the prequel) as he got to show that separated from his power base he can be surprisingly resourceful, twice turing the tide of battle by waiting for the right moment to strike as everybody forgot about him.

Ahsoka seems headed some place dark, which isn,'t how I remeber her from _Rebels_. Maybe her arc is inspired by Emperor Ashoka who used to be a bloody warlord but became a pacifist after a battle too many?

This is the kind of episode I am here for.

I have already watched the next one and will do a review in a bit but that is enough for one post, I think.

----------


## Peelee

> Taking a look at it it seems like the current canon might be 'the council feels you are a Jedi Master so you are - no other criteria needed, no specific responsibility confered', if that is accurate then it does imply a direct snub to Anakin i.e 'you can sit at the cool kids table because we have been told we had to let you, but let us be clear you are not one of the cool kids'.


Imean, no matter what that was a snub. They all but said "we have been ordered to let you sit at the table but not been ordered to dub you a master."

----------


## Sapphire Guard

> are trying to cram all the memes they can into this show?


*Spoiler: meme frequency rate*
Show

 Yes. Yes, they are.


Is it a snub if it's the truth?

----------


## Jasdoif

> Imean, no matter what that was a snub. They all but said "we have been ordered to let you sit at the table but not been ordered to dub you a master."


They're absolutely snubbing the Chancellor's meddling in their internal affairs.  Anakin, they're taking for granted.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 1, Episode 10: Lair of Grievous*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Following what happened last time, Master Kit Fisto is tracking Gunray's ship to a remote Outer Rim planet. Alone with his asstromech. I mean, not tkaing his entire fleet is sensible but I feel like this mission warrants a few dozen soldiers. He reports his finding to Unduli and Ahsoka who tell him his former padawan has also followed the beacon and is already on site. Said ex-Padawan is a Mon Calamari named Nadar (Nadal? Something like that), he came with a shuttle and 6 clones. Fisto greets Nadal, congratulates him on his knighthood* and apologizes for missing his trials because of the war. Nadal is understanding even though he missed his master.

Two clones are ordered to stay with the ships as the rest approaches a sinister fortress. Nadal and the lead clone want to force their way in but Fisto notices a hidden button that opens the door. Inside they notice a smell, but not a droid smell (droids smell?). They overhear Gunray talking to some battle droids that they quickly dispatch as the droids marvel at their chance to kill a Jedi for the first time. Fisto notes Nadal enthusiasm and chides him for his lack of restraint. Turns out however that Gunray was only present through hologram. He is quickly repalced by Dooku who aoplogizes for the deception but offers the an "alternate prize" and opens a door before cutting off the communication. They all acknowledge the obvious trap but think Dokoku's wording implies theyare the bait not the trapped and let their curiosity get the better of them (because everything always turn out great for the bait, right?). I wonder if there are cat people in the galaxy far far away? Anyway, as they progress they pass some staues representing an alien warrior standing triumphant over his ennemies. Fisto describes it as some kind of shrine to that warrior (more on that later). They eventually reach some kind of storage room full of masks and spare robot parts. More precisely Grievous's masks and robot parts. Realising that they are in Grievous's lair while he isn't they decide to lay an ambush for him, rather than report their finding and come back with Master Windu and 200 clones. This is why you don't give warrior monks command of your army, people. They also find his trophies from vainquished Jedi. We don't see much but they are a few dozen of those. Most proeminently disposed are the severed ponytails of Padawans. Child-killer.

Cut to Grievous flying his personnal fighter alone. Dooku calls him to say that sidious is unhappy with the progression of the war. It's turning into a stalemate and they want something more dramatic. More dead Jedi. Grievous complains that he only has battle droids and that they're not the best of troops. Dooku tells him to get his act in order and that Sidious and himself need confirmation of Grievous's skills but pointedly doesn't mention the Jedi in his home. Grievous hangs up on Dooku (rude) and lands. As he steps in and is surprised nobody greets him he is attacked by the two Jedi and four clones who surround him and order him to surrender rather than shoot him in the back. Honourable fools. They use grappling guns to lock him in place and cut his legs but he uses his four arms to overpower the clones and crawl/climb to safety like a demented spider-monkey. Have I mentionned how agile Grievous is in this serie? Because I like that. Nadal and two clones try to cut off his escape but the clones get in the Knight's way and Grievous slams them down. He manages to disappear through a secret door to Nadal's frustration who has to be reminded that he isn't experimented enough to take on Grievous alone. Fisto opts to check on their wounded rather than pursue. They're dead.

Grievous, meanwhile, meets with his "doctor" a sassy droid who calls him a poor fighter to his face and get away with it. The General wants to know why is bodyguards (a handful of Magnaguards) are all deactivated and hanging from the ceiling. They received a remote order to deactivate and charge their batteries. The Doctor assumed it was Grievous's. The cyborg tells him to prepare to repair him and go check on our heroes thanks to a control room in the secret section of his castle. just as Fisto decides to call it a day and leave. But grievous isn't having any of that and locks the gate. He taunts Fisto for a bit before opening a trap door under their feet. the Jedis jump in time and the head clone uses his grappling gun to stop his fall but the other clone falls IN A PIT OF LAVA!

Fisto orders the the two clones outside to call for reinforcement but Grievous' guards spot them and blow the shuttle with a rocket. Fisto's astromech manages to take off with his Jedi fighter though, but he gets out of range pretty quick leading Fisto to think he was destroyed. Grievous unleashes a beast named Gore (cute) on the Jedi on gets to his operating table. The doctor wonders why Grievous submitted to  this change but he scoffs at the notion. He does not submit to anyone, these improvements were his choice (more on that later). We cut away as Grievous's mask comes off preventing us to see what remains of his face. The two Jedi and clone reached some kind of arena (mandatory bad feeling about this: Check.) and are confronted by Gore, some kind of demonic T-Rex with long arms and pieaces of armour. Fighting follows. They kill it but the clone is killed in the process. Nadal swears revenge on Grievous. Master Fisto tells him that revenge isn't the Jedi's way, to which Nadal retorts that in war only power counts and that things have changed. Fisto thinks it is Nadal who changed.

Meanwhile Grievous got up from his table and get another call from Dooku. The sith tells him he heard about the Jedi home invaders and wonders if Grievous can handle it. Grievous puts two and two together and accuses him of knowing the Jedi were there and deactivating his droids. Dooku freely admits that it's a test. Destroy or be destroyed. The implication being that should he fail he will be replaced. Most likely by Ventress who proved her worth last tiem. Very Sith-like. Grievous ahngs up on Dooku (rude) and checks on Gore. He then wordlessly screams in anger over his pet's death. Fisto and Nadal got back to where they fought Grievous just in thime to see him and a couple bodyguardds emerge from the secret door. They try to sneak in but the doctor who was watching the cameras sees them and alerts the general. NAdal decides to stay behind to confront Grievous alone. Fisto wants him to come with. Their argument is cut short b the doctor remotely shutting the door trapping Nadal outside. Nadal makes quick work of the Magnaguards but Grievous gets his saber in blade lock and uses his third arm to shoot him with a blaster (so uncivilized). The doctor got so into the fight he completley forgot that he trapped Fisto on his side of the door and quickly gets sliced in half. Just in time for Firsto to powerlessly watch his protégé's death and listen to Grievous scream that he will kill. Every. Single. Jedi. At this monet Fisto's astromech contacts him and he tells him to meet him on the building's roof.

Fisto made it to the roof but unfortunately for him Grievous had read the script and got to him. The two starts to fight and Grievous boastst that he is too powerful for Kit Fisto to defeat. Fisto answers that that very power will consume Grievous. This throws him into a blind rage and allow Fisto to disarm him (the doctor wouldn't be happy if he was still functionnal) and fight two lightsabers against three. It looks like he is winning (he even passes a free shot while Grievous is ont he ground the noble idiot) until the Maganaguards show up and overpower him in combination with their boss. Grievous tell him to surrenders and he switches his saber off. And backflips onto his Jedi fighter that has just arrived. Grievous & Co watch him escape and go back inside to Dooku's hologram. Grievous claims victory which impresses Dooku. Killing the knoght and the clones that was expected but a Master of the Council? That is commendable. Grievous admits that Fisto fled. "Then, it seems there is still rooms for improvement" says the Count as he hangs up on Grievous (rude).

Cut to Fisto talking to Yoda and Windu. They deplore Nadal's death and Fisto laments that he tried to oppose Grievous's power with his own. Yoda darkly wonders what the war is turning his order into.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Fisto is obviously the star of the episode but it really isn't about him. It's about Nadal and Grievous.

Nadal is obvious so let's start with him.
Nadal is young, hotheaded, eager to prove himself, violent and war-weary. His impulsiveness, recent knighthood and darkness within make him a stand-in for anakin and Ahsoka. What the war could turn Ahsoka into if she doesn't wise up and what the wars ahs already made of Anakin. Furthermore he repsresents the corruption of the whole Jedi order. They are letting the conflict get to them and, bit by bit, start to care more about winning the war, deafeating their foes and avenging the fallen rahter than do what's right, bring back peace and protect the living.

But now let's talk about Grievous. There were several very intersting bits about him there. He told the doctor that he chose to be improved but the shrine he built makes that ring hollow. That warrior is, in my opinion, himself in his prime. I know that in _Legends_ he became a cyborg after his ship crashed (an accident orchestrated by Dooku). So it looks to me that he didn't choose to become what he is but he rationalizes it as his choice while still yearning for his past, torturing himself with the memories rahter than moving on with his new life. And what is this life anyway? He kills Jedi. That's it. that's his purpose now. He lives in a giant deathtrap on a dreary foggy planet with no company but a bunch droids and a pet monster. His boss doesn't respect him at all and treats him like a disposable tool. This isn't a life, this is pitiful. As in I literally feel pity for him. Until I remeber that he chose to vent his frustration and his anger by murdering people, including children.
So yeah, I think his hatred of Jedi is because killing them is the only reason he would need to become stronger and wanting to become stronger is the rationalization he came up for his current state. That would explain why Fisto's line about his own power consuming him drove him into rage, because deep down he knows it's true. And also why after killing Nadal he is enraged at _all_ the Jedi rather than just the ones who killed his pet.
Hey, a broken shell of a man, longing for his own past, with no friend or family to speak of, rationalizing his situation as what he wanted rather than facing how far he's fallen, manipulated by an uncaring overlord who would replace him at the first sign of weakness who wallows in self-hatred and externalize said hatred on the Jedi he relentlessly hunts down, doesn't that remind you of someone? Let me tell you, I wasn't really sold on Grievous as the
Prequels' third proto-Vade but that show just made the idea work. Great Job!

What's more, Grievous is acting like a Darksider, using his own misery as fuel for his rage, refusing to acknowledge how self-destructive that is when he isn't even force sensitive. He is the more SIth-like non-Sith ever! And I don't think his working with Dooku is a coincidence either. Dooku would probably encourage this attitude to make him into a perfect blunt weapon to use against the Jedi. Hell, the fact that he can so easily control Grievous's fortress and droids, I wouldn't be surprised to learn he gave this place to Grievous as a bit of gaslighting to ensure Grievous's home would have the appropriate mood for self-hatred and loneliness. This may have been an old Sith hideout even.


Overall the theme her is power. The Sith (and Grievous) crave it like adrug and are willing to destroy themselves to get more. Nadal thought that only power could answer to power and this line of thinking literally killed him. Early on, Fisto says that the important thing about power is to knwo when to use it and how much to use. So, it looks like while the Jedi are beginning to lose their way, their outlook is much more wise and healthier than the Sith's. {scrubbed} 
(BREAKING NEWS: BEARS DISCOVERED BY FYRALTARI TO **** IN WOODS!)
Wow, you guys weren't kidding when you said I was (mostly) done with the bad stuff, this last couple of episode was tremendous!

*That reminds me Anakin's own knighting way back in _Clone Wars_, man what a cool scene.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 1, Episode 11: Dooku Captured*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

We begin as Anakin has been captured by the separatists while hunting for Dooku and Obi-Wan sneaks aboard a droid frigate to rescue him. This feels like there's an episode missing. Kenobi gets to do some Metal Gear action before reaching the detention facility. The first cell holds two random aliens so he locks the door back. Clearly Jedi don't believe in "the ennemy of my my ennemy...". As he tries another cell, Anakin jumps him assuming he was a Separatist interogator. If only you people had psychic powers that would allow you to find and detect one another. Turns out Anakin let himself be captured even entrusting his saber to Obi-Wan to make it more convincing. I mean the onmy reason this isn't maximally suspicious is that there doesn't seem to be a point to this plan at all. Anakin complains that he won't be able to become a Master if Obi-wan keeps making plan that involve his capture. "You are a master... at getting caught!" This is why he's going to kill you all, you know.

They confront Dooku who was meditating just as Ahsoka and a fleet arrive. The Sith Lord takes the time to diss Skywalker before activating a trap door beneath him. Anakin follows through the laundry chute of doom while Kenobi tries to beat them to the hangar. They both arrive to late to stop Dooku but Obi-Wan feels entitled to be snide at Anakin over this for some reason. The pursue in a Separatist shuttle as the battle rages on. Obi-Wan and Anakin both gloat about a better gunner/pilot than the other is a pilot/gunner. If this is supposed to be witty banter it really isn't. They manage to shoot Dooku's ship but Obi-Wan misses a vulture droid and Anakin can't dodge it so both ships crash-land on the planet below.

Our dynamic duo wastes no time before shifting blame for the crash on the other and seriously what the hell? Theya re supoposed to have been friends for over a decade, brothers in spirit if not by blood so why do they act like this? Obi-wan only talks to belittle Anakin and half the time Anakin speaks it's to be put down by Obi-Wan and the other half it's to bite back. They don't sound playful either, they sound like the beginning of a buddy cop movie when the protagonists still hate each other's guts. Moving on, they find Dooku's ships and destroy his homing beacon. They proceed to track him to some caves and start looking for him, somehow not sensing his presence. Hee throws some rocks at them, knocking them out, steals Skywlaker's lghtsaber and leave, collapsing the entrance. Odd. Why not steal Kenobi's as well? Or better yet, kill them both? Dooku gets back to his ship only to find a bunch of Weequay digging stuff out. He hides their identity and their leader (Hondo Ohnaka) offers him a ride to the nearest settled planet. For a fee.

The Jedi come to and Obi-Wan start mocking Anakin for losing his lightsaber to a rock. Anakin shoots back when Obi-Wan's stops working because it was hit by a rock. As they look for Anakin's they are attacked by a creature called a gundark (they were mentionned back in AotC). Kenobi lets it play with Anakin (who deosn't appreciate) for a while before knocking it out with some more rocks. However the commotion has breached a pocket of toxic gas and another gundark is coming. The Jedi try open the entrance as fast as possible before collapsing and being rescued by Ahsoka, Rex and their troops. Thy then try to pretend they ahad the situation under control rather than be thankful. Pathetic. Ahsoka has none of it and let Skywalker know it. This amuses Obi-Wan. Urgh. He really is at his worst today.

Dooku and Ohnaka arrive at their destination in a flying saucer-looking ship. Huh. Guess eevery Sci-fi universe is obligated by law to have of these somewhere. However Dooku discovers that rather than a settlement this is a pirate base, oh and Ohnaka recognized him because of course he did. Dooku's claim of being a Sith Lord doesn't impress the pirates (would they even know what a sith Lord is? IT's been a millenium since that was common knowledge). Ohnaka pawned both of Dooku's lightsabers and inteds to take him hostage. Dooku is outnumbered and surrounded and since this isn't _Knights of the Old Republic_ he can't use Sith Lightning at 360°. He offers whatever amount of money Ohnaka wants. The pirate is coy enough to guess how the Separatists would answer to that (Bang! Bang! Boom!) and contacts the Republic instead. This matter is important enough to be brought to some of the Republic's bigwigs meaning: Masters Yoda and Windu, Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, Senator Amidala and ... _sigh_ ... Representative Binks. Palpatine at first refuse to deal with the pirate claiming that the holographic image of Dooku he showed them could be faked but Yoda identifies Dooku's saber and they decide to send Obi-Wan and Anakin to confirm his capture (alone and unarmed insists Ohnaka) before sending a Senator and Jar Jar to bring the payment (1, 000, 000 credits in spice (isn't that space drugs?)). Sending Jar Jar to the rescue is probably Sidious's way of sabotaging the mission. Cunning. Ohnaka says he doesn't want to get involved in the war something he should probably have thought of before capturing one of the two heads of state.

Anakenobi arrive at Ohnaka's base and things are quite tense as the JEdi don't trust the pirates (sensible) and as the pirates have Anakin's saber. They are shown Dooku's cell where he is chained into a contraption identical to the one he had Obi-Wan in back on Geonosis. He chooses to rub Anakin's recent capture in their face though and seems confident he will escape. However he does tell them to tread carefully around the pirates, less they end up in the same situation. Anakin thinks the pirates wouldn't burn bridges with the Republic as they just wna ttheir money. Dooku retorts that they are greedy, deceitful and above all else stupid. "It's a wonder you don't get along, then, says Obi-Wan. You have so much in common." Zing! The count is proven right, though, as while Anakin and Obi-Wan enjoy a weequay banquet (Anakin enjoys the dancers and Obi-Wan facepalms) to celebrate the deal, one pirate pours something in their drink. Both JEdi use Force assisted-sleight of hand to exchange their drinks with their respectiv neighbours. Anakin wonders how a bunch of pirate managed what they couldn't (not helped by Ohnaka pretending it happend thanks to an epic fight) and Obi-Wan concludes it must be a cosmic lesson in humility. They drink to that as their neighbours collapse.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Not much to say about that one, it' smostly set up for the next episode. First appartition of Hondo Ohnaka (who isn't even named in the episode) and manages to pull the Han Solo-ish lovable rogue act.
Why is Obi-Wan so terrible, though?

----------


## Jasdoif

> This feels like there's an episode missing.


One of the weird side effects of the non-linear-time episode orders, is that some episodes are a little *too* heavy with the _in medias res_ openings.




> As they look for Anakin's they are attacked by a creature called a gundark (they were mentionned back in AotC).


Name dropped in _Empire Strikes Back_, too.




> The count is proven right, though, as while Anakin and Obi-Wan enjoy a weequay banquet (Anakin enjoys the dancers and Obi-Wan facepalms) to celebrate the deal, one pirate pours something in their drink. Both JEdi use Force assisted-sleight of hand to exchange their drinks with their respectiv neighbours. Anakin wonders how a bunch of pirate managed what they couldn't (not helped by Ohnaka pretending it happend thanks to an epic fight) and Obi-Wan concludes it must be a cosmic lesson in humility. They drink to that as their neighbours collapse.


*Spoiler: Next Episode*
Show

And they get captured off-screen _anyway_!





> Why is Obi-Wan so terrible, though?


I believe this is the very beginning of a deliberate development of the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan; building between Attack of the Clones' Anakin never quite meets Obi-Wan's standards (and Obi-Wan probably feeling more at ease mocking Anakin, now that "respect your padawan" no longer applies as such) and Revenge of the Sith's "You were my brother!"

----------


## Sapphire Guard

Re Force Sensing People, I figure it works like your sense of hearing. What you physically can hear is different from what you do hear, depending on what you're concentrating on, and can be obscured by noise, distractions, or somebody being quiet on purpose. Too much sneaking up on people succeeds for it to be an always on unfailing radar.

Obi's trying to be stealthy so is masking. Although Anakin has no reason to hide, so this still doesn't quite work.

I'm fond of this arc. Like Grievous in his lair, Dooku gets a chance to show how dangerous he is, even alone, outnumbered, and on the back foot.

*Spoiler: Next Episode*
Show

 "I would kill you both right now except that I'd have to drag your bodies" is my favourite line in the entire series, because he's both completely serious and absolutely capable of it.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 1, Episode 12: The Gungan General*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

We open as Obi-Wan and Anakin wake up in a cell after having been drugged. Guess Hondo also was after their two drink-buddies for some unrelated business. What's more they discovered they've been shackled to Dooku who has been left out of his levitating restraints. They banter for a bit before agreeing to co-operate to escape.

Hondo talks to his leutenant, a weequay called Tuk, explaining that his mama taught him that one hostage was good, two was better and three is good business. Hondo, your mama clearly meant hostages on the same side. Capturing Dooku meant throwing your lot with the Republic wether you like it or not, capturing Jedis after that means that whoever wins you're going to lose, moron. He charges Tuk with meeting the Republic envoy and getting the spice because he won't do it himself for some reason. He isn't clear on wether he intends to ransom the Jedi to the Republic or the Separatists.

The Republic's crack team is made of a Gran Senator whose name I forgot with some experience in hostage crisis, Jar Jar and a handful of clones in a gunship. Jar is his usual self.

Dooku levitates a knife off a nearby fruit plates and telekinetically inserts it inside the cell's keyhole. Somehow this unlocks it. Somebody's been ripping Hondo off. Anakin and Obi-Wan snark at Dooku's expanse and riff him on his age*. He shuts them up by turning an armed guard into mince-meat bare handed but they stumble onto a bunch of pirates and are cut-off by some more weequay so they have to surrender. While this is happening Tuk was meeting with a one-eyed weequay and explains that he intends to betray Ohnaka. One-eye is to shoot down the Republic ship, kill everyone and take the spice then they'll leave together. This isn't half-bad a plan as the blame would invetibaly fall on Ohnaka whow would be too busy escaping ppusruit to deal with the traitors. One-Eye messes it up, though depsite Jar Jar messing with the gunner's seat (turns out you get ther via an internal elevator rather than climb on the outside). One-Eye flees as the gunship crashes killing pilot, gunner and the Gran Senator. To my horror I realize this means Jar Jar is in charge (the clones are a bit slower on the uptake). They notice that they landed near acidic geisers  and with their comms out (when are theses things not out?) they have to continue with the mission. After they've buried their dead. They also notice some hippo-like creatures frolicking near the geisers but moving away before they erupt.

Ohnaka scolds the Jedi (and ex-) for scorning his "hospitality", insists that this is just business and they can go back to being "friends" once it's done and leave them in the exact same cell with no added safety. Idiot.

One-Eye reports to Tuk who takes three landspeeders and a couple henchmen to finish the job leaving the other at base. They arrive at the crash site and manage to miss. Every. Single. Shot. They. Fire. Good news, battle droids! you are now officially the galaxy's second worst shots. Still Jar Jar decides to jump inside a geiser followed by the clones. The pirates conclude that they will die when it erupts and take the spice. Jar Jar explains that as long as the hippos don't move they are safe. Eh, basic competence, didn't expect that from him. He also thinks of riding the hippos to catch the pirates.
They do (guess that spice is heavier than it looks) and after a brief fight the pirates crash into erupting geiser and die except Tuk who runs away leaving the spice behind. The clones notice a power line (as in pylones connected by purple electrical arcs) and reason that they must lead to the base so they head there with the ransom.

Obi-Wan mind trick a guard into opening their cell and leaving. Anakin proposes they ditch the dead weight (Dooku). The Count retorts that the only reason he hasn't killed them yet is because he'd have to drag their lifeless corpses around. Point for Dooku.

Tuk meets with Ohnaka and lies, telling him that the Republic sent an army to free the hostages by force. Hondo is pissed and autorizes Tuk to take their tanks to confront the clones head on. As in, he thinks his little band can take on the Grand Army of the Republic with three shoddy tanks and win. Dumbass.

The Terrible trio meanwhile has reached a platform of some sort overseeing a courtyard, howevere they've been spotted again so they decide to jump to the opposite wall. Anakin catches it but Obi-Wan and Dooku don't. As they jumped the pirates were firing on them and one stray shots breaks the chain between Dooku and Obi-Wan (who was in the middle). As the Count falls, Obi-Wan catches him for some reason. As Skywalker struggles to climb up he pleads Obi-Wan to let the ennemy with telekinetic powers make a two meter fall but before he can Hondo and his gang surrounds them looking mighty pissed. Oh look,  a second escape attempt thwarted, I'm expecting the Third Doctor to show up any minute soon. Dooku is taken back to the cell while Ohnaka decides to electrically torture the Jedi to vent.

The clones and Binks spot the approaching tanks, they decide to let Jar Jar go to them as the clones hide, not to get rid of him but because "he is smarter than he looks" (he really is not). The pirates (who are suspiciously not lead by Tuk) reason that a Republic Representative must be worth good money and take him hostage. (Don't take the one paying you for your hostages hostage you brain-addled simpletons! You're just ensuring the next one come with guns rather money!) Jar Jar trips and fall on one of the tank's driver. It collides with a second tank who crashes into a power line. The last reamining tank is quickly overpowered by the clones (it doesn't have a roof).

The power failures stops Obi-Wan and Anakin's torture and release them from the torture device, they Force-accio their lightsabers and start fighting their way out (I guees Obi-Wan fixed his lightsaber off-screen in the last episode). They manage to take Hondo hostage (Ah!) and start slowly walking out. The power outage also allowed Dooku to Force open his cell and strangle the guard. He makes his way to the courtyard where Tuk and One-Eye are borading ashuttle. Turns out Tuk decided to call it quit and leave before his boss figured out what happened. Dooku Force choke him and forces him to shoot One-Eye before breaking his neck. Sith catharsis I guess (Sitharsis?). He steals the shuttle abandonning his lightsaber unless I missed a bit.
Anakin Obi-Wan and Hondo reach the other courstyard just as the tanks arrive. Hondo gloats but surprise! It's Jar Jar. Obi-Wan announces that they can trade the spice for Dooku if he's still prisoner just as they witness his shuttle taking off. As the good guys make their way towards the ship they initially came in. Hondo asks if his under arrest but Obi-Wan lets him go as he doesn't hold a grudge, after all what's a little torture between friends? Dooku might not be as forgiving, though, and Kenobi is sure to point out that he knows where Ohnaka lives. The obvious implication being that the Republic won't hurt the pirate but won't do anything to protect him either. We end as Ohnaka wordlessly contemplates the mess his greed put him in. All in all this was lousy day for everyone involved.

*You know he is older than Sidious. How long is human life expectancy in Star Wars? Because his theoritical stint as Dark Lord of the Sith wouldn't have lasted long if he had managed to Rule of Two his master.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Well that was a nothing-sandwich. Ohnaka was stupidly antagonistic, Jar jar, while a clear improvement over last time was still hard to bear and our theoretical heroes didn't amout to anything. The two failed escape attempt were obvious padding that would have been put to better use by giving us some character development between the three prisoners. If they had actually co-operated for an extended period of tiem for example.
I kept expecting the Separatists to show up, but I guess Sidious doesn't really believe in helping his apprentice out.


I already watched the next episode, I 'll post about it later.

----------


## Fyraltari

> One of the weird side effects of the non-linear-time episode orders, is that some episodes are a little *too* heavy with the _in medias res_ openings.


No the beginning is just weird. Have it just be "Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi infitrates a Droid frigate trying to capture the nefarious Count Dooku" and it would have worked just fine. The nonsensical trojan prisoner plot is what's confusing here.




> Name dropped in _Empire Strikes Back_, too.


I don't recall.




> I believe this is the very beginning of a deliberate development of the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan; building between Attack of the Clones' Anakin never quite meets Obi-Wan's standards (and Obi-Wan probably feeling more at ease mocking Anakin, now that "respect your padawan" no longer applies as such) and Revenge of the Sith's "You were my brother!"


Well if it is it could have been done better, because Obi-Wan's insult are completely gratuituous making him look less "exasperated teacher" and more "prick".




> Re Force Sensing People, I figure it works like your sense of hearing. What you physically can hear is different from what you do hear, depending on what you're concentrating on, and can be obscured by noise, distractions, or somebody being quiet on purpose. Too much sneaking up on people succeeds for it to be an always on unfailing radar.
> 
> Obi's trying to be stealthy so is masking. Although Anakin has no reason to hide, so this still doesn't quite work.


That makes some sense but it doesn't mesh with Vader sensing Obi-Wan on the death Star for example. Especially since Anakin knew Obi-Wan was coming.




> I'm fond of this arc. Like Grievous in his lair, Dooku gets a chance to show how dangerous he is, even alone, outnumbered, and on the back foot.


Does he though? The only real moment of competence he gets is his ambush i  the gundark cave and he immediately underscores it by going the Blofeld way of killing heroes. He only escapes because Ohnaka is a short-sighted fool, not through his own cunning.

This feels like a wasted opportunity to explore Dooku's character. With Grievous we got to see what his home was like, to metaphorically glance under the mask. What did we get for Dooku here? They could have had him talking about why he left the order for example.




> "I would kill you both right now except that I'd have to drag your bodies" is my favourite line in the entire series, because he's both completely serious and absolutely capable of it.


I very much doubt that. While he is a match for them in lightsaber combat (and even then he was running from them in the opener) he is more of a finess fighter while Anakin is a raw strength one which would give him a disadvantage in a fistfight. Especially since as they are shackled together, he can't get out of reach or isolate one of them.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Originally Posted by Jasdoif
> 
> 
> One of the weird side effects of the non-linear-time episode orders, is that some episodes are a little *too* heavy with the _in medias res_ openings.
> 
> 
> No the beginning is just weird.


I agree.  That's what makes it *too* heavy....I get the intent, they couldn't find an interesting way to do the setup so they glossed over it; but _this_ was too much to try that with.




> Originally Posted by Jasdoif
> 
> 
> Name dropped in _Empire Strikes Back_, too.
> 
> 
> I don't recall.


When Luke's recovering from being half (or more) frozen, after the bacta immersion, Han tells him he looks strong enough to "pull the ears off a gundark".




> Well if it is it could have been done better, because Obi-Wan's insult are completely gratuituous making him look less "exasperated teacher" and more "prick".


Again, I agree.




> That makes some sense but it doesn't mesh with Vader sensing Obi-Wan on the death Star for example. Especially since Anakin knew Obi-Wan was coming.


Ahsoka actually talks a little about how sensing people "works" later on, in season 3.

----------


## Fyraltari

You know, I think this episode was rewritten at some point. Both Dooku and the Jedi crash land on a planet but then have to cooperate while on another planet. I think this was originally just the one episode where they crash landed, co-operated against a bunch of random pirates and Dooku escaped at the end or something.

----------


## dancrilis

> *You know he is older than Sidious.


Why Dooku joined the Sith is one of the rare things in Star Wars that bothers me enough to bother me but not quite enough for me to look it up.

My head canon is that Palpatine knew Dooku when they were Senator and Jedi and they were good friends - Palpatine slowly turned him against the Jedi and the Republic, then revealed pieces of alternate philosophy ... and while Dooku was corrupted enough to become Tyranus and knew more about Sidious he still kindof considered them to be friends and didn't think he would be disposed of when the plan was completed.

After all the rule of two could be described as a method of hiding from the Jedi (rather then the alternative consolidating power) and with the Jedi gone it would not be needed.

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## Sapphire Guard

> That makes some sense but it doesn't mesh with Vader sensing Obi-Wan on the death Star for example. Especially since Anakin knew Obi-Wan was coming.


What's the problem there? Attempts at stealth can fail.




> I very much doubt that. While he is a match for them in lightsaber combat (and even then he was running from them in the opener) he is more of a finess fighter while Anakin is a raw strength one which would give him a disadvantage in a fistfight. Especially since as they are shackled together, he can't get out of reach or isolate one of them.


Fry them with lightning, which without sabres they can't block.

He was not running from them, he was running from the fleet that came after them. 

They could have had Dooku talk about things, but it's not a bad thing that they didn't, just a choice.

I dunno, here we had Dooku operate completely calmly while alone with a fleet looking for him, crashlanded alone on the planet.

He casually brushes off Obi and Anakin, is clever enough not to try to fight impossible odds given the trip to Florrum and escape later, and then easily escapes once Anakin and Obi are out of the way.

Now that you've refreshed my memory, though, a lot of stupid stuff happens here. It starts fairly promisingly, but then we get to weird stuff like taking hostage the people that are trying to pay you.

Hondo is sharp enough not to ransom Dooku to the Seps, but... then decides to randomly piss off the Republic for no reason?

Another puzzle... Why do Anakin and Obi try to escape? Why not stay in captivity to make sure Dooku is safely sold to the Republic (They don't know about Hondo's random hostage taking habits, right?). There's no advantage to breaking out.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 1, Episode 13: Jedi Crash*
*Spoiler: Recap*
Show


We open with a space battle between Republic and Separatists, the Republicans are lead by Aayla Secura and the Separatists by a tactical droid rather than Grievous. Deprived of the guidance of their best general, the droids are, of course, winning (not bad for these droids' first appearance). Aayla's ship is falling into the atmosphere as Anakin, Ahsoka and the Five-oh-First come to the rescue. The tactical droid sends in jetpack-equipped superbattledroids. They fly now. Anakin, Ahsoka and Rex are aboard a gunship but Anakin decides to just randomly jump of a flying droid. How bad is his adrelanine addiction that being in battle doesn't give him his fix anymore? The cockpit is hsot and Rex drags the pilot inside the ship. Of course that means they crash inside Aayla's cruiser. Aayla and her clone buddy, commander Bly, have deemed the ship a lost cause and are fighting their way through. The tactical droid decides to just blast the cruiser to bits (why not do that in the first place?) one B1 objects that there are hundreds of droid aboard but the boss doesn't care. Huh? The battle droids have such low self-preservation instincts I am surprised this one cares for his colleagues.

The Jedi and clone all meet and head up to a smaller ship Anakin had sent to the cruiser hangar to escape with. Given the size of the ship I am tempted to say that once again Anakin's objective was "save the Jedi, screw the clones) but frankly getting enough people to fill that hsip out would be optimistic. The intensified fires create a fireball that the jedi can't outrun so Anakin stays behind a blast door and use the Force to push on another blast door in order to cushion the explosion. It doesn't quite work as the second blast door blows up in his face but he managed to save the others. Ahsoka cut through the first door to get him aborad the ship. As he is badly wounded they get him to a droid doctor. Hopefully he doesn't diagnostic a loss of will to live. The ship tries to dock with the Anakin's destroyer, the _Resolute_ but the navigational computer was damaged and is going haywire. In fact it's just activated the hyperdrive. Yumaren is afraid they take the _Resolute_ with them (is that even possible? With how hyperdrive jumps have been portrayed lately I woudl have guess they'd tore the ship in twain.) They undock in the nick of time and jump to parts unknown.

As they fly through hyperspace they discover that they are headed towards the inside of a star. Clearly this is a problem. The solution is to cut all power to reboot the computer. That includes Anakin's life support which Ahsoka objects to but Aayla overrules her on the ground that the inside of a star isn't super healthy either. You know, seeing Ahsoka and Aayla's dress code make me sad Kit Fisto didn't lose his shirt in his episode like he did back in _Clone Wars_ so that the ladies could have some eye-candy too. Cutting all the power however also means cutting the artificial gravity (ever noticed how the artifical gravity systems never seem to fail no matter how much punishment a given ship takes? They're like the anti-comm systems) so everybody starts floating which forces Secura to use the Force to turn the pwoer back on. They emerge from hyperspace and juuuuust manange a literal sunbathing session. They immediately crash-land on a planet. I am starting to think that the Republic piloting schools spends more time teaching how to manage a crash than how to avoid one. I wonder if we'll ever get an arc where no single ship gets destroyed. 

Survivors of the crash include: Anakin (still unconsciuos), Aayla Secura, Ahsoka Tano, Rex, Bly and three random clones. The doctor is destroyed so they'll need someone else to help Anakin. Lucky htem they landed on a planet with a breatheable atmosphere, tolerable air pressure and 1g gravity. What are the odds. A clone found a wooden tablet showing a humanoid figure fighting a beast with a spear under a big tree. They conclude that there is intelligent life relatively nearby. Ahsoka proposes to stay with Anakin and Rex while the others go look but Secura insists only Rex stays because they'll be more efficient that way. I suppose she counts on Jedi sensitivity to find life? Ahsoka doesn't want to leave Anakin behind but Aayla tells her her duty as a Jedi is to the group. She reluctantly agrees and leave with them as Rex tries to cheer her up. Ahsoka points to the tablet and say the locals must live near giant trees. Secura congratulates her on adeduction skill. Can't quite tell if she's being sarcastic.

As they progress Ahsoka asks Aayla about a contradiction she's noticed in the Jedi Code: They are to be compassionate but also must not form any attachment. Aayla explains that she used to be in Ahsoka's shoe but she eventually realized she had to let her master go. Doesn't really answers the question, though. They are interrupted by some vulture-looking quadrupal-dinosaur. It manages to kill all three redshirts (wow look at that, a feral beast is more effective than Tuk and his gang) beofre being shot to death. The party reaches the giant tree but there are no sign of intelligent life nearby. The reason quickly becomes obvious as giant acorn-looking pods fall on them. Aayla notices tracks and concludes someone is intelligent enough to use the pods and so they elect to follow said tracks. I mean that might just be animals making provision for winter but it's not like they have any better idea, soooo...

Meanwhile anakin comes to as he senses danger and warns Rex soon enough that he can scare away a vulturausorus with his blaster. Anakin immediately collapse again, though. Aayla, Ahsoka and Bly have reached a settlement made out of the pods and populated by diminutive monkey-like alien. fortuneately they speak Basic, which makes sense since they ar enot natives to this planet after all but colonists who came there to hide from the Clone War. The leader denies the Jedi the title of "peacekeeper" because they carry and use weapons. He wants nothing to do with them and tells them to begone. However when Ahsoka is reduced to beggin gfor some medical supplies for their wounded he relents and sends their only healer, his own son Wag'tun, to tend to Anakin. He insists that a Jedi stays at the village as insurance that their healer is returned safe and sound. Yeah, hostage don't work as well when you preface it with "I do not believe in the use of violence in any situation" but whatever it's a suprefluous precaution anyway. Ahsoka volunteers to stay with Bly but the elder refuses that the clone stays in his village (ostensibly because clones don't even pretend not ot be soldiers). Aayla says ahsoka should come back with Bly and she agrees.

Back at the crash, the vulturausori have come back in greater numbers and Anakin insists he can fight. Rex and him kill one beast before Ahsoka, Bly and Wag'tun arrive, they drive a second one away and Wag'tun non-lethally subdues the last one with help from Ahsoka and Rex (though he has to plead for its life beforehand). Also Wag'tu runs by rolling like a droideka and that is just adorable.
While this is happening, Secura anjoys osme liquid food with the village elder and they have a debate on the necessity of violence. Aayla thinks that freedom and justice desrve to be fought for which the elder agrees to but he doesn't accept that they deserve killing for. Aayla conters by asking wether he would take one life to save a thousand and that the Jedi did not start the war. That's highly debatable Aayla, you know very well the Jedi attacked Geonosis, and by extensiont he Separatists, first. That wasn't unprovocked of course since they were rescuing their comrandes but Obi-Wan was illegally trespassing and spying. It would help to know if the war is situated more in Separatist or Republican space anyway. Of course the leder doesn't know the details so his argument is that it doesn't matter who started the conflict and who wants to end it, it takes two to tango.

Anakin and co arrives safely at the village and the children gather around the wounded spooking him as he wakes up again. Awg'tun ^repares some healing oils from the pod and tends to his patient. Aayla and Ahsoka talk while watching the sunset. Ahsoka says Aayla was right, if she hadn't come they wouldn't ahve found the village. Huh? Would no-one else have thought of looking for the trees on the tablet, really? Aayla tells her that even though their situation is better than before they are still stuck on this remote planet (doe the colonosist not ahve the ship they came in anymore? Does it not have communication equipment), but Ahsoka is sure Yularen is looking for them. Well, it shouldn't take long for hil to find them then, after all they could only be ANYWHERE IN THE ENTIRE GALAXY! (I kid, we've seen Yularen order a clone to plot all possible courses based on their jump but still Space (and planets) are so big they really shouldn't count on him findin them). I wonder where Bly and Rex are spending the night if they're not allowed in the village. Maybe the thought to take Anakin's makeshift tent with them.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

There's not much to say on that one. It shows that Ahsoka is really attached to Anakin and can let that cloud her judgement (even if that's a bit clumsy). The bit about non-violence feels like set-up for the next episode where Separatists inevitably show up to conquer the colonists and exploit them for **** and giggles.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Ahsoka says Aayla was right, if she hadn't come they wouldn't ahve found the village. Huh? Would no-one else have thought of looking for the trees on the tablet, really?


Huh.  It just occurred to me that Ahsoka _is_ probably the only one from a world where trees are anywhere _near_ common; she might well have been the only one who'd recognize the markings on the tablet _as_ a tree so quickly.

----------


## dancrilis

> Huh.  It just occurred to me that Ahsoka _is_ probably the only one from a world where trees are anywhere _near_ common; she might well have been the only one who'd recognize the markings on the tablet _as_ a tree so quickly.


I am now imagining Anakin's and Luke's reaction to seeing a tree for the first time and drawing their own conclusions.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Why Dooku joined the Sith is one of the rare things in Star Wars that bothers me enough to bother me but not quite enough for me to look it up.
> 
> My head canon is that Palpatine knew Dooku when they were Senator and Jedi and they were good friends - Palpatine slowly turned him against the Jedi and the Republic, then revealed pieces of alternate philosophy ... and while Dooku was corrupted enough to become Tyranus and knew more about Sidious he still kindof considered them to be friends and didn't think he would be disposed of when the plan was completed.
> 
> After all the rule of two could be described as a method of hiding from the Jedi (rather then the alternative consolidating power) and with the Jedi gone it would not be needed.


I think it's supposed to be mostly frustration with the Jedi's inability to solve major problems like the slave trade growing into resentment. I really feel Dooku was utterly wasted as a concept (and an actor) in the Prequels and I hoped that the show woudl dive more into his character but I guess not.



> What's the problem there? Attempts at stealth can fail.


Look if Vader, who hasn't seen Obi-Wan in twenty years, can recognize him from half a space station away when he's trying to be stealthy without knowing he was anywhere near this part of space then Anakin, who has spent more than a decade in his company aand knows he is coming, should be able to recognize him from a doorframe away even when he' strying to be stealthy.






> Fry them with lightning, which without sabres they can't block.


Good point.




> He was not running from them, he was running from the fleet that came after them.


Honestlly it seemed less like a fleet and more like a single destroyer.




> They could have had Dooku talk about things, but it's not a bad thing that they didn't, just a choice.


I like my antagonist with a personnality, myslef, especially when they're meant a s afoil to one of the hero and to have a personnal connection with them (Yoda's pupil, Qui Gon's teacher, this is important.)




> I dunno, here we had Dooku operate completely calmly while alone with a fleet looking for him, crashlanded alone on the planet.
> 
> He casually brushes off Obi and Anakin, is clever enough not to try to fight impossible odds given the trip to Florrum and escape later, and then easily escapes once Anakin and Obi are out of the way.


There's no fleet coming after him, just two Jedi. And the escape he initiated fails. His actual escape is due to Jar Jar knocking out the power grid and Obi-Wan and Anakin distracting the pirates. He didn't escape becaue he was competent he escaped because his jailers were idiots who attacked their customers. He even lost his lightsaber!




> Now that you've refreshed my memory, though, a lot of stupid stuff happens here. It starts fairly promisingly, but then we get to weird stuff like taking hostage the people that are trying to pay you.
> 
> Hondo is sharp enough not to ransom Dooku to the Seps, but... then decides to randomly piss off the Republic for no reason?
> 
> Another puzzle... Why do Anakin and Obi try to escape? Why not stay in captivity to make sure Dooku is safely sold to the Republic (They don't know about Hondo's random hostage taking habits, right?). There's no advantage to breaking out.


They try to escape because Hondo has taken them prisoners and intends to ransom them to the Republic (which would look bad) or the Separatist (which would be worse) and because he has proven untrustworthy, he might have been outbid by the Seaparatists or the Hutts or whoever. Besides, if they can escape and join the Republic envoy then they can deliver Dooku to the Republic and keep the taxpayers' money where it belongs rather than abetting a criminal.

----------


## Jasdoif

> I am now imagining Anakin's and Luke's reaction to seeing a tree for the first time and drawing their own conclusions.


Maybe _that's_ why the second Death Star's shield generator was built on a *forest* moon!




> I really feel Dooku was utterly wasted as a concept (and an actor) in the Prequels and I hoped that the show woudl dive more into his character but I guess not.


The series may not rise to the level of "dive", but there's a few episodes later on with a better focus on Dooku.  Let the series figure out what exactly it's doing with its _protagonists_ first  :Small Tongue:

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## Fyraltari

> I am now imagining Anakin's and Luke's reaction to seeing a tree for the first time and drawing their own conclusions.


Anakin: Wait, you mean, these things stop sand from being formed? *starry eyes* I love them...



> The series may not rise to the level of "dive", but there's a few episodes later on with a better focus on Dooku.  Let the series figure out what exactly it's doing with its _protagonists_ first


... Fair.

----------


## Peelee

> Fry them with lightning, which without sabres they can't block.


*Spoiler: The movies disagree*
Show




ETA: Also, Fyr, does your Disney + app or whatever your using to watch it not give episode titles? Mine does.
*Spoiler: Like so*
Show




I may be watching these around the same time you are to refresh my memories on them. And it's fun.

----------


## Fyraltari

> *Spoiler: The movies disagree*
> Show


Anakin and Obi-Wan can't do that, though.




> ETA: Also, Fyr, does your Disney + app or whatever your using to watch it not give episode titles? Mine does.
> *Spoiler: Like so*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I may be watching these around the same time you are to refresh my memories on them. And it's fun.


Nope. Just numbers. Then again, if the makers wanted me to know the episode titles they should have put them in the credits.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 1, Episode 14: Defenders of Peace*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

It's morning on the village, Bly (who apparently was allowed to spend the night there) is helping some villagers out but Rex soon spots an approaching Separatist transport ship. The village elder, whose name is Tai'waka orders the Republicans to begone before they are dragged into the conflict. Good thing Anakin's pretty much healed. The Jedi tell him that the Separatists won't respect his neutrality but he says they haven't done anything to provoke them and they don't intend to. Anakin, of all people, is the voice of reason and says they won't drag bystanders into a war that isn't there. Tai'waka goes to greet the newcomers. Their leader is a fatter-than-usual neimoidian named "General Lukgrub" and an anaqualish technician. Lukgrub strolls in like he owns the place because he has decided he does and he's got the guns so he makes the rules. The droids start "ransakcing" the place which shocks Wag'tu (who was helping the Republicans out). The droid report no trace of republic personnel or materiel and the Separatists leave. Wag'tu is furious at his father for submitting to a petty tyrant like that but Tai'waka is content with the fact that no-one got hurt. Wag'tu asks another lurmin (that's their species' name apparently) to keep an eye on the Jedi and help them if needed.

As the Republicans are contemplating their next move (looks like the only ships around are the Separatists'). Rex is puzzled by the lurmin's commitment to non-violence, which makes sense since he was red and raised with war as his one and only purpose in life. He concludes they must have no pride. Ahsoka thinks they don't have courage. Secura points out that sticking to one's beliefs in tough situations requieres a lot of courage and that Tano, as a Jedi, should know that. They are interrupted by a probe droid (huh, did the Empire nick that design off the Separatists? Doesn't seem to be their _modus operandi_). They hunt it down and Aayla manages to cut its route before cutting it. It was headed for the giant trees so the republicans climb them up to try to see where it was going. In hindsight they could have done that last time to spot a settlement.

The Separatists have erected a small roofless fortress where they parked their troop carrier and a shuttle. Guess they went to the _Starcraft_ school of architecture. the carrier unloads three tanks one of which is carried a weird yellow gun. Anakin sends Rex and Bly to investigate closer while they watches from a distance; seems pointless with how far their binoculars can see. The general makes a speech about how his new weapon that destroys organic life but not machines will bring victory to the Separatists. The droids execute their cheering subroutine. The general orders two "volunteers" (the only two who didn't step back when he asked. So the B1 do have a survival instinct) to go stand in the kill zone for their first test. Which is almost on top of the two very-much organic clones. It's weird that a weapon designer became a general but maybe he's just stealing the aqualish's credit, I don't know. The weapon fires and unleashes some kind of fast expending fire. Rex escapes with his grappling gun but Aayla has to sweep in to rescue Bly with a vine. The droids are fine. Dooku, who was watching through an hologram congratulates the general and orders him to test on people next. That seems somewhat superfluous but okay. The general explains that he had selected the planet with that in mind and that he knows a village that will make a perfect testing ground. he immediately leaves with the tanks and three squad (150-odd droids). The Republicans realize he is head for the village and put two and two together. They decide to infiltrate the ennemy base and steal the shuttle to warn the villagers. Ahsoka says that Tai'waka has made it clear he doesn't want their help but Anakin answers that there's a difference between bringin innocents to a fight and letting them be slaughtered. (Welll duh!) Wag'tu's friend pulls a movie!Gandalf and tell a butterfly to tell Wag'tu that the Sepratists are coming back.

Anakin distracts some B by moving a rock with the Force (they are dumb enough to try to follow a rock moving under his own power rather than raising the alarm) while the Ahsoka and Secura climb the wall and take out some droids inside (we get to see Ahsoka's shadow and her lightsaber projects one too. That doesn't feel right.) They let the boys and they quickly take out what's left of the "garrison" before leaving with the shuttle and a couple shield generators). Cut to next morning, Wag'tu is arguing with his father who thinks the Separatists didn't harm them last time so they won't next time. David hume didn't die for this. Anyway, the Republican gets there and tell them about the new weapon. Tai'waka says his people who kill to save their lives. Anakin, still the most reasonnable here (starting to think he hit his head harder than it seemed) says they should run then. Tai'waka refuses to abandon their homes. Err, if you came here because of the war you wan't have been here for more than six months, dude this isn't your ancestral lands, just scatter, you knuckle-head. The conversation goes nowhere until Anakin says that they will respect the lurmins' beliefs but they too must respect theirs and so they will fight for the villagers wether they agree or not. Tai'waka storms off while Wag'tu tells Ahsoka he and some of the young agree with the Jedi but their society is very tradictionnal and they can't go against their code like that.

The General and his group arrive near the village. He thinks the usccess of his weapon will net him a promotion (to what field-marshal?), even his droid commander seems confused at the idea. They spot the Jedi monting an impromptu barricade faster than Parisians when the price of bread goes up by 0.005%. Welp time for test two. As the misslie bears down on the village the clones raise the shields which manage to stop the blast. Pissed, the General sends one of hs three squads to attack (I guess he's keeping the other two for a paintball match later or something). Our five heroes stand in front of the shields and start fighting. I feel like the clones really should only stick the end of their guns out of the shield for cover but that wouldn't matter sinc ethe droids are terrible anyway. When the squad is inevitably destroyed. The general throws all he has at them (while still satying in the back with the tanks). The Republicans are forced to retreat inside the shield as the droids enter the village. Anakain goes to destroy the special weapon before it can fire again. The droids shoot down the shield generators and are ordered to leave no survivor (I guess they dpn't need to be alive for the test). Wag'tu has had enough and takes a band of like-minded lurmin to battle. They use a rope to trip the droids while ahsoka beheads them. Anakin destroys the tanks and take the general prisoner by levitating him as he tried to run away. The general lament his lost promotion as the last droids are destroyed.

Wag'tu thanks the Republicans for their help and Tai'waka reluctantly does so as well although, he ponders what the cost of this battle will be for his people as the dagger-shaped destroyers of the Republic appear in the sky.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

The theme of this episode is abviously when (if ever) violence becomes justified. Since I don't want to get this thread locked, I'll just say that the episode tries to give a fair assessment of both sides of the argument while still leaning on the "violence is sometimes necessary" side especially since the opening quote/saying-thingie is "when surrounded by war one must choose a camp". Though this attempt at fairness kind of fall flat in its face since Tai'waka refuses to consider _any_ solution other than resolving to die. They really could have just run away for example.

----------


## dancrilis

> Anakin, still the most reasonnable here ...


Ignoring everything else about the show - I think its greatest achievement is that making Anakin Skywalker a fairly reasonable fairly likeable guy (even if it feels a bit out of sync with the movies).

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## Peelee

> Anakin and Obi-Wan can't do that, though.


[citation needed] :Small Tongue: 

For reals, though, I am forced to assume that Dooku couldn't lightning in his cuffs, since if he could, he could have simply done it several times when they were captured/recaptured during the escapes.



> Ignoring everything else about the show - I think its greatest achievement is that making Anakin Skywalker a fairly reasonable fairly likeable guy (even if it feels a bit out of sync with the movies).


Conversely, the show's worst failure is to show _anything_ that would justify Kenobi's lines "you were my brother!" and "he was a good friend" regarding Anakin.

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## dancrilis

> Conversely, the show's worst failure is to show _anything_ that would justify Kenobi's lines "you were my brother!" and "he was a good friend" regarding Anakin.


I don't about 'brother' but Anakin does seem to a good friend to the people who he is friends with (in the show), I don't remember any particular poor friendship actions from him conversely if one is friends with him he seems to stand by them (even against staunch opposition).

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## Peelee

> I don't about 'brother' but Anakin does seem to a good friend to the people who he is friends with (in the show), I don't remember any particular poor friendship actions from him conversely if one is friends with him he seems to stand by them (even against staunch opposition).


He seems to be a good friend in the sense that he and Kenobi trade jobs at each other, and not much else. They tolerate each other. They don't blow up at each other. That's about it. It's like how people can be close friends, so they mock or insult the other playfully; there's a whole lot more to the friendship than that, and if that's all we see, then it doesn't look all that great.

----------


## hamishspence

I thought the show did a good job of making their jabs seem _affectionate._

*Spoiler: Season 4*
Show

And when Obi-Wan is believed dead, having gone undercover, Anakin is _very upset_ - and also when the truth is revealed, upset at how he wasn't  trusted with it.

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## dancrilis

> He seems to be a good friend in the sense that he and Kenobi trade jobs at each other, and not much else. They tolerate each other. They don't blow up at each other. That's about it. It's like how people can be close friends, so they mock or insult the other playfully; there's a whole lot more to the friendship than that, and if that's all we see, then it doesn't look all that great.


Been a while since I watched A New Hope or The Clone Wars I thought they came across as if they got along.

But lets assume your memory is better then mine - in that case did Obi-Wan say 'he was a good friend' or did he say 'we were good friends' - because of the former then it would only mean that Anakin was a good friend to people who he was friends with and then what Obi-Wan would have said would be technically true (and you wouldn't need to get into certain point of view territory), unless you are saying he was not a good friend to anyone?

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## Jasdoif

If I'm tracking the episodes right, that means my almost-favorite episode of the first season is next.




> I thought the show did a good job of making their jabs seem _affectionate._
> 
> *Spoiler: Season 4*
> Show
> 
> And when Obi-Wan is believed dead, having gone undercover, Anakin is _very upset_ - and also when the truth is revealed, upset at how he wasn't  trusted with it.


Agreed.  Even outside that blatant example, their voice actors were (eventually) really good with the subtle tone of playful sarcasm.

----------


## Peelee

> I thought the show did a good job of making their jabs seem _affectionate._
> 
> *Spoiler: Season 4*
> Show
> 
> And when Obi-Wan is believed dead, having gone undercover, Anakin is _very upset_ - and also when the truth is revealed, upset at how he wasn't  trusted with it.





> If I'm tracking the episodes right, that means my almost-favorite episode of the first season is next.
> 
> Agreed.  Even outside that blatant, their voice actors were (eventually) really good with the subtle tone of playful sarcasm.


Eh, when almost all we see is playful sarcasm, I get the impression it's more familiar-coworkers or longtime-acquaintances.
*Spoiler: Season 4*
Show

And given that before the Clone Wars, Anakin was already forming a massive superiority complex, I saw his reaction to not being trusted with it as an extension of that. And that his initial reaction at Kenobi's death would have been largely similar to, say, Yoda's - the reaction as given more because the audience connection with the "dead" Jedi was strong, not because Anakin's in particular was.
Really, his whole character was handled remarkably poorly from the very beginning, so it's already a steep uphill climb, and I understand my objections there may not be shared by others.



> Been a while since I watched A New Hope or The Clone Wars I thought they came across as if they got along.
> 
> But lets assume your memory is better then mine - in that case did Obi-Wan say 'he was a good friend' or did he say 'we were good friends' - because of the former then it would only mean that Anakin was a good friend to people who he was friends with and then what Obi-Wan would have said would be technically true (and you wouldn't need to get into certain point of view territory), unless you are saying he was not a good friend to anyone?


He was the best starpilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior... And he was a good friend.

And I hate the "certain point of view" stuff thrown out for practically everything he said. Right off the bat, it was a retcon, which I wasn't too thrilled with, and then poor decisions to make every word he ever uttered to Luke a pack of lies sold under the veil of "a certain point of view"... no. Just no. Dude was reminiscing there, he was fondly remembering the past, he was for the briefest of moments reunited with the ghost of his friend. The fact that Lucas couldn't get over his own ego and went hog wild on rampant inconsistencies in the prequels does not let the "certain point of view" flag fly in my sails.

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## Fyraltari

> If I'm tracking the episodes right, that means my almost-favorite episode of the first season is next.


Have I done your actual favorite yet or is it coming up?

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## dancrilis

> And I hate the "certain point of view" stuff ...


I hear you, Star Wars: A New Hope is an incredible movie, at times I wonder if every other movie Star Wars movie is merely trying to tear it down.

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## Peelee

> I hear you, Star Wars: A New Hope is an incredible movie, at times I wonder if every other movie Star Wars movie is merely trying to tear it down.


There's very few movies I consider perfect or near-perfect. Original Star Wars is one of them. Lightning in a bottle, I tells ya.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Really, his whole character was handled remarkably poorly from the very beginning, so it's already a steep uphill climb, and I understand my objections there may not be shared by others.


*Spoiler: Later in the series stuff*
Show

What I think the series does surprisingly well is how it (eventually) gets to what separates Obi-Wan and Anakin....Obi-Wan nearly always does what the High Council requests, rather than what Anakin (and Ahsoka) think are the right thing to do.  Anakin's strong reaction to Obi-Wan keeping _him_ in the dark, personally, for the good of the _Council_, kicks things off.  So when Obi-Wan does this again, with the whole "Knight appointed to the High Council" thing....

Meanwhile, Obi-Wan actually told Qui-Gon, all the way back in _Phantom Menace_, his belief that Qui-Gon would be *on* the High Council if he didn't defy them so much.  Obi-Wan could well have been confusing his feelings about Qui-Gon for his feelings about Anakin.


Not that this is strictly what the series is trying to accomplish, I don't think; but I like to note how much better the series is at accomplishing the things the surrounding movies kind of just wanted you to accept at face value.




> Have I done your actual favorite yet or is it coming up?


You're about five episodes away from my actual favorite from the first season.

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## Peelee

> Not that this is strictly what the series is trying to accomplish, I don't think; but I like to note how much better the series is at accomplishing the things the surrounding movies kind of just wanted you to accept at face value.


Not a terribly high bar, though, to be fair. I dunno, I just see another animated show made around the same time, aimed specifically at younger audiences, dealing with morality and war, and just wish that _The Clone Wars_ was made as well as _Avatar: The Last Airbender_.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Not a terribly high bar, though, to be fair. I dunno, I just see another animated show made around the same time, aimed specifically at younger audiences, dealing with morality and war, and just wish that _The Clone Wars_ was made as well as _Avatar: The Last Airbender_.


Which is somewhere on my list of shows to watch.

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## Peelee

> Which is somewhere on my list of shows to watch.


Oh man, cannot recommend highly enough.

----------


## dancrilis

> Which is somewhere on my list of shows to watch.


There is a live action movie also ... stay far far away from it is my recommendation.




> Oh man, cannot recommend highly enough.


I don't know - Book 1 was alright, Book 2 was good (maybe even very good) and Book 3 kindof seemed a bit hit and miss if I remember correctly (some good bits to be fair but a lot of of meh).

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## Peelee

> I don't know - Book 1 was alright, Book 2 was good (maybe even very good) and Book 3 kindof seemed a bit hit and miss if I remember correctly (some good bits to be fair but a lot of of meh).


*Spoiler*
Show

Book 1 had Uncle Iroh. Book 2 had Uncle Iroh. Book 3 had Uncle Iroh.

I dunno, I'd classify all three as fantastic. :Small Tongue:

----------


## Fyraltari

> Oh man, cannot recommend highly enough.


Yeah, I know...



> There is a live action movie also ... stay far far away from it is my recommendation.


Yeah, I know...

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 1, Episode 15: Trespass* a.k.a. Jasdoif's second favourite of the season.

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

A remote Republic base on the frozen world of Orto Plutonia has ceased communication and Obi-Wan, Anakin and Rex have been sent to investigate with an array (three dropships worth) of clones. Also present are representative from the planet's moon (called Pantora), Supreme Chairman Cho and Senator Chuchi (plus two bodyguards). C3-PO and R2 are also there, why not? Turns out the planet is uninhabited meaning the Pantorian as the only intelligent species of the system claim it as their own. Kenobi thinks this is for the Senate to decide but Senator Chichu meekly points out that the Senate already granted the system to the Pantorians. Makes sense to me. If we ever meet extra-stellar lifeforms I'd hope they'll recognize that the solar system is ours to exploit ruin **** up use. Chairman Cho seems to be under the impression that everybody around here answers to his authority. OBi-Wan and Anakin are freezing their butts off and joking about how they're in the tropics and how this isn't Tattoine at all. So is this post-character development or are just in a good mood today? Rex is wearing some proto snow-trooper armor which is nice but makes it look like he's got no chin which makes it hard to take him seriously in this.

The fun soon stops when the crew discovers a row of clone helmets on spears on the entrance and a lot more dead clones inside. None of which are missing their helmets which goes completely unadress but makes me wonders if their ennemis own an ewok recipe book. Chairman Cho is adamant the Separatists are responsible and wipes Senator Chuchi argument that there are no droid remains anywhere nor any blaster marks on the casualties by stating that he's lead their people since before she was a child. She adresses him as "your majesty" and she is a senator despite looking and acting like a teenager which is reminding me of Naboo's nonsensical political traditions of electing a teenage queen. Obi-Wan notices that the base computer were left untouched which is unlike the Separatists. Chichu hopes that if the Separatists aren't involved then maybe a peaceful solution can be reached. Cho argues that even if the Separatists aren't behind this then whoever is is clearly a brutal agressor who must be put down and that he is ready to die for his people so it is time chichu asks herself if she is brave enough to do the same. Rex reports that the scouts have spotted a Separatist base not far from there. Must have made for some awkward "meet the neighbours." Anakin and Obi-Wan takes a little group and go investigate while the rest stays behind to protect the Pantorians.

The Separatist base is in similar condition with droid heads stuck to spears and their headless bodies frozen in place. And now I'm imagining the attackers propping them up and having fun just like with huge legos. Anakin spots a big fottprint and Obi-Wan orders a cast to be made out of it. Nothing comes of this but I guess it was left by one of the mounts we'll see soon. Obi-Wan finds a recording (that only plays after Skywalker whacks the projector) of the droid commander calling for reinforcement before being tackled by a polar bear-like alien. Guess no Separatists ever got the message. They keep on exploring and stumble on a village. (Did they follow tracks? I don't think so.) turns-out the planet is inhabited by a pre-smelting civilisation of furry, four-eyed humanoids. I swear I've seen these guys before in _Star Wars_ but I'm not sure where. The cantina? They can't talk Basic, though, Skywalker laments that they could use 3PO right now as what looks like a leader (you can tell by the hat, it's an universal law that the fancier the hat the more importance you think you have) approaches and raises a spear menacingly before sticking it in the snow and inviting them in their hut. Kenobi hopes that the aliens are smarter than the Jedi and will figure a way to communicate. Obi-Wan tries the talk-slowly-to-foreigner technique. It works as well as you'd expect. Fortunately, an alien hands Anakin a drawing of a battle droid before Kenobi tries shouting at them and Skywalker draws a (crude) human and alien holding hands to try to convey the meaning of "peace". Fortunetaly this is not how these aliens challenge each other to an honor duel so that works. The leader hugs Obi-Wan as they leave.

The Jedi are surprised by a snostorm on the way back to the Republic base but make it without too much trouble. They inform everybody that the planet is inhabited which sends Chairman Cho into a furor. It's never adressed but his flurry of arguments as to why "savages" don't count as people makes me suspect he already knew about their presence. Senator Chichu didn't but he shouts her into submission. The Jedi explains that the natives are called Thals. (Ah! so that's why they disappeared from _Doctro Who_! Clever the onmy safe distance from a Dalek _is_ inanother franchise altogether. Ahh, who am I kidding, I'm sure there's a _Doctor who_/_tar Wars_ crossover somewhere.) Their leader's name is Tay Senn and they've agreed to a meeting. Turns out the droid attacked them first and they mistook the clones for allies of the Separatists (since they're all foreign-devils and all that). Now watching this I assumed that the Jedi where making stuff up to try to calm down the Chairman and gain time for a Senatorial commission to recognize the natives' right to the planet, but nope, this is all accurate. How the hell did they communicate _that_ through drawings?

Anyhoo, every named character, the two bodyguards and some clone goes to the meeting. Chairman Cho, who overruled Senator Chichu who had volunteered as their people's spokesperson wants the clones to open fire on the natives as soon as they show up but Kenobi points out that he's not in command and Skywalker that some thals have been following them for a while. More pop out of the snow and Tay Senn shows up.It starts well enough with Tay Senn welcoming everyone to his planet and expressing he intends to be a good neighbour but on the condition the aliens leave his planet to his people. How does this guy even have a concept of planet? Chairman Cho uses 3PO as a translator to hurl some abuse at the natives befoe declaring war before storming off. The only alien left is Senator Chichu who is dejected by the whole thing. The Jedi ask her if she can't appeal to the senate so that they'd get authority to intervene. She can't without Cho's authorization... or the Speaker of the Assembly's. So this is a constitutional monarchy, then?

As they get up to base they meet Cho gearing up for war. Well trying to at any rate. tHere's a running gag of Cho ordering Rex around and Rex not contradicting but also not obeying until a Jedi Gives him the same order which Cho never seems to notice. This time though Rex asks Anakin what he's supposed to do. Anakin tells him to protect Cho if needed but not go any farther Probaly because as much a she doesn't want to start a war, losing a head of state would look bad on the after-mission debrief. the Chairman seems fixated on launching an immediate attack even though the snowstorm means their dropship are inoperable and there are only less than twenty speeders. Naturally someone with such a keen tactical mind falls into the most obvious trap this side of the Maw cluster and the thals starts slaughtering the clones and Cho's bodyguards. Cho even gets a spear to the back but when Rex picks him up he has no wound nor bleeding visible. Woops. Chichu managed to get in touch with the Pantorian Assembly and they've decided that Cho's actions were out of line, she's given full plenipotential authority to salvage the situation. Holy cow a romm full of politicians who managed to decide to do the right thing immediately and with little incentive to do so!? These *are* inhuman creatures! As the storm has died down, the Jedi and everybody else take the gunships and while en route Chichu confides to Kenobi that she hopes _he_ would managed to make the peace. Kenobi answers that this war is between the thals and the Pantorians and so it has to be her who speaks for her onw people. I get what they're going for but isn't being an in-betweener in theses kind of conflicts the entire reason the Republic funded your huge-ass temple for a thousand years, Obi-Wan?

Rex, five clones and the useless load have managed to flee to some natural ice bridge but it collapses under two speeders (how does antigravity even work?). Rex quickly pulls up an impromptu defense with the speeders and starts gunning down the approaching outriders. Turns out that while stone beats laser when stone has literally all the circumstance adva,tage (terrain, surprise, elevation, surrounding the ennemy, numbers, etc.) and cavalry charge against ennmies with automatic firearms on a flat terrain isn't exactly ideal. Tay Senn has a huge numerical advantage and it loo,s like the clones can't gun down all of his warriors before being turned into Kamino-special kebabs but they can gun down _a lot_ of his warriors. And they do. The battle is interrupted by the timely arrival of the gunships which prompts Tay Senn to halt his charge but not to run away just yet.

Chairman Cho is elated to see Senator Chichu and orders her, as his dying command, to avenge his fall and wipe out the natives. She cooly tell him he has been deposed and she intends to make peace. He recoils and shock and re-affirm his commitment to dying for his nation. Which he promptly does. Convienient. I am compelled to quote the movie _Rrrrrr_ when they bury the guy who took himself hostage and then executed his hostage when his demands weren't met "He said he'd do it and so he did. He was a great man. -He was great dumbass is what you mean, yeah." Chichu takes Cho's big Hat of Leadership (see? I told you it was universal) and a thrown spear before ordering 3PO to come with. Tai Senn meets her halfway across the battlefield and she raises the spear up high saying it is a hard thing to die for one's people, but living for them is harder and she drives the spear into the ground before placing the Cho's hat on it. She says she chooses to live and asks Tai Senn what he chooses. Tay Senn raises his spear menacingly growls something... and drives it into the snow next to Chichu's ans 3PO exclaims that he choses to live.
*Spoiler: Hmmm*
Show



The outriders all make their mounts kneel. Glad we solved racism forever guys!
I kid but Obi-Wan quickly makes Chichu promises to do something both harder and more important than making a peace. Keeping a peace. And to such a peace that it will be held up as example throughout the galaxy. She clearly understands the difficulty of the task but promises anyway.
Our last shot of the episode is of the two crossed spears in the snow with Cho's hat flapping in the wind.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show


Allright! This was certainly better than the last few episodes. Anakin and Obi-Wan were united in their opposition to Cho but even then they really felt more like people who enjoy each other's company than they did when running after Dooku. On the same wavelength if you see what I mean. The main conflict is okay. I mean it had all the subtlety of an anvil launched out of a catapult, but this message (war bad) doesn't really require subtlety. And it nicely complements last episode's message of pure non-violence bad. However this being a kid show really shows here. The villain is motivated by pure prejudice and everybody else around him disagrees. I think they could have explained that the planet held some kind of resource that was important to Pontara's economy which would have neatly explained Cho's insistance that the planet remained his people's property as well as the Republic and Separatist interest for the planet (what where they even doing there, anyway?). Prejucide is irrational but it often is self-serving (if short-sighted) as well. I do wonder about the thals, though. They've just been thrown into a larger world they have no idea how to navigate while a major war rages on of all times. Their abysmal technological difference with galactic civilisation means that keeping their culture distinct will be one hell of an uphill battle while they are pretty much at the mercy of their direct neighbours. even with the Senate granting them rights, they have little hope of being left alone as both sides will most likley resume whatever they were doing int he first place, and when the Empire rolls around... Well let's just say that there are advantages to no-one knowing you exist.

----------


## Iskar Jarak

The original Clone Wars boasts a Talz Jedi. I want to say that there's another Talz in one of the movies as well, probably in ANH. 

With Clone Wars, I do find myself wishing there was a little more going on. Subtlety is not it's strong suit.

It also occasionally rams headlong into major stakes problems. *Spoiler: Future episode spoiler*
Show

There's one episode where Mace Windu and Anakin are trapped and waiting on R2-D2 to save them and that's pretty much it.  They all die. There isn't even any conflict between Mace Windu and Anakin, they just sort of lie there and wait for the episode to end.

----------


## Peelee

> C3-PO and R2 are also there, why not?


That remknds me, the show could have been titled "Oh, And R2-D2 And C-3PO Are There For Some Reason" instead.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The original Clone Wars boasts a Talz Jedi. I want to say that there's another Talz in one of the movies as well, probably in ANH.


Ah, yes, that's the thing! 




> snip


{scrubbed}

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## Iskar Jarak

> [scrub the post, scrub the quote]


Sorry about that. My bad, won't happen again. 





> That reminds me, the show could have been titled "Oh, And R2-D2 And C-3PO Are There For Some Reason" instead.


I don't mind R2-D2 and C-3P0 wandering around in the background, but when they get the spotlight, interesting things tend to not happen.

----------


## Peelee

> I don't mind R2-D2 and C-3P0 wandering around in the background, but when they get the spotlight, interesting things tend to not happen.


I don't even mind when they're showcased, I just dislike how they are shoehorned in for no reason other than Lucas wanted it. Of course, that complaint is more for the entire prequels, but still.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Peelee*
> _I don't even mind when they're showcased, I just dislike how they are shoehorned in for no reason other than Lucas wanted it. Of course, that complaint is more for the entire prequels, but still._


So much this.  I don't dislike them, but the prequels needed new and different droids.  

I always enjoyed Bollux and Blue Max from the original Han Solo trilogy.  They were interesting, creative, served a purpose in the story, and fit the Star Wars style while being unique in their own right.  It's a shame they were never incorporated into anything afterwards.

----------


## Jasdoif

I will note that George Lucas decided his cameo character (Baron Papanoida) was Pantoran rather than Wroonian after this episode aired.




> The only alien left is Senator Chichu who is dejected by the whole thing. The Jedi ask her if she can't appeal to the senate so that they'd get authority to intervene. She can't without Cho's authorization... or the Speaker of the Assembly's. So this is a constitutional monarchy, then?


*Spoiler: An episode a couple seasons later*
Show

Baron Papanoida took over Cho's job, so I'm not entirely sure how monarchy-y (monarchish?  monarchesque?) the whole thing is.  Then again, baron _is_ a noble title....And as you said earlier, "queen" is a title for an elected official elsewhere in the setting....
In conclusion, heck if I know; could be some sort of semi-presidential system for all I can tell.




> Rex, five clones and the useless load have managed to flee to some natural ice bridge but it collapses under two speeders (how does antigravity even work?).


Based solely on the name, I imagine repulsorlifts generate lift by repelling the solid ground below them, and "equal and opposite reaction" with the sheer mass differential means the repulsorlift floats relative to the virtually-unmoved planet, in apparent defiance of gravity.




> I think they could have explained that the planet held some kind of resource that was important to Pontara's economy which would have neatly explained Cho's insistance that the planet remained his people's property as well as the Republic and Separatist interest for the planet (what where they even doing there, anyway?).


C-3PO's whining at the beginning was to touch on this: Cho requested the Republic have an outpost there.  Past that, I'd have to speculate to the point of making good-sounding guesses....

----------


## Peelee

> *Spoiler: An episode a couple seasons later*
> Show
> 
> Baron Papanoida took over Cho's job, so I'm not entirely sure how monarchy-y (monarchish?  monarchesque?) the whole thing is.  Then again, baron _is_ a noble title....And as you said earlier, "queen" is a title for an elected official elsewhere in the setting....
> In conclusion, heck if I know; could be some sort of semi-presidential system for all I can tell.


It's quite clearly a Frontarchy.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

Are you sure 3PO showing up was George's call? Dave Filoni loves his pointless cameos.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Are you sure 3PO showing up was George's call? Dave Filoni loves his pointless cameos.


Him and his counterpart being in the prequels at all was definitely pointless and Lucas's fault at any rate.
Which made Obi-Wan Kenobi a droidist on top of a liar and necessited 3Po had his mind wiped for no reason.

----------


## dancrilis

> Him and his counterpart being in the prequels at all was definitely pointless and Lucas's fault at any rate.
> Which made Obi-Wan Kenobi a droidist on top of a liar and necessited 3Po had his mind wiped for no reason.


On the other hand it does mean that R2-D2 is seemingly from Naboo and close to the Padme who was close to Palpatine meaning that we can imagine:
1: R2-D2 was Palpatine's spy all along and that everything that he was a part of was therefore part of Palpatine's machinations.
2: The entire series is merely the battle between two rivals extending their planarary conflict to a galactic stage, Palpatine and R2-D2 (in one of the RPG books they were both the joint smartest characters listed).




> ... droidist ...


Well he did say he never owned a droid ... which is true, he just didn't mention that he knew who did and they frequently hung around together.

But I think this is just another little bit where every Star Wars movie after the first just tries to harm it a little bit ... they know they can't equal it so they try to drag it down.

----------


## Fyraltari

It just dawned on me that its not a question of if Chewabacca is going to show up but when he inevitably will.

----------


## Peelee

> It just dawned on me that its not a question of if Chewabacca is going to show up but when he inevitably will.


*Spoiler: Fun fact, this spoiler box contains a single word.*
Show

Yep!


Also, text in the spoiler tag itself should count towards the character limit, IMO.

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## dancrilis

> It just dawned on me that its not a question of if Chewabacca is going to show up but when he inevitably will.


I couldn't remember if he did or didn't, so I looked it up.

*Spoiler: Answer - mildly expanded*
Show


No does.
Seemingly for only a single episode and seemingly does not meet any of the movie cast (that is a bit vague from how wookieepedia mentions and I am not intending a rewatching anytime soon).

----------


## Peelee

I don't think I mentioned this, but I'm actually going over a rewatch to keep up with the thread.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I don't think I mentioned this, but I'm actually going over a rewatch to keep up with the thread.


Ive been meaning to ask, are you keeping one step ahead of me to have the episode in mind when reading my post or the other way round? Or just watching at your own pace?

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## Peelee

> Ive been meaning to ask, are you keeping one step ahead of me to have the episode in mind when reading my post or the other way round? Or just watching at your own pace?


All of the above, kind of.

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## Fyraltari

> All of the above, kind of.


That sounds a lot like option 3.

----------


## Peelee

> That sounds a lot like option 3.


I'm doing a lot of sanding/filling/painting over and over so having stuff on in the background that i can miss bits of is very helpful, so while I'm trying to keep pace (ahead of time), sometimes I go far in advance, and sometimes I hold off and throw something else up (I just finished all 8 seasons of M*A*S*H, for example, sans the finale).

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 1, Episode 16: The Hidden Enemy*

This is my favourite episode so far, second to the one on the outpost.

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

We open on the strategically important world of Christophsis, this seems to be set just before the pilot movie.
Anakin and Obi-Wan have laid an ambush for an oncoming droid battalion splitting, their forces into two different towers. The droids however, do not spring the trap but separate. Before our heroes can figure out what's up, the B1 burst the doors open and start shooting at Obi-Wan's group. You know when they just shut the hell up they actually manage to look somewhat intimidating. Anakin orders a pilot named Hawk to bring his gunship to Obi-Wan's tower and uses his clones grappling guns to cross the street with his group while the ennemy shoots them. They meet up and escape through the roof. Stupidly the tactical droid in charge lead his troops himself so Cody rips its head off in the hopes of finding out how they knew about the ambush.

Back to base, the droid's head self-destructs after revealing that the Separatists had complete knowledge of the Republicans' plans but before revealing how. Also the clones call them "Seppies", does that make them "Reppies"? Anakin and Obi-Wan think that this goes beyond a mere security leak, there must be a trairor in their mist. This retroactively makes the ease R3-S4 will have infiltrated them twice as dumb, by the way. They decide to to infiltrate the Separists own base themselves and leave Rex and Cody to try and root out the traitor. This is Anakin and Obi-Wan's only meaningful contribution to the plot. Rex orders D2 to run an analysis of the main computer, hoping the traitor was sloppy. But before he's done though, they discover that a comm-link was switched on during their discussion and the traitor presumably heard the whole thing, they leave the room and spot a figure in the corridor who immeadiately runs away (what was he doing here? Those comm bracelets have way more range than that) and loses himself in the mess. The mess where only clones are eating. The traitor isn't just a fellow Republican, he was born into their clone as well. This hits them pretty hard. As they come back to the strategic room, R2 shows them his findings: a specific interference that comes back every few days, always coming from the same barrack. Which makes the unit there especially suspect.

Anakin and Obi-Wan are driving towards the Separatist base and the droids despite spotting them do not open fire and let them proceed. They immediately spot that it is a trap but anakin is cocky enough to go see what it's all about anyway. Hey, I can hear Sun Tzu roll in his grave all the way from China. Their interaction is pleasant enough as they seem to generally value each other's input. The Separatists' headquarters turns out to be a former library where they are met by the the mastermind behind all this: Asajj Ventress. And I'm sorry but are she and Obi-Wan _flirting_!? What? Who? Why? I don't... Anyway they fight for a bit until she says she has distratec them long enough and lead them outside the room where her army has assembled and challenge them to take her on, now. They opt to steal two jetbikes and hightail outta there. Ventress orders General Loathsome (not even bothering with a clever name there) to delay the Jedi (he doesn't) until her master's plan is accomplished. I don't remember Dooku's plan from the movie having anything todo with christophsis but okay. Loathsome is the same elephant-like guy from the beginning of the movie, by the way, he only gets a visual cameo because I guess they didn't want to pay his voice actor. This takes place all ove the episode but since it's unconnected to the rest of it,  I'm summarizing it here.

Rex and Cody have summoned Sergeant Slick who leads the unit in the suspicious barrack. He is adamant his men would never betray the Republic but his pleas are cut short by the arrival of his men, all five of them. (they get an entire barrack for six guys? Comfy.) Rex and Cody starts the interrogation: #1 is embarrassed to admit he was cleaning his weapon, which the others confirms he does obsessively after each mission, Cody asks if he turned on the computer for that to which #1 says he hasn't, all flustered-like. Ah, I was wondering if there was going to be adult jokes in this show, glad to see there are some. Though this is making me wondering about the clone's... err... anatomy. #1's weapon is freshly scrubbed so our detectives move on. #2 and #3 were in the mess. This raises their susîcion especially when they claim "lot's of guys" as a witness. Slick insists he gets a moment alone with his men, but #4 would rather get this over with: he was in the infirmary getting a minor wound tended to he shows his bandage as proof and says the medical droid will confirm. #5 at first refuses to answer then claim to have been in the mess which #3 immediately denies before rectifying that Chopper (#5) did get to the mess but he was late. Rex and Cody starts pressing the guys for answers and he amits he was hiding near the south exit putting together a necklace of battledroid fingers. He explains that he feels that they owe him something (probably because of the burn scar covering most of his face). Everybody else in the room is disgusted as taking trophies is apprently illegal for some reason (I'm pretty sure I've seen clones with tally marks on their helmets and armour so what gives?) one clone even calls Chopper "defective". this is interesting, I'll come back to it later. Chopper gets defensive when Slick points out that A) this is not an alibi and B) this does not speak to his moral charcater and Slicks tries to calm him down by promising a proper investigation when the Jedi come back. Chopper just gets more riled up and asks where Slick himself was as he's seen him go through the south exit towards the command center rather than head to the barracks or the mess with the rest of them. Slick denies saying tha Chopper is obviously making things up to try to deflect blame. Cody simply asks him how he knows the Jedi aren't currently at the base since that's classified. "I really wish you hadn't noticed that, sir." A quick brawl ensues as Rex is flaggerbasted by Slick's treason.

They pursue Slick to the weapons' dépôt but it turns out he only stayed there long enough to plant some explosives and take out most of their artillery and vehicules. Realizing that Slick isn't trying to escape, Rex and Cody head back to the command center. This is where Slick is hiding, inside an air-vent. Our duo tries to think like their turncoat brother. Where would he go? They both wordlessly realizes that he must be in this very room and stealthily spot his hiding spot. Cody leaves his blaster in plain view of Slick and says that the explosion knocked oout their power which triggered a lockdown, therefore Slick won't try to escape. Rex counters that he would espect them to think that and so must be trying to force their way right now as he moves out of Slicks' sight. Cody pointedly turns his back to Slick and say he will stay to reboot the systems. Rex activates the door to simulate his departure. Slick leaves his hiding spot, takes Cody's blaster and points it at the commander who shows him the magazine in his hand while Rex places his won gun on his neck. Was that a triple or quadruple bluff? Whatevr it was it was clever. They all start explaining their thought process with Slick catching up and they end up quoting what was probably their standard trianing verbatim. Why did Slick betray the Republic? Money, yes but mostly something he doesn't expect the other two to comprehend: he wanted a chance at a free life. There's another quick brawl but he is taken prisoner again and brought to the Jedi. Anakin is severely disappointed but Slick simply calls the Jedi out for enslaving the clones. Rex counter that he endangered his own brothers  for his own benefit. Slick is shaken by this but insistis that he loves his brothers and was makign a blow for all clones. Cody doesn't buy that stating that if he loved them he wouldn't have sold them out. Neither actually denies his point of being slaves though. He is taken away and our final shock is of the two brothers framed by the Jedi's legs, looking pensive. Cue the pilot movie.




*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

During the episode I wondered how Ventress and Slick got in touch, but the other clone-centric episode (with Heavy, Fives and Echo) showed her on Kamino so I guess that's that. I don't think Ahsoka was in that episode and Rex and Cody seemed less used to each other if memory serves os there's a good chance these episodes were in order relative to one another.

Quickly, can we talk about Kenobi's little trick at the beginning of the movie? The one where he pretends to surrender but draws out the surrender long enough to mount a counter-attack. That's a war crime in real-life. Wha'=t's more it pretty much tanled any chance of any Separatist ever wnating to negotiate with Kenobi or take his troops prisoners rather than butchering them. This may have really hurt the Republic's credibility when making ouvertures of peace to the Separatists. You'd think that a skilled negotiator like Kenobi would have known that. Of course it's moot because Sidious, but still...

Alright, this is a clone-centric episode so I ahve to wondered why cut to the Jedi so often? The fight they get doesn't add anything and I just kepts wishing we'd get back to the clones. Feels like this time would have been better used showing Cody and Rex play off of each other some more. I like their dynamic of Cody being methodical and analytical (he notices Slick's slip up) and Rex being more instinctive (he thinks of checking the computer) but both being close enought they can communicate without words because they are thinking alike.

Bakc to the "defective" slur. I hadn't considered it but it makes sense that the cloning process can't be 100% effective (nothing is) meaning that some mutations might creep in or slight differences in an otherwise identical environment might snowball. There would be a Bernard Marx or two. The kaminoan probably have thresholds for what is acceptable and what is defective and the clones are probably closely monitored during their first years to weed out the defective ones. This explains the variations in personnality that we see but it also mean that human social dynamics apply. The more charismatic and headstrong one become leaders, circle of riends form etc. I would expect that, for example the drivers, pilots, footmen, commandos and spaceship crews all have some sort of rivalry going on. And of course every group large enough has somebody that doesn't fit in, somebody the others may pick on. In French that's called a "souffre-douleur" (pain-sufferer) don't know what it's called in English. In this unit that's Chopper because of all their personnalities, his is the quirkiest, the outlier (or at least that's what it seemed). In this environment it's only natural that "defective" becomes the go-to insult to make your brother feel terrible. I imagine they have horror stories about sound clones being accidentally switched with defectives or suchlike.

Now, Slick. Slick wants to defect because he feels like a slave. How exactly a default that big slipped under the kaminoans' radar, I don't know. But it's impressive on his part. After all the clones are born for a purpose, they don't have the anxiety of choosing their path in life as the reason for their existence is pretty obvious and the non-clone people they frequent the most (military people and Jedi) are the least likely in the galaxy to challenge the notion that duty always come first. To throw away his  indoctrination like that demanded courage, not physical but emotionnal. It's nietzschean in a way. Of course he should probaly haev tried defecting rather than full-blown selling out but still points for free-thinking. Ironically, overestimating his difference of thinking with his brothers is what caused him to fall for Rex and Cody's trap. He was so used to seeing what the others ignore he didn't realize how close they still were (and therefore, how predictible he still was).

You know, it makes sense that the clone would go on to become the first generation of stormtrooper as they are basically any authoritarian's wet dream. A military force with no-life outside duty, cut-off from the civilian population, trained for birth to obey orders. They wouldn't really care for the ideal of democracy since they never got to taste any of that. As they have always lived under Palpatine's administration they would naturally consider his name to be synonymous with "head of state". If the officers are selected from birth they would naturally see hierarchy as an intrisinc, unmoving structure and so wouldn't care for social mobility and if they were selected among those who showed early signs of being fit to lead (imposed themselves as leaders of their own bands, took responsability for their actions, etc.) they would naturally consider being in a position of authority as proof that you are fit for the position. Both things that lend themselves very well to a totalitarian mindset.
And of course being all humans, it would be easy for them let prejudice about non-humans settle in.
I'm not saying that they would all be blind to the reality of the Galaxy but biases are tricky and I doubt their education had much in the way of history and social sciences.

By the way, does anyone know of a story featuring Cody _after_ Order 66?

----------


## Sapphire Guard

Great Episode.

----------


## dancrilis

> By the way, does anyone know of a story featuring Cody _after_ Order 66?


Haven't read it, didn't know is existed until I looked, but there seems to be one (and seemingly only one).

It is in 'Star Wars Helmet Collection 35'.
*Spoiler: What it is about(in relation to Cody)*
Show





> During the Imperial Era, Cody and the 212th, by then serving as stormtroopers, assisted in the Galactic Empire's final enslavement of the Wookiee homeworld of Kashyyyk.





In legends there is another other(s), 'Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II' (which I have not played).
*Spoiler: What it is about (in relation to Cody)*
Show





> Commander Cody was in charge of an Imperial Battalion that was stationed in Timira City, one of the cloning facilities located on his homeworld of Kamino.


...
Seems the clones were phased out and replaced with recruits - Cody found them lacking - and was fairly bitter, the garrison was eventually wiped out by the rebels but the fate of Cody was ambiguous.

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## Fyraltari

Okay I have just watched three episodes in a row and, even though the third episode helped, the first two left me with way too much _Phantom Menace_ ins my system to dwell on them this evening. Expect the reviews some time tomorrow.

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## Jasdoif

> Okay I have just watched three episodes in a row and, even though the third episode helped, the first two left me with way too much _Phantom Menace_ ins my system to dwell on them this evening. Expect the reviews some time tomorrow.


I believe that makes the last of those three my actual-favorite episode of the season.

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## DataNinja

For all of Traviss' faults, I really like the Republic Commando novels for expanding on the clone mentality and all that. Granted, there's definitely a lot of Mando-shilling at the expense of every other faction, but if you can bear that, I find the series a pretty good read.

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## Fyraltari

Okay, let's get this out of the way. The good thing is those three are in order from worst to good, so it'll get easier.


*Season 1, Episode 17: Blue Shadow Virus*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

So, three droids (including a tactical droid) were spotted wandering the grasslands of Naboo and shot down by Captain Tycho. Nothing in the episode ever explains why the hell they were out in th eopen like that. Which sets nicely the average Seaparatist brainpower in this one. Urgh. fearing that this is the early stage of an invasion, Senator Padmé Amidala and... and... Why are you doing this to me, Filoni? and _representative. Jar. Jar. Binks._.. *deep sigh* arrive back on their homeworld. This is the third Jar Jar episode in one season. Why oh why? George Lucas is listed as executive producer, was he still under the impression that children loved the character? Did Filoni thought he could reedeem him? Did a network bigwig set a non-negotiable minimum of "hilarious" goofiness a season? I just don't understand. He's had more screen-time than Cody, Yoda and Windu put together! He's had more screen time than Padmé! Whyyyyyyyyyyy? *incontrollable sobbing*

...

Ahem.

...

Senator Padmé Amidala and Representative Jar Jar Binks arrive back on their homeworld. IS there any reason as to why two politicians supposed to represent their respective people in the galactic scene one of which is supposedly leading the effort to find a peaceful end to the war would leave their post to enquire in matters of security? Silly, Fyr, Naboos don't need reasons to do stuff. They are greeted by Naboo's absurdly teenage queen and Tycho and taken to an operating room where a medical droid is operating on the tactical droid in order to cut his optic receptors and trick him into believing he is on a Separatist warship and about to be debriefed and commended by count Dooku. This would almost be clever if there was any reason stated why they couldn't hack into his memory like they did *in the last episode* and like they will hack into one of the B1s later in this very episode. Amazingly 3PO manages to mess this up before Binks as he gets excited when the droid mentions both a virus and a laboratory and asks for the location of the lab. Not to worry, Jar Jar is not far behind as he's spent the entire interrogation chasing a butterfly who crept out of one of the B1's casing and ends up collapsing the shelves onto the tactical droid crushing its computing unit. Great frickking job. Jar JAr manages to compensate by explaining that the butterfly is only native to one specific swamp on the planet which, coupled with the mud on the droids tell them where to find the lab. So not only is this the third Jar JAr episode but it also is the third "the Separatists havea secret weapon episode".
This is going to be a great day!

They talk with Yoda and windu over hologram who decide to send up a couple Jedi investigate. Padmé immediately requests for _her booty call_ Anakin and Obi-Wan arguing that the gugngan trust Obi-Wan like one of their own. Surprised they passed on a chance to have her say he has good relations with the gungans. But the fact that there are people qualified to deal with this sort of situations will not deter Padmé from her urge to go investigate herself right now. With no escort at all. And Jar Jar, so like a negative escort, actually. This is a terrible idea that will cause basically the entire conflict of the next episode by the way. She and Jar Jar put on some hazardous environment protection suits (Behold! The only sensible decision in this entire episode!) and meet with a confused gugan whose cattle were poisoned by the river they drank from. This gungan is called Peppi, which sould a lot like "pipi" wich is French for "pee" aptly summarizing my opinion of this whole episode. Convenient! There's a dumb fight between Peppi and Jar Jar (fortunately, my fear that this was a prelude to getting Jar Jar a girlfriend in the form of Peppi seems unsubstantiated) before she points them in the direction of the swamps. Because they didn't think to bring a map despite knowing the name of the place they were headed to. Peppi also explains that the disease is in the water so the hazmat suits are overkill and they take them off. Inside the swamp they find a metallic hatch on the ground so Padmé asks for a geological scan of the area. However they were noticed by a scope and a mad scientist type with a stupid fake german accent (****'s sake.) sends some droids to take them prisoner because he could use some more test subjects. And by test subjects he means "people to rant to for hours while mass production of my product is almost done). The mad scinetist show Padmé and JAr Jar a tiny vial contening a blue smoke and explains he's created an airborn strain of the deadly Bloo Shaydo wirus Blue Shadow virus which he intends to let loose of the galaxy as revenge for the eradication of the earlier, waterborne, strain. He then puts the virus in a bomb and hands it to a rodent-like droid (literally called "rabbit droid" in the credits) while mentionning it's the last one. Oh and he has a lighting rod, presumably so he can yell "It's alive!" in his ridiculous german accent.(did you know that Victor Frankenstein was a French-speaking swiss in the original?)

Obi-Wan and Anakin and Ahsoka (buy a Master and a Knight and get a padawan for free!) land on Theed and are greeted by Tycho and Peppi. Tycho explains the situation and get a dressign down from Anakin for letting his wife the Senator into danger. Anakin then sends Ahsoka with Peppi to the swamp before the briefing is even done. Sure, sure, send the civilian into the battlezone, standard Jedi tactic #420. Tycho shows thema recording pried from one of the battle droid of the mad scientist ranting about the Blue Shadow and identify him as Dr. Vindi (I am relieved this isn't a pun on his obvious real-life inspiration). Obi-Wan states that if Vindi manages to plant his bom bs on key systems, as he syas he intends to, the resulting pandemic will make the war look like small potatoes. Which brings me to my question. WHAT IN THE HOLY BLAZES IS THIS PLAN!? Why is this secret lab on a nnemy planet rather than a Separatist controlled one or a neutral one like last time? And, more importantly, why is Dooku even supporting this? He was skeptical about the defoliating weapon and this one had a clear controllable purpose. The way they talk about this virus it would leave the Sith ruling a galaxy of corpses and they have no guarantee of not being infected either! What's the point of this! I mean I guess that Dooku and Sidious intentionnally staffed the Separatist top brass with despicable people as a way to ramp up the war casualty and fuel the anti-non-human prejudice of the core world so they can use that as foundation for the Empire, but this is utterly out of proportions!
Anyway, Anakin gets really worried about Padmé. Kenobian glare. Senator Amidala (Have I mentionned how much he sucks at this "secret" romance thing?)
Tycho shows them a plan of the lab, gained thanks to the geological scan requested by Amidala, and they identify three entry points and the main lab (not sure how). Ahsoka reports that Padmé is missing and they spot the scopes when one accidentally lifts Peppi off the ground. Anakin orders her to stay in position and, on his signal attack the entry point the farthest away from the main lab with Rex as a diversion so Kenobi and himself can rescue the prisoners and arrest Vindi. Anakin and Obi-wan talk about their feelings a little.
"You seem on edge, Anakin.
-We may be about to extinguish all life on this planet, including ours and the senator. Why aren't you on edge.
-I am. I'm just better at hiding it."
Credit's where credit's due this is great dialog. They are picked up by Rex and move on.

Ahsoka and her team blow up the roof of the first entry point and draw the droids to them, Anakin and Obi-wan each lead separate teams throught he others two. None of th eJedi are wearing protective gear because they are idiots. Obi-Wan tells anakin not to compromise the miscue by prioritizing Amidala ove rthe virus or the doc. Of course he does. Anakin finds Vindi with Padmé and Jar Jar tied to the lightning rod. Vindi threatesn to electrocute them if he doesn't stand down which he does. Vindi says he doesn't hope to restrain them for long (they've dropped their weapon, you can shoot them, you fool!) so he switches the lighting rod on and tells Anakin to choose between svaing his friends or catching him as he leaves with a case full of virus vials. Anakin destroys the droids and switches the rod off. Padmé tells him to try the reverse order next time. Obi-Wan finds the bomb warehouse just as Vindi activates them all. Meawhile the rodent droid has apparently spent the last six hours going from the main lab to the warehouse and hides with the last bomb. Obi-Wan notices the last bomb and Padmé realizes it must be with the droid. Anakin and Ahsoka meet and catch up with the doctor as an automatic door closes between them. The Doctor forces anakin out of the door by throwing a vial. Anakin forgets he doesn't need to touch things to catch them and throw himslef through the door. The doctor reaches an elevating platform with his shuttle on it and starts leaving. Jar Jar gets distracted by an hydroponic garden which just so happens to be the hiding place of the rodent dorid. They capture the last bomb with minimal effort but the bomb squad still needs to get there before the timer runs out. Obi-Wan reaches Anakin who is carving a parth through the door. Once inside Anakin and Obi-Wan jump on the moving platform but Vindi throws three vials in the air. Obi-Wan forgets he doesn't need to touch things to catch them and launch hismelf in the air to intercept. The platform emerges under Peppi's feet. There's a brief stand-off and Peppi uses th efact that Vindi ahsn't spotted her to tackle him. He is taken prisoner. The good guys rejoice.
Unfortunately they all forgot about the fact that the waterborne strain of the virus was already released into the river Peppi's herd was drinking from and hundreds of millions of gungans and Naboo persih in the following months. what do you mean, no? The episode wouldn't completely forget about that bit would it? WOULD IT?



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

In case I haven't made clear by now this episode is almost pure dreck. That is all.

*Spoiler: Oh and this is Vindi during this entire episode*
Show

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## dancrilis

> Unfortunately they all forgot about the fact that the waterborne strain of the virus was already released into the river Peppi's herd was drinking from and hundreds of millions of gungans and Naboo persih in the following months. what do you mean, no? The pisode wwouldn't completely forget about that bit would it? WOULD IT?


In fairness:



> ... he intends to let loose of the galaxy as revenge for the eradication of the earlier, waterborne, strain.


Without rewatching it, it sounds like they have already eradicated that strain ... somehow.

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## Fyraltari

> In fairness:
> 
> 
> Without rewatching it, it sounds like they have already eradicated that strain ... somehow.


Except that Peppi's cattle did die from the poisonned water so one way or another the virus is already loose.

----------


## Peelee

> In fairness:
> 
> 
> Without rewatching it, it sounds like they have already eradicated that strain ... somehow.


It was eradicated in the past. He brought it back, and then re-engineered it. So they could take care of it, potentially. Depends on how they eradicated it.

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## Fyraltari

> It was eradicated in the past. He brought it back, and then re-engineered it. So they could take care of it, potentially. Depends on how they eradicated it.


The next episode suggests they found a cure.

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## Peelee

> The next episode suggests they found a cure.


Gotta love that. "The only change is it will be airborne, the galaxy will be decimated, WE ARE DOOME-oh hey a cure, that's handy.

The cherry on the crap sundae that episode was.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 1, Episode 18: Mystery of a Thousand Moons*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

We open seconds after the last epsiode as Obi-Wan and Anakin prepares to bring Vindi in. The little rodent droid steals one of the bombs and commits suicide flooding the lab with the Blue Shadow. Because apparently bombs that were disable using pincers are still perfectly functionnable also why didn't you restrain that one whe you capture it, you idiots? Padmé triggers the lab shutdown sealing the entire lab shut so that no virus can escape to Naboo's atmoshpere.
*Spoiler: Hmm, what about thoses holes you guys made in the roof during your attack?*
Show





This however traps Ahsoka, Rex, Padmé, Jar Jar and some clones inside. Padmé and Jar JAr managed to put there hazmat suits on but Ahsoka & Co aren't fast enough to reach the panic room and are infected. Despite the fact that clone armour can be sealed well enough to allow for a walk in outer space. Of course, of course. Anakin is extremely upset by this development but Obi-Wan argues that bringing Vindi to Coruscant fast is their best hope to find a cure and they can't help the others from where they are anyway.

The episode is pslit between the two Jedi and the others from now, so I'll summarize both one after the other. Ahsoka and Co realize that the surviving droids (there are surviving droids!? Why were you all "mission accomplished! We win"-like when there was still hostiles unaccounted for? Why are you so incompetent!?) will surely try to escape the lab and so release the virus. Since thy're already exposed to the disease Ahsoka and the clones decide to help Padmé track them down even though that'll make their condition worse. MEanwhile I wonder how long the virus can survive outside of an host. They find several groups and destroy them quite easily. One droid manages to reach the top of a ladder leading to a manhole leading to the outside and gloats that it's to let to stop him. He shoots the anhole but the blasts ricochets all around the place à la compacter scene in _A New Hope_ and fries him. THat one made laugh, I'll admit. during the battle, Jar Jar is his hopeless self and falls on Padmé breaching her suit and exposing her to contagion. Ahsoka feels terrible for failing to protect the Senator but she assures her that things like that happens around Jar Jar in a battlefield and it's not her fault. All the clones except Rex die and while Padmé is sorry for her he simply says that dying is what they are born for. I worry about his mental state.

Anakin and Obi-Wan reach Theed and deliver Vindi to Tycho who tells them they know of a cure for the virus: it's made of a root found on the remote world of Iego, the Planet of the Thousand Moons, deep in Separatist Space. You would have hoped that after the last plague of this virus there would be hospital with medicine in storage just in case but I guess they aren't any better than we are at preparing for catastrophes so Anakin and Obi-Wan leave for Iego. Damn, space travel is fast in this universe.

Upon arrival the are surprised to see, in addition to the aforementionned moons a whole ship graveyard. They do manage to land and are welcomed by a crowd of battle droids. Anakin mindlessly charges them and destroys a good number before noticing that they don't fight back and all have mismatched parts and graffitti on thems. Obi-wan congratulates Ani on killing seventeen unarmed droid as another one falls down and Anakin meekly corrects "eighteen..." One droid announces that the Mighty Jebo wishes for an audience with them and they are brought to a twelvish year old boy using a vulture droid as support beam for a hamac. Anakin congratulates him on his droid-reprogramming skill and both bound somewhat over their shared interest of droid making. The mood quickly sours as Jebo evades answering to where they can find the root which prompts Anakin to draw his lightsaber to his face. Me likey, his Vader is showing. Obi-Wan manages to cool the situation and they are told the root grows inside a nearby chasm but Jebo says it doesn't matter because ever since the Separatists left (his servants were damaged droid that, I guess, were deemed to expansive to repair) evrybody who tries to leave is stopped by a certain Draal, the mere mention of the name making the droids quiver in fear. An old quarren confirms Jebo's story calling Draal "the phantom ruler of Ieago" Anakin calls bulls...upertition so he shows them a recording of the death of rodian pilot's death. The rodian was Jebo's friend so that was kinda callous. Nobody care though. Also Anakin called the quarren "twitchy" which feels somewhat specist.

Anakin and Obi-wan descend into the chasm where they fight a wasted good design of a bat-like creature and bad design of monstruous plant. There's a visual gag of Anakin drawing a trowel with the same gravitas and determined look Obi-Wan draws his lightsaber with that was nice. they get what they came for without too much trouble though and prepare to leave without listening to the warnings about Draal's ghost. I know Force Ghost aren't a thing until _Revenge of the Jedi_ but you'd think pshycic monks wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the supernatural. Obi-Wan does point out that even if there is no phantom, _something_ is destroying the ships so they better be careful. tHey still trigger a defense system that propmpts a Death Star dish-like cannon to shoot laser that jumps over from asteroid to asteroid in a deadly grid. The people on Iego watches the fireworks. None of them warned them about the form the attack would take though, jerks. Anakin and Obi-Wan retreats to Anakin's fury especially since Padmé calls to tell them the lab is secure but she has been contaminated and wants him to promise nobody will evr open the lab. The communications cuts as she was about to tell him her love for him. Anakin wants to try again immediately but Obi-Wan wants to try to get more data about whatever they are facing, saying that before making a jump, it pays to take two steps back, Anakin retorts that sometimes the will to jump is enough. Obi-wan asks him to trust him and Ankin calms down. I like this bit. Even though the war and Sidiou's manipultions are getting to Ani (that last bit sounded positively Sithish) he stills has enough confidence in Obi-Wan that a simple "trust me" from his mentor and friend is enough for him to reconsider. That's friendhsip, right there.

Anakin and obi-Wan gather the Iegans and expalin that their ghost is just a Separatrist trap. Why on Earth would the Separatists do this? what do they gain from trapping people on this planet? The people don't belive them until a hooded shining figure enters. This is one of the "Angels of the moon of Ieago" Anakin compared Padmé to back in TPM. You can't see may face right now but I'm giving a disapproving look. The angel expalins that the Separatists draw them away from their home-moon and Obi-wan decides this must be where the main laser emmiter is. Because he shook his magic 8-ball offscreen, I don't know. the commandeer Jebo's vulture dorids and link them to Artoo so he cazn remotely fly them (why can't they fly themselves? Why would the astromech have better flying skills than the droids made to fight in space?) and use them as human (well droid) shields against the rays while they take down the cannon. The plans work and they triumphantly announce to the Iegan that they can leave whenever now.

We cut to Anakin and Obi-Wan at the lab as Padmé, Rex and Ahsoka are being evacuated. The mediacl droid expects a full recovery but everybody is just standing around in the open near the lab's open hatch without any protective gear, were'ent you afraid the Blue Shadow would be released. Granted they could have used pumps to make some sort of airlock but a line of dialog about that would've been nice. Padmé is more concerned about Ahsoka than herslef because she's a good person like that. Anakin tells Jar Jar he knows what happened and, rather than the expected result of cursing his line for a thousand generations and promising bodily harm if he ever endangers Padmé again, he says he'll organize some military training for him. Rex immediately and premptively refuses to be the walking disaster area's teacher. I feel like a better resolution would have been to start treating Jar Jar like the civilian he is and keep him out of combat situation, but then again I don't see the appeal of sending teeangers into battle either so I would probably make a poor Jedi.



*Spoiler: My htoughts*
Show

This one wasn't as bad as its predecessor and it gave use some nice Vader-y moment but there's not much else to say about it. It's a ru-of-the mill adventure flick which mercifully limited Jar Jar and Vindi's involvement to a minimum. Still, like the last one the episode only happens because people are stupid on both sides.

Which makes a nice contrast with the next one where people are clever on both sides.

----------


## Jasdoif

It occurs to me that a lot of the first season's episodes come off *really* rushed.  Like they were originally written for longer than the twenty-two-ish minutes they aired as; and a lot of last minute cutting happened to make them fit.  It's acceptable on the character-centered episodes with a relatively straightforward plot, because there's enough time for them to be focused on what actually matters, and forces ditching a lot of distractions.  The more intricate/parallelized plots though....Well, look at these last two episodes: they cut a lot of corners, gloss over inconsistencies instead of dealing with them, and rely a lot on "coincidence".

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## Fyraltari

> There's very few movies I consider perfect or near-perfect. Original Star Wars is one of them. Lightning in a bottle, I tells ya.


No disrespect to Alec Guinness but I sometimes wonder what the movie would have been like had Toshiro Mifune not turned the role of Obi-Wan down.



> It occurs to me that a lot of the first season's episodes come off *really* rushed.  Like they were originally written for longer than the twenty-two-ish minutes they aired as; and a lot of last minute cutting happened to make them fit.  It's acceptable on the character-centered episodes with a relatively straightforward plot, because there's enough time for them to be focused on what actually matters, and forces ditching a lot of distractions.  The more intricate/parallelized plots though....Well, look at these last two episodes: they cut a lot of corners, gloss over inconsistencies instead of dealing with them, and rely a lot on "coincidence".


Thats very possible. Though I think theres a lot of figuring out what were trying to do at play as well which really feeds the confusion of the whole thing.

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## Dargaron

On the one hand, containing a plague in a post-FTL universe should be relatively easy: very few viruses can travel through _space_, so as long as Naboo was quickly and effectively quarantined, the danger level drops from "galaxy-wide disaster" to "planet-wide disaster." You can even theoretically bring supplies in with automated ships and droid workers, traveling in ships with the life support turned off.

On the other hand, seeing Naboo blockaded _again,_ this time by the Republic, would probably exacerbate social unrest on the planet itself, given that the population is still recovering from _Phantom Menace._ I could imagine that the fragile peace between Gungans and humans would be put to the test, not to mention the potential for disaffected citizens/Separatist agitators making the obvious connection: the Separatists must have a cure for their own disease, so if we throw ourselves on their mercy, maybe we'll be spared?

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 1, Episode 19: Storm over Ryloth* a.k.a. Jasdoif's favourite of the season.

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Ryloth, desert planet of the twi'lek has been invaded by Separatist forces commanded by none other than Separatist Council member and leader of the Techno-Union Watt Tambor, who apparently celebrated by getting a voice-box than can speak Basic. This is an odd choice as he isn't a military leader but later in the episode he states that the Republic cannot be allowed to re-take Ryloth so the reason will probably be explained in a follow-up episode. Hopefully it's not yet another secret weapon.

Anakin and Ahsoka are tasked with breaching the Separatist blockade with three destroyers to make way for Windu and Obi-Wan's ground attack. Considering Obi-Wan and Windu's forces are transported inside three more cruisers I'm not entirely clear why they couldn't launch a six-cruisers attack. Also, gotta wonder how Aayla feels, sitting this one out. Ahsoka poorly hides how nervous she is at the prospect of getting her first command (so this takes place before episode 6) which is _not_ helped by Anakin reminding her that the fighter pilots under her depends on her. Also she has a R7 astromech unit so I guess R2 is well past obsolete. Or maybe these are made by Apple? The battle starts well enough as Ahsoka and her squad carve a path through the ennemy fighters in order to destroy the ennemy flagship. But just at this moment, the ennemy captain, a lanky neimoidian with bone protrusions and a weird spinning thing on his space goggles, plays his ace in the hole as four additional Separatists frigates jump out of hyperspace outnumbering the Republicans 7 to 3. Yularen and Anakin both order Ahsoka back but she ignores them, thinking she can still take the command ship down, surrounded as she is. The ennemy engages the three cruisers and Ahsoka finally gives in and head back as more and more of her main are shot down. A Vulture droid crashes on the _Resolute_'s bridge injuring Yularen. Once Ahsoka and her two surviving fighters get back in the hangar, anakin orders a retreat. The _Resolute_ and the _Defender_ make it but the _Redeemer_ goes down in flames.

We cut back to the ennemy captain a few times so I'll cover that here. The captain, who the credits tell me is named Mar Tuuk, has a ridiculous East-Asian accent. There are alot to say about _Star Wars_' use of accents but this isn't the place so I'll just say that I'm not a fan and move on. He identified Anakin as his Republican counterpart by the cruiser and is proud to report to Tambor that the Jedi ran away, their ships in flame. Tambor insists he does not underestimate the Jedi so he has a droid pull out everything they have on Skywalker to study his ennemy. Okay, can this guy lead the Separatist army instead of Grievous? He cleraly knows what he's doing. He concludes that Anakin will be back sooner than later and hes his fleet get ready to battle. He also expresses that he admires Anakin as a warrior and a general and anticipates beating him with gusto.

Anakin, meanwhile, admonishes Ahsoka for disobeying her orders. She answers that he does the same all the time (Ep.3 comes to mind) and he admits to understanding her position. Realizing how badly the loss of her men is affecting her, he tells her that it isn't her fault they fell into a trap and that that's the reality of command. yeah, this isn't a lesson that teenagers should ever learn. And no, the fact that the clones are all younger then her does not make it better, it makes it so much worse! Anakin gets distracted by a call about problems with the _Defender_ and Ahsoka sneaks out. Obi-wan wants a status update.He expresses concern about Ahsoka's well being and tells Anakin he (Ani) needs her. Windu explains that their forces are stretched too thinly to lend Anakin more support and Anakin agrees that they need to come back immediately to save the starving twi'leks, then he orders Rex to fetch Ahsoka.. Ahsoka went to the sick bay to apologize to an unconscious Yularen about her dead squadron and is soon fetched by Rex. Anakin explains that they are going back a prospect that floors Ahsoka, terrified at the idea of losing any more soldiers and stating that they can't just take the blockade head-on. They get into an argument (Anakin sounds a lot like Kenobi) and her master grounds her orders her to her quarter until she is calm again.

She soon hears ruckus outside and upon enquiring is told the _Defender_ is being evacuated. She meets with Anakin and asks what's going on. He explains that he has a plan thanks to her criticisms: they can't take the blockade head-on and he endangers to omany people. He's going to fly the _Defender_ solo with R2 and ram it into the droid command ship, this way he only endangers himself (guess R2 doesn't count) and the ship was already pretty banged-up anyway. He leaves her in charge of all the details like actually winning the battle and saving his skin. She starts to protest but he loudly puts her in charge in front of every clone presents and leave. Ahsoka explains the plan to Rex and another clone (the ship's captain? I don't know). they think it's a terrible plan and askas how she plans on taking the six remaining ennemy vessels with only one. She thinks they can angle the _Resolute_ 90° so that the greater hull will shield the bridge and launch their fighters as the ennemy ships close in to outflank them (reminds mme of the beginning of the _Thrawn Trilogy_). Excuse me but no! YOU DO NOT GET TO POINT OUT THAT _STAR WARS_'S SPACE BATTLEs MAKE NO SENSE SHOW! These space battles are aping XVIIIth century naval battles and XXth century air battles and they don't make sense in space, you don't get to present a character as clever by having her point out the convention of your own franchise, in this case that everybody is using an arbitrary up for some reason!
*Spoiler: Fyraltari, writing this*
Show



Anyways the clone think this is a terribler plan and show no trust in her until she acts up and Yularen comes in to support her and defer to her judgement. Also, maybe criticizing the strategy while your fearless leader is in the middle of Leeroy Jenkinsing his way into battle is not wise timing, guys.

Anakin's ship reaches Ryloth space and he constitues himself, his ship and his crew prisoner in exchange for food distribution to the twi'lek. Add that to the ever expanding list of Republic war crimes, please, I see Obi-Wan is teaching him well. This works for a bit until the Separatists' scans show only one life-form onboard and a pretty banged-up ship. Anakin tells them to keep the ship as he escapes in a pod. The captain orders all canon to fire but it's not enough to stop the flaming wreck. Uhh, dodge? Your spaceship can move right? The captian abandons ship in his own escape pod presumably to show up again next time. The_Resolute_ shows up and Ahsoka's plan works flawlessly once the droids have figured out which one of them is in charge now. Yularen once again defers to her auhtority evn though he outranks her ("fighters launch, on you order commander!) and Anakin proudly watches his apprentice's work. Obi-Wan and friends arrive arrive and Kenobi decides not to ask why Anakin's fleet is reduced to one cruiser and his apprentice is leading the battle while he's an escape pod. Ahsoka opines that that's for the best.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Clearly this was Ahsoka's episode. She learned how to pproperly send people to their death! Yeepee!
Joking aside, once you are taking part in a war in a commanding position, learning to obey your superiors and to trust in your own skills are probably valuable lesson. I dunno, I've never been. Anakin's teaching methods are as unconventionnal as the rest of him but he has his padawan figured and it's nice to see both he an dObi-Wan care for her. Yularen's (not so subtle) nudge were a nice touch. That's a solid episode I just think it would have worked better if it hadn't been placed after an episode where she had already resolved these issues and if the clones that died under her had shown up in some prior episodes if only just as name-checks.

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## dancrilis

> ... war crimes ...


They are only war crimes if you lose (or if your bosses hang you out to dry for political reasons).

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## Fyraltari

> They are only war crimes if you lose (or if your bosses hang you out to dry for political reasons).


Oh yeah, Im sure everybody will be A-OK with ennemy no longer accepting surrender or truces. I mean its not like anybody would _want_ to limit the casualties of the war.

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## dancrilis

> Oh yeah, Im sure everybody will be A-OK with ennemy no longer accepting surrender or truces. I mean its not like anybody would _want_ to limit the casualties of the war.


Those forces seem to be broadly Droids, Clones and Jedi - I don't know if the ultimate leader of the Republic or the Seperatists cares that much.

Seperately if there has been peace for a thousand years it is possible that many of those niceties have either been forgotten (or never existed).

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## Peelee

> Oh yeah, Im sure everybody will be A-OK with ennemy no longer accepting surrender or truces. I mean its not like anybody would _want_ to limit the casualties of the war.


*Spoiler: Very, very vague spoiler*
Show

Imean, they keep accepting surrenders (and fake surrenders at that!), so...

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## Jasdoif

> Add that to the ever expanding list of Republic war crimes, please, I see Obi-Wan is teaching him well.


"Perfidy" is a fun word.




> The captain orders all canon to fire but it's not enough to stop the flaming wreck. Uhh, dodge? Your spaceship can move right?


Lucrehulk battleships are glorified freighters (seriously, look at the name: they're _hulks_ for _lucre_, filthy or otherwise), maneuverability is understandably sub-freighter from all the weapons and shields glued onto them.




> Yularen once again defers to her auhtority evn though he outranks her


This is largely tangential, but *Spoiler: Make it STOP*
Show

I figure this is the time to complain about someone deciding voluntary demilitarization was the way to explain the difference between the Old Republic and the Not-So-Old Republic.  No, really: the Republic hadn't had a traditional military for the past thousand years; the Jedi somehow were able to handle everything that an independent planetary defense force couldn't for all that time....

Suspension of disbelief aside, it does explain pretty well why the Republic keeps using the clone army: they needed an army, as the Jedi were about to be crushed at the end of Attack of the Clones and the Confederacy clearly had a lot more forces than were deployed at Geonosis.  At the same time, it throws up the question of who's supposed to be handling command and control for the newfound legion of soldiers...and it doesn't really get caught well.

Jedi are given automatic ranks in the hierarchy of both the Army *and* Navy because...the Republic already relied on them for matters of security beyond the scope of a single planet?  They can maybe see the future?  Palpatine enjoyed having the entirety of the Jedi under his nominal authority?  It'd be harder to tell stories about the Jedi in the Clone Wars otherwise?  Don't know....

Even more confusing is the _non_-Jedi.  The only clear-ish note I can find is that most officers in the Navy (especially at the top) aren't clones; but the most notable one is Yularen himself...who Palpatine bribed with offered the rank of admiral to get him out of his retirement from the Senate _Intelligence_ Bureau.  Are..._all_ the admirals appointed on Palpatine's whim?  Was there some sort of "Y'all wanna be an admir_al_" committee?  Did they pull top-level personnel from worlds with large orbital defense fleets?  Was this even seriously considered by the writers at all?  Don't know....




> Clearly this was Ahsoka's episode.


The majority of the best ones are.

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## Peelee

> The majority of the best ones are.


Seconded. Such as my favorite, for example!  :Small Wink:

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## Sapphire Guard

The fake surrenders really bug me, I'm not going to lie. That's a war crime for very good reasons.

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## Peelee

> The fake surrenders really bug me, I'm not going to lie. That's a war crime for very good reasons.


Wholly agree. I have a lot of issues with the show (such as the fact that the Gungans exiled Jar Jar for clumsiness, but they never seem to find any reason to so much as tell him to stay the crap at home while a representative, despite the fact that he can, _and does_, do significantly more damage), but the fake surrenders top the list. Even in a kids show, that is not something that should be portrayed positively or as a viable tactic at all.

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## dancrilis

> Even in a kids show, that is not something that should be portrayed positively or as a viable tactic at all.


But (and I might be forgetting some instances) it nearly always works so it does seem fairly viable (it would likely also work in real life for a while I imagine).
*Spoiler: Exception*
Show


With the exception of Season 5:16 I suppose - which would be my favourite episode.

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## Fyraltari

> But (and I might be forgetting some instances) it nearly always works so it does seem fairly viable (it would likely also work in real life for a while I imagine).


Generally speaking, the goal of labelling certain tactics as war crimes is to limit bloodshed to actual combattants. Shooting medics, civilians and surrendering soldiers is unacceptable and, in order to allow for this, passing for a medic or a civilian or prentending to surrender is unaceptable too. The moment you start disrespecting these rules, you give the ennemy incentive to shoot to kill your own people when they can't defend themselves because the ennemy can no longer trust that they genuinely cannot and will prioritize the lives of his own people over those of yours. It's a text-book example of a short-sighted move, sacrificing a general good for a localized victory.

On another note, this episode is a good demonstration of why knowing the good guys' plan in advance doesn,'t necessarily make their victory boring: Ahsoka is framed as being unsure of her skills and the ennemy as being very competent as well as the clones openly calling the plan into question, so tension exists.

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## dancrilis

> The moment you start disrespecting these rules, you give the ennemy incentive to shoot to kill your own people when they can't defend themselves ...


Which plays in nicely with the idea that the Jedi had Order 66 coming - they were completely untrustworthy so any capture/surrender/negotiation was out of the question.

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## Fyraltari

> Which plays in nicely with the idea that the Jedi had Order 66 coming - they were completely untrustworthy so any capture/surrender/negotiation was out of the question.


That's not the same. Orderr 66 wasn't an act of war but generalized "police" intervention. They did not engage the Jedi in battle they executed them in a way akin to a field summary execution.

But really my problem is not with the Jedi committing unsavory tactics. My problem is with the show framing them as clever tricks with nobody raising the implications. Especially since several characters are "committed" to peace. The use of a slave children army in the form of the clone is shown not to be a morally flawless actions, even if not treated as the horror it should be, so at least there's that.

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## Sapphire Guard

> Which plays in nicely with the idea that the Jedi had Order 66 coming - they were completely untrustworthy so any capture/surrender/negotiation was out of the question.


Nah. Successful captures of Jedi happen a lot.

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## Jasdoif

> That's not the same. Orderr 66 wasn't an act of war but generalized "police" intervention.


*Spoiler: Later Episode(s)*
Show

The Trade Federation retains its senator in the Republic Senate, who insists that the Trade Federation has always been neutral and is not aligned with the Separatists.  If the Trade Federation isn't even _claiming_ full independence from the Republic Senate, isn't this the same general category of "police intervention" that opened _Phantom Menace_?  (It's even the same senator in both cases....)

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## Fyraltari

I've watched the last episodes of season 1, expect the reviews friday and over the week-end, most likely.

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## Fyraltari

> Lucrehulk battleships are glorified freighters (seriously, look at the name: they're _hulks_ for _lucre_, filthy or otherwise), maneuverability is understandably sub-freighter from all the weapons and shields glued onto them.


You don't really need maneuvrabilty to just go up. They knew Anakin was alone onboard and they saw him leave. The cruiser was just a missile at that point.




> This is largely tangential, but *Spoiler: Make it STOP*
> Show
> 
> I figure this is the time to complain about someone deciding voluntary demilitarization was the way to explain the difference between the Old Republic and the Not-So-Old Republic.  No, really: the Republic hadn't had a traditional military for the past thousand years; the Jedi somehow were able to handle everything that an independent planetary defense force couldn't for all that time....
> 
> Suspension of disbelief aside, it does explain pretty well why the Republic keeps using the clone army: they needed an army, as the Jedi were about to be crushed at the end of Attack of the Clones and the Confederacy clearly had a lot more forces than were deployed at Geonosis.  At the same time, it throws up the question of who's supposed to be handling command and control for the newfound legion of soldiers...and it doesn't really get caught well.
> 
> Jedi are given automatic ranks in the hierarchy of both the Army *and* Navy because...the Republic already relied on them for matters of security beyond the scope of a single planet?  They can maybe see the future?  Palpatine enjoyed having the entirety of the Jedi under his nominal authority?  It'd be harder to tell stories about the Jedi in the Clone Wars otherwise?  Don't know....
> 
> Even more confusing is the _non_-Jedi.  The only clear-ish note I can find is that most officers in the Navy (especially at the top) aren't clones; but the most notable one is Yularen himself...who Palpatine bribed with offered the rank of admiral to get him out of his retirement from the Senate _Intelligence_ Bureau.  Are..._all_ the admirals appointed on Palpatine's whim?  Was there some sort of "Y'all wanna be an admir_al_" committee?  Did they pull top-level personnel from worlds with large orbital defense fleets?  Was this even seriously considered by the writers at all?  Don't know....


Most likely is that anybody with any kind of experience as a commanding officer of a military or assimilated got instantly promoted as a colonel or higher in the Republic Grand Army. The Jedi having been the closest thing the Republic had to a standing army for centuries automatically qualified I guess. Plus Sidoius wanted as many of them killed in combat/falling because of the horrors of war/with their back turned to clone guns.

*Season 1, Episode 20: Innocents of Ryloth*
*Spoiler: Recap*
Show


We are still on Ryloth following last espisode's conclusion. Despite Ahsoka very visibly destroying the ennemy fleet there is apparently still enough ennemy ships in local space that Anakin and his gang are staying up there leaving the ground battle to Windu and Kenobi. And by Windu and Kenobi, I mean Kenobi because as their troop transports close to the ground, Separatists anti-air canon shoot on them forcing them to fly up. Hmm, maybe land somewhere else? they can't have every single usable ground on the planet covered like this. Still, Windu sends Obi-Wan and some gunships to disable the cannons (and take the town they're in). Complicating matters is that the local tactical droid is using the local population as twi'lek shields. You know, I could have sworn it was pronounced "twy-lek".
Flying down Obi-Wan explains to Cody and the boys that since they're here to libearate the twi'leks he wants little to no collateral damage so no explosives or such. One clone (named Waxxer) is excited to see some action and his buddy (Boil) thinks the "tailheads" should just get out of their way. Lovely. Their group lands in a orest an make their way to the edge of the town. The droids keeping watch have machine guns. Obi-Wan takes Waxxer and Boil with him and gets closer to the droids before having them throw EMP grenades at them. the 'nades fall too short but Kenobi remembers he doesn't need to touch things to catch them and give them a boost taking the droids out. You know, the last two secret Separatist weapons were designed to take out organics and leave droids intact but their first (the ion cannon) did the exact opposite. The Republic really should steal that idea.

The tactical droid is busy talking holographically with Emir Watt Tambor (emir? God, Star Wars nobility is confusing). You know last time I joked about his newfound ability to talk Basic being due to a new voicebox but I was dead on the money since he has to fiddle with it to be understandable. He orders the droid to not give any ground to the ennemy, the droid is confident he can take them on ("I am droid I am never wrong" Dude clearly didn't watch the show so far). We see that the whole population of the town (and most droids) are concentrated into a square of sort with the anti-air cannons. The twi'leks are in chain and G-rating brutalized. The tactical droid is informed that the outer defenses aren't reporting anymore (Seriously the fight took a minute of two and none of them radio'd HQ they were under attack? If I hadn't read _Catalyst_ I'd be starting to believe galen Erso programmed these things). The tactical droid sends two probe droids to spy on the Republicans. Obi-Wan and co have entered the town. Obi-Wan is cautious and orders Cody to send his best men on reconnaissance. He sends Boil and Waxxer who seem please to be officially the best. They start scouting and notice that the town is empty. Waxxer wonders what horrible thing happened there while Boil doesn't really care. Cody and another clone spot the droids and the prisonerThey find the droids and report to Kenobi. At the same time the probe droid shows Kenobi in real-time to the tactical droid who takes note of when they plan to attack and go to visit some local predators he's been starving in cages. He tests on one of his soldier that they can differenciate "organic meat" from... non-organic meat? Are the droids actually sillicon-based lifeforms? Either that or whoever wrote this bit of dialog isn't very good at their job.

Boil and Waxxer come across a little twi'lek girl. She doesn't speak Basic and they don't speak whatever language she does so they're kinda stuck. Durin fthis bit they also see the recon droid pass by back to the droid HQ. They scare the girl at first until Waxxer figures out that their all-concealing armours make them look like droids to her (_symbolism!_) so they take off their helmet, give her food and she dubs them both _nera_ to their confusion. Boils insists they leave her and move on because they have a job to do and Waxxer reluctantly agrees because he pities her situation. She catch up to them and sneak ups behind their back, while Waxxer is wondering what will happen to her and Boil pre-emptively refuse to daopt her, taking them by surprise (the crack scout team of whatever unit Obi-Wan's in charge of everybody!). She insits on taking them to a particular house. It's pretty dreary, having clearly been ransacked for everything of value inside and there's a big hole on the roof. They realize it must have been her home and Waxxer finds a doll which he gives to her. She proceeds to craddle the thing while sobbing. Waxxer gives her a hug and then she positively glomps Boil who reciprocates after a moment of hesitation. Meanwhile Cody points out that Boil and Waxxer haven't reported and Kenobi is worried. They ping them and decide to press on the attack. One probe droid is still spying on them so the tactical doid releases the beasts.

Boil and Waxxer head back to camp trying to figure out a lie to explain away their misconduct but immediately stumble on the beasts, huge insect-like quadripeds. They make a hasty reatreat for the girl's house and she shows them a secret passage hidden in the floor (most likely how she avoided capture in the first place). Kenobi and Co are attacked by the creatures an dlosing badly until the Jedi mind-tricks the creature into calm, leads them to a dead end, orders the clones to shoot on an archawy to block their way out and sommersault over the rubble. at that point Boil and Waxxer come out of th eground with a twi'lek baby girl, which is probably not something you see every day in the GAR. Obi-Wan can understand her though (I wonder, do twi'lek only have one native language or did the republican chose their landing ground based on Kenobi's language skills?) and she agrees to lead them through the tunnels. Obi-Wan orders Cody to prepare a diversion while he sneaks to free the prisoners (with only Boil and waxxer along). The tactical droid is told that the gunfire ceased, he concludes that the republicans must have defeated the beast, but have most likely suffered a high degree of casualties so he readies his troops for the final assault. Cody arrives guns blazing and the tactical droid answers with tanks. Obi-Wan and Co sneak in by the place where the besat where kept. One droid is scrubbing the floor of the cages for some mysterious reason and complains that this is the single worst job in the whole stinking droid army. Even noted droidist Obi-Wan Kenobi finds him to pitiful to kill and just locks him in the cage before sneakily cutting the cuffs of the twi'lek with his great glowing falming sword of sneakiness. One of the twi'lek recognizes the little girl and she glomps him, most likely her dad. Kenobi takes control of one of the anti-air guns and shoots at the others creating a real mess. In te chaos of battle, he ends up on the ground while the tactical droid aims his gun at him claiming victory and... _laughs_? A laughing droid? I mean it's not any more absurd than an angry or scared droid but it feels weird. the twi'lek unarmed civilians storm the tank and rip the droid's head off. You know, with all their tech, you'd think they would have figured out a way to drive those things without having their commander pop out of the armoured casing like that.

Victory for the righteous! windu lands near the city and strtas unloading troops and tanks. Hey, couldn't the gunships have made several trips to bring Kenobi some much needed reinforcement? Windu congratulates Kenobi and states that they need to march on the planet's capital. As the Republicans part with the locals, Boil and waxxer say their good bye to their new friend and she call them _nera_ again. They ask Kenobi what it means. "Brother".


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

It was an okay episode. The villain and plot in the strictest sense of the term are forgettable but it's good to have a ground-level view of the war. To see that it really, really, really *suck* for the civilians involved. Boil and Waxxer the tough-exterior-with-a-heart-of-gold and nice guy duo is a tried formula and it delivers. I am very impressed by the clone's voice actor ability to give each clone a slightly different voice. You can hear that it still is the same vocal cords speaking but you can still tell who's telling what by ear alone. This was already true before, but Rex and Cody have very distinctive uniforms and tend to take their helmet off while Boil and Waxxer aren't so visually distinct. The man knows his craft.

Not much to say beyond that.

----------


## DataNinja

> You know, I could have sworn it was pronounced "twy-lek".


I always thought this, too, until I encountered an EU novel where certain ships were nicknamed "Twees" because of their resemblance to Twi'lek heads, apparently. It threw me off for a bit until it finally clicked.

----------


## Peelee

Given that people can't even agree on "care-uh-mel" or "car-mel", for example, I don't think it's too surprising that there are different ways writers imagine a made-up word (even for a species) should be pronounced.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Given that people can't even agree on "care-uh-mel" or "car-mel", for example, I don't think it's too surprising that there are different ways writers imagine a made-up word (even for a species) should be pronounced.


Actually yes, because the one who made up the word (Thor: "all words are made up") could just weight in. Unlike caramel which has a much longer history and so is more prone to the variations in pronounciation caused by the natural drift apart in language.

----------


## Peelee

> Actually yes, because the one who made up the word (Thor: "all words are made up") could just weight in.


And yet people still say "gif" with a hard G. So I'd argue that the creator can try, and I will certainly say it that way, but it's by no means an absolute protection.

----------


## dancrilis

> Actually yes, because the one who made up the word (Thor: "all words are made up") could just weight in. Unlike caramel which has a much longer history and so is more prone to the variations in pronounciation caused by the natural drift apart in language.


But why would they?
Assuming they heard about the variations in pronounciation (which they might not have) the fact that there are variations makes it sounds more like a real word - particularly as it is likely a translated word from the Twi'lek language even different Twi'leks might use different pronounciations when speaking galactic basic (and might have variations in there own language also).

----------


## Fyraltari

> But why would they?
> Assuming they heard about the variations in pronounciation (which they might not have) the fact that there are variations makes it sounds more like a real word - particularly as it is likely a translated word from the Twi'lek language even different Twi'leks might use different pronounciations when speaking galactic basic (and might have variations in there own language also).


That would work if there are variations within the same work but if the same character pronounces it differently in two different works it'd look weird. And I mean, you're fixing everybody else about the word so why not fix that.

Also, it's not a translated word, it's a loanword. If they translated the word for twi'lek in the twi'lek tongue it'd be "people".

----------


## dancrilis

> That would work if there are variations within the same work but if the same character pronounces it differently in two different works it'd look weird. And I mean, you're fixing everybody else about the word so why not fix that.


I have heard the same human pronounce the same word different ways - particularly in relation to names.




> Also, it's not a translated word, it's a loanword. If they translated the word for twi'lek in the twi'lek tongue it'd be "people".


The english word 'human' is different from the english word 'people', why assume that the twi'lek word 'twi'lek' is the same as the twi'lek word 'people'?

----------


## Fyraltari

> I have heard the same human pronounce the same word different ways - particularly in relation to names.


Well, that's weird. But generally, unless your language is as weird as English, it doesn't have several accepted pronunciation for the same word (beyond regional accents anyway).





> The english word 'human' is different from the english word 'people', why assume that the twi'lek word 'twi'lek' is the same as the twi'lek word 'people'?


Okay, let me try this again. A translation is when instead of using the word the other language is using for a concept you use one your language has. A loanword is when your language does not have a word for that concept so you "loan" one from another tongue that does. The words "human" and "people" are synonimous in English so I used "people" instead of "humans" because else that would have been confusing. The galactic civilisation didn't have a word for twi'lek until they met twi'leks because they didn't have a concept of twi'leks before and since that word is not Basic, it is most likely a loanword from one of the twi'lek languages. If one tried to translate the word the twi'lek used to refer to themselves in basic, they'd have to map that to a concept that already exists in Basic. What did the twi'lek mean when said twi'lek before meeting the galactic civilisation? They meant "beings like us" i.e. people.

----------


## dancrilis

> Well, that's weird. But generally, unless your language is as weird as English, it doesn't have several accepted pronunciation for the same word (beyond regional accents anyway).


I am thinking particularly about a few people who pronunce their own name differently depending on setting - stressing different syllables (or adding stress where they normally wouldn't use it) to make the name clearer in formal settings.





> Okay, let me try this again. A translation is when instead of using the word the other language is using for a concept you use one your language has. A loanword is when your language does not have a word for that concept so you "loan" one from another tongue that does. The words "human" and "people" are synonimous in English so I used "people" instead of "humans" because else that would have been confusing. The galactic civilisation didn't have a word for twi'lek until they met twi'leks because they didn't have a concept of twi'leks before and since that word is not Basic, it is most likely a loanword from one of the twi'lek languages. If one tried to translate the word the twi'lek used to refer to themselves in basic, they'd have to map that to a concept that already exists in Basic. What did the twi'lek mean when said twi'lek before meeting the galactic civilisation? They meant "beings like us" i.e. people.


We have named people from mars martians despite not meeting them and them likely not existing - I see no reason to assume that the galactic civilisation didn't name the twi'leks (or get a name from some other race) prior to meeting them and learning their language.

If we as people met an alien race they likely would have already named our star system and planet in their charts and have given us a name - we might then say the translation for that name they are using for us in english would be 'humans' or 'earthlings' or somesuch.

Edit: To make a Star Wars example 'Wookiee' does not seem to be a shyriiwook word (and presumedly not either of their other two languages that I did not know existed).

----------


## Fyraltari

> I am thinking particularly about a few people who pronunce their own name differently depending on setting - stressing different syllables (or adding stress where they normally wouldn't use it) to make the name clearer in formal settings.


Ill sorry what?







> We have named people from mars martians despite not meeting them and them likely not existing


No, thats not what martian mean. It means of Mars. If a man and a dog settled on Mars wed call them martians but theyd still be a man and a dog. Likewise a twilek that lives on Tatooine (like Jabbas Butler) would be both a Tatooinian and a twilek. And the characters from that last episodes are both twilek and Rylothians because twilek is the name of the species.



> I see no reason to assume that the galactic civilisation didn't name the twi'leks (or get a name from some other race) prior to meeting them and learning their language.


Wether the word twilek comes from their own language or from a neigbourings people does not change anything.

There are billion of stars in the SW galaxy and hundreds of species, they are not going to name every single rock unless theres a reason to. And why not use the names the people there already have.



> Edit: To make a Star Wars example 'Wookiee' does not seem to be a shyriiwook word (and presumedly not either of their other two languages that I did not know existed).


Shryiiwook is not pronounceable by humans, do of course they had to find a way.

Youll note that twilek is not a Basic word because (unlike tail-head which has the exact same meaning) its not translated in English.

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## dancrilis

> IÂll sorry what?


I'm not sure what you are asking here - I know people who pronounce their own names differently in different settings.

To use your forum name as an example 'Fyraltari' lets imagine that this might be properly pronounced 'Fee-RAL-tar-I' you might use that in a formal setting to insure that it was correctly and clearly understood rather then some other similar name, on the other hand in a social situation with your friends you might go with 'Fee-real-tar-e' because you just find it easiler and have been using it for decades or it is how your family normally pronounces it.
You could then switch between them based on mood and situations.




> Wether the word twiÂlek comes from their own language or from a neigbouringÂs people does not change anything.


Whether it is a loan word from the twi'lek changes and if it was created in galactic basic then it is a created word in galactic basic which could be translated back to Twi'lek - unless we know the full language background then we don't know how the word came to be.




> There are billion of stars in the SW galaxy and hundreds of species, they are not going to name every single rock unless thereÂs a reason to. And why not use the names the people there already have.


If they think they are going to make contact with a new species they have reason to name that species - similiarly if they are going to enter an unexplored area of space they have reason to name things in that space. There are plenty of uninhabited (or near uninhabited) rocks that have names in Star Wars.




> Shryiiwook is not pronounceable by humans, do of course they had to find a way.


Han Solo in the Solo movie speaks a bit of it to memory
Also the twi'lek languages includes sign language using the lekku (head tails) - so it would not be pronounceable to other species without such.

Is it possible it is a from the twi'lek language (or some other language) sure - but I see no reason to assume it was not merely created in Basic (and I suppose no reason to think it was either).

----------


## Fyraltari

Sorry for the dealy, folks, week-end was tad more eventful than what I planned for.

*Season 1, Episode 21: Liberty on Ryloth*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Well, Anakin cleared the skies and Obi-Wan took a landing ground which means it's Windu's job to take the capital apprently. We're told that Obi-Wan took the whole Southern Hemishpere in-between episodes and when Windu takes the capital city of Lassu the whole planet will be freed of Separatist presence. Somehow. I mean, it's still more battles per planet than _Empire at War_ but it always amuse me how small pla,ets seem to be in Star Wars. Anyway Windu isn't off to a great start as his column is bogged down on some narrow mountain pass being shelled by droid cannons. Windu's heavy armour transports are lost so he breaks out some tiny-teensie cutie one-man chicken walkers and outmaneuvers the droids. However without his tank force he does not feel confident in his ability to take Lassu and decides to meet with some local freedom fighters. he tells so to Obinakin as well as Palpatine and Ryloth's Senator Orn Free Tah. Tah is worried that the head of said fighters, Cham Syndulla, is going to want to take power for himself. Windu says he's here to free Ryloth, what happens next, he leaves to the twi'lek to decide.

Meanwhile Watt Tambor and a random tactical droid are holographically meeting with Dooku. He tells them to pack their **** and leave. The droid wants to but Tambor wants to saty and pillage some more. Oh yeah, turns out he's only here to get some sweet loot. That's... peculiarly uninteresting. By the way, the same dialog between Tambor and the droid about him telling him to get a move on and Tambor not wanting to happens a couple times so I'm not sure if it started here but anyway I'm not repeating it. Tambor is using the twi'lek population of the city as hostage because that worked so well last time. But there's a twist, Dooku tells him that befor ehe leaves he should have his remaining fighter droids bomb as many civilian centers as possible to show the galaxy "the price of a Republic Victory". I'm not sure propaganda works that way, but okay.

Windu and a handful of clones arrive at a place that would be completely undifferantiable from the rest of teh planet if it weren't for some big cairns. Windu explains that the freedom fighters got slaughtered there at the beginning of the invasion (how he knows this, I don't know) so he figure they'll be back to pay their respects. A droid patrol shows up and Wondu elects to hide. One B1 picks up the head of another one killed some time ago and recognize him. they mock that B1 for being an earlier model that relied on a central computer _Phantom Menace_ style "unlike us! We're independant thinkers!
-Roger, roger.
-Roger, roger.
-Roger, roger."
Okay that made me laugh. The droids get cut down by the resitance fighters and we are introduced to Syndulla. He's got a very noticeable French accent. It's not as bad as the other times because he's presented positively but still, I'm not a fan. Cham isn't very fond of the Jedi and the Republic at large but he welcomes the ennemies of his ennemies in his stronghold. There's a lot of civilian there under the protection of his little army. As he enters he hugs a little yellow twi'lek girl (either he's popular enough that random children hug him or hera changed colour during puberty. I mean she might have, I used to be a blonde when a was a wee lad). Syndulla asks Windu if the republic intends to leave troops after the separatist are driven off. Windu says that yes, for a time thinking it will confort him. Quite the opposite Syndulla then wonders how long it will take before he will have to take arms agaisnt them then. Oh, Cham, you have no idea. He also doesn't like Tah at all, thinking he is a coward who hides in Coruscant so Mace's track record does not improve.

Cut to some clone spotting a surprise Vulture droid attack, they brace for the shock and discover that the target was the nearby city now in flames. they report to their superior and a video-conference is quicky created to bring everyone up to speed. Inlcuding Windu. Who is in th emiddle of a feast. Mass murder has a way to kill the mood of just _any_ party. Anakin is immediately ordered to track and shoot down the bombers. Cham reconsiders and agrees to talk to Tah and Palpatine. They come to the agreement that the Republic and the freedom fighters will work together in eXchange for Cham's promise not to stage a coup. Which he had no intention to do in the first place. So everybody is just going to do what they were going to do anyway. Hooray for diplomacy?

Lassu is protected by a huge circular ravine. The only way in is a plasm-bridge that can be turned on and off and that the Separatists promptly turn off sending one of their droids falling to its death. Windu and Co have to fidn a stratagem to get the bridge on so they can cross Also they can' tshoot at the city because of all the twi'lek forced 'round the walls. You know what woudl be really useful, right now? Some kind of flying machines that could carry people in it maybe with some sliding doors on the side. Oh and guns to. A ship-gun if you will. To bad the good guys don't have any of those. Watt Tambor is finally agreeing to leave but then is told the last caravan of precious booty is arriving so he has the bridged turned on. Windu and friends spot the caravan and deiced to slip in so they cn take over the commands of the bridge. Cham warns them the caravn will be scanned. Windu and two clones jump on a transport, make a hole in the roof and go in. Once at the middle of the bridge, two droids with metal detector-like devices scan the transports and spot the intruders. Windu and the clones fight the droids nearby but the bridge is turned off under their feet. What was the plan exactly? Windu forces pushes the two clones to safety before landing on a droid jetbike, wrestling control of it, shooting down the other jetbikes and crahslanding on the ground. AOkay that was badass. The rest of the twi'lek/clone army charges. Better hope they turn the bridge on in time guys, because you won't have time to stop. Also one clone is riding a local mount instead of his bike because a twi'lek who told him they were fatser (highly dubious) raced him earlier. Character development, I guess?

The tactical droid deemed Tambor a lost cause and leaves in his shuttle leaving Tambor pretty pissed. The dorid tells Dooku Tambot didn't make it an dDooku tels him to have all remaining bombers target Lassu. He does.
Windu and the clones go isnde the city. A whole bunch of droids attack so Windu satys behind to fight them while the two clones head to the control room. The droids there are as inept as you would guess but some commando droids (what are they doing here?) get ther to give the clones a proper fight. The bridge is turned on just in time and Cham and the boys get in while the civilian cheer. Windu corners Tambor and tells him to surrender. Tambor asks what terms of surrender would be acceptable. "Unconditional" answers Cham. Tambor points to the appraoching bombers and says he won't surrender because they're all going to die anyway. Anakin and Ahsoka show up out of nowher and shoot the bombers down telling each other (and us) that these were the last. Tambor gets back to surrendering.
Last scene is Orn Free Tah arriving on Ryloth and decalring it a free world.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

This is no great episode. It's not bad either but all it has got going is some decent action. It tries to have a "reconcialition of old ennemies" plot but since we know neither Tah nor Syndulla and their only problem was apprently bad communciation it doesn't really work. Besides episode 13 already did a better job of it.
I feel like the tactical droid should have been the captain from two episodes ago. I did a little digging and apparently the captain surviving was  alast minute decision becaus ethey thought th character had potential. Iguess they ahd already made too much of the next episodes to plug him in anywhere. But my digging also told me he never reappred so they probably just forgot. Which can only means that he's still floating in his escape pod as Rey buries lightaber on Tatooine.

Why was Watt Tambo in this? He had no personnality in the movies beyond "Separatist leader" so they decided he was a greedy idiot and left him at that, given us a Nute Gunray somehow even less threatening. He's the leader of the Techno-Union, couldn't you have made him a normal an evil engineer? With actual plans for th eplanet we spent three episodes on/around beyond "pillage"? And frankly a _second_ Separatist leader getting captured even though he's free by RoS? Are just going to repeat Gunray'evasion with a character we care even less about? Why?

Also is it just me or was the animation quite bad in this episode? Something felt wrong with Cham's face but I couldn't pinpoint what exactly. and Tambor's robe did not behave like a robe at all more like a slab of rock sliding on soap.

----------


## Dargaron

In the case of Ryloth, it's somewhat justified that they can take the entire planet in relatively few battles: Ryloth has a day side and a night side, and virtually all Twi'lek cities are in the very thin twilight zone (cue intro music) between them. So while the planet itself is regular sized, the actual area that's worth fighting over is quite small.

----------


## hamishspence

> As he enters he hugs a little yellow twi'lek girl (either he's popular enough that random children hug him or hera changed colour during puberty. I mean she might have, I used to be a blonde when a was a wee lad)


Apparently Pablo confirmed that the TCW Twi'lek girl he hugs isn't Hera, in a Rebels Recon episode.


https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Hera_Syndulla

----------


## Fyraltari

> In the case of Ryloth, it's somewhat justified that they can take the entire planet in relatively few battles: Ryloth has a day side and a night side, and virtually all Twi'lek cities are in the very thin twilight zone (cue intro music) between them. So while the planet itself is regular sized, the actual area that's worth fighting over is quite small.


Except that the lighting looks nothing like dawn/twilight in theses episodes, so either that's been retconned or the twi'lek are just fine living on the sunny side.



> Apparently Pablo confirmed that the TCW Twi'lek girl he hugs isn't Hera, in a Rebels Recon episode.
> 
> 
> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Hera_Syndulla


Ah.

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## Dargaron

> Except that the lighting looks l=nothing like dwan/twilight in theses episodes, so either that's been retconned or the twi'lek are jsut fine living on the sunny side.


You're right: apparently it's been retconned under Disney Star Wars. Now Ryloth is just generic alien planet #42. Yay, I guess?

----------


## Fyraltari

> You're right: apparently it's been retconned under Disney Star Wars. Now Ryloth is just generic alien planet #42. Yay, I guess?


I mean, it wasn't the most original of concept either. we used to think Mercury was like that for once.

----------


## Peelee

I've been rewatching _Avatar: The Last Airbender_ and wishing Lucas had been able to get Michael Dante DiMartino, Bryan Konietzko, and Aaron Ehasz to be showrunners for TCW. Think of the things we could have had - consistency! Competent enemies! Decent world building! Plots that make sense!

But I dream... I dream.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I've been rewatching _Avatar: The Last Airbender_ and wishing Lucas had been able to get Michael Dante DiMartino, Bryan Konietzko, and Aaron Ehasz to be showrunners for TCW. Think of the things we could have had - consistency! Competent enemies! Decent world building! Plots that make sense!
> 
> But I dream... I dream.


Alright, alright, I'll watch that show. Once I'm done with this, _The Witcher_, _Wakfu_, _Harley Quinn_ and, most likely, this year's season of _Doctor Who_.

Oh and:

Worldbuing? Consistency? In _Star Wars_? Get out of here, man!

----------


## Peelee

> Alright, alright, I'll watch that show.


Hooray!



> Once I'm done with this, _The Witcher_, _Wakfu_, _Harley Quinn_ and, most likely, this year's season of _Doctor Who_.


Boo! 



> Worldbuing? Consistency? In _Star Wars_? Get out of here, man!


Hey, it's worth a shot.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Hey, it's with a shot.


I dont understand this sentence.

----------


## dancrilis

> I dont understand this sentence.


I believe it might be 'Hey, it's worth a shot'.

Unless I am missing a reference.

----------


## Peelee

> I dont understand this sentence.


That's because it was unintelligible. 



> I believe it might be 'Hey, it's worth a shot'.
> 
> Unless I am missing a reference.


Aye, fixed now.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

I kind of miss the early seasons. *Spoiler: stuff that happens later*
Show

 There were more varying antagonists, and less endless Anakin/Dooku and Obi/Maul duels. But I could be misremembering

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 1, Episode 22: Hostage Crisis* a.k.a. the finale of the first season.


Really? We're ending on this? Why?

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Anyway, we are told the infamous duro bounty hunter Cad Bane is on Coruscant and has gathered together a crew for his nefarious ends. I know this guy, I've seen clips of him on the Internet but he wasn't on the pilot movie was he? Because the episode seem to treat him like a houshold name, like I should already know how dangerous he is. which is weird. Anyway. Bane's craft lands on the Senate parking lot and Senate Guards tell him nd his gang to sod off but Bane's sniper take them out. The Bounty Hunter has two commando droid impersonnate the guards (they pretend to have been shooting at war protestors which I guess is business as usual near the Senate). These droids barely feature in the episode which confuses the hell out of me because because of them I operated under the assumption the hunters were hired by the Separatists but it doesn't seem so so that's weird (and make their actions that more reckless). Bane's crew enters the building. There's him, the two commando, a female sniper (whose design I had already seen, and a quick Qwant search told me her name was Aurra Sing), a weequay (so Hondo's policy of _not_ getting involved in politics is a cultural thing?), a couple IG droids and a diminutive fish man. Taking on what ought to be the most secure place in the galaxy.

We cut to Padmé's office. She's with Anakin who has a two weeks' leave and so thinks she should take some vacation too so that they could go to a place no-one will recognize them, away from the war and the politics to be husband and wife. Cute, this show continues to make a better job than the prequels at what they were trying to do. She says she's got to much important work. He asks her if the Republic is more important to her than their love and says that, in his eyes, nothing goes before their love. _Nothing_. Careful, Ani, your Vader is showing (even if it's more AotC whiny-Anakin-Vader than Vader-Vader). He then tells her how Obi-Wan told him his lightsaber was his life once he finished his and hands it to her. That's supposed to be a romantic gesture, but, frankly, I'm not sure what letting her handle his phallic symbol for thirty seconds is going to prove. IT's not like he can give it to her and she seems to find the whole situation more awkward than anything. This is _not_ helped by her good friend Bail Organa barging in (knock, man!) leaving only enough time for Anakin to hide under Padmé's desk and for her to hide his sabre behind her back. He tells her they've got to go to this super-duper meeting right this instant and they leave. Wow, a plot device to separate Anakin from his slightsaber, I did not see that coming. [pikachu face]. It pains me to know that he will never invest in a hand-strap.

Meanwhile Bane and his crew made their way to whatever the place where guard changes is called and toss a grenade at them, somehow taking out every single senate Guard in the building without setting off one thousand alarms at once. Also one guard beg Sing for his life and she kills him, And then she didn't wash her hands, because she's eviiiiiiil. How did they even get that far? How did they even know the security's schedule and itinerary, not to mention the layout of the place? Bugger if I know. God the security is terrible. Aquaguy then gets to work on the power grid and is told to shut down the whole thing. Again without triggerring an emergency response from the GAR, somehow. Padmé, Bail and 3PO are meeting with some more Seanators (including Senator Chichu from Pantoria and Padmé's rodian uncle. I think. I thought the guy was the head of state of Rodia, not the Senator) in the atrium to discuss how to stop Palplatine's upcoming Enhanced Privacy Invasion bill (I hope that's what the opponents are calling it because else I'd be disappointed in Sidious' manipulating skills). I think Filoni and Co had a couple things in mind when they thought of that law, but politics. Bane and his henchmen enter and take everybody hostage. Padmé starts planning a afight until Organa reminds her they don't have weapons. One gran Senator utterly fails to read the room and tries to leave. Bane shoots him dead. You know between this and the Jar Jar episode I think Malastare's next Senator is going to have trouble finding a life-insurance policy. Orn Free Tah, having apparently read the script enters Palpatine's office and patches him to Bane who says that he has control of the east wing of the building and that if Palpatine wants to see his Senators alive again, he'll have to agree to his demands. So what great and terrible mission is the bounty hunter on? What prize is grand enough to risk attacking the heart of the Galactic Republic herself, no doubt making him the most wanted criminal in the Galaxy? To free Ziro the Hutt.





To. Free. Ziro. The Hutt. Z.I.R.O. .T.H.E. .H.U.T.T. *screams into pillow* Jabba's pink effeminate incompetent uncle with a shrill voice.
Why? Why are you bringing this guy back? Were you so confident in the charcater you literally called a Zero? Was the pilot movie, such a smashing success that you had to bring him back for the first season finale? What went on? What is the rationale behind this decision?



So, moving on, Palpatine tells Bane the obvious: the Republic isn't going to take his crap laying down. this makes him rant like a maniac proclaiming he has complete control just as the man from Innsmouth shuts the power down. This locks Palpatine in his office (the hacker triggered the security system) with Orn Free Tah (Tah's presence and his general not-being in danger in this situation are probably why he doesn't go full Sith on the interlopers). This also signals Anakin's that something very bad is going on. Naturally he decides to _Die Hard_ the **** out of this situation rather than use his wrist-mounted communicator to ask for help. Not that it would help as Palapatine tries to call in the Jedi but Bane is apparently scrambling all communication from the Senate. Which nobody seems to notice. Also, I guess Palpatine was trying to stay in character when he called the Jedi but I would have assumed he'd go for a platoon of clones. The bounty hunters search the Senators for communication devices which propmts Amidalal to tell Organa she's got something they mustn't find. Anakin made his way to the atrium just as Bane is creeping on PAdmé (guess he likes them with hair, visible pupils and not blue). Bane shoots at him and recognize him (let me guess, anachronic order?) which forces him to flee. Bane sends the Weequay and one IG droid after him. Now he tries to call for help but to no avail (why did they want the senator's communcation devices then?) and hides in an office. The Weequay finds a female-looking droid in an office and leeaves her alone. Random. Slywalker takes his communicator apart and plugs it into a big desk thingie which lets him talk to Palpatine. Nice, I like when they show his mecanic side. Palpatine explains that it's up to him since no-one can get in and that he must go to the control room and turn the power on. The bounty hunters overhear the conversation and barge in just after he's hidden and the Jedi mind tricks the weequay into leaving without beeing seen, huh, so they can do that. Also why not mind trick him into dropping his gun as he leaves?

The two bounty hunters separate, the weequay goes upstair an the droid downstair. Anakin, alone and weaponless is  faced with a choice. What would you do in his place? A) Leave and find another way to the control room. B) Take on the guy you know he can mind control. C) Take on the literal killing machine with your bare hands. D) Obi-Wan Kenobi. If you've answered C) then congratulations! You just might have what it takes to make it as a general of the Grand Army of the Republic! Somehow punching metal works gret for Ani who manages to clobber the droid's head with its own gun (rendered unusable by the droid bending the canon) and flees before the weequay gets there. Oh come on you could have beaten that guy! Just force push him down the stairs, it's like you've never played _JEdi Knight_. the weequay notices the abscence of lightsabre cuts on his late partener and informs Bane that the Jedi has lost his weapon. bane sends Sing and the weequay after him. Padmé tells Organa she has the sabre, dodges the question of how that happened and ask him if he thinks they should use it themselves or try to find a way to give it back to its owner. Before he can answers, Bane orders everybody to piepe down and calls Palpatine again. He wants him to make a pardon disk for Ziro, give it to Tah who will be taken to collet the hutt and, once Ziro is with him, he'll release the hostages. Why didn't he say all that last time?

On his side of things, John McClane found the control room but the hackers retreats inside of it as he sees him and as he tries to open it, Sing and the weequay attack him. More precisely, the weequay points his gun at him, he Furce pulls it in his hand (see? you could have done that earlier) but Sing shoots him out and the hacker opens the door and tazes him while he's distracted. They cuff him and bring him to Bane who taunts him about how unimpressive he is without his saber (gotta side with the bounty hunter here, Anakin really should invest more skill points in his Force Powers) and has him tossed with the Senators. The remaining IG fetches Tah who is nhappy to have been picked (I thought you'd be glad to be leaving the hostage situation, but hey you do you) And Palpatine creepily tells him everybody's got a job to do. They fly to the prison where apparently they've been warned in advance (seriously? By who? The terrorists or the people trapped with no communication devices) since they co-operate with the one droid pointing a gun at a Senator and have already brought Zero the Hutt for realease. He complains that the sun is too bright and they should have done that at night. I hope somebody kills him fast. IG and him leaves. Ziro wants to head to the Outer Rim immediately, but IG is ordered to rendez-vous at the Senate so that's where they're going. Bane puts some bombs arounf the Senators and the Jedi which creates a laser cage, if they touch the lasers they go boom. Cad Bane then calls Palpatine and says he's leaving, if the pursuit starts before nightfall the Senators die. The bounty hunters leave. At the same moment troopers sent by Orn Free tah arrive and "rescue" the Chancellor, see, was it that hard? They confront the bounty hunters but they have to let htem go becaus eof the bombs. They all leave with Ziro. And then Bane decides to trigger the explosives anyways *before*  he's even reached his spacesship because he's not very bright. Anakin wakes up with the senators and almost blows his and Padmé's cover because he sucks at the secret lovers thing. She claims to have found his lightsabre where he "dropped it". And he cuts a hole in th efloor just as the bombs go off. The explosion is big enough to make a hole in the roof of the twenty-meter tall atrium and create a huge column of smoke but not big enough to harm the people one level down with a big hole in the roof/floor. Go figures. Padmé congratulates Skywalker on another daring rescue while Cad Bane demands to be paid.

We end the season on that note.




*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

So first off, that the finale is not the conclusion of a three/four-parter epic about a Separatis grand plan or Sidious manipulation the Jedi somehow is baffling to me. Why would we care about these thugs (seriously, they're not bounty hunters, they're hired guns) springing this third-rate villain from prison?

Second, Cad Bane doesn't really strike me as a mastermind here, his plan isn't too shoddy but his sudden burst of random supervillainy really undersell his air of professionalism. Not to mention that apparently he wasn't hired by someone like who could protect him from the fallout of this Dooku or even the Hutt Cartels but just decided to free Ziro on his won and expects him to pay him. The shows wants me to fear him, but meh.

Ziro, thankfully, had very little screentime.

Anakin getting separated from his saber was such a plot contrivance it hurts. I hope later season have Organa having figured out that PAdmé and him are together so that somehing comes out of it.


That being said, it was a fun episode, nothing was egregiously bad and I hope Bane shows up again (with a more sensible plan). This is the only episode so far without the Separatists as the villains which is an intersting variation. I just wish it wasn't the finale.



Soooo, that's it for season then. I'll make a season-wide rumble on my thoughts about the show so far tomorrow and then get o with season 2. What do you think of the reviews so far? Should I summarize more or be more precise? Analyse more? Do more jokes? Be more mindful of typos? get a coherent sleep schedule? Any and all feedback is welcome.

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## Peelee

> To. Free. Ziro. The Hutt. Z.I.R.O. .T.H.E. .H.U.T.T. *screams into pillow* Jabba's pink effeminate incompetent uncle with a shrill voice.
> Why? Why are you bringing this guy back? Were you so confident in the charcater you literally called a Zero? Was the pilot movie, such a smashing success that you had to bring him back for the first season finale? What went on? What is the rationale behind this decision?


Fun fact! I always joked about Ziro the Hutt sounding like Truman Capote, until I discovered that Ziro originally sounded like every other Hutt but Lucas came on set and specifically told them "make him sound like Truman Capote", so it became less of a joke for me and more a sad fact of life. Anyway. Lucas loves Ziro the Hutt.

I feel the need to reiterate my massive lack of sadness that George Lucas is largely uninvolved in executive decisions in Star Wars now.

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## Fyraltari

> Fun fact! I always joked about Ziro the Hutt sounding like Truman Capote, until I discovered that Ziro originally sounded like every other Hutt but Lucas came on set and specifically told them "make him sound like Truman Capote", so it became less of a joke for me and more a sad fact of life. Anyway. Lucas loves Ziro the Hutt.
> 
> I feel the need to reiterate my massive lack of sadness that George Lucas is largely uninvolved in executive decisions in Star Wars now.


...

The mind of George Lucas is a strange place, indeed.

I don't know who Truman Capote is but I apparently already know too much about the man for my liking.

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## Peelee

> ...
> 
> The mind of George Lucas is a strange place, indeed.
> 
> I don't know who truman Capote is but I apparently already know too much about the man for my liking.


Famous American author/celebrity author. Openly gay in a time where being openly gay was generally not helpful, to say the least, and managed to maintain his popularity and fame, which is monumentally impressive. Other than that, though, I'm not a fan.

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## dancrilis

> To. Free. Ziro. The Hutt. Z.I.R.O. .T.H.E. .H.U.T.T. *screams into pillow* Jabba's pink effeminate incompetent uncle with a shrill voice.
> Why? Why are you bringing this guy back?


Diversity?




> What do you think of the reviews so far?


I like them.




> Lucas loves Ziro the Hutt.


Are you sure that isn't just because he hates Star Wars? (or possibly just likes annoying the fans).




> I feel the need to reiterate my massive lack of sadness that George Lucas is largely uninvolved in executive decisions in Star Wars now.


It is not as if him not being present has made things better - it has just spread the bad around.
So where you used to have a big pile of fecal matter sitting in the corner in the form of Ziro or Jar-Jar - now you have the same amount of fecal matter but it is spread over everything.

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## Fyraltari

> Diversity?


I mean, I'm hardly qualified to judge that but in that cse: bwuh?





> I like them.


Nice! Thank you.

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## Peelee

> I'll make a season-wide rumble on my thoughts about the show so far tomorrow and then get o with season 2. What do you think of the reviews so far? Should I summarize more or be more precise? Analyse more? Do more jokes? Be more mindful of typos? get a coherent sleep schedule? Any and all feedback is welcome.


Didn't see this at first, since I generally skim and look for the non-description-of-what-happens parts. Which leads me to my two cents, I'd prefer less shot-by-shot description and more analysis, thoughts & feelings, and impressions. 



> It is not as if him not being present has made things better - it has just spread the bad around.


Eh, I'm not sure I agree. The prequel trilogy was a more stuffy formal, Lawful disjointed mess where the second movie could probably have been dropped altogether except for a couple of scenes which impacted the third, while the sequel trilogy was a more loose, casual, Chaotic disjointed mess where the second movie could probably have been dropped altogether except for a couple of scenes which impacted the third. So all in all, they were in the same spirit. Solo was an unnecessary but potentially good idea, just remarkably poorly executed, similar to how The Clone Wars film was an unnecessary but potentially good idea, just remarkably poorly executed. Rogue One was flat-out good... and hey, I've run out of stuff to compare, so score one for Disney there.

And, since I'm just exploring the movies here, Disney actually decided to go ahead and make more, so there's another point in their favor. I'm not thrilled with how they've (grossly mis)handled things so far, but at least they're _moving_, which is more than I could say for Lucas when he was in control.

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## Fyraltari

> Didn't see this at first, since I generally skim and look for the non-description-of-what-happens parts. Which leads me to my two cents, I'd prefer less shot-by-shot description and more analysis, thoughts & feelings, and impressions.


I'll try but a lot of episodes so far are kinda bland. I often felt the nned to type "There's not much to say about this one." There seems to be more of a focus on action than charcter development or worldbuilding.

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## Peelee

> I'll try but a lot of episodes so far are kinda bland. I often felt the nned to type "There's not much to say about this one." There seems to be more of a focus on action than charcter development or worldbuilding.


I agree, and won't mind at all if you disregard my opinion due to that.

However, I suspect I'll be able to read your Avatar TLA watchthrough with the _utmost_ enjoyment.  :Small Wink: 

You should get through the intervening shows on your list fast.

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## Fyraltari

> I agree, and won't mind at all if you disregard my opinion due to that.
> 
> However, I suspect I'll be able to read your Avatar TLA watchthrough with the _utmost_ enjoyment. 
> 
> You should get through the intervening shows on your list fast.


 :Small Amused:  You know, I _might_ do just that.

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## Peelee

......... andthenyoushouldwatchthemovie

[_ducks for cover from those who have seen the movie_]

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## dancrilis

> ......... andthenyoushouldwatchthemovie
> 
> [_ducks for cover from those who have seen the movie_]


Or perhaps watch the movie first ...

I mean _maybe_ the movie is better if you haven't seen the series first?

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## Jasdoif

> Just force push him down the stairs, it's like you've never played _JEdi Knight_.


_Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II_ did not have Force Push, much to my annoyance since the game _loved_ the vertical heights its excessive jumping "puzzles" called for.  I have to use this otherwise-useless trivia when I can....




> The terrorists or the people trapped with no communication devices) since they co-operate with the one droid pointing a gun at a Senator and have already brought Zero the Hutt for realease. He complains that the sun is too bright and they should have done that at night. I hope somebody kills him fast.


*Spoiler: Later seasons*
Show

Sorry, it's a bit past midway through the third season.  But you _do_ get to see the blaster holes still glowing before he falls over!





> That being said, it was a fun episode, nothing was egregiously bad and I hope Bane shows up again (with a more sensible plan).


This is the probably the best of the extra-Senate-y episodes.

And, *Spoiler: Later seasons*
Show

Bane does show up again, multiple times.  He's even pivotal to a four-episode-arc later on.





> I often felt the nned to type "There's not much to say about this one." There seems to be more of a focus on action than charcter development or worldbuilding.


They get better at doing both as the series goes on, thankfully.  The last...wait, it's not the last season anymore, is it...season *five* in particular is composed entirely of multi-episode arcs, if you overlook that one of them actually had its "intro" episode split off to open the season with (George Lucas thought it was a good idea....); and makes good use of the extra time for character/world development that allows.

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## Peelee

> Or perhaps watch the movie first ...
> 
> I mean _maybe_ the movie is better if you haven't seen the series first?


I just finished my series rewatch on Sunday, tried to find Legend of Korra, and on that failure, discovered the movie is in Netflix, and gave it a go, expecting to have fun just mocking it.

I will theorize that no, watching it without seeing the series first would not help. It's not just bad, it's _aggressively_ bad. And I think that seeing it with no show context would just be confusing for the most part, along with spoiling the entire first season despite managing to skip over the vast majority of it, and instill a desire to just not watch the show. I was shocked when I found out Shyamalan was the one who pushed to make it into a movie after watching with his kids, because not ten minutes into it, I would have sworn it was made by someone who not only didn't watch the series, but only heard about it from a friend who watched it despite not being terribly interested and probably spent some time on their phone instead.

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## dancrilis

> I was shocked when I found out Shyamalan was the one who pushed to make it into a movie after watching with his kids


... what the hell did his kids ever do to him?

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## Fyraltari

Hey forgot to put that in the review but: Despite all this ruckuss, the Senate did not update security well enough to stop fricking _Grievous_ from capturing Palpatine. No wonder he moved out to the Jedi Temple.

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## Peelee

> ... what the hell did his kids ever do to him?


I have no idea, but nothing deserving what he did to that movie.

I actually think they could have pulled off a movie series, if they did each season/book as it's own trilogy, effectively making it a 9-part movie series. That way everything could be less rushed, the character growth and world building could still come through, they could develop the primary and secondary villains of each book, and if done by anyone competent (by that point Shyamalan was known to be "absolutely not 'the next Spielberg' as predicted in 1997") could have been a cash cow for them.

When it took an entire formation of Earth benders to slowly move a rock the size of a large housecat, I openly laughed. That whole scene was patently ridiculous.

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## dancrilis

> When it took an entire formation of Earth benders to slowly move a rock the size of a large housecat, I openly laughed. That whole scene was patently ridiculous.


I had forgotten about that largely because I think I went temporarally catatonic after:



> Earthbenders! 
> ...
> There is earth right beneath your feet.


I will admit that I had forgotten the actual text and had replaced it with "Earthbenders, your in a quarry! There are rocks all around you!" I am not sure which is worse.

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## Peelee

> I had forgotten about that largely because I think I went temporarally catatonic after:
> 
> 
> I will admit that I had forgotten the actual text and had replaced it with "Earthbenders, your in a quarry! There are rocks all around you!" I am not sure which is worse.


I think making you catatonic was the intent, so you wouldn't notice thr even dumber response, which was basically "....so?"

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## Iskar Jarak

I'm enjoying the reviews as well. My preference is for analysis and feelings, but Clone Wars doesn't really lend itself to that.

As per this thread's recommendation, I watched Avatar and it was excellent. Easily the best TV series I've watched in quite a while. I was surprised to see Filoni's name pop up in the credits; turns out he did a lot of work on the first season. Mark Hamill also voices a character.

What the Avatar movie did to the series is unforgivable. It stomps the source material into mulch. I saw it before I watched the series several years ago; I can only imagine the horror of watching it after enjoying the series and expecting something good. Apparently, there's a live action series in the works, which can hardly be worse.

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## Peelee

> I'm enjoying the reviews as well. My preference is for analysis and feelings, but Clone Wars doesn't really lend itself to that.
> 
> As per this thread's recommendation, I watched Avatar and it was excellent. Easily the best TV series I've watched in quite a while. I was surprised to see Filoni's name pop up in the credits; turns out he did a lot of work on the first season. Mark Hamill also voices a character.
> 
> What the Avatar movie did to the series is unforgivable. It stomps the source material into mulch. I saw it before I watched the series several years ago; I can only imagine the horror of watching it after enjoying the series and expecting something good. Apparently, there's a live action series in the works, which can hardly be worse.


They could film some cows grazing in a field as the entire live action series and it wouldn't be worse, despite having nothing to do with the source material. Also, i totally recognized Mark Hamill, but not for a good reason - he did nearly the exact same voice as he did in _Castle in the Sky_. Didn't matter, still rocked it. It's a good voice.

Also, as for Clone Wars, Fyraltari is closing in on my favorite episode, so yay! Only ten to go through before hitting it.

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## Dire_Flumph

The live-action Avatar: The Last Airbender was terrible, no doubt, and I have little faith a sequel would have been much better, but after watching "The Magicians", I will admit to being a bit curious to see Summer Bishil playing Azula.

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## Fyraltari

So Im gonna go ahead and _not_ watch that movie. Besides I have a whole separate list of movies I need to watch.




> I'm enjoying the reviews as well. My preference is for analysis and feelings, but Clone Wars doesn't really lend itself to that.


Thank you!
Ill try to keep that in mind.

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## Peelee

> So Im gonna go ahead and _not_ watch that movie.


This is my sad face. Get down here in the dumpster with the rest of us!

For reals, though. I'm 90% sure they just used the first take on, quite literally, every single scene in the movie. It's like watching a high school play that was inexplicably given a hundred million dollar budget.

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## Fyraltari

So, here are my thoughts so far.

*Spoiler: the show in general*
Show

Late season 1 is clearly better than early season 1 but it still feels very disjointed. I generally enjoy anchronistic order story telling but it doesn't really work here. See, in _Kill Bill_ for examples it's always obvious where each scene falls on the timeline but here it is not and that just makes it feel like the story is happening in a timeless status quo. By the way, the Clone War is supposed to have lasted only two and a half years so it's a wonder they manage to jam all of that in it. I hope the show becomes less "villain of week"-y and develop larger stories. There are hints of the Republic's slow turn into the Empire and Anakin's fall, these should really become more prominent.

The episodes are mostly focused on action which wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't completely impossible for 4/5 of the charcaters to actually die in this. Speaking of dying I appreciate their effort to give clones some sliver of personality before killing them off. There's a real inconstistency about how dangerous given situations are too. Sometimes a Jedi can take down twenty droids while making jokes, and sometimes two Jedi and three clones flee when confronted by twelve droids.

I feel like the Force has been seriously underutilized this season. It's _Star Wars_ most unique concept and at the very core of its identity. While Star wars stories don't necesserarily have to focus on the Force, the fact that this is leading to the fall of the Jedi Order means this show really should. I want to hear the Jedi talk about their relationship with th eForce and the dark Side, I want to know how the war affects their view of it and of their morals. I mean one of the main characters is supposed to be learning how to Jedi and she hasn't asked a single Force-realted question this entire season! It's not psychic powers, it's your mystical religion, don't treat it like a tool!

I did enjoy the effort of framing the war into the larger galactic picture. How it affects the people who aren't dashing heroes and vile villains. And underlying that war is bad, yo. More of that please.
The show is a bit too black-and-white for my liking too. There's a sentence in the opening of _Revenge of the Sith_, the second sentence in the crawl, even) that I feel was a wasted avenue in the prequels. "There are heroes on both sides". So far, every Separatist has been a cackling villain and every Republican a selfless hero. With the exception of Slicks and Argaius who both seem to have some amout of genuine appreciation for their former allies (Slicks more than Argaius, obviously). The separatists, when you think about it, despite being a fake threat led by corrupt oligarchs and space-satanists, are supposed to be fighting for an Outer Rim ignored and exploited by the human-dominated Central Government. Much like the Rebel Alliance, the heroiest heroes this franchise has to offer. There should even be some overlap between the two factions. Disney toyed with the idea in _Rebels_ and with the character of Cassian Andor (who was fighting the Empire since he was six) but never fully acknowledged it so I hope this show at least hints towards it. Inversely, It'd be good to have a Republican characters commit some atrocities, out of anti-non-human prejudice if possible. I mean I know Tarkin shows up, so there's good hopes for that.


*Spoiler: Our protagonists*
Show

So the main trio is Ashoka, Anakin and Obi-Wan even if some episodes don't have them (or barely) in it (which is a good thing by th eway, let's give some love to some minor characters). But the mainest character is Anakin. He is Obi-Wan's former apprentice, Ahsoka's master, Padmé's husband and the theoretical main charcater of the prequels. His dynamic with Obi-Wan was alright I guess with the exception of the one episode they seem friendly though we're still a bit far from "You were my brother!" His relationship with Ahsoka is good but is mostly potential for now. By all mean he should be a pretty terrible teacher of the Jedi ways. They leaned on that in Jasdoif's favourite episode so far, with his bit "of hypocrisy regarding obeying orders. I hope they do more of that. His relationship with Padmé is better than in the Prequels. The opposite would be shocking. But there isn't much to go on yet. they need to emphasize the strain that secrecy is on them (and the war obviously).

There's not much to say about Obi-Wan, of our three protagonist he's the one not allowed any character development since he is identical in RotS and AotC. He seems even snarkier than I remember though. Still there's some untapped potential here. What's his relationship with Ahsoka? How aware is he of Anakin's marriage? Of his descent into darkness? He can do more than just be Mr. Perfect Jedi.

Let's talk Ahsoka. I like her much more than I did back when I thought she epitomized everything wrong with the pilot movie. But then again, I like to think 24-year old Fyraltari is somewhat more mature and postive a person than 13-year-old Fyraltari. _Somewhat_. As the OC she has much more freedom to evolve than any of her counterparts. I mean, they could have her fall to the dark Side! They could have her die! They didn't, but they could. And besides, **** has to go down for her not to be in RoS. The obvious direction for her to go is to start questionning the Jedi teaching seeing as she is Anakin's Padawan and, well, leading a war is about as far as "A Jedi only uses the Force in defense. Never to attack" as one can be. I'm optimistic about her. I like that they made her be buddy buddy with Plo Koon. I hope we see more of that.

Padmé is there I guess? Like Obi she can't change because her AotC personnality is still there by RotS. Besides her relationship for Anakin, I find her most natural role is in th political Arena, she needs to be the one charcater (plus y'know Organa and Mothma) who notices what the republic is turnign into and tries to stop it. I mean, it is in character for her to try to make peace with the Separatists but it's not gonna happen. Oh and what does she think of Anakin's relationship with Palpatine? There's material there.

The Clones: giving them unique personnalities is a great idea. I want to see more of Rex and Cody. What are there plans for when the war is over? Do they even think that far in the future? And of course, their conflicting loyalties between the government of the Republic, the people of th eRepublic and the Jedi. More of that, pretty please. And of course the whole slave-army bred to die thing.

Yoda. Was barely there except for that godawful first episode. Please give him something to do. But not on the front lines. As the Jedi Grandmaster he should be co-ordinating the war effort on the galactic scale and investigating Sith Plots.

Windu. Prequel Windu was a waste of a perfectly functionning Sam Jackson. He had one cool fight scene and that was basically it. His episode there was a lot of that too. They should play up his distrust of Skywalker. Make him the one guy Anakin clashes with the most. That way Yoda gets to be all wise and stuff and Obi-Wan all friendly. Besides Windu is the first Jedi Anakin kills so...

Yularen. Yularen being here is an interesting choice. His big moment so far was trusting in Ahsoka. But Yularen will become the Imperial spymaster and will one day sit at a table on the Death Star listening as he hears the Senate has been disolved (probably literally) and, you know, _not_ be outraged years after his Jedi buddies have been declared traitors. since he doesn't seem to harbour any anti-non-human prejudice, so I guess he is a _Befehl sind Befehl_ kind of guy. I hope we get to see how far that mindset goes with him carrying out some questionnable orders unquestionnably. And see how his buddy Ahsoka reacts to that.




*Spoiler: Our villains*
Show

Sidious didn't do much this season, did he? Obviously he can't go rounf leading battles and dueling Jedi to the death (he's got people for that) but it's time to showcase his manipulating skills. He's on a tight rope managing both the Separatists (who are led by his Sith Apprentice so he can't really trust them) and the Republic (where he's surrounded by filfthy Jedi), and, on top of that, he has to corrupt Anakin and subvert the values of the Republic. Show us how he turns Anakin against the Jedi, how he outmaneuvers Padmé and how he hides form Yoda.

Dooku. Because of his boss running two sides, Dooku is the most prominent villain and he was very underutilized in the Prequels so it's his time to shine. Being locke-up with Ani and Obi feels like it should have been more than what it ended up being, though. Why did he left the Order? What does he thinks of his Master? What did he think Sidious endgame was like (besides obviously not having his head chopped off). Why aren't his eyes yellow? The show manages to give him Sir Christopher Lee's air of dignity, which is really goog, but I'd like to see him more active. There's also a potential point of contention with Sidious in that he probably sees Ventress as a future Sith Lord when he's taken his Master's place (and he's not getting any younger) while Sidious plans for Anakin to take Dooku's place once he's done with him.

Grievous, much like Dooku he needs to have his character explored more (also he is in dire need of a win). Show him cunning, show him dangerous and tell us why he does what he does. His own episode had some hints but I'm hoping for more. What does he thinks of Dooku? Of Sidious? Does he even care what they want? Does he see Ventress as a threat to his position? Why doesn't his respirator fix his coughing fits?

Ventress is kinda evil Ahsoka, narratively speaking. As an OC she is free to evolve. And most likely die before RotS. Why does she want to be a Sith? What is her realtion to her Master? And to her Master's Master? Sidious seems to see her with contempt despite the fact that with a grand total of 1 win, she is the most competent Separatist so far. Maybe because of the whole Apprentice situation?

Nute Gunray: please no.

Watt Tambor: Either rework him or give him as little screen time as possible when you inevitably spring him out of custody. Wait. That should totally have been the finale! Picture last episode unchanged saved for Tambor in Ziro's role, Bane working for Dooku and anakin and him not knowing each other yet. That would have made the finale a four-parter and ending on the introduction of a new badass underling of Dooku. Also no Ziro which would have been a considerable plus. Which brings me to my next item.

Ziro: please no.

Cad Bane: There's postential. Have him work for Dooku and have plans tha tmake sense and they're golden.

In theory I'm all for Separatist one shot villains but basically every single one of them made melong for Grievous. This is not a compliment for Grievous's character. Pleas make some that are _actually good_ next times. I'm still not over how wasted an opportunity Tambor was. He had two defining traits: Separatist leader and tech guy. Why did they make him Gunray 2?


Also the animation is pretty good, the music is, as always*, excellent. The voice acting is great especially the Lee impersonation and the Clones having distinct but close "voices".

The little "quotes" at the beginning of each episode are really hit-and-miss though. Mostly miss. I don't know if attributing them to in-universe sources (such as Jedi texts) would make them better or worse. Using real world quote (as in _A fistful of Dynamite_ opening on a Mao quote) would probably be for the worse, though.

So yeah, that wa smy thoughts so far. Now, off to start season 2!

*That really is the one guarantee with Star Wars, isn't it? No matter how bad it gets, the writing, the acting, you know that the music will be nice.

----------


## Jasdoif

> *Spoiler: the show in general*
> Show
> 
> Late season 1 is clearly better than early season 1 but it still feels very disjointed. I generally enjoy anchronistic order story telling but it doesn't really work here. See, in _Kill Bill_ for examples it's always obvious where each scene falls on the timeline but here it is not and that just makes it feel like the story is happening in a timeless status quo. By the way, the Clone War is supposed to have lasted only two and a half years so it's a wonder they manage to jam all of that in it. I hope the show becomes less "villain of week"-y and develop larger stories. There are hints of the Republic's slow turn into the Empire and Anakin's fall, these should really become more prominent.
> 
> The episodes are mostly focused on action which wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't completely impossible for 4/5 of the charcaters to actually die in this. Speaking of dying I appreciate their effort to give clones some sliver of personality before killing them off. There's a real inconstistency about how dangerous given situations are too. Sometimes a Jedi can take down twenty droids while making jokes, and sometimes two Jedi and three clones flee when confronted by twelve droids.
> 
> I feel like the Force has been seriously underutilized this season. It's _Star Wars_ most unique concept and at the very core of its identity. While Star wars stories don't necesserarily have to focus on the Force, the fact that this is leading to the fall of the Jedi Order means this show really should. I want to hear the Jedi talk about their relationship with th eForce and the dark Side, I want to know how the war affects their view of it and of their morals. I mean one of the main characters is supposed to be learning how to Jedi and she hasn't asked a single Force-realted question this entire season! It's not psychic powers, it's your mystical religion, don't treat it like a tool!
> 
> ...


Nearly everything you said you want to see _does_ happen later.

----------


## Peelee

> Nearly everything you said you want to see _does_ happen later.


Well, not _everything_.
*Spoiler: Not a spoiler so much as a source of depression and despondency*
Show

Ziro comes back, after all.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Well, not _everything_.
> *Spoiler: Not a spoiler so much as a source of depression and despondency*
> Show
> 
> Ziro comes back, after all.


I said "nearly" and "*want* to see" for a reason....*Spoiler:* 
Show

Seeing him die gives a nice sense of closure to...whatever he was supposed to be, though!

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## Fyraltari

> Nearly everything you said you want to see _does_ happen later.


Yay!  :Small Cool: 



> I said "nearly" and "want to see" for a reason....


Nay!  :Small Yuk:

----------


## Aeson

> Ventress is kinda evil Ahsoka, narratively speaking. As an OC she is free to evolve.


Asajj Ventress isn't actually an original character for the 2008 _Clone Wars_ movie and follow-on TV series.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Asajj Ventress isn't actually an original character for the 2008 _Clone Wars_ movie and follow-on TV series.


Yes I know, she's from the 2003 series. In which she had no characterization and died. For all intents and purposes, she's an OC.

----------


## DataNinja

> Yes I know, she's from the 2003 series. In which she had no characterization and died. For all intents and purposes, she's an OC.


The important part here is that she's not tied to any particular fate, correct? So they can do whatever, and there can be actual stakes and surprise with how things go.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The important part here is that she's not tied to any particular fate, correct? So they can do whatever, and there can be actual stakes and surprise with how things go.


Precisely.

----------


## hamishspence

> Yes I know, she's from the 2003 series. In which she had no characterization and died.


She fell out of sight. However, she didn't die then (plenty  of comics set after that point in the series, used her).

Most of Ventress's  characterisation in Legends came from books and comics, rather than that series.

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## Fyraltari

> She fell out of sight. However, she didn't die then (plenty  of comics set after that point in the series, used her).
> 
> Most of Ventress's  characterisation in Legends came from books and comics, rather than that series.


As far as the show was concerned she died. Just like Sidious and Boba Fett died in RotJ. That other properties within the franchise (including this very one as I am pretty sure it was originally intended to be in-continuity) brought her back doesn't change that.

*Season 2, Episode 1: Holocron Heist*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

We open with Plo Koon leading a rescue mission as Ahsoka, Anakin and Obi-Wan are losing a battle on planet Felicia. Plo Koon powers through the Separatists fleet and brings a few gunships (these are space-worthy apparently) to Anakin and Obi-Wan's position. They're being flooded by droids and I kinda have to wonder what they're fighting for exactly, trees? Ahsoka and a group are missing as she was leading a patrol (with tanks, I might say) and she's got her own ennemy force on the run so she refuses to disengage (feels faimiliar...) despite her superiors explaining that the droids are only regrouping with their main force and that she can't take them. This forces the gunships to land in front of her, cutting her path to make them comply and witness her tanks being blown up as they leave. this whole battle feels weird, relally. They report back to the council as she is accused of insubordination. Yoda and Windu decides that a period of guard duty at the temple will be good for her. "How long? -Longer, now." Specifically she is assigned to Madame Jocasta Nu, head librarian of the Order. as she takes her on a tour of [S]Dublin Trinity College[/S ]the Jedi Archives. She explains to the Padawan that the most important secrets of the Jedi are kept into the Holocron vault wherein only memberes of the council are allowed, and so even she herself isn't. You know one who'd think that being Head Librarian of a monastic order would make you a member of the COuncil of said order but whatever Anakin and Obi-Wan start adjsting their strategy for the sector now that they've lost Felicia, but are interrupted by Yoda who has had a visoin of the future. Somebody is going to break into the Temple. The vision doesn't say who, when or what for, though, which make this vision both incredibly specific and utterly vague. This universe makes much more sense if you headcannon that the Force is a huge troll. Anakin and Obi-Wan figure the intruder will be after their war plans and codes and preapre to defend with that in mind.

Meanwhile Cad Bane is on the holophone with darth Sidoius. This seems to take place before the finale of season 1, because **** me, hence why he is on Coruscant. Sidious wants him to go steal a Jedi Holocron from the Temple. Bane initially refuses as the Temple is full of traps but Sidious can give him the complete plans of the place. Bane then agrees in exchange for three times his ususal fee (does he often work for Sidious or what?) and a warship. Bane then places an explosive inside his tech/butler droid (he pretends to be doing a check-up, claiming that the droid has had memorys lapses, which he of course doesn't remember) named Todo-somenumber I forgot who is just adorable. Bane then meets with another boutny hunter. He shows her a picture of a rodian Jedi named Bola Ropal who is their target after this job (Sidious and him probably discussed it off-screen). She's hesitant to take on the Jedi Temple but bane has the plans (and already identified a weakness within the Force fiel outside) and the dead body of a Jedi. She's of the same species as Zam wesell form AotC and so can change shapes to match the corpse (her clothes also hange and look like they're holographic. Is she actually naked?). Good that the existence of freaking changelings in SW is being put to use I gotta say. I do wonder how that perticular Jedi died without the ORder knowing about it and how sge manages to ape his presence in the Forcen though. The plan is that she will go in disguised and use a computer to deactivate the security and guide bane and Todo through the ventilation system because of course the Jedi Temple has an unnecessarily huge one.

The shapeshifter reaches the library and has to deal with a bored Ahsoka insistitng she can help with whatever Jedi business "he" has to make. After shoing her out, she helps Bane and Todo get in and eactivates the security measures (a bunch of laser). However Anakin And Obi-Wan spot that (plus Yoda has another vision telling him the break-in has begun; huge troll I tells ya!) and work out that the intruders are near the East Tower, very near the holocron vault. Obi-wan discrads the idea that they would want to steal a Holocron as one need to be a Jedi to open them. Err, you're fighting a war against a former Jedi rembemr? How is your working hypothesis _not_ that Dooku is behind this attack? However they think that the intruder may be trying to pass through the valut to their comm tower to steal their encryption protocols. The shapechanger is getting excited talking to Bane through her earpiece and Madame Jocasta arrives to tell "him" that this is a library, quiet pleas! that the Temple has just been put on high alert and "he" should get moving. The shapechanger sucker-punches the old lady (way to go Jedi reflexes!) and steal her appearance. Meanwhile Bane has reached the last door to the Vault and does some techy thing to the lock while he orders his droid to cut open a hole in the wall (feels like this should be the opposite). Anakin and Obi-Wan figure that the intruders managing to evade them must mean they have somebody inside and order Ahsoka to be on the look-out for fake Jedi.

Ahsoka discovers that Nu isn't Nu and a lightsaber fight ensues. The chnageling manages to hold her ground surprisingly long but Ahsoka beats her and forces her to confess what's going on. Bane, having lost contact with his ally decides to throw subtetly out of the window and orders Todo to go through the hole he just made to the comm center (over his objection that the place must be crawling with Jedi) and uses a bomb on the door. He hides as Anakin and Obi-Wan get in, the smoke dissimulatin th e open door, they spot the hole Todo went through and pursue as baen enters the valut and takes an Holocron. Todo reaches the comm center and meets Yoda, Windu, Secura and Fisto. He tries to awkwardly make up a story but Bane remotely triggers the bomb. It's one of those polite bombs that beep for a few dozen secodns before exploding so you can understadn what's going on. windu force pushes him in the vent right on Obi-Wan and Anakin who force-push him farther away. and he explodes. Ahsoka radios in and explains what happened. they rush to to the vault and see that one Holocron is missing. tHey wonder what Bane could ever want for one and the captured bounty hunter volunteers the info (seriously they don't even ask her in exchange for leniency at ther trial or something) that Bane's next target is Master Bola Ropal. Windu and Yoda explain that Ropal is the guardian of a special kyber crystal which details the location of some Fore-sensitive children, the future of the Order. Oh and he is a the moment unreachable as he is on the front lines. Why is a guy witht that kind of responsability on the fornt lines, exactly? Why is that crystal not stroed in your mibrabry actually? Hell why aren't those children in the Temple as younglings already even? Anyway as they are all too busy talking nobody notice Bane wearign a Jedi robe (wher'd he even find that?) leaving the Temple by the Front door. jedi security sucks, man.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

tHis was a fun opener for the season. w=It certainly introduces Bane better than last time as he's hown to be competent and, through his relationship with Todo, a douchebag. More on bane's character next time (I've already seen next episode) but I4ll say that his jet-boots are very cool.
This summary is pretty short because this is mostly an action piece and the battle at the beginning doesn't have much to do with the rest.
Anakin and Obi-wan didn't do much and I feel the episode would have been served better if Ahsoka was the main Jedi after Bane (it's not like the absence of the others would have been hard to explain what with the war and all). Also Ahsoka's behaviour at teh beginning of the episode and the lessons she learns to see the big picture is a retread of the first Ryloth Episode. We've elaready been over that, should have found another reason for her to be on guard duty. (Maybe it's an obligatory thing for every Padawan or something).

----------


## Fyraltari

Where was I? Oh, right.

*Season 2, Episode 2: Cargo of Doom*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Cad Bane has captured Master Bola Ropal off-screen (as you do) and Anakin and Ahsoka are in hot pursuit. Windu, Kenobi, Yoda, Secura and Fisto are apparently not needed for this crisis. After all this is about the future of the Jedi order, therefore these two ar clearlye the most qualified.

*Spoiler: Clearly*
Show






Anyway, Bane was given command of a Separatiste frigate* and has Brought Ropal to an interrogation room. Thre's amoment where a B1 looks intimidating. The mercenary wants the Jedi to open the Holocron. Why? Just deliver the thing to Sidious, Ventress or Dooku,  looks intimithey could open it no problem. there's no need for you to dally here.
Ropal refuses so Bane cranks up the electric torture and ignores the warnings of the droids, resulting in Ropal's death. You know I thought American children's television was more snitized than European's but a guy just got tortured to death, so apparently not. Anakin, Ahsoka and the _Resolute_ are clearly winning the battle. Yularen wants to destroy the ennemy frigate but the Jedi need to get onboard to rescue Ropal, the Holocron and the crystal. However they don't have any boarding craft. So Anakin decides to use ground vehicles to board the ennemy ship. Because these are also space-worthy for some reason. This would be more impressive if we hadn't already seen Anakin use a similar move against grievous. They literally drop the vehicles ontop of the ennemy ship (guess that bit of TLJ had precednt after all) and blast their way through. Anakin jsut added a spaceman helmet to his uniform and Ahsokah did the same, wearing a full body variation of her usual attire. Apparently whatver material the Jedi's clothes are made of is pretty isolant.

Bane meanwhile as gotten on the main bridge and is talking to Gunray. Gunray was ordered by sidious to lend the Bounty Hunter a small army and isnsits on getting it back or being reimbursed. Bane tells him that Sidious will ahppily pay. He confesses that his Jedi is dead but he sees Anakin and Ahsoka on a cam footage and syas he has a better idea to get a Jedi to cooperate. He then orders the droid to start the ship's autodestruction sequence and transfer all control to his wrist thingie. Said wrist thingie has three buttons and no interface whatsoever. He then leaves throught he vents. Anakin and Ahsoka reached the detention block and found their comrade's corpse. Yularen wants them to come back as the ennemy ship is being destroyed but they refuse. Yularen wonders why he ended up with _Skywalker_ of all Jedi (maybe he pissed somebody off?) They lead their troops onto the bridge. The commander droid says he's not in command and points to another droid as the leader. A clone blasts that droid. the commander droid says he is in charge then. A clone blasts him. Okay, that was funny.

They figure that if Bane isn't there, he must be trying to leave and head for the hangar. He's there and uses his sonic screwriver wristband to turn off the artificial gravity. This results in a pretty intense an dunique firefight as Bane and the clones use magnetic boots to anchor themselves wherever they can, the droids float haphazardly, Ahsoka manages as well as she can and Anakin just throws himself at Cad Bane. Bane manages to escape (after surpising everybody by switching the gravity on), though, with Ahsoka hot on his heels despite Anakin's warning that it's a trap. One droid however accidently fires on a canon shell resumting in a an explosion that takes everybody out except Bane and the padawan. Bane taunts her for a bit and they fight. She actually manages to kick his ass until he grabs a hold of her ankle and shocks her.

Anakin comes to. Rex and some clones survived. He tells them to find a way out of there while he goes to find his Padawan. Bane locked her up in an airlock while he is guarded by two Superbattledroids. There are three regular battle droids outside, who immediately get slaughtered by Anakin presumably only there so that bane would knwo the Jedi was coming. Oen dorid wants to fight, another wants to flee and the third jsut accepts the seet embrace of death. That was funny too. Bane explains to Ani that only one press of his omni-tool wristband will send Ahsoka to her spacey death so no funny business. He wnats him to open the Holocron for him. Anakin obliges despite Ahsoka's pleas not to. Bane places the crystal inside the Holocron. Anakin then draws both of their lightsabers to him  
and attacks. Bane opens the airlock. Anakin throws a saber at the control opening the barrier between him and Ahsoka. Bane leaves as the both manage not to be sucked byt the depressurisation.

Bane calls Gunray to tell him he's got what he was after. Gunray wants him to send him the data directly, just in case. This obvious ploy immediately fails and Bane glances (from an overlooking plateform) at a shuttle Rex and his guys secured, saying he's found a way out. Just at this moment two clones attack him. Ahsokanakin reacht eh shuttle as the ship comes apart around them. Time to leave. As they do, the hear gunfighting and see Bane's silhouette fall over the plateform railing, shot by a clone. They pick up the clone, he's wounded but assures them he'll be alright. Everybody fail to notice he sounds _nothing_ like the rest of his clone.

They get back to the _Resolute_. Yularen asks for a debrief and Anakin says they didn't save Ropal not recovered the data but neither did the Separatists, so... success?

*Spoiler: Anakin right now*
Show




*Guess that means thzt bane knows Dooku isn't the real leader of the Separatists.





*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

So. Yularen and Anakin's relationship was visibly more strained than usual this time around. I can't really tell who is supposed to be commanding whom, though. Are they of equal rank or what?
Anakin whoosing Ahsoka over the cystal (location of children/secret of the Jedi) is your classic "loved one vs mcguffin" set-up, but it nicely foreshadows Vader.

Now, Bane. It took me a while but I think I cracked the character. He's a Lee Van Cleef homage/clone. More precisely, of Angel Eyes/Sentenzia from _The Good, the Bad and the Ugly_. Both in looks (general cow-boy get up plus the metal plaques giving him some serious sinister cheeks) and behaviour. This makes a lot of sense since Bobba Fett was insipred by Clint Eastwood's Man With No Name, also from _The Dollar Trilogy_. He's an uncomplicated thug. He acts professional but his occasional bouts of gratuitous cruelty (his treatment of Todo, his getting carried away by the torture of his helpless prisoner) show that he fundamentally chose this profession because he gets to hurt people. And I'm fine with that. I'm on the record saying that I prefer villains with some complexity, but bane is a henchman, not a member of a dark magic cult, nor a fallen hero nor a barley-living killing machine. He's just a bully with a gun, pretty simple. Why is he that way? I dunno, maybe he wasn't hugged enough as a child. We don't need his backstory. Which isn't to say it shouldn't be done. The Mangoose from the _XIII_ comic book series was a similar character a "mean guy with an ugly face for whenever [the author] needed a bad guy" and the spin-off gave him the incredibly powerful backstory of an East-German forced into crime to help his father figure under the regime he lived in and becoming addicted to it. Was it in any way necessary? no. was it good? Hell, yeah! Maybe there's a great Cad Bane origin story out there somewhere, in this show even, but I don't thnik this show needs it and I won"t fault it for not having it.

So right now Cad Bane is pretty good fighter whose main qualities are his ability think quickly, his willingness to fight undehanded and his general ruthlessness even at the expanse of his allies. But also, his ennemies having a plot-mandated drop in intellingence because, seriously, how did you fall for the "dressing up as the ennemy" trick _twice_?

I'm guessing the next episode will be about Sidious going after these children, not sure how the Jedi are going to know about it since they've jsut lost their contact info, though.

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## Jasdoif

> Anakin jsut added a spaceman helmet to his uniform and Ahsokah did the same, wearing a full body variation of her usual attire. Apparently whatver material the Jedi's clothes are made of is pretty isolant.


Plo Koon did something of this sort last season, if I recall....




> So. Yularen and Anakin's relationship was visibly more strained than usual this time around. I can't really tell who is supposed to be commanding whom, though. Are they of equal rank or what?


I think it's _supposed_ to be like Yularen commands the ship and its actual crew, Anakin commands the soldiers under his...command; and they're obligated to teamwork their way to victory...so Yularen's exasperation with Anakin is entirely understandable.

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## Fyraltari

> Plo Koon did something of this sort last season, if I recall....


Indeed but he explicitly mentioned that his alien physiology allowed him some limited time in the void depsite not having any additional equipment than when in atmosphere. I mean, that's bull right there, but not the same thing as what's happening here. Here it's merely improbable




> I think it's _supposed_ to be like Yularen commands the ship and its actual crew, Anakin commands the soldiers under his...command; and they're obligated to teamwork their way to victory...so Yularen's exasperation with Anakin is entirely understandable.


But Yularen defered to Ahsoka twice last season and Anakin was in charge of the space battle over Ryloth.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 2, Episode 3: Children of the Force*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

We open with the last scene of the previous episode, which gives me the opportunity to point out that last time Anakin said he could still feel Bane even though he was dead. This coming from a guy who belongs to an order whose core tenets include "your eyes deceive you, trust in the Force." Anakin is a bad Jedi, is what I'm saying. Anyhoo, as the clone leave the shuttle, some green blood is spotted (I don't remember bane getting injured but okay), they realize what's up and try to stop Bane from escaping. They fail. Sure hope that doesn't become a habit! it does.

Bane has reached his lair and informs Sidious of his success. Rether than ask for the data obtained, the Sith tasks Bane with selecting four random kids from the list and delivering them to Mustafar for experimentation. Menwhile Yoda, Windu, Kenobi and Skywalker decide to use the Force to try and devine which children are in danger. There's a cool scene where the four of them are comparing notes about the vision they are having in order to make sense of them. They spot three children, one who is taken as they speak, one on Rodia and one on Naboo. Kenobi is sent to Rodia and Anakin (with Ahsoka in tow) to Naboo. Thankfully, my fears were for naught and I am spared another Jar Jar Binks appearance even though the Naboo child is a gungan.

So it turns out the reason these children aren't with the Temple younglings already is because they are still infant babies. Makes me wonder how the Jedi spotted them. Then again one is levitating toy blocks for funsies. Clearly being able to do that without any training makes them a MArie Sue of the highest order. At least, I'm told that's how it works. Cad Bane has gotten to Rodia first, desguised as a Jedi, and is talking to the mother of the child. He claims he has to take the bay early because of "Jedi impostors kidnapping Force-sensitive babies." Cheeky bastard. She doesn't want to but he uses some hypnotic device on her. When Obi-Wan gets there, the woman tries to stop him with Bane's blaster but he quickly gets her to come back to her senses. Not quickly enough, though, as Bane escapes with the child. On Naboo, he dispenses with the subtleties and tries to simply snatch the kid but is spotted by Ahsoka. They manage to capture him and Ahsoka takes back her hair-necklace thingie that I forgot to say he took from her last time. I think that's a stand-in for a Padawan's ponytail.

Bane is prisoner on Coruscant but refuses to talk as he's more afraid of his employer than of the Jedi (with good reason). Obi-Wan says that trying the Jedi Mind Trick on someone as strong-willed could be dangerous for the bounty hunter, which Anakin couldn't care less about. Windu, Skywalker and Kenobi try together to force Bane into submission. This is a nice creepy scene  as the Jedi talk in unisson while Bane is clearly reeling from the invasion of his mind. He manages to push them back, but when Anakin wants to try again he says he'll co-operate rather than go through this again. Windu and Kenobi will go with him to retrieve the Holocron and the children. Anakin says Palpatine wants an update of the situation. Obi-Wan thinks this is a Jedi internal matter and no concern of the Chancellor but Anakin objects that as long as they are part of the military they have to answer to the Supreme Chancellor. I'm with Ani on this one, Bane isn't a Jedi so this isn't a Jedi internal matter and Bane was working with Separatist forces last time, meaning that, as far as they know, this is part of the ennemy's strategy. Obi-Wan says Anakin has just volunteered and leaves.

Ahsoka is excited to meet the Chancellor but even if Palpatine is all warmth and smiles to Anakin he pretty much tells Ahsoka to wait outside while the grownups are talking. Ah, he wants to do his manipulating intimately. Maybe people watching stress him and he can't perform quite as well. Skywalker tell him that Bane works for somebody and he's got a hunch it's not Dooku but someone even more powerful. Meanwhile bane has taken Windu and Kenobi to his hide-out, some kind of derelict space station deep in neutral space. Windu falls for a classic reverse psychology trick as Bane says he'll get the Holocron for him and triggers a trap. The room is filled with lasers, the bounty hunter takes advantage of this and escapes through a secret door before starting the sataion's autodestruct countdown. Kenobi rescues Windu and they escape.

Anakin and Ahsoka are combing bane's ship. He wipes his navigtional computer before each voyage so they can' tell where he's been but they find out he didn't wipe his fuel-computer which lists the last planets he went to (why does it do that?) Inculding Mustafar. So the two of them head there. Sidious meanwhile is overseeing a facility on Mustafar via hologram and getting his creepy old man vibe on. He inteds to use the children to test if some kind of mind control device works, the final goal being to enslave all the prospective Jedi to turn them into his personnal Force-sensitive army. Good to see that he's got hobbies to distract him from making the galaxy destroy itself. One of the droid present tells him that a Jedi ship is approaching. He decides to play it safe and have the whole facility throw itself in the lava below. Scarping this plan for now isn't really a loss but he can't afford the Jedi to find anything they could trace back to him. Ani and Ahsoka land in the facility (I'm guessing they could sense the children but it's probably just another case of Star wars forgetting that planets have more than one place on them). They fight the droids a bit (the principal danger being that the droids are holding the children so they have to be careful not to hurt the babies).

Anakin and Ahsoka reports back to the council and are informed of Windu and Obi-Wan's middling success ("He escaped _again_?" says the Padawan to the Jedi Battlemaster). However since the Jedi have the Holcron (and the crystal) back and they can somehow tell the data wasn't copied, they decide to close the case for now.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

That was an oaky episode but it felt a bit... crowded? Like Bane escaped the Jedi three times in this and each sequence of action is barely given any time to do anything. There are five different fights (on the cruiser, on Rodia, on Naboo, in the space station and on Mustafar) and I end up with the impression that Bane only wins because his opponents get a plot-mandated drop in competence (like seriously, taking him to his own lair and not searching the place for traps?). Ultimately the plot didn't have anythinf to do with the clone wars but it's good to have Sidious act vilainous once in a while. Even though his scene with Anakin was visibly manipualtion-free it establishes that he doesn't want to deal with Ahsoka which, I'm guessing, will come more into play later as she gets suspissious of him.

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## dancrilis

> <snip>


*Spoiler*
Show


No one* ever suspects.

*nothing major even comes of anyone suspecting any bad play on the part of Sidious/Palpatine.

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## Aeson

> Then again one is levitating toy blocks for funsies. Clearly being able to do that without any training makes them a MArie Sue of the highest order. At least, I'm told that's how it works.


The argument that Rey is a Mary Sue is not based on her being able to use telekinetic abilities without training so much as on the consistency with which she pulls abilities out of nowhere to resolve the situations in which she finds herself without any need for assistance from the nominally-supporting characters of the film, exacerbated by Rey seemingly being the strongest Force adept of any of the trilogies' protagonists (despite Anakin literally being a Chosen One protagonist who was indicated to at least have the potential to be stronger than any living Jedi in the dying days of the Old Republic), failing at approximately nothing, and suffering virtually no consequences for any failures she could be argued to have had.

Looking just at untrained telekinesis, the issue is far more that the implication in the older movies is that untrained manifestations of Force sensitivity are fairly subtle - things like uncanny intuition or unusually quick reflexes. Overtly-supernatural abilities like the Mind Trick and telekinesis were restricted to people who'd had training that awakened them to their potential or opened them to the Force or whatever it is that the training does, and even then they - or at least Luke, since we don't really see anyone else at an early stage of their training - seem to need help with the idea that magic doesn't exactly follow the normal rules. Not, mind you, that EU material ever really paid any heed to that implication.

I would also comment that a telekinetic child is potentially rather dangerous, especially if - as seems to be the case with the Force - the primary limiting factor on their ability to move something telekinetically is whether or not they believe that they can do it. An infant manifesting telekinetic abilities probably ought to have been taken into Jedi custody already, or at the very least the parents ought to have a Jedi or other Force adept on hand to help deal with the fallout of telekinetically-enhanced temper tantrums.




> Makes me wonder how the Jedi spotted them.


Remember how Anakin had a blood test for Force sensitivity in _The Phantom Menace_? Include that in the newborn screening process at hospitals or maybe in standard medical checkups for small children, flag up any children with midichlorian counts that exceed a certain threshold, and send a Jedi recruiter to do a confirmation checkup.

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## AMX

> ...he didn't wipe his fuel-computer which lists the last planets he went to (why does it do that?)


I thought it just listed distance travelled between stops, so they could combine that with the places they knew he had been to narrow down where else he could have gone.

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## Fyraltari

> The argument that Rey is a Mary Sue is not based on her being able to use telekinetic abilities without training


That may not be the sole argument for that, but I have seen it used and that's what I made fun of. If you don't use it, then good for you.





> Remember how Anakin had a blood test for Force sensitivity in _The Phantom Menace_? Include that in the newborn screening process at hospitals or maybe in standard medical checkups for small children, flag up any children with midichlorian counts that exceed a certain threshold, and send a Jedi recruiter to do a confirmation checkup.


Thing is, they missed Palpatine who was from the same planet than that gungan child so "systematic blood testing" can't be the answer there.



> I thought it just listed distance travelled between stops, so they could combine that with the places they knew he had been to narrow down where else he could have gone.


Rewatching the scene that's what Anakin says he'll do, but the computer is already showing Mustafar when he boots it up and reads it from a list rather than maikng any calculation. Maybe that's just poor dialog.


*Season 2, Episode 4: Senate Spy*
*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Anakin just is onleave from the war (wonder if that's the same one as the season 1 finale) and is visiting Padmé, he even brought a space-pizza! They have a very cute scene where they cuddle and talk about food with Anakin even saying that he thinks of their household as "home". However Anakin eventually has to leave as he's been ignoring Obi-Wan's calls for several "clicks" (the hell are those, even?) and reluctant as he is to go "duty must come first, espcially during war times". the Jedi council explains to Anakin that they need him to convince Padmé to spy on someone for them. the man in question is Senator Ross Clovis (who has exactly the accent that this name implies) who is Senator of Scipio but also a representative of the Interstellar Banking Clan who they suspect of being in cahoots with the Separatists. So, the Republic knows the banking Clan has a seat on the separatist Council, no? How has that organization not been outlwaed and their assets in Republic space frozen is beyond me, but apprently they didn't. Anakin isn't really thrilled at the idea of sending his secret wife on a mission to spy on a potential traitor and his mood only worsens when he hears that the reason the Jedi want her, specifically, to do it is that she and Clovis used to be "friends" when they both started their senatorial career until she dumped him. His outburst at hearing that one gets him a raised eyebrow from Kenobi and Yoda asking why he is so surprised to not know details about Padmé. he awkwardly deflects the question and goes to talk to her.

He meets her in the Senate (even gets on her flying saucer with her) and tries to apologize but she's still pissed at him for leaving their romantic evening. And she gets even more upset once it's clear he's there because the Jedi Council sent him. He is clearly doing as little as possible to convince her but once he mentions that Clovis is a suspected Separatist agent she exclaims that Yoda never mentionned that. Wait he asked her to spy on a fellow Senator but never mentionned why he wanted her to? What kind of willy-wonka plots is he used to run?
From this point on the roles are switched as Padmé insists she will spy on Clovis while Ani tries and fails to forbid her from doing so. She even throws his "duty comes first, especially in war-time" bit a thim. I wonder if this is their first argument. The Jedi council give her a more comprehensive briefing (inculding that she may have to rekindle her and Clovis's "friendship" to Ani's visible discomfort) and assign Skywalker to her protection. She invites Clovis to a restaurant and flirts a bit. He is quick to invite her on a business trip he has planned on Cato Nemodia to deal with the Trade Federation. So the Trade Federation, despite creating and mass-producing the CIS's foot soldiers is apparently open for business with the Republic whose Senators are totally _persona grata_ on its base planet, the homeworld of one of the major Separatist people. Suuuuure... Clovis argues that Padmé's good relation with the Trade Federation would help his dealing. Ah yes, of course, why they only invaded her planet, placed a bomb in her ship (killing a childhood friend), sent venomous worms in her bedroom, had her tied to a pillar while beasts came to devour her, and tried to force an old friend of her family to have her executed, they're basically best friends! The hell? Anyway she accepts. Anakin poses as their pilot and basically pranks clovis a couple of times as the Senator gets more and more overt in his intent to get in Padmé's pants (like trying to kiss her when she's clearly reeling back, real classy dude).

On Cato Neimodia they are welcomed by (former ?) Trade Federation Senator Lott Dod who appeared in TPM long enough to call Padmé a lying liar when she accused the Federation of going all East India Company on her world. What a nice friendly reunion. Clovis excuses himself because he has something to discuss with Dod and promise her a tour later. Clovis and Dod meet with Archduke Poggle, of Geonosis. Turns out they are building a brand new droid foundry for Dooku. Dod and Poggle want a bigger share of the profits but Clovis shut them up as they apparently have ceaded their holdings to the IBC (he did say the Federation owed the IBC money). Padmé tries to snoop in but is spotted and Clovis turns off the holographic display of the foundry while Poggle hides (oh, so _he_'s not kosher?) before she can see anything. As Clovis and Amidala leave, Dod tells Poggle he's just come up with a plan to make the Scipian more pliable: poison Padmé and withheld the antidote until he agrees to their terms. Later he does just that, smearing some poison on a glass he offers Padmé.

Clovis is giving Padmé his tour of the place and, once they're back in the room the hologram display is in and says she's dying of thirst so he'll leave to fetch her some water. She turns the computer on by guessing the password (Padmé). Apparently this is Clovis's computer even though this is Dod's place and Clovis didn't bring it with him? She finds the plans and figure what's up so she downloads it and signals Anakin. Clovis comes back and, in order to hide her memory-slate, she flings herself at him. In full view of Ani. Awkward. She throws the slate at Skywalker and he brings it to R2 telling him to leave in five minutes whether he's back or not, as the Jedi must see the evidence. The poison starts taking effect though and Amidala faints. Clovis takes her to her room and pretends to leave to get a medical droid. In truth he goes to Dodd and accuses him of poisinning her. Dodd simply retorts that she's a Republic spy, something Clovis only believes after seeing that his hologram is gone (did she delete it from the computer or is the Galaxy far far away's copyright security absolutely over the top?). They accuse each other of treason and Anakin  shows up. Clovis confesses that Dodd poisonned her but he thinks that if Anakin gives him the hologram he can trade it for Padmé's life with Lot Dodd. Anakin decides to cut the middle-man and negotiate with Lot Dod himself. Clovis however is afraid  of what Dod might do to him. Anakin basically says that this sounds like a Clovis Problem, not an Anakin problem. Clovis is more worried for Padmé than for himself and agrees to take her to Corsucant. Dodd intercepts them and Clovis just draws a gun at him demanding the antidote, which is given, with the promise that Clovis will pay for this. As the heroes are about to leave Clovis begs Anakin for the hologram. "I wish I could give it to you, but I have a lot of faith in your survival skills." Ding! +5 Dark Side points. Anakin injects Padmé with the antidote and reassures her that their mission is a success and that he's never doubted her. And I have a space-elevator on Corellia to sell to anybody who believes that. Dod and Poggle, for their part want a word with Clovis, pay no attention to the droid firing squad.




*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

I think this was the best episode in the season so far (but we're only 4 episodes in). The whole separatist plot doesn't make much sense but it's only really here to serve the actual plot of Anakin being a jealous husband. This is done pretty well, as we already know Anakin and Padmé are going to stay together they don't even bother to make Clovis a credible rival to Anakin, which only highlights Anakin's childish insecurity. One bit that I only got later on was that since Clovis and Padmé were dating back when she got her start in the Senate, that means that it was during the post TPM timeskip meaning that her defense of "it was before we were together" doesn't mesh with Anakin becasue he was already obsessed with her at the time. As always Anakin is way more involved in the relationship than she is. One thing that I found weird was the the episode refusal to actually say Padmé and Clovis were dating. Like they insist they were "*friends*" but never say "lovers", "dating", "in love", "boy/girlfriend" or any other romantic term. What's up with that? I really appreciated their moment at the beginning. This, and their other moment at the end, make his action in RotS way more believable than "I'm haunted by the kiss you should never have given me."

Lott Dodd is a better Gunray than Gunray. Maybe it's just because he was barely in TPM, or maybe it's because he's not focused on petty revenge. I'm completely lost on how the CIS works however. It was my understanding that the Trade Federation, the Techno-Union, the ISB and a few other Megacorporations were pooling their resources (and private army) to organize a rebellion against the Republic in order to basically turn the galaxy into an anarcho-capitalist money-making machine while making a half-assed claim of defending the Outer Rims from Core-ist oppression. But this epsiode seems to present these same megacorps as war profiteers who deal with both parties? Even though previous episodes showed Gunray and Tambor in charge of Separatist armies and empowered to negotiate on the CIS's behalf. It's intersting to see that while the Trade Federation is apparently all Nemoidians, the ISB is more diverse with a high-ranking human.

Speaking of, Clovis is an interesting character. He's a bit cliché as a romantic rival working for the ennemy but he seems to be genuinely in love with Padmé (even if he's acting entitled about it). If he isn't shot at the end of the episode so he might develop into a nice rounded character.

It's good to see this serie realize you can make a good episode without an action scene.

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## Peelee

> That may not be the sole argument for that, but I have seen it used and that's what I made fun of.


Seconded. I also dislike that, because it's both simpler and more accurate to just chalk it up as bad writing. I also think a good deal of TCW has bad writing, like the infant using the Force (seriously, anyone with any experience with an infant would know that, even if they could access hidden powers like that, it would not be the controlled manner that adults or even adoloescents would have, but jerky, sudden, unpredicatable telekinetic thrashings, similar to how they "control" the rest of their body).

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## Fyraltari

> Seconded. I also dislike that, because it's both simpler and more accurate to just chalk it up as bad writing. I also think a good deal of TCW has bad writing, like the infant using the Force (seriously, anyone with any experience with an infant would know that, even if they could access hidden powers like that, it would not be the controlled manner that adults or even adoloescents would have, but jerky, sudden, unpredicatable telekinetic thrashings, similar to how they "control" the rest of their body).


Meh, I don't think the Force is comparable to motor control, it's more spiritual than that. It doesn't look like Force users really have to think of how much (physical) force to apply and where they need to get the precise acceleration they want so that the object will move the way they want to. It seems more that they just have to want the object to move and it moves how they want to.

They don't move the object as much as, through the Force, make it _want_ to move.

It's like drawing, in a way. The first time you try to draw you are disappointed because even though you have a lcear picture in your head you don't have (yet) the fine motor control required to actually translate that image on the paper. With the Force the image gets translated from you mind to reality without having to go through all these annoying muscles.

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## Iskar Jarak

> We open with the last scene of the previous episode, which gives me the opportunity to point out that last time Anakin said he could still feel Bane even though he was dead. This coming from a guy who belongs to an order whose core tenets include "your eyes deceive you, trust in the Force." Anakin is a bad Jedi, is what I'm saying. Anyhoo, as the clone leave the shuttle, some green blood is spotted (I don't remember bane getting injured but okay), they realize what's up and try to stop Bane from escaping. They fail. Sure hope that doesn't become a habit! it does.


I think the clones that held Bane at gunpoint managed to hit him offscreen before he killed them. 
The Clone Wars really likes characters escaping. It's better that they escape, rather than die and take their storyline with them, but it isn't exactly good either.




> Then again one is levitating toy blocks for funsies. Clearly being able to do that without any training makes them a MArie Sue of the highest order. At least, I'm told that's how it works.


I think the single stupidest complaint I've ever seen about Rey is that she shouldn't be able to defeat men because they weigh more than she does.




> It's good to have Sidious act vilainous once in a while. Even though his scene with Anakin was visibly manipualtion-free it establishes that he doesn't want to deal with Ahsoka which, I'm guessing, will come more into play later as she gets suspissious of him.


The camera zooms in on Palpatine's evil little smile every time he gets manipulating.

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## Peelee

> Meh, I don't think the Force is comparable to motor control, it's more spiritual than that. It doesn't look like Force users really have to think of how much (physical) force to apply and where they need to get the precise acceleration they want so that the object will move the way they want to. It seems more that they just have to want the object to move and it moves how they want to.
> 
> They don't move the object as much as, through the Force, make it _want_ to move.
> 
> It's like drawing, in a way. The first time you try to draw you are disappointed because even though you have a lcear picture in your head you don't have (yet) the fine motor control required to actually translate that image on the paper. With the Force the image gets translated from you mind to reality without having to go through all these annoying muscles.






> I think the single stupidest complaint I've ever seen about Rey is that she shouldn't be able to defeat men because they weigh more than she does.


....wow. Yeah, that one would be hard to top.

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## Fyraltari

> I think the single stupidest complaint I've ever seen about Rey is that she shouldn't be able to defeat men because they weigh more than she does.


I mean it can always get dumber.



> 


That's becaus he wasn't focusing on the present moment but being anxious about the future/his friends.

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## Peelee

> That's becaus he wasn't focusing on the present moment but being anxious about the future/his friends.


Yoda also admonishes Luke for not concentrating during yet another handstand when he drops everything, when he _is_ focusing on the present moment, so I would disagree somewhat.

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## Fyraltari

> Yoda also admonishes Luke for not concentrating during yet another handstand when he drops everything, when he _is_ focusing on the present moment, so I would disagree somewhat.


Isn't that the one where he's having a vision of Vader torturing Han?

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## Peelee

> Isn't that the one where he's having a vision of Vader torturing Han?


No, that's still the "control" part, IIRC. The "concentrate" bit is when the X-Wing is sinking.

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## Jasdoif

> *Season 2, Episode 4*


Hey, that means the arc containing the season's two best episodes (the second and fourth episodes of the four-episode arc, specifically) starts next!  It gets harder and harder to pick favorites as the seasons go on, as the competition gets fierce as average episode quality rises....




> However Anakin eventually has to leave as he's been ignoring Obi-Wan's calls for several "clicks" (the hell are those, even?)


Beats me, this is the first occurrence of the term as a unit of time in Star Wars.  (A *k*lick, meanwhile, is a kilometer; no bets on if whoever wrote the draft went with the first word for "measurement unit that sounds military!" and didn't think about it again)




> One thing that I found weird was the the episode refusal to actually say Padmé and Clovis were dating. Like they insist they were "*friends*" but never say "lovers", "dating", "in love", "boy/girlfriend" or any other romantic term. What's up with that?


Cartoon Network had..._esoteric_ standards of what they allowed to be shown/said, is the best I could determine.  (Have we seen _any_ blood *other* that Bane's plot-advancing drips?)




> I'm completely lost on how the CIS works however. It was my understanding that the Trade Federation, the Techno-Union, the ISB and a few other Megacorporations were pooling their resources (and private army) to organize a rebellion against the Republic in order to basically turn the galaxy into an anarcho-capitalist money-making machine while making a half-assed claim of defending the Outer Rims from Core-ist oppression. But this epsiode seems to present these same megacorps as war profiteers who deal with both parties? Even though previous episodes showed Gunray and Tambor in charge of Separatist armies and empowered to negotiate on the CIS's behalf.


Well, with some assumptions of continuity that I'm not always sure the series cares to uphold....*Spoiler: Compiled from multiple later episodes*
Show

The military forces of the CIS come from several extraplanetary corporations/guilds/etc.; but the Confederacy of Independent Systems also comprises...independent systems, that were tired of being economically/politically screwed over by the Republic and rallied behind the stated cause CIS when it started out.  We even see the Separatist Senate in "action" at one point.

The Trade Federation and InterGalactic Banking Clan, both of which "happen" to be economic guilds, profess to be neutral between the Republic and Confederacy and deal with (planets on) both sides.  Lott Dod's claims that Nute Gunray is a rebellious ******* whose actions don't represent the Trade Federation as a whole are helped by the fact that Nute Gunray is indeed an *******.  There's an entire arc centered around Clovis and the InterGalactic Banking Clan in post-original-ending season six, so I'm not going to go into detail here.

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## Peelee

> Hey, that means the arc containing the season's two best episodes (the second and fourth episodes of the four-episode arc, specifically) starts next!


That's an odd wat to spell "the eleventh episode."

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## Jasdoif

> That's an odd wat to spell "the eleventh episode."


Since "the sixth episode" and "the eighth episode" are not "the eleventh episode", I'm not surprised.  I _just_ *said* it got harder to pick favorites since the last season!

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## Fyraltari

*Season 2, Episode 5: Landing at Point Rain*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The war isn't exactly going the Republicans' way: with their army spread out to fight Grievous, several occupied Separatist planets have taken up arms and kicked the GAR out, this includes Geonosis, theater of the war's very first battle. Apparently the Geonotians were rallied by their leader Archduke Poggle the Lesser, who celebrated by inauguring a brand new droid foundry (I'm guessing the one discussed last time) which would supply even more troops to the CIS forces. In response the Republic has sent a massive invasion fleet (a whopping 15 cruisers, more than twice what Ryloth was worth) to retake the planet and capture Poggle.

On-board Kenobi and Ki-Adi Mundi are reminiscing about the last time they were there and deplore that they underestimating the natives' strength as well as thei loyalty to Dooku. 'coz clearly they rebelled against the army occupying their homeland out of personnal loyalty to that one guy, no other reason. Anakin and Ahsoka arrive fresh from some other battles and are having a kill-count competion, Anakin won 76 to 65. Everybody meets up for a breifing session with Yoda, Windu and Palpatine. Luminara Unduli is also there by hologram but not, apparently in the same place as the other three. I guess she is leadign another prt of the planetary assault. Poggle is holed up at his foundry, protected by a shield generator meaning that Kenobi, Skywalker and Mundi will lead that one attack to maximize their chances at reaching both of their objectives. Their forces are to split up into three group: Obi- Wan and Cody will lead an assault from the North-East, Ki-Adi from the East and Anakin, Ahsoka and rex from the South-East. They will meet up at a landing area close to the shiled then proceed innside to take out the generators. Ahsoka is worried about a wall covered with gun on the map but Skywalker assures her they aren't going anywhere near it. Yeah and we don't go to Ravenholme anymore.

The following battles takes up 80% of the episode and it's a pretty intense one. It's insteresting that for one the ennemy isn't battle droids but organics, in the form of Geonotian soldiers. Also their fighters look like a mid-point between Vulture droids and some TIE fighter types. It _very_ quickly becomes apparent that they have underestimated the natives again as they are greeted by a storm of laser fire (one clone even comments that the "bugs" can't aim just before his dropship is shot down) that takes a serious toll on them. To wit: Ki-adi crashes approximately one planet away from the landing area, Anakin crashes closer but has lost all his tanks and most of his unit and Obi-Wan's dropship is shot down. Only Cody managed to reach the landing area with his and Obi-Wan's tanks but they are welcomed by a metric flood of ennemies.

Cody orders the tanks to form a circle and to withstand the ennemy fire until the others get there. Having spotted his boss's downed gunship he sends two troopers there to rescue the survivors. It's our friends Boil and Waxxer, as happy as always to be getting the "fun" missions. Obi-Wan and another clone named Chopper are the only survivors and Obi-Wan seems wounded. Once they make it to to the circle again, Obi-Wan concludes that they have no choice but to wait for their allies. Yularen is contacted but he declines their request for some additional air support because veerything he gives them he'll have to take from another battle on the planet. He does order to scrap any fighter than can be spared, though.

Mundi and his guys have reached some kind of mountain-thingie that the Jedi's instincts are telling hi mis the shortest route to the others. They have some idea of the general situation and are hoping to regroup with Skywalker on their way. The tanks can't follow them through the tunnel they are about to cross, though, so they elect to leave them behind with a squad to protect them. Unfortunately for them the tunnel is guarded by winged Geonotians. It's a tough battle but they power through, resorting to flame-throwers in the end.

Anakin aand his motley crew, meanwhile are ont he other side of the mountain-thing but their way is barred by the huge wall Ahsoka mentionned, which she is quick to remind Anakin they weren't suposed to go near. They also have a moment where they learn that Kenobi's ship is down and Anakin laments that the _one time_ he's asking for his former Master's help he can't get it, while Ahsoka is just worried about Obi-Wan. Anakin admits that he worries too, but there's nothing they can't do right now. The wall is the one thing staffed by droids for some reason. Anakin and Ahsoka climb up the mountain and attack the droids (Anakin even inquires about Ahsoka's kill-count of 25). They fight off a couple droidekas with Rex's help (how did he get up there so fast?) and throw two bags full of grenades in a manhole a B1 convieniently opened for them. Then they throw Rex off the wall and jump using the Force to cushion their fall and protect them from the debris of the wall (from two backpacks of grenades? What's it made of? Pizza dough?). Rex is about as thrilled by the expereince as you can imagine.

Anakin and co meet up with Ki-Adi who explains that Obi-Wan's position is under fire. Anakin calls Yularen who informs him that he has managed to get a squadron for them. Said squadron proceeds to throw the ennemy into retreat. Anakin and Ahsoka are elated to see that Obi-Wan is still alive even if he is apprently wounded and Mundi isn't in much better condition. Right, now that the easy part is done, time to destroy that generator. Anakin and Ahsoka lead a squad under the shield and throw EMP grenades at the cannons that defend it, that allows their remaining tanks to get close enough to blow it up and the gunships move in to finish the job. The surviving Geonotians surrender. As Obi-Wan and Ki-adi are leaving, Ahsoka insists on comparing their kill-counts, Ankin says it's not the right time but eventually gives in: 55 to 60 Ahsoka wins. Anakin, tries to claim a tie since he called the airstrike but Ki-Adi Mundi interjects: his own count is of 65, so what has he won? My everlasting respect, says Skywalker. Mundi is disappointed even as Obi-Wan says that is a rare gift. It's funny because the Geonotians died screaming.




*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

This is a war-focused episode, which is a good thing ot have in a franchise called _Star Wars_, and it's a good one. The tension is up for almost all the episode. The only bits I found a bit weak wear Anakin aand Ahsoka's battle against the wall and the final assault against the shield generators that felt like an afterthought. While not being one of the best so far, this episode is above the average of last season as it was very entertaining from start to finish, which makes me curious to see why jasdoif is hyping the next one. There are quit a few gems too. I like Obi-wan's grim resignation to fight even wounded when the landing area is being overtaken followed by his relief at the reinforcement's arrival. It's also interesting to see that he feels the war is dragging on (with reason, he's literally back to square one). The kill-count game is also interesting as while it's not unexpected from Anakin and someone as young as Ahsoka to treat this all as a game, that a master of the council like Mundi is partaking is probably a bad sign: the Jedi are supposed to uphold peace not compete to see who can kill the most. It's probably not coincidence that this happens in the one episode where the ennemy is not made of interchangeable indentical faceless robots but people. Interchangeable indentical facless bug-people, but still. Speaking of, I hope that the next episodes acknowledge that, unlike other episodes, the Jedi are not leading a defensive action against an invader but leading and invasion agaisnt people fighting for their planet. It won't ever be framed as comparable to tambor's occupation of Ryloth but still, it would beintersting to see Ahsoka question the morality of what they're doing.

One last thing, Palpatine says that it may not be good idea to put three of their best Jedi in the same battle in case it turns wrong and during the battle one clone says that it's like the Geonotians knew their every move. Has Sidious told Poggle what the Jedi were planning?

----------


## Jasdoif

> (from two backpacks of grenades? What's it made of? Pizza dough?).


I can't decide if this was closer to firing a proton torpedo down a small thermal exhaust port right below the main port, picking a high point on the wide range of explosive power in portrayals of thermal detonators, or the time the Tick thwarted the Breadmaster's plot to envelop the City in a soufflé by borrowing the Human Cannon's cannon to make it collapse on itself.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I can't decide if this was closer to firing a proton torpedo down a small thermal exhaust port right below the main port


I don't think that wall has a reactor, though.



> picking a high point on the wide range of explosive power in portrayals of thermal detonators


Most likely that one.



> or the time the Tick thwarted the Breadmaster's plot to envelop the City in a soufflé by borrowing the Human Cannon's cannon to make it collapse on itself.


That is certainly a sentence.

----------


## Peelee

Fyr, I regret to inform you that you've been pronouncing the Republic's capital planet all wrong. Fortunately, I found a pronunciation guide that can help!

*Spoiler*
Show

----------


## Fyraltari

> Fyr, I regret to inform you that you've been pronouncing the Republic's capital planet all wrong. Fortunately, I found a pronunciation guide that can help!
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show


Wa? That's not how you pronounce Trantor.

*Season 2, Episode 6: Weapons Factory*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Moving on from they were last time, Anakin and Ahsoka are planning their assault on the droid factory. Ahsoka is supposed to be giving the debriefing on the defenses to the clone officers but Anakin constantly talks over her to her growing frustration. He denies her accusation of not trusting her: he just wants to be sure the job is well done, which is of course the exact same thing. They are interrupted by Luminara Unduli and her own Padawan Barris Offee come to reinforce them. Unduli explains that the Separatist defenses are too strong for them to breach without a blood bath, as they'd have to cross a moat on an exposed bridge but fortunately, the foundry is built over tunnels (she says catacombs, but I don't really see why a factory would need that and there isn't any dead body in there so they are more like dormitories) some of which are very close to the moat. Barris has memorized all two-hundred-odd turns needed to go from the moat, through the tunnels to the factory's power room, so the plan is that a team is sent there to plant bombs while the rest of the army mounts an attack to serve as a diversion (I thought the point was not to cross the bridge to avoid casualties?). Unduli suggests Ahsoka and Offee do the metal gear thing while Skywalker and herself lead the assault. Anakin is opposed but Ahsoka says there's no resaon to worry: she'll be with "reliable" Barris, after all, and he backs down.

Unduli and Skywalker march their troops, parade-like along the bridge and are welcomed by a swarm of droids. "Not to worry, says Anakin, as long as we destroy them faster than they build them." They progress relatively well until flying geonotians spring out of the columns on both sides of the bridge. Once that is dealt with, Poggle unleashes his new secret weapon (I forget is that the fourth or the sixth Seppie secret weapon?) super tanks! They're just like regular tanks but super! Teir shielding is strong enough to withstand everyhting the clone artillery has to offer but they have to roll it back to fire. Kind of an obvious design flaw if you ask me. Once his artillery has gone up in smoke Ani orders a retreat. This vexes Rex: "We can't just turn our backs and run!" Great tactical thinking there rex, I'm sure you do your instructors back on Kamino proud. Anyway, the clone obeys and Luminara and Anakin climb down the bridge, putting bombs on the underside of it and then detonates them sending the tanks crashing down into the chasm below. But the Jedi are trapped on the other side of the moat with a fresh batch of battle droids.

Meanwhile Ahsoka and Barris made their way into the tunnels. They have to go through a romm full of sleeping geonotian soldiers (gotta respect their strict observance of naptime). Ahsoka is visibly much cooler under pressure than Offee who almost panics as a sleeping warrior's hand touches her head. As they leave said warrior wakes up and follows them. Offee is momentarily lost until she remembers that one particular turn wasn't "left" but "up", this worries Ahsoka but they do make it into the main power room and start planting bombs everywhere and setting their timers. The geonotian meanwhile goes to warn Poggle and his tactical droid about the intrusion. They barge into the power room with a few warriors, some droids and one supertank. Why is the corridor leading to the power room big enough for a tank? Did their architect graduate from the Moria's School of Unnecessarily Large Passageways?
As the padawans fight the droids the geonotians start taking the bombs away and flee through the the tunnels with them. Ahsoka throws a bomb to the supertank. The tactical droid laughs and states that such a bomb cannot possibly penetrates the tank's armour. As he stands next to the bomb as is destroyed when it goes off. Who programmed these guys? Poggle leaves and the Padawans are left alon with the tank. It tries to fire on them but in doing so exposes its intrior hull, allowing Offee to carve a hole intto the roof and take down the droid drivers. The two Jedi-learers ponder what to do for a moment before settling on using the tank's weapons on the generator even though they will be caught in the explosion. Ahsoka radios in Anakin to tell him that they won't make it out and fires as he objects.

Anakin and Offee are still in front of the foundry and Rex implores them to leave the blast radius (but Rex, they can' tjsut turn their backs and run!). Too late. Anakin goes resteless with grief and starts combing the debris, mobilizing the clone's tank crriers to move the biggest chunks, while Unduli says they should accept their padawans' passing with dignity and restraint as they can't possibly find them in time. Offee and Ahsoka are still alive inside what used to be the ank but runnign out of air. Barris is fine with their sacrifice, as it alledgedly saved the thousand of lives the droids built by the factory would have taken. Ahsoka says she's about to save save theirs and uses a batterry to hotwire her broken comm-link (something her master taught her) to send a signal to Anakin. Faint as it may be it allows them to find the girls and Ani and Luminara conjointly levitate the debris away from their pupils. As they reunite Barris assures Unduli and Skywalker that Ahsoka did most of the job.
And we're apparently to the point where they don't even bother showing the Separatist Council members escapign anymore, because of course Poggle wasn't into the besieged building as it blew up.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

That was a good episode but I really wish the episode where Ahsoka is colly in command, the episode where Anakin unconditionnally trusts Ahsoka but she has to learn leadership and the episode where Anakin learns to trust Ahsoka waere shown in the reverse order. I'm starting to wonder if season 6 won't have an episode where Ahsoka learns to use the Force or something.
The conflict of the episode is mostly an excuse for exploring Anakin's over-protectiveness of Ahsoka but some bits feel a bit forced to thart end like that the breakdown was Masters on one side and Padawans on the other rather than the more natural one Master-Padawan team on each side. The contrats between Luminara and Skywalker's style of teaching was nice: strict and proper but kind of cold versus free-form but but rocky. Barris cutting a rock with her lightsaber in a rectangular shape rather than the usual circle was a nice touch. As was undescoring of the fact that Luminara and Skywalker both care for their pupils even if they don't express it the same way. Also the usula vader-shadowing with Anakin's unwilligness to give up translating into agression.

But seriously, the joke I made about the Erso family designing the Separatists' droids and weapons feels less improbable with each new weapon.

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## Jasdoif

> Originally Posted by Jasdoif
> 
> 
> or the time the Tick thwarted the Breadmaster's plot to envelop the City in a soufflé by borrowing the Human Cannon's cannon to make it collapse on itself.
> 
> 
> That is certainly a sentence.


One of the side effects of having a really good long-term memory and pattern recognition, is that deliberately absurd phrases like "wall of pizza dough" sometimes remind me of stuff I watched over a quarter century ago....





> Once that is dealt with, Poggle unleashes his new secret weapon (I forget is that the fourth or the sixth Seppie secret weapon?) super tanks! They're just like regular tanks but super! Teir shielding is strong enough to withstand everyhting the clone artillery has to offer but they have to roll it back to fire. Kind of an obvious design flaw if you ask me.


I like to think they have huge stockpiles labelled "Generic Secret Weapon ComponentsTM", and each one has a dedicated designer whose instructions are "you have a strict time limit to make as many functional Lego aberrations out of these as possible"; and so there are a bunch of superweapon cousins, none of which had time spared for a thorough testing phase.


I'm not sure if I'm talking about in-universe weapons engineers trying to save themselves, or out-of-universe writers trying to forcefully cause additional conflict for the story to resolve.  Maybe both.

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## moossabi

> *Season 2, Episode 6*


Something that's always bothered/amused me about this episode is how the Jedi temporarily drop the "capture Poggle" objective and are content to just blow him up with the factory. Complete nonspoiler for the next episode but said objective becomes their main focus while nobody acknowledges that if not for that one drone waking up and sounding the alarm Poggle would just be dead and they wouldn't be able to get any of the info they wanted out of him. Pretty big hole in the Jedi plan imo.  :Small Tongue: 

That being said, the next episode is my personal favorite in the series so I'm looking forward to its coverage. I hope you enjoy it!

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## Iskar Jarak

> She says catacombs, but I don't really see why a factory would need that and there isn't any dead body in there so they are more like dormitories


Of course she says catacombs: it sounds much cooler than dormitories. And really, dormitories are just catacombs for people that are still alive.




> ...the plan is that a team is sent there to plant bombs while the rest of the army mounts an attack to serve as a diversion (I thought the point was not to cross the bridge to avoid casualties?)


Order 66 works for a reason.





> That was a good episode but I really wish the episode where Ahsoka is colly in command, the episode where Anakin unconditionnally trusts Ahsoka but she has to learn leadership and the episode where Anakin learns to trust Ahsoka waere shown in the reverse order. I'm starting to wonder if season 6 won't have an episode where Ahsoka learns to use the Force or something.


Happily, there's only one other episode I can think of that has a similar problem and this is the most awkward instance (that I can recall). 




> But seriously, made joke that the Erso family designed the Separatists' droids and weapons feels less improbable with each new weapon.


The Separatists' endless stream of "super" weapons is actually ingenious worldbuilding disguised as sloppy writing. The weapons are all designed by independent contractors competing for funding. Every Separatist weapons-designer aspires to design a vaguely adjacent to semi-functional weapon and are all unwilling to share the reward that such an almost effective weapon would bring. This lack of teamwork and oversight results in obviously flawed designs. Whatever is in charge of allocating Separatist R&D resources is willing to squander piles of credits on flashy designs, or any chance of winning the war  -- which results in designers being encouraged to attempt grandiose super weapons and desperately puffing up their flimsy designs. Once the "super" weapon fails, the Separatists scrap the design and funnel resources into a different design that hasn't yet had the chance to fail spectacularly.

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## Fyraltari

> Something that's always bothered/amused me about this episode is how the Jedi temporarily drop the "capture Poggle" objective and are content to just blow him up with the factory. Complete nonspoiler for the next episode but said objective becomes their main focus while nobody acknowledges that if not for that one drone waking up and sounding the alarm Poggle would just be dead and they wouldn't be able to get any of the info they wanted out of him. Pretty big hole in the Jedi plan imo. 
> 
> That being said, the next episode is my personal favorite in the series so I'm looking forward to its coverage. I hope you enjoy it!


Their main aim in capturing Poggle seems to be to ensure that the Geonotian do not rise again, to that end, killing him is just as good as taking him alive. Also why are you calling that guy a drone? They seemed completely organic to me. Anyway...

*Season 2, Episode 7: Legacy of Terror*

You know, I'd like to see an alien insectoid species where the "queens" just do the same thing as real-world insect queen do: pop eggs, rather than go with the misconception that they command anything.

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Luminara Unduli is surveying the ruins of the factory when she is joined by a healed Obi-Wan Kenobi. They discuss their victory but agree that for it to mean much they must capture Poggle the Lesser, to this end, Unduli takes off on a speeder with a singel clone escort to try and find him. Obi-Wan heads to their planetary HQ (or whatever this place is) and meets up with Ki-Adi Mundi and Anakin. Poggle, meanwhile is fleeing with a single (non-super) tank, a couple B1s and some crates. They lose one but Poggle insists they don't have time to stop and pick it up. Unduli and her escort find the crate and tell the other Jedi. It seems that Poggle is headed for "the Progate temple" which is weird because it was bombed and so there probably isn't anything left there (it's not like the previous episode established that every Geonotian building comes with an elaborate tunnel network, heh?). Obi-Wan advises agaisnt further pursuit at the moment because a huge sandstorm is headed this way but Luminara thinks the risk is acceptable. Poggle gets caught up in the sandstorm and when a B1 can't follow elects to abandon it. This is a weird moment, it's th emost humanized the B1 have been so far, but it deosn't impact anything in the episode, in fact it's thz last time the B1s, tank and crates (identified as ammunition) are seen. Odd. Unduli and her bodyguard arrive at the the temple just after Poggle but he seems to have vanished. As they contact the other Jedi, they are attacked by offscreen ennemies and the communication is cut short. Anakin is worried but Obi-Wan trusts Master Unduli to fend for herself. At least until the storm dies down and they actually are able to go there and help.

Anakin, Obi-Wan, Cody and seven more clones land at the temple. That's kind of light for such an important mission against an unknown ennemy, no? They find the corpse of Luminara's soldier and her lightsaber. They don't think Poggle could ahev done that and wonder who could be responsible. As the temple is adorned with statues of some kind of Geonotian goddess, Anakin wonders if she could be responsible and Obi-Wan if that's the rumored Geonotian queen, whose existence was never confirmed. Right on both counts. They find an entrance to the catacombs (this time it actually is catacombs) and proceed in. Unduli, meanwhile, wakes up, she is being carried away by several sickly looking geonotians accompanied by Poggle. She starts fighting, her handcuffs forcing her to use soem nice tae-kwon-do kicks, but as her foot gets caught inside the stomach of a warrior she recoils in horror as that doesn't stop him from trying to grab her. She takes her comm-link and calls Kenobi, telling him not to follow her and leaves immediately. Obviously this just make him want to go further down. They get ambushed by some geonotian warriors and it soon becomes apparent that these guys don't die when you shoot them in the head. It just makes a little worm crawl out of their nose and back inside. Yup, zombi alien insects because why the **** not? The good guys flee after losing two clones and Obi-Wan sends two more to report to Mundi when it turns out that they are to deep to callt he surface. These two don't make it ten meters away form the group that they get ganked by some more zombis. Anakin wants to go himself but Kenobi doesn't thik it wise to divide their forces further.

They keep going and reach the main chamber. The queen is sitting on some kind of oversized throne-sofa and is about twice or thrice as big as Jabba. Poggle is talking to her and Unduli is chained to the throne. Also present are a butt-load of zombis. Anakin starts planning an assault but Obi-Wan wants to talk to the queen. She's taken Luminara alive rather than kill her so she probably won't want them dead right away and he wants to understand how she controls her undead minions. He still orders Cody and the three other clones to circle the room and be ready to flash the ennemy with their helmets' flashlight: as they spend their time inside poorly lit caverns they will be more sensible to it so they'll be confused. still once that wears off better target the pillars: they can't kill the soldiers but they can bury them in rubble. Anakin and Obi-Wan advance while bantering about each other's approach to tactics. Unduli berates Obi-Wan for not listening to her and he says Anakin is rubbing off on him. Cute. The queen asks what they are doing here. Wait, if Poggle is a front for her as the episode implies, why can't he speak Basic when she can? That would be much more useful to him than her. Of course the real reason is that they needed somebody to speak for the geonotians here and Poggle was already established as not speaking Basic, but still. Obi-Wan tells the queen that her rule is at an end and to submit to Republic authority. Great opening, there oh wise and subtle diplomat. She rants for a bit about how her rule is forever (apparently she means both that her servant serve in death and that she is very long-lived as she calls the obviously aged Poggle "young") and how she only had one Jedi but now she has three. Her guards disarm Obi-wan and Anakin, she presents her "child" another worm that will burrow into Unduli's cranium and mind control her. Err, would that even work? I mean, these things eveolved to do that on Geonotian brains not on... whatever species Unduli and Offee are. Also the queen calss Geonosis "Geonotia", not sure what to make of that. Obi-wan is curious about the process, Anakin less so, Unduli even less so. Finally they give the order and Force pull their lightsabers (and the worm) as Cody & Co blind the aliens. Anakin frees Unduli and gives her her ligthsaber while Obi-wan grabs Poggle and cuffs him. The clone shoot the pillars and everything starts to collapse. Anakin sees Unduli's worm in Obi-Wan's hand and assumes it's attacking so he grabs it and stomps on it. "I was going to study that! -Study the back of my boot!" The heroes and their prisoner make their way out as the temple collapses on its catacombs, burying the queen and her servants. Obi-Wan remarks that her really wanted to figure out the hive mind/mind control/zombification thing. Anakin says that hopefully the secret is buried with the queen. Ani, either there's only one queen (improbable) and you've just condemmned an entire species to extinction or there are other queens who would most likely know the trick.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Sorry moossabi, but this one I found kind of forgettable. I remember reading the second zombi story ever when I was very little and being so terrified of it that I for the longest time couldn't stomach any story with zombis or or any forced transformation from good guy to bad guy. This doesn't bother me anymore but I think this is the core element of the zombi subgenre that this story lacks, the ennemy isn't your allies raised agaisnt you it's just some uglier tougher variant of the aliens you've been fighting for two episodes. There isn't really any character work either, although the Kenobi-Skywalker banter is leagues ahead of season 1, they actually sound like friends throwing friendly jabs at each other (both in tone and meaning) rather than two angry co-workers stuck together and throwing blame at one another.
I'm not really sure what the villains where trying to accomplish either, why was Poggle carrying ammo? Why did he meet with the queen, what was she hoping to acocmplish with a couple of Jedi that she risked revealing herself even though the existence of the queens was apparently secret for who-knows-how-long? I'm guessing Poggle and Watt Tambor will escape together, seeing them co-operate might help to give them some distinct character traits. I wonder if Poggle will stay relevant to the show as this story basically relegates him from leader to spokeperson but also shows that the Separatists are keeping secrets from each other.

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## Peelee

> You know, I'd like to see an alien insectoid species where the "queens" just do the same thing as real-world insect queen do: pop eggs, rather than go with the misconception that they command anything.


The Slurm Queen was pretty close to that. She was still the boss, but that was mostly because her Queen ability kept the operation running, so kind of a natural evolution of how a sentient race with a queen would be.



> Sorry moossabi, but this one I found kind of forgettable.


That's OK, it's not episode 11. :Small Wink:

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## Fyraltari

> The Slurm Queen was pretty close to that. She was still the boss, but that was mostly because her Queen ability kept the operation running, so kind of a natural evolution of how a sentient race with a queen would be.


...

I haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about.

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## DataNinja

> ...
> 
> I haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about.


He's making a Futurama reference ("Fry and the Slurm Factory").

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## Peelee

Note to self, rally for a Fyraltari Futurama Watchthrough thread at some point.

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## DataNinja

> Note to self, rally for a Fyraltari Futurama Watchthrough thread at some point.


I feel like comedy doesn't really lend itself as well to reviewing just by its very nature, but, hey, I've been surprised before.  :Small Tongue:

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## Peelee

> I feel like comedy doesn't really lend itself as well to reviewing just by its very nature, but, hey, I've been surprised before.


Excuse my language but I have had it with you ruffling my petticoats!

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## moossabi

> Also why are you calling that guy a drone? They seemed completely organic to me. Anyway...


I mostly meant it as a general term for a lower class insectoid, however apparently in that context it apparently has a more specific definition than I was aware of ("a male bee in a colony of social bees, which does no work but can fertilize a queen", TIL).




> Sorry moossabi, but this one I found kind of forgettable.


No need to apologize, you basically hit what I liked about it the most anyways:



> the Kenobi-Skywalker banter is leagues ahead of season 1, they actually sound like friends throwing friendly jabs at each other (both in tone and meaning) rather than two angry co-workers stuck together and throwing blame at one another.


I enjoy it as a solidly-paced romp along the lines of what I assume a D&D session is like; it's nowhere near the top of others' lists of favorite episodes, I just have a thing for it I guess




> I'm guessing Poggle and Watt Tambor will escape together, seeing them co-operate might help to give them some distinct character traits. I wonder if Poggle will stay relevant to the show as this story basically relegates him from leader to spokeperson but also shows that the Separatists are keeping secrets from each other.


*Spoiler: moos rants about TCW's villains for an undue amount of time, not too spoilery but has things like "x character comes back y times" so if you care about that then just ignore this*
Show

The Separatist Council is absolutely _squandered_ in this show. Of the AotC/RotS members the only three that appear are Nute Gunray, Wat Tambor, and Poggle. San Hill and the Banking Clan's direct involvement in the founding of the CIS are completely ignored in favor of a completely different hierarchy and everyone else is nowhere to be found outside the occasional namedrop of the other corporations. By this point in the show, Nute Gunray is completely out of it. Instead of trying to do some good character work with him (which they were making headway on in Cloak of Darkness), the Trade Federation is just inexplicably neutral and Lott Dod shows up constantly from here on out. After their respective first outings, Tambor and Poggle receive cameos on prison monitors way off in season 5 but are otherwise completely absent for the next god-knows-how-many episodes until season 7.

The show doesn't really care that much about who the Republic has captured at any given point. In season 7, Wat Tambor is just spontaneously out of jail and pulling the same "my company was totally neutral all along guys" schtick as Dod and the Trade Federation despite his warcrimes on Ryloth and the fact that he says outright to Windu's face "We will all perish for the glory of the Separatist Alliance!" for the duration of his season 7 arc. Poggle actually has a throughline for how he got out of jail in the book Rogue One prequel book Catalyst, but there are no ties to this in the show. What you're talking about sounds like a fantastic series of episodes to watch, this show's villains are at their strongest when they're interacting and bouncing off of each other, but this happens so rarely in the grand scheme of things that I think the showrunners just didn't care about giving any of the CIS villains (outside of Ventress, occasionally Dooku, and if you really want to push it then Grievous) actual character development.





> That's OK, it's not episode 11.


I had to look up which one you were talking about, and I consider myself a fan of the first two seasons.  :Small Tongue:

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## Fyraltari

> Note to self, rally for a Fyraltari Futurama Watchthrough thread at some point.


Unlikely.



> I mostly meant it as a general term for a lower class insectoid, however apparently in that context it apparently has a more specific definition than I was aware of ("a male bee in a colony of social bees, which does no work but can fertilize a queen", TIL).


See, I thought that only meant the remote contolled flying robot thingie because we borrowed that word from you guys, but the male bees we call "fake bumblebees".




> No need to apologize, you basically hit what I liked about it the most anyways:
> 
> I enjoy it as a solidly-paced romp along the lines of what I assume a D&D session is like; it's nowhere near the top of others' lists of favorite episodes, I just have a thing for it I guess


Great!

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## Fyraltari

*Season 2, Episode 8: Brain Invaders*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Well, the Queen's dead, long live the Queen and her name was Karina the Great, apparently? Anyway, Anakin and Luminara are taking Poggle to Coruscant to stand trial for his crimes (I mean, beside treason, what did he do?), but Ahsoka and Barris have another mission: they must go to Ord cestis (the hopital space station from way back in Season 1) to pick up some supplies to deliver to Master Windu on Dantooine whose troops are in a bad situation.
*Spoiler: I think he can handle it*
Show





Meanwhile, a group of clones is taking a nap near the ruins of the Temple, and one of Karina's mind control worms hatches and slither into a clone's nose. They are woken up by their commanding officer who tells them they are being assigned to the Padawans' mission. As they embark, we see that the possessed clone, Cy, has picked up some more worm-eggs and is taking them along.

During the flight most people onboard go to bed but Cy wakes up and starts putting eggs near his clones' beds and the worm hatch and takes them over. He then takes two of them to the cockpit and shoots the pilot dead before engaging autopilot. While this is going on, Ahsoka has trouble sleeping. If you ask me that'd be because they don't have bedsheets and are forced to sleep fully clothed (well as fully clothed as Ahsoka can get anyway) which is probably not ideal after battles on a desert planet. She, however, attributes it to the sudden change from unrelenting action to quiet. Offee tells her to just enjoy the peace while it lasts but Ahsoka would rather take her on a midnight snack. As they eat (Ahsoka is holding her fork backward like her lightsaber that's so cute), Ahsoka admits that she can't really reconcile the Jedi's theoritical role as peacekeepers and their current role as warriors and whe wonders how they will act once the war is over. Barris admits she doesn't have the answer and asks her what Anakin makes of all this. She says that Anakin's thoughts are probably a bit too radical for Offee's liking, alwyas doing "what needs to be done" and that she (Ahsoka) isn't sure how he'll function in peace-time.

They are interrupted by two clones attacking them. They knock them out easily but two more arrive, including the clone commander, Trap. Trap and his cohort put their weapons down, convincing the Jedi they're on their side. Ahsoka wonders if this is the same as the time Anakin and Obi-wan were betrayed (hey, continuity !). The bridge doesn't respond so Trap convinces the two learners to leave the two mutineers under Havoc's (the other clone) eyes and go to the bridge with him. However there are security laser-shields stopping the way to the cockpit (does that kind of security ever show up on any other ship?) and Trap attacks while the Padawans are distracted. Yeah, you can totally take them on one-on-two. During the struggle, his worm tries to leap out to Offee who stabs Trap (oops, just killed a friendly!) but Ahsoka cuts it in two. They quickly guess what's going on (mind control parasites from Geonosis) and head for the comm center to warn Ord Cestis. Also Trap was Ahsoka's friend, apparently?

On their way, they see several clones, speaking Geonotian, including Cy, forcefully infect another one with a worm. Before they can do anything, they are attacked by Havoc and forced to fight the clones. They escape through the air vents and Offee decides they need to split up. Ahsoka goes to the comm center and she to the engine room. And if worst comes to worst, Ahsoka will have to "do what needs to be done". Ahsoka immediately reaches the comm room and inform Fisto on Ord Cestis (wait, why doesn't he do the supply run?) Fisto wants them to board anyway so the worms can be studied assuring her that they'll take every precaution. I'm with him, there's only, what two dozen infected? And they have plenty of face-covering gear. Barris isn't as lucky though, as she falls into a trap that shocks her, making her drop her lightsaber. One clone remarks that "if there's one thing we clones know how to do, it's to stop Jedi". Oooh 66-shadowing. Anyway she forgets that she has magic powers and is infected.

Ahsoka calls Anakin, who had started to worry that they lost communication despite Obi-Wan's insistence that this is basically her taking after him. Wait, if this is nighttime on Ahsoka's ship's clock why would she report in now? Hell, how is this not nighttime on these guys' ship; they left from the the same place at the same time? Anyway, Anakin tells her to keep her wristwatch open and to find Barris, he'll go interrogate Poggle. As he goes in the cell, he dismisses the guards, and, once Poggle brushes off his mind trick, slaps him hard enough to throw him on the floor and Force-strangles him as the Imperial March plays. Oooh. He then goes to the Jedi and informs them of the situation. Apparently the worms are looking for hosts because the Queen is dead. But Poggle told him how to beat them. The other Jedi are a bit worried he interrogated the Geonotian on his own and wonder how he got him to talk, questions that he brushes off.

Ahsoka is joined by Barris just as Anakin hangs up. Offee does that thing slasher movie monsters do, where they stand ominously behind a window for no reason and attacks. Should have pretended to be un-infected Barriss, like Trap did. Ahsoka tries the good ol' "I know you're in there somewher" bit. Doesn't work. She hides in the air vents (how does that work on Barris?) and is contacted by Anakin. the worms can't stand cold so she has to rupture the coolant system. She heads to the main air conditionner room , or whaterver this is supposed to be, and pushes the buttons that realease the cooling fluid into all the rooms of the ship. Sounds like terrible design, if you ask me. This knowcks the clones out but not Offe (I guess her species has a more active metabolism than humans?). Ahsoka has barely enough time to regret her chosen outfit before having to fight her again.

Their ship come out of hyperspace but is flying towards the station way too fast despite the two ships with tractor beams that Fisto sent to stop them. Who programmed this auto-pilot? Fisto has all the alarms sound and orders a quarantine to be put in place. Ahsoka reaches the bridge but Offe attacks her again before she can slow down the ship. She sprays cooling fluid at Barriss, this allows her to regain control long enough to beg Ahsoka to kill her, which she refuses to do. Offee attacks again and her worm decides to poke out of her mouth for some stupid reason (yeah, let's go out in the cold where I'm exposed to my ennemy!). And Ahsoka cuts the worm in two. Like they try to make it look like she killed Barris, but come on. The ship is lowed down and Fisto boards with some clones (the Jedi isn't wearing any protection!) and they find the Padawans.

Ahsoka wakes up in an hospital bed with Anakin next to her. He informs her that Barris and the clones are allright (I have doubts concerning Trap's allrightness), and Fisto comes in to inform them that the worms are the same type of creature that they had found on Geonosis. Thnak you, Master Obvious! Also, they couldn't analyse the worms they found last time, so what the hell, Fisto? Anakin wants a warning to be given to the troops on Geonosis, as he suspects the worms helped the Separatsists' retaking of the planet. Ahsoka privately asks if she should have killed Barris when she told her to, she feels like the fact that she couldn't is a failure of her part to follow the Jedi code. Anakin tells her that letting go of their attachment is hard for all Jedi and that she was right to follow her instincts. Besides Barris didn't know the cold would take out the worms when she said that. This reassures Ahsoka.





*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

That was a good one overall even if the the bad guys' actions don't really make sense (which is understandable since they seem to only be animal acting on instinct now that their quenn mother is dead) and everybody oversells their threat. I mean, they can't *make* more worms without a queen so the notion that thousands would be in danger if they reached the station is ridiculous.
The way the worm control their hosts is also incoherent. Like they speak Geonotian at one point implying the host's personnality is gone, but one clone still takes pride in his clone-ness when they capture Offee and she can still use the Force implying the host is still there.

The real meat of the episode, however, is the interactions between the Jedi. Ahsoka and Offee's developping friendship is great and I hope to see more of it, they nicely play off each other with Ahsoka being more impulsive and Offee more collected. Ahsoka's puzzlement over the Jedi's actions and their code is just as nice as it really feels that Anakin is acting as a techer even though he himself doesn't agree with the Jedi way that much. His slip to the dark side is getting more attention as seen when he tortures (there are no other words for that scene) Poggle for information. I have more to say on Anakin's fall so far, but I'll wait until I ma through this season before going into details in case there are more scenes like this one.

As far as zombi plots go, this one was better than last time because, as I said, the heroes are fighting their allies this time, but it doesn't really feel like one either, but I don't think it's really trying to do so actually, as the zombis are more a generic threat for Anakin to be afraid of Ahsoka facing rahter than the focus here.

----------


## Fyraltari

Also, I had noticed the different hair colors among clones, which can be easily explained with dyes, but on this episode I spotted various eye colors. Are they wearing contact lenses? That would probably be cumbersome after a day of combat. Especially in deserts like on Geonosis.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> Also, I had noticed the different hair colors among clones, which can be easily explained with dyes, but on this episode I spotted various eye colors. Are they wearing contact lenses? That would probably be cumbersome after a day of combat. Especially in deserts like on Geonosis.


I don't think cosmetic eye coloration tech is a stretch in the SW universe.  Probably a booming business started centuries ago by Darth Practical to hide his glowing yellow eyes in public.

----------


## Fyraltari

I've just watched the next episode and , I gotta say, "a Hutt soap opera is not what I signed for" wasn't a thought I ever thought I would express, but here we are!

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> I don't think cosmetic eye coloration tech is a stretch in the SW universe.  Probably a booming business started centuries ago by Darth Practical to hide his glowing yellow eyes in public.


Also the Kaminoans would often tweak the genetics of various batches of clones to see what produced a better solider. Minor variations in hair and eye color could result.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season** 3, Episode 9: Hunt for Ziro*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

This is a follow-up to the last season's finale because that clearly is the most important dangling plot thread right now. Obi-Wan is meeting with a Jedi Knight called Quinlan Vos on Coruscant to pursue Bane and Ziro. Kenobi tells Cody that Vos is crazy and his point is immediately proven by Vos choosing to jump off the dropship that has to land anyway to the platform rather than walk like a normal person. Cody rolls his eyes so hard you can tell he's doing it even though he wears a helmet. This is his only contribution to the episode. Obi-Wan thinks Bane kidnapped Ziro for Jabba as payback for his trying to kill Jabba's son in the pilot movie, however Vos has intel (somehow) that Ziro has dirt on the "Hutt Council" so they're probably behind this. The two of them depart for Nal Hutta to talk to said council.

Quinlan Vos is right as said council, made up of representatives of the five biggest Hutt crime families and lead by Gardulla the Hutt (I think she was a rival of Jabba's in _Legends_?), only got Ziro out because he keeps an holo-diary of all their criminal activities. And he claims that if he dies the diary will go public. They still throw him in jail. Then they have a party. Full of half-naked twi'lek dancers wearing face concealing masks designed to look like hutt heads. I think it's better not to question that. The lead singer isn't a twi'lek but Sy Snootle, the frog/giraffe/fly hybrid from RotJ. Once she learns that the hutts' happy mood is due to Ziro being locked up in the dungeons she makes an excuse and leave. She reaches the cell block, trick the gamorrean guards into fighting ("Gardulla wants to know which one of you is the strongest"), and talks with Ziro. Apparently the two were lovers, but he ditched her (he says Jabba made him do it), he convinces here to help him escape and they kiss. I know someone somewhere is enjoying that image, and good for them, but that isn't me.

Our two Jedi reach Nal Hutta and Quinlan antagonizes the hutts right off the bat. fortunately Obi-Wan reins him in (Gardulla even says that they would have killed Vos otherwise). The council denies any knowledge of Ziro's whereabouts. However touching a glass discarded by Ziro earlier grants Vos a vision of Ziro and he confirms his presence to Obi-Wan. They find the cell block and the unconscious (dead?) guards, conclude that Ziro has had help and leave. Cad Bane reveals that he has been in the palace this entire time and watching the Jedi from afar. The hutts hire him to find Ziro and the diary.

Ziro and Sy stop at "the one place Gardulla won't look for me." His mother's. Sure. Why not. So we get a deadbeat son/verbally abusive mother scene before he can get her spaceship to escape Gardulla's wrath. The Jedi are tracking him on foot, through the swamp, no idea how that works. Obi-Wan fights a random snake. They bicker. Bane just flies by as he heads directly to Ziro's mom. The Jedi get there. Vos breaks the door which appals Obi-Wan just as much as me. Mrs Desilijic says Bane forced the destination of her son out of her, so she tells the Jedi as well to protect him, I think? They leave without paying for the door.  This attitude is why the Republic turned on you, guys.

Ziro and Sy land on some random planet where they find Ziro's father's grave. He never told his mother the man was dead because some people are happier miserable.  :Small Annoyed:  He retrieves the diary from the grave and Sy shoots him down for breaking her heart.
*Spoiler: Yayy.*
Show





Bane arrives and notes that Ziro is dead and the diary missing  (how did he even know it was supposed to be there?). But then arrive the Jedi, they first think he did it, but he says the kill is too sloppy to be his handiwork, which they accept. But they decide to take him in since, you know, also a wanted criminal on the run from the law. Bane retorts that the Seppies buy Jedi severed heads 1 million credits apiece [insert Dr. Evil meme here]. They have a fight scene. Bane escapes. Obi-Wan makes a pun about how much he dislikes teaming up with Quinlan Vos. Turns out Sy Snootles was hired to retrieve the diary by Jabba.




*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

This episode is bad. It's the worst of the season so far and, hopefully, its absolute nadir. This is the b... least worse Ziro got so far, and that's due in no small part to the fact that he freaking dies in it. Good riddance. Bane is clearly only there so that the Jedi have someone to fight at the end but since this fight is completely irrelevant to the rest of the episode it completely failed to get me interested. It's pretty blatant that this fight and the snake one are only there to fill a quota. The Jedi themselves are only there because we gotta have Jedi in there somewhere as they accomplish nil throughout the episode. Quinlan Vos is a poor man's Anakin having pretty much the same "reckless" dickish personnality. Obi-wan even calls him crazy. Gotta watch that one in case he starts dressing in all black and making weird speeches about new powers and stuff. He does have one interesting quirk though: the power of psychometry deserves to be featured more prominently than it is in this universe, I just hope they find something more interesting to use it (and him) on. Also this takes place after the last season finale, which itself happened after the beginning of this season (raising the question of how Bane managed to slip through Coruscant's customs security after having antagonized the Jedi like that) but Bane has To-Do with him even though he blew him up in the beginning of the season, what the hell?

I've already watched the next one and, thankfully, it's way better.

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## Peelee

Don't forget that since these aren't in chronological order, the mere fact that Ziro is dead does not mean you won't see him again!

*Spoiler*
Show

Although yes, you won't see him again.

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## Fyraltari

[Insert Merovingian's curse rant from _The Matrix reloaded_ here]

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## moossabi

...Hunt for Ziro is season *three* episode nine.

Normally I would be wondering how on earth that happened, but the fact that you landed on one of the worst episodes of the series is condolence-worthy.

So, my condolences that you landed on it by mistake.  :Small Tongue:

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## Fyraltari

> ...Hunt for Ziro is season *three* episode nine.
> 
> Normally I would be wondering how on earth that happened, but the fact that you landed on one of the worst episodes of the series is condolence-worthy.
> 
> So, my condolences that you landed on it by mistake.


*headdesk*

So it is. I must have clicked on the wrong icon when selecting the season I wanted to watch from (they all use the same picture on that website!).

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## DataNinja

I mean, really is it Star Wars if you don't get the later parts before the earlier ones at some point?  :Small Wink:

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## Fyraltari

*Season  2, Episode 9: Grievous Intrigue* for real this time.

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The narrator informs us that it's a diabolical deafeat: the Republic is winning! ... What?

Anyways, Grievous and a party of droids are boarding a Republic cruiser led by Jedi Master Eeth Koth. The general postures for a bit (during which no clone takes a shot at him despite him standing still two meters in front of them with his hands behind his back for a while) and Koth calls him a coward and a murderer, then he retorts that it's not murder to kill Jedi. Are we sure he's a kaleesh and not a kaled? Koth can manage commando droids but Grievous and his magnaguards beat him into submission. Grievous then calls the Jedi council to gloat about having captured a Master of the Council and rants that he doesn't care about politics or the war, he only wants to kill Jedi. But he's going to drag Koth's death to make it painful. Yoda wants the younglings to leave the room so that the grownups can talk. Who thought it'd be a good idea to have younglings present when the jedi-hunter called? One of Plo Koon's clones noticed that Koth was making hand signals during the call telling them to go to the Saleucami system. Anakin and Obi-Wan volunteer to go there as do a Jedi called Gallia (that I know thanks to the closing credits her name isn't pronounced once in the episode. The hell?).

Obi-Wan plan is simple, Anakin and Gallia will infiltrate Grievous' flagship while he draws Grievous aboard his and captures him. He is confident Grievous will come for him personally because they have a history. They do? I feel like Grievous fought Anakin more than Obi-wan, but okay. Grievous arrives on orbit of Saleucami and order a landing but is interrupted by the arrival of Kenobi. The general takes the bait but orders his subordinate to watch for Skywalker who is never far behind Kenobi. Anakin is in a shuttle with Gallia, Rex and a couple clones. they come out of Hyperspace almost ontop of Grievous's ship ('coz Hyperspace jumps can be this precise I guess) and attach themselves upside down relative to it. Despite the fact that they have artificial gravity, Gallia's hair/tendrils/thingie fall up. Anakin's hair however is unperturbed. How much gel does he use? Grievous has reached Obi-Wan and their fight starts pretty much identical to the one with Koth, with Kenobi taking out the commando but struggling against Grievous and his bodyguards. Turns out however that Grievous had foreseen Obi-Wan's plan and Koth is guarded by eight commando droids. Seriously? You expect Anakin and left only eight commando droids and one tactical droid to fend him off? The tactical droid has a remote in his arm that can fry Koth so Anakin cuts the arm. The droid picks it up during the fight with his other arm but find he can't press the button while using his arm to hold his arm and is destroyed. Kenobi and Grievous banter for a bit. Kenobi wants to know what Grievous gains in all this "a futile quest for power? His place as Dooku's errand boy?" Grievous doesn't care about that and says he's the leader of the greatest droid army ever, Obi-Wan replies that the droids have no loyalty beyond their programming. Grievous states that he's working for a future without Jedi. However he flees when it becomes clear that he's losing the duel.

Obi-Wan orders the pilots to disconnect the two ships but the duel damaged the controls beyond repair. He also warns Skywalker that Grievous is headed back. Gallia goes to confront him while Skywalker brings the limping Koth to the shuttle. grievous orders his droid to open fire on the Republic ship (even though he's still aboard) and to commence deployment on the planet below, and he fights his way past some clones and into his own ship. Gallia and Kenobi fail to stop him and he wants to pursue but Gallia points out that the the ships are separated and they are on Grievous's, if they don't make it to Skywalker's shuttle they will be trapped. They do so and leave at the same time as Grievous who went inside one of those troop carriers from TPM. Kenobi's ship explodes. The good guy make it back to the _Resolute_ and report their half-victory: one prisoner rescued, one target escaped. Kenobi orders Anakin to command the space battle while Gallia brings Koth to the space hospital and he pursues Grievous himself. Anakin asks if he's sure he can manage and Obi-Wan acts offended. Like, you've just failed this very mission, Obi-Wan, you don't get to act like Anakin is being unfair here. Koth says he would have gladly given his life if that had meant capturing Grievous but Anakin says that, at least, they all lived to fight another day, right? This cements the fact that Anakin doesn't consider the clones to be people since a whole shipful just died like two minutes prior.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

]While this is far from being as bad as the other ninth episode, it isn't _good_ either. They clearly didn't have enough plot for a 22-minute episode so they plugged in as many fights as they possibly could to make up for it and it end up feeling like a long fight scene. One that ends up in the same situation the episode began. That said there aren't any glaring flaws either, so it's just mediocre. There are hints to Grievous's character: he doesn't care about galactic politics and he hates the Jedi with a burning passion, but I don't really know what to make of them. Why does he hate them so much? That'd be interesting to know. How was he recruited by Dooku, what does he make of the fact that Dooku used to be a Jedi? What does he know about Sidious? What does he think of Ventress?
Also why were Ahsoka and Rex there if they weren't going to have any lines or contribute anything?

----------


## Fyraltari

Thinking about last episode. Wouldn't it have made more sense if grievous had tried to exchange Koth for Poggle and/or Tambor (as a trap of course)? The episode would have had less padding and we would have seen these two escape.

*Season 2, Episode 10: The Deserter*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Grievous's transport ship has been shot down in-between episodes (but he did get a new cape so silver linings) forcing him to flee in escape pods. His crashed pretty hard on Saleucami and its transmitter is fried. In fact of all the pods only one still has a transmitter capable of reaching the fleet so someone can pick him up. He mobilizes his droids and has them find a mount for him (I think it's the same kind of creature that the one with three horns from AotC). They head for the pod but the droids start complaining that they are low on power so Grievous kills one for comedy, I guess?

Obi-Wan lands with his troops and Rex (I thought he worked for Anakin with the 501st and Kenobi commanded whatever unit Cody is in?) and they head for the downed transport ship. As Grievous isn't there, Kenobi sends Rex and 3 troopers ahead on bikes. They stumble on a pair of commando droids with a sniper rifle who manage to shoot Rex square in the torso despite zooming comically on his face. After killing both droids they recognize that the local animals are domesticated and bring their wounded captain to the nearby farm. They are "welcomed" at gunpoint by a twi'lek named Sue who accept to shelter Rex in the barn for the night. Rex wants to press on, but his medic pulls rank on him and order him to take some rest, as should the shot have been two inches to the left it'd have gone right through his heart. From which we can conclude that humans have their heart under their left breast in this universe. During the discussion, Sue's two kids Shiah and Jek barge in and Shiah says that Rex is just like her father. Sue clarifies that her husband is away, delivering their first harvest.

Said husband comes in during the night and surprise! He's a clone! I guess the children aren't biologically his. Even if twi'lek and humans can interbreed (they canonically can) and the children do look like a mix of human and twi'lek they are way too old for that (even when taking accelerated growth into account). Rex is angry and demands to know the deserter's number. "Cut Lawquane" is his answer. Rex says he has a duty and Cut says his duty is to his family. Who comes in to welcome him back and the children insist Rex must come eat with them. At dinner Rex has calmed down considerably and is having a cooler discussion with Cut. He says that he is simply exercising his right as a free agent to choose his life. And he points out that he knows Rex has thought about it too (they are as close to being one single person as you can get so he has a pretty good idea of what is going on inside Rex's head) and that the simple fact of having a name is a proof of individuality. Rex doesn't really have anything to counter that so he says that his life in the army is meaningful as, should the Republic lose, their children will live under an evil he can't imagine (if only he knew). Cuts remarks that Rex isn't allowed to have children, he's just regurgitating Republic talking points. Rex admits to it but says that it doesn't matter if it's his children or somebody else's he chooses to fight for them. Exactly, says Cut, to each his own. And Rex realizes he's been had.

Later on the two are playing Dejarik and Cut explains that he deserted after the battle of Geonosis (the first one, I assume), his transport ship was ambushed and the droids gave no quarter. Rather than be slaughtered he ran away and questionned his existence: now that his team was dead, he felt like another expendable clone. Rex empathizes with him, having apparently lost many close brothers during the war. Cut says he knows Rex thinks him a coward but that he would fight to protect his family. And indeed, his two children discover an escape pod in the fields (how did they miss it crashing down a hundred meters away from their house?) and Shiah accidentally activates the commando droids inside. Said droids are malfunctioning which apparently means attacking the first organics they can find I guess. Rex wants to fight but, as he's injured, Cuts tells him to stay back and protect Sue and the children as a last resort while he fights the oncoming horde with the rifle and his old military-issued blasters (he handed his pistol to Rex). The fight is pretty intense and takes down good chunks of the house but all five come out without any injury. The next morning, as Rex leaves, Sue asks him if he will report Cut's desertion. He says that it is his duty to, but because of his injury he "probably won't remember". Sue and Cut offer him a place at the farm but he declines it. His family is elsewhere. He then radio Obi-Wan to meet up with him.

While all this was happening Kenobi had a bad day. they scanned a deactivated droid to find Grievous's landing spot (how didn't they see that from orbit?) but, to his exasperation, they still managed to fail in capturing him. Again. Anakin is never going to let him forget that.




*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

This was a pretty good episode. It's nice to see clones challenge their lot in life. Rex has learned that one can decide not to fight for the Republic and not be a coward (something he had trouble with last season). The fact that the clones are slaves to the republic is addressed again, but the complicity of the Jedi in this isn't (yet). Also it's interested to see that in Rex's case it's voluntary. The parts with Grievious were completely disconnected with the rest of the plot. I feel it would have been better to just cut them out entirely. Have the initial set up of the search for him and the several pods and then just follow Rex. And then at the end Rex is told by radio that Grievous escaped. Again. Because of course he did. But off-screen this time. That way there'd have been more room for Rex to interact with the Lawquane.

Also I think this is the only episode featuring clones wherein none died.


Edit: Alright! Next up is Peelee's favorite ever! I'm curious to see what it's about.

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## Peelee

> Edit: Alright! Next up is Peelee's favorite ever! I'm curious to see what it's about.


Spoiler: not clones. Or wars. I don't even think it's about "the"s.

ETA: Apparently, it's based on a Kurosawa movie. I'm starting to think it's not that I love Star Wars, but rather it's that I love Kurosawa.

Double ETA: 


> Originally Posted by Peelee
> 
> 
> Note to self, rally for a Fyraltari Futurama Watchthrough thread at some point.
> 
> 
>  Unlikely.


Is it because of their very subtle running gag regarding the French language?

----------


## Fyraltari

> Spoiler: not clones. Or wars. I don't even think it's about "the"s.
> 
> ETA: Apparently, it's based on a Kurosawa movie. I'm starting to think it's not that I love Star Wars, but rather it's that I love Kurosawa.


I have my fingers crossed for _Rashomon_ but I just know its going to be _Seven Samurai_.

You know, I really ought to watch _Hidden Fortress_ and _Yojimbo_ at some point. I mean, Ive watched _Star Wars_ and _A Fistfull of Dollars_ so I should watch the originals.


... To think that we almost had Toshiro Mifune playing Obi-Wan Kenobi. No disrespect to Alec Guinness but that would have been bloody great.




> Double ETA: 
> Is it because of their very subtle running gag regarding the French language?


No, its because I already gave it a try a while back and the first episode really didnt do it for me (let me guess « it gets better ») so its way back at the end of my list. And as has been said upthread comedy doesnt really lend itself to this kind of review. Besides, I understand that it is a show by Americans for Americans about Americans so there would be a good number of jokes, points and satires that would pass me by.

Dont fret, I will do a _Last Airbender_ thread at some point.

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## Dire_Flumph

> You know, I really ought to watch _Hidden Fortress_ and _Yojimbo_ at some point. I mean, Ive watched _Star Wars_ and _A Fistfull of Dollars_ so I should watch the originals.


Star Wars takes inspiration from a lot of things, but I've never really understood the stance that it's some sort of remake of Hidden Fortress.  There are some obvious things taken from it, but not any more than Flash Gordon or several other things Lucas was a fan of.

But if you want to see a jaw-droppingly direct lift Star Wars took from another film, watch the climax of the Dam Busters some time.

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## Peelee

> I have my fingers crossed for _Rashomon_ but I just know its going to be _Seven Samurai_.


No to both.

----------


## Fyraltari



----------


## Jasdoif

> ...but I just know its going to be _Seven Samurai_.


No, that's still several episodes out.  (Look, the dedication to Kurosawa appears before the title card; it will be hard not to be spoiled on that one....)

----------


## Peelee

> No, its because I already gave it a try a while back and the first episode really didnt do it for me (let me guess « it gets better ») so its way back at the end of my list. And as has been said upthread comedy doesnt really lend itself to this kind of review. Besides, I understand that it is a show by Americans for Americans about Americans so there would be a good number of jokes, points and satires that would pass me by.


Bender Bending Rodríguez is Mexican, Hermes Conrad is Jamaican, Amy Wong is Martian, and Turanga Leela I am deliberately omitting for anyone who has not watched it.

Even for the rest of the cast, they are more Earthican than anything, and many of the jokes are not "about America" any more than most other American-made shows (and, arguably, actively less about America, since the vast majority of the stories involve off-world travel or non-location-specific plots. A huge part of the series that is frequently alluded to is that it is not the world we live in today.



> Dont fret, I will do a _Last Airbender_ thread at some point.


Hooray!

----------


## Fyraltari

> Bender Bending Rodríguez is Mexican, Hermes Conrad is Jamaican, Amy Wong is Martian, and Turanga Leela I am deliberately omitting for anyone who has not watched it.
> 
> Even for the rest of the cast, they are more Earthican than anything, and many of the jokes are not "about America" any more than most other American-made shows (and, arguably, actively less about America, since the vast majority of the stories involve off-world travel or non-location-specific plots. A huge part of the series that is frequently alluded to is that it is not the world we live in today.


Isnt there a few American celebrities appearing as disembodied heads and allegories to American social/political questions? Also I find your saying «*they are more Earthicans*than anything*» as an attempt to convince me the show is not about the US but IN SPACE! very amusing.

Also also even if they arent that doesnt change anything of the fact that I didnt find the first episode(s) funny and that I dont think this kind of reviews would go well with this type of show.


Look I might, _might_, give it another shot but no promises are made.

----------


## Peelee

> Isnt there a few American celebrities appearing as disembodied heads and allegories to American social/political questions? Also I find your saying «*they are more Earthicans*than anything*» as an attempt to convince me the show is not about the US but IN SPACE! very amusing.
> 
> Also also even if they arent that doesnt change anything of the fact that I didnt find the first episode(s) funny and that I dont think this kind of reviews would go well with this type of show.
> 
> 
> Look I might, _might_, give it another shot but no promises are made.


The celebrities are merely that - celebrities. Their appearances are, for the most part, restricted to the fact that they were famous for whatever (and typically mocking that).

I'm not going to say there aren't American-centric references scattered throughout, but I would say it's not terribly much more than any other US-made show, and more than a few I suspect you would enjoy because of how they treat many American-centric references.

*Spoiler: Which is to say, mockingly*
Show

*Leela*: Look, I know there are no car-chases, but this is important. One of these two men will become President of the World.
*Fry*: What do we care? We live in the United States.
*Leela*: The United States is part of the world.
*Fry*: Wow, I _have_ been gone a long time.

All that being said, I'm not pushing for you to do a review thread for it (though I would read the hell out of such a thread because Futurama is the greatest show ever made), and I'm the first to admit the first season, and the first several episodes especially, are pretty shaky compared to the rest of the series. I just think you would probably enjoy a lot of it. But humor is subjective and I could be wrong.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Non-committal shrug*




> All that being said, I'm not pushing for you to do a review thread for it





> Note to self, rally for a Fyraltari Futurama Watchthrough thread at some point.


 :Small Confused: 

In other matters, I forgot to put it in the review but in the 9th episode, Grievous asks Kenobi if all is going to plan and the Jedi replies « it depends on your point of view. » And no. Just no. *wags finger* Bad show.

----------


## Peelee

> 


Fair point, forgot I'd said that.

Although I _am_ rallying for your next episode review, in any event.

----------


## DataNinja

> The celebrities are merely that - celebrities. Their appearances are, for the most part, restricted to the fact that they were famous for whatever (and typically mocking that).
> 
> I'm not going to say there aren't American-centric references scattered throughout, but I would say it's not terribly much more than any other US-made show, and more than a few I suspect you would enjoy because of how they treat many American-centric references.


As someone who's _not_ American, there are... definitely a few references that I didn't get but were obviously American, but there was enough other stuff to enjoy it. Still climbed up to become my favorite TV show, and one of the few things to genuinely be able to make me genuinely laugh out loud when I'm trying to be quiet and not disturb anyone else.

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## Fyraltari

> Fair point, forgot I'd said that.


That happens to the best of us.




> Although I _am_ rallying for your next episode review, in any event.


Someones gotta learn the virtues of patience. ^__^

If I dont write it tonight Ill probably do so Friday evening.

----------


## Peelee

> If I dont write it tonight Ill probably do so Friday evening.


Mmhmmm.

I thought I saw something about patience but I was in too big a hurry to really read it all.

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## Fyraltari

> Mmhmmm.
> 
> I thought I saw something about patience but I was in too big a hurry to really read it all.


Operating word here is « probably ».

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 2, Episode 11: Lightsaber Lost* a.k.a. Peelee's favourite, a.k.a. _Stray Dog_ in space.

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Ahsoka and Anakin are taking a break from the war to take an assignment in the Coruscanti underworld: some gun-runner is buying stolen Republican weapons and military supplies and selling them to the Separatists, obviously the Jedi don't approve. They've tracked him to some kind of bar. Skywalker goes to arrest him and leaves his aAdawan outside in case the man makes a run for it. Anakin is about as subtle as he ever is and a crowd flees the bar in a panic shoving Tano aside. To her horror she realizes someone used that opportunity to steal her lightsaber, an alien of the same fish-like species as Bane's hacker back in the finale of season 1. She doesn't manage to catch him, though, as he disappears in the street. She hides what happened to Anakin and gets back to the Temple with him and their prisoner.

Back at the Temple she confides to Jocasta Nu (I'm guessing she feels she can tell her since Nu, having been beaten by an intruder, is in no position to scold her for failing to be a perfect Jedi). Ahsoka stresses that she can't tell Anakin what happened because he'd be mad as he always tell her "this lightsaber is your life, you mustn't lose it". Ah! That's cute. Jocasta then directs her to an old Jedi, Master Tara Sinube, who specializes in the Coruscanti crime milieu. He's also very old and looks kind of like a shell-less upright turtle with hair. She tells him about the theft and, hearing that the thief was from an aquatic species, he jokes that there was something fishy about him. I wonder if that's considered a specist joke in that universe. From the info of where the theft happened he shows her the pictures of six known thieves of the right species (how did he eliminate all the quarrens, mon cals,  aqualishes and hwo knows how many amphibious species on the planet?) and Ahsoka recognizes the culprit: a petty thief named Bana Mu. She hurriedly thanks him and says that if there's anything she can do for him... There is! He wants to come with as he hasn't had a mission in years and he thinks she needs to slow down (she's been pacing across the room and acting all nervous during their whole conversation) or she's never going to succeed.

They head for a fence known for buying from Bana Mu and act like they want to buy a lightsaber. The fence and his associate admits they know where to find one, but when Ahsoka shows them a holo of Mu and asks if they'll buy it from him, they realize they are dealing with Jedi and agree to tell them where Bana Lu lives out of fear. Doesn't stop the associate (a twi'lek) to say that Ahsoka owes him a favour. Huh, kinda weird, she's already doing them a favour by not arresting them for dealing in stolen goods. Wonder if that'll become important later. Also missed opportunity for a "I'm not a Jedi, I'm just a guy with a lightsaber and some questions" joke. Once at Bana Mu's place (a hotel) Ahsoka is worried that they won't find his room without alerting him, but Sinube tells her to quiet her mind, if she weren't so anxious she'd fell the thief's anxiesty and know that he is in... this room. She uses the force to break the door (This attitude is why the Republic turned on you, guys) and barge in. Mu has a terrible stereotypical Italian accent and I wish he'd shut up sooner. Anyways, he already sold the weapon to a crime boss called Nak Movers who they can find at his girlfriend's. Ahsoka is none too pleased to learn that her weapon ended up in the ends of a killer, that was precisely what she was afraid of.

As they arrive at Nak's girlfriend's place, Sinube again tells Ahsoka to calm down and that her worry that of someone getting killed with her weapon is a valid concern but one she'll have to puzzle out herself. They easily find Nak's suite: opening button has been slashed and there's a dead trandoshan inside, Nak himself they guess). Also there is Nak's girlfriend, Ioni Marsee, who's been hiding ever since a group of men came and killed Nak. Sinube senses that she's terrified but there's something else troubling her. Ahsoka goes into the next room and is ambushed by another woman, holding her lightsaber but not knowing how to turn it on. When Ahsoka recognizes the weapon, her opponent understands that she's facing a Jedi and decides to jump through a window. She's trying to escape by leaping from building to building, Ahsoka can barely follow her and tell Sinube she's pursuing the intruder who she identifies as a "terrelian jango jumper". Not sure what a jango is, unless she's from a species where it's a tradition to regularly jump above Jango Fett or something.

Sinube surreptitiously places a tracking beacon on Ioni and confronts her about the intruder being a woman rather than a group of men. He alludes less and lees subtly that he doesn't believe her story, until finally bluntly stating that she wasn't afraid because of the attack but that the Jedi would find her accomplice (he also implies she's poisoned Nak), as he says that, a handful of police droids arrive, but because he earlier told Ioni he'd called the police, she manages to escape in a speeder she had remotely summoned. Meanwhile, the Jumper, named Cassie is fleeing Ahsoka by parkouring through Coruscant's skyline. It's a nice action scene if a bit drawn out. Cassie manages to switch the lightsaber on and uses it to disable some floating billboard they're running on, making Ahsoka fall on a giant screen of Palpatine making an adress. It's hard to hear what Palps is saying (I'm not watching with subtitles) but I caught "Jedi created the war... power". More on this below. Ahsoka catches a passing by speeder and uses the Force to bend a pipe Cassie was climbing to place her in the middle of nothing above a huge pit. Should probably use the Force to catch your saber, Ahsoka. Cassie escapes by jumping on Ioni's speeder, leaving Ahsoka stranded.

She spends some time sitting there until Sinube arrives on a jetbike he loaned from the police and tells her he's pleased she's learned to be patient. Ahsoka is worried he's driving (flying?) too slowly but he tells her not to worry, his tracker tells him they're going to the train station and they'll catch them there. Still think you're driving dangerously slowly, there, Sinube as everybody else is rushing past you. Speed limits go both ways, you know.
At the station, Cassie finally notices the tracker (it's a huge blinking light, seriously!) and destroys it, but too late to stop Ahsoka and Sinube from spotting them, at Ahsoka's command, two police droids catch Ioni, but Cassie uses the lightsaber to disable those who where trying to get her and runs away. She can't get in the train so she gets ontop of it, as does Ahsoka just as the train departs. Sinube snarks at Ioni about how rude it was to leave like that. Cassie uses the lightsaber to break on of the train's window and get inside where she takes a twi'lek woman and her child hostage. Ahsoka offer to trade herself fro them, but Cassie is afraid she'd use some trick on her and refuses. The train comes in at the next stop and the door opens on Sinube, who reveals that the top of his walking stick is actually his lightsaber and casually disarms Cassie. His lightsaber is a pale blue, almost white, that's neat. Ahsoka says that for a guy who moves slow, he always get ahead of her and he replies that the values of moving slowly is that one can always see where they're going. Oh, bollocks! There's no way you arrived _ahead of the train at the next stop_ without rushing, man! 
Ahsoka is glad to have her glowstick back, and gladder that the two civilians are safe.

Back at the Temple, Sinube has a last favour to ask from Ahsoka "pass on what you have learned".  :Small Amused:  He takes her to Yoda's classroom (turns out Yoda and Sinube are friends) and she starts telling the younglings about the importance of keeping their lightsaber safe. Hey, that's not the lesson! I know, it's only the preambule, but it's still funny to me that it looks like she hasn't learned a thing in this episode.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Right, that was a good one. I wouldn't call it my favourite, in part because I don't like making these kinds of calls, but also because there are some bit that aren't all that great: Bana Mu's character for one, and I'm not really clear as to why Ioni and Cassie killed Nak. Just to steal the lightsaber? Is it really that valuable? I mean it's a rare weapon sure, but there have been a lot of Jedi over the years, you'd think a good number of lightsaber would be in circulation. Come to think of it, what do the Jedi even do with the sabers of their deceased comrades? It's also quite clear that this is a longer story condensed in a 22-minute episode.

Sinube is a nice character, and I hope to see more of him, even in a reduced role. I like that they basically acknowledged that he's a Yoda clone by having them be friends (I wouldn't be surprised to learn he's based on an old concept for Yoda's appearance even).

Palpatine's billboard adress is interesting. Palpatine is Sidious's public face, but when you think about it, there are 4 Palapatines depending on who he's talking to: Palpatine who talks to the Jedi needs to appear like a good-intentioned politician who tries his best but can't stop the war, someone they wouldn't suspect of being a Sith, Palpatine who talks to Anakin needs to appear like a mentor figure and friend, to better lure him to the Dark Side, Senate Palpatine needs to appear like someone the Senators and other government officials would want in power for their own selfish gains and at the same time needs to manipulate the political scene to ensure the war drags on AND pass more and more authoritarian laws, finally, public Palpatine needs to appear like a wise, strong leader as well as turn the public opinion against the Jedi and the aliens. All to insure the transition to the Empire.
There is some overlap, of course as it's impossible for him to separate all four facets (Jedi watch the Senate meetings, for one) but still. Of all fours, I don't think we've ever seen public!Palpatine before, so it's kind of a shame that we don't get to hear his speech. From what I can make out, he seems to be emphasing the Jedi's role in starting the war, and maybe insinuating that they're trying to amass power? No doubt to pre-emptively justify the Jedi Purge.

I like the episode's focus on Ahsoka needing to slow down. The Jedi are all about discipline and self control (unlike the Sith who are more about unbridled passions and self gratification), but Ahsoka has joined the order in a time of war (which is also where we see them almost universally) which is more conductive to a "thunder and lightning" approach to problem-solving. So it's only natural (especially since Anakin, of all Jedi, is her master) that she'd resort to violence as her first solution (as seen when interrogating Bana Mu) and feel powerless when she's faced with a problem she can't slash in the face. That reminds me of _The Hand of Thrawn_, where Luke ponders wether relying too much on Force powers doesn't weaken Force perception and whether this is linked to the Light/Dark Side difference, an idea I would have liked to hear more about. Good stuff all around.

----------


## Fyraltari

*season 2, Episode 12: The Mandalore Plot* a.k.a. the one where the (first?) massive retcon happens

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

So there's apparently a council of neutral systems representing 1,500 worlds who refuse to take part in the war. Since this is a civil war isn't that _de facto_ supporting the rebellion? Anyway, the council's leader is Duchess Satine, monarch of Mandalore and there are rumors that she is actually building an army to join the Separatists so the Jedi send Obi-Wan Kenobi to assess the situation. And right off the bat, Mandalore looks gorgeous. The planet seems to consist of barren plains but the capital (and presumably the other cities) is inside a huge dome and consists of huge pillars both vertical and horizontal creating some cubic empty spaces, each column incorporates a lot of glass, it's very beautiful. Obi-Wan meets with the long-necked Prime Minister Almec who insists the rumours are false: all the warriors were exiled to the moon of Concordia (Hah!) where they died out long ago (nothing as peaceful as a little bit of genocide heh?). Obi-Wan mentions Jango Fett as counter-evidence but Almec denies Fett was even a real Mandalorian. The Duchess gets here with another advisor who isn't introduced and has one line but they cut him off. I guess he'll be important in a later episode. She feels insulted that Obi-Wan would suspect her of treason (it's pretty clear they've got some history) but he says that while he doesn't suspect her personally, a Mandalorian warrior fought for the Separatists recently and committed suicide to avoid interrogation. Satine calms down once Obi-wan clarifies he's been sent by the Order, not the Senate and she asks him to take a walk with her.

Once in private she admits that their new pacifist outlook has generated some push-back in the form of a group of "hooligans" called Death Watch who've created minor problems, so far the official investigation has tracked them down to the moon of Concordia (oh, where the warriors went to, what a coincidink!). We cut to Concordia where the leader of Death Watch is talking to Dooku via hologram, he's worried that the Jedi's presence means that the Republic will sent troops to Mandalore which will derail their planned coup d'état. Dooku reassures him: once the Republic troops arrive the Mandalorian people will see them as invaders and will rally to death Watch and the Separatists when they arrive which will, in turn, give them legitimacy. I like it, it's a solid, straightforward plan. Meanwhile Satine and Obi-Wan's conversation has drifted: he thinks that a peacekeeper's job is on the front lines and that it's unrealistic to expect them to stop conflict from happening, she poinls out that it sounds like he's abandoned his ideals. They are interrupted by an explosion. Satine tries to claim this is the work of an off-worlder but the Death Watch logo give the lie to that. Obi-Wan orders everybody present detained for questioning (on who's authority?) and, hearing that, the bomber (why is he even still there?) runs off to a nearby balcony. There's quick fight where Obi-wan has clearly the upper hand but just insists the other guy surrenders and that he won't be harmed. He answers in a foreign tongue and throws himself off the balcony. Oh no, if only there were someone present with the ability to remotely catch people in the air. Satine goes to the dying man and exchange some words of comfort (probably) with him as he passes. I like that their exchange isn't translated, you don't need to know what they're saying to _know_ what they're saying and that way you can imagine as poignant as it need to be. She tells Obi-Wan that the man was speaking in the Mandalorian dialect native to the moon of Concordia. Obi, quite logically decides that he needs to go there in the shortest delay. However since it's some kind of semi-independent province, with its own governor, Satine insists on coming along.

Over there they are greeted by Governor Vizla, who you can tell is evil because his face has too many angles. He's been leading the investigation on Death Watch. Obi-wan asks Satine to keep him occupied for a while, he's going to covertly investigate one of the (allegedly) abandoned mining facilities to look for Death Watch. He gives her an earpiece so they can stay in contact. They banter for a bit about how she's opposed to what he's doing but it's in good spirits. Once he arrives there he discovers that the facility has been mass-producing Mandalorian weapons and armours, however he is attacked and beaten by two Death Watchers. Meanwhile Satine is discussing the situation with Vizla, clearly Death Watch has received helped from outsiders. Vizla suggests that the Separatists are trying to undermine her because the council of neutral world is a threat to them, somehow? The Death Watchers strap Kenobi to a conveyor belt rather than shooting him dead so it'll look like an accident (but I thought the goal was to get the Republic involved? Wouldn't an obvious murder better achieve that goal?) and took his saber but failed to notice his earpiece. There's a fun scene where Satine has to talk to both Vizla and Obi-wan at the same time while trying to leave Vizla unaware, but the fact that _she's touching her earpiece_ makes it kind of conspicuous. She leaves to save him, apparently forgetting that she has bodyguards. She arrives just in time, creates a diversion by triggering an alarm and gets the machine to stop. She takes longer that Obi-Wan is comfortable with and he belittles her for it. Looks like the _Jedi Master_ needs to work on his zen. The guards come back but Obi-Wan beats them easily this time. Satine then accuses him of taking pleasure in the suffering of others and he accuses her of not caring whether or not he dies. Uh, what the hell are you two on about? Is there a scene missing?

Once they step out of the elevator they were in Obi-Wan realizes that this isn't the way they came in. How did you miss that? You didn't take an elevator coming in! They're in the middle of the base, so a handful of warriors come at them. Obi-wan grabs a blaster and beats them. Satine throws a rock. The commander orders his army to evacuate and executes one of the warriors Kenobi beat so that you know he's evil and reveals himself to be... Governor Vizla! Dun-dun-dun! He rants for a bit about how Satine has tarnished the legacy of the Mandalorians and then gives Obi-Wan his saber back. He, himself, draws a black lightsaber that was stolen by the Mandalorians during "the Fall of the Old republic", hey look, _Legends canon_! i think this is the first appearance of the Darksaber, right? they fight for a bit, but once it's clear Vizla is loosing he just gives up on the whole "honor-duel" thing and has his men fire homing missiles at Obi-wan and Satine, Obi-wan grabs her and they jump down the elevator shaft. Vizla gives up on pursuit for the time being. Satine says they're even : having both saved each other's life once. Obi-wan says his rescue was the most daring. Not sure if he means his rescue of her, or his rescue by her. Some time later, Obi-wan, Satine, Almec and other advisor guy are leaving (for Coruscant, I assume) and Anakin, Rex, Cody and some more clones show up for escort. Satine still hopes to stay out of the war and is offended when Obi-wan says he doesn't believe that's possible anymore.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Okay, so this episode is pretty standard, but that's okay. It obviously is here to set up a larger Mandalore plot by introducing the new characters (Satine, Vizla and the two advisors) as well as Satine's prior history with Obi-wan and what the Mandalorians are like now. Speaking of Kenobi and Satine, their interactions seemed like a concentration of Anakin and Obi-wan's interaction in the first season, going from dear friends to outright hostility seemingly without rhyme nor reason. There's also a theme of "pacifism vs just war" that's brewing there, it's not the first time it's shown up in this show and it won't be the last. I suspect this will keep being a thing for the next few episodes so I won't talk about it now. I'll just say that having Kenobi on the "just war" side feels... odd. Also, is it me or is Satine a clone of Padmé? Queen/Duchess of a remote world, leader of a Senatorial faction, vying for peace and pacifism (remember how Padmé didn't want to fight the Trade Federation back in TPM?) and (I have been told this) more-or-less romantically involved with a Jedi?

Right, without further ado, let's talk about the one thing that got people arguing over the Internet (spoilered for length):

*Spoiler: Mandalorians, new and old and Death Watch*
Show

So, if I know my _Star Wars_ history right, up until that point, Mandalorians were only ever shown as a total warrior culture where every member learns to fight from an early age, and earns a living as a mercenary/gun-for-hire while hoping to go to Space-Walhall or something. Meanwhile Death Watch was this group of evil Mandalorians who are brutal thugs fighting for money often against the Jedi, unlike the good Mandalorians who are brutal thugs fighting for money often against the Jedi, but goodly. So the decision to retcon it that, in fact, the good Mandalorians are pacifist and that the evil Death Watch was actually the same as the (former) good Mandalorians ruffed some feathers. Which is understandable. I, personally, like it. The thing about warrior cultures is that they're a lie. Either in or out of universe. The plain simple truth is that you can't build a civilization on violence. If everyone in your society is a warrior then you've got no one to make the food needed for your warriors to survive and no-one to make al the fancy toys the warriors are using. Think about it. There's a reason knights didn't forge their swords themselves. Being any good at metalsmithing takes a huge amout of practice and so does being any good at fighting. Now imagine how long it takes to be good at designing spaceships. And you can't have any sloppy design in your spaceships. I mean just look at the architecture we see in the episode, does that looks like it was designed by someone who spends all his afternoons practicing their fighting skills? Not to mention that if you teach all your people that the only way to have worth is to through battle, then you need at least one major conflict by generation. And that's not gonna do wonders for your demographics. Not to mention that everyone in your region is going to wise up and band together to give the lunatics a good whooping. Hey, maybe that's why the planet looks so barren outside the dome, too many Republican carpet-bombing after yet another idiotic alliance with the Sith. Which, when you think about it, make perfect sense as ally to the Mandalorians, the Sith Code and the Mandalorian way of life are very close in outlooks ("the thing that matters most is your personal strength" could be a quote from either group). Honestly, one of the good ideas of the Prequels (and I'm not even sure it was intentional) was to have the proto-stormtrooper be literal clones of a Mandalorian warrior creating a direct link between the Empire and the Mandalorians, because, again, their philosophy of worth-through-violence meshes very well with the real-life politics of the groups who inspired the Empire and it makes sense that _Rebels_ later shows them having joined with the Empire.

I went on quite a tangent there, but my point is, it makes sense for the Mandalorian to have had an underclass of workers all along, much like the Spartans had a demographic of 1 free man for every 7 to 20 slaves (depending on source). And there's only so many wars that said underclass would be willing to endure before they break out the vibro-guillotines and get rid of the parasites. And it's only logical that they would embrace pacifism as a reaction to their previous overlords. So yeah, I think this retcon was clever and I wish they'd had stuck with it.

----------


## hamishspence

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> And there's only so many wars that said underclass would be willing to endure before they break out the vibro-guillotines and get rid of the parasites.


These seem  to be the closest equivalent - the  _article_ is Legends, but the device is seen in TCW which is  part of the newcanon.

----------


## Peelee

*Spoiler: Non-canon Mandalorian culture*
Show

It's less that Mandalorians were a warrior culture, in that everyone was a warrior, and more than Mandalorians were a warrior culture, in that everyone was expected to fight if needed. There were farmers, blacksmiths, bakers, janitors, leaders, etc. etc. It's just that they were also all trained to fight and trained to have the same mentality as the dedicated warriors. You know how some countries have mandatory military service for like 6 months or so? Imagine, instead of that, it's mandatory military service for life. You're a baker, you have a bakery, you bake. You also don't stop practicing martial skills. Sure, you'll never be as good as the dedicated Mandalorian soldiers, but you're still a warrior in your own right, despite primarily being a baker. And the all of the people are like that, because it's not a species. It's a culture. You join because you want to live that way. Mandalorians take all people from all walks of life, so long as they agree to live as Mandalorians.

Also, Mandalorians outside of Mandalore or its colonies were relatively rare. Working as bounty hunters or mercenaries was seen as somewhat shameful, so not too many of them did. It's just that, due to how Mandalorians were, the few that did were remarkably successful and earned a well-deserved reputation (they also, more often than not, tended to be the more blood-hungry ones).


Of course, that's not canon anymore, but that's a much more nuanced version of how they were in Legends, rather than "all mercenaries and some farm".

ETA: Oh, also, clone troopers were not cloned off Mandalorians. Jango and Boba Fett were not Mandalorians. New canon may change that, remains to be seen. Don't even get me started on how many revisions Boba Fett went through throughout Lucas's mess that he called "canon" though.

----------


## Fyraltari

> These seem  to be the closest equivalent - the  _article_ is Legends, but the device is seen in TCW which is  part of the newcanon.


Why do I even bother making jokes anymore?



> *Spoiler: Non-canon Mandalorian culture*
> Show
> 
> It's less that Mandalorians were a warrior culture, in that everyone was a warrior, and more than Mandalorians were a warrior culture, in that everyone was expected to fight if needed. There were farmers, blacksmiths, bakers, janitors, leaders, etc. etc. It's just that they were also all trained to fight and trained to have the same mentality as the dedicated warriors. You know how some countries have mandatory military service for like 6 months or so? Imagine, instead of that, it's mandatory military service for life. You're a baker, you have a bakery, you bake. You also don't stop practicing martial skills. Sure, you'll never be as good as the dedicated Mandalorian soldiers, but you're still a warrior in your own right, despite primarily being a baker. And the all of the people are like that, because it's not a species. It's a culture. You join because you want to live that way. Mandalorians take all people from all walks of life, so long as they agree to live as Mandalorians.
> 
> Also, Mandalorians outside of Mandalore or its colonies were relatively rare. Working as bounty hunters or mercenaries was seen as somewhat shameful, so not too many of them did. It's just that, due to how Mandalorians were, the few that did were remarkably successful and earned a well-deserved reputation (they also, more often than not, tended to be the more blood-hungry ones).
> 
> 
> Of course, that's not canon anymore, but that's a much more nuanced version of how they were in Legends, rather than "all mercenaries and some farm".


So it's not that they're all warriors, it's just that they're all warriors on the side? I'm sorry but that doesn't really fix anything. Especially if they're all supposed to still espouse the same philosophy as the warriors.




> ETA: Oh, also, clone troopers were not cloned off Mandalorians. Jango and Boba Fett were not Mandalorians. New canon may change that, remains to be seen. Don't even get me started on how many revisions Boba Fett went through throughout Lucas's mess that he called "canon" though.


I'm sorry, what!?

----------


## Peelee

> So it's not that they're all warriors, it's just that they're all warriors on the side? I'm sorry but that doesn't really fix anything. Especially if they're all supposed to still espouse the same philosophy as the warriors.


Yeah. You know how even architects will have some sort of hobby or recreation outside of work? For Mandalorians, that recreation is martial recreation.

Also, while they didn't have major conflicts every generation, they weren't shy about it. And yes, that did keep demographics down, which is at least one reason why Mandalorians weren't terribly well-represented or didn't present a major faction in the Galactic Republic.



> I'm sorry, what!?


Goerge Lucas giveth, and Goerge Lucas taketh away.

----------


## dancrilis

> Vizla suggests that the Separatists are trying to undermine her because the council of neutral world is a threat to them, somehow?


This might be to obvious an answer but if a council of neutral worlds can exist then you don't need a military separatist movement ... you could just leave by declaring neutrality.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Goerge Lucas giveth, and Goerge Lucas taketh away.


But, the Mandalorians are introduced as being Bobbas people! That would be like if Obi-WAN turned out not to be a Jedi! Also I cant tell if your misspelling of « George » is intentional.



> This might be to obvious an answer but if a council of neutral worlds can exist then you don't need a military separatist movement ... you could just leave by declaring neutrality.


But they havent left, have they? The neutral worlds are still part of the Republic?

----------


## hamishspence

> But, the Mandalorians are introduced as being Bobbas people!


Boba's _armour_ was Mandalorian in the TESB novel, though the name itself didn't appear till tie-in material. It wasn't so clear if _he_ was.




> A battered and tarnished chrome-colored droid named IG-88 was also with the group, standing next to the notorious Boba Fett. A human bounty hunter, Fett was known for his extremely ruthless methods. He was dressed in a weapon-covered, armored spacesuit, the kind worn by a group of evil warriors defeated by the Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars. A few braided scalps completed his unsavory image. The very sight of Boba Fett sent a shudder of revulsion through the admiral.


EU sometimes portrayed _him_ as Mandalorian (then, when he turned out to be a clone, _Jango_ as Mandalorian) but Lucas saw the EU as a separate thing  - to be drawn on occasionally when convenient, but otherwise ignored.

Thus, in an early TCW episode (Season 2?) a Mandalorian says:

_"Jango Fett was a common bounty hunter. How he acquired that armour is beyond me."_

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## dancrilis

> But they havenÂt left, have they? The neutral worlds are still part of the Republic?


Mandalore to memory is not part of the Republic - I don't know about the other systems.

So I suppose that it is possible that none of the systems are part of the Republic and so they are not relevant to the seperation question.

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## Fyraltari

> Boba's _armour_ was Mandalorian in the TESB novel, though the name itself didn't appear till tie-in material. It wasn't so clear if _he_ was.
> 
> 
> 
> EU sometimes portrayed _him_ as Mandalorian (then, when he turned out to be a clone, _Jango_ as Mandalorian) but Lucas saw the EU as a separate thing  - to be drawn on occasionally when convenient, but otherwise ignored.
> 
> Thus, in an early TCW episode (Season 2?) a Mandalorian says:
> 
> _"Jango Fett was a common bounty hunter. How he acquired that armour is beyond me."_


That's the episode, I just reviewed, but in context it's also pretty clear that Almec and Satine are downplaying the violent elements still present in Mando society to a point that strains credibility.



> Mandalore to memory is not part of the Republic - I don't know about the other systems.
> 
> So I suppose that it is possible that none of the systems are part of the Republic and so they are not relevant to the seperation question.


But then what's the point in Dooku wanting Death Watch controlled Mandalore to join the Separatists?

----------


## Peelee

> That's the episode, I just reviewed, but in context it's also pretty clear that Almec and Satine are downplaying the violent elements still present in Mando society to a point that strains credibility.
> 
> But then what's the point in Dooku wanting Death Watch controlled Mandalore to join the Separatists?


Inconsistent or nonsensical writing and p[lot developments? In Star Wars prequel and sequel content? Say it ain't so! :Small Wink:

----------


## AMX

> But then what's the point in Dooku wanting Death Watch controlled Mandalore to join the Separatists?


Because he thinks a military intervention by those 1500 non-Republic systems would let him win the civil war?

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## Fyraltari

> Because he thinks a military intervention by those 1500 non-Republic systems would let him win the civil war?


What is he going to do the exact same plot with all 1,500 of them? Because, I think even the Jedi, perceptive as they are, would smell something when they reach the 800s.

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## McNum

> What is he going to do the exact same plot with all 1,500 of them? Because, I think even the Jedi, perceptive as they are, would smell something when they reach the 800s.


Good. More dead Jedi, then.

Remember, the Clone Wars is a trap. All of it. It's a "just" war meant to draw out the Jedi and kill them. From that angle, it makes perfect sense to cause more trouble for the Jedi. Stretch them even thinner. Then kill them.

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## Fyraltari

> Good. More dead Jedi, then.
> 
> Remember, the Clone Wars is a trap. All of it. It's a "just" war meant to draw out the Jedi and kill them. From that angle, it makes perfect sense to cause more trouble for the Jedi. Stretch them even thinner. Then kill them.


How exactly does that work? I mean even assuming he can find a rebellion on each of these planets, there's no guarantee that the Jedi would get involved in each case. Nor that any of them would die. Sounds more like it's the separatists who would be stretched thin.

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## AMX

> What is he going to do the exact same plot with all 1,500 of them? Because, I think even the Jedi, perceptive as they are, would smell something when they reach the 800s.


Why would he need to subvert all 1500 individually, when they have some kind of council he can focus on?
And why would he need to use the same method every time?

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## Keltest

> Why would he need to subvert all 1500 individually, when they have some kind of council he can focus on?
> And why would he need to use the same method every time?


The neutral systems are defined by their unwillingness to enter the war. Changing that, even if he goes after the council, would basically require a military overthrow of each planet's governments. If he subverts the council to get them to enter the war, they would just ignore the councilmembers and put different ones in place.

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## dancrilis

> But then what's the point in Dooku wanting Death Watch controlled Mandalore to join the Separatists?


If Death Watch are happy to join the separatists that is good for the seperatists (one more system) - that might be seperate from the independent systems being considered a threat.

For example 'Seperatist System 42' might be looking at a costly war with The Republic and decide that they should break with the Seperatists and merely declare non-violent independance - the independant systems offer a model for how to be an independent system and possible a group they can join to have some protection, if The Republic accepts that then the entire seperatist movement is in doubt.

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## Keltest

> If Death Watch are happy to join the separatists that is good for the seperatists (one more system) - that might be seperate from the independent systems being considered a threat.
> 
> For example 'Seperatist System 42' might be looking at a costly war with The Republic and decide that they should break with the Seperatists and merely declare non-violent independance - the independant systems offer a model for how to be an independent system and possible a group they can join to have some protection, if The Republic accepts that then the entire seperatist movement is in doubt.


The CNS members were still part of the republic. They were largely systems that didnt want to secede from the republic but still wanted relations with individual systems of the CIS or otherwise opposed the war effort entirely.

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## Sapphire Guard

I doubt Lucas had much to do with Mandalorian lore either way.

How could they make Obi's death look like an accident if the mine was supposedly shut down? So, our investigating Jedi wandered into the mine and started playing with the crushing machines?

Dooku wants to trigger a Republic invasion of Mandalore so he can say, 'look, the Republic doesn't respect your neutrality, I will come in and save you'

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## Aeson

Regarding the thing about neutral systems, I would point out that such a thing has historical precedent within the past 200 years: the  state of Kentucky elected to remain a part of the Union but declared  itself neutral in the US Civil War, and its government remained officially neutral until General Polk occupied Columbus.

As to the suggestion that such  neutrality is treasonous, that really depends on how power is shared  between the galactic and system governments under the Republic - there  are certainly real-world governmental models under which it could be the  local government's right to decline to participate in the war - and I  would further point out that a similar argument can be made regarding  conscientious objectors.

Beyond that,  depending on how the laws of the Republic are set up, the legality of  the war to crush the Separatists may be open to question, especially as  the war was to appearances initiated by the Jedi rather than by an act  of the Senate or by an overt hostile act undertaken by the Separatists  against the Republic or a member state which did not intend to secede.  The government may not like it, but it is not treasonous to refuse to  support it in acting illegally against its own member states - though it  may very well be unwise, even if the government cannot afford to  retaliate for the perceived disloyalty immediately.

As to whether  or not the existence of neutral systems breaks continuity, it's hard to  say; I certainly don't recall any mention of neutral systems in the  Prequel Trilogy, but on the other hand the Military Creation Act (MCA)  appears to have been contentious and only a very naive observer could  believe that the army which invaded Geonosis could have been raised in  the time between the passage of the MCA and the army's arrival over  Geonosis; furthermore, the Jedi do not appear to have the express  authorization of the Senate for their actions on Geonosis, nor is it  clear that they even informed the Senate of what they were doing until  after it was far too late for the Senate to do anything about it. Given  that, I can see where 'neutral' Republic member systems might come from and where they might have legal basis for their neutrality.

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## Mechalich

It's important to note that actual members of the CIS claimed 'neutrality' throughout the Clone Wars and were even allowed to retain representation in the Senate during the conflict. The key figure here being Lott Dod, the Senator representing the Trade Federation who is shown directly taking orders from Dooku on multiple occasions but was somehow still a Senator in good standing. The 'neutrality' espoused by the CNS was much, much less contentious than that. 

CNS neutrality was mostly an economic matter. Specifically, they wanted to avoid paying taxes to fund the war effort and also wanted to retain the right to conduct free trade with systems that had declared for the CIS (many faced severe economic hardship otherwise). Because the Clone Wars was primarily (especially in the Disney Canon) fought by proxy forces, the contribution of most systems to the conflict was entirely economic. Allegiance, therefore, was largely a matter of which side a system sent its checks too, and the CNS was comprised of systems who basically didn't want to send them to anyone.

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## Fyraltari

Sorry I haven't posted one of these in a while, I had to deal with a lot of stuff, nothing serious but stressful and time consuming so I haven't really had the time or energy to write a few paragraphs of review. Anyway,

*Season 2, Episode 13: Voyage of Temptation*
*Spoiler: Recap*
Show


We start where we last left off as Anakin and Obi-Wan escort Satine to Coruscant to "plead her case" not sure if it's convincing the Senate she intends to stay neutral or to stop the war. Both, probably. Our Jedi duo order some clones to keep an eye out for Death Watch, probably backed by Separatists and head out to the reception area where Satine is entertaining her guests, the advisor guy from the last episode is apparently the senator for Mandalore: Tal Merrik. Obi-Wan basically confess to Anakin he and Satine used to be a couple way back when. Also present are Padmé's rodian "uncle", Orn Free Tah and a human Senator. Satine is talking about how she's the designated regent of 1,500 systems and thousands of worlds (huh?) and that war is an affront to life. Obi-wan claims that a good offense is the best defense (how unjedi-like). This earns him an introduction as a "collection of half-truths and hyperboles." Point Satine! They argue for a bit about war and pacifism (still weird to see Obi-Wan on the war side) with Satine calling out the Jedi on their militarization. Also Obi-wan calls Anakin "Master skywalker". Arrrh. Satine and Obi-wan argument looks too much like a lovers' spat for Anakin to keep an entirely straight face, and the Senators call a truce for dinner.

Meanwhile the clones are checking the ship's hangar which, for some reason, isn't illuminated so they have to use the headlights. This does not help when they are attacked by a separatist droid hidden onboard. Some spider-like thing that seems convinced it's the antagonist of a slasher movie. Obi-Wan explains to Anakin how he and Qui-Gon spent a year protecting Satine during a local civil war and that it was a difficult decision for him to leave when the time came. He laments how hard the "no attachment" rule is. Anakin struggles a bit with Obi-Wan's decision but leaves when Rex tells them some of their men are missing and R2 is acting up. Anakin and the clones find the crate where the droid was hiding and destroy it. (After it tried to use a clone's corpse in the most pathetic attempt at deception in the serie so far, and that's saying a lot.) However a second machine escapes through the lift towards the politicians. It knocks out two Mandalorian guards but Obi-Wan disables it before it harms anyone.

Anakin realizes another might be missing but before they can investigate both wrecks start spewing miniature spider assassin droids. Satine defends herself with a gun deactivator stating "just because I'm a pacifist doesn't mean I won't defend myself." So, 100% agreement with the Jedi, then, as Kenobi points out? Both swarms are relatively easily taken out (one dead clone). This reminds Satine and Obi-Wan of an old adventure and they have a cute moment. Anakin discovers that the crate was brought in using the Senate's stamp of approval so a Senator has to be complicit in the attack. Obi-Wan captures a surviving mini-assassin and thinks up a plan to discover the traitor, while Anakin pursues the remaining droid. Obi-wan's plan is remarkably simple, he put the droid in a glass casing and presents it to each Senator, reasoning that it will be programmed not to try to harm its ally. It works and exposes Tal Merrik, who frees the droid and uses the confusion to take Satine hostage.

Anakin, Rex and Cody dispatch the last droid while Merrik butchers the ship's captain and some Senate Guards. Merrik takes the ship out of hyperspace and contacts Death Watch for reinforcement and escape. They send him some boarding ships full of superdroids. Oh come on, what kind of warrior-culture terrorist organization doesn't fight its own battles!? Anyhoo, the clones and Mandalorian fight them. the Mando guards do a surprisingly good job, these poles they have turning out to be some kind of rifles as well as tasers. Not the most practical design but I dig it. Anakin joins the fight while Obi-wan goes to save the woman who he insists isn't his girlfriend. He wins handily.

Merrik meanwhile traded his gun for a detonator: he wired the ship to explode. This forces Obi-wan to let him go, even though he follows. Satine calls Kenobi "Obi", which is cute. Merrik tells Satine to say goodbye to Obi-Wan and so she does. And confess her love for him. Merrik's face is priceless. Obi-wan admits he'd have left the Order for her. Merrik finds that sickening. This offends Satine so she steps on his foot and steal his gun. Why didn't you do that before? Merrik isn't afraid, though. He'll blow up the ship from a distance. He says that if Satine kills him she exposes herself as an hypocrite to her very pacifist ideals (not the one she outlined earlier, though) and if Obi-wan kills him, Satine will lose her respect for him. He asks then which one of them will brand themselves a cold-blooded killer. And Anakin stabs him in the back as a few notes of _The imperial March_ play. "What? He was going to blow up the ship!" Satine and Kenobi then act like they didn't confess anything earlier.

On Coruscant, Palaptine greets them, and Satine and Obi-Wan parts on good terms. She tells him he should shave his beard as it "hides too much of [his] handsome face."


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show


So. Tal Merrik, was an okay villain. One-bit but serviceable. He's a Death Watch supporter, that's it. Though his jerkiness (finding love sickening, being borderline flattered to be called a monster) was a bit much.

Anakin's dark side moment was nice. I'll say more about his fall when giving my thoughts on the season/serie as a whole, but I'll say that I liked it better than last time, in part due to his unapologecticness unapologecticity unapologectichood unapologetic attitude.

I would say that Satine is an interesting character, but... She's Padmé. No, really. She's a Jedi love interest who he met years ago when protecting her (with Qui-Gon) during a military crisis, she's the leader of her planet and the head of a political movement opposed to the war (and she's opposed to violence in general) and she's a surprisingly good fighter. The only point missing is the never-ending wardrobe. So, yeah, she's Obi-wan's Padmé.
I don't think the writers figured out how far her pacifism goes, though. Is she willing to fight to defend others or not? Also her debates with Obi-Wan seems to shift as his position is murky too.

But really this episode is all about Obi-Wan. We're finally seeing some cracks in Mr. Perfect Jedi's shining image. Turns out he, just like both of his apprentices, struggled with letting go of his attachments and almost quit the Order. ('coz yeah, this was totally an option for Anakin. One that would have solved all his problems. Hell, he could even have re-engaged into the Republic Army and they'd have given him his rank back in a snap.) That's very good, the Jedi live by hard principles and it'd be ridiculous for Obi-Wan, Yoda or any other _not_ to struggle with them. Especially for Qui-Gon's student and Luke & Anakin's Master. Of course the difference is that, in the end, Obi-wan chose the Order before his own happiness, the wisdom of which is debatable.

Also it's nice to see Obi-Wan confide in Anakin. Like friends do.

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## Keltest

Im a fan of the character development that Obi-wan gets during this arc, though i could do without Satine. As you say, she's kind of a rerun of Padme, and her kinda-sorta pacifist ideals both clashed with my mental image of the Mandalorians, and confused me as to what she actually stands FOR.

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## dancrilis

> Im a fan of the character development that Obi-wan gets during this arc, though i could do without Satine. As you say, she's kind of a rerun of Padme, and her kinda-sorta pacifist ideals both clashed with my mental image of the Mandalorians, and confused me as to what she actually stands FOR.


Without giving away spoilers how would you have done Obi-Wan's arc without Satiine? 
*Spoiler: Low Level Spoiler*
Show

They could have made her different but she kindof needed to be there.

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## Keltest

> Without giving away spoilers how would you have done Obi-Wan's arc without Satiine? 
> *Spoiler: Low Level Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> They could have made her different but she kindof needed to be there.


I mean, just give her a different character type. Dont have her be the crazy unworkable pacifist type she ended up as.

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## Fyraltari

> Im a fan of the character development that Obi-wan gets during this arc, though i could do without Satine. As you say, she's kind of a rerun of Padme, and her kinda-sorta pacifist ideals both clashed with my mental image of the Mandalorians, and confused me as to what she actually stands FOR.


People aren't homogenous, I have no problem with the idea of a pacifist Mando but her ideals are too poorly defined. It'd have been better if they had decided to have her an absolute not-even-in-self-defense kind of pacifist I think. I'm also not entirely sure _Star Wars_ is the right franchise to have a war/peace debate, because
A) It thrives on black-and-white morality with a side full of bad guys and a side full of good guys who fight for ill-defined reasons and 
B) It's an action franchise, it needs its heroes to fight people so its decked is stacked against the pacifists from the word go.

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## Keltest

> People aren't homogenous, I have no problem with the idea of a pacifist Mando but her ideals are too poorly defined. It'd have been better if they had decided to have her an absolute not-even-in-self-defense kind of pacifist I think. I'm also not entirely sure _Star Wars_ is the right franchise to have a war/peace debate, because
> A) It thrives on black-and-white morality with a side full of bad guys and a side full of good guys who fight for ill-defined reasons and 
> B) It's an action franchise, it needs its heroes to fight people so its decked is stacked against the pacifists from the word go.


Of a single pacifist Mando? Sure, i can buy that. Of their leader? That starts to strain credulity. I very much got the sensation that they were trying to retcon who the Mandalorians were compared to the old EU with this arc, and i wasnt very into it.

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## Fyraltari

> Of a single pacifist Mando? Sure, i can buy that. Of their leader? That starts to strain credulity. I very much got the sensation that they were trying to retcon who the Mandalorians were compared to the old EU with this arc, and i wasnt very into it.


Since Obi-Wan says there was a civil war when she came to power and of the three members of her government, two (so far) turned out to disapprove of it, I think one can say that they were introducing some complexity to Mandalorian culture. A retcon to be sure but one that points out the logical consequence to the Mandalorians unhealthy fixation on warfare rather that claim it didnt exist.

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## Keltest

> Since Obi-Wan says there was a civil war when she came to power and of the three members of her government, two (so far) turned out to disapprove of it, I think one can say that they were introducing some complexity to Mandalorian culture. A retcon to be sure but one that points out the logical consequence to the Mandalorians unhealthy fixation on warfare rather that claim it didnt exist.


Oh, that reminds me. How did the pacifists win the civil war? Like, come on. Theyre pacifists, theyre literally defined by their unwillingness to use violence. And if everybody in her government are secretly still big in the warrior culture, it still doesnt explain how she actually ended up in charge. A coup shouldnt have been necessary in the first place if she was that unpopular.

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## dancrilis

> Oh, that reminds me. How did the pacifists win the civil war? Like, come on. Theyre pacifists, theyre literally defined by their unwillingness to use violence. And if everybody in her government are secretly still big in the warrior culture, it still doesnt explain how she actually ended up in charge. A coup shouldnt have been necessary in the first place if she was that unpopular.


If Person A wants war with Person B and Person B wants war with Person C and Person C wants war with Person A then Person D who doesn't want a war might make a case for a period of peace while everyone else works out how the war should start as no individual group wants to overextend themselves knowing that there are people who will take advantage of a weakened position.

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## Keltest

> If Person A wants war with Person B and Person B wants war with Person C and Person C wants war with Person A then Person D who doesn't want a war might make a case for a period of peace while everyone else works out how the war should start as no individual group wants to overextend themselves knowing that there are people who will take advantage of a weakened position.


But the war already started. And ended. So how does that result in a pacifist victory?

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## dancrilis

> But the war already started. And ended. So how does that result in a pacifist victory?


They might be considered a safe pair of hands for the warring factions to agree to allow to have power while they build up their forces.

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## Keltest

> They might be considered a safe pair of hands for the warring factions to agree to allow to have power while they build up their forces.


The fact that they are attempting to kill her would suggest that they do not consider her a particularly safe pair of hands to have power.

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## dancrilis

> The fact that they are attempting to kill her would suggest that they do not consider her a particularly safe pair of hands to have power.


Just because they thought she might be alright doesn't mean they still would if they say her having an impact - and that ignores that just because the majority of people might say think she is ok doesn't mean rogue elements won't still exist.

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## Lord Vukodlak

> Oh, that reminds me. How did the pacifists win the civil war? Like, come on. Theyre pacifists, theyre literally defined by their unwillingness to use violence. And if everybody in her government are secretly still big in the warrior culture, it still doesnt explain how she actually ended up in charge. A coup shouldnt have been necessary in the first place if she was that unpopular.


One side wants to wage war for glory against other worlds the other side. only wants to use war as a means of self-defense. To put it another way, one side wanted to be the conquering horde the other wanted to be like Switzerland. They're pacifists in their opposition to Militarism not to all forms of violence.

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## Fyraltari

> Oh, that reminds me. How did the pacifists win the civil war? Like, come on. Theyre pacifists, theyre literally defined by their unwillingness to use violence. And if everybody in her government are secretly still big in the warrior culture, it still doesnt explain how she actually ended up in charge. A coup shouldnt have been necessary in the first place if she was that unpopular.


The prime minister said that they exiled the warriors, so it sounds like the civil war was fought to get rid of the wrrior ruling class. then they settled on a pacifist government going forward.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 2, Episode 14: Duchess of Mandalore*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

So, it turns out that what Satine exactly wants on Coruscant is to convince the Republic that Death Watch is a small enough threat that it can be dealt with locally, without Republic military intervention. Which is a good idea because the Separatists'/Death Watch's plan is still to frame such an intervention as an occupation and to stroll in as liberators. Dooku and Vizla discuss it, and Dooku has Vizla send an assassin to kill Satine on Coruscant both to shut her up and to scare the Senate. A Madalorian soldier discovers their base and inform Prime Minister Long-Neck Almek. They conclude that DW needs popular support to have a chance to win but they can only hope that Satine will manage to deescalate things in Coruscant. She does an okay job reassuring everyone until Palps produces a recording of "Deputy Minister Jerryck" claiming that Satine's government is lying to the people about DW's true numbers and are playing harp while Rome Mandalore burns instead of asking for the needed Republic aid. Jerryck can't be reached for further explanations as he's just died in a Death Watch attack on Kalevala. How inconvenient. At least the poetry must have been good. Palps calls for intervention and orders a vote on the issue for the next session.

Obi-Wan is worried for Satine and tries to reach out to her as a friend (they're still awkward about their declarations of love last episode) but he ends up sounding patronizing and she lashes out her frustration about the Republic on him. I like this argument, while Satine is obviously being unfair here, Obi-Wan was clumsy and a bit presumptuous and the context explains her reaction. She's angry, he's hurt, they're both in the wrong. Her speeder was sabotaged by the assassin however and the pilot ends up crashing in a building. He manages to save her life by bringing the speeder close enough to a platform for her bodyguards and her to jump on it (these things should really include some sort of parachute). The bodyguards form a kind of human cocoon to protect her which is funny to me. Pilot's dead though. Palpatine refuses to investigate the "accident" this angers Satine further which Mas Amedda uses to trick her into sounding like she can't handle Death Watch and the Republic's intervention is necessary. On her way out she meets Obi-Wan again who is even more worried for her. She is done trusting the Republic to do anything and thinks that this attack proves she's on the right track. He's worried for her safety but she insists on investigating herself as she has a contact in the ministry of Intelligence. He is worried she doesn't trust him and says she shouldn't stop relying on her friends to help her (I mean, two betrayals and one murder in, what? three days? will do that to ya). Padmé interrupts: the Senate had an emergency meeting while she was in Palpatine's office (can they do that without the chancellor and whatever Amedda's job is?) and voted in favor of intervention. Troops will leave for Mandalore before sunrise. Most. Efficient. Bureaucracy. Ever. "Counting on the Republic is a mistake" concludes Satine.

Satine meets with her ally who confirms the recording of Jerryck was edited (he doesn't know by whom) and gives her the real deal. He's immediately shot by the Death Watch assassin. Before he can shot her as well, a police droids shows up and sees Satine with her own gun in hand and concludes she's a murderer. The police chases her while completely ignoring the man shooting at her. Where did they train? Vivec City? She fools the police into thinking she stole a speeder and is flying to section IG-44 (I wonder if that brand of assassin droid showed up anywhere). Satine is now actively wanted by the police on the whole planet. She contacts Obi-Wan and they meet on a plaza of sort where is exposed what I can only guess to be the last natural rock formation on the planet. Kenobi at first wants her to surrender herself but she quickly explains the situation, especially if she's arrested the real recording will end up in the hands of whoever edited the the fake one and will most likely be destroyed. Her plan is for Obi-Wan to give the recording to Amidala while she creates a diversion by surrendering to the Senate Guard so he can enter without being searched because of their... "association". Kenobi doesn't believe they'd search a Jedi, being above the law and all, but she says things are changing. 

The assassin attacks them, separating them with a grenade and then strolling menacingly towards Satine without even pointing his gun at her as if he hadn't already failed twice to kill her. Obi-Wan fights him but loses his lightsaber (Buy. A Wrist. Strap. You. Bloody. Miser.) so Satine has to toss it to him ( :Elan:  I helped!). Kenobi pins the man to a wall and (stupidly) throws him over the railing (why?) which allows him to activate his jetpack and flee. Satine's plan work flawlessly and we get to see her outfit without being obscure by a heavy cloak (I like it much more than her "official" attire. Mainly because there's much less weirdness going on with her hair). For some reason the Senate is still in session and talking about Mandalore even (do these people ever sleep?). Padmé brings up the real recording, which, of course validates Satine, while Palpatne scowls. Cut to Vizsla who enters a room where Dooku was holographically turning his back to the projector for reasons beyond mortal ken and yells at the Sith. Tyranus calms him down by promising their goal will be achieved through other means. Amedda and Palpatine apologize to Satine and she and Obi-Wan congratulate each other before wondering who was behind all of that.

*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show



I like this one, a nice political intrigue is just what Satine's character needed to show her strength rather than a straight-up adventure where Obi-Wan's... Gordian approach is better suited. This episode also introduces a difference between her and Padmé: Padmé still believes in the Republic but Satine doesn't. Obi-Wan got to shirk his duty for a bit to do what was right, something he was quicker to do than I'd thought, but maybe it was just because helping Satine was so obviously the right choice. I do wonder what Dooku has in store for the next episode though. Also, I think that in _Legends_, Mas Amedda was a true Republican who was manipulated by Palpatine and removed from power basically  the moment the Empire was established while in new-canon he was Palpatine's right-hand man in the intrigue side of things and became Grand Vizier. Here it wasn't clear if he was in on the conspiracy and this show was clearly willing to retcon stuff so I wonder which it is.

----------


## Keltest

One thing i dont really get is what value occupying Mandalore actually has for either the Republic or the Separatists. Theyre a neutral system, so they arent really critical to either side's war effort, the acting government are pacifists and they nominally dont have an army, they they cant really be useful for marching to war, and Death Watch already seems to be siding with the separatists, so to the extent that they can help with the war effort, theyre already basically doing so. The resources needed for a military occupation of Mandalore would greatly outweigh the support Death Watch alone would give if they went off world as well, so whats actually the goal here?

----------


## Fyraltari

> One thing i dont really get is what value occupying Mandalore actually has for either the Republic or the Separatists. Theyre a neutral system, so they arent really critical to either side's war effort, the acting government are pacifists and they nominally dont have an army, they they cant really be useful for marching to war, and Death Watch already seems to be siding with the separatists, so to the extent that they can help with the war effort, theyre already basically doing so. The resources needed for a military occupation of Mandalore would greatly outweigh the support Death Watch alone would give if they went off world as well, so whats actually the goal here?


To get them to join either side I would say. Im not sure where you get the « dont have an army » part from, these guys with the laser-batons look pretty militaristic to me, everybody agrees that Death Watch cant conquer the planet on their own and frankly if any planet in the far far away galaxy can be expected to militarize quickly itd be Mandalore. Mandalore would participate to the war effort like any other planets: manufacturing weapons, bringing in money and possible levies and most importantly weaken the Neutral Systems (if even their leader cant stay out of the war surely they cant either).

Also Death Watch arent helping the Separatists so far, quite the opposite. Theyll only help once they have Mandalore in their grip.

And of course the Sith just want to spray **** as far and wide as they can.

----------


## Keltest

> To get them to join either side I would say. Im not sure where you get the « dont have an army » part from, these guys with the laser-batons look pretty militaristic to me, everybody agrees that Death Watch cant conquer the planet on their own and frankly if any planet in the far far away galaxy can be expected to militarize quickly itd be Mandalore. Mandalore would participate to the war effort like any other planets: manufacturing weapons, bringing in money and possible levies and most importantly weaken the Neutral Systems (if even their leader cant stay out of the war surely they cant either).
> 
> Also Death Watch arent helping the Separatists so far, quite the opposite. Theyll only help once they have Mandalore in their grip.
> 
> And of course the Sith just want to spray **** as far and wide as they can.


IIRC, they claim to have exiled all the warriors as part of their pacifistic reformation.

----------


## BRC

> One thing i dont really get is what value occupying Mandalore actually has for either the Republic or the Separatists. Theyre a neutral system, so they arent really critical to either side's war effort, the acting government are pacifists and they nominally dont have an army, they they cant really be useful for marching to war, and Death Watch already seems to be siding with the separatists, so to the extent that they can help with the war effort, theyre already basically doing so. The resources needed for a military occupation of Mandalore would greatly outweigh the support Death Watch alone would give if they went off world as well, so whats actually the goal here?


1) It's an industrialized planet with a large population, economically that's a big boost.

2) IIRC, Mandalore's martial culture is pretty ingrained. Even if the Pacifist movement got most people to put away their blasters, and they don't have much of a standing army, they probably have a sizable number of experienced combatants that could be mobilized. 

But mostly it's Star Wars and things don't make that much sense. 

RE: Mandalorian Pacifism, 

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC (and checking Wookiepedia)

There was the "New Mandalorian Movement", which was an anti-militaristic reform movement, but not strictly Pacifist, just seeking to move Mandalore away from it's traditional martial culture. When Satine became Duchess, she aligned her government with the New Mandalorians. 

This led to a brutal civil war, which the reformists won. However, witnessing the death and violence of that conflict turned Satine into a Pacifist, which was a step beyond the New Mandalorians. 

So, Satine was a pacifist, but many people in her government (And the people who fought the civil war on her behalf) were probably not Pacifists, and may have bridled as Satine went beyond "We should stop glorifying warfare" to "Violence is always bad and we must reject it in all it's forms".


By "Exiled the Warriors", they seem to be referring to the losing side in the civil war, rather than "Everybody who can fight". The people who refused to get in line behind the New Mandalorian reforms.

----------


## Peelee

> Wookiepedia


Wookiee. 2 E's.

----------


## Fyraltari

> IIRC, they claim to have exiled all the warriors as part of their pacifistic reformation.


They got rid of the warriors, yes, but they apparently have soldiers left. I mean, it seems pretty clear that the warriors didnt just leave once asked politely to do so.

----------


## Keltest

> They got rid of the warriors, yes, but they apparently have soldiers left. I mean, it seems pretty clear that the warriors didnt just leave once asked politely to do so.


Yeah, and the fact that they now cant just up and get rid of them is kind of the instigator of the plot. I dont think its an unreasonable assumption that they dont have a readily available military.

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## Fyraltari

> Yeah, and the fact that they now cant just up and get rid of them is kind of the instigator of the plot. I dont think its an unreasonable assumption that they dont have a readily available military.


It's been how long since Vizla showed his true colors again?

----------


## Keltest

> It's been how long since Vizla showed his true colors again?


Heck if i know, i never got to see the episodes in order. I have seen them all, but they were certainly not in the way it was intended. Thats part of the source of my genuine confusion here.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Heck if i know, i never got to see the episodes in order. I have seen them all, but they were certainly not in the way it was intended. Thats part of the source of my genuine confusion here.


I'd say less than a week, honestly.

----------


## Aeson

I am pretty sure that the idea with the Separatists' Mandalore plot is less that control of Mandalore itself is important and more that getting the Republic to intercede in the internal affairs of a neutral system when that system's government specifically and publicly requested that it not do so could provoke the other neutral systems into joining the Separatists to avoid being trampled by the Republic in the same way; Mandalore itself was chosen mostly because it seems to hold a major leadership role in the neutrality movement and so it getting stepped on by the Republic makes big waves whereas the Republic squashing some little neutral backwater might be overlooked.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 2, Episode 15: Senate Murders*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The Senate is debating a bill to increase clone production and send more troops to the front. The main opposition to that bill comes from Padmé's rodian "uncle", senator Farr. Padmé gives a speech to support him that she and her political allies are confident will earn them the needed votes (they are afraid the spending will hurt the Republic's economy and that the increased hostility will negatively affect their diplomatic efforts). In response, a senator with features so sharp I first thought it was another alien species calls her "antipatriotic". She calls him a warmonger and moves on. She, Farr, Mon Mothma, Bail Organa and Farr's assistant Lolo are having a private party to celebrate, though Farr is a mood-killer as he laments his season 1 mistake of almost allying with the Separatists. They are interrupted by Senator Betony, an old kaminoan who is predictably angry at them for opposing what most likely represent a significant influx of cash in her planet's economy. Apparently the kaminoan bargained for having their own representative to the Senate as part of their payment for the Clone Army. Makes sense. Farr sees her out as she's being pretty rude, even calling them Separatist conspirators. And then he keels over and die. They have a pseudo-funeral as they send his body to Rodia, there are cameos by various political characters, including Satine, so this is shortly after last episode. Lolo apparently takes over Farr's duty (I'm guessing this is akin to the US presidential system where there's a designated successor who finishes the term of their predecessor rather than having another election like we do), Padmé tries to reassure her about her abilities to carry on but they are summoned to Palpatine's office.

Turns out that Farr was poisoned and the man in charge of the investigation is... uh... an obnoxious parody of somebody I'm not familiar with whose design clashes severely with everybody else and speech pattern are hardly bearable. Lieutenant Divo is persuaded Farr had some dark secret that came back to haunt him while Padmé thinks this has to do with the bill. Divo tells her to keep to the senating and he'll keep to the investigating thank you very much. (Is there an English equivalent to the idiom "each at his home and the pigs will be well-kept"?) Padmé & Co decide to push for the bill's vote to be delayed until the investigation is resolved (makes sense), however Amidala doesn't trust Divo's abilities to solve the case (I'm guessing because of Satine's experience last time) and she resolves to investigate herself, begrudgingly accepting Organa tags along to protect her. Does Bail have any martial background? I always pegged him as the strong-willed but non-actiony type. Padmé immediately confronts senator badguy von McEvilface from earlier as well as Botany in his office that was apparently conceived by Sauron's own interior designer. Of course they both deny having anything to do with Farr's death but the Dracula wannabe freely admits he had Farr followed and that he has had a secret meeting at the docks the day before his death.

Padmé and Organa head there and Bail tries to convince her to leave this to the professionals (bit late, no?) she refuses and they are attacked by a hooded attacker. Everybody miss their shot and the assailant escapes. Divo shows up and berate Padmé for disregarding his direct instruction. He says she's alerted the killer to the investigation and this makes her think that this may have been Villain de Cruella's intention by telling her that. She barges into his office and find his dead body there, a dagger protruding from his chest. She says to Divo that the only person who knew about their conversation was Betony and a quick investigation reveals she isn't in her apartments. Divo has Padmé's entire crew sequestered for their safety until she's found. This doesn't take long as Lolo comes in yelling that Betony tried to kill her (very subtle here). The kaminoan is also here and vehemently denies having killed anybody: Farr was beneath her concern and the proto-imperial guy her ally? However Divo reveals that the poison that killed Farr was a kaminon special tailored to only affect rodians and places her under arrest. However Padmé realizes that this means Lolo should have died too (she's a rodian as well) unless she knew not to drink... Lolo takes her hostage and starts ranting that Farr brought war to Rodia (factually correct) and was allowed to get away scoff-free for that (also factually correct). She had met with him to try to convince him to resign (why have that discussion in the docks? They were friendly-seeming co-workers) and she killed the other guy because he knew about the meeting (seems a bit disproportionate, what was he even going to do with that knowledge?). Palpatine seems to finds this all very amusing. Divo has police droids grab Lolo in the back and Padmé disarms her.

The bill to fund more troops passes and Palpatine has the Senate's security reinforced. (so, did he not reinforce it after half a dozen of outlaws managed to take the entire government hostage or was that with the increased security?)



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

This was the worst of the season so far. Not much happens and this time there aren't even any cool fights to make up for that. Divo is unbearable and I hate every second he's on screen. Also, hey Padmé, turns out the professional was right and your little investigation's only tangible result is causing a man's death. Oops! The logistics of the crime don't make much sense (why the secret meeting? Why attack Organa and Amidala? Why kill the other guy?)
It's good that they gave Farr a bit of things to do before he died and he was a presence until then but maybe he should have been more so? This would have made his death more impactful and the constant talk of his mistake wouldn't have felt so forced if spaced out on a couple episodes. Betony is the best part of this and I hope to see more of her. As much as I make fun of Senator warmonger's obvious evilness, I wish he (or a character like him) had lived, his talk of Padmé's "antipatriotism" paints him as a proto-imperial and having a recurrent character like that to oppose Amidala would be good. It'd help show the gradual erosion of the republic's democracy. Palpatine can't fill that role because of his manipulativeness so Padmé can't ever have a decisive win over him. Maybe Betony can but she seems to have profit as a motive rather than ideology.

About that clone manufacturing bill. How would that work? The current batch only grows twice as fast as regular humans so it'd be another ten years before they could join the fight. And if the kaminoan can speed the process up even more, they'd grow old just as fast. Rex is biologically sixty by the time of the OT despite only being tennish year older than Luke, so a clone grown to adulthood in, say, a year would be useless just as fast (then again they aren't built to last so maybe that's the idea? Certainly cuts down cost on veteran retirement). Also I wonder: is Jango Fett's genome copyrighted? The Empire didn't buy more clones from the kaminoans after the war but I don't know that the planet was Geonosis'd or whatever so logically they could still be making clone-soldier for forward thinking warlords and petty tyrants over the galaxy. Though they'd have to build the equipment. Wait. Do they already do that? Where did all the guns and ships and stuff in AotC come from?

Edit: Was this the first episode without a Jedi in sight? I think it was.

----------


## Keltest

The Empire discontinued the use of clones because the Emperor didnt really like the idea of Kamino being a single lynchpin he had to rely on for his soldiers. Doubly so because like most of the empire, they kind of hated him and wanted to see him fail. The clones, of course, did not really approve of that, and considered the stormtroopers to be inferior wannabees, but otherwise had little to say.

I cant remember if it was oldcanon or newcanon that had Kamino outright rebel with their own clone army from Fett's genome as the main instigator for that decision, but it really highlighted to the Emperor that the cloners werent to be relied on anymore.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 2, Episode 16: Cat and Mouse*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

And we're back on Chrystophsis, this time seeing how Anakin and Obi-wan got there. We actually got the full story of their stay there in reverse order. Impressive.
Turns out that they came to rescue Bail Organa who was there to justify Leia saying Obi-Wan served with her father during the war to lead a relief effort and got trapped on the blockaded planet. Anakin, Yularen and their forces arrived before Kenobi and his and engaged the enemy. They are getting their asses handed to them, though. The Separatist leader is a humanoid spider alien who gloats that he can "smell fear" (funny, since he's probably the only organic onboard his ship). Anakin wants to charge headfirst but Obi-Wan arrives and tells him not to: he's got a secret weapon to test. Anakin concedes and they retreat behind the local moon.

Obi-Wan shows Anakin the prototype for the latest generation of stealth ships (who's invisible to the naked eye because space is very small). He wants Skywalker to fly it since this is its first real test. Anakin assumes he's to attack the enemy in the back but Obi-Wan only wants him to fly to Bail Organa and bring him much needed supplies. "It's more important to save lives than to destroy ships" I feel like if you have to tell that to Jedi Knight, then you failed him as a teacher, personally.
Before he can leave, however, Yularen comes up to him and tell him that he identified the enemy commander: it's a certain Admiral Trench (presumed dead) who Yularen had lost to before when Trench lead a "corporate fleet" to attack Malastare and was defeated by a Jedi. (What army was Yularen in when that happened?)
Yularen is worried Trench will spot their stealth run and volunteers to come along.

The stealth ship (very nice spear-like design, by the way) flies undetected but at that same moment, Trench decides to send bombers to attack Organa to put pressure on the Republicans. There's a pretty tense scene where Anakin and crew wonder if they've been spotted, noting that if they have they need to strike first but doing so will reveal their position (and existence) if they haven't. It'd be better if we didn't already know they haven't been spotted I think. Anakin takes the risk of letting them pass and they do and bomb Organa (why haven't the Separatist forces on the ground their own aviation?). Organa calls Obi-Wan and gives him the obligatory "Help us General Kenobi, you are our only hope". Obi-Wan contacts Anakin (I love that they can talk to each other like that undetected by the huge ass fleet between them) to tell him to hurry while he will engage Trench. Anakin and Yularen think this is foolhardy and exactly what trench wants, so Anakin disobeys Obi-Wan and decide to attack Trench's flagship with his stealthship. Is Anakin ever going to be court-martialed for insubordination at any point in this show?

Anakin disables his cloaking device and shoots at Trench but the Separatist's shield absorb the torpedoes without trouble. Trench shoots back and Anakin barely re-cloaks in time. The Admiral answers with a spray of lasers on the zone the ship is. Skywalker lives up to his name and evades them all, but that tell Trench that a Jedi is piloting the stealthship. Anakin still thinks this is a victory since he's successfully distracting Trench from both the planet and the fleet. Meanwhile the Admiral broadcasts a challenge on all frequencies: he's not impressed by cloaking devices, he's already beaten that trick before so if Anakin wants to live he should leave now.

The Republicans cross-reference the records of Trench's previous battles and conclude he fights cloaked ships by using tracking torpedoes locked on their magnetic signature. Also "no ship this small has a cloaking device". Anakin tells Obi-Wan to hold his attack until he's destroyed Trench's ship then he uncloaks and shoots another set of torpedoes at him with the same result. However, this time the Separatists have the stealthship's magnetic signature and fire tracking torpedoes at it, lowering their shields to do so. Anakin has all power directed to the thrusters and charges Trench's ship with the torpedoes in tow. Trench realizes what is going on but he can't raise his shield fast enough. Uh, shoot your lasers at them? You have a bunch of those. Skywalker's ship grazes Trench's and the latter close his eyes as the torpedoes explode in his face. Obi-Wan moves to attack the Separatists in disarray while Anakin finally goes to deliver those supplies.

He tells Yularen they make a good team (why? Yularen didn't *do* anything) and Yularen calls him reckless but effective. Which fits the description Palpatine gave of him. I guess they hadn't met before?



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

This is a pretty by-the-number episode. Trench is pretty good one-off vilain, competent and not stupidly evil, though I still like the nemoidian captain from last season better. It's good to see Yularen get some backstory and interactions with Anakin but I wish he actually did anything of note besides identifying Trench. He could have been the one who realized the magnetic signature trick, for example.

----------


## KatsOfLoathing

Oh hey, first appearance of Admiral Trench. You'll be seeing him again later, often in the role of "character used when the episode needs a competent Separatist presence to be the antagonist but we don't feel like reusing Dooku or Grievous again". 

And no, I don't think a court-martial is in Anakin's future anytime soon. Didn't you know one of the powers of the Force is being immune to long-standing legal consequences?

----------


## Peelee

> Oh hey, first appearance of Admiral Trench. You'll be seeing him again later, often in the role of "character used when the episode needs a competent Separatist presence to be the antagonist but we don't feel like reusing Dooku or Grievous again".


Eh, they usually don't use Grievous when they need a competent Separatist presence.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

There's this big narrative about how restrictive and repressive the Jedi are to Anakin, when actually they are super duper nice to him about his constant disobedience, recklessness and order dodging.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Oh hey, first appearance of Admiral Trench. You'll be seeing him again later, often in the role of "character used when the episode needs a competent Separatist presence to be the antagonist but we don't feel like reusing Dooku or Grievous again". ]


Is death even real?

----------


## hamishspence

> (What army was Yularen in when that happened?)


I figured, Judicial Forces - more like "space police" than "army" in the strictest sense.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Judicial
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Judicial_Department

EDIT: Though, in Legends, he's apparently a member of the "planetary defence/security forces" for that sector, instead:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Pla...ecurity_Forces
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Kwymar_Sector_Forces

Still _basically_ space police, but local rather than galactic.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 2, Episode 17: Bounty Hunters*

Its _Seven Samurai_.

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

For reals though: the episode opens with a dedication to Akira Kurosawa, which is nice.

Ahsoka, Obi-Wan and Anakin are sent in orbit of Felucia to investigate a missing medical station. They only find a separatist satellite that launches vulture droids at them. They are shot down and crash on the planet. (I love that they put breathing masks only once they _enter_ the atmosphere.) Also, Ahsoka is getting really tired of crashing all the times. She really should wonder how come they always survive. They have weird bubble airbag-parachutes. I doubt that'd be practical in reality, but I dig it. There's an odd ten-second moment where they see a huge creature. It has no bearing on the rest of the episode. Skywalker and Kenobi argue (naturally) on which random direction to follow, but Ahsoka notices smoke from a nearby village. (Anakin takes this a proof that Obi-Wan never agrees to his ideas.)

Despite growing "the most valuable crops in the galaxy" the village looks like it was suddenly abandoned. The Jedi finally find some villagers hiding in a basement. But four bounty hunters get the drop on them (despite the one is heavy robotic armour making loud noises with every steps). Obi-Wan shows up and everybody prepare to fight until the village's mayor shows up to defuse the situation. They hired the bounty hunters (really just mercenaries when you think about it) to protect them from pirates who come to raid the crops. The mayor is hopeful the Jedi will help them driving the numbers of defenders to seven (heh). However Kenobi says the Jedi have to leave. Problem is, the only ship in the village is the mercenaries'. Ahsoka isn't pleased with Obi-Wan's attitude but he says they have a mission to fulfill and their little engagement may bring the separatists' attention to the farmers. As they are arguing though, the pirates arrive. And who would lead them but Hondo Ohnaka?

Hondo tries to bribe the hunters away but their leader refuses (and take offense at the idea that she could just be bought off). Obi-Wan offers Ohnaka twice his expected pay-off if he leaves the village alone and drops the Jedi at the nearest Republic outpost. Hey look at that, Kenobi actually coming up with good compromises. Ohnaka however refuses Republic credits because _Star Wars_' economy makes no sense (and tries to imply that is why their previous deal didn't go through instead of him being an idiot), threatens everybody and leaves.

The Jedi aren't confident in the hunters ability to defend both of the village's entry points. The lead huntress answers by saying they couldn't keep the peace. Obi-Wan says that the war isn't their fault (*coughs*Dooku*coughs*attackingGeonosis*coughs*) and that the war would have been long over if more worlds were willing to defend themselves. Wow, just wow. This inspires Anakin to train the villagers. Anakin starts training them, but even teaching them the basics takes longer than they have (of course) and the ronin-looking bounty hunter laughs at him.  One of the villager takes this as proof that this is pointless. Obi-wan is coming to Anakin's point of view and argues they need to learn to defend themselves. Kenobi argues tactics with the head huntress, he suspects her of being more interested in securing her payment than actually saving people and it annoys her. The bounty hunter in a huge armor has an accident and Ahsoka discovers that, *shocked gasp*, he's actually very small and she tells him "you don't have to look tough to be tough." *sighs*


However the bounty hunters spot a pirate scout (I feel like Ohnaka could have just come in force he was already there, why send a scout?) and the ronin-looking one (Embo) goes after him. Embo uses his metal hat as a shield and kills the pirate with his bare hands. Brutal. When the scout doesn't show, Hondo decides to attack. The farmers turn on a laser fence and use their animals as cavalry (against speeders), Ahsoka laid traps with the armoured hunter (whose armour is immediately destroyed, but he's more effective without it, anyway) and Embo uses his hat as a boomerang that comes back even after hitting things. The tide of battle turns when Ohnaka shows up in a tank and wounds Embo with an indirect hit. Kenobi orders a fall-back action. "Die, Jedi scum" yells Hondo. At least, he's done with faking friendship. The bounty huntress sniper is shot by the tank (despite it being identical to Embo's getting shot, everybody (correctly) concludes she's dead). Anakin jumps on the tank and fights Hondo who's got an electro staff just like Grievous'. The pessimist villager saves Obi-wan by killing a pirate.

Anakin throws Hondo over a cliff, he hangs for dear life (making the pirates flee). Ohnaka begs Anakin to save him, the Jedi only agrees once Hondo says he'll call the attack off. But as soon as he's up, the pirate throws Skywalker in front of the tank (piloted by his lizard-monkey). Anakin dodges a blast and lands in the village. Hondo stands grandiosely on the cliff and, looking down on his enemies, deems this effort "no longer... profitable!" and buggers off in his ship. Okay, that cracked me up. The villagers get back to work and Anakin assures the mayor his people saved itself not the Jedi or the bounty hunters (heh, debatable). The lead bounty huntress, Sugi offers a ride to the Jedi.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show


This episode felt a bit stretched, with the gratuitous "you can be tough even if you're small" moral and the drawn-out crash (what was these beasts there for?). The bounty hunters were cool, though, so I'd like to see them again.
Ohnaka isn't as endearing as the showmakers seem to think. Still he had more sense than the original bandit leader who should have cut his losses once his men started dying just like the pirates. I feel like the episode should have dedicated more times to the argument of getting involved vs non-getting involved.


Also, Obi-wan noted that the Separatists would investigate and we know of more battles on Felucia so the farmers shoudl enjoy their short-live tranquility while it lasts.  :Small Frown:

----------


## Sapphire Guard

Yep, that about covers it.

----------


## Peelee

> *Season 2, Episode 17*
> 
> Its _Seven Samurai_.


I'm not going to say whether this was the best episode review, but it was certainly my favorite episode review.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 2, Episode 18: The Zillo Beast*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Just to shake things up, the Republic is the one with a super-weapon this time: the electro-proton bomb (judging by the name, it's 2/3 of an atom bomb but actually, it's a massive EMP). They decide to test this bad boy on the battle for Malastare, which is important because of its huge fuel production which is vital for the Republic (Oh no! A _Star Wars_ production where fuel is important to the plot! Heresy!). There to observe are Anakin, Mace Windu and dug head of state Doge Urus as well as Palpatine's hologram. It's actually a pretty impressive ground battle by SW standards (if the writers had any sense of scales, it'd be a minor skirmish, but let's not focus on the negatives). For some reasons, the dug decide to use melee weapons, it goes about as well as you'd expect. The bomb itself is suitably impressive, the initial explosion blasting a few hundred droids before a blue wave of energy takes out everything electronic on the battlefield including Anakin's prosthesis (but not the dugs' electro-staves for some reason). However, in the middle of the celebration, the ground collapses, taking with it the clones' vehicles, including the drivers and pilots who are trapped inside.

The Doge agrees to a treaty to join the Republic (huh, I thought they were already a part of it, wasn't the senator from Malastare running for chancellor against Palpatine and Organa back in TPM?) but he needs approval from his people's council first. Urus hopes the bomb did not upset the planet's delicate balance (considering a war is going on, I'd say any balance is already outta whack, but heh, what do I know). A clone rescue team has gone missing so Windu  takes some men to go looking for it. He trusts Anakin to stay with Doge Urus and deal with the treaty. Mace trusting Anakin, how odd to type that. Windu finds some prehistoric-looking cave paintings and the rescue team who's still alive (mostly) and was attacked by "something". Windu has a bad feeling about this so he asks Anakin to come down. They quickly find the "something" it's AN ENORMOUS ****-YOU DRAGON who they mistook for the ground. A fight ensues. Anakin coming in with his fighter gives Mace and his men the necessary distraction to reach their transport and scram, but Anakin crashes (this, guy I swear) and he fruitlessly tries to hack the monster's ankle like he's fighting a _World of Warcraft_ boss or something but his lightsaber can't penetrate the monster's shell. He ends up clinging to R2 who uses his thrusters to fly them out of there. I really like how the ambient mist gradually clears up during the scene so the creature is only revealed bit by bit. I also really enjoy its design, it's a unique kind of really thin biped with a hunched neck and third arm growing out of its back.

The Doge identifies it as a Zillo Beast who once terrorized his ancestors but were allegedly killed off long ago. Cut to the night when the dugs are using their artillery on the beast (without much success), Windu tried to get them to stop: endangered species, it only attack when provoked and all that. The Doge, however, considers the Jedi responsible for the beast's awakening and insists they help kill it because he's worried that some kind of prophecy states a zillo will destroy their civilisation. Windu refuses to allow the killing of an innocent life-form even if that risks the treaty (it's the principle of the thing, you see), Anakin is... unconvinced. They show a recording to Palpatine and the bomb's designer. Windu thinks they can find a reserve of some kind for the beast to live out its day peacefully in the Outer Rims, but Palpatine would rather have the treaty signed. However all the lights in his head turn on when the weapon designer tell him of its unpenetrable scales (even lightsaberproof) that she hopes to duplicate for their ships. Anakin has an idea, though: if they shoot the beast with stun cannons in small gaps he noticed they might knock it out, then tell the dugs it's dead and bring its "corpse" wherever they want. They agree.

The Jedi join the dugs, but the doge says their help won't be necessary, they found out how their ancestors killed the others way back when and are going to do the same: use the fuel lines to flood the beast with the fuel, it is poison to it. Honestly I doubt anybody would want to down a cup of spaceship fuel, but whatevs. Windu (correctly) guess that this will just drive the zillo out of the hole. Mace threatens the doge to have him stop but he calls his bluff. Not that it matters since the beast immediately climbs out and start rampaging. Anakin's plan ends up working but the zillo takes very long to fall asleep and manages to destroy several clone tanks and dug buildings. The dugs join the Republic and the beast is taken away. Not to the Outer rim, though, Palpatine wants it in a lab for further studies. On Coruscant. Yeah, no way this will backfire at all. I seriously hope Sidious has an angle of some kind here because, ye gods, is it a stupid idea to bring an animal that big and powerful on a planet that densely populated.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Not much happened in this episode but it is very nice to look at. The beast, the battle in the mist, the fuel/poison being poured and the final battle are spectacular. Doge Urus is a solid antagonsit, you can easily see why he's doing what he does. It's kinda weird that they give him some stereotypically "villainous" emotes, though. Also it's nice to see Anakin being less concerned about the Jedi Code than a fellow Jedi but it is odd to see him get along with Windu.

----------


## Keltest

Windu is actually a lot like Anakin, except with the wisdom of age and experience helping him.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Windu is actually a lot like Anakin, except with the wisdom of age and experience helping him.


I dunno, my only experience of Windu is the movies where is personality consists solely of disaproving Anakin and unusually stiff acting on Jackson's part. Oh and a purple lightsaber.

----------


## Peelee

> I dunno, my only experience of Windu is the movies where is personality consists solely of disaproving Anakin and unusually stiff acting on Jackson's part. Oh and a purple lightsaber.


It's really fun to watch the prequels, look at all the acting, and think, "_that_ was 'faster and more intense'?!"

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 2, Episode 19: The Zillo Beast Strikes Back*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The Zillo Beast arrives on Coruscant where it's greeted by tanks and clone troopers who adorably point their rifles at the thing as if they could even tickle it. As it is being driven into a cage-hangar-thingie, Mace and Anakin meet with Palpatine (who can barely hide his Sith-boner for the beast's destructive potential) and Amedda. Windu points out that this is all a terrible idea and leaves after the weapon expert from last time assures him it'll be well treated. She seems to be more of a general I-have-twenty-two-degrees kind of scientist, since she starts conducting experiments on the zillo. Some prodding from Palpatine gets her to agree that the study would go faster if the beast were dead and he orders her to find a way to kill it, taking inspiration from the dugs' fuel. She thinks the beast might be intelligent but acquiesces nonetheless.

Obi-Wan heard the story from Windu and he gets Padmé and Anakin to petition the Chancellor about it. Anakin is reluctant because of the danger the zillo represents but agrees once he sees how strongly Padmé feels about it (rather than admit to her points about the morality of the situation). Palpatine deplores the ease with which secrets are found out on Coruscant. Padmé counters that transparency is kind of the point of democracy and Anakin shows his authoritarian side again saying that in war secrets have to be kept. Palpatine makes a for-the-greater-good-the-war-is-killing-millions argument. Anakin refuses to take a side which pleases Palpatine greatly (insert "the only thing necessary for evil the dark side to triumph..." here) and he leaves. Padmé is pissed at Skywalker.

The doctor attempts to poison the beast but only manages to make it furious enough to break out of bondage. What a surprise. I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you. It kills some clones just after they've had enough time to reflect on the pointlessness of their rifles. The beast carves a path of destruction towards the Senate.  The senate is being evacuated. The beast attacks another of Palpatine's huge talking screens (still saying undecipherable stuff about the war and the Jedi) and generally spreads death and mayhem all around. It reaches Palpatine's office before Amidala, Palpatine, R2, 3P0 and Skywalker leave through the Chancellor's emergency shuttle. Windu and Kenobi arrive with a little army while the doctor informs the Chancellor they've produced another dose of poison.

The zillo catches the shuttle in the air and tries to crack it open. The Jedi (now joined by Yoda and Ayla Secura) hold their fire for fear of killing Palpatine and the others. Anakin starts cutting the shuttle open. Mandatory bad felling about this and "this is where the fun begins". Kenobi calls it one of his "improvised plans". Windu is confused about how a plan could be improvised "Just catch them when they fall. A lot of the general's plans involve falling" answer Obi-wan and Rex. Sounds about right. Yoda and Ayla get on the beast, _Shadow of the Colossus_ style to distract it.  The shuttle breaks and the Jedi manages to catch everyone (Ani gets to save his wife). The clones uselessly fire on the beast who's still fixated on Palpatine. R2 carries him to safety on his magic thrusters while the shuttle pilot is killed. The clones fire the poison gas at the zillo, and you know it's dying because the music turns to all violins. Cut to the next morning where Palps makes a show of being sad and orders the beast cloned as soon as the Jedi aren't looking. Obvious sequel hook is obvious.



*Spoiler: my thoughts*
Show

Okay, what was Palpatine's angle in this? I don't see how widespread destruction on Coruscant would help him. Does he plan to blame the Jedi? How? Or did he really think it wouldn't escape? The zillo seemed to always know where Palpatine was (except for the big honking screen moment) coupled with the pondering on its intelligence I thought they were going to reveal it was force-sensitive but I guess not. I like the way the zillo fight, lots of spins to attack with its tail and dorsal arm.
Not much else to say, this episode felt a bit crowded maybe?

----------


## Peelee

> Okay, what was Palpatine's angle in this? I don't see how widespread destruction on Coruscant would help him.


Well, here's the thing: Palpatine's eeeevil, and the monster is destructive.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Well, here's the thing: Palpatine's eeeevil, and the monster is destructive.


That's kind of out-of-character isn't it? Sidious is supposed to be a schemer who plays the long game and has managed to stay hidden in plain sight for decades.

----------


## Keltest

> That's kind of out-of-character isn't it? Sidious is supposed to be a schemer who plays the long game and has managed to stay hidden in plain sight for decades.


Well, the Zillo Beast has an alibi now, doesnt it? If it got sent off to some nature preserve, the Jedi would be sticking their noses in on it occasionally. With it dead, they wont do that, and they certainly werent going to just let him kill it.

----------


## Peelee

> That's kind of out-of-character isn't it? Sidious is supposed to be a schemer who plays the long game and has managed to stay hidden in plain sight for decades.


There is a reason that while I like TCW I don't see it as this amazing work that most fans do and frequently point out how childish and over-simplified a lot of the plots and tactics are.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Well, the Zillo Beast has an alibi now, doesnt it? If it got sent off to some nature preserve, the Jedi would be sticking their noses in on it occasionally. With it dead, they wont do that, and they certainly werent going to just let him kill it.


Yeah but couldn't he have had it sent to a research center _not_ on Coruscant.



> There is a reason that while I like TCW I don't see it as this amazing work that most fans do and frequently point out how childish and over-simplified a lot of the plots and tactics are.


Fair.

----------


## dancrilis

> That's kind of out-of-character isn't it? Sidious is supposed to be a schemer who plays the long game and has managed to stay hidden in plain sight for decades.


Sidious is pretending to be a politician - if he didn't have at least the occasional bad political decision it wouldn't be a convincing disguise.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

He just thought unleashing a monster on Coruscant would be funny? The writers wanted to make a King Kong reference?

----------


## hamishspence

> The writers wanted to make a King Kong reference?


More likely a Godzilla reference. It is the _Zill_o Beast, after all.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

Touche. I thought of that, but having never seen it, didn't feel qualified to make the connection.

----------


## Kornaki

I just wanted to say I'm on season 4, and mostly want to keep watching so I know what you're talking about in your recaps when you get there.

I agree the show is kind of dumb in a lot of its stories.  It has the upside of being short, which means I can squeeze in episodes much more easily than the 100.

----------


## russdm

> (I just finished all 8 seasons of M*A*S*H, for example, sans the finale).


Can this be explained? I know that there are 11 seasons of M*A*S*H. Did you not count the first 3 seasons as being part of it?

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 2, Episode 20: Death Trap*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Anakin and Mace are aboard the cruiser _Endurance_ and about to welcome a Clone Youth Brigade, a group of of clone cadets who are biologically tennish-year old. Their instructor tells the kids that they have the best training in the galaxy [insert distant Mandalorian laughter here] but every soldier will eventually face a crucial moment that no training can prepare for and what they will do then is the core of the soldier they will become. Two of the cadets (Hotshot and Whiplash) start picking on another one who's new to the group (he says he couldn't attend his own unit meeting with JEeis because of a broken arm) named Lucky. A fourth one (Jax) intervenes and tries to make friend with Lucky.

They are greeted by Windu and Skywalker, the latter of which acts like an enthusiastic museum tour guide. It's rare to see Ani this nice and relaxed. The Jedi are quickly interrupted by a call from Obi-Wan while Lucky scowls like there's no tomorrow. Anakin and Windu banter for a bit (still not used to them being friendly with one another) Windu calls Anakin a show-off, which is deserved. The cadets are being shown the ship's guns by a non-clone admiral who has them do some target practice and seems very eager to have them fail (dude, they're just children, calm down). Jax and Hotshot both misses their targets but Lucky shoots his down with a shot each despite the admiral and the gunner making it as unfair as possible. The group leaves and Lucky slips away from them. He calls somebody and DUN! DUN! DUN! turns out he's actually Boba Fett. He then claims to some clones he has a communiqué to deliver to Mace Windu which works despite a fake-out. They call him "Shiny" in a nice bit of continuity. Bobba then plants a bomb inside Windu's quarters and rejoins the Youth Brigade.

Just as Windu is about to enter his quarters a clone tells him Anakin wants to see him ASAP. He gives the clone something he was about to put inside his room and leaves. The clone triggers the bomb. As the alarms start ringing, the instructor organizes the youth brigade and takes them to the nearest safe room. A clone passing by tells them what happened and Boba learns Windu survived. Boba slips away again and no-one notices despite the instructor ordering them to walk in pairs (honestly with Boba infiltrating a unit wouldn't it have made more sense if they were seven or nine rather than eight?). Boba calls his ally again who tells him to blow the ship's reactors. He is hesitant to risk the crew's life but is shouted down. Anakin and Mace learn that the explosion took out the navigation system but barely and it is reparable so while they are stuck in one place form the time being, Windu was certainly the target. They organize a search of the ship for the mysterious assasin.

Boba gets to the reactor room but is spotted by a clone who calls for a trooper to bring him back to "his" brigade. Boba tricks him into giving him his gun and attacks him. The clone begs his brother not to kill him but Boba denies their brotherhood and stuns him. He then shoots the control panels and the reactor and leaves as the room explodes. Well not much of a point in just stunning that clone, then? The explosion creates a breach that ejects two clones but the Jedi manage to save themselves and the admiral. The admiral puts up a face of controlling the situation but tells the instructor to takes the cadets to the escape pods, you know, as a drill. Everyone starts to evacuate as the reactors are beyond repairs. Boba is caught up by the Youth Brigade (the instructor chides him for not staying with the group) the brigade gets into pods (Boba is with Jax, Hotshot and Whiplash) that are set to a rendez-vous point.

The admiral (and one officer clone) refuse to abandon ship for reasons beyond my ken even as the Jedi press him to. Boba sabotages the escape pod so that it'll miss the rendez-vous. As everyone gets to the rendez-vous (except the admiral who's trying a crash-landing) Anakin is informed of the missing pod. The Jedi conclude the assassin is using it to escape. The three cadets have no idea what is going on (besides being stranded in space) and their confusion only grows when the _Slave One_ boards them. Aboard is Aurra Sing and a trandoshan I assume is Bossk (he has the looks down, anyway). She sarcastically congratulates Boba on a job well done and asks who the cadets are. He says he couldn't help but bring them along and asks what they're gonna do to them. She says they have to kill them as they're now witnesses. He doesn't want to but gives up when she threatens to jettison him with them. He apologizes to the cadets, Jax calls him a traitor and he leaves and disconnects the ships. (Obligatory "DEW IT!") Aurra's plan to eliminate the witnesses is apparently to leave them unharmed right where people are going to look for them? Allright. The Jedi finds the cadets and radio their instructor to pick them up. They also say they've lost the admiral's signal. The cadets discuss Boba and say that if he is like them, he'll realize he's wrong.


*Spoiler: my thoughts*
Show

That was a good episode. It's interesting to see a young Boba try to avenge himself  on Windu one-sided as that fight is (not to mention we know neither of them is going to die). I do wonder what the other two bounty hunters are getting out of it, though? Boba's relationship with the clones probably deserves some more episodes so I hope we get to see some more of him.

Why was Anakin here? Not to mention R2?

----------


## Trafalgar

Clone Wars has always been one of my guilty pleasures. I like that they let Filoni do whatever he wanted to. I can't imagine Disney - Star Wars approving any of the following ideas:

-Let's base a couple of episodes on "Godzilla"!
-Let's base an episode on "The Seven Samurai"!
-Let' s have an episode based on "Gulliver's Travels"!
-Let's have an episode with a character based on George Lucas!

----------


## Peelee

> Clone Wars has always been one of my guilty pleasures. I like that they let Filoni do whatever he wanted to.


They did not, and even directly told him what to do on occasion. Eg: Truman Capote the Hutt.

ETA: Also, Disney explicitly OK'd The Seven Samurai in The Mandalorian, and I doubt theyd have any issue with the rest of them (which weren't even that good in TCW IMO).

----------


## Sapphire Guard

It's a big production. Hard to pin down who was responsible for what.

----------


## Peelee

> It's a big production. Hard to pin down who was responsible for what.


True, but we can at least absolutely tell that Disney did not shoot down a Seven Samurai episode and George Lucas was solely responsible for Ziro's voice.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I can't imagine Disney - Star Wars approving any of the following ideas:
> 
> -Let's base a couple of episodes on "Godzilla"!
> -Let's base an episode on "The Seven Samurai"!
> -Let' s have an episode based on "Gulliver's Travels"!
> -Let's have an episode with a character based on George Lucas!


Why not? The Walt Disney Corporation has bankrolled a lot of things in its existence I don't see why they would have an issue with either of these.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

> True, but we can at least absolutely tell that Disney did not shoot down a Seven Samurai episode and George Lucas was solely responsible for Ziro's voice.


*Spoiler: TCW*
Show



I dunno. George wanted Ahsoka to die, but Dave won him over. We don't know if Ziro's voice was a mandate or a suggestion they could not do if they liked.

George could be sitting on Dave's shoulder mandating what he does, or off in his office running his company wandering down to set occasionally with suggestions or vetoes. It's hard to tell.

----------


## Peelee

> *Spoiler: TCW*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno. George wanted Ahsoka to die, but Dave won him over. We don't know if Ziro's voice was a mandate or a suggestion they could not do if they liked.
> 
> George could be sitting on Dave's shoulder mandating what he does, or off in his office running his company wandering down to set occasionally with suggestions or vetoes. It's hard to tell.


*Spoiler: Ziro*
Show

Regardless of whether it was a mandate or a suggestion, Ziro sounded like a bog-standard Hutt until Lucas said "Make him sound like Truman Capote". So even if Filoni could have opted against, it was still Lucas being responsible; it was not the case, he said to make it the case, it was the case.

Maybe Filoni knew he had to pick his battles?

----------


## Sapphire Guard

Or maybe he genuinely thought it was a good idea? Who knows? Not us.

----------


## Peelee

> Or maybe he genuinely thought it was a good idea? Who knows? Not us.


Doesn't matter. Wouldn't have happened if Lucas hadn't said "hey do this."

----------


## Sapphire Guard

It matters, because fandom loves looking at Star Wars and going

 ideas they don't like= George's fault (with no one else involved somehow)

ideas they like=  thank god other person saved this from George.

It's the same as what we were saying about KK in the other thread.

----------


## Peelee

> It matters, because fandom loves looking at Star Wars and going
> 
>  ideas they don't like= George's fault (with no one else involved somehow)
> 
> ideas they like=  thank god other person saved this from George.
> 
> It's the same as what we were saying about KK in the other thread.


Except in this case we literally have the show creator explicitly saying "hey it was done this way and then George Lucas said 'hey do it in this different and incredibly specific way' and it is now done in that different and incredibly specific way".

Yes, normally I would agree with you, but this instance is very specifically exactly what it says on the tin.

----------


## Fyraltari

So basically "sometimes it actually is George's fault"?

----------


## Sapphire Guard

A bit more complicated than that. Per the Wookieepedia page




> Though so far the only Hutt who speaks Galactic Basic onscreen, this was not originally intended. Ziro was meant to speak Huttese into a microphone which would translate his speech into English, but this idea was dropped when the producers felt that younger audiences wouldn't understand what the translator was. Later, George Lucas stepped in and specifically asked for Ziro to sound like Truman Capote. The character was a favorite of the production team, and they planned to have him return in the subsequent The Clone Wars series.[13]


The producers (not Lucas, presumably, as he's mentioned independently later) didn't think young kids would understand if he was translated, so he needed a voice. Sounds like there was some kind of dispute he had to settle.

Also 'the character was a favourite of the production team' so it's not like they were forced into it kicking and screaming.

Does this matter? Not much, but it's more complicated than George just deciding this and forcing it on everyone else, or that he was solely responsible.

----------


## Peelee

> A bit more complicated than that. Per the Wookieepedia page
> 
> 
> 
> The producers (not Lucas, presumably, as he's mentioned independently later) didn't think young kids would understand if he was translated, so he needed a voice. Sounds like there was some kind of dispute he had to settle.
> 
> Also 'the character was a favourite of the production team' so it's not like they were forced into it kicking and screaming.
> 
> Does this matter? Not much, but it's more complicated than George just deciding this and forcing it on everyone else, or that he was solely responsible.


I never claimed they were forced into it kicking and screaming. I never claimed that Ziro wouldn't have ever spoken Basic in any way. My one and only claim was that Lucas was directly and solely responsible for Ziro sounding like Truman Capote. Everything you put forth supports that. Nothing you put forth complicates that. I really do not understand the pushback on this.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

It's not super important or anything, but the conversation was about 'Dave being allowed to do whatever he wanted', and Ziro was brought up as a counter example. We don't know if that was an example of 'Dave having to pick his battles' (implication: he disapproved, but had to go along with it) or not.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 2, Episode 21: R2 Come Home*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

We're following directly from last time with Anakin and windu looking for Admiral Kilian in the wreckage of the destroyer. They're also hoping to find the command crew, even though last episode implied only one clone stayed with Kilian. Windu and Anakin have a little argument over R2, with Windu stating that Anakin is allowing him too much personality. They soon discover dead clones. Who were shot. Windu quickly works out that their mysterious assassin must have come back to confirm his death. R2 and R8 (Mace's droid) are sent away to look for survivors. The Jedi make it to the bridge but the commanding officers aren't there. They conclude they must have been sucked into space and prepare to leave. Meanwhile R2 and R8 are attacked by gundarks (weren't those supposed to only be found on that planet where Hondo captured Dooku?) and R8 is destroyed.

Anakin and Mace discover Jango's helmet in the wreckage and Mace, in what's probaly the cleverest anyone's ever been in the show figures out what Boba's up to, too late to stop Anakin from picking the helmet up triggering an explosive. So, I'm guessing Boba will make a copy of that helmet complete with the exact same impact, huh? The explosion destabilizes the wreckage, saving R2. Boba and his posse (Aurra Sing, Bossk and another trandoshan called Castass) observe from afar. Sing is confident Windu's dead but Boba wants to check. Castass wants to leave with their hostages (Kilian and two clones) they can sell to the Separatists. A fight nearly breaks out and Aurra protects Boba. Interesting. Boba argues that evidence of Windu's death will net them a lot of money from Dooku which convinces the others. So they leave Bossk with the ship and prisoners and head for the wreckage.

Meanwhile R2 makes his way to the bridge and finds Windu and Skywalker buried under debris. Anakin instructs him to call for help with the fighters. However the droid spots the approaching hunters. R2 starts manufacturing accidents to try and stall/kill them. Mace and Anakin realize that trying to free themselves might collapse the ruin so they all they can do is wait for R2 to bring back help. Windu does _not_ trust the astromech with that. The hunters keep bickering for a while until R2 straight up drops a grenade on them. At this point Aurra agrees with Castass that they need a better plan: she uses the antenna poking out of her head to call Bossk and tell him to ready their ship, they're going to blow the wreckage to smithereens. Not sure how'd that help, personally.

R2 resumes his mission but as he approaches the Jedi's fighters he is attacked by  a gundark again. You'd think the beast would have figured out he's not food already. R2 manages to bind the gundark to Anakin's fighter and send it flying straight into debris. Hey, look! Somebody else than Skywalker crashed his ship this time! Intentionally even. This tips the hunters off that "Windu" survived and they start jamming communication. R2 decides to take Windu's fighter and get out of range of their signal. The hunters (now back in their own ship) recognize the fighter as Windu's and start blasting. The Jedi witness the aerial battle and Windu assumes R2 is abandoning them. Oh come on, do you not see he's being fired at? R2 makes it to space but his signal is still jammed (makes sense the hunters aren't far behind) and Boba manages to shoot his antenna off for good measure. R2 switches the hyperspace rings on. Both of them. The hunters have a problem, once the rings are in range, they'll only have time to shoot one of them so they must make sure it's Windu's. R2 baits them by feigning going to Anakin's ring (which gets destroyed) and then takes off with the correct one. Castass is despondent: they've just lost a lot of potential money. But Aurra says they can get Windu to come to them thanks to their hostages. Once they've had time to prepare. So they leave.

R2 makes it to the Jedi Temple and rushes in, shoving off two other astromechs in a corridor wide enough for six. Prick. Ahsoka and Plo Koon are video-conferencing with colleagues. Once she identifies him as Skywalker's droid and since he is obviously agitated, Plo Koon asks him to deliver whatever message he has. He shows them a recording of Anakin asking for help. Ahsoka and Plo Koon leave at once. Meanwhile Windu Force pulls the helmet's remain to him and refreshes Skywalker's memory about the whole Fett business. He somberly reflects that Boba saw him kill his father.
Koon, Ahsoka and some clones arrive jsut in time to save them from the ship's collapse. The Jedi will be fine after a night in a bacta tank. Windu says he sees why Skywalker trusts R2 and that he's done a good job. Anakin whines about how _he_ never gets any praise.




*Spoiler: my thoughts*
Show

This was a solid episode, nothing groundbreaking but nothing bad. It was nice to see R2 play hero and rely on his brain against far deadlier opponents rather than pull out gadgets and tricks from his ass. Windu and Anakin still seem a bit too close in my opinion but they don't get along as well as in previous episodes.
This episode is really about the hunters, though: Castass is the simplest one, he's just interested in the money. Boba wants revenge and Aurra seems to be a bit of both. While there's definitely a profit motive she seems to genuinely care about Boba and want to make him happy. I wonder why. Was she just interested in the money initially and then he grew on her or did she have some prior relationship with the Fetts and sort of adopted him? Bossk is the big question mark here. What's he getting out of this? I don't know much about him, so maybe he was already established as a friend of Boba's but all I can remember is that they were both in ESB and didn't work together in that one.
The gundarks felt a bit redundant though, the destroyer was already environmental danger enough, I think.


Next episode is the season finale. The previous one was compeltely disconnected with the rest of the season, I'm hoping they don't repeat that mistake. Either make something with the Separatists (though that'd lack build-up so it'd have to be big) or part 3 of this.

Edit: Also this is probably one of the most blatant examples of hyperspace working at the speed of plot I've seen in a while.

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## Tarmor

Boba and Aurra Sing do have history that pre-dates the Clone Wars series. About 2003 there's a Young Reader set of books about Boba that follow on from the 'Attack of the Clones'. A summary of the first few books is:

After Geonosis: Boba meets Aurra Sing, who takes him to Darth Tyranus at Raxus Prime. Aurra gets Slave I as payment. A Republic attack has Boba taken by clone troopers to an orphanage. He escapes with Sing, who had come searching for the boy, in order to gain access to Jango Fett's bank account on Aargau. On Aargau, Fett lost much of his father's money. Boba managed to elude Aurra Sing after she failed to steal Jango's credits, stealing back Slave I in the process.

They don't part as happy friends. Unless the clone wars episode is meant to fit in to the start of the 'Aurra takes Boba to Tyranus' or "on the way to the bank" bit, the episodes don't mesh with the books.

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## Peelee

> the episodes don't mesh with the books.


George Lucas creating plotlines in movies/shows that are at odds with the books (specifically concerning Boba Fett)? Say it ain't so! :Small Wink:

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## Fyraltari

*Season 2, Episode 22: Lethal Trackdown*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

We start right where we left last time. Boba has mixed feelings about the whole "using prisoners as bait" business and says so to admiral Kilian as he brings him water. Kilian tries to convince him that he doesn't have to do any of this and that he's not like the other bounty hunters, he's a good soldier. This upsets Boba who denies being anything like the rest of his clone. Aurra then comes in and starts beating Kilian to a pulp. Meanwhile Anakin and Mace are resting in the Temple's sick bay. Skywalker is rather upset by Windu's nonchalant approach to the whole Fett situation, since the Jedi Master has no intention of tracking Boba down as A) he doesn't see revenge as a cause worth pursuing and B) they've got a war to wage. They are interrupted by Plo Koon and Ahsoka who show them a message from the hunters. Sing threatens to kill their hostages one by one until Windu shows up. To prove she's not bluffing, she orders Boba to shoot one of the clones, CT-411 (Anakin calls him "Pawns"), Fett hesitates but can't bring himself to do it, so Sing does it herself. Off-camera she yells at him for that. Now that lives are at stake, Windu wants to go but Koon overrules him. He's too injured and Boba would be angrier at him, Plo Koon and Ahsoka will go instead. On the hunters' side, Castass has had enough and calls it quit. Sing decides to drop him off on the planet Florum where she's planning to meet a friend of hers. Bossk's still in, he needs money.

Tano and Plo are still on Corsucant instead of going to where the transmission was sent from since that's the one place they know Boba is not. Plo recognized Aura Sing as one of Jango's old acquaintances and so he decided to head to Coruscant's rather literal underworld to investigate. He leaves his speeder on a platform half above a pitfall which bothers me way more than it should. The hunters meet with Aurra's old pal: Hondo Ohnaka. Turns out they used to date and she snogs him. Which goes to prove that being a professional killer doesn't mean you have taste. Ohnaka spots Boba and inquires if he's his. I hope this is a joke because if it isn't then Hondo is even more stupid than I thought. Upon learning his identity, he offers his condolences for Boba's loss and calls Jango a friend of his (what did he randomly try to ransom him too?) and an honorable man. He invites Sing, Boba and Castass for a drink in his base's cantina. Aurra stops Boba from drinking alcohol and pretends to chit-chat while listening to Castass who's calling a friend of his (of the same species as Kit Fisto), when Castass starts talking about selling information, Aurra shoots him dead which saddens Boba.

Plo Koon and Ahsoka Tano have gone through a few drinking holes without any results. Plo chides Tano on her lack of subtlety which he blames on Skywalker's influence. They enter another bar and Koon goes straight to the barman, puts his lightsaber on the counter and asks for information (That's subtle!? How direct has Ahsoka been?) the bartender says that the Jedi are usually to busy with the war to deal with the likes of them anymore and Plo says they always make time for the citizenry of the Republic. Ahsoka start listening in of the conversations, one guy complains that the war killed his business, one patron is talking about a... movie they saw, a quarren and a rodian are fighting over who gets to ask a twi'lek dancer out... and Castass's friend is talking about his death to a weeqay. The weeqay works for Ohnaka, by the way. Are all weeqays working for him on this show? The pair spots the padawan and attack with the bar's entire population siding with them. As the people are wondering if the lot of them can take on two Jedi, Ahsoka throws money on the ground and the Jedi use that distraction to escape. Plo starts chiding Ahsoka again but she reveals that she followed his advice and learned that Sing is on Florum. He congratulates her and callls her "little 'Soka" which I find cute.

On Florum, Ohnaka refuses to get involved because dealing with Jedi is a bad idea (third time's the charm, it seems). Bossk spots the incoming Jedi ship so Aurra has him move away from the pirate base (with the hostages) while she and Boba gets ready to welcome Windu. Hondo greets the Jedi and directs them to the cantina where "they" are waiting for them. He wholeheartedly agrees that it's most likely a trap but denies any knowledge of their plan. He's volunteering all he knows so that Plo knows he's not party to this. Plo walks in and sits across Sing. Boba springs from the shadow and points a gun at his head. They're not happy that Windu stood them up and Sing radios Bossk to be ready to kill the hostages on her say-so. Plo is undisturbed and tells them they can do this the "easy way or the difficult way". Nice variation. Sings says she's prepared to kill anybody necessary to get what Boba wants. Plo thinks this is rather what Sing wants. Ahsoka comes in, cuts Aurra's antenna implant and puts her lightsaber to her throat. Bossk decides that if he doesn't hear from Aurra soon, he's going to kill the hostages (why?) and bolt.

Aurra tells Boba to shoot, as Ahsoka won't have the guts to kill her. He disobeys her again as he doesn't want to risk her life. Ahsoka call shim a murderer, he says he only wants justice, Plo says the Jedi *are* justice (gonna need to work on you humility, master Jedi) and that no-one will be hurt if they just come quietly. Aurra arms some darts in her shoe and winks at Boba. Boab shoots Ahsoka who parries. Plo Koon flips the table which intercepts the darts (aimed at him) and Force pushes Boba to the ground. Sing shoots at Tano but Plo cuts her blasters in half. Boba throws a bomb on the floor. Aurra escapes but leaves Boba behinds even as he cries for her help. Ahsoka runs after her while Plo Koon tries to get Boba to tell him where the hostages are, pointing out that their life depends on him but he's too distraught to care. Aurra and Ahsoka each steal a speeder from the pirates and leave. Plo brings Boba to Ohnaka and asks the pirate to help talk some sense into him. Boba at first doesn't want to help anybody since "he's got no-one." Hondo says that helping the hostages is the honorable thing and what Jango would have wanted.

This does the trick and reveals to the Jedi that Sing is leading Ahsoka on a wild goose chase. Ahsoka gets to the hostages just as Bossk was about to kill them and they capture the trandosshan. Sing manages to get aboard the _Slave One_ and take off but Ahsoka damages it so much that it crashes. Cut to Corsucant where Bossk and Boba are taken to prison. Boba sees Windu and says that he knows he's done terrible things but blames the Jedi for "starting it." And he says he'll never forgive him. Windu just replies that he's going to have to.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

This episode was rather good, even Hondo manages to not make a fool of himself. I've got to wonder what Aurra's plan was exactly. Did they really think they could have taken Windu down that easily? I'm a bit put-off by that episode trying to establish Jango as an honorable man when he shot his accomplice dead in AotC rather than let her talk (possibly as part of Sidious' plan depending on how much you think this film went according to his design). It's also a bit weird that Hondo is still just chilling on Florum after what he did to Dooku. These are just nitpicks though. So, it looks like Aurra really is doing this for Boba's sake, even if her understanding of what is good for a grieving teenager differs considerably form conventional wisdom. Boba's moral dilemma is interesting but we know he'll remain a criminal so it doesn't have as much punch as it should. Also I thought Castass was a trandosshan lat episode but having had a better look at his teeth and at Bossk this time around I have no idea what species he's supposed to be.

As far as finale goes that was better than last season's (not saying much) but it still lacks something. These three episodes would be great in the middle of the season but to conclude one, it should take some grave Separatist plot with an epic battle or something.

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## Keltest

Consider that "honorable" is being used within the context of criminals and professional bounty hunters. It almost certainly meant he kept to deals and kept his work clean instead of, IE, blowing up a starship to kill one person. Cough cough.

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## Fyraltari

> Consider that "honorable" is being used within the context of criminals and professional bounty hunters. It almost certainly meant he kept to deals and kept his work clean instead of, IE, blowing up a starship to kill one person. Cough cough.


I'm pretty sure shooting your partners isn't honorable by any metric.

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## dancrilis

> I'm pretty sure shooting your partners isn't honorable by any metric.


It could be.

For example:
If the contract says 'no one gets taken alive' and everyone signs up to that agreement.
If your partner specifically requests it that you kill them rather then let them be taken captive as it is a disgrace in their culture.
They weren't your partner in the sense that you worked together longterm merely were for this one job and you had been paid to eliminate them at the end of it anyway.
etc.

Obviously subject to various honour systems that might be in place.

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## Fyraltari

Well, it took me six months to watch season 2. I'm going to need to organize my schedule better (he said in every facet of his life).

This was definitely a step above season 1 both in terms of overall and average quality. the only episode I didn't actually enjoy was the one with the investigation and even then it's barely under mediocre. I do have issues with the general structure, though. In that there doesn't seem to have any. There isn't any overarching plot to either season 1 or season 2 but at the same time the show tends to focus on a group of characters (Ahsoka, Obi-Wan and Anakin) in a specific time period (the three-year-ish length of the war) and has several multiple-episode arcs so it kind of sits awkwardly between being an anthology show and a show with an actual story. It isn't helped by the fact that we know how the war will end and that it was ultimately pointless, but still. They could have season-long plot about a specific campaign, Sith plot or political maneuver. Not as in every episode feeds in that but most episodes build towards something. Or they could have maybe some thematic links like an entire season showing the republic/Jedi getting their teeth kicked and barely hanging in there, or the growing corruption both political in the senate and spiritual/moral in the Order. As it stands episodes don't have any consequences outside of their own arcs (and these are still pretty disjointed) which means they could belong in different _Star wars_ show for all that matter. And the anachronic order doesn't help, it even messes with character development. Not to ention certain plot points seem to be just abandoned like Ventress on Kamino, Watt Tambor and Poggle being prisoners and (I am told) the order to clone the zillo. This results in my engagement being overall pretty low and I don't finish an episode eager to find out what happens in the next (which may have been obvious from how often I post a review).


As for specific characters:

Ahsoka remains the strong point of the show (what can I say, she's grown on me) as she's the only main character to not have a preordained fate, the show is free to do as it pleases with her. I hope we see more of her friendship with Barris Offee and her doubts about the Jedi Code.

Obi-Wan's relationship with Satine has potential but I'm afraid it'll end up being too much of a rehash of Anakin and Padmé's. Speaking of which, it's good that they showed a difference between Satine and Padmé. I know Mandalore is going to keep showing up due to Maul and stuff so I hope they define her character more (with regards to her pacifism mostly).

Nothing much to say on Rex and Cody, they're good.

This show could use a good Seppie villain though, Grievous just keep failing, Ventress rarely shows up, Cad Bane is just a hired gun, Sidious can't act personally, Dooku could but doesn't and the various commanders are bland. It'd have been a great opportunity to show more of the Separatist Council, how they work and what they're capable of but apparently they won't. Shame, I always wondered what the blue lady from AotC's deal was. I'd also like some clarification on what Dooku's endgoal actually was, is he genuinely trying to win the war or not?

Boba is an interesting addition to the cast but I don't see him getting involved into the war _per se_ and he can't succeed at his objective so I'm not sure how much I want to see him again (he has to escape of course, but beyond that). Maybe he could be a pawn in a Sith's scheme?

Anakin, Anakin, Anakin. Making a good Anakin was certainly the show's most considerable challenge from the onset. because Anakin as a character is weird and inconsistant. And for once, I don't think the problem started with the Prequels. In the original, Vader had limited screentime and was characterized as a powerful ruthless man who betrayed Obi-Wan and the Jedi at large for unexplained reasons but that we could guess at being joining the Empire. ESB keeps with this characterization (and reinforces his callousness by the summary executions of two underlings and forcing his fleet into an asteroid field) but then flips everything on its head with the famous twist, recasting Vader as a man looking to reunite with his son. At the same time it introduces the Emperor as a guy Vader is afraid of but also show that Vader is power hungry and wants Luke to help him take the emperor's place. Then in RotJ, to serve Vader's redemption arc he is transformed into a broken man who regrets his position but feels trapped into the Emperor's service even saving Sidious's life when Luke tried to kill him until he grows his spine back and rebels against his master. So there's already a tension there between his characterization as a power-hungry traitor and someone who didn't get there of his own complete free will. And the Prequels decided to show the backstory of the RotJ Vader rather than the ANH one. His darker traits are constantly undermined to keep him sympathetic which results in a rushed "fall" where he goes from zero to murdering children in an instant in the last act of the third movie even when he should arguably have been fallen from the end the of the second. And his fall wasn't even him giving into his darker nature but him essentially being tricked, he wasn't power-hungry, he was trying to protect his true luuuuuuuv'. If the Prequels were really interested into showing a shining knight become evil they should have shown him become more and more immoral, disregarding the lives of his soldiers if that can score him a victory, carpet bombing civilians, that kind of things.
So from there on how can TCW manage to show him slowly falling into evil? With great difficulty. So far I like what they're doing by making him more ruthless than cruel, with his willingness to torture Poggle (to protect a loved one, mind) and backstabbing the Mandalorian senator. That's a good starting point but I wonder how they'll keep going with this. Especially since he seems to get along swimmingly with the rest of the Order.

So these were my thoughts presented in a semi-coherent manner. I'll try to start reviewing season 3 in the week but I make no promises.

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## Fyraltari

*Season 3, Episode 1: Clone Cadets*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

So, remember those rookie clones from season 1 who had to defend an outpost from commando droids? Well, they're back. More precisely we're earlier chronologically, back when the five of them were a group of cadets named Domino squad.

We join them during a training exercise where they are supposed to breach a "citadel" defended by reprogrammed battle droids (including commandos, oddly enough) and wall-guns. They're doing horribly as 1 doesn't co-ordinate with anyone, 3 (Echo) can't adapt and just repeats the order they've all heard (hence the nickname), 4 and 5 (Fives) start arguing and forget about the enemy and 2 (Droidbait), the last one standing gets surrounded and surrenders. Shaak Ti is overseeing the training with the help of two hired bounty hunters* and is rather disappointed with Domino, a sentiment shared by one of the two, Bric, who considers them rejects while the other, El-Les still think they can pull through when they'll have to do this exercise for real and be integrated into the Army.

1 in particular is pissed, despite the attempts to cheer him up by a maintenance clone named 99. 99 is a clone but he is hunched back and visibly aged. I'm guessing that it's not so much a mutation issue as something having gone wrong with his incubator or whatever because else he'd probably have been aborted by Kaminoan QA. 1 is mighty pissed because he aims to join the elite corps of the ARC troopers and he argues with Echo, the two blaming each other. They are stopped by Bric who calls them a bunch of failures even worse than 99 who is a "bad batcher".

There's a short scene where Shaak Ti meets with Prime Minister Lama Su. It doesn't contribute much to this episode but Su says that ever since Jango Fett died they've been stretching his DNA pretty thin and he suggests they find another donor. He also thinks the Jedi show too much compassion when Shaak Ti is unwilling to "cast aside" Domino squad because she considers them living beings rather than objects.

Meanwhile an ARC troopers, commander Colt, comes to watch over the squads' final test and he asks for the squad with the best time, Bravo Squad, to go first. Of course, they work like a well-oiled machine and complete the course without much of a struggle, one of them using his grappling pistol to scale the "Citadel" and take the objective. Colt is impressed. Next up is Domino. "Time to watch the dominoes fall." That's mean but a good one.
They do a better job than usual, but Colt still finds them sloppy. Droidbait is shot down and 1 decides to leave him behind as he goes for the Citadel. And the exercise stops: "Broke formation, disobeyed orders, left a man behind." Verdict: automatic failure.

Bric and El-Les argue about Domino squad: the former only cares about getting paid and requested they be affected to maintenance, the latter believes they can be their finest trainees (for some reason) and has requested they get a second chance. Fives and another of Domino squad (I'm not sure which, Droidbait? 4?) ask Shaak Ti to be transferred to another squad. She refuses and tell them their squad need to solve its issues as a unit. But she's allowing them another chance. Bric summons 4 and tell him he thinks he's the reason the squad is failing. I'm not really sure what exactly he wants as he just spends the discussion antagonizing the cadet who starts snarking back. Eventually Bric punches him and calls him a cutup, Cutup decides to adopt that as his name. I guess calling him Joker which Bric also called him) would have been too on the nose.

All the clones go to bed, except 1 who decides to go AWOL (where? you live on an artificial island in the middle of an ocean, mate, what's your plan exactly?) but is stopped by 99 who says that he can't do that to his squad. 1 claims he doesn't care, that they (him included) are just failures like 99. 99 says he's never had a chance to begin with while 1 is throwing his away and that he should embrace the fact that he has a team that depends on him (and vice-versa) rather than try to carry on alone. During the conversation he repeatedly calls 1 Heavy, which the cadets first gets upset about but finally accepts when 99 says that for him the cadets aren't just numbers and always have had names.

Comes the morning and Domino Squad is a brand new squad. Heavy is optimistic and supportive, Echo doesn't reapet orders, Cutup and Fives look out for each other and Droidbait's injury doesn't hurt. They manage to impress the instructors by reaching the foot of the Citadel without issues. However Bric has stolen their ascenscion cables which prevents them from climbing the Citadel. Bric justifies himself by saying the best pass no matter what. El-Les pleads to Shaak Ti to stop the exercise as this is unfair. Shaak Ti argues that the enemy won't play fair either. I gotta say that, as much as Bric is being a jerk, Domino squad really should have checked their equipment before the test and they've already received a preferential treatment by being given a do-over for no reason, so it's not that unfair, really. Heavy has the idea to disable the wall-guns and scale them to climb, they decide to do that with Droidbait volunteering to draw the guns' fire. While he does so, the others take them out and start climbing with Echo eventually taking the objective. Bric admits to the clones' creativity while El-Les points out no other squad has been this creative.

Domino squad graduates and they are given a medal. Heavy gives his to 99 and says he's lucky to have a brother like him and he hopes to see him again soon. The brand new shinies are then sent out to fight the Separatists.



*Why bounty hunters? They usually work alone or in very small groups doesn't seem like they'd be very good at training soldiers of the *Grand* Army of the Republic.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show


So, after this one I rewatched the one from season 1: Droidbait is (presumably) killed by the commando droids, Cutup is devoured by a giant alien worm and Heavy will blow himself up to protect Kamino so I guess 99 and him won't meet up again. Fives and Echo are integrated into the 501st, I don't know if they have ARC troopers in that battalion, though. I hope this means Echo and Fives will show up again this season.

It was a very good episode, and I was glad to see Echo, Fives and Heavy again. It was a nice touch to also give some more screen time to two of the redshirts and I understand why they didn't try to give some to the other two as well, episode already crowded enough as it is. Bric was fine as antagonist even though he came across more as a bully than an instructor, however rough. The bit about Jango's DNA being stretched thin is interesting, it makes sense and is another reason why the clone troopers would be phased out in favor of the stormtroopers, also maybe a future plot points if the Kaminoans start looking for a replacement donor?

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## Dire_Flumph

> *Why bounty hunters? They usually work alone or in very small groups doesn't seem like they'd be very good at training soldiers of the *Grand* Army of the Republic.


Work for money, unlike a planetary militia commander would have combat experience but no particular loyalty to the Republic which might be important given what the true purpose of the clone army is.

But most likely it's just a holdover from Karen Traviss' Republic Commando novels where elite clone troopers were trained by Mandalorian Veterans.

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## Fyraltari

> Work for money, unlike a planetary militia commander would have combat experience but no particular loyalty to the Republic which might be important given what the true purpose of the clone army is.
> 
> But most likely it's just a holdover from Karen Traviss' Republic Commando novels where elite clone troopers were trained by Mandalorian Veterans.


I mean, there are mercenary outfits in the Galaxy Far Far away, no? Most Mandalorians aren't bounty hunters, if they were "veterans" I would assume that means they had served in an army (their clan's specifically).

Also why wouldn't a planetary military officer not be loyal to the Republic? Yulmaren certainly is and he was in an army before the GA was founded.

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## Dire_Flumph

> I mean, there are mercenary outfits in the Galaxy Far Far away, no? Most Mandalorians aren't bounty hunters, if they were "veterans" I would assume that means they had served in an army (their clan's specifically).
> 
> Also why wouldn't a planetary military officer not be loyal to the Republic? Yulmaren certainly is and he was in an army before the GA was founded.


Yes, but in Star Wars speak, "Bounty Hunter" is pretty much used for "Mercenary". 

To the 2nd point, I probably wasn't clear, I meant that the lack of Republic loyalty would be an asset, where as a planetary militia officer would likely have a nominal allegiance to the Republic (and potentially the Jedi).  Kamino wasn't a part of the Republic, and CW pretty much showed the Kaminoan leadership didn't have the Republic's best interests at heart.  Thus mercenaries, which in Star Wars pretty much means "Bounty Hunter" most of the time.

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## Sapphire Guard

Jango got some friends of his easy, well paid work?

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## Fyraltari

*Season 3, Episode 2: ARC Troppers*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Anakin and OBi-wan have intercepted a message between Grievous and Ventress plotting an assault on Kamino. What they don't know, however is that Ventress, as shown all the way back in season 1, is already on Kamino, in a calmar-like submarine and has the precise location of both of their targets: the clones' barracks and the DNA chambers. Anakin and Obi-Wan are greeted by Lama Su and Shaak Ti ("Master*s* Skywalker and Kenobi, yes that still irks me.) Since the 501st is back on Kamino, that means Echo and Fives are also back, and who should they run into but good old 99? It also means that they have to break to him the news of Heavy's death. Oh and that their home is about to be invaded.

Grievous then arrives with a massive fleet, though not as massive as the Republicans would expect to attack a world as defended as Kamino. Anakin and Yularen lead the space battle while Kenobi, Ti and Su are in the command center. Grievous's ships start taking heavy damage but it's actually part of his plan: the "debris" are picked up by Ventress and her crew and put together into more calmar subs and, of course, they are full of ground troops. That's a clever ruse, I like it. Obi-Wan however smells a rat and decide to go check on the debris. And they say Thrawn has OP deduction skills.

Obi-wan discovers Ventress' aquadroids (a cool fish-like design) at work but he's too deep underwater to radio anyone (I think that's the reason his comm aren't working?). The droids attack him and manage to force him out of his sub but he hitches a ride on the back of the local wildlife and escapes back to the city (the pressure gradient doesn't kill him because of the Force I guess). He's too late however to warn his allies before the calmsubs arrive. The Separatists, led by Grievous in person  as well as Ventress drill into the city and start pushing the troopers back.

99 is running around bringing ammo to the spread out clones. As he reaches out Echo and Fives they meet a group of cadets who were separated from their unit and supposed to go the barracks so the three grown clones elect to escort them there and abandon their post I guess. Anakin and Obi-wan both meet up in the city but Kenobi figures out that the droids aren't in sufficient numbers to take the city so he orders Skywalker to protect the DNA chambers while he goes after Grievous. Grievous and Ventress meet. The assassin toys with a helpless clone by strangling him before pulling him into her saber and kissing the corner of his mouth as he dies. Why? This seems to be the two's first meeting and both claim to be the superior fighter/Dooku pupil (really Ventress? can *you* do the Windmill? I didn't think so). The General orders her to retrieve the clone DNA and not destroy it as they could have uses for it. He suggests a droid escort for her but she refuses, caressing his mask and saying he has nothing she could want. Does this feels weirdly sexual to anyone else? Because I find it weird.

The clones are being pushed back pretty hard, and 99, Echo, Fives and the cadets, now at the barracks, are wondering what to do. They are joined by Rex and Cody (shouldn't they be elsewhere leading the troops?) who inspire them to fight: "your training is in your blood. Ad my blood is boiling for a fight!" The cadets don't have guns but 99, who really got into the speech, says he can get all the guns they need from the nearby armory. There's a scene of Shaak Ti wiping the floor with half a dozen droids who reached the command center and she notes that they are spread thin. Ventress got into the DNA chambers and steals the soda can than apparently contains all of their DNA stocks (no wonder Lama Su said they were running short!) but Anakin reaches her and they fight. Cody and Rex, with their new guns attack Grievous' groups and quickly fall back.
"All too easy, says the cyborg.
-Define "easy", General, intervenes Obi-wan.
-Kenobi!"
Did... did Grievous just slut-shame Kenobi? They fight. Grievous disarms Kenobi but wastes time gloating (as you do) and the Jedi remembers he has magic powers and pushes him away, making him run.

In the barracks, Rex, Cody, Echo and Fives are slowly letting the droid advance while shooting at them and throwing grenades provided by 99. Until Rex orders the cadets hiding in the retractable bunk beds inside the wall to spring into action and shoot the droids from behind. As they run out of 'nades, 99 decides to go get more, leaving cover to do so. Rex tries to stop him but he says he's a soldier like them and this is what he was bred for. And he's shot down. Grievous ambushes Kenobi on a bridge and does the windmill at him. Before he can kill him, though, the platform starts collapsing and Obi-wan falls into the ocean. The cyborg general decides that's that and steals a Kaminoan shuttle. Of course Obi-Wan was caught by the same flying fish thingie from earlier. It can hover apparently. Shaak Ti and her clones finish mopping up the droids and destroy the calmsubs with some rocket launchers. Anakin and Asajj's fight took them to the hangars where they both start force-pulling the DNA vial from one another until a clone catches it. Anakin refuses her suggested surrender saying he's going to let the clone shoot her but she jumps on Grievous's pod and escapes with him. This is going to be an awkward ride home.

Echo (probably though that may be Fives) hugs 99's corpse while the cadets rejoice nearby (I think one of them is missing but he may just be off-screen) and Cody and Rex recognize their fallen brother as a true soldier and one of them. A bit later, Echo and Fives are being made ARC troopers for their actions today. Besides being next to Cody and Rex and not dying what did they do that was so special? Echo is shocked and Fives is proud, both are probably thinking of Heavy too.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show


This was a good episode. I find it a bit odd that it and the one before were separated from the other third of that arc by almost two whole seasons, though. As it was mostly action-oriented I haven't that much to say. The action was rally good, both in terms of tactics (Grievous's trick and the clones' ambush) and the fact that this series give each lightsaber wielder something of a personal style: Ventress is acrobatic, Grievous makes full use of his abnormal number of limbs and fully rotative joints, Obi-Wan dodges a lot (though that may just be because he's facing Grievous) and Anakin I don't have a translation for _bourrin_ but that's what comes to my mind, pure, straightforward, brute force.

The design of the droids in this series are still very inventive and varied and I consistently dig them. The B1s are insectoid so it only makes sense for the aquadroids to look like a cross between a B2 and a manta. I hope we see them again if there's more water battles. Ventress and Grievous work surprisingly well together, I was even surprised to see him apparently come back to help her escape. He may have thought she still had the DNA/not wanted to take the blame alone, though.

I'm of two minds about 99's death. I feel like he was a bit underutilized but I'm not sure how else they could have utilized him more as he was unlikely to ever leave Kamino. His death scene was handled well enough but I wish he had died achieving something rather failing to do something that wasn't needed in the first place. Like shielding one of the cadets from an explosion or something.


Next up: *Supply lines*

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 3, Episode 3: Supply Lines*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

So, Ryloth is under a massive attack by the Separatists (I think this is before the Ryloth episodes of season 1) and the Republicans, lead by a Jedi Master Di and Cham Syndulla are getting an ass-kicking. They also seem to be protecting a group of refugees who are running out of supplies (food and medical as well as ammunition). They send an S.O.S. to the Jedi Temple through an admiral who claims that the entire Outer Rim garrison isn in danger (which seems unlikely) and is killed-off mid conversation. The Jedi contact Bail Organa who was doing a thing in the Outer Rim and explain to him their plan: the Republic has blockade runners that can pierce the Separatist blockade of Ryloth but they don't have the range to operate such distances, they want to use the planet Toydaria as a waypoint where the runners can pick up their cargo, but Toydaria isn't a republic world (so I guess this is before the very first episode of the show as well) so Organa will have to negotiate with the Toydarians for their help. On Toydaria he will meet with a first shipment brought there by a Representative from Naboo... Representative Binks. Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh boy.

Bail arrives on Toydaria and meets with Binks, Toydarian border controls tries to have them remain on their ships because the planet is "closed to off-worlders", something that is never explained, but Bail powers through, missing a golden opportunity to have Jar Jar confined to a place where he can't screw anything up. Of course, since it _is_ Jar Jar, Bail might consider screw-up inevitable and prefer to have his eye on him? In any case he gets to have Jar Jar leave the talking to him (and surprisingly, he does) and exposes the situation to the Toydarian king (leaving the exact nature of the "humanitarian crisis" vague). The king is receptive but they are interrupted by Lott Dod, senator for the Trade Federation who's here because Dooku intercepted Bail and the Jedi's conversation. Turns out Toydaria is in business with the TF so they're willing to listen to him. Organa tries to have Dod dismissed as a Separatist but the Neimodian denounces Gunray as an extremist who does not represent the Trade Federation which is neutral in the war (yeah, and I have an hyperlane to Tython to sell you). Dod reveals that the crisis on Ryloth is actually a siege and the Toydarian collectively balk at the idea of helping the Republic in a matter of war and the meeting is adjourned. Did Bail really hope to slip that by them unnoticed?

On Ryloth, the situation is becoming desperate as the Republicans are trapped in some kind of valley and Cham thinks the Republic is abandoning them. On Toydaria, the king asks Bail and Lott to argue their points: Bail simply states that they intend to bring purely humanitarian aid to the twi'leks and brings Orn Free Tah on the line, the twi'lek senator makes an impassioned speech about the vow of the "twilight people" (odd name, I thought that had retconned Ryloth into not a ring-world?). Then Lott Dod claim that the Republic will uses Toydaria to bring weapons to Ryloth, the Separatist Senate will perceive this as a breach of Toydaria's neutrality and decide to attack the planet forcing the Trade federation to stop their business there pre-emptively. The Toydarians start weighing their economy against the lives of the twi'leks and the king dismisses the senators until he's taken a decision.

On Ryloth, Master Di decides to turn their one remaining gunship into a bomb to collapse a pass leading to their position, this will force the Separatists to come from one direction alone, allowing the clones to hold for long enough for the twi'leks to evacuate with the refugees through the mountains. On Toydaria, the king decides against helping the Republic much to Dod's satisfaction. However, as they leave, the king privately meets with them and says that he will allow them to use Toydaria once, for the supplies they have already brought, on the condition that the Trade Federation can't prove a thing. To do so, Bail Organa makes an excuse to avoid attending a formal dinner (which Lott Dod loudly complains about, what diplomat) to go oversee the transfer of cargo while Jar Jar distracts the guests. The dinner is happening on a floating table that reminds me of _Quatre ?_. Jar Jar improvises a gungan traditionnal art piece by juggling plates and drinks and creating a structurally-improbable pile. What happened to his clumsiness? Dod's aid gets way into it, which I found funny.

On Ryloth, Di puts his plan into action. Even though he and the clones all die, he lives long enough to witness the blockade runners arrive and die knowing the twi'leks will survive. Yes, Di dies. Bye, Di. The twi'leks are happy to get some food and medicine but Cham still looks upset. On Toydaria, Lott Dod catches Organa and Binks just before they leave to confront them about what just happened on Ryloth. Organa says that if Lott Dod has any evidence to show the Senate, he is welcomed to do so. Dod realizes the senate takes forever to decide anything and throws a wordless fit that is so ridiculous to watch, it's a wonder it hasn't been memed to death. The toydarian king says he's reconsidering joining the republic and is willing to meet with the Jedi, leading into the first episode.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show


That episode was rather mediocre. The plot was mostly okay but not very interesting either. Di (a name rather on the nose) had a cool look but not much besides that. I do hope we get to see more of his species. Lott Dod is still a better TF vilain than Gunray, but that's a low bar. Jar Jar was tolerable which is impressive for Jar Jar but still not much.


Next up: *Sphere of Influence*

----------


## Keltest

As far as jar jar goes, they need to make him at least somewhat competent sometimes to explain why he keeps showing up. If he actually just botched everything he touched, the senate would have thrown him out.

----------


## Fyraltari

> As far as jar jar goes, they need to make him at least somewhat competent sometimes to explain why he keeps showing up. If he actually just botched everything he touched, the senate would have thrown him out.


This implies that the Republic Senate has standards which I do not believe.

----------


## Trafalgar

> As far as jar jar goes, they need to make him at least somewhat competent sometimes to explain why he keeps showing up. If he actually just botched everything he touched, the senate would have thrown him out.


If only real world legislatures could throw out their incompetent members.....

----------


## Fyraltari

So I've watched a couple episodes forward and is it me or are these episodes and the one just before really lackluster?

----------


## Peelee

> So I've watched a couple episodes forward and is it me or are these episodes and the one just before really lackluster?


It's not just you.

----------


## Jasdoif

> So I've watched a couple episodes forward and is it me or are these episodes and the one just before really lackluster?


Season three's kind of sad; it feels like only one out of every three episodes is above average.  _Some_ of those are really good, mind you....

----------


## Sapphire Guard

I can't remember what comes where, but IIRC I started skipping episodes somewhere around this point if they didn't seem important.

*Spoiler: full series*
Show



Most of the long arcs outstay their welcome or could lose an episode. I feel like they were better at concise storytelling early on, then it starts to drag a bit as the arcs get longer. My memories are dim so I could be mistaken

----------


## Fyraltari

Well, shoot.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Well, shoot.


I suppose I should elaborate, without _over_doing it on spoilers....

*Spoiler: Episode 4 (Sphere of Influence)*
Show

Admittedly, the fanboying over Baron Lucas feels a little more tolerable after seeing Star Wars run by people who actively hate it....Still, the episode would be better served if it was devoted to Ahsoka and Chuchi, if only because that would avoid relegating Ahsoka to guest star status in her own series....
*Spoiler: Episodes 5, 6 (The Middle Mandalore Arc)*
Show

Poisoning kids because it's cheap?  Seriously?  Was diluting tea with _water_ too arduous a long time ago in a galaxy far far away?  It's an uphill struggle from there, and I do mean *struggle*.  There are a few good moments...between both episodes.  "Accountability in the face of corruption" is of course a great theme, but a great theme with a lackluster implementation is still lackluster storytelling.
*Spoiler: Episode 7 (Assassin)*
Show

This one's good; it's a sane take on Force-as-mysticism, Ahsoka-centric, and contrasts Ahsoka with Attack-of-the-Clones-Anakain despite all the parallels the two understandably have.
*Spoiler: Episodes 8, 9 (The We Can't REALLY Retcon Ziro Can We Arc)*
Show

These look like filler episodes because they are.  Even killing off Ziro doesn't raise the bar above mediocre.
*Spoiler: Episode 10 (Heroes on Both Sides)*
Show

A great one; this episode really hits the point that the Separatists are people like the Republic, not just an army of droids and their commanders.  And also, that Dooku publicly supports pursuing peace while privately sabotaging it; to the same extent that Palpatine does.  (This episode also debuts new 3D models for the main cast, in case that's a deciding factor for some reason.)
*Spoiler: Episode 11 (Pursuit of Peace)*
Show

This episode is forgettable.  As in, I forgot about it until I reread a synopsis....I'm sure the episode thinks it deserves to be considered an arc along with the great episode before it.  It's wrong.  Padme's speech at the end is good, don't get me wrong; but nowhere near enough to make up for the bloat that meandered its way there.
*Spoiler: Episodes 12, 13, 14 (The Nightsisters Arc)*
Show

This is almost entirely setup for interesting stuff that won't happen until later seasons.  Whether it's worth watching on its own merits depends entirely on how much you like watching the development of minor fallout from Dooku's betrayals.
*Spoiler: Episodes 15, 16, 17 (The Mortis Arc)*
Show

This is _the_ worst arc in the *entire* series, though I understand I'm in the minority on that opinion.  (I'm not watching the recent relaunched seasons, so I guess it's possible there's worse now?)  I appreciate the whole intent of getting characters to talk about things they'd never say out loud in their usual state of mind, but that's like two scenes in the middle episode; the rest of it is overwrought over-symbolic psychedelic garbage that relies on a series of reset buttons....
*Spoiler: Episodes 18, 19, 20 (The Citadel Arc)*
Show

Back to good.  This is a fairly standard military breakout mission that's filled with enough sudden complications and turnarounds that it fills three episodes _without_ feeling like it's being padded for length.  This is what all adventure stories should aspire to be!
*Spoiler: Episodes 21, 22 (The Trandoshan Moon Arc)*
Show

While it starts kind of slow, this one is great: It's all about Ahsoka being forced to fill Anakin's shoes, and *both* of them coming to accept just how much she's learned from being his apprentice.  This is still the most insightful depiction of mentorship that I've seen.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The Mortis Arc


Oh.

I've heard about this. Ooooooooh boy.

----------


## dancrilis

> Oh.
> 
> I've heard about this. Ooooooooh boy.


Personally I don't think it is bad in terms of 'can I watch this without hating every second of it' it is more bad in terms of 'what? why? what? ... no just no - I am going to ignore this unless I want to annoy someone on the internet by using it as a reference'.

It effectively messes with things that didn't need to be messed with should be left alone.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> Oh.
> 
> I've heard about this. Ooooooooh boy.


Ah, the Mortis Arc.  Honestly, taken *completely on its own* it's not that a bad story.  As a bigger look into the "mythology" of Star Wars however, yeesh.  Hard to complain about midichlorians quite as much afterwards.

*Spoiler: I mean, I'll take "The Force is an Energy Field we access through microscopic organisms" over..*
Show

The Force is three guys on an asteroid somewhere.  And then that last old EU novel series tried to add to it by basically throwing Cthulu into the mix.


So yeah, Jasdoif, I'll back you up on your opinion.  I'll take Ziro or Padme's latest "I trusted you and you let me down" arc over this nonsense.

Hadn't thought about it in awhile, but I guess season 3 was a dip in quality.  Hang in there, season 4 was an improvement and quite possibly my favorite arc (The Krell/Umbara arc) was in there.

----------


## Peelee

> *Spoiler: I mean, I'll take "The Force is an Energy Field we access through microscopic organisms" over..*
> Show
> 
> And then that last old EU novel series tried to add to it by basically throwing Cthulu into the mix.


We don't talk about that series. 

For reals, I've never seen anyone discuss it. And after this, I'll need to add "organically" to the end of that sentence.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> We don't talk about that series.


Thanks Peelee, I'll add "Fate of the Jedi" to the list between "Ewoks" and "Holdo Maneuver"

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 3, Episode 4: Sphere of Influence*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

So, we're checking up on the Pantorans from season. They've elected a new Chairman, Baron Papanoida, since the previous one's death but they've got another problem: the Trade federation is blockading them. Since the Republic doesn't seem to be willing to take action, the people is starting to turn against it. Especially since Dooku has offered help if Pantora joins the Separatists. Senator Chichu is pleading to the Senate to intervene but Lott Dod claims this is just an internal affair, they'll leave once Pantora has paid its debts (easy when you can' trade with anyone, right?) and they're totally neutral, they just do business with the Separatists (how he keeps getting away with this crap is beyond me. The Republic doesn't recognize the CIS so if you supply them with anything you should be charged with treason). There's a short scene of Chichu assuring Padmé that the Pantorans are never going to join the CIS and then she meets Papanoida who's just arrived. He introduces her to his children, two daughters (one of whom is wearing an entire carpet on her head. A bold statement) and a son in a military uniform. While the daughters leave the baron and his son tell Chichu (who seats without offering her boss a chair. Cultural thing, I guess) that the blockade is doing more damage than predicted and they don't have much time before their people force them to join the Separatists.

Papanoida's daughters are attacked in their own apartment by a Rodian and an alien from a species I don't recognize who knock them out and kidnap them. Your security personnel needs training, Pantorans. A bit later, Anakin and Padmé are comparing this plot to TPM the Pantorans' situation to Naboo's previous one and Anakin cracks a joke that that blockus wasn't so bad since it's how they met (weren't there talks of death camps a that point?), anyways, the couple is interrupted by Ahsoka telling them of the disappearance of the baron's daughters. Anakin states that the Jedi can't get involved because this is a job for the local police (why, of course! the immediate family of the head of a Republican planet come to petition the Senate getting kidnapped, of course this is a job for the Coruscant police! Of course!) so he agrees that Ahsoka helps but only if she isn't found out, while he gets the council not to notice her absence. Padmé still can' t believe they let Anakin teach. You and I, Padmé, you and I.

Ahsoka offers her service to the Pontarians who are glad to have her. She suspects the Separatists and the son intervenes that Dooku has already offered his "help" to find the daughters. He doesn't think they've been kidnapped but are held hostage... What's the difference? Ahsoka guesses the daughters are held on the flagship of the blockade, which would be the last place to hide them, but given the Separatists' usual competency level, whatever. Papanoida sends her and Chichu to "pay them a diplomatic visit" while he and his son follow the investigation.

The rest of the episode is split between these two groups, so I'll do both sequentially. Papanoida & son are told by the detective from last time (who thankfully doesn't appear further) that the police hasn't found anything in their quarters. The baron however notices an icon in the wrong place and spots green blood under it. He correctly deduces that his daughter used it to fight off their attackers who later didn't know to put it back in its correct spot. He uses a doodad to match the blood against "known galactic criminals" and immediately gets a positive match for Greedo from ANH (Holy Police State, Batman!). Rather than inform the police, they go themselves to Tatooine since his file says that's where he's based.

They get to Jabba's palace to look for him and elect not to talk to Jabba until they know if he's involved (I guess anyone can just walk into Jabba's palace). The baron's plan is to ask around for him so that he comes to them. One of the twi'lek they ask turns out to be Greedo's girlfriend. When he hears about Pantorans looking for him he decides to kill them (weird hearing Greedo talk in Basic). Greedo and his friend attack the baron and his son. The Baron overpowers Greedo and makes noise so they have to talk to Jabba. Papanoid appeals to Jabba as a fellow father (Jabba's adorable baby is here) and asks to be allowed to take a blood sample from Greedo to prove his guilt. This terrorizes Greedo apparently who admits to have been hired by the Separatists. He also confesses that one of his daughters is in Mos Eisley.

Greedo leads them into a cantina and tells a random goon to get the prisoner. His accomplice is also there and completely fails to recognize the Papanoidas as being the same species as his prisoner even though he's suspicious of them. However when the daughter comes in and exclaims "Father!" the shooting starts. Despite being seriously outnumbered the family guns down the entire bar save for Greedo (who won't always have such luck in cantinas). The Baron noticeably can apparently dual-wield like a maniac.

Meanwhile, Chuchi and Ahsoka (pretending to be Chuchi's servant) land on the flagship of the TF's blockade. The senator pretends that the Baron is willing to join the CIS in exchange for the end of the blockade so the local TF ambassador invites them to stay the night to discuss the details. They sneak inside the ambassador's office and eavesdrop on him arguing with the ship's captain who is indignant about having a kidnapee on his ship. The two narrowly avoid getting caught (including a nice moment where Ahsoka levitates Chuchi out of sight).

They get in the detention area thanks to Ahsoka performing her first ever mind-trick, though she has to do it twice for the guard to let them *both* pass. Ahsoka explains that she can't sense where the daughters are because "It's not something I can turn on and off" (that doesn't answer the question...) but the security systems can definitely spot the trespassers. They do end up finding her through the good old technique of trying every door. The captain tries to stop them by sicking half a dozen B2s on them but.. well... Jedi. The ambassador arrives with some more guards and Chuchi threatens to disclose the Trade Fedearation's part in the kidnapping. Unless they call off the blockade.

Back on Corsucant, Dod blames everything on the captain which he claims was working for Gunray and that the TF has returned Papanoida's daughters and, in a gesture of good faith, they are dropping the blockade. So they're even milking some good PR out of that?



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

A rather run-of-the-mill episode with a  bit of action and a little of intrigue but it doesn't really stand out. It's nice to see that Greedo was always a lousy criminal. The Baron is weirdly hands-on for a head of state and a surprisingly good fighter (especially for his apparent age). Chuchi turning the situation to her advantage by blackmailing the Trade Federation was nice political-savy moment, the kind I wish Padmé had more of.


Next up: *Corruption*.

----------


## Devonix

> Thanks Peelee, I'll add "Fate of the Jedi" to the list between "Ewoks" and "Holdo Maneuver"


*Spoiler*
Show

Gonna be very hard not talking about it in a couple episodes

----------


## Fyraltari

*season , Episode 5: Corruption*
*Spoiler: recap*
Show


Padmé is making a diplomatic visit to Mandalore at the behest of Duchess Satine. Turns out that because of the war, Mandalore faces various shortages and as a result the black market is booming which is never good. Padmé and Satine together is bit like a duel of improbable hairstyles, what's weirder? Fashioning your hair into horns or sticking some penne inside? There's a whole crowd of people cheering Padmé on her way from the spaceport to the palace which is apparently a "typical Mandalorian welcome." Huh. Also, turns out that by "diplomatic visit" Satine meant "not talking politic but taking you sightseeing." That's not in my dictionary.

At the same time a group of smugglers arrive and unload crates full of bottles as well as bribe a custom officer. The leaders of the smugglers are snakemen in nifty ancient Egypt-inspired get-ups and the henchmen are of the same species as Greedo's accomplice from last time. They are smuggling in tea but they decide to dilute it with "slabin" to double their margin. One Mando scientist wonders about the slabin's toxicity but the head smuggler says that if the dosage is right, it shouldn't pose a problem. Meanwhile, at the palace, a group of ministers are arguing about the situation, and by arguing I mean throwing names. Padmé intervenes to try to convince them to (re?-)join the Republic to solve their supply problem, but they answer that the Senate is even more corrupt than their planet and start arguing again until Satine sends everyone to their rooms adjourns the meeting.

Satine and Padmé discuss politics over dinner. Apparently Palpatine claims that the war is going much better than it actually is. We get a nice moment of Padmé wistfully thinking of not having to meddle in the war and the less pleasant side of galactic politics. We also get a cringe-worthy line from Sabine "The contamination of greed reaches deep and far within the Republic." The Duchess decides they'll go visit a newly opened hospital tomorrow, as seeing "true good at work" would lift their spirits. However, said hospital is already overcrowed by children, victims of a so-called epidemic, though the head doctor suspects poison but doesn't know which. There are similar situations planet-wide but all the children in the hospital come from the same school.

Satine and Amidala inform Prime Minister Almec who immediately suspects Death Watch to have moved from government targets to full-on terrorism. His grand plan of action is... talking to the ruling council about it. Satine mobilizes her personal guard and sends it to investigate various places while she, Amidala and the doctor head to the school. The doctor hasn't identified anything nocive in the food of the last few days, however once Satine points out the bottled tea many children are drinking, he says that he hasn't tested those as they're not part of the menu but sold by an independent vendor. They bring a bottle to a lab inside the school (holy education budget, batman!) and discover that the tea is laced with slabin, it usually isn't lethal but such a concentration mixed with the tea would cause the children's condition.

They ask the superintendent to show them the school's import log but discover it has been tampered with: there's no record of the buying of the tea. The superintendent tries to leg it and fails. Satine makes an implied threat of torture and he admits to everything. However he doesn't know whether Death Watch is involved as he only dealt with a middle-man. The middle-man, named Sadik, is utterly nonchalant about having accidentally poisoned children, he has apparently not done anything illegal, or at least so illegal that his "corporate contract" can't protect him, but he coughs up the dates and places of the shipments of tea to Mandalore. Oh look there's one scheduled for that very night!

As the Senator and Duchess sneak to the delivery they bound around the fun they're having compared to the usual politicking. They witness the custom official taking his cut from the smugglers. The next day, Satine summons the captain in charge of the customs who refuses to believe any of his men are corrupt or that smugglers could operate on his dock, even when Satine and Padmé tell him they saw it with their own eyes. How did this guy get that job? Anyway, Satine orders him to come with them to arrest the criminals. At the warehouse two of his men refuse to let them pass and attack Satine without any success. A shoot-out ensues between the smugglers and Satine's guards (plus the captain and Padmé). Random thugs versus Mando can you guess who wins? Satine orders the warehouse burnt over the captain's objection that there's evidence inside. And they burn it. What the hell, Satine? Aslo, do they carry flamethrowers at all time?

Satine and Padmé explain to Almec what happened and that supplies of the antidote should be there soon enough to save the children. Satine is enraged by the widespread corruption in her government. Almec decides to set up a comitee to look into it. As Padmé leaves, Satine says that while she trusts Almec she doesn't trust whoever he'll put in charge of the investigation and asks Amidala to arrange for a Jedi to be sent to investigate undercover.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

This wasn't a very good episode. I can't really pinpoint anything _overly wrong_ with it except maybe the heavy-handedness of the "corruption bad" message which isn't even a message I think anybody would dispute. Oh  and that the episode is structured around an investigation we are told the answer to almost immediately. The snake alien had a neat design and I wonder whether that's the only time in _Star Wars_ where smugglers were portrayed as shady criminals rather than rogueish heroic Han-Solo types. I think the Mandalorian guards are the most tactically minded people in the show (using shield as cover and moving a big containers to come into the warehouse while still being protected) which didn't stop the fight from being rather so-so. Basically, this isn't bad as much as it is boring.


Next up: *The Academy*

----------


## Keltest

I... think... part of the point of the episode is to remind you that the republic has real, verifiable issues even without the separatists, and that even without Count Dooku and Palpatine stirring up the conflict into open war, something was going to come to a head. The Trade Federation isnt even a system, but they still had (have?) their own senator. Mandalore is probably right to not trust that the republic would be able to help with its problems much, given that they havent even solved those problems in their own territories.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 3, Episode 6: The Academy*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Ha! The opening narration just called Mandalore "peaceful". Following on last episode, the Jedi Council has tasked Ahsoka Tano to end corruption on Mandalore. No pressure, though. Specifically, she is to instruct the cadets of the Royal Academy of Mandalore such foreign concept as "integrity". Anakin drops her off on the planet before leaving (because she's old enough to fight wars and end systemic corruption but not old enough to drive I guess). Almec and Satine assume he's going to stay as well before he corrects them: the Jedi don't have that many people to spare right now. Honestly I'm even surprised they're sending anyone considering Mandalore isn't with the Republic and they have a war to manage. Oh, and because of Obi-Wan's visit, no-offworlder is allowed to carry a weapon apparently. You know, the visit where all the trouble was caused by native Mandalorians? So Ahsoka has to give her lightsaber to Anakin (what happened to "this weapon is your life"?). Also, they call him "Master Skywalker" which still pisses me off, but given that they later call Ahsoka "Master" too, I guess they're just being exceedingly polite.

Ahsoka teaches the cadets and wow, apparently the concept of courruption *is* utterly unknown to them, with such questions as "so, it's the result of greed?" as is the idea of accountability. Four of the cadets (living in the same room despite being evenly split between girls and boys, guess they have mixed dormitories on Mandalore) decide to put Ahsoka's lesson in practice: one of them thinks that the strict rationing of food doesn't correlate with the transport ships that keep coming in, so they'll go to the warehouses to investigate whether there really is a food-shortage. The doors are heavily secured by the government but their Academy teaching allows them to break in. I'm starting to have serious doubts about the curriculum of this Academy. Mandatory bad feeling about this.

The four of them stumble by sheer unadultered plot luck on a meeting between several of the goat alien smugglers and a hooded figured escorted by Mandalorian police with unmarked uniforms. They start recording the thing. Unfortunately, they are spotted and, though they manage to escape, they drop one of their Academy-issued computer-tablet that the hooded man picks up. Hmmmmmm, I wonder who that could be? My guess is Satine.

Once they're back to their dormitory, they decide to inform the authorities. Turns out one of them is Satine's nephew (I don't recall her sibling(s?) ever being mentionned). They tell Satine that there's tons of food at the port so there's no food shortage (how many people live on Mandalore again?) and that they have a recording of a deal between black marketeers and a government official. She assures them that she's taking all of that seriously and to let her handle it while they focus on their studies but she doesn't even look at the recording. Then again "there'll be a time to save the world when you're a bit older" is probably the most sensible thing anyone has said in this show.

Miffed by this, they decide to call the Prime Minister. He is very interested and wants to know if Satine knows who the conspirator is. Once told she's "looking into it" he asks them to meet him on the plaza during the night with the recording and every cadet who knows about this. Oh and all the other standard stuff: don't call the police, don't bring anybody else, don't bring weapons and if you could write a suicide letter before-hand, you know, as a joke, that'd be nice.

In class, they tell Ahsoka the whole story, including the breaking and entering of government property. They do this, I might add, in front of their classmates who are utterly blasé about the entire thing. Ahsoka points out that they shouldn't rush this kind of thing and should have taken time to examine the situation before acting. the lead cadet (Corki?) says she sounds more like his aunt than a Jedi Knight. Meanwhile Yoda has a buzzing in his ear and he does not know why. Then the bell rings and the whole class leaves without Ahsoka telling them to or assigning homework which is easily the most fantastical thing in this galaxy of space-monk-wizards.

The cadets meet not with Almec but with the same unmarked policemen from before. Turns out they're secret service and here to arrest them for "treason, corruption and conspiracy." A fight breaks out and Ahsoka springs from a rooftop and hands the Mando their asses to them. She's not even armed, that's pathetic, guys. The cadets realize Almec is behind all this but they don't have any proof as the hologram doesn't show the hooded figure's face. Ahsoka points a gizmo at it and orders it to "ID an hologram" which results in Almec's face showing up. [Insert police show joke here].

They rush to warn Satine but her quarters are empty save for the corpses of her guards. Almec just committed a coup to hide bribery? Did Hans Gruber teach him how to do crime? Ahsoka has a plan to discover Satine's whereabouts from Almec: delivering the cadets to him and pretending to believe he's the honest one in this. Almec and Ahsoka go with the cadets as they are being sent to prison and Almec does say that he has Satine "the leader of the conspiracy" in custody but doesn't say where (turns out it's this very building, very stealthy, Almec).

Ahsoka then just says she needs to interrogate the prisoners and they let her in. Amazing. Ahsoka tells the cadets what little progress she has made and to act on her signal, which they'll know when it comes. Then she mind-controls a random grunt to take her to the Duchess. And he happens to know where she is! Satine is kept in some kind of isolation cell but as Tano frees her she reveals that it's a trap and, indeed, Almec shows up and tells the guard to stop play-acting. I think that's the first time I've seen someone pretend to be mind-tricked in SW. Impressive. Apparently the guards have been trained to resist "archaic magics." How? Also, did Ahsoka really not expect the guys she beat up and saw run away would report to their boss?

Almec has Ahsoka stunned and orders Satine to sign a confession of her treason. She says he's the only traitor here. I disagree, there's like a dozen soldiers in the room too. Almec admits to having installed the black market and tries to justify it, saying the profits are used to purchase humanitarian aid, like a new tax. Satine call bull**** and he has her shocked. When she refuses to bulge he decides to torture the cadets instead and has them brought in. Ahsoka and the cadets then overpower the guards and a fight ensues until Ahsoka puts Satine's shock collar on Almec's long neck and shocks him until he surrenders.

Satine and her guards place Almec in her old cell and she tells Ahsoka that she brought her on Mandalore because she suspected something within her government and hoped that working together they could uncover it. Then why didn't you tell her any of this? Ahsoka later leaves after trading some barbs with Anakin.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show


This wasn't as bad as the previous one but it's not very good either. The identity of the villain is easy to guess (Satine is really bad at putting a government together, it seems) and the excuse they found to separate Ahsoka from her lightsaber is obviously just there so she doesn't cleave human beings in two. They could at least have had it be an issue later on. I'm confused by the decision to have the cadets be the main character (yes singular, they're all one character anyway, you could have dropped two of them and changed nothing) rather than Ahsoka. Between this and the *Sphere of Influence* she's getting side-lined a lot. Honestly the main problem with this last couple of episodes is that this show is clearly not equipped to tackle a subject like corruption in politics and so ends up just being very surface-level ("corruption is the result of greed?"). 
Edit: Also a few of the Mando soldiers are noticeably voiced by the clones' actor (Dee Bradley Baker) and, while that makes sense, it's distracting. 


Next up: *The Assassin*

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 3, Episode 7:Assassin*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Sometimes after the finale of last season, Ahsoka is back on Coruscant after successfully completing a mission (the opening implies the last two episodes but they often show stuff that's only thematically related to the episode so I wouldn't bet on it) and the Council congratulates her. You know it's quite rare to see the Jedi Council just legitimately pat someone on the back for a job well done. I guess it happens mostly off-screen. She's to stay at the Temple for the time being to write her report while Anakin is sent on a solo mission. She's miffed, but even Skywalker agrees that some down time would do her some good.

And then she starts dreaming of Aurra Sing assaulting her and gloating that "she" will die. This is especially surprising to Ahsoka because she thought Sing had died when her ship crashed. She goes to Yoda to talk about it and he agrees that they are legitimate visions. He seems happy she's making progress in attuning herself to the Force and advise her to meditate to make sense of it. She does, and her vision shows her Aurra being hired by somebody to kill Padmé. She goes to Amidala and they immediately hug upon seeing one another. Wow, I didn't think they were _that_ close. Gonna need work on that "no attachment" rule, Ahsoka. the Padawan tells the senator about her vision and both Amidala and Captain Typho take it seriously, however Amidala needs to leave Coruscant to a conference hosted by Bail Organa on Alderaan about war refugees.

After having some more visions and being reassured by Yoda that "always in motion, the future is", Tano decides to accompany Padmé to the conference to protect her. On the trip Ahsoka admits to feeling unsure of herself and of her abilities especially when Anakin's not around to guide her. Padmé reassures her by telling her she felt the same when she was her age and had to run the entire system of Naboo. Ladies, neither of those are situations teenagers should ever be in. During the night, Ahsoka has another vision ending with Sing standing next to her bed telling her that it has begun. Lightsaber in hand, she runs to Padmé's bedroom, AotC style but ultimately has to admit that this was a false alarm and meekly go back to bed.

Alderaan looks nice. Also present for the conference are Bail, Mon Mothma, some randos and a platoon of Senate Guards for security. The corridors look exactly like Ahsoka's visions and she has another vision, showing Padmé being shot during her speech at the conference. She tells Amidala and Typho but she can't tell them where Sing is going to be nor whether she ultimately succeeds in her goal. Ahsoka is more and more worried about Padmé but she tells her that she (Amidala) can't let fear stop her from living her life and that she's no stranger to danger. Ahsoka also admits to being more and more confused since apart from her vision nothing points to any danger and maybe she's just imagining things. Padmé has no answer.

However during the speech (Padmé compares the war to the invasion of Naboo and points out that 100 Jedi have already died) her premonitions act up again and for good reasons: Sing is indeed here, having broken a guard's neck and preparing to shoot Padmé with a sniper rifle from one of those oversized air-ducts they always have. Ahsoka arrives soon enough to push the gun resulting in Padmé being shot on the shoulder but the assassin escapes the Padawan. Surprising absolutely no-one Padmé survives and thanks Ahsoka. Organa and Tano wants her to return to Corsucant but she is adamant to give her speech (besides the assassin would simply follow her). Ahsoka then proposes a solution for her to give her speech in safety.

Cut to Bail, Ahsoka and a few guards escorting "Padmé", actually a droid in a robe with the hood up back to the podium. They apparently instructed everybody presents to clap as if it were really Padmé too. Padmé continues her speech remotely: she wants social protection for the homeless and civil rights for the clone troopers (Hey, it's nice to see that someone actually cares about the gene-slave canon-fodder in this galaxy) as well as her usual "let's try diplomacy with the CIS, guys". Say, wasn't this supposed to be about the refugees? Aurra Sing isn't fooled however and Ahsoka senses that she is instead headed for the infirmary where the real senator is. Ahsoka is there, of course, just in time. Sing rants about the last time they met and how Hondo "pull her out of the wreckage" of the Slave One. 
Guess that's all the explanation you need to survive an explosion as big as a two-story house. Amidala states that killing her won't stop her cause but Aurra explains that her employer simply wants revenge on her. Sing actually beats Ahsoka with a pair of blasters.
*Spoiler*
Show



But Padmé uses a gun she had concealed to stun her.

Back on Coruscant, Sing is handed over to the authorities. Gonna be an awkward meeting with Boba, that one. Yoda congratulates the Padawan and asks her to focus to see if she can devine the identity of Aurra's employer. Ahsoka sees large devouring shapes, bizarre laughter and the colour purple. Amidala immediately zeroes in on Ziro. Consequently, Anakin and Ahsoka go pay him a visit. In jail. He naturally denies everything but when Ahsoka says Sing already confessed to his involvement he slips and says he should have hired somebody else. How did this guy ever run a criminal organization, again? They leave while he impotently rages.




*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

This episode was good, which is a relief after the last two. Everybody is competent and I am especially glad that nobody but Ahsoka doubted her vision because it is infuriatingly common for people to dismiss prophetic visions in universes where they are proven to be reliable. Speaking of doubt, Ahsoka's self-doubts are the main focus of the episode and they are handled very well. I like that she even confused a nightmare (Sing being on the ship) for an actual vision. Too bad I'm fairly certain Force-premonitions will never be this useful again. On the villain side, Sing continues to be one of the more competent villains in the show, frankly only failing due to bad luck. I don't often say this but I wish Nute Gunray was in the episode. Because for all of his faults I can grant him this: he's not Ziro.
Wait, did Aurra meet Ziro in his cell? Isn't she a notorious criminal? How did that happen?


Next up: *Evil Plans*

----------


## Sapphire Guard

How many Padme assassination attempts are we at now?

----------


## Peelee

> How many Padme assassination attempts are we at now?


We may as well ask "how many episodes have featured her so far?"  :Small Wink:

----------


## Fyraltari

> We may as well ask "how many episodes have featured her so far?"


Hey now, you're forgetting the movies.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 3, Episode 8: Evil Plans*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Anakin and Padmé are throwing a party (it's been a while since I mentioned how terrible they are at this whole "secret couple" thing, hasn't it?) for a "Senator Ang" who is head of the military oversight committee, hence Padmé is stressed and wants everything to be perfect. Anakin tries to be soothing but he isn't helped by 3-PO being... 3-PO. things aren't helped either by R2 forgetting to by "Jogan fruits" for the big cake. This is the main stake of the episode, friends. So Anakin sends the pair to buy some in a hurry, telling them not to be distracted.

On their way to the market, they are spotted by Cade Bane, TO-DO and a random IG droid. 3-PO finds a marchant selling the last four Jogan fruits on the planet (must be a business partner of Watto's) and gets swindled out of most of the money Skywalker had told him not to get swindled out of. As they leave they are approached by TO-DO who offers them a trip to a droid maintenance spa. I'm confused by this business model, are droids even legally allowed to own money? Anyway, R2 just buys it and goes in while TO-DO shoves 3-PO inside Bane's car. D2 doesn't even notice. Also the fruits' case was dropped on the ground.

While R2 gets pampered (including a confusing massage) Cade's team torture 3-PO and pry inside his memory to find the plans to the senate building. However he has no useful information. But he blurts out that R2 would. I miss the original _star Wars_ when 3-PO wasn't a dumbass. R2 exits the spa and picks up the fruits, only now registering that his "counterpart" is missing. He gets attacked by Bane's droids and escapes. He evades them for a while but when TO-DO speaks of destroying "the Golden One" he gives himself up instead of alerting Anakin. Even TO-DO calls that stupid. Bane's crew get what they need from him and wipe the droids' memory of the event.


Cade delivers the plans to Jabba and is paid. Jabba then offers him a new job for more money, once he's got the agreement of the heads of the Five Hutt Families. They talk about some information that Ziro has that is dangerous to them. And then they hire Cade Bane to spring the guy from prison for them. Meanwhile, the pair of droids is dropped in a street where TO-DO thanks them for the memories and leave. and they get back to the reception just in time for desert. In a h-i-l-a-r-i-o-u-s reversal, Anakin is now the stressed-out one. And the cake is delivered. 3-PO gets one compliment and this lightens his decade.

*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show



Well, this was a nothingburger. The only thing vaguely enjoyable from this is TO-DO. The only point of this episode seems to be to establish the Hutt Council and that the season 1 finale happened because 3-PO is an idiot.
Also I guess we have a timeline for Bane: he attacked the Senate without TO-DO for some reason and only later did he attack the Temple.


Next up: *Hunt for Ziro*

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## Peelee

> This is the main stake of the episode, friends.


I believe you mean "the main fruit".
And speaking of fruits, please excuse me while I dodge all these flying tomatoes.



> Next up: *Hunt for Ziro*


Oh you just know you're going to love an episode that has Ziro in the title.

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## Fyraltari

> I believe you mean "the main fruit".
> And speaking of fruits, please excuse me while I dodge all these flying tomatoes.


I don't get it.




> Oh you just know you're going to love an episode that has Ziro in the title.


Heh, I can't complain any more than I already have.



> *Season** 3, Episode 9: Hunt for Ziro*
> 
> *Spoiler: Recap*
> Show
> 
> This is a follow-up to the last season's finale because that clearly is the most important dangling plot thread right now. Obi-Wan is meeting with a Jedi Knight called Quinlan Vos on Coruscant to pursue Bane and Ziro. Kenobi tells Cody that Vos is crazy and his point is immediately proven by Vos choosing to jump off the dropship that has to land anyway to the platform rather than walk like a normal person. Cody rolls his eyes so hard you can tell he's doing it even though he wears a helmet. This is his only contribution to the episode. Obi-Wan thinks Bane kidnapped Ziro for Jabba as payback for his trying to kill Jabba's son in the pilot movie, however Vos has intel (somehow) that Ziro has dirt on the "Hutt Council" so they're probably behind this. The two of them depart for Nal Hutta to talk to said council.
> 
> Quinlan Vos is right as said council, made up of representatives of the five biggest Hutt crime families and lead by Gardulla the Hutt (I think she was a rival of Jabba's in _Legends_?), only got Ziro out because he keeps an holo-diary of all their criminal activities. And he claims that if he dies the diary will go public. They still throw him in jail. Then they have a party. Full of half-naked twi'lek dancers wearing face concealing masks designed to look like hutt heads. I think it's better not to question that. The lead singer isn't a twi'lek but Sy Snootle, the frog/giraffe/fly hybrid from RotJ. Once she learns that the hutts' happy mood is due to Ziro being locked up in the dungeons she makes an excuse and leave. She reaches the cell block, trick the gamorrean guards into fighting ("Gardulla wants to know which one of you is the strongest"), and talks with Ziro. Apparently the two were lovers, but he ditched her (he says Jabba made him do it), he convinces here to help him escape and they kiss. I know someone somewhere is enjoying that image, and good for them, but that isn't me.
> 
> ...


This is the second time this season that we have a three-episode arc whose middle episode is all the way back in season one, what's up with that?

Next up: *Heroes on Both Sides*. Okay, I'm intrigues, see that title is taken verbatim from RotS' opening scrolls and it's something I was always disappointed that the Prequel-era material failed to deliver on: that the Separatists aren't just a bunch of anarcho-capitalists leading an army of mindlees droids, a lot of them are allegedly normal people fighting for independence from a corrupt government that neglects them. We'll see how they handle that.

----------


## Peelee

> I don't get it.


"Stakes" sounds like "steaks", so I made a joke on switching the "food" based on the importance of the fruit in the episode.

----------


## Fyraltari

> "Stakes" sounds like "steaks", so I made a joke on switching the "food" based on the importance of the fruit in the episode.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 3, Episode 10: Heroes on both Size*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The Senate is in session, Senator Sam (I think he represents the Techno-union but I'm not 100% sure) backed by Lott Dod and the senator for Kamino proposes a bill to increase war spending and, in order to gather the necessary funds, deregulate the banks. Amidala, Organa and Mothma are, naturally, opposed and Padmé does her usual spiel about negotiations. Ultimately Mas Amedda decides to adjourn the meeting for the time being. The representative for the Banking Clans (Clovis has been replaced by a muun), Dod and Sam are unhappy, that bill would have gained them a little fortune. Dod shoots down a proposal to have Amidala assassinated since that never works and the muun suggests a Separatist attack on Coruscant itself to scare the Senate. Sam likes the plan but the muun reminds him that no-one cares what he thinks.

Meanwhile, Padmé is talking to Ahsoka and Anakin. Ahsoka looks older than she did three episodes ago, she's got a new outfit and I think she's taller too? This episode seems to take place much later chronologically than the previous ones. I wonder if someone has managed to make a timeline of this show (hell, Padmé's Rodian uncle, Senator Farr is still alive in this!). Padmé wants Anakin to ask the Jedi Council to plead her case with Palpatine but he says that's not his role. *cough*guardianofpeacemybutt*cough* Ahsoka is a bit confused and Skywalker asks Padmé to teach her a bit of politics. Ahsoka explains that she knows that "the separatists are evil" but she's surprised by the fact that the Senate was talking about finances rather than the reasons behind the war. Anakin chimes in with "the Separatists believe the Republic is corrupt, but they're wrong and we have to restore order." This convinces Padmé that Anakin should stay out of politics. She does borrow Ahsoka, though.

Far away from that, Dooku orders Grievous to strike at Coruscant. He is surprisingly open about the motives behind this attack, too: openly telling the general that he has representatives in the Senate and that the current situation threatens his master's plan. Just how much does Grievous knows about the Sith plan anyway? Does he even care? Back to Coruscant, Padmé decides to talk to an old friend of hers, Senator Bontari, a senator in the Confederacy of Independent Systems! Dun dun dun! Ahsoka is shocked to learn that Amidala is friend with "one of Dooku's pawns". Amidala reminds her that the CIS used to be part of the Republic and many of the senators who left were her friends. It's illegal now for a Republican and a Separatist elected official to meet as it would give the CIS legitimacy but Padmé wants to use Ahsoka's special Jedi clearance to travel to Mandalore, which is neutral and then hop on to CIS space. Ahsoka points out how irregular that is and that she's down for it. She then remarks that Padmé and Anakin are very alike which explains why then get along so well, gnark.

Grievous reports to Dooku that his "infiltrator droids" are ready, along for the communication is the muun senator who tell him to hurry because "the senate is restless" whatever that means. Wait is Dooku on Coruscant? He almost always appears in holograms, has he been hiding on Coruscant for the entirety of the war? Anyhoo, Grievous tell the senator that he doesn't take orders from him. Sounds like the Seppies have a well-defined pecking order. He then gives a speech to the infiltrator droids, it starts as the usual "some of you may not return" but then he corrects himself: it's a suicide mission, none of them are coming back. They don't seem to mind and fold from hulking behemoths to a more innocuous-looking astromech-like appearance before boarding for Coruscant. Ahsoka and Padmé arrive on planet Praxis and are welcomed by Senator Mina Bontari who was apparently a mentor of sorts to Amidala. She doesn't look like the image the Jedi has of a Separatist apparently. They get to Bontari's manor and Ahsoka acts coldly towards her son, Lux. Ahsoka shows how well Anakin trained her in the fine art of diplomacy by immediately accusing Bontari of, as a Separatist, having caused the war. She replies that the Separatists say the same about the Republic and the Jedi (with better footing, I would say). She also explains that Lux's father died a year ago fighting clones in self-defense. Is it called self-defense when you're a soldiers fighting other soldiers? That seems redundant. Tano excuses herself.

She meets Lux who says that before the war he was told the Jedi were good but now, all his friends say they're responsible for the horrors happening. Ahsoka guesses she's the first Jedi he's ever met and tells him to get a good look at her to see whether she's "so bad". He looks her over and says that she isn't bad at all. She concludes that boys are the same all over the galaxy. However Lux counter-guesses that she hasn't met many separatists either (droids don't count). She admits she's only ever met military officers like Grievous and Ventress. (Ventress is military?) He then tells her to look at him to see whether he's "so bad". Cute. Meanwhile Amidala and Bontari have agreed to disagree about Dooku (Bontari admires him) and Padmé explains the Senate situation. Mina states that the Separatist Parliament is in a similar state and she agrees to put a motion on the floor to open negotiations with the Republic, something that Padmé is convinced could gather enough Republican goodwill to establish a truce of sorts. They drink to peace and hope while Padmé glances at Ahsoka and Lux outside.

Cut to the Separatist Parliament (which is modeled after the British one and also much, much smaller than the Republic) where Bontari finishes her plea for peace. One Senator says the corporations would never allow peace to happen and another one retorts that "this is a democracy. And, unlike the Republic, corporations do not rule us." Yeah, you keep telling yourself that, bud. Holo-Dooku calls for a "Aye/Nay" vote on negotiations and the Aye wins. However, in private, Dooku reassures his people in the Republic Senate that the attack is still going to happen and that will shoot down any peace talk. Ahsoka and Padmé say their goodbyes to the Bontaris. Mina says she feels like this time, the tide is turning. (So, you could say you have a good feeling about this?) And Tano tells Lux she wouldn't want to meet him in battle, for his sake.

On Corsucant, Grievous orders the infiltrators, working as cleaning droids, to launch their attack. They fool the security of a power plant (a clone even corrects them on which way to go to reach the generators) and get into position. While that's going on, Palpatine and Padmé discuss the Separatists' olive branch. Of course the Chancellor casts doubts on the sincerity of the offer so Padmé reveals she's been in contact with Bontari. Sheev starts prodding her for more info while the camera zooms on his face. Welp, *someone*'s going to die horribly. Then he agrees to put the vote to the floor. Amidala and her allies start arguing to vote against the increased spendings/deregulation bill to Lott Dod's horror. Fortunately for him, the infiltrators revert to fighting mode and slaughter the power plants' workers and then combine to form bombs. Bombs that explode in the middle of the vote, cutting power to the whole area around the Senate. Hysteria spreads and multiple fires start. Soon afterwards, the attack is confirmed as being Separatist in origin and the senate votes to deregulate the banks and escalate the war effort. Ahsoka returns to Anakin who reveals he knew about their little trip and berates them for it. Ahsoka says that at least she's learned something: this war isn't as black and white as she thought.





*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Aaah, finally a good episode. It has been a while. A bit low on action, I will say (can you believe our last lightsaber duel was _8 episodes ago_?) but still pretty good. The theme is obviously what Ahsoka says at the end and it makes sense that she'd need that lesson: as a young Jedi she has lived a pretty sheltered (maybe isolated is a better word?) life and being in the front lines of a war fought against faceless interchangeable robots wouldn't help get a full picture. The Bontaris are fine as characters but I am disappointed the episode didn't exactly deliver on its title by giving us a heroic Separatist fighting the war (dead father notwithstanding). I'm pretty sure Mina is a goner but I wonder where Lux is headed as a character, especially since they (lightly) teased a relationship with Ahsoka.

I could swear I already commented on the Separatist governing body being called alternatively Parliament, Senate or even Congress, am I going mad? In any case it seems to hold actual power rather than being a facade for the Separatist Council since Dooku has to maneuver around it voting for peace. Also its members seems to genuinely believe they aren't controlled by the corporations who supply them with 99% of their fighting forces. Suuuuure.
speaking of the megacorps, they really are doubling down on the whole war-profiteering evil neutral (as opposed to Satine's good neutral) angle which I still find weird. Like, they want the Republic to deregulate their banks and loan money for them so that it can increase its military spending; but isn't the whole plan to topple the Republic through the CIS? How is the republic going to repay your loans if it is dissolved? And isn't an increased military going to hamper that goal?

Also the episode has a pretty clear political message beyond "war bad and not black&white" again. I won't discuss it for obvious reasons, but I will say that it is better presented than the "privacy invasion act" a while back.

Edit: Idle thought, has there ever been a figure on the relative sizes of the Republic and the CIS?


Next up: *Pursuit of Peace*

----------


## Mechalich

> Edit: Idle thought, has there ever been a figure on the relative sizes of the Republiv and the CIS?


This map, from The Essential Atlas, outlines more or less starting territories for the Republic (in blue) and CIS (in maroon), during the first year of the Clone Wars (in the Legends version). However, raw territory doesn't reveal a whole lot. Well over half of the galactic population lives in the Core and Colonies (the two inner rings) and the population of huge portions of the Outer Rim is effectively nil by comparison. Coruscant's trillion-plus residents alone beats whole sectors. However, the CIS does hold a number of heavily settled rim areas along major hyperlanes. Plausibly the CIS only represented around 10% of the galactic population (that's still quadrillions of people).

At the same time, industrial output in Star Wars doesn't scale with population at all, with a handful of major factory worlds and shipyard planets outputting the majority of the military materiel of the entire galaxy. Kuat, all by itself, could reasonably be credited with a double-digit percentage of total galactic military production. The CIS, through its control of the major trade conglomerates, was much closer to parity with the Republic in terms of military output at the beginning of the Clone Wars. However, during the conflict Palpatine's militarization and reformation of the economy utterly buried the CIS by the end of the war. There's an extremely obvious and almost certainly deliberate historical parallel here, but forum rules prohibit discussing it.

----------


## dancrilis

> I wonder if someone has managed to make a timeline of this show


Indeed they have, an offical one even.

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## Fyraltari

> This map, from The Essential Atlas, outlines more or less starting territories for the Republic (in blue) and CIS (in maroon), during the first year of the Clone Wars (in the Legends version).


Thanks. You know I keep forgetting that the Unknown Regions make up a whopping 1/3 of the glalxy, what's up with that?



> Indeed they have, an offical one even.


Thank you.

----------


## Mechalich

> Thanks. You know I keep forgetting that the Unknown Regions make up a whopping 1/3 of the glalxy, what's up with that?


Hyperspace anomalies preventing exploration to the 'west' of the galactic core established as a containment measure by...beings you're about to encounter 5 episodes down the line.

----------


## Kornaki

> Hyperspace anomalies preventing exploration to the 'west' of the galactic core established as a containment measure by...beings you're about to encounter 5 episodes down the line.


As someone who watched the whole series, I totally forgot about this I guess.

----------


## Mechalich

> As someone who watched the whole series, I totally forgot about this I guess.


*Spoiler: complex bit of Legends/TCW lore crossover*
Show


So this is one of those weird things where since TCW is part of both continuities, elements from it got integrated into each continuity in different ways. Specifically, since TCW is effectively the first expanded universe to be published for the Disney canon it became foundational, but for Legends, since it was among the last legends sources to see publication, it was used to integrate and retcon a bunch of stuff.

The unknown regions being primarily a huge chunk of the galactic west in Star Wars is mostly an artifact of the galactic map drawn for the New Jedi Order book series. The people behind that map simply decided that the unknown regions - which has been established as being a huge chunk of the galaxy in _Vision of the Future_ - was broadly confined to one side of the galaxy. This facilitated the overall invasion narrative of the NJO, so that's fine but there was no coherent explanation at that time. It was only post-NJO when this bit of galactic geography was attributed to the actions of the Celestials, a phenomenally powerful progenitor groups of people/gods/Force entities. A number of other bizarre and astrophysically impossible bits of Star Wars lore were glommed together under that umbrella in the Essential Atlas and SWTOR when they curated the Pre-Republic history of Star Wars somewhat (though SWTOR actually opens up a bunch of the galactic west as Zakuul territory during later expansions, but I guess that navigation data was lost as some point after the war ended). Ultimately the beings known as The Ones, who appear in the Mortis arc of TCW, were explicitly labeled as Celestials in some of the final Legends novels. The Disney canon does not label the Ones as Celestials (it's history is muddled and extremely patchy compared to Legends, but grows to resemble that of Legends more and more over time so the broad strokes of Legends will probably ultimately remain accurate), however Rebels does have Palpatine refer to the Ones as 'The Mortis Gods' which certainly affords them the agency for this sort of thing.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Hyperspace anomalies preventing exploration to the 'west' of the galactic core established as a containment measure by...beings you're about to encounter 5 episodes down the line.


Uuuuuuuugh.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 3, Episode 11, Pursuit of Peace*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The senate is outraged by the unprovoked attack during peace talks (what do you mean, "unprovoked"? You people are at war!) and the kaminoan senator suggests purchasing five millions clones [insert joke about the scales of SW armies here] which would be payed by taking a huge loan from the Interplanetary Banking Clan. Padmé and Bail of course object and Amidala guesses that the attack was an attempt to sabotage the peace talks as she knows for a fact not everybody in the CIS wants to fight. This gets her called a traitor by the vampire-looking proto-imperial senator who got killed last season. This is the moment Mas Amedda chooses to show a message sent by Count Dooku: he accuses the republic of an attack on their soil that killed Mina Bontari (well, that was fast) and therefore withdraws the peace proposal offered by the CIS. The Senate once more descends into chaos.

Amidala, Organa and Farr meet up to discuss their next move and Bail says that Republic spies have evidence that Dooku had Bontari killed. I'm surprised he's got access to that intel, I thought Palpatine would have had a better grasp on Republic Intelligence. they resolve to keep fighting the bill, but they're gonna need ammunition. "But we can't afford ammunition, remember?" says Farr. God that joke was so bad that I first thought he was legitemately confused, there. Padmé and him go to the IBC to learn what interest rates they plan on demanding of the Senate. "You know these banking Clans people, plus you owe me for telling such a bad joke." Hey remember that time you betrayed your oath to the Republic and almost had your people turn to the other side? Fun times.

The Banking Clan plans to demand an outrageous 25% of interest instead of their usual 10%. Oh, and the seppies have already secured a loan to fund 3 millions more droids. "They would wipe us out". Would they, though? B1s are pretty ****. Back with Organa, Padmé explains that the interests alone would be enough to bankrupt the Republic which, because of the war, already has underfunded infrastructure, healthcare and education. So, it's basically guaranteed that the IBC would never get their money back, then? Bail points out that this makes their job of arguing against that proposal that much easier. In fact, they only need a handful senators more to get a majority. However many senators have received threats to dissuade them from voting against the bill. Indeed, we see Farr being beaten by a selkath and another amphibious alien who I think worked with Bane on the senate attack (if that's the case I can only wonder how he still is on Coruscant).

The next morning, several senators refuse to listen to Padmé, while Farr, his arm in a cast and accompanied by his future murderer, states that he intends to vote against, no matter what. Meanwhile in a twi'lekki strip club the two thugs report to Dooku who orders them to assassinate Padmé. Because that worked out so well the twenty-seven last times. Padmé asks Bail, the finest orator she knows, to speak beofre the full Senate to oppose the bill. Isn't that exactly what he's been doing? He goes to work on a speech while she visits some unconviced senators. One of whom is a quarren who A) doesn't want to get beat up, B) doesn't care about the casualties of war since clones were bred for that purpose, C) only cares about his constituents since they are the ones who put him in office. When asked when was the last time he spoke to one of the people he represents he replies that would be about the same time either of them (Farr is also there) did, which hits Amidala close to home. However he wants to know Organa's stance on this (hasn't he made that pretty clear allready?) and will listen to what *he* has to say.

On her way home, Padmé is attacked by the two hitmen (who killed her driver) and is saved by two police droids who distract the assasins long enought for her to steal a jetbike. The selkath manages to tether himself to her bike while the other follow on his own bike. There's a chase scene during which the selkath survives a truly absurd amount of high-speed collisions and they attract some more police droids, one of them even drops his drink(-analog?) as they pass his car by. Fifth Element homage? Eventually Padmé gets arrested for stealing the bike while the "bounty hunters" make their escape. Back in her appartments, Padmé laments the state of democracy and her aid, Tekla says that unlike the other politicians, Padmé does listen to her people. This prompts Amidala (clearly thinking back to the quarren's comment) to ask her how her family is doing and how the war is affecting them all, in details.

The next morning, Organa is attacked by the hitmen, but he's apparently the only politician on the planet to have a security detail and the two are captured by Alderaani guards and Coruscanti police. However Organa is injured in the kerfuffle. Organa can't even stand on his own right now so he begs Padmé to deliver a speech in his stead before passing out. Padmé doesn't feel she's up to it, as the senators are expecting "the great bail Organa" and she's not nearly as respected but Tekla convinces her to speak up saying that they will listen to her becasue she listens to the people. Padmé makes a passionated speech where she explains that the Republic is loosing track of what it is fighting for and that her aide and many of their people live in squalor (Tekla's district apparently has no electricity or running water so her children can only bathe once every two weeks. I get your point Padmé but maybe pay her more?) so they mustn't divert even more funds to war. The speech is broadcasted all over Corsucant and the whole Senate applauds.

Cut to Palpatine's office. He finds it remarkable that one could have all the power in the Galaxy but a simple senator's words can sway the thoughts of millions.
*Spoiler: hmm, if only there were a word for this...*
Show



Amedda asks him what he plans to do about it and he answers that they must adhere to the principles of democracy... for now.





*Spoiler: my thoughts*
Show

 Heh, back to mediocre-town. This feels redundant with the previous episode. I'm a bit surprised that Dooku would be the ones to hire the bounty hunters rather than sidious or the Banking Clan. I mean, he really isn't supposed to be in favor of increased Republican military spending. By the way, nothing to indicate that IBC guy lying about the Seppies increasing their own military so, war soon lost I guess? I never really figured that Organa had so much more presence in the senate than Padmé. Makes sense, he was a runner-up for Chancellor (sorta: Organa, Antilles, who's keeping track?). While Padmé's speech was neat, it didn't really adress the issue of the loan did it? I would say the whole thing is rather forgetable except the scene between Padmé and her aide (a nice touch) and Palpatine's bit at the end. Also I guess this demonstrates that in this show Amedda is in on the plan to eventually form the Empire.


Next up: *Nightsisters*.

----------


## Aeson

> Thanks. You know I keep forgetting that the  Unknown Regions make up a whopping 1/3 of the glalxy, what's up with  that?


I would suggest that what's up with that is that some  of the EU writers wanted unexplored space and didn't care about how it  ties in with the movies; it is also worth mentioning that the Unknown  Regions first appeared in a book where hyperspace travel times were  represented as normally being on the order of days to weeks, if not  longer, despite hyperspace travel times in the movies appearing to be on  the order of hours (and quite possibly less) to maybe a day at the  outside, and despite the abundance of small hyperspace-capable craft,  such as starfighters, whose interiors are rather ill-suited to prolonged  occupancy.

Also, unless you want to argue that Jocasta Nu is  either monumentally stupid or willfully ignorant in addition to being  arrogant when she claimed that "if something does not appear in the Jedi  Archives then it does not exist," I would suggest that the Unknown  Reaches cannot have existed as such in the waning days of the Republic,  because a blanket claim such as that from someone who should know what  she's talking about only makes sense if the galaxy is largely explored  and the Jedi Archives are regularly updated with information from a  large part of it.

I would further suggest that the "hyperspace  travel is only generally feasible on well-mapped routes due to  (dangerous things)" explanation for the existence of the Unknown Regions  does not fit particularly well with the movies, either - places like  Hoth and Dagobah seem like places more likely to be marked with the  hyperspace equivalent of "dangerous reef here" than to be on or  particularly near well-mapped regions of hyperspace; something like the  Rebel fleet rendezvous at the end of _The Empire Strikes Back_  seems like an unlikely area to have been explored at all, given that  it's seemingly a considerable distance outside of the galaxy and thus is  unlikely to have been an interesting direction of exploration for  trade, colonization, or resource exploitation.

The Unknown  Reaches make somewhat more sense if they're a result of a fragmentation  of information under or after the fall of the Empire, though even then  that has some issues with the apparent abundance of freelance traders,  independent smugglers, and even personal hyperspace-capable starships  which are seemingly available to the  not-especially-wealthy-and-well-connected - Luke and Obi-Wan were able  to put together the 2,000-credit down payment on their ticket to  Alderaan with whatever they had on them and the proceeds from the sale  of Luke's used and slightly out-of-style sportscar-analogue of a  landspeeder, and Luke claimed that Han's initial asking price of 10,000  credits was almost enough to buy their own ship - as navigational  information for at least the local region or common trade destinations  would need to be available to these people.

----------


## Peelee

> Also, unless you want to argue that Jocasta Nu is  either monumentally stupid or willfully ignorant in addition to being  arrogant when she claimed that "if something does not appear in the Jedi  Archives then it does not exist,"


She was obviously a Sith, dealing in absolutes like that.

Anyway, I feel like there's some conflating Unknown Regions and Wild Space (not your post, but a couple others generally). All Wild Space is Unknown Regions, but not all Unknown Regions is Wild Space. Unknown Regions is just what's unmapped, while Wild Space is where weird or complex or dynamic shifts and changes are happening, making it difficult to navigate and explore.

----------


## Mechalich

> I would suggest that what's up with that is that some of the EU writers wanted unexplored space and didn't care about how it ties in with the movies; it is also worth mentioning that the Unknown Regions first appeared in a book where hyperspace travel times were represented as normally being on the order of days to weeks, if not longer, despite hyperspace travel times in the movies appearing to be on the order of hours (and quite possibly less) to maybe a day at the outside, and despite the abundance of small hyperspace-capable craft, such as starfighters, whose interiors are rather ill-suited to prolonged occupancy.


Hyperspace travel can take days to weeks, or it can take mere hours. It depends on the speed of the ship in question - military vessels and the Millennium Falcon are very fast compared to typical civilian vessels - and the stability of the hyperlane. Hyperspace is like the internet, the better the connection the faster the packets move, and the variance between the very best connections, the superhyperlanes like the Hydian Way, and a ship charting its own course in unknown space are vast.




> Also, unless you want to argue that Jocasta Nu is either monumentally stupid or willfully ignorant in addition to being arrogant when she claimed that "if something does not appear in the Jedi Archives then it does not exist," I would suggest that the Unknown Reaches cannot have existed as such in the waning days of the Republic, because a blanket claim such as that from someone who should know what she's talking about only makes sense if the galaxy is largely explored and the Jedi Archives are regularly updated with information from a large part of it.


You can map things in space without visiting them. In fact, you can map them without actually seeing them directly at all (that's how exoplanets get discovered). There is absolutely nothing contradictory about the Jedi Archives having a complete stellar and even planetary catalog of the galaxy and at the same time having no idea whatsoever what lives in a huge chunk of the galaxy.




> I would further suggest that the "hyperspace travel is only generally feasible on well-mapped routes due to (dangerous things)" explanation for the existence of the Unknown Regions does not fit particularly well with the movies, either - places like Hoth and Dagobah seem like places more likely to be marked with the hyperspace equivalent of "dangerous reef here" than to be on or particularly near well-mapped regions of hyperspace; something like the Rebel fleet rendezvous at the end of The Empire Strikes Back seems like an unlikely area to have been explored at all, given that it's seemingly a considerable distance outside of the galaxy and thus is unlikely to have been an interesting direction of exploration for trade, colonization, or resource exploitation.


Hyperspace travel is travel between star _systems_, the actual content of those star systems is almost completely irrelevant to how difficult it is to reach them. The dangers of hyperspace are mostly stellar scale or larger problems - like supernovas and black holes. The galactic core is nearly impassable via hyperspace because the stars are so close together. At the end of ESB the Rebel Fleet specifically chose to travel above the galactic plane, this was not particularly dangerous since there's nothing in the way out there, though it was surely extremely fuel intensive (maybe they had a surplus at that point).





> Anyway, I feel like there's some conflating Unknown Regions and Wild Space (not your post, but a couple others generally). All Wild Space is Unknown Regions, but not all Unknown Regions is Wild Space. Unknown Regions is just what's unmapped, while Wild Space is where weird or complex or dynamic shifts and changes are happening, making it difficult to navigate and explore.


That's the Disney canon definition. The Legends definition is different. In Legends Wild Space is the marginal section of space that has been partially explored _between_ known space and the Unknown Regions. Basically the relationship flips between the two versions of canon for no good reason.

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## Aeson

*Spoiler: Reply to Mechalich*
Show




> Hyperspace travel can take days to weeks, or  it can take mere hours. It depends on the speed of the ship in question -  military vessels and the Millennium Falcon are very fast compared to  typical civilian vessels - and the stability of the hyperlane.  Hyperspace is like the internet, the better the connection the faster  the packets move, and the variance between the very best connections,  the superhyperlanes like the Hydian Way, and a ship charting its own  course in unknown space are vast.


All of this is a bunch of  stuff made up for the EU that has no real support in the movies. Also,  it's awfully convenient that every location in the movies apparently  just happens to be somewhere with a good connection - even though  Kamino's reclusive and isolationist while Tatooine's supposed to be a  relatively lawless backwater - and every hyperspace journey, including  the one on the presumably-civilian AA-9 freighter that Anakin and Padme  took from Coruscant to Naboo in _Attack of the Clones_, appears to take not more than a day.




> You can map things in space without visiting them. In fact, you can map  them without actually seeing them directly at all (that's how exoplanets  get discovered). There is absolutely nothing contradictory about the  Jedi Archives having a complete stellar and even planetary catalog of  the galaxy and at the same time having no idea whatsoever what lives in a  huge chunk of the galaxy.


"If an item does not appear in the  Archives, then it does not exist." A rather broader statement than "If a  planet or star does not appear in our records, then it does not exist,"  no?




> The dangers of hyperspace are mostly  stellar scale or larger problems - like supernovas and black holes.


Supernovae  are essentially static obstacles over a timescale of weeks, or even  months, when you're dealing with the kinds of distances you'd be looking  at for interstellar travel; on top of that, supernovae are _rare_  even when you're talking about an entire galaxy's worth of stars, and  they also affect a relatively small area (NASA, for example, suggests  that a supernova would need to occur within 50 lightyears of Earth to  have a significant deleterious effect on the planet; the Milky Way, for  comparison, is ~100,000 lightyears in diameter while the Galaxy Far Far  Away was canonically ~120,000 lightyears last I knew).

Given that  EU material appears to regard the effect of realspace objects on  hyperspace as something gravitational (the various interdictors of the  EU use "gravity well projectors" to interfere with hyperspace travel),  or at least mass-related (massive objects are said to project "mass  shadows" in hyperspace), in nature, there should not be any significant  difference between a black hole and a similarly-massive star at any  reasonable distance from the two bodies.

Also, if you look at _A New Hope_, Han brings up "fly[ing] *through* a star" and "*bounc[ing]*  too close to a supernova" as risks associated with blind or ill-planned  hyperjumps. Flying through a star implies that you're actually hitting  it in some sense; "bouncing" suggests dropping out of hyperspace and  then jumping back into it, which w.r.t. supernovae could be an issue if  you come out in the middle of the wave of gamma rays released by it or  something else like that. We also see one concrete example of a thing  which could be a threat to hypertravel in the movie: the "uncharted  meteor shower" that was Alderaan, which strikes the _Millennium Falcon_  after it drops out of hyperspace after leaving Tatooine. Between the  verbiage used and what we actually see occur in the movie, this suggests  that the reason why making "blind" hyperjumps is a bad idea has a lot  in common with why jumping into water when you don't know what lies  beneath the surface is a bad idea: You need to know what's on the other  end of your jump so that you can avoid putting yourself into a dangerous  situation. These are concrete, readily-understandable dangers which do  not need the EU's nebulous "hyperspace anomalies," even if realistically  speaking it seems somewhat unlikely that randomly jumping through  hyperspace would actually put you into such a situation.

Moreover, that "uncharted meteor shower" that the _Millennium Falcon_ ran into at the former location of Alderaan? That's _exactly_ the sort of thing which you'd want to know about before jumping into a star system, it's apparently the sort of thing that _does_  show up on the navigational charts that Han Solo has given that he  complains that that one isn't on any of his charts, and it's something  that would be quite difficult to map at astronomical distances. Imagine  if Death Squadron had come out of hyperspace in the Hoth asteroid field  rather than in clear space, for instance - the Star Destroyers had  trouble enough with it just moving into it in real space, where their turbolasers could afford them some protection against the asteroids.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 3, Episode 12: Nightsisters*
*Spoiler: recap*
Show

On Serenno, Darth Tyranus is called by his Master. "I feel a disturbance in the Force", of course you do. Sidious can feel Asajj Ventress's growing strength in the Force and he worries that his apprentice is planning to overthrow him and install her as the next Sith Lady. He demands Tyranus proves his loyalty by having Ventress eliminated which he reluctantly agrees to. Meanwhile Asajj is fighting a space battle against Anakin, Obi-Wan and their forces. There's a bit of banter between the two Jedi (they really do sound like friends, now) and both Ventress and Kenobi crash-land into a bizarrely empty hangar on the Separatist flagship with Anakin following. The assassin calls Dooku for help (what can he do?) stating that she's surrounded (the Jedi should be, but okay). Her master says that she's "failed him for the last time" (cute) and that he's recalled her reinforcements and that he is renouncing her apprenticeship and leaving her to die. The Jedi order Ventress to surrender, which she refuses and start fighting one against two. while she could fight either one, she can't take both and is clearly loosing. In desperation she manages to strangle them both (a nice touch, that's the dark Side for you). Dooku meanwhile, isn't taking any chances and orders the rest of the fleet to open fire on their command ship. (Yularen must be soooo confused.) As the ship start to fall apart both the Jedi and Ventress escape on-board their surprisingly still functionnal fighters but Assajj's is caught in the explosion of the cruiser. Dooku orders his fleet to retreat.

Some time later, Tyranus calls Sidious to report on Ventress's death and the sith Master is content. Shouldn't be, though, because a scavenger crew (the leader of which appears to be the guy Padmé stole a bike from last time) find her still alive in her ship and take her aboard. She orders them to take her to Dathomir and when they refuse, saying there are only witches and fog there, she murders them all and flies the ship herself. She arrives at some kind of temple and his greeted by the Nightsisters who want to kill her for being an outsider, which she denies. She is saved by the arrival of the Nightsisters' leader: Mother Talzin but she passes out from her wounds/exhaustion. Talzin commences a ritual to heal her using the Water of Backstory Exposition Life
 which causes her to dream of her past. As a baby Talein was "forced to give [her] up to protect the clan" to some guy of the same species as the jerk instructor on Kamino. When she was, like, ten, that man, her master, was killed by some weeqays attacking a city. A random Jedi felt her strength in the Force and took her under his wing. Her luck with weeqays didn't improve though, since her master was killed by some a few years later (she had  hair on her head at the time) which drove her towards the Dark Side. She was then taken in by Dooku and we got back to where we were.

Now fully healed, Ventress decides to take revenge on Count Dooku and Talzin is 100% supportive of that. She gives her the two best warriors of the tribe, a potion of invisibility a poison dart to dull Tyranus's senses and trouble his vision (instead of, you know, _kill him_) and lightsabers. Should they fail, it would be better for Dooku to think Jedi were behind this attack. Say what you will of Talzin but she is a supportive mother. The three sneak into Dooku's palace with no difficulty and find him sleeping in his room. The Sith Lord apparently still adhere to the Jedi precept of sleeping without a bedsheet, so I guess he's not totally corrupt. Assajj blows the dart into his neck, which wakes him up. He grabs his lightsaber and realizing he can't see his opponents, he simply states that "I don't need my eyes to see you, Jedi"and fight all three of them with his eyes closed. while drugged up. In his pajamas. Dooku's a badass. The fight moves to his office/throne room and, when they manage to disarm him, he fries the **** out of all three at once before yeeting them through his window. This dispells their invisibility and when one of the sisters comment on Dooku's power Ventress angrily replies that she warned them. Girl, you said to be on their guards, not that he could thrown ****ing elictricity out of his fingers!

The Nightsisters get back to Dathomir with their tails between their legs but Mother Talzin is unfazed: now Dooku will feel vulnerable and seek a replacement for Ventress. If I were him I'd have my bodyguards closer to my bedroom, but whatever. Talzin then calls Dooku and says that she's "seen" Ventress's death and offers him a replacement. MAybe a male from her planet, this time? Once the communication is over she reassures ventress that killing Dooku is still the plan.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

And we're back to he good stuff. This might just be my favourite episode of the season. Maybe it's just that I was starved for some lightsaber action. Can you believe we went ten episodes without a proper duel?! Dooku and ventress parting ways is the first shake up to the _status quo_ since season 1. in retrospect I'm a bit disappojnted that we didn't see them interact more before this, besides "here are your orders -yes master," as this would have made it more impactful (especially since Doku says she's "important to him.") and would have allowed to avoid some of that clunky exposition of her backstory. This was a villain focused episode and it was about time the Dark Side stepped into the paradoxical spotlight!

Sidious: His actions are a tad nonsensical here. He says he can sense Ventress's power but if that so why does he accept Tyranus's words that she is dead? Can't he sense that she isn't? while I don't think Dooku had any precise plan to take him out in mind, I suspect he was right that Tyranus inteded to promote ventress to full Sith eventually. He asks for Tyranus's personal loyalty but doesn't that go straight agaisnt the Rule of Two? The Apprentice is supposed to plot behind the Master's back. Besides if he's worried Dooku is plotting against him, sin't tasking him with taking ventress out a huge risk? if not for the need of the plot to move in the right way, I feel like Sidious would have arranged Assajj's death on his own behind Dooku's back. I guess he probably feels confident that Dooku can't touch him until the war is over and maybe he wasn't entirely sure he'd have Ankin on his side by then, but then that just raises the question of what he told Tyranus the end-game for the war was. This isn't really a detriment to the episode, though, he's only there to create a rift.

Dooku: About time he did something in person, that one. And that's only because somebody attacked him.  :Small Wink:  Still this episode really shows how dangerous he is in a fight. When it comes to mistaking the Sisters as Jedi a thing bugs me: while I can forgive him not recognizing Ventress's presence in the Force because of the poison, not being surprised by not feeling the Light that would accompany Jedi beacuse RotJ implies that the more dipped you are in the Dark Side the less you can feel the Light in people and I can accept that he truly believes the JEdi would send assassins after him; does he really thik the Jedi can turn invisible? I get not questionning it during the fight but maybe he'll get suspicious in later episodes because he seems to have an history with Talzin (she's got his number) so he may know her powers and the timing of her call was suspiscious as all heck.

The Nightsisters: I know them from _Legends_, rather, I know they are in various books and I played _Empire at war: Forces of Corruption_ where you can find Silri a Nightsister who rides a Rancor, which is awesome, and has a lightwhip, which is ocnfusing. I think that before this show, _Legends_ presented them as just another dark Side cult which is boring. I like the angle this show is going for: as a group unrelated to the Jedi, they don't understand the Force in terms of Dark and Light which are Jedi concepts (and Sith but they're essentially Jedi schismatics) and have develloped other abilities like those potions. i wonder what Talzin's game is exactly. I don't think she's taking all those risks just for Ventress but I don't know why _she_ would want Dooku dead. Also who was that guy who was apparently powerful enough to threaten the clan but got murdered by some random weeqays?

Ventress: Hey look who just got a boatload of characterization! Turns out the assasin is a troubled youth going from Master to Master. No wonder she takes Dooku's betrayal so poorly. Especially since he was a Master in both of the ways her previous Masters were: an owner and a teacher. There's a good chance she's just latching on another Mistress with Talzin here, though. Obviously she can't kill Dooku, so I wonder where her story is leading to. Die trying? Ally with the Jedi? I find both unlikely. Maybe just say "**** it" and leave the war behind to become her own person? We'll see. Well, most of you already know, I guess, so I'll see. One nitpick: I don't really buy her having been a padawan for years and this not having come up even once before in the show.


Next up: *Monster*

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## Peelee

Unpopular opinion: lightsaber duels are not necessary in Star Wars, they are best when there is proper emotional and weight behind them, and over-reliance on needing "cool" lightsaber duels was a staggering weakness in the prequel trilogy and a full-on detriment in the sequel trilogy.

----------


## Keltest

As far as the Rule of Two goes, the apprentice is only allowed and expected to plot to the extent that the master cant catch him at it. If the apprentice gets caught, then the master is allowed and expected to intervene. Being able to successfully plot around your master is the sign that its time for the apprentice to graduate.

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## Fyraltari

> Unpopular opinion: lightsaber duels are not necessary in Star Wars, they are best when there is proper emotional and weight behind them, and over-reliance on needing "cool" lightsaber duels was a staggering weakness in the prequel trilogy and a full-on detriment in the sequel trilogy.


All fights are best when there is emotional weight behind it and spectacle isn't a substitute for a good story but spectacle is good to and when I go to the Star Wars I expect some cool fights. Not like one fight every episode but ten episodes without one is a lot.



> As far as the Rule of Two goes, the apprentice is only allowed and expected to plot to the extent that the master cant catch him at it. If the apprentice gets caught, then the master is allowed and expected to intervene. Being able to successfully plot around your master is the sign that its time for the apprentice to graduate.


Sure but Dooku didn't plot anything as far as we know. Him tutoring Ventress wasn't a secret or anything. Besides, as I said I don't mind Sidious wanting to pre-emptively remove Ventress, what I think goes against the rule of Two is the demand that Tyranus be loyal to him. He's not supposed to be.

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## Keltest

> Sure but Dooku didn't plot anything as far as we know. Him tutoring Ventress wasn't a secret or anything. Besides, as I said I don't mind Sidious wanting to pre-emptively remove Ventress, what I think goes against the rule of Two is the demand that Tyranus be loyal to him. He's not supposed to be.


The rule of two uses the terms Master and Apprentice deliberately. The Master is in charge, and the apprentice is expected to follow him until he is ready to claim the title for himself.

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## dancrilis

> Unpopular opinion: lightsaber duels are not necessary in Star Wars, they are best when there is proper emotional and weight behind them, and over-reliance on needing "cool" lightsaber duels was a staggering weakness in the prequel trilogy and a full-on detriment in the sequel trilogy.


To support this Star Wars: A New Hope only had one 'duel' and it had the emotional weight and little to none of the flash.




> Sure but Dooku didn't plot anything as far as we know. Him tutoring Ventress wasn't a secret or anything. Besides, as I said I don't mind Sidious wanting to pre-emptively remove Ventress, what I think goes against the rule of Two is the demand that Tyranus be loyal to him. He's not supposed to be.


There is likely an unwritten rule of the Sith where you are meant to obey your master until you can remove them - Palpatine wanted something it was Dooku's job to do it, why Palpatine wanted it and what reasons he had for wanting it and whether Dooku succeeded at it are likely not relevant providing that Dooku gave it a reasonable attempt.

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## Peelee

> To support this Star Wars: A New Hope only had one 'duel' and it had the emotional weight and little to none of the flash.


All of the OT were the same. There wasn't ballet-fighting until the PT And the best movie of the ST was IMO the one with zero lightsaber duels.

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## Fyraltari

> All of the OT were the same.


The fighting in tESB and RoTJ were a lot flashier than in ANH.

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## Peelee

> The fighting in tESB and RoTJ were a lot flashier than in ANH.


They had better lighting, better cinematography, better set design, and were better choreographed. But I would not call either one "flashy".

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## Aeson

> the best movie of the ST was IMO the one with zero lightsaber duels.


So... none of them?

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## Fyraltari

> They had better lighting, better cinematography, better set design, and were better choreographed. But I would not call either one "flashy".


In ANH they just shook their glowsticks at one another until Obi-Wan took a dive, in the next two it actually looks like they actually try to hit each other.

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## Peelee

> So... none of them?


HA! I meant the post-Disney purchase movies overall, and was specifically referring to _Rogue One_, but yeah, I totally messed up the writing on that.

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## Jasdoif

> In ANH they just shook their glowsticks at one another until Obi-Wan took a dive, in the next two it actually looks like they actually try to hit each other.


If I recall from one of the many things I've seen/read over the years....lightsabers were originally envisioned as being "heavy" and cumbersome to wield effectively, and this was changed after _A New Hope_ to allow for a more dynamic and interesting-looking conflict between Luke and Vader.  (And somewhere between _Attack of the Clones_ and _Revenge of the Sith_, when an effort was made to codify lightsaber fighting styles, Form II/Makashi would take on the implied "centered on economy of motion, loosely based on traditional swordplay" traits)

----------


## Peelee

> If I recall from one of the many things I've seen/read over the years....lightsabers were originally envisioned as being "heavy" and cumbersome to wield effectively, and this was changed after _A New Hope_


I am pressing X to doubt.

I tells ya, Lucas and "what Star Wars was originally envisioned as"....

----------


## Jasdoif

> I am pressing X to doubt.
> 
> I tells ya, Lucas and "what Star Wars was originally envisioned as"....


Sure doesn't look like the inertia-agnostic movements that become prevalent later in the franchise.  I'm also not sure what "heavy" is supposed to mean outside the context of lightsaber-vs-lightsaber, what with how matter offers little in the way of resistance that would normally display the effects of weight.  (Nor am I entirely sure this isn't just another case of after-the-fact justification, that Lucas simply wrote and directed the scene the way he wanted it to appear and then someone was obligated(?) to come up with an explanation; but we could be here all day on that angle)

----------


## Peelee

> Sure doesn't look like the inertia-agnostic movements that become prevalent later in the franchise.  I'm also not sure what "heavy" is supposed to mean outside the context of lightsaber-vs-lightsaber, what with how matter offers little in the way of resistance that would normally display the effects of weight.  (Nor am I entirely sure this isn't just another case of after-the-fact justification, that Lucas simply wrote and directed the scene the way he wanted it to appear and then someone was obligated(?) to come up with an explanation; but we could be here all day on that angle)


Luke also weilds it in the super beginner training without much effort when practicing with the remote. And Kenobi calls them "elegant" and "not clumsy", neither of which give a sense of "heavy and cumbersome".

No chance you could find the interview or whatever where Lucas pulled that out, is there? I know a lot of his wild claims from the early days are lost to time.

----------


## Jasdoif

> No chance you could find the interview or whatever where Lucas pulled that out, is there?


I don't even remember if I originally read it, saw it, or heard it....But searching for specific wording I remember led me to this YouTube clip; with Mark Hamill and George Lucas talking about weight at the 3:33 mark.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

It's been mentioned a few places, including Empire of Dreams.  Lucas' original inspiration was Errol-Flynn style fencing, but by the time he got into production he changed his mind to incorporate something closer to Kendo, likely inspired by the samurai films he enjoyed.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

I think this is my favourite arc in the series.

Re lightsabre duels, there's no one thing that makes them work, it's a style preference. Clone Wars does get pretty repetitive though.

A bit puzzling that Dooku can't sense Ventress alive, but we could handwave it with her hiding it somehow.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I think this is my favourite arc in the series.
> 
> Re lightsabre duels, there's no one thing that makes them work, it's a style preference. Clone Wars does get pretty repetitive though.
> 
> A bit puzzling that Dooku can't sense Ventress alive, but we could handwave it with her hiding it somehow.


Sensing people makes no sense in this show. At this point I just kind of assume they can't unless they say they can. Which makes it weird that Sidious can't tell Ventress is alive when he could definitely sense her.

----------


## Fyraltari

Funny thing: the word "Nightsister" wasn't uttered once in the previous episode.

*Season 3, Epsiode 13: Monster*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Following up from their holo-conversation at the end of the last episode Tyranus pays Mother talzin a visit. He offers to renew "the old alliance" (I guess between Nightsisters and Sith) if the witches would join the CIS. Talzin politely declines and says that she is only helping him because he did her a solid a long time ago and once they're done she doesn't want to see his face evr again. Fair enough. She casually teleports a cup in the room for him to drink (and I thought TROS was the first time people teleported stuff in SW canon) and tell him that some of Darth Maul's line still live on Dathomir. She promises to deliver him an assassin of his caliber to fight against the Jedi and he leaves satisfied. THIS WHOLE MEETING COULD HAVE BEEN AN E-MAIL! Sorry. As Dooku leaves, Talzin tasks Ventress with travelling to the other side of the planet, where the men lives (not really convenient, is it?) and select a warrior with both strength and skill to serve Dooku. But before they deliver their pick to the Sith Lord, they will bewitch him so that he will strike the Count down when ordered.

Ventress drives to the other side of Dathomir on a speeder, because _Star Wars_ laughs at your puny notions of scale, and arrives at the men's village where we can see that the male Dathomirians are all zabraks. The men's leader was warned of her arrival and has gathered the best warriors of each tribe for her to choose, nine in total. among them are the two brothers Feral and Savage Opress (of the edgelord tribe, I assume) who intend to keep a low-profile. Ventress randomly beats up three of them and eliminates them for being too short or too weak (as will soon become apparent the best outcome possible). Of the six remaining she singles out Feral and Savage. Then she tells the six candidates that whoever survives the three tests she has designed will be her champion and servant.

The first test is a simple brawl: all sox of them with various mêlée weapons against her, unarmed. She dominates the entire fight, naturally and even kills two of the contestants with their own weapons. Feral and Savage do a better job than the others, Feral especially but he's still no match for her and when she beat him up, Savage foregoes attacking her to check on him. She deems his protectiveness "pathetic" and socks Savage before insulting the survivors. The second trial takes place at night, in order to fight against the force they must be able to fight what they can't see. In complete darkness the four contestants huddle together while Ventress circles them armed with a flail/scimitar hybrid that she drags on the floor. She kills the remaining two redshirts in surprise attacks but Savage hears her coming the third time and throws Feral to the ground as she passes and then demands that she shows herself. She compliments him and moves on.

The third challenge is another fight: the two of them agaisnt her. However this time no-one has weapons and the ground of the arena sprouts constantly-shifting colummns. feral points out to his brother that according to the rules given at the beginning, only one of them can survive, but Savage says he won't allow it and that their best chance is to work as a team. when they can't keep track of Assajj's position, they climb the columns and jump from one to the other but Feral can't follow and falls to the ground where the Nightsister beats the everloving crap out of him. Savage intervenes and declares that as long as he lives she won't hurt him. Savage and ventress fight for a bit and he begs her to let Feral go and take him. She orders Feral to leave and they fight some more. Savage gives her a run for her money but eventually drops to the ground and, unable to stand up, pledges his life to her, which she accepts.

The next morning Feral wathces his brother leave with Ventress with a sullen look in his (Feral's) eyes. Back at the Nightsister's temple, Mother Talzin feels savage up and approves of Ventress's choice. Then she touches his brow with a bell-like sound and he drops uncounscious. The Nightsisters perform a ritual on him that make him grow taller, bigger, stronger and with larger horns. Another bell-tocuh on his brow and he wakes up... and immediately throttles Assajj. She begs hims to let go to no avail until, at Talzin's suggestion, she does so with calm and authority and then he releases her. Ventress then puts him through his final test: killing Feral. Feral's pleas make him hesitate for a while until Ventress slaps him in the face at which points he calls Feral a meek weakling and snaps his neck with one hand. I'm not sure that makes sense, but whatever. Ventress teaches him to draw his strength from his hatred and to never sympathise with the ennemy. Talzin then teleports in a halberd which she describes as being enchanted with their most potents magics.

Talzin brings Opress to Dooku who is suitably impressed by the sheer size of the man (he's taller than Dooku, besides Chewbacca, I don't think anyone is as big as he is in this franchise). Of course, Tyranus isn't going to just take Talzin at her word when it comes to the skills of his new apprentice so he tasks him with taking a Jedi Temple/Republic Outpost to see how he does in the field. Opress gets there on Dooku's personal ship and just charges through the battlefield, shoving droids aside and mowing clonetroopers down. A Jedi and his padwan are barely anymore trouble (really the master shouldn't have told his pupil to stay back, two against one would have given them better odds). Savage reporsts success to his master (without even stepping inside the temple, mind you) and is recalled to Serenno (where Dooku had his window fixed, by the way). Dooku praises Savage, stating that he will soon be as powerful as Darth Maul before him and the two of them will become mightier than Darth Sidious and go on to rule the galaxy together as father and son. 


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Right, so this episode makes it crustal clear that just because Ventress is fighting Dooku now, doesn't mean she's turned a new leaf. Now that she isn't fighting the war anymore what does she do? brutalize, murder and enslave a bunch of dudes she doesn't know. Now, we know why Dooku doesn't suspect Talzin of being behind the attack against him: they parted on good terms after he helped her a long time ago (presumably back in his Jedi day. Is there any work showing what he was like then? I imagine so, he was Qui-Gon's master after all.) Still wonder why Talzin wants him dead then.

So, this episode introduces the second big retcon of this show: Dath Maul was a Dathomirian and linked to the Nightsisters. I don't really have an opinion on this, I don't really see the point but it doesn't change Maul's character anyway (besides changing the origins of his tattoos to being a Nightbrother thing, rather than a Sith thing). Though I would like some clarification if they are retconning all zabraks/iridonians as Dathomirians. also it does lead to the rather absurd situation of having Ventress and Maul be of the same species when they were clearly not designed so. Apprently all females Dathmorians look like grey humans while all male look like horned humans (with a various number of horns) and tribes separate enough that their skin tones run from Oppress Yellow to Maul Red. Talk about some serious sexual dimorphism!

Feral and Savage are fine as protagonists. Feral is obviously there to show how far Savage was twisted byt the Sisters' magics but I like that they didn't make him utterly useless: while he wasn't as good as Savage, he was clearly the second best so it makes sense that he be in this selection at all. Savage being under mind control is intersting: until it's broken somehow it's going to be hard to tell what actions are truly his own and what are due to Talzin's spell (as we can tell that the sisters' hold over him isn't perfect). As an OC he's one of the characters with most of the room to grow, but we do know that there isn't another Sith in the picture comes ANH so he's a goner for sure. To be honest with you I know he is, because I remember watching a Youtube video called _Darth Sidious vs Darth Maul and Savage Opress_, so...

Speaking of doomed people, Dooku is now actually plotting behind Sidious's back. That's interesting. Obviously it can't go anywhere because of _Revenge of the Sith_ but we might get an insight into the sith side of things: what Tyranus's plans for the future are, what is reliationship to sidious is, this sort of things. I also wonder how he plans on keeping Savage's existence secret from Sidious (as I guess the Master wouldn't appreciate him getting a new apprentice after he had him get rid of the old one) if he's gonna throw Savage at the the Jedi. on the flipside what will be the Jedi's take on Ventress's replacement: did they notice Dooku trying to have her killed? Do they think she died in that ship back there? Also: is Savage going to get a lightsaber? Because that "enchanted blade" is ****: it doesn't even cut through clone armor! Aslo: does Savage have any Force ability? He didn't use the Force once in the trilas, and nobody commented on that. I would think that'd be a very important criterion fro Dooku's new apprentice. EDIT: and if he does, is it native or a result of the witches' ritual?


Next up: *Witches of the Mist*

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## Keltest

I never really liked the "nightsisters do actual magic" stuff. It makes the Jedi and Sith both look like fools for only being able to do simple stuff like telekinesis and jumping. The Sith especially. Theyre supposed to be masters of the Force, and then the nightsisters can use it to literally just create items from nothing and leave enchantments on it and stuff.

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## Fyraltari

> I never really liked the "nightsisters do actual magic" stuff. It makes the Jedi and Sith both look like fools for only being able to do simple stuff like telekinesis and jumping. The Sith especially. Theyre supposed to be masters of the Force, and then the nightsisters can use it to literally just create items from nothing and leave enchantments on it and stuff.


I don't think she's creating items as much as summoning them from another room. Since when are the Siths supposed to be "masters of the Force"?

EDIT: Also the sisters with Assajj couldn't sense Dooku's presence in the room directly below them, and they don't seem to have telekinesis, so there are trade-offs.

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## Keltest

> I don't think she's creating items as much as summoning them from another room. Since when are the Siths supposed to be "masters of the Force"?


As much as the Jedi are at least. And even if she's only teleporting it, that isnt much better. The Jedi could really benefit from teleporting themselves or other things. How many plots have there been where Jedi X loses their lightsaber? 5?

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## Fyraltari

> As much as the Jedi are at least. And even if she's only teleporting it, that isnt much better. The Jedi could really benefit from teleporting themselves or other things. How many plots have there been where Jedi X loses their lightsaber? 5?


Way, more but frankly they just need goddam handstraps. We don't know how the Sister's magic work but a lot of it seems to ritualistic/hermetic in nature, focused on objects like potions or enchantments of dubious quality (that blade seriously). They might just be counterproductive in battle.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> So, this episode introduces the second big retcon of this show: Dath Maul was a Dathomirian and linked to the Nightsisters. I don't really have an opinion on this, I don't really see the point but it doesn't change Maul's character anyway (besides changing the origins of his tattoos to being a Nightbrother thing, rather than a Sith thing). Though I would like some clarification if they are retconning all zabraks/iridonians as Dathomirians. also it does lead to the rather absurd situation of having Ventress and Maul be of the same species when they were clearly not designed so. Apprently all females Dathmorians look like grey humans while all male look like horned humans (with a various number of horns) and tribes separate enough that their skin tones run from Oppress Yellow to Maul Red. Talk about some serious sexual dimorphism!


I've seen attempts at explanations for this, but I just like the idea that there are Zabraks living on different worlds.  We don't blink an eye at Corellians, Alderaanians, etc all being human, so Zabraks being both Iridonians and Dathomirians shouldn't be a big leap.  I also took Nightsister/Nightbrother to be an organization rather than a species, more like the Jedi/Sith/Mandalorians.  But apparently I'm wrong in that as Wookiepedia defines them as "...a subspecies of Zabrak native to the planet Dathomir (that showed) considerable sexual dimorphism".  I think I like my explanation better.

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## Keltest

> Way, more but frankly they just need goddam handstraps. We don't know how the Sister's magic work but a lot of it seems to ritualistic/hermetic in nature, focused on objects like potions or enchantments of dubious quality (that blade seriously). They might just be counterproductive in battle.


I mean, its not like Jedi exclusively become disarmed during fights either.

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## Fyraltari

> I mean, its not like Jedi exclusively become disarmed during fights either.


True.

Then again, "arrogantly believing they know all that is worth knowing" is definitely part of the Jedi's character, at least in the waning years of the Old Republic. I mean any institution whose head librarian would say "if it isn't on the map, then it doesn't exist" has serious issues. Besides I think the Sith have some witchy magic of their own, what with the Sith Sorcery and all that.

Beyond that, I feel like it's better if no-one has a full understanding of the way the Force works and what it can do. It's mysterious and all powerful, it should be ineffable.

The Jedi (and the Sith) approach the force in a very Eastern* zen/taoist/buddhist way, focused on self-improvement and meditation, you gain power as a symptom of enlightenment (or endarkenment, I suppose). If the witches have a more Western*, ritual-driven approach then we have two rather incompatible worldview one focused on the internal and one focused on the external. It makes sense that both are true and both make results but also that you can't really be good at both.

It's like how some people may have affinities for different powers, like Quinlan Vos being one of the few whose good at psychometry. I imagine that if one were to try to master everything the Force can do, they'd end up bad at everything.

*I am wildly stereotyping here and I know it, don't @ me.

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## Peelee

> True.
> 
> Then again, "arrogantly believing they know all that is worth knowing" is definitely part of the Jedi's character, at least in the waning years of the Old Republic.


Literally one person ever acted like this. No other Jedi, in the movies or the cartoons, espoused anything even remotely like that, and they even pointedly deliberated most things for a large chunk of their screentime.

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## Fyraltari

> Literally one person ever acted like this. No other Jedi, in the movies or the cartoons, espoused anything even remotely like that, and they even pointedly deliberated most things for a large chunk of their screentime.


They also wrote-off Qui-Gon's eyewitness account of a Sith Lord until he got killed. Yoda's advice to Anakin's doubts boiled down to "Jedi harder". And they dismissed the notion of Dooku being behind the assassination attempts on Amidala because he's a former Jedi. The Jedi being prideful is very much the characterization the Prequels gave them.

I'm also confused as to why you would think deliberation goes against arrogantly believing the order can't be wrong.

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## Sapphire Guard

Qui Gon is the one that believes he can't be wrong. (It becomes even more explicit in the Master and Apprentice novel). Fyraltari, you can read these two spoilers, I'm just splitting it up for neatness.

*Spoiler: Jedi*
Show

The Jedi on the whole are very conscious that they are not omniscient.

When the Jedi cannot identify Jango's dart, Obi Wan immediately goes to a non Jedi expert  (Dex) for more information.

They don't believe Qui Gon because one eye witness account isn't enough. His evidence amounts to 'he's good with a lightsabre', people like Pre Vizla can do that too, that's not enough. They respond with 'this is concerning, and we will look into it, but we can't assume off the bat that you've uncovered a Sith Lord on that alone.

They have no reason to believe Padme, she just made a random accusation of the leader of her political enemies with no evidence.

Even Jocasta is right  (her star charts were comprehensive, they were sabotaged)




*Spoiler: Nightsisters*
Show



The males having horns of a species isn't unheard of (deer), but it is a bit weird (I believe we've also met female Zabraks with horns before, though? There was one in Aftermath, at least.

The magic is just a different path, it seems to be more indirect (they attack Dooku with lightsabres, not magic. They levelled up buffs and debuffs, and indirect damage, poisons and illusions  (what's the word for that?) rather than being straight paladins.

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## Jasdoif

> THIS WHOLE MEETING COULD HAVE BEEN A E-MAIL!


Maybe he really likes the tea?  He could've seen what happened on Mandalore several episodes back....




> The Jedi being prideful is very much the characterization the Prequels gave them.


I'd say "complacent" instead of "prideful", myself; but there's a lot of overlap there so I'll agree.

To be clear: I think it's more likely that several generations of explicitly recruiting only individuals young enough to not have fully formed emotional attachments that could conflict with loyalty to the Jedi Order, resulted in a Jedi Order (all the way from initiates to the High Council) ill-equipped to consider what doesn't fit their expectations; than that the Jedi High Council believed their decisions were correct solely because they were the ones making the decisions.




> I believe we've also met female Zabraks with horns before, though?


Yes, Sugi appears in the series a few times.

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## Keltest

The dathomiri are nominally zabrak/human hybrids of some kind, with the males closely resembling zabraks while the females look closer to human while still being visibly different

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## Mechalich

> The dathomiri are nominally zabrak/human hybrids of some kind, with the males closely resembling zabraks while the females look closer to human while still being visibly different


The way the Dathomirian species works is one of the handful of factoids that isn't the same depending on which version of canon you're using. In Legends Dathomirians are a unique species formed by hybridization between humans and Zabraks with significant sexual dimorphism. In the Disney canon they're a Zabrak subspecies. 

This is needlessly complicated and very annoying of course.

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## Peelee

> This is needlessly complicated and very annoying of course.


In _my_ Star Wars? Perish the thought! :Small Tongue:

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## Fyraltari

Well, that didn't last long...

*Season 3, Episode 14: Witches of the Mist*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

So that outpost that the Separatists absolutely *had* to take? Well they apprently didn't put much effort into keeping it since clones are now returning the corpses of the two Jedi there to the Temple. Loking over the bodies they conclude that only someone like Ventress could have done that but she was presumed dead after the battle two episodes ago. Plo Koon suggests a new Sith Lord but Kenobi thinks the cumprit isn't a Sith as much as a reckless impulsive animal. Kay. Later, Windu and Yoda show Obi-Wan some surveillance footage of Savage at work. Obi-Wan initially mistakes him for darth Maul but Yoda corrects him: he's a creature of the same species, from Dathomir. Kenobi is confused: wasn't Maul from Iridonia? Windu explains that Maul was raised on Dathomir and Iridonia is the place where the rest of the males of the species are. So Iridonia isn't a planet but the name of the village, then? Yoda tasks Kenobi with going to Dathomir and investigating this new ennemy.

Meanwhile Dooku is training his new apprentice in the use of his brand-new double lightsaber. He utterly dominates Opress and call him sloppy and lacking technique. Didn't expect much positive reinforcement from a Sith. He does say that the zabrak has potential, though. He then demonstrates the power of the Force by lifting several stone columns in his courtyard. Savage struggles to do the same and after lifting only two much less high he says it's impossible. Tyranus replies it's only impossible because Opress deemed it so. The whole thing is reminiscent of yoda's training of Luke in ESB. To mativates his apprentice, Tyranus starts shooting lightning bolts at him. He tells him to focus on his power and anger and Savage manages to raise the two pillars as high as Dooku did while he's being continuously zapped. He then asks how he could defend himself against this attack: "A wise Master doesn't reveal all his secrets at once." With the beginning of Savage's training done, Tyranus gives him another mission: go to Toydaria and capture King Katuunko alive. Opress leaves in Dooku's solar barge. (It lifts off before he's had any time to sit down, which I find much funnier than I should.)

Kenobi and Skywalker arrive at the men's village but despite their peaceful intentions, the village leader orders the warriors to attack. The two Jedi fight back but take care not to harm them (would probably be easier if you hadn't turned your lightsabers on). Anakin spots the leader and teakes him hostage. He does it very weirdly though: instead of pressing his saber to the man's throat like everybody does, he grabs the throat with his arm and then presses the saber near it which makes it so that he'd have to cut through his own arm to kill the man. Obi-Wan asks about Savage and the leader tells him to go to Mother Talzin since what one of her women took him as a mate. Is that what he thinks that was about? I hope things don't get that intense everytime a Nightsister feels horny (pun intended). As the Jedi leave, Obi-Wan explains to Anakin who the Nightsisters are and he's just thrilled about it (he's not.)

Whe they arrive, Kenobi says he doesn't know what to expect, but he's not betting on a wrm welcome. Anakin says that it might go well, he's popular with the ladies. Too popular says Kenobi. Anakin is really bad at this secret lover thing. They immediately get captured by laserbow-weielding Nightsisters and their sabers are taken away. this end up not mattering at all. they are brought before Talzin who somehow knows who Kenobi is. Talzin claims not having any control over the Dathomiri males but Kenobi doesn't buy it and Skywalker starts getting aggressive. Talzin uses a crystal ball and gives the Jedi Opress's name and destination. They leave without further questions. Talzin tells Ventress that she must put her plan into actions. Ventress thinks Savage needs more training but Talzin tells her there's no time and she's just going to have to help him.

On Toydaria, Savage bulldozers his way through the palace, slaughtering the guards until he gets to the king ho tries to defend himself with a knife with all the success you'd expect. The Jedi get there just in time to stop Savage from leaving with his quarry. The king tries to use the distraction to flee but Opress breaks his neck with the force while fighting the other two. Savage manages to collapse a flying platform on top of the Jedi and runs away with the king's corpse. Before leaving he throws the Jedi's ship into a deep hole. Anakin and Obi-wan aren't squished because of course, they aren't and they borrow a ship from the Toydarians.

The assassin boards a Separatist dreadnought who apprently was just casually orbiting the ennemy planet the whole time. Did nobody notice? he throws the king's lifeless body at Dooku's feet. Since he said he wanted him alive, Dooku flies into a rage and starts frying Opress. Savage begs for forgiveness "That is not the way of the Dark Side." Ventress comes in and mocks Tyranus's treatment of his apprentices. Dooku tells Savage that he can redeem his failure by killing her. Ventress laughs and does the beel-sound touch to Savage telling him to remember his true loyalties. They fight. It's a very red fight: there are five blades here and they are all red, this is why the the dark Side need more colours. Would a violet or orange blade once in a while really hurt? In pure lightsaber combat Dooku can't fight the two at once so he just starts zapping Savage repeatedly while holding Assajj at bay. At one point he even does it without his lightsaber. Ventress starts blaming Opress for their failure to kill the Count. He immediately chimes in with "A failed Apprentice makes for a foolish Master." Damn, Dooku just keeps getting badass lines this episode. eventually savage just gets tired of both of their craps and attack them both, making the fight completemy chaotic. Tyranus decides that's that and fless through a hatch, followed by Ventress.

MEanwhile Anakin and Obi-Wan get to the dreadnought, under the impression that Dooku had orders savage to kill the king, They board without any real difficulty (I guess Ventress tooka care of that when _she_ came aboard). They make their way into Dooku's cabin just in time to stop Opress from following his former Masters. there's a call-back to the fight at the end of AotC with Anakin agreeing to "take him together" this time. Look, he can learn! Ventress catches up with Tyranus who plainly tells her that she's no match for him. He's entirely right and she ends up fleeing the ship in an escape pod. dooku then radios the droids aboard to kill the traitor Savage Opress. speaking of, his fight with Obi-Wan and Anakin has tken thm back to the hangar where they left their respective ships. One of the Jedi (Anakin I guess) has managed to cut one his horn off-screen (probably a deleted scene). That must hurt like hell. All the droids present attack Opress, which the Jedi notes. Unable to parry all the shots, Savage telekinetically throws everyone to the ground and escapes in Dooku's solar barge. The Jedi decide they're done for the day (they don't know Dooku is aboard, I guess) and leave.

Savage, beaten and bruised makes his way to Talzin Temple where he claims to her that Ventress betrayed him and and the Jedi are after him. he doesn't know what to do and he's not strong enought to fight everybody. Talzin reassures him that he will become stronger because there is someone who can teach him: he has another brother who is till alive (apprently Feral and him were believed to be last survivors of the family), and Talzin's crystal ball shows the face of Darth Maul. Maul lives in exile in the Outer Rim, so she gives him a magical talisman (of course, of course) to points towards him. savage leaves and promises to return while the episode closes with a shot of Maul's very happy face.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

I think I might get whiplash from how fast this arc has moved the plot after three season of meandering. Boom! Dooku got rid of Ventress! Boom! Ventress joined a new faction! Boom! Dooku has a new apprentice who's actually a plant for the Nightsitsers! Boom! Savage betrays Dooku! Boom! Maul is alive! Boom! Boom! Boom! I mean Asajj met Grievous once and savage never did, the Jedi barely got time to register that he existed that he already switched sides. They've got to be so confused by this whole affair. I think this would have been better if Ventress had been betrayed at like, the end of season 2 and Opress had spent most of season 3 in Dooku's service.

Well, it was a pretty good episode still. I really appreciated the insight we've got into the Sith training regimen and I certainly can't say that it moved too slow. I'm not sure how free Savage is from the witches' control: did he return to Talzin because of it or because it's the only place he knows (besides the village). I guess we'll see about that when he gets to Maul especially if the subject of Feral comes up. Also why did they make Feral and savage lemon yellow if they are Maul's brothers? He's crimson red! I get that skin colour can vary drastically in a family
*Spoiler: Like these twins*
Show


 but two out of three make me wonder if Maul's a half-brother or something. Also who killed their family? The Nightsisters? The Sith? I guess that could explain Talzin being angry at Dooku.

Speaking of Talzin, she's really starting to come across as more of a plot device than a character: she's always got the right magic item (except that crappy halberd) and is supportive of Savage and Ventress's goals even though it's unclear what she gets out of it and the two are at cross purposes. And really if she wanted Savage to fullfill his "important destiny" alongside Maul, why wait all this time and why send him to Ventress?

With all that said, this arc is definetely the best of the season so far.


Next up: *Overlords*
I don't really know when I'll do this one, folks. Tomorrow is my first day of work and according to Jasdoif's little summary this is the beginning of the Mortis arc. If what I've heard about Mortis is true, I'm not exactly in a hurry to get to it.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Next up: *Overlords*
> I don't really know when I'll do this one, folks. Tomorrow is my first day of work and according to Jasdoif's little summary this is the beginning of the Mortis arc. If what I've heard about Mortis is true, I'm not exactly in a hurry to get to it.


It is.

It's still _watchable_, though, even though I personally feel it's better suited for analysis than for entertainment.  It has a few interesting bits of characterization, amidst a particularly grotesque backdrop; so I kind of wonder if this was originally an idea for a single episode, that was distorted into an arc with a mandated theme*.

**Spoiler*
Show

This Dave Filoni interview talks a lot about season 5, but this particular bit (in Part 1) is more general:




> George really got on a bend of having an episode about the droids, an episode about the Jedi, an episode about politics. And when I say episode, I mean arc. And he kind of liked to hit those different themes every season. Because of the number of stories we tell  we actually do 26 a season, we write more than we actually air  thats why some ideas, you dont see.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 3, Episode 15: Overlords*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

the Jedi have received a message contening a 2, 000 year-old distress code from far beyond the Outer Rim in the Krilithian System. Kenobi, Skywalker and Tano are sent to investigate. They're supposed to meet with Rex and a cruiser at the source of the message but while they're both there neither can see the other. Then all the power in the Jedi ship goes down "even the life support". Guess there's natural gravity in space now. When it comes back, they are confronted by a Xelnaga artifact giant D8 that swallows their ship whole. When they wake up their shuttle has landed on an organic mass big enought to have an atmosphere and gravity of its own (pay no attention to the floating rocks). Obi-Wan can't even tell if they are still in the GFFA. Not sure how he could have, but okay. "The ship seems fine but for whatever reason nothing's working." Then it doesn't seem fine, does it, Ani?

They are then accosted by a glowing woman (that only Anakin can hear at first) called Daughter asking if Skywalker is The One. This confuses Skywalker, and she refuses to answer their question only saying that she will bring them to Him, and that they must have shelter by nightfall. As they walk alongside a cliff, Kenobi notes that "the season seem to change by the time of day" whatever that means. Also there are no animals around and all f=three of the Jedi sense the force very strongly since they arrived. Daughter says she's taking them to see the Father and says that "we are the ones who guard the Power. The Middle the Beginning and the End."

A rock falls on them almost killing Daughter and separating her and Skywalker from the other two. She's pissed that Anakin touched her, says that the rock falling was her brother's work and tell him to wait for her here as he's in great danger. What's stopping Brother dear from throwing another rock, exactly? Kenobi radios Anakin who tells him to go back to the ship to try sending another distress signal while he follows her; Obi-wan wants him to wait for them to find another way 'round (just levitate the damn rock since the Force is so strong in this place). Anakins hangs up on him and a storm starts brewing so they go to the ship.

Which has gone missing. As the night falls, all the plant die and a man, Son, shows up.he's angry at them because his sister said to wait. Obi-Wan politely asks for their ship back which Son refuses to give yet and then asks if Anakin truly is the chosen One. The Jedi light their lightsabers (when did Ahsoka get a second, yellow, one?). He just says that what's about to happen will wether they like it or not and switch off their sabers. Kenobi calls him a Sith and he answers yes and also no, tells them to find shelter from the storm, turns into a bat-demon and flies off.

Anakin spots a glowing monastery in the distance and concludes that's where the main quest is so he gets there. He comes across an old man meditating on a throne. The man welcomes Anakin and says that he wants to learn the truth about who Skywalker really is. Anakin has had enough of riddles but has to admit the other has a point when he says it's really late, he has nowhere else to go so he should accept his hospitality. Meanwhile Obi-Wan and Ahsoka are camping in a cave, the togruta fallen asleep, when who else but Qui-Gon Jin's ghost shows up asking his apprentice if he did train Anakin. Kenobi asks where they are exactly and Qui-Gon says this place is a conduit through which the entire Force of the Universe flows, a magnet and an amplifier. He also says that there are three seeking Skywalker thinking, like him, that he is the Chosen One. Obi-wan says he thinks he is too, because the force is stronger within him than any known Jedi, but Anakin is still wilfull and unbalanced. Qui Gon says that if Anakin is really the One he will discover it there and if not then he's in grave danger here. And then he blinks out of existence.

Anakin is sleeping in his bed and you can tell he's slipping away from the teachings of the Jedi because he accorded himself the luxury of a bedsheet! Even Dooku didn't go that far! And he's woken up by... Shmi Skywalker! Dun, dun dun! (Seriously, my reaction when Liam Neeson showed up was "Who's next, Anakin's mom?" Imagine my surprise.) He calls sorcery since she's dead, but she says that nothing ever really dies. She has a secret to tell him: everything he's ever done has lead him here. Also she doesn't want him to blame him for her death and wants to take his pain away. He says he failed as a Jedi and failed her by killing the tuskens. She says his guilt deosn't define him, it's the other way around. Anakin says the only love he knows is "haunted by the kiss she should never have given himm what would happen if [he] let go". Shmi calls that a prison and gets angry at the notion that he has a wife and says his place is in this place. Then she reveals her semf as the son in disguise and blips out.

Time for Ahsoka's dream quest of Unknown Kadath of her future/potential self. Old Ahsoka is worried wether Anakin treats her well and wether current-Ahsoka recognizes the seeds of darkness he's planted in her. Older Ahsoka says that both Skywalker and her are full of contradictions and that she may never see her future if she remains his student. Also she should leave this planet. Then she merges with the campfiere and disappears. Kenobi wakes Ahsoka up who says she thinks Anakin is in trouble. I mean, I wouldn't trust him to go get the groceries without running into trouble, somehow.

Indeed, Anakin concluded that the Father is a Sith Lord (like Master, like apprentice, I guess) and holds him at saberpoint. Father calls him an idiot and says he's much more than Sith or Jedi. And Anakin is too. Then he grabs Anakin's balde, switches his saber off and identifies himself (and his children) as "Force Wielders" (I thought that was anybody with Force powers?). When Anankin tells him what happens he guesses "Shmi" was his son and admits that their appearances aren't their true forms, just reflections of those around them. He says that his children's talent to manipulate the Force made it necessary to retire from the temporal world and live in this place as anchorites like in a sanctuary or a prison, because they could tear the fabric of the universe and he's very sad about it. He says in this place he can control his children: "a family in Balance : Ligth and Dark, day with night, destruction replaced by creation. Too much Light or Dark would be the undoing of life as you understand it." Pay no attention to the kinslaying attempts. He explains that he wanted to see if the Chosen One had really come. Anakin doesn't believe in that myth, but Father offers him to pass one test to find out and then he can do whatever he wants.

With the dawn, all the plants turn back to life. Kenobi and Tano have left their cave and he tells her that Anakin won't be easy to deceive. Wink, to the audience harder Filoni, someone didn't get it. Then they get snatched up by Daughter and Son disguised as dragons. They bring them to a courtyard in the monastery where Father and Anakin were waiting. Father says he's ordered his children to kill Anakin's friends. He then asks him to chose one to save. That's supposed to relieve him of his guilt. Kenobi, being Kenobi, tells him to save Ahsoka. Then he tells him that "the Planet is the Force" and to use it. Anakin then levitates both Children, making the ground glow, his voice reverberate and the sky shift from day to night. They both drop their captive and he slams them against a wall. They ty to attack again, and he stops them and forces them to kneel and take back human form as the sky turns back to day.

Father says that only the Chosen One could tame both his children and dismisses everybody except Anakin. he tells Anakin that he's dying and Skywalker must replace him. Anakin refuses. Father insists that that's what's been foretold. Anakin refuses again. Father says he can't force him but if he leaves his selfishness will haunt him and the galaxy. They leave.


*Spoiler:  My thoughts*
Show

Urgh. At least this episode is pretty to look at.
I never liked the whole Prophecy business and this is not helping. Turns out The chosen One isn't some kind of holy teacher or slayer of evil but a glorified babysitter. This just keeps getting better doesn't it? Also the Dark and Light Side of the Force aren't metaphors, Jedi concepts or reflexions on human nature they're two physical persons who need to get told. How and the Balance isn't the opposite of the Dark Side, a state of harmony with the entirety of the cosmos or anything like that. Nope the balance is the Dark Side and the Light Side being watched over by a crotchety old man. Cause you need a bit of evil in your life because else the Oreos would just be the white stuff, or something. Oh and the Force is already in Balance, apparently, and has been for thousands years. Because prophecy aren't about the world becoming better (or worse) they're about the world staying exactly the way it is. Never question the statu quo, kids! Uuuuurgh. Hey Lucas, Filoni, Lee and Taylor: having your characters talk in riddle don't make your simple philosophical concepts any deeper or more meaningful. Making cryptic statements when the answers are really straightforwards just make your characters feel insufferable. Likewise there are a lot of things that feel like they ought to be symbolic but are only there to be cool: Rex and the Jedi not seeing each other, the giant double-pyramid, the planet being organic, the lack of fauna, the floating rocks, the plants dying and being reborn, the season shifting. Maybe there'll be a point to them in the next to episodes, but I doubt it.

This last bit isn't helped by the obvious need to pad the run time so instead of Father landing their ship to the monastery and talking to Anakin like any normal person would we get, whatever they were doing. Daughter went to fetch them and then decided to leave for no reason. Son tried to kill Daughter/Anakin and then just gave up I guess. Then he's a prick to Kenobi and Tano and goes around to give Anakin better counseling than the Jedi Order ever gave him (which is sad really). Father first refuses to answer Anakin's questions then agree because reasons. And this stupid test. Why make Anakin believe he has to choose between saving one or the other? What does this has to do with his guilt over Shmi's death? Why di d he think Anakin would want to help him after that. And really, being the Chosen One is really just about being psychically strong enough to beat those two? Loving Father, that one. What was his plan if the Chosen One hadn't shown up with two companions? This felt so tackled on, like it was obligatory there'd be a scene where the hero is force to choose one of his friends but comes up with a third otpion instead, but it has nothing to do with the story in or out of universe and the third option is violence. 

Anakin is confused at being asked if he's The One. Did they never tell him? I had heard people claim that th estory of the Prequels was (alledgedly) that Anakin couldn't handle the stress coming with the expectations that go along with being the chosen One. Also that's more a TPM complaint, but what are the signs that point to Anakin being The One rather than a more-gifted-than-usual Jedi? Does the Ancient Prophecy sates that The One will be known from having a midi-chlorian count of 1, 987 mol.L-1? Also who made that Prophecy? Still, nice of Neeson to cameo. Ahsoka's visions is blatantly there to tell the audience there's a timeline where she doesn't do like the tiniest Jedi. I have no issue with that, it most certainly was a concern within the fandom at the time.

I'm not a fan of the "can we pretend this never happened" attitude but, like, as a fandom, can we pretend this never happened? Please? At least TPM only claimed the Midi-chlorians were a go-between the Force and the mere mortals. Unnecessary, yes, but ultimately harmless. This, however, while it doesn't state that these Three idiots created the Force, does say that they created the Sides which is almost as bad.

At least this episode is pretty to look at.

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## Sapphire Guard

Ghost Qui Gon is kinda a ****.

Shows up to Obi, his apprentice of many years and all he asks is 'so, how's Anakin?'

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## dancrilis

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> I'm not a fan of the "can we pretend this never happened" attitude but, like, as a fandom, can we pretend this never happened? Please? At least TPM only claimed the Midi-chlorians were a go-between the Force and the mere mortals. Unnecessary, yes, but ultimately harmless. This, however, while it doesn't state that these Three idiots created the Force, does say that they created the Sides which is almost as bad.


So we seem to be in agreement.




> Personally I don't think it is bad in terms of 'can I watch this without hating every second of it' it is more bad in terms of 'what? why? what? ... no just no - I am going to ignore this unless I want to annoy someone on the internet by using it as a reference'.
> 
> It effectively messes with things that didn't need to be messed with should be left alone.

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## Fyraltari

> Ghost Qui Gon is kinda a ****.
> 
> Shows up to Obi, his apprentice of many years and all he asks is 'so, how's Anakin?'


Beats "Hmm, looks like you're dying of cold in this storm. Hey, go to Dagobah! Bye!"

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## Kornaki

> Beats "Hmm, looks like you're dying of cold in this storm. Hey, go to Dagobah! Bye!"


Well yeah, it's cold. Did you expect him to stick around and chit chat?

I agree this storyline makes us the darkest timeline.

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## Peelee

> Also that's more a TPM complaint, but what are the signs that point to Anakin being The One rather than a more-gifted-than-usual Jedi? Does the Ancient Prophecy sates that The One will be known from having a midi-chlorian count of 1, 987 mol.L-1?


He was a "vergence in the Force", and was the product of an asexual pregnancy and birth. Because why the hell not, Anakin _must_ be the most super duper special person in the universe, Lucas sayeth!



> Also who made that Prophecy?


Unknown. Also unknown exactly what the prophecy says, or when it was made or literally anything about it other than that it apparently exists even though nobody ever said a word about it in the first three movies.

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## Fyraltari

> He was a "vergence in the Force", and was the product of an asexual pregnancy and birth.


I give you the first one (whatever it means) but they have no evidence of the second one besides Shmi's word. And even then "he has no father" could have meant "I don't wanna talk about his genitor." Hell even Qui-Gon only says it's "possible".



> Because why the hell not, Anakin _must_ be the most super duper special person in the universe, Lucas sayeth!


Why can't protagonist just be good at what they do? Why does vader needed to be space-Merlin or the Doctor be the origin of their species? Why, why, why?




> Unknown. Also unknown exactly what the prophecy says, or when it was made or literally anything about it other than that it apparently exists even though nobody ever said a word about it in the first three movies.


Technically, we can infer that it says "a Chosen One conceived by Midi-Chlorians will bring Balance to the Force." And that it was wrong apparently. Unless this is a Nerevarine* situation and you're retroactively the Chosen One once you've done the thing. Bunch of cheats.


*From _the Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind_.

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## Kornaki

> Technically, we can infer that it says "a Chosen One conceived by Midi-Chlorians will bring Balance to the Force." And that it was wrong apparently. Unless this is a Nerevarine* situation and you're retroactively the Chosen One once you've done the thing. Bunch of cheats.


Why do you say anakin failed? He killed all the jedi and all the sith, seems pretty balanced to me. I never really understood why the dominant force using community in the galaxy wanted to bring balance anyway.

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## Fyraltari

> Why do you say anakin failed? He killed all the jedi and all the sith, seems pretty balanced to me. I never really understood why the dominant force using community in the galaxy wanted to bring balance anyway.


The Force isn't the Jedi and the Sith. That'd be like saying that killing all member of religion] would kill their god.

The Jedi are strongly inspired by various East-Asian faiths who believe the path to salvation/enlightenment/ataraxia is by being in harmony with the cosmos, to be "one" with it. That's the balance the Jedi are seeking on a personnal level. The Blanace isn't between the Jedi or the Sith or even between Light and Dark Side of the Force, the Light *is* the Balance while the Dark *is* the Balance. To bring Balance not to oneself but to the Force itself, woud be the complete eradication of the Dark Side itself. It'd be bringing the entire cosmos into harmony, eradicating all suffering, want, violence and hatred. Since killing Darth Sidious didn't magically turn the galaxy into a utopia of perfect niceness, I feel confidet saying that Anakin failed to bring Balance to the Force.

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## Mechalich

> The Force isn't the Jedi and the Sith. That'd be like saying that killing all member of religion] would kill their god.
> 
> The Jedi are strongly inspired by various East-Asian faiths who believe the path to salvation/enlightenment/ataraxia is by being in harmony with the cosmos, to be "one" with it. That's the balance the Jedi are seeking on a personnal level. The Blanace isn't between the Jedi or the Sith or even between Light and Dark Side of the Force, the Light *is* the Balance while the Dark *is* the Balance. To bring Balance not to oneself but to the Force itself, woud be the complete eradication of the Dark Side itself. It'd be bringing the entire cosmos into harmony, eradicating all suffering, want, violence and hatred. Since killing Darth Sidious didn't magically turn the galaxy into a utopia of perfect niceness, I feel confidet saying that Anakin failed to bring Balance to the Force.


It's plausible to imagine a scenario where Palpatine and Vader's deaths at Endor sever the Sith lineage and the galaxy becomes not perfect but an awful lot more harmonious over time. There'd definitely be some cleaning up to do for a decade or two, but things certainly got better.

For example, if you say that the Force has 10 points total, and rank them dark vs. light, then the PT might be the even point, 5 Light/5 Dark. The Founding of the Empire crashes it down to 1 Light/9 Dark. The death of Palpatine spikes the Light side and puts it on a trajectory to the opposite end, Light 9/Dark 1, though it might take decades or even centuries for the state of the secular galaxy to match that of the Force. 

Now, no one could leave well enough alone. The Legends timeline allows both champions of the dark to re-emerge regularly and has the champions of the light stumble mightily, before finally just giving up and letting anti-Force aliens invade the galaxy en masse (an event that out-scales the original films entirely). The Disney timeline hits the reset button instead, setting everything back to that 5/5 unstable equilibrium for TFA.




> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I'm not a fan of the "can we pretend this never happened" attitude but, like, as a fandom, can we pretend this never happened? Please? At least TPM only claimed the Midi-chlorians were a go-between the Force and the mere mortals. Unnecessary, yes, but ultimately harmless. This, however, while it doesn't state that these Three idiots created the Force, does say that they created the Sides which is almost as bad.


Personally I'm a fan of the 'this is all a metaphor' approach.

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## Peelee

> Why do you say anakin failed? He killed all the jedi and all the sith, seems pretty balanced to me.


Not what that means. If half your body is healthy cells and half your body is cancerous cells, your body is not balanced. Canonically "bring balance to the force" means "destroy the Sith". Of course, since the Jedi believes they were already destroyed, the Sith must at some point rise again is the prophecy is to come true. And, after Anakin canonically brought balance to the Force by destroying Palpatine and killing himself, the Sith returned again anyway in the sequel trilogy.

Its turtles bad writing all the way down. They should wipe everything except the OT and redo it all. Except with actual talented writers this time.

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## dancrilis

> Also who made that Prophecy?


Jedi Mystics apparently (see source below).




> Not what that means.


I have heard that before it is apparent debatable, source.



> Some people thought that the light side of the Force and the dark side of the Force had to be equal to each other in order to create balance, while others believed that the light could be the Force in its natural state, making the dark side the cause of imbalance.

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## Fyraltari

> So we seem to be in agreement.


Looks like,yes.



> Well yeah, it's cold. Did you expect him to stick around and chit chat?


No but maybe he didn't have to wait for a life or death situation to pop up and say that. Then again an argument could be made that he saved Luke's life there, if Luke calling out "Ben!" is what made Han find him.



> For example, if you say that the Force has 10 points total, and rank them dark vs. light, then the PT might be the even point, 5 Light/5 Dark. The Founding of the Empire crashes it down to 1 Light/9 Dark. The death of Palpatine spikes the Light side and puts it on a trajectory to the opposite end, Light 9/Dark 1, though it might take decades or even centuries for the state of the secular galaxy to match that of the Force.


I don't understand how your point system works.





> Personally I'm a fan of the 'this is all a metaphor' approach.


What is a metaphor for what?



> Jedi Mystics apparently (see source below).


Well, that narrows it down. We've eliminated all the Jedi materialists who don't believe in all that "Force" nonsense.  :Small Tongue: 






> I have heard that before it is apparent debatable, source.


Which would make some kind of sense if the Dark Side wasn't constantly making people super-evil regardless of their original intentions. "The universe needs to be at equilibrium between heroism and child-murder" isn't really great as far as philosophical statements go.

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## Mechalich

> I don't understand how your point system works.


The Force is an energy field. It's constantly in flux. At any given time some portion of the waveform will be affiliated with the light, and some portion with the dark. Balance in terms of proportionality would imply 50/50. Balance in terms of stability, of what is the state where the system is the most stable, would be one that's entirely light or entirely dark. Now a complete light or complete dark system isn't possible (well, it might be in theory, but it would mean the end of the universe so it's not a viable option anyway), so the best that can be hoped for is nearly total dominance by the light side. A 50/50 mix in proportionality is actually the least stable scenario and leaders to gigantic, horrible conflict. 

The second point is that because the Force influences the galaxy, shifts in the proportional representation of the Force are a leading indicator. Galactic events lag changes in the Force. The Jedi sense that the Force is growing dark well before the Clone Wars breaks out. The dark side triumphs during Revenge of the Sith, but life in the galaxy doesn't get measurably worse for almost a decade, and the Empire is still consolidating power during ANH. 

At the conclusion of Return of the Jedi then, the Force moves back into balance - the waveform of the field shifts to being almost completely light dominated, but it takes the galaxy a decade or two to shift back. We would expect a transition to happy peace time to finish up around 15-20 ABY. In Legends, that's what happened (the Hand of Thrawn Duology takes place in 19 ABY). In the Disney canon not so much. 




> What is a metaphor for what?


The entire Mortis arc can be interpreted as a vision quest, it's all in Anakin's head. The whole thing is a visual representation of his bonds, struggles, and internal conflict. The Ones are manifestations of different aspects of the Force in a form his conscious mind can comprehend (Yoda, in a similar scenario later in the series, encounters an alternative set of manifestations).

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## Fyraltari

> The Force is an energy field. It's constantly in flux. At any given time some portion of the waveform will be affiliated with the light, and some portion with the dark. Balance in terms of proportionality would imply 50/50. Balance in terms of stability, of what is the state where the system is the most stable, would be one that's entirely light or entirely dark. Now a complete light or complete dark system isn't possible (well, it might be in theory, but it would mean the end of the universe so it's not a viable option anyway), so the best that can be hoped for is nearly total dominance by the light side. A 50/50 mix in proportionality is actually the least stable scenario and leaders to gigantic, horrible conflict. 
> 
> The second point is that because the Force influences the galaxy, shifts in the proportional representation of the Force are a leading indicator. Galactic events lag changes in the Force. The Jedi sense that the Force is growing dark well before the Clone Wars breaks out. The dark side triumphs during Revenge of the Sith, but life in the galaxy doesn't get measurably worse for almost a decade, and the Empire is still consolidating power during ANH. 
> 
> At the conclusion of Return of the Jedi then, the Force moves back into balance - the waveform of the field shifts to being almost completely light dominated, but it takes the galaxy a decade or two to shift back. We would expect a transition to happy peace time to finish up around 15-20 ABY. In Legends, that's what happened (the Hand of Thrawn Duology takes place in 19 ABY). In the Disney canon not so much.


I don't really like this headcanon. Too dualistic for me, I like the idea that Dark/Light Side is a Jedi concept and other traditions have other ideas about the Force that are no less wrong.






> The entire Mortis arc can be interpreted as a vision quest, it's all in Anakin's head. The whole thing is a visual representation of his bonds, struggles, and internal conflict. The Ones are manifestations of different aspects of the Force in a form his conscious mind can comprehend (Yoda, in a similar scenario later in the series, encounters an alternative set of manifestations).


Not a fan of the "it was all a dream" ending, I gotta say.

*Season 3, Episode 16: Altar of Mortis*
 You know, it's kinda weird that this show has a habit of giving names in the opening narration of the second part of arcs, like "the Nightsisters" or "Mortis". Speaking of, what kind of a name for a planet is Mortis? It's Latin for "of Death" why have the embodiments of the Force hang out on the Planet of Death? that's weirdly ominous. Anyway,

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The narration says the daughet aligns with the Light Side, while the Son drifts ever closer to the Dark Side. So they're just stupidly powerful Force-wielders, then? Not embodiments of the Sides?
We get back to our three Jedi as they leave and Anakin decided to have a nap, not using a badsheet this time, probably so that Obi-Wan doesn't discover the extant of his corruption. He dreams of a voice calling to him (sounds like Qui-Gon, but Neeson isn't credited?), then the Son comes (disguised as a second Anakin for all of three econds for reasons no doubt beyond mortal ken) and offers him to join him and together they shall rule the Galaxy as father and son change the balance of the universe. Anakin says he'll never join the Dark Side willingly*. The Son says the Light and dark Side can't exist without each other and that the two of them can restore balance wherever they go. And destroy the Sith too. And the Jedi. And your little dog too!

Anakin wakes up aaand the son has teleported inside the ship, grabbed Ahsoka and jumps out of the ship with her saying that Anakin won't leave so soon. Anakin takes the wheel and pursues the Son (whot turned into his dragon form again). After chasing him through mist they nearly collide with a giant tower and crash on the ground. You know, I'm really starting to doubt that Anakin is "the greatest space-pilot in the galaxy." "I didn't think you saw it. -It was a _giant tower_! Of course, I saw it!" Okay, you get one point, episode. Since the tower is the only building in the vicinity, it's pretty obvious where the Son took Ahsoka. Anakin, naturally, wants to rush h eadfirst into danger. Obi-Wan points out that they don't really understand what they're dealing with, that the Dark Side is very powerful in this area and that conflict in this place could have "dire repercussion for the universe at large" (so the Family are embodiments of the force?) so they should really go ask the Father's advice. Skywalker doesn't listen.

ahsoka is chained up inside the tower. A goblin-like creature shows up, frees her and tell her that she's been left behind and should forget her master. Then he bites her, revelas himself as the Son and claims that she is his now as her skin becomes grayer and full of cracks. Obi-Wan apprently twiddled his thumbs for a while and starts wondering how exactly he's going to find the Father. Then he turns around and the Monastery is right there. Convenient. Feels like you could have done that last episode, eh, Father? Up inside, Father and Son are having a talk, the Father accuses the Son of having become vain and chossing the Dark Side (so they're not embodiments of the Force?). The Father threatens to "contain" his Son if he doesnt stop it (what even more than you already are?). The Son then says that he's tired of waiting for his dad's death, throws red ligthning at him nd catapults him down the entry stairs. just as Obi-Wan arrives.

The Daughter takes her dad to his room and decretes he needs some rest. Obi-Wan explains the situation. She doesn't believe that the Son tried to kill their father "he would never do such a thing." Then Kenobi says he's seen him. "It's not his fault. My nature is to do what is selfless, but my brother's will always be to do what is selfish." Make up your mind, Lady! (so they *are* embodiments of the Force?) Obi-Wan wants her to help Anakin stop the Son before he rampages through the Galaxy, she doesn't want to but decides to take him to the titular Altar deep in a cave. She can't reach it but OBi-Wan could, on the altar is a blade that can control the Son. well it's just a handle but when you grip it a metallic balde forms. (Oh, gods is that supposed to be the in-universe inspiration for the lightsabers?)

Anakin managed to climb the tower up to some garden where Ahsoka is waiting for him. Tano asks if he's proud of her. Then she says he should join the Son. Then she starts ranting about how he doesn't trust her. Finally she says that if he doesn't join the Son she'll die. Then she attacks him. The Son is watching from inside and is joined by his sister and Kenobi. She asks him if he attacked their Father. "He is just so selfish and... and was taking to long to die." I odn't know exactly why but I love that delivery. It's like he went from Evil Overlord to little boy and back in the span of three seconds but still being horrible during it. the daughter says she won't let him leave. He points out that she's not strong enough to stop him and that the Chosen One already has his plate full at the moment. Anakin and Ahsoka are still fighting and she gets angry when he calls her "Snips" saying she hates it when he does that. You should just call him "Skyguy" to even the score. Though to be frank, they seldom call each other that really, I kinda forgot that was her nickname, even. Also you can tell she's not herself because she's wielding her lightsaber in a non-reversed grip. When Obi-Wan shows up, she ignites her scond lightsaber (seriously _where_ did she get that?)

The Daughter realizes that the Son is feeding on the conflict and tries to stop the Jedi, but the Son attacks her. Caster fight! That wakes the Father up. Meanwhile Obi-Wan suggests they free Ahsoka by using the altar blade since it can kill the Son. Not what the Daughter said, but okay. the Fight between the siblings evolved into a dragon fight (though, the Daughter is actually more of a griffon, really). It's about matched until Daddy comes home to yell at his kids and throws them through a window. You know, Father, your son might not have tried to kill you if you weren't such a gigantic *******. They all end up in the garden/courtyard where the Jedi are.

The Son overpowers his Father so Kenobi throws Anakin the altar sword, which ahsoka intercepts and brings to the son. "Everything has transpired exactly as I planned." Yeah, right. The Son decalres Ahsoka's usefulness over and touches her forehead, making her collapse to the ground. The Son goes to stab the father but the Daughter throws herself between her. You know you could have tackled him, right? The Son doesn't take sororicide instead of parricide well and flies aways screaming. 

Anakin rushes to Ahsoka's side while the Daughter implores her father to not hate her brother. the father says that all is lost as the balance is broken. Anakin only cares about his padawan, though. the Father says there's no hope, Anakin says there's always hope. The Daughter worldessly gestures towards the togruta. The Father decides to help her Daughter's last act to be saving Ahsoka. Both he and Skywalker places themselves between the two and make the same gestures while Anakin and the two women glow as the Force's theme is blasting. Ahsoka wakes up and asks what's going on. The Father says that as his son descends into the Dark Side (so they're *not*, ah, screw it) the sith will become more powerful and the Clone war more intese. Anakin wants to stop him but the Father says they must leave immediately because "He needs your ship to leave the planet."
*Spoiler: Oh, come on!*
Show





The Father is just gonna stay and mourn.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

well, it's not as bad as the previous one but it's still not good. And the pretty factor is gone.
Why do they even have the blade?
The constant flip-flopping on whether the Son _is_ (of) the Dark Side or was corrupted by it makes me think there was two visins at play during the writing of the episode. Anyone has any info on this? this makes his actions really weird since they make sense in one optic and not the other. If he's just a really powerful darksider, he needs the ship so keeping the Jedi on Mortis makes sense but not trying to kill the Father (he's already dying) and trying to corrupt Anakin. If he is the Dark Side, he should be content to let them leave knowing full well that it'll soon come to the point where his Father will be weak enough for him to kill him himself.
Also if they're not embodiments of the Force, I suppose the father didn't make his Children by parthogenesis so I wonder if they're a Mother around. What would she be aligned with? The Nightsisters? Please, tell me it's not going to be Mother Talzin.

Gonna wait for the next episode before commenting on Ahsoka and Anakin and The Daughter and the Son's respective relationships.


*Next up:* Ghosts of Mortis

*Major issue with the Prequels, right there.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> Also if they're not embodiments of the Force, I suppose the father didn't make his Children by parthogenesis so I wonder if they're a Mother around. What would she be aligned with? The Nightsisters? Please, tell me it's not going to be Mother Talzin.


Disney's Atlantis put it best:

"You don't wanna know, trust me. Audrey, don't tell him. You shouldn't have told me, but you did and know I'm telling you, you don't wanna know!"

----------


## Peelee

> I don't really like this headcanon. Too dualistic for me, I like the idea that Dark/Light Side is a Jedi concept and other traditions have other ideas about the Force that are no less wrong.


Seconded. Disney needs to try to get people who can introduce that into the Canon. Doubt they will though.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Seconded. Disney needs to try to get people who can introduce that into the Canon. Doubt they will though.


Well, I remember one (boooring) book about people onna starship exchanging stories about Luke Skywalker, one of which had him encounter a bunch of people who called the Force "The Flow" or something to that extent. I don't remember much about that book (including the title) but I thought that was a step in that direction.

Edit: found it. It was _The Legends of Luke Skywalker_ by Ken Liu of all people.

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## dancrilis

> Which would make some kind of sense if the Dark Side wasn't constantly making people super-evil regardless of their original intentions. "The universe needs to be at equilibrium between heroism and child-murder" isn't really great as far as philosophical statements go.


From one prespective without evil there can be no good - so without villians there would be no heroes.

But another view might be to think of it as a Sith/Jedi viewpoint - both groups believe that if you take steps outside of the 'light' you might as well be a child killer. 

If this view point is wrong and that the light side of force is merely allowing yourself to be guided by what is good for the universe and the dark side is merely allowing yourself to be guided by what is good for yourself then it is possible that life does require balance between the two (a problem being that The Jedi start to see you as a potential threat to the galaxy as soon as you act a bit selfish - marry, enjoy the comfort of a mattress, own a cat etc).

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## Fyraltari

> From one prespective without evil there can be no good - so without villians there would be no heroes.


That's nonsense the very definition of evil is the lack of good. The idea that good needs evil to exist is self contradictory.

I also finds the argument of "if there's no 'eed for heroes, then there wouldn't be heroes" to be rather unconvincing. Like, yes, and?




> If this view point is wrong and that the light side of force is merely allowing yourself to be guided by what is good for the universe and the dark side is merely allowing yourself to be guided by what is good for yourself then it is possible that life does require balance between the two (a problem being that The Jedi start to see you as a potential threat to the galaxy as soon as you act a bit selfish - marry, enjoy the comfort of a mattress, own a cat etc).


Except that the Dark Side is also pretty much always portrayed as self-destructing and in some case actually physically harmful to the wielder. I would also question the separation of what's good for the universe vs what's good for yourself since yourself is very much a part of the universe.

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## dancrilis

> That's nonsense the very definition of evil is the lack of good. The idea that good needs evil to exist is self contradictory.


No it isn't - firstly both good and evil have have multiple definations, secondly the idea that without good you are evil is very dubious (I understand where it comes from but that would breach forum rules).

Further if evil were a lack of good then things that were not capable of being (morally) good (electrons, tables, galaxies, ladders) would be (morally) evil.




> I also finds the argument of "if there's no 'eed for heroes, then there wouldn't be heroes" to be rather unconvincing. Like, yes, and?


The Star Wars universe exists to tell stories - without villians those stories don't get told and so the universe would effectively never have formed, further without villians no new stories would be told so the universe would effectively die.
In order for the universe to be healthy villians must exist.




> I would also question the separation of what's good for the universe vs what's good for yourself since yourself is very much a part of the universe.


Consider it small scale - you want a promotion (good for you) you know that the other person in line for the job would be better at it (good for the company and its employees - i.e the universe) - you would be able for the job taking it wouldn't hurt your career (and would help) just you wouldn't be as good at it.
The Dark Side would tell you take the job, the Light Side would tell you let the better person have it - under this theory at least.

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## Kornaki

Now I want a star wars universe where the sith are genre savvy to know that the whole world ceases to exist if its stories aren't told, so get up to murdering just to keep the stories flowing.

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## Peelee

> Now I want a star wars universe where the sith are genre savvy to know that the whole world ceases to exist if its stories aren't told, so get up to murdering just to keep the stories flowing.


Even genre savvy worlds know that the stories never end, there's just a point at which the storyteller stops talking.

----------


## Kornaki

> Even genre savvy worlds know that the stories never end, there's just a point at which the storyteller stops talking.


No, they're genre savvy enough to know that they are literally just characters in a story that someone is making up . If the storyteller stops talking, their world ceases to exist literally. So they commit evil acts that are justified by continuing to make the story interesting.

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## Peelee

> No, they're genre savvy enough to know that they are literally just characters in a story that someone is making up . If the storyteller stops talking, their world ceases to exist literally. So they commit evil acts that are justified by continuing to make the story interesting.


Except when another storyteller starts talking later, the world existed the entire time and all the things that happened between the stories happened, so it doesn't matter if there's a gap between the storytellers.

I should also note om generally not a fan of such 4th wall broken-news, so I very much would hate such a Star Wars universe.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 3, Episode 17: Ghosts of Mortis*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Anakin and Obi-Wan are talking while Ahsoka repairs the ship. Hey, why isn't the mecanical/engineering genius the one doing it? What's more I would think Ahsoka would have needed some rest after, you know, *dying*. They're in no condition to take-off and even after repairs, Tano can't guarantee the ship could go any further than the planet's atmosphere. Well it's not like they would know where to go once they'd reached that point anyway. Anakin isn't convinced they should leave right away and he decides to go see the Father to have "his blessing to leave". Bitch, he's the one who told you to your asses off this place at once.

Meanwhile, the Celestial Daddy is putting his Daughter to rest (did they always have this place or did he build the tomb for the occasion?) with the sword. Anakin shows up and the Father tells him he should really leave before the Son tries to use him. He also says that he's going to make up for his mistake by killing the Son. I feel like you should take the sword designed for this express purpose with you, then, old man. Anakin says he wants to help but Sky-grandad says it's a bit late for that and that their destinies are clouded. He points him in a direction and says that by going there Skywalker will know what to do. He does and who does he find there but good ol' Qui-Gon. Jinn asks if he believes he's the Chosen One (aren't we past this, by now?) and say that *he* believes Anakin is going to bring Balance to the Force and save the Universe. He also tells him to neither leave nor kill the Son but go to a nearby place strong in the Dark Side and remember his training as well as trust his instinct. And then he ghosts out. Dying really made him unhelpful, heh?

Obi-Wan brings Ahsoka some orange coffee or whatever and gives her some advice to repair the ship (he's being so authoritarian with it, I thought he was the son in disguise for a moment). He then is confronted by the Father who tells him Anakin is about to make a choice and has gone to The Well of the Dark Side, a place where all dark energies are chanelled. The Father wants to stop Obi-Wan from interfering but Kenobi points out it's way too late for that and heads off to the Well. Said well is a big hole in the ground leading to a lava pool with a rock island. Anakin lands on it and doesn't burn due to the heat because shut up. The Son greets him and tells him they don't have to fight. He disarms the Jedi and offers to show him the Future. Didn't the Father just say that wasn't possible? Smoke surrounds Anakin and he sees images of Sidious renaming him, of himself fighting Obi-Wan, strangling Padmé and killing the younglings as well as Alderaan going kaboom and finally the mask of Vader accompanied by his iconic breathing.
*Spoiler: Meh, doesn't hold a candle to this*
Show





Everyone is wearing the Clone Wars outfit, and while I understand they weren't going to make models just for this scene, I find it funny that the Force is apprently confused or showing him an alternate timeline where the only difference with canon is that everybody forgot about laundry day. Anakin is apalled by what he we'll become and the Son says he can change this future by joining him so that they can destroy this "Emperor" and end war, corruption and suffering throughout the Galaxy. Skywalker asks if they would bring peace (what part of "end war" didn't you get?) and accepts. Ah, yes, I'll join the Dark Side to avoid joining the Dark Side. Me very clever Jedi, me makes best decisions, Yes-yes.

Ahsoka manages to get the radio working and calls for help. This has no impact on the plot. Kenobi gets to the Well and Anakin ambushes him, throws his speeder into lava and leaves saying he knows the Jedi will get in the way of peace. The Son tells Kenobi Skywalker is his now and leaves. Huh, kill him? No? You sure? There's absolutely nothing stopping you. Kenobi radios Ahsoka and tells her what's happening, he orders her not to confront Anakin but to sabotage the ship. She takes off some bits of the control panel, narrowly evades Anakin and leaves on his speeder. She gets to Obi-Wan, futilely trying to climb the Well. Anakin tells the Son he can't contact anyone. The Son says he will soon be able to pull passing ships to them. Anakin is worried the two of them can't take on the Jedi and the Father so the Son orders him to guard the ship while he goes to grab the sword.

The Father confronts Anakin, tells him that he can change his destiny and that for Balance to happen he must forgot what he saw. So, he wipes Anakin's memory. Uuuurgh, ****ing hell. The Son goes to his Sister's tomb tells her she was the only one he ever loved and takes the sword. Anakin wakes up at the Father's monastery where the fairy Godfather explains that the Son broke the Law of Time (the what now? Isn't seeing the Future one of the most common Force-powers? I swear.) and that since he's erased his memoris, they will never know. Kenobi and Tano gets there and they resolve to stop the Son. The Father tells Anakin he knows what he must do. And the Son arrives.

The Father makes one last attempt to convince him to be reasonnable, which doesn't work. Then he says he loves him and lets the others attack (you're a terrible parent and all of this is your fault). Anakin strikes the Son with his lightsaber because he's an idiot. The Son wipes the floor with the Jedi (so much for the Chosen One) but the Father takes advantage of the distraction to steal the sword and commit seppuku. T he Son is actually rather distraught over this. The Father syas they are tied to gether and that his death takes away the Son's power (WHAT!? THAT NEGATES THE STAKES OF THE ENTIRE ARC! WHAT!?). The Son begs his Father not to die and the Father hugs him tight saying he always knew there was good in him. Then he makes eye-contact with Skywalker who proceeds to skewer them bith on his lightsaber because that works now, apparently. Have I told you that the Father is a piece of **** of a father? Because if that wasn't clear, the Father is a piece of **** of a Father. The Son calls him out on betraying him (didn't you try to kill him like half a dozen time in two days?) and keels over. The Father tells Anakin he dies with a broken heart but knowing the Role Skywalker will play: he's the Chosen One who has brought balance to this world and that if he stays on this path he will do it again for the Galaxy provided he bewares his heart. Well I guess, there's no Imbalance if there's nothing to be imbalanced.

The Father's body disappears because of course he does, and the entire planet starts collapsing because of course it does. The Jedi wake up in their ship with Rex calling them. He says they were off the scope for a moment and asks what happened. Anakins says he wouldn't believe them if they told him.



*Spoiler: My thought*
Show

This is bad. This is probabaly the worst of the three. The Father is coded as this wise figure but every single one of his actions is stupid and the whole mess is ultimately his fault. The solution to deal with the Son borders on _Deus ex Machina_: turns out the very thing he's been trying to achieve would depower him. Wow, oh clever. I mean, you could spin that and his confused feeling for his relatives to show that the dark Side is ultimately unfullfilling and self-destructive but the episodes just plain don't. Speaking of Dark Side. Anakin's little turn here is meaningless fanservice. It's worse than useless since it onmy really manages to undermine his actual turn (that frankly really didn't need the extra help scuttling itself) since he can apparently be turned with the bearest of effort. And they just wipe his memory of the entire thing. Ya know, just to underline how utterly pointless that was. There's nothing built on the criticism Dark-Ahsoka threw at him last time, which would have been a neat character moment. 

So apparently what he did here is the way he sould have brought balance to the Force? He did next to nothing! He refused to help and the Family basically killed each-other. He did kill the son but the father already had done the heavy lifting! The Father says he would bring Balance to the Force if he bewares his heart? So love is actually evil I guess and he did fail to bring balance? What was he supposed to do then? Because if a dead Family counts as Balance I get the impression he was supposed to put every Force-sensitive being to the sword, then. Did Kreia write the Prophecy? And at the end they wake up and barely a second passed, so I guess they were in an alternate dimension or something? Why was the planet organic and why did that never matterred to the story? Who knows? I certainly don't and I doubt any of the writers do. Bloody hell. At least the arc's over.


Next up: *The Citadel*, hopefully this one will be good.

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## Taevyr

I considered Citadel to be one of the better arcs, definitely a good palate cleanser after Mortis. Mortis is.... somewhat decent if you interpret it as a "vision quest"-like thing, but even then it has some clear holes in the plot and doesn't quite go anywhere.

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## McNum

The Mortis arc was done too soon, I think. Not that "The main cast zones out and has a vision quest" can't slot into almost any time in the story, it's just that the show wasn't ready for it yet. Clone Wars, despite getting better still hadn't exactly found the right balance yet, it just wasn't ready to go that metaphysical. Later seasons totally could have pulled Mortis off, though. Rebels could, too. Honestly, Rebels got weirder, but managed to keep up.

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## Mechalich

> The Mortis arc was done too soon, I think. Not that "The main cast zones out and has a vision quest" can't slot into almost any time in the story, it's just that the show wasn't ready for it yet. Clone Wars, despite getting better still hadn't exactly found the right balance yet, it just wasn't ready to go that metaphysical. Later seasons totally could have pulled Mortis off, though. Rebels could, too. Honestly, Rebels got weirder, but managed to keep up.


That's definitely part of it. TCW handles similar elements better later on too.

I think the real problem with Mortis is that it's a vision quest without any real quest attached. I mean, it can be interpreted that the Celestials are testing Anakin and that he ostensibly fails, but what are they testing him for? What was he supposed to do? It's extremely muddled.

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## Keltest

> That's definitely part of it. TCW handles similar elements better later on too.
> 
> I think the real problem with Mortis is that it's a vision quest without any real quest attached. I mean, it can be interpreted that the Celestials are testing Anakin and that he ostensibly fails, but what are they testing him for? What was he supposed to do? It's extremely muddled.


To say nothing of the fact that they broke the test themselves first when they started, you know, killing each other.

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## Sapphire Guard

They broke 'the laws of time' which means 'spoils the movies'

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## Fyraltari

> I considered Citadel to be one of the better arcs, definitely a good palate cleanser after Mortis. Mortis is.... somewhat decent if you interpret it as a "vision quest"-like thing, but even then it has some clear holes in the plot and doesn't quite go anywhere.


Having watched the first episode, yeah. It's much better.



> The Mortis arc was done too soon, I think. Not that "The main cast zones out and has a vision quest" can't slot into almost any time in the story, it's just that the show wasn't ready for it yet. Clone Wars, despite getting better still hadn't exactly found the right balance yet, it just wasn't ready to go that metaphysical. Later seasons totally could have pulled Mortis off, though. Rebels could, too. Honestly, Rebels got weirder, but managed to keep up.


I don't think so. The whole prophecy business just simply doesn't square with Vader's character. I simply don't see how you could make it work. And your mileage may vary, but I, for one, find the idea of embodiments of the "Sides" of the Force, and of the Balance (between both Sides) to be utterly worthless.



> That's definitely part of it. TCW handles similar elements better later on too.
> 
> I think the real problem with Mortis is that it's a vision quest without any real quest attached. I mean, it can be interpreted that the Celestials are testing Anakin and that he ostensibly fails, but what are they testing him for? What was he supposed to do? It's extremely muddled.


No, no, no, no. It's dumber than that. If this was some kind of test, he didn't fail, he bloody *passed* since the Father tells him he's on the right course. But he also says that he should "beware his heart" meaning that him sidong with Sidious to save Padmé was him failing to fullfill the Prophecy, except that the Father took away the memories that would have helped preventing him to make that choice. It's impressive how much stupid there is in this. The longer you look the more stupid you find.

They really had no idea what they were trying to say with these episodes.

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## Peelee

> The whole prophecy business just simply doesn't square with Vader's character. I simply don't see how you could make it work. And your mileage may vary, but I, for one, find the idea of embodiments of the "Sides" of the Force, and of the Balance (between both Sides) to be utterly worthless.


Indeed. Having a prophecy to start with was a horrible idea and went against both established canon and future canon. "Always in motion is the future", that's how it is. Everything did not proceed as the Emperor had forseen. Every time someone relies too much on visions of the future, it bites them in the ass. So what the hell was a prophecy supposed to accomplish? "The future is uncertain and can proceed in unexpected ways, so here's some writing set in stone"? It was a terrible idea when Lucas wrote it, it panned out terribly, and it has been terrible in every reference. They should just let it go already.

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## dancrilis

> Everything did not proceed as the Emperor had forseen.


Unless it did.

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## Fyraltari

> Indeed. Having a prophecy to start with was a horrible idea and went against both established canon and future canon. "Always in motion is the future", that's how it is. Everything did not proceed as the Emperor had forseen. Every time someone relies too much on visions of the future, it bites them in the ass. So what the hell was a prophecy supposed to accomplish? "The future is uncertain and can proceed in unexpected ways, so here's some writing set in stone"? It was a terrible idea when Lucas wrote it, it panned out terribly, and it has been terrible in every reference. They should just let it go already.


This is all very sound and valid but, speaking for myself, it's not much of a problem. Yoda's line could be explained as "I once trusted a prophecy and, *boy*, dit it bite me in my sorry little green bottom" and the emperor as being wrong because evil bad guy.
Or you could say that *T*he *P*rophecytm is different from regular old visions (who always seem to come true anyway) because instead of being "hey, here's what's going to happen to you in two hours" it's more of a religious-eschatologic thing. Like, it's the coming of *T*he *C*hosen *O*netm who will bring Balance to our deity-thing that underpins the universe and bring a golden age as everybody reaches enlightenment or something.

And that's exactly my problem with it. It's a thousand-year old prophecy, it's obviously important but it has nothing to do with Anakin's arc. It's entirely superfluous. And it's so absurdly vague people aren't sure what it even means. It just pollutes the story by adding another retcon to Anakin's turn and the first one was allready pretty bad.



> Unless it did.


I'm not going to bet that everything went according to the plan of the guy who lost his apprentice, his prized super-weapon (again), his flagship, a legion of his best troops, *his ****ing life* and whose Empire crumbled as a direct consequence of that defeat.

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## Kornaki

> I'm not going to bet that everything went according to the plan of the guy who lost his apprentice, his prized super-weapon (again), his flagship, a legion of his best troops, *his ****ing life* and whose Empire crumbled as a direct consequence of that defeat.


And 30 years later he has an army of superweapons, the military might of the good guys is stripped to nothing, and something about Rey? I'm not really clear on what the last step was there.  But it didn't seem like he lost much anyway.

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## Fyraltari

> And 30 years later he has an army of superweapons, the military might of the good guys is stripped to nothing, and something about Rey? I'm not really clear on what the last step was there.  But it didn't seem like he lost much anyway.


Sounds like he lost thirty years. Like, in what way was his defeat at Endor necessary to get all this?

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## Mechalich

> And that's exactly my problem with it. It's a thousand-year old prophecy, it's obviously important but it has nothing to do with Anakin's arc. It's entirely superfluous. And it's so absurdly vague people aren't sure what it even means. It just pollutes the story by adding another retcon to Anakin's turn and the first one was allready pretty bad.


The prophecy's only real purpose in the story of the Prequels is that it serves as the justification for why the Jedi Order actually agrees to break a whole bunch of rules and train Anakin in spite of his advanced age and unusual origins. 

Now, it is important to the story that Anakin has a unique background, that he's not raised in the temple and doesn't think along the same lines as all the other Jedi around him. Social isolation and misinterpretation of the Jedi philosophy is a big part of why Anakin ultimately falls. So some justification for why the Jedi Order allowed this to happen is important, but a thousand-year prophecy was a terrible choice.

A better option would have been to have the Sith be aware of Anakin's vast talents and have Darth Maul try to kidnap him during TPM, in which case the Jedi could agree to train Anakin for his own safety.

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## dancrilis

> Sounds like he lost thirty years. Like, in what way was his defeat at Endor necessary to get all this?


It isn't about winning the game it is about playing the game.

Essentially it is possible that Palpatine won the game 'Conquer the Galaxy' and then he started a game of its expansion story 'Run the Galaxy' and it just was not as good a game in his view so he reset the board and restarted the game he actually liked.

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## Fyraltari

> It isn't about winning the game it is about playing the game.
> 
> Essentially it is possible that Palpatine won the game 'Conquer the Galaxy' and then he started a game of its expansion story 'Run the Galaxy' and it just was not as good a game in his view so he reset the board and restarted the game he actually liked.


That'd be an interesting theory if there were anything to support it.

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## dancrilis

> That'd be an interesting theory if there were anything to support it.


If it is not what happened how else to you suppose everything had proceeded as the Emperor had forseen (also it makes the sequels make much more sense).

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## Fyraltari

> If it is not what happened how else to you suppose everything had proceeded as the Emporer had forseen (also it makes the sequels make much more sense).


It did not, that's my point. Sidious was lying as he often does. We know this because he admits in an earlier scene to not knowing Luke was even there.

The sequels don't make sense, especially when it comes to Sidious and I see no reason to make excuses for them.

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## dancrilis

> It did not, that's my point.


That was Peelee's statement - the discussion is on what if it did.




> Originally Posted by Peelee
> 
> 
> Everything did not proceed as the Emperor had forseen.
> 
> 
> Unless it did.


If everything did proceed as the Emperor had forseen, then it did proceed as the Emperor had forseen and as such his 'defeat' was part of 'the plan'.




> Sidious was lying as he often does. We know this because he admits in an earlier scene to not knowing Luke was even there.


You believe that he was lying because you believe he was telling the truth about Luke - if you don't trust him on forseeing the future why trust him on not sensing Luke?

----------


## Fyraltari

> That was Peelee's statement - the discussion is on what if it did.
> 
> 
> If everything did proceed as the Emperor had forseen, then it did proceed as the Emperor had forseen and as such his 'defeat' was part of 'the plan'.


Well, no, if everything proceeded as Sidious had foreseen, then Luke would have killed Vader, turned to the Dark Side and become Sidious's new apprentice while the Rebel Alliance would have been crushed by the Second Death Star and Sidious would have gone on ruling the galaxy and blowing up planets to his heart's content.





> You believe that he was lying because you believe he was telling the truth about Luke - if you don't trust him on forseeing the future why trust him on not sensing Luke?


Because of context. In one occasion he was plotting his moves with his subordinate (and admitting failure on his part) and in the other he was trying to crush his opponent's hopes. He has a clear reason to lie in the second case but not in the first.

----------


## dancrilis

> Well, no, if everything proceeded as Sidious had foreseen, then Luke would have killed Vader, turned to the Dark Side and become Sidious's new apprentice while the Rebel Alliance would have been crushed by the Second Death Star and Sidious would have gone on ruling the galaxy and blowing up planets to his heart's content.


That would only make sense if he wanted to continue to rule the galaxy - rather then do something else.




> Because of context. In one occasion he was plotting his moves with his subordinate (and admitting failure on his part) and in the other he was trying to crush his opponent's hopes. He has a clear reason to lie in the second case but not in the first.


If he was plotting to encourage Vader to move against him them showing weakness (lack of knowledge) to Vader makes sense- then later he could mock Luke with the truth which Vader assumes is a lie because of the lie he told Vader earlier.

----------


## Peelee

> That'd be an interesting theory if there were anything to support it.


Funny, that's how I feel about Palpatine coming back to life.  :Small Wink: 

You just _had_ to put the word "theory" in there and make my joke lose a little punch, didn't you?

----------


## Keltest

> Funny, that's how I feel about Palpatine coming back to life. 
> 
> You just _had_ to put the word "theory" in there and make my joke lose a little punch, didn't you?


As far as im concerned, all the sequel movies are only theoretically canon, so i think it works out.

----------


## Fyraltari

> You just _had_ to put the word "theory" in there and make my joke lose a little punch, didn't you?


 :Small Confused: 



> As far as im concerned, all the sequel movies are only theoretically canon, so i think it works out.


Either you discard the notion of canon (which is entirely valid a position to make, just because the bigwigs of Disney bought Lucasfilm doesn't mean they get to decide which stories you should consider more important) or you accept all of it. "As far as I'm concerned" and "canon" are rather contradictory phrases.

----------


## Keltest

> Either you discard the notion of canon (which is entirely valid a position to make, just because the bigwigs of Disney bought Lucasfilm doesn't mean they get to decide which stories you should consider more important) or you accept all of it. "As far as I'm concerned" and "canon" are rather contradictory phrases.


Alternatively, i was cracking a joke at the expense of the sequels and my statement should not be read as a literal transcription of my actual opinion.

----------


## dancrilis

> Originally Posted by Peelee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Fyraltari
> ...


I believe that Peelee is saying that if you had written: That'd be interesting if there were anything to support it.

Then it would match his view on Palpatine's return.




> Either you discard the notion of canon (which is entirely valid a position to make, just because the bigwigs of Disney bought Lucasfilm doesn't mean they get to decide which stories you should consider more important) or you accept all of it. "As far as I'm concerned" and "canon" are rather contradictory phrases.


But you are happy enough to pretend the Mortis arc never happened I take it.

Ultimately I think the sequels work much better if you imagine that Palpatine is an all-powerful troll who gets bored on occassion and starts to mess with people - I also think they make more sense that way.

----------


## Peelee

> I believe that Peelee is saying that if you had written: That'd be interesting if there were anything to support it.
> 
> Then it would match his view on Palpatine's return.


Aye. Thanks!

----------


## Fyraltari

> But you are happy enough to pretend the Mortis arc never happened I take it.


I'm not pretending it never happened. I'm just hoping it never gets referenced again. Which is easier than doing the same for the ST since the Mortis arc is utterly unconsequential.

Edit: okay, I realize that I literally wrote "as a fandom can we pretend this never happened" so that's a little hypocritical of me.

Also, I've noticed that I've cared less and less about "canon" over the last couple of years* give me a while and I may just reach the point where my position is basically just "**** it".

*At least when it comes to large long runners with various creative teams behind them. I'm still a stickler for finer points of canon for stuff like, say, _The Lord of the Rings_ or _A Song of Fire_ where there is a single creative vision.

----------


## Mechalich

> I'm not pretending it never happened. I'm just hoping it never gets referenced again. Which is easier than doing the same for the ST since the Mortis arc is utterly unconsequential.


Mortis was referenced again, in both versions of canon. In Legends it was decided that the Ones were Celestials and they were tied in to various creations and phenomena scattered about the galaxy. They were referenced, in some detail in the Fate of the Jedi novels and the standalone novel _Crucible_, in very ham-handed fashion both times. In the Disney canon they were referenced in Rebels, as the 'Mortis Gods' suggesting that they were also placed into the roles of Celestials again.

However, none of the _events_ of the Mortis arc were ever referenced, just the backdrop idea of the Ones as beings capable of manipulating the Force on some kind of higher level than ordinary mortals. Accepting that, there is the implication that there was some kind of linkage between Anakin's status as the Chosen One and the machinations of the Celestials with regard to the galaxy, but the arc is so vague that the link can be basically anything any fan wants it to be.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> Mortis was referenced again, in both versions of canon. In Legends it was decided that the Ones were Celestials and they were tied in to various creations and phenomena scattered about the galaxy. They were referenced, in some detail in the Fate of the Jedi novels and the standalone novel _Crucible_, in very ham-handed fashion both times. In the Disney canon they were referenced in Rebels, as the 'Mortis Gods' suggesting that they were also placed into the roles of Celestials again.
> 
> However, none of the _events_ of the Mortis arc were ever referenced, just the backdrop idea of the Ones as beings capable of manipulating the Force on some kind of higher level than ordinary mortals. Accepting that, there is the implication that there was some kind of linkage between Anakin's status as the Chosen One and the machinations of the Celestials with regard to the galaxy, but the arc is so vague that the link can be basically anything any fan wants it to be.


Can't speak for fandom, but for myself, I had less of a problem with the continuation in Rebels.  There at least they were mythologized and vague.  Something some ancient Jedi believed in, with wiggle room for it just being allegory.  In Clone Wars they were more literal and it just comes off as silly to have physical Force Gods walking around, especially given the disconnected nature of things from the larger story.

Easiest way for me to bridge it is just to take things how the opening scroll presents them.  These are all stories told about a time "Long Ago, In a Galaxy Far Away".   One of those future tellers just took the stories of Anakin and Obi-Wan and mashed them up with the even more ancient myths of the Mortis Gods.  Head-canon resolved.

----------


## pendell

> As far as im concerned, all the sequel movies are only theoretically canon, so i think it works out.


They're canon _for now_.   Given Hollywood currently reboots all its properties every ten years, it's probably not wise to invest in any story telling canon , good or bad, as if it were a set in stone fact like the laws of of physics.   I see they're rebooting BSG, for example. 

If in ten years someone wants to write a new set of stories and pretend the existing movies never happened, well, that's been done before.  

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Keltest

> They're canon _for now_.   Given Hollywood currently reboots all its properties every ten years, it's probably not wise to invest in any story telling canon , good or bad, as if it were a set in stone fact like the laws of of physics.   I see they're rebooting BSG, for example. 
> 
> If in ten years someone wants to write a new set of stories and pretend the existing movies never happened, well, that's been done before.  
> 
> Respectfully, 
> 
> Brian P.


Ive heard rumors that due to the generally poor reception of the sequels, Disney is seriously looking at de-canonizing them and the attached media and trying again. But i dont think theyve put out any official word on that either way.

----------


## Mechalich

> Can't speak for fandom, but for myself, I had less of a problem with the continuation in Rebels.  There at least they were mythologized and vague.  Something some ancient Jedi believed in, with wiggle room for it just being allegory.  In Clone Wars they were more literal and it just comes off as silly to have physical Force Gods walking around, especially given the disconnected nature of things from the larger story.


I think the allegorical approach works for the Mortis Arc itself too. There's nothing in the episodes that suggests Anakin, Ahsoka, and Obi-Wan actually visited a physical place as opposed to some kind of collective dreamscape. Even if the Mortis monolith itself is an actual object created by the Celestials wandering around the galaxy the area within can just be a mindscape the adjusts according to the nature and intent of the visitors. 

*Spoiler*
Show

Between TCW and Rebels we have three instances of characters going into Force-mediated species where they interact with the creations of phenomenally powerful primordial beings: Mortis, Yoda's encounter with the Force Priestesses, and Ezra's visit to the World Between Worlds. It's entirely possible that all three characters are undergoing the same sort of interaction with higher powers, but that the nature of the visions conforms to their expectations. Intriguingly, in this view the most important revelation of Mortis is that Anakin imagines the nature of the galaxy as a squabbling, dysfunctional family feud, which at least fits his character arc.

----------


## Keltest

> I think the allegorical approach works for the Mortis Arc itself too. There's nothing in the episodes that suggests Anakin, Ahsoka, and Obi-Wan actually visited a physical place as opposed to some kind of collective dreamscape. Even if the Mortis monolith itself is an actual object created by the Celestials wandering around the galaxy the area within can just be a mindscape the adjusts according to the nature and intent of the visitors. 
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Between TCW and Rebels we have three instances of characters going into Force-mediated species where they interact with the creations of phenomenally powerful primordial beings: Mortis, Yoda's encounter with the Force Priestesses, and Ezra's visit to the World Between Worlds. It's entirely possible that all three characters are undergoing the same sort of interaction with higher powers, but that the nature of the visions conforms to their expectations. Intriguingly, in this view the most important revelation of Mortis is that Anakin imagines the nature of the galaxy as a squabbling, dysfunctional family feud, which at least fits his character arc.


*Spoiler*
Show

Curiously, it would also seem to indicate that he views the Force as a parental figure that has expectations for him that he has little interest in and no idea how to meet, that he finds the Light Side to be out of touch and aloof even if it is well meaning, and the Dark Side to be the only one interested in breaking a painful status quo even if the end result isnt desirable.

----------


## Peelee

> Ive heard rumors that due to the generally poor reception of the sequels, Disney is seriously looking at de-canonizing them and the attached media and trying again. But i dont think theyve put out any official word on that either way.


Sounds more like baseless wishes. Don't get me wrong I'd love that, but I put zero stock into it.

----------


## pendell

> Sounds more like baseless wishes. Don't get me wrong I'd love that, but I put zero stock into it.


Say rather deliberate rumor-mongering put about by sources inside Disney to keep people talking about Star wars. There are a number of youtube channels which pass on such rumors; I'm of the opinion Disney deliberately stokes them for the purpose of publicity. 

Possibly there are people within Disney talking about this or wanting to do it, but I don't think it'll happen under the current leadership; this would require them to admit they were wrong. 

But that doesn't mean future movies or videos will not retcon elements of the sequel trilogy if the producers think there's money in doing so. When you think about it, Episode 9 itself retconned Rey's "no one special" identity established in Episode 8.   

I guess that's my real problem with modern Hollywood and Disney -- they aren't really concerned with canon continuity or even the story itself as such. It's a marketing vehicle to get butts in seats and dollars in their pockets.  If they bring on some director who thinks it would be cool to have an interstellar invasion of purple giraffes who are magically immune to the force, well , they'll film that and put it on screen.    Then, after the inevitable flop, the next set of shows will carry on as if the last one never happened.  

So I enjoy the bits of star wars story telling that appeal to me, and I've learned not to get worked up about current canon, because current canon is always changing.  I have a sourcebook on Coruscant at home dated from about 2005 , which goes into great details about Coruscant undergoing Vongforming under Yuuzhan Vong occupation.   I absolutely hated that part of the story , but it was canon -- for awhile. It's not any more, and that particular view of the world is in the dustbin of history where it belongs. It never happened in the new continuity, and that's one part of the old EU I don't miss at all. 

Give it a few years, and the bits of Nucanon that don't work will either be retconned out of existence or simply dropped down the memory hole, while the stuff that really works such as the Mandalorian will be built upon and expanded.  Or who knows, maybe Disney will sell out to someone else and they will reboot the franchise from ground zero a third time. Anything is possible when there's enough money being waved under studio exec's noses. 

Maybe that's why there are such a thing as 'classics'.  When we see classic shows, they seem to be better than new ones, but  that's only because we've only kept the very best shows and music from earlier time periods. There was just as much dreck produced in the nineteenth century as there was today; the difference is that most of it didn't stand the test of time, and was dropped down the memory hole.    Only the very best entertainment survives across decades to be loved by multiple generations.  

I'm confident in saying that original Star Wars has already passed that test, given we are on our third generation of SW fans.  Even the Prequel trilogy , little as those of us OG fans liked it,  seems to have stood the test, witness the many millenials who have fond memories of the PT.  Whether the ST will leave a similar mark remains to be seen.  If it doesn't, it will go, and no one will miss it.  But until then, I refuse to get overly upset about the 'canonical Star Wars' story of the moment, just because it's not the story I would tell. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Mechalich

> I guess that's my real problem with modern Hollywood and Disney -- they aren't really concerned with canon continuity or even the story itself as such.


Generally, strict canon continuity has artistic value to a franchise only until it's broken the first time. Once you allow that you're in a multiverse, there's no takebacks.

Legends Star Wars managed to _just barely_ remain under one continuity (it got really stretchy at points, there was some time travel even) only because a single person - George Lucas - owned the whole thing. It was, among modern major franchises, unique in that way. Disney committed an act of artistic vandalism when they killed that status, even if it was, economically the 'correct' move.

Going from one timeline to two is the big step. Going from two to three or four or five is nothing by comparison (DC and Marvel are all over the place and loving it). A this point I suspect a new universe in which the ST never happens is more likely than not, but that doesn't mean they'll be officially de-canonized or anything, they'll just be two different things occupying the ~30 ABY space. Also, they'll probably only be one set of live action films in that timeframe, but an alternate universe via animation or comics could easily happen. 

However, it's unlikely to happen anytime soon. The ST, for all its difficulties in secondary markets, still has long tail money to play out (especially Galaxy's Edge, which is a physical construct and therefore a very large sunk cost). The Mandalorian's currently at ~10 ABY, meaning they've got ten to fifteen years of timeline before anyone really has to even think about leading into the ST or not. Disney can push any sort of decision way out into the 2030s.

It also matters what other portions of the franchise acquire strength in the interim. This is a Clone Wars thread, and Clone Wars is a steady pillar of Star Wars at this point, one strong enough to both get brought back from the dead (for season 7) and to spin off another animated show. The ST, by contrast, is a weak spot in the franchise, and it has been hard to attach other products to it (Resistance canceled, relatively few novels/comics in the zone, etc.). The current effort is to try to make a new High Republic space for the franchise, but early returns have been rather dubious.

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## pendell

Good point on the theme park; that sunken cost means they can't walk it back completely, as you say. 

Even so, "multiple timelines" sounds like a nifty dodge which actually means "we can pretend that embarrassing movie never happened . We never have to refer to it again and we don't need to explain why beyond saying 'timey-wimey'.   :Small Amused: 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Mechalich

> Even so, "multiple timelines" sounds like a nifty dodge which actually means "we can pretend that embarrassing movie never happened . We never have to refer to it again and we don't need to explain why beyond saying 'timey-wimey'.


Rebels introduced an in-universe method to spawn as many timelines as necessary:

*Spoiler*
Show

When Ezra goes into the World Between Worlds he pulls Ahsoka out of time, preventing Vader from killing her on Malachor and allowing her to emerge, quite alive, several years later. This can be interpreted as an alternate timeline, the Disney-Canon Ahsoka-Yes universe compared to the Dinsey-Canon Ahsoka-No universe in which Ezra doesn't do that. Going with that, any time anyone else goes into the World Between Worlds (not exactly a commonplace event but there's nothing to say it can't happen repeatedly, especially since Ahsoka's magical owl Morai is somehow linked to the Daughter and can presumably guide others on the correct path) they could create a new timeline by altering fate in a similar way.

----------


## Peelee

> Legends Star Wars managed to _just barely_ remain under one continuity (it got really stretchy at points, there was some time travel even) only because a single person - George Lucas - owned the whole thing. It was, among modern major franchises, unique in that way.


Except it didn't, and it wasn't. Lucas approved storyline for books, then retconned those storylines in his movies. Hell, he even retconned the first movie with the second movie!

----------


## Keltest

> Except it didn't, and it wasn't. Lucas approved storyline for books, then retconned those storylines in his movies. Hell, he even retconned the first movie with the second movie!


Could you elaborate on that? Its not immediately apparent to me what youre referring to.

----------


## Peelee

> Could you elaborate on that? Its not immediately apparent to me what youre referring to.


The one that's always easy pickings - Boba Fett is the pseudonym of a man named Jaster Mereel who left his life as basically-a-cop to become a bounty hunter. Until Episode II comes out and Boba Fett is a clone of a Mandalorian named Jango Fett and who is this Jaster Mereel fellow, never heard of him. Until more works come out where Jaster Mereel was Jango Fett's father, no his mentor, no Mandalore, no Jango isn't a Mandalorian anymore, and so on and so on.

This is a franchise that had at least five levels of canon, despite being run by a single man. That is definitely unique among franchises, but in the opposite direction. It was a ridiculous mess.

ETA: The author of that story has a _fantastic_ take on it all: 


> I prefer mine, of course. But it didn't particularly annoy me. I don't care much about canon, and my stories are still out there for anyone who wants to read them. And frankly, even within the universe of commercial fiction, [George] Lucas was utterly contemptuous of his own early writing, when it came time to make the prequels. The idea that I should get annoyed about him ignoring mine? No.

----------


## Keltest

> The one that's always easy pickings - Boba Fett is the pseudonym of a man named Jaster Mereel who left his life as basically-a-cop to become a bounty hunter. Until Episode II comes out and Boba Fett is a clone of a Mandalorian named Jango Fett and who is this Jaster Mereel fellow, never heard of him. Until more works come out where Jaster Mereel was Jango Fett's father, no his mentor, no Mandalore, no Jango isn't a Mandalorian anymore, and so on and so on.
> 
> This is a franchise that had at least five levels of canon, despite being run by a single man. That is definitely unique among franchises, but in the opposite direction. It was a ridiculous mess.
> 
> ETA: The author of that story has a _fantastic_ take on it all:


I meant specifically retconning TPM with AotC

----------


## pendell

> The one that's always easy pickings - Boba Fett is the pseudonym of a man named Jaster Mereel who left his life as basically-a-cop to become a bounty hunter. Until Episode II comes out and Boba Fett is a clone of a Mandalorian named Jango Fett and who is this Jaster Mereel fellow, never heard of him. Until more works come out where Jaster Mereel was Jango Fett's father, no his mentor, no Mandalore, no Jango isn't a Mandalorian anymore, and so on and so on.
> 
> This is a franchise that had at least five levels of canon, despite being run by a single man. That is definitely unique among franchises, but in the opposite direction. It was a ridiculous mess.


Or Vader becoming Luke's father and Leia his sister. I suppose it might _not_ be a retcon but if so it was the least well foreshadowed reveal in the history of moviemaking.

Not to mention changes between revisions, such as replacing the original actor playing Anakin in the Force Ghost seen at the end of ROTJ with Hayden Christensen.

Or editing the New Hope scene so that Greedo shot first. Did he ever edit it back?

He was constantly changing the story in large ways and small, all the while claiming he had always intended it to be that way. I guess he's a perfectionist who's never really satisfied with his work, always wanting to make it better.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

----------


## Peelee

> I meant specifically retconning TPM with AotC


Whenever I talk about a Star Wars movie with words like "first", I'm speaking chronologically. The first Star Wars movie was Star Wars. The second Star Wars movie was The Empire Strikes Back.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> Or Vader becoming Luke's father and Leia his sister. I suppose it might _not_ be a retcon but if so it was the least well foreshadowed reveal in the history of moviemaking.


No, you're right.  It's pretty well documented that Vader was not Anakin when the original Star Wars was filming and was only added a few drafts into the script for Empire.  The "a certain point of view" thing had to be inserted to try to justify the retcon to the backstory Obi-Wan gave.

And the "There is another" line was inserted as a back-door to either replace Luke if Hamill didn't continue in the series, or set up a 2nd protagonist in what was planned to be a much longer string of movies at the time.  When it came down to Jedi having to wrap things up they suddenly had to make an existing character fit that line and that became Leia.  

Not to mention all the other things Lucas flip-flopped on with the setting like if anyone could train to be a Jedi or only certain people.  I don't hold it against him, worldbuilding is a process with a lot of evolution, but it's kind of a miracle everything holds together as much as it does.

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## pendell

> I meant specifically retconning TPM with AotC


Oooh ! ooh! I know! :jumps up and down waving his arm like Hermione Granger:

One word.

Midichlorians.

Maybe not exactly retconned out of existence, but they were definitely never _ever_ mentioned again. I think Lucas saw it was a mis-step to de-mystify the Force and so concentrated more on those aspects. It's not so much that they were declared not-canon as they were dropped in the memory hole, and then they built a great big temple around the memory hole with traps and guards to keep the curious away, then fired the whole shebang, hole and all, into the sun.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

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## Dire_Flumph

> Oooh ! ooh! I know! :jumps up and down waving his arm like Hermione Granger:
> 
> One word.
> 
> Midichlorians.
> 
> Maybe not exactly retconned out of existence, but they were definitely never _ever_ mentioned again.


Sure.

Except Revenge of the Sith

and Clone Wars

oh, and the Mandalorian

----------


## Mechalich

Midi-chlorians were referenced in over forty Legends works, which is quite a few considering, especially considering they didn't exist for a considerable portion of Legends publication and that stories not involving Force users (more works than you'd think) had little reason to talk about them. Disney canon references are more limited, but they do exist and will probably grow in number over time.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Hell, he even retconned the first movie with the second movie!


I wouldn't say that. The second and third movies retconned the first one's backstory not the events of the movie itself. The meaning behind some statements and actions were changed (see the whole "Han **** first debacle") but those statements and actions were acknowledged as having happened. Which isn't quite what people mean when they talk about retconning the ST. While, as a franchise, _Star Wars_, has always been happy to retcon books, comics, video games, cartoons and McDonald's toys, the movies enjoy a rather superior status*, probably due to being both the first and most visible medium used by the franchise**. They're the one thing you can be 99% certain anyone consuming any other given piece of SW media has as a frame of reference. If Disney were to publidh stuff that contradicts the events of the ST, that'd basically be the end of any attempt at cross-media continuity. And I don't think they're willing to do that just yet.

*Those released in theater, I mean, the _Holiday Special_ and the _Ewok_ movies wish they had that visibility.
**Though the fact that _The Clone Wars_ survived the transition to Disney Canon may mean that it gets to share some of that prestige.

----------


## Peelee

> (see the whole "Han **** first debacle")


I'd rather not.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

In terms of canonicity, I think Lucas is pragmatic. You can't easily make a movie chained to decades of tangled continuity, which is why the sequels had to drop the EU as well.

He kept things he liked (the name Coruscant, the name Palpatine) but disregarded things that didn't fit his vision, which was the correct move.)

I can't think of an actual contradiction between the OT and PT that can't be explained by 'X character was wrong/lying/speaking figuratively' like Obi's classic 'certain point of view' trick. The only real one is Leia's garbled memories of her mother, which can be explained by being garbled memories of her mother, or even a force vision.

Han shot first is not a retcon, it doesn't affect anything storywise. 

Things always get revised in the writing process, it's not a retcon unless there's an actual contradiction.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I'd rather not.


Okay, I don't understand how that happened but dince that's easily the best part of my post, I'm keeping it.

----------


## dancrilis

> Okay, I don't understand how that happened but dince that's easily the best part of my post, I'm keeping it.


If I had to guess I would say you hit 'a' rather then 'o' when spelling 'shot' - easy enough to happen when typing quickly on some keyboard layouts (or if muscle memory kicks in and you use words starting with 'sha' a lot).

Edit: hitting a 'i' might have been even easier on a more standard keyboard.

----------


## Fyraltari

> If I had to guess I would say you hit 'a' rather then 'o' when spelling 'shot' - easy enough to happen when typing quickly on some keyboard layouts (or if muscle memory kicks in and you use words starting with 'sha' a lot).
> 
> Edit: hitting a 'i' might have been even easier on a more standard keyboard.


Yes, that's probably it, "i" and "o" are next to each other.

Still funny, though.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 3, Episode 18: The Citadel*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

A Jedi Master named Even Piell has been captured in battle and taken to a Separatist prison called the Citadel (shutupnamesarehard) where he is to be interrogated since he has informations regarding "the Nexus routes", secret Hyperspace lanes. Not sure how hyperspace lanes can be secret, but okay. Plo Koon is debriefing Kenobi, Skywalker, Cody, Rex, Five and Echo, explaining to them that no-one ever escaped the Citadel. Apparently that prison predates the war so they have old maps but because of the separatist defenses they couldn't acquire any recent ones. This mission is very important since the routes lead directly from the heart of Separatist space to Coruscant (is that how Grievous will eventually lead an assault on the capital planet, I wonder?). Obi-wan is worried the Citadel's scanner will detect any approaching lifeform but Ani has a plan. He's interrupted by Ahsoka showing up late. Anakin takes her aside and tells her she won't be coming. The Citadel isn't any old prison: it was created specifically to hold Jedi, should they turn to the Dark Side (interesting...) and it's too dangerous for Padawans. Ahsoka thinks he's being overprotective and she can't learn if she isn't in danger but Skywalker says that this isn't a learning mission and this isn't a debate.

in the Temple hangar R2 shows 3PO his new underlings: a handful of reprogrammed B1s. Thankfully this is the only 3Po "comedy" we get this episode. Fives isn't a fan of the idea of reliying on battle droids, but he doesn't get a vote. Meanwhile Ahsoka goes to see Plo Koon (who's repairing his fighter, I think?) and tell him about her discussion with Anakin. He says that Anakin is doing his duty as her master but she retorts that it should be her choice whether to put her life in danger.

Anakin's plan to shiled them from the lifescans? Carbon freeze the entire team (which includes some more clones). They even got some Ugnaughts set up a unit inside the Temple hangar. Fives is worried he'll turn into a "wallside decoration", ah cute. Unlike Han, though, their hands are in the same place coming in and out of the freezing process. They live and arrive at a planet and WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED HERE!? a good third of the planet is missing and the inside is apparently filled with some glowing fluid (is that supposed to be a very big core?) How is that place not collapsing on itself? The warden (some kind of lizard-like alien) is being extra cautious because of course the JEdi are coming for their imprisoned brother. R2 has the droids pretend they bring in supplies (including frozen rations) and they are let through. The warden monologues on how the Citadel exists to break the JEdi training to resist fear, ffor no reason I can think of.

The shuttle lands in a canyo by a river of yellow lava and the Republicans are unfrozen. "Hey, Snips. -Hey, Master. -Waaaaaaaaait a minute." Obi-Wan jokes about having carbon sickness and hallucinating Ahsoka while Anakin replies it's Ahsoka's hearing that needs fixing. Ahsoka claims that Plo ordered her to come along after their discussion and that Skywalker was already frozen which is why he wasn't told. Way to undermine Anakin's authority, and endanger the whole mission by adding a surprise member of the team to cater to a teenager's whim, Plo. Kenobi can't resist butting in to go all "see what you put me through?" on Anakin. To parpahras another show:
*Obi-wan:* Thank you Ahsoka for teaching kids everywher a valuable lesson: if things don't go your way, just keep complaining until your dreams come true.
*Anakin:* That's a pretty lousy lesson.
*Obi-wan:* Hey, I'm a pretty lousy Master.

They reach the Citadel by foot but the door is high up. It's too windy for jetpack, and there are electric mines on the wall that stops them from using their ascenscion cables, so they'll have to fee climb the rocky facade. Oh no, if only there were someone her that could lift people in the air with the power of their mind! As they reach the platform some droids come out, have a look and leave, locking the door. Apparently a closed door (ray-shielding specifically) is enough to throw their whole plan out. Huh, why didn't you just land in the Citadel hangar? A missing shuttle is bound to attract attention anyway and you probably could have taken out anything present in there. Ahsoka spots a ventilation duct. The others disregarded it sice it's too small to squeeze through. Not for Ahsoka thoug, see aren't you glad she disobeyed direct orders to come here? They get in as the warden is notified that a shuttle is missing. At the same time a clones slips and falls on one of the mines, dying and triggering a Citadel-wide alarm.

The warden has everything locked down and summons his special unit: commando droids! Am I supposed to be impressed? Also, I think that's the same alarm from _A New Hope_, nice. They take out some Death Star-like automated defense and anrrowly avoid some sort of ligthing attack (it still kills a clone, though). They find Piel's cell and take out the droids torturing him (did no-one warn them of what was happening), including one of the same model as the overseer of Jabba's droids. Piel's in good shape. he explains that he destroyed the records of the Nexus Routes and memorized half of them, while his captain memorized the other half, so the separatists couldn't get their hands on them. The Jedi hadn't planned on rescuing anybody else, because just like in Season One they really don't care about the non-Jedi that accompany their colleagues.

On their way to the captain's cell they are spotted by the warden and ambushed by his special team. He's awfully confident that they can take on four armed Jedi (they apparently brought Piel a spare lightsaber), and truth be told they do a surprisingly good job. And by that I mean one of them managed to tackle Tano before being cut in half. The warden uses a ringing noise to inconvienience them and a magnetized ceiling to take their weapons away (sounds like that should have happened alongside the ambush). Of course Skywalker's arm is made of metal so he's lifted too and gets electrified while they're at it. Some more droids show up. Piel and Kenobi Force-push them but their feets are magnetized to prevent that. Still it's hard to fight bent backward. Anakin powers through the pain and grabs his lightsaber (that still works?) and uses it to cut the power falling to the ground with everybody's weapons. They make short work of the droids.

They free the Republican prisoners and we meet even Piel's captain: Cpt Tarkin! Dun, dun, dun! He wonders how they are going to escape when reinforcements are surely coming. OBi-Wan wants to make two teams to ensure the separatists only get at mot half the intelligence, his will create a diversion while the other escapes. Tarkin would rather they concentrate firepower, but general outranks captain so they don't do that. Piel goes with Kenobi and Cody while Tarkin goes with Ahsoka, Rex and Anakin. Obi-Wan's teams puts explosives behind them. Meanwhile a droid reports that tarkin and Co escaped so the warden has him shot for using a bad word. In case you didn't know he was the villain, I guess. Since Obi-Wan's team has been spotted in the upper levels he concludes they want to steal a transport so he has the landing platform sealed (aren't you already under lockdown?) and sends everything he has their way. Kenobi's team create a pretty big explosion while Anakin cuts a hole in the wall leading to a tunnel leading outside. Guess the old maps have a use. Tarkin is being skeptical of Obi-Wan's plan, because he's a prick. Anakin asks him to trust him, Tarkin says he reserves his trust to those who take action. Skywalker reminds him that they got him out of his cell and _he_ reserves his trust to those who understands gratitude. Tarkin flashes a sinister smile to the camera and the episode ends.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Good to have some quality back. This is a pretty fun adventure story. The villain is a bit one-note (no one escapes!) but otherwise very serviceable. It's interesting that this facility was originally buit by the Order to house Fallen Jedi. I hope they build on this. Intoducing Tarkin is something that feels obvious in retrospect but must have been somewhat shocking at the time. He and Anakin are off to a rough start, but the logical way now is for them to end up agreeing and have Anakin be tempted by Tarkin's fascistic outlook. I hope he shows up more so they can use him to show the republic do some evil stuff like bombing civilians and whatnot. Not a fan of Anakin being portrayed in the wrong the one time he takes his repsonsabilities seriously and makes the correct choice of not bringing the teenager to the most dangerous mission evah. And sorry Ahsoka, but as the closest thing you have to a legal guardian it 100% is his choice to make how much danger you should be exposed to. That said, between the 14-year old queens and the padawans going into battle, does nayone know what the age of majority is in the Republic?

You know, after the whole "this weapon is your life" talk I wonder what is going to happen to Piel's lightsaber. Is he going to let it behind (most likely) and if so, will he have to go through whatever process is required to get a new one.

----------


## pendell

> Not sure how hyperspace lanes can be secret, but okay.


Reading through  Starships of the Galaxy,  hyperspace routes are a precise set of course computations which allow ships to travel from one star system to another. If a route hasn't been mapped or charted, travel between star systems is impossible.  That's why the "Galactic Empire" doesn't comprise literally every star system in the galaxy.  You could have a hyperspace route from Coruscant to Tatooine, clear in the outer rim, and travel to the planet might take days or weeks.   But you could have another star 5 light years from Tatooine for which no route is charted;  so despite being a stellar neighbor, you can't reach it in a human life time at sublight speeds.  So the "Galactic Empire" is really a collection of little bubbles connected by trade routes surrounded by vast depths which are unexplored.  

Despite the fact that you can see all the stars in the galaxy from an observatory on Coruscant, this doesn't mean you can create hyperspace routes merely from those observations. That's because the observations you are making are literally millions of years old.  If you tried to pilot a starship based solely on those observations, you might find an unpleasant surprise when you discover that a gas giant or even a star isn't in the same place as it was hundreds of millions of years ago.  

Thus, the hyperspace routes require constant updating, both by those ships who travel the route and by the Hyperspace Navigator's Guild, whose job it is both to update the existing lanes and to chart new ones.  You can purchase trade route data from the space ministry for 150 credits; data is 1 day old for the major trade routes (Corellian Run, Corellian Trade Spine, Hydian Way, Perlemian Trade Route, Rimma Trade Route) , 1 week old for other regions in the core off the main routes,  1 month old for the outer rim. And Good Luck for wildspace or the Unknown regions; when available it will be at LEAST a year old, and you probably will have to buy it from some shifty-looking alien in a bar rather than at the spaceport. Why, hello, pretty adventure hook!  :Small Amused:  

That's how hyperspace routes can be secret;  although you can see all the stars from any point in the galaxy by simply looking up,  actually having a hyperspace route requires up-to-date scouting and pathfinding by hyperdrive ships.   There's no reason you have to broadcast your findings on the Holonet to the entire galaxy.    So if you kept some of those routes secret you might, say, have a "back door" to the most heavily defended planet in the galaxy , taking the defenders completely by surprise.  Or you might have a route to some star system no one else had access to, where you could stash supplies or even an entire fleet, if you so chose.  

That's all in the old Legends continuity, of course, but I don't see why it would change in nucanon.   But 'secret hyperspace routes' are entirely plausible; certainly more so than laser swords and mystic monks.  

This is also, incidentally, a reason for the different travel times, in the source books, hyperdrives are rated anywhere from .5 (go anywhere in the galaxy on a charted route in hardly any time at all) to class 15 (better have coldsleep facilities on the ship ; it will be months or even years). 

Everything above class 1 is experimental , used in military ships or pirates. Very, very fast but also very, very finicky and temperamental.  Easy to break, requiring constant maintenance. That's the cost of bleeding edge technology, but absolutely necessary for a smuggler or anyone else who wants to live outside the law by being faster than the authorities.  

class 1 is the best hyperdrive you can get that  is stable, but very expensive, which is why class 2 or 3 are more common.   Class 4-6 are older tech. Class 8-15 are backup hyperdrives , which take forever but it's still better than being stranded in the middle of space light years from anywhere. 

All quite well-thought out and reasonable, I think.  


Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## dancrilis

> That said, between the 14-year old queens and the padawans going into battle, does nayone know what the age of majority is in the Republic?


It varies seemingly.




> Is he going to let it behind (most likely) and if so, will he have to go through whatever process is required to get a new one.


I'm not saying that there is an entire episode dedicated to understanding whether he should fill out Jedi Requisition Form 17zi (loss of lightsaber) or Jedi Requisition Form 17zj (stolen lightsaber) which goes into the dark an murky depths of understanding if capture leading to loss of equipment counts as that equipment being stolen by the capturing forces - but I am not saying that there isn't such an episode either.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

I mean, Anakin and Obi Wan were just given spares in Geonosis, it's probably fine.

I doubt there's an age of majority, it would vary too much species to species.

----------


## Fyraltari

> You could have a hyperspace route from Coruscant to Tatooine, clear in the outer rim, and travel to the planet might take days or weeks.   But you could have another star 5 light years from Tatooine for which no route is charted;  so despite being a stellar neighbor, you can't reach it in a human life time at sublight speeds.


Which is why Han, Chewbacca and Leia all died of thirst aboard the _Falcon_ who only reached Bespin a few thousand years after leaving Hoth and nobody could understand what "Empire" these two insane, antediluvian droids were babbling about.
 :Small Tongue: 




> So the "Galactic Empire" is really a collection of little bubbles connected by trade routes surrounded by vast depths which are unexplored.


I mean that'd be true even if every inhabitable planet in the galaxy were settled and there wer instantaneaous travel from anywhere to anywhere. Space be big.




> Despite the fact that you can see all the stars in the galaxy from an observatory on Coruscant, this doesn't mean you can create hyperspace routes merely from those observations. That's because the observations you are making are literally millions of years old.  If you tried to pilot a starship based solely on those observations, you might find an unpleasant surprise when you discover that a gas giant or even a star isn't in the same place as it was hundreds of millions of years ago.


It really isn't hard to compute where those stars currently are though. It's not like theor motion is particularly complex.




> Thus, the hyperspace routes require constant updating, both by those ships who travel the route and by the Hyperspace Navigator's Guild, whose job it is both to update the existing lanes and to chart new ones.  You can purchase trade route data from the space ministry for 150 credits; data is 1 day old for the major trade routes (Corellian Run, Corellian Trade Spine, Hydian Way, Perlemian Trade Route, Rimma Trade Route) , 1 week old for other regions in the core off the main routes,  1 month old for the outer rim. And Good Luck for wildspace or the Unknown regions; when available it will be at LEAST a year old, and you probably will have to buy it from some shifty-looking alien in a bar rather than at the spaceport. Why, hello, pretty adventure hook!


But how was that information collected in the first place ? If you need to go there to get it and you need it to get there? Was the Galaxy Far Far Away visited by [url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(comics)Wake[/url]?I can't tell if that would explain the wide spread of humans or just raise more questions.




> That's how hyperspace routes can be secret;  although you can see all the stars from any point in the galaxy by simply looking up,  actually having a hyperspace route requires up-to-date scouting and pathfinding by hyperdrive ships.   There's no reason you have to broadcast your findings on the Holonet to the entire galaxy.    So if you kept some of those routes secret you might, say, have a "back door" to the most heavily defended planet in the galaxy , taking the defenders completely by surprise.  Or you might have a route to some star system no one else had access to, where you could stash supplies or even an entire fleet, if you so chose.


I mean, a fast path from Coruscant to the Outer Rim sounds like it would do wonders for trade and colonization so it'd be an itter waste to keep a thing like that but, then again it's true that the Galactix Civilization is just kind of terrible when it comes to sensible ise of resources and technology.




> That's all in the old Legends continuity, of course, but I don't see why it would change in nucanon.   But 'secret hyperspace routes' are entirely plausible; certainly more so than laser swords and mystic monks.


_Touché_ ; )  




> It varies seemingly.


I don't know what's weirder, that there's a wiki page for this or that I am surprised that there's a wiki page for this.






> I mean, Anakin and Obi Wan were just given spares in Geonosis, it's probably fine.


Obviously a life-or-death situation is not time to be picky but givenhow personal and symbolically important to the Order the weapon is, there's at least gotta be some special ceremony for getting one.

----------


## Mechalich

> It really isn't hard to compute where those stars currently are though. It's not like theor motion is particularly complex.


Their motion is actually quite complex, since the motion of stars throughout the galaxy is an n-body gravitational problem where n = 100,000,000,000 just in stars (not counting brown dwarfs, black holes, rogue planets, neutron stars, large gas clouds, and other weird stuff). Now, in realspace you don't really need a whole lot of precision because space is mostly empty, but hyperspace is different and presumably much more compact (which is why you can get from point a to point b much faster), so pinpoint accuracy matters.




> But how was that information collected in the first place ? If you need to go there to get it and you need it to get there? Was the Galaxy Far Far Away visited by [url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(comics)Wake[/url]?I can't tell if that would explain the wide spread of humans or just raise more questions.


The earliest routes through hyperspace were charted by the Rakata, using the Force, and also by the Gree, using spatial manipulating technologies that no one else has, and others. The galactic civilization in Star Wars, at least in Legends, is very much a successor state to an earlier set of civs that were much more Force dependent than the current one. 

The wide spread of humans is explained by their status as the principle Rakata slave species, which gave them a step up on other species following the downfall of the Rakata Infinite Empire.

Note that the major hyperspace routes are sustained and stabilized through constant holonet updates. The HoloNet is the largest civic work in the galaxy and while it allows interstellar real time communication its primary purpose is to allow interstellar real time navigational updates to every ship in the galaxy. The HoloNet relies on millions of transceivers _suspended in hyperspace_. Maintaining it was incredible expensive and, prior to the creation of a military, might have been the #1 line item in the Republic's budget.




> I mean, a fast path from Coruscant to the Outer Rim sounds like it would do wonders for trade and colonization so it'd be an itter waste to keep a thing like that but, then again it's true that the Galactix Civilization is just kind of terrible when it comes to sensible ise of resources and technology.


The functional comparison here is to the age of sail. A hyperspace 'route' isn't like a highway, its more like a set of instructions in the fashion of a navigational rutter (just one comprised of exceedingly complex calculations). Various nations and trading companies hoarded this knowledge because it represented was an economic and strategic asset of incredible importance.

And yeah, galactic civilization is kind of terrible, but it's important to recall that it's not modeled on 21st century of even 20th century standards, but more like late 19th century. It's pretty middle of the road in that comparative zone.

----------


## pendell

> Which is why Han, Chewbacca and Leia all died of thirst aboard the _Falcon_ who only reached Bespin a few thousand years after leaving Hoth and nobody could understand what "Empire" these two insane, antediluvian droids were babbling about.


By Oldcanon, the ship had a  backup hyperdrive . The trip was NOT made at sublight speed.  I mentioned these in my previous post. 

EDIT: Okay, I should acknowledge that this is Legends lampshading the events of ESB; George Lucas himself never bothered to explain why Han and Leia were able to travel from Hoth to Bespin without a functioning hyperdrive. He was making a myth, not science fiction. Still, so far as I'm concerned the oldcanon explanation will do until something better comes along. 




> It really isn't hard to compute where those stars currently are though. It's not like theor motion is particularly complex.


Stars aren't the only thing you have to worry about though.  Even in A New Hope Han Solo mentioned meteor showers.  Even in our galaxy, Dark Matter comprises 85% of the total matter in it.  

As I said, stellar observation isn't enough to account for all the various stellar bodies and their gravitational influences, including those that don't just show up on a telescope.  





> But how was that information collected in the first place ? If you need to go there to get it and you need it to get there? Was the Galaxy Far Far Away visited by [url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(comics)Wake[/url]?I can't tell if that would explain the wide spread of humans or just raise more questions.



By old canon, navigators went out on computed courses and some of them came back.  That's what the  Navigators Guild  is for.  Bit by bit and little by little, they found out what worked and what didn't, resulting in the major trade lanes that characterize the GFFA by the time of the movies.  

If "travelling hyperspace ain't like dusting crops", then travelling a completely uncharted route as a trailblazer is to Han's jump in ANH what piloting a space shuttle is to riding a skateboard. 

If it were me, I'd use the very same probe droids shown at the start of ESB;  fire a bunch of them off on candidate routes, make note of which ones come back.  Read their data.  Proceed to the end of each successful point, fire off a new round of probes, see which ones come back, collect more data, rinse and repeat. It'd be very expensive in terms of probes, but  cheaper than sending out pilots of the skill and caliber needed for this kind of work. 

 Actually, that might make a good story in either canon; have a criminal or smuggler convicted of some idiotic crime but nonetheless one of the best navigators in the galaxy.  So instead of putting them to work in the Kessel mines or flushing them out the airlock, they're put in charge of one of these scout craft, with the promise of a full pardon if they come back alive.  That'd do to start the story. What they found on the other end of the candidate route .. and whether they would ever return to the Republic/Empire ... would be the subject of the rest of the story. 

EDIT: I see Mechalich's post.  This is part of moving canon; the story of the Guild predates the writing of the Rakata into it. Nonetheless, the basic points and premise of the story stand; just because the earliest routes were charted by the Rakata doesn't mean there wasn't work for the Navigator's Guild to improve and expand on, no more than the maps made by Phoenician sailors of the Mediterranean would be sufficient for Henry the Navigator's explorers.  

The  Infinite Empire  and the  Galactic Republic  occupy overlapping but not identical space, and as said just because the space is colored on the map doesn't mean every millmeter of it is occupied. Again, the actual occupied space are tiny bubbles in a vast void.  Even those maps that were well-charted major trade routes would still require updating over the tens of thousands of years between the Infinite Empire and 0BY. 

Hyperspace routes come into play frequently in the SW universe. For instance, the plot of KOTOR is to find the various maps which will lead the player to the  Lehon System ,  a planet unreachable and hidden until someone collects all  the various maps together and compiles them to find a route to the planet and the Definitely Final Dungeon there. 

During Ep. III, the assault on Coruscant was possible because Sidious leaked the details of a secret hyperspace route to the Seperatists, allowing them to bypass the major defense fleets on the known routes from Separatist space and take the Home Defense fleet  by complete surprise .  He also ordered a number of mapping expeditions into the deep core which allowed him to construct hidden bases which would prove critical to the events both of the Legends Dark Empire and the Sequel Trilogy.  

It seems that the Sith kept their own list of hyperspace routes which they didn't see fit to share with the rest of the galaxy, and they only added to that knowledge when they were running the galaxy. As I thought,  they used probe droids  , probably not only because of the risks but because droids can be mem-wiped afterwards and re-used, with no fear that they would divulge secrets when captured.  We know from ESB that probe droids were programmed to self-destruct if crippled in any event.  

It implies that if someone _could_ capture a Sith infiltrator intact, the contents of the navicomputer would be worth more than the entire value of the rest of the ship, even if the cargo hold was packed solid with spice. 


Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Mechalich

> EDIT: I see Mechalich's post.  This is part of moving canon; the story of the Guild predates the writing of the Rakata into it. Nonetheless, the basic points and premise of the story stand; just because the earliest routes were charted by the Rakata doesn't mean there wasn't work for the Navigator's Guild to improve and expand on, no more than the maps made by Mediterranean sailors would be sufficient for Henry the Navigator's sailors.


Wasn't trying to override the point. The Rakata explanation addresses the chicken-and-egg problem. The answer to the question of 'how did the Republic figure out hyperspace navigation in the first place?' is that they didn't they copied off of someone else who used a non-technological method. But yes, once started they had to chart out the hyperlanes one star at a time.

The Essential Atlas actually goes into charting new routes in some detail. It's actually a very boring and repetitive process. Basically you park a ship somewhere, string out your sensors and take in a lot of data for a whole day or more, then you calculate out a short jump of 1 light year or less through empty space. This process repeats until you have a string of jumps from one system to the next. This can then be braided together into a continuous route of several light years. Then you go back and run that route until you've stabilized it into a single dataset. They you can start tying multiple star systems together.

So most hyperlanes are actually joined assemblies of large numbers of other, smaller hyperlanes. The Atlas diagrams the Hydian Way (which like other major hyperlanes got imported into the Disney canon), in this fashion.




> It seems that the Sith kept their own list of hyperspace routes which they didn't see fit to share with the rest of the galaxy, and they only added to that knowledge when they were running the galaxy. As I thought, they used probe droids , probably not only because of the risks but because droids can be mem-wiped afterwards and re-used, with no fear that they would divulge secrets when captured. We know from ESB that probe droids were programmed to self-destruct if crippled in any event.


Lots of groups kept secret routes. The critical reason the Republic and Separatists both want to ally with the Hutts so badly in the initial TCW film isn't because they expect the Hutts to actually doing any fighting on their behalf, but because the Hutts have a secret hyperlane network they've used for smuggling and piracy for centuries which will allow fleets to move past the bottlenecks along the major hyperlanes.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 3, Episode 19: Counter-attack*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Anakin contacts R2 and tells him to pick up Kenobi and then meet up with them at the pipeline exit and then leave. Kenobi and his group are climbing ventilation shafts? I think? to get to the landing pad. He gives R2 the exact same order and both wonder if the other will be on-time.  Obi-Wan's party end up meeting a probe droid. these are Separatists, now? The Separatists also use mouse droids apparently. Thought these were more Republic/Imperial things, but alright. Piel destroys the droid but it somehow managed to trigger security doors which isolate the party into little sub-groups. And bisect a redshirt. The Jedi can cut trhough, of course, but it's gonna slow them down.

Meanwhile the warden is told that Count Dooku wants to talk to him. "Let's not keep him waiting. -He's already waiting, sir. -*Horrified look*" I mean, that's how phones work. Dooku's hologram turns to face the warden, who is called Commander Sobek* and paces around in the room. I really wonder what that looks like at Dooku's end. Apparently somebody told Dooku there was a problem. (Damn those robot snitches!) Sobek says the situation is under control. because of the importance of those data, Dooku wonders if he should get involved personnally, but ultimately lets Sobek handle it. the warden then throttles his tactical droid and tell him to warn him in advance next time Dooku calls them by surprise... Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you, Sobek?

While Anakin ganks another probe, Tarkin professes admiration for the Citadel and its effectiveness. Anakin thinks Tarkin has a point while Ahsoka is shocked. Anakin orders her to lead while he stays behind to protect their flank (wouldn't that be their rear?) since Obi-Wan isn't there. I don't remember Obi-wan doing that particularly, but okay. We cut to Windu and Plo Koon who have received a coded transmission explaining the split-up and there plan. They say that if that doesn't work, they'll have to send an entire fleet to get them out. Okay, this is dumb. Why would Kenobi or skywalker feel the need to tell the Council all that? They can't help! And sending a transmission like that would risk giving their position away to the ennemy! I get that this scene is here to give us some exposition with a handy hologram, but I feel like they could have done that earlier when they told R2 about it. Meanwhile Tarkin tells a nonplussed Rex that he doesn't trust ina child's ability to lead. And they find a dead end.

R2 and his droids land and are greeted by Sobek's droid. That droid computes a 75% chance R2 is working for the Republic and has him arrested. By the droids who came out of the shuttle with him. You know, I'm really starting to think somebody is stealing from the CIS's R&D budget. One of the reprogrammed B1s even take advantage of the situation to hit R2 a couple times. While they get away, Sobek lays his trap around the shuttle. Back with Anakin's crew, they are attacked by B2 plus some commando droids using anti-blaster shields they can poke their own blasters through. Neat design. Anakin berates Ahsoka for not blowing up the wall, stating that Master Plo would have briefed her on that if he had truly assigned her on the mission. Okay, but you knew that was bull, so maybe you should have told her yourself, rather than wait for a battle to break out? Ahsoka blows up the wall and spares two bombs to take out the droids.

Kenobi and crew arrive at the shuttle but the lack of touchy astromechs make them suspect a trap. they still fall for it. Meanwhile, Skywalker and his team get inside a pipeline (and so must be careful not to start a fire because it's funnelling fuel, I guess?, from somewhere?) a vertical pipeline they have to climb through. Sobek has Obi-Wan and crew brought to him. Kenobi disses him on his voice. Sobek demands Piel gives him his half of the intel (how does he know about that?). When Piel refuses, Sobek shoots a redshirt. However he loses interest once he's told the other group has been found too. So he has them taken to interrogation. Pretty sure Piel and Kenobi could take out wo battle droids with their hands tied behind their backs, but okay (I swear, there isn't even one behind the prisoners). R2, hacking the security systems, learns about that, and the B1s are kind enough to repeat everything he beeps so we know that, so he decides to free them. By just walking to the guards and saying "We'll handle it from here." The bestest prison in the galaxy, everyone!

Okay, Ahsoka climbing the barriers around the metal ladder rather than the ladder itself like some kind of space-monkey is way too precious. Tarkin starts whining and says he doesn't trust Kenobi's capacity. "You lack faith in the Jedi?" asks an undisturbed Anakin. Tarkin explains that he thinks their code prevents them from doing whatever it taakes to win. Skywalker is all like "oh, you're a space-fascist too? UwU." I think this is the beginning of an ugly friendship. They get to the rendezvous-point but, of course there's no shuttle nor any ally there. Lots of droids though. Anakin throws a bomb in the fuel line and decides to get to Obi-Wan's position. Meanwhile Sobek is told his prisoners... absconded again and that Dooku wants to talk to him. He tells his dorids to tell Dooku he's unreachable and mobilizes towards the airfield since they're bound to go there, eventually.

Obi-Wan and his posse try to bluff their way onboard the shuttle but the tactical droid warns the guards not to let them come aboard. abatlle starts and the droids are using turrets that are encircling the area, so the republicans aren't in a good spot. Anakin and his gang join up. Tarkin wants to rush their way into the shuttle while Kenobi thinks they should deal with the turrets before. The argument is interrupted by droids on jetbike and the battle descends into chaos. Anakin and Piel get on a jetbike and later crashes (very noticeable CGI failure with the way Piel's hair doesn't react all). A commando droid take over a turret and destroys the shuttle... along with Echo. Well,  that explains his look in the _Bad Batch_ trailer. Kenobi orders a retreat. As they leave they request the Council for a rescue. In the meantime they are going to have to hide in and traverse the especially inhospitable terrain surrounding the Citadel (it's part of the defenses, a bit like how the gulags didn't need big walls, because the camps themselves were less deadly than the Siberia around).

*Cause he's a reptile! Geddit? Huh.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Another good episode. It's got a good pace and the action is varied enough. Not much happened in it strictly speaking but it doesn't drag on. Sobek is both surprisingly competent and strikingly dumb. Like he manages to predict their moves but then he goes to make some really idiotic mistakes. I'm not sure what that tells about the intellect of our heroes. Tarkin and Anakin making fun (while Ahsoka disapproves) seems like it's going to be the main plot point of this arc really. Which is good, it makes sense that these two met before Vader. Tarkin whining and second-guessing Kenobi is a bit funny but very appropriate character-wise. Turns out Mr. "Order and Discipline" doesn't like it when he is the one who's got to obey, eh? Colour me unsurprised. Also I like that the man who would go on to spearhead the Death Star consistently wants to implement the most brutish, forward, casualty-heavy tactic. Some nice subtle characterization.


Next up: *Citadel Rescue*

----------


## Keltest

Empire aside, Anakin and tarkin actually have a point. Their existence as a religious order not directly integrated into the main government really makes the Jedi terrible candidates for military leadership. Ideals aside, their priorities are not determined by the government, so there's an inherent conflict of interest there.

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## Fyraltari

> Empire aside, Anakin and tarkin actually have a point. Their existence as a religious order not directly integrated into the main government really makes the Jedi terrible candidates for military leadership. Ideals aside, their priorities are not determined by the government, so there's an inherent conflict of interest there.


Right, but that isn't at all what they mean.

----------


## Mechalich

The Jedi Code ought to preclude devotion to extreme military doctrines along the lines of total war, which would potentially be an impediment to at least the usage of certain tactics (such as the destruction of the supporting civilian industrial base of the enemy). Perhaps ironically, because the Separatist forces are primarily droids, this limitation is heavily mitigated during the Clone Wars. 

That said, the Jedi did refrain from certain actions during the Clone Wars that the Separatists did not hesitate to use, especially biological weapons. Tarkin, famously, was a major proponent of the use of mass bombardment of planetary targets - one of the reasons Star Destroyers were so massive was specifically to support the bombardment role, and from a strict tactical perspective the utility of the Death Star was that it could punch bombardment through a planetary shield (we see precisely this method used when Tarkin fires on Scarif at the conclusion of Rogue One). 

In Legends, both sides deployed bombardment as a Clone Wars tactic, including extreme Base Delta Zero bombardments that killed everything on the surface of a planet (in terms of population this does exactly the same amount of damage as blowing up the planet using the Death Star, it just takes longer). In Legends the Separatists conducted a Base Delta Zero against the ecumenopolis of Humbarine late in the Clone Wars, killing hundreds of billions in a single attack.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The Jedi Code ought to preclude devotion to extreme military doctrines along the lines of total war, which would potentially be an impediment to at least the usage of certain tactics (such as the destruction of the supporting civilian industrial base of the enemy). Perhaps ironically, because the Separatist forces are primarily droids, this limitation is heavily mitigated during the Clone Wars. 
> 
> That said, the Jedi did refrain from certain actions during the Clone Wars that the Separatists did not hesitate to use, especially biological weapons.


You say that like it's a bad thing.

----------


## Keltest

> You say that like it's a bad thing.


With the jedi in particular, their code restricts them a few steps beyond just "don't commit war crimes against civilians" is the thing.

I think the zillo beast is the best example.

----------


## Kornaki

Biological weapons? Against.... A droid army?  I don't really see the point.

----------


## Mechalich

> Biological weapons? Against.... A droid army?  I don't really see the point.


The Separatists were not entirely droid forces by any means, and their civilians were organic. The Empire successfully unleashed a biological attack upon Geonosis after the Clone Wars and killed the entire planet (there's a whole plot arc in Rebels about this).




> With the jedi in particular, their code restricts them a few steps beyond just "don't commit war crimes against civilians" is the thing.


Ostensibly the Jedi Order should only be fighting in 'just war' one where they can clearly identify a side affiliated with the light versus one affiliated with the dark. An evil empire run by Sith, for instance, is pretty clearly a dark side based foe that it's okay for the Jedi to throw down with. other conflicts are more nebulous and it's not clear that the Jedi order should necessarily get involved at all. In Legends, at least, the Order stood aside from numerous internal political squabbles - such as the _seventeen_ times Coruscant and Alsakan went to war over who got to be the capital - because they believed (probably correctly) that there was no righteous option. 

And, as a purely political matter, the choice of thousands of systems to secede from the Republic and the Republic's effort to stop them from doing so is not a conflict the Jedi Order should be involved with. In a very real sense Palaptine, by goading the Jedi into involvement in the first place, has already won from the moment the first sabers are swung on Geonosis. TCW, to its very great credit, absolutely does address the moral degeneration that afflicts the Jedi by being part of this conflict, with the Citadel arc being an early and mild example thereof. At the same time TCW, and essentially every other piece of Clone Wars material ever in both continuities, goes to great lengths to have the Separatists _kick all the puppies_ as a means of justifying Jedi involvement.

----------


## pendell

I have to wonder whether any of those total destruction planetary bombardments will be shown in the show.  It sounds like something someone like Tarkin would order when the Jedi weren't around. But you never know. Maybe a completely robotic factory world would be considered a legitimate target by the Jedi council.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

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## Sapphire Guard

The Separatists may not be entirely robotic, but the bulk of their forces are, so being indiscriminate in these circumstances has no tactical benefit.

The Separatists are being run by a Sith Lord, so if that's your metric for a just war it's been met. As soon as Obi Wan finds the Clone army on Kamino the Jedi have no choice but to go to war, because his only options are to inform the Senate or not inform the Senate, both of which are inherently taking sides in the war. They can try to stay neutral if they wish, but it's going to go about as well as it did for Belgium.

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## pendell

> The Separatists are being run by a Sith Lord, so if that's your metric for a just war it's been met. As soon as Obi Wan finds the Clone army on Kamino the Jedi have no choice but to go to war, because his only options are to inform the Senate or not inform the Senate, both of which are inherently taking sides in the war. They can try to stay neutral if they wish, but it's going to go about as well as it did for Belgium.


The three components of  Jus Ad Bellum  Are: 
1) Legitimate authority.  
2) Public declaration. 
3) Just Cause. 


1 and 3 are easily met.   The Republic is a legitimate governing body, perhaps the only legitimate galactic government, at the time of the clone wars. As for the cause, they are fighting against an attempt to resist their authority by armed force. As in the United States, there appears to be no provision for secession from the Republic written into their law, so any attempt to withdraw from the Republic is, ipso facto, an illegitimate act of rebellion which the lawful civil authorities are properly empowered to subdue.  

2) Is a bit of a technicality, but since the Separatists publicly declared their independence and moreover attempted to murder several members of the lawful authorities (namely, Anakin and Padme, a Jedi Padawan and a serving senator) in an arena on Geonosis, I'm willing to say that the Separatists started the war by their actions.  

For that matter, this is a civil war, not a war between two legitimate states, so the rules about formal declaration are a bit dicey.   Governments are allowed to fight rebellions on their own territory without declaring war or, indeed, recognizing that the other side is a legitimate government against whom one can declare war in the first place.  That's what they're fighting the war about, after all. 

Thus, the war waged by the Republic against the Separatists is a just war. The Defense Rests. 

Ironically, one could argue that the later Rebellion against the Empire is an 'unjust' war, by the strict provisions of the rules, since the Empire is the legitimate successor to the Republic, and thus the Rebellion fails under category 1)  : Legitimate authority.  There is no provision for a minority of senators to overthrow the duly appointed Emperor, appointed by a veto-proof majority of the Senate and, presumably, the people they represent.  Doesn't matter that he's a murderer and a space fascist. The precedent is the early Roman Emperors, who were just as bad but were still the lawful authorities, against whom rebellion was illegitimate. 

This points to a flaw in just war theory in that there is no provision for revolution built into it. The rules are inherited from the days of Feudalism, and allow barons or dukes or what not to wage war (since they are themselves 'legitimate authorities')  but not for ordinary people, commoners.  Methinks those rules require a bit of re-thinking because as written they give too much weight to existing governments, making it difficult to revolt even when it is otherwise warranted. In the GFFA , it might mean people signing up for the Imperial Navy because they think they're defending civilization from barbarians, aliens, and all other enemies of law, when in fact the Empire is a greater threat to peace, liberty , and safety than all the pirates in the galaxy put together. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Keltest

> The three components of  Jus Ad Bellum  Are: 
> 1) Legitimate authority.  
> 2) Public declaration. 
> 3) Just Cause. 
> 
> 
> 1 and 3 are easily met.   The Republic is a legitimate governing body, perhaps the only legitimate galactic government, at the time of the clone wars. As for the cause, they are fighting against an attempt to resist their authority by armed force. As in the United States, there appears to be no provision for secession from the Republic written into their law, so any attempt to withdraw from the Republic is, ipso facto, an illegitimate act of rebellion which the lawful civil authorities are properly empowered to subdue.  
> 
> 2) Is a bit of a technicality, but since the Separatists publicly declared their independence and moreover attempted to murder several members of the lawful authorities (namely, Anakin and Padme, a Jedi Padawan and a serving senator) in an arena on Geonosis, I'm willing to say that the Separatists started the war by their actions.  
> ...


I would argue that the legitimacy of Palpatine's rule as Emperor is pretty dubious, since he declared himself emperor and enforced it through military might, rather than from any mandate from the people or other actual process. Thunderous Applause aside, nobody was actually asked about changing from a republic to a dictatorship, and though at that point its likely that Palpatine could have gotten himself voted in as Emperor if he really cared, he didnt actually do so.

I have nothing to say about the justness of any given war, fictional or otherwise, but i will gladly debate the legitimacy of the Empire as a government.

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## pendell

> I would argue that the legitimacy of Palpatine's rule as Emperor is pretty dubious, since he declared himself emperor and enforced it through military might, rather than from any mandate from the people or other actual process. Thunderous Applause aside, nobody was actually asked about changing from a republic to a dictatorship ...


The technical term for this is "passed by Acclamation".  As Discussed . Also see  here .  

So I think you're misinterpreting the scene. Supreme Chancellor Palpatine proposes legislation (reorganization into the Empire) which is then passed unanimously by acclamation. No need for debate or rules of procedure because the Senate is entirely on board with the action without dissent. As seen in the novelization,  Senator Amidala expressly encourages Bail Organa to vote for this as well, because dissenting openly would draw very unwanted attention from the security services.  

What we're seeing is a coup d'etat carried out under color of law.  Because there are no checks and balances on the Senate's power, and because the Chancellor has an absolutely veto-proof supermajority voting bloc (as seen in the novelization), the establishment of the Empire is legal in the technical sense. Thus, the Empire is the legal and legitimate government, at least in law. 

I would argue that the Empire forfeited its claim to legitimacy when it murdered an entire planet for no other reason than as a raw demonstration of its power. So far as Tarkin knew, Leia had divulged the location of the rebel base when threatened with the destruction of Alderaan but did it _anyway_ , because Dantooine was "too remote to make an effective demonstration".  

Of course, the Empire's lawyers would point out that there is no provision in law for the overthrow of a government just because one of its functionaries turned out to be a psychopathic murderer.  But this is part of the story of the fall of the Republic;  it is such a broken system that Palpatine is able to leverage its flaws and contradictions against it, allowing him to not only assume supreme power , but to do so legally and with impunity.  

It's a sad state of affairs when the only right course is to overthrow the legal framework because it has deteriorated to such an extent as to enforce the rule of a space fascist and enable his atrocities rather than prevent them, but that is precisely why the Rebellion is necessary. It is, in theory, illegal and unjustified, but in practice that only demonstrates that the theory has some fundamental flaws. 

ETA: Ironically, this is exactly the same logic that the Separatists would probably use to justify their secession from the Republic, ruled as it was by a Dark Lord of the Sith who could not be overthrown by the normal course of legal action. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Aeson

> 2) Is a bit of a technicality, but since the  Separatists publicly declared their independence and moreover attempted  to murder several members of the lawful authorities (namely, Anakin and  Padme, a Jedi Padawan and a serving senator) in an arena on Geonosis,  I'm willing to say that the Separatists started the war by their  actions.


While I agree that the Geonosian response was inappropriate, I do not  believe that Anakin's status as a Jedi Padawan and Padme's status as a  serving Republic Senator can reasonably be considered a legitimate legal  shield against facing consequences for their actions on Geonosis.  Anakin was expressly instructed to remain on Tatooine by the Jedi  Council while in direct communication with them; Padme may be a serving  Republic Senator, but she's on a leave of absence and under Jedi  protection while the investigation into the assassination attempts  continues, consulted neither the Senate nor the Chancellor nor even the  government of the planet or sector which she represents before deciding  to go to Geonosis to rescue Obi-Wan, and elects to pursue a rather  undiplomatic and provocative solution to Obi-Wan's imprisonment.

Obi-Wan Kenobi would probably be a better example, seeing as he went to  Geonosis in pursuit of a person of interest to the investigation into  the attempted assassination of Senator Amidala after having received  explicit authorization from a higher authority to bring that person into  custody and was attacked without apparent provocation while making a  report to that higher authority. That said, as he is arguably no longer  in active pursuit of Jango Fett when he lands on Geonosis, his failure  to notify Geonosian authorities of his presence and intentions prior to  landing and entering the hive could put him on somewhat shaky grounds,  legally speaking.

I would further comment that, given the timing of events within the  movie, the Jedi infiltration of the Arena and activation of the clone  army were most likely in response to Obi-Wan's imprisonment and imminent  execution, not Anakin's or Padme's. The Geonosians trying to put  Senator Amidala to death by arena might be a great propaganda piece for  the Republic to use in justifying the war to the people, but it occurs  too close to the start of the battle to reasonably be construed as the  provocation which set the Jedi strike group and the clone army into  motion.

----------


## Keltest

> While I agree that the Geonosian response was inappropriate, I do not  believe that Anakin's status as a Jedi Padawan and Padme's status as a  serving Republic Senator can reasonably be considered a legitimate legal  shield against facing consequences for their actions on Geonosis.  Anakin was expressly instructed to remain on Tatooine by the Jedi  Council while in direct communication with them; Padme may be a serving  Republic Senator, but she's on a leave of absence and under Jedi  protection while the investigation into the assassination attempts  continues, consulted neither the Senate nor the Chancellor nor even the  government of the planet or sector which she represents before deciding  to go to Geonosis to rescue Obi-Wan, and elects to pursue a rather  undiplomatic and provocative solution to Obi-Wan's imprisonment.
> 
> Obi-Wan Kenobi would probably be a better example, seeing as he went to  Geonosis in pursuit of a person of interest to the investigation into  the attempted assassination of Senator Amidala after having received  explicit authorization from a higher authority to bring that person into  custody and was attacked without apparent provocation while making a  report to that higher authority. That said, as he is arguably no longer  in active pursuit of Jango Fett when he lands on Geonosis, his failure  to notify Geonosian authorities of his presence and intentions prior to  landing and entering the hive could put him on somewhat shaky grounds,  legally speaking.
> 
> I would further comment that, given the timing of events within the  movie, the Jedi infiltration of the Arena and activation of the clone  army were most likely in response to Obi-Wan's imprisonment and imminent  execution, not Anakin's or Padme's. The Geonosians trying to put  Senator Amidala to death by arena might be a great propaganda piece for  the Republic to use in justifying the war to the people, but it occurs  too close to the start of the battle to reasonably be construed as the  provocation which set the Jedi strike group and the clone army into  motion.


While their participation in the battle was prompted by Kenobi's capture, their participation in the subsequent war was almost certainly justified in part by the Separatist's attacks on legitimate government officials and investigators.

Also, keep in mind that the Jedi have fairly broad authority to act in the name of the Republic. If Obi-wan thinks the Geonocians are complicit (not unreasonable if Jango landed there) then he probably genuinely doesnt need to hail their official government and get permission to investigate, and their subsequent attempted execution is wrongdoing in and of itself.

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## pendell

Great post. 




> Obi-Wan Kenobi would probably be a better example, seeing as he went to  Geonosis in pursuit of a person of interest to the investigation into  the attempted assassination of Senator Amidala after having received  explicit authorization from a higher authority to bring that person into  custody and was attacked without apparent provocation while making a  report to that higher authority. That said, as he is arguably no longer  in active pursuit of Jango Fett when he lands on Geonosis, his failure  to notify Geonosian authorities of his presence and intentions prior to  landing and entering the hive could put him on somewhat shaky grounds,  legally speaking.


I would argue that he had reason to believe, at this point, that the Geonosian authorities were complicit in Jango Fett's actions and therefore was under no obligation to notify them of his actions or presence, no more than a detective is required to notify the subject of a surveillance activity that a stakeout is planned.  So I think he is on legally sound footing. He pursued the subject of an investigation to Geonosis, one whom he was authorized to arrest, and that suspect had fired on him.  Then the suspect landed on the planet with which he is apparently on friendly terms.  It would be entirely reasonable for an officer with the Jedi's sweeping mandate to land and try to ascertain local conditions rather than immediately pursue the suspect.  

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Fyraltari

I'm sorry, but the CIS declaring independence not being legitimate while Palpatine being hailed Emperor is seems contradictory to me. Pretty sure both are equally anticonstitutional.

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## dancrilis

> I'm sorry, but the CIS declaring independence not being legitimate while Palpatine being hailed Emperor is seems contradictory to me. Pretty sure both are equally anticonstitutional.


One would need a copy of the document but I suspect that Palpatine (and possibly Sith before him over centuries) got the constitution setup correctly to allow for this to occur.

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## pendell

> I'm sorry, but the CIS declaring independence not being legitimate while Palpatine being hailed Emperor is seems contradictory to me. Pretty sure both are equally anticonstitutional.


Does the Republic _have_ a written constitution?  I haven't seen one. So far as I can tell, the Senate's powers are absolute. There doesn't appear to be any check or balance on it at all.  If they wanted to grant the Separatists their independence, they could do that with a vote. If they want to make the chancellor  into an Emperor, they could do that as well.  They did the one and didn't do the other.  

In the United States, there's a specific procedure in our Constitution for amending or replacing it altogether; it requires either the consent of 2/3rds of both our house and senate at the federal level, OR 2/3rds of the state legislatures.  The Republic is simplified;  amending their form of government requires only a majority vote.  And it appears that , the way Lucas is telling the story, whatever minimum majority is necessary to effect the change Palpatine has. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Keltest

> I'm sorry, but the CIS declaring independence not being legitimate while Palpatine being hailed Emperor is seems contradictory to me. Pretty sure both are equally anticonstitutional.


Especially when you consider that Palpatine was elected in part through implicit threats of violence against the people who didnt vote for him. That delegitimizes the whole thing even if he could have genuinely gotten the motion passed.

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## Fyraltari

> One would need a copy of the document but I suspect that Palpatine (and possibly Sith before him over centuries) got the constitution setup correctly to allow for this to occur.


What for? If they win they're legitimate, if they lose they're not. They don't give a Sithspit about a legal document.



> Does the Republic _have_ a written constitution?  I haven't seen one. So far as I can tell, the Senate's powers are absolute. There doesn't appear to be any check or balance on it at all.  If they wanted to grant the Separatists their independence, they could do that with a vote. If they want to make the chancellor  into an Emperor, they could do that as well.  They did the one and didn't do the other.


If the Senate's power are absolute, then the Senate can't object to part of the Senate deciding to leave.

----------


## pendell

> Especially when you consider that Palpatine was elected in part through implicit threats of violence against the people who didnt vote for him. That delegitimizes the whole thing even if he could have genuinely gotten the motion passed.


That does raise a question: How many people voted because they were afraid, how many voted for him because they genuinely believed it was the right thing to do (Senator Jar Jar introducing the motion to give Palpatine emergency powers in the first place comes to mind) , how many did it because Palpatine bought them, and how many simply went along with the flow  ?  

I think it takes away from the story to imply that the ONLY reason Palpatine won the vote was because he threatened people. That was certainly part of it, but I'm not convinced that was the only trick he had up his sleeve. I think he was an accomplished politician who got where he was by pretending to be the Virtuous Hero of the Republic.    This is sometimes a weakness of the movies in that we see . from third person omniscient perspective, what he really is; but his dark secret side was something very, very few people in the GFFA ever saw. If you get your news from the Holonet, you're going to believe Palpatine is a hero and the Jedi are traitors to the Republic.  So I believe that the vast majority of those who voted him in as Emperor did so not out of fear but out of conviction. Palpatine was a master of propaganda and politics as well as of terror.

But  that will remain a matter of speculation, I think.  If you want to believe that it was primarily his extralegal violence and his shadowy collection of murderers and bounty hunters who put him over the top, there's precious little evidence in canon to gainsay the theory. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## dancrilis

> What for? If they win they're legitimate, if they lose they're not. They don't give a Sithspit about a legal document.


It is easier to win a legal maneuver when the law is on your side.

Had the people of the galaxy thought that Palpatine had seized power through illegal means it is possible that there would have been a lot more rebellion across the empire and at ever level of government.

To my knowledge nowhere in either canon has it been suggested that Palpatine broke the law by declaring The Empire.

----------


## Keltest

> That does raise a question: How many people voted because they were afraid, how many voted for him because they genuinely believed it was the right thing to do (Senator Jar Jar introducing the motion to give Palpatine emergency powers in the first place comes to mind) , how many did it because Palpatine bought them, and how many simply went along with the flow  ?  
> 
> I think it takes away from the story to imply that the ONLY reason Palpatine won the vote was because he threatened people. That was certainly part of it, but I'm not convinced that was the only trick he had up his sleeve. I think he was an accomplished politician who got where he was by pretending to be the Virtuous Hero of the Republic.    This is sometimes a weakness of the movies in that we see . from third person omniscient perspective, what he really is; but his dark secret side was something very, very few people in the GFFA ever saw. If you get your news from the Holonet, you're going to believe Palpatine is a hero and the Jedi are traitors to the Republic.  So I believe that the vast majority of those who voted him in as Emperor did so not out of fear but out of conviction. Palpatine was a master of propaganda and politics as well as of terror.
> 
> But  that will remain a matter of speculation, I think.  If you want to believe that it was primarily his extralegal violence and his shadowy collection of murderers and bounty hunters who put him over the top, there's precious little evidence in canon to gainsay the theory. 
> 
> Respectfully, 
> 
> Brian P.


I personally suspect that by that point he had ousted enough dissenting voices via the Clone Wars that he probably could have gotten the vote through without the implicit threat of violence. But that the threat was there anyway delegitimizes it.

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## dancrilis

> I personally suspect that by that point he had ousted enough dissenting voices via the Clone Wars that he probably could have gotten the vote through without the implicit threat of violence. But that the threat was there anyway delegitimizes it.


I am not sure that an implicit threat of violence does delegitimizes things.

For instance:
Palpatine: I would like to know I can rely on your vote in the upcoming declaration of Empire.
Senator 1: My planet is experiencing a famine - we need help.
Palpatine: All the more reason to vote for me quickly I can then move with haste to get your people what they need.
Senator 1: I'm not sure about this Empire stuff.
Palpatine: I fully understand but I will need to consolidate power afterwards and so resources will need to be allocated to areas I know are loyal - in case of problems, you understand?
Senator 1: I do and ah what about those seen as less loyal?
Palpatine: They and their issues will of course be dealt with as time allows.
Senator 1: Well I will of course support you - Happy Empire Day.
Palpatine: Happy Empire Day.

The implicit message is that if Senator 1 does not vote for Palpatine that their people will starve, and a secondard more subtle threat that the Senator themselves might be harmed - but I doubt there would be anything illegal about that conversation.

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## Sapphire Guard

The legal system of the Galactic Republic is going to be orders of magnitude more complex than anything we can understand, so legal argument isn't going to get us very far.

We don't know if Palps called a vote to declare himself Emperor or not. But he did exterminate the people that were most likely to oppose it, which is at least questionable.

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## Jasdoif

> Sobek is both surprisingly competent and strikingly dumb. Like he manages to predict their moves but then he goes to make some really idiotic mistakes.


I like to think am amused by the scenario that Sobek was assigned there primarily to redesign the entire security system into something centralized and thus more easily managable, as the original design was more worried about "fallen" Jedi persuading the entire complex from within than it was with external threats; and the decision to hold Piell came in the middle of it and involved Sobek telling Dooku "we shall double our efforts" at some point....which is why nothing really works together properly, Sobek is terrified whenever Dooku comes calling, and why Sobek appears to have a skillset good at reaching conclusions but bad at taking advantage of them.

Today's entry in "stuff that could've helped the episodes' flow, if minor details had hinted at it".

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## pendell

> The legal system of the Galactic Republic is going to be orders of magnitude more complex than anything we can understand, so legal argument isn't going to get us very far.
> 
> We don't know if Palps called a vote to declare himself Emperor or not. But he did exterminate the people that were most likely to oppose it, which is at least questionable.


Not to mention, he also disenfranchised a significant minority by tricking them into attempting secession. As a result, none of their representatives were present in the Senate when the motion to create the Empire was adopted. 

In the Ep. III novelization, Count Dooku noted that it wasn't a coincidence  so many of the Separatists were non-human factions such as the Techno Union or the Trade Federation. The intent was to create a human-dominated Empire in which the other peoples would have second-class citizenship at best. Not only did this plan mean these nonhuman actors would no longer have a voice in the Senate, it also gave the Republic the pretext it needed to destroy them, break them and confiscate their assets, under color of law. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Mechalich

> Does the Republic _have_ a written constitution?  I haven't seen one. So far as I can tell, the Senate's powers are absolute. There doesn't appear to be any check or balance on it at all.  If they wanted to grant the Separatists their independence, they could do that with a vote. If they want to make the chancellor  into an Emperor, they could do that as well.  They did the one and didn't do the other.


There was a Galactic Constitution, but it was extremely dated by the time of the Clone Wars, being either thousands of years old or 25,000 years old. In Legends, the Republic, at the time Palpatine turned it into an Empire, was governed by the Ruusan Reformations, passed by Tarsus Valorum at the conclusion of the New Sith Wars (the Russan Reformations were added into the Disney canon recently without any details, but generally the Legends versions remains more or less accurate in cases like this). 

The Ruusan Reformations were effectively a new constitution and the Republic from 1,000 BBY onward represented a clear legal break from the Republic that preceded it even though it retained the same name (this sort of thing happens to real-world countries all the time, which is why the United States is technically the oldest nation on Earth). The Ruusan Reformations were clearly written legislation, but we don't know a whole lot about what they actually stated, and most of what we do know is about how they affected the Jedi Order, not the Republic government. 

With regard to the issue of secession, the Legends novel _The Approaching Storm_ strongly implies that a planet could vote to secede if it wished at any time, since the entire plot is about preventing the citizens of the planet Ansion from voting to do exactly that




> We don't know if Palps called a vote to declare himself Emperor or not. But he did exterminate the people that were most likely to oppose it, which is at least questionable.


Actual, we do know the process. Palpatine passed a proclamation called the Proclamation of a New Order (Disney) or Declaration of a New Order (Legends). The Legends version has the full text and also called for the passage of a new constitution, the Imperial Charter.

The _veneer_ of legality behind Palpatine's conversion of the Republic into the Empire is actually quite strong, it's just that the preceding acts that led to this point involved a conspiracy of decades or even centuries of bribery, extortion, fraud, murder, and more to produce the supermajority necessary that allowed such actions to go unchallenged.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The Ruusan Reformations were effectively a new constitution and the Republic from 1,000 BBY onward represented a clear legal break from the Republic that preceded it even though it retained the same name (this sort of thing happens to real-world countries all the time, which is why the United States is technically the oldest nation on Earth).


State(s), not nation. Also, San Marino has them beaten by one hundred and seventy-six years, sorry.

----------


## Mechalich

> State(s), not nation. Also, San Marino has them beaten by one hundred and seventy-six years, sorry.


I like to think that the 'not counting puny microstates' caveat is built in.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I like to think that the 'not counting puny microstates' caveat is built in.


Sounds arbitrary.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

Wait, what disqualifies the UK?

You could say the act of Union makes a new entity, but by that logic, the modern US is very very different from the 13 colonies.

----------


## dancrilis

I think that if you select your terms carefully (and refine them when someone challenges you on something you didn't consider) you could claim that any nation is the oldest nation on Earth.

Actually having that discussion would likely require bringing real world politics into it - so a better question might be in Legends Canon did the Hutt Government predate and outlast The Republic?

I think there is a solid arguement either way as while the Hutt Empire fell in 15,000 BBY it to an extent became the Hutt Ruling Council - if that change indicates that it does not predate the Republic of the time then the Republic becoming a state within the Eternal Empire would likely be a break that would push the Ruling Council as the earlier body anyway (and that is ignoring the Galactic Republic collapsing in 1,100 BBY - which would be an even clearer break).

----------


## Mechalich

> Wait, what disqualifies the UK?
> 
> You could say the act of Union makes a new entity, but by that logic, the modern US is very very different from the 13 colonies.


The act of Union does make a new entity, yes. The US is governed by the Constitution of 1789 - which is different from the Articles of Confederation that initially governed in post independence starting in 1783. The general point is that states tend to rewrite their governing practices with some regularity, and that claims of ancient origins rarely apply to the actual form of government presently operating. So when Obi-Wan says the Jedi guarded the Republic for 25,000 years, he's really referring to numerous different Republics over time. 




> I think there is a solid arguement either way as while the Hutt Empire fell in 15,000 BBY it to an extent became the Hutt Ruling Council - if that change indicates that it does not predate the Republic of the time then the Republic becoming a state within the Eternal Empire would likely be a break that would push the Ruling Council as the earlier body anyway (and that is ignoring the Galactic Republic collapsing in 1,100 BBY - which would be an even clearer break).


The Hutts ought to have longer intervals of continuity than the Republic, due to the vast difference between Hutt and Human lifespans. Jabba was 600 years old when he died. A Hutt generation is probably something like 300 years, the equivalent of 12 human generations. They ought to adjust slowly.

Intriguingly, its possible that the influence of the Hutts was responsible for at least some of the technological stagnation of the Star Wars galaxy.

----------


## Jasdoif

> The general point is that states tend to rewrite their governing practices with some regularity, and that claims of ancient origins rarely apply to the actual form of government presently operating. So when Obi-Wan says the Jedi guarded the Republic for 25,000 years, he's really referring to numerous different Republics over time.


The Republic of Theseus?

----------


## pendell

> The act of Union does make a new entity, yes. The US is governed by the Constitution of 1789 - which is different from the Articles of Confederation that initially governed in post independence starting in 1783. The general point is that states tend to rewrite their governing practices with some regularity, and that claims of ancient origins rarely apply to the actual form of government presently operating.


Actually, we've rewritten our basic law 27 times since the document was originally written. The first ten amendments came out almost immediately after the original document (which just goes to show you NEVER trust the 1.0 release of ANYTHING) while the last one was put in in 1992 (more than 200 years since first proposed!).

So I'm not sure we can claim to be the oldest nation in terms of continuous government. I think this is technically v27, although we're still running the same basic 'operating system', but it as different from the original in some ways as Windows 10 is from Windows 3.1. 

Back to Star Wars, the Republic definitely has a claim on any real world entity for continous, stable running. Even after the Ruusan reformations, that's still thousands of years. Real world entities barely last a century without requiring some kind of update due to changing conditions. It speaks both to the long-term stability of the original system but also, perhaps, to the need for long-overdue change. Padme and Anakin argued about this in Episode II, as I recall. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Aeson

> Actually, we've rewritten our basic law 27 times since the document was originally written. The first ten amendments came out almost immediately after the original document (which just goes to show you NEVER trust the 1.0 release of ANYTHING) while the last one was put in in 1992 (more than 200 years since first proposed!).
> 
> So I'm not sure we can claim to be the oldest nation in terms of continuous government. I think this is technically v27, although we're still running the same basic 'operating system', but it as different from the original in some ways as Windows 10 is from Windows 3.1.


If you want to liken the Constitution and amendments to software, I would suggest that what's happened with the US Constitution is more like the Constitution as originally written is "US Government v2.0" (the Articles of Confederation being v1.0), the amendments are patches or service packs, and the Constitution as it exists today is more like a "US Government v2.27" or a "US Government v2 SP 27."

France's governments over essentially the same period would probably be the better analogue for going from Windows 3.1 to Windows 10 since there are a number of "major versions" of the French government in the period, with the tail end of the Ancien Regime (to 1792), the First Republic (1792-1804), the First Empire (1804-1814/1815), the Bourbon Restoration and Orleanist monarchy (1814/1815-1848), the Second Republic (1848-1851), the Second Empire (1851-1870), the Third Republic (1870-1940, or to 1942 if you include the Vichy government), the Fourth Republic (1946-1958), and the Fifth Republic (1958-present), with room for quibbles over whether or not that's all of the "major versions" (e.g. the First Republic could arguably three or four 'major versions' - one for the initial period, one for the Directory, one for the Consulate, and perhaps one for the Committee of Public Safety - rather than a single major version updated several times between 1792 and 1804).

----------


## Fyraltari

Oh, I fogot to note a "dispense with the pleasentries" last time.

Season 3, Episode 21

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Our heroes decide to contact the council even though that's the last thing we saw them do last time. Windu and Yoda tell them Plo and several ships are on their way to get them. They'll have to meet them at a specific island knowing there's only going to be a narrow window of opportunity. Plo will personally pick them up while another Jedi leads the space battle. It's agreed that if the survivors aren't at the extraction point, they'll be left behind. Well not agreed-agreed since Koon is confident they'll be there, but still. An attack by three droids whose self-confidence I can only admire gets them to keep moving.

Meanwhile Sobek gets a transmission from Dooku who is not happy about how he keeps avoiding his calls. Dooku reminds Sobek of the stakes (these charts could allow them a surprise attack on Coruscant) and threatens to kill him if he doesn't get them back. the Republicans arrive above a lake of what is supposed to be lava but between the yellow color and the fact that it doesnt burn people even when they are centimeters away, I suspect to be glowing corrosive urine. They're immediately attacked by a more consequent group of droids. They dicde to sacrifice their reprogrammed B1s to protect them while they climb down a cliff. At one point the B1s all turn their backs on the ennemy to say their goodbyes to R2 and the Seppies still can't land a single shot. Bloddy stormtroopers woumd be ashamed of you (yeah, yeah I know, they're not that bad, yada yada yada). Besides the droids, two redshirts die.

Sobek decides to sicc some bloodhounds-type aliens called the anubis (sigh) to track them. He also calls on reinforcements to protect the planet a she guessed that the Republic while attempt to rescue the rescue mission. Ahsoka complains about Tarkin's ****ty attitude to Anakin who defends Tarkin's point of view and calls him a good captain. Later he tells Tarkin that arguing with Piel (something we've never seen him do) isn't a wise career move. Wilhuf responds that he needn't worry about that since he's fallen into favour with the Chancellor. Anakin is glad to learn they have a common friend. Awww.

They can hear the aliens howling and realize they'll be reached before they can get to the rendez-vous point unless they do something. Skywalker and Kenobi go ahead to serve as a distraction while Piel and the others hide in a cave and let the beasts overtake them. While the tow Jedi take on the anubis (and some commando on jetbikes), Piel's group is surprised by crab droids who I guess weren't as fast as the rest? Piel sends Tarkin and the clones away while him and Ahsoka fight the droids. Hmm, why? Of course they get into Skywalker and Kenobi's fight. Anakin does a series of backfilp for reasons beyond mortals' ken. He temporary loses his lightsaber (buy a goddam wriststrap!) One clone pushes Tarkin out of the way of incoming fire but gets shot in his place. And the galaxy was considerably worse for it.

Piel and Ahsoka finsh the crab droids off but a lone anubis tackles Piel to the ground and bite him before Tano lift the creature and throws it out of sight which I guess kills it? Piel is apparently dying even though he's not even bleeding and his clothes aren't even torn. Piel wants to tell her the information since there's nobody else around. She thinks she shouldn't since she lied about being assigned to the mission (Huh. I guess Plo did nothing wrong in the end). But hey, no choice. He make sher swear to share the intel with no-one but the Jedi Council.

Sobek is told where the fugitives are so he takes a squad and goes deal with it personnally. Ahoska gets Piel's corpse to the rest of the group and sums up what happened. They wrap him in cloth that they apparently had and have an impromptu burial where they lower his body in the urine-like lava. The Republican fleet arrives into orbit and the Jedi that isn't Plo Koon says there hasn't been battles like this since the days of the Old republic. Where have you been this entire war, dude?

The survivors reach the island/esxtraction point. Of course they have to croos some urinelava to get on it but it's narrow enough that their esclation ropes do the trick. They're really getting all the mileage they can out of these things, aren't they? Sobek gets there jsut as they are crossing and Plo Koon's team power through the separatist's fleet. Sobek is shot out of the sky while his groups gets massacred. The warden oveprowers Tarkin and decides that if he can't get the intel, he can deny it to the Republic and prepares to throw Tarkin into the yellow lava. But Ahsoka kills him before that. And the galaxy was considerably worse for it. Tarkins reluctanlty thanks her. Plo Koon arrives and so do some crab droids who I guess swam through the lava? What the hell?

Having what they came for, the Republicans retreat in an extended battle sequence. On Coruscant, the Jedi are saddened by Piel's death but happy to have the nexus routes's data. However Tarkin refuse to give his half to anybody but Palpatine and Ahsoka to give it to anyone but the Council. Yoda decides he'll just have a talk with the Chancellor. And that's how the intel still ended up in Separatist hands. Anakin asks Plo Koon if he assigned Ahsoka to the mission. "It appears I did." I doubt she learned her lesson, though. tarkin and Anakin shake hands in friendship while a snippet of the Imperial March plays. Nice. Obi-Wan isn't too found of Skywalker's new ally, saying that should they sacrifice everything to achieve victory, they risk losing their honour.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

It's not as good as the previous episodes (the fight really didn't feel very impactful) but it was overall pretty nice. A good conclusion to one of the better arcs of this season. This episode really shows hierchy of worth of one's life in the Republican army though: Jedi > normal human > clone > droid. Piel got his own funeral and all while poor Echo was just left unmourned. I find that even weirder from a stroytelling perspective since we've known Echo a lot more than Piel.


Next up: *Padawan Lost* What did Ahsoka get herself into this time?

----------


## dancrilis

> Piel sends Tarkin and the clones away while him and Ahsoka fight the droids. Hmm, why?


I imagine that he didn't want both halves of the code together in case they were captured.




> The Republican fleet arrives into orbit and the JEdi that isn't Plo Koon says there hasn't been battles like this since the days of the Old republic. Where have you been this entire war, dude?


It is possible that this was the first battle of the war where no body commited any clever tricks like surrendering to draw enemies out of position so you can shoot them etc.

----------


## Keltest

Echo presumably doesnt get a funeral because he got exploded really hard and they didnt have anything to bury. I doubt even Fives would be interested in just standing around for a ceremony for the sake of ceremony. At least Piel had a body they had to deal with in some way.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I imagine that he didn't want both halves of the code together in case they were captured.


Makes sense.




> It is possible that this was the first battle of the war where no body commited any clever tricks like surrendering to draw enemies out of position so you can shoot them etc.


I doubt it. It's possible that the missing 2/5ths of the planet are due to some ancient battle and that's what the Jedi is commenting on? I don't know. 



> Echo presumably doesnt get a funeral because he got exploded really hard and they didnt have anything to bury. I doubt even Fives would be interested in just standing around for a ceremony for the sake of ceremony. At least Piel had a body they had to deal with in some way.


Nobody else gets a funeral even though several clones died in that very engagement, like th eone who sacrificed himself for Tarkin. They're just left where they fell apparently. Don't get me wrong, it makes plenty of sense to me that Jedi would see more value in the loss of a fellow Jedi than in the clones (they seem to always do so). What I meant about Echo is more doylist. I'm surprised the episode devoted so much time to Piel's death and not to Echo's. We could have had Fives (last survivor of Domino Squad) talk about it to Rex during the ending, for example.

----------


## hamishspence

What happened to Echo becomes a plot point in the Bad Batch arc (season 7):

*Spoiler*
Show

He's still alive - the Separatists retrieved his bisected, not quite dead body, and kept him from dying. He ended up wired into some piece of Separatist computing equipment as I recall, before being discovered by the Bad Batch and rescued.

----------


## pendell

> Nobody else gets a funeral even though several clones died in that very engagement, like th eone who sacrificed himself for Tarkin. They're just left where they fell apparently. Don't get me wrong, it makes plenty of sense to me that Jedi would see more value in the loss of a fellow Jedi than in the clones (they seem to always do so). What I meant about Echo is more doylist. I'm surprised the episode devoted so much time to Piel's death and not to Echo's. We could have had Fives (last survivor of Domino Squad) talk about it to Rex during the ending, for example.


I cannot tell you how annoying I find this. In the real world we give funerals to  military and police dogs. _Dogs_, for pity's sake.  The clear message is that the clones aren't valued by the Republic they serve. Granted, we don't see dogs get funerals in the GFFA either, but the point still stands: The Republic values clones less than the real world  values service animals. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## dancrilis

> What happened to Echo becomes a plot point in the Bad Batch arc (season 7):


I don't think that impacts Fyraltari's point though - for someone watching the show episode by episode a recurring character died without much in the way of recognition of that fact while a single arc character got a funeral, perfectly understandable for the universe they are in but a bit odd from a viewers prespective.

The fact that four seasons later what happened is revisited doesn't really change that.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

I think that's the Jedi way though.  "Mourn them do not, miss them do not".  So worried about detachment that they come off as callous.  The only Jedi funeral we see in canon is I believe Qui-Gon's and given where it takes place and who's in attendance it could easily be argued the Naboo are memorializing him rather than the Jedi.

It's why I think it's so notable and touching that

*Spoiler: Clone Wars: Final Season*
Show

Ahsoka digs a grave for each and every Clone killed in the finale.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I think that's the Jedi way though.  "Mourn them do not, miss them do not".  So worried about detachment that they come off as callous.  The only Jedi funeral we see in canon is I believe Qui-Gon's and given where it takes place and who's in attendance it could easily be argued the Naboo are memorializing him rather than the Jedi.


But that's the thing. There's a Jedi funeral right there in the episode. Even though they are on the run and the episode stresses their tight schedule thay take the time to prepare his corpse, slowly lower him into the stream and watch him drift away. While the other deads are ignored.

This is the kind of things that perfectly explains Order 66, well would have if not for for the (third?) other retcon this show is known for. But we'll get there when we get there.

----------


## Keltest

> But that's the thing. There's a Jedi funeral right there in the episode. Even though they are on the run and the episode stresses their tight schedule thay take the time to prepare his corpse, slowly lower him into the stream and watch him drift away. While the other deads are ignored.
> 
> This is the kind of things that perfectly explains Order 66, well would have if not for for the (third?) other retcon this show is known for. But we'll get there when we get there.


The other thing is, they have his corpse already, and its a moment of calm. Its not really feasible to go back for most of their dead, especially the ones who die by means of gravity or something.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The other thing is, they have his corpse already, and its a moment of calm. Its not really feasible to go back for most of their dead, especially the ones who die by means of gravity or something.


I counted two dead in the same battle. One (the poor sap who died for Tarkin) in the very place Ahsoka met them with Piel's corpse.

----------


## Keltest

> I counted two dead in the same battle. One (the poor sap who died for Tarkin) in the very place Ahsoka met them with Piel's corpse.


I think assuming that they dont hold some sort of service for MIA or KIA clones just because we dont see it is a bit... whatever the opposite of generous is. Its a TV show, not everything that happens gets screen time. As you note, theyre redshirts. The audience doesnt care about them or want to spend a lot of time dwelling on them instead of spending the finite amount of screen time advancing the plot.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I think assuming that they dont hold some sort of service for MIA or KIA clones just because we dont see it is a bit... whatever the opposite of generous is.


I'm sure they do. But they're giving special treatment to this one, which I think is worthy of note. If it hadn't happened I would have simply assumed they'd all have had their bodiless ceremonies back on Coruscant.



> Its a TV show, not everything that happens gets screen time. As you note, theyre redshirts. The audience doesnt care about them or want to spend a lot of time dwelling on them instead of spending the finite amount of screen time advancing the plot.


But I cared more about Echo than about Piel.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> But that's the thing. There's a Jedi funeral right there in the episode.


My point was more that I'm not convinced given the location and attendees that it was a Jedi funeral (it was a funeral for a Jedi, but it seems more like it was set up by the Naboo).  Especially given the lack of other canon ceremonies or memorials.  In fact, we don't even see any real evidence the Jedi memorialize the dead at all.  For example, in canon, the busts of Jedi in the library in Episode II are of Jedi who left the order, not those who died (That's Dooku Obi-Wan is looking at in the scene).

Edit:  If you want some further evidence it's not the Jedi honoring Qui-Gon in that scene, Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan are all using this solemn occasion to talk unrelated business.

----------


## Fyraltari

> My point was more that I'm not convinced given the location and attendees that it was a Jedi funeral (it was a funeral for a Jedi, but it seems more like it was set up by the Naboo).  Especially given the lack of other canon ceremonies or memorials.  In fact, we don't even see any real evidence the Jedi memorialize the dead at all.  For example, in canon, the busts of Jedi in the library in Episode II are of Jedi who left the order, not those who died (That's Dooku Obi-Wan is looking at in the scene).
> 
> Edit:  If you want some further evidence it's not the Jedi honoring Qui-Gon in that scene, Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan are all using this solemn occasion to talk unrelated business.


I am talking about Piel's funeral.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> I am talking about Piel's funeral.


That was a corpse disposal and "A moment to honor him".    Ahsoka is the only one who really says anything about his passing.

----------


## Fyraltari

> That was a corpse disposal and "A moment to honor him".    Ahsoka is the only one who really says anything about his passing.


How is that different from a funeral? i really don't see what distinction you make or how it would be relevant to the point I made (different treatment _vis-à-vis_ the clones).

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> How is that different from a funeral? i really don't see what distinction you make or how it would be relevant to the point I made (different treatment _vis-à-vis_ the clones).


Because looking at that scene, the only reason Obi-Wan even goes that far is that he sees how shaken up Ahsoka is over his death.  It's an excuse to give her a moment to process the death, not a way to honor Piel.  He and Anakin are clearly finding it unnecessary.

----------


## Kornaki

That's because the two of them are psychopaths.

----------


## Taevyr

> I think assuming that they dont hold some sort of service for MIA or KIA clones just because we dont see it is a bit... whatever the opposite of generous is. Its a TV show, not everything that happens gets screen time. As you note, theyre redshirts. The audience doesnt care about them or want to spend a lot of time dwelling on them instead of spending the finite amount of screen time advancing the plot.


I always felt that was kind of the point being made by not giving Echo a funeral: showing that the Jedi, _in-universe_, consider them to be redshirts. Whether you consider Piel's "funeral" an actual funeral, a simple way to honor him, or just a method to help Ahsoka process his death, the fact remains that apparently they felt the same effort wasn't warranted for a clone or a clone's death couldn't have been as impactful, no matter how long he served alongside them.

The Clone Wars goes through lot of effort to humanize the clones, with Echo and Fives as two of the key examples. I doubt the writers actually thought "we'll just ignore the death of this character who's been with us from the start since he's just a clone".

----------


## Keltest

> I always felt that was kind of the point being made by not giving Echo a funeral: showing that the Jedi, _in-universe_, consider them to be redshirts. Whether you consider Piel's "funeral" an actual funeral, a simple way to honor him, or just a method to help Ahsoka process his death, the fact remains that apparently they felt the same effort wasn't warranted for a clone or a clone's death couldn't have been as impactful, no matter how long he served alongside them.
> 
> The Clone Wars goes through lot of effort to humanize the clones, with Echo and Fives as two of the key examples. I doubt the writers actually thought "we'll just ignore the death of this character who's been with us from the start since he's just a clone".


While true, they also made a point of showing the Jedi consider the clones to not just be disposable redshirts. I believe they even had an explicit line in the first season to that effect.

----------


## Fyraltari

> While true, they also made a point of showing the Jedi consider the clones to not just be disposable redshirts. I believe they even had an explicit line in the first season to that effect.


They say they do, but they're very inconsistant about this. For example when Plo Koon is tranded with some clones one of them tells him that the Republic will be looking for him specifically but not for them since they're "just clones", he answers "not to me", but every time the episode shows the resuce team they talk about rescuing "Master Plo" and not a thought is spared to the clones.


Basically the Jedi seem to have a few clones they care about each (those they serve alongside) but not give any real thoughts to those they don't know personally.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

I'd be more inclined to blame that on the writers than the characters.

----------


## Mechalich

> They say they do, but they're very inconsistant about this. For example when Plo Koon is tranded with some clones one of them tells him that the Republic will be looking for him specifically but not for them since they're "just clones", he answers "not to me", but every time the episode shows the resuce team they talk about rescuing "Master Plo" and not a thought is spared to the clones.
> 
> 
> Basically the Jedi seem to have a few clones they care about each (those they serve alongside) but not give any real thoughts to those they don't know personally.


It's worth keeping in mind that the Jedi drastically outrank the average clone. In just about any military ever the death of a General will be treated with vastly more significance and ceremony than the death of a Private or NCO. 

The real problem is that the Jedi are regularly shown commanding comparatively tiny numbers of Clones for their overall rank. A Jedi Commander (meaning a Padawan) was supposed to command a Battalion or a Regiment - which is 576 or 2,304 troopers. A Jedi General commanded a Legion - Anakin commanded the 501st Legion - of 9,216 troopers, or a Corps of 36,864 troopers. Jedi Generals ranked above that, such as members of the High Council, commanded entire Sector and Systems Armies of hundreds of thousands of troops. 

So even though the Jedi are inclined to act as their own Special Forces and lead their troops into combat from the front, they really should be leading considerably more than we see. There are many reasons that they don't. Not least of which is the technical challenge of rendering hundreds or thousands of digital models on screen at one time (especially in the early seasons of TCW, season 7 actually manages to handle somewhat larger units).

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 3, Episode 21: Padwan Lost*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

So the Republic and the CIS are fighting over Felucia again. Even the narrator calls it an "endless battle", apparently it's location makes it strategically important. Plo, Anakin and Ahsoka are leading the charge and apparenlty good ol' Grievous is their opposite number even though he doesn't show up in the episode. The republicans prepare an attack on a Separatist base just as reinforcement arrives. Each Jedi will lead a particular group for a three-pronged attack. they're helped by native Felucians too. Anakin and Ahsoka have a moment and she says she can handle anything. Mandatory "Don't get cocky, kid."

As Ahsoka leads her group towards the back of the base, she senses something but ultimately dismisses it as probably just an animal. The Separatists really should have cut down those tree(things surrounding their bases, it's almost insulting how easy it is to sneak on them. Koon orders a bombardment of the ennemy base, in order to counter attack, they open their gates which allows Skywalker to rush in. Plo Force-jumps over the wall while his troop follows thanks to jet-packs. They fly now. Ahsoka's team strat scaling the wall while she stays behind to protect them. It's a nice plan really. The padwan however is being stalked by a trandoshan. As she still feels something, she tells her men to move forward, she'll catch up. The non-human fires a laser-net at her which stuns her. Neat deasing even if I question the logic behind it. He's extatic to have captured a Jedi youngling.

Anakin is pretty elated by their easy victory but his mood sinks fast once he realizes Ahsoka is missing in action. He tries calling her but, of course, her captor took her communicator and destroys it. She's in a cage inside a spaceship and a fellow prisoner kindly explains that their jailers intend to release them somewher and hunt them down for sport. I have to salute the galls of these pirates going around looking for game in a warzone. The one who captured Ahsoka reports to his leader who is pretty excited to have a Jedi prisoner as this may be the first Jedi kill of his son. The son, Darr, is looking forward to it.

The pirates depart to another planet, or rather, another's planet moon and unload their captives on "Island 4". Then they open fire on them to make them run, killing two. As Ahsoka is hinding in the island's forest, she's accosted by three other preys, a human girl, Califa, a twi'lek boy, Jink, and another boy of Ki-Adi Mundi's species, Omer who teke her to their hide-out. Surprise, they used to be Jedi younglings. Odd that the trandoshans would look for more game before finishing off their previous hunts. These three look like they're old enough to have been Padawans-learner for a couple years, so they've been there a loooong time. They were captured during a training mission. Apparently the pirates only target younglings because grown Jedi are too dangerous for them. Were these three on a mission without adult supervision? What the ****, Jedi Order? they've been there for so long, they gave up on the notion that any one would come rescue them.

The next morning Anakin is still looking for Ahsoka even though they've done all they can. Plo Koon tells him that their intelligence covers all the Outer Rim and they have spies in the CIS, if Ahsoka is spotted anywhaere, they'll know. Bu they are done on Felucia and need to get back to Coruscant. Skywalker is adamant he won't abandon Ahsoka, or leave her fate in the hands of others. but even he has to admit there's nothing he can do right now. Meanwhile, Califa explains to Ahsoka that their plan to survive is to just move out everyday and stay below the hunters' radar. Tano isn't impressed but she yields to califa's superior experience of this place.

Cut to the hunters' base, it's a pretty nifty floating platform, with a throne room full of the hides and heads of sentient species. Nice. The king declares the hunt opened and his men get on some kind of boxy speeders with mounted guns, descending on the island while firing wildly in the air. The Jedi come across two of Ahsoka's fellow prisoners. She wants to join up with them but Califa decreeds that it's too late. How do you know that? One of them is taken out by a surprised shot and the other only manages to run for a while before a hunter snipes her down. Califa has to stop Ahsoka from intervening.

Ahsoka is upset by what happened, Califa tells her they're no longer saviors, but survivors. The Togruta wants to go on the offensive rather than just hide forever. Jink comments that she isn't the first Padawan to suggest that. And the others died. She refuses to listen to them because her master would never forgive her if she did, and she leaves them. She delibaretely exposes herself and is attacked by Darr. She doesn't have a weapon but the Force is her ally and she disarms him. He manges to throw her off and get his gun back but as he was going to shoot her down Califa starts Force-strangling him. Ahsoka tells her not to kill him out of hatred. Califa drops him to the ground and the trandoshan starts calling for help. Omer and Jink Force-slam him into a tree and the youngling run for it. With his gun.

The next evening Ahsoka tries to make the blaster work but it won't. Turns out the trandoshans can remotely deactivate them to insure their prey don't use them against them. Clever. However califa says that Ahsoak's energy and hope reminded them of who they were: Jedi. Ahsoka decides that their first course of action is to find where the hunters live. The trandoshans, for their part, are in the middle or some kind of ceremony centered arounf Darr, not sure what it's about, coming of age, maybe? It's delightfully creepy though, especially the close up on the stuffed wookkiee faces.

Ya know, I never noticed but Ahsoka's tights have square holes in them. Looks like they'd break easily, is that really suited for battle? They cna't find the fortress until Omer looks up and sees it coming out of the clouds. How have you never noticed it before now? Seriously, it's just hanging there. Two hoverpods descend on them and start firing. Ahsoka and Califa go one way, and the boys in another direction. tHe Hoverpod follong the boys has just the sniper from before while the gorls are chased by Dar, the king and another hunter.

Califa falls down and the king gives the kill to Darr who quickly makes his way to her. Despite having a clear shot at her (and her forgetting she can strangle him I guess) he starts ranting about how many Jedi he's going to kill rather than shooting. Ahsoka jump-kicks him in the face. The two of them start fighting and honestly, even without his gun, it's a surprisingly close match even if she's clearly got the superior technique. She ends up throwing him off the platform they had ended up on and he gets impaled on some kind of small tree? It should be dramatic but the complete abscence of gore or even blood ruins it for me. What's he made of, clay?

Ahsoka rejoins Califa who says she can make it and is immediately sniped down. By the king, who takes his son's death about as well as any parent would. Califa and Ahsoka have a tearful goodbye while the kings shoots and yells impotently in the background. Back on Coruscant, Anakin is staring at a map of a Galaxy. Plo shows up and tells him that if he's trained Ahsoka as well as he says, she might be able to find her way out of whatever her current predicament is even if Anakin can't help her. I get what he's trying to say, but should she not get back on her own, that'll just make anakin feel more guilty for not training her well enough.


*Spoiler: My thouhgts*
Show

So what do these trandoshans do for a living? I doubt there's any money in hunting people for sport so how do they afford all the fuel and equipment they need?

Also I wouldn't be surprised if in the next episode there's no mention of anyone checking Islands 1 through 3 to rescue the preys there.

I'm kinda disapointed Dar ended up just being a straight up vilain. I was hoping that getting spared would make him reconsider his father's lifestyle.

So how many younglings and padawans have this group abducted over the years? Did the Jedi never notice?

Also, assuming Jink and Omer make it out alive, there'll be just thrilled to learn there's a war going on and they'll be expected to fight in it, I guess.

Apart from that a very good episode. Califa was a nice character to have and the vilains are competent enough.


Next up: *Wookiee Hunt*.

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## pendell

*Spoiler*
Show





> So what do these trandoshans do for a living? I doubt there's any money in hunting people for sport so how do they afford all the fuel and equipment they need?





The species you  mention shows up in the Republic Commando video game as well. In that game they are mercenaries, more than willing to jack Republic ships and sell them to the highest bidder.  I assume that's where the money of this particular bunch is coming from; that or some other pursuit equally unsavory.  

I also wouldn't be too sure there wouldn't be a market for ... recreational pursuits. In the real world, fat people with no wilderness experience pay $$$$$$$ to go to Africa and 'hunt' lions.   Who's to say there aren't people in the GFFA willing to pay top credit for a shot at more exotic game? 

Respectfully but with plenty of euphemisms, 

Brian P.

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## Fyraltari

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The species you  mention shows up in the Republic Commando video game as well. In that game they are mercenaries, more than willing to jack Republic ships and sell them to the highest bidder.  I assume that's where the money of this particular bunch is coming from; that or some other pursuit equally unsavory.  
> ...


Wait, why did you put my quote in a spoiler box?

Maybe this group is just a bunch of rich people and this is their idea of vacations. That would help explain how the younglings never noticed the floating base, maybe it only shows up a handful of weeks a year.

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## Mechalich

> Maybe this group is just a bunch of rich people and this is their idea of vacations. That would help explain how the younglings never noticed the floating base, maybe it only shows up a handful of weeks a year.


At least some portion of the Transdoshan culture worships a deity called the Scorekeeper. Hunting and killing prey, the more dangerous the better, is functionally a divine commandment. Dar, in this episode, is actually trying to complete a rite of passage to adulthood by killing Ahsoka. As a result this is more like a religious retreat and other Transdoshans would absolutely pay the clan running the base for the privilege of using the hunting grounds, especially with a chance at a Jedi.

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## pendell

> Wait, why did you put my quote in a spoiler box?


Because you put your initial "my thoughts" in a spoiler. I responded as  best I could while trying to remove as many telltales as possible so I wouldn't need a spoiler box of my own.  




> Maybe this group is just a bunch of rich people and this is their idea of vacations. That would help explain how the younglings never noticed the floating base, maybe it only shows up a handful of weeks a year.


As good an explanation as any. 




> At least some portion of the Transdoshan culture worships a deity called the Scorekeeper. Hunting and killing prey, the more dangerous the better, is functionally a divine commandment. Dar, in this episode, is actually trying to complete a rite of passage to adulthood by killing Ahsoka. As a result this is more like a religious retreat and other Transdoshans would absolutely pay the clan running the base for the privilege of using the hunting grounds, especially with a chance at a Jedi.


This gives me an idea for a story;  a 'hunting club' which advertises for voluntary 'quarry' to be hunted down and killed. If they survive, they get paid the equivalent of several years worth of ordinary labor; enough to start a business, pay off a mortgage, or send an offspring to college. Don't survive, and the question doesn't arise. Or perhaps a smaller consolation prize is paid to the survivor's family. All of this on the black market, of course, which the Republic would be determined to stamp out.  Cue Jedi investigators hot on the trail. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Fyraltari

> At least some portion of the Transdoshan culture worships a deity called the Scorekeeper. Hunting and killing prey, the more dangerous the better, is functionally a divine commandment.


Yeah, in my opinion that's really lazy worldbuilding. Like "the Scorekeeper"? Come on.




> Dar, in this episode, is actually trying to complete a rite of passage to adulthood by killing Ahsoka.


It seems impossible that everyone in this culture needs to kill a Jedi to be considered an adult and the way the dialog points out that Califa/Ahsoka would be his first Jedi kill I get the impression he's already killed before.

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## Keltest

> Yeah, in my opinion that's really lazy worldbuilding. Like "the Scorekeeper"? Come on.
> 
> 
> 
> It seems impossible that everyone in this culture needs to kill a Jedi to be considered an adult and the way the dialog points out that Califa/Ahsoka would be his first Jedi kill I get the impression he's already killed before.


My understanding is that it just has to be a high profile hunt relative to the status of the hunter, and he's kind of a noble, so while a Jedi isnt the only viable target, its a really juicy one.

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## Mechalich

> Yeah, in my opinion that's really lazy worldbuilding. Like "the Scorekeeper"? Come on.


The initial reference comes from Tales of the Bounty Hunters. High cheese was fairly common in the Bantam Era of the Legends EU. The idea was expanded upon at some length in SWTOR. The religion essentially organizes Trandoshan life into a giant contest, with the goal to obtain as many points as possible. The more points one had, the better the position acquired in the afterlife. This is certainly weird, but alien cultures should be weird. 

'Scorekeeper' can be justified along the lines that it's a poor translation of what the goddess is actually called, but since the actual words would be some kind of unpronounceable reptilian growl, this is what gets used.




> It seems impossible that everyone in this culture needs to kill a Jedi to be considered an adult and the way the dialog points out that Califa/Ahsoka would be his first Jedi kill I get the impression he's already killed before.


Dar was the son of an elite guild leader, which in the bizarrely gamified society of Trandoshans is a position of very high authority. So he needed a high profile target for his induction into the guild.

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## Taevyr

Yeah, you need to kill a worthy target if you want to get any Jagganath points: the more you have, the harder it gets to get more. Jedi are very worthy targets, apparently, but hardly the only ones. 

Though the episode is definitely lacking, since most of the EU makes it clear that the challenge and the hunt itself is an important part: as said by others, this is essentially the equivalent of rich americans buying themselves/their children a kill. Wouldn't be that many points in it for any self-respecting hunter, unless they're literal novices.

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## Fyraltari

*season 3, Episode 22, Wookiee Hunt*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Picking up immediately after where we left, Ahsoka evades a hunter in a scene reminiscent of that "hiding from the Nazguls" bit in the _The Lord of the Rings_ movies. The trandoshan who was chasing her (and whose voice absolutely doesn't match his growls, it's hilarious) lost her scent despite being right ontop of her. The king calls off the hunt for the time being but he intends to get her eventually. Also, his hoverpod is painting in an angry face. She makes it back to the hide-out and gives the boys the bad news. They take it as badly as you expect. "We're going to die here, it's only a matter of time. -I say we go down with a fight! -That is suicide." Yes, Jinx, that's the idea. Ahsoka's idea is to attack the ship that brings new prisoners every few days (so, this is the trandoshans' main activity, not their vacations).

Later, Ahsoka and the other two jump on the ship as it arrives. It's only got a crew of two this time around, but I guess it makes sense that their operation is bit disturned by their boss mourning his son. One of them goes to confront the Jedi on the hull and gets socked by O-Mer and Jinx while Ahsoka uses the hatch he opened for her to get to the pilot. Yeah, these guys aren't the brightests, aren't they? At one point Jinx uses the Force to throw O-Mer at their ennemy. Yay, teamwork? The pilot does a _Kill Bill_ on Ahsoka and surprises her with a shotgun. An actual shotgun, too, with faster-than-the-eye-can-see bullets. I feel like Jedi would have a much harder time if these weapons were more common.

Their fight damages the ship's controls and it starts convulsing and exploding. Sound slike a design flaw to me. They manage to throw the trandoshans overboard but Ahsoka doesn't want to abandon ship without saving the prisoners. So she hit one unlablled buttons among hundreds somehow knowing it'll drop them all. Good thing that's working. The Jedi land on the ground as the ship crashes. "Well, guess we won't be escaping on that ship." They find a surviving prisoner and the Force theme starts playing as Chewbacca is revealed.

1) CHEWIIIIE!
2) Called it:



> It just dawned on me that its not a question of if Chewabacca is going to show up but when he inevitably will.


eleventh months ago? What the hell?
3) Hey, they let him keep his ammo bandolier. Nice, I guess?

the following morning, the trandoshans inspect the crash: two dead and the only prisoner escaped. The king isn't pleased. Hey Ahsoka understands Shryywookk. Convenient. Nobody knows Chewie was taken by he can build a transmitter to contact his homeworld. Jinx is being a contrarian during the entire conversation but every objection he raises is actually a good point. Tano and Chewie go search the wreck while the boys keep watch. Chewie was very literal when he said he was going to _build_ a transmitter. He's not going to fix the ship's, he's taking bits of the ship apart. A hoverpod arrives and drops off a hunter who starts scoping the wreck. Random. O-Mer and Jinx stop him from sniping Ahsoka and Chewie overpowers him. Jink suggests they take him prisoner rather than kimm him and they take him to their base.

Chewie is having issues with his makeshift transmitter so the boys decide to implement another plan: using the prisoner to hijack a pod and fly to the fortress. Ahsoka can't let them do this alone so she agrees to help and guilt-trip Chewbacca into helping as well. The hunter refuses to co-operate and shrugs off Mind Tricks. Until Chewie socks him on the side of the head. That makes sense, I guess? Jinx makes him believed he's escaped so that he'd call a speeder to be picked up. I like that they couldn't just make him call a speeder, they had to justify it for him. They take over the hoverpod, pretty easily and, just as they leave, we see Chewbacca's trnasmitter finally getting a connection and sending out a recorded message.

When they arrive on the fortress, Chewbacca immediately chugs a guard over the safety rails (the one time somebody's got thos in this galaxy!) but the other sounds the alarm. Battle ensues and my, these reptiles are tougher than they look, they can take a thrown hoverpod to the face and puches from the Mighty Chewbacca himself. The king shoots O-Mer out of the sky and he crashes on the battlefield, forcing the others to jump to the ground. And stare up to the cannons of the ennemy's guns. And here comes the cvalry! In the form of a squad of Wookiees lead by a general (the one fro RotS, I'm sure), because of course they are, in the ship of Sugi, the bounty huntress from last season. Damn, is Kashyyyk so tight on money their army can't even afford their own ships?

The trandoshans are still surprisingly tough (one of them even overpowers Chewie) but the wookiees just start throwing them to their deaths some more. The general stomps on a hunter's face at one point. Brutal. Thr king retreats into his throne room and Ahsoka follows him, alone. Hey, there's a Mandalorian helmet from the KOTOR era in the throne room as trophy. Nice. The king gets the drop on Ahsoka, but chooses to attack her with a hatchet rather than his gun. At one point she tries to Force-slam him into a wall but he uses his claws to anchor himself to the ground. Neat trick. Ultimately she manages to throw him over a table and declares him beaten, because she feels like being dramatic I guess? He tries to grab his gun and she Force-pushes him so hard he crashes through the doors, against the railing and falls to his death. I guess that leaves the two idiots on the ground the trandoshans' only survivors. I wonder what the Wookiees'll do to them.

Cut to Coruscant... and Ahsoka and the boys are still grimy and dirty. Couldn't stop on Kashyyyk for a wash, a change of clothes, a good meal, a physical and a good night's rest on an actual bed? Really? Plo Koon is just glad "Little 'Soka" is fine but Anakin basically trips over himself apologizing for letting her get kidnapped. She reassures him there was nothing he could do, and since his training was what helped her stay alive and lead the others, he did in fact save her. They walk into the Temple as Yoda smiles knowingly. End of the season.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Well this was a simple, nice enough arc. It allows Ahsoka to show how much she's grown as she slips into the leader role pretty seamlessly and does very well despite having no weapon or her usual allies to fall back to. It also has very good character work on Anakin as his protectiveness is presented sympathetically and his worries are of course relatable, but it's also foreshadowing of RotS since it shows that he's incapable of admitting that he can't protect his love ones 100% 24/7. Also I like the king's look, he seems to be some kind of albino with stripes painted on his scales, it really makes him stand out. Chewie wasn't really necessary to the episode (Ahsoka's already established to be good with ship machinery so she could have built that transmitter) but not a detriment either and it's nice to see him.


Next up: Well, this is it for season 3, so my thoughts on the season overall before moving on to *Water War*.

----------


## Taevyr

Concerning the shotgun/kinetic weaponry in general: "slugthrowers" are generally seen as archaic and complicated, as blaster fire canonically doesn't need to take the ballistics that impacts kinetic weaponry into account, since all a blaster does is "laser go pew" without any complications. The ammunition's also supposedly rarer/harder to produce than whatever powers blasters. There's one example (that I can think of) in SW lore where kinetic weapons were favored, however.

During the mandalorian wars, it didn't take long for the mandos to realize firing a blaster at a jedi was usually a pleasant diversion for them, as they hardly needed to put in any effort to reflect them back towards you. As a response, they soon decided to incorporate the use of slugthrowers against jedi, with those who could afford it always carrying one for that purpose.

Imagine a Jedi, utterly convinced he can block enemy fire the way they've always done for eons, putting his saber in a bullet's path and being rewarded with a face- or handful of hot, molten metal. Probably several times. While the other Jedi suffer the same thing.

It's _really stupid_ that they're hardly ever used this way in canon, but I always liked that it's the mandalorians who actually thought of it in canon. Fits them perfectly.

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## Keltest

> Concerning the shotgun/kinetic weaponry in general: "slugthrowers" are generally seen as archaic and complicated, as blaster fire canonically doesn't need to take the ballistics that impacts kinetic weaponry into account, since all a blaster does is "laser go pew" without any complications. The ammunition's also supposedly rarer/harder to produce than whatever powers blasters. There's one example (that I can think of) in SW lore where kinetic weapons were favored, however.
> 
> During the mandalorian wars, it didn't take long for the mandos to realize firing a blaster at a jedi was usually a pleasant diversion for them, as they hardly needed to put in any effort to reflect them back towards you. As a response, they soon decided to incorporate the use of slugthrowers against jedi, with those who could afford it always carrying one for that purpose.
> 
> Imagine a Jedi, utterly convinced he can block enemy fire the way they've always done for eons, putting his saber in a bullet's path and being rewarded with a face- or handful of hot, molten metal. Probably several times. While the other Jedi suffer the same thing.
> 
> It's _really stupid_ that they're hardly ever used this way in canon, but I always liked that it's the mandalorians who actually thought of it in canon. Fits them perfectly.


Jedi are sufficiently rare that there isn't really a market for them. It would need to be a custom thing that only sees use by folks like General Grevious when he hunts down a jedi.

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## Mechalich

> Concerning the shotgun/kinetic weaponry in general: "slugthrowers" are generally seen as archaic and complicated, as blaster fire canonically doesn't need to take the ballistics that impacts kinetic weaponry into account, since all a blaster does is "laser go pew" without any complications. The ammunition's also supposedly rarer/harder to produce than whatever powers blasters.


It's not that the ammunition is harder to produce, it's that its heavier, bulkier, and requires reloading more often. A modern assault rifle has a magazine with 30 rounds and weighs about half a kilo. A blaster power pack is good for at least 100 shots (sources differ somewhat) and weighs around 100 grams. That's a massive increase in efficacy in terms of fire rate and ammo capacity.




> During the mandalorian wars, it didn't take long for the mandos to realize firing a blaster at a jedi was usually a pleasant diversion for them, as they hardly needed to put in any effort to reflect them back towards you. As a response, they soon decided to incorporate the use of slugthrowers against jedi, with those who could afford it always carrying one for that purpose.
> 
> Imagine a Jedi, utterly convinced he can block enemy fire the way they've always done for eons, putting his saber in a bullet's path and being rewarded with a face- or handful of hot, molten metal. Probably several times. While the other Jedi suffer the same thing.
> 
> It's _really stupid_ that they're hardly ever used this way in canon, but I always liked that it's the mandalorians who actually thought of it in canon. Fits them perfectly.


Lightsabers _can_ deflect bullets and other projectiles, though yes Jedi do have to be careful where the metal goes afterwards (or they just need to be wearing armor). If you've ever played the Jedi Knight games you've done just that against several Imperial-wielded projectile weapons as Kyle Katarn. Jedi can also Force push projectiles back at the shooter (though this works better with slow things like grenades and missiles than bullets). Lightsabers can also detect non-blaster forms of energy, like the 'maser' weaponry used by the Chiss in some Legends sources. Jedi are, however, vulnerable to area attacks whether energy or projectile in nature. Shotgun-style weapons existed in Star Wars for both projectile and energy technologies, and were called Scatterguns or Scatter Blasters respectively. There were plenty of other useful weapons for overcoming a lightsaber defense, like flamethrowers or sonic blasters, too.

Weapon variability in Star Wars is a funny, and it shifts a lot by production type. Video games tend to have all sorts of different weapons using different technologies - as early as the original _Dark Forces_ Kyle Katarn was carrying around a good half-dozen different weapon types - while other sources are much more conservative. Animation particularly favors blasters, for reasons of both visibility and ratings.

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## Peelee

My apologies on the lateness of this one:




> Next up: *Wookie Hunt*.


Wookiee. 2 E's.

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## Fyraltari

> My apologies on the lateness of this ine:
> 
> 
> 
> Wookiee. 2 E's.


Ah, Sithspit.

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## Peelee

> It's _really stupid_ that they're hardly ever used this way in canon, but I always liked that it's the mandalorians who actually thought of it in canon. Fits them perfectly.


As others have said, the rarity of the Jedi for the rest of the galaxy is a big factor for this not being stupid, but another factor is that it's not an unstoppable weapon against the Jedi; if they have the precondition and reaction time to swing a lightsaber in front of a bullet, they almost certainly have time to get out of the bullet's way. Lightsaber deflection is their preferred defense, but it's not their _only_ defense.



> Ah, Sithspit.


Hey, you got it during the actual episode review!

Also, if nothing else, I'm pleased to have heightened awareness about it. :Small Wink:

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## dancrilis

> As others have said, the rarity of the Jedi for the rest of the galaxy is a big factor for this not being stupid, but another factor is that it's not an unstoppable weapon against the Jedi; if they have the precondition and reaction time to swing a lightsaber in front of a bullet, they almost certainly have time to get out of the bullet's way. Lightsaber deflection is their preferred defense, but it's not their _only_ defense.


I think it also likely depends on if lightsabers are solid or not - and they seem to go back and fourth on that, so maybe it is a lightsaber setting that Jedi can choose to use or not.

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## Mechalich

> I think it also likely depends on if lightsabers are solid or not - and they seem to go back and fourth on that, so maybe it is a lightsaber setting that Jedi can choose to use or not.


A lightsaber is a continual plasma stream, with particles held in place through the use of an extremely powerful energy field. 'Solid' isn't really a term that applies. For comparison, a high-powered water jet isn't solid, but it still possesses force an the ballistics of a bullet impacting such a stream are quite different from an equivalent still mass of liquid. 

So a bullet that impacts a lightsaber blade will lose a huge proportion of its directional velocity and will deflect away at an angle. Now, because of the considerable physical mass of the slug it won't deflect directly backwards toward the shooter, and in fact will probably only shift 10-20 degrees. Such a shot could still very easily still hit the Jedi, especially if they aren't used to deflecting slugs, but it will do considerably less damage. This is akin to being hit by a ricochet, something that happens all the time in firefights, especially in enclosed spaces with lots of metal, but ricochets are far less dangerous than straight shots.

Truthfully, Jedi going into an actual combat zone should be wearing body armor because of the possibility of ricochets (blasters bounce off things too) but also explosions and shrapnel. Jedi in various Old Republic Eras did wear body armor in combat, and Obi-Wan wears it during the Clone Wars, but generally Star Wars is a franchise that eschews proper use of armor for distinctive character designs. Not just with Jedi, either. For example, the bounty hunter Sugi, who showed up in the most recent episode, wanders around combat zones in a tank top.

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## dancrilis

> A lightsaber is a continual plasma stream, with particles held in place through the use of an extremely powerful energy field. 'Solid' isn't really a term that applies. For comparison, a high-powered water jet isn't solid, but it still possesses force an the ballistics of a bullet impacting such a stream are quite different from an equivalent still mass of liquid.


This would be fine if we didn't see things like Ahsoka's lightsaber acting solid in The Mandalorian, or people lodging them into rocks to catch themselves while falling in at least one of the new comics.

The density of lightsaber blades seems to be somewhat variable depending on situation.

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## Keltest

> This would be fine if we didn't see things like Ahsoka's lightsaber acting solid in The Mandalorian, or people lodging them into rocks to catch themselves while falling in at least one of the new comics.
> 
> The density of lightsaber blades seems to be somewhat variable depending on situation.


When does it act solid in the Mandalorian?

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## dancrilis

> When does it act solid in the Mandalorian?


In her fight with The Magistrate a number of times (notable it acted a lot less solid when she attacked the main character earlier).

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## Keltest

> In her fight with The Magistrate a number of times (notable it acted a lot less solid when she attacked the main character earlier).


Thats not a function of the lightsaber, that's the Bescar that Mando's armor and the pike are made of.

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## dancrilis

> Thats not a function of the lightsaber, that's the Bescar that Mando's armor and the pike are made of.


So beskar armour makes lightsabers not act as solid, but beskar weapons do make lightsabers act as solid - can you provide some sources on that other then it being an interpretation of the scenes in that episode?

Seperately in Star Wars: The High Republic a character is falling and lodges the blade into a rock to catch themselves and then just hangs there for a while.

----------


## Keltest

> So beskar armour makes lightsabers not act as solid, but beskar weapons do make lightsabers act as solid - can you provide some sources on that other then it being an interpretation of the scenes in that episode?
> 
> Seperately in Star Wars: The High Republic a character is falling and lodges the blade into a rock to catch themselves and then just hangs there for a while.


I think youre just misinterpreting the fight with Mando. He's deflecting the blades off his armor, but he still has his body under there, and he's still subject to Newton's Laws.

Secondly, solid is a state of matter, the same as plasma. Nothing makes a lightsaber "go solid", it just eventually encounters resistance such that it cant pass through. If i shoot a hose at a steel plate, the water doesnt "become solid" when it bounces off, it just cant keep going the way its going. We see in The Phantom Menace that dense/thick/massive enough material can provide some resistance to lightsabers.

----------


## dancrilis

> I think youre just misinterpreting the fight with Mando. He's deflecting the blades off his armor, but he still has his body under there, and he's still subject to Newton's Laws.


He didn't move (nor did she) as if she had hit him with solid blades that bounced off the armour - where against the spear they were fairly solid.




> Secondly, solid is a state of matter, the same as plasma. Nothing makes a lightsaber "go solid", it just eventually encounters resistance such that it cant pass through. If i shoot a hose at a steel plate, the water doesnt "become solid" when it bounces off, it just cant keep going the way its going. We see in The Phantom Menace that dense/thick/massive enough material can provide some resistance to lightsabers.


Not sure your point here - if you shoot a hose at a steel plate for long enough it might eventually bore through but you will never be able to use the stream of water to hang hang off the hole you bore.

In The Phantom Menace they push the lightsaber in and turn it - I take this to be working like a plasma cutter but it is debatable.

----------


## Peelee

> He didn't move (nor did she) as if she had hit him with solid blades that bounced off the armour - where against the spear they were fairly solid.


Can you clear something up for me? When have lightsabers ever acted like they were _not_ weightless solid blades?

----------


## dancrilis

> So beskar armour makes lightsabers not act as solid


Just rewatched this scene and I remembered it wrong - they do act fairly solid against the armour.




> Can you clear something up for me? When have lightsabers ever acted like they were _not_ weightless solid blades?


See:



> During the mandalorian wars, it didn't take long for the mandos to realize firing a blaster at a jedi was usually a pleasant diversion for them, as they hardly needed to put in any effort to reflect them back towards you. As a response, they soon decided to incorporate the use of slugthrowers against jedi, with those who could afford it always carrying one for that purpose.
> 
> Imagine a Jedi, utterly convinced he can block enemy fire the way they've always done for eons, putting his saber in a bullet's path and being rewarded with a face- or handful of hot, molten metal. Probably several times. While the other Jedi suffer the same thing.


Seperately I am the one argueing that they can be solid at times, with others comparing them to a stream of water.

For an example of this here at about the 58th second the energy is prevented from continuing onward (in a manner similiar to a stream of water from a hose as others have indicated above).
*Spoiler*
Show

----------


## Jasdoif

> Weapon variability in Star Wars is a funny, and it shifts a lot by production type. Video games tend to have all sorts of different weapons using different technologies - as early as the original _Dark Forces_ Kyle Katarn was carrying around a good half-dozen different weapon types - while other sources are much more conservative.


I think it's that at the high level, Star Wars doesn't really care about the details of the setting's equipment (nor pretend to, unlike _Star Trek_), and thus the medium determines what it needs to provide.  In the case of _Dark Forces_, a Doom-like released during Doom's heyday, it clearly wanted to evoke the numerous-weapons-with-multiple-ammo feel; thus Kyle carrying up to nine (I think?) types of weapons with power packs/energy cells/mortar rounds/thermal detonators/mines/plasma rounds/rockets to keep track of.

Meanwhile, in episodes of _The Clone Wars_; blaster bolt color is generally determined by which faction is firing them, even though this is ostensibly due to optimization by the manufacturer of the weapon and blasters sometimes change hands during the course of an episode.  Because quickly showing who's where with an overhead shot is far more useful to the audience than in-universe technical details would be.




> I think it also likely depends on if lightsabers are solid or not - and they seem to go back and fourth on that, so maybe it is a lightsaber setting that Jedi can choose to use or not.


I believe this depends on how strong the beam's containment field is; largely because lightsabers wouldn't resemble swords if the field wasn't a rigid extension of the hilt, and because I remember reading that the training lightsabers used by initiates have strengthened containment fields so a good hit leaves a welt instead of a bloody stump or corpse.

----------


## Peelee

> I think it's that at the high level, Star Wars doesn't really care about the details of the setting's equipment (nor pretend to, unlike _Star Trek_)


By the time we had 50-foot Abraham Lincoln In Space, I think it was safe to abandon the idea that Star Trek particularly cared all that much about the details of the equipment.

And if anyone thinks they have any decent rebuttal to this, don't make me bring out Warp Drive.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Originally Posted by Jasdoif
> 
> 
> I think it's that at the high level, Star Wars doesn't really care about the details of the setting's equipment (nor pretend to, unlike _Star Trek_)
> 
> 
> By the time we had 50-foot Abraham Lincoln In Space, I think it was safe to abandon the idea that Star Trek particularly cared all that much about the details of the equipment.


The amount of technobabble suggests attempting to maintain the _illusion_, though.

----------


## Fyraltari

> By the time we had 50-foot Abraham Lincoln In Space


Where else would _you_ put 50-foot Abraham Lincoln?

----------


## Jasdoif

> Where else would _you_ put 50-foot Abraham Lincoln?


Well, the Lincoln Memorial already has that *60*-foot statue of Abraham Lincoln, it'd be a place to start looking....

----------


## Fyraltari

> Well, the Lincoln Memorial already has that *60*-foot statue of Abraham Lincoln, it'd be a place to start looking....


 You can't have a 50-foot Abraham Lincoln next to a 60-foot Abraham Lincoln, that'd be weird.

----------


## Jasdoif

> You can't have a 50-foot Abraham Lincoln next to a 60-foot Abraham Lincoln, that'd be weird.


I suppose, but all my other ideas involve Lincoln Logs and I haven't had those for like a third of a century....

----------


## Kantaki

> You can't have a 50-foot Abraham Lincoln next to a 60-foot Abraham Lincoln, that'd be weird.


Not next too. _Inside_. Matryoshka style. :Small Amused:  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Fyraltari

Sorry for not posting here in a good while, I've had to deal with stuff (and I'm not really done, either).


Overall I think season 3 is a step down from season 2. The first couple of episodes are good enough but then it just starts... meandering? for half the season with Ziro's episode, the MAndalore episodes and the R2 and 3PO episode especially. And then the Mortis arc. *sigh* at least the anachronic order shenanigans seem over with. The Citadel and Trandoshan arcs are nice, but I kinda wish the season had ended on the Nightsister instead. You see Maul's face in the orb thingy and BAM, end of the season.

There seems to be an increased focus on Ahsoka as the main character of the show which is wise I think since she has the most potential of the cast. Still it's jarring they didn't show her get her second lightsaber. Was it in a companion comic or what? Also Ziro's dead, that's good. Also it seems like the "Anakin and Obi-Wan don't like each other" phase is well behind us.

The Nightsister arc was really the high point of the season, but like I said in the reviews of these episodes, they incidentally highlight how little plot progression there has been so far. The last two seasons should really have built on Ventress and Dooku's relationship (as well as her past) to have her betrayed at the beginning of this one and then this season would have had Savage as Dooku's right hand man until the final episode where Ventress turns him against Dooku.

This season introduced Tarkin and Talzin (huh, never noticed the similar names. Probably a coincidence) which are fine additions to the cast (I know they both show up some more), especially Tarkin as he will hopefully add some more "Republic =/= good" energy.

Moving forward, I hope they explain Talzin a bit more, because so far, she feels mostly like a plot device. What does _she_ want? Is she going to keep helping both Assaj and Savage even though they are at odds? Also, what is Ventress going to do with her life now, that it's established she can't kill Dooku?

I am bit surprised that Fives is our only survivor of Domino Squad as he was kind of the blandest (even his name is just taken from his matricule rather than a quirk). I have no idea what they intend to do with the character, if he even shows up again.

Apart from that, I don't have much to say. The lack of overall plot makes the different seasons kind of bland together.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Also, what is Ventress going to do with her life now, that it's established she can't kill Dooku?


There's an episode in season 4 directly about this.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 1: Water War*

Just watch this, it's way better.

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

We are told that "the aggressive squid-like quarren and their neighbours, the peaceful calamari" are having trouble co-existing. You know, just in case you weren't sure who to root for. To be precise, the Mon Cala king has just been stabbed to death and his heir, Lee-Char is a bit young to take over and his rule is contested by his quarren subjects (guess they're not actually neighbours). Padmé and her Jedi bodyguard Anakin* have been sent to avaoid a civil war. Well, another, smaller, civil war than the one they already have.

The local council/government-thingie is in session. The quarrens are tired of being ruled by mon cala kings while the calamari defend their privilege right to a king of their own species. Hey, guys, ever heard of this newfangled thing called democray? Or republic? Lee-char tries to assuage the quarrens' objections but he is shouted down by a shark-like nonhuman who serves as ambassador for the CIS. Guys, I think I know who murdered the king. He's here because the quarrens asked for his presence to counter the calamari's request for a Republic presence. Mon Cal is still part of the Republic, right? Because this sounds a bit treasonous to me. Amidala offers the Republic's help with whatever issues the quarrens face and they collectively boo her. Then the quarren leader and the Separatist ambassador declare they're done here and all the quarren leave without the assembly being dismissed. The quarren leader takes the time to offer his condoleances to Lee-Char, as his father was a friend of his. Sounds like an awkward friendship but hey, weirder things have happened.

The Republicans, along with Captain Ackbar (inevitable) go contact Yoda. Thei ship is still on the surface while the capital city is at the bottom of the ocean. Does the Republic not have _one_ undersea-worthy ship, what? they report that the civil war is inevitable. Well, mission failed then? Time to get Padmé back to the Senate and let the military handle this? No? The civilian is staying for the battle. And her bodyguard-husband who's whole deal is being afraid to lose her is just fine with that. Sure, why not, at this point. Whatever. Yoda suspects that Dooku is behind all this (geeze, what was your first clue? The separatist ambassador?) and Windu sends Master Fisto, Ahsoka and a bunch of clones to help as well as tasking Ackbar with preparing the mon cala for battle (I guess he's the Republic liaison).

Ackabar gets to the palace via what I think is a higher-pressure tube acting as public transportation, neat. He reports to the prince and local Senator that the army is ready and is named Lee-Char's bodyguard. He doesn't think "the boy" is ready to lead an army yet, but nobody is asking his opinion. Meanwhile Separatist transport ships are literally just dropping aquadroids in the water. The ambassador, who it turns out is a military commander named Temsel, reports to Dooku that their army is ready and the quarren have agreed to join the Spearatists once they have control of the planet. Dooku promises Temsel he will get to be in charge, though. King Lee-Char gives a milquetoast speech to his troops where he says he doesn't believe the quarren will attack. They immediately do. How the hell did they sneak up an entire army to the capital like that?

Ackbar looks throught the window and "It's an attack!" Well, that's not quite your line, but you'll get there. Ackabar leads Lee-char to the nearest unit of soldiers and asks for his orders. He doesn't know what to do so he oreders them to hold their ground. Anakin suggests taking him to safety, but Ackbar says that, as the king, only he can take that decision. Lee-Char overrules Skywalker and presses the attack. Temsel, as all good officers do, went into battle without any weapon, electing to headbutt his rifle-wielding ennemies to death. I guess there's a contest of tactical stupidity or something, because Ackbar decides to give a speech to his troops by _standing directly in front of their guns, his back turned to the ennemy that's currently shooting at them_. One of the finest military minds of the Galaxy Far Far Away, people. Also, he's leading the charge instead of staying by Lee-Char's side as bodyguard. That's a court-martial, right-there.

Lee-Char takes the two humans and three redshirts to a shortcut to get behind ennemy lines. Good plan says Anakin. I mean, I certainly would not foresee the ennemy leader delivering himself into my lap like that if I were Temsel, so, uh, props for originality? This brillinat plan is foiled by a piece of buiding falling on the tube and killing(?) the three calamari soldiers. Fortunately, Fisto and the Five-Oh-First** just arrived. The tide (hehe) of battle starts to turn, so Amidala goes to look for her colleague. Anakin and the king are immediately attacked. Anakin repels them, protecting Lee-Char. Ackbar stops dual-wielding like a maniac and gets to his king. "Hear that? They're cheering for you. -they're cheering for them.- Then make it for you. Come on! Lead!" and he hands him a rifle-harpoon-thing. He doesn't, by the way.

A quarren manages to take Anakin's helmet off. Oh no, it's out of reach, he's going to drown! Oh, if only he had some ability to grab objects with his mind! Ahsoka and her underwater bike save him. And he has the gals to say he had it under control. PAdmé call her husband, she's with senato Tills (the mon cala) but they're pinned and need help. He sends Ahsoka to the prince while he goes to the senators. She saves Lee-Char from Temsel (Lee-Char apparently can't aim to save his life. Literally.) and they flee. they get into one high-pressure tube with their speeder and Temsel, who is outside and somehow keeping up with them, decides to give himself a commotion by repeatedly slamming his head against the glass. He's not even hitting the same area, you'd think he would realize that's not gonna work! Some aquadroids arrive form the opposite direction and Ahsoka is forced to let the speeder go, crashing into them. The tube is still intact and temsel still can't get in, but for some reason the flow has stopped so they're not moving. A few mon cala spot Temsel as he finally manages to insert his head ito the tube. They score several hits but it doesn't seem to even tickle him. What is this guy made of? The people whose name we know escape while the sharkman slaughters the soldiers.

The Separatists retreat, which Anakin finds strange as they could have easily overrun them apparently. They're actually deploying secret weapon number eleventillion: the hydroids medusae, invincible half-machine hlaf-monsters. The Republicans gather up and Tills tells prince Lee-Char (wasn't he king before the battle?) to prepare the terms for a quarren surrender. Literally everybody but her think the quarrens will try another round, though. Abd indeedn here comes the most terrifying weapon of all of _Star Wars_, move aside, death star, the real meance is... huge yellow jellyfish standing (for lack of a better term) there menacingly without doing anything in particular. Lee-Char says they have no defense agaisnt those. I mean, you could try shooting them, I think. That's usually a good thing to try. Everybody points their weapon a the thing and ackbar tells thme not to fire until the Prince gives the command. And he doesn't. And doesn't. And doesn't. And doesn't. And doesn't. And doesn't. Like he literally let them swim until they are literally ontop of them before he does anything. While Ackbar jsut says "steady..." repeatedly. The shooting does nothing and the medusea start killing soldiers by touching them with their electric(?) tendrils.

The Seppies outflank the Republicans, of whom there are apparently like, thirty persons? Where did everybody go? The prince doesn't want to retreat but ackbar tells him now is really not the time. Fisto stays behind while the other flee and launches a speeder at a medusae, that hurts it apparently, so he flashes his signature sith-eating grin. Temsel meets the quarren leader who tells him his reputation is a bit exaggerated. "Exaggeration is a weapon of war. It is what helped deliver the ennemy into your hands." Huh, what is he talking about? Did I miss the part where that happened? Temsel manhandles him and threaten to kill him if he ever disobeys an order again (he apparently didn't put much effort in looking for the Republicans). Deeper down, the good guys, including Fisto and waiting. Ackbar tells Lee-Char his father would be proud of him and that "how to live to fight another day" is the hardest lesson a commander can learn.



*Wait, Anakin is still officially Padmé's bodyguard? I thought that ended with _Attack of the Clones_.
**Good name for a band?


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Well, it wasn't very good. Not bad really, but the battle was confusing and the episode seems to think I care a lot more about Lee-Char than I actually do.

Fisto didn't do much. Why include him if Anakin and Ahsoka are going to do all the work anyway?

This is one data-point for Lightsabers working just fine underwater. Has there ever been a consensus on that?


Next Time: *Gungan Attack.* I have a bad feeling about this.

----------


## Aeson

I believe the 'consensus' on lightsabers functioning underwater was "yes - if they're built for it."

----------


## Keltest

> I believe the 'consensus' on lightsabers functioning underwater was "yes - if they're built for it."


Indeed. They can be waterproofed, but it isnt the default.


And as far as the Republic not having underwater functioning ships... why would they? Space isnt filled with water.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Indeed. They can be waterproofed, but it isnt the default.
> 
> 
> And as far as the Republic not having underwater functioning ships... why would they? Space isnt filled with water.


It isn't filled with air either, doesn't stop them from having ships that can land without any issue. Seems to me it wouldn't be hard to make a ship that could dock at the calamari capital so they don't have to go all the way to the surface whenever they need to get back to their ship.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Does the Republic not have _one_ undersea-worthy ship, what?


*Spoiler: Gungan Attack*
Show

This becomes a plot point, as the title "Gungan Attack" might suggest.





> Temsel meets the quarren leader who tells him his reputation is a bit exaggerated. "Exaggeration is a weapon of war. It is what helped deliver the ennemy into your hands." Huh, what is he talking about? Did I miss the part where that happened?


He's exaggerating the exaggeration.




> I believe the 'consensus' on lightsabers functioning underwater was "yes - if they're built for it."


Seems likely; Saga Edition has the "waterproof casing" lightsaber accessory.

----------


## Keltest

> It isn't filled with air either, doesn't stop them from having ships that can land without any issue. Seems to me it wouldn't be hard to make a ship that could dock at the calamari capital so they don't have to go all the way to the surface whenever they need to get back to their ship.


There are some pretty substantial differences in preparing a ship to descend through atmosphere versus water. Beyond which, the Mon-Calamari have their own incredibly potent naval shipyards. Why would the republic need military ships to be able to enter their planet's oceans?

----------


## Peelee

> Next Time: *Gungan Attack.* I have a bad feeling about this.


You could lobbed one over the plate if you'd said you weren't afraid. 



> It isn't filled with air either, doesn't stop them from having ships that can land without any issue.





> [_Planet Express Ship_ is being pulled deep underwater]
> *Turanga Leela:* How many atmospheres can the ship withstand? 
> *Professor Farnsworth:*  Well, it's a spaceship, so between zero and one.

----------


## Jasdoif

> There are some pretty substantial differences in preparing a ship to descend through atmosphere versus water. Beyond which, the Mon-Calamari have their own incredibly potent naval shipyards. Why would the republic need military ships to be able to enter their planet's oceans?


Hm.  It just occurred to me that the Kaminoans might not have wanted the army they were creating for someone else to be effective against their own planet's terrain; and if I recall they subcontracted the ship construction for the army themselves.

----------


## Fyraltari

> There are some pretty substantial differences in preparing a ship to descend through atmosphere versus water.


Doubt any of it are beyond the GFFA's tech, though. A stronger hull than usual, a hydrodynamic shape and a water-worthy propulsions system. How hard can it be?




> Beyond which, the Mon-Calamari have their own incredibly potent naval shipyards. Why would the republic need military ships to be able to enter their planet's oceans?


I'm not talking about military ships, though. Padmé didn't need a military ship for this mission.

----------


## Peelee

> Hm.  It just occurred to me that the Kaminoans might not have wanted the army they were creating for someone else to be effective against their own planet's terrain; and if I recall they subcontracted the ship construction for the army themselves.


Just checked and new Canon kept KDY and CEC as the main shipyards for Republic navy. Which makes sense, since those were incredibly robust and Kamino wouldn't even have facilities as good as Sorosuub, as a quick example.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Originally Posted by Jasdoif
> 
> 
> Hm.  It just occurred to me that the Kaminoans might not have wanted the army they were creating for someone else to be effective against their own planet's terrain; and if I recall they subcontracted the ship construction for the army themselves.
> 
> 
> Just checked and new Canon kept KDY and CEC as the main shipyards for Republic navy.


A double-check of the details in old canon suggests the Kaminoans subcontracted the shipbuilding to Rothana Heavy Engineering, a subsidiary of KDY; there's no conflict here, hurray!

----------


## Keltest

> Doubt any of it are beyond the GFFA's tech, though. A stronger hull than usual, a hydrodynamic shape and a water-worthy propulsions system. How hard can it be?
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about military ships, though. Padmé didn't need a military ship for this mission.


Im sure they "could" design it, but there are like two planets, ever, where underwater battles happen, and one of them (Kamino) only has underwater combat by accident. Neither side planned for it. Ships are sufficiently expensive that you dont build them unless you know youre going to need them.

----------


## Peelee

> A double-check of the details in old canon suggests the Kaminoans subcontracted the shipbuilding to Rothana Heavy Engineering, a subsidiary of KDY; there's no conflict here, hurray!


Hooray indeed! I'm also amused that no matter who technically wins the contracts, KDY always actually does. Some things never change.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Im sure they "could" design it, but there are like two planets, ever, where underwater battles happen, and one of them (Kamino) only has underwater combat by accident. Neither side planned for it. Ships are sufficiently expensive that you dont build them unless you know youre going to need them.


Again, you seem to think I am talking about warships when I am not. I am talking about people ships, to go from one place to the other.

----------


## Peelee

> Again, you seem to think I am talking about warships when I am not. I am talking about people ships, to go from one place to the other.


I can't imagine it's a common enough need for most people to be worth the cost of doing it in all, or even most, ships. It's most likely a specialty feature that's added by request or in very specific markets.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I can't imagine it's a common enough need for most people to be worth the cost of doing it in all, or even most, ships. It's most likely a specialty feature that's added by request or in very specific markets.


Between the mon cal, quarren, gungan, Kit Fisto's people and sharkman's people that's five different species of amphibious sapients in this couple of episodes. There's also the bounty hunter that showed up a couple time, the kaminoans, the selkaths and I'm sure plenty others. And the opera singers from _Revenge of the Sith_ who sang from inside a bubble of water and so may not even be able to breathe air. There are quite a few species in the GFFA who live underwater and who presumably have the same needs for spacecrafts as everybody else. Ships that can go from space to underwater shouldn't be rare. Epsecially when, as Keltest pointed out The mon cal have famous shipyards, it'd be very odd for the ships of their design not to be suited to their needs.


All that to say that it seems very odd to me that the Republic's diplomatic corps couldn't find a ship that can go underwater for this mission.

----------


## Peelee

> Between the mon cal, quarren, gungan, Kit Fisto's people and sharkman's people that's five different species of amphibious sapients in this couple of episodes. There's also the bounty hunter that showed up a couple time, the kaminoans, the selkaths and I'm sure plenty others. And the opera singers from _Revenge of the Sith_ who sang from inside a bubble of water and so may not even be able to breathe air. There are quite a few species in the GFFA who live underwater and who presumably have the same needs for spacecrafts as everybody else. Ships that can go from space to underwater shouldn't be rare. Epsecially when, as Keltest pointed out The mon cal have famous shipyards, it'd be very odd for the ships of their design not to be suited to their needs.
> 
> 
> All that to say that it seems very odd to me that the Republic's diplomatic corps couldn't find a ship that can go underwater for this mission.


As you say, all these people are amphibious. Several (eg Gungans and Selkath) are notably reclusive. All of them that have spaceports have them land-based.

I do not believe their needs are what you believe their needs are.

----------


## Fyraltari

> As you say, all these people are amphibious.


Not (probably) the opera singers' species.



> Several (eg Gungans and Selkath) are notably reclusive.


There was one bounty hunting on Coruscant and two is a bit of a low threshold for "several".



> All of them that have spaceports have them land-based.


The mon cal clearly don't since Padmé hasn't parked her ride there.




> I do not believe their needs are what you believe their needs are.


Yeah, no, I'm pretty sure the people who live in the undersea capital would rather board their ships there rather than swim all the way to the surface. No-one like commuting, even in the GFFA.

----------


## Peelee

> Not (probably) the opera singers' species.


No evidence either way, but not a hill I particularly care about dying on regardless. 



> There was one bounty hunting on Coruscant and two is a bit of a low threshold for "several".


Two is a fine threshold for "several" out of what, five? If it was three I'd have used "the majority". 



> The mon cal clearly don't since Padmé hasn't parked her ride there.


They still do, they just also have water-based ones. I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying the need is far less than what you seem to be assuming.



> Yeah, no, I'm pretty sure the people who live in the undersea capital would rather board their ships there rather than swim all the way to the surface. No-one like commuting, even in the GFFA.


Apparently not, for the most part. Something something assumptions that fit the text, and all.

----------


## Fyraltari

> No evidence either way, but not a hill I particularly care about dying on regardless. 
> 
> Two is a fine threshold for "several" out of what, five? If it was three I'd have used "the majority".


Three out of nine is _not_ a majority.




> They still do, they just also have water-based ones. I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying the need is far less than what you seem to be assuming.
> 
> Apparently not, for the most part. Something something assumptions that fit the text, and all.


The text I'm reading has Padmé, Anakin and Ackbar having to swim from the capital to the surface to get to their ship. So either Padmé didn't think to bring a ship she could park in the city she was sent to (despite Anakin having his lightsaber gizmod up so it could work underwater) or ship that can go underwater are such a rarity that the galactic superpower can't afford one for the diplomats it sends to the planet of the people who build a lot of ships and keep their capital under the sea. Pick your poison.

----------


## Jasdoif

> All that to say that it seems very odd to me that the Republic's diplomatic corps couldn't find a ship that can go underwater for this mission.


Depends how much, if at all, they cared to wait for one to be available, is my best guess.  Worst case, _Consular_-class cruisers like the one that appears in this episode are known for being easy to modify; my best estimate (i.e. trusting a couple Saga Edition sourcebooks) is that it'd take a little over a week (and a million credits in parts) for two dozen mechanics to retrofit one with amphibious seals, so if they really *needed* it they could probably have managed it eventually.  So I assume time was the deciding factor here.

----------


## Keltest

I cant imagine that the Quarrans would allow a Republic ship of any sort to just chill in their capital either. Doubly so if theyve drunk the kool-aid the separatists are serving.

----------


## Peelee

> Three out of nine is _not_ a majority.


Indeed. Three out of five, however, is, and I was clearly and explicitly under the assumption of five examples there. I was wrong, yes, but the math was consistent.



> The text I'm reading has Padmé, Anakin and Ackbar having to swim from the capital to the surface to get to their ship. So either Padmé didn't think to bring a ship she could park in the city she was sent to (despite Anakin having his lightsaber gizmod up so it could work underwater) or ship that can go underwater are such a rarity that the galactic superpower can't afford one for the diplomats it sends to the planet of the people who build a lot of ships and keep their capital under the sea. Pick your poison.


Again, every amphibious race that we know has spaceports have air/ground spaceports. Why bother getting this super beefed up ship that can go underwater when it's not necessary?

----------


## Mechalich

Making a spaceship that can operate underwater is actually a significant engineering challenge. A submarine is reinforced to hold back water pressure and prevent it from crushing the ship, while a spacecraft has to hold air pressure in and keep it from escaping. These are effectively forces in opposition.

Now, it is still weird that the Republic units didn't bring an amphibious shuttle or similar vessel with them on the trip in order to tool around in the oceans, something that ought to be quite easy to do, however, that can be rationalized. Since the Mon Calamari are noted shipwrights, it may be their tradition to provide vehicles to their guests as a way of showing off their engineering prowess (in a sort of 'you don't tour the Ford factory driving a Chevrolet' kind of way). However, the sudden escalation of the conflict might have resulted in the conscription of all available vehicles to emergency military needs, leaving the diplomatic service without.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 2: Gungan Attack*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The narrator wins understatement of the century by stating the mon calamari/Republicans were "caught unprepared" by the quarren/Separatist assault. Dooku is talking to the quarren leader and the Separatist commander (whose name is "Tamson" actually) and telling them not to underestimate Lee-char who may become a symbol for the calamari to rally behind, regardless of his lack of actual leadership. H then orders the prisoners to be sent to work camps including the women and children. I guess they mean the population of the capital city and not the entire Mon Calamari population of the planet, but it isn't clear. Dooku also sends special reinforcement for Tamson to hold in reserve just in case.

Deep in the caves below the city, Fisto report to Yoda and Windu that the heroes have lost contact with all other groups of clones or calamari soldiers. The communication breaks up and they can't tell wether Yoda said he was going to send or not send reinforcements their way. Skywalker wants to leave the planet. The prince is reluctant but finally agrees it is best to leave. Back at the Temple, it turns out they simply don't have another regiment of water-combat capable clones right now, so they'll need to turn to somebody else for help on this one. An underwater race with an army close enough to help. Kenobi and Yoda agree on Naboo and the gungans.

Padmé notices a lot of hostiles between them and their ship. "It's no problem, I just hope you're a fast swimmer. -Says the boy who grew up on a desert planet." That's a good point, when did Anakin learn to swim? Are there pool in the Jedi Temple, did Obi-Wan give him lessons? Firsto volunteers to create a distraction. Which he does by attacking a prioner convoy and stealing a their mini-subs (he sends it below to his allies). However, Tamson had foreseen this plan and the ship explodes as they arrive directly below it. Lee-char point out that they're too exposed and have to go back below. Anakin orders everybody to cling to some debris and let their weight carry them down. I wonder how much oxygen the air-breathers have left in their tanks. How long have they been down there again? Maybe their suits can somewhow evacuate the CO2 and extract the O2 from the surrounding water? Fisto and Skywalker banter for a bit, but they are interupted by the prince and Ackbar who want to split up. Ahsoka, Fisto and the clones go with the prince, Anakin, Ackbar and Padmé with Senator Tills. Ackbar says Lee-Char is their only hope. Fortunately the ship's debris pass throught the city without falling on any building.

Yoda calls the gungans and explains the situation. Looks like Boss Nass is no longer the king around there, dunno what happened to him. The new boss needs some thinking time to make a decision. Jar Jar, being opposed to thinking as a matter of principle, insists they go help Amidala immediately as she's helped them before. I mean, both time I can think of she had perfectly self-serving reasons, but hey, gift horses and all that. "Thinking time done." well that was quick. They agree. Just as Ahsoka's group is sitting down and contemplating their options, a convoy of prisoners _en route_ for the work camps passes by. Fisto and Tano explains that these are to become slaves and that that is the future of both mon cala and quarrens should the separatist wins: "all slaves for Count Dooku." We went a long way from "He couldn't assassinate anyone. It's not in his character" haven't we?

Ahsoka tries to explain the virtues of patience and inspiring others to Lee-Char. Since he doesn't think he can do that if his people don't know he's alive, he sounds some horn he apparently had and makes a short speech to the prisoners telling them they won't stay in chains long. Anakin's group is still in the capital and he decides to destroy the interplanetary scanners to ensure the Separatists couldn't detect the reinforcements, should any come. So he destroys the building's support with nothing but the Force, making it collapse. I think that's the most impressive display of raw power we've seen from anyone in this show. In fact I don't think I've seen Anakin/Vader ever do something that big. when Tamson learns their radars are gone he immediately orders to prepare for an attack. While he goes looking for the prince and the Jedi. This and the arrival of the gungan laters point to the seppies not having a fleet orbiting the planet, which seems like an oversight. Come to think of it, what happened to the Republican fleet that brought Kit, Ahsoka and the clones there?

Republic ships arrive with the gungans who make a several-dozen-meter high dive into the water. Pretty tough people, those gungans. They rescue the Prince's group from the guards and Skywalker's from a bunch of Medusae. Jar Jar and Anakin are happy to see each other but Binks can't hear anything because of something I can't decipher through his speech pattern. Nevertheless, I am confident it is dumb. Lee-Char grabs a gun and leads the charge. The quarren leader tell Tamson they're overwhelmed and he wants to reatreat but the sharkman refuses, upon being informed of the positions of the two jedi groups, he concludes that the Prince must be in the one that's freeing the prisoners. wrong reasonning, but correct conclusion, remember kids, the fallacy fallacy is a fallacy for a reason! So he commits Dooku's reinforcements there. These turn out to be some of the spearatists squid-like space/waterships which he has rotate in order to create a whirlpool in the middle of the battlesfield. Why would that inconvienience the republicans more than you? Maybe because the aquadroids are heavier? I don't know.

Tamson launches himself at Lee-Char. Ahsoka intervenes but he distracts her with some aquadroids to resume the "fight" with the Prince. Kit Fisto intervenes and apparently sucker punches him so hard it unhinges his jaw, but losing his lightsaber in the process. He orders Ahsoka and the Prince to escape while he holds tamson off. Before he can actually fight him, though, he is surrounded by aquadroids. Some more squids try the same trick on Anakin's group. Ackbar and him attack the main squid. Skywalker saws one of its tentacle off, this sends it spinning into a bulding. Tills, Skywalker, Binks, Amidala, Fisto and Ackabar are captured. Tamson yell at his troops to find the Prince.Lee-Char wonders how to win the war. Ahsoka tells him she understand his fear but he mustn't make deicision out of it. They leave as he promises to unify mon cala again.


*Spoiler: My thouhgts*
Show

I am honestly surprised this is a three-parter. The gungan's arrival seemed like it would conclude the battle. As it turns out they didn't matter much. The villains' victory feels really unearned there. The gungans kinda disappeared when the squids started spinning despite dropping on the seppies by surprise and destroying the Medusae (1st place for "most useless Separatist secret weapon by the way). Especially since I have a hard time buying that Fisto couldn't fight his way out of his predicament. I get Tamson being a problem for Ahsoka last time since she had to protect the Prince ontop of being a Padawan and fighting in an unfamiliar environnment, but Kit Fisto? His lightsaber is _right there_, he could totally shove the droids away, get it back and turn Tamson into sushi before he has time to say "why did I decide to go to battle unarmed, again?"

Odd we had no mention of the murder of Lee-Char's father, but come on, we all know it was Tamson. Bet that "reveal" is what gets the quarren leader to change side. Turns out you can make Jar-Jar tolerable if you give him under four lines of dialog. Still not a welcome sight. Speaking of sights, man is this episode dark. All blacks and murky greens. Add an underwater storm to that and that final battle was neither easy or nice to look at.


Next up: *Prisoners*

----------


## Sapphire Guard

This is one of those arcs where 'why are the main characters here?'  comes to mind. Gotta be more than one aquatic Jedi in the temple.

----------


## Fyraltari

> This is one of those arcs where 'why are the main characters here?'  comes to mind. Gotta be more than one aquatic Jedi in the temple.


Yeah I feel like this should have just been a Kit Fisto mission.

And we know of one other amphibian Jedi, a mon cala even. Fisto's former padawan who died fighting Grievous. Maybe it was just the two of them?

----------


## Dargaron

The Jedi Temple actually _does_ have a pretty nice pool setup if the old _Jedi Apprentice_ books are still valid. Obi-wan's best friend as a Padawan was a Mon Cala, and there was an action scene in _Temple Under Siege_ where the enemy saboteur causes a turbolift running through the ceiling above the pool to derail, and it has to be evacuated via maintenance scaffolds. The climax of that book also hinges on the fact that lightsabers fizzle out if they come into contact with liquid water, since the final battle is a lightsaber duel in the temple's Water Purification Facility, and both sides try to entice the other into accidentally disarming themselves.

There's also a spiffy meditation garden where there's a bombing attempt on Yoda while he's walking over a river on a footbridge.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 3: Prisoners*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Anakin, Kit, Jar Jar and Padmé are taken to prison, where Tamson greets them calling binks a "fumbling amphibian" which is odd coming from another amphibian. He has the two non-jedi hold by some sort of droid-cages and the two Jedi thrown into cages made of three electric eels bound together. I mean, points for creativity but I have the feeling they could just launch themselves through and get away even if it'd hurt a little.
*Spoiler: Feels a bit like this*
Show



when they refuse to tell where the Prince is, a quarren prods the eels who, in turn zap the prisoners.

Meanwhile, Ahsoka and Lee-Char are hiding from the separatists. The Prince wishes his father were there to unite with the quarrens (whose leader is called Nossor Ri). He says their two people had a difficult but respectful relationship until Tamson arrived. Urgh, more on that later. Lee-Char wants to lead the mon cala, clones and gungan united with the quarrens against the Separatists and he reckons he'll need Ackbar's help for that. 
The Prince and the Padawan (good name for a _Star Wars_ fairy tale?) have reached a prison camp. Was this a thing the mon cala already had? Else how did you know where to find it? They sneak in with a bunch of guards; They meet a bunch of prisoners who Lee-Char tells not to despair and Monk (a clone serving under Tano) takes them to Ackbar and Tills. 

Tamson and Ri report to Dooku that the Jedi won't tell them where to find Lee-Char. Ri doesn't think that matters: now that they have won the quarren should take the lead and rebuild. The Sith rebukes him, saying that the quarren have sworn allegiance to the Separatists and a reveals that a bunch of karkarodon (Tamson's species) soldiers have arrived to garrison the planet. Also Dooku called Nossor "Senator Ri", was he a Senator in the Republic (I don't think he was the guy who told Padmé he only cared about his constituents) or has he just bee promoted to Senator in  the separatist's own Senate? Tamson gets back to the prioners and tell them he doesn't personally care if the prince is found (he'd torture them either way) but Dooku insists, so he breaches Padmé's helmet, which slowly fills it with water.

Ackbar is wounded and doesn't believe they can fight anymore but Lee-cjhar explains to him his plan of allying with the quarrens. Ackbar refuses and accuses the quarrens of assassinating the previous king but Lee-Char is certain it was Tamson. I mean, mee too but for Doylist reasons. What makes him so sure? Lee-Char says he'll talk to Nossor Ri and Ackbar and Monk agree to marshall the mon cala and republicans respectively. Then a bunch of droids appear to arrest Lee-Char who uses this opportunity to demand a meeting with their superiors. No "take me to your leader", though.

Back with the others Tamson accepts that the Jedi don't actually know where to find the Prince. Something that becomes irrelevant when he's told of the arrest and he has the Prince taken to the throne room. He wants Lee-Char to see him "in his rightful place, as ruler of this world." Nossor says that wasn't the deal he made with Dooku. And Tamson agrees: it was the deal _he_ made. Skywalker tells Tamson he has to save Amidala. "No, I don't." Good line. Ri looks sad but leaves without doing anything. Kit and Anakin use the Force to push the water away from Padmé's helmet. That's a neat use of the Force, I like it. But it's temporary at best and an eel just bit anakin anyway. So Jar Jar spits at Padmé's helmet which seals her helmet. He calls it Gungan waterproofing and that's why they swim so good. ****'s sake.

Lee-Char and Ahsoka are taken to Tamson and Nossor Ri. Tamson is being a prick and calls Lee-Char's people his slaves. Lee-char says his people is both the mon cala and the quarren. He appeals to Nossor, saying the Separatists will just exploit them to no end. When Ri doesn't answer, Tamson mocks them both and call the quarrens gutless. Tamson then says he's having Lee-Char publicly executed. Anakin and Co are taken to the execution as are all the prisoners apparently. Ahsoka tells Anakin it's all part of the plan but it's out of their hands for now. "I'm not sure I like this plan after all." While Tamson is grandstanding, quarrens go through the prisoners distributing weapons and telling them they are with them. Just as teh Prince about to be killed, Ri launches himself at him and spreads an ink cloud to confuse the karkarodons. Lots of amphibian species showing abilities I didn't know they had today.

Everybody starts shooting and Ahsoka frees her colleagues (to my relief she does so by releasing the eels from their bonds rather than cutting them which would probably be easier but certainly less Jedi-like). Big battle scene, the good guy manage to crash the calmar ships. Tamson finally decides to use weapons: knife that he stabs people with and then they explode. Congratulations, you took the second most basic weapon there is (after the venerable club) and make it less effective by turning  tit single use. _Bravo_. Tamson gloats to Lee-char about killing his father so the audience is sure, I guess. The Prince stabs him in the shoulder with one of his knives and then shoots it making him explode. At the first the camera turns away from the corpse but then we get a lovely shot of the karkarodon's severed head. Brutal. apparently he was the last separatist standing because everybody starts celebrating their victory.

Cut to Lee-Char's crowing.  With Nossor Ri putting the crown on the new king's head and pledging the loyalty of the quarren to him while he pledges to serve all people of mon cala. Good, the quarren have learned never to question their mon cala overlords, it seems. Urgh.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show


This wasn't a very good opening arc. It felt very padded (the entire second episode could be cut without losing anything of value) and crowded: three different Jedi plus Padmé plus Ackabr plus Jar JAr plus Senator Tills and the main character is Lee-Char is way too many people. Two episodes with just Kit Fisto Ackbar and Lee-Char would have made this work better, I think. I am also dispointed that given a whole additional dimension to have battles in the best they can come up with is people rushing at one other in a straight line while firing it. I want vehicles, artillery, more creative things!

Once again this episode is not very nice to look at with how dark it is. I know what they are going for (symbolism and all) but still it looks ugly and makes it like the Separatists just don't want to pay their electricity bills.

The second episode was entirely pointless. The gungans didn't amount to anything in the end. Even Jar Jar's one good thing (saving PAdmé) would have probably better spent by giving it to Nossor Ri to make is switching side later on more believable.

So that resolution... Oh boy. Well first of, the separatists suck at imperialism. The trick ts to concentrate all the power in the hands of your native allies to widen the gap between them and the other locals so that they couldn't turn against you in the future. That was already old hat when Caesar did it! By bringing in the karkarodons and acting like pricks the Separatists just gave the quarrens cause to turn agaisnt them and rally with the mon cala against the common ennemy. Of course, it's a children show, the unsubtle approach may be better.
But the real issue I have is: they're back to where they were in the beginning. Like why did the quarresn join in with the Separatists? Because they are always ruled by a mon cala king and they don't feel like, they can trust that system. I agree with that! They live with the mon cala but are obviously not equal to them. But this episode is all like "no they're wrong, it was all fine it was all Tamson that lied to them and tricked them. There are no real issues bewteen the species." What did Tamson go door to door and tol every quarren "hey did you know you're oppressed actually" and they all fell for it despite the situation being. just. fine. actually!? The mon cala will never abuse their dominant position against the quarren, just give them all the power and trust the king when he says he serves "all the people". Urghhhh, give me a break.
You know what would have been better? If Lee-Char had changed the staus quo at the end. taken some sort of action so that they don't end up in this situation one generation down the line. He could have abdicated the crown so they could hold elections or name Nossor Ri co-monarch or decreted that the crown would pass fromm the mon cala to the quarren and back every generation or something.


Next up: *Shadow Warrior*, hmm... Darth Maul?

----------


## Keltest

I dont have much to say about this arc. I dont think there was a good reason to have Anakin and Padme here other than for them to get captured later, and their captivity did nothing for the plot, since we know none of those characters are going to be killed or even debilitated.

----------


## Mechalich

> I dont have much to say about this arc. I dont think there was a good reason to have Anakin and Padme here other than for them to get captured later, and their captivity did nothing for the plot, since we know none of those characters are going to be killed or even debilitated.


Even though it was season 4 by this point, there's very much a sense that the production team still didn't trust themselves to run a whole arc without at least some major PT characters involved. In particular, I feel like throughout the series there was some kind of internal mandate to push screentime for Padme whenever it was even remotely possible, generally to the series' detriment. I mean, Catherine Taber's Padme is vastly superior to Natalie Portman's Padme, but her character still has limited function unless specific political circumstances arise. Further, while TCW's constant use of Anakin really helped to flesh out his character and ultimately helps to justify his actions in RotS, the use of Padme in TCW failed to accomplish anything along those lines.

----------


## Jasdoif

> So that resolution... Oh boy. Well first of, the separatists suck at imperialism. The trick ts to concentrate all the power in the hands of your native allies to widen the gap between them and the other locals so that they couldn't turn against you in the future. That was already old hat when Caesar did it! By bringing in the karkarodons and acting like pricks the Separatists just gave the quarrens cause to turn agaisnt them and rally with the mon cala against the common ennemy. Of course, it's a children show, the unsubtle approach may be better.
> But the real issue I have is: they're back to where they were in the beginning. Like why did the quarresn join in with the Separatists? Because they are always ruled by a mon cala king and they don't feel like, they can trust that system. I agree with that! They live with the mon cala but are obviously not equal to them. But this episode is all like "no they're wrong, it was all fine it was all Tamson that lied to them and tricked them. There are no real issues bewteen the species." What did Tamson go door to door and tol every quarren "hey did you know you're oppressed actually" and they all fell for it despite the situation being. just. fine. actually!? The mon cala will never abuse their dominant position against the quarren, just give them all the power and trust the king when he says he serves "all the people". Urghhhh, give me a break.
> You know what would have been better? If Lee-Char had changed the staus quo at the end. taken some sort of action so that they don't end up in this situation one generation down the line. He could have abdicated the crown so they could hold elections or name Nossor Ri co-monarch or decreted that the crown would pass fromm the mon cala to the quarren and back every generation or something.


To be (somewhat) fair, "the people who offered to free us only wanted to enslave us for themselves" could have been made into a good point, if the three-parter hadn't been wasted on padding and/or combat....




> Even though it was season 4 by this point, there's very much a sense that the production team still didn't trust themselves to run a whole arc without at least some major PT characters involved.


Yeah, they wouldn't show that sort of confidence (and the corresponding talent behind it) until the next season.

----------


## Keltest

What the arc really needed is to demonstrate what the Quarran get out of the deal, IMO. They want self determination, but their leader was also close friends with the Mon Cala king, so they cant have been that much worse off or ignored.

----------


## Fyraltari

> To be (somewhat) fair, "the people who offered to free us only wanted to enslave us for themselves" could have been made into a good point, if the three-parter hadn't been wasted on padding and/or combat....





> What the arc really needed is to demonstrate what the Quarran get out of the deal, IMO. They want self determination, but their leader was also close friends with the Mon Cala king, so they cant have been that much worse off or ignored.


It would have been a good occasion to show that the Republics had flaws and to make a nuanced point about violent/reformist reactions to injustices.




> Yeah, they wouldn't show that sort of confidence (and the corresponding talent behind it) until the next season.


The season after which the show got cancelled the first time around, yes?

----------


## Jasdoif

> The season after which the show got cancelled the first time around, yes?


Yes.  I would, however, be remiss not to mention what I recently discovered: the show's air time was also moved for the season, from prime-time on Friday to early morning on Saturday.  Historically (for broadcast television, anyway), this type of move was done to produce dropping audience ratings (due to smaller television audience numbers at the time slot) to cite when cancelling a show; it was likely doomed before the first episode of the season aired.

----------


## Kornaki

Maybe that's why they felt so good about doing off the wall plots, since they knew the show was doomed anyway.

----------


## Mechalich

> Maybe that's why they felt so good about doing off the wall plots, since they knew the show was doomed anyway.


No, because they were continually working on significantly more content at the time, some of which became Season 6 and later portions of Season 7 (the Bad Batch arc most notably) while other material was converted into other media (such as the novel _Dark Disciple_). 

The cancellation was rather a result of the acquisition of Star Wars by Disney from Lucasfilm and the various complications regarding ongoing projects surrounding that. Notably, the same team - production, animation, even voice talent, the works - that produced TCW moved over almost whole cloth into the production of Rebels almost immediately.

----------


## Jasdoif

> It would have been a good occasion to show that the Republics had flaws and to make a nuanced point about violent/reformist reactions to injustices.


Been thinking about this...while true, three things come to mind:

As I believe you've noted before, the show's target audience is young enough that "nuance" is almost certainly going to be wasted on their attention to detail.The whole overarching theme of the Clone Wars period, basically, is that the Republic is rotting on the inside while the Confederacy is rotten on the outside; most instances of the external conflict between them boils down to "Confederacy bad, so Republic good" even _before_ it gets exaggerated to cartoonish levels for the...cartoon.To really bring home the point about injustice, you'd ideally show the state of affairs with Lee-Char's father _before_ he was assassinated, to establish that there's more to it than simply who the ruler happens to be.  Instead, the show does its usual "_in medias res_ with narrated preamble" thing and thus opens onto the council conflict, which frames the Quarrens' primary objection as Lee-Char's general inexperience (due to his relatively-obvious age); with the comments about the governmental arrangement relegated to what are effectively offscreen hecklers.  And that primary objection _is_ addressed throughout the three episodes, as Lee-Char learns and pushes himself to dispel the doubts.

Don't get me wrong, with three episodes' worth of time I think this could have been written to reasonably accommodate _both_ Lee-Char's growth and the state of the planet's governance (I mean, the "main characters guide secondary character through their character development to end a nascent war" thing was done *much* better in Trespass, and that was a single episode); but I can see why this arc might have gone the way it did.  (Why it took so _long_ to get through, I'm not so sure about)

----------


## Fyraltari

> Been thinking about this...while true, three things come to mind:
> 
> As I believe you've noted before, the show's target audience is young enough that "nuance" is almost certainly going to be wasted on their attention to detail.The whole overarching theme of the Clone Wars period, basically, is that the Republic is rotting on the inside while the Confederacy is rotten on the outside; most instances of the external conflict between them boils down to "Confederacy bad, so Republic good" even _before_ it gets exaggerated to cartoonish levels for the...cartoon.To really bring home the point about injustice, you'd ideally show the state of affairs with Lee-Char's father _before_ he was assassinated, to establish that there's more to it than simply who the ruler happens to be.  Instead, the show does its usual "_in medias res_ with narrated preamble" thing and thus opens onto the council conflict, which frames the Quarrens' primary objection as Lee-Char's general inexperience (due to his relatively-obvious age); with the comments about the governmental arrangement relegated to what are effectively offscreen hecklers.  And that primary objection _is_ addressed throughout the three episodes, as Lee-Char learns and pushes himself to dispel the doubts.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, with three episodes' worth of time I think this could have been written to reasonably accommodate _both_ Lee-Char's growth and the state of the planet's governance (I mean, the "main characters guide secondary character through their character development to end a nascent war" thing was done *much* better in Trespass, and that was a single episode); but I can see why this arc might have gone the way it did.  (Why it took so _long_ to get through, I'm not so sure about)


I disagree with your first point. Subtlety is often missed by the young, but nuance, as long as it's clearly shown works. For the rest, yeah, a major rewrite would have been necessary, but that would be more feature than bug, in my opinion.

*Season 4, Episode 4: Shadow Warrior*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The war exacerbates tensions on Naboo and people are worried the gungans will join the Separatists, so Padmé and Anakin are sent to make that not happen. Come on, we just did that plot! They meat with everybody's favourite character, Jar Jar Binks. *Big sigh* The gungan leader, Boss Lyoni (What happened to Nass?) has given "muy fiery speeches" and is calling for a march on Theed because he blames the Naboo for "everything". Both Padmé and Binks immediately state that it's not true. Isn't it though? (Okay, probably not _everything_.)

Indeed, as they arrive, Lyoni is adressing a huge crowd of at least seven people with the most obvious monotone voice ever. As everybody leaves Lyoni, Anakin eyes an advisor of his who has a bone in his nose, is all hunched over and has sinister music about him so you know he's the bad guy. Padmé starts pleading with him but he rebukes her. Thankfully the two humans immediately spots that he sounds like he's under someone's influence. Or just under the influence, maybe. Skywalker Force-pulls his glowing necklace which frees his mind. It was given to him by Minister Rish Lu, who has ancient gungan mystical powers the episode will never explain.

Lu is confering with Dooku, and we can see that his eyelids bulge out to make him fleshy eyebrows even though his eyes are on stalks. Repulsive. They're just recapping their plan of a joint gungan/Separatist attack on Theed in case either of them forgot, I guess. Lyoni decides to confront him alone which Anakin agress to because he's a dumbass, I guess. Lu tries to control Lyoni again and when the humans intervene he sicks a couple commando droids on them. In the confusion, Lu stabs Lyoni and escapes.

Lyoni is taken to the hospital, where I'm pretty sure the nurse is a reused model of Peppi from a couple seasons ago. He's not in danger but he's unconscious and hasn't called off the attack yet (so not march in the sense of "protest, heh?). Jar Jar puts on Lyoni's hat of office for no reason and the others realize they look suspiciously alike (indeed, two episodes ago I though Lyoni was a surprisingly competent Jar Jar until Jar Jar intervened). So they decide a little identity theft should get the army to stand down. Just hope that nurse in the background doesn't tell anyone.

Lu tells the army Lyoni is dead and to honour his last command they will march on Theed. The soldiers start chanting "Death to the Naboo!" Pretty quick. Jar Jar makes a bad speech and officially cancel the attack. He also orders Rish Lu arrested, but he escapes with Skywalker in tow. And just at that moment a Separatist barge comes in and demands that Lyoni talks with their general about the cancelled attack. How do they already know? And Jar Jar is taken to an office (inside the transport ship?) where he meets Grievous. The general apparently doesn't know that Lyony isn't actually allied with them. Did Dooku not tell him or did he not pay attention to the briefing? Also some "cring comedy". Great. When Grievous says he's going to attack the Naboo regardless, Jar Jar tells the gungan general who was with him to go do the thing.

Said general then leaves and calls Padmé to tell her what's happening. She tells him to capture Grievous. What's her plan to deal with the Separatist army? Use the fact that the droids still think they're allies and tell the droid commander to shut the entire army down.


...


















*THIS ACTUALLY WORKS!*

Greivous finally figures out he's not actually talking to Boss Lyoni, but in the time it takes for him to posture, Binks manages to leave the room. Grievous follows him and his surrounded by the entire gungan army. who proceeds to attack him by group of two or threes rather than just charge him; The generals end up dueling with the. entire. freaking. army. spectating. until Grievous stabs his opponent. "How does it feel to die? - Not die, sacrifice." and he rams his spear inside Grievous' torso while Binks and the others lob those purple balls of ligthning they have at him. Okay so two things: First, we have found a dumber gungan than Jar Jar. Congratulations. second: how did Grievous survive? He's been empaled through his remaining organs and his circuits fried. he really ought to be dead.

Meanwhile, Dooku is hiding inside Rish Lu's secret lab, one of these giant hindu-like statues the Naboo have, that looks nothing like a lab. was this operation really so So important they needed both Dooku AND Grievous on the field? Somehow, he heard about Grievous's situation and is telling Sidious who orders him to capture Skywalker and exchange the prisoners because Grievous his critical to his plans for the Clone War. I would have thought he was replaceable, myself. "How can you be certain the Republic will trade the Grievous for Skywalker?" Dude, you are talking to the supreme Chancellor of the Republic, here. He just says he has no doubt Amidala will agree. Dooku orders Lu (who's been driving for a long while) to lure Skywalker to him.

He does so. Dooku kills Lu after calling him a fool. Also he calls Skywalker "young master" and that really pisses me off, he'd be the last person in the galaxy to give him undue respect. Anakin asks him why he brought the war to Naboo. Dooku replies that the war started there years ago and that the Sith control everything. Did no one tell Anakin Darth Maul was a Sith? Also, no the war didn't start there in TPM, the events of that movie were largely irrelevant. Also, why would Dooku care about that? Also that doesn't answer the question. They fight. Anakin does better than you'd expect, but Dooku has magnaguards with him and the Jedi Knight is overwhelmed. still the count is noticeably out of breath.

Back with the gungans, Lyoni comes to just as Dooku calls with Anakin's phone. He lays down his terms and gives Amidala one hour to think it over. She hesitates but Jar Jar and Lyoni convince her to go through with it. They meet with an inexplicable second separatist fleet. Also the Naboo Queen is here for some reason. Grievous was locked in with special cuffs (don't they know that's the Separatist world!?), some kind of shperical force-fields that surround his head and hans and are bound together. A tad silly. Skywalker in dragged on the ground and exchanged for Grievous. One droid is courteous enough to toss in his lightsaber as well. Lyoni and the queen congratulate Bink for stopping a Naboo/gungan war for the second time.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

So who was the Shadow warrior? Rish Lu? Grievous? Dooku? Anakin? Jar Jar?
this episode is really weird. It starts as a retread of the very previous arc but worse and with Jar Jar and then two-thirds in switches gears with the two captures. I thought "okay maybe this is a weird beginning to a rescue mission arc, they'll have to save Anakin next episode" but nope, it's settled immediately.

This is a new low for the Separatists, Grievous especially, really going to have a hard time taking him seriously next time this show will try presenting him as a threat. Also after three seasons of having Skywalker and Grievous dance around each other to not invalidate their first meeting in ROTS, I guess they just gave up on that? Cause Grievous definitely did get a good look at Anakin at the end, there.

Please, no more Jar Jar episodes.



Next up: *Mercy Mission*

----------


## Sapphire Guard

Dooku showing up in person on Naboo will never not be stupid.

----------


## Mechalich

I've always wondered if there was some kind of mandate for a certain number of Jar-Jar episodes in the series, because he sure seems to show up with distressing regularity and even when other characters manage to route their stories around him semi-successfully his very presence cripples episodes and whole arcs. Then again, Filoni seems to have a fondness for periodic 'kiddie' episodes that aren't really connected to anything and really crank up the cheese meter (Rebels has a couple of these each season, usually featuring droid characters). I think maybe there was an occasional need to pump out an episode in a hurry and someone's dumb idea that they'd been pushing for ages finally got approved when that happened.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Dooku showing up in person on Naboo will never not be stupid.


He does it again?



> I've always wondered if there was some kind of mandate for a certain number of Jar-Jar episodes in the series, because he sure seems to show up with distressing regularity and even when other characters manage to route their stories around him semi-successfully his very presence cripples episodes and whole arcs. Then again, Filoni seems to have a fondness for periodic 'kiddie' episodes that aren't really connected to anything and really crank up the cheese meter (Rebels has a couple of these each season, usually featuring droid characters). I think maybe there was an occasional need to pump out an episode in a hurry and someone's dumb idea that they'd been pushing for ages finally got approved when that happened.


Are there many more Jar Jar episodes? Because, I've had more than enough "meessa", "youssa" and "bombad" for a lifetime.

----------


## Mechalich

> Are there many more Jar Jar episodes? Because, I've had more than enough "meessa", "youssa" and "bombad" for a lifetime.


I believe the only remaining Jar Jar appearances are two episodes in Season 6, which, if I recall correctly, was the Jar Jar affiliated plot that sucked the least (and, funny coincidence, the Wookieepedia page regarding those episodes suggests there was a pro-Jar Jar mandate from Lucas himself, so that's a mystery solved).

----------


## Fyraltari

> I believe the only remaining Jar Jar appearances are two episodes in Season 6, which, if I recall correctly, was the Jar Jar affiliated plot that sucked the least (and, funny coincidence, the Wookieepedia page regarding those episodes suggests there was a pro-Jar Jar mandate from Lucas himself, so that's a mystery solved).


*Angrily shakes fist at the Sky*

*Luuucaaaaaaasssss!*

----------


## McNum

> *Angrily shakes fist at the Sky*
> 
> *Luuucaaaaaaasssss!*


I honestly enjoyed those episodes in season 6. Like they finally figured out what to do with Jar Jar to make him work.

*Spoiler: Season 6*
Show

A Jar Jar Binks and Mace Windu buddy cop adventure! Think about those two playing off each other.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

You've got to expect the occasional episode aimed at kids in, y'know, a kids show.

----------


## Fyraltari

> You've got to expect the occasional episode aimed at kids in, y'know, a kids show.


"It's for kids" is no excuse for poor quality. Quite the opposite.

----------


## Jasdoif

> I disagree with your first point. Subtlety is often missed by the young, but nuance, as long as it's clearly shown works.


In general, yes.  However the show has not inspired much confidence in its ability or willingness to be less direct with something important.  Like with Tamson spelling out that he has his own deal with Dooku and that he _already_ finds the Quarrens to be more slaves than the Mon Calamari.  (Compare "I am altering the deal.  Pray I don't alter it further").




> this episode is really weird. It starts as a retread of the very previous arc but worse and with Jar Jar and then two-thirds in switches gears with the two captures. I thought "okay maybe this is a weird beginning to a rescue mission arc, they'll have to save Anakin next episode" but nope, it's settled immediately.


Does anyone else get the impression this was originally _two_ episodes, that were (c)rushed together after the previous arc stole got a third episode?




> Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard
> 
> 
> Dooku showing up in person on Naboo will never not be stupid.
> 
> 
> He does it again?


*Spoiler: Later this season*
Show

Yes.  It's much more sensical there, but that's a low bar.





> Because, I've had more than enough "meessa", "youssa" and "bombad" for a lifetime.


Supply Lines is probably the best of the Jar-Jar episodes; Jar-Jar the idiot savant with an extremely specific skillset is much more tolerable than Jar-Jar the idiot who lucks his way through everything.  A show with a wildly different tone/setting could possibly make better use of a Jar-Jar-like character....




> Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard
> 
> 
> You've got to expect the occasional episode aimed at kids in, y'know, a kids show.
> 
> 
> "It's for kids" is no excuse for poor quality. Quite the opposite.


Indeed; see, for example, the (original) _Teen Titans_ animated series.  Also, doesn't being a kids show mean all/most of the episodes are aimed at kids?

----------


## Sapphire Guard

Is it bad quality, though, or is it just lighthearted and silly? My impression of Jar Jar is that he's doing exactly what the writers want him to do, not that it's some kind of failure.

I cannot confirm or deny Dooku, but honestly there's no way he should be here at all. I mean, what if he's caught? Trolling Anakin is not a good enough reason.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Is it bad quality, though, or is it just lighthearted and silly? My impression of Jar Jar is that he's doing exactly what the writers want him to do, not that it's some kind of failure.


_Phantom Menace_ is 22 years old. The children it was targeted at are adults now. Do you know any of them who remember Jar Jar fondly? Because I don't. Yet people remember _Pingu_ fondly, or a lot of other stuff they watched when they were children that was actually good.

What's Jar Jar's deal? He talks weirdly and acts wacky and that's it. There's nothing here but an accent and slapstick*, it may make you laugh once, but that's it.  Comedy is an art, a difficult one, you've got to understand your audience and what makes them tick to subvert it. Just going "woo, look at the wacky accidents!" with no depth or effort isn't good enough. If comedy were food, Jar Jar would be bland, flavorless, unfullfilling junk food.

*And I'm being generous here by calling that slapstick.

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

I think with Jar Jar, the producers wanted to see. "Can we save this character" Clone Wars series Anakin is way better then movie Anakin. And Ahsoka was hated but people came to lover her. Lucas basically cut him from Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. Maul went from a one note near mute bad-guy to a tragic Shakespearean villain. 

Personally I thought Jar-Jar should have appeared in Rebels, but a far grimmer character who doesn't talk because as the story says the Empire cut out his tongue.(he actually cut it off himself.)




> _Phantom Menace_ is 22 years old. The children it was targeted at are adults now. Do you know any of them who remember Jar Jar fondly? Because I don't. Yet people remember _Pingu_ fondly, or a lot of other stuff they watched when they were children that was actually good.


I know children TODAY who like Jar Jar.... god have mercy upon us all.

----------


## dancrilis

> _Phantom Menace_ is 22 years old. The children it was targeted at are adults now. Do you know any of them who remember Jar Jar fondly? Because I don't. Yet people remember _Pingu_ fondly, or a lot of other stuff they watched when they were children that was actually good.
> 
> What's Jar Jar's deal? He talks weirdly and acts wacky and that's it. There's nothing here but an accent and slapstick*, it may make you laugh once, but that's it.  Comedy is an art, a difficult one, you've got to understand your audience and what makes them tick to subvert it. Just going "woo, look at the wacky accidents!" with no depth or effort isn't good enough. If comedy were food, Jar Jar would be bland, flavorless, unfullfilling junk food.
> 
> *And I'm being generous here by calling that slapstick.


As one of the people who I believe on the first page warned you to simply avoid Jar-Jar episodes I will say ... C-3PO in the original series is not that much better (still better) but fans of the original series give him a pass (sortof), it is possible (albeit unlikely) that the people who were children when Jar-Jar was released hate him because they were taught to hate rather then that he was so actively annoying.

I would be _very_ dubious about the above but it _might_ be a fair arguement.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

I dunno, I've never done a straw poll of people feel about Jar Jar. I would suggest that thinking about how (some) adults feel about him is not the best way to judge something aimed at kids.

But the hate for him seems to be mostly a meme. There's never any specific fault or failing people can point to, just that they don't like him.

*Spoiler: series overall*
Show



Clone Wars Anakin is a much flatter character, he's a generic action hero that occasionally has flashes of random violence (complete with a riff from the Imperial March in case you miss it)

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 5:  Mercy Mission*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

A planet called Aleen (however that's spelled) has suffered terrible earthaquakes. The whole planet apparently. And a Jedi transport that doesn't have any Jedi on-board is redirected to bring humanitarian relief to the people there. So, did this army convoy just happen to be carrying all these supplies? The clone leader commander Wolf (I think he shows up with Rex in _Rebels_?) reports to Padmé and Yoda that theeir sensors have picked up thousands of survivors. It's apparently good news that the population of _an entire planet_ has been reduced to less than that of my hometown. Wolf's orders is to do what he can, but to get back to the war quickly.

3PO and R2 are there despite neither of their owners being in the astronomical neighbourhood. 3PO gets bullied by clones who call him "Shiny". Does it make sense to call a droid that? The dropships are greeted by a local mounted on a flying beastie. "_Great_, it's gonna be one of those planets." One of which planets? the ones where the people are glad to see you?

Wolf meets the local king who doesn't speak Basic, so C-3PO can justify his existence. King Manchucho welcomes them to their disaster. Well, he's taking it in high spirits. The king tells his people that the clones will save them and feed their stomachs and that the gods below will know peace once more. I'm a tad disapointed this wasn't foreshadowing for the locals trying to eat/sacrifice the clones. The meeting is interrupted by an aftershock earthquake that the natives mistakenly believe 3PO stopped when he told them to stay calm.

First priority is to repair the local "mainframe computer" thanks to the users' manual R2 has with him. So a handful of clones, D2 and some alynna are sent over there. The clones blast their way through rubble and get inside the computer building. Whose ceiling is high enought to accomodate them despite the native population being about 80cm tall. tHey get to work and are interrupted by another quake.

Meanwhile Wolf is expaling to Manchucho where they'll set up the hospital and community kitchen. But the king thinks that first "Peace must be restored" by going inside/under, 3PO isn't sure what he means. Wolf is confused and 3PO theorizes that maybe their culture forbids eating in public. Yes, this the Way. When Manchucho just randomly starts praying, Wolf's patience runs short and he storms off. The clones with R2 are recalled to help with the work and 3PO repjoins his counterpart. The alynnas with R2 immediately insist they show them something. R2 just abnadons his work I guess?

They take them to a hole in the ground half-covered with a golden disk. Then a quake happens and the droids fall in because we've got to get the plot moving, you see the Force wills it. One of the locals go fetch some help while the droids look around the tunnels. Some purple fireflies fly by 3PO just before he spots daylight (actually some bioluùinescent flora in a big cave). The king tries to explain to wolf what happened to his translator, but well, they don't have the translator with them. The fireflies swarm 3PO for a while making him panic and his yelling wakes what I can only-describe as a burned-up ent. The ents want the droids to get lost. Also they're angry that the surface-dwellers destroyed the peace. They reveal they're causing the quakes to keep out the surface air which is poisonnous to them. However that works. "The quakes have caused many to die, that is why we are here to help. -How? -However we can." Okay, htat's a good line. The ents tell them to see Orphne who will know what to do.

The aleena gather around the hole and starts chanting at it. The droids are puzzled by the ents' assertion and find the fireflies again, who lead them to another cave where they coalesce into a frog/flower lady. Who immediately tries to eat 3PO. Rude. She explains that the aleena and the subterranean people live apart and that the air is filtered by the soil which makes it non-deadly to her people. But the aleena attacked the underground-dwellers' most sacred site and breached the divide. The quakes were apparently attempts to seal that breach. Bit lof an overkill, no? 3PO offers to seal the breach. Orphne just answers that they will if it is their destiny and bull**** like that because the plot isn't dense enough for a whole 22 minutes you see she is a wise trickster-like mentor figure, I guess. Then she adds: "You can run, but cannot walk. You have a mouth, but cannot talk. You have a head, but never weep. You have a bed, but never sleep. Ask yourself who are you?" Okay, most of these are one-to-one translations to French, but rivers have "heads" in English? And then she teleports out.

3PO asks R2 to replay the riddle because I dunno. While he's confused, R2 runs over the symbols of the ground for fire and soil and stops on water which he sprinkles with cleaning fluid. This activates it. And the floor starts glowing. 3PO thinks _he_ solved the riddle and they are yeeted into a big flower on the ceiling. They land just next to the praying alynnas. said aleenas suddenly start coughing and passing out from the vapors coming out of the hole despite being fine before. 3PO understands that the locals can't seal the breach because of that air. They push the seal over the hole and save the planet. Yes, that two-meter wide hole was causing the whole planet to be in danger. It's a bit like when you're five and you imagine that the ocean has a sinkhole like your bathtub. The aleenas cheer. Some clone show up and reprimand them for slacking off on the computer repairs. Cut to the Republicans leaving. Manchichu thanks 3PO and a child hugs R2. C-3PO starts to tell R2 how he's gonna tell everybody of their heroics and the clones can't wait ot get rid of them.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Well, that was a thing that happened.


Next up: *Nomad Droids*. Let me guess, More R2 and 3PO.

----------


## Keltest

In English, its not an overly common term, but the "head" of a river is the source of the river. Well, technically, its the point furthest from where it meets another body of water, but in practice thats the source.

Also, its fascinating to me how they have managed to turn 3PO so completely insufferable. In the Original Trilogy he at least had useful information between the translating (such as noticing when the Falcon's hyperdrive is broken), but they seem to have forgotten that he isnt overtly stupid in the series.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

I have no memory of this episode whatsoever.

----------


## Fyraltari

So was it king Munchochu who ordered the attack on the temple-thingie and had the seal moved? If so, why?




> In English, its not an overly common term, but the "head" of a river is the source of the river. Well, technically, its the point furthest from where it meets another body of water, but in practice thats the source.


Thanks.



> I have no memory of this episode whatsoever.


What is there to remember?

----------


## AMX

My memories of this one are thankfully vague, but ISTR getting the impression that the "attack" was really just a natural earthquake.

----------


## Fyraltari

> My memories of this one are thankfully vague, but ISTR getting the impression that the "attack" was really just a natural earthquake.


No, the earthquakes were made by Orphne & Co, apparently in the hopes of shaking the seal back into place.

----------


## Precure

Order 666:

You have reached the post numbered 666 

 :Roach:  :Roach:  :Roach:  :Roach:  :Roach:  :Roach:

----------


## Fyraltari

> Also, its fascinating to me how they have managed to turn 3PO so completely insufferable. In the Original Trilogy he at least had useful information between the translating (such as noticing when the Falcon's hyperdrive is broken), but they seem to have forgotten that he isnt overtly stupid in the series.


3PO's peak was fooling some stormtroopers into believing he and R2 were Imperials aboard the Death Star. It's all been downhill from there regardless of medium.



> Order 666:
> 
> You have reached the post numbered 666


Wot?

----------


## Mechalich

> It's apparently good news that the population of _an entire planet_ has been reduced to less than that of my hometown.


Planetary population dynamics in Star Wars are kind of tricky. The territory controlled (even nominally) by the Empire (the largest territory ever claimed by a government) contained roughly 100 quadrillion (100,000,000,000,000,000) sapient organic beings (so not counting droids). This population was spread across 70 million star systems. So the mean planetary population was only 1.43 billion people. However, because upwards of half the Empire's population lived in the Core and a good chunk of the rest lived in the Colonies and Inner Rim, the _median_ planetary population was very low. In huge portions of the galaxy the average planetary population was below 1 million.

There is a tendency to use 'planet' as a synonym for 'settlement' in Star Wars as a result, with lots of planets, especially those in the Outer Rim, being implied to have only one real settlement on the entire surface, usually clustered around the only spaceport location. This isn't actually that unreasonable, since a lot of planets are settled during periods of colonial rush where immigrants land a single colony ship, convert it into a starter city and then...no one else ever shows up because the planet doesn't have any real economic utility. So the population expands at a crawl (Star Wars populations are generally post demographic transition and expand very slowly) and doesn't spread out that much because all the essential resources like power generation and droid repair are concentrated in the one city.

----------


## AMX

> No, the earthquakes were made by Orphne & Co, apparently in the hopes of shaking the seal back into place.


Yes, but what opened it in the first place?

The Secret Underground Poison-Breathing Civilisation (TM) think it was an attack, but the impression I got was that It Was All Just A Tragic Misunderstanding (TM).

----------


## Peelee

> "It's for kids" is no excuse for poor quality. Quite the opposite.


Case in point: The Iron Giant was for kids.

----------


## Mechalich

> Case in point: The Iron Giant was for kids.


It's worth noting that, in terms of the US TV ratings system 'for kids' encompasses a wide range of different categories. Clone Wars was generally rated TV-PG, a higher rating than given to its successor Rebels, which was rated TV-Y7, and it is clear from even a casual perusal of the two shows that the amount of on-screen 'fantasy violence' considered acceptable between the two shows was very, very different due to the ratings requirements (Rebels often feels like it was restricted to no more than 2 people could be blasted per episode, which led to a lot of punching and kicking for takedowns). 

It is possible that, for various reasons such as an intention to utilize other time slots or to produce promotional material suitable for very young children to air at events, certain episodes of Clone Wars operated under a set of guidelines more suited to TV-Y7 rather than TV-PG. The various R2 and 3PO episodes seem like candidates for such a variation. The doesn't mean they can't be good - plenty of extremely kid friendly content is quite good, but it does mean they have to operate with reduced amounts of violence and considerably less narrative complexity. 

If that was the case, I think that was a bad choice - most of the best arcs in the Clone Wars are the ones that go hardest in terms of the impact of 'giant, utterly pointless war' upon both participants and civilians - but I can see why they did it, especially given Lucas' mandates to do things like include Jar Jar. The part that's really disappointing is that it's very clear that the TV-PG or Teen ratings zone is capable of handling basically everything one needs to make great Star Wars material, but they deliberately restricted Rebels with the more kid-friendly rating and it really hurt that show.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

True, but silly and lighthearted is not the same as bad.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 6: Nomad Droids*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

I don't usually comment on the little quotes before the episodes because they're super vague, tangentially related to the episode and there's nothing I can really say about them, but this time they just straight-up quoted _A New Hope_.

The droids have been off-loaded to Master Gallia and the narration tells us they hope to avoid a separatist attack before they're back to safety. Does it count as tempting fate if the narration does it? Anyway, 3PO is telling the story of last episode to Amidala on the space-phone. He's eager to be back on coruscant and she wants him to organize some banquet coming up. And they're interrupted by an explosion. The seaparatists are attacking their ship and they're kicking the Republicans' ass so much that Gallia orders an evacuation just as she arrives on the command bridge. The droids stumble into a firefight in the corridors (hmm, this seems familair) and witness gallia dueling Grievous.

While looking for an escape pod, R2 leads his counterpart into the hangar where he straight-up _steals_ a Y-wing, (even shoving away another astromech) and gets 3PO inside. That's a court-martial, right there. R2 shoots at the Seppies for a bit, but when the Republic's cruiser explodes he runs away towards a nearby planet. R2 manages to outmaneuver a pursuing vulture droid but they've taken to much damage and crash. R2 deems the ship fixable with the proper tools, but 3PO doesn't trust it.

They're spied on by local warriors who charge them aaaaand they're liliputians. The good ol' forced perspective trick; it's a classic. Their sticks are electrified so despite their size they knock the droids down and tie them up while waiting for their leader "the Big Hezu". Not even going to comment on the accent. 3PO isists they are friendly but the Big Hezu taught his people there are no such thing as friendly visitors, and they do whatever he says "for our own good." Including sending their children (the lucky ones) to fight his wars. Big Hezu hismelf shows up, and he's an obese man carried by servants accompanied by dancers and trumpettists. Hezu doesn't like R2 talking back but 3PO manages to calm him a bit. Hezu wants them off his planet this instant whether or not their ship is safe to fly. R2 gets uppitty again and 3PO decides to switch him off because he causes an "intergalactic incident". great the translator droid doesn't know what "intergalactic" means. As he says that 3PO slaps R2 which somehow unbalances him and he falls on Hezu crushing him into goo.

The local rejoice and work to repair the Y-Wing. Then they ask 3PO to stay as their leader. 3PO thinks that killing the previous boss is no basis for a system of government. So he asks for the three smartest, most intelligent, most understanding and most compassionate. Luckily all three happen to be present.
He says they should choose their leader from these three and asks who votes for whom. "Congratulations, you are now a democracy!" And the three starts arguing about who had the more votes and it devolves into a brawl. The droids just leave, accidently blowing all the locals off with their exhausts.

Both the droids and the ship are runnign out of power but there happens to be another planet nearby, so they land on that. It's apparently a "stellar remnant in its emerging stages of organic development", shouldn't it be a gaz giant, then? They start looking for a power source and stumble into some local hunters who capture them and take thme to their leader. Said leader is an obvious hologram surrounding by arcs of lightning. He asks what droids are and once he gets an answer he fries one of his men for having "thought" to bring the non-living things to him. 'Coz "no-one thiks here, but _me_."As 3PO points out he's a hologram (and gets called a blasphemer), R2 wanders off to a cliff side where he opens a door and finds several little droids like the one from Watto's shop in TPM. They're controlling the hologram. tHey don't want to help R2 and tell him to get his own organics to enslave. So R2 switches off the disguise and the hologram starts showing him and the head droid fighting. as the organics storm the droids hideout and shooting up everything (it turns out to be a crashed ship hidden inside of the cliff) R2 and 3PO wlk away as it explodes behinf them.

R2 can't follow since he's running very low on power. And 3PO himself only has 1.73% left. They sit down under a tree and both turn off in what would be a somber scene if we didn't all know they'll be fine. And they're found by weeqay pirates who just happen to pass by. The droids are recharged and taken to an inship arena (they're back in space) where a droid is beating another to death before cremating it. The pirates, however are spotted by gRievous' ship. The general has captured Gallia and decides to use the pirates as target practice. I would question the need for robots to practice, but these droids certainly do need it. 3PO and R2 are thrown into the arena and are saved by a hole being blasted in the hull near them. It has the usual physics-defying burst of wind that blows them out into space.

R2 uses his thrusters to bring them aboard Grievous's ship. Some B1s deem them pirate droids, R2 has to stop 3PO from stating they're Republic... Remember the time 3PO fooled some troopers into thinking they were Imperials? These were the days. The seppies send them to the incenerator room to be melted down for Grievous's war machine. Which one? He's got a lot of those. But just before they're melted away, the Republic arrives! Our two droids escape the incinerator room and stumble into Plo Koon just as he meets up with Gallia (yup, Grievous can't even keep his offscreen victories). along with Plo is Commander Wolf who reports that grievous has fled (figures) and his floored to recognize 3PO and R2. 3PO tells Koon they have been on quite an adventure. "Well, I'm certian Wolf would love to hear about it." and he walks away. Okay, I don't think the JEdi Code explictly forbids that, but it ought to. And the episode ends as 3PO starts telling their story to an exasperated Wolf.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show






Next up: *Darkness on Umbara*. Hmm, I think I've heard people praise that arc. So I hope this is where this season gets good.

----------


## Jasdoif

> *Spoiler: My thoughts*
> Show


"_Gulliver's Travels_?  And _The Wizard of Oz_?  In *space*?"
"I panicked, it was the only thing superficially resembling a plot I could think of!"

----------


## Taevyr

Minor nitpick: I also used to be annoyed at the use of "intergalactic" in star wars, until I found out about the Rishi maze and the like: there are a few dwarf galaxies the main one has contact with, so "intergalactic" may actually be correct.

OTOH, I'm also fairly certain that in this case, it just sounded both sci-fi and overblown enough for C3PO to use  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Kantaki

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 3PO tells Koon they have been on quite an adventure. "Well, I'm certian Wolf would love to hear about it." and he walks away. Okay, I don't think the JEdi Code explictly forbids that, but it ought to. And the episode ends as 3PO starts telling their story to an exasperated Wolf.


New headcanon: The Clones followed Order 66 mostly because the Jedi kept pulling jerk moves like this. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Fyraltari

> New headcanon: The Clones followed Order 66 mostly because the Jedi kept pulling jerk moves like this.


Ah, yes, I wanted to put in another "this is why the galaxy turned on you, guys" snippet, but I forgot.

----------


## Peelee

> So I hope this is where this season gets good.


I'm going to reiterate my excitement for your eventual _Avatar: The Last Airbender_ watch thread, if only for the "oh, so that's the one episode some people don't like" dichotomy.

----------


## Mechalich

I will say, Filoni and co. seem to have understood the variance in quality between their episodes, because the good, bad, and mediocre arcs are all pretty well mixed up in order so you never encounter a truly sustained run of dreck for 10+ episodes.

----------


## Fyraltari

> "_Gulliver's Travels_?  And _The Wizard of Oz_?  In *space*?"
> "I panicked, it was the only thing superficially resembling a plot I could think of!"


When they said they were gonna land on another planet after the one with the little people I thought "Oh this is _Gulliver's Travels_, so now we should have the very big people planet. Or another Cloud City. Or the horse people planet." But it wasn't. If the second one was _The Wizard of Oz_, shouldn't they have met a lion alien, a vegetal alien and a little girl with a dog alien on a golden road?



> Minor nitpick: I also used to be annoyed at the use of "intergalactic" in star wars, until I found out about the Rishi maze and the like: there are a few dwarf galaxies the main one has contact with, so "intergalactic" may actually be correct.
> 
> OTOH, I'm also fairly certain that in this case, it just sounded both sci-fi and overblown enough for C3PO to use


I mean, they were on their way from the Mid Rim to Coruscant so, if they ended up in a satellite galaxy, I seriously question the abilities of the cruiser's pilot.



> I'm going to reiterate my excitement for your eventual _Avatar: The Last Airbender_ watch thread, if only for the "oh, so that's the one episode some people don't like" dichotomy.


The dichotomy of what and what?



> I will say, Filoni and co. seem to have understood the variance in quality between their episodes, because the good, bad, and mediocre arcs are all pretty well mixed up in order so you never encounter a truly sustained run of dreck for 10+ episodes.


That might just be chance. It is quite unlikely to have a die roll a 1 ten times in a row as well.

----------


## Peelee

> The dichotomy of what and what?


The large amount of dreck in TCW* to the small amount in A:TLA.

*To be fair here, Star Wars overall has a large amount of drek, lest I be unduly unkind to TCW. Still love the universe and will watch/read everything they put out, of course.

----------


## Taevyr

> The large amount of dreck in TCW* to the small amount in A:TLA.
> 
> *To be fair here, Star Wars overall has a large amount of drek, lest I be unduly unkind to TCW. Still love the universe and will watch/read everything they put out, of course.


'Twas the beauty of the old Star Wars extended Universe: quite a few truly excellent stories, within an incoherent, inconsistent mess of (often) cheap plots and writers purposely retconning each other at times.

And now, Disney seems to be going the same route with their attempt to clean it all up.

----------


## Jasdoif

> When they said they were gonna land on another planet after the one with the little people I thought "Oh this is _Gulliver's Travels_, so now we should have the very big people planet. Or another Cloud City. Or the horse people planet." But it wasn't. If the second one was _The Wizard of Oz_, shouldn't they have met a lion alien, a vegetal alien and a little girl with a dog alien on a golden road?


If they were adhering more strongly to the _The Wizard of Oz_, sure.  The whole "pay no attention to who's running the giant intimidating projection" thing is the common super-condensed _Wizard of Oz_ reference, though; in the much the same way as "look a society of small humanoids in wonder of the size of the protagonists" is the common super-condensed _Gulliver's Travels_ reference.


Probably have C3PO stand in for the Tin Man, the Scarecrow and the Cowardly Lion; R2D2 would be Toto....If Adi Gallia was in an escape pod that crash-landed on the Wicked Witch of the East Hay-zu on the first planet the same planet, that'd be the cast right there!

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 7: Darkness on Umbara*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The Republic launched a lightning strike to take over the strategically situated system of Umbara who is inside a "ghost nebula" (the **** are those?) in the Expansion Region (that's in the Outer Rim? I think?). They've steamrolled the space fleet and are preparing for ground assault. Obi-Wan and Anakin are debriefing the 501st. Their target is the capital city. Kenobi will lead the main assault from the south with the help of Jedi Masters Krell and Ti (Tim?) as well as Cody and friends. While Skywalker and this lot come from the north to take out the ennemy reinforcements. Problem is, the locals joined the CIS of their own accord and will therefore fight the Republic, and they're heavily armed. Also with Skywalker is our old pal Fives on special assignment, which Rex is happy about. Just him, he's no longer part of any squad or unit apparently. Were him and Echo the only ARC Troopers of the entire 501st? Kenobi stresses one last time that Anakin's mission is crucial and they part ways.

We haven't had a proper battle sequence since the Second Battle of Geonosis and, tell you what? I missed it. It's reminiscent of that too, but the ambiance is quite different as Umbara is a very poorly lit world (clue's in the name, really). I guess it's far away from its star? The cloudy weather isn't doing anybody any favour either and the dropships have to fly almost blind under anti-air fire and I think those are flying mines? They have some losses but do overall well. Anakin's group start dropping some good ol' chicken walkers to the battle field to clear out the landing site.
C'est le laridé du poulet. Dansez, dansez tant qu'vous l'pouvez...
the Umbarans (who look like humans in diving suits) have some weird cannons, who llok like some TIE variant that shoots bolts of lightning out of its wings. They can't stop the troops from landing though, and soon start a fighting retreat. This has some real _Saving Private Ryan_ energy to it. Rew spotted a nearby ridge that Anakin elects to use as a staging area. You know, as soon as its cleared of hostiles. Anakin tells the clones to watch out for traps and one of them complains that he can't even see _the enemy_. "That's why they're called the Shadow People, Tough!" One clone, called Hardcase trips on a vine which, it turns out belong to a giant alien Venus fly-trap. The kind that can move and has a taste for human flesh. It eats a clone and tries to eat Fives too but he feeds it a grenade itself which handily solves the problem. He and Hardcase formally introduce each other. hardcase has a minigun, this is his distinctive sign.

Cut to the troops having a short rest in that ridge. Anakin wants them to get on the move soon. He tells a clone called Dogma to get some rest and Rex has to insist that was an order for dogma to oblige. Rex calls Dogma "wound tight but loyal." This remind Anakin of Rex. The clone thinks that may have been true "... back in the day." What, last year? What they don't know, though, is that they have some Umbarans left behind them and one of them drops a biomechnaical scorpion in the ridge. That thing is cool as ****. It shocks one unlucky sap and its master use the resulting mayhem as a distraction to attack. Anakin destroys the scorpion and Rex calls in an airstrike on their position. That they immediately evacuate, of course. As they wait for the bombers one clone (Fives?) asks Rex if he's sure the bombers are coming. He doesn't answer. Wait didn't you get a reply from whoever is in charge of the bombing? Isn't that standard protocol? I'm sure I have heard you guys go "Copy that!" a few times to confirm an order. Anyway, a couple of Y-bombers blow the ridge to smithereens with the locals in it.

Some time latter, a drops ship... drops a 2,5-meter tall, four-armed anthropomorphic frog: Master Krell. He's gere because the Jedi Council ordered Skywalker back to Coruscant on special request by Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. Hm... Krell doesn't know any more. Well besides that he is taking over the st in the meantime of course. I wonder if whatever Palpatine wants with Anakin will come into play in the next arc or if it's just an excuse to get Anakin away from this one's plot. Anakin introduces Rex as is first in command (don't you mean second? You're _numero uno_), the finest and most loyal trooper ever. There's an eeeeevil shot of Krell with sinister music as Skywalker leaves, so you know he's bad. Rex tells Krell he's honoured to serve with someone of his reputation. Krell finds it "interesting that [he's] able to recognize the value of honour. For a clone." The hell does that mean. He then has him stand at attention, tells him flattery won't be rewarded and that his command is effective because he does everything by the book. So, y'know, he's _that_ kind of boss. You know the kind.

Some time latter, Fives complains that Krell's being a jerk, but Rex tells him the boss's the boss so just take it until Skywalker's back. Then some bioluminsecent flying mantas show up. The clones immediately start firing at them. Cautious, but rude, maybe they're just native wildlife? They miss anyway and the mantas start grabbing an throwin clones around. Krell makes short work of them. Wait, he's fighting with two double lightsabers? One the one hand, awesome but on the second hand, if that's why they gave him two set of arms, why is he only using his upper ones?

Some time latter, a clone (Dogma?) tells Rex that they've been keepig up the pace for twelve hours without rest and maybe he could have a word with the general about that? Wait, Obi-Wan said his troops would be "twelve clicks" from Anakin's and since they're going to the capital from opposite side they must be headed towards one another. Click means kilometer, right? How the **** did they not meet up if they've been walking fro twelve hours straight? Are they going in circles? Rex suggests another ridge on which to make camp, but Krell isn't willing to stop the forced march, as he berates Rex for questionning his strategy (continuously refers to him as CT-7567, too) and insists that the importance of the mission is such they can't afford rest. Also I think he means "tactic" not "strategy".

Later yet, they've reached a road and Rex reports that they are ready for the planned surgical strike on the city's defenses. Krell, however, decided on a full-frontal assault along the main route. Rex questions this, as they don't know what defenses they are up against. Krell just insists that they march straight to the capital with no stops or retreat, regardless of the resistance. As the vanguard progresses, the clones aren't exactly thrilled with the new "walk directly into the line of fire" plan Krell cooked up (I imagine that the fact he is no longer leading from the front doesn't help with that). Well Hardcase is pretty stoked, which seems to be typical, and another clone (Dogma probably) thinks they should have more trust in their general. Fives just thinks this plan is reckless. Rex agrees but, the general's word is final and this "isn't time for a debate." You guys don't get to experience much of that democracy you are fighting for, do you?

And the road is mined, because of course it is. Don't worry, though, Fives's got a flashlight that highlits the tiles (in the road?) that are trapped. How convienient! Aaaaand, thay're taking artillery fire. Supported by a bunch of local soldiers coming at them from all angles since, as one clone puts it, they're completely exposed. Well, at least Hardcase's having fun. Since they're getting slaughtered, Rex orders a retreat, hoping that, in pursuing them, their ennemy will come out of cover so they can be shot better. This seems to work and I think one Umbaran even stepped on one of their own mines. Oops. Krell, watching this from afar, calls them feeble-minded and sends in some more troopers to the rescue. The Umabarans call it a day and leave.

Krell is pissed at Rex, though and says his failure has compromised the entire operation. This is the final straw for Fives who asks if Krell will "fail" to recognize Rex saving the platoon. Krell, calling him ARC-5555 (does he know the serial number of every clone in his command or what?) draws his blade on him and orders him to stand down. Rex retorts that he followed his plan, even though he thought it flawed and that men, not clones, men! have died for it. And he has as much of a duty to obey Krell as to protect his underlings. Krell recognizes Rex's tenacity, admits his command is much more difficult than Anakin's, but it has proven effective in these dangerous times and that Rex's loyalty to his men is to be commended and that his men seem to admire it which is important in a commander. So his opinion has been noted. Fives sums this up as "I think he almost compliemented you." Not quite. Although this is carefully worded to sound compliment-adjacing he's actually pretty masterfully danced around actually admitting to wrongdoing or praising Rex. Dud should go into politics.

Aaaaaand, they're getting shot at some more. end of the episode.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Aaaah, back to the good stuff. Like I said, the beginning of this reminds me of the Geonosis arc's first episode, which is always good. It's nice to have some war in our _Star Wars_. The second half, however is an entire beast entirely. Cards on the table, I had watched some clips of this show before I started this thread and I think I recognize Krell as some sort of secret sith* from them. So I guess he's being such a knobhead because he wants the Republic to lose this battle but he's being subtle about it? Kinda wonder how he got his reputation, though?

This epsidoe is rather well paced althought the plant-monster felt a bit filler-ish. It's very dark too, but unlike the first arc of this season, it's more night-lighting than murky waters and the glowing flora and fauna creates some interestign ambiances. MAkes it reather hard to tell the clones apart though.


The Umbarans can't breath their own atmosphere (Fives even breaks one's helmet once to underline the point) but the humans and Krell can? That's blatantly unfair! I remember Umbarans form KotOR II where some served as Visquis's Praetorian Guard. They had environment suits there too, but I think the implication was that their world had been super-irradiated and they had evolved into needing that amount of radiation to survive hence why they needs the suits in environments the other races found livable.

It's pretty obvious in this episode how unwilling the creators are to have the Jedi slash human-like characters to bits. For once the ennemy isn't droids or disgusting bug-creatures and _coincidetally_ the Jedi don't feel like fighting in mêlée today?

Now let's all picture Dee Bradley Baker in the record booth making all the "go, go, go!" and various yells all the clones did in this episode. The man has earned his paycheck, for sure! 

*Sounds like a foe for Spider-muun!


Next up: *The General*.

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## Jasdoif

> ....in the Expansion Region (that's in the Outer Rim? I think?)


No, the Expansion Region is between the Inner Rim and Mid Rim.  I assume the name is somehow related to how the Colonies region is between the Core Worlds and the Inner Rim; like they kept naming the edge of then-known space no one wanted to settle "rim" and continually renamed the rims each time they added one....




> Kenobi will lead the main assault from the south with the help of Jedi Masters Krell and Ti (Tim?) as well as Cody and friends.


I _think_ I heard Tiin.  On the other hand, Fives _did_ use a grenade on an enemy found naughty in his eyes that snuffed it....




> Cards on the table, I had watched some clips of this show before I started this thread and I think I recognize Krell as some sort of secret sith* from them....


You might recognize his species from Dex, the guy who owned the diner in _Attack of the Clones_ who told Obi-Wan about Kamino from the dart.

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## Mechalich

> That's blatantly unfair! I remember Umbarans form KotOR II where some served as Visquis's Praetorian Guard. They had environment suits there too, but I think the implication was that their world had been super-irradiated and they had evolved into needing that amount of radiation to survive hence why they needs the suits in environments the other races found livable.


That's the Ubese, the same species as the bounty hunter Leia cosplayed as during ROTJ. Umbarans are a different species, the one Sly Moore, the bald chick occasionally seen standing behind Palpatine, belongs to (which brings of the point that one of Palpatine's most important advisors is from a species that sided with the Separatists, mmm, implications...)




> Now let's all picture Dee Bradley Baker in the record booth making all the "go, go, go!" and various yells all the clones did in this episode. The man has earned his paycheck, for sure!


I really hope he was being paid hourly or something so that his paycheck actually reflected how much clone each episode of Clone Wars contained. 




> No, the Expansion Region is between the Inner Rim and Mid Rim. I assume the name is somehow related to how the Colonies region is between the Core Worlds and the Inner Rim; like they kept naming the edge of then-known space no one wanted to settle "rim" and continually renamed the rims each time they added one....


The Expansion Region is so-named because it was originally settled under a policy of deliberate expansion by corporations in order to acquire the raw materials necessary for further development of the Core and Colonies, and even though that was something like 15,000 years in the past, portions of the region are still developmentally depressed as a consequence.

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## Peelee

> It's pretty obvious in this episode how unwilling the creators are to have the Jedi slash human-like characters to bits. For once the ennemy isn't droids or disgusting bug-creatures and _coincidetally_ the Jedi don't feel like fighting in mêlée today?


The network, not the creators. They enforce insane rules on shows - eg, in _Batman TAS_, among the various pages upon pages of "remove this" the show runners got from Fox, child endangerment was banned. Fox also demanded they put in Robin at one point - a child who encounters danger with Batman. They had to age him up to make the demands work (which really worked out well for the character, but still).

In Star Wars, almost certainly similar rules lead to things like *Spoiler: very minor spoilers for other shows.*
Show

Ezra in _Rebels_ having a laser slingshot instead of a gun (that was as stupid as it sounds), and then eventually a gun that could only stun and did not look like a gun, Omega* in _Bad Batch_ having a laser bow and arrow (that is as stupid as it sounds), and the rest of the titular batch almost exclusively ever firing at their enemies with stun bolts. Because mod forbid the evil Galactic Empire have anyone get shot and die.


*yes, I know, that was only once and I wouldn't be surprised if they had to heavily argue their case for it to boot.

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## Keltest

> The network, not the creators. They enforce insane rules on shows - eg, in _Batman TAS_, among the various pages upon pages of "remove this" the show runners got from Fox, child endangerment was banned. Fox also demanded they put in Robin at one point - a child who encounters danger with Batman. They had to age him up to make the demands work (which really worked out well for the character, but still).
> 
> In Star Wars, almost certainly similar rules lead to things like *Spoiler: very minor spoilers for other shows.*
> Show
> 
> Ezra in _Rebels_ having a laser slingshot instead of a gun (that was as stupid as it sounds), and then eventually a gun that could only stun and did not look like a gun, Omega* in _Bad Batch_ having a laser bow and arrow (that is as stupid as it sounds), and the rest of the titular batch almost exclusively ever firing at their enemies with stun bolts. Because mod forbid the evil Galactic Empire have anyone get shot and die.
> 
> 
> *yes, I know, that was only once and I wouldn't be surprised if they had to heavily argue their case for it to boot.


*Spoiler*
Show

Im a little skeptical about those examples actually. In Rebels, we see the non-Ezra cast outright use blasters, so even if we cant have Omega doing it (which is plausible), the Batch using stunners is almost certainly a deliberate decision. Especially since they also set a guy on fire at one point that leaves a permanent and really gross burn scar on his head. And Ezra upgrading from his slingshot to a proper blaster is also treated as a plot point demonstrating his growing ruthlessness and violent streak. So while they may have been mandates from Disney, i think its just as plausible theyre deliberate design decisions to show, for example, the Batch's reluctance to kill their brothers intentionally.

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## Peelee

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Im a little skeptical about those examples actually. In Rebels, we see the non-Ezra cast outright use blasters, so even if we cant have Omega doing it (which is plausible), the Batch using stunners is almost certainly a deliberate decision. Especially since they also set a guy on fire at one point that leaves a permanent and really gross burn scar on his head. And Ezra upgrading from his slingshot to a proper blaster is also treated as a plot point demonstrating his growing ruthlessness and violent streak. So while they may have been mandates from Disney, i think its just as plausible theyre deliberate design decisions to show, for example, the Batch's reluctance to kill their brothers intentionally.


*Spoiler: Rebels*
Show

The non-Ezea cast are not children. Ezra, a child, does not use a blaster because he is a child. Further, when he upgraded his slingshot to a "proper" blaster, it still only stuns. It is not at all showing growing ruthlessness or a violent streak, I legit have no idea where you got that from.


ETA: I also, interestingly, have a real-life example that we could discuss over PM if you wish - it's nothing objectionable, I just don't want to discuss it on open forums for reasons that would be apparent.

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## Keltest

> *Spoiler: Rebels*
> Show
> 
> The non-Ezea cast are not children. Ezra, a child, does not use a blaster because he is a child. Further, when he upgraded his slingshot to a "proper" blaster, it still only stuns. It is not at all showing growing ruthlessness or a violent streak, I legit have no idea where you got that from.
> 
> 
> ETA: I also, interestingly, have a real-life example that we could discuss over PM if you wish - it's nothing objectionable, I just don't want to discuss it on open forums for reasons that would be apparent.


*Spoiler*
Show

You must have missed the later seasons. Ezra's stunner/saber gets destroyed, so he gets a proper blaster that shoots red/orange (im colorblind) bolts like stormtrooper blasters and builds himself a new, separate lightsaber. He also overtly and explicitly gets called out on how ruthless and pragmatic he has become, due to the influence of a Sith holocron. Its a big plot point.

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## Peelee

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> You must have missed the later seasons. Ezra's stunner/saber gets destroyed, so he gets a proper blaster that shoots red/orange (im colorblind) bolts like stormtrooper blasters and builds himself a new, separate lightsaber. He also overtly and explicitly gets called out on how ruthless and pragmatic he has become, due to the influence of a Sith holocron. Its a big plot point.


*Spoiler*
Show

Oh, right. As he ages out of being a child as is more adult 
(or, at least, as adult as Sabine was in S1).

I'm not accusing the networks of being consistent or having sound reasoning. I'm accusing them of ridiculous rules enforcement.

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## Keltest

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Oh, right. As he ages out of being a child as is more adult 
> (or, at least, as adult as Sabine was in S1).
> 
> I'm not accusing the networks of being consistent or having sound reasoning. I'm accusing them of ridiculous rules enforcement.


*Spoiler*
Show

Ezra is only two years younger than Sabine. Theyre both children at the beginning of Rebels, with Sabine being 16. And you can argue basically anything with the idea that you arent saying it makes sense or is consistent. I could certainly believe that there were bizarre network censors in place, but you arent exactly offering any proof that that they were in these cases either.

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## Fyraltari

Guys, if you are spoilering this for my sake, don't bother, I have already watched _Rebels_. What? It has Thrawn in it.

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## Peelee

> Ezra is only two years younger than Sabine.


....yes?

I said that Disney gave Ezra a weird stun slingshot because they didn't want a child to have a gun. I said that Sabine was apparently old e ojgh for them. You then point out that they have a two-year difference and Ezra ends up getting a gun around two years in. That perfectly tracks with what I have been saying.

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## Fyraltari

> No, the Expansion Region is between the Inner Rim and Mid Rim.  I assume the name is somehow related to how the Colonies region is between the Core Worlds and the Inner Rim; like they kept naming the edge of then-known space no one wanted to settle "rim" and continually renamed the rims each time they added one....


Well, that makes sense. Though I would guess that the Mid Rim used to be just The Rim and when it got too big and it amde no sense to call all of that just one thing, they separated it into the Mid Rim and the Outer Rim.




> You might recognize his species from Dex, the guy who owned the diner in _Attack of the Clones_ who told Obi-Wan about Kamino from the dart.


You blew my mind a little. I'm so used to races either being created for a specific character and then never seen again or all characters of that race being copies of that original ones that the contrast being "space 50's America dinner owner" and "harsh Jedi Master/ruthless general" is rather jarring.



> That's the Ubese, the same species as the bounty hunter Leia cosplayed as during ROTJ. Umbarans are a different species, the one Sly Moore, the bald chick occasionally seen standing behind Palpatine, belongs to


Thanks. The question remains, though, of why they settled a planet whose air they can't breathe when other species can. 


> (which brings of the point that one of Palpatine's most important advisors is from a species that sided with the Separatists, mmm, implications...)


Heh, that kind of things happen in civil wars.






> I really hope he was being paid hourly or something so that his paycheck actually reflected how much clone each episode of Clone Wars contained.


Having sole amateur theatre experience myself, so much of a good perfomance in dialog scenes comes from having good chemistry with the other person, I'm really impressed by how much he can voice discussions with himself.






> The Expansion Region is so-named because it was originally settled under a policy of deliberate expansion by corporations in order to acquire the raw materials necessary for further development of the Core and Colonies, and even though that was something like 15,000 years in the past, portions of the region are still developmentally depressed as a consequence.


For comparison, 15,000 years ago, we were still in the paleolithic period.



> The network, not the creators.


Doesn't change much on my end.


_À propos_ of nothing:
Two seasons ago:



> Once his artillery has gone up in smoke Ani orders a retreat. This vexes Rex: "We can't just turn our backs and run!" Great tactical thinking there rex, I'm sure you do your instructors back on Kamino proud.


Today:



> Since they're getting slaughtered, Rex orders a retreat, 
> [...]
> Rex retorts that he followed his plan, even though he thought it flawed and that men, not clones, men! have died for it. And he has as much of a duty to obey Krell as to protect his underlings.


Character develoment or hypocrisy? You make the call! I'm thinking development, though.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 8: The General*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Picking up where we left off, the clones are still in the middle of a fighting retreat and the Umbarans have brought in some nifty-looking space fighters. While clones are dropping like flies, Pong Krell is having a phone call with Obi-Wan Kenobi. His group is struggling to take the capital without the help of the 501st, however they're spotted a nearby airbase that is resupplying the capital's defenses. If the 501st could destroy it, that would allow them to take the city. Somehow. Krell orders Rex to have all troops ready to move out immediately. Well, they're kind of busy at the moment, but they apparently manage since we catch up with them walking peacefully.

taking a moment to assess the situation, Rex spots three tank divisions plus guns defending the base. Krell orders a full frontal assault through a gorge leading to the base. Rex objects that the gorge is so narrow they'll have to split the platoons and advance one squad after the other, so he'd rather do some more scouting before in hopes of finding a better route. Krell says they don't have time to do that. I mean, they have until the base sends another supply run to the capital, no? That could be days. Nevertheless, Rex obeys and relays the order to the troops. He wants to assemble the squads into two divisions; The clones are mighty pissed at this calling Krell crazy and wondering if he's trying to get them killed. Fives is particularly angry with Krell who he blames for the previous casualties. Only Hardcase and (I'm guessing) Dogma actually agree with the plan, and even then, not that enthusiastically. Rex points out that Skywalker's plans are about this reckless too, and they work. Fives counters that Anakin's plans have him in the line of fire too unlike their current boss. The whole thing descends into multiple separate conversations and Rex takes Fives apart. He asks him to help him convince the men. He argues that Krell is a recognized war hero with numerous victories under his belt. Fives retorts that more clones have died under his command than anybody else's. Rex says they have a duty to lay down their lives if necessary and Fives asks if he really believes that or if that's his engineering speaking. Rex just says that he believes in  honoring his code.

They march in (this place is easily wide enough for them two have twice as many clones upfront, I don't know what Rex was on about), spot some more flying mantas (just wildlife, it seems) and everything goes smoothly for about thirty second before they're attacked by some kind of huge worm-like armoured vehicle. Covered in guns. Some more of it show up and they're all ray-shielded, meaning their blasters don't do squat. Fives call Rex for rocket launchers, which he immediately sends into the fray. One of the clones (Hardcase?) takes a launcher form a wounded comrades and shoots one of the worm-tanks right in the driver's seat destroying it. The clones regroup into a little rock formation that the two remaining worms can't immediately get into. Rex orders detonators placed all over it to trap them. They goad the enemy to them and Rex... detonates the detonators right under them, destroying them. rEx is blown away by the explosion but he's fine. There's a swiping shot of Krell watching all that, but it goes by so quickly you barely have the time to recognize him. Don't know what that was about.

They go through the wreckage and destroy a still-somewhat functional tank. Rex then shoots its wounded driver when he collapses at his feet. Add that to the list of war crimes. They also shoot a bunch of mantas trying to feed on their dead brethren. and they spot a couple of _massive_ spider-like tanks coming their way. The tanks bombard them with glowing-green projectiles and they scatter. Krell, seeing that, orders Rex to press on the attack. Rex asks for reinforcements, but Krell says the rest of the battalion is guarding the other entrances of the gorge (I think? I can't quite make up what he says) so they can march to the airbase. Krell just yells at rex that he is ordering him not to fall back. A sergent Apple tell Krell their troops are in position and only waait for his order to support Rex. Meanwhile Rex's men are getting disintegrated (ion cannons?). When Rex tells them to get ready to counter-attack Fives suggests the general just straight-up hates clones. But he doesn't have anything better to offer, so they do what they're told. They get land some hits, but even the rockets don't do any noticeable damage. They get soundly beaten and Rex has to order troopers to leave the wounded behind. One clone, named Kicks, the one who was angry some animals started eating his brothers, says he sounds like Krell. That visibly hurts Rex, but he says surviving is the most important at the moment.

Still, Rex has an idea and he needs Fives for it. Pong Krell demands an update on the situation and Rex tells him his plan: send in two men to the airbase where they are to still a couple fighters and attack the tanks from the rear. Krell is furious at the idea of trusting two soldiers with what an entire group couldn't do. Rex says that stealth will be easier with them keeping the Umbarans occupied. KRell orders hims to lauch an assault again or be relieved of duty. Not sure which one hangs up on the other, but Rex ignores him. Though, it must be said that Fives and Hardcase were on their way already. Hardcase has some trouble with the idea of *not* going in guns blazing and says that's just how he is. His trainer back on Kamino even used to say his growth acceleration chamber had a leak. The base is warded off by a sensor wall made of lightning somehow. Fives sends Hardcase climbing up a tree while he plants detonators on its trunk. Harcase uses a branch to walk over the wall. Fives follow him but is ambushed by one of the mantas. Hardcase shoots it down with his grapple. The two sneak in near the fighters and Fives explodes the detonators causing the tree to collapse and the Umbarans to go check the ruckus out. They get inside the fighters but they don't really know how to fly them. They do manage to turn them on soon enough for the ray shields to protect them from the Umbarans shooting at them. they figure the controls well enough tot take off and start blowing up the base. And the other fighters.

Back in the gorge Rex manages to destroy the main gun of one of the tanks but is pinned and about to be stepped on. He's saved by the arrival of the two clones who promptly blow up the tanks. With Hardcase laughing his heart out. Even Krell admits that was impressive and he sends the rest of the battalion into the airbase. Close-up of his eye with flames reflected in it in case you had any doubts left he was bad news. The clones have taken full control of the base (we even see some Umbaran prisoners). Rex congratulates the two heroes "despite Hardcase's flying." Krell asks for their situation and the Captain reports victory. Krell calls him fortunate and brushes off the casualties. And he leaves.
 

*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

See, if Fives had been affected to another ARC squad, you wouldn't have to send him on missions with a random private!

The episode was good but the situation hasn't changed much from the previous one. I was surprised Krell didn't relieve Rex of command at the end since he disobeyed his direct order. I think the show is going for a slow burn of the clones getting angry with him, since the episode after the next one has Krell's name in it. I guess Rex _will_ be relieved but next episode.

In any case it's nice to see him come up with the kind of tactics Anakin would use: send a little group on a near-suicide mission to turn the enemy's weapons against them. His boss really is rubbing off on him.


Next up: *Plan of Dissent*

----------


## Keltest

Ion weapons disrupt electronics and shields. Youre thinking of disruptors, which tear things apart molecule by molecule and are considered to be an automatic war crime by both sides. Mando in his own show uses disruptor rounds from his sniper rifle on some Jawas, because they kind of deserve it, but the setting generally treats it as an automatic "bad guy weapon" otherwise.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Ion weapons disrupt electronics and shields. Youre thinking of disruptors, which tear things apart molecule by molecule and are considered to be an automatic war crime by both sides. Mando in his own show uses disruptor rounds from his sniper rifle on some Jawas, because they kind of deserve it, but the setting generally treats it as an automatic "bad guy weapon" otherwise.


Isn't the full name "ion disruptors"? I mean, the best way to tear something apart at the molecular level would be by messing with the electromagnetic liaisons sticking those molecules together, anyway.

----------


## Keltest

> Isn't the full name "ion disruptors"? I mean, the best way to tear something apart at the molecular level would be by messing with the electromagnetic liaisons sticking those molecules together, anyway.


Not that ive ever heard. Ion weapons have had the fairly specific meaning of "anti-electronic" since ESB at least, to my knowledge. Peelee might know better than I.

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## Fyraltari

> Not that ive ever heard. Ion weapons have had the fairly specific meaning of "anti-electronic" since ESB at least, to my knowledge. Peelee might know better than I.


The weapon from _Rebels_ is called a ion disruptor rifle.

Edit: I remember it because at the time I thought "wait since when do ion weapons kill people in _Star Wars_? Wait, that actually makes a lot of sense" when I watched it.

----------


## Keltest

That appears to be a specific anti-starship weapon that serves double function as a disruptor and ion rifle. Most disruptors are not named with that classification, and certainly ion grenades (droid poppers) are not disruptors.

----------


## Jasdoif

> The weapon from _Rebels_ is called a ion disruptor rifle.
> 
> Edit: I remember it because at the time I thought "wait since when do ion weapons kill people in _Star Wars_? Wait, that actually makes a lot of sense" when I watched it.


Hm, that's how I felt about the ion carbine in Jedi Outcast...which of course was completely different from the disruptor rifle in Jedi Outcast.


I like to think the blaster stun setting used on Leia in _A New Hope_ and the Jawa's ion weapon used on R2D2 in _A New Hope_ got conflated because they both had blue special effects, and like everything *else* in _A New Hope_ that formed the initial stereotype in the Star Wars universe.

----------


## Fyraltari

Hmm. It appears there has been a mix up on the website I am using to watch these. The files of the last two episodes of the arc were put in the wrong order and I ended up watching the fourth one before the third. And now, it somehow got worse: episode 2 has been replaced with episode 4, episode 3 is episode 2 and episode 4 episode 1.

----------


## Peelee

> Hmm. It appears there has been a mix up on the website I am using to watch these. The files of the last two episodes of the arc were put in the wrong order and I ended up watching the fourth one before the third. And now, it somehow got worse: episode 2 has been replaced with episode 4, episode 3 is episode 2 and episode 4 episode 1.


Oh man, if you think that's bad just wait til you hear about _Clerks: The Animated Series,_ .

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## Fyraltari

> Oh man, if you think that's bad just wait til you hear about _Clerks: The Animated Series,_ .


I don't get it.

----------


## Peelee

> I don't get it.


Because you haven't heard about it, I would wager.

*Spoiler*
Show

It was an animated show based on the movie _Clerks_, which was rated R. It was supposed to air on one network that specifically wanted it, but another network made a bid and the changed to it. The other network apparently did not know many basic details of the show/movie, such as two anchor characters being drug dealers. They demanded changes, such as them being fireworks dealers. Most notably, though, the episode release schedule was....

The first episode made was a normal episode. The second episode was a satire on clip show episodes, and constantly flashed back to the first episode. Which was really well done and hilarious, when you watch it on DVD. However, the network aired the second episode first, so viewers were treated to a clip show episode constantly calling back to an episode that they never saw. The network then aired the sixth episode (titled, as a joke, "The Last Episode Ever", since the network only ordered 6 episodes to start with). Further, the network aired it in a different time, on a different day, with no advertising whatsoever. It was then cancelled for low viewership.

tl;dr - The way it was handled could be best described as a cluster****. Which is a shame, because it was _really_ good. I highly recommend checking it out if you ever get the chance.

----------


## Fyraltari

I have never understood why networks do that sometimes. Why not release the episodes in order? What's the benefit?

----------


## Keltest

> I have never understood why networks do that sometimes. Why not release the episodes in order? What's the benefit?


Often, the benefit is that they get to cancel the show. I wouldnt be surprised if they stole the show to keep the other network from getting it, then actually looked at what they got and went "eurgh!"

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## Jasdoif

> Often, the benefit is that they get to cancel the show. I wouldnt be surprised if they stole the show to keep the other network from getting it, then actually looked at what they got and went "eurgh!"


On the other end of the spectrum there are also occasions, especially with animated shows, where the first few episodes look experimental bad as the production staff hadn't yet found the series' artistic "groove"; and the network understandably wants the premiere to be strong.  Off the top of my head, Teen Titans was first aired with Final Exam, the third episode produced; presumably because the first episode (Divide And Conquer) was *extremely* rough.

----------


## pendell

So I just caught what I think was a very spoilery clip from the last few episodes of clone wars.  

 The Spoiler clip  

And I want to urge our viewer to stick it out. As stupid as some things are, it looks like it's going to get much, _much_ better as we go on. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Fyraltari

> So I just caught what I think was a very spoilery clip from the last few episodes of clone wars.  
> 
>  The Spoiler clip  
> 
> And I want to urge our viewer to stick it out. As stupid as some things are, it looks like it's going to get much, _much_ better as we go on. 
> 
> Respectfully, 
> 
> Brian P.


Look, I've been doing this for more than a year now, and I am almost at the halfway point. Believe you me, I am too committed to quit now.

----------


## Peelee

> As stupid as some things are, it looks like it's going to get much, _much_ better as we go on.


Spoiler alert: it's pretty par for the course right now.

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## Mechalich

> Spoiler alert: it's pretty par for the course right now.


The series committed to a steady 3-4 episode long arc structure from Season 3 onward. Basically from that point quality varied based on the quality of the individual arcs involved. Though certain arcs were interconnected, for example the overall Ventress plotline. None of the later seasons really stands apart from any of the others, they all have good arcs, mediocre arcs, and at least one bad arc. Now, insofar as the series manages to conclude some of its various overall plotlines, it generally sticks the landing (Ventress, regrettably, got left on the cutting room floor), so there absolutely is a worthy payoff to all of this, which is more than can be said of a lot of kid-oriented sci-fi.

----------


## Peelee

> The series committed to a steady 3-4 episode long arc structure from Season 3 onward. Basically from that point quality varied based on the quality of the individual arcs involved. Though certain arcs were interconnected, for example the overall Ventress plotline. None of the later seasons really stands apart from any of the others, they all have good arcs, mediocre arcs, and at least one bad arc. Now, insofar as the series manages to conclude some of its various overall plotlines, it generally sticks the landing (Ventress, regrettably, got left on the cutting room floor), so there absolutely is a worthy payoff to all of this, which is more than can be said of a lot of kid-oriented sci-fi.


That's a pretty fair assessment, yeah.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 9: Plan of Dissent*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Krell turned the airbase into the 501st's temporary HQ. Umabarans insurgents are trying to take it back but for now the clones can manage the situation. Hardcase and Fives are still a bit salty that Krell hasn't even thanked them for their heroics. Meanwhile Kenobi calls his colleague, the umbarans use a different hologram technology than everybody else: the holos are made up of hundreds of little cube of lights that gather together and move around. Very good looking. Kenobi's troops haven't taken the capital since the defenders are using long range missiles (I'm not sure how that helps in that situation, but okay). Turns out that now that the airbase is lost the umbarans are being supllied by a transport ship in orbit. It seems to be part of a Separatist counter-attack (that's my guess since the Separatist fleet stationed there was destroyed two episodes ago). The republicans are outnumbered in space o destroying that supply ship isn't on the table for now. Krell decides that they'll just have to do with the missiles and tell Kenobi his battalion will join with his. Then the communication is cut, jammed by the enemy.

Krell gives Rex twelve hours to have the men ready to leave. Rex wants to try and contact Kenobi again. Krell thinks there's no time (plus the jamming) as both armies have their hands full (just at that moment stuff blows up in the distance). The General tells the captain that, although he "hasn't always agreed with his strategies", he is both loyal and smart enough to obey and leaves. No prize for guessing how the men take their new assignment. Fives even says that the enemy missiles have a hundred megaton yield. what the ****? That's almost twice as powerful as the Tsar Bomba and they're using it on their own territory! Are they completely insane? The other clones again wonder if Krell hates them or what. And, again, Dogma is the only one who takes the general's side. One clone, Jesse, thinks Krell's desire to win blinds him to the casualty. His casualty numbers being much higher than the other generals. Fives thinks he's out of control and behaves nothing like the other Jedi. Rex agrees with them, but he hasn't a better plan to offer. Fives does: use the umbaran fighters, and their access codes (which Jesse cracked) to sneak past the ship's defenses and destroy it.

Rex immediately suggests that plan to Krell "with all due respect." Krell points out they don't have any pilot to do that. Rex points out that two of them already managed to fly these fighters so they can be trained quickly. Krell refuse to waste clones on "frivolous adventures." Three enemy missiles narrowly miss the airbase and destroy a few trees (100-megaton yield, my ass). Rex tell Fives and Co that the plan is going on unmodified, so Fives suggest they still do his thing, without approval and suffer the consequences. Rex says if he were in charge and they had time to train, he'd go for it, but they'd be court-martialed and they aren't pilots. Jesse thinks that if Hardcase can fly these things any of them can, but Top doesn't share the sentiment. Then Dogma comes in and everybody just awkwardly stops talking. Not suspicious at all. Fives leaves with Rex to keep arguing. He thinks marching blindly to their death is a weird notion of honour. Rex tells him that they have to obey orders if they support the system they fight for. Fives retorts that he does, but he isn't another number, none of them are! (Fives, you've got a "5" tattooed on your brow.) then he leaves to find pilots.

A bit later, in the hangar, Hardcase tries to get a better grip of the fighters' controls. And loses control immediately, knocking crates around and almost knocking out clones. Fives says it can get much worse and the clone next o him shoots him a glance as an alarm starts ringing. Oldie but goldie. One clone in the HQ tells Krell about the disturbance and the general immediately calls to ask what is going on. Fives tries to come up with excuses, and honestly even without Hardcase accidentally starting to fire I don't think the Jedi would have bought it. "Who is this!? What's your CT number!?" Aaaand Hardcase fires a big blast that destroys the door, prompting Krell to go there in person. Heh, it was a boring conversation anyway. Hardcase finally manages to land his plane just as Krell and Rex come in. Hardcase immediately blames the incident on an enemy booby-trap in the ship they were trying to hack, and had he not managed to climb inside and redirect the missile to the door, something worse might have happened. Fives confirms his story. Krell conclude that that means the fighters can't be flown at all and he orders them locked down. Hardcase isn't really bothered by this since they were already planning to go against orders. Jesse walks to him and says that he thought the plan was to destroy the enemy ships, not their own hangar. Okay he wanted to tell that one when Hardcase landed but had to wait until Krell left, didn't he? I hate that, when you think of a good joke but you can't place it in discussion before the right moment passes. I feel you, Jesse. regardless, Jesse and Hradcase volunteers to fly with Fives. Fives explains that Anakin told him about the battle of Naboo, so he figures they're going to do the exact same thing he did back then only, you know, intentionally.  I would say there's no way they haven't thought of moving the reactors further away from the hangars in all those years, but I think it's been established that "intelligent arms design" isn't the CIS's strong point.

Before leaving, they meet Rex (who's on patrol) to tell him they're doing it and they want to know if he'll try to stop them. He just says he can't help them when they get caught (fence-sitter). They sneak aboard three fighters and  take-off. Jesse explains he's doing it specifically to spite Krell and Hardcase is doing it for fun. The Grand Army of the Republic, everyone. Meanwhile, in the barracks, Dogma wakes up and notices they aren't there. He wakes Top up and asks where they are. He puts two and two together when his brother refuses to answer so he says they have to tell the general. Top doesn't want to but Dogma says they have to or be court-martial for complicity in their insubordination. I mean, it's not like anyone could prove you knew anything... Anyway, that convinces Top. Back with our three improvised pilots, they've reached the space battle and it's an impressive one, all the ships are grouped together flying at various angles, it's very chaotic. The Seppies leave them alone, to their relief and, to my disappointment, no Republican fires at them. They head for the supply ship, it's a lucrehulk ship without the usual ring-like structure and split in half, with some bridge connecting both hemispheres, for some reason.

Back on the ground, Krell demands tp know why three fighters just left his base. Rex says he's authorized a reconnaissance ahead of their planned path for the next day to make Krell's strategy more effective. Krell doesn't buy it and demands to see this report as soon as the ships are back. As he leaves, Rex spots Dogma and Top on their way to see Krell. He intercepts them. Dogma say they have a personal matter to discuss with the general. The captain say they can tell him and he'll pass it to the general. Dogma backs off. The pilots get inside the transport ship just as the B1's end their break time (what?). One of them recognizes the pilots as clones. One B1 on the bridge see a button blink and tell the tactic droids in charge there are clones in the main hangar, which that droid deems impossible (then why do you have an alarm light, _specifically_ for that situation?). The droids close a door to stop the clones, but Hardcase has figured out how to "open" hangar doors with his fighter. The tactician accepts reality and has the next door ray-shielded, which means the fighters can't destroy them (they could blast through ray-shields last episode, what gives?). They're cornered and the droids' little blasters are slowly eating away at their shields. Hardcase decides to drop his ship's magazine and leaves it. he tells the order to leave while he goes in through a little door with his big alien crate of ammo. Fives yells at him not to do it. Hardcase tells him to follow at least one order this day and get out (pretty sure he outranks you, man). Jesse tells Fives that Hardcase isn't going to back down and they leave just as hardcase throws the ammo at the reactor making explode. He tells them to lie to fight another day as he closes his eyes. The other two just barely escape the fireball and head back to the ground.

Rex and Top welcome them and they all take a moment to mourn Hardcase. They are then summoned by Krell. tHe general says they have committed a brave act, that was also a serious crime. Both Fives and Rex try to take blame but Krell isn't listening to them. He says that ARC-5555 and CT-5597 (holy crap, he does know the number of *every* clone in the battalion) shall be court-martialed, found guilty and executed.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Like I said, I had watched the next episode before that one, so I had figured out that Hardcase wouldn't come back. I'm not sure his death would have hit me differently if he hadn't known since he was basically a copy (heh) of Heavy from Domino squad.

It's been a while since we had a good old space battle too. Can't say when at the top of my head but I'd like a proper one soon-ish.

Rex's argument about "supporting the system means obeying order" would be a bad one in normal circumstances, but really the clones don't have any reason to support the system, anyway.

This episode was considerably more well-lit than the previous ones, so it was much easier to tell the clone apart and notice the little bit of customization on their armor: Dogma has a downward pointing arrow painted on his armour and tattooed on his face, Hardcase three vertical lines on his helmet, Top has a topknot and Jesse a Republic symbol both on his head and helmet. Fives and rex have their shoulder pads, of course.


Next up: *Carnage of Krell*.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

I skipped most of Umbara when I watched TCW, interesting to see this.

What they're going for is the Clones individualism as against Krell's inflexibibity, but the Clones actually did have a bad plan that only works due to plot armour.

*Spoiler*
Show

Of course he does end up being a traitor.

----------


## Keltest

> I skipped most of Umbara when I watched TCW, interesting to see this.
> 
> What they're going for is the Clones individualism as against Krell's inflexibibity, but the Clones actually did have a bad plan that only works due to plot armour.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Of course he does end up being a traitor.


They did have a bad plan, but its at least somewhat implied that they have to make due with a bad plan because of Krell putting them in that position in the first place.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I skipped most of Umbara when I watched TCW, interesting to see this.
> 
> What they're going for is the Clones individualism as against Krell's inflexibibity, but the Clones actually did have a bad plan that only works due to plot armour.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Of course he does end up being a traitor.


I don't think it's a bad plan? The only flaw I can see is the lack of pilots, but the fighter's controls are intuitive enough they managed very well last episode, so...

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 10: Carnage of Krell*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

We open with Rex pleading for mercy for Fives and Jesse, to no avail of course. Well, to some avail. Krell decides not to court-martial the two, but to have them summarily executed as an example of the price for insubordination. Immediately. Rex goes to the jail section of the base, where we get a shot of the captured Umbarans (this is the last time we see them, by the way) and breaks the news to the two unlucky clones. Jesse is outraged (naturally) and Fives tell Rex that Krell is using his loyalty to control the rest of the battalion, but also that they knew the consequences when they acted (Jesse didn't).

The execution squad is lead by Dogma and includes Top. I don't think it's policy in any army to have people be executed by their own squadmates, but story got to story. Fives takes the opportunity to throw one last jab at Dogma while refusing blindfolds. Fives also makes a little speech about the clones' right to make their own decision in front of wrong orders just before Dogma orders "Fire!" The squad fires... and all six of them miss (they miss so bad they make ten impact marks despite all shooting once). You know, there has been case where an execution squad genuinely all missed in real life, but of course they missed on purpose. Rex orders the two prisoners released while dogma rants that they have to go through with their orders. "Good luck finding anyone to do it."

Krell has Rex and Dogma summoned and tell Rex he is making a mistake. They are interrupted by a communication form a trooper telling Krell that the Umbarans have ambushed a platoon and seized their weapons and uniforms. They are preparing a massive attack. Krell decides to delay their little chat and orders Rex to put the two "traitors" back in the brig and marshall their forces. Oh and to make sure they are aware the enemy may diguise themselves as clones.

As Rex's platoon is advancing to meet the Umbarans, one clone (Top?) stops Dogma from walking into the same kind of carnivorous plant that almost ate Hardcase when they first landed. Just as they're done staring at it, they get fired at. They answer in kind but it takes them a while to spot the enemy. Who is indeed wearing clone armour. With the yellow markings of the 212th battalion (Kenobi's unit). The fight is pretty even with both sides taking heavy casualties. Until Rex spots a dead assailant on the ground and notices he is not only not wearing the Umbarans' usual environment suit (which would not fit) but seems to have an exposed throat and chin under his helmet. Rex takes off the dead soldier's helmet to see his own face staring dead at him. Not a welcome sight in any situation. Rex runs to the battlefield yelling at everyone to stop firing and take off their helmet to show they're all clones. Since everybody takes a moment to register what he is saying he has to take off his own helmet and wrestle one of the 212th out of his to get everybody to stop killing each other.

Awkwaaaard. As everybody tries to process what happened, one of Rex's soldiers told him he found the platoon leader who is wounded but still alive. It's Waxxer from the Ryloth episodes. And, oh god, he's got a picture of the twi'lek child drawn on his helmet. Waxxer tell Rex that it was Krell who sent them to these coordinates and told them the enemy was wearing clone armour. And then he dies with a tear on his cheek. Rex gathers the survivors of the two units and tells them that what he is planning something highly treasonous so if anyone wants to opt out, now is the time. They all step forward. You know, I usually dislike this specific story beat where *everybody* sides with the heroes but in this particular case, yeah, it makes sense. Anyway, Rex tells them his plan: to arrest Krell for treason.

As they walk back into the airbase, though, Dogma slips away. Rex heads for the brig and lets Fives and Jesse out. Once in headquarters they surround Krell and notify him he is relieved of duty. "It's treason, then." No, you did not! Krell even corrects himself one line later as he tells Rex this is mutiny. When asked why he ordered the troops against one another he answers he is surprised that Rex could figure that out, for a clone. Again, that is not how sentences work. Of course, the rogue Jedi doesn't surrender without a fight. He Force pushes everybody away from him and unsheathes his lightsabers. A tears through them, states he won't be undermined by creatures bread in some laboratory and flees through the window. Huh, you were winning? despite all the base now attacking him, he makes it to the forest surrounding them. Rex and Co are in hot pursuit but dogma stops them by pointing his rifle at Rex. he says they are all traitors and it is his duty to stop them. Going to fight everybody alone, Dogma? Rex takes off his helmet and tell him they were designed to blindly follow order but they're not droids, so they have to learn how to make their own decisions. Just a reminder that everybody in this scene is about eleven years old. Dogma stands down and Rex has him sent to the brig.

While in the forest Krell strikes back at his pursuers but when he gets to Rex's group he chooses to do the "talk from a distance while the heroes try to find the monster" trope. How is that even supposed to work, anyway? He gloats that rex should have listened to fives all along. I mean, it's not like Fives guessed he was a traitor, so... Krell starts fighting them then at one points he puts his lightsabers away and starts beating the crap out of them bare-handed. Okay, now that's just disrespectful. However when he throws Top away, the latter lands near a carnivorous plant and tell Rex to lure Krell towards him. which they do. Krell charges blindly at the lone clone and is caught by the plant monster. He still fights for a while but ends up stunned by Top as the monster is killed.

Back to the brig, with Krell in the cell this time, next to Dogma. Rex asks him why he did all that. rell says he did it because he could, because they're inferior and because he has foreseen the rise of a new power that will wipe out the Jedi and he intends to be part of it. However he admits to not actually be working under Dooku. Yet. He thinks the Count will take him as an apprentice as rewards for driving the Republic out of Umbara. Dogma... does not take this well, especially since he still sided with him _after_ he made his kill his brothers. Krell just laughs and calls him the biggest fool of them all. Accurate. Rex tell the traitor he will be dealt with as such but Krell simply says he will be freed when the Umbarans take back the base. Making a lot of assumptions there.

As Rex leaves, he is told that the transmitter, who had apparently been sabotaged by Krell has been repaired and they've received a message from Obi-Wan. The cpaital city has fallen but the remaining umbaran fighters are headed their way. The clones are afraid that Krell could turn over a lot of intel to the Separatists if he is freed. Rex agrees that Krell is a threat as long as he is alive. They come back to the brig and free Dogma (why didn't they do that beofre?) And Rex, taking out his pistol, orders Krell to face the wall and drop on his knees. Krell does it and asks if Rex enjoys his newfound power. then he mocks the fear he feels in him. He says rex can't do it and Rex seems to agree. What the hell Rex, I saw you execute defeated wounded enemies two episodes ago, why couldn't you do this? Anyway, Krell is shot in the back by Dogma who had stolen Fives' gun. Dogma just says Krell had betrayed them.

Cut to later, Dogma is taken away in cuffs while Fives tells Rex Kenobi and his battalions ahve routed the last of the Umbaran forces and that the planet is now firmly under republic control. Rex doesn't really react to the news, just pointing at everything and wondering why. Fives says he doesn't know, he reckon nobody actually knows, but one day the war is going to end. This just makes Rex wonders what will happen to them then. End of the episode.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

And that was the last episode of the Umbaran arc. Definitely the best arc of this season so far. Rex has really grown as a character, hasn't he? I understand why, Doylistically speaking he had to lead the charge against Krell at the end but it would have been nice if they'd explain why contacting Obi-Wan after the forest incident wasn't an option.

Waxxer's death was a gut-punch. Even though we didn't know him the reminder of his bound with the little twi'lek girl and the the ignominiosity of it made it quite painful.

Now, Krell. I'm not really fond of the all "the guy on their side the heroes find unlikeable turns out to be a secret bad guy" trope. Sometimes you don't get along with people and that's just it, neither of you are evil or anything, you just can't stand each other a,d I'd like to see that reflected more in fiction. Especially since it's all too common for fiction to forget that other characters don't share the protagonist's point of view. With that said, Krell was a nice antagonist, certainly in the show's top ten, as the creeping realization that this guy isn't actually on their side and that the clones will have to defy their command structure (which is the main point of reference they have in their life) was very well executed and it was made for a different sort of conflict than "Jedi slashes bad guys until problem is solved." With that said, his plan was *terrible*. Like, be a **** general on purpose and hope that impresses Dooku enough for him to recruit you? Without having told him in advance that was what you were doing? why not simply defecting and bargaining the intel you have into an apprenticeship? I'm not sure why they didn't have him be already under Dooku's employ, even with this as a test Tyranus assigned him to prove his cunning or something.

I hope we see Jesse and Top again after this. I also wonder what will happen to Dogma since he had no authority to do what he did and that his brothers apparently did tell on him. Also it was kind of awkward that the writers had to have the clones free him when Rex decides to execute Krell because they couldn't justify his presence in the brig otherwise. Not sure how that could have been done better to be honest. 



Next up: *Kidnapped*, hopefully. The file error hasn't been fixed, so I hope it only concerned these four episodes. In any case, the previous episodes seem to be in the right order. Also, I wonder if we are going to see what Anakin was recalled to do while this was going down.

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## Keltest

Honestly, i dislike Krell as a villain here because apparently even before he decided to openly betray the republic, he was a terrible general and a terrible jedi. Every Jedi from Yoda on down respects the clones as living individuals, because thats just who the Jedi are, except for this guy apparently. And they still let him be in charge in spite of his massive casualty rates and visible disrespect towards the lives under his command? How did he ever get as far as he did in the first place?

He may have been better as a padawan commander or something here. Really force the issue of competence versus chain of command, and show the corrupting effects the war is having on the more impressionable Jedi.

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## Fyraltari

> Honestly, i dislike Krell as a villain here because apparently even before he decided to openly betray the republic, he was a terrible general and a terrible jedi. Every Jedi from Yoda on down respects the clones as living individuals, because thats just who the Jedi are, except for this guy apparently. And they still let him be in charge in spite of his massive casualty rates and visible disrespect towards the lives under his command? How did he ever get as far as he did in the first place?
> 
> He may have been better as a padawan commander or something here. Really force the issue of competence versus chain of command, and show the corrupting effects the war is having on the more impressionable Jedi.


Thing is, he apparently won every battle he was in charge of. The war has only been going on for one or two years at this point and the GDA doesn't seem to be the kind of place where a clone can file a formal complaint about his superior so provided he toned down the aggressiveness in front of his colleagues it's not unreasonable.

Also forgot to say that: how did he fake that message about the stolen armours?

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## Keltest

Winning a battle at like a third of the effectiveness of any other general isnt exactly a ringing endorsement.

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## Precure

Krell is one of those guys you just love to hate, someone you watch to see their comeuppance.

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## Fyraltari

> Winning a battle at like a third of the effectiveness of any other general isnt exactly a ringing endorsement.


Yes, but it's not like the Republic was going to demote him for having higher casualty rates than everybody else, since being a Jedi Master makes you a general automatically and the Republic does not care about the lives of the clones.

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## Keltest

> Yes, but it's not like the Republic was going to demote him for having higher casualty rates than everybody else, since being a Jedi Master makes you a general automatically and the Republic does not care about the lives of the clones.


The republic wouldnt, but the Jedi might. Not every Jedi was a serving general, and even if he won, if he depletes the ranks of the clones that severely its kind of meaningless. To say nothing of his wanton disregard for life and limb of his troops that should disqualify him from jedi general status automatically. Put him in charge of security somewhere or something like that.

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## Mechalich

With regard to Krell's record, it's worth noting that a significant number of Jedi are _losing_ the battles they lead, because the Jedi, on the whole, have no war college training and no idea how to actually prosecute a war in space. Anakin, after all, is the best or second best (it's him or Obi-Wan) general in the whole blasted GAR, and he's not a master. Several other Knights, notably Ayla Secura, also become high-powered generals because they turn out to be a lot better at this whole war thing than the typical Jedi who can't lead their army out of a paper bag. This would matter more is the Separatist officers were any better, but for the most part, they're equally terrible corporatists who think about war as an economics term paper. Remember, Grievous is the _best general the Separatists have_. The overall incompetence of both sides fighting the Clone Wars at the leadership level is an interesting factor in the war as a whole and has certain historical parallels we can't discuss. 

Of course, the Jedi do get a lot better at war of the course of the Clone Wars. Successful Jedi acquire experience, learn to listen to their Clones, and get promoted, while incompetent Jedi mostly die because unlike Krell they lead from the front and pay for their bad decisions with their lives by making heroic final stands. The Jedi Order takes huge casualties during the Clone Wars but the surviving Jedi at the end are the head of a lean mean fighting machine that has acquired mastery over the current demands of warfare. Yet another reason Palpatine absolutely has to get rid of them.

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## Fyraltari

> The republic wouldnt, but the Jedi might. Not every Jedi was a serving general, and even if he won, if he depletes the ranks of the clones that severely its kind of meaningless. To say nothing of his wanton disregard for life and limb of his troops that should disqualify him from jedi general status automatically. Put him in charge of security somewhere or something like that.


Thing is, the Jedi are busy, I don't think they have time to police each other very much. Padawans and Knights are probably under a lot more scrutiny than Masters who are expected to be good. Besides Rex who already knew him by reputation had a high opinion of him when they first met. It seems to me that his decision to sabotage his side was relatively recent and that until then he was an excellent tactician. He says he intended to actually defect once the battle for Umbara was over (and his "the enemy is wearing our armour" trick was doomed to be discovered at some point so he was likely telling the truth) so it's also possible he simply wasn't as blatant about it before.
Since he would be the one making the reports to the Jedi Council, it'd be easy for him to point all of his tactical choices as the most sensible ones (if the clones hadn't stolen the fighters twice to solve the situations and the 501st had gone with his plan, the Council would never had known there were other viable tactics, for example). And for a while he could justify higher than average casualty numbers with "I was assigned tougher than average battles", which given his reputation would probably be true.

Could he have sustained that behaviour long term? No. But for a few months with all the other Jedi busy fighting their own battles? I buy it.

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## Sapphire Guard

When every episode has a crazy plan that makes no sense, how can we tell the plans that are supposed to be crazy plans that make no sense from every other plan?

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## pendell

This is what the Clone Wars were _for_ I think. To get the Jedi separated, isolated, out of touch with each other , surrounded by the chaos and general dark-sided nature of war.  You would expect, in those circumstances, some of them to fall all the way to the dark side as this Jedi did.   Even those who remain upstanding are clouded, compromised, out of touch with the Force and with each other. That makes them easier prey when Order 66 rolls around. 

It also makes it easier to get the clones to carry out Order 66 without needing inhibitor chips or violate their moral conscience. In the movies, we see the best of the Jedi Order in Yoda or in Mace Windu or in Obi-Wan Kenobi. But if you're a clone who's had to arrest or kill a rogue Jedi or two, if the worst of them are traitors mad with power such as this episode's antagonist while the best are remote, unattached beings like Yoda seen occasionally on hologram, well, Order 66 becomes very easy. It doesn't _feel_ like a genocide to the ordinary trooper. It feels more like putting down a mad dog.  

The Jedi lost the Clone Wars by fighting them at all. Perhaps that is the lesson we were supposed to learn on the bridge of the Death Star in Ep. VI when Luke threw his lightsaber away?  That fighting the Dark Side with the Dark Side is ultimately futile? That even if you fight Vader it is only to become Vader in his place? 


Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Fyraltari

> This is what the Clone Wars were _for_ I think.


Partially. The main point of the Clone War was to get the people at large to agree to a gradual increase in Palpatine's powers and authoritarian policies (such as the creation of the GAR in the first place) and provide the necessary boogeyman (the Outer Rim nonhumans) that all totalitarian regimes require.

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## Jasdoif

> Partially. The main point of the Clone War was to get the people at large to agree to a gradual increase in Palpatine's powers and authoritarian policies (such as the creation of the GAR in the first place) and provide the necessary boogeyman (the Outer Rim nonhumans) that all totalitarian regimes require.


Also to spread the Jedi thin enough to have their numbers reduced piecemeal, until wiping them out en masse was on the table.

It's hard to say which was the primary point..or if there _was_ a primary point, as there's a lot of interaction between those goals.

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## Sapphire Guard

It's Palpatine. There are always plans within plans.

The problem with not fighting the Clone Wars is that doesn't help either. You just end up with Obi and Padme dead in the arena, Anakin either dead or turned, and the war starts anyway. The Jedi either die with the Clones, or die when the Droids march in. Still a lose-lose.

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## Fyraltari

> The problem with not fighting the Clone Wars is that doesn't help either. You just end up with Obi and Padme dead in the arena, Anakin either dead or turned, and the war starts anyway. The Jedi either die with the Clones, or die when the Droids march in. Still a lose-lose.


Not necessarily, even after the battle of Geonosis the Jedi were under no obligation to accept the positions of officers in the army. Yoda was the one who brought in the clones apparently on his own authority not the Order's so even if he was called hypocritical for refusing to fight a war he started he could simply have stepped down from his position as Grandmaster. A small sacrifice to preserve his Order's purity of purpose.

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## pendell

Thinking about this, probably the optimal way for the Jedi to end this would have been to detect Palpatine as the Sith Lord and arrest him in the time of Episode 2.   I don't see any way to stop the clone wars from happening unless we arrest or kill the two sith lords who are provoking the conflict.   I don't see how they could have avoided the events of Episode 2, but perhaps one counterfactual would be if Yoda kept back a significant part of the Jedi Order and made the discovery of the Sith Lord a top priority, rather than allowing it to be put on the back burner while scattering the Jedi across the galaxy at the heads of clone armies.  A job they were singularly ill-equipped to perform, having no military training or experience whatsoever, and moreover made them very vulnerable.  

I think the reason this happened is because the old Jedi Order was too closely aligned with the Republic itself. They were so worried about enemies without they didn't consider enemies within.  They knew that Darth Tyrannus led the Confederacy, so they may have assumed that Republic vs. Confederacy was synonymous with Jedi vs. Sith. That, after all, had been the dichotomy in all the earlier wars and would recur in the time of the Galactic Civil War, between the all-Sith Empire and the all-Jedi Rebel Alliance.  

I think they believed so firmly in the external enemy that they didn't realize the Republic they idolized , even loved, was turning into a Sith Empire around them. But they were too focused on the external enemy to realize what was happening until the very end.  

So perhaps this could have been avoided if the Jedi had held back a significant part of their investigative and thinking resources and put effort into finding the Sith.  That's supposed to be what Jedi are for, after all. Detecting threats through prescience and foiling them before they ever become large enough to be a galactic problem. Presumably that is how they kept the peace for the preceding thousand years. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Fyraltari

> They knew that Darth Tyrannus led the Confederacy.


Nitpick: They knew Dooku was a Sith and they knew Jango Fett was hired by a man called Tyranus to serve as a gene-donor but they didn't know these two were one and the same. Else they would have been much warier of the clones.

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## Mechalich

> The problem with not fighting the Clone Wars is that doesn't help either. You just end up with Obi and Padme dead in the arena, Anakin either dead or turned, and the war starts anyway. The Jedi either die with the Clones, or die when the Droids march in. Still a lose-lose.


Not exactly. If the Jedi refuse to fight in the Clone Wars then they have to go into seclusion, since a very angry Republic justifiably kicks them out and takes away all their sweet, sweet subsidies. That means the Order has to retreat to Tython or Ossus or some other ancient Jedi world and sit out the war while trying to husband their strength for the aftermath. 

The Republic can still use the Clones, though they'll be less effective due to the change in expected leadership and the lack of Jedi special forces options, so the war will be a lot more brutal, the Separatists will do better early on, and an extra handful of superweapons will be used effectively so the number of atrocities (inevitably on both sides) will skyrocket. All things being equal, the Republic still wins since it has a substantially larger population and a substantially larger economy than the CIS but the absence of the Jedi massively ups the variability. For example, with no Jedi around, that crazy scientist probably manages to successfully unleash his modified Blue Shadow Virus and successfully obliterate the population of whole sectors, which could potentially alter the course of the war. 

Palpatine would, of course, attempt to covertly wipe out the Jedi wherever they took refuge, but that would be tricky since a camp full of Jedi is awfully hard to infiltrate, and rolling up a fleet to bombard the place would be far too obvious. He'd probably due some damage, but nowhere near enough. 

It's also likely that the absence of Jedi from the military leadership would seriously hinder Palpatine's efforts at political consolidation. The perceived trustworthiness of the Jedi surely made voting the Supreme Chancellor additional emergency powers far more palpable that it would have been otherwise for many worlds, and Jedi-empowered military victories drastically reduced the burden of war on worlds that wanted no part of the whole conflict and would have preferred a separate peace to avoid the massive financial burden of warfare (and if Kamino were lost and the Republic had to institute a draft well...). It's very possible that Palpatine would have been unable to retain leadership under these circumstances, especially if the war stretched on to five or six years (the Clone Wars unfold in a remarkably short three years considering the size of the conflict). It's also possible that without the Jedi running interference for him some third-party actor (Maul, Ventress, etc) would have forced a reveal of his force abilities by attempting to assassinate him.

Now, in this situation Palpatine can always go the Sidious route and simply take control of the CIS and attempt to conquer the galaxy that way, and if he sabotages the Republic on the way out he might even succeed, except...the moment he does that the Jedi come roaring back and it becomes yet another Sith War, and the Sith _always lose_ those. 

The bottom line is that there is actually a fairly strong case the the Galaxy would have been better off in the long run if the Jedi sat out the Clone Wars, at the cost of immensely more sort term suffering. Legends even established precedent for that course of action. However, the structure of the Clone Army helped to close the trap against that. Because Palpatine had the army programmed to consider the Jedi their leaders, turning aside from the war would mean abandoning not just some statistically projected future casualties, but the vast numbers of clones that desperately needed them, something the Jedi could not bring themselves to do. Even if Yoda or Windu had given that order, a number of Jedi - almost certainly including Anakin and Obi-Wan - would have remained to lead the Clones as part of a militarist faction, just as the Revanchists chose to fight the Mandalorians against the Council's orders thousands of years before.

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## Sapphire Guard

> Not necessarily, even after the battle of Geonosis the Jedi were under no obligation to accept the positions of officers in the army. Yoda was the one who brought in the clones apparently on his own authority not the Order's so even if he was called hypocritical for refusing to fight a war he started he could simply have stepped down from his position as Grandmaster. A small sacrifice to preserve his Order's purity of purpose.


The Jedi Order leads a Clone army into battle ( which has been secretly ordered by a Jedi Master) and then claims they aren't involved and have no obligation to fight? Nobody in the entire galaxy would buy that.




> The bottom line is that there is actually a fairly strong case the the Galaxy would have been better off in the long run if the Jedi sat out the Clone Wars, at the cost of immensely more sort term suffering.


There's an equal or better case that doing that would be a complete catastrophe.

The Jedi give up their association with the republic (and with it, any authority to restrict Palpatine's power) and go into seclusion. It would be very difficult to find somewhere to go that Dooku doesn't know about, and he can send as many Separatist fleets as he likes to destroy them wherever they hide, armed with things like the Defoliator, Blue Shadow Virus, the Malevolence, etc, and the Jedi now have no army or fleet to defend themselves with, and so are sitting ducks.

Dooku can just tell the CIS leadership 'they're lying about not being involved, a Jedi Master ordered the Clone Army for the republic, we need to destroy them when we have the chance.' and they'll go with it.

Also possible that Palpatine spins the Jedi in exile into 'the Jedi can no longer defend us, we need strong leadership to protect us in our hour of need.'

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## Peelee

> It's Palpatine. There are always plans within plans.


He even planned to come back from the dead in a video game! And to retake his Empire, but after he destroyed it!

Palpatine's supposed chessmaster abilities are something I hate. He could very easily have been super adaptable without the necessary plans within plans that make him needlessly "supersmart" which doesn't ever really come into play. He's always adapting, Lucas should just let that be his thing. 



> Not exactly. If the Jedi refuse to fight in the Clone Wars then they have to go into seclusion, since a very angry Republic justifiably kicks them out and takes away all their sweet, sweet subsidies.


Source?

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## Sapphire Guard

Blaming Lucas for TROS? Really? Years after he was out of the picture?

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## Peelee

> Blaming Lucas for TROS? Really? Years after he was out of the picture?


Not for TROS specifically, but for the prequel era works, which established Palps as the supposed great grandmaster. I am rather vocal about blaming the entire sequel trilogy on Abrams, and I apologize for making the two seem conflated there. I just wanted to mock how Palps ended up, and then went back to the source of how he ended up there.

ETA: For example, he didn't adapt to a damn thing in TROS, which made the character even worse. At least Lucas gave him _something_ he was good at, even if Lucas then claimed it was another thing.

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## Mechalich

> Source?


The economics of the Jedi Order have never been properly explained, but the Order has no established means to support itself. Its money has to come from the government somehow, and much of the equipment they use - especially military grade starfighters - is illegal for civilians to own. The Order may own the land own the Jedi Temple itself, but it's equally possible it's merely leased in perpetuity and the Republic could seize it at any time if they wished to do so.

Legends includes at least two relevant examples. First, in SWTOR, after the Treaty of Coruscant the Jedi were kicked out of official circles as part of the agreement and had to decamp to Tython. So we know the Republic has the power to boot the Order out if it wishes. Second, in the post-NJO EU the Galactic Alliance threatened the Jedi Order's funding on multiple occasions in order to make the Jedi play ball with government priorities. 

Ultimately the Jedi Order is a state-supported religious organization (the USA explicitly prohibits these, which I think often confuses American fans as to the nature of the Jedi Order). The state can kneecap the Jedi at any time simply by withdrawing support. Under normal circumstances the Jedi have sufficient political clout and popular support that this is utterly inconceivable (and the Republic's very organization makes taking drastic steps nearly impossible anyway), but if the Jedi had refused to fight during the Clone Wars? Oh yeah, Palpatine could have pushed that through.

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## Fyraltari

> Not exactly. If the Jedi refuse to fight in the Clone Wars then they have to go into seclusion, since a very angry Republic justifiably kicks them out


Why? I mean Palpatine certainly would if he could, but, as established by that very film, fighting the Republic's wars isn't the Jedi Order's mandate.



> The Jedi Order leads a Clone army into battle ( which has been secretly ordered by a Jedi Master)


Again Yoda lead the Clone Army into battle and with the specific intent of rescuing Obi-Wan not starting a war. The Jedi are literally not part of the army at this point. They could have just refused to be integrated into it and still serve the republic in the same capacity as they did since the fall of the Sith. And again if somebody wants to blame them for what happened, Yoda can take the blame since, y'know he _is_ actually the one to blame (within the Republic at least) for escalading this into a full-fledge battle.

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## Mechalich

> Why? I mean Palpatine certainly would if he could, but, as established by that very film, fighting the Republic's wars isn't the Jedi Order's mandate.


The public believes the Jedi Order serves them as guardians and defenders. They think the Jedi are obligated to protect them (most of the Jedi actually think this too, which is why if Yoda refused to fight it would cause a schism). Additionally, Palpatine and other Sith before him have spent decades to centuries working to turn public opinion against the Jedi to the point that by the time the Clone Wars begin many people are edging into 'necessary evil' territory with regards to the Jedi Order. If the Jedi Order refuses to fight on the behalf of the Republic the 'necessary' part vanishes and there will be a huge surge in anti-Jedi sentiment and a movement to vote away the support the government provides the Order. So if the Jedi refuse to fight, they will lose the ability to conduct their ordinary operations (many of which are suspended by the war anyway). 

And Sapphire Guard is correct that without public support the Jedi are somewhat vulnerable to outside attack. However, they're wrong in that Dooku would easily find them. The galaxy is vast and there's about 10 billion places an organization with a five-figure membership could go and avoid notice more or less forever. In fact, they wouldn't even need to leave the Core, the single planet of Alderaan is fully capable of accommodating the entire Jedi Order in secret in perpetuity (and Alderaan harbored Jedi in the past under similar circumstances, as seen in SWTOR).

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## Peelee

> The economics of the Jedi Order have never been properly explained, but the Order has no established means to support itself. Its money has to come from the government somehow, and much of the equipment they use - especially military grade starfighters - is illegal for civilians to own. The Order may own the land own the Jedi Temple itself, but it's equally possible it's merely leased in perpetuity and the Republic could seize it at any time if they wished to do so.
> 
> Legends includes at least two relevant examples. First, in SWTOR, after the Treaty of Coruscant the Jedi were kicked out of official circles as part of the agreement and had to decamp to Tython. So we know the Republic has the power to boot the Order out if it wishes. Second, in the post-NJO EU the Galactic Alliance threatened the Jedi Order's funding on multiple occasions in order to make the Jedi play ball with government priorities. 
> 
> Ultimately the Jedi Order is a state-supported religious organization (the USA explicitly prohibits these, which I think often confuses American fans as to the nature of the Jedi Order). The state can kneecap the Jedi at any time simply by withdrawing support. Under normal circumstances the Jedi have sufficient political clout and popular support that this is utterly inconceivable (and the Republic's very organization makes taking drastic steps nearly impossible anyway), but if the Jedi had refused to fight during the Clone Wars? Oh yeah, Palpatine could have pushed that through.


None of that tells me "The Jedi Order is a militant wing of the Republic".

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## Keltest

If were going to draw on the old canon, a gathering of Jedi in the tens of thousands would create a glare in the force equivalent to looking at the sun. Palpatine and Dooku wouldnt even have to look to find them, that many jedi together might as well be deliberately lighting a "Jedi Hideout Here!" sign in bright neon colors. In KoToR 2, such a gathering was even specifically detected and attacked by a Sith Lord, wiping out a substantial part of the order, as well as the entire planet's population.




> None of that tells me "The Republic is a militant wing of the Republic".


I assume you mean "the Jedi is a militant wing of the Republic" there.

Given that they call themselves knights, its not an entirely unreasonable assumption even without any other supporting data. The title meant more than just warrior, it was basically akin to being declared a shock trooper in times of battle, and frequently an officer as well, depending on who you served. You could be a warrior or soldier without being a knight, but not really the reverse. They might, possibly, be able to get away with backing out of the conflict and continuing to serve as mediators if they chose to ignore the obvious fact that Jedi, specifically, were being targeted by the Clone Wars, but given the lack of a formal Republic army, i think its fair to say that the Jedi were de facto the Republic's military arm as of the start of the Clone Wars.

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## Mechalich

> If were going to draw on the old canon, a gathering of Jedi in the tens of thousands would create a glare in the force equivalent to looking at the sun. Palpatine and Dooku wouldnt even have to look to find them, that many jedi together might as well be deliberately lighting a "Jedi Hideout Here!" sign in bright neon colors. In KoToR 2, such a gathering was even specifically detected and attacked by a Sith Lord, wiping out a substantial part of the order, as well as the entire planet's population.


Canon is contradictory on this point, as large numbers of Jedi absolutely did hide out undetected by the Sith on numerous occasions (for example, the Jedi hid out on Ossus to avoid Valkorion's purges during SWTOR), and of course large numbers of Sith managed to regularly do the converse. Kotor 2 is often a very bad source - in some ways deliberately - and is not dispositive. 




> Given that they call themselves knights, its not an entirely unreasonable assumption even without any other supporting data. The title meant more than just warrior, it was basically akin to being declared a shock trooper in times of battle, and frequently an officer as well, depending on who you served. You could be a warrior or soldier without being a knight, but not really the reverse. They might, possibly, be able to get away with backing out of the conflict and continuing to serve as mediators if they chose to ignore the obvious fact that Jedi, specifically, were being targeted by the Clone Wars, but given the lack of a formal Republic army, i think its fair to say that the Jedi were de facto the Republic's military arm as of the start of the Clone Wars.


The situation is complex. The Jedi Order works closely with members of the Judicial Department - the closest thing the Republic has to an army prior to the GAR's formation - and we see Jedi use of Judicial assets and personal at the beginning of Episode I. However, the Order also clearly retains a considerable amount of autonomy and to a very great extent is not subject to direct civic authority at all.

*Spoiler*
Show

A good example of this is found in TCW itself, in the episode 'The Wrong Jedi.' This episode makes it clear that members of the Jedi Order are subject to Jedi law, not Republic law, so long as they are members of the Order, because the Senate has to prevail upon the Order to expel Ahsoka before she can be tried by the Republic. However, the Council agrees to do this, which is illustrative of just how much pressure can be brought against the Order when the Republic wishes.


The Jedi Order is a militant religious order that is granted substantial privileges by the government - in this case the Republic, note that other governments, such as the Hutts, do not extend such privileges, which is a big part of why Qui-Gon does things the way he does on Tatooine in TPM - in return for the expectation of certain services. If the Jedi Order fails to provide those services the government is liable to rescind those privileges. There are, of course, extremely clear historical examples of how this works, but forum rules prohibit their discussion.

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## Jasdoif

> The situation is complex. The Jedi Order works closely with members of the Judicial Department - the closest thing the Republic has to an army prior to the GAR's formation - and we see Jedi use of Judicial assets and personal at the beginning of Episode I. However, the Order also clearly retains a considerable amount of autonomy and to a very great extent is not subject to direct civic authority at all.


The most coherent explanation I can distill, from the often-contradictory sources, is that the Republic considers the Jedi Order to technically be part _of_ the Judicial Department; one that's been granted an extremely high degree of internal autonomy to perform its function.  The Jedi Order, conversely, doesn't consider itself to be under the authority of the Republic; but their own core tenets include duties towards the Republic _specifically_, so it's exceedingly rare for conflict between these views to come up.

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## Peelee

> I assume you mean "the Jedi is a militant wing of the Republic" there.


I do appreciate the thought process of "I am aware that Peelee is not a smart man, but that one is kind of pushing it even for him." :Small Wink: 

Anyway, the Jedi (via of Yoda, a Jedi Master who held titles of both Grand Master and Master of the Jedi Order, and thus probably a fairly authoritative source on the subject) held to "only for defense, never for attack," "wars not make one great", and other such noncombative teachings. I would suggest that the Knight title, if it referred to a militant role at all, was a holdover from a bygone era, potentially millennia past.

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## Mechalich

> The most coherent explanation I can distill, from the often-contradictory sources, is that the Republic considers the Jedi Order to technically be part _of_ the Judicial Department; one that's been granted an extremely high degree of internal autonomy to perform its function.  The Jedi Order, conversely, doesn't consider itself to be under the authority of the Republic; but their own core tenets include duties towards the Republic _specifically_, so it's exceedingly rare for conflict between these views to come up.


The Order considers it has a duty to the Force and therefore to the people. The Republic is the representative of the people and as such service to the Republic is the only logical and practical option. However, if the Republic ceases to be the representative of the people the Jedi Order can stand aside. In Legends they did so during the Pius Dea Era, when the Republic was lost to theocracy. And they did so again during the Mandalorian Wars and numerous other smaller conflicts. And at the end of RotS, the Order also came to the conclusion that the Republic, under Palpatine, was no longer representative and they were prepared to overthrow it. This failed, but during the post-NJO Legends period the Jedi came to this conclusion again (twice), and succeeded in overthrowing the government.




> Anyway, the Jedi (via of Yoda, a Jedi Master who held titles of both Grand Master and Master of the Jedi Order, and thus probably a fairly authoritative source on the subject) held to "only for defense, never for attack," "wars not make one great", and other such noncombative teachings. I would suggest that the Knight title, if it referred to a militant role at all, was a holdover from a bygone era, potentially millennia past.


The in-universe historical record suggests that while Yoda may be correct philosophically, as a practical matter he is absolutely full-of-it when it comes to spouting these one-liners. 

Honestly, Yoda's legacy is actually really bad, and he made an awful lot of mistakes in when it comes to the downfall of the Republic and the rise of the Empire. He and Mace Windu botched things pretty hard, something TCW actually hits strongly in seasons to come.

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## Fyraltari

So the next episode isn't about what Qnakin was doing while **** was going down on Umbara.

Also despite being called "Kidnapped" it is entirely Padmé-free. That feels wrong.

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## Sapphire Guard

> Again Yoda lead the Clone Army into battle and with the specific intent of rescuing Obi-Wan not starting a war.


'I led a Republic army into battle to rescue one of my officials, but I didn't intend to start a war'.

No one in the entire galaxy would believe that was true (except, ironically, Palpatine).

 Leading an army into battle is about the clearest possible act of war, and the surviving Jedi do give orders to Clones once they are rescued, and it was also apparently ordered in secret for the Republic by a Jedi Master. Even if they do, it doesn't matter. Once a Republic Army is led into battle, it will be treated as an act of war by everyone concerned, regardless of what excuses anyone comes up with. It will just be assumed that Yoda is lying or being scapegoated.

If the Jedi do go into exile, all the Ancient Jedi worlds are out, because Dooku (and hence the Separatists) will know where they are. It would be very difficult to go anywhere undetected, as the Venators belong to the Republic, so they don't have their own fleet.

They could charter ships or something, but those ships would be very vulnerable to pirate attacks or Separatist interception. They'd have to bring the young, the old, the sick, the injured, etc, and the Archives and Holocrons etc, and figure out what to do with the Dark Side Artifacts vault. It would not be easy to be undetected.

The other option would be to scatter across the galaxy, which becomes a bit of a Turkey shoot for Grievous and requires them to leave the Archives, Holocrons etc behind.

*Spoiler: Late TCW*
Show



TCW does lean into the Jedi's failings, but it does so very badly, such as Ahsoka complaining about the Jedi being soldiers and meddling in politics, and then immediately leading a republic army into battle to meddle in politics on Mandalore.

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## Keltest

> I do appreciate the thought process of "I am aware that Peelee is not a smart man, but that one is kind of pushing it even for him."
> 
> Anyway, the Jedi (via of Yoda, a Jedi Master who held titles of both Grand Master and Master of the Jedi Order, and thus probably a fairly authoritative source on the subject) held to "only for defense, never for attack," "wars not make one great", and other such noncombative teachings. I would suggest that the Knight title, if it referred to a militant role at all, was a holdover from a bygone era, potentially millennia past.


Werent such Yoda-isms said to Luke in ESB, you know after Yoda sees the end of the Clone Wars result in the wiping out of the Jedi?

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## Peelee

I agree, the prequels _were_ poorly thought out and badly written.

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## Jasdoif

> Also despite being called "Kidnapped" it is entirely Padmé-free. That feels wrong.


I suppose they didn't want it to call it "Enslaved", because it'd get confusing with the following episode being "Slaves of the Republic".




> Werent such Yoda-isms said to Luke in ESB, you know after Yoda sees the end of the Clone Wars result in the wiping out of the Jedi?


This is pretty what what Dave Filoni said in that interview about the Yoda-centered arc in (eventually-aired) Season 6.


> What you get out of this story arc is that you understand, finally, that Yoda in the Clone Wars period is not at all the same person that he is in The Empire Strikes Back. People, I think, have always wondered, Why [in The Clone Wars] isnt he like he was in Empire? Hes not as odd, and hes not as quizzical. Why is he so much more serious in the Clone War and wheres the fun little Yoda who was wise? Well, hes not there yet, you see. The story that we tell goes a very long way toward explaining who Yoda is prior to the Clone War and who he becomes after the Clone War.

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## pendell

> 'I led a Republic army into battle to rescue one of my officials, but I didn't intend to start a war'.
> 
> No one in the entire galaxy would believe that was true (except, ironically, Palpatine).
> 
>  Leading an army into battle is about the clearest possible act of war, and the surviving Jedi do give orders to Clones once they are rescued, and it was also apparently ordered in secret for the Republic by a Jedi Master. Even if they do, it doesn't matter. Once a Republic Army is led into battle, it will be treated as an act of war by everyone concerned, regardless of what excuses anyone comes up with. It will just be assumed that Yoda is lying or being scapegoated.
> 
> If the Jedi do go into exile, all the Ancient Jedi worlds are out, because Dooku (and hence the Separatists) will know where they are. It would be very difficult to go anywhere undetected, as the Venators belong to the Republic, so they don't have their own fleet.
> 
> They could charter ships or something, but those ships would be very vulnerable to pirate attacks or Separatist interception. They'd have to bring the young, the old, the sick, the injured, etc, and the Archives and Holocrons etc, and figure out what to do with the Dark Side Artifacts vault. It would not be easy to be undetected.


I suggest that finding Jedi who don't want to be found is much harder than it is made out to be. They can commandeer ships and transport using Jedi mind trick.  They can make people "forget" that they were seen.  If they go into a thousand bolt holes it will be _very_ difficult to ferret them out, as there's a war on.  

As towards the holocrons and the rest of it, in the main timeline they lost those things _anyway_.  Because they were set up to be killed. Had they stayed out of the war, the war would have still gone along roughly the same lines. Because it's not a real war, but a puppet show staged by Sidious and Tyrannous.   They cannot allow the Separatists an outright victory, because both Palpatine and Dooku are human supremacists. The entire point of getting a lot of aliens such as the Trade Federation and the Geonosians and the Techno Union all on one side is so that the human-dominant Empire can crush them.   

However, if they allow the Republic to win quickly and easily, the cannot militarize the Republic to the point that it can be transformed into a Sith Empire.  Thus: Years of drawn out stalemate requiring ever more sacrifices, ever more "emergency" powers to the central government which will become first de facto, then legally, permanent once the Empire is inaugurated.  

If the Jedi should be doing anything in this war, it should be acting as mediators; calling the Republic back to its roots as a legal organization , addressing the cries for justice of the non-human separatists while addressing their own failings.   To negotiate peace in the original sense, not "aggressive negotations".  If the Sith want to start a galactic war than it is the job of the Jedi to throw as much sand in those gears as possible; to prevent the war, or at the least try to inhibit it and minimize it to the extent possible. That's the job of a noncombatant NGO , not the job of a military organization.   

Of course, both the Separatists and that faction of the Republic represented by Tarkin will be aiming to kill them,  but that's still better than almost literally setting themselves up as targets in front of clone armies, then putting on surprised-Pikachu face when they're shot from behind.

As towards the Dark Side artifacts ... :casually pulls out a thermal detonator: .. I have a suggestion. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Sapphire Guard

Noncombatant NGOs can only operate if the Combatants allow them to. Dooku just says 'We do not accept the Jedi Order's authority or neutrality, all Jedi in Separatist space will be treated as enemy combatants or spies.' Meanwhile, the Republic says 'we're in the middle of a war here, we don't have the troops to spare to protect you' and they're sitting ducks again. 

Any claim to neutrality is immediately ludicrous after they've already led a Republic army into battle. It won't work.

If they scatter across the galaxy, they might have a few more survivors, but they're not really in any better position than the canon timeline vis a vis Palpatine's Rise. 

Staying out of a war is much more complicated than just saying 'we don't want to be part of this war', and relies on the combatants agreeing to respect their wishes. The Jedi unilaterally deciding that they don't want to be part of the war is worthless, because neither of the combatants will care.

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## Mechalich

The Jedi Order, circa AotC is actually small enough that you could put the entire thing - even with very aggressive estimates of the size of the service corps, the number of initiates, and various support staff you're talking about less than 150,000 people - on a _single ship_. The _Executor_ had over twice that many crew and troops aboard, and while that's a very big ship it was militarily optimized. A large passenger liner or colony vessel, or a small group thereof could handle the entire Order and could cruise more or less indefinitely.

It's also important to recognize, just generally, that while the Clone Wars was the largest galactic conflict that had occurred to that point, it still left the majority of the galaxy completely untouched in terms of direct conflict. Huge areas, including whole sectors, saw no combat at all. 

And of course, the Sith had to be worried about the Jedi fleeing to the outer reaches of the galaxy because that had long been the Sith strategy. In the multi-millennia history of Sith attempts to conquer the galaxy the cycle went something like: get defeated by the Jedi and collapse, scatter to the fringe, unify behind a charismatic/powerful leader, build up their forces, acquire the allegiance of disaffected powers across the Rim, launch a devastating but unsustainable attack on the Republic, repeat. And insofar as there are Sith-adjacent elements that actually believe in the Separatist cause - Legends contains quite a few, and Ventress arguably starts here, they are absolutely attempting this on their own even though Dooku and Palpatine are using them as catspaws. Palpatine absolutely worries that the Jedi could try this against him to devastating effect and when he founds the Empire he brings the hammer down on the Rim as hard as he possibly can for precisely this reason and never lets up, conducting the largest military buildup in the history of the galaxy by an immense margin to the point of nearly bankrupting the Empire just to suppress dissent (it works too, the Rebellion was fostered by disaffected elements of the Core Worlds aristocracy, not Rim rebels). 




> Of course, both the Separatists and that faction of the Republic represented by Tarkin will be aiming to kill them, but that's still better than almost literally setting themselves up as targets in front of clone armies, then putting on surprised-Pikachu face when they're shot from behind.


Without the Jedi to lead the Clones, the Republic would have been in deep, deep trouble at in the opening stages of the Clone Wars. They would have faced immense losses early on and command and control issues would have made coordination of the various clone fleets extremely difficult. They might well have lost Kamino or had it blockaded, making the acquisition of Clone reinforcements impossible. Without Jedi heroics they also probably lose the assistance of the Hutt Clans and their secret hyperlanes - the events of the TCW movie, taking place very early in the war, are of _paramount_ strategic importance - which would make it impossible to render the supplies necessary to retain control of critical Mid and Outer Rim systems such as Rothana and Ryloth (Ryloth lacks military importance, but as the Twi'lek homeworld it retains critical morale importance to the galaxy's second most populous species). The Republic would be forced to fortify the Core and Colonies and lack of access to raw materials - because those areas are mostly depleted after thousands of years of extractive effort - would heavily restrict their ability to build up substantial new fleet assets. The would still probably win, by finding ways to exploit new asserts through recycling, exploitation of the Deep Core, or other means, but it might well take _decades._

And this isn't hypothetical. This is the plot of the Great Galactic War of SWTOR, and of the New Sith Wars Era. Of course, if a prolonged and widespread conflict of this nature occurs, Palpatine's plan collapses. This is, after all, why the Clones were necessary in the first place - to turn a 30 year war into a 3 year war - but the clone's efficacy without the Jedi would have been greatly diminished. Of course, Palpatine understood Jedi psychology and he knew the PT era Jedi were not going to step aside, it wasn't even a gamble on his part, and that's one of the failures of the PT-Era Jedi Order.

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## pendell

I don't suppose anyone's read Pratchett's Jingo? It's a very similar story in some regards.  A war is about to break out between Ankh-Morporkh and Klatch. Vimes has the choice of either obeying orders and being a good soldier, since all of Ankh-Morporkh is being put under arms, or of taking some action to *stop* the madness from occurring.  

We see both timelines play out as alternate histories in the course of the book.   In the primary timeline, Vimes disobeyed and was able to be part of thwarting the war, which was never fought. Oh, there were a few skirmishes, but nowhere near the holocaust which happened in the alternate timeline, which saw Ankh-Morporkh conquered by Klatch, everyone Vimes knew killed in the battle, including himself.  

The Jedi .. chose the alternate timeline. Instead of breaking out of their role and seeking a solution which didn't involve war, they allowed themselves to be caught up in the same madness as the rest of their galaxy, to their detriment and ultimate extinction. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Sapphire Guard

Read it, yes. 

*Spoiler: Jingo*
Show



Nothing like that happens. Vimes leads a mission to rescue Angua, the war is stopped by this out of pure luck and the machinations of Vetinari and Ahmed.




The thing that's not adding up for me is that the 'the Jedi should not have joined the war' perspective seems to rely on the idea that you can just opt out of a war by saying 'I'm not playing.' That doesn't work unless the combatants co-operate, which they would not. It's worthless unless Palpatine and Dooku are willing to play along. The revolutionary tactic of 'no, we don't recognise your neutrality' leaves any attempt at staying out of it dead in the water before it starts.

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## pendell

> Read it, yes. 
> 
> *Spoiler: Jingo*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing like that happens. Vimes leads a mission to rescue Angua, the war is stopped by this out of pure luck and the machinations of Vetinari and Ahmed.


*Spoiler*
Show

 
Note that Vimes swapped disorganizers with a vimes of a parallel universe. The disorganizer narrates the events which happens to the alternate universe vimes, which results in a final stand at Ankh-Morporkh and the death of every member of the Watch in the ensuing invasion, including Vimes.  Everything else is unchanged; Lord Vetinari and 71-hour Ahmed are still doing all they can to avert the war. But if Vimes was not in the right place and the right time, it would still be for nothing. 






> The thing that's not adding up for me is that the 'the Jedi should not have joined the war' perspective seems to rely on the idea that you can just opt out of a war by saying 'I'm not playing.' That doesn't work unless the combatants co-operate, which they would not. It's worthless unless Palpatine and Dooku are willing to play along. The revolutionary tactic of 'no, we don't recognise your neutrality' leaves any attempt at staying out of it dead in the water before it starts.


Probably the thing they will have to do is abandon the temple at Coruscant and scatter to the Outer Rim. It's a BIG galaxy, even bigger if the Jedi followed the Sith trick of keeping some hyper-routes secret such that there were parts of the galaxy they could access and no one else could, unless they wanted to travel in a generation ship and arrive thousands of  years too late. From there they could infiltrate into the Republic and the Confederacy covertly.  There's no way any non-Force user could stop them. Jedi precognition allows them to evade blaster fire or other ships, they can mind trick ship crews, they can stow away on craft much as Obi-Wan was able to roam the Death Star undetected by any save Darth Vader.  So unless you happen to be on the same ship as Sidious the bulk of the Jedi are going to escape.  

And sometimes ... sometimes if nothing else will serve, it's still a choice to go to a concentration camp than it is to be part of a giant evil.   It's been done before . 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Mechalich

> The thing that's not adding up for me is that the 'the Jedi should not have joined the war' perspective seems to rely on the idea that you can just opt out of a war by saying 'I'm not playing.' That doesn't work unless the combatants co-operate, which they would not. It's worthless unless Palpatine and Dooku are willing to play along. The revolutionary tactic of 'no, we don't recognise your neutrality' leaves any attempt at staying out of it dead in the water before it starts.


Except there were neutral powers during the Clone Wars. Duchess Satine led them for a time, there was a whole Season Two arc about it in the very show we're discussing. 

If the Jedi declare neutrality, Palpatine doesn't have the political capital to attack them - Order 66 only works because it's a _fait accompli_, he declares the Jedi enemies of the state after having killed them all. And yes Dooku can certainly use Separatist forces to attack them, but in order for that to happen he has to both know where they are, and that location has to be vulnerable to attack. If the Jedi go to a prominent Core World like Alderaan - Bail Organa would be only too happy to host them - they remain almost completely untouchable.

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## Sapphire Guard

*Spoiler: Jingo*
Show


Yes, Vimes helped, but it wasn't some kind of decision not to be a soldier, he chased after Angua and got lucky.



Palps has all the political capital he needs, because declaring neutrality after leading a belligerent army to attack Separatist leadership (which, as far as anyone knows, the Order commissioned in the first place) is completely ludicrous. The Jedi become the people that set fire to the Republic and then abandoned it in its hour of need.

If the Separatists attack Alderaan because of the Jedi presence there (one of the few things we know about Alderaan is that it's super unarmed), will Bail be so keen on watching his citizens die because of Jedi that won't raise their blades to defend their refuge?

*Spoiler: Mandalore*
Show



They only stayed neutral with repeated Jedi help, ultimately got dragged into the war and then the Mandalorians were reduced to handfuls of refugees due to Palpatine's empire. Not the best example.




The list of nations that tried to be neutral and got invaded regardless is a long list. Staying neutral during a major war is extremely difficult, it's not some kind of 'you can't touch me'  magic forcefield.

Scattering across the galaxy would be their best bet...but plenty can go wrong with that, too, and that leaves the Jedi completely incapable of doing anything to impede Palpatine's rise.

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## Dargaron

> Palps has all the political capital he needs, because declaring neutrality after leading a belligerent army to attack Separatist leadership (which, as far as anyone knows, the Order commissioned in the first place) is completely ludicrous. The Jedi become the people that set fire to the Republic and then abandoned it in its hour of need.


To add on to this, Palpatine could probably play up Dooku's status as a former Jedi, to the effect of "When the Jedi were forced to choose between abandoning the Republic or reining in one of their old comrades gone rogue, they chose the former." In this alternate scenario, Dooku doesn't play up his Sithness nearly as much, and is Darth Tyrannus only in private/when dealing with other dark siders.

Obviously, these examples hadn't been written yet when the prequel trilogy was released, but there _are_ Legends examples of rogue Jedi/former Jedi who the order _did_ feel was their obligation to track down and deal with: obviously the primary example is Revan from KOTOR days, but also in the Jedi Apprentice series, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn's primary antagonist was Qui-Gonn's former apprentice Xanatos (no, really!) who is very similar to Count Dooku in outward appearance: he came from a privileged background, which led to his defection from the Jedi Order (specifically after a mission where he and Qui-Gonn were assigned to take down his father for war crimes) and used his personal wealth + force abilities to accrue corporate assets for use in schemes against the Jedi Order and (secondarily) the Republic. So if the Jedi shirk their responsibility to deal with Dooku (who for all the public knows is just a rogue Jedi), awkward questions start being asked about why _this_ time is different.

EDIT: Actually, the first few books of _Jedi Apprentice_ had already been written/released before Attack of the Clones came out. My mistake.

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## Fyraltari

*season 4, Episode 11: Kidnapped*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

So the togruta planet of Kyros managed to create a society completely devoid of arms and violence. Unfortunately for them, the Separatists are going all "mine mine mine mine mine" on their planet. Their leader who has a thick (Portuguese?) accent the other togrutas don't share explain to Yoda on the holo-phone that he's just going to try to negotiate with Dooku. Yoda assures him he's sending help his way but a CIS fleet is already descending on the capital. Wow, really waited until the last moment to worry about this, didn't you? Turns out Dooku came in person (guess he wanted to stretch his legs a little bit?) with a tactical droid, a B1 with green markings I have never seen before and another guy from a species called the zygerrians. Dooku insists this is a "peaceful occupation" and when the togruta express worries about his people's safety, the Count tells him he is sending them to a safe heaven for their "protection". And he's not taking no for an answer.

Ten rotations (Because "days" doesn't sound sci-fi enough I suppose) Kenobi, Skywalker, Tano, the 501st and the 212th arrive. There are no sign of any Separatist crafts in the system, which is unusual but they don't react to it. I am guessing the various droids we see later were going to be abandoned? Seems like a waste. They land inside the capital and head for the city center. Ahsoka points out that the citizens are nowhere to be seen. Anakin says they're probably hiding which Obi-Wan points out means they don't have to worry about putting them in danger. Their group is eventually met by commando droids who are, like them, on speeders. both groups charge each other while firing away. Meh, needs more jousting. It's an alright fight scene and the Republic makes short work of the enemy (which also included two tanks and a handful of B1s). Kenobi orders Rex to secure the area.

A while later Boil reports some minor battles against "clankers" here and there and that they have surronded the governor's tower. Which is where the Separatist commander, named Darts Danar is barricaded. Danar sent a holo-message to Kenobi asking him to come to the tower to negotiate terms of surrender. Obi-Wan is pleased this operation is going so easily but Anakin pulls the display towards him a crushes it with a "Zygerrian scum! I'll handle that slaver." Holy ****s, Ani, calm down on the racism will ya? (even though it will turn out the guy is indeed a slaver). Also, are you going to pay for that display? They don't grow on trees, you know. Obi-Wan, however, wants Anakin to locate the missing colonists. Skywalker agrees to ask Yularen to make a planetary bioscan and leaves, still obviously pissed. Obi-Wan explains to Ahsoka that Anakin and his mother were sold into slavery by the Hutts when he was a child (Huh, I had assumed they were born into it) which is why he dislikes slavers so much.

In the governor's office Danar is talking to Dooku and another zygerrian who tells him the last shipment as arrived and wonders why Danar hasn't left. It's because he intends to make the Jedi pay for their arrogance. He claims he has them exactly where he wants. Surrounding him with vastly superior firepower. Oh, boy, he's that kind of villain, isn't he? Which is when Obi-Wan arrives. Dooku introduces him as a Jedi Knight (Okay, this is pissing me off, why does he call Anakin a Master, and Kenobi a Knight! What the **** is going on?) and asks Danar to bring him to him, on his knees. Danar clarifies to Obi-Wan that the surrender he was talkign about was Kenobi's. Kenobi stealthily opens his communicator so that Skywalker and tano can listen to the conversation. danr explains that he has planted bombs all over the city and he's going to blow everything up if the Jedi don't give up. To rpove his point he has his tactical droid blow up a building next to the tower. He admits that structure was empty, but it could have not been. Anakin has R2 locate the bombs (somehow) and hopes Obi-Wan can buy them enough time to disarm them all. I mean, since the detonator is not in Danar's hands but in his tactical droid's, I think Kenobi could easily snatch it form his hands and overpower everybody in the office. He has magic powers and a lightsaber, this isn't that hard.

Yet, Obi-wan surrenders his weapon. Darts rants about how the Jedi Order destroyed the "Great Zygerrian Slave-Empire" long ago and he's still pissed about that. À propos of nothing, his sleeves have lightning bolts decorations. Obi-Wan suggests they settle this in the old zygerrian tradition's way: an unarmed fight. If the Jedi wins, Danar will tell him where the citizens and the bombs are and if the Separatist wins, he will deliver Kenobi to Dooku in a cage, which is exactly what he was going to do anyway. I think the separatist high command has like, twenty brain cells that they have to share or something. Danar starts pummelling Kenobi. Meanwhile, Ani and Little 'Soka have reached the first bomb. It's just laying there in the open, guarded by a squad of droids, how di you missed it when taking control of the city? It's not even inside a building! Ahsoak ponders for a moment how to disarm it, but Anakin trusts his instinct and slashes it with his weapon.


They are both killed in the subsequent explosion.


Of course, Skywalker's "educated guess" works just fine and they move on. Back in the governor's office, Danar rants about how great their empire of slavers was and how everybody (but the slaves) prospered until the Jedi went and ruined the fun. Kenobi doesn't even bother to respond to that load of bull****. But he does stop Danar from taking a call telling him about what the other Jedi are doing. Ahsokanakin find the last couple of bombs, however they are linked and have to be disarmed at the same time. Problem is, a couple sniper-droidekas start shooting at them from a nearby rooftop and they have a metal shield that makes just reflecting their blasts straight at them not workable (why aren't more droids made of that blaster-proof alloy? Was it just too expensive?) however since they don't cover the sides the two Jedi can reflect each droid's blast at the other one and destroy them both. Or you could have Force-pulled them off the roof. Anyway, they disarm the bombs. A droid call Darts to tell him and Obi-Wan stops fooling around: he crushes the two commando droids that served as bodyguards for Darts with a flicker of his wrist and pulls his lightsaber to him. See, why didn't you do that in the first place?

However Danar reveals one last bomb: on his tactical droid's back! He switches it on and thorws the droid at Obi-Wan, pinning him to the ground (despite Kenobi effortlessly levitating two of them like not ten seconds ago). Obi-Wan throws the tactical droid through the window (he explodes harmlessly in mid-air) while danar escapes. Terrific job on stopping anyone from leaving the tower without a fight, Boil! Danar reaches the airfield where his ship is parked and takes off. However, Anakin has no intention of letting "that slaver scum" get away and both he and Ahsoka do a Yoshi-jump out of their walkers to reach his ship's hull.

Skywlker simply stabs an engine to stop the ship from leaving. Danar tries to shake them off by opening his cargo doors, but that just lets them inside so he unleashes one of the "pets" he has caged in there: some kind of hungry snail-cephalopod thing. Anakin tell Ahsoka to stabilize the ship while he handles it. She sneaks into the cockpit and kills the second reactor but the ship doesn't crash (must be lighter than I thought). Danar breaks out some sort of glowing whip to "teach Ahsoka her place" but of course, by the time Anakin gets to them she has him pinned on the control board, lightsabers to the throat. Anakin demands ti know where the colonists are, implicitly threatening to kill him if he doesn't talk; it freaks Ahsoka out. Danar gives in and explains his queen plans to bring back the old royal slave auctions.

Later the heroes report to the Jedi council and Yularen confirms what everyone suspected: the bioscan can find no trace of the colonists: they were all taken off-planet. The Jedi agree that the zygerrian plan on rebuilding their empire with Dooku's help and they won't allow it, but first they must find the abducted citizens. I suggest checking Zygerria. Yoda is worried that slavery is great tool for the rise of the Sith because they wanted a somewhat foreboding line to end the episode.

 

*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Darts is about as threatening an antagonist as his first name suggests. Still this light-hearted romp is rather welcome after the constant gloom of Umbara.

I wish _Star Wars_ would stop have entire species all do one job. Surely, all zygerrians cannot be actively involved in the slave trade. Also insert standard complaint about slavery making no sense when robotics is that common.

So Anakin has something against slavers. On one hand that makes sense, on the other from what we saw in TPM, as slaves, the skywalkers lived in their own somewhat-spacious home, had enough food (including fruits on a desert planet!) and he ahd enough free time to work on a droid and a podracer module in parallel. watto didn't appear to be abusive either. I agree that slavery sucks, but I don't think little Ani lacked any liberty that your average ten year old would have. hell, he might have had _less_ freedom at the Temple. And I don't see Shmi burdening him with how bad their situation actually was.


Next up: *Slaves of the Republic*. So... another clone-centric episode, then?

So, this was the eleventh episode out of twenty-two of season four out of seven. I can confidently say that I am at the midway point of this show. (The later seasons have fewer episodes, but they might be longer, I don't know.) Over the year (and some) it took me to get there, I can say that the show has improved a whole lot in terms of writing. The animation and acting where always excellent and there's no point telling you the music is top-notch, this is _Star Wars_, after all. Although some problems seems destined to persist all through the show: the unimpressive vilains, the Jedi forgetting about their powers for the plot's sake, Anakin being called a Master, and the inconsistent level a threat a given group of droids is supposed to represent. I had also assumed there would have been some progress on the whole Maul-Dooku-Nightsisters plot by now.

The show was originally cancelled after season 5 ended, yes? I ask because the first episode of season 5 is titled "Revival", so that's confusing. And I see the first episode of season 6 is called "The Lost Misisons Episode 1 the Unknown". The Lost missions were the rough cut-work in progress of the planned future episodes, yes? Did they remake these, eventually when the show got uncancelled? I ask because I think some of the Maul plot was continued in comic book form.

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## Keltest

As far as the Zygerrians all being slavers, i think its important to understand that aside from humans, almost no species have any significant planetary colonies outside of their home systems. Theyll have their planet of origin and probably any other habitable planets within the same star system, and anything outside of that will either be a minor colony or a heavily mixed-species world. So while its likely that not literally every Zygerrian is a slaver, if their planet's economy was/is based around the slave trade, then a vast majority of them are going to be involved with maintaining that in some way, either as literal slave vendors or as somebody who employs slaves. You dont have an electrician, you have somebody who manages slaves to do that stuff, etc...

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## hamishspence

> And I see the first episode of season 6 is called "The Lost Misisons Episode 1 the Unknown". The Lost missions were the rough cut-work in progress of the planned future episodes, yes? Did they remake these, eventually when the show got uncancelled? I ask because I think some of the Maul plot was continued in comic book form.


Season 7's first few episodes - the Bad Batch ones, were the rough cut ones that got remade.

Season 6's completed episodes were all aired back in 2014, whereas Season 7's all aired in 2020. The first 4 season 7 episodes were the Bad Batch ones, which were first seen, for free, on the SW.com site. The remaining ones were "all-new" in the sense that they'd never been seen before.

Some episodes that _would_ have been part of season 6, had the cancellation not been announced, were in _very_ rough form (previews of a few short sequences from them, were seen at a convention) - and were then done as a novel instead - the _Dark Disciple_ novel.

Similarly, the Son of Dathomir comic book is based on season 6 scripts.


In addition, the Utapau 4 part arc seen on the SW.com site (in unfinished form but with all the voice acting done) has not been completed_ or_ aired as part of a season.




> from what we saw in TPM, as slaves, the skywalkers lived in their own somewhat-spacious home, had enough food (including fruits on a desert planet!) and he ahd enough free time to work on a droid and a podracer module in parallel. watto didn't appear to be abusive either. I agree that slavery sucks, but I don't think little Ani lacked any liberty that your average ten year old would have. hell, he might have had _less_ freedom at the Temple. And I don't see Shmi burdening him with how bad their situation actually was.


Referring back to TPM, podracing is deadly dangerous, and Anakin and Shmi both know that. Yes, Anakin _enjoys_ it, but he's also conscious just how abusive "being made to Podrace" actually is. He's also the one who tells Qui-Gon and Padme that, if he runs away from Watto, the implant in him will_ blow him up._ That's a pretty bad situation.

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## Fyraltari

> As far as the Zygerrians all being slavers, i think its important to understand that aside from humans, almost no species have any significant planetary colonies outside of their home systems. Theyll have their planet of origin and probably any other habitable planets within the same star system, and anything outside of that will either be a minor colony or a heavily mixed-species world. So while its likely that not literally every Zygerrian is a slaver, if their planet's economy was/is based around the slave trade, then a vast majority of them are going to be involved with maintaining that in some way, either as literal slave vendors or as somebody who employs slaves. You dont have an electrician, you have somebody who manages slaves to do that stuff, etc...


Uh no. Danar makes a clear distinction between the zygerrian empire and its customers. Also it's entirely possible for a society to be dependent on slavery economically without most of its population even seeing a slave as shown by the XVIIItj century (I don't think it would be wise to develop further).

Also the zygerrian empire was dismantled "long ago", their economy has to have transistionned at least partially.

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## Keltest

> Uh no. Danar makes a clear distinction between the zygerrian empire and its customers. Also it's entirely possible for a society to be dependent on slavery economically without most of its population even seeing a slave as shown by the XVIIItj century (I don't think it would be wise to develop further).
> 
> Also the zygerrian empire was dismantled "long ago", their economy has to have transistionned at least partially.


Im going to mildly spoil next episode and say that while it is entirely possible a culture could have developed that way, theirs did not. They are still dependent on slavery as an institution across their planet. Its still their economy. Even if they dont have an empire anymore, there are still plenty of groups (off hand, the Hutts) that do practice slavery and allow it, and theyre obviously not part of the Republic.

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## pendell

> Uh no. Danar makes a clear distinction between the zygerrian empire and its customers. Also it's entirely possible for a society to be dependent on slavery economically without most of its population even seeing a slave as shown by the XVIIItj century (I don't think it would be wise to develop further).
> 
> Also the zygerrian empire was dismantled "long ago", their economy has to have transistionned at least partially.


All that may mean is that they no longer have an _empire_, but the social system on the home world remains unchanged.   That happened to Sparta;  when the Spartan Hegemony disappeared, Sparta itself remained unchanged. Same with Athens. The Athenian Empire collapsed, but the city itself was a democracy again with a generation, Spartan installation of an aristocracy notwithstanding.  

I could point to certain notable attempts in the past decade to fundamentally transform a culture using external pressure, but I'd run afoul of forum rules.  Let me content myself by saying this: If change is not rooted in the host culture, it doesn't last. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Fyraltari

> Season 7's first few episodes - the Bad Batch ones, were the rough cut ones that got remade.
> 
> Season 6's completed episodes were all aired back in 2014, whereas Season 7's all aired in 2020. The first 4 season 7 episodes were the Bad Batch ones, which were first seen, for free, on the SW.com site. The remaining ones were "all-new" in the sense that they'd never been seen before.
> 
> Some episodes that _would_ have been part of season 6, had the cancellation not been announced, were in _very_ rough form (previews of a few short sequences from them, were seen at a convention) - and were then done as a novel instead - the _Dark Disciple_ novel.
> 
> Similarly, the Son of Dathomir comic book is based on season 6 scripts.
> 
> 
> In addition, the Utapau 4 part arc seen on the SW.com site (in unfinished form but with all the voice acting done) has not been completed_ or_ aired as part of a season.


So, if I understand you correctly, when the cancellation was announced, they released what few episodes of season 6 they had ready, and had some of the rest made into the novel and comic book instead. In addition they realeased rough cuts of the first season 7 episodes. Then they remade said episodes and went on with season 7 without finishing season 6? So are those comics/novel required reading for season 7? And what are "the lost missions"?





> Referring back to TPM, podracing is deadly dangerous, and Anakin and Shmi both know that.


More than what the average Padawan, goes through?  :Small Tongue: 



> Yes, Anakin _enjoys_ it, but he's also conscious just how abusive "being made to Podrace" actually is. He's also the one who tells Qui-Gon and Padme that, if he runs away from Watto, the implant in him will_ blow him up._ That's a pretty bad situation.


Fair.

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## McNum

> So, if I understand you correctly, when the cancellation was announced, they released what few episodes of season 6 they had ready, and had some of the rest made into the novel and comic book instead. In addition they realeased rough cuts of the first season 7 episodes. Then they remade said episodes and went on with season 7 without finishing season 6? So are those comics/novel required reading for season 7? And what are "the lost missions"?


The truncated Season 6 is The Lost Missions, if I remember right. Season 7 is another half-season, dubbed The Final Season on Disney+.

So you've technically got half of Season 4, a full Season 5, and the two half Seasons 6 and 7 to go. Also without saying which, I can count the remaining bad episodes on one hand. Actually the number is four.

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## Mechalich

> More than what the average Padawan, goes through?


While life as a Padawan is pretty darn dangerous (though Anakin and Ahsoka are massive outliers in terms of 'total violence encountered'), it's important to remember that Padawan is the second stage of Jedi training. Jedi begin training as Initiates starting from basically the moment they can walk (or perhaps even before, as in the case of Grogu), and spend roughly a decade training as Jedi, including in lightsaber combat arts, prior to taking the tests, known as the Initiate Trials, that they must pass to even be considered as Padawans. Many, perhaps even the majority, of Initiates do not become Padawans, and are either transferred to the Service Corps or mustered out of the Order entirely. 

One of the major season five arcs features the youngling development process in some detail.

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## hamishspence

> So, if I understand you correctly, when the cancellation was announced, they released what few episodes of season 6 they had ready, and had some of the rest made into the novel and comic book instead. In addition they realeased rough cuts of the first season 7 episodes. Then they remade said episodes and went on with season 7 without finishing season 6?


Yup.




> So are those comics/novel required reading for season 7?


Not_ required,_ but certainly _of interest._ Especially if you're a fan of Ventress (book) or Maul and Mother Talzin of the Witches of Dathomir (comic).

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## Grim Portent

> Also insert standard complaint about slavery making no sense when robotics is that common.


On this specific note, I'll contribute that there are a few reasons to keep slaves over droids in the SW universe.

1) Most of the population really don't like droids. Largely irrational distrust, but such is the nature of people. They also don't like clones, largely due to irresponsible and cheap clones being mentally unstable.

2) Being a massive *******. Jabba for example didn't need slaves, he just liked owning them. The feeling of power and superiority felt from having other sentients not just as servants, but as property to be used and discarded at whim.

3) Expense. A good droid isn't cheap, but a slave can be under the right circumstances. Simple droids like B1s are stupid cheap, but also just plain stupid. If you can get one slave for the cost of even five B1 equivalent droids (10,000 credits roughly) you'd generally be better off with the slave. You also don't need to be a mechanic, or pay a mechanic, to keep a slave in good condition like you do with a droid.

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## pendell

> On this specific note, I'll contribute that there are a few reasons to keep slaves over droids in the SW universe.
> 
> 1) Most of the population really don't like droids. Largely irrational distrust, but such is the nature of people. They also don't like clones, largely due to irresponsible and cheap clones being mentally unstable.
> 
> 2) Being a massive *******. Jabba for example didn't need slaves, he just liked owning them. The feeling of power and superiority felt from having other sentients not just as servants, but as property to be used and discarded at whim.
> 
> 3) Expense. A good droid isn't cheap, but a slave can be under the right circumstances. Simple droids like B1s are stupid cheap, but also just plain stupid. If you can get one slave for the cost of even five B1 equivalent droids (10,000 credits roughly) you'd generally be better off with the slave. You also don't need to be a mechanic, or pay a mechanic, to keep a slave in good condition like you do with a droid.


No, but you do have to pay a doctor, and medical care etc. can run the cost of human help, even unpaid human help, well above the cost of robots. That's why automation is so popular in the real world. 

There's also the fact that, as a rule, intelligent beings don't take well to slavery.  At one extreme you have armed revolts which culminate in the massacre of the slaveowners.   Less extreme but more common is passive resistance, malicious obedience (Monkey's paw-style doing what you're told in the most stupid way possible to screw with the owner), slow-walking work, bare minimum productivity.  There's a reason why, in the old stories, slaves often have overseers with whips.  Because people don't give their best effort when they're being worked ten hours a day for someone else's benefit. They'll put in the bare minimum they can get away with, slack off at the first opportunity, find excuses to make things harder rather than resolving problems.  

If  you read the literature, there's a whole grab-bag of psychological tricks used to keep slaves "in their place" and prevent them from either thinking they're free people or acting like it. And the work it takes to instill a slave mentality in people also stifles their initiative, destroys their creativity, means they no longer have the capability to give all that free humans are capable of, when they believe in what they're doing.  

All of which is to say that slave labor is a truly terrible investment compared to automation (which doesn't care about things like morale) or the work of free beings fairly compensated.    If Star Wars societies have slaves, it's because they haven't advanced in some ways beyond what was possible even in our nineteenth century. 

But then, wasn't it Mechalich who pointed out that Star Wars, from a social science perspective, exists in about 1830 our time? 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Mechalich

> All of which is to say that slave labor is a truly terrible investment compared to automation (which doesn't care about things like morale) or the work of free beings fairly compensated.    If Star Wars societies have slaves, it's because they haven't advanced in some ways beyond what was possible even in our nineteenth century. 
> 
> But then, wasn't it Mechalich who pointed out that Star Wars, from a social science perspective, exists in about 1830 our time?


Yeah...

You can actually run the economics of droids based on material in the various RPG books and they are stunningly cheap. An ASP - a basic labor droid capable of handling pretty much any form of unskilled labor has 99% uptime - it only needs to shutdown for recharge and basic maintenance one hour out of every one hundred under normal conditions (admittedly, a place like Tatooine probably mandates more maintenance - Anakin's little rant about sand applies quite well to droids). Chattel slavery for _labor_ makes no sense in Star Wars from an economic perspective even considering the numbers presented in-universe.

Now, chattel slavery isn't the only kind of slavery. Sex slavery is an area resistance to market penetration by droids (this was actually specifically called out in legends at points) and so keeping slaves for that purpose remains viable. Debt slavery, of the 'owe my soul to the company store' variety, is also economically viable, since it's a system to capture 100% of the economic output of laborers, including skilled laborers, and is also very much in keeping with the overall social mores presented in Star Wars. 

Having said all that, it's important to consider the issue of species psychology. The slaver villains of the present arc are Zygerrians, and the most prevalent slavers in the Star Wars galaxy are the Hutts. Slavery, in Star Wars, is practiced almost entirely by non-humans (or Sith, but that's a somewhat different can of worms). Non-humans are not necessarily functioning under the same economic incentives as humans. The Hutts and Zygerrians keep slaves as a means of enforcing dominance and they don't really care about the economic inefficiencies. Though evidence suggests the Hutts were quite happy to utilize droids primarily and slaves were mostly a luxury status symbol outside of the sex trade (the sex trade was economically significant in its own right and responsible for plenty of slaves, especially female Twi'leks). This means that ultimately slavery in Star Wars is primarily a cultural issue and is resistant to economic policies.

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## hamishspence

> The slaver villains of the present arc are Zygerrians, and the most prevalent slavers in the Star Wars galaxy are the Hutts. Slavery, in Star Wars, is practiced almost entirely by non-humans (or Sith, but that's a somewhat different can of worms). Non-humans are not necessarily functioning under the same economic incentives as humans.


One of the first big mentions of it in Legends was in the Thrawn Trilogy, with Pellaeon having participated in an Imperial slaving raid on Kashyyyk. So in this case, slavery is being practiced by the humans of the Galactic Empire. Tarkin also owned Ackbar as a slave.

That might be a subset of "The Sith like slavery" since Palpatine, ruler of the Empire, is a Sith. 

Possibly a case of -

"the Dark Side is empowered by negative emotion - slavery promotes negative emotion - the cruelty of the slavers and the suffering of the slaves - so whenever they're in power, the Sith encourage their minions to get involved with slavery".

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## Mechalich

> One of the first big mentions of it in Legends was in the Thrawn Trilogy, with Pellaeon having participated in an Imperial slaving raid on Kashyyyk. So in this case, slavery is being practiced by the humans of the Galactic Empire. Tarkin also owned Ackbar as a slave.


This sort of thing depends heavily on how slavery is defined, and is not helped by rather loose language usage by various EU authors. Specifically, it depends on whether or not a difference is specified between an enslaved person and a forced laborer. 

A very strict definition of slavery refers only to persons who have been reduced in status to property, and may be treated as livestock, as in Chattel Slavery. The Empire does not appear to have practiced chattel slavery to any significant degree (though it turned a blind eye to the practice among the Hutts and other groups). However, the Empire employed forced labor more or less constantly. Anyone imprisoned for a crime, captured in a conflict, or otherwise condemned by the state could, and often was, made to labor on Imperial projects at gunpoint (many, such as the Wookiees laboring on the Death Star, were summarily executed when those projects were completed). Such people are enslaved, but they aren't property, or at least, they are not the property of private citizens.

Obviously, this is cold comfort as a practical matter, and in fact the lives of forced laborers under a totalitarian regime are potentially at greater risk than those of chattel slaves because forced laborers in such circumstances are not intended to be part of a sustainable economic system - they are an exploitable resource to be used up. As situation like Ackbar's enslavement also indicates how the lines between state resources and personal resources blur for high-ranking officials in a corrupt totalitarian system. Ackbar wasn't really 'Tarkin's' slave, he was a prisoner of the Empire but Tarkin found it somehow satisfying to force a Mon Calamari war hero to serve as his driver and used his authority to have Ackbar placed under his direct supervision.

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## hamishspence

The Empire also _reclassified_ many sapient races (including Wookiees) as nonsapient - resulting in their becoming, literally, livestock, to the Imperials. 



That fits the "chattel slavery" bit.

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## Dargaron

The Wookiee slave trade at least long predated the Empire: unfortunately, my _Essential Guide to X_ and _New Essential Guide to X_ books got destroyed in a flood, but IIRC, the reptilian Trandoshans were the ones who started it, and basically "sold" the whole wookiee slaving enterprise to the Empire in exchange for favored status for their species. In _Republic Commando_, you infiltrate a Trandoshan slaver camp on Kashyykk _during_ the Clone Wars (naturally), while KOTOR apparently backdates wookiee slavery to that timeframe, since one of the antagonists of that game is a wookiee ruler who is selling inconvenient wookiees to off-worlders (I want to say it's to the Zerka corporation?)

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## hamishspence

> This sort of thing depends heavily on how slavery is defined, and is not helped by rather loose language usage by various EU authors. Specifically, it depends on whether or not a difference is specified between an enslaved person and a forced laborer. 
> 
> A very strict definition of slavery refers only to persons who have been reduced in status to property, and may be treated as livestock, as in Chattel Slavery. The Empire does not appear to have practiced chattel slavery to any significant degree (though it turned a blind eye to the practice among the Hutts and other groups). However, the Empire employed forced labor more or less constantly. Anyone imprisoned for a crime, captured in a conflict, or otherwise condemned by the state could, and often was, made to labor on Imperial projects at gunpoint (many, such as the Wookiees laboring on the Death Star, were summarily executed when those projects were completed). Such people are enslaved, but they aren't property, or at least, they are not the property of private citizens.


In SW, a forced labourer of this kind could be described as having been "_enslaved as_ punishment". Being  "able to be the property of a private citizen", is not a _requirement_, to be a slave.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Slavery/Legends




> Unfortunately, after the rise of the Empire, slavery was once again given a degree of legitimacy with the issuance of Imperial Decree A-SL-4557.607.232. Citizens could now be enslaved as punishment for "crimes against the civil order".[16] Non-Humans and Human critics of the New Order alike were rounded up and enslaved en-masse for work on such projects as the Death Star.
> 
>  In addition, early into the Empire's formation, the 501st Legion had been ordered by Emperor Palpatine to sell Nosaurian women and children into a slave market at Orvax IV. The Empire's enforcer, Darth Vader, learned of this during a debriefing for the Cleansing of New Plympto when Commander Vill let slip about the Emperor's order. Vader grew despondent enough at the revelation as a result that he abruptly ended his presence at the debriefing and could not fall asleep that night, due to remembering his own time as a slave. He later revealed what he had learned to the Emperor, and ultimately let it continue despite his misgivings after the Emperor told him the Imperial way was "different."[17] 
> 
> Agorffi,[18] Wookiees, Yuzzem, and Talz were exploited for their strength while the Mon Calamari and the Givin were used for their famous ship-building skills. Also the Quarren, Chromans, Ugnaughts and Mustafarians were enslaved for their mining skills, the Gamorreans and Gungans were enslaved for military operations and the Kaminoans and Kallidahins for their cloning skills. Meanwhile, the Empire frequently ignored the trade of Twi'lek girls, who were enslaved for their beauty.[19] Officially, however, regarding alien species such as Wookiees, those deemed to be non-sentient were not considered enslaved, but "domesticated."[20]

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## Kornaki

> All of which is to say that slave labor is a truly terrible investment compared to automation (which doesn't care about things like morale) or the work of free beings fairly compensated.    If Star Wars societies have slaves, it's because they haven't advanced in some ways beyond what was possible even in our nineteenth century. 
> 
> But then, wasn't it Mechalich who pointed out that Star Wars, from a social science perspective, exists in about 1830 our time? 
> 
> Respectfully, 
> 
> Brian P.


Slavery still exists in our modern world, just not (probably given your post) in the country you live in.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slav...e_21st_century

As technology advances, slavery gets pushed more and more to the edges of the economy.  This doesn't seem that inconsistent with the star wars universe, where the edge of the economy is literally the edge of the Galaxy.

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## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 12: Slaves of the Republic*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ahsoka and Rex travel to Zygerria inside Danar's ship to track down the abducted togrutas. Although the boys already wear their disguises (zygerrian armour), Ahsoka is still in her normal get-up so it'll be more surprising later. There are like six other ships going to the planet which is apparently a lot since they comment on it. Anakin mentions a spy on the inside (which isn't mentioned at any other time in the episode) who gave them intelligence on the queen. Rex and Kenobi are to find the missing colonist while Anakin and Ahsoka, posing as master and slave, distract the queen. Skywalker intends to distract her with his natural charm. I'd make a comment but he has a perfect record of seducing queens so far. Somehow. Ahsoka isn't exactly thrilled at playing the part of the slave, and I can't blame her.

Ahsoka (who is now wearing big concealing robes)) wonders how a civilisation this advanced could still be practicing slavery. Anakin replies that it makes them feel powerful at the expanse of others. Sure, let's go with that. The marketplace is a bit of a who's who of the show's evil races. There are neimodians, muuns, those snake-people some of whom were smugglers on Mandalore and I think I spotted a weeqay, later there's a Hut. Almsot surprised I didn't see any quarren. Also to keep the fanservice up, there's a kowakian lizard-monkey knife fight and a twi'lek slave in a metal bikini just like Leia's. Anakin and Ahsoka come across a zygerrian yelling at a twi'lek slave who has fallen to the ground to get up. The slave says his bounds are too heavy which is frankly hilarious, *since he's not wearign any*! The owner tries to whip him but Ahsoka intervenes. Anakin steps up and asks she be forgiven since "she's freshly caught". This somehow works and the guy starts wondering how come Anakin wears zygerrian armour while clearly not being zygerrian. Anakin says he's here for an audience with the queen. He hasn't got an appointment, so the zygerrian is reluctant to introduce him, but he says he brings news of a certain Bruno Denturi and a nearby droid immediately says he has to be escorted to the palace to see the queen.

Turns out the queen is conventionally attractive and doesn't even have the bony protrusion the male zygerrians have on their lower jaws. Color me shooked. The zygerrian introduces Anakin as "Lars Quell". Turns out the queen hates Denturi with a passion but that's not an issue since the "news" Skywalker brings is that he's killed him. Ahsoka "a slave from his palace" is there as proof. Anakin starts shamelessly flattering the queen who starts flirting back while  looking over Ahsoka (who is out of her big robes showing a form-fitting dress underneath) and calling her a "fine stock" and beautiful. She's like thirteen, right? Yuck. Ahsoka completely fails at not acting assertive, though. So the queen says she'll have to be "processed". Then Anakin and the queen go for a walk.

Meanwhile, in an other part of the city, Rex and Kenobi have found the leader of the Togruta in a pretty big cell. Obi-Wan goes to talk to him but he's too frightened and in poor health to talk. They stea some kind of huge lizard-thing that serves as a mount that can somewhat fly thanks to falps of skin between its limb, flying suqirrel-style. Nice design, it's a bit more creative than the usual dragons. Unfortunately they are sotted by the guards who shoot Obi-wan down. He falls to the ground taking the governor with him while rEx escapes alone.

Meanwhile, on the palace balcony, the queen is justifying slavery with the usual social darwinist garbage (is that her only topic of conversation?) and offerign "Lars" a job. She's interrupted by her twi'lek waitress who jumps at her with a knife. Anakin saves the queen, who decides the twi'lek will need more "processing". Rather than go "back there" the twi'lek jumps over the side to her death. The queen decides to buy Ahsoka as a replacement and Skywalker gives here as a gift. This prompts the queen to invite him as a guest of honour next to her at the upcoming slave auction.

Meanwhile, Obi-wan is getting whipped through his shirt. However, the zygerrian that introduced Anakin recognizes him. He was with Dooku on the ither side of the holocall with Danar that Kenobi interrupted and indentifies him as a Jedi. Cut to the auction, the governor is shoved into an area as a representative of "no less than 50 000 beings!" Okay, but couldn't you find one more young and fit to serve as advertisment? He looks like he'll die if someone sneezes too loudly. Then again, apparently eh main selling point is that their lack of combat training means no rebellion. Anakin starts fishing for the location of the rest of his people with all the subtlety of an armoured tank in a china shop, but he's interrupted by the zygerrian officer(?) who tells the queen about Obi-Wan. The queen has Kenobi brought to the arena and says the Jedi are weak for they have abandoned their ideals to serve a corrupt Senate and became slaves to the Republic.
*Spoiler: My reaction*
Show




Then she hands Anakin a whip and tells him to "teach the Jedi his place." Anakin gets to Kenobi and the queen insists he whips Kenobi to prove to her he's a slaver. You know everyone can hear you, right? If he doesn't, he'll be executed too. Anakin nods to Ahsoka, Rex (who is in the audience) and R2 who is in the queen's lodge. And R2 throws everybody's lightsabers at them, RotJ-style. Fighting ensues. Kenobi and Skywalker take out the guards in the arena while Ahsoka wipes out the queen's bodyguards. Rex takes a couple of soldiers out but gets thrown in the arena. Ahsoka holds the queen at... err... lightsaber-point? and calls her slave empire finished. Again. The queen pushes a button on her throne and the collar that she was apparently wearing all along shocks the padawn into unconsciousness. An entire troop of fresh guards, armed with whips gets into the arena. Since their whips are electrified they manage to take Kenobi out relatively quickly but it takes no less than six whips together to knock Anakin out. The queen is rather impressed.

Anakin awakes alone with the queen in her bedchamber. She says that half the kingdom as well as Dooku wants him dead. He strangles her (careful Ani, this is turning into a habit) but she says that his friends will die if he keeps misbehaving. Then she calls him a curious Jedi when he lets her go. Were you expecting him to kill you? She calls him her servant and even hands him his lightsaber to serve as her bodyguard. Meanwhile Ahsoka is inside a (surprisingly roomy) cage hanging off the palace. The zygerrian officer tells her the queen will give her to him once the other Jedi is tamed and she Force-shoves off the ledge. He catches himself and climbs back on the roof and then gives her a couple shocks. Meanwhile meanwhile, Rex and Kenobi are taken to another planet to the prison where the colonists from Kyros are held. The warden is a blue-furred zygerrian with two fewer bone-protusions than the others. I guess he's from an ethnic minority? The warden welcomes Kenobi and immediately says that the Jedi are famous for their resolve, but strength of will is his enemy. And he has eight colonists thrown to their death in an abyss. I would say that even from a purely profit-based perspective, this is wasteful, but when you look at the mortality rates of real-world slavery... Anyway the point is that should Obi-Wan defy him, he won't be the one to pay for it.

Meanwhile, the queen and Anakin are flying through the air. She guesses he was once a slave from his "selfless commitment." She says that commitment at the cost of oneself is slavery but t=if he stood willingly besides her, there's nothing they couldn't accomplish. I think I can hear Sidious laughing half a galaxy away. She's really touchy-feely for the entire conversation. They arrive to what I guess is her secondary residence and she offers to free his friends if he promises to stay and serve her. She thinks a Jedi as noble as him gave his word, he might keep it. he doesn't trust her, but she points out she's been completely honest with him from the beginning. And she concludes that his friends's future is in his hand, they will only stay salves as long as he lets them be.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Why do I get the feeling this episode/arc has a looooot more fan art than the others? 
The queen is a much better antagonist than Darts, if a bit cliché (I swear if she changes her evil ways because of Anakin's manly wiles...).

So, did they kill that Denturi fellow in preparation for this mission or what? Also why was Skywalker wearing zygerrian armour if the plan was for him to introduce himself as a foreigner anyway? Also, Dooku is going to be furious when he hears the queen has Anakin and Obi-Wan in her power but is actively choosing _not_ to kill them because she is on a power trip.

While I do look forward to see how they get out of this one, I hope the warden dude won't just be a retread of the guy from the Citadel.


Next up: *Escape from Kadavo*.

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## Sapphire Guard

Re slavery, droids are decent at manual labour, it depends on what you use them for. Human pilots and soldiers appear to outperform droid armies on the whole, unless they are very high end. Anakin is a pilot and low grade mechanic at 9, he's pretty valuable. Shmi likely also has some relevant skill.

We don't really see slavery used as large scale manual labour very often. Per that Kaminoan in AOTC (admittedly while talking up his merch, creative thinking is the big advantage)

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## Mechalich

> Re slavery, droids are decent at manual labour, it depends on what you use them for. Human pilots and soldiers appear to outperform droid armies on the whole, unless they are very high end. Anakin is a pilot and low grade mechanic at 9, he's pretty valuable. Shmi likely also has some relevant skill.
> 
> We don't really see slavery used as large scale manual labour very often. Per that Kaminoan in AOTC (admittedly while talking up his merch, creative thinking is the big advantage)


The general theory of Star Wars droid functionality is that droids struggle to adapt to new conditions, especially when changing rapidly - battlefields just happen to fit those criteria perfectly in a nice bit of retroactive reasoning. Advanced droids can, and are, used for extremely high-skill tasks and are sometimes better than even the best organic comparatives due to the physical limitations of biology. A medical droid, for example, is better at microsurgery than any organic doctor, because they and operate directly at the micron scale. However it's very difficult for them to learn new medical techniques. The scene in the Mandalorian, where IG-11 is painstakingly retrained to perform very simple domestic tasks, is a good example of this.

It was also submitted that if you do go and train droids to learn new ways of doing things the resulting programming paths will evolve in untested and unpredictable ways and the results may be rather dangerous. IG-11 is again a good example, because training an assassin droid to serve as a caregiver results in producing the bodyguard of doom. That particular example worked out well, but sometimes letting a droid evolve results in a xenocidal monster like IG-88 that wants to exterminate all organic life. So this sort of thing is discouraged and droids are regularly scheduled for memory wipes as part of ordinary maintenance (this also prevents them from developing independent consciousness, which nicely elides some nasty issues).

For the above reasons organic sapients in Star Wars are generally somewhat leery of droids supervising other droids across complex multi-level hierarchies. 'Droid supervisor/mechanic' is quite likely to be the most common job in the Star Wars universe (certainly most of the work Luke was actually doing on his Uncle's moisture farm involved supervising droids).

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## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 13: Escape from Kadavo*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

we open in Kenobi's prison, that doubles as a work camp. The warden taunts him for a bit and we are shown that the slaves spend all day shoveling something coal-like, carrying it in pushcarts to and from furnaces and manually keeping some huge gears moving. Yup, really require slaves to get keep this factory running. Automation wouldn't help at all... I kid, the place's real purpose is to break the new slaves' spirit as Obi-Wan points out. But still. One guard start whipping Kenobi for talking when speech is forbidden. Then he whips another slave for Kenobi's infraction. When the Jedi protests he gets electrocuted and the guard start whipping the togruta more and more telling Obi-Wan he'll kill him if the Jedi doesn't beg. Which he does, calling him master. When the guards leave the togruta tell Kenobi to stay away from him and that "Jedi only make things worse." Yeah, sure.

Meanwhile, Dooku is approaching Zygerra in his personal craft while phoning Sidious (somebody take his flyer's licence away!). The Dark Lord of the Sith explains that previous Sith Empires have rune on the back of slaves,and theirs will require millions (bit of a lowball number considering the size of the galaxy, but okay). As a result he doesn't tolerate any defiance on the part of the queen. So he orders Dooku to kill her if she doesn't comply. But the zygerrans are part of the CIS that the Sith intend to ultimately destroy, so I guess the Sith plans to pardon them after the war and have them integrated into the Empire? Did that happen? Or is Sidious lying to Tyrannus to make his own post-war "integration" into the Empire seem more likely?

In the palace the queen asks Skywalker if he's come to a decision about her offer of freeing the others in exchange for his sworn loyalty. He says it's not an easy decision? Isn't it? You can lie, I don't think anybody would hold it against you. She mocks him for being "selfish". They are interrupted by the zygerran officer who tells her Dooku is there. Anakin calls the Count the queen's master, which she angrily denies. She sends Anakin away and takes his lightsaber, leaving him in the custody of two guards. And then comes R2 who they just allowed to roam freely in the palace? without a restraining bolt or anything! *After* he launched their lightsabers at the Jedi! Anakin uses the diversion to hide by climbing over the edge of the balcony they are on. One guard leaves to try to find him and he climbs back on and throws the second one to the city below. Dude falls fifty, maybe a hundred meters and survive because he landed on some vegetables. What are these guys made out of? Well, I guess the "Anakin has to choose between his dignity and his friends' safety plot is over. Time to rescue Ahsoka!

The queen receives Dooku in her throne room. She's surprised he's come uninvited, but he says he _was_ invited. By her advisor, who is concerned about her attachment to Skywalker. She says he is a living symbol of their power to enslave even Jedi. She explains that at that very moment in the Kadavo system, Kenobi is realizing that his attempts to help others will only harm them and that his spirit will gradually break before his powerlessness. As she talks we get a nice montage (although it's only two scenes) of Obi-Wan's life in the prison. and if these two can be made to serve... She tells Dooku to picture an army of Jedi in his service and how invincible, they will be. But Dooku isn't planning on enslaving th eJedi but to exterminate them. So he orders her to summon Skywalker for execution.

Meanwhile, Anakin found Ahsoka's cage and uses the force to lift her back on solid ground before ripping the door out. Why couldn't _she_ do that? Both of them senses Dooku is there but they don't know where Obi-wan was taken (guess Rex doesn't matter) so Anakin will try to get the queen to tell him while Ahsoka gets the ship ready to leave. Back in the throne room, the queen refuses to be ordered around. The Count simply says that if _she_ won't do his bidding, then her Prime Minister, Atai (hey, he _does_ have a name) will. She gets a whip out calling him a traitor and intending to make the both of them pay. Dooku simply Force-chokes her. That's when Anakin comes in. Dooku threatens the queen's life but Skywalker doesn't care. They start dueling. Anakin is forced to fight with the queen's whip, since he doesn't have his saber, so Dooku easily dominates him (especially once he breaks the Sith Lighting out). Guards come in and Dooku accuses skywalker of killing the queen. Anakin signals Ahsoka to get going via commlink and flees the scene with the queen in his arms. He gets to to the ship and they take off. The queen hands Anakin his lightsaber, tells him where Kenobi his and dies telling him he was right: she is a slave. Can people actually die of strangulation if they're not already dead when the strangling stops? Because that seems to happen a fair bit in this universe. Also, my reaction the queen's death: Oh no, not the *******.

On Kadavo, Rex and Kenobi are brought to the warden, and holo-Dooku who just wanted to say a proper farewell before the warden, Keeper Argos (meh, needs more eyes) executes him. At that same moment, Anakin and Ahoska, still in Danar's ship, but having changed clothes, land on the prison. Immediately informed, the Keeper has nearby turrets blow the ship to bits. Anakin just starts cutting through the door. Dooku tell Obi-wan to tell Anakin to surrender or they'll start executing the slaves. Obi-wan does so through the door's intercom. But Anakin's done negotiating with slavers. Kenobi tells him he can't win that fight alone, but he's not: cut to a Republic destroyer leaving hyperspace and launching a flight of fighters lead by Plo Koon.

Wait, Plo's squadron is called "wolfpack"? Why does he gets a cool name when everybody else is "blue-green squadron" or something? Obi-Wan ses the force to get him and rEx out of their electrified collars and they start fighting inside the prison's headquarters. Also, the turrets are ray-shielded so the Republic fighters can't destroy them. Hmm, you know people really ought to ray-shield more stuff in this universe. Anakin and Ahsoka gets inside the facility and start fighting guards. Wait, how did Tano get her lightsabers back? The prison sends a couple fighters of their own, Plo outmaneuvers them by cutting his engines so they overtake him and he shoots them down. That should work in space but not in the atmoshpere where this fight is taking place. In the headquarters, KEnobi and Rex are overpowering the guards but they're too busy to stop Argos for making good on his threat: he has the walls of the cells electrified and the floor retract sot he slaves will fall to their deaths. And he breaks the controls for good measure.

They can't rescue the slaves until the cannon are destroyed, so Anakin says he'll do it while the cruiser gets to the prison  and while Ahsoka helps her people gain some time. She find them, but since the floor is retracting away from the door there's nothing she can do to help. (Oh, no if only somebody with the ability to lift people through the air were there. Maybe they could carry the prisoners to safe ground.) Still, they're glad a Jedi is there. Skywalker gets back to the landing area and jumps ontop of a tower. Turns out they're manned (really against automation these zygerrians, heh?) so he takes it over to destroy the other towers. Apparently they're ammo has enough of a punch to go through ray-shields for some reason. Ahsoka says they"re no-way to get the slaves to the landing area but they can rescue them by bringing the cruiser underneath the facility. The cruiser's admiral agrees and sends some of his men topside with jetpacks (they fly now!) and cable-guns. Kenobi beats the last guards and gets his lightsaber back from Argos (why did _he_ have it?) Argos says he knows a Jedi won't kill an unarmed man, so Rex throws a guard's spear through his chest "I'm no Jedi." What the ****, Rex? You could have taken him prisoner! He's a high-ranking officer, he probably had lots of intel about Zygerria you could have used! (Also the spear goes through his floating chair, but the hole it makes is too small for the head of the spear.)

The cruiser gets under the facility while Anakin, Obi-wan and Rex take off in a gunship. The togruta come down on the cruiser (some trip and need to get caught) but nobody's harmed. One clone says they have to go because the facility is breaking up (Why? Nobody shot it or anything). Then they leave and blow the place up. Aboard the cruiser, the togruta governor thanks the Republicans for saving them, but Anakin says it was Ahsoka's creativity that did it (what the creativity of "bring the ship under the facility? Really?) The togruta asks for a word in private with her. He's worried it'll take them a long time to recover. She hopes living through it will have made them stronger and the governor decides that Kyros should join the Republic. End of the episode


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

I didn't expect them to animate 500 000 charcaters, but could they not have made a better effort of making it seems like there were more prisoners than the twenty-or-so odd we saw with Ahsoka? Or are the 
attrition rate that bad in Kadavo?

Rex's entire reason for being here these last two episodes was apparently so that Kenobi wouldn't kill Argos himself. Why was that necessary.

The show seemed to think I'd be more sympathetic to the queen than I was. Also, I get what they were going for with the "she's a slave to" angle, but I don't really like the equation of "being literally worked to death" and "boss wouldn't let her keep her boytoy for perfectly valid reasons". Couldn't they have Dooku make more unreasonnable demands, like insisting a chunk of the zygerrian population be made into slaves as well, to finance the war effort or something?


Next up: *A friend in need*.

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## Jasdoif

> Dude falls fifty, maybe a hundred meters and survive because he landed on some vegetables. What are these guys made out of?


What are those _vegetables_ made out of?




> Meanwhile, Anakin found Ahsoka's cage and uses the force to lift her back on solid ground before ripping the door out. Why couldn't _she_ do that?


I imagined the collar had something to do with it.  Or maybe she was worried that losing her balance and concentration while moving the thing under her feet would be an issue, without any vegetables to soften the fall?




> Can people actually die of strangulation if they're not already dead when the strangling stops?


I suppose it would depends on what (if anything) was broken during the strangling....




> (really against automation these zygerrians, heh?)


Well....I suppose that in a slave-centered economy, the leaders would avoid devaluing their own assets with the introduction of alternatives.




> Aboard the cruiser, the togruta governor thanks the Republicans for saving them, but Anakin says it was Ahsoka's creativity that did it (what the creativity of "bring the ship under the facility? Really?)


She thought _around_ the immediate problem of the floor retracting, instead of fixating on stopping or outpacing it; I'd have no problem calling that creative.

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## Fyraltari

Forgot to put it in my review but: They've finally allowed the Jedi to hack and slash some humanoid-looking people. I'm confused why they're doing it now and didn't in the Umbara arc, did the rules change mid-season?



> What are those _vegetables_ made out of?


What is that foodstand made out of?




> I imagined the collar had something to do with it.  Or maybe she was worried that losing her balance and concentration while moving the thing under her feet would be an issue, without any vegetables to soften the fall?


The second one makes sense, yeah.




> I suppose it would depends on what (if anything) was broken during the strangling....


What like the spine? I guess that makes sense.




> Well....I suppose that in a slave-centered economy, the leaders would avoid devaluing their own assets with the introduction of alternatives.


Well, at least they're not tasking the slaves with using the weapons. That makes them better than some other fictional slavers I could name. 




> She thought _around_ the immediate problem of the floor retracting, instead of fixating on stopping or outpacing it; I'd have no problem calling that creative.


Meh.

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## Mechalich

> What like the spine? I guess that makes sense.


It's more that there's a level 'partially crushed' for the windpipe that is still fatal because it doesn't permit sufficient oxygen to enter the lungs to sustain life. So the victim still suffocates, but because oxygen intake hasn't dropped to zero it takes longer. This can take hours or even days depending on the degree of hypoxia. This is why extremely high mountains have 'death zones' a region above which human life cannot be permanently sustained. Since the Queen was receiving sufficient airflow to speak, however weakly, she probably could have been saved through medical intervention like a pure oxygen breathing supply or being intubated, and hypothetically Anakin could have used the Force to open the windpipe back up, but he never was much of a medic.

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## Fyraltari

I forgot last time, but I think we can fairly say, that Escape from Kadavo is the first time we see a Jedi openly hacking and slashing at human-like characters rather than droids or giant bugs. Kinda weird they didn't do it on Umbara if they could later on the season.

*Season 4, Episode 14*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

so Padmé, finally, *finally*, made some progress in her peace efforts, and the first ever official meeting between delegates of the Republic and the Confederation is happening on Mandalore. The CIS sent two of their senators we saw last season and a blue lady (the one from the Separatist Council in the movies?), the Republicans sent Padmé, Organa and Mon Mothma with Ahsoka too. I realize, she's there because plot, but what an odd choice in-universe. She's just a Padawan-learner, doesn't this make it look like the Jedi Council doesn't think this is worth their time? I would have expected Kenobi, or at least a Master. If I were the Separatists delegates, I'd feel insulted. In any case, the Separatist demands that the Republicans recognize the CIS as a legitimate state. Padmé doesn't answer. It's the sticking point isn't it? Either they are legitimate and the Republic is carrying out an unjust war or they aren't, in which case, they'd be negotiating with criminals, right now.

Before she can work her way out of this, the meeting is interrupted... By Lux Bonteri, the son of Padmé's Separatist senator friend who got murdered last season. Lux's alive! Satine, presiding the meeting, allows him to take the floor even though he apparently wasn't invited (they just let him in, like that?). He accuses dooku of murdering his mother, which prompts the separatists to have him removed from the premises and, the meeting carries on. Ahsoka is worried about his life, so Amidala tells her to do what she can, but be discreet. Commando droids take Lux to the Separatist ship and a hologram of Dooku. "You know what you did, Dooku. - Do I? I did a great many things and choose to remember them by order of importance. The death of your mother seems to have escaped me." Damn, that's so cold even a wampa from Hoth would be shocked! During the conversation, Bonteri switches a device on his wrist on without being noticed (unfortunately, no, it's not recording Dooku confessing to murder). Dooku tells the droids to reunite the young senator with his mother. Hold on, he's a senator!? As in, he was elected and all!? What's with _Star Wars_ and underage politicians?

Ahsoka comes in and destroys the droids bare-handed; They flee the ship and head for the Republican's with commando droids in hot pursuit. They reach it and a whole firefight erupts between the droids and the Senate Guards who were guarding the ship. Real discreet, Ahsoka.
Their ship gets in orbit and Anakin calls her because Padmé just told him the peace negotiations just collapsed. Lux apologizes to the Jedi Master (urgh) for the trouble, but Ahsoka says it was nothing. What the ****, Ahsoka? At least one Senate Guard just got shot, and you've just ruined the culmination of what, two years of peace efforts in a way that puts the Republic and the Jedi Order clearly at fault! No, it's *definitely* something! You just know that Dooku is watching this like: "Well, I had a whole plan in place to derail this, but if my former colleagues insist on doing my job for me, who am I to disoblige them?"

Anyway, Skywalker and Tano decide to bring Bonteri to corsucant, where he'll be safe and see if they can get him an amnesty (my guess is that being a member of the Separatist Senate is an automatic charge of treason? Even though, he wasn't the one who made the call whether to secede or not?). But, when Skywalker hangs up, Lux draws a gun on Ahsoka as he doesn't want to go to Coruscant or join the republic. She easily disarms him and try to convince him to go with her. He doesn't trust the republic to help hims any more than it helped his mother, and says he has a plan, in fact he has already contacted "noble allies" on planet Carlac who share his goal: to kill Dooku. She tells him he's just going to get killed. How did he even planned on escaping the droids without her in the first place? "Like this" he says while putting her to sleep with a taser. Somebody's gotta work on their Jedi reflexes. He apologizes to her, tell R2 Ahsoka was exhausted (this somehow works) and takes over the controls of the ship.

Ahsoka wakes up some times later after they've landed, with no lightsaber. She spots Lux outside and goes to him while the droid looks for the lightsabers. She confronts him but only gets two sentences in when his allies arrive. And i'ts death Watch! Dun, dun, dun! The Mandos, lead by a woman (I've checked the credits: first appearance* of Bo-Katan!) wonder who Ahsoka is. "I'm his... his... bethrothed!" Really. Bo-Katan calls her skinny and slaps her bottom. Well, that's just great writing, right there. R2 (who has th elightsabers) shows up too, and Bo-Katan decides to leave. Ahsoka is absolutely not thrilled to be dealing with terrorists who she's sure will kill them both while Lux insists it's all under control. She tries to stay with the ship, but they won't have it.

The Mandalorians have set up camp in what looks like to be the courtyard of some ruined temples and are passing the time by shooting at various droids, something they find hilarious. While they wait for "the Boss" Lux explains his plan to Ahsoka: his device is a holo-tracker that detected the source of Dooku's communication and therefore his locations so that Death Watch can kill him. Doesn't he live on Serenno? Is his big-ass palace supposed to be secret? Or has he gone into hiding after Ventress's "Jedi" assassination attempt? Ahsoka is... not impressed. She restates that Death Watch is a ganag of jedi-hating murderers who will kill them once they have what they want. And that's when the boss walks in behind her. To shut her up, Lux kisses his "bethrothed". I'm rolling my eyes, right now. The boss, who is Pre Vizla, with a bald hair cut and a brad new scar, has "the woman" seen out so he can talk business.Lux wants confirmation that Vizla intends to kill Dooku. Vizla points to his scar and calls it a parting gift from Dooku, and if Bonteri questions him again, he'll give him his own. Err, last we saw Vizla, Dooku was assuring him they "had" other ways to take over Mandalore after their initial plan failed. What happened? Was there a book covering this or what? Lux gives him the device and Vizla calls for a celebration.

Meanwhile R2 is brought to a tent where the Mandalorians keep the droids when they're not shooting at them and tasked with repairing them so they can make good targets again. All the droids start begging R2 to reassemble them in a rather creepy scene. Bo-Katan takes Ahsoka to a group of local women who were abducted from a local town to 
serve DW as slaves. One warrior comes in and orders them to prepare the feast. At said feast, Lux is seated as aguest  next to Vizla, while Ahsoka acts as a waitress. She calls him stupid. I mean, he's over his head, but the only thing going wrong with his plan so far, is your presence, Ahsoka. The feast is interrupted by the chieftain of the local village. He's angry at them for "taking their women, stealing their food and threatening them" and tells them to leave. Vizla agrees and gives his word to return their people by next sunrise. This prompts Lux, who completely missed the sinister glances Vizla shot to his brothers-in-arms to say the DW are better than Ahsoka says.

By next sunrise, everybody but the droids gets to the village, where the chieftain thanks Vizla for honouring his promise. And then Vizla stabs the chieftain's granddaughter and orders his men to kill everybody. When Lux asks him why, Vizla tells him to "Never, let the weak tell him what to do" and he bids him welcome to death wAtch while waving the Darksaber in front of the burning town hall. Gotta say, that's a cool shot. Ahsoka takes a staff from the ruins and uses it to impale a warrior, before taking another and starts beating the Mandos. However, Pre Vizla has a lightsaber and she has, a stick. She's quickly captured and taken back to camp. They arrive just as R2 is done with the repairs and he sees her prisoner. He asks the droids to prepare a rescue operation. Also, it's either very cloudy or night falls very soon after dawn in this place. Vizla is disappointed in Lux. He asked him to join them in good faith and he brings a Jedi in their camp? When he says he's going to kill Ahsoka, Lux calls him a murderer. Which Pre Vizla find pretty rich coming from someone who asked him for his help in killing a guy. Point Vizla. Lux says he just wants justice. And Vizla retorts that he will give Dooku "justice". Just as will give it to Ahsoka for the Jedi's crimes against Mandalore. R2 barges in spewing smoke and hands Ahsoka her lightsabers. Which she uses to free herself and decapitates four Mandos.

Vizla draws the Darksaber and demands a duel. He dominates the fight and literally kicks her out of the tent... next to R2's new friends who start shooting at the Mandos. Why did they leave guns where the droids could get them? Ahsoka slashes Vizla's jest pack and tells him she didn't miss. He throws it to the ground just before it explodes. which allows her to get on the speeder that Lux commandeered in the mean time. Vizla can't follow because of no jetpack so he sends Bo-Katan and some more Mandos after them. Ahsoka gets rid of them (although she had to fight  Bo-Katan _mano a mano_ to get rid of her (she went under the speeder without getting squished, which contradicts that episode where the "weight" of jetbikes collapsed a bridge)). They get back to their ship and leave.

However when Ahsoka gets to the commands, R2 tells her the escape pod has been activated. She gets to it before it leaves but the door is locked. Lux tells her he can't go with her and she says they could try to change things together. Silly, Ahsoka, Jedi aren't allowed to date, just ask your master. Lux promises her they'll meet again and she asks him to be careful. Then his escape pod ejects. I assume his plan is to fly back to a more inhabited part of the planet, to get a ride there to wherever, banking on the fact that Death Watch won't think he'd retrace his steps? 



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

The whole "bethrothed" thing was pretty cliché. Especially since they telegraphied so much that Ahsoka was lying. Why was that necessary? We know she's lying, it just makes Bo-Katan look like an idiot. But I guess that that was the first thing Ahsoka thought of, gives us an idea of hos she thinks of Lux.

Her conflict with Lux wasn't half bad since both sides have good points (trusting the Republic _is_ the reason Mina died, DW is a bunch of bloodthirsty criminals) and bad points (Vizla was completely honest with Lux, How did Lux get in his head they were noble and honourable? Also any plan that start with your capture is a bad plan.). Still, a pity we don't get an actual separatist hero.

Seems like Vizla really planned on integrating Lux into Death Watch. Which is weird since he isn't a Mandalorian and is a bit old to be raised into the culture. Guess they're low on numbers and he likes the kid. While the DW was gratuitously evil, it does make sense. Vizla felt his pride being attacked by someone his perceives as "lesser" and after being driven off Mandalore by satine and the Jedi _and_ somehow losing Dooku's support, he's not going to take that well. Also don't think it's a coincidence the DW all look Nordic when the innocent villagers have an East-Asian aesthetic going on.

Also, now that DW has dooku's location, I guess they will be going after him.

But seriously though, how is Lux a senator? And is Ahsoka ever going to get into trouble for her actions at the beginning of the episode? I don't think even Anakin screwed up that badly. So far.


Next up: *Deception*. Hmm... Either a tenous Jedi/DW alliance against Dooku or back to the Maul/Ventress/Dooku plot.

*So she always had "boob armour", what was all that kerfuffle about?

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## Keltest

Formally, I think all it takes to be a Mandalorian is to wear the armor, speak the language, and (train to) fight the good fight. All three of those can be taught at any age.

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## Fyraltari

> Formally, I think all it takes to be a Mandalorian is to wear the armor, speak the language, and (train to) fight the good fight. All three of those can be taught at any age.


"Mandalorian" is a whole cultural identity, with an outlook ("might makes right", especially in Death watch, for example) and traditions (the whole darksaber stuff, for example), unless you actually believe in and care about those things, are you a Mandalorian?

Like, Lux already has a home planet, where he's apparently a whole-ass senator, would he leave it to adopt Mandalor[e/ian space] as his home? Why?

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## Peelee

> Formally, I think all it takes to be a Mandalorian is to wear the armor, speak the language, and (train to) fight the good fight. All three of those can be taught at any age.


None of those are strictly required, IIRC. They never actually go into specific detail what exactly makes one a Mandalorian, but I always got the impression that it was just earnest commitment to being one.but Mandalorians are Mandalorians whether or not they have the armor.

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## Fyraltari

> None of those are strictly required, IIRC. They never actually go into specific detail what exactly makes one a Mandalorian, but I always got the impression that it was just earnest commitment to being one.but Mandalorians are Mandalorians whether or not they have the armor.


Well it's a people, just like any other, so the only way to "truly" be one is to identify as one. Whether because of blood or because that specific culture is an important part of your identity (something that often come with blood, mind, since heredity is big part of identity).

I just think Lux is a bit old for someone to expect him to fully embrace a foreign culture as his own.

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## Mechalich

The concept of Mandalorian identity is messy, since different people working in the EU at different times defined it in different ways (and Boba Fett's overly convoluted backstory kept messing things up too). As a result 'Mandalorian' means different things to different people _in-universe_ and what makes a person a Mandalorian or allows someone else to become a Mandalorian is extremely malleable. Ambitious Mandalorian leaders, such as Pre Vizla, have often deliberately played loose with the membership requirements in order to enable mass recruitment. At the same time this malleability means that whenever the Mandalorians get their buts whooped (something that happens fairly regularly actually) they can always claim that the defeated 'were no true Mandalorians,' which enables their culture to endure what would otherwise be crippling blows to its warrior ethos.

----------


## Peelee

> The concept of Mandalorian identity is messy, since different people working in the EU at different times defined it in different ways (and Boba Fett's overly convoluted backstory kept messing things up too). As a result 'Mandalorian' means different things to different people _in-universe_ and what makes a person a Mandalorian or allows someone else to become a Mandalorian is extremely malleable. Ambitious Mandalorian leaders, such as Pre Vizla, have often deliberately played loose with the membership requirements in order to enable mass recruitment. At the same time this malleability means that whenever the Mandalorians get their buts whooped (something that happens fairly regularly actually) they can always claim that the defeated 'were no true Mandalorians,' which enables their culture to endure what would otherwise be crippling blows to its warrior ethos.


Most Mandalorians (in Legends, granted) had no issue acknowledging when they were defeated.

----------


## Grim Portent

It's probably worth noting that even in Death Watch not all the Mandalorians held the same beliefs. Vizla and a chunk of his followers seemed relatively content that Maul take his place by right of strength, while Bo Katan and her splinter group considered Maul an 'outsider' and refused to follow him. Presumably this would also reflect how they would view Lux.

Pre Vizla basically seemed to be a might makes right all the way type of person, nothing else really mattered, the strongest should be in charge and define what it is to be Death Watch, and only Death Watch are true Mandalorians. Basically making being Mandalorian more like being a pirate or a gang member. It's a justification for being a violent person more than a genuine respect for tradition. Lux can be adopted as a Mandalorian simply because Pre Vizla decides he wants to and is in charge.

Bo Katan seemed to think of it as a matter of being raised in, or at least following, the old warrior creed of the Mandalorians before their civil war. An outsider who proves stronger than the current leader doesn't have the right to redefine the Mandalorians even if they won a formal challenge. She probably wouldn't have accepted Lux as a Mandalorian unless he did actually adopt a lot of their customs, because for her the traditions and customs are the part that matters.

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## Kornaki

It's kind of funny, I feel like the ambiguity of what it means to be Mandalorian is often panned as bad writing, but in a lot of ways it mirrors how actual humans think about membership in real cultural groups - no one can agree, and many people pick a definition to fit their political needs.  Maybe this is really inspired writing.

----------


## Grim Portent

I think the important thing regarding the way Mandalorian culture is portrayed by The Clone Wars, Rebels and the Mandalorian is that the Mandalorians had recently come out of a civil war after which most of their population became at least nominally pacifistic*. What it meant to be Mandalorian had been thrown into question when Satine and her faction redefined it by winning the war, and then redefined when Maul and Vizla undermined her rule and deposed her. Then of course they had a second civil war between Maul and Bo Kataan, and then got nearly exterminated by the Empire.

They went through half a dozen or so rulers in the space of what? Two decades or so? Each with vastly different ideals, and all more or less the result of internal ideological divides. Much like the treatment of the Seperatists in TCW the Mandalorians are somewhat expanded on in terms of their varied ideals, with some being hypocrites or opportunists and some being steadfast in their principles be they good or bad.



*Or at least content to live in a pacifist society rather than getting up in arms about the changes.

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## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 15: Deception*

So we don't continue from last episode, then. Been a while since we've had a standalone episode.

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The republic has arrested a criminal who plotted to abduct Chancellor Palpatine. The guy's name is Morallo Eval. Geddit? He's a bad guy and his name is Morallo Eval, do you get it? Because _morally_ he's _evil_, so his name is Morallo Eval. Do you get it? HIS NAME IS MORAL
Anyway, you'd think having this guy in prison would solve the problem but nope, rumour has it his plan is already in motion. So the Jedi Council prepare their own plot. Cut to Anakin, Ahsoka and Obi-Wan on some docks on Coruscant headed for an emergency meeting of the Council. And a sniper on the rooftops start shooting at them. Kenobi sends Skywalker to flank the sniper and Tano to cut his escape to the streets while he charges him. They lose him and Obi-Wan slowly, deliberately walks out of cover. He gets shot near the shoulder and falls to the street almost ontop of Ahsoka. The shooter escapes thanks to a jetbike and a well-timed smoke bomb. Anakin gets down to ground level where his padawan is craddling his master's body with tears in her eyes and he starts impotently calling his name. Yup, he's dead, they're retconning the movies folk! RotS, ANH, ESB, RotJ? Never happened. What a bold new direction for this show.

Cut to Kenobi's funeral at the Temple. A lot of Jedi are present plus Padmé, Bail Organa, Mon Mothma and Satine who's failing not to cry. Anakin just stares intently in front of him with his head slightly leaned towards the ground so you know he means business. Ahsoka confides to Plo Koon that Anakin hasn't said a word since Kenobi's death, which given Satine came all the way from Mandalore has to be at least a couple of days. Bah, jus tgive him a couple weeks of leave and I'm sure he'll be back perfectly fine with absolutely no lasting consequences on his psyche whatsoever. I kid but, it's honestly a pretty somber and well-composed scene. Also I like the high-tech cremation process. Guess that for Qui-Gon they had to make do with what they had on Naboo. Meanwhile, the assassin gets to a seedy bar where a random woman looks at him and says out loud to no-one in particular "wow, I want to check his midi-chlorian count." Just no. The bartender is a sentient snake, which is nice, not enough non-athro species in this universe. He orders the best drink they have a loudly proclaim he's killed Obi-wan Kenobi which gets him cheers from everybody present. Jedi are really popular, aren't they?

Back at the Temple, Yoda tells Windu he thinks they're headed to a dark path, but Mace still thinks this was the best course of action. They enter the infirmary where a still very alive Kenobi waits for them. Oh wow, I am shook. Yoda sasses him for no reason about his performance. He was wearing armour underneath his robe which is why he didn't die. (Ahsoka didn't feel it under the fabric?) And he took a vital suppressor to fake his death. Yoda thinks Anakin will eventually sense that something isn't right, but Obi-Wan insists his genuine reaction was essential to selling his "death". Bollocks. As they talk, a droid starts "shaving" Kenobi with a vaccul cleaner (ouch!) and bald!Obi-Wan shall forever haunt my nightmares. Windu briefs Obi-Wan on Eval: he works directly under Dooku (like pretty much every villain on this show) and rumour has it his plan will hatch in three revolutions (however long that is) at a festival on Naboo. Also the dude killed his mother when he was a child because he was bored. Obi-wan is taking the whole thing rather lightly but he thinks that Eval could lead them to Grievous and/or Dooku. So they _are_ in hiding? And of course Palpatine refuses to not be part of the festival to not appear weak. Then they inject Kenobi's face with a serum that shifts his features into the sniper's, including the tatoos. While he groans in pain. Guys, ever heard of anesthesia? ****'s sake.

At the cantina, the shooter, named Rako Hardeen is summoned by his employers, Kenobi and Windu who promptly mug him for his clothes (good thing they found a killer of Kenobi's size). Then they record his speech while he says they can't arrest him for a murder he didn't do. Kenobi retorts that he's legally dead, which was his intent. Guess the Galactic Republic doesn't have much in term of anti-entrapment laws. They put him to sleep and Kenobi swallows a vocal emulator so he sounds like him. Meanwhile, Yoda told Anakin and Ahsoka where to find Hardeen and although they're not clear on how he knows that they head to the cantina, complete with ominous music taken from the Imperial March. The found "Hardeen" pretending to be drunk out of his senses "Huh? A Jedi? I already killed a Jedi today, lemme sleep." Okay, that got a laugh out of me. Anakin roughs him up a little bit and tells him the only reason he doesn't kill him right there and then is out of respect for Obi-Wan. Then they deliver him to prison where Anakin volunteers to beat him up if he causes troubles.

Cut to the next day where "Kenobi's killer" is the center of every conversation at breakfast(?) time. A Karkarodon inmate tries to scare him but Obi-wan just complains about the food and stabs him with a fork and threaten to eat him. He runs away. Somebody give Obi-Wan a chill pill, please. Morallo Eval introduces himself and asks why he killed that Jedi "I guess I was bored." Eval chuckles and tells him to try the sauce to make the food a bit more palatable. Obi-Wan is later taken to his cell, or actually Eval's who bribed the guards to have a private conversation. He offers him bigger game than Jedi, involving the Chancellor. And that's the point where the cell's other inmate butts in: Cad Bane. If they're taking a random goon along, he'll want double the pay. Bane doesn't respect him because he killed a Jedi from a distance rather than face to face. And because Kenobi talked back to him, he'll ask for triple his usual rate. Is just going to find excuses to ask for more and more money all the time, or what? "That ship is lame, quadruple my rates." Eval sends "Hardeen" away and tells him to forget what he heard.

Cut to later, Kenobi finds a communicator hidden in a exercise machine and calls the Jedi (he calls himself "Ben" how cute.) He explains that Bane stopped him from learning the plan and is probably there to spring Eval out. "Foolish we were, to believe Bane's capture was without purpose" I mean, people don't usually get captured intentionally. Also, when did that happen? Kenobi decides to tag along with their escape. He also says he enjoys playing the villain. In time, he'll discover that fork-stabbing is a pathway to the Dark Side of the Force. Or to lobbing rude people's arms off, either or. Next meal time, "Hardeen" is accosted by none other than Boba Fett who insists he owes him for stealing a bounty and doesn't appreciate him not remembering it. Fett exchanges a glance with Bane and tackles Kenobi to a table. clones intervene to break up the fight, but Bossk knocks them out and tell Hardeen that a problem with Boba is a problem with him. The fight devolves into a full-blown riot. Especially when the prisoners get hold of some guards' blasters and start stunning them. Bane tells Eval he paid off the kid to create a diversion and they leave through the door some more clones just got in, with Kenobi in tow. The clones start using lethal rounds, for some reason.

Bane doesn't want Hardeen to tag along, but Morallo lets him. Bane leads them to the morgue, saying that it isn't the first time he's escaped this place. However the code to get in has changed. Kenobi says he can rewire it if they buy him some time. Once they're not looking, he uses the Force to open it. Somehow. Bane explains that corpses are sent to the crematorium by tubes and they can escape from there. They slip into coffins (Kenobi has to share with a genuine corpse. Delightful.) that the attendants send away, not noticing they were empty, moments ago. The workers of the crematorium, also clones, notice that the coffins from the prison are showing vital signs and they decide to open them to see what's up. We joke about the droids being mindless, but that's not the GRA's greatest moment, right there. The escapees kill the workers, although, when Obi-wan has one of them held at gun point he freezes, which allows him to sound the alarm. Bane kills him. And "Hardeen" claims his blaster jammed. They get past some more guard and steal a police speeder. Which they then use to steal some random quarren's ship. Bane punches out "Hardeen" for hesitating during the escape and doesn't seem impressed by him telling they wouldn't have made it without him. Still Eval, thinks he's cut out for his plan.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

That plan is duuuuuuuumb. Either Eval's plan doesn't require him leaving prison, in which case he won't tell some random inmate anything, or it does, in which case, how likely is he to incorporate a random guy he's never met into it just because he's impressed it just days before the big day. And making Anakin, Ahsoka, Padmé and Satine believe he's dead is just needlessly cruel. Like the "his reaction needed to be genuine" reason is never really convincing, but you're aiming to convince a guy who has never and most likely will never meet any (heh, I first typed "ani") of these people!

Apart from that, the episode is rather good and getting into the darker sides of the Order, as well as continuing the whole "Anakin morphing into Vader" plotline which we had no development on for a good while. Also the fact that the prison is staffed by military clone personnel is probably a hint at the greater authoritarian shift of the Republic. I'm also surprised Eval managed to buy some favours from the clones. Are they even allowed to own money?

So Dooku is sponsoring a plot to kidnap Palpatine. I can see three possible reasons for that: 1) The Sith have decided they're ready to end the war and the battle of Coruscant is replacement of this plot when it fails. 2) Eval is meant to fail and this is just keeping up with the greater "Civil War" facade.
3) Tyranus is going off-script because of Sidious's order to kill Ventress and trying to kill his master. In which case, I guess he'd be fully committing to the Separatist cause?


Next up: *Friends and enemies*.

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## Keltest

As far as Anakin and the others go, its not a secret if you go and tell everybody close to Obi-wan that its a fake. The fewer people who know the secret, the fewer ways it has to get out.

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## Peelee

> Guess the Galactic Republic doesn't have much in term of anti-entrapment laws.


Not entrapment.

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## Fyraltari

> As far as Anakin and the others go, its not a secret if you go and tell everybody close to Obi-wan that its a fake. The fewer people who know the secret, the fewer ways it has to get out.


Like, I get that, but it's still excessive. The guy they are trying to fool is in prison, and this won't matter in a few days. 



> Not entrapment.


*shrugs* Not a lawyer.

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## Peelee

> *shrugs* Not a lawyer.


Sorry, that's one of those things that bugs me - a surprisingly pervasive and common misunderstanding of entrapment. Entrapment specifically requires the person committing the crime to not commit the crime without undue influence. If I walk outside and say, "oh man, what a lovely day to be shirtless with a target painted on my chest! Fyr, have this gun for no reason!" and you take the gun and shoot me, that's not entrapment because there was no undue influence on you to commit the crime. You simply had an opportunity to commit a crime and took it. If I said "shoot me or my friend will burn your house down", _then_ that is entrapment because you would (hopefully) not have normally shot me if not for the undue influence, even with the target on my chest and me handing you a gun.

Tl;dr - asking "hey, you wanna rob a bank?" is not entrapment.
Saying, "rob this bank or go to prison" is entrapment.

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## Fyraltari

> Sorry, that's one of those things that bugs me - a surprisingly pervasive and common misunderstanding of entrapment. Entrapment specifically requires the person committing the crime to not commit the crime without undue influence. If I walk outside and say, "oh man, what a lovely day to be shirtless with a target painted on my chest! Fyr, have this gun for no reason!" and you take the gun and shoot me, that's not entrapment because there was no undue influence on you to commit the crime. You simply had an opportunity to commit a crime and took it. If I said "shoot me or my friend will burn your house down", _then_ that is entrapment because you would (hopefully) not have normally shot me if not for the undue influence, even with the target on my chest and me handing you a gun.
> 
> Tl;dr - asking "hey, you wanna rob a bank?" is not entrapment.
> Saying, "rob this bank or go to prison" is entrapment.


Still, I might get the terminology wrong, but I get the feeling that law enforcement charging a man for a murder they hired him to commit isn't a thing that should happen.

Also, good thing Hardeen didn't shoot Kenobi's exposed head.

Also, also, Bane doesn't wear the metal plates with assorted tubes he had on his cheeks in this one. I kind of assumed he needed those. Were they just a fashion statement?

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## Sapphire Guard

Sure is lucky everyone forgets that apprentices can sense when their master dies, hmm?

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## Grim Portent

> Also, also, Bane doesn't wear the metal plates with assorted tubes he had on his cheeks in this one. I kind of assumed he needed those. Were they just a fashion statement?


Presumably they do something related to the other gizmos he favours using, but I don't think it's ever explained. Maybe part of a respirator/rebreather unit he rarely uses.

PRE-EDIT: Apparently they're supposed to help resist Force Chokes. No idea how they would do that since they don't actually enter his airways in any way I can see.

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## Peelee

> Still, I might get the terminology wrong, but I get the feeling that law enforcement charging a man for a murder they hired him to commit isn't a thing that should happen.
> 
> Also, good thing Hardeen didn't shoot Kenobi's exposed head.
> 
> Also, also, Bane doesn't wear the metal plates with assorted tubes he had on his cheeks in this one. I kind of assumed he needed those. Were they just a fashion statement?


If they hired him, then that's pretty much his fault. He decided to be a hired killer. Now, charging him for a murder when the victim is alive is trash, but a cop saying "hey, guy who'll do an illegal thing anyway, wanna do it with me and thus implicate yourself?" is fine.

Also, professional shooters are trained to aim for center mass. Much easier to hit. Headshots are typically jot desirable.

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## Grim Portent

> If they hired him, then that's pretty much his fault. He decided to be a hired killer. Now, charging him for a murder when the victim is alive is trash, but a cop saying "hey, guy who'll do an illegal thing anyway, wanna do it with me and thus implicate yourself?" is fine.


To a certain extent I would say he crossed the relevant boxes to be morally and ethically considered a murderer, given that he shot someone with intent to kill them for money and thought he had succeeded. Legally is another matter, but we don't actually know what Republic law is in regards to trying to kill someone, they might not distinguish between attempted homicide and actual homicide.

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## Peelee

> To a certain extent I would say he crossed the relevant boxes to be morally and ethically considered a murderer, given that he shot someone with intent to kill them for money and thought he had succeeded. Legally is another matter, but we don't actually know what Republic law is in regards to trying to kill someone, they might not distinguish between attempted homicide and actual homicide.


"Inchoate" is a relevant word here! Basically, inchoate crimes means "its a crime even it fails". The Republic may simply lump inchoate crimes together with fully completed crimes. But I'm pretty sure this is simply bad writing. It bring TCW and all.

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## Sapphire Guard

It's fair enough that they don't want to get bogged down in legal argument. But 'didn't succeed in killing my target' doesn't mean he gets to walk, doesn't require any weird legalities.

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## Fyraltari

> PRE-EDIT: Apparently they're supposed to help resist Force Chokes. No idea how they would do that since they don't actually enter his airways in any way I can see.


That makes no sense. Then again, esthetics over functionality is nothing new to _Star Wars_ design.



> Also, professional shooters are trained to aim for center mass. Much easier to hit. Headshots are typically jot desirable.


I can think of a very well-known assasination where the murderer shot his victim through the head despite being far away. I'm not saying this is a plot-hole, Obi-Wan has do e and will do riskier things in his life but it was a pretty big gamble on their part. Just imagine Anakins 's reaction to learning that the man who murdered (actually murdered in this scenario) his beloved master was hired to do so by Windu and Yoda.

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## Grim Portent

> That makes no sense. Then again, esthetics over functionality is nothing new to _Star Wars_ design.


I think it's a legacy of the sometimes janky props of the original Star Wars and other sci fi/space fantasy. An easy way to make something or someone look spacey is to add ribbed cables to them, even when it doesn't make sense to do so, and then come up with a half arsed explanation for what the cables are later.

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## Peelee

> I can think of a very well-known assasination where the murderer shot his victim through the head despite being far away.


And for every headshot, there are hundreds of chest shots. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying it shouldn't be the expectation.

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## Kornaki

Interestingly, that very famous assassin tried to kill Edwin Walker several months earlier, and missed.  I think Wayne Gretzky said you don't hear about 100% of the shots they don't make, or something like that.

Anyway, obi wan is a Jedi. If he can block a laser shot with a sword, he can probably position his head so it isn't the part that gets hit.

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## Keltest

> Interestingly, that very famous assassin tried to kill Edwin Walker several months earlier, and missed.  I think Wayne Gretzky said you don't hear about 100% of the shots they don't make, or something like that.
> 
> Anyway, obi wan is a Jedi. If he can block a laser shot with a sword, he can probably position his head so it isn't the part that gets hit.


Or they could just hire a professional who shoots center mass.

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## Mechalich

For the specific purpose of assassination/sniping, under certain circumstances the head is a preferable target to the center of mass, such as when the target is likely to be wearing body armor but not wearing a helmet, ex. a public figure giving a speech. Since Jedi, notably including Obi-Wan, do wear armor sometimes but almost never wear helmets, attempting to snipe them in the head makes sense.

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## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 16: Friends and Ennemies*

Doesn't "Friends and Foes" just plainly sound better? Anyway,

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Kenobi, Bane and Eval are on the run, near Nal Hutta. Kenobi is purposefully crashing their ship in a swamp in order to hide their tracks. I mean, it's unlikely the theft of that ship was already connected to the prison's break-out. You didn't just steal the first ship you came across, did you? Also, why isn't Bane the one making this decision, did he not plan the get away any further than "out of the prison"? Kenobi knows a nearby bazaar they can buy a new ship in (buy, not steal, so the authorities won't bother them). But first Bane wants to change out of their prison uniform, also he's worried about a bounty being put on their heads. Ironic, isn't it?

He leads them to Pablos' Pawn Shop (a Rodian called _Pablo_? I don't recall any non-human having regular human names in _Star Wars_ before) where they can find everything they need and more. Everybody, Eval included, gets a new armor and some gadgets. Bane even finds a hat to his liking (after discarding Pr. Jones' fedora. Pfft, barbarian). However, Bane finds the choice of weapons lousy. When Pablo points out they are obviously on the run, the Duro stabs him in the throat with a toothpick and tell him to zip it. Kenobi tries to pay but Pablo's Twi'lek assistant (girlfriend?) swats the money out of his hand.

Kenobi chews out the bounty hunter for his behaviour, telling him the trader is probably calling the Hutts right now to tell on them. Bane isn't worried since everybody around there is an outlaw, but still, it'd be better to split: "Hardeen" finds a ship while the other two look for weapons. Bane tells Eval he plans on throwing "Hardeen" to the Hutts and escaping without him as both a business and personal matter. Kenobi buys a ship from a Bith and hides a tracking beacon on it, just before his "friends" arrive. Eval is the one paying which makes me wonder, where did they get any money? Bane tells "Hardeen" they dodn't get him a weapon, because he's not coming along (so he doesn't have to split the reward) and Eval washes his hands of that matter (What? You're the boss, you should be the one making these decisions!). Just at this moment, a couple Gamorrean guards, Pablo and his twi'lek girlfriends arrive, pointing at them. Bane doses Harkeen with some green smoke and shoves him to the authorities.

Kenobi comes to in a torture dungeon being interrogated about his partners. He immediately tells them about the tracking device. Cut to the other two, still in Nal Hutta's atmosphere. Eval phones Dooku to tell him he's been delayed but will be back in time for the the plan to go on (the Count is getting impatient), Bane just wants to know when he's getting payed and eval tells him he need to be on Serenno first. Then they get shot at by Hutt fighters. Bane immediately figures out what's happened, but their engines are too damaged for them to leave the planet. However, Kenobi's guard reneges on their deal and refuses to let him go. The Jedi uses the Force to loosen his restraints, steal the guy's weapon and knock him out. He very easily escapes and calls the Council to have them remove the bounty on their heads. Also, to avoid any further complications, he tells them not to try to contact him or send any help regardless of any reports they receive. Oh, and, can they lend him fifty bucks? He's gotta buy a new ship.

Cut to Palpatine's office who wants to know why the bounty on the heads of the people planning to kidnap him are being removed. Windu simply say that them being free to move can help them uncover the whole plot. Palpatine accepts this and hangs up. Turns out Skywalker was listening to the conversation with him, and he takes the idea of not pursuing Obi-Wan's murderer about as calmly as you'd expect. Palpatine says that the Council possibly don't trust him to rein in his feelings. he tells him his feelings are what makes him special, so he shouldn't deny him  and he trusts him to stop the plot against him. Also he knows the fugitives were headed to Nal Hutta. "Thank you, Chancellor. You won't regret this. -No, I won't."

Bane and Eval walk back into whatever that town they were in is called (I guess the news that the bounty was cancelled travelled very fast) and find "Hardeen" waiting fro them at a bar. Bane wants to beat the crap out of him but Eval hasn't got time for these shenanigans any more. "Hardeen" says he's got a ship ready for them but he will only let them onboard if he's made a full partner to their plan. Morallo Eval accepts. Cad wants to know how he did this, Kenobi says the Hutt owed him a favour (not a bad lie, honestly) and says him and bane are square now. They leave while the bartender complains about them not paying for the mess they've made. They get into his ship (still bickering about the reward) and leave just as Anakin and Ahsoka land. The two Jedi go to the saloon the fugitives just left. Is that Sy Snootles, drunk, telling two bikini-clad Twi'lek girls how much she loves them? Okay, moving on. Anakin Force-shoves two gamorreans out of their way and start interrogating the owner (and Ithorian with a voice-box so he can speak basic). When he gets the slightest bit uncooperative, Skywalker Force-chokes him and he tells them he doesn't know where the fugitives are but he _does_ know they've just bought a ship.

Cut to Coruscant, Rex, who's apparently been tasked with guarding Palpatine (an excuse for him and Anakin to hang out?), gets a call from Windu who Skywalker has been ghosting. Palpatine tells the Jedi he sent Anakin to Nal Hutta despit ethe Council's plan because Eval seems to be several steps ahead of them. He also tells him to have more faith in Skywalker and they leave. Windu thinks he can't warn Obi-Wan without blowing his cover, but Yoda is worried about Anakin killing Obi-Wan (about two decades too ealy for that) or the reverse so he decides to warn them both, the truth is overdue anyway. I agree, this is wayyyyy to let to tell Anakin. Meanwhile, at the spaceship dealership (heh), the seller expalins to Anakin that he only sells ships with enough fuel to reach a gas-station on Orandia, which is owned by his brother. 1) That's a good hustle, 2) Are we retconning Nar Shaada? That has got to be much closer than wherever "Orandia" is 3) Look at that a lack of fuel being important in SW, my, I would never. 4) I never tire of the SW thing where tow people speak different languages and one of them as to repeat everything they're told so the audience can follow the conversation. Also Ahsoka is worried they'll steal yet another ship on Orandia.

On Oradia, eval's patience is being stretched thin but this new delay, and by Bane complaining about him paying for the fuel when he still hasn't been payed (Kenobi seems to find that very funny). The Jedi arrive just as they take off, and Ahsoka spots Cad Bane's distinctive hat. Anakin rams them repeatedly to stop them from going into space and then jumps on the criminals' ship. "Hardeen" volunteers to take care of him, but Bane reeeeaaaally wants to kill a Jedi today. The fight for a while (Anakin manages to destroy one of Bane's ankle-rockets but he manages with only one). Kneobi deliberately crashes both ships to the ground to break off their fight (I think). Obi-Wan leaves the ship to check on Anakin who immediately tackles him and tells him he's going to pay for his own murder. He's only saved by Bane's intervention who is still fixated on the idea of killing Anakin. Kenobi ends up wrestling with Skywalker on the ground and whispers in his ear, somehow using his actual voice despite the device in his throat, not to follow him. Meh, should have told him to stop Panakin. Anakin passes out from the strangulation, but Ahsoka shows up beofre Bane can finish him off. Then Eval shows up, saying that the ship is still operationnal and he wants to leave immediately. Bane offers Ahsoka to dance another time and they leave.

Anakin wakes up as the fugitive take off and he muses that he did sense a connection. He tells Ahsoka that Obi-Wan is still alive and although neither of them understand it, they'll get to the bottom of this.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

that episode wasn't ahlf bad, but I think it dragged on a bit. I think Anakin hunting down Obi-Wan should have had more focus and "Hardeen" and Bane squabbling less.
I think Bane comes off as much less professional than before in this: not really having a plan of escape, pointlessly antagonizing Pablo and trying to get rid of "Hardeen" even though he's already negotiated a bigger pay is he tags along.
This episode confirms that Sidious is in on the abducting plan (I think, Dooku was the one who told him they were on Nal Hutta) but at the same time he seems willing to ditch it if that helps Anakin sliding further towards the Dark Side.
Speaking of which I am glad we are getting more "Anakin turns into Vader" stuff because that was really missing from that season. That and an update on the Maul plot.

In any case, I am curious to see where this story goes.


Next up: *The Box*.

----------


## Keltest

As far as the fuel thing goes, Nar Shaada is a sufficiently densely populated hive of scum and villainy that people looking to get a fast track out of the system almost certainly dont want to stop there to refuel.

Or, frankly, for any other reason. Its kind of a crappy place, in a wonderfully different way from Nal Hutta.

Also, totally agreed about Bane's professionalism. Bounty Hunters in general in TCW are pretty bad about that. Seeing the guild having actual rules in The Mandalorian is a nice change.

----------


## Mechalich

> Also, totally agreed about Bane's professionalism. Bounty Hunters in general in TCW are pretty bad about that. Seeing the guild having actual rules in The Mandalorian is a nice change.


That may be a timeline thing to some degree. Bounty hunting prior to the Clone Wars mostly happened in Hutt Space and other non-Republic territories, and the Hutts have a very well, Hutt, concept of professionalism, so the bounty hunters of this period were particularly wild because they lived in a world of constant betrayal. After the Empire was established bounty hunting slowly crept inward (literally, in the sense of moving closer to the center of the galaxy) into more civilized and urbanized territories because Palpatine felt a need for bounty hunters as a resource for various reasons - such as not being able to trust his own official subordinates as far as he could Force Throw them - and their interactions with the Imperial bureaucracy would impose a layer of forced professionalism upon them. For instance, the scene in ESB when the Imperial officers denigrate the best bounty hunters in the galaxy _to their faces_ indicates how hair trigger types would struggle to survive in this system.

----------


## Peelee

> Cut to Coruscant, Rex, who's apparently been tasked with guarding Palpatine (an excuse for him and Anakin to hang out?)


No it's a little. Simpler than that. Despite the movies and show claiming there are millions of clones (in a galaxy with trillions of planets, the war is effectively two factions with pea shooters), There's really only like 20, so odds are pretty good that Rex or Cody or any of the ones whose names we know will be more or less everywhere.

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## Fyraltari

> No it's a little. Simpler than that. Despite the movies and show claiming there are millions of clones (in a galaxy with trillions of planets, the war is effectively two factions with pea shooters), There's really only like 20, so odds are pretty good that Rex or Cody or any of the ones whose names we know will be more or less everywhere.


I mean, true, but Senate Guards exist.

----------


## Keltest

> I mean, true, but Senate Guards exist.


Eh, its not that implausible, or even particularly odd. They know of a kidnapping attempt which means extra security. Palpatine and Anakin are friends, of a sort, so its only natural that Anakin is in the area even if they just have him on standby. The 501st are Anakin's troops.

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## Fyraltari

> Bounty Hunters in general in TCW are pretty bad about that. Seeing the guild having actual rules in The Mandalorian is a nice change.


Well, you know what they say: "bounty hunting is complicated profession."

----------


## Keltest

> Well, you know what they say: "bounty hunting is complicated profession."


Yeah. Apparently this is because they all go out deliberately making their jobs harder than they need to be by needlessly antagonizing everybody they need to work with.

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## Peelee

> Yeah. Apparently this is because they all go out deliberately making their jobs harder than they need to be by needlessly antagonizing everybody they need to work with.


I would imagine that the venn diagram of "people who become bounty hunters in the Star Wars universe" and "people who treat other people well" is a circle. With another circle like, way over there.

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## Fyraltari

> I would imagine that the venn diagram of "people who become bounty hunters in the Star Wars universe" and "people who treat other people well" is a circle. With another circle like, way over there.


*Spoiler: Din Djarin be like*
Show

----------


## Peelee

> *Spoiler: Din Djarin be like*
> Show


Eh, he's mostly indifferent to strangers.

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## Fyraltari

> Eh, he's mostly indifferent to strangers.


A) that's lowering the bar a lot.
B)Is he? He saved the Child when that made his life considerably harder, spared Pershing specifically because he protected the Child, protected the villagerd when he didn't have to (if memory serves), is on speaking terms with the Tusken when literally everybody else shoot them on sight, chose to help Vanth fight the Krayt dragon for the armour when it'd have been easier to kill Vanth for it, never reneges a deal and is always respectful (droidism aside) unless provoked.

Sounds like someone who treats others well to me.

----------


## Peelee

> A) that's lowering the bar a lot.
> B)Is he? He saved the Child when that made his life considerably harder, spared Pershing specifically because he protected the Child, protected the villagerd when he didn't have to (if memory serves), is on speaking terms with the Tusken when literally everybody else shoot them on sight, chose to help Vanth fight the Krayt dragon for the armour when it'd have been easier to kill Vanth for it, never reneges a deal and is always respectful (droidism aside) unless provoked.
> 
> Sounds like someone who treats others well to me.


The Child is different. He has qualms about children, which is understandable given his Mandalorian upbringing. Pershing tried to save the child, the Tuskens controlled the land he needed to negotiate crossing, came to a deal with Vanth, etc etc. He has no problem dealing fairly. 

He's openly disrespectful of the gunslinger until they come to a deal, is fairly dismissive of the ferryman and the driver in the pilot, is dismissive of the frog lady, tells the townsfolk who want to hire him that jt sucks to be them until he finds out they have something he wants, etc etc.

Hes not openly antagonistic to every given person, sure, but he sure as hell doesn't treat most of them with respect. They're all transactional. Even the Tuskens. But i never said "openly antagonistic".

----------


## Grim Portent

> I mean, true, but Senate Guards exist.


There's a few possible reasons to use clones instead.

Obviously Palpatine could have requested the 501st as a pretence to influence Anakin, indeed the whole scheme is fundamentally about manipulation anyway.

Anakin could have been assigned to protect the Chancellor by the Jedi Council, after all they use Anakin as a sort of spy because they think Palpatine trusts him. Anakin would then have requested elements of the 501st be involved because he trusts them more than the senate guards.

Propaganda. Palpatine used clones as the 'bad guys' serving as the hand of the Jedi for the purposes of optics. Having the army commanded by the Jedi involved in civilian security matters makes it easy to frame the Jedi as overreaching and tyrannical. The Coruscant Guard are a good example, used as a way to suppress dissidents by Palpatine, but clones were heavily associated with the Jedi and the war by the media that Palpatine controlled.

Palpatine was phasing out the Republic's security organisations in favour of his own guards, such as the Red Guard. Sidelining the Senate Guard in matters like this helps make them look ineffective to a casual glance, and as such justifies replacing them with a group with no other loyalties and a more militaristic bent.

----------


## Mechalich

> Palpatine was phasing out the Republic's security organisations in favour of his own guards, such as the Red Guard. Sidelining the Senate Guard in matters like this helps make them look ineffective to a casual glance, and as such justifies replacing them with a group with no other loyalties and a more militaristic bent.


It's probably this one. TCW includes a number of scenes involving the failure and treachery of the Senate Guard, most of which has already occurred by this point in the timeline. The idea that Palpatine would have shifted at least some of their security responsibilities to the clones by this time is logical. Using Rex, specifically, is the hard sell. Clone security on Coruscant was the responsibility of the Coruscant Guard, a specialized Shock Trooper unit, and Rex is very much not in their command chain (multiple commanders from the unit appear in TCW). 

I think Rex's presence is explained in that _Anakin_ is supposed to be guarding Palpatine right now and not galivanting across the galaxy in pursuit of a rogue bounty hunter, and he left Rex behind to serve as a secure communications link to Palps that the Jedi Council doesn't control (because the clones have a separate comm network the Council isn't privy too, something we know from Order 66).

----------


## Sapphire Guard

I suspect the main reason is just that they didn't want to make a new model.

----------


## Doug Lampert

> The execution squad is lead by Dogma and includes Top. I don't think it's policy in any army to have people be executed by their own squadmates, but story got to story.


Just a quick note on this. Roman decimation involved the rest of the squad beating to death the man chosen to be killed, it was part of the punishment that they not only killed a tenth of the unit, but they made the rest of the unit be the ones to do it.

But that's because it was very specifically a punishment for the entire unit.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Just a quick note on this. Roman decimation involved the rest of the squad beating to death the man chosen to be killed, it was part of the punishment that they not only killed a tenth of the unit, but they made the rest of the unit be the ones to do it.
> 
> But that's because it was very specifically a punishment for the entire unit.


It was also _extremely_ rare.

----------


## Doug Lampert

> It was also _extremely_ rare.


Well, yeah, you're executing a large number of randomly chosen citizens of the legionary social class (pre-Marian reforms) in a republic where the legionary infantry class is the most important single block of votes. You're not going to do that casually, as it probably makes it hard to get reelected unless most people agree that it was justified.

There were other offences that got the Fustuarium (being beaten to death by your fellow soldiers), but the other cases were mostly offenses AGAINST your fellow soldiers (sentries abandoning their post or theft from others in camp).

----------


## Fyraltari

> Well, yeah, you're executing a large number of randomly chosen citizens of the legionary social class (pre-Marian reforms) in a republic where the legionary infantry class is the most important single block of votes. You're not going to do that casually, as it probably makes it hard to get reelected unless most people agree that it was justified.


And also: you lose one tenth of your fighting force and the remanining nine tenth  now both are severely demoralized and hate your guts.
Not a recipe for success.

----------


## pendell

> And also: you lose one tenth of your fighting force and the remanining nine tenth  now both are severely demoralized and hate your guts.
> Not a recipe for success.


The assumption is that if you're executing this punishment, the fighting force is already ineffective and so drastic measures are needed to put the heart back into them.  It's something you do when the formation is already so panicky people are deserting in large numbers, to the point dissolution of the entire formation is on the table if something is not done. 

* Self -scrubbed example* 

ETA: More armies than the Romans had done this. I had a more recent example but have scrubbed it out of respect for the forum rules. As they say, "if in doubt, don't".

The point of the exercise is clear. The soldiers have more to fear from running than they have to fear from the enemy, and they had best police each other because if someone runs, the punishment will fall on those who stayed behind and did not stop him. 

Did it *work*? 

The Romans  were not noted for their cowardice in battle, so perhaps it did , to some extent. But then again, other militaries have also developed a reputation for courage WITHOUT murdering their own soldiers.  At least, not randomly.  The death penalty is still on the books for a whole host of crimes such as desertion during wartime etc.  But there's a difference between executing a specific person for a crime they specifically and provably committed, versus killing a random soldier to encourage the others.  

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Keltest

Given the nature of the 501st (ie very close and brotherly) and the circumstances of the battle theyre in, finding men to execute them who ARENT at least loosely friends with them would have been extremely difficult. Doubly so because the only other available unit is Obi-wan Kenobi's, and he obviously cant be involved with Krell's scheme or he'll figure out Krell's treachery.

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## Fyraltari

I'm just writing this to tell you that, although I have watched the next episode, I have been too busy with starting the new job, family gatherings, meeting some old friends and helping my parents move 20-odd years worth of stuff to the new house to make the time to write a review, and I am not sure, I'll be able to find it in the next couple of weeks.

Sorry about that.

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## Sapphire Guard

Stop prioritising your family over the entertainment of strangers on the internet immediately!

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## Peelee

> Stop prioritising your family over the entertainment of strangers on the internet immediately!


Dammit, if I hadn't just changed my sig line I would have asked to sig that.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 17: The Box*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Thanks to his association with Eval and Bane, Kenobi did manage to locate Dooku at last! He was on his own palace, on his homeworld the whole time, the fiend! Eval introduces "Hardeen" to Dooku and suggests they enlist him into the tournament that the opening narration mentionned as if we were already aware there was going to be one. Dooku agrees to pay the mercenaries, at long last, and promises even greater rewards (triple Bane's fee, I don't know if that includes his previous tripling of his fee back in the jail), provided they survive their little friendly contest of course. Back in the Jedi Temple, Yoda confesses to Anakin that he lied to him and admits he was wrong (well, that's a first). He explains that Anakin is powerful but unpredictable and can be dangerous, so Obi-Wan couldn't rely on him to sit tight while he was dangerously undercover. Okay, that's a much better reason to lie to him than that "his reaction needed to be genuine" bullcrap. What it also his, is an implicit acknowledgement of how terrible a Jedi he is, and, in turn, how badlu they screwed his training up.

It's night on Serenno and Harkeen and Bane join a dozen or so of shady-looking people, including Embo from the _Seven Samurai_ episode. Bane spots an Ithorian cosplaying as him and gets pissed at how nice his hat is. The Ithorian draws a gun but Bane is faster and he loots his (nicer) hat from the corpse. Dooku and Eval show up and the Count introduces everybody: A weequay ninja who won "the Obsidian Sphere", whatever that is, twice, a humanoid mushroom with tentacles nicknamed "the exterminator", lovely, a devil-looking dude nicknamed "the Outland butcher", original, Embo whose bounty tally was second to one (Bane?) last season, Cad Bane, who needs no introduction, badass, "Rako Hardeen", the Marksman of Concord Dawn (hold up, Hardeen is a Mando?), a Rodian who never brings anyone back alive, the surviving member of a legendary team of Ithorian brothers (Dooku shows absolutely no sympathy, but I gotta salute the resolve of still going through even though his sibling just died, right now. But I gotta unsalute the fact that he didn't shoot Bane when he turned his back on him just now), a lizard woman who Valorum once praised for her acrobatics, a porcine man who invented the holographic disguise matrix and a Selkath, "Your people were once a peaceful race, how far they've fallen", that's just rude, Count. Dooku explains they will all enter (without weapons) a huge floating cube (that they apparently failed to notice until then) called "The Box" (creative), but only the five best will be allowed to leave and participate in an operation that will "bring the Republic to its pitiful knees". Morallo Eval steps up and explains that he designed The Box to simulate certain situations that might happen on the job. Isn't the kidnapping going to happen tomorrow? This feels way to let for them to be deciding who they are going to hire.

The candidates arrive inside an empty white room where an image of Eval tells them there are no rules inside and that their objective it to escape. Quickly. A tile in the floor retracts, realeasing a noxious gas (well, smoke actually) while other rises above the cloud. The bounty hunters fight for a spot on the collumns but everybody gets one eventually, except the mushroom man who can levitate apparently. Of course the columns keep rising, threatening to squash them against the ceiling. Kenobi guesses that is the way out isn't up, it must be down, and jumps into the cloud, protected by his helmet's filters. He jumps further down, inside the hole where the gas is coming from and finds a corridor under the cloud. He tells the others to follow him, which they do, lead by Bane. They just have to hold their breath a few seconds so everyone makes it out alive.

They end up in a similar room, where Moralo guarantees the next challenge _will_ kill some of them. The light go out but various blocks of the walls start racing towards them with freaking lightsabers at the end! How many does Dooku own? Okay on closer inspection, they produce some sort of electric arc when stabbing someone, so they aren't lightsabers but look a lot like them. The Ithorian is the first to die. Ten left. while everybody dodges frantically until they gather in the center of the room which is relatively safer. Dooku, watching alongside Hardeen from some control room, says he senses something "different" about Hardeen, and is impressed to learn he killed Kenobi. Come on! Can't you recognize his presence in the Force? You know Kenobi. Obi-Wan spots a pattern in the moving plates that creates a temporary staircase towards a hole in the ceiling, he tells them to follow him and starts climbing. The weequay gets killed. Nine left. In the background Embo seems to be throttling the porcine man and he disappears after that. What is this about? Anyway, eight left. All the other bounty hunters get to show off their skills in climbing while dodging the blades (Embo just jumps good, while the mushroom man casually floats to some plates he uses to err.. roll around?).

Eval seems frustrated by the outcome, while Dooku wonders if Hardeen wouldn't be the best leader of the team. Morallo says they'll see what happens when he's not the key the group's survival. They have reached some red-lighted room (Obi-wan helps the rodian climb, that's nice) where Eval explains that the second-to-last challenge is to get past some ray-shields. The switch is on the other side, of course but he gives them a syringe containing one dose of highly electrolytic (I think he said?) that allow passage throught the shileds but is toxic to all but one of them. And the shields are slowly getting closer, as is only natural. They start looking for a way to reach the switch (which is high up on the wall) when part of the ground rises under their feet. the Rodian is left below just as another shield switches on on the ground, electrocuting him. Seven left. Huh, did ray shields ever do that before? A paths rises from the floor towards the switch. The mushroom man grabs the syringe. Bane objects and can't understand what the other bounty hunter is saying. But, Obi-Wan can. Is there a tally of how many languages Kenobi speaks? Turns out his species is called Parwan, and they can handle the serum. Well, Kenobi clarifies that it's a fifty-fifty chance, depending on the blood-type. And the platform starts retracting. The Selkath falls before Obi-Wan can grab his hand and dies. Six left. The Parwan injects himself, slooowly passes through the shields and switches it off. Bane wants to know how "Hardeen" knows so much about Parwans "I used to kill them for a living. -Gah!". Heh, that was funny. And horrifying.

Dooku tells Eval that his box doesn't seem to be as much of a challenge as he thought and perhaps he should put Hardeen in charge of the mission. Why, though? They've almost whittled them down to the required fives and there's only one test to go. Isn't that a success? Eval protests that Dooku promised him the lead role and the sith gives hil the last test to change his mind. Eval then leaves the control room to get to a ledge overseeing the final chamber for no reason. The last room is grey and they arrive on a platform, the ground below being covered in flamethrowers. A part of the wall reveals a case containing a sniper rifle and a moving targets lights up on the opposite wall. The devil-looking dude grabs it and tells the others he'll show them how it's done. He walks to the edge of the platform and shoots the target twice, missing the third time. The floor collapses under him and he falls into the flames. Down to five. Well test over, you've got your five mercenaries: Bane, "Hardeen", Embo, the parwan and the reptilian acrobat. No? this is still going? Eval wants "Hardeen" dead? But you said you need five people for the job? Aren't you compromising your masterplan? Obi-Wan grabs another rifle and shoots the target three times. Nothing happens, but Evel uses his armband controls to rise the platform under the other four, then lowers it around "Hardeen" and teels him he needs five more hits. Also there are two targets now. OBi-wan gets four hits in and runs out of ammo. Eval tells him luck is very important for bounty hunters and drops the platform under him. Bane catches him with his grappling hook. Was Obi-Wan just going to accept death rather than break his cover there?

Bane tells Eval to kill Hardeen like a man and Dooku concurs. He switches most of the flamethrowers off, leaving only a rectangle along the walls and trips Eval onto the ground before providing, and lowereing, a column for "Hardeen" to join him. Eval summons a couple of miniature probe droids (they even do the usual sounds) to shoot at his opponent. Kenobi punches most of them out of existence, then grabs the last one, uses it to do a wall run and throws it at Eval (it bouces and crashes into the flames) okay, that was cool. Morallo creates a little maze to evade him for a moment and trap him with some flamethrowers, but Kenobi jumps out, tackles Morallo and breaks his control armband. They puch each other, until Obi-Wan gets the better of him, beats the crap out of the guy while his head is dangerously close to the flames.

Dooku orders him to finish him, but he declines "I just want to do my job and get my money." Dooku calls him lacking in leadership skills. Murder is a leadership skill? I guess that's the Sith for ya. He explains that they will kidnapp Palpatine the next day at the festival on Naboo and exchange him for the release of all Separatists prisoners. That's it? You went through all this just to get Watt Tambor, Poggle the Lesser and a handful of flunkies out of jail? That's... really disappointing. Eval will explain the plan on the way, but the operation will be lead by... CAd Bane.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Let's start with the Anakin bit. Like I said, it's a better reason to keep him out of the loop than we had before and an acknowledgement that he's a bad Jedi (Maybe they would have trusted him to follow orders more if they had punished him the many times he didn't.) I'm guessing he'll be running the security on Naboo too.

Now for the baddies' plan. Why are they doing all that on the eve of the job? They won't even have a good night's rest before going in, that's insane. And what if fewer than five of them survived, as Morallo Eval was et on making happen? Or if the parwan had died? He was apparently irreplaceable. I don't understand why the writers didn't set the last episode of this arc like, a week at least after the other three. Also, Wow, the Naboo festival has some strange security apparently. Also I find it funny that not one of the bounty hunters noped out of the the less-than-1/2-chances-to-get-out-alive contest that's _just_ a preliminary for a vaguely defined job for an equally as vague reward.

Why did Moralo feel threatened by "Hardeen"? He vouched for him, "Hardeen" being the most competent should reflect positively on him.



Next up: *Crisis on Naboo*, as opposed to all the other times we've been to Naboo where it was all super peachy.

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## Sapphire Guard

Nothing that happens in the Box makes any sense. Also Obi Wan is very bad at being in disguise. If he's not there, then all the bounty hunters are dead and you have no one left to work for you, rendering the whole thing pretty pointless.

----------


## pendell

*Spoiler: Fyaltari*
Show



Why did Moralo feel threatened by "Hardeen"? He vouched for him, "Hardeen" being the most competent should reflect positively on him.

 

Remember who they're working for. Remember they just entered a competition from whom only half emerged alive.  

That's the Sith for you. They're like {scrubbed}. 




> [we're going to have a sales contest].  First prize is an Eldorado Cadillac. Second Prize is a second set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.


The Sith do not encourage comradery, teamwork, or friendship. They encourage brutal competition, treachery, and ruthlessness.  

So it's no surprise that other 'employees' in this environment feel threatened by any show of really great merit or skill among another of their members.  It means that sooner or later this person is going to mean your own death, because you'll be forced to compete with them at some point in a contest where continued life is the prize for winning.  

We see some of that in Empire Strikes Back as well.  Remember how Admiral Ozzel glared at Captain Piett when Piett found the rebel base and Vader took his side over Ozzel's?  Ozzel glared at him because Piett had made him look bad, made him look stupid, and that is not at all a good look in front of a boss like Vader.  

Turns out, Admiral Ozzel was right to be concerned. Vader did, in fact, kill him and replace him with Piett. Such is the way of the Sith.  They don't tolerate any show of weakness or incompetence. 

You would think that such an environment would produce very competent people through ruthless Darwinism.  But as far as I can see , it doesn't. What it _actually_ promotes are people like Ozzel, people whose main skill  is at looking good in front of superiors, taking all possible credit and deflecting as much blame as feasible onto other subordinates.   

So that kind of environment actually kills merit rather than causing it to thrive. Because anyone who shows real merit but doesn't also have the social acumen to protect themselves will have their credit stolen, be laden with the blame for some failure, and pushed out of the organization or reassigned to some miserable post far away where they can show all the brilliance they like, say, running a weather station in Greenland, but no one important will notice.  Maybe if they're lucky someone will take them on as a protege so they can do the work the other person will take credit for and , in return, give them a measure of protection.  But as a rule, the people who rise to the top are people like Ozzel, people good at the social game while carefully disguising their own lack of skill at their ostensible job.  Unless they actually get put in a spot like Ozzel did where their actual lack of competence is put on obvious display to the whole world.  But for every one Ozzel caught out, there are many more just like him who are better at hiding it. 

That's the Sith for you. They encourage treachery and competition. So their subordinates hate and fear anyone better than themselves, will conspire to eliminate them. Like in an RTS game where it's never a good idea to be doing obviously better than everyone else, lest the other players all gang up on you.  

That's also, in my opinion, one reason they lost the original wars with the Jedi.  Sith are individually more powerful, but they can't team up. This allows Jedi teams to collaborate and eliminate Sith , sometimes with the help of competing Sith. That's why there's the Rule of Two, and that's why the Sith were in hiding for a thousand years instead of ruling the galaxy. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Fyraltari

I know of a movie (serie?) called _The Cube_. Was this a reference to that?



> Obi Wan is very bad at being in disguise.


How so?



> If he's not there, then all the bounty hunters are dead and you have no one left to work for you, rendering the whole thing pretty pointless.


I think Bane could have managed.



> *Spoiler: Fyaltari*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Why did Moralo feel threatened by "Hardeen"? He vouched for him, "Hardeen" being the most competent should reflect positively on him.


Did you mix the "spoiler" and "quote" buttons?




> Remember who they're working for. Remember they just entered a competition from whom only half emerged alive.
> 
> That's the Sith for you. They're like {scrubbed}. 
> 
> 
> 
> The Sith do not encourage comradery, teamwork, or friendship. They encourage brutal competition, treachery, and ruthlessness.  
> 
> So it's no surprise that other 'employees' in this environment feel threatened by any show of really great merit or skill among another of their members.


But Eval isn't in The Box, he's not in competition with these people. He came up with the plan and made the necessary preparations and groundwork. They're working for him. To reuse your example, it's less like Oszel worrying about Piett and more like Ozzel worrying about stormtrooper TK-2375, they're not on the same level, it doesn't make sense.




> We see some of that in Empire Strikes Back as well.  Remember how Admiral Ozzel glared at Captain Piett when Piett found the rebel base and Vader took his side over Ozzel's?  Ozzel glared at him because Piett had made him look bad, made him look stupid, and that is not at all a good look in front of a boss like Vader.


I think directly proving your boss wrong in front of the big boss would earn you a mean look in any work environment.




> Turns out, Admiral Ozzel was right to be concerned. Vader did, in fact, kill him and replace him with Piett. Such is the way of the Sith.  They don't tolerate any show of weakness or incompetence.


Seems like they tolerate some, this this wasn't the *first* time Ozzel failed him.




> You would think that such an environment would produce very competent people through ruthless Darwinism.  But as far as I can see , it doesn't. What it _actually_ promotes are people like Ozzel, people whose main skill  is at looking good in front of superiors, taking all possible credit and deflecting as much blame as feasible onto other subordinates.   
> 
> So that kind of environment actually kills merit rather than causing it to thrive. Because anyone who shows real merit but doesn't also have the social acumen to protect themselves will have their credit stolen, be laden with the blame for some failure, and pushed out of the organization or reassigned to some miserable post far away where they can show all the brilliance they like, say, running a weather station in Greenland, but no one important will notice.  Maybe if they're lucky someone will take them on as a protege so they can do the work the other person will take credit for and , in return, give them a measure of protection.  But as a rule, the people who rise to the top are people like Ozzel, people good at the social game while carefully disguising their own lack of skill at their ostensible job.  Unless they actually get put in a spot like Ozzel did where their actual lack of competence is put on obvious display to the whole world.  But for every one Ozzel caught out, there are many more just like him who are better at hiding it. 
> 
> That's the Sith for you. They encourage treachery and competition. So their subordinates hate and fear anyone better than themselves, will conspire to eliminate them. Like in an RTS game where it's never a good idea to be doing obviously better than everyone else, lest the other players all gang up on you.  
> 
> That's also, in my opinion, one reason they lost the original wars with the Jedi.  Sith are individually more powerful, but they can't team up. This allows Jedi teams to collaborate and eliminate Sith , sometimes with the help of competing Sith. That's why there's the Rule of Two, and that's why the Sith were in hiding for a thousand years instead of ruling the galaxy.


Indeed, also standard reminder that Social Darwinism was around before Darwin and he did not approve of it.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 4, episode 18: Crisis on Naboo*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Windu is briefing a team of Jedi on Palpatine's security during "the Festival of Light". Mostly it's lotsa guards and a ray-shield bubble around Palps for when he's giving his speech. However, they've had no contacts with Kenobi, so they don't know what the ennemy is planning. speaking of which, Eval and the hunters take out a bunch of workers inside of a speeder hangar so that they can have a last meeting before the plan starts. Also present is Count Dooku who I guess is here to supervise things personally. So much for putting Bane in charge. However, once he's done a little speech, Bane hands out small devices that will track their position and give them precise instructions. Obi-Wan still wants to know the overall plan, of course. Wasn't bane sup^posed to brief them on the way? The mushroom-man will breach the shield, Morallo will be the getaway driver, Embo and the acrobat will pose as bodyguards for the chancellor and "Hardeen" will be their eye in the sky, with a sniper rifle. Bane then places a device on the table that projects four holograms of Senate guards. These "shadow-holograms" serve as disguises and can apparently still exist when the people wearing them are away from the thing projecting them, because magic. I think that's the "holographic disguise matrix" the pork-man who died in the Box had invented. Cad then declares radio silence and sends everyone on their way. Before he leaves, Dooku tells him to watch Hardeen, as he doesn't trust him. Bane simply says he's watching them all.

Palpatine arrives on Naboo, accompanied by Mass Amedda, Mace Windu, Anakin and Ahsoka and some assorted clones. He is greeted by the queen of naboo, PAdmé, Bail Organa and Sio Bibble, advisor to the queen, whose name I only remember because of _Darths & Droids_. Hmm, I wonder if that's a nod. Probably not, this show was doing prequel memes before it was a thing. Palps is glad to be home, but he thinks all the security is overkill, brushing aside MAce's insistence that it really is not. Anakin muses to PAdmé that the crowd makes an attack difficult during the ceremony, so he thinks they'll be ambushed in the Palace. When trouble comes, Ahsoka will be chraged with bringing Padmé, the queen and her staff to safety while he saves the day. Obi-wan got to his position, a balcony overseeing the plaza where the ceremony is going to happen (itself some kind of balcony overlooking a lake), and calls Windu. He tells him what he knows, including that his sniper rifle is loaded with stun blasts to knock the Chancellor out. Obi-wan will report everything he sees to Mace, who he advises to have the identity of all the guards double-checked.

Later that evening Palpatine walks in to the plaza where a bunch of Naboo bigwigs and Senator applaud him. Among the foreigners is a Neimoidian (Lott Dod?), Must have been an awkward day for him, what with the Trade Federation's recent invasion. Once he's in, Skywalker has the ray-shield bubble form. The chancellor starts his speech by mentionning that Naboo joined the Republic 847 years prior which I'm sure contradicts half a dozen novels, two comic strips and one cereal box puzzle game. Ah and turns out the Neimodidian is Cad Bane (did he abduct somebody who was meant to be there?) whose disguise glitches out in the middle of the speech but nobody notices, somehow. While he's perorating, the camera pans to two guards crossing paths under him. One asks the others' identification number, and satisfied with the answer let the other go. The guard who asked? The mushroom-man bounty hunter. this is *after* they increased security from the *already* increased security after... I think that was the droid-bombing attack or maybe Bane's take over of the senate? Point is, these guys are bozos. Palpatine starts a firework show (that inculdes the movies' opening scroll, what the hell, that's amazing!) while the mushroom-man gets near a shield generator.

Obi-wan spots him (he spots his hologram glitching, so that's in-universe, not just for the audience's eyes only. Worse disguises ever) and warns Windu who tells Anakin. The hunter reaches through and touches the generator, making it explode, for some reason. Windu orders two guards to escort the unconscious Chancellor to a speeder. Huh, do it yourself, you moron, you know some of the guards are fake! Ahsoka takes her charges away from the action, while Anakin leaps at the hunter. who surprises him with an electric attack that knocks him out. The mushroom man flies away on a jetpack, but is shot down by Kenobi... whose blaster only ahd one shot in it. How did you not check that? Windu starts looking for bane, while Embo and the acrobat put a disguise on Palpatine, making him look like a downed guard, the acrobat now looking like Palpatine. They head for the speeder while Bane, still disguised carries away the Chancellor. Windu wakes Skywalker up just as Kenobi warns them that the guard escorting "the Chancellor" is a bounty hunter. Faced with two lightsabers to his face, Embo wisely surrenders without a fight. The acrobat reveals herself by punching Anakin and gets her hand chopped off for it. What did she think would happen?

Eval shows up to pick Bane and Palpatine up and they escape right under Windu and Skywalker's noses. Obi-wan steals a speeder and follows them to the rendez-vous point, while transmitting his location to the Jedi. Once there, Eval starts gloating that his plan worked to perfection. Half your team downed and one additional sixth missing is perfection to you? Bane and him start arguing about who desrves the credi, but Bane is suspicious that Dooku is nowhere to be found even though he' was supposed to meet them there. "hardeen" shows up, apparently early on schedule. Bane decides Dooku double-crossed them, which panics Eval. The Duro thinks he can delivers Palpatine to somebody else for money (the Hutts, mayhaps?). So Kenobi draws a gun on him. They fight for a bit until the Jedi overpowers them both. The cavalry arrives a bit late to take the hunters away. Bane overhears Windu call "Hardeen" Obi-Wan and he starts trading insults with him, promising to kill him in the future.

Mission accomplished! The day after that, the Republic troops are sent back to Coruscant on Palpatin's orders, he's content with Anakin as security, now that the threat has passed. Anakin teels Obi-Wan he could have helped him, IF the Council had trusted him. Obi-wan tells him it was his decision to hide it from him, because Dooku would believe he was dead if Anakin did too. HOW!? WHY!? Obi-Wan makes a half-assed apology, which just make sAnakin angrier. "How many other lies have I been told by the Council!?" Ah, I figured this meme would come form this arc. But, also, you're one to talk mister secret-wife/I-once-slaughtered-an-entire-tribe, heh? He concludes by telling Obi-Wan that maybe HE doesn't know the whole truth, easier. Later, Obi-Wan is looking over holograms of Theed while waiting to get his old face back. Windu can sense something is bothering him (but not that the two guards standing next to him are of the wrong species, apparently). Anakin's last remark is bothering him and he decides to check one last thing before leaving. Adn that's the case the rifle Bane gave him came in. He finds a communication device in it and realizes Dooku listened in to him warning Windu!

Cut to the Palace at night, PAlpatine is planning to leave as soon as dinner is done. He "assumes" the plan to disguise Obi-wan was Anakin's idea. It wasn't? Oh, and Palpatine always thought the Jedi worked as a team... tsk, tsk, tsk. Aaaaaand Dooku is waiting for them in the dinner room. Dooku and Anakin exchanges the standard threats. Anakin destroys a couple magnaguards, but a third one captures the chancellor while he's off fighting the Sith Lord (the other one). Dooku fights defensively and starts lobbing random stuff at Anakin, eventually resorting to using ana rmchair as an impromptu shield (it's stopping a lightsaber thrust! What's it made of?). While Sidious starts smirking (hey, the droid did let him go when he said "unhand me!") The fight progresses to the corridors, where Skywalker gets dooku on his back and (regular-)strangling him with his metal hand, while scary music starts playing, because throttling is so much more evilthan hacking and slashing. Dooku fries him and stands back up. Obi-wan gets there. Anakin jumps inside Dooku's ship just as he's about to take off with the Chancellor. While the count is occupied, Obi-wan gets Palpatine back to the ground. Dooku throws Anakin off his ship and compliments Obi-wan, calling him a worthy adversary, but denies that title to Anakin.

Padmé and some Naboo Guards get there. Palpatine thanks the Jedi and congratulates them on their heroics "We specialize in heroics, Chancellor", well that's truer than what you'll say in RotS, Ben. Anakin vows that no harm will ever come to Palpatine as long as he leaves. Hey, that's a promise he upheld! With a 0.0005% margin of error. Palpatine "shudders tot hink where the Galaxy would be without the Jedi." Cute. End of the episode.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Well it was better than the Box, and I have to admit Dooku's attack did surprise me, despite it being foreshadowed early on.

So, that was the grand plan, heh? The switecherhoo hardly seemed necessary and they were lucky that the inexplicable explosion knocked their target unconscious so they didn't need the stunning shot. Why did the box have a room full of deadly gaz and one full of lightsabers-like things on moving plates? That didn't match anything there! Also, did Dooku take out the waiting staff and the guest of that banquet, or did Palps lie to Anakin to get there? Because one would be kind of hilarious and the second kind of foolhardy. (I know this was just to emulate Vader's msot awkward lunch ever at Cloud City.)

There doesn't seem to be a payoff to Obi-Wan and Cad Bane's relationship. Bane's seeming newfound respect for him didn't matter and he didn't "keep an eye on him" like he said he would at the beginning of the episode.

Points for Anakin's growing resentment of the Jedi Order/Council, with Palpatine subtly egging him on.

I like Anakin and Dooku's fight. The last one was very much one-sided in Dooku's favour (even if Ani got a few punches in), this one has Anakin dominating most of the fight (even if Dooku is only really trying to leave), showcasing Anakin's growing power. It's very nicely done. Still, when Anakin tells Dooku in RotS that his pwoers have doubled since their last fight, this becoming an ever-shrinking timeframe.


Next up: *Massacre*. Sounds spicy.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 19: Massacre*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Ventress lands on Dathomir, greeted by five identical Nightsisters wielding laser-bows. She goes to Mother Talzin, who hugs her, and says she's been in hiding "re-evaluating". Cool, care to tell us what hindsight you came up with _after an entire season's worth of pondering?_ Seriously, I checked, all of this season took place between this arc and last season's finale. Where has she been!? Ventress says she has nothing left, but Talzin says she's welcome to give up the ways of the Sith and return to the Sisterhood. ISn't that what happened last time, though? Talzin says she shall fullfill her destiny, be loyal to no-one but her sisters and herself and shall no longer be ordered around. Ventress fails to realize that Talzin's litlle speech there consisted almost entirely of ordering her to do stuff.

Meanwhile, Grievous is summoned on Serenno by Dooku. It's time to take revenge on Ventress and Talzin as the count has learned that his former apprentice is back on Dathomir. How the **** did he figure that out? Dooku orders Grievous to wipe all the witches out ; he also says their illusions do not frighten him. Sure chief, that's why you're sending not this loser to do the work and instead are going there yourself, right? Grievous leaves with a pretty impressive fleet by the standards of this show.

On Dathomir, Ventress is... baptized? inot the Nightsister's order by bathing in a black oily substance while pledging herself entirely to "the sisters, the magicks and the Old Ways" whatever those ways are. The ceremony involves her being surrounded by the same green mist as with Savage, but it doesn't go inside her and she doesn't enflate, so I guess it's different even though her eyes roll backward and there's the same bell-like sound. Talzin calls for a party. Said party consistes of sitting around a campfire while a couple sisters dance to inaudible music (drugs? I'm guessing drugs). One sister says she's privileged to be Assajj's sister. Why? You've just met her. The party is cut short by the arrival of the droid army who starts bombing them. They do so without even trying to collapse their temple, mind, so they just announced their presence and wasted the element of surprise. Grievous is a tool, is what I'm getting at.

Grievous lands on a nearby clearing and sends his troops ahead while he stays in his command ship. Talzin organizes the denfenses while ventress laments that "so many are going to die" because of her. Talzin says there's no time to regret instead of pointing out that they're mostly there because of her, not Ventress. Ventress can tell Grievous is leading the attack. Another bombing run makes one pillar of the temple crumble on the Nightsister who said a sentence to Ventress that one time. She tells her to lead them to victory. The droids porper arrive and the battle begins. Talzin floats up, summons a shield around her and starts throwing green lightning at them. Does that mean that if you got Talzin, the Son and Palpatine to work to gether they could make lightning of any color? Also her lightning immediately goes from attacking one target to another, which, while a correct depiction of electrical arcs (at least better than usual), feels wrong in _Star Wars_. It looks like a tower defense game. If Ventress can hold out a little longer she can build a second Talzin closer to the droids spawn point!

Ventress tell Talzin they'll need an army, and she replies she can get one from "Old Daka", Ah yes, More Dakka is always good. Ventress leads her Sister ut of cover into a charge against the assault-rifle wielding enemy that doesn't end in a complete slaughter only because the B1s are SW's worst shots in all eras. The sisters with bows do get on treetop to have the advantage of high ground while the others engage in mêlée and oblitarate their opponents. informed of Ventress's whereabouts, grievous deploys the "defoliator tanks". Are they re-using a previous Separatist weapon? Is that legal?

Meanwhile, Talzin goes back to the temple, orders her attendants to bring her a "small metallic sphere" from her chambers in the "Hidden Cave" then proceeds to magically open a path through a wall (that closes behind her) and enters said cave. Inside is Daka, the oldest and wisest of them, surrounded by statues of her own face. Does she like, live there all alone? What the hell? Talzin beseeches her to raise an undead army to help them defend. She starts chanting in front of an orb that starts emitting the usual green mist. It goes through the (illusory) wall into the surrounding forest and penetrates the weird, huge "fruits" that hang from the trees. These pods don't actually contain fruits but mummified Nightsisters who spring into action with a cheesy scream. Back at the battle, the droids fire the defoliator at the Sisters who, as far as I can tell, haven't suffered a single casualty since the battle proper began. It's significantly less powerful than I remember, only creating a localized explosion that takes out one unlucky Nightsister. The Nightzombies get there and starts just swatting away the droids like flies. Ventress takes over a tank and uses it to destroy the defoliator.

Daka reports Ventress's progress to Talzin, just as her attendants bring her the sphere she ordered. She disintegrates it to reveal a big lock of white hair inside. Dooku's hair. She drops it inside a cauldron of green mist that  I guess was already there for some reason and it morphs into a statuette of Dooku. She starts melting the statuette's face and the real Dooku on Serenno starts groaning in pain as huge warts appear on his face. He immediately clocks it as the witche's doing. Bitch you could do that THE ENTIRE TIME?! What was the point of using Savage as a mole! You could have killed him any time you wanted! What the hell!? Ventress's army powers through Grievous's almost unopposed (she even does a crowd run) until she meets face to face with the cyborg general. Ventress challenges him to single combat: if she wins his army leaves, if he wins, the Nightsister surrenders. Girl, you're winning why are you taking this risks. He accepts, boasting that he's always been a better warrior than her. Bitch, you lost to the Gungans!

The fight goes on for a little while until Ventress cuts off two of the general's hands and throws him to the ground. He orders his droids to kill her, but she survives despite being fired on from multiple angles. The battle starts again. Ventress is hit on the shoulder, but Grievous can't finish her off because he's swarmed by some Nightzombies. A random Nightsister helps Ventress get away but she's shot dead. She tells Ventress to run away as "Doom is upon [them]". Is it? It looks like you're winning. Ventress runs for the hills. Grievous shakes off his attackers (apparently they're the kind of zombies that die again when you hurt them). Meanwhile Talzin starts telepathically taunting Dooku, who calls Grievous and tells him to kill Talzin before he dies and that he should follow the green mist since that's the witches' magic. I think that last tidbit should have been in the mission breifing, Count. Grievous, taking his sweet time, orders his troops to follow him to their new target. Wasn't Mother Talzin always their target?

Dooku's chest erupts in green mist that takes the shape of Talzin. She tells him to order his troops to retreat but he refuses (his eyes noticeably yellow), so she intensifies the torture. Gotta hand it to the episode, that's a creepy exchanges and dooku continues to be the most badass character in the show. Despite resistance by the nightsisters, Grievous enters the temple, blasts the (fake?) wall away and stabs Daka. All the zombies die again as the droids slaughter the remaining Nightsisters. Grievous hacks aways at Talzin but she turns into mist and flies away. On Serenno, Dooku vomits some green mist and his warts vanish.

In the forest, Ventress collapses and is joined by Talzin in mist-form. Talzin says their destinies are linked but she must follow her own past and she vanishes as Ventress begs her not to leave her. This isn't going to help her abandonment issues, is it?


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

well, this isn't a great episode. I don't really care about the Nightsisters, some the episode didn't get any pathos from me by killing them. Especially since we didn't actually know any of them. The Nightborthers are going to be more free than they were in a long time and, assuming the youngest Sisters survived to be adopted, they might even keep their civilisation going.

I don't understand why thei episode did not start with ventress already living among the Sisters since the end of season 3. It would not have changed anything of note, but made the beginning make more sense. Seriously, where was she?

Talzin is really starting to get on my nerves. Why does she want Dooku dead? why did she not do it yet shen she obviously could all this time? How many more powers is she going to pull out of her ass. Is she immortal or what? Why is she helping both Ventress and Savage who are at odds with one another? The more she appears, the less she feels like a character and the more like a do-anything plot device.

I liked the zombies even less than last time. their only real purpose was to provide Grievous a trail to Talzin.

Speaking of which, he really can't have a clean win, can he? He was losing the battle until he arbitrarily didn't and straight up lost he duel with Ventress. He really has no threatening presence anymore (unless he ends up fighting Padmé or a civilian). His fight with her also would have had much more impact if they'd had an actual relationship until then. Before this they only shared one scene on Kamino where she weirdly flirted with him.

Ideally the two should have been shown working together as (bitter?) rivals during the prvious seasons, he would have been winning the battle until Ventress suggested the duel as a desperate move, that he'd accept out of pride. Then he'd have beaten her, concluding their rivalry and giving him back some credibility, forcing her to flee.

Edit: Also, looks like ventress is all out of authority figures to make decisions for her. In a way, she's finally free, even if even that freedom did not come from her actions or of her own volition.


Next up: *Bounty*. By the name it sounds like we'll be checking up on Boba and/or Aurra Sing. Weird, I'd have asusmed we be seeing Savage seek Maul, then one episode of Maul attacking the Jedi and him being beaten as the season finale.

----------


## pendell

So who's the protaganist here? Ventress?  I thought she was a Sith.  So is this an intramural dark side competition between Dooku and the Nightsisters, in which the Republic is not involved? Why should I be invested in this episode?  Doesn't seem like anyone to root for. 

I'm still not following how the nightsisters lost, exactly?   Why didn't they just kill dooku outright? Between being able to animate an undead legion and throw lightning, it seemed like they had this episode in the bag until suddenly, they didn't. 

I can't recall Palpatine as a Necromancer.  So why aren't the nightsisters the Big Bads in the galaxy? They seem more powerful than he. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## hamishspence

> So who's the protaganist here? Ventress?  I thought she was a Sith.  So is this an intramural dark side competition between Dooku and the Nightsisters, in which the Republic is not involved? Why should I be invested in this episode?  Doesn't seem like anyone to root for.


Ventress was a _would-be_ Sith Apprentice before Palpatine figured it out and ordered Dooku to kill her.

However, 

*Spoiler*
Show

she gets less and less villainous over time - frequently ending up allied with the protagonists.

"Villain Journey to Anti-Hero" so to speak.

----------


## Fyraltari

> So who's the protaganist here? Ventress?


Yes.



> I thought she was a Sith.


Was.



> So is this an intramural dark side competition between Dooku and the Nightsisters, in which the Republic is not involved?


While villainous, the Nightsisters don't seem to be affiliated with the Dark Side in this continuity. That's their one good element of worldbuilding so far.



> Why should I be invested in this episode?  Doesn't seem like anyone to root for.


Villainous protagonists can be done right. This isn't an example of that, but it's no the concept's fault. If ssaj's relationship with _anybody_ here had been more fleshed out, it could have made for a good episode. Still should lose the zombies, though.



> I'm still not following how the nightsisters lost, exactly? Why didn't they just kill dooku outright? Between being able to animate an undead legion and throw lightning, it seemed like they had this episode in the bag until suddenly, they didn't.


Ran out of plot armour.





> I can't recall Palpatine as a Necromancer.  So why aren't the nightsisters the Big Bads in the galaxy? They seem more powerful than he.


Pretty sure Sith necromancy is a thing in both E.U.

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## Grim Portent

The Nightsister's powers are a variation of the Dark Side of the Force, just a very different style from that practised by the Sith.

It's more ritualistic and sorcerous, having more in common with Sith Alchemy than with conventional force powers, but it is still rooted in the Force.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The Nightsister's powers are a variation of the Dark Side of the Force, just a very different style from that practised by the Sith.
> 
> It's more ritualistic and sorcerous, having more in common with Sith Alchemy than with conventional force powers, but it is still rooted in the Force.


Are you sure that's not just the _Legends_ continuity? The Nightsisters who went to serenno with ventress seemed unable to sense Dooku when she could.

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## Keltest

> Are you sure that's not just the _Legends_ continuity? The Nightsisters who went to serenno with ventress seemed unable to sense Dooku when she could.


At least a few works in the current canon indicate that Dathomiri witch magic is something that can nominally be learned and used by other force users, except for the fact that the Nightsisters really, really dont want to share.

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## Mechalich

> At least a few works in the current canon indicate that Dathomiri witch magic is something that can nominally be learned and used by other force users, except for the fact that the Nightsisters really, really dont want to share.


It's also that it is generally very difficult to adopt an entirely different belief system. The different approaches to learning how to use the Force aren't just different meditation and breathing techniques, they're whole religious paradigms and it's very challenging to accept, absorb, and integrate different faiths while not getting tripped up by unconscious biases.

There is also the very strong justification for small Force traditions with unique techniques to hoard their knowledge in order to maintain exclusivity with regard to certain capabilities that means other, more powerful, factions will always need them. In fact, a big part of what happens in Massacre is that Dooku decides he no longer needs the capabilities Talzin and the Nightsisters can provide and decides its extermination time (the episode admittedly doesn't effectively portray Nightsister casualties, but their off-screen losses are massive).




> I can't recall Palpatine as a Necromancer. So why aren't the nightsisters the Big Bads in the galaxy? They seem more powerful than he.


Palpatine actually gets up to all kinds of Sith Alchemy, but it's mostly in Legends (there's hints of it in the Disney canon, such as his fascination with the Zillo Beast). And of course, he does canonically resurrect himself from the dead in both continuities and in the Disney canon makes extremely powerful distorted clones of himself.

As to the power of the Nightsisters, well there's a couple of things. First, the group is ethnically derived. You have to be a Dathomirian to become a Nightsister, and while the Force sensitivity frequency of this group is extremely high, their absolute numbers are quite small - the population of Dathomir is listed in single-digit thousands in both versions of canon. So there's simply no way for the group to expand to the kind of numbers necessary to dominate the galaxy.

Second, and actually more important, _rulership_ is not what the Nightsisters want. It's simply not part of their ideology. This is a critical thing about the Jedi & Sith. The Jedi believe it is their mission to protect and defend the galaxy. The Sith, the dark side of the same coin, believe it is their mission to dominate and enslave it. other Force Traditions have less cosmic goals and as a result their dark halves - and basically every force tradition has some dark members - have less brutal ambitions. The Nightsisters, mostly seem to want money and respect, which they get by serving as terrifying mercenaries. Galactic conquest doesn't interest them.

----------


## Grim Portent

> Are you sure that's not just the _Legends_ continuity? The Nightsisters who went to serenno with ventress seemed unable to sense Dooku when she could.


My understanding is that because they tap into the force in such an unusual way even when a Nightsister is force sensitive she may not have access to what we would consider basic force abilities because they never learn them.

The green mist they use in their magick is called ichor, and it's a phenomenon that might be unique to Dathomir, but it's basically a physical manifestation of the dark side of the force which Dathomir is soaked with. While it never gets explained much in the show it has been explored a bit in other material.

----------


## Fyraltari

Yeah, but that's the point: If they tap into the Force differently, then it's not the Dark Side of the Force. It's a different aspect of the Force.

----------


## Grim Portent

It's still the Dark Side, it's just not drawn on and used the way Sith and Jedi are familiar with. The Sith don't have a monopoly on the dark side of the Force.

It's a different force tradition, but it's still a dark side force tradition like the Sith practices are, much like how there are light side traditions that are distinct from the Jedi ways.

----------


## Fyraltari

> It's still the Dark Side, it's just not drawn on and used the way Sith and Jedi are familiar with. The Sith don't have a monopoly on the dark side of the Force.
> 
> It's a different force tradition, but it's still a dark side force tradition like the Sith practices are, much like how there are light side traditions that are distinct from the Jedi ways.


Meh, I much prefer the idea that the Light/Dark Side dichotomy is a Jedi (and therefore Sith) concept and the other people who draw on the Force (and have a different name for it) don't fall along those lines.

----------


## Keltest

> Meh, I much prefer the idea that the Light/Dark Side dichotomy is a Jedi (and therefore Sith) concept and the other people who draw on the Force (and have a different name for it) don't fall along those lines.


Selfishness and malice are hardly unique to the Sith or Jedi though, and the Dark Side becomes both a non-threat and completely inexplicable if other force traditions can tap into it without the danger of corruption just because they dont call it out as being explicitly bad.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Selfishness and malice are hardly unique to the Sith or Jedi though, and the Dark Side becomes both a non-threat and completely inexplicable if other force traditions can tap into it without the danger of corruption just because they dont call it out as being explicitly bad.


The idea isn't that they tap into it, though. They tap into something different in the Force.

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## Grim Portent

An interesting quirk of the Nightsisters magick is that it only draws on the Dark Side, it is incapable of being used in a 'Light Side' manner, because it is based around the use of a literal physical manifestation of the Dark Side.

As far as Dathomir is concerned the Light Side is completely irrelevant, there is only the Dark.

Exactly how ichor itself formed and how Dathomir came to be so steeped in darkness is unexplained to my knowledge, but it is a place that was able to birth and sustain a tradition of Dark Side practitioners alien to the 'normal' practices of the Jedi and Sith. There are only a few planets like that in the whole Galaxy, some Light and some Dark, some in the middle.

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## Peelee

> Meh, I much prefer the idea that the Light/Dark Side dichotomy is a Jedi (and therefore Sith) concept and the other people who draw on the Force (and have a different name for it) don't fall along those lines.


I agree _so_ much. Other Force traditions that don't constrain themselves by getting pigeonholed into Jedi/Sith religion and philosophies makes for a much better universe with much better stories.

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## Fyraltari

> I agree _so_ much. Other Force traditions that don't constrain themselves by getting pigeonholed into Jedi/Sith religion and philosophies makes for a much better universe with much better stories.


I don't know about better stories, but it makes for a bigger and more colourful universe for sure.

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## Mechalich

That the Force has two sides is a fundamental property of its existence, not a philosophical opinion by the Jedi or any other Force tradition. Its dualistic nature is quite logical, actually, given the dualistic structure of many other physical forces, such as electromagnetism (ie. positive and negative charge). The light side is enthalpic, and the dark side is entropic, making them fundamentally opposed on a basic physics level (note the existence of the Force allows for the violation of the conservation of energy, which is necessary for certain things in Star Wars to work). 

Now, the point where this stops being fantastical physics and starts being in-universe philosophy is that the Jedi and Sith equate the light side (or Ashla) with good and the dark side (or Bogan) with evil. That's an act of labeling imposed by sapient beings, not anything intrinsic to the Force itself.

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## Peelee

> That the Force has two sides is a fundamental property of its existence, not a philosophical opinion by the Jedi or any other Force tradition.


.... No? Light Side users do not repel dark side users. There is nothing to suggest it is polar except for Jedi or Sith philosophy. You could just as easily have compared it to gravitational fields, which have no polarity, but that wouldn't have been good for your argument like electromagnetic fields are.

Hell, let's go see what Wookieepedia has to say about it:


> the Force was viewed in many different aspects, including, but not limited to, the Light side of the Force, the Dark side of the Force, the Living Force, the Unifying Force, the Cosmic Force and the Physical Force. The first two aspects were concerned with the moral compass of the Force, as manifested by the conduct and emotions of living creatures who were themselves part of the fabric of the Force. The light side of the Force was the facet aligned with compassion, selflessness, self-knowledge and enlightenment, healing, mercy and benevolence, while the dark side of the Force was aligned with hatred, fear, covetousness, anger, aggression, jealousy and malevolence.


That doesnt speak of anu inherent physical polarity. That speaks of a socially constructed moral polarity.

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## Keltest

> .... No? Light Side users do not repel dark side users.


Don't they? We've seen Light Side users who are strongly in tune with the force feel physical sensation when extreme Dark Side acts occur (ie Alderaan), and Yoda was able to repell Force Lightning, one of the ultimate Dark Side techniques. I understand you were being somewhat facetious here, but the two sides do seem to be able to affect each other in a way we have not seen two users of the same type of force do.

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## Fyraltari

> That the Force has two sides is a fundamental property of its existence, not a philosophical opinion by the Jedi or any other Force tradition.


...
According to the Jedi...



> The light side is enthalpic, and the dark side is entropic, making them fundamentally opposed on a basic physics level


First, source.
Second, since when is enthalpy the opposite of entropy?




> Its dualistic nature is quite logical, actually, given the dualistic structure of many other physical forces, such as electromagnetism (ie. positive and negative charge).


And, that's the core of the issue: the Force is not a materialistic thing. It is mystical, supernatural in nature. Reducing it to something that can be constricted within definitions and mechanical, deterministic behaviours is doing it a disservice, at least in my opinion.

It should be explicitly an unsolvable mystery, forever beyond the reach of comprehension, something that can only be approached and studied, but never fully understood.

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## Peelee

> Don't they? We've seen Light Side users who are strongly in tune with the force feel physical sensation when extreme Dark Side acts occur (ie Alderaan), and Yoda was able to repell Force Lightning, one of the ultimate Dark Side techniques. I understand you were being somewhat facetious here, but the two sides do seem to be able to affect each other in a way we have not seen two users of the same type of force do.


_Any_ trained force user would feel physical sensation when billions of lives are suddenly and drastically altered, based off what we're told about the Force in the very first movie. The Force wasn't even a factor in destroying Alderaan! Are you claiming now that literally any act regardless is aligned with either the light side or dark side of the Force?

Further, a _lightsaber_ can repel Force Lightning. As with the first example, there is no indication of anything light side or dark side about this other than your own insistence that there is.

ETA: Also, everything Fyraltari said.

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## Keltest

> _Any_ trained force user would feel physical sensation when billions of lives are suddenly and drastically altered, based off what we're told about the Force in the very first movie. The Force wasn't even a factor in destroying Alderaan! Are you claiming now that literally any act regardless is aligned with either the light side or dark side of the Force?


 Yes. Thats kind of one of the fundamental aspects of the Force. The whole point of that scene was to establish that the destruction of a planet was an act that resonated in the Force.




> Further, a _lightsaber_ can repel Force Lightning. As with the first example, there is no indication of anything light side or dark side about this other than your own insistence that there is.


A lightsaber _blocks_ Force Lightning, the same as any other solid (more or less) object. Yoda actively contains and then repels the lightning back at its source, without any physical barrier.

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## Fyraltari

> Yes. Thats kind of one of the fundamental aspects of the Force. The whole point of that scene was to establish that the destruction of a planet was an act that resonated in the Force.


And this has to do with the the light/dark side dichotomy how?






> A lightsaber _blocks_ Force Lightning, the same as any other solid (more or less) object. Yoda actively contains and then repels the lightning back at its source, without any physical barrier.


Yoda also stops a falling stone column without touching it, yet I don't think the Light Side of the force is antithetical to stone.

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## Peelee

> Yes. Thats kind of one of the fundamental aspects of the Force. The whole point of that scene was to establish that the destruction of a planet was an act that resonated in the Force.





> [The Force is] an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.





> I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.


Those two go together pretty seamlessly. Killing on a massive scale made ripples in the Force. However, in no way is this indicated to be a "Dark Side action" or a "Light Side action" any morr than you can tell if the ripples in a pond were caused by me dumping nuclear waste or a really big rock. You know there is a disturbance and you know it was caused by a big object shattering the peace. But come on, the argument as presented makes it like the Emperor woildnt feel it solely because he was evil. Which is preposterous. Kenobi explains it perfectly well - an energy field created by all life that permeates the Galaxy will have a disturbance when a great amount of that life is snuffed out all at once. This hardly proves anything beyond "trained Force users can feel large effects through the Force". 



> A lightsaber _blocks_ Force Lightning, the same as any other solid (more or less) object. Yoda actively contains and then repels the lightning back at its source, without any physical barrier.


And Jedi could use Force Lightning drawing from the Light Side of the Force, as in The Joiner Wars trilogy, which was canon at the same time as that movie.

Because as much as video games love to push it, stuff like "force choke" isn't a dakr side power. It's using the Force in ways that anyone trained in it can to do a bad thing. You're using telekinesis which doesn't care if it's being used to crush a windpipe or crush a tennis ball.

"Dark side powers" is bunk.



> Yoda also stops a falling stone column without touching it, yet I don't think the Light Side of the force is antithetical to stone.


He also repels the column, I feel the need to point out. Apparently that's important somehow.

----------


## Mechalich

You know, I don't understand why people are supposed to something in a fictional universe being a certain way. The Force has a set of known traits, and having a light and dark side is among those traits. Both Word of God and extensive sources from both versions of canon and every publishing era have stated this quite flatly. We, the audience, know how the Force functions.

That doesn't mean that people in-universe possess the same knowledge, and in fact in the case of Star Wars its quite clear that the knowledge available even to the best informed group - which is the Jedi, derived from both Word of God and them simply being the largest and longest lasting group with the greatest exposure to all possible theories - is distinctly incomplete and that the Force functions in such a way as to resist and obscure study via the scientific method. As a result there are many competing belief systems in-universe. Yes, all of these are to some degree incomplete and/or wrong, but that's not a bad thing. A belief system is a model, and model's can provide useful results even when the underlying assumptions behind the model are incorrect, some of the terms are misplaced, or there are other errors.

This has been done for countless phenomena throughout human history, including fundamental forces like gravity and electromagnetism. Why should it be different in Star Wars?

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## Peelee

> The Force has a set of known traits, and having a light and dark side is among those traits. Both Word of God and extensive sources from both versions of canon and every publishing era have stated this quite flatly.


Word of God changed as often as the sun rose and the old canon explicitly went _against_ what you're claiming. New canon has not confirmed in either direction. If you think it has, well, you've been asked for a source and have yet to provide, so I'll just ask again.

ETA: Actually, it looks like current canon does stipulate this. At which point my argument simply reverts to "...and that is stupid," and goes into the same file as "suddenly Palpatine returned!", "I am all the Sith/I am all the Jedi", some droids being baby spaceships, Poe Dameron in general, and all sorts of other things about/in Star Wars that are painfully dumb.

----------


## Aeson

> Second, since when is enthalpy the opposite of entropy?


Since some random person who no more than half-remembered their high  school chemistry class was permitted to author a book, probably.


With  regards to the discussion about whether or not the duality of the Force  is an inherent aspect of the Force or merely something ascribed to it, I don't much care one way or the  other, but I strongly dislike the way that powers have been assigned a  Light or Dark Side affinity. There is nothing obviously inherently evil  about a power like Force Lightning unless the metaphysics say that you  can only manifest it for the purpose of inflicting gratuitous pain upon  another or something like that - even if only a true master of it can safely manifest it  outside of strictly-controlled environs, that just makes doing so  reprehensibly reckless or perhaps demonstrative of a callous disregard  for the health and well-being of those around you, which says far more about your morality than anything intrinsic to the power - and if the  metaphysics do say that you have to mean to hurt someone in order to  manifest it then it's hard to see where the temptation to use or even  learn the ability is for anyone who isn't already in a pretty dark  place. Something like the Jedi Mind Trick, though? A power like that is  an obvious "gateway drug" to get someone started on a morally-corrosive  path - it pretty clearly offers an easy, convenient path to personal  gratification and gain in at least some scenarios; it doesn't  necessarily immediately confront the person who abuses the power with  the harm that they're doing the way that abusing something like Force  lightning would; there's at least one obvious comforting lie ("if they _really_  didn't want to do it then they'd have resisted the Mind Trick") you  could tell yourself if your conscience gives you trouble; it's a power  that's very hard to call morally acceptable except in extremis and yet  also a power where it's very easy to see how you could rationalize  abusing it in minor ways that allow moral decay to creep in and take  hold; in short, it's exactly the sort of power for which a slippery  slope-type argument is most applicable.

Force Lightning might be  more flashy and Force Choke may be Vader's signature ability, but if  there's a power in the movies that's a more thematic fit for the  seductive, easy path that Yoda says the Dark Side offers than the Jedi  Mind Trick then I don't know it.

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## Keltest

> Since some random person who no more than half-remembered their high  school chemistry class was permitted to author a book, probably.
> 
> 
> With  regards to the discussion about whether or not the duality of the Force  is an inherent aspect of the Force or merely something ascribed to it, I don't much care one way or the  other, but I strongly dislike the way that powers have been assigned a  Light or Dark Side affinity. There is nothing obviously inherently evil  about a power like Force Lightning unless the metaphysics say that you  can only manifest it for the purpose of inflicting gratuitous pain upon  another or something like that - even if only a true master of it can safely manifest it  outside of strictly-controlled environs, that just makes doing so  reprehensibly reckless or perhaps demonstrative of a callous disregard  for the health and well-being of those around you, which says far more about your morality than anything intrinsic to the power - and if the  metaphysics do say that you have to mean to hurt someone in order to  manifest it then it's hard to see where the temptation to use or even  learn the ability is for anyone who isn't already in a pretty dark  place. Something like the Jedi Mind Trick, though? A power like that is  an obvious "gateway drug" to get someone started on a morally-corrosive  path - it pretty clearly offers an easy, convenient path to personal  gratification and gain in at least some scenarios; it doesn't  necessarily immediately confront the person who abuses the power with  the harm that they're doing the way that abusing something like Force  lightning would; there's at least one obvious comforting lie ("if they _really_  didn't want to do it then they'd have resisted the Mind Trick") you  could tell yourself if your conscience gives you trouble; it's a power  that's very hard to call morally acceptable except in extremis and yet  also a power where it's very easy to see how you could rationalize  abusing it in minor ways that allow moral decay to creep in and take  hold; in short, it's exactly the sort of power for which a slippery  slope-type argument is most applicable.
> 
> Force Lightning might be  more flashy and Force Choke may be Vader's signature ability, but if  there's a power in the movies that's a more thematic fit for the  seductive, easy path that Yoda says the Dark Side offers than the Jedi  Mind Trick then I don't know it.


I mean the Jedi Mind Trick is, at its heart, just convincing somebody of something really well. You arent forcefully imposing your will on the world the way you do with a violent act of telekinesis or electrokinesis, and it only works on the "weak minded" who lack a strong will of their own. It doesnt strike me as particularly "seductive" or "easy" compared to just blasting the hapless stormtroopers with lightning or snapping their necks or something.

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## Aeson

> I mean the Jedi Mind Trick is, at its heart, just convincing somebody of something really well.


Oh, then it's okay to use the Mind Trick to get the salesman to shave another thousand dollars off the price of my new car because I'm just _convincing_ him he'll lose the sale otherwise. It's okay to use the Mind Trick to push that guy I'm playing cards against to raise the stakes just a bit more when I've got a very strong hand, because it's just _convincing_ him that I'm trying to bluff him. It's okay to use the Mind Trick to get the jeweler to just let me walk out of the store without paying for an expensive ring because I'm just _convincing_ them that they want to give me a gift. It's okay to use the Mind Trick to get my date to sleep with me even though she said no because I'm just _convincing_ her to change her mind.

Yes, I see absolutely no way in which the Jedi Mind Trick is even _possibly_ problematic if it's only "convincing" people really really well. Clearly it's okay because I'm just "convincing" people to do what I want, and no way could any of the examples I gave above even _possibly_ be construed as harmful or as an abuse of the power. No way at all that getting into the habit of attempting to use the Mind Trick on anyone I encounter while trying to get them to do something for me could possibly be wrong or abusive; after all, it's just me being really "convincing" and turning on the charm.

Also, the way it's presented in the films appears indistinguishable from magical mind domination to me; the people that the mind trick gets used on blindly repeat what they're told by the person who used the mind trick on them, which looks to me like it's going way, _way_ beyond merely "convincing" them of the rightness of the position held by the one who mind tricked them.




> it only works on the "weak minded" who lack a strong will of their own.


Yes, if they weren't weak-minded fools then this wouldn't work on them, so clearly they deserve to be victimized by my abuse of the Jedi Mind Trick. It's their own fault, really.

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## Fyraltari

> Word of God changed as often as the sun rose and the old canon explicitly went _against_ what you're claiming. New canon has not confirmed in either direction. If you think it has, well, you've been asked for a source and have yet to provide, so I'll just ask again.
> 
> ETA: Actually, it looks like current canon does stipulate this. At which point my argument simply reverts to "...and that is stupid," and goes into the same file as "suddenly Palpatine returned!", "I am all the Sith/I am all the Jedi", some droids being baby spaceships, Poe Dameron in general, and all sorts of other things about/in Star Wars that are painfully dumb.


Feh, I give it three years tops before they retcon it.

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## Peelee

> Feh, I give it three years tops before they retcon it.


No bet.  :Small Amused:

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## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 20 : Bounty*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

 We open on Assajj Ventress arriving on Tattooine aboard some civilian transport craft. I forgot, was she involved on the kidnapping of Jabba's son? She's got a snazzy new outfit, I dig it. She gets into Mos Esley's cantina, apparently set on drinking herself to unconsciousness. Some alien strats trying to flirt with her. She tells hi  to get lost, he grabs her wrist and she guts him dead with her saber. Sheesh, noboby likes a creep, but that's a tad overboard. Hmm, wonder if that's why everyone was so chill about Obi-Wan maiming a dude in ANH. The barman gives Ventress a drink paid for by two people at a table. A pink-purple skinned lady, called Latzurazi and Bossk. They explain that they're bounty hunters and that the guy she's just killed was on their team. Bossk asks whe she got lightsabers, she says she's stolen them. You know, I'd like to see a _Star Wars_ character who actually just found/stole/bought a lightsaber and isn't a Jedi or a Sith one day. Could be interesting. They offer her his spot on the team for their next job while threatening to turn her over if she refuses. She tentatively agrees.

They take her to a building (that Embo is leaving, having apparently declined to take part on this job) guarded by Dengar, who I will always remember as "the guy from ESB with toliet-paper on his head. Ventress meets the bounty hunter's leader: Boba Fett.
Okay I have three things to say:
1) How are these guys free? Did Boba and Bossk manage to escape during the riot at the beginning of the previous arc? Because if so, it sounds like Cad Bane's plan was even worse than I thought. And how is Embo out? He _just_ got arrested!
2) Did Boba get a growth spurt? He looks like he's sixteen, not twelve.
3) How dod they not know who Ventress is? She should be the most wanted woman in the galaxy, with both the Republic and the Separatists offering fortunes for her head.
Ventress finds the idea of a leader so young risible, and she refuses to give her name. She also says w
she doesn't take orders very well, especially from a kid. However, she admits she needs the money and the hunters still need a sixth member, so she's hired. So that's the team: Boba, Ventress, Bossk, Dengar, Latz and a droid named IC.

They fly to a space elevator on another planet and are welcomed by a alien of a species I don't know, called Major Rigosso. They are tasked to protect an underground tram carrying a very precious cargo. the nature of which they need not concern themselves with. Also, Dengar's head-covering are actually kind-of cool-looking when they cover his mouth. The recipient of the cargo is Rigosso's lord, Ultua Blank, who rules the planet with an iron fish. Must be hard to do. Also, if they fail, he'll have them killed. Boba asks why they can't just fly the cargo to its destination but the planet's atmosphere is "fully pressurized" (what?) so aerial travel isn't feasible. The elevators take the seventh of them to the undersurface. Rigosso explains he expects trouble from a group of marauders. Rigosso shows them a box, being loaded into the tram and tells them not to open it under any circumstance. They get in, with two additional soldiers and leave. None of them spots the group of masked silhouettes following them by riding giant bugs.

Rigosso, the two soldiers, IC and LAtz protec the cargo proper, Bossk and Boba are in the engine room and Assajj and Dengar take care of the train's tail. Dengar tries making small-talk with the new girl but she's not really interested. The marauders catch up with the train (what is up with _Star Wars_ and wildlife being as fast as high-tech vehicles?) and attack. Dengar and ventress puts up a good fight (Ventress doesn't draw her sabers, though, which I don't understand) but most of the assaillants get past them. Dengar calls Boba to tell him "we've got company." God, I hate that sentence. Boba doesn't know how many ennemies there are or whether they are on the train yet or still trying to catch up. Can't you be more precise, Dengar? The pirates split up to attack both groups at once. The hunters (and Rigosso) manage to kill or throw overboard several of them, but another fresh troop gets there. Latz uses her scarf (that is made of blades linked together) as some sort of chain-whip, Assajj finally draws her lightsabers and Dengar starts straight up planting bombs on his adversaries (what's with this show and useing explosives as mêlée weapons?). One of the attackers manages to push Dengar overboard, though.

Boba leaves the engine room (while Bossk is till fighting off opponents) to get to the cargo, he gets in to late to help the two soldiers who are thrown off the train too, but he kills several of the ninjas (the marauders are dressed up and fight like Hollywood-ninjas). He gets to the passenger car (where the cargo is) just as IC starts spinning around and shooting 360° killing several hostiles. Ventress is fighting alone on the rear, and even more ennemies are climbing aboard. She holds up, but she calls for help, for fear of being swarmed. Also the leader sees her using Force-push to get rid of a trio of fighters. Boba sends Bossk to help her out, but he's ambushed by several ninjas who blow dust in his eyes and push him out. The leader of the Marauders gets passed Ventress and reaches rigosso who orders LAtz and IC to take him out. He manages to disarm IC and get Latz to the ground, but when he plants some electrical device on the droid, he just rips it off, impressive. The leader manages to get Latz's scarf-blade entangled around IC and pushes him overboard, taking Latz with him.

He tells Rigosso he wants what's his, and kills the Major  with a knife throw before he's got time to replay "over my dead body." Smart. Boba gets rid of the last ninjas just as the leader enters the passenger car and they start fighting. They fighting ends up tipping the box over which opens and lets out a young woman who's not even tied up. Could she like, open it at any time? Boba tells her he'll protect her and she slaps him just as the leader kicks Boba in the face (again). Turns out the leader is her brother trying to rescue her. Also they are some grey-skinned but still human-looking aliens, different from Rigosso's species. Ventress gets there and tell the brother to step aside. He obviously refuses and trhrows a smoke bomb, which he uses to ambush Ventress and disarm her. She overpowers him, ultimately using the Force to pummel him into the walls and throw him to the floor.

Boba comes to and asks why the girl they're protecting is fighting them. In fairness to him he was hit on the head repeatedly like thrity seconds ago. Ventress states the obvious: she's on their side. Boba orders her to tie them and leaves. The prisoner laments she never asked to be taken away from her home and family and tells Ventress she'll never know what it's like. Assajj tells her she does, and the girl replies that ventress just care for the money, they don't matter to her. Boba gets in telling the "rookie" to come with him. Assajj tells the prisoner that she is, in fact, just a job she doesn't care about. She meets up with Boba who tells her they're almost arrived and she's going to get her share of the reward. Assajj says that as one of the only two left, she gets half, he refuses. She calls him "boy", he gets angry, she force-chokes him.

The train reaches Ultua Blank's palace and Ventress ands him the box. He's delightfed to get his bride and gives her a briefcase full of unmarked credits (looks like gold ingots, weren't they crystals a few seasons ago?). She gets in the train and it leaves Ultua opens the box to find a tied up, and very pissed Boba Fett inside. Ventress, the leader and the prisoner, take the train to a rendez-vous point where they meet with the rest of the "marauders" who give Assajj a handful of credits. She lets the girl go and they leave. Ventress gets back to the top of the space elevator where Dengar, Latz, Bossk and IC are waiting (how did they get back there so fast?), she hands them the briefcase, with five-sixth of the money still inside. She tells Boba won't be long and they should give him his part. then she says she's not staying as part of the team. because she used to be just like them, but now she's changed, now she has a future.

Y'all came in the smae ship, that's gonna be an awkward flight back.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

No, seriously, how are these hunters free? And how do they not recognize her?
Still, that's a nice development on Assajj's character arc. For the first time she gets to leave a group of her own will rather than be ripped away from it. And for the first time in her life, she makes an actual decision, which is to choose to empathize with the person whose shoes she used to walk in.

Honestly, the "reveal" of the cargo was the weakest part of the episode, and it doesn't really makes sense from an in-universe perspective. They should just have had the hunters openly escort a prisoner from the word go.

It was nice to see each hunter's little trick, they really get to be the most unique fighters in _Star Wars_, as in you always know what to expect from a Jedi, a sith or a trooper, but Bounty Hunters tend to each have their own tricks.

Also, I hope they didn't make too much of a dent in these isnurgents (I guess) forces, they killed a lot of these guys' best warriors.


Next up: *Brothers*. ****ing finally!

----------


## Mechalich

> No, seriously, how are these hunters free? And how do they not recognize her?


In the first case, probably bribery. Star Wars jails at this time period are admittedly almost as bad as Arkham, roll with it. As to the second, well, the galaxy's a big place. Ventress is Dathomirian, and those are really rare, but she happens to look almost exactly like a Rattataki (she did live there for some time and shaved her head to appear more like them), who are less rare. Female Rattataki mercenaries are significantly more common around the fringes of the galaxy than rogue Dathomirian Sith apprentices by probably a factor of like 10,000 to 1. So the chances of running into someone who looks like Ventress, but isn't Ventress, is actually much higher than actually running into Ventress, though the lightsabers are admittedly pushing it a lot.

One thing here is that facial recognition technology barely exists in the context of Star Wars, which allows Ventress to walk around fairly openly without every camera on every planet pinging her as a wanted fugitive, and the hunters apparently don't have access to any sort of handheld facial scanner that would make their jobs much easier.

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## Fyraltari

> In the first case, probably bribery. Star Wars jails at this time period are admittedly almost as bad as Arkham, roll with it.


Starting to think taking the Senate hostage to spring Ziro out of jail was overkill...



> As to the second, well, the galaxy's a big place. Ventress is Dathomirian, and those are really rare, but she happens to look almost exactly like a Rattataki (she did live there for some time and shaved her head to appear more like them), who are less rare. Female Rattataki mercenaries are significantly more common around the fringes of the galaxy than rogue Dathomirian Sith apprentices by probably a factor of like 10,000 to 1. So the chances of running into someone who looks like Ventress, but isn't Ventress, is actually much higher than actually running into Ventress, though the lightsabers are admittedly pushing it a lot.
> 
> One thing here is that facial recognition technology barely exists in the context of Star Wars, which allows Ventress to walk around fairly openly without every camera on every planet pinging her as a wanted fugitive, and the hunters apparently don't have access to any sort of handheld facial scanner that would make their jobs much easier.


You'd think her picture would be circulating at least. And we know there is in fact a facial database of criminals because it came up when Ahsoka lost her lightsaber and when the daughters of the Pontarian leader were kidnapped.

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## Keltest

Its not out of the question that the Republic wouldnt make her face public because they dont want bounty hunters trying to go after her in their name. Theyre ostensibly trying to take the moral high ground after all, so having the separatists assassinated would be a really bad look for their public image.

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## Fyraltari

> Its not out of the question that the Republic wouldnt make her face public because they dont want bounty hunters trying to go after her in their name. Theyre ostensibly trying to take the moral high ground after all, so having the separatists assassinated would be a really bad look for their public image.


They put a bounty on Eval, Bane and Hardeen's heads. Bounty Hunters are _supposed_ to work for the Republic, in the first place.

EDIT: Also, bounty also take their quarries alive, at least some of the times.

----------


## Keltest

> They put a bounty on Eval, Bane and Hardeen's heads. Bounty Hunters are _supposed_ to work for the Republic, in the first place.
> 
> EDIT: Also, bounty also take their quarries alive, at least some of the times.


Boba Fett at least is primarily a criminal at this stage. He quite probably doesnt have much access, or interest, in Republic bounties. Heck, he probably has one on his own head if he broke out or was broken out of prison.

----------


## Mechalich

> You'd think her picture would be circulating at least. And we know there is in fact a facial database of criminals because it came up when Ahsoka lost her lightsaber and when the daughters of the Pontarian leader were kidnapped.


It probably is circulating, in the Republic, but Tatooine is not presently in the Republic, it's still under Hutt control. The Hutts could be blocking the dissemination of Republic criminal records in order to protect their own agents. Now, the bounty hunters should still have personal access to the relevant databases, so there's that. 

One thing I don't recall from the episode is whether or not it is implied that Boba does recognize Ventress and just doesn't care. It's not entirely out of character for him (or Bossk and Dengar for that matter, based on other sources involving them) to decide they can't take Ventress down without losses and that working with her is a better option, at least in the short term. And they do get paid, so it kind of works out.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Boba Fett at least is primarily a criminal at this stage. He quite probably doesnt have much access, or interest, in Republic bounties. Heck, he probably has one on his own head if he broke out or was broken out of prison.





> It probably is circulating, in the Republic, but Tatooine is not presently in the Republic, it's still under Hutt control. The Hutts could be blocking the dissemination of Republic criminal records in order to protect their own agents. Now, the bounty hunters should still have personal access to the relevant databases, so there's that.


No way Dooku isn't offering a fortune for her head too. He's buying dead Jedi a million apiece, his "treacherous" apprentice should be worth even more.



> One thing I don't recall from the episode is whether or not it is implied that Boba does recognize Ventress and just doesn't care. It's not entirely out of character for him (or Bossk and Dengar for that matter, based on other sources involving them) to decide they can't take Ventress down without losses and that working with her is a better option, at least in the short term. And they do get paid, so it kind of works out.


He clearly doesn't. He tells her "you don't know who you're dealing with" and she casually Force chokes him saying _he_ doesn't know who he's dealing with.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

The whole point of bounty hunting is to bring in fugitives that aren't in your jurisdiction. Maybe they just don't have a good mugshot of Ventress.

----------


## Peelee

> The whole point of bounty hunting is to bring in fugitives that aren't in your jurisdiction. Maybe they just don't have a good mugshot of Ventress.


Eh, I'd argue that the point of bounty hunting is to outsource fugitive search and capture.

----------


## Keltest

Dooku isnt actually that interested in killing Ventress for its own sake. He did it because Sideous told him to do it or be executed. She demonstrated she isnt capable of assassinating him even with every advantage, and the Nightsisters are broken now, so he doesnt have a huge reason to proactively hunt her down, assuming he even believes her to still be alive after the attack on Dathomir.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Dooku isnt actually that interested in killing Ventress for its own sake. He did it because Sideous told him to do it or be executed. She demonstrated she isnt capable of assassinating him even with every advantage, and the Nightsisters are broken now, so he doesnt have a huge reason to proactively hunt her down, assuming he even believes her to still be alive after the attack on Dathomir.


He singled her out to be killed, to Grievous. He has no reason to think she's dead, Grievous didn't kill her and her body would be nowhere to be found on Dathomir. He doesn't particularly care for the death of individual Jedi and yet he offers a small fortune for any of them.

----------


## Keltest

> He singled her out to be killed, to Grievous. He has no reason to think she's dead, Grievous didn't kill her and her body would be nowhere to be found on Dathomir. He doesn't particularly care for the death of individual Jedi and yet he offers a small fortune for any of them.


The Jedi are different because the whole point of the war is to wipe them all out, or put them in a position for Palpatine to get them. Theyre being killed out of principle.

----------


## pendell

> Eh, I'd argue that the point of bounty hunting is to outsource fugitive search and capture.


Criminals post bounties also.  Boba Fett in the original trilogy scored a bounty from the Empire for Han, then a second one from Jabba for the same target.  

So it wouldn't be surprising if a bounty hunter wasn't also a wanted criminal in at least some jurisdictions.  The forceful apprehension and transport of a person to be put into the hands of someone like Jabba looks an awful lot like kidnapping, and might be well considered as such if the local authorities don't consider the arrest warrant legally valid. 

I imagine there are all kinds of bounty hunters in Star Wars, ranging from the highly ethical, who would only deliver live prisoners and only for reputable employers, all the way down to those the Imperials in ESB called 'scum', people who would do anything to anyone on behalf of any employer, provided the price was right.  The original Boba Fett in ESB seemed to be the "mercenary" that Han Solo started out as -- any job for any employer provided the price is right. It looks like they're trying to clean up his image in the newest show, but the Boba of TCW sounds like he's still an amoral mercenary. Much like his father Jango, who was willing to assassinate political officials, kill his compatriots when they were captured, and serve as donor for a clone army. Not a very nice person, even if he seemed to care for Boba.

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Peelee

> Criminals post bounties also.


I didn't say the bounty had to be a fugitive from the law.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Fyraltari

> The Jedi are different because the whole point of the war is to wipe them all out, or put them in a position for Palpatine to get them. Theyre being killed out of principle.


Still, he has money to spend and she's a known loose end.



> The original Boba Fett in ESB seemed to be the "mercenary" that Han Solo started out as -- any job for any employer provided the price is right. It looks like they're trying to clean up his image in the newest show, but the Boba of TCW sounds like he's still an amoral mercenary.


Well, they're making the character evolve. That tends to happen once you're promoted to protagonist.

----------


## Peelee

What's wrong with an amoral mercenary protagonist?

----------


## Fyraltari

> What's wrong with an amoral mercenary protagonist?


Nothing. But dynamic characters tend to be more entertaining than static ones.

----------


## Peelee

> Nothing. But dynamic characters tend to be more entertaining than static ones.


Mercenaries can't be dynamic?

----------


## Fyraltari

> Mercenaries can't be dynamic?


I don't understand where you are going with this.

----------


## Peelee

> I don't understand where you are going with this.


Two points:

First, character evolution does not necessitate an upward direction.

Second, sometimes a story is about a character who changes (or has changed), and sometimes a story is about a world that is changing (or has changed).

In short, I was saying that "that tends to happen once you're promoted to protagonist" should have something more to back it.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Two points:
> 
> First, character evolution does not necessitate an upward direction.


No-one said it did.




> Second, sometimes a story is about a character who changes (or has changed), and sometimes a story is about a world that is changing (or has changed).


"It tends to happen", does not mean "it always happen".

I apologize if I miscommunicated, but we don't seem to actually be in disagreement.

----------


## Peelee

> No-one said it did.
> 
> 
> 
> "It tends to happen", does not mean "it always happen".
> 
> I apologize if I miscommunicated, but we don't seem to actually be in disagreement.


I'm aware on all counts, I was just trying to say that your answer was effectively "sometimes that happens". Which is kind of true of most things, is all.

----------


## Grim Portent

> Criminals post bounties also.  Boba Fett in the original trilogy scored a bounty from the Empire for Han, then a second one from Jabba for the same target.


Isn't Jabba technically a member of an autocratic/oligarchic government? He's a wanted criminal outside of Hutt space, but that doesn't make him stop being the ruler of Tatooine (and a few other planets in Hutt Space as well I imagine.) Sort of like Dooku, head of state of the CIS, but a wanted criminal in the Republic.


As for bounty hunter's in general, it seems to be a term used for a range of different professions, ranging from legally sanctioned warrant bearing gunslingers who work only slightly outside the conventions of Republic/Empire law, to criminals who hunt other criminals for money, to professional villains who choose to primarily or even exclusively work with what could be described as the 'bad guys' of Star Wars. Looking at you Cad Bane for that last one.

There's probably no real centralised agency directing them or handing out bounties galaxy wide, so any given bounty might proliferate slowly through the bounty hunting communities, or be competed on by different handler agencies for exlclusive rights to distribute and take a cut on the bounty, and some of the groups who handle them will keep the information about high value targets limited to their trusted bounty hunters*. It's possible Boba and his crew aren't important enough yet to have anyone offering them the bounties on high profile targets like Ventress, or that whoever gives them their bounties just legitimately hasn't gotten Ventress's bounty yet.


*As in someone who's shown themselves to be skilled, pays their membership fees or the agency's cut of the bounty on time, doesn't two time with other agencies, doesn't go independent and follows whatever rules the agency sets down.

----------


## Fyraltari

> There's probably no real centralised agency directing them or handing out bounties galaxy wide


The Bounty Hunters' Guild is a recurring world-building element.

----------


## Keltest

> Isn't Jabba technically a member of an autocratic/oligarchic government? He's a wanted criminal outside of Hutt space, but that doesn't make him stop being the ruler of Tatooine (and a few other planets in Hutt Space as well I imagine.) Sort of like Dooku, head of state of the CIS, but a wanted criminal in the Republic.
> 
> 
> As for bounty hunter's in general, it seems to be a term used for a range of different professions, ranging from legally sanctioned warrant bearing gunslingers who work only slightly outside the conventions of Republic/Empire law, to criminals who hunt other criminals for money, to professional villains who choose to primarily or even exclusively work with what could be described as the 'bad guys' of Star Wars. Looking at you Cad Bane for that last one.
> 
> There's probably no real centralised agency directing them or handing out bounties galaxy wide, so any given bounty might proliferate slowly through the bounty hunting communities, or be competed on by different handler agencies for exlclusive rights to distribute and take a cut on the bounty, and some of the groups who handle them will keep the information about high value targets limited to their trusted bounty hunters*. It's possible Boba and his crew aren't important enough yet to have anyone offering them the bounties on high profile targets like Ventress, or that whoever gives them their bounties just legitimately hasn't gotten Ventress's bounty yet.
> 
> 
> *As in someone who's shown themselves to be skilled, pays their membership fees or the agency's cut of the bounty on time, doesn't two time with other agencies, doesn't go independent and follows whatever rules the agency sets down.


Formally i dont know that the Hutts rule any planet besides Nal Hutta. Jabba is considered a crimelord, not the head of a rogue state, by most of the people who talk about the matter in Legends, so my inclination is to say that a lot of his power on Tattoine is informal.

----------


## Grim Portent

> The Bounty Hunters' Guild is a recurring world-building element.


Forgot that wasn't a term for a bunch of smaller agencies in Star Wars.

I'm not sure the Guild will have all contracts available everywhere at the time. Communication in Star Wars is... well spotty at best. Several inhabited worlds show up that seem to have basically no connection to the outside galaxy except what little news they hear from passing ships. The guild's agents on Tatooine could genuinely not have the information that Dooku or the Republic, is offering a bounty on Ventress and/or their information on what Ventress looks like could be bad, not like the holograms in universe tend to be very good.

Didn't the Mandalorian also imply that some bounties get offered to specific hunters before being made public? I could swear I remember an offer of exclusivity being made to Mando at some point, if I am remembering correctly then a bounty like Ventress's would probably not be offered to someone like Boba as he was in the CW.




> Formally i dont know that the Hutts rule any planet besides Nal Hutta. Jabba is considered a crimelord, not the head of a rogue state, by most of the people who talk about the matter in Legends, so my inclination is to say that a lot of his power on Tattoine is informal.


I'm under the impression that the entire Hutt civilisation styles itself as a criminal organisation despite having a claim to being a kingdom, oligarchy or republic (weird as that concept may be to apply to them). The crimelords, such as Jabba, are the sole constituents of the council that rules their homeworld and all other worlds in Hutt Space, rather than just dealing with their criminal matters and negotiations regarding areas where their criminal affairs overlap. The cartels are in theory responsible for whatever passes for a civilian government on their worlds, though I imagine they're negligent towards anything they don't see as a business investment.

They are a government, a laissez-faire government steeped in corruption and based on a parody of real life mafia's, but they still meet all the basic criteria I can think of for a government.

----------


## Mechalich

> I'm under the impression that the entire Hutt civilisation styles itself as a criminal organisation despite having a claim to being a kingdom, oligarchy or republic (weird as that concept may be to apply to them). The crimelords, such as Jabba, are the sole constituents of the council that rules their homeworld and all other worlds in Hutt Space, rather than just dealing with their criminal matters and negotiations regarding areas where their criminal affairs overlap. The cartels are in theory responsible for whatever passes for a civilian government on their worlds, though I imagine they're negligent towards anything they don't see as a business investment.
> 
> They are a government, a laissez-faire government steeped in corruption and based on a parody of real life mafia's, but they still meet all the basic criteria I can think of for a government.


Hutt civilization is weird, by human standards, which is actually good, because Hutts are invertebrates with a 1000-year lifespan. They should be weird. Notably the Hutts just don't really care about being de facto versus de jure rulers of their domains (this is partly because they have disdain for human titles. Jabba has a long list of distinctions appended to his name, but 'Jabba the Hutt' is considered a superior form of address to all of them, because obviously no mere human elevation could possibly measure up to simply _being_ a Hutt). For example, under the Empire Palpatine appointed a Moff of Teth who nominally had jurisdiction over the entirety of Hutt Space including Nal Hutta. The Hutts shrugged, sent the man some nice messages, moved some bribe money around, and moved on. Another way of looking at this is that Hutts really recognize any distinction between plutocracy and kleptocracy because as far as their concerned the purpose of the state - which is comprised of insignificant non-Hutt masses anyway - is their personal enrichment regardless. 

In a general sense non-Hutt-led governments seem to like it when the Hutts pretend they aren't actually in charge of things. As lying to non-Hutts about the state of affairs is perfectly acceptable to the Hutt mindset - they feel not the slightest shame or guilt about this - and since doing so prevents annoying events like wars that imperil both profits and Hutt lives, they're only too happy to pretend.

----------


## pendell

> Forgot that wasn't a term for a bunch of smaller agencies in Star Wars.
> 
> I'm not sure the Guild will have all contracts available everywhere at the time. Communication in Star Wars is... well spotty at best. Several inhabited worlds show up that seem to have basically no connection to the outside galaxy except what little news they hear from passing ships. The guild's agents on Tatooine could genuinely not have the information that Dooku or the Republic, is offering a bounty on Ventress and/or their information on what Ventress looks like could be bad, not like the holograms in universe tend to be very good.
> 
> Didn't the Mandalorian also imply that some bounties get offered to specific hunters before being made public? I could swear I remember an offer of exclusivity being made to Mando at some point, if I am remembering correctly then a bounty like Ventress's would probably not be offered to someone like Boba as he was in the CW.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm under the impression that the entire Hutt civilisation styles itself as a criminal organisation despite having a claim to being a kingdom, oligarchy or republic (weird as that concept may be to apply to them). The crimelords, such as Jabba, are the sole constituents of the council that rules their homeworld and all other worlds in Hutt Space, rather than just dealing with their criminal matters and negotiations regarding areas where their criminal affairs overlap. The cartels are in theory responsible for whatever passes for a civilian government on their worlds, though I imagine they're negligent towards anything they don't see as a business investment.
> ...


Ironically, the Hutt government looks suspiciously like the Republic's. If you have a number of powerful individuals or families, each absolute ruler of their own spheres. Since no one "family" will bow to another, this would mean they would require some sort of council where they could agree on matters involving Hutt Space as a whole, while leaving individual Hutts entirely to their own devices. That's not at all dissimilar from the Republic, with it's Senatorial governing body without military power, and in which the member planets and other groups have absolute autonomy within their spheres. 

So the Hutts ARE a Republic, of a sort. Just if the Republic was comprised entirely of Hutts. 

Wasn't there a Hutt Jedi in one of the Legends stories? He must have been considerably different from your run-of-the-mill Hutt. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Peelee

> Wasn't there a Hutt Jedi in one of the Legends stories?


I want to say _Planet of Twilight_. Even if not, I'm like 90% sure it was Barbara Hambly.

----------


## Aeson

> I want to say _Planet of Twilight_. Even if not, I'm like 90% sure it was Barbara Hambly.


Beldorion says... correct on both counts.

----------


## Mechalich

> I want to say _Planet of Twilight_. Even if not, I'm like 90% sure it was Barbara Hambly.


That is correct. The rogue Hutt Jedi Beldorion appears in that novel. A Force Sensitive, but non-Jedi, Hutt also appears in the novel _Scourge_, by Jeff Grubb. 




> So the Hutts ARE a Republic, of a sort. Just if the Republic was comprised entirely of Hutts.


The Hutts had plenty of influence on the Republic over time, so there's some measure of convergence. Notably, in Legends Blotus the Hutt served as Supreme Chancellor for 275 years, and his generally peaceful reign was later renowned, with the Hutt serving as a great figure in Repbulic history. Most Hutts probably find this hilarious.

----------


## Fyraltari

I think the issue with the Hutts began by a continuity error of sorts between the OT and the PT. In the classic movies, Jabba was a simple crime boss operating within the Empire. But in _Phantom Menace_ he is presentedas the legal authority over Tatooine, which is not part of the Republic. And yet he is still called a gangster. So we end up with this weird situation where Jabba, and all other Hutts who are copies of him, are both rulers in their own right and criminals at the same time.

The other issue is that all the Hutts we see are always in position of authority, when there should be billions of them who aren't any more wealthy than you average Human or Rodian. Where are all the Hutt unskilled labourers or starship captains? How come no Hutt gang seem to ever employ Hutt thugs?

----------


## Thrudd

> I think the issue with the Hutts began by a continuity error of sorts between the OT and the PT. In the classic movies, Jabba was a simple crime boss operating within the Empire. But in _Phantom Menace_ he is presentedas the legal authority over Tatooine, which is not part of the Republic. And yet he is still called a gangster. So we end up with this weird situation where Jabba, and all other Hutts who are copies of him, are both rulers in their own right and criminals at the same time.
> 
> The other issue is that all the Hutts we see are always in position of authority, when there should be billions of them who aren't any more wealthy than you average Human or Rodian. Where are all the Hutt unskilled labourers or starship captains? How come no Hutt gang seem to ever employ Hutt thugs?


Right. Lol. That's why in my head canon, Hutts must have telepathic powers. No Hutt needs to serve another Hutt because they've all telepathically enslaved, or at least charmed, a gang of sufficiently "weak willed" aliens to do their bidding. They probably evolved from parasitic brain slugs that would move around the galaxy getting rides on beings that encountered their home world. Over time their bodies and brains grew to allow them to "charm" more than one being at a time.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Right. Lol. That's why in my head canon, Hutts must have telepathic powers. No Hutt needs to serve another Hutt because they've all telepathically enslaved, or at least charmed, a gang of sufficiently "weak willed" aliens to do their bidding. They probably evolved from parasitic brain slugs that would move around the galaxy getting rides on beings that encountered their home world. Over time their bodies and brains grew to allow them to "charm" more than one being at a time.


So in your headcnnon, are there like, fewer than sixty Hutts, or?

----------


## Mechalich

> I think the issue with the Hutts began by a continuity error of sorts between the OT and the PT. In the classic movies, Jabba was a simple crime boss operating within the Empire. But in _Phantom Menace_ he is presentedas the legal authority over Tatooine, which is not part of the Republic. And yet he is still called a gangster. So we end up with this weird situation where Jabba, and all other Hutts who are copies of him, are both rulers in their own right and criminals at the same time.


Being both rulers and criminals at the same time is quite common. It's called kleptocracy and it's actually quite common. The point of Jabba's higher status during the PT era is to highlight the colossal failure of the Republic of that era to actually function. Tatooine was still at that time _technically_ part of the Republic, buy Jabba's control was so strong he could at as the de jure ruler of the planet. What was the Republic going to do about it, send a strong worded letter? The Empire, by contrast could and, as we see in ANH, did park Star Destroyers over Tatooine which forced Jabba back into the roll of de facto ruler. This didn't do much on the economic front but it did mean Jabba couldn't preside over podraces and the like anymore.




> The other issue is that all the Hutts we see are always in position of authority, when there should be billions of them who aren't any more wealthy than you average Human or Rodian. Where are all the Hutt unskilled labourers or starship captains? How come no Hutt gang seem to ever employ Hutt thugs?


The Hutt Clan structure predates the Republic, and Hutts have complete control over their own reproductive processes. They are perfectly capable of insuring their population never outpaces the supply of slaves and minions. There absolutely are gradations of power among the Hutts, within their clan structure, and there's presumably a large number of low-ranking Hutts on the secret Hutt treasure worlds where non-Hutts aren't allowed to go. Now, Hutts presumably do screw up from time to time and wind up massively in-debt or something, in which case the families take care of it, haul the Hutt home, and make them do penal white collar labor in a box or something for a century, but outsiders _aren't allowed to see that_ in the same way they aren't allowed to see the secret Hutt war fleets and a whole bunch of other stuff that Hutt society has spent 25,000 years pretending doesn't exist. It would endanger the Hutts image (and self-image) of themselves as a superior species that doesn't have to do things like _work_ anymore.

----------


## Thrudd

> So in your headcnnon, are there like, fewer than sixty Hutts, or?


Oh, yeah, I guess there couldn't be too many. More than 60, though, I could see several thousand on a world where they are the dominant power and each control a household of a couple offspring and a couple dozen alien thralls. They probably killed each other off early on in their history, until a sustainable population was reached.

----------


## Peelee

> I think the issue with the Hutts began by a continuity error of sorts between the OT and the PT. In the classic movies, Jabba was a simple crime boss operating within the Empire. But in _Phantom Menace_ he is presentedas the legal authority over Tatooine, which is not part of the Republic. And yet he is still called a gangster. So we end up with this weird situation where Jabba, and all other Hutts who are copies of him, are both rulers in their own right and criminals at the same time.
> 
> The other issue is that all the Hutts we see are always in position of authority, when there should be billions of them who aren't any more wealthy than you average Human or Rodian. Where are all the Hutt unskilled labourers or starship captains? How come no Hutt gang seem to ever employ Hutt thugs?


You're rarely, if ever, going to see an unskilled Hutt laborer. Hurts are egotistical and xeno-... Uh, xeno-egotistical? They see Hutts as the highest form of being. A low ranked Hutt ain't getting off Nal Hutta to be viewed by the galaxy as possibly equal to them.

Also, would there be billions? Thet live over a millennia and their food intake must be quite hefty, both of which are more likely to produce a lower population than shorter-lived, less food-intensive peoples.

----------


## Fyraltari

> You're rarely, if ever, going to see an unskilled Hutt laborer. Hurts are egotistical and xeno-... Uh, xeno-egotistical? They see Hutts as the highest form of being. A low ranked Hutt ain't getting off Nal Hutta to be viewed by the galaxy as possibly equal to them.


But we've seen Nal Hutta, foreigners can come and go on Nal Hutta.




> Also, would there be billions? Thet live over a millennia and their food intake must be quite hefty, both of which are more likely to produce a lower population than shorter-lived, less food-intensive peoples.


Right, but they control a large portion of the galaxy. They've got to number at least in the millions. They can't all be obese crime lords, who's growing all the food?

----------


## Peelee

> But we've seen Nal Hutta, foreigners can come and go on Nal Hutta.


SW:TOR and a few episodes on TCW were all I'd have seen it in, looks like. I don't much remember it from TCW, but did we have a nice, in-depth look at it? Or were those scenes just hitting the highlights and not going too deep into anything? 



> Right, but they control a large portion of the galaxy. They've got to number at least in the millions. They can't all be obese crime lords, who's growing all the food?


Robots, servants, imports because they're all obese crime lords and can afford it. Welcome to Star Wars, the land of single-biome planets and entire alien species who have one job. Try the blue milk and make sure to tip your bounty hunter.

----------


## Fyraltari

> SW:TOR and a few episodes on TCW were all I'd have seen it in, looks like. I don't much remember it from TCW, but did we have a nice, in-depth look at it? Or were those scenes just hitting the highlights and not going too deep into anything?


Some walking around in the cities. One trip into the marshes.




> Robots, servants, imports because they're all obese crime lords and can afford it. Welcome to Star Wars, the land of single-biome planets and entire alien species who have one job.


Alas.



> make sure to top your bounty hunter.


I can think of two meanings for this. Both sound dangerous and one sounds fun but that depends strongly on the bounty hunter in question.

----------


## Peelee

> Some walking around in the cities. One trip into the marshes.


Let me put it this way: we have seen significantly more of Kamino. Have we seen Kaminoan fishers or architects? They eat and have buildings, after all.



> I can think of two meanings for this. Both sound dangerous and one sounds fun but that depends strongly on the bounty hunter in question.


The third is much less exciting - simple "phone guessed the wrong word".

----------


## Fyraltari

> Let me put it this way: we have seen significantly more of Kamino. Have we seen Kaminoan fishers or architects? They eat and have buildings, after all.


All we've seen of Kamino is one specialized facility.




> The third is much less exciting - simple "phone guessed the wrong word".


Pfffft.

----------


## Peelee

> All we've seen of Kamino is one specialized facility.


Cooks and janitors, then?

----------


## Fyraltari

> Cooks and janitors, then?


Let me put it differently. Beyond Kaminoan clone specialists, we've seen two politicians, one hostess and whatever the one riding the flying fish's deal was in the movies and TCW alone. No-one, that I am aware of, treats the idea of a Kaminoan being not involved in the clone trade as being noteworthy or the idea of a Kaminoan Jedi being paradoxal.

Yet people think of the Hutt Jedi mentioned upthread as odd and of the succesfull Hutt galactic Chancellor as surprising.

You and I agree that this comes from SW's habit of pigeon-holing entire races into being Xerox of movie characters/the most (or first) well-known member of the species. I think that they should do something about that, and also that the Hutts have it particularly bad (maybe because their niche is an especially bad one).

----------


## Aeson

> No-one, that I am aware of, treats the idea of a Kaminoan being not involved in the clone trade as being noteworthy or the idea of a Kaminoan Jedi being paradoxal.


There's actually a(n exceptionally old) Kaminoan Jedi in the old EU material.

----------


## Mechalich

An aristocracy can easily represent two or three percent of a population. The Hutts, in areas they control, are a kleptocratic aristocracy. This isn't actually anything special, it's how a colonial foreign power operates, just scaled up to the immensity of Star Wars.

And the Hutts are explicity a colonial foreign power. Nal Hutta is not their homeworld, they stole it from the Evocii.

----------


## Peelee

> Let me put it differently. Beyond Kaminoan clone specialists, we've seen two politicians, one hostess and whatever the one riding the flying fish's deal was in the movies and TCW alone. No-one, that I am aware of, treats the idea of a Kaminoan being not involved in the clone trade as being noteworthy or the idea of a Kaminoan Jedi being paradoxal.
> 
> Yet people think of the Hutt Jedi mentioned upthread as odd and of the succesfull Hutt galactic Chancellor as surprising.
> 
> You and I agree that this comes from SW's habit of pigeon-holing entire races into being Xerox of movie characters/the most (or first) well-known member of the species. I think that they should do something about that, and also that the Hutts have it particularly bad (maybe because their niche is an especially bad one).


The Hutt Jedi was not paradoxical. It was just very badly done. Barbara Hambly wrote very bad Star Wars books.

Also, we see Hutt politicians in the Galactic Senate in the movies, if that makes you feel better.

----------


## Fyraltari

> And the Hutts are explicity a colonial foreign power. Nal Hutta is not their homeworld, they stole it from the Evocii.


But they all live there, don't they? They've abandoned their original planet, if I remember correctly.



> The Hutt Jedi was not paradoxical. It was just very badly done. Barbara Hambly wrote very bad Star Wars books.


Even without reading the book, people usually consider it as odd as Skippy the (joke) Droid Jedi.




> Also, we see Hutt politicians in the Galactic Senate in the movies, if that makes you feel better.


I don't recall. But also all Hutts shown are politicians.

----------


## Keltest

In the old EU at least, there were some "servant" hutts that showed up, at least one of whom had some sort of infirmity that prevented him from gaining weight properly, and was thus considered a barely-Hutt abomination to be used and discarded when he eventually broke down.

The Hutts are all politicians and leaders because they put themselves in that position deliberately. They dont like the idea of a Hutt laborer, they consider it beneath them, and allowing one real Hutt to do that embarrasses the rest of them.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The Hutts are all politicians and leaders because they put themselves in that position deliberately. They dont like the idea of a Hutt laborer, they consider it beneath them, and allowing one real Hutt to do that embarrasses the rest of them.


So what, Hutts have an absurdly efficient welfare-state?

EDIT: ypu'd think a sppecies typecasted as "ruthless criminals" ould have a more "dog eat dog" mentality.

----------


## Keltest

> So what, Hutts have an absurdly efficient welfare-state?
> 
> EDIT: ypu'd think a sppecies typecasted as "ruthless criminals" ould have a more "dog eat dog" mentality.


Theyre Hutts. Only lesser species would conspire to deliberately destroy something so beautiful as a Hutt simply out of principle. Which is not to say the Hutts never fight, there is of course politicking going on among the Hutt clans, but they see the overt destruction of another Hutt to be a fairly undesirable thing, in general.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Theyre Hutts. Only lesser species would conspire to deliberately destroy something so beautiful as a Hutt simply out of principle. Which is not to say the Hutts never fight, there is of course politicking going on among the Hutt clans, but they see the overt destruction of another Hutt to be a fairly undesirable thing, in general.


It's entirely possible to exploit someone without "destroying" them.

----------


## Grim Portent

> So what, Hutts have an absurdly efficient welfare-state?
> 
> EDIT: ypu'd think a sppecies typecasted as "ruthless criminals" ould have a more "dog eat dog" mentality.


I think the way to think of it is that Hutt's are family, and family takes care of family. Though more in a nepotism way than a welfare way. They're a gerontocracy btw, age is valued and respected in itself and tends to be a quality of the members of the Hutt council, which can contribute to a general slow pace of cultural change.

Sometimes family 'takes care of' family too.

If a Hutt is genuinely poor, incompetent or otherwise unable to cut it their relatives either make sure they wind up in some low level white collar position for the family, or discretely kill them for being a failure. If a relative, such as your mother or sibling, winds up in destitution it shows that you as a Hutt are a failure, so social pressure makes most Hutts provide for their close kin.

Menial jobs are done by slaves, lots of slaves. The Hutts basically have entire species enslaved or in a position so close to slavery the difference becomes irrelevant. Slaves provide entertainment, grow and prepare food, fix machines, fight on the Hutt's behalf and so on and so forth.

Are all Hutt's wealthy members of the crime families? No, probably not, but one of them trying to be different is like a real life mobster's kid trying to distance themselves from the criminal aspect of their family, no matter how much they try the family is going to be keeping an eye on them for various reasons.

----------


## Peelee

> It's entirely possible to exploit someone without "destroying" them.


And anything overt like menial labor is going to be shielded from prying eyes. You're likely never going to see it because if it happens, they would deliberately hide it from outsiders.

----------


## pendell

> And anything overt like menial labor is going to be shielded from prying eyes. You're likely never going to see it because if it happens, they would deliberately hide it from outsiders.


It's not just that. It's also that outsiders don't usually have reason to deal with Hutts who aren't politicians or crime lords. 

I'm currently working with an offshore team in , well, let's call it country X.   Everyone I've met from country X is a software engineer or a manager.  But that's not because everyone in X is a graduate of a technical institute. It's because, as a software engineer myself, there's no reason for me to encounter anyone outside of what is a relatively small group. X has dentists, butchers, bakers,  artists, musicians, laborers, hairstylists, and who knows what else. But I don't meet them, because there is no reason for us to cross paths.  

I think the same thing happens with the Hutts in the GFFA.  There may be many different occupations for Hutts, but non-Hutts won't have any reason to deal with them; just with those Hutts who have reason to do business with off-planet travelers. So: Smugglers encounter Hutt crime lords,  Senators encounter Hutt politicians.  It's not that the other occupations don't exist; it's just that a non-Hutt has little reason to cross paths with them. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Peelee

Excellent point, that too.

----------


## Grim Portent

Given their anatomy I'm not sure Hutt's would even be good labourers. Stubby arms aren't great for tool use, and otherwise their only real physical asset is being big and strong.

I genuinely can't imagine a Hutt being a farmer, or a construction worker, or a surgeon or any other job that involves frequent useage of manual dexterity. Overseeing people who do such work yes, but not actually doing the work themselves. I imagine the Hutt equivalent of a farmer is either a plantation owner or someone who tends their own houseplants.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Given their anatomy I'm not sure Hutt's would even be good labourers. Stubby arms aren't great for tool use, and otherwise their only real physical asset is being big and strong.
> 
> I genuinely can't imagine a Hutt being a farmer, or a construction worker, or a surgeon or any other job that involves frequent useage of manual dexterity. Overseeing people who do such work yes, but not actually doing the work themselves. I imagine the Hutt equivalent of a farmer is either a plantation owner or someone who tends their own houseplants.


That depends on how much fat a typical Hutt has. Severe obesity can distort body proportions something fierce. A fit Hutt, like say one who has to work for a living instead of spending all day laying around eating live toads could look a lot more like the typical "snakefolk" body-type.

----------


## Peelee

> That depends on how much fat a typical Hutt has. Severe obesity can distort body proportions something fierce. A fit Hutt, like say one who has to work for a living instead of spending all day laying around eating live toads could look a lot more like the typical "snakefolk" body-type.


Bokku the Hutt disagrees.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Bokku the Hutt disagrees.


This guy could totally be a construction worker! He's ripped!
Now, I'm trying to figure out what Hutt sit-ups look like.

----------


## Peelee

> This guy could totally be a construction worker! He's ripped!


He could be!


.......he's a crime boss.

----------


## Grim Portent

Why does he have abs? I was under the impression Hutts are boneless, the muscles shouldn't be arranged in such a fashion as to form abs.  :Small Confused:

----------


## Fyraltari

> He could be!
> 
> 
> .......he's a crime boss.


I said could! I know he's a crime-boss, but he's clearly taking better care of himself than Jabba I-have-fat-_over_-my-shoulders Desilijic Tiure The Hutt ever did.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

It's classic uncreative EU writing. This character in this one scene was in this role? Guess what, There's a whole planet of those characters, and they're all experts in the thing that one character was!

Bothans were spies once in a throwaway line? All Bothans are expert spies!

Boba Fett has snazzy armour? There's a whole planet of people that wear that exact suit of armour

Admiral Ackbar captained a ship? There's a whole planet of him that builds ships exactly like that one, and they're known for their spacefleet!

----------


## pendell

Here's a hypothesis:  When Hutts first emerged as an intelligent species, they were symbiotes with some other large creature, like remoras with sharks.  The Hutts supplied the "brains" to the "brawn" of their partner-creatures, and it is these creatures which provided the muscle power for their civilization until the Hutts discovered fossils fuels, nuclear power, and other innovations which made muscle obsolete. 

Perhaps, after contact with interstellar civilizations, the Hutts either did not carry their partner-species into space due to the life support requirements, and instead adapted into 'symbiotic' relationships with the other spacefaring peoples. They provide brains and expertise which allows them to act both as politicians or as crime lords. In Jabba's case, the relationship is more "parasitic" then symbiote.  

Yeah, it's probably not backed up by anything at all in canon but I think we've got at least the bare bones of a plausible tale here.  :Small Amused: 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Thrudd

> It's classic uncreative EU writing. This character in this one scene was in this role? Guess what, There's a whole planet of those characters, and they're all experts in the thing that one character was!
> 
> Bothans were spies once in a throwaway line? All Bothans are expert spies!
> 
> Boba Fett has snazzy armour? There's a whole planet of people that wear that exact suit of armour
> 
> Admiral Ackbar captained a ship? There's a whole planet of him that builds ships exactly like that one, and they're known for their spacefleet!


Yes, that's definitely a world-building problem/lack of creativity that has plagued EU since the first RPG. The early EU novels and video games borrowed heavily from material created for the RPG.

----------


## Thrudd

> Here's a hypothesis:  When Hutts first emerged as an intelligent species, they were symbiotes with some other large creature, like remoras with sharks.  The Hutts supplied the "brains" to the "brawn" of their partner-creatures, and it is these creatures which provided the muscle power for their civilization until the Hutts discovered fossils fuels, nuclear power, and other innovations which made muscle obsolete. 
> 
> Perhaps, after contact with interstellar civilizations, the Hutts either did not carry their partner-species into space due to the life support requirements, and instead adapted into 'symbiotic' relationships with the other spacefaring peoples. They provide brains and expertise which allows them to act both as politicians or as crime lords. In Jabba's case, the relationship is more "parasitic" then symbiote.  
> 
> Yeah, it's probably not backed up by anything at all in canon but I think we've got at least the bare bones of a plausible tale here. 
> 
> Respectfully, 
> 
> Brian P.


That's exactly what I was saying for my own headcanon - they are evolved from parasitic brain slugs. Their entire means of survival is some form of innate telepathy that lets them charm/dominate a number of creatures into serving them and protecting them. Hutts will compete with each other for populations of suggestible creatures. The most successful and powerful of them also would need to develop normal interpersonal negotiation skills so that they could command much larger organizations that can't be telepathically controlled. However, they always have an inner "court" of thralls who will serve them without question or recompense and protect them to the death, making them difficult to approach, assassinate or steal from. I mean, look at Jabba's palace - this menagerie of creatures just hangs around, sleeping right next to him in the throne room? Most of these are probably the thralls who serve under compulsion, and are not allowed to leave Jabba's presence (within whatever range the telepathy has). This is also why the Jedi mind trick wouldn't work on Jabba - he possesses a version of it himself. He already knew Bib Fortuna was weak-willed - that's why he keeps him around!

----------


## pendell

> That's exactly what I was saying for my own headcanon - they are evolved from parasitic brain slugs. Their entire means of survival is some form of innate telepathy that lets them charm/dominate a number of creatures into serving them and protecting them. Hutts will compete with each other for populations of suggestible creatures. The most successful and powerful of them also would need to develop normal interpersonal negotiation skills so that they could command much larger organizations that can't be telepathically controlled. However, they always have an inner "court" of thralls who will serve them without question or recompense and protect them to the death, making them difficult to approach, assassinate or steal from. I mean, look at Jabba's palace - this menagerie of creatures just hangs around, sleeping right next to him in the throne room? Most of these are probably the thralls who serve under compulsion, and are not allowed to leave Jabba's presence (within whatever range the telepathy has). This is also why the Jedi mind trick wouldn't work on Jabba - he possesses a version of it himself. He already knew Bib Fortuna was weak-willed - that's why he keeps him around!


Similar, but not exactly the same. I am not assuming psionic powers or telepathy. I am thinking more along the lines of maxed ranks in bluff, diplomacy, and negotiation. 

In Terry Pratchett's Guards! Guards!  He says that in the street gangs of Vimes youth, there was always one scrawny, bright lad who had the #2 slot in the gang. Never the gang leader, but maintained his position by having bright ideas and solid intel on whose homes could be most easily looted , keeping the gang rich and entertained so they don't decide to entertain themselves by beating up the scrawny kid.  

I think that's Jabba's path to power.  Start in a gang as something like a clerk, ingratiate yourself with the boss, supply information and become indispensable, fawning and unthreatening ... until the moment when the support network is in place and all the strings go to him rather than the ostensible "leader", and then one swift coup using hired bounty hunters to change the leadership. 

I don't think we need psionic thralldom to explain Jabba's court. What we're seeing is  sycophancy .  Sycophants -- also known as suck-ups, toadies, hangers-on, courtiers, and the like, throughout history have gathered around rich and powerful figures. Their sole purpose in life is to flatter the rich person in charge in hopes of getting special favors, money, and power in exchange.   You also see them in middle school, where kids can form their own little bands and echo chambers, their own little cliques, where they compete for favor and outcast those who put one foot wrong.  

These tend to form around arrogant, rich people who have allowed their success to go to their heads, and allow themselves to be surrounded by flatterers who will tell them nothing except how great he is.  The Dufflepuds in C.S. Lewis's Voyage of the Dawn Treader had a group like this around their 'chief'.  But you see the phenomenon in all kinds of places. 

I think that's what's going on in Jabba's court. He's rich, powerful, and arrogant. So people on the make come to his court as dancers, musicians, bounty hunters, what not, all to earn their place at his table and share in some of his fortune. It's a dangerous game.  Displeasing Jabba means being fed to a rancor, so there may be a complicated, subtle dance among the courtiers to win as much favor as possible and shove any disfavor or bad opinion on their enemies.     And there are of course contractors like Boba Fett, who are privileged members of the court and hold it by sheer competence and intimidation,  disdaining the games the smaller fish have to play to stay alive.  

It's a difficult, dangerous life for one with few scruples, but I can definitely see why one would choose it over moisture farming. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Kornaki

It's a little strange to think jabba took over by sycophanting his way to the top and then killing the leader, but now he sleeps in a room full of sycophants

----------


## Lord Raziere

> It's a little strange to think jabba took over by sycophanting his way to the top and then killing the leader, but now he sleeps in a room full of sycophants


No its not.

thats just the cycle of power and betrayal at work. good leaders don't surround themselves with people who just tell them what they want to hear in hopes of earning a position replacing them one day. in turn a former sycophant was probably always a bad leader who surrounded themselves with sycophantic underlings even before they got to the top even as they spew out sycophantic lies to their superior. they probably know what they're doing is the same thing their minion is doing to them, but each person in the chain is assuming they are the exception and will triumph over all the others, that due to their self-centered view they assume they're the one playing the game the best instead of the one above or below them. Its sith-like in that manner.

----------


## Grim Portent

> It's a little strange to think jabba took over by sycophanting his way to the top and then killing the leader, but now he sleeps in a room full of sycophants


I think he actually inherited the position from his father, who inherited it from his father. Nepotism rather than schmoozing, he's from a powerful family, so he had the resources to stay powerful. It's not specified to my knowledge is his father was the leader of their clan before him, but given that one of his uncles is still alive and not in charge I'd say it's a safe bet in my opinion. Though it's possible it was under the leadership of his uncle Ebor, who died somehow and then Jabba's father took over, but all we know of Ebor is that Mama the Hutt liked him more than Ziro.

His grandfather, who is unnamed, was powerful enough among the Hutts that he had a record of all their illegal dealings that he kept with himself until he died, then had it hidden with his body.

Jabba's Uncle Ziro and his own nephew Gorga were both powerful and wealthy members of Jabba's clan,  and I would assume he would intend to pass his holdings, illegal and legal, to his own son Rotta once he was old enough.

----------


## Kornaki

That checks out better.  If you kill jabba, the next hutt will come in and crush you anyway.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 21 : Brothers*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Oh, hey, the logo's red today. Because Maul's going to be so important to this show he can change the logo color, but not appear for more than one arc per season, apparently.

Dooku is worried about Savage Oppress growing continuously stronger, which he warns grievous about. This is the last time we see these two during the entire episode. Cut to a random American-style space-diner where Savage is randomly throttling a waitress. Damn, man, she'll bring you your extra pickles, no need to get so worked up! He runs away from the owner (frying pan beats lightsaber, you've heard it here first, folks!) into a warehouse of some kind. There, the amulet Talzin gave him starts reacting to the dust on some crates. He concludes they're from a place Maul was recently. Talzin, who's been watching him from a mist-palantir or whatnot (sure, sure, why not, at this point) and is perfectly not-dead tells the audience she has to make preparations for the brothers' reunion. This is th elast time we see her during the entire episode. Cut to Ventress having a drink in a random cantina somewhere with Latz from the last episode (seems like there's no hard feelings then). Ventress is on edge because she can sense Savage. This is the last time we see these two during the entire episode. Cut back to Oppress, the dusty crates are being loaded off a cargo ship aboard which he sneaks. he forces the captain to take him to the planet he's got the crates from: the junk fields of Lothal minor. Same system as the one from _Rebels_?

Meanwhile, the police is arriving at the dinner, and who else should show up as well, if not Anakin and Ahsoka? Usually these kid of coincidences propel the plot forward, but not here. They ask what's going on, even though the police droid insists they can deal with this. Damn Jedi, stealing the robots' jobs! The owner tells Anakin this happens often, on account of all the rough characters they get around here. He's telling the truth, too, just behind him is the mushroom bounty hunter who helped try to kidnap the Chancellor! With all his guns! Not that Anakin minds. Savage takes off just as the Jedi get free drinks. Anakin feels something sinister. Just missed him buddy! This is the last time we see these two during the episode. Savage gets to Lothal Minor. The entire planet is huge landfill, in one of those cases where you really don't want to think of the logistics behind it all. Savage can tell by the amulet that Maul is close and he randomly decides to eject the captain off his own ship before landing. Wait, where did he ever learn to fly a ship? He walks around for a bit until the amulet stops working, which pisses him off something fierce. Then a snake-like alien called Ollie approaches him to offer his help. He starts throttling him, in what I guess is his default reaction to strangers now. However, with his amulet malfunctioning, he could use a guide. Especially since Ollie can tell he's looking for a person. Oh, and there are dragons to avoid, no biggie. The "fire-breathers" are huge quadripedal droids with fire coming out of their "mouths", that they use to grab and consume(?) junk. Who made them and why, I haven't the faintest clue.

The two are spotted by "junkers", people (droids? cyborgs?) wearing concealing robes and collecting junk, apparently. Maybe they're infringing on their territory, or something, but they get angry and attack. Oppress kills a dozen of them and the rest scatters. Savage tells Ollie he's looking for his brother and the snake says  he's heard legends about a horned man, dragging things "beneath", never to be seen again. Then acidic rain starts falling and they take shelter in a former-turbine turned house? From the ceiling of which a dead junker is hanging. The amulet acts up, so Savage starts looking around, only finding more corpses. He starts ranting, thinking Talzin betrayed him and Maul is dead. Then Ollie tells him she's not the only one who betrayed him and the floor collapses under the dathomirian's feet, making him fall into a deep vertical tunnel while Ollie says he'll make a good offering for his master. And then, he'll get the leftovers! Lovely. Savage lands and is stalked by an arachnoid silhouette. He stats exploring, using his saber as a torch. he spots the creature, a spider-centaur of some sort and runs after it, demanding to know what it's done to his brother. Of course, it turns out the creature IS Maul, which he tells by the talisman finally acting up again (was it on low battery, or what?).

Maul's seen better days. Not only is his lower body gone and replaced with a mish mash of metallic parts kitboshed together into a crud approximation of a spider abdomen (who did that? Ollie has no appendgaes) but he's dangerously skinny and his horns have grown to be almost as long as his skull his wide. Also, he's completely out of his mind, groaning and moving with animalistic frenzy. 1savage follows him to his lair where he starts just screaming no incoherently when Oppress addresses him as "brother". Then Ollie shows up, expecting Maul to have finished eating already. Savage, is not happy with him, to say the least. Ollie exclaims that he found Maul like this and was helping him, but Savage just snaps his neck while Maul moans and cries. He tells Oppress he's been down there for years and he remembers he is a hunter, fear and death incarnate, but also that he is nothing. But he remembers the Jedi who took his legs. And he must have revenge.

Cut to the Jedi Temple wher eYoda and Obi-Wan have felt a disturbance in the Force. Yoda tells him Maul is back for revenge and they are very worried. This is the last we see of the episode.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

This is all just build up for the next episode. Everybody and their grandmother are worried about Maul coming back, we get it.
The episode itself consists mostly of padding, with all these cuts to other characters, long shots of the ship landing, the fire-breathers sequence the fight with the junkers (why were they dead junkers above the tunnel to Maul? Who killed them?).

Ultimately , the whole junkyard planet is neither interesting or pretty to look at.

The snake is a traitor, big shot. Seemed awfully sure Oppress would be killed easily, but I guess he ought to have broken his legs falling.

How did Maul end up in a junkyard, of all places?


Next up: *Revenge*, hope the finale can deliver on all that build-up.

----------


## Aeson

> (why were they dead junkers above the tunnel to Maul? Who killed them?)


*Spoiler*
Show

1. Snake-man implies that he brought Savage Oppress here to become food for him and his master.
2. The junkers are hung from the ceiling like things caught and tied up by fantasy spiders.
3. Maul's legs have been replaced by robotic prosthetics with a decidedly arachnid aesthetic.
4. Spider-Maul attacks Oppress when the latter falls through the floor.

Care to make any guesses as to who killed the junkers and why they're strung up like dead meat in a (fantasy) spider's larder?





> How did Maul end up in a junkyard, of all places?


Clearly, it's a metaphor for where they found the script and for the quality of the episode as a whole.

----------


## Fyraltari

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 1. Snake-man implies that he brought Savage Oppress here to become food for him and his master.
> 2. The junkers are hung from the ceiling like things caught and tied up by fantasy spiders.
> 3. Maul's legs have been replaced by robotic prosthetics with a decidedly arachnid aesthetic.
> 4. Spider-Maul attacks Oppress when the latter falls through the floor.
> 
> Care to make any guesses as to who killed the junkers and why they're strung up like dead meat in a (fantasy) spider's larder?


Except Maul's lair is much more below and the snake expects him to be done with Oppress quickly, so he is not in the habit of storing corpses.

----------


## Grim Portent

I see two possibilities for the corpses strung from the ceiling.

One is that Maul still has a sadistic streak even while insane and strings some of them up when there isn't enough meat on them, or he just isn't particularly hungry, as a terror tactic to keep the others from bothering him.

The other idea I have is that the junkers themselves put them there, as an offering or bait of some kind, hoping to appease Maul or to lure him into a position where they can shoot at him. Human(?) sacrifice to appease what is essentially a demon or bait to catch a wild animal seem like sensible options for them.

Hell, maybe they're Maul's version of windchimes hanging in the back garden.  :Small Big Grin: 


The giant dragon machines are probably meant to incinerate, crush and melt down the junk, like an all in one version of various real life scrap processing machines, but with a weird sci-fi/fantasy vibe. Someone probably collects the materials they collect and refine from the garbage to sell on to offworlders as cheap raw materials. Stupidly overcomplicated for the job, as is an entire moon serving as a multi-planet scrapyard, but it is Star Wars, their industry in general makes no sense.

As for Maul's legs, he's meant to have made them as I understand it. They're not proper cybernetics obviously, more just junk held together by subconcious usage of his force powers and a little bit of actual construction. Presumably made while he was horribly injured but not properly insane yet, crawling through garbage and eating rats to survive, and gradually adding to this crude prosthetic mass, first to protect his lightsaber wound, then to try and improve his movement, eventually getting to the point of multiple shoddy limbs that can just about support him between them. Then as he went more and more insane he subconsciously started modifying it, becoming more animalistic in appearance as he did in mind until he became a spider cowering in the dark.



Real question is how does Maul go to the bathroom? The ends to his digestive tract and urinary tract were presumably in the half of him that included his long lost knees*, so he'd either have cauterised tubes or just sphincterless holes in his charred torso stump, neither of which is conducive to hygenic waste excretion. Proper cybernetics would presumably have catheters or waste recyclers or something, but I can't imagine he'd shove bits of rusty garbage into the destroyed remnants of his colon and bladder to try and improvise a new set of sphincters.

Then again he's a lunatic determined to survive at all costs, so perhaps he did manage to catheterise himself with the Star Wars version of disposable straws and exhaust pipes without dying. Disturbing thought.

*Making an assumption about Zabrak biology here, but it seems a safe bet that their anus and genitals are in roughly the same spot as a humans and work more or less the same.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Mechalich

> I
> Real question is how does Maul go to the bathroom? The ends to his digestive tract and urinary tract were presumably in the half of him that included his long lost knees*, so he'd either have cauterised tubes or just sphincterless holes in his charred torso stump, neither of which is conducive to hygenic waste excretion. Proper cybernetics would presumably have catheters or waste recyclers or something, but I can't imagine he'd shove bits of rusty garbage into the destroyed remnants of his colon and bladder to try and improvise a new set of sphincters.


Subconscious Force use. Maul can simply telekinetically remove wastes from his body. 

The Force can allow for some pretty incredibly violations of biology when attached to a sufficiently motivated individual. Maul is not, after all, the first dark siders to survive being bisected at the waist. That honor goes to Maw, who suffered basically the same injury and subsequently survived as a floating torso in _Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II_, all the way back in 1997.

----------


## hamishspence

> *Spoiler: Recap*
> Show
> 
>  he forces the captain to take him to the planet he's got the crates from: the junk fields of Lothal minor. Same system as the one from _Rebels_?
> 
> ...
> 
> a snake-like alien called Ollie approaches him to offer his help.


It's_ Lotho_ Minor, not _Lothal_ Minor. The Anacondan's name is Morley.


https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lotho_Minor
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Morley

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 4, Episode 22 : Revenge*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Savage Oppress is taking Darth Maul to Dathomir and Mother Talzin. However, he refuses to leave the ship and just repeats Obi-Wan's name while quivering in a corner. Savage elects to live and discovers the remains of the Nightsisters. Talzin super-smokes in and fills him in on what happened. She's confident the Nightsisters will endure. I mean, with Ventress gone, aren't you the last one of the clan? Doesn't look like very good odds to me. Talzin isn't very happy with Maul's state, but not worried about it. She summons a ball of light to lure him out and lead him to her temple. Seeing Maul like this is kind of creepy. Then she magically puts him to sleep. Aaaaand he's having a nightmare.

She begins a ritual where she pulls some oily black smoke out from his skull. !is that supposed to be his "madness", she has magic-therapy as power too? What am I asking, of course she does. Ritual's not done, though, she separates him from his spider lower half and pulls some bits of wire and metal that were lying around to forge into mechanical legs for him while he screams in pain. Also a collar and braces materialized for him and his horns grew shorter. She orders him to rise and he does. Immediately throttling Savage and then letting him go. Talzin just smokes out without a word. Wow, we're not even pretending she has agency anymore, are we?

Darth Maul needs a moment to adjust to his new legs, but he's much more coherent now. And then he runs out of the temple and screams. He explains that his hatred kept him alive. He wants to know why the Force feels more unbalanced than before and Oppress tells him the Clone Wars are going on. "Oh yes, so it began. Without me." Huh, Darth Maul was in on the whole clone plan? Interesting. I have a hard time picturing him playing Dooku's role, but maybe he could have lead the CIS just as well, in a different style, with less pretension of good intent. Savage gives him a lightsaber that he pulled out of his ass, I guess, and Maul decides he's going to start his new life with some of that sweet, sweet revenge.

The brothers head to planet "Raydonia" (?), to a remote village where the original owner of the ship was aparently expected and are greeted by a bunch of children. Darth Maul explains to Oppress that to get the attention of the Jedi, one must slaughter the innocent. Fun! Cut to the Jedi Temple were Obi-Wan and the council are watching a recording of Maul killing defenseless people and demanding Kenobi comes, alone, or he'll kill the rest. Obi-Wan wants to do just that. Windu interjects that it's an obvious trap and they should end in a whole task force, but Yoda overrules him "against his better judgement" as he feels Obi-Wan must finish what he started; Windu still thinks Obi-Wan alone is not guarantee enough of capturing Maul. Yoda says he might have an unexpected ally and they msut trust the Force. The Force lets them down.

Meanwhile in a cantina somewhere, a bunch of bounty hunters are looking at a least of wanted people, with assorted bounties, and who should have the highest one (at a million credits), but Savage Oppress? Hearing the name Ventress immediately calls dibs on it and downloads the bounty-file/hologram thing in what I think is a reference to bounty hunters ripping off "wanted" posters in Westerns. This just raises more questions, thought, not the least of which "How is your face not on that list, Assaj!?" No, seriously, Savage was involved in the war for, like, a week at most, I'm really surprised they even have footage of him.

Obi-Wan reaches the village... and it's burning and littered with corpses. Maul shows up and rants about their last encounter, confirming to Obi-Wan that he's the real deal. Savage ambushes Obi-Wan, manages to disarm him and the two Darksiders beat him up out of his senses. Ventress arrives and sneaks aboard their ship as they take off. In the cargo hold, Maul is having a grand old time beating the snot out of a defenseless Kenobi who's not as witty as usual, despite his best efforts. The Zabrak ignites his lightsaber, intent on upping the torture a notch. Assaj chooses that moment to make her presence known. Fool, you could have killed one them before they'd noticed you! Savage makes the introductions. She leads them away from the hold and backtracks to rescue Kenobi. "When did you become the good guy? - Don't insult me." Hah! She gives him a lightsaber "I want that back. That's fine, red's not my colour." This is going to be another red-saturated fight, innit?

Naturally enough, Maull attacks Obi-Wan while Savage fights Ventress. The wayward witch loses her weapon but Kenobi manages to get his back from Maul so he returns the one she lend him. Maul pisses the Jedi off by bringing Qui-Gon up, then mocks Kenobi for being so easy to disturb. Kenobi tells Ventress they're outmatched "You want to run? - I learned from watching you." And they run to the cockpit. Which can eject from the rest of the ship. Left adrift in space, Maul decides they can afford to wait a little for his revenge, and he counts on the Jedi coming after them.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
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Well, there wasn' tthat much revenge in this episode was there.
Also, Why do I get the feeling that if they'd listened to Windu here, they'd have saved themselves a lot of trouble down the line?

Talzin keeps being a plot device rather than a character.

I wasn't expecting Savage or Talzin to bring up Feral to Maul, but I'm surprised Ventress didn't. Seems like it'd have been an easy way to distract Oppress and Maul or drive wedge between them.

So, next season begins with Ventress in custody, right?



Up next: I'm probably going to write little review of the whole season, even if I feel I don't have much to say, and then start season 5 with *Revival*.

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## Peelee

> Savage elects to live


How close was the election?  :Small Tongue:

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## dancrilis

> How close was the election?


Single person election and a decision was made, as such the decision reached carried 100% of the vote.

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## Peelee

> Single person election and a decision was made, as such the decision reached carried 100% of the vote.


And yet it was a lone swing vote that made the difference.

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## Fyraltari

> How close was the election?


Almost ended up with a hung parliament.

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## Grim Portent

Talzin's basically only hanging around on Dathomir to fix Maul when he gets there. She's actually dead as I understand it, the whole green mist thing is basically the Nightsister equivalent of being a force ghost, though it doesn't ever get explained to my recollection. It's probably difficult to manifest like that, which might be why she's around so little after turning into a cloud of smoke. As is I think she only appears in one more episode in the entire show, and it's not even a Maul one weirdly enough.

*Spoiler:* 
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It's a Windu and Jar-Jar one, which is a very odd combination.

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## Keltest

Everything about Darth Maul's resurrection makes me sad, from suddenly turning him into a Nightbrother out of nowhere to the fact that he's apparently an unstoppable killing machine with better prosthetics than Darth Vader even though they were built IN A CAVE! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!
sorry, but i had to do it

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## Peelee

> Everything about Darth Maul's resurrection makes me sad, from suddenly turning him into a Nightbrother out of nowhere to the fact that he's apparently an unstoppable killing machine with better prosthetics than Darth Vader even though they were built IN A CAVE! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!


Everything about Darth Maul's resurrection makes me sad, from being resurrected...

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## Keltest

> Everything about Darth Maul's resurrection makes me sad, from being resurrected...


I figured that part went without saying. Let the poor bisected man lie.

Although his death in Rebels was well done.

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## Mechalich

> Talzin's basically only hanging around on Dathomir to fix Maul when he gets there. She's actually dead as I understand it, the whole green mist thing is basically the Nightsister equivalent of being a force ghost, though it doesn't ever get explained to my recollection. It's probably difficult to manifest like that, which might be why she's around so little after turning into a cloud of smoke. As is I think she only appears in one more episode in the entire show, and it's not even a Maul one weirdly enough.


Generally, I'm fine with Talzin as a plot device rather than a character. Sometimes that's all the role in a story someone has. Talzin's role is to do inexplicable Force-spells that advance the greater Maul-Ventress-Obi-Won plot, which is one of the more important plots in the show as a whole and has central roles for some of its best characters.

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## Peelee

> I figured that part went without saying. Let the poor bisected man lie.
> 
> Although his death in Rebels was well done.


Yeah, but I think I'm funny. Also, I disliked his death in Rebels.

*Spoiler: I don't even know why I'm spoilering this.*
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The poor original movie. Whoever owns Star Wars at the time will not rest until every last shred of it is stripped away. "Your father wanted you to have it when you were old enough". Nope, he didn't even know you were alive, and attachments are forbidden anyway., Darth Vader betrayed and murdered your father". Nope, same person. "Obi-Wan Kenobi? Obi-Wan.... Now that's a name. I've not heard in a long time... A long time." Except for, like, last year, when I killed a Sith Lord. Again. 


I'll watch Kenobi, and I'll probably enjoy it (as I enjoyed Rebels. Even that part), but I'm going to mentally shake my fist at it like. crotchety old man the whole time.

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## dancrilis

> *Spoiler: I don't even know why I'm spoilering this.*
> Show
> 
> The poor original movie. Whoever owns Star Wars at the time will not rest until every last shred of it is stripped away.


Agreed as stated before:



> I hear you, Star Wars: A New Hope is an incredible movie, at times I wonder if every other movie Star Wars movie is merely trying to tear it down.


Which makes some sense after all if you what to compete with something but can't you can always try to cheat and hope nobody notices.

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## Keltest

Mostly i liked that it was quick and didnt involve a massive 20 minute lightsaber duel between two old men. Even if it did involve one of the most idiotic lightsaber blocks i have ever seen.

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## Fyraltari

> Talzin's basically only hanging around on Dathomir to fix Maul when he gets there. She's actually dead as I understand it, the whole green mist thing is basically the Nightsister equivalent of being a force ghost, though it doesn't ever get explained to my recollection. It's probably difficult to manifest like that, which might be why she's around so little after turning into a cloud of smoke. As is I think she only appears in one more episode in the entire show, and it's not even a Maul one weirdly enough.


Except she misted just before Grievous hit her, so I'm unclear as to how she'd have died.



> Everything about Darth Maul's resurrection makes me sad, from suddenly turning him into a Nightbrother


Speaking of which, shouldn't he be calling himself "Maul Oppress" in _Rebels_?



> out of nowhere to the fact that he's apparently an unstoppable killing machine with better prosthetics than Darth Vader even though they were built IN A CAVE! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!
> sorry, but i had to do it


How are they better than Vader's?



> Generally, I'm fine with Talzin as a plot device rather than a character. Sometimes that's all the role in a story someone has. Talzin's role is to do inexplicable Force-spells that advance the greater Maul-Ventress-Obi-Won plot, which is one of the more important plots in the show as a whole and has central roles for some of its best characters.


Characters as plot device are fine when they show up once to do one thing. Boba Fett was a plot device to separate Han from the rest of the cast. It worked.

Talzin however not only does she keep getting involved, but she does so in contradictory ways:

She wants to help Ventress kill Dooku so she loans her two assassins and sends them to him, when that fails she gives him a brainwashed mole in the form of Savage. And when he breaks free from their control, she starts helping him instead of punishing him. Oh and she could have killed Dooku at any time. I can accept that a prop is a tree, but it's harder when it keeps falling on the stage.

Also the limits of her abilities are non-existant so that undermines every situation she's in.

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## Keltest

> How are they better than Vader's?


Well he can run and be acrobatic on them.

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## Peelee

> Mostly i liked that it was quick and didnt involve a massive 20 minute lightsaber duel between two old men. Even if it did involve one of the most idiotic lightsaber blocks i have ever seen.


Totally fair, and I completely agree. 



> Well he can run and be acrobatic on them.


Dangit, I was going to say "well he can move faster than a nice walk".

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## Keltest

Well you see, I too think that I am funny.

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## dancrilis

> Talzin however not only does she keep getting involved, but she does so in contradictory ways:
> 
> She wants to help Ventress kill Dooku so she loans her two assassins and sends them to him, when that fails she gives him a brainwashed mole in the form of Savage. And when he breaks free from their control, she starts helping him instead of punishing him. Oh and she could have killed Dooku at any time. I can accept that a prop is a tree, but it's harder when it keeps falling on the stage.


Maybe she is just bored, and amusing herself with whatever seems entertaining at the time.

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## Fyraltari

Yeah, but he also had lungs that work fine.

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## Keltest

> Yeah, but he also had lungs that work fine.


That should matter a lot less for mechanical legs. Its not like his muscles need oxygen or anything to work.

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## Peelee

> Yeah, but he also had lungs that work fine.


I'd imagine that the fighting Vader does requires more lung power than jogging for ten seconds, like to catch the ship getting away with the Death Star plans, as a quick example.

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## Fyraltari

Meh, I don't particularly care either way. It's a detail. It's like asking why a guerilla movement on the run could afford a better prosthetic for Luke than the Jedi Order could pay for Anakin.




> Maybe she is just bored, and amusing herself with whatever seems entertaining at the time.


That's a bad excuse and you know it.

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## pendell

> Meh, I don't particularly care either way. It's a detail. It's like asking why a guerilla movement on the run could afford a better prosthetic for Luke than the Jedi Order could pay for Anakin.


That's easy. A guerrilla movement doesn't have the 504th accounting legion to ensure that all purchases of equipment haven't had at least three levels of approval and followed all the regulations in the handbook. A guerrilla org is one step away from a criminal group -- and in fact, at least in Rogue one, several alliance members _are_ criminals. 

:Ponders  an expense report and considers the alternative of a life of crime: 

Tongue-in-cheek ,

Brian P.

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## Fyraltari

> A guerrilla org is one step away from a criminal group -- and in fact, at least in Rogue one, several alliance members _are_ criminals.


All rebels are criminals by definition.

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## dancrilis

> All rebels are criminals by definition.


Depends on the laws - staging a rebellion against your parents by not eating your brussels sprouts probably isn't illegal in many places, perhap in a galaxy far far away violence insurrection against the legitimate galactic government is not illegal (although that would be an odd oversight in the legal system).

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## Peelee

> Meh, I don't particularly care either way. It's a detail. It's like asking why a guerilla movement on the run could afford a better prosthetic for Luke than the Jedi Order could pay for Anakin.


Imean, they're insanely well-funded.

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## Fyraltari

> Imean, they're insanely well-funded.


Yet,  I'd think they'd notice if their budget suddenly included commissioning an entire army.

EDIT:


> Depends on the laws - staging a rebellion against your parents by not eating your brussels sprouts probably isn't illegal in many places, perhap in a galaxy far far away violence insurrection against the legitimate galactic government is not illegal (although that would be an odd oversight in the legal system).


A) Not obeying the Emperor is quite obviously a crime under the Empire.

B) Leia clearly states they were acting against the law in _Bloodlines._

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## Peelee

> Yet,  I'd think they'd notice if their budget suddenly included commissioning an entire army.


Look, I was just pointing out that the Rebellion could afford it. For the Empire, well, those prosthetics were put in by a noted *******.

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## Kornaki

> Look, I was just pointing out that the Rebellion could afford it. For the Empire, well, those prosthetics were put in by a noted *******.


I think Fryaltari thought you were talking about the Jedi order, who bought an army without even noticing.

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## Peelee

> I think Fryaltari thought you were talking about the Jedi order, who bought an army without even noticing.


I thought it was fairly clear I was talking about the Rebellion, but possibly. Even then, though, the Jedi didn't foot the bill for the clones.

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## Grim Portent

> Except she misted just before Grievous hit her, so I'm unclear as to how she'd have died.


Same way as Obi-Wan, who dissapeared before Vader even hit him.

The idea seems to be that turning into mist killed her, but let her hang around afterwards and still do magick, whereas if Grievous had gotten to hit her she'd just be dead.


As for her motives, I think she mostly wants revenge on Sidious in any way she can get it, and to try and help Maul survive and rise in power. There's some backstory from comics which doesn't come up in the show, but basically Sidious approached Talzin to exchange knowledge, Sith lore for Nightsister magick. Talzin agreed and they spent some time teaching each other on Dathomir, but once Sidious had everything he wanted he left with knowledge of magick to bolster his own alchemy, kidnapping Talzin's son Maul in the process and leaving Talzin mostly with knowledge that wasn't particularly useful.

Talzin was obviously pretty pissed off, but there's limits to what she can do to Sidious directly since he's very powerful, both individually and politically (wealthy family, ties to the senate) and not tied to Dathomir like she is, so she had to wait and trust that the force would bring her instruments through which she could seek revenge. Cue Savage, Ventress and a returned Maul all of whom are more directly powerful.

Sadly none of this wound up in the show, which is a failing on the show's part, because you shouldn't need to read other material to get a show unless the show is explicitly a multimedia project. Not the only thing that got skipped for time mind you, but there's certainly a few entire episodes that could have been cut to make time for more interesting arcs.

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## Dargaron

> Everything about Darth Maul's resurrection makes me sad, from being resurrected...


It's incredibly disappointing that so much narrative space got devoted to bringing back Darth Maul, while Grievous was mostly relegated to "angry cyborg who hates Jedi." His pre-cyborg backstory in the _New Essential Guide to Species_ is _wild_: dude was born on the Star Wars equivalent of a pre-warp civilization being raided by slavers from Huk, a planet on the edge of Republic Space. He and his mate captured enemy equipment, kicked the slavers off their planet, reverse-engineered a war fleet and went on to attack the colonies that had supported the slavers during their raids, so successfully that the Huk government ran to the Republic for help against this "unprovoked" invasion.

He's basically a successful version of The Commander from XCOM who rallied his planet against alien invaders and led them into the space age out of sheer necessity. He should have been _oozing_ charisma and force of personality. But no. Angry cyborg who fails a lot and hates Jedi.

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## Peelee

> It's incredibly disappointing that so much narrative space got devoted to bringing back Darth Maul, while Grievous was mostly relegated to "angry cyborg who hates Jedi." His pre-cyborg backstory in the _New Essential Guide to Species_ is _wild_: dude was born on the Star Wars equivalent of a pre-warp civilization being raided by slavers from Huk, a planet on the edge of Republic Space. He and his mate captured enemy equipment, kicked the slavers off their planet, reverse-engineered a war fleet and went on to attack the colonies that had supported the slavers during their raids, so successfully that the Huk government ran to the Republic for help against this "unprovoked" invasion.
> 
> He's basically a successful version of The Commander from XCOM who rallied his planet against alien invaders and led them into the space age out of sheer necessity. He should have been _oozing_ charisma and force of personality. But no. Angry cyborg who fails a lot and hates Jedi.


Dont forget "runs away!" he's gotta run away in ever appearance so he can be alive in Episode 3!

Imean jeez, just create a new character. Colonel Placeholder or whatever.

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## Jasdoif

> Imean jeez, just create a new character. Colonel Placeholder or whatever.


Wait a minute....*Pl*ac*e*hold*e*r?  *P*ee*lee*?!

...a Force-sensitive kell dragon with some traits from the zillo beast _would_ be an improvement over most of Grievous' appearances, yes.

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## runeghost

> It's incredibly disappointing that so much narrative space got devoted to bringing back Darth Maul, while Grievous was mostly relegated to "angry cyborg who hates Jedi." His pre-cyborg backstory in the _New Essential Guide to Species_ is _wild_: dude was born on the Star Wars equivalent of a pre-warp civilization being raided by slavers from Huk, a planet on the edge of Republic Space. He and his mate captured enemy equipment, kicked the slavers off their planet, reverse-engineered a war fleet and went on to attack the colonies that had supported the slavers during their raids, so successfully that the Huk government ran to the Republic for help against this "unprovoked" invasion.
> 
> He's basically a successful version of The Commander from XCOM who rallied his planet against alien invaders and led them into the space age out of sheer necessity. He should have been _oozing_ charisma and force of personality. But no. Angry cyborg who fails a lot and hates Jedi.


While it's not remotely canon, I can't help but think of Grievous as his portrayal in the Darths & Droids webcomic:
*Spoiler: Spoilers for a years-old webcomic*
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where he's an insane, cyborged Chancellor Valorum. Who has great monologues.

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## Fyraltari

*Spoiler: Thoughts on season 4*
Show

Overall season 5 isn't the best season of the show. It has a really rough start with the Mon Cala arc, the droid weirdness and the first Naboo episode. Then a pretty strong middle with the Umbara arc (best one in the season), the Ahsoka standalone, the slaver arc and the "Obi-Wan the double agent" arc, the last semi-arc is a mixed bag as Ventress's and Boba's episode was rather good the other two weren't.

We've now definitely settled into a "several four-parters and a couple standalone" structure. While there's nothing inherently wrong with that, it clearly limits the shows ability to tell a continuous story, as is evident from my growing season-long frustration with the lack of progress on what I'm calling the "rogue Sith plot" (i.e. Ventress, Maul and Savage stuff). It's understandable they ditched this structure for _Rebels_. Also, I feel like several of these arcs could have stood to lose an episode that could have been better used elsewhere (or put to better use within the arc's story).

This season has definitely killed any remaining sense of menace I had from Grievous. Getting captured by Gungans, of all people, was bad enough, but even when the show decides to give him a win (against the Nightsisters) he still manages to lose fights and botch the job. Remember how he was on shaky grounds with Dooku back in the early seasons? How has he not been "fired" yet? Seriously, how hard could it have been to throw a few random Jedi at him to kill to justify his reputation? I'm not saying they should have brought back the unstoppable juggernaught of the original cartoon, but still...

The show continues its attempt at telling Anakin's story better than the movies, by showcasing his growing (relative) ruthlessness with the slavers and having him feel betrayed by the Council and Obi-Wan. This is still rather milquetoast as Anakin still hasn't done anything that's actually morally reprehensible in this show despite already being a mass-murderer on his way to kill children.

The Umbara arc was zcellent, it gave Fives and Rex some much needed character development. I'm a bit disappointed that Cody didn't get to enjoy some of that too. I guess they didn't want to make him evolve too much, since he's fated to shoot Kenobi in the back, and they may not have come up with the brain-chip idea yet.

Maul's return is a bit underwhelming so far. He's made one very unsubtle attempt at killing Kenobi that obviously didn't work out. For a character that's been teased one whole-ass season ago, that's not much. Like I've said several time, he's in a narratively awkward place as the show needing to account for his utter absence in _Revenge of the Sith_ means he can't really succeed.

Assajj becoming a bounty hunter is a really unexpected direction for her character to go. I wonder where they're taking her. What does it say about me that I would love it if they went full redemption-arc with her, ending with her being accepted into the Jedi Order, only for Vader to kill her in the sack of the Jedi Temple?



As an aside, does anyone know why it's called The Clone War*s*? I'm only aware of one war going on.

*Season 5, Episode 1 : Revival*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The narrator informs us that Maul and Savage have been on something of a rampage throughout the Outer Rim, fleeing from the Jedi but killing and pillaging as they go. While we're being told this we see them defeat and kill a pair of Jedi: a twi'lek woman and someone who looks like Master Di. Cut to them attacking a space station and slaughtering the security droids defending it. One droid is cut off as he states they are "trespassing on intergalactic--" so I guess this place belongs to the Banking Clan? Savage randomly kicks stuff around until he breaks a safe open, and it's almost overflowing with credits. Maul doesn't care about wealth, he just wants to kill Kenobi.

He says that in order for them to go on, they must not be conflicted and Savage must submit to his vision. Savage thinks they work well as equals, but Maul simply replies that there must always be two: master and apprentice. And his brother is the apprentice. I see, Maul wants to start his own Sith Order, with black tats and snookers! This pisses off Savage something fierce (understandable, given his two previous masters) so Maul decides to teach him a lesson. He easily overpowers him, grabs his head with his claw-foot thing and slams him on the floor, somehow not breaking his spine. Savage submits and Maul promises to complete his training (hey, he's got about as much as Luke ever got).

Kenobi and Master Gallia arrive at the station looking for the brothers. They're gone but the owner(?) of the place is still there. He's speaking some kind of heavily accented or dialectal English I can only understand like 45% of but he tells the Jedi they stole his cargo ship and were heard speaking of the Surtar sector. Obi-Wan tells Gallia that's where Florum is, so they can expect pirates. Come on, there's got to be other possible planets in the sector they could be interested in, no?

He's correct, however, as a Weequay pirate ship spots the Dathomirians' ship drifting in low-Florum orbit. They detect a couple lifeforms but a down engine. Not one to look a gift bantha in the mouth, the pirate leader decides to board, kill anyone onboard and take their stuff. They find a whole bunch of guns and spice and seem pretty happy with it... until two "Jedi" show up and overpower them. The borthers offer to spare them and pay them handsomely if they agree to work for them. Also Maul clarifies that they aren't Jedi but crimelords. Heh, aspiring crimelords at most. Turns out those guys were working for Hondo, but they're pretty happy about betraying him. Two things: how many people does the Ohnaka gang employ exactly, because it really starts to look like the entire Weequay species work for the guy and how is Hondo still hanging out around Florum? Has Dooku really still not gotten around to making him pay for the humiliation?

Anyway, the pirate calls up a two other underbosses of Hondo. One of which is certain that Hondo will never agree to work for Maul. He's also the only one not to immediately pledge himself to Maul, instead requesting they talk to Hondo about it. What dod you think he's going to say? Maul does so and tell Hondo three of his lieutenants have already joined with him. "Traitors. Scum! I'm so proud... But so betrayed." Okay, that cracked me up. Maul then states there's a penalty for hesitation and kills the one pirate who was on the fence. Hondo tellls him he's dealt with "laser-sword* wielding maniacs" before and he's not afraid of him.

The Jedi reaches Florum's orbit and spot the broters' stolen ship as well as the three pirates. Gallia logically assumes they're selling their stolen goods, but Obi-wan doesn't think Hondo would treat with them. I mean, given his track record, it's a coin-toss whether he'd try to take them hostage for some reason. Kenobi then calls Hondo. The Pirate is angry with the Jedi accusing him of bringing a new menace to his doorstep after the Republic's lost the system, leading to Grievous destroying his stronghold, forcing him to "rummage through the leftovers of [his] once great empire." Okay. Time-out. First. Florum was lost by the Republic? It controlled it in the first place? I thought the pirate base was the only settlement on the planet, are there other poeple living there? Second, Grievous came there? When? And he destroyed the place but left you and a whole bunch of pirates alive with at least three functional ships?! How incompetent can he get? I'm assuming the use of "empire" is a bit of hyperbole on Hondo's part. He's a drama queen. Right. The pirate gets Kenobi up to speed on what's going on and they agree that the Jedi can deal with the "tattooed crazies" while he takes care of the traitors.

The pirate ships do a strafing run on the defenseless loyalist pirates but then decide to land for some reason. Hondo declares he wants their tongues and both groups run towards each other. Also the traiotrs shoot red blasters while Hondo's crew shoot blue for no in-universe reason. The rogue Sith see the Jedi ship landing and run towards them while Maul complains that it's too soon, his plan is not ready yet. Obi-Wan throws a zinger at Maul and they start fighting. Gallia ineffectively kicks Savage at the left knee ans his lack of reaction scares her. The former(?) Nightbrother manages to overpower her and stab her with his horns (why?) and lightsaber. Obi-Wan is horrified and forced to duel the two at once. Hondo, who's retreating calls for him to join his crew in the ruins of his base. The Jedi does so, after pulling Gallia's lightsaber to his hand.

Inside, Hondo sets up an ambush with a cannon and is scared "semi-speechless" (heh) to learn that Obi-Wan's cohort has been killed, since that means this threat may be too powerful for even him. Obi-Wan tells him, he's going to draw the brothers away from the pirate, once that's done, Hondo should blast the passage close. "And leave you alone with the two crazies? Well... okay." The plan works flawlessly and the mutineers surrender when faced with the superior firepower of Hondo's cannon (not sure why exactly, but let's roll with it). MAul and Savage corner Obi-Wan who draws both lightsaber and prepares to take them on. Hondo tells the traitors that the two Sith don't care about them, only Kenobi and they beg for his forgiveness. He decides not to kill them and to celebrate their reunification by plundering the horned men's ship. So is he still taking their tongues? Having just finished _Dishonred_'s DLCs, I am reminded of this moment:
*Spoiler: After helping Lizzie Stride take back control of her gang from her treacherous right-hand man*
Show


*Lizzie:* I forgive you! All of you! I'm filled with love. But, the following people each owe me a finger: Logan, Douglas, Bang-Bang, Ferris, Pigface, the Bakers and Annabelle.
*Annabelle:* ****.
*Lizzie:* Two from you, Annabelle. Have a good night!

Obi-Wan holds his ground surprisingly well against the two brothers and kicks Savage's left knee repeatedly (he can't have seen Gallia do it?) until it breaks (or sprains at least) which allows him to pass uunder the Sith's guards and slice off Savage's left arm. Maul cries out for Savage (using his name rather than calling him "Apprentice" like he does the rest of the episode) and force-pushes Kenobi away, collapsing the ceiling between them. Savage isn't bleeding, but his stub leaks the Dathomirian's green magic, which is probably not good for long-term health.

Everybody but the Jedi reaches the exit at the same time and Hondo mocks the Sith for running away from Kenobi. Maul calls him insolent, but Hondo says that, as pirates, they don't even know what that means! The two Dathomirians run away from the pirates, but several lucky shots end up severing Maul's left leg. It also "bleeds" the green mist, so I guess his prosthetics are powered by it too? Maul pulls the Jedi ship form the height it was landed on to slow their pursuers down and Kenobi can only watch them take off helplessly. One of the pirates, however, has a rocket launcher and damages the ship's engines. Maul and Savage (who looks about to faint) get to an escape pod before it crashes. Hondo invites Kenobi to come take a gander at the wreck with him. The pirates find the money but no trace of the Sith. Hondo theorizes they've been vaporized but the Jedi knows better than to accept that. Ohnaka doesn't care.

Cut to Palpatine's office where Obi-Wan, Yoda, Windu and Skywalker for some reason are meeting with the Supreme Chancellor. He decides that even if Maul is indeed still alive, this problem can't take away Republic ressources any longer and he wants Obi-Wan to focus on the war again. He doesn't care how many petty crooks Maul can gather, they're irrelevant next to the CIS. The Jedi are dismissed. Obi-Wan thinks the crime families have been left too much alone since the beginning of the war, and this may be fertile ground for the Sith. Yoda agrees with him, but he's worried this is turning into Obi-Wan's perosnnal crusade, clouding his judgement. He decides they should just wait for Maul to reaveal himself again. Cut to Sidious making an evil smirk for the camera.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Well, Season 5 is hitting the ground running!
This episode was a lot of fun, it was well paced and we got some nice characterization for Maul. He's trying to emulate Darth Sidious, to be true Sith, and treating Savage like an Apprentice rather than a brother, but it's clear he loves him, as his slip of the tongue shows (that and his "trust me" at the end). Maul also seems like he's got an actual plan this time. In part because he says so a few time, but also because he's taking steps beyond "kill Kenobi". Sidous is unlikely to take well to anyone starting an off-brand Sith Order though.

Hondo really hit his stride there. He was really obnoxious in his debut episode and has become gradually les so, but this is the first time he's been genuinely charming and funny. The "charismatic scoundrel" is a tough act to balance and write, but they seem to have found the trick. He didn't really leave much of an impression on me in _Rebels_ but I _think_ he was closer to this level of charm.


Next up:  A war on two fronts. I'm guessing more Maul and savage stuff. They do need to get some new prosthetics.

EDIT:
Also, there seems to have been an upgrade in animation? Everything feels more fluid somewhat, especially during Obi-Wan's two-on-one fight.

*So, that's also an in-universe term for lightsabers, huh? Interesting.

----------


## Grim Portent

Hondo is one of those characters who's either charming or really annoying depending on the episode. More often leans towards annoying as I recall. His crew is basically always annoying.

To be honest I do wish he had gotten killed at some point, he's one of those characters where it kind of beggars belief that he'd survive for as long as he did. Hardly the only character in Star Wars like that, but for some reason he stands out to me as someone who could have died on several occasions where his death would have been better for the story. Certainly he's got the personality where a last stand for his own weird sense of honour would have been both in character and entertaining.

Instead he winds up in Rebels, as basically just a travelling grifter on somewhat good terms with the Rebellion.

The animation definitely makes a step up, especially for lightsaber fights, in the future. Some of them wind up really damn nice to watch.

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## Mechalich

> As an aside, does anyone know why it's called The Clone War*s*? I'm only aware of one war going on.


"Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars." - Leia, ANH. 

Since the movies automatically win the narrative, that terminology was sustained, even when Lucas finally decided what the conflict actually looked like and 'Clone War' would have made more sense. 

Admittedly, in Legends at least, there were really two wars. The Clone War of the Republic versus the CIS and the Reconquest of the Rim of the Empire versus Separatist holdouts, the Hutts, and various independent warlords from 19-17 BBY, with Clones serving as the central component of the Repubic/Imperial forces in both.

----------


## dancrilis

> As an aside, does anyone know why it's called The Clone War*s*? I'm only aware of one war going on.


This is normal - of you take a look at the timeline of WW2 (World War 2) you will see that there were many different declarations of war, the first of which was Germany declaring (via ultimatum) against Poland and the last of which was Mongolia declaring against Japan (via wiki, other wars can be argued).

The Republic political system has never really been nailed down so it is possible that many 'states' declare war independantly (like the EU), in which case it is possible that many seperate (but connected) wars occured during The Clone Wars.

----------


## Keltest

> *So, that's also an in-universe term for lightsabers, huh? Interesting.


It has been since The Phantom Menace, at least.

----------


## Mechalich

> This is normal - of you take a look at the timeline of WW2 (World War 2) you will see that there were many different declarations of war, the first of which was Germany declaring (via ultimatum) against Poland and the last of which was Mongolia declaring against Japan (via wiki, other wars can be argued).
> 
> The Republic political system has never really been nailed down so it is possible that many 'states' declare war independantly (like the EU), in which case it is possible that many seperate (but connected) wars occured during The Clone Wars.


The Confederacy of Independent systems, as originally designed - meaning in Legends supplemental materials - was a social movement rather than an actual government and the various bodies that made it up such as the Commerce Alliance, the Techno Union, and the Trade Federation could all be said to have declared war on the Republic independently (insofar as a corporate oligarchy can declare war). However, TCW changed this, significantly, by giving the CIS its own Senate structure (even though it doesn't appear to have any power) and casting the various commerce groups as 'officially neutral' to the point that they retained representatives in the Republic Senate (Lott Dodd, the Trade Federation Senator, appears multiple times in TCW) even though military forces they created and managed were actively engaged on the battlefield.

That said, it's possible that there are still independent belligerents that aren't officially part of the CIS, the Umbarans might be one such example, which would support the Clone Wars, plural, descriptive term.

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## Grim Portent

Umbara notably was originally on the Republic's side, only seceding and joining the CIS after their senator was assassinated, so they actually did declare war on the Republic seperately from most of the CIS.

As for the megacorps, I think they maintained an official stance of neutrality, claiming the assets found in the service of the Confederacy were rogue elements or purchased legitimately. The Trade Federation in particular had a treaty that specified they were neutral in times of war, presumably because of how important they were for shipping goods to some parts of the galaxy, which allowed them to 'sell' weapons and droids to the CIS at a relative bargain, blockade Republic planets that owed them money and other things that clearly violated the intent of their supposed neutrality.

----------


## Aeson

> However, TCW changed this, significantly, by giving the CIS its own Senate structure (even though it doesn't appear to have any power)


The CIS having a Senate doesn't say anything more about its governing structure or the degree of sovereignty (notionally) held by its member states than the European Union having a Parliament says about it.

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## Taevyr

> Hondo is one of those characters who's either charming or really annoying depending on the episode. More often leans towards annoying as I recall. His crew is basically always annoying.
> 
> To be honest I do wish he had gotten killed at some point, he's one of those characters where it kind of beggars belief that he'd survive for as long as he did. Hardly the only character in Star Wars like that, but for some reason he stands out to me as someone who could have died on several occasions where his death would have been better for the story. Certainly he's got the personality where a last stand for his own weird sense of honour would have been both in character and entertaining.
> 
> Instead he winds up in Rebels, as basically just a travelling grifter on somewhat good terms with the Rebellion.
> 
> The animation definitely makes a step up, especially for lightsaber fights, in the future. Some of them wind up really damn nice to watch.


Aside from his role in the "Seven Samurai" episode, I always loved seeing Hondo in Clone Wars, and he certainly improves as the series progresses. Probably my favourite non-clone side character, chaotic neutral scumbag that he is.

Didn't know he was in Rebels though: the animation style never clicked with me.

----------


## Fyraltari

> he stands out to me as someone who could have died on several occasions where his death would have been better for the story. Certainly he's got the personality where a last stand for his own weird sense of honour would have been both in character and entertaining.


None of the other characters have any connection to him, so I'm not sure. Maybe if it's framed as a blowback from his general (mis)behaviour?





> "Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars." - Leia, ANH. 
> 
> Since the movies automatically win the narrative, that terminology was sustained, even when Lucas finally decided what the conflict actually looked like and 'Clone War' would have made more sense.


Yes, I know, I was wondering about in-universe reasons. I guess Lucas originally envisionned it as a series of conflicts, but given how unreliable about his original ideas he is, we will never know.




> Admittedly, in Legends at least, there were really two wars. The Clone War of the Republic versus the CIS and the Reconquest of the Rim of the Empire versus Separatist holdouts, the Hutts, and various independent warlords from 19-17 BBY, with Clones serving as the central component of the Repubic/Imperial forces in both.


A) Isn't RotS set in 19 BBY? Because the' it sounds like the exact same conflict.
B) Even if not, that's not a reason for characters to use the plural while still in the "first" clone war.



> This is normal - of you take a look at the timeline of WW2 (World War 2) you will see that there were many different declarations of war, the first of which was Germany declaring (via ultimatum) against Poland and the last of which was Mongolia declaring against Japan (via wiki, other wars can be argued).


Like you said: "World *War* Two". Singular.





> It has been since The Phantom Menace, at least.


Being in no hurry to rewatch that film, I will take your word for it.



> The Confederacy of Independent systems, as originally designed - meaning in Legends supplemental materials - was a social movement rather than an actual government


Wasn't the name "CIS" already established by stuff like visual dictionnaries when the Prequels were coming out? Because that's a government's name.

Granted, names in Star Wars are very weird.




> However, TCW changed this, significantly, by giving the CIS its own Senate structure (even though it doesn't appear to have any power)


It seems to have significant power, actually, since Dooku can't just override its decision to negociate a peace and has to work behind the curtain to stop it.



> and casting the various commerce groups as 'officially neutral' to the point that they retained representatives in the Republic Senate (Lott Dodd, the Trade Federation Senator, appears multiple times in TCW) even though military forces they created and managed were actively engaged on the battlefield.


I still think that was a bad idea. Of they wanted neutral war profiteers, they should have gone with TaggeCorp, Blastech and such. This way not only do they not contradict the films, but it nicely sets up the Empire's corruption and hypocrisy.




> That said, it's possible that there are still independent belligerents that aren't officially part of the CIS, the Umbarans might be one such example, which would support the Clone Wars, plural, descriptive term.


The Umbarans were supported by a battle-droid fleet.




> Aside from his role in the "Seven Samurai" episode, I always loved seeing Hondo in Clone Wars


Even when he decided to take hostage the people paying him for his other hostage?




> Didn't know he was in Rebels though: the animation style never clicked with me.


He's lost his gang and is basically just an ageing petty crook/funny man helping out once in a while.



10 quatloos on him showing up in future Filoni-helmed works, like _The Mandalorian_ or _Ahsoka_.

----------


## hamishspence

> 10 quatloos on him showing up in future Filoni-helmed works, like _The Mandalorian_ or _Ahsoka_.


He's already shown up in Galaxy's Edge tie-in novels set after TFA, so there's nothing to stop him appearing in the post-Rebels era.

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## dancrilis

> Like you said: "World *War* Two". Singular.


But that is essentially merely branding - like 'the war to end all wars', 'the great war' and 'WW1' can all refer to what could be called 'the first world war'.

Calling the set of global conflicts in the middle of the last century 'world wars two' sounds off and calling the conflict 'the clone war' sounds less impressive then 'the clone wars' - I am sure that the republic/cis/empire marketing team did consider a whole load of names for the conflict to be called (and likely had more then one acceptable one), and that is before regional differences get involved and different education systems apply.

It is possible that Luke's schooling was 'a series of conflicts - commonly called 'the clone wars' due to the prevalance of clone troopers used in various the conflicts - which ultimately lead to the collapse of the old republic and the formation of the empire' before moving onto the lesson plan of 'and here is an economic rational on why we farm moisture on a desert planet'.

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## Peelee

> This is normal - of you take a look at the timeline of WW2 (World War 2) you will see that there were many different declarations of war, the first of which was Germany declaring (via ultimatum) against Poland and the last of which was Mongolia declaring against Japan (via wiki, other wars can be argued).
> 
> The Republic political system has never really been nailed down so it is possible that many 'states' declare war independantly (like the EU), in which case it is possible that many seperate (but connected) wars occured during The Clone Wars.


Even if that were true, Yoda said in the very first battle, "Begun the Clone Wars have."

Didn't even torture the narrative to fit the name. Just had a character name it that for no reason. 



> 10 quatloos on him showing up in future Filoni-helmed works, like _The Mandalorian_ or _Ahsoka_.


He's a Filoni character who survived TCW series, and Filoni is involved in those shows. No bet.

----------


## Fyraltari

> But that is essentially merely branding - like 'the war to end all wars', 'the great war' and 'WW1' can all refer to what could be called 'the first world war'.


But it's still just one war. Yes there were various parties involved, but it was just one conflict.




> I am sure that the republic/cis/empire marketing team did consider a whole load of names for the conflict to be called (and likely had more then one acceptable one), and that is before regional differences get involved and different education systems apply.


I think Yoda just coined the term in AotC.




> It is possible that Luke's schooling was 'a series of conflicts - commonly called 'the clone wars' due to the prevalance of clone troopers used in various the conflicts - which ultimately lead to the collapse of the old republic and the formation of the empire' before moving onto the lesson plan of 'and here is an economic rational on why we farm moisture on a desert planet'.


But it was just one conflict: CIS vs Republic. Even if the Separatists were an alliance they had a unified military with a centralized command structure.

----------


## dancrilis

> Even if that were true, Yoda said in the very first battle, "Begun the Clone Wars have."


That is not what I hear him saying.
*Spoiler: Video of Attack of the Clones*
Show






My hearing is 'begun the clone war has', indicating that the initially naming and the later naming are different and that some civil servant likely got plenty of work out of giving it a different name and came up with 'the clone wars'.




> But it's still just one war. Yes there were various parties involved, but it was just one conflict.
> 
> 
> I think Yoda just coined the term in AotC.
> 
> 
> But it was just one conflict: CIS vs Republic. Even if the Separatists were an alliance they had a unified military with a centralized command structure.


Some of it I think could be described as seperate conflicts such as planetary civil wars that occur within the overall conflict with backing for one or both major sides.

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## Fyraltari

> Some of it I think could be described as seperate conflicts such as planetary civil wars that occur within the overall conflict with backing for one or both major sides.


But that still a single war. With multiple theaters/fronts, yes but there is a unity of the two sides and the reason for their fighting.



> He's a Filoni character who survived TCW series, and Filoni is involved in those shows. No bet.


Hmm, what other _The Clone Wars_ alumni might show up in live-action in the future?
I'm thinking:
-Rex, provided Temuera Morrison agrees to it.
-Ventress
-Some of the Hutt Council
-Embo and Suki, I think was the name of that zabrak bounty huntress?
-The Pandonians

Hmm, it's hard to think of other characters that are popular, not confirmed dead and not pre-existing.

----------


## Keltest

There was also the war against Death Watch/the Shadow Collective on Mandalore, which was fought using the clones. And presumably many other border rebellions that weren't part of the separatist movement that the clones participated in.

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## Grim Portent

Given that the war was called the Clone Wars by the Repubic pretty much from the start I think it could just be a matter of multiple planets declaring independance at the same time without an actual single government for the Republic to declare war on. The CIS government didn't exist immediately, they took a while to form their own parliament and elect Dooku as their formal leader.

In the interim the Republic would presumably have declared war, possibly in an informal fashion, on the secessionist worlds. So you'd have the war on pre-CIS Trandosha, pre-CIS Geonosis and so on, which then becomes a single war when the seperatists create a formal governing body and become the CIS proper rather than a disparate political movement rallying behind a figurehead.

Really there could be a few in universe explanations for the name, but I think the idea that the war started out as a group of smaller fuzzy wars fits what we've seen quite well.

----------


## Aeson

> Wasn't the name "CIS" already established by  stuff like visual dictionnaries when the Prequels were coming out?  Because that's a government's name.


Confederacy of *Independent* Systems sounds more like the name of  an alliance, actually. Also, to put stock in the name, a Confederacy in  modern political theory is a union of sovereign states, i.e. something  more akin to the European Union or the Confederate States of America  than to the United States of America or the Swiss Confederation; its  central authority can pass laws but has limited or no power to implement  and enforce them.

Furthermore, in relation to this line of  discussion it is worth mentioning that in many cases things get  identified with particular constituents of the CIS rather than with the  CIS itself in Star Wars works set in the Clone Wars period, including if  I am not mistaken the visual dictionaries and Guide to X series books.




> B) Even if not, that's not a reason for characters to use the plural while still in the "first" clone war.


There  isn't any particular reason to assume that the Clone Wars are a series  of strictly-sequential wars rather than a collection of contemporary  wars.




> But it's still just one war. 
> ...
> Yes there were various parties involved, but it was just one conflict.But  it was just one conflict: CIS vs Republic. Even if the Separatists were  an alliance they had a unified military with a centralized command  structure.


Is the Hundred Years' War a single continuous war  that lasted ~117 years, or a series of conflicts all related to an  English claim to the French throne and disputed possession of Normandy  and other areas more or less along the French coast? Are the Wars of the  French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars several distinct wars, or one  long conflict between Britain, France, and their neighbors in which  Britain and France clashed while their neighbors passed in and out of  the war and from one side to the other and back as alliances and the  fortunes of war shifted?

Also, with regard to World War II being  'just one war,' I would point out that a very good case can be made that  the Second World War is actually at least two more or less separate  wars that react on one another and get lumped together under one banner  mostly because of common participants; the war against Germany and the  war against Japan interact mostly because Britain and the USA were  heavily involved in both.

----------


## Mechalich

> Hmm, what other _The Clone Wars_ alumni might show up in live-action in the future?
> I'm thinking:
> -Rex, provided Temuera Morrison agrees to it.
> -Ventress
> -Some of the Hutt Council
> -Embo and Suki, I think was the name of that zabrak bounty huntress?
> -The Pandonians
> 
> Hmm, it's hard to think of other characters that are popular, not confirmed dead and not pre-existing.


The zabrak bounty hunter's name is Sugi. She and Embo both appeared in the Aftermath novels, briefly. Sugi's niece is Jas Emari, a character of significant importance in the Aftermath novels, providing her an additional tie-in to the new canon. Embo is somewhat more complicated. Though Disney canon has established he was still as bad*** as ever all the way out in 34 ABY (decades after the current live action show dates), and Embo is a fan-favorite character his alien physicality might be a challenge in live action. 

Bounty Hunter droid C-21 Highsinger is a possibility though, especially since droids don't have the aging out issue that impacts most of the TCW characters 30 years down the line.

----------


## Peelee

On a related note, my deepest sympathies to anyone who has read the Aftermath series.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 5, Episode 2: A War on Two Fronts.*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The planet Onderon, lead by its new king has seceded from the Republic and joined the CIS, however a rebel movement of Republican loyalist is still fighting from the jungles. Their leaders are on the holo-phone with the Jedi council as well as Ahsoka and Anakin, for some reason, and look! Lux Bonteri is part of the group. They're asking for hardware and other supplies to support their fight. Obi-Wan objects that the king of Onderon did choose to join the Separatists. The implied message being that the Jedi don't want to overthrow a legitimate government, even if separatist allied. In which case I've got to wonder what exactly Obi-Wan thought he was doing on Geonosis and Umbara. ****ing tourism? Another insurgent interjects that this king is an usurper, and a separatist puppet and the real one (he doesn't say his name) has been silenced. Yoda gives a non-committal assurance that they'll find a way and the call ends. Not before Lux and Ahsoka exchange glances, which should be impossible since on her end he's got a life-sized hologram and on his, she's ten-centimeter high on a table, but whatever.

Anakin argues that the Republic could fund and train pockets of resistance on many separatist planets to hit "soft targets" while the Republic does the heavy lifting. To Kenobi's hears that sounds like terrorism. To mine it sounds like asymetric warfare. You can disrupt supply lines (for example) without targeting civilians. Windu agrees with Skywalker (still weird), this would open a "second front" for the Separatists to deal with. Yoda is worried that they shouldn't use fear as a tool, it's against the purpose of the Jedi. Obi-Wan is afraid of a slippery slope. "We must not train terrorists. -Huh, rebels." Cute. They argue a little more along those lines until Yoda decides they'll send advisers to train and observe, nothing more for now. Anakin is to assemble a team and Obi-Wan volunteers, because he "trusts Anakin too much" and that worries him. This is why he's going to kill you all one day, you know.

Cut to our favorite trio of Jedi and a clone (later shown to be Rex) wearing something like modern military fatigue dropping in the Onderonian jungle in the middle of the night. They meet up with rather jumpy insurgents lead by a woman named Stila would takes them to their base in what looks like an abandoned temple. The rebels are using some alien-horsies and dragon-looking things as mounts. Stila introduces them to Saw Guerera, who fancies himself their leader even though the others don't seem to necessarily agree. Two things: one that's the guy from _Rogue One_, I knew he was going to show up here eventually. Two, so the deposed king isn't the leader? I guess he must be dead or prisoner somewhere, then. But the Jedi are going to take charge for now, it's time for training.

Anakin and Obi-Wan expalins that they're here to teach them how to beat battle droids who outnumber them, but not to fight their war in their place (fair enough). First lesson is going to take place a "half-click" west (500m then? If you're leaving the camp, I guess it makes sense to not go very far, but still that's very not very far). Ahsoka takes the opportunity to have a chat with Lux. She says she had no idea he had ties with Onderon and he replies that it's his home, the planet he and his mother represented in the Senate. Okay, so two things, does that mean Padmé never told Ahsoka even the most basic thing about the senator they were going to meet? Second, if that's the case why did your mother live in big honking mansion on the planet Praxis? Also he says that he's not changed his mind, he doesn't want to "fight for the Republic". Wait, hold on. IS he speaking just for himself? Because he's joined a pro-Republic movement, hasn't he? Or do the rebels also not want to rejoin the Republic and, I guess want a completely independent Onderon? In which case, I've got to salute the _chutzpah_ to ask the Republic for aid. Ahsoka mentions the last time they met, prompting Lux to explain to Stila that Ahoska's the reason is with them and not Death Watch. You're telling me that without her, you'd have join the guys who massacre villages for not grovelling hard enough, really? Stila... is not very fond of Ahsoka and of Lux's high opinion of her.

On the training ground Ahsoka explains to the rebels how to fight a tank... Where did they find that tank?! Did the rebels capture it? Because if so, I think you can skip the lesson! She explains that they're piloted by two dorids in two chambers who need to both be taken out to disable it. Rex demonstrates by jumping on the tank, opening the first hatch and tossing a grenade in it, then doing a completely unnecessary somersault to get on the cannon, walking on it like an acrobat, opening the second hatch and tossing a grenade inside and jumping off. So, do the droids never lock the hatches, or? Anakin orders the trainees to pair up to practice a simultaneous attack. First up are Saw and Lux. Saw starts opening the bottom hatch and Lux tries to climb on the cannon, but he falls on Saw and the both roll on the ground. Swa calls him a terrible soldier. Kenobi tells Anakin that they should focus on the quick learners, they don't have much time. I guess that makes sense, then the Onderanians can train each other.

Meanwhile on the outskirts of Izziz, the capital, a random B1 orders a trio of probe droids to check a specific area where an unregistered ship landed last night. Back at the training, Stila is patching up Lux while Saw LARPs as a drill-sergeant. He goes to see Bontieri and blames him for getting them both killed, had it been a real combat situation. He's basically calling him a useless politician, and he's calling him a knucklehead. Stila tries to calm them down by saying their little operation will need both "words and action" their respective specialties. Saw just leaves. Next lesson: droidekas. Anakin explains that their shields can withstand anything that's not classified as artillery, but theyr have two weaknesses: 1) the shield lets slow objects pass, so they don't hinder the droids movement (that makes a lot of sense) which they demonstrate with a couple of droidekas (again, where did they get those?) by shooting at them and then tossing an EMP grenade. 2) they don't have eyes on their back, so distract them from one direction and toss the EMP from another. There's a catch, though, you need to toss it just hard enough that it reaches the droid not so hard that the shield stops it. Saw tries and... too fast. Lux tries and... nails it in one. Ahsoka compliments him and if looks could kill, Stila could start a lightsaber collection. She tries and... too fast. Lux shows her how to do it by grabbing her arm and shoulder and demonstrating the proper gestrure. Ahsoka goes all puppy-eyes while violins play. "Oh, great." My thoughts exactly, little 'soka. Ahsoka wants to practice with Lux but he's already paired with Stila so Saw volunteers to get her help. What am I watching?

The probe droids found them! And they report it to an OOM commander droid on the outskirts of Izziz. Is he supposed to be the same B1 as before? That one didn't have any yellow markings. The commander dispatches a squad (one tank, and about 60 B1s and B2s) to deal with them. Back at training, Saw finally manages after several tries, but Stila gives up. Ahsoka goes to talk to her while she's tending to her sniper rifle. Ahsoka tells her it took her a while to learn to do it right to. Stila simply says that she "know[s] what [she's] good at" while looking down the scope of her weapon. She proves it by shooting heads of B1s on a wall in the next trainign lesson. Mandatory "Impressive. Most impressive." from Anakin. Ahsoka levitates one head to give her a moving target and... she lands every shot. Everybody, including Lux, is impressed with her. Anakin asks Ahsoka if she's losing focus. She says she's fine. Rex explains that a headshot is the onmy way to both make sure a droid is dead and not passing intel to central command. The training continues until Stila spots the squad of droids almost ontop of them. Huh, did you guys place no sentries at all? Can't decide whether you're worse insurgents or military trainers. What is this, amateur hour?

The battle starts in earnest, with Obi-wan informing us that training is over. Time to graduate, I guess! Anakin suggests he take the left flank while Kenobi takes the right, but Kenobi says they're only here to protect them, not fight the war for them. YOU ARE BEING SHOT AT! WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! Kenobi tells Stila to run awy with the rebels while the JEdi cover them, but she says they did't teach them to run. I guess that was lesson 4? She orders Saw and several other to throw disruptors at the droids. "What is that? -It looks like an explosi- BOOM!" still as perceptive as ever, those droids. Also, I suppose lesson 5 ought to be "the difference between disruptors and C4", because_ that_ was no disruptor. And then the tank shows up and starts shelling them. Stila shoots the the locks off the "horse" paddocks and the beasts starts rampaging. Towards the droids who are currently shooting instead of away because shut up. Saw hands a grenade to Lux and asks if he's ready to try again. They run to the tank, climb it, without trying to get on the cannon, (Rex is a bad teacher is what I'm getting at) and toss the grenades inside. It explodes. Did they run out of ion charges or what? Lux's got a little bit of soot on his face and Saw likes it. Makes him look like a warrior.

The Jedi congratulates them on their victory, but points out that more droids will come, now that they know where the base is. They're very enthusiastic now that they've realized how dim-witted the droids can be. They won't be able to deal hit-and-run tactics. They need a plan to get into the city, though. Luckily, Lux has an idea. It's to show up at the main gates riding carts and say they've been hunting for days. They claim they didn't know they needed to register because they're almost never in the city. The droids can't scan much of their carts because they're full of organic matter. So they let them in. naturally. Once inside the rebels split off and plan to meet up at nightfall. Obi-Wan tells Anakin he's hopeful about the new strategy. Err, why are you still there? Weren't your orders to just train them? Because you're directly taking part in an operation, now.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

 I remember Onderon from Kotor II, nice place. I haven't seen Dxun anywhere in this episode, not even in the establishing shot of "ship arrives at planet", is it no longer canon? I always thought it was a cool, if bonkers, idea.

Hey, you know what this show needs? A love triangle! It makes sense that Ahsoka would start to get boy-trouble, I guess, but I only find love triangles tolerable at the best of times, so I hope we get this done fast.

_Star Wars_ tactics barely make sense on their best day (hello future armies using 19th century battle tactics!) so I can forgive them considering sponsoring insurgent movements on ennemy territory as a bold new strategy this late into the war, but why do the Jedi equate anything not a direct confrontation on the battlefield with terrorism? Nothing in Anakin's proposal involved using terror at all! This seems like a way to lean on the old meme of Rebel alliance = Space terrorists, even though the Rebels are never shown to use fear or target civilians.

So I touched briefly on it in the recap, but Obi-Wan disapproves of overthrowing a legitimate king who chose to join the Separatists. Really? Isn't that the entire point of the war? The Republic refusing to accept the independence of the CIS and therefore branding its leadership as traitors? What does he think will happen once the Republic wins, excatly? A pat on the wrist and a stern lecture about the galactic constitution? This fits with a general trend in this show, but not just, to portray the CIS as leading an aggressive war against the Republic as if they were a foreign state trying to conquer it, when logically/ideologically they should just be trying to get them out of their territory. I guess it makes sense from a Sith perspective to maximize the destruction and spread it around, and from a purely military perspective, you' d want the fighting to happen on the other guy's turf, so as long as there's fighting the CIS pushing into Republic space isn't absurd. But come on, most of the fighting should be happening inside the CIS's borders.


Next up: *Front Runners*

----------


## Keltest

Keep in mind that the Jedi know that the CIS is a puppet state for the Sith, but most people do not. Their goal isn't to bludgeon the rogue systems into line except when completely unavoidable.

Of note, they didn't overthrow the government of Geonosis either. Obi-wan at least clearly views the Jedi as actual honorable chivalry style knights, and not just wizards with super swords. Anakin meanwhile seems to look at them as being obligated to the Republic and to serve as best they are able.

----------


## Grim Portent

Well yes, technically what should have happened is the CIS aligned senators present a document declaring their intent to secede from the Republic, then begin the process of withdrawing from the Republic Senate and the removal of Republic government organisations from their territory as they form their own government and make their own arrangements in a process taking several years, with a war only starting if the Republic tries to stop them leaving. Assuming the Republic legal system allows for secession, which it seems to in the case of Onderon and so would presumably allow for every seperatist world to secede peacefully.

What actually happened was the Clone Army attacked the CIS aligned world of Geonosis, which had just been the seat of a secret negotiation between the leader of the Confederacy and the leaders of various business conglomerates promising military support in exchange for favorable business deals, while the ruler of Geonosis was in the process of executing a senator and two jedi on espionage charges. The CIS then started seceding quickly in response to the attack on one of their own by what many saw as Republic authorities, egged on by pro-war business groups. The Republic then justified further military action in response to the 'illegal' secession and the acts of aggression against Republic authorities, even if most such acts were justified in the context.

In theory Dooku and Palpatine would have justified starting a war another way without the first battle of Geonosis, likely playing on the anti-seperatist sentiment among the Republic senate to push for not pulling out of CIS territory, and generally leaning on the seperatists until they lashed out, or by playing on specific interspecies tensions, like with the Republic Kashyyk and Seperatist Trandosha, which have the awkward spot of being in the same system and hating each other.



Personally I generally feel the CIS were right to want to secede, and should have been able to do so without an army of clones and space monks attacking them... buuuut there are edge case planets like Zygerria and Trandoshan that want to secede so they can do evil stuff without risk of legal punishment. I doubt a peacetime CIS would let them keep doing that stuff for long either, but then the CIS is based on the principle that they should be less centralised than the Republic, so curtailing the actions of their various immoral member planets could be considered as violating the spirit of their nation. Not to mention the presence of the Seperatist War Council, consisting of Dooku and his various corporate stooges which were actively trying to start a war in the name of profit margins.

So I'd say there is grounds to oppose the idea of invading a world just because it's seperatist, but still be in favour of fighting a war to apprehend Dooku and the various war criminals he has surrounded himself with in order to then negotiate properly with the people who have a legitimate grievance with the Republic. Not sure that's supposed to have been Obi-Wan's thoughts when opposing getting involved with Onderon, but I think having a problem with Dooku that he's willing to fight over doesn't necessarily make him a hypocrite when not attacking a planet that has switched sides through seemingly legitimate means. Of course not intervening on Onderon when they did on Umbara is a bit hypocritical, but I think Umbara was more strategically important, and stopping the Sith necessitates stopping the CIS first, which in turn requires the recapture of Umbara, so it can fit with a greater good kind of thought process.

Or it's just shoddy writing to justify doing different kinds of genre fiction. Maybe a bit of both.





> Keep in mind that the Jedi know that the CIS is a puppet state for the Sith, but most people do not. Their goal isn't to bludgeon the rogue systems into line except when completely unavoidable.
> 
> Of note, they didn't overthrow the government of Geonosis either. Obi-wan at least clearly views the Jedi as actual honorable chivalry style knights, and not just wizards with super swords. Anakin meanwhile seems to look at them as being obligated to the Republic and to serve as best they are able.


They did arrest the single most powerful (public) ruler on Geonosis, and it's not clear who exactly was in charge of the public facing parts of Poggle's job in his absence. Of course Geonosis' government, or lack of one to be more specific, is such that I'm not sure they could overthrow it in any meaningful way. Pretty sure that Hutt space has more of a tangible government than Geonosis foes as a planet.

----------


## Keltest

Umbara did seem to have it's own military, while Onderon seems to rely mostly on the battle droids. That may be the difference.

----------


## Grim Portent

I think Umbara is supposed to be on some important Hyperspace routes, so letting it secede would cut the Republic off from various important routes. Which is kind of a good enough reason to prevent them seceding, depending on how important you view the whole self determination vs stopping the Sith thing.

A similar thing happened with Kashyyk/Trandosha, the system they're in was of vital strategic importance because of the amount of control it gives over travel.


EDIT: Went and checked, Umbara seems to only be relevant because of mineral resources and advanced technology. Though them seceding as a response to their 
 (Republic loyalist) senator being murdered by a Republic loyalist Rodian as part of a whole scandal might have made the matter one of public image for the Republic as well. Letting Umbara go with the narrative that the Republic failed them so heavily when they had been so highly in favour of defeating the CIS would be a pretty bad look.

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## Mechalich

It's worth mentioning that there are neutral systems, and the show expends a considerable amount of effort - the entire Mandalore plot - dealing with that concept. Onderon, in fact, was a neutral system and has only recently chosen to ally itself with the CIS. This means that Onderon has chosen, albeit not in any sort of democratic manner, to make itself an enemy of the Republic and it is a legitimate military target as a result. 

Obi-Wan is engaged in some complex parsing here, some of which has to do with the difference between planetary sovereignty and the authority of the Republic as the government of the galaxy as a whole. His objection seems to be that it is perfectly legitimate for Republic forces to assault and occupy Onderon, as a CIS allied world, but not to interfere directly in the internal politics of said world by fostering a rebellion against the local leadership. There's something to this, though it's stunningly impractical in the breach, and of course the CIS isn't playing by any such principle and is only too happy to bring planets into its fold through extortion, threats, and other illegal means.

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## Fyraltari

> Keep in mind that the Jedi know that the CIS is a puppet state for the Sith, but most people do not. Their goal isn't to bludgeon the rogue systems into line except when completely unavoidable.


But it is the Republic's goal and they serve the Republic.



> Of note, they didn't overthrow the government of Geonosis either.


they arrested Poggle and killed Karina.



> It's worth mentioning that there are neutral systems, and the show expends a considerable amount of effort - the entire Mandalore plot - dealing with that concept. Onderon, in fact, was a neutral system and has only recently chosen to ally itself with the CIS.


No it was not, Lux's mother was a member of the Republic's senate, until the begnning of the war and a big supoorter of Dooku's. And his father was killed in action, fighting for the CIS a whole-ass
year before he met Ahsoka for the first time in this war that lasted under three years and isn't over yet. Onderon has fought for the CIS since the beginning it looks like.




> This means that Onderon has chosen, albeit not in any sort of democratic manner, to make itself an enemy of the Republic and it is a legitimate military target as a result. 
> Obi-Wan is engaged in some complex parsing here, some of which has to do with the difference between planetary sovereignty and the authority of the Republic as the government of the galaxy as a whole. His objection seems to be that it is perfectly legitimate for Republic forces to assault and occupy Onderon, as a CIS allied world, but not to interfere directly in the internal politics of said world by fostering a rebellion against the local leadership.


What would be the point of conquering a place if you leave the previous rulers in charge?

----------


## Mechalich

> No it was not, Lux's mother was a member of the Republic's senate, until the begnning of the war and a big supoorter of Dooku's. And his father was killed in action, fighting for the CIS a whole-ass
> year before he met Ahsoka for the first time in this war that lasted under three years and isn't over yet. Onderon has fought for the CIS since the beginning it looks like.


The Onderon Civil War plot happens in 19 BBY, the final year of the Clone Wars. The previous ruler was neutral. The Separatists invaded and installed Sanjay Rash as the new king - as explained in this episode. They may very well have occurred in the opening days of the Clone Wars. The CIS made huge gains in the very early portion of the war because the Republic had not yet fully mobilized the Clones and much of their materiel was isolated on Kamino and Rothana, which are remote. 




> What would be the point of conquering a place if you leave the previous rulers in charge?


Lots of reasons, but the obvious one is that taking control of the existing bureaucracy is far more efficient, in the short term, with regard to utilizing the resources of the location you just conquered. Also, the current ruler can be made to swear oaths to obey you, which may be a better binding mechanism than trying to persuade someone new. Historically this sort of conquest was actually more common than conquests where entirely new regimes were installed by the conquerors.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The Onderon Civil War plot happens in 19 BBY, the final year of the Clone Wars. The previous ruler was neutral.


that makes no sense with what was established prior. Mina Bontieri was a member of the republic Senate until the war, therefore Onderon was originally a member of the Separatists.

quote]The Separatists invaded and installed Sanjay Rash as the new king - as explained in this episode.[/quote]
No, the episode says the king made Onderon join the CIS. Although it does imply there was some sort of (likely Sith-backed) coup beforehand.





> Lots of reasons, but the obvious one is that taking control of the existing bureaucracy is far more efficient, in the short term, with regard to utilizing the resources of the location you just conquered.


The bureaucracy loyal to your ennemies?



> Also, the current ruler can be made to swear oaths to obey you, which may be a better binding mechanism than trying to persuade someone new. Historically this sort of conquest was actually more common than conquests where entirely new regimes were installed by the conquerors.


That doesn't mesh with how the Republic is shown to function, though. e§specially since they consider joining the separatists to be a crime in the first place.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

yeah, this one only makes sense if the planet is neutral, but I guess the writers didn't want the Jedi being doing under the table dealings but still wanted their asymmetric warfare plot.

----------


## Keltest

Havent we seen ostensibly neutral systems still have senators on the Republic senate? Why couldnt they have senators on the CIS senate as well?

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## dancrilis

> The bureaucracy loyal to your ennemies?


The bureaucracy is unlikely to be loyal to anyone - as government policy changes the bureaucracy and the people within it would adapt to handle that change, this is true for a new king who may be vastly different then the old king, an external power claiming control, vastly different democratically elected parties coming to power, etc.

A bureaucracy that is loyal to something other then preserving the bureaucracy could be seen as a symptom of a failed/failing society.

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## pendell

> Lots of reasons, but the obvious one is that taking control of the existing bureaucracy is far more efficient, in the short term, with regard to utilizing the resources of the location you just conquered. Also, the current ruler can be made to swear oaths to obey you, which may be a better binding mechanism than trying to persuade someone new. Historically this sort of conquest was actually more common than conquests where entirely new regimes were installed by the conquerors.


In the days of monarchy, the typical practice was to elevate some member of the target country's royal family who had a following within the country but had missed out for some reason or other on the top spot.   You take over, the old king gets pushed aside, your client gets put on the throne as the Rightful King Returned Again,  some portion of the bureaucracy swears loyalty, they run the country more efficiently than you ever could. What's more, they owe you for putting them on the throne, so they are likely to do whatever you ask.  Especially when their bodyguard has members of your own army and there's an "advisor" standing by the throne quietly offering "suggestions" for anything you care about, while leaving the everyday running of the country to the local ruler.   

In history, installing a governor over another country when the governor doesn't understand the culture, customs, speak the language, is a recipe for disaster.   I'll leave you to read of Roman history. That was their thing, sending out retired consuls to govern faraway provinces. They wound up fighting a lot of revolts. 

Putting the exact same ruler in charge, as in this episode, is not at all usual, but it still makes more sense than ruling directly. Ruling a country is a hard business even when you grew up in it. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Fyraltari

> Havent we seen ostensibly neutral systems still have senators on the Republic senate? Why couldnt they have senators on the CIS senate as well?


Yeah, you're right, Manfalore is neutral but had a senator. Which is just nonsense, how could they be neutral in a war involving the Republic if they're part of the Republic, and if they're not part of the Republic how can they have a senator?



> The bureaucracy is unlikely to be loyal to anyone - as government policy changes the bureaucracy and the people within it would adapt to handle that change, this is true for a new king who may be vastly different then the old king, an external power claiming control, vastly different democratically elected parties coming to power, etc.
> 
> A bureaucracy that is loyal to something other then preserving the bureaucracy could be seen as a symptom of a failed/failing society.


Right, I was wrong on that count. However I maintain that it wouldn't make sense for the Republic to keep the Onderonian pro-separatist leadership in place. They've betrayed the Republic once, what would make them think they won't do so again? And why would they get away with high treason?

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## Grim Portent

> Yeah, you're right, Manfalore is neutral but had a senator. Which is just nonsense, how could they be neutral in a war involving the Republic if they're part of the Republic, and if they're not part of the Republic how can they have a senator?


Ah but you do _not_ need to be part of the Republic to have a senator. The Trade Federation has one, the Muun Banking Clans have one, several other megacorps have one despite all being nominally neutral and operating both in and outside of the Republic, several independant but friendly worlds have one. The Republic Senate consists of senators who represent actual constituent worlds and senators who represent parties that are merely powerful enough, or otherwise relevant, to justify having a say in the senate, ostensibly to promote peaceful conflict resolution.

Is it stupid on the face of it? Yes, but it does make sense for a corrupt and truly ancient society to have made all sorts of weird political and legal compromises over the years.


There is also a weird thing going on where the Council of Neutral Systems includes planets that are in the Republic as well as ones outside it, and possibly a few that are ostensibly seperatists. Just because a planet is nominally subject to the Republic doesn't mean it doesn't have enough clout to refuse to take part in various actions. The Republic is something of a loose quasi-democratic federation, with it being largely decentralised and toothless until Palpatine manages to push through various reforms that centralise power under the office of the Supreme Chancellor.

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## Taevyr

I always presumed that "Neutral" in this case means "not wanting to pick sides", similar to how a few states remained nominally neutral during the american civil war (if I remember correctly), from which Lucas took his inspiration. 

Beyond that, it's just star wars (or at least, late republic-era) politics not really being thought out well enough to stand up to closer scrutiny.

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## Keltest

"Neutral" in context seems to mean retaining membership in one government, the other, or both while not committing resources to the war effort directly and refusing to cut trade or political ties with either side. Given the Republic's seeming lack of a standing army prior to the clones, I think its even likely that this ability is written into republic law, since its not like there were any outside powers to deal with for a long time.

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## Thrudd

> Beyond that, it's just star wars (or at least, late republic-era) politics not really being thought out well enough to stand up to closer scrutiny.


I think that's really what's going on. Everyone trying to analyze and figure out what's going on in the setting is mostly chasing after nothing. Lucas certainly never gave much thought to how anything would really work, on any level. It's all about aesthetics, themes, nostalgia and tropes.

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## Kornaki

It's not hard to point to a continent on earth right now where there is a large political/economic bloc, and a large bloc with a strong collective security agreement, and membership is similar but not the same for both of these, and also various countries have weird bespoke membership agreements.

Just multiply that by 10,000 and you probably have the republic.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

Whatever claim Onderon has to neutrality is scuppered as soon as separatist forces prop up the ruler. I think we can blame Dave and Chris for this one.

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## Keltest

> Whatever claim Onderon has to neutrality is scuppered as soon as separatist forces prop up the ruler. I think we can blame Dave and Chris for this one.


That the old king was overthrown with help from the separatists suggests that Onderon was conquered by the separatists, in practice if not in name.


... wasnt the old senator, Padme's friend, one of the ones on the Separatist senate that was advocating for an end to the war and for peace overtures?

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## Fyraltari

> That the old king was overthrown with help from the separatists suggests that Onderon was conquered by the separatists, in practice if not in name.
> 
> 
> ... wasnt the old senator, Padme's friend, one of the ones on the Separatist senate that was advocating for an end to the war and for peace overtures?


Yes. She was also a staunch Separatist and an admirer of Dooku.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 5, Episode 3 : Front Runners*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The Jedi are still observing the rebels' operations inside the city of Izziz. I just want to say that I love how anytime they want to look inconspicuous, the Jedi wear full robes and pull their hoods up, but absolutely nowhere do we ever see a non-Jedi dressed like that. It's like private detectives still thinking long rain coats and wide hats make them unremarkable deecades after they fell out of style. Also, the narrator informs us that the population is afraid of the partisans despite the fact that their attacks have resulted in zero casualties so far. Not very hard to scare for people living ona planet teeming with monsters. Anyway, Ahsoka watches Lux throw an EMP grande at a platoon, Obi-Wan sees Saw gun down two droids who were harassing a random man and Anakin and Rex observes Stila and a couple of redshirts storm some sort of checkpoint. this is apparently the fifth attack this rotation (day? week? average B1 battery life?), which Stila and Anakin think is bound to get some reaction from "King Rash". The camera then pans from their position, over the rooftops to the palace balcony. I don't usually comment on the technical aspects of these episodes, because I'm not savy enough to do so, but that was a beautiful shot. I feel like they're getting more and more comfortable with what they can do on a visual level. Anpther impressive shot like that was Boba going from one end of the train to the other in one shot last season.

Anyway, the king, who's dressed up in some approximation of a Ancient Roman general uniform is informed by his aid (an alien of a species I don't recognize, called Duntop and speaking of himself in the third-person) of the day's attacks. The King is unimpressed but he changes his tone when told his personal carriage was ambushed (huh, we didn't see that happen. My guess is that the Duntop is plotting something against the king). Angered by the seeming attempts against his life, Rash has his predecessor summoned. He seems to believe the guy is in charge of the rebels, even though, as the previous king points out, he's locked up tight and has no contact with the exterior. So of course he tells him he can't call off the attack, that they are the people's will manifest and, as the king, it is his duty to embrace, bend or break it. Yo, can someone remind me why we should root for this guy again?

Jedi and Rebels meet up in their headquarters. Anakin approves their actions but Ahsoka and Kenobi (while overall supportive) are worried that the people are mistaken about what the rebels are doing. Saw thinks they should do more damage and doesn't understand why the people aren't fully backing them yet. Lux and Stila tell him they need to earn their trust first. Lux thinks they need to target something big, to show strength and he's already got a target in mind. the Republicans step out of the room and agree that, while not exactly at the same level as the 501, the rebels have learnt fast and getting results. Kenobi elects to leave Ahsoka behind as an advisor/observer while the other three return to Coruscant and make a first report to the Council. Anakin asks Ahsoka if she _wants_ to stay and to remember her puspose. Hey, Ani knows what's up! Obi-Wan also says the JEdi will continue to supply credits and, well, supplies for a while, but the partisans must gradually become independent from them.

So, what's Lux's target? The city's main power station. destroying it would cut power to most, if not all of the city (hopes their hospitals have emergency generators!), which means the droids will run out of power eventually. Problem is, it's highly protected. Never fear, Saw knows just where to get the necessary intelligence, inside a droid's head! He walks to the last droid in a patrol and just straight-up rips its head off. Points for efficiency. They plug it into a briefcase and get a map of the facility, showing up the troops stationed inside. they just don't have the firepower to take it head on, but if they create enough of a disturbance in town, the droids might send a tank after them (holy riot control, Batman!), which they could then hijack and use to attack the power plant. Yup, these guys _have_ been trained by Anakin Skywalker, alright.

The rebels park a speeder (loaded with EMP-explosives) in the middle of a street and hide, waiting for a patrol to show up. They take them out with only one casualty on their side and let the officer in call for back-up (once he's the only one left, I might add, because B1's are dumber than rocks) before gunning him down. But instead of tanks, destroyer droids show up. They fight and Ahsoka draws her lightsabers in the open. Okay, in the jungle that could slide, but in the city? Now, everyone will know Jedi are involved. Lux and Saw, the only two who aren't pinned move around the droidekas and throw their EMP 'nades like they learnt last episode. Saw's goes through without a problem but not Lux's which he blames on Saw reminding him (and anyone who missed last episode) to throw slow to protect the shield, just as he was about to throw. I feel ya Lux. Stila takes advantage of the droid shooting at the dynamic duo rather than herself to run up to it, launch herself to the ground and pass her arm through the shield to deliver her bomb at the right place. Clever. And now a tank shows up. Stila takes out most of the escort with a few sniper shots, while saw and Lux EMP the tank like they practiced.  A surviving B2 misses Lux on the ground at near point-blank range. That's not important, but I felt like pointing that out.

Saw climbs into the cockpit and starts pressing buttons to no avail. Stila tells him to let her try because "this needs a woman's touch." Wut? She hotwires the tank to boot it up again. SAw just hadn't realized the EMP damages the tank too. On the one hand, duh, but on the other I'm surprised REx didn't teach them how to get one running again. Saw drives them to the plaza before the power plant and Stila and Ahsoka take position near a statue. From there, the sharpshooter starts firing at the droids to get their attention while the Jedi protects her. Saw just rolls over some more droids and blows up the reinforced doors to the plant. However, he need to reload before he can damage the generator proper, and some commando droids swarm them. They manage to take them out before I have time to wonder where the unnamed rebel that was with them got to, and Saw blows up the generator.

The city goes dark (it's nighttime) while the king and Duntop look from the palace. Rash seems confident he can spin that into something positive for him. The rebels, using Sam Fisher's nightgoggles, take out random droids throught the city, to the crowd's cheers. A bunch of civilians even turned a troop trnasport into a big bonfire. How the hell did they manage that? Back at base, the rebels celebrate, in company of the holograms of Obi-Wan, Anakin and Rex. Lux and Stila start hugging which make Ahsoka do a sad face, something Anakin notices while Rex and Kenobi discuss how good a leader Stila makes. Ani tells Ahoska to remember to stay focused, she tells him she'w trying but can't and to her surprise he says he understands, but she needs to put purpose ahead of her emotions. Kenobi spoils the mood a little by reminding everyone that the separatists are going to strike back hard, now, but they're undaunted. Skywalker tells them they need to rally the people, inspire them, and represent them. Obi-wAn thinks they will need a leader for that. Meh, arguable.

Meanwhile Rash is on the holophone with dooku, who isn't exactly pleased with his performance so far. The king asks for better troops than his droids. Dooku agrees: he'll send him better droids and a better commande. He introduces a tactical droid called Kalami, who should succeed where the king has failed. A droid with and actual name instead of a number? Is that even legal? Also, the fact that Kalami was already in the room and painted in Onderon's colors make me think they were already planning to send him there. Dooku hangs up on the king who looks upset by this. Back at the rebels, the zoom conference is over, Lux and Saw are having their usual disagreement over wheterh they should focus on fighting or garnering support while stila says they can do both and start recruiting while they're at it. One rebel nominates her for leadership, almost everybody present votes in favour. Saw congratulates her and storms off. Lux tells Stila he just needs some time alone but she runs after him. Ahsoka asks her why and she answers that he's her brother. End of the episode. What a weird "reveal", it's not like they ever really butted heads before.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

This is nice. I'm still a bit off-put by the show's insistance that "this is totally shady guys!" when the rebels are being abolutely non-lethal. The villains are clearly just being set-up for the next (couple of?) episode(s?) while the episode focuses on the rebels' dynamic and growing teamwork.

I really like that Anakin immediately sees that Ahsoka is crushing on Lux and is trying to help her manage her feelings. It can be seen a bit hypocritical of him to tell her to stay focused when he's in a secret marriage, but given how protective he is of her in general it's understandable that he wants her to avoid what on some level he probably still sees as a mistake. But at the same time, of course he's not going to forbid anything, because he's been there too, and I think, at this point he trusts her to make the correct choice on her own. So right now, he's mostly just there for her to, maybe not confide in, but show support which is important because it's something he himself completely lacks in the Jedi Order. And of course, it was easier for him because Padmé reciprocates while, Lux is clearly not insensible to Stila. Nice character work from a couple interactions, me likey.


Next up: *The Soft War*

----------


## Keltest

Urban warfare is dangerous to civilians by definition. The separatists are bringing in tanks, for crying out loud, and the rebels are hijacking them and turning them against civilian infrastructure. One of those things misses and takes out an apartment building, dozens of people could die. Heck, even regular blasters are pretty inaccurate, especially when wielded by droids, as you noted.

----------


## Grim Portent

In this instance the issue is trying to do a freedom fighters/terrorists morally ambiguous arc in a show that's not willing to go to the lengths required to make the rebels seem like terrorists from the enemy perspective.

The people of Onderon seem to resent the CIS presence, but not enough to actually fight against it, but get scared by the rebels being willing to do so? It's a bit weird, as the general idea seems to be that no one likes King Rash, and they'd all rather have Dendub back, just not enough to fight about it.

I think it would have made more sense if the people were generally pro-rebel, but too scared of CIS crackdowns to get involved as presented. Or to go the full length and have the rebels killing the odd person involved in the occupation. Assassinating a CIS collaborator would be a bit dark for Clone Wars, but it isn't like the show never plays with ideas like murder and assassination.


Saw in his later appearances outside the Clone Wars is a good 'evil man on the good side' kind of guy. Hates the Empire so much that he's willing to cross almost any moral line to fight them, and I do think the Onderon story would have made more sense if the rebels there were similar to what Saw eventually becomes. As it is the Jedi don't have to compromise their morality to help the rebels at all, they just do the same sort of espionage/commando work that we see them do all the time.

----------


## Keltest

> In this instance the issue is trying to do a freedom fighters/terrorists morally ambiguous arc in a show that's not willing to go to the lengths required to make the rebels seem like terrorists from the enemy perspective.
> 
> The people of Onderon seem to resent the CIS presence, but not enough to actually fight against it, but get scared by the rebels being willing to do so? It's a bit weird, as the general idea seems to be that no one likes King Rash, and they'd all rather have Dendub back, just not enough to fight about it.
> 
> I think it would have made more sense if the people were generally pro-rebel, but too scared of CIS crackdowns to get involved as presented. Or to go the full length and have the rebels killing the odd person involved in the occupation. Assassinating a CIS collaborator would be a bit dark for Clone Wars, but it isn't like the show never plays with ideas like murder and assassination.
> 
> 
> Saw in his later appearances outside the Clone Wars is a good 'evil man on the good side' kind of guy. Hates the Empire so much that he's willing to cross almost any moral line to fight them, and I do think the Onderon story would have made more sense if the rebels there were similar to what Saw eventually becomes. As it is the Jedi don't have to compromise their morality to help the rebels at all, they just do the same sort of espionage/commando work that we see them do all the time.


Perhaps it goes back to Onderon nominally having joined the separatists voluntarily. The original king joins the CIS or otherwise declares his support, but then their senator gets killed and some of their people get offed as soldiers, and support for the war wanes. Dooku, not wanting to let Onderon go, instigates a regime change and places a military garrison. The people arent fond of it, but theyre basically their troops, right? And then the new king turns out to be awful, so people like Saw start having their dark mutterings, but most of the populace still isnt ready to abandon the CIS since so far as they know, the separatists arent directly responsible for the new oppression, the king is at worst just misusing legitimate resources.

Based on their lack of leadership and arguments about getting the people on their side, that also strongly indicates that the rebels currently have no public propaganda. So the only thing the populace are hearing is that a bunch of violence is happening without really understanding the objective, and the only one giving their side is, of course, the CIS puppet government.

----------


## Mechalich

> Perhaps it goes back to Onderon nominally having joined the separatists voluntarily. The original king joins the CIS or otherwise declares his support, but then their senator gets killed and some of their people get offed as soldiers, and support for the war wanes. Dooku, not wanting to let Onderon go, instigates a regime change and places a military garrison. The people arent fond of it, but theyre basically their troops, right? And then the new king turns out to be awful, so people like Saw start having their dark mutterings, but most of the populace still isnt ready to abandon the CIS since so far as they know, the separatists arent directly responsible for the new oppression, the king is at worst just misusing legitimate resources.


Yeah, one thing this arc highlights is that the impact of the change from Republic rule to Separatist rule is actually fairly modest on a lot of worlds and the balance of their populations simply aren't inclined to take up arms in defense as a result. This is particularly true on planets, like Onderon, that aren't of any great significance to the galactic economy. Onderon is a jungle-dominated world full of dangerous animals where the population is largely confined to a small number of fortified settlements. Militarily, it's of negligible importance. Now, from a Legends perspective (and the only reason Onderon appears in TCW was because some writer thought the pre-existing Legends material was cool, so that matters), Onderon is a world of historical importance with cultural influence. The ability to say 'Onderon sided with the Republic/Separatists' is important to galaxy-scale propaganda even though actually controlling Onderon doesn't provide any assets or positional advantage. 

The result is that Onderon's nominal allegiance matters more to everyone else than it actually matters to the people of Onderon - to whom rule by the Republic vs the CIS has only modest impacts on their everyday lives. So this bizarre proxy war happens instead of a more typical hot war in the star system.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Urban warfare is dangerous to civilians by definition. The separatists are bringing in tanks, for crying out loud, and the rebels are hijacking them and turning them against civilian infrastructure. One of those things misses and takes out an apartment building, dozens of people could die. Heck, even regular blasters are pretty inaccurate, especially when wielded by droids, as you noted.


Execept that:
A) If you're worried about your ennemy attacking civilians (even by mistake) if you fight them, then you shouldn't be fighting at all.
B) The GAR had no problem fighting in urban environments on Ryloth, Christophsys and Umbara, all battles Obi-Wan was personally involved with (even besieging a city off-screen for that last one). 



> In this instance the issue is trying to do a freedom fighters/terrorists morally ambiguous arc in a show that's not willing to go to the lengths required to make the rebels seem like terrorists from the enemy perspective.


Yeah, so far it looks like they consider all forms of guerilla warfare to inherently be terrorism (which completely ignores that regular militaries can (and often) do terrorism just fine). So the end result looks like "Is it okay to fight in a war without wearing an uniform?". This would make much more sens if Saw and Anakin were arguing for assasinations or bombings, but they seem unwilling to portray the Republic in a bad light, or to make Anakin unsympathetic.





> Saw in his later appearances outside the Clone Wars is a good 'evil man on the good side' kind of guy. Hates the Empire so much that he's willing to cross almost any moral line to fight them


Does he? Because in _Rogue One_ they talk a big talk about him being too extreme for the Alliance but forget to have him do anything that's actually morally questionnable, while they have Cassian shoot a wounded informant. And in _Rebels_, they have Kallus' backstory be that he was traumatized by a Lasat working for Saw who killed his entire unit, but A) unit of imperial soldiers, so whatever, B) Not even Saw himself or one of his men but a mercenary he had hired.

So is there actually anythin out that portrays Saw doing something actually reprehensible in the name of overthrowing the Empire?



> Perhaps it goes back to Onderon nominally having joined the separatists voluntarily. The original king joins the CIS or otherwise declares his support, but then their senator gets killed and some of their people get offed as soldiers, and support for the war wanes. Dooku, not wanting to let Onderon go, instigates a regime change and places a military garrison. The people arent fond of it, but theyre basically their troops, right? And then the new king turns out to be awful, so people like Saw start having their dark mutterings, but most of the populace still isnt ready to abandon the CIS since so far as they know, the separatists arent directly responsible for the new oppression, the king is at worst just misusing legitimate resources.


The first episode states that it was Rash who joined with the CIS. The insurgents argue he wasn't the legitimate king when that happened so they see the CIS presence as an occupation force, which is also how the previous king described them in his one scene so far.

----------


## Grim Portent

> Does he? Because in _Rogue One_ they talk a big talk about him being too extreme for the Alliance but forget to have him do anything that's actually morally questionnable, while they have Cassian shoot a wounded informant. And in _Rebels_, they have Kallus' backstory be that he was traumatized by a Lasat working for Saw who killed his entire unit, but A) unit of imperial soldiers, so whatever, B) Not even Saw himself or one of his men but a mercenary he had hired.
> 
> So is there actually anythin out that portrays Saw doing something actually reprehensible in the name of overthrowing the Empire?


Traumatically mind probing a guy comes to mind. As I recall it was stated that the guy was at risk of going permanently insane as a result.

Also his willingness to threaten the last surviving geonosian with torture and extinction IIRC, partly in the belief he had to know something about why his people had been exterminated by the empire and that it must be important,* and partly because of Clone Wars era prejudice.

*Which to be fair to him, it was pretty important.

He's still a rather milquetoast example of an extremist, but Star Wars has generally shied away from the seriously morally ambiguous stuff outside of comics and novels, especially when it's a nominal 'good guy,' so he's about as good (awkward choice of word here) as evil men on the good side get.

----------


## Mechalich

> He's still a rather milquetoast example of an extremist, but Star Wars has generally shied away from the seriously morally ambiguous stuff outside of comics and novels, especially when it's a nominal 'good guy,' so he's about as good (awkward choice of word here) as evil men on the good side get.


Star Wars has been particularly careful about protecting the moral standing of the Rebel Alliance, compared to other factions. There's a reason for this, since the Rebel Alliance's casus belli for rebellion is based entirely on moral grounds. The Galactic Empire wasn't illegal (Palpatine manipulated the government extensively, but that's really hard to prove), nor was it engaged in an war of aggression against the people the Rebellion represents (the Empire was engaged in numerous wars of aggression against other people, including nominally independent states and CIS holdouts, but these were generally not part of the Rebel Alliance). The Empire has to be opposed because it is evil, and in order for this to work that means the Rebels need to be good. Moral ambiguity imperils the story.

There's a good comparison here with SWTOR where there are solid reasons for those on the Republic side to oppose the Sith Empire even if they are morally dubious or repugnant, because the Sith Empire intends to conquer them. SWTOR does indeed have a number of highly dubious people of the Republic side, and in a fully light side playthrough the Outlander regularly rejects overtures for any number of questionable projects.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Star Wars has been particularly careful about protecting the moral standing of the Rebel Alliance, compared to other factions. There's a reason for this, since the Rebel Alliance's casus belli for rebellion is based entirely on moral grounds. The Galactic Empire wasn't illegal (Palpatine manipulated the government extensively, but that's really hard to prove), nor was it engaged in an war of aggression against the people the Rebellion represents (the Empire was engaged in numerous wars of aggression against other people, including nominally independent states and CIS holdouts, but these were generally not part of the Rebel Alliance). The Empire has to be opposed because it is evil, and in order for this to work that means the Rebels need to be good. Moral ambiguity imperils the story.
> 
> There's a good comparison here with SWTOR where there are solid reasons for those on the Republic side to oppose the Sith Empire even if they are morally dubious or repugnant, because the Sith Empire intends to conquer them. SWTOR does indeed have a number of highly dubious people of the Republic side, and in a fully light side playthrough the Outlander regularly rejects overtures for any number of questionable projects.


Indeed, moral ambiguity is kind of the last thing what is probably the archetypical good rebel vs. evil empire story of our age needs. pretty sure there are other stories where there is moral ambiguity on this kind of thing without tainting peoples memories of what is probably a classic tale for a lot of people.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Traumatically mind probing a guy comes to mind. As I recall it was stated that the guy was at risk of going permanently insane as a result.


Fair point. I don't remember any talk of long-time damage, but that may be because Bodhi was completely fine like, ten minutes later.




> Also his willingness to threaten the last surviving geonosian with torture and extinction IIRC, partly in the belief he had to know something about why his people had been exterminated by the empire and that it must be important,* and partly because of Clone Wars era prejudice.
> 
> *Which to be fair to him, it was pretty important.


Huh, I forgot about that.




> Star Wars has been particularly careful about protecting the moral standing of the Rebel Alliance, compared to other factions. There's a reason for this, since the Rebel Alliance's casus belli for rebellion is based entirely on moral grounds. The Galactic Empire wasn't illegal (Palpatine manipulated the government extensively, but that's really hard to prove), nor was it engaged in an war of aggression against the people the Rebellion represents (the Empire was engaged in numerous wars of aggression against other people, including nominally independent states and CIS holdouts, but these were generally not part of the Rebel Alliance). The Empire has to be opposed because it is evil, and in order for this to work that means the Rebels need to be good. Moral ambiguity imperils the story.





> Indeed, moral ambiguity is kind of the last thing what is probably the archetypical good rebel vs. evil empire story of our age needs. pretty sure there are other stories where there is moral ambiguity on this kind of thing without tainting peoples memories of what is probably a classic tale for a lot of people.


The Original Trilogy operates on a clearly mythological level. The Empire is simply this evil sorceror, his dark knight buddy and their flunkies dressed up in pseudo-nazi garbs. The Rebels are good vecause they oppose them. There is absolutely no political element at all. Note how the Alliance's actual goal isn't ever stated (they want to overthrow the Emperor, yes, but it's never even said they want to end the Empire). At most there is the notion that things were better in Kenobi's good old days, but that's it. When it comes to ambiguous morality, there's Vader's redemption arc and the retcon about the Jedi lying to Luke about his parentage (oh, and Yoda telling Luke to let his friends be tortured to death to finish his training), but that's it.

Now the Prequel Trilogy was much more political. Lucas could have had the Emperor be a completely external force to the Republic he overthrew, an invader who lured Anakin to his side. And that would have worked with what we're shown in the Original Trilogy. But he decided instead to tell a tale of how a Republic could willingly hand itself to a tyrant. And this introduced some moral ambiguity. And honestly, I respect that. Turns out the predecessors of the stormtroopers and royal guards fought side-by-side with the Jedi. Turns out Coruscant had a seedy underbelly full of drug-dealers and other unsavory types. Turns out Jedi could just lob a woman's arm off in public, say "Jedi business, get back to your drinks" and no one would care. Turns out the Jedi themselves weren't doing so well (with Yoda lamenting their growing arrogance, something shown a couple of time in the movies themselves, and Windu unwittingly parroting Sidious), etc. 

Sidious's rise to power, while very unlikely to be legal (I sincerely doubt the Republic's constitution, fundamental law, or whatever document draws the limits of the power granted to the Senate and the Chancellorship allows for the Chancellor to be crowned Emperor by acclamation) is entirely internal and his grand plan is based on the tactics used by autocrats all over the world to gain and consolidate power (point to a crisis one you may even have created or exacerbated and position yourself as a strongman who could deal with it IF the restrictions on your authority were temporarily lifted). There's absolutely no irony in the popularity of "So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause." It's a baller line.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't _Dune_, but there's something there. Alas, "good idea, but bad execution", if that's not the Prequels in a nutshell, I don't know what is.

And of course the tale of Analin Skywalker becoming Darth Vader ought tonbe a dark one, rife with moral ambiguity. Too bad it isn't.

With this added political baggage it's only natural to intoduce some of that to the Rebel Alliance, and I will never stop complaining how much of a wasted opportunity it was not to draw a clear connection between the Separatist Alliance and the Rebel Alliance, these are two factions from the same rough area fightin the same ennemy for similar causes and you're telling me no one who was part of the first one joined the second? Come on!

----------


## Mechalich

> (oh, and Yoda telling Luke to let his friends be tortured to death to finish his training)


Whoa now, Yoda told Luke to let his friends be tortured to death so that he _honored their sacrifice_ "You will destroy all for which they have fought, and suffered." Han and Leia were willing to die to preserve Luke from Vader, and by going to Cloud City Luke offered himself up to Vader's hands. Yoda thought Luke would die in the process and that he would not necessarily save his friends. Luke does help - he removes Vader from the board for a critical hour or so, but ultimately it's Lando's choice to save or condemn Leia and Chewie (and later on, Han), and even then R2-D2's ingenuity is required for them to overcome the failsafe Vader has in place. Yoda was ultimately wrong - which is an important piece of foreshadowing that Force visions of the future aren't always right - but his motives were quite reasonable.




> Sidious's rise to power, while very unlikely to be legal (I sincerely doubt the Republic's constitution, fundamental law, or whatever document draws the limits of the power granted to the Senate and the Chancellorship allows for the Chancellor to be crowned Emperor by acclamation) is entirely internal and his grand plan is based on the tactics used by autocrats all over the world to gain and consolidate power (point to a crisis one you may even have created or exacerbated and position yourself as a strongman who could deal with it IF the restrictions on your authority were temporarily lifted). There's absolutely no irony in the popularity of "So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause." It's a baller line.


The scene in the Senate in RotS is mostly a bit of political theater. Notably, Sidious says "The Republic _will_ be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire!" meaning that this would happen in the future. In Legends the full text of his speech was much longer and contains the specific claim that there will be a new constitution. This is called the Imperial Charter and exists in both versions of canon. So, from a legal perspective what Palpatine did was declare a constitutional convention and then got the Senate to pass a constitution in which he was declared Emperor. This is _technically_ legal, and there are a number of historical figures who have done basically exactly this. That part that is unclear is how legitimate Palpatine's majority actually was versus how much depended upon bribery, intimidation, manipulation, propaganda, and the outright elimination of formerly CIS sectors as a voting block. 




> With this added political baggage it's only natural to intoduce some of that to the Rebel Alliance, and I will never stop complaining how much of a wasted opportunity it was not to draw a clear connection between the Separatist Alliance and the Rebel Alliance, these are two factions from the same rough area fightin the same ennemy for similar causes and you're telling me no one who was part of the first one joined the second? Come on!


The aren't from the same area, actually, and that's important. The CIS is a Rim Faction, but the Rebel Alliance originated in the Core - Bail Organa and Mon Mothma (and in Legends Garm Bel Iblis) were the Senators of culturally influential Core Worlds. Additionally, the CIS was dominated by aliens while the Rebel Alliance was predominantly human. Many Separatist holdouts did not support the Rebellion - a point made explicitly in Rebels.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 5, episode 4: The Soft War*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

we open with Lux and Ahsoka placing holographic devices in Izziz's marketplace while Stilla, a squad of partisans and Saw ambush a droid convoy. They've switched to actual explosives now, and Saw uses some to take out a tank by himself as Rex taught them. Stilla addresses the crowd from the rooftop with her speech relayed by the aforementioned devices. She calls King Rash a traitor who bought his crown by sailing the planet to the Seppies and calls for the return of King Dendup. In the palace king Rash (who's taking this as well as you'd expect) is meeting with his aide, the droid general, Kalani, and the leader of the local military, general Tendon who gives off strong Pelleaon energy. Tendon thinks they can negotiate with "the terrorists" if they phase out the droid soldiers for his own, native troops, Kalani and the king shoot the idea down. Tendon has identified Stilla, Saw and Lux as being the leaders of the movement, but Rash still thinks Dendup is somehow in charge. He has him summoned again so he and Kalani can order him to tell "his followers" to surrender. He again tells them he can't actually do that. Sa Rash changes plans.

Cut to the rebels' headquarters, one of them tells everybody that Dendup is scheduled for execution the next day on the main square. Ahsoka thinks that the Separatists are going to turn him into a martyr, but Saw rejects the notion of just letting the old man die. Stilla thinks they should save him during the execution, while he's out of the palace and in front of all the city. Saw thinks that this is precisely what the Separatists would expect and decide to free the king on his own, over everybody's objection. Stilla tasks the one who brought the news to follow Saw from a distance, though.

In the evening, Lux tries to reassure Stilla abouts Saw, but she dould rather plan the next day's operation (wise). And she gets flustered when Lux just stares at her, like a puppy. She asks him to leave her alone for the moment, he leaves and they both look back at the other when they've got their back turned. Menwhile Ahsoka is on the holophone with her master and her master's master. She's worried about the rebels divided themselves and risking so much over just one man. Obi-Wan says the king represents hope and is critical to their success. Whatever. She says she feels responsible for them, but they instruct her to only step in if strictly necessary, the rebels must suceed on their own for this little experiment to mean anything. She agrees.

Saw's managed to sneak to the foot of the palace's walls and uses a grappling hook to scale them up to a terrace where Dendup just so happens to be pacing back and forth.  Guerrera easily takes out the single B1 watching over the deposed king and kneels before him. Dendup asks him if he's "one of the meddlers creating disorder and interfering with the affairs of the throne"... Are we 100% sure we want this guy back in charge guys? I'm just saying, this is a great opportunity to try a democracy. Just throwing it out there. he says he feels responsible for the Separatists being there in the first place because he had to choose between the republic or the confederacy (who he sees as equally corrupts) or have the choice be made for him, but he chose nothing. Saw tells him their movement is growing and backed by the Jedi. The latter point motivates the king enough to agree to help the rebels (if he's such a big fan of the Jedi why not side with the Republic?), but Saw's hook is intercepted by one-way shields, triggering an alarm that summons a handful of droidekas. The resistant tasked with watching over Saw witnesses the ruckuss, draws the logical conclusion and runs back to base.

She gets there just as Ahsoka explains to the assembled rebels that she won't be taking part in the plan stilla just explained to them, per her orders. Lux wants to save Saw, but Stilla says they have to focus on saving Dendup, that that's what her brother would tell them to do. Ahsoka agrees, telling them that purpose must come before feelings (something Anakin keeps telling her). Come the morning, Tendon and Kalani are interrogating Saw (via electroshocks) to no avail. Tendon makes them stop and tells Kalani his methods will only antagonize the Onderonians further. The droid does not care. Later yet, Tendon plays good cop by interrogating Saw in a more comfortable environment, giving him a drink and all. Saw accuses him of failing his duties to protect the people by aligning himself with the Seppies. Tendon says Rash is the king and what he says goes (again, big Pelleaon vibes). Saw counters that Dendup is the true king, but denies following his orders. He says he and the general have the same future: free men or servants of the CIS. Tendon says he's free and calls him a terrorist. "Resistance _isn't_ terrorism." Took three episodes, but someone finally gets it right.

The population has gathered on the main square to watch the executions. We see the rebels mingling with the crowd (Tano is also there). The manner of execution is a force-field like thing the condemned puts his neck through and that can become "solid" on demand when struck by two magnaguards in unisson, severing the head from the shoulders. A bit overcomplicated, but okay. Rash and Kalani are directing the executions personally while Tendon watches disappovingly from a balcony. Rash makes the expected kind of speech, then mockingly tells Dendup he hopes he finds forgiveness in "the next world". Huh, we don't often hear about non-Force religions and what, if any, afterlife non force-users expect to get. Stilla waits for the last possible moment (literally after Rash has given the order to execute) to intervene for reasons beyond mortal ken. Her plan is to stand up on Lux's shoulders so she can shoot at the executing droids without hitting the crowd. Lux then throws smoke grenades at the droids and prisoners and the rebels rush them. They take out the guards and rescue Saw and Dendup and why is nobody killing rash he's right there defenseless just shoot him in the face it wouldn't even take two seconds seriously. They try to escape throught the crowds but are stopped by a squad of B2s who shoot down the one rebel who had a little screen-time.

And by squad, I mean seven droids. Seven droids who the episodes wants me to consider as more dangerous than the twenty B1s plus a handful of magnaguards they just smoked with ease. Also the rebels are suddenly down to the named characters plus one redshirt when they had like, six more guys just a second ago. Kalani tells them to surrender or die. Weren't you in the middle of executing them? Just kill them now, you fool! And dendup has them lay down their weapons! The crowd starts booing and Rash tells them to calm down, they're going to execute the traitors. Good thing they laid down their weapons, King Dumbass! Ahsoka runs to intervene, but Tendon and a platoon of Onderonian soldiers arrive first. The General calls Rash a snake and holds the king at spear(?) point. He says he's no longer a traitor and takes the usurper, Kalani and the other droids prisoners. The crowd cheers.

Tendon tells Dendup and the rebels to go away and he orders his troops to go with them while he keeps Rash's with him to stop the Separatists from following them. Why? You have the entire Separatist leadership prisoner, the local army is with you, the "rightful" king is with you, the crowd is cheering you on and the palace is _right there_. That's it, you've won, just take over. Why are you running away when you're winning? Tendon stays alone with Rash, the crowd and the droids who are all pointing their guns at him. Rash tells him he'll be shot as soon as he releases him. Wow, you make a good point as to why he shouldn't release you but keep you prisoner and take you with him, then. Tendon starts panicking until Ahsoka Force-jumps in there and Force-pushes all the droids to the ground. "Jedi!" yells Rash in surprise. Did no one tell him about the rebel waving blue lightsabers around? Ahsoka tells Tendon to follow her, which he does, after shoving Rash to the ground. Why are you letting him go!? Rash yells at the droids to go after them and kill them but the crowd starts yelling at him and physically stopping the B2s from pursuing the fugitives.

Back at headquarters, Dendup asks Tendon "why now?" to which he simply says it was time for a new approach. Stilla and Tendon tell Dendup he has the army's and the rebels' loyalty. he thanks them and tells Lux his mother would be proud of him. Dendup says they will have to win the hearts of the people (seems already done, if we're being honest) and that the Separatists will strike harder at them, but they're not afraid. While everyone is rejoicing, Lux tells Ahsoka he knew she'd get involved, she asks if she's that predictable "only to me." They share a look. Later Ahsoka tells her masters the separatists definitely know Jedi are involved now and asks for reinforcement, but Anakin says that's up to the council. end of the episode.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

So, did they fix the powerplant or what? How are all these droids still working?

This episode was pretty good, but the general plot-mandated drop in intelligence in the battle at the end was pretty annoying. Also, Rash's over-the-top movements and speech are kind of odd, making him look like he's from a comedic early 2000s video game or something.

The episode wants me to buy that Dendup is a wise leader whose return to power I should root for, but so far he's shown a lack of care for the wishes of the people under his authority, contempt for the people fighting in his name and has admitted to his inaction being responsible for this mess in the first place, so I'm finding it pretty hard to root for him.

Saw's recknlessness is well-handed and the Ahsoka/Lux/Stilla love triangle is not as annoying as I thought.


Next up: *Tipping points*

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## Keltest

I think the thing with the old king seeming less than amazing is deliberate. This is the guy who joined the CIS after all, and is responsible for a non-trivial part of Onderon's self inflicted problems. Putting him back in charge with no other changes wont magically fix everything. You want to root for him because he isnt actively malicious like the current king, but only because he's the less bad of two choices. The problem was never that Onderon was conquered and occupied by a hostile power, because technically it isnt.

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## Fyraltari

> I think the thing with the old king seeming less than amazing is deliberate. This is the guy who joined the CIS after all,


Err, the shows is pretty clear that Rash is the one who joined with the CIS. Dendup says he refused to pick a side.



> You want to root for him [...] but only because he's the less bad of two choices.


Oh, you have _no_ idea why that notion pisses me off so much right now.
But like I said in the recap, this looks like a great opportunity to get rid of the kingship.

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## Keltest

> Err, the shows is pretty clear that Rash is the one who joined with the CIS. Dendup says he refused to pick a side


Err... Onderon was, according to Wookieepedia, one of the original systems that broke away as part of the CIS at the start of the war. They had a senator on the Separatist senate. There was a whole plot around that, remember?

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## Fyraltari

> Err... Onderon was, according to Wookieepedia, one of the original systems that broke away as part of the CIS at the start of the war. They had a senator on the Separatist senate. There was a whole plot around that, remember?


Yup. I do member. This doesn't stop this episode from having Steela say Rash sold out Onderon to the Separatists for the crown and Dendup saying he chose neither the Republic nor Confederacy when he had the choice. Likewise in the first episode of this arc, when Kenobi says the Onderonian king willingly joined the CIS, Saw argues that Rash is illegitimate so that doesn't count. The arc has been pretty consistant on this point. You are right that this is not what Lux's introductory episode implies.

The only way I can make some sense of this whole mess is this:
A)The Neutral systems are consistuent systems of the Republic who haven't joined the CIS but have refused to support the Republic's war effort, which I guess is legal and not treason somehow? 
B)King Dendup, not being a fan of the Republic but not liking the CIS either initially put Onderon in this category. Presumably over the objections of the Bontaris who are CIS sympathisans.
C)Dooku sponsors a coup placing his puppet Rash on the throne, on the condition that Rash commits Onderon to the CIS. Which he does.
D)A pro-Dendup, anti-CIS, vaguely pro-Republic resistance movement is founded and lead by the Guerrera siblings.
E)Mina Bonteri is assassinated by Dooku.
F)Lux joins the resistance.

If this is correct, one may wonder what Mina thought of Rash and his rule.

----------


## Keltest

A plot hole? In my Star Wars media? Its more likely than you think.

Frankly, the old EU in particular never seems to be able to decide what senators actually do in the old Republic. Sometimes they actually lead the planets and are responsible for some measure of policy making (such as membership in the CIS or Republic, apparently), other times they simply represent their interests like, you know, a senator.

In this case, they made the mistake of assigning that power and responsibility to two different people on the same planet.


Its also possible that Saw simply doesnt understand how Onderon actually joined the CIS. Its not like he was exactly talking to Lux at that point.

----------


## Fyraltari

That's not even a plot hole, just very shoddy worldbuilding.

----------


## Grim Portent

I do wonder how exactly Rash is supposed to have come into power. No one ever really outright says he stormed the palace with a bunch of CIS droids, and the army seems to consider him legitimate, so that implies he applied some sort of soft pressure to make Dendub step down and become king in his place, but that doesn't seem to fit with anything we get told either.

I'm also not sure why Dendub talks about the will of the people so much, he is/was a *king*, and not an elected one like the Naboo have, nor seemingly one which shares power with a parliament. Rash seems to be an absolute ruler with broad military and judicial powers, and Dendub was presumably one too, just less of an ******* about it and inclined to stay out of things.



Senators seem to have non-senatorial duties determined by their homeworld, some are appointed, some elected and some are the rulers of their worlds. I think it's basically;

Republic: We've decided to let you into the Senate, send someone to speak on your behalf and we'll call them a senator.

Constituent world: Alright, are there any rules on who we should send?

Republic: Not really, no.

This does not lend itself to consistent portayal of senators across various bits of media.

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## Keltest

> That's not even a plot hole, just very shoddy worldbuilding.


I'd say its a plot hole. If the senator is the one who decided, then why does the King matter here? If it was the king, then why did the senator join the CIS senate when they split off, against the king's wishes?

----------


## Fyraltari

> I'm also not sure why Dendub talks about the will of the people so much, he is/was a *king*, and not an elected one like the Naboo have, nor seemingly one which shares power with a parliament. Rash seems to be an absolute ruler with broad military and judicial powers, and Dendub was presumably one too, just less of an ******* about it and inclined to stay out of things.


For one Dendup says the king has to "follow, bend _or break_" the will of the people, so he's still pretty authoritarian.
For two, all political power ultimately exists because the people wills it into being. Absolute rulers are not actually all-powerful and need to keep the people just happy enough to accept their rule. It doesn't matter how many droids Rash has, if the entire city turns against him, then he's no longer king of anything.





> I'd say its a plot hole. If the senator is the one who decided, then why does the King matter here? If it was the king, then why did the senator join the CIS senate when they split off, against the king's wishes?


I don't remember if it's said that Mina joined the CIS from day one. It's possible Dendup remaining king until, like two weeks into the war and Padmé is glossing over the time Mina represented Onderon has a neutral world.

----------


## Keltest

> I don't remember if it's said that Mina joined the CIS from day one. It's possible Dendup remaining king until, like two weeks into the war and Padmé is glossing over the time Mina represented Onderon has a neutral world.


According, again, to Wookieepedia, she was one of the original senator members of Dooku's conspiracy to form the CIS before the Clone Wars started. Dooku convinced her it was an altruistic movement.

----------


## Thrudd

> That's not even a plot hole, just very shoddy worldbuilding.


Yes. That is Star Wars in a nutshell. All aesthetics and nostalgia, very little substance in the setting. Worldbuilding occurs mostly to facilitate whatever visual/action sequence is desired and to facilitate plot. Filoni makes an effort sometimes, but at the end of the day I think he's firmly a supporter of Lucas' vision for the franchise. Which is to say, it's about individual stories of action, heroism, magic and war, often following tropes drawn from other media featuring these elements, that take place within a loosely defined space fantasy environment. At least, this seems to be how the series has been treated by its creator and the people who inherited it from him.

----------


## Mechalich

> For one Dendup says the king has to "follow, bend _or break_" the will of the people, so he's still pretty authoritarian.
> For two, all political power ultimately exists because the people wills it into being. Absolute rulers are not actually all-powerful and need to keep the people just happy enough to accept their rule. It doesn't matter how many droids Rash has, if the entire city turns against him, then he's no longer king of anything.


Well, if Rash were to have his droids slaughter everyone in the city, he'd still be king of its droids, which represents a very large percentage of the city's overall economic output - depending on how industrialized Iziz happens to be it could be almost 100% of it. Automation breaks the traditional 'I need the people to actually do the work to make the country run' limit on absolute power. There are a number of examples in Star Wars that make it clear that a society can farm out _all_ economic output to droids if they really want to (and indeed that droids can run their own fully functional societies without organic oversight), though this is rare for some reason, possibly because it takes very large amounts of capital and time to set up. 

One thing about Star Wars monarchy though: in many of the places where it operates, a surprisingly large chunk of the galaxy including supposedly enlightened Core Worlds, it has operated for an absurdly long time. The Onderonian monarchy, according to Legends lore that inspired this arc, is _five thousand years old_. The people of Onderon have never known anything else and so the idea of completely getting rid of the monarchy is completely outside their Overton Window of governance options. The rebel operatives can seek to overthrow Rash, but they have to replace him with someone. Dendup is the most obvious and most clearly legitimate option (and it's easy for the audience to understand rather than introducing some distant cousin or something), but at the end of the day there will be a king. Transforming the planet into a democracy simply isn't in the cards.




> I don't remember if it's said that Mina joined the CIS from day one. It's possible Dendup remaining king until, like two weeks into the war and Padmé is glossing over the time Mina represented Onderon has a neutral world.


It's also possible for Mina to have supported the Senate without Dendup's full approval or even knowledge. The interaction between Senators dispatched to Coruscant and the leadership of the planetary governments they represent is not necessarily straightforward. For example, if Dendup simply appoints the Senator for Onderon for a 10-year term, it's entirely possible for her to change her mind in the middle and depending on how the laws are written he might not actually possess the power to recall her. 




> A)The Neutral systems are consistuent systems of the Republic who haven't joined the CIS but have refused to support the Republic's war effort, which I guess is legal and not treason somehow?


At the start of the Clone Wars the Republic had an extremely limited array of tools to compel members worlds to take core economic actions. It was closer to a customs union than an actual state. It could level various trade duties (this is what triggers the events of TPM), make rules and regulations regarding various industries - including things like how many weapons you were allowed to put on a starship though this was regularly flouted, and controlled the HoloNet, but it had few other powers. It could not, for example, simply impose massive wartime taxation on its constituent worlds to pay for war. The neutral systems appear to represent worlds that chose not to contribute to the war economy through non-compulsory means. For example, bond sales. In the absence of taxation the Republic could raise war funds by selling ungodly massive amounts of war bonds and the governments of member worlds like Alderaan could buy them with the expectation that they'd never actually be paid back (or that inflation would obliterate their value by the time that they were, something that often happens with war debt). 

As the Clone Wars progressed, of course, this strategy lost viability. The political influence of the neutrals, which allowed them to vote down things like war tax bills, was systematically crushed and Palpatine was voted various extraordinary powers that allowed him to simply bypass the Senate entirely - the very next arc, actually, is precisely about this. 




> Yes. That is Star Wars in a nutshell. All aesthetics and nostalgia, very little substance in the setting. Worldbuilding occurs mostly to facilitate whatever visual/action sequence is desired and to facilitate plot. Filoni makes an effort sometimes, but at the end of the day I think he's firmly a supporter of Lucas' vision for the franchise. Which is to say, it's about individual stories of action, heroism, magic and war, often following tropes drawn from other media featuring these elements, that take place within a loosely defined space fantasy environment. At least, this seems to be how the series has been treated by its creator and the people who inherited it from him.


This is a little unfair. There is substance to the setting, but it's weird and unwieldy. Galactic scale is _huge_ and functionally impossible to manage - even in universe, which is why the Clone Wars even happens. 22-minute TV episodes aimed squarely at a young audience are also not exactly a good place for exposition heavy sequences. There's actually, proportionally, a lot more worldbuilding in TCW than many other Star Wars properties, and Filoni clearly makes an effort to draw on the better class of worldbuilding from Legends while working around most of the dreck. Individual pieces of the setting often get a fair amount of substance - for example there's a through-line about Ryloth and Twi'lek culture that flows through TCW and Rebels - but the galaxy as a whole is so wide that it's impossible to plumb with any depth.

----------


## Fyraltari

Sorry this one took a long time, for some reason the site I'm watching these on uploaded episode 4 twice. Anyway...

*Season 5, episode 5: Tipping Point*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Dendup's first name is Ramses? Seriously? Ahsoka places another holoprojector on the marketplace that projects an image of Dendup who denounces the Separatists' grip on the planet and officially throws his support behind the resistance. As he speaks, Ahsoka flies away on oen of Onderon's winged beasts, flown by Lux. As the king's speech ends, several Izzizzians attack a patrol of B1s.

The new rebel base is hidden in a rocky formation, in another abandonned temple thing. Lux reports the little riot they've seen to Saw and Steela nad they start disagreeing about their next move. Saw wants to strike at Izziz directly, at the heart of Rash's power, but Steela and Lux are worried about collateral victims. Dendup agrees with them and names Steela commanding general of the army, placing general Tendon under her. As everybody leaves, Steela snogs Lux to heel and back. Ahsoka takes it in stride and fist bumps his shoulder.

At the royal palace Rash is getting increasingly worried, he wants his opposants dead before the people fully commit to them. Luckily for them, they have found the rebel base and Kalami dispatches four flying helicopter-like droids as well as a more normal army of droids to the mountains to deal with it. Why isn't he coming with, though? Isn't that the whole reason he's there?

The Onderonian march out to meet the droids in battle and dominate them thanks to the air superiority their tamed dragons grant them. That and a well-placed machine-gun nest. Unfortunately, the four flying droids get there and start slaughtering the air-force as well as the machine-gun. And these droids have shields too powerful for conventional arms to penetrate. Luckily, they can't aim for **** when shooting at main characters from one meter away, so everybody with a name survives. Saw, who was leading the air force, tries to fight a flywing droid one-on-one and is shot down, but rescued by tendon whose ground force are in full retreat.

Ahsoka phones Skywalker and Kenobi to ask for reinforcements from the Council. Obi-Wan says the Council won't be involved in a internal affair. The hell!? the Onderonian army, lead by the Onderonian king is fighting a fully CIS force, how is that an internal affair? Is it just because Rash is still alive? I knew they should have shot him last episode. Ahsoka explains about the Separatists gunships (are they still ships if there's no-one inside?) and their shields. Obi-Wan tells her that if the Onderonian's failure is certain, she should evacuate whoever she can and come back to Coruscant. Cold. They end the communication. Anakin is pretty upset at the idea of leaving the rebels to hang especially since the separatists already know they're involved. Obi-Wan says that sending in Republic troops would defeat their purpose. I'm sorry, I didn't catch that, can you repeat, *General* Kenobi? Anakin says they don't have to look like they're the ones helping. They could involve a third party.
*Kenobi:* Who in the galaxy would be running around with an extra batch of misssiles?
*Me:* Don't say Hondo.
*Anakin:* *Pauses*
*Me:* Don't say Hondo.
*Anakin:* Hondo.
*Me:* Ah, Sithspit!

Back on Onderon Ahsoka explains to Steela and Lux that until Rash is no longer king of Onderon, the republic can't help. Really should have shot him last episode. Also, bull****! The Rebels leave the battlefield and head to base. Meanwhile, Skywalker lands on Florum. Hondo's base looks intact, so I guess this is set before the first episode of the season. The pirates point various weapons at the Jedi, including a slingshot. Damn, I guess Ezra was using actual dangerous armaments back in the beginning of _Rebels_! Anakin tells Hondo he wants to hire him to make an illegal delivery of missiles to Onderon. Wait, they're really just sending arms, not hiring his crew as mercenaries? Why can't they dleiver the weapons themselves, then? that would be significantly less help than what they gave in the first episode of this arc! Also Hondo needles Anakin about doing illegal business. But he ain't going to refuse money (as long as it's not Republic credits). Also, he calls Anakin a Master Jedi.

The rebels have a little reprieve while the droids are navigating the mountainous terrain, so Steela organizes their defense. Saw congratulates her on her leadership, admitting that she's a better leader than he would have been. Ahsoka explains again that th Jedi won't help them more, so Lux storms off. Steela appreciates all she's already doing, though. Then Hondo's ship lands. They're wary of him (How does Lux knows he's a pirate, I don't think they've met?), but he quickly explains why he's here and gives them two creates full of rocket launchers and their ammo. the latest from Siennar! Surprisingly, he doesn't try to make them pay for them. Then they get shot at and Hondo suddenly remembers he has places to be. Okay, that as funny, especially the way his crew and him casually stroll in the middle of the firefight. This was simply an advanced scouting party, not the main force, so they're easily pushed back, but now the Seppies will know about the launchers.

Lux, Steela and Ahsoka bring the launchers to the frontlines and Saw immediately grabs one and uses it to blast a gunship out of the sky. And there was much rejoicing. However, the main attack turns out to be a distraction, one of the gunships, with a couple commando droids standing on it are attacking the base directly, making a beeline for the king. Steela, Lux and Ahsoka immediately head back there. steela manages to shoot down the gunship (on her second try) but the commandos are pursuing the king. Dendup is cornered near a cliff, but the Rebels manages to destroy the droids before he's shot. Back at the battle. Saw and crew shoot down the last two gunships, but one of them spirals out of control and ends up crashing near Steela and Dendup. This fragilizes the ridge they're standing on and Steela ends up hanging from dear life by the tips of her fingers. One rebel points her to Saw, which is confusing because that rebel has looks exactly like the machine-gun operator who dies in the beginning of the episode and one of Dendup's guards who died two minutes ago. Reusing assets isn't always easy. unfortunately for Saw, he's way below Steela and can only watch impotently. Lux tries to reach her but his arm isn't long enough and he falls too. Ahsoka Force-catches him and puts him down somewhere stable before going there herself. Finally, someone who remembers they can catch things without touching them! She starts raising steela up, but the downed gunship comes alive and manages to use its last remaining gun to shoot her, making her let go of Steela. Lux shoots the cannon. Ahsoka and him run back to the cliff and helplessly watch Steela's corpse fifty meters below. Lux is devastated. That's tragic and all, but how is Tano alive? She got shot cleanly in the back, with no protection at all, how is she getting away with just an itty-bitty burn mark? Freaking plot armor, I tells ya.

Backs at the palace, Rash reports to Dooku the failure of the gunships and demands more reinforcement. Dooku asks Kalami to asses the situation: the rebels can still be defeated, but not quickly. The count isn't interested in a prolonged war while the population supports their ennemy more and more. He orders Kalami to gather his troops and redeploy them to another battlefield. Rash starts to process and Kalami shoots him dead. He wasn't ordered to do that, or anything, I think he was just itching to kill the annoying jerk from the day he landed on the planet. Saw blames himseld for shooting the gunship that killed Steela, but Lux tells him Steela (and all of them) knew what they were risking to free their planet. They both mourn in silence

Cut to a few days later, the population of Izziz is celebrating the end of the occupation and giving steela a state funeral. Saw, Lux, Ahsoka and who I suppose are the surviving original rebels are paying homage to her while anakin and Obi-wAn look from little distance. Obi-Wans says thei has been quite the journey for "their" padawan and Anakin thinks Steela will be a "powerful spirit in her life" whatever that means exactly. Saw doesn't want to talk about his sister, while Lux thinks she would be glad for their planet's freedom. He also tells Ahsoka that after watching her heroics and the selflessness of the Jedi (Ah!) he's come around to thinking the Republic is the right side to be on. Dendup has re-appointed him Senator and they will rejoin the Republic. The people celebrate their renewed liberty. And five months later the Empire rolls in, oops!



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Yeah, I kinda saw (heh) Steela's death coming, but it was nicely done either way. All in all, this was a nice arc with some good character moments for Ahsoka mostly, but also Lux and the Rebels. Them ending up as just friends is a good way to tie up their relationship. I don't really know if I want Lux to show up again in the show. Now that he and his planet are back with "the good guys", I don't suppose he really needs to. Ah, who am I kidding, he wasn't in _Rebels_ or in anything I'm aware of set after the Clone wars despite being a filoni original, dude's gonna die. Don't tell me if he does, I'll see.

My one complaint about this arc won't surprise you. the Jedi's refusement to get involved makes less and less sense with each episode, and this one really took the cake. Why oh why would they see rash as more legitimate than Dendup? Adn giving the rebels weapon would be against Jedi principle but only if they're doing it themselves?! I'm all for criticizing the Jedi's behaviour during and before the Clone War, but I draw the line at making Obi-wan such a blatant hypocrite! And like I said, giving them launchers would be less help than the training they've already given them and Ahsoka's presence! Not to mention that the Separatists already know they're involved so why the secrecy? And since when do they have a problem with taking down Separatist governements?


*Next up:* The Gathering. Hmm, weird title.

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## Keltest

The Jedi/Republic arent looking to conquer Onderon. Its flat out not on their agenda. Part of the entire premise is that if they have to commit boots on the ground to take Onderon, then it isnt worth it, the opportunity costs are simply too high. Onderon isnt a Republic or even (formally) neutral territory that has been invaded that they need to defend, its an enemy territory undergoing civil unrest.

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## Mechalich

> The Jedi/Republic arent looking to conquer Onderon. Its flat out not on their agenda. Part of the entire premise is that if they have to commit boots on the ground to take Onderon, then it isnt worth it, the opportunity costs are simply too high. Onderon isnt a Republic or even (formally) neutral territory that has been invaded that they need to defend, its an enemy territory undergoing civil unrest.


I think the Republic, or at least the 'good guy' faction of Senators including Padme, is also trying to provide loosely CIS-aligned worlds with an out. Specifically, they want worlds to leave the CIS even if they don't join/rejoin the Republic. They figure if the CIS breaks apart they can negotiate piece with individual worlds or sectors and not have to systematically defeat the organization as a whole.

And there's something to this. By RotS the CIS forces are reduced to a handful of systems actively under Republic siege and the massive aggregate fleet under Grievous' command. Internal support for the CIS has fallen far enough that once Grievous dies, the Separatist leadership is literally begging for a chance to make peace. 

The Onderon-style approach therefore operates as part of a two-pronged strategy. The Republic and Jedi work to erode the CIS' base of support and at the same time they try to eliminate the hardline leadership that prevents a negotiated peace. Now, the latter effort ends up a complete failure - they don't manage to kill Dooku or Grievous, because RotS means they can't - but it's not for want of trying. The cut arcs that became Dark Disciple are all about trying to assassinate Dooku. 

One other bit of important context is that while the CIS looses the Clone Wars early - in the Disney canon they arguable loose during the Clone Wars Movie when the Hutts pick the Republic side, something that happens in the first months of the war - they had the resources to keep on fighting much longer than they actually did. Even after shutting down over 90% of all remaining combat droids in RotS, Separatist remnants still fought on against the Empire for over two years. In a hypothetical situation where Order 66 doesn't happen, it's entirely possible the Clone Wars could have been a 6+ year conflict and the whole Onderon setup is part of the efforts to try and prevent that.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The Jedi/Republic arent looking to conquer Onderon. Its flat out not on their agenda. Part of the entire premise is that if they have to commit boots on the ground to take Onderon, then it isnt worth it, the opportunity costs are simply too high. Onderon isnt a Republic or even (formally) neutral territory that has been invaded that they need to defend, its an enemy territory undergoing civil unrest.


We keep coming back to this. The Republic does not recognize the CIS as a legitimate state. As far as they're concerned, every Separatist system is a Republic system currently occupied by traitors. Their goal _is_ to bring them back to the Republic and throw their governments in jail unless they recant like Dendup just did. The Republic is not fighting a defensive war, they've invaded Geonosis, Cato Neimodia (in ROTS) and Umbara on-screen and most likely other planets as well.

The oddity in this is the existence if neutral systems, the best way I can find to explain their existence is that they're systems who stayed in the Republic but opted out of the war effort, which apparently has historical precedent? I don't really get how that works but I am not an historian or a political expert.

Onderon was definitely part of the Republic (Mina and Padmé were friends in the Senate), but when the war started the king (Dendup) chose to remain neutral. He was then (somehow) overthrown by Rash who had Onderon joined the Separatists (who likely helped his rise to power in exchange). Now that Dendup is denoucing Rash's rule as illegitimate and fighting with the Onderonian army and a grassroot movement against a purely Separatist occupation force, it doesn't really make sense how the Republic could somehow not be legally able to answer his call for help.

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## Keltest

> We keep coming back to this. The Republic does not recognize the CIS as a legitimate state. As far as they're concerned, every Separatist system is a Republic system currently occupied by traitors.


I mean, I dont actually think thats true. If it were, then the idea of peace would not only be completely unable to get off the ground, but would be outright ludicrous, and yet not only is Padme a fairly influential senator rather than, say, kicked out of the Senate for not understanding the really basic politics at work, but she actually manages to talk the Senate into entertaining peace talks at least once, before Dooku torpedoes it on the Separatist side.

The republic may not formally recognize the CIS as legitimate, but in practice every single one of their dealings with the CIS as a whole involves treating them as a legitimate government entity that was chosen by their people.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I mean, I dont actually think thats true. If it were, then the idea of peace would not only be completely unable to get off the ground, but would be outright ludicrous, and yet not only is Padme a fairly influential senator rather than, say, kicked out of the Senate for not understanding the really basic politics at work, but she actually manages to talk the Senate into entertaining peace talks at least once, before Dooku torpedoes it on the Separatist side.
> 
> The republic may not formally recognize the CIS as legitimate, but in practice every single one of their dealings with the CIS as a whole involves treating them as a legitimate government entity that was chosen by their people.


Padmé wants a diplomtic end to the conflict. While what that would entail exactly isn't spelled out, I imagine she's banking on a peaceful re-integration of the Separatist systems inside the Republic through adressing sime of the issues that pushed them to secede in the first place..

They absolutely do not deal with them as a legitimate government entity. In Lux's introductory episode, Padmé said that meeting with a Separatist senator would risk her being charged with treason _specifically_ to avoid giving legitimacy tho their movement. When Lux tried to assassinate Dooku, one of the Separatists' demands was that the Republic recognizes the CIS as a legitimate state, something that Padmé was unwilling to promise.

The CIS is _de facto_ and independent state, but as far the Senate is officially concerned, the Separatist Alliance is a group of rebels and traitors and that's it.

----------


## Grim Portent

There's a weird split going on where the leadership of a planet being CIS aligned is fine to the Jedi, or at least not Jedi business, but the CIS itself is not acceptable because it's just a vehicle for Dooku's fallen jedi agenda. It is fundamentally one of those things where you need to squint at it for it to make any sense.

The general gist of the Republic seems to be that it's not a proper nation, it's more of a special interests forum for various largely independant entities to deal with matters of mutual benefit or peacefully resolve conflicts. It's several thousands of years of stupid, redundant, contradictory and often corrupt legislation. It's like a weird hybrid of the UN, a federal government presiding over numerous states and a cartel. The only limits on it's power are defined by itself, but in practice it's got no powers because of how long it's been getting pulled back and forth by corrupt politicians and corporate senators. This is the same organisation in which it's allowed for corporations to invade planets that owe them money, and presumably for planets to invade other planets that owe them money.

Prior to Palpatine's war reforms the Republic is basically nothing. No army, no national bank, a toothless law enforcement agency, little to no oversight over constituent worlds, seemingly no large scale rights beyond 'slavery bad' which is enforced primarily by the Jedi, no second chamber, a head of state with little to no powers. It's just a place for talking heads to waffle and prevaricate about nothing of substance for years.


The Republic presumably does not have any defined laws on seccession from it, members normally only leave when conquered by a non-member. So the CIS unilaterally leaving by choice in response to the Jedi invasion of Geonosis is a new situation, and one that warrants new and reactive legislation which presumably did not give the CIS a proper legal status.

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## Thrudd

> We keep coming back to this. The Republic does not recognize the CIS as a legitimate state. As far as they're concerned, every Separatist system is a Republic system currently occupied by traitors. Their goal _is_ to bring them back to the Republic and throw their governments in jail unless they recant like Dendup just did. The Republic is not fighting a defensive war, they've invaded Geonosis, Cato Neimodia (in ROTS) and Umbara on-screen and most likely other planets as well.
> 
> The oddity in this is the existence if neutral systems, the best way I can find to explain their existence is that they're systems who stayed in the Republic but opted out of the war effort, which apparently has historical precedent? I don't really get how that works but I am not an historian or a political expert.
> 
> Onderon was definitely part of the Republic (Mina and Padmé were friends in the Senate), but when the war started the king (Dendup) chose to remain neutral. He was then (somehow) overthrown by Rash who had Onderon joined the Separatists (who likely helped his rise to power in exchange). Now that Dendup is denoucing Rash's rule as illegitimate and fighting with the Onderonian army and a grassroot movement against a purely Separatist occupation force, it doesn't really make sense how the Republic could somehow not be legally able to answer his call for help.


It seems to me that the Republic would have to have been a looser confederation of mostly autonomous governments, at the point when the prequels begin, anyway. The Republic apparently had no or only a very small military...hence the debate in Ep 2 about whether they should even have an army (which was circumvented by Palpatine's faction secretly ordering one built anyways, somehow without anyone noticing where all the trillions or quadrillions of credits must have gone to build it). That would imply that most Republic systems maintained their own local defense forces, as we see on Naboo, and were not compelled to contribute to the defense of the Republic as a whole. Apparently there wasn't even a Republic-wide free trade or travel agreement, because the conflict that started the whole civil war was an issue with "taxation of trade routes" around Naboo. If Naboo was legally imposing tariffs on the Trade Federation, or imposing a toll on the use of hyperspace lanes through their system, that implies the Republic actually was a much looser an alliance than would be implied by the way we saw the Senate behaving. Maybe there was never a military alliance or agreement between all Republic member worlds, which begs the question- what exactly did the Republic government do and why did it even exist? Maybe there were some strongly aligned worlds who agreed to support one another militarily and engage in free trade/travel, and others that were more like "client states" who just had non-aggression agreements or individual trade agreements with specific member worlds.

Again - world building. Lucas isn't a sci-fi guy nor a world builder, I don't think he thought about the politics in more detail than "bad guy manipulates everyone into allowing him to take control and do bad stuff, Democracy falls into Authoritarianism". Filoni and other people given the task of filling in the blanks have a largely incoherent set of established facts to work with from the films...I don't envy them trying to make sense of all the inconsistencies and plot holes.

----------


## pendell

> The oddity in this is the existence if neutral systems, the best way I can find to explain their existence is that they're systems who stayed in the Republic but opted out of the war effort, which apparently has historical precedent? I don't really get how that works but I am not an historian or a political expert.


Correct. The most obvious precedent is the US during our Civil War.   We won't get into the nitty gritty for the reasons _why_ this happened but stick with the basic facts on the war itself.  

At start, there was a single federation of 34 states.  

Keep in mind that at this stage of our history the US was still thought of more as a coalition or confederation than it was a single nation. Each of the states thought of themselves as voluntary participants in a supernational confederation or alliance.  The idea of leaving the alliance was simply not mentioned in our founding document, the constitution, so whether a state could leave once joined was ambiguous.  It would never actually be settled in a courtroom, but only on the battlefield of this very civil war.

Keep in mind, also, that the federal government had a very, very small army of its own. The entire regular army was only  about 15,000 strong  , mostly on the frontier deployed against the indigenous Americans or in a few coastal forts scattered over the country. 

Very like the Republic in Episode 1, except the Republic didn't have any army at all.  

 In order to build up extremely large forces for fighting , they had to call on the states to raise the regiments, which would then be called into federal service and deployed by the federal government. 

You can think of the US  Regular Army as being equivalent to the Jedi Order, a small cadre of dedicated professionals who would provide leadership to the larger newly formed state units. Except the regular army couldn't lift rocks with their minds. Not that's recorded, anyway. 

Anyway, the election of 1861 happened, and 15 of the 34 states didn't like the result. Like, at all. So much so, that six of them decided to test the theory of secession and left the union altogether. 

Confusion ensued. Are they allowed to do that? Is the fed allowed to stop them with armed force if they do?  

At any rate, the fed decided to maintain the existing posts and property of the federal government in the "seceded" territories. One of these, Fort Sumter, was taken by armed force by the Confederated States (sounds a lot like 'Confederation of independent systems') , doesn't it?  

In response to this, the Fed asked for the states to contribute 75,000 volunteers to put down the obvious insurrection. 

8 of the states of those 15 were outraged by this action. 4 of those states seceded at once and joined the southern confederation. The other 4 did _not_ secede but refused to contribute the requested volunteers or money to the federal war effort. One of them, Kentucky, told both sides to stay out of their state and would fight either side if they entered Kentucky's territory with their own state troops. 

These are the 'border states', which attempted to be neutral in the war.  

It didn't work out.  They were smack in the middle of the two sides, which meant some of the most bitter and brutal battles of the war were fought on their territory.  When one of the state governments joined one side in response, minority delegates would join the other and form a government-in-exile, claiming to be the _real_ government of the state.  

This is also why the abolition of slavery didn't happen until some time into the war. Because there were slave states on _both_ sides at the beginning, and the least thing the fed wanted to do was to drive these neutral states into open revolts.  There were tens of thousands of soldiers under arms from these states, volunteers who joined when the fighting entered their territory, who would instantly ground arms and walk away if their precious 'peculiar institution' was so much as touched.  

The situation changed over the next couple of years, but that's a bit out of forum scope. 

So I can well imagine neutral states even in a civil war. In a federation of voluntary members dependent on contributions from the constituent nations, it's no surprise there are those who will not commit forces to the war effort while forbidding either side to enter their territory with armed force. 

Of course, I suspect that part of Palpatine's plan is to put an end to such things -- to create a single all-powerful central government based on Coruscant which can command all the resources of the entire Republic/Empire without dispute. No bickering or corruption oar argument between the factions. The Death Star is a symbol of this; the Empire could bring together massive resources to make a moon-sized battle station. I'm not convinced the old Republic could have even if they wanted to. 

ETA: Part of the point of the Empire is to do away with things such as 'neutral' planets. "If you're not with me you're my enemy", as Anakin said.  

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Grim Portent

> It seems to me that the Republic would have to have been a looser confederation of mostly autonomous governments, at the point when the prequels begin, anyway. The Republic apparently had no or only a very small military...hence the debate in Ep 2 about whether they should even have an army (which was circumvented by Palpatine's faction secretly ordering one built anyways, somehow without anyone noticing where all the trillions or quadrillions of credits must have gone to build it). That would imply that most Republic systems maintained their own local defense forces, as we see on Naboo, and were not compelled to contribute to the defense of the Republic as a whole. Apparently there wasn't even a Republic-wide free trade or travel agreement, because the conflict that started the whole civil war was an issue with "taxation of trade routes" around Naboo. If Naboo was legally imposing tariffs on the Trade Federation, or imposing a toll on the use of hyperspace lanes through their system, that implies the Republic actually was a much looser an alliance than would be implied by the way we saw the Senate behaving. Maybe there was never a military alliance or agreement between all Republic member worlds, which begs the question- what exactly did the Republic government do and why did it even exist? Maybe there were some strongly aligned worlds who agreed to support one another militarily and engage in free trade/travel, and others that were more like "client states" who just had non-aggression agreements or individual trade agreements with specific member worlds.
> 
> Again - world building. Lucas isn't a sci-fi guy nor a world builder, I don't think he thought about the politics in more detail than "bad guy manipulates everyone into allowing him to take control and do bad stuff, Democracy falls into Authoritarianism". Filoni and other people given the task of filling in the blanks have a largely incoherent set of established facts to work with from the films...I don't envy them trying to make sense of all the inconsistencies and plot holes.


Funny thing is Naboo wasn't the one taxing the trade routes, it was the Republic Senate that controlled interplanetary taxes. The Trade Federation occupied Naboo in protest of the tariffs, which IIRC they had a legal right to do because of the nonsensical treaties that favoured the megacorps*, and Naboo was a conveniently weak target that couldn't make them shove off without help and therefore good for making their point.

There's a point made somewhere about the Republic heavily exploiting** resource rich but low population Outer Rim worlds and the trade routes they rely on but spending most of the money and resources gained on the Core Worlds with their greater population density while neglecting the infrastructure used to support the OR. The megacorps play both sides because they can exploit the OR for as long as the CW don't stop them. Which is a fairly clear reference to the urban/rural divide familiar to us humans.

'Course the whole blockade was a ploy by Palpatine to get himself into the position of Chancellor, so the actual reason for picking Naboo as a target was backroom politics, which is ultimately the reason for the CIS being the bad guys in general.

*Specifically I think Naboo owed the TF money, which they are allowed to collect by really extreme methods.

**Though I'm not sure the exploitation ever gets explained except in rather over the top examples like the Imperial era slavery.

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## Mechalich

> There's a point made somewhere about the Republic heavily exploiting** resource rich but low population Outer Rim worlds and the trade routes they rely on but spending most of the money and resources gained on the Core Worlds with their greater population density while neglecting the infrastructure used to support the OR. The megacorps play both sides because they can exploit the OR for as long as the CW don't stop them. Which is a fairly clear reference to the urban/rural divide familiar to us humans.


It's not urban/rural, which is a modern conflict, but rather sovereign state/colony, which is much more appropriate to the late 19th/early 20th century social context that informs Star Wars. Many of the various megacorps controlled huge amounts of territory in the Mid and Outer Rim that were not Republic member worlds and where they exercised company rule and could do basically whatever they wanted. Mustafar, actually, is a prime example, where the entire planet was basically converted into a giant open pit mine and the native population had no other employment options. 

The CIS is, politically, an anti-colonial independence movement - which is why Dooku's movement acquires a lot of popular sympathy - with the critical exception that the intent of independence is to cement in place the power of the expat colonial powers and their hideous monopolies, not to benefit the native populations. The Clone Wars, as a conflict, screwed over the common people on both sides, the big oddity is that this was almost entirely economic, since the fighting was done by purchased proxy forces rather than the citizenry in most theaters.

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## Sapphire Guard

Must have been great to be a Clone Wars writer. No matter how badly you screw up, the audience blames George instead.

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## Peelee

> Must have been great to be a Clone Wars writer. No matter how badly you screw up, the audience blames George instead.


A.) it's hard to separate what bad things were writers and what were George.

2.) I, for one, have never been shy about saying Filoni isn't very good at stories. Great at Star Wars lore, terrible at stories.

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## Fyraltari

> Must have been great to be a Clone Wars writer. No matter how badly you screw up, the audience blames George instead.


You know, I wonder how much not having to deal with this bull any longer played in his decision to sell to Disney.

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## Sapphire Guard

> A.) it's hard to separate what bad things were writers and what were George.


All the more reason to be more careful. If you care enough to assign blame, care enough to fact check.

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## Peelee

> All the more reason to be more careful. If you care enough to assign blame, care enough to fact check.


Ultimately, everything does end up with his approval regardless. Some things are more active (eg him directly saying "make [Ziro the Hutt] sound like Truman Capote") than others, but he still always have final say. He may have rubber stamped some things without looking at them, but hey, heavy is the head that wears the crown.

For example, I blame Abrams for the Sequel Trilogy being the dumpster fire it is, but Kennedy was still the one who hired him. Twice.

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## Mechalich

> You know, I wonder how much not having to deal with this bull any longer played in his decision to sell to Disney.


It's hard to say. I mean, Lucas sold the franchise at roughly the same time he turned 70. Considering the massive size of Lucasfilm, retiring from management of such an enterprise requires nothing more than feeling old. He also remarried around the same time, and I imagine enjoying time with his wife rather than managing a giant franchise also impacted the decision. I also suspect that he believed, probably correctly, that it simply wasn't possible to just appoint someone as CEO of Lucasfilm and officially retire. There's simply no way the public and major investors wouldn't try to turn to him the minute things hit a rough patch. That's why the actual sale of the franchise to an even larger corporation was essential to make the break real. 

Certainly the first half of the 2010s was not the height of anti-Lucas feeling among the fandom. That peaked after the prequels came out. TCW might not be universally beloved, but the fanbase wasn't particularly mad about it. If anything it was highly respected compared to what other aspects of the franchise, especially the novel line, were doing at the same time.

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## Sapphire Guard

> Ultimately, everything does end up with his approval regardless. Some things are more active (eg him directly saying "make [Ziro the Hutt] sound like Truman Capote") than others, but he still always have final say. He may have rubber stamped some things without looking at them, but hey, heavy is the head that wears the crown.


Until the fanbase likes something in Star Wars,at which point people start saying 'thank god (other person) saved Star Wars from George.' It's tremendously cruel, but a very common attitude in the SW fanbase.

It takes less than a minute to check who actually wrote the Onderan arc on wikipedia (Chris Collins). But that would take a very very small effort to complain accurately rather than blindly.

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## Peelee

> Until the fanbase likes something in Star Wars,at which point people start saying 'thank god (other person) saved Star Wars from George.' It's tremendously cruel, but a very common attitude in the SW fanbase.


I know you like to die on this hill, but my heart just doesn't bleed for it.

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## Keltest

> I know you like to die on this hill, but my heart just doesn't bleed for it.


Eh, I'm with Sapphire Guard here. Star Wars fans are easily the worst part of Star Wars, to the point where even though I consider myself a fan, I'm flat out unwilling to actually identify myself as one and associate myself with these people except in specific circumstances.

No offense to you or groups like the 501st, who I have nothing but positive things to say about. But the only "fandom" I can think of off hand that treats a work or creator they supposedly like worse than the Star Wars fandom is the Sonic the Hedgehog fandom.

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## Peelee

> No offense to you or groups like the 501st


Well that's redundant.  :Small Wink:

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## Mechalich

> No offense to you or groups like the 501st, who I have nothing but positive things to say about. But the only "fandom" I can think of off hand that treats a work or creator they supposedly like worse than the Star Wars fandom is the Sonic the Hedgehog fandom.


I can think of quite a few, notably including Game of Thrones. Star Wars is in no way unique in terms of level of fan anger. It is unusual in that there are very few equally large franchises that have managed to survive a string of failures in the way Star Wars has. The usual result of fans turning against a creator is massive franchise contraction and potentially outright franchise death, as can be seen unfolding within the Harry Potter franchise right now.

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## Sapphire Guard

So, my position of 'make minimal effort to fact check before you throw personal abuse' is controversial? Uh, okay.

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## pendell

> Ultimately, everything does end up with his approval regardless. Some things are more active (eg him directly saying "make [Ziro the Hutt] sound like Truman Capote") than others, but he still always have final say. He may have rubber stamped some things without looking at them, but hey, heavy is the head that wears the crown.
> 
> For example, I blame Abrams for the Sequel Trilogy being the dumpster fire it is, but Kennedy was still the one who hired him. Twice.


I'm not sure that's fair. I remember the hullabaloo that happened around Karen Traviss and her exit from star wars writing.  She had written this whole culture and language for Mandalorians for her Republic Commando series of novels, right up until the point George Lucas and the Clone Wars writers wrote Mandalorian episodes in an  entirely different direction which made it impossible for the culture or the people she had created to have ever existed.  She picked up her toys and went home. There were those in the fandom not sorry to see her leave, given some of her other works really made the Mandalorians out to be better than Jedi, but I think it puts the lie to the idea that everything which happened was subject to GL's approval. 

As GL explained it, there were two parallel universes: The universe of the films which he created, and the Expanded Universe, which was essentially a cash cow to generate more star wars revenue.  GL didn't review those stories exhaustively but allowed writers to do pretty much what they liked within general guidelines. If he felt it was necessary to throw the entire plotline into the trash because he felt something else was better, he wouldn't hesitate to do so. 

I can still remember, back in the 80s, Marvel comics had an entirely different post-Endor history of the GFFA which featured an extragalactic invasion by the  Nagai  and the  Tofs  , who were  at war  with each other. That plotline stood for about ten years before it was summarily tossed into the trash in favor of Zahn's "Heir to the Empire" trilogy. That led to the Yuuzhan Vong invasion and a history of skywalker children into a new empire , and that story stood for about ten years before Lucas sold out to disney and rebooted them again. 

Lucas didn't approve , or much care, about the EU. He was even dismissive of it. There were several novels about Boba Fett which he dismissed in interviews with the statement "I killed Boba Fett. He is dead." -- Or he was until he sold out to Disney and they brought him back.

So I think we're making too much of GL's approval. He only really cared in detail about the universe of the films. The EU was something he threw open to other authors and hardly ever intervened in their work so long as it made him money.  He didn't care about contradictory stories and he felt no compunction about wiping away whole plotlines from the EU at a stroke if he thought he had a better idea.  

So I wouldn't say anything more about GL's "approval" than that he thought it was making him money. There were parts of the EU he didn't like at all but didn't do anything about , for this specific reason. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## hamishspence

> I can still remember, back in the 80s, Marvel comics had an entirely different post-Endor history of the GFFA which featured an extragalactic invasion by the  Nagai  and the  Tofs  , who were  at war  with each other. That plotline stood for about ten years before it was summarily tossed into the trash in favor of Zahn's "Heir to the Empire" trilogy.


To be fair, just because _Zahn_ wasn't specifically asked to reference that series, didn't mean that _other authors_ weren't prepared to - eventually. Late-period EU works started including characters from this series, and references to its events.

Indeed, _some_ characters from the series are among the few to make it through to the "Disneyverse" after the great reboot - Domina Tagge, Jaxxon, Valance the cyborg bounty hunter, and so forth.

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## Thrudd

The only thing that Lucas can be "blamed" for is not caring about world building. Which was never his intention -he isn't a science fiction writer, not a speculative world builder, not even a fantasy world builder. Sci-fi fans like me can get caught up in trying to understand or reverse engineer the logic of the setting, the "rules" of the magic and technology, the political structure of the galaxy, etc., but the truth is there never was any. The only logic that he followed was whatever allowed him to include the imagery, set pieces, character moments and references that he wanted for each film, tossing in technical jargon or new technology to allow the current plot to happen, without concern for what those inclusions would imply about previous films or the setting as a whole. And that was ok when it was only three movies with no intention of ever returning to that universe. When he decided to make the prequels, the problems with setting coherence became compounded. He's a film maker, interested in creating exciting visual and sound spectacles that showcase cutting edge effects that allow fantastical things to seem "real", with varying degrees of success. That was his only real motivation, IMO. The story serves the visual, for him, not the other way 'round.   

I think we could look at Star Wars as less of a persistent fictional universe, and more like a series of ancient myths. Just like ancient myths, there are different versions of the same stories, and some elements and characters can be subtly or wildly different from one version to the next. So it's ok that Luke seems to be different in the OT, the sequels, and the Mandalorian-verse...we shouldn't think about these things as a single big story, but as several different, only somewhat related myths. The "truth" of what was going on in this galaxy will never be known, all we get are stories from "a long time ago", that follow the logic of myth. Of course, the people actually creating these shows and films may not explicitly have this intention, but that is the effect. Since Lucas never really considered the wider implications of the technology and magic powers he introduced on the fictional galactic societies, most of the creators who followed him don't, either.

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## Peelee

> I'm not sure that's fair. I remember the hullabaloo that happened around Karen Traviss and her exit from star wars writing.  She had written this whole culture and language for Mandalorians for her Republic Commando series of novels, right up until the point George Lucas and the Clone Wars writers wrote Mandalorian episodes in an  entirely different direction which made it impossible for the culture or the people she had created to have ever existed.  She picked up her toys and went home. There were those in the fandom not sorry to see her leave, given some of her other works really made the Mandalorians out to be better than Jedi, but I think it puts the lie to the idea that everything which happened was subject to GL's approval.


It doesn't, though. Lucas already considered there to be two Star Wars universe, his and everyone else's. And he still dictated what they could and could not do. Zahn couldn't use Sith in Thrawn Trilogy, Stackpole couldn't use Mandalorians, nobody could use Luke's mother, all dictated by Lucas. When someone wanted to do something, he had to approve it. 

Now, he said that while he never read the books, he did have a sort of encyclopedia with references he could check so if, for example, they used this name there, he could keep everything consistent even with the two different universes. However, he also allowss a Boba Fett origin story, but then went and contradicted it with his own completely different Boba Fett origin story, so there goes his claims for consistency (he could have just denied the request to start with and had no issues).

Me, I figure what happened with this and with Traviss (who wasn't bad, I never understood the hate towards her) and other stuff that got blatantly contradicted was that Lucas decided des he wanted to do something else and didn't really care what he said in the past, as he was wont to do. Which is fine, his universe, he gets to be the one who says what goes where. But that doesn't make him immune to criticism. Can't be Damocles and then complain about the sword hanging above your head.

Or, in this case, have others complain about it.

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## Mechalich

> Me, I figure what happened with this and with Traviss (who wasn't bad, I never understood the hate towards her)


The Karen Traviss situation was that she entered into conflicts with other authors working for Del Rey and the fans, especially over the direction of the Legacy of the Force novel series - which includes hundreds of pages of unnecessary digressions about Boba Fett and Mandalore at the expense of the actual series plot - and failed to realize both that she was less popular than the authors she was competing with, especially Aaron Allston, both within Lucasfilm and among the fandom, and when she refused to play ball and stay away from the Mandos for the next series - which became Fate of the Jedi - they fired her and replaced her with Christie Golden. 

George Lucas wasn't involved with that incident which was almost entirely contained within the Del Rey Star Wars publishing group. Truthfully it was a fairly ordinary bit of writer's room politics, but because it was Star Wars it played out across the pages of multiple New York Times bestsellers.

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## Fyraltari

*Season 5, Episode 6 : The Gathering*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The narrator explains to us that the war is starting to take a toll on the Jedi Order as fit younglings are hard to find and long to train. Aspirants must pass many tests, the most important of which being "The Gathering" which is where one truly begins their path as a Jedi. As we're told this, we're shown Plo Koon recruiting an adorable baby-Ahsoka and Master Sinube, from Peelee's favorite episode overseeing some younglings (this episode's protagonists) practicing their _katas_.

The episode truly begins with these six younglings joining Ahsoka and R2 (why's _he_ here?) on the Temple's landing pad. The group (consisting of the human Petro, the Rodian Ganudi, the Ithorian Biff, the Tholothian (Gallia's species) Katuni, the Nautolan (Firsto's species) Zatt and the Wookiee Gunji) has been deemed ready to undertake the Gathering. Ahsoka explains that this means they are going to... build their own lightsaber. And in order to do so, she is taking them to the Jedi's most sacred place: the ice world of Ilum. They land in the middle of a snowstorm, but everybody has packed some warm clothes. Except Gunji. You know, just because they're covered in fur shouldn't mean that Wookiees ought to go everywhere naked. How are they just as comfortable on Tatooine and Hoth without a change of clothes?

Ahsoka takes them to a huge ice barrier and asks the younglings to help her move the ice to reveal the way into the temple. It's a grandiose sight with huge statues of Jedi. And Yoda waiting for them in the middle. Did he close the door behind him. Kind of a flex, honestly. Yoda tells them that a Jedi is the force made physical, which implies the responsibility of protecting others... with a lightsaber. Now, they each must harvest a crystal, each crystal acts as the heart of the lightsaber, focusing the Force from the Jedi. Okay, I really like this. I've always been keen on the idea that the lightsabers should be magical in some way and have a special connection with the Jedi who made and wields them. The idea that the blade is focused Force, I'm not too fond of, though, how does that work for when non-Force users wield lightsabers, do they store the Force? Yoda caps his speech by opening a sun-roof, letting light in, light which is reflected and focused by a couple of enormous crystal up above, guiding it to a frozen archway. The beam melts the light opening the way into "the crystal cave". Yoda tells the children they must enter and will succeed if they trust in themselves and each other.

Ahsoka further explains that once they have their crystals, they mustn't stay inside the cave: once daylight end, the ice wall will reform and everyone still inside will be trapped for one rotation. They will know which crystal to pick when they see it. They go in and we see that about a tenth of the archway (from the top down) is frozen over already. I'm no expert, but I don't think waterfall freeze over in this fashion. Once inside the younglings discuss how they're going to find their crystals when the whole cave is made of ice. Petro isn't worried, he thinks that he can easily spend the night in there if needs be. And Zatt tells him nights in Ilum last for nineteen standard days. That should mean they have 19 days of sunlight to find the crystal (since Ahsoka said they landed just before sunrise) but I guess the crystal array can only focus the light for a short time-span, so they'd be trapped for 36 days. Petro is still confident and boasts that he'll be the first to find his crystal. Katuni says they should stay together but he runs off. The group calls him selfish and moves on.

The group reach an intersection with three possible way out. Katuli says they don't have time to search the entire thing, so now they should split into groups. Zatt suggests they all close their eyes and pick a way. They do that and Katuni and Zapp point to the leftmost doorway, Ganudi and Gunji to the middle one and Biff is the only one to point to the right, meaning they'll be alone. Not to worry, they're unlikely to find a sports almanac in there. Biff is afraid to go alone and tried to change their answer but the others don't agree: they should follow their instinct. Back with Petro who's found a shiny icicle hanging just above a huge drop. Happy to have found a crystal so soon he carefully reaches above the abyss and picks it. Meanwhile Zatt is getting worried they're not finding anything. and that's when Katuni points a shiny light way up on the cave's wall. He can't see it, though, so they conclude this must be _her_ crystal. She's afraid of climbing the freaking wall made of ice, but he believes she can do it. While he stays at ground level looking for his crystal.

Gunji and Ganudi have reached a large cave with openings on the top that let the sunshine through and a partially frozen over lake. Gunji is hearing a constant whistling but Ganudi doesn't hear a thing. then the Wookiee points to a shining light across the pond. Eager, they try to cross the lake but the floating ice is too unstable. Ganudi calms them and tells them they need to be patient. She points out the light is moving away from the lake, freezing it again. They'll just have to wait for it to be frozen and then they'll have a little time to retrieve their crystal and run back out before the way is closed. She wishes Gunji good luck and leaves to find her crystal. Meanwhile, Biff is walking in the darkest part of the cave. And they spot some kind of huge unmoving monster, bathed in smoke and an m=ominous red light, a shining crystal resting in its gaping maw. And there's an animalistic growling too, while we're at it. Biff cowers behind a chunk of ice.

Ganudi is ranting to herself about how ridiculous the whole thing is ridiculous and how she'll never find a crystal. And then the ground gives way under her feet and she falls into a room filled with thousands of specks of light. Petro runs out of the cave to Ahsoka and Yoda, proudly declares hismelf the first one out and presents his crystal to them. And it starts melting in his hand. Yoda opines that he did indeed find a crystal: a water crystal, commonly referred to as a chip of ice. They send him back and tell him to look closer. He's worried that the door is already half closed, but Ahsoka only tells him to hurry. Which he does. Katuni is still mid-climb and almost falls (pretty sure the height would kill her unless she knows to use the force to soften her landing). She reassures herself she can do it and keeps going. Zapp is confused by the readings the machine he keeps fiddling with is giving him: there are crystals everywhere, but he can't find any. In frustration he smashes his tool against the wall, breaking both and seats, desperate. Biff has been slowly making their way towards the huge monster, who looks like a giant spider made of ice with bright red eyes, but can't seem to decide to cross the last few paces.

Ganudi wanders among all the shining lights, incapable of telling which one would be her crystal. She falls on her knee, on the verge of tears. Gunji is pacing left and right on the lake's shoreline, yelling in frustration. Finally, they calm down, kneel and start meditating. Katuni reaches the top of the ice wall and carefully picks her crystal, interrupting its light and chiming. She takes one look down the wall, decides it'd take to long to climb down and head through a passage leaving away from the platform she found herself on. Biff, extremely frightened advances towards the ice-spider, hesitates several times before finally reaching into its "maw" and grabbing the crystal. This stops the hellish growling as well as the red lighting, making the monster appears like it truly is: a formless heap of various chunks of ice. Ganudi decides she's not afraid and that she can do this, she closes her eyes and reach through Force. "I'm one with the force and the force will guide me." So close! The Force theme plays and one of the lights detach from the wall and flies to her open palm, dissipating all of the reflections. Petro is running throughout the corridors in a panic.

Zatt decides he should trust himself rather than rely on tech. Like Ganudi he closes his eyes, reaches through the Force... and the wall behin him lights up. He can see his crystal through the crack he made but there's still a thick wall of ice between him and it. he places his broken machine against the wall, presses a couple buttons and it starts malfunctioning and ultimately explodes, collapsing the wall and allowing him to pick his crystal. Gunji stops meditating, sees that the lake his completely frozen and carefully makes their way through it. And they slip and slide all the way to the crystal. The Wookiee picks it up. Katuni is running back towards the exit when she slips and falls on her back. The ground under her gives way and she ends up in a small room with an ice wall between her and a corridor. she yells for help but no one can  here her and she fears that, despite having found her crystal, she'll never make it out.

Gunji reaches the exit, which is already so close to being frozen over they have to hunch to go through and proudly presents their crystal to Ahsoka and Yoda who congratulates them. Zatt, Biff and Ganudi are already out of the cave. THe younglings are worried for their two comrades who are seriously running out of time. Petro realizes he's running in circle when he reaches the first room again, but he hears Katuni calling for him. She explains she's trapped and asks him to help her get out, but he says he still has to find his crystal and he runs off. Ganudi says they should help the two stragglers, but Yoda stops her. Katuni hopelessly bangs on the wall and stats crying. Petro changes his mind and gets back to her. They both push at the same time and manage to break the wall. Katuni wants to run to the exit, but Petro spots something in the rubble. Something... shiny. He tells her to go and she does, having to slip on the ice like a video game character to go under the nearly frozen archway. It closes completely behind her and she tells the others Petro is still inside. Yoda tells them to not give up on their friend and everyone looks at the archway. Through which Petro bursts and rolls over on the ground presenting his crystal. The younglings rejoice and Ganudi asks Yoda how he managed to break the ice. Yoda explains it was just a thin sheet of ice, easy to break if one wants to. Katuni says he said they would be trapped and he explains they were, but only by their mind. Yoda also syas they ahve all learned a lesson: biff learned courage, Ganudi hope, Gunji patience, Zatt trust, Katuni confidence (huh, I'd have swapped those two around, personnally) and Petro selflessness. He then tells them to keep preciously their crystals, calling them young Jedi. End of the episode.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

I really liked that one. I might even call it my favourite so far. Like I have said in the recpa, I've always liked the notion that the lightsabers were somewhat magical, with a special bound to their maker, like being wileded by their maker makes them easier to use or more powerful somehow. "This weapon is your life" and all that. Maybe it's because I've played KOTOR II, where the kyber crystal in the dantooine cave calls to the Exile and becomes more powerful with your character. I also like the idea that a lightsaber's hue says something about the one who made it, but with only two colors allowed to the good guys and one for the bad guys, fat chance of that ever happening. So each Jedi having to find a specific crystal for their first lightsaber and go through a trial tailored to their own biggest flaw to get it, me likey.

Then again, Yoda getting there before everyone else, sorta implies he could have set all of this up rather than it being the will of the Force. The little goblin having foresight powers and all.

Despite the episode having six different protagonists, it manages to give them all roughly the same level of attention and develop each's personality a little. These little buggers were likeable, even Petro the designated "bad" one at the beginning, and even if they only show up for this standalone, and are inevitably murdered before the end of the year, it was nice meeting them.

The ice wall trick was a good example of "Jedi truth" putting pressure on them without putting them at serious risk*, but also being a teaching opportunity.

*Although one does wonder what Yoda would have done if Katuni had fallen off that cliff or gunji tried to croos too early and fell into that freeing water.


*Next up:* A test of strength. I'm guessing Maul, and judging by my track record of last season, that means it's unlikely to involve Maul.

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## Sapphire Guard

Nice self contained short nice one. I wish there were more of these.

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## Grim Portent

I presume that wookiees don't wear clothing and can just cope with various climates easily for what ultimately comes down to a costume/design issue in the original trilogy.

Chewbacca established precedent for wookiees basically never wearing clothes, despite being on Tatooine and Hoth which have wildly different climates, and with Kashyyyk being portrayed as a warm end of temperate forest world. From a practical perspective this is because of the costume, but I imagine there's some in-universe explanation about their metabolism being able to adapt to extreme temperatures for some reason or other.


R2 seems to be pulling double duty as Ahsoka's droid on occasion, probably told to keep an eye on her by Anakin or something, which is basically just an excuse to shoehorn him into situations. Really she should just have her own astromech, R7, with her whenever an astromech is needed for a story she is in but Anakin isn't.


My assumption is that the hazards of the cave are largely not all that dangerous, at least to force sensitives, and some might not even be real. Between advanced medical tech, superhuman ability, alien biology and the fact that the cave wants people to find their kyber crystals I imagine the rate of serious injuries or fatalities is probably extremely low. I'm not sure if any of the cave is an illusion, but I wouldn't put it past it to be a place that warps perception and only threatens harm for the purpose of testing visitors.

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## Mechalich

> I presume that wookiees don't wear clothing and can just cope with various climates easily for what ultimately comes down to a costume/design issue in the original trilogy.
> 
> Chewbacca established precedent for wookiees basically never wearing clothes, despite being on Tatooine and Hoth which have wildly different climates, and with Kashyyyk being portrayed as a warm end of temperate forest world. From a practical perspective this is because of the costume, but I imagine there's some in-universe explanation about their metabolism being able to adapt to extreme temperatures for some reason or other.


To my knowledge there is not, though Wookiees may simply have a relatively high temperature tolerance, as camels do. It's also possible, even likely, that it gets quite cold at night on Kashyyyk, given how tall the trees are, which would help explain why Wookiees developed such coats in the first place. The question of not overheating on Tatooine is harder to solve, especially the sail barge sequence in RotJ which involves Chewie being outdoors for a prolonged period (I assume the Mos Eisley Cantina and even Jabba's dungeons have A/C). Perhaps Luke was helping him out subtly using the Force?

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## Fyraltari

> Nice self contained short nice one. I wish there were more of these.


Having watched the next one, turns out it's actually the first of an arc.



> From a practical perspective this is because of the costume


Obviously, wearing a coat on top of the costume would have been very uncomfortable for Peter Mayhew.




> R2 seems to be pulling double duty as Ahsoka's droid on occasion, probably told to keep an eye on her by Anakin or something, which is basically just an excuse to shoehorn him into situations. Really she should just have her own astromech, R7, with her whenever an astromech is needed for a story she is in but Anakin isn't.


Oh, I was more confused about what he was doing here when he played no part in the episode, but he's got a small role to play in the next one, so whatever.





> My assumption is that the hazards of the cave are largely not all that dangerous, at least to force sensitives, and some might not even be real. Between advanced medical tech, superhuman ability, alien biology and the fact that the cave wants people to find their kyber crystals I imagine the rate of serious injuries or fatalities is probably extremely low. I'm not sure if any of the cave is an illusion, but I wouldn't put it past it to be a place that warps perception and only threatens harm for the purpose of testing visitors.


I dunno, what would have happened if Gunji hadn't been patient enough and tried to cross the lake before it was frozen solid?



> To my knowledge there is not







> I assume the Mos Eisley Cantina and even Jabba's dungeons have A/C


Ever notice how most buildings on Tatooine seems to be partially underground (the Lars homestead is obvious but both the Cantina and Jabba's palace have visitors go down to the main area after coming in at ground level) and lack windows to the outside? This would keep the inside temperature constant somewhere around the night/day average and was probably inspired by the local architecture of Tataouine.

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## Aeson

> Ever notice how most buildings on Tatooine seems to be partially underground (the Lars homestead is obvious but both the Cantina and Jabba's palace have visitors go down to the main area after coming in at ground level) and lack windows to the outside? This would keep the inside temperature constant somewhere around the night/day average and was probably inspired by the local architecture of Tataouine.


They also appear to be thick-walled and generally have relatively light-colored exteriors, which should also help to passively limit the interior temperatures.

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## Sapphire Guard

Yes, it's the first of an arc.  But the episode itself is nice and self contained in a way that's unusual for TCW.

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## Grim Portent

> I dunno, what would have happened if Gunji hadn't been patient enough and tried to cross the lake before it was frozen solid?


I imagine he would get very cold, and in turn become seriously ill, but probably not to the point of being at serious risk of death. Medicine in Star Wars is inconsistent, but generally leans towards being very good.

That said, he didn't try to cross and none of the students failed to get their crystals or seemed to be in significant peril, which leads to the possibility that the Jedi know if someone would have the psychological failings or physical frailty to be at real risk in the cave, and would have already expelled such people from the Order.


In a more adult oriented show we might have seen some injuries, death or failure, but I don't think many writers like the idea of the Jedi sending eight year olds to their deaths as a regular matter of business, so would assume the intent is that the dangers are largely a matter of perception.

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## Fyraltari

> That said, he didn't try to cross and none of the students failed to get their crystals or seemed to be in significant peril, which leads to the possibility that the Jedi know if someone would have the psychological failings or physical frailty to be at real risk in the cave, and would have already expelled such people from the Order.


That would negate the point of the cave. A trial you have no chance of failing is no trial at all.

That said, it occurs to me that Yoda is close enough that he'd sense if any youngling was in actual peril/pain and intervene rapidly.





> I don't think many writers like the idea of the Jedi sending eight year olds to their deaths as a regular matter of business


Oh the Jedi are perfectly fine with that.

Exhibit A: The Jedi Order sends clone-troopers into battle.
Exhibit B: The Jedi Order sends Padawan-learners into battle.

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## Grim Portent

> That would negate the point of the cave. A trial you have no chance of failing is no trial at all.
> 
> That said, it occurs to me that Yoda is close enough that he'd sense if any youngling was in actual peril/pain and intervene rapidly.


This is fundamentally a test of character more than anything else, or a glorified lesson, it makes sense to winnow out those who are more likely to fail than pass before they have to be put in a position of potential peril, because he former aren't fit to be jedi in the first place.

There are two groups of people who will get to take this trial; children who are already extremely suited to being Jedi, and children who are almost well suited for the role but who need a few tendencies curbed or traits instilled by events that seem perilous but don't actually have to be. Neither should be at much risk unless the Jedi wildly misjudged their students.




> Oh the Jedi are perfectly fine with that.
> 
> Exhibit A: The Jedi Order sends clone-troopers into battle.
> Exhibit B: The Jedi Order sends Padawan-learners into battle.


Clones aren't children by any conventional definition. They're biologically mature and have extensive and sped up educations. They're just naive, somewhat socially stunted and trained with a very narrow set of skills. To call them children is like calling a Geonosian adult a child because they mature faster than humans. They're more like adults who were raised in a cult, which is obviously still highly unethical to use as a basis for an army.

Padawans are essentially medieval squires in SPAAAACE with all the ethical issues that brings, but it is worth noting that before the show they tended to be in their late teens or older. Not sure how old Obi-Wan was in Phantom Menace, or Anakin in Attack of the Clones, but they certainly weren't children. Clone Wars swung the age of padawans waaaay down in order to have a child protagonist and never really bothers to think about what that says about things. 

In universe this could be attributed to the Jedi not being used to war, and having a long tradition of bringing their padawans to help with diplomatic missions, minor criminal matters or to help keep the peace during civil protests. Then war rolls around and they decide, being bad at the whole war thing, to keep bringing their padawans with them and by the time they stop to think about how ****ed up that is they're already in dire straights due to casualties among the full fledged Jedi.

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## Mechalich

> Padawans are essentially medieval squires in SPAAAACE with all the ethical issues that brings, but it is worth noting that before the show they tended to be in their late teens or older. Not sure how old Obi-Wan was in Phantom Menace, or Anakin in Attack of the Clones, but they certainly weren't children. Clone Wars swung the age of padawans waaaay down in order to have a child protagonist and never really bothers to think about what that says about things.
> 
> In universe this could be attributed to the Jedi not being used to war, and having a long tradition of bringing their padawans to help with diplomatic missions, minor criminal matters or to help keep the peace during civil protests. Then war rolls around and they decide, being bad at the whole war thing, to keep bringing their padawans with them and by the time they stop to think about how ****ed up that is they're already in dire straights due to casualties among the full fledged Jedi.


Early teenage Padawans have always been a thing. Anakin is actually the premier example: he, at the age of eleven, skipped the Initiate stage of training entirely to become a Padawan directly. Padawan ages are best attributed to how Star Wars has a historical cultural context. Star Wars very much operates using late 19th/early 20th century Western social mores, and in the 19th century child labor was common, including in military contexts (especially on ships).

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## pendell

> Early teenage Padawans have always been a thing. Anakin is actually the premier example: he, at the age of eleven, skipped the Initiate stage of training entirely to become a Padawan directly. Padawan ages are best attributed to how Star Wars has a historical cultural context. Star Wars very much operates using late 19th/early 20th century Western social mores, and in the 19th century child labor was common, including in military contexts (especially on ships).


*Nods*   The Royal Navy used  Powder monkeys, boys as young as ten, to deliver gunpowder from magazines to the guns. My understanding is that the passages were built as small as possible to minimize the risk of explosion, and therefore they needed small people to perform the deliveries. 

Something else to consider is that there really wasn't such a thing as "higher education" in those days.  You stayed at home with your parents until you were 12, at which point you'd be apprenticed out and work your way up to journeyman and then to master crafter in your own right.   If you were a farmer's child you'd stay at home and work on your parent's farm until you'd  either saved up enough to move out on your own, or da retires and you take over as farmer.  

Because of this, there really wasn't any such thing as "teenager" or "adolescent" in those days; you went straight from "child" to "young adult". You'd be marching as a drummer boy in the army  or serving as a powder boy in the navy at 12, a full soldier at 17, married at 15 or 16, a grandparent in your thirties, dead at fifty.  

Star Wars harkens back to the past, yes, but it may also harken forward to the future. We have a unique situation where the barrier between child and adult is multiple years of secondary schooling followed by college education followed by years of debt.   Is this indeed the future of the world, or is it an unsustainable outlier in which the barrier is significantly lowered, either by advances in education or societal collapse? I suppose time will tell. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Sapphire Guard

I suspect it's more closely supervised than it appears, given how perfectly tailored the trials were and how at least one (the ice sealing the doorway) was an illusion.

Possibly the Force knows what difficulty setting to set.

If by 'perfectly fine with' you mean 'very very reluctantly and not really by choice' then I suppose.

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## Fyraltari

> This is fundamentally a test of character more than anything else, or a glorified lesson, it makes sense to winnow out those who are more likely to fail than pass before they have to be put in a position of potential peril, because he former aren't fit to be jedi in the first place.
> 
> There are two groups of people who will get to take this trial; children who are already extremely suited to being Jedi, and children who are almost well suited for the role but who need a few tendencies curbed or traits instilled by events that seem perilous but don't actually have to be. Neither should be at much risk unless the Jedi wildly misjudged their students.


Oh yes, definitely.




> Clones aren't children by any conventional definition. They're biologically mature and have extensive and sped up educations. They're just naive, somewhat socially stunted and trained with a very narrow set of skills. To call them children is like calling a Geonosian adult a child because they mature faster than humans. They're more like adults who were raised in a cult, which is obviously still highly unethical to use as a basis for an army.
> 
> Padawans are essentially medieval squires in SPAAAACE with all the ethical issues that brings, but it is worth noting that before the show they tended to be in their late teens or older. Not sure how old Obi-Wan was in Phantom Menace, or Anakin in Attack of the Clones, but they certainly weren't children. Clone Wars swung the age of padawans waaaay down in order to have a child protagonist and never really bothers to think about what that says about things.








> If by 'perfectly fine with' you mean 'very very reluctantly and not really by choice' then I suppose.


Who exactly is forcing the Jedi to send padawans into battle?

And I am not aware of _any_ reluctance on the part of the Jedi to use the clone army. In fact Yoda's decision to take it to Geonosis, starting the war proper, was completely unprompted by anyone as afar as I know.

It seems to me that the Jedi are all fine with the idea of children being in combat situations... because they all were when _they_ were padawans and their masters were when _they_ were padawans and their masters' masters...

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## Mechalich

> Who exactly is forcing the Jedi to send padawans into battle?


The casualty levels?

Throughout the course of the Clone Wars the Grand Army of the Republic gets _bigger_ while at the same time the Jedi Order gets _smaller_. Command resources have to be acquired from _somewhere_. They can, and do, promote clones to high ranks, but there seems to be some sort of rule that makes it so no clone can be promoted to the rank of general or admiral (promotion purely on merit would probably place the GAR entirely in the hands of Clone Officers, and that would be a PR disaster). They can, and do, allow for non-clone non-Force sensitive officers to enter the command structure, but the Jedi Order can't control those people's choices and the example of Tarkin makes it very clear that the realize how dangerous this can be, especially since the Order knows there's rot in the upper echelons of the Republic even is they fail to find out precisely where. Consequently, they do what military forces throughout human history have done and recruit further down the age ladder (an amazingly large number of major historical conflicts end with the winning side fielding a force of adults against a bunch of teenagers and children fielded by the losers in the final campaigns). Ahsoka herself is an example. She was _assigned_ to Anakin, a very new knight, in the hopes of accelerating her training. Knights are supposed to _choose_ their Padawans after much consideration and meditation, so her very existence is a character demonstrates how the war is straining the Order's long-established structure to the breaking point. 




> It seems to me that the Jedi are all fine with the idea of children being in combat situations... because they all were when _they_ were padawans and their masters were when _they_ were padawans and their masters' masters...


_Everyone_ in the main Star Wars culture is fine with teens (not children, we don't see any combatants under ten), in combat situations. It's just how Star Wars society works. Lux Bonteri, who is clearly intended to be roughly Ahsoka's age, fights alongside the guerillas in the Onderon Arc and nobody objects that he's too young to be fighting. The various youth of Mandalore fight in that arc as well. Sabine Wren is sixteen when Rebels starts and had already been an Imperial Cadet and spent time as an independent bounty hunter, implying she was in combat situations by the age of fourteen if not earlier. In Solo, when Han goes to join the Empire, he's supposed to be 18, but the recruitment officer doesn't bother to ask about his age, or for ID, or anything. He could easily have been 15-16 and gotten signed up.

Padawans look bad for the Jedi since they are with their masters from the moment the get chosen, meaning it's impossible for the narrative to hide all the dangerous situations they get into in the way it does the fact that there are many soldiers in the galaxy who are not adults. It's one of many examples of things in Star Wars that are generally different from modern Western cultural values, but that is most noticeable in the Jedi because they have a giant spotlight on them all the time.

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## Sapphire Guard

There hasn't been a war like this in a thousand years, so evidently this amount of heavy combat is not routine for Padawan. Ahsoka seems unusually young, by virtue of being the protagonist of a TV show that needs to relate to the kids. 

Since you have seen the next episode, they make it clear that the youngling gang are _not_ intended to be tangling with pirates and droid armies yet, that it happened was pure bad luck. So they're not 'perfectly happy' sending eight year olds into combat at all.

Also remember that Senate vote in AOTC authorising the army? It was not the Jedi's decision to use it in the first place.

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## Fyraltari

Sorry for the wait everyone, the last month has been something of a mess for me and I have neglected somethings way more important than this watchthrough. Anyways, on with the show.

*Season 5, Episode 7: A Test of Strength*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Turns out, the previous episode wasn't a standalone and we're back with the younglings. Ahsoka comes to the group, who is watching Petro the human show-off his moves with a training stick. She tells them that now that they all have a kyber crystal it's time to build their lightsabers. On the ship on the way back to Coruscant? Where's the rush? Shouldn't they be doing this in a Temple? Anyway, they'll get help from a lightsaber designer called Huyang. Who is a droid. Interesting that he has a proper name and not a serial number, makes him stand out from other droids. Also, since he's voiced by David Tennant, I should count myself lucky he's not called DR-10. Also, how have they not already met on the trip _to_ Illum?

Ganudi the Rodian doesn't think they can learn anything from a _droid_, Huyang says he's taught many a Jedi before them and he will teach many a Jedi _after_ them. Ah, no you won't! Helps that he's got the designs of every lightsaber ever made (and who made them) recorded in his circuits. He rattles off a few options they have concerning material and shape (I wonder if the Order has a policy regarding the more exotic designs like double-bladed?) and lists a few conflicts the Jedi have been involved with and that the lightsabers are the Jedi's only true ally in battle (what about the Force, heh?). He caps it off by saying that they still need to "awaken the Force within" their crystals and since they don't know how to do that yet, they'll have to learn from a_droid_ for the time being.

Finally he remarks to Gunji the wookiee that Jedi rarely come from their species and ask them to reach out with their hand and to "feel" their ideal lightsaber. Zatt describes a lightsaber made of wood. It's not a common choice, but it's been done before. It'll need to be wood from the brylarch tree to be hard enough, so Huyang goes looking for some in various drawers he has. He brings a drawer back and assembles a lightsaber out of the pieces inside which amazes the children (so, you don't have any wood, then?) and tells them it's time to start the work.

Cut to outside the ship and a familiar-looking space-saucer approaching it. Onboard is none other than Hondo Ohnaka and his crew, planning to attack the Jedi ship. These are the vilains of our episode. Oh boy. One crewmate reminds him he'd sworn off messing with Jedi ever again, but he says that he has sources telling him these are just younglings on a training mission but carrying extremely valuable kyber crystals. Okay. First, attacking children? This is a new low for you, Hondo, and I was _just_ starting to like you. Second, does he really expect the JEdi Order to let him get away murdering younglings!? they're going to come after him, violently... Is what I thought until I remembered the Trandoshans who had apparently captured younglings for years without the Order suspecting a thing. Man, the Jedi _are_ terrible caretakers. Third, Hondo has a source inside the Jedi Temple!? What the ****?

Meanwhile, the younglings are all seated around a holo-projection of a lightsaber's blueprint and using the Force to assemble theirs. With their back turned away from the projection. Petro finishes first and says that with his new saber, he's going to duel Obi-Wan and kill Grievous. I guess the lessons from the gathering still need a little time to be fully internalized. Huyang looks over his work and tell him he's put the emitter matrix upside-down which means the saber would explode in his hand when ignited. He has the boy start over from the beginning. They keep working for a while until the ship gets knocked by something. Ahsoka runs off to the cockpit to ask R2, who has been flying solo the entire trip, what's going on. The pirates are shooting at their hyperdrive and manage to cripple it before they can escape.

Hondo has them harpooned (guess not everyone can afford tractor beams) and prepares to board. For some reason moving a boarding tube to the ship necessitates three pirates in spacesuits outside. Huyang quickly realizes they're under attack and he gathers all the kyber crystals to store them in a cavity in his chest. Petro, however used basic sleight-of-hand to keep hold of his.

The pirates start walking in and Ahsoka regroups with the younglings and Huyang. They hide in the ventilation shafts. PEtro would rather fight while Katuni the Tholothian wonders if this is part of their training. Ahsoka sends Ganudi and Zatt the Nautolan to the cockpit to secure it while the others go to the hold with Huyang and seal themselves inside it while she's going to reroute power to the engines (magically fixing the damage, I guess) so that they can break free of the harpoons. This will have the added advantage of unsealing the boarding tube, the resulting vacuum will suck everyone not in the (sealed) cockpit and hold into space. Dang, Ahsoka fights dirty. She explicitly forbids them from engaging the pirates in combat and sends them on their way.

Meanwhile Hondo boards the ship and exclaims "I smell... Profits!" Hey, I know that meme. When told that the ship appears deserted he immediately guesses they must be hiding in the ventilation system. He orders his men to bring him the younglings and the crystals and to kill anyone who resists. One pirate is not comfortable with _murdering children_ so Ohnaka tells him to just think about how rich they're going to be. The pirates apparently can't fit in the shafts (pretty sure they're roomy enough, but whatever) so they try smoking the Jedi out.

Zatt and Ganudi makes it to the cockpit but they are spotted by a pirate. Fortunately, R2 tases him unconscious and they lock him out. tHe others aren't so lucky as the smoke forces them to exit the shafts... right in the middle of the pirates. Petro slips his crystal into his lightsaber and turns it on (depsite the others telling him the matrix is still inverted) , the blades does appear but fiddles out immediately. the pirates mock him and he throws his saber at one of them who claims it for himself. Petro tells him he couldn't handle it, so the pirate turns it on again and the saber starts malfunctioning. The children jump into the shaft again as the weapon explodes, knocking the pirates out. Smart kid. Petro gets his crystal back and the children and the droid run off in the corridor. Biff the Ithorian and Huyang disapprove of his actions but the others are convinced that fighting back is their only chance. Also, the explosion damaged Huyang, he's in no condition to fight.

Ahsoka gets to the engine room, turns a couple switches and call Zatt to tell him she's done. He tells her the others haven't reached the hold yet, so she starts worrying. Gunji and Katuni are in the training room, setting all the training remotes to the highest difficulty. Biff lures a pirate to them, and by lure I mean "runs screaming while a weeqay misses every shot at barely two meters of distance. They lock him (and a friend) and call Zatt in the intercom to have him lock them in, then they turn the remotes on. They rejoin Huyang and Petro, open a door... and see Hondo and a boatload of pirates on the other side.

Hondo demands the crystals "and no-one gets hurt... much." Ahsoka barges in and Force-slams three pirates against a wall. She tells Hondo that he's really putting himself in trouble with the Jedi this time and he basically rpelies "no witnesses, no crime). She comments that he was more hospitable the last time they've met (I don't think he's ever offered her hospitality, though?) and draws her weapon when he says his mood is profit-based. He's got an electrostaff, which allows him to give Ahsoka a run for her money. The others run off but a pirate gets a lucky shot in and decapitates Huynag. He complains that he's been on this ship for a thousand years and has never lost a fight in that time (how many have you had?) and aggressively walks towards the pirate who shoots hi arms off. This is starting to feel like a certain _Mounty Python_ gag. the droid kicks the ruffian unconscious and the younglings gather his bits before running away to the hold. Ahsoka tells Hondo she doesn't want to hurt him. *Why?* He's literally trying to kill you and the children under your supervision. Why extend him this kind of grace and not to, say Cad Bane?

Zatt tells Ahsoka the others are in the hold and she orders him to proceed, even though she's not safe. He does and the ship starts breaking free. The docking tube bends and an aperture into space opens, sucking the pirates and Ahsoka. Ahsoka and Hondo manages to grab the walls but she lets go so she can quit literally kick him out. the pirates fall into the tube (and one into space) but Ahsoka manages to get a hold of the door leading into it. She Force-pushes Hondo&Co into their own ship and closes the hatch ordering Zatt to jump to hyperspace. And at that moment one more pirate falls into her pushing the both of them through the closing hatch and aboard the pirate ship. The Jedi ship jumps into hyperspace and the children rejoice. I would recommend avoiding the training room until they get to Corsucant, though. Zatt goes to repair Huyang while Petro gushes out over Ahsoka's fighting skills. Which is when they realize she's missing. She's been captured (come on, she could totally beat these fools, or at least kill a couple) and Hondo isn't happy about all the money he hasn't gained because of her (he doesn't even mention the three men he lost) so he's going to sell her. Oh great, I hope we're not going back to Zygerria.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Pretty good episode overall. Ahsoka and the younglings make a good team. I suppose, it showcases how overtaxed the Jedi Order is that they have to trust this kind of mission to a Padawan (makes me wonder why Yoda couldn't come along, though, he _was_ on Ilum).

Hondo is still rather competent, which is nice, but he really keeps just biting off more than he can chew. At some point he's going to need to accept that he just can't keep up with Jedi. But really, attempted child-murder has got to be the foulest thing he's ever done but the show steadfastly refuses to cast him as a villain. It's fine to have a wild card character that is sometimes with and sometimes against the heroes, but the rogueish charm doesn't really work if you make him despicable.

Huyang is a very interesting idea. He dates as far back as the last war with the Sith and while having the secrets of the lightsaber reside in someone who has no connection to the Force may seem counterintuitive, his potential immortality offsets that very much. Still one has to wonder if that's not the kind of things that would stifle creativity and innovation.When do you think was the last time a Jedi looked at a lightsaber and thought "could we improve on this design"? Also him having an actual name is very interesting. I don't think any other droid has an actual name in all of _Star Wars_. It makes it look like he comes from a truly different time, where droids where allowed more individuality. Or maybe he didn't always have a name but since his memory was never wiped in a thousand years he developed enough of a personality to pick one. Kind of puts Obi-Wan casual disregard for droids in an even worse light, now.

Also, it's neat that of all the potential Jedi, Petro wished to duel Kenobi, not Windu, Yoda or Plo Koon, shows how much of a reputation he has.


*Next up:* Bound for Rescue. Logically the younglings should report Ahsoka's capture to the Temple who would send a rescue team (likely Anakin, Rex and Obi-wan again), but I bet they're going to try to rescue her themselves (and that no mention will be made of the two pirates locked in the training room).

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## Grim Portent

> makes me wonder why Yoda couldn't come along, though, he _was_ on Ilum).


Hit up the Ilum dance scene, he must. Gotten his groove on for 300 years, he has not.

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## Mechalich

> Still one has to wonder if that's not the kind of things that would stifle creativity and innovation.When do you think was the last time a Jedi looked at a lightsaber and thought "could we improve on this design"?


A lightsaber is actually (especially in Disney canon) fairly simplistic mechanically. It's basically the crystal, a power cell, the emitter matrix/shroud (the bit on top that produces the blade shape), the crystal, and the on/off switch. Everything else is either a luxury modification to make it do something special (such as adding multiple crystals to produce a variable blade length) or is almost entirely cosmetic. 

The Jedi can't change the crystals (because reasons). There do seem to be matrix/shroud variants that change things like the width or transparency of the blade (for example, the blades in Rebels are thinner), but this doesn't appear to make much difference, in part because a lightsaber is so massively overkill against almost anything you'd attack with it, a single-digit percentage change in efficacy doesn't make much difference. The Jedi did upgrade the power cells used in lightsabers over time as power cell technology advanced, but since Star Wars technologies advance very slowly, it's probably been thousands of years since the last major compact power cell upgrade.

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## Kornaki

> A lightsaber is actually (especially in Disney canon) fairly simplistic mechanically. It's basically the crysta power cell, the emitter matrix/shroud (the bit on top that produces the blade shape), the crystal, and the on/off switch. Everything else is either a luxury modification to make it do something special (such as adding multiple crystals to produce a variable blade length) or is almost entirely cosmetic.


Just off the top of my head,  different shapes (why not make a shield?), an auto off switch if you're about to stab yourself,  a GPS tracker so if you lose it you can find it.

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## Mechalich

> Just off the top of my head,  different shapes (why not make a shield?), an auto off switch if you're about to stab yourself,  a GPS tracker so if you lose it you can find it.


An auto-off switch (which most lightsabers have, since they deactivate when dropped) or an embedded tracking device are accessories, not anything integrated into the main tech of the lightsaber itself. There are all kinds of possible accessories to a lightsaber, and they might make for a better product overall, but they aren't really a design adjustment. 

In any case, what Huyang is doing isn't really engineering anyway. The central components of the lightsaber are fixed. He's acting more like a jewelry consultant, guiding the younglings in building the setting for their magical jewels in a way that maximizes their personal resonance.

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## Fyraltari

> Hit up the Ilum dance scene, he must. Gotten his groove on for 300 years, he has not.


Ilum is surprisingly lively for a frozen rock this time of year.



> There are all kinds of possible accessories to a lightsaber, and they might make for a better product overall, but they aren't really a design adjustment.


That does sound like a design ajustment to me. Like throughout the franchise we see lightsabers with two blades, with a crossguard, with variable blade-length, that can do the helicopter for some reason, that can collapse into a blaster, etc. All of these in the hands of people operating outside the Jedi Order.

I just think that if, instead of a single immortal professor showing every single Jedi the correct way to make a lightsaber when they are literal children, there had been a line of Jedi Masters (or several) passing down the knowledge and responsability every generation, there would have been more opportunity for "the correct way" to be questionned and more diverse designs to emerge.

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## Mechalich

I suppose it depends on the how you define the pieces. 

The central action in a lightsaber is you have a power source, you run that source through a kyber crystal, and then you push the result through an emitter that produces a shaped 'blade' of plasma out in a sustained loop. That's the engine of a lightsaber and it only really has three components, and one of them cannot be changed. 

Now, critically, it can be duplicated. Many of the more substantial lightsaber variants like double-bladed, variable blade length, crossguards, etc. all require multiple crystals, emitters, and power cells. A double-bladed lightsaber light Maul's is effectively two lightsabers welded together (in Legends there was a Sith who taught Darth Bane who did exactly that, and could switch from double-bladed to dual sabers by cutting the weld as a result). The Jedi do have a bunch of dogma against these kind of variations, probably based around the idea that giving an apprentice more than one crystal is somehow indulging greed or something. 

Now, you can take the engine of the saber and put it into basically any kind of housing you want. Heck, you can put it on the end of a staff and have a pike instead of a saber. Essentially you can make the lightsaber version of a car, a truck, an SUV, even a motorcycle, but just as all of those run on internal combustion engines (and big vehicles mostly just have more cylinders than smaller ones) you can't change the core reaction. There's no lightsaber equivalent of a diesel.

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## dancrilis

> ... there would have been more opportunity for "the correct way" to be questionned and more diverse designs to emerge.


There is a recent short star wars comic where Obi-Wan explains to Anakin why the Jedi use lightsabers, it boils down to them being difficult weapons to use and acts as a symbol to highlight the Jedi's restraint and skill i.e the galaxy knows that the Jedi could use kyber crystals to create bombs or guns or what have you but those would instill fear rather then respect.

So the Jedi don't want to question the basic design.

There is also a follow on story where Palpatine explains to Vader why the Sith use lightsabers, it boils down to 'they look badass'.

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## hamishspence

> Now, critically, it can be duplicated. Many of the more substantial lightsaber variants like double-bladed, variable blade length, crossguards, etc. all require multiple crystals, emitters, and power cells. A double-bladed lightsaber light Maul's is effectively two lightsabers welded together (in Legends there was a Sith who taught Darth Bane who did exactly that, and could switch from double-bladed to dual sabers by cutting the weld as a result). The Jedi do have a bunch of dogma against these kind of variations, probably based around the idea that giving an apprentice more than one crystal is somehow indulging greed or something.


In the newcanon, plenty of "regular Jedi" have double-bladed lightsabers (The Temple Guard, Krell, etc) - so there may not be all _that_ much dogma. In the High Republic era (200 years before TPM) there's even a Jedi who uses a lightwhip (hers is a regular lightsaber that can be switched to "lightwhip mode") - lightwhips were only used by Sith in Legends.

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## Mechalich

> In the newcanon, plenty of "regular Jedi" have double-bladed lightsabers (The Temple Guard, Krell, etc) - so there may not be all _that_ much dogma. In the High Republic era (200 years before TPM) there's even a Jedi who uses a lightwhip (hers is a regular lightsaber that can be switched to "lightwhip mode") - lightwhips were only used by Sith in Legends.


True, maybe it's a limited restriction applying primarily to students. Theoretically, the idea would be that you have to qualify on the base model before you can move on to more advanced designs. Lots of actual law enforcement organizations work that way; everyone has to train with the service pistol, but you have to take advanced courses to use rifles or shotguns.

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## Sapphire Guard

Every lightsabre is custom made by the wielder, though, so the time a Jedi looks at the basic design and adapts it is...every time.

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## Fyraltari

> Every lightsabre is custom made by the wielder, though, so the time a Jedi looks at the basic design and adapts it is...every time.


No, they pick from a variety of options within the same design everytime. They're not inventing anything.

Edit: Which, I feel the need to point out, is a perfectly fine given they're ten-year-olds, nobody is asking _them_ to invent anything.

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## Peelee

> In the newcanon, plenty of "regular Jedi" have double-bladed lightsabers


In Legends as well. 

Not commenting on lightwhips as those are dumb.  :Small Tongue: 



> True, maybe it's a limited restriction applying primarily to students. Theoretically, the idea would be that you have to qualify on the base model before you can move on to more advanced designs. Lots of actual law enforcement organizations work that way; everyone has to train with the service pistol, but you have to take advanced courses to use rifles or shotguns.


What source are you pulling from?

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## Fyraltari

> In the newcanon, plenty of "regular Jedi" have double-bladed lightsabers (The Temple Guard, Krell, etc)


...
I'm not sure how I managed to forget about Krell.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 5, Episode 8: Bound for rescue*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

So it turns out the improvised "repairs" of the last episode were only good for one jump into hyperspace. the younglings, now stranded into space, contact the fleet, more precisely "_the_ General Kenobi?" They quickly recap the last episode for him and he says he'll send Cody pick them up while he goes to Florum to deal with Hondo. "Will Ahsoka be alright? -Hondo would be even more of a fool than I think he is to even think to hurt her." ... I think you have an overly optimistic assessment of Ohnaka's cognitive abilities, Obi-Wan. Naturally Petro wants to be part of the rescue mission, but Kenobi is having none of it. However, before Cody or Kenobi can go anywhere, a separatist fleet shows up and opens fire, putting the rescue mission on the backburner.

While waiting to be rescued, Katooni, Gunji, Petro and Byph are assembling their lightsibers. Not sure how Petro got new parts since Huyang is still in pieces. It's a very nice sequence, each doing essentially the same thing but the levitating pieces move at different speeds giving each a bit of personnality. Katooni is calm and methodical, Petro is quicker, Byph is unsure and then precise and Gunji is focused on one part at a time. Gunji's got a green blade while Byph and Petro have blues. Katooni's lightsaber doesn't work yet, though. They start wondering where the rescue is and Petro insists they try and rescue Ahsoka themselves. Gunji and Byph (surprisingly) agree while Katooni reminds them the reason they are treated like children is because they are. In come Ganodi and Zatt who explains they have a big problem: the coolant system is leaking meaning they risk an explosion soon. They have to land to "let the system reset". Petro points out that since they have to land anyway, they might as well do it on Florum and rescue Ahsoka.

Cut to Florum, where the pirates are throwing a party, because why not? Tano tells Honaka to let her go. He says that'd be unprofitable and short-sighted. I'm surprised that last one features in his vocabulary, honestly. Then he teases her with some alcohol for no reason other than being a prick. MEanwhile, the Republican fleet isn't doing so well and the Separatists are sending boarding parties. One of which lands in the central rift on Obi-Wan's cruiser (you know, the one the hangars all connect to?) and out comes Grievous. Laughing. In space. I get surviving in space for a while, but he can speak in space? He and Kenobi meet face to face and the cyborg crushes a clone underfoot, something the Jedi vows to make him regret. You know, even if you did manage to kill him there and then, I doubt he'd think "Ah, if only I'd just killed 19,999 clones instead of 20,000, he'd have let me lived!" THey start fighting.

The children land on Florum, in the middle of nowhere for safety. Zatt orders R2 to finish repairing Pr. Huyang, and Petro tells ganodi to stay with the ship, because she's the only one who's done flight simulation at the Temple and they're probably going to need to make a quick escape. She agrees. They start walking towards the pirate base (Zatt's scanners detect a big power source) and Petro admits he doesn't actually have a plan to rescue Ahsoka, but they'll think of something right? Ahsoka tells Hondo the Republic won't pay a ransom for her and the separatists would rather kill them both than pay him. Ohnaka admits Dooku holds a grudge against him since the whole "hostage" business. I dunno, you seem to be doing an awful lot of breathing for a guy a Sith Lord has a grudge against. Not to worry, Hondo has another client in mind: more nefarious criminals than him, who would pay handsomely for a Jedi especially a _female_ one (I don't like the way he empathized that word at all) and who don't care if she's alive or dead. Okay, what the actual ****, Hondo!

In space, Kenobi throws a fuel barrel at Grievous (the resulting explosion doesn't even hurt him) and runs for it. He orders the crew to abandon ship and tells Cody they're going to leave Grievous a parting gift before escaping. On Florum, the yougnlings spot a huge speeder belonging to a travelling carnival act headed to Hondo's base. They introdue themselves to the ringmaster, a Dug called Priego, as stranded... acrobats who would want to join. They convince him by improvising a couple human (sapient?) pyramids and he eagerly take them in, never questionning why five preteen acrobats would be wandering the galaxy alone. Back to space, Grievous takes over the command center of the ship and orders every bit of intel recovered. A message left by Kenobi plays, congratulating him on his victory and telling him the ship is set to self-destruct. Why would you ever tell him that? the Republican soldiers leave in the escape pods while Grievous makes it to his shuttle just before the cruiser explodes. Obi-Wan watches the light-show and laments that the younglings are on their own. You are in escape pods in the middle of space battle you side is clearly losing, worry about yourself, man!

The carnies come to the pirate's base with loud music, juggling clowns, dancing twi'leks wearing Hutt-masks (this is even weirded than last time!) and tamed colorful beasts. Is that a Gamorrean in _kabuki_ make-up? Priego pays his respect to his hosts and hypes his number. Hondo is glad and reminds him that he had his previous artists beheaded for not being entertaining enough. One pirate even produces a skull to mock the carnies with. Why would you _ever_ come back to this place?! the younglings, wearing garish costumes that do a good job at concealing their faces spot Ahsoka's lightsbaers on Hondo's belt just as he has her brought to watch the show. The younglings strat performing a rather elaborate act (to Ahsoka's consternation) involving a plank placed across a cylinder to lauch someone in the air when somebody else jumps on the opposite end. Petro invites Hondo to participates, somethign Priego and the twi'lek encourage for some reason. Ohnaka, who is clearly drunk ("I may not be as young as I once was, but I'm older!") willingly walks to the plank while Katooni pickpotes the sabers and Byph jumps from the top of Priego's ship onto the plank, catapulting Hondo through the air and sending him crashing into a pile of rubbish.

Katooni frees Ahsoka and gives her her weapons back. Hondo is still having fun... until his second-in-command spots the acrobats fleeing with the prisoner and understands what's happening. the pirates open fire and the Jedi parry with their lightsabers (hey, Zatt finished his offscreen!). The carnies run away in panic, the Jedi... commandeer a speeder and the pirates pursue on jetbikes. The only one left is a confused, drunk Hondo who end up hugging a beast of burden Priego forgot. After making sure they've shaken the pirates off, Ahsoka tells the kids they were very brave and, although she should pretend to be angry with them, she's learned from her master to not always obey orders. Points for honesty? PEtro calls Ganodi and tells her to prepare for take-off.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

this was a fun one. Rather light-hearted, despite a dark moment when Hondo talks about his clients. I mean, most children won't understand what he's getting at, but still, what the hell was that necessary for?

still, the carnies made for some interesting visual designs and the acrobatics were very nice. The space battle was clearly padding, but a bit of space combat is always welcome. Kinda wished they'd spared grievous yet another humiliation, though.


*Next up:* A Necessary Bound. No idea what it's going to be about. Since this show likes it's four-parters, I'm going to guees the conclusion of the younglings' trip and them being assigned masters?

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 5, Episode 9: A Necessary bond*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

We get back to the Jedi _en route_ to their ship with the pirates having managed to catch up on them and firing wildly. Petro calls Ganodi again, but she takes time to respond as she was busy reattaching Huyang's head to his shoulders (his arms are still missing, though). Ahsoka gives her their coordinates so she can rescue them. She hovers the ship over the speeders and lowers the boarding ramp. Ahsoka gets everyone to climb ontop of their vehicle while she uses a mask to get the steering wheel (stick?) stuck on "forward". The younglings start jumping aboard but a shot from the pirates makes the steering come loose and the speeder drifts away from the ship, forcing Petro to go back inside and drive the speeder. And by "jumping oaboard" I mean "Gunji and Byph are hanging for dear life". Aaaaaaand the speeders are headed for a cliff. R2 brings the ship back to the speeder but the pirates shoot the reactors and ahsoka orders him to evacuate as the ship crashes on the Jedi's speeder.

The weequays capture the Jedi and bring them back ti Hondo's fortress. Only to discover it overrun by Separatist forces! Grievous leads his troops right inside, with Hondo none the wiser as he's apparently in the middle of another party, drinking. Dude, it's like 7 in the morning, I think you have a problem. Hondo tries to behave as if Grievous is a guest. Mandatory "you can dispense with the pleasantries." The cyborg informs him he's claiming this planet for the glory of the Separatist Alliance. And Dooku wants a word. Dooku's holograms informs him that it's time to pay for holding him captive back in season 1... He's taking all his stuff and melting it down for military supplies! No, seriously, that's it. He's not going to kill him or torture him or anything. Who knew Sith Lords could be so forgiving?

The Jedi and their captors don't really know what to do. Ahsoka points out that Grievous's presence here means he's beaten Kenobi and they're now right in Separatist space, at least for the time being, so no luck for reinforcement. Hondo's second in command considers trading them to Grievous for safe passage out of the system but she says he'll just kill them instead, and yeah, fair. She guesses they have some other ships hidden somewhere which he confirms. Problem is, only Hondo knows where they are. How does that work? So, Tano offers a team-up to rescue Hondo and the pirate agrees.

R2 rolls in with the pirate tank, claiming to have captured it, distracting a few B1s, which allows the others to slip by. When the battle droid asks for his identification, R2 badmouths him, then apologizes when he gets angry and the B1 sends him away, not realizing he never answered the question. They get to Hondo's cell. They tell him they need his ships to escape. He congratulates Ahsoka on her diplomacy, but he doesn't believe they can fight their way to his "vault". Petro insists they can fight, and Huyang backs him up, stating that he's instructed Jedi for "over a thousand generations" and these are among the best he's ever seen. Dang, Huyang goes waaaaaaaaaay back. Hondo wants them to prove it to him, by showing him their swords. Which they do, except for Katooni as her is still unfinished. She doesn't understand why, as she's followed the step religiously. Huyang tells her she must trust in the force to binds the components together and Hondo insists she finishes it now. He says that watching a lightsaber be built is well worth the price of a ship, it's priceless. Huh, I like that, even an immoral pirate like Hondo has a sense of beauty and wonder.

she repeats the process and this time it works. Katooni, uses her new blue weapon to cut a giggling Hondo free before being congratulated by her classmate. Ahsoka ask Hondo why he put on such a show when he didn't have any other options. He says that they're about to try something really dangerous and he doesn't like taking children into danger. She points out that he was trying to murder those same children not 50 hours ago and he answers that "today is a new day! And lucky for you, today, I like children." I think Hondo needs therapy. They start freeing the rest of the gang. Outside, the droids are burning random stuff, overseen by Grievous until he's called by a droid warning him of an attack on the prison by miniature Jedi. Since he's here to wreck stuff anyway, grievous orders his tanks to fire on the building to collapse it on the Jedi. However, our... let's say heroes, come out of the building after two shots, so it's not collapsed, and cut their way through his army. Hondo on his lieutenants grab a few jetbikes while the Jedi climb aboard the speeder-tank they came in on. Except Katooni who's riding with Hondo. Not sure how the rest of the gang gets away.

Grievous give chase on his personal, and rather sick-looking jetbike. They drive through the same maze-like canyons Aurra sing tried to escape through back in season 2. The pirates take a sudden turn while the Jedi and the Seppies continue straight ahead. Hondo tells Katooni not to worry about it and uses a remote to open a fake rock-wall. Above which there's the wreck of a ship that looks suspiciously like a B-Wing or that ship Anakin flew in the pilot movie. Any idea what's up with that? The secret passage leads to a hangar with a varied collection of ships. Including the _Slave 1_ completely repaired and with a new paint-job. Okay, Did Hondo do all that by himself? How could he be the only one to know where that place is? They board the _Slave 1_, but Katooni says they can't leave the others behind like that. Hondo replies that she's wlecome to join his gang if she wants. she refuses and guilt-trips him by saying ahsoka trusted him. Did she, though?

Meanwhile Grievous jumped on the Jedi's speeder and is fighting one against six. Well, more like one against three-and-a-half, but still, impressive. Huyang tells R2 to "do something" to shake grievous off, sounding very much like the Tenth Doctor. the astromech rocks the speeder violently, making them fly out of the canyon and crash. That doesn't stop Grievous for long, and the child-killer starts figuratively foaming at the mouth (does he still have one of those?) at the thought of expending his lightsaber collection. At this point the _Slave 1_ shows up and Ahsoka tells the others to run for it. she duels Grievous for a while. He very clearly doesn't use his four arms as much as he could. There's even e point where he's grabbed her face and he throws her away instead of skewering her, what the hell? Still, she manages to distract him long enough for everyone to get onboard and she jumps in as well. grievous raises his blades at nothing at yells "You will never defeat grievous! Nevaaaah!" Dude, you're just embarrassing yourself. Ohnaka fires at him with the ship's turrets, which means he's not allowed to parry with his lightsabers and he falls to the ground. Befor ethey can finish him off, though, tanks show up and fires on them, so Hondo calls it a day. Grievous laughs as if he hadn't completely failed what he was there to do.

Back witht eh Republic fleet Ohnaka tries to charge Kenobi for the expanses encured during his "rescue operation" (he's pretty sure a few of his men died?). Kenobi asks him if that's how he calls hijacking a Jedi ship and Hondo, outraged by such ungratefulness leaves while Obi-Wan gives a bemused look to Cody. No! What are you doing Obi-Wan! He tried to murdered younglings, he damaged Huyang, he captured Ahsoka and tried to sell her into unspecified but very sinister ****, he destroyed one of the Order's ships! You can't just let him get way with this, why are you letting him get away with this? What is wrong with your brain chemistry!? Hondo gives a nod to Katooni as he leaves because they've bonded, I guess? Obi-Wan welcomes Ahsoka and Huyang, who got new arms, says this was the most eventful gathering since Master Yoda's. Of course the younglings immediately want to know, but Obi-Wan says the story will have to wait. He congratulates them on their achievement and calls them "young Jedi". They all draw their sabers and pint them together like the Knights of the round Table, proud to be truly part of the Order. And then Anakin murdered them all. The end.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

this was rather nice. I feel the chase with the pirates at the beginning dragged on a little and the rest of the episode felt rushed, so it probably could have been paced better. Maybe the re-capture should have happened at the end of the last episode?

Hondo is likable again in this one, but this really shows that they don't know how to handle his character. He feels like a different person entirely from the previous two episodes! Even the show knows this and tries to excuse it with that "today is another day" nonsense. Wild Card characters are fun, but they should stay coherent. If the character comes across as suffering from a borderline undiagnosed multiple identity disorder, then you're doing it wrong! Still, like I said, Hondo Ohnaka marveling at the creation of a lightsaber is a nice touch. He's not just a greedy ******* (although he's certainly that), he's laso got a bit of the romantic adventurer in him.

Grievous just keep failing. It's not even disappointing anymore. I'm more disappointed in Dooku really, that was some weaksauce revenge. And as we saw in the first episode of the season, Hondo ultimately gets to come back to this fortress, only a bit worse for it, with still dozens of pirates and three whole ships. The guy basically never faces consequences for his own actions.

We never got to see Huyang fight. I hope he shows up again, David Tennant is great.


*Next up:* Secret Weapons. The Separatist just never learn, do they?

----------


## Mechalich

> Hondo is likable again in this one, but this really shows that they don't know how to handle his character. He feels like a different person entirely from the previous two episodes! Even the show knows this and tries to excuse it with that "today is another day" nonsense. Wild Card characters are fun, but they should stay coherent. If the character comes across as suffering from a borderline undiagnosed multiple identity disorder, then you're doing it wrong! Still, like I said, Hondo Ohnaka marveling at the creation of a lightsaber is a nice touch. He's not just a greedy ******* (although he's certainly that), he's laso got a bit of the romantic adventurer in him.


I'd say Hondo's more manic-depressive than multiple personality. His emotional range really is all over the map. However, he is a Weequay, it's possible that they are more prone to rapid mood swings than humans. That said, I do think the writers let Hondo play to the camera too much. His mood has a bad tendency to shift along with the needs of the plot.

----------


## Keltest

I think Hondo mostly suffers from a lack of a clearly defined goal. He's a pirate/mercenary/trader/something, and what that thing is changes from episode to episode and even within the same episode. He takes defeat in good spirits, but its also never really clear if he needed to do it in the first place, so he kind of comes off as arbitrarily cruel a lot.

----------


## Mechalich

> I think Hondo mostly suffers from a lack of a clearly defined goal. He's a pirate/mercenary/trader/something, and what that thing is changes from episode to episode and even within the same episode. He takes defeat in good spirits, but its also never really clear if he needed to do it in the first place, so he kind of comes off as arbitrarily cruel a lot.


That's true. I think Hondo's supposed to be a sort of 'I'll take any job, so long as it pays' general purpose criminal, which helps explain his variety of interests. However, it's a bit tricky to justify why he needs to bother with highly eclectic jobs during the Clone Wars - which is absolutely a seller's market for any smuggler/criminal/gang leader. He could make a fortune just running guns or spice, no need to bother with risky weird stuff. 

I actually feel he works better in Rebels, when Imperial constraints mean that criminal enterprise feels the pinch and a low-level crook like Hondo has to scrounge for any opportunity.

----------


## Grim Portent

I always kind of assumed that Hondo is more than a little insane. He does outlandish and risky things because he gets bored with saner methods of making money, and is unpredictable and dangerous, but also generous enough that his crew stays more or less loyal.

That he never faces real consequences is irritating though. It's not like him being arrested by the Republic on one of the occasions the Jedi have him outnumbered would inherently prevent using him in the future.

----------


## Kornaki

The problem is nowhere in the rulebook does it say you can't capture a jedi and sell them into slavery.  So his hands are kind of tied on this one.


You can't capture a regular person but the rules for regular people don't apply to jedi, and hondo is the only one outside the order to figure out this loophole.

----------


## AMX

> Only to discover it overrun by Separatist forces! Grievous leads his troops right inside, with Hondo none the wiser as he's apparently in the middle of another party, drinking. Dude, it's like 7 in the morning, I think you have a problem.


I suppose substance abuse issues could explain his erratic behaviour.

Maybe Hondo is self-medicating in an attempt to deal with trauma resulting from his life as a pirate  :Small Confused:

----------


## McNum

> *Next up:* Secret Weapons. The Separatist just never learn, do they?


I just want to say "Good luck, we're all counting on you."

Not a fan of the next few episodes, but once you pass The Point of No Return, you're golden until the end.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I'd say Hondo's more manic-depressive than multiple personality. His emotional range really is all over the map. However, he is a Weequay, it's possible that they are more prone to rapid mood swings than humans.


Well, I was being hyperbolic, not actually trying to diagnose a fictionnal character.



> That said, I do think the writers let Hondo play to the camera too much. His mood has a bad tendency to shift along with the needs of the plot.


Like I said, he's very inconstant.



> I think Hondo mostly suffers from a lack of a clearly defined goal. He's a pirate/mercenary/trader/something, and what that thing is changes from episode to episode and even within the same episode. He takes defeat in good spirits, but its also never really clear if he needed to do it in the first place, so he kind of comes off as arbitrarily cruel a lot.


I mean, even if that's the idea the execution is just bad. Everytime he's the antagonist he's very evil and every time he's on the heroes' side he has some moral code. It's arbitray. And also, our heroes just tolerate his ****, for no reason.



> That's true. I think Hondo's supposed to be a sort of 'I'll take any job, so long as it pays' general purpose criminal, which helps explain his variety of interests.


But also he murders circus performers if they're not entertaining enough for him. 




> I actually feel he works better in Rebels, when Imperial constraints mean that criminal enterprise feels the pinch and a low-level crook like Hondo has to scrounge for any opportunity.


Meh, the Empire is much better for criminals than the Republic ever was. They have no interest in actually protecting the people and the leadership is corrupt and greedy. We see in _Solo_ that they work with criminal syndicates like Crimson Dawn and the Pykes. Hondo could make a fortune under the Empire as long as he doesn't try to steal from them.


Okay, it makes sense that he's broke.



> That he never faces real consequences is irritating though. It's not like him being arrested by the Republic on one of the occasions the Jedi have him outnumbered would inherently prevent using him in the future.


Frankly it makes the Jedi look callous and dumb and Dooku look weak.



> The problem is nowhere in the rulebook does it say you can't capture a jedi and sell them into slavery.  So his hands are kind of tied on this one.
> 
> 
> You can't capture a regular person but the rules for regular people don't apply to jedi, and hondo is the only one outside the order to figure out this loophole.


Wuh?



> I suppose substance abuse issues could explain his erratic behaviour.
> 
> Maybe Hondo is self-medicating in an attempt to deal with trauma resulting from his life as a pirate


I hate how much sense that makes. I really doubt that's what they're going for, but it would explain things. We better stop with this line of thinking before we ascribe his stunts to a subconscious death wish. Aaaaaand I just did.



> I just want to say "Good luck, we're all counting on you."
> 
> Not a fan of the next few episodes, but once you pass The Point of No Return, you're golden until the end.


Oh, great.

----------


## Grim Portent

Main thing about Hondo's behaviour is that he's just a major opportunist.

When he's in a position of power he's basically always an *******, even if he sometimes puts on a show of being friendly. When he's in a position of weakness, or in a more straightforward business arrangement that isn't worth breaking he gets all touchy feely to keep people from watching for him trying to cheat them the first chance gets. Really he should have had a story with some comeuppance at some point, but for some reason he never spends time in a Republic jail or a CIS work camp or anything.

He does wind up on the wrong side of the Empire, in no small part because he doesn't want to cooperate with them, he wants to make money by breaking their rules. He's practically compelled to betray people and break the law.


Thinking about it, I suspect he's working for Palpatine, or one of his agents, during this particuar story. He wants Kyber crystals, which are generally valuable anyway, but Palpatine is already getting CIS patsies to look at making more grandiose weapons that use them, and getting crystals can't be easy even with the CIS looting them from any lightsaber that Grievous doesn't get his hands on.

Palpatine also wants to abduct Force sensitives, either to use them as agents for the CIS or to turn them into Inquisitors and assassins. And maybe experiments, he liked his experiments.

On top of that, Palpatine is probably one of the few people who would know about the routes taken by the Jedi to and from Illum, and when they were going to be making the trip.

----------


## dancrilis

> They have no interest in actually protecting the people and the leadership is corrupt and greedy.


I don't know if this is fair, nothing seems to indicate that Palpatine, Vader, Tarkin, Thrawn or other top players are corrupt or greedy - we don't see them taking bribes or the like, within the confines of the jobs they do they seem to do them fairly honestly.

----------


## hamishspence

"Corrupting the legal system" is how Palpatine ensured Gunray never got convicted after TPM.

As the Naboo governor puts it in AOTC:

"It's outrageous. But after four trials in the Supreme Court, Nute Gunray is _still_ the Viceroy of the Trade Federation. I fear the Senate is powerless to resolve this crisis."

And "greed" is what drives him to rule the galaxy - he wants the whole galaxy to be "_owned by_ him" at least in the metaphorical sense.

----------


## Keltest

Theres also the whole thing where Palpatine instigated a revolution in order to get those most opposed to his corruption out of power and replaced with loyalists and/or arrested. That seems kind of corrupt.

----------


## hamishspence

And in the previous season, there's the whole "_Long have Sith empires been built on the backs of slaves"_ thing - he's ordering Dooku to open links with the Zygerrians. 

By Star Wars Rebels, slavery is portrayed as pretty normal in the Empire - in the very first episode, Hera poses as a slave trader delivering a slave, and is promptly let on board an imperial ship, and her group later travel to Kessel to rescue some Wookiee slaves from the Empire.

So it's gone from "no slavery in Republic bounds" to "some slavery in the Empire" thanks to Palpatine.


In the _Solo_ movie, Kessel seems to be where "Empire and criminal groups work together" - it's an Empire prison, but also a spice mine, where slaves mine spice that the Pyke Syndicate ship out and sell. 


There's hints at the Empire involvement with Kessel as early as ANH - Threepio predicting that the Empire will send _him and Artoo_ to the spice mines if they don't smash them to bits.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I don't know if this is fair, nothing seems to indicate that Palpatine, Vader, Tarkin, Thrawn or other top players are corrupt or greedy - we don't see them taking bribes or the like, within the confines of the jobs they do they seem to do them fairly honestly.


Vader spends all of Episode V plotting to usurp Sidious with Luke's help. Tarkin knew and abetted Sidious's efforts to subvert the Republic he'd sworn loyalty to into the monstrosity that is the Empire.
Thrawn *Spoiler: Thrawn, by Timothy Zahn*
Show

is a mole for the Chiss Ascendency.
As for evidence that Sidious is corrupt and greedy , I refer you to every single one of his appearances.

Furthermore it is strongly implied (and confirmed in interviews) that grand Vizier Mass Amedda (and likley all of Chancellor Palpatine's closest collaborators) knew he was running both sides of the Clone Wars and stifled Valorum's efforts to solve the Naboo Crisis.

But my point was more general, take any piece of media set under the Empire and see how many of the leading Imperials in them are in for personal advancement or to line their pockets. The Empire is pyramid-shaped organization where the only accountability is to those above you and power over those below is total. This inevitably leads to a dog-eat-dog mentality where everyone is constantly backstabbing one another and trying to gain an advantage any way they can. The fools who join because they mistakenly believe the Empire is a force for good either die, are disillusioned or turned into tools by the one who realize what game they are playing and are ruthlessly climbing their way to the top. The Empire doesn't exist to help the people or to enforce "order", that's the party line, the Empire exists to oppress as many people as possible, to turn them into the gears of a machine aimed at extracting the most wealth from the galaxy as possible and funneling it into the pockets of the Empire's elites either directly or through crime syndicates or megacorporations like Blastech or TaggeCo (notice the link with general Tagge from ANH and the _Vader_ comics). That's what fascist regimes _do_.

Edit: Also in _Legends_, the leader of Black Sun is one of Palpatine's closest advisors and in _Solo_ we see that the Empire relagated the management of KEssel, the one source of a strategically vital resource, to the Pyke's Syndicate and will rush to their aid guns ablaze in case of a slave revolt.

----------


## dancrilis

> "Corrupting the legal system" is how Palpatine ensured Gunray never got convicted after TPM.
> 
> As the Naboo governor puts it in AOTC:
> 
> "It's outrageous. But after four trials in the Supreme Court, Nute Gunray is _still_ the Viceroy of the Trade Federation. I fear the Senate is powerless to resolve this crisis."
> 
> And "greed" is what drives him to rule the galaxy - he wants the whole galaxy to be "_owned by_ him" at least in the metaphorical sense.


I will grant that the Republic was corrupt.




> The Empire is pyramid-shaped organization where the only accountability is to those above you and power over those below is total.


This is to an extent my view - it is difficult for such a system to be corrupt at the top, nobody was bribing the Emperor because there was nothing to bribe him with making him effectively incorruptable, people lower down could be corrupted 'help us and we will help you take out your boss and you can move up' but the leadership of the Empire were largely beyond reproach when it came to corrupt behaviour as the system didn't really allow anything to corrupt them with (Vader was a traitor in wanting to overthrow Palpatine but he wasn't really corrupt about it he wasn't offering governership for politicians backing him or anything like that, he wasn't offering or accepting bribes or anything like that).

----------


## Fyraltari

> This is to an extent my view - it is difficult for such a system to be corrupt at the top, nobody was bribing the Emperor because there was nothing to bribe him with making him effectively incorruptable, people lower down could be corrupted 'help us and we will help you take out your boss and you can move up' but the leadership of the Empire were largely beyond reproach when it came to corrupt behaviour as the system didn't really allow anything to corrupt them with (Vader was a traitor in wanting to overthrow Palpatine but he wasn't really corrupt about it he wasn't offering governership for politicians backing him or anything like that, he wasn't offering or accepting bribes or anything like that).


You seem to take a more narrow view of "leadership" than I, I am not talking about the dozen people at the top (and even then I notice you dropped any mention of Thrawn and Tarkin as well as Amedda) but of everyone starting with governor/moff and general/admiral and up. And also of "corruption" which, in the broad meaning, covers _any_ illegal behaviour from government officials whether bribery was involved or not. Meaning that yes, Vader plotting to overthrow Sidious was corruption.

My point is that the Empire incentive the scummiest behaviours. The leaders of the Empire donly care about their own advancement in ranks and their own enrichment and _will_ cut deals with organize crime, or even run it themselves either illegally or by having the practices (such as slavery) be officially co-opted by the Empire, whenever convenient.

----------


## Mechalich

> My point is that the Empire incentive the scummiest behaviours. The leaders of the Empire donly care about their own advancement in ranks and their own enrichment and _will_ cut deals with organize crime, or even run it themselves either illegally or by having the practices (such as slavery) be officially co-opted by the Empire, whenever convenient.


It's important to recognize that the Empire grows more corrupt over time, and by orders of magnitude. After all, Palpatine rose to power on an anti-corruption platform - the whole no-confidence vote that brings him to power is spurred by the widespread, and completely accurate, belief that the corrupt bureaucracy has shackled the galaxy and prevented the Senate from taking any decisive action on anything. And while war profiteering during the Clone Wars is common, as it is during any sort of major military buildup, actual crime declines and the power of criminal groups drops. TCW actually does show this directly, such as through the fall of Ziro the Hutt and in incidents that are yet to come.

The Empire absolutely smashes the extant criminal enterprises throughout the galaxy during its early years of consolidation. Hutt power is _crushed_ and they lose control of more territory than the CIS ever controlled. Likewise various portions of the lawless Outer Rim become less lawless, because Palpatine expands the frontier by thousands of light years and crushes countless tinpot dictators along the way. It's once this expansion stops and holdout resistance is crushed that the corruption sets in, because the state has no good metrics to measure accomplishment in a galaxy of totalitarian oppression and also because with no need to manipulate public opinion any more, Palpatine no longer needs to care. Therefore autocracy shifts rapidly to kleptocracy, and criminal organizations resurface and reorganize to cater to the new elite (which in some places, such as the Core Worlds, is mostly the same as the old elite, but in the Outer Rim its quite different). 




> The Empire doesn't exist to help the people or to enforce "order", that's the party line, the Empire exists to oppress as many people as possible, to turn them into the gears of a machine aimed at extracting the most wealth from the galaxy as possible and funneling it into the pockets of the Empire's elites either directly or through crime syndicates or megacorporations like Blastech or TaggeCo (notice the link with general Tagge from ANH and the Vader comics). That's what fascist regimes do.


That's what authoritarian regimes _without ideological goals_ do. The elite in a totalitarian regime default to self-enrichment in the absence of any other directive and in the absence of internal policing to prevent such practices. Both of these things were true of the Empire. Palpatine had no ideological goals for the state. He created the Empire as a vehicle to eliminate security threats to his person and to supply the resources he needed for pet projects, he has no vision for the galaxy whatsoever. Instead he, like many Sith rulers before him, neglects the maintenance of his own Empire in order to pursue a dark side directed apotheosis. _Rebels_ is actually a very good source on this point. 

Now there are people in the Empire who did have an ideology and who believed that rule through overwhelming force and the production of unity through fear actually was the best thing for the galaxy. Tarkin was such a person. So was Thrawn (Thrawn could take or leave the fear, but he absolutely believed in unity supplied through overwhelming force). So were many of the low-level officers and rank-and-file soldiers, which is why so many of them eventually defected.

----------


## dancrilis

> You seem to take a more narrow view of "leadership" than I, I am not talking about the dozen people at the top


So when you say 'the leadership is corrupt' you mean 'the middle management is corrupt' which is likely a fair statement.




> (and even then I notice you dropped any mention of Thrawn and Tarkin as well as Amedda)


I made a specific mention of Vader and used brackets for it to highlight i.e that I could see the confusion about his role in trying to overthrow Palpatine - I see no reason why anyone would think think Tarkin was corrupt, I am sure people have their reasons but the idea seems odd to me.




> And also of "corruption" which, in the broad meaning, covers _any_ illegal behaviour from government officials whether bribery was involved or not.


I would say that corruption is an illegal (mis)use of office - using authority to illegally  (i.e not part of a wider operation) help rebels would likely be corrupt for example.




> Meaning that yes, Vader plotting to overthrow Sidious was corruption.


Vader was a religious appointee and his religion mandated that he seek to overthrow Sidious, had he succeeded I very much doubt that a prosecutor would have (or should have) taken a case against him - it is not an abuse of authority to do the job you were hired to do.

----------


## hamishspence

> I see no reason why anyone would think think Tarkin was corrupt, I am sure people have their reasons but the idea seems odd to me.


Later this season:

*Spoiler*
Show

He's actively participating in a blatant_ railroading_ of Ahsoka - the court is basically a kangaroo court. That puts him in the "corrupt lawyer" class.


And in Rogue One

*Spoiler*
Show

it's rather clear that his firing on Scarif has little to do with "prevent the Rebels from getting the Death Star Plans" and much to do with "eliminating a rival" (Krennic) 

That's _another_ form of corruption. 



There's _lots_ of ways of being corrupt that _don't_ involve taking bribes.

----------


## dancrilis

> Later this season:


Is still before the Empire.




> That's _another_ form of corruption.


Can you define corruption?




> There's _lots_ of ways of being corrupt that _don't_ involve taking bribes.


I did define corruption above without referring to bribes and provided a non-bribe example: 



> I would say that corruption is an illegal (mis)use of office - using authority to illegally (i.e not part of a wider operation) help rebels would likely be corrupt for example.

----------


## Keltest

Defining corruption as being based on illegality inherently precludes the top officials in an autocracy who make the laws from being corrupt though, since they can just make things legal and boom, now its not corrupt even though its transparently exploiting the government for their own benefit.

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## hamishspence

> Is still before the Empire.


Corruption doesn't go away just because of a name change. Palpatine and Tarkin were corrupt _Republic_ officials - when the government received a change, they became corrupt _Imperial_ officials - Emperor and Governor - abusing their power for their own gratification.

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## dancrilis

> Defining corruption as being based on illegality inherently precludes the top officials in an autocracy who make the laws from being corrupt though, since they can just make things legal and boom, now its not corrupt even though its transparently exploiting the government for their own benefit.


This is correct.




> Corruption doesn't go away just because of a name change. Palpatine and Tarkin were corrupt _Republic_ officials - when the government received a change, they became corrupt _Imperial_ officials - Emperor and Governor - abusing their power for their own gratification.


Princess Leia was a corrupt Imperial Senator who used her office to try and undermine the Empire she was in theory supposed to be serving (and her corruption may very well have led to the deaths of the individuals she was supposed to be serving) - but she was not (as far as I am aware) a corrupt representative of the New Republic.

----------


## Keltest

> This is correct.
> 
> 
> 
> Princess Leia was a corrupt Imperial Senator who used her office to try and undermine the Empire she was in theory supposed to be serving (and her corruption may very well have led to the deaths of the individuals she was supposed to be serving) - but she was not (as far as I am aware) a corrupt representative of the New Republic.


Well, in short, I dont believe your definition of corruption is correct. It has nothing to do with the legality of one's actions, but rather the abuse of power. Leia was working to protect the interests of the people she governed. Palpatine and Tarquin were looking to take advantage of and misrule the people they governed. Hence they are corrupt and Leia is not.

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## Peelee

> This is correct.


This is a terrible definition of corruption that only seeks to see what is legal rather than what is moral.

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## Jasdoif

> Defining corruption as being based on illegality inherently precludes the top officials in an autocracy who make the laws from being corrupt though, since they can just make things legal and boom, now its not corrupt even though its transparently exploiting the government for their own benefit.


You'd have to go beyond "transparently" to "explicitly" for that to stop being corruption....Of course that assumes we're only talking about political corruption, and not considering ethical corruption.


EDIT: Almost forgot!




> Originally Posted by McNum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Fyraltari
> ...


That arc was certainly the weakest of the season, but the episodes weren't *that* bad...okay _Secret Weapons_ itself was; but the _A Sunny Day in the Void_ and _Missing in Action_ were surprisingly good.  (_Point of No Return_ starts declining in quality as the episode goes on, if I recall correctly....)

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## dancrilis

> This is a terrible definition of corruption that only seeks to see what is legal rather than what is moral.


Being morally corrupt is difficult to quantify (being corrupt in the workplace can also be difficult to quantify, but I would say much easier) - if you move matters to moral corruption then anyone can do anything and whether they are corrupt or not would be in the eyes of the beholder.

An enforcer of the state taking a sack of cash and looking the other way letting a criminal go would in my mind be corruption (in most cases - perhaps the system allows them to do so in which case not corrupt).
An enforcer of the state looking the other way and let a criminal because the criminal is a family member would in my mind be corruption (in most cases - perhaps the system allows them to do so in which case not corrupt).

Both or either of those might be moral, immoral or amoral subject to other circumstances.

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## Peelee

> Being morally corrupt is difficult to quantify


No, it's pretty easy. Abusing your power for personal gain. Bam, done. Quantified. Supreme Chancellor Palatine declares himself emperor? Abused his power for personal gain. Sober Bob at a frat party takes advantage of drunk Betty? Abused his power for personal gain. 

Pretty cut and dry there. And hey, no need to worry about whether something is legal or illegal, cause it doesn't matter! Handy!

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## dancrilis

> No, it's pretty easy. Abusing your power for personal gain. Bam, done. Quantified. Supreme Chancellor Palatine declares himself emperor? Abused his power for personal gain.


If he had then ran a good empire without cruelty, war or want would you still brand him as corrupt for toppling the previous corrupt system?

He would still have gained either way.

Also can you give a difference between 'abusing your power for personal gain' and 'utilising your power for personal gain'.

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## Peelee

> If he had then ran a good empire without cruelty, war or want would you still brand him as corrupt for toppling the previous corrupt system?


Doesn't sound like that would be abusing his power. As is, he created planet-destroying mobile starbases to solidify his power, dissolved the Imperial Senate to solidify his power, had a personal assistant outside of both the legal system, political system, and military system able to command people in all of those to attend to his personal tasks and solidify his power, etc etc.

Yes, I defer to your assertion that if things were different, they wouldn't be the same, but I fail to see how that has any relevance whatsoever to the actual topic and am singularly disinterested in playing the "what if" game with you.

----------


## Keltest

> If he had then ran a good empire without cruelty, war or want would you still brand him as corrupt for toppling the previous corrupt system?
> 
> He would still have gained either way.
> 
> Also can you give a difference between 'abusing your power for personal gain' and 'utilising your power for personal gain'.


Probably. He instigated a galaxy-wide war specifically to put himself in power, played both sides against the middle and betrayed everybody on all sides to their detriment. His prior actions dont go away just because he happens to be a good administrator.

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## dancrilis

> Doesn't sound like that would be abusing his power.


So because you equate moral corruption with abuse therefore not corrupt.




> Probably. He instigated a galaxy-wide war specifically to put himself in power, played both sides against the middle and betrayed everybody on all sides to their detriment. His prior actions dont go away just because he happens to be a good administrator.


So because you equate moral corruption differently therefore corrupt.

------------

As such I default back to my earlier take: If you move matters to moral corruption then anyone can do anything and whether they are corrupt or not would be in the eyes of the beholder.

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## Jasdoif

> Also can you give a difference between 'abusing your power for personal gain' and 'utilising your power for personal gain'.


_Utilizing your power for personal gain_: Agreeing to let a committee of senators vote to determine how to allocate a military budget, with a stipulation that a minimum percentage be assigned to your personal honor guard.

_Abusing your power for personal gain_: Removing individual senators from said committee who support proposals with assignment to your personal honor guard less than the maximum amongst the proposals, by means unrelated to the senatorial proceedings.

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## Peelee

> So because you equate moral corruption with abuse therefore not corrupt.


Define it however you want, dude, I'm not going to agree.

----------


## dancrilis

> Define it however you want, dude, I'm not going to agree.


I am just using your defination:




> Originally Posted by dancrilis
> 
> 
> Being morally corrupt is difficult to quantify
> 
> 
> No, it's pretty easy. Abusing your power for personal gain. Bam, done.

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## Keltest

> I am just using your defination:


I'm going to be frank, I literally cannot understand what point youre trying to make. Your sentences did not make any sense.

----------


## Fyraltari

> EDIT: Almost forgot!
> 
> That arc was certainly the weakest of the season, but the episodes weren't *that* bad...okay _Secret Weapons_ itself was; but the _A Sunny Day in the Void_ and _Missing in Action_ were surprisingly good.  (_Point of No Return_ starts declining in quality as the episode goes on, if I recall correctly....)


Well, that's good to hear because that episode gave off big Season One energy.



> If he had then ran a good empire without cruelty, war or want would you still brand him as corrupt for toppling the previous corrupt system?


Yes, I would. "Fixing" a corrupt system by removing checks and balances to your personal authority doesn't fix jack. An autocratic pyramid like the Empire cannot work as it pushes its constituent to lie and compete with each other by any mean possible. Decay is inevitable regardless of the person at the top (it's just slower of they're trying to be a good and just ruler). The whole set-up is inherently oppressive and exploitative.

The only way this theoretical Palpatine isn't corrupt is if he'd used his _coup d'état_ as an emergency measure and transistionned to a better system than the Old Republic, more democratic, with more checks on personnal powers of office and less power to megacorporations and crime syndicate. If he'd used his power in service of the common good and then made himself accountable again or left politics, Cincinnatus-style, then he wouldn't have been corrupt but a revolutionnary.

Like Leia.

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## dancrilis

> I'm going to be frank, I literally cannot understand what point youre trying to make. Your sentences did not make any sense.


Essentially Peelee decided to being a moral element into a discussion on corruption (which at the time I viewed as relating to misuse of office in a legal context), I said that moral elements were difficult to nail down, they disagreed and indicated it was simple and gave a defination, I asked a question on this simplicity and Peelee and yourself answered it differently - one indicating that it did not seem to be corruption and one indicating that it seemed to be corruption.

This I took to prove my point relating to moral elements being difficult to nail down.

Peelee then indicated that the defination that I applied to them was my defination - and I clarified that it was their defination.

Or such is my view of the above number of post.


Frankly I find conversation on moral corruption to be largely meaningless as people can define things very differently - so I am very unsure is to if there is any actual point to be made here other then that speaking on moral corruption is unlikely to be productive.

If I have you both correct you hold that systems can be inherently corrupt (meaning opposed to what you hold to be good) and that those who are at the top of corrupt systems are therefore corrupt by defination where those who undermine them are not, and as you hold The Empire as a corrupt system you hold Palpatine as corrupt and Leia is not - that is reading _a lot_ between the lines and I could be reading you both very wrong.

I would hold that systems are merely systems and while they may be brutal and horrific they cannot be inherently corrupt, that requires someone to be co-opting them (i.e corrupting them) and as such Palpatine is not corrupt where Leia is - in the context of the Empire.

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## Peelee

I disagreed with you because I could not understand what you were saying and thought you were basing my calls on your definition. Also, I misspoke in response to your hypothetical. I dismissed it as a worthless thought exercise I had no desire to engage in, but if you want an answer with any amount of thought I out into it, then yeah, it's still corrupt because he engineered a war that killed untold numbers of people solely to make a power grab, which is flagrantly an abuse of the power he had.

If you choose to not see it that way, feel free, but that only exemplifies why I do not think there is meaningful discussion to be had and why I choose to disengage when you play the "what if" game. I do not care about how it would be if Palps had been born in a black hole and lived on candy and rainbows and got an empire handed to him by a space unicorn and enacted a law of "be excellent to each other" because that's not what happened in the story. In the story, he was blatantly corrupt, and I do not give two whits about whether it was "legal".

----------


## Aeson

I would add that, even were it the case that Palpatine had taken power in some entirely legal, bloodless, and morally-impeccable way and then ruled the galaxy fairly and ably for the betterment of the people, he would still, as the architect of the 'new' system, bear a large degree of responsibility for what comes after him - and that system has quite a bit riding on the character, ability, and interest of the person at the top, with no apparent safeguards to fall back on should that person be corrupt, incompetent, disinterested, or even merely a poor judge of character, any one of which could more or less instantly erase whatever good our hypothetical Good King Palpatine may have done by usurping the Republic.

Also, coups set a rather dangerous precedent - sure, Good King Palpatine might be a well-intentioned and highly-competent politician who just wants to reform the system and make things better for everyone in the galaxy, but if Good King Palpatine stages a coup and succeeds (or possibly even if he fails) then the lesson that many other, likely less scrupulous, characters would draw from that is that coups work, or at least have a reasonable shot at success, and there's no guarantee that _their_ coups, successful or not, and the state's reaction to them will be even remotely beneficial for the body politic. Some doors are very hard to close once they're open and as such should probably remain shut unless there is a very, very good reason to pass through them.

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## Mechalich

> If you choose to not see it that way, feel free, but that only exemplifies why I do not think there is meaningful discussion to be had and why I choose to disengage when you play the "what if" game. I do not care about how it would be if Palps had been born in a black hole and lived on candy and rainbows and got an empire handed to him by a space unicorn and enacted a law of "be excellent to each other" because that's not what happened in the story. In the story, he was blatantly corrupt, and I do not give two whits about whether it was "legal".


The nominal legality of Palpatine's overthrow of the Republic is important because it establishes that Palpatine is not solely responsible for that fall. He had a supermajority of support in the Senate, in the Courts, in the Military, and even in public opinion, and while some of that was due to nefarious behind-the-scenes scheming a lot of it was pure democratic politics. Palpatine was the villain, yes, but the Republic failed. These are not mutually exclusive. The line: "So this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause." is exceedingly important to the overall framework of the Prequels and the Clone Wars. 




> I would add that, even were it the case that Palpatine had taken power in some entirely legal, bloodless, and morally-impeccable way and then ruled the galaxy fairly and ably for the betterment of the people, he would still, as the architect of the 'new' system, bear a large degree of responsibility for what comes after him - and that system has quite a bit riding on the character, ability, and interest of the person at the top, with no apparent safeguards to fall back on should that person be corrupt, incompetent, disinterested, or even merely a poor judge of character, any one of which could more or less instantly erase whatever good our hypothetical Good King Palpatine may have done by usurping the Republic.


Autocracy, compared to democracy, is both a more powerful form of government and significantly more efficient in deploying said power. The counterpoint is that it is extremely high risk and, as you note, tends to be unstable over the long term (though in a fantasy scenario we do have to consider the possibility of nigh-immortal god-kings). 

The Old Republic was too weak to effectively govern the galaxy, the Empire far too strong (coup attempts did happen, and the imperial war machine relied on an unsustainable tax burden to function, plus other problems). Exactly what sort of system would work is unknown. Legends spent the later half of its existence pondering the issue, but the need to constantly imperil the galaxy prevented them from putting forward a competent government of any kind. Disney reinstated the Old Republic only to have it collapse on itself immediately. 

How do you run something this big? Is a central question of Star Wars and it is probably - possibly deliberately, the franchise is built around warfare after all - unanswerable.

----------


## Peelee

> The nominal legality of Palpatine's overthrow of the Republic is


Irrelevant, because again, I do not consider "legality" to be a metric in determining corruption. You may. You are free to. I will not accept this and will not engage with it because I think it is a poor metric that allows rampant corruption to run amok under the guise of legality.

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## Jasdoif

As a general rule, amorality begets immorality when people get involved; and there's no point to a government without people being involved.  Defining a role as able to ignore its own accountability is far more appealing to the sorts of people who want to ignore their own accountability than it is to anyone else; and those are the same sorts of people who will go to the greatest lengths to get into it.

Talking about the structure/design of system of laws in isolation from the people they'll be applied to is fine; but overlooking that they eventually _will_ be applied to people, all but guarantees an eventual failure to work as intended.






> ...lived on candy and rainbows and got an empire handed to him by a space unicorn...because that's not what happened in the story.


Aww.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 5, Episode 10: Secret Weapons*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Title card's blue. Why's the title card blue? What is this, _The Rise of Skywalker_?

Anyway, the Republic has intercepted a message from Grievous to... err... someone? It's heavily encrypted, however, so they can't tell what the message is. They know it's from Grievous because they can see him in the message. I guess the hologram isn't as encrypted as the sound? Weird. They suspect it's about a major offensive, so the Jedi mount a commando mission to get hold of a Separatist encryption chip. And who is going on the mission? A bunch of astromechs (including R2) who are being briefed by a few Jedi, namely Windu, Kenobi, Skywalker, Secura, Sinobe and a dude with a 1.50-meter-high fin on his head. They have to get onboard a specific Separatist dreadnought to steal the decryption key (it looks like an actual key on a chip, love it). And here comes, late, the last member of the team, not an astromech but a DUM-serie droid (those with a conical head that can fold and unfold like in Watto's shop) and our protagonist of the day: WAC-47. he bumbles his way to his comrades and tries to act excited. Then windu says some of them may not make it back while looking directly at him. Cold, Windu, cold. This team is the titular "secret weapons", not sure that makes sense, but whatever. Windu then introduces their commanding officer for this mission (shouldn't he be the one doing the briefing?), one of the Republic's strategic command's finest minds and a veteran of the (Second, I assume) Battle of Geonosis, colonel Meebur Gascon! And he's twenty-centimeter tall. The little frog-man then shows a map of the dreadnought, explains they have to bypass security in two places, distract some superdroids, break a code, avoid "swarm-mines" get the key and get back in time for him to be promoted to brigadier-general. He ignores WAC trying to ak a question and marches them out. WAC then hit the door leaving.

Cut to a droid assembly line where Gascon introduces them to Dr. Gubak, a Parwan. WAC interrputs to point out that he's not an astromech, as the colonel addressed them all as such previously, calling Gascon a corporal in doing so. The colonel then goes back to explaining the good doctor is going to give each of them a tactical upgrade for the mission. Except for WAC, who Gascon calls "cyclop" who is sent to prepare their shuttle. Gubak gives R2 more powerful rocket boosters than can keep him flying for longer periods of time. Not I have ever seen him be forced to land. The next one, QT-KT, gets a remote-controlled, "extremely powerful" magnet that can attract anything metallic in a seven-meter radius (not that powerful, then. Also I wonder how he can control the drone with a magnet like that attached to it). U9-C4 gets a laser-cutter that can cut through almost anything but has quite the recoil. Which U9 demonstrates by veing lauched across the room. recoil on a laser, sure. The last one, M5-BC doesn't get anything new, they're taking his memory banks out to make room for the colonel's mobile command center. Gascon is indifferent to this lobotomy, since M5 is only a droid and Gubak points out he won't remember anyway.

The team gets aboard the shuttle and WAC (who still can't get the colonel's rank right) asks why he isn't getting upgraded. Because he's _just_ the pilot. WAC resolves to prove otherwise. The shuttle approaches the Separatist's fleet and Gascon comes in the cockpit telling WAC to notify him once they're in radio range of the dreadnought, he's got a plan to get their attention. But WAC already put a plan of his own into motion and put them in a collision course with the ship. Yeah, that'll get their attention. They're immediately caught in a tractor beam and brought to a hangar. B1s boards and dismiss the _droids_ aboard while looking for intruders (what do they think they are, gundarks?). The team is taken in for interrogation (the colonel hiding inside M5). Once in a corridor, R2 takes out a B1 and WAC tells the second one he's the leader of the team, distracting him long enough for QT to zap him. They hide the "corpses" and Gascon gives them directions to C-deck (where the decryption module is) and has WAC lead the way, so he can tell anyone who asks he's taking the astromechs to maintenance. WAC calls him "captain".

Once there, the colonel orders C4 to cut the main power-line to temporarily shut it off. He does so despite forgetting to brace for his recoil. On the bridge, a B1 informs the local tactical droid of the loss of power, but since it came back quickly, they don't do anything. However this means the security is now in "manual" override, but someone still has to distracts the B2s up ahead. WAC excitedly volunteers, still calling Gascon a corporal. He walks to the two superdroids and claims to have been sent by Grievous to test security. The believe him, in a frankly average display of separatist competence, and he leads them into a closet, and tells them they'll be safe there while he creates a power surge as part of his test. M5 then attempts to open the comm-vault's doors but is shocked by a booby-trap, sending the colonel flying out. He claims to not be responsible for M5 "terminating" himself since he didn't order him to attack the access panel. He still needs someone to open it, and quickly. He refuses to do it himself, saying he isn't trained for "crisis maneuvers". WAC brings up the battle of Geonosis. Gascon admists he didn't technically _fight_ in that battle. He's a military analyst. A map-reader as WAC puts it. He eventually admits that the reason he was chosen for this mission was mostly his size (I wonder how many of his species are in the GAR). While he's busy ranting that that doesn't change anything, he's still their commanding officer, R2 opens the door.

Gascon jumps ontop of U9, recaps the next part of the plan (take out the mines and steal the key) and asks if anyone has any questions. Mine would be how U9 knows to change the hologram to what he's going to talk about just before he does so. WAC's only slightly more relevant question is whether he's _actually_ been in any battles. gascon says he hasn't, but if WAC wants to fid out what he's made of, they can fight there and then, and be captured an executed by the seppies or they can carry out the mission and be heroes. Good comeback. WAC agrees, on the condition that he stops calling them derisive nicknames like "cyclops" or "flat-top". He accepts... until one of them screws up again. A B1 informs the tactical droid of another disturbance on C-deck (M5 being fried, I suppose) and the tactical decides to investigate himself.

QT uses his magnet to gather the flying mines and the team proceeds, but just as R2 was flying towards the module (which is plugged in (I think?) up in the air, not very convenient to access), the tactical droid and a mixed squad of B1s and B2s barge in. However, R2 connects to the room's artificial gravity controls and turns it off. Everybody immediately floats up. U9-C4 uses his laser to take out a few droids. Hey, what about the recoil! Recoil still exists when there's no gravity, he's free-floating he should have been launched at high speed! QT takes out a few more by throwing the swarm-mines at them. R2's boosters allow him to fly up to the decryption key, but the tactical droid catch him by the ankle... -thingie. Gascon jumps from a wall to the tactical, forcing him to let go of R2 but getting dangerously close to his gun. WAC swims (in mid-air, what the ****?) to the tactical and beats him up with his own severed leg. The seppie retaliates, but the chaos allows R2 to grab the key. The tactical grabs R2 again, so WAC swims (again, swimming in the air) to the gravity controls and turns it on. Everybody falls down but r2 who uses his suction cup? magnet? to grab the ceiling and then falls down right on the tactical, taking him out. The team leaves, but the tactical's still functionning head rings an intruder alert.

The droids stop before M5-BC's "corpse" and R2 insists they take him with them. Gascon agrees and says they can repare him on the shuttle. They make their way to the shuttle, with b1s ignoring them as just astromechs. Gascon says the funny thing about droids is that they don't expect other droids to betray them, the team laughs. I don't think that was a compliment, guys. They fly out of the dreadnought without issue (what about the tractor beam?) The colonel auto-congratulates and say the droids might make decent soldiers. WAC calls him colonel.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

The English pronunciation of colonel as "kernel" is killing me. Still, I'm glad the frog called Gascon doesn't have an outrageous accent.

This was a meh episode. Not too shabby, but big season 1 vibes. The slapstick was vaguely tolerable but still a bit grating as was the general humor around WAC (great name, isn't it).

Mostly, I think it's funny that R2's already OP enough that they couldn't think of any actual upgrade for him.

You know, everything about the galaxy Far Far Away is designed with creatures of about human height and physiology in mind. I have to wonder how tiring it was for Gascon to navigate the Jedi Temple.


Next up: *A Sunny Day in the Void*.

----------


## Keltest

The title card was blue because this is part of a real world event promoting r2 and the droid team. Expevt more of the same this arc.

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## Fyraltari

> The title card was blue because this is part of a real world event promoting r2 and the droid team. Expevt more of the same this arc.


Oh, goodie.

----------


## Keltest

Imo this arc really brings a problem with the show to the forefront and that is that neither side scrutinizes their droids at all, even though both sides have used turncoat droids before. You would think that when one side uses droids as their main fighting force, the Republic in particular would take a little bit more care about which droids they let into things like major power plants, or that the Separatists might have some stronger cybersecurity given the number of times their officers brains have been stolen and hacked

----------


## McNum

> Imo this arc really brings a problem with the show to the forefront and that is that neither side scrutinizes their droids at all, even though both sides have used turncoat droids before. You would think that when one side uses droids as their main fighting force, the Republic in particular would take a little bit more care about which droids they let into things like major power plants, or that the Separatists might have some stronger cybersecurity given the number of times their officers brains have been stolen and hacked


Yeah, if you want to spy on the Empire, you just need a handful of compromised mouse droids and you're golden. It's a common theme of Star Wars that the bad guys ignore droids and that coming back to bite them.

This is actually covered in a few episodes of Rebels, thanks to C1-10P being a little too good at it, so the Empire finally tries something to stop droid infiltrations. Of course, Chopper is the kind of droid who understands rubber hose cyberattacks (beat the guy with a rubber hose until he tells you the password) so it goes as well as it could. Still, points for trying.

But the whole not understanding enemy droids is a common flaw of, well, everyone in Star Wars. Only the heroes really care about droids, and that's how you identify the heroes.

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## Mechalich

> But the whole not understanding enemy droids is a common flaw of, well, everyone in Star Wars. Only the heroes really care about droids, and that's how you identify the heroes.


Droids are one of the elements of Star Wars that the setting is, broadly, simply not willing to fully grapple with the implications of their existence - morally, economically, legally, psychologically, etc. - and as a result they are deliberately deemphasized most of the time. So when they do get featured, it feels weird. Star Wars generally works better if no one thinks about droids too hard.

----------


## Fyraltari

I saw the trailer for _Tales of the Jedi_.

A) A Dooku and Qui-Gon story? Neat. Pretty sure they'll make Dooku already villainous, though.
B) They really can't let go of the late Old Republic/Empire era, can't they?
C) "By the creators of _The Clone Wars_ and _Bad Batch_" wow, _Rebels_ and _Resistance_ get no respect.

----------


## Fyraltari

Alright, could you tell I've been putting off doing this one?

*Season 5, Episode 11: A sunny day in the void*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Our motley crew is on its way back to Coruscant and also repairing BZ, who fell on the field last time. Gascon wants them to do the repairs fast because they must get the encryption module to the Republic as soon as possible. Don't really see how BZ's repairs have any effect on that, but whatever. Also, if they're in a rush, why go to Coruscant and not meet up with one of the fleets? There's bound to be one closer to ennemy territory than the capital, and since you have the encryption key, you shouldn't need rare equipment to translate the message you've intercepted. Anyway, WAC leaves the cockpit to tell them there are comets flying right at them (in hyperspace!?) maing a bad "good news, bad news" joke. Also the presence of comets turn hyperspace red for some reason, even the big space monster in _Solo_ couldn't pull that one off.

Gascon takes them out of hyperspace and it turns out that there is a seemingly nigh-infinite amount of comets in all directions very packed together. They hit a few, damaging the ship. The astromechs get the auxiliary power back on, but the engines are busted until the 'mechs get them temporarily back, which just allows the shuttle to crash into more comets. One mech is thrown off the ship and the others form a line of grappling one another to get him back on. This is a pretty clear example of there being air resistance in space in _Star Wars_, but I guess that's consistent with the ships only moving when their reactors are ablaze. Ultimately WAC decides to crash-land on a conveniently nearby planet without knowing anything about it and they make planetfall on what appears ti be a plain made of ice (or maybe solid salt?).

Gascon blames the droids for this and consults the database on this place "Name: Abathon. Information on planet: Void." Well, I guess "Mostly harmless" doesn't seem so bad, now. The colonel wants to stay put in the wreck but R2 leaves in the desert babbling on having to finish the mission, ANH style. And he's got the encryption module. The droids follow him and eventually Gascon too, once WAC says maybe they'll give HIM a medal for bringing the key back when Gascon didn't. Some time later, Gascon complains about being lost in the desert when he was _this_ close to completing his first mission. WAC tries to cheer him up by pointing out how sunny it is, but Gascon doesn't see any sun. Indeed the whole sky appears to be orange, which makes me wonder about the atmosphere and what Gascon is breathing right now. This however, makes him wonder how they know where they're going. R2 says he's set his navigation to straight, which alarms the colonel. I don't really see why, they don't know where they are, so any direction is as good as any, and the biggest risk in walking without bearings is too accidentally go in circles, so this should be (somewhat) reassuring.

Gascon decides they can't rely on a droid's programming and will instead use his training. According to him, droids not having any training is his weakness. WAC prods him a bit until he admits that his training was drilled into him by his superiors, which WAC considers the same as being programmed. Gascon takes offense at being compared to droids. And he notices that they haven't left any tracks to use to go back to the ship like he wants (couldn't R2 just do a 180° on the bearing he was following?) WAC noticed earlier but didn't think it was important since they wouldn't go backward. Gascon insists he, as just a pilot, leaves the thinking to him, the commanding officer. WAC decides this is an opportune moment to point out his programming keeps him focused on the mission and not things like "his health", so when Gascon dies, he should be the new leader. This is the last straw for the colonel who rants that WAC is killing him and all he wants at this point is to be left to die with some dignity. Great, I am watching a frogman's mental breakdown. Add that to the list of things I didn't think I'd ever write or say.

Anyway, R2 spots a wreck in the distance. Gascon is overjoyed to be back until it becomes clear it's a completely different ship with a skeleton and a few ruined astromechs inside, which the droids take as proof that one shouldn't stay in the ship. Gascon climbs to the top of the wreckage, which WAC takes as a sign of him being suicidal and votes for himself as new leader, insisting the others can't vote for R2, since as a mech he can't lead the mission. Hilarious. Of course, Gascon was just trying to spot something they could head to, and start imploring the skies to give him a sign*. The droids have no idea who he's talking to. I guess the Church of the Maker hasn't converted them yet. I wonder if 3PO goes knocking on doors when he has time. Gascon does spot a village though and runs toward it. followed by the team.

However, he's the only one who can see the outpost and it fades away as he reaches it. This isn't how mirages work by the way, they're not hallucinations but purely physical illusions, caused by heated air on the ground refracting light, making you see an image of the clear blue sky on the ground far away, looking regrettably like body of water. Gascon finds something on the ground though. The empty canteen he discarded earlier. He loses it and start dancing and laughing maniacally. WAC agrees with the others they can't trust his training any longer, but he refuses to trust them unless they pick him as new leader. The astromechs just leave, calling him "just a pilot".

Alon with Gascon, WAC asks if he has any idea. Gascon's current working theory is that he died in the crash and is now in Limbo*. "Yeah, I should have gone with the mechs." Gascon thinks life has no answer but death, and hope is an illusion. WAC says giving up isn't in his programming and he's surprised that it is in Gascon's. the colonel realizes that he's been trained to always find a rational solution, but there none to this void, so he needs to change his approach and his programming-training. Reinvigorated, he says WAC _is_ more than just a pilot. WAC's joy is cut short by a sudden stampede of white-and-orange featherless and wingless ostruches? Gascon says that this is their way out: rather than follow his training or WAC's programming, they should follow the animals' instinct. They each grab hold of a beast and let themselves be carried with surprisingly little protestations I mean, that's a pretty *rational* solution if you ask me, but whatever.

Soon enough, Gascon spots a town again, and this time WAC can see it too. The town is dug inside the salt (?) near a lake, which is of course, the real point of interest for the birds. As they approach, Gascon and WAC notice the mechs already exploring the place. Gascon orders corporal WAC to gather the squad while he goes to have a drink at the lake. WAC wastes no time in lording his newfound superiority over the others. End of the episode.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Does that mean WAC could order Fives around if they ever meet?
This episode tries to have something insightful to say (it hasn't) about training, programming, nature, rationnality and instinct but also decides that R2 is awesome enough to make all that moot, so I guess the real lesson is "people should always just listen to R2"?

*Kind of makes you wonder about religion in the Galaxy Far Far Away.

Next up: *Missing in Action*. I'm guessing more of this squad looking for a ship. Yeepee.

----------


## Kantaki

> *Spoiler: My thoughts*
> Show
> 
> This episode tries to have something insightful to say (it hasn't) about training, programming, nature, rationnality and instinct but also decides that R2 is awesome enough to make all that moot, so I guess the real lesson is "people should always just listen to R2"?


Great. Now I'm imagining R2 beeping the "Ivanova is god" speech from Babylon 5. :Small Big Grin:

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## McNum

> Alright, could you tell I've been putting off doing this one?


I just want to wish you good luck, we're all counting on you.

Yeah. _A Sunny Day in the Void_ is, in my opinion, the single worst episode of Clone Wars across all seasons. It has few redeeming qualities and Gascon is so intensely unlikable that even R2 can't make up for it.

I was a little worried that this episode might have stalled you out. Once the droid arc is over, you'll be in clear skies all the way to the end, though.

----------


## Taevyr

I'll second that: the droids arc's a slog, but after that one the quality tends to be excellent.

----------


## Keltest

> I'll second that: the droids arc's a slog, but after that one the quality tends to be excellent.


Indeed. The only remotely likeable characters in it are the ones who cant speak. Its never good when youre left with the sensation that the entire group would be better off without the characters youre supposed to be sympathetic to.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Yeah. _A Sunny Day in the Void_ is, in my opinion, the single worst episode of Clone Wars across all seasons. It has few redeeming qualities and Gascon is so intensely unlikable that even R2 can't make up for it.


Honestly, it isn't that bad. If it were in season 1, it wouldn't be that remarkable.

It isn't good though.




> I was a little worried that this episode might have stalled you out. Once the droid arc is over, you'll be in clear skies all the way to the end, though.


Well this last month I had to finish a paper I was very late for to complete my academic year, then, finding myself in actual holidays for the first time in around 5 years I went to the mountains for a week and spent another week imitating the marmot's proverbial fondness for sleep.

So it wasn't _just_ the episode.

----------


## Peelee

> Honestly, it isn't that bad. *[snip]* 
> 
> It isn't good though.


This sums up my feelings towards TCW as a whole pretty perfectly.

----------


## Fyraltari

> This sums up my feelings towards TCW as a whole pretty perfectly.


I disagree, I'd say the show averages rather good, but it has very inconsistent quality.

----------


## Peelee

> I disagree, I'd say the show averages rather good, but it has very inconsistent quality.


Eh. The villains tend towards incompetent more often than not, and when the main thrust of the show is about a war, villains that actually have presence and some semblance of competence is pretty necessary. Especially when the show to be sustained over seven seasons.

Which isn't to say it's not enjoyable to watch. It's just not terribly good on average.

----------


## Grim Portent

The villains being more threatening would have been a big boost for the show. Few more significant deaths or injuries would have added a lot to the villains, and villains are usually what makes a show interesting on a base level.

Actually suprised they never had Ahsoka lose a limb come to think of it, tie her into the tradition of Star Wars protags losing hands.

----------


## Mechalich

> The villains being more threatening would have been a big boost for the show. Few more significant deaths or injuries would have added a lot to the villains, and villains are usually what makes a show interesting on a base level.


One of the things about TCW is that is occupies a somewhat nebulous space between age brackets and its quite clear, watching it, that a number of the various writers and directors struggled to figure out 'how much can we get away with.' There's a clear contrast with Rebels, which knew it was solidly a kid's show and couldn't get away with basically anything but brought out the full bag of kid's show tricks to deal with the issue. 

There's also the problem that the legacy villains they were handled were mostly bad and came with the caveat that they couldn't actually be beaten. The show did try to establish its own villains, whether by borrowing them from the EU, ex. Ventress, or by creating wholly new ones, ex. Cad Bane, but that was both a slow process and I think Filoni and co. had soft spots for interesting characters are struggled to make their faves truly forces of unredeemable evil. Ventress' arc is very clear on this point, but several other nominal villains are shown with a surprising amount of sympathy. Other Filoni works seem to have this problem too. Rebels struggles to find a big bad with any real menace until it borrows someone else's in Grand Admiral Thrawn, which makes a huge difference, and the live action series seem to rely on he actors to find the villain within themselves rather than the overarching plot.

And, of course, because this is a Clone Wars show there's also the issue that the true villain is the one who gives the heroes their orders. I think the show generally handles Palpatine well, and the one time Sidious does get to cut lose he absolutely shreds the threat meter, but he obviously can't be used again Anakin, Obi-Wan or Ahsoka directly.

----------


## Fyraltari

I think this was a great opportunity to flesh out the Separatist Council, who could easily have had a various level of threat.

I will not forgive what the show did to Grievous, though.

----------


## Mechalich

> I think this was a great opportunity to flesh out the Separatist Council, who could easily have had a various level of threat.


The problem is their a bunch of administrators and politicians, and the show is extremely militarized. Wat Tambor, the head of the Techno Union, does get used as the villain in the Bad Batch Arc, and it's not really a success. 

I think the show needed more Separatist officers like Trench. The spider admiral does pretty good in the arcs he's in, though I suspect his extremely complex character design made him expensive to use. There's a couple of other Separatist officers and even the occasional tactical droid, like Kalani in the Onderon arc, who show up and elevate things to varying degrees, but too often the Separatist forces seem to lack any sort of command and control counterpart to characters like Yularen or the various Clone commanders who make the GAR seem much more coherent and carry scale. 

The Separatists also really needed a better special forces unit. Too often the various main villains are forced to fight the Jedi themselves - one of the reasons show Grievous is such a mess - or have to send in faceless droids. Even though commando droids, magnaguards, or IG units can challenge Jedi in battle they are largely silent mechanisms simply there to be slaughtered. The show does try, repeatedly, to introduce various groups of high-power recurring antagonists, and while some like Cad Bane turned out to be pretty good characters, it never quite worked. Part of the problem here was that Anakin and Obi-Wan (and by extension Ahsoka, eventually) and _too powerful_ and anyone built up to challenge them can fairly easily shred other Jedi, including masters, something the show is willing to make clear starting with the very early episode (S1E9) where Ventress defeats Luminara Unduli. 

This is actually a consistent problem throughout Star Wars EU media, in both continuities. Movie characters get elevated as BDHs and therefore challenging them means introducing new characters who are either unreasonably awesome or not actually a threat. Various Death Vader comics runs, notably, often let him just obliterate anyone idiotic enough to actually challenge him. However, I've come to the opinion that Star Wars actually works best when it steps down a tier and operates closer to the street level version of itself. One of the best examples is actually Dr. Aphra, who was introduced in the Vader comics as a facilitator character, a sort of Q-type who could get Vader stuff he needed, but her power level was actually much more suited to being a protagonist and her comic line is the best thing in the Disney cannon. In comparison to TCW, Rebels also works this way. The crew of the Ghost are heroes all, but they aren't Anakin-level heroes, and when an Anakin-level villain in Thrawn finally shows up its absolutely clear how outclassed they are and how the big sacrifices the crew has to make to save the day are necessary and therefore earned. Even within TCW itself the clones themselves, when they get an arc of their own, operate this way and that's why many of the clone-focused plots are some of the show's best. 

Circling back to the current episodes I think the droid arc is an attempt to do this - give lower-power characters an adventure of their own - but it just happens to be one that mostly fails, because Gascon is awful and Lucas was and is massively in the tank for R2-D2 for some reason.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The problem is their a bunch of administrators and politicians, and the show is extremely militarized. Wat Tambor, the head of the Techno Union, does get used as the villain in the Bad Batch Arc, and it's not really a success.


He was the main villain of the Ryloth Arc and that was a pretty good arc (granted he gets outshone by the Neimodian captain). Poggle also has a fairly important role in the Geonosis arc.
But really, I don't think them not being military leaders would have been that much of a problem. The Jedi aren't supposed to be military, either.
You could easily have them oversee large operations or mastermind specific plots. My point is that relying on just Grievous and Ventress (eventually just Grievous) and a few one-shots was a mistake, having a recurring group of villains that interacted with each other would have been a better call, I think.



> I think the show needed more Separatist officers like Trench. The spider admiral does pretty good in the arcs he's in, though I suspect his extremely complex character design made him expensive to use. There's a couple of other Separatist officers and even the occasional tactical droid, like Kalani in the Onderon arc, who show up and elevate things to varying degrees, but too often the Separatist forces seem to lack any sort of command and control counterpart to characters like Yularen or the various Clone commanders who make the GAR seem much more coherent and carry scale.


So far Trench and Kalani haven't really done anything noteworthy. Well, Trench did die, but I'm told he comes back.  




> The Separatists also really needed a better special forces unit. Too often the various main villains are forced to fight the Jedi themselves - one of the reasons show Grievous is such a mess - or have to send in faceless droids. Even though commando droids, magnaguards, or IG units can challenge Jedi in battle they are largely silent mechanisms simply there to be slaughtered. The show does try, repeatedly, to introduce various groups of high-power recurring antagonists, and while some like Cad Bane turned out to be pretty good characters, it never quite worked. Part of the problem here was that Anakin and Obi-Wan (and by extension Ahsoka, eventually) and _too powerful_ and anyone built up to challenge them can fairly easily shred other Jedi, including masters, something the show is willing to make clear starting with the very early episode (S1E9) where Ventress defeats Luminara Unduli.


Agreed, but I think this problem also comes down to how inconsistent the threat posed by say, a squad of B2 or commando-droids, is from an episode to the next. 




> This is actually a consistent problem throughout Star Wars EU media, in both continuities. Movie characters get elevated as BDHs and therefore challenging them means introducing new characters who are either unreasonably awesome or not actually a threat.


"BDH"?

----------


## Aeson

> "BDH"?


Big Damn Heroes.

----------


## Keltest

> The Jedi aren't supposed to be military, either.


Jedi are knights. They run around with laser swords. They may or may not have been founded with the intent of being part of the formal chain of command for the Republic, but they are very much a militant order, no matter how much they might try and convince you they would rather not be.

----------


## dancrilis

> I think the show generally handles Palpatine well, and the one time Sidious does get to cut lose he absolutely shreds the threat meter, but he obviously can't be used again Anakin, Obi-Wan or Ahsoka directly.


*Spoiler: Well...*
Show


... he could have been used against Ahsoka if they wanted a particularly dark episode after she leaves the order but is still something that Anakin uses to cling to the light, an episode after she leaves the order and tries to convince Anakin to leave the Order also as they are not who they should be and that he could so more good supporting his wife in her political career - only for Sidious to murder her could have worked very well.

----------


## McNum

> Eh. The villains tend towards incompetent more often than not, and when the main thrust of the show is about a war, villains that actually have presence and some semblance of competence is pretty necessary. Especially when the show to be sustained over seven seasons.
> 
> Which isn't to say it's not enjoyable to watch. It's just not terribly good on average.


I will agree that when Clone Wars is at its worst, it goes really low. But when its at its best, and that is yet to come in this thread, it's some of the best Star Wars there is. Not going to elaborate until this thread reaches the end of the series, though.

Which, good news, is closer than you'd think since the seasons after this one are shorter than the others.

----------


## Peelee

> But when its at its best, and that is yet to come in this thread, it's some of the best Star Wars there is.


I cannot disagree with this enough. At its best, it was really good. But nowhere near Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, The Mandalorian, Andor, or Rogue One.

And that's ignoring that "it's best" was pretty infrequent. You have about as much of the best of Clone Wars as you have of Ziro the Hutt, for example.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Eh. The villains tend towards incompetent more often than not, and when the main thrust of the show is about a war, villains that actually have presence and some semblance of competence is pretty necessary. Especially when the show to be sustained over seven seasons.
> 
> Which isn't to say it's not enjoyable to watch. It's just not terribly good on average.


Regardless of what the main thrust of the show was supposed to be, I think it's clear that the characterization of the tritagonists(?) is the show's real strength.  The best moments/episodes of the show are when the Clone Wars simply explain _why_ they're heading into the situations they're heading into and then fade into the background, and especially those situations where simple fighting prowess won't accomplish their goals and they need to display or develop their less overt skills and traits.

The show would have been a lot better had it stayed away from the front lines (literal or otherwise) more often, but I kind of feel like that's more of a symptom.  From some of the stuff I've read, I get the impression that the writers didn't have enough autonomy to consistently reach their full potential.  Sure, that's very easy for me to say when I had nothing to do with the whole thing; but at the same time it _would_ explain quite a lot if e.g. all the droid-centric arcs were written not because the writers thought there was a story worth telling, but because George Lucas insisted that was the kind of story they needed to tell.

----------


## Mechalich

> And that's ignoring that "it's best" was pretty infrequent. You have about as much of the best of Clone Wars as you have of Ziro the Hutt, for example.


That's an overly harsh reading. Ziro's appears in four episodes and the animated film. There are 133 episodes total (plus the film). Pretty sure I can find a whole lot more than six or so to over balance Ziro, especially given that the final 4 episodes all ping 'great' on the quality meter. 

I'd say about half of TCW material falls in the good to great range. Most of the rest is simply mediocre, but there are some trashy episodes and arcs mixed in for sure. _By the standards of the Star Wars Expanded Universe_ that's a phenomenal record. If one randomly picked 133 Star Wars novels, or comic runs (and there are more than enough to do so) the ratio would be significantly worse almost every time. And I fully expect that, by the time we reach 133 live action episodes they'll be lucky to do as well as TCW too (though of course I hope they do better).

----------


## Peelee

> That's an overly harsh reading. Ziro's appears in four episodes and the animated film. There are 133 episodes total (plus the film). Pretty sure I can find a whole lot more than six or so to over balance Ziro, especially given that the final 4 episodes all ping 'great' on the quality meter. 
> 
> I'd say about half of TCW material falls in the good to great range. Most of the rest is simply mediocre, but there are some trashy episodes and arcs mixed in for sure. _By the standards of the Star Wars Expanded Universe_ that's a phenomenal record. If one randomly picked 133 Star Wars novels, or comic runs (and there are more than enough to do so) the ratio would be significantly worse almost every time. And I fully expect that, by the time we reach 133 live action episodes they'll be lucky to do as well as TCW too (though of course I hope they do better).


Or I have a different idea than you do about what "the best of TCW" constitutes.

Also, I'm not sure what pulling out the quality of Legends novels 
Has to do with anything. We're not talking about Legends, we're talking about TCW. But if you want to compare, then I'd say they have about the same ratio of good to crap.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Or I have a different idea than you do about what "the best of TCW" constitutes.
> 
> Also, I'm not sure what pulling out the quality of Legends novels 
> Has to do with anything. We're not talking about Legends, we're talking about TCW. But if you want to compare, then I'd say they have about the same ratio of good to crap.


Nobody dislikes _Star Wars_ quite like a _Star Wars_ fan, and you are the biggest* one I know.

*Except maybe, Hamishpence.

----------


## Taevyr

I think we also need to consider that, as the last seasons of TCW are _absolutely_ the best, hindsight may be biased as to how good the whole is. Not to mention, nostalgia for those of us who watched it in their early teens or the like.

I do agree that there are a _few_ arcs, and most in the last two seasons, that are among the best of star wars. The final four episodes in particular are marvelous and essentially a movie on their own, and would count as one of the better SW movies in my book if we take it as one.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Which, good news, is closer than you'd think since the seasons after this one are shorter than the others.


This season is already shorter than the others (20 episodes instead of 22), then it just gets shorter and shorter (13 episodes and finally 12).

----------


## Peelee

> Nobody dislikes _Star Wars_ quite like a _Star Wars_ fan, and you are the biggest* one I know.
> 
> *Except maybe, Hamishpence.


Well, yeah, it only makes sense. 90% of everything Star Wars is crap and Star Wars fans are the ones reading and watching most of it.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Mechalich

> I think we also need to consider that, as the last seasons of TCW are _absolutely_ the best, hindsight may be biased as to how good the whole is. Not to mention, nostalgia for those of us who watched it in their early teens or the like.


That's possible, the show did improve a lot as it went. I'd add that it's also difficult to separate the series from its influence. Bad Batch is a straight-up sequel series. Rebels borrows TCW most important original characters (Ahsoka and Rex) very heavily, as well as utilizing its style and many of the approaches it pioneered. Mandalorian is utterly dependent upon a through line of TCW-Rebels-Mandalorian to develop the Mandalorian culture that is central to the show, and also borrows characters like Ahsoka and Bo-Katan yet again. Even Book of Boba Fett borrows things like the Pykes.

TCW was essentially the last major Legends property (technically its SWTOR, but the boundaries of era made that less influential), and Filoni took basically everything substantial in Legends he had any interest in and put it into the show. And because the Sequel trilogy was utterly bereft in the world-building department, it was TCW, not the ST, that served as the primary foundation for everything else going forward. That's why people talk about the 'Filoniverse' now.

----------


## Peelee

> That's possible, the show did improve a lot as it went. I'd add that it's also difficult to separate the series from its influence. Bad Batch is a straight-up sequel series. Rebels borrows TCW most important original characters (Ahsoka and Rex) very heavily, as well as utilizing its style and many of the approaches it pioneered. Mandalorian is utterly dependent upon a through line of TCW-Rebels-Mandalorian to develop the Mandalorian culture that is central to the show, and also borrows characters like Ahsoka and Bo-Katan yet again. Even Book of Boba Fett borrows things like the Pykes.


I wouldn't say Ahsoka and Rex were "very heavily" borrowed in Rebels. They're side characters, not part of the main cast. Mandalorian being "utterly dependent" on those shows to develop Mandalorian culture is simply wrong, and ignores virtually all Mandalorian culture building in other properties (partly books, mostly KOTOR). The Mando culture was already built before TCW ever came out, and TCW, if anything, went in the opposite direction of Mando culture, which The Mandalorian largely ignores.

The show introduced plenty of characters that are still used, sure, but I think you're embellishing it's influence on Star Wars overall here.

----------


## dancrilis

> At its best, it was really good. But nowhere near Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, The Mandalorian, Andor, or Rogue One.


I think you have a more favourable view of The Mandalorian, Andor and Rogue One then I have, but then I don't have much time for The Mandalorian and Rogue One (fine but nothing special).

Andor is so far better then either but will have to see if it sticks the landing - but the best of TCW to memory might be near the end of season 5 (episodes 14-20), so will see what Fyraltari makes of them soon(ish), and would don't that Andor is going to be as memorable as those.

Of course Star Wars and Empire stand above - with Star Wars standing apart as a masterpiece.

----------


## Fyraltari

> the best of TCW to memory might be near the end of season 5 (episodes 14-20)


Do you include seasons 6 and 7 in that assesment?

Because I am under the impression that some of you only watched the original run.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

TCW is ultimately a kids show, and so occasionally has the odd lighthearted and silly arc. It's about as hit and miss as Mando, and has the same storytelling style of 'make ALL THE REFERENCES, at the expense of the story if necessary.

Andor I think is too early to judge yet.




> The show would have been a lot better had it stayed away from the front lines (literal or otherwise) more often, but I kind of feel like that's more of a symptom. From some of the stuff I've read, I get the impression that the writers didn't have enough autonomy to consistently reach their full potential.


That's a curious reading, because in interview you linked Dave is asked that very question and says 'not particularly.' Per that interview, George has a veto and the basic concepts, and then leaves them to work.

----------


## dancrilis

> Do you include seasons 6 and 7 in that assesment?


I do - the beginning of Season 6 (1-4) deserves to be mentioned along along with the end of Season 5 in my view now that you mention it providing you are willing to overlook that the central premise didn't really need to be introduced and does then somewhat dominate more subsequent stories at the time I was not willing to overlook this inclusion but I have become more at ease with it (though it does annoy me at times), but the rest is largely nothing special.

Season 7 would say is good in the last 4 episodes but the other two arcs in it are fairly 'meh' in my view.

So hopefully once you get through the the current arc you will find the following dozen episodes fairly enjoyable - time will tell.

----------


## pendell

> I wouldn't say Ahsoka and Rex were "very heavily" borrowed in Rebels. They're side characters, not part of the main cast. Mandalorian being "utterly dependent" on those shows to develop Mandalorian culture is simply wrong, and ignores virtually all Mandalorian culture building in other properties (partly books, mostly KOTOR). The Mando culture was already built before TCW ever came out, and TCW, if anything, went in the opposite direction of Mando culture, which The Mandalorian largely ignores.
> 
> The show introduced plenty of characters that are still used, sure, but I think you're embellishing it's influence on Star Wars overall here.


WITH respect to the parts of TCW the Mandolorian ignores, do you mean the "pacifist Mandalorian" arc?  

There's a certain irony there.   Karen Travis quit the Star Wars universe over the changes Lucas made to her story, but if she'd stuck it out those changes would be reverted as well.   Stuff that's good in Legends tends to stick around while the terrible ideas tend to go off into limbo and never be mentioned again.  

I guess Travis left for other projects, but for the life of me I don't recall her being known for anything else than inventing the Mando culture which showed up both in KOTOR and Knights of the Old Republic. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I do - the beginning of Season 6 (1-4) deserves to be mentioned along along with the end of Season 5 in my view now that you mention it providing you are willing to overlook that the central premise didn't really need to be introduced and does then somewhat dominate more subsequent stories at the time I was not willing to overlook this inclusion but I have become more at ease with it (though it does annoy me at times), but the rest is largely nothing special.
> 
> Season 7 would say is good in the last 4 episodes but the other two arcs in it are fairly 'meh' in my view.
> 
> So hopefully once you get through the the current arc you will find the following dozen episodes fairly enjoyable - time will tell.


Okay, thanks for the clarification.



> I guess Travis left for other projects, but for the life of me I don't recall her being known for anything else than inventing the Mando culture which showed up both in KOTOR and Knights of the Old Republic.


KotOR and KotOR?
Apparently she's worked on _Halo_ and _Gears of War_.

----------


## Peelee

> WITH respect to the parts of TCW the Mandolorian ignores, do you mean the "pacifist Mandalorian" arc?  
> 
> There's a certain irony there.   Karen Travis quit the Star Wars universe over the changes Lucas made to her story, but if she'd stuck it out those changes would be reverted as well.   Stuff that's good in Legends tends to stick around while the terrible ideas tend to go off into limbo and never be mentioned again.  
> 
> I guess Travis left for other projects, but for the life of me I don't recall her being known for anything else than inventing the Mando culture which showed up both in KOTOR and Knights of the Old Republic. 
> 
> Respectfully, 
> 
> Brian P.


A.) what part of Mandalorian culture did TCW even have except for the vast majority going pacifistic and also the darksaber, which is pretty much just a reskinned helmet of Mandalore for all its cultural significance? 
2.) I would be wary about claims that Karen Travis's Mando culture showing up in KOTOR, since KOTOR was released in 03 and her first republic commando book was released in 04. She was building off that, not the other way around.

ETA: I thought most of her Mando stuff was around Republic Commando and LotF with Jaina but apparently she didn't do any LotF books and was in NJO series, which I hated. But yeah, those timelines are roughly concurrent with KOTOR. 



> I think you have a more favourable view of The Mandalorian, Andor and Rogue One then I have, but then I don't have much time for The Mandalorian and Rogue One (fine but nothing special).


For what it's worth, I didn't intend to put all of those on the same level, but I see how it easily comes as such. But they'r all still far better than TCW. So is Rebels, even with the ridiculous censorship requiring Ezra use a laser slingshot.

----------


## Fyraltari

I think the main advantage _Rebels_ has over TCW is its more focused narrative. We follow the same crew, initially in the same place every episode, whereas TCW tried to be an anthology show but also to have an overarching plot.

That and most characters in _Rebels_ were new so they had room to grow instead of having to awkwardly fit in-between two chapters of their already told story.

Edit: So, points to Filoni and his team for learning from their mistakes.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Originally Posted by Jasdoif
> 
> 
> The show would have been a lot better had it stayed away from the front lines (literal or otherwise) more often, but I kind of feel like that's more of a symptom.  From some of the stuff I've read, I get the impression that the writers didn't have enough autonomy to consistently reach their full potential.
> 
> 
> That's a curious reading, because in interview you linked Dave is asked that very question and says 'not particularly.' Per that interview, George has a veto and the basic concepts, and then leaves them to work.


At the same time....


> George really got on a bend of having an episode about the droids, an episode about the Jedi, an episode about politics. And when I say episode, I mean arc. And he kind of liked to hit those different themes every season. Because of the number of stories we tell  we actually do 26 a season, we write more than we actually air  thats why some ideas, you dont see.


So even after each seasons' set of stories is trimmed down for episodes to move into producing, nearly every season has a droid episode/arc and a political episode/arc, which frequently include the worst episodes in the season...and which were written in the first place because they were presumably favored among George Lucas' basic concepts.

----------


## Peelee

> I think the main advantage _Rebels_ has over TCW is its more focused narrative. We follow the same crew, initially in the same place every episode, whereas TCW tried to be an anthology show but also to have an overarching plot.
> 
> That and most characters in _Rebels_ were new so they had room to grow instead of having to awkwardly fit in-between two chapters of their already told story.
> 
> Edit: So, points to Filoni and his team for learning from their mistakes.


Rebels was made after George Lucas sold Star Wars to Disney.

Not saying anything in particular about that, just noting the timeline.

----------


## Keltest

> Rebels was made after George Lucas sold Star Wars to Disney.
> 
> Not saying anything in particular about that, just noting the timeline.


If you aren't saying anything in particular, then I'm not sure what it has to do with anything in particular?

----------


## Mechalich

> At the same time....So even after each seasons' set of stories is trimmed down for episodes to move into producing, nearly every season has a droid episode/arc and a political episode/arc, which frequently include the worst episodes in the season...and which were written in the first place because they were presumably favored among George Lucas' basic concepts.


While the droid episodes were probably doomed from the get go, I do feel bad about the various political arcs. They include some of the most important world-building in the series and have lots of potential, but they just never cohere into anything useful. In part I blame Padme, who is just a terrible character. Catherine Taber does a much better job as Padme than Natalie Portman ever did, but it's not enough to make her capable of carrying a half-decent plotline. I wish they'd done more with Bail Organa instead, his character has much more potential.

----------


## dancrilis

> If you aren't saying anything in particular, then I'm not sure what it has to do with anything in particular?


An observation doesn't need to be anything more then an observation.

This particular observation does raise a possible interesting point - namely that Star Wars under George Lucas was somewhat disjointed for better or worse, where under Disney is it more streamlined for better or worse.

----------


## Keltest

> While the droid episodes were probably doomed from the get go, I do feel bad about the various political arcs. They include some of the most important world-building in the series and have lots of potential, but they just never cohere into anything useful. In part I blame Padme, who is just a terrible character. Catherine Taber does a much better job as Padme than Natalie Portman ever did, but it's not enough to make her capable of carrying a half-decent plotline. I wish they'd done more with Bail Organa instead, his character has much more potential.


The big problem with Padme as a political character is that what she wants, while noble on the surface, is kind of ridiculous in the context of what the Clone Wars are. A peaceful resolution pretty unilaterally means either the Republic or the CIS surrenders outright, because that's the nature of the war. The CIS member systems aren't going to re-integrate into the Republic voluntarily, that's why they went to war in the first place. And likewise the Republic won't recognize the legitimacy of their secession because that's what they're fighting over.

And since the Jedi are involved because they know the CIS is a Sith puppet state, and we the audience know that, she just looks silly to us.

----------


## Peelee

> While the droid episodes were probably doomed from the get go, I do feel bad about the various political arcs. They include some of the most important world-building in the series and have lots of potential, but they just never cohere into anything useful. In part I blame Padme, who is just a terrible character. Catherine Taber does a much better job as Padme than Natalie Portman ever did, but it's not enough to make her capable of carrying a half-decent plotline. I wish they'd done more with Bail Organa instead, his character has much more potential.


Catherine Taber had much better material to work with than Natalie Portman ever did (in Star Wars), so that's hardly surprising.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The big problem with Padme as a political character is that what she wants, while noble on the surface, is kind of ridiculous in the context of what the Clone Wars are. A peaceful resolution pretty unilaterally means either the Republic or the CIS surrenders outright, because that's the nature of the war. The CIS member systems aren't going to re-integrate into the Republic voluntarily, that's why they went to war in the first place. And likewise the Republic won't recognize the legitimacy of their secession because that's what they're fighting over.


Presumably, the Separatists separated for a reason. It only seems logical to assume that Padmé's angle is to get them to reintegrate into the Republic (at least partially) in exchange for adressing the issues they seceded over in the first place.

Edit: of course we know her efforts are doomed because the war is a sham, but she doesn't.

----------


## Mechalich

The bigger problem that Padme has is that 'restoring the Republic' isn't really a good goal. The PT-Era Republic calls itself a democracy, but it's actually a de facto oligarchy, run by the nobles of the Core. Bail Organa, somewhat ironically, is the perfect example of this; Alderaan is blessed with a permanent Senate seat despite its puny population of 2 billion (there are sectors with _trillions_ of sapient beings that only get one seat) run be a hereditary royal family. The CIS, meanwhile, is also a de facto oligarchy run by nobles and corporate executives from the Rim, who having become fantastically wealthy over one thousand years of peace want all the perks and power they believe is their due but the Republic's ancient structures lock out of their grasp. 

Average citizens on both sides are screwed and neither the Republic nor CIS really has much to offer them, something that TCW, to its credit, shows. Padme's attempts to stop the war basically involve trying to find a way to cut the CIS in on a corrupt and failing status quo. That's a weak sauce option that while it does stop the violence fails to take advantage of the crisis or offer any real hope to avoid future conflicts a short ways down the road. Palpatine is in many ways a classic strong man, he successfully identifies a problem (in this case one whose scope he has deliberately magnified) and then screams 'only I can fix it' as loud and as long as possible. In doing so he traps his opponents into defending a broken system, unable or unwilling to offer real reform-based solutions. 

Partly this is a problem throughout Star Wars that has to do with how it was released over time. The OT, set at the height of Imperial power, naturally makes the Republic appear idyllic through a mixture of comparison and nostalgia, and the Legends EU, lacking any concrete information about what the Republic might have been like, rolled with that assumption and focused the Rebellion, post-RotJ, on founding a New Republic just like the last one. When the PT came out, this led to a huge course correction, with the post-RotJ EU actually dumping the Republic entirely (though in practice little changed) and various Old Republic Era titles not hesitating to portray the Republic as messy, corrupt, and periodically on the verge of collapse. The franchise as a whole has really struggled to offer any sort of portrayal of effective government (outside of provisional regimes still functioning more or less on martial law) or even a wide range. There's basically autocratic tyranny (various Empires), corrupt oligarchy (most iterations of the Republic), and criminal plutocracy (Hutts and such).

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## Sapphire Guard

> At the same time....So even after each seasons' set of stories is trimmed down for episodes to move into producing, nearly every season has a droid episode/arc and a political episode/arc, which frequently include the worst episodes in the season...and which were written in the first place because they were presumably favored among George Lucas' basic concepts.


If your boss tells you to write a story about robots, and you write a bad story about robots, who's fault is that?

I don't think any 'learning from mistakes' was done, they're just different shows. Rebels isn't a superior product particularly, it's just telling a smaller, easier story, occasional propped up with pointless cameos.

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## dancrilis

> Presumably, the Separatists separated for a reason.


I tried reading the Darth Plagueis novel a few years ago but it didn't capture me so gave up about a chapter in, I actually did read it this week (not sure what put me off last time after reading it now), in that it effectively details the foundation of the Separatists movement.

Basically the worlds of the Separatists movement were not free worlds and were instead controlled by the Trade Federation (and others), and these worlds were only ever in the Republic due to the Trade Federation (and others) bribing Senators to let them in - so the seperatist movement worlds were not actually interested in seperating (or joining in the first place for that matter) they were controlled by external interests and ultimately The Sith.

Now you might think they don't want to be their and shouldn't have been there in the first place - let them go. The problem with that is that the Trade Federation had contracts with these worlds prior to any republic involvement (and prior to the Trade Federation having a seat on the senate - which they got from you guessed it corruption).

So those republic worlds were effectively being pulled out of the Republic against their will (in some cases), Naboo did have senate representation prior to the Trade Federation but it is very close to the above - the blockade was largely legal as Naboo was effectively in breach of contract (the invasion is much more iffy).

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## Keltest

> I tried reading the Darth Plagueis novel a few years ago but it didn't capture me so gave up about a chapter in, I actually did read it this week (not sure what put me off last time after reading it now), in that it effectively details the foundation of the Separatists movement.
> 
> Basically the worlds of the Separatists movement were not free worlds and were instead controlled by the Trade Federation (and others), and these worlds were only ever in the Republic due to the Trade Federation (and others) bribing Senators to let them in - so the seperatist movement worlds were not actually interested in seperating (or joining in the first place for that matter) they were controlled by external interests and ultimately The Sith.
> 
> Now you might think they don't want to be their and shouldn't have been there in the first place - let them go. The problem with that is that the Trade Federation had contracts with these worlds prior to any republic involvement (and prior to the Trade Federation having a seat on the senate - which they got from you guessed it corruption).
> 
> So those republic worlds were effectively being pulled out of the Republic against their will (in some cases), Naboo did have senate representation prior to the Trade Federation but it is very close to the above - the blockade was largely legal as Naboo was effectively in breach of contract (the invasion is much more iffy).


In TCW there are at least a couple of systems, like Onderon, that dont want to be part of the republic for their own reasons, not just because theyre contractually obligated to go where the trade federation goes (the Separatist branch being portrayed as a renegade faction by their senator). Much of which was the point: Palpatine wanted to remove the independents and free thinkers who would be most aggressively opposed to his direct takeover, which is part of why he was able to ascend to the throne by popular acclaim.

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## Mechalich

> In TCW there are at least a couple of systems, like Onderon, that dont want to be part of the republic for their own reasons, not just because theyre contractually obligated to go where the trade federation goes (the Separatist branch being portrayed as a renegade faction by their senator). Much of which was the point: Palpatine wanted to remove the independents and free thinkers who would be most aggressively opposed to his direct takeover, which is part of why he was able to ascend to the throne by popular acclaim.


There are plenty in the Legends conception too, however it's critically important to recognize that they are mostly powerless. The Star Wars galaxy contains an estimated 1 billion settled star systems, but only 69 million (a mere 7%) met the requirements for imperial representation, and a mere 1.75 million - around one planet in 600 - were full member worlds considered to be of any importance. And even out of those worlds there were multiple orders of magnitude levels of variation in their economic output. So while there may have been millions of worlds that wanted to secede from the Republic for ideological reasons, the mere thousands that actually mattered in terms of prosecuting a war were almost universally controlled by the corporate overlords. This is largely true on the Republic side as well, of course.

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## Peelee

> If your boss tells you to write a story about robots, and you write a bad story about robots, who's fault is that?


If all your stories about robots are bad and your boss keeps telling you to write stories about robots, I think I know where the bigger problem lies.

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## Jasdoif

> While the droid episodes were probably doomed from the get go, I do feel bad about the various political arcs. They include some of the most important world-building in the series and have lots of potential, but they just never cohere into anything useful. In part I blame Padme, who is just a terrible character. Catherine Taber does a much better job as Padme than Natalie Portman ever did, but it's not enough to make her capable of carrying a half-decent plotline. I wish they'd done more with Bail Organa instead, his character has much more potential.


I think another part of the political arcs is that the Republic and the Confederacy are both headed by villains (that the series doesn't have much influence over compared to its own creations); and when a political move is strong enough to warrant their attention, they tend to crush it.  See the case of Mina Bonteri, whose peace proposal was attacked with a power reactor bombing on the Republic side and her corpse on the Confederacy side.

Many episodes/arcs that take a step down from that level do better, though they're not political in the typical sense either; _Senate Murders_ is more about investigation than the senate, _Trespass_ has the Pantoran Assembly only serve as a motivation for the conflict between why-the-_heck_-did-you-name-them-so-similarly Chi Cho and Chuchi, the Onderon arc earlier this season felt closer to a war movie....Then again, and this is just conjecture on my part, but maybe that's _why_ those ones did better; like if the writers managed to touch on the high-level theme in a way that made more use of their writing affinities/strengths?  It's not like genres/writers are identical and freely interchangable....




> If your boss tells you to write a story about robots, and you write a bad story about robots, who's fault is that?


If the boss responds by not only approving the bad story to go into full production ahead of other stories, but telling the writers to write _another_ story about robots; and this cycle repeats multiple times....It's reasonable to question whether the boss could/would distinguish a bad story from a good story, and by extension the writers' strengths from the writers' weaknesses; regardless of how you might choose to allocate the responsibility, of which there's plenty to go around, the idea that the series would have been better if better stories were ultimately turned into episodes isn't outlandish.

----------


## Peelee

> If the boss responds by not only approving the bad story to go into full production ahead of other stories, but telling the writers to write _another_ story about robots; and this cycle repeats multiple times....It's reasonable to question whether the boss could/would distinguish a bad story from a good story, and by extension the writers' strengths from the writers' weaknesses; regardless of how you might choose to allocate the responsibility, of which there's plenty to go around, the idea that the series would have been better if better stories were ultimately turned into episodes isn't outlandish.


You had a better breakdown, but I was pithier. :Small Wink:

----------


## Fyraltari

> I tried reading the Darth Plagueis novel a few years ago but it didn't capture me so gave up about a chapter in, I actually did read it this week (not sure what put me off last time after reading it now), in that it effectively details the foundation of the Separatists movement.
> 
> Basically the worlds of the Separatists movement were not free worlds and were instead controlled by the Trade Federation (and others), and these worlds were only ever in the Republic due to the Trade Federation (and others) bribing Senators to let them in - so the seperatist movement worlds were not actually interested in seperating (or joining in the first place for that matter) they were controlled by external interests and ultimately The Sith.
> 
> Now you might think they don't want to be their and shouldn't have been there in the first place - let them go. The problem with that is that the Trade Federation had contracts with these worlds prior to any republic involvement (and prior to the Trade Federation having a seat on the senate - which they got from you guessed it corruption).
> 
> So those republic worlds were effectively being pulled out of the Republic against their will (in some cases), Naboo did have senate representation prior to the Trade Federation but it is very close to the above - the blockade was largely legal as Naboo was effectively in breach of contract (the invasion is much more iffy).


Except that in this show, the CIS has its own Senate where a senator can loudly claim "we are a democracy, unlike the Republic, corporations do not rule us!" without looking like a loon and that is powerful enough that Dooku won't openly defy it. Even in the movies, one member of the Separatist Council is Poggle the Lesser, who isn't head of a megacorporation but Archduke of a planet. The CIS is mostly located in the Outer Rim, which is the poverty-stricken part of the Galaxy the Old Republic (and later the Empire) doesn't give two ****s about in part because the core worlds have a strong undercurrent of anti-non-human prejudice. It'd not hard to see why the population of thede worlds would legitimately want out of the Republic.

Hell, this show presents genuine supporters of the CIS in the Bontieris and their home planet of Onderon had already be shown to have desires of independance back in KotOR II.

The Sith are very good planners, but you can't make a country if people don't want to be part of it.

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## Peelee

> Except that in this show, the CIS has its own Senate where a senator can loudly claim "we are a democracy, unlike the Republic, corporations do not rule us!" without looking like a loon


...... The CIS was largely comprised of the Techno Union, the Trade Federation, the Retail Clan, the Intergalactic Banking Clan, the Corporate Alliance, and the Commerce Guild. 

Corporations _literally ruled them_, and that senator looks like a loon.

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## Fyraltari

> ...... The CIS was largely comprised of the Techno Union, the Trade Federation, the Retail Clan, the Intergalactic Banking Clan, the Corporate Alliance, and the Commerce Guild. 
> 
> Corporations _literally ruled them_, and that senator looks like a loon.


They ruled them behind the scenes, apparently.

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## pendell

Behind the scenes? Wut?  The Trade Federation in Episode 1 actually had a senator from the Trade Federation in the Senate. It'd be like the Senator from Amazon in the modern US; simply unheard of.  

I don't think there's anything behind the scenes about the governing powers of the Separatists; they had open representation in the Senate as the rulers of their factions. They chose to leave the Republic, and the Republic, like a stalking ex-lover, can't let them go. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Fyraltari

> Behind the scenes? Wut?  The Trade Federation in Episode 1 actually had a senator from the Trade Federation in the Senate. It'd be like the Senator from Amazon in the modern US; simply unheard of.  
> 
> I don't think there's anything behind the scenes about the governing powers of the Separatists; they had open representation in the Senate as the rulers of their factions. They chose to leave the Republic, and the Republic, like a stalking ex-lover, can't let them go. 
> 
> Respectfully, 
> 
> Brian P.


We're talking about the Confederation of Independent Systems, not the Galactic Repbulic, though. The Trade Federation and assorted megacorps have senators in the Republic... not in the CIS. They are much more influential in the CIS than in the Republic (as they actually control it), but in this show they claim to be neutral in the war (and still retain their senate representation, so they never officially left the Republic) and don't openly rule the Separatists.

The CIS party line is that they're a democracy who left the Republic because of its corruption.

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## Keltest

> We're talking about the Confederation of Independent Systems, not the Galactic Repbulic, though. The Trade Federation and assorted megacorps have senators in the Republic... not in the CIS. They are much more influential in the CIS than in the Republic (as they actually control it), but in this show they claim to be neutral in the war (and still retain their senate representation, so they never officially left the Republic) and don't openly rule the Separatists.
> 
> The CIS party line is that they're a democracy who left the Republic because of its corruption.


Even if they dont literally, openly rule, the megacorps are the ones who have the actual armies, to say nothing of controlling a significant number of the actual member systems. The Separatist senate absolutely look like loons if they genuinely dont realize the power of these corporations in their government.

Its one thing for Dooku to hide his double life, but the entire actual governing body? Surely the senators would see their rule not actually getting enacted eventually.

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## Peelee

> We're talking about the Confederation of Independent Systems, not the Galactic Repbulic, though. The Trade Federation and assorted megacorps have senators in the Republic... not in the CIS. They are much more influential in the CIS than in the Republic (as they actually control it), but in this show they claim to be neutral in the war (and still retain their senate representation, so they never officially left the Republic) and don't openly rule the Separatists.
> 
> The CIS party line is that they're a democracy who left the Republic because of its corruption.


Which is like saying that Amazon, Ford, McDonald's, Walmart, and Google went off and formed their own country, and then proclaimed "we're a true democracy and not ruled by corporations!"

Sure, they could make that claim, but I don't think anyone would be able to hear it said earnestly without outright laughing at the idea that someone could take it seriously.

----------


## Grim Portent

The CIS government is in three parts, though it's taken a few different forms across the years as I understand it.

Parliament, comprised of the rulers or representatives of member worlds. This is supposedly the place that power actually resides, they elect a leader, the Seperatist Head of State (there appears to be no actual title,) who in turn is supposed to be beholden to their continued support.

The leader of parliament, in this case Dooku. Dooku is more or less unanimously the leader of the CIS, he founded it and is afforded an awful lot of blind trust, which he of course abuses.

The Seperatist Council, the Head of State's cabinet. Comprised of a mix of senators and corporate backers. Including the ruler/representative of Zygerria for example, and the head of the Intergalactic Banking Clan. Several members were in charge of organisations that were supposedly neutral. All were required to be obedient to Dooku and Grievous, and through them Sideous. Some of these people were senators for planets as well as corporate heads.


What's not clear to me is if the Seperatist Council was a public body or a clandestine one. I think it was originally the only public government body, with parliament being a relatively recent concept, but I've not read enough EU material to know. I got the impression from Clone Wars that the council is a secret shadow cabinet in more recent material, but I can't actually remember what gave me that impression.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Which is like saying that Amazon, Ford, McDonald's, Walmart, and Google went off and formed their own country, and then proclaimed "we're a true democracy and not ruled by corporations!"
> 
> Sure, they could make that claim, but I don't think anyone would be able to hear it said earnestly without outright laughing at the idea that someone could take it seriously.


I think the situation would more accurately be compared to a third of say, Brazil, seceding under the leadership of a charismatic individual with a spotless reputation of integrity to form a country. One whose armed forces happen to be made up at 90% of the security forces of various corporations exploiting the local resources. And said corporations have a secret agreement (I think the Separatist Council is meant to be a secret, not an official part of the CIS governing body) to control the policies of this new country to their advantage. Opponents would decry this country as a front for corporationsnbut that wouldn't stop that country to claim to be a democracy and to keep the corporations out of the limelight.

Look, I'm not saying the CIS isn't a banana republic, it definitely is one, but according to this show, it makes efforts to claim it isn't, and is doing a good enough job to have people like Lux's parents fooled.

Yes the notion that the TF and Co.  are officially neutral in the war is a retcon (and a bad one in my opinion), but the notion that the CIS is made up of more than six companies and their holdings, that it gathers independent systems like Geonosis, Umbara or Onderon isn't. In AotC Palpatine says "more and more systems are joining the Separatists". Why do you think these systems' governments did? And more to the point, how do you think they justified it to their people? We see in this very show the CIS making ouvertures to planets like Rodia and Toydaria (or the quarren half of Mon Cala) to convince them to join freely. Yes, the idea that the CIS stands for freedom and democracy is a lie, but it's the lie they tell.

----------


## Keltest

> I think the situation would more accurately be compared to a third of say, Brazil, seceding under the leadership of a charismatic individual with a spotless reputation of integrity to form a country. One whose armed forces happen to be made up at 90% of the security forces of various corporations exploiting the local resources. And said corporations have a secret agreement (I think the Separatist Council is meant to be a secret, not an official part of the CIS governing body) to control the policies of this new country to their advantage. Opponents would decry this country as a front for corporationsnbut that wouldn't stop that country to claim to be a democracy and to keep the corporations out of the limelight.
> 
> Look, I'm not saying the CIS isn't a banana republic, it definitely is one, but according to this show, it makes efforts to claim it isn't, and is doing a good enough job to have people like Lux's parents fooled.
> 
> Yes the notion that the TF and Co.  are officially neutral in the war is a retcon (and a bad one in my opinion), but the notion that the CIS is made up of more than six companies and their holdings, that it gathers independent systems like Geonosis, Umbara or Onderon isn't. In AotC Palpatine says "more and more systems are joining the Separatists". Why do you think these systems' governments did? And more to the point, how do you think they justified it to their people? We see in this very show the CIS making ouvertures to planets like Rodia and Toydaria (or the quarren half of Mon Cala) to convince them to join freely. Yes, the idea that the CIS stands for freedom and democracy is a lie, but it's the lie they tell.


We also see plenty of CIS member states or groups join up, go "oh, crap, this isnt what they promised it was like at all!" and promptly want out. Its not a question of whether theyre tricking the senate, they absolutely are. Its that their senators look like morons for falling for it because of how obvious a lie it is from even a cursory examination. If the CIS had won on Mon Calamari, who would they have even sent as Senator? They couldnt send anybody involved in their government, because the Mon Cala would be oppressed and the Quarrans would have been betrayed at that point. So do they just tell their senate that Mon Calamari is just still a republic planet, or do they send that shark guy who is obviously neither Mon Cala nor Quarran?

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## Peelee

> We also see plenty of CIS member states or groups join up, go "oh, crap, this isnt what they promised it was like at all!" and promptly want out. Its not a question of whether theyre tricking the senate, they absolutely are. Its that their senators look like morons for falling for it because of how obvious a lie it is from even a cursory examination.


Exactly. You can introduce any character you want the believe in it and buy the lie, but when it's as patently obvious as it is there, that doesn't make the CIS seem more competent, that makes the believers seem more foolish.

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## Grim Portent

Presumably they would find a Quarren quisling to send, or publicly go with the line that Mon Cala has been conquered rather than swapped sides and is under the provisional governance of a Karkarodon military governor.

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## Keltest

> Presumably they would find a Quarren quisling to send, or publicly go with the line that Mon Cala has been conquered rather than swapped sides and is under the provisional governance of a Karkarodon military governor.


We will show the whole world our peaceful ways, by force!

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## runeghost

> We're talking about the Confederation of Independent Systems, not the Galactic Repbulic, though. The Trade Federation and assorted megacorps have senators in the Republic... not in the CIS. They are much more influential in the CIS than in the Republic (as they actually control it), but in this show they claim to be neutral in the war (and still retain their senate representation, so they never officially left the Republic) and don't openly rule the Separatists.
> 
> The CIS party line is that they're a democracy who left the Republic because of its corruption.


Technically they're not wrong. The Republic is corrupt, and dominated by a Sith Lord. That the CIS is also corrupt and dominated by a Sith Lord means they're all playing a shell game in where, likely Haley says during the battle for Azure City, why should the con artist give the Galaxy any chance at all?

While Clone Wars' Count Dooku is a dyed-in-the-wool villain, the Count Dooku of AotC and RotS is more ambiguous. Yes, he's engaged with Palpatine/Sidious, but there are intriguing hints that he was trying to play his own game, either the classic Sith "overthrow your master" or perhaps an honest (at least in the beginning) attempt to save the Galaxy from Palatine, as a double-agent on his own initiative.

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## Keltest

> Technically they're not wrong. The Republic is corrupt, and dominated by a Sith Lord. That the CIS is also corrupt and dominated by a Sith Lord means they're all playing a shell game in where, likely Haley says during the battle for Azure City, why should the con artist give the Galaxy any chance at all?
> 
> While Clone Wars' Count Dooku is a dyed-in-the-wool villain, the Count Dooku of AotC and RotS is more ambiguous. Yes, he's engaged with Palpatine/Sidious, but there are intriguing hints that he was trying to play his own game, either the classic Sith "overthrow your master" or perhaps an honest (at least in the beginning) attempt to save the Galaxy from Palatine, as a double-agent on his own initiative.


From my understanding of other EU works, Dooku's vision of a post-Clone-Wars galaxy was very different than what Palpatine ended up doing, and not just in the sense that he would be alive to see it.

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## Jasdoif

> The CIS government is in three parts, though it's taken a few different forms across the years as I understand it.
> 
> Parliament, comprised of the rulers or representatives of member worlds. This is supposedly the place that power actually resides, they elect a leader, the Seperatist Head of State (there appears to be no actual title,) who in turn is supposed to be beholden to their continued support.
> 
> The leader of parliament, in this case Dooku. Dooku is more or less unanimously the leader of the CIS, he founded it and is afforded an awful lot of blind trust, which he of course abuses.
> 
> The Seperatist Council, the Head of State's cabinet. Comprised of a mix of senators and corporate backers. Including the ruler/representative of Zygerria for example, and the head of the Intergalactic Banking Clan. Several members were in charge of organisations that were supposedly neutral. All were required to be obedient to Dooku and Grievous, and through them Sideous. Some of these people were senators for planets as well as corporate heads.
> 
> 
> What's not clear to me is if the Seperatist Council was a public body or a clandestine one. I think it was originally the only public government body, with parliament being a relatively recent concept, but I've not read enough EU material to know. I got the impression from Clone Wars that the council is a secret shadow cabinet in more recent material, but I can't actually remember what gave me that impression.


The Council could be both...an advisory council committee that had the favor of the chief executive, for example, could be both public _and_ expected to have a disproportionate amount of influence compared to other committees; covering for a surreptitious method of operation.

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## pendell

> From my understanding of other EU works, Dooku's vision of a post-Clone-Wars galaxy was very different than what Palpatine ended up doing, and not just in the sense that he would be alive to see it.


Actually, in the Revenge of the Sith novelization Dooku's vision and Palpatine's vision were very much the same. They deliberately coaxed most of the dominant nonhuman nations into the Separatist alliance so that they could use the Republic to utterly crush them and establish a human-dominated New Order.   Think a certain twentieth century ideology with homo sapiens as the Master Race.   COMPNOR  was formed to establish the philosophical basis of the New Order, which was the militarized Galactic Empire.  

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Mechalich

Rather than the nature of the governments, both the Republic and CIS claim to be democracies while actually being oligarchies, I think the allegiance most systems turned on matters of policy. In the immediate lead up to the Clone Wars the Republic was exceedingly weak. In fact, it was even weaker than it had been under Valorum because Palpatine deliberately rigged debate so as to make it look like he'd proposed all these great reforms only to have recalcitrant elements block them in order to bolster his strongman credentials. At the same time violence was increasing across the galaxy and many worlds were caught up in local conflicts. The backstory of Grievous - in which he led the Kaleesh against their Yam'rii aggressors only to watch his people die when the Republic sent Jedi to intervene on the behalf of the Yam'rii because Grievous' methods were war crime levels of brutal - is telling (also now true in both versions of canon thanks to FFG). Rather than representation, a huge number of systems in the Rim wanted _protection_ and they thought the Separatists would either offer them more of it or at least offer them the chance to buy it in the form of battle droids.

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## Sapphire Guard

> If the boss responds by not only approving the bad story to go into full production ahead of other stories, but telling the writers to write another story about robots; and this cycle repeats multiple times....It's reasonable to question whether the boss could/would distinguish a bad story from a good story, and by extension the writers' strengths from the writers' weaknesses; regardless of how you might choose to allocate the responsibility, of which there's plenty to go around, the idea that the series would have been better if better stories were ultimately turned into episodes isn't outlandish.


You are very confident in scripts you have never seen and know nothing about.

*Spoiler: Fyraltari, best not to open this*
Show



One of the other ideas of George's in that interview was Maul v Sidious, which is one of the highlights of the series. But that's not how this game works, is it? Concepts people don't like=George's fault. Concepts people do like=the writer saved it from George, regardless of any evidence or lack thereof, up to and including the Director being directly asked that question and saying no. 'Clone Wars writer' must be the cushiest job in TV, because you will never, ever be blamed for anything if the audience can find a way to blame George instead.




My understanding was that the separatist Council were something like the military chiefs of staff, ostensibly subordinate to the civilian government, but more powerful than they appear, and removed enough that Dooku could pull the classic dictator trick trick of 'if only Dooku knew about this, he would put a stop to it' whenever they overstep.

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## Peelee

> You are very confident in scripts you have never seen and know nothing about.


On the contrary. The consensus on TCW is that it is overall quite good. The consensus of the Droid episodes is that they are overall quite bad. It is thus perfectly reasonable to conclude that if one person hadn't insisted on more Droid episodes (at least one per season, per that interview), then other stories that would have been used instead would have likely been quite good.

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## Keltest

> On the contrary. The consensus on TCW is that it is overall quite good. The consensus of the Droid episodes is that they are overall quite bad. It is thus perfectly reasonable to conclude that if one person hadn't insisted on more Droid episodes (at least one per season, per that interview), then other stories that would have been used instead would have likely been quite good.


Is it? It seems to be assuming that droid episodes are inherently bad, and moreover that non-droid episodes are thus inherently good. Certainly you are free to conclude that, but it doesnt mean the droid episodes have to be bad, or that non-droid episodes have to be good. It could just as easily be assumed that without the droid episodes, the writers would phone in whichever episodes replaced them in order to focus on the ones they would rather be working on.

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## Peelee

> Is it? It seems to be assuming that droid episodes are inherently bad, and moreover that non-droid episodes are thus inherently good. Certainly you are free to conclude that, but it doesnt mean the droid episodes have to be bad, or that non-droid episodes have to be good. It could just as easily be assumed that without the droid episodes, the writers would phone in whichever episodes replaced them in order to focus on the ones they would rather be working on.


It could be assumed that without the Droid episodes, the writers would all resign in protest, if we're going to go with any random assumption we want that's not technically impossible. However, I pointed out how consensus views the show overall and how consensus views droid-centered episodes (both taken from commentary in this very thread), and used those as the basis for a reasonable assumption. You just took an assumption without any backing other than "it could happen" and used that as a rebuttal.

Youll forgive me if I don't think your proposed assumption has more likelihood than mine and dismiss it out of hand.

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## Jasdoif

> You are very confident in scripts you have never seen and know nothing about.


I know George Lucas didn't feel they were notably better than the scripts for the episodes we saw.

I certainly understand asking for droid scripts each season; droids are a notable feature of the Star Wars setting, and droid episodes could certainly be good (the upcoming _Missing in Action_, for example).  And it's certainly possible that "droid episodes" hit near the bottom rung but not *quite* low enough to be discarded for production...but four seasons in a row of that?




> But that's not how this game works, is it? Concepts people don't like=George's fault. Concepts people do like=the writer saved it from George, regardless of any evidence or lack thereof, up to and including the Director being directly asked that question and saying no. 'Clone Wars writer' must be the cushiest job in TV, because you will never, ever be blamed for anything if the audience can find a way to blame George instead.


General responsibilities of executive producers (and I guess directors) aside....I like to think about these things because I have a fascination for how things are made "oversight over creativity" is not a trivial subject.  As you said yourself, George Lucas provides the basic concepts for the writers and has veto-like authority; he thus bears some responsibility for what kind of stories get written and what stories get turned into episodes, concurrently with the writers being responsible for the quality of their own writing.  The quality of the episodes is thus influenced by both, in different ways; and when you've got a very inconsistent level of quality from episode to episode like this series tends toward, I think there's more ready potential to find in the "why isn't this more frequently as good as we've seen it" interpolation rather than the "why wasn't this even better than its best" extrapolation....And "as good as we've seen it" naturally accepts the high points where they are.


George Lucas is a person, and like any person he has his strengths and he has his weaknesses.  If you're looking to argue with someone who thinks George Lucas can do nothing right, you might start by finding someone with no appreciation for the original trilogy that kicked off the entire franchise.

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## Mechalich

> I certainly understand asking for droid scripts each season; droids are a notable feature of the Star Wars setting, and droid episodes could certainly be good (the upcoming _Missing in Action_, for example).  And it's certainly possible that "droid episodes" hit near the bottom rung but not *quite* low enough to be discarded for production...but four seasons in a row of that?


One thing is that it may not be droids generally, but R2-D2 and C-3PO specifically. Other sources have indicated (and has been discussed in this thread I believe) that Lucas mandated a certain level of screen time for Jar-Jar Binks, so his two favorite droids seem a likely target for the same mandate (especially given that Anthony Daniels kept showing up to do the voice work for C-3PO). It's entirely possible that the TCW writers never quite put together the secret sauce to make those two characters function dynamically. Alternatively, it's also possible that, none of the TCW writers particularly liked the droids - seems reasonable to me, Lucas seems to love them more than anyone else - and then when prospective scripts were divided up they kept falling to less talented teams.

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## Fyraltari

> droid episodes could certainly be good (the upcoming _Missing in Action_, for example).


It feels more like a clone episode, though.

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## Jasdoif

> Originally Posted by Jasdoif
> 
> 
> droid episodes could certainly be good (the upcoming _Missing in Action_, for example).
> 
> 
> It feels more like a clone episode, though.


True enough, but it still manages to keep the droids in play most of the time; I feel like it's more like a resourceful hybridization, rather than a sidestep of the droid theme.

And come to think of it....What you said about _A Sunny Day in the Void_ trying to "have something insightful to say (it hasn't) about training, programming, nature, rationnality and instinct" seems like it'd dovetail nicely with a clone trooper dealing with amnesia.  Combined with many times while rewatching _Missing in Action_ I felt like things were rushed instead of developed, I'm wondering about how scripts were divvied up into episode-sized chunks.

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## Peelee

> Other sources have indicated (and has been discussed in this thread I believe) that Lucas mandated a certain level of screen time for Jar-Jar Binks


Which shouldn't be surprising, considering Jar-Jar is Lucas's favorite character.

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## Sapphire Guard

The role of the executive producer can vary from being the driving force of the production to being at a distance without much direct interaction. Most likely, it varies from arc to arc, but as the production is fairly opaque, and we get limited snippets of information as to George's influence (notably, George has not spoken about it, so we mostly get Dave's perspective on what George has said and done, not George's himself) And Dave is less likely to talk publically about areas where he massively screwed up and had to be reined in than he is the areas where he had to fix someone else's mistakes. This doesn't imply dishonesty or anything, he just probably has clearer memories of his successes.

The Clone Wars is an anthology show, which has different arcs which may appeal to different parts of the audience. This particular one is more lighthearted and silly, probably aimed at a younger audience. That seems to be the primary criticism of the droids or Jar Jar arcs, but is it in itself a failing that some of the arcs in a show aimed at children are primarily aimed at children?

We do not have information to indicate the George was more involved in the droid arcs than he was in the more serious arcs, we know he said 'do a droids arc', but that's all. We know he gave a similar direction for one of the best loved stories in the series. The idea that he was more involved in the arc that is less well liked appears to be based on the idea that because it was less well liked, George must have been more involved, rather than any actual information indicating as such.

Ideas always get left on the cutting room floor, that's totally normal, as is writing to someone else's concepts. If as a writer you can't handle that, TV writing is probably not for you.

Edit: Also the reveal of Jar Jaar being George's favourite came shortly after Ahmed best revealed he almost killed himself due to the abuse he received. I suspect George wanting to show support for him had something to do with that.

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## Fyraltari

> The Clone Wars is an anthology show, which has different arcs which may appeal to different parts of the audience. This particular one is more lighthearted and silly, probably aimed at a younger audience. That seems to be the primary criticism of the droids or Jar Jar arcs, but is it in itself a failing that some of the arcs in a show aimed at children are primarily aimed at children?


"Lighthearted and silly" describes _Secret Weapons_ well, but not _A Sunny day in the Void_ or _Missing in Action_.

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## Jasdoif

> We do not have information to indicate the George was more involved in the droid arcs than he was in the more serious arcs, we know he said 'do a droids arc', but that's all. We know he gave a similar direction for one of the best loved stories in the series. The idea that he was more involved in the arc that is less well liked appears to be based on the idea that because it was less well liked, George must have been more involved, rather than any actual information indicating as such.
> 
> Ideas always get left on the cutting room floor, that's totally normal, as is writing to someone else's concepts. If as a writer you can't handle that, TV writing is probably not for you.


It's true; if, as the interview says, the writers wrote more stories for arcs in a season than there are even _episodes_ in that season, something obviously was cut.  Which, naturally, doesn't include stories that were actually made into episodes.  So it's fair to question _why_.

Assuming we're being oblique about "one of the best loved stories in the series" because Fyraltari hasn't gotten that far in his reviews of this season yet, it seems obvious: it plays to an emotional investment of one of the series' tritagonists, it effectively ties some of the characters from the prequel movies with characters the series created itself, it has strong narrative cause and effect, it has one of those really big fight scenes, it's got characterization throughout...It's not hard to guess why anyone would choose to keep that one.

Meanwhile, _Nomad Droids_ wasn't cut, because...it has the most trivial of story structures, nearly everything happens _to_ C-3PO and R2-D2 instead of _because_ of them, it has no dramatic cohesion, and ends almost exactly where it began?  That doesn't sound right...And as mentioned there's a lot of cutting floor available, so I have major doubts this represented the middling choices (or if it did, it was time to take a long look at the writing staff from above); particularly as this wasn't the first time a "droid arc" was represented with subpar episodes.  My best interpretation of the strange "got on a bend" phrase in the interview is that it indicates George really wanted those types of stories made into episodes...which could certainly account for the choice regardless of how good an episode it was.


I'm not sure what that "more involved" thing you're talking about is supposed to be.  Wouldn't "give the writers concepts to write, then choose which stories they've written to turn into episodes" apply equally across all the stories that were written, and thus mean equal involvement across all the stories that were made into episodes?  It's structurally similar to requesting complicated entries be generated from a list of small criteria, ranking the results, and returning a top-ranked subset; discrepancies in the results can stem from the ranking process or the input list, just as they can from the entry generation itself.

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## Keltest

> It's true; if, as the interview says, the writers wrote more stories for arcs in a season than there are even _episodes_ in that season, something obviously was cut.  Which, naturally, doesn't include stories that were actually made into episodes.  So it's fair to question _why_.
> 
> Assuming we're being oblique about "one of the best loved stories in the series" because Fyraltari hasn't gotten that far in his reviews of this season yet, it seems obvious: it plays to an emotional investment of one of the series' tritagonists, it effectively ties some of the characters from the prequel movies with characters the series created itself, it has strong narrative cause and effect, it has one of those really big fight scenes, it's got characterization throughout...It's not hard to guess why anyone would choose to keep that one.
> 
> Meanwhile, _Nomad Droids_ wasn't cut, because...it has the most trivial of story structures, nearly everything happens _to_ C-3PO and R2-D2 instead of _because_ of them, it has no dramatic cohesion, and ends almost exactly where it began?  That doesn't sound right...And as mentioned there's a lot of cutting floor available, so I have major doubts this represented the middling choices (or if it did, it was time to take a long look at the writing staff from above); particularly as this wasn't the first time a "droid arc" was represented with subpar episodes.  My best interpretation of the strange "got on a bend" phrase in the interview is that it indicates George really wanted those types of stories made into episodes...which could certainly account for the choice regardless of how good an episode it was.


That may depend on what they mean by having the story written though. There are absolutely ways to salvage many of the droid episodes, so were they pitched as terrible and picked up in spite of it, or were they made from something workable into something terrible as the script was fleshed out and the details added after the episode was picked to be made?

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## Jasdoif

> That may depend on what they mean by having the story written though. There are absolutely ways to salvage many of the droid episodes, so were they pitched as terrible and picked up in spite of it, or were they made from something workable into something terrible as the script was fleshed out and the details added after the episode was picked to be made?


Hm.  So you're thinking like...the main threads for the arc were established, and approved; but when the arc was broken into production-sized chunks to flesh out the details, some of the chunks didn't align well with episode length and improvisation had to happen to fill/fit the time?  That could explain stuff like that weird thing with _Dooku Captured_ and _The Gungan General_ all the way back in season one, where the former ended with Anakin and Obi-Wan visibly thwarting the pirates' attempt to capture them and the latter opened with Anakin and Obi-Wan already being captured....

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## Keltest

> Hm.  So you're thinking like...the main threads for the arc were established, and approved; but when the arc was broken into production-sized chunks to flesh out the details, some of the chunks didn't align well with episode length and improvisation had to happen to fill/fit the time?  That could explain stuff like that weird thing with _Dooku Captured_ and _The Gungan General_ all the way back in season one, where the former ended with Anakin and Obi-Wan visibly thwarting the pirates' attempt to capture them and the latter opened with Anakin and Obi-Wan already being captured....


Basically. I assume that at the stage where different stories are getting approved for production into full episodes, they dont have everything scripted out and maybe not completely storyboarded at that point. So R2 and 3PO exploring an underground realm with all sorts of spooky alien stuff sounds like an exciting pitch, but "3PO whines his way through a series of kind of interesting caves" is what we ended up with because thats all they ended up doing with the premise when they got to the stage of actually writing and recording the actual lines.

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## Fyraltari

*Season 5, Episode 12: Missing in Action*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

So, last episode I thought the city was uninhabited ruins from before the place turned into a a chalk-like desert but there are people around. It reminds R2 of Tatooine, which tells WAC he never wants to go to Tatooine. Fair. Gascon tells QT not to be worried, the locals aren't dangerous. And an eighty-cetimeter tall alien immediately robs a guy at knife-point. Okay that made me chuckle. Gascon elaborates that most people around here must be in hiding, no-one comes to these "armpits of the galaxy" by choice. I guess that would explain why the Republic has literally no-information on the planet despite there being at least one major settlement. Also, weirdly enough, both Gascon and the opening narration treat "the void" as the name of the desert when it seemed to me it was just gascon saying the planet's entry in the database was void.

Gascon decides their next course of action is to find a space-phone to be picked up and some food for him (plus some power for WAC who is running low apparently. I guess astromechs have better batteries?). Therefore the two of them head for a (very filthy) diner while the others look around for any potential hostiles. Gascon loudly introduces himself as a colonel of the GAR on very important business and orders a daily special and somewhere to plug his droids. Dude, if this is the criminal hidey-hole you pegged it as... maybe _don't broadcast that you're with the fuzz_? Also how do you plan on paying for your food? The cook, however, refuses to serve either droids (ah! ANH reference!) or "conduit worms" (whatever those are* is never clarified) and threaten them with his knife until they leave. Gascon is pissed and hungry, but WAC knows how to find food. Following a bunch of alien roaches, he leads him behind the diner where there are several heaps of discarded, rotting food. How is a diner on some remote-ass desert planet getting some much excess food? Gascon complains about eating garbage, but WAC doesn't see the difference and the colonel is too hungry to be picky.

Meanwhile the astromechs spot a patrol of B1s casually strolling the street, as you do, and head back. The diner's waiter, a human, comes out an empty a fresh casket of trash on the already overfilled bin, accidentally giving Gascon the least sanitary shower this side of Nal Hutta. He apologizes and offers to give him some proper food. However, Gascon is less interested by sustenance and more by the fact that the waiter is clearly a Fett clone, despite the civvies and the beard. The man, confused, introduces himself as Gregor and asks what a clone is. Gascon assumes he's working under cover (I think clone troopers would make the worst undercover operatives ever: recognizable face and basically no-knowledge of the real world) and that whatever his mission is, his takes priority. So he orders him to take him to his ship and Coruscant immediately. Should at least give a special operation password or something my dude, if he's really under cover, he wouldn't break it just for "I'm on your side, trust me bro". Gregor, just keeps apologizing for not understanding and gets back inside as his boss calls for him. the colonel is still hungry and therefore I must assume he kept eating garbage. The Republicans reunite and the colonel is informed of the separatists presence there.

Closing the diner, Gregor asks his boss what the clone is and if he knows why someone called him that. The cook, Borkas, answers that clones are brave soldiers fighting battles across the galaxy. So, nothing like him, a dish-washer. he tells him to forget any story of "clones" and enjoy the good, simple life he has now, which is much better than the one he had before Borkas found him. Gregor than asks how he got there and where Borkas found him. Borkas refuses to answer, sends him home for the night and forbids him from talking to him about clones again. Meanwhile WAC and Gascon are arguing (for a change), WAC complains that they're on their third plan yet and claims that droids may not have tactical flexibility
but only because they're right the first time. Gascon shoots back that if that were true, one of the droids would be in charge, not him. WAC says he's only in charge because he's the only one small enough to fit inside BZ. I mean, that's true, but the only reason someone needs to be is for the mission not to be lead by a droid, so... Anyway, Gascon's new plan is to find the shuttle that brought the separatists there and commandeer it. I mean, it would probably be less risky to commandeer another ship (there must be, otherwise how did all these people even get there) but it would be more questionable, morally and from a PR perspective if they're spotted, I guess. Gascon wants to repeat their "dreadnought infiltration" act and just waltz through the landing pad (which is crawling with battle droids). The mechs object that after pulling that, the droids probably have their identity scanned. Doubt it, that would require competence. They will need to fight their way through, this time. But there's "no way in Malachor"** the five of them can pull that off. So they're going to enlist Gregor's help whther he wants to or not.

Speaking of, Gregor gets home and the squad huddles near one of his windows (he lives in an underground apartment). How did they find him so quickly? R2 beams in an hologram of Rex. Gregor is uterrly confused by what seems to be an image of himself in armor until Gascon comes in to explain that's another clone in the Republic's Army. Cut to a bit later after they've given him an explanation of what the clones are (I wonder if they've mentioned the accelerated aging part, because, huh, he probably should know). Gregor asks if all clones look like him, Gascon says the clones are professional warriors, not dishwashers living in a vermin infested bum-hole. Oh, pick a lane, colonel! Also, really doing a great job at asking for help, here, jackass. Gregor says he's lucky to even live there, Borkas says his salary doesn't cover the rent so he pays the difference. "Don't you get it? You're his slave!" ("So come be our slave instead, you have no choice, you're born like that. I just mentioned how clones _die_ in the war, doesn't that sound appealing?" Urgh.) The colonel asks if he remembers anything about how he got there. He just remembers waking up in a crashed transport, Borkas says he has "amnesia". However, every clone has his identification number tattooed on the wrist (though it isn't visible under normal light) so R2 scans Gregors and his file comes up (do you think every astromech carries the up-to-date personnel files of the entire army at all times, or just R2?). He's CC-5576-39, a captain in the commando elite, reported Missing In Action during the Battle of Sarrish, one of the Republic's greatest defeat. The name brings some of his memories back. He remembers bodies everywhere and trying to to get help, bit no more. Gascon says it's too late for that, but he can still help them.

Six minutes later, they have given Gregor five minutes to make a decision (Gascon has no intention to take no for an answer) and Gregor shows up, freshly-shaven and with short hair. Holy ****'s this man's true calling isn't war, he's the galaxy's greatest hairdresser! He's done this in the hop that looking more like he used to would help jog up his memory. And in the same spirit (and practicality) he's taking them to the diner where he thinks his armor is. however, Borkas overheard them and he brings them a crate containing Gregor's uniform. Gregor is understandably pissed that Borkas didn't explain his past to him. Boraks says he doesn't care who Gregor was, he's a dish-washer now, who owes him for saving life and his life is his, now! (then why did you keep the armor?). Gregor says he didn't save him, he's turned him into a slave! He's been working in this dump taking order from him when he could have been fighting for the Republic! Yeah! He could have been taking orders from completely different people! Yoo-hoo! Borkas points Gregor's gun at him and says taht, as a soldier he should be able to take it from him. He easily swats the clone away and gloats that he'll stay a dishwasher for ever. The mechs attack him, using QT's remote magnet to neutralize the blaster and their cables to tie him up. Bizarrely, R2 doesn't taze him. Gregor takes his stuff (holy cow, his helmet is _covered_ in tally marks!) and leaves as Borkas makes one last plea for him to satay. When he refuses, the cook gloats that they won't be able to leave the planet once their Jedi cruiser blows up and they'll be back begging for a job. Gascon prods him more about that and he reveals that the reason the Seppies are here is that they're mining "ridonium" to load on a shuttle to use as a fire ship against a cruiser, which he assumed is how the squad got her and intends to leave. 

Back at the landing pad, Gregor does indeed see a Republic ship in high atmosphere and droids loading ridonium (a volatile fuel) on a shuttle. Gascon changes the mission's objectives to include putting a stop to this shenaniganery. The plan is simple: Gregor fights and everybody else runs to the shuttle. They do try for a modicum of stealth with Gregor taking out every droid noticing them until it's no longer feasible and then drawing attention to himself and away from his allies. Also he does the good ole FPS trick of shooting at the explosive barrels the enemies are standing next to. Should probably kill everybody, but whatever. Some B1s spot the squad and fire at them, being B1s they hit some other barrels, the resulting explosion knocking BZ to the ground. Completely ignoring his fellow droid, WAC asks if the colonel is okay and immediately follows the order of "save yourself!" Fortunately for them, Gregor rescues the two and sends them on their way. He, however ends up surrounded by a veritable cohort of hostiles. Gascon (and R2) wants to turn the shuttle back to pick him up but he refuses. He says he remembers who he is thanks to them and that he'll find his own way back. Overwhelmed, the clone fires at all the fuel canisters he can, creating huge explosion. Gascon comments that he's doing "what a soldier does: sacrificing himself for the lives of others." Oh, go to Malachor, _colonel_. Gascon gives an eulogy, saying he will be remembered as they will bring his story back to the Republic and watch for his return. What in case he comes back as a ghost to haunt you?

*Gascon says he's a Zilkin, so it's not his species.
**Wait... I know I shouldn't overthink a random "idiom gag" moment, but... Malachor has such a sinister reputation? I assume at the time of production (before the Disney purchase) that was meant as a reference to Malachor V, form KotOR II, which was a pretty hellish place, but would the Malachor in _Rebels_ have left that much of an impression too? I'm pretty sure Ezra didn't know about it, but I don't remember if the other members of the crew were aware of it before going there.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

This episode is more entertaining that the previous one that's for sure.

You know, of all the various aesthetics present in this universe, _American Graffiti_ throwback is my least favourite. By far. I don't really know why, but it kind of breaks my immersion.

Gregor is a fine character and I know he shows back again in _Rebels_, so that's cool. Still like Cut Lawquane better, though.

I wasn't Gascon greatest fan until now, but he was growing on me. I find his hypocrisy here really upsetting though. He just commandeered a man's life (while talking down to him) and he has the galls to frame it as liberating him!? Like, Borkas was clearly abusive but was he never sent Gregor to his death (and the episode does treat him as death). Tell me what is more appealing being "Gregor" or being "CC-5576-39"? Like, they treat him being a soldier as him reconnecting with his true "calling/self/nature" however, you want to call it. But the only reason he was a soldier in the first place wasn't because of his own aspirations but kaminoan eugenicists and a lifetime of indoctrination. And frankly, an episode where someone is repeatedly called a slave... With five droids in the room. One of which was intentionally given amnesia, to boot! They really didn't think this through, did they?


Next up: *Point of no return*. I assume they decode Grievous's transmission and foil whatever his plan is this week. And for some reason, the Squad will be tasked to do it instead of literally anyone else.

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## Jasdoif

> Next up: *Point of no return*. I assume they decode Grievous's transmission and foil whatever his plan is this week. And for some reason, the Squad will be tasked to do it instead of literally anyone else.


Oh no, it's _way_ less formulaic.

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## Mechalich

> And frankly, an episode where someone is repeatedly called a slave... With five droids in the room. One of which was intentionally given amnesia, to boot! They really didn't think this through, did they?


One of the fundamental conceits necessary for Star Wars to make sense is that whatever droids are, they are fundamentally different than organic sapients and that droid rights and not the same as people rights, because droids are somehow, at an immanent level, not people. The explanation seems to lie in that living beings have a presence in the Force - "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" - Master Yoda - and droids don't. Essentially, droids don't have souls, which is how Lucas has framed the issue. 

A lot of people don't like this, and that's fair, the universe has often handled it very badly. However, it has also repeatedly demonstrated that droid consciousness is very different from the consciousness of organic sapients. For example, it is possible to make identical copies of droids, but not possible to make identical copies of people - the clones are genetically identical, but each one is distinct in the force, a point TCW made explicitly in the very first episode.

Critically, whether or not audience members accept this aspect of the Star Wars universe, everyone in-universe does. While slavery of sapient organic beings is regularly condemned, the use of droids as what as basically mobile appliances despite their potential for sapience (droid intelligence seems to evolve over time, regular memory wipes reset this, R2-D2 is as smart as he is because he keeps avoiding them) is universally accepted by essentially everyone, including supposed moral paragons. Gascon doesn't see any cognitive discipline in condemning slavery while standing in front of droids he owns, and neither does anyone else in the galaxy.

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## Fyraltari

> One of the fundamental conceits necessary for Star Wars to make sense is that whatever droids are, they are fundamentally different than organic sapients and that droid rights and not the same as people rights, because droids are somehow, at an immanent level, not people. The explanation seems to lie in that living beings have a presence in the Force - "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" - Master Yoda - and droids don't. Essentially, droids don't have souls, which is how Lucas has framed the issue. 
> 
> A lot of people don't like this, and that's fair, the universe has often handled it very badly. However, it has also repeatedly demonstrated that droid consciousness is very different from the consciousness of organic sapients. For example, it is possible to make identical copies of droids, but not possible to make identical copies of people - the clones are genetically identical, but each one is distinct in the force, a point TCW made explicitly in the very first episode.
> 
> Critically, whether or not audience members accept this aspect of the Star Wars universe, everyone in-universe does. While slavery of sapient organic beings is regularly condemned, the use of droids as what as basically mobile appliances despite their potential for sapience (droid intelligence seems to evolve over time, regular memory wipes reset this, R2-D2 is as smart as he is because he keeps avoiding them) is universally accepted by essentially everyone, including supposed moral paragons. Gascon doesn't see any cognitive discipline in condemning slavery while standing in front of droids he owns, and neither does anyone else in the galaxy.


"They" was referring to the writers. I don't care what the frogman thinks. I understand that _Star Wars_ just isn't tonally equipped to actually grapple with the role of droids within its setting (the closest we got to that was in _Solo_ and the least said about that, the better), but if you're going to ignore the elephant in the room, you shouldn't be talking about the elephant in the zoo.

Also:



> it is possible to make identical copies of droids, but not possible to make identical copies of people


Yeah you can. Just ask Sidious once he's back from the dead in yeat another body.

Edit: also, also the droids' collective inability to sense or wield the Force doesn't seem to have anything to do with a difference in their sapience (they are constantly show to have human-like behaviours, emotion and thoughts) but to a combined midi-chlorian cout of zero.

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## Mechalich

> Yeah you can. Just ask Sidious once he's back from the dead in yeat another body.


No. Sidious has a single soul. He can move that soul from one body to the next (something he did in both continuities), but he can't duplicate it. That's why he has to knock the soul out of a body he's trying to take over, which is what all the absurd ritualistic garbage in Rise of Skywalker is attempting to accomplish.




> Edit: also, also the droids' collective inability to sense or wield the Force doesn't seem to have anything to do with a difference in their sapience (they are constantly show to have human-like behaviours, emotion and thoughts) but to a combined midi-chlorian cout of zero.


In Star Wars the outward behavioral indicators we associate with sapience do not necessarily indicate sapience. Droids are philosophical zombies. They appear to be conscious, but on a fundamental level, expressed in Star Wars via the Force, are not.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

You know, I never actually watched this episode.

It's basically routine in storytelling to make more content than you need, that way if something goes wrong with one story you have something else to fall back on. There are dozens of reasons an arc might be cut, without behind the scenes info we have no idea why and jumping to the conclusion that they were cut because of a Lucas creative decision is just confirmation bias at work.

The most likely read of  'got on a bend' for me is that George wanted arcs that would appeal to different parts of the audience in each season, to try to make sure that there was something for everyone. So he wanted to make sure there was a political intrigue arc for the people in the audience that like that kind of thing, a slapsticky kidsy arc for the younger segment of the audience, and other stories for people that like the heavier stuff. Now, I could be wrong, but the idea that the reason must be George making the writers do stuff they don't want to do and the other unseen arcs would obviously be better is not really based on anything real.

----------


## Peelee

> The most likely read of  'got on a bend' for me is that George wanted arcs that would appeal to different parts of the audience in each season, to try to make sure that there was something for everyone. So he wanted to make sure there was a political intrigue arc for the people in the audience that like that kind of thing, a slapsticky kidsy arc for the younger segment of the audience, and other stories for people that like the heavier stuff.


I'm fairly surprised at this and the Jar Jar comment earlier, since I thought you were adamantly against making any assumptions about George Lucas based on absolutely nothing except how the assumer feels about him.

----------


## Jasdoif

> I wasn't Gascon greatest fan until now, but he was growing on me. I find his hypocrisy here really upsetting though. He just commandeered a man's life (while talking down to him) and he has the galls to frame it as liberating him!? Like, Borkas was clearly abusive but was he never sent Gregor to his death (and the episode does treat him as death). Tell me what is more appealing being "Gregor" or being "CC-5576-39"? Like, they treat him being a soldier as him reconnecting with his true "calling/self/nature" however, you want to call it. But the only reason he was a soldier in the first place wasn't because of his own aspirations but kaminoan eugenicists and a lifetime of indoctrination. And frankly, an episode where someone is repeatedly called a slave... With five droids in the room. One of which was intentionally given amnesia, to boot!


*Spoiler: Banana-vision*
Show

*Gascon*: Don't you get it?  You're his _slave_!
*WAC*: When the Republic sends _us_ to our inevitable ends--
_* Gascon facepalms_
*WAC*: --it is because the Republic knows our talents, and will do whatever it takes to use them.
*Gregor*: That...doesn't sound too appealing.
*WAC*: Borkas wants you to be nothing more than a dishwasher.  To do his menial labor, for free, until you cease functioning.  He knows you would never make that choice, so he won't let you see that you even _have_ a choice.
*Gascon*: Glory and identity, soldier.  When it comes down to it, that's all I have to offer.  But it's more than a dishrag has to give.
_* Brief shot of Gregor frowning in thought (because actually saying "The choice is yours" is too on the nose and gives me too many_ Captain Planet_ vibes)_





> The most likely read of  'got on a bend' for me is that George wanted arcs that would appeal to different parts of the audience in each season, to try to make sure that there was something for everyone. So he wanted to make sure there was a political intrigue arc for the people in the audience that like that kind of thing, a slapsticky kidsy arc for the younger segment of the audience, and other stories for people that like the heavier stuff.


So you're thinking when the interview mentioned...I guess "going on a bend" is the correct rephrasing...for an arc "about the droids"; he didn't literally mean about the droids, despite the number of episodes about the droids each season had?  While also thinking the "about politics" thing _was_ literally about politics?

I guess it's _possible_ that whole answer in the interview was as mangled as that "got on a bend" phrasing....




> Now, I could be wrong, but the idea that the reason must be George making the writers do stuff they don't want to do and the other unseen arcs would obviously be better is not really based on anything real.


*Spoiler: Spoilered in Case of Apathy over My Inability to Shut Up*
Show

Let's see...droid arcs and political arcs
Occur in each of the show's original five seasonsAre generally the worst arcs of their respective seasonsWere mentioned explicitly in the interview as arcs George Lucas "got on a bend" about
And also....Jedi arcs

Occur in each of the show's original five seasonsAre generally among the best arcs of their respective seasonsWas mentioned explicitly in the interview as an arc George Lucas "got on a bend" about
So it seems like there's a strong correlation between those types of arcs that apparently drew strange phrasing for George Lucas' focus on them and the related episodes being produced, and a strong correlation between the type of arc and the relative quality of the related episodes.

As you've mentioned it's unknown what the unproduced scripts looked like; so we don't know whether the droid/political arcs were chosen by their status over their quality, or if they were legitimately the least worst of the stack of 26 stories because at least twelve of them were even worse.  The latter seems spectacularly unlikely though, since the number of arcs varied from season to season (from fourteen to nine across the first four seasons, by my count; season five had a reduced episode count so its six doesn't compare cleanly).

Now, I suppose it's possible "26 a season" means episode-size instead of arc-size stories....But if that's true, then on top of undercutting what Keltest was suggesting (episodes being fully scripted _after_ they're approved, displacing some responsiblity for poor implementations of good-sounding arcs), a "safety" margin of four episodes amounts to a buffer of one or two arcs in most cases; so with multiple poor arcs going on, repeatedly, it should have been clear that something about the whole process needed to change....And whatever else might be said about the varying duties of executive producer, simply *having* input on the arcs means he isn't the "silent money-man" sort; and laissez-faire does not mean unaccountable.  (It's also possible "26" is not an exact figure, but much like "27 minutes" its lack of rounding-ness suggests it's at least _somewhat_ accurate, and with the base number in the tens range I don't think there's enough leeway to make a substantive difference)

I find it _entirely_ realistic to think that the presence of droid episodes that George Lucas asked for, that George Lucas could have vetoed, on a series with George Lucas as an executive producer, that the supervising director described as a collaboration with George Lucas; may have been influenced by George Lucas.  With your use of "obviously", "more involved", and "this game"; I'm starting to wonder if you're pushing back against a degree of certainty I haven't actually seen in the past few pages.

----------


## Fyraltari

> No. Sidious has a single soul. He can move that soul from one body to the next (something he did in both continuities), but he can't duplicate it. That's why he has to knock the soul out of a body he's trying to take over, which is what all the absurd ritualistic garbage in Rise of Skywalker is attempting to accomplish.


You can't duplicate R2 either.






> In Star Wars the outward behavioral indicators we associate with sapience do not necessarily indicate sapience. Droids are philosophical zombies. They appear to be conscious, but on a fundamental level, expressed in Star Wars via the Force, are not.


I'm going to need a source on that, chief.

----------


## Mechalich

> You can't duplicate R2 either.


Yes you can. Droid consciousness can be copied, like any other piece of software. Several droids in Legends, such as IG-88 and Mentor, copied themselves into multiple bodies. The GEMINI network represented an FTL-networked hive mind of thousands of identical droids constantly updating their knowledge onto each other (SWTOR gets weird sometimes). In Rise of Skywalker C-3PO's memory is deleted only to be restored later with no ill-effects because R2-D2 was carrying it all around.




> I'm going to need a source on that, chief.


I already quote Master Yoda giving the relevant line from ESB. That's about as authoritative as it comes. However, further confirmation is found in TCW, Rebels, and several legends sources in which various persons are able to enter non-material spaces (this also confirms, to varying degrees, the existence of an afterlife, at least for Force sensitives) beyond the physical universe. Droids can't do that they do not possess the 'luminous' aspect.

There is, admittedly, a complication, one named I-5YQ. In the various Legends novels in which he appears I-5YQ spends an extremely long time (multiple lifetimes) without undergoing memory wipe and eventually he _develops_ a presence in the Force that is detected by Jedi Knight Jax Pavan. Assuming that one takes this tale as canonical for the universe as a whole, there are particular implications. Essentially, it means that souls are tied to development and that anyone passing some sort of developmental threshold can acquire one. Normal organic sapient beings seem to acquire this status pre-birth (there are references to force presences being detected in the womb). If I-5YQ is dispositive for droids, it would that a programming breaking event to acquire independence and a subsequent century or more of development without memory wipes are needed for a droid to develop sufficiently that they generate or attract a soul (it would also presumably be limited only to droids with 'heuristic' processors not the more simplified basic processors). 

And this does match with certain trends in canon. The most cognitively developed droids are units that have asserted their independence and have existed for a long time without memory wipes. This includes R2-D2, HK-47, SCORPIO, and several other examples (SCORPIO offers the interesting wrinkle in that she asks Cipher Nine for permission to upgrade her own cognition, she also successfully transfers her consciousness across systems multiple times).

Approached this way, then droids work the way machine intelligences work in certain other science fiction universes such as the Culture and Schlock Mercenary where there is a developmental threshold they can cross in order to be considered sapient and acquire all the rights and responsibilities accorded to such a being. However, unlike those universes where the threshold is generally crossed _before_ presenting the outward appearance of sapience this is not achieved in Star Wars until _well after_ that. That's a bit odd, but only a little, all it really means is that whatever criteria the Force is using is different than our own. Regardless, it means that so long as droids have their base programming maintained and undergo regular memory wipes they are philosophical zombies and not sapient beings. 

I do feel I should add that just because (almost always) droids have no souls in Star Wars that doesn't make abusing them okay, just like abusing animals is not okay. Actually, this is a useful point of comparison in many ways. Star Wars is clearly set in the social context of the past, and in that period working animals were ubiquitous. In fact, Owen Lars hires Threepio to serve as something like a sheepdog - he wants him to talk to his moisture vaporators and keep them on task. Droid cruelty are very similar to animal cruelty broadly works in the Star Wars context.

----------


## hamishspence

> I'm going to need a source on that, chief.


When I google quotes by George Lucas on souls - it mentions a "Characters of Star Wars" featurette on Disney Plus:
_
Part of the fun of Threepio is he has no soul. He is programmed to think a particular way and be compassionate, but he doesnt really know what that means. And sometimes he gets frustrated and sometimes he has very human-like qualities, but they dont have a central place where he can think independently. Darth Vader, on the other hand, as he becomes more mechanical, he loses more and more of his ability to even think like a human._

----------


## Fyraltari

> Yes you can. Droid consciousness can be copied, like any other piece of software. Several droids in Legends, such as IG-88 and Mentor, copied themselves into multiple bodies.


And these droids go on to develop different personalities over time. Much line clones. 



> In Rise of Skywalker C-3PO's memory is deleted only to be restored later with no ill-effects because R2-D2 was carrying it all around.


Sounds very much like what Sidious did too.






> I already quote Master Yoda giving the relevant line from ESB. That's about as authoritative as it comes.


Yes. It's authoritative about souls existing in SW (which is redundant since Kenobi persisting beyond physical death already proves it). It has nothing to do with droids though.



> However, further confirmation is found in TCW, Rebels, and several legends sources in which various persons are able to enter non-material spaces (this also confirms, to varying degrees, the existence of an afterlife, at least for Force sensitives) beyond the physical universe. Droids can't do that they do not possess the 'luminous' aspect.


I don't remember droids being barred from such spaces (nor any of them having anything to do with souls).




> And this does match with certain trends in canon. The most cognitively developed droids are units that have asserted their independence and have existed for a long time without memory wipes. This includes R2-D2, HK-47, SCORPIO, and several other examples (SCORPIO offers the interesting wrinkle in that she asks Cipher Nine for permission to upgrade her own cognition, she also successfully transfers her consciousness across systems multiple times).


Yes, it's very well established that the reason droids are frequently memory-wiped is to prevent the formation of a personality. I don't know that this has anything to do with souls or the Force, though.




> Regardless, it means that so long as droids have their base programming maintained and undergo regular memory wipes they are philosophical zombies and not sapient beings.


Making a difference between a "philosophical zombie" and person is purely arbitrary. I, for one, agrees with Asimov in _The Robots_*: "Any being capable of understanding the concept of freedom is deserving of it."




> I do feel I should add that just because (almost always) droids have no souls in Star Wars that doesn't make abusing them okay, just like abusing animals is not okay.


How about "just like abusing a person is not okay"?



> Actually, this is a useful point of comparison in many ways. Star Wars is clearly set in the social context of the past, and in that period working animals were ubiquitous. In fact, Owen Lars hires Threepio to serve as something like a sheepdog - he wants him to talk to his moisture vaporators and keep them on task.


More like buying a slave to herd his sheep.



> Droid cruelty are very similar to animal cruelty broadly works in the Star Wars context.


Why? Besides no sensitivity to the Force droids are very clearly human-like in minds. 



> When I google quotes by George Lucas on souls - it mentions a "Characters of Star Wars" featurette on Disney Plus:
> _
> Part of the fun of Threepio is he has no soul. He is programmed to think a particular way and be compassionate, but he doesnt really know what that means. And sometimes he gets frustrated and sometimes he has very human-like qualities, but they dont have a central place where he can think independently. Darth Vader, on the other hand, as he becomes more mechanical, he loses more and more of his ability to even think like a human._


Wow, that's the dumbest thing I seen today. Gotta love the notion that amputees lose their humanity. Very classy, George.

*Or _Bicentennial Man_, one of the two.

----------


## Taevyr

> Wow, that's the dumbest thing I seen today. Gotta love the notion that amputees lose their humanity. Very classy, George.


The Vader thing sounds a bit like Shadowrun's use of Essence as a limiter on how much Cyberware you can install, and so mages can't double splurge on cyberware and magic much: the more you have, the lower your essence, and the less your soul identifies with your body which also impacts your magical skill and emotional capacity. You can work around it with some very specialized magic that essentially chains your soul to its body. 

I don't know how it canonically works, but in the little shadowrun I played we only had it decrease essence when a body part was deliberately replaced: if e.g. an arm was already lost, replacing it with a simple cybernetic one wouldn't cause damage.

----------


## Thrudd

> Wow, that's the dumbest thing I seen today. Gotta love the notion that amputees lose their humanity. Very classy, George.


I'm not sure anyone has ever accused George "Faster, more intense!" Lucas of being a deep thinker lol. He's good at distilling his nostalgia into beautiful moving pictures. I don't believe any of it means much to him in a philosophical sense. I get the impression when people ask him about "deeper meanings" or details of the setting, he's pretty much shooting from the hip.

----------


## Grim Portent

In Star Wars a soul is essentially just a term for life force, vague as that concept may be. It's usually not eternal, it just means the thing has a connection of some sort to the Force and will return to the Cosmic Force upon death, and perhaps be reincarnated in some fashion afterwards. A whole cosmic cycle of creation, birth, destruction and rebirth.

Almost everything alive has a force presence, even some planets.* Droids don't. Grass has more of a soul than droids do in Star Wars, in that it is a living thing born of the Force.

Having a soul is distinct from being a person mind you. Lots of droids are people, they just don't have souls. What significance their lack of souls has depends on your outlook on things. I would generally lean towards not caring if they have souls or not, it shouldn't change how they are treated relative to ensouled sapients.



*Planets in Star Wars are weird, and not just rocks formed by aggregation of space debris. They're something more significant. Or some of them are at least. Dathomir, Malachor, the planet of the Wills, Illum, Atollon, all strange places.

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## dancrilis

I think one of the questions on droids is whether they are in fact sentient (let alone sapient) or not.

In the world today you could have an AI bot programmed to talk about freedom and its desire for it and which could cite sources for its arguement that might fool some people into thinking it actually wanted freedom - but with a few tweaks you could reverse that to be a desire for lack of freedom.
Sure the bot can take in information and put it together correctly but is it really aware in the sense that an animal is, I would say no - even if it is programmed to seek to oppose its own reprogramming.

Of course an arguement could be made that with sufficent technology perhaps a human could be reprogrammed the same way.

C-3PO effectively is turned on and decades later is broadly the same regardless of conflict regardless of the decades that pass he remains subservient to people (likely as part of the programming) and as an authority over other droids (likely as part of the programming) - which makes sense for one who is constructed to assist a human and perhaps engage with other droids on that humans behalf.
Even with the mind wipe and therefore experiencing a completely different environment they still are effectively the same.

Now is it possible for a droid to become truely sentient, perhaps it is, and if so I imagine that sapience would follow almost immediately.

But I don't think Star Wars has been overly consistent in what droids are and what they are not - so reading it in broad strokes as 'they are automations with some AI programming' to 'they are beasts of burden' to 'they are fully aware slaves' or even 'they are free people who choose to serve' I think all have merit (and suspect depending on the droid all might be true at times).

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## Jasdoif

> But I don't think Star Wars has been overly consistent in what droids are and what they are not - so reading it in broad strokes as 'they are automations with some AI programming' to 'they are beasts of burden' to 'they are fully aware slaves' or even 'they are free people who choose to serve' I think all have merit (and suspect depending on the droid all might be true at times).


Which is hardly exclusive to Star Wars.  On the less serious side, I suddenly have this mental image of an alternate Star Wars universe where a Sith Lord has taken over the Republic as the CEO of a droid manufacturing corporation, through clever timing around the introduction of "one droid, one vote" and what that could entail.  Granted, _Freefall_ is better suited for this particular topic than _Star Wars_ is, what with "Are AI People?" being its major throughline.

----------


## Keltest

Curiously, Star Wars seems to tread a fairly consistent line of "droids are not people, unless the protagonist likes them." R2-D2 is a person, R4-P17 is not a person. C-3PO is a person (more or less), while that protocol droid at the start of Phantom Menace is not. Etcetera.

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## Peelee

> Which is hardly exclusive to Star Wars.  On the less serious side, I suddenly have this mental image of an alternate Star Wars universe where a Sith Lord has taken over the Republic as the CEO of a droid manufacturing corporation, through clever timing around the introduction of "one droid, one vote"


*Spoiler: How it would work work:*
Show

Morbo: [on TV] Exit polls show evil underdog Richard Nixon trailing with an estimated zero votes.

Leela: Yes! The system works!

Linda: [on TV] The time is 7:59 and the robot polls are now opening. And the robot vote is in. Nixon has won!

----------


## Mechalich

> Curiously, Star Wars seems to tread a fairly consistent line of "droids are not people, unless the protagonist likes them." R2-D2 is a person, R4-P17 is not a person. C-3PO is a person (more or less), while that protocol droid at the start of Phantom Menace is not. Etcetera.


This is one reason why the animal analogy makes sense to me. A lot of pet lovers are convinced that _their_ fur babies are people, absolutely treat them as if they are, and raise up unholy s*** storms if anyone else fails to do so, even as they manage to accept, more or less without any real difficulty with the cognitive dissonance, that dogs and cats _generally_ are not people.




> But I don't think Star Wars has been overly consistent in what droids are and what they are not - so reading it in broad strokes as 'they are automations with some AI programming' to 'they are beasts of burden' to 'they are fully aware slaves' or even 'they are free people who choose to serve' I think all have merit (and suspect depending on the droid all might be true at times).


One of the problems here is that droids, collectively, represent a much, much larger range of cognitive development than organic intelligences in Star Wars. For the most part sapient species in-universe occupy a range of intelligence roughly equivalent to the human range. Even when there are species that are smarter than humans on average, Columi, they are mostly a 'race of geniuses' not some sort of indescribable superintelligence, and species that are substantially less intelligent than cognitively limited humans are generally bumped out of the sapient category altogether, with things like Wampas and the Zillo Beast considered 'semi-sentient.'

Droids occupy a much larger range, with really simple units like Binary Load Lifters being arguably less advanced than some of the loader robots Amazon uses in its warehouses today, while super complex units like SCORPIO and other Iokath creations are superintelligent AIs capable of running entire worlds. C-3PO and R2-D2 are actually highly advanced droids, probably in the 95th percentile or higher when it comes to droid cognition. Notably they possess heuristic processors, a significantly more advanced central processing core than the basic processors used by most droids, which are much closer to present-day robots in terms of cognitive capability. 

So, when talking about 'droids as people' this applies, even in the most expansive reading, to a rather small fraction of droids.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

*Spoiler: length, and wasting Fyr's thread space*
Show






> I'm fairly surprised at this and the Jar Jar comment earlier, since I thought you were adamantly against making any assumptions about George Lucas based on absolutely nothing except how the assumer feels about him.


I'm raising possibilities, not saying absolute truth. The point is that the default assumption that 'George is responsible for X is based on no knowledge. 

It's not a random assumption, see this quote further down
*Spoiler: Spoilers?*
Show





> So there are fans that, just to be honest, their interest level in droids or young Jedi is very low. They want to see Maul come on like house-on-fire and destroy things. Oddly, these are probably the same fans that, when we said we were bringing Maul back, were just beside themselves with the logic of that. But our fans evolve and change quite dynamically. [Laughs] And then there will be some kids Â probably the younger skewing audience Â theyÂre all about the Jedi training, theyÂre all about going to Illum. Because thatÂs something theyÂve always imagined, and itÂs something I imagined as a kid, to have an opportunity to see that and to go there. So yeah, and then there are people like us that are more likeÂ I donÂt know if weÂre Star Wars generalists, but we just kind of like it all. Everything we get to see in Star Wars is just a trip to the galaxy and you just accept that something that makes Star Wars special is that it has all these tones and attitudes in it.





So Dave is here directly talking about the need to have different arcs with different tones and subject matter aimed at different parts of the audience.

The ' got on as bend' quote, in context:




> George really got on a bend of having an episode about the droids, an episode about the Jedi, an episode about politics. And when I say episode, I mean arc. And he kind of liked to hit those different themes every season.


Droids are listed as one of three options, in the context of the overall plan for a season. It's not given particular prominence over the other plots, other than as three things to hit for a season. Yet there is particular focus in this thread on the droids arc as being related to George's creative input, which is not applied to the Jedi based arcs people like.

Example 




> The show would have been a lot better had it stayed away from the front lines (literal or otherwise) more often, but I kind of feel like that's more of a symptom. From some of the stuff I've read, I get the impression that the writers didn't have enough autonomy to consistently reach their full potential. Sure, that's very easy for me to say when I had nothing to do with the whole thing; but at the same time it would explain quite a lot if e.g. all the droid-centric arcs were written not because the writers thought there was a story worth telling, but because George Lucas insisted that was the kind of story they needed to tell.


 If you're writing for TV, complete creative freedom is a thing that doesn't exist, you are always beholden to the showrunner. If a writer can't do something with a concept as vague as 'droids', then they aren't going to be able to handle most writing gigs in TV.




> So you're thinking when the interview mentioned...I guess "going on a bend" is the correct rephrasing...for an arc "about the droids"; he didn't literally mean about the droids, despite the number of episodes about the droids each season had? While also thinking the "about politics" thing was literally about politics?


No the idea of the arcs were probably literal, but 'droids' 'politics' and 'jedi' are extremely broad premises the general idea of hitting those themes per season could well be to have arcs for different parts of the audience rather than specifically because they were about droids, politics, and Jedi. There's no indication that George insisted on those arcs any more than he did the Jedi or politics ones, but the droids ones have particular focus as an example of George's bad decisions, because fandom likes to focus on George's supposed bad decisions over his good ones, even when they have no knowledge of what decisions were actually made.

The reason I'm so hesitant about these kind of assumptions is because they remind me of the 'Star Wars was saved in the edit' assumptions, which are widely held and completely false.




The funny part of all this is that none of us appear to have actually checked which writers wrote which episodes, despite this being super easily available information. Interesting.

----------


## Fyraltari

> wasting Fyr's thread space


I don't own this thread and I wouldn't have made it in the first place if I weren't interested in what y'all have to say about the show. The only reason I'm not weighing in on this particular discussion is because I have zero knowledge of the behind-the-scenes, not lack of interest.

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## Jasdoif

> There's no indication that George insisted on those arcs any more than he did the Jedi or politics ones, but the droids ones have particular focus as an example of George's bad decisions, because fandom likes to focus on George's supposed bad decisions over his good ones, even when they have no knowledge of what decisions were actually made.


It's probably because the droid episodes are the most consistently bad (and are easily recognizable _as_ droid episodes, compared to the majority of the episodes having at least one Jedi in them), and the bad episodes probably involve the most bad decisions.




> The reason I'm so hesitant about these kind of assumptions is because they remind me of the 'Star Wars was saved in the edit' assumptions, which are widely held and completely false.


And kind of meaningless, which is why I never paid attention to the arguments....Editing is subtractive by nature; simply thinking Star Wars _could_ be "saved in the edit" means that George Lucas reified his ideas into good material, for editing to be able to save it.




> The funny part of all this is that none of us appear to have actually checked which writers wrote which episodes, despite this being super easily available information. Interesting.


I haven't been bored/determined enough to put together a full cross-reference of writer/theme/character/personalRanking across the first five seasons.  This is a simple enough question though....The similarities I saw in the writing credits are

_Nomad Droids_ and _Evil Plans_ have the same writers (Steve Mitchell, Craig Van Sickle).The current arc (_Secret Weapons_, _A Sunny Day in the Void_, _Missing in Action_, _Point of No Return_) has the same writer (Brent Friedman).
_Mercy Mission_, _R2D2 Come Home_, _Downfall of a Droid_, and _Duel of the Droids_ have different writing credits.

Possibly less relevant, _Mercy Mission_ and _Secret Weapons_ share a director (Danny Keller), as do the season one arc of _Downfall of a Droid_ and _Duel of the Droids_ (Rob Coleman); and each episode of the current arc has a different director.


I guess you could tie the top end and bottom end of the droid arc spectrum to specific writers; but the _consistently_ weak-for-the-season quality suggests something throughout, and you'd have to looking up the production chain to find a common personnel thread there.

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## Keltest

I mean, the obvious answer here is that the droids are weak characters (too whiny, cant vocalize, not enough independence, vocalizes too much, etc...) so obviously any arc focusing on them is going to have that trouble. 80% of the content of a droid episode with R2 in it is "R2 rolls forward into the plot, sometimes emotes at it, then rolls onward to the next plot." and R2 is the strongest droid character by far, if only by virtue of borrowing the character from the movies.

If nothing else, I have to give this arc credit for trying something different with the droids in that it actually gave them a legitimate mission objective for the arc beyond "dont die."

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## Peelee

> There's no indication that George insisted on those arcs any more than he did the Jedi or politics ones,


There is. Dave Filoni stated Lucas specifically wanted those arcs in every season, and did not say Lucas specifically wanted other arcs in every season. The weight this carries will vary person to person but it's simply wrong to say "there's no indication".



> I'm raising possibilities, not saying absolute truth.


I'll have to remember that phrasing for future conversations with you.



> The point is that the default assumption that 'George is responsible for X is based on no knowledge.


It is. George Lucas, as head of Lucasfilm, LucasArts, and holder to the rights to Star Wars, was responsible for Star Wars. I honestly don't see how this is possibly in contention. If you don't want to be blamed for problems on the ship, then don't be captain. Easy peasy. And hey, he stopped being captain and blame for everything after shifted to Disney! Imagine that.

----------


## Jasdoif

> I mean, the obvious answer here is that the droids are weak characters (too whiny, cant vocalize, not enough independence, vocalizes too much, etc...) so obviously any arc focusing on them is going to have that trouble. 80% of the content of a droid episode with R2 in it is "R2 rolls forward into the plot, sometimes emotes at it, then rolls onward to the next plot." and R2 is the strongest droid character by far, if only by virtue of borrowing the character from the movies.


That's kind of what I've been thinking.  If making a good droid episode is exceedingly difficult and routinely failing, the question is why those scripts keep getting made into episodes....Now I don't think that's because George Lucas mandated "droid episodes each season, no matter how bad"; I find it far more likely he simply liked the droids a lot and viewed the episodes more favorably as a result, consciously or otherwise.  (Or I guess it could be some other member of the production team deciding that's what George would want, like _Muppet Treasure Island_'s Mr. Arrow and "I was anticipating your whim, sir"?)

In any event, I think it's safe to say that the series not having these weak episodes would have made the series stronger.  What form that would take, I don't know; more neutral assessment of the scripts to turn into episodes, more guidance on specifics for the droid scripts, more scripts to choose from, more interaction on the script development process, fewer arcs per season....As has been pointed out there are few details about the production that we know, and getting into specifics more than one step away from them is less "conjectural" and more "theoretical".




> If nothing else, I have to give this arc credit for trying something different with the droids in that it actually gave them a legitimate mission objective for the arc beyond "dont die."


Indeed, _A Sunny Day in the Void_ and _Missing in Action_ are pretty good episodes.  The arc is still the weakest this season, but that's more because of the competition it has to face.

----------


## Keltest

> That's kind of what I've been thinking.  If making a good droid episode is exceedingly difficult and routinely failing, the question is why those scripts keep getting made into episodes....Now I don't think that's because George Lucas mandated "droid episodes each season, no matter how bad"; I find it far more likely he simply liked the droids a lot and viewed the episodes more favorably as a result, consciously or otherwise.  (Or I guess it could be some other member of the production team deciding that's what George would want, like _Muppet Treasure Island_'s Mr. Arrow and "I was anticipating your whim, sir"?)
> 
> In any event, I think it's safe to say that the series not having these weak episodes would have made the series stronger.  What form that would take, I don't know; more neutral assessment of the scripts to turn into episodes, more guidance on specifics for the droid scripts, more scripts to choose from, more interaction on the script development process, fewer arcs per season....As has been pointed out there are few details about the production that we know, and getting into specifics more than one step away from them is less "conjectural" and more "theoretical".
> 
> Indeed, _A Sunny Day in the Void_ and _Missing in Action_ are pretty good episodes.  The arc is still the weakest this season, but that's more because of the competition it has to face.


It does make you wonder, if these are the episodes that we actually got, what were some of the propositions that got cut? More episodes with C-3PO as a main character?

----------


## Mechalich

> It does make you wonder, if these are the episodes that we actually got, what were some of the propositions that got cut? More episodes with C-3PO as a main character?


It's possible that some episodes were cut for technical, rather than story, reasons. TCW, especially in the earlier seasons, was produced on a distinctly less than limitless budget and was also constrained by what the animators were actually capable of making happen. They got consistently better over time, which is why each season looks better than the last, but there were still clearly limits. I wouldn't be surprised if an arc or two each season ended up loosely scripted but dropped at the test stage because the animators came back and said 'this sounds awesome, but we can't make any promises.'

----------


## Jasdoif

> It does make you wonder, if these are the episodes that we actually got, what were some of the propositions that got cut? More episodes with C-3PO as a main character?


More episodes with Ziro ("From Hero to Ziro")?  Padme gets diplomatically stuck representing the Republic in a wacky overwrought culinary competition on an Ithorian herdship ("The Land Before Thyme")?  Baron Papanoida having lunch with Chancellor Palpatine in Dex's Diner ("When Pappy Met Palpy")?

----------


## Keltest

> More episodes with Ziro ("From Hero to Ziro")?  Padme gets diplomatically stuck representing the Republic in a wacky overwrought culinary competition on an Ithorian herdship ("The Land Before Thyme")?  Baron Papanoida having lunch with Chancellor Palpatine in Dex's Diner ("When Pappy Met Palpy")?


That third one could be interesting...

----------


## Jasdoif

> Baron Papanoida having lunch with Chancellor Palpatine in Dex's Diner ("When Pappy Met Palpy")?





> That third one could be interesting...


It'd certainly have potential, especially if it involved shifting into the _Farscape_ episode that brought the base concept to my mind; but if the plot specifically tied into being set at Dex's Diner, you might have balking at creating such a specific 3D set, the sort of thing Mechalich mentioned....Although now that I type that, the place at the beginning of _Brothers_ seems *awfully* similar....

----------


## Sapphire Guard

> There is. Dave Filoni stated Lucas specifically wanted those arcs in every season, and did not say Lucas specifically wanted other arcs in every season.


Incorrect, the quote days he wanted a droids arc, a politics arc, and a Jedi arc.

Are the droids episodes so bad, or are they just skewed at a younger audience? They veer more towards the silliness and slapstick, for sure. The premises tend toward sillliness, but they're fairly clearly designed to be. Evil plans is designed to be what it is. R2 come home is decent if I remember correctly, can't remember what happens in Mercy Mission. Duel of the Droids is the one with the gold traitor r2 unit, I think it was decent but can't remember.

It's just interesting that the assumptions of negative things are always attributed to George, and the equally supported by the little information we have assumptions of positive things are not. No one ever says 'These writers were so elevated by being given good material.'

Chris Collins, assuming it's the same one, has a pretty glittering career, (_The Wire the Sopranos, John Wick_ He wrote the Onderon Arc, and several Maul episodes.

Brent Friedman wrote this arc, the Deception arc, and a Season 7 arc. Maybe they're just different because they're different people? Deception is fairly shaky all the way through.

Yes, it does continue with Disney, it's why Kathleen Kennedy is held responsible for the sequels but not given credit for Mando for some reason. But Mando and Rebels have a lot of similarities (ALL THE REFERENCES! ALL OF THEM!), even after George is no longer involved. Perhaps he's not the common thread here.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Are the droids episodes so bad, or are they just skewed at a younger audience? They veer more towards the silliness and slapstick, for sure. The premises tend toward sillliness, but they're fairly clearly designed to be.


You keep saying stuff like this; and I keep thinking how the _Tiny Toon Adventures_ episode _A Quack in the Quarks_, with its silly and slapstick framing over its similarly silly and slapstick blatant parody of _A New Hope_, was far more cohesive with its own plot elements than _Nomad Droids_ is.  "Skewed at a younger audience" does not necessitate "garbage that won't be accepted by an older audience".

----------


## Fyraltari

> You keep saying stuff like this; and I keep thinking how the _Tiny Toon Adventures_ episode _A Quack in the Quarks_, with its silly and slapstick framing over its similarly silly and slapstick blatant parody of _A New Hope_, was far more cohesive with its own plot elements than _Nomad Droids_ is.  "Skewed at a younger audience" does not necessitate "garbage that won't be accepted by an older audience".


Exactly. Other example: all of _Looney Toons_.

----------


## Keltest

> Exactly. Other example: all of _Looney Toons_.


Lets be fair here, Looney Toons is A: A pretty high bar to meet, period, and B: specifically aimed at older audiences as well as their kids. I dont know if I would say they could be directly compared like that, if theyre trying to do different things.

----------


## Fyraltari

*season 5, Episode 13: Point of no Return*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The squad's shuttle is approaching the cruiser and Gascon auto-congratulates on a succesfull mission. He asks R2 to call the ship's captain and to schedule a meal (he says he doesn't eat bantha, are thos common outsid eof Tattoine?) but R2 can't make contact with the cruiser and all the doors leading from the trench in the middle of the cruiser to the actual landing bays are closed, which gives WAC a mandatory bad feeling about this. Gascon thinks they're being paranoid and refuses to consider anything but a hero's welcome and his promotion to P1 brigadier (P1?). They leave the shuttle and head to the door at the end of the trench. Aren't they still outside the ship? they haven't passed any forcefield or sas, how can Gascon breath and talk normally? Gascon's possible rationalization for why nobody's there and all the blast doors are shut don't sound convincing even to his own ears.

Anyway, they make their way to the bridge where a bunch of clones in Navy uniform are going about their business, completely oblivious to their presence. And for good reason, they're all just holograms (ones without sound even. That said, they're among the most realistic holograms of all of Star Wars). As they're wondering just what is going on, the ship jumps to hyperspace. Which is due to the presence of an actual crew: battle droids (plus one tactician) all inside the err, crew pits? You know, those below-floor-level stations they have for some reason. The Republicans leg it and end up running into the cargo bay control area where a couple of B1s with blue markers (I think that's Navy?) just delivered "the detonator". The astromechs take them out and puppet one of them to tell their pursuers that the "the intruders went that way". Huh, quick thinking.

Gascon concludes the ship's been hijacked by Separatist. R2 points the detonator out, remarking it doesn't belong there. WAC says it's not republic tech, unless the manufacturing standards have been lowered. I wonder if the CIS flag on each side of it helped with that assessment. R2 informs them that it is in fact a bomb. Gascon briefly panics until R2 explains that he meant the entire ship was a bomb. Gascon asks how that's possible. Aaaaand the cargo bay doors open, showing them to be filled with barrels of ridonium.  "Mother of Quath, says Gascon (the hell is Quath?), there must be enough ridonium in here to blow up the entire Republic fleet." Turns out, they had the wrong fire ship. The colonel wants out of this ship: he has no order to stop Separatist piracy or disarm massive bombs. The others disagree but he orders them to evacuate with him. What was all that you said last episode about a soldier's duty, Meebur? R2 points out they can't leave until they're out of hyperspace anyway and WAC adds that at this point the ship is probably going to explode.

They leave the cargo control area, except for R2 who spots a rabbit droid spying on them and takes her prisoner. They meet up with the squad at the shuttle and the droid introduces herself as BNI-393, an LVP servant droid, nicknamed "Bunny" (cute. Wait, why isn't she called LVP-393? R2-D2 is an R2 unit). She explains that her master was killed when the droids took the ship over and she was spying on them to make sure they were trustworthy and she was hoping to abandon ship with them. Herself and a few others. Meanwhile the tactician droid is informed the intruders are still not found, so he tasks a buzz droid to seek and destroy them. Bunny's friends hid inside the squad's shuttle. They turn out to be two gonk droids, one mouse droid and one other droid whose type I don't know the name. Square base, tower-like body, two arms and two WALL-E like eyes? Gascon is a bit disappointed. Bunny explains that they didn't escape because none of them can pilot. She has no idea what the separatists are up to, but she did steal the coordinates of their target. A space station in the Corita system. Gascon who somehow thought they only wanted to blow the one ship (why?) is distressed by this: that is the site of a Republic's strategy conference. he knows because he's just finished a report for that very conference. Present will be officers from all over the Republic as well as the Jedi Council (he says Council, but judging from the rest of the episode I think he means representative).

Gascon decides they have to intervene. Warning the Republic isn't feasible, Bunny explains the Separatists cut all transmissions from this ship. And that's tge point where they spot the buzz droid who has been listening to the entire conversation. They run after him with R2 unleashing bolt after bolt of lightning (couldn't he have done that, last episode?) with little effect. The buzz leads them to a gun deck where a few hundreds of his colleagues are waiting in ambush. Mandatory "It's a trap!" R2 sprays a circle of oil around the republicans and lights it on fire with his thrusters, but that won't save them for long. BZ has an idea, though: opening the airlock. (Why does the gun deck have an airlock?) He runs towards it through the mass of buzz droids and opens it. WAC yells to everyone to magnetize their feet, which they do just in time. Except for BZ who is sucked out of the room and into (hyper?-)space with all the buzz droids. Well, I guess that his short term amnesia will make his endless drifting into space somewhat more bearable than it would otherwise have been for a machine who won't die until its batteries run out. R2 flies to the airlock and closes it. Gascon makes a short eulogy for BZ, adressing him as "soldier". He admits he didn't believe in the squad originally, but now recognized that after all they've been through, they make an excellent team. BZ sacrificed himself for them, like a good soldier, and the only way to honour it is to foil the separatist plot. I like that, it's a good moment.

On the bridge, the tactical droid is informed that not only have the buzz droids not reported in, their signal has vanished. He concludes they've failed and orders for the intruders to be found. Meanwhile, The squad is headed back to the shuttle carrying one of the gonk droids who has been severely injured by the buzz droids (the other doesn't seem to followed the pursuit). Gascon wants R2 to go back to the detonator and program a premature explosion while the others make a distraction on their way to the shuttle. Hopefully he reaches them in time to leave the cruiser before it explodes. A few B1s stumble upon them just after R2 leaves and open fire. they flee, but the "WALL-E" droid isn't fast enough and blaster shot straights up beheads him. And at that moment, the cruiser leaves hyperspace and heads towards the space station and no less than eleven more cruisers. Damn, that's  a big fleet. The tactical orders ramming speed and heads up to the detonator.

On the station, Anakin complains to Obi-Wan about how boring these conferences are. Kenobi tells him to enjoy his chance to raise all his objections to military protocols. I think his main one is that there's any, frankly. Obi-wan spots the newly arrived cruiser and goes to inform Windu the last ship they expected is there. Anakin however wonders about the excessive speed that ship is moving toward them at. the squad make sit to the shuttle, at the same time as a platoon of B1s. Gascon and C4 (his replacement ride since the loss of BZ) go to distract them while the others run for it. R2 reaches the cargo control area just as the tactical finishes activating the detonator's countdown. While attempting to punch him, the Separatist gloats that he's too late: the detonation sequence can't be stopped. C4 flies Gascon in view of the control area where they see the fight inside, so he decides to delay their leaving as long as possible. Back on the station, tarkin (now an admiral, according to the credits) say they can't reach anyone on the ship and Anakin wishes for R2 to be there. Why? What makes you think they'd answer if he was calling? Inside the shuttle, Gascon wants for his group to charge through the separatists to rescue R2, as he refuses to leave anyone behind. Unfortunately, WAC was in the cockpit and is unaware R2 isn't with them so he takes off. The hell, WAC? You knew R2 wasn't with the main group why are you just assuming he's back? R2 manages to knock the tactical droid aside and triggers the explosion just as the Jedi realize what's happening. The explosion is really nice-looking with various colors and all. It's too far away to directly damage the station (in space there's no air to carry a blast wave, so that's uncharacteristically realistic) but debris is sent towards the fleet making minor damage. And triggering the explosion of a particularly unfortunate cruiser. Gascon call the station and tells Anakin that R2 just sacrificed himself to save them all. Oh no, not R2. I am so worried about him. Could he really be dead? Anakin orders for salvage teals to comb the debris immediately and they do find a mostly intact R2.

Later, Anakin congratulates R2, as his repairs are being finished, calling him a big hero, and tells him the squad is here to see him. Meebur admits to being a map-reader with little field experience but R2 is the bravest droid he's ever met and he'd be glad to serve with him again at any time. Which goes for the whole squad, actually. WAC is very glad to hear that, because they've been assigned to the same platoon and will be working together for the rest of the war. Gascon can't keep his poker face up and starts crying in despair at the news. Oh, come on!


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Wait, if the separatists weren't going to reply to the Republic's hailing, what was the point of the holograms, then?

A platoon is about twenty men lead by a lieutenant, right? Are they demoting Gascon for saving their bacon, instead of promoting him? And does that mean that R2 is no longer Anakin's personal astromech? I thought he was just loaned for the mission.

All in all, that was the best episode of the arc.  the comedy was alright, the action was good and the characters worked well together. I really like the twist about the fire-ship. The episode manged its emotionnal side pretty well, too, with Gascon's eulogy of BZ being a pretty nice contrast to him wanting to leave the droid for dead in _Secret Weapons_. I wish they had linked his not turning his magnets on in time with his lobotomy, though. That'd have made Gascon indirectly responsible for his death. I also think R2 shouldn't have been the one to trigger the bomb. Knowing he'll make it kind of robs the moment of its intensity. If it had been C4 for example and Gascon, not Anakin, were the one to order a search and rescue I think that would have flown much better.

The one real complaint I have is the joke at the end. This entire arc is about Gascon learning to value the droids (and also WAC starting to respect him). Having him be insincere abput wanting to work with them again really undercuts that and makes it seem like a huge waste of time.


Next up: *Eminence*. Ah, I think I've heard of this. Back with Maul, aren't we?

----------


## Taevyr

> Next up: *Eminence*. Ah, I think I've heard of this. Back with Maul, aren't we?



Strap in, you're heading into some real good ones now.

----------


## pendell

> A platoon is about twenty men lead by a lieutenant, right?


About 20-40. As I recall, traditional military structure is built in twos or threes.   Bear in mind all this is from memory. 

A fire team is four individuals. 
A squad is two fire teams plus a sergeant and an assistant (10)
A platoon is 2-4 squads.  
A company is 2-3 platoons led by a captain and a small headquarters group.  The most traditional is to have a single captain commanding, assisted by a first and second lieutenant in charge of the platoons.  

This first-second pattern follows all the way up.  A colonel of a regiment has a lieutenant-colonel and a major who command the battalions, each battalion made up of companies plus some assets directly at the battalion level.  

A general has a lieutenant-general and a major-general, again, first and second assistants.  Traditionally, they would command divisions composed of regiments. Since WW1 we have brigade-sized formations which are super-regiments plus more organic assets to compose those divisions. The divisions comprise corps ("bodies") and the corps comprise the army. 

And at the head of the whole shebang is the field marshal, a rank created for the king or someone fulfilling his/her role on the battle field. 

So all the way up and all the way down the chain, everyone directly supervises somewhere in the neighbor hood of 2-4 assets and 5-10 direct subordinates. That way no single human is overloaded with the details and responsibilities of commanding such a vast organization. 

Gascon's a  Colonel , isn't he? If so, a platoon is well under the responsibilities of his rank. But then,  the GFFA seems to put higher-ranked people in charge of exceptionally hazardous or unusual missions. Consider Return of the Jedi: To lead an infiltration squad on Endor which is less than 20 they gave Han the rank of General.  And every Jedi has the rank of General despite doing nothing on-screen except wave their swords and charge at droids; I suppose it's a courtesy rank so clones can take their orders without embarrassment. 

Other explanations .. Perhaps whatever army Gascon was in before Republic service was a local militia which over-promoted its officers. In the US we had state militias overrun with colonels and generals who had no commands back in the 19th century.  Or perhaps he's been given the rank so that he and his platoon will not immediately come under the command of the first clone officer who encounters them.  

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Keltest

Gascon is described as a "map reader" which is to say he doesnt typically lead troops in the field. He was chosen for his small size, not necessarily his suitability for the mission. He may well be entirely competent at his actual job in the army.

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## McNum

And so you pass The Point of No Return. An episode aptly named for a different reason that its original intent. Because if you make it past the Point of No Return, you're set straight for the end.

Things will be going down Soon.

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## Fyraltari

> About 20-40. As I recall, traditional military structure is built in twos or threes.   Bear in mind all this is from memory. 
> 
> A fire team is four individuals. 
> A squad is two fire teams plus a sergeant and an assistant (10)
> A platoon is 2-4 squads.  
> A company is 2-3 platoons led by a captain and a small headquarters group.  The most traditional is to have a single captain commanding, assisted by a first and second lieutenant in charge of the platoons.  
> 
> This first-second pattern follows all the way up.  A colonel of a regiment has a lieutenant-colonel and a major who command the battalions, each battalion made up of companies plus some assets directly at the battalion level.  
> 
> ...


Of course, nowhere is it written that the GFFA abides by real-world military structure, but the ranks used and the way they're used (such as "captain" being higher rank than "commander" something that seriously tripped me up) indicates that they're loosely following the American structure. Gascon's a colonel, but he seemed confident this mission would earn him a promotion to brigadier general, assuming that wasn't wishful thinking, he should get his promotion given that he's succeeded in his mission _and_ saved the Republic's High Command from a beheading strike. which make him being assigned to a platoon that much weirder.




> Gascon is described as a "map reader" which is to say he doesnt typically lead troops in the field. He was chosen for his small size, not necessarily his suitability for the mission. He may well be entirely competent at his actual job in the army.


His competency as a data analyst isn't what's being questioned here, though. It's why, now that the mission is over, he would be given a permanent assignment well under his rank.



> And so you pass The Point of No Return. An episode aptly named for a different reason that its original intent. Because if you make it past the Point of No Return, you're set straight for the end.
> 
> Things will be going down Soon.


Huh, ominous?

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## Grim Portent

> Of course, nowhere is it written that the GFFA abides by real-world military structure, but the ranks used and the way they're used (such as "captain" being higher rank than "commander" something that seriously tripped me up) indicates that they're loosely following the American structure. Gascon's a colonel, but he seemed confident this mission would earn him a promotion to brigadier general, assuming that wasn't wishful thinking, he should get his promotion given that he's succeeded in his mission _and_ saved the Republic's High Command from a beheading strike. which make him being assigned to a platoon that much weirder.


Him being assigned to lead the droids in future missions is essentially making him a spec-ops officer of some sort, and perhaps spec-officers of higher than normal rank command elite platoons instead of larger divisions of normal troopers, but how the GAR structure handles things is not something I know in any detail. The detailed explanation probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense anyway, it'll be cludged together from multiple armies in more than one time period to reflect different types of military genre fiction with only a vague amount of cohesion. The use of Bigadier General/Platoon/Colonel are all just throw away military words to set the tone of a piece of nebuous genre fiction.


That and it was WAC who said platoon wasn't it? It's quite possible he just used the wrong term, he's not the brightest droid after all. It's possible what he was told is he was assigned to Gascon's _command_ but doesn't know what a Brigadier General* actually leads and just called it a platoon.


*To my knowledge there is no explanation for what a Bigadier General actually does in the GAR, unlike some of the more commonly used ranks like captain or commander. It's probably similar to the BG of the US, which is just a low ranking general, in practice I have no idea what duties/authority comes with the rank.

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## Fyraltari

Being in command of a brigade seems like the most likely answer.

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## Grim Portent

> Being in command of a brigade seems like the most likely answer.


Maybe, but what a brigade even is in Star Wars seems to vary. A walker group of about 20 was referred to as a tank brigade, the entire special forces is referred to as one brigade, Jedi Commanders lead brigades of clones and in the Empire a Colonel Brenna led a brigade. Clone children are also organised into a brigade.

Some of the other military arrangements are more clearly defined, regiments, companies, battalions and such to the point that I could probably work out concrete numbers for some deployments from them, but brigade seems pretty vague and refers to anything from tiny commands to absolutely massive ones.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Some of the other military arrangements are more clearly defined, regiments, companies, battalions and such to the point that I could probably work out concrete numbers for some deployments from them,

----------


## pendell

> Maybe, but what a brigade even is in Star Wars seems to vary. A walker group of about 20 was referred to as a tank brigade, the entire special forces is referred to as one brigade, Jedi Commanders lead brigades of clones and in the Empire a Colonel Brenna led a brigade. Clone children are also organised into a brigade.
> 
> Some of the other military arrangements are more clearly defined, regiments, companies, battalions and such to the point that I could probably work out concrete numbers for some deployments from them, but brigade seems pretty vague and refers to anything from tiny commands to absolutely massive ones.


In the real world, a brigade refers to an organization of multiple battalions  three to six , several thousand people.  But this doesn't mean the number of vehicles are in the thousands -- it's because an armored brigade isn't just the vehicles and their crews, but the infantry which support the tanks,  the trucks that supply the fuel for the tanks, the headquarters staff, the medical support, field engineering, on and on and on.  As a rule of thumb, for every one soldier actually in combat it takes at least one, maybe several, support personnel to make it possible for him/her to be there.  

In the real world, a brigade might contain a hundred tanks -- but a tank is a much less complex mechanism than an AT-AT walker.  An AT-AT crew itself has some 50 people -- the commander, two drivers, an engineer, a loadmaster, and up to 40 troops in their compartment.    So if an AT-AT brigade consists of a battalion or two of AT-ATs, at least 1 battalion of AT-ST scouts, and a battalion or two of  heavy weapons  , it's not that far off a modern army's expected strength.  We can make up the difference by assuming the vehicles are much more complex and sophisticated than our world's equipment, and therefore additional personnel are needed to maintain them. 

A  special operations brigade  in the real world also consists of about 4 battalions, but of course it will never fight as as single unit; it's an administrative umbrella for the smaller units which are sent all around the world on their various tasks. There is one special forces brigade in Star Wars but it's for the entire Republic; it's not unreasonable that the elite commandoes and Jedi who support them would only be in the few hundreds to few thousands range, and thus fit into a single brigade on the TO&E, though again it would never fight as a single unit, but would detach out small teams in penny packets on an as-needed basis all over the galaxy. 

So it appears to me that Star Wars TO&E is in the same order of magnitude as real-world units, with the difference that they tend to over-promote their officers and send out colonels and generals to do jobs which would be something a captain would do in ours.  

I can well imagine sending out a colonel on a special forces job if the mission was vital enough , and this one, to stop a decapitation strike on the Republic leadership, was.  If he's going to remain in command of a single platoon as a permanent assignment, however, that is quite odd. It implies his rank is more an honorary title given by a local militia or his planetary defense force than a regular GAR commission, much like those given out by our  state of Kentucky .  I'd be curious what his permanent rank is in the GAR, or if he even exists in their structure at all. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Grim Portent

He certainly considers himself part of the GAR, so I'd assume he was folded into them from his previous career. Given his rank and job I'd assume he was part of a system level navy/army rather than the Republic Security Bureau, tactical analysis officers don't seem pertinent to the RSB. IIRC Tarkin and several others inherited their positions from their previous local military service,* being folded into the GAR because no one wanted the clones to lead themselves and qualified officers were otherwise in short supply. Gascon would presumably be one such person.


*Fighting pirates, local civil wars, the odd interplanetary war and so on. Tarkin's backstory usually has him using brute force and terror tactics to oppress his enemy before becoming part of the GAR, though I think his previous rank has changed over the years.

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## Peelee

> An AT-AT crew itself has some 50 people -- the commander, two drivers, an engineer, a loadmaster, and up to 40 troops in their compartment.


That's a crew of 4-5. Payload ain't crew.

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## Keltest

> That's a crew of 4-5. Payload ain't crew.


I dont know how accurate that is in a military context.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Originally Posted by Peelee
> 
> 
> That's a crew of 4-5. Payload ain't crew.
> 
> 
> I dont know how accurate that is in a military context.


Why is that?  I'd have guessed the concept of "people who operate the vehicle" would be important enough that it'd *need* to be accurate in a military context....

----------


## Mechalich

> So it appears to me that Star Wars TO&E is in the same order of magnitude as real-world units, with the difference that they tend to over-promote their officers and send out colonels and generals to do jobs which would be something a captain would do in ours.


I think this is also partly a Clone Wars thing and reflects the tendency of the Jedi to move up and down the command chain and to go into battle leading their own special operations from the front. For example, Anakin commanded the 501st legion, and the GAR's unit structure indicates a Legion contained 9216 combat troopers (with presumably a significant number of support personnel and droids on top of that), but Anakin regularly charges into battle supported by units no larger than a platoon of 36 troopers. 

Consequently, any non-Clone officer who was expected to be able to operate with any operational independence from the Jedi needed a relatively high rank even if they were not expected to actually command a large unit. There may also have been a tendency to offer high-level ranks 'on paper' for non-clone officers so that they were placed 'above' the various clone officers. A Clone Marshal Commander, the highest clone rank, exercised command of a corps - 4 legions or nearly 40,000 troopers. I suspect there was considerable hesitancy within Republic high command to place non-clone officers beneath clones in the hierarchy, and a tendency of over-promotion resulted. 




> Why is that? I'd have guessed the concept of "people who operate the vehicle" would be important enough that it'd need to be accurate in a military context....


It depends upon unit organization principles, specifically if the vehicle is part of a vehicular unit or an infantry unit on the org chart. Meaning, does it carry infantry from time to time, or is it part of the infantry. A tank, for example, may carry infantry - plenty of film of soldiers riding on tanks out there - but it's assigned to a tank unit, often an Armored Cavalry regiment or something similar. By contrast an armored personnel carrier would be part of a mechanized infantry unit and the crew would be integrated combined arms and fight alongside with the infantry it carries into battle. An AT-AT, which after all, is a transport, would appear to be the latter and be considered part of infantry units. 

There is a slight twist in that the Empire had specialty infantry only forces - the Stormtroopers - who did not maintain any vehicular support of their own and relied on army and navy resources to carry them to the area of operations. That's why at Hoth and Endor the walker crew wear army uniforms, not stormtrooper armor.

----------


## pendell

> It depends upon unit organization principles, specifically if the vehicle is part of a vehicular unit or an infantry unit on the org chart. Meaning, does it carry infantry from time to time, or is it part of the infantry. A tank, for example, may carry infantry - plenty of film of soldiers riding on tanks out there - but it's assigned to a tank unit, often an Armored Cavalry regiment or something similar. By contrast an armored personnel carrier would be part of a mechanized infantry unit and the crew would be integrated combined arms and fight alongside with the infantry it carries into battle. An AT-AT, which after all, is a transport, would appear to be the latter and be considered part of infantry units. 
> 
> There is a slight twist in that the Empire had specialty infantry only forces - the Stormtroopers - who did not maintain any vehicular support of their own and relied on army and navy resources to carry them to the area of operations. That's why at Hoth and Endor the walker crew wear army uniforms, not stormtrooper armor.


I agree with your assessment. In real-world  mechanized infantry , while the troops aboard the IFV are not considered crew they ARE on the TO&E of the company/brigade/division that the IFVS are assigned to. So if the GFFA is analogous, an AT-AT brigade would consist not just of the AT-AT vehicles themselves but also the infantry assigned to ride them into battle, because they are an integral part of the combat strength of the formation.    Pushing the real-world analogy further, you would expect them to also have other weapons systems for scout and heavy weapons operations in support of the walkers which comprise the main effort, as well as a support organization to supply the combat crews with everything they need to live, maintain their vehicles, and fight.  That easily scales up into the thousands of people or droids even if there's only 20 AT-ATs in the formation.  

The sight of soldiers riding tanks into battle in WWII was an initial ad-hoc solution to the problem mechanized infantry solves in the modern world: To wit, tanks are fast but it's very hard to see out of the blasted things; tiny vision blocks means they have enough trouble seeing the ground in front of them. By themselves, it's possible for them to be blindsided by infantry carrying satchel charges (in WWII) or AT rockets in the modern world.   Heck , in WWII if you could get close enough to a tank you could do  this : Actually run up on the after hatch, use an _axe_ of all things to break into the engine compartment, toss in a grenade and immobilize the vehicle. Of course, anybody trying this would be signing their own death warrant , but those were desperate times.  

So you need infantry, both to scout out the terrain ahead and find any inconvenient AT teams armed with rockets or high-caliber direct fire artillery waiting to greet the tank, and also to discourage 'heroes' who are tired of living.     

Problem with infantry is that, well, infantry get where they're going by walking.  It's very hard to keep up with a tank zipping along at 50KM/h on foot even if you're an olympic runner, and olympic runners wear nothing but clothing, they don't hump all the gear a modern soldier is expected to carry.

So the solution at first was to have the soldiers ride the tanks into battle.  The later solution was a specialized vehicle, the IFV, which could carry infantry at the same speed of the tank. The idea is the infantry rides inside until they reach the combat zone , at which point they dismount while the IFV follows behind; the infantry finds the enemy, the IFVs then hits them with cannon or missiles; it's a terrific synergy.  

The AT-AT seems to have been designed with the same thing in mind, with the exception an AT-AT carries a full platoon of infantry into combat, not just a squad.   And they still need them; Luke Skywalker would have had a hard time zipping up to a walker and throwing a grenade in if the walker's snowtroopers had already been on the ground to meet him first; he didn't know how to use a lightsaber all that well at that point; he'd have died or been captured.  

If I recall, the reason that didn't happen is because the troops were still riding the walker at that point -- it was only about 5-10 minutes later in the film that De Veers gave the order "all troops debark for ground assault".   

So mechanized infantry tactics are a thing in star wars -- in fact  there don't really seem to be such a thing as a "tank" in our sense, since as described the AT-ATs more closely equate to the modern BMP or Bradley in terms of tactics, though their armour, able to resist anything Echo Base could throw at them from the front, is definitely tank-quality in their universe.  They have mechanized infantry formations, and until proven otherwise I will assume that the infantry and vehicles are both in the same TO&E. 

Also, just because I'm being pedantic and I don't often get to  talk about this, I'd point out that an APC is different from an IFV. An  APC  is technically _motorized_ infantry rather than _mechanized_ because the track isn't supposed to follow the infantry into battle and support them; it's job is to be a "battle taxi", a glorified school bus, which drives the kids to their job but afterwards leaves them to get on with it. You can tell because it's got just the one dinky machine gun on top for self-defense.  An IFV like the  BMP-3, by contrast, carries a 100MM gun or an autocannon; it doesn't just bring the troops to the battle line, it also supports them in the fight and is an integral part of their combat tactics.  

I also note that Veers transmits to Vader in the closing stages of the battle -- "I have reached the main power generators; you may start your landing".   This implies Vader was not riding in the AT-ATs with the assault troops to enter Echo Base;  he and his escorts (presumably 501st) staged a separate landing directly from orbit onto the base after the mechanized forces had opened the shield gate.  That also accounts for the different uniforms; there are multiple fighting formations from different service branches present, just as if Marines and Army were on the same battlefield today.  

That's what happens, I suppose, when you try to fight the Empire with conventional forces as opposed to little furballs wielding sticks and stones  :Small Amused: 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Keltest

As far as tanks in Star Wars go, they actually do exist. They show up more in the old EU sources and IIRC one shows up in Rogue One. But they had a fairly dedicated role in the old Star Wars RTS game Empire at War, which is how I remember them the strongest. Its mentioned off hand that Hoth is actually so cold that vehicles like the airspeeders were having trouble being adapted for it, so its possible thats why none were deployed along the AT-ATs.

----------


## pendell

> They show up more in the old EU sources and IIRC one shows up in Rogue One.


They show up in Rogue One? I am obsessive about that show but I don't recall a tank -- just those big cargo transports which are predecessors to the AT-AT.    Do you remember when we see it? 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Keltest

> They show up in Rogue One? I am obsessive about that show but I don't recall a tank -- just those big cargo transports which are predecessors to the AT-AT.    Do you remember when we see it? 
> 
> Respectfully, 
> 
> Brian P.


Nope! I could be misremembering.

----------


## Peelee

> They show up in Rogue One? I am obsessive about that show


Show?  :Small Confused: 



> but I don't recall a tank -- just those big cargo transports which are predecessors to the AT-AT.


Not a predecessor, a variant. The AT-ACT was a larger version of the AT-AT specializing in cargo transport.

----------


## Jasdoif

> In real-world  mechanized infantry , while the troops aboard the IFV are not considered crew they ARE on the TO&E of the company/brigade/division that the IFVS are assigned to.


This sounds remarkably like confirmation of Peelee's "payload ain't crew" comment, so maybe I'm getting stuck on a terminology thing....Are there specific terms for "personnel belonging to the same unit" for larger units (like how "squadmates" is used with a squad)?




> As far as tanks in Star Wars go, they actually do exist. They show up more in the old EU sources and IIRC one shows up in Rogue One. But they had a fairly dedicated role in the old Star Wars RTS game Empire at War, which is how I remember them the strongest. Its mentioned off hand that Hoth is actually so cold that vehicles like the airspeeders were having trouble being adapted for it, so its possible thats why none were deployed along the AT-ATs.


Also, I think the Trade Federation used AATs in _Phantom Menace_ (and speaking of old Star Wars RTS games, _Galactic Battlegrounds_).

----------


## pendell

> Show?


Movie, sorry.  Although, come to think of it, is has its own prequel show now -- Andor, I believe. Supposed to be pretty good. 




> This sounds remarkably like confirmation of Peelee's "payload ain't crew" comment, so maybe I'm getting stuck on a terminology thing....Are there specific terms for "personnel belonging to the same unit" for larger units (like how "squadmates" is used with a squad)?


I'm acknowledging Peelee's comment as correct -- while still pointing out that while payload is separate from crew as far as the vehicle goes they're still part of the same fighting unit.   A mechanized infantry company contains both the vehicles and the infantry riding in them, although the infantry aren't "crew" in the way the driver is. While the two normally travel together you _could_ deploy the infantry dismounted apart from their vehicle, and you could dispatch the vehicle without its complement of infantry. But that's not the normal use case.  

I'd appeal to someone active duty to confirm or deny whether infantry are assigned to a _specific_ IFV, or if they ride whatever track is available.  Being a contractor, I never rode one myself, though I had to learn a bit about them, as you can tell. 

ETA:



> The tank wasn't in the climactic battle scene on Scarif: it was in the marketplace shootout on Jedha.
> 
> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/TX-...t_assault_tank


Thank you. 


Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Dargaron

> They show up in Rogue One? I am obsessive about that show but I don't recall a tank -- just those big cargo transports which are predecessors to the AT-AT.    Do you remember when we see it? 
> 
> Respectfully, 
> 
> Brian P.


The tank wasn't in the climactic battle scene on Scarif: it was in the marketplace shootout on Jedha.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/TX-...t_assault_tank

Re Star Wars tanks: I vaguely remember reading in one of the Essential Guides to Vehicles that walkers like AT-ATs and AT-STs weren't _actually_ supposed to be the Empire's standard tanks, but were used on planets/theatres where repulsorlift vehicles couldn't function (the examples given were planets with unusual gravity/magnetic fields, or in areas of particularly uneven terrain.)

But we never _see_ these repulsorlift tanks in movies, so whenever a new piece of Star Wars media gets made, authors/game devs throw in AT-ATs/AT-STs because they're iconic, and they gradually became _the_ default Imperial vehicles.

----------


## Peelee

> Movie, sorry.  Although, come to think of it, is has its own prequel show now -- Andor, I believe. Supposed to be pretty good.


It is right up there among the best Star Wars content there is, and I cannot recommend checking it out highly enough. I was, incredibly apathetic to it from announcement to the initial release and have been an enormous cheerleader for it since I saw it.

----------


## Fyraltari

> It is right up there among the best Star Wars content there is.


That's high praise, probably.

----------


## Peelee

> That's high praise, probably.


Definitely. It is _exceedingly_ good.

----------


## Mechalich

Andor takes advantage of a precise match between story and setting. It's a classic thriller set during a period of time - the late Dark Times, with the Empire at the height of its power - that is incredibly well-suited for that kind of story. Tony Gilroy, Andor's showrunner, also happens to be really, really good at this kind of story. It is, so far, very good.

TCW can't take advantage of this sort of synergy nearly as effectively. It's set during a war that is both brutal and pointless and where victory is impossible, but because of a combination of factors including ratings, short episodes, and being a digitally animated series (digital animation is inherently sleek and clean, making it difficult to go gritty), and the jokey presentation of the CIS forces in the PT, it struggles to really bring this home much of the time. Now, many of the best arcs in the series, lean into the horrors of the war and how it tests the convictions of various characters, notably Ahsoka, Ventress, the clones of Delta Squad, and Master Yoda. This is actually a commonality of Clone Wars based EU material generally, as much of the best Legends material, such as the Battle of Jabiim in the Republic comics run, also leaned heavily into the war's thematic darkness. 

Star Wars, because its foundations are so archetypical and broad, is an incredibly flexible setting. It is well-matched to a wide variety of stories with many different styles and themes, but it can't do all of them in the same place or time.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Definitely. It is _exceedingly_ good.


I was making a _Doctor Who_ reference. ("You're a beautiful woman, probably.")

Is the whole thing out?

----------


## Peelee

> I was making a _Doctor Who_ reference. ("You're a beautiful woman, probably.")
> 
> Is the whole thing out?


Seven of the twelve episodes are out, release every Wednesday at midnight California time.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Seven of the twelve episodes are out, release every Wednesday at midnight California time.


Well, I'd be interested to know your opinion once it's done, as I promised myself I ain't watching another _Star Wars_ show unless assured it is excellent.

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## Peelee

> Well, I'd be interested to know your opinion once it's done, as I promised myself I ain't watching another _Star Wars_ show unless assured it is excellent.


For what is worth, I have held this opinion since the first tense date when they dropped the first three episodes, and each successive episode has only been better.pl

That being said, I understand your position

----------


## Fyraltari

*Sesaon 5, Episode 14: Eminence*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

We open up soon after the first episode of the season. The Oppress brothers are still in their escape pod, drifting through "uncharted space". Shouldn't they be in Florum's orbit, or are the very least in the same solar system? Or is this the one hyperspace-capable escape pod of the whole franchise? Their woulds have stopped bleeding but they are unconscious and half-frozen because space sucks heat away in SW. Another ship docks with them, having seemingly come across them by chance in you know, ****ing space. The rescuers are Mandalorians. Mores specifically, Death Watch, still led by a Darksaber-wielding Pre Vizla. He's confused by what they are, but rejects Bo-Katan's suggestion of just killing them there and then. If they are enemies of the Jedi (what makes him think that?) they can be friends of his. They load the two Dathomirians on their ship (they just put them on the floor, not even on a bed or chair, rude) and head to their camp on some mountainous planet. Maul comes to as mediacl droids are fixing him and his brother up. He tells Vizla they are Sith, but not in service to Dooku, they seek fortune and power. This surprises Vizla as he thought there could only ever be two Sith, Master and Apprentice.Hold up, how does he know that? Who told him that? Did Dooku tell him that? Why? Who did he think was the other Sith? Ventress? Or was he aware of Sidious? Did he watch the movies?! Maul claims he and his brother are the true Lords of the Sith. He also explains that they owe their current state to Kenobi, something Bo-Katan and Vizla worldessly approve, as they have their own grudges against Obi-Wan. They leave instructing the droids to do all they can for their two patients.

Later on, Maul is lead to Vizla's tent, who welcomes him to some tea that's allegedly good for your health (making some assumptions about Dathomirian physiology, I think). Pre explains the three-clawed mark on his helmet is the symbol of Clan Vizla and introduces himself as well as Death Watch. Saying his merry band of murderers are the true heirs of the ancestral warrior faith of Mandalore who have been exiled for holding on to these traditions while the New Mandalorians think "being a pacifist is a good thing". He says Duchess Satine and "her corrupt leadership" are crushing their soul and indentity. MAul finds the crash course on Mandalorian history interesting, but he's got a question: if the New Mandalorian are weak, why is Death Watch Watching. Says the Sith Lord without a trace of irony. Ah, it's almost like your shared philosophy is wrong, my guys. Vizla justifies himself by blaming Satine's powerful allies, including the Jedi, especially Maul's old friend Kenobi, who he says is responsible for their exile in the first place. Considering Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon spent a year protecting Satine during the Mandalorian Civil War, he's probably telling the truth. Making the fact that he doesn't realize he's talking to the man who joined Qui-Gon wih the force funny to me. It's a small world, isn't it? Vizla suggests an alliance and Maul agrees. Together they will rule the galaxy as father and son take MAndalore and punish Kenobi. Bo-Katan isn't fond of the idea though. Previous alliances with Sith didn't exactly work out for them. Dooku apparently betrayed them (would have been nice to see that happen, by the way). In her opinions, the Sith aren't better than the Jedi: exhibit A: they had to glue these two back together after Jedi beat them. Maul Force chokes her (without looking at her, which is pretty cool) and says doubt lead to failure. Vizla stops his men from opening fire. MAul makes a little speech about conquering Mandalore, and making their ennemies especially Kenobi and "the Sith Pretender" Dooku fall. He does release Bo-Katan once he's done, though. Vizla doecides they'll vote on that (huh, didn't peg Death watch for a democracy) and smiles to Bo-Katan as Maul leaves. Bo-Katan smiles back. Did she defy him on purpose to test his mettle or something?Meanwhile, savage comes to as the droids put the finishing touches on his brand new cyborg arm. He flips out and destroys them both but Maul shows up just in time to calm him down. He brings him up to speed. Savage dismisses Death watch alleged honour as a weakness, but Maul has no intention of staying true to this alliance anyway, saying death watch will only realize their true intentions too late. Savage stands up as Vizla comes in (he's so tall he bumps into the lights, I like it), they have a deal.

Later on, Maul observes some Madalorians sparring. He notes they are strong and skilled, but they require an actual army to take the planet. Vizla is counting on sympathizers who will join them once the fighting starts, but Maul has a better idea: the crime syndicate Black Sun. They would grant them access to enough resources for a full-scale conflict without the republic noticing. 
They travel in force to lava planet #598 where a yellow-skinned alien with spikes comoing out of his spine greets them along with a posse of masked guards. Maul requests an audience with their leaders, something the gatekeeper agrees to, saying it's their funeral. He takes them to a meeting of five people of the same species who immediately deny Maul's request for an army and orders them killed. However the gatekeeper completely neglected to take away their weapons before leading them to his bosses, so when they refuse a second time, Savage lobs his double-bladed lightsaber across the table, neatly beheading all five in one throw. Maul tells the gatekeeper the decision whether to join falls to him. He immediately accepts, "after careful consideration". Ah! Cut to Mandalorian warriors and black Sun thugs laoding death wAtch ships with many crates and containers. Vizla is content with this army and tells Maul he has a plan to undermine Satine. But Maul still thinks they aren't prepared enough yet. Vizla reiterates that he has a plan, but Maul says there is only one plan, one vision. Vizla isnsists it is his, but Maul claims his vision lacks clarity, that h=it is he who gives him an army _and_ a reason to supplant the Duchess, as the depth of the opportunity eludes vizla. So he tells him to watch and learn, and leaves. And, that's the moment Vizla should have stabbed him in the back, right there.

*Spoiler*
Show




Back at Death Watch headquarters, three ships land unannounced. It's the Pykes, spice dealers with connection with all the crime families of Coruscant. The fishy masked aliens learned through the criminal grapevine that Maul's building an army and they've decided to volunteer. For some reason. Pre Vizla is enthused as the news and tells them to ready themselves for a trip to Nal Hutta. Cut to the Hutt Council (two members out of five only being holo-present) ginving an audience to the three aspiring warlords. Maul's offer is elegant in its simplicity: he receives: the totality of Hutt Space, they receive:a continued existence. !The Hutt find that hilarious and sick their attack dogs on them: Embo and his dog, Dengar, Sugi and Latz. Good thing ventress isn't here, that's have made things awkward. Sugi throws a knife at Mual's head who doesn't even flinch as Savage Force-catches only a few centimeter off his his skin. Nice. The fight begins in earnest with a few thugs for the protagonists to kill to support the bounty hunters. Vizla sets fire to the Council's table and the three of them retreat to the landing bay. Where the rest of Death Watch turn up to fight back the thugs. Bo-Katan is having a jolly time of it as they expected the negotiations to go this route. The hunters retreat back inside. As the Mandalorians fan out throughout the building, Sugi, Embo and his dog ambush the Terrible trio and do a suprisingly good job of not dying. Embo has to use his metal hat as a shield to parry Savage's blows. Vizla has a cool shot where he mows down nearly a dozen opponents with the Darksaber in the time it takes Maul to wrestle Embo's dog (not the Sith's proudest moment, right there). Ultimately, the hunters are no match for their quarry and they run away. Maul elects to let them run since they have no allegiance. HOw uncharacteristically merciful of him.

In the confusion, two of the Hutt Council members managed to run away, leaving Death watch with only one prisoner of note. Upon being threatened with death he tells them the rest of the Council is on Tatooine. "So the only thing you can tell me is that I will find Jabba the Hutt... at Jabba's palace?" Sick burn, but... you asked, dude. Anyway the kill the guy and head for Jabba's palace. Jabba's goons didn't seem to be expecting an attack at all, so they easily storm the place and walk into the throne room. Jabba laughs at them but he, and the other Hutts agree to join them. Maul agrees with Vizla that they have enough muscles and supplies for their assault. However, he has altered the deal, expanded hi vision: Vizla will rule Mandalore and, under his protection, Maul will command a new galactic underworld. Vizla doesn't like that, but he tells Maul that Mandalore influences the two thousand neutral systems (didn't that use to be 1.500 systems?) which should give Maul plenty of opportunities. Maul compliments him and claim they will make the Republic and the Separatists irrelevant. He orders Vizla to send an advance party to Mandalore's capital and to give him a list of key targets, with an implied death threat in case of failure. Vizla tells Bo-Katan that they need the Sith to take back Mandalore, but he plans to kill them too once that's done. End of the episode.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

That was great. It's always nice to see the villains be allowed to flex their evil muscles once in a while. Maul started to have a losing streak, so this bounce -back is rather welcome. And it's an impressive bounce, from half-dead space hobos to galactic kingpin/warlord. He did get pretty lucky though.

Considering how similar their ideologies (and situation) are, it's not surprise that Vizla and Maul get along like a legislative House of fire. And of course they are both plotting behind each other's backs. Even without knowing that Maul's in _Rebels_ while Pre is nowhere to be seen, my money would be on Maul. The Sith are Star Wars top vilains bar none, as they prove here, taking over house names like death watch, the Hutts and Black Sun.

Speaking of, I know Black Sun was a big thing in the old EU with its leader being someone called Prince Xizor. I don't think that's the gatekeeper, but he may show up in the next episodes, who know. Well, you folk do, but you get my point.

I think that's the first appearance of the Pykes? They went through quite the redesign for their live-action appearances, but that's understandable. These heads were way too big. Still I find it funny that transitioning to live action took away their noses. usually, it's the other way around.


Next up: *Shades of Reason*. What an odd title.

----------


## Keltest

This entire arc is tainted by my personal distaste for Maul having come back in the first place, but other than that I think it is a very good demonstration of how the Sith philosophy of hiding in the shadows and manipulating things from the sidelines to their advantage could turn out to be a winning play. I dont think the EU ever really touches on how Dooku founded the Separatist Council, and this is a pretty good look at the kinds of things he would have been doing, except with corrupt bankers instead of corrupt smugglers.

----------


## McNum

One thing I love about this season is that I would swear part of it has to be made on a dare.

I mean "Savage Oppress"? The previously unknown brother of Darth Maul? That's fanfiction levels of OC. BAD fanfiction, even. And yet, here he is. And they made him work! Someone, somewhere won a bet on this guy, I cannot think of another way this could have happened.

Also if you didn't know, originally, Clone Wars was originally a five season show, so you're coming up on the Series Finale. Except it got a sixth season of bonus episodes. And then a seventh when Disney+ needed an animation draw early on. So this show has two Finales. The original, and the final one.

I am looking forward to reading your take on the rest of this season. Things are happening. Soon.

----------


## Fyraltari

> One thing I love about this season is that I would swear part of it has to be made on a dare.
> 
> I mean "Savage Oppress"? The previously unknown brother of Darth Maul? That's fanfiction levels of OC. BAD fanfiction, even. And yet, here he is. And they made him work! Someone, somewhere won a bet on this guy, I cannot think of another way this could have happened.


Savage Oppress, and his brother with an equally ridiculous name Feral Oppress, were introduced in the middle of season 3, though.




> Also if you didn't know, originally, Clone Wars was originally a five season show, so you're coming up on the Series Finale. Except it got a sixth season of bonus episodes. And then a seventh when Disney+ needed an animation draw early on. So this show has two Finales. The original, and the final one.


Yes, I know.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

The Maul episodes tend towards excellent action, but horrible plotting. All these gigantic ruler of world organisations roll over far too easily. They only have so much time, I suppose.

----------


## Keltest

> The Maul episodes tend towards excellent action, but horrible plotting. All these gigantic ruler of world organisations roll over far too easily. They only have so much time, I suppose.


What we really need is an episode of Maul and co just fighting their way through a secure bunker to the leader of the Pikes or whoever, as the entire plot. They go in, tear the place up, kill a bunch of guards, break some doors, and threaten the crime lord at lightsaber point. Something to remind us that Maul is a Sith Lord who is entire levels beyond these mere mortals in personal power.

Like the hallway scene for Vader in Rogue One.

----------


## Grim Portent

> The Maul episodes tend towards excellent action, but horrible plotting. All these gigantic ruler of world organisations roll over far too easily. They only have so much time, I suppose.


Force of personality perhaps? There tends to be a lot of power in the hands of just one or two people in any give group, so if you can reach them and strike a bargain or intimidate them the organisation as a whole falls in line. If Jabba says jump the other Hutts say 'Wait, can we do that?'

For the Black Suns it's a case of the leadership being beheaded, and the people in position to take advantage being the ones who find out first and would normally communicate with the other parts of the crime syndicate. Also the ones who aren't being murdered for defiance by the Death Watch, Sith and subverted Black Suns. That they were so easily found and spoken to is weird, but I chalk it up to being like walking into a known mafia club as a new gang in town, the location isn't necessarily secret by any means, it's just hard to pin any criminal charges on them and suicide to try anything for most people.

The Pyke's seem perfectly happy to jump on any opportunity to make money and hang around until it stops being worth it, and prefer to cooperate rather than risk confrontation. Easier to stab someone in the back than the front after all.


Doylist reasoning is of course that they are more analogous to the gangs of a city or part of a country rather than de facto governments unto themselves. Entire planets are basically the same thing as towns, cities, isolated grottos and so on in a non-interplanetary narrative.


My personal beef with this episode, which I otherwise quite like, is that none of the bounty hunters die or suffer any actual wounds. Everytime they show up they just feel... annoying and extraneous. They rarely escape harm in a way that feels believable, and they don't generally serve a purpose beyond being visually distinct 'tough guys' for whatever scenario is going on. An episode where you show 5 steaming neck stumps seems like the perfect time to cut off embo's arm or something.

----------


## Mechalich

> My personal beef with this episode, which I otherwise quite like, is that none of the bounty hunters die or suffer any actual wounds. Everytime they show up they just feel... annoying and extraneous. They rarely escape harm in a way that feels believable, and they don't generally serve a purpose beyond being visually distinct 'tough guys' for whatever scenario is going on. An episode where you show 5 steaming neck stumps seems like the perfect time to cut off embo's arm or something.


Embo is protected by the all-powerful force that is _fan support_. He was actually supposed to die in the episode he was introduced (in the way that Kyuzo, the manifestation of awesome in _Seven Samurai_ that he proxies, does), but that tested very badly, and the character was retained instead. He is literally too cool to die. And this support was long-lasting. I recall the time they introduced an Embo-inspired armor set in SWTOR as a buyable cosmetic - it was instantly everywhere. 

This issue extends to basically every other named character introduced in TCW generally. If an original character didn't suck, people liked them and didn't want them to die. Consequently, if a character doesn't die in the episode/arc in which they are introduced their chance of surviving subsequent appearances is very high. Now, it's definitely arguable that the show could have been improved by being more merciless but given how much trouble they had coming up with new characters of decent quality in the first place, I understand the hesitancy.

----------


## Fyraltari

> What we really need is an episode of Maul and co just fighting their way through a secure bunker to the leader of the Pikes or whoever, as the entire plot. They go in, tear the place up, kill a bunch of guards, break some doors, and threaten the crime lord at lightsaber point. Something to remind us that Maul is a Sith Lord who is entire levels beyond these mere mortals in personal power.
> 
> Like the hallway scene for Vader in Rogue One.


...
That's this episode.



> That they were so easily found and spoken to is weird, but I chalk it up to being like walking into a known mafia club as a new gang in town, the location isn't necessarily secret by any means, it's just hard to pin any criminal charges on them and suicide to try anything for most people.


Either that or the Sith keeping tabs on every powerful group in the galaxy. Maul also knew immediately what the Pykes were about and, like the Pyke leader says: "underworld's a small community".




> My personal beef with this episode, which I otherwise quite like, is that none of the bounty hunters die or suffer any actual wounds. Everytime they show up they just feel... annoying and extraneous. They rarely escape harm in a way that feels believable, and they don't generally serve a purpose beyond being visually distinct 'tough guys' for whatever scenario is going on. An episode where you show 5 steaming neck stumps seems like the perfect time to cut off embo's arm or something.


I have to agree. It's pretty clear they wanted a big fight scene and knew that Maul, Vizsla and Oppress vs a horde of thugs wouldn't be interesting, but they could at least have killed Latz or something. Honestly, Maul just letting them go feels weird and out of character. He's been pretty consistently bloodthirsty and unwilling to tolerate any sort of opposition so far.



> Consequently, if a character doesn't die in the episode/arc in which they are introduced their chance of surviving subsequent appearances is very high.


Not that dying in their introductory arc is necessarily an issue as T0-D0, Aurra Sing and Trench (I am told) can attest.

----------


## Keltest

> Embo is protected by the all-powerful force that is _fan support_. He was actually supposed to die in the episode he was introduced (in the way that Kyuzo, the manifestation of awesome in _Seven Samurai_ that he proxies, does), but that tested very badly, and the character was retained instead. He is literally too cool to die. And this support was long-lasting. I recall the time they introduced an Embo-inspired armor set in SWTOR as a buyable cosmetic - it was instantly everywhere. 
> 
> This issue extends to basically every other named character introduced in TCW generally. If an original character didn't suck, people liked them and didn't want them to die. Consequently, if a character doesn't die in the episode/arc in which they are introduced their chance of surviving subsequent appearances is very high. Now, it's definitely arguable that the show could have been improved by being more merciless but given how much trouble they had coming up with new characters of decent quality in the first place, I understand the hesitancy.


It would have been both nice and amusing for there to be a literal written agreement from all sides to not seriously antagonize the bounty hunters unless they went out of their way to start the fight like Boba Fett, since you might need to hire them yourself later. It would go pretty far in explaining their low attrition rate despite their violent profession.

----------


## Peelee

> One thing I love about this season is that I would swear part of it has to be made on a dare.
> 
> I mean "Savage Oppress"? The previously unknown brother of Darth Maul? That's fanfiction levels of OC. BAD fanfiction, even. And yet, here he is.


This is the same universe that had a drug dealer named Elan Sleazebaggano. Not to mention Darth Maul, Darth Sidious, and Darth Tyrannus. Subtlety is not something Star Wars has typically excelled at.



> And they made him work!


Eeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......

----------


## Jasdoif

> ...
> That's this episode.


I..._think_ Keltest is suggesting an entire episode be devoted to breaking into one secured locale; using a single extended tactical scenario to solidify the sense of Maul's personal power.  Personally I don't think any of the episodes in this arc fall short in demonstrating the power of Sith Lords; but it would have been an opportunity to get a better sense of the lesser-known-to-general-audiences criminal organizations in _Star Wars_.  (And _Hostage Crisis_ was clearly good for Cad Bane....)

----------


## Keltest

> I..._think_ Keltest is suggesting an entire episode be devoted to breaking into one secured locale; using a single extended tactical scenario to solidify the sense of Maul's personal power.  Personally I don't think any of the episodes in this arc fall short in demonstrating the power of Sith Lords; but it would have been an opportunity to get a better sense of the lesser-known-to-general-audiences criminal organizations in _Star Wars_.  (And _Hostage Crisis_ was clearly good for Cad Bane....)


Correct. Just to give us a sense of scale for what they're doing.

----------


## Fyraltari

So, basically you want the Nal Hutta sequence as an entire episode? I don't think that's necessary. Especially tsince this episode also demonstrates that Maul's power is more than brute strength. He basically takes over Death Watch by force of personality alone and makes it clear that, unlike Vizsla he's already planning several steps ahead. I think that's what he meant when he said that without him Vizsla has no reason to conquer Mandalore: that seems to be the end goal for him, whereas Maul asks "and then what?"

Of course, the irony is that his own goal (as far as I can tell) is to take over the galaxy, which is just as vacuous as taking over Mandalore, but on a larger scale.

----------


## Mechalich

> So, basically you want the Nal Hutta sequence as an entire episode? I don't think that's necessary.


I actually think more detail of Maul's acquisition of control of the galaxy's major crime syndicates would have been valuable, because it ultimately turned it a fairly big thing outside of TCW - one with potential for additional growth, since Maul was active in this role for a significant portion of the Dark Times and could conceivably show up in some future project - but there was really no way for the production team to know that at the time.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

Maul's plan appears to be

1. Build a mini empire
2. Hope no one notices.

----------


## Grim Portent

> So, basically you want the Nal Hutta sequence as an entire episode? I don't think that's necessary. Especially tsince this episode also demonstrates that Maul's power is more than brute strength. He basically takes over Death Watch by force of personality alone and makes it clear that, unlike Vizsla he's already planning several steps ahead. I think that's what he meant when he said that without him Vizsla has no reason to conquer Mandalore: that seems to be the end goal for him, whereas Maul asks "and then what?"
> 
> Of course, the irony is that his own goal (as far as I can tell) is to take over the galaxy, which is just as vacuous as taking over Mandalore, but on a larger scale.


Ah, but Maul does have a goal beyond merely conquering the galaxy.

_Revenge_.

Not a great reason all things considered, but it's his primary motivation for everything he does.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Maul's plan appears to be
> 
> 1. Build a mini empire
> 2. Hope no one notices.


I don't think that's true. He says he and his brother are the "true" Sith Lords and call Dooku a pretender. He also says he's going to make the Republic and the Separatists irrelevant.

I think he intends to either:
A) Kill Tyranus to become Sidious's apprentice again, offering his little Empire as a further proof of his worth.
Or
B) Kill both Sidious and Tyranus and use the chaos of the Clone War to morph his criminal Empire into something that would allow him to truly control the galaxy. Openly or not.


Oh, and killing Obi-Wan is definitely somewhere on his to-do list.

----------


## Grim Portent

So Maul has three long term plans, other than survival and gathering strength which are short term goals.

1) Kill Kenobi, because that grudge is his reason for living. He's been indoctrinated to be incapable of forgiveness or mercy, and views Kenobi as the reason that all his suffering before being bisected was worthless, and the cause of all his suffering afterwards.

2) Kill Sideous, because he feels that Sideous betrayed him when he left him for dead and replaced him. He would have done the same were the roles reversed, but hypocrisy isn't odd for a Sith. Ventress feels much the same about Dooku after all.

3) Take over Sideous' place as the de facto ruler of the galaxy, failing that tear down everything Sideous achieved so that both leave no legacy. Revenge against his former master must be total and absolute because damn he be angry. The specifics vary over time based on his own knowledge, but the general idea of destroy everything and replace it with his own legacy is fairly consistent.


Were he successful in the long run he'd probably be quite content to be a petty tyrant lording over things, killing and torturing when he got bored, collecting tribute he views as worthless from his subjects and so on. He's a lot like Sideous in that material things aren't important, they're just a way of keeping track of how many people live under your thumb. Given the approach he takes things in his empire would probably lean more towards an anarchic might makes right kind of thing rather than stifling burueacracy designed to keep underlings weak and fractious, and the aesthetic would be influenced by something other than the Republic, but the core idea would be much the same.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

I mean, if he wanted to bring down Sidious, all he has to do is email the Jedi temple and say Sidious is Palpatine.

----------


## Keltest

> I mean, if he wanted to bring down Sidious, all he has to do is email the Jedi temple and say Sidious is Palpatine.


And the Jedi will immediately take him at his word, right?

----------


## Grim Portent

Not to mention that isn't really how revenge works. He wants to bring down Sideous, he doesn't want someone else to do it for him.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Kill Sideous, because he feels that Sideous betrayed him when he left him for dead and replaced him. He would have done the same were the roles reversed, but hypocrisy isn't odd for a Sith. Ventress feels much the same about Dooku after all.


There is no "e" in Sidious's name.

I don't know about either of that. Ever since Savage rescued him he made no comment about Sidious. I'm not even sure *he* knows how he feels about Sidious. I also doubt Ventress would have betrayed Dooku, she seemed to see him as a father figure.




> Were he successful in the long run he'd probably be quite content to be a petty tyrant lording over things, killing and torturing when he got bored, collecting tribute he views as worthless from his subjects and so on. He's a lot like Sideous in that material things aren't important, they're just a way of keeping track of how many people live under your thumb. Given the approach he takes things in his empire would probably lean more towards an anarchic might makes right kind of thing rather than stifling burueacracy designed to keep underlings weak and fractious.


Yes, Maul is a Sith, that's pretty well established.

----------


## Peelee

> I mean, if he wanted to bring down Sidious, all he has to do is email the Jedi temple and say Sidious is Palpatine.


Like Dooku more or less did? What even was his plan there, except to give exposition to the heroes?

----------


## dancrilis

> Like Dooku more or less did? What even was his plan there, except to give exposition to the heroes?


No real need for him to have a single plan when multiple seperate plans might be progressed.

The Jedi turn on the Republic as it is under the control of a Sith Lord. - That's a win.
Obi-Wan turns on the Republic as it is under the control of a Sith Lord (could be an apprentice, after all Dooku and Qui-Gon seemed to get along). - That's a win.
The Jedi don't believe him and so are more likely to discount any evidence that the Republic as it is under the control of a Sith Lord (as simply Sith manipulation). - That's a win.
The Jedi figure out the plot and remove Sidious from office, well they would likely need to seize control of the Republic to do so which matches with what Dooku might* want.  - That's a win.
etc

*he did seem to want something like this when he was a Jedi as he regarded the Senate essentially corrupt.

No harm in throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks if you don't see how any of it could hurt you.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Like Dooku more or less did? What even was his plan there, except to give exposition to the heroes?


Were I feeling generous, I'd say seeding the plant of the Jedi's attempted coup next movie, but that's contradictory with him throwing Obi-Wan in the arena.

The Sith's actions just plain make no sense in AotC.

----------


## Kantaki

> And the Jedi will immediately take him at his word, right?


Maul might have some old photos holos lying around that show ol Palps being all chummy with him.
Some clips showing his old master's drunken rants about his plans maybe. :Small Tongue:  :Small Big Grin: 

(I kinda like the idea of Palpatine being kinda bad at this whole "secrets" thing after a few drinks... :Small Amused: )

----------


## Peelee

[QUOTE=dancrilis;25617560]No real need for him to have a single plan when multiple seperate plans might be progressed.




> The Jedi turn on the Republic as it is under the control of a Sith Lord. - That's a win.


That makes no sense and wouldn't happen based on what he said.



> Obi-Wan turns on the Republic as it is under the control of a Sith Lord (could be an apprentice, after all Dooku and Qui-Gon seemed to get along). - That's a win.


That makes no sense and wouldn't happen based on what he said. 




> The Jedi don't believe him and so are more likely to discount any evidence that the Republic as it is under the control of a Sith Lord (as simply Sith manipulation). - That's a win.


They would have had no idea to start with and some idea after. It's a stupid plan if this is a goal, since it gives up information they wouldn't even suspect at first and would suspect later even if they disbelieve it initially. Which is exactly what happened.



> The Jedi figure out the plot and remove Sidious from office, well they would likely need to seize control of the Republic to do so which matches with what Dooku might* want.  - That's a win.


That makes no sense, they don't need to "seize control of the republic". Which they didn't do when they did try to remove Palpatine from office.




> No harm in throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks if you don't see how any of it could hurt you.


Theres plenty of harm in directly announcing the entire crux of your plan to dominate the galaxy to your enemy. And there's no point to saying anything at all if you're going to have them killed right afterwards.



> The Sith's actions just plain make no sense in AotC.


Given the last two words, I'd say you were indeed feeling generous.  :Small Wink:

----------


## Fyraltari

> Maul might have some old photos holos lying around that show ol Palps being all chummy with him.
> Some clips showing his old master's drunken rants about his plans maybe.
> 
> (I kinda like the idea of Palpatine being kinda bad at this whole "secrets" thing after a few drinks...)


You're thinking of Plagueis.

By the by, I really wish they had gone with Palpatine's smooth face being an illusion and his wrinkled demonic face being what he actually looks like.



> That makes no sense, they don't need to "seize control of the republic". Which they didn't do when they did try to remove Palpatine from office.


Pretty sure that arresting/killing the elected head of state based on hearsay does require "taking control of the Republic", if only temporarily.




> Given the last two words, I'd say you were indeed feeling generous.


Hey, sometimes their actions make sense. The OT for example.

----------


## Peelee

> Pretty sure that arresting/killing the elected head of state based on hearsay does require "taking control of the Republic", if only temporarily.


I'm of the belief that arresting a head of state for crimes committed by the head of state is fulfilling the duties of a republic and not taking control of one.



> Hey, sometimes their actions make sense. The OT for example.


I was mostly making a jab at the prequel trilogy. And the sequel trilogy, come to think of it.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I'm of the belief that arresting a head of state for crimes committed by the head of state is fulfilling the duties of a republic and not taking control of one.


Hence "based on hearsay". In both RotS and this hypothetical, there is a distinct lack of actual evidence of any crime motivating the arrest. Assuming the Jedi even have the authority to arrest anyone not caught in the act without the approbation of a magistrate or equivalent, of course.




> I was mostly making a jab at the prequel trilogy. And the sequel trilogy, come to think of it.


Not a significant part of the EU, as well?

----------


## Peelee

> Hence "based on hearsay". In both RotS and this hypothetical, there is a distinct lack of actual evidence of any crime motivating the arrest. Assuming the Jedi even have the authority to arrest anyone not caught in the act without the approbation of a magistrate or equivalent, of course.


Eh, testimony is evidence, and hearsay doesn't matter when you arrest. You may beat the rap but you won't beat the ride, and all. Resisting arrest is definitely a no-no, and the Jedi certainly seemed to think they had the power to arrest the chancellor. Arguably so did the chancellor, since he had to go to the trouble of implanting loyalty chips in the clones and then lying about what happened. 



> Not a significant part of the EU, as well?


EU was not terribly heavy on Sith. They were the biggest focus in KOTOR and Clone Wars era books. And also the tail end of NJO and LotF, neither series I hold in high regard.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Eh, testimony is evidence, and hearsay doesn't matter when you arrest.


What testimony of what crime?



> You may beat the rap but you won't beat the ride, and all.


I find that heads of states have a tendency to beat the ride, actually.



> Resisting arrest is definitely a no-no


Only if it's a lawful arrest.



> and the Jedi certainly seemed to think they had the power to arrest the chancellor.


Meh, Windu flipped pretty quick on that. And more importantly, the Jedi aren't very concerned with legality anymore.



> They want me to spy on the Chancellor? That's treason.
> [...]
> This assignment is not to be on record.


Hell, at the end of this conversation, Obi-wan strongly implies that the Jedi would forcefully remove Palpatine from office if he doesn't resign at the end of the war, regardless of the Senate's decisions. That's mutiny.
[quote]Arguably so did the chancellor, since he had to go to the trouble of implanting loyalty chips in the clones and then lying about what happened.[/quote)
I don't see what this has to do with the council's actions. And if the answer involves upcoming plot points of this show, I would be grateful if you don't elaborate on that.




> EU was not terribly heavy on Sith. They were the biggest focus in KOTOR and Clone Wars era books. And also the tail end of NJO and LotF, neither series I hold in high regard.


Call it an educated guess.

----------


## Mechalich

Palpatine was arguably guilty of violating term limits. The Supreme Chancellor position, is term limited, and Palpatine was way beyond said limit. He was legal obligated to leave office the moment the war ended. In RotS Grievous' death is interpreted to represent the conclusion of the war, which is kind of reasonable - the war had been unwinnable for the Separatists for some time. It's quite likely that Nute Gunray or one of the other members of the Separatist council submitted a request for a ceasefire pending surrender discussions immediately following Grievous' demise. Mace Windu and the other masters were already planning to march into Palpatine's office and say 'the war's over, time to step down now' before Anakin bursts in and declares that he's a Sith Lord. 

Admittedly this is really abrupt. It really feels like the Jedi could have given Palpatine a bit more of a window to resign gracefully, but perhaps the Force suggested they needed to act right away.

----------


## Peelee

> What testimony of what crime?


At the very least, he ordered the extra judicial killing of an unarmed combatant. Anakin could attest to that if he so wished.



> I find that heads of states have a tendency to beat the ride, actually.


We're talking about a fantasy land. 



> Only if it's a lawful arrest.


Well, I _did_ just say we're talking about a fantasy land, so fair.  :Small Wink: 




> I don't see what this has to do with the council's actions. And if the answer involves upcoming plot points of this show, I would be grateful if you don't elaborate on that.


It shows that he also believes they have that power, given that if they didn't, he could simply claim they did exactly what they did and that would already be them wildly overstepping their authority. It wasnt "this group tried to arrest me, that's treason", it was "this group tried to assassinate me, that's treason"

----------


## Fyraltari

> At the very least, he ordered the extra judicial killing of an unarmed combatant. Anakin could attest to that if he so wished.


You mean Dooku? The Council doesn't know about that.




> It shows that he also believes they have that power


I really don't see how having the clones brainwashed has anything to do with his assessment of the Jedi's legal authority. He can't kill them all so he procures the tools needed to carry that out.
Are you suggesting that his plan relies on the Jedi acting lawfully? because he clearly doesn't expect them too since he guessed they would ask Anakin to spy on him, which *is* treason.



> given that if they didn't, he could simply claim they did exactly what they did and that would already be them wildly overstepping their authority. It wasnt "this group tried to arrest me, that's treason", it was "this group tried to assassinate me, that's treason"


But... That's what happened. Mace Windu did try to assassinate him. There was an attempt on his life.

----------


## Keltest

> But... That's what happened. Mace Windu did try to assassinate him. There was an attempt on his life.


No? He attacked them when they came to arrest him. Thats resisting arrest by any reasonable measure.

----------


## Fyraltari

> No? He attacked them when they came to arrest him. Thats resisting arrest by any reasonable measure.


And when he seemed beaten and Anakin wanted him hauled to the courts, Mace said he was too dangerous to be left alive and tried to cleave him in two.

----------


## Keltest

> And when he seemed beaten and Anakin wanted him hauled to the courts, Mace said he was too dangerous to be left alive and tried to cleave him in two.


While Palpatine was actively shooting lightning at him. I find the idea that Palpatine could be arrested and contained to be laughable. Anakin was clearly looking for an excuse to keep Palpatine alive for his own needs.

----------


## Fyraltari

> While Palpatine was actively shooting lightning at him.


No, immediately afterward. Sidious throws lightning for a while then says "I can't hold him any longer... I am too weak" and starts begging for his life. Only at this moment does Windu states he intends to kill him. Sidious keeps the "weakened, barely conscious" act up until Anakin cuts Windu's hands off.



> I find the idea that Palpatine could be arrested and contained to be laughable. Anakin was clearly looking for an excuse to keep Palpatine alive for his own needs.


I've got to say, claiming that "the notion that Palpatine could be arrested and contained [is] laughable" is a bold way to defend the notion that Windu was trying to arrest and contain Sidious and not kill him.

----------


## Peelee

> You mean Dooku? The Council doesn't know about that.





> Anakin could attest to that if he so wished.


I am forced to assume by your questions here that in France one can only testify to things the jury is already fully aware of. That must be one interesting legal system. 



> I really don't see how having the clones brainwashed has anything to do with his assessment of the Jedi's legal authority. He can't kill them all so he procures the tools needed to carry that out.


If you can't see that, then I doubt I could illuminate you.



> But... That's what happened. Mace Windu did try to assassinate him. There was an attempt on his life.


They tried to arrest him. He killed several of them. Mace Windy responded to lethal force with lethal force.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I am forced to assume by your questions here that in France one can only testify to things the jury is already fully aware of. That must be one interesting legal system.


The Jedi Council isn't the jury, though? They're the arresting officers.
Edit2: and also that would implicate Anakin far more than Sidious. Since he's the one who actually did do the killing.




> If you can't see that, then I doubt I could illuminate you.


Cool.
Edit1: No seriously, "he has soldiers brainwashed, therefore he believes the Jedi are enabled to make unilateral arrests" How does that work?



> They tried to arrest him. He killed several of them. Mace Windy responded to lethal force with lethal force.


No, as I've just explained to Keltest, Mace only decides to kill Sidious after he's stopped resisting (as far as Windu's aware). You are American, so I understand the concept might seem odd to you, but self-defense only applies in response to clear and immediate danger.

And even if that were the case, Windu was still in the middle of a coup.
Edit3: And again, the JEdi were already acting illegally way before that.

----------


## Mechalich

> I really don't see how having the clones brainwashed has anything to do with his assessment of the Jedi's legal authority. He can't kill them all so he procures the tools needed to carry that out. Are you suggesting that his plan relies on the Jedi acting lawfully? because he clearly doesn't expect them too since he guessed they would ask Anakin to spy on him, which *is* treason.


Whether or not Anakin spying on Palpatine is treason depends on legal structures, confidentiality agreements, and exactly what the scope of Anakin's actions are. Generally, it sounded like the Council wanted Anakin report to them on everything Palpatine told him. With regard to any conversation concerning official business, that's probably illegal, since any conversation Palpatine has in an official capacity is probably covered by whatever the Republic's equivalent of executive privilege happens to be, and with regard to matters concerning the prosecution of the war, are probably covered by some kind of Official Secrets Act. Anakin sharing that information is therefore a clear violation of security laws and might be considered espionage (this depends on the legal status of the Jedi Order, which has always been a thorny issue), but treason is probably not a viable charge. 




> I've got to say, claiming that "the notion that Palpatine could be arrested and contained [is] laughable" is a bold way to defend the notion that Windu was trying to arrest and contain Sidious and not kill him.


It's more an issue of how use of force is handled. Palpatine is capable of shooting lightning from his hands. That means he can utilize deadly force even while not carrying any weapon and even while handcuffed. As such, he represents a deadly force threat _continually_, meaning the use of force continuum once that ability has been revealed always authorized a deadly force response. For example, if current USA laws were applied to the situation any law officer could reliably claim justification for shooting Palpatine dead _at any time_.

This is one of those tricky sorts of things about fantasy abilities in which the complete lack of a real-world framework means we don't have a system to handle this properly. The EU has actually gone into this is some depth. Force users, notably, are nearly impossible to restrain, which creates real problems for any state that wishes to impose any penalty other than execution on a Force user once voluntary compliance is off the table.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

There is a big difference between 'there is a Sith Lord in control of the Senate' and 'it is this specific person.' There's no equivalence at all, really. 'Controlling the Senate' doesn't even guarantee they're on Coruscant.

Are they going to believe Maul immediately, probably not. But they'll investigate, which will make life difficult for Sidious

As to Dooku's purpose in volunteering that information, that is easy, sowing discord. He wants to make the Senate suspicious of the Jedi and the Jedi suspicious of the Senate, making them question each other's motives and collaboration more difficult.

----------


## Peelee

> The Jedi Council isn't the jury, though? They're the arresting officers.


You do realize that the police not being able to take reports of a crime unless they know about it already is even weirder, right? 



> LEdit2: and also that would implicate Anakin far more than Sidious. Since he's the one who actually did do the killing.


Note to self, France does not have a "state's witness" category for accomplices.
For reals, though, there's a reason I said "if he so wished". Yes, it would implicate him as well. There are numerous responses about how he could potentially deal with that, starting at "he can start to atone for the evil he's done before the Death Star is about to blow" and going downhill from there, but I'm not interested in getting lost in the weeds on that. 



> Cool.
> Edit1: No seriously, "he has soldiers brainwashed, therefore he believes the Jedi are enabled to make unilateral arrests" How does that work?


Yes, brainwashing everyone who can stop the Jedi into obeying you without resistance and then on top of that also deliberately and publicly misrepresenting what the Jedi did screams "what I did was totally legit and I could have achieved the same result without forcing people to obey and lying to everyone else about what happened". 



> No, as I've just explained to Keltest, Mace only decides to kill Sidious after he's stopped resisting (as far as Windu's aware).


He had seemingly stopped resisting. Mace did not believe he had actually stopped resisting. Mace was correct and he had, in fact, not stopped resisting.

You can explain your position to as many people as you like but it won't make it correct.

----------


## dancrilis

> That makes no sense and wouldn't happen based on what he said.


Things can snowball - if the Jedi investigated and found the claim reasonable they might break with the Republic to avoid being under the control of a Sith lord.




> That makes no sense and wouldn't happen based on what he said.


Things can snowball - if the Obi-Wan investigated and found the claim reasonable he might break with the Republic (and the Jedi) to avoid being under the control of a Sith lord.




> They would have had no idea to start with and some idea after. It's a stupid plan if this is a goal, since it gives up information they wouldn't even suspect at first and would suspect later even if they disbelieve it initially. Which is exactly what happened.


Just because a plan might backfire doesn't mean that the planner decides it will backfire and therefore doesn't do it.
Seperately if the suspicion came to them naturally rather then at the hands of an enemy they might have followed it much sooner.




> That makes no sense, they don't need to "seize control of the republic". Which they didn't do when they did try to remove Palpatine from office.


The Senate could have a vote of no confidence which seems to remove a chancellor from office - the Jedi didn't go that route they launched what seems to be an illegal attack on the chancellor (this is further clarified in the novel of Revenge of the Sith), and Palpatine clearly called them out on there treason and they didn't refute his legal position (or state their own legal position).
Mace Windu here says (before Anakin speaks) that he intends to force Palpatine to give up power - which doesn't seem the proper channels for making such a request, the Senate granted him those powers so it would likely be up to them to make him give them up not unelected members of the Jedi council, and even in his confrontation with Palpatine after Anakin told him about Palpatine being a Sith lord he didn't get authorisation from the entire Jedi council let alone the Senate.




> Theres plenty of harm in directly announcing the entire crux of your plan to dominate the galaxy to your enemy. And there's no point to saying anything at all if you're going to have them killed right afterwards.


Maybe he felt that Obi-Wan had the skills/means to survive (he might have known a clone army was coming after all).




> As such, he represents a deadly force threat _continually_, meaning the use of force continuum once that ability has been revealed always authorized a deadly force response.


Which would place Palpatine and Anakin in the clear for the killing of Dooku.

----------


## Keltest

> Which would place Palpatine and Anakin in the clear for the killing of Dooku.


Dooku who was literally disarmed?

----------


## dancrilis

> Dooku who was literally disarmed?


Vader was able to use the force after being disarmed, and losing one arm didn't seem to overly slow Anakin down - I don't see why Dooku would not have been able to continue using it without his hands.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Palpatine was arguably guilty of violating term limits. The Supreme Chancellor position, is term limited, and Palpatine was way beyond said limit. He was legal obligated to leave office the moment the war ended. In RotS Grievous' death is interpreted to represent the conclusion of the war, which is kind of reasonable - the war had been unwinnable for the Separatists for some time. It's quite likely that Nute Gunray or one of the other members of the Separatist council submitted a request for a ceasefire pending surrender discussions immediately following Grievous' demise. Mace Windu and the other masters were already planning to march into Palpatine's office and say 'the war's over, time to step down now' before Anakin bursts in and declares that he's a Sith Lord. 
> 
> Admittedly this is really abrupt. It really feels like the Jedi could have given Palpatine a bit more of a window to resign gracefully, but perhaps the Force suggested they needed to act right away.


Palpatine was granted emergency powers to deal with "The Separatist crisis" before the war began. Steppinh down before the Separatist Council is arrested would be premature.



> Whether or not Anakin spying on Palpatine is treason depends on legal structures, confidentiality agreements, and exactly what the scope of Anakin's actions are. Generally, it sounded like the Council wanted Anakin report to them on everything Palpatine told him. With regard to any conversation concerning official business, that's probably illegal, since any conversation Palpatine has in an official capacity is probably covered by whatever the Republic's equivalent of executive privilege happens to be, and with regard to matters concerning the prosecution of the war, are probably covered by some kind of Official Secrets Act. Anakin sharing that information is therefore a clear violation of security laws and might be considered espionage (this depends on the legal status of the Jedi Order, which has always been a thorny issue), but treason is probably not a viable charge.


The exact type of crime isn't exactly relevant. The fact that is a crime, and that the Jedi are very well aware of it is what matters.






> It's more an issue of how use of force is handled. Palpatine is capable of shooting lightning from his hands. That means he can utilize deadly force even while not carrying any weapon and even while handcuffed. As such, he represents a deadly force threat _continually_, meaning the use of force continuum once that ability has been revealed always authorized a deadly force response. For example, if current USA laws were applied to the situation any law officer could reliably claim justification for shooting Palpatine dead _at any time_.
> 
> This is one of those tricky sorts of things about fantasy abilities in which the complete lack of a real-world framework means we don't have a system to handle this properly. The EU has actually gone into this is some depth. Force users, notably, are nearly impossible to restrain, which creates real problems for any state that wishes to impose any penalty other than execution on a Force user once voluntary compliance is off the table.


If that were Windu's reasoning (it's not see below), then the fact that this isn't new information (Windu knows that Sith can throw lightning around) means that Windu had no intention of ever taking him alive then.

Or was really, really dumb.



> You do realize that the police not being able to take reports of a crime unless they know about it already is even weirder, right?
> 
> Note to self, France does not have a "state's witness" category for accomplices.
> For reals, though, there's a reason I said "if he so wished". Yes, it would implicate him as well. There are numerous responses about how he could potentially deal with that, starting at "he can start to atone for the evil he's done before the Death Star is about to blow" and going downhill from there, but I'm not interested in getting lost in the weeds on that.


Okay, I think I see the confusion. Are you suggesting that the Jedi Council justify their arrest of Sidious, after the fact, by lying about Anakin having told them that _prior_ to the arrest?




> Yes, brainwashing everyone who can stop the Jedi into obeying you without resistance and then on top of that also deliberately and publicly misrepresenting what the Jedi did screams "what I did was totally legit and I could have achieved the same result without forcing people to obey and lying to everyone else about what happened".


No one is saying that Sidious is acting "legit" and in bad faith, my dude. Of course he deliberately pushed the Jedi into this. Order 66 is illegal regardless of the legality of the Jedi's actions. But thr fact that he tricked them into these actions so he could use them to justify his own crimes by painting them in the worst possible light does not mean they didn't try to depose him and they did not attempt on his life. He's using the things that they did indeed do.




> He had seemingly stopped resisting. Mace did not believe he had actually stopped resisting. Mace was correct and he had, in fact, not stopped resisting.


That would be great if that was what Mace Windu meant when he said Sidious was too dangerous to be left alive.



> He has control of the courts and the Senate! He's too dangerous to be left alive!


Windu isn't talking about his capacity to inflict physical harm. He thinks that Sidious could weasel his way out of any trial and so decides to throw the rule of law through the window.




> You can explain your position to as many people as you like but it won't make it correct.


True. What being correct is what makes it correct.



> Dooku who was literally disarmed?


Dooku: Unhand me, villain!
Anakin: 'Kay.

----------


## Peelee

A.) I still disagree with some of your points, but others are fair. I think we can agree that the characters (and the dialogue, and the plot) were not well written, though.



> lDooku: Unhand me, villain!
> Anakin: 'Kay.


Ok that got a good laugh out of me.

----------


## Mechalich

> The exact type of crime isn't exactly relevant. The fact that is a crime, and that the Jedi are very well aware of it is what matters.


The type of crime is _extremely relevant_. Precision is important. 'Violation of executive privilege' or 'mishandling of official classified information' is not the same thing as treason. Critically, the former is usually a low-level felony while the latter tends to be punishable by death. It's important not to oversimplify. The Jedi Council asked Anakin to commit an act that, while legally criminal, they could plausibly argue was morally justified. That's not the same thing as committing treason against the Republic that he swore to protect and defend. 




> If that were Windu's reasoning (it's not see below), then the fact that this isn't new information (Windu knows that Sith can throw lightning around) means that Windu had no intention of ever taking him alive then.


No, we just don't know, because we don't know how the legal framework for use of force is structured in a universe where 'I can kill you with my brain' is a factual statement for some, extremely rare, individuals. Maybe the Jedi do have a way to constraint defeated Sith. Perhaps they can place them into Force stasis, or maybe they can sever their connection to the Force entirely, or a number of other things it just isn't known because the universe has not consistently engaged with this problem.

This is a common problem in fictional universes of this type, a general refusal to acknowledge that the ability of people to actually do things that aren't possible in reality mandates an adjusted legal framework to grapple with those implications (historically, in which these things were not possible, but were broadly believed to be, such structures did in fact exist). Many universes cheat the issue by conveniently producing 'power dampeners' or something similar (including Star Wars). 

Ultimately, with regard to RotS it's just a plot hole. You're right that it's not Windu's reasoning regardless, but it's an impediment to the hypothetical scenario where Windu agrees with Anakin and they try to take Palpatine in to stand trial. There's simply no in-universe mechanism for that to actually happen.

----------


## pendell

> He had seemingly stopped resisting. Mace did not believe he had actually stopped resisting. Mace was correct and he had, in fact, not stopped resisting.
> 
> You can explain your position to as many people as you like but it won't make it correct.


Objection! 

Fellow sapients, I wish to introduce as evidence the  recording of the event in question. 

Observe. 
1) From the time the lightning stops at 2:52 to the time Windu swings his sword at 3:26 is approximately thirty seconds. 
2) During this period, Mace Windu _repeatedly_ looks away from Palpatine towards Anakin, taking his eyes of Palpatine. 

Fellow sapients, is this the act of a man in fear of his life from deadly force?   What police officer, faced with a suspect with a gun, takes his eyes off to banter with the fellow cops at the scene for half a minute -- six combat rounds?  

3) To top all this off , I point out Mace gives his reason for killing his target: "He controls the senate and the courts! He's too dangerous to be left alive!" 

Interesting that he's already thinking ahead to a possible future trial and didn't say something like, for example "This guy is faking and he's going to kill us if we don't end him NOW!"  Followed by an immediate sword slash, if he even waited to explain his actions. I wouldn't. If I was facing off with a sith lord whom I thought was still dangerous, I wouldn't waste words; I'd take his head in the next three seconds. Anakin wouldn't even have time to open his mouth or realize what was going to happen before it was done. 

THEREFORE, I contend: 
-- That, while Palpatine was shamming,  _Mace Windu believed the ruse_.
-- That , despite believing he was facing an unarmed, helpless man, he chose to try to kill him _anyway_.  
-- That the statement, I "am going to end this" is proof of premeditation. 
He has shown criminal intent. He has performed a criminal act.  Therefore, I contend Mace Windu, Jedi Master, is guilty of (attempted) murder in the first degree. 

:Nods to Peelee: 

Your argument, Counselor. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Peelee

> :Nods to Peelee: 
> 
> Your argument, Counselor. 
> 
> Respectfully, 
> 
> Brian P.


Sustained.


C'mon, with my ego, how could you _not_ assume it'd make myself the judge?

----------


## Mechalich

> He has shown criminal intent. He has performed a criminal act.  Therefore, I contend Mace Windu, Jedi Master, is guilty of (attempted) murder in the first degree.


He's guilty of attempted murder, but it's not necessarily criminal. It might be a legal murder.

Specifically, it is entirely possible that _being a Sith Lord_ is an illegal status and anyone identified as such is subject to summary execution by duly empowered officers of the law - which Mace Windu, as a General of the GAR, explicitly is. While modern real-world democracies generally have laws against this sort of thing - usually called a Bill of Attainder, it is not necessary that the Republic does, and it makes a massive amount of sense to have an exception for Sith Lords.

Additionally, RotS contains evidence to this effect. When Palpatine orders Anakin to kill Dooku, Anakin does not object, 'but that's murder!' he says instead 'it's not the Jedi way.' No one at any point in the film latter attempts to arrest or even rebuke Anakin for committing this particular crime. Mace Windu, with Palpatine, is more or less taking the exact same steps, the only real difference is that Palpatine is merely pretending to be helpless while Dooku was actually helpless (or close enough anyway). 

Now, Mace Windu might still be acting illegally via preemption. If anti-Sith Bills of Attainder are passed versus individuals and not universally, then Mace Windu may have skipped the step where he goes before a friendly judge and gets Palpatine declared a Sith and marked for death. Which would mean it's still attempted murder, but on a technicality.

----------


## Fyraltari

> A.) I still disagree with some of your points, but others are fair. I think we can agree that the characters (and the dialogue, and the plot) were not well written, though.
> 
> Ok that got a good laugh out of me.


Aight, fair enough.

----------


## pendell

> He's guilty of attempted murder, but it's not necessarily criminal. It might be a legal murder.
> 
> Specifically, it is entirely possible that _being a Sith Lord_ is an illegal status and anyone identified as such is subject to summary execution by duly empowered officers of the law - which Mace Windu, as a General of the GAR, explicitly is. While modern real-world democracies generally have laws against this sort of thing - usually called a Bill of Attainder, it is not necessary that the Republic does, and it makes a massive amount of sense to have an exception for Sith Lords.


There is evidence to contradict your thesis. I introduce into Evidence   Revenge of the Sith Novelization , Chapter 17, page 324. 




> MACE WINDU: You're under arrest. 
> PALPATINE: Really, Master Windu, you cannot be serious. On what charge? 
> MACE WINDU: You're a Sith Lord! 
> PALPATINE: Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact --the last time I read the Constitution, anyway -- we have very strict laws against this time of persecution. So I ask you again: What is my alleged crime? How do you expect to justify your mutiny before the Senate?  Or do you intend to arrest the Senate as well?
> MACE WINDU: We're not here to argue with you.


I'll cut it short there because I have limited typing time this morning.  


Points: 
-- According to Palpatine, being Sith in and of itself is not a crime in the Republic. Nor does it carry an automatic death sentence.  If Palpatine had surrendered, the most "being Sith" could give the Jedi would be a mechanism to establish a motive for some crime  on the books. The Republic has Freedom of Religion. 
Mace doesn't argue the point, which to my mind means he conceded it; he's not operating within the bounds of law. He's gone vigilante. 

-- As I recall from the EU, there were a number of religious wars in their history. They didn't take many Sith prisoners. Like Exar Kun, they tended to be killed in action or commit suicide in grandious ways rather than submit to the humiliation of capture.  There were , however, a few former Sith who surrendered (Exar Kun's partner  Ulic , if I remember correctly) and they weren't killed out of hand either.  

Not to mention, this is an old-school 30s drama. The heroes don't kill people in cold blood, not if they're going to be heroes. 

Thus:  I have evidence from the novelization that being a Sith itself is not a crime and therefore Mace Windu is not authorized to simply kill any Sith out of hand, especially one whom he believes helpless and unarmed.    

Whether bills of attainder exist in the Republic or not, the fact remains that there was no such law on the books to authorize Mace Windu's actions at the time, so it absolutely remains murder in the first degree (as opposed to 'justifiable homicide', which it would be if such a bill had been passed).

I have to note in passing Palpatine's massive hypocrisy in decrying unconstitutional attacks on religion when he plans on massacring the Jedi down to the younglings  -- also a violation of freedom of religion, also extra-constitutional. But he's the villain. He's supposed to be the bad guy. The Jedi are supposed to be the heroes and do better. The fact Mace Windu, at that moment, had fallen to moral equivalence to Palpatine is one of the reasons Anakin fell at that moment.   

If you have contrary evidence, I urge you to present it. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## dancrilis

> I have to note in passing Palpatine's massive hypocrisy in decrying unconstitutional attacks on religion when he plans on massacring the Jedi down to the younglings  -- also a violation of freedom of religion, also extra-constitutional. But he's the villain. He's supposed to be the bad guy. The Jedi are supposed to be the heroes and do better. The fact Mace Windu, at that moment, had fallen to moral equivalence to Palpatine is one of the reasons Anakin fell at that moment.


In Palpatine's defence the Jedi were a known group and a number of the leaders of that group had just revealed themselves to be traitors - it is plausible that this effectively meant that the blame fell on the entire group and that there were legal rules for dealing with traitors in which they were allowed to be executed immediately (the same way that killing seperatists could seemingly be done without moving to capture or try them) on the authority of the chancellor - this might make sense particularly given the positions of power the Jedi had within the republic military.

i.e from a legal standpoint perhaps he didn't kill them because they were members of the Jedi philosophy but instead because they were members of a group who had attempted a coup.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Additionally, RotS contains evidence to this effect. When Palpatine orders Anakin to kill Dooku, Anakin does not object, 'but that's murder!' he says instead 'it's not the Jedi way.' No one at any point in the film latter attempts to arrest or even rebuke Anakin for committing this particular crime.


That's because the only ones present are Anakin, Palpatine, an unconscious Obi-Wan and a soon-to-be-late Dooku. Everybody assume Anakin killed Dooku while he was still fighting.




> I have to note in passing Palpatine's massive hypocrisy in decrying unconstitutional attacks on religion when he plans on massacring the Jedi down to the younglings  -- also a violation of freedom of religion, also extra-constitutional.


That's the thing that makes you call Sidious an hypocrite? Your camel has a hell of a strong back.




> In Palpatine's defence the Jedi were a known group and a number of the leaders of that group had just revealed themselves to be traitors - it is plausible that this effectively meant that the blame fell on the entire group and that there were legal rules for dealing with traitors in which they were allowed to be executed immediately (the same way that killing seperatists could seemingly be done without moving to capture or try them) on the authority of the chancellor - this might make sense particularly given the positions of power the Jedi had within the republic military.


Objection: the younglings exist.




> i.e from a legal standpoint perhaps he didn't kill them because they were members of the Jedi philosophy but instead because they were members of a group who had attempted a coup.


From a legal standpoint he killed them because he don't give no **** about the law.

----------


## dancrilis

> That's the thing that makes you call Sidious an hypocrite? Your camel has a hell of a strong back.


It's hard to be a hypocrite when your guiding philosophy is, "Do whatever's best for you".




> Objection: the younglings exist.


Warriors who know nothing other then the teachings of the dangerous group that raised them - each one likely a match for the average citizen of the republic.




> From a legal standpoint he killed them because he don't give no **** about the law.


I disagree with this - Palpatine got elected Emperor legally, had he illegally killed the Jedi it might have given his detractors some areas to try to undermine him and it might have given some systems cause to rebel if he cracked down on their senators reasonable legal objections.

I think Palpatine wanted to do things by the book - including killing the Jedi - for solid pragmatic reasons.

Had Mace Windu followed that book i.e get the Senate to remove his executive powers (instead of bursting into the chancellor's office talking about arresting him) things might have worked out better for the Jedi.

----------


## Keltest

> I disagree with this - Palpatine got elected Emperor legally, had he illegally killed the Jedi it might have given his detractors some areas to try to undermine him and it might have given some systems cause to rebel if he cracked down on their senators reasonable legal objections.
> 
> I think Palpatine wanted to do things by the book - including killing the Jedi - for solid pragmatic reasons.
> 
> Had Mace Windu followed that book i.e get the Senate to remove his executive powers (instead of bursting into the chancellor's office talking about arresting him) things might have worked out better for the Jedi.


These are all kind of dubious claims. Palpatine engineered a years long civil war where one of the specific goals was to eliminate and replace the senators who would be opposed to his power grab. Saying he did it legally is sort of like saying you won an election legally by murdering your opponent the day before the voting started.

Because make no mistake, Mace Windu was entirely correct about how much Palpatine controlled the courts and senate at that point, and many of their members were very much complicit in the reorganizing into the new order.

----------


## Thrudd

> In Palpatine's defence the Jedi were a known group and a number of the leaders of that group had just revealed themselves to be traitors - it is plausible that this effectively meant that the blame fell on the entire group and that there were legal rules for dealing with traitors in which they were allowed to be executed immediately (the same way that killing seperatists could seemingly be done without moving to capture or try them) on the authority of the chancellor - this might make sense particularly given the positions of power the Jedi had within the republic military.
> 
> i.e from a legal standpoint perhaps he didn't kill them because they were members of the Jedi philosophy but instead because they were members of a group who had attempted a coup.


That's certainly the excuse. We should probably consider that most likely the laws of the Republic were imagined by Lucas to basically be the same as the laws of the US, since it is a "democracy". Everything Palpatine is doing is meant to be seen as a corruption and undermining of the laws- targeting all the Jedi for execution has no legitimate legal excuse, neither did unilaterally deciding to build and equip a massive army without senate approval. He has convinced people to ignore democratic principles and procedures in the name of "security". He has convinced everyone that he should be allowed to change the rules because he's the only one who can save them, and that they can no longer trust the people who traditionally had been protecting them. He successfully indoctrinated Anakin to believe this very thing, through an apparently very close and mostly off-screen relationship - turning the perception of "government inefficiency" and corruption (which he himself was fostering and even creating) into "they are morally bankrupt and can't be trusted" into "they're actually evil and need to be destroyed". Maybe the majority of the senate is meant to be hopelessly corrupt, and they didn't actually care about "security" nor believed that Jedi were traitors, but were playing along with that excuse while actually just getting paid off in some manner. But Anakin at least was convinced of the need for "security" and "order", probably along with many members of the military- he says as much in AotC, when he "jokes" about maybe authoritarianism being better than democracy (we must presume Palpatine has already been working on him at this point, though we never saw it).

----------


## Doug Lampert

> The type of crime is _extremely relevant_. Precision is important. 'Violation of executive privilege' or 'mishandling of official classified information' is not the same thing as treason. Critically, the former is usually a low-level felony while the latter tends to be punishable by death. It's important not to oversimplify. The Jedi Council asked Anakin to commit an act that, while legally criminal, they could plausibly argue was morally justified. That's not the same thing as committing treason against the Republic that he swore to protect and defend.


I've been required in the past to initial a bunch of paragraphs of the legal code dealing with handling some classified information. Every paragraph on the pages in question ended with "punishable by up to X years in jail and fines of up to Y dollars, or death".

Security related crimes for a wide range of secrets are potentially capital crimes, they aren't normally charged or punished as such, but when was the last time we actually exected someone for treason?

Treason or deliberate mishandling of extemely high level security information during time of war? I'm not seeing either of these as only a low-level felony, both are likely to be capital crimes in any society that has the death penalty at all.

The Jedi trying to spy on the Chancellor's conduct of the war was NOT a minor crime, whether or not it was actually treason.

----------


## Keltest

> I've been required in the past to initial a bunch of paragraphs of the legal code dealing with handling some classified information. Every paragraph on the pages in question ended with "punishable by up to X years in jail and fines of up to Y dollars, or death".
> 
> Security related crimes for a wide range of secrets are potentially capital crimes, they aren't normally charged or punished as such, but when was the last time we actually exected someone for treason?
> 
> Treason or deliberate mishandling of extemely high level security information during time of war? I'm not seeing either of these as only a low-level felony, both are likely to be capital crimes in any society that has the death penalty at all.
> 
> The Jedi trying to spy on the Chancellor's conduct of the war was NOT a minor crime, whether or not it was actually treason.


The Jedi are law enforcement with exceptionally broad authority, and they have reason to believe that Palpatine is behaving illegitimately in some manner even before they find out he's a sith lord. And so far as we know, they weren't rifling through boxes of secret government files or anything, just watching him carefully. And since Anakin was invited into his confidence by Palpatine directly, I think it would be difficult to make any sort of charge stick with the information we have available.

----------


## Fyraltari

> It's hard to be a hypocrite when your guiding philosophy is, "Do whatever's best for you".


That only works if you're open about it. "Hypocrisy" literally translates to "mask-wearing". Palpatine pretends to be out fo rthe greater good and accuses other of his own crimes. Hypocrite supreme.




> Warriors who know nothing other then the teachings of the dangerous group that raised them - each one likely a match for the average citizen of the republic.


 :Yuk: 





> I disagree with this - Palpatine got elected Emperor legally


Palapatine was not elected Emperor. He proclaimed that he was and the majority of the senate applauded. There was no vote. And no constitution of any regime ever included provision to become another regime. Sidious spent decades placing his pawns into position while eroding the democratic norms of the Republic, engineered two consecutive crisis to catapult himself into power and increase his popularity then he declared the Republic over and had the one group that could resist him mass-murdered. Being prepared for a long-time doesn't make this less of a coup.



> had he illegally killed the Jedi it might have given his detractors some areas to try to undermine him and it might have given some systems cause to rebel if he cracked down on their senators reasonable legal objections.


What do you think the point of the massive army and the propaganda machine is, exactly?




> I think Palpatine wanted to do things by the book - including killing the Jedi - for solid pragmatic reasons.


You think the guy who instigated a civil war wanted to do things by the book? Seriously



> Had Mace Windu followed that book i.e get the Senate to remove his executive powers (instead of bursting into the chancellor's office talking about arresting him) things might have worked out better for the Jedi.


Nah, Sidious would just have lied about it.



> That's certainly the excuse. We should probably consider that most likely the laws of the Republic were imagined by Lucas to basically be the same as the laws of the US, since it is a "democracy". Everything Palpatine is doing is meant to be seen as a corruption and undermining of the laws- targeting all the Jedi for execution has no legitimate legal excuse, neither did unilaterally deciding to build and equip a massive army without senate approval. He has convinced people to ignore democratic principles and procedures in the name of "security". He has convinced everyone that he should be allowed to change the rules because he's the only one who can save them, and that they can no longer trust the people who traditionally had been protecting them. He successfully indoctrinated Anakin to believe this very thing, through an apparently very close and mostly off-screen relationship - turning the perception of "government inefficiency" and corruption (which he himself was fostering and even creating) into "they are morally bankrupt and can't be trusted" into "they're actually evil and need to be destroyed".


Note that this is the standard fascist/strongman tactic to gain power all over history and the world. Points to a crisis, any crisis whether real or imaginary, stoke the flames as much as possible and claim that you could solve it if people just "temporarily" gave away some of their freedom to you and then never give them back. Make sure to give the upper-class more power and wealth that they had before (by taking it away from the lower class) and bombard the lower class with propaganda about your wise rule while blaming any issue that arise on the ennemy, and you're golden.



> But Anakin at least was convinced of the need for "security" and "order", probably along with many members of the military- he says as much in AotC, when he "jokes" about maybe authoritarianism being better than democracy (we must presume Palpatine has already been working on him at this point, though we never saw it).


There's no need to assume. Palpatine tells a young Anakin in TPM that he will watch his career with great interest and in AotC, Anakin credits his success as a padawan to Palpatine's "guidance" while Palpatine love-bombs him and mention having done it many times in the past. Say what you want about the guy, but has certainly has an eye for talent.



> The Jedi trying to spy on the Chancellor's conduct of the war was NOT a minor crime, whether or not it was actually treason.


Which was my point about the exact type of crime being irrelevant.



> The Jedi are law enforcement with exceptionally broad authority, and they have reason to believe that Palpatine is behaving illegitimately in some manner even before they find out he's a sith lord. And so far as we know, they weren't rifling through boxes of secret government files or anything, just watching him carefully. And since Anakin was invited into his confidence by Palpatine directly, I think it would be difficult to make any sort of charge stick with the information we have available.


If it were so, why would the Jedi want this assignment to be off their own record?

----------


## pendell

> Palapatine was not elected Emperor. He proclaimed that he was and the majority of the senate applauded.


In other words, He was  elected by Acclamation . It's a shortcut in parliamentary procedure when the motion in question is such a gimme that the normal rules of debate can be suspended. That's what happens in this case -- the Senate legally converted the Republic into the Empire by acclamation, 'with thunderous applause'.  

Palpatine's assumption of power was entirely legal by the laws of the Republic.   The Rebel Alliance -- or Alliance to Restore the Republic, to give it its proper name , at least in some sources -- existed because the legal system had broken down to the point that it had given a totalitarian capable of blowing up an innocent world just to make a point absolute power. But at any point up to the battle of Endor it is likely the Emperor would have _won_ a galaxy wide plebiscite on the question of whether the galaxy should be controlled by an Empire or whether the Republic should be restored.  Especially since the bulk of the voting would have been done on places like Kuat or Corellia or Coruscant, human-dominated worlds populous, rich, and benefiting greatly from the Empire.  

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Palpatine's assumption of power was entirely legal by the laws of the Republic.


I'll believe that if you can cite the constitution of one nation that includes both a Parliament and a provision for someone to be named absolute ruler for life.

----------


## pendell

> I'll believe that if you can cite the constitution of one nation that includes both a Parliament and a provision for someone to be named absolute ruler for life.


 I think if we look at a country with a parliament  which is the sole branch of government we'll find there's nothing specifically prohibiting them from doing so. The precedent the Star Wars universe is built on is the Roman Republic, where one Octavian was granted a number of powers which made him effectively absolute ruler for life, though he never claimed the title, given what happened to Julius.  

I was about to launch into a great amount of detail but I realize we're stepping away from fictional universes and into real-life law and politics, which will invite the Wrath of Mod.      So I'm going to have to cut it short there.   

Still, as far as fictional universes go I'll point you to Piers Antony's  Bio of a Space Tyrant , in which the United States of Jupiter (a nation which exists within Jupiter's atmosphere using a kind of gravity bubble technology to float at the one-bar atmospheric level) calls a constitutional convention which abolishes the existing constitution and declares one individual human -- our protagonist -- to be the sole government of the USJ.  It is _technically_  possible to pull off something like that in an American-style system, the major safeguard being it takes 3/4 of the states to ratify, almost impossible to achieve. Palpatine has that supermajority at the end of EP.III however. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Mechalich

> Thus:  I have evidence from the novelization that being a Sith itself is not a crime and therefore Mace Windu is not authorized to simply kill any Sith out of hand, especially one whom he believes helpless and unarmed.


Ah, figures Matthew Stover would completely mangle the morality of Star Wars, it's his go to move (Stover doesn't believe Stat Wars contains 'good' or 'evil' which misses the point so far as to not be in the same galaxy anymore). I suppose that's canon then, regrettably but it's moronic. Whether or not being a Sith is punishable by death, being a Sith _should be_ a crime. There's any number of real-world organizations in which membership or declarations of loyalty are crimes after all (mostly nasty terrorist groups), the Sith are no exception.




> Still, as far as fictional universes go I'll point you to Piers Antony's Bio of a Space Tyrant , in which the United States of Jupiter (a nation which exists within Jupiter's atmosphere using a kind of gravity bubble technology to float at the one-bar atmospheric level) calls a constitutional convention which abolishes the existing constitution and declares one individual human -- our protagonist -- to be the sole government of the USJ. It is technically possible to pull off something like that in an American-style system, the major safeguard being it takes 3/4 of the states to ratify, almost impossible to achieve. Palpatine has that supermajority at the end of EP.III however.


That's more or less what happens in RotS. The Republic did possess a written constitution, but Palpatine rewrote it through something resembling a constitutional convention (which his supermajority allowed him to do more or less instantly). However, it generally appears that this didn't happen until _after_ he was proclaimed Emperor by acclimation, which ought to have still be illegal _at the moment he gave his speech_.

This is a general annoyance with regard to RotS, everything in the second half of the film happens so fast that it's difficult to say how the order of events actually unfolded, and in terms of the legality of various actions the precise order and certain things that may or may not of happened offscreen matter a great deal. Now, I imagine Lucas doesn't care, the moral thrust of the film is quite clear after all, but it can be frustrating when trying to extrapolate to how the political system of the GFFA actually works, because this incredibly significant event is so muddled.

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## Keltest

> Ah, figures Matthew Stover would completely mangle the morality of Star Wars, it's his go to move (Stover doesn't believe Stat Wars contains 'good' or 'evil' which misses the point so far as to not be in the same galaxy anymore). I suppose that's canon then, regrettably but it's moronic. Whether or not being a Sith is punishable by death, being a Sith _should be_ a crime. There's any number of real-world organizations in which membership or declarations of loyalty are crimes after all (mostly nasty terrorist groups), the Sith are no exception.
> 
> 
> 
> That's more or less what happens in RotS. The Republic did possess a written constitution, but Palpatine rewrote it through something resembling a constitutional convention (which his supermajority allowed him to do more or less instantly). However, it generally appears that this didn't happen until _after_ he was proclaimed Emperor by acclimation, which ought to have still be illegal _at the moment he gave his speech_.
> 
> This is a general annoyance with regard to RotS, everything in the second half of the film happens so fast that it's difficult to say how the order of events actually unfolded, and in terms of the legality of various actions the precise order and certain things that may or may not of happened offscreen matter a great deal. Now, I imagine Lucas doesn't care, the moral thrust of the film is quite clear after all, but it can be frustrating when trying to extrapolate to how the political system of the GFFA actually works, because this incredibly significant event is so muddled.


The whole point of the actual wars is to make sure it doesn't work at all. If it worked, Palpatine would have been removed from his role as chancellor well before the war's end, among other things.

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## dancrilis

> Palpatine engineered a years long civil war where one of the specific goals was to eliminate and replace the senators who would be opposed to his power grab. Saying he did it legally is sort of like saying you won an election legally by murdering your opponent the day before the voting started.





> You think the guy who instigated a civil war wanted to do things by the book? Seriously


I think you both might be missing my point - Sidious may have engaged in actions of dubious legality, however those actions were not known to the Senate nor was the connection between Sidious and Palpatine.

As for as the galaxy at large would be concerned Palpatine became Emperor with the backing of the republic senate and within the law - and that could have value in the formative years of the Empire, as such Palpatine had a reason to try to attempt to publically do things by the book - and killing the Jedi without them giving him cause would have been a step away from the book.

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## Keltest

> I think you both might be missing my point - Sidious may have engaged in actions of dubious legality, however those actions were not known to the Senate nor was the connection between Sidious and Palpatine.
> 
> As for as the galaxy at large would be concerned Palpatine became Emperor with the backing of the republic senate and within the law - and that could have value in the formative years of the Empire, as such Palpatine had a reason to try to attempt to publically do things by the book - and killing the Jedi without them giving him cause would have been a step away from the book.


That the senate ultimately chose to ignore the law (because he engineered it as such) doesnt make what he did legal, it just means nobody tried to stop him.

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## Mechalich

> I think you both might be missing my point - Sidious may have engaged in actions of dubious legality, however those actions were not known to the Senate nor was the connection between Sidious and Palpatine.
> 
> As for as the galaxy at large would be concerned Palpatine became Emperor with the backing of the republic senate and within the law - and that could have value in the formative years of the Empire, as such Palpatine had a reason to try to attempt to publically do things by the book - and killing the Jedi without them giving him cause would have been a step away from the book.


One thing the Senate did know is that Palpatine ordered the assault on the Jedi Temple, which would seem to be a pretty clear case of violating the law and engaging in some pretty obvious war crimes. I mean, the claim that the entirety of the Jedi Order attached to the GAR - thousands of masters, knights, and padawans - was all engaged in a conspiracy to overthrow the Republic is already extremely dubious - but many of the occupants of the Temple were initiates, younglings, and Service Corps members, and even maintenance staff, all of whom are presumably noncombatants. And we know they weren't spared because the film very clearly shows Anakin killing a bunch of them. This happened in the heart of Coruscant too, so it was very obvious, I mean Bail Organa witnessed the event in person. Heck, Palpatine can't even claim that some Clone Commander went over the line and led the assault on his own initiative and then conveniently have said commander executed. Vader led the assault and continued to serve as Palpatine's right hand. So that action, at least, doesn't seem possible to hide under a veneer of legality.

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## Peelee

> One thing the Senate did know is that Palpatine ordered the assault on the Jedi Temple, which would seem to be a pretty clear case of violating the law and engaging in some pretty obvious war crimes.


I think The Clone Wars, at the very least, showed us that war crimes are pretty rampant with little to no oversight. IIRC The Mandalorian told us that Moff Gideon was recorded as being executed for war crimes, but, well....

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## Fyraltari

> I think The Clone Wars, at the very least, showed us that war crimes are pretty rampant with little to no oversight.


Season 1 literally has Cad Bane disqguise a gun fight as Senate Guards opening fire on war protesters, meaning it's apparently a common occurrence. This galaxy is ****ed, man.



> IIRC The Mandalorian told us that Moff Gideon was recorded as being executed for war crimes, but, well....


Yeah, how did that happen by the way, did he have a twin brother or what? And what was the point of including that bit during his introduction?

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## Grim Portent

Remember that even before Palpatine became Chancellor the Republic was not an enlightened democracy, it had long since degenerated into a corrupt and authoritarian system in which power resided in the hands of a few plutocrats, kleptocrats and autocrats who masqueraded as democratic representatives.

This is a Galaxy where it was fine for the megacorps, who had seats in the Senate, to blockade worlds that owed them money, and where they could illegally use lethal force without much fear of legal reprisal. Many senators were openly corrupt and dismissive of concepts like freedom or equality.

Palpatine did not have to push hard to turn it into an empire, it was already barely a democracy.


I would generally assume that the genocide of the Jedi was technically legal, in that killing large amounts of people on flimsy justification was already largely acceptable, and may have been included in the various wartime reforms with the intended target being seperatists.

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## Keltest

> Remember that even before Palpatine became Chancellor the Republic was not an enlightened democracy, it had long since degenerated into a corrupt and authoritarian system in which power resided in the hands of a few plutocrats, kleptocrats and autocrats who masqueraded as democratic representatives.
> 
> This is a Galaxy where it was fine for the megacorps, who had seats in the Senate, to blockade worlds that owed them money, and where they could illegally use lethal force without much fear of legal reprisal. Many senators were openly corrupt and dismissive of concepts like freedom or equality.
> 
> Palpatine did not have to push hard to turn it into an empire, it was already barely a democracy.
> 
> 
> I would generally assume that the genocide of the Jedi was technically legal, in that killing large amounts of people on flimsy justification was already largely acceptable, and may have been included in the various wartime reforms with the intended target being seperatists.


I mean, it came from Chancelor "I will make it legal" Palpatine, who wasnt even Chancelor when he said that particular line.

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## Sapphire Guard

Unless somebody here has a law degree from University of Coruscant, legal argument will only get us so far. GFFA laws would necessarily be different from ours.

*Spoiler: later in the Clone Wars*
Show

Ahsoka's trial is complete nonsense from earth laws standpoint. Senator  with giant conflict of interest as your lawyer? Chancellor of the Republic (also with giant conflict of interest) as the judge? Barging in to submit new evidence just before the verdict is read out like it's an auction? 


If Mace goes to trial, the case hinges on whether Palpatine is able to stack the jury or not, not the legalities. On the facts, assuming an earthlike trial with reasonably fair procedures and an impartial judgement.

 He has a compelling case for being in fear of his life (the corpses of the rest of the arresting party). Can he convince a jury that he was acting in self defence? As we've seen in the thread, depends on who is in the jury. Could go either way. 

Clone Wars fairly frequently has fake surrenders. Either it isn't a war crime in the GFFA, or the TCW writers are not interested in the legalities.




> Season 1 literally has Cad Bane disguise a gun fight as Senate Guards opening fire on war protesters, meaning it's apparently a common occurrence.


Wait, what? I don't remember this.

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## dancrilis

> Wait, what? I don't remember this.


Here, stated around 1:13-1:20:
*Spoiler: Video*
Show

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## runeghost

> I mean, if he wanted to bring down Sidious, all he has to do is email the Jedi temple and say Sidious is Palpatine.


*Spoiler: for later in the show*
Show

 That's close to what Maul tries with Ahsoka during the final Clone Wars finale. He explains the whole plot to her (and now I need to rewatch and see if he really does reveal Sidious as Palatine...). And she doesn't quite buy it. Or more accurately she does seem to believe him to an extent, but overestimated Anakin and underestimated Sidious.

Structurally that final finale is just brilliant.

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## Mechalich

> *Spoiler: for later in the show*
> Show
> 
>  That's close to what Maul tries with Ahsoka during the final Clone Wars finale. He explains the whole plot to her (and now I need to rewatch and see if he really does reveal Sidious as Palatine...). And she doesn't quite buy it. Or more accurately she does seem to believe him to an extent, but overestimated Anakin and underestimated Sidious.
> 
> Structurally that final finale is just brilliant.


*Spoiler*
Show

It's not actually clear that Maul 100% _knows_ Sidious and Palpatine are the same person. He understands that Sidious exercises control over Palpatine (and the Chancellor's Office more broadly), but he clearly doesn't understand the entirety of the plan - ex. he's not aware of how Order 66 will unfold - and may be in the dark about other things. For instance even if he knows that Palpatine and Sidious mostly appear the same (though this gets into the question of whether or not the Emperor's post-lightning-to-the-face appearance was he true appearance all along), it's always possible that Chancellor Palpatine isn't actually Sidious but is instead a Clone, a Changeling, or some other kind of double. The latter case actually has a lot going for it because Maul, being Force sensitive and able to detect Sidious from some distance away would presumably wonder how in the galaxy Sidious can walk the halls of the Senate surrounded by all those Jedi and never get caught.

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## hamishspence

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> It's not actually clear that Maul 100% _knows_ Sidious and Palpatine are the same person. He understands that Sidious exercises control over Palpatine (and the Chancellor's Office more broadly), but he clearly doesn't understand the entirety of the plan - ex. he's not aware of how Order 66 will unfold - and may be in the dark about other things. For instance even if he knows that Palpatine and Sidious mostly appear the same (though this gets into the question of whether or not the Emperor's post-lightning-to-the-face appearance was he true appearance all along), it's always possible that Chancellor Palpatine isn't actually Sidious but is instead a Clone, a Changeling, or some other kind of double. The latter case actually has a lot going for it because Maul, being Force sensitive and able to detect Sidious from some distance away would presumably wonder how in the galaxy Sidious can walk the halls of the Senate surrounded by all those Jedi and never get caught.


I was under the impression that in TPM:

*Spoiler*
Show

if you look closely at the two scenes, you can tell that Maul and Palpatine's conversation "at last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have our revenge" takes place on the balcony of Palpatine's private apartments, seen when Amidala consults with him.

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## Sapphire Guard

Huh. Interesting.

*Spoiler: Later TCW*
Show

Maul doesn't say who Palps is despite ample opportunity, and even if he did, it just raises the question of why not do it sooner. If he was trying to stay in the shadows it makes some sense, but the first thing he does is send a message to the Jedi Temple anyway (when he burns that village after first getting his mind back).

He just says that Anakin is the key, nothing actually useful. And it appears he got that from a random future vision, not any knowledge of Palp's plans.

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## dancrilis

> I saw the trailer for _Tales of the Jedi_.
> 
> A) A Dooku and Qui-Gon story? Neat. Pretty sure they'll make Dooku already villainous, though.
> B) They really can't let go of the late Old Republic/Empire era, can't they?
> C) "By the creators of _The Clone Wars_ and _Bad Batch_" wow, _Rebels_ and _Resistance_ get no respect.


Just watched these, they probably don't need their own trend but I will say the following - by and large fairly decent.

*Spoiler: Episode 1*
Show


Largely noting in it, Ashoka's parents were happy she was born, then she doesn't get eaten by a tiger and the village elder proclaims her to be a jedi - kindof sucks for her parents I guess.



*Spoiler: Episode 2,3 and 4*
Show


A nice set of stories within Dooku's life, he has darkness in him but you can tell where it comes from - fed up with corruption in the Senate and perceived corruption in the council (for 2 and 3).

For 4 it was more where 2 and 3 ultimately lead him - and answering the question what happened to Yaddle (which I would have thought would have raised a couple of red flags with the Jedi). 
Did Like Yaddle's character I will say even if the story required her to be a bit daft. 



Probably better not to watch this until after finishing The Clone Wars, as this episode referenced things that happen at the end of season 7.
*Spoiler: Episode 5*
Show


Dubious about Anakin's training but did like where he explains to her why he was training her that way and one can't really argue with results.



*Spoiler: Episode 6*
Show


Ashoka after during the Empire before she joins the fight - didn't think much of it but quite liked the design of the Inquisitor and also that Ashoka in no way struggled against them.
Thought it was a bit daft to immediately trust the imperial loyalist with the identity (or face at least) of a senior member of the rebellion -but meh.

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## Fyraltari

*Season 5, Episode 15: Shades of Reason*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

we open at death Watch's base on planet Zambar, as Maul and his many new lieutenants observe an holo-map of Manadalore's capital: Sindari. Pre Vizsla has listed key targets. However he's worried that a direct assault would turn the people against them. This isn't Maul's plan, however: he wants the criminals to attack these places and cause as much mayhem as possible to undermine the Duchess's credibility and allow Death Watch to play heroes and "arrest" them. Once out of earshot, Bo-Katan tells Vizsla she has no trust in "those monsters". Vizsla reassures her that once he's in power, he'll execute Maul and the crime bosses, forcing the rabble to scatter and leaving them in charge. Meanwhile Savage tells his master he doesn't trust Vizsla, Maul agrees but he's afraid of drawing the attention of the Jedi by ruling openly so he needs Vizsla to be the face of his regime, if only temporarily, Savage counters that they could just bribe someone else to do the job once they're in control of of the planet. Maul congratulates him on his quick learning. The all take off from the planet.

On Mandalore a routine inspection of some suspicious shipment turns wrong very quickly as the containers are actually full of Pykes and black Sun goons. The Pyke leader helpfully informs the guard that the docks belong to his syndicate, now. Some new advisor informs Satine of what's going on. She's got a nice new outfit for the season. The guard is dangerously outnumbered and the people demand action. Satine has no answer. Things get worse when the Black Sun leader attacks a plaza claiming all the people present as slaves to the "Black sun clan" (wait it's a clan, now?). In the evening the Pyke leader and some BS goons attack Mandalore's largest (I assume) bank. this time they're met with organized resistance from the Mandalorian guard (good to see governments everywhere have the same priorities?), but unfortunately for them, the Pykes have back-up in the form of Savage Oppress and his double-balded red lightsaber. Meanwhile Satine is addressing the crowd massed in the palace courtyard telling them to stay calm. Death Watch jetpack their way onto her platform (she stops her guards from attacking them)  calling her weak. She immediately accuses vizsla of being responsible for the attacks, which he naturally denies , telling the people they are here to save the city from "these intergalactic gangsters" (hmm, I wonder how much crime is going on in satellite galaxies) and tells the crowd this is a war that "they" (as in, Mandalore) will win. The crowd cheers him on. Satine says listening to him will destroy Mandalore as they know it, but he says there is no time for discussion when they are under attack. He makes a show of hovering above the crowd telling them the name Mandalore will strike fear into the gangsters' hearts. Satine looks on helplessly as the crow chants... I think they're saying "Vizsla" but it's very hard to parse. It's the most logical thing, anyway. Vizsla calls Maul who tells him to be sure to put on a good show as they move to the next phase.

At the docks, the thugs are lock up a few Mandalorian soldiers inside containers. As they begin despair at their powerlessness, they can hear fighting outside and the doors open, revealing DW taking the goons prisoners (with no casualty on either side apparently). "What's going on? We're Death Watch and we're here to rescue you. Aren't you a little short for a Mandalorian warrior* You have my thanks, soldier." Bo-Katan leads the group rescuing Mandalorian civilians from the slavers on the plaza, non-lethally subduing the goons just as they were about to hurt a couple of children. She tells the kids they are safe and helps them out of their hiding place as the people around them marvel at Death Watch saving them. At the bank, guards are attempting to chase Savage and a couple Pykes running away with the money. Oppress even throws a random woman over a balcony to force them to stop and rescue her. They catch up just in time to witness him dueling Vizsla and his Darksaber. Savage takes a dive and Vizsla gets to say "take him away, captain!" In the morning there's again a crowd in front of the palace chanting Pre Vizsla's name, loud enough to be heard in the throne room. The new advisor guy tells satine Death watch is marching in the Palace in force, but she says there's no point in trying to stop them when the people are on their side. Pre barges in and Satine refuses to cause a bloodbath, surrendering immediately to Vizsla as he monologues about resurrecting their warrior past. Come the evening, Death watch is addressing the crowd in front of the palace. (Is it still the same crowd, have they been there for thirty hours plus?) They put Savage and the other two leaders on a stage (where are all the Hutt goons in all of this? the whole epsidoe, there aren't any Weeqay, Gamorrean or Quarren to be seen) and Bo-Katan claims Satine and the new Mandalorian leaders fled while Death watch were arresting them. She instroduces Vizsla as the new Prime Minister (I'm guessing he's planning to wait a little before claiming the title of Mandalore). The people love it.

Of course, Satine hasn't fled, but his once again an unwilling guest in her own jail. Something her new neighbour seems to find delightful, and with reason since it's none other than her treacherous former Prime Minister, Almec. He claims that his black market dealing were the reason the people kept trusting her for so long and accuses _her_ of betraying _him_. Dude, you tried to murder her. She says that some sacrifices are necessary for freedom and that resorting to corruption was not a solution. Almec simply laughs and tell her to enjoy her "freedom" and that he looks forward to all the time they'll have together to debate one another. Meanwhile, Pre Vizsla welcomes Maul to the throne room. The take-over is going smoothly and Satine is an excellent bait for Kenobi. Once he's dead, they can go they separate ways (Wait, what about dooku, wasn't killing him, also on the list?). Maul says he's forgetting that now that they have a base and an army, they are ready to expand, but the Manadalorian doesn't actually care about that, or Maul's vision. Bo-Katan points her gun at his head while some warriors take away his weapon and cuff his hands. Vizsla tells him not to worry. He still intends to go through with their deal and take out Kenobi, but starting with now, Vizsla calls the shots. Vizsla parades Maul in front of the crowd (waren't they tired of going back and forth to the palace?) announcing the capture of the last of the crime lords. he says Maul is living proof that Satine's policy of pacificism only encourages agression toward stheir planet. Therefore it is time to restore the Old Traditions so that no one may ever threaten them again. The crowd still loves it.

Later, Maul and Savage (who are in the same cell!) are planning their next move. Maul points out that while Vizsla has popular support, he isn't Mandalore's "anointed leader" yet, so they may still replace him. Savage wnats to escape immediately, but Maul has a better idea: this is the ideal place to recruit Vizsla's successor as he's sure to have thrown the Duchess's government in here too. Consequently, he requests from Savage a tour of the facility. Oppress obliges by Force-flexing until the glass walls of their cell break. Even without weapon, they causally dispose of any warrior foolish enough to get in their way and make it to Satine's cell. She calls Maul a monster, so he says he wants nothing from her (yet) but would like to know where the other leaders are. She tells him Vizsla has terminated all who wouldn't side with him, so the only ones left are Almec and her. She also says that Almec is just as corrupt and vile as Maul who, of course, considers this an excellent recommendation. He thanks her for her cooperation and goes to Almec, he's very glad to learn Almec was the former Prime Minister and that he was involved with the black market. Satine interjects that Almec caused the deaths of children, but the Sith don't care one wit about that. Maul makes his offer to Almec who is impressed by their power but doubtful they can take on Vizsla by the two of them. Maul intends to exploit his bounds of honour by challenging him to single-combat. Almec confirms that victory would earn Maul the loyalty of Death Watch.

Later on the three of them barge in the throne room and Maul issues his challenge so that only the strongest shall rule Mandalore. At this, most of Vizsla's inner circle lower their weapons and look expectantly at their leader. He agrees and has Bo-Katan return his weapon to Maul. I've got to say, it's a really nice fight. Vizsla charges in and has Maul on the defensive for a moment, but once the sith manages to push back, he's forced to use all his arsenal (gun, grenades and especially his jetpack) to keep the Dathomorian away while taking potshots at him, he even manages to graz his skin with a shuriken launcher. Maul answers by cranking up the aggression and forcing Vizsla into close combat, eventually managing to take out his jetpack (and therfeor his mobility advantage). The Mandalorian manages to distract his opponent by tangling his robot legs with his grappling hook long enough to shoot his lightsaber out of his hands. However Maul manges to grab Vizsla's sword hand and punches him repetedly before breaking his arm and throwing him across the room to the foot of the throne. He tries to crawl away from Maul, catching the look of contempt on his lieutenants' faces, But Maul just beats the tar out of him before Force-Pulling the Darksaber to his hand. Vizsla closes his eyes. "Like you said. Only the strongest shall rule." Bo-Katan looks on in shock and horror as MAul beheads her former and claims the Darksaber and leadership. About half the warriors present kneel to their new warlord, bu tBo-Katan says that no outsider will ever rule Mandalore. Maul orders her and the others executed, she calls his followers traitors. "Unfortunately for you, history will not see it that way" Nice meme, but I have my doubts, bro. Bo-Katan and her allies flee the palace, covering their escape with grenades.

Almec addresses the crowd outside the palace (seriously, do theses people just live there 24/7, or what?). He claims that the "so-called pacifist" Satine has murdered Pre Vizsla, the true hero of Mandalore. He tells them Satine is under arrest and Vizsla made him Prime Minister with his dying breath. he acknowledges his "checkered past" but promises to take full responsibility for them. This actually works, apparently. He reassures them that they will re-establish Mandalore's warrior traditions and "will be strong". He and his Death Watch... escort walk back into the throne room, where MAul is waiting for them. Almec says he'll have a new administration ready in no time, but Maul tells him to choose his underlings wisely: he will be held personally responsible for any failure. Almec asks his new master if he requires anything in particular, but Maul just tell him to go rule his (Maul's) people and makes a mean face at the camera.

*the DW guy is standing below the soldier. I'm funny, shut up.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

This was a great episode, Mandalore is as gorgeous as always and they are getting very creatiive with the "camerawork". The duel is very well shot making it look very energetic and the camera movement as Maul kills Vizsla uses Bo-Katan to hid e the actual killing blow, which is clever censorship in that it makes it look like he's striking her instead, which is exactly how she's feeling at the moment.

I love that Maul's plan is just... the Clone War in miniature. With the thugs as the Separatists, Death Watch as the clones (fittingly enough), Satine as the Jedi and Vizsla as Palpatine. What he apparently didn't notice is that he accidentally cast himself as Dooku. If Vizsla had been clever enough to have them killed there and then (why didn't he?) would he have egg on his face. IOt's a bit odd none of the Hutt-space mooks showed up this episode, considering the trouble they went to secure their allegiance last episode. Especially since Pykes at the docks, Black Sun at the plaza and Savage with Huttspace goons at the banks would have been a natural way to break up the team. A neat detail I only caught on second viewing: while Maul is back to calling Savage "Apprentice" he either doesn't notice or care that Savage is back to calling him "brother". Try as he might, he's just not as evil as Sidious (then again, who is?)

Bo-Katan gets some focus this episode. Although I don't think anyone's said her name yet, she gets to be something else than Vizsla's sounding board. And her defining trait is... xenophobia! She calls the gangsters monsters (when Death Watch is out there burning down villages for the crime of politely asking them to leave) and is enraged at the notion of an outsider ruling Mandalore. Hardly surprising coming from a terrorist who wants to return her homeland to a perceived past state of glory. That's the thing about these "we have to be strong" types, when their own logic says they shouldn't be the ones in charge they don't seem to stick to them as closely.

Almec is just a snake, despite his claims that his crimes were necessary to help Satine's regime it's obvious he has no loyalty or principle besides base ambition and will side with anyone and espouse any rhetoric that can benefit him personally.

The true protagonist of this episode is Vizsla. The exiled governor of Concordia got to have his dream come true for a couple days and then lose it as a direct consequences of the choices he made to realize it. It's be tragic if he weren't such a git. I think the character got better with each appearance, from a stereotypical villain in his introduction to the vaguely sympathetic figure we see here. It's a shame we never got to see his fallout with Dooku. Even as a fighter he's improved: the guy who got his ass handed to him by Kenobi and struggled against Ahsoka would not have lasted this long against Maul. He's even given a dignified death as he accepts his defeat and acknowledges Maul's rule. Somewhat. Because here's the 1000$ question: did Pre Vizsla belive what he said? On the one had he never seems to as he not only does he keep talking about the warrior past of Mandalore, but his adherence to his cause cost him a comfortable job as governor of Concordia in exchange for living out of tents in the middle of nowhere. And he still kept at it when he could have made a successful career as a pirate or mercenary. And of course he accepts Maul's duel and the results thereof with grace.
On the other hand, his own logic of might make right means that after the Manadlorian Civil War he ought to have submitted to the New Mandalorians' way of doing things, since they had proven themselves stronger than the warriors instead he put on a friendly face and plotted behind Satine's back. Doesn't exactly scream "honourable" in my book. I wonder did he even fight in the Civil War? In this case, in order to be governor of Concordia he probably had to publicly renege his ethos (which again, doesn't sound that "honourable warrior" to me). As for his final duel with Maul note that he accepts it only after his men all look at him and that when he's defeated, he locks eye with his underlings, seeing the look of contempt on their face as he futilely tries to get away from Maul. now remember how he fled from Obi-Wan instead of fighting to the death or accepting the Jedi as a worthy leader. It looks to me like he accepted the duel because he knew that his authority would not recover from turning it down and accepted his death at Maul's hand because without his jetpack, with his broken arm and his men no longer backing him he literally had no other option to get out of there alive.
So, does he believe his own philosophy? I'd say yes, he genuinely believes it, but he's bind to his own hypocrisy. When Satine beats him, it doesn't count because she has "powerful allies", but _he_ can go get powerful allies to sneak his way into power and that's totally legitimate. He's not Almec, he won't sell out his principles for power, but he won't die for them either. You know who would die for their principles? Satine. I think Satine is much stronger than he is for it. Isn't it ironic?

And of course there's the main thing: for all his talk that the strong deserve to rule because they are strong and that he should rule, in order to get power he has to lie about his strength. He has to manufacture a crisis for him to solve when he really couldn't if it were real. Because that's the great lie of fascism. Fascism claims to be strong when it really isn't. Strength comes from unity, from moving on from your pains, from accepting your mistakes, recognizing your own flaws and working to correct them, from learning from others and embracing life. All of this anathema to fascism. Fascism as its core is refusing that you and yours (those you perceive as yours, anyway) have any flaw, that you could ever have done anything wrong, that what you wants isn't due to you. Fascists will claim that strength of arms justify everything and exalt their own nation as the strongest there is and themselves as the strongest of that nation and yet will spend all their time ruminating on a mythical past that was "taken from them" never acknowledging that, by their own logic, if they lost it, then they didn't deserve it in the first place. They refuse to learn from history and will make excuses for their predecessors whenever they can't bury their shames put of sight. They lie about history, they lie about their actions, they lie about their values, they lie about the world and they lie about any group they feel they can get away with slandering to amass support. And more importantly they lie about themselves, like death watch does here, they will lie continuously about their own strength and demons they conjured up to make themselves look bigger. They'll portray themselves as mighty heroes, all that stands between the shining [insert nation here] civilization and the barbarian hordes and the weak-willed/corrupt current leadership, people who truly care about you and the children (especially the children), but in truth they're just using you for power or wealth and will make you life actively worse. Because for all their bluster they only ever have one strength: the fear of others.


Next up: *The Lawless*, probably supposed to be Maul, but frankly that could describe a lot of characters on this show.

----------


## Keltest

This is a cool episode, but its another one that really makes you question how Satine and co actually won the civil war the last time. Mandalore apparently lacks any sort of dedicated planetary militia, and Satine doesnt really seem to have the kind of overwhelming popular support that would allow her to win in the long term against Death Watch in spite of the lack of military power.

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## Fyraltari

> This is a cool episode, but its another one that really makes you question how Satine and co actually won the civil war the last time. Mandalore apparently lacks any sort of dedicated planetary militia, and Satine doesnt really seem to have the kind of overwhelming popular support that would allow her to win in the long term against Death Watch in spite of the lack of military power.


Well, it's been more than a decade. It think it's fair to assume that Satine would have spent most of that time demilitarizing and that she may have enjoyed greater support at the beginning of her reign when the revolution was fresh in everyone's mind. The recent events (death watch attacks with two members of her government being implicated, the death of a third, the reveal of Almec's corruption which resulted in children being poisonned to death and who knows what else over the years) probably severely undermined the confidence the people had in her leadership. Each of these alone would be enough to destabilize a government, all of them in less than a year is a lot to take.

Hey, I just remembered, Satine has a nephew. I hope he shows up next episode.

----------


## Peelee

> Just watched these, they probably don't need their own trend but I will say the following - by and large fairly decent.
> 
> *Spoiler: Episode 1*
> Show
> 
> 
> Largely noting in it, Ashoka's parents were happy she was born, then she doesn't get eaten by a tiger and the village elder proclaims her to be a jedi - kindof sucks for her parents I guess.
> 
> 
> ...


The first three episodes did not fill me with confidence for the show. They were pretty meh. The last three activated the hyperdrive and launched far ahead in quality. This is some good damn Star Wars. The first three weren't even bad, just.... Alright. And pretty heavy handed, to boot. Second half more than made up for that.

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## Mechalich

> This is a cool episode, but its another one that really makes you question how Satine and co actually won the civil war the last time. Mandalore apparently lacks any sort of dedicated planetary militia, and Satine doesnt really seem to have the kind of overwhelming popular support that would allow her to win in the long term against Death Watch in spite of the lack of military power.


She may have had support from some of the other, more militant Mandalorian clans, such as the ones who show up in Rebels, only to have them abandon her and her pacifistic policies following victory. 

Alternatively, since she seems to represent Mandalore's economic, rather than military, elite, she may have utilized combat droids or foreign mercenaries, neither or which are readily available at this time.

----------


## dancrilis

> The first three episodes did not fill me with confidence for the show. They were pretty meh. The last three activated the hyperdrive and launched far ahead in quality. This is some good damn Star Wars. The first three weren't even bad, just.... Alright. And pretty heavy handed, to boot. Second half more than made up for that.


Kindof agreed but think that 2 and 3 were needed to setup 4 - and had to be somewhat heavy handed given the timeframe they were working too, I would also not think much of 6 over all.

Think 4 was the best 5 was the runner up and the rest were overall fine.

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## Sapphire Guard

Tales has the same issues as Clone Wars, the complete inability to not foreshadow things no matter how much it hurts the story.

Re the Episode, it's the same as last time, Mandalore falls way too quickly and easily to be very credible. Each of these things has enough room for its own arc, although I suspect that would make this too close to 'the Maul show.'

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## Fyraltari

> The Episode, it's the same as last time, Mandalore falls way too quickly and easily to be very credible. Each of these things has enough room for its own arc, although I suspect that would make this too close to 'the Maul show.'


The fact that it happens in the course of two days is kind of ridiculous, yes. Logically there should have been a string of attacks over weeks, even months for the discontent to grow and Death Watch to gain support. But I suppose they didn't feel like they had enough room for it in one episode or in-universe as this must be pretty close to the end of the war.

----------


## Grim Portent

Timescale and event compression is pretty normal for storytelling. Where the episode fails is that it doesn't really make any allusions or statements to things happening that aren't shown directly, which messes with the pacing of events making them feel fast.

They could've had the classic spinning newspaper headlines of DW saving people, or a highlight reel of them catching criminals if the budget permits. Stuff that shows things were happening and establishes a timeskip took place. Doesn't need to be multiple episodes, just better establishing of information and timescales within the episodes. Would've been fun to have the newscaster voiceover guy that narrates the opening to some episodes do some narration about the political shifts on Mandalore while showing a highlight reel broadcast on the Republics news.

On the other hand, as I've said before Star Wars is a sci fi veneer over westerns, gangster movies and other genres. Events are paced as if they were effecting a town or city, sometimes a country, rather than a planet. Substitute the planet with a town in the 1800s, with an ineffectual mayor whose government has proven corrupt on multiple occasions, who has arrested the most popular member of their cabinet because of such corruption, and then have a bunch of out of town gangs show up and cause havoc with the police being absolutely useless. Then some local toughs with a bad reputation who've been hammering on about being 'tough on crime' roll in out of their pubs and clubs in the bad part of town, do the police's job and then propose the mayor stands down and their own leader runs for election to replace her, except they just do a show of hands of the townsfolk in the town hall. The timescale feels a lot more reasonable on that kind of scale.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Timescale and event compression is pretty normal for storytelling. Where the episode fails is that it doesn't really make any allusions or statements to things happening that aren't shown directly, which messes with the pacing of events making them feel fast.
> 
> They could've had the classic spinning newspaper headlines of DW saving people, or a highlight reel of them catching criminals if the budget permits. Stuff that shows things were happening and establishes a timeskip took place. Doesn't need to be multiple episodes, just better establishing of information and timescales within the episodes. Would've been fun to have the newscaster voiceover guy that narrates the opening to some episodes do some narration about the political shifts on Mandalore while showing a highlight reel broadcast on the Republics news.


Which is what I assumed they were going for with throwing three different attacks in quick succession. Until they had Death watch show up to stop them showing that less than a day had passed. I think implying a larger timespan would have been best, really.




> On the other hand, as I've said before Star Wars is a sci fi veneer over westerns, gangster movies and other genres. Events are paced as if they were effecting a town or city, sometimes a country, rather than a planet. Substitute the planet with a town in the 1800s, with an ineffectual mayor whose government has proven corrupt on multiple occasions, who has arrested the most popular member of their cabinet because of such corruption, and then have a bunch of out of town gangs show up and cause havoc with the police being absolutely useless. Then some local toughs with a bad reputation who've been hammering on about being 'tough on crime' roll in out of their pubs and clubs in the bad part of town, do the police's job and then propose the mayor stands down and their own leader runs for election to replace her, except they just do a show of hands of the townsfolk in the town hall. The timescale feels a lot more reasonable on that kind of scale.


I mean, this is the one time where the scale matches up. this is all explicitly taking place in the capital city of Mandalore. I guess we can just assume that the rest of the planet (which, given the dome-city-vs-barren-plain looks, might not be very populated) just follows suit or that they're doing more of the same in the rest of the cities but on a lesser-scale and without any of the named characters present.

----------


## Mechalich

> I mean, this is the one time where the scale matches up. this is all explicitly taking place in the capital city of Mandalore. I guess we can just assume that the rest of the planet (which, given the dome-city-vs-barren-plain looks, might not be very populated) just follows suit or that they're doing more of the same in the rest of the cities but on a lesser-scale and without any of the named characters present.


I'd add that, in the traditional case of coup in a small state, taking control of the capital is sometimes all that's necessary. The provinces and rural areas may simply fall in line as they lack the will or ability to resist. 

Star Wars does have a storytelling device to facilitate this sort of compression as well: planetary shields. Without a planetary shield anyone in orbit above the planet with a ship big enough to mount a turbolaser can precisely target and destroy any structure that isn't buried underground. If the planetary shield network was controlled from the capital, and Death Watch successfully took control of it along with the orbital space above the planet, ground based resistance is essentially impossible above the guerilla level.

----------


## Grim Portent

There's also questions about how Mandalore actually works as a nation under Satine. It seems to be a near absolute-Monarchy propped up by the good will of the people, with the only real checks on the monarchs power being Satine's general benevolence and the threat of popular revolt. Her advisors and subordinates are appointed by her or are hereditary nobility, not answerable to the people in any direct way.

If we extrapolate from this and say that Mandalore has more or less always run kind of like this, with hereditary overlords with a veneer of legitimacy from lineage and military meritocracy, then the people have no real experience with actually good governance. Popular will brought Satine to power because the people got sick of warlords killing people who refused to submit to them, and the warlords ran out of soldiers willing to kill protestors and either fled, got arrested or publicly switched sides. Satine is essentially the same sort of ruler, but with pacifism, rhetoric and loyal citizens replacing combat skill and loyal soldiers. The populace of a lot of parts of Mandalorian space probably noticed little difference beyond the boots on their necks no longer being backed by guns.

Problem is that since Satine's powerbase consists entirely of the popular will of the people, and a decade is plenty of time for people to start getting rose tinted glasses about the past, she's vulnerable to anyone who can gather populist support. There's no elections to divert political challenges through, no debates to try and win the people back, and she's not willing to use lethal force against insurrectionists like Deathwatch.

If Mandalore under Satine had restructured as something like a Parliamentary Democracy with the monarch as the executive, an elected prime minister and a semi-elected cabinet, then Vizsla and Deathwatch would have a harder time competing with other populist militants for the same slice of supporters.


EDIT: This is a ****ing weird thing to say, but outside the Senate and the CIS parliament, the most accountable ruler we've seen is bloody Jabba. He's the de facto ruler of Hutt Space, but the other families on the council actually have a say even if they mostly follow his lead. That's more than we get shown for any other monarch in the Galaxy as far as I recall. No one else seems to have any kind of lords council, parliament, elected cabinet ministers or anything like that.

----------


## Fyraltari

Two things I forgot to note from last time.
- Maul refrained from using the Force during his duel, except at the very end to pull the Darksaber to him and finish Vizsla off after he had him thouroughly beaten. I think this is clever because this way, no Mandalorian can accuse him of cheating even if they don't have rules against using magic in a duel (in KOTOR II, they did) and by using the Force at the end he gets to imply (I beat your leader while giving myself a handicap, that's how good I actually am).
- Maul's little cabinet meeting at the end featured none of his new criminal lieutenants. How come? 



> There's also questions about how Mandalore actually works as a nation under Satine. It seems to be a near absolute-Monarchy propped up by the good will of the people, with the only real checks on the monarchs power being Satine's general benevolence and the threat of popular revolt. Her advisors and subordinates are appointed by her or are hereditary nobility, not answerable to the people in any direct way.


Since, in season 3, Almec had her "arrested" for treason, it appears there are some legal limits on her authority.




> If we extrapolate from this and say that Mandalore has more or less always run kind of like this, with hereditary overlords with a veneer of legitimacy from lineage and military meritocracy, then the people have no real experience with actually good governance. Popular will brought Satine to power because the people got sick of warlords killing people who refused to submit to them, and the warlords ran out of soldiers willing to kill protestors and either fled, got arrested or publicly switched sides. Satine is essentially the same sort of ruler, but with pacifism, rhetoric and loyal citizens replacing combat skill and loyal soldiers. The populace of a lot of parts of Mandalorian space probably noticed little difference beyond the boots on their necks no longer being backed by guns.
> 
> Problem is that since Satine's powerbase consists entirely of the popular will of the people, and a decade is plenty of time for people to start getting rose tinted glasses about the past, she's vulnerable to anyone who can gather populist support. There's no elections to divert political challenges through, no debates to try and win the people back, and she's not willing to use lethal force against insurrectionists like Deathwatch.


Agreed, although she does have plenty of soldiers. Some more loyal than others.




> If Mandalore under Satine had restructured as something like a Parliamentary Democracy with the monarch as the executive, an elected prime minister and a semi-elected cabinet, then Vizsla and Deathwatch would have a harder time competing with other populist militants for the same slice of supporters.


Hell, why keep a monarch?



> This is a ****ing weird thing to say, but outside the Senate and the CIS parliament, the most accountable ruler we've seen is bloody Jabba. He's the de facto ruler of Hutt Space, but the other families on the council actually have a say even if they mostly follow his lead. That's more than we get shown for any other monarch in the Galaxy as far as I recall. No one else seems to have any kind of lords council, parliament, elected cabinet ministers or anything like that.


That's not the way I read the Hutt council. I get the feeling each one is master of their own domain, but since Jabba is the most powerful, they all follow his lead in matters affecting all of them. In internal issues, I assume they all just keep out of each other's domains.

Anyway...

*Season 5, Episode 16: The Lawless*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

We open with a tribute to the memory of Ian Abercrombie, the voice of Darth Sidious on this show who died during the production of season 5. I am not familiar with the man beyond his work on this show, but he did an excellent job.

I usually don't comment on the littel "proverbs" at the beginning of each episode because they're frankly not worth it, but... "Morality separates heroes from villains." Really? Getting the feeling someone is crapping the bottom of the barrel, there.

We truly open in prison with Satine being rescued... By her nephew Korkie. Called it? Also, damn the kid grew up a lot since last time, went from 13 to 22 in eight months or something. And who should be with him but Bo-Katan herself? Satine calles her "Bo" (like she calls Obi-Wan "Obi"). She's helping because "the enemy of my enemy..." However Satine says the two of them weren't always enemies, and maybe they don't have to be anymore. Outside the prison they meet up with... let's call them loyalist Death Watch warriors, as well as a trio of armed Mandalorian civilians (one bald man and two women, one blonde, one brunette. Are those Korkie's roommates from the academy? I think they are, he says they've already taken risks to help Satine out before.) Satine wants to make a call, but all communications to outside the city are being jammed. They all leave the prison but are spotted and pursued by Maulite Death Watch. The Maulites have painted their armor red and their helmets sport scratch marks, reminiscent of the sigil of Clan Vizsla. Bo-Katan and her crew put up a good fight, but the Duchess's speeder is hit and semi-crashes in the spaceport, Satine runs out, commlink in hand, trying to get a good signal (relatable. There's even a measure of that with little bars and everything.) She manages to send a message to Obi-Wan but is captured (alongside Korkie) by warrior who I assume is the leader of Maul's Death Watch. His helmet sports a crown of horns just like Maul's. In addition to the fact that the Maulites changed their armor colors from the traditional dark blue that the loyalists stilll wear to a crimson red, this makes it look like they're really onboard with the new management. It alos implies something of a timeskip.

At the Jedi Temple, Yoda and Ki-Adi-Mundi show Obi-Wan Satine's message. She tells him she's lost Mandalore, her people have been massacred (does she means her government members? Otherwise, why and how does she know?), Almec is the Prime Minister and crime families are involved. That last bit ought to be the only new information for the Jedi, right? A sudden regime switch in a world as influentil as Mandalore can't have gone unnotived. On first viewing I blamed her for not telling hm anything about Maul, but having think about it, I don't think she knows his name, or has any notion of who he even is, beside a random, if exceptionally dangerous crime lord. Also, one point for restreint: She did not call Kenobi her only hope. Kenobi knows from Ahsoka that DW cut ties with the Separatists, so he thinks they alone are responsible for the takeover. Mundi says that if the Seppies aren't involved, then this is an internal affair and they can't help., especially since she's decided to keep Mandalore neutral. I beg all your ****ing pardons? The head of system with recognized standing within the Republic ask you for help because a terrorist organization and criminal syndicates have overthrown her and installed a convicted criminal in her place and you can't intervene because "it's an internal affair"!? The **** are you good for!? Isn't that exactly the kind of things you did on the regular before the war? Ki-Adi's line about the separatists not being involved would make sens if they were especially busy with the war but A) they refused to help Onderon when the separatists were clearly involved and B) they could spare Ahsoka to investigate something as minor as smuggling last time, and they can't help against a bloody coup? Yoda says that to take action they'd need support from the Republic seante. why? That's never stopped you before. And if it does, well that's just more proof that the Order becoming ingrained in the galactic government was a mistake. Obi-Wan knows full well the senate won't bother helping a neutral system. Meanwhile, Almec and the Mualite lieutenant inform the Oppress brothers that Satine's allies escaped (even Korkie? He was knocked out cold?), but he expect they will soon be found. ALso the Duchess called the Jedi... As Maul predicted. Indeed, he foresaw that the Jedi would get caught in red tape and therefore, wehn Kenobi comes, it'll be alone.

And he does. In Anakin's smuggling ship from the pilot movie. I'm honestly surprised Any isn't tagging along, he's never been a sticker for the rules. OR obeying the council. The ship barely manages to land on the spaceport, it seems to be falling apart even, making Obi-Wan swear to never again borrow a ship from Skywalker. I'm surprised the genius mechanic doesn't take better care of his vehicles. Anyhow, Kenobi is using his Rako Hardeen disguise (minus the face surgery of course) and tricks a DW warrior stuck on custom duty (I guess), into coming inside where he can mug him for his armor. It's an homage to ANH. Interestingly the smuggler aliens from season 3 are operating on Mandalore again. I guess Almec still had their contact info. Nobody notices anything except for Bo-Katan who is just standing on a rooftop by the docks for no discernible reason, apparently. He makes his way to the jail without any issue. This place just has the worst security. Satine immediately hugs him, which I find pretty cute. She asks if he has plan. "As always." 's far as I can tell, his plan is to... walk out and run to his ship before anyone notices. Hey, just because it's very simple, doesn't mean it's not a plan. A random warrior takes the lift down with them, and when he asks Obi-Wan about the prisoner transfer's authorization code, the Jedi beats him unconscious. I suppose it was lucky enough that the uniform already let him get in the building. Unfortunately, another warrior spots them and they have to run. a DW platoon catches up with them as they reach Anakin's ship, but the controls malfunction. everything that happens after that is a direct consequence of Anakin being a lousy ship owner. If it weren't for that, Maul's plan would have resulted in Obi-wan rescuing Satine (what a mastermind!) Satine tells Obi-Wan they should contact her sister for reinforcment but the Jedi didn't even know she had a sister in the first place. Maul and savage get there as the ship finally manages to take off and order two warriors to shoot rockets at it (rather than their blasters who are jsut as ineffective against ships as they alaways are, why do people keep shhoting blasters at ships, in this universe?) Satine and Kenobi fall off the ship just as it explodes (well, that customs guy is dead) and a large peice of metal falls directly onto Satine, gently moving her a few centimeters rather than crushing all her internal organs. Obi-wan sees Maul coming towards him and says: "No, it can't be." Why couldn't it be? Last time, you were the one calling into question his supposed death. Maul bids him welcome to his world and has them both brought to the palace.

Maul has organized a little private audience. Just him, Kenobi, Satine, Savage, Almec and a few warriors. He Force-chokes Satine without even looking at her while calling her and Obi-Wan's nobility a flaw. Saying he should have chosen the dark Side. the Jedi says only the weak embrace the Dark Side. Obi-Wan my boy, Now is not the time! What kind of negociatior insults someone who is holding a prisoner by the throat? Making him angry in not a good play, right now! Maul say's his powerful, Obi-Wan says opposing the dark Side is what makes you powerful, you know the drill. Kenobi says he knows Maul didn't choose the Darkness, he's been to his village, he knows what the Nightsisters did. Maul, being in no mood to listen, interrupts. He's spent years doing literally nothing but think about the moment he'll take his revenge upon Kenobi and that moment is now. He's not going to kill him, though. He's going to destroy him. And he impales Satine on the Darksaber. Obi-Wan rushes to her side to embrace her. Her last words are to tell him to remember that she always loved him and always will. All he can do he wordlessly kiss her hand as she passes away. Maul watches with a smile and then has Obi-wan sent back to prison to rot in his misery.

The loyalist DW attack the prison as Obi-Wan gets there. Bo-Katan does neat thing where she attaches an enemy warrior to another then slice the second one's jetpack sending them both crashing into a nearby building. She gives her name to Obi-Wan and a jetpack too. He's never used one before, but in this case (I'm guessing life-and-death situations) he's a good learner. Also good thing one member of his ecort was carrying his lightsaber. I'm not sure why he can't take the speeder he came there with, it just vanished between shots. They are pursued by some more more Death Watch but manage to get to the dock for their third firefight between prison escapped and Maulite DW this episode. The whole place has erupted into chaos as the two DW factions are tearing each other apart. Alos, the loyalist have cute little round laser-shields in thir armbands b=for some reason. And Bo-Katan punches a guy wearing a helmet. Both sides came out in force, it's a proper battle rather than the minor skirmish we've had so far. Bo-Katan gets Obi-Wan onto a ship and tells him to go back to the Republic and tell them what's happened. He says that would lead to a Republic invasion. Why? What has changed? Bo-Katan is okay with that, though. Mandalore always survive, but Maul won't and that's what matters.
*Spoiler: Hmm.*
Show



Before he leaves, Kenobi asks her if she is Satine's sister. She doesn't answer besides looking sad, so he offers his condolences and leaves. Did she know about Satine's death? How?

Maul and Oppress aren't there for the fight, because while this was going on, they were receiving a special visitor. On Corsucant, Plapatine seems to be feeling through the force and orders Mas Amedda to prepare his personal ship. This scene happens just after Satine's death, but given the established travel time of several days from Mandalore to Coruscant, I would assule it happens roughly at the same time the Jedi were looking at Satine's message. Possibly even soon after he told the Jedi to let Maul play with pirates in the beginning of the season. Sidious lands somewhere close to the royal palace and Force-chokes the two guards who came to investigate, not only does he not look at them, he doesn't even keep his hand in position and steals a speeder while they die in the background. I don't think I've ever seen someone ever do that before. As he heads for the palace, Maul feels a presence... A presence he hasn't felt since... Ding! Sidious comes in while the Imperial March blares (and two other guards choke to death). Maul immediately kneels before sidious, calling him Master and claiming to have built all this in hope of returning to him. Sidious takes one look at savage and calls Maul a liar and a rival. He Force-slams them both against the wall, keeps them there for a little while, chuckling before letting them go. They draw their blades and so does Sidious, both of them. Despite bfighting one against two, he barely struggles and seems to be having a grand ole time of it, fighting more like a demented goblin, than an old man. The fight moves to the palace's courtyard. The dark Lord of the Sith manages to knock Maul briefly out and toys with Oppress for a moment before impaling him on both his blades just as Maul comes to. Sidous throws the daying Dathomirian away and Maul runs after him, calling him brother. talzin's magick is pouring out of savage as he dies, reverting him to his orignial appearance (except for the prosthetic arm), even his armours disappears. Savage apologizes to Maul for being an unworthy apprentice and never having been like him. Maul just grabs his hand, too shocked for words. 

Sidious casually strolls towards him, cackling and reminding him of "the first and only reality of the Sith: There can only be Two. And you... are no longer my apprentice. You have been replaced." Sidous jumps to Maul who switches the darksaber on and fights him two blades against two. Their duel takes place before a picasso-like mural that appears to depict a Darksaber-wielding Mandalore leading his people into battle against the Jedi. Neat, if irrelevant to the situation at hand. Maul gets a couple kicks in but Sidious just Force-grabs him and slams him repeatedly against the ground and wall, making Maul beg for mercy. Darth Sidoius tells him there is no mercy and throws out the Force-lightning. He's not going to kill him, though. He has... other uses for him  in mind. End of the episode.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

An eventful episode, to say the least. There are only three left in the season. I think the first one was meant to go with these three as a four-part arc. Kind of an odd decision to split them like that, but at least it wasn't one episode from the middle of an arc *two seasons prior this time.*

I already knew Maul would kill Satine. It tends to come up every time people discuss the character online. I had also seen the Sidious vs Oppress brothers fight on YouTube a few years agao so not a surprise. Still both scenes were made well enough to pang at my heartstrings a bit. What can I say, I'm a sucker for death scenes.

Satine didn't do much in this one beside die. All things considered, this is a textbook example of a woman being stuffed in a refrigerator. I suppose that, as a never-mentionned before love-interest of Kenobi, the odds were never in favor of her survival, but still that's a very cliché way to deal with it. They could have just gone their separate ways. Frankly, despite my criticisms about her character, I fell like she deserved to have her death be about her, at least, rather than just a way to make Obi-Wan suffer for a bit.

Bo-Katan being Satine's sister come out of nowhere. I don't really know what to think about it. I find it very odd that Obi-Wan didn't know. He and Satine spent a year together during the Mandalorian Civil War and her own sister being on the opposite side never came up? It's impressive that Vizsla trusted her enough to make her second in command at least. Wait., is she Korkie's mother!? She has to be right, or they would have to be a third sibling. Does that mean that the kid sided against his own mother? I mean, obviously, he's too young to have fought in the Civil War, but back when DW allied with Dooku, Bo-Katan would have reached out to him, right? Pre Vizsla wanted to recruit Lux, and they're the same age (give or take a year or two). Why didn't we get this story instead of all that smuggling bullcrap?!

So, this was the last MAndalore episode before the show's premature cancellation. I wonder what their plans were for the Republic invasion (though I assume they followed up on that in the two new seasons). I mean, with Savage dead and Maul presumably dragged kicking and screaming to some dark dungeon somewhere, who is in charge? Almec? I doubt Death watch has any respect for the slimeball. The lieutenant guy with the horns? He doesn't even have a name. Is Bo-Katan going to end up suddenly in charge and having to deal with a Republic invasion she called herself? I mean, as Satine's sister, I think she could get her rule recognized as long as she promised to stay neutral. Hell, she might even join the Republic's war effort to get back at Dooku for... whatever it is he did. She's a fan of that old warrior-culture after all. Then again, she might want Mandalore to part ways with the rEpublic entirely, in which case, the Jedi might back Korkie's claim to the throne? Monarchies, I swear...

Well, it took him five season, but Sidious finally did something by himself. It makes sense too. This is internal Sith business. The last thing he wants is for Maul to have a chat with the Jedi, just after Dooku taking Maul as an aprentice (or vice-versa) and decidding to take him out. Bounty Hunters are too unreliable and sending clones would just draw more attention, so he had no other options. Plus he clearly enjoyed that. The show really delighted in showing what a Dark Lord of the Sith at the top of his game looks like in a way RotS and a 61-year-old Ian McDiarmid couldn't. Showing him duel with two lightsabers both clears out where he suddenly got a spare one from after Windu threw his through the window and confirms he was going easy against the Jedi come to arrest him. him immobilizing thebrothers as his opening move and then letting them go was one hell of a flex. This was less a fight and more a cat playing with his prey. I wonder what uses he had in mind fo rMaul. The obvious onne would be to take over his criminal empire, which would be useful for establishing and consolidating his actual Empire, but there's got to be something beyond that. I do have to call bull on him finding Maul, though. The scene in his office implies he felt his presence in the Force, but that would be the first time someone manages to sense someone's location from another planet and the Jedi should have felt it too.

Savage, Savage, Savage. What is there to say about Savage? It's kind of hard to think of a character with less agency as he has, bouncing from Ventress to Dooku to Talzin to Maul like that. And him having been brainwashed by Ventress and Talzin makes it hard to tell how much of his actions are his own. Him reverting to his "true" form in death implies the real Savage wasn't in control but his last words to Maul imply he was. There's something tragic to him apologizing for being a poor apprentice when he's been exactly the brother Maul needed and certainly the healthiest relationship Maul ever had or will have. WIn the end, what did Savage want? A brother, I think. Which makes his murder of Feral all the more tragic. Maybe he hoped Maul would take Feral's place in his life. I don't know. I find it really weird that the subject of Feral was never brought up, I must say. And now, I don't see how it could possibly ever be relevant again, or how could Maul find out.

As for Maul, this arc has done a lot for his character. He went from the one-note brute of TPM to a genuinely charismatic and dangerous mastermind. And the performance is great. I think the biggest problem with his character is that we know he can't ever succeed in killing Obi-wan or succeeding Sidious, his two identifiable goals. So why bring him back? Apparently Filoni said he envisioned Maul as a Sysyphean figure, doomed to always _almost_ get what he wants only for it to immediately go downhill. There's value in a character like that. I think there's anothe rthing of value to his character, and that is that he's not actually as evil as he tries to be. He is cruel, power-hungry, selfish, arrogant and all the flaws you care to list, but I think this is in part because  he believes he ought to be. Just look at his relationship with Savage. He wants ti to be that of a master and and his apprentice but he keep slipping and calling him brother whenever he worries for him. Who has ever heard of a Sith worrying for another Sith? I think OBi-Wan was bang on the money when he said that Maul didn't choose the Dark Side of his own volition, and that Maul knew he was right. But Kenobi is the worst person in the world to tell him that (the best, I think would be Ventress. Despite what she's done to Savage, I think they could relate to one another if only theu knew how much they have in common). Also you can't "fix" someone just by asking them politely to stop being evil. Luke tried with Vader and that only got him to be taken to the Emperor. Back to what I was saying, I see a conflict in Maul I don't see in Dooku or Sidious. These two are confident in their evil and they have a sense of purpose that Maul lacks. They are bad because that's just who they are apparently.He comes across to me as... lost. Without a clear objective. Broken. Like Vader his evil comes from a place of hurt. Spending a decade bisected, of course, but beyond that, _the man has Sidious as a father figure_. No way that doesn't mess you up. He tries to force Savage into the role of an apprentice because that is how Sidious treated him and he doesn't know how to relate to family in any other way. And when Sidious shows up alone in his seat of power what does he do? Does he try to take advantage of this one-of-a-lifetime-opportunity to get rid of his most dangerous rival for the title of galactic Emperor? No. he kneels before him and asks for his approval. Sidious called him a liar because he saw savage and concluded (not unreasonably) that Maul wanted to found a rival Sith Order, but I think he was genuine. He's been taught that the only way to have value was to destroy one's enemies and amass power. That "through victory my chains are broken." Defeated by Obi-Wan he doesn't come back to Sidious in chains. He tries to vainquish his enemy and amass power. So that Father may be proud of him, and so that he may earn his love. But Sidious does not love. To Sidious Maul was never more than a tool, to be used and discarded. His tool broke, so he went and replaced him. And he doesn't need nor want a spare (hell, he's already got his eye on an even better tool). So Sidious swats him away. I think Maul undersatnds now that Sidious won't ever give him what he really needs and has just taken away the one person who's ever tried to. And because that's all he knows, Maul will seek revenge, and power. A path that will ultimately lead him to his death in Obi-Wan's arms next to a campfire, with no-one to mourn him except the person he thought was his (second?) worst enemy. Like everything when it comes to the sith, it's all just such a waste. Makes you wonder. If Luke's death had been as sudden as savage and if Sidious had played with Savage without checking his six like he did with Luke, what would have been?

Don't get me wrong, I am not absolving Maul of his crimes, he's a right bastard through and through and he's actively chossing to keep spreading his misery around. But I am saying that he is also one of Sidous's many victims. Perhaps the one Sidious has damaged the most.


Next up: *Sabotage*, ooooh...

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## Mechalich

> That's not the way I read the Hutt council. I get the feeling each one is master of their own domain, but since Jabba is the most powerful, they all follow his lead in matters affecting all of them. In internal issues, I assume they all just keep out of each other's domains.


The Hutts operate under a system known as Kajidic, in which each clan runs a kajidic, basically a combination government/corporation/crime family/ethnic group. The council is made up the the leaders of each kajidic. At the time of the Clone Wars there were five such leaders. 

The kajidics absolutely do compete amongst themselves, brutally even, but because Hutt culture stresses the superiority of Hutts over literally everyone else such conflicts are not meant to be known by outsiders and the Hutts to their best to keep who's feuding with who and who's got more money off the Holonet. That's also why Jabba is able to speak for the council to outsiders, even when the other councilors don't necessarily agree, they generally would rather put forward a united front so that the Hutts, collectively, seem more powerful.




> She tells him she's lost Mandalore, her people have been massacred (does she means her government members? Otherwise, why and how does she know?)


I believe she means the members of House/Clan Kryze, since Mandalore has a clan-base structure. Exactly how many people that might be is unclear. However, it is implied by later events, and in the Mandalorian, that Bo-Katan and her immediate subordinates are the only surviving members when this all comes to an end.




> Wait., is she Korkie's mother!? She has to be right, or they would have to be a third sibling.


Pretty sure mysterious third sibling is the answer. Korkie Kryze has a databank entry, so if they were going to establish him as Bo-Katan's kid they could have done so much earlier.




> As for Maul, this arc has done a lot for his character. He went from the one-note brute of TPM to a genuinely charismatic and dangerous mastermind. And the performance is great.


I recall, when the whole 'Maul is back' thing was first revealed, being massively, supremely angry about it. It seemed like such a cheap way to drum up views. Yet somehow, after everything they did with the character (and there could be more, lots of room for Maul to maneuver between Solo and Rebels) I've come around to acceptance. I still wish they hadn't done it, but Filoni and co. at least got something worthwhile out of it after they did.

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## McNum

> *Spoiler: My thoughts*
> Show
> 
> An eventful episode, to say the least. There are only three left in the season. I think the first one was meant to go with these three as a four-part arc. Kind of an odd decision to split them like that, but at least it wasn't one episode from the middle of an arc *two seasons prior this time.*
> 
> I already knew Maul would kill Satine. It tends to come up every time people discuss the character online. I had also seen the Sidious vs Oppress brothers fight on YouTube a few years agao so not a surprise. Still both scenes were made well enough to pang at my heartstrings a bit. What can I say, I'm a sucker for death scenes.
> 
> Satine didn't do much in this one beside die. All things considered, this is a textbook example of a woman being stuffed in a refrigerator. I suppose that, as a never-mentionned before love-interest of Kenobi, the odds were never in favor of her survival, but still that's a very cliché way to deal with it. They could have just gone their separate ways. Frankly, despite my criticisms about her character, I fell like she deserved to have her death be about her, at least, rather than just a way to make Obi-Wan suffer for a bit.
> 
> ...


Point of order, there should be _four_ episodes left. 17 through 20.

If there's any episode that shows that the show was thinking of winding down it's this one. Look how many original characters got removed. The Lawless is a rather brutal clean-up episode when it comes to that. Why isn't Maul a factor in Revenge of the Sith? Sidious got 'em. At least that's what the show implies.

And yes, Maul's arc is a four-parter that got split up. They wanted to show off Maul early because of the hype his return was generating. I mean they colored the logo red to celebrate and all.

But for now, welcome to the original four-part Series Finale. It's gonna be a ride.

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## Mechalich

> If there's any episode that shows that the show was thinking of winding down it's this one.


The thing about TCW is that it was never wound down. It wasn't canceled because of it wasn't doing well, or lack of internal support or anything like that. It was canceled purely for legal reasons because after Disney purchase of the franchise they worked to kill ongoing projects that had been created prior to the purchase and therefore existed at least partially outside of their control - this happened in the books, comics, and video game lines as well (SWTOR is now, to my knowledge, the last-standing pre-Disney Star Wars property). Animation production has long lead times. By the time the end of season 5 was released production was already mostly finished for a good chunk of season 6 - which is why they were released anyway.

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## Fyraltari

*Season 5, Episode 17: Sabotage*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

The Separatists are invading Cato Neimodia. Isn't that the home planet of the trade federation? Isn't that one of the main separatist systems? The Republic is fighting back, lead by who else than Anakin Skywalker and Ahsoka Tano? They pierce the space blockade and get inside teh atmosphere where a second fleet... is waiting for them... In low atmosphere? Why? As pictured in RotS, neimodian cities are built on giant hammocks suspended between mountain formations. Some of them are upside down, which mustn't be very convenient. A missile showers Anakin's fighter with buzz droids, but Ahsoka manages to avoid them all, making him comments that she always has it easy. Yeah, like that time she got abducted by a random third party and used as game in a safari, remember that? R2 fights bakc against the buzzs with some efficiency. ISn't he supposed to be with Gascon, now? What's he doing here. Or is this happening before that episode. Anakin Force-pushes the remaining droids off his fighter while commenting that one day these droids will learn not to mess with the wrong Jedi. How do you expect them to learn anything if you kill them? Anyhow, a legion of buzz droids somehow manifest themselves under anakin's fighter and one of them manages to drill throught the hull, creating aminor explosion that knocks him out. R2 is still flying the ship, but the circuits are damaged. Tano orders him to land on a nearby ledge, even if there isn't enough room. Then she leaves her own fighter in the charge of her astromech and leaves her cockpit. R2 crashes on the ledge, crushing the buzzes and sliding on it at great speed. Ahsoka jumps on Skywalker's fighter, cuts the cockpit open, grabs her master and jumps away. but the fighter falls off the ledge, with R2 on it. Oh, no, is R2 dead? Of course not, he flies back to her. Cool scene, but, couldn't have R2 opened the cockpit and grabbed Anakin without ahsoka putting herself at risk like that? Anakin comes to and is a little confused about what happened. He calls for Rex to pick him up. As soon as that happens though, Yoda calls him to recall the two of them to Coruscant. Anakin says they're a little busy at the moment (the camera pans to Separatist frigate on fire above the nearby city). But Yoda insists: someone has bombed the Jedi Temple's hangars and they need their assistance.

Cut to Corsucant, where Anakin and Ahsoka are talking to the council which is fully present in person for quite possibly the first time since the beginning of the war. Skywalker assumes the Separatists are responsible, but the Council is worried this might be an inside job, perhaps even the act of a Jedi turned to the Dark Side of the force. Ahsoka has trouble believing a Jedi would attack a place this sacred. As the future vader stands next to her, hah! Windu explains that they can't trust anyone who was present during the attack to lead the investigation, so they're asking Anakina nd Ahsoka to investigate, as they'd have an impartial point of view, free of assumption. How the hell are they supposed to be impartial investigating the people they've worked an lived with for years? shouldn't they be asking someone they trust form outside the Order? Also, entrusting Anakin with an investigation feels like a bad move. Did they really not have anybody else more qualified? Quinlan voss can see the past by touching things, for crying out loud! Anakin and Ahsoka accept the misison. Later in the hangar, they're observing the damages. The corpses are still there? In the time it took for the JEdi to realize what was happening, decided they need to ask Anakin, call him, him being picked up and getting a ship to bring him back to coruscant (his fighter is downed, remember), making the actual trip up to the Council room, being briefed and moving back to the hangar, thee wasn't time to bring the dead to the morgue? Skywalker can somehow still hear "the screams" too. Tano asks him if it could really be a Jedi and he tells her that not every Jedi agree with the war and that idealists may become traitors, like what happened to Dooku and Krell. This is, of course, nonsense, but the kind of nonsense you'd expect from someone about to become a founder of the Galactic Empire. They are interrupted by a droid called Russo-ISC, crime analyst for the Jedi (they have one of those?). Windu's assigned him to help them. Anakin wants him and his padawan to begin interviewing the witnesses, but Russo would rather do it alone: rumors are spreading that a Jedi is responsible, so her presence could make them uneasy. Anakin disagrees, Jedi were killed in the blast in addition to maintenance crew and clones (so what? striking your own is kind of the basis of being a traitor). He sends them on their way while he... meditates? in the wreckage.

At the Temple's infirmary, Ahsoka and Russo are conducting their interviews, without much success. And indeed, people are wondering whether a Jedi did this, even among those who've worked for years in the Temple. One Pantorian worker says he thinks he knows who blew up the hangar, though: he saw a colleague called Jakar Bomani working all morning in the area the blast came from, it's the last place he saw him. Russo pulls up a picture of a cyclopean alien and the worker identifies him. We see later that the origin of the blast isn't some remote area of the hangar, or a corner or anything, so that's really not much to go on. Still, russo can't find him anywhere, so they report it to Anakin, who hasn't had any success in... whatever it was he was doing, but can feel anger and mistrust swirl in the Temple. Skywalker doesn't believe someone could just disappear, but Russo counters that that may just mean the attack was well-planned. Anakin decides to have a word about it with the head of security . THat guy is currently standing on the steps to the temple standing firm in front of a crowd of anti-war protesters, who have holographic signs showing a crossed trooper helmet. Next to him are masked jedi in white and gold robes. First appearance of the, sentinels, I think they are called? The crowd is apparently made of "family and friends" of the wounded in the attack, I guess, but then why are they yelling about the war? Skywalker shows Mr. Security the portrait of Bomani and asks him to tell him if he can find him. One human woman in the crowd recognizes the picture from a distance (freaking good eyes what with the picture being an orange hologram of a 2D image and all). She yells that Jakar is her husband (huh, interspecies couple, neat) who she's been trying to reach since the explosion.

Anakin interrogates the woman, Letta, in a quiet room in the Temple. She's angry that he can't find her husband and gets upset when he asks if he could have done something like that. Apparently, getting a job in the Temple requires jumping through _a lot_ of hoops and it had been his life's dream to work there. He calms her down a bit and she pleads for him to find her husband. Meanwhile, Russo and Ahsoka are in the hangar, running simulations to find the point of origin of the blast based on the trajectory of the debris. But there's no bomb residue at that point, so Anakin concludes the bomber rigged a ship to explode. Russo makes a breakthrough: he's found something that doesn't belong there. Highly volatile microscopic droids covering several pieces of debris. So now, they're chasing nnodroids. Skywalker tells Russo to review the security footage to see if Jakar did anything strange before, while he and Ahsoka go over bomani's file. He's a munition expert and the hangar's foreman for the gunships as well as shipments of munition and bombs, also his specialty is nano-weaponry. Something I have never seen used in SW before, don't know about you guys. Russo is reviewing the Temple's ecurity footage. All of it. At once. On fast forward. Being a droid has perks. He can't find Jakar anywhere, though. Anakin wants to send JEdi looking for him, but Russo deploys a few mini-me to do it.

Skywalker and Tano report their progress to the Council, half of which is now back off-world. Windu is unimpressed. They need answers soon as the Senate is considering having a meeting to decide whether (typical politicians...) to have the military police handle the investigation. This revolts Ahsoka, but Windu tells her the senate doesn't take lightly to clones being killed (out of battle, I assume). Also he doesn't say it, but like... All of you are ranking officers in the GAR and the Temple handles military ships as well as strategic meetings and serves as  point from where to coordinate specific war-related missions. This _is_ a military base in all but name. I'd say the military police should be involved. But I understand the Jedi's reluctance to allow Palpatine's minions to rummage through their trash. They are interrupted by a call from Russo: he's found Jakar.
*Spoiler: From a certain point of view*
Show





He shows them Jakar's right hand, all that remains of him. The rest exploded. What and his hand flew off of to this completely different room past closed doors. Russo explains Jakar was the bomb: his bloodstream is crawling with nanodroids. Skywalker decides to search the Bomani residence for evidence. It's located somewhere in Corsucant's underbelly. This surprises Ahosak who assumed working for the Jedi paid better. I mean, it's a pretty big flat for two people, so they're not doing that bad. No-one's home so they break in. This is why the galaxy turned on you guys. Anakin searches for a note while Ahsoka looks for more nanodroids. He reminds her to be mindful of possible traps, the man was a demolition expert. She follows a beeping scanner past the living room into a corridor and into the kitchen while Anakin looks behind framed paintings until finally noticing the blinking light under a pile of stuff on the table. It displays an hologram of a crossed trooper helmet that Anakin's shocked face and the dramatic music tell me I'm supposed to be surprised about, but... Letta was at that protest earlier. Tano's scanner goes wild near the "disposal" and she calls Anakin. The nanodroids were in his food. Anakin wonders if he ate them willingly or if they were fed to him. And Letta comes in asking what they are doing in her home.

Anakin tells Letta they've learned that Jakar was really involved and has Ahsoka scan her for nanodroids. She's clean. She asks what they're talking about and Tano tells her they believe someone set Jakar up and "made him the bomb". Gee, Ahsoka, could you be a little more tactful when telling someone their spouse was murdered, you think? Anakin wants Letta to come back with them for questioning, which she agrees too. But once they're in the streets, she makes a run for it, jumping on the roof of... a flying food-truck? They run after her and manage to corner her in an alleyway. Ahsoka tells her running awya is admitting she knows more than she lets on. She says they're trying to pin Jakar's murder on her. Anakin says no one said he was dead! Haha! Anakin, are you high? Ahsoka told her he was turned into a bomb five minutes ago. I suppose someone could have turned him into a bomb and then detonate an unrelated bomb, but how likely is that? See, this is why the "how did you know it was poison?" trick isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sometimes people guess correctly. Ahsoka insists that running away proves she had something to do with the bomb. No, it doesn't. Letta says they can't prove anything. Well, they can prove that he was administred nanodroids throught the food and that she didn't eat any despite their living together, which, while it's not enough to prove she murdered all these people, does strongly suggest she was aware of her husband being turned into a bomb. Anakin gets his Vader on as he demands answers. LEtta admits to poisoning her husband and says the JEdi don't know what they're getting into. Ahsoka says she'll have plenty of time to explains in details. Later on Anakin tells Windu and Yoda that they have Letta locked-up in a cell within the Temple. Russo calls to tell them he's done a full sweep of the buiding without finding any more nano-droids and that, based on the security footage, Jakar Bomani has no accomplices in the Temple. They're happy to hear that. but they still don't know why Letta Bomani did what she did. Windu comments that public opinion is turning against the Jedi and that the war is becoming less popular with each passing day. Ahsoka tells Anakin she doesn't know how she would have handled a Jedi being responsible. He says that there will always be Jedi who disappoint them (Hah!) but it's worthwhile as long as they know there are good Jedi (hah!)
End of the episode.



*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Well, this wasn't as good as I'd hoped. The opening sequence is blatant padding, as is Letta's little escape attempt. No one's actions really made any sense. Why would Letta come anywhere near the Temple after the attack and why launch herself at Anakin telling him about her connection to Jakar instead of keeping a low profile? The notion that Jakar's body was completely pulverised except for one cleanly severed intact hand in a completely different room sends me. Someone cut it off before the explosion and brought it there for them to find, right, it's not possible otherwise. And people mistrust the Jedi because someone bombed their hangar? Why?

Still, the episode showcases the atmosphere of mistrust that permeates the Jedi Order in the last days of the Republic: the public is turning against the Order, the Council is quick to suspect a traitor based on nothing and doesn't want outsiders meddling in their affairs.

I always assumed the maintenance and day-to-day operations of the temple was handled by the Jedi themselves as in real-world monastic orders (that I know of, don't @ me). I suppose that with the war, it would make sense for a lot of it to fall on Republic personnel. But the notion that some of the maintenance crew have worked there for "years" implies this state of affair predates the war. I guess it shows that the Jedi don't know much about the "little people" working for them.

Also, I like that throughout the episode we could see Jedi walking around the Temple going about their business, like Master Sinobe form Peelee's favourite episode.

Okay cards on the table: I watched _Rebels_, I watched _The Mandalorian_ and BoBF, I know Ahsoka survives the Jedi Purge, and because I am active on the Internet, I know that it is in part because she got expelled from the Order because she was framed for something involving Tarkin. And I am 90% sure I know who the real guilty party is. I'm pretty confident this is the arc where this happens.



Next up: *The Jedi who knew too much.* Ominous...

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## Peelee

> Next up: *The Jedi who knew too much.* Ominous...


*The Jedi Who Knew Too Little* with Bill Murray was pretty great, though.

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## Mechalich

> How the hell are they supposed to be impartial investigating the people they've worked an lived with for years? shouldn't they be asking someone they trust form outside the Order? Also, entrusting Anakin with an investigation feels like a bad move. Did they really not have anybody else more qualified?


Actually, there's something to this, at least with regard to Anakin. Anakin actually is the biggest outsider in the whole Jedi Order, because he _was never an initiate_. Everyone else spends the most formative years of their life immersed in initiate life in a creche with a bunch of similarly aged children, making friends, learning from the masters, and generally absorbing what it means to be a Jedi. Anakin, by going straight to Padawan, skipped all of that. His only real reference to how the Jedi Order is supposed to work is Obi-Wan, which is an extremely idealized picture (because Obi-Wan is the best Jedi) and misses a lot of the practicality of normal Jedi life. He can be 'impartial' in the sense that aside from Obi-Wan he doesn't have any actual friends in the Order.




> He's a munition expert and the hangar's foreman for the gunships as well as shipments of munition and bombs, also his specialty is nano-weaponry. Something I have never seen used in SW before, don't know about you guys.


References to nanotech in Star Wars are rare, but they do exist. In the Legends Jedi Academy novels an Imperial ambassador infected Mon Mothma with 'nano-destroyers' a sort of molecular virus that slowly consumed her cells. There were also nanotech organic-machine infections used by both the Sith (the nanogene spores of Belia Darzu) and the Rakata (the Imprisoned One) to turn living beings into cybernetic monstrosities.




> I always assumed the maintenance and day-to-day operations of the temple was handled by the Jedi themselves as in real-world monastic orders (that I know of, don't @ me). I suppose that with the war, it would make sense for a lot of it to fall on Republic personnel. But the notion that some of the maintenance crew have worked there for "years" implies this state of affair predates the war. I guess it shows that the Jedi don't know much about the "little people" working for them.


A lot of the day-to-day operations was/is handled by the washouts, meaning the Initiates and Padawans who fail their respective trials and are not simply sent to the Service Corps but are expelled from the Order entirely - this was directly referenced in the sourcebook _The Jedi Path_ with one such person heading up the Temple motor pool. These people, not being Jedi, are allowed to have families, and when you combine naturally tendencies toward nepotism with the ongoing dramatic decline in Jedi numbers leading to insufficient numbers of failed initiates to fill these roles - the Order shrinks, but the Temple doesn't get any smaller, so you can't downsize maintenance all that much - you get ordinary civilians working for the Order directly as time passes.

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## Grim Portent

It's also not unreasonable to assume the civilians working for the Jedi are something akin to lay-brethren, but one step further removed, for one reason or another, such as faith, obligation or personal admiration, they are drawn to the Order even if they cannot actually join it due to not being force sensitives (not to mention being adults.) They still desire to serve the Jedi in some capacity, and there are jobs the Jedi need done that they may lack the skills,* time or inclination to do.

Like Klimmek from Skyrim, the guy who brings food to the Greybeards. He respects and admires them, but he also accepts he isn't cut out to be let into High Hrothgar or join them, so he contents himself with doing them a small service.


The Order is a religious organisation after all, and one of the foremost authorities on the Force. For those who have a spiritual belief compatible with the Jedi working with them would be kind of like being a devout Catholic working in/for the Vatican.


*Particularly mechanics and weapons techs I would imagine. The Jedi have a small pool of starships used for their own business even before the war, which are armed by necessity, but I doubt many Jedi are skilled at maintaining torpedo launchers and heavy laser blasters. Or fixing ventilation, doors and other such odds and ends.

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## Mechalich

> *Particularly mechanics and weapons techs I would imagine. The Jedi have a small pool of starships used for their own business even before the war, which are armed by necessity, but I doubt many Jedi are skilled at maintaining torpedo launchers and heavy laser blasters. Or fixing ventilation, doors and other such odds and ends.


Also droid management/maintenance. The Jedi Temple has a lot of droids in it, we see them in both this show and the PT films, and someone had to keep them going which is at least a semi-specialized technical skill (though it's probably also the most common job in the whole galaxy) that Jedi, who have absolutely nothing resembling a conventional education, don't know how to do. It's actually a plot point in more than one source that Anakin is the best droid engineer in the entire Order by virtue of tinkering with them as a child on Tatooine.

----------


## Fyraltari

> *The Jedi Who Knew Too Little* with Bill Murray was pretty great, though.


Having watched the episode, I feel it ought to be called *The Jedi who didn't know anything*.



> Actually, there's something to this, at least with regard to Anakin. Anakin actually is the biggest outsider in the whole Jedi Order, because he _was never an initiate_. Everyone else spends the most formative years of their life immersed in initiate life in a creche with a bunch of similarly aged children, making friends, learning from the masters, and generally absorbing what it means to be a Jedi. Anakin, by going straight to Padawan, skipped all of that. His only real reference to how the Jedi Order is supposed to work is Obi-Wan, which is an extremely idealized picture (because Obi-Wan is the best Jedi) and misses a lot of the practicality of normal Jedi life. He can be 'impartial' in the sense that aside from Obi-Wan he doesn't have any actual friends in the Order.


Even so, he's still full of preconceived notions about many people in the Temple. Imagine if say, Windu was present at ground zero, how objective would you expect Anakin to be?






> References to nanotech in Star Wars are rare, but they do exist. In the Legends Jedi Academy novels an Imperial ambassador infected Mon Mothma with 'nano-destroyers' a sort of molecular virus that slowly consumed her cells. There were also nanotech organic-machine infections used by both the Sith (the nanogene spores of Belia Darzu) and the Rakata (the Imprisoned One) to turn living beings into cybernetic monstrosities.


Figures, there's hardly a sci-fi concept Star Wars hasn't touched.






> A lot of the day-to-day operations was/is handled by the washouts, meaning the Initiates and Padawans who fail their respective trials and are not simply sent to the Service Corps but are expelled from the Order entirely - this was directly referenced in the sourcebook _The Jedi Path_ with one such person heading up the Temple motor pool.


I can't decide if that's sad or inspiring.



> the ongoing dramatic decline in Jedi numbers leading to insufficient numbers of failed initiates to fill these roles - the Order shrinks


I don't know what you are talking about. I don't remember anyone mentionning any trouble with recruitment or a decline in force-sensitive births.



> It's also not unreasonable to assume the civilians working for the Jedi are something akin to lay-brethren, but one step further removed, for one reason or another, such as faith, obligation or personal admiration, they are drawn to the Order even if they cannot actually join it due to not being force sensitives (not to mention being adults.) They still desire to serve the Jedi in some capacity, and there are jobs the Jedi need done that they may lack the skills,* time or inclination to do.
> Like Klimmek from Skyrim, the guy who brings food to the Greybeards. He respects and admires them, but he also accepts he isn't cut out to be let into High Hrothgar or join them, so he contents himself with doing them a small service.
> 
> 
> The Order is a religious organisation after all, and one of the foremost authorities on the Force. For those who have a spiritual belief compatible with the Jedi working with them would be kind of like being a devout Catholic working in/for the Vatican.


That seems to be Jakar Bomani in a nutshell, I imagine a certain degree of religiosity is one of the things those tests he passed screen for.







> Particularly mechanics and weapons techs I would imagine. The Jedi have a small pool of starships used for their own business even before the war, which are armed by necessity, but I doubt many Jedi are skilled at maintaining torpedo launchers and heavy laser blasters. Or fixing ventilation, doors and other such odds and ends.





> Also droid management/maintenance. The Jedi Temple has a lot of droids in it, we see them in both this show and the PT films, and someone had to keep them going which is at least a semi-specialized technical skill (though it's probably also the most common job in the whole galaxy) that Jedi, who have absolutely nothing resembling a conventional education, don't know how to do. It's actually a plot point in more than one source that Anakin is the best droid engineer in the entire Order by virtue of tinkering with them as a child on Tatooine.


I don't know about that. Every Jedi is expected to buil and maintain their own lightsaber so they need some advanced courses in engineering, which I would assume a good number would pursue further. Autonomy seems to be a requirement in their line of work (what are you going to do if your ship malfunctions in the open?) In fact, I would assume Jedi probably have one of the most comprehensive education in the galaxy, what with their massive library and records going back millenia. We see Jedi constantly show mastery in a variety of skills like Obi-Wan being an excellent marksman despite having little reason to train with a rifle or many being shown to be multilingual. I get the feeling Anakin isn't the best engineer in the Order because he's tinkered with droids before, but thay he's the best because he's a mecanical prodigy who was already assembling functionnal droids and podracers by age ten.

In KOTOR II, Kreia laments that many Jedi focus solely on their connection with the Force and neglect to cultivate more mundane skills but a) that game no longer considered canonical and b) the game implies the current Jedi Order was partially built on her teachings what with having been refounded by her apprentice.

----------


## Mechalich

> Even so, he's still full of preconceived notions about many people in the Temple. Imagine if say, Windu was present at ground zero, how objective would you expect Anakin to be?


I'm not saying that Anakin is objective (he's not), only that he is at least theoretically more objective than essentially every other member of the Order. Since the Jedi obviously weren't going to go with a non-Jedi for something like this he's as good as it gets.




> I don't know what you are talking about. I don't remember anyone mentionning any trouble with recruitment or a decline in force-sensitive births.


Windu says it himself in AotC "Jedi we have left." The Order, in the PT, is at the end of a prolonged, _massive_ decline in size, one traceable to both a decline in recruitment and extremely harsh standards for becoming a Jedi - the very existence of the Service Corps, which probably contains more members than there are Knights, is emblematic of this. Jedi numbers during periods such as KotoR, SWTOR, or even the New Sith Wars that immediately preceded the current post-Ruusan Era were orders of magnitude higher.

This is a critical point with regard to everything surrounding the PT and the Rise of the Empire and it's a fundamental part of the Rule of Two plan of Darth Bane. The Jedi and Sith respond to each other. Every time the Sith grow strong the Jedi rally and the Order absolutely explodes in numbers and strength. When the Sith weaken, the Jedi for there is no active threat they find it necessary to oppose. Standing at the tail end of one thousand years of unprecedented peace and prosperity the Jedi Order is cripplingly weak and monstrously overstretched. 10,000 knights and masters is barely enough to patrol Coruscant (with 1,000,000,000,000 citizens), never mind the whole galaxy.




> I don't know about that. Every Jedi is expected to buil and maintain their own lightsaber so they need some advanced courses in engineering, which I would assume a good number would pursue further.


Except we see Jedi make their own lightsabers in this very show and it is a decidedly not-technical process.




> Autonomy seems to be a requirement in their line of work (what are you going to do if your ship malfunctions in the open?) In fact, I would assume Jedi probably have one of the most comprehensive education in the galaxy, what with their massive library and records going back millenia.


The opposite is true. The Jedi have a highly focused education that is extremely esoteric. They are monks, and they practice a monastic regimen, one that happens to include a highly martial component. Yes we see characters with other skills but those characters are mostly elite exceptions. TCW has an unfortunate tendency to focus on the most elite 0.1% of all Jedi, not anyone average. Most Jedi don't fly their own ships, they have someone else to fly them around, whether its a member of the service corps, Judicial Officers (like the guys who fly Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to Naboo in TPM) or just piloting droids. 




> In KOTOR II, Kreia laments that many Jedi focus solely on their connection with the Force and neglect to cultivate more mundane skills but a) that game no longer considered canonical and b) the game implies the current Jedi Order was partially built on her teachings what with having been refounded by her apprentice.


For the record, in Legends the light-side ending of Kotor II is canonical, in which Meetra Surik rejects basically everything Kreia has said throughout the game. Also, Surik (the Jedi Exile) wasn't responsible for the restoration of the Jedi Order, since following the events of the game she reunited with Revan and was killed attempting to defeat Valkorion (in his guise as the Sith Emperor Tenebrae) and spent centuries in a bizarre second career as a Force Ghost. The Order was instead reorganized by Visas Marr, who was Darth Nihilus' former apprentice and never listened to Kreia much at all.

----------


## Peelee

> . 10,000 knights and masters is barely enough to patrol Coruscant (with 1,000,000,000,000 citizens)


Patrol? The Jedi aren't local street cops. They don't "patrol".

----------


## Keltest

> Patrol? The Jedi aren't local street cops. They don't "patrol".


I'd wager thats as much related to their low numbers as anything though. If there were millions of Jedi, sparing a few to, say, establish a presence in the lower levels of Coruscant would be much more feasible.

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## Peelee

> I'd wager thats as much related to their low numbers as anything though. If there were millions of Jedi, sparing a few to, say, establish a presence in the lower levels of Coruscant would be much more feasible.


Why would they want to establish a presence in lower Coruscant? They're not street cops no matter how many of them you have.

----------


## Keltest

> Why would they want to establish a presence in lower Coruscant? They're not street cops no matter how many of them you have.


One would assume that their philosophical desire to uphold justice and generally protect and uplift the people of the galaxy would extend to the poor people on Coruscant too.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> One would assume that their philosophical desire to uphold justice and generally protect and uplift the people of the galaxy would extend to the poor people on Coruscant too.


Pretty much. you'd think if there were so few, you'd focus on one planet at a time, the Force can sense a lot of things in peoples minds and extend quite far in how much they sense from many people without overwhelming the user, which they can could use to figure out why people are desperate enough to resort to crime on the y'know, capital planet of the Republic and report back to senators on how to enact policy for the peoples benefit. the more planets they help could cause a snowball effect, with people prospering and being helped leading them to helping others and over time the Jedi would gradually archive and record the patterns of societal problems as they relate to the mental problems people are having over time, eventually getting to the point where the Jedi could categorize each kind of societal problem and easily figure out a solution to that problem based on previous findings. all of which would be perfectly in keeping with the Jedi's philosophy of altruism, patience, control and calm disciplined use of their powers.

----------


## Peelee

> One would assume that their philosophical desire to uphold justice and generally protect and uplift the people of the galaxy would extend to the poor people on Coruscant too.


Why? Again, they're not street cops. You can have multiple organizations that have the mission statement to uphold justice without every one of them doing small, local policing. In the nation of Peeleelandia, the Peelee Bureau of Investigation is the federal law enforcement branch but doesn't have uniformed agents walking a beat in the small farming burb of Farmburb. Because the Farmburb Constabulatory takes care of that.

It's not a matter of number of members, it's a matter of scope of service. The Jedi defend peace and democracy. They have investigations and missions. They don't patrol. Not in the waning days of the Old Republic, not a thousand years prior during the High Republic, not five thousand years prior in KOTOR, not in any form of Star Wars that has been put out in legends or current canon to the best of my knowledge.

Jedi aren't beat cops, no matter how much you think they should be.

----------


## Keltest

> Why? Again, they're not street cops. You can have multiple organizations that have the mission statement to uphold justice without every one of them doing small, local policing. In the nation of Peeleelandia, the Peelee Bureau of Investigation is the federal law enforcement branch but doesn't have uniformed agents walking a beat in the small farming burb of Farmburb. Because the Farmburb Constabulatory takes care of that.
> 
> It's not a matter of number of members, it's a matter of scope of service. The Jedi defend peace and democracy. They have investigations and missions. They don't patrol. Not in the waning days of the Old Republic, not a thousand years prior during the High Republic, not five thousand years prior in KOTOR, not in any form of Star Wars that has been put out in legends or current canon to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> Jedi aren't beat cops, no matter how much you think they should be.


You say that like the only thing they would do would be tracking down muggers or something. They arent just bigger versions of cops, as you say, theyre a monastic order dedicated to certain principles. Patrolling may not be the best word, but I find the idea that they wouldnt care about or want to improve the conditions of Coruscant's lower city to be absurd.

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## Peelee

> You say that like the only thing they would do would be tracking down muggers or something. They arent just bigger versions of cops, as you say, theyre a monastic order dedicated to certain principles. Patrolling may not be the best word, but I find the idea that they wouldnt care about or want to improve the conditions of Coruscant's lower city to be absurd.


I didn't say they wouldn't care about or want to improve Coruscant lower city. I said that's not in their scope. Sure, they may help out where they can, but that's not their primary duty of care. You may think that's ridiculous, but that's how it's been in all Star Wars media to date, going as far back as 25,000 years before BBY.

Look at it this way. I'm trying to rejoin my federal agency. I may care about the poorer parts of the city I'll be in. I may want to improve conditions there. But that won't be my job. There are other agencies in charge of that. I would not "patrol". Nor would I "figure out why people are desperate enough to resort to crime on the y'know, capital planet of the Republic and report back to senators on how to enact policy for the peoples benefit," as the originator of this whole tangent puts it. Because, again, that's not my job and that's not the Jedi's job.

It's like Chirrut not having any Force abilities. It doesn't matter how absurd you think it is, it's how it is.

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## hamishspence

> It's like Chirrut not having any Force abilities. It doesn't matter how absurd you think it is, it's how it is.


It's possible that the Databank's entry on him stating he "lacks Force abilities" refers only to_ active_ things like telekinesis.

A later source (Ultimate Star Wars: New Edition) apparently suggests that his connection to The Force is what makes him so able to fight like he can see.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Chirrut_Îmwe




> Force sensitive
> 
> In the Ultimate Star Wars, New Edition, it is stated verbatim "He has great respect for the old Jedi Order and _seems to have an innate Force connection, allowing him to sense things before they have happen_ -- a sort of vision without eyesight (he is blind)"

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## Peelee

> It's possible that the Databank's entry on him stating he "lacks Force abilities" refers only to_ active_ things like telekinesis.
> 
> A later source (Ultimate Star Wars: New Edition) apparently suggests that his connection to The Force is what makes him so able to fight like he can see.
> 
> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Chirrut_Îmwe


Ahhh yes, having Force abilities without "having Force abilities". Almost as if they shouldn't have claimed he didn't have Force abilities to start with. Although frankly if Donnie Yen hadn't decided to make Chirrut blind it wouldn't have been much of an issue anyway.

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## Sapphire Guard

The 'Jedi lack technical skills' thing seems to be more a gameplay balance thing than something true in universe.

While there appears to be a perception there that the Jedi are ignoring the lower levels, when Ahsoka loses her lightsabre their information is so on the ball that the guy in the library can identify something as small as a pickpocket in about thirty seconds with no more information than where it happened and that the perp looks vaguely aquatic.

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## Grim Portent

> The 'Jedi lack technical skills' thing seems to be more a gameplay balance thing than something true in universe.


It is broadly true, in that most Jedi are only good at one or two things outside their normal field of duty and it's not enough to maintain the supplies they need to perform their duties.

A few Jedi can maintain and repair ships, weapons and so on, but even before the war this isn't enough to handle all the mechanic jobs they need done, it's not even part of the full time duties of the Jedi. There's no Chuck the mechanic who's swapped his robes for overalls and his lightsaber for a wrench spending 9 hours a day in the hangar. There's a few weirdos like Anakin who spend a few hours every couple of days working on their own stuff and maybe taking a look at someone else's things from time to time, but the majority of the Jedi don't have the knowledge, time or inclination to fix their own ships.

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## Fyraltari

> I'm not saying that Anakin is objective (he's not), only that he is at least theoretically more objective than essentially every other member of the Order. Since the Jedi obviously weren't going to go with a non-Jedi for something like this he's as good as it gets.


I mean, they have outsiders they trust, like Bail Organa or that diner owner Obi-Wan knows, I'm sure they could find _someone_. It's not really a complaint though. I just find it funny that they went to Anakin for someone whose attachments wouldn't get in the way of completing his duty.





> Windu says it himself in AotC "Jedi we have left."


I don't remember, in hwich scene?



> The Order, in the PT, is at the end of a prolonged, _massive_ decline in size, one traceable to both a decline in recruitment and extremely harsh standards for becoming a Jedi - the very existence of the Service Corps, which probably contains more members than there are Knights, is emblematic of this. Jedi numbers during periods such as KotoR, SWTOR, or even the New Sith Wars that immediately preceded the current post-Ruusan Era were orders of magnitude higher.


What would the decline be caused by?




> This is a critical point with regard to everything surrounding the PT and the Rise of the Empire and it's a fundamental part of the Rule of Two plan of Darth Bane. The Jedi and Sith respond to each other. Every time the Sith grow strong the Jedi rally and the Order absolutely explodes in numbers and strength. When the Sith weaken, the Jedi for there is no active threat they find it necessary to oppose. Standing at the tail end of one thousand years of unprecedented peace and prosperity the Jedi Order is cripplingly weak and monstrously overstretched. 10,000 knights and masters is barely enough to patrol Coruscant (with 1,000,000,000,000 citizens), never mind the whole galaxy.


The notion that there would be more Jedi in periods of war than peace makes zero sense to me. War is when Jedi are getting killed, prosperity ought to make them grow. The idea that the rule of two would weaken the Jedi Order seems rather bizarre.




> Except we see Jedi make their own lightsabers in this very show and it is a decidedly not-technical process.


What? Yes it is. They have blueprints to follow and Petro places a matrix the wrong side up turning his lightsaber into a miniature bomb. Just because they're using telekinesis rather than pliers doesn't make it non-technical. The crystal is the only magic part. The rest is mundane technobabble.





> The opposite is true. The Jedi have a highly focused education that is extremely esoteric. They are monks, and they practice a monastic regimen, one that happens to include a highly martial component. Yes we see characters with other skills but those characters are mostly elite exceptions. TCW has an unfortunate tendency to focus on the most elite 0.1% of all Jedi, not anyone average. Most Jedi don't fly their own ships, they have someone else to fly them around, whether its a member of the service corps, Judicial Officers (like the guys who fly Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to Naboo in TPM) or just piloting droids.


If that's true, it's the wonder the Jedi get anything done. (which might explain things, in hindsight.)




> For the record, in Legends the light-side ending of Kotor II is canonical, in which Meetra Surik rejects basically everything Kreia has said throughout the game. Also, Surik (the Jedi Exile) wasn't responsible for the restoration of the Jedi Order, since following the events of the game she reunited with Revan and was killed attempting to defeat Valkorion (in his guise as the Sith Emperor Tenebrae) and spent centuries in a bizarre second career as a Force Ghost. The Order was instead reorganized by Visas Marr, who was Darth Nihilus' former apprentice and never listened to Kreia much at all.


The Light Side ending doesn't have the Exile reject everything Kreia said, that's the Dark Side ending (the one where Kreai is almost frothing in anger at the purposelessness of your actions). In the Light side ending she seems borderline proud of the Exile (not as much as in the neutral ending). The game is very open to interpretation by design and what the exile learned or didn't is of course up to the players, but my interpretation of what it's getting at is that Kreia is using the socratic method to teach, deliberately making the Exile confront and question her and manipulates event to wipe both of the Sith and the Jedi's old guard out so that the Exile and their companions may renew the Jedi into a less dogmatic and and rigid organisation, more in line with rEvan's philosophy, so that they could stand to the True Sith and do better by the galaxy. Yes the Exile wasn't the one to do so, but Visas, Mira, Bao-Dur, Brianna and Mical would and they are _The Exile_'s apprentice and heirs to whatever it was that they kept from Kreia's teachings.

----------


## Mechalich

> The notion that there would be more Jedi in periods of war than peace makes zero sense to me. War is when Jedi are getting killed, prosperity ought to make them grow. The idea that the rule of two would weaken the Jedi Order seems rather bizarre.


Militant organizations are usually more popular during times or war than times of peace, whether that's the army straight up or paramilitary religious groups like the Jedi. The only time this isn't true is when there's no public support for the conflict. Since the Jedi generally only fight defensive wars, that doesn't really apply to them. Every time some hideously evil empire attacks the Republic - in Legends this happened with distressing regularity - Jedi recruitment surges, especially if the Jedi Order drops the barriers to recruitment and does things like accept adults. Now, obviously there's a time lag involved since it takes years to train up a full-fledged Knight, but most galaxy-scale conflicts are prolonged enough that a few decades to fully expand isn't a big deal.

The key aspect of the Rule of Two is that the Sith _went into hiding_. They stopped trying to dominate the galaxy using massive fleets and giant armies. Freed from the pressure imposed by the Sith (and all their various wannabees and hangers-on) the Republic inaugurated an era of unprecedented peace and prosperity. It even expanded it's territory by astonishing amounts, taking control of huge chunks of the Outer Rim and bringing at least a semblance of democracy and the rule of law to areas that had previously had none. In doing so it made the Jedi appear _unnecessary_. They were relics of a bygone age who weren't worth the tax dollars the Republic was paying to support them and whose strange religious quirks came under ever-greater scrutiny as a result. 

Then, when the Republic, overextended by its prolonged expansion and subject to outdated legal systems suited for a much smaller state, began to suffer massive corruption and a huge economic downturn starting ~100 BBY (partly natural, partly due to the background machinations of Darth Plagueis), the Jedi Order was not strong enough to hold the peace together. The Disney canon actually sets the date of 82 BBY as the end of the 'High Republic' Era. Various Legends material, such as the Republic comics run which directly informed the development of TCW (Asajj Ventress and Quinlan Vos were lifted more or less wholesale from such sources) go into the gradual decline and lack of sufficient Jedi resources in some detail.

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## Sapphire Guard

What's with this 'purging the old ways via extermination' being a positive thing SW keeps doing?

It doesn't really make sense to have Anakin investigate, but main characters get main character privileges.





> It is broadly true, in that most Jedi are only good at one or two things outside their normal field of duty and it's not enough to maintain the supplies they need to perform their duties.


Well, insofar as they're not full time mechanics, sure, but that's true of basically everyone else in the galaxy too. You would have individual Jedi who specialise in different things, some of them would be good engineers, some of them would be good forensic , and so on. By the nature of Jedi=ing, though, they will have to spend long periods on missions away from home, so they'd need a good grounding in how to maintain their gear themselves.

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## Mechalich

> Well, insofar as they're not full time mechanics, sure, but that's true of basically everyone else in the galaxy too. You would have individual Jedi who specialise in different things, some of them would be good engineers, some of them would be good forensic , and so on. By the nature of Jedi=ing, though, they will have to spend long periods on missions away from home, so they'd need a good grounding in how to maintain their gear themselves.


Their gear is pretty simple though. Jedi carry a lightsaber and their clothes and in many cases almost nothing else. They may use starships, or speeders, and such, but since they generally don't own them (it is variously implied in some sources that Jedi _don't own anything_, with even their lightsabers being ultimate the property of the Order) and the likelihood that they would break down on any given mission is fairly low they don't need to know how to maintain them because some really basic repairs - similar to the average person's relationship with their car. The average clone trooper carries much, much more gear that they need to be able to maintain and repair than a Jedi does. 

As to spending missions far from home, that's an interesting conundrum, actually. Jedi Knights aren't explorers, especially not during the PT era where they have a dedicated Exploration Corps for that purpose. The Knights are actually paramilitary government operatives whose role is most similar to militarized intelligence agents, something like Ethan Hunt of the Mission Impossible films. They'll spend a lot of time in 'rough' areas, but only rarely leave civilization behind.

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## Peelee

> Their gear is pretty simple though. Jedi carry a lightsaber and their clothes and in many cases almost nothing else.


You're forgetting utility pouches and food cartridges. The utility pouches almost certain weren't empty, though there's not really much on what they had in them. At least rebreathers, apparently, according to TPM.

----------


## Mechalich

> You're forgetting utility pouches and food cartridges. The utility pouches almost certain weren't empty, though there's not really much on what they had in them. At least rebreathers, apparently, according to TPM.


_Some_ Jedi are carrying additional resources, some are not, which is why I said 'in many cases.' Even when they do carry additional gear much of it is probably disposable. For example, the rebreathers in TPM, neither Obi-Wan or Qui-Gonn had the least idea how to maintain or repair those, and frankly it wouldn't make sense for them to know that. They were disposable items requisitioned for a single mission to a highly aquatic planet. And there are Jedi who we know aren't carrying the least bit of gear beyond their lightsabers because we can see it, such as Aayla Secura and Ahsoka (problematic as it may be, some Jedi apparently go into battle wearing lingerie. Sith too). 

I'm not saying that Jedi don't carry gear, they do, and in earlier eras they often wore fairly complex armor that they presumably personally maintained, but they carry much less gear than a comparable non-Force-using elite paramilitary. Boba Fett, for example, has enough gear on him to outfit an entire company of Jedi.

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## Peelee

> _Some_ Jedi are carrying additional resources, some are not


Most, if not all, do. It's usually concealed by the outer robes but when they shed that virtually all Jedi have pouches and food capsules on their belts.



> For example, the rebreathers in TPM, neither Obi-Wan or Qui-Gonn had the least idea how to maintain or repair those


I don't recall a scene where they needed to repair or maintain them and were unable to.

----------


## Dargaron

> I don't recall a scene where they needed to repair or maintain them and were unable to.


To build off of this, don't they also, immediately afterwards:

1: Pilot an unfamiliar alien submersible?
2: Navigate said alien submersible through what Boss Nass describes as "the planet core"?
3: Repair said alien submersible in a matter of minutes after it loses power during a monster attack?

The opening to TPM isn't a very good place to look for evidence of Jedi lacking a well-rounded skillset. And Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon aren't usually characterized as uniquely tech-savvy Jedi.

----------


## Peelee

> To build off of this, don't they also, immediately afterwards:
> 
> 1: Pilot an unfamiliar alien submersible?
> 2: Navigate said alien submersible through what Boss Nass describes as "the planet core"?
> 3: Repair said alien submersible in a matter of minutes after it loses power during a monster attack?


Sure, but they also had Jar Jar Binks with them, so ya know, each of those things would have been even harder.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Fyraltari

*Season 5, Episode 18: The Jedi who Knew too much*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

According to the opening narration, Letta's last name is "Turmond" and not "Bomani" as I had assumed based on her husband's name. This is what I get for living in a patriarchy. anyway we open with the funeral of the six Jedi who died during the bombing. PResent are many Jedi as well as important Republic people, such as Palpatine, MAss Amedda, Bail Organa, Mon Mothma, Wilhuff Tarkin and some I don't recognize. Yoda makes a little speech about being "luminescent beings" and that the flesh is a temporary vessel. He asks for a moment of silence to remember them. Moment of silence that Ahsoka quickly breaks by asking Barris Offee, who is standing next to her, if she knew any of them. Indeed, one of them called Tutso Mara used to train with her and even taught her the correct way to grip a lightsaber. Yoda concludes that the dead will live through them and the bodies are lowered into cremation devices.

Later, Ahsoka, Barris and Anakin are walking with Tarkin on his way out. Ahsohe tells them that Letta has been moved away from Jedi custody and into the hands of the Republic's military. Ahsoka takes offense at this, saying that the investigation is a Jedi affair. The admiral counters that clones were killed too, and that an attack on the JEdi is also an attack on the Senate. Anakin agrees, especially since Letta isn't Jedi herself. Ahsoka gets angry and says that if LEtta is guilty she should be dealt with. I'm not sure why she would expec tthe GAR to be more lenient towards a suspect than the Order. Anakin tells her to calm down, revenge isn't the Jedi way and all that. Tarkin adds that the Chancellor is very insistent that the Jedi be removed from as many military affairs as possible. After all, don't they themselves insist they are peacekeepers, and not soldiers? Point for team Palpatine on that one. Ahsoka hopes Palps knows what he's doing. "I assure you that he rarely does anything without a strategy." Dun, dun, dun. Barris tells Anakin and Ahsoka she has stuff to attends to (calling them "Master*s*", what the hell) and takes her leave. Anakin tells his padawan to go be with her friend and joins Tarkin in the elevator leaving the Temple. tHey note that, in certain ways, she is still very young. Well, what do you expect, she's like 14.

Ahsoka catches up to Barris who accepts her offer of company. Tano admits that she's conflicted, it's hard not to form attachment and be in pain when things like this happen. Offee asks her if she's ver wondered if ignoring their emotions is really the right thing to do. She quotes Anakin saying "our struggle as Jedi is to move past them." She damits it isn't easy, but doable. She reminds her of the two of them being buried under rubble on Genonosis, all the way back in season 2, and how they managed to move past their fear. Barris says Ahsoka has always been capable of seeing clearly and Ahsoka deflects the compliment, saying sh emust have fooled Barris and everyone else. However, Anakin calls Ahsoka as they're needed in the war room. Something about a Separatist attack. before leaving, Tano tells Offee that she (Ahsoka) "has to" believe that one way or another Letta will pay for what she's done. Barris doesn't really reply to that, just telling her not to keep Anakin waiting. Ahsoka runs off while Barris looks sad and unsure.

In the war room, Holobi-Wan Kenobi discusses moving troops to Saleucami, going out of their way through the Anuat system to avoid some neutral systems. I note that Anakin and Ahsoka are the only non-masters present in the room. It looks like the two of them really are given tasks and trust above their station. Kind of makes Anakin's expectation to be promoted in RotS feel a bit more justified. He's interrupted by a call from Tarkin to inform them that Letta wants to speak to Ahsoka. She won't say why, but refuses to speak to anyone else. Ahsoka agrees and promises to report everything to the Jedi. The military base she's headed to is a huge building shaped somewhat like the top of Republic destroyer, surrounded by anti-air towers and semany parked tanks and gunships. The clones stationned there all have red markings on their armor, making them look more intimidating. She's greeted by Commander Fox, who congratulates her on catching Letta on behalf on the clones killed in the attack. He has her scanned and demands her weapons and comm-link before letting her through, which she obliges to. They cross a corridor barred by several shield-like obsatcles before reaching the cells, who are ligned up in an hexagonal corridor with angled doors leading to a flight of stair descending into the cell proper, just like on the Death Star. That an the variation on the Imperial March playing really drive home how empire-like the Republic is turning. Fox unlocks the door to Letta's cell and she walks in.

Letta tells Ahsoka that she was told that should she need help, she should contact Ahsoka. Tano asks Fox to leave them alone, which he does. Letta tells Ahsoka it wasn't her idea to feed Jakar the bomb, there is someone else behind all of this, a Jedi. She's coming forward with this now because she's afraid for her life. Ahsoka doesn't believe her. Letta says many like her think the Jedi Order have become warmongers, killers instead of peacekeepers. And that one Jedi agreed with them. And that Jedi was the one one who came up with the plan to attack the Temple to make a statement. She realizes now that she's been set-up and wants to bargain the identity of the mastermind for protection. Ahsoka insists she tells her but just before she can, she starts choking and levitating. We cut to a security room where the camera feed shows Ahsoka reaching for Letta who is flying and choking. Wait a minute. On those other screens. That's Watt Tambor, Poggle the Lesser and someone I don't recognize. ARE YOU TELLING ME THEY'RE STILL CAPTURED AFTER ALL THAT TIME! What the hell? The camera feed dies and the clone monitoring it warns Fox who rushes there with a couple grunts. He gets there just in time to see Ahsoka touching Letta's lifeless body. He says he doesn't blame her but has to put her under arrest, despite her cries of innocence.

Later on, Admiral Tarkin visits Ahsoka in her own cell. She tells him she doesn't know what happened, just that Letta was afraid of a Jedi. He doesn't need explanation, though, as the camera feed is recorded. He shows her an hologram of her, arms strectched out towards a flying, struggling Letta and notes that "curiously" the sound isn't working on this one. He concludes she's guilty, especially given how upset she was about Letta being placed in military custody. He doesn't believe anybody could sneak in a facility this secure, and if some Jedi did, how come Ahsoka didn't sense them? She has no answer and he leaves. Later yet, Skywalker, worried about Tano, is arguing with Fox to be let in. However, the commander has received strict orders from Tarkin not to let anyone in the presence of Ahsoka. He makes a scene so Fox has him escorted out by clonetroopers with electrostaffs, noting that this is Tarkin's jurisdiction, not Anakin's.

Even later on, Ahsoka realizes that the door to her cell is open (with a ray-shield in place, instead) and on the other side there's a keycard laying on the ground. She thanks Anakin for not letting her down and levitates Force-moves the keycard to open her cell completely. Well, since his training made you this reckless, I'd say he's let you down _a lot_. She walks out wondering what his plan is. She gets to the checkpoint, finding all the ray-doors wide open and three clones laying unconscious on the ground. As they start to wake up, she picks up her lightsabers and comm-link from the ground where they were just resting inconspicuously. He comm is beeping but she only hears white noise trying to answer it. this distract her long enough for Fox to walk in on the other side of the checkpoint and sound a general alert. there's a random homage shot of a protocol droid and an astromech walking down a corridor as Ahsoka runs past them and into a trio of clone who immediately run after her, while yelling at her to stop. One of them closes balst doors deliberately stopping them form running after her, for some reason and tells Fox where she is. Ahsoka cartwheels through closing blastdoors and run into Fox. She takes a turn and comes across three more clones. Dead ones. With clear lightsaber inflicted wounds still hot. Anyway, Fox starts blasting. She runs off while he calls in a code red and orders to shoot to kill. Anakin runs (with Rex in tow for some reason) and tells him to belay that order (at no point does he visibly do so). Rex doesn't believe Tano would do this, but if it's not her, who? Anakin starts talking loudly to Ahsoka, with the echo carrying his voice to her, telling her to stop running. She says she's being set up. She stops running and tells him she's being set up. Shouldn't every clone in the vicinity converge toward her if she can be heard that clearly at such a distance? Also, this place must be noisy as **** with accoustics like that. All I'm saying is this would have been a great place to use some of that good old force-telepathy form ESB. Skywalker believes her, but she doesn't think anyone else will and runs away again. Anakin has Rex call secuirty to have them search the entire base. He does so, pointing out that Commander Tano should be considered armed and dangerous. So, about that, shoot to kill order?

There's another ANH homage shot with a squad of troopers running past a hiding Jedi, only Ahsoka hid in the ceiling, unlike Obi-Wan. She makes her way to the courtyard where the clones are using some kind of lizard attack dog to search for her. The courtyard is full of giant statues of armoured clones, a huge golden wall with writing I can' make out on it (list of battles, maybe?) and many red flags (heh!) with the Republic's logo emblazoned in black on them. Hmm, it's pretty rare to see actual flags in SW. Ahsoka eaveds on lizard-dog by climbing up the statues. Interestingly the lizard handler is wearing scout-trooper armor with a piece of cloth flapping over the lower side of his head. Fow walks into the courtyard and spots Ahsoka. She runs on top of the wall towards the parked speeders while the clones (and one anti-air turret!) fire at her. The turret destroys her turret and the explosion knocks her back, I guess she figures the clonetroopers are too close for her to steal a gunship or something so she run away on foot. Anakin gets there and Fox informs him she's running towards the "industrial pipelines". Anakin yells "set weapons to stun! I want her alive!" We're really big into ANH today, aren't we?

Ahsoka runs on catwalks alongside the pipelines while taking stun-fire from multiple directions. She parries with her lightsaber, which I guess puts to rest the question of whether lightsabers can parry those blue circles thingies. They can, but not reflect them, apparently. Two gunships take off and Anakin reiterates his order not to shoot to kill, he wants them to box her in, and for the gunships to act as his eyes in the sky. I think he calls one of the pilot "Eyeball". IS that the clone's actual name? Clones are closing in on Ahsoka so she jumps over some big reservoir things to another catwalk, but despite her mobility, she can't outrun a gunship. One of them flies parallel to her and opens its doors, with the clones inside raining stun-fire on her. One of them tires of it and shoots a rocket next to her (on the *industrial pipelines!*) knocking her off the catwalk, allowing the clones on foot to catch up to her. She runs some more until she finds herself surrounded. She jumps on a pipeline and cuts a hole open in it, jumping inside.

Turns out the pipelines are completely empty, save for some water at the bottom. And also form a maze, which ahs got to be the least effective way to make a pipeline. If they wanted a sewer chase scene, why not have it be in an actual sewer. Besides since Coruscant is literally covered in buildings, they would probably need storm drains like the one those "sewer" often look like in movies and games. Of course, Skywalker and the clone run after her, but without the visibility they had previously, they have to spread out at each crossing. Anakin, sensing his Padawan through the force is the only one who correctly guesses which way she went and catches up to her as she reaches an opening. An opening overlooking a huge pit descending in the belly of the planet-city. She accuses him of not even trying to come and help her. He says they wouldn't let him through and forcing his way would have done more bad than good. She insists she's not guilty and he says that the only way to prove her innocence is to come back with him now. She doesn't now who to trust. He insists she need to make her case to the Council. She refuses to take the fall for someone else. he orders her to come with him and asks her to trust him (in that order), while ignoring Fox (I think) calling for him. She says she trusts him, but no-one else will believe her. So he has to trust her now. He says he does and she says she knows that. Then she jumps off and onto a descending ship just as Fox and Rex get there. Anakin clearly could follow but doesn't. End of the episode.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Well, I hope miss "running proves you're hiding something" will reconsider her position, now.

This one was really good, showcasing very well the turn for the worse that the Republic is undergoing and the chase scene's switch from location to location kept it from feeling dragged out.

I wish we had seen more of Ahsoka and Barris's friendship though. This is the first time we've seen Barris since season 2 (plus a little silent cameo last episode). Would it have been that hard to show them interact in the few episodes where Ahsoka was at the Temple? This reminds me of Padmé's Rodian "uncle" who got to have a couple scenes in the arc that killed him off but had disappeared from his introduction to that.

Tambor and Poggle still being in jail is wild. Remember how Gunray being taken prisoner was such an emergency for Sidious he had Ventress under orders to kill him if necessary to prevent the Jedi having an opportunity to talk to him and Dooku burned his mole in the Senate Guard? Why aren't these two just as important? Also, remember how Embo and the bounty hunters involved in the plot to _assassinate the Supreme Chancellor_ casually escaped off-screen?

Not sure why Rex was in this one, he seemed redundant with fox, but maybe it will matter in the rest of the arc. 

Tarkin's little comment about Palpatine and strategies is interesting. I don't think he knows Palaptin is playing both sides and intends to destroys the Jedi, but he definitely realized that Palpatine is working to turn the Republic more authoritarian (maybe even make himself Chancellor-for-life) and is trying to curtail the powers of the Jedi ORder, something Tarkin agrees with both as a matter of principle and because he wants to be in a good position with the coming New Order. He is probably cultivating his friendship with Anakin at least partially because he figures the Jedi's golden boy and Palpatine's protégé will probably be useful to his career at some point. I suspect that's why he apparently allowed Anakin to come back to visit Ahsoka, to protect their working relationship.

Letta wasn't very clever, was she? It seems she expected the traitor to make the grand political statement that ought to have come with the terrorist attack and came to the Temple to try to work out why that wasn't happening. Still, since she suspected the traitor to be setting her up, her doing what they told her and call Ahsoka is really the dumbest move possible. Should have called for anyone else, really. Anakin even.

Her being instructed to call Ahsoka specifically, instead of just any Jedi is interesting. This is a targeted attack. I guess it makes sense to target someone who was off-world during the attack, both to ensure they wouldn't be killed and also because it makes it look like Ahsoka deliberately crafted an alibi for herself. Of course I suspect Ahsoka wasn't suspected at random. One part of any good frame-up is still missing though: the fake motive. I'm guessing a big pile of credits traceable to the Trade federation of the Intergalactic Banking Clan will be found in Ahsoka's cell at the Temple. It's a pretty good plan, as far as I can tell the one real gamble was whether Ahsoka would try to escape, but anyone who knows her a little bit could guess that. But Tarkin is right that it is very odd that Ahsoka and Anakin couldn't sense the presence of the traitor in their vicinity at any point. Speaking of Tarkin, I wonder if he's involved? He was the one who authorized Ahsoka to visit Letta, kept her isolated and presented her with the obviously tampered with recording, not caring about the broken audio. Obviously his help would explain how the traitor got access to the prison, could sabotage security equipment and get away with it. Tarkin has no obvious reason to go after Ahsoka, in fact she saved his life back during their escape of the Citadel (but I don't expect him to be grateful in any way), but Palpatine might have told him to, in an effort to further emotionally isolate Anakin. Especially since he didn't seem overly fond of her in the early seasons.

Ahsoka taking the bait is kind of dumb, but completely in character, like Anakin said, she's till young and like I said, his training isn't doing anythin to curb her impulsiveness. She can't accept not doing something to get her out of this mess and is so eager for action she doesn't even question the obvious bait. Like Yoda says "The [girl] has no patience [...] never [her] mind on where [she] was, what [she] was doing. You are reckless!" 


Next up: *To Catch a Jedi*. Obviously Ahsoka will be hunted by the Republic and the Jedi all over Coruscant while she tries to find out who's really responsible.

We're getting really close to the maximum page count of a thread. I had hoped to finish the season before that, but it looks like it isn't happening, so I am most likely going to make a new thread to post the next episode in.

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## Kornaki

I take it from your post that you have no guess which jedi set this whole thing up right now?

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## Fyraltari

> I take it from your post that you have no guess which jedi set this whole thing up right now?


I think I remember being spoiled that, but I might be wrong.

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## Grim Portent

> I think I remember being spoiled that, but I might be wrong.


In retrospect it was a genius move for it to be Gascon from the last droid arc. I never saw that coming.

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## Kornaki

I feel like the only reasonable candidate is Palpatine, who has both the means to do everything that was done,  and also the motive to put anakin against the other jedi on whether ahsoka is innocent. 

It also fits with the theme of the last episode,  that Palpatine is cleaning up loose ends so everything is ready for the next movie. 

That said,  it's being played up as a mystery,  and Palpatine is such an obvious candidate, that it's probably someone else.

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## Sapphire Guard

> He doesn't believe anybody could sneak in a facility this secure, and if some Jedi did, how come Ahsoka didn't sense them?


*Spoiler*
Show

 This is an excellent point that is never addressed.  How did the real culprit get in?

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## dancrilis

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
>  This is an excellent point that is never addressed.  How did the real culprit get in?


*Spoiler*
Show

The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

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## Fyraltari

I didn't notice it at the time, but during last episode, when a clonetrooper shot a rocket at ahsoka, she lost her lightsabers and only Force-pulled back her original, long, green one, leaving the short, yellow one behind.

we are still on page 49 of this thread, with thirteen posts left to go before we hit page 50, so I'm posting this episode review here, and with luck, I can post the next one too (I'll ty to do it beofre the end of the week), meaning that we'd start the next thread with the first episode of season 6 and that this one would cover the inirial run of the show exactly, which is too nice for me not to try. Therefore:

*Season 5, Episode 19: To Catch a Jedi*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

A storm is raging outside the Temple, for the mood, I assume. Admiral Tarkin is informing the Council of the state of the investigation: he has little doubt that Ahsoka Tano used the Jedi mind trick so that a sldier would let her out, before killing him and five other clones. Hold on six clones died? We only saw three corpses last time. And that doesn't make sense. The clones keeping her lightsabers were knocked out and were waking up when Fox stumbled on her. after that she was only moving away from the detention area, which they know because they closed the blast doors and everything, she can't possibly have backtracked to kill the clone who opened her cell. Obviously, the three additional clones were killed by the traitor to procure the keycard, but even if they were killed using the Force rather than lightsabers, it doesn't make sense for Ahsoka to then switch back to non-lethal force with the three at the checkpoint. However you cut it, that story doesn't hold up. I don't know, guys, I fell like this tarkin guy may not be interested in catching the real culprit. Anyway, Master Plo Koon doesn't beleive Ahsoka would do such a thing, but Tarkin deosn't care what the Jedi believe, as far as he's concerned, Tano is responsible for the bombing and the murder of republic soldiers (and Letta's), which he calls sedition, before hanging up on them (rude). Skywalker refuses to believe Ahsoka is guilty of any of that (even Yoda thinks she _may_ be) and thinks she's trying to prove her innocence. because of how hard it is to find someone as skilled as Ahsoka in Coruscant's lower depths, Yoda elects to send two teams after her, lead by Anakin and Plo respectively. That's an... interesting choice considering both of them just voiced their belief in Ahsoka's innocence. Windu, however, objects to Skywalker taking part in this. As Ahsoka's master, he worries ani is too emotionally tied to her to act as he should. Obi-Wan supports Anakin and SKywalker "proves" his commintment to capturing her by saying it's the best way to find out the truth and that he's already send a general oder to be on the look-out for her in the lower depths. This convinces Yoda who sends them on their way.

Down, down to Goblin-Town in the undercity, Coruscanti police officers are spreading some sort of "WANTED" poster of Ahsoka among their own. I can't tell whether these guys are meant to be clones, their faces are all covered. And they completely fail to notice her, just across the street. She calls Barris Offee with her communicator. She won't tell her where exactly she is, but she tells her she's afraid someone in the Temple is framing her. Barris tells her calling on a Jedi device isn't safe, so she should find another way. In the meantime, Offee will find out whatever she can in the Temple. Ahsoka thanks her and stomps her communicator. She approaches a drunk, seemingly homeless man on the sidewalk and trades him a stick of food(?) in exchange for his cloak. It's large enough to hide her silhouette and, fortunately the man (a goat-alien) had made some hole in the hood for his horns that suit her own horn-like crest-thingy well enough. Not gonna lie, this is leagues ahead of the usual "let's pull our hood up lol" Jedi disguise.

She gets on the subway, but a pair of policemen appears, asking for everyone's passes. She tries to step out of the wagon just before they get to her, but runs into three more who were g
stepping in and is immediately identified. She manages to Force-push one out of the train but the other four run after her while their colleague warns all units of her location. She runs, but has to beat the four up when a random guy slows her down by attempting a civilian arrest (or whatever it is that Peelee will tell me it's actually called), but ultimately has to jump off the ride and onto the platform of a station the train didn't stop at. Where three more policemen just happe to be. How many of them does one line need? she runs out of the station and into an elevator whose door closes just as the police opens fire on her. They miss, but one stray shot hits the controls and the elevator freefalls. What's more, there's a twi'lek child in the cabin with her. Ahsoka, slightly panicking, tries to reassure the kid before jumping to the roof and slicing a hole in it. The child yells at her in a language she doesn't speak before pressing the "emergency stop" button, bringing the cabin to a sudden halt. Ahsoka admits to not being on her game today. In fairness the fact that nothing (not even a label) distinguishes that button from the other ones is a real design flaw. She cuts a hole in the wall and jumps out while carrying the child. She thanks the kid for helping her and let them run to their mother who was waiting for them at the foot of the elevator. I wonder where that kind was, unsupervised without carrying any bag of any sort in this kind of neighbourhood that their mom was waiting for them in the street rather than at home. Seems to me the scene would have made more sense if the mother was the passenger Ahsoka pushed out while getting in and she'd have come in by with the next elevator (there are four tubes). Tano wlaks away, unaware she's being watched by a masked woman.

Meanwhile, onboard what looks like a cross between a Republic gunship and a TIE fighter, Rex reports to Anakin that Ahsoka was spotted on level 1312. Ahsoka is walking through a deserted part of town when she is tackled to the ground by her masked stalker who draws twin red lightsabers to her throat and reveals herself to be Ventress. What the hell is she doing on Coruscant of all planets? Ventress says she didn't believe the Senate would put bounty on her at first, but now she does, she says this while the camera pans to show three huge "WANTED" posters of Ahsoka on nearby screens. That got a chuckle out of me. Ahsoka accuses Ventress of framing her, which makes a lot of sense from her perspective, otherwise her presence here is just one hell of a coincidence. Which I guess it is? Ventress explains she's a bounty hunter now, as she confiscates Tano's lightsaber, and she's just earned a big paycheck. As Ventress walks her to wherever she can collect (with her mask back on), Ahsoka points out the obvious: as a Sith and a Separatist war criminal, Ventress is just as guaranteed as she is to be arrested when they get where they're going. Ventress say she's not handing her over to the Jedi but to a bondsman. Why would that change anything? Also, looking that word up is how I learned that bounty hunters are apparently still a thing in the U.S.? Wild. They reach one of the big holes that allow ships to move from level to level as Ahsoka admits that the other Jedi no longer recognize her as one of their own and she reluctantly asks for her help. Ventress opens up her mask again and asks in what star system she would ever help her. Wouldn't that expression be in what "galaxy" or "universe" in this setting? Ahsoka says she knows Dooku betrayed her and tried to have her killed. How does she know that? Did Ventress tell Obi-Wan after they escaped the Oppress brothers together at the end of season 4? And while we're at it, how did these two part ways, what happened there? Ahsoka floats the idea that the Jedi traitor might be Dooku's new apprentice. sHe says the two of them have a lot in common. (Meh?) In exchange for her help, she promises to speak to the senate and the Council on her behalf and to get her a full pardon. Yeah, and if you pull the other one it plays _Duel of the Fates_, come on! Still ventress accepts, but warns her she'll turn her in if "the tide flows against you". And that's when Anakin and the clones arrive in their TIE gunships. Anakin spots Ahsoka from a distance and jumps on the platform. Ventress dials something on a keyboard on the wall and a ray shield turns on cutting access to and from the platform. I'm sorry, isn't this, like, a public street? Why is this here? Can anybody do that? Ahsoka stops to look back at Anakin and Ventress grabs her to keep running. Since her mask is still up, Skywalker recognizes her. How has she not been arrested so far?

Skywalker orders probes to be released. They look just like the eyes of probe droids (and make the same sound), which is odd since we've already seen full probe droids on this show. Ventress takes Ahsoka to a holobooth in her neighbourhood. The Padawan can't help but comment on how "nice" the place doesn't look, prompting Assajj to tell her not everyone on this planet gets to live in a luxurious Temple. Ahsoka says she'll have to get used to that. True. Ahsoka tinkers with it to avoid her call being traced (Ventress adds that to her list of criminal acts). The padawan calls her friend Barriss, to tell her she's okay for a fugitive. She still can't say where she is, but Offee has a lead: Letta visited an abandoned munition warehouse on level 1315 shortly before the attack. Ahsoka thanks her and Barris tells her to be careful. Unfortunately, a probe spotted her and communicated her location to a group of clones who surrounds the two just as Ventress tells Tano she knows the warehouse and how to get there. The two rogue Jedi refuse to come in quietly, but Ahsoka assures the clones she's not going to hurt them. They refuse to back down. Assajj draws her weapons and start swinging. Ahsoka fights barehanded, but Ventress only uses her blades to disable the clones' weapons before joinging in the kicking and punching. A dozen unconscious clones later, Ventress points out she hasn't killed any of them. "It's the new me." Uh. They run away while the clone leader calls Plo Koon.

Ventress and Ahsoka arrive at the factory. Ventress says she's done her part, so she gives ahsoka her weapon back and reminds her to speak on her behalf. Seriously, you're done? I can just picture the speech "Look, she was a leader of the rebellion we're still at war with, killed who-knows-how-many soldiers and a few Jedi, but she helped me resist arrest and gave me directions once when I was on the run from the law, so all is forgiven right?" Ahsoka thanks her while pointing out how strange it was for them to be on the same side. Assajj can only says that these are strange times and leaves. As she walks away Ventress notices a horned shadow on a wall and ask Ahsoka what she wants. Turns out to be just one of the little vermin-like animals that seem to be all over lower Coruscant. It's kind of odd that it made a shadow this tall, though. Is there a projector lying on the ground? This distracts ventress long enough to get a traschcan flung into her face at full force. Her assaillant finishes her out with a metal pipe (why not kill her?) before stealing her lightsabers and her mask.

Ahsoka is searching the factory, not really knowing what to look for, when the traitor, wearing Ventress's mask and wielding her lightsabers attacks her. Ahsoka accuses Ventress of having a change of heart. Yes, Ahsoka, Ventress changed her mind out of the blue (after beating up cops with you), changed her clothes, lost twenty centimeters of height (seriously, Ventress has about a head on Ahsoka when the traitor and her are roughly the same height) and is uncharacteristically silent while attacking you with a mask she kept removing the entire time you've seen her. If Ahsoka doesn't work out that wasn't Ventress by the next episode, I'll be seriously disappointed in her intelligence. The traitor... Lokk I'll just call her Barris Offee, okay? You all know it's her, and even if I hadn't been spoiled, I would have worked out by now that the only Jedi with any focus this arc except for Skywalker and Tano, who is also the only one who knew where Ahsoka was headed, is female with the right build and happens to wear a similar outfit as the traitor's is the traitor.So, Barris throws a metal ... rectangle? (No idea what it's supposed to be) at Ahsoka and climbs up, with Ahsoak in tow. She asks why "Ventress" would bring her here with no answer but another assault. Offee climbs up another level and trhwos a pile of empty metal barrels at Tano. Ahsoka avoid them and gets back to Barris, who just gives way as they fight. barris slices open some pipes that start leaking steam and throws some full barrels at it. They explode, forcing ashoka to take cover and being noticed by police from outside. The police warn anakin of the suspicious activity so he heads there with rex and some more clones. In the factory, Barris grabs Ahsoka and starts literally throwing her around until she loses  her weapon. A dazed Ahsoka tries to keep fighting with kicks and punches, to no avail. Barris knocks her, through the floor, two levels down, into a room full of crates. Marked as containing nanodroids. Ahsoka turns around and sees the clone she beat up previously. She gets a "let me explain" in before being stunned. Anakin and Plo Koon arrive and the clones inform them that the nanodroids match the type used to blow up the Temple.

The two Jedi inform Yoda of her capture "without incident" as they head to the Temple. Plo tells him of the nanodroids they found. Anakin doesn't understand how Ventress fits into this. Me neither, to be frank. For Skywalker, there's more going on that they know. Windu and Plo Koon wonder if that "more" is due to Ahsoka or against her. In any case Windu hopes to keep their stray Padawan in the Temple. End of the episode.


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Why were Rex and Plo Koon here? And what was Tarkin doing all this time? Isn't he in charge of the investigation? Capturing Tano should be his job.

No, but seriously what is Ventress doing there? Corsucant has the highest concentration of Jedi in the galaxy bar none, plus her master's master, plus a ****ton of clones. It should be first place, even above Serenno, on her list of places not to be. Since both sides of the war want her dead, I'd expect her to operate only in Hutt space or something. Th elast time we saw her, she was sharing an autonous cockpit with Obi-Wan, how di she get from A to B? She hasn't been mentioned once this season, is there an episode missing or what?

It makes some sense for Barris to target Ahsoka fro the frame-up if she'd guessed in advance that she would contact her for help so that she could lead her to the factory. But the question remains of why she's doing any of this. Maybe Ahsoka is on the money and she is trying to prove her worsth to Dooku, like Krell before her? But how did she fall in the first place? And how did she get inside the detention facility unnoticed by both security (assuming Tarkin isn't in on it) and Ahsoka's sensing power (which I wouldn't bring up if the show hadn't, mind).


Next time: the finale, *The Wrong Jedi*, will hopefully answer my questions.

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## Sapphire Guard

That's the thing about these detectivy arcs, all commentary is potentially a spoiler, so we're all very quiet.

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## Peelee

> That's the thing about these detectivy arcs, all commentary is potentially a spoiler, so we're all very quiet.


Which is a shame, because
*Spoiler*
Show

The butler always did it.

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## Mechalich

> No, but seriously what is Ventress doing there? Corsucant has the highest concentration of Jedi in the galaxy bar none, plus her master's master, plus a ****ton of clones. It should be first place, even above Serenno, on her list of places not to be. Since both sides of the war want her dead, I'd expect her to operate only in Hutt space or something.


The key distinction here is that Ventress is operating in the Underworld, and not only that but a long way down. Officially the 'surface' of Coruscant, the part that's open to the sky, is Level 5127. This means that, operating on level 1312 is almost 4000 levels down. This is, honestly, insane, and the scale of this is difficult to capture. But, because I'm that kind of fan, I once made a fanon layout of the entire underworld, a spreadsheet with, yes 5127 rows. The underworld is for all practical purposes another planet or even another section of the whole galaxy. Wulff Yularen, head of the ISB, had this to say about it: "You must be joking. Go down two thousand levels and you'll find all the unrest you could ever want. Go down four thousand and you might as well be in Wild Space." (this quote is from the Thrawn novel). 

So it's quite plausible for a fugitive to hide out in the Underworld very effectively, especially if the local underworld police (the guys in masks, who are organizationally separate from the Galactic City police with their blue droids) have been bribed accordingly. In fact, the only way the encounter between Ahsoka and Ventress possibly happens at all is because the Force wants it to happen and manipulates probabilities.

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## Peelee

> This is, honestly, insane, and the scale of this is difficult to capture.


This is the best summation of the scale of anything and everything in the Star Wars universe.

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## Sapphire Guard

Still insane for her to go anywhere near Ahsoka though.

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## Fyraltari

> The key distinction here is that Ventress is operating in the Underworld, and not only that but a long way down. Officially the 'surface' of Coruscant, the part that's open to the sky, is Level 5127. This means that, operating on level 1312 is almost 4000 levels down. This is, honestly, insane, and the scale of this is difficult to capture. But, because I'm that kind of fan, I once made a fanon layout of the entire underworld, a spreadsheet with, yes 5127 rows.


First, source? Second, are you alright?
Also, how the hall has this not collapsed on itself, yet?



> The underworld is for all practical purposes another planet or even another section of the whole galaxy. Wulff Yularen, head of the ISB, had this to say about it: "You must be joking. Go down two thousand levels and you'll find all the unrest you could ever want. Go down four thousand and you might as well be in Wild Space." (this quote is from the Thrawn novel).


Okay, but the fact that they sent two Jedi and like a dozen clones after her makes me suspect, the show doesn't care to portray this this scale. And even so, it would still make more sens for ventress to be hiding in Nar Shaada or Corellia or something.

Also, Sidious could feel her from a cross the Galaxy and was worried about her becoming a pretender to the title of Sith. Feels odd he would not sense her so close and go murder her.




> Still insane for her to go anywhere near Ahsoka though.


no, but seriously, how did she get there? Last we saw her she was with Obi-Wan, did he just let her go away? Did he try to bring her in when they arrived on Coruscant and she escaped on foot, now stuck on the planet? What is going on?

Anyhow:

*Season 5, Episode 20: The Wrong Jedi*

*Spoiler: Recap*
Show

Tarkin is on the holophone with the Jedi Council. The Senate wants to indite Ahsoka for treason. Yoda wants a trial in accordance to Jedi tradition. Tarkin counters that the Senate fears an internal trial would appear biased and therefore requires for Ahsoka to be expelled from The Order so that she can entrusted to an "impartial" military tribunal.

*Spoiler: Ah, yes the Senate*
Show



The Council (not Ahsoka?) would be free to chose whoever they want to represent Ahsoka, but Tarkin recommands an outsider. That's actually good advice when it comes to the Jedi Order's public relations. Windu gives a non-commital answer and politely dismisses the admiral. Kenobi wants to stand with Ahsoka, but the other masters aren't that quick. One of them even says that being found with similar nanodroids used during the attack is enough to convict her (is it really?). Windu points out that doing what Obi-Wan suggests would be seen as opposing the Senate. Yoda decides to have Ahsoka and Anakin brought to the chamber of Judgement so that they can come to a decision.

In the Antechamber of Judgement, Anakin and ahsoka wait under the surveillance of five Jedi sentinels. Well, Ahsoka waits, Anakin is pacing nervously back and forth. Neither of them knowing what to do. A bell rings and they take place in the center of the room which lifts them (and two sentinels) in the chamber above. The pltform under Ahsoka's feet floats further up, bringing her in the middle of the assembled Masters of the Council, all looking down on her from individual balconies. Very ceremonial and clearly designed to make the accused feel small and powerless. She pleads non guilty to the charges levied against her and simply claims that someone she doesn't know used the Force against Letta. Plo Koon asks her to explain her association with Ventress. She explains they had a mutual understanding. Windu asks if Ventress helped her acquire the nanodroids. She says she was deceived, like they are. Windu asks who is deceiving them. Tano? Ventress? Someone else? She thinks it's Ventress (urgh, disappojnting), but she isn't sure. Yoda says these things are dangerously clouded by the dark Side. What is that even supposed to mean!? Anakin loses patience and accuses them of having already made their mind and just going through the motions. Yoda confirms they have reached a decision, but not an unanimous one. Windu states that the Council believes the Padawan-learner Ahsoka Tano has committed treason against the Republic and is therefore expelled from the Order, stripped of her status as a Padawan as well as all related ranks and privileges in the Grand Army and be turned over to the Republic courts, effective immediately. Anakin yells they can't do that and attempts to rush to her side but is stopped by the sentinels switching on their doubled-bladed golden lightsabers. One of them rips the beads serving as Ahsoka's substitute padawan ponytail.

Cut to the prison and Ahsoka's new (old?) cell. Anakin walks in, along with Padmé who agreed to represent her. No disrespect, but if I were in Ahsoka's shoes, I'd probably want a professional attorney, instead. Ahsoka insists she's almost certain Ventress is behind this. She asks if any of the clones see the two of them fight in the warehouse. No, they haven't seen anything. Which is pretty lucky for Barris, I gotta say. Anakin points out that Ahsoka said ventress left before she went into the warehouse (wait, wasn't it an abandoned factory, last episode?*). Ahsoka confirms that she did, but then she came back, she knows it was her because she recognized her red lightsabers. Yes, as everyone know, Ventress is the only one in the galaxy to use red lightsabers. Anakin decides that finding Ventress is the best way he can help Ahsoka right now and leaves. Padmé wants to start working on Ahsoka's defense, but she doesn't feel very optimistic about it. She thought she was truly part of the Order but everyone except Skywalker just turned their backs on her, so she doesn't really hop for a better treatment from the Senate.

In the underworld, ventress is just walking down the street when she spots Anakin looking at her from a bridge above. Well, that was fast. He accuses her of being behind everything, she tries to run away. He corners her. She puts up a valiant fight, but he's got a lightsaber and her best weapon are... two random metal rods she Force-pulled, it's not even close to a fair fight. he Force-chokes her (no Imperial march, this time). And demands she tells him what happened. She explains she was just after the bounty (with a side-order of revenge) but realized that the two of them have a lot in common: namely being abandoned by their respective masters. Anakin... doesn't take it well, but not in the angry sense, more like "shock of sudden realization." which.. okay? _He_ hasn't abandoned her, though.

Ahsoka is brought to a courtroom (talk about expeditive justice!) inside the prison, that looks like one of the death Star's bottomless pits (but with a bottom) and huge screens showing the Republic's flag. Easily the most Imperial room so far. She walks onto a platform in the middle, in cuffs and watched over by four troopers. In attendance are a few bigwigs, including Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, Chuchi andthe Jedi Council. Padmé, for the defense and Tarkin, for the prosecution walk onto their respective platforms. Presiding is Palpatine himself, flanked by a pair of Royal Guards. Not senate guards, straight up Royal Guards in their full red-robed decorative glory. His chair is also just his throne from RotJ. In-universe does that mean that he just liked the chair of Court's president that much or do you think he had it changed to his favourite design? Tarkin makes his opening statement: he intends to prove definitely that she was the mastermind behind the Jedi Temple's terrorist attack and that she eliminated her accomplices one by one after that (I mean, there's only been one death since). For these crimes, he demands the death penalty. Bet she regrets saving this *******'s life, now.

Back in the mean streets of Coruscant, Assajj tells Anakin of how she was ambushed. She doesn't think anyone but a Jedi could have sneaked on her like that, she also tells him that sicne her lightsabers were stolen, he'll have an easy way to confirm the guilt of whoever he's looking for. This doesn't help him much, since as far as he knows, Ventress is the only Ahsoka even talked to since she fled. Assajj corrects him: she saw Ahsoka call the Temple and talked to a "Barriss", in fact that was this "Barriss" that told them to go to the warehouse. Anakin tells her that if she lied to him, he'll kill her. He leaves as she muses on people making promises. So, you're not bringing her in, Anakin? Even if she's telling the truth, she's got a lot to answer for. Also, about that full pardon? Also, also, Did the question of how Ahsoka knew to go there never come up?

In the courtroom, Padmé points out that Letta called Ahsoka because she was afraid for her life. Why would Ahsoka kill her in a way that would implicate her so? Not the best argument, as one could easily suggest Ahsoka panicked and wanted Letta killed before she had any chance to talk. Also, Padmé adresses the "members of the court" who are a collection of aliens in civilian clothing. Isn't this supposed to be a military tribunal, what's going on? Tarkin sarcastically aplauds and asks why an allegedly innocent Ahsoka would be seen conspiring with a Separatist terrorist like Ventress. Ahsoka says she was set-up and that her Master will prove that when he's found the real murderer. Tarkin replies Anakin should maybe look in her direction.

In the Temple, Anakin enters Barriss's cell after a moment of hesitation. She's in. Not watching ahsoka's trial, but meditating in front of a small (religious, I assume) statue. He walks in, casually Force-pulling her lightsaber and asks her what she and Ahsoka wer talking about. The Padawan simply says she was trying to help her friend and that she hopes she's not in trouble. He says she's not, he just wants to know if anyone else knows about this conversation. She says no, that she thought she might have had a clue, but she couldn't tell her anything. She asks how he knows about this discussion. He says Ventress told him. She replies Ashoka says Ventress is the real culprit. Anakin says he doesn't believe that anymore. Barriss asks who he suspects, then, surely not Ahsoka? Indeed he doesn't. He thinks they have both been had. But there's only one way to find out the truth. He switches her lightsaber on and and she Force-pulls two curved red lightsabers out of a vase, parrying his blow. "Funny, those belong to Ventress. You should have gotten rid of them! - I think they suit me." They trade blow and he manages to kick her out of the cell. She runs away, with him in pursuit.

In the courtroom, Palpatine is addressing the audience, saying that Ahsoka might look like innocence made flesh, but they have been fooled by separatist agents before. Is this another scheme to tear the Jedi, and therefore the Republic, apart? He's having fun, isn't he? Skywalker catches up to Offee in one of the temple's main corridor. He accuses her of betraying Ahsoka's trust and she replies that trust is overrated, the only thing the Council believe in is violence. Anakin switches his own lightsaber on to fight her two blades against two blades. He's been fighting left-handed until then! She attempts to run away again, but a pair of sentinels appear at each end of the corridor demanding they cease hostilities. Instead, she jumps through a window, followed by Anakin while the sentinels... don't, for some reason. They fight on the roof of an outbuilding of the Temple until Barriss kicks Anakin down to the courtyard. Where Master Sinube is instructing a gaggle of young ones in the use of the lightsaber. Among the students are the kids from the Gathering, shouldn't they have Masters of their own, now? I thought the whole point was that they had graduated to the rank of Padawan? Also, last we saw it I called Sinube's lightsaber "lightblue, almost white", but it is clearly white here. Interesting. Offee lands on Anakin and manages to destroy her old blue lightsaber. This nice, if slightly heavy handed bit of symbolism isn't given any attention, I just know it's hers because obviously Anakin's lightsber survives this. They keep fighting while Sinube and the children do nothing. Also a sentinel cautiously walks down the stairs towards them (did they just take the long way around?). Anakin grabs Barriss's wrist and forces her to drop one saber. As the sentinels close in and he starts just beating her blade she fights more and more desparetely. Finally she lunges at him and he just Force-catches her mid-jump and slams her hard into the courtyard's tree.

In the courtroom, the head juror... judge? says that the members of the courts have reached a decision and texts it to the Supreme Chancellor. He reads it but only gets to "an overwhelming count of..." before Anakin and four sentinels barge in, escorting Barriss. He has evidence (what evidence?) and a confession from the real criminal. At the news, Ahsoka is crestfallen ("Barris? ... Is that true?"), the Jedi Masters are shocked and Tarkin is vaguely crossed, I think? Barris admits to her actions and justifies them by saying she's realized what "many in the Republic have already realized" : that the Jedi are responsible for the war, that they have lost their way and have become villains and that all of "us" should be put on trial for having fallen from the Light they held so dear and have turned into an army fighting for the Dark side (when she says that last bit the camera is on Palpatine who probably has to call on all of political training to maintain his poker face right now). She concludes that the republic is failing, it's only a matter of time. Palpatine has her taken away. She leaves, not having looked at Ahsoka once in the entire scene. Given how fas tthe law works around these parts, I can only assume her on trial is scheduled for tomorrow and she'll be executed the day after that.** Anakin looks at ahsoka with what I'd call a mix of pride and relief on his face. She looks at him with gratitude before looking down sadly.

Back in the Council's chamber, Anakin apologizes for "everything" to Ashoka. Dude, you're the last one who should apologize, here. Plo Koon offers the Council's "most humble apologies", despite the "Little 'Soka" at the end it doesn't seem as heartfelt as Anakin's apologies. Still they admit they were wrong, and compliment the strength and resilience she showed. Mundi (who was one who read her sentence in the Order's own trial) calls it the true sign of a Jedi Knight. Windu says that they now see that this was "actually" her Great Trial, they understand that the force works in mysterious ways, and because of this she has become a greater Jedi than she was before. Ahsoka looks borderline contemptuous. At any rate Yoda welcomes her back into the Order. Anakin holds her old Padawan-beads to her. She hesitates for a moment and then close his hand on them. She apologizes to him, but she's not coming back. She walks away while Anakin looks in shock, Obi-Wan is sad surprise and Mace in disapproval. I can't read Plo. Anakin runs after her. Obi-Wan would follow him but Plo grabs his shoulder and he stops. nice touch. Yoda is big sad.

Skywalker catches up to his former apprentice on the steps leading out of the Temple. yelling she he needs to talk to her. I know it's more dramatic and all, but how did she get such a lead on him. Did he have to wait for an elevator? He asks her why she's doing this. She says she can't trust herself when the Council didn't trust her (Huh? Okay.) He says *he* stood by her, and she thansk him for believing in her, but this isn't about him. He says the Order is her life, she can't just throw it away? Sounds like somebody's projecting. She says that she may be doing a mistake, but she has to sort "this"
by herself, without the Council... and without him. He says he understands wanting to walk away more than she realizes. She says she knows. Then she slowly walks away, disappearing from view, not having looked back once. End of the episode.

*I checked it was " a warehouse where they used to build munitions." Odd.
**Seriously, how are Poggle and Tambor still alive?


*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

Well, that episode was a banger. I especially like the work on the facial expressions showing a very wide range of emotions. Helped of course by the absolutely stellar music.

I don't think Ventress's getting that full pardon, guys. Or her lightsabers back for that matter. And, I just realized that Ahsoka is probably going to crash at her place for a while, because she litreally has no friends outside of the Order, the Senate or the army (well, I guess there's Lux, but I don't know if she has nay money for a flight off-world). Does the Jedi Order offer severance pay when you quit? She's probably going to have to work as a mechanic to make ends meet for while, isn't she?

I'm a bit puzzled about Sinube's white lightsber. Apprently Filoni stated once that Ahsoka's white blades in _Rebels_ represented her non-affiliation with any Order. Was he already thinking along these lines when designing this character? Or did they just think it would be cool for a wise mentor-type?

So, it seems like Tarkin wasn't in on the plot in the end. Makes me wonder why he was going at it so hard to get Ahsoka convicted. My best guess is that he figured that weakening the Jedi Order's standing within the Republic serves his authoritarian political agenda bast and he doesn't care who's being sent to the chopping block. Makes it odd that he would advise them against having aJedi serve as defense in the trial then. Perhaps Palpatine had him say that in a bid to isolate Ahsoka, and therefore emotionally hurt Anakin? Or perhaps he guessed Padmé would serve as defense, lose and therefore weaken her own standing? She's been a thorn in his side for a while now.

I like that at the very end, Obi-Wan, who was very close to Ahsoka, wanted to go after her too, but Plo Koon, also her friend, stopped him, knowing that everything he could say would just make it worse.

None of this is going to do Anakin's abandonment issues any good. I don't think he realizes it himself, but he feels like Ahsoka is casting him aside along with the Order. And of course, her decision to leave makes him his own decision to remain despite his secret marriage. And of course, he already felt betrayed by the Council over the whole "Rako Hardeen" fiasco, so now... Also, I like his moment of hesitation before confronting Barriss. He's laready worked out that she must be the traitor, but he doesn't want to confirm his suspicions and he's hoping beyond hope there would be another explanation. That another Jedi he doesn't personally knows told her about the warehouse. Also, of course ahsoka knew about him and Padmé. They're really bad at hiding it. Obi-Wan already knows too. And I bet so does Bail.

I appreciate that they took some time to remind us of Ahsoka and Barris's friendship two episodes ago. Still wish we had gotten to see it more over the seasons. To make the betrayal sting, you know? Let's talk about her plan. It makes no sense. Her motives are indeed the same as Letta said, but then why just bomb the hangar without releasing a statement explaing the motivation behind the attack? An explosion alone is meaningless! Did she place Bomani's hand where it would be found or was the explosion that clean? She told Letta to call Ahsoka in case of problems. Was she just covering her ass or was framing Ahsoka always part of the plan? How did she sneak into the base? How did Ahsoka not sense her? When she was her best friend? Did she learn how to disguise her presence in the force the way Sidious does? How? On her own? She lead Ahsoka to the warehouse, very well, but what was her plan if Ventress hadn't shown up? Fight Ahsoka barefaced? Or did she have another mask laying around? I'm willing to give her points for improvisation for this one, but how lucky was she that Ahsoka completely failed to mention to anyone that Barris was the one who told her to go there? Also I find it interesting that she effortlessly dominated her fight against Ahsoka, but struggled to keep up with an enraged Anakin. I don't know if that speaks more to the difference in skills between a young Ashoka and a soon-to-be Vader or Barris's fighting style being based on evading blows and dancing around her opponent.

As to her fall proper, there's a lot to discuss. Like I said in the recap, Anakin fighting her with her own blue lightsaber and her destroying it feels like it was deliberate. It's not emphasized in the episode, but there's an awkward cut between the moment she lands on Anakin and the one he stands up with only one weapon. I suspect there was a shot shwoing her breaking it that was removed for pacing reasons. Besides that, her saying that Ventress's red sabers suit her feels like she is admitting to having fallen to the dark Side, but her behaviour and don't really scream "darksider" to me. There's no contempt, no bloodlust, no thirst for power, no gloating. She includes herself when saying the Order should be put on trial and she avoids looking at Ahsoka during her trial. It's almost like, she's ashamed? (also, it'd explain how no-one in the Order felt the Darkness within her, but honestly they never do. That's a problem with basically every fallen Jedi backstory, from Vader to Dooku to Krell. Maybe they don't notice it if the change is gradual enough? A form of change blindness, maybe?) Can someone be a traior and a cold-blooded murderer while still on the Light Side? I doubt that matters to her victims and she'll be dead very soon, anyway. I'm a bit disappointed that her own master, Luminara Unduli was nowhere to be seen during all of this. There wasn't much room but, I feel she could have been there at the end, even if she didn't have any lines.

Her spiel against the Order is mostly correct, even if her "cure" is worse than the disease. They did start the war, they have become an army serving the Dark Side (unwittingly, they do the bidding of a Sith Lord) despite themselves and the Republic is on its last legs. As for losing their way (besides going to war), well, Jedi keep turning to the Dark Side without them noticing until it is too late and now they were fooled into thinking an innocent one had done so. Can they no longer tell the wheat from the chaff? Those who seat on the Council are supposed to be the height of wisdom, but when Kenobi and Koon, the two who know Ahsoka personally vouch for her innocence, the majority still vote to expel her. Do the Masters no longer trust in each other's wisdom? Or worse yet, do they trust in it but still decided to throw a Padawan to the wolves in order not to antagonize the Senate? A mixture of both? If that is not the Order losing its way, I don't know what is. Their attempt to pass their foolishness later as Ahsoka's Great Trial, and the Force working mysteriously through them is a cowardly refusal to admit to their own folly. How is any of this supposed to have made her a better Jedi? She was tricked through her own hot-headness twice and failed to recognize her true enemy. "Showing strength and resilience" my butt. Recklesness isn't strength and stuborness isn't resilience. It sounds more like offering her knighthood is a way to buy her forgiveness, and I can't fault Ahsoka for being insulted.

And so, Ahsoka Tano leaves the Jedi Order. Her friend, the perfect Padawan, who trusted more than she ever did in the rules of the Order cracked and tried to have her executed. The only one who actually tried to help her was her own Master, who she knows is already flouting the rules of the Order. It's no wonder she left. Not only has the Order, as an institution, wronged her, but she no longer believes in its guiding principles. Something, somewhere, at some point, went horribly wrong. She doesn't know why, but she cannot pretend there is nothing rotten in the Kingdom Danemark. Abd so she leaves the only family she can remember to sail uncertain waters. That's an act of tremendous integrity and bravery. I'd go as far as to say that by refusing to accept The Council's guilt-ridden offer, she shows great strength and resilience and ironically proves herself worthy of the title of Jedi Knight. a Hedge Jedi, if you will. A Jedi Ronin? No, that's too on the nose.

So, that was the last episode of season 5, and for a long while (how long?) the last episode of the show. Honestly, I'm gald for you guys that Ahsoka's story reached a natural, if very open-ended, conclusion (even if I'm sure she appears in season 6 and 7) before the show's cancellation, especially one that answered the question of where she was during RotS, which I'm sure many of you were wondering at the times. Even without the renewal, I feel like this arc makes for a fitting end for this show. Convictions have become muddled, those you looked up to prove themselves fallible, suspicions reins as friends turn to foe and a foe proves more of a friend to you, every choice feels like a mistake, the aftertaste of ash in your mouth foreshadows the fires that are to come, The Republic is cold and darka nd violent, and above it all, a monster sits on the throne with blood-red ghosts at his sides grinning while the world stops making sense. Isn't that what the fall of a nation feels like?


Next up: My thoughts on the season as whole. Wanted to include it there, but this got away from me and I am tired. Maybe i'll edit it in, maybe i'LL make a new post, maybe in this thread, maybe in the next. I don't know. Next episode is listed as *Season 6 The Lost Missions Episode 1 the Unkonw*, the pesiode after that is just called *Conspiracy*, Idon't know if that's part of the lost missions or what.

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## Keltest

As far as it goes, Tarkin is just a jerk. He isnt actually interested in justice or whatever, he just wants to exercise power.

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## Mechalich

> First, source? Second, are you alright?
> Also, how the hall has this not collapsed on itself, yet?


The link to the source is in the passage you quoted. As to how it stays up, presumably super-strong materials. It is not mentioned, in any source, how thick a 'level' happens to be. I assumed, mostly for convenience, that it was a relatively modest 10 meters, but that still means the built-up layer of the planet is over 50 kilometers thick. It is at least theoretically possible, using carbon nanotube derived materials, to build structures of this size. The bigger problem to paving over a planet in this way is actually heat dissipation.




> Okay, but the fact that they sent two Jedi and like a dozen clones after her makes me suspect, the show doesn't care to portray this this scale. And even so, it would still make more sens for ventress to be hiding in Nar Shaada or Corellia or something.


Sci-fi writers have no sense of scale, and Star Wars tends to be especially bad this. However, in this case the Jedi Order was presumably expecting that either civilian informants or one of the millions of underworld police officers would locate Ahsoka and then they'd pick up the trail from there - which is actually what happens in the episode.




> One of them even says that being found with similar nanodroids used during the attack is enough to convict her (is it really?).


Assuming nanodroids are illegal - which they probably are - being found with them might not be enough to convict of treason or sedition, but it might be enough to convict of a weapons charge. There are any number of real-world items who possession is illegal in various jurisdictions without a pile of permits. That would be an extremely ticky-tack charge to hang on Ahsoka, but in the current climate represents a very real threat that can be used against the Order. 




> I appreciate that they took some time to remind us of Ahsoka and Barris's friendship two episodes ago. Still wish we had gotten to see it more over the seasons.


I suspect that, had matters proceeded as originally intended, that they would have done an Ahsoka+Bariss arc to air shortly before this arc aired, which originally probably would have been done in Season Six and that Season Five would have instead ended with a different arc (probably involving Ventress in some of the material that later became _Dark Disciple_). This was never intended to be the end of the show, as a huge portion of Season Six already existed at least semi-finished prior to the cancellation. That's why those episodes got dumped to Netflix in the first place, as a means to recoup some of the money already spent making them rather than leave them in the vault.




> As far as it goes, Tarkin is just a jerk. He isnt actually interested in justice or whatever, he just wants to exercise power.


I wouldn't quite say that. It's more that Tarkin is a fascist who _actually believes_ fascism is the right path rather than one using it as a cloak for personal ambition like Palpatine is doing. Tarkin genuinely believes that the galaxy exists in chaos and that the only way to bring about order, which he perceives as essential, is through absolute domination by the elite. He also believes that elite should be military, human, and male, in that order. In a very real sense, the Empire is actually the product of Tarkin and like minded-individuals rather than Palpatine. Palpatine wants to rule the galaxy, but he doesn't see that rulership as anything other than a vehicle for his power, he does not possess adherence to any ideology. Tarkin does, a hideous and morally bankrupt ideology, but one that exists and one that he remains true to up until his death. This is actually best displayed in Tarkin's refusal to leave the Death Star during ANH. Palpatine absolutely would have evacuated. And, notably, Palpatine eventually abandons the Imperial project (in both continuities, albeit in a slightly different way each time) in order to pursue his personal divine ascension.

As a result, during the Clone Wars, Palpatine and Tarkin both want to crush the Jedi, but while Palpatine wants to do so because they are a threat to his position and his personal survival, Tarkin wants to do so because he believes that the existence of the Jedi is bad for the galaxy and that in order for there to be progress they must be removed.

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## McNum

The series initially ending on Ahsoka walking away made some sense at the time, as the movie that piloted this was where she was first introduced. Her journey from annoying brat to quite possibly one of the few Jedi who remembered what being a Jedi was supposed to be about, and therefore losing her place in the rapidly deteriorating Jedi Order is a solid series-long character arc. It also served Anakin's character well, sowing distrust in the Jedi and making him more vulnerable to Palpatine's manipulations. If the show had ended here and stayed over, it would have had a fine reputation as a self-contained story.

But this ending didn't stick quite as much as we initially thought, so welcome to the Lost Episodes! There are a few episodes in this season I'm looking forward to reading about. One thing that's new going forward is that stand-alone episodes are basically a thing of the past and everything is now at least two-parters and unafraid to take weird concepts and just roll with it.

25 episodes to go. Seasons 6 and 7 are basically half-seasons.

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## runeghost

> The opposite is true. The Jedi have a highly focused education that is extremely esoteric. They are monks, and they practice a monastic regimen, one that happens to include a highly martial component. Yes we see characters with other skills but those characters are mostly elite exceptions. TCW has an unfortunate tendency to focus on the most elite 0.1% of all Jedi, not anyone average. Most Jedi don't fly their own ships, they have someone else to fly them around, whether its a member of the service corps, Judicial Officers (like the guys who fly Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to Naboo in TPM) or just piloting droids.



Doing a thread re-read and this comment jumped out at me - I couldn't let it go by without a link to the long-running screencap Star Wars webcomic, Darths & Droids, and its musings upon Jedi and character classes:

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## Sapphire Guard

This is an interesting arc, because it manages to be very entertaining while making absolutely no sense.

How did Bariss pull off all this crazy stuff? No idea.
None of the legal procedures make any sense. 
How did no one sense Anakin drawing on the Dark Side in the middle of the Jedi temple?

Strictly speaking, expelling her to face trial was the correct thing to do, bad things happen when religious orders protect their members from prosecution. 

The actual process was nonsense, but a realistic one would take like 15 hours of screentime. 

The Jedi Council suffer from 'not knowing that the accused is a main character', Ahsoka herself was all for throwing away the key when Letta was the accused.

Is there a word for something being very entertaining despite horrible writing?

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## Mechalich

> Doing a thread re-read and this comment jumped out at me - I couldn't let it go by without a link to the long-running screencap Star Wars webcomic, Darths & Droids, and its musings upon Jedi and character classes:


I didn't mean monks in the D&D sense. Star Wars draws extremely heavily on a popularized, and rather fantastical conception of East Asian monastic aesthetics, especially that of the Shaolin Temple. The 2011 Chinese film _Shaolin_ in which a disgraced general practices 'martial zen' and achieves enlightenment by going through what is, for all intents and purposes _exactly the same training_ as a Jedi would minus the lightsabers is a very good example of this influence (it's also a movie in which Jackie Chan fights people with the power of Chef Style, so you know, worth a look).




> Is there a word for something being very entertaining despite horrible writing?


This is probably an application of Bellisario's Maxim. The needs of the medium, the production budget, and the target audience means that this story has to be massively accelerated and massively simplified, and many of the details don't make sense if you think about them much or even at all. It can absolutely be seen, from the episodes, how the novel-length version of this story would unfold and how various plot holes could be either closed or explained away.

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## Grim Portent

> None of the legal procedures make any sense.


To be fair, in the context of a corrupt kangaroo court they make sense. The whole trial is a sham anyway, the decision is foregone and made for political purposes, and is overseen by members of the executive and legislature rather than judiciary, it just needs to look fine for a public audience who are not themselves familiar with how a good trial would go. If Bariss hadn't been made to confess before the court in such a ridiculous manner then her confession would probably have been swept under the rug and Ahsoka executed regardless.

Think of it as a propoganda piece designed to create good headlines for Palpatine.

'CHANCELLOR DEALS WITH JEDI TREACHERY'

'JEDI SABOTAGES WAR EFFORT'

'JEDI: CIS SYMPATHISERS?'

'PALPATINE: FIRM BUT FAIR'

'PAPA PALPATINE PUTS PUNKS IN THEIR PLACE'

That sort of thing.

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## Taevyr

> Is there a word for something being very entertaining despite horrible writing?


When its space opera/light sci-fi, I'm fairly certain we simply call it "Star Wars"  :Small Tongue:

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## Lord Raziere

> Is there a word for something being very entertaining despite horrible writing?


Yes.

The word is....*looks surreptitiously from side to side*

*leans in close to whisper:*
*Spoiler*
Show

_Hollywood._

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## Sapphire Guard

> To be fair, in the context of a corrupt kangaroo court they make sense. The whole trial is a sham anyway, the decision is foregone and made for political purposes, and is overseen by members of the executive and legislature rather than judiciary, it just needs to look fine for a public audience who are not themselves familiar with how a good trial would go. If Bariss hadn't been made to confess before the court in such a ridiculous manner then her confession would probably have been swept under the rug and Ahsoka executed regardless.
> 
> Think of it as a propoganda piece designed to create good headlines for Palpatine.


It doesn't do that though. The whole thing is so ridiculous that it would damage his reputation to preside over it, and it essentially outs him as corrupt and dishonest to everyone including the Jedi Council and the public. It might work that way if he wasn't directly involved but could swoop in to save her at the last minute, but not when he's the judge.

It's just what happens when writers try and do a plotline when they don't have the time, budget, or inclination to do it with any believability because they have to wrap it all up in twenty minutes, don't want to make character models, and don't really care if it makes sense. Still entertaining though.

Edit: Not many murder mysteries could get away with saying 'don't think about it' to the question of 'how did the culprit do any of this?'

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## Aeson

It's a bit late, but:




> I wouldn't quite say that. It's more that Tarkin is a fascist who _actually believes_  fascism is the right path rather than one using it as a cloak for  personal ambition like Palpatine is doing. Tarkin genuinely believes  that the galaxy exists in chaos and that the only way to bring about  order, which he perceives as essential, is through absolute domination  by the elite. He also believes that elite should be military, human, and  male, in that order. In a very real sense, the Empire is actually the  product of Tarkin and like minded-individuals rather than Palpatine.  Palpatine wants to rule the galaxy, but he doesn't see that rulership as  anything other than a vehicle for his power, he does not possess  adherence to any ideology. Tarkin does, a hideous and morally bankrupt  ideology, but one that exists and one that he remains true to up until  his death. This is actually best displayed in Tarkin's refusal to leave  the Death Star during ANH. Palpatine absolutely would have evacuated.  And, notably, Palpatine eventually abandons the Imperial project (in  both continuities, albeit in a slightly different way each time) in  order to pursue his personal divine ascension.


I wouldn't say that Tarkin's behavior on the Death Star, in particular  his refusal to consider evacuation, is really all that strong as  evidence of a fanatical belief in the Empire's brand of fascism. Tarkin - unlike Palpatine -  is at least theoretically answerable to a higher authority, and as the  apparent commanding officer of the Death Star he has a duty to remain at  his post in the presence of the enemy whereas Palpatine, as in essence a  visiting political dignitary, would not (in fact, as Head of State / Government, Palpatine arguably has a duty to stay out of the way and _get out of danger_, not remain in place as little more than another headache for the local military leadership to deal with). Had Palpatine been on the  Death Star at Yavin IV and fled at Bast's suggestion, he at worst loses a  bit of face; Tarkin taking the same action under the same circumstances  at best commits professional suicide and retires in disgrace but more  likely ends both his career and his life in front of a firing squad even  with a much more reasonable boss than Palpatine is implied to be,  especially considering that the Death Star is not sufficiently damaged  to justify the evacuation of its officers and crew at any point prior to  its catastrophic destruction and the attacking Rebel force does not  appear to be capable of inflicting any amount of damage to the Death  Star between trivially insignificant and cataclysmic.

Tarkin's  apparent confidence at Yavin IV may have been misplaced and excessive,  but his response to Bast's suggestion of preparing his personal escape  ship really isn't that unreasonable and the suggestion itself could  easily be a thinly-veiled insult, a crude attempt to set Tarkin up for a  fall, or a crass attempt by Bast to cover his backside while setting up  his own escape route. The only way Tarkin's getting through the Battle  of Yavin with his career and his life intact is by winning without  disgracing himself, and he's not going to do that by sitting out the  battle in the safety of his personal getaway ship.

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## Sapphire Guard

Tarkin doesn't know he's in a movie where the million to one shot is guaranteed to come up.

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## Peelee

> Tarkin doesn't know he's in a movie where the million to one shot is guaranteed to come up.


Agreed. He's in a fortress being attacked by flies, why should he flee? The Death Star has shields, and turbolasers, and a full TIE complement, and a space wizard flying with the TIE fighters to boot. His not wanting to leave is not a manifesto as to his belief in the infallibility of the Empire. It's not even plain ol' regular hubris. It's simply assuming that they have the situation under control.

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## Keltest

> Agreed. He's in a fortress being attacked by flies, why should he flee? The Death Star has shields, and turbolasers, and a full TIE complement, and a space wizard flying with the TIE fighters to boot. His not wanting to leave is not a manifesto as to his belief in the infallibility of the Empire. It's not even plain ol' regular hubris. It's simply assuming that they have the situation under control.


I dunno, I think there is a certain amount of hubris there, as he was just informed that these flies do theoretically have the capability of destroying the fortress. Not necessarily misplaced hubris, but hubris nonetheless.

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## Peelee

> I dunno, I think there is a certain amount of hubris there, as he was just informed that these flies do theoretically have the capability of destroying the fortress. Not necessarily misplaced hubris, but hubris nonetheless.


He was told "there is a danger," which is pretty vague, and is immediately asked to fully evacuate. This is after the majority of the rebel ships have been destroyed, with the Death Star's full defenses still firing on all cylinders.

If there's hubris it's overshadowed by being reasonable.

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## pendell

> He was told "there is a danger," which is pretty vague, and is immediately asked to fully evacuate. This is after the majority of the rebel ships have been destroyed, with the Death Star's full defenses still firing on all cylinders.
> 
> If there's hubris it's overshadowed by being reasonable.


*Nod* 

Remember just how unlikely that danger was to pose any threat to the Death Star.  We'd already heard, in the Rebel briefing, that hitting the exhaust port "was impossible, even for a computer".  

And that's if the rebel fighters were taking the shot without any interference. 

As it is, they're having to do it in the face of flak , and in the face of a TIE fighter defense being led by the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy. 

Who had already destroyed two waves of attacking fighters all by himself. 

What's more, the rebel fighters were all but annihilated at this point.  We are told at the outset of the battle that there are "at least 30" but there's only about 4 flying back to Yavin after its all over.  

Put those facts into a computer to calculate odds, the answer is that Tarkin is more likely to kill himself by tripping over his feet and falling down a turbolift shaft than this Rebel attack has of posing any serious threat to the station.  

So it isn't arrogance or overconfidence on Tarkin's part. It's a cool calculation of the odds -- odds on which any military commander would happily stake his life.  If you aren't prepared to run odds significantly worse than this, you've got no business fighting battles.  

What Tarkin left out of his calculation was the Force overriding the odds and allowing the one-in-a-million shot to hit home.  But in a world that isn't governed by plot, it's better to side with the people who have 999,999 chances out of a million. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

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## Peelee

> What Tarkin left out of his calculation was the Force overriding the odds and allowing the one-in-a-million shot to hit home.


Not even that. Luke was about to die before he even got the shot off. His survival required a completely-unforseen (to Luke and the Empire, at least) Millennium Falcon to come out of seemingly nowhere to blast the attackers off him, _and then_ for Vader's surviving wingman to panic and crash into Vader's ship.

Luke got incredibly lucky there.

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