# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  +1 int feat: Skill Expert vs. Observant

## Hiro Quester

My artificer1/wizard3 enchanter is the party's only spellcaster (apart from paladin and ranger; also monk, echo knight). Enchanter means he's often in melee distance to use Hypnotic Gaze.  But most of his spells are BFC, buffs and debuffs, to help his melee-heavy party better mop up the bad guys.

Also fills the role of sneaky scout (trap finding, lock picking, or using stealth (often while concentrating on a spell).  He's a little impulsive, insatiably curious, loves solving puzzles, and is a bit of an experimenter ("let's try it and see what happens").  Expertise in perception (race gives advantage with hearing), proficiency in investigation, arcana, stealth, thieves' tools).  

I'm about to take a +1 int feat.  But which one?  

I was considering *Skill Expert* (for expertise in investigation, and proficiency in another skill like persuasion (8 CHA is limiting as an enchanter) or sleight of hand.  

But now I'm considering *Observant*.  +5 to passive perception and passive investigation makes each score 20.  20 passive scores is better than I could roll a lot of the time (currently +5 on active checks).  And it stacks with items like a sentinel shield (granting advantage on initiative and perception rolls, and thus another +5 to passive perception, making it 25).

How do passive perception rolls usually get used in situations where you are actively searching (looking for traps, or searching a room for loot)?  If you roll as an active check lower than your passive score, does/should it default to the passive score?  I hear that Jeremy Crawford once said that you can't roll lower than your passive perception (something like you are rolling to see if you beat your passive score, so the passive score is a floor you can't fall below). Does anyone know the source on this?

Observant seems very helpful for the investigator role.  A permanent +5 to passive perception and investigation seems to be more useful than expertise.  Until 17th level, when proficiency climbs to +6, a +5 to passive perception and investigation will net a much higher  result over the character's whole career. Am I understanding this right?

*Telekinetic* would also be helpful, for bonus action pushing enemies around (esp pushing them into melee friends' range, or into a web or sickening radiance effect) and a longer-distance mage hand.  

Or *Fey-touched* for always-prepared bless and misty step.  But perhaps these latter two are less thematic than something that makes one more observant.

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## Corran

How is passive perception/ investigation used when actively looking for/ into something? I'd say it's up to how you describe your character's action and after that it's up to the DM. If a player asked me if they could use their passive score instead of rolling, and there are no time constraints, I'd probably describe how the character takes a step back or a pause for a few moments/ minutes/ or whatever else sounds like the appropriate amount of time to absorb and process whatever it is that is challenging them, after which the passive score comes into effect just as if they had rolled the die.

When they roll lower than their passive score, I would be inclined to reveal any info the passive score would reveal at some point in the future, but only if I could justify it somehow. Perhaps the player tells me that their character is still perplexed about whatever it was that they rolled against (eg the possibility of someone lying, a wondrous item not revealing its mysteries, some plot they have not yet uncovered, etc), at which point I'll drop a few pieces of info that a successful passive check would have revealed and let the player go on from there. Perhaps I set it up so they can hear or see something that would trigger the memory and thus the successful passive check to apply. If I really wanted to force it I'd have the character dream of it, cause what is a very high passive insight or investigation other than a very kean subconscious? Though feeding it like that can be distasteful. Nothing distasteful though if you do it for your own character, assuming the rest of the table is cool with it (eg maybe dont do it if you have diviners or goolocks in your group, stepping on toes and all that).

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## KorvinStarmast

> *Telekinetic* would also be helpful, for bonus action pushing enemies around (esp pushing them into melee friends' range, or into a web or sickening radiance effect) and a longer-distance mage hand.  
> 
> Or *Fey-touched* for always-prepared bless and misty step.  But perhaps these latter two are less thematic than something that makes one more observant.


 I don't normally comment on artificers, at all, but these two feats I have taken for my Paladin who is also a half caster. He is now level 13.  The bless one (fey Touched) I used to add a point to wisdom, the telekinetic I added Charisma to boost my casting stat: Charisma. 
I don't use bless every adventuring day, but it is nice when I do use it.  Misty step to get out of trouble, or to chase someone down? Very handy.  
The push/shove from telekinetic I wish were 10', but I've used it a bunch to let me or an ally avoid an opportunity attack.  And once to push someone into the water. I don't think I've used it to push someone off a cliff, but it's another way it can be handy.  

Skill expert: probably my favorite feat to tweak a PC for an added skill, expertise, and a +1 to any stat. 
It is so flexible.  
Consider this: when you put expertise into perception your passive score goes up 2x your proficiency bonus.  that's +6 at level 5, +8 at level 9, +10 at level 13.  Not sure how long your campaign will be going, but that's something to consider.

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## LostBenefit

> *Telekinetic* would also be helpful, for bonus action pushing enemies around (esp pushing them into melee friends' range, or into a web or sickening radiance effect) and a longer-distance mage hand.


By RAW, you can also push an ally within 30ft 5ft away and with no save if they are willing, ending the Grappled condition and the grappler cannot do anything to prevent it.

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## PallyBass

Fey touched probably is the "best" pick for the additional spells known and prepared. That said flavor/build is more important IMO so I am liking Skill expert for your investigator. Thinking more on it, as an enchanter wizard Fey Touched is thematically appropriate too! Take your pick if you want to lean more investigator or enchanter flavor.

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## LudicSavant

> Skill Expert vs. Observant


Skill Expert is a "safer" pick if you don't know the DM, because in order for Observant to get its full value the DM has to... like... actually use passive check rules for both Perception and Investigation properly.  And, sadly, some DMs don't.

If passive checks are being regularly used, on the other hand, then Observant's a good deal.

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## AttilatheYeon

Fae touched is very powerful. Especially if you take Bane as the spell.

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## Keravath

Passive perception and investigation rely mostly on how your DM uses it. A lot of folks misunderstand what these skills are. Passive means that the PLAYER is being passive not the character. Passive means that the PLAYER does not roll dice. It does NOT mean the character is standing around trying to absorb some hidden meaning by not looking. 

Passive checks are used for tasks done repeatedly or when the DM does not want to give something away by having the players roll dice. 

If the character is not taking an appropriate action - their passive score doesn't apply. A character doing mapping while the party travels doesn't get to use their passive perception to notice an ambush because they are busy doing something else. 

So, if a character is always searching for secret doors or hidden items (which most characters ARE when moving in a dungeon or similar location) then the DM can use their passive perception to determine if they notice the secret doors. For example, in ToA, secret doors in the dungeon are noticed with a 20 passive perception if the characters are paying attention and looking. 

If the character is taking a one time action then the DM may ask for a die roll for perception. On the other hand, if the character is taking a minute searching (that would be 10 search actions) then it becomes appropriate to use the passive perception as a floor for a perception check and perhaps allow a roll in case the passive isn't sufficient. 

However, due to confusion over what passive means (some people think the character is being "passive" i.e. doing nothing - which is not correct), the application of passive skills will vary from game to game. So your best bet would be to ask your DM how they run passive checks before picking up Observant. However, if the DM uses passive skills as written, Observant can be a very good pick for noticing things as the character searches as they move along. 

As for your other picks - Fey Touched is really good depending on the context. However, a wizard/artificer can already have Misty Step (so the benefit is an extra cast/day which can still be situationally useful) and another 1st level spell. Bane and Bless are decent options for this spell (as are hex and hunters mark) depending on the build but this character seems to be mostly a wizard and they will likely have much better and more effective higher level wizard spells to use for concentration - making most of the 1st level spell picks less useful. 

Telekinesis can be fun and provides an invisible mage hand with extended range (if you already have it - and your DM goes by RAI) and requires NO components - so you can use it anywhere without being noticed. It also has the bonus action shove feature which can also be useful. You can use it to shove an attacker away or pull a team mate 5' towards you and hopefully out of melee so that they don't need to use their action to disengage or be hit by op attacks (no die roll required since a creature can voluntarily fail the save). However, this is more of a fun feature than something truly useful, in practice, I've only found a few situations where it came in handy. 

In terms of skill expert ... I'd hope the paladin is already proficient in persuasion since they have a higher charisma. On the other hand, I find that if the PLAYER likes to talk a lot and try to interact socially then it can be useful for them to have the persuasion skill even without charisma to give them a chance of success when the player has a good idea. 

If you like to talk and the paladin doesn't have the skill then skill expert to pick up persuasion with expertise in it will change the -1 to +3 in tier 1 ... +5 in tier 2 and so on - so it might be useful in a party without a persuasive character if the character you are playing is one that likes to talk.

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## KorvinStarmast

> Passive perception and investigation rely mostly on how your DM uses it. A lot of folks misunderstand what these skills are. Passive means that the PLAYER is being passive not the character. Passive means that the PLAYER does not roll dice. It does NOT mean the character is standing around trying to absorb some hidden meaning by not looking. 
> 
> Passive checks are used for tasks done repeatedly or when the DM does not want to give something away by having the players roll dice. 
> 
> If the character is not taking an appropriate action - their passive score doesn't apply. A character doing mapping while the party travels doesn't get to use their passive perception to notice an ambush because they are busy doing something else. 
> 
> So, if a character is always searching for secret doors or hidden items (which most characters ARE when moving in a dungeon or similar location) then the DM can use their passive perception to determine if they notice the secret doors. For example, in ToA, secret doors in the dungeon are noticed with a 20 passive perception if the characters are paying attention and looking. 
> 
> If the character is taking a one time action then the DM may ask for a die roll for perception. On the other hand, if the character is taking a minute searching (that would be 10 search actions) then it becomes appropriate to use the passive perception as a floor for a perception check and perhaps allow a roll in case the passive isn't sufficient. 
> ...


Man, I wish they'd have spelled that out in the basic rules as clearly as you did there. + Eleventy!   :Small Smile:

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## Hiro Quester

> Man, I wish they'd have spelled that out in the basic rules as clearly as you did there. + Eleventy!


Very much yes. That was very helpful.  

I'll talk to my DM about how he uses these checks.  But I'll probably go for Skill Expert.  It's what the character would do.  Getting another proficiency seems helpful.

The paladin does assume the role of party face.  So I don't need to talk often.  Maybe I can leave persuasion (just use suggestion and dominate spells instead), and take proficiency in sleight of hand or another knowledge skill (nobody in our party knows much about religion, and this is turning into a very gods-related campaign).

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## Psyren

If "Passive Investigation" feels silly or oxymoronic, I would recommend swapping that part of the feat over to Passive Insight.

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## Chronos

> Quoth *LudicSavant*:
> 
> Skill Expert is a "safer" pick if you don't know the DM, because in order for Observant to get its full value the DM has to... like... actually use passive check rules for both Perception and Investigation properly. And, sadly, some DMs don't.


I think that "properly" is a loaded term to use there, because the rules about passive ability checks are very vague, and say almost nothing about when they should be used (the Observant feat is the only place that passive investigation is ever even mentioned at all).  A DM who uses passive checks all the time and one who almost never uses them could both be equally said to be following the rules "properly".

Which of course just reinforces the point that you need to check with your DM to see how useful Observant will be.

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## Psyren

> I think that "properly" is a loaded term to use there, because the rules about passive ability checks are very vague, and say almost nothing about when they should be used (the Observant feat is the only place that passive investigation is ever even mentioned at all).  A DM who uses passive checks all the time and one who almost never uses them could both be equally said to be following the rules "properly".
> 
> Which of course just reinforces the point that you need to check with your DM to see how useful Observant will be.


Well obviously, "use properly" means "use the way I would"  :Small Wink:  :Small Big Grin: 

As you and Ludic both mention though, Skill Expert is the one that is less likely to be adversely impacted by table variation. It's also nice in that the skill you pick to gain expertise in doesn't have to be one associated with the ability score you increased, in contrast to something like Resilient which forces you to choose the ability score you boosted to be the one whose saves gain proficiency.

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## LudicSavant

> Well obviously, "use properly" means "use the way I would"


In this case, it means following the rules.

A common example of DMs not following the rules for passive checks (usually unintentionally) is when they get the idea in their head that "passive" means "the _character_ is passive."  As Keravath discussed.

The rules are rather vague and offer lots of wiggle room, but people often get even the parts that are quite clear wrong, and those parts are essential for Observant to earn its keep.

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## Hiro Quester

Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm think I'm going to take the safer Skill Expert feat.  

It turns out our game is getting really religion-heavy, and having someone who knows about such things will be useful for story purposes.  My character is the type to start learning more about the Gods and their followers' history after what happened in our most recent session.  

So gaining +1 int, expertise in Investigation, and proficiency in Religion seems like what my character would do.  Though I'll be on the lookout for a Sentinel Shield, too.

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## Chronos

> Quoth *LudicSavant*:
> 
> A common example of DMs not following the rules for passive checks (usually unintentionally) is when they get the idea in their head that "passive" means "the character is passive." As Keravath discussed.


What *Kerevath* said is a reasonable and sensible interpretation, and it's probably what I would rule if it came up.  It would have been good if the rules had said something like that.  But they don't, and so a DM who doesn't do it that way isn't breaking the rules.

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## LudicSavant

> It would have been good if the rules had said something like that.  But they don't


The rules do, in fact, include this stuff:




> A lot of folks misunderstand what these skills are. Passive means that the PLAYER is being passive not the character. Passive means that the PLAYER does not roll dice. It does NOT mean the character is standing around trying to absorb some hidden meaning by not looking. 
> 
> Passive checks are used for tasks done repeatedly or when the DM does not want to give something away by having the players roll dice.

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## Hiro Quester

> Telekinesis can be fun and provides an invisible mage hand with extended range (if you already have it - and your DM goes by RAI) and requires NO components - so you can use it anywhere without being noticed. It also has the bonus action shove feature which can also be useful. You can use it to shove an attacker away or pull a team mate 5' towards you and hopefully out of melee so that they don't need to use their action to disengage or be hit by op attacks (no die roll required since a creature can voluntarily fail the save). However, this is more of a fun feature than something truly useful, in practice, I've only found a few situations where it came in handy.


the DM decided to implement a flaw system. So our 4th level characters got to take a flaw and a bonus feat. Since I was playing my character as water-averse, this turned int full blown aqua phobia, and I got to take a bonus feat.

And I took Keravath's advice.  Telekinesis is a much more useful and relevant +1 INT feat right now, compared to +2 or 3 to investigation checks and proficiency in persuasion.

The 5 ft shove was also rather useful in our last game, in creating openings for fellow party members (since DM ruled that pushing someone back while they stood in front of a table could leave them prone on the table if they also failed a dex check), in pushing someone away after they saved against my Hypnotic gaze so I could disengage that round, and pushing an enemy back into a web spell.  

Having something regular to do with a bonus action makes this controller-wizard feel involved and helpful in many parts of a battle (concentrating on a web spell, hypnotizing another mook to keep him out of the fight, and pushing others around). 

The componentless invisible 60 ft mage hand is also great thematically and practically, especially since my character is the stealthy one of the group, and since they also worship a trickster god.  

I'll take Skill Expert a bit later [Edit: maybe at 9th level], when the expertise makes a bigger difference.  In the meantime, Telekinesis is a lot of fun!

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