# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 > DM Help How would you design Queen of Blades / Sarah Kerrigan?  3.5/PF

## Lorddenorstrus

So, to start with.  I've never really.. used the psionic books?  When I played more, my old DM banned the books and since I switched groups and started DMing.. my players have shown no interest in playing Psionic classes.. So I've never really delved into that rabbit hole.   

But, we're going to be switching campaigns in the near future as we've lost 2 current players and people want to switch things up.  So I took a back burner ish idea I've had and started doing work on reskinning some creatures so to speak as Zerg like ish creatures.  But I've been kind of at a loss as to how I want to design my villain who is designed as the corrupt evil version of Sarah like Terran campaign of SC2.  Yeah not an original idea but, I'm not exactly a famous writer here so I work with the 2 thoughts my brain tosses together in free time.

I figured she'd be a Psionic character but I'm stuck on how I want to design her considering I've never really delved into the psionic books very far.  Or if there might be a better way to represent her from something else.

----------


## Crake

Thrallherd with the zerg queens being thrallherd thralls, who have thrallherd thralls of their own

----------


## AnonymousPepper

Came in to say Thrallherd. I would not have been surprised if to at least some extent the people writing the XPH had played Brood War and came out of it with a few ideas. And as mentioned, it can absolutely be recursive with other Thrallherds in a chain. PsiWar 10/Thrallherd 10 is simple and would do the trick nicely, or if you wanted to be cheeky and make her even more of a blender you could toss in Telekinetic Weaponmaster for PsiWar 5/Thrallherd 10/TKWM 5.

If you're making her as an NPC, a setting boss of sorts and not a PC, and thus don't need to worry about balance as much, I'd suggest thinking about gestalting her to make her other side a full Psion or Wilder, which, because, yknow, full caster, would make her absolutely terrifying, and lore appropriate to her being equally a peerless fighter and dang near a psychic goddess. And, if you think it's necessary to make her less MAD, feel free to GM fiat tweak the casting stat of any one of the classes in question, either to kick PsiWar off Wis or Wilder/Psion off Cha/Int (Contemplative Wilder to get onto Wis is a thing and is a very strong archetype, but it do be losing Wild Surge and the flavor doesn't super fit). You could also tweak the max number of Thralls available to NPCs, which normally caps at 2, to something a bit more fitting the Zerg, if you so desired.

----------


## Crake

> You could also tweak the max number of Thralls available to NPCs, which normally caps at 2, to something a bit more fitting the Zerg, if you so desired.


Well, i mean, each of those thralls would then have 2 more thralls, which would have 2 more thralls, which would have 2 more thralls, all the way down until they're no longer able to take thrallherd 10, at which point each one can still  have 1 thrall, and then you add all the believers each thrall has together as well, for a frankly rather absurd army.

If we're going down the route of making her an NPC, I would probably go full psion/wilder gestalted with some kind race/template combo. Dragonkin from the draconomicon is probably a good starting point, monstrous humanoid HD, giving her wings and claws, refluff the wings as being bone wings and make the flight supernatural, up the speed to 30 with the quick trait, gives her some good stat adjustments to boot. Add on phrenic to give her some innate psi-like abilities, make her officially a (psionic) creature, as well as some nice chonky power/spell resistance befitting an enemy of her stature. Advance her racial HD to match her class HD at that point, so she has full d8 HD, with full bab and good reflex/will saves, and at that point you can probably call it a day.

----------


## AnonymousPepper

> Well, i mean, each of those thralls would then have 2 more thralls, which would have 2 more thralls, which would have 2 more thralls, all the way down until they're no longer able to take thrallherd 10, at which point each one can still  have 1 thrall, and then you add all the believers each thrall has together as well, for a frankly rather absurd army.
> 
> If we're going down the route of making her an NPC, I would probably go full psion/wilder gestalted with some kind race/template combo. Dragonkin from the draconomicon is probably a good starting point, monstrous humanoid HD, giving her wings and claws, refluff the wings as being bone wings and make the flight supernatural, up the speed to 30 with the quick trait, gives her some good stat adjustments to boot. Add on phrenic to give her some innate psi-like abilities, make her officially a (psionic) creature, as well as some nice chonky power/spell resistance befitting an enemy of her stature. Advance her racial HD to match her class HD at that point, so she has full d8 HD, with full bab and good reflex/will saves, and at that point you can probably call it a day.


While two each does scale forever, it requires each and every Thrallherd to be Thrallherd 10 just to have two big controlling creatures under it forever, which seems... off. It would mean that all but the absolute bottom tier of controlling creatures would need to be Level 15, which doesn't fit; gaining a thrall every odd class level would lower the forking requirement to 8. I feel like a Zerg-specific Thrallherd that gets, like, one every two levels would fit much better.

Iono about the race+template thing. It works, but it feels... idk, less elegant, somehow. I like it, don't get me wrong, there's just something about it that throws me off. It's also, imo, not as simple as just "Here's a class gestalt, and because I'm the GM creating my setting's own apex predator, I'm adding a small list of reasonable extra abilities and stats to her: x, y, z...", which is how most humanoid bosses with class levels work iirc. Maybe it's just a personal preference thing, I never really liked mucking around with racial levels. You did, however, make a solid list of things she'd want, I can't fault that at all.


In any case, I think the general thrust of how to make it happen is pretty clear.

----------


## Lorddenorstrus

> While two each does scale forever, it requires each and every Thrallherd to be Thrallherd 10 just to have two big controlling creatures under it forever, which seems... off. It would mean that all but the absolute bottom tier of controlling creatures would need to be Level 15, which doesn't fit; gaining a thrall every odd class level would lower the forking requirement to 8. I feel like a Zerg-specific Thrallherd that gets, like, one every two levels would fit much better.
> 
> Iono about the race+template thing. It works, but it feels... idk, less elegant, somehow. I like it, don't get me wrong, there's just something about it that throws me off. It's also, imo, not as simple as just "Here's a class gestalt, and because I'm the GM creating my setting's own apex predator, I'm adding a small list of reasonable extra abilities and stats to her: x, y, z...", which is how most humanoid bosses with class levels work iirc. Maybe it's just a personal preference thing, I never really liked mucking around with racial levels. You did, however, make a solid list of things she'd want, I can't fault that at all.
> 
> 
> In any case, I think the general thrust of how to make it happen is pretty clear.


Yeah using Thrallherd into Thrallherd puts severe design limitations on my plan for her as a boss.  I can just DM handwave that the NPCs obey another NPC and explain it as being Hivemind psionic etc stuff.   I am not a huge "homebrew it" fan considering the amount of material 3.5/PF has available but explaining why a bunch of stuff follows or obeys something else... seems within reason something a DM can get away with *shrug* I mean we say all the time Bandit Leader and the followers etc crap like that.  Nobody really asks for indepth explanations of why the guy had followers and you don't have to slap leadership on him he was just a bandit leader <_<.....  
If possible I would like her.. "Boss" design to be as within the rules as much as I can be so that the players will understand what they're being attacked with or how to defend or dispel her buffs etc what not.   I think that makes a considerable amount of room for boss design space.  Besides ideally they won't have to face/fight her for quite awhile so I have time to work on and make sure the design is done correctly.  I've got a pretty good idea of some stuff i can use to keep them preoccupied while I design this.


The power isn't supposed to be just from the legions she commands but individually be a power house that is terrifying to cross.   For that, I have taken the dive and started reading some of the psionic books.  I am not finished, this will take me awhile to read/learn/remember.  My only major confusion is how my old GM ****ed up understanding Psionics so much, as far as I can tell most Psionics are literally just "Not magic TM pending"   Save DCs etc scale as if they were magic.  10, Stat, Power level = 10 Stat Spell level.   He always explained it as "if you aren't Psionic you can't defend against Psionincs so they're brokenly OP and I refuse to allow them."


I'm not seeing anything like that so far, if anything I'm actually interested in the fluidity of Power points to spend vs Vancian casting.  It seems like a good way to emulate the concept of Mana on casters because frankly I hugely against vancian casting it's kinda boring and 20+ years later I think the concept of "Mana" for spellcasters has just become more and more popular albeit not yet for TTRPGs.  But that's a point for another time I suppose...

Edited for more thoughts

----------


## AnonymousPepper

If you dislike Vancian casting as a whole especially compared to psionics, I'd suggest looking at 3rd ed's variant spell point rule system (which shoooould be 100% compatible with PF?).

----------


## Crake

> He always explained it as "if you aren't Psionic you can't defend against Psionincs so they're brokenly OP and I refuse to allow them."


This is a variant rule. By default, magic and psionics are fairly interactive, spell/power resistance are the same thing, dispel magic/psionics are the same etc. The variant makes them different, so power resistance only affects psionics, and not magic, and vice versa with spell resistance, same goes for dispel magic and so on.

So your DM just misunderstood the rules it sounds like.

Regarding class vs monster gestalt, I personally dont see much difference between gestalting a bunch of racial HD and some templates, vs class levels, if anything geatalting racial HD is the more reasonable approach, instead of say, a tonne of fighter levels, giving her more hp from d10, good fort in place of good reflex, and just a tonne of bonus feats.

But racial abilities make more sense for her imo, as does natural armor over manufactured.

----------


## SangoProduction

Unsurprisingly, I would use Spheres (most of the time).
Exactly what build and, in particular, what level, would depend upon what exactly you are calling upon as your QoB.
If you intend to go with the end-of-trilogy "literal god, which beats back the galactic threat"... well, she'd obviously probably be a pretty potent divine rank.
Even if it's just the "I control many, many, many planets (planes) of creatures, who are unwaveringly and suicidality loyal to me," still either divine ranks, or severely Epic level. At which point, the particular build hardly matters.
With the "I control 200 units at once," well, that's still going to tend towards either an epic level, or some severe min-maxing. 
But for that, I would go with some sort of Death sphere specialist, and reflavor my "undead" as insects. Taking Greater Reanimate 3 times lets you reanimate 5x your HD of units, which allows you to have 200 1-HD units by level 40...before any other shenanigans.

If your QoB is just the directly playable Co-op / story mode character, then that's something else all together, and pretty easily doable in reasonable levels. (Though it's bed time, and I don't remember off the top of my head what she does in particular.)
And the pre-infestation version of her as a stealth sniper with psionics... somewhat trivial.

For a faithful recreation, you probably want some way to control things that can create/control other things. Like a Thrallherd, as already mentioned. But that was already mentioned.

-
-

So, in summary: If I wanted to put some sort of boss creature based on the QoB, I would probably just refluff undead as the zerg, and play it from there. Maybe give them vulnerability to fire rather than healing magic.

----------


## Lorddenorstrus

> Unsurprisingly, I would use Spheres (most of the time).
> Exactly what build and, in particular, what level, would depend upon what exactly you are calling upon as your QoB.
> If you intend to go with the end-of-trilogy "literal god, which beats back the galactic threat"... well, she'd obviously probably be a pretty potent divine rank.
> Even if it's just the "I control many, many, many planets (planes) of creatures, who are unwaveringly and suicidality loyal to me," still either divine ranks, or severely Epic level. At which point, the particular build hardly matters.
> With the "I control 200 units at once," well, that's still going to tend towards either an epic level, or some severe min-maxing. 
> But for that, I would go with some sort of Death sphere specialist, and reflavor my "undead" as insects. Taking Greater Reanimate 3 times lets you reanimate 5x your HD of units, which allows you to have 200 1-HD units by level 40...before any other shenanigans.
> 
> If your QoB is just the directly playable Co-op / story mode character, then that's something else all together, and pretty easily doable in reasonable levels. (Though it's bed time, and I don't remember off the top of my head what she does in particular.)
> And the pre-infestation version of her as a stealth sniper with psionics... somewhat trivial.
> ...


I've never read Spheres of Power, it's not one of the PF books I've gotten to reading yet.  There's.. a lot of material when allowing usage of 3.5/PF together within reason and what I allow.

I'm still reading Psionics atm trying to get that down into my brain because I never have fully read those but I suppose I can try adding that to the reading list after.   I have some time before they face this character so it's time to be creative and make sure i get the design right.

----------


## Ramza00

Dreamscarred Press Psionics.

Just go Wilder into Thrallherd.  Dreamscarred Prestige Classes advance Wild Surge.  Furthermore the Lurker has a 5 level FCB that advances your WS by 1 for ever 5 levels.  Aasimar or Tiefllomg can grab this Lurker while keeping Human Heritage since you were psionically reborned.  Wild Surge Items is another +3 levels, the Overchannel feat can stack with the Biokinetic Feedback feat

The only downside is the limited powers known but there are ways to grab more powers via items, psychic reformation, Harmonic Resonance feat, etc.  Furthermore the non Dreamscarred Rajah Veil the Telepath gives you Telepathy and the Collective features like the Vitalist, and Narcissism feat allows you to grab that Telepath Rajah Veil.  Furthermore while Harmonic Resonance is awesome remember to grab only battle relevant powers for non battle relevant powers you can manifest from your allies though it takes 1 round of actions plus extra manifesting time thus it is better for buffs outside the combat.

The Final Result is +3 Wild Surge from Items, +1 from FCB, +3 from Overchannel, and 18 out of 20 levels of Wilder or Wilder PRCs.  

=====

So Aasimar and Tiefling have options to trade our their spell like ability for a veil off a specific list and 1 bonus essence.

The 1st level psionic power.  Essence Infusion gives you 1 free temporary essence and boosts your essence receptacles max limit by 1.  More augmentation gives you more free temporary essences.

There are items that boost essence receptacles even further.

Akashic Augmentation feat allows you to invest essence into this feat as a receptacle and reduce the cost to augment powers equal to the essence.

=====

Point three  I am highlighting how good Psychic Reformation is at HD 8ish with Akashic Augmentation and Wild Surge.  If you can hit 13pp which is easy with wild surge and that feat you can rebuild yourself in 10 mins with no downsides besides time and 7 pp.

=====

Point 4 is the 1st level power empathetic connection aka psionic charm person.  It gets better the more you augment it and the telepath veil gives it you for free once an hour and the duration is your hd plus your essence invested in the veil and thus you can have several group of friends who you can give suicidal orders via a charisma check which a wilder is built for.  Lastly the fourth awesome thing the telepath veil gives is +1 ml to all telepathy powers.

=====

As you can see all of these things are extremely synergistic.

----------


## Mechalich

Well, the D&D version of the Zerg is basically just Formians. Kerrigan, in her role as Queen of Blades, is basically just a Formian queen (who are basically just Zerg cerebrates), with a uniquely mobile and deadly body. 

I'd represent Kerrigan, Queen of Blades, as a being with the full magical capabilities of a Formian Queen (that's a 17th level sorcerer plus a decent suite of SLAs, which ought to be more than enough for anyone) but her physical stats and attacks swapped out for something more deadly - a Marilith is a decent model, just use the 6 sword attacks as 'wing attacks' and the slam as her claw attack.

----------


## SangoProduction

> Well, the D&D version of the Zerg is basically just Formians. Kerrigan, in her role as Queen of Blades, is basically just a Formian queen (who are basically just Zerg cerebrates), with a uniquely mobile and deadly body. 
> 
> I'd represent Kerrigan, Queen of Blades, as a being with the full magical capabilities of a Formian Queen (that's a 17th level sorcerer plus a decent suite of SLAs, which ought to be more than enough for anyone) but her physical stats and attacks swapped out for something more deadly - a Marilith is a decent model, just use the 6 sword attacks as 'wing attacks' and the slam as her claw attack.


Have to say, I entirely agree with this. At least on every practical level, because there's no way the players are *actually* going to slog through entire planets of zerg. Not in a table top rpg.
Plus... it's simple, and requires minimal customization.

----------


## Mechalich

> Have to say, I entirely agree with this. At least on every practical level, because there's no way the players are *actually* going to slog through entire planets of zerg. Not in a table top rpg.
> Plus... it's simple, and requires minimal customization.


The best part is that a Formian Queen _just has_ telepathic control over all Formians within 50 miles through their Hive Mind (Ex) ability (and honestly, if you want to extend this to 'the entire multiverse' it barely even matters). How this works isn't properly explained, but neither is the Zerg hive mind, so no problem.

Also, basically any even vaguely arthropod-like monster can easily be converted into a Formian (Zerg) - keep the physical abilities and SAs, replace the SQs with the standard set that Formians get (which are a pretty good match for Zerg fluff already), change type to Outsider, and that's basically it. The existing Worker (Drone), Warrior (Zergling), and Taskmaster (Hydralisk, just change the sting to ranged and dump the mind control) already cover the most important unit types, and the Myrmarch is a solid basis for a utility unit like a Queen.

----------


## Tzardok

Or change the creature type to something else. Aberration fits for zerg.

----------


## icefractal

This may be too high-op depending on your players, but for the heck of it I gave a try at a high-power Kerrigan using just Psionics.  My assumptions:
1) Kerrigan didn't originate the Zerg, she took control of the Zerg.  Therefore she doesn't need a way to create an army from scratch, merely the ability to control one, which mental stats, especially Cha, and telepathy powers provide.
2) As leader of an interplanetary empire, she has considerable resources in terms of gear and personnel.   

So, the build - Wilder 20.  You could drop a level for Cha-to-AC, or two for Cha-to-saves, and still keep full ML via the trait, only losing a single power known, and Perfect Surge is only good for the initial daily buffs.  However, with self-buffing, saves and AC will already be quite high.

Wilder is a lot better in PF than in 3.5!  Not only is the surge chance less, but there are versions that don't lose your action (Student's Surge gives _dazzled_, lol), and most importantly - Warrior's Surge, which doesn't drain PP.  It drains HP, which if you have fast healing and a lot of HP means very little.  

Equally important, Psychic Reformation doesn't cost XP, only PP and temporary penalties, and the penalties can be removed with an augment.  This makes the Wilder's small number of powers known a lot less of an impediment once you have large amounts of PP to throw around.  Also there's Psychic Chirurgery (used here to get True Mind Switch and True Metamorphosis), but that has a limited capacity per person.

Zerg-ification: represented here by True Mind Switch.  There are lots of possibilities; I picked a Jabberwocky.  You get good defenses, great stats, and six natural attacks which can be skinned as her six claws.  But it's Huge and not humanoid?  No problem, that's what Metamorphosis is for, via buff and/or psychoactive skin.  

Key Item: Implanted Khaydarin Crystal - custom item combining a Surge Crystal +3, Orange Ioun Stone, and Robes of the Summit.  You could fully gear her out besides this, but buffs cover most of the territory.

So, ML = 31 (20 base + 9 surge + 2 items).  
That's a Metaconcert with 16 participants (psionic Zerg, can be set up precisely with Psychic Reformation), which has a CL of 38.  For the first Metaconcert of the day, we can use Perfect Surge for a total CL 40.
This could be boosted more for non-combat usage, but it's probably plenty.

In addition to everything that Incarnate can make permanent - 
Long Buffs (40 hours): Adapt Body, Barred Mind, Dispelling Buffer, Greater Precognition, Inertial Armor, Metaphysical Claw, Resist Death, Resist Toxin, Share Pain (have a health sponge Ultralisk kept somewhere safe), Sustained Flight
Medium Buffs (6 hours): Battle Transformation, Chameleon, Detect Hostile, Duodimensional Claw, Empathic Feedback, Energy Conversion, Inertial Barrier, Slip the Bonds, Steadfast Perception, Thicken Skin, True Metamorphosis
None of those count against your PP or powers known, they're manifested by a Metaconcert with your minions.  

Short Buffs (31 minutes) do count, so you probably don't want too many.  Two I'd pick are Defensive Precognition (insight bonus to AC and all saves) and Psychofeedback (if you pay for all the augments or heal the stat damage, it's +ML to Str or Dex with no downside).  Oak Body is also nice when you want immunities.

The result?  A physical monster (considerably stronger than the Tarrasque) who's also a full manifester with very powerful Telepathy.  Not suitable if your PCs are being challenged by published Paizo material, but might be about right if they're optimizing significantly.

----------

