# Forum > Gaming > Homebrew Design > Contest D&D Subclass Contest Chat Thread 2: Joke Entries Win with Alarming Frequency

## MoleMage

This is the chat and feedback thread for the D&D 5e Subclass Contests.

Current Contest:  Contest XXXI: Something Borrowed III
Current Voting Thread: 

Another Useful Link: nickl_2000's Subclass Creation Guide and Analysis

*Spoiler: Previous Contests*
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Contest I: It's Technical won by Ivellius's Circle of Progress
Contest II: It Came From Beyond! won by Ninja_Prawn's Mirrorkin Sorcerous Origin
Contest III: So You Don't Have To won by Icecaster's Circle of the Conclave
Contest IV: I Read This in a Book, Once won by nickl_2000's Pinball Wizard
Contest V: Five Stars won by Evil the Cat's Circle of Stars
Contest VI: Bunch of Fives won by nickl_2000's College of the Luchador
Contest VII: Well, That's Fortunate won in a tie between Man_Over_Game's Fate Sorcery and Oubliette's Way of the Chance Dancer
Contest VIII: Something Borrowed won by Fnissalot's Relic Grifter
Contest IX: Follow Me! won by BerzerkerUnit's Tacticon Rogue
Contest X: Calling Card won by RickAsWritten's Bladecloak Rogue
Contest XI: Points For Everybody! won by RickAsWritten's Irradiated Fighter
Contest XII: It's Mind! won by RickAsWritten's Nilbog Patron
Contest XIII: Hold My Ale won by nickl_2000's Tavern Wench Rogue
Contest XIV: Make a Choice won by Damon_Tor's Vestige Patron
Contest XV: The Pen is Mightier than the Sword won by nickl_2000's Way of the Shrine Guardian
Contest XVI: It Came from Beyond II won by nickl_2000's Madness Domain
Contest XVII: The Band won by RickAsWritten's School of the Avantguardian
Contest XVIII: Five Stars II won by nickl_2000's Chef Fighter
Contest XIX: Something Borrowed II won by Crim the Cold's Moonlighter Rogue
Context XX: Subsystems Online won by Damon_Tor's Way of the Stone Foot Monk
Contest XXI: I Read this in a Book Once II won by nickl_2000 with the Battling Bowman
Contest XXII: Follow Me! II won by Damon_Tor with the Deathtouched Sorcerer
Contest XXIII: Bunch of Fives II won by Edea with the Path of the Dragon Queen Barbarian
Contest XXIV: Bigger is Better won by mr_stibbons with the Thug
Contest XXV: Hold the Line won by nickl_200 with the Ley Line Sorcerer.
Contest XXVI: Warriors of Old won by Ilerien with the College of Laments
Contest XXVII: So You Don't Have To won by BerzerkerUnit with the Way of the Zerth'Arai.
Contest XXVIII: Well, That's Fortunate won by Ilerien with the Serendipity Domain
Contest XXX: I Read This in a Book Once III won by Oerlaf with the Portrait Patron



*Spoiler: Previous Chat Threads*
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Chat Thread 1: Contests I - XIX
Chat Thread 2: Contests XIX - ??? (Current Thread)



*Spoiler: Class Representation*
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Rankings are based on number of submissions first, then number of contests.
Up to date as of Contest XXVIII
Class
Total Number of Submissions
Number of Contests
Rank

Artificer
9
9
13th

Barbarian
35
21
2nd

Bard
26
19
5th

Cleric
17
14
10th

Druid
15
15
12th

Fighter
34
19
3rd

Monk
37
25
1st

Paladin
16
12
11th

Ranger
19
11
8th

Rogue
29
18
4th

Sorcerer
19
15
9th

Warlock
22
16
7th

Wizard
24
17
6th

Other/Homebrew
8
8
Unranked





*Spoiler: Current Theme Pool*
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Themes re-enter the pool after not being used for 9 contests (approximately one year).

Bigger is Better
Bunch of Fives
Calling Card
Five Stars
Follow Me!
From Zero to Hero
Help the Unpopular
Hold my Ale
Hold the Line
I Read this in a Book, Once
It Came From Beyond
It is Written
It's Mind!
It's Technical
Keep it Simple
Make a Choice
My Way is Different
Points for Everybody
Refine Mayhem
Scaling Strangely
So You Don't Have To
Something Borrowed
Subsystems Online
The Band
The Pen is Mightier than the Sword
Warriors of Old
Well, that's Fortunate
This Season On
Foods and Foodies
I'm Only Joking



*Spoiler: The Rules*
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The class must fit the theme of the contest.Your class must be posted in the contest thread. If you wish, you can use external formatting, such as Google Docs or Homebrewery, though I recommend sharing it as a PDF to ensure that it works on most computers.You may only create one subclass, which must follow the normal progression for the class it belongs to. Please specify what class it is for. You can use any base class published in official material (including the Unearthed Arcana posts), or any existing homebrew class (don't make a whole base class just for your submission). If you are going to use a homebrew base class, make sure you get permission from its original creator and post a link so we know where to find it! Failure to get permission will be grounds for disqualification.Until the contest is finished, do not post your subclass anywhere else. If you are found to have done so, that subclass will be disqualified (though you will be allowed to post a new one if you wish, within reason).Your subclass must be complete by the deadline. After that, I will put up a voting thread. Any submissions or edits after that point will be considered invalid. A two week extension is implemented if at least three requests are made in the chat thread.Have fun, be respectful.

Tiebreakers, in order:
The entrant who voted during the voting period wins ties against the entrant who did not vote.The entrant who claimed a greater number of 1st-place votes wins ties against the entrant who claimed fewer.Any tie unresolved after these two rules stands, with both entrants winning.

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## MoleMage

At some point I'm going to hit the character limit in post 1, especially with all the formatting woes. So I'm reserving this post to edit some of it down a post just in case.

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## nickl_2000

Woo!  We made it to #2 thread.

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## Twelvetrees

More review.

*Spoiler: Barbarian - Path of Panic*
Show

*Panicked Attack*
I can see Disengage working with a barbarian that relies quite a bit on skirmishing tactics, but the Hide action seems like it will be hard to take advantage of. You need to be in melee to use Reckless, so you'll likely be taking an opportunity attack (that the creature will have advantage on) if you move somewhere else to hide.

*I'm No Warrior*
While it doesn't force a character to choose Stealth as the skill, typical barbarian ability score allocations and Panicked Attack will certainly push Path of Panic barbarians in that direction. Acrobatics will also be an attractive choice.

It's some nice skill utility for a class that doesn't usually have much flexibility in that area, which I like.

*OUCH!!!*
This feels a little odd when compared to the cowardly theme you've got going for this subclass because you have to consciously choose to lean into the blow to utilize this ability. I see no issues with the balance of it and I can see the relationship with Uncanny Dodge, but it doesn't fit quite as well as the other features.

*Cowards Sense*
Danger Sense works well with Dexterity saves because there is clear physical danger for those saves. It's harder to tell with other saves, which makes the effects of this ability slightly unclear. Does it work against poison? How about something like a Nagpa's Paralysis or a Jackalwere's Sleep Gaze? I'd have difficulty as a player or DM figuring out the right call for some effects.

*Blind Panic*
This fits well with the idea of someone who is panicking, but being blinded during it makes this a pain to use. You are reduced to normal attack rolls with Reckless and I'm not sure the bonus damage makes up for it. This also feels like a more convoluted way of giving the benefits of Great Weapon Master.

It's cool, but I think something that mechanically conveyed losing control of oneself might fit better. Losing the pun would be a loss, admittedly. Throwing some ideas out there: attacking adjacent creatures at random, moving in a random direction each turn, becoming frightened and causing contagious fright to nearby creatures.


I will mention that I forgot this subclass was supposed to be borrowing from another class partway through my review. I'm not sure whether to attribute that to seamless integration of rogue features or to advise that you make the inspiration more clear.


MoleMage, a heads up - the current contest thread still links to the old chat in its first post.

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## MoleMage

> MoleMage, a heads up - the current contest thread still links to the old chat in its first post.


Fixed it. Thanks for the heads up.

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## CountDVB

Well, this is really nice how far we've come. 

Also, tweaked a bit on some of the stuff.

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## Old Harry MTX

Mmm, but why don't just make a dedicated topic for each contest like we already do for the base class contests?

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## Crim the Cold

Replying to subscribe to new thread.

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## Twelvetrees

Continuing to review.

*Spoiler: Primal Path: The Path of Steel*
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*Trusted Steel*
Wearing heavy armour means that Path of Steel barbarians won't rely as much on having high Dexterity as other barbarians because they won't be adding it to their AC. That's nice because it frees up some choice to choose which abilities to focus on. Being unable to use Fast Movement hurts, however.

_Fighting Style_
This almost feels like a non-feature. Barbarians want to rage. Incentivizing them not to do so feels counterproductive. Would you consider something similar to the Berserker's Frenzy feature and only allow them to use the chosen Fighting Style while raging a certain number of times per day?

*Strong Flesh*
Woo! Fast Movement is back, one level late.

This is strong, which is odd for a 6th level barbarian feature, but after the 3rd level features, that appears to be needed. A straightforward port of Second Wind. Enhancing a barbarian's tankiness through healing is a new avenue for a barbarian subclass and is absolutely one I'm a fan of.

*Steel Will*
One free reroll of a saving throw per turn. That's powerful, especially for a barbarian.

I'm not a fan of being punished for failing a saving throw again. Failing a save twice in a row and then being forced out of rage on top of whatever nasty effect you failed to save against is no fun. Especially when you can't rage again for a minute. Sure, you could succeed on the second save and keep your rage as well, but having extremely binary results based on the result of the rerolled save makes it hard to tell the balance of this feature.

Preventing a barbarian from doing their primary schtick does not make this feel fun.

*The Riddle of Steel*
Waiting 14 levels to be able to use Fighting Styles while raging hardly feels worth it, especially when it is so easy to multiclass one level into fighter.

Ditto for the equivalent of Action Surge once per long rest. A minor rider on top of it does not make up for being able to take a second level of fighter and have access to Action Surge once per short or long rest.

The Riddle of Steel feels lackluster in comparison to the other abilities that this subclass gives. I'm disappointed by that because the fluff of this subclass had led up to it being something cool. I think I was expecting something more along the lines of being able to attack three times with Extra Attack and to have access to Action Surge on top of that.

If I compare this with the Berseker's Retaliation for example, it's pretty clear what the better feature is.




I want to like this subclass, but I'm having difficulty doing so because of how it's features clash with enabling barbarians to rage and my issues with its capstone.  :Small Frown:

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## RickAsWritten

> More review.
> 
> *Spoiler: Barbarian - Path of Panic*
> Show
> 
> *Panicked Attack*
> I can see Disengage working with a barbarian that relies quite a bit on skirmishing tactics, but the Hide action seems like it will be hard to take advantage of. You need to be in melee to use Reckless, so you'll likely be taking an opportunity attack (that the creature will have advantage on) if you move somewhere else to hide.
> 
> _Barbarians get speed boosts and care less about opportunity attacks than other classes because of Rage.  In addition, reach weapons or Mobile completely negate that concern.  Hide is there mostly for thematics, but it has niche use. _ 
> ...


_See italics_

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## Twelvetrees

I don't know how you've managed to fit so many reviews in one day before, nickl_2000. It's seriously impressive.  :Small Smile: 

My current pace has me at only my second review of the day, but here's a review of your subclass.

*Spoiler: Fighter: Crusader*
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*Spellcasting*
_Cantrips_
This text mentions that you know two cantrips and learn another at 10th level, while the table has you gaining another one at 7th level. Wait.

Does the 7th level feature grant one?

Ah.

See my first comment on Divine Guidance below. It's confusing to gain another cantrip partway through the progression. I understand it now, but I was confused after just looking at this feature and the table.

_Spells Prepared of 1st-Level and Higher_
This is a significant departure from other one-third casters. Spells prepared instead of spells known and no limitation besides using the cleric list instead of a fraction of the wizard list has alarm bells going off in my head. _Ritual Casting_ and a holy symbol for _Spellcasting Focus_ increases the volume.

Low level cleric spells can be incredibly potent, especially when combined with a class that naturally gets proficiency in Constitution saving throws. They also have good options for spells that can be cast as a bonus action, which fighters can make good use of. _Healing word_, _sanctuary_, _shield of faith_, and _spiritual weapon_ are all bonus action spells that I'd be immediately looking at for this sort of character.

In addition, there are a few cleric spells that can lead to some nasty combinations when used in conjunction with Action Surge. _Hold person_ springs to mind, as does _silence_ + grappling on a spellcaster. These combinations can be pulled off with a couple of characters normally, but having both options exist for one character means there's no trouble with timing everything properly.


I'm of the opinion that there ought to be a limiting factor on spellcasting. It feels too strong right now.

*Divine Weapon*
Ha, I enjoy the minor effect that occurs if someone else attempts to hold the weapon.  :Small Big Grin: 

I have a distinct sense that this feature is sticking its tongue out at Weapon Bond and making fun of it. Am I missing something, or is this just Weapon Bond+?

*Divine Guidance*
Is this the level seven feature? It doesn't say.

This is another strong feature, which feels like a bit much after the spellcasting section. And it encourages _guidance_ spam. I won't deny the mechanical benefits of spamming _guidance_, but I personally find it annoying. Is there another cantrip this could be switched out with, like _spare the dying_?

I can certainly still see cleric traits shining through in this feature.

*Shared Healing*
I'm a fan of this. No problems with the balance or flavor.

*Divine Connection*
The second part of the feature is a cool extra.

I've got no issues with the first part, it does a nice job of making it hard for enemies to escape the fighter. It did remind me that this subclass enables a fighter with _spiritual guardians_, which is terrifying.

*Healing Boost*
My first reaction was thinking this feature was strong, but I'm no longer so sure.. You've still only got 11 spells per day and an additional +1 attack and damage is not a lot either, even for someone with a lot of attacks. I like this capstone. It's got pieces of the Life Domain's Blessed Healer and Divine Strike mixed together.

*Notes*
I can't say I noticed this aura piece until you called it out here.

The rest of these comments make sense, but I'd still like to see spellcasting toned down in some fashion.

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## Lvl45DM!

> Continuing to review.
> 
> *Spoiler: Primal Path: The Path of Steel*
> Show
> 
> *Trusted Steel*
> Wearing heavy armour means that Path of Steel barbarians won't rely as much on having high Dexterity as other barbarians because they won't be adding it to their AC. That's nice because it frees up some choice to choose which abilities to focus on. Being unable to use Fast Movement hurts, however.
> 
> _Fighting Style_
> ...


This is good feedback. I guess Im too focused on the subclass by itself rather than gelling with barbarian. And I feel like I gimped myself by mixing the theme of a multiclass with what i really wanted to do, which was just the Conan movie. 

Ok So i changed it so that you get your fighting style in Rage but raging while wearing heavy armour gives you exhaustion. So you are better armed and armoured at all times, but raging is a little harder.

Ok I added a Con mod limit to the Indomitable knock-off. This solves the issue that the stupid level 20 feature gives. Rassle Frassle.

Ill take another run at the Riddle of Steel.

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## Lvl 2 Expert

Maybe given the title of this thread I should still make the entry I was doubting about since day one...

Not sure I can find the time though. I'm not requesting an extension unless I have something solid in the bag.

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## Twelvetrees

Another review!

*Spoiler: Moonlighter*
Show

The introduction to this subclass is succinct and funny.

*Moon Shape*
The third bullet point might be better worded if it was something along the lines of "you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to use Moon Shape."

I'm already imagining delightfully fun shenanigans with this feature. It's inventive. I'm having trouble figuring out the balance of it because it mostly enhances utility, but it seems fine at face value.

*Beasts' Cant*
This is delightful.

*Moon Shape Expertise*
Interesting. Your moon shape can now afford to take a hit.

I'm hesitant about this, but I think between the ability to automatically cause an attack to miss and the ability to hide in an opponents space, Moon Shape Expertise might be a little strong. Compared to other rogue subclass abilities at the same level, it offers a bit too much. My suggestion would be to cut one of the last two bullet points.

*Multi-Morph*
More utility, more awesomeness, more inability on my part to figure out the balance of a feature. Nothing jumps out about it to me as broken, so I think it's fine.

*Moon Swarm*
Well that's fun.

The boost to survivability in combination with the bonus hit points from Moon Shape Expertise makes me think this might be a bit too strong. It's right on the edge of balanced <-> too strong.

*Bonus Content*
Okay, that's just icing on the cake.  :Small Smile: 



And avoiding the double-post by editing another review into this post.

*Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Ultimate Magus*
Show

I appreciate the time you took to craft the introduction to this subclass. I'm interested to see how well the features convey what you describe.

*Soulbook*
I'm reminded of the wizard in more ways that one. Spellbook? Check. Overpowered feature? Also check.

This feature more than doubles the number of spells a sorcerer has access to in a given day. Oh, and gives access to a better spell list.

Between the spells normally known by sorcerers and the bonus spells this feature allows you to prepare, you have access to more spells in a given day than a wizard. This needs to be toned down.

*Ultimate Savant*
Wait, you get expertise in Arcana and Investigation on top of everything else you already got at 1st level? I think this could easily be switched to just Arcana.

I do like the ability to use a sorcerer spell as a ritual.

*Magus's Recovery*
What. I was all prepared to move on to the 6th level feature. _But this is also gained at 1st level!_ Hmm. Can one of these features just be cut? There's too much going on right now.

*Ultimate Lucubration*
Automatic Subtle Spell on over half the spells you have access to in a given day. Also strong. This could be limited to a certain number of times per day or once between rests. I think that would make it more reasonable.

*Magus's Intuition*
This is one 6th level feature too many, in my opinion. Especially with how strong Ultimate Lucubration is in its current state. I'd advise choosing between one of these features for the 6th level feature.

*Ultimate Metamage*
Heightened and Twinned are the only metamagic effects that don't have their costs reduced to 0 with this feature. I don't even know what to suggest here.

No? Please don't?

*Mantle of the Archmagus*
Am I missing something or is this just Spell Mastery, but better?



I really like the Ultimate Magus as a concept. With some toning back, I think this could work quite well.

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## MoleMage

> Mmm, but why don't just make a dedicated topic for each contest like we already do for the base class contests?


I modeled this one off the old 3.5 contests, which had continuous chat threads. I guess I could swap it to the other format (which was used by Requilac when he first started the 5e Base Class Contests or at least the current iteration, and which I kept by request of most of the other users over there).

I kinda like the continuous format, personally. Discussions carry over from one contest to the next sometimes, and people only have to subscribe to it once. But if there seems to be general consensus for per-contest I can flip it for the next one.

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## Twelvetrees

This was a long one.

*Spoiler: Monastic Tradition: Way of the Chameleon*
Show

From the introduction, I'm expecting abilities that allow a Way of the Chameleon monk to imitate others and to disguise themselves.

*Bonus Proficiency*
Being able to get any proficiency if you already have Deception is rather good, but it fits with the idea of this subclass.

*Aptitude Focus*
Why at any time during a long rest? Most long rest associated abilties happen at the end of one - what led to this design decision?

This feature disabling Ki, half of Deflect Missiles, Stunning Strike, half of Diamond Soul, and Empty Body leads me to think these aptitudes are going to be strong. In addition, I'm wondering if you'll really still feel like a monk while focusing on one of these aptitudes.

This line



> When you activate a specific focus, choose one skill.


would be better phrased as "When you activate a specific focus, choose one _associated_ skill."

I really like everything you've included to account for multiclassing and magic item use. That's helpful to have.

*Floating Talent*
Getting an equal number of feats as a fighter can have and being able to switch one/two out on a long rest gives you an awful lot of versatility.

The way feats are worded also has some odd interactions with this feature. Tough, for example, increases your hit point maximum when you gain it. A RAW reading would seem to indicate that each time you selected Tough, your hit point maximum would continue to increase. I doubt this was your intention. I think it would help to have a line somehere in here about losing whatever benefits you gained from feats when you switch them out.

*Double Aptitude*
This feels like it has the potential to be extremely strong, but I haven't gotten to the Foci yet.

*Rapid Refocus*
More versatility, but doesn't appear unbalanced.

*Foci*

*Common Features*
Martial Synergy is better than a Kensai's Kensai Weapons feature. Making a note of that.

Armor proficiency conflicts with Unarmored Movement, as a note.

*Amok Focus*
Adding your martial arts die to damage rolls is better than the barbarian's bonus damage from Rage.

You likely won't be able to make Strength-based attacks that well, but if you built a character with that in mind, I feel like you could make a better barbarian using this chassis than if you made an actual barbarian.

*Arcane Focus*
I'm guessing this will play like a different flavor of Eldritch Knight, but with access to more spells. My first instinct was that it wasn't very good, but I suspect there are some tricks that could be pulled with this.

*Divine Focus*
Reminds me of the paladin.

*Eldritch Focus*
_Mystic Arcanum_
This pushes the bounds of what a non-spellcasting class can do. In addition, you have enough ki points at this level to spam these spells. If you get a couple of short rests in a day, _you could cast more 7th level spells than a full caster._ I'd take a hard look at this and see if it is really needed.

*Handicraft Focus*
_Spellcasting_
It worries me that you can cast the same level of spells as a normal artificer.

*Heritage Focus*
Similar feeling to Arcane Focus.


Nothing sticks out to me about the rest of these. They allow you to use other class's features. What I'm interested in now is seeing what Double Aptitude allows.

I spent a half hour on this and didn't come up with anything particularily broken. That's a good sign.  :Small Smile: 



Adding another review.

*Spoiler: Way of the Punchimancer*
Show

*Spellcasting*
_Spells Known_
Make it clear that you must choose the other school that you will get to choose spells from when you enter this subclass. When I read this the first time, I was under the impression that you could choose additional spells from whatever school you wanted each time you got to choose spells.

_Spellcasting Ability_
Needing to use Intelligence hurts. Monks are already MAD and want good Dexterity, Wisdom, and Constitution. Needing good Intelligence as well only makes it worse. This will certainly push characters using this subclass to take spells that don't rely on Intelligence in any way.

*Punchimancy*
This is distinctly more powerful than an Eldritch Knight's *War Magic*. Especially once you get Stunning Strike, it means you can cast a spell and then still likely stun a foe or two.

Maybe you could allow a Punchimancer to make one unarmed strike for no ki points instead? Or switch the level at which you get access to this feature?

*Deflect Magic*
I would attach a ki point cost to this feature. It allows you to make your best saving throw and re-target a spell. When it comes up, that's quite good.

*Ki Magic*
Wow, this allows _shield_ or _invisibility_ to be cast quite a number of times. In combination with Patient Defense, you become nearly untouchable. But other than those two spells, this feature appear to be reasonable.

*Arcane Flurry*
Bonus damage is something the monk lacks, so I'm a fan of this ability.



Overall, I think my advice would be to use another school other than abjuration. Patient Defense and _shield_ pair a little too well together.

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## Ilerien

> This was a long one.


Thank you for the feedback! :)



> *Bonus Proficiency*
> Being able to get any proficiency if you already have Deception is rather good, but it fits with the idea of this subclass.


I have a feeling that including the clause "choose any other skill/tool if you have it already" for bonus proficiencies is sort of lowest common denominator for not letting a character lose one "proficiency slot". After all, if you have identical proficiency already, likely you've got it from a background, and with background rules as flexible as they are you could have chosen some other proficiency without any fuss.



> *Aptitude Focus*
> Why at any time during a long rest? Most long rest associated abilties happen at the end of one - what led to this design decision?


As I explained in response to *nickl_2000*'s review, it's an attempt to formalize "first you lose anything gained from your previous active focus, then you gain effects of your new active focus". Will make a fix shortly.



> *Floating Talent*
> Getting an equal number of feats as a fighter can have and being able to switch one/two out on a long rest gives you an awful lot of versatility.
> 
> The way feats are worded also has some odd interactions with this feature. Tough, for example, increases your hit point maximum when you gain it. A RAW reading would seem to indicate that each time you selected Tough, your hit point maximum would continue to increase. I doubt this was your intention. I think it would help to have a line somehere in here about losing whatever benefits you gained from feats when you switch them out.


This whole subclass is about versatility. :) You're correct, should specify losing any benefits of a switched out feat explicitly.



> *Double Aptitude*
> This feels like it has the potential to be extremely strong, but I haven't gotten to the Foci yet.


It is. A bit limited by the same ki pool, and I tried to assign ki cost to most activated features even when a feature in question is unlimited for the parent class.



> Martial Synergy is better than a Kensai's Kensai Weapons feature. Making a note of that.


It is, and that's sort of intentional. One should be able to wield a greatsword efficiently if one has to pose as a greatsword-based fighter, which Kensei doesn't have to.



> Armor proficiency conflicts with Unarmored Movement, as a note.


It's kind a problem indeed, and one I don't have an elegant solution for, so just decided to leave it as is.



> *Amok Focus*
> Adding your martial arts die to damage rolls is better than the barbarian's bonus damage from Rage.
> 
> You likely won't be able to make Strength-based attacks that well, but if you built a character with that in mind, I feel like you could make a better barbarian using this chassis than if you made an actual barbarian.


To invest highly into Strength is to cripple Dexterity or Wisdom, as is pointed out in the design notes. Besides, it's one less variable to keep track of, and an actual barbarian would have a subclass to boot. :)



> *Eldritch Focus*
> _Mystic Arcanum_
> This pushes the bounds of what a non-spellcasting class can do. In addition, you have enough ki points at this level to spam these spells. If you get a couple of short rests in a day, _you could cast more 7th level spells than a full caster._ I'd take a hard look at this and see if it is really needed.


This is a good point, actually. I'll stick with a 6th level spell and increase the ki point cost to cast it.



> *Handicraft Focus*
> _Spellcasting_
> It worries me that you can cast the same level of spells as a normal artificer.


I didn't want to make separate spell slot level progression because the subclass description is already extremely cumbersome, and artificer spell list is limited and doesn't contain any spells unique to the class. Though it might be indeed an issue like maybe with rangers and paladins.

Upd: implemented some tweaks based on your feedback.  :Small Smile:

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## Twelvetrees

> Upd: implemented some tweaks based on your feedback.


Glad to see them! I'll let you know if I stumble across any weird exploits that the Chameleon can accomplish while reviewing the rest of the entries.

Here's the next review.

*Spoiler: School of Adaptation*
Show

Acknowledging that wizards used to have access to metamagic in the introduction makes for a wonderful meta joke about changes across editions of the game.

*Metamagic Savant*
This feature makes it relatively easy to reduce the cost of any spell you want to copy, but gold and spell access is so dependent on campaign that I don't think it really matters.

*Metamagician*
Calculating this out:
2nd-4th level: 2 points
5th level: 4 points
6th level: 6 points
7th level: 9 points
8th level: 12 points
9th level: 16 points
10th level: 20 points
11th level: 25 points
12th level: 30 points
13th level: 36 points
14th level: 42 points
15th level: 49 poinits
16th level: 56 points
17th level: 64 points
18th-19th level: 72 points
20th level: 80 points

_Metacrush_ and _Metasight_ break 5e's bounded accuracy in half. _Metacrush_ stands out more because you could make a spell have a saving throw DC so high it was impossible to make and you'd be able to do so multiple times per day.

_Metacelerity_ does the equivalent of giving you access to Action Surge and the cost is low enough that you can afford to spam it. Taking away the limitation of only one leveled spell a turn leads to too much power.

_Metamorph_ allows you to get around resistances with ease for a really cheap cost. This would stand out as being too good if it wasn't surrounded by abilities that are even stronger.

_Metasplice_ and its granted ability to have two Concentration spells going for one round breaks a fundamental expectation of the game. Personal opinion, but I don't think Concentration expectations should be messed with.

*Specialty*
Where is the information on your specialty school located?



_Metadupe_ strikes me as being better than Twin Spell, which makes me think it is too powerful.

_Metatransfer_: Can you target enemies with this? If so, how would that work?

_Metatrespass_: Feign Death becomes the equivalent of a Save-or-Die spell with this option. Dimension Door allows you to teleport an enemy 500 feet straight up. Those were two examples off the top of my head. This is likely too strong. And what sort of save do foes make?

_Metaconversion_: When you switch a spell to have a save, what save would it be? Do you just get a free choice?

_Empowered Metabias_ is better than the School of Evocation's 2nd level ability.

_Empowered Metacrush_ was already absurdly powerful. This makes it more so.

Ditto for _Empowered Metasight_.

_Empowered Metamagnitude_ eventually allows for things like Tensor's transformation to be cast on your entire party. That's on the low power end of exploits this option would allow.

_Empowered Metamorph_: The Cold effect is extremely debilitating. Also, sonic damage doesn't exist. I think you want Thunder damage.

_Empowered Metasplice_: I really would advise against this. 

*Signature Style*
This gives you access to more metamagic options than a sorcerer. That's a little much.

*Expert Spellcraft*
I don't even know where to begin with this one.




You appear to have taken the sorcerer's metamagic options and made them better and cost less and given them to the wizard. At a minimum, I would suggest sticking with the sorcerer's normal metamagic options.



Two more.

*Spoiler: Blade of Justice*
Show

*A Bandage and a Prayer*
This is quite comparable to the Thief's *Fast Hands* and is in line with the capabilities you describe in the introduction to this subclass. I appreciate how those tie together.

*Retribution Strike*
This continues to build off your introduction. I'm seeing no issues with it. Extra damage is nice.

*Tend Wounds*
At the level you gain this feature, you can heal more than a paladin's *Lay on Hands* if you get one short rest. And that's only if one specific creature needs healing. If you've got enough healer's kits, you can restore 25 hit points per creature per rest. That's a lot of healing. This ability doesn't improve, but its baseline is good enough that it remains powerful.

This feature reminds me of the second bullet point of the Healer feat.

Could you perhaps replace this with a less powerful version of Lay on Hands? Maybe a version of Lay on Hands that requires uses from a healer's kit or something like that?

*Bring Out Courage*
This stacks with the paladin's *Aura of Protection*, which potentially makes it too good. It works fine if you don't have to worry about that. Maybe you could add a line about it not stacking?

*Silence the Wicked*
This is comparable to an Inquisitive's *Eye For Weakness* and is actually likely to be weaker because of the specificity of the prerequisites that need to be met. Again, more damage is nice.



This could use a few tweaks for balance, but it's got a solid base. I will note that there's not particularly anything jumping out to me as something that would make me excited to play a Blade of Justice. Could be personal taste, so I'd be interested in seeing others' opinions.



*Spoiler: Woodcarver*
Show

*Tool proficiency and Woodcarver casting*
Nothing sticks out to me here.

*Nature's Blessing*
What sort of action does it take to command the animal figure?

Anything with a fly speed is going to be a strong choice.

*Druidic knowledge*
_Shillelagh_ allows you to do a bit more damage in melee, but on its own I'm not foreseeing any issues.

*Wooden quickness*
This is comparable to the Battle Smith's *Extra Attack*. No problems that I can see.

*Wooden Armor*
Having a maximum AC of 19 if using this feature and a shield will not change much. And wearing wooden armor is cool, so that's a fun bonus!

*Root Down*
This feels underpowered in the middle of combat, especially because you don't have a way of breaking out of it once you start it. Out of combat, it's free healing to full hit points, which is too strong. I think setting a number of uses on this ability, perhaps changing how much healing you get to correspond with an ability score, and making it so you can end the ability would help.

*Mighty Oak*
I'm reminded more of the barbarian than the druid with this feature. I don't think this is strong enough, especially because artificers aren't likely to be relying too much on either ability. I'd look over the druid and see if there is another feature you could use.

----------


## Damon_Tor

The barbarian Path of Possession is up.

Sorry I wasn't around to vote in the last one.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Keeping in mind that I love the flavor, Arcane Expulsions is near broken, Indwelling requires a player centric reimagining, and Jealous Occupation is weak for a capstone.
> 
> Arcane Expulsions: 1/turn Eldritch Blast (even without invocations) on top of regular barbarian damage is going to skew far too strong and that's as a pure Barbarian, Chill Touch would be nearly as bad.  As a Hexblade/Barbarian Multiclass EB would be nuclear.


The comparison to the Zealot's bonus damage is relevant here. The Zealot's bonus damage is 1d6+half barbarian level. So at 10th level that's 8.5 average damage, at 15th it's 10.5, and at 20th it's 13.5. A firebolt or eldritch blast (without invocations, which is another issue) will deal 17.5 average damage at 11th-16th levels and 22 at 17th-20th. So the Zealot's feature only deals around 50-60% of the damage of the Possessed, but as long as you hit with a weapon attack the Zealot's damage is automatic, while the Possessed damage also relies on the save/attack of the cantrip. So as long as the chance to hit a given target is around 50-60% (which is reasonable, considering it uses the barbarian's secondary stat) the two subclasses should be reasonably balanced against one another.

I do have concerns about the use of an invocation-boosted eldritch blast here. I could always just have them to use the sorcerer spell list instead of the warlock spell list. It's less thematically appropriate, but it would resolve this issue.
*EDIT:* Change made.




> Indwelling: I understand the flavor but that means your level 6 ability is "you're an NPC for a few rounds."  That's not fun.  I've written a few classes and subclasses that provide additional personalities for the player to manage, I always put in a sidebar to discuss any conflicts with the DM and party at chargen so there's a good story to tell, and make it explicit your PC's actions are you, the player's decision even if some other force is supposed to be in charge of them bc this is something they're choosing (unlike say, a failed save vs Dominate Person).


For one thing, your level 6 feature will in many cases not result in you losing control at all. Much of the time I expect it would be used to extend a rage through rounds where the barbarian cannot attack, or to keep a rage going from one encounter to another. You don't lose control if you aren't incapacitated. Because you only lose control of yourself during a period of time when you would be unable to act anyway, there's no net loss of agency here. The passenger only takes the wheel if you aren't holding it anyway.




> Jealous Occupation: Assuming it comes up at all (those save types come from spells and if the DM doesn't make regular use of psychic type monsters or Enchanter wizards, then this feature may never see use), using your reaction to use a good save is pretty weak.  I would say either "While Raging add Con mod to Int/Wis/Cha saves and deal psychic damage of d12 + your Barbarian level to caster" so even if you fail the save there's a chance you break their concentration.  Alternatively you could just make the Barbarian immune to the Charmed condition while raging, but you can move that down to level 6 like the berserker.


I suppose getting rid of the reaction requirement would be fine. I disagree about how uncommon such saves are though.
*EDIT:* I rolled a simpler version of this into the level 10 feature and replaced the level 14 feature.




> Personally I think a Partial Possession capstone would be more fun where the Barbarian creates a weak Charm effect when initiating rage, like:
> 
> Partial Possession
> Beginning at 14th level the influence of your Dark Passenger is stoked by your rage such that smoky tendrils of its power can emerge from your body to touch the minds of nearby creatures.  While raging, you can use a bonus action to force a creature within 30 feet of you to make a Wisdom Saving throw against your Spell DC.  On a failure they must make a melee attack against a creature of your choosing on their next turn.  If they aren't within reach of their target they must use their movement or Dash to try and get within reach.  If an affected creature is friendly to you, it can use its reaction to make this attack instead.  You can use this Bonus action twice and regain all uses when you next Rage.
> 
> This is a powerful but limited control effect, evokes the Mindflayer of Stranger Things, it's something that's always useful even if you're fighting a solo target, maybe making it waste a turn running around to focus attacks on you or another hard target.


 I'm into it. I'll think about something like this, it's a good idea.
*EDIT:* Change made. The version I went with is weaker than what you proposed but also isn't limited to twice per rage.
*EDIT2:*  Thumbing through Tasha's, it only just now occurs to be how similar this is to the Path of the Beast feature. I'm going to take some time to reconsider my capstone here.




> Altogether, good flavor/concept but needs some work.  Good luck!


Thanks.

----------


## nickl_2000

> I don't know how you've managed to fit so many reviews in one day before, nickl_2000. It's seriously impressive. 
> 
> My current pace has me at only my second review of the day, but here's a review of your subclass.
> 
> *Spoiler: Fighter: Crusader*
> Show
> 
> *Spellcasting*
> _Cantrips_
> ...


I find it extremely important to do the reviews.  While we are here to compete and make the best received subclass, the real goal is to make a subclass that is playable and works in a game.  I frequently send people to these contest posts because the entries are such high quality.  I find that the peer review process it be extremely important in coming up with the best entries, so I try to make sure that I take a look at everything I can.  That being said, I've spent a lot of time reviewing and analyzing subclasses, so I can do it a little faster than others.  Also, the stream on conscious style to my reviews is faster than reading it through 4 times and having it a little more coherent (so that helps me as well).



Thank you for taking a look at mine as well.  I really value all feedback from people!

*Spells* - I fixed the cantrips, I still left it the way that it was but explained it a little bit better and made the progression more standard.  As for prepared vs known, you have a very solid point and argument.  I also got rid of rituals, you are right that it gives power that probably shouldn't be there (even though I like it, but hey no one wants to make an overly powered subclass).

*Divine Weapon* - This was superior to the EKs weapon bond, so I tamed it down some.  The first being that it no takes an action to summon/change the weapon type instead of a bonus action.  That alone should take away some of the versatility of this feature.  The light part of it was more for the sake of cool rather than being very helpful, in fact at early levels it's actually more of a negative than a positive.

*Divine Guidance* - Fixed the level things.  Thank you for catching that!

So, the thing with Guidance is that every single person who has this subclass is going to take guidance.  It is just way to good not to.  Oddly though, I didn't see the bonus action guidance as being that powerful in combat.  Guidance takes concentration, so you can't have Shield of Faith, Bless, or Spirit Guardians up and running when you cast it.  Beyond that, it is helpful in grappling and spotting others in combat.  The real gain is leaving it on someone with Counterspell/Dispel Magic though.  Still, since it's concentration it is only on one person at a time and you can't concentrate on anything else.  Plus it competes with other bonus actions for fighters.  I will think about it more, but as of right now I think this one is fine the way it is.

*Divine Connection* - That combination of this with spirit guardians is what I was going for actually.  It is brutal and nasty to go against, luckily the damage from spirit guardians isn't all that high when you are at level 15.


Thanks again for taking a look.  I will try and take a look at the last 2 and provide comments today.

----------


## CountDVB

We have a bunch of good ones! Blade of Justice is pretty clever!

----------


## nickl_2000

Getting those last reviews in before the deadline.

*Spoiler: Blade of Justice*
Show



*Bandage and a Prayer* - A good ability, pretty low impact and slightly takes away from the thief's use and object as a bonus action.  However, I don't see this as a huge deal since it just for stabilization purposes and there are lots of other ways to do that.  What about if you have the healer feat?  Can you use the healing action as a bonus action as well, or is that left out on purpose?

*Retribution Strike* - I like it, very fitting, very appropriate, and useful.  The only part I don't particularly like is adding an additional sneak attack die.  At low levels this will be absolutely amazing in the difference in damage.  At high levels more meh.  Either way, it's more work to keep track of and remember.  

*Tend Wounds* - This is interesting and a significant amount of healing per person.  I might consider scoping it with a stat or proficiency modifier instead of a flat use of 5 kit usages.  That way you see increases over time.

*Bring Out Courage* - What about Bless, does it stack with that?  Bardic Inspiration?  You have two choices for how to handle this, either say it doesn't stack with the Paladin's Aura or give it the same name as the Paladin's Aura.  Either way it makes it clearer that Bless and Bardic Inspiration are okay.

*Silence the Wicked* - I don't think this is a bad ability, but tracking it might be a nightmare in actual play.  Just a warning.


Overall I like the feel of this subclass.   It's got some great things going on with it.  I really like the mechanic of getting sneak attack by someone attacking an ally.  This would be even more fun with sentinel on this rogue







*Spoiler: Barbarian: Path of Possession*
Show



The dark passenger term sounds familiar, did you or someone else in the contest name a feature a dark passenger before?

*Dark Passenger* - wow... two skills, with expertise on both of them, allowed to use a primary Barb stat, and a language?  That is a lot, especially considering that there is more at level 3.

*Arcane Expulsions* - Whenever you gain a level... just note that it has to be a legal choice.  I.e. no BB/GFB clearly.  

A cantrip for free?  That's actually huge for a damage difference.  Personally I would choose Shocking Grasp and Mind Sliver since my goal would always to be within melee range.  Although True Strike has some interesting potential here, weird potential since how it is phrased, but still interesting.  I forgot to ask about spells that require concentration?  If you cast Create Bonfire, can you keep concentration on it?

*Symbiotic Resistance* - Making int/wisdom/cha saves as Con is pretty amazing on it's own.  I don't think you need the damage resistance.

*Infective Possession* - Hello Rogue friend who just doubled their damage.  Making your allies get a reaction attack every single round as a bonus action may end up being overpowered.  You would have to play test to make sure, but I think you may need to limit the amount of times this can be done to someone (pass or fail the save).

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> *EDIT2:*  Thumbing through Tasha's, it only just now occurs to be how similar this is to the Path of the Beast feature. I'm going to take some time to reconsider my capstone here.
> Thanks.


The damage of Zealot is reliable, but I think you might be underestimating the potential of EB's additional chances to Crit, but statistics aren't my specialty.

IME the number of times you can be incapacitated without being reduced to 0 hp is significant and I took it that your Ridealong got to act during any of them (Hypnotic Pattern, Stunning Strike, Sleep, some Charm effects, etc).  But if that's not your intent, then perhaps my reading was weak.

Didn't realize there'd be overlap with Beast path. I stopped reading the new one when I saw they bumped the Thagomizer down a die size or 2.  In that case I'd go with a Magic Jar-lite capstone.  

Partial Possession
Beginning at level 14, when you're reduced to 0 hp your Dark Passenger can drag your soul from the realm between life and death into the body of a creature within 60 feet.  The target creature must make a Charisma save vs your spell DC or become Possessed by you.  For the duration of the possession, at the beginning of the creature's turn you can decide whether you'll control its movement, its action, or its bonus action and the creature will behave as you direct, it is then free to use the remainder of its turn as it chooses.  The possession ends when you regain hit points, are stabilized, or die.  
If the creature is reduced to 0 hit points before the possession ends, the departure of its spirit empowers your Dark Passenger.  Your spirit returns to your body and you regain hit points equal to your Barbarian level.  You can use this feature once, you regain its use after a short or long rest.

----------


## Crim the Cold

> *Spoiler: Moonlighter*
> Show
> 
> The introduction to this subclass is succinct and funny.
> 
> *Moon Shape*
> The third bullet point might be better worded if it was something along the lines of "you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to use Moon Shape."
> 
> I'm already imagining delightfully fun shenanigans with this feature. It's inventive. I'm having trouble figuring out the balance of it because it mostly enhances utility, but it seems fine at face value.
> ...


Thank you for the review. I definitely agree with your wording for cunning action. Moon Swarm may be a bit strong but at that level you have wizards wielding spells like Wish for the easiest example. 

As for Moon Shape Expertise, my current D&D group had a player lose a character recently and the DM agreed to let him playtest this subclass. The group was level 11 and the penalty for character death is that your new character comes in at 1 level lower than the rest of the group. They usually catch up at the end of the current campaign before we swap out DMs. The auto miss rarely came up because of his tendency to remain in moon shape once transformed. Even when it did the two auto-misses per rest were not game breaking. The extra 40 hp from having two moon shapes at level 10 plus Uncanny Dodge did make for a tankier than normal rogue. Not too tanky though since that hp is wrapped up in an easy to smash low AC tiny bundle of fluff. I think my favorite part was the shenanigans he got into with an orc tribe by "hiding" on the backs of various tribe members as a spider. Lots of, "Don't move! I smash for you." He did ask me why I mentioned a murder squirrel in the intro but didn't make a stat block for a squirrel so I added that to the latest version. 

Speaking of which version 3 of the moonlighter is up with the changed line in Moon shape and an additional stat block for a squirrel in the Bonus Content section.

I also updated the changelog.

----------


## Twelvetrees

Managed to find time for another review!

*Spoiler: Circle of Spirit*
Show

*Spirit Points*
Being more mobile appears to be the primary benefit this feature provides when it is first acquired. It's helpful, but a little underwhelming. The most use I can think of for this feature is to preserve your concentration on spells by enabling you to get out of range of foes.

_Mental Fortress_ is incredibly good if you need to make any of those saves, but feels like a waste of points to use if you don't know the capabilities of your foes that well.

*Wholeness of Mind*
This can really add up to a lot of healing. But when Circle of the Moon exists, this is no issue in comparison.

*Improved Spirit Points*
_Mental Fortress_ starts to become more useful at higher levels, so I can see an improved version being an attractive choice. There's also a good chance that Mental Fortress is something you have points to spare for at this level, so it won't feel like a loss if you use it and then don't need to make a save.

_Become as Wind_ gives benefits that don't seem to do much for druids. The increased speed doesn't do a lot for a claass that has many ranged options and the weapon attack doesn't do much for a class that relies so heavily on spells.

_Wholeness of Mind_ is probably the best option here. It will always be helpful when you choose to use it and it gives you a much better healing effect now as well. I think the other two options could offer some additional benefits to make them competitive with this one.

*Tongue of the Wild*
Yep, this is useful. And particularly strong when doing anything other than fighting.



My major takeaway here is that a Circle of Spirit druid is well suited to healing their own wounds.



Edit: Two more.  :Small Smile: 

*Spoiler: Path of Possession*
Show

I really like the flavor at the beginning. This is certainly a character archetype that I've seen before in stories, so I'm exciting to see how the features work out.

*Dark Passenger*
Giving a barbarian a route to using Intelligence-based skills and giving them an extra language fits well with the idea of having a passenger living inside of you. The only thing that I feel is missing from this feature is the story reasoning behind being able to use Constitution for these checks. Do you need to be particularly hardy to bear the strain of the truths your passenger communicates to you? Is it that you must fight to regain control of your body after your passenger speaks through your mouth to say what it knows?

*Arcane Expulsions*
Woah, wait. This is barbarian combined with sorcerer. I was expecting warlock. Okay.

This is better than the Eldritch Knight's *War Magic*. You get to make your attacks as normal and then cast a cantrip as well. I think this needs to be toned back, despite how well it gets across the idea of an entity living inside of you being the one casting the spell.

*Indwelling*
The most common use for this ability that I can see would be when your character drops to 0 hit points. Continuing to stay up after that point is quite the risk to take and would more than likely result in death. If your party has the resources to spare to bring you back to life, this ability is extremely strong, but if they don't then it likely won't see much use.

I think this might be work better if it was something you could activate when you dropped to 0 hit points. Maybe you could remain at 1 hit point and gain a certain number of temporary hit points and still lose control of yourself?

*Symbiotic Resistance*
I can get behind this. Nothing much to comment on here, this seems solid.

*Infective Possession*
This appears most similar to the Berserker's *Retaliation* feature. I think they are about the same strength, with this feature potentially being the weaker of the two. Can you explain why you made the choice to allow a creature that saves against this feature to be immune to it for 24 hours? I'm wondering if that is necessary.



*Spoiler: Gymnast*
Show

*Special Requirements*
What's the reasoning behind requiring them to already have Expertise in Acrobatics instead of giving them it as a 3rd level feature?

*Unarmored Defense*
Okay. This is a slight boost to AC if the rogue has good Intelligence.

*Wind Sprint and Jump Kick*
I don't feel like a rogue gets much out of either of these abilities, surprisingly. Rogues can already use Cunning Action to move quickly and their weapons will outclass *Jump Kick* until 17th level. The unarmed strikes also aren't magical and don't ever become magical, which is a hinderance.

*Light as a Feather*
There's a lot going on here and it all feels quite convoluted. The climbing could apply to all movement with no issue. A *Thief* can do so from 3rd level, so I wouldn't see it being an issue. Falling damage being reduced by Acrobatics works but is quite variable. I think a set value would work better (and emulate the monk better).

Drop Attack feels unnecessarily complicated. I feel like it could be replaced with something along the lines of "If you fall on your turn and take no damage from the fall, deal +X extra damage this turn if you make a Sneak Attack."

*Spinning Kick*
More opportunities to land a Sneak Attack are useful

*Leaf on the Wind*
All of this feels too particular. As a player, I want to see new features, not slight expansions on old ones.

*Walking on Air*
I feel like the second paragraph of the monk's *Unarmored Movement* could replace this and be more clear. The saving throw granted by this feature is so specific that a character could go their entire career and never make use of it.

*Tornado Kick*
I think a set saving throw would be more appropriate than the saving throw DC set by an Acrobatics check.

----------


## Damon_Tor

I wrote the Path of Possession a new capstone, Dark Conduit. While raging, the Possessed Barbarian acts a gateway to his passenger's home plane, and he can use bonus actions while raging to produce Dark Underlings. These are quite weak as far as summons go, but he can produce several of them as the rage goes on, based on his constitution modifier. I don't think there's a summoner barbarian build yet so... here you go!




> The dark passenger term sounds familiar, did you or someone else in the contest name a feature a dark passenger before?


IIRC, that was the phrase used to describe Diablo during the part of Diablo II when he was bound in the body the hero of the first game.




> *Dark Passenger* - wow... two skills, with expertise on both of them, allowed to use a primary Barb stat, and a language?  That is a lot, especially considering that there is more at level 3.


 But they aren't _good_ skills. Neither knowledge checks nor languages are likely to move the needle in a typical game, so I consider this a ribbon.




> *Arcane Expulsions* - Whenever you gain a level... just note that it has to be a legal choice.  I.e. no BB/GFB clearly.


 I'll look into clarifying this, thank you. *EDIT:* Change made




> A cantrip for free?  That's actually huge for a damage difference.  Personally I would choose Shocking Grasp and Mind Sliver since my goal would always to be within melee range.  Although True Strike has some interesting potential here, weird potential since how it is phrased, but still interesting.  I forgot to ask about spells that require concentration?  If you cast Create Bonfire, can you keep concentration on it?


I went other the math I feel justifies the damage in an earlier response: compared to a Zealot's bonus damage, the Possessed's cantrip breaks even assuming it hits between 50 and 60% of the time (depending on what level we're doing the comparison). As for concentration, I had written wording allowing it in an earlier version, but I realized it wouldn't work well with the way I had limited the cantrip to only effecting creatures who you had hit with a weapon attack that turn: on subsequent turns would be bonfire just stop burning them even if it was still there? I could have rewritten that prohibition to allow for bonfire to be functional (I admit it would be neat on a grappling barbarian) but I decided it wasn't worth the added complexity of the wording, so I just cut it. As written, the bonfire would deal its damage once then immediately fizzle.




> *Symbiotic Resistance* - Making int/wisdom/cha saves as Con is pretty amazing on it's own.  I don't think you need the damage resistance.


 You're probably right. *EDIT:* Change made




> *Infective Possession* - Hello Rogue friend who just doubled their damage.  Making your allies get a reaction attack every single round as a bonus action may end up being overpowered.  You would have to play test to make sure, but I think you may need to limit the amount of times this can be done to someone (pass or fail the save).


 This ability has been replaced. As written the old ability was far too similar to an ability one of the TCoE barbarian subclasses gets.






> The damage of Zealot is reliable, but I think you might be underestimating the potential of EB's additional chances to Crit, but statistics aren't my specialty.


I changed this ability to pull from the Sorcerer spell list instead of Warlock, so EB shenanigans shouldn't be an issue.




> IME the number of times you can be incapacitated without being reduced to 0 hp is significant and I took it that your Ridealong got to act during any of them (Hypnotic Pattern, Stunning Strike, Sleep, some Charm effects, etc).  But if that's not your intent, then perhaps my reading was weak.


No, your reading was accurate, the Passenger would take the wheel if you were effected by those spells. But the point is, those spells normally prevent you from acting. So you aren't giving up actions to your Passenger, your Passenger is taking actions you would otherwise not have been able to take at all. When those spells stop effecting you, you would immediately be back in the driver's seat.




> Didn't realize there'd be overlap with Beast path. I stopped reading the new one when I saw they bumped the Thagomizer down a die size or 2.  In that case I'd go with a Magic Jar-lite capstone.  
> 
> Partial Possession
> Beginning at level 14, when you're reduced to 0 hp your Dark Passenger can drag your soul from the realm between life and death into the body of a creature within 60 feet.  The target creature must make a Charisma save vs your spell DC or become Possessed by you.  For the duration of the possession, at the beginning of the creature's turn you can decide whether you'll control its movement, its action, or its bonus action and the creature will behave as you direct, it is then free to use the remainder of its turn as it chooses.  The possession ends when you regain hit points, are stabilized, or die.  
> If the creature is reduced to 0 hit points before the possession ends, the departure of its spirit empowers your Dark Passenger.  Your spirit returns to your body and you regain hit points equal to your Barbarian level.  You can use this feature once, you regain its use after a short or long rest.


I went a different way with it, opting to get rid of the offensive-possession concept entirely and go with a summoning ability instead.






> I really like the flavor at the beginning. This is certainly a character archetype that I've seen before in stories, so I'm exciting to see how the features work out.
> 
> *Dark Passenger*
> Giving a barbarian a route to using Intelligence-based skills and giving them an extra language fits well with the idea of having a passenger living inside of you. The only thing that I feel is missing from this feature is the story reasoning behind being able to use Constitution for these checks. Do you need to be particularly hardy to bear the strain of the truths your passenger communicates to you? Is it that you must fight to regain control of your body after your passenger speaks through your mouth to say what it knows?


 My interpretation: whenever the Passenger interacts with you, it _hurts_. It's voice might feel like a ringing in your ears or a burning in your brain. The higher your tolerance to pain, the more intimate and meaningful your connection to your Passenger can become. But that's fluff, and in general I don't like to get too in depth with that within the description of a given ability. Maybe one player's Passenger opens a Magic Mouth on the barbarian's chest to opine about the meaning of ineffable sigils. Maybe another Passenger feeds directly on the lifeforce of his host, and thinks more clearly if he's got more to feed on. Heck, maybe the passenger is an illithid tadpole that took a wrong at Albuquerque and took up residence in its host's liver instead of his brain, and so directly translates the vitality of its host into cognitive ability because his liver is kind of a secondary thinking organ.




> *Arcane Expulsions*Woah, wait. This is barbarian combined with sorcerer. I was expecting warlock. Okay.


Blurry line I suppose. The Passenger is not a Patron, though comparisons can obviously be drawn. Mostly the core reason for using the Sorcerer spell list for this feature is mechanical: I didn't want Eldritch Blast to be a legal choice.




> This is better than the Eldritch Knight's *War Magic*. You get to make your attacks as normal and then cast a cantrip as well. I think this needs to be toned back, despite how well it gets across the idea of an entity living inside of you being the one casting the spell.


War Magic isn't limited by a daily resource like Arcane Expulsions is limited by Rage uses, so we expect features which only work while raging to more powerful than features that work all day. It's also relevant that Arcane Expulsions doesn't allow Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade, while War Magic does.




> *Indwelling*
> The most common use for this ability that I can see would be when your character drops to 0 hit points. Continuing to stay up after that point is quite the risk to take and would more than likely result in death. If your party has the resources to spare to bring you back to life, this ability is extremely strong, but if they don't then it likely won't see much use.


I expect the most common use of this ability would be to stretch the duration of your rage from one encounter to another (a use which wouldn't cause you to lose control of yourself, I'll note). If you use it to stay standing after hitting 0 HP there's the risk of death, yes. It's weaker than the Zealot's Rage Beyond Death in this way, but then it _should_ be weaker as the ability comes much sooner. As you get more rages/day the utility of stretching out your rages will diminish, but will become relevant again once you get Dark Conduit. Because your underlings vanish when your rage ends, by stretching out one rage you would prevent yourself from having to resummon your droogies after you start a new rage.




> I think this might be work better if it was something you could activate when you dropped to 0 hit points. Maybe you could remain at 1 hit point and gain a certain number of temporary hit points and still lose control of yourself?


 That starts to step on the toes of the Zealot more than I would like.




> *Infective Possession*
> This appears most similar to the Berserker's *Retaliation* feature. I think they are about the same strength, with this feature potentially being the weaker of the two. Can you explain why you made the choice to allow a creature that saves against this feature to be immune to it for 24 hours? I'm wondering if that is necessary.


 As noted, this ability has been replaced.

----------


## Damon_Tor

I'd really like feedback on this:




> *Dark Conduit*
> Starting at 14th level, your dark passenger can use your body as a portal to its native plane. When you enter your rage, and as a bonus action while raging, you can summon a Dark Underling to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your constitution modifier and regain all uses of it when you begin a new rage.See its game statistics in the Dark Underling stat block.You determine the creature's appearance; your choices have no effect on its game statistics.When you gain this ability, pick one creature type (for example, fiend, fey, undead, aberration, etc): your underlings have that creature typeIn combat, your underlings share your initiative count, but they take their turns immediately after yours. They follow your mental orders (no action required) to the best of their ability.A Dark Underling vanishes when your current rage ends or when it is reduced to 0 or fewer hitpoints. Your Dark Underlings act on your initiative, taking their turns after yours. They follow your mental orders (no action required) to the best of their ability.
> 
> *Dark Underling*
> _Tiny_
> __________________________________________________
> *Armor Class* 10
> *Hitpoints* 1
> *Speed* 30 ft., Fly 30 ft.
> ...


They're deliberately low-paperwork minions. No HP to track, all saves at +0, AC at 10. They can be casually swatted away by just about anything, but even that's a win: an attack that gets wasted on an Underling doesn't land on you or your allies. Of course an AoE attack will wipe them out unless it's a damage type they're immune to, but even then you can call that a victory because you're getting that AoE dropped on your frontline instead of on top of your casters.

It's worth noting that the Possessed barbarian is unique in that he can "pre-rage" if he feels like it, using Indwelling to feed his rage with a Hit Die instead of needing to attack. So if the situation allows for it, he can take a minute and pre-summon a little swarm of these guys before he runs into battle.

----------


## Crim the Cold

*Damon_Tor*, I'm not the sharpest knife in the Caesar but usually abilities that either increase your party's action economy or reduce the enemy's action economy are usually very powerful. In this case, other classes get access to much more powerful abilities much sooner. I'd say its probably okay. It has the potential to be among the weakest or the strongest of the level 14 path abilities based on whether they snowball or not. It depends on the DM.

----------


## Edea

I'm withdrawing my entry, sorry.  I simply don't have the time right now to go over it, Christmas On a Very Icy Day had wreaked havoc with my work schedule.  Best of luck to other entrants.

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## MoleMage

Voting time!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...5#post24833915

I also updated the first post with the new representation standings, tiebreaker rules, and the future contest ideas spoiler has been renamed to contest theme pool and updated with the full list of themes I am keeping track of in a spreadsheet, including indication of which ones are not currently in the voting pool.

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## sengmeng

My entry should be considered withdrawn :(

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## MoleMage

> My entry should be considered withdrawn :(


Did I miss a request for that somewhere? Or are you withdrawing it as of now? It seems complete to me.

EDIT: Oh, just saw the missing 6th level feature. I'm okay with leaving it in the running since I missed it on the first passthrough and some votes are already in, but if you'd rather withdraw it still I can strike it out.

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## sengmeng

> Did I miss a request for that somewhere? Or are you withdrawing it as of now? It seems complete to me.
> 
> EDIT: Oh, just saw the missing 6th level feature. I'm okay with leaving it in the running since I missed it on the first passthrough and some votes are already in, but if you'd rather withdraw it still I can strike it out.


You don't have to do anything, I just thought I'd warn future voters it's not complete so as not to waste their time.

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## sengmeng

> 1. Monk: Way of the Punchimancer	sengmeng


I'm flattered and confused

----------


## sleepyhead

> I'm flattered and confused


Just a big fan of the concept. Most entrys could use more development  (especially my own) so as long as the idea and general direction are in place I'm not really concerned about completeness.

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## CountDVB

3 days of voting left everyone!

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## Damon_Tor

> Why are subclasses so much more popular than base classes in 5e?


(Replying here so as to not clutter the voting thread)

It's fairly challenging to come up with a concept that doesn't fit in well with one of the other base classes. Looking at the base class homebrews I spend all my time thinking "why isn't this just a subclass of x?". It's extremely unusual that someone comes up with a base class that I really feel needs its own identity. I feel like that's baked into 5e, where the base classes are very basic by design are are intended to be expanded upon via subclasses.

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## sengmeng

> (Replying here so as to not clutter the voting thread)
> 
> It's fairly challenging to come up with a concept that doesn't fit in well with one of the other base classes. Looking at the base class homebrews I spend all my time thinking "why isn't this just a subclass of x?". It's extremely unusual that someone comes up with a base class that I really feel needs its own identity. I feel like that's baked into 5e, where the base classes are very basic by design are are intended to be expanded upon via subclasses.


Very complete and well thought out answer, my two copper pieces to add is that making a base class means making 2 or 3 subclasses as well to go with it, plus the basic chassis will likely be even more work than that, so on top of Molemage's excellent reasoning above, it's also about five times as much work.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> (Replying here so as to not clutter the voting thread)
> 
> It's fairly challenging to come up with a concept that doesn't fit in well with one of the other base classes. Looking at the base class homebrews I spend all my time thinking "why isn't this just a subclass of x?". It's extremely unusual that someone comes up with a base class that I really feel needs its own identity. I feel like that's baked into 5e, where the base classes are very basic by design are are intended to be expanded upon via subclasses.





> Very complete and well thought out answer, my two copper pieces to add is that making a base class means making 2 or 3 subclasses as well to go with it, plus the basic chassis will likely be even more work than that, so on top of Molemage's excellent reasoning above, it's also about five times as much work.


Totally agree to both. Several times I have had ideas not suitable to be developed as subclasses, but which were not rich enough to be developed as base classes with 2 or 3 dedicated subclasses.

To be honest, I think that there's absolutely nothing wrong to develop base classes with no subclasses.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Totally agree to both. Several times I have had ideas not suitable to be developed as subclasses, but which were not rich enough to be developed as base classes with 2 or 3 dedicated subclasses.
> 
> To be honest, I think that there's absolutely nothing wrong to develop base classes with no subclasses.


_Choices_ are important, even if those aren't _exactly_ subclasses.

For example, I've only ever put together one full class for 5e, a dragonborn racial class meant to recreate the experience of playing as a dragon. It didn't have subclasses per-se but it was structured loosely on the Warlock progression and you gained additional features based on your draconic ancestor at the same levels a warlock would gain patron features, a one time choice at level 3 taking the place of the pact boons, and a selection of various dragon features you can add to your body which progress at the same rate Warlocks gain their invocations. The end result of all these choices is that you could build one these guys as a melee brute or a breath-weapon nuker or even a high-charisma infiltrator even without anything that looks anything like a subclass proper.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> _Choices_ are important, even if those aren't _exactly_ subclasses.
> 
> For example, I've only ever put together one full class for 5e, a dragonborn racial class meant to recreate the experience of playing as a dragon. It didn't have subclasses per-se but it was structured loosely on the Warlock progression and you gained additional features based on your draconic ancestor at the same levels a warlock would gain patron features, a one time choice at level 3 taking the place of the pact boons, and a selection of various dragon features you can add to your body which progress at the same rate Warlocks gain their invocations. The end result of all these choices is that you could build one these guys as a melee brute or a breath-weapon nuker or even a high-charisma infiltrator even without anything that looks anything like a subclass proper.


You are right, but giving choices with a Fighting Style, the pick of a spell or a maneuver, or similar feature that let you choose between several effect are a thing, a subclass is completely different.

A subclass usually needs a proper flavour and/or a proper mechanic.

----------


## nickl_2000

I don't make new classes very often myself (in fact, I've only made one and wasn't happy with it).  It's for a few reasons, one is because it is so much work.  You need to design a new base class that has something unique and different and then 3 subclasses to go along with it, it's just a lot and I don't want to put that much time into it.  The second is that nearly all of my ideas can be achieved through the design space that already exists.  With the addition of the artificer, there is a lot of different feels of classes out there and most of my flavour and ideas can be fit into what already exists.

Beyond that, I only have so many ideas.  Eventually I run out of new mechanics that I can put into a character.  When I am creating a subclass, I only need 2-3 new mechanics or ideas (sometimes less) and can make something unique and makes an impact.  When creating a new class, I need 15 or so new ideas and that can be painful to have all of them without feeling like I am re-hashing what already exists.

TL:DR I can do what I want with the classes that already exist and I'm to lazy to make a whole new class.

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## Damon_Tor

Unless my math is wrong, it looks to me like Subsystems Online and I Read it in a Book are tied. If so I'm happy to swap my choice to break the tie in favor of Subsystems Online: I don't really have a strong opinion between the two.

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## CountDVB

> Unless my math is wrong, it looks to me like Subsystems Online and I Read it in a Book are tied. If so I'm happy to swap my choice to break the tie in favor of Subsystems Online: I don't really have a strong opinion between the two.


How would Subsystems Online work? We make our own sub-mechanic or borrow it from homebrewed sources? What counts as homebrew?

----------


## MoleMage

> Time to count up our winnings and get out of here with our borrowed class features. Other than first place, it was a tight race with three classes earning 6 and two classes earning 7 points, but that's why I codified the tiebreaker rules a couple contests back.
> 
> In 3rd place, losing the tiebreaker but earning 7 points, it's MoleMage's *Circle of Spirit*! Master the self, and you master all, and that applies for druids as much as for monks.
> 
> In 2nd place, winning out that same tiebreaker by dint of more 1st-place votes, also earning 7 points, it's Ilerien's *Way of the Chameleon*! Why borrow one class's features when you can borrow them all?
> 
> And in 1st place, winning with a staggering 12 points, nearly twice as many as any other entrant, it's Crim the Cold's *Moonlighter Rogue*! Turn into small, seemingly helpless animals, then use the advantage provided by your cuteness to commit crimes!
> 
> For our themes, we had a tie in total points, but Subsystems Online took the greater number of 1st place votes, so what we're going to do is this: Context XX will be Subsystem's Online, and Contest XXI will be I Read This in a Book. There won't be a voting pool for theme next voting thread, and we'll start over with a newly randomized batch of themes in the one after that.


Voting has been called! I'll be formatting the Context XX entry thread over the next couple minutes, but I'm sure some of you have already got ideas in the works.

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## CountDVB

I did better than last time! That's good! Congrats and happy holidays!

How would subsystems work excatly? At least as you put it? Kinda like how we have the Battle Master mechanics, but we make it ourselves?

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## MoleMage

New Thread is up!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...3#post24855423




> I did better than last time! That's good! Congrats and happy holidays!
> 
> How would subsystems work excatly? At least as you put it? Kinda like how we have the Battle Master mechanics, but we make it ourselves?


I got into a little more detail in the submission thread, but essentially yeah. I'd consider Battle Master maneuvers and Spellcasting to be the big "subsystems" in core play. Really any feature that can be lifted, have the stats and maybe the number known changed, and dropped on another class. When I'm thinking to myself I call them "shared mechanics" (any mechanic used by more than one class with small variations).

----------


## CountDVB

> New Thread is up!
> 
> https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...3#post24855423
> 
> 
> 
> I got into a little more detail in the submission thread, but essentially yeah. I'd consider Battle Master maneuvers and Spellcasting to be the big "subsystems" in core play. Really any feature that can be lifted, have the stats and maybe the number known changed, and dropped on another class. When I'm thinking to myself I call them "shared mechanics" (any mechanic used by more than one class with small variations).


Would stuff from unreleased Unearthed Arcana count or no?

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## MoleMage

> Would stuff from unreleased Unearthed Arcana count or no?


I'll say go for it. It's not technically homebrew, but it's not published content either.

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## CountDVB

> I'll say go for it. It's not technically homebrew, but it's not published content either.


True, though I suppose we could ask you if something counts as viable, right?

----------


## Lvl45DM!

Yeah what about Blood Hunter Mutagens or Warlock Invocations? Are those subsystems?

Cos my Artificer Specialty: Fleshwarper or Sorcerous Origin: Bloodline Infuser would be closer to them.

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## Damon_Tor

I feel like we're always pretty relaxed about what "counts" for meeting the theme. I'm a little worried people are going to get hung up on "choose x amount of features from this long list of features" (like spellcasting, maneuvers, infusions, invocations, etc) but that's not how I read the theme. Psi dice (both as presented in UA and in print) would be a subsystem. I would argue that a paladin's "smite" could even be considered a subsystem considering that warlocks got their own version of it.

Tipping my hand a little, I'm working on a monk subclass that can enter a "stance" which comes with bonuses and penalties. Each turn he can go deeper into his stance and the bonuses and penalties increase. That's kind of it, that's what I'm planning. The new subsystem is "stances" and in theory any subclass might have a stance or stances they can enter and deepen in the same way. Stances are mutually exclusive, and you must exit one stance before you enter another. This monk just has the one stance, but there's not a reason another monk (or fighter or rogue or whatever else) couldn't have one or more stances of their own.

----------


## MoleMage

> Yeah what about Blood Hunter Mutagens or Warlock Invocations? Are those subsystems?
> 
> Cos my Artificer Specialty: Fleshwarper or Sorcerous Origin: Bloodline Infuser would be closer to them.


Yes, those are both subsystems, though the Warlock Invocations one would not be an ideal fit because the theme calls for homebrew subsystems (the Blood Hunter, though extremely widely known and used, is still technically not official content and I consider it homebrew). Damon Tor's examples are also good, Psi Dice is an excellent example (the basic mechanics work the same for all classes that use them, but the actual usage varies). Smite is one I hadn't considered but definitely fits the theme.

And as Damon Tor said, we don't really enforce theme as a matter of permissibility. If you think it fits, we accept that entry, and nobody has yet made one that was so flagrantly off-theme that we had to question it (this isn't a challenge). Many people do consider how well aligned to the theme an entry is when they are voting or giving feedback.

----------


## Lvl45DM!

> Yes, those are both subsystems, though the Warlock Invocations one would not be an ideal fit because the theme calls for homebrew subsystems (the Blood Hunter, though extremely widely known and used, is still technically not official content and I consider it homebrew). Damon Tor's examples are also good, Psi Dice is an excellent example (the basic mechanics work the same for all classes that use them, but the actual usage varies). Smite is one I hadn't considered but definitely fits the theme.
> 
> And as Damon Tor said, we don't really enforce theme as a matter of permissibility. If you think it fits, we accept that entry, and nobody has yet made one that was so flagrantly off-theme that we had to question it (this isn't a challenge). Many people do consider how well aligned to the theme an entry is when they are voting or giving feedback.


Oh no, certainly not just taking those existing ones. If im gonna work with a subsystem then the challenge is to make a subsystem.
also holy crap, two entries already? Y'all are nerds  :Small Tongue:  I love it.

----------


## nickl_2000

> Voting has been called! I'll be formatting the Context XX entry thread over the next couple minutes, but I'm sure some of you have already got ideas in the works.


Congratulations folks!

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## MoleMage

> Oh no, certainly not just taking those existing ones. If im gonna work with a subsystem then the challenge is to make a subsystem.
> also holy crap, two entries already? Y'all are nerds  I love it.


At this point I'm surprised if we don't have at least one full entry by the end of the first day.

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## CountDVB

Inspired by the "Wild Card Gambit" of_ Legends of Runeterra: Dark Tides of Bilgewater_'s Wild Card Rogue (this counts as homebrew according to the D&D wikidot, so that's my justification)...

I present the Cleric's Fortune Domain, Version 1.0

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## RickAsWritten

Wizard Arcane Tradition  Anti-Mage

This...is the most ambitious subclass that I have ever attempted.  I pretty much chopped-and-screwed one of the most iconic classes in fantasy gaming.  I...really don't know if this is balanced or even how to balance it without extensive play-testing.  I know that it's front-loaded, but I tried to keep multiclassing in mind.  That said, I love the anti-mage trope and have been wanting to create something like this for a while, but none of the contests matched up theme-wise.  Even if it needs some work, I'm proud of it and think it would be a lot of fun to play.

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## sengmeng

I like how the Atoner turned out. PEACH

----------


## Ilerien

> Wizard Arcane Tradition  Anti-Mage
> 
> This...is the most ambitious subclass that I have ever attempted.  I pretty much chopped-and-screwed one of the most iconic classes in fantasy gaming.  I...really don't know if this is balanced or even how to balance it without extensive play-testing.  I know that it's front-loaded, but I tried to keep multiclassing in mind.  That said, I love the anti-mage trope and have been wanting to create something like this for a while, but none of the contests matched up theme-wise.  Even if it needs some work, I'm proud of it and think it would be a lot of fun to play.


Quick feedback just to point out what catches the eye immediately:



> You have a strong innate ability to perform magic


Fluff-wise, sounds like a sorcerer to me, not a wizard, to be honest. :) Mechanics-wise, a sorcerer would make more sense too: would be odd if a 1st level wizard suddenly became its own antithesis after levelling up. Sorcerers get their subclass at the 1st level.



> In addition, the spell slots gained from this class cannot be used to cast spells from another class spell list.


There's an inconsistency with 5e multiclassing rules: if you have spellcasting from more than one class, you can't distinguish between spell slots gained from one class or the other. I suggest disallowing spellcasting using spell slots altogether.



> In exchange for losing the ability to cast magic, you gain the innate abilities listed below and you can use the power of your spell slots to power anti-mage abilities that you gain as you level up.


There should be more options fueled by spell slots: I see only one, and it's kinda situational. Before you get to the 6th level, you won't use your spell slots much. Also, most (if not all) options should take into account the expended slot's level.

----------


## RickAsWritten

> Quick feedback just to point out what catches the eye immediately:
> Fluff-wise, sounds like a sorcerer to me, not a wizard, to be honest. :) Mechanics-wise, a sorcerer would make more sense too: would be odd if a 1st level wizard suddenly became its own antithesis after levelling up. Sorcerers get their subclass at the 1st level.
> 
> *Hah, yeah it was originally a sorcerer, but I didn't feel comfortable with how much stuff I would have had to make available for a one-level dip.  I know two isn't all that much better, but it's still twice the cost and twice the delay to your other class. * 
> 
> There's an inconsistency with 5e multiclassing rules: if you have spellcasting from more than one class, you can't distinguish between spell slots gained from one class or the other. I suggest disallowing spellcasting suing spell slots altogether.
> 
> *Good suggestion, and fitting with the theme of being cut off from the weave. * 
> 
> ...


*See highlighted*  Thanks for the feedback!

----------


## Damon_Tor

On the fortune cleric: chess has no luck element, and presumably neither does dragon chess. It feels a bit odd that it would be available as a possible game proficiency for a fortune cleric with that in mind.

----------


## Damon_Tor

The Stone Foot monk is ready for initial critique.

----------


## CountDVB

> On the fortune cleric: chess has no luck element, and presumably neither does dragon chess. It feels a bit odd that it would be available as a possible game proficiency for a fortune cleric with that in mind.


I went with what the preexisting system had and so on for it. Ill see if I can come up with other names though

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Wizard Arcane Tradition  Anti-Mage
> 
> This...is the most ambitious subclass that I have ever attempted.  I pretty much chopped-and-screwed one of the most iconic classes in fantasy gaming.  I...really don't know if this is balanced or even how to balance it without extensive play-testing.  I know that it's front-loaded, but I tried to keep multiclassing in mind.  That said, I love the anti-mage trope and have been wanting to create something like this for a while, but none of the contests matched up theme-wise.  Even if it needs some work, I'm proud of it and think it would be a lot of fun to play.


Its a wizard with no spells, with (in effect) a d8 hit die and armor and weapon proficiencies. I can't help but feel like the base class here is entirely irrelevant mechanically, so it's purely a fluff decision. You could make this a druid subclass and avoid having to change the hit points and armor, flavor it like a druid sect that believes magic is anathema to nature. Or it could be a cleric domain for a god is opposition to spellcasting. I'm just struck by the "why a wizard" problem.

----------


## RickAsWritten

> Its a wizard with no spells, with (in effect) a d8 hit die and armor and weapon proficiencies. I can't help but feel like the base class here is entirely irrelevant mechanically, so it's purely a fluff decision. You could make this a druid subclass and avoid having to change the hit points and armor, flavor it like a druid sect that believes magic is anathema to nature. Or it could be a cleric domain for a god is opposition to spellcasting. I'm just struck by the "why a wizard" problem.


I can't tell if that is a weakness in my design, or proof-positive that it follows the contest prompt to a tee.  Probably both.  It gives an easy sub-system template to remove spellcasting from other spellcaster classes, but at the same time doesn't go far enough to have a true identity.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> I went with what the preexisting system had and so on for it. Ill see if I can come up with other names though


You could expand your theme to be more of a "games" domain more broadly. But I don't think you need a third option that badly. You could cut the chess set and focus on the other two feature sets.

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## CountDVB

> You could expand your theme to be more of a "games" domain more broadly. But I don't think you need a third option that badly. You could cut the chess set and focus on the other two feature sets.


I did go with what the original "Wild Card" subclass pattern had, which was dragonchess alongside die and cards. I might change it with something else if that's cumbersome.

----------


## sengmeng

> I like how the Atoner turned out. PEACH


Bump. Not sure if this got seen since it was the final post last page.

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## Damon_Tor

> Bump. Not sure if this got seen since it was the final post last page.


I like it, it's probably my favorite so far. The simplicity of the system is good: I feel like complexity is looking like a challenge in this particular topic given the pressure to design a robust "system", but you've avoided it well without sacrificing the core of the theme. I could easily see a reverse ability, where a paladin could accrue good boy points for healing with his spell slots which he could then apply to his attacks like a smite.

I have some balance concerns, but I haven't had a chance to sit down and really look at the numbers yet. My gut says that getting a level one spell every time you deal 5 sneak attack damage is probably broken. I'm not sure what would be more appropriate without doing some math. Given an average number of encounters we would want this guy to cast a similar number of spells per day comparable to a 1/3 caster of the same level, so whatever value would give you those numbers is what you should go with.

I'll note that Detect Evil and Good doesn't actually do what it says on the tin anymore, so unless you really want to trick someone into thinking you're a fiend or a celestial, Karma Chameleon doesn't seem very useful.

----------


## sengmeng

> I like it, it's probably my favorite so far. The simplicity of the system is good: I feel like complexity is looking like a challenge in this particular topic given the pressure to design a robust "system", but you've avoided it well without sacrificing the core of the theme. I could easily see a reverse ability, where a paladin could accrue good boy points for healing with his spell slots which he could then apply to his attacks like a smite.
> 
> I have some balance concerns, but I haven't had a chance to sit down and really look at the numbers yet. My gut says that getting a level one spell every time you deal 5 sneak attack damage is probably broken. I'm not sure what would be more appropriate without doing some math. Given an average number of encounters we would want this guy to cast a similar number of spells per day comparable to a 1/3 caster of the same level, so whatever value would give you those numbers is what you should go with.
> 
> I'll note that Detect Evil and Good doesn't actually do what it says on the tin anymore, so unless you really want to trick someone into thinking you're a fiend or a celestial, Karma Chameleon doesn't seem very useful.


I agree with your concerns for the most part, but the math involved is really simple as it is now. I might trash the spellcasting altogether if I can think of some other abilities.

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## Damon_Tor

> I agree with your concerns for the most part, but the math involved is really simple as it is now. I might trash the spellcasting altogether if I can think of some other abilities.


The math is complicated only because its notoriously difficult to balance unlimited abilities against short-rest resources and against long-rest resources.

A rogue deals ~3.5 sneak attack damage in a turn for every two levels in the class. At level 3 that's 7 damage per turn. At ~3 rounds per encounter, that's 2 1st level spells cast per combat, so with just two combats per day that's more than a paladin, artificer or ranger can manage per day at that level. That seems too high to me, especially because the rogue is a martial class, and thus any spellcasting subclasses should _probably_ be balanced as 1/3 casters. I would think 10 bad karma points would be a more appropriate cost per spell-slot level. 

But as I said, this sort of balance is challenging. How many combat rounds exist in a given adventuring day can vary wildly from one table to the next, and from one module to another. IMO, assuming an adventuring day of 6 combat encounters of 3 rounds each is appropriate when attempting to balance a daily resource against an unlimited one.

----------


## sengmeng

> The math is complicated only because its notoriously difficult to balance unlimited abilities against short-rest resources and against long-rest resources.
> 
> A rogue deals ~3.5 sneak attack damage in a turn for every two levels in the class. At level 3 that's 7 damage per turn. At ~3 rounds per encounter, that's 2 1st level spells cast per combat, so with just two combats per day that's more than a paladin, artificer or ranger can manage per day at that level. That seems too high to me, especially because the rogue is a martial class, and thus any spellcasting subclasses should _probably_ be balanced as 1/3 casters. I would think 10 bad karma points would be a more appropriate cost per spell-slot level. 
> 
> But as I said, this sort of balance is challenging. How many combat rounds exist in a given adventuring day can vary wildly from one table to the next, and from one module to another. IMO, assuming an adventuring day of 6 combat encounters of 3 rounds each is appropriate when attempting to balance a daily resource against an unlimited one.


I meant the math the player has to do for bookkeeping. Now I've altered it to have significantly less casting power, but oddly more healing power. I may rein in the healing.

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## Damon_Tor

> I meant the math the player has to do for bookkeeping. Now I've altered it to have significantly less casting power, but oddly more healing power. I may rein in the healing.


Spellcasting looks much more balanced now.

You're right, the healing might be a _little_ much right now, but I wouldn't worry about it too much: it costs an action and has a range of touch, which limits its utility.

----------


## CountDVB

Hope everyone had a good New Year!

Alot of these definitely look interesting

----------


## MoleMage

Alrighty everyone, I hope you had a good new year! My last week has been a little busy (mostly of the fun kind, fortunately), but I'm going to try to set aside a little time this week to get reviews up. While I'm at it, I'll be trying to think of ideas for an entry of my own. I certainly have enough systems already written, though I may be tempted to ask for permission to adapt someone else's.




> While we're in the voting period, there's a couple things I wanted to ask about, regarding potential special rules in contests.
> 
> *In general, how do people feel about special rules for specific contests?*
> These can be simple things, like the "I Read This" contest requiring that you specifically name the source of inspiration, or we could do a theme where they are more complicated, like my question below regarding the potential future Subsystems theme. Are they too interruptive? Do they make things more fun? What sort of restrictions should apply before an additional rule is declared?
> 
> 
> 
> *Subsystems Online* is doing consistently well in the theme voting, now in its third consecutive vote as it carried forward on the runner-up rule. For this contest specifically I had a few optional rules ideas, but I obviously don't want to do anything that makes the contest less fun. 
> 
> ...


While I'm here, I remembered and used the Search Function to find this discussion from 19 months ago specifically about this contest. Woulda been better if I had remembered that _before_ making the contest, because it's a little late to change the rules on the contest. I like the way the current version is running, besides.

*However*, I'm now considering opening a mini-contest during voting (so only two weeks instead of the customary four), for anyone who wants to create a different subclass using one of the entries' new systems (obviously only with permission), including the option to create a second subclass for your own new system. Thoughts?

----------


## CountDVB

Little more than a week left

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## nickl_2000

> Little more than a week left


Sorry folks, I haven't been able to find the time to write or review anything this time around.  I will be back for the next one and will vote when those are up.

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## CountDVB

> Sorry folks, I haven't been able to find the time to write or review anything this time around.  I will be back for the next one and will vote when those are up.


No worries! It has been a bit quiet here.

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## MoleMage

Would anyone else like an extension? Time got away from me a bit this month but I would still like to do reviews and make a subclass for this one.

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## Damon_Tor

> Would anyone else like an extension? Time got away from me a bit this month but I would still like to do reviews and make a subclass for this one.


I don't need one, but I have no objections. Seconded.

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## Twelvetrees

> Would anyone else like an extension? Time got away from me a bit this month but I would still like to do reviews and make a subclass for this one.


Thirded. I think I'll have time to get mine finished before the current deadline, but I could use some more time to get reviews out.

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## MoleMage

Three's the cutoff, two week extension is now in place!

----------


## MoleMage

Reviews!

*Spoiler: College of Musicians*
Show


Frankly, if I had my druthers, magic users would have more varied mechanics. Everyone being Vancian (even pseudo-Vancian) makes the system a lot cleaner, but I love mechanics. 

This is your Song: the 18th level magical secrets would give this subclass the ability to use two (different) 9th level spells each day. No other class has the ability to cast more than one 9th level spell per day (the Cleric can do so once per week, provided their Divine Intervention roll succeeds or they are level 20, I guess).

Actually, other than that I don't have a lot to say here. The mechanic looks fun to use, if a little challenging if you want to cause damage (since you can only use each damage type category once, as I understand it). Overture and Haunting Melody work well to expand the underlying system, and I don't see any overt abuse. It's hard to fit something like this onto the College level progression, so any more would make certain levels feel very bloated.



*Spoiler: Way of the Stone Foot*
Show


I really like the flavor of this class, and I enjoy the stance mechanics too. I'm a little sad that there's only one stance for it, but I see how another would get in the way of the theme and features. I would add the ability to 

The individual features all look okay to me, though the focus on grappling ironically seems hindered by the limited mobility, since you can't really drag people around very easily (on the other hand, you can shove whatever you want with a +10 to Str checks once you get Earthroot Chakra and max Wis). Muladhara Binding looks hilarious, just the idea of grabbing guys and chucking them at other guys is a really iconic adventure story thing that 5e really doesn't have a good way to model, until now.

Incidentally, would you mind if I used the Stance mechanic in an entry of my own? I'm curious about trying to expand it.



*Spoiler: Fleshwarper*
Show


You know, until you wrote this I had forgotten about 3.5's fleshgrafts. I assume they were in the inspiration.

Grafting: You have an optional sidebar about not gaining infusions in exchange for gaining grafts (seemingly in case the grafts seem too powerful). As an alternative, you could allow infusions as normal, but make it so that Grafts count against your infusion limit (with their own stricter limit on top of it, and correspondingly higher power).
Gaining a Graft: Generally 5e measures monsters against their Challenge, rather than their Hit Dice like 3.5 did. Other than that, this seems fine, if a little dependent on your DM being forgiving. An ability that allows you to preserve a limited number of grafts would be nice, though perhaps too strong.

The Grafts: I would add an extra line so they read:




> *Graft Name*
> _Graft Type_
> Location:
> Donor Creature:
> Description of the graft and its effects.


The current wording makes it hard to tell whether the Donor is specific or general (for example, the first sentence of Keen Sense makes it seem like you need parts from specific creatures, while the second and fourth suggest that any creature is acceptable provided it has the right trait).

Other than that, I think you have a solid start, though you have your work cut out for you filling the graft list.



*Spoiler: The Atoner Rogue*
Show


I think the features of the class function mechanically, but I have two slight gripes. The first is balance-based. The Atoner can essentially produce karma points indefinitely provided he can Sneak Attack creatures. While this puts a practical limitation on the short term frequency, it also suffers from the "bag of rats" problem. The rate of gain is also a little too high relative to the usability (a 9th level Atoner can cast a 1st level spell basically every other round, or every round if it's a bonus action to cast).

The other gripe is that there's no way to get good karma!

As a more specific note, Karma Chameleon does very little unless your rogue is already some sort of extraplanar entity. In 5e, there aren't any core features that detect alignment, or any at all that I know of other than some artifact weapons not functioning for certain alignments. The second part of it is powerful enough to maybe count as a whole feature by itself, and I guess you could technically use it as written to appear as a celestial being to paladins and spellcasters.



*Spoiler: Fortune Domain*
Show


There are a lot of different mechanics here, so I'm not entirely clear on what is supposed to be the transferrable subsystem. Is it adding extra effects to tool sets? The Wild Card system looks pretty nifty and I could see expanding that, but that's not even a guaranteed feature.

Loaded Dice: I like that the number scales with Proficiency, but the limit per use does not; proficiency scaling is clean but dangerous for multiclassing abuse, this mitigates that significantly.
Dragonchess--Sylph: The range on this is perhaps more limiting than it needs to be for its effect (predictive defenses are hard enough to use already, and this feature does nothing if nothing explodes during that round).

Hallowed Fortune: This isn't Potent Cantrips nor Divine Strike, but it fills the same niche so I'll let it slide (for now).
Sanctified Wild Card: I really like transformation capstones, so this gets a pass in my book. The fact that it refreshes your special mechanics is nice too, because it means that the cleric isn't likely to nova with it early on, creating a more tactical mindset to it.

Overall it looks like a fun domain, but I'm not seeing what the subsystem is supposed to be here.



Anti-mage, Jade Phoenix Magic, and Beast Spirit reviews planned for tomorrow!

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> Reviews!
> 
> *Spoiler: College of Musicians*
> Show
> 
> 
> Frankly, if I had my druthers, magic users would have more varied mechanics. Everyone being Vancian (even pseudo-Vancian) makes the system a lot cleaner, but I love mechanics. 
> 
> This is your Song: the 18th level magical secrets would give this subclass the ability to use two (different) 9th level spells each day. No other class has the ability to cast more than one 9th level spell per day (the Cleric can do so once per week, provided their Divine Intervention roll succeeds or they are level 20, I guess).
> ...


Thanks so much for the feedback!

2 9th level castings is an unexpected interaction, but since you cant pick the same one twice I think double wishes is about the only thing youd really need to look out for at that level. You trade away a lot of oomph for the versatility Works of Art represent. 

About Works, damage type is limited only by amount of passion, its the Conditions like Prone, Poisoned etc that you need to rest before using again. 

While I dont go into it bc its intended to be a system of personal expression, I think of damage types as colors or keys, so while an artist might have a Blue Period (all Cold damage), or an album in Minor E (all Psychic damage), they will change up subjects and technique or instruments and lyrics (the conditions).

----------


## Damon_Tor

> *Spoiler: Way of the Stone Foot*
> Show
> 
> 
> I really like the flavor of this class, and I enjoy the stance mechanics too. I'm a little sad that there's only one stance for it, but I see how another would get in the way of the theme and features. I would add the ability to 
> 
> The individual features all look okay to me, though the focus on grappling ironically seems hindered by the limited mobility, since you can't really drag people around very easily (on the other hand, you can shove whatever you want with a +10 to Str checks once you get Earthroot Chakra and max Wis). Muladhara Binding looks hilarious, just the idea of grabbing guys and chucking them at other guys is a really iconic adventure story thing that 5e really doesn't have a good way to model, until now.
> 
> Incidentally, would you mind if I used the Stance mechanic in an entry of my own? I'm curious about trying to expand it.


The depth of your stance is meant to be a tactical consideration. You'll need depth 4 or 5 to wrestle the tarrasque, but for dragging the enemy archmage back into the anti-magic field that would be overkill. Also, from a balance perspective, consider that monks can do things like dash as a bonus action, so putting some limits on a monk designed to be top-tier grapplers seemed like a good idea; I'm not a stranger to the balance problems that can arise from grappling builds. (EDIT: misremembered my own stance penalty for a minute there)

Yes please, I'm happy to let you use the stance mechanic.  :Smile:

----------


## MoleMage

*Spoiler: Anti-mage wizard*
Show


The use of spell slots for effects other than spells is pretty cool, but I think the real draw here is Arcane Resistance; it would be cool to lean into this new-to-5e "if you have spell slots remaining" mechanic. 

Martial Training: It should probably specify that it also grants light armor proficiency, if we follow traditional wording design. Unless it actually doesn't, in which case it should definitely specify that.
Nullify Magic: This comes three full levels before the actual Counterspell spell, but it's an action instead of a reaction, so it's probably okay. I might make it a Spellcasting Ability Check instead of a Wisdom Saving Throw, though it's probably fine without that change.

Arch Anti-mage: The Surged Strike description should either read "two/three additional attacks" or "you can make three/four total attacks". Right now it seems like you're getting three/four _extra_ attacks. It should also specify whether all attacks get the bonus damage or just one (I assume all of them).

I rather like it. It's an extremely nontraditional use of the wizard base class, but I think you've got enough going on here that a character who builds this way is going to feel like they still have stuff to do, especially when fighting spellcasters (which is the whole point, right?).



*Spoiler: Jade Phoenix Magic*
Show


Oh man, I remember that Martial Adept. It was such a cool adaptation. Good to see it renewed again.

I also want to say how happy I am to see you've made a full-progression class in one mechanic (spellcasting) with a partial-progression subclass in another (Initiating) because pretty much every time I design a new mechanic (I'm up to four, each with at least one full progression class, I think?) I want to do that too. I mentioned on a previous review that I want a version of 5e with more than one power mechanic and hybrid (sub)classes like that would be _key_ to making it really cool.

Looking at it, it looks like this is actually a half-progression instead of one-third progression. That may be a little too much power. It's hard to say for sure without testing it (since you're still battling the action economy and Arcane Escalation burns through your spell slots if you want to initiate strongly), but my gut says one-third would be a more ideal target. 

2nd level is pretty slim by necessity, since you need to fit in the whole new mechanic. Arcane Escalation is an excellent hybridizing feature, exactly what I want to see from this sort of subclass.

6th level: The Greater stance benefits for both of the unique stances are seriously strong, but I also notice that you can't even maintain a Greater stance without burning a slot every turn until 20th level, so I guess it's not unreasonable.

10th level: Quickening Strike worries me a little bit since maneuver dice are essentially a free resource. The other two seem more okay since they don't mess with the as-they-say action economy.

At a few points throughout, you specify some variant of "spells, but not cantrips". There's wording used in a handful of places in the PHB (I know for sure Wild Magic Sorcerer) that says "spell of 1st level or higher". You could also use the slightly wordier "expend a spell slot to cast a spell" if the goal is to make it resource-limited (since Signature Spell exists for Wizards).

Emerald Immolation: It's a better return than most actual uses of a 7th-level spell, but only just. Again I'd have to see it in play to be sure.

Overall, it's faithful to the original mechanic and expands on it logically, but I'm a little worried about its ability to go resource-hog compared to a normal wizard. It has more resources and too many of its features revolve around giving it ways to dump them more quickly. I'd look at some of them and find ways to encourage alternating resources instead (like Empowering/Heightening strike already do). Would definitely play if given the opportunity though.



*Spoiler: Beast Spirit*
Show


It looks like the Subsystem for this one is the pet mechanic used by UA Drakewarden? A solid pick, functional pet mechanics are hard to pull off in 5e for some reason.

Spirit Form: These stats seem really high to me, especially the Armor Class and the 6-level early fly speed (the swim speed restriction is less egregious). If you pick an owl, you've turned a 1 HP creature into a basically-untouchable flying greatsword (owls get Flyby, and with the extra AC and HP you can still shrug off at least a couple ranged attacks).

Animal Spirit: Does this consume a resource? As written you can just resummon this as an action to restore it to full HP at will. I would either make it cost a resource (wild shape or spell slots) or require that you summon it during a rest.

Enhanced Spirit: this is fine. You have a specialized form, now you have a big specialized form.

Spirit Calling: It looks okay (not any stronger than say, Conjure Woodland Beings, other than the lack of concentration), but it should have some more details about how you interact with the extra pets; for example, when I command my Animal Spirit with a bonus action do all of them receive the same command or can each one do something different?

Master of Spirit: I assume the effects of increasing the size of your spirit animal(s) are the same as the effects of Enhanced Spirit (less the magic attacks)? Should probably specify that here.

Overall, I think it's a little too strong. The stats on spirit form are too high, a fully scaled pet on top of that, and the 9 levels of spellcasting with really solid options like Call Lightning all come together to make this feel more like the 3.5 druid's level of power. The idea seems good though.

----------


## Ilerien

> *Spoiler: Jade Phoenix Magic*
> Show
> 
> 
> Oh man, I remember that Martial Adept. It was such a cool adaptation. Good to see it renewed again.
> 
> I also want to say how happy I am to see you've made a full-progression class in one mechanic (spellcasting) with a partial-progression subclass in another (Initiating) because pretty much every time I design a new mechanic (I'm up to four, each with at least one full progression class, I think?) I want to do that too. I mentioned on a previous review that I want a version of 5e with more than one power mechanic and hybrid (sub)classes like that would be _key_ to making it really cool.
> 
> Looking at it, it looks like this is actually a half-progression instead of one-third progression. That may be a little too much power. It's hard to say for sure without testing it (since you're still battling the action economy and Arcane Escalation burns through your spell slots if you want to initiate strongly), but my gut says one-third would be a more ideal target. 
> ...


My sincere gratitude for the review!  :Small Smile: 

Loved this maneuver mechanic at the first sight, tbh :D

Half-progression is indeed a bit strong, but numbers just don't add up if maneuver dice progression is slowed down. There are two core points:the ability to match full Martial Adept initiating power at any level by expending a slot of appropriate level;the ability to maintain a greater stance at 20th level without burning through spell slots, sort of an implicit capstone.
I don't think Quickening Strike is an issue. Consider that you have to 1) have a strike/dash readied, and regaining maneuvers puts additional strain on your action economy; 2) deal damage with it meaning you have to hit with a melee weapon attack except the strike from Desert Wind; 3) divide your limited maneuver dice between the maneuver itself and a spell you want to quicken which still consumes a spell slot in addition to maneuver dice (unless it's a signature spell), or quicken a cantrip which isn't a big deal.

Emerald Immolation is usable once per long rest and is sort of situational: do you really want to nova everything around yourself at the cost of removing yourself from combat for several rounds? It's fairly useful to get rid of annoying poisoned condition with a long duration outside of combat or just heal yourself without expending hit dice.

Wording could use some improvements indeed, I'll make them shortly. :)

----------


## RickAsWritten

> *Spoiler: Anti-mage wizard*
> Show
> 
> 
> The use of spell slots for effects other than spells is pretty cool, but I think the real draw here is Arcane Resistance; it would be cool to lean into this new-to-5e "if you have spell slots remaining" mechanic. 
> 
> Martial Training: It should probably specify that it also grants light armor proficiency, if we follow traditional wording design. Unless it actually doesn't, in which case it should definitely specify that.
> Nullify Magic: This comes three full levels before the actual Counterspell spell, but it's an action instead of a reaction, so it's probably okay. I might make it a Spellcasting Ability Check instead of a Wisdom Saving Throw, though it's probably fine without that change.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback.  Made a bunch of changes based on your suggestions.  See spoiler.
*Spoiler: Changelog*
Show

Added light armor proficiencyChanged Surged Strike and its upgrade to better match existing WoTC wordingAdded several instances of the "while you have spell slots remaining" mechanicChanged the flavor textAdded bonus ability to Signature Spell replacementAdded phrasing to to limit some featsAdded limited 10th level aura to Arcane Resistance.  


And here's a link to the thread since it has become buried on the second page.
D&D Subclass Contest XX: Subsystems Online

----------


## CountDVB

Thanks, @MoleMage. I wasn't sure much on this so I tried using the game-based subsystem of the Wild Card subclass for it.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Stormscar Fighter
> (Using Damon_Tor's stance mechanic)
> _You have faced the storm, and you know its dangers._
> 
> To certain cultures, the weather represents the largest threat to their livelihood, worse even than monsters, bandits, or the drums of war. In those places, the greatest warriors prove themselves by facing down the storm, or the tornado, or the crashing waves of a typhoon. Some special few not only survive, but develop understanding of the storm, and learn to harness the lashing winds or cracking thunder.


Neat! I love this concept, it's very similar conceptually to the storm herald barbarian. I like subclasses that are supernatural without being "spellcasters" and this works well.




> *Stormscar Stances*
> When you first take this archetype at 3rd level, you learn to channel the fury of the storm through two different stances: the Cutting Gale stance and the Crashing Thunder stance. Once on each of your turns, you can choose to enter a stance if you are not already in one, or to deepen your current stance by one level if you are. A stance has a depth of 1 when you enter it and has a maximum depth equal to your Wisdom modifier. Every level of depth in a stance gives different cumulative effects.
> 
> You can end a stance on your turn instead of deepening it. You cannot enter a new stance on the same turn you end it, and each stance has a unique penalty on the turn that you end it.


"You cannot enter a new stance on the same turn you end a stance" is probably a good general rule going forward.

This is a great take on the system, exactly the sort of thing I had in mind.




> Cutting Gale Stance
> The cutting gale surrounds you, protecting you as long as you respect its dangerous winds.
> While in the cutting gale stance, you gain the following effects:
> Your melee slashing weapons can make ranged attacks against targets up to 20 feet away times your depth in this stanceYour armor class against ranged attacks increases by 1As a reaction when attacked in melee, you can cause your attacker to take 1d6 slashing damage per two levels of depth in this stanceIf you move more than half your speed on your turn, you take 1d6 slashing damage per level of depth in this stance, as you outpace the dangerous gale you have formed around yourself.
> 
> When you exit the cutting gale stance, you are blinded until the start of your next turn, as the winds lash at your face.


A more interesting mobility limiter than the one I came up with, I admit. 

I'm a little confused how the ranged attacks are supposed to work: if you're throwing the weapon (and it returning to you) it should say so. There are rules issues which crop up if you aren't using the thrown property: for example, as you have it written, using this ability with a longsword would have to use dexterity instead of strength for the attack and damage roll because it's an aspect of the thrown property that allows a thrown melee weapon to use strength for a ranged attack.

I would write this as "Your slashing melee weapons have the thrown property with a normal range equal to 20 feet times your depth in this stance. The weapons return to your hand after you throw them."




> Crashing Thunder Stance
> You focus your efforts on breaking down a creature through repeated blows. When you attack a creature for the first time while in crashing thunder stance, it becomes your focused target. You may only have one focused target; attacking a different creature causes that creature to become your focused target. Some of this stance's benefits deal with your focused target.
> While in crashing thunder stance, you gain the following effects:
> Your melee weapon attacks deal 1 additional thunder damage to your focused target.You ignore up to 5 feet of difficult terrain each turnYour armor class against attacks made by your focused target is increased by 1 per two levels of depth in this stanceWhen you attack a new creature for the first time, before it becomes your focused target, you deal 1d6 reduced damage to that creature with that attack per level of depth in this stance
> 
> 
> When you exit the crashing thunder stance, all of your weapon attacks deal 1d4 reduced damage until the end of your next turn, as your focused energies dissipate.


Excellent.




> *Stormchaser*
> At 7th level, natural storms do not reduce your or your companions' overland traveling speed, and you never suffer disadvantage on melee or ranged attacks due to high wind or stormy weather.


Pretty niche, but flavorful (and in keeping with the ribbony 7th level features other fighters get). Maybe add to the travel time clause a provision which protects ships you're on board from the negative effects of stormy weather? In my experience it's aboard ships where DMs are most likely to try to use weather to mess with you.




> *Stance Mastery*
> At 10th level, you can enter a new stance on the same turn that you exit a different stance. You cannot re-enter the same stance that you just left using this feature.


I'm not sure how exciting of a feature this is going to be. You're penalized pretty heavily for exiting your stances, so it's not going to be something you're going to want to do very often, and even with this ability you're going to want to pick a stance and stick with it for each encounter whenever possible. Maybe give them the ability to ignore a stance-end penalty 1/short rest or something?




> *Wind Dancer*
> At 15th level, you have a fly speed equal to your land speed plus ten, but you must touch solid ground at least once on each of your turns in order to stay aloft.


A very neat flight ability. Feels similar to the "end your turn on the ground or you fall" versions, but is more useful and elegant.




> *Perfected Stances*
> At 18th level, your maximum depth with all stances increases by 1. In addition, you can choose to increase your depth by 2 or decrease your depth by 1 whenever you could increase the depth of a stance you are in.


Solid capstone.

----------


## Twelvetrees

Loan Shark is up. Ugh, that took me much longer than I thought it would.  :Small Annoyed: 

We'll see if I have any time to make comments on the others before the deadline.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> *Loan Shark*Rogue Subclass
> 
> _You've got so many gifts to share with everyone! They'll have to pay you back with interest, of course, but there's no need to worry about that now. You there! You've always wanted to understand Giant, right? Of course you have! Trade in your athletic ability and start speaking with Storm Giants today! They'll surely want to be your friend and take you on all sorts of journeys as they traverse their ocean homes!_


General overview: this scores highly on my "would you play it" metric. It looks like fun. And I'd love to understand how you see this working from a lore perspective. That said, I have a little trouble seeing how it fits the chosen theme. It's a good system and I like it, but I'm not sure how well it would work for another subclass unless it was just the same concept on a different chassis.

Everything to follow is quibbles.




> *Smooth Talker*
> When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in the Deception skill if you don't already have it. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses that proficiency. Alternatively, you learn two languages of your choice.


I have a hard time with features like these: it feels to me like a rogue playing the conman archetype is already likely to have proficiency and expertise in deception, and in general "more proficiencies and expertises from the rogue list" isn't very exciting. Two languages as a consolation prize feels meh. Of course this isn't your only 3rd level ability, so it's free to be ribbony, but IMO ribbons should be more interesting than slightly expanding existing class features.




> *Loan the Intangible*
> Starting at 3rd level, you gain the ability to lend moments of great capability to others. To do so, you use a bonus action on your turn to choose one willing creature other than yourself within 60 feet of you who can see or hear you. That creature gains one Intangible Loan, the benefit of which you choose from the table below. You can give out Intangible Loans a number of times equal to your Dexterity modifier (a minimum of once). You regain any expended uses when you finish a long rest.
> 
> The chosen creature then owes you one Debt, which you can use to gain a benefit of your choice from the second table. All Debts are removed when you finish a long rest. Using a Debt restores one use of an Intangible Loan.


I feel like this should be tied to cha, not dex. Rogues are already some of the SADest builds, so it bugs me a little when a subclass links magicy stuff to dex.

I would also limit this to humanoids. I feel like there are probably unintended interactions with familiars and other disposables which would be easily circumvented by adding that limit.

[quote]Intangible Loans

The creature's speed increases by 30 feet during its next turn

The creature gains proficiency in Dexterity (Stealth) checks for 1 minute

The creature can speak and understand Thieves' Cant for 1 hour

The creature is invisible for the duration of their next turn

The creature gains temporary hit points equal to your level

The creature can use a bonus action on their turn to teleport, switching places with you

If the creature succeeds on a Charisma check during a social interaction within the next 10 minutes, the creature they are interacting with is charmed by them for 1 hour

The creature can see from any location within 10 feet of their physical location for 1 minute

The creature can speak and understand any language you know for 1 hour

The creature gains proficiency in Wisdom (Insight) checks for 1 minute

The creature gains a climb speed equal to their walking speed for 1 minute

The creature gains darkvision out to a range of 60 feet for 1 hour



These are neat. 

The bonus action teleport needs to say "The creature can use a bonus action on their _next_ turn to teleport" Otherwise the ability is a bit too open ended, and the swap could happen hours later.




> Debts
> 
> When spending hit dice to heal, you can remove one Debt to use the hit dice of the creature that owes you the Debt in addition to your own hit dice, up to a number equal to your Dexterity modifier
> 
> When you make an attack, you can remove one Debt to gain advantage on the attack. The creature whose Debt you removed has disadvantage on their next attack roll
> 
> You can remove one Debt as a bonus action to gain proficiency in one skill the creature whose Debt you removed is proficient in. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses the chosen skill. This proficiency lasts for 1 hour and for the duration, the creature whose Debt you removed loses their proficiency in the skill.
> 
> You can remove one Debt as a reaction when you fail a saving throw against a spell. You are the creature whose Debt you removed teleport, swapping places, and that creature receives the effects of the failed saving throw.
> ...


Also neat

I have some concerns about the efficacy of the teleportation: the debt can be called in hours later, so I feel like there needs to be some kind of distance limitation to prevent this from being used as an extremely efficient means of travel (especially when combined with a familiar who can carry the debt). There are also major issues with this ability and the capstone (see below) that a distance limitation would mitigate.




> *Debts Must Be Paid*
> At 9th level, you gain another use for the Debts you are owed. If you are owed at least one Debt, when you are reduced to 0 hit points you can drop to 1 hit point instead. Choose one of the creatures that owes you a Debt and remove one Debt from them. That creature then takes all of the damage you would have taken in excess of the damage that reduced you to 1 hit point.


I like it.




> *Offer Many Loans*
> At 13th level, when you use Loan the Intangible, you can choose two willing creatures within 60 feet of you and can choose different benefits for both. As normal, both creatures will owe you a Debt.


I'm not sure if this doubles the number of loans you can make in a day. If so, it seems rather strong. If not, it seems rather weak.




> *Sell to Anyone*
> When you reach 17th level, the creatures you target with Loan the Intangible no longer have to be willing targets.


Yeah, that's going to need some kind of a check and balance. Because this gives you the ability to (as one example) teleport someone into a volcano miles away while forcing them to fail a save vs your wizard friend's spell of choice hours after you meet them and from miles away and without a save.

IMO, give them a wis save against 8+cha+prof when you attempt to use it against an unwilling target.

----------


## sengmeng

Well, I made some last minute adjustments to the Atoner rogue. The bag of rats problem is sort of solved: you can't gain more than the hitpoints the target had before the sneak attack, and also it has to drop the enemy to zero, and you still gain no more than half your sneak attack damage. You can also gain good karma now, and some subclass features only function while your karma is bad, and others only while it is good. Good luck on final revisions!

----------


## MoleMage

> Neat! I love this concept, it's very similar conceptually to the storm herald barbarian. I like subclasses that are supernatural without being "spellcasters" and this works well.
> 
> 
> 
> "You cannot enter a new stance on the same turn you end a stance" is probably a good general rule going forward.
> 
> This is a great take on the system, exactly the sort of thing I had in mind.
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback!

I added some clumsy wording on the ranged attacks. I was imagining slicing wind blades being launched by the weapon when I originally wrote it, but they should be possible with Strength or Dexterity. Added the "ignore exit penalty" clause to Stance Mastery and Stormchaser now also applies while traveling on a ship.

----------


## MoleMage

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...6#post24909996

Voting time is upon us! Go cast your votes!

----------


## nickl_2000

> https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...6#post24909996
> 
> Voting time is upon us! Go cast your votes!


Looking forward to looking over everyone's entries.  It will be a fresh look through of everything.  I will try and get a vote out tomorrow.

----------


## Twelvetrees

> General overview: this scores highly on my "would you play it" metric. It looks like fun. And I'd love to understand how you see this working from a lore perspective. That said, I have a little trouble seeing how it fits the chosen theme. It's a good system and I like it, but I'm not sure how well it would work for another subclass unless it was just the same concept on a different chassis.


Thanks for the comments.  :Small Smile: 

My original intention had been for Intangible Loans to allow for the loaning of class features, but that idea slipped away from me by the time I had finished it. You're completely right about the capstone. If I had more time before the deadline I would have liked to revise some of the effects.

----------


## RickAsWritten

Don't forget to de your civic duty everyone.  Only a few days until the contest closes.  

And a reminder: you don't have to have made an entry to vote (or give feedback in this thread).  We are a chill and open community, and are happy to help anyone that wants to jump into the (highly)addicting world of homebrewing, or to improve their homebrewing skills.

----------


## CountDVB

> Don't forget to de your civic duty everyone.  Only a few days until the contest closes.  
> 
> And a reminder: you don't have to have made an entry to vote (or give feedback in this thread).  We are a chill and open community, and are happy to help anyone that wants to jump into the (highly)addicting world of homebrewing, or to improve their homebrewing skills.


I wonder how many people aren't aware of that...

----------


## Ilerien

> And a reminder: you don't have to have made an entry to vote (or give feedback in this thread).  We are a chill and open community, and are happy to help anyone that wants to jump into the (highly)addicting world of homebrewing, or to improve their homebrewing skills.


It's indeed kinda sad to see there are many people interested in homebrew (judging by this subforum activity), but not participating in voting.  :Small Frown:

----------


## MoleMage

> Alright votes are tallied up, and the point differences were narrow this time, with only one point here or there making the difference!
> 
> Our third place winner, with 7 points earned, we have *Twelvetrees's Loan Shark Rogue*! Share intangible abilities, then call the loan due at the right time!
> 
> In second place, with 8 points earned, we have *MoleMage's Stormscar Fighter*. Slashing winds and crashing thunder are your weapons, but be careful because they can hurt you too if misused!
> 
> In first place, with 9 points earned (all of them top pick points), we have *Damon_Tor's Way of the Stone Foot*. Suplex a dragon! Become very heavy, but remember that anchoring yourself to the ground can work against you.
> 
> The next contest was set in digital stone already, and I put the thread up earlier. Check out Contest XXI: I Read this in a Book Once II!


Voting has concluded and the new contest is up! I look forward to seeing what sorts of borrowed media we end up with this time.

----------


## Damon_Tor

Well, knowing the theme ahead of time, I've been working on this for weeks already, so the Path of the Titan is ready for critique.

----------


## nickl_2000

> It's indeed kinda sad to see there are many people interested in homebrew (judging by this subforum activity), but not participating in voting.


It's pretty typical, although there was a higher bar on reviewing and voting in this contest than there has been in other ones.  Since several of them were utilizing things from other homebrew classes and subclasses you needed to read more than just the entry, but also the things that the entry is coming from.  That is what got in the way for me when I looked at voting.  So, I put it off thinking I would do it later.  Well it's later and I missed voting completely.

----------


## nickl_2000

Wow I have absolutely no idea why I'm struggling to get excited about an idea.  I've had several ones where I've got "ohhh, I like that" oh it's already been done by the Inquisitive Rogue or Beast Barbarian or something else.

----------


## CountDVB

I have two ideas for this. One is a serious one, the other... I do not allow if I am allowed to do it, though part of me still wants to do so for the chutzpah of it. 

Who should I ask if I should try or should I go and make it anyway?

----------


## nickl_2000

> I have two ideas for this. One is a serious one, the other... I do not allow if I am allowed to do it, though part of me still wants to do so for the chutzpah of it. 
> 
> Who should I ask if I should try or should I go and make it anyway?


PM/DM/ Whatever Message MoleMage.

----------


## CountDVB

Went with my first idea, enjoy! Cue the awesome intro!

----------


## Phhase

Kept you waiting, huh? Pyromaniac Sorcerer is up! Feedback!

*Spoiler: Oversized Fantasy Weapon Barbarian*
Show


Titan's Grip - I love the support for dual wielding heavy weapons, but maybe categorize by the two-handed property rather than the damage dice? If you can dual wield lances unmounted, why not glaives? Also love the support for weapon summon abilities. I just in general love when subclasses take abilities outside of immediate context into proper consideration.

Argaen Forge - It seems a little odd to have an entire level dedicated to giving yourself the ability to access your class's required tools. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE this - it's great to have the option to simply upgrade what you have rather than having to go bargain hunting for _exactly_ what you need. But the second clause has me a little confused. The ability to do a full week's labor in a day, with no limiters except an exhaustion point? If it's as universally applicable as it sounds, then that means with a few artificer levels, you have a magic item manufactorium with an absolutely _massive_ 7x speed boost. I like the sound of it - just be sure you're ok with having a universal 7x crafting speed boost on demand.


Destroyer - Hm. The feature is fine, it just highlights for me that it seems odd that you're normally completely unable to attack at all with a large weapon while not raging. This feature also gives no combat bonuses, so be sure you're ok with the only combat capabilities granted over _ten levels_ being a few more damage dice with a weapon that is only situationally even usable, and even then with an attack penalty.

Titanic Mastery - Seems odd that this is the capstone rather than the first benefit. Other than that, they look like fun options. Does Titan Sweep make you attack EVERY creature in your reach, including allies? And it seems odd to me that one would consider the cover granted by enemies in the way when throwing a massive weapon at all, and the kill clause is also very situational. Instead, consider forcing each creature hit to make a Strength save or be shoved into an adjacent square by the impact. If a creature makes their save, the attack against the next creature in the line is at -1 (stacking as one goes).

Have your read the Path of Unshackled Steel barbarian subclass? It does something very, very similar to this, but approaches it from a different angle. It does some things better, and other things worse, I recommend reading it if you haven't already.



*Spoiler: Library Sciences Bard*
Show



Collection of tomes - love the support for options like Mage Hand. I also find the flavor of always having a relevant book immediately on hand, no matter the subject, to be absolutely hilarious (whips out book of 101 pickup lines).

Loose Character - Cool idea! I'm just a bit confused by the death clause, are these magical constructs, or actual people? And how long do they last? Do they require upkeep? Permanent seems a bit odd.

Heroism and villany - What's the difference between protag and antag?

Worlds Collide - Interesting...

Despite getting the gist of the afterword, I am still of the opinion that it's far too powerful for me to play without feeling guilty about it. Also - couldn't you just write your own little original stories in-universe to have exactly what you need at all times? It feels a little...wrong to just create so much, including life, ex nihilo like this.



*Spoiler: Draconic Elementalist*
Show


Dragon link - Looks good

Draconic Element - Given the existence of gem dragons, you could consider adding sonic, radiant, necrotic, and force as well. The absorption and immunity clauses are a bit strong - could you cast a spell that deals that damage type on yourself to heal/megabuff yourself? Consider Tasha's caustic brew healing you every round for 1 minute. Also, "advantage on casting spells" isn't a thing, but advantage on spell attack rolls is - although I think it's hardly necessary at all, considering everything else. Especially since you could use Scribes Wizard or metamagic to change the element of a spell to conform to your specialty.

Dragon's roar - The sorcery point empowerment clause is very weak (4 points is a steep cost for a measly increase), in contrast to the rest of the feature which I contest is extremely strong. Never underestimate flat damage. Although I'm not sure about spending a sorcery point for this. What if it was proficiency/long rest?

Claws of the elements - Typo: in *tune, not in turn. This is a cool idea for a feature, but the fact that it costs a sorcery point AND concentration AND means you are making a melee attack instead of casting a spell that would probably do more damage, meaning you're a squishy in range of big damage, means that despite the flat damage making it potentially quite strong, especially if combined with Haste or Flurry of Blows, it's really not worth using in my opinion.

Dragon Force - I see what you did there. "Become as if a dragon"? As if a dragon what? Otherwise, seems fine, mostly.

All in all, despite a few wonky balance points to tweak, looks like a cohesive entry! Nice work.

----------


## CountDVB

> *Spoiler: Draconic Elementalist*
> Show
> 
> 
> Dragon link - Looks good
> 
> Draconic Element - Given the existence of gem dragons, you could consider adding sonic, radiant, necrotic, and force as well. The absorption and immunity clauses are a bit strong - could you cast a spell that deals that damage type on yourself to heal/megabuff yourself? Consider Tasha's caustic brew healing you every round for 1 minute. Also, "advantage on casting spells" isn't a thing, but advantage on spell attack rolls is - although I think it's hardly necessary at all, considering everything else. Especially since you could use Scribes Wizard or metamagic to change the element of a spell to conform to your specialty.
> 
> Dragon's roar - The sorcery point empowerment clause is very weak (4 points is a steep cost for a measly increase), in contrast to the rest of the feature which I contest is extremely strong. Never underestimate flat damage. Although I'm not sure about spending a sorcery point for this. What if it was proficiency/long rest?
> ...


Draconic Element- Gem Dragons I know are in 3e but not really 5e (that I know of except Sapphire dragon) and I was going off of base stuff, hence the notes added about the additional dragon typing and so on I added to there. And them eating the element is a main point of the inspiration. Like, that's one of the core facets, so making it into a spell or something kinda weakens it.

Though I should note that you cannot use your own spell for the feature. Plus if you're unconscious or so on, you can't use this feature.

Dragon's Roar- I might have miscommunicated that. Let's say you use the feature at 20th level. It would normally do 40 damage. However, for each sorcery point you use, it would go up by half your level, so in this, an additional 10 damage. It's just that you have a cap of 4 sorcery points (a total of 5 sorcery points spent) or 40 additional damage for a total of 80 damage on a successful hit or 40 on a partial hit. The extra sorcery points means you're putting extra oomph in it.

Claws of the Elements- Hmmm.... good point. How about needing a bonus action to activate and remaining active for 1 minute before needing to once more?

Dragon Force- It's not a reference to the band XD. It's what the mode is called.And as for what "as if a dragon" was just me trying to dramatically say being as strong as a dragon.

----------


## CountDVB

> Kept you waiting, huh? Pyromaniac Sorcerer is up!


I love it! It looks like alot of fun though I do think you could do something with cold. Maybe you're burning all the heat from them or something with Coldfire or maybe they suffer a temperatue shock explosion from the sudden conversion of hot to cold?

I am surprised you don't have a feature involving the Pyro's Airblast.

----------


## Phhase

> Draconic Element- Gem Dragons I know are in 3e but not really 5e (that I know of except Sapphire dragon) and I was going off of base stuff


That's fair, I just personally like paying homage to cool things from 3.x that were massacred in the transition to 5e (Which is a great many things).



> Dragon's Roar- I might have miscommunicated that. Let's say you use the feature at 20th level. It would normally do 40 damage. However, for each sorcery point you use, it would go up by half your level, so in this, an additional 10 damage. It's just that you have a cap of 4 sorcery points (a total of 5 sorcery points spent) or 40 additional damage for a total of 80 damage on a successful hit or 40 on a partial hit. The extra sorcery points means you're putting extra oomph in it.


Oh, I see, I see. Still not quite convinced, though. Is adding 10 (potentially 5) damage to this attack really worth more than, say, twinning Finger of Death? Between the activation point and the boosting (especially considering you have to max level to get 10 damage per extra point) I'm not convinced that metamagic isn't just better.



> Claws of the Elements- Hmmm.... good point. How about needing a bonus action to activate and remaining active for 1 minute before needing to once more?



That helps, but it doesn't fix the fact that everything else a 14th level sorcerer can do is a better idea than making a single melee attack. I get that it fits thematically, and I like the idea, but in this form with no support, it's literally a trap. What if instead of an attack enhancer, it was a burst-style ability? Instead of empowering future attacks that you make, use your action to make an Ora-ora style punch rush of empowered attacks immediately, useable x times per y and either a clause to spend sorcery points to use it again when you have no uses or a clause to spend sorcery points to boost the effect when you do use it. Here, how about this:

At 14th level, you can unleash your draconic might in a blur of furious barehanded attacks. As an action while not wielding a weapon or shield, move up to 30ft without provoking attacks of opportunity. Then, make up to 5 melee attacks, split in any fashion against creatures within your reach. These attacks are unarmed strikes, and you are considered proficient with them for this purpose. Each attack is magical and deals 1d4  + your Strength bonus in bludgeoning damage and your Charisma bonus in the associated elemental damage. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your proficiency score per long rest. If you have no uses remaining, you can spend 3 sorcery points to use it again.




> I love it! It looks like alot of fun though I do think you could do something with cold. Maybe you're burning all the heat from them or something with Coldfire or maybe they suffer a temperatue shock explosion from the sudden conversion of hot to cold?
> 
> I am surprised you don't have a feature involving the Pyro's Airblast.


Thanks! The issue with cold is it would be weird to be dealing damage that was both fire and cold at the same time. It's not that you have the option to change damage type, it's that all of your damage is now dual-typed. Meh. Just me I guess. 

Airblast is a good idea, but there are spells like Thunderwave for knockback, and reflecting projectiles is kinda a monk thing already, not to mention weird to fit into a sorcerer's action economy. And reflecting spells is crazy powerful. I prefer the Axtinguisher finishing move, trading the consistent fire damage for a powerful burst that has the potential to finish them, but relies on you hitting a weapon attack.

----------


## CountDVB

> That's fair, I just personally like paying homage to cool things from 3.x that were massacred in the transition to 5e (Which is a great many things).
> 
> Oh, I see, I see. Still not quite convinced, though. Is adding 10 (potentially 5) damage to this attack really worth more than, say, twinning Finger of Death? Between the activation point and the boosting (especially considering you have to max level to get 10 damage per extra point) I'm not convinced that metamagic isn't just better.
> 
> That helps, but it doesn't fix the fact that everything else a 14th level sorcerer can do is a better idea than making a single melee attack. I get that it fits thematically, and I like the idea, but in this form with no support, it's literally a trap. What if instead of an attack enhancer, it was a burst-style ability? Instead of empowering future attacks that you make, use your action to make an Ora-ora style punch rush of empowered attacks immediately, useable x times per y and either a clause to spend sorcery points to use it again when you have no uses or a clause to spend sorcery points to boost the effect when you do use it. Here, how about this:
> 
> At 14th level, you can unleash your draconic might in a blur of furious barehanded attacks. As an action while not wielding a weapon or shield, move up to 30ft without provoking attacks of opportunity. Then, make up to 5 melee attacks, split in any fashion against creatures within your reach. These attacks are unarmed strikes, and you are considered proficient with them for this purpose. Each attack is magical and deals 1d4  + your Strength bonus in bludgeoning damage and your Charisma bonus in the associated elemental damage. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your proficiency score per long rest. If you have no uses remaining, you can spend 3 sorcery points to use it again.
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I miss the Gem Dragons too. Heck, if we have the sapphire ones, bring everyone else back in. 

Fair point on Dragon's Roar there. I'll see what I can figure out.

I actually really like that idea! I'll tweak it a bit (I think you're always proficient in unarmed strikes regardless), but I very much like it (especially since it could be an homage to a scene from the inspiration, when Natsu fought another Dragon slayer for the first time). Thank you very much!

With Airblast, i was more thinking for things like being able to shove friends out of the way from a distance, putting out fires (after all, you gotta put out that amateur stuff/clean up the mess) and maybe the projectile reflection.

----------


## Ilerien

By the way, is nominating a ported prestige class from D&D 3.5 stretching it?


> The class must fit the theme of the contest. For our twenty-first contest, we are revisiting an old theme: Other Media. It doesn't have to be books; movies, music, TV shows, comics, video games, tall tales, mythological figures, *even tabletop games that aren't 5e DD&D* are all on the table.


I have a couple of adaptations I consider quite good that have never been shown to general public (yes, I'm a shameless hoarder of homebrew :D) and a brand new beast I adapted from Dragon Age games specifically for the contest before the thread was created with older editions of D&D allowed (to my genuine surprise!  :Small Smile: ).

----------


## CountDVB

I updated Draconic Elementalist to 1.2 with the feedback from some more thinking and especially inspiration from Phhase.

----------


## nickl_2000

First draft of the Artificer, Battling Bowman is out there and ready for review.  I will try and get reviews done tomorrow or monday!

----------


## CountDVB

> First draft of the Artificer, Battling Bowman is out there and ready for review.  I will try and get reviews done tomorrow or monday!


I spotted a good chunk of those references XD

Also, Antler Arrow fit in because that Quiver is at least 25% Bag of Holding. 

Bowman definitely looks pretty good though I am wondering how well it syncs up with the other Infusions and so on.

----------


## nickl_2000

And here we go again :)

*Spoiler: Barbarian: Path of the Titan*
Show



Don't forget Cloud and Sephiroth as examples from another genre, although you don't need more support for why this is here, you have plenty.

*Titan's Grip* - I do have some more questions about "large weapons."  Do they lose other properties?  What is considered finesse for dex attacks or heavy for GWM?  Also, as it is right now, you are allowed large bows and crossbows.  Is that okay with you?

*Argean Forge* - I consider this a fluff ability personally.  It's cool thematically and theatrically, but really only makes a difference in the character once they pick up a magical weapon (and I imagine that any DM allowing this class would allow you to find mundane large weapons fairly easily).  I feel like level 6 needs something else, maybe an extra skill proficiency or something like that.

*Destroyer* - Again, this is a cool ability but still pretty fluffy.  I am not sure about your games, but the attacking on object doesn't happen all that often that an extra levels worth of skills should be devoted to it.  I'm not sure what would fit in here best, but you need another minor or circumstantial ability to make level 10 feel worthwhile getting to.

*Titan Sweep* - This is a brutal ability, especially with a reach weapon (and a Bugbear).  Sure it's somewhat edge case, but a Bugbear with an oversized reach weapon can make an attack with the weapon against all creatures and objects in a 15 foot radius.  That has potential to be a lot of creatures and a lot of damage each round.

For the level 14 ability, I don't see myself using anything other than Titan Sweep and Titanic Toss.  The other two abilities are good, but nothing compared to the effectiveness of those two in normal situations.

As a side note in your Q&A, as a Giant Ape you don't know how to wield weapons.  So, it would be cool but still not that effective.

Overall, I think you have a really cool subclass here, it fits well into the Manga/Comic/Video Game/movie trope and fits the theme really well.  As I mentioned in the comments, you have a few levels that are pretty dead and should be boosted.





*Spoiler: Bardic College: Library Sciences*
Show



A little bit of bolding would make things a lot easier to read :)

*Collection of Tomes* - Clarification, is this any ability check that utilizes Wis, Int, or Cha or a direct check against Wis, Int, or Cha?  This makes a significant difference since otherwise you are effectively giving expertise on more than half the skills (something terribly broken).

*Loose Characters* - This is an interesting feature, how do you get rid of someone you summoned?  How long do they stay summoned?

As a side note, it is unusual that you don't have a use of bardic inspiration usage at level 3

*Worlds Collide* - How long does this last?  What is stopping you from summoning an area in the center of a volcano and sticking people in there?

You have a good theme going here, but I think it needs to be more fleshed out.  More of the how longs and more clarification on what you can exactly do. 





*Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Draconic Elementalist*
Show



*Draconic Element* - The damage absorption is a problem here that it allows you to gain HP.  If you gain HP through fire and an ally has control flames, create bonfire, or any other cantrip that does fire damage you will never not be at full HP.  The better way to do this would be to give THP all the time (no matter how many HP you have).  Since current THP are replaced with new THP it helps.

-Lightning - How many lightning attack paralyze?  I can't think of any off the top of my head.

*Elemental Dragons Roar* - I'm not saying it's wrong, but it is odd that you don't have variable damage in this at all.  Straight damage is not used all that ften.

*Dracoelemental Body* - So you AC is now 13+Dex+Cha?  Seems like that will end up being pretty high for a sorcerer (as in a minimum of 18 AC in a caster class).  Other than the AC change, this seems fine to me.

*Dragon Force* - This seems fine to me.

There is some overlap with the Draconic Sorcerer, but there is enough of a difference that they feel unique.





*Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin Pyromaniac*
Show



Okay, I really like this class, but I think there are a few possible power problems.  For one thing, once you hit level 18 you can completely disable pretty much anyone anytime.  Each turn you can cast a Flame Missile (magic missile -> fire) and light someone on fire.  Since magic missile cannot miss and there is no save against the level 18 ability I can turn 3 people blind every turn with a first level spell.  Then, they either stay blind of waste an action suppressing the flames.  You have the ability to completely shut a lot of people down with a 1st level spell.  

Hungry Plasma seems like the same thing since a -1 to attack and -1 to AC at the start of each round (especially since they can't stop it before the start of each round).  All enemies with weapons and armor will lose it on round 5/6 pretty much all the time.

The other issue I see with this class is that all spells at level 1 deal fire damage and it is completely out of your control  So, if you run into something immune to fire before level 18, you literally cannot do damage to it and the Elemental Adept (Fire) feat is basically a feat tax for you.





Caught up for now, as soon as I see more entries I will try and do more reviews :)






> I spotted a good chunk of those references XD
> 
> Also, Antler Arrow fit in because that Quiver is at least 25% Bag of Holding. 
> 
> Bowman definitely looks pretty good though I am wondering how well it syncs up with the other Infusions and so on.



I took a look at the infusions and don't see anything that will be a substantial problem.  The +1 weapon and elemental weapon will help boost damage overall, but not that much really and this is available to everyone.  Returning weapon will allows you to use a thrown weapon instead of a bow for this, which makes the subclass fit more overall genres and types.  There are things in there that will certainly help this subclass, but nothing that I look and say "this would be amazingly broken"

----------


## Phhase

> *Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin Pyromaniac*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, I really like this class, but I think there are a few possible power problems.  For one thing, once you hit level 18 you can completely disable pretty much anyone anytime.  Each turn you can cast a Flame Missile (magic missile -> fire) and light someone on fire.  Since magic missile cannot miss and there is no save against the level 18 ability I can turn 3 people blind every turn with a first level spell.  Then, they either stay blind of waste an action suppressing the flames.  You have the ability to completely shut a lot of people down with a 1st level spell.  
> 
> Hungry Plasma seems like the same thing since a -1 to attack and -1 to AC at the start of each round (especially since they can't stop it before the start of each round).  All enemies with weapons and armor will lose it on round 5/6 pretty much all the time.
> 
> The other issue I see with this class is that all spells at level 1 deal fire damage and it is completely out of your control  So, if you run into something immune to fire before level 18, you literally cannot do damage to it and the Elemental Adept (Fire) feat is basically a feat tax for you.


Your point on Hungry Plasma is salient, and I thing I just might make burn damage at the end of turns rather than the beginning. And possibly consider further changes to it after.

Note that blindness doesn't completely shut down all enemies. Enemies that posses blindsight, are immune to being blinded, or that have AOE attacks can still Do Things that aren't extinguish themselves. And if worst comes to worst, if you're in attack range and haven't moved from your tile since last turn, they can still make normal attack rolls at disadvantage on you (assuming that it's an ability that doesn't have a "That you can see" clause). Also note that allies or minor sidekicks/minions can extinguish for them, allowing them to ready their action for when they can see again.

While Magic Missile _is_ powerful in this scenario, it's probably not the most powerful thing that any standard 18th level sorcerer can do.

The "fixed damage type" being a bit of a gimp is intended. The burn effects and the autocrit pseudosmite are VERY strong with the right multiclassing (For example, sneak attack, or Eldritch Smite), so having it keyed off of an inferior damage type is the drawback. And remember, just because they don't take the damage doesn't mean you can't set them on fire, and then Slice the Wick. Hell, some enemies like Fire Elementals probably qualify as Permanently On Fire right from the getgo, opening up Wick Slicing with no setup!

Also, just realized: There's technically no language that prohibits you from changing the damage type of a spell using metamagic! That might help.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> And here we go again :)
> 
> *Spoiler: Bardic College: Library Sciences*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> A little bit of bolding would make things a lot easier to read :)
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback.  You aren't creating life, it's more like conjuring someone from an alternate reality.  You can get rid of your summons the same ways you can get rid of anyone you don't like, kick to curb and/or murder.  I guess you can also summon new people until the one you want gone loses their charmed status and wanders off.  Then you're just giving the DM a plot where one of your cast offs Kill Bills you.

This feature was supposed to require bardic inspiration, but because of its relative strength I decided scaling on proficiency was less likely to lead to abuse.

Collection of Tomes was supposed to be expertise on skills you're already proficient in and proficiency in a mental/social ones (a modest benefit given jack of all trades is already giving you half that bonus and only provided you pull out a book (which you might not have access to if you're a hostage, etc.  The book would require a free hand, the object interaction to draw, etc, so it's not unlimited use even if there's no cap on its use).

Worlds Collide in a volcano would just wreck an area of the lava as described. If you summon it above the lava and let it drop in I'd think the DM would be well within their rights to say it sinks or breaks apart on impact and rendered to slag

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Titan's Grip - I love the support for dual wielding heavy weapons, but maybe categorize by the two-handed property rather than the damage dice? If you can dual wield lances unmounted, why not glaives? Also love the support for weapon summon abilities. I just in general love when subclasses take abilities outside of immediate context into proper consideration.


I don't actually consider the interchangeability of similar weapons a new rule, but rather an extension of the way the "improvised weapon" rules allow an object which is similar to a given weapon to be used as that weapon: this is why it's in a sidebar. A greatsword is similar enough to a large short sword to make use of this rule. So to be clear, you aren't dual wielding lances, you are treating two lances as improvised large spears. The problem with a similar exchange for glaives is that there are no small, one-handed polearms, though you could have a very similar build by dual wielding large whips (2d4 is near enough to 1d10)




> Argaen Forge - It seems a little odd to have an entire level dedicated to giving yourself the ability to access your class's required tools. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE this - it's great to have the option to simply upgrade what you have rather than having to go bargain hunting for _exactly_ what you need.


I don't see it as any different from classes/subclasses that have "your attacks with X count as magical". It fills a need, but isn't very exciting.




> But the second clause has me a little confused. The ability to do a full week's labor in a day, with no limiters except an exhaustion point? If it's as universally applicable as it sounds, then that means with a few artificer levels, you have a magic item manufactorium with an absolutely _massive_ 7x speed boost. I like the sound of it - just be sure you're ok with having a universal 7x crafting speed boost on demand.


I don't have balance concerns about this: by the time this combo would come online casters (and full-classed artificers) will already have fabricate.




> Destroyer - Hm. The feature is fine, it just highlights for me that it seems odd that you're normally completely unable to attack at all with a large weapon while not raging.


That's true. All barbarian subclasses focus on rage, and any combat abilities they gain from the subclass are tied to the rage mechanic. As far as I know there aren't any exceptions to this, so this barbarian lacking access to their subclass feature outside of rage isn't a unique limitation.




> This feature also gives no combat bonuses, so be sure you're ok with the only combat capabilities granted over _ten levels_ being a few more damage dice with a weapon that is only situationally even usable, and even then with an attack penalty.


I think of this ability is an invitation for violent creativity with destructible terrain elements, which I think would be fun as heck, in or out of combat. One of my favorite spells right now is shatter for exactly this reason, it's great to be able to blow the floor out from under someone's feet or drop a tree on someone.

Further, I've always thought of the Path of the Totem as one of the best designed barbarian subclasses, and it also features out-of-combat abilities at 6th and 10th levels. But I'll reconsider. Maybe some defensive benefit while fighting larger opponents?




> Titanic Mastery - Seems odd that this is the capstone rather than the first benefit. Other than that, they look like fun options. Does Titan Sweep make you attack EVERY creature in your reach, including allies?


Yes. It also attacks objects. I recommend you don't use it around load-bearing walls. Or do.




> And it seems odd to me that one would consider the cover granted by enemies in the way when throwing a massive weapon at all, and the kill clause is also very situational. Instead, consider forcing each creature hit to make a Strength save or be shoved into an adjacent square by the impact. If a creature makes their save, the attack against the next creature in the line is at -1 (stacking as one goes).


Mostly the kill clause for cover ignorance is for _objects_ providing cover (even total cover), creating synergy with the Destroyer feature. I feel like making every creature roll a save on top of every attack roll could be a lot of rolls in one turn, especially since the ability can be used a whole lot, every turn while raging.




> Have your read the Path of Unshackled Steel barbarian subclass? It does something very, very similar to this, but approaches it from a different angle. It does some things better, and other things worse, I recommend reading it if you haven't already.


I'll check it out, thanks.





> Don't forget Cloud and Sephiroth as examples from another genre, although you don't need more support for why this is here, you have plenty.


I did make note of Cloud when discussing examples, but I didn't provide an illustration.




> *Titan's Grip* - I do have some more questions about "large weapons."  Do they lose other properties?  What is considered finesse for dex attacks or heavy for GWM?  Also, as it is right now, you are allowed large bows and crossbows.  Is that okay with you?


A greatsword you are treating as a large shortsword has all the properties of a shortsword and none of the properties of a greatsword: it is light and finesse, it is not two-handed nor heavy. The ability _is_ limited to melee weapons: "starting at third level, you can wield melee weapons made for large creatures (hereafter simply called "large weapons") while raging."




> *Argean Forge* - I consider this a fluff ability personally.  It's cool thematically and theatrically, but really only makes a difference in the character once they pick up a magical weapon (and I imagine that any DM allowing this class would allow you to find mundane large weapons fairly easily).  I feel like level 6 needs something else, maybe an extra skill proficiency or something like that.


Well it does give you a tool proficiency, as well as the work-week-in-a-day ability. Out-of-combat benefits to be sure, but I think they're better benefits than things like Spirit Walker or Consult the Spirits.

*Destroyer* - Again, this is a cool ability but still pretty fluffy.  I am not sure about your games, but the attacking on object doesn't happen all that often that an extra levels worth of skills should be devoted to it.  I'm not sure what would fit in here best, but you need another minor or circumstantial ability to make level 10 feel worthwhile getting to.[/quote]

Maybe I'm blessed with more creative players than most, because my table attacks/casts spells at environmental elements all the time. That said, you're the second person to bring up this objection, so I'll rethink the way the class is set up.

*Titan Sweep* - This is a brutal ability, especially with a reach weapon (and a Bugbear).  Sure it's somewhat edge case, but a Bugbear with an oversized reach weapon can make an attack with the weapon against all creatures and objects in a 15 foot radius.  That has potential to be a lot of creatures and a lot of damage each round.[/quote]

Sounds great to me.




> For the level 14 ability, I don't see myself using anything other than Titan Sweep and Titanic Toss.  The other two abilities are good, but nothing compared to the effectiveness of those two in normal situations.


That's fine, I feel like there's room for several play styles here. And bugbears are explicitly one of the races I would like to see attracted to this class, so I'm pleased there's synergy.




> As a side note in your Q&A, as a Giant Ape you don't know how to wield weapons.  So, it would be cool but still not that effective.


Sure, you'd lose your proficiency, and the Giant Ape's fists already do 3d10 damage (with a 2x multiattack) so yes you're right it wouldn't be a very good tactic.




> Overall, I think you have a really cool subclass here, it fits well into the Manga/Comic/Video Game/movie trope and fits the theme really well.  As I mentioned in the comments, you have a few levels that are pretty dead and should be boosted.


Right now I'm thinking about scrapping Argean Forge, moving Destroyer up to 6th level, then putting in a defensive ability in at 10th, probably something to help you tank hits from larger opponents, but I don't really know exactly what form that ability will take yet.

----------


## CountDVB

> And here we go again :)
> 
> *Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Draconic Elementalist*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Draconic Element* - The damage absorption is a problem here that it allows you to gain HP.  If you gain HP through fire and an ally has control flames, create bonfire, or any other cantrip that does fire damage you will never not be at full HP.  The better way to do this would be to give THP all the time (no matter how many HP you have).  Since current THP are replaced with new THP it helps.
> 
> ...


Well, they are based on Dragon magic, which is probably why, but well, couldn't resist given how much Fairy Tail is. 

I like the temporary HP idea so I'll use that.

As for the for the lightning attack thing, well I can't think of anything else right now so I'd appreciate some suggestions.

Straight damage I figured could be for some fun

I thought base unarmored AC was 10? so with Dracoelemental body, your new unarmored base AC would be 10 + Dex modifier + Charisma modifier

Thank you very much

----------


## Lvl45DM!

Honestly I was torn between doing a Dunedain Ranger from Lord of The Rings or a Knight of the Round Table from Holy Grail. 

But I take my DnD seriously I guess. And Rangers dont get enough love.

So allow me to present my rough-as Conclave of the Dunedain.

----------


## nickl_2000

More entries?  More reviews

*Spoiler: Primal Path: Path of the Reaver*
Show



Alright, I saw path of the Reaver and immediately went to a different place than Dragonage.   :Small Big Grin: 

*Blood Frenzy* - The interesting thing on this is that it encourages the barbarian to be sword and board rather than a GWM barbarian.  I'm actually glad to see that as a S&B style player (since you resist less damage it it better to not get hit as much).  This class really does want you to be doing critical damage, with the extra die that will make a 19 very exciting.

*Devour* - This is a bit of a bookkeeping nightmare for the player/DM.  For any particular creature the player kills, they will need to keep track of the CR and all the saves for this creature.  I don't see the CR as a big deal really, but the saves are a little bit more of a struggle (especially if the DM doesn't want to give the players the saves on a particular creature since they will be running into more of them in the future).  It may be simpler for saves to give advantage on the saving throws rather than use the consumed creatures saves instead.  Although now that I read it again, the CR thing isn't a big deal because it only lasts until the end of your next turn.

"A creature whose essence was devoured this way cannot be returned to life by means of spells, unless a spell of 7th level or higher is used." can be simplified by "A creature whose essence was devoured this way cannot be returned to life by a spell of lower than 7th level."

*Terrifying Fury* - Okay, I was bothered by this at first thinking it would trigger to often when you have advantage (especially with elven accuracy).  However, since it only last until the end of your next turn it isn't as bad.

So, overall you have hit your aim.  This is definitely a glass canon style barbarian, which is a very different design space than most barbarians.  You did a good job making sure that you can't abuse this with multiclassing.  It looks good to me :)





*Spoiler: Ranger Conclave: The Dunedain*
Show



*Dunedain Endurance* - The part of this feature where you lose exhaustion during a short rest is a duplicate of the 10th level Tireless feature of Tasha's option ranger abilities.  It's very fitting to the theme and the character, but it may be worth changing that some (maybe something that prevent exhaustion rather than curing it) to prevent overlap of abilities.

*Hands of a Healer* - Personal pet peeve here.  If they do have medicine proficiency, they don't get anything from this.  Either give expertise or the choice of another ranger skill if they do have it.  That way it isn't worthless.

*Ancient Lore* - I don't see the need to make this only for only 1 creature type.  You only get to use it once per long rest, and there is a save vs the charm affect.  You could easily open this to all creature types and it wouldn't cause any problems at all.  Also, you didn't mention the action cost for _Friend_.

*Will of the Dunedain* - Seems fine to me.

*The Return of The King* - You forgot to mention the level here.  Also, did you mean to limit the amount of times you can do this?  I think at will is a little much.  Especially if you can get something like a flaming sphere up and do damage with your bonus action.









> Well, they are based on Dragon magic, which is probably why, but well, couldn't resist given how much Fairy Tail is. 
> 
> I like the temporary HP idea so I'll use that.
> 
> As for the for the lightning attack thing, well I can't think of anything else right now so I'd appreciate some suggestions.
> 
> Straight damage I figured could be for some fun
> 
> I thought base unarmored AC was 10? so with Dracoelemental body, your new unarmored base AC would be 10 + Dex modifier + Charisma modifier
> ...


Base unarmored AC is 10, but you are a sorcerer and will be casting Mage armor with a 1st level slot to get 3 extra AC (because why wouldn't you).  That is where I got 13 + Dex + Cha.  Mage Armor is not considered armor nor is it a shield.  This gets even higher if you have magical items that boost your AC.

Let me think on the lightning ability.  Shocking Grasp removes your reaction.  Lightning Lure pulls people towards you.  That's all that spells that do lightning damage do, everything else is straight lightning damage.  Damage resistance would be the easy fallback damage type.  Grounding someone else so they don't take lightning damage would be cool.  Maybe if you take lightning damage, you can use your reaction to grab someone and pass some of the damage along to them (since electric charge passes through one object to another).  That is what I have right now, but I will think on more.

----------


## Lvl45DM!

> *Spoiler: Ranger Conclave: The Dunedain*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Dunedain Endurance* - The part of this feature where you lose exhaustion during a short rest is a duplicate of the 10th level Tireless feature of Tasha's option ranger abilities.  It's very fitting to the theme and the character, but it may be worth changing that some (maybe something that prevent exhaustion rather than curing it) to prevent overlap of abilities.
> 
> *Hands of a Healer* - Personal pet peeve here.  If they do have medicine proficiency, they don't get anything from this.  Either give expertise or the choice of another ranger skill if they do have it.  That way it isn't worthless.
> 
> ...


*Endurance:* Ugh really? I didnt get Tashas. I just wanted a Strider ability that wasnt just extra movement. Call it twice as long to gain levels of endurance naturally?

*Hands of a Healer:*Yeah they can pick another skill seems fair.

*Ancient Lore:*Ah yeah thats cos I toned it down from all creatures in 30ft without making something else stronger. Yknow cos Aragorn had an army. But then i realized thats an encounter ender and I dont like those sort of abilities. 

*Return of the King:*I was sorta on the fence about that, but I wasnt thinking about BA. Definitely a limit. Whats sorta annoying is that thematically its a CHA ability but making it tied to CHA would be clunky on the rest of the chassis.

----------


## nickl_2000

> *Endurance:* Ugh really? I didnt get Tashas. I just wanted a Strider ability that wasnt just extra movement. Call it twice as long to gain levels of endurance naturally?
> 
> *Hands of a Healer:*Yeah they can pick another skill seems fair.
> 
> *Ancient Lore:*Ah yeah thats cos I toned it down from all creatures in 30ft without making something else stronger. Yknow cos Aragorn had an army. But then i realized thats an encounter ender and I dont like those sort of abilities. 
> 
> *Return of the King:*I was sorta on the fence about that, but I wasnt thinking about BA. Definitely a limit. Whats sorta annoying is that thematically its a CHA ability but making it tied to CHA would be clunky on the rest of the chassis.


Endurance:  
-You can do a forced march extra without getting exhaustion
-once per long rest you can shrug off an effect that would cause a level of exhaustion (similar function, but not overlapping).
-You can go without sleep for a longer period of time

Just a few ideas.

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## Damon_Tor

> *Hands of a Healer* - Personal pet peeve here.  If they do have medicine proficiency, they don't get anything from this.  Either give expertise or the choice of another ranger skill if they do have it.  That way it isn't worthless.


IIRC, there's already a provision in the general rules that if you would ever gain a proficiency you already have, you can get a different proficiency of the same type of your choice instead. It's possible I'm misremembering that though.

----------


## Lvl45DM!

> IIRC, there's already a provision in the general rules that if you would ever gain a proficiency you already have, you can get a different proficiency of the same type of your choice instead. It's possible I'm misremembering that though.


It is! PHB 125

----------


## Twelvetrees

Cannibal Witch is ready for review. I'm not happy with how poorly the 6th and 10th level features work together so if someone has a better idea for the 6th level feature, I'd love to hear. it.

----------


## nickl_2000

> IIRC, there's already a provision in the general rules that if you would ever gain a proficiency you already have, you can get a different proficiency of the same type of your choice instead. It's possible I'm misremembering that though.





> It is! PHB 125


I always assumed that applied to backgrounds only since it was in the background section.  Especially since the newer books (Tasha's) use this language for the armorer 

"You also gain proficiency with smiths tools. If you already have this tool proficiency, you gain proficiency with one other type of artisans tools of your choice."


Either way, it doesn't hurt to put it in there for clarities sake.






> Cannibal Witch is ready for review. I'm not happy with how poorly the 6th and 10th level features work together so if someone has a better idea for the 6th level feature, I'd love to hear. it.


*Spoiler: Cannibal Witch Review*
Show



Okay, so both the level 2 features feel like fluff features to me.  They are neat and they are thematic, but they won't make a huge difference in the game.  There is nothing in there that yells to me, this is what I will be doing all that time that fits the theme and makes me more powerful.

Maybe your house can have a charm affect where while it is standing all creatures within a certain distance must make a save or be charmed and forced to move towards the cottage and spend their action eating it?  Or maybe if they do eat it they must make a con save or have their speed slowed for 1 minute (because they are so full of sweet).  Something that has either direct or indirect combat implications.

*Fatten Them Up* - That is a lot of temp hp.  When you are level 10 you are giving 50 hp, considering a fighter at that level would have 86 you are adding over 50% more hp to them.  This gets to be even more when it's factored into a barbarian who gets damage resistances.  Personally, I would look to make this a smaller about and allow you to do it once per person per short rest.  That way is has an impact on the game, but it is spread more evenly around.  Another possible issue here is the feeding of it to enemies or people that aren't enemies.  You can force feed them food and give them disadvantage from your suggestion and charm spells forever basically.  The concept is a cool one, but how does the NPC avoid that?

*Into the Oven* - How many people can be in the oven at once?

*Cook and Eat Them* - Do my a favor and say that your regain hit points equal to their hit dice (rounded down).  That way it's extremely clear that you can't just start throwing CR 1/8 creature in there until you are at full hit points.


So, I don't see an issue with the level 6 and 10 features not working together.  Both of the are related to your theme and it makes it so you get a feature when your house has been destroyed.

----------


## Lvl45DM!

> I always assumed that applied to backgrounds only since it was in the background section.  Especially since the newer books (Tasha's) use this language for the armorer 
> 
> "You also gain proficiency with smiths tools. If you already have this tool proficiency, you gain proficiency with one other type of artisans tools of your choice."
> 
> 
> Either way, it doesn't hurt to put it in there for clarity's sake.


It specifies "any source". But it doesn't hurt, no.

----------


## Lvl 2 Expert

I actually got an idea these last few days. I think I'll be competing this round, if someone doesn't beat me to the execution.

----------


## Ilerien

> *Spoiler: Primal Path: Path of the Reaver*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Alright, I saw path of the Reaver and immediately went to a different place than Dragonage.  
> 
> *Blood Frenzy* - The interesting thing on this is that it encourages the barbarian to be sword and board rather than a GWM barbarian.  I'm actually glad to see that as a S&B style player (since you resist less damage it it better to not get hit as much).  This class really does want you to be doing critical damage, with the extra die that will make a 19 very exciting.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking a look!  :Small Smile: 
Your suggested wording improvements are sound and much appreciated! :)

I have to admit, I don't entirely like the saving throw boost option of Devour precisely for the same reason: if devoured creature's CR is just one number to keep track of, saves are the whole 6 more, so a DM would have to look up the save modifiers when their player uses this option. I'm reluctant to give an advantage and call it a day because it should be dependent in some way of the creature devoured. Maybe just give a CR/2 bonus? Would be more powerful, but not really a big deal I think.

Elven accuracy doesn't work with strength-based attacks, so it won't work with reckless attack (that gives advantage only to strength-based attacks).
The effect of Terrifying Fury itself is kind of in line with 10th level feature of Berserker. Doesn't take up an action itself and affects more targets, sure, but actually triggering it requires some measure of luck. Has particularly good DC out of the box for pretty much any barbarian, but once an enemy makes the save, it's immune to further occurrences of this feature.

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## Damon_Tor

Changelog: I removed the Argean Forge ability from the Path of the Titan and moved Destroyer to 6th level. At 10th level they gain "Clash", a defensive reaction to being hit with a melee weapon attack, reducing the damage by the result of a strength (athletics) check. If you reduce the damage to zero you totally overpower the incoming attack and get to make a free melee weapon attack against the opponent.

This is supposed to model the iconic weapon clash, especially popular between characters with massive freaking weapons:*Spoiler: Example*
Show

 


EDIT: Thinking about it, Inuyasha might be my closest archetype, using his (racially derived) claws most of the time then pulling out his magical x-box-hueg sword when something really needs its ass kicked. This is especially true at the start of the story, then relying more and more on his sword as the story progresses (ie, as he gains barbarian levels and can rage more often). And he is definitely an emotional, reckless fighter, fitting the barbarian class to a T.

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## Damon_Tor

re: Battling Bowman

How about a grappling-hook arrow?

Great subclass. I'd like it if you replaced some of the instances of the word "arrow" with the more generic "projectile". It would be good, I think, to allow the class to function with crossbows and slings as well. (IIRC, kobolds have, or maybe had in past editions, an NPC type that uses a sling to launch clay pots filled with glue or smoke bombs. This subclass could model that mechanic.)

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## nickl_2000

> re: Battling Bowman
> 
> How about a grappling-hook arrow?
> 
> Great subclass. I'd like it if you replaced some of the instances of the word "arrow" with the more generic "projectile". It would be good, I think, to allow the class to function with crossbows and slings as well. (IIRC, kobolds have, or maybe had in past editions, an NPC type that uses a sling to launch clay pots filled with glue or smoke bombs. This subclass could model that mechanic.)


Thanks for taking a look.

Good call, while this is modelled after the Green Arrow and Hawkeye, it was intended to be applicable to all projectiles (bolts, arrows, thrown daggers, darts, sling  bullets, etc).

I added in the grappling hook projectile trick shot since that it pretty iconic.  I actually left it out since it seemed pretty abusable, but I think I locked it down well enough to keep it to the intended purposes

----------


## MoleMage

Alright I'm torn. Which of these would people like to see?

Mantis Kinden Ranger (based on Adrian Tchaikovsky's Shadows of the Apt book series) [Includes a "birthright" mechanic that I haven't figured out yet but probably just means mutual exclusivity with other birthrights.]
Way of the Mists (based on Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series)
Hollowborn Fighter (Based on the video game Hollow Knight)
Malaised One Fighter (Based on the video game Dead Cells) [Includes a "roguelike" inspired mechanic where each day you get random boons or penalties, encouraging you to adjust your playstyle on the fly]
Way of the Watcher  (Based on the video game Slay the Spire) [Honestly might just use still yet more stances; it's her thing in-game]

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## nickl_2000

> Alright I'm torn. Which of these would people like to see?
> 
> Mantis Kinden Ranger (based on Adrian Tchaikovsky's Shadows of the Apt book series) [Includes a "birthright" mechanic that I haven't figured out yet but probably just means mutual exclusivity with other birthrights.]
> Way of the Mists (based on Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series)
> Hollowborn Fighter (Based on the video game Hollow Knight)
> Malaised One Fighter (Based on the video game Dead Cells) [Includes a "roguelike" inspired mechanic where each day you get random boons or penalties, encouraging you to adjust your playstyle on the fly]
> Way of the Watcher  (Based on the video game Slay the Spire) [Honestly might just use still yet more stances; it's her thing in-game]


I personally vote for Way of the Mist, but that is because it is the only one of those I've read or played.

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## RickAsWritten

> Way of the Watcher  (Based on the video game Slay the Spire) [Honestly might just use still yet more stances; it's her thing in-game]


Hah, I've spent the last few days chewing over how I could get the Defect or the Silent to transfer over to 5e mechanics.  That game is so, so good.  Can't go wrong with Mistborn (or anything BrandoSando) either.

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## MoleMage

> Hah, I've spent the last few days chewing over how I could get the Defect or the Silent to transfer over to 5e mechanics.  That game is so, so good.  Can't go wrong with Mistborn (or anything BrandoSando) either.


It was a tossup between Silent and Watcher for me to put on that list.

EDIT: I think the Defect needs a whole class; its mechanics just don't line up with anything in 5e so far.

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## Lvl45DM!

Added a few adjustments to the Dunedain ranger.

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## RickAsWritten

My entry is up.  A fighter subclass based on everyone's favorite Irish corporate hitman, Zane from Borderlands 3.  Truth be told, in regards to the balance...I'm not sure if I "hit a cows arse with a banjo," but it's done and it stays mostly true to the character.

Fighter Archetype: Magitech Mercenary

----------


## Phhase

More text.

*Spoiler: What if Ranger was good?*
Show


Sorry I meant to say, Arrowman Artificer.

I like Quick quiver. Does it function like a magazine for a crossbow? Potentially making it effectively a repeater? Would be sweet. Also, if you're proficient with improvised weapons (c.f. Tavern Brawler feat, I think) can you store pretty much anything of a certain size in the quiver? The part where it says that items stored are not lost on destruction makes me think it'd be a REALLY good alternative to leomund's secret chest in a pinch.

Interesting to make the specialized ammunition a maneuver-like system rather than, well, just specialized ammunition. That you can make. It's not a problem just a quirk to me. The fact that you inevitably learn all the maneuvers does feel odd though, kinda like Legolas is a wasted subclass feature. What if you learn more at certain milestones after the first level and just have something else in that spot? + to uses on rolling initiative is usually a capstone ribbon (which is odd since the capstone already does that).

I think calling Speedy Extra Attack would be good, since that's what it is. Something about specific rules interactions between class features and the "Extra Attack" feature specifically. I forget the details, but there's some sort of mechanical significance to it somewhere. Unless you foresaw that and are ok with odd stacking interactions, naturally.

Hmm, What dyou think about grappling or restraining your target with the bola arrow instead, spellpower as escape DC? For the Glue then I'd maybe try the effect that the UA artificer tanglefoot bag formula has, an AOE of diffucult terrain and then starting your turn in it reduces your speed by half again, so effectively 1/4 speed zone. 

What happens if you shoot a creature with a grapple? Can you pull then out of the sky? Out of a fall? Like a harpoon towards you?

Rain arrows are pretty badass. Does it enable the use of Call Lightning?

I like the capstone, looks good. Overall, pretty good!




*Spoiler: Reaver*
Show



I like blood frenzy. The near death mechanics and trading resistances for damage is a cool idea. Does the critical strike enhancer stack with other sources of such effects? Also the wording on the last feature is a little confusing, say the "When you are at half or less of your max hp, then..." part first.

Devour is also a cool feature. I like having choices. I assume the Extra necrotic damage is 1d8 minimum for a CR 1 Creature? You've got some bag-of-rats protection in there, and I kind of like that you don't have to be raging to use this feature. Does the necrotic damage double on a crit like a smite? Do you declare it before or after an attack hits? Useless in single combat, though, which I think is a fair trade off given its power and the flavor of the archetype.

I like aura of pain too, lots of good features here! The Devour Synergy is great. I just wonder if you'd consider a flat save penalty over disadvantage. Although literally that's only because I associate AoE pain debuff effects with 3.5e Symbol of pain which inflicts flat penalties (I think).

Terrifying Fury is ok. I'm not sure how good it is considering it only lasts one turn, relies on crits, and has an immunity clause, but I _think_ the otherwise unlimited use balances it out? It's cool, at any rate.

Good entry, very cohesive, concise, and interesting! Gives me Guts vibes.



*Spoiler: Aragorn*
Show


Only note for Endurance is that the definition of "natural exhaustion gain rate" is a very blurry concept you may want to look into.

Endurance and maxed short rests are both niche but very good in a hardcore campaign. Good design.

I like the idea of having favored friends as a variant on favored enemies, that's a cool idea. To be clear, you get resistance whether or not the attempt succeeds, right? I also like that that you get some hard benefits alongside the soft informational benefits that might not be as useful if you accidentally memorize monster statblocks the way I do (although it'd still be amazing against nonstandard enemies).

Everything looks fine! Good recreation of that one guy from that one trilogy. I probably wouldn't play as this, but I'd be happy to have one in the party.



*Spoiler: Gingerbread House Resident*
Show



Just summon a wholeass gingerbread house. I love it, that's hilarious.

Oooh, I like the idea of trading off making enemies tougher to make them softer for your spells, interesting.

How many creatures can fit in the oven at once? Does it affect allies too? And what's the max creature size? That could be pretty OP in the right scenario. Especially since you effectively have to make 2 saving throws in a row to successfully escape the oven, because you make the first save at the end of your turn, then start your turn next to it again forcing another save. 

Cook and eat is a bit meh though, although the fact that it fails bag of rats makes it obtusely useful.

Overall a pretty sweet meme subclass lol.  :Small Big Grin: 




*Spoiler: Borderlander*
Show


Missed one "defender" when retrofitting the text, in the mending clause. I like the ranged attack fire support. If you communicate with it remotely, does that mean you can make skill checks at basically any range?

Barrier seems decent.

Cloner is ok. Lacking in any depth, but mechanically solid, I think? It it good enough? I dunno.

Since only one ability has either one of the specified clauses, I don't think you need to be so general with Kill Skill.

Does the duplicate gain the benefits of any buff spells or other enhancers like magic weapons that you are currently benefiting from? That could be pretty sweet. Also, what does "One use of the indomitable ability" mean? I didn't see any such ability.

Overall decent. I trust it's faithful to the source material, but I personally feel it lacks something. I dunno, I'm probably wrong.




<Dragonelement Sorc>
Having looked over the change to Dragonelement Sorcerer, I think you're trying to cram an entire subclass with a separate playstyle into a single class feature. I understand the angle, and as is it's _okay_ as a feature, but I still think the ability-burst is a better idea both flavor and balance-wise. Funnily enough, the actual Pyro from TF2 suffers from a similar problem that I tried to _fix_ rather thn emulate with my design. That's part of the reason I went for Axtinguisher rather than Airblast for my Pyro Sorcerer, because Pyro as a TF2 class is already in a strange identity confusion crisis between close and medium range, and offense/DoT/Burst/Ambush/Support/Other features. For a sorcerer, I wanted a reason to get into melee range that was in line with the offensive nature of the class without compromising its identity. What sort of reason would an offensive midrange class that has less HP than it could have to get into close range where it's dangerous? Well, for an offensive class with DoT components, you wouldn't want to be in melee range for very long, right? So how about trading consistent damage over time for an instant burst of damage for a finishing blow? Ideally, your opponent will either be killed by it, or will perish soon after limiting your exposure to danger - pretty much the same way the actual Axtinguisher works in TF2! Conversely, Dracoelemental Body is like the Sharpened Volcano Fragment. As a weapon, it's either redundant, or completely outclassed by anything else the class can do, and even if you _can_ make it work in a given situation, it's still not because of anything unique it itself offers that anything else you have doesn't also offer. On a different class, the Sharpened Volcano Fragment would be a great weapon (As Dracoelemental Body would be great on, say, Monk or Fighter or maybe Warlock) but for Sorcerer it's...kind of just there. But that's all just opinion, do as you will.

<Titan Barbarian>
Apropos of reshaping terrain as a core class feature of Giant Weapon Barbarian - don't get me wrong, I LOVE environmental combat. I'm personally of the opinion that if I am making a basic vanilla weapon attack with no frills on any given turn, _something is wrong_. However, it's very DM-dependent, and I usally try to accomplish this sort of thing using systems at least one step removed from my base class features. What you've done is make the core fighting style of the class completely dependent on the DM for being effective in a given situation through emergent gameplay. I like the idea, I just think it could use some backup. And while I do cede that many Barbarian class features are keyed to rage, I think that _being able to swing your weapon at all_ is a step too far. That's part of what I like about the Path of Unshacked Steel version of this subclass - it's not about using the weapon it all, it about how you use it and how effective you are when doing so (c.f. disadvantage by default, offest by Momentum and Brutality mechanics). Also, while you're right about equivalency and the improvised weapon rules (an interesting point that I hadn't considered), I still think that with the rules as they are, you ought to be able to dual wield glaives if you can dual wield lances. Just because there's no name for the other version of the weapon doesn't mean it shouldn't work imo. It would be like...a glaive used as an improvised large spear that deals slashing damage instead, I guess. Point is, while I do love the elegancy of dovetailing into existing rules, I don't think that ought to allow for fringe arbitrary limitations as I see it.

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## Lvl45DM!

> More text.
> 
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: Aragorn*
> Show
> 
> 
> Only note for Endurance is that the definition of "natural exhaustion gain rate" is a very blurry concept you may want to look into.
> ...


Thanks. Yeah you get the hard benefits regardless of success. I figured since its running off creature type they might not get to use it much, and that would suck, so I made it a little stronger. 

About Endurance, I might need to read the rules clearer, but its for things like forced marches or weather. But there isnt a neat list in the books of what causes exhaustion. 

I just realized, it makes a half decent Witcher subclass with the ancient lore thing. Just switch Medicine to making alchemy and some stuff like that.

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## Ilerien

> Good entry, very cohesive, concise, and interesting! Gives me Guts vibes.


Thank you for your feedback! :)
*Spoiler: Blood Frenzy*
Show




> I like blood frenzy. The near death mechanics and trading resistances for damage is a cool idea. Does the critical strike enhancer stack with other sources of such effects? Also the wording on the last feature is a little confusing, say the "When you are at half or less of your max hp, then..." part first.


Critical range increase shouldn't stack with similar effects. As I understand, it works on the same principle as base AC: you may choose any option you have to determine it, but only one of them. So 14th level Reaver with 3 levels of Champion fighter would crit on 19-20 normally or on 18-20 when using reckless attack while in blood frenzy.
The wording indeed could use some improvements, I'll look into it more closely.
*Spoiler: Devour*
Show




> Devour is also a cool feature. I like having choices. I assume the Extra necrotic damage is 1d8 minimum for a CR 1 Creature? You've got some bag-of-rats protection in there, and I kind of like that you don't have to be raging to use this feature. Does the necrotic damage double on a crit like a smite? Do you declare it before or after an attack hits? Useless in single combat, though, which I think is a fair trade off given its power and the flavor of the archetype.


Your assumption is correct: it will be 1d8 if CR 1 creature is devoured. Necrotic damage doubles on crit: it's additional dice after all. You declare it after the attack hits, much like a rogue does with sneak attack (hence "when you hit with..." clause).
*Spoiler: Aura of Pain*
Show




> I like aura of pain too, lots of good features here! The Devour Synergy is great. I just wonder if you'd consider a flat save penalty over disadvantage. Although literally that's only because I associate AoE pain debuff effects with 3.5e Symbol of pain which inflicts flat penalties (I think).


5e's Symbol of Pain says "Each target must make a Constitution saving throw and becomes incapacitated with excruciating pain for 1 minute on a failed save." I like 3.5 version, but flat bonuses and penalties are seldom used in 5e.
*Spoiler: Terrifying Fury*
Show




> Terrifying Fury is ok. I'm not sure how good it is considering it only lasts one turn, relies on crits, and has an immunity clause, but I _think_ the otherwise unlimited use balances it out? It's cool, at any rate.


I tried to capture the feeling of reasonably high reward (frightening everyone around) triggered by chance. Though one has the ability to influence the probability: just frenzy and go on with reckless attack!  :Small Big Grin:  I do think it would become unreasonably powerful if its duration is extended or if immunity clause is lifted: with 2 attacks per round and crit on 18-20 it's very likely a reaver will crit at least once per 2-3 rounds. Woe to the weak-willed who fail their save repeatedly. :)

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## RickAsWritten

> *Spoiler: Borderlander*
> Show
> 
> 
> Missed one "defender" when retrofitting the text, in the mending clause. I like the ranged attack fire support. If you communicate with it remotely, does that mean you can make skill checks at basically any range?
> 
> Barrier seems decent.
> 
> Cloner is ok. Lacking in any depth, but mechanically solid, I think? It it good enough? I dunno.
> ...


Made a couple changes based on your feedback.  Thanks!

    Fixed typos    Added speed boost Action to SNTNL    Altered wording for cover from Barrier    Added speed boost to Kill Skill    Clarified Doubled Agent

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## nickl_2000

> More text.
> 
> Sorry I meant to say, Arrowman Artificer.
> 
> I like Quick quiver. Does it function like a magazine for a crossbow? Potentially making it effectively a repeater? Would be sweet. Also, if you're proficient with improvised weapons (c.f. Tavern Brawler feat, I think) can you store pretty much anything of a certain size in the quiver? The part where it says that items stored are not lost on destruction makes me think it'd be a REALLY good alternative to leomund's secret chest in a pinch.
> 
> Interesting to make the specialized ammunition a maneuver-like system rather than, well, just specialized ammunition. That you can make. It's not a problem just a quirk to me. The fact that you inevitably learn all the maneuvers does feel odd though, kinda like Legolas is a wasted subclass feature. What if you learn more at certain milestones after the first level and just have something else in that spot? + to uses on rolling initiative is usually a capstone ribbon (which is odd since the capstone already does that).
> 
> I think calling Speedy Extra Attack would be good, since that's what it is. Something about specific rules interactions between class features and the "Extra Attack" feature specifically. I forget the details, but there's some sort of mechanical significance to it somewhere. Unless you foresaw that and are ok with odd stacking interactions, naturally.
> ...


Since you are playing an artificer, you have access to the repeating infusion and the XBE feat.  I didn't want to replicate those, so I didn't give that effect on purpose.

As for the maneuver system, in my mind canon the magical quiver is building the arrow as you draw it out, having it do whatever you need it to do.  That was you have the almost magical ability to pull just the arrow you need for the situation.  Plus, I didn't want someone to have to pick at a short rest, it's a bookkeeping hassle I didn't want to have to introduce.

Thanks, yes since I named it Speedy, it would have technically stacked with extra attack and it should.  I resolved that issue.

I change the trick shots to be 4 at 3, 8 at 9, 12 at 15 and only left if get a trick shot if you have none as part of the capstone.  Then added in a 9th level ability to allow you to nock two arrows at once and make two attacks against a single target in place of a single attack a few times a day (i.e. nova damage).

Touched up the Bola and Glue arrows based on your suggestion.  As for the grappling arrow, it has this rider at the end "This trick shot can only be used against an object, and one that is not being carried by a creature."  I did that on purpose to avoid the concept of a grappling hook hitting something and the problem involved in that.

As for rain arrows, you are creating a storm.  I see no reason why you couldn't use them to make it storm and make the Druid's Call Lightning spell do more damage.  Seems like awesome team work to me and the thing I love seeing in a game.



Thank you for all the suggestions and comments!

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## nickl_2000

*Spoiler: Magitech Mercenary*
Show



*SNTNL* - So, the stat block on this seems mostly good, although Zoomer need some sort of range to it.  Looks like a companion style fighter.  There are a few wonky things with the duration though.

1) You Summon it as a bonus action, and you need a bonus action to command it to do anything other than dodge.  So, one the first turn you summon it, the SNTNL will be twiddling it's thumbs.  If this isn't intentional, you may want to consider putting in something that allows you to summons and command on the first turn in the same bonus action.

2) It's summoned for 1 minute.  Mending takes 1 minute to cast (and isn't normally accessible to the fighter without a feat or multiclassing).  So, unless you are doubling the summon time, you can't actually heal it at all.

3) Speaking of doubling the summon time.  Does the time grow exponentially or does it grow by 1 minute each time?  I.e. is the progression 1,2,3,4,5 (etc) minutes, or 1,2,4,8,16,32 (etc) minutes.

I don't know the theme all that well, but would it be fitting to give the PC mending as well?

*Barrier* - Seems okay.  The action cost is pretty high, but it's a large barrier and half-cover for all your allies is pretty darn good.  Same question with the summoning time.

*Kill Skill* - Small typo in the first sentence.  When you get to 1 hour is that the max length on the abilities?  Or does it keep increasing by an hour each time you kill a CR1+ creature?

*Doubled Agent* - So, bonus attack once per round when you have mirror image up.  Makes sense, and is sensibly limited.

Question on all the kill someone to get a new ability.  If I'm level 10 and kill a CR 2 critter, do I get a Clone, Barrier, and SNTNL back or just one of them?



This is certainly an interesting subclass.  I really like the teamwork aspect that it offers for a fighter, which isn't always available.  There were a few questions above about durations.  Other than than the only other comment I have is that there is a lot of competition for your bonus action each turn.  It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does limit the power of the subclass a little bit.  Overall though, this is a really solid entry and a good subclass that I would enjoy seeing at my table.

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## Snowben Gaming

So I discovered this for the first time yesterday and I made the Dragonstone Warrior: a fighter subclass based on Corrin from Fire Emblem Fates. It's... not good, to say the least. I made it in about an hour or so, and I'm pretty sure it's only my 2nd ever homebrew subclass. So critique is more than welcome.

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## nickl_2000

> So I discovered this for the first time yesterday and I made the Dragonstone Warrior: a fighter subclass based on Corrin from Fire Emblem Fates. It's... not good, to say the least. I made it in about an hour or so, and I'm pretty sure it's only my 2nd ever homebrew subclass. So critique is more than welcome.


New entry, new review :)  And for an hours worth of work, I think it is actually pretty darn good.

*Spoiler: Martial Archetype: Dragonstone Warrior*
Show



Welcome to the party!  Glad to see new names and fresh aviators!

*Draconic Regality* - Looks good, no complaints here

*Dragonstone Transformation* - Small typo that changes the intended meaning "If you loose this stone" I assume should be "if you lose this stone."

For the Arcane Blast on this feature, this actually seems a little underpowered in terms of damage.  Once you use this, you loose your over abilities so it's effectively a finishing move in combat if you need it.  A fighter at level 5 will be doing 2 attacks, each at around 1d8+4.  So average damage on hit of 8.5 each to do 17 damage a round.  This ability will do an average of 10.5 damage in a round, and making you lose your +1 AC bonus.  Really, there are only rare situations where it would be worthwhile to use this ability as it is.  I may look at either boosting the amount of damage done by 1d6 or making it a small AoE ability to make it more worthwhile to use.

On the other hand, the light, reach weapon that does 1d8 is a little to powerful.  The only other martial weapon that is similar is the whip, which does 1d4 damage.  Since it's part of an ability, doing 1d6 damage feels right to me.  Or either remove the light or the reach property (probably the light because I'm assuming the reach is part of the theme).

*Blood of the First Dragons* - Seems fine to me as is.

*Dragonfang* - Despite this ability causing it to no longer end the transformation, I would still keep the damage higher.  Otherwise this seems good, the ability to use it in place of the last attack is powerful, but is sensibly limited.  This making it cool, effective, and well balanced.

*Dragon's Soul* - Makes sense.  A lot is based on your dragon form up until now, so it's nice to be able to use it more often.

*Dragon-kin* - The last bullet on here seems a little much to me.  Being able to make 2 to 3 attacks and then dropping 5d6 (or 6d6) damage on someone at will is really, really powerful.  Everything else is good, even moving the damage to 1d10 on the force lance weapon.  You have a capstone, it should be cool.

Ignore all of the above.  As I read on further, I saw that you could only do this once per long rest.  Given that's the case I retract everything and see this as perfectly fine the way it is.  It's powerful, but it is limited enough to make it balanced.


Overall, this is a really good entry.  It's got a lot of good flavour to it and feel to it.  There is plenty to do while playing the class and seems great.

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## Snowben Gaming

> New entry, new review :)  And for an hours worth of work, I think it is actually pretty darn good.
> 
> *Spoiler: Martial Archetype: Dragonstone Warrior*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to the party!  Glad to see new names and fresh aviators!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback!

The "loose" should be "lose", that was indeed a typo.

The Arcane Blast was the main thing I was worried about in this to be honest, my rationale for its current state was that it deals force damage, which isn't commonly resisted. I'll probably make it a small AoE (5ft radius sphere maybe?) as it is effectively the closest thing you get to a breath weapon, rather than increase the damage (although I might end up doing so anyways).

The natural weapon is a weird one, as Corrin (who this whole thing is based off) can attack with it after making a weapon attack with a 1 handed weapon, indicating that it has the light property (but then again, he usually makes it after an attack with his sword, which is best represented in 5e by a longsword, which *doesn't* have the light property, so I can only assume he just took the Dual-Wielder feat) and although it has way more reach than any melee weapon in FE: Fates, it doesn't actually increase his in-game reach (probably because he only uses it as part of a combo which has a % chance of being triggered by any attack he makes on his turn, so the attack uses the reach of the weapon he used. Not to mention all melee weapons in Fire Emblem have the same reach.), all of which means that, if I'm being faithful to the source, it shouldn't have either property. I'm definitely going to keep the reach though, so I'll probably drop the damage down to a d6 or remove the light property. I'm leaning towards damage, but that of course raises the point of if I need to lower the damage while in true dragon form. (Although I forgot to remove the ability to actually wield manufactured weapons (and other object interactions) while in true dragon form, as you're walking around on all fours, so that'll probably balance out... hopefully.) Never mind, Corrin still has hands in dragon form, but his equipment is absorbed into him (like how it is for a druid's Wildshape, so I'll add that as a clause instead.

I'm glad to hear everything else holds up, I was half expecting the capstone to be too weak, and half expecting it to be _way_ too strong, so I'm real happy that it's actually ok.

Thanks again!

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## Phhase

Welcome to the clan, Snow! I'm the needlessly complex one. 

As far as dragonstone warrior goes, honestly, not much to say. Looks pretty good! I really can't think of many changes to make, it's pretty well done. Seems faithful to the source, not the most flexible but certainly consistent, strength seems ok. Good entry!

Way of Mist isn't done, but what is there seems neat. I like the extra turn and the healing pool, though 5 points might be a bit much for just advantage.

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## Lvl 2 Expert

Wait, quick question, is there a spell or other magical way to identify a person, like just point at them and say "what's their name?" basically?

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## Snowben Gaming

> Welcome to the clan, Snow! I'm the needlessly complex one. 
> 
> As far as dragonstone warrior goes, honestly, not much to say. Looks pretty good! I really can't think of many changes to make, it's pretty well done. Seems faithful to the source, not the most flexible but certainly consistent, strength seems ok. Good entry!


Thanks! I'm honestly kind of surprised as to how well it holds up, but I'm definitely glad to hear it does.




> Wait, quick question, is there a spell or other magical way to identify a person, like just point at them and say "what's their name?" basically?


 :Small Confused:  I... don't believe so, but if you need something that does so, you can always make it.

Well then, I guess I should do my part and give some feedback.
*Spoiler: Way of the Mists*
Show

*First Metals:* This (and the subclass as a whole) does depend on what the metals actually _do_, so I'll probably give an extra bit of feedback once you've had the time to do them.

*Allomantic Reserves:* Again, depends on the metals, but assuming that all of the metals require ki to activate, this will be a really good feature.

*Augur:* This is pretty cool. I do have a question though: when assigning bonus ki from Allomantic Reserves, do you gain 3 gold points per ki point, or just 3 no matter how many ki points you put in. I assume it's the former, but I just figured I'd ask, as the wording doesn't make it clear (at least for me).

*Atium:* Now this is good. No further comments here.

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## Lvl 2 Expert

> I... don't believe so, but if you need something that does so, you can always make it.


No, I need there to not be such a thing, or I need to put in a sentence that protects against it somewhere.  :Small Big Grin: 



I let it get right down to the wire this month. I honestly wouldn't mind a week extension, which I would use to give feedback on all your great creations and maybe nerf some of these optional abilities I wrote into the Masked Menace. But I'm also good to go as is.

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## Snowben Gaming

> No, I need there to not be such a thing, or I need to put in a sentence that protects against it somewhere.


Fair enough.




> I let it get right down to the wire this month. I honestly wouldn't mind a week extension, which I would use to give feedback on all your great creations and maybe nerf some of these optional abilities I wrote into the Masked Menace. But I'm also good to go as is.


Well, even if you don't get time to do any revisions, have some feedback:
*Spoiler: Masked Menace Rogue*
Show

*Alter Ego:* Beyond a minor typo (acquire _of_ scavenge should be acquire _or_ scavenge) this is a pretty snazzy ribbon ability, as befitting a rogue subclass.

*Quick Change:* This feels more like an extension of Alter Ego to me. Additionally, 5e doesn't have full round actions, so the second sentence needs to be changed (at least the wording does, it could still take a full round, you'd just have to specify that if you take the action and no bonus actions or movement on your turn then you get the benefits). Also, Stealth checks should be written as "Dexterity (Stealth) checks", but that's just a writing thing rather than a balance thing, so it's easily changed.

_Level 3 Overall:_ The features here are really good flavour wise, but they're both ribbons, whereas the official rogue subclasses get a ribbon and a combat-based feature. Since Alter Ego and Quick Change are so closely related, I'd say you'd be able to pass them off together as the ribbon and then add an extra combat-based feature.

*Rumoured Reputation:* All of these features are real good flavour wise, but they aren't balanced against each other. _I am the Night_ is too powerful I think, as the Thief only gains advantage on stealth checks if they move less than half movement on their turn, whereas this gives advantage on _all dex saves_, which is just too powerful. _Leading by Example_ and _Fear Itself_ should be good, as they're about balanced with the thief's 9th level ability. _Fear not my Friends_ is good, but I don't think it's too good. (It's also what I would take if I were playing this subclass.)

*Skilled for Two:* Extra skills never hurt anyone, especially a rogue.

*Superb Reputation:* Most of these are really cool! _I am the Night_ definitely needs a nerf, I'd recommend giving what you gave it at 9th (advantage on dex saves) assuming you nerfed it at 9th. For _Fear Itself_ you'd probably just be better off saying "all creatures of your choice" rather than making a distinction between allies, enemies and neutrals. Other than that, these are great!

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## Lvl 2 Expert

Thanks, good stuff! I can definitely sneak at least some of that in there later today.

(EDIT: made changes based on that feedback, added "No Surprises" to lvl 3, hoping it's not a smidgen too strong.)

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## Snowben Gaming

> Thanks, good stuff! I can definitely sneak at least some of that in there later today.


You're welcome. Happy to be of help!

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## Snowben Gaming

> (EDIT: made changes based on that feedback, added "No Surprises" to lvl 3, hoping it's not a smidgen too strong.)


*Spoiler: Masked Menace Round 2*
Show

*No Surprises:* Doesn't seem OP to me at least. War Wizards add int to initiative at level 2 which will probably be a higher number anyways (and will stay that way (assuming an increase to int mod at all ASI opportunities) until proficiency becomes +6) so that part of the feature seems fine to me. I'm kinda confused about the wording of the second part of the ability, I'm reading it as "you get a turn at the end of the surprise round and then your regular turn at the initiative you rolled on all consecutive turns" but I'm not sure if that's what it's actually supposed to do. If it is, it seems good to go.

*I am the Night Revised:* Yeah, this is a whole lot better now, non-magic dex saves at 9th and all dex saves at 17th is a whole lot better.

*Conclusion:* Everything looks pretty cool to me!  :Small Smile:

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## Lvl 2 Expert

> I'm kinda confused about the wording of the second part of the ability, I'm reading it as "you get a turn at the end of the surprise round and then your regular turn at the initiative you rolled on all consecutive turns" but I'm not sure if that's what it's actually supposed to do. If it is, it seems good to go.


Yes, that's what I meant. Both to make it not quite as strong as going in proper order during the surprise round, and to prevent that awkward situation where the DM goes "okay, so nothing has happened yet, you didn't see anything, it's your turn now."

I'll see what I can do about the wording.

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## Snowben Gaming

> Yes, that's what I meant. Both to make it not quite as strong as going in proper order during the surprise round, and to prevent that awkward situation where the DM goes "okay, so nothing has happened yet, you didn't see anything, it's your turn now."


Yeah, that makes sense. It's a pretty cool ability, I just wanted to make sure I understood what it actually did.

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## MoleMage

> Well then, I guess I should do my part and give some feedback.
> *Spoiler: Way of the Mists*
> Show
> 
> *First Metals:* This (and the subclass as a whole) does depend on what the metals actually _do_, so I'll probably give an extra bit of feedback once you've had the time to do them.
> 
> *Allomantic Reserves:* Again, depends on the metals, but assuming that all of the metals require ki to activate, this will be a really good feature.
> 
> *Augur:* This is pretty cool. I do have a question though: when assigning bonus ki from Allomantic Reserves, do you gain 3 gold points per ki point, or just 3 no matter how many ki points you put in. I assume it's the former, but I just figured I'd ask, as the wording doesn't make it clear (at least for me).
> ...


Thanks for the feedback! I changed Augur's ongoing effect to be "automatically succeed" against ongoing effects instead (they're common but not usually game breaking to escape easily, and it only works if a save is allowed in the first place). Fixed the wording (you do indeed get 3 gold points per bonus ki) also. I wrote the metals; they aren't equal right now but I don't have time to work through them, tried to eyeball it early on. All metals give an active effect costing Ki points, generally fitting a category: Iron/Steel is about offense, Tin/Pewter are saves and abilities, Zinc/Brass are more defensive, and Copper/Bronze are about dealing with magical effects.

----------


## Twelvetrees

> *Spoiler: Cannibal Witch Review*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so both the level 2 features feel like fluff features to me.  They are neat and they are thematic, but they won't make a huge difference in the game.  There is nothing in there that yells to me, this is what I will be doing all that time that fits the theme and makes me more powerful.
> 
> Maybe your house can have a charm affect where while it is standing all creatures within a certain distance must make a save or be charmed and forced to move towards the cottage and spend their action eating it?  Or maybe if they do eat it they must make a con save or have their speed slowed for 1 minute (because they are so full of sweet).  Something that has either direct or indirect combat implications.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback!

My intention with the House was for it to be more of a way to bar the way for foes than anything else. Charm effects were considered, but I felt that they were likely to be too similar to the School of Enchantment's level two ability. Frankly, I've had difficulty figuring out how effective the ability to create a wall at low levels is.

I changed it to be easier to create and removed the limitation on how often it could be created. Hopefully that makes it more useful.

The other changes I made follow your advice pretty closely.





> *Spoiler: Gingerbread House Resident*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Just summon a wholeass gingerbread house. I love it, that's hilarious.
> 
> Oooh, I like the idea of trading off making enemies tougher to make them softer for your spells, interesting.
> 
> ...


And there's the second comment on the how many creatures can fit in the oven at once...  :Small Tongue: 
Added information on that.

The bag of rats issue has been fixed. Thanks for catching that!

----------


## MoleMage

I was just getting ready to put the voting thread up when I noticed that I accidentally posted this contest for 3 weeks instead of the customary 4. Extending it an extra week for free, so if you had any edits in the work go ahead and put them up now!

----------


## LumenPlacidum

Oh, I just posted a subclass for Barbarian that was based on a prestige class from a previous edition of D&D, so I guess it qualifies here? Can I still enter, or has a window closed?

----------


## MoleMage

> Oh, I just posted a subclass for Barbarian that was based on a prestige class from a previous edition of D&D, so I guess it qualifies here? Can I still enter, or has a window closed?


It would qualify, but one of the rules prohibits sharing the subclass outside the contest during the duration. In the past, we've allowed it if the original thread is taken down until the contest concludes, though.

----------


## LumenPlacidum

No problem! I'll join the next one

----------


## Twelvetrees

> I was just getting ready to put the voting thread up when I noticed that I accidentally posted this contest for 3 weeks instead of the customary 4. Extending it an extra week for free, so if you had any edits in the work go ahead and put them up now!


Woo! I've got time for reviews!

Getting this going with a review of *Magitech Mercenary*.

*Spoiler: Magitech Mercenary*
Show

I'm not familiar with the Borderlands character, but I think I got a pretty good idea from the features you laid out. This feels like a high-tech soldier who isn't afraid to get their hands dirty.

*Mechanics Comments*

*SNTNL -*
Force Slug isn't quite a straightforward as it appears. You're using "weapon attack modifier" to determine its bonus to hit, but which weapon attack modifier does this refer to? You probably want to specify an ability modifier + proficiency bonus. You could do something like 2x PB instead if you wanted to keep it simple to read.

*Barrier -*



> The barrier is translucent, glowing with magic, and can be passed through by creatures. Any creature that is on the same side of the barrier that you are and is within 15 feet of the barrier, receives half-cover and can attack or cast spells through the barrier.


This piece is confusing. I don't think I understand why your position in relation to the barrier matters. It seems like it would be easier to say "The barrier provides half cover to creatures behind it." In addition, the wording you've got also implies that creatures can't normally attack or cast spells thorugh the barrier.

As something else to consider, what happens when you are directly to the side of the barrier?

*SNTNL/Barrier/Kill Skill -* 
Every creature has at least one hit die, so the bit in parenthesis doesn't have any functional impact.


Another!

*Spoiler: Battling Bowman*
Show

I gotta admit, Artificer feels like an odd choice of chassis for this. I would have expected ranger, rogue, or fighter. Maybe even monk.

Heh, those are some fun references.  :Small Smile: 


*Mechanics*

*Spells -*
Seems fine, but I didn't delve into the details.

*Quick Quiver -*
Is there a limit to how many items can fit in the quiver?

*Trick Shots -*



> You may make your proficiency mod number of trick shots per long or short rest.


I'm going to be picky. Can you clean up this wording to make it clear how many of these trick shots you get? It's ambiguous right now.

*Legolas' Double Shot -*
Is the "spell attack" language here intentional? And how exactly does this work with Trick Shots? My reading is that you'd choose a Trick Shot projectile and then if you decided to make a Double Shot with that projectile, the Trick Shot would vanish into the ether.

*Trick Shots -*
Boomerang: Does this require another attack roll or does the second attack automatically hit? 

Glue: How long does the reduction to movement speed last? What can be done to remove that penalty?

Multishot: This option outclasses every other option that adds damage, especially because you can aim all of the projectiles at a single creature. Hold on, this outclasses Action Surge when it improves. I think this needs something of a nerf. Suggestions: Force them to target multiple creatures or reduce the damage of each projectile.


*Overall:*
I'm still questioning the choice of Artificer, but the subclass imitaties its source material well. My bar for using homebrew is high, but I'd have no issue with a player who wanted to use this. It seems like it'd be fun.

----------


## Lvl 2 Expert

> It would qualify, but one of the rules prohibits sharing the subclass outside the contest during the duration. In the past, we've allowed it if the original thread is taken down until the contest concludes, though.


Speaking as probably the most recent person who has been allowed to do this: everyone here was very chill about it. I didn't even have the old thread deleted, I just made it a referal to the contest instead. And I can still move the subclass back in there now for purposes of being found if I want to. I got plenty of good feedback here too, which is the real draw.

----------


## Lvl 2 Expert

Okay, so me giving my two cents time. I'm not sure how far I'll get, so I'm starting on the recent end, assuming the first classes posted already got the most feedback.

I'll be saying "I'm not familiar with the source material" a lot in these reviews, which means I have very little idea of how well it connects to the inspiration.

*Spoiler: Way of the Mists Monk*
Show

I'm not familiar with the source material.

There's a lot of content here, through the four metal pairings and the two relatively complex powers each pairing grants. Eventually getting 3 out of the 4 pairings strikes a good balance between customization and not missing out on important features, although I feel like the class certainly wouldn't suffer from the addition of a fifth and even sixth pair as options.

I feel like the choice to make every one of these powers cost ki points does a good job of reigning in their power, even with the small amount of extra ki points.

In fact, I feel like the 17th level feature in particular could even use a little more oomph. And extra turn is very nice, but using this power is also a significant investment of resources. I would almost be tempted to make this either cost 6 ki points or be usable only one per day rather than both.


*Spoiler: Dragonstone Warrior Fighter*
Show

I'm not familiar with the source material. This becomes relevant immediately because at the Dragonstone Transformation section I go "huh, why would dragon powers give you spears and blasts of arcane energy? Why not claws or wings of breath weapons or something connected to dragons? But I'm sure that there is a good connection to the actual inspirational lore here.

An extra skill is nice. Intimidation or persuasions seems like a good thematic choice of two.

Resistance to force damage is exceptional, and on a monster this would make it a strong feature, as force is the damage type you use to hit highly resistant things. But on a PC I think it's quite a fair passive ability, not that many enemies that do force damage. Again, doesn't sound as dragony to me as resistance to fire or lightning or acid or... but enough about my lack of literacy.

The natural weapon counting as magical is fine or even overdue by 10th level, a fighter should do magic weapon damage by then. Especially since the damage is only 1d6, this weapon can certainly use any advantage you can give it.

I think there is a good case to be made for making the arcane blast a bit less strong but removing the restrictions on when you can use it as well (ends your transformation, later on can be used without doing this ones per day). That may provide some flexibility that players may really enjoy. Balance wise I think the current version is good though.

The amount of transformations per day is maybe a little wonky. It starts at three and becomes "unlimited, but no spamming arcane blast" at level 15. I think there is something to be said for a more gradual scale. Maybe start at two per long rest, than one more per short rest at level 7 and than the level 15 power at level 15.

Level 18 seems like a good martial capstone. Your equipment merging with you is even a bit of a penalty sometimes. Given that this is at level 18 I probably wouldn't mind if they could just have this as their every transformation instead of once per day, with maybe only the complete immunity to force damage reduced. But even that's pretty okay in the grand scheme of things. Size large is a little underwhelming for a d&d dragon, but on the other hand I get that from a player perspective it's not great to grow to huge or larger inside a dungeon or such. Maybe an alternative could be giving people a choice at character creation to make the dragon form two size categories larger than their regular size, but then again that delegitimizes the concept that this is a full transformation, a fully transformed dragon shape shouldn't depend on your own size.

----------


## nickl_2000

> I gotta admit, Artificer feels like an odd choice of chassis for this. I would have expected ranger, rogue, or fighter. Maybe even monk.
> 
> Heh, those are some fun references. 
> 
> *Overall:*
> I'm still questioning the choice of Artificer, but the subclass imitaties its source material well. My bar for using homebrew is high, but I'd have no issue with a player who wanted to use this. It seems like it'd be fun.


Thanks for the overall comments.  My idea on Artificer is that you are depending on technology to design and create these arrows, whereas the ranger has more of a mystical connection to it (in my mind).  That being said, this could very easily be ported into a ranger subclass were someone to want to do it.  As for allowing it at your table, I see that as the highest praise one can give a homebrew class or subclass, so thank you!





> *Quick Quiver -*
> Is there a limit to how many items can fit in the quiver?


Nope, this was purposely left empty.  Since you can only put projectiles in there, it shouldn't get out of hand.  Outside of the hijinks of tavern brawler, it's not that abusable and I feel a DM can curtail the tavern brawler hijinks easily enough.




> *Trick Shots -*
> 
> I'm going to be picky. Can you clean up this wording to make it clear how many of these trick shots you get? It's ambiguous right now.


Please be picky, I would rather someone be picky and therefore make it cleaner overall.  I changed to wording to match the battlemaster's maneuvers more closely.

"You get proficiency mod trick shots.  You regain all of your expended trick shots when you finish a short or long rest."





> *Legolas' Double Shot -*
> Is the "spell attack" language here intentional? And how exactly does this work with Trick Shots? My reading is that you'd choose a Trick Shot projectile and then if you decided to make a Double Shot with that projectile, the Trick Shot would vanish into the ether.


It was actually, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  I removed the language to make it a normal ranged attack.  The intent of this is that you can't use either of these shots as a trick shot.  So, I made that much more clear.




> *Trick Shots -*
> Boomerang: Does this require another attack roll or does the second attack automatically hit? 
> 
> Glue: How long does the reduction to movement speed last? What can be done to remove that penalty?
> 
> Multishot: This option outclasses every other option that adds damage, especially because you can aim all of the projectiles at a single creature. Hold on, this outclasses Action Surge when it improves. I think this needs something of a nerf. Suggestions: Force them to target multiple creatures or reduce the damage of each projectile.


Added in a 2nd attack roll in boomerang.  An auto-hit is not a good thing :)

My intent on glue is that people who failed the save would have their movement reduced by half for one turn.  I added a few words in to clarify that more.

Good call on multi-shot, that is totally broken (especially at high level).  The concept I was trying to get at with that trick shot is covered by Legolas's Double shot.  So, I removed it entirely.






Also a few more entries, so a few more reviews :)

*Spoiler: Way of the Mists*
Show



*Lurcher* - Do you mean if they are "carrying significant amounts of metal"?  Or is it wearing only?  I was initially worried about the Wisdom check vs other check, but then I saw that you were considered proficient in it.  So, it seems perfectly fine to me.

*Coinshot* - This one confuses me.  If you spend a bonus action are you attacking 1 person or 3 people?  A bonus action to make a ranged attack for 1 ki makes sense (even 2 since then it will equal flurry of blows).  As for the ranged attack, that one confuses me.  Does that have a ki cost, or are you just able to do it without a ki cost?

*Pewterarm* - How long do the temp hp last for?  Normal duration (until the next rest)?

*Rioter* - If there are 5 creatures within 60 feet of you and you spend 3 ki, how do you determine who must make the save?  Do you choose?

*Allomantic Reserves* - Thanks for adding in the line at the end where they are lost.  That's an important distinction

*Atium* - Even better than an action surge.  I like this a lot.


This is a really, really good subclass.  You get the flavour of the series and abilities down incredibly well, while keeping it both fun and balanced.  There are a few minor touch ups needed, but not much at all.




*Spoiler: Masked Menace Rogue*
Show



*Alter Ego* - Is there any mechanical gains you get from this?  Does it give people disadvantage on an insight check to figure out who you are?  Does it protect you from "Locate" spells or divination spells?  It probably doesn't need it anything as this feels mostly flavourful, but I had to ask.

It is unusual that you don't get a bonus action usage for the rogue at level 3.  I feel like Alter Ego and Quick Change are more fluff abilities than impactful combat abilities.  I wouldn't mind seeing quick change and alter ego combined and a smaller thing be added for a bonus action.  Maybe some sort of insult, quip, or other witty dialogue that does something to an opponent?

*Rumored Reputation* - Fear not my Friends seems pretty weak.  You can replicate this ability with a healing kit that costs 2gp for 10 uses.  When I saw the name of this, I really expected that it would provide a bonus against fear and charm for your allies.

There is a lot of good fluff and flavour in this subclass.  I can feel the Zorro vibes to it.  However, it feels a little bit combat light and weak to me.  You aren't really giving the rogue much more to do during combat than they get from the base class Rogue.  Other ideas that might fit into this theme if you wanted to add more.

Some sort of charm ability - Zorro is a charmer
Vicious Mockery as a bonus action - Insult sword fighting is a thing
Weakened deflect missiles as a reaction - doing amazing things with a sword
Dodge as a bonus action - How do they keep missing with ranged attacks?
Fancy jumps to get through enemy spaces safely

There is nothing bad about this subclass at all.  It fits the theme really well and would make a very fun character to roleplay, I just don't feel it would keep up with other pre-existing options.

----------


## RickAsWritten

> Woo! I've got time for reviews!
> 
> Getting this going with a review of *Magitech Mercenary*.
> 
> *Spoiler: Magitech Mercenary*
> Show
> 
> I'm not familiar with the Borderlands character, but I think I got a pretty good idea from the features you laid out. This feels like a high-tech soldier who isn't afraid to get their hands dirty.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback, lotsa good points.  I made notes in _italics_ in the spoiler.

----------


## Snowben Gaming

> I was just getting ready to put the voting thread up when I noticed that I accidentally posted this contest for 3 weeks instead of the customary 4. Extending it an extra week for free, so if you had any edits in the work go ahead and put them up now!


Huh. Cool. I guess I've got time have a proper look at all of the earlier entries (although I'm not sure there's much left to be said.), but first: I have some feedback to respond to.




> I'm not familiar with the source material. This becomes relevant immediately because at the Dragonstone Transformation section I go "huh, why would dragon powers give you spears and blasts of arcane energy? Why not claws or wings of breath weapons or something connected to dragons? But I'm sure that there is a good connection to the actual inspirational lore here.


Yeah, Corrin (the inspiration) is... weird, all of their dragon powers are _water_ based (but it's specifically _magical_ because it scales with their magic stat, hence force damage, as it has no other defining characteristics that would suggest another damage type. If anyone has a better idea for a damage type, then I'm all ears though) and their arm literally becomes a weird magical energy-based spear-looking thing with stands of... _dragon flesh(?)_ (something physical growing out of them at any rate) wrapped around it.




> Resistance to force damage is exceptional, and on a monster this would make it a strong feature, as force is the damage type you use to hit highly resistant things. But on a PC I think it's quite a fair passive ability, not that many enemies that do force damage. Again, doesn't sound as dragony to me as resistance to fire or lightning or acid or... but enough about my lack of literacy.


Yeah, I'm glad it's not too OP to just give force resistance flat out, I figured it wouldn't be due to force's rarity, but I just though I'd check.




> The natural weapon counting as magical is fine or even overdue by 10th level, a fighter should do magic weapon damage by then. Especially since the damage is only 1d6, this weapon can certainly use any advantage you can give it.
> 
> I think there is a good case to be made for making the arcane blast a bit less strong but removing the restrictions on when you can use it as well (ends your transformation, later on can be used without doing this ones per day). That may provide some flexibility that players may really enjoy. Balance wise I think the current version is good though.


Hmm... good points. I guess I could probably swap the 7th and 10th level abilities around? But I'm not sure how comfortable I am with the other part of dragonfang (arcane blast not ending the transformation and especially being able to substitute it for the last attack from your extra attack) at 7th level. 

Arcane Blast's limitations are because Corrin uses the attack it's based on exclusively as a finisher move in a combo they can do (which is why it's the last attack) and they always ends his transformation after the attack (although they do revert back after his normal attacks as well, so I could remove the bit about it ending your transformation as long as I decrease the damage a bit, as enabling it to be used as part of extra attack is still a good feature in its own right.) But I think I'm gonna leave it alone. For now, at least.

The natural weapon was originally 1d8, but I changed it because it's a _light_ weapon, so you can dual wield (the highest damage a light weapon does is 1d6 iirc). I could always increase its damage back up to 1d8 at 7th or 10th level. Probably 7th and leave the features where they are.




> The amount of transformations per day is maybe a little wonky. It starts at three and becomes "unlimited, but no spamming arcane blast" at level 15. I think there is something to be said for a more gradual scale. Maybe start at two per long rest, than one more per short rest at level 7 and than the level 15 power at level 15.


Fair enough, I modelled the uses off the samurai's fighting spirit, although that's probably a terrible idea based on the power difference between the two. I'm not sure how I feel about the certain amounts of uses being regained on different rests though, as that just seems wrong to me, unless you mean something like the wizard's arcane recovery (you still have the same amount of uses but you can regain one on a short rest, but you can only do so once per long rest), in which case, that seems ok. I'll definitely do something about the number of uses though. Proficiency mod uses perhaps? And I've just realised that the transformation is much more in line with the barbarian's rage than it is with anything a fighter subclass gets (albeit with drastically different abilities than rage), and that barbarians don't get unlimited rages until level _20_. So now I'm wondering if giving effectively unlimited uses (technically not unlimited as you only get an extra one back when you roll initiative, so if you're in a combat that lasts more than 1 min, you could run out) is way too powerful, so I might limit the initiative recovery to once or twice per long rest and increase the uses of the transformation gradually.




> Level 18 seems like a good martial capstone. Your equipment merging with you is even a bit of a penalty sometimes. Given that this is at level 18 I probably wouldn't mind if they could just have this as their every transformation instead of once per day, with maybe only the complete immunity to force damage reduced. But even that's pretty okay in the grand scheme of things. Size large is a little underwhelming for a d&d dragon, but on the other hand I get that from a player perspective it's not great to grow to huge or larger inside a dungeon or such. Maybe an alternative could be giving people a choice at character creation to make the dragon form two size categories larger than their regular size, but then again that delegitimizes the concept that this is a full transformation, a fully transformed dragon shape shouldn't depend on your own size.


As for the equipment, I'm gonna change it to what druids get for wild shape (merge, wear or drop). As for uses of full transformation... I could make it all transformations, but I think I'd rather leave it as only a limited amount of transformations (although I could increase it). The size is based on Corrin as he becomes what I can only assume to be large.

_Conclusion:_I'm probably going to hold off from making any changes just yet, as I want to make sure any change I do make is better than just leaving it.

----------


## Snowben Gaming

Well, since I said I'd review them when they happened:
*Spoiler: Metals of the Way of the Mists*
Show

For the most part, all of these seem really cool to me, so I don't _really_ have much to say about most of them, so I'll just comment on the ones that I do have actual feedback for.
*Pewterarm:* Pretty sure someone already mentioned this, but does the temp HP have a time limit or is it just until the next long rest?

*Rioter:* This counting as the attack action for flurry of blows seems a tad strong (but that may just be me), otherwise, this is fine.

Yeah... that's it from me. I thought I'd have more to say, but then I actually read the metals, and I didn't really have anything much to say.

----------


## Twelvetrees

*Battling Bowman* looks good, nickl_2000. I've been turning Emerald Archer over in my mind trying to find anything cheesy but haven't run across anything yet. One more small note: Is the Rocket Trick Shot supposed to increase to 2d8 and 3d8 at higher levels or was the switch from 1d8 to 2d6 and 3d6 intentional?

*Magitech Mercenary* makes more sense to me now, RickAsWritten. I think I may have misread the pieces about hit dice on my first read because I'm not seeing anything wrong with them when I took another look.


More reviews!

*Spoiler: Library Sciences*
Show

This has a fun flavor, but anything that summons a plethora of creatures makes me nervous. Action economy is king and tilting it in your favor can cause some wild swings in how difficult a fight is.

I'm interested to see the noncombat aspects of this one as well.


*Mechanics*

*Collection of Tomes -*
No. This blows the College of Lore's Bonus Proficiencies out of the water in comparison. This is equivalent to proficiency in every skill except Acrobatics, Athletics, Stealth, and Sleight of Hand. But better because it also gives expertise to anything you were already proficient in.

My advice would be to give this a certain number of uses or to copy the Lore Bard feature instead.

*Loose Characters -*
This is roughly equivalent to using Animate Dead to create skeletons, except at level 3 instead of level 5. It's ridiculously good when first acquired but becomes less and less useful as you continue to gain levels. I don't have good ideas on how to balance this because it has all the usual issues with summoning and trying to pare that back runs directly counter to the aim of this subclass.

*Heroism and Villainy -*
This preserves the usefulness of Loose Characters for a little longer. Like that feature, it starts out strong then gets less useful. I think I get what you were going for, but I think the Protagonist/Antagonist would need to continue to grow more powerful to really capture the feeling that you've made someone real.

This feature also opens up the option to _Bless_ your party without needing to concentrate. You can create an Acolyte, have them _Bless_ the party and then they can run away from combat. It's low on the cheese scale, but it definitely feels like cheese.

*Worlds Collide -*
This is cool, but confusing. A couple of comments:



> When used in a void, thin air, or on the Astral Plane this feature creates a 40 ft radius sphere of _terrain appropriate terrain including a breathable atmosphere and functional versions of structures or vehicles that would have been found there._ You can use this feature once and regain its use when you complete a long rest or expend a spell slot of 7th level or above to use it again.


Emphasis mine. What does this mean? Can you create anything you like? If you create terrain in midair, does it fall?

If this effect doesn't target thin air/void/Astral Plane can it go through solid objects? Do you get to choose the terrain for the sections that don't mesh with objects? Can this pass through something like a wall of force?


*Spoiler: Path of the Titan*
Show

This is amazing and fits with barbarian really well. I knew I was predisposed to like this subclass when I started coming up with character ideas before I even finished reading it.

I love that it feels like a quintessential barbarian and does so in a way that is distinct from the Berserker.


*Mechanics*

*Titan's Grip -*
Gigantic weapons! This works well, especially because it acts like a miniature version of GWM, but I think your calculations from the Q&A section are missing one crucial point: This ability actively encourages using ASIs to bump Constitution instead of Strength. Barbarians already get more out of higher Constitution than any other class. If it increases their accuracy as well, that will probably tip the scale enough for people to make that choice.

*Destroyer -*
I'm not going to lie, I'm a sucker for terrain destruction. This ability hits the exploration pillar of the game in a way that few other abilities in the game do and makes my imagination churn with the possibilities.

*Clash -*
This feels really similar to the Berserker's Retaliation, except four levels earlier and better. Even with resistance from rage factoring in after you've already reduced the damage, you've still got a good chance to reduce the damage to zero.

Personally, I think a feature that allowed you to knock foes backwards would serve better at this level.

*Titanic Mastery -*
Titan's Reach is the only one of these that sticks out to me as unlikely to be chosen. I'm not seeing anything in particular with the rest. Titan's Reach conflicts with Clash and would work better with Sentinel and PM, but taking feats keeps your accuracy low. It's in an awkward spot right now in comparison to the rest and I think an attack ability like the other options would make it a more attractive choice.

Maybe something like adding a rider to knock creatures prone when you make a melee attack? You could limit it to once per turn if it feels too strong to get on every attack.

----------


## nickl_2000

> *Battling Bowman* looks good, nickl_2000. I've been turning Emerald Archer over in my mind trying to find anything cheesy but haven't run across anything yet. One more small note: Is the Rocket Trick Shot supposed to increase to 2d8 and 3d8 at higher levels or was the switch from 1d8 to 2d6 and 3d6 intentional?


I spent a fair amount of time reading through spells on DNDBeyond to see what wouldn't make sense or would be broken.  The most broken things I could think of either required costly components (Find Familiar, Revivify) or concentration (hex, hunter's mark, spirit guardians), or have a longer casting time (Find Steed), this the restrictions.  Yet it still leaves lots of options open (suggestion, water breathing, cure wounds, catnap, darkvision, dispel magic, fireball, speak with dead).  I think in a game the DM could open a few more options in a spell by spell basis, but how I limited it makes it more viable for general use.  I actually see this as more of a utility ability than one that has direct combat implications, which is why I also give the 1 free trick shot and the ranged increments being doubled.

Thanks for noticing the Rocket Trick Shot, that is absolutely a copy/paste typo and wasn't intended.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> [B]
> More reviews!
> 
> *Spoiler: Library Sciences*
> Show
> 
> This has a fun flavor, but anything that summons a plethora of creatures makes me nervous. Action economy is king and tilting it in your favor can cause some wild swings in how difficult a fight is.
> 
> I'm interested to see the noncombat aspects of this one as well.
> ...


Thank you for the feedback!
Collection 
I think I will leave it, but require a minute for the benefit to kick in. Yes its still amazing, and yes those skills are usually only relevant when youd have the extra minute, but its something a bad guy can take away. 

Loose characters
Its actually significantly worse than animate dead in most respects. Skeletons dont need to eat or breathe, send them down a hallway to see if its trapped is fine, they cant talk back. The group of helpers this summons can do a most things (certainly fewer problems in towns) but theyre still people. Admittedly when you get it theyll be amazing till level 7 or so, but then theyre practically the Knight background feature. 

Heroism and Villainy
As I recall this also turned your NPC into a turret for your spells? I think that and some of the other options (thug pack tactics) are good enough, especially since the Acolyte can throw some buffs and heals. 

Worlds Collide 
as written should probably be used as it states otherwise youre asking the DM to make up rules for it. 
so yes, you could summon a small island in the air and drop it. If I were the DM Id just turn the 8d10 force into 8d10 bludgeoning and create rough terrain (a downgrade from the mandatory half move without acrobatics check and loss of cover). 

No, you dont get to choose what gets hit beyond not these creatures.  So its pretty cool to go to a town besieged by undead and drop it stating no living creatures and nuke just the monsters, though the townies might not appreciate how a whole bunch of fantasy houses are sticking out of their houses at odd angles with corpses or undead fused into them afterward. 

Its utility really ends at basic equipment, vehicles, and shelters in places where none exist and in combat it creates a damage dealing restraining obstacle course. 

I will try and tighten up the language though.

----------


## Phhase

Some minor Pyro tweaks:

Burn damage at the end of the turn rather than the beginning.
Stipulation for ignition is now "Once per spell, per creture, *per turn*", so that a creature hit by 5 _Flaming Missiles_ is set on fire once, but hitting someone with a weapon set on fire by _Arcane Weapon_ 2 turns in a row adds 2 burn.

Interesting note - if you're out of spell slots, you _could_ use alchemist's fire to trigger Slice the Wick!

----------


## Twelvetrees

Speaking of the Pyro, I've got a review for it.

*Spoiler: Pyromaniac*
Show

This is going to be silly, isn't it? Oh, good.  :Small Amused: 

I'm surprised at the choice of sorcerer for the chassis, given that spells will give the character many more options than burning everything to a crisp. I feel like it dilutes the strength of the concept, but it's time to find out.

*Mechanics*

*Flame Magic -*
This is useful for getting fire-themed spells but given the subclasses in Tasha's I'm surprised you're not giving these as bonus spells known.

*When all you have is a match -*
I'm not sure this is a benefit at all. It makes your magic really hot and burning, but devils and anything fire resistant or immune are going to give you nightmares.

*Consuming Inferno -*
The longer a fight goes, the better this is. Its baseline use is worse than the Draconic sorcerer's Elemental Affinity, but given enough time, it's better. I'm cautiously saying this is balanced, but this is an ability I'd be keeping a close eye on in an actual game.

*Slice the Wick -*
I'm confused by this feature. Can you explain it? Most sorcerers aren't going to be great with weapons and nothing else in this subclass makes you better with them. Everything else focuses on your spells. Could this be replaced by some sort of spell attack in melee?

*Everything Burns -*
Soulflame and Magnesius Rage are obviously the best choices among the bunch. Imposing conditions at will that can't be saved against and have to be removed with an action is extremely strong. At a minimum, if you don't change the effects in any other way, I think they need saving throws to remove the penalty at the end of their turn. Soulflame could likely be limited to one type of save instead.


Here's one for the Way of the Mists as well.

*Spoiler: Way of the Mists*
Show

It's always interesting to see allomancer homebrew because it's so difficult to do right. The sheer number of options are hard to fit into a subclass and they aren't really balanced against one another, so I'm looking forward to seeing what approach you took.

*Mechanics*

*Allomantic Reserves and Augur -*
No real comments here. More ki, some healing, and boosts to saves feels like typical monk features.

*Atium -*
Given that Thief rogues get a very similar ability at the same level and can use it every fight, I see no issue with making this recharge on short rests.

*The Metals -*
_Pewterarm:_ That's a lot of temporary hit points you can give to yourself, especially if you have any ki points left over before you take a short rest. It almost doubles your effective hit points, which means it's probably too strong. I'd suggest limiting how many ki points you can spend on this or making the temporary hit points vanish after an hour to prevent spamming it before resting.

_Smoker:_ How would a creature not be aware that their spell was foiled if they were using something like Detect Thoughts on a creature in the cloud?

_Copper and Bronze:_ Unless you need to boost your party's Stealth, these don't appear to be that attractive of options in comparison to the other options. They give benefits in specific situations only, unlike many of the other metals and could use a boost.

----------


## Lvl 2 Expert

> *Spoiler: Masked Menace Rogue*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Alter Ego* - Is there any mechanical gains you get from this?  Does it give people disadvantage on an insight check to figure out who you are?  Does it protect you from "Locate" spells or divination spells?  It probably doesn't need it anything as this feels mostly flavourful, but I had to ask.
> 
> It is unusual that you don't get a bonus action usage for the rogue at level 3.  I feel like Alter Ego and Quick Change are more fluff abilities than impactful combat abilities.  I wouldn't mind seeing quick change and alter ego combined and a smaller thing be added for a bonus action.  Maybe some sort of insult, quip, or other witty dialogue that does something to an opponent?
> 
> ...


P.S. I haven't forgotten about this, thanks for the feedback! Nor have I forgotten about my promise to check at least some more competitors out. But the time I have for this stuff always seems to slip away for some reason. Going to give it a try on Sunday.

----------


## Phhase

> Speaking of the Pyro, I've got a review for it.
> 
> *Spoiler: Pyromaniac*
> Show
> 
> This is going to be silly, isn't it? Oh, good. 
> 
> I'm surprised at the choice of sorcerer for the chassis, given that spells will give the character many more options than burning everything to a crisp. I feel like it dilutes the strength of the concept, but it's time to find out.
> 
> ...


Thank! I appreciate  :Small Big Grin: .
I may have just made it unclear, those are bonus spells known, I just didn't use a table to organize them since there weren't enough.

The idea behind When All You Have is kinda of an intentional gimp. This way, it enforces the fire flavor, leaves room for power elsewhere, and increases synergy with Consuming Inferno. And if you really, really, _really_ need something that isn't fire damage, you can still use Metamagic to change the element.  That's part of why I picked sorcerer, as well as the fact that you can also get spells that don't have to do with burning things so you're you have a _little_ utility outside of your gimmick.

Slice the Wick is the imported version of Pyro's Flare Gun and Axtinguisher. You trade momentary safety for a powerful finishing move with the potential to kill your opponent outright, solving the matter of the danger you put your fragile self in - if you're careful with it. This is something you'll want to use after stacking burn on your opponent several times, so that you cash out a fat stack of fire damage (the burn damage is maximized!). Additionally, while it is admittedly an edge case, a guaranteed critical hit can be very powerful, especially if you have rogue levels (Sneak Attack), paladin levels (any Smite), or warlock (Eldritch Smite). I was actually more worried about this being a problem than anything else.

Are they, though? I see your point on Soulflame's saves, what about a flat penalty instead? As to Magnesious Rage, while blinding _is_ a good condition, I contest that other options are also pretty good. Sonic has serious AoE potential, more monsters can heal than you think, and poison causes them to be on fire no matter what - even underwater. Consider that if you blind someone and don't move position immediately after, they can still attack you at disadvantage, and there's nothing that says enemies can't put each other out or find some other way to defend against burning.

----------


## Twelvetrees

> The idea behind When All You Have is kinda of an intentional gimp.


That makes more sense now. I appreciate the elaboration.




> Slice the Wick is the imported version of Pyro's Flare Gun and Axtinguisher. You trade momentary safety for a powerful finishing move with the potential to kill your opponent outright, solving the matter of the danger you put your fragile self in - if you're careful with it. This is something you'll want to use after stacking burn on your opponent several times, so that you cash out a fat stack of fire damage (the burn damage is maximized!). Additionally, while it is admittedly an edge case, a guaranteed critical hit can be very powerful, especially if you have rogue levels (Sneak Attack), paladin levels (any Smite), or warlock (Eldritch Smite). I was actually more worried about this being a problem than anything else.


On a pure Sorcerer, it's likely underpowered. A few maximized d4s doesn't add up to a lot of damage, even when added to a weapon crit. I'd guess it would be a bit better than casting _firebolt_. The fact that it works best with multiclassing means I'm going to reiterate my question from before: Could you replace this with a special melee spell attack that does more damage based on how much damage the creature is taking from being on fire?




> Are they, though? I see your point on Soulflame's saves, what about a flat penalty instead? As to Magnesious Rage, while blinding _is_ a good condition, I contest that other options are also pretty good.


A flat penalty would be an improvement to Soulflame, yes.

I'm doubling down on my assertion that they're better for a couple of reasons - consistency and power. Piranha Solution is the only other option to offer the same consistency and 1 more damage per burn isn't on the same level at all. Every other option is contingent on something being true.

Right now, Soulflame is a free Heighten on all mental saves on every creature that is burning. It can only be removed by a creature taking an action, roughly the equivalent of becoming Incapacitated for one round. Magnesius Rage gives your allies advantage to attack any time you set a creature on fire, which will be all the time. Nigh-permanent advantage on attacks is strong.


More reviews!

*Spoiler: Dragonstone Warrior*
Show

A draconic fighter is not something I can remember seeing before, so I'm curious how you're going to go about this.

*Mechanics*

*Dragonstone Transformation -*
+1 to AC is good, but needing to use light or Medium armor means this just puts you on equal footing with heavy armor. The rest of these abilities are cool, but feel underpowered. The weapon is a little bit better than a whip and Arcane Blast is comparable to a Dragonborn's breath weapon (which is generally seen as underpowered). Arcane Blast is probably fine, but would you consider bumping the damage die of the arcane spear to 1d8?

*Edit:* I noticed I'm directly contradicting an earlier comment from nickl_2000, so I'm going to math this out and compare to the Battle Master.

*Spoiler: Math*
Show

At 3rd level, a Battle Master using a whip can do an extra 4d8 damage with it, average of 18. With the arcane spear doing 1d6 (and an average of 1 more damage per hit than a whip), it would take 18 attacks to draw even.

At 11th level, the Battle Master does 5d10, for an average of 27.5 damage. The arcane spear will take an equal number of attacks to draw even and even at three attacks a turn, it still takes 9 rounds.

At 20th level, the Battle Master does 6d12, for an average of 39 damage. The arcane spear at four attacks a turn will take 10 rounds to draw even.

With the damage being 1d8, 3rd level is closer (9 attacks), 11th level is a reasonable 4-5 rounds, and 20th level is 5 rounds.

I'm standing by my statement: It could be bumped up to 1d8.


Is there a reason the transformation has a specific number of uses instead of being based off an ability modifier?

This feature does an excellent job of showing your draconic nature, which is really cool.

*Blood of the First Dragons -*
That's an uncommon resistance and it continues your established theme. Balanced and good synergy.

*Dragonfang -*
Oh, that's cool. The math of Arcane Blast in place of an attack is quite on par with a Battle Master using all of their Superiority Dice to add to damage. 4d6 to ~2 creatures versus 5d10 total damage to single creatures. It's even a little weaker because of the saves.

Spamming Arcane Blast at this level is no issue and I like that the option now exists to do so.

*Dragon-kin -*
Woohoo, flying Fighter!


*Overall*
Everything works together well and builds atop what has come before. I'm looking forward to seeing what else you can do with subclasses in future competitions.


*Spoiler: Masked Menace*
Show

From the description, I'm hearing what sounds like Assassin and Swashbuckler features. I'm interested to see how you differentiate this build.

*Mechanics*

*Alter Ego -*
Ah ha! Calling out the disguise as clearly a disguise works brilliantly to distinguish this subclass from anything that the Assassin gets and fits really well with the media you're imitating. Cool.

*Quick Change -*
*snort* Heh, this is a fluff feature that hits the exact note you want with this subclass. It's not likely to see much use in play, but when it does it'll be _awesome_.

*No Surprises -*
I'm not seeing any issues with this at low levels but Reliable Talent will apply to your initiative rolls at 11th level and higher now. Given that none of your other subclass abilities gain a benefit from going early in the initiative order, I'm cautiously optimistic about this.

*Rumored Reputation -*
Leading by Example and Fear Itself have vague wording. It would be more straightforward to just give advantage on the associated checks and then follow that statement up with the descriptor so players don't have to justify why they should have advantage on each check. Something like "While wearing your disguise you have advantage on Persuasion checks. Your stirring words call people to action" for Leading by Example.

Fear not my Friends is quite weak for a 9th level feature, especially when in direct comparison to advantage on skill checks. I think you could get away with giving an ability that provides a small amount of actual healing. You could also improve their ability to use Spare the Dying in some fashion.

*Skilled for Two -*
More skills at this level aren't quite as exciting as they are at lower levels, especially for a rogue who likely is already proficient in the skills they care about. If you want to do something with skills, can I suggest an ability that implies such a character's flair for the dramatic, allowing them to add their Charisma modifier to a skill?

*Superb Reputation -*
Being locked into this feature based on your level 9 choice feels bad.

Superb Leading by Example: This is extremely open ended. If you've called some of the other characters to action once, can you use this ability at will as long as you remain within 60 feet of one of them?

Superb Fear not my Friends: This is underpowered for 17th level. It's equivalent to feeding someone a Goodberry. There's so much untapped potential for wild abilities at this point in the game, so throw something spectacular out there, like a Revivify equivalent at will.


*Spoiler: Path of the Reaver*
Show

I'm feeling trepidation with this one. Trade-offs can cause a character's effectiveness to swing wildly back and forth, so I'm hoping your accounted for that in some fashion.

*Mechanics*

*Blood Frenzy -*
Removing damage resistances hacks away at the core idea of a 5e barbarian and acts as a huge penalty. I was aware something like this was coming, so I'm hoping the survival and endurance aspects are brought back somewhere else.The damage bonus is about 0.5 damage more now. Okay, that's not much.More crits means more damage, that makes sense.Improved damage when at low health. You'd mentioned that in the description.
It looks like you end up with a little bit better damage than a Zealot when at low health at the cost of losing damage resistances. That doesn't seem like a great trade-off, especially because damage resistance is something barbarians are known for. Encouraging being at low health is also counter to how health usually works and will embolden players to yo-yo heal such a barbarian and for such a barbarian to remain at low health instead of healing to full.

Could you pare this back and keep the damage resistances but lower the bonus damage?

*Devour -*
I'm not a big fan of being dependent on killing high CR monsters to make best use of this feature. The effectiveness of this is entirely out of the player's control. I get why you've done this so I don't think a suggestion to avoid using CR to balance this will help.

*Aura of Pain* and *Terrifying Fury* both encourage being at low health as well and I'm convinced by this point that more benefits at low health will cause detrimental behavior to game play.


*Overall*

A Reaver is most effective at 1 hit point. All of their subclass abilities except Devour work best at low health and even Devour benefits tangentially because you can kill foes faster and trigger it more. Having one member of the party who wants to be at really low health plays all kinds of havoc with the game expectations. I fear that Reaver characters would have an unusually high death rate because of the inherent risky play they promote.

Despite all of my comments, you accomplished what you set out to do: Making a character that works best when close to death, so kudos for that.

----------


## Snowben Gaming

> A draconic fighter is not something I can remember seeing before, so I'm curious how you're going to go about this.
> 
> *Mechanics*
> 
> *Dragonstone Transformation -*
> +1 to AC is good, but needing to use light or Medium armor means this just puts you on equal footing with heavy armor. The rest of these abilities are cool, but feel underpowered. The weapon is a little bit better than a whip and Arcane Blast is comparable to a Dragonborn's breath weapon (which is generally seen as underpowered). Arcane Blast is probably fine, but would you consider bumping the damage die of the arcane spear to 1d8?
> 
> *Edit:* I noticed I'm directly contradicting an earlier comment from nickl_2000, so I'm going to math this out and compare to the Battle Master.
> 
> ...


Well, the math has spoken: back to 1d8 it is. As for basing the uses off an ability mod: That is a good idea, I guess Con would make the most sense? 




> *Blood of the First Dragons -*
> That's an uncommon resistance and it continues your established theme. Balanced and good synergy.
> 
> *Dragonfang -*
> Oh, that's cool. The math of Arcane Blast in place of an attack is quite on par with a Battle Master using all of their Superiority Dice to add to damage. 4d6 to ~2 creatures versus 5d10 total damage to single creatures. It's even a little weaker because of the saves.
> 
> Spamming Arcane Blast at this level is no issue and I like that the option now exists to do so.
> 
> *Dragon-kin -*
> ...


Thanks! I'm glad everything holds up. I'm _real_ excited to do more of these competitions, they're really fun.

----------


## Ilerien

> *Spoiler: Path of the Reaver*
> Show
> 
> *Mechanics*
> 
> *Blood Frenzy -*
> Removing damage resistances hacks away at the core idea of a 5e barbarian and acts as a huge penalty. I was aware something like this was coming, so I'm hoping the survival and endurance aspects are brought back somewhere else.The damage bonus is about 0.5 damage more now. Okay, that's not much.More crits means more damage, that makes sense.Improved damage when at low health. You'd mentioned that in the description.
> It looks like you end up with a little bit better damage than a Zealot when at low health at the cost of losing damage resistances. That doesn't seem like a great trade-off, especially because damage resistance is something barbarians are known for. Encouraging being at low health is also counter to how health usually works and will embolden players to yo-yo heal such a barbarian and for such a barbarian to remain at low health instead of healing to full.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the review! :) 
All the points you've made here are very much valid (except the one with most effectiveness at 1 HP - a reaver has admittedly narrow window from 1 to barb level HP). It's just... not much could be done when the core idea of the subclass is "it kills better when at low health". Removing resistances actually helps a reaver to reach half hit points more quickly.
The features tend to hand control from a player over to the DM/chance/etc., but it's nothing new in 5e. Wild magic sorcerer is a textbook example.
I have a couple ideas to tweak it a bit.
First, upgrade the damage bonus to d6/d8/d10 so it's more in line with zealot's damage output. Though the zealot doesn't get that fancy crit range improvement.
Second, give some bonus or advantage to death saves?..
Both merit consideration, but I'm unsure if I should implement them.

----------


## Lvl 2 Expert

Going for "I know this source material!" this time, rather than sticking to the reverse order.

*Spoiler: The Cannibal Witch Wizard*
Show

I know this source material!

Mystical cook is good for flavor. Gingerbread house is silly, but not unbalanced. It seems fun!

Fatten them up seems good.

Into the Oven is... confusing me. It turns the house from a goodberry alternative and a werid thematic shelter for the night into some sort of trap. It looks like it works both mechanically and thematically, I just have trouble seeing all the applications and the actual power of this here. It feels a bit strong. Then again, it's for a tenth level wizard, those are strong...

Cook and Eat them is... Don't change it. This is the only place this subclass should go. That just makes me more comflicted about Into the Oven. This feature is certainly not OP in itself, just adding a little bit of healing.


*Spoiler: The Dunedain Ranger*
Show

I know this source material too! Although the one time I've read the whole thing through was before the movies even came out, so...

The bonus spells are good picks.

Hands of a healer seems super strong for a 3rd level feature. Not in a vacuum maybe, but in combination with any half decent healer in the same party? That's massiveT Up to 2x the average hit points, dependably. The extra skill here is fine.

Typically ranger subclasses get a defensive feature at level 7 and an offensive one at level 11, when the fighter gains a third attack and cantrip damage goes up. I do not disagree with these two having been switched around, their power level seems fitting like this, but it is atypical. Ancient Lore in particular feels very thematic too.

Return of the King is a very good ability too, can turn a fight around up to several times per day. Rangers have a bit of an early subclass capstone at level 15, which makes this close to overpowered for that level. Then again, having a high wisdom stat as a ranger is a significant investment, so it's probably okay overall.

----------


## Lvl 2 Expert

> *Spoiler: Masked Menace Rogue*
> Show
> 
> *Alter Ego* - Is there any mechanical gains you get from this?  Does it give people disadvantage on an insight check to figure out who you are?  Does it protect you from "Locate" spells or divination spells?  It probably doesn't need it anything as this feels mostly flavourful, but I had to ask.
> 
> It is unusual that you don't get a bonus action usage for the rogue at level 3.  I feel like Alter Ego and Quick Change are more fluff abilities than impactful combat abilities.  I wouldn't mind seeing quick change and alter ego combined and a smaller thing be added for a bonus action.  Maybe some sort of insult, quip, or other witty dialogue that does something to an opponent?
> 
> *Rumored Reputation* - Fear not my Friends seems pretty weak.  You can replicate this ability with a healing kit that costs 2gp for 10 uses.  When I saw the name of this, I really expected that it would provide a bonus against fear and charm for your allies.
> 
> ...


I added the missing clarification that Fear not my Friends takes a bonus action to use, like the spell I was basing it on. I agree that without that part it is weak. I added a Chandelier Swinger "showoff" option for the reputation features (alongside the existing leader of the masses, team player, lone wolf surviving stuff and scary person options), as well as the option to at level 17 take 2 extra level 9 features instead of an upgrade to the feature you already have. Dodge as a bonus action sounds really thematic and I want to put it in... I just feel like maybe it's a bit much and now the character is just permanently resistant (well, sort of, after a fashion) to all damage.

If I have another epiphany or change my mind on the dodge before the voting thread goes up I might sneak in something else.

I kind of wish I was making a base class or something, so I could just stuff all of these weak but kind of fun ideas into it.

----------


## Twelvetrees

> *Spoiler: The Cannibal Witch Wizard*
> Show
> 
> I know this source material!
> 
> Mystical cook is good for flavor. Gingerbread house is silly, but not unbalanced. It seems fun!
> 
> Fatten them up seems good.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the review!

I should point out that you don't have to add an oven to the house when you create it, which preserves its original usages. I wanted some way to make sure the oven from the story made an appearance and because I already have this subclass creating the house, I thought having the option to add an oven would work.

Would it make more sense to remove the line about being able to automatically succeed on the saving throw? If I did that a Cannibal Witch could end up in their own oven and I'd have a stronger thematic connection to the original fairy tale.


*Spoiler: The Dunedain*
Show

This ought to be interesting. My first thought is that you'll need to differentiate it from the Hunter subclass somehow because this reads like another archetypal ranger. Time to dig into the details and see how that went!

*Mechanics*

*Dunedain Magic -*
I was expecting more nature-based magic, but spells that emphasize leadership and force of presence make sense. I am a little bit worried that because all but one of them require Concentration, they won't see a ton of use.

*Dunedain Endurance -*
I don't know how to judge the balance of this. It's really strong in it's niche, but doesn't do anything if exhaustion doesn't come up in game. I'd probably categorize it as a mostly fluff ability, in which case it works well for its purpose

*Hands of a Healer -*
Subtly strong. This feature allows your party to stretch their resources out much longer and keeps everyone on their feet with ease. I am wondering if you intentionally left out some sources of healing by specifying that the healing had to be from spells or hit dice. It doesn't look like this feature would apply to a Celestial Warlock's Healing Light feature, for example.

*Ancient Lore -*
This ability runs into the usual issue ranger from previous editions of the game had to deal with. Namely, not being able to use it when the creature type you chose isn't present.

The _Foe_ option becomes incredibly strong when the creature type you chose is present. Always-on advantage on attacks is better than the defining ability of Vengeance Paladins.

Given the source material, would you instead consider a feature that allows you to call ghostly undead to serve you?

*Will of the Dunedain -*
Rangers usually gain some ability at this level that gives them more attacks or more attack options, so passive benefits are a little unusual. That being said, immunity to charm and fear nullifies some of the most potent effects that can be used against you. I think you could get away with adding some sort of minor active ability as well.

*The Return of the King -*
Cool. I'm not seeing any issues.


*Overall*
I think the source material is imitated pretty well and thought it was intriguing that you managed to convey leadership ability without the need for Charisma.


*Spoiler: Draconic Elementalist*
Show

This sounds extremely similar to the Draconic Bloodline but feeding off the elements is new. I'm expecting that this subclass will explore that aspect in detail. Time to see if I'm right.

*Mechanics*

*Dragon Link -*
This reads like an improved version of the Draconic Bloodline subclass's 1st level features.

I think you could do something to give different draconic abilities instead, like a dragon's senses or their tail/claws/teeth.

*Draconic Element -*
An at-will ability to take no damage from your chosen element at 1st level is ludicrously powerful, not least because it's in addition to the aforementioned feature.

This probably needs to be bumped up to be a feature you receive at a higher level if you're trying to have this subclass be on par with other sorcerer subclasses.

*Elemental Dragon's Roar -*
The name tricked me into thinking this was going to be a fear effect. Other than that, I think this is cool. It's a dragon's breath weapon.

*Dracoelemental Body -*
Again, this reminds me of the Draconic Bloodline but improved. This is much later in your progression, but it still feels like retreading old ground.

*Dragon Force -*
I understand why most of these bullet points are present. The resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing is one I don't. What draconic aspect is it supposed to represent? A dragon's toughness? I usually imagine scales deflecting blows for dragons instead of meaty hide that absorbs any hit.

----------


## CountDVB

*Spoiler: Draconic Elementalist*
Show

This sounds extremely similar to the Draconic Bloodline but feeding off the elements is new. I'm expecting that this subclass will explore that aspect in detail. Time to see if I'm right.

*Mechanics*

*Dragon Link -*
This reads like an improved version of the Draconic Bloodline subclass's 1st level features.

I think you could do something to give different draconic abilities instead, like a dragon's senses or their tail/claws/teeth.

*Draconic Element -*
An at-will ability to take no damage from your chosen element at 1st level is ludicrously powerful, not least because it's in addition to the aforementioned feature.

This probably needs to be bumped up to be a feature you receive at a higher level if you're trying to have this subclass be on par with other sorcerer subclasses.

*Elemental Dragon's Roar -*
The name tricked me into thinking this was going to be a fear effect. Other than that, I think this is cool. It's a dragon's breath weapon.

*Dracoelemental Body -*
Again, this reminds me of the Draconic Bloodline but improved. This is much later in your progression, but it still feels like retreading old ground.

*Dragon Force -*
I understand why most of these bullet points are present. The resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing is one I don't. What draconic aspect is it supposed to represent? A dragon's toughness? I usually imagine scales deflecting blows for dragons instead of meaty hide that absorbs any hit.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it's a dragon's toughness. This takes inspiration from the anime/manga _Fairy Tail_, specifcially those who use Dragon Slayer Magic, such as the protagonist Natsu. See here if you see what I mean

----------


## Lvl 2 Expert

> Would it make more sense to remove the line about being able to automatically succeed on the saving throw? If I did that a Cannibal Witch could end up in their own oven and I'd have a stronger thematic connection to the original fairy tale.


 True, true. It would also be weirder to properly use as a class feature.

I don't actually really mind having some form of security in your shelter. I mostly feel out of depth judging where this falls on a power scale.

----------


## Lvl45DM!

> Thanks for the review!
> 
> [spoiler=The Dunedain]This ought to be interesting. My first thought is that you'll need to differentiate it from the Hunter subclass somehow because this reads like another archetypal ranger. Time to dig into the details and see how that went!
> 
> *Mechanics*
> 
> *Dunedain Magic -*
> I was expecting more nature-based magic, but spells that emphasize leadership and force of presence make sense. I am a little bit worried that because all but one of them require Concentration, they won't see a ton of use.
> 
> ...


Yes this went under several revisions before even posting because thematically its just...a Ranger. THE Ranger maybe, but still.

I did realize that they are Concentration, but I figured Rangers dont cast that many spells in combat usually. They'll slap on their strongest one and go to work. Besides, Aragorn don't be casting often, so Concentration spells seemed apt.

Endurance is mostly fluff, but also it can make the Ranger stand out in nasty wilderness survival games.

Hands of a Healer, well I didnt want to balance it with every possible version of healing so I simplified it. I always feel like rangers are like thieves from early editions, at their strongest outside of combat so thats what this is for.

Ancient Lore...Yeah I do dislike the limitations of needing your enemy there. Hrng.
Ok I adjusted it. Removed the rider affect from Friend, weakened advantage from Foe, and added Fell Power, for activatable Resistance whenever you want. Its not strong, but its neat.

Will of the Dunedain now lets them cast Command a few times as a bonus action. 




> *Spoiler: The Dunedain Ranger*
> Show
> 
> I know this source material too! Although the one time I've read the whole thing through was before the movies even came out, so...
> 
> The bonus spells are good picks.
> 
> Hands of a healer seems super strong for a 3rd level feature. Not in a vacuum maybe, but in combination with any half decent healer in the same party? That's massive Up to 2x the average hit points, dependably. The extra skill here is fine.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Maybe I'll limit Hands of a Healer to Wis mod people/long rest. So you cant just short rest after every little skirmish and gain the advantage.

Yeah I know how rangers normally go, but the ideas suit the levels better. So yknow, screw normal.

Cheers guys.

----------


## MoleMage

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-Voting-Thread

Voting is upon us!

----------


## nickl_2000

> https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-Voting-Thread
> 
> Voting is upon us!


Will be voting soon, but just so you know you gave Barbarian: Path of the Titan a bit of a bonus this time around (copy and paste error)  :Small Wink: 





> Battling Bowman Artificer - Now this is some good stuff. I'd play this... Heck, I might actually ask my DM if I can next time I need a character.



Thanks, and please do if you can.  If you do, I would absolutely love to hear how it played and could/should be adjusted.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> will be voting soon, but just so you know you gave barbarian: Path of the titan a bit of a bonus this time around (copy and paste error)


Such is the power!

----------


## CountDVB

2 days left everyone for this one!

----------


## MoleMage

> Hokay calling it now. Sorry for my late vote, I got caught up in yardwork yesterday during my usual computing time (darn springtime).
> 
> We had some breakout entries this time, scoring far ahead of the otherwise fairly equal distribution.
> 
> Our third place winner, with 14 points tallied, MoleMage's *Way of the Mists*! You don't need to eat metal, your ki has you covered.
> 
> Our second place winner, with 18 points tallied (and a whopping _4_ picks for first place), Damon_Tor's *Path of the Titan*! I guess we all just really wanted giant weapons.
> 
> And our first place winner, with 19 points tallied (receiving a vote from 9 out of 13 voters), nickl_2000's *Battling Bowman*! Trick arrows like Arcane Archer wishes it had.
> ...


Voting is called, new contest is made! Let's see some leadership!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-Follow-Me!-II

EDIT: I also updated the class representation records in the first post with the data from the last two contests, and the Fighter has unseated the Monk as our most popular base class! The monk's sat on that position for a long while now, so I thought that was interesting.

----------


## CountDVB

For those who wish to make a deal to become the leader, then I present the Pact of the Regulator.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

Monastic Tradition: Way of the Cruel Master is posted.

Not sure if I want to buff it to allow you to order Stunning strikes through your Aspirants.

Brutal Instruction is a step above Commander's strike since it costs no resource and allows you to have the wizard kick for a d10, but Monks are understood to be weaker than fighters as a class and unarmed damage stays behind weapon damage for all 20 levels so I'm not too worried.

----------


## CountDVB

> Monastic Tradition: Way of the Cruel Master is posted.
> 
> Not sure if I want to buff it to allow you to order Stunning strikes through your Aspirants.
> 
> Brutal Instruction is a step above Commander's strike since it costs no resource and allows you to have the wizard kick for a d10, but Monks are understood to be weaker than fighters as a class and unarmed damage stays behind weapon damage for all 20 levels so I'm not too worried.


It definitely looks pretty nice and I like the student becoming the master angle. I would suggest changing the name to like Way of the Sifu or something, since Cruel Master seems kinda on the point (and when it comes to martial arts, a bit redundant since harshness was kinda the default if I remember correctly).

----------


## Ilerien

> Brutal Instruction is a step above Commander's strike since it costs no resource and allows you to have the wizard kick for a d10, but Monks are understood to be weaker than fighters as a class and unarmed damage stays behind weapon damage for all 20 levels so I'm not too worried.


This monk will be stuck using this feature to sic party rogue on enemies.  :Small Big Grin:  And if there's a battlemaster in the party as well, the rogue will be able to make 3 sneak attacks per round.


> While your Aspirants can see you, losing face is unconscionable. When you fail an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw you can expend a point of ki to gain a bonus to the roll equal to the number of Aspirants that can see you, possibly turning a failure into a success.


I think you want to cap this number at your proficiency or wisdom bonus. I mean, if this monk has 20 disciples...





> For those who wish to make a deal to become the leader, then I present the Pact of the Regulator.


A very dedicated face of a party. I like it.
The 10th level feature is a bit clunky not offering an alternative in case a warlock has the proficiencies already, but I think expertise makes up for it.
The martial aspect is less powerful than that of a hexblade, but, well, it's still an opportunity to make a frontliner warlock with pact of the blade and invocations to back it.

----------


## MrStabby

Added the guide - a ranger subclass focussed on supporting those around them.


https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...64&postcount=5

----------


## CountDVB

> A very dedicated face of a party. I like it.
> 
> The 10th level feature is a bit clunky not offering an alternative in case a warlock has the proficiencies already, but I think expertise makes up for it.
> 
> The martial aspect is less powerful than that of a hexblade, but, well, it's still an opportunity to make a frontliner warlock with pact of the blade and invocations to back it.


True though it does say weapon attack so it could apply to any weapon attack, so theres no limits. I guess it would be including improvised weapons or unarmed strikes. 

Yeah, thank you very much for the nice words!

----------


## sengmeng

Wasn't feeling inspired lately, until today. In the spirit of the thread title, I present: The Eldritch Pyramid Schemer Patron. Yes, it's a bookkeeping nightmare, but I hope it's funny enough to overcome that.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> This monk will be stuck using this feature to sic party rogue on enemies.  And if there's a battlemaster in the party as well, the rogue will be able to make 3 sneak attacks per round.I think you want to cap this number at your proficiency or wisdom bonus. I mean, if this monk has 20 disciples...


Pretty sure I limited the number of Aspirants you can have at proficiency, Ill tighten the language if it read differently.  RAW, rogues cant sneak attack with unarmed strikes, so I think that solves that issue.

----------


## Damon_Tor

The Deathtouched Sorcerer is feature-complete, except that there are a few new spells I need to write.

As noted, its core feature is very similar to one I came up with for my College of Fellowship bard a while ago, with a few important differences. This version is significantly stronger, with the sorcerer's shambling horde being both more durable and dealing more damage than the bard's mob: this is because the sorcerer's horde is built out of entities the sorcerer needs to spend spell slots to create, while the bard's followers just show up eager to serve, purely the product of class features.

----------


## Ilerien

> Pretty sure I limited the number of Aspirants you can have at proficiency, Ill tighten the language if it read differently.  RAW, rogues cant sneak attack with unarmed strikes, so I think that solves that issue.


Must've been sleepy when reading your entry. *facepalm* Apologies, this was indeed my bad.


> True though it does say weapon attack so it could apply to any weapon attack, so theres no limits. I guess it would be including improvised weapons or unarmed strikes.


It does allow more options than hexblade's feature, though I can't think of anything more appealing than taking pact of the blade and spirit shroud spell from Tasha's at least for a single-class warlock. If one gets extra attack from multiclassing, there might be alternatives worthy of consideration. Anyway, it's for sure a very good subclass on par with the hexblade.  :Small Smile:

----------


## KragBrightscale

Sengmeng! Youve done it haha.

Pyramid scheme or MLM was exactly where my mind went when I was thinking about this contests theme.

I was playing around with some ideas for how it could be pulled off as a patron but only had a few points sorted out before seeing that you beat me to it.

I got stuck figuring out what resource those below could provide those above. The other way around had plenty of options. Why didnt I think of HP haha or even a hit dice. Nicely done. 

Ill write up my thoughts on what youve got so far along with some of my half baked ideas. I wont be submitting anything this round  as I dont have the time to bring it to the level that is functional.

*Spoiler: Feedback: Eldritch Pyramid Schemer*
Show



I love what youve got, there is a clear structure that could be extended to huge sizes. Still, there are some points which might need tweaking due to that. As it is now, what stops a pyramid schemer from recruiting the whole village they pass through and gaining 50 temp hp + 10 5th lvl longrest slots? other than the fact that there isnt much in it for around 80% of the villagers due to not having access to spell slots as they will likely be out of stock or used by you.

Consider adding a cap to max direct recruits or max temp hp. Charisma Modifier + proficiency bonus? Class lvl based? Regular Incremental increase? No idea. 

My idea was for recruits to start with access to limited use cantrips (mainly utility ones or low damage ones) and maybe eventually an invocation (that you already have selected for yourself) if they recruited enough followers. This would make joining your pyramid scheme tempting enough. 

Only the best would get access to a spell slot (but again I limited its level to lvl 1) though I wasnt sure if that should cost the use of your own spell slots. You solved the resource issue nicely by giving them a slot their own per 5 recruits.

Question: can other PC characters offer 1hp and recruit 5 followers to effectively get an extra spell slot each? Why wouldnt they. Small price to pay for a lvl 5 slot, or eventually a lvl 9 spell once a day. 

At higher levels, I considered allowing the highest ranking followers to take a single class level in warlock (even if they didnt have the required multi class ability scores) with you as the patron. The cost for them? They spend their XP (to level up) but again, what would you gain from that? So I got stuck. 

Question about lvl 14 ability. Say you bring along a couple of your direct followers, can you now effectively cast each mystic arcanum 3 times? Pretty powerful.

Thoughts on the Spell list: it makes sense as spells the top of the pyramid should use. Lots of enchantment, you are manipulating the masses. Great, however, are these spells you want your followers to use? 

As the leader of the pyramid, spells are the products you are marketing. Consider throwing in a couple practical spells that you learned specifically because you knew others would want them. Ones that you can use in your elevator sales pitch.

Plant growth would be great for farmers who follow you. Aura of vitality or a minor healing spell could allow your followers to create a positive brand image in various towns. Faithful hound would be popular amongst travelers and merchants that need to spend the night outside. Visually impressive evocation magic like burning hands or ice storm would be an instant hit amongst youngsters who failed to get into a Wizards university.



Just some ideas. 

Overall, its a fun entree. Youd probably end up playing a eldritch blasting meat shield with all that temp hp. At least in the morning after a good long rest. Ability to tank drops as day goes on.

----------


## Snowben Gaming

My entry for this contest is up, I present to thee: the Circle of the Pack.

I have reservations about my entry, for multiple reasons:
I may have diluted the leadership aspect with melee weapon-ness (it's designed to be the druid's equivalent of bladesinger or swords bard with a bunch of leadership thrown in.)Balance Issues, mostly with Pack Hunting and Alpha's CommandThe wording of Pack Hunting was hard to do. Its intended to allow _all_ other creatures have advantage on their first melee weapon attack against the designated target as long as this occurs before your next turn.I'm not sure how "druidy" it really feels.

----------


## Damon_Tor

Finished adding the new spells for the deathtouched Sorcerer. All three are wizard/cleric spells available to the Deathtouched sorcerer only through his bonus spells.

EDIT: Lesser Animate Dead is renamed "Grim Puppet". This is a more interesting name, and draws attention to the fact that the summoned creature has no autonomy.

----------


## CountDVB

> Circle of the Pack: A Druid Circle
> 
> Many animals are pack hunters, and druids of the Circle of the Pack seek to emulate this method of combat with their allies. Regarding their traveling companions and allies as pack mates, these druids often end up as the "alphas" of raiding bands or shock troops and don't shy away from the front lines of a combat.
> 
> *Bonus Proficiencies*
> When you choose this circle at 2nd level, you gain proficiency in simple and martial weapons.
> 
> *Pack Hunting*
> Also at 2nd level, you become a true pack hunter, leading your allies in tactics designed to pick off the opposition through numbers. Once on your turn, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can designate that creature as your prey. Until the start of your next turn, the first time a creature makes a melee attack against your prey, they have advantage on the attack roll. Multiple creatures can benefit from this advantage, although they can only do so once each time you designate a creature as your prey.
> ...


*Pack Hunting* seems to be pretty all right though let me try with wording: 
*Spoiler*
Show

Also at 2nd level, you see your comrades as your pack and your wild instincts help you in leading the offensive with your pack on your prey. Once on your turn, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can designate that creature as the your pack's prey. Until the start of your next turn, all creatures you deem friendly have advantage on melee attack rolls against the creatue designated, though only on their first attack on the creature.

You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of once), regaining all uses upon completing a long rest.


I would recommend changing Alpha's Command to something else (maybe a free usage of Conjure Animals with buff to them?) if you are insecure on your subclass being sufficiently druid-flavored.

*Heart of the Pack* is also good Here is another potential way of wording it if you like:
*Spoiler*
Show

Starting at 14th level, you are an inspiration for your packmates, strengthening their resolve. All friendly creatures within 60 ft of you that can see or hear you are immune to being charmed and frightened along with having advantage on Wisdom saving throws.

----------


## Snowben Gaming

> *Pack Hunting* seems to be pretty all right though let me try with wording: 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Also at 2nd level, you see your comrades as your pack and your wild instincts help you in leading the offensive with your pack on your prey. Once on your turn, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can designate that creature as the your pack's prey. Until the start of your next turn, all creatures you deem friendly have advantage on melee attack rolls against the creatue designated, though only on their first attack on the creature.
> 
> You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of once), regaining all uses upon completing a long rest.


Yeah, that wording is a lot better, thanks! I'm glad to hear the feature holds up in terms of balance though.




> I would recommend changing Alpha's Command to something else (maybe a free usage of Conjure Animals with buff to them?) if you are insecure on your subclass being sufficiently druid-flavored.


 Yeah, replacing Alpha's Command with something more druidy is definitely a good idea, but I'm worried free/buffed conjure animals would step to heavily on shepherd druid's toes. I'll think about this. 




> *Heart of the Pack* is also good Here is another potential way of wording it if you like:
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Starting at 14th level, you are an inspiration for your packmates, strengthening their resolve. All friendly creatures within 60 ft of you that can see or hear you are immune to being charmed and frightened along with having advantage on Wisdom saving throws.


Yeah, that's better wording.

Thanks a bunch! I'm gonna go implement the improved wording now, and I'll think about druidy replacements for Alpha's Command.

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## nickl_2000

The first draft of my entry Barbarian, Path of the Horde Leader is out there and read for someone to take a look at.


I will take a look at everyone else's entries on Monday :)

----------


## Damon_Tor

A few changes to Deathtouched:
Reinstated the AoE "weakness" of the horde. Being in the swarm is actually still protecting them _some_ from AoE spells/abilities (as the swarm can pack more than one creature into each 5*5 square) but now a deathtouched sorcerer at least has a reason to be concerned about such tactics.Added two more tiers of damage to Grasping Horde, keeping the damage more consistent with the number of undead in the horde and generally making the tactic more powerful, creating less incentive for the player to make many small hordes instead of fewer larger ones.Added a "your minions' attacks count as a magical" to the 14th level ability. This is very late when compared to some other summoning classes, but as a sorcerer you have plenty of tools for dealing magical damage, so I'm not terribly concerned.

----------


## CountDVB

> Yeah, that wording is a lot better, thanks! I'm glad to hear the feature holds up in terms of balance though.
> 
> Yeah, replacing Alpha's Command with something more druidy is definitely a good idea, but I'm worried free/buffed conjure animals would step to heavily on shepherd druid's toes. I'll think about this. 
> 
> Yeah, that's better wording.
> 
> Thanks a bunch! I'm gonna go implement the improved wording now, and I'll think about druidy replacements for Alpha's Command.


I have a suggestion! Maybe something with Wild Shape? You Wild Shape into an "Alpha" form of that beast. The "Alpha" form could have its physical stats (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution) increased by your profiency bonus along with maybe its AC also getting an increase? 

The "Alpha" form could also have the function of your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

Maybe it could even be a size larger than normal, which explains the further boosted stats. 

Could be a once per long rest sort of thing.

----------


## Snowben Gaming

> I have a suggestion! Maybe something with Wild Shape? You Wild Shape into an "Alpha" form of that beast. The "Alpha" form could have its physical stats (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution) increased by your profiency bonus along with maybe its AC also getting an increase? 
> 
> The "Alpha" form could also have the function of your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.
> 
> Maybe it could even be a size larger than normal, which explains the further boosted stats. 
> 
> Could be a once per long rest sort of thing.


Nice! Yeah, something to do with Wildshape is a good idea, as the subclass doesn't currently do anything with it, so some feature that uses it would be a good idea. I'll go brainstorm (and also maybe run some math).

----------


## CountDVB

> Nice! Yeah, something to do with Wildshape is a good idea, as the subclass doesn't currently do anything with it, so some feature that uses it would be a good idea. I'll go brainstorm (and also maybe run some math).


And it would make sense after all. How else to show you are the alpha/pack leader? By becoming the apex of that beast?

also, I hope everyone had a happy Easter!

----------


## nickl_2000

I got delayed in my reviews, but here we go!

*Spoiler: Way of the Cruel Master*
Show



*Aspirants* - The secondary ability here is pretty powerful, but you have it gated pretty well with the # of aspirants and ki usage.  It is a little bit odd that it triggers when an aspirant can see you, but the bonus is based on the number of aspirants that you can see.  There is a potential situation here were it could be triggers by an invisible aspirant seeing you, yet you not getting any bonus to your roll.

*Brutal Instruction* - I'm very glad that you make this unarmed strikes only, that really gets rid of the cheese for a rogue getting an extra sneak attack during all of your turns.  I do have one question, if you take an attack action at level 3 and make someone else make the attack, do you still get the Monk unarmed strike as a bonus action?

*Dodge!* - I don't see any issues here.  There is some funky interactions with initiative order, but you can plan for that.

*Disciplined Hearts* - This could potentially be a huge amount of THP gained, or none depending.  If you have a wizard who is successfully avoiding combat and doesn't take any damage, they wouldn't actually gain an THP through this feature.  On the other hand, you have someone spending 10 HD of healing (which can certainly happen), they would get, on average, 49 THP.  Which is huge.  Since it's gated by the HD spent, it is likely fine in practice.  I don't wonder if you would see more reliable, and less swingy, results if you gave everyone Wis Mod + Martial Arts Die Roll during a long rest.  That puts the feature a little bit weaker than the Inspiring Leader feat, but similar.

*One School, Many Masters* - I'm not totally sure I like the idea of Monks using two handed weapons as monk weapons, but you are at level 17 already.  So, the difference in damage is minimal (1d10 v 1d12).  I think the biggest problem here will come in when you combine weapons and feats.  I spend 3 ki points and for the next hour I've picked up on how to use a great sword and have GWM running for a monk.  Same thing on Sharpshooter.  

What happens if I copy half feats?  Do I get the stat bonus?  Do I only get the stat bonus they chose, or can I get anything?  How about things that let me choose bonuses (skill expert feat, skilled, Magic Initiate)?  How about something like tough, do I get bonus HP and then lose those in an hour?

What spells can I copy?  Can I only copy prepared spells, or do I get access to all their known spells?  What is the cast mod for stolen spells?  Can I borrow cantrips for 1 Ki and then cast them for free?

What is the action cost to borrow abilities?  Or can I just do it on the fly?  Hmm, someone is falling, I will borrow feather fall from the Wizard and cast it immediately.

Can I borrow an ability from someone who is unconscious?  The healer drops, I take healing word from the healer and immediately cast it on them.


I like this class, it is a good representation of a brutal martial arts master.  I have lots and lots of questions on the level 17 ability that need clarification before this is used at a table though.




*Spoiler: Warlock: The Regulator*
Show



Wow, this is really front loaded.  Even for a Warlock.  You get 2 cantrips (one being one of the best in the game), 2 skill expertise, medium armor, shields, and all weapons.  That is absolutely killer.  I might look at reducing some of the power here.  Maybe give the skills and not expertise until later levels?  Give the choice of Message or Guidance?  Something like that.

*Your Force of Will* - Cha Mod to weapon attacks at level 6 is pretty late, but I prefer seeing this later than level 1.  Hexblade is amazing because this is a level 1 ability.  By level 6 it's a nice option and not overpowered.  Question on the bonus to skills and throws, when do you declare you are going to add the bonus?  Before the roll, after the roll, after the roll and knowing the results?  For an ability like this it is a very important distinction.

*Judging Gaze* - Wow, more expertise and skills learned.  You are a skill machine in this class and a social god.  I think 2 more here is a little much as well personally.

*Authorative Paradigm* - This may be more personal opinion, but I don't like seeing reliable talent on other classes besides rogue.  Rogues are supposed to be the skill monkeys and this takes away from them.  As I was reading this class, I expected to see something more along the lines of a free casting of Dominate X at this ability, but that is me.


You have a different take on management than I expected on this one.  I expected this to be more focused on domination and charm than skills.  The skills aren't a bad take, but I think they are to much overall in this subclass.  It's certainly worth playing and using though and could make a very compelling character




*Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Deathtouched*
Show



*Death Magic* - I've always wondered why free spells ended at level 5 for spell casting classes.  I don't see anything wrong with going higher personally, and the sorcerer needs all the spells it can get.

*One With Death* - I think this should leave some DM fiat on it for the charming.  Technically by your rules, if I cast Mage Armor on my charmed skeleton buddy it turns hostile on me.  I do think you need to have a range on charming undead critters as well.  As it is currently, you technically instantly charm all undead creatures in the world.

*Shambling Horde* - You need 4 critters to make a hoard.  What happens if you lose control of one of them?  Is it still a hoard?  I also, wouldn't mind seeing a bonus to HP depending on how many creatures you used to make the hoard as a way to boost it slightly.  Nevermind all of this.  You completely took care of these questions/problems/suggestions in the stat block.

*Infectious Necrosis* - Seems good to me, a good way to get more, but sensibly limited.

*Undying Loyalty* - An appropriate capstone, although a little bit boring since it's a passive ability instead of an active one.  The nice thing about it is that it makes everything else that you have learned better.


Spells
*Grim Puppet* - Should this be concentration?  Having 2 Zombies under your command at level 1 is really strong.


A dark, evil leader is absolutely still a leader.  I do like how you can start your minionmancy at level 1 instead of having to wait until level 3 to.




*Spoiler: The Guide*
Show



*Mark Target* - I'm glad this is per long rest as otherwise this would be way to powerful.  How long does the AC penalty last?  Do you need to concentrate on it per the Tasha's Favored Foe replacement?  Is the penalty only against you or against everyone?

*Lead the Charge* - Even though this is a high level I am not a fan of this being used at will.  You are effectively doubling the damage of the rogue in your party (or someone else, but let's be honest it will always by used on the rogue).  If you limit it to a certain amount of times per long rest, then I think you are good to go.

*Seize Victory* - See above.

I like the simplicity of this subclass, you get options to use and things to do out of it but its easily usable and understandable.  I like that the higher level ranger features give you more of a reason to stick with ranger.






*Spoiler: LuLu Roe Consultant, I mean Otherworldly Patron: Eldritch Pyramid Schemer*
Show



This is one of the funnier subclasses that I have seen.  It certainly captures the essence of the pyramid scheme.  I would absolutely adore it if you had to pay 1 hp and get 1 free spell slot (at level 1, but it grows are you do in level) to use per day when you join this subclass at level (implying that you are part of the structure and you don't know exactly where you are).  Add onto that a certain percentage of failure on the casting of that spell per day.





*Spoiler: Circle of the Pack: A Druid Circle*
Show



This is clearly a melee Druid, something that tends to be missing from other Druid subclasses.  I think that you could easily add extra spells in here as Druid spells known without adding excessive power to anything.

*Pack Hunting* - Sensibility limited in uses.  It's powerful, but since it's limited I thin you are perfectly fine.

*Alpha's Command* - One interesting thing here that I am not sure whether it was intentional or not.  When you use pack hunting they get advantage on melee attack rolls, but the Alpha's Command allows you to make a ranged or melee weapon attack.

*Heart of the Pack* - This seems like a little much to me.  With it being a passive ability your entire party gets these features all the time.  I would rather see this as an active ability with an action cost.  Maybe a bonus action to end fear and charm or a reaction to give one creature advantage on a saving throw.  It still is a good ability and still meets the goal of what you are going for, but makes it more effective overall.

It's a good subclass and a good use of the melee template that is needed for Druids.  I will mirror what others say in that it would be nice to see something use wildshape for added bonuses in melee.






There we go, I'm all caught up.  Great entries everyone!

----------


## CountDVB

> I got delayed in my reviews, but here we go!
> 
> *Spoiler: Warlock: The Regulator*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this is really front loaded.  Even for a Warlock.  You get 2 cantrips (one being one of the best in the game), 2 skill expertise, medium armor, shields, and all weapons.  That is absolutely killer.  I might look at reducing some of the power here.  Maybe give the skills and not expertise until later levels?  Give the choice of Message or Guidance?  Something like that.
> 
> ...


It's about being able to bring order and stability. You are the leader and should be able to fully utilize your Charisma. It's about being the leader to keep the rowdy folks in line and being cpable enough in how you approach your leadership capabilities. 

It shouldn't be focused purely on battle mechanics and I considered the possibility on using this subclass on some of the other PCs or the NPCs. I will tweak some stuff for balance though.

----------


## CountDVB

I tweaked Pact of the Regulator. Hopefully it's a bit more balanced now!

----------


## nickl_2000

> It's about being able to bring order and stability. You are the leader and should be able to fully utilize your Charisma. It's about being the leader to keep the rowdy folks in line and being cpable enough in how you approach your leadership capabilities. 
> 
> It shouldn't be focused purely on battle mechanics and I considered the possibility on using this subclass on some of the other PCs or the NPCs. I will tweak some stuff for balance though.


It doesn't need to be about combat and if it came across that way that was a mistake in typing.  Warlocks are perfectly effective in combat as a base class and really don't need anymore than they already have to be good.  I just felt like the skills were a little much, I wouldn't mind seeing one of the expertise replaced with a charm like ability (but that is just me).

----------


## CountDVB

> It doesn't need to be about combat and if it came across that way that was a mistake in typing.  Warlocks are perfectly effective in combat as a base class and really don't need anymore than they already have to be good.  I just felt like the skills were a little much, I wouldn't mind seeing one of the expertise replaced with a charm like ability (but that is just me).


Yeah, that makes sense! I did tweak it a bit so it wasn't as skill crazy and specified on what you said with applying the bonus roll along with other stuff.

----------


## sengmeng

> I got delayed in my reviews, but here we go!
> 
> *Spoiler: LuLu Roe Consultant, I mean Otherworldly Patron: Eldritch Pyramid Schemer*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of the funnier subclasses that I have seen.  It certainly captures the essence of the pyramid scheme.  I would absolutely adore it if you had to pay 1 hp and get 1 free spell slot (at level 1, but it grows are you do in level) to use per day when you join this subclass at level (implying that you are part of the structure and you don't know exactly where you are).  Add onto that a certain percentage of failure on the casting of that spell per day.


Ha that's a good idea! I'll probably do that.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> I got delayed in my reviews, but here we go!
> 
> *Spoiler: Way of the Cruel Master*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Aspirants* - The secondary ability here is pretty powerful, but you have it gated pretty well with the # of aspirants and ki usage.  It is a little bit odd that it triggers when an aspirant can see you, but the bonus is based on the number of aspirants that you can see.  There is a potential situation here were it could be triggers by an invisible aspirant seeing you, yet you not getting any bonus to your roll.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for your feedback! 

Taking the attack action trigger martial arts, so you dont have to make any attacks, youve taken the required action. Thats my interpretation anyway. 


Ill clarify the level 17 feature. My understanding is that taking Monk to tier 4 is a bit of a fools game so I wanted the capstone to be something spectacular. 
So yes, you can add in GWM/PAM and sharpshooter shenanigans, but I think it will be an appreciated boost and still avoid the worst cheese. 

Intent was spend Ki and cast a spell your Aspirant can using the same kind of action and using your Ki DC. So yes you could make zombies if you have a necromancing aspirant by spending 3 ki and 1 minute. But if theyre dead or unconscious I dont think that works. Might go spell youve seen them cast in the last minute.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> *Death Magic* - I've always wondered why free spells ended at level 5 for spell casting classes.  I don't see anything wrong with going higher personally, and the sorcerer needs all the spells it can get.


I did balance it against the other sorcerer subclasses by only giving them 1 spell at each level in this way, so fewer extra spells known total than others.




> *One With Death* - I think this should leave some DM fiat on it for the charming.  Technically by your rules, if I cast Mage Armor on my charmed skeleton buddy it turns hostile on me. I do think you need to have a range on charming undead critters as well.  As it is currently, you technically instantly charm all undead creatures in the world.


The fluff here is that whatever magic sense it is that keeps zombies and skeletons from attacking other undead also keeps them from attacking you: you simply "ping" as undead to them unless you mess it up. Casting a beneficial spell on a skeleton (that you don't otherwise have control over) should absolutely turn it hostile, not because it doesn't like the mage armor or whatever, but because casting the spell drew its attention enough that it could see the spark of life lingering beneath the cloak of the necrotic energy that surrounds you. A charm effect from another source (the _Dominate Undead_ spell for example) wouldn't be effected by casting the spell, so this shouldn't effect your control over your minions.

And yeah, all undead everywhere (below a certain Int score) are charmed by you in this way until you break them out of it: charmed is the default state. I could limit it to "undead who can see you" or "undead within 200 feet of you" or "undead aware of your presence" or something, but I don't see why I would need to. Charmed doesn't really do anything while you're offscreen.

Ultimately the charmed effect isn't _perfect_ for what I'm going for, but it's a simple solution for what might otherwise be a more complex ability.




> *Grim Puppet* - Should this be concentration?  Having 2 Zombies under your command at level 1 is really strong.


The major limitation of the spell is in how much you have to micro-manage the minions. You _can_ have 2 zombies under your control, but you can only make one of them do anything on any given turn because controlling them is a bonus action. They don't even dodge or move without it. The spell interacts nicely with _Unholy Vigor_, and later you can add them to your horde and control becomes moot, but by itself I think its fitting for a first level spell.




> A dark, evil leader is absolutely still a leader.  I do like how you can start your minionmancy at level 1 instead of having to wait until level 3 to.


There are shades of grey possible here: a necromancer or a death cleric chose to become what they are in one way or another, but a deathtouched sorcerer is born this way. Maybe they've gone all their life trying not to use their powers but are faced with an impossible choice when challenged by something darker, faced with a situation where raising the dead to save the living is the lesser evil.

----------


## Snowben Gaming

> *Spoiler: Circle of the Pack: A Druid Circle*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> This is clearly a melee Druid, something that tends to be missing from other Druid subclasses.  I think that you could easily add extra spells in here as Druid spells known without adding excessive power to anything.
> 
> *Pack Hunting* - Sensibility limited in uses.  It's powerful, but since it's limited I thin you are perfectly fine.
> 
> ...


*Alpha's Command:* I distinctly remember doing so on purpose, although I sure as hell can't remember why. Not like it really matters as Alpha's Command is going out the window for something using wildshape, haven't quite got the replacement feature up and running yet, but I shall do so soon.

*Heart of the Pack:* I'm gonna go with bonus action to end charm or fear, its a more powerful version of the monk's stillness of mind (as that feature is an action) but it's also 7 levels later so I'm pretty sure it should be ok, if not too weak. And you've probably got better things to be doing with your bonus action in most situations anyway.

*Possible Circle Spells:* Huh, I was thinking that bonus proficiencies would take the place of circle spells, but I guess spores druid has circle spells, symbiotic entity _and_ halo of spores, so circle spells would still probably be ok power-wise. I'm not sure what spells I'd add though, other than Hunter's Mark. I'll think about it.

Thanks for the feedback!

----------


## MrStabby

> I got delayed in my reviews, but here we go!
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: The Guide*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Mark Target* - I'm glad this is per long rest as otherwise this would be way to powerful.  How long does the AC penalty last?  Do you need to concentrate on it per the Tasha's Favored Foe replacement?  Is the penalty only against you or against everyone?
> ...


Ah, thanks for the review.

Good shout on the Mark Target errors.  Very poorly written on my part; I will tighten up.

On lead the charge...

I don't know.  I am absolutely not saying you are wrong, but it takes things to an area of design philosophy I don't have settled views on yet.

To what extent should design reflect what other players might bring?  Mark Target for example is utterly brutal if you have a necromancer in the party.  Lead the Charge is much better if you do have a rogue in the group (but then so is haste, so is the order cleric ability to give another attack (from which I shamelessly stole this ability), so is commander's strike).  Actually, saying this I am maybe more concerned about haste on the Guide.

I am really on the fence with this.  On the one hand it is a highish level ability on a class that relies more than most on subclass features whilst also allowing someone else to shine - specifically that someone else is a class that falls off a bit in power (in my oppinion) at higher levels.  The benefits are not every round, but rather every round they wouldn't have used a reaction to attack anyway.  The subclass is already tracking daily uses of Mark Target so I don't want to get bogged down in bookkeeping - I was hoping to keep this simple to play and fill a niche for relatively simple support characters.

On the other side it IS potentially really powerful.  That extra attack does exceed what a fighter can do with their level 11 ability.

One "fix" might be that the character gets its attack, not as a reaction but as an increase in the number of attacks it can make using the attack action.  It keeps reactions open for fighters, paladins etc. and majorly nerfs the effects on Rogues.  It does mean that it kind of sucks a lot more if you have a party heavy on casters who would be unwilling to take the attack action.  It gets a bit fiddly though and is one more thing to remember between turns.

I am less worried about this on Seize Victory - the odds of there being TWO rogues in the party is relatively small and at level 15 I feel they could use a hand, especially as thee is a good chance they are stepping on eachother's toes a bit.  Also... like this is the level where spells like feeblemind and force cage are being thrown about; something to give a bit of a buff to those in the party without access to ultimate arcane power seems good.

Trying to fix this at level 11 but leave the level 15 ability untouched is possible, but I can't easily thing of something that isn't an inelegant kludge. 

I will do something... I am just not sure what.  Thanks for the input.

----------


## CountDVB

Hope everyone is doing well. I'm wondering what other ideas people can still come up with

----------


## MoleMage

I'm still thinking. Nothing leapt out at me this contest, so I may pick one of my old homebrew base classes and try to knock together a leadership subclass for it.

----------


## CountDVB

Only a few days left!

----------


## Snowben Gaming

So I may have forgotten this existed. And only remembered the day before the deadline. Oops.

I've thrown a last minute update onto the Circle of the Pack, the changes are as follows:
Circle spells! (Including a homebrew spell that is literally just holy weapon with elemental damage types (and without the light and blinding effects)).Alpha's Command is now only melee attacks. I *was* planning on replacing this feature entirely, but I procrastinated and never decided on a full replacement.

I'll try and be a lot more active for the next contest and actually get round to giving feedback.

----------


## MrStabby

> So I may have forgotten this existed. And only remembered the day before the deadline. Oops.
> 
> I've thrown a last minute update onto the Circle of the Pack, the changes are as follows:
> Circle spells! (Including a homebrew spell that is literally just holy weapon with elemental damage types (and without the light and blinding effects)).Alpha's Command is now only melee attacks. I *was* planning on replacing this feature entirely, but I procrastinated and never decided on a full replacement.
> 
> I'll try and be a lot more active for the next contest and actually get round to giving feedback.


Yeah, I hope to do the same... I need to get my computer fixed.  Trying to do in depth reviews on my phone has been... problematic.

----------


## CountDVB

Guess we'll be voting soon...

----------


## MoleMage

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...8#post25033148

Indeed we will, for the voting thread is upon us!

Don't forget, the most important tiebreaker is whether you vote!

----------


## CountDVB

Voted though what's the Bunch of Fives about?

----------


## MoleMage

> Voted though what's the Bunch of Fives about?


Five fingers; it was the theme in contest 6, originally suggested along with a set of other themes themed on the number 5 for contest...5.

----------


## nickl_2000

> Five fingers; it was the theme in contest 6, originally suggested along with a set of other themes themed on the number 5 for contest...5.


If anyone is having trouble finding themes around the number 5, let me know.  I've got about 7 different themes that you can can use to base a subclass around.

----------


## CountDVB

> Five fingers; it was the theme in contest 6, originally suggested along with a set of other themes themed on the number 5 for contest...5.


All right, so the theme is basically rule of five then? Five fingers, five things, so on and so forth, correct?

Just wanna make sure.

----------


## MoleMage

> All right, so the theme is basically rule of five then? Five fingers, five things, so on and so forth, correct?
> 
> Just wanna make sure.


For Bunch of Fives it's subclasses that use their hands (like fists, but also five-finger discount, etc.)

----------


## nickl_2000

> For Bunch of Fives it's subclasses that use their hands (like fists, but also five-finger discount, etc.)


Frankly I think you could get away with anything that includes the number 5.  5 Senses, five fingered discount, 5 love languages, High Fives, Take 5 (which is a term for a rest).

----------


## CountDVB

> For Bunch of Fives it's subclasses that use their hands (like fists, but also five-finger discount, etc.)


All righty! Definitely will be a bit tricky, but should be alot of fun then.

----------


## Ilerien

> For Bunch of Fives it's subclasses that use their hands (like fists, but also five-finger discount, etc.)


I'm going to be rather uncreative and present a monk subclass  :Small Wink:

----------


## Damon_Tor

"Pair of Fives" made me think of cards and gambling, which was the starting point for the subclass I'll be posting (a rogue)... though it's drifted a bit from that concept.

My thought process went from "a gambler might have secret pockets for hiding aces and such" to "I bet he can hide small weapons in there too" to "okay, this is now a knife-throwing specialist with some minor gambling fluff". Oh well.

----------


## Snowben Gaming

So I've had an idea for Bunch of Fives ever since the previous voting period. Shadow animal bard time!

----------


## Damon_Tor

> So I've had an idea for Bunch of Fives ever since the previous voting period. Shadow animal bard time!


Ooh, ooh, a bard focused on _clapping_. Like a... a preschool teacher or something.

----------


## MrStabby

Hmm.  The Happy Slapper Barbarian might be coming out to play.

----------


## CountDVB

Congrats to the winners!

----------


## MoleMage

Aw sod I forgot to vote and I run the thing. I used to be so much better about this stuff. Oh well, time to tally.




> Alrighty, even though I forgot to vote myself, it's time to tally those votes and find our...wow. clear breakway here.
> 
> In third place, earning 8 points overall, MrStabby's *Guide Ranger*! Take command of the situation and direct your allies strikes where they're needed most!
> 
> In second place, earning 10 points, we have BerzerkerUnit's *Way of the Cruel Master*! Your methods are questionable but the results undeniable.
> 
> And our overwhelming first place entry, with 16 points, we have Damon_Tor's *Deathtouched Sorcerer*! Raise the dead. Swarm your enemies with the dead. Spread the dead. A minionmancy subclass for the ages.
> 
> Next contest is *Bunch of Fives* (five fingers, that is). Thread coming soon!


Tally done. New contest soon!

----------


## nickl_2000

> Aw sod I forgot to vote and I run the thing. I used to be so much better about this stuff. Oh well, time to tally.


I think as long as the vote is in before the tally thread you are good to go, and it's pretty easy for you to get it in before the tally thread  :Small Wink: 



Congratulations on the great entries everyone and to the winners!

----------


## MoleMage

> I think as long as the vote is in before the tally thread you are good to go, and it's pretty easy for you to get it in before the tally thread 
> 
> 
> 
> Congratulations on the great entries everyone and to the winners!


I could, and if it were anyone else I'd let it slide as long as they beat me to the tally, but it feels like I'm taking advantage of being the organizer if I do it myself. I don't think my votes would have changed anything today anyway, we had some breakaway leaders at the front this time around.

New contest is up, too! https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...5#post25050185

----------


## nickl_2000

> I could, and if it were anyone else I'd let it slide as long as they beat me to the tally, but it feels like I'm taking advantage of being the organizer if I do it myself. I don't think my votes would have changed anything today anyway, we had some breakaway leaders at the front this time around.
> 
> New contest is up, too! https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...5#post25050185


I know I wouldn't be bother by it, even if I were pushed out of first place (although that wasn't an issue this time, way to many amazing entries for me to compete :) ).  Also, since we knew about the next contest I got a head start.  So, I've added my Druid Circle of the 5th element.

----------


## CountDVB

Druid of the 5th Element is really clever! Hope you like my handy wizard !

Also, to nickl_2000, maybe your Druid could also gain _magic missile_ as a circle spell? Since you only have one spell there.

----------


## MrStabby

Well this is a tough one.  I had started to pull out a few ideas but it seems that others are running with themes pretty close to what I had planned so mot sure what to do.

I need some inspiration.

Thinking an Hells domain cleric themed round 5s could be good fun to try.  Hand of Law, Pentagrams, the Five rings of Binding, stygian mist (though I was thinking of a custom spell for each layer which would unwind this).

I guess to emphasise 5 I could narrow it to a Styx domain.

Hard choices!

----------


## nickl_2000

> Druid of the 5th Element is really clever! Hope you like my handy wizard !
> 
> Also, to nickl_2000, maybe your Druid could also gain _magic missile_ as a circle spell? Since you only have one spell there.


I wasn't actually planning on putting in a 2nd level set of spells.  That was a copy and paste error :)

Although now that I did.  There is nothing wrong with Magic Missile and Zephyr Strike at 2nd level.  Thanks

----------


## nickl_2000

> Well this is a tough one.  I had started to pull out a few ideas but it seems that others are running with themes pretty close to what I had planned so mot sure what to do.
> 
> I need some inspiration.
> 
> Thinking an Hells domain cleric themed round 5s could be good fun to try.  Hand of Law, Pentagrams, the Five rings of Binding, stygian mist (though I was thinking of a custom spell for each layer which would unwind this).
> 
> I guess to emphasise 5 I could narrow it to a Styx domain.
> 
> Hard choices!


Here are some left over ideas from when I was brainstorming for the concept.  Feel free to borrow, steal, or modify any of these ideas if they jump out at you.

5s Contest
-5 finger death punch
-5 finger discount
-5th element (the movie)
-5 senses (touch, sight, hearing, smell and taste)
-5 love languages
-5 finger Monk
-Gimme 5 (based on hand slaps/high 5s)
-Take 5, subclass based on bonuses while taking a short rest

----------


## MrStabby

> Here are some left over ideas from when I was brainstorming for the concept.  Feel free to borrow, steal, or modify any of these ideas if they jump out at you.
> 
> 5s Contest
> -5 finger death punch
> -5 finger discount
> -5th element (the movie)
> -5 senses (touch, sight, hearing, smell and taste)
> -5 love languages
> -5 finger Monk
> ...


Cheers, although of these I had already considered 5th element, 5 finger discount and broadly unarmed monks which seemed well represented before I could join.

5 senses is an interesting one.  Not sure where that would go but certainly some scope there. Maybe a planescape sensate class?

----------


## CountDVB

> Cheers, although of these I had already considered 5th element, 5 finger discount and broadly unarmed monks which seemed well represented before I could join.
> 
> 5 senses is an interesting one.  Not sure where that would go but certainly some scope there. Maybe a planescape sensate class?


Well, you could always try and do a bare-handed Fighter class. Or maybe a Rogue specializing in hand-based assassination. 

There's also maybe something with Pentagrams, which could be for a few caster classes.

----------


## Damon_Tor

I fiddled around some with a fighter based on a pro-wrestler. Unarmed strikes and grapples would be front and center, as would improvised weapons (specifically, but not limited to, chairs) but the subclass would actually utilize cha heavily, mugging for the audience (whether there was one actually there or not).

----------


## Damon_Tor

The Maverick is up and ready for feedback.

----------


## nickl_2000

> Cheers, although of these I had already considered 5th element, 5 finger discount and broadly unarmed monks which seemed well represented before I could join.
> 
> 5 senses is an interesting one.  Not sure where that would go but certainly some scope there. Maybe a planescape sensate class?


That would be why I didn't build based on it,  the idea was interesting but I couldn't figure out how to make it work.   I might see if I can make one anyways. 

I want to see someone make a bro style support class based on high/ low fives.

----------


## Lvl45DM!

> That would be why I didn't build based on it,  the idea was interesting but I couldn't figure out how to make it work.   I might see if I can make one anyways. 
> 
> I want to see someone make a bro style support class based on high/ low fives.


I feel like 5 senses would go well with Ranger maybe. Rough to have any combat abilities though.

The capstone ability of the hi five class (College of Bros! No wait! Way of the Congratulator!) has to be "Down Low? Too Slow!"  :Small Tongue: 

You know what there are 5 of in Dnd? Base Alignments. Good, Evil, Law, Chaos and Neutral. 
Claiming Oath of Concordance Paladin

----------


## Ilerien

And now I'm kind of in doubt. With all these creative interpretations of the current contest's theme, will a monk subclass that is just shoehorned into using unarmed strikes and not weapons even fit, or should I think up something else?

----------


## CountDVB

> And now I'm kind of in doubt. With all these creative interpretations of the current contest's theme, will a monk subclass that is just shoehorned into using unarmed strikes and not weapons even fit, or should I think up something else?


Probably if you can find a way of implementing a unique aspect to it

----------


## MrStabby

So... been looking through some options:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5

I figure the 5 second rule could be a nice addition to a monk that prones people - some effect if they lie on the ground for more than 1 round.  Or possibly combine it with the 5 tastes for a cullinary subclass.


It is hard to really make "5" come through with my first thoughts.  Still - this is fun.

----------


## nickl_2000

Looks like several entries have matured to the point of being ready for a first review.


*Spoiler: Roguish Archetype: The Maverick*
Show



The flavor text at the top is awesome, kudos on that I really love it.

You forgot to add levels to your abilities.  I'm assuming it goes 3, 3, 9, 13, 17 since that would be fitting with the abilities.

*Escamotage* - This ability is extremely appropriate thematically, but a little underwhelming when it comes to class abilities.  Making a dagger/dart 1d6 puts it on the same level shortbow and shortsword which are both options that a rogue gets without even thinking.  The longer range is a nice addition to it, but you still have a better option in the crossbow or shortbow.  So, what is the fix?  I think there needs to be an additional ability to get a sneak attack with a dart of dagger rolled into this.  Possibly something like this
"You are adept at hiding and surprising enemies with small blade.  During your turn, you can draw and attack with a hidden dagger or dart.  Make a slight of hard roll against the opponents perception.  On success, you are eligible to make a sneak attack" or something of the like.  Getting a sneak attack isn't all that hard, but it does get the idea of a surprise through without giving easy advantage.

*Hidden Pockets* - Great RP potential and fun to see in action.  Little to no impact on combat itself, which is perfectly fine.  I like this ability a lot.

*All In* - That is a lot of dagger you could go through in a single battle!  I really like this ability to.  It's a nice way that a rogue can deal with a group of weaker enemies instead of one powerful enemy.  Question on it, do you want each attack to be 1d6 + Dex or just 1d6 (per the sneak attack dice)?  I can see both being successfully argued as the right way to do it, so I'll just leave it at mentioning it.

*Jinx* - So you are giving all enemies disadvantage on initiative for the rest of your career?  Also, -5 on all passive perception checks to see you sneaking?  Also, you are giving them disadvantage on all grapple checks.  Seems pretty powerful to be an always on ability, I would rather seem this limited to X uses per rest to keep it a little more balanced.

The flavor all the way through this subclass is amazing, everything fits the contest and the theming of the character beautifully.  I think there are a few power issues that need resolved, but overall this is a really good entry.





*Spoiler: Wizard: School of Chiromancy*
Show



*Hex Hands* - So this is a flat out debuff for wizards at level 2.  At level 1, you write 6 spells into your spellbook and at level 2 you add 2 more (making a total of 8 spells).  However, once you get to level two with point buy you can only have 5 (+3 int, 2 wizard levels) spells in your new hexhands.  By levelling up, you have effectively lost access to 3 spells that you had before.  So, now you can no longer get non-prepared spells cast as a ritual and in return you don't get any boosts that I can see.

*Magical Handiwork* - This is fine, as a flavorful addition to the Wizard.

*The Magic Touch* - The advantage on somatic only spells I thought was silly overpowered, then I looked online for the list.  This is actually a really, really small list.  It is amazing on counterspell attempts and catapult is nice, but overall it's really not that great of a list.

The ability to cast a spell with range of touch it pretty nice, I like that one a lot.

*Powerful Palmistry* - Seems fine.

*Mastery of Manos* - there is one part of this that is interesting 
"If you cast a spell that requires only a vocal component and are unable to speak, you can cast it with just a somatic component instead. You do gain the bonus of The Magic Touch feature."
This has actually made it beneficial for me to be able to gag myself in the middle of combat so that I get advantage on the spells.  Just an odd interaction.


Overall, it's fitting into the theme and interesting.  The Debuff at level 2 is a significant problem though, considering that most PCs don't make it in Tier 3, that is a major part of their career where they will lag behind all other wizard subclasses.






*Spoiler: Monk: Way of Balance*
Show



*Air and Water* - 1 Ki for 3d8 healing is a huge amount of healing at this level, and from an action ecomony standpoint it is even better since you can heal 4 people with one action.  This compares to the Way of Mercy Monk, which need does it at touch range and get martial arts dice + Wis Mod for 1 ki.  I think this needs to be toned down a little bit.

*Tremorsense* - Fitting for the character, seems fine to me.

*Dancing Dragon* - Both the abilities here seem overpowered, although running the numbers on Firebreath it isn't all that far off.  You do need an action cost added to this though.  The 30 ft cone seems a little large for this ability, but this one may be fine as well.  I would see what others think before you change anything on it.  As a small side note, how does sleep related to the elements?

*Weave Blocking* - This needs a repeated save at the end of each round.  Sure it's expensive to cast, but you run into the BBEG archmage at the end of a campaign.  Hit them with a weave blocking, then step back and attack the mooks while your party completely splatters the mage who can't stop them.  Since you haven't attacked the mage, it doesn't get it's spells back.  So, it may as well be a commoner with a lot of HPs at this point.

I think there needs to be a little bit more connection to the Cosmic element for some of the abilities.  I see the Air, Water, Fire, and Earth well enough.

----------


## CountDVB

> Looks like several entries have matured to the point of being ready for a first review
> 
> *Spoiler: Wizard: School of Chiromancy*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Hex Hands* - So this is a flat out debuff for wizards at level 2.  At level 1, you write 6 spells into your spellbook and at level 2 you add 2 more (making a total of 8 spells).  However, once you get to level two with point buy you can only have 5 (+3 int, 2 wizard levels) spells in your new hexhands.  By levelling up, you have effectively lost access to 3 spells that you had before.  So, now you can no longer get non-prepared spells cast as a ritual and in return you don't get any boosts that I can see.
> 
> ...


I made some adjustments! I hope you find it an improvement.

----------


## MrStabby

Starting reviews with way of Balance.

Overall, I am not feeling the theme of the competition running deep here.  Having to wait till 17th level to get your quintessential ability means that for most of the game there is no sense of bunch of fives.

In terms of mechanics it also feels a bit all over the place, although this is probably inevitable.  The fact you are trying to shoehorn abilities from 5 different elements into one class was always going to make it a challenge to have it feel like a coherent whole.

The individual abilities are also on the strong side.  Healing for 3d8 for 1 ki? Being able to get mass curative effects before clerics bards and druids? This seems a bit much.

Likewise the fire effect for 12d6 area of effect is stepping pretty hard on the toes of fireball, especially as Ki comes back on a short rest.  Even the fiend pact warlock with short rest fireballs as a major feature would see this as very strong (and a d10 fireball at level 11 would be 1/3 of the short rest resource of the class).  

Sleep... an area of effect control element on top? Well I am not seeing the elemental connection to sleep but could be something here I am missing. 

I guess I feel the class should be tuned downwards a little.  It is really good at too many area with the subclass: damage, control, healing, shutting down casters... all on top of being a monk as well.  Nothing wrong with flexability but I don't think you should excel in so many areas.

That said, some of the abilities themselves are cool and thematic.  I think that things like your 5th element ability could be reworked to come earlier - this is both a cool ability, one that could compliment other monk abilities but also somewhat different from other classes so less likely to be stepping on their toes.  Closest anti caster option might be monster hunter ranger (wis/dex/anti caster) so keeping a different feel to this might be useful.

I loved the imagery of the water container for the water ability.  Building a material elemental components theme for the other abilities might be cool and could also be used as a point of balance?

I feel a bit harsh saying this - there is a lot to like and I feel like I have just focussed on the bits I don't which is unfair.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> You forgot to add levels to your abilities.  I'm assuming it goes 3, 3, 9, 13, 17 since that would be fitting with the abilities.


Thank you. I had it listed on two of the abilities but not the others. I've fixed it.




> *Escamotage* - This ability is extremely appropriate thematically, but a little underwhelming when it comes to class abilities.  Making a dagger/dart 1d6 puts it on the same level shortbow and shortsword which are both options that a rogue gets without even thinking.  The longer range is a nice addition to it, but you still have a better option in the crossbow or shortbow.  So, what is the fix?  I think there needs to be an additional ability to get a sneak attack with a dart of dagger rolled into this.  Possibly something like this
> "You are adept at hiding and surprising enemies with small blade.  During your turn, you can draw and attack with a hidden dagger or dart.  Make a slight of hard roll against the opponents perception.  On success, you are eligible to make a sneak attack" or something of the like.  Getting a sneak attack isn't all that hard, but it does get the idea of a surprise through without giving easy advantage.


Excellent idea: I've added something very close to the suggested ability. The version I've settled on is an ability that resembles the Inquisitive's Insightful Fighting ability, but the Maverick's ability only lasts one turn, with the tradeoff that it can effect multiple opponents (important for synergy with All In later).[/quote]




> *All In* - That is a lot of dagger you could go through in a single battle!  I really like this ability to.  It's a nice way that a rogue can deal with a group of weaker enemies instead of one powerful enemy.  Question on it, do you want each attack to be 1d6 + Dex or just 1d6 (per the sneak attack dice)?  I can see both being successfully argued as the right way to do it, so I'll just leave it at mentioning it.


It would be 1d6+Dex for each enemy. 




> *Jinx* - So you are giving all enemies disadvantage on initiative for the rest of your career?  Also, -5 on all passive perception checks to see you sneaking?  Also, you are giving them disadvantage on all grapple checks.  Seems pretty powerful to be an always on ability, I would rather seem this limited to X uses per rest to keep it a little more balanced.


Good points: I've limited it to proficiency modifier per short or long rest. Plenty of uses to see frequent use, but you would run out with overuse.




> The flavor all the way through this subclass is amazing, everything fits the contest and the theming of the character beautifully.  I think there are a few power issues that need resolved, but overall this is a really good entry.


Thanks!

----------


## MrStabby

Thoughts part 2.  The Maverick

*Escamotage*

I like a lot of this - the d6 on the weapon die is small but a nice bit of fluff, the gaming expertise is proably a ribbon, but very thematic. The ability to use a bonus action to get the needed conditions for sneak attack in another way is a weak bonus - hiding is a similar opposed roll but also gives advantage.


Hidden pockets is similarly cool.  More than just a ribbon but nothing really game changing and more about smuggling than combat.  The odd thing is that drawing and stowing as part of another action would be great for multiple attacks with two weapon fighting... only the rogue only gets one attack.

My gripe is that level 3 doesnt seem to mechancally pin down a playstyle or key lasting benefit of the subclass.  Some small mechanical bonuses and a whole load of cool, but not like the assisin's assasinate ability, AT magic, the mastermind's bonus acion help etc..  That key ability that will be important for levels 1 to 20 and sets the mechanical tone for the subclass seems missing.  An extra average 1 point of damage on an attack + another way to spend a bonus action to get advantage just seems to lack in distinction when it comes to the experience of plying the character - obviously a guess as I haven't played one, but that's my worry.

*All In* on the other hand seems crazy, crazy good.  OK, talking best case scenario here, but still informative you are replacing a D6 SA die with an attack that will deal D6+5 (assuming you used your 2 ASIs to max dex).  I.e. you are more than doubling damage output, circumventing overkill and being able to handle the rogues big weakness of multiple enemies. Dip a level of war cleric to grab divine favour and you push this even further over the top.  And there is no limit to this.  Compare this to the Assassinate ability - critical hit does less than double damage, you have to jump throuh a huge number of hoops to get it and you are pretty much limited to one per combat.

I mean I get that concentrated damage is better than diffuse damage, with the possible exception of breaking concentration on multiple spellcasters or similar but this just feels wrong.

If I were you I would limit it to the first round of combat and to items hidden with the hidden pockets ability that would somewhat cap it.  Even then I think it is really strong.


*Jinx* is another very thematic ability.  The opposed skill check thing is pretty cool and would let you be a pretty awesome grappler with expertise and reliable tallent, even if you dumped strength.  Min of 19 and opponet with disadvantage will take down a lot.  This is cool.  The initiative thing might be just a little too broad.  The ability feels like it should be a choice to use which requires awareness.  A minor limitation like specifying a creature you can see would help keep ambushes relavent in the game and keep one role open for other classes to cover.

*Borrowed Luck* was something I thought was too good at first pass, but it actually encourages more interaction.  Sure, you can get a load of critical hits but then convert it into obscene damage, but your enemy gets one round to hide, impose disadvantage or some other means of making the attack ineligable for sneak attack and obviating the success.  I think it is still very powerful as given the rogue's ability to get both advantage and massive numbers of attacks this is going to see a lot of use but hey... its 17th level and you are probably playing alongside wish or similar by that point.


*
Spoiler Q&A* 

"If I have an ability like Action Surge which lets me take another action on my turn, can I use All In twice?" - my reading of the rules might be a bit different here and this mightmean some sharpening up of language is needed.  Sneak attack decision is made when you hit, not when you declare an action.  You can attack intending to sneak attack and miss and leave yourself able to sneak attack with any second attack.  With all in your sneak attack is locked in earlier - not sure if it is an issue and wondering if there is going to be a problem with it not quite being a like for like replacement.



All in all I love the subclass.  Theme is great, I see the link with quick hands, it cas mechanically cool abilities.  My two concerns are just 1) your level 3 doesn't seem to have the key iconic ability that defines the subclass and 2) that level 9 ability is a bit much - frankly reining in that single ability would bring everything else into line.

----------


## Damon_Tor

Feedback on the Circle of the 5th Element




> *Druid - Circle of the 5th Element*
> 
> Most intelligent species in the realm know of the primary 4 elements (Air, Fire, Water, and Earth), but the uninitiated often dont know about the 5th element, spirit, that fills all the spaces where the other four elements arent.  When one learns how to control the spirit in between, they can do amazing things only available to the most powerful of magic users.  They can control others around them, set up invisible barriers, and even transport themselves over great distance.  When combined with the other 4 elements, it is even more powerful.


I'm not sure "spirit" is the best for this, as it's already heavily used in the lore. Alchemists used to use the words "aether" or "quintessense" for the concept of a fifth element (that's the literal meaning "quintessence" in fact. "Circle of the Quintessence" would sound cooler IMO, but that's a matter of taste)




> *Circle of the 5th Element Spells*
> Druid Level
> Circle Spells
> 
> 2nd
> Magic Missile, Zephyr Strike
> 
> 3rd
> Misty Step, Spiritual Weapon
> ...


Good list! Revivify sticks out to me though, as I'm not sure how it relates to the themes expressed elsewhere in the class. Minor quibble.




> *Spirit Shield*
> At level 2, as an action, you can use one of the uses of your wildshape to summon a spirit shield around yourself and your allies.  When you do this, you gain 2x your druid level in temporary hit points that can be distributed to any allies that are within 60 feet of you.


Great ability. I feel like you need to clarify when the thp can be distributed: as written it seems you, the caster, first gain all the thp and then may distribute them to your allies. It isn't clear that the redistribution of said thp can only occur at the time of casting or if they can be distributed at a later point of your choosing.




> *Minor Spatial Manipulation*
> Additionally at level 2, you learn the mage hand cantrip.  The hand is invisible and functions by manipulating the space and spirit around the object rather than the object itself and does not count against your cantrips known.


Very good.




> *Spiritual Repulsion*
> At level 6, any creature that is currently under the effect of your spirit shield also gains resistance to Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing damage from non-magical weapons.  Once all the temporary hit points from this feature are lost (or replaced by temporary hit points from another spell of ability), the damage resistance is also lost.


Cool.




> *Major Spatial Manipulation*
> At level 10 you can, as a reaction to an Area of Effect spell or ability being used, use your connection with space to manipulate the location of creatures.  Choose a creature within 120 feet of you, that creature must make Charisma save against your spell DC.  If they fail, you can switch the location of that creature with another creature within the Area of Effect of the spell or the ability.  This has no effect on success.
> 
> This ability can be used proficiency mod times.  Uses of this ability are regained when you complete a long rest.


We all know what you mean, but I don't think "Area of Effect spell or ability" is the appropriate term. I think it would be "A spell or ability which targets an area". I'm also not sure what you mean by "This has no effect on success." Does this imply that even though you switch the creatures' locations, the creature you swapped out of the area of the spell is still affected by it? Also, I feel like a creature should be able to willingly fail the save.




> *Complete Spatial Awareness*
> At level 14, you have learned complete spatial awareness.  As such, you gain permanent Blindsense to 60 feet.  Additionally, the teleport spell is added to your spell list.  When you cast the teleport spell, any roll that results in a mishap is changed to a similar area instead.


Neat capstone, very nice.

----------


## MrStabby

Druid Circle of the 5th Element

I have had reall difficulty forming a view on this class.  The main reason is that I don't like it but mostly for subjective reasons; it isn't in any way bad.  There is nothing wrong with it.  It isn't that I don't like it because it needs fixing.  It just doesnt appeal.

So I will try and split my thoughts into two - feelings and thoughts.  Why I don't like it then a more mechanical set of thoughts.

I don't like it because it doesn't feel like much of a theme - it is an "everything druid" and takes the worst parts of the omnimancer wizard and sorcerer whose spells span so many effects that feel disconnected.

I don't like it as the things that get added don't feel like a natural extension of what it is to be a druid but rather a bolt-on of everything that feels unnatural. I can see "spitit" druid be cool as the 5th element, but nothing really screams spitit to me.  Where are the spirit guardian, spirit shroud, speak with dead, conjure undead, guardian of faith spells?  Instead we seem to have a "Force" druid.

I feel that all of the additions represent someone who would just be better off playing a wizard - given the frequency with which the circle spells crop up on the wizard list.

I don't like that it gets wall of force - one of the most powerful spells out there and something that alone is a big boost and undermining a key reson to play an arcane caster.  Also, in general the circle spell list is very much on the strong side and very much stepping on other classes toes.




But... more objectively... this is well done with a good balance of strong and weak abilities.

Very, very strong spell list but that is not objecively bad.  

*Spirit shield* is very useful, but not that strong.  Pretty uncontroversial...  the exception being doing it at end of day to carry resources over to the next day or to cary resources through a short rest.  Maybe the temp HP only last for 8 hours?  1 hour?

*Minor spatial manipulation* - another small ability but cool enough.

*Spiritual Repulsion* - Now Spirit shield gets very useful.  Buff the flimsiest party member and add 1 pt to everyone else (especially those that might want to take half damage to better pass concentration checks.

*Major spatial manupulation* - whilst I am still trying to reconcile teleporting people around with "spirit" this is a very cool ability,but possibly able to be abused.  Is it intended that the swapping just be for hostile spells or are you cool with dropping a maelstrom and then teleporting an enemy into it?  How about something that catches a party familliar flying 120ft overhead?  But why stop here - only one of the creatures you want to swap has to be within 120ft...  cast locate animals or plants with a 5 mile radius and if you can get a creature up high enough then you can drop your enemy from low earth orbit.  Are you happy with this inflicitng falling damage as well? 

*Complete Spatial Awareness* - Looks good.  Blindsight and teleport are unlikely to break the game.

----------


## MrStabby

Next block of thoughts

Wizard: School of Chiromancy

*Hex Hands* I am not sure of everyhing this does.  What does "You now add your Dexterity modifier whenever you roll for a spell or for a concentration check on maintaining a spell" mean? Is this attack rolls for spells? Damage rolls? Does teleport now mean you are more likely to land on target? Are you more likely to vanish with blink?  I am guessing that you mean any roll to which you would normally add your intelligence modifier you can also add your dex modifier?  This is relatively modest.

If it is EVERYTHING, then it is massivley too powerful.  Even just a spell like scorching ray doing 2d6+dex damage per hit and with two stats adding to the to hit chance is grotesque for level 3.  Magic missile?  Phantasmal force?  Counterspell?


*Magical Handiwork* Fine.  Like the Arcane trickster but less good so not really spoiling their fun.

*The Magic Touch* "Whenever you cast a spell that requires only somatic components, you always have advantage on those spells": Counterspell, catapult, absorb elements, mindspike, mislead, mentalprison, demiplane, illusiory dragon, psychic scream... of these the caster having advantage only makes sense on counterspell I think - unless you catch yourself in the spell and need to make a save.  Even if it is just counterspell then you are seriously cramping the style of the abjurer getting counterspell boosts 4 levels before they do.

*Powerful Palmistry*
A free knowing of bigby's hand is... OK.  Concentration on two spells at once is never something I could endorse.  It is just too powerful. This is you wall of force + sickening radiance all on one character.
Do bear in mind that with all the bonuses to spells known this subclass will have a massive, massive number of spells on hand (pun intended).

*Mastery of Manos*
Proficiency in dex saves... fine I guess.  Getting a big part of the sorcerer's subtle spell metamagic and using it for free... less of a fan.


I think the conept is good.  I think that the wording needs some extra clarity before we get a real picture of balance - some interpretations are clearly overpowered and probably not intended.  Whilst I have looked generally at wizard spells to evaluate, there are a bunch that can be picked up through multiclassing, feats, GGtR backgrounds and Eberron Races so a more complete balance picture might need a deeper dive even then.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> *Escamotage*
> 
> I like a lot of this - the d6 on the weapon die is small but a nice bit of fluff, the gaming expertise is proably a ribbon, but very thematic. The ability to use a bonus action to get the needed conditions for sneak attack in another way is a weak bonus - hiding is a similar opposed roll but also gives advantage.


Hiding relies on environmental factors and forces your positioning, can't usually be used to benefit a melee attack, and is easily countered by the enemy moving to a position where you're in plain sight. Hiding is also generally only good for one attack before you lose the benefit. A rogue who is hidden, attacks, then misses can attempt an offhand attack, but is no longer hidden and so can't gain the benefit of the sneak attack unless other factors are in play. A rogue benefiting from escamotage can miss the first attack then follow up with an off-hand attack and land the sneak attack because the benefit doesn't expire when an attack is made.




> Hidden pockets is similarly cool.  More than just a ribbon but nothing really game changing and more about smuggling than combat.  The odd thing is that drawing and stowing as part of another action would be great for multiple attacks with two weapon fighting... only the rogue only gets one attack.


A maverick can take advantage of the free draw/stow effect to dual-wield as a thrower more effectively than other rogues. And of course at 9th level they get All In.




> My gripe is that level 3 doesnt seem to mechancally pin down a playstyle or key lasting benefit of the subclass.  Some small mechanical bonuses and a whole load of cool, but not like the assisin's assasinate ability, AT magic, the mastermind's bonus acion help etc..  That key ability that will be important for levels 1 to 20 and sets the mechanical tone for the subclass seems missing.  An extra average 1 point of damage on an attack + another way to spend a bonus action to get advantage just seems to lack in distinction when it comes to the experience of plying the character - obviously a guess as I haven't played one, but that's my worry.


As you might be able to tell already from my above responses, I see them as being dual-wielding throwers at least until 9th level. A typical combat cycle might go:

Turn A (if started without escamotage)
Move to attack positionBonus EscamotageAction Thrown AttackMove to safer locationTurn B
Move into Attack positionAction Thrown AttackBonus IF ATTACK HIT Escamotage (and next turn is a turn B), IF MISS off-hand attack (and next turn is a turn A)Move to safer location

In other words, they would be likely to play like a soulknife in combat. The soulknife gets +Dex on his offhand attacks by default and better normal-range on his weapons, but the maverick doesn't need to rely on hiding for sneak attack on targets who aren't in melee with an ally, so he reliably gets sneak attack on the bonus action attack while the soulknife does not, and the maverick doesn't need to play mother may I with hiding conditions nor rely on hiding locations being within range of the chosen target.




> *All In* on the other hand seems crazy, crazy good.  OK, talking best case scenario here, but still informative you are replacing a D6 SA die with an attack that will deal D6+5 (assuming you used your 2 ASIs to max dex).  I.e. you are more than doubling damage output, circumventing overkill and being able to handle the rogues big weakness of multiple enemies. Dip a level of war cleric to grab divine favour and you push this even further over the top.  And there is no limit to this.  Compare this to the Assassinate ability - critical hit does less than double damage, you have to jump throuh a huge number of hoops to get it and you are pretty much limited to one per combat.
> 
> I mean I get that concentrated damage is better than diffuse damage, with the possible exception of breaking concentration on multiple spellcasters or similar but this just feels wrong.


Hunters' _Volley_ doesn't tend to raise alarms despite their superior weapon selection. In fact, the subclass is considered underpowered despite having an at-will AoE attack ability.

If there's an issue here, it may be that the Maverick's range with the daggers (55/90 due to the bonus from escamotage) constitutes superior targeting compared to volley, which has a 10 foot radius. To bring this in line, I could put a hard limit on the range of the attacks granted by All In, say 20 feet (which is the usual normal range of throwing daggers). This would make All In a sort of "20 foot radius PBAoE" with a max of 6-11 targets compared to Volley being a "10 foot targeted AoE at range 150/600" with no upper limit on targets. This would give the maverick a larger AoE to compensate for needing to be in the thick of it as compared to the hunter's smaller area but superior range.

*EDIT:* I went ahead and made that change, limiting the targets to within 20 feet of the maverick. I like that the maverick has to get pretty close to use this.




> If I were you I would limit it to the first round of combat and to items hidden with the hidden pockets ability that would somewhat cap it.  Even then I think it is really strong.


Well it is _effectively_ limited to weapons in the hidden pockets because of item interaction limitations, unless the character has another ability that allows for free weapon draws.




> "If I have an ability like Action Surge which lets me take another action on my turn, can I use All In twice?" - my reading of the rules might be a bit different here and this mightmean some sharpening up of language is needed.  Sneak attack decision is made when you hit, not when you declare an action.  You can attack intending to sneak attack and miss and leave yourself able to sneak attack with any second attack.  With all in your sneak attack is locked in earlier - not sure if it is an issue and wondering if there is going to be a problem with it not quite being a like for like replacement.


This is a good point. I'll look into tightening up the language. *EDIT:* Change made, hopefully that clears up the timing issue.




> All in all I love the subclass.  Theme is great, I see the link with quick hands, it cas mechanically cool abilities.  My two concerns are just 1) your level 3 doesn't seem to have the key iconic ability that defines the subclass and 2) that level 9 ability is a bit much - frankly reining in that single ability would bring everything else into line.


Thanks for the feedback!

----------


## CountDVB

> Next block of thoughts
> 
> Wizard: School of Chiromancy
> 
> *Hex Hands* I am not sure of everyhing this does.  What does "You now add your Dexterity modifier whenever you roll for a spell or for a concentration check on maintaining a spell" mean? Is this attack rolls for spells? Damage rolls? Does teleport now mean you are more likely to land on target? Are you more likely to vanish with blink?  I am guessing that you mean any roll to which you would normally add your intelligence modifier you can also add your dex modifier?  This is relatively modest.
> 
> If it is EVERYTHING, then it is massivley too powerful.  Even just a spell like scorching ray doing 2d6+dex damage per hit and with two stats adding to the to hit chance is grotesque for level 3.  Magic missile?  Phantasmal force?  Counterspell?
> 
> 
> ...


I added some further adjustment and added something new. Being able to replace vocal components with somatic is part of the point since one inspiration for this were people who communicate primarily through sign language.

Thank you for the feedback

----------


## Edea

I put up a barb path.  Need help with language, also probably too strong but I found myself not wanting to change much; regardless, open to suggestions (I might take the last part off the level 10, I dunno).

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## CountDVB

> I put up a barb path.  Need help with language, also probably too strong but I found myself not wanting to change much; regardless, open to suggestions (I might take the last part off the level 10, I dunno).


That's really clever what you did!

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## Snowben Gaming

So bunch of fives is now just anything to do with 5? Hmmm... I'll have a think about non-hand related things then (although I do have some hand related ideas that I could still do).

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## MrStabby

*Path of the Dragon Queen*

Wow.  A really cool take on bunch of 5s and it captures that theme right from the start - I love it.  It also seems a really tight match to the Barbarian class as well, really good.




> 3rd: Tiamat's Rage
> Choose an energy type out of (acid, lightning, poison, fire, cold) whenever you start a rage.
> Your melee attacks deal +1d6 damage of the associated type for the duration of the rage, along with you gaining resistance to said type. The bonus damage increases to +2d6 at 11th level.


This is a very solid ability.  Picking an extra source of resistance for rage pretty much takes this up to bear totem resistance levels - in my experience not many encounters are dishing out multiple types of elemental damage in large quantities.  +1d6/+2d6 damage of any time isa great boost.  Getting to pick to match vulnerabilities is just awesome (Ok mostly it just means fire as the most common vulnerability, but getting this and being able to dodge resistance as well is neat).  The Zealot's divine fury is d6+half barbarian level - but importantly just on one attack per turn and just on your turns.





> 6th: Fivefold Retribution
> When an enemy attacks you with advantage (such as after using your Reckless Attack feature) and hits, choose an energy type out of (acid, lightning, poison, fire, cold). The triggering enemy takes 5 damage of the associated type. If the triggering enemy is within 5 feet of you, they must also make a Dexterity saving throw (DC = 8 + your prof bonus + your Strength modifier) or gain vulnerability to said damage type for the next five rounds.


A really interesting ability. 5 damage is a modest amount but, unless you are fighting absolute hodes of enemies, it is the vulnerbility that counts.  And it counts in a big way.  Imagine creating vulnerability then hitting that enemy with a scorching ray for 2*8d6 damage, or just landing a well positioned fireball (so you do fire damage, become fire resistant, give all adjacent enemies attacking you vulnerability to fire then your party sorcerer nukes them?)... or if the party wizard is out of resources they can still land 4d10 firebolt attacks.  And this is all at low level and assuming a single caster in the party; if the party likes arcane casters then the extra damage enabled by this can be obscene.  It is worth noting that one extra thing that makes this nce is that a lot of elemental damage effects rely on dex saves; the probability of failing a dex save being failed given you already failed one (more likely your dex is low) is higher.  Interestingly the attack doesn't have to be within 5ft.  I think that this ability kind of blows a lot of other level 6 barbarian abilities out of the water.  






> 10th: Chromatic Blessing
> Your choice of energy type whenever you rage causes wings reminiscent of the corresponding dragon to sprout from your back for the duration, granting you a fly speed equal to your land speed and the ability to hover, so long as you are wearing light or no armor. You also gain an immunity based on the type chosen (does not apply retroactively) for the duration of the rage:
> Black (Acid) - Immunity to the Petrified condition.
> Blue (Lightning) - Immunity to the Blinded and Deafened conditions.
> Green (Poison) - Immunity to diseases and the Poisoned condition.
> Red (Fire) - Immunity to the Charmed and Frightened conditions.
> White (Cold) - Immunity to the Paralysis and Stunned conditions.


Level 10 on the barbarian is usually a minor affair and an out of combat buff.  

The wording here could do with some clarification - is it just hovering that needs light or no armour or is it also the flying?

Whilst this is both more combat focussed than a lot of barbarian 10 abilities and probably pushing the power a bit it also offers some unique defensive abilities.  Getting to pick your immunities to the fight is really strong.  Getting to rage when surprised AND with advantage in initiative with Feral instincts turns this from being a powerful ability to something very, very nasty indeed (well, for a level 10 ability). However the enemy might try and catch you out you have an answer as long as you have rage.  I imagine immunity to charm and frightened will be common enough - the rest might be rare or conditions against which you have a good save anyway.

And then you get flying on top... not just a great ability but specifically a great ability for a barbarian






> 14th: Strike of the Five Fangs
> Once per turn, you can make a special attack that strikes at up to five targets at once by using your Attack action.
> All targets must be within 30 feet of you, and you cannot strike any given target with this use of the Attack action more than once. Attacks in excess of the number of available targets are wasted.
> These are considered melee weapon attacks, and they use your current melee weapon for attack and damage calculations.
> Each of these five attacks has its own corresponding energy type, which is not shared by the other attacks. All damage dealt by that attack (if it hits) is of the associated type. You choose which of the attacks strikes at any given target.
> If you decide to use your Reckless Attack feature with this ability, its benefit applies to all five strikes.
> You can use this ability up to a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier. Whenever you rage or take a long rest, you regain all expended uses of this attack.


Eesh.  This is another powerful ability.  At this level you are probably lookingat at least +4 to con, 5 rages per day so 24 uses per day (becoming unlimited at 20).

So 5 attacks per round... which you can make with advantage... and at 30ft without much by way of reprisal (and no disengage needed to back further away)... and which keep your rage going... AND they get all your weapon damage modifiers.  The only downside is you can't focus them and you lose out a bit if there are fewer than 5 enemies.  Still, its a high level ability on a class that starts to lose a bit of bite at these levels.



All in all my personal view is that it is an awesome subclass that hangs together well with lots of powerful interactions between the pieces and that has the theme of 5 running all the way through it.  It maybe could use a bit of toning down and trading some combat ability for a little more out of combat ability (which it does seem particularly light on) to make it line up better with other barbarians.

----------


## nickl_2000

> Druid Circle of the 5th Element
> 
> I have had reall difficulty forming a view on this class.  The main reason is that I don't like it but mostly for subjective reasons; it isn't in any way bad.  There is nothing wrong with it.  It isn't that I don't like it because it needs fixing.  It just doesnt appeal.
> 
> So I will try and split my thoughts into two - feelings and thoughts.  Why I don't like it then a more mechanical set of thoughts.
> 
> I don't like it because it doesn't feel like much of a theme - it is an "everything druid" and takes the worst parts of the omnimancer wizard and sorcerer whose spells span so many effects that feel disconnected.
> 
> I don't like it as the things that get added don't feel like a natural extension of what it is to be a druid but rather a bolt-on of everything that feels unnatural. I can see "spitit" druid be cool as the 5th element, but nothing really screams spitit to me.  Where are the spirit guardian, spirit shroud, speak with dead, conjure undead, guardian of faith spells?  Instead we seem to have a "Force" druid.
> ...


Thanks for looking it over.  You are completely right that I need to focus more.  Pick something that is the 5th element (spirit) and focus more on it to make a more coherent subclass.

For the spirit shield all temp hp last like this "Unless a feature that grants you temporary hit points has a duration, they last until they're depleted or you finish a long rest."  So, you can absolutely use it before a short rest (and frankly you should).  However, using it before a long rest is mostly useless.


Major Spatial Manipulation needs some re-writing.  There are two many questions on it and it doesn't fit as well anymore.

----------


## MrStabby

> Thanks for looking it over.  You are completely right that I need to focus more.  Pick something that is the 5th element (spirit) and focus more on it to make a more coherent subclass.
> 
> For the spirit shield all temp hp last like this "Unless a feature that grants you temporary hit points has a duration, they last until they're depleted or you finish a long rest."  So, you can absolutely use it before a short rest (and frankly you should).  However, using it before a long rest is mostly useless.
> 
> 
> Major Spatial Manipulation needs some re-writing.  There are two many questions on it and it doesn't fit as well anymore.


Just don't take my subjective distaste to heart!  It's just a preference.  There is a lot of good stuff there as well.

----------


## nickl_2000

> Just don't take my subjective distaste to heart!  It's just a preference.  There is a lot of good stuff there as well.


As I read through it a little bit, it felt a little bit disjointed and unconnected to the theme of the contest.  I really like the concept of being able to switch allies your ally out of danger and putting someone else in danger and will keep it for the future.  The other abilities are being kept very similar for all but the level 10 ability.  I am just re-flavoring a lot of it to make it fit the theming better than it did before.

I value the opinion of everyone who enters these contests, a lot of the entries I see in here are the same or a higher quality than those put out by Wizards.




I've completed the changes based on your comments.  I like the feel of it a lot better.

----------


## Snowben Gaming

So I have an idea: Since tornados and hurricanes are both measured on scales of 5 (with 5 being the strongest), what about a tornado based subclass. I'm pretty sure this is too far removed from the theme though, so I do have a backup idea, but what do you guys think?

----------


## Damon_Tor

> So I have an idea: Since tornados and hurricanes are both measured on scales of 5 (with 5 being the strongest), what about a tornado based subclass. I'm pretty sure this is too far removed from the theme though, so I do have a backup idea, but what do you guys think?


I mean, yeah, it's a stretch. If you have some really cool ideas and you come up with an awesome subclass I expect nobody will complain too much.

----------


## MrStabby

> So I have an idea: Since tornados and hurricanes are both measured on scales of 5 (with 5 being the strongest), what about a tornado based subclass. I'm pretty sure this is too far removed from the theme though, so I do have a backup idea, but what do you guys think?


So I have no doubt that a good and thematic subclass could be built out of a Strong Wind theme... but I also doubt that if you were to pick it up and play it that you would get that the theme was A Bunch Of Fives; although that might just show my lack of inspiration.

----------


## Damon_Tor

More feedback




> *Wizard: School of Chiromancy*





> *Hex Hands*
> Using specially prepared inks and ancient incantations passed down by the school, your hands are marked with special flowing patterns that highlight the unique patterns pre-existing on your hands, granting you powerful capabilities. These are your hex hands.
> 
> At 2nd level, you no longer carry a spellbook for your spells, instead now associated with mnemonic devices of magic in your hands. The total number of spells that you are able to memorize and cast as such is now 5 + your wizard level + your Intelligence modifier. You always have these spells prepared. You can still cast a wizard spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and you know it. 
> 
> As you level up, you gain knowledge through practice of gestures and applying new mnemonic techniques through your hands. Each time you level up, you can learn up to 2 new spells. Whenever you want to learn a new spell and have reached your limit, you can switch out a spell you already know and replace it with a spell, assigning it that somatic mnemonic technique. You can still copy a spell from an external source such as a scroll or book as normal, still spending the requisite gold and material components.


I feel like this is a big departure from how wizards operate and what makes them distinct from other spellcasters for very little interesting difference in play. And this is reflected in how many words you need in this feature to make it work. My suggestion would be to either let them keep their spellbook while their hands give some bonus spells prepared per day, or you simply straight up say "you treat your hands and the markings on them as your spellbook." Otherwise you have this big cumbersome feature explaining how something which is not a spellbook acts basically like a spellbook when you could just keep it simple.




> If your hands are heavily damaged or cut off, you can still cast spells, but you do so with disadvantage until your hands are healed and or regenerated. Alternately, magical prosthetics could act in place of them.


I don't feel like this is necessary and it's not clear to me what this feature is trying to do. Missing your hand you're already unable to cast somatic or material spells, which is most of them. Also "casting spells with disadvantage" isn't a meaningful phrase mechanically. You can have disadvantage on spell attacks, or enemies can have advantage on saves against your spells (but many spells include neither attacks nor saves).




> Additionally, all spells that use only vocal components can now be cast with only somatic components if you are unable to speak (such as being mute or damaged vocal chords) and thus,unable to provide the vocal components.


An odd feature, in that it only grants its benefit when you are incapacitated. Would you expect the wizard to cut their own larynx so they can cast silently? Why not just say "You can replace the vocal components of spells you cast with somatic components". It would be a strong feature for stealth-casters, but at least there wouldn't be the perverse incentive to injure yourself to gain the same benefit.




> When you reach Spell Mastery at 18th level, when you choose a 1st-level wizard spell and a 2nd-level wizard spell, you can cast those spells at their lowest level without expending a spell slot. They must have a somatic component and they no longer count against you total number of spells known. As such, you now learn two new spells from the wizarding spell list. You can still spend 8 hours to practice and exchange one or both of the spells you chose for different spells of the same levels that you know.


This just seems like more "how to make the wizard functional while totally changing the way they prepare spells" but maybe I'm missing something? Adding an additional restriction (albeit a very minor one) to an existing wizard feature is an odd choice. After all, evocation wizards don't have to pick evocation spells for their mastered spells.




> When you reach Signature Spell at 20th level, you still choose two 3rd-level wizard spells to become your signature spells.  They don't count against the number of spells you have prepared and as such, you now learn two new spells from the wizarding spell list. If they have a somatic component, you can cast those spells at 3rd-level without expanding spell slots a number of times equal to your Dexterity modifier. You regain all expanded uses after a long rest.


Strange change to an existing wizard feature. Signature Spells go from 1/short rest to DexMod/long rest. Probably a mild improvement depending on how your group rests, but like... why? A very minor change for a feature that is already taking way more ink than it should.





> *Magical Handiwork* 
> Your devotion into the magical arts through your hex hands has granted you some special gifts. At 2nd level, you now learn the cantrip _mage hand_ if you did not know it already. The cantrip does not count toward your total number of cantrips known. 
> 
> Whenever you cast _mage hand_, it now has a range of 60 ft and can be cast as a bonus action. You can also spend a bonus action to move the mage hand up to 60 ft.
> 
> Additionally, you now gain proficiency in the Sleight of Hand (Dexterity) skill.


A feature that gives you a flavorful game element "if you did not know it already" without compensating you if you DID already know it is annoying. It creates a situation where a "hand wizard" is incentivized NOT to take mage hand at level 1 because if he does he misses out on a bonus cantrip. Class features which add skill/tool proficiency sometimes don't do this because there's a general rule specifically allowing you to learn a different skill or tool if you would gain one you already have, but as cantrips have no such general rule it should be added directly.




> *The Magic Touch*
> By 6th level, your practice of spellcasting through sacred gestures primarily has honed your hands to greater abilities, letting you do more with magic. You gain the following benefits: 
> Whenever you make a spell attack roll, you can add your Dexterity modifier (min 1.) It must have a somatic component to apply this bonus to it.If your hands are bound and you have the spell _mage hand_ active, you can use your mage hand to provide the somatic component to cast a spell.When you cast a spell with a range of touch, you can deliver the spell with your mage hand if it is already active.As an action, you can now make a melee spell attack with your mage hand, counting as a cantrip. If the attack hits, it deals the following result in force damage: (1d4 + 1) x your proficiency bonus.


1. In general, adding a very large bonus (up to +5 in this case) to attack rolls is frowned upon. 5e operates on a bounded accuracy system, at least in theory, which makes effects like this inappropriate.
2. Another feature that gives a lovely bonus but only if some otherwise bad thing is happening. Just allow the wizard to always perform somatic components with mage hand.
3. This is a great feature and I like it  :Small Smile: 
4. I would just have this scale like a cantrip, and deal 2d4 damage when you get the feature, 3d4 at 11th level, and 4d4 at 17th. I still don't think it would be used much though, the damage should go up at least to d8s to be competitive, but I would make I would actually make it d10 to put it on par with a firebolt. Because... otherwise why not just use firebolt?




> *Powerful Palmistry* 
> Beginning at 10th level, your hex hands have grow strong enough to help stand up to whatever tries to break your focus. Whenever you make a spell concentration check with a spell that has a somatic component, you can add your profiency bonus.


I have no issues with this.




> Additionally, you now learn the spell _Bigbys hand_ if you dont know it already. The spell does not count toward your total number of spells known. When you cast _Bigbys hand_, you do not need vocal or material components to cast it. You do gain the bonus of The Magic Touch feature.


Fine except for the whole "wouldn't a hand-themed wizard definitely already have this spell and why should they be incentivized to _not_ have it?" issue.




> *The Hand of Hamsa*
> By 14th level, you have unlocked the ultimate secret of the hex hands, the power of the _hamsa_, the powerful palm of protection. As a bonus action, you can activate the _hamsa_ and ward yourself with powerful magic, your hex hands glowing. For 1 minute, you have the following benefits:
> You have resistance against the damage of spells.Your AC is increased by your Intelligence modifier (min 1.)If a hostile creature is concentrating on a spell, you can use an action or bonus action to disrupt their spellcasting with your protective palm, either by touching them yourself or with your _mage hand_. They need to make a concentration check against your spell save DC. If they fail, their spell ends and they take psychic damage equal to your wizard level.
> You are considered to be concentrating on a spell though you do not make spell concentration checks if you are attacked by a spell. You can only use this a number of times equal to your Dexterity modifier (min 1). You regain all expanded uses after a long rest.
> 
> You can also spend a short rest to heal or even regrow your hex hands if they were damaged or cut off, as if you had the spell _regenerate_ cast on you.


This is a cool capstone.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> *Monk: Way of Balance* (inspired by ATLA)
> 
> Earth, wind, fire and air are the basic elements that surround us everywhere. However, there is the fifth element - cosmic energy - which embraces every species in the world. Monks of Balance learn how to manipulate each of the elements, including energy within themselves or energy within other folk.


I guess the big issue for me is "will this be thematically distinct from the Four Elements Monk?" What does the "5th element" really add to an already well established archetype?




> *Air and Water*
> Starting at 3rd level, when you choose this tradition, you learn the following techniques:
> _Dodge and Evade._  Air is the element of freedom, and you are ever against harming people except in the direst of circumstances. After you take the Dodge action, you can can use your bonus action to hurl a blast of air against your enemy. The blast counts as a simple ranged weapon that has Thrown(20/60) and Finesse properties. The blast deals bludgeoning damage equal to your Martial Arts die. If you drop a creature to 0 hit points using this attack, you knock the target unconscious, but it is stable.


So when you dodge (as an action: Monks do get Patient Defense after all, but since that's a bonus action the two features won't ever interact) you get a ranged bonus action attack? And it's... pretty basic. No better than a monk just throwing a dagger or something. I mean, it's 1 ki less expensive than Patient Defense + Attack Action but still pretty underwhelming.




> _Healing Wave._  Water is cold and calm, and you can use its powers to heal your allies from harm. If you hold a full waterskin in your hand, you can use your action to create a wave of healing energy transferred through water that jumps toward a target of your choice that you can see within range. Three waves then leap from that target to as many as three other targets, each of which must be within 30 feet of the first target. A target can be a creature and can be targeted by only one of the waves.
> The target regains 3d8 hit points. When you use this feature, you must expend a number of ki points equal to the total number of the targets.


That's a very efficient heal. Which is fine.




> *Tremorsense*
> Earth is silent and unmoving. Beginning at 6th level, you gain tremorsense to a radius equal to your walking speed.


I'm not 100% sure why your tremorsense increases with your walking speed of all things but this is a fine feature.




> *Dancing Dragon*
> Fire is the most misunderstood element of all. 
> Beginning at 11th level, you can spend 7 ki points to use one of the following breath weapons:
> _Fire Breath._ You exhale fire in a 40-foot line that is 5 feet wide. Each creature in that line must make a Dexterity saving throw, taking 12d6 fire damage on a failed saving throw, or half as much damage on a successful one.


This steps mightily on the 4-element monk's toes, 7 ki for 12d6 damage at 11th level while the best the 4 element monk can do at this level is a 5d6 burning hands for 4 ki, only getting a 7d6 burning hands at 17th level.




> _Sleep Breath._ You exhale sleep gas in a 30-foot cone. Each creature in that area must succeed on a Constitution saving throw, or fall unconscious for 5 minutes. This effect ends for a creature if the creature takes damage or someone uses an action to wake it.


I'm not sure what, thematically, this has to do with fire, though maybe this is that 5th element finally showing up? This is also a very powerful, potentially encounter-trivializing effect, and probably not appropriate on a monk.




> *Weave Blocking*
> At 17th level, you learn the technique that allows you temporarily block spellcasting of other creatures. 
> As an action, you can touch a creature and spend 10 ki points to attempt to cut a spellcaster off from its source of power. Make a Wisdom check contested with the targets Wisdom check. If you succeed on the check, the creature cant cast spells for the next minute. If you succeed on the check by 5 or more, the creature instead cant cast spells for the next 24 hours. If you attack the target in any way, the target is freed from the effect.


This is a neat feature, but when compared to the Quivering Palm's ability to inflict a more powerful status effect (ie "dead") a 1 minute/24 hour loss of spellcasting ability seems pretty weak. Especially because you're also prohibited from attacking them or the effect gets lost.

Overall the biggest issue I have with this is that it feels like a remake of the 4 elements monk, with something approaching a "5th element" not showing up until 17th (or maybe 11th?) level. And doesn't add much to the monk chassis, tacking on spell-like effects fueled by ki (which the 4 elements monk is also guilty of, but it does have a selection of disciplines that work okay with the monk gameplay loop)

----------


## Edea

> -snip-


Thanks for the critique.  I'm very strongly considering re-doing the latter level 10 part; the flight I like, but those immunities were tacked on in an attempt to make the choices feel 'different' from one another.  Going to try to figure out more utilitarian effects to put in their place that would still make sense to have active during a rage.

For the level 14, in honesty I'd be fine with that attack explicitly being long-rest recharge only, but I'm having a hard time putting my finger on the ability's equivalent spell level (i.e. is the barb at that level getting a toy that helps him keep up ever-so-slightly with the craziness casters get and how often they get them).  Theme-wise I love it (I basically envision five dragon heads emerging from the barbarian's neck and stretching out to snap at foes in range), but I agree mechanically it could use tightening.

----------


## MrStabby

> Thanks for the critique.  I'm very strongly considering re-doing the latter level 10 part; the flight I like, but those immunities were tacked on in an attempt to make the choices feel 'different' from one another.  Going to try to figure out more utilitarian effects to put in their place that would still make sense to have active during a rage.
> 
> For the level 14, in honesty I'd be fine with that attack explicitly being long-rest recharge only, but I'm having a hard time putting my finger on the ability's equivalent spell level (i.e. is the barb at that level getting a toy that helps him keep up ever-so-slightly with the craziness casters get and how often they get them).  Theme-wise I love it (I basically envision five dragon heads emerging from the barbarian's neck and stretching out to snap at foes in range), but I agree mechanically it could use tightening.


For the level 10 my feeling was the opposite. The immunities were really cool and unlike anything else on another class.  It gave you an incentive to read combat, to predict, to use out of combat intelligence gathering and it synergised with other class features.  It was also different from "oh and here is another ability with damage types" and felt like it was bringing the multiple of 5 theme through.

Flight... is just flight.  A lot of classes get it.  Spells give it.  It just doesn't feel so special to me.

----------


## CountDVB

> I feel like this is a big departure from how wizards operate and what makes them distinct from other spellcasters for very little interesting difference in play. And this is reflected in how many words you need in this feature to make it work. My suggestion would be to either let them keep their spellbook while their hands give some bonus spells prepared per day, or you simply straight up say "you treat your hands and the markings on them as your spellbook." Otherwise you have this big cumbersome feature explaining how something which is not a spellbook acts basically like a spellbook when you could just keep it simple.
> 
> I don't feel like this is necessary and it's not clear to me what this feature is trying to do. Missing your hand you're already unable to cast somatic or material spells, which is most of them. Also "casting spells with disadvantage" isn't a meaningful phrase mechanically. You can have disadvantage on spell attacks, or enemies can have advantage on saves against your spells (but many spells include neither attacks nor saves).
> 
> An odd feature, in that it only grants its benefit when you are incapacitated. Would you expect the wizard to cut their own larynx so they can cast silently? Why not just say "You can replace the vocal components of spells you cast with somatic components". It would be a strong feature for stealth-casters, but at least there wouldn't be the perverse incentive to injure yourself to gain the same benefit.
> 
> This just seems like more "how to make the wizard functional while totally changing the way they prepare spells" but maybe I'm missing something? Adding an additional restriction (albeit a very minor one) to an existing wizard feature is an odd choice. After all, evocation wizards don't have to pick evocation spells for their mastered spells.
> 
> Strange change to an existing wizard feature. Signature Spells go from 1/short rest to DexMod/long rest. Probably a mild improvement depending on how your group rests, but like... why? A very minor change for a feature that is already taking way more ink than it should.
> ...


I thank you fo yur extensive feedback. One of my things is trying to figure out how to best word things, since sometimes I feel like I am either too vague or basic or too verbose in explaining things and I appreciate you helping me out. I guess I do try and figure out how to address the stuff.

An inspiration for this, besides palm reading and hand signs, was actually sign language and thought it'd be cool for a wizarding subclass for those mute or whatnot with that.

Well, it does scale. The thing with the mage hand was admittingly also wanted a way to keep a joke about 5s after all. But I figure out something with that.

----------


## Lvl45DM!

> So I have an idea: Since tornados and hurricanes are both measured on scales of 5 (with 5 being the strongest), what about a tornado based subclass. I'm pretty sure this is too far removed from the theme though, so I do have a backup idea, but what do you guys think?


I'd suggest a fighter class based around it. 5 features, each one with an increased category level. Only Cleric and Fighters have 5 features, and Cleric at least one of them is taken up

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## Snowben Gaming

> I'd suggest a fighter class based around it. 5 features, each one with an increased category level. Only Cleric and Fighters have 5 features, and Cleric at least one of them is taken up


I was actually thinking fighter, but I'm gonna put that idea on hold for a later time and make something closer to the theme. I just haven't decided what yet. In the meantime, I guess I'll do some reviews.

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## Damon_Tor

> I'd suggest a fighter class based around it. 5 features, each one with an increased category level. Only Cleric and Fighters have 5 features, and Cleric at least one of them is taken up


Interestingly enough a few contests back Molemage released a storm-themed fighter subclass with 5-level-deep "stances" which were based on the stance mechanic I wrote for my own entry.

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## Lvl45DM!

> Interestingly enough a few contests back Molemage released a storm-themed fighter subclass with 5-level-deep "stances" which were based on the stance mechanic I wrote for my own entry.


Ah neato. Its interesting that fighter has the most actual features from subclasses actually.

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## sengmeng

I guess the the Student of the Five Rings is playable. PEACH if you want but it will probably get a complete overhaul soon.

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## Snowben Gaming

Finally got an idea I like for my own entry, just need to actually make it.
But first, REVIEWS!

*Spoiler: Circle of the 5th Element*
Show


*Circle Spells + Minor Spatial Manipulation:* Circle spells are always nice and a free cantrip is even nicer, nothing more to say here.

*Spirit Shield:* This seems _waaaay_ too underpowered to me. The Circle of Spores' Symbiotic Entity, which uses the same resource, grants 4X druid level temp hp _and_ extra damage, whereas this is just 2X druid level. I guess you can split them across your allies, but when you get this splitting them across the whole party will give each member 1 temp hp in a 4 person party. This just feels too weak to me, but I could be wrong, especially as later abilities build on it and it scales with level.

*Spiritual Repulsion:* OOOOOH boy, this skyrockets the power of Spirit Shield in a very satisfying way. This more than makes up for Spirit Shield being a bit weaker than I would've liked. 

*Haunting:* The madness tables are underused, so this is a really snazzy ability. I like it! I'm not sure if 1/long rest is too little though, but its probably fine.

*Complete Spatial Awareness:* I assume this is supposed to be the True Sight spell as "Truesight" isn't a spell. If so, this is definitely _way_ too OP. Permanent truesight is only available through the Boon of Truesight: an _Epic Boon_, so granting truesight at 14th level is way too strong.

*Final Thoughts:* I would absolutely play this! Its a tad weak at early levels, but mid levels more than make up for that. I like the theme and I think you've mechanically represented that quite well.


*Spoiler: The Maverick*
Show


*Escamotage:* Bonus proficiencies are nice, but the snazzy dagger buffs and sneak attack generation is real good. 

*Hidden Pockets:* Pretty neat ribbon ability that's really thematic.

*All In:* KNIVES! ALL THE KNIVES!!! Splitting Sneak Attack is really good and adds some much needed AOE/multi-target capacity to the rogue.

*Jinx:* Giving disadvantage is pretty cool, especially on Initiative.

*Borrowed Luck:* Crit storage is a cool idea, but I'm not sure how often it would actually occur in play.

*Final Thoughts:* This is good. Really good. Would play. Probably will play. Good job.

----------


## nickl_2000

> *Spoiler: Circle of the 5th Element*
> Show
> 
> 
> *Circle Spells + Minor Spatial Manipulation:* Circle spells are always nice and a free cantrip is even nicer, nothing more to say here.
> 
> *Spirit Shield:* This seems _waaaay_ too underpowered to me. The Circle of Spores' Symbiotic Entity, which uses the same resource, grants 4X druid level temp hp _and_ extra damage, whereas this is just 2X druid level. I guess you can split them across your allies, but when you get this splitting them across the whole party will give each member 1 temp hp in a 4 person party. This just feels too weak to me, but I could be wrong, especially as later abilities build on it and it scales with level.
> 
> *Spiritual Repulsion:* OOOOOH boy, this skyrockets the power of Spirit Shield in a very satisfying way. This more than makes up for Spirit Shield being a bit weaker than I would've liked. 
> ...


If I did 3x Temp HP at level 2, would that be broken for the level 6 ability?

For the haunting, maddness can be really, really disabling.  Allowing multiple per day would be extremely powerful.

For spatial awareness, what if I were to give 30 foot blindsight?  Would that be more appropriate?

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## Snowben Gaming

> If I did 3x Temp HP at level 2, would that be broken for the level 6 ability?


 3x druid level seems good to me, and the 6th level is only non-magical physical, by level 6 at least _something_ is gonna be dealing magic physical or non-physical damage.




> For the haunting, maddness can be really, really disabling.  Allowing multiple per day would be extremely powerful.


Yeah, after reading the madness tables in more detail, I've gotta agree with you on this one.




> For spatial awareness, what if I were to give 30 foot blindsight?  Would that be more appropriate?


 Sounds good to me.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Changed my mind: its morphing time.
> 
> *Spoiler: Note*
> Show
> 
> I don't do cocaine, but I feel like if I did, this is what I would submit...


I'm dying reading this, the theme song blasting in my head like it's Saturdary morning and I'm 5. Well done.




> *Ranger Archetype: 5 Colors of Power*
> As a champion of cosmic order you stand firm with chosen allies against the deadliest of forces bent on destruction or domination.
> 
> Bonus Spells
> 1. _Find Familiar, Protection from Evil and Good_
> 2. _Enhance Ability, Find Steed_
> 3. _Beacon of Hope, Crusaders Mantle_
> 4. _Find Greater Steed, Summon Construct_
> 5. _Arcane Hand, Teleportation Circle_
> ...


Well right off the bat, you should probably limit this to humanoids at least: I forsee a very strange sequence of events where you summon a warhorse who is the red ranger, then summon for that warhorse another warhorse who is the blue ranger, then summon for that warhorse another warhorse who is the black ranger, until you're riding on top of 5 multicolored horses each bigger than the last and everything is very silly.

Quibble: I would move the fall damage immunity for pink to here. I'll talk more about that below.




> *Mighty Steeds*
> Beginning at 7th level you can conjure forth powerful steeds of steel hide and wire sinew to swiftly carry your chosen allies.  When you cast _Find Steed_ or _Find Greater Steed_ you can use this feature to create a number of creatures equal to your proficiency bonus that share the colors of your Chosen Allies.  Each steed is sized to be a mount for the Chosen Ally whose color matches its own.  These Steeds remain until you choose different allies to bear your colors, you cast either of these spells again, or they are reduced to 0 hit points.  Only the creature whose color matches the steed can ride it.  
> 
> In addition to being constructs which do not require food, water, or sleep each Steed's color confers certain benefits as detailed below.
> 
> *Red*. While mounted the steed and rider have resistance to Fire Damage.
> *Blue*. While mounted the steed and rider have resistance to Lightning and Thunder Damage.
> *Black*. While mounted the steed and rider have resistance to Bludgeoning Damage.
> *Yellow*. While mounted the steed and rider have resistance to Acid and Poison Damage.
> *Pink*. While mounted the steed and rider are immune to falling damage and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.


This is delightful. Probably really freaking OP, but delightful. You should probably include some language here transferring the normal benefits of the steed spells (like telepathy and ability to give orders and such) to the intended rider rather than yourself. You should probably consider some kind of added cost for this: maybe require 1 additional 1st level or higher spell slot per additional creature summoned? This would still be a bargain, getting 5 greater steeds for a 5th levels slot plus 4 1st level slots.

The reason I feel like the fall damage immunity should be moved is this: the main reason you would want fall immunity in this context is if you fall OFF your steed... at which point you would presumably no longer benefit from this effect, making it kind of useless.




> *Unity Assault*
> At 10th level and beyond it becomes possible to perform a potent combination attack with a nearby Chosen Ally.  When you are within 5 feet of a Chosen Ally you can perform a Unity Assault. When the ally makes an attack or casts a spell you can use your reaction to expend a spell slot and empower it as follows:
> One target of the spell or attack must make a Dexterity save against your Spell DC and suffers 2d8 additional damage + 1d8 for each level of the spell slot, a successful save halves the damage.  Additional Chosen Allies within 5 feet can use their reaction to add 1d8 additional damage as well.  The type of damage is determined by the color of the ally that made the triggering attack.  You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus.
> 
> *Red*. Fire.
> *Blue*. Lightning.
> *Black*. Bludgeoning or Piercing.
> *Yellow*. Acid.
> *Pink*. Psychic.


This might be one of my favorite features so far from any of these contests. I know this is a joke entry and everything, but this is so freaking cool. I want to see something like this on a serious subclass.




> *Prismatic Golem God* 
> At 15th level the secret power of your allies can be realized in full.  You can now assign a previously unknown color of your choosing, such as green or white, to yourself or a Chosen Ally which confers the following benefits:
> 
> *Unknown Color*. The creature can use a bonus action to teleport up to 60 feet to space within 5 feet of any Chosen Ally.  While mounted on an Elemental Steed the mount and rider are resistant to force and psychic damage.  The damage type of a the Unknown Color's Unity Assault is Force.


Neat.




> When you cast _Summon Construct_ each willing Chosen Ally including you can use their reaction to sacrifice their steed and have it transform and combine with the summoned Construct.  The steeds disappear and the construct's size increases to Huge.  For every steed added to the construct, the spell is treated as if cast with a slot one level higher to a limit of 9th.  If 4 or more Steeds are added the size increases to Gargantuan. You can treat this construct as a Chosen Ally for your Unity Assault feature. You can cast _Summon Construct_ in this way once and must complete a long rest before doing so again.


This is a _really_ elegant way to make a potentially overly complex ability work, and work well. This is another ability I'd like to see on a more serious entry. It's overpowered as written (I doubt this is news to you) but I think my suggestion above adding an extra cost to multi-mount summons would help to keep this in line, at least a _little_.

You should probably have the rangers automatically mount the megazord as long as they're actively mounted on their zord.

This was amazing, man. Really, really well done.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> I'm dying reading this, the theme song blasting in my head like it's Saturdary morning and I'm 5. Well done.
> 
> 
> 
> Well right off the bat, you should probably limit this to humanoids at least: I forsee a very strange sequence of events where you summon a warhorse who is the red ranger, then summon for that warhorse another warhorse who is the blue ranger, then summon for that warhorse another warhorse who is the black ranger, until you're riding on top of 5 multicolored horses each bigger than the last and everything is very silly.
> 
> Quibble: I would move the fall damage immunity for pink to here. I'll talk more about that below.
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot for the positive feedback. I see your point about the Humanoid limitation.  I think I'll make the limit Intelligence based.  That would void most familiars, mounts, and pets, but I didn't want something that could be construed as racist since it would eliminate Hexbloods and fairies as viable options... I'll add a line to Mighty Steeds about them being sized as a mount or large, whichever is smaller.  That way if you have a huge PC (not common but everything is up to the DM) they can maybe get a mighty hunting beast instead of steed.

The fall immunity was really for having the mount leap off of high things, but I guess if it gets shot out of the air it disappears, I'll swap to resisting psychic and bring the unknown color to just force.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> I think I'll make the limit Intelligence based.  That would void most familiars, mounts, and pets, but I didn't want something that could be construed as racist since it would eliminate Hexbloods and fairies as viable options... I'll add a line to Mighty Steeds about them being sized as a mount or large, whichever is smaller.  That way if you have a huge PC (not common but everything is up to the DM) they can maybe get a mighty hunting beast instead of steed.


A Pegasus has an int of 10, and is one of the default choices listed for Find Greater Steed, and all Steeds/Greater Steeds have a minimum int of 6: since 5th edition started I've had more 6 int or lower PCs (3) at my table than I have fairy PCs (1) so I'm not sure this limitation would be any more effective at solving the problem. (Hexbloods are "fey and humanoid" so a "humanoids only" restriction would include them just fine)

Maybe you could instead limit it to "creatures with at least one level in any class". This should mostly limit the ability to effecting PCs and "sidekick" companion characters, which is probably what you're going for.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> A Pegasus has an int of 10, and is one of the default choices listed for Find Greater Steed, and all Steeds/Greater Steeds have a minimum int of 6: since 5th edition started I've had more 6 int or lower PCs (3) at my table than I have fairy PCs (1) so I'm not sure this limitation would be any more effective at solving the problem. (Hexbloods are "fey and humanoid" so a "humanoids only" restriction would include them just fine)
> 
> Maybe you could instead limit it to "creatures with at least one level in any class". This should mostly limit the ability to effecting PCs and "sidekick" companion characters, which is probably what you're going for.


Final rules for Hexbloods has them as Fey, Dhamps and Reborn are just humanoid, so I think dual typing is a no go.  I suspect future races will also be single type.  My ooze race, the Aez, were Ooze but I added a feature "made to serve" tied into their origin which makes them subject to the "Charm/Hold/Dominate Person" spells and others that target humanoids... digression.  

I'd swear there was a sentai dog at some point on the Japanese shows, I know the original white ranger was a kid that became a full sized ranger... Sidekick rules can be applied to things like animal companions and favorite mounts anyway so I don't see it being a problem.  If there's an obvious abuse I'm missing let me know.

As I understand Find Steed and Find Greater Steed, if you recast the spell the previous steed disappears.  As I've written the feature, the additional steeds disappear if you cast either spell again or reassign colors, so mount stacking was never an issue.

----------


## MrStabby

> *Rogue - Hand of the Dead*
> Rogues who master the Hand of the Dead are masters of games of chance; the title is based on a particularly famous master who died while playing Three Dragon Ante. All rogues of this sort are incorrigible gamblers, no matter what style of gaming they dedicate themselves to.
> 
> *Itinerant Gambler*
> At third level, you gain proficiency and expertise in any one gaming set of your choice.   You can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make with any gaming set that doesn't already include your proficiency bonus.  If you are also proficient in Sleight of Hand, you always roll ability checks for gaming sets with advantage.
> 
> *Luck of the Draw*
> Also at third level, as part of completing a short or long rest, you can play a game with a gaming set in your possession that you are proficient in, with or without opponents.  Make a Dexterity-based ability check with your gaming set, and divide the result by 5, rounding down.  This many times, you may re-roll any die for any reason; all remaining uses expire when you begin a rest.
> 
> ...


I presume level 9 and 13 abilities are supposed to be different?

----------


## Ilerien

Jumping into the last car of a leaving train with Warlock of the Weaver. Feedback is very welcome, though I understand there probably will be none within timeframe this short. :)

----------


## MrStabby

> Jumping into the last car of a leaving train with Warlock of the Weaver. Feedback is very welcome, though I understand there probably will be none within timeframe this short. :)


Oh  I will take a look shortly!  Let's see if I can squeeze a review in.

This makes a point... I should have said my evil domain was up and ready!  It makes sense now that there was no feedback! I never said it was done.  So er... similarly late, but go for it.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Jumping into the last car of a leaving train with Warlock of the Weaver. Feedback is very welcome, though I understand there probably will be none within timeframe this short. :)


I'll say it looks neat. Spell slot recovery shenanigans are something I would have to sit down and math out to see how good it really is. It feels very strong: the ability to turn 1 5th level slot into 5 1st level slots definitely has a bunch of excellent uses (_shield_ comes to mind) but I don't think it's broken.

The mote system feels fiddly to me, but interesting enough. I'm not exactly sure how the system for upgrading the size of the dice is supposed to work. If you have 5 motes do you have 5d12 or 1d4+1d6+1d8+1d10+1d12? It just needs to be clearer.

Energy Efficiency is highly circumstantial, but I guess that's okay considering that isn't alone at 1st level.

Spell Penetration is also circumstantial, and since that's all you get at 10th level it's a bit more of an issue for me.

----------


## Ilerien

> I'll say it looks neat. Spell slot recovery shenanigans are something I would have to sit down and math out to see how good it really is. It feels very strong: the ability to turn 1 5th level slot into 5 1st level slots definitely has a bunch of excellent uses (_shield_ comes to mind) but I don't think it's broken.
> 
> The mote system feels fiddly to me, but interesting enough. I'm not exactly sure how the system for upgrading the size of the dice is supposed to work. If you have 5 motes do you have 5d12 or 1d4+1d6+1d8+1d10+1d12? It just needs to be clearer.
> 
> Energy Efficiency is highly circumstantial, but I guess that's okay considering that isn't alone at 1st level.
> 
> Spell Penetration is also circumstantial, and since that's all you get at 10th level it's a bit more of an issue for me.


Thank you for taking a look! 
Spell slot recovery is actually the core innovation here. Shield crossed my mind too, but with current spell list you don't have it out of the box. Which, on second thought, is maybe bad, because shield is the ultimate spell of 1st level that doesn't benefit from upcasting.
For now, I think I'll place a hard limit on the number of times you can do the slot split thingy and add shield.

Thanks for pointing out vague wording. It's meant to be 5d12. :) 

Energy efficiency is very circumstantial, the ribbon-y feel is intended.

Spell Penetration is indeed circumstancial, but the number of monsters with magic resistance is pretty large. I should probably add magic resistance to the warlock itself.

----------


## MoleMage

Wow, I lost track of time. It's been a busy month for me though so maybe it's for the best that I didn't try to add one more subclass to my docket.

In any event, it's voting time! https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...7#post25085537

----------


## nickl_2000

> Wow, I lost track of time. It's been a busy month for me though so maybe it's for the best that I didn't try to add one more subclass to my docket.
> 
> In any event, it's voting time! https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...7#post25085537


Sorry folks, I didn't get all reviews done since I lost track of time myself.  Looks like a lot of good entries though!

----------


## Snowben Gaming

> Wow, I lost track of time. It's been a busy month for me though so maybe it's for the best that I didn't try to add one more subclass to my docket.
> 
> In any event, it's voting time! https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...7#post25085537


Well I clearly have no ability to keep track of time, as this is the 2nd contest in a row that's mostly just slipped by me. Well, at least I'd changed my mind and decided not to enter due to how busy I am irl right now, but I at least wanted to review some of the cool stuff all the rest of you made.

Ah well, there's always next time I guess.

----------


## MrStabby

> Sorry folks, I didn't get all reviews done since I lost track of time myself.  Looks like a lot of good entries though!


I fount this one OK, and I think I managed to coment on most - or at least most of those that looked ready for review.  What I totally, totally failed at was the full class contest.  For each entry there is so much to take on, so many interactions to evaluate, so many measures for success that I think I reviewed only a small fraction of the total... and then to vote I still have to process the rest anyway!

----------


## nickl_2000

> I fount this one OK, and I think I managed to coment on most - or at least most of those that looked ready for review.  What I totally, totally failed at was the full class contest.  For each entry there is so much to take on, so many interactions to evaluate, so many measures for success that I think I reviewed only a small fraction of the total... and then to vote I still have to process the rest anyway!


That is 90% of the reason I don't do the full class contest.  The last 10% is a combination of not really seeing the design space for multiple new classes and not wanting to use up all my ideas.

----------


## CountDVB

Ummm... I think votes need to be tallied

----------


## MoleMage

It's going to be a little bit late, I have been in the hospital for the last couple days. My treatment was effective and I'm supposed to be discharged later today, so hopefully this weekend I'll be feeling chipper enough to tally everything up and start the new thread.

----------


## nickl_2000

> It's going to be a little bit late, I have been in the hospital for the last couple days. My treatment was effective and I'm supposed to be discharged later today, so hopefully this weekend I'll be feeling chipper enough to tally everything up and start the new thread.


No worries, there are things that are more important.  Feel free to PM if there is anything I can do to help.

----------


## Ilerien

> It's going to be a little bit late, I have been in the hospital for the last couple days. My treatment was effective and I'm supposed to be discharged later today, so hopefully this weekend I'll be feeling chipper enough to tally everything up and start the new thread.


Please, take your time and get well!

----------


## MoleMage

> I'm back at the keyboard so here's the contest results!
> 
> In 3rd place, with 9 points total, it's Ilerien's *Weaver Patron* for Warlocks. Wear a stylish glove! Manipulate the threads of magic! Use wands and staffs more efficiently!
> 
> In 2nd place, with 10 points total, it's BerzerkerUnit's *5 Colors of Power Ranger*. Be a Power Ranger! Force your friends to wear certain colors whether they want it or not!
> 
> And in 1st place, with 13 points total, it's Edea's *Path of the Dragon Queen*. Unleash the wrath of the five-headed dragon god! Change your energy type each time you rage! Deal damage to hordes better than any other barbarian!
> 
> And our winner for theme by a landslide was *Bigger is Better*. I'll have it formatted soon and posted to the chat thread. *Warriors of Old* was our runner-up so it'll stay in the voting pool for next time. Good luck in the next contest, everyone!


Time for that new contest smell, or whatever sensation purely digital creations have!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...gger-is-Better

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## Ilerien

I'm curious. Does it fit the next contest theme is it benefits from the opposition being bigger than the character?

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## Damon_Tor

> I'm curious. Does it fit the next contest theme is it benefits from the opposition being bigger than the character?


We are super loose with the themes. Look at how much we all stretched the "five" concept last time. I think a class that likes his opponents bigger is just fine.

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## Ilerien

> We are super loose with the themes. Look at how much we all stretched the "five" concept last time. I think a class that likes his opponents bigger is just fine.


Then let me present a halfling monk that really excels at taking down foes of medium or larger size.  :Small Smile:

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## nickl_2000

I won't do it because it's to crass for a public website.  However, I  may make a seduction based Bard subclass that has the ability to enlarge certain parts to make myself laugh...

I find the idea humorous though

----------


## Crim the Cold

Tree of Life sorcerous origin is up in the contest thread. It is intended to be a take on characters who use their magical power to increase their physical might and therefore is intended to allow a sorcerer to be a secondary or tertiary melee character if needed. I would appreciate any tweaks and suggestions.

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## Snowben Gaming

It's not finished (it's not even half done) yet, but I figured I'd stick what I do have for my entry up. Therefore, introducing the College of Reputations: with a larger than life reputation, these bards take a more abstract approach to the theme, although it will get more literal once I finish it. I'll hopefully have finished my entry by the end of the week.

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## nickl_2000

Would creating an Elastgirl/Plasticman/Mr. Fantastic/Ms. Marvel type subclass be to much of a stretch (ahhhhh, to much of a stretch, get it?   :Small Tongue: ) for a contest about being bigger?

----------


## MrStabby

> Would creating an Elastgirl/Plasticman/Mr. Fantastic/Ms. Marvel type subclass be to much of a stretch (ahhhhh, to much of a stretch, get it?  ) for a contest about being bigger?


That's an incredible idea.

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## nickl_2000

> That's an incredible idea.

----------


## Kuulvheysoon

Apparently silly works? Threw something together just for the heck of it.

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## nickl_2000

> Apparently silly works? Threw something together just for the heck of it.


Yes, silly, yet effective, often does incredibly well with this crowd.

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## Kuulvheysoon

> Yes, silly, yet effective, often does incredibly well with this crowd.


Well, one of out of two ain't bad then, eh?  :Small Big Grin:

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## nickl_2000

> Well, one of out of two ain't bad then, eh?


 :Small Big Grin:   We shall see when we start looking over other people's entries  :Small Cool: 


My own, Monk: Way of Elasticity is listed in it's first draft form.

----------


## Crim the Cold

Reviewing *Path of the Troll-Kin* first since it is the most like my own subclass.

First impressions:

*Hulk Smash!!!*

Now on to the rest of the critique.

*Troll-Kin Growth*: Barbarians already have an advantage on strength checks while raging so the size increase just lets them grapple bigger things. Some DMs would complain about hit die healing mid-fight at such a low level but its a limited resource and can easily be used up in a single fight at low level. Seems balanced to me.

*Fleshmending*: Improvement on the first ability of the subclass that also works outside of the primary class mechanic. Nice. Since this class lives and dies by its hit dice short rest recovery of hit dice is nice. I would have tied it to proficiency bonus though for a bit more even scaling through the levels. Until I looked up the long rest mechanic for hit dice recovery following reading the ability I had always thought that characters fully recovered hit dice after a long rest. 6 levels puts it out of reach of a casual dip so I feel its balanced. Limbing rules aren't used often but for players who have DMs who do the last ability is nice and I dont feel it is overpowered. As a DM I would feel free to Worf these barbarians far more often and that is hella useful.

*Troll-Blood Draught*: Barbarian subclasses gain a level at 10 not 11. Otherwise this is in-line with other barbarian subclasses and is somewhere between Path of the Beast and Ancestral Guardian in terms of power. Seems like a good fit.

*Overgrowth*: Prevents over-healing being wasteful. Improves party efficiency. Maybe should have an upper limit but I like the idea of a cleric dropping Heal on the Barb and the bad guy being like "Such a waste. You're only prolonging the inevit..." as the barb cuts him off with an epic beat down. *Puny bad guy.*

----------


## nickl_2000

Alright, it's review time!

*Spoiler: Primal Path- Path of the Troll-kin*
Show



*Troll-Kin Growth* - There is a lot of great flavor here and a nice concept.  It would be prohibitively expensive to wear armor, but as you said the barbarian has unarmored defense that can cover this ability.  I also really like how you did the healing aspect of trolls here and keeping it sane.  It is very well done.

I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of unarmed strike available.  Either a Smash attack if you want to lean into Hulk or a claw attack.

*Fleshmending* - This one seems a little powerful.  Basically unless you take fire/acid damage or someone hits you extremely hard you cannot die and you wake back up after one round.  I would prefer to see auto-stabilization only and not regenerate to 1 HP when stabilized.

*Troll-Blood Draught* - I have the same problem here as with Fleshmending, and it's the auto regenerate to 1 HP when stable.

*Overgrowth* - This one the other hand, seems a little week.  The extra HP to temp HP is good, but it still requires a bonus action to get that and uses up a HD.  The bonus in damage to use them up is nice, but by level 14 an extra 14 damage on one hit isn't all that much.  I might look at temp hp x 2.  However, you should also look at only being allowed to do this with temp HP gained through this feature.  A Troll-kin barbarian and a Twilight Cleric would be a killer, killer combination.

A few small balance issues, but overall this is a really cool and fun class.  I love the flavor with it and the feel of it.  A couple small tweaks and you should be great!




*Spoiler: Monastic Tradition: Way of the Hin Fist*
Show



I have a soft spot for monks and a soft spot for halflings, so this is right up my alley!

*Underfoot Combat* - Wow, there is a lot going on here.  You get an effective +2 AC nearly all time time since a +2 AC is amazing.  A reaction that has no cost to make an attack target someone else if they miss you (when you already have +2 to your AC).  The reaction needs to have a Ki cost to it or a limiter to it to balance out appropriately.  Also, the half-cover seems like it might break things.

*Blur of Motion* - Okay, so now at level 5 you can attack 3 times, get a dodge bonus action so that off turn you can get +2 AC and disadvantage on anyone attacking you (effectively +7 AC).  This is going to make you near unhittable.  At level 5 with point buy that makes your effective AC 24 with spending 1 Ki per round.  Then you use your reaction when they miss you to hit someone else instead.

*The Harder They Fall* - I assume this is a normal shove so that it replaces 1 attack?

*Heightened Awareness* - So basically you see everything, all the time.  The cost is to low or the duration is to high for all that you are giving.  Make it one minute and then it will be an in combat choice to decide if it's better to do damage or do this.  That reduces the effectiveness significantly.

*Underfoot Combat Mastery* - This capstone is to much as well.  You are making a very high AC even higher and adding onto the reaction ability that still needs a Ki amount to limit it.  As for the Crit range, this doesn't bother me all that much.


You have a large amount of amazing flavor here and some really cool and fun things going on.  However, the power is just to high and needs to be toned down throughout this subclass.






*Spoiler: Tree of Life Sorcerous Origin*
Show



*Wild Growth* - I feel like the double ASI is pretty abusable and just feels off to me, although I am not entirely sure why.  I'm going to have to mentally build someone characters with this class to see if I can find a way to break it.  This subclass immediately screams for Shillelagh, BB/GFB, and Mage Armor starting at level one.  You spend the extra bonus points from ASIs you will have 20 Cha, 18 Dex, and 18 Con with a dex half-feat at level 8. 

I think I found the build that this breaks things completely.  A Sorciden is powerful to begin with, but now you don't need a dip into Warlock to attack with Charisma.  However, you can boost your Con and your Str to use full plate and have massive attacks and HP.  Then you reduce damage from there and you are an unstoppable killing machine

*Feral Growth* - I believe that this is at the point of breaking bounded accuracy completely.  Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but now I can boost my stats by +4 for the cost of 4 SPs and a bonus action, allowing me to get over 20.  The damage reduction alone is extremely powerful and would be enough for this level.

*Titanic Growth* - And now you can't die very easily either.

So, this class has a good feel and fits a need that is missing for sorcerers.  However, it needs to be majorly toned down in power to be usable at a table.




*Spoiler: Bardic College: College of the Celebrity*
Show



You forgot to mention the levels in the subclass features.

*Im Sure That Youve Heard of Me* - I like this, I never really liked the friends cantrip because it makes people hate you.  This is a good ability since it is limited but still makes it more useful.

*Travelling Incognito* - This probably should be regained with a long rest.  Since, you get it for an hour and can use it prof mod times per short rest, I'm pretty sure you can always be under it.

*Larger than Life* - So, charms cause damage.  But a lot of charm spells end when they are harmed by you.  You just need to define how that works with this.

----------


## Crim the Cold

Thank for the review nickl_2000.

Wild Growth: I thought that the fire vulnerability would offset the power increase from the extra stat points but you're right. Having stats that high at level 8 from a standard point array is a bit too much. Maybe if it was toned down to 1 extra point of increase and no breaking the 20 point limit from ASIs? 

Feral Growth: You read that right, sorta. If a level 6 ToL sorcerer with no other class levels spends 3 SP(proficiency bonus 3) they can get +3 Str, Dex, and Con that can make their stats exceed 20 for 1 minute along with extra attack. A level 6 sorcerer can do this 2 times before he has to burn spells for sorcery points to keep it going. Not to mention all of the other things he has to spend sorcery points on including the resistance power from level 1. Two fights worth of supernatural, sorcerous physical prowess before they need to burn spells or take a long rest doesnt seem game breaking to me. If the players is doing a sorcadin they are going to want to save those spells for smites. They are left with a choice. More physical prowess or more smites. The choice gets easier as they gain levels and yes a sorcadin that goes with this subclass can save on a warlock dip but even then a sorcadin that goes nova with this is going to burn through resources fast. 

At character level 17 they could dump 6 SP into this for +6, a total of a +3 modifier which can be gained from a magic weapon. Maybe a hard limit on the number of times per day would be a good idea or have the feature make weapons held in your hands magical for overcoming resistance and immunities to non-magical damage but override their current magical effect if it has one preventing the stacking of this feature and +X magical weapons. As it is the feature is already fairly self limiting. For non-multiclass sorcerers there may be times when casting spells would be a better hammer for their current set of nails.

Titanic Growth: Maybe instead of a straight point increase doubling it on the death avoidance ability? That way you can power through dying at most 5 times before the cost is too high to be paid considering the upper limit on sorcery points. For maxing out the physical boost I figured exhaustion plus the fact that at most you can burn 76 SP worth of spells at 18 or 89 SP worth at 20 would be a good enough limiting factor.

----------


## Kuulvheysoon

> Alright, it's review time!
> 
> *Spoiler: Bardic College: College of the Celebrity*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> You forgot to mention the levels in the subclass features.
> 
> ...


...I will add the levels. Huh, I'm kinda in shock that I missed that. Makes sense, given how fast I tossed it together. :Small Red Face:  I'll toss that in immediately.

I remember waffling between LR/SR for Travelling Incognito until I eventually just flipped a coin. I've got zero issues pulling it back to LR.

Larger Than Life specifies that the creature only takes damage if it *succeeds* on the saving throw. So they either end up charmed OR they take damage. There shouldn't be any overlap.

Thanks for the feedback on my silly little (sub)class.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> *Troll-Kin Growth*: Barbarians already have an advantage on strength checks while raging so the size increase just lets them grapple bigger things.


 It also increases the amount of space they occupy on the battlefield. Your threatened area goes from 9sq feet to 16sq feet (or from 25sq feet to to 36 sq feet if using a reach weapon. And your increased size means huge creatures can't simply step over you like they can for medium creatures (though small creatures can pass through your space, I think that tradeoff favors the troll.)




> Barbarian subclasses gain a level at 10 not 11.


Oops! Change made, thanks.




> I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of unarmed strike available.  Either a Smash attack if you want to lean into Hulk or a claw attack.


I went back and forth on this. Mostly I decided against it so as to not step on the beast's toes too much, but I suppose a simple 1d8 fist weapon with none of the bells and whistles they get with their special toys shouldn't create too much envy. Considering this change.




> *Fleshmending* - This one seems a little powerful.  Basically unless you take fire/acid damage or someone hits you extremely hard you cannot die and you wake back up after one round.  I would prefer to see auto-stabilization only and not regenerate to 1 HP when stabilized.


I changed this to advantage on death saves and the ability to keep trying for a nat 20 (with advantage) even while stable. That should mean they will self-stabilize much faster and more reliably than others and will self-awaken well before the 1d4 hours it takes other stable creatures, but won't automatically just stand up just 12 seconds after they had a sword run through them.




> *Troll-Blood Draught* - I have the same problem here as with Fleshmending, and it's the auto regenerate to 1 HP when stable.


 Should be fixed now via the fleshmending change.




> *Overgrowth* - This one the other hand, seems a little week.  The extra HP to temp HP is good, but it still requires a bonus action to get that and uses up a HD.  The bonus in damage to use them up is nice, but by level 14 an extra 14 damage on one hit isn't all that much. I might look at temp hp x 2.  However, you should also look at only being allowed to do this with temp HP gained through this feature.  A Troll-kin barbarian and a Twilight Cleric would be a killer, killer combination.


 I'm considering these issues as well.

----------


## Ilerien

> *Underfoot Combat* - Wow, there is a lot going on here.  You get an effective +2 AC nearly all time time since a +2 AC is amazing.  A reaction that has no cost to make an attack target someone else if they miss you (when you already have +2 to your AC).  The reaction needs to have a Ki cost to it or a limiter to it to balance out appropriately.  Also, the half-cover seems like it might break things.


Ki cost to this reaction is an excellent idea!
What things half-cover may break (besides built-in +2 AC being powerful)?
The thing is, one isn't going to be in underfoot combat mode all the time: if this monk is sharing the space with their ally, they're going to pass on the opportunity to use this reaction, and enemies are prone to getting killed by your allies (or by yourself).



> *Blur of Motion* - Okay, so now at level 5 you can attack 3 times, get a dodge bonus action so that off turn you can get +2 AC and disadvantage on anyone attacking you (effectively +7 AC).  This is going to make you near unhittable.  At level 5 with point buy that makes your effective AC 24 with spending 1 Ki per round.  Then you use your reaction when they miss you to hit someone else instead.


This is a choice between "spend 1 ki, attack 4 times", "spend 1 ki, attack 3 times and get +5 AC", "attack 2 times". The second option is going to be better than the first almost all the time, but ki is still a limited resource, so might be better to go with option 3 and spend ki on something else?



> *The Harder They Fall* - I assume this is a normal shove so that it replaces 1 attack?


Yes. It would've been clarified explicitly otherwise.



> *Heightened Awareness* - So basically you see everything, all the time.  The cost is to low or the duration is to high for all that you are giving.  Make it one minute and then it will be an in combat choice to decide if it's better to do damage or do this.  That reduces the effectiveness significantly.


Actually, it was 1 minute in the original draft, and then I thought it might be worth it to make it more exploration-friendly feature.



> *Underfoot Combat Mastery* - This capstone is to much as well.  You are making a very high AC even higher and adding onto the reaction ability that still needs a Ki amount to limit it.  As for the Crit range, this doesn't bother me all that much.


Crit range is added here to boost damage output a little which isn't going to be much better than baseline monk can dish out. Again, ki cost to this reaction is something I'll implement right away.
Not sure what I'm going to do with cover: move half-cover to level 6 and get rid of 3/4 cover? Leave half-cover at level 3 and get rid of 3/4 cover? The capstone feels weak without that cover improvement.



> You have a large amount of amazing flavor here and some really cool and fun things going on.  However, the power is just to high and needs to be toned down throughout this subclass.


Thank you for the review!  :Small Smile:  You outlined several significant design flaws.
I've made some adjustments and juggled features around: moved The Harder They Fall to 3rd level, Heightened Awareness to 6th level and Blur of Motion to 11th level. :) 3/4 cover is in place for now, I'll think more thoroughly what to do with it.

----------


## Oerlaf

I decided to enter the contest with the Artificer subclass which specializes in firearms: Gunman. That's not a Strength domain of yore, but I did use some old materials for a canvas.

----------


## Crim the Cold

> Crit range is added here to boost damage output a little which isn't going to be much better than baseline monk can dish out. Again, ki cost to this reaction is something I'll implement right away.


Not a full review, but I wanted to reply to this specifically. If you wanted some old school flavor back in 3.0 and 3.5's heyday the Hin Fist order crafted Gloves of the Hin Fist which did sonic damage. Sonic was changed to thunder in 5e(for reasons I will never understand but for some reason people will zealously defend the choice). Instead of an expanded crit range, maybe have Hin Fist monks be able to spend a ki point to be able to add 1 martial arts die of thunder damage to their first successful attack of each round as well as adding 1 martial arts die of thunder damage on a crit for 1 minute. Expand the ability at 17 to 2 martial arts dice each.


Edit: Updated Tree of Life with a power reduction, extra ASI has been reduced to 1 point, the Feral Growth sorcery point feature is no longer stackable with magic weapons so as to keep bounded accuracy from being broken, and the late game stave off death feature has had its cost changed so that it has a limit of 5 uses before it is impossible to have enough sorcery points to use it. The uncapped version of Feral Growth at level 18 remains unchanged largely because there are so many other ways to break the game at that stage that ability score shenanigans seem rather mundane. Also added some more flavor.

----------


## Ilerien

> Not a full review, but I wanted to reply to this specifically. If you wanted some old school flavor back in 3.0 and 3.5's heyday the Hin Fist order crafted Gloves of the Hin Fist which did sonic damage. Sonic was changed to thunder in 5e(for reasons I will never understand but for some reason people will zealously defend the choice). Instead of an expanded crit range, maybe have Hin Fist monks be able to spend a ki point to be able to add 1 martial arts die of thunder damage to their first successful attack of each round as well as adding 1 martial arts die of thunder damage on a crit for 1 minute. Expand the ability at 17 to 2 martial arts dice each.


This is a viable alternative, but, flavor-wise, I have a feeling special monk gloves that enhance their wearer unarmed strikes with bonus damage were created by Bioware in Neverwinter Nights (the first game was and somehow is still great, will all the tools to create one's own modules), so poor 3e-based monks could have weapon special abilities on their unarmed strikes. I was unable find any references to Gloves of the Hin Fist in tabletop content (my collection of PDFs has nothing about them), so either there is indeed none or I'm bad at googling.

----------


## Crim the Cold

You're right. I checked some references and it is a Bioware addition to the lore. One that seems to have been adopted by the forgotten realms fandom at large if it is being referenced on wiki sites. Link here.

----------


## Ilerien

> You're right. I checked some references and it is a Bioware addition to the lore. One that seems to have been adopted by the forgotten realms fandom at large if it is being referenced on wiki sites. Link here.


FR wiki was indeed the first online resource I checked. As a lore purist, I generally don't take any info presented there at face value and mostly use it to find out what source material contains original lore. The only source for this particular piece of lore was NWN, and I'm reluctant to introduce a flavor element based solely on Greg Zeschuk's view on how to give a 3e monk a bit more damage.  :Small Wink: 
Thanks for the idea!  :Smile:  I'll certainly put it into "to consider for the next draft" folder.

----------


## Snowben Gaming

Alright, the College of Reputation is finished.

I'll get started on some reviews now although they might take a while as I need to get started on my entry for the base class contest, but I'll get them done ASAP.

----------


## Crim the Cold

Updated Tree of Life sorcerous origin to version 3 and added a changelog. I felt on review that the level 6 feature was still too powerful even with the previous changes and so made it mutually exclusive with concentration spells. Like I said in the changelog my only regret is not being to use fly with it, but it makes sense that a Tree of Life subclass would be rooted  :Small Big Grin:  to the ground.

----------


## Edea

...oof, this theme's got me stumped.  I'm not even sure where to start.

My initial idea was a wizard school that specialized in expanding spell areas, but I immediately discarded it since that'd be...very difficult to balance.

----------


## nickl_2000

> ...oof, this theme's got me stumped.  I'm not even sure where to start.
> 
> My initial idea was a wizard school that specialized in expanding spell areas, but I immediately discarded it since that'd be...very difficult to balance.


I actually had the same thought as a sorcerer and trashed it for the exact same reason.

How about an Artificer who uses mutagens to enhance themselves temporarily?

----------


## Crim the Cold

> I actually had the same thought as a sorcerer and trashed it for the exact same reason.
> 
> How about an Artificer who uses mutagens to enhance themselves temporarily?


I was thinking of a golem crafter who backpack rides them like MasterBlaster. "Who run Barter Town?"

----------


## Arkanist

Well, I made my first submission to this contest: the martial archetype of the Hildolfr, focused on wielding oversized weapons!

----------


## Damon_Tor

As discussed with some others, I've gone ahead and given the troll-kin a 1d8 unarmed strike while hulked out (with none of the added frills, this shouldn't upset beast-barbarians _too_ much), and I've restricted his Overgrowth bonus damage to tHP gained from the ability itself (though he can still gain these tHP from outside sources of excess healing, so he still combos nicely with healers as intended). I didn't improve the efficiency of the excess HP -> tHP ratio, mostly because the synergy between healing spells still exists and is potentially _phenomenal_, and because there are published ways to increase the efficacy of your hit dice (a periapt of wound closure is probably the most obvious item on a troll-kin's wish list, but there are a few other game elements which interact with hit dice in fun ways).

----------


## sengmeng

It's not a good fit, but I finally had an idea I wanted to do for this contest: The Way of the MAN monastic tradition. Bigger is Better is a pretty MANly ideal, right? Anyway, it's based off of Mulan. PEACHes welcome.

----------


## Kuulvheysoon

What happens if they wear +1 leather armor?

I'm aware of the Meme Power of this entry, but giving male monks Intimidation proficiency and female monks disguise kit proficiency doesn't sit well with me.

----------


## sengmeng

> What happens if they wear +1 leather armor?
> 
> I'm aware of the Meme Power of this entry, but giving male monks Intimidation proficiency and female monks disguise kit proficiency doesn't sit well with me.


It's ambiguous whether magic armor bonuses would apply, and I think I'll actually keep it that way; DM's call.

Would it be better if there was no reference  to gender and a choice of Intimidation or disguise kit?

----------


## Ilerien

> Would it be better if there was no reference  to gender and a choice of Intimidation or disguise kit?


Oh noes, you opened a portal to the native plane of SJWs. Gods have mercy on us all.  :Small Big Grin: 
Probably would be better to offer a choice indeed.

----------


## Kuulvheysoon

> Oh noes, you opened a portal to the native plane of SJWs. Gods have mercy on us all. 
> Probably would be better to offer a choice indeed.


Why not both? Honestly, *Strength and Discipline* isn't so powerful that giving you access to both Intimidation and disguise kit would be OP. The disguise kit in particular is basically a ribbon, and you're not going to have a very good Intimidation score regardless (as monks tend to dump Charisma with all of their other stat demands).

----------


## nickl_2000

More reviews!

*Spoiler: Bardic College: College of Reputation*
Show




*Hear my name and despair!* - I like this use of inspiration, it's something a little more unique and different.  The only thing I would consider is to have the ability to re-make the save at a certain point.  You could potentially use 1 bonus action and take someone completely out of a fight.

*Preceding reputation* - Good, very good.  However, I don't think it is overpowered.  I'm comfortable with having both of these at level 3.

*Reputation Manifest* - I believe the casting of it "at will" means that you can cast it without any action requirement?  I think the language there needs to be cleaned up.  When something is cast at will, I expect that you can cast it whenever you want as many times as you want.  However, you limit the casting of this to Cha Mod/ Long Rest.  For clarities sake, it should be Cha Mod times per long rest, not at will.  Although, to be honest, this isn't all the great of an ability.  I don't necessary think it is bad or wrong, but by level 14 an extra 1d4 damage per round isn't all that much.  Even if you are using AoE spells.  Also, I think it is a missed opportunity not calling this ability "larger than life."

I don't have a lot to say about changes needed with this subclass.  The abilities are good and worth taking, it gives good flavor and fits into the bard standards.  It's a solid subclass that I would enjoy playing and would allow at my table.




*Spoiler: Circle of Irons Might*
Show



Circle Spells
I don't like seeing shield here.  It's one of the best spells in the game and I don't think it really has a place in a Druid subclass, especially one who doesn't care about metal armor (i.e. one that is very well armored).  That being said, I don't know what you would replace it with really...  So, I don't know...

*Vast Lord* - I see now, looks like you 100 feet of movement seems almost excessive, especially since it can be treated like a mount.  That makes you more mobile than the monk.  I may look into the monk movement and make it equal to that personally.

*Riches Beyond Measure* - This is weird as a capstone.  Sure you get the small bonus to your animated armor, but the main ability you are giving is completely fluff.  If a DM doesn't want to run an economy for selling the material, you completely lose out on this.  I might do something that helps you scout instead that would help the character.  Maybe you can identify all metal within a certain distance (i.e. you can figure out if there are swords in the next room, or if there is a metal bedpost in a secret room on the other side of this wall.





*Spoiler: Artificer Specialist: Gunman*
Show



*Hip Shooting* - Small technicality here.  You don't actually provoke an AoO when using a ranged weapon.  So, it would be clearer and easier to say that "When you are holding a firearm, creatures provoke AoOs as if it were a melee weapon."

*Double Blast* - I am completely confused by this.  Are you making two attacks or one?  You have "as an action" listed twice.  I assume the intent here is that you use your attack action and fire two 1-handed firearms.  By doing that you are dealing extra damage.

Personally, I don't see the reasoning for requiring two weapons here.  Just make it so that it uses a special bullet, or twice the powder or something like there where when it hits it does more damage.  5d6 damage per round isn't really all that much when you have Rogues doing 8d6 + dex + weapon damage or Fighters doing 3 weapon attacks adding in dex/str or Paladins attacking 2 times at weapon damage + str/dex + 1d8.  If you are worried about it make it so that you can only do it X times per short rest.




*Spoiler: THE HILDOLFR*
Show



*Riesehander Style* - This gives some interesting interactions.
1) Dueling fighting style with a great axe.
2) two weapon fighting with the Dual Wielder feat to dual wield mauls with GWM.
3) Wield both a Great Weapon with GWM feat and have a shield.
4) PAM and Reach with a shield (drools at the thought).

I'm not saying that this is necessarily bad, but it makes for an amazing 3 level dip for a lot of classes (barbarian and Paladin) and creates some interactions that the creators never intended.  I would have to see how it would play to know for sure though.

*Castle Crasher* - This is a little boring, and not something that will come up excessively often.  However, you are also getting another Kenning at this level, so it seems fine to me.  Especially since Fighter level 7 tends to be a little more boring in general.

*Gigantesque* - And this just made my PAM combo even better.  No one gets within 15 feet of me, ever!

*Blood-Fueled Vigor* - I really like this.  A great way to get more uses out of the main subclass ability with a significant cost.

*Titan's Strike* - Powerful, fitting, and seems fine at level 18.  You cast Earthquake and have to forgo 3 or 4 attacks to do so.  I would mention that the center of the spell is where you hit the weapon into the ground (the earthquake spell has a 500 ft range to avoid being caught in it as the caster).

*Kennings*
For pretty much all of these, I would look at reducing the damage.  You are already a massive tank for damage and you have a great AC (1d12 damage + str and a shield).  You don't need that much more

Oak-Uprooting Whirlwind - This can be made completely pointless with the dual wielder feat and the 2 weapon fighting style.

Steel-Serpent Hide - the 18th level ability is a little odd in my head canon.  How does having a rapier stick out of my chest make it so others attack me with disadvantage?





*Spoiler: Frog Sage*
Show



Why can't you do a tongue attack on someone you are biting?  Seems like it would make as much sense as anything else.  Also, if you are grappling someone with your tongue at a distance, you shouldn't be able to make a bite attack as you would bite your own tongue off :)

This subclass feel familiar, is it a modification of something you have previously written?




*Spoiler: Way of the MAN*
Show



Cute references to Mulan.

+10 more speed on a monk is getting pretty crazy.  I may reduce it to +5.  That being said, for a monk it may not really matter in the end.

*Mysterious as the Dark Side of the Moon* - I would drop this completely though.  If a monk is wearing armor they don't get martial arts at all and it would really hurt to take that away.  Also, an armor wearing monk just doesn't seem right to me.

*Strength and Discipline* - In this you boost the monk damage further when you get to a high level.  I don't think this really is necessary since you are giving another ability at level 6.  I would drop the damage change completely.  1d12 for a monk is enough.

*Did They Send me Daughters, When I Asked For Sons?* - More at level 6?  You are giving away a lot of abilities for a class that gives a lot in the base class.  Also, the idea that you get a proficiency only if you are female is problematic.  It's flavorful to Mulan, but If you are keeping this, just give it to everyone.

*I'll Make a MAN Out of You* - Where is the Ki cost of this?

So, overall here you are giving to much.  You are giving lots and lots of abilities that are permanent and have no Ki cost.  So, not only are you giving some powerful boons, but you also get to use your base class Ki abilities more often.  Trim this down and give some things some cost to help it out.






*Spoiler: The Thug-Rogue archetype*
Show



This is very fitting to the theme and simple with still giving more options while playing.  This rogue is going to be a champion grappler, as you were going for.  Honestly, I don't see any significant problems here or things that you need to fix.  The level 17 ability gave me some pause in doing 3d6 more damage, but at level 17 doing and extra 10/11 more damage in a round really isn't all the great.  It may be worth re-looking at the capstone to make it something more exciting or active than just doing more damage.  However, that would take away some of the simplicity of the subclass.

Truth is I have no big complaints and wouldn't be upset seeing anyone playing this at a table I'm at.






Got through the rest of them.  Sorry for the delay and sorry if I was more brief than usual.  I wanted everyone to have a review and was running out of time this month.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> More reviews!
> ]
> 
> *Spoiler: Circle of Irons Might*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Circle Spells
> ...


As always, thank you so much for your feedback!

I was considering Shield of Faith instead, but I feel 10rds of +2 AC is better than 1 of +5. Notably most of my groups combats last longer than 5 rounds, so it might be perception. 

I think the 100 feet number is only available at high tier play and requires a resource expenditure, but I honestly think it was a placeholder. The mount rules felt like the quickest way to say you can have the armor walk for you.

Ill have another look at the capstone but I dont think it distinguishes raw vs worked metals, so you should be able to tell if there are say, moving gold coins behind the door (ie guys with pocket change), etc. 

Thanks again!

----------


## Oerlaf

Thank you for your feedback!




> Hip Shooting - Small technicality here. You don't actually provoke an AoO when using a ranged weapon. So, it would be clearer and easier to say that "When you are holding a firearm, creatures provoke AoOs as if it were a melee weapon."


I reworded this feature to sound it in a way the third bullet of the War Caster feat does. 




> Double Blast - I am completely confused by this. Are you making two attacks or one? You have "as an action" listed twice. I assume the intent here is that you use your attack action and fire two 1-handed firearms. By doing that you are dealing extra damage.
> 
> Personally, I don't see the reasoning for requiring two weapons here. Just make it so that it uses a special bullet, or twice the powder or something like there where when it hits it does more damage. 5d6 damage per round isn't really all that much when you have Rogues doing 8d6 + dex + weapon damage or Fighters doing 3 weapon attacks adding in dex/str or Paladins attacking 2 times at weapon damage + str/dex + 1d8. If you are worried about it make it so that you can only do it X times per short rest.


Yes, the intent here is to use the attack action and fire two 1-handed firearms. The requirement of two weapons is there for the fluff and cinematic vision of firing from two hands. I changed the bonuses to the fixed 6d6 damage, but I'd rather leave the two-weapon fighting for fluff reasons.
In addition, the firearms in the entry require an *action* to load, so there is no balance issue in this regard.

----------


## Arkanist

> *Spoiler: THE HILDOLFR*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Riesehander Style* - This gives some interesting interactions.
> 1) Dueling fighting style with a great axe.
> 2) two weapon fighting with the Dual Wielder feat to dual wield mauls with GWM.
> 3) Wield both a Great Weapon with GWM feat and have a shield.
> ...


I much appreciate the feedback. With some feedback from a friend who commented on my class, I'm going to be reducing the character's tankiness to a small degree (removing the inherent Toughness bonus from Gigantesque), and I'm clarifying the phrasing a bit on Titan's Strike to ensure that while it has drawbacks, you don't just open a trench underneath yourself like some sort of Looney Toons sketch. 

Since feats are optional nowadays, I feel that there's less to worry about RE: a class feature being made redundant by a feat. It provides the option to be a good dual wielder without the feat; if you're using the feat then you should just not take both of the options because they do the same thing. I'll add a note clarifying things though.

RE: multiclassing, since that's an optional rule as well I feel that it's just up to the DM whether they want to open that higher level of power to the character or not. 

RE: Steel-Serpent strike, I had a rationale for the disadvantage thing when I was writing it, but I've since forgotten it. I'll see if I can think of an alternative level 18 bonus. 

RE: damage, I keyed the class' damage off the Arcane Archer subclass. While I'm open to reducing it, I feel bringing it down to the d4 level would be a mistake because the d4 _feels_ small. And if there's one thing I don't want the class to feel, it's small. So I'll mull over if there's a good way to balance that slightly.

Thank you very much for your feedback!

----------


## nickl_2000

> RE: damage, I keyed the class' damage off the Arcane Archer subclass. While I'm open to reducing it, I feel bringing it down to the d4 level would be a mistake because the d4 _feels_ small. And if there's one thing I don't want the class to feel, it's small. So I'll mull over if there's a good way to balance that slightly.
> 
> Thank you very much for your feedback!


I'm not against keying on the Arcane Archer damage.  However, the Arcane Archer gets 2 shots per short rest.  You get twice your proficiency bonus per short rest.  So, at level 3 when you get the subclass you get twice as many uses compared to the Arcane Archer and it just grows from there.  So, it's not quite an equal comparison.  Now, if you want it to feel higher while still reducing the damage, make the bonus damage 1d8 and 2d8 instead of 2d6 and 4d6.  1d8 average is 4.5 and 2d8 average is 9.  2d6 average is 7 and 4d6 average is 14.  This is a significant overall reduction in average damage, but doesn't have the wimpy feel of small dice.  Even 1d10 and 2d10 is 5.5 and 11 average damage, still a reduction from the 2d6/4d6.

As for the feats/multiclassing.  I will agree that they are optional rules, but if a DM is allowing homebrew they are probably also allowing Feats and Multiclassing.  As I said in the review it wasn't something bad, just something to watch out for in playtesting to see if it becomes a problem.

----------


## mr_stibbons

> More reviews!
> 
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: The Thug-Rogue archetype*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, thanks for the review.  This is my first attempt at one of these contests, and I'm glad you mostly liked it.  I cleaned up the formatting now that I have some free time, and replaced the capstone with one that's a bit more unique, and should make the class a bit less dependant on enlarge effects from the wizard or magic items by the later levels.

By the way, what does PEACH mean?  Something like please review constructively?

----------


## sengmeng

I made some changes to the MAN. Probably for the worse, but whatevs.

----------


## Kuulvheysoon

> Hey, thanks for the review.  This is my first attempt at one of these contests, and I'm glad you mostly liked it.  I cleaned up the formatting now that I have some free time, and replaced the capstone with one that's a bit more unique, and should make the class a bit less dependant on enlarge effects from the wizard or magic items by the later levels.
> 
> By the way, what does PEACH mean?  Something like please review constructively?


IIRC, it's shorthand for Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly.

----------


## nickl_2000

> IIRC, it's shorthand for Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly.


Yup, you got it.  Basically, I want some to look at it and be nice but still tell me what's wrong with it

----------


## Arkanist

Great job to everyone who participated in the "Bigger is Better" competition! I really enjoy all the entries, and can't wait for the chance to vote on them -- it's going to be hard to pick three favorites!

----------


## nickl_2000

Lots of entries and only 4 votes.  Get out there and vote people, you can't make your voice known without voting!



(wow, that first image I used was gigantic)

----------


## Arkanist

> Lots of entries and only 4 votes.  Get out there and vote people, you can't make your voice known without voting!
> 
> 
> 
> (wow, that first image I used was gigantic)


Do you have to have participated in the thread to vote? Before I started participating, I never knew whether it was allowed for me to vote or not if I didn't.

----------


## MoleMage

> Do you have to have participated in the thread to vote? Before I started participating, I never knew whether it was allowed for me to vote or not if I didn't.


You can vote even if you didn't participate. In fact it is encouraged.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> You can vote even if you didn't participate. In fact it is encouraged.


Molemage, is there a way to write an announcement in the main page of the homebrew section, to urge people to vote in the various contests?

----------


## nickl_2000

> You can vote even if you didn't participate. In fact it is encouraged.


Also, just because some of us give reasons why we voted doesn't mean that everyone has to.  There is nothing wrong with just putting your top 3 in there with no explaination.

----------


## MoleMage

> Molemage, is there a way to write an announcement in the main page of the homebrew section, to urge people to vote in the various contests?


In the absence of an official thread for the purposes of announcements there isn't much I can do; my options are limited to making a new thread, which I already do for the voting itself.

----------


## nickl_2000

Let me note that if

Hold the Line wins for the new contest (described as Stationary subclasses).  I will be extremely disappointed if there isn't at least one subclass that focuses on writing strongly worded letter to their enemies.

----------


## sengmeng

> Let me note that if
> 
> Hold the Line wins for the new contest (described as Stationary subclasses).  I will be extremely disappointed if there isn't at least one subclass that focuses on writing strongly worded letter to their enemies.


Don't look at me, I'm probably doing Path of the Crimson Diaper as a semi-affectionate parody of the cinematic version of the Spartans.

----------


## nickl_2000

> Don't look at me, I'm probably doing Path of the Crimson Diaper as a semi-affectionate parody of the cinematic version of the Spartans.


 :Small Big Grin: 

THIS! IS! THE! PATH! OF! THE! CRIMSON! diaper?!?

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> In the absence of an official thread for the purposes of announcements there isn't much I can do; my options are limited to making a new thread, which I already do for the voting itself.


I was actually thinking of something like the "Announcement: Rules of Posting (Please Read!)" thread on the top of the section, but I don't know who can do something like that.

----------


## nickl_2000

> I was actually thinking of something like the "Announcement: Rules of Posting (Please Read!)" thread on the top of the section, but I don't know who can do something like that.


That's a moderator only post.  We would have to ask a mod nicely to do it.

----------


## Crim the Cold

Might have missed the vote. Work has me running myself ragged. Seems like I missed the mark with my entry. Oh well. I still like it.

----------


## Arkanist

> Might have missed the vote. Work has me running myself ragged. Seems like I missed the mark with my entry. Oh well. I still like it.


For what it's worth, I did like your entry - there were just a lot of strong entries. You definitely should be proud of what you made, it's got a very strong concept!

----------


## Edea

> Might have missed the vote. Work has me running myself ragged. Seems like I missed the mark with my entry. Oh well. I still like it.


At least you made an entry!  This particular prompt just left me idea-less.

----------


## nickl_2000

> At least you made an entry!  This particular prompt just left me idea-less.


Fell free to ask for inspiration at any point you like.  I don't know about others, but as soon as I get a theme I brainstorm ideas and usually have 5-6 I reject as not being interesting to create for me.

----------


## MoleMage

> Alright I'm still running behind but I have tallied the votes.
> 
> In 3rd place, we have the smallest subclass in this contest of giants, it's Ilerien's *Way of the Hin Fist*. The halflings took home 7 points today.
> 
> In 2nd place, it's not the hulk but it's close! Damon_Tor's *Path of the Troll-kin* earned a total of 14 points as much as first place, but since Damon_Tor didn't cast a vote, the tiebreaker goes to...
> 
> In 1st place, sometimes crime isn't clever or suave but it's still crime. mr_stibbons's *Thug* roguish archetype earned 14 points as well, and won the tiebreaker to take 1st!
> 
> 
> ...


Working on the new thread now. Gonna be traveling soon so this might be my last post for a bit.

EDIT: New thread! https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...0#post25174750

----------


## sengmeng

> Don't look at me, I'm probably doing Path of the Crimson Diaper as a semi-affectionate parody of the cinematic version of the Spartans.


Yep that's what I did lol

If anyone is having trouble with ideas, I came up with a concept for almost every class before settling on this one.

Bard: college of propaganda (basically the rallying speech aspect of bardery, "we're not going anywhere")

Cleric: protection domain

Druid: circle of stone

Fighter: Hoplite aka Historically Accurate Spartans

Monk: way of wushu (based around stances, with animal based options)

Paladin: Oath of protection

Ranger/rogue: sniper. Probably bonuses of some kind to ranged attacks made while prone and/or concealed and not moving

Wizard/sorcerer: geomancer

Warlock: spirit of nationalism (similar to the bard college of propaganda, basically Uncle Sam is your patron and he says you will not be moved)

----------


## Kuulvheysoon

I think that I'll wait a bit, see what other classes are picked and try to expand our options with a new class. I like me a challenge.

----------


## Oerlaf

I am going to try an Earth domain cleric this time. That is quite obvious, because "earth is steady and stable".

----------


## nickl_2000

Congratulation mr_stibbons on the thug entry and win.

And for inspiration for everyone for the next contest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htgr3pvBr-I

----------


## Edea

I think I have a couple of ideas this time, but I find myself repeatedly visiting the idea of pinning down others rather than being pinned down yourself, which is troublesome; mobility gets more and more important as the level range of the game increases, so finding a way to make being rooted down worth it without making something busted is going to be interesting...

----------


## Kuulvheysoon

The wizardly Sorceror. I like it, nickl_2000. Classy.

----------


## nickl_2000

First draft on the Ley Line Sorcerer, a sorcerer based on tapping into the ley lines of the ground and manipulating it.  Feel free to take a look at it and review, but be nice with odd wordings and typos (I haven't proof-read much yet).





> The wizardly Sorceror. I like it, nickl_2000. Classy.


Thanks, that is exactly what I was going for.  With giving rituals and the ability to regain power like the wizard I wanted to give a feel of a sorcerer who channels energy from the outside as well as within.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

For some time now I've been fantasizing about mechanics that load up during combat, unlocking new active or passive abilities with each turn that the player manages to meet a certain requirement. I would love trying to make a version of it that increases as the character stays in place, perhaps combining it with something like this:

_You deploy several bulky metal plates and wooden panels all around you, to form a portable shelter. Your walking speed drop to 5 feet, and you loose any kind of other movement speed that you may have. Also, you automatically fail any Dexterity check or saving throw you perform, but any attack against you have disadvantage and any damage you may suffer from a spell or an effect that require a Dexterity saving throw is automatically halved. Also creatures of your choice treat the space within 5 feet of you as rough terrain. The effects last until you deactivate this gadget, using 1 action._

which is taken from a gadget from an old project of mine. In addition, i would add the ability to conjure "infrastructures" such as barriers, fortifications, shelters, bridges, but also stonehenge-style obelisks and monoliths to amplify magical power.




> First draft on the Ley Line Sorcerer, a sorcerer based on tapping into the ley lines of the ground and manipulating it.  Feel free to take a look at it and review, but be nice with odd wordings and typos (I haven't proof-read much yet).


Nice catch, I was thinking of using ley lines as a flavour base too!

----------


## nickl_2000

> Nice catch, I was thinking of using ley lines as a flavour base too!


Feel free to do so, I'm sure you will have a very different take on it than I did.  At the end, we could even combine them together to make it even better!

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> Feel free to do so, I'm sure you will have a very different take on it than I did.  At the end, we could even combine them together to make it even better!


I would love that, but at the moment my ideas are quite incomplete, I hope to have the time to write them in the next few days, also to get an idea of their effectiveness.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> First draft on the Ley Line Sorcerer, a sorcerer based on tapping into the ley lines of the ground and manipulating it.  Feel free to take a look at it and review, but be nice with odd wordings and typos (I haven't proof-read much yet).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, that is exactly what I was going for.  With giving rituals and the ability to regain power like the wizard I wanted to give a feel of a sorcerer who channels energy from the outside as well as within.


When I saw ley line sorcerer I had to actually go up and check the poster name bc I though I might have posted it and forgotten. Right down to the Ritual casting at 1st and ley line transport later Id had such a similar idea. 

Thats fine though, I can finally create my competitive eating monk.

----------


## nickl_2000

> When I saw ley line sorcerer I had to actually go up and check the poster name bc I though I might have posted it and forgotten. Right down to the Ritual casting at 1st and ley line transport later Id had such a similar idea. 
> 
> Thats fine though, I can finally create my competitive eating monk.


That's crazy that they were that similar.  I guess I'm glad I got mine posted early :)

----------


## nickl_2000

Looks like there are a few ready for reviews, so I will hop on them before I get overwhelmed.

*Spoiler: Path of the Crimson Diaper*
Show



*Glistening Abs* - Appropriate, effective, and makes perfect sense to me.  This does happen to be a pet peeve of mine in building, I don't like it when you have to invest in a stat for 2 levels and then it becomes way less important.  Sure you aren't taking away medium armor prof or anything, but the optimizer in me shudders at having to start my build at level 1 to use this ability.

*Phallic Symbolism* - This sucker, on the other hand is pretty powerful.  You are giving a 1 handed reach weapon with 1d10 damage as a one handed weapon.  This makes it vastly superior to anything else out there, especially when you add on PAM.  I think it should be okay overall, but be open to changing it in playtesting if/when it gets to powerful.

It isn't wrong, but it is a little unusual that you didn't add a rage feature to a barbarian class.  That is typical, but not wrong.

*Slow-mo Action* - Love it, cinematic, effective, and not broken really at all.

*Bro Code* - The extra damage is negligible at level 10.  So, it's fun, but not a big deal (although my initial reaction was that it was to much).  I am more concerned about the advantage at will as a reaction.  I like the idea, it makes sense, but I would like to see it have limited uses.  It still gives a good flavor, and it fun and helpful but ends up being less overwhelming.

*Break Ranks* - This needs a top limit of the bonus, you could really game the system on this with enlarge and summons to do a lot of extra damage.  I would think 4d4 would be a decent maximum.


This subclass has great flavor, it has great visuals and in the end it's actually pretty simple while still giving more options of what you can do.  As I said before it's a little bit of an odd choice that there is nothing to do with raging on a barbarian subclass, but whatever :)






*Spoiler: Cleric: Earth Domain*
Show



*Domain Spells* - Command is a bit of an odd choice for this, I might consider catapult as a level 1 spell.  It's pretty fitting.  For second level instead of hold person you could consider Earthbind as well.  However, that does strip some power from the subclass to do that.

*Bonus Proficiency* - Nothing wrong with this, but I feel like you should also get the Mold Earth Cantrip.  It's utility and fun and so very, very fitting.

*Tremorsense* - I like this, it's very fitting, it makes sense, and I like how it grows in size over the levels to make it good as a dip, but not broken.

*Mountain Stance* - Can you voluntarily end this early?  Also, I think this is a little weak to be honest.  I wouldn't mind seeing something added onto that, and extra bonus for not moving rather than others just not being able to move you.  Maybe a bonus to AC, maybe an abillty to throw a rock at someone as a bonus action, maybe if they try and move you and they fail they take damage, maybe difficult terrain around you for a certain radius, just a few ideas.

*Geyser* - This feels weird.  You are an earth domain cleric and you are doing damage with hot water?  I get that water is under the earth, but it still feels odd to me.  The damage also feels high to me, cool looking, effective, but high.  I could be convinced of this otherwise though since it is a level 17 ability.  Where did you get the numbers from?

A cool take on the Earth Cleric, I like Cleric and I like this subclass :)

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> Looks like there are a few ready for reviews, so I will hop on them before I get overwhelmed. 
> 
> *Spoiler: Cleric: Earth Domain*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Domain Spells* - Command is a bit of an odd choice for this, I might consider catapult as a level 1 spell.  It's pretty fitting.  For second level instead of hold person you could consider Earthbind as well.  However, that does strip some power from the subclass to do that.
> 
> ...


Wow, I haven't read the earth domain yet but from what I can see here it have a lot of things in common with what I'm writing! XD

----------


## Oerlaf

> Looks like there are a few ready for reviews, so I will hop on them before I get overwhelmed.
> *Spoiler: Cleric: Earth Domain*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Domain Spells* - Command is a bit of an odd choice for this, I might consider catapult as a level 1 spell.  It's pretty fitting.  For second level instead of hold person you could consider Earthbind as well.  However, that does strip some power from the subclass to do that.
> 
> *Bonus Proficiency* - Nothing wrong with this, but I feel like you should also get the Mold Earth Cantrip.  It's utility and fun and so very, very fitting.
> ...


Thank you for the review! 

Domain Spells. I thought about those spells but I justified it that it can easily be roleplayed within the earth theme. For example, a _hold person_ spell might manifest as barely visible stones that hold the target fast. Options for the _command_ spell can also be justified accordingly. I usually try to have as little non-PHB spells as possible, but it's hard to stick only to them.

*Bonus Proficiency.* Mold earth is definitely a good idea, but I think that balancewise it's either a Bonus Cantrip (as in the Light domain cleric) or Bonus Proficiency, but Earth has definitely a lot to do with tanking.

*Mountain Stance.* I intended this as a defensive ability of some sort that you can't end voluntarily. It does seem weak on paper, but there are some things to consider here. It requires a pure ability check to move the character, so legendary resistance does not apply here. And the stance protects from magical effects also. And for the purpose of the stance, being knocked prone also constitutes as being moved as you fall. 

*Geyser.* Yes, it is subterrannean source of water. *Meteor swarm* (20d6 bludgeoning + 20d6 fire) is a 9th-level spell that is basically fire and earth. This ability is a 17th-level magical ability that cannot be counterspelled, so it should be weaker in damage.

----------


## sengmeng

> Looks like there are a few ready for reviews, so I will hop on them before I get overwhelmed.
> 
> *Spoiler: Path of the Crimson Diaper*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Glistening Abs* - Appropriate, effective, and makes perfect sense to me.  This does happen to be a pet peeve of mine in building, I don't like it when you have to invest in a stat for 2 levels and then it becomes way less important.  Sure you aren't taking away medium armor prof or anything, but the optimizer in me shudders at having to start my build at level 1 to use this ability.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback! The goal of course was to make the most  ahistorical Spartans, so I feel like I did that. I did have other things I thought about giving then, but I already crammed 5 features into 4 levels of subclass. I disagree with your evaluation of Break Ranks needing a limit, because taking full advantage of the possible 12 adjacent allies requires two separate spells (and two allies actions) or a lot of hired mercenaries. It's just so much setup to pull off that I feel the difficulty of doing it scales just fine with the damage.

----------


## nickl_2000

> Thank you for the review! 
> 
> Domain Spells. I thought about those spells but I justified it that it can easily be roleplayed within the earth theme. For example, a _hold person_ spell might manifest as barely visible stones that hold the target fast. Options for the _command_ spell can also be justified accordingly. I usually try to have as little non-PHB spells as possible, but it's hard to stick only to them.
> 
> *Bonus Proficiency.* Mold earth is definitely a good idea, but I think that balancewise it's either a Bonus Cantrip (as in the Light domain cleric) or Bonus Proficiency, but Earth has definitely a lot to do with tanking.
> 
> *Mountain Stance.* I intended this as a defensive ability of some sort that you can't end voluntarily. It does seem weak on paper, but there are some things to consider here. It requires a pure ability check to move the character, so legendary resistance does not apply here. And the stance protects from magical effects also. And for the purpose of the stance, being knocked prone also constitutes as being moved as you fall. 
> 
> *Geyser.* Yes, it is subterrannean source of water. *Meteor swarm* (20d6 bludgeoning + 20d6 fire) is a 9th-level spell that is basically fire and earth. This ability is a 17th-level magical ability that cannot be counterspelled, so it should be weaker in damage.


For the mold earth, it would be a little bit unusual, but you are giving a passive ability in the tremorsense (and something that won't kick in right away, you won't be running into invisible creatures early on very often).  You subclass, your call, but I think it wouldn't be overpowered and you could get away with it if you wanted to.

I still think that just stopping movement isn't all that powerful on it's own, especially since you can't end it.  Maybe something else smaller, like you get advantage on saves vs losing concentration while you are in there?  Sure, there are other ways to get that, but it is still a bonus nd fills it out a little bit more and makes you feel better about it.

Agreed, it should be weaker than meteor swarm.  The problem that I have is the comparison of a 17th level ability to a 9th level spell as opposed to a 17th level ability vs other 17th level Cleric abilities.  When looking at the other 17th level cleric abilities, the only damage dealing ones are ones that add 1dx or 2dx once per turn.  Compared to this, that is basicailly an additional 8th level spell.  With that in mind it still feel like it is doing to much damage to me.  If it did 10d6, 10d6 damage I would personally feel more comfortable.

That being said with all this, take it with a grain of salt.  It's not my subclass, it's not my table.  Feel free to ignore my thoughts and go with what you want, my feeling won't be hurt.





> Thanks for the feedback! The goal of course was to make the most  ahistorical Spartans, so I feel like I did that. I did have other things I thought about giving then, but I already crammed 5 features into 4 levels of subclass. I disagree with your evaluation of Break Ranks needing a limit, because taking full advantage of the possible 12 adjacent allies requires two separate spells (and two allies actions) or a lot of hired mercenaries. It's just so much setup to pull off that I feel the difficulty of doing it scales just fine with the damage.


You did make an accurate, an a little bit tongue in cheek, depiction of Spartans.  That's fine, as I said above, not my subclass just my opinion.  You are likely right that it's not that big of a deal with the max damage.



and new entry, new review
*Spoiler: Ranger Archetype: The Bunker Buster*
Show



Catapult would be extremely appropriate as a level 1 spell for this subclass if you wanted something a little different.

*Ballistic Plating* - The +2 to defense is huge here.  Considering that you are an archer, you probably aren't moving all that much anyways, so there is a decent chance that you are going to be getting the +2 all the time.  Add onto that as possible cover that you are getting and you could easily get a 22 AC without a shield all the time (or 22 AC with a shield when you are in combat).  I think the flat +2 is a little much with bounded accuracy and a +1 would be better (or a +1 that turns to +2 when you get to a higher level).

*Hole Puncher* - My only complaint here is that it duplicates part of sharpshooter, something that this subclass if going to get.  I don't know if there is a way around it, since this feels like one of the core abilities of the subclass though.

*In the Trenches* - The prone ability here fits, the resistance doesn't feel right to me.  I just don't see in my mind how being in a trench can make it so you take less damage when you are hit.  Also, this ability guarantees that you will be prone in combat more often than not.  So, without any magical items, you are running a 22 AC.  If you go sword and board, run up to someone and go prone, you are now running 24 AC without any magical items (25 with the defensive fighting style).  That makes you one heck of a tank, especially if you also get resistance to damage from all B/P/S at the same time.

----------


## gloryblaze

> and new entry, new review
> *Spoiler: Ranger Archetype: The Bunker Buster*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Catapult would be extremely appropriate as a level 1 spell for this subclass if you wanted something a little different.
> 
> *Ballistic Plating* - The +2 to defense is huge here.  Considering that you are an archer, you probably aren't moving all that much anyways, so there is a decent chance that you are going to be getting the +2 all the time.  Add onto that as possible cover that you are getting and you could easily get a 22 AC without a shield all the time (or 22 AC with a shield when you are in combat).  I think the flat +2 is a little much with bounded accuracy and a +1 would be better (or a +1 that turns to +2 when you get to a higher level).
> ...


Thanks for the feedback! I definitely considered Catapult, but Snare fits so well with the idea of setting traps and fortifications that I didn't want to leave it out. I also wanted the spell list to be relatively low power/low impact since many of the subclass features are pretty strong.

I think you're right about the +2 being a bit high, +1 seems a better breakpoint. The idea was to sort of replicate the AC bonus of a shield even when using a longbow, but the ability to semi-reliably create half cover for yourself later probably means its worth bumping down.

Re: Hole Puncher, I was definitely considering just leaving it out all together, but I decided against it for 2 reasons: 1) I want the subclass to have that ability for flavor purposes even in a featless game, since feats are an optional rule, and 2) the other level 7 ability is pretty situational since it requires that you have a minute of access to the site of a future battle (so it typically can't be used when infiltrating enemy-controlled territory, like most dungeons).

The flavor idea behind In the Trenches is that by hunkering down, you can brace yourself better for hits. Sort of like how you take less knockback in many fightning games if you get hit when crouching. I'm also not super worried about abuse with SnB, since the subclass does nothing to improve your mobility or reduce the movement cost of standing up from prone, so a) you'll be pretty easy to kite and b) even if you can keep up with a fleeing enemy, you're never going to benefit from BPS resistance or your Ballistic plating bonus since you'll be on the move.

 Also, your damage will be pretty low if you go with a SnB build, since your level 11 feature only provides a damage boost to ranged attacks (and even then, your damage will still be lower than other rangers, since the boost is situational and it even turns itself off midway through your Attack action if they fail their first save!) The goal is to create a tenacious and durable but immobile ambush predator who can outlast foes, so there's very little you can do to "draw aggro" to yourself and tank for a party. You're unlikely to go down yourself, but you lack the battlefield control tools or exceptional damage output to force enemies to focus on you before they just gank the party wizard.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

Worldeater Monk is done. Wildly different from what I expected when I began but I like it a lot better. Original intent was going to be ~Galactus/Unicron but this is Kirby/Miroku(Inuyasha). I have a race called the Aez, PC oozes, clap this on a pink one and you have a Kirby. 

I had initially intended a grappling focused build but I had forgotten how awkward the monk MADness makes them. Ive gotten around it in the past with an Iron Body feature that lets them replace Dex w/ Str for AC, but the more I thought about it here, the less value it had.  
*Spoiler: fluff stuff*
Show


In the fluff there are references to the Infinite Sun of Orbos. Thats a homebrew world at the end of the multiverse. Orbos is a planet sized Beholder whose eye stalks are moons and a massive ocean is its central eye which perpetually stairs at the supermassive black hole consuming the last remnants of existence. They call the Black Hole the Infinite sun bc the quasars and Accretion Disc twist making it look like a bit like an Infinity symbol in the sky and they say it never sets bc the Beholder has to stare at it lest the excrucian forces it conjures (monsters to facilitate unexisting all things) renew their assault. 

Any 20 level campaign on Orbos is expected to end with the PCs blowing up the black hole sun to reboot the multiverse. 


I hope you enjoy this small piece.

----------


## Kuulvheysoon

And so is the Indomitable warlock patron. I expected a lot more anchoring effects when I came up with it, but as I wrote it it lent itself better to serving as the hub of the battle, drawing enemies into it and anchoring others as necessary. Toss in a good dose of party support and you have a subclass.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> Worldeater Monk is done. Wildly different from what I expected when I began but I like it a lot better. Original intent was going to be ~Galactus/Unicron but this is Kirby/Miroku(Inuyasha). I have a race called the Aez, PC oozes, clap this on a pink one and you have a Kirby. 
> 
> I had initially intended a grappling focused build but I had forgotten how awkward the monk MADness makes them. Ive gotten around it in the past with an Iron Body feature that lets them replace Dex w/ Str for AC, but the more I thought about it here, the less value it had.  
> *Spoiler: fluff stuff*
> Show
> 
> 
> In the fluff there are references to the Infinite Sun of Orbos. Thats a homebrew world at the end of the multiverse. Orbos is a planet sized Beholder whose eye stalks are moons and a massive ocean is its central eye which perpetually stairs at the supermassive black hole consuming the last remnants of existence. They call the Black Hole the Infinite sun bc the quasars and Accretion Disc twist making it look like a bit like an Infinity symbol in the sky and they say it never sets bc the Beholder has to stare at it lest the excrucian forces it conjures (monsters to facilitate unexisting all things) renew their assault. 
> 
> ...


Blurg, updated capstone. Limited Spell eating is less time consuming than a potential 17 additional attacks.

----------


## Ninja_Prawn

Been a while since I stopped by, eh? Well, I saw the opportunity for a pun and couldn't resist.  :Small Amused: 

By the way, have there been any spell-brewing contests lately? If not, I was thinking I might run one.

----------


## Twelvetrees

> By the way, have there been any spell-brewing contests lately? If not, I was thinking I might run one.


There have not, but I'd love to see one again.


And good to see you, Ninja_Prawn!  :Small Smile:

----------


## Ilerien

As promised, 5e take on Dwarven Defender is delivered. I decided to take an unpopular fighting style and run with it.
The fact I'm too busy to present an entry earlier than the very deadline is worrying, though. :(

----------


## MoleMage

Time to vote!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...6#post25211976

I guess I forgot to update the first post of this thread between contests so I went ahead and did that too, including the representation table up through contest XXV.

----------


## nickl_2000

Got in there and voted, sorry about the short voting message and lack of reviews on later entries.  Life has been completely nuts for the past 2 weeks, and I ran out of time.

If anyone really wants me to respond and PEACH let me know and I'll get to it when life normalizes.

----------


## Snowben Gaming

Hello there!

I'm back. Sorry for just vanishing without saying anything about 2 contests ago. Life got a tad hectic.
But I'm here to stay now, starting with the next contest... Which is beginning like, today lol (talk about coincidental timing)!

----------


## nickl_2000

> Hello there!
> 
> I'm back. Sorry for just vanishing without saying anything about 2 contests ago. Life got a tad hectic.
> But I'm here to stay now, starting with the next contest... Which is beginning like, today lol (talk about coincidental timing)!


I get it 100% life gets in the way, things happen, it gets difficult.  Glad you are able to make it back though.

----------


## Snowben Gaming

> I get it 100% life gets in the way, things happen, it gets difficult.  Glad you are able to make it back though.


Glad to be back. Life has calmed down for the most part now, so I'm good to go.

----------


## Ninja_Prawn

Congrats nickl, that was a well-deserved victory. It's not often someone racks up 20 points!

----------


## MoleMage

> Time to call the voting, let's see what we've got!
> 
> In 3rd place with 9 points, it's gloryblaze with the *Bunker Buster* Ranger Archetype. Make cover work for you, but not your enemies!
> 
> In 2nd place with 11 points, it's Ninja_Prawn returning with the Wizard's *School of Fish*! It's a different kind of line but it's still being held.
> 
> And our winner with a commanding _20_ points, it's nickl_2000 with the *Ley Line Sorcerer*. Magic flows through the earth and through you.
> 
> Our theme winner was *Warriors of Old*, finally claiming that first place slot after several contests as runner up. *So You Don't Have To* came in second and will return in the next voting pool.
> ...


Done with the last, in with the old! Our new thread is upon us!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...arriors-of-Old

----------


## Snowben Gaming

Warriors of old...

Definitely gonna do something based on the Harbinger of Doom epic destiny, just not sure what class would best fit.

----------


## nickl_2000

> Congrats nickl, that was a well-deserved victory. It's not often someone racks up 20 points!


Thanks! Sometimes, things just come together very well and they land with people.

----------


## nickl_2000

I decided to go WAY back in time and go a little silly.  So, I proudly give you.

Ranger Subclass: Elf

----------


## Twelvetrees

Way of the Firestarter is up. And here are some reviews of the other entries!

*Spoiler: Elf*
Show


*Elven Magic*



> You have trained in Elven magic since the year of your birth a long time ago


I'll admit, this dry humor got me good.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but choosing Ranger known spells at level 3 is only choosing one spell, isn't it? That seems rather paltry. Is this meant to give you access to the Sorcerer spell list in addition to the Ranger list? If so, you may want to reword it to be something like "Starting at level 3..." instead.

*Additional Elf Spells Known*
Have a pretty table.
*Ranger Level*
*Spell*

3rd
_Charm Person_

5th
_See Invisibility_

9th
_Haste_

13th
_Confusion_

17th
_Polymorph_



Polymorph is the only spell here whose presence I don't understand. The others make sense for an Elf, but that one stands out. It also sticks out because it's a 4th level spell and the additional Ranger spells at 17th level are 5th level spells. Polymorph is quite useful, but I'm pretty sure if an Elf wanted it they would have picked it up somewhere in the four levels prior.

*Elven Eyes*
Heh, there it is, the reference to secret doors. This is good fun.

*Elven Camouflage*
I like this, I really do, but it makes it possible to have a Ranger who is better at sneaking around than a Thief rogue with Supreme Sneak. Outclassing a rogue at what they're best known for feels bad.

Maybe leave it at just the Cloak?

*Sword and Sorcery*
A basic damage and spells known bump. Works for me.

*Elven Majesty*
The trap bit is interesting and the rest is functional, but I went in expecting something more from a feature named Elven Majesty.


*Spoiler: College of Laments*
Show


*Requiem*
I get where most of this feature comes from, but the presence of _chill touch_ is confusing me. How does it fit in with the identity of this college?

This feature is fun, as a whole.

*Dirges*
There's a sizable portion of the bard's spell list that has concentration spells. This feature clashes with using those spells, so I'm leery already, without even having read the dirges.

The short range makes these difficult to use as well. Bards tend to be squishy.

*Dirge of Apathy*
Hold on, for one Bardic Inspiration die, you get all these effects and there's no save? That feels strong.

*Dirge of Awakening*
I want to call this busted, but it entirely depends on what foes a DM throws at your party. No, wait, definitely busted. It breaks the action economy and is on the same level of power as a moon druid Wild Shape.

At the very least, I think the CR needs to be lowered. Creatures retaining spells seems like it could get out of hand quickly, so removing that would help as well.

*Dirge of Bolstering*
This is nigh-useless unless you have allied undead creatures. I haven't seen a way for this subclass to make that happen yet, so it feels like this dirge has an unstated prerequisite of knowing _animate dead_. If you want to make it easier for players to use this, giving a College of Laments bard the ability to cast _animate dead_ would help. If you have allied undead, this is probably fine.

*Dirge of Decay*
This is the equivalent of _spirit guardians_ except with a larger area and no slowing effect. The save is generally easier to make, but I don't think it matters when this doesn't even take a spell slot to use. Something needs to change. Either a higher cost to use or a lesser effect.

*Dirge of Grief*
This is complicated and needlessly so. Having the grief be dependent on the _confusion_ roll causes confusing and inconsistent results. Decoupling them from one another would help. If I may, my suggestion would be to have the grief automatically affect a confused creature. I might take away the disadvantage on the saving throw, in that case.

*Dirge of Mortality*
This feels strong in a similar way to Dirge of Apathy. It also works really well for anyone rolling a pile of dice, like rogues with their Sneak Attack, and causes their damage to spike. I'm not a huge fan of the extremes in damage this is liable to cause. Would you be interested in making this change low rolls into average rolls instead? Something like changing 1s and 2s into 3s? That still feels strong, but also more reliable.

*Dirge of Sorrow*
This is broken.

Affecting saves is good. Cutting all damage in half at low levels and stacking with resistance is ridiculously good and doubles the longevity of the party. This makes Cutting Words look bad in comparison.

Exchanging this the latter half of this feature for the ability to simultaneously cast _bane_ would be closer to being reasonable, but it still might be too strong.
*Secrets of Necromancy*
This is fine. Making one of the spells automatically be _animate dead_ and giving the player the option to choose one other would help make Dirge of Bolstering make more sense.

*Herald of Despair*
The last half of this feature makes sense. The first half sets my teeth on edge, especially when this combines so well with the last half. I can easily envision a scenario in which a College of Laments bard gives Bardic Inspiration to everyone in their party and they get to add it to initiative and all of their foes have disadvantage on initiative. And then the bard regains half the Bardic Inspiration they spent with no action by telling a party member terrible news.

It is thematically fitting. But it feels like power creep. Limiting it to only affect a few foes would help dramatically. Switching it out for something else would work as well.

----------


## Ilerien

> *Requiem*
> I get where most of this feature comes from, but the presence of _chill touch_ is confusing me. How does it fit in with the identity of this college?
> 
> This feature is fun, as a whole.


Actually, I created this subclass several months ago for fun (and for a one-shot for 6th level characters). I don't remember what was I thinking at the time. Probably something along the lines of "let's give a squishy bard a decent damaging cantrip with a range of touch coz it will have to stay close to the front lines to use dirges anyway".
I think toll the dead would be far more thematically fitting indeed. Or maybe just scrap the cantrip? I felt I should give something more with this feature than just "advantage" on inspiration dice when applied to undead.




> *Dirges*
> There's a sizable portion of the bard's spell list that has concentration spells. This feature clashes with using those spells, so I'm leery already, without even having read the dirges.
> 
> The short range makes these difficult to use as well. Bards tend to be squishy.


This is exactly the reason: I envisioned dirges as comparatively strong powers that require massive investment of resources: both inspiration dice and the concentration slot. Considering magical secrets, even necomancy-oriented, I feel like this bard can fill their spell list with mostly non-concentration spells and be a useful spellcaster still.



> *Dirge of Apathy*
> Hold on, for one Bardic Inspiration die, you get all these effects and there's no save? That feels strong.


Yep. Limited by range and concentration, but still strong.
Would it actually help if I remove the speed reduction or the "no reactions" effect?




> *Dirge of Awakening*
> I want to call this busted, but it entirely depends on what foes a DM throws at your party. No, wait, definitely busted. It breaks the action economy and is on the same level of power as a moon druid Wild Shape.
> 
> At the very least, I think the CR needs to be lowered. Creatures retaining spells seems like it could get out of hand quickly, so removing that would help as well.


Breaking action economy here, definitely. Not that conjuring 8 pixies (or wolves, for that matter) breaks it, right?
Moon druid's Wild Shape doesn't require concentration.
Removing the ability to cast spells feels right, though. Limiting the CR too, probably to half the bard's level?




> *Dirge of Bolstering*
> This is nigh-useless unless you have allied undead creatures. I haven't seen a way for this subclass to make that happen yet, so it feels like this dirge has an unstated prerequisite of knowing _animate dead_. If you want to make it easier for players to use this, giving a College of Laments bard the ability to cast _animate dead_ would help. If you have allied undead, this is probably fine.


Adding animate dead is a great idea! Dunno why I haven't thought of it myself: I was definitely rereading necromancer wizard's features while writing the subclass.




> *Dirge of Decay*
> This is the equivalent of _spirit guardians_ except with a larger area and no slowing effect. The save is generally easier to make, but I don't think it matters when this doesn't even take a spell slot to use. Something needs to change. Either a higher cost to use or a lesser effect.


The question is if an inspiration die isn't worth more than a 3rd-level spell slot. For this bard? I'd think it might be.




> *Dirge of Grief*
> This is complicated and needlessly so. Having the grief be dependent on the _confusion_ roll causes confusing and inconsistent results. Decoupling them from one another would help. If I may, my suggestion would be to have the grief automatically affect a confused creature. I might take away the disadvantage on the saving throw, in that case.


A confusion roll is just bound to cause some confusion! Kidding, you have a good point here.




> *Dirge of Mortality*
> This feels strong in a similar way to Dirge of Apathy. It also works really well for anyone rolling a pile of dice, like rogues with their Sneak Attack, and causes their damage to spike. I'm not a huge fan of the extremes in damage this is liable to cause. Would you be interested in making this change low rolls into average rolls instead? Something like changing 1s and 2s into 3s? That still feels strong, but also more reliable.


I actually thought of this alternative myself and decided against it because it makes some other classes' options redundant or almost redundant: think Great Weapon Fighting or Empowered Spell. Maybe increase, for the lack of better term, critical threat by one step? Champion fighters would be grumpy, but this effect is probably less common, and they'll still benefit from it. Without single damage rolls shooting into stratosphere.




> *Dirge of Sorrow*
> This is broken.
> 
> Affecting saves is good. Cutting all damage in half at low levels and stacking with resistance is ridiculously good and doubles the longevity of the party. This makes Cutting Words look bad in comparison.
> 
> Exchanging this the latter half of this feature for the ability to simultaneously cast _bane_ would be closer to being reasonable, but it still might be too strong.


"The target of the attack is treated as having resistance to all damage types for the purpose of this attack"? Wouldn't stack with resistance this way.
But still, you have a good point, I'll try to brainstorm how to debuff attacks/damage just slightly in 5e-sque way without forcing the DM to make a bane roll for every attack in range.




> *Secrets of Necromancy*
> This is fine. Making one of the spells automatically be _animate dead_ and giving the player the option to choose one other would help make Dirge of Bolstering make more sense.


Definitely! :Small Smile: 




> *Herald of Despair*
> The last half of this feature makes sense. The first half sets my teeth on edge, especially when this combines so well with the last half. I can easily envision a scenario in which a College of Laments bard gives Bardic Inspiration to everyone in their party and they get to add it to initiative and all of their foes have disadvantage on initiative. And then the bard regains half the Bardic Inspiration they spent with no action by telling a party member terrible news.
> 
> It is thematically fitting. But it feels like power creep. Limiting it to only affect a few foes would help dramatically. Switching it out for something else would work as well.


If the bard wants to blow all of his inspiration dice on initiative checks for the party, sure, why not?
Would generating just one die from delivering bad news help?
Actually, I though of the last clause as a stimulus to roleplay that grim (and maybe sadistic) bard (and to take expertise in deception :D) that tells some Isolde expy about black sails, or as a way to make taunting an enemy mechanically relevant. The idea is the news should we world-shattering for a person they're being delivered to, and hoarding news party members would consider that grave seems all but impossible. And if you follow exactly this scenario for a final battle of a campaign, it's just plain cool, don't you think?

Thank you for the detailed review! :) Several ideas could be implemented right away, but, well, too much work at hand IRL. I'll probably get to writing a revised version with your comments in mind in a day or two.

----------


## nickl_2000

Thanks for taking a look and comenting!





> *Elven Magic*
> I'll admit, this dry humor got me good.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong here, but choosing Ranger known spells at level 3 is only choosing one spell, isn't it? That seems rather paltry. Is this meant to give you access to the Sorcerer spell list in addition to the Ranger list? If so, you may want to reword it to be something like "Starting at level 3..." instead.


The intent was that you can choose from the Ranger list or the Sorcerer list for all your ranger spells for the rest of your career.  I fixed the wording to be more clear




> *Additional Elf Spells Known*
> Have a pretty table.


Done




> Polymorph is the only spell here whose presence I don't understand. The others make sense for an Elf, but that one stands out. It also sticks out because it's a 4th level spell and the additional Ranger spells at 17th level are 5th level spells. Polymorph is quite useful, but I'm pretty sure if an Elf wanted it they would have picked it up somewhere in the four levels prior.


So, all the spells I chose existed in 1st edition as spells a "Magic User" could cast.  For some reason my brain confused things and thought Polymorph was a 5th level spell.  I've replaced it with Conjure Elemental, which is more elfy and 5th level as well.




> *Elven Eyes*
> Heh, there it is, the reference to secret doors. This is good fun.


You can't have an old edition Elf without this!




> *Elven Camouflage*
> I like this, I really do, but it makes it possible to have a Ranger who is better at sneaking around than a Thief rogue with Supreme Sneak. Outclassing a rogue at what they're best known for feels bad.
> 
> Maybe leave it at just the Cloak?


It is similar to the Supreme Sneak ability and a few levels sooner.  However,  see this as pretty equivalent to the Rogue's ability rather than outclassing it.  Especially since the Rogue has the ability to use expertise in Stealth whereas the Ranger only does if you are using Tasha's rules.  Would you feel better about this if I removed the attunement section?  That does make a significant difference overall.

Plus this is in the OD&D rules "Elves have the ability of moving silently and are nearly invisible in their gray-green cloaks."  I figured that this pretty much perfectly fits the Elven Cloak and Elven Boots.  Also, I personally don't see a point in only giving the cloak, the boots are fun but really don't do much compared to the cloak.




> *Sword and Sorcery*
> A basic damage and spells known bump. Works for me.


I felt like giving more spells and more damage is about as good as you can for Sword and Sorcery  :Small Smile: 




> *Elven Majesty*
> The trap bit is interesting and the rest is functional, but I went in expecting something more from a feature named Elven Majesty.


I wasn't completely satisfied with this myself since it is so passive.  The trap part I pulled from Legolas being able to walk on top of the snow, but I ran out of source material from OD&D to apply (especially at a higher level).  It would be a good idea to drop the rest completely and do something more fey related with it.

So, I leaned into Tolkien Elves and took it to an extreme (with limits).  Let me know what you think please!

----------


## Twelvetrees

*Spoiler: Elf replies*
Show




> Thanks for taking a look and comenting!


 :Small Smile: 




> It is similar to the Supreme Sneak ability and a few levels sooner.  However,  see this as pretty equivalent to the Rogue's ability rather than outclassing it.  Especially since the Rogue has the ability to use expertise in Stealth whereas the Ranger only does if you are using Tasha's rules.  Would you feel better about this if I removed the attunement section?  That does make a significant difference overall.
> 
> Plus this is in the OD&D rules "Elves have the ability of moving silently and are nearly invisible in their gray-green cloaks."  I figured that this pretty much perfectly fits the Elven Cloak and Elven Boots.  Also, I personally don't see a point in only giving the cloak, the boots are fun but really don't do much compared to the cloak.


I think there's an attainable middle ground. What if you made wearing both require only one attunement slot?




> I wasn't completely satisfied with this myself since it is so passive.  The trap part I pulled from Legolas being able to walk on top of the snow, but I ran out of source material from OD&D to apply (especially at a higher level).  It would be a good idea to drop the rest completely and do something more fey related with it.
> 
> So, I leaned into Tolkien Elves and took it to an extreme (with limits).  Let me know what you think please!





> *Fey Transformation*
> All Elves are distant relatives of their Fey cousins, but there are those that learn embrace that heritage.  At level 15, as an action, you may transform yourself and embrace your fey heritage.  For the next 10 minutes, you gain the following features
> You glow with and ethereal light providing 10 ft bright light and 10 ft dim lightYou gain advantage on all Charisma checksYou gain advantage on all Dexterity saving throwsYou deal additional damage, doing a total of 2d6 damage on every weapon hitYou may walk over liquids per the water walking spell and can over traps without triggering them.
> 
> Once you use this ability, you may not use it again until you complete a long rest.


Very minor: I think you want "an" instead of "and" in the first bullet point. In addition, the last bullet point probably ought to have a "walk" in between "can" and "over"

The fourth bullet point could be reworded as "The additional damage from your Sword and Sorcery feature increases to 2d6"

The mix of combat and noncombat abilities is a nice touch!

But where's the bit that allows an Elf to walk atop snow?  :Small Tongue: 


*Spoiler: College of Laments replies*
Show




> Actually, I created this subclass several months ago for fun (and for a one-shot for 6th level characters). I don't remember what was I thinking at the time. Probably something along the lines of "let's give a squishy bard a decent damaging cantrip with a range of touch coz it will have to stay close to the front lines to use dirges anyway".


Oohhh, the classic confusion on the range of _chill touch_ would do it. That makes more sense now. Despite the name, _chill touch_ has a range of 120 feet, which trips everyone up.




> I think toll the dead would be far more thematically fitting indeed. Or maybe just scrap the cantrip? I felt I should give something more with this feature than just "advantage" on inspiration dice when applied to undead.


_Toll the dead_ would work.

I'm a fan of the rest of the feature and I'm not sure it needs to change. It's mostly a ribbon feature and a fun one at that.




> This is exactly the reason: I envisioned dirges as comparatively strong powers that require massive investment of resources: both inspiration dice and the concentration slot. Considering magical secrets, even necomancy-oriented, I feel like this bard can fill their spell list with mostly non-concentration spells and be a useful spellcaster still.


Works for me.




> Would it actually help if I remove the speed reduction or the "no reactions" effect?


Removing the "no reactions" piece would help.




> Moon druid's Wild Shape doesn't require concentration.


Fair, but it also replaces a party member instead of adding another.  :Small Wink: 




> Removing the ability to cast spells feels right, though. Limiting the CR too, probably to half the bard's level?


I like it.




> The question is if an inspiration die isn't worth more than a 3rd-level spell slot. For this bard? I'd think it might be.


Is it worth more than a 4th or 5th-level spell slot? Remember, this scales at a similar level to _spirit guardians_.




> I actually thought of this alternative myself and decided against it because it makes some other classes' options redundant or almost redundant: think Great Weapon Fighting or Empowered Spell. Maybe increase, for the lack of better term, critical threat by one step? Champion fighters would be grumpy, but this effect is probably less common, and they'll still benefit from it. Without single damage rolls shooting into stratosphere.


That could work but you're right that it would conflict with Champion fighters.

You're unlikely to have another bard in a single party, so maybe you steal something from the College of Valor and make it so allies can add your bardic inspiration die to their damage rolls? That might be too good, but it's another idea.




> Would generating just one die from delivering bad news help?


Yes, it would.




> Actually, I though of the last clause as a stimulus to roleplay that grim (and maybe sadistic) bard (and to take expertise in deception :D) that tells some Isolde expy about black sails, or as a way to make taunting an enemy mechanically relevant. The idea is the news should we world-shattering for a person they're being delivered to, and hoarding news party members would consider that grave seems all but impossible. And if you follow exactly this scenario for a final battle of a campaign, it's just plain cool, don't you think?


I won't deny the cool factor! I may be worrying too much about this but there are a lot more ways to boost character initiative now.

The PHB had:
AlertThe bard's Bardic InspirationThe barbarian's Feral Instinct
Later books added:
The Gloom Stalker's Dread AmbusherThe Swashbuckler's Rakish AudacityWar Magic's Tactical WitThe Twilight Domain's Vigilant BlessingThe Battle Master's Ambush maneuverThe Oath of the Watcher's Aura of the Sentinel
This ability further stacks initiative heavily in the party's favor.




> Thank you for the detailed review! :)


 :Small Smile:

----------


## nickl_2000

> I think there's an attainable middle ground. What if you made wearing both require only one attunement slot?
> 
> 
> 
> Very minor: I think you want "an" instead of "and" in the first bullet point. In addition, the last bullet point probably ought to have a "walk" in between "can" and "over"
> 
> The fourth bullet point could be reworded as "The additional damage from your Sword and Sorcery feature increases to 2d6"
> 
> The mix of combat and noncombat abilities is a nice touch!
> ...


The Boots of Elvenkind don't require attunement in 5e, only the cloak.  So, I modified it to require attunement for balance.  Additionally I put in a clause to re-create those items if they are lost (I would hate for a player to lose a subclass feature if they were robbed).

Thanks for the proofing, that helps a lot.\

And I added to the Fey Transportation so the last bullet says "You may walk over liquids per the water walking spell and over traps without triggering them.  Additionally you may walk atop loose solids such as snow and sand without sinking into them."  I thought I was referencing it subtly, but it wasn't clear enough.  So subtilty can get thrown out the window! :)




I will try and get my first reviews out either today or sometime tomorrow.

----------


## Ilerien

> Oohhh, the classic confusion on the range of _chill touch_ would do it. That makes more sense now. Despite the name, _chill touch_ has a range of 120 feet, which trips everyone up.


Apparently, tripped me at the time of initial writing, and then I forgot about it.  :Small Big Grin: 


> Toll the dead would work.


 I really like _toll the dead_'s flavor being tied to that bell sound, etc. Feels about fitting for the image of that grim bearer of ill news or even a courtier responsible for composing laments.



> I'm a fan of the rest of the feature and I'm not sure it needs to change. It's mostly a ribbon feature and a fun one at that.


Quite true! Though keeping within the theme and mechanical role in the party, this bard would probably use its concentration to keep a dirge up, so major buffs and control spells are out of the picture, which means it would be reduced to just doing damage, and bards aren't that really great at it. So... give it just a bonus die to necromancy cantrips? Maybe at level 6 instead of level 3.


> Removing the "no reactions" piece would help.


I'm thinking of tying this to a saving throw. Want to use a reaction? Make a wisdom or charisma save. Or just flat-out impose disadvantage on any attacks it makes as a reaction.
Speed reduction isn't that meaningful when the creature you're debuffing is already close to you. Might be useful to prevent it from escaping, though.



> Fair, but it also replaces a party member instead of adding another.


Lots of grey areas there, but I get it indeed. :)



> Is it worth more than a 4th or 5th-level spell slot? Remember, this scales at a similar level to _spirit guardians_.


Interestingly, my initial writing contains half proficiency bonus worth of inspiration dice, and I was sure the forum version has this too. :Small Eek:  Apparently, this is not the case. And I remember the very first idea for this dirge being damage racking up over time to represent progressive decay: 1 die at the time of activation and 1 die more every round cumulatively (and it was capped at, like, 1 round per proficiency bonus). Felt like too much to keep track of, though.
I think I'll just make it one inspiration die + half bard level.


> That could work but you're right that it would conflict with Champion fighters.
> 
> You're unlikely to have another bard in a single party, so maybe you steal something from the College of Valor and make it so allies can add your bardic inspiration die to their damage rolls? That might be too good, but it's another idea.


This I like!  :Small Smile:  Strong enough to warrant concentration, not strong enough to be broken. Thanks for the awesome idea!
And even if there are two bards, well. Making the awkward rule from Dirge of Bolstering into a general one should fix it: a d20 or damage roll can't benefit from different effects that allow to use an inspiration die in some way.


> I won't deny the cool factor! I may be worrying too much about this but there are a lot more ways to boost character initiative now.
> 
> The PHB had:
> AlertThe bard's Bardic InspirationThe barbarian's Feral Instinct
> Later books added:
> The Gloom Stalker's Dread AmbusherThe Swashbuckler's Rakish AudacityWar Magic's Tactical WitThe Twilight Domain's Vigilant BlessingThe Battle Master's Ambush maneuverThe Oath of the Watcher's Aura of the Sentinel
> This ability further stacks initiative heavily in the party's favor.


And the bard's Jack of All Trades, though not that big of a buff. ;)
True, they're indeed far more common after TCE came out. Disadvantage on a raw check (without taking into account success or failure rate) is a -3.325 penalty on average. But if we actually do take them into account, advantages and disadvantages give you or take from you the most if you beat the DC on a roll of 11+, and have practically no effect at the edges of the spectrum. Since initiative in combat is essentially a big pile of opposed checks, stacking up initiative buffs on a single party member will most likely have diminishing returns.
The problem here, in my opinion, lies in the most of those effects being self/single target (with the exception of the Watchers Paladin), while this one, essentially, buffs the whole party. I think limiting the range to 30 ft should help to balance it, more or less.



Edit: carved a bit of free time. There's a new revision of College of Laments in stock now. :)

----------


## nickl_2000

*Spoiler: Wizard Arcane Tradition: White Necromancy*
Show



This is a stream of concious review, I tend to write down things as I think them so that you can get an idea of how I'm processing it.

*White Necromancy* - So, if I'm reading this right.  You have access to the spells in the spells available listing.  If you write all those spells for a level, you immediately also get access to the rest of the Cleric Spell list?  This seems really, really powerful for a Wizard to have full access to Cleric spells as well as Wizard spells. So, my hope is that there will be other weaker class skills to balance this out.

Charisma being the casting ability for spells written using this feature, is that intentional to balance it out or is that a typo?  If it's intentional, I kind of like it as a balancing mechanism to the overall power of that, Charisma does seem an odd choice rather than Wisdom though.

*Rebuke Death* - It's an interesting ability, although rather weak since it hurts you as much as it helps them and it requires that they use a resource.  That being said, I think this should be a weaker ability to balance out the spell choices from the other level 2 ability.

*Life Bond* - This feels like emergency healing for bounce purposes.  it does somewhat invalidate the Rebuke Death ability since rebuke death really isn't all that useful anymore.  As in, why would I spend an action with touch range to give someone back HPs when I can yo-yo heal them as a free action, from a distance, on each and every one of my turns.  It may be worthwhile here to have an action cost to Heal/harm, instead of a free action at the start of your turn, make it a bonus action.  That way you can only heal one person a round and rebuke death doesn't get thrown in the waste bin.

*Necromancer's Sacrifice* - I see you are using charisma modifier here again, so I'm going to guess that above was on purpose.

*Enduring Sacrifice* - I like this as the capstone, sure it doesn't give you more abilities, but it does give you the ability to do your abilities a lot more often, which is certainly something amazing.


So, abuses that I can think of for this, I don't think they are excessively bad but are worth considering.
Multiclass into Warlock at least 2 levels, since you need charisma for casting a spell abilities this isn't a bad thing to consider anyways.  Then take the Fiendish Vigor Invocation.  Those 1d4+4 temp hp regained at will can go a long ways for a character like this.  Even better if you are a Fiend where you can get more temp HP from Dark One's Blessing.







*Spoiler: Totemic Demonslayer*
Show



Small copy/paste error in Ranger Spells known, since it says Cookie Tastiness.

*Fiend Hunter* - I like this, it's favored enemy from old with some additions.  

*Summon Spell Dampening* - I think there is a bit of a wording issues.  When you say conjuration spells I assume you mean Conjure Animals and the like.  However, Conjuration is also a school of magic.  Unless you plan on blocking the entire Conjuration school of magic you should make this more clear.  My first reaction on this is that it was way to powerful, but it requires an action, only lasts a minute and can only be done once per day.  I think you are perfectly fine with this.

*Lesser Totem Tattoos*
*Ape* - Twice with melee attacks on the same round?
*Baboon* - Typo in clim speed.
*Boar* - Is it exactly that damage or that damage or less?  is that in a single hit or a round?
*Deinonychus* - Why does this need to be unarmed?  You have to hit, it takes a bonus action to activate, and they have a DC13 save.  This would be fine to be any strike.
*Allosaurus and Snake* - These two appear to be the same thing

I notice that a lot of these are focused on strength based unarmed strikes.  If that is your focus, you should at least give some bonus to unarmed strikes all the time, maybe a 1d4+str?  Or at least give the Ranger access to the Unarmed Fighting style from Tasha's.

*Greater Tattoos*
*Ankylosaurus* - This isn't much better than the Sea Turtle, I personally find that I don't fight people with magical weapons all that oftne.
*Giant Wasp* - Is this a 1 time thing, or multiple times per round.  If it's one time, it is to weak at the levels you get this.

In general with the Greater Tattoos they feel a little weak to me.  You get to use a greater tattoo 3 times per day at level 20 and they seem fine, but not epic level character power.  Just my 2 cents.







*Spoiler: Way of the Firestarter*
Show



*Fire Lash* - Can you grapple from 15 feet away?  Also, if you are grappling someone with the whip can you also attack with it?  Or can you only attack the grappled person?  

*Fear No Fire* - Dex being your caster modifier is a little bit odd here.  Any particular reason why you didn't use Wisdom as per the standard 5e monk ability?

*Firewalks* - You are flying, but you leave footprints?  This seems a little bit odd to me.  I understand the intent here, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my mind.

*Spontaneous Combustion* - Is the save vs Wisdom per standard Monks or Dex per everything else in this subclass?  Also, I would make it so that you have to see the creature as well as being within 30 feet.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Fire Lash Whip ignore fire resistance somewhere around level 6.  It's a class defining feature and I would hate to not be able to use it if someone resists fire damage.




*Spoiler: Bardic College: College of Laments*
Show



*Requiem* - I love toll the dead here over chill touch!  The undead creature rolls and picks the higest result?  I think your intent was that you roll twice on your inspiration die and choose the higher of the two, but it sounds like you are giving the undead critter advantage instead with the wording.

*Dirges* well to be blunt, your dirges are really overpowered.  You can do move damage per turn in an area than several spells that are considered the best of the game, you can boost the heck out of animated allies, you can cast a better version of confusion, you can give use cutting word on anyone with 20/30 feet without any extra action or uses of your bardic inspiration die.  Constant bane with no save and they also take more damage.  Then add onto that that you get the inspiration back one a short rest and you are a full caster who can cast non-concentration spells on someone.  A bard of this type would absolutely rule the battlefield.

*Secrets of Necromancy* - Seems fine to me, and makes perfect sense.

----------


## Ilerien

> *Requiem* - I love toll the dead here over chill touch!  The undead creature rolls and picks the higest result?  I think your intent was that you roll twice on your inspiration die and choose the higher of the two, but it sounds like you are giving the undead critter advantage instead with the wording.


Perhaps it would be more clear if I reword it to "whenever an undead creature's d20 roll benefits from or is hampered by your bardic inspiration die, the die gets rolled twice, and the highest results of the two affects the roll". Can't think of any less clumsy wording. :D



> *Dirges* well to be blunt, your dirges are really overpowered.  You can do move damage per turn in an area than several spells that are considered the best of the game, you can boost the heck out of animated allies, you can cast a better version of confusion, you can give use cutting word on anyone with 20/30 feet without any extra action or uses of your bardic inspiration die.  Constant bane with no save and they also take more damage.  Then add onto that that you get the inspiration back one a short rest and you are a full caster who can cast non-concentration spells on someone.  A bard of this type would absolutely rule the battlefield.


Area damage is just spirit guardians, more or less. Animated allies aren't that great to begin with. Burst benefit is significantly better than the one necromancers get (especially considering Requiem), but a necromancer can create and/or control more undead. I wouldn't say confusion proper is strictly worse, it affects multiple targets after all. Constant bane-like effect (I assume your mean the 3 save-debuffing dirges) has narrower application than bane itself: your friendly battlefield controller will have to use appropriate spells to take advantage. The one debuffing attack rolls? Fear immunity is pretty common.
Getting one die back on a short rest isn't free. I imagine requiring some creativity from a player at my table to benefit from this. Might be poor game design to rely on it, though. Still, too thematic a mechanic just to scrape it.
To be completely honest? I think this one needs lots of playtesting: while dirges sound overpowered on paper, there are these limitations of concentration, range and kind of each of them not being a universal solution to every problem, and this bard doesn't know all of them: 4 dirges at levels that matter the most. Maybe I should bring it down to just 2 dirges at 3rd level.
As esteemed Twelvetrees pointed out above, bards generally rely heavily on concentration spells. True, a bard can play a blaster, a healer or even a bit of secondary support or controller without concentration spells (having magical secrets in mind), but this still takes away a lot from the style bards generally excel at.

I will probably tone dirges down even more anyway. :)

Thank you for this review! I appreciate it so much when fellow homebrewers give feedback on my entries.  :Small Smile:

----------


## nickl_2000

> Perhaps it would be more clear if I reword it to "whenever an undead creature's d20 roll benefits from or is hampered by your bardic inspiration die, the die gets rolled twice, and the highest results of the two affects the roll". Can't think of any less clumsy wording. :D


I like that wording so much better than what it on there!




> Area damage is just spirit guardians, more or less.


This is kind of my point.  It's pretty similar to Spirit Guardians, a level 3 spell.  So, a level 5 Bard gets to do Spirit Guardian damage, at a larger AoE and can do it 4 times per short rest.  That's pretty scary in my mind.





> Animated allies aren't that great to begin with. Burst benefit is significantly better than the one necromancers get (especially considering Requiem), but a necromancer can create and/or control more undead. I wouldn't say confusion proper is strictly worse, it affects multiple targets after all. Constant bane-like effect (I assume your mean the 3 save-debuffing dirges) has narrower application than bane itself: your friendly battlefield controller will have to use appropriate spells to take advantage. The one debuffing attack rolls? Fear immunity is pretty common.
> Getting one die back on a short rest isn't free. I imagine requiring some creativity from a player at my table to benefit from this. Might be poor game design to rely on it, though. Still, too thematic a mechanic just to to scrape it.
> To be completely honest? I think this one needs lots of playtesting: while dirges sound overpowered on paper, there are these limitations of concentration, range and kind of each of them not being a universal solution to every problem, and this bard doesn't know all of them: 4 dirges at levels that matter the most. Maybe I should bring it down to just 2 dirges at 3rd level.
> As esteemed Twelvetrees pointed out above, bards generally rely heavily on concentration spells. True, a bard can play a blaster, a healer or even a bit of secondary support or controller without concentration spells (having magical secrets in mind), but this still takes away a lot from the style bards generally excel at.
> 
> I will probably tone dirges down even more anyway. :)
> 
> Thank you for this review! I appreciate it so much when fellow homebrewers give feedback on my entries.


I will agree with you, I would want to see it in practice at different levels to see how it actually will play and concentration does limit it significantly.  However, a bard still gets shatter, Earth Tremor, Healing Word, Blindness/Deafness, Charms, Synaptic (and others) to choose from when they are playing a dirge.  It could be player pretty darn well given the right player.

----------


## Ilerien

> This is kind of my point.  It's pretty similar to Spirit Guardians, a level 3 spell.  So, a level 5 Bard gets to do Spirit Guardian damage, at a larger AoE and can do it 4 times per short rest.  That's pretty scary in my mind.


True. Spirit guardians give the additional speed debuff, though, and wisdom saves aren't generally a forte of those who are likely to get into melee range, in contrast to constitution, but still. Hmm, probably getting rid of Charisma modifier to damage will help: it would lag behind 3rd-level spirit guardians in terms of damage for most of this bard's career, and by the time it becomes d12+7 to match the mean value of 3d8, spirit guardians should be cast from a higher level slot to stay relevant, I'd say.


> I will agree with you, I would want to see it in practice at different levels to see how it actually will play and concentration does limit it significantly.  However, a bard still gets shatter, Earth Tremor, Healing Word, Blindness/Deafness, Charms, Synaptic (and others) to choose from when they are playing a dirge.  It could be player pretty darn well given the right player.


This I certainly can't argue with! :)

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## Twelvetrees

> *Fire Lash* - Can you grapple from 15 feet away?  Also, if you are grappling someone with the whip can you also attack with it?  Or can you only attack the grappled person?


All good questions. Yes, grappling from 15 feet away was intended. The Fire Lash isn't that great of a weapon, and I wanted to give some sort of beneficial feature with it. Grappling seemed appropriate.

The intent was that you wouldn't be able to attack with the whip if you were grappling with it, but I realize now that a flaming whip doing nothing to the creature it is wrapped around doesn't make a lot of sense. Added a line to clarify how targeting works when a creature is grappled by the whip.




> *Fear No Fire* - Dex being your caster modifier is a little bit odd here.  Any particular reason why you didn't use Wisdom as per the standard 5e monk ability?


I was comparing it to the Radiant Sun Bolt of the Way of the Sun Soul, which uses Dexterity. Changed to Wisdom for the sake of simplicity.




> *Firewalks* - You are flying, but you leave footprints?  This seems a little bit odd to me.  I understand the intent here, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my mind.


Would it work better if I reworded it to be something like "When you move on your turn, you can spend 2 ki points. If you do so, you can move vertically as well as horizontally. If you end your movement in midair, you fall as normal. During this movement, you leave footprints of flame..."




> *Spontaneous Combustion* - Is the save vs Wisdom per standard Monks or Dex per everything else in this subclass?  Also, I would make it so that you have to see the creature as well as being within 30 feet.


Added a save calculation. Added a sight clause as well.




> I wouldn't mind seeing the Fire Lash Whip ignore fire resistance somewhere around level 6.  It's a class defining feature and I would hate to not be able to use it if someone resists fire damage.


That's a good call. Added.



More reviews.

*Spoiler: Totemic Demonslayer*
Show


Could you paste the subclass into your post? Chunks of it were cut off when I tried viewing it in homebrewery.


*Fiend Hunter*
I would have expected Intelligence (Investigation) in there somewhere.

*Lesser Totem Tattoo*
Gaining a further tattoo at 5th doesn't sit well with me. It's off schedule for when rangers get subclass features, which makes this harder to keep track of and remember. It feels inelegant.

*Summon Spell Dampening*
While I recognize that this is a good homage to the prestige class ability, I can't imagine ever using it if I were to play a Totemic Demonslayer. The activation taking an action is a steep cost and the effects are extremely specific and unlikely to occur in the average adventure. There aren't a lot of conjuration spells that foes are likely to cast and fiends summoning other fiends will only happen if you're playing an extremely specific type of game.

I think this needs to be easier to use and to have broader effects when it is. Another option would be to move it up to be the 15th level feature and have it produce an _antimagic field_ instead.

*Greater Totem Tattoo*
Like I mentioned with the lesser, gaining subclass features on non-subclass feature levels feels inelegant.

*Tattoos*
Not allowing these to ever be changed reads as combative. I'm aware that was the wording of the original prestige class, but it feels out of line with the current design philosophy for 5e.

Only being able to use each tattoo once per long rest is incredibly restrictive, too. For comparison, a Horizon Walker of 3rd level can do 1d8 extra force damage at the cost of their bonus action, each and every turn. A 3rd level Totemic Demonslayer with a snake tattoo can deal an extra 1d8 + double Strength modifier damage for three rounds _per day_. Unless there's only a handful of round of combat in a single adventuring day, the Horizon Walker comes out well ahead.

*Lesser*

_Allosaurus_
Taking a bonus action to activate a tattoo conflicts with this tattoo taking a bonus action to use its secondary attack.

Do you need both hands free to make use of the secondary attack? Or can you use the hand you're grappling with to make that attack?

_Ape_
Taking a bonus action to activate a tattoo conflicts with this tattoo taking a bonus action to rend.

_Baboon_
This is a utility feature. It's a really cool utility feature. I'd want to take it, too, but I don't think I would. Please don't make players choose between cool utility abilities or combat capabilities.

_Badger_
What.

It's been a while since I've seen a feature that is explicitly better than another one, but Badger is literally a better option than Sea Turtle, making Sea Turtle a trap option. Badger is also far and away the best option here, because it takes the primary schtick of the barbarian and adds it to the ranger. I suspect that Badger is the only option players would choose, were they to play a Totemic Demonslayer.

Either bring everything else up to this power level or get rid of this entirely. I'd suggest the latter.

_Boar_
This is awkward to activate. The player has to know they're likely going to drop to 0 hit points.

If they do, this makes them nearly unkillable. Like Badger, this is giving me a sour taste in my mouth of encroaching too much on the barbarian's territory.

_Crocodile_
This is cool as well! But it's also a feature that would be considered fluff in 5e, which ultimately means it's not worth taking when compared to any other option.

_Deinonychus_
Taking a bonus action to activate a tattoo conflicts with this tattoo taking a bonus action to use.

It also is the third tattoo I've read that seems to be a variation on the theme of "use a bonus action to make an unarmed strike that does more damage." Could those tattoos all be consolidated into one? They feel duplicative.

_Dimetrodon_
This is mostly utility as well. There's not much point in taking it when compared with the other options.

_Sea Turtle_
As explored above, a trap option when compared with Badger.

_Snake_
Here's the fourth "make an unarmed strike" tattoo. Oddly, this one doesn't mention a bonus action. Which means we finally see one of these that doesn't conflict with the activation cost for tattoos. And probably means this is the best option of the four.

*Greater*

_Ankylosaurus_
This is still worse than a Badger tattoo.

_Giant Wasp_
This requires you to be fighting fiends to ever be used. For that alone, it's unlikely to be picked. It's got one rare and slightly cheesy use case: A Totemic Demonslayer who uses a bow could use this to coat all of their arrows. If they were fighting fiends, this would suddenly become really useful.

_Phanaton_
Again, it feels bad as a player to have to choose between utility and combat features. This is a utility feature and has quite specific use cases for when it comes in handy, which make it unlikely to be picked.

_Tabaxi_
This is nigh useless. Any creature whose resistances can be beaten by silvered weapons can also be beaten by magic weapons. In addition, natural attacks aren't a thing in 5e. Assuming you mean unarmed strikes, a ranger has very little ability to make good unarmed attacks, even with the lesser tattoos this subclass adds.

_Triceratops_
This is a small damage spike. It's decent, but nothing spectacular.

_Tyrannosaurus_
Also a small damage spike, but lasts longer. Probably more useful.


_Whirlwind_
This outclasses Phanaton in every way except for duration. But it's a utility ability that emulates _fly_ for a tenth of the duration and you only get it at 15th level at the earliest. This feels bad.

I think breaking away from copying the prestige class exactly into 5e would help this a lot. There are a lot of aspects of 3.5 design philosophy in this that don't fit in well in 5e. I'm left with the sense that if I choose this as my ranger subclass I wouldn't be getting much out of it other than a couple new ways to make unarmed strikes and a couple options for miniature damage spikes if I made it to really high levels.

The other impression I got was a sense of "I'm a ranger who actually wanted to play a barbarian" and that comes entirely from the Badger tattoo.



*Spoiler: White Necromancy*
Show


*White Necromancy*
Uh. I'm coming back to this.

*Rebuke Death*
This is a perfectly fine feature. It seems a little odd for a wizard, who probably doesn't have a ton of health, but it gives them a little bit of healing ability, which is cool. I like this. It's got fun potential.

*Life Bond*
Pedantry note: Free actions aren't a thing in 5e.

This feels really similar to Rebuke Death. I would have expected something thematically different from "sacrifice health to heal allies." I'll reiterate my earlier point: This doesn't work well with one of the lowest health classes in the game. Getting a second ability that emphasizes spending your own health to heal exacerbates that problem.

*Necromancer's Sacrifice*
I really want to see a feature that does something different than the ones we've already seen. This is the third variation of this sort of ability we've seen and the problems stated above are not improved by more of the same.

*Enduring Sacrifice*
This comes in much, much later than I would have expected and seems fairly humdrum in comparison with the sorts of features other wizard subclasses get at this level.

*White Necromancy*
Coming back to this. I'm not a fan of this feature. It allows a wizard to steal the spells that clerics are best known for. Stealing one or two of these spells might be okay, but this feels like way too much.




*Edit:* @Dualswinger, did you intend to post in the Base Class Contest thread?

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## Snowben Gaming

Welp, its been over a week since I last updated my entry and I've come to realise that I'm kinda just lacking the motivation for this one. I just don't really feel the theme I guess, so I've just completely stalled. So rather than throwing my head against a brick wall made of writer's (homebrewer's?) block, I'm just gonna skip this one. I'm sticking around though, so I'll be entering the next one. In the meantime, I'll get started on reviews.

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## BerzerkerUnit

I thought I was going to take a pass on this contest, then I started tinkering with a set of Vestige binder rules I'd written for something else and thought it could work as a Barbarian subclass.  Then I started writing it up as its own thread before remembering it fit the rules for this contest.  While the start times indicate it was up for 2 hours, it was actually only up for about 10 minutes in any useable fashion. 

If that's a dealbreaker pls ignore the Spiritwalker Barbarian.  Otherwise, please provide any feedback you so desire.  I will say I'm strongly considering replacing the unique Taboo curses with one generic one like "gain a level of exhaustion" or an aspect of Bestow Curse, but I think the unique curses enhance the flavor of the character.

My intent is that you start with 2 Vestiges known and have to roll randomly to learn of the others, but after you've bound one it becomes known to you.  I expect you could learn of others from a mentor, a foe, or a record of some sort.

Note: Barbarians get a fighting style at 1st in my home games (Unarmed, Dueling, Great Weapon, Thrown, or Archery).

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## Nuptup

> Note: Barbarians get a fighting style at 1st in my home games (Unarmed, Dueling, Great Weapon, Thrown, or Archery).


I've always kind of wondered why they didn't by default, but never acted on it. Has this had any large impact on balance, or has it mostly just been nice to add and no real issues arise? Would doing the same for rogues be an issue?

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## BerzerkerUnit

Its a notable bump when the Barbarian isnt raging or if they use a great axe. 

The oversight of granting them one kind of comes down to old timey racism, but thats a discussion for another thread.

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## sengmeng

I was going to give last minute feedback but honestly I liked everything and have no real suggestions. These entries are superb and captured the feel of their inspirations quite well (of the ones I recognized).

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## MoleMage

Got caught up today, vote thread will land tomorrow instead.

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## Amechra

> I've always kind of wondered why they didn't by default, but never acted on it. Has this had any large impact on balance, or has it mostly just been nice to add and no real issues arise? Would doing the same for rogues be an issue?


I think that, theoretically, Rage is supposed to be their "Fighting Style"  same with the Monk and Martial Arts. I feel like Rogues are less "interested" in Fighting Styles (other than Archery, but that's just because Archery is legitimately overpowered), thanks to their combat style being so idiosyncratic.

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## nickl_2000

> I think that, theoretically, Rage is supposed to be their "Fighting Style"  same with the Monk and Martial Arts. I feel like Rogues are less "interested" in Fighting Styles (other than Archery, but that's just because Archery is legitimately overpowered), thanks to their combat style being so idiosyncratic.


I would personally call rogue's sneak attack their fighting style.

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## BerzerkerUnit

> I would personally call rogue's sneak attack their fighting style.


I would agree. 

But if Rage is supposed to be a style, why make it such a mercilessly limited resource?

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## Amechra

> But if Rage is supposed to be a style, why make it such a mercilessly limited resource?


Maybe it's actually supposed to be Reckless Attacks? I dunno.

In general, I think that anyone who gets Extra Attack as part of their actual class chassis should also get Fighting Styles, if only because that's what helps distinguish a martial character from a non-martial character at really low levels.

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## BerzerkerUnit

> Maybe it's actually supposed to be Reckless Attacks? I dunno.
> 
> In general, I think that anyone who gets Extra Attack as part of their actual class chassis should also get Fighting Styles, if only because that's what helps distinguish a martial character from a non-martial character at really low levels.


Hard agree.

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## MoleMage

Voting time is here, so go cast your ballots!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...8#post25263658

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## nickl_2000

So, probably not the right place for this, but I figured that there are some really good homebrewers that enter this content so I'll give it a shot.

Does anyone here us DMs Guild for listing/selling homebrew?  I'd be looking at Pay What You Want model, but I don't know if people actually ever pay for anything to make it worthwhile to format it perfectly and get it listed.

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## MoleMage

> So, probably not the right place for this, but I figured that there are some really good homebrewers that enter this content so I'll give it a shot.
> 
> Does anyone here us DMs Guild for listing/selling homebrew?  I'd be looking at Pay What You Want model, but I don't know if people actually ever pay for anything to make it worthwhile to format it perfectly and get it listed.


I always write in gmbinder first and reformat from there, so it's not a lot of work for me to get a class up (I just hand it to a friend to proofread and it's usually good to go after I fix the spelling and punctuation). 10 minutes on GIMP making a cover and 10 minutes on DMsGuild filling out the metadata.

All told: it isn't a lot of money. I've had stuff up since March of last year and my best sellers have made me around 20 dollars. But with each new thing you post, your old stuff gets more traffic, so the value grows over time with number of things posted.

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## nickl_2000

> I always write in gmbinder first and reformat from there, so it's not a lot of work for me to get a class up (I just hand it to a friend to proofread and it's usually good to go after I fix the spelling and punctuation). 10 minutes on GIMP making a cover and 10 minutes on DMsGuild filling out the metadata.
> 
> All told: it isn't a lot of money. I've had stuff up since March of last year and my best sellers have made me around 20 dollars. But with each new thing you post, your old stuff gets more traffic, so the value grows over time with number of things posted.


I've always used https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/ myself, which I can combine different subclasses together into a few sets and give it a shot.  Thanks.

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## BerzerkerUnit

> I've always used https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/ myself, which I can combine different subclasses together into a few sets and give it a shot.  Thanks.


Same here. I clear probably ~50 USD a year.
Adventures sell way better than player options.

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## nickl_2000

> Same here. I clear probably ~50 USD a year.
> Adventures sell way better than player options.


Nothing wrong with that,  that gets me a free book and set of dice a year.  Got to have something to support the habit.

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## MoleMage

> Alrighty, our winners are:
> 
> In 3rd place, with seven points, we have Twelvetrees with the Way of the Firestarter! Even the wisest of monks love burning stuff.
> 
> In 2nd place, also with seven points but winning via the second tiebreaker, we have nickl_2000's Elf! Hie ye back to thee good olde days.
> 
> And in 1st place, earning twelve points, we have Ilerien's College of Laments! Sing a dirge. Play an elegy. Raise a zombie (wait what?).
> 
> Our next theme is resoundingly So You Don't Have To II, with Hold My Ale coming in as the runner up. I need a few minutes to get it formatted and then we can start on our posts!


Voting is called (two days late, sorry; NaNoWriMo trounced me this year) and new thread is formatted and up! https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...n-t-Have-To-II

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## Nuptup

Kind of sucks that my previous subclass submission would have been completely perfect for this contest lol. Darn.

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## Ilerien

Apparently, I missed the deadline for voting. It was a long week. :(
To compensate for this, let me squeeze a quick review into my schedule.

*Spoiler: Monastic Tradition: Zerth'Arai*
Show

I certainly like the flavor! The githzerai need more love.
Judging by the description, I expect this monk to mess with action economy a lot.

*Spoiler: Borrow Potential*
Show




> Beginning at 3rd level after choosing this tradition you learn to borrow the force of potential blows from the near future. Used judiciously, the loss of power in the future isn't noticeable, but an initiate can siphon great power from those future moments for explosive power that may eliminate the need to even strike a blow in the future.
> Once per turn when you hit with an unarmed attack you can deal additional damage equal to your proficiency bonus.  Alternatively, when you take the attack action on your turn you can choose to apply this extra damage to every attack you make until the beginning of your next turn.  When you use the feature in this way you can only take one action or bonus action on your following turn.


Any monk could use a source of reliable bonus damage without having to expend ki. Good.
Do you have to activate the second clause before resolving your first attack?

*Spoiler: Continuum Transference*
Show




> Also at 3rd level you learn to share moments of your personal time line with nearby allies.  When you use your Step of the Wind or Patient Defense features you can allow a creature you can see within 30 feet to use their reaction and gain their benefit instead.  A creature that Dashes can move up to your speed as part of the reaction.  A creature that Disengages or Dodges retains that benefit until the beginning of your next turn, regardless of what they do with their action on their own turn.


I see nothing wrong with it. Thematic and useful.

*Spoiler: Temporal Scythe*
Show




> At 6th level your mastery of the ebb and flow of time allows you to steal time from foes.  When you hit a creature with an unarmed attack you can force it to make a Wisdom saving throw against your Ki DC.  On a failure the creature becomes _Slowed_ until the end of your next turn and you can apply the benefits of _Haste_ to a creature you can see within 30 feet.  A creature affected by _Haste_ in this way does not lose the ability to take actions when the effect ends.  No matter how many creatures are slowed in this way, only one creature can gain the _Hasted_ benefit.
> You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Proficiency bonus and recover all uses after a long rest.  If you have no uses left you can continue to use this feature by spending a Ki point for each additional use.


Generally, 5e avoids cross references to spells like "this effect is just like the spell X, but does Y instead of Z". It's likely to cause confusion when some finer things are brought into question, like, do you have to concentrate on the effect?.. I suppose the answer is "no", but this is speculation.
I'd actually duplicate the relevant parts of haste and slow descriptions (with an additional note that this effect doesn't allow a creature that can already take 2 actions per turn - for example, using ordinary haste or action surge -  take the third one). Otherwise, it seems like go-to tactic if your party is fighting a creature that's going to stay on the battlefield for more than a couple of rounds. Maybe nerf it down slightly by cutting down effect durations? Or introducing ki cost right off the bat? I'm not really sure.

*Spoiler: Well of Udyr*
Show




> At 11th level your art allows you to shred causality forcing fate to reconfigure itself.  When a creature you can see within 30 feet is hit by an attack or fails a saving throw you can use your reaction to force the attack or save to target another creature within 30 feet.  If the affected spell has a concentration duration, you must concentrate on the spell.  This effect creates a visible distortion in reality that originates from you but allows melee attacks to strike creatures beyound their reach and spells intended for one's self to fall on another.
> You can use this feature once and regain its use after a short or long rest.


You want to word it more strictly. For example, can you steal concentration on an instance of hypnotic pattern that your entire party failed their saves against, thereby effectively dispelling it? Can you provide another "concentration slot" for your party if your wizard banishes a random rat, and then you redirect the effect to an actual monster you're fighting?
1 per rest is fine, maybe allow to spend ki on further uses?

*Spoiler: Zerth's Warudo*
Show




> At 17th level your attunement to the march of time attains perfection.  You can cast _Time Stop_ as an action.  When you cast _Time Stop_ in this way you can attack other creatures with unarmed strikes without prematurely ending the effect.  These attacks have advantage and are automatically critical hits as if the targets were paralyzed.  Alternatively, you can cast this spell as a reaction when _Time Stop_ or similar magic is used within 1000 feet of you in which case you and the triggering creature resolve your turns normally.


Did you forget to impose a per rest limit or assign a ki cost?
Even if it's severely limited, it might be better than Quivering Palm which is generally viewed as the best monk subclass capstone. I mean, that's 4 or 5 (if you manage to squeeze in haste with your 6th level feature) guaranteed crits per round for 1d4+1 rounds. Let's say 4 attacks, 3.5 rounds on average, 14 attacks. Base damage would be d10x2 + 5 which is 224 damage + 6 additional damage per round from the 3rd level feature (total of 245), assuming all attacks hit. Also,  performing that much attack and damage rolls in a row is kinda tedious.
I'd suggest sticking to the original time stop, but if it end as a result of your unarmed attack or an attack with your monk weapon, the target suffers a lot of force damage due to the temporal knot shattering.
Regarding the reaction, I'd say it would be more elegant to give this monk immunity to effects messing with the flow of time. If anyone tries to stop time for you (with time stop or similar effect), you act and take your turns as normal (while all others don't). Won't change much, it's still a very niche benefit.


Overall, I like it. The theme is here, I really like the concept of pulling some oomph from your own future. And the implementation delivers on expectations, though some features could really benefit from clearer wording and taking some edge cases into account.

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## BerzerkerUnit

> Apparently, I missed the deadline for voting. It was a long week. :(
> To compensate for this, let me squeeze a quick review into my schedule.
> 
> *Spoiler: Monastic Tradition: Zerth'Arai*
> Show
> 
> I certainly like the flavor! The githzerai need more love.
> Judging by the description, I expect this monk to mess with action economy a lot.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your feedback!

The slow and haste from L6 are both until the end of your next turn Ill tighten up the language. 

The L11 will get touched up as well but Im not worried about edge cases in general. I know some think its unfair to leave balancing specific combos to DMs but Ive never had a problem with doing it because it means classes and subclasses can work on their own merits and be balanced against each other, without the Spectre of a broken combo preventing something cool from being implemented. 

The level 17 is a 1/day, looks like the last line did not get copy pasted from my gdoc though I am considering making it 15 Ki, ie exactly enough for maximum ORA ORA.

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## Ilerien

> The slow and haste from L6 are both until the end of your next turn Ill tighten up the language.


Oh! I'm sorry, missed it completely in my hurry to finish the review. :D But indeed should make it more clear the duration applies to both slow and haste effects.
Also, does it mean you can take 2 additional actions in total if you haste yourself this way?

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## BerzerkerUnit

> Oh! I'm sorry, missed it completely in my hurry to finish the review. :D But indeed should make it more clear the duration applies to both slow and haste effects.
> Also, does it mean you can take 2 additional actions in total if you haste yourself this way?


As a general rule, spell effects don't stack, only the highest level (or the one the player chooses in beneficial cases) retains its effects.  So this Haste wouldn't give you multiple extra actions, it's still the effect of haste so won't stack with itself or the spell.  However, it might be the player's choice to let this effect overwrite a spell version in the event the caster is at risk of losing concentration, since this one doesn't kill your following turn.

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## sengmeng

Idk if it fits the theme but I had fun. The Magnificent Bastard is up and ready for PEACHes.

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## BerzerkerUnit

> Idk if it fits the theme but I had fun. The Magnificent Bastard is up and ready for PEACHes.


In my experience we are very loose with theme, but I'm struggling with this one.  As is, if we were to vote on it right now, I'd say it doesn't fit.  But if you provided your rationale or inspirations, I wouldn't make an issue of it. 
*Spoiler: My reasoning*
Show

My understanding of the purpose of the theme is that they function as both writing prompt and very rough yardstick.  It's hard enough asking someone to evaluate say martials vs casters (a common division within a theme), but to evaluate two things with very different design goals against each other is that much harder.  So just throwing anything you think is a good idea into the contest isn't exactly fair.  

It might be a great idea, but Protagonist the subclass vs "options intended to facilitate group/other's actions" is going to be a rough comparison.


On to critique- 

Level 3- MADness is always a tough sell, I'd give them a proficiency option for Persuasion/Intimidation and let them add proficiency bonus instead.  Weaker at the outset, likely stronger come level 5, overtaking the Shield spell at level 17.

"Asspull"- conceptually a solid ability.  I've used similar mechanics myself for a hoard feature from a dragon patron and a "batman" subclass for a hero class.  The aesthetic of literally placing things up one's gluteal division isn't doing it any favors though, no matter how cheeky you think it is, no one wants to climb a rope it looks like your PC pulled from their playdough not-so-fun-unless-you're-into-that factory.  

Backstory reveal- fine

Perfect Defense- "the normal damage of the attack or effect is reduced to one d4.  This only applies to the triggering attack." might work better than weapon dice.  I'm not sure what weapon dice means with this feature when it's a crit and no clue what it means for something like scorching ray.  I'd also cap this ability at Proficiency bonus/day.

Perfect Offense- Trap option from my perspective and kind of undermines the theme of this subclass.  "Trade your core feature for another subclass' core feature" doesn't feel good and some maneuvers are crap and you aren't rolling dice so they won't double on a crit... This is a level 15 fighter feature.  "When you make an attack that would miss you can treat the d20 as if it had rolled the minimum number to hit instead." or "When you hit a creature with an attack you can declare it a perfect strike.  The  target has vulnerability to the damage of this attack." either would be fine.

Relentless- "whenever you roll initiative with fewer than your maximum uses of Plot Armor, you gain one use." is better.  Plot armor on its own isn't so great a single use is make or break and all the other features like that are unequivocally bad as written.

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## sengmeng

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> In my experience we are very loose with theme, but I'm struggling with this one.  As is, if we were to vote on it right now, I'd say it doesn't fit.  But if you provided your rationale or inspirations, I wouldn't make an issue of it. 
> *Spoiler: My reasoning*
> Show
> 
> My understanding of the purpose of the theme is that they function as both writing prompt and very rough yardstick.  It's hard enough asking someone to evaluate say martials vs casters (a common division within a theme), but to evaluate two things with very different design goals against each other is that much harder.  So just throwing anything you think is a good idea into the contest isn't exactly fair.  
> 
> ...


Hmm I think I'll take it almost all the way back to the drawing board.

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## Ilerien

> As a general rule, spell effects don't stack, only the highest level (or the one the player chooses in beneficial cases) retains its effects.  So this Haste wouldn't give you multiple extra actions, it's still the effect of haste so won't stack with itself or the spell.  However, it might be the player's choice to let this effect overwrite a spell version in the event the caster is at risk of losing concentration, since this one doesn't kill your following turn.


Sorry, my question was unclear. :(
I mean, by the wording, you give a creature of your choice haste effect until the end of your next turn. Does applying it to yourself allow you to reap the benefit twice: right after you use the feature and during your next turn?

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## BerzerkerUnit

> Sorry, my question was unclear. :(
> I mean, by the wording, you give a creature of your choice haste effect until the end of your next turn. Does applying it to yourself allow you to reap the benefit twice: right after you use the feature and during your next turn?


Nice catch! RAW, yes, and while that's an unintended boost, I don't think it's so big it needs a nerf. I think you're getting ~15 damage out of it if you place it on yourself that way, but might get ~20 if you put it on a GWM wielder sharpshooter.  The +2 AC is needed as a Monk and the extra movement is probably extraneous in most environments.

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## sengmeng

Tarquin's subclass is shelved for the time being, considering abandoning him until he fits the theme better and going with the Circle of the Void druid. PEACHes welcome.

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## Ilerien

Now, let me take a look...
*Spoiler: druid circle of the void*
Show




> *Fill the Void*
> Beginning at 2nd level, as a reaction to a creature you can see taking an action, you may spend a use of Wildshape to gain the ability to take the same action on your next turn. If the action was a spell or consumes a spell slot, you must do the same and must have a slot of the level that the spell or ability consumed. Static numerical values, such as bonuses to attack rolls or save DCs, are the same as they were for the original creature who took the action, but you reroll all associated dice.
> You must fill all criteria to perform this borrowed action; a touch spell stills requires you to have a target in your reach, sneak attack still requires advantage and a finesse or ranged weapon, divine smite would still require a hit with a melee weapon attack, etc. If something prevents you from performing the action when it is your turn, this ability is wasted.


Hmm... If a barbarian uses reckless attack, do you have advantage on your attack? How about a wolf's pack tactics? Can you haste your entire party if you have a sorcerer with twinned spell around? Innate spellcasting and its variations like mystic arcanum, do they not consume your spell slots? Ancient red dragon's fire breath? Yochlol's mist form, are you stuck in it if nobody ever uses this action around you again?
I see several potential issues here. First, even restricted to you party members' abilities, just copying actions will certainly open a whole new can of worms at the table. Talk about ambiguity... Second, monster abilities aren't intended to be used by player characters. I'm aware that we have wild shape, but beasts generally don't have anything game-breaking in the hands of a player, and 5e seems to be over with "pick a monster" approach in favor of "here is a special stat block with some variables for you" one with regards to what mechanics players can access. Third, everything goes out of the window when this druid attains 20th level. Tbh, I'd decouple it from wild shape and restrict what actions you can mimic to "attack" and "cast a spell".



> *Void Strider*
> Beginning at 6th level, any time you use your reaction, you may teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space you can see, and take one adjacent willing creature along, who appears in an unoccupied space adjacent to the one you appear in.


I really want to take sentinel feat as this druid. And find a way to obtain a shield spell somehow.
Seems both potentially abusable, as a lot of features and circumstances grant reactions, and kinda out of player's control, as reactions are triggered by external circumstances.



> *Hunger of the Void*
> Beginning at 10th level, you add Counterspell to your spell list and always have it prepared. If you successfully counter a spell, you gain a slot of the level that was used to cast the countered spell that can only be used to cast that spell. If that spell is not otherwise on your spell list, that slot is the only one you can use to cast it. You may only store one such slot and spell at a time.


Seems fine! You can make it simpler, though, by decoupling it from spell slots altogether. Just change the wording to "you can cast this spell at the level it has been cast once until the end of your next long rest, and you can have only one spell stored this way at any time".



> *Mystic Conduit*
> Beginning at 14th level, as a reaction to seeing a creature within 30 feet of you cast a spell, you may spend one of your slots of an equal level to become the point of origin of the spell and change the target at your option. The caster's slot is not consumed, but they must be willing to allow this to happen or it fails and your reaction is used up.


I'm imagining this druid peeking around the corner and casting meteor swarm initiated by a party wizard and then teleporting away.
Interestingly, this looks a more restricted and clearly defined version on the 2nd level feature with one distinction: it doesn't consume a use of wild shape. Kinda becomes irrelevant at 20th level unless the 2nd level feature doesn't allow you to copy your sorcerer's twinned haste. ;)
Also, do you have to expend a spell slot if your party member casts something without using a spell slot?



> "Nature abhors a vacuum" says the ancient wisdom. By embracing nothingness, the space between stars, the Circle of the Void druid leaves themselves an empty vessel, inviting outside forces to fill that nothingness as needed, just as nature does when a gap appears in the ecosystem. The Circle of the Void druid mimics those around them and allows mystic energy to flow into and through them, sometimes for offense, sometimes for defense, and eventually learns to use the nothingness in between spaces as a path to travel instantly over short distances.


I'm sorry to say this (after Tarquin's subclass received the same treatment  :Small Eek: ), but, overall, only 14th level feature has anything to do with support or sacrifice: it, essentially, provides spell slots for other spellcasters of your party. Which, depending on the party, might see very little use. The 6th level feature has some support potential, but its weird trigger takes control over it out of your hands unless you specifically build this druid around getting reactions as often as you could. Other that above, it's more "hold my beer" subclass than "so you don't have to" one. ;)

Also, it might be just me, but this one doesn't feel like it should be a druid subclass. Maybe a sorcerer? Or a fighter with spell slots?
I have a sorcerer subclass converted from 3.5e Incantatrix, but I'm reluctant to post it because it has exactly one sacrifice/support feature (incidentally, directed at party spellcasters too), and even if it comes at 1st level, it's still not enough to feel thematic, in my opinion.

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## sengmeng

Ok, I shelved the circle of the void, and have resubmitted with the lich heritor sorcerer, I don't know guys, this theme might not be for me.

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## Old Harry MTX

> Ok, I shelved the circle of the void, and have resubmitted with the lich heritor sorcerer, I don't know guys, this theme might not be for me.


I feel you, I just can't pull out anything interesting...

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## Ilerien

> Ok, I shelved the circle of the void, and have resubmitted with the lich heritor sorcerer, I don't know guys, this theme might not be for me.


I can relate! It took me several attempts to think up something thematic: every idea preceding that Companion warlock turned out something not fitting the theme or not worth posting somehow.

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## BerzerkerUnit

> I can relate! It took me several attempts to think up something thematic: every idea preceding that Companion warlock turned out something not fitting the theme or not worth posting somehow.


Did I miss the voting thread?

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## Ilerien

> Did I miss the voting thread?


Either it doesn't exist, or we both missed it. I'm worried for MoleMage, honestly.

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## MoleMage

> Either it doesn't exist, or we both missed it. I'm worried for MoleMage, honestly.


I had kind of a hectic couple weeks entire holiday season, but I am well other than that. I should start getting caught up on my backlist of stuff to do soon and this is on it. Sorry for the delays everyone.

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## Ilerien

> I had kind of a hectic couple weeks entire holiday season, but I am well other than that. I should start getting caught up on my backlist of stuff to do soon and this is on it. Sorry for the delays everyone.


Glad to know you're okay!
And nothing to be sorry about. The fact that holidays themselves and days before and after them leave even less free time to do something than regular workdays was one of those unpleasant surprises of adult life. :D

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## BerzerkerUnit

> I had kind of a hectic couple weeks entire holiday season, but I am well other than that. I should start getting caught up on my backlist of stuff to do soon and this is on it. Sorry for the delays everyone.


Welcome back and take care!

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## nickl_2000

Same! I'm glad everyone is good, I'm with other though it was an insane December.

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## MoleMage

Okay, I'm back in it. Feeling good, feeling healthy, making threads. Getting caught up. So everyone should go vote!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-(Open-to-All)

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## MoleMage

New thread is up! https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...s-Fortunate-II

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## sengmeng

Decided to throw my hat in the ring with the Barbarian Path of Recklessness

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## nickl_2000

I really wish I hadn't created this one earlier as it would have been absolutely perfect for this contest.

Paladin Oath of Two Faces
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-ua...ew?usp=sharing

Oh well, back to work on my new entry  :Small Smile:

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## nickl_2000

I decided to use the term "fortune" a little bit differently with my new subclass (although there is an element of chance in there as well).  The Coinslinger Fighter.

You magically empower coins and can sling them at enemies.  Please feel free to take a look and rip apart all the issues that exist with it.


Reviews for other entries will come early next week

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## BerzerkerUnit

Alright, decided on a Dragon Patron rebuild for my entry. Feedback is appreciated. Ill be churning out some on whats been put out so far. 

Shifted to really increase the fortune element in a couple ways. 

Draconic Luck is like a supercharged Talisman Pact, but only for yourself and stacks with Talisman. 

Hoard Access (temporary name, maybe Hoard Accountant) is a gachapon machine you can stock over time. 
The DM has a lot of control, interrupted rests keep it from working too easily, but I think the randomness will appeal to some and the ability to use downtime to create a hot list works for me. 

Draconic Wisdom pushes your mental checks (not saves or attacks) to near sure things. 

Finally, Wyrmself is I want to be a dragon the feature. Bonus word count for bladepact users that want to fight like Voltron lions or the Pokémon sword dog.

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## Oerlaf

Having read the Treasure Island once again, I decided to enter this contest with a subclass named... Gentleman of Fortune! Sailors do need the best of their luck to beat storms and ocean, don't they?

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## tzurk

Flagging some ideas for a support-based Artificer build - using magical enchantment/enhancement and bending luck to favour his allies

Working name: Augur 

3rd - spell list - buffs/enhancements, focus on reroll spells, modifiers, or advantage/disadvantage

3rd - something similar to Order Cleric's cast spell>ally gets a reaction attack. maybe they can use reaction to grab a single-use 1d4 bonus until the start of your next turn, maybe advantage on the next attack. maybe gain temp HP. maybe gain +1 AC.

5th - hmm - maybe extra attack, but you can replace one attack with the Help action? 

9th - would love to layer something on top of Flash of Genius, just gotta work out a way that doesnt double/triple dip with FoG itself + level 3 boost

15th - a straight power boost to 3rd level ability - maybe benefits become more powerful, or maybe you can share them with yourself or your allies 

Will put in some work when I have some more time!

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## BerzerkerUnit

> Having read the Treasure Island once again, I decided to enter this contest with a subclass named... Gentleman of Fortune! Sailors do need the best of their luck to beat storms and ocean, don't they?


Alright, nautical rogue is a good concept an I generally like the direction. 

Im a little pressed for time so assume if I dont mention something at all, I think its satisfactory and therefore, quite good as is. 

Missing from concept is something that lets you function in water and maybe a ribbon for nautical codes/semaphore ala thieves cant. I think something like you gain a swim speed equal to your speed during until the beginning of your next turn you use your cunning action. could work without it just being a swim speed.  The semaphore thing is straightforward. 

Swinging shove, Im not a fan of fidgety math and 5e isnt either. Id recommend changing this to if you can swing from something while making a shove attack, you gain a +5 bonus. I think the default rules would grant advantage so this would be a major boost. 

Better Lucky. Please make this proficiency times per long rest OR leave it 1/rest but make it a creature you can see and make it attack, Ability check, or save.

Bold Attacker
This doesnt feel like a capstone to me. It is potent, but passive, using it is a nice boost but doesnt feel like it will change the tide of a battle. Good luck!

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## BerzerkerUnit

Coinslinger Fighter

I like this a lot more than I thought I would! 

I thing it has an easily patched fatal flaw: I think Slings have the loading property? Ill have to check. 

Empowered Coinshot. Id rather see the base damages increased at 3rd when the value of money is so much higher and shift to two dice whenever you action surge or second wind.

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## BerzerkerUnit

Path of Recklessness

Its good but has a common issue of the subclass features not really doing anything outside Rage. I like the escalation mechanics. 

I think if you decoupled Rage and Taunt/Ferocity, it would be better. Add a bit where Ferocity die increases a size when raging. 

I understand what Storm of Blades is intended to do, but it has a minimum two round set up as is and the wording is a little confusing (like it means what it means, but as written allows the inference you somehow give yourself disadvantage after rolling). 
I think When you Reckless Attack, you can instead apply disadvantage to your attacks until the beginning of your next turn. When you do, treat any hit as a critical hit. As a Barbarian that makes Brutal Critical a major asset and having buddies grant you advantage can be come a core tactic. 

Good luck!

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## nickl_2000

> Coinslinger Fighter
> 
> I like this a lot more than I thought I would! 
> 
> I thing it has an easily patched fatal flaw: I think Slings have the loading property? Ill have to check. 
> 
> Empowered Coinshot. Id rather see the base damages increased at 3rd when the value of money is so much higher and shift to two dice whenever you action surge or second wind.


Thanks, it's something that people talk about all the time as a concept, may as well bring it to life.  I also wanted to make a better arcane archer version 😃

They don't actually, they have the ammunition and range (30/120) properties.  Although I am debating adding the ability to load it one handed (this is something that was definitely done in real life).

Interesting, I will consider touching up the damage on early on.  Maybe increase a step at low levels and do something different as a capstone?

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## BerzerkerUnit

> Thanks, it's something that people talk about all the time as a concept, may as well bring it to life.  I also wanted to make a better arcane archer version 😃
> 
> They don't actually, they have the ammunition and range (30/120) properties.  Although I am debating adding the ability to load it one handed (this is something that was definitely done in real life).
> 
> Interesting, I will consider touching up the damage on early on.  Maybe increase a step at low levels and do something different as a capstone?


One other thing I might consider would be making all coins "Simple Ranged Weapons with the _Thrown_ property and a range of 10/20, or used as sling ammunition."

Doing the Hawkeye snap should be baked in somehow.

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## tzurk

1st draft of the augur is up. My gut is that I'm happy enough with the theme of the features but might still have some fine tuning about the specifics, the order and/or the power levels. 

Will have a look this week at giving some feedback to other subclasses!

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## nickl_2000

Alright, review time:

*Spoiler: Elder Dragon*
Show



Spells: Nothing broken here.  Everything seems to make perfect sense
*Draconic Resistance* - how long does the resistance last for if you don't use the immunity?  Otherwise it seems fine here.  

*Hoard Accountant* - My gut here says that there is something that could be broken here, but for the life of me I can't figure it out.  One of the issues is that given enough time, you could get all the manuals from treasure table H.  So, you could boost all your stats by +2 (at level 17, I'm not sure that is necessarily bad, but it is something to keep track of).  Also how would that work with returning it?  you are technically not using up the tomes magic, it just takes a long time before it can be used again.  Also, any time you can pull a wand it would be pretty nice.  You take a short rest, trade out your one wand for another one and have all the charges back.  However, considering you would need a rest to get the wand, and a second rest of attune to it it is still likely perfectly fine.

An interesting take on it, certainly something that would be worthwhile to keep with Warlock until you get the level 14 or even 17. Which alone makes this a really good subclass




*Spoiler: Divine Domain: Serendipity Domain*
Show



Domain Spells: The only one that I think would be a great addition here would be Mirror Image.  it seems to fit into the idea of it all very well.

*Uncanny Insight* - An interesting ability, although not for the feint of heart or newer player.  I could see this being a real time suck for a player who doesn't know the cleric spell list really well.  Also, it could be a gigantic pain over several sessions to remember all the spells that have been cast before.  I think one of the biggest impacts of this is that I would never have to prepare revivify, I cna just switch out to it in case someone dies.  That alone makes this ability worth it.  That being said, if you wanted to simplify this you could say.  "Once per day, you can cast a spell on your cleric spell list that you don't have prepared, this still uses a spell slot like normal."  Doing something like this means I don't have to track the spells I've already cast.





*Spoiler: Rogue Subclass: Gentleman of Fortune*
Show



*Dastardly Opportunist* - This is a great ability, but I just don't see it coming up enough to make it worth being the only think you get at level 9.  I would love to see an ability that is more active here as well as the passive ability you have mentioned.

*Better Lucky than Good* - Can I use this with advantage?  So, I roll a 1 and a 2, can I turn the 1 into a 20?

This embodies the idea is a fun way, but it feels very passive.  A lot of the abilities are ones that you are just waiting for the right situation to trigger.  I wouldn't mind seeing a minor modification to make it more active and you being able to choose when you do some things.




*Spoiler: Artificer: Augur*
Show



*Sharpen Focus* - Is this an every round type thing?  Does it need to be activated?

I was pleasantly surprised by this class.  I am not a fan of divination in general, so I was prepared to say that it wasn't for me.  I think you did a really good job of balancing in combat abilities and out of combat abilities.








> Coinslinger Fighter
> 
> I like this a lot more than I thought I would!
> 
> I thing it has an easily patched fatal flaw: I think Slings have the loading property? Ill have to check.
> 
> Empowered Coinshot. Id rather see the base damages increased at 3rd when the value of money is so much higher and shift to two dice whenever you action surge or second wind.
> 
> 
> ...



You are completely right
"At level 3, a coin is considered a simple ranged weapon for you and has the finesse and ranged (15/30) properties and you can use it as a sling bullet"


I touched up the damage to "When slinging coins, you deal 1d6 damage with a copper, 1d8 with a silver piece, 1d10 damage with an electrum and gold piece, or 1d12 with a platinum piece. "

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## tzurk

@nickl, thanks mate. The level 5 feature is intended to be a one-time permanent choice - do you want to whack stuff with your hammer or do you want to stand at the back and firebolt (or do you want to BB/GFB and do both?) - will have a play with the wording to straighten that out.

the start of the reviews! I will edit this post as I get through more of them. please take my non-expert views as just that - the plain jane eye of an average gamer - I may well be wrong on a lot of these points!

Elder Dragon:
*Spoiler*
Show


Spells - seem mostly on song except for Catnap. It would be a fun way to say, cast Armor of Agathys first thing in the morning and then use another slot to immediately (well, almost) refresh both/all of your slots for the day - which I think is cool, flavourful, and far from OP, so I like it mechanically, just struggling to see a thematic link (not that every spell on every subclass list has one anyway!). 

Draconic Resistance - could probably do with some clarification - how long does the resistance last once you gain it? An hour, 8 hours, until you use this feature again? The reaction should have a clear trigger too - I imagine it's taking damage of the same type as your resistance, but that isn't explicit
Draconic Luck - reads fortune to me, and probably fine power wise. Not 100% sure about the scaling - compared to Divine Souls' Favored by the Gods, it starts slightly weaker but ends up stronger, and gets prof bonus uses per long rest rather than one per short/long - again, starting out weaker and then getting stronger. It is much better than the Wild Magic Sorcerer's Bend Luck, but that says more about Wild Magic than your subclass, and roughly equivalent to the Fiend Warlock's Dark One's Own Luck. This is my long winded way of saying this is a good and useful feature. You should probably specify when you roll the dice - e.g. before you know the result. 

Hoard Accountant - this is an interesting mechanic and kind of unprecedented in 5e - not that that is necessarily a bad thing. I like the randomness (fortune!) as well as more ways to get magic items outside of being an artificer. Hoard is spelled horde on the 5th line. It took me a few readings to understand that you can *either* request a specific item you've already placed in the hoard *or* roll for a random one - it might be an idea to make that explicit earlier in the feature, but that could just be my reading comp

do you get the gold for free on level up? ie can i get 40k total out of this feature, or is it "only" 25k total because I have to pay back the old loan before I take out a new one? 

Draconic Wisdom - I thought this was saves at first and went - whoa! - but for ability checks, I think this is fine, and not being able to "waste" a use on a crappy Investigation roll that the rogue then aces is a nice quality of life bonus. It stacks with Draconic Luck which is nice, and as written seems like you could keep rerolling until you get a good result, provided you had the uses left - not sure if that last one is intended. Although functionally inferior to just trying again, and potentially rerolling again...

Wyrmself - this is a cool feature that takes the subclass in a very different direction late in the game. I would be tempted to give this form a stat block ala the Wildfire druid's wildfire spirit or the new beastmaster's companion blocks just for ease of reading - there's a lot going on in one big block of text. 

Is there a reason you swap physical stats *except* dexterity? What is the drac form's Armor Class - it reads like it has a unique one, but there isn't one described - meaning that it would be 10 + dex, + prof from the feature (is that why we keep caster form's Dex?) - it could probably be just set to a number - 18/19 seems about right, or 13 + prof if you want it to scale...can you still cast spells in drac form? 

Prof bonus uses per day is probably too many - you can shift into this form pretty much every combat at the level you get it, and why wouldn't you? 40 ft concentration-free fly, +5/6 to concentration checks and con/str saves, a free Cone of Cold, good melee without much investment, maintaining all the perks of caster form. I'd suggest maybe twice per long rest ala Wild Shape, but I'm not 100% on that. 

I also wonder about this coming so late in the build. I understand it as a sort of capstone ability, but if everything is going to scale, I wonder if this could come online at level 1 somehow - e.g. with a single melee attack - and then grow as you take levels in the subclass. Between Draconic Wisdom and Draconic Luck there's not a lot of "doing", just "changing" rolls, and this might be a power/playstyle bump that could really define the subclass. 

Cool idea overall, some definite pings to theme and some good mechanics, just needs a bit of a tidy up for clarity! 



Serendipity Domain

*Spoiler*
Show


Blurb & spell list - very cool, concise and thematic. 

Implements of Serendipity - nice flavour that also allows for some fun out of combat things to happen - a nice feature. 

Uncanny Insight - I would probably drop the "provided you haven't cast it" part, and just say you can swap it for any other cleric spell. Scaling at 8th is a bit funny - I was going to say that it might make more sense for it to scale at a subclass feature level rather than a cleric feature level but then I remembered the 8th level cleric feature, although always one of two options (three with tasha's) is technically a subclass feature. Not sure. You could swap it with Twist Fate to let it scale with uses, because I think Twist Fate could probably go to prof bonuses per rest and still be fine (sure it's strong for multiclassing, Peace and Twilight and even Order also exist). 

Twist Fate - I really like this, and I also like that you specify you can't get out of it through other features, and I also like that you specify that you _keep_ dis/advantage on the roll. As above I think this might be better as your level 1 feature and turn Uncanny Insight into your CD. 

Fortune Teller is a bit wordy but I get the intent and think it's ok - divination has never really been strong in 5e IMO and this doesn't really change that but does add some quality of life to repeat castings. The scaling buff die is really interesting, but also really strong. Not sure if I feel like it's too much, unlimited d8s to out of combat ability checks through guidance actually concerns me more than d8 blesses. Maybe you could choose _one_ of those spells' dies to upgrade? Not sure though. Everyone would probably pick bless then, though bane is IMO one of the most underrated spells in the game. 

Level 8 feature is all goods.

Fortune's Favored - I'm struggling to think off the top of my head what these die might be - the only ones I can think of are healing spells and damage. Wish is wish. It definitely fits and the precedent is there with Arcana cleric.

Overall strong and flavourful, I really like this subclass.


Path of Recklessness:

*Spoiler*
Show



Taunt & Ferocity - wow, this is a really flavourful mechanic that makes sense and seems intuitive. How has nobody thought of this before? Decoupling it from rage gives the barbarian day-long utility that they sorely miss in general.

Tenacity - a nice defensive buff at the level that most barbs get one. 

Scorn (love all of the feature names btw) - does the enemy have to hit with their attack, or just use their reaction to make one in order to trigger this? Or is it just tied to the condition of moving away and triggering the op attack conditions? I'm 99% sure it's the second one but not sure.

Storm of Blades - trickily worded (there's a common thread of me struggling to read here!) - I'm not sure you need to say remove advantage if you had it as disadvantage already cancels it out; and if you can _then_ gain advantage from some other source (maybe a readied help?) can you make these attacks at advantage? I also don't think you need to specify the different types of attacks it affects (what is a secondary attack?) - "Until the start of your next turn, all attack rolls that hit count as critical hits" should cover it all. Provided you hit (which, with Extra Attack and Reckless Attack won't be any less likely than a Ranger/Paladin/Bard/Bladesinger swinging normally), this feature will guarantee a BA attack with GWM. I think I like that, though I am a little biased in my opinion that pure martials (and barbarians in particular) don't really need to have their power restrained in a world of paladins and wizards. 

Simple, effective, intuitive - this is a cool take. I see the link here of "fortune" and "trusting your luck". Good stuff.




Coinslinger

*Spoiler*
Show



Coinslinger - should probably say electrum _or_ gold piece rather than and. Is the "additional damage" in addition to anything, (ie a base damage of 1 for a coin) or is it just explaining that the damage die changes depending on the coin type?

Magical Coins - might be clearer if it says something like "instead of making an attack roll with your coin, you can target a 5 ft square within range." maybe also clarify that doing this only replaces one attack with a sling rather than the whole attack action. I hate 5es language sometimes! The effects all seem to be about right power-wise which is a pretty impressive feat given the variety. 

Fast Fingers - no problem here, cool and fluffy. 

Both level 7 features add to the theme and seem just right to me. Does "have no ammo" mean you just didn't load a coin, or that you must actually have no ammo - ie no money - to use this feature?

Potent Coinshot - yep, good. I don't even care that with action surge you could drop 8d10 worth of fire damage on somebody @11th level with this, I love it. (did you intend for unavoidable friendly fire with the radius upgrades?) 

Eveready - seems about right for this level on a fighter subclass. 

Empowered Coinshot - honestly not sure how to cross reference and see how the damage compares at this level. 15d10 fire damage in a 40 ft radius, sounds great, but using all your short rest resources sounds bad. 

Tight concept, scales well, matches the theme. Only getting 2 magic coins per short rest will probably feel bad at the start. Without your magic coins, you are pretty much just a baseline fighter with sleight of hand expertise. Could you potentially fold a Crossbow Expert-like ability into Coinslinger allowing you to make an additional attack with a sling? 

Jeez, the original Arcane Archer is bad...



Gentleman of Fortune

*Spoiler*
Show


my feedback here is a bit all over the place - pls take with a grain of salt! I love the visuals of this class and think that all the abilities fit, but I'm not sure if there's enough for the player to actually _do_ with them.

Whip Climber - a little bit of fluff, a little bit of crunch. A lot of tables seem to conflate athletics and acrobatics anyway, but it's nice to see a mechanical difference here. Does it need to be a whip? I think holding a scimitar in one hand and a rope in the other fits the pirate/sailor image pretty well too. 

Swinging Shove - is it important that you cant knock somebody prone with Dex - e.g. via a sly trip? It would be easy enough to fold part of these abilities together and say that you can use your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making Athletics checks. This would also combo nicely with Dastardly Opportunist - if you're giving your allies advantage, they are more likely to crit, which means triggering your own reaction attack.

Dastardly Opportunist - getting another chance for Sneak Attack is huge for a rogue. the conditions are pretty uncommon; maybe this could move to level 3 to be a defining feature of the class, and merge the "whip climbing" stuff into a single feature? 

Better Lucky Than Good - I like this feature but think there's a lot of overlap with the Lucky feat and halflings in general. maybe move this to the capstone, and just let yourself select any failed attack roll, ability check or saving throw to be treated as a natural 20?

Bold Attacker - if you do that, this might make a good level 9 or 13 feature - a consistent, passive/defensive ability. I think it should probably last until the start of your next turn rather than the end - letting it expire before giving you the opportunity to refresh it again. 

If everything moves the way I suggest, then that leaves a gap at either level 9 or 13. That feels a little too late to gain an innate climbing or swimming speed, though they would be fitting. Running short on suggestions here - might revisit later!

Overall, super cool thematics and a cohesive chassis, I think it's just a little short on fun/active abilities!

----------


## Ilerien

My sincere gratitude for the reviews! :)




> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Domain Spells: The only one that I think would be a great addition here would be Mirror Image.  it seems to fit into the idea of it all very well.
> 
> *Uncanny Insight* - An interesting ability, although not for the feint of heart or newer player.  I could see this being a real time suck for a player who doesn't know the cleric spell list really well.  Also, it could be a gigantic pain over several sessions to remember all the spells that have been cast before.  I think one of the biggest impacts of this is that I would never have to prepare revivify, I cna just switch out to it in case someone dies.  That alone makes this ability worth it.  That being said, if you wanted to simplify this you could say.  "Once per day, you can cast a spell on your cleric spell list that you don't have prepared, this still uses a spell slot like normal."  Doing something like this means I don't have to track the spells I've already cast.


*Spoiler: Thoughts*
Show

Mirror image fits definitely better than enhance ability: the reason it isn't there at the time of this post is the subclass had gone through a couple of tweak cycles before I posted it, and, apparently, I forgot to review the 2nd level spell that isn't augury. Nice catch, thank you!

As for Uncanny Insight, the underlying intent of this feature is to show that this cleric somehow knows exactly what they want to cast in advance, similar to Divination wizard. But I do indeed see the cumbersome part of tracking what spells have been used after the last long rest and what haven't. How about leaving a preparation slot open? Or giving it an additional one.
The spontaneity is there either way (as it is with your suggestion as well), so the feature would be indeed a bit unfriendly to newbies, but I can live with that. A player would probably have several go-to spell options to use with this feature.




> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Serendipity Domain
> 
> Blurb & spell list - very cool, concise and thematic. 
> 
> Implements of Serendipity - nice flavour that also allows for some fun out of combat things to happen - a nice feature. 
> 
> ...


*Spoiler: Thoughts*
Show

Scaling Uncanny Insight at level 8 is a bit weird, but what all official cleric subclasses get at 8th level is a subclass feature, it's just a bonus to spellcasting or a bonus to weapon attacks. It's just TCE essentially folded it into a main class feature. I still would have preferred them to leave this difference in place at least as different damage types for blessed strikes. Still, technically it's a subclass feature.

Twist Fate scales nicely with CD. Decoupling it from CD would require imposing some other artificial per rest limit, and, for example, half PB times per short rest or PB times per long rest feel too powerful for a single level dip into cleric. Though the idea is worthy of consideration, I'll dwell on it. :)

I wanted this subclass to be an ultimate information-gatherer with this divine vibe, and we have spells that allow to ask questions and get answers, so why not get rid of this pesky restriction? Maybe I'll even drop the upcast requirement, just disallow ritual casting in this case.
Also, divinations are kind of niche, so I wanted to present something else to be universally useable. d8 might be too much indeed, I had my doubts at the moment of writing and I'm still undecided.

Trivially, Fortune's Favored would be used to reroll a damage or a healing die, but let me present some examples:Wish. Reduce the risk of not being able to cast it ever again from 1/3 to 1/9? Yes, please. Also, a spell you duplicate using wish might have a table of effects.Blink. The ability to influence blinking in or out is good. Same deal with mirror image, if I'm to heed esteemed *nickl_2000*'s advice.Reincarnate! :D

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## nickl_2000

> Coinslinger
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Coinslinger - should probably say electrum _or_ gold piece rather than and. Is the "additional damage" in addition to anything, (ie a base damage of 1 for a coin) or is it just explaining that the damage die changes depending on the coin type?
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking a look and all the comments, it really helps.

I tightened up the wording on Coinslinger.  The idea is that you are doing the coin damage instead of the 1 from the throw or 1d4 from the sling.  So, hopefully it is clear now.

Magical Coins - I used your wording, thanks!  Also tightened up the other to make it replace a single attack instead of the entire attack action.

Potent Coinshot - You can burn all your short rest resources to do 8d10 damage to multiple targets, but we are a level 10 at this point.  A caster has already been dropping 8d6 fireballs for 5 levels.  I don't think the damage is out of line if you are looking to burn everything in a single round.  Do you think the damage needs a save for half?  I chose not to simply for the sake of keeping the game moving, but I could see it being to powerful. 

Empowered Coinshot - You are an 18th level fighter.  Blade of Disaster deals 4d12 damage a round, Dark Star deals 8d10 damage a round for 10 rounds, Incendiary Cloud 10d8 per round, Meteor Swarm for 20d6 fire 20d6 bludgeoning.  I actually don't think the damage is out of bounds with what a caster can do, especially if you are burning all your short rest resources in a single round.

It does give only 2, but the damage is pretty high for level 3 and the area effects can be really, really good in the right party.  Even after you have used them up, you are still a fighter with heavy armor prof, ranged attacks, and doing some real damage.  I'm not overly concerned about it to be honest.

----------


## tzurk

@Ilerien, I'm a big fan of removing the upcasting component for fail-free divination spells. Using a spell slot to cast it rather than doing so as a ritual is a big enough resource cost for the guaranteed clarity IMO. I feel like the d6 boost is probably enough to last the career of the Serindipity cleric too and a nice boost for a luck-based class, but again could be wrong there. I just had a thought that as an alternate you could roll 2d4 and take the highest, but a d6 probably feels better at the table. 

I can see the reasoning behind keeping Twist Fate & Uncanny Insight as they are. I'm not sure I agree that Twist Fate would be too much for a dip though if it got pushed to prof bonus per long rest, mostly because it cannot "cancel" advantage or disadvantage or be used like Lucky to turn disadvantage into triple advantage - it is really just "another go" at whatever you were doing, complete with the conditions that you were doing it in. 

I guess a cheesiest-case scenario would be something like a GWM Vengeance Paladin attacking at advantage through their CD using it to "double" crit-fish on their attack rolls, but at that point if they're investing 13 into Wisdom to multiclass they're breaking away from the 15/8/15/8/8/15 build most "optimal" pallys gun for, so there's an inherent trade-off. I suppose a BM or Samurai fighter could do it better/in a less MAD way. Again, maybe you're right on the power level, and the Uncanny Insight scaling at level 8 is less of an anomaly than it feels - I just can't think of another Cleric that gets something at 8 besides Potent Spellcasting/Divine Strike.

@nickl

You are probably right about the damage being fine - I don't think that saves for half need to be a thing for the subclass. I was just trying to map out in my head the damage potential, knowing that casters at that level can do pretty much whatever they want. I think the choices are fun and varied enough that you'd rarely have a fighter spam the same coin over and over. 

I think the way Magical Coins is worded now would limit it to one coin per attack action - maybe it should say "replace one or more attacks"? Hahaha - sorry for the pedantry! or maybe steal the wording from Shove which is mechanically similar: "If youre able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this Attack replaces one of them."

Fair enough on not giving a BA slingshot, it's not like the fighter chassis is weak. I guess it is similar to a low-level warlock only getting 1/2 spells per short rest, and you pretty quickly overtake them on "amount of times I get to do cool stuff".

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## Ilerien

> @Ilerien, I'm a big fan of removing the upcasting component for fail-free divination spells. Using a spell slot to cast it rather than doing so as a ritual is a big enough resource cost for the guaranteed clarity IMO. I feel like the d6 boost is probably enough to last the career of the Serindipity cleric too and a nice boost for a luck-based class, but again could be wrong there. I just had a thought that as an alternate you could roll 2d4 and take the highest, but a d6 probably feels better at the table.


I thought of this ersatz advantage for d4, but 2 rolls instead of one might impact pace of the game a bit (especially with upcast bless or bane), so decided in favor of improved die. d6 is probably good enough.


> I can see the reasoning behind keeping Twist Fate & Uncanny Insight as they are. I'm not sure I agree that Twist Fate would be too much for a dip though if it got pushed to prof bonus per long rest, mostly because it cannot "cancel" advantage or disadvantage or be used like Lucky to turn disadvantage into triple advantage - it is really just "another go" at whatever you were doing, complete with the conditions that you were doing it in.


You're probably correct that it isn't all that powerful, but if we tie switching a prepared spell to CD, we might end up with a cleric who shuffles through their entire spell list with ease. I guess nerfing it as per nickl_2000's suggestion (cast any cleric spell you can prepare, but still use a spell slot) would balance the scales.


> I guess a cheesiest-case scenario would be something like a GWM Vengeance Paladin attacking at advantage through their CD using it to "double" crit-fish on their attack rolls, but at that point if they're investing 13 into Wisdom to multiclass they're breaking away from the 15/8/15/8/8/15 build most "optimal" pallys gun for, so there's an inherent trade-off. I suppose a BM or Samurai fighter could do it better/in a less MAD way. Again, maybe you're right on the power level, and the Uncanny Insight scaling at level 8 is less of an anomaly than it feels - I just can't think of another Cleric that gets something at 8 besides Potent Spellcasting/Divine Strike.


The cheesiest-case scenario would be a spellcaster with elven accuracy fishing for crits with some high-level spell that uses an attack roll. :)

Anyway, I made several changes to straighten the subclass. Still undecided on Twist Fate/Uncanny Insight juxtaposition, will think about it some more when my schedule allows. Thanks for the advice! :)

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## nickl_2000

> @nickl
> 
> I think the way Magical Coins is worded now would limit it to one coin per attack action - maybe it should say "replace one or more attacks"? Hahaha - sorry for the pedantry! or maybe steal the wording from Shove which is mechanically similar: "If youre able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this Attack replaces one of them."


Tightened up the wording again "any time you make an attack as part of an attack action, you may replace one or more of the attacks with throwing a magical coin"

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## MoleMage

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...7#post25395527

Wow that voting does sneak up on me every time. I guess I won't complete an entry once more around but that's okay. Good luck to all the entrants!

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## nickl_2000

Only 2 voters so far, go out there and vote!

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## MoleMage

> Alrighty it is time to call the thread, so here's where we landed in the end:
> 
> Our third place winner, with 9 points earned, Oerlaf's *Gentleman of Fortune* Roguish Archetype. Whether you're an explorer, a pirate, or a privateer, this class lets you live the hey-day of maritime fiction!
> 
> In second place, with 10 points earned, nickl_2000's *Coinslinger* Martial Archetype. Finally, a reason to include electrum pieces in your game world!
> 
> Finally first place, with 13 points earned, goes to Ilerien's *Serendipity Domain*! Tug on the strings of luck! See the future! Access _wish_ as a cleric spell!
> 
> Thanks everyone who contributed, this contest's continued thriving input is heartwarming to see.
> ...


Wow I really need to update the first post again I'm like three contests behind. Anyway, voting is called, and the new submission thread will be up soon!

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## nickl_2000

Congrats on the great entries all, looking forward to some major refining!

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## MoleMage

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...8#post25410588

New thread just landed!

EDIT: I also updated the initial post to the current contest. If anyone tracks the frequency statistics I tally or wants to look up the last three winners, you actually _can_ now.

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## MoleMage

I am back in it! Finally got a handle on my life and myself (or at least one of those two), so I knocked together a variant Berserker. It's probably a little rough, but I'll try to revise it (unless I lose my handle, in which case I'll hope I did okay the first time). Looking forward to the new Beast Master and new Four Elements as well as everything else yet to come.

----------


## Crim the Cold

I have a question about the scope of Refine Mayhem.

What if I think a subclass would fit better reworked for another character class? Is that still within scope or out of it?

----------


## Snowben Gaming

Back at it.

The Way of the Elements Monk is for the most part done. It's still got a few things left to do, but everything that is unfinished are just options so as there is at least one choice for everything, you should be able to tell how the unfinished stuff should work so any early thoughts would be very much appreciated.

As a note: I made the rework with my homebrew world in mind, which has 6 elements total: fire, earth, metal, water, wood & air. You could very easily just remove the wood and metal stuff though and it'd work perfectly fine... I think.

This whole thing got out of hand quite fast as I was planning. I might have done too much in a single subclass lol. I'm not even sure if what I've made is cohesive anymore. oops

So yeah, I have no idea if this actually flows well or if the features are balanced compared to each other, but I've got 5 weeks to get it fully done so even if it isn't there yet, I've got time.

I'll get on reviews as soon as I'm finished (or before if I get stuck (looking at you metal elemental strike)).

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## Snowben Gaming

> I have a question about the scope of Refine Mayhem.
> 
> What if I think a subclass would fit better reworked for another character class? Is that still within scope or out of it?


I can't speak officially but I would say that's perfectly ok!

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## nickl_2000

> I have a question about the scope of Refine Mayhem.
> 
> What if I think a subclass would fit better reworked for another character class? Is that still within scope or out of it?


Like an arcane archer modified to be an artificer subclass?  I don't run the contest,  but sounds legit to me and we tend to be fairly liberal when it comes to those rules.

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## tzurk

Gonna look at doing a revised Champion fighter for this contest. 

Ideas: 

Fighting Styles "level up" as you gain features - a popular one online - probably one at 3 to go along expanded crit and another one at 10 
Deal Str/Dex mod damage when you miss? 
Expand Remarkable Athlete to actually be meaningful

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## MoleMage

> I have a question about the scope of Refine Mayhem.
> 
> What if I think a subclass would fit better reworked for another character class? Is that still within scope or out of it?


That's fine with me. The subclass is still getting rewritten, after all.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

Seriously thinking of refining the Eldritch Knight, probably recicling the mechanics of another class of mine that should fit the role... Let's see if I can tie all together in something original enough!

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## tzurk

Champion draft is up in the submission thread. Open to any and all feedback at this stage - and every stage up until voting!

I've always been attracted to the "fighting man" archetype in fantasy fiction as a sort of everyman proxy for the reader in a world of wizards and fantastic beasts. Guy with sword vs the world, leave the fancy tricks at the door. 

Champion seems like it was designed with this concept in mind, but was also intended to create the easiest subclass to pick up and play for the total beginner to TTRGs. With no meaningful decision points or added mechanical complexity and its defining feature (the expanded crit range) only triggering an additional 5% of the time, it can come off a little bland and underwhelming. 

I have never seen anyone play a Champion in real life, and only heard it discussed as a 3-level dip for critfishing builds online. In this revision, I want to keep the subclass mechanically simple (compared to e.g. maneuvers of a Battle Master, spells of an Eldritch Knight) but create enough interest and power in the features to make it an attractive enough fighter archetype to stand on its own for a monoclassed player.  

Things are a bit all over the place atm and probably overtuned in general, but I'll polish it up over the coming weeks. 

I'm not sure if it makes sense to keep Improved Critical but it's such an iconic feature of the subclass that I'm finding it's hard to call any build that removes it still a "Champion"...

thoughts - 

- add Tasha's fighting styles to signature FS
- maybe swap levels of signature weapon & signature FS, give back second fighting style @ 10
- maybe cap Indomitable = Legendary Resistance at 1/long rest

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## sengmeng

Did a weird take on Soulknife: the official one is a rogue subclass, and I... disagree. Now it's available in a slightly different version to fighter, monk, and rogue, and stacks with itself if you multiclass and take it in more than one of those classes.

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## tzurk

1st round of feedback, starting from the bottom up - 

*sengmeng's Soul Knife* - a really interesting concept, never seen anything like this before. For the purpose of collecting my thoughts, the subclass feature levels for the 3 classes are:

Fighter: 3, 7, 10, 15, 18

Monk: 3, 6, 11, 17

Rogue: 3, 9, 13, 17 

Mind Blade: everybody gets this at 3rd level, along with their unique way to get more out of their mind blades. 1d8 psychic finesse is all good. Turning a BA (or really two BAs, to resummon the blade next turn) into a crit is an interesting mechanic, which would usually benefit a rogue much more than the other two due to sneak attack. The monk-only benefit seems great up until 11th level when their martial arts die catches up, and at/after 17 it takes a backward step. Fighter benefit seems ok, being able to attack, BA auto-crit, action surge and get the blade back to auto-crit again on the next turn without having to wait a turn to resummon. Rogue benefit seems a bit restrictive - is it a maximum once per combat trigger, or do I not understand the surprise rules?

Meditation - monks get it at 6, fighters at 7, rogues not til 9 (!). The way the description reads, I think a monk/fighter or monk/rogue or rogue/fighter would also get it at 6, as it's the second time they get a soul knife feature - is that right? 

I didn't read through all of these to check for balance; will try and do that at a later stage. I like the player agency you offer through the sheer variety of options. Arsenal of the Mind - I would just change the damage to 1d12 rather than 1d8+1d4. I read Force Shield twice and I'm still not sure exactly how it should work. 

Improved Mind Blade - ah, changing the die size like I said above won't work. Monks get it at 11, just in time to stay relevant ahead of their martial arts die (nice). Fighters at 10, rogues at 13. Fighters get an extra boost @ 18. Why 2d6 over 1d12 this time? 

No feature for monk/rogue 17 or fighter 15?  

Psychic Bladestorm - if I read it right this encourages a monk/rogue multiclass but has no benefit for a fighter - is that right? Unless you're thinking fighter 11+ for 3 attacks for 3 potential sneak attack triggers. Oh wait - action surge. So something like Fighter 3/monk 5/rogue x looks good for potentially 4 sneak attacks a turn, plus one as a BA with a ki point.

A really crazy and interesting concept that I'm not sure i can imagine fully yet but does seem to have some well thought out depth and synergy to it. Cool is the word that first comes to mind. 


*MoleMage's Berserker*

Wakened Fury - good looking mechanic, for ease of reading should it come below Frenzy?

Frenzy - a fun way to reimagine the original feature - BIG damage barb, woo! Do I just lose my spent rage if I miss? That sucks. Could you instead only lose it if you make the hit? (is 2d12 enough damage to spend a whole rage on?)

Mindless Rage - all goods

Indomitable - just for defense against being grappled by medium/small creatures, not for offense in grappling dragons? If you end your turn and you are stunned - does this still consume a use of rage (precious resource for this barb)? Tricky wording for the second paragraph but it's all clear. 

Intimidation Stance - another option to weaponise BA for when you dont want to frenzy. What's the DC if you have never hit them? How do I remember the damage if I hit them three rounds ago and then got pushed into another baddie? 

Retaliation - this is an interesting way to eke some extra use out of your subclass features, but I think I prefer the original version of just giving a "free" reaction attack for being hit just for its consistency - doubling up on Frenzy could potentially make for some fun nova turns at the cost of an expensive resource (7 rages per day at this point including the 2 you get back from Wakened Fury), and frightened is a super powerful condition if you've got casters or a BM or something in your party to force some saving throws at disadv. Having said that I don't necessarily think it's OP, just different. 

Will have to do the Elements monk and Beastmaster at a later stage. Good stuff everyone, these are fun to read!

----------


## sengmeng

> 1st round of feedback, starting from the bottom up - 
> 
> *sengmeng's Soul Knife* - a really interesting concept, never seen anything like this before. For the purpose of collecting my thoughts, the subclass feature levels for the 3 classes are:
> 
> Fighter: 3, 7, 10, 15, 18
> 
> Monk: 3, 6, 11, 17
> 
> Rogue: 3, 9, 13, 17 
> ...


Hey, thanks! That's some pretty good feedback, I will definitely consider some adjustments. It was intentional to make combat interesting with the careful use of action economy via the manifest/collapse bonus action mechanic.

To clarify: It's easy to miss, but the fourth upgrade is a second meditation, just like the fifth is a second boost to damage, thrown range, and crit "range" as part of the "Improved Mind Blade" description. I didn't have another name for those second upgrades, so I didn't give them their own paragraphs. As far as the damage die going to 2d6 versus 1d12, since it's possible to get the great weapon fighting style on this character concept, I went with the better damage die for it.

Also, I believe the only way to actually get this subclass six times is fighter 10/Monk 6/ Rogue 3, at 19th level (and then if you don't take fighter for the last level I have to assume there's something wrong with you). So the benefits of Psychic Bladestorm are to reflect the optimal use of that exact build, granting you things to use your ki on, ways to get extra sneak attack, and the fighter gets nothing because it's actually got everything it needs in its base form to help create this one round nova of death: action surge. And it is correct usually that the rogue would only get one free manifest per combat, same for the fighter until 17th level.

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## Snowben Gaming

Have a quick review:

*Spoiler: Path of the Berserker Revised*
Show



Overall, I think this is very well made and that it achieves your aims excellently. I might actually offer this to my players instead of original berserker tbh.

*Wakened Fury*
A rage equivalent of Arcane/Natural Recovery is pretty sweet, especially useful as rage is also a nova resources thanks to frenzy

*Frenzy*
I'd do some maths for this, but it'd be completely arbitrary and with no real baseline, so I'm just gonna judge this without and leave the maths to someone more experienced. 
I like this, its a lot of damage but its not like you can just do this every turn. I really like having to expend uses of rage to do it as it provides an alternative sacrifice to gaining exhaustion, as per your intentions.

*Mindless Rage*
Not much to say here really, it was a decent feature in the original berserker, its a decent feature here.

*Indomitable*
A useful addition as I always thought that level 10 for the original berserker was really bad, so even if you have fixed Intimidating Presence with Intimidation Stance, this is still a welcome addition. I'm a bit curious as to why you can have your speed reduced _by_ an amount but not _to_ an amount. May I ask why? Having just read the examples for the ways your speed can be reduced, I think I get it, but I'd still like to hear the thought process behind it anyways.

*Intimidation Stance*
The original berserker's Intimidating Presence but as a bonus action and with different DC. The bonus action makes sense as you're gonna be attacking with your actions as a barbarian. The DC calculation is cool, but raises the question: can you use this on a creature you haven't hit yet?

*Retaliation*
I approve of adding the option to Intimidation Stance (and love the flavour for it), but I'm not sure about replacing the basic attack with Frenzy as you could've run out of uses. What about offering a basic attack as an alternative option to Frenzy or Intimidation Stance?



Champion & Soulknife will take me a bit longer to do as I want to read through all the options, so I'll probably get them done after I finish my entry.

----------


## nickl_2000

My first draft of the Artificer Alchemist re-write is out there.  Feel free to comment if you have time.  I will touch it up a little bit more in the next few days and then get my own reviews out there for others.

----------


## MoleMage

Thanks for the feedback! I will reply and return the favor once I have a bit of free time.

----------


## tzurk

> Hey, thanks! That's some pretty good feedback, I will definitely consider some adjustments. It was intentional to make combat interesting with the careful use of action economy via the manifest/collapse bonus action mechanic.
> 
> To clarify: It's easy to miss, but the fourth upgrade is a second meditation, just like the fifth is a second boost to damage, thrown range, and crit "range" as part of the "Improved Mind Blade" description. I didn't have another name for those second upgrades, so I didn't give them their own paragraphs. As far as the damage die going to 2d6 versus 1d12, since it's possible to get the great weapon fighting style on this character concept, I went with the better damage die for it.
> 
> Also, I believe the only way to actually get this subclass six times is fighter 10/Monk 6/ Rogue 3, at 19th level (and then if you don't take fighter for the last level I have to assume there's something wrong with you). So the benefits of Psychic Bladestorm are to reflect the optimal use of that exact build, granting you things to use your ki on, ways to get extra sneak attack, and the fighter gets nothing because it's actually got everything it needs in its base form to help create this one round nova of death: action surge. And it is correct usually that the rogue would only get one free manifest per combat, same for the fighter until 17th level.


Ahh right, I see the second Meditation feature now. Makes sense to me. For 2d6 v 1d12, my thinking was that if you can choose when to crit, you might want the bigger damage dice for more oomph. Cool to see how the triple multiclass comes together for the final feature! 

Also - should the rogue maybe get thrown a bone w/ their 3rd level bonus since they have to wait til 9 for their second feature? Not too sure off the top of my head, but something that can trigger more than 1/combat? Maybe interacting with cunning action somehow - like after taking the disengage or aim BAs

Feedback round 2
*
Snowben Gaming's Elements Monk
*
I love the OG 4 elements and it has a soft spot in my heart as the first character I ever played in 5e was one. Notoriously underperforming and often revised so let's see how this one goes!

Elemental Initiate - cool, fluffy, useful. Like it. 

Elemental Strike - powerful feature at this level as most classes dont get the "counts as magical damage" ability til 6. The riders are cool and thematic and seem relatively balanced. Should Wood be temp HP rather than a real heal? 1 ki is not a huge investment and I'm not too sure what the precedent is for monks but is there a way you can add a base effect and then the rider - maybe + Wis mod or a 1d4 to the elemental damage, then the DC with potential effect after? Maybe that swings it too hard the other way - i am just personally always a bit iffy about features that cost limited resources to potentially do nothing 

Elemental Attunements - spellcasting with Ki. Feels weird for this to come at 6! Could this potentially come at 3, and you separate the riders section of Elemental Strike into a separate ability that comes at level 6? It opens you up to more spellcasting earlier on and lets you keep fiery punches too. 

Elemental Flurry - thats a nice power boost and depending on the attunement spell lists could open up some interesting combos. I am a biiiig fan of cast and slash in the same turn - just feels nice. 

Elemental Avatar - the Investiture spells are awesome and it's nice to see them incentivised. Could something be added at the end of this feature to allow you to use the Elemental Flurry BA when you activate one of these spells so that it doesn't feel like you "waste" a whole turn buffing up?  

*Oerlaf*, I might come back to your BM ranger when the features are filled out a bit more! Exciting start though. Viper, fetch! 
*
nickl_2000's Alchemist*

Yeeeeeah buddy, Artificers are awesome, and I feel like artillerist/armorer/battle smith all nail their briefs but the official alchemist just misses the mark (1 elixer per day? blahhh...)  so let's see what we've got! 

Spell list feels good. I could see what WOTC were going for by giving them healing spells but it felt a bit hamfisted. 

Alchemical Mixes - feels very alchemisty to mix potions and hurl them in battle. A good spread of effects. Would love to see a few more battlefield controlly ones, something like a mini-Grease or Fog Cloud type ability. 

Create Potions - yeeeahh, more potions! It's probably a full action to drink the potion as per DMG or wherever those roles are but is that the intention here as well? Can you bottle a damage spell and throw it at the enemy?

Quick Alchemy - suddenly 5 potions per short rest. Would feel like a great milestone for this subclass. Love the free alchemy jug too - fluffy and a great magic item that sadly sometimes get pushed back for more +1s...

Alchemy Mastery - interesting capstone. Not having to prepare the potion spell seems great and making it an action means you can rip an emergency whatever into a bottle and chug it next turn or pass it to the fighter. 

Overall seems really great man. A much more active "alchemist" than the official one!

----------


## Snowben Gaming

> *
> Snowben Gaming's Elements Monk
> *
> I love the OG 4 elements and it has a soft spot in my heart as the first character I ever played in 5e was one. Notoriously underperforming and often revised so let's see how this one goes!
> 
> Elemental Initiate - cool, fluffy, useful. Like it. 
> 
> Elemental Strike - powerful feature at this level as most classes dont get the "counts as magical damage" ability til 6. The riders are cool and thematic and seem relatively balanced. Should Wood be temp HP rather than a real heal? 1 ki is not a huge investment and I'm not too sure what the precedent is for monks but is there a way you can add a base effect and then the rider - maybe + Wis mod or a 1d4 to the elemental damage, then the DC with potential effect after? Maybe that swings it too hard the other way - i am just personally always a bit iffy about features that cost limited resources to potentially do nothing
> 
> Elemental Attunements - spellcasting with Ki. Feels weird for this to come at 6! Could this potentially come at 3, and you separate the riders section of Elemental Strike into a separate ability that comes at level 6? It opens you up to more spellcasting earlier on and lets you keep fiery punches too.


So I completely forgot monks get magic physical damage for their punches at level 6 when I wrote this which is why I gave Elemental Strike at 3rd. And yeah, the spells would make more sense to come at 3rd. So I might just swap the two features entirely and slightly buff Elemental Strike (make the riders slightly stronger and add some bonus damage before the save as per your suggestion) as you get it later.
As for Wood being temp HP, I will say that makes much more sense and will be implemented.




> Elemental Flurry - thats a nice power boost and depending on the attunement spell lists could open up some interesting combos. I am a biiiig fan of cast and slash in the same turn - just feels nice.
> 
> Elemental Avatar - the Investiture spells are awesome and it's nice to see them incentivised. Could something be added at the end of this feature to allow you to use the Elemental Flurry BA when you activate one of these spells so that it doesn't feel like you "waste" a whole turn buffing up?


Yeah, I'm definitely gonna let you flurry when you use these. I thought I already had tbh, but then I realised it only triggers for Attunement spells as these ones don't use ki.

Thanks for the feedback!

I'll get on feedback for yours when I've finished mine.

----------


## nickl_2000

> nickl_2000's Alchemist[/B]
> 
> Yeeeeeah buddy, Artificers are awesome, and I feel like artillerist/armorer/battle smith all nail their briefs but the official alchemist just misses the mark (1 elixer per day? blahhh...)  so let's see what we've got! 
> 
> Spell list feels good. I could see what WOTC were going for by giving them healing spells but it felt a bit hamfisted. 
> 
> Alchemical Mixes - feels very alchemisty to mix potions and hurl them in battle. A good spread of effects. Would love to see a few more battlefield controlly ones, something like a mini-Grease or Fog Cloud type ability. 
> 
> Create Potions - yeeeahh, more potions! It's probably a full action to drink the potion as per DMG or wherever those roles are but is that the intention here as well? Can you bottle a damage spell and throw it at the enemy?
> ...


Thanks, I always liked the UA version of the alchemist better than the official anyway so I'm trying to get back there :)  I really appreciate the comments, both good and bad.

I will add a few more alchemical mixes as I think of them and see if they feel balanced.  In general I've focused mostly on you throw it at them and hit them and something cool happens.  But there is a place for things like that, I will see what I can come up with.

For create potions I wanted to limit it to
1) Alchemist spells (so prepared, learned through a feat, or domain spells)
2) Spells that require an action or a bonus action to cast (i.e. not reaction or casting time of 1 minute).
3) Target Self without a range or touch on a creature

So, that gives me: Alter Self, Ashardalon's Stride, Blink, Blur, Cure Wounds, Darkvision, Detect Magic, Disguise Else, Enhance Ability, Expeditious Retreat, False Life, Fly, Freedom of Movement, Greater Restoration, Invisibility, Jump, Lesser Restoration, Longstrider, Protection from Energy, Protection from Poison, Revivify, See Invisibility, Skill Empowerment, Spider Climb, and Stone skin.

Overall, this is a pretty decent list that gives lots of options and buffs, especially when you can do it concentration free.  However, it avoids some of the issues with casting on someone else.  I do with there was a good way to also include Polymorph, Enlarge/Reduce, and Levitate, but I think the set here is good enough without it being overpowered.


For Quick Alchemy the jug is just to perfect for an alchemist and artificers get the ability to make their own magic items.  It was just to fitting and fun to leave out and the overall impact on power is low whereas the fun value is very high in the hands of the right player.



EDIT: Added 3 more potions to give a little more control options.  I do worry about the sneezing powder being to powerful.  Removing a creatures action with your bonus action may be broken, but that is also why you have to hit with an attack and they can end it with a Con save.

*Smoke Powder* - You pull out and throw a vial of smoke powder at a space within 60 feet.  All spaces within a 10 foot radius are obscured in dark black smoke.  This area counts as Heavily Obscured.  The smoke remains for 1 minute unless it is dispersed by a moderate wind or a spell.

*Bottled Tar* - When this vial impacts a space within 60 feet of it, it explodes into an area of sticky tar.  All spaces within a 10 foot radius are covered in tar.  A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves.

*Sneezing Powder* - You throw an abrasive white powder at a creature, causing it to burst around them, filling their lungs.  For the next minute, the creature spends its action sneezing and coughing.  At the end of each of its turns, the creature makes a constitution saving throw against your spell DC.  On success, the spell ends.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

So, I added my entry, a refined Eldritch Knight or, as I call it, the triumph of laziness. This is because I mainly copied the features of another class of mine which, in my defense, I wrote precisely because I did not like the original Eldritch Knight at all. In any case, everything was so in tune with the contest that I couldn't help but propose it!

I also gave a quick reading of the other subclasses, and I found them all very interesting.




> *Create Potions*
> At level 5, you can use your alchemist's tools to brew magical potions.  You may spend a minute...


I like expecially the feature of nickl_2000's Alchemist that allows to create potions, mainly because I created a similar one some time ago. I repost it below, maybe it can be of inspiration!




> *Brewing [POTION]s*
> 
> At XXth level you learn to distill your magical powers into special potions called [POTION]s. You can cast a [CLASS NAME] spell that targets only one creature _(← this is the same wording of the metamagic option Twinned Spell)_ into a vial or small bottle filled with water. The spell has no effect, other than changing the look and taste of the fluid into something of your choice _(← this is just flavor)_ and being stored in it.
> Any creature can drink the [POTION] using the same action needed to cast the spell _(← or an action, if you limit this feature only to action spells...)_ and get its effects as if it were the target. If the spell has a range of Self but can affect another single creature _(← E.G. Vampiric Touch)_, you choose when you create the [POTION] whether the drinker will be treated as the caster or the target. You are considered the caster in all other cases. If the spell requires Concentration, the caster must either start to keep it or let the spell vanish with no effect. The spell automatically passes any attack roll against the drinker and always uses your slot level, spell save DC, and spellcasting ability. Furthermore, if the creature is unaware of the real contents of the [POTION] or that you brewed it, it may not realize that it was affected by it or that it was your doing. The spell is stored inside the [POTION] until it is drunk, you finish a long rest, or someone empties the container. After that, the container can be reused.
> You can have a number of brewed [POTION]s up to your [SPELL ABILITY SCORE] modifier. If you try to brew more [POTION]s, the spell is expended without effect.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

I see a lot of interesting stuff. 

I have a comment about the Champion and Assassin updates. 

Champions improved fighting styles-Blindfighting can be advantage on all melee attacks by closing your eyes. Was that intended?

Assassinates fluff doesnt exactly match the mechanics and is a lot more attractive as a 3 level dip besides.

----------


## tzurk

@Snowben, good stuff! Glad to hear the Investiture spells will come with extra punch and looking forward to seeing what you come up with for the spell lists. 

@nickl, your reasoning on create potions makes sense to me. I guess these are more utility/buff spells, and the mixes are more offensive, and that strikes a neat balance. If you're worried about the sneezing powder, maybe make the save at the start of the turn so there's a chance for it to do nothing, or end automatically after a round - trading one BA for one opponent's whole action is a pretty good trade. could even be a little 10 foot square/5 ft radius circle there to potentially grab a few baddies at once. 

@BerzerkerUnit, it wasn't what I had in mind when I wrote it, but I did realise pretty quickly it could be (ab)used that way. Then I thought, that's not too bad, because if your eyes are closed you're blinded and enemies will have advantage too - like Reckless Attack coming 8 levels later. But then I realised, you can just say you open your eyes back up at the end of your turn. So yeah, it will need to be changed, just struggling for inspiration on that one at the moment! 

Feedback round 3 

*Old Harry's Eldritch Knight*

Martial Magic - everything going to touch gives a cool "casting through fighting" vibe. if I pick up fireball later on, does it still have a 20 foot radius centred on my target? 

Spellcasting - giving access to any spells with attack rolls make sense, but it is a bit trickily worded. Can I pick Summon Undead as long as I use the skeletal option because he makes a spell attack roll in his stat block?

Spellcasting Focus is a neat way to work around the S,V, M but not S, V or whatever the silly war caster tax thing is for gishes. 

Battle Surge makes sense if youre casting a lot of fireballs (answers my first question I guess) in combat but you have hardly any spell slots at this level (or ever, really) as a 1/3 caster. As a player I'd honestly much rather have the original EK's cantrip + attack than this feature. 

Eldritch Strike - This is kind of cool, similar to the original feature without requiring an additional turn of setup. Maybe slightly weaker though between its limited uses and the fact that it can only affect a single target where between all a fighter's extra attacks and action surge, the OG EK could hit half a dozen targets at a time and then blast them next turn. Is there any reason that this can't be used with a ranged weapon as well? Does the attack roll deal damage as well, or it just disadvantage on the save? 

Arcane Riposte - the way I read this is it basically adds an attack roll to shield or counter spell - a cool thematic feature & a mechanical boost. Again though, does it need to be limited to a melee weapon?

Improved Eldritch Strike - I guess this answers my question about whether Eldritch Strike damages the target. Might not be enough oomph for an 18th level capstone feature, especially given the aforementioned difficulties of the redone feature - although I guess it is pretty much the same effect as the original feature of cast spell + one slash.

Overall, I think you've made some cool thematic changes to develop a more "cast spells with sword" style of gish which I love, but I'm not sure the power level is there compared to the OG EK, and the exclusion of archers feels a bit restrictive (and Arcane Archer still sucks!). 

*Twelvetrees' Assassin*

Bonus profs - cool and thematic. I think that poisons are massively under-utilised in 5e and rogues miss out because of it. Would love to see some additional boosts to poisoned weapons - last x amount of attacks instead of one, etc, but might be too many features to squeeze in at 3. 

Assassinate - thank you for taking the surprised condition out of this, and making it a sweet reliable first-turn boost. It saves all the hassle of sneaking ahead and rolling checks and planning out encounters that can slow down the game and cause party tension. 

Infiltration Expertise makes sense from an RP perspective and could lead to some pretty cool shenanigans. Very DM/campaign dependent benefit; but then you get an awesome level 3 boost that will last you for a while. I guess that seems about right to me?

Exfiltration Expertise has a cool name and a great effect. Love team buffs. It might be a bit too strong in the right party - think taunt mechanics from ancestral guardians/cavaliers and/or reaction attacks from PAM or BM fighters, but really not sure how to gauge this. 60 feet is such a huge range that a melee rogue will often be enough to allow the backline wizard to get out of dodge too. 

Death Strike - auto crit, so quadruple damage? Con save is a decent enough caveat for most things - see stunning strikes. Is it a decent enough caveat for 40d6 damage w/ a short sword? Not sure! It is cool though and definitely feel assassin-y...could this be maximised damage instead? 120, similar to average of quad damage, but without the potential for huge swing? 

Glad to see this contest get so much interest!

----------


## Old Harry MTX

Thankyou for your feedbacks!




> Martial Magic - everything going to touch gives a cool "casting through fighting" vibe. if I pick up fireball later on, does it still have a 20 foot radius centred on my target?


Yes! Martial Magic only affects the range of a spell, not the radius! Anyway, I added a text box with some useful indication for the DM to adjust certain spells.




> Spellcasting - giving access to any spells with attack rolls make sense, but it is a bit trickily worded. Can I pick Summon Undead as long as I use the skeletal option because he makes a spell attack roll in his stat block?


Technically not, you can only pick spells that require the caster to make spell attack rolls, so nothing with full weapon attacks (E.G. booming blade) or that has attacks made by conjured creatures or objects.




> Spellcasting Focus is a neat way to work around the S,V, M but not S, V or whatever the silly war caster tax thing is for gishes.


Do you believe me if I tell you that I don't understand what you mean?^^ However, the purpose of this part is to allow the use of a shield.




> Battle Surge makes sense if youre casting a lot of fireballs (answers my first question I guess) in combat but you have hardly any spell slots at this level (or ever, really) as a 1/3 caster. As a player I'd honestly much rather have the original EK's cantrip + attack than this feature.


Good point. Actually, I could just solve it by adding the Eldricth Blast cantrip as a bonus spell at 3rd level: more spell attack rolls, more weapon bond's attacks! It also have the right name, and resemble what the Arcane Trcikster do with Mage Hand...




> Eldritch Strike - This is kind of cool, similar to the original feature without requiring an additional turn of setup. Maybe slightly weaker though between its limited uses and the fact that it can only affect a single target where between all a fighter's extra attacks and action surge, the OG EK could hit half a dozen targets at a time and then blast them next turn. Is there any reason that this can't be used with a ranged weapon as well? Does the attack roll deal damage as well, or it just disadvantage on the save?


To be honest, my goal was to make the subclass as melee as possible, but there's really no reason not to comprehend ranged attacks as well. Actually, I could just remove the melee-only restriction even on the attacks made with Weapon Bond...




> Arcane Riposte - the way I read this is it basically adds an attack roll to shield or counter spell - a cool thematic feature & a mechanical boost. Again though, does it need to be limited to a melee weapon?


Yes, for example, it not works with absorb elements. Again, i would probably remove the restriction to melee-only attacks, although the target of your counterspell will still have to be within touch range.




> Improved Eldritch Strike - I guess this answers my question about whether Eldritch Strike damages the target. Might not be enough oomph for an 18th level capstone feature, especially given the aforementioned difficulties of the redone feature - although I guess it is pretty much the same effect as the original feature of cast spell + one slash.


Yes, nothing more, nothing less.




> Overall, I think you've made some cool thematic changes to develop a more "cast spells with sword" style of gish which I love, but I'm not sure the power level is there compared to the OG EK, and the exclusion of archers feels a bit restrictive (and Arcane Archer still sucks!).


I think that with the addition of Eldritch Blast and the removal of the melee-only restriction I should be able to fix both the power level and the versatility. You are right, this subclass could also be a valid alternative to the Arcane Archer if I change Weapon Bond this way: "While wielding a bonded weapon, you can replace any spell attack roll with a weapon attack roll, if the target is within range of both the original spell and the weapon".

The fact that Eldricth Blast is not in the wizard's spell list makes me a bit sick, but I've seen worse ^^

----------


## Twelvetrees

A couple reviews!

*Spoiler: Champion Fighter, Revised*
Show

*Improved Critical*
No comments here, this is the same.

*Signature Weapon*
I feel like it might be more straightforward to say you can choose one weapon, or unarmed strikes, to be your signature weapon instead of having to have an extra line explaining what you can or cant have in your hand. Admittedly, this might open up more synergy with monk multiclassing, but I dont know if that would be such a bad thing, either.

_Brutish Weapon_
Im a fan. Would it make sense to have the damage type match that of the weapon? It seems a little strange to have a bow do bludgeoning damage on a miss._Defensive Weapon_
At 3rd and 4th level, this is by far the best option, simply because you only have one attack and very little use for a bonus action. It gets less and less attractive the higher in level you go, because of how many more attacks you miss out on making. Unfortunately, I dont have a good solution coming immediately to mind._Distracting Weapon_
This is probably the most powerful of these options. Its a better version of the Battle Masters Commanders Strike, has unlimited uses, and is good for the exact same reason Commanders Strike is good (off-turn rogue sneak attack, another opportunity for a paladin to smite, etc). Its a little swingier because you have to hit for it to trigger, but it will get more reliable as you get more attacks.
Maybe limiting this in some way could help? Maybe you have to forgo an attack to use it or the creature has resistance against your allys attack? Another option could be to switch out the benefit to something like allowing you to Help as a bonus action._Reliable Weapon_
I like this one._Sweeping Attack_
This is also rather strong. Like the Battle Master maneuver of the same name, Id suggest limiting it to one creature next to the original target. Was this intended to apply with ranged weapons as well? It does right now._True Weapon_
Im not sure how to feel about this one. On the one hand, I really like its simplicity and straightforwardness. On the other hand, this stacks really well with the Archery Fighting Style and Sharpshooter.

*Remarkable Athlete*
I think I prefer the original half proficiency modifier version to rolling a d4. Easier to remember and calculate.
I love your changes to the latter half of this feature.

*Fighting Style Expert*
_Archery_
This stacks really well with crits, especially if you have a way to add more dice to your damage. Im not sure itll break anything, but its something to be aware of._Blind Fighting_
This encourages voluntarily blinding your character, which could lead to some cool imagery of a blindfolded fighter whirling through groups of foes, but nearly always-on advantage is too strong in comparison to the other options offered._Defense_
I like that this leans into the passive features of the Champion, but Im not sure its good enough in comparison to many of the other options._Dueling_
I like it._Great Weapon Fighting_
How does this interact with the fighting style? Do you have to choose one or the other? Do they stack?_Interception_
This expands on the fighting style well, but be aware that initiative order will determine how useful it is. Theres going to be a world of difference between using this reaction on the turn after yours versus the turn right before yours._Protection_
This seems decent._Superior Technique_
Yeah, this is good._Thrown Weapon Fighting_
This feels like something that would have been good to have when the Signature Weapon ability was first attained. Now that I think about it, why not have Signature weapon apply to a specific kind of weapon instead of a particular one? The doubling of ranges doesnt seem that impactful._Two Weapon Fighting_
Ooh, this makes two-weapon fighting attractive. This is one of the stronger options, but I think thats fine in this case because its specific to a fighting style that hasnt gotten a lot of love in 5e._Unarmed Fighting_
Not a bad option at all for someone focused on grappling. I like that it encourages the rest of your party to join in an pummel them with unarmed strikes.

*Superior Critical*
Nothing to say here, this hasnt changed.

*Force of Will*
Yep, this is a sensible change.

*Survivor*
No different.


_Overall Impression_
This appears to be a fix to the Champion, because all the changes are new features added on top of the standard features. Let me know if thats a mistaken assumption.
The passive, always on aspects of your additions interact well with the standard features of the Champion and further its simple-to-play design. Im more leery of the plethora of options offered by Signature Weapon and Fighting Style Expert because they add to the complexity of character play, both in leveling up and in decision-making at the table. Not by a lot, admittedly, but Ive certainly played with folks who would find it to be too much. Id lean more towards having more passive options than youve got right now. True Weapon and Brutish Weapon would be good examples of what to aim for, in my opinion.



*Spoiler: Path of the Berserker Revised*
Show


*Goals*
I appreciate this section. It makes it really easy to see what youre trying to do here.

*Wakened Fury*
More rages/frenzies. Okay, I can get behind that. Definitely starts to have an impact on longer adventuring days, but doesnt do much until then.

*Frenzy*
Ohhhh, this is why Wakened Fury matters. This seems underpowered, especially when comparing with a Zealots Divine Fury or a Paladins Divine Smite. Its damage has a bigger spike, but its resource pool is much more limited.
Being able to use more rages is an intriguing mechanic, but I fear itll end up hurting a barbarian player more if they blow through all their rages in a single fight than a paladin doing the same thing with smites. So many of a barbarians features are based around being in a rage that theyre really quite lackluster if theyre tapped.
Is there another resource pool this ability could be tied to? Hit Dice or something? This feature fits really well with your stated design goals, but spending rages to power it feels like too high a cost.

*Mindless Rage*
No changes I can see here.

*Indomitable*
Yes. Yes, please, this is cool. My only complaint is that this uses the exact same name as the fighter feature.

*Intimidation Stance*
Interesting method of generating the save DC. I actually prefer Intimidating Presence to this, if only because it isnt tied to rage and allows players to embody the stereotypical scary barbarian in situations outside of fights.

*Retaliation*
Being able to use Intimidation Stance with this absolutely rocks. Having to use Frenzy instead of being able to make a normal attack doesnt  in fact, it exacerbates the problem of how quickly you can burn through rages. Once youre out, this feature does nothing, which feels bad.


_Overall Impression_
I really wish I was more enthusiastic about this, but consuming rages to power your primary feature hurts, especially since having no rages left turns off every other feature from this subclass. Id struggle to decide between playing this version of the Berserker and the standard version, given the choice.







> Assassinates fluff doesnt exactly match the mechanics and is a lot more attractive as a 3 level dip besides.


Fluff is easy enough to fix. I was more concerned with making the base feature usable than changing the fluff. Would you are at you deadliest in the first few moments of a fight work better?

Can you explain why my change makes Assassin a lot more attractive as a 3 level dip?






> *Twelvetrees' Assassin*
> 
> Bonus profs - cool and thematic. I think that poisons are massively under-utilised in 5e and rogues miss out because of it. Would love to see some additional boosts to poisoned weapons - last x amount of attacks instead of one, etc, but might be too many features to squeeze in at 3.


I can't take any credit here, this feature is exactly the same as the base subclass.




> Assassinate - thank you for taking the surprised condition out of this, and making it a sweet reliable first-turn boost. It saves all the hassle of sneaking ahead and rolling checks and planning out encounters that can slow down the game and cause party tension.


Woo! Working as intended!




> Infiltration Expertise makes sense from an RP perspective and could lead to some pretty cool shenanigans. Very DM/campaign dependent benefit; but then you get an awesome level 3 boost that will last you for a while. I guess that seems about right to me?


Excellent.




> Exfiltration Expertise has a cool name and a great effect. Love team buffs. It might be a bit too strong in the right party - think taunt mechanics from ancestral guardians/cavaliers and/or reaction attacks from PAM or BM fighters, but really not sure how to gauge this. 60 feet is such a huge range that a melee rogue will often be enough to allow the backline wizard to get out of dodge too.


The range on this feature is what I was most unsure about. My intention with this ability was to enable a party to flee or reposition. Reducing the range or imposing a limit on the number of times this can be used are both modifications I can make if this comes across as too strong. I'm not sure it is.

The closest comparison is a Glamour Bard's Mantle of Inspiration, which comes online ten levels earlier and gives temporary hit points to boot.




> Death Strike - auto crit, so quadruple damage? Con save is a decent enough caveat for most things - see stunning strikes. Is it a decent enough caveat for 40d6 damage w/ a short sword? Not sure! It is cool though and definitely feel assassin-y...could this be maximised damage instead? 120, similar to average of quad damage, but without the potential for huge swing?


I didn't change this ability much, just unhooked it from the surprised condition like I did with Assassinate. I'm not worried about damage swings too much. 20d6 will trend heavily towards average. Doubling that will add a little swing, but not enough that I think it'll matter.


Thanks for the feedback!

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## tzurk

@Old Harry - cheers for the clarification! I'd love to see this expanded to work with archers; though I'm not sure how reducing spell ranges to touch will work out there. Spellcasting Focus working with a sword and shield in hand was exactly what I was trying to talk about haha. Eldritch Blast fits the name; I'm not sure if it combo-ing with Weapon Bond is a great idea - e.g. 2d10+2d8 damage - although writing this out just now makes me realise that without Invocation support it probably is fine? The real issue would come through a Warlock multi class to turn that into 2d10+2d8+2*Cha, and then 3d10+3d8+3*Cha at 11, and so on. Not sure if multi classing is on your radar as a homebrewer though. 

@Twelvetrees re: assassin

Man - death strike & bonus profs - shows how much attention I paid to the OG assassin besides the surprise = autocrit feature. Infiltration & Exfiltration work together well in/out of combat I think to complement each other nicely, and really you've managed to fix the glaring problems of the original subclass in a) the hoops you had to jump through to trigger Assassinate and b) that being pretty much all you meaningfully get til your capstone. I'm still not sure if the capstone is still a touch too strong in that it's basically guaranteed 40d6 damage 1/combat, but I imagine most DMs will simply build around that for the boss fights that instantly murdering nearly any single dude actually matters in the long run. 

Mantle of Majesty does come earlier than Exfiltration but also costs a resource - admittedly by level 5 you are throwing them around like candy. I'd honestly need to playlets it to say for sure or not whether it is too much, and I do think it would largely depend on party makeup. At worst its' a nice get of jail free card for someone who needs it, at best it's a bit of cheese the DM will need to plan around (but what isn't these days) and I am always a big fan of party coop/coordination which this feature encourages. 

RE: Champion

Thanks for the feedback - appreciate you taking the time to read and comment! 

Signature weapon - I had thought about choosing a weapon _type_ e.g. one-handed melee, two-handed melee, ranged; but that leaves thrown and lances (and to a lesser extent versatile) in a weird spot that I haven't figured out how to word properly, and also thought about making you choose one weapon _type_ e.g. glaives, daggers, whips, etc, which would encourage thrown/dual wielding (yay for underused play styles!) but also limits the RP potential of playing rapier/dagger or hammer/axe or "guy who uses whatever's easiest" to using X amount of Y. 

For Brutish Weapon, I'm not even sure how a "miss" with an arrow would still cause any damage, but I didn't want to limit it or any of the options to melee only. I figure in my head that it still "hits" but doesn't "pierce" and just bruises or something instead. 

I'm aware Defensive Weapon drops off in usefulness, and while it's clearly the superior choice for a sword + board fighter at those levels it competes with BA attacks from GWM/PAM/dual wielding/XBE which would hopefully encourage a bit of variety. I think it would still see some play at 5+ for a frontliner but would be a tough sell at 11+ once you're trading 3 attacks for 1. Also not really sure what to do about it at that point. 

Distracting - I've always thought the BM's BA + 1 attack + 1 reaction was a bad trade unless you had a rogue or a pally, and I designed this feature with the mindset that a) encouraging party cooperation feels good at the table and b) not every party will have a character in it who can justify an extensive resource trade. I do acknowledge its relative power level though and I do like the idea of it unlocking Help as a BA instead - will give that a think. 

Sweeping was intended to be range agnostic, just couldn't think of a better name for it. You're right that one enemy is enough for the splash damage. 

I have the same misgivings about True Weapon, but Forge Cleric gets it at 1. That does mean that a Forge Cleric 1/Champion Fighter 3 with archery FS can have a +2 weapon and a +2 attack bonus for an essential -1/+12... but I'm not sure that's the end of the world for this, given it can make life a lot easier for a lot of other builds too. Especially if I work out how to make it work for a dual wield build who can suddenly have 2 +1 weapons at 3 and a flurry attack at 10 to try and keep up with the GWM/SS builds. 

For Remarkable Athlete, my thinking behind giving an additional d4 was to stop the feature from being useless for checks you were already proficient in - e.g. Athletics on a grappler. 

Signature Fighting Styles - 

Defense - I thought so too, but am struggling to come up with alternates. +2 AC might "feel" better than +1 to AC and saves, but in my experience the saves boost is probably more useful in the long run. Any DR would have to be aware of stacking with Heavy Armour Master. Just drawing blanks.

Blind Fighting does need a rework as BerzerkerUnit also pointed out.

GWF is intended to stack (as they all do - e.g. upgrading Defense gives +1 AC and +1 to saves, even though its entry only reads as +1 to saves), which ends up looking like 1) reroll 1s/2s, 2) any that reroll back into 1s/2s get treated as 3s. Maybe it is a few too many steps and I could swap it with the Archery max damage feature - less likelihood of crit fishing with improved range and Elven Accuracy then as well. 

Interception - good point. Maybe it should read until the start of the victim's next turn rather than the fighter's. 

Thrown does need some love. I'm finding it hard to give it a niche between ranged/dueling/TWF. I think I will try and find a way to get multiple thrown attacks covered by Signature Weapon, so will then work it out from there.

TWF - cheers! I do want to give this a stronger FS to compensate for its lack of support/an SS/GWM equivalent in 5e. 

Unarmed - it was not my intention to open this up to giving your Str bonus to everybody who hits your grappled target with an unarmed strike - while that's a cool visual it feels weird mechanically & will have to fix the wording. 

I know that "lots of options" can often read like "too much complexity" to a new player, but I think having default/easy options like True Weapon can help with that, and all the Fighting Styles are linked to a specific playstyle that the player should definitely have figured out by level 10. I really appreciate all the feedback & will take a second look at a lot of the options here. Cheers!

*Changes made:*

Signature Weapon changed to one named weapon type - e.g. short swords, darts, battle-axes. This benefits TWF and thrown weapon builds (intended), but has made the wording a bit trickier. If anyone can think of a better way to word it, please let me know! 

Distracting Weapon changed to offering Help as a BA on a successful hit. 

Sweeping Weapon changed to splash damage to a single target.

Archery Signature Fighting Style changed from maximised damage to maximising one die to prevent stacking with crits.

Blind Fighting SFS changed from advantage to +2 to attack rolls on targets you are relying on blindsight to see. Still up in the air about options for this one.

Interception SFS changed to resistance til the start of the target's turn rather than the fighter's turn to reduce reliance on a lucky initiative order.

Thrown Weapon SFS changed to +1 damage die on a crit as well as double the range - again not set in stone. 

Unarmed Fighting SFS clarified to only be a damage boost for your own unarmed strikes.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> @Old Harry - cheers for the clarification! I'd love to see this expanded to work with archers; though I'm not sure how reducing spell ranges to touch will work out there.


That's why i added "original spell" to the wording (_While wielding a bonded weapon, you can replace any spell attack roll with a weapon attack roll, if the target is within range of both the original spell and the weapon_), meaning to use the range of the spell as it is BEFORE it is reduced to touch. It should work, maybe i have to polish the wording a bit.




> Spellcasting Focus working with a sword and shield in hand was exactly what I was trying to talk about haha.


Hahaha, sorry, English is not my native language^^




> Eldritch Blast fits the name; I'm not sure if it combo-ing with Weapon Bond is a great idea - e.g. 2d10+2d8 damage - although writing this out just now makes me realise that without Invocation support it probably is fine? The real issue would come through a Warlock multi class to turn that into 2d10+2d8+2*Cha, and then 3d10+3d8+3*Cha at 11, and so on. Not sure if multi classing is on your radar as a homebrewer though.


That's right, that's why I wasn't able to sleep well tonight thinking about this XD. I think I will temporarily fix it by writing a special cantrip (the most eligible name at the moment is Eldritch Shot), same as Eldritch Blast but with a d6 or a d8 instead of the d10. Anyway, I don't want to build the subclass around a single cantrip or spell, so I want to see if I can come up with an alternative.

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## nickl_2000

Sorry about the delay on my reviews of others.  I got very busy this week prepping for an interview Friday.  I promise that I will get to them though!

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## Old Harry MTX

> Originally Posted by tzurk
> 
> 
> Eldritch Blast fits the name; I'm not sure if it combo-ing with Weapon Bond is a great idea - e.g. 2d10+2d8 damage - although writing this out just now makes me realise that without Invocation support it probably is fine? The real issue would come through a Warlock multi class to turn that into 2d10+2d8+2*Cha, and then 3d10+3d8+3*Cha at 11, and so on. Not sure if multi classing is on your radar as a homebrewer though.
> 
> 
> That's right, that's why I wasn't able to sleep well tonight thinking about this XD. I think I will temporarily fix it by writing a special cantrip (the most eligible name at the moment is Eldritch Shot), same as Eldritch Blast but with a d6 or a d8 instead of the d10. Anyway, I don't want to build the subclass around a single cantrip or spell, so I want to see if I can come up with an alternative.


UPDATE: so, instead of creating a brand new cantrip that looks like Eldritch Blast, I added a feature (Eldritch Flurry at 7th level) that turns any "cantrip with a single spell attack roll" in a sort of Eldritch Blast.
I put a restriction to avoid focusing all "beams" on one target to increase the chances of inflicting a malus, but now you can try to hit multiple creatures and inflict it on all of them (but nothing seems gamebreaking). It obviously makes a great combo with Weaponbond. 




> Sorry about the delay on my reviews of others.  I got very busy this week prepping for an interview Friday.  I promise that I will get to them though!


Good luck for your interview!

----------


## Amechra

I decided to throw my hat in the ring with a remake of the Way Of The Sun Soul.

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## Twelvetrees

Two more reviews.

*Spoiler: Artificer - Alchemist*
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*Alchemist Spells*
Comparing with the standard Alchemist, losing _healing word_, _death ward_, and _raise dead_ hurts. _Polymorph_ and _enhance ability_ do some work to make up for their loss and _Tasha's caustic brew_ fits an alchemist well thematically.

*Tool Proficiency*
Giving expertise a few levels before Tool Expertise comes online is a nice improvement.

*Alchemical Mixes*
Ooh, I like that you give proficiency with throwing acid and alchemist's fire. That fits.

I can't help but compare the rest of this feature with the Artillerist's Eldritch Cannon. The mixes that focus on damage, like Corrosive Acid, Thunderstone, and Pipe Bomb don't seem that good when you can only use them intelligence modifier times per long rest and an Eldritch Cannon can keep shooting for comparable damage for an hour.

The other mixes seem good, if a little repetitive. Frost Flask, Tanglefoot Bag, and Bottled Tar all inhibit movement, for example.

You also run into the Battle Master problem when picking mixes at higher levels - you're choosing from the same list and picking options that were your third, fourth, and fifth picks when you initially got the feature. I'd consider letting your picks at higher levels give you better options, in a similar fashion to some warlock invocations being level gated.

*Create Potions*
Can you call out what sort of action it takes to drink one of these potions? I can guess that it takes an action, but it would be good to explicitly say.

Tightening the wording around how many you can create and have existing at once would help, too. Creating potions right before taking a long rest is a viable strategy right now that allows an alchemist to get back their spell slots and have a full bag of potions ready to go. Maybe something like "You can use this feature until the combined spell levels of the spells imbued into potions equals your proficiency modifier. This resets after you take a long rest. Any potions you create with this feature last until they are drunk or until the end of your next long rest."

Given the requirements for spells that can be imbued into potions, this is the full list of spells that are eligible: _Alter Self_ (C), _Blink_, _Blur_ (C), _Disguise Self_, _Expeditious Retreat_ (C), _False Life_, _See Invisibility_, _Ashardalon's Stride_ (C), and _Kinetic Jaunt_ (C).

Concentration-less _blur_ is really good, but the rest seem situational at best. This feature also sees some overlap with Spell-Storing Item at 11th level and that feature isn't limited to self-targeting spells. I'd been hoping for an expansion of the Replicate Magic Item infusion to include potions when I read the title of the feature, so this ends up feeling like a little bit of a let-down.

*Quick Alchemy*
I love that you added the Alchemy Jug as an infusion. It's perfectly on-the-nose. Boosting how often you can use your Alchemical Mixes will change how an alchemist plays, so that adds an interesting dynamic.

Increasing the damage of the Mixes at this level would help the alchemist's damage output. Being able to use them more helps too, but it doesn't change how much damage you can deal in a single round.

*Alchemy Mastery*
I'm disappointed by this capstone. The official option's greatest strength comes from giving you two free spells, both of which are quite good. Switching that out for not having to prepare the spells you stuff into your potions and being able to make potions faster feels like a poor trade, especially because this comes after you've gained Spell-Storing Item. Even if you can create a potion faster, I'm hard pressed to think of a situation where you'd want to spend your action to create one and have a friend spend their action to drink it.

*Edit:* Wait, is this meant to allow you to ignore the eligibility requirements from Create Potion? How would that work with spells like arcane eye or wall of stone?

*Overall Impression*
You've done a much better job than the official version does of making sure every feature this subclass grants makes a character feel like an alchemist. The mechanics around Create Potion feel a little shaky, but I like where this is going.


*Spoiler: Way of the Sun Soul*
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*Ring the Golden Bell*
I'm reading this as a combination of some of the features granted by the Way of Mercy and the Way of the Astral Self. Increased reach works well with the predilection monks have for skirmishing tactics and the option to increase damage is quite potent on a monk. 

I'd suggest taking a page out of the Way of Mercy's book and limiting the additional damage to once per turn. I'd also lean towards not making the extra damage contingent on having increased your reach. As it is, this feature encourages blowing through as much of your ki at once as possible: You have to spend ki to increase your reach if you want additional damage and the most cost-efficient way to spend it is all at the same time.

Writing out how much light you shed instead of making people look up how much light a torch provides would be a minor, but helpful, change.

*Brushing Aside Sunbeams*
I wouldn't expect this to come up much, given the limited number of spells that rely on attacks, but it'll be cool when it does. What happens if you reduce the damage to 0? What kind of missile do you catch?

*Searing Arc Sweep*
I don't know how to evaluate this feature. Giving additional attacks is powerful, but forcing you to multi-target is a good limiter. I think I'd have to see this in play to get a feel for it, but more attacks are always fun.

*Step of the Sun*
I love this. Flight, plus turning light levels into terrain emphasizes the themes of this subclass and gets them to stand out for other players as well.

*Crackling Solar Aura*
The first line would be more clear if worded "You shed bright light in a 20-foot radius and dim light for an additional 20 feet."

What part of Ring the Golden Bell does the first bullet point allow you to activate without spending a ki point?

Not requiring you to use your reaction to deal radiant damage when you get hit is a better version of the official feature, but it's difficult to quantify how much better it is. More creatures have multiattack at high levels, which probably makes this stronger than it first appears. That's not necessarily bad, but it does incentivize a different style of play than the previous 16 levels. You now want to get hit by weak attacks because you'll deal more damage that way.

Shedding light that is treated as sunlight is a nice little ribbon feature that can occasionally come in handy. It also makes a ton of sense for a class with "sun" in the name.

*Overall Impression*
Other than some details with the wording of some of the features, Way of the Sun Soul works as a good alternative to the official version. I'm a little sad to see the ability to throw lasers go, but shining like a sun makes up for it.

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## ShiningStarling

Refine Mayhem, huh? Well, I know a subclass with a lot of mayhem...

Just submitted an alteration of Wild Sorcerer, a class that I have used my legendarily poor luck to leverage as a threat against DMs and Players alike.

First time entering a 5e competition, would love any feedback! I'm more of a 3.5/PF kinda gal, but I saw the theme and had an idea I just couldn't resist. Hope you all enjoy :3 <3

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## nickl_2000

Time for reviews

*Spoiler: Beastmaster Ranger*
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*Magic Fang* - The higher levels feels a little bit odd on this one, mostly because Ranger's don't get higher than level 6 spells without multiclassing.  I know you can multiclass and you can get it through magic secrets, still feels odd.

*Alternative Animal Companions* - This looks good to me, you are getting better companions as you level and better beasts.  I wouldn't mind seeing the ability to get a new companion as something gained during a long rest instead of 24 hours.  The only reason I say this is that you effectively lose your subclass if you are dungeon crawling and your beast dies.

*Natural Weaponry* - I see absolutely no reason why this shouldn't be dex or str for unarmed strikes.  Martial weapons deal more damage than all the natural weapons listed here already, so they are generally a superior choice (outside of the magic fang spell) and most Rangers are dex based.

*Shared Life* - This is abusable as it's written right now.  All I need to do is to put my animal companion somewhere safe where it won't ever be attacks and I'm immortal!  Probably should add something where you need to be within X feet of each other.

Overall I like this subclass.  It's a good middle ground between the old beastmaster that wasn't all that effective and the Tasha's one that is incredibly generic.  I like most of the abilities and think it's a really good take on it.





*Spoiler: Way of the Elements*
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The elemental cantrips are great here.  They are so useful and so effective, those alone give the 4e monk more of a magical feel and more effective in general.

For the spells that have costly component, do you still need to spend them?  Are you casting as normal or can you bypass it since you are casting with Ki?

For all of the attunement attacks, the damage is slightly confusing.  When I'm 9th level can I apply the 2d10 from 9th level without applying the 1d10 from 5th level?  Or is it building and you have to spend the lower levels.

*Fangs of the Fire Snake* - This is a heck of a lot of damage compared to the others.  Every time you hit with a unarmed strike

*Elemental Strike* - Can you choose any of these damage types, or only the ones that you can attune to?

By far a better take on the 4e monk than the official 4e monk.  You get to feel the magic all the time instead of it being bursty, you always have the cantrips available and have lots of choices.  I like it!




*Spoiler: Barbarian Path of the Berserker Revised*
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Being done to death just means that it really needs a re-write

*Wakened Fury* - This is really core, I don't see why this isn't a core feature on all barbarians.  So many abilities trigger off of rage, when they run out of them they are just boring.

*Frenzy* - My first thought on this is what it was to powerful when seeing the damage, but after looking more carefully, I wonder if it's a little weak.  You get a decent amount of extra damage, but the resource cost is really, really in using up a Rage.  I wouldn't mind seeing something here were you get a certain amount of uses (maybe your Con Mod) then once you have used those it you can use a rage to do it additional times.

*Mindless Rage* - For many classes I would say meh to this, but on a barbarian it's really powerful and useful.  I like it a lot.

*Indomitable* - I wouldn't mind this having a different name than the fighter ability.  A 10/10 Barb/fighter is possible, but since it has the same name you only get whichever one you see first.

*Intimidation Stance* - At will seems a little much for this.  I wouldn't mind some limiter, even it's a high one (prof mod times per short rest even).

*Retaliation* - If using intimidation stance, does it still have a max of 21?  Also, how does it work with reduced damage?




*Spoiler: Champion Fighter, Revised*
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*Signature Weapon* = By weapon type you mean a specific weapon, correct?  As in, I can choose a Longsword or a Greatsword, but not a sword?  If that is the case, I would use one type of sword in your examples.

*Signature Weapon* - Do these need to be defined by damage type of the weapon?  It seems odd doing slashing damage with a maul.
True Weapon - This is the only one I worry about and mostly because of archery weapons.  +2 for archery fighting style, +1 for true weapon  that makes a gigantic difference in your hit percentage.

*Fighting Style Expert*
Blind Fighting - So this gives a +2 to hit someone within 10 feet because you can just close your eyes and use the blindsight.

Overall you have a lot of good things going on here.  I like the fact that you kept it relatively simple, but still made it so there was a lot going on.  My only worry is the stacking of the +'s to hit.




*Spoiler: SOULKNIFE*
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*Mind Blade* - The critical aspect of this feels like a problem, especially on a rogue.  You can manifest 2 blades round one, then auto-crit in rounds 2 and 3.  Sure you don't get to disengage, but being able to roll twice the dice will do some serious damage in those rounds.  I wouldn't mind seeing a cap in how often you can auto-crit, maybe proficiency mod times?

*Way of the Soulknife* - Does this mean the bonus action attack from the monk can be with the soulknife?

*Psychic Pin* - How long does this last?

I'm really interested in the way you did this so it was available to three different classes.  I actually think you did a better job than WotC did in their UA where they attempted the same thing.




More will come later, but here is a start

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## nickl_2000

Reviews Take 2 (sorry about the double posting, but I didn't want someone to miss a review on accident because they read my first post)

*Spoiler: Eldritch Knight*
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There should be no shame in recycling things that work.  Why re-invent the wheel when something was done perfectly before!

*Martial Magic* - Ouch, this is a pretty rough de-buff.  So, I will be watching to see if you make up for it.  Losing the ability to throw out a firebolt is painful on a strength based fighter.

*Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher* - I really, really like the addition of attack spells.  I always found the 2 schools to be overly restrictive and this fits into the idea of a martial based attack very well.

*Spellcasting Focus* - I like this as well, you are a martial and you should be able to handle magic with martial items.

*Weapon Bond* - "if the target is within either the original spell's range and the range of the weapon." since above you removed the distance ability on spells you really don't need this.  All spells are touch spells, so you can remove it.  I do se an issue with the attacks when you cast a spell.  At level 5, you could cast BB/GFB for 1 attack and rider damage, then you can make 2 more weapon attacks.  That is a lot of damage.  This ability needs to be limited somehow, either by making it levelled spells or only X amount of times per day.

*Eldritch Flurry* - "If the cantrip has effects other than just dealing damage and you target the same creature more than once, only the first can inflict those effects" it doesn't hurt to spell this out, but that is standard rules.

I think like the idea behind this.  You are a martial character and you are using magic to aid in your ability to do damage to others.  There are some interesting combination that I am not completely sure about though.  I would love to see the weapon bond and Eldritch Strike a little more clear in your intent for them.




*Spoiler: Assassin, Revised*
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*Assassinate* - Really powerful, but better than the original.  Question, is a surprise round considered the first round of combat or can you crit in the surprise round and the next round automatically?

*Exfiltration Expertise* - In the right team this would be incredible.  Nice to see more team abilities on a rogue.

*Death Strike* - Good, strong capstone.

This is a killer, killer class for multiclassing.  A Half-Orc assassin 3/Gloomstalker 3/Fighter 11 would get 4 attacks.  Each attack doing 6d8 + dex (27x4 + 5x4 + 14 = 108 + 20 + 14 + 8 = 152).  Then for good measure we action surge to do an additional 152 damage.  Since you are attacking at advantage, there is a good chance you will hit everything and mess the world up on that first round.  However, that requires you to be level 17 to make it work, so you should have godlike powers at that point.

The numbers are
1d8 weapon
1d8 Gloomstalker damage
1d8 Half-Orc Savage Critical
+5 Dex
+2 for dueling fighting style
2d6 Sneak attack
3 attacks from fighter, 1 bonus from gloomstalker
(there may be a mistake here, but it's interesting running the numbers).




*Spoiler: The Way Of The Sun Soul*
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I guess I never considered Sun Soul needing a re-write, but I love Monks so I look forward to seeing what you've got!

*Ring the Golden Bell* - This is actually a downgrade from the official.  Not sure if it needs to be downgraded, but it is probably fine.

* Brushing Aside Sunbeams* - I love this!  The imagery is downright amazing and it makes the Monk even more of a mage slayer.

* Searing Arc Sweep* - So you can make 6 attacks with this ability.  Do I need 3 targets or 6 when I do?  As in I've changed my 2 attacks to 3 attacks and target 3 different targets.  Then I do flurry for 3 more attacks, can I target the same 3 or does it need to be different?

*Crackling Solar Aura* - "You may extinguish or reignite your brilliant aura as a bonus action." what is the brilliant aura?  Is that the solar aura from this ability?

I like it, you are more sun focused and you can sling around light to do damage.  Just a few questions as mentioned above.




*Spoiler: Wild Sorcerer*
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Welcome to the contest, always happy to see more people joining int
*Wild Magic Surge* - I like the fact that you can trigger it, and that by upcasting you get at least a little bit more control.  Can this be twinned? I would guess not since it isn't a single target spell.

*Roll with the Tides* - I like the risk here.  You could potentially do some serious damage or spend a lot of time as a plant :)

Overall I like it.  One of the main complaints I've heard from Wild Magic Sorcerer is that it doesn't trigger often enough.  You have done a great job of taking care of that.  I really like it!

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## Snowben Gaming

> The elemental cantrips are great here.  They are so useful and so effective, those alone give the 4e monk more of a magical feel and more effective in general.
> 
> For the spells that have costly component, do you still need to spend them?  Are you casting as normal or can you bypass it since you are casting with Ki?


 I believe I said that all material components are ignored, regardless of if they have a cost. Unless you mean Royalty components from Aquisitons Incorporated? None of the Attunement spells have royalty components so I didn't mention it.




> For all of the attunement attacks, the damage is slightly confusing.  When I'm 9th level can I apply the 2d10 from 9th level without applying the 1d10 from 5th level?  Or is it building and you have to spend the lower levels.


 It's supposed to be 5th level - 1 extra ki, 1 extra damage die; 9th level - 2 extra ki, 2 extra damage die; ect. But that's... not exactly what I've written I'll fix that real quick




> *Fangs of the Fire Snake* - This is a heck of a lot of damage compared to the others.  Every time you hit with a unarmed strike


 I ported fangs over from the original elements monk, but as I changed it to be part of the attack action, I opened it up to procing with flurry. If I limit it to unarmed strikes made with that attack action only would that be better, as then its basically just the original.




> *Elemental Strike* - Can you choose any of these damage types, or only the ones that you can attune to?


Its any of the damage types, I'll add a clause to specify.




> By far a better take on the 4e monk than the official 4e monk.  You get to feel the magic all the time instead of it being bursty, you always have the cantrips available and have lots of choices.  I like it!


 Thanks! Glad to hear you like it, I was worried that it was a bit all over the place lol.

----------


## Snowben Gaming

Alright, I'm stuck with my entry now.
I still need to do:
Attunement of Metal (there are barely any metal based spells  :Small Mad: )Ability for Attunement of WoodThe rider effect for Metal for Elemental StrikesInvestiture of Steel

If anyone has any ideas for these things, it'd be greatly appreciated.

In the mean time, I'll get on reviews.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

Aloha all!

I'm about to post a Sun Soul redesign.

Pls note, I haven't looked at the submissions thread since I think the Champion and Assassin were first posted so any similarities between mine and the other I see referenced above are pure synchronicity.

Thanks and looking forward to any feedback!

Edit: And now having posted mine I looked at the earlier submission and wow was there some parallel thinking.

Note to that other offer.  That 1st level feature just EATS Ki for just not a lot of return.

----------


## Twelvetrees

> *Spoiler: Assassin, Revised*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Assassinate* - Really powerful, but better than the original.  Question, is a surprise round considered the first round of combat or can you crit in the surprise round and the next round automatically?
> 
> *Exfiltration Expertise* - In the right team this would be incredible.  Nice to see more team abilities on a rogue.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the review! There really isn't a surprise round in 5e, so you only auto-crit on the first round of a fight, regardless of whether creatures are surprised. Surprise is weird.

I changed the wording around on Assassinate a little to cut down on the multiclassing shenanigans. It now only applies to the first attack that hits.





> RE: Champion
> 
> **Snip**
> 
> Blind Fighting SFS changed from advantage to +2 to attack rolls on targets you are relying on blindsight to see. Still up in the air about options for this one.
> 
> Interception SFS changed to resistance til the start of the target's turn rather than the fighter's turn to reduce reliance on a lucky initiative order.
> 
> Thrown Weapon SFS changed to +1 damage die on a crit as well as double the range - again not set in stone.


Blind Fighting still has the same problem - it still incentivizes you to voluntarily blind yourself. I'd suggest considering something like expanding the range of your blindsight or giving you a limited capability to use truesight.

Interception doesn't quite work yet either. Ideally, the resistance would last until the same turn on the next round. The wording needs some work, but "the creature you reduce damage to gains resistance to all damage until the same point in the initiative in the following round," would grant resistance for a full round instead of a partial round.

Thrown Weapon Fighting now closely resembles the barbarian's Brutal Critical feature, which has perhaps rightfully been pointed out to be rather weak. I think you'd have room for another minor benefit in here. My tongue-in-cheek suggestions would be a boomerang effect or a hammerspace effect so you never run out of thrown weapons.






*Edit:* Another review!

*Spoiler: Beastmaster*
Show

*Beastmaster Spells*
The only one of these that seems out of place to me is scrying - how did you envision this fitting the theme of a master of animals? I would have expected something like _awaken_ or maybe _insect plague_.

I realize that _magic fang_ is a version of _magic weapon_ for a beast's attacks instead and that is why the At Higher Levels section references casting it using a spell slot of 6th level or higher. It still feels odd for a ranger-specific spell because a pure ranger could never cast it at that level.

*Animal Companion*
Why the specific list?

Their hit points need to increase faster if they're supposed to survive at higher levels. A pony or wolf with six additional hit dice will only have 33 hit points. A raven will have 10. The official Beast Master would at least give them 68 for a 17th level ranger.

_Alternative Animal Companions_
Why aren't these options all at the same CR for the same level? There are a few clear options that are better than all the rest at each level and it corresponds with CR.

*Feral Spirit*
This favors beasts with Multiattack options. Would you be willing to consider a damage bump to a single attack of the beast's that hits? It would still favor beasts with more than one attack, but it wouldn't make them the go-to option at this level.

*Shared Life*
Way cool! Did this take inspiration from 4e's Beastlord epic destiny feature of the same name?

----------


## Old Harry MTX

Thankyou for your feedbacks! 




> *Martial Magic* - Ouch, this is a pretty rough de-buff.  So, I will be watching to see if you make up for it.  Losing the ability to throw out a firebolt is painful on a strength based fighter.


Yes, but consider that you only reduce the range of spells, not their area of effect. That's why I added Battle Surge at 7th level, allowing you to use aoe spells protecting yourself and your allies from the effects. 




> *Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher* - I really, really like the addition of attack spells.  I always found the 2 schools to be overly restrictive and this fits into the idea of a martial based attack very well.
> 
> *Spellcasting Focus* - I like this as well, you are a martial and you should be able to handle magic with martial items.


Thanks! 




> *Weapon Bond* - "if the target is within either the original spell's range and the range of the weapon." since above you removed the distance ability on spells you really don't need this.  All spells are touch spells, so you can remove it.


Originally it simply said "if the target is in range", allowing the use of weapons with the  reach property. Then tzurk make me notice that this subclass could be a nice alternative to the Arcane Archer too, so I changed this in "if the target is withing either the ORIGINAL spell's range (so, before it's reduced to touch) and the range of the weapon (that could also be a ranged one)". This way you can apply this feature with ranged weapons too, even if the class isn't originally meant to do that. 




> I do se an issue with the attacks when you cast a spell.  At level 5, you could cast BB/GFB for 1 attack and rider damage, then you can make 2 more weapon attacks.  That is a lot of damage.  This ability needs to be limited somehow, either by making it levelled spells or only X amount of times per day.


Mmm, i don't get your point here. Actually, you can't use BB/GFB with Weapon Bond, since they have a weapon attack, not a SPELL attack ROLL. Also, Weapon Bond doesn't add more attacks to a spell, simply lets you convert spell attack rolls in a certain number of weapon attacks. If the spell have only one spell attack roll, you can make only one weapon attack, even if you can make more of them in a normal attack action! ^^




> *Eldritch Flurry* - "If the cantrip has effects other than just dealing damage and you target the same creature more than once, only the first can inflict those effects" it doesn't hurt to spell this out, but that is standard rules.


Mmm, I'm not completely sure about that. Even if the feature says to consider the cast of these cantrips as a single spell, it still says that you cast the cantrip two times (and then three and four), so I prefer to avoid any doubts ^^




> I think like the idea behind this.  You are a martial character and you are using magic to aid in your ability to do damage to others.  There are some interesting combination that I am not completely sure about though.  I would love to see the weapon bond and Eldritch Strike a little more clear in your intent for them.


I'm testing these features since about two years now, in the original class, and I have to admit that they work very well! ^^

The wording actually should cover all the exceptions, maybe I have to add some example?

Anyway, thanks again for your precious feedbacks!

----------


## nickl_2000

> Thanks for the review!





> Comparing with the standard Alchemist, losing healing word, death ward, and raise dead hurts. Polymorph and enhance ability do some work to make up for their loss and Tasha's caustic brew fits an alchemist well thematically.


I tried to balance the good and the bad here, but in general focus more on modification of people and elemental effects verses healing.




> You also run into the Battle Master problem when picking mixes at higher levels - you're choosing from the same list and picking options that were your third, fourth, and fifth picks when you initially got the feature. I'd consider letting your picks at higher levels give you better options, in a similar fashion to some warlock invocations being level gated.


An interesting idea, I will consider it.  Level gating would make some mixes clearly superior than others, but it does open it up for more power and more difference between this and the battlemaster.  I will consider re-jiggering it.




> Given the requirements for spells that can be imbued into potions, this is the full list of spells that are eligible: Alter Self (C), Blink, Blur (C), Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat (C), False Life, See Invisibility, Ashardalon's Stride (C), and Kinetic Jaunt (C).


According to my own research you get:
Alter Self, Ashardalon's Stride, Blink, Blur, Cure Wounds, Darkvision, Detect Magic, Disguise Else, Enhance Ability, Expeditious Retreat, False Life, Fly, Freedom of Movement, Greater Restoration, Invisibility, Jump, Lesser Restoration, Longstrider, Protection from Energy, Protection from Poison, Revivify, See Invisibility, Skill Empowerment, Spider Climb, and Stone skin.

The goal of this is to give buffs out to allies that don't require concentration.  Something like Stone Skin is very powerful, but its still costly.  A potion of Darkvision is great to have sitting around after you made it during downtime, to help out allies who can't see well.  Seeing this list, does it make a difference?  It also gives you more flexibility since you can make a potion of lesser/greater restoration and then you don't need to have it prepared.

I actually want the artificer to be creating these potions at the end of the night and during off time.  The goal here is that you are preparing beforehand to have potions available, but you are limited on spells by your proficiency modifier.  Give that this is the case, do you think I could increase this?






> I'd been hoping for an expansion of the Replicate Magic Item infusion to include potions when I read the title of the feature, so this ends up feeling like a little bit of a let-down.


That's an interesting option.  I will look at the potions again and see if it would be incredibly broken to be able to replicate them (some of those are really, really powerful)




> Alchemy Mastery
> I'm disappointed by this capstone. The official option's greatest strength comes from giving you two free spells, both of which are quite good. Switching that out for not having to prepare the spells you stuff into your potions and being able to make potions faster feels like a poor trade, especially because this comes after you've gained Spell-Storing Item. Even if you can create a potion faster, I'm hard pressed to think of a situation where you'd want to spend your action to create one and have a friend spend their action to drink it.


That's legit.  What if I got rid of the ability to make them quicker and instead gave the ability to infusion potions and another free infusion known and made?  You are at level 15 at this point, so there is less of a concern of the overall power of potions.

----------


## Twelvetrees

> An interesting idea, I will consider it.  Level gating would make some mixes clearly superior than others, but it does open it up for more power and more difference between this and the battlemaster.  I will consider re-jiggering it.


You don't necessarily have to make them more powerful, either, as long as the higher level options are different. Being able to throw a mix to create an area-of-effect of damage, to create a piece of solid terrain (like a wall or tree), or to heal an ally would all be different enough to be intriguing.




> According to my own research you get:
> Alter Self, Ashardalon's Stride, Blink, Blur, Cure Wounds, Darkvision, Detect Magic, Disguise Else, Enhance Ability, Expeditious Retreat, False Life, Fly, Freedom of Movement, Greater Restoration, Invisibility, Jump, Lesser Restoration, Longstrider, Protection from Energy, Protection from Poison, Revivify, See Invisibility, Skill Empowerment, Spider Climb, and Stone skin.


I don't think I understand how you got your list. Your third bullet point for eligible spells says this:




> The target is Self without a range or touch on a creature


Detect Magic has a target of Self, but I interpreted being able to sense magic within 30 feet as giving it a range. The other spells my list was missing all have a range of Touch instead of Self. Can you reword the third bullet point to make it more clear what spells are supposed to be eligible?




> The goal of this is to give buffs out to allies that don't require concentration.





> I actually want the artificer to be creating these potions at the end of the night and during off time.


Ah, here we go. This is what I was missing.

Given this design intent, my advice would be to reword this feature to make it so you prepare these potions as part of a long rest. I'd also suggest removing the requirement to spend a spell slot and limit it completely through proficiency bonus. If you want to make it really, explicitly clear that this should be used on concentration spells, you could consider adding a bullet point to the eligibility requirements to make this feature only work for concentration spells.




> That's legit.  What if I got rid of the ability to make them quicker and instead gave the ability to infusion potions and another free infusion known and made?  You are at level 15 at this point, so there is less of a concern of the overall power of potions.


That sounds like an awesome idea to me!

----------


## nickl_2000

> You don't necessarily have to make them more powerful, either, as long as the higher level options are different. Being able to throw a mix to create an area-of-effect of damage, to create a piece of solid terrain (like a wall or tree), or to heal an ally would all be different enough to be intriguing.
> 
> I don't think I understand how you got your list. Your third bullet point for eligible spells says this:
> 
> 
> 
> Detect Magic has a target of Self, but I interpreted being able to sense magic within 30 feet as giving it a range. The other spells my list was missing all have a range of Touch instead of Self. Can you reword the third bullet point to make it more clear what spells are supposed to be eligible?
> 
> Ah, here we go. This is what I was missing.
> ...


Thanks again!

Hopefully I've got it this time :)




> At level 5, you can use your alchemist's tools to brew magical potions during a long rest. If there is a costly component consumed to cast the spell it is consumed during the creation of the potion, and if there is a costly component to cast the spell, but is not consumed, you must have the component available when making the potion.
> 
> You may only have alchemical potions created where the combined spell levels of the spells equals your proficiency modifier (for a +3 mod, you may have 3 level 1 spells, 1 level 1 and 1 level 2, or 1 level 3 spell).
> 
> Eligible spells that can be imbued into potions have the following characteristics
> Alchemist spells you know
> Spells that require an action or a bonus action to cast (i.e. not reaction or casting time of over 1 round).
> Spells where the target is Self (without range) or Spells where the target is touch on a single creature.
> 
> The duration of the effect of the potion is the same as the spell, but it doesnt require concentration to keep the effect active. The creature that drinks the potion is the target of the effect of the spell. If there is a save DC from the spell imbued into the potion, it uses your Artificer DC.



I also re-wrote the alchemical mixes to be effects rather than most damage and have it get better at level 15.  If you don't mind taking a look I would love your opinion.

----------


## ShiningStarling

> Welcome to the contest, always happy to see more people joining int
> *Wild Magic Surge* - I like the fact that you can trigger it, and that by upcasting you get at least a little bit more control.  Can this be twinned? I would guess not since it isn't a single target spell.
> 
> *Roll with the Tides* - I like the risk here.  You could potentially do some serious damage or spend a lot of time as a plant :)
> 
> Overall I like it.  One of the main complaints I've heard from Wild Magic Sorcerer is that it doesn't trigger often enough.  You have done a great job of taking care of that.  I really like it!


Thanks! Didn't consider twinning, but text says that to twin a spell the spell must be _incapable_ of targeting more than one creature, and it definitely has that capability, so that would be a no.

Glad you liked it! I'm happy with it as well. I'll give some of the other entries a read in a few days maybe, see if I gots any feedback for anybody.

----------


## nickl_2000

One more review

*Spoiler: Way of the Sun Soul - BerzerkerUnit*
Show



*Illuminating Wisdom* - Fitting, useful, but overall not changing the PCs power.  A good addition.

*Sky-Crossing Step* - This feels a little early for flight abilities to me.  Most subclasses push this until a little later if I recall correctly (although my pre-coffee brain may be making a mistake here).  I do realize that the fly spell is available to multiple classes at this point, but at the cost of one of their few level 3 spells and concentration.  Whereas this is non-concentration and doesn't use other resources.

*Sunset Soul Explosion* - I can't decide if this is fine the way it is or if it needs a ki cost.  I'm going back and forth on it.  The damage is low for 11th level (2d8 without spending more ki), but the area of effect is quite large without there being an additional cost.  It's probably fine the way it is now that I think about it more, but it would be worth watching in a game to see how it plays out.

*Glorious Heliocentric Countenance* - How long does this last?
"Creatures within 10 feet of you that hit" that you hit with what?  A radiant bolt, the explosion, melee?  Or is the intent that it's anything you do damage to?  
The blinded status on this for anyone you do damage to feels to powerful, even with the short period and the save.  Considering how many people you can hit with the Soul Explosion you can blind half and army each turn.

Overall I like it, there is are a lot of really good things going on here

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> One more review
> 
> *Spoiler: Way of the Sun Soul - BerzerkerUnit*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Illuminating Wisdom* - Fitting, useful, but overall not changing the PCs power.  A good addition.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for feedback!

Sky-Crossing Step is an explicitly worse version of the Genie Warlock feature at the same level. 

Sunset Soul mirrors the extant 2d6 version but grants better scaling. 

Heliocentric Countenance triggers when you are hit by a creature w/in 10 feet and lasts 1 minute. (Modified text for duration). 

Hope that helps you evaluate. 

Thanks again!

----------


## Twelvetrees

> If you don't mind taking a look I would love your opinion.


Taking another pass.

*Spoiler: Alchemist*
Show

*Alchemical mixes*

Adding proficiency with throwing holy water was a nice touch.  :Small Smile: 




> *Alchemical Mixes*
> You also gain a special alchemical bag that you can use to mix reagents on the fly and create deadly concoctions. As a bonus action on your turn, you may reach into your alchemical bag, pull out a *vial*, and throw it.  You can throw these *potions* at any space you can see within 60 feet. You are also proficient with throwing acid, holy water, and alchemist's fire. You learn additional mixes at levels 5, 9, and 15.


It would be good to have "mix" or "mixes" in the bold and italicized spots instead so that it is clear you are talking about the same mechanic.

Where did the information on how many mixes you know go?

*Mix Options*
Healing Balm should probably say "regains" instead of "gains"

Weakening Draft can lead to some nonsensical outcomes, like suddenly allowing you to grapple a ghost or petrify a stone golem. I'd swap this out for something else.

I'd also give this section another editing pass. You've got some grammar/spelling issues sprinkled here and there amongst the options.


*Create Potions*
This is much more clear now and hews close to your design intent!


*Alchemy Mastery*
Oh yes, this is good.

Can you explain the lack of climbing, diminution, invisibility, resistance, and any of the healing options from the list of potions? I would have expected to see them included.

----------


## MoleMage

Before I get into individual responses, I did a little bit of rough math on Frenzy, using a greataxe and assuming point buy (Str 17 at level 1 w/racial bonus) with Strength boosted at levels 8, 12, and 16 (4 is to get GWM).

Level 3: 1d12 (axe) + 2d12 (Frenzy) + 3 (Str) + 2 (Rage): 25.5 damage average. This is roughly equal to the damage accrued over 13 rage attacks (no extra attack). Frenzy's damage output is higher than the Rage that it consumes (but you lose the other benefits of the rage).Level 5: 1d12 (axe) + 2d12 (Frenzy) + 3 (Str) + 2 (Rage) + 10 (GWM): 35.5 damage average. It now takes 18 rage attacks to accrue a similar amount of damage. With Extra Attack, that's 9 rounds worth of rage. The Rage _could_ perform higher if it lasts to the full ten rounds, but most combats don't last that long.Level 9: 1d12 (axe) + 3d12 (Frenzy) + 4 (Str) + 3 (Rage) + 10 (GWM): 42 damage average. Equal to 14 rage attacks, or 7 rounds of rage. The situations where Rage outstrips Frenzy are rare but feasible. On the other hand, those situations tend to be exactly when you want to nova (big enemies, long fights).Level 15: 1d12 (axe) + 4d12 (Frenzy) + 5 (Str) + 4 (Rage) + 10 (GWM): 48.5 damage average. Roughly matches to 12 rage attacks, or 6 rounds of rage. Fights are longer at higher levels, so saving your Rages for the resistance is probably worth it considering your damage throughout the day will be similar.

So it looks like my version of Frenzy is most potent at lower levels, especially before extra attack, eventually becoming roughly equal for damage only. I have a few ideas how to improve this and will update accordingly.




> Have a quick review:
> 
> *Spoiler: Path of the Berserker Revised*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Overall, I think this is very well made and that it achieves your aims excellently. I might actually offer this to my players instead of original berserker tbh.
> 
> ...


*Spoiler*
Show


See Frenzy maths at the top of the sheet. I'll make an edit here in the next week or so with my final decision.

As for Indomitable (Soon to be renamed to Juggernaut), I mostly had to word it that way because I didn't want to make the barbarian effectively immune to Restrain and Grapple. The second clause as far as I could tell was specifically only Slow, and I may just remove that and leave the first clause.

Implicitly, the DC for the Intimidation is 8 unless you have damaged them with an attack. Most things you'll encounter at level 10 will shrug off a DC 8 Wis save like water off a duck. I'll reword this to make this explicit.

I'll do something with Retaliation, but it will depend on how I decide to fix Frenzy. Possibly it will just be an ordinary attack again (or maybe an attack without ability bonuses like non-fighting style dual wield).






> 1st round of feedback, starting from the bottom up - 
> 
> *MoleMage's Berserker*
> 
> Wakened Fury - good looking mechanic, for ease of reading should it come below Frenzy?
> 
> Frenzy - a fun way to reimagine the original feature - BIG damage barb, woo! Do I just lose my spent rage if I miss? That sucks. Could you instead only lose it if you make the hit? (is 2d12 enough damage to spend a whole rage on?)
> 
> Mindless Rage - all goods
> ...


*Spoiler*
Show



See the math at the top of this post for the value of the Frenzy relative to using the Rage by itself. Short version, I'm buffing Frenzy in some way to make it more usable without being too much nova.

Indomitable: The grapple effect is just for defense, yes. I intended this at the time but no longer remember why (possibly because I didn't want to give this subclass more offensive options alongside Intimidation Stance.)

The DC is 8 until you deal damage to a given target. As for remembering the damage, that's up to each player. I may rewrite this to be the damage of the last attack on anything instead of the last attack on the target, but I think I could probably keep track on scrap paper or the margins of my sheet unless combats got _really_ big.

Retaliation may be getting the ordinary attack back. I'm gonna give it another read.







> A couple reviews!
> 
> *Spoiler: Path of the Berserker Revised*
> Show
> 
> 
> *Goals*
> I appreciate this section. It makes it really easy to see what youre trying to do here.
> 
> ...


*Spoiler*
Show


I'm looking at alternate ways to fuel Frenzy, because the damage math comes out pretty good (see top of post) but not so much as to be worth the loss of the other perks of rage.

I'm changing Indomitable to Juggernaut, and I'm removing the "percent slow" clause (the rest is staying the same).

I'm not a fan of having to burn the action to maybe scare one guy, especially on the supposed "hitting things" barbarian. I'm gonna take another look at this feature to try and make it fit both the "not using a whole turn" (new) and "being useful at more than fighting" (old) pros.

Retaliation is getting another look to fix the problem with limited Frenzy/Rages. I don't want to just make it attacks all the time but I'll give it _something_.






> Time for reviews
> 
> *Spoiler: Barbarian Path of the Berserker Revised*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Being done to death just means that it really needs a re-write
> 
> ...


 *Spoiler*
Show


Yeah the first four classes here were the poster children for "how did this make the PHB", so I guess I can't feel too bad that I am one of those four.

I'm looking at alternate Frenzy resource options. Haven't settled on one yet. You can see the math at the top of the page but mostly it comes out to "equal, if you only think of rage as a damage feature" (which is the opposite of true). Definitely needs a buff.

Mindless Rage was unaltered from the original. It seemed about right.

I'm going to rename Indomitable to Juggernaut, so you will be able to get both features.

The current version of Intimidation Stance is going to change in some way, but I don't know that it will become use-limited. The baseline Berserker gets a ranged version of this as an action and with no rage requirement. That said, the whole reason I'm here is that the baseline Berserker is bad, so maybe I shouldn't use that as a justification for including this feature.

The restrictions on Retaliation's Intimidation Stance would be the same as those on the base feature. As for reduced damage, it's so rare in core that I forgot about it. I'll fix the wording. Retaliation needs an overall rewrite anyway.



Thanks everyone for the feedback! I'm gonna post my response feedback on everyone else all at once after I spend the next couple days reading the entries and editing the Berserker.

----------


## tzurk

Thanks Twelvetrees for pointing out the non-fix status of my temporary fixes! 

I've had another pass at some problem areas: 

- Interception SFS now grants resistance to just the triggering damage, and then grants the fighter advantage on the next attack they make against the attacking creature. Found it too finicky to word otherwise. 

- Blind Fighting SFS increases radius to 20 feet and grants 5 feet (should it be 10?) of truesight for a turn after hitting a creature with a weapon attack. Should truesight be centred on the target of the attack for archers? The whole fighting style really lends itself more to melee though... not sure. 

- Thrown Weapon SFS gives a 1/turn additional die rather than waiting around for crits. 

Thanks also nickl_2000 for taking a look!

- edited the examples of signature weapon to include both longsword and greatsword to stop a player thinking "I choose swords" to be an acceptable choice

- Brutish and Sweeping weapon have damage types tied to the weapon now instead of being bludgeoning/slashing

- I agree Archery FS + True Weapon is a tempting combo for a min maxer, but I'm honestly not too worried about it being over the top. Maybe I should be, but I think that Archery + SS/XBE is tried and true at this point and there's a lot of different ways to grab boosts for it if players want to - Forge Cleric/Artificer dips or party members, Bless, etc. Maybe I could limit it by saying it only applies to non-magical weapons, so no turning a +1 weapon into a +2 weapon, but I also like that it's an option there for a total beginner who thinks "I'm not too sure how these other things work, so I'll just grab that one" - and that it can then grow with them as they get their hands on cool magical weapons.

Cheers again for the feedback. I will try and take a look at the classes I haven't yet and any revisions over the next few days. Happy Easter my dudes!

oops, almost forgot - @MoleMage - it was interesting to see the math for your version of Frenzy and how it stacks up vs rage - thanks for putting that out there! My main worry is that your Frenzy attack has the opportunity to miss and do 0 damage and you've already spent the rage to get the BA attack. Tying it to a successful hit rather than an attack roll eases that issue, even if it's a bit boring - but a spitball idea for solutions if you're looking.

Or - another thought - could you remove the hit roll entirely and use a BA to expend a rage automatically do X damage to a target you've just hit with a weapon attack? Keep the dice, or make it static like 3 or 4 x barb level? mmmmaaayybeeee. 

One more time - maybe save for half instead of auto damage? Maybe that's all the original feature needs - a bit of a safety net. "if you miss with this attack, the target takes half the damage it would have from a successful hit."

Anyway - excited to see what you do with it!

----------


## MoleMage

Feedback for everyone! It only took me a week to get to it!

*Spoiler: Beastmaster Ranger*
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One of the most iconic D&D features is the animal companion and the fact that it was relegated to one unloved subclass...you're doing good works here.

Reintroducing Magic Fang goes miles towards making this class better; even if you lose the level seven default magic on Animal Companion.The Animal Companion options are wildly different in power level from one another. Even with the new vipers; the Medium one is better across the board than the small one (Same stats, same AC, same speed, but the Medium's HP are three times the Small and its attack does an extra 1.5 damage on average.) Badgers are pretty weak, only having a +2 melee for 1 piercing, while a wolf gets 2d4 + 2 piercing on a +4 attack and also has Keen Hearing and Smell plus Pact Tactics. This is not really an innate problem of your class but giving the animal companion adjustments something to compensate for weaker animals might be good.Animal Companion Adjustments:


Does the animal companion get any proficiency bonus effects? For example, if you have an eagle, does its perception improve with level even though it doesn't get increases to wisdom from Ability Score Increase? This matters for some Orders (especially Seek for Perception and Work, which will possibly involve Athletics).Link has ambiguous wording. Does the animal obey a command until another command is given? Does the animal companion roll its own initiative, and what does the ranger do if their companion acts before them in combat?

Down should probably indicate that the animal will use the Disengage action if appropriate.Defend and Guard should specify what an animal's typical actions would be in those circumstances (when Defending do they try to get in the way, attack the defended target's attackers, use the Protection fighting style? With Guard do they attack first and growl later or will they try to guard an area with threat displays first? Or does the Ranger train them as they prefer?Seek should probably specify whether and how the animal reports its results. Can you order it to return to you after seeking or does it just act as a pointer? Natural Weaponry is not the direction I expected this to go, but I think as a feature it's fine. Might want to give it special interactions with the fighting styles Rangers get (Two-Weapon especially). I'd estimate that an increase in each die's size would be fine too; rangers already get better options for weapons. Feral Spirit is pretty polarized towards animals with deep multiattacks. When it's first gained there isn't really an option to get that, but at level 15 a ranger could have either a level 3 companion (Wolf, say) with two attacks or pick up a Leopard and have up to four attacks in a round. A once per round bonus with a higher value could compensate (like sneak attack but probably not that intense). Shared life is a pretty cool. What happens if you get healing while you've already failed three death saving throws? I would also suggest that damage dealt to one of them while at 3 failed death saves is instead dealt to the other one. If someone is trying to coup-de-grace a ranger on the ground and his animal companion is just chilling in the sky it's gonna be a little weird for the DM to be like "well this isn't working, now he draws his bow and fires on your hawk instead".

I think it's got the right outline, overall (though I don't know about Natural Weaponry at 7th level). But I think on the whole it comes out a little bit weak, possibly even a little bit weaker than the baseline Beast Master.



*Spoiler: Four (Actually 6) Elements*
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Elemental Initiate should have been baseline in OG monk; making it cost one of your limited slots was crazy.The ki->spell conversion here is much more reasonable than the original one. Easier to remember too. I believe you mentioned in a previous comment that none of the spells listed have expensive components so I'll skip past the ignoring material components step.I like the inclusion of non-western elements here. I could see myself filling in other slots depending on my setting.Elemental Strike: I feel like Force is an odd pick for Metal; but I can't think of something better for Earth to make it make sense (can't just do Earth: Bludgeoning because that's already what unarmed attacks deal).Elemental Flurry is a great feature but I agree with moving it to this late in the class.Does casting Elemental Avatar consume ki points like normal attunement spellcasting?

I think it's a solid improvement without adding complexity (in fact it removes quite a bit of it). Interested to see the final versions of Metal and Wood.



*Spoiler: Berserker*
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Wait this is me.


*Spoiler: Champion* 
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Focusing on weapon fighting styles as a Fighter subclass is a great idea. The Champion was pretty bland; this will let you increase their interest without losing their "a whole bunch of passive increases" status.

I can definitely see myself picking different Signature Weapons at different times, but I feel like I'm usually going to be camping on GWF/Reliable or Archery/True depending on my first fighting style I chose.Letting Remarkable Athlete improve trained skills too makes good sense. The climbing and swimming speed are pretty solid but not game breaking. An alternative would be to say "The distance you climb or swim when you make an ability check is doubled, up to a maximum of your walking speed.", letting the player use their Remarkable Athlete active feature more often. Might be too narrow though.


Archery Expert definitely makes me want to use a bow _all the time_. Crossbow Expert, Heavy Crossbow: True Weapon, and Archery Expert gives me a +3 to attack rolls and a +1 to damage that I get to maximize for free once per turn on a 1d10. On top of which, I have the best range a weapon can have while simultaneously suffering no penalties for attacking adjacent foes.Why does Dueling make the requirements more restrictive than baseline dueling? I guess -1 AC for 10 foot move speed is a pretty fair tradeoff but most of the other styles give straight benefits.Two Weapon Fighting Expert is pretty nice. Goes a lot of the way toward making Dual Wielding viable. I would maybe add a function to it that lets you swap in off-hand attacks during your Extra Attack so it's a little bit easier to trigger (right now it's basically conditional on your single bonus action attack).
Force of Will and Survivor are pretty cool, no complaints.



I think this subclass could do with some number crunching, but overall it seems good. Seems _fun_, even the options that I know aren't as mathematically good I would want to experiment with. It would be cool if eventually they got a second Signature Weapon with the caveat that both the type of weapon and the ability chosen must be different from the first weapon. Right now I'm inclined to pick "safe" options because I don't know what kind of fight I'm up against. Defensive, Distracting, and Sweeping are best suited to certain situations (Defensive maybe less so) so I'm not likely to pick them unless I already know what the day holds when I finish my long rest. But if I got a backup Signature Weapon I could pick one of the "all-around" options (like Glaive: Sweeping as my backup to Maul:Reliable).



*Spoiler: Soulknife*
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Been a while since we had a variant subclass that fit under multiple classes. It's a design space that I'm surprised official content hasn't experimented with more (I know we had one UA that used it for Arcane Magic but they abandoned it pretty fast).

Mind Blade: I like the writing here. One quibble is that no existing Light weapon deals more than 1d6 damage. It mostly matters for the rogue and two-weapon fighter, since the monk doesn't really like to dual wield anyway (though until they hit Martial Arts 1d8 it's marginally better than making an unarmed attack). But the rogue suddenly can get the benefits of both a rapiier (damage) and a shortsword (extra attempts to sneak attack) at the same time. Probably balanced by the set-up time required for it.Archetypal features: All ways to mesh the Mind Blade with existing class features. Seems fine.With Annihilating Blade, do you get both Wis and Str/Dex to damage or does the Wis replace the Str/Dex?Psychic Fighting Style: Rogues are reaching the point of drooling; they can dual wield d8 weapons, have 2-weapon fighting, and not sacrifice sneak attack OR an ability score increase for dual wielder? Other than that seems reasonable, even monks have a couple options in there they can grab without feeling wasted.Psychic Parry looks fun, but completely negating an attack against you once per round is pretty crazy.Improved Mind Blade: 1d10/2d6 for a Light Weapon is too much (especially since to get this they pretty much _have_ to go through fighter and can pick up TWF. I would say dropping Light but keeping Finesse would be reasonable.Psychic Bladestorm: I think in one of your edits you lost the part that specifies when you get this feature. Is it 6th subclass feature? Whenever you happen to have Soulknife from all three classes? I think it should cost Action Surge to activate also to tie it into the Fighter; it costs a Monk Resource and scales with a Rogue Feature, but Fighter is just there to provide...Extra Attack 3 if you are really high level? I guess Action Surge is a pretty attractive choice with this feature already, though, so making it cost your surge to go off is not ideal either.
I have a couple struck out bullets in here; I forgot to account for collapsing the mind blade being a bonus action when I was considering the implications of Light on the mind blade. I'm still a little skeptical but significantly less so now.

I think it covers all the important bits of the 3rd edition Soulknife while embracing the identities of all three classes it's attached to and 5e's general structure. This is pretty good, other than possibly being really min-maxable (but even then only at high levels where min-maxing usually consists of "get the Wish spell, twice if able").



*Spoiler: Alchemist Artificer*
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Noooo. I saw the original Artificer Alchemist and briefly worried that all of my alchemy subsystem work would be wasted until it turned out to be really...sad. Now you're going to come in here and make it good and my work will _actually_ be wasted. (I kid, obviously).

Alchemical Mixes should probably specify that it has a minimum number of uses (obviously anyone who manages to get zero or negative has gone horribly wrong, but it's traditional).Healing Balm seems to be the only Level 3 Mix that doesn't improve at level 9, is that intentional? It gets a pretty big jump at 15 in its current form.Quick Alchemy: Getting to use your iconic feature more often is good. I think it comes late enough that it isn't going to break anything in twain.Alchemy Mastery: A solid feature, but maybe not a true capstone (even if some of those potions are really good). Still, the Artificer doesn't really get subclass capstones so maybe it's in order that way.

Overall, I think this does what the alchemist needed most, which was give it more control over its main feature. It also added variety and leaned into the potion side of things, which works well in my book.



*Spoiler: Eldritch Knight*
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From your introduction, I think we might have different ideas about the play fantasy of the Eldritch Knight. To me, it's a mage-battler with a sword in one hand and arcane fire leaking from the other, who swings at close up foes and launches spells from their off-hand. Yours seems to be a warrior who infuses their equipment with spells. I've tried to write my feedback according to your intent, not my vision.
Martial Magic is fine, but I'm unclear on how it affects area spells (specifically ones like Fireball where changing the range to Self means you are included in the area of effect).Spellcasting Focus works for the goal, but keep in mind that this duplicates part of War Caster. The other two bullet points of War Caster are almost certainly still worth it for this archetype though so it's not going to make the feat worthless.Sidebar: I think this is a little bit clumsy. You could probably change the wording on Martial Magic to make it a little simpler. An attempt by me that probably needs to be adjusted: "When you cast an Eldritch Knight spell that targets one or more creatures other than yourself, the range at which you can target that creature is reduced to 5 feet. When you cast an Eldritch Knight spell that affects an area, that area must be centered on you, regardless of the spell's normal range. All spell attack rolls with Eldritch Knight spells are treated as melee spell attack rolls with a reach of 5 feet. If a spell would affect sequential targets, such as Green Flame Blade, only the initial target must be within 5 feet of you. Spells that affect multiple targets simultaneously or independently, such as Searing Ray or Magic Missile, must have all targets within 5 feet of you at the time of casting."Weapon Bond: Limiting this to a melee weapon kinda makes sense, but it does lock this fighter into being only one type of fighter. The ability to cast spells while attacking is very nice, definitely something that meshes well with your design space, but letting you get your whole attack routine every time you have enough spell attacks is a little too strong (see my notes on Eldritch Flurry). Limiting this to dealing weapon damage 1/turn but allowing you to increase the weapon's damage by the level of the spell slot used to cast the spell might let you balance the two (Scorching Ray is 1 weapon attack at +2 normal damage plus the fire damage, then 2 "spell attacks" using your Strength/Dex that only deal the fire damage, instead of 2 (eventually three) full weapon attacks plus the full damage of Scorching Ray.) It also harshly limits the attractiveness of big chunk spells compared to beam spam spells.Battle Surge: The feature's name and the feature's effect don't really mesh. By the wording, you can't choose yourself for this feature, which means that area spells centered on you still harm you normally unless you are excluded in the spell description.Eldritch Flurry: Seems fine. Lets you really use Battle Surge and Weapon Bond effectively with cantrips. Might be a bit much though; using Shocking Grasp you've got the same attack routine as any other fighter subclass but with +1d8 lightning damage on every hit, and the ability to remove reactions from every target you hit. That's huge, fighters are already powerhouses for sustained damage, and since you treat those attacks as normal weapon attacks, GWF/GWM can _still_ apply to them.Eldritch Strike: A nice way to boost saving throw spells, but it comes 7 levels after a much more potent boost to attack roll spells. That said, Saving Throw spells tend to be much more powerful on their own, which might cover some of the distance. Disadvantaging Hold Person/Monster, Blindness/Deafness, or even Slow can drastically change the course of a fight.Arcane Riposte: Other than Counterspell and Shield, what spells can trigger this? It seems pretty narrow, which is fine for an Optional feature.Improved Eldritch Strike: This is a pretty nice boost to Eldritch Strike. Getting one weapon attack in isn't going to outpace Flurry, but it lets you keep up a little better when you have 3-4 attacks per round but still want to drop a Save or Disable on an enemy.

Sorry if my feedback is a little wordy. There's a lot to cover here. All in all, I think you've well represented your "spells as psuedo-maneuvers" ideal here, but the class is simply too powerful across the board.




*Spoiler: Assassin*
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The old Assassin was clunky but functional. Hopefully you trimmed some of the clunk and kept some of the murder.

Assassinate: This is a good example of trimming clunk. The old one was highly unreliable and surprised is a tricky condition that a lot of tables misuse in my experience. This one is clean and always helpful.I can't believe you've created an explicit "two gnomes in a trenchcoat" mechanic for this subclass. I _can_ believe how delighted that makes me. Mechanically, I think this is fine. It's nicer than the "week to establish a false identity" option which felt more like an espionage thing than an assassination thing (not that there isn't significant overlap in the two trope-o-spheres).Exfiltration Expertise: The only weird thing here is that it happens passively without your input. I suggest tying this to Cunning Action or granting the rogue a reaction they can use when an ally would provoke an opportunity attack to make it feel more like the Rogue is directing their allies in how to get away. At the very least this should be limited to allies the Rogue can perceive and/or require the Rogue to be conscious (like a paladin aura). Nitpicking aside, this is a really fun feature (and the old Impostor feature once again felt very espionage and not very assassin).Death Strike: The new wording is identical to Assassinate's new wording, but that's still fine. Once per combat is not going to break the world in half.

Overall, this class stayed closer to its base identity and mechanics than most, which was _better_ because you applied the grease to the squeaky wheels while leaving the good stuff intact. I feel like you stayed closer to the identity of the assassin while you were at it as well.



*Spoiler: Sun Soul (Amechra)*
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You took a slightly different tack with this one than the source material. I think it's internally consistent and fits well within the base class though.

Ring the Golden Bell: I think this is a bit expensive. You might consider making the initial cost your Bonus Action or buffing the baseline effects. When I get this feature, I could easily burn all three of my ki in one  round just trying to do an ordinary routine (1: Golden Bell, 2: Flurry, 3: Pick _one_ of those attacks to deal a little extra radiant damage).Brushing Aside Sunbeams: A nice feature. I'd like to see a similar feature on other monk subclasses (Shadows Monk and Four Elements for example thematically fit). I'd give an alternative benefit for if you reduce the damage to zero (this could be another way to make Ring the Golden Bell more usable; "Instead of throwing the spell back when you reduce the damage to zero, you may gain the benefits of Ring the Golden Bell until the end of your next turn. You do not need to spend ki points to gain this benefit.")Searing Arc Sweep: An interesting variation, but I think it's worth it. I could do 3/1/1 attacks to three different creatures this way, or attack 6 different creatures in a single round, if I understand it right? Even at its best, it's not much better (nor worse) than Burning Hands, but it's more...monk.Step of the Sun: Interesting use of light levels for inhibiting your movement. I guess if you have Golden Bell active you pretty much can go anywhere that isn't magically dark, but hey you can do that with an actual _torch_ too.Crackling Solar Aura: At this point I'd rather see a way for the monk to dump more of their now-abundant ki points than a way to conserve them. I think the reactive damage should probably require a Reaction if it's going to be always-up (or make this feature have a limited duration). Natural Sunlight is a pretty niche benefit, and it's not like monk is your only option for that at this point so I'm okay with that staying where it is.


Overall: Definitely a fun tradition. I could just as easily see this as an entirely distinct tradition from the existing Sun Soul, mechanically (as in I wouldn't be bothered if two players in the same game wanted to use the two different variations because in essence they don't fill the same role), but it still sits within the theme. My only concern is that at low levels it's hard to use the features (locking you out of basic monk features like Flurry and Stunning Strike), and at high levels (especially after Crackling Solar Aura it's almost too easy.



*Spoiler: Wild Magic*
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The perennial favorite of the insane and the zany. If Bugs Bunny were a subclass, it would look a lot like Wild Magic Sorcerer.

Wild Magic Surge: The table's effects are pretty chaotic, but keeping this limited to a bonus action means that (unless you do something dumb like turn yourself into a plant) you can still at least use a cantrip if you don't get a desired result. Tides of Chaos is a big loss for low level Wild Sorcerers, as well. It also doesn't address what I consider one of the Wild Magic Sorcerer's biggest problems, which is that the _DM_ gets to decide when your features happen.Roll with the Tides: Both effects of this are excellent fun. When you willingly accept the surge does that mean you roll on the table or that you choose to roll the d20? Other than that, I think the second effect should maybe be limited to 1/short rest.Controlled Mayhem: A slightly better variant of Controlled Chaos but with a cost. Combined with the Wild Surge spell it opens up a lot of options for a sorcerer to fish for the beneficial parts of the table.Unleashed: Hmm. That's a lot of resources to control your wild surges. I could now dump up to 36 points into my Wild Surge throughout a day. Especially combined with the free metamagic effect of Roll with the Tides this could get out of hand.


I don't really have an overall that isn't going to just be a repeat of what I said in the individual feature notes. I think it embraces the Wild Magic Sorcerer as it is while recreating it so it can feel more inside the player's choice.



*Spoiler: Sun Soul (BerzerkerUnit)*
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Seems like it's an attempt to fit the Sun Soul more cleanly into the tempo of monastic traditions that followed it? I can get behind that.

Illuminating Wisdom: Yeah this makes sense. Neither cantrip is going to be out of hand but it seems like monks who manipulate sun energy should be able to make lights for themselves.Radiant Bolts: Hmm. It sure looks an awful lot like Smite (nothing wrong with it, ki points are a very different resource.) It's a little odd to see a spell attack with a close/long range but AFAIK it's not disallowed by the rules (might be a couple spells I'm forgetting the details on that actually have it already) and it's perfectly understandable.Sky-Crossing Step: 10 minutes is a pretty long time, but the restrictions do hold it back somewhat. Hmm. I think maybe a shorter duration or fewer uses is still necessary though.Sunset Soul Explosion: Why not limit this to proficiency bonus ki spent like Radiant Bolts? I'm curious why you chose to limit this to +3 instead of giving it a scaling limit like Radiant Bolts (+Proficiency). As it stands, it's slightly better baseline than the original version, but the original can scale up to 8d6 (avg 28) for 3 ki, this one is limited to 5d8 (avg 22.5) for the same cost. Later on it almost catches up when it goes to 5d10 (avg 27.5), but at that point you have the next feature in the list.Glorious Heliocentric Countenance: Wow. This is like a paladin-capstone level transformation. Fortunately it has enough of a cost behind it that I think it's okay to leave as-is. Only thing I would add is that you shed light. It's weird to think you go all glowy with power but don't mechanically produce any light.


Overall, I think this fits pretty well into the fantasy laid down by the original Sun Soul, and it makes a lot of the sloppier mechanics scale better to your level instead of having a sort of static cost and only scaling based on how many ki points you can afford to dump into them. The loss of Searing Arc Strike is a little sad but Sky-Crossing Step is awesome enough that I don't mind waiting to get my monk AoE a few extra levels.

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## BerzerkerUnit

> Feedback for everyone! It only took me a week to get to it!
> 
> *Spoiler: Sun Soul (BerzerkerUnit)*
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> 
> 
> Seems like it's an attempt to fit the Sun Soul more cleanly into the tempo of monastic traditions that followed it? I can get behind that.
> 
> Illuminating Wisdom: Yeah this makes sense. Neither cantrip is going to be out of hand but it seems like monks who manipulate sun energy should be able to make lights for themselves.Radiant Bolts: Hmm. It sure looks an awful lot like Smite (nothing wrong with it, ki points are a very different resource.) It's a little odd to see a spell attack with a close/long range but AFAIK it's not disallowed by the rules (might be a couple spells I'm forgetting the details on that actually have it already) and it's perfectly understandable.Sky-Crossing Step: 10 minutes is a pretty long time, but the restrictions do hold it back somewhat. Hmm. I think maybe a shorter duration or fewer uses is still necessary though.Sunset Soul Explosion: Why not limit this to proficiency bonus ki spent like Radiant Bolts? I'm curious why you chose to limit this to +3 instead of giving it a scaling limit like Radiant Bolts (+Proficiency). As it stands, it's slightly better baseline than the original version, but the original can scale up to 8d6 (avg 28) for 3 ki, this one is limited to 5d8 (avg 22.5) for the same cost. Later on it almost catches up when it goes to 5d10 (avg 27.5), but at that point you have the next feature in the list.Glorious Heliocentric Countenance: Wow. This is like a paladin-capstone level transformation. Fortunately it has enough of a cost behind it that I think it's okay to leave as-is. Only thing I would add is that you shed light. It's weird to think you go all glowy with power but don't mechanically produce any light.
> ...


Aloha,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response!

I reworded Radiant Bolts to make it flashier.  Spend Ki to do extra damage to a target on a hit is subtly different from increasing the damage of an attack by spending a slot on a hit.  The latter is affected by Crits.  The new language makes it seem more like you fire a bolt and if you hit you can send out a hail of additional weak blasts.  These additional blasts don't add your stat mod.

Sky-Crossing Step is a slightly worse version of the level 6 Genie warlock feature Elemental Gift.  I made it worse because the Monk's speed bonus scales it as it goes.  There seems to be an attitude that because the monk gets "run up walls" at 9 or 10, they shouldn't get flight until later and that flight has to be mercilessly short or expensive.  I think that's nonsense.  Run up walls is an always on free boost.  It's still amazing, even if you can fly for an hour a day.

Sunset Soul Explosion: I left it more limited because the base die scales and it does damage on a successful save so I was okay lowering the top end.  I also didn't want to make it too cheap at 1ki per 2 dice, but also didn't want another feature that just EATS your ki.

Added light shedding to GHC.  It's SSJ1, we should all know its SSJ1.  Radiant Bolts upcast is the "Vegeta accomplishes nothing but creating a smokescreen for the target" trope.

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## Old Harry MTX

Thankyou for toy feedbacks!!!




> From your introduction, I think we might have different ideas about the play fantasy of the Eldritch Knight. To me, it's a mage-battler with a sword in one hand and arcane fire leaking from the other, who swings at close up foes and launches spells from their off-hand. Yours seems to be a warrior who infuses their equipment with spells. I've tried to write my feedback according to your intent, not my vision.


Yes, I'm a huge fan of the martial classes, and my goal was to create some sort of 3.5 Warblade, without having to write a whole set of new maneuvers from scratch. Plus, I'm also a huge fan of those general rules that change how an entire skill set works.




> Martial Magic is fine, but I'm unclear on how it affects area spells (specifically ones like Fireball where changing the range to Self means you are included in the area of effect).


Why do you say it's unclear? Nowhere is it indicated that you are not affected, so yes, you are included in the area-of-effect. ^^
This is then resolved at 7th level when you learn Battle Surge. Since the EK has very slow progression of spell slots it should create very little trouble, consider that you don't learn 2nd-level spells up to 7th level of the class, and there are very few 1st level spells with area effects.




> Spellcasting Focus works for the goal, but keep in mind that this duplicates part of War Caster. The other two bullet points of War Caster are almost certainly still worth it for this archetype though so it's not going to make the feat worthless.


You're right, but I always try not to forget that feats are in fact an optional rule.




> Sidebar: I think this is a little bit clumsy. You could probably change the wording on Martial Magic to make it a little simpler. An attempt by me that probably needs to be adjusted: "When you cast an Eldritch Knight spell that targets one or more creatures other than yourself, the range at which you can target that creature is reduced to 5 feet. When you cast an Eldritch Knight spell that affects an area, that area must be centered on you, regardless of the spell's normal range. All spell attack rolls with Eldritch Knight spells are treated as melee spell attack rolls with a reach of 5 feet. If a spell would affect sequential targets, such as Green Flame Blade, only the initial target must be within 5 feet of you. Spells that affect multiple targets simultaneously or independently, such as Searing Ray or Magic Missile, must have all targets within 5 feet of you at the time of casting."


In my experience with the original class I got this mechanic from, there is absolutely no need to specify all of these exceptions, since each spell specifies well what its RANGE is and what its RADIUS is, and only its range is affected by Battle Magic, similar to what the Distant Spell metamagic option does. Green Flame Blade for example, has a range of Self, so it is not altered by Battle Magic in any way.




> Weapon Bond: Limiting this to a melee weapon kinda makes sense, but it does lock this fighter into being only one type of fighter.


I tried to extend the mechanic to ranged attacks as well, but I didn't like the result (probably purely for personal taste), so in the end I opted for something similar to the Battlemaster maneuvers, which are almost all applicable to melee attacks only. After all, the EK can always use a longbow with a lot of attacks, without considering those spells with a large area-of-effect, such as Minute Meteors, Gust of Wind, Color Spray, Lightning Bolt, ...




> The ability to cast spells while attacking is very nice, definitely something that meshes well with your design space, but letting you get your whole attack routine every time you have enough spell attacks is a little too strong (see my notes on Eldritch Flurry). Limiting this to dealing weapon damage 1/turn but allowing you to increase the weapon's damage by the level of the spell slot used to cast the spell might let you balance the two (Scorching Ray is 1 weapon attack at +2 normal damage plus the fire damage, then 2 "spell attacks" using your Strength/Dex that only deal the fire damage, instead of 2 (eventually three) full weapon attacks plus the full damage of Scorching Ray.)


Yes, it is undoubtedly strong, considering the large number of attacks a Fighter can make at high levels, but it is not as off the scale as you might think when you compare it to a Warlock's Eldritch Blast, for example. Sure, the damage output is certainly higher, but it's also limited to melee foes only.

Also, the EK has very few spell slots so, at least until you learn Eldritch Flurry, it shuldn't be very dissimilar to a Paladin's Smite.




> It also harshly limits the attractiveness of big chunk spells compared to beam spam spells.


Yes! It intentional, this subclass want to force you to look at spells froma  different point of view. Glad you notice that!




> Battle Surge: The feature's name and the feature's effect don't really mesh.


HAHAHAHAHA. This is a problem due to the fact that English is not my mother tongue. I wanted to express the idea that spells were "released explosively" directly from the body of the EK. I may have misunderstood the meaning of Surge, which in my language can also be translated as "wave" or "impetus". I accept gladly advices for an alternative!!! ^^




> By the wording, you can't choose yourself for this feature, which means that area spells centered on you still harm you normally unless you are excluded in the spell description.


Mmm, this is weird. The text of this feature is largely taken from Sculpt Spell of the Wizard's school of Evocation, and I'm pretty sure it's meant to include the Wizard himself if he chooses so, since he can see and therefore choose himself among the creatures to apply the effects.

Am I wrong? O_o




> Eldritch Flurry: Seems fine. Lets you really use Battle Surge and Weapon Bond effectively with cantrips. Might be a bit much though; using Shocking Grasp you've got the same attack routine as any other fighter subclass but with +1d8 lightning damage on every hit, and the ability to remove reactions from every target you hit. That's huge, fighters are already powerhouses for sustained damage, and since you treat those attacks as normal weapon attacks, GWF/GWM can _still_ apply to them.


Yes, this is the strongest feature in the class, since it makes Weapon Bond virtually cost-free. If I decide to tweak the class to reduce its damage output, this is definitely the feature I'll change first.




> Eldritch Strike: A nice way to boost saving throw spells, but it comes 7 levels after a much more potent boost to attack roll spells. That said, Saving Throw spells tend to be much more powerful on their own, which might cover some of the distance. Disadvantaging Hold Person/Monster, Blindness/Deafness, or even Slow can drastically change the course of a fight.


Yes, That's nothing more, nothing less than a rewording of the original Eldritch Strike. I changed i t like that to give more the spell-like-maneuver feeling.




> Arcane Riposte: Other than Counterspell and Shield, what spells can trigger this? It seems pretty narrow, which is fine for an Optional feature.


As intended, only these two spells. Absorb Elements, for example, does not activate this feature.




> Improved Eldritch Strike: This is a pretty nice boost to Eldritch Strike. Getting one weapon attack in isn't going to outpace Flurry, but it lets you keep up a little better when you have 3-4 attacks per round but still want to drop a Save or Disable on an enemy.


Yes! Again, it wants to cover the same spot of the original Improved War Magic, and also tie Weapon Bond and Eldrithc Strike togheter.




> Sorry if my feedback is a little wordy. There's a lot to cover here. All in all, I think you've well represented your "spells as psuedo-maneuvers" ideal here, but the class is simply too powerful across the board.


Thankyou again for your feedback! I must say that the class is that strong on purpose, I don't mind daring a little from time to time. At the moment I'm considering possible ways to nerf or replace Eldritch Flurry (maybe keeping it as an optional feature with a big disclaimer), but none of them satisfy me enough.

----------


## ShiningStarling

> The perennial favorite of the insane and the zany. If Bugs Bunny were a subclass, it would look a lot like Wild Magic Sorcerer.
> 
> Wild Magic Surge: The table's effects are pretty chaotic, but keeping this limited to a bonus action means that (unless you do something dumb like turn yourself into a plant) you can still at least use a cantrip if you don't get a desired result. Tides of Chaos is a big loss for low level Wild Sorcerers, as well. It also doesn't address what I consider one of the Wild Magic Sorcerer's biggest problems, which is that the _DM_ gets to decide when your features happen.Roll with the Tides: Both effects of this are excellent fun. When you willingly accept the surge does that mean you roll on the table or that you choose to roll the d20? Other than that, I think the second effect should maybe be limited to 1/short rest.Controlled Mayhem: A slightly better variant of Controlled Chaos but with a cost. Combined with the Wild Surge spell it opens up a lot of options for a sorcerer to fish for the beneficial parts of the table.Unleashed: Hmm. That's a lot of resources to control your wild surges. I could now dump up to 36 points into my Wild Surge throughout a day. Especially combined with the free metamagic effect of Roll with the Tides this could get out of hand.
> 
> 
> I don't really have an overall that isn't going to just be a repeat of what I said in the individual feature notes. I think it embraces the Wild Magic Sorcerer as it is while recreating it so it can feel more inside the player's choice.


Sounds like my goals came through. To answer your question, you roll on the table when you accept a surge, not the d20. Thanks for the feedback! (Side note, since I added so much control later, I wanted the lower level to feel a bit less advantageous.) Also, the DM decides? I was under the impression you rolled every time you cast a spell.

----------


## Twelvetrees

Feedback for the ones I hadn't gotten to before now.

*Spoiler: Eldritch Knight*
Show

*Martial Magic*
How does this work with spells that don't affect creatures, like _dancing lights_?

*Spellcasting Focus*
I hadn't realized this wasn't already a part of Eldritch Knight. Definitely a good addition.

*Weapon Bond*
I'm reminded of 3.5's Duskblade with the changes you've made. It's a different twist on the subclass and one that makes them more formidable in melee. I will admit that I'm having trouble seeing how this isn't the equivalent of moving the original Eldritch Knight's War Magic feature down to 3rd level. They both allow you to use both a cantrip and an attack in the same turn.

*Battle Surge*
This feels like a fix to a problem you created for yourself by making every spell have a range of touch. It's cool to be able to center area of effect spells on yourself and avoid being hit by them, but it's less cool that you must center them on yourself.

*War Magic*
Being limited to cantrips with spell attack rolls limits this much more than the original feature. Still fun, but less flexible.

*Eldritch Flurry*
That's a lot of extra damage. Combine this with something like _fire bolt_ and you're suddenly doing equivalent damage to a Battle Master at will. I'm struggling to see what this adds to the subclass besides more power.

*Eldritch Strike*
This is a better version of the original feature. Can you elaborate on why this was necessary? I don't think I understand what was wrong with the standard feature that you felt it needed improving.

*Arcane Riposte*
What does "deflect an attack using a spell with a casting time of a reaction" mean? I feel like this is specifically meant to be used with _shield_ and if that is the case, I think it would be simpler to say "if you use _shield_" instead.

I'll also note that in order to _counterspell_ you now have to be in touch range of the person casting the spell, which makes it harder to cast.

*Improved Eldritch Strike*
What does this mean? Does this allow you to do something like cast _fire bolt_ and _burning hands_ as part of the same action?


*Overall Impression*
I can't help but feel like this is a more complicated version of the paladin. It's got the same basic structure of attacking and using a spell slot for more damage. There are certainly differences, but it treads similar ground.


*Spoiler: Wild Sorcerer*
Show

*Wild Surge*
Comparing this with Tides of Chaos, this has a much higher cost to use for what appears to be little benefit. You can't quicken a spell on the same turn or cast anything other than a cantrip. You're also using an extra spell slot for what could potentially be a negative effect.

What am I missing here that makes this preferable to Tides of Chaos?

*Roll with the Tides*
The first half of this feature appears to activity conflict with the point of playing a Wild Sorcerer. Why are you paying sorcery points to avoid using your class features?

The second half of this feature feels like a way to add Tides of Chaos back into the subclass, but with a different twist. I'd enjoy being able to use Wild Magic Surges in this way.

*Controlled Mayhem*
This feels roughly equivalent to the original ability.

*Unleashed*
I envision most of these Wild sorcery points being used on Controlled Mayhem, which feels counter to the point of playing a Wild Sorcerer. The more control you have over Wild Magic Surge, the less wild it becomes.

I really like being able to trigger more than one surge at once - that's amazing!


*Overall Impression*
I don't understand some of the design decisions you made, especially the ones that run counter to using your class features or controlling them, so I think I missed something major with your design intent.

This feels like a less wild version of the Wild Magic sorcerer to me.


*Spoiler: Way of the Sun Soul (BerzerkerUnit)*
Show

*Illuminating Wisdom*
Mostly a fluff feature, but it's delightfully apt for this subclass.

*Radiant Bolts*
Oh, whoa, this encourages a monk with this subclass to make Wisdom their highest score. That's interesting.

Does the barrage of bolts have to target the same creature? I can't quite tell right now. I'd also suggest limiting this additional barrage of bolts to once per turn, otherwise this feature allows a monk to dump all of their ki points in one turn for a ton of extra damage. A fifth level monk, for example, could throw two radiant bolts, then two more with flurry of blows and then probably sink their remaining four ki points into barrages of bolts for the attacks that hit for a total of 8d6 + 4x Wisdom modifier damage to a single creature. They would then be completely out of ki points.

*Sky-Crossing Step*
I ought to point out that this is better than the same-level feature of the much-maligned Twilight Domain. A simple fix would be adding concentration to keep this flight active.

Treating different light levels as terrain is downright awesome.

*Sunset Soul Explosion*
This is a fairly straightforward fix to Searing Sunburst, so I'm a fan.

*Glorious Heliocentric Countenance*
Oh, this feels like a paladin capstone feature. Does the extra radiant damage on unarmed strikes apply to your Radiant Bolts?

There's a lot going on here, but it's mostly circumstantial. My guess is that it hits about the right balance for a 17th level monk feature.

*Overall Impression*
I like a lot of this. Radiant Bolts allows a little too much ki to be expended all at once, but other than that, this works well.


*Spoiler: Soulknife*
Show

I don't think I've ever seen a subclass that can be shared between classes before. I like that possibility, but it requires some careful thought to make it work well.

*Mind Blade*
How does concentration work with two mind blades? Do both disappear if concentration is lost?

Automatic critical hits every other turn with sneak attack eclipses the main draw of Assassin at the same level for a rogue. That's powerful.

*Way of the Soulknife*
This doesn't give a monk much more utility than they already had. Constantly having to resummon mind blades as a bonus action also conflicts with the many other options monks have for their bonus actions.

*Soulknife Fighter*
Summoning mind blades quicker allows for faster crits. I also suspect this subclass will get more crits than a Champion fighter, but that's not saying much.

*Soulknife Rogue*
Being able to summon a Mind Blade and use Cunning Action is really nice. This seems fine.

*Meditations*
None of these stand out to me as exciting and attention-grabbing. They're all useful, but in small, incremental ways.


_Annihilating Blade_
This works best for monks, but a high Wisdom fighter could do a decent amount of extra damage with this. Doesn't work so well for rogues. Not much to say here, it's a damage boost.

_Arsenal of the Mind_
Neither rogue nor monk want this. Fighters do, but 7th level is pretty late to switch to using a different style of weapon. I suspect this is meant to have synergy with specific feats, but that isn't going to be particularly clear to players unless they know the rules of the game quite well.

_Concussive Collapse_
I like shoving foes around, this seems like fun.

_Energy Blade_
Another damage boosting option. This seems really similar to Annihilating Blade.

_Force Shield_
Most of the time, using an actual shield is more useful. Monks and rogues don't have shield proficiency, so they might like it at the start of a fight, but the extra AC will disappear once they lose concentration and it takes too long to bring back up to really be useful to manifest in the middle of a fight.

_Psionic Power_
Magic Initiate as a class feature isn't bad, but not getting it until somewhere between 6th and 9th level is a little late.

_Psychic Parry_
More useful for fighters and monks than rogues, who have uncanny dodge. For a defensive-focused character, this is awesome.

_Psychic Pin_
Seems fine to me.

_Soul Siphon_
This doesn't seem like enough temporary hit points to be worth taking. Collapsing the mind blade for a few extra temporary hit points instead of getting an automatic critical feels like an poor tradeoff.

_Speed of Thought_
Useful for fighters and maybe rogues. Monks usually have speed to spare.

*Improved Mind Blade*
Okay, more crits, similar to a Champion fighter.

*Psychic Bladestorm*
My biases are showing here, but this reminds me too much of 3.5's multiclassing builds where you had to plan your character's entire 1-20 path to be effective. It also breaks my suspension of disbelief in the game world because it explicitly recognizes game features as being necessary to have this ability.

It does lots of damage, but that's about it.


*Overall Impression*
This pushes players hard in the direction of multiclassing "correctly" and has a lot of features that improve combat capabilities. This isn't my cup of tea, but I've no doubt that some players would love it.


*Spoiler: Way of the Elements*
Show

*Elemental Initiate*
That's a lot of cantrips that provide a lot of utility.

*Elemental Attunements*
This is a lot in addition to the cantrips. I'm worried that this subclass is frontloaded and ripe for multiclassing out of.

Attunement of Fire seems the most useful - it allows you to focus your damage on a single target and has access to area spells as well. I'm having trouble coming up with a situation where I wouldn't want to have it as one of my Elemental Attunements.

*Elemental Strike*
More damage on a monk is pretty good. Pairing Wood and Fire could result in a lot of temporary hit points. Fangs of the Fire Snake plus Wood Elemental strike would be 1d6 + 2d10 + 1d4 + Dex mod temporary hit points at 6th level, somewhere around 21 temporary hit points.

*Elemental Flurry*
Ooh. This is like an Eldritch Knight's Improved War Magic, but seven levels earlier and two attacks instead of one. This might be a little strong.

*Elemental Avatar*
Yeah, the investiture spells make sense here. Being able to cast any one of them is a nice bit of utility, too.


*Overall Impression*
This is a good improvement over the original but might be a little front-loaded. I really like the elemental attunements giving access to thematic lists.







> *Spoiler: Assassin*
> Show
> 
> 
> The old Assassin was clunky but functional. Hopefully you trimmed some of the clunk and kept some of the murder.
> 
> Assassinate: This is a good example of trimming clunk. The old one was highly unreliable and surprised is a tricky condition that a lot of tables misuse in my experience. This one is clean and always helpful.I can't believe you've created an explicit "two gnomes in a trenchcoat" mechanic for this subclass. I _can_ believe how delighted that makes me. Mechanically, I think this is fine. It's nicer than the "week to establish a false identity" option which felt more like an espionage thing than an assassination thing (not that there isn't significant overlap in the two trope-o-spheres).Exfiltration Expertise: The only weird thing here is that it happens passively without your input. I suggest tying this to Cunning Action or granting the rogue a reaction they can use when an ally would provoke an opportunity attack to make it feel more like the Rogue is directing their allies in how to get away. At the very least this should be limited to allies the Rogue can perceive and/or require the Rogue to be conscious (like a paladin aura). Nitpicking aside, this is a really fun feature (and the old Impostor feature once again felt very espionage and not very assassin).Death Strike: The new wording is identical to Assassinate's new wording, but that's still fine. Once per combat is not going to break the world in half.
> 
> Overall, this class stayed closer to its base identity and mechanics than most, which was _better_ because you applied the grease to the squeaky wheels while leaving the good stuff intact. I feel like you stayed closer to the identity of the assassin while you were at it as well.


Thanks for taking a look and glad you enjoyed the "two gnomes in a trenchcoat" feature!  :Small Big Grin: 

Tying Exfiltration Expertise to Cunning Action could work. I'd rather not make it consume reactions because rogues tend to have really good uses for their reactions already. Paladin auras were definitely the inspiration for this, but I glanced at Oath of the Ancients for what sort of wording to use and it looks like that's the one paladin aura that doesn't require you to be conscious to function.

I'll fiddle around and see if I can come up with something better.

----------


## MoleMage

> In my experience with the original class I got this mechanic from, there is absolutely no need to specify all of these exceptions, since each spell specifies well what its RANGE is and what its RADIUS is, and only its range is affected by Battle Magic, similar to what the Distant Spell metamagic option does. Green Flame Blade for example, has a range of Self, so it is not altered by Battle Magic in any way.
> 
> *The more specific wording would account for cases like you had with Dimension Door (which doesn't target a creature). You don't have to provide examples, it's just something I do in my writing.*
> 
> HAHAHAHAHA. This is a problem due to the fact that English is not my mother tongue. I wanted to express the idea that spells were "released explosively" directly from the body of the EK. I may have misunderstood the meaning of Surge, which in my language can also be translated as "wave" or "impetus". I accept gladly advices for an alternative!!! ^^
> 
> *You aren't wrong for the translation. There's a sense in English of a surge being an upswell of energy but without the explosive release part. Or maybe it's just me. Language is funny that way sometimes.*
> 
> Mmm, this is weird. The text of this feature is largely taken from Sculpt Spell of the Wizard's school of Evocation, and I'm pretty sure it's meant to include the Wizard himself if he chooses so, since he can see and therefore choose himself among the creatures to apply the effects.
> ...


My responses in bold so I didn't have to break up the quote.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> My responses in bold so I didn't have to break up the quote.


Thankyou again for your answers! I'll fix Battle Surge, I assumed it could include the caster as well.

UPDATE: I have also replaced Eldritch Flurry with a feature more in line with the standard levels of power (but keeping it as an optional feature, with a big disclaimer). Take a look at it if you want!

★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★



> Feedback for the ones I hadn't gotten to before now.


Thankyou for your feedbacks too!




> *Martial Magic*
> How does this work with spells that don't affect creatures, like _dancing lights_?


In the case of spells like _dancing lights_ or _wall of force_, you cast them targeting one of the squares you can reach within Touch range, and then you can extend the spell's effects as you wish within the limits set by the spell's text. For example in the case of _wall of force_, the limit is only to create the panels contiguous to each other, while with _dancing lights_ you can move the lights up to 60 feet with your bonus action. For further clarity, I could specify that Martial Magic only reduces range at cast time.




> *Spellcasting Focus*
> I hadn't realized this wasn't already a part of Eldritch Knight. Definitely a good addition.


Yes, I know. That's weird...




> *Battle Surge*
> This feels like a fix to a problem you created for yourself by making every spell have a range of touch. It's cool to be able to center area of effect spells on yourself and avoid being hit by them, but it's less cool that you must center them on yourself.


However, you couldn't cast them further than you can reach within Touch range, so it's more of a note of flavor that gives the feeling of the spell being "exploded" directly from your body, like a nova.




> *War Magic*
> Being limited to cantrips with spell attack rolls limits this much more than the original feature. Still fun, but less flexible.


Yes, nothing more, nothing less. All aimed at giving the spells the feeling of a maneuver.




> *Eldritch Flurry*
> That's a lot of extra damage. Combine this with something like _fire bolt_ and you're suddenly doing equivalent damage to a Battle Master at will. I'm struggling to see what this adds to the subclass besides more power.


The idea was to find an alternative for the original War Magic, which would allow to overcome the slow spell slots progression of the EK, transforming all the cantrip with spell attack rolls into a sort of Eldritch Blast. The result is far too strong, but I liked the mechanics so much that I decided to leave it as an optional feature, adding a big disclaimer. I'm not ruling out that I could recycle it for a Warlock subclass! ^^




> *Eldritch Strike*
> This is a better version of the original feature. Can you elaborate on why this was necessary? I don't think I understand what was wrong with the standard feature that you felt it needed improving.


Again, it's all about giving even more of the feel of maneuver-like spells




> *Arcane Riposte*
> What does "deflect an attack using a spell with a casting time of a reaction" mean? I feel like this is specifically meant to be used with _shield_ and if that is the case, I think it would be simpler to say "if you use _shield_" instead.
> 
> I'll also note that in order to _counterspell_ you now have to be in touch range of the person casting the spell, which makes it harder to cast.


Yes, this feature is triggered with _counterspell_ and _shield_ (for example, _absorb elements_ doesn't work with it). I have not explicitly specified these two spells because I want to leave room to possible new spells, official or homebrewed.




> *Improved Eldritch Strike*
> What does this mean? Does this allow you to do something like cast _fire bolt_ and _burning hands_ as part of the same action?


I don't understand where this misunderstanding comes from. O_o
This feature simply allows you to consider the Eldritch Strike's attack roll you make before casting a spell as if it were a spell attack roll, and therefore convertible into a melee attack via Weapon Bond. Basically, it allows you to make a melee attack even if the spell doesn't originally have a spell attack roll, or one more if the spell has fewer spell attack rolls than the number of attacks you can make during an Attack action, but you can't convert it to a cantrip using War Magic since you're not making an Attack action.




> *Overall Impression*
> I can't help but feel like this is a more complicated version of the paladin. It's got the same basic structure of attacking and using a spell slot for more damage. There are certainly differences, but it treads similar ground.


I tend to see it more as an alternative to the Battlemaster, with more versatility given by the Wizard's spells. Indeed it may seem complicated at first glance, but from what is my experience with the original class from which I took part of the features, I assure you that 5 minutes are enough to get used to the mechanics. ^^

----------


## nickl_2000

Responses in bold to avoid breaking the quote.




> Feedback for everyone! It only took me a week to get to it!
> 
> Noooo. I saw the original Artificer Alchemist and briefly worried that all of my alchemy subsystem work would be wasted until it turned out to be really...sad. Now you're going to come in here and make it good and my work will _actually_ be wasted. (I kid, obviously).
> 
> *  Not to worry, this is definitely not a replacement for a full alchemy system.  I would love to see what you have for it though!  And feel free to steal ideas from my mixes if you need additional alchemical mixes in the system.*
> 
> Alchemical Mixes should probably specify that it has a minimum number of uses (obviously anyone who manages to get zero or negative has gone horribly wrong, but it's traditional). *Yup, agreed.  Done*Healing Balm seems to be the only Level 3 Mix that doesn't improve at level 9, is that intentional? It gets a pretty big jump at 15 in its current form. *This was an oversight.  I have it doing 3d4 at 9 and 5d4 at 15.*Quick Alchemy: Getting to use your iconic feature more often is good. I think it comes late enough that it isn't going to break anything in twain.Alchemy Mastery: A solid feature, but maybe not a true capstone (even if some of those potions are really good). Still, the Artificer doesn't really get subclass capstones so maybe it's in order that way.
> 
> Overall, I think this does what the alchemist needed most, which was give it more control over its main feature. It also added variety and leaned into the potion side of things, which works well in my book.


Thanks for the review and taking a look.  Made some minor modifications based on your recommendations.

----------


## Twelvetrees

> I don't understand where this misunderstanding comes from. O_o


*Shrug* I'm having to try to figure out the interactions between three class features. Let me see if explaining my reading of it in detail makes this more clear.


"Starting at 18th level, the attack roll of your Eldritch Strike feature..." - Now I need to go see what this attack roll is and how it works."Before you use your action to cast a spell, you can make a melee attack roll with a bonded weapon as part of the same action" - I've now found the attack roll from Eldritch Strike."...becomes eligible to be chosen as a spell attack roll..." - Got it. The melee attack is now a spell attack."...for the purpose of converting it into a weapon attack using your Weapon Bond feature." - Now I ought to see what Weapon Bond does to spell attacks."each time you have to make a spell attack roll, you can instead make a melee weapon attack roll." - Wait. Weapon Bond just turns the spell attack back into a melee weapon attack? Why is that good? It appears I just turned a melee weapon attack into a spell attack and then back into a melee weapon attack. This doesn't interact at all with the spell you are casting using your action as part of Eldritch Strike.

I don't understand how you get to this point:



> ...it allows you to make a melee attack even if the spell doesn't originally have a spell attack roll, or one more if the spell has fewer spell attack rolls than the number of attacks you can make during an Attack action, but you can't convert it to a cantrip using War Magic since you're not making an Attack action.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> *Shrug* I'm having to try to figure out the interactions between three class features. Let me see if explaining my reading of it in detail makes this more clear.
> 
> 
> "Starting at 18th level, the attack roll of your Eldritch Strike feature..." - Now I need to go see what this attack roll is and how it works."Before you use your action to cast a spell, you can make a melee attack roll with a bonded weapon as part of the same action" - I've now found the attack roll from Eldritch Strike."...becomes eligible to be chosen as a spell attack roll..." - Got it. The melee attack is now a spell attack."...for the purpose of converting it into a weapon attack using your Weapon Bond feature." - Now I ought to see what Weapon Bond does to spell attacks."each time you have to make a spell attack roll, you can instead make a melee weapon attack roll." - Wait. Weapon Bond just turns the spell attack back into a melee weapon attack? Why is that good? It appears I just turned a melee weapon attack into a spell attack and then back into a melee weapon attack. This doesn't interact at all with the spell you are casting using your action as part of Eldritch Strike.
> 
> I don't understand how you get to this point:


Haha, don't worry^^

Your reasoning runs smoothly, except that you missed the fundamental point, which is the mechanics on which the whole subclass is based:
Improved Eldritch Strike: "Starting at 18th level, the attack roll of your Eldritch Strike feature..."Eldritch Strike: "Before you use your action to cast a spell, you can make a melee attack roll with a bonded weapon as part of the same action"Improved Eldritch Strike: "...becomes eligible to be chosen as a spell attack roll for the purpose of converting it into a weapon attack using your Weapon Bond feature."Weapon Bond: "...when you use your action to cast a spell, you can choose a number of those _(of the spell, ed)_ spell attack rolls before resolving them, up to the number of attacks you can perform during an Attack Action. For each successful hit, add the damage of your weapon to that hit as well. Treat them as normal weapon attacks."
So basically you have a feature (Weapon Bond) that allows you to convert a number of spell attack rolls into full melee weapon attack, a feature (Eldritch Strike) that allows you to add an attack roll before a spell (for reasons...), and another feature (Improved Eldritch Strike) that allows you to consider this attack roll suitable for being converted into a full melee weapon attack via Weapon Bond.

I was just curious as to why you thought this would allow you to cast two cantrips at a time^^

----------


## sengmeng

> Feedback for everyone! It only took me a week to get to it!
> *Spoiler: Soulknife*
> Show
> 
> 
> Been a while since we had a variant subclass that fit under multiple classes. It's a design space that I'm surprised official content hasn't experimented with more (I know we had one UA that used it for Arcane Magic but they abandoned it pretty fast).
> 
> Mind Blade: I like the writing here. One quibble is that no existing Light weapon deals more than 1d6 damage. It mostly matters for the rogue and two-weapon fighter, since the monk doesn't really like to dual wield anyway (though until they hit Martial Arts 1d8 it's marginally better than making an unarmed attack). But the rogue suddenly can get the benefits of both a rapiier (damage) and a shortsword (extra attempts to sneak attack) at the same time. Probably balanced by the set-up time required for it.Archetypal features: All ways to mesh the Mind Blade with existing class features. Seems fine.With Annihilating Blade, do you get both Wis and Str/Dex to damage or does the Wis replace the Str/Dex? *Yes, made more explicit with edits*Psychic Fighting Style: Rogues are reaching the point of drooling; they can dual wield d8 weapons, have 2-weapon fighting, and not sacrifice sneak attack OR an ability score increase for dual wielder? Other than that seems reasonable, even monks have a couple options in there they can grab without feeling wasted.Psychic Parry looks fun, but completely negating an attack against you once per round is pretty crazy.Improved Mind Blade: 1d10/2d6 for a Light Weapon is too much (especially since to get this they pretty much _have_ to go through fighter and can pick up TWF. I would say dropping Light but keeping Finesse would be reasonable.Psychic Bladestorm: I think in one of your edits you lost the part that specifies when you get this feature. Is it 6th subclass feature? Whenever you happen to have Soulknife from all three classes? I think it should cost Action Surge to activate also to tie it into the Fighter; it costs a Monk Resource and scales with a Rogue Feature, but Fighter is just there to provide...Extra Attack 3 if you are really high level? I guess Action Surge is a pretty attractive choice with this feature already, though, so making it cost your surge to go off is not ideal either. *I have edited it to include that this is the sixth level of subclass (only achievable with monk 9, rogue 3, fighter 10). I considered keying it off Action Surge, but I didn't think it was necessary to lead them by the nose quite so hard. It only reaches its full potential with Action Surge, but it isn't broken to allow a player to just... not do that.*
> I have a couple struck out bullets in here; I forgot to account for collapsing the mind blade being a bonus action when I was considering the implications of Light on the mind blade. I'm still a little skeptical but significantly less so now. *I'm not sure what to do with it either. It would still be the best light weapon if I reduced it to a 1d6 base damage though. I'll think about that.*
> ...


Thanks for the feedback! I made a couple adjustments and I have some comments in the spoiler, bolded.

----------


## MoleMage

Due to unexpected family celebrations, I'm going to be on the road on Monday when I would normally call the contest a wrap. So I'm giving a freebie two-day extension for everyone to get in their edits. The new contest deadline is the end of the day on Wednesday May 4th, and the new voting thread target day is Thursday May 5th. On my way now to edit the contest post and the first post of this thread.

The usual two-week extension is still available by triple request, but it will extend from the original deadline, not the freebie two days.

----------


## Twelvetrees

> I was just curious as to why you thought this would allow you to cast two cantrips at a time^^


While trying to reference all the features, I must have looked at War Magic by mistake and thought that the melee attack roll from Eldritch strike allowed you to use a cantrip.

I thought if you took your action to cast a spell (which could be a cantrip), then you got to make an attack before the spell, and then got to replace that attack with a cantrip. Ergo, two cantrips at a time.

Not how it works, but it's how I read it the first time.




Reviews for the recently added subclasses!

*Spoiler: Banneret*
Show


*Heroic Stand* and *Royal Envoy*
Improving Rallying Cry and moving Royal Envoy down to 3rd level are good moves.

One minor quibble: Why'd you get rid of the "see or hear" clause in favor of just hearing for Heroic Stand?

*Puissant Cry*
Rally seems circumstantial, but being able to use it as a bonus action means it's still a good ability. Affright is frighteningly powerful in comparison. Even with a save DC that's not going to be particularly high, a 60 foot radius covers an enormous area and a bonus action to use means this doesn't even interrupt your normal attack sequence. It also afflicts a condition that's not-quite-a-stun, but is close in effect. My suggestion would be to either reduce it's area, make it take an action to use, or remove the piece that forces them to run.

*Call to Action*
Oh, that's a powerful bit of utility. Spellcaster allies get a lot out of this, as do other characters with Extra Attack. Rogues don't benefit from it as much anymore.

*Oath of Wrath*
This is too much for 10th level features. If I wanted to play a 10th level fighter and had to choose between this subclass and a Samurai, I'd choose this subclass in a heartbeat because it does everything a Samurai does, but better. I'm advocating for removing this feature or taking a nerf bat to it.

*Bulwark*
This is a nice improvement over the base feature. Does "as a reaction" mean that using this ability takes your reaction or is that phrase part of the flavor text?

If it is meant to use your reaction, you could word it as "Starting at 15th level, when any number of creatures within 60 feet that can see or hear you fail their saving throw against a single effect (for example, several creatures caught in the area of a single _fireball_), you can use your reaction to allow them..."

If it's not, you can use the same wording I just gave you, but remove the "use your reaction" piece.

*Final Stand*
That's a good way to get allies back on their feet at high levels.

Did the Banneret really not have an 18th level feature before? Wow.

*Overall Impression*
I'd enjoy playing this version of the Banneret and being able to see where these features improved on the original subclass is a nice plus. I still think Oath of Wrath is too good.



*Spoiler: School of Onomancy*
Show


*Scribe of True Words*
Mostly fluff, but fun!

*Evolved Lexicon*
If I understand this correctly, this allows you to create modified spells. Cool.

None of them except for Uur seem that powerful, but I'm probably missing some combinations. Uur is broken when combined with _polymorph_. Cast it on an ally and they suddenly have the shapeshifting potential of a 20th level moon druid. You can use your reaction to choose a new form for them each turn, which will refresh their hit points. This combo works at 7th level.

*Name's Condemnation*
This is strong, but it has limited uses, so it's probably fine.

*True Name Research*
More fluff that makes sense!

*Mindful Recitations*
This actually seemed a little underpowered at first. Then I realized it would allow you to do something like a _Shel counterspell_ and not need components for the spell. A player with good system mastery can exploit this feature, but I don't know that anyone else will get much out of it. Likely fine, given that this is homebrew and anyone wanting to play it probably has a decent sense of how the rules of the game work.

*Power of the True Words*
More spells known would be really good on any other class. For wizards, it's just decent.

Direct counterplay against Legendary Resistances isn't something I've seen before and I don't know how I feel about it. Given that it encourages rocket tag and ending fights against legendary creatures with one spell, I don't like it as a DM. As a player, I really like it.

It seems fine on balance, I've just got conflicted feelings.

*Overall Impression*
I would consider it a little underwhelming, but _Uur polymorph_ and Power of the True Words make it extremely good in specific situations.

My gut says I'd have more fun with other wizard subclasses because their features would come into play more often. That being said, the fluff on this is great.




*Assassin changes*

Slightly modified Exfiltration Expertise to make it more closely resemble a paladin aura.

----------


## Arkanist

> *Spoiler: School of Onomancy*
> Show
> 
> 
> *Scribe of True Words*
> Mostly fluff, but fun!
> 
> *Evolved Lexicon*
> If I understand this correctly, this allows you to create modified spells. Cool.
> ...


Thank you for the feedback! The reason I gave it direct counterplay against LR is because I also tried to signpost that for a boss monster, getting their True Name is a quest unto itself. So being able to unleash that kind of power on a boss is intended to be the aftermath of going on a big quest to uncover their major secret weakness - and quite intentionally only if the DM intends. I figure it's not anticlimax to go "Nice try, Asmodeus... but I know your TRUE NAME!" if you've put in the work to actually dig up the alternate win condition.

As for the Uur thing, I recognize it's powerful, but I tried to curb it by making usage of the Resonant once-per-cast with the caveat that it also burns half the spell's remaining duration. I hope that holds up.

----------


## Ilerien

> *Heroic Stand* and *Royal Envoy*
> Improving Rallying Cry and moving Royal Envoy down to 3rd level are good moves.
> 
> One minor quibble: Why'd you get rid of the "see or hear" clause in favor of just hearing for Heroic Stand?


To make the same creatures eligible for all buffs the subclass offers. I guess I can go the other way and allow deaf, but not blind creatures to benefit from Call to Action, etc.




> *Puissant Cry*
> Rally seems circumstantial, but being able to use it as a bonus action means it's still a good ability. Affright is frighteningly powerful in comparison. Even with a save DC that's not going to be particularly high, a 60 foot radius covers an enormous area and a bonus action to use means this doesn't even interrupt your normal attack sequence. It also afflicts a condition that's not-quite-a-stun, but is close in effect. My suggestion would be to either reduce it's area, make it take an action to use, or remove the piece that forces them to run.


I agree, the fear effect seems unbalanced. Removing the piece that makes them to run is the most elegant solution, I think.




> *Call to Action*
> Oh, that's a powerful bit of utility. Spellcaster allies get a lot out of this, as do other characters with Extra Attack. Rogues don't benefit from it as much anymore.


Hmm, it's a valid point. I probably should revert to reaction mechanic, but allow an ally to take any action.




> *Oath of Wrath*
> This is too much for 10th level features. If I wanted to play a 10th level fighter and had to choose between this subclass and a Samurai, I'd choose this subclass in a heartbeat because it does everything a Samurai does, but better. I'm advocating for removing this feature or taking a nerf bat to it.


Essentially, it's poached from Vengeance Paladin (and from 3.5e version of PDK :) ). I don't see how a paladin gets less mileage out of it than a fighter. Sure, a fighter has more attacks, but a paladin's attacks deal more damage in general thanks to smites. Would it be better if I change it to "the first attack of the turn gets advantage"? Or just straight add one more attack per attack action against that enemy (would be kinda in line with samurai)?




> *Bulwark*
> This is a nice improvement over the base feature. Does "as a reaction" mean that using this ability takes your reaction or is that phrase part of the flavor text?
> 
> If it is meant to use your reaction, you could word it as "Starting at 15th level, when any number of creatures within 60 feet that can see or hear you fail their saving throw against a single effect (for example, several creatures caught in the area of a single _fireball_), you can use your reaction to allow them..."
> 
> If it's not, you can use the same wording I just gave you, but remove the "use your reaction" piece.


Oh, your wording is much better, thank you! I meant a banneret to expend their reaction.



> *Final Stand*
> That's a good way to get allies back on their feet at high levels.


I just realized there's an inherent bug in this feature. Allies at 0 HP rolling death saving throws are unconscious and can't see or hear the banneret.




> *Overall Impression*
> I'd enjoy playing this version of the Banneret and being able to see where these features improved on the original subclass is a nice plus. I still think Oath of Wrath is too good.


Thank you very much for taking a look!  :Small Smile:

----------


## nickl_2000

> Due to unexpected family celebrations, I'm going to be on the road on Monday when I would normally call the contest a wrap. So I'm giving a freebie two-day extension for everyone to get in their edits. The new contest deadline is the end of the day on Wednesday May 4th, and the new voting thread target day is Thursday May 5th. On my way now to edit the contest post and the first post of this thread.
> 
> The usual two-week extension is still available by triple request, but it will extend from the original deadline, not the freebie two days.


Love to hear "unexpected family celebrations" rather than emergency!  Have fun!

----------


## tzurk

I've made some last minute touches to the revised champ after thinking on the feedback from this thread. Not sure I've nailed it, but getting closer. 

Added Keen Weapon as a choice to Signature Weapon - this is the old Improved Archery's "maximise one damage die instead of rolling it" feature. Hopefully this adds a layer of complexity to the decision making process of somebody who would otherwise head straight to True or Reliable weapons, while allowing somebody to pick a greataxe and have a blast with this, or to grab a d8 weapon and a shield and still feel like a powerhouse. Limited to once on each of your turns compared to others' once per turn for the sake of Sentinel/PAM builds. I might turn this into requiring a BA to activate not sure. 

Changed Archery from the above to using your reaction to move up to half your speed after making a ranged weapon attack. A more strategic buff that should still be useful for most of the game without being a straight damage boost. 

TWF also changed to just allow two bonus action attacks when two-weapon fighting instead of one. 

I want to give Defensive Weapon a second attack somewhere along the line, but not sure where it should come, and then it becomes the only signature weapon to scale.  

I thought about removing signature fighting styles entirely in favour of granting another signature weapon at 10, but thought it wasn't enough of a power boost.  Also thought about giving one weapon type two signature features instead but figured that was too much. 

I do like the idea of granting a second choice for a different weapon type at some point but don't know where it would fit. Maybe 7, where BM gets their fluffy feature as well as additional superiority dice & maneuvers, but it still felt like too much. 

I kept Dueling as is, even though it disallows a shield where the base style doesn't. This is purely to help people who crave those Aragorn builds feel like they aren't gimping themselves; there are plenty of options for a Duelist who wants a shield in Interception, Protection, Defense or Superior Technique. 

Anyway, it is what it is! Appreciate all the feedback given in this thread as it's gone a long way to making the subclass feel better. I'm sorry to those whose work I didn't get to review; this contest really took off and it's been great to see so many entries - too many, it turned out, to get around to looking at in depth. 

See you all in the voting thread!

----------


## MoleMage

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-(Open-to-All)

Voting thread is up! A little more than two weeks on the clock.

And everyone remember there are _two_ Sun Soul Monks in this contest. Include the creator's name, if you would please.

----------


## MoleMage

> Alright voting tally comes out as follows!
> 
> In 3rd place it is sengmeng with the *Soulknife* multi-subclass! Get the most of your multiclassing while also capturing the essence of PSYCHIC BLADES.
> 
> In 2nd place we have nickl_2000's *Alchemist* Artificer! Because seriously, who wrote the original alchemist?
> 
> In 1st place it is TwelveTrees's *Assassin* Rogue! Now you're a team player! Also, your mechanics are unambiguous and clear.
> 
> 
> ...


And our new thread is up! See it here! https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...0#post25468080

----------


## Jervis

> And our new thread is up! See it here! https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...0#post25468080


weird question but this is the first contest i'm planning on submitting something. Is it generally considered better to post a link to a pdf or just make the class using the usual forum formatting?

Also has the hunter from Monster Hunter been used in one of these threads before as inspiration?


EDIT:

Eh, i'll just add this as an idea for what my subclass could be. Just a rough out.

*Spoiler: Artificer: Monster Hunter*
Show



Yeah i'm so awesome i don't need to look back at the thing about to eat me for wearing it's parents' hide.
Flavor flavor flavor, fluff fluff fluff. I don't feel like writing it right now.

*Tool's of the Trade*
When you adopt this specialization at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with leatherworker's tools, heavy armor and martial weapons. If you have proficiency in leatherworker's tools you instead gain proficiency in a set of artisan's tools of your choice.

*Monster Hunter Spells*
Starting at 3rd level, you always have certain spells prepared after you reach particular levels in this class, as shown in the Monster Hunter Spells table. These spells count as artificer spells for you, but they don't count against the number of artificer spells you prepare.

3rd
Cure Wounds, Hex

5th
Pass Without Trace, Lesser Restoration

9th
Elemental Weapon, Protection from Energy

13th
Death Ward, Locate Creature

17th
Mass Cure Wounds, Swift Quiver




*Field Smith*
At 3rd level you gain the ability to craft weapons and armor from the remains of fallen monsters. You can use the remains of a non-sentient creature to craft weapons or armor, this process takes an hour and can be done during a short rest. A small or larger creature can be used to create a one handed weapon, a pair of light weapons, light armor, a shield, or 20 pieces of amunition. a Large or larger creature can be used to make a one handed weapon or lance and a shield, a two handed weapon, or a set of light, medium, or heavy armor. A set of Half Plate, Breast Plate, Splint armor can only created from a creature with a CR of 3 or more, and Plate can only be created from a creature with a CR of 5 or more. 

This feature can also be used to create mundane items that can be used with your infusions, as well as furniture, vehicles, or other such items as long as the creature used is at least the same size category as the item being created. This feature can be used in more creative ways requiring considerably more time and multiple creatures as material. Some Monster Hunters have used the bodies of thousands of steel dragons to construct a single tower, for some reason.

*Hunter Weapons*
Again at 3rd level you gain the ability to create special weapons with unusual characteristics when using your Field Smith class feature. These weapons can be by anyone proficient with them as a mundane weapon of that type, but only use can use their additional characteristics. These weapons are called Hunter Weapons and can be made from creature remains as long as those remains could be used to make a mundane version of the weapon. Some hunter weapons come is sets, such as a pair of swords or sword and shield, in which case the creature whos remains you used must have been large enough to create all of it's components. You can only use a hunter weapon's unique abilities while holding the weapon or set of weapons.

*Sword & Shield*
This hunter weapon is a set including a shield and your choice of a longsword, short sword, rapier, or battle axe. When you take the attack action while holding both the shield and the weapon from the set, you can cast one of your Monster Hunter Spells as a bonus action, you must still use a spell slot as normal.

*Long Sword*
This hunter weapon serves as a double-bladed scimitar. If a creature misses an attack roll against you while you are holding this weapon, you can use your reaction to make a single weapon attack against that creature. 

*Great Sword*
This hunter weapon serves as a great sword. You can use a bonus action on your turn to gain advantage on your next melee weapon attack you make this turn, you cannot use this bonus action while you are mounted or if you have moved this turn. You cannot move the turn you use this bonus action.

*Lance*
This hunter weapon is a set including a shield and a lance. While you are wielding both items in this set you can attack with the lance with one hand even while not mounted. Your movement speed is reduced by 10 feet while holding both items in this set. You can use a bonus action to take the disengage or dash action as a bonus action, if you take the disengage action as a bonus action using this feature your movement speed is reduced to 10 feet.

*Gun Lance*
This hunter weapon is a set including a shield and a lance. While you are wielding both items in this set you can attack with the lance with one hand even while not mounted. Your movement speed is reduced by 10 feet while holding both items in this set. When you take the attack action and attack only with the lance, you can use a bonus action to discharge a blast of magical energy, if you do a creature of your choice within your reach must make a reflex save against your artificer spell save DC, taking 2d6 fire damage on a failure. A creature you successfully hit with you lance this turn has disadvantage on this saving throw.

*Dual Blades*
This hunter weapon is a pair of scimitars, longswords, or rapiers. While you are wielding both items in this set and take the attack action you can make one additional weapon attack for each attack you make with the attack action, you cannot add your strength or dexterity modifier to these additional attacks. Feats or fighting styles that allow you to add your ability modifier to the bonus action attack you can make while two weapon fighting do not allow you to add your ability modifier to the additional attacks you make with this hunter weapon.

*Hammer*
This hunter weapon is a maul. When you attack with this weapon as part of the attack action and hit a creature, you can use a bonus action to attempt to shove that creature. (See actions in combat) 

*Hunting Horn*
This hunter weapon is a maul. When you take the attack action while wielding this weapon you can use a bonus action to grant a number of friendly creatures of your choice up to your intelligence modifier that can hear you one of the following benefits, this can include yourself.
Gain temporary hit points equal to your intelligence modifier + half your artificer level (rounded down), these last for up to 1 minute.Gain advantage on saving throws to avoid or end the charmed and frightened conditions until the end of your next turn.Move speed increases by 10 feet until the end of your next turn.AC increases by 1 until the end of your next turn.

*Switchaxe*
This hunter weapon is either a great axe or a great sword. As a bonus action you can cause this weapon to change from a great sword to a great axe or from a great axe to a great sword, when you do your weapon attacks with this weapon deal an additional 1d4 damage of the weapons damage type. If you land a critical hit, you deal an additional 3d6 thunder damage.

*Bow*
This hunter weapon is a longbow. When you take the attack action and attack only with this longbow, you can use a bonus action to fire an additional. This arrow is fired hastily and only deals 1d4 base damage instead of 1d8. If a creature misses you with a weapon attack you can use your reaction to move up to 10 feet and attack the creature that missed you, this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

*Bowgun*
This hunter weapon is a heavy crossbow, light crossbow, or hand crossbow. You do not have disadvantage on attack rolls with this weapon while prone. You can use a bonus action to change the damage dealt by this weapon's ammunition to fire, acid, cold, electric, or poison for the rest of the turn.

*Insect Glaive*
(TBH I have no idea what do do here besides giving a massive boost to jump distance. I need to stat a pet for this and i don't feel like doing that right now.)

*Charge Blade*
(also very annoying to stat, will do later)

*Extra Attack*
Starting at 5th level, you can attack twice, rather than once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

*Expert Hunter*
At 9th level you gain the ability to pick out weaknesses of a creature. As a bonus action you can make a Survival check with a DC equal to 10 + half a creature you can see's CR. On a success, you learn that creature's damage resistances, weaknesses, and immunities.

*Weakness Exploit* 
At 14th level you gain the ability to exploit a creature's weaknesses more easily. If you successfully use your Expert Hunter feature to identify a creature's weaknesses, your weapon attacks deal an additional 1d8 damage of the weapon's damage type to that creature for the next minute.






How does this look for a rough outline?

----------


## MoleMage

> weird question but this is the first contest i'm planning on submitting something. Is it generally considered better to post a link to a pdf or just make the class using the usual forum formatting?
> 
> Also has the hunter from Monster Hunter been used in one of these threads before as inspiration?


To your first question, people usually just do the forum formatting unless they need a _lot_ of space. The PDF thing is included because I use the same rules for the Base Class Contest, and those are often shared as PDF instead of forum formatted due to size.

To your second question, I don't think we've had Monster Hunter yet. Someone may have done it in I Read This II though. I say do it either way though.

----------


## nickl_2000

> weird question but this is the first contest i'm planning on submitting something. Is it generally considered better to post a link to a pdf or just make the class using the usual forum formatting?
> 
> Also has the hunter from Monster Hunter been used in one of these threads before as inspiration?
> 
> How does this look for a rough outline?


I don't remember one either, but even if there was you are welcome to put your take on it in here.  There have been repeats before and different people's takes are always welcome..


The formatting on that looks fine, but if you are wanting a review of the mechanics post it in the entries thread and will will take a look when we have time  :Small Big Grin: 

Oh and welcome to the party!

----------


## Jervis

> I don't remember one either, but even if there was you are welcome to put your take on it in here.  There have been repeats before and different people's takes are always welcome..
> 
> 
> The formatting on that looks fine, but if you are wanting a review of the mechanics post it in the entries thread and will will take a look when we have time 
> 
> Oh and welcome to the party!


Thanks. I submitted my entry, probably needs a bit of work but I removed some interactions from the original that wasnt spectacular, like making dual blades the damage kings at 14 and hex dpr

----------


## Oerlaf

Interestingly, the first idea I came up with the "I Read This in a Book, Once" theme was based on O. Wilde's "Picture of Dorian Grey". So, I decided to base the subclass on Dorian itself. Therefore, my submission is a warlock of the Portrait.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Interestingly, the first idea I came up with the "I Read This in a Book, Once" theme was based on O. Wilde's "Picture of Dorian Grey". So, I decided to base the subclass on Dorian itself. Therefore, my submission is a warlock of the Portrait.


Oh dang, that's good.

*Reads subclass*

That's really good! Very well done.

----------


## sengmeng

Indiana Jones is in the house as Rogue Archetype: Archaeologist.

Feedback:

*Spoiler: Monster Hunter*
Show

Ok, I want to like this. I don't know Monster Hunter or Artificer well enough to say things with a lot of certainty, but here goes: I don't think it's unbalanced, _per se_, and I do think it fills a hole that 5e has, but it is messy. I would change every single one of those hunter weapon thingies into a new infusion, and maybe give him extra infusions over the base Artificer, and also try to fit it into existing rules as much as possible. The later features are fine, as far as I can tell. So are the earlier ones; the spell list is especially good and I like the simplicity of the crafting mechanic. Also, I'm guessing it would make a lot more sense if I knew more about Monster Hunter, but 5e doesn't differentiate weapons enough to make those weapon sets make sense, and I can tell you speaking for myself at least, I don't like the awkward and clunky nature of that feature for the sake of being true to lore that I don't know. I don't know what others might think, though. It might be a huge hit with people who know the game. Overall, well-done, but I encourage some significant editing.


*Spoiler: Portait Patron*
Show

I like this a lot. The features make sense and fit the source material. One thing, make sure you explicitly state the DC of the saves provoked by the features; I assume it's your spell save DC?

----------


## Oerlaf

> Indiana Jones is in the house as Rogue Archetype: Archaeologist.
> *Spoiler: Portait Patron*
> Show
> 
> I like this a lot. The features make sense and fit the source material. One thing, make sure you explicitly state the DC of the saves provoked by the features; I assume it's your spell save DC?



Yes, it was meant to be spell save DC. I explicitly wrote this, but I thought that subclasses usually didn't state that in the official books, did they?

----------


## Jervis

> Indiana Jones is in the house as Rogue Archetype: Archaeologist.
> 
> Feedback:
> 
> *Spoiler: Monster Hunter*
> Show
> 
> Ok, I want to like this. I don't know Monster Hunter or Artificer well enough to say things with a lot of certainty, but here goes: I don't think it's unbalanced, _per se_, and I do think it fills a hole that 5e has, but it is messy. I would change every single one of those hunter weapon thingies into a new infusion, and maybe give him extra infusions over the base Artificer, and also try to fit it into existing rules as much as possible. The later features are fine, as far as I can tell. So are the earlier ones; the spell list is especially good and I like the simplicity of the crafting mechanic. Also, I'm guessing it would make a lot more sense if I knew more about Monster Hunter, but 5e doesn't differentiate weapons enough to make those weapon sets make sense, and I can tell you speaking for myself at least, I don't like the awkward and clunky nature of that feature for the sake of being true to lore that I don't know. I don't know what others might think, though. It might be a huge hit with people who know the game. Overall, well-done, but I encourage some significant editing.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I took your advice and moved the hunter weapons into infusions with the subclass getting two of the new ones that didn't count against their infusions known. It's a lot more elegant though i hope some people give me some more feedback on it. They need some balance help i'm sure, i balanced them all around the assumption of BA opportunity cost. I don't _think_ any of these are massively broken in relation to other options. As in i don't think they massively white room outdamage just a +1 Glaive with PAM or GWM +1 greatsword. At least not without some smart usage. Even the 2d8 GS i think evens out without a bonus to hit though id like to see someone better at back of the napkin DPR calculations tell me what they think.

I rebalanced some things i wasn't happy with and moved the hold hunter weapon rules into a "defunct abilities" section for the time being, but i'll scrub those once i'm more comfortable with the infusions.

EDIT: Also i'll get to looking over the others tomorrow. I'm too sleepy to continue functioning now.

----------


## sengmeng

> Yes, it was meant to be spell save DC. I explicitly wrote this, but I thought that subclasses usually didn't state that in the official books, did they?


A did a quick look through just Warlock subclasses, and most don't have abilities with saves at all, but archfey does and says it's your warlock spell save DC,  while the undead patron just says "a wisdom save," so the official books are mixed, but this is D&D; there's almost no such thing as overexplaining.

----------


## RickAsWritten

Hey all.  Been a minute since I entered one of these, but it felt good to get back in that creating mindset.  Anyway, my entry based on the video game Slay the Spire is up.  The Defect is an Artificer Specialist that channels excess energy into orbs.  They then proceed to blow those orbs up...or...encase themselves in ice...or just generally create mayhem.  I hope you like it, as I had a blast writing it.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> Hey all.  Been a minute since I entered one of these, but it felt good to get back in that creating mindset.  Anyway, my entry based on the video game Slay the Spire is up.  The Defect is an Artificer Specialist that channels excess energy into orbs.  They then proceed to blow those orbs up...or...encase themselves in ice...or just generally create mayhem.  I hope you like it, as I had a blast writing it.


Seems very cool!

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## Damon_Tor

In brightest day, in blackest night
My warlock patron awaits your sight. 
Let those who peruse this great website
PEACH my entry, ignore copyright!

(EDIT: I'm aware the flight speed gets silly at high levels. That's a feature, not a bug. Zoom!)

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## Jervis

Ok, i live! I also finally have my labtop again so i can format these. Heres my thought if anyone wants to hear them

*Spoiler: Patron: The Portrait*
Show


*Expanded Spell List:* Pretty thematic, i like it. 

*Aging Portrait:* I really like this feature mechanically, but it's weird you need to have it within 5 feet of you. It also doesn't give a size so you could have your portrait in a locket. Thematically having the portrait be something that you need to keep on you is kinda weird to the source material since Dorian was terrified of something happening to it, and if my memory of league of extortionary gentlemen is correct he died if he saw it. I might abstract it out a but more or make it like a phylactery, though that goes against 5e design philosophy so it's understandable.

*Deceitful Youth:* I like it. Not much of a balance issue, just a nice spell for you.

*Beauty of the Vice:* Very good counterspell effect. You're gonna be better at messing up spellcasting than anyone else in the party. At this level though you're probably fine, especially since counterspells are assumed at this level.

*The Portrait of Life Trapping:* Very strong save or die. In fact since it's infinite use it's a very. very strong way to burn legendary resistances. If a boss has it in it's line of sight then it has to save every turn or close it's eyes, meaning it has to deal with the blinded condition. You can also move where it's pointing (presumably) as an item interaction. I would also add a clause that you can choose which creatures are immune just because otherwise fighting a large group of creatures will result in them constantly popping in and out of the cell every round, also means party members don't need to deal with the blinded condition. 

Over all, very nice. I personally might take a look at the capstone but over all it's fair and well made.



*Spoiler: Rogue: The Archeologist*
Show


*Fisticuffs:* Mostly a ribbon, but a very fun ribbon. More classes need unarmed combat. I might look at the wording again just because having your fists count as light finesse weapons might cause some jank with magic weapon and some other weirdness. The TWF BA attack though is nice, rogues have a very full BA economy but this is a good option for some extra damage or just punching someone in the nose.

*Signature Weapon:* I don't know if this is a bug or a feature but this allows you to use a greatsword for sneak attack, also lets you use GWM with a way to get free advantage turn 1. You can also do the Iaijutsu focus trick of carrying 50 Katanas greatswords and getting advantage every turn. That said, I'm actually not sure this does much more damage than the old sharpshooter with steady aim and phantom steed combo though so YMMV. Overall though i like the idea of the feature, it's nice.

*Academia:* This class is very front loaded though one's a ribbon and the other is more of a feature you get earlier so, eh. I will say as written this might stop you from selecting skills you already have prof in, which would be kinda weird for this thematically. 

*Social Genius:* Good, I believe it's in line with the samurai feature so that's neat. Sort of brings back the Iaijutsu comparison from before. Except it's on a rogue that has good reason to invest in Int so it's automatically better. I like it.

*I Hate These Guys:* I appreciate the reference but getting favored enemy at level 9 is kind of weird. This also makes the GWM use very powerful in, say, a undead heavy campaign. I would probably replace this with something that uses those proficiencies you got earlier, maybe making a check with a Int skill at a certain DC depending on CR lets you get sneak attacks for free for a combat or something. Or Int to your sneak attack damage if you pass a certain int rolls related to something you're fighting. As is it's very campaign dependent, same as normal favored enemy.

*Trap Sense:* Good features are good.

*You Betrayed Shiva:* With expertise you basically have a free counterspell every round. This is level 17 but thats a lot of counterspell power. Also i think the Arcane Divine distinction doesn't really show up in all of the monster statblocks now so it might have some issues in use. I would personally put a use limit on it.

Over all very fun theme and i like it's early level abilities. I am slightly worried about the GWM synergy though.

 

*Spoiler: Artificer: the Defect*
Show


This is the first one i know nothing about when it comes to source material so be gentle.

*Tools:* Glassbowing needs more love, neat

*Spells:* I can't speak to the theming of these but its a very good list of spells overall.

*Orb Manipulation:* There's probably an exploit with plasma orb, grab eldritch blast somehow and your damage is doubled. It also restores spell slots. I also believe that the dark orb allows for infinite damage stacking since turns move outside of battle though i might be misreading the feature. Over all it's neat. I would probably just add a general rule that invoked orbs are destroyed instead of stating it at the end of each feature.

*Channeling Skills:* Very involved but interesting. This can probably lead to some absurd damage.

*Orb Powers:* All good, i would recommend some back of the napkin DPR calculations because just looking these over i see some potential for very very big numbers. Neat overall.

*Artifacts of the Spire:* Some nice recursion but i believe this also allows for some spell slot recovery with plasma unless i missed something.

Overall neat, i wish i new more on what this was based on. Also thank you for making me realize my levels on my artificer subclass where wrong.



*Spoiler: Warlock: The Corps*
Show


*Spell List:* All Very Very big spells. Very thematic too. Spiritual weapon is massive for a warlock.

*Power Ring:* I like the punch effect. Also fly speed at level 1 is massive but races get that so, eh. This might create a too awesome to use effect where flying up and casting EB is more attractive than using your spells but it's a interesting trade off. I also love the nod to spelljammer.

*Defensive Aura:* Works very well with your class spell list. I'm not sure if there are any massively broken combos with this.

*Emergency Power:* Nice level 10. Letting you use your flight all the time is good here.

*Defensive Strike:* I like it, some good melee DPR increase. 

I love the massive fly speed you get here and i'm a sucker for green lantern. Just great all around.

----------


## RickAsWritten

> *Spoiler: Artificer: the Defect*
> Show
> 
> 
> This is the first one i know nothing about when it comes to source material so be gentle.
> 
> *Tools:* Glassbowing needs more love, neat
> 
> *Spells:* I can't speak to the theming of these but its a very good list of spells overall.
> ...


Thanks for shining a light on some of the exploitable bits.  I'll add some limiters.

Once per turn for Plasma bonus damage.A limit to the amount of spells recovered per long rest.Make dark orbs reset after a minute or so.

I'm also going to change the number of maximum channeled orb slots from proficiency bonus scaling to a set number of three.  The character in the game always has three, so it fits the theme better and prevents ridiculous stacking of passive abilities.  To compensate, a new power, also from the game, will be created:

*Capacitor*
Increase the maximum number of channeled orb slots by 2.

Also also, reduced the damage reduction of frost orbs from 1d8 to 1d4.  Multiple evoked (and Dualcast) frost orbs now add an additional 1d4 of damage reduction.

Also also also, reduced the base damage of dark orbs from double proficiency bonus to proficiency bonus.  They still are capable of insane amounts of damage, but it slightly more reasonable now.  Defined that dark orbs do necrotic damage.

----------


## nickl_2000

Monk: Way of the Spider is posted and ready for you to PEACH/rip apart.  With this subclass you can be a Spiderdragon, Spiderowl, Spiderbug(bear), SpiderHare or any other type of Spiderthing that strikes your fancy!  Join the group of friendly neighborhood Spider friends.  However, remember that with great power....

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Monk: Way of the Spider is posted and ready for you to PEACH/rip apart.  With this subclass you can be a Spiderdragon, Spiderowl, Spiderbug(bear), SpiderHare or any other type of Spiderthing that strikes your fancy!  Join the group of friendly neighborhood Spider friends.  However, remember that with great power....


It's great!

I'd like to see spider-climb added as a movement speed instead of as a spell, and better integration of web-use into the monk fighting style. I don't think ki-to-spells is the way to go for this, none of the spells are a perfect match for the sorts of things you want to be doing with your webs, and as you've written it there's no inherent way the web spells fit into a monk combat turn.

Maybe explore using the net mechanics? Like, you generate super-strong nets, throw them father then normal, and ignore some of the drawbacks on nets for action economy.

----------


## nickl_2000

> It's great!
> 
> I'd like to see spider-climb added as a movement speed instead of as a spell, and better integration of web-use into the monk fighting style. I don't think ki-to-spells is the way to go for this, none of the spells are a perfect match for the sorts of things you want to be doing with your webs, and as you've written it there's no inherent way the web spells fit into a monk combat turn.
> 
> Maybe explore using the net mechanics? Like, you generate super-strong nets, throw them father then normal, and ignore some of the drawbacks on nets for action economy.


I did try and put webs used in combat into the spells.  Catapult fits really well with the "grab a rock and throw it at someone style of fighting" and web was a no brainer.  I will think on the net usage, that is a good idea and maybe something I can make it something cool.

I figured that Monks can already run up walls, I didn't want to take away from that class feature, but I will consider a different way to do that as well.  Maybe a combination of a climb speed and the ability to hang upside down without holding on early and running up walls later.

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## Old Harry MTX

> Monk: Way of the Spider is posted and ready for you to PEACH/rip apart.  With this subclass you can be a Spiderdragon, Spiderowl, Spiderbug(bear), SpiderHare or any other type of Spiderthing that strikes your fancy!  Join the group of friendly neighborhood Spider friends.  However, remember that with great power....


I like the idea a lot, but I agree in toto with Damon_Tor.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> I did try and put webs used in combat into the spells.  Catapult fits really well with the "grab a rock and throw it at someone style of fighting" and web was a no brainer.


That's not really what I mean: Spider-Man fights quickly, very flowing and kinetic, and monks are the same way, but without the spells being integrated somehow into the attack/flurry cycle using them is going to feel both slow and weak. Yes, they they have the ki-empowered strikes ability which is functional in a pinch (though as written it wouldn't work with cantrips like vine whip), but one meh spell and one weapon attack as your whole turn does justice to neither Spider-Man nor the Monk class. And mechanically there's not much synergy even if you can get past the combat pacing issue: in how many circumstances would a monk want to use his action to cast Shocking Hands?

----------


## Amechra

> Monk: Way of the Spider is posted and ready for you to PEACH/rip apart.  With this subclass you can be a Spiderdragon, Spiderowl, Spiderbug(bear), SpiderHare or any other type of Spiderthing that strikes your fancy!  Join the group of friendly neighborhood Spider friends.  However, remember that with great power....


On top of everyone else's comments vis-a-vis combat flow, level 3 is _kinda_ over-stuffed. Compared to the Shadow Monk, which gets 4 2nd level spells and a cantrip, you get proficiency+expertise in a skill, two cantrips, two 1st level spells, and three 2nd level spells.

----------


## nickl_2000

> That's not really what I mean: Spider-Man fights quickly, very flowing and kinetic, and monks are the same way, but without the spells being integrated somehow into the attack/flurry cycle using them is going to feel both slow and weak. Yes, they they have the ki-empowered strikes ability which is functional in a pinch (though as written it wouldn't work with cantrips like vine whip), but one meh spell and one weapon attack as your whole turn does justice to neither Spider-Man nor the Monk class. And mechanically there's not much synergy even if you can get past the combat pacing issue: in how many circumstances would a monk want to use his action to cast Shocking Hands?


There are very few uses for shocking hands, I mostly just threw it in there to replicate Miles Morales ability.

Based on all the feedback though it seems the mechanics would be better as abilities rather than spells, so sounds like it needs a significant re-write 🙂.  I'll take a shot at it next week and will try and get reviews of other entries soon

----------


## Old Harry MTX

Guys, I'm collecting some ideas on possible characters to transcribe into a subclass, but none of them convinces me enough. Maybe you can give me some advice.

I've written some ideas and outlined the possible PROS and CONS.



*JoJo Stand Wielder/Shaman King/Pokemon Trainer*

*Undefined class, maybe a Monk*
Absorbs the essence of the defeated enemies (not undead or construct, and maybe not even humanoids) with a CR not higher than the number shown in the XYZ table for your level.Choose a number of Actions or Traits, up to proficiency bonus, or up to an increasing number shown in the class table (to avoid multiclass shenanigans), and make them yours.All its accompanied by fantastic pyrotechnic effects, such as the appearance of a fleeting spirit version of the enemy from which the action was taken, the moment you use it.At higher levels, the character learns the ability to recall the effect of these essences at a certain distance and not only on its position. The distance is proportional to the difference between the CR of the original creature and the CR shown in the XYZ table for your level.
*PROS:*
Seems cool.
*CONS:*
It's inspired from an archetypical figure more than a character itself, so it's a bit out of theme.Could be very weak or very strong depending on the enemies defeated. Overall, it could be difficult to balance.



*Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde/Hulk*

*Artificer*
The character can transform into a brute, activating a kind of barbarian rage. This condition can also be triggered if it suffers a certain number of damage, or if it gets involved in dangerous/exciting situations, and may require some sort of saving throw to end.

When transformed, the character became a brawler as below:
Loses the ability to cast spells and any proficiency with weapons (except clubs maybe?).Swaps its Intelligence and Strenght ability scores.Gains unarmored defense.Gains bonus to unarmed strikes.(lvl 5th) Gains extra attacks when transformed.(lvl 9th) Increases its size OR gains some sort of Goliath trait (I.E. being considered one size larger at will).
*PROS:*
Fits the theme.
*CONS:*
It's nothing more than an Artificer that became a punching Barbarian when entering a fight.



*Solid Snake*

*Rogue*
The master of stealth play:
Can disguise itself with the environment.Can stun unalerted enemies below a certain CR level.Can place bombs and find traps.Can use a sort of night vision.Gains bonuses against Huge or larger enemiesIt must fail a certain number of stealth checks, or fail to stun a certain number of enemies, before the enemies actually enter a state of alarm.
*PROS:*
You can call a feature "The best is yet to come" and another one "It's not over yet!".You can hide in a box.
*CONS:*
Stealth play is complex, unbalanced and f*****g boring in a TTRPG!



*Sekiro*

*Rogue*
A samurai with a prosthetic arm and a weird relationship with death.
Various gadgets that can be installed on the prosthetic arm.Each attack parried or inflicted applies an Imbalance charge to the enemy. After a certain amount, you can spend them to produce various effects, like deal additional damage, automatically succeed the next attack roll, push the creature proneAt higher levels, some sort of ability to resurrect once per several days, or with some kind of side effect.
*PROS:*
A lot of mechanics.
*CONS:*
Maybe, too much mechanic.All the features are combat oriented


*Spiderman*

*Monk*
Becomes the avatar of Anansi:
Gains a climb speed.Creates strings of cobweb that can be used as a rope, or as a rope + grappling hook.Proficiency to Initiative checks.Can jump very high and very distant.Can cast the _find familiar_ spell as ritual (spiders only) and can use them as spider spies (I don't know how they are called in English, I am referring to those spider-shaped red trackers that spiderman threw to enemies to stalk them using his Spider Sense...)(ki cost) Can swing by throwing cobwebs strings to move quickly, and perform swoop attacks if it's swinging.(ki cost) Can throw itself like a slingshot and gain attack bonuses.(ki cost) Can create nets (like the weapon) and throw them at an increasing-with-level distance.(ki cost) At higher levels, gains advantage on Dexterity saving throws (maybe the first time per rest it is free).(ki cost) At higher levels, can create bigger nets that can Restrain even huge creatures and give disadvantage on Large or smaller ones.(ki cost) At higher levels, can create a parachute or a trampoline from cobwebs.(ki cost) At higher levels, can produce the effects of the _web_ spell.Maybe, something related to the Web of Life and Destiny, which links all the worlds of the multiverse?(final capstone - Evolve or Die) Can turn into a werespider once per several days (or having to rest for a while in a cocoon before it can use this feature again...).
*PROS:*
The character is very characterized and transcribable.
*CONS:*
nickl_2000 is already proposing it, but I would love if he took inspiration from these points.



> There are very few uses for shocking hands, I mostly just threw it in there to replicate Miles Morales ability.
> 
> Based on all the feedback though it seems the mechanics would be better as abilities rather than spells, so sounds like it needs a significant re-write 🙂.  I'll take a shot at it next week and will try and get reviews of other entries soon


I'm not a big fan of Miles Morales' powers, being able to give shocks and become invisible doesn't make any sense to me, as does Jessica Drew's ability to fly and charm people. However, once per turn, you could just add the effects of a 1st level _shocking grasp_ to one of the unarmed strikes, spending ki points.

----------


## Jervis

As for the jojo/pokemon trainer i would personally not use CR for it. CR is very janky and giving creatures with a CR to players has problems. If at any point CR 8 becomes available the DM will never be able to throw a hydra at the party again. I'm of the opinion that having a single statblock or set of statblocks you can reflavor and customize is better. Like you can create a eidolon (which ill call it here because its similar to how PF summoners work) with various features tacked on depending on budget. If you want defeating monsters to be part of it then have features it can access be dependent on creatures you've beaten.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> As for the jojo/pokemon trainer i would personally not use CR for it. CR is very janky and giving creatures with a CR to players has problems. If at any point CR 8 becomes available the DM will never be able to throw a hydra at the party again. I'm of the opinion that having a single statblock or set of statblocks you can reflavor and customize is better. Like you can create a eidolon (which ill call it here because its similar to how PF summoners work) with various features tacked on depending on budget. If you want defeating monsters to be part of it then have features it can access be dependent on creatures you've beaten.


Thankyou for you answer! 

You are probably right, but creating a Stat block (or more ideally, a list of actions and traits, since the character don't summon a permanent creature but just recall it's power time to time) is the last thing I want to do. 

Also, the idea was to tie the CR not directly to the level of the character, but with a progression. For example, it could start with 1/2 at 1st level, became 1 at 3rd, and then increase by one at each odd level, up to 8 when you reach 17th level. Or it can start at 1/4 and go up to 7, or start at 1 and go up to 9, but I have to run some math for that.

Finally, this power should have a cost (ideally, a KI cost if the base class is a monk) to limit the number of uses through the day.

Anyway, it is probably still quite hard to balance.

----------


## Oerlaf

> *Spoiler: Patron: The Portrait*
> Show
> 
> 
> *Expanded Spell List:* Pretty thematic, i like it. 
> 
> *Aging Portrait:* I really like this feature mechanically, but it's weird you need to have it within 5 feet of you. It also doesn't give a size so you could have your portrait in a locket. Thematically having the portrait be something that you need to keep on you is kinda weird to the source material since Dorian was terrified of something happening to it, and if my memory of league of extortionary gentlemen is correct he died if he saw it. I might abstract it out a but more or make it like a phylactery, though that goes against 5e design philosophy so it's understandable.
> 
> *Deceitful Youth:* I like it. Not much of a balance issue, just a nice spell for you.
> ...


Thank you for your review. I changed The Portrait of Life Trapping. I added a clause about immunity for the next 24 hours on a successful save or escape. Also I added the clause that once a creature is trapped, the magic of the portrait is suspended for a while in order to prevent creatures popping in and out. Also I clarified that a creature can avert its eyes much like in a medusa's stat block in order to prevent munchkinish "The boss can't avert his eyes because it is not explicitly stated in the feature" :-)

The reason for a portrait being Small and needing to carry around yourself is simple. The feature itself is based on Abjuration Wizard's Arcane Ward, but a warlock gets a feature at level 1, so I wanted something that is both similar to and weaker than the Arcane Ward. Hence, the portrait can be destroyed and there is a drawback for the destruction of the portrait.

----------


## nickl_2000

Ripped apart my way of the spider and made it ability based instead of spell based.  There are no lots of abilities that you can see.

There are a few that I ignored since the monk does it well.

-agile landings - Monk's slow fall
-fast speed - monks speed increase and step of the wind
-reflexes - prof in all saves when they get high enough level
-healing factor - as of Tasha's monk can use Ki to heal themselves.
-enhanced jumping - step of the wind, but it can be enhanced further as well.


I would love it if anyone has time to take a look at the new version and let me know what you think.

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## Damon_Tor

> Ripped apart my way of the spider and made it ability based instead of spell based.  There are no lots of abilities that you can see.
> 
> There are a few that I ignored since the monk does it well.
> 
> -agile landings - Monk's slow fall
> -fast speed - monks speed increase and step of the wind
> -reflexes - prof in all saves when they get high enough level
> -healing factor - as of Tasha's monk can use Ki to heal themselves.
> -enhanced jumping - step of the wind, but it can be enhanced further as well.
> ...


It's much better. 

IMO, it's missing a super strength ability: 1 ki to lift/push/drag as if you were one size larger (and maybe allow it to self-stack so you can lift as a huge or even gargantuan creature with 2 or 3 ki spent) would be pretty rad.

I feel like the jump ability is redundant with step of the wind, and you'll bump up against the move speed limit on jumps anyway.

If both Mark of Kaine and Stingers add damage based on an extra MA dice, I think Venom Blast should do the same instead of scaling like a cantrip. Also, unsure why Venom Blast gets a rider effect while the others don't. IMO either add a comparable rider to the others or remove it from venom Blast.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> Ripped apart my way of the spider and made it ability based instead of spell based.  There are no lots of abilities that you can see.
> 
> There are a few that I ignored since the monk does it well.
> 
> -agile landings - Monk's slow fall
> -fast speed - monks speed increase and step of the wind
> -reflexes - prof in all saves when they get high enough level
> -healing factor - as of Tasha's monk can use Ki to heal themselves.
> -enhanced jumping - step of the wind, but it can be enhanced further as well.
> ...


I like it much more! The fact that you haven't divided the powers into different levels leaves you with less design room, and also introduces the same issue of maneuvers and metamagic options (the fact that a player tends to pick the best at lower levels, leaving the less interesting to the higher). Anyway overall seems cool.

For personal taste, I would still love more from the final capstone, like something that once per week gives you ALL the powers for the next hour, or that goes completely metaphisic (even both, since the latter would be probably an utility feature...).

----------


## nickl_2000

> It's much better. 
> 
> IMO, it's missing a super strength ability: 1 ki to lift/push/drag as if you were one size larger (and maybe allow it to self-stack so you can lift as a huge or even gargantuan creature with 2 or 3 ki spent) would be pretty rad.
> 
> I feel like the jump ability is redundant with step of the wind, and you'll bump up against the move speed limit on jumps anyway.
> 
> If both Mark of Kaine and Stingers add damage based on an extra MA dice, I think Venom Blast should do the same instead of scaling like a cantrip. Also, unsure why Venom Blast gets a rider effect while the others don't. IMO either add a comparable rider to the others or remove it from venom Blast.


I liked the rider, that was actually the part I was most interested in. So I changed it to just use the rider, be based on a bonus action and have no ki cost.




> I like it much more! The fact that you haven't divided the powers into different levels leaves you with less design room, and also introduces the same issue of maneuvers and metamagic options (the fact that a player tends to pick the best at lower levels, leaving the less interesting to the higher). Anyway overall seems cool.
> 
> For personal taste, I would still love more from the final capstone, like something that once per week gives you ALL the powers for the next hour, or that goes completely metaphisic (even both, since the latter would be probably an utility feature...).


I know the problem, but there just aren't enough option to build a spider skill tree in my mind.  So, I went with the battlemaster option.  I did re-jigger the level 17 ability to be similar but overall more powerful.

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## nickl_2000

Review time  :Small Big Grin: 

*Spoiler: Artificer: The Monster Hunter*
Show



Welcome to the party.  I love seeing new people and new ideas!  I know absolutely nothing about the source material, so this review will be completely and utterly based on the read :)

Field Smith - seems like there needs to some DM fiat here.  For example, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to make studded leather out Iron Golem.  Very minor, but just mention in there that the player should work with their DM.  I do have a slight problem with Full Plate and Half Plate being able to be made during a short rest.  This is some potential for economic abuse here that the Artificer could make Full Plate and sell it for 500gp a pop.  Enough dead bodies and they are so rich they would never need to actually adventure.  I would consider limiting the amount of armors/weapons that can be made at once to avoid this potential problem.

*Hunter Longsword* - item: Double-Bladed Scimitar.  The name seems odd here, is that a typo?

*Hunter Hammer* - Stunned is a really, really powerful condition to incur.  Even if it is only for a little over a round.  Maybe a different effect or maybe a save to avoid being stunned?

*Hunter Insectglaive* - Item: Longbow seems like another copy and paste error.

Otherwise it looks very interesting.  I would love to see how it plays :)




*Spoiler: Warlock Patron: the Portrait*
Show



*The Aging Portrait* - The mechanics of the HPs is confusing to me.  Can you re-word or clarify it somehow?

*Beauty of the Vice* - I'm glad you have this limited in number of uses.  This could be extremely, extremely powerful with the ability to get spells back.  My thoughts were that this was to powerful, but in some campaigns you could go days without running into someone who actually casts spells.





*Spoiler: Rogue Archetype: The Archaeologist*
Show



I think the most interesting thing here is that you give the ability for a Rogue to sneak attack with a two handed weapon.  This is something the original designers have worked very hard to avoid, but for the life of me I can't figure out why.  With only 1 attack, the difference in damage between a 1d12 weapon and a 1d8 weapon isn't all that significant.

*Why did it have to be snakes.... I mean I Hate These Guys* - Adding the damage against them is perfectly fine.  However add your Int mod to the attack roll will break bounded accuracy pretty badly.  Archery fighting style adds a +2 and is significant enough that those types of fighters will rarely miss.  Adding a potential +5 is gigantic.

*You Betrayed Shiva* - This one of pretty significantly overpowered.  There is no max uses, so you can counter things all day long.  The DC is Max 19.  However, if you are proficient in Arcana, Religion, or History, the lowest roll you will see at level 17 is 16+int.  So, since int helps a lot, likely you are going to have a +3 int mod making those checks a guaranteed success at 19 (10 from reliable talent, 6 from prof bonus, 3 from int mod).  Meaning you can counter a spell that you see/hear every single round.


I like the idea here, I like a ability to make a strength rogue.  There are a few skills that need some work though.




Sorry, my energy is flagging.  I will come back tomorrow for the rest of the posted subclasses.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> I know the problem, but there just aren't enough option to build a spider skill tree in my mind.  So, I went with the battlemaster option.  I did re-jigger the level 17 ability to be similar but overall more powerful.


I like it,but you have wrote "spider skills" instead of "spider powers". Also, can you use both "stingers" and "mark of Kane" on the same attack? I would probably specify that you can't apply more effects on the same attack, or i would change "mark of Kane" in something that needs a prolonged contact, like dealing automatic damage if you finish a turn grappling or grappled by a creature...

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## nickl_2000

> I like it,but you have wrote "spider skills" instead of "spider powers". Also, can you use both "stingers" and "mark of Kane" on the same attack? I would probably specify that you can't apply more effects on the same attack, or i would change "mark of Kane" in something that needs a prolonged contact, like dealing automatic damage if you finish a turn grappling or grappled by a creature...


Woops, thanks for the catch.

Actually my thought was that sure you can use both the stingers and mark of caine.  The PC are talking about level 17+ here, you should be silly powerful and if you do this you are burning through ki very quickly.  Plus you only can choose to use the Avatar once per day, or if you are using it more often you are already burning a massive amount of Ki to even activate it.

----------


## Jervis

> Review time 
> 
> *Spoiler: Artificer: The Monster Hunter*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to the party.  I love seeing new people and new ideas!  I know absolutely nothing about the source material, so this review will be completely and utterly based on the read :)
> 
> ...


Ah thanks for pointing out the I-glaive mistake, I thought I caught all of those. As for the longsword, appearance aside its mechanics are intentional. Monster Hunter longswords are basically body length katanas that swing a lot faster than greatswords. So mechanically a double bladed scimitar fits best for it. 

Ill look over hammer again. Ill admit a no save stun on a crit looked a bit sacky even while I was writing it. Thanks for the review.

----------


## MoleMage

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-Voting-Thread

It's time. To. VOTE!

----------


## MoleMage

> Okay, I am late again but I got it talled and accounted for.
> 
> 
> Our third place entrant is Damon_Tor with the *Corps Patron*. Grab your power rings and focus your willpower, because you just found an alien lantern.
> 
> In second place, we have sengmeng with the *Archaelogist*. Why isn't this an official subclass again? It's iconic!
> 
> And our first place winner is Oerlaf with the *Portrait Patron*. Why bother with morality when all the consequences happen to someone else (even if that someone else is a version of you)?
> 
> ...


Voting's called, even if slightly late. New thread to arrive soon!

And here it is! https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...9#post25512119

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## nickl_2000

congratulations to the winners!

----------


## RickAsWritten

Congrats to the winners of the last one.  Lots of cool stuff from top to bottom.

I was ready at the starting gun on this one, so my entry, the Barbarian: Path of the Psi-Fury, is up. 
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...31&postcount=2

There has been a common complaint that barbarians are too focused on smashing things with heavy implements, so this one has plenty of things to do, and abilities that are mostly independent of Rage.  They specialize in battlefield control and have a less-than-subtle nod to a certain Marvel character.  
Balance-wise, I usually start by putting down as many cool abilities as I can, and then scale back to balance on revisions, so I'm excited to see what people think.

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## Snowben Gaming

Welp. I've not only managed to miss the deadline for the last contest I entered, but I've also managed to miss the entire next contest. Oops. Well, exams and summer job hunting will do that I guess. Anyways, I'm back (again) and excited for this one: the previous Something Borroweds were probably my favourite to read through when I first found out about this thing, so I'm excited to be able to contribute to one.

----------


## Snowben Gaming

Ok, so I've just had a thought: Would it be ok to borrow from the Rune Scribe prestige class from one of the extremely early unearthed arcana articles (this one specifically: https://media.wizards.com/2015/downl...tige_Class.pdf). It's... sort of a class and is UA. Obviously, the subclass would be for another class (fighter? wizard? not sure yet), it would be the borrowed aspects being drawn from Rune Scribe.

----------


## MoleMage

> Ok, so I've just had a thought: Would it be ok to borrow from the Rune Scribe prestige class from one of the extremely early unearthed arcana articles (this one specifically: https://media.wizards.com/2015/downl...tige_Class.pdf). It's... sort of a class and is UA. Obviously, the subclass would be for another class (fighter? wizard? not sure yet), it would be the borrowed aspects being drawn from Rune Scribe.


Yeah that would be fine. Unearthed Arcana posts are specifically allowed as sources in the rules. I never put a limit on how old they could be.

----------


## Jervis

Chameleon Monk was a thing the second go around but im thinking about making a chameleon bard. That or a sorcadin, but I do have a Paladin based sorcerer origin already made elsewhere so I would need to intentionally differentiate the two. Which isnt a bad thing but I run the risk of it being predictable. Any opinions?

----------


## Snowben Gaming

> Yeah that would be fine. Unearthed Arcana posts are specifically allowed as sources in the rules. I never put a limit on how old they could be.


Cheers, I figured it would be ok, but thought I'd ask anyways. So I'm thinking of using artificer for the base class.




> Chameleon Monk was a thing the second go around but im thinking about making a chameleon bard. That or a sorcadin, but I do have a Paladin based sorcerer origin already made elsewhere so I would need to intentionally differentiate the two. Which isnt a bad thing but I run the risk of it being predictable. Any opinions?


The chameleon monk looked really fun when I was reading through the previous contests, so I'm up for chameleon bard.

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## Old Harry MTX

I have two ideas:

The Sapper, a Fighter that borrows from the Artificer. 
The Hermit, a Wizard that borrows from Barbarian, with a sort of arcane Rage called Trance.

Hope to have time to write something!

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## animorte

Anybody ever notice how the Eldritch Knight actually has absolutely no focus even remotely relevant to our primary eldritch class, the Warlock?

We also need a few more representatives for that severely underrated Wild Magic shenanigans.

----------


## Jervis

> Anybody ever notice how the Eldritch Knight actually has absolutely no focus even remotely relevant to our primary eldritch class, the Warlock?
> 
> We also need a few more representatives for that severely underrated Wild Magic shenanigans.


Just took the 3.5 PrCs name. Its not even fitting for a fighter, the PRC was 9/10. At most it should have been a arcane Paladin subclass or something

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## Damon_Tor

The Weaponsmith is done.

This is a fighter who borrows thematically and mechanically from the artificer, allowing for the creation of super-weapons which outperform their existing counterparts. Ever wonder why there's no compound bow or repeating crossbow in 5e? It's because you haven't invented them yet. Do you feel like a reflavored longsword doesn't do justice to some historical blade you fancy? Create one for yourself. Do you feel like the system would benefit from something like a two-handed finesse weapon or a one-handed heavy weapon? Be the change you seek.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Congrats to the winners of the last one.  Lots of cool stuff from top to bottom.
> 
> I was ready at the starting gun on this one, so my entry, the Barbarian: Path of the Psi-Fury, is up. 
> https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...31&postcount=2
> 
> There has been a common complaint that barbarians are too focused on smashing things with heavy implements, so this one has plenty of things to do, and abilities that are mostly independent of Rage.  They specialize in battlefield control and have a less-than-subtle nod to a certain Marvel character.  
> Balance-wise, I usually start by putting down as many cool abilities as I can, and then scale back to balance on revisions, so I'm excited to see what people think.


This is awesome. I'm going to hit you with some nitpicks, mostly mechanics that need clarification.

*Unstoppable Force* is great, but it doesn't actually say you can pass through occupied spaces when you use the ability, which would seem to be the implication. If you use the ability to go through a wall or door and don't deal the object enough damage to destroy it, what's supposed to happen? Great ability and it looks fun, but I feel like the mechanics need to be clearer.

*Immovable Object*: The dice roll affecting both the length of the wall and the duration seems way too swingy: a 5-foot forcewall that lasts 6 seconds is useless in most scenarios (and still eats the resource) while a 50-foot forcewall that lasts a full minute can basically be a win condition. IMO, make the length equal to 5*conmod instead, then have just the duration be based on the psi roll. This is also a pretty strong ability: I would swap this with Psionic Restraints, so you'd get this at 6th level and Psionic Restraints at 3rd.

I don't have any objections to *Shared Fury* on a mechanical level, but I'm not sure what's supposed to be happening in a narrative sense. The ranger is looking for tracks and the barbarian helps him by... what? How does "sharing his fury" help the wizard identify a magical effect or the cleric tell if somebody is lying? Maybe the name just needs a rethink?

*Psionic Restraints* is cool, but you need to say what kind of action it takes, if any. Is the initial grapple supposed to be a free action that only consumes the psi-die? Or is this supposed to be a complement to a standard grapple you perform using the attack action as normal?

I like *Psychic Terrain's* ability to leave a trail of rubble behind you as you charge in. The bonus-action rubble-clearing seems useful in some niche cases, especially where you have particularly dangerous forms of terrain created by spells.

*Guarding Fury* is good. Solid feature, no notes.

*Psychic Juggernaut* adds some neat synergy between the restraint and the charge, which is great (depending on how the timing of the restraint is supposed to work, see my question about that above).

Overall: looks like a blast.

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## animorte

I have officially posted my first entry ever! I welcome any criticism with gratitude. I intend to spend more time balancing and refining.

Rogue: Hourglass

----------


## Damon_Tor

> I have officially posted my first entry ever! I welcome any criticism with gratitude. I intend to spend more time balancing and refining.
> 
> Rogue: Hourglass


Looks good. One thing I noticed: *Chronal Aptitude* needs to be reworded to keep you from accumulating infinite dice.

----------


## Lvl45DM!

Man its been a while.

Druid: Circle of Nature's Avenger is up and raging. I realize the capstone takes a sharp left turn but it felt...right. And pretty funny.

----------


## RickAsWritten

Thanks for the feedback! I'm made some changes based on your excellent suggestions and have some _notes/replies in italics below_




> This is awesome. I'm going to hit you with some nitpicks, mostly mechanics that need clarification.
> 
> *Unstoppable Force* is great, but it doesn't actually say you can pass through occupied spaces when you use the ability, which would seem to be the implication. If you use the ability to go through a wall or door and don't deal the object enough damage to destroy it, what's supposed to happen? Great ability and it looks fun, but I feel like the mechanics need to be clearer.
> 
> _Good point. I will add a clause to allow for moving through enemies. I'm not sure how to approach the object damage part.  It is definitely my intention to allow for some Kool Aid Man-esque shenanigans, but I guess if you don't deal enough damage to destroy an object then your movement is stopped. _ 
> *Immovable Object*: The dice roll affecting both the length of the wall and the duration seems way too swingy: a 5-foot forcewall that lasts 6 seconds is useless in most scenarios (and still eats the resource) while a 50-foot forcewall that lasts a full minute can basically be a win condition. IMO, make the length equal to 5*conmod instead, then have just the duration be based on the psi roll. This is also a pretty strong ability: I would swap this with Psionic Restraints, so you'd get this at 6th level and Psionic Restraints at 3rd.
> 
> _I like that change for the length and will adopt. Also agree about the level swap. I was debating that one internally as I wrote it, but ultimately went for the cute naming theme over balance._ 
> I don't have any objections to *Shared Fury* on a mechanical level, but I'm not sure what's supposed to be happening in a narrative sense. The ranger is looking for tracks and the barbarian helps him by... what? How does "sharing his fury" help the wizard identify a magical effect or the cleric tell if somebody is lying? Maybe the name just needs a rethink?
> ...


For The Weaponsmith, I love the theme and I think that is an area of design that is lacking in 5e, both in the blandness of weapons and the missing archetype of the weapon expert/specialist. I've always wanted to play an artificer that wields a giant version of one of those hammer-staplers; that goes around stapling people's armor together at the joints, and this subclass pretty much lets me do so.  
The only nitpick I have is that it is not explicitly stated that the damage die starts at 1d4.  It is implied and pretty easy to suss out, but it might be better to state it outright.  Otherwise, excellent work.  I really enjoy it.

----------


## animorte

> Looks good. One thing I noticed: *Chronal Aptitude* needs to be reworded to keep you from accumulating infinite dice.


Thanks for the tip! It has received a minor update, a strict limit.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> For The Weaponsmith, I love the theme and I think that is an area of design that is lacking in 5e, both in the blandness of weapons and the missing archetype of the weapon expert/specialist. I've always wanted to play an artificer that wields a giant version of one of those hammer-staplers; that goes around stapling people's armor together at the joints, and this subclass pretty much lets me do so.  
> The only nitpick I have is that it is not explicitly stated that the damage die starts at 1d4.  It is implied and pretty easy to suss out, but it might be better to state it outright.  Otherwise, excellent work.  I really enjoy it.


It actually starts at 1d6: they're intended to be moderately more effective than existing weapon options. The base weapon stats are found in the header at the top of the tables and modified by the rows below as you add features.

----------


## RickAsWritten

> It actually starts at 1d6: they're intended to be moderately more effective than existing weapon options. The base weapon stats are found in the header at the top of the tables and modified by the rows below as you add features.


Welp...I feel silly; totally missed that.  Thought it was just part of the header, so my eyes skipped right over it.  Maybe make those cells a different color or put a hard border around them to differentiate?

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Welp...I feel silly; totally missed that.  Thought it was just part of the header, so my eyes skipped right over it.  Maybe make those cells a different color or put a hard border around them to differentiate?


Hopefully fixed the issue in a few ways. Updated the dice progression example to exclude all but the ones available (so from 1d4 up to 1d12, excluding 1d4, 2d6 and 2d8) to avoid confusion, relabeled the relevant row to "Base Stats" in both tables, specifically referenced the top of the tables as the location of the stats in the feature text, and then I also changed colors of the base stats row, so they should stand out nicely.

As another note, my research on appropriate weapon weight and cost modifiers was very basic. If anyone sees anything that stands out as wildly inappropriate, please let me know.

----------


## animorte

> Hopefully fixed the issue in a few ways. Updated the dice progression example to exclude all but the ones available (so from 1d4 up to 1d12, excluding 1d4, 2d6 and 2d8) to avoid confusion, relabeled the relevant row to "Base Stats" in both tables, specifically referenced the top of the tables as the location of the stats in the feature text, and then I also changed colors of the base stats row, so they should stand out nicely.


I have a few notes on the upgraded die size. So, the weapon you create has the base weapons damage die +1d6 (increasing up to base weapon damage +1d12 later, I get that). Correct?

But you also have a few weapon mods that note in the table +1 die size. It looks as though that extra mod for die size is in addition to the original bonus of +1d6. How will that alter the final base weapon mod of +1d12 and +1 die size for damage. (Advanced, double grip, bulky, and loading. Thats what Im referring to.)

_Overall this looks super cool and Im glad you came up with it. Many video games these days allow you to modify your weapons._

----------


## animorte

> *Unstoppable Force*
> This special movement allows you to move through an enemy creatures space. Each creature in that line must make a Saving throw against a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Constitution modifier.


What kind of saving throw does the enemy youre attempting to pulverize need to make? Strength to challenge the juggernaut? Or Dexterity to gtfo of the way?

This reminds me I made a 3.5e class some years ago based on the Unstoppable Force/Immovable Object concept. Thats about the only similarities though. I definitely like the direction you went with this.

----------


## RickAsWritten

> What kind of saving throw does the enemy youre attempting to pulverize need to make? Strength to challenge the juggernaut? Or Dexterity to gtfo of the way?
> 
> This reminds me I made a 3.5e class some years ago based on the Unstoppable Force/Immovable Object concept. Thats about the only similarities though. I definitely like the direction you went with this.


Oooh that's supposed to be Strength.  Good catch.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> I have a few notes on the upgraded die size. So, the weapon you create has the base weapons damage die +1d6 (increasing up to base weapon damage +1d12 later, I get that). Correct?
> 
> But you also have a few weapon mods that note in the table +1 die size. It looks as though that extra mod for die size is in addition to the original bonus of +1d6. How will that alter the final base weapon mod of +1d12 and +1 die size for damage. (Advanced, double grip, bulky, and loading. Thats what Im referring to.)
> 
> _Overall this looks super cool and Im glad you came up with it. Many video games these days allow you to modify your weapons._


Ah no, I see the confusion. The 1d6 IS the base weapon. You aren't starting from an existing weapon on the PHB weapon table, you always start with a generic base weapon of 1d6 then build your custom weapon from that base. So to make a "versatile rapier" you would choose the melee weapon as your base, pricing as your damage type, then add the precise, advanced, and mixed-grip properties.

I went through a few iterations of the feature, and one of them had you pick an existing weapon and modify it, but the system became too complex, with rules for both adding and removing traits.

----------


## animorte

> Ah no, I see the confusion. The 1d6 IS the base weapon. You aren't starting from an existing weapon on the PHB weapon table, you always start with a generic base weapon of 1d6 then build your custom weapon from that base. So to make a "versatile rapier" you would choose the melee weapon as your base, pricing as your damage type, then add the precise, advanced, and mixed-grip properties.
> 
> I went through a few iterations of the feature, and one of them had you pick an existing weapon and modify it, but the system became too complex, with rules for both adding and removing traits.


Ok. So that basically means your base weapon will start off slightly weaker than normal, but gain better modification benefits and deal more same later anyway? Hence the balance of some moods increasing damage. Make sense

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Ok. So that basically means your base weapon will start off slightly weaker than normal, but gain better modification benefits and deal more same later anyway? Hence the balance of some moods increasing damage. Make sense


Recent change on this front: the base weapons are now 1d8 martial weapons, with a new "User-Friendly" property that makes them count as simple. Before this change the break-even point was an int mod of +3, which I felt was too high a requirement for a third level fighter.

This should mean that even with an int mod of just +1 you should still be able to get good use out of this subclass.

----------


## animorte

> Recent change on this front: the base weapons are now 1d8 martial weapons, with a new "User-Friendly" property that makes them count as simple. Before this change the break-even point was an int mod of +3, which I felt was too high a requirement for a third level fighter.
> 
> This should mean that even with an int mod of just +1 you should still be able to get good use out of this subclass.


Very nice.

This question is still a concern to me though:



> How will that alter the final base weapon mod of +1d12 and _+1 die size_ for damage. (Advanced, double grip, bulky, and loading. Thats what Im referring to.)


Ill rephrase: After your weapons are at 1d12 base damage, there are extra mods that still bump the damage up (advanced, double grip, bulky, and loading). What will the new damage die be?

----------


## RickAsWritten

> Recent change on this front: the base weapons are now 1d8 martial weapons, with a new "User-Friendly" property that makes them count as simple. Before this change the break-even point was an int mod of +3, which I felt was too high a requirement for a third level fighter.
> 
> This should mean that even with an int mod of just +1 you should still be able to get good use out of this subclass.


So I put together one weapon of each type of what I would choose if I was playing this subclass. I didn't choose only the most objectively powerful options, just what I think would be the most fun. I'm working under the assumption of a +3 INT because that is relatively easy to attain on the naturally SAD fighter.  So I've got:

Meteor Hammer   12gp   1d10 bludgeoning   6lb.   Finesse, reach, heavy
Took: Extended, Precise, Bulky
Hand Trebuchet   56gp   1d10 bludgeoning   6lb.   Ammunition (range 80/320), loading, reload (8)
Took: Pistol Grip, Loading, Magazine
The melee weapon is a pretty awesome finesse, reach weapon that is impossible otherwise, and the ranged weapon is a weird gun thing that pretty much just a one handed heavy crossbow.  It allows the archer to hold a shield which is maybe troubling to some DM's, but I don't see an issue with it.  

Would an option to drastically reduce range (like down to thrown dagger, can't kite range) in exchange for a die size increase be viable? Maybe locked behind Bulky?

Also, can I take an option more than once...say Extended for super reach?

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Very nice.
> 
> This question is still a concern to me though:
> 
> Ill rephrase: After your weapons are at 1d12 base damage, there are extra mods that still bump the damage up (advanced, double grip, bulky, and loading). What will the new damage die be?


Unless I'm missing something, there shouldn't be a way to increase damage past 1d12 given the current modifiers. It begins at 1d8 and there are are two options for each weapon type that increase that by 1 die size each (double grip is melee only, loading is ranged only). Before the martial change it started at 1d6 and there were three options which increased the dice by 1, so the end result should have been the same for both. But that said, if there were to be a size increase past 1d12 it would be 2d6.




> So I put together one weapon of each type of what I would choose if I was playing this subclass. I didn't choose only the most objectively powerful options, just what I think would be the most fun. I'm working under the assumption of a +3 INT because that is relatively easy to attain on the naturally SAD fighter.  So I've got:
> 
> Meteor Hammer   12gp   1d10 bludgeoning   6lb.   Finesse, reach, heavy
> Took: Extended, Precise, Bulky
> Hand Trebuchet   56gp   1d10 bludgeoning   6lb.   Ammunition (range 80/320), loading, reload (8)
> Took: Pistol Grip, Loading, Magazine
> The melee weapon is a pretty awesome finesse, reach weapon that is impossible otherwise, and the ranged weapon is a weird gun thing that pretty much just a one handed heavy crossbow.  It allows the archer to hold a shield which is maybe troubling to some DM's, but I don't see an issue with it.  
> 
> Would an option to drastically reduce range (like down to thrown dagger, can't kite range) in exchange for a die size increase be viable? Maybe locked behind Bulky?
> ...


Great creations! Yes, the reload property allows for the use of a shield with the weapon, at least for a short fight. But then again by the time you get your infusions you can do that with magic too.

The intention is that each option is only available once (will clarify). For the basic table I had decided to only include properties which already exist as weapon modifiers in the base game (reload was a stretch because it's a firearm-specific property found in the DMG, but I felt its inclusion was important). Double reach or a "buckshot" effect would be the purview of a 15th level special feature, but those are pretty good suggestions, so I'll work on adding them.

EDIT: Added the Expanding and Close Quarters options to Revolutionary Armaments. Close quarters doesn't give you a dice-up (mostly because 1d12 is already possible on the ranged weapon options via loading and bulky) but the feature eliminates the 5-foot-disadvantage issue for ranged attacks while giving you advantage on attacks made vs someone within 5 feet of you. The feature decreases your base range, but isn't mutually exclusive with sighted or scoped.

----------


## animorte

> Unless I'm missing something, there shouldn't be a way to increase damage past 1d12 given the current modifiers. It begins at 1d8 and there are are two options for each weapon type that increase that by 1 die size each (double grip is melee only, loading is ranged only). Before the martial change it started at 1d6 and there were three options which increased the dice by 1, so the end result should have been the same for both. But that said, if there were to be a size increase past 1d12 it would be 2d6.


Haha, ok I think Ive got it. I was thinking the base damage would improve over time on its own for some reason, my apologies.




> Versatile Weapons always increase their damage dice by 1 size when wielded in two hands.
> 
> Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can reconfigure your signature weapon design as you please, but the number of options selected cannot exceed your intelligence modifier.


These two things are a good example of Im getting at.

Say, you are at 18 Intelligence (+4). This means you can have 4 mods on one weapon, right? Two of those mods can increase the damage die, effectively putting it at 1d12. Then you decide to wield your versatile weapon in 2 hands, effectively increasing the damage die one more time. So it would then be worth it to list what comes after, yes?

I believe your 1d6 was correct in accounting for this and I was just comprehending it wrong.

_Its been a long day and little sleep. My apologies again._

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Haha, ok I think Ive got it. I was thinking the base damage would improve over time on its own for some reason, my apologies.
> 
> 
> These two things are a good example of Im getting at.
> 
> Say, you are at 18 Intelligence (+4). This means you can have 4 mods on one weapon, right? Two of those mods can increase the damage die, effectively putting it at 1d12. Then you decide to wield your versatile weapon in 2 hands, effectively increasing the damage die one more time. So it would then be worth it to list what comes after, yes?
> 
> I believe your 1d6 was correct in accounting for this and I was just comprehending it wrong.
> 
> _Its been a long day and little sleep. My apologies again._


Double Grip and Mixed Grip are exclusive to each other, so you shouldn't be able to have them both. So you could either have a 1d10 versatile (1d12) weapon or a 1d12 two-handed weapon. Looking at this you might ask yourself "why would I have a two-handed weapon if a versatile weapon used in both hands is just as good?". Which is a great question I'm not sure I'm prepared to answer. Let me think about that a minute, lol.

----------


## animorte

> Double Grip and Mixed Grip are exclusive to each other, so you shouldn't be able to have them both. So you could either have a 1d10 versatile (1d12) weapon or a 1d12 two-handed weapon.


Oh, I was looking at Double Grip and Bulky. Those two added onto an already versatile weapon. But I see what I keep doing; I've been pretending as though you're taking pre-existing weapons and adding these properties. When in reality every single weapon made by this subclass is completely from scratch, with absolutely NO properties except Melee or Ranged, as you state at the beginning. The additional properties are added as a part of the crafting, or _Weaponsmithing_.

Ok, we're all good now. I understand. Proceed to ignore my silliness.

----------


## Damon_Tor

Circle of Fury: Neat idea.

I would simplify *Nature's Armory*. I like linking the new damage dice to shillelagh, but I would just unify all the weapons it effects to "1d10 damage, or 1d12 when wielded in two hands." and maybe just say you can use Shillelagh on any melee weapon with which you are proficient. No need for a table that way. I would also allow you to cast Shillelagh with the same bonus action you use Primal Fury to streamline turn 1.

*Primal Fury* needs a duration.

*Nature's Wrath* confuses me a bit. Why is this only for melee _spell_ attacks? Am I missing something elsewhere in the subclass that lets them make melee spell attacks in place of melee weapon attacks or something? Otherwise the effect is cool, and I _really really_ like the "critical blast" effect.

I want to like *Nature's Mercy,* it fits a druid very well in a thematic, poetic kind of sense, but it just doesn't seem very useful in most contexts, not enough to justify being a capstone. The only really good use I can think of this is to be able to interrogate things you've killed? But that's a very narrow use for an ability that comes very late in the game. (And my confusion regarding "melee spell attacks" repeats itself here.)

----------


## Jervis

Are there any noteworthy melee spell attacks I dont know about on the Druid list? 5e doesnt have many amazing ones in general, and the only one im thinking of for Druid is a cantrip.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Are there any noteworthy melee spell attacks I dont know about on the Druid list? 5e doesnt have many amazing ones in general, and the only one im thinking of for Druid is a cantrip.


There's Flame Blade. But it's not a spell to build a character around. My guess is, he got shillelagh mixed up with magic stone in his head. If so, easy fix, just change the class features in question to key off weapon attacks.

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## animorte

Are there ways we can market this contest? It's a really cool idea and even if a lot of people might not compete, they could still enjoy some creative designs and participate in votes.

----------


## Lvl45DM!

> Circle of Fury: Neat idea.
> 
> I would simplify *Nature's Armory*. I like linking the new damage dice to shillelagh, but I would just unify all the weapons it effects to "1d10 damage, or 1d12 when wielded in two hands." and maybe just say you can use Shillelagh on any melee weapon with which you are proficient. No need for a table that way. I would also allow you to cast Shillelagh with the same bonus action you use Primal Fury to streamline turn 1.
> 
> *Primal Fury* needs a duration.
> 
> *Nature's Wrath* confuses me a bit. Why is this only for melee _spell_ attacks? Am I missing something elsewhere in the subclass that lets them make melee spell attacks in place of melee weapon attacks or something? Otherwise the effect is cool, and I _really really_ like the "critical blast" effect.
> 
> I want to like *Nature's Mercy,* it fits a druid very well in a thematic, poetic kind of sense, but it just doesn't seem very useful in most contexts, not enough to justify being a capstone. The only really good use I can think of this is to be able to interrogate things you've killed? But that's a very narrow use for an ability that comes very late in the game. (And my confusion regarding "melee spell attacks" repeats itself here.)



I may have misread Shillelagh. To be clear I misread Shillelaghs spell description not the word. I just mispronounce and misspell the world. Sha-la-la. I am removing the melee spell attack stuff.

I think letting a druid go berserk, cast their signature spell, move and attack all in 1 round is alot? Primal Fury has a duration of 1 minute

Yes Nature's Mercy is pretty weird, but you are a Druid. If you can't find a use for the Mind-Flayer you turned into a squirrel that you can talk to, charm, dominate, Animal Handling etc, now that they aren't just non-hostile, but have a different alignment, I don't think you're trying hard enough. I could leave the part where the Awakened animal is charmed but it feels...silly. I did remove advantage on saves against being charmed etc. 


Also, thoughts on changing Natures Wrath a bit, simplifying it? Elemental is fun but hmm. I mean, doing extra frost damage in the arctic is useless. 

Ok keep Natures Wrath as it is OR

Lvl 10: Nature's Wrath: Mother Earth's anger surges through you, empowering your strikes with the righteous wrath of plant and beast. Any melee weapon attack you make deals extra d6 weapon damage as ghostly fangs, thorns, stingers and branches maul your target.
If you score a critical hit, in addition to the usual benefits you can force your target to make a CON save or be Poisoned by spectral snake fangs or scorpion stingers, a STR save or be Restrained by phantom plants or a DEX save or be Wounded by ethereal claws. 
They all last one minute get saves at the end of the round etc.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

Ok guys, i posted The Hermit, a sub-class that at the moment does not satisfy me at all. Even if the result is somehow elegant, at least IMHO, for now it is nothing more than a copy-paste of various barbarian signature features, with some words replaced. I still have doubts about the interaction of features with spell attack rolls only, I am considering making them more generic for all spells.

Either way, there is still work to be done!

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## nickl_2000

My own ideas are running dry, I'm sure I will come up with something, but I wanted to be better on reviews than I was in the past.  As a reminder, a lot of times I give a stream of conscious review about what I am thinking as I read it.   I also didn't look at other reviews, so I based it entirely off what I saw, not any other discussions.

*Spoiler: Barbarian: Path of the Psi-Fury*
Show



I like the idea of a barbarian that uses mental stats, so I'm excited to see what this has to offer.

*Unstoppable Force* - If moving through an opponents space is it considered difficult terrain?  If you are using the option rule of  opposed checks as part of the DMG it is, but I could see this overriding that.  I also am seeing flashes of the cool-aid man with this, breaking through walls and I'm highly entertained by the possibilities.  The balance of the ability seems fine.  You can do a lot of damage with it at early levels, but you are limited to a straight line.  Also something to consider, what happens if you use your bonus action to use this ability and your action to dash?  Can you use it for all the movement, or just the distance from your normal move.

*Psionic Restraints* - I don't see if there are opposed checks, or an attack, or what that makes this ability take place.  Also, on the second round of using it, I would have it replace the attack again instead of a full action.

*Clarity of Rage* - The ability here seems okay, the fluff around seems a little off to me.  How does pushing against fight or flight make it so you do better in a mental ability check?  I personally would look at changing other the ability or the name/fluff to make them match a bit better.

It is a little unusual that a barbarian doesn't have anything to do with rage at level 3.  It goes against the grain and design of the wotc subclasses, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but something to know that as you are considering this subclass.

*Immovable Object* - I'm not a fan of the fact that this is immune to damage and there is no way to break it outside of 2 spells.  Done right in a dungeon, you can easily block 1-2 enemies into a corner 

*Psychic Terrain* - So how does this interact with something like Spike Growth.  Spike Growth is difficult terrain, does it make it so you can move freely without damage, or you take damage but you don't get slowed?  How about something like stairs that is difficult terrain?

*Guarding Fury* - So they way you have this phrased to cure someone else you also need to charmed.  If you are charmed you can use a psy die to cure yourself.  Then you may also spend another to cure others.  Is that your intent?  Or can you spend a die to cure others without the one on you first?

Overall its an interesting subclass.  It's a very dynamic take on a class that has a tendency to be one dimensional.




*Spoiler: Martial Archetype: The Weaponsmith*
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I don't see an significant issues here, I do wonder if there could be a problem with this class making weapons for others.  Especially when you can make a weapon that is higher damage, two handed, and finesse.  Meaning that you could apply Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master to a finesse weapon.  I honestly am not sure if this will break anything in the long run, but it is something to consider for your design.

I do worry that you don't provide anything other than the weapons.  You can make weapons, but they are still mundane weapons.  If you pick up a magic weapon at level 5 you really aren't going to be using your subclass abilities until you hit level 10.

I wouldn't mind seeing some other things you can do with this class.  Maybe you can make a special attack x times per rest with a special weapon, maybe something else.



*Spoiler: Rogue: Hourglass*
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*Vigilant Acuity* - I don't see issues here, similar to Swashbuckler but a little less powerful since int comes up less often than cha.

*Perceptive Imposition* - How do you trigger the breaking of an hourglass?  Is it a bonus action, action, is it done as your roll like Bardic Inspiration to give a bonus?  If you use your reaction to grant the benefit to someone else as well, when do they have to use the bonus.  As in, I used my hourglass to get a bonus on my attack roll this turn and also use my reaction to give it to someone else.  That someone else get a bonus to their attack roll, for only their next turn?  Until they use it?  How exactly?

*Chronal Aptitude* - This seems overly complicated with being limited to int mod times per day at the end of a long rest.  I wouldn't bother when you are at 9th level already.  Just give one use back at the end of each short rest.  This isn't broken at this level at all and is significantly easier to write, track, and understand.

*Temporal Status* - I'm not sure on the point of this ability on a Rogue (or this spell in most situations).  Time Stop may be fitting to your theme, but it really kind of sucks, especially for a Rogue.  Basically you are giving yourself the ability to move around since once you cast and spell that impacts someone else or do damage to someone else it ends.

I like the time aspects of this, I like the idea on the rogue.  However, I would suggest you completely drop the 17th level ability for something else way more useful.  Foresight may be to powerful, but it would be fitting to the theme and actually be useful.





*Spoiler: Druid Archetype: Circle of Fury*
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*Lvl 2: Nature's Armoury* - I understand the different damages based on light, simple, and martial weapons.  However, I think it's an overcomplication that really isn't needed.  There is very little reason anyone would be using a club when they have proficiency in a weapon that will do a d12 damage.  I would personally just boost the damage for all of them to the same thing for the sake of simplicity and have it keep the same damage type as the base weapon.

*Lvl 2: Primal Fury* - I have one significant issue here, and that is that a Druid and "rage" more often than a barbarian.  You get 2 uses per short rest as a Druid, Barbs get 6 max until level 20.  As in at level 2 you will rage possibly 6 times in a day vs the Barbs 2.  So, the solutions.... don't make it the same as a barbarian, make the rage weaker or different (give different abilities, weakened abilities, etc).  Doing this will allow you to keep the flavor without stealing everything from the barbarian.

*Lvl 6: Furious Speed:* - Personal opinion, 2 attacks at level 6 is plenty and this isn't needed.

*Lvl 14: Nature's Mercy* - Huh, this one is interesting.  Since you don't charm the awakened animal, they would immediately come back as another creature that would likely attack you (since it did before and why wouldn't it now).  I guess I don't completely see the advantage of doing this, what does it gain you?  What do you imagine as being the usage of this ability?

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## Damon_Tor

> I think letting a druid go berserk, cast their signature spell, move and attack all in 1 round is alot? Primal Fury has a duration of 1 minute


In my experience, a build that needs two different bonus actions to be ready for combat feels bad. Now in this case shillelagh is a cantrip, which gives us another problem: the pressure on the player to simply "always cast shillelagh" whether or not combat is expected. That may or may not ruffle your feathers as a DM, but it's just an annoying extra thing you could avoid by simply allowing it to be cast at the same time you use your rage feature. Because shillelagh can be cast for free and thus be "always on" as a result, combining the two into one action wouldn't _actually_ change the power level of the class at all, it would just make it more user-friendly.

As an alternative, you could put an 8-hour duration on shillelagh as a part of its upgrade.




> Yes Nature's Mercy is pretty weird, but you are a Druid. If you can't find a use for the Mind-Flayer you turned into a squirrel that you can talk to, charm, dominate, Animal Handling etc, now that they aren't just non-hostile, but have a different alignment, I don't think you're trying hard enough. I could leave the part where the Awakened animal is charmed but it feels...silly. I did remove advantage on saves against being charmed etc.


Sure, there's a ton of roleplay opportunity in this sort of thing, but it's effectively a ribbon: the DM isn't compelled to give you any information or cooperation he wasn't already planning to. Ribbons are fine. Good, even, I like ribbons, they're great at helping the players and the DM find ways to tell their story collaboratively. But not as a capstone for a subclass that already sacrifices mechanically because it goes against the core role of the class. (<--That's not a criticism of the class, it's okay for a class to sacrifice raw power to broaden capabilities). A slight rewording to reduce the implied power of the ability (it imitates two/three different high-level druid spells, even if it does so in a mechanically neutral form) plus a shift to a lower level in the subclass would help a lot. For example, if you change the wording to make it more like it's an improved way to cast a mashup of "animal messenger" and "speak with dead" for example then all of a sudden it doesn't seem like it has to be such a high level ability, and those spells have a function which are closer to how this feature would be used.

At the same time, the ability as written is vague enough to invite abuse. Reincarnation has rules to decide the new race of the target, but this feature has no instructions on how to decide the new species. Who decides? The Druid? The Target? The DM operating as a "hand of fate"? All of those have drawbacks. Also, there's nothing stopping the druid from using this on a friendly creature, in theory, also leading to potentially strange results. Say a party member is at 0 HP and dying, taking damage from some effect or another that makes death almost certain. Could the druid could kill him himself and have him come back to life as a T-Rex? On the same token, if the beast selected is random or if the DM decides it could just as easily be a hindrance. Sure, you just killed that mindflayer, but instead of coming back as a squirrel he's now a sabretooth tiger, and he's still exactly as interested in eating your brains.




> Also, thoughts on changing Natures Wrath a bit, simplifying it? Elemental is fun but hmm. I mean, doing extra frost damage in the arctic is useless.


True, many creatures you would fight in the arctic would have resistance to cold. You could simply let the druid choose an element from a list of the "natural" elements (fire/cold/lightning/thunder/poison/acid) instead of linking it to the current surroundings.




> Ok keep Natures Wrath as it is OR
> 
> Lvl 10: Nature's Wrath: Mother Earth's anger surges through you, empowering your strikes with the righteous wrath of plant and beast. Any melee weapon attack you make deals extra d6 weapon damage as ghostly fangs, thorns, stingers and branches maul your target.
> If you score a critical hit, in addition to the usual benefits you can force your target to make a CON save or be Poisoned by spectral snake fangs or scorpion stingers, a STR save or be Restrained by phantom plants or a DEX save or be Wounded by ethereal claws. 
> They all last one minute get saves at the end of the round etc.


I'd be sad to see the "blast on crit" effect go, that was one of my favorite parts of what you'd written. I'm okay making the extra damage just be more weapon damage though.

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## Damon_Tor

> I don't see an significant issues here, I do wonder if there could be a problem with this class making weapons for others.  Especially when you can make a weapon that is higher damage, two handed, and finesse.  Meaning that you could apply Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master to a finesse weapon.  I honestly am not sure if this will break anything in the long run, but it is something to consider for your design.


It wouldn't be much different from sharpshooter + crossbow mastery except that the base die of the weapon is two sizes larger: effectively you're giving that build +2 to damage per attack. This subclass allows for quite a bit of extra build diversity that didn't exist otherwise, but I don't see that as a bad thing.




> I do worry that you don't provide anything other than the weapons.  You can make weapons, but they are still mundane weapons.  If you pick up a magic weapon at level 5 you really aren't going to be using your subclass abilities until you hit level 10.


That's an interesting point, one I hadn't really considered. Perhaps build into the 7th level feature an ability to preserve the enchantment of a magic weapon when you scrap it for parts, then transfer that enchantment to a signature weapon you build from those parts.




> I wouldn't mind seeing some other things you can do with this class.  Maybe you can make a special attack x times per rest with a special weapon, maybe something else.


I'll give it some thought, thanks.

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## nickl_2000

Following the trend of making angry subclasses, I put my own entry in there with the Monk, Way of the Rage Master.  You can be an angry, hulking, raging monk!





> It wouldn't be much different from sharpshooter + crossbow mastery except that the base die of the weapon is two sizes larger: effectively you're giving that build +2 to damage per attack. This subclass allows for quite a bit of extra build diversity that didn't exist otherwise, but I don't see that as a bad thing.
> 
> 
> That's an interesting point, one I hadn't really considered. Perhaps build into the 7th level feature an ability to preserve the enchantment of a magic weapon when you scrap it for parts, then transfer that enchantment to a signature weapon you build from those parts.
> 
> I'll give it some thought, thanks.


In agree that it gives some build diversity, and not only for you but for allies as well.  That is a very interesting ability to it and something cool you don't see in fighters all that often.

I like the ability to preserve the magical essence of a weapon and put it into your signature.  I would limit ranged to ranged and melee to melee to avoid trying to figure out what happens when you put something like a flametounge on a bow.

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## Damon_Tor

Added the following as an additional 3rd level ability:

*Improvised Innovation*
Also at third level, you are uniquely adept at quickly weaponizing your surroundings. You are proficient with improvised weapons, and as a bonus action you can add one of the options from the Melee Signature Weapon table to an improvised weapon you're holding. An improvised weapon cannot have more than 1 signature weapon option. This modification lasts 1 hour.
And this addendum to Iron Monger:

Also, you gain the ability to preserve the unique magical properties of any weapons you use for raw materials. As a part of crafting a signature weapon, you can transfer the enchantment from a magical weapon to the new weapon you create, destroying the original magical weapon in the process. An enchantment on a ranged weapon cannot be transferred to a melee weapon or vice versa.

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## nickl_2000

> Added the following as an additional 3rd level ability:
> 
> *Improvised Innovation*
> Also at third level, you're uniquely adept at quickly weaponizing your surroundings. You are proficient with improvised weapons, and as a bonus action you can add one of the options from the Melee Signature Weapon table to an improvised weapon you're holding. An improvised weapon cannot have more than 1 signature weapon option. This modification lasts 1 hour.
> And this addendum to Iron Monger:
> 
> Also, you gain the ability to preserve the unique magical properties of any weapons you use for raw materials. As a part of crafting a signature weapon, you can transfer the enchantment from a magical weapon to the new weapon you create, destroying the original magical weapon in the process. An enchantment on a ranged weapon cannot be transferred to a melee weapon or vice versa.


I like both of these, they are a good addition to the subclass.  More options that don't necessarily cause a big change in overall power level.

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## RickAsWritten

_Notes in italics in the spoiler._ 




> *Spoiler: Barbarian: Path of the Psi-Fury*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> I like the idea of a barbarian that uses mental stats, so I'm excited to see what this has to offer.
> 
> *Unstoppable Force* - If moving through an opponents space is it considered difficult terrain?  If you are using the option rule of  opposed checks as part of the DMG it is, but I could see this overriding that.  I also am seeing flashes of the cool-aid man with this, breaking through walls and I'm highly entertained by the possibilities.  The balance of the ability seems fine.  You can do a lot of damage with it at early levels, but you are limited to a straight line.  Also something to consider, what happens if you use your bonus action to use this ability and your action to dash?  Can you use it for all the movement, or just the distance from your normal move.
> 
> ...

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## animorte

> Following the trend of making angry subclasses, I put my own entry in there with the Monk, Way of the Rage Master.  You can be an angry, hulking, raging monk!


We should have called this the Angry Subclass Contest!  :Small Big Grin: 

--------------------

Offering a few points from my perception:

*Spoiler: Druid Archetype: Circle of Fury*
Show




> Lvl 10: Nature's Wrath: On a critical hit with a melee weapon attack, in addition to the usual effects you can also release either a 15' cone, 10ft cube or 30ft line of that energy damage, dealing d6+Wis mod, no save. You can only gain this benefit once per turn.
> 
> Lvl 14: Nature's Mercy: After rage must come peace, and after violence must come healing. When you slay a creature with a melee weapon attack, you gain the ability to cast Reincarnate upon them without spending a spell slot. This ability does not work on Undead, Constructs. They come back as an Awakened Beast (Except for Oozes, Oozes always become Awakened Plants for some reason). The exact type of Beast will be determined by your DM, but is limited to CR 2 or lower.
> Their alignment is changed one step towards True Neutral, their Int is raised to 10 if it was lower. They have memories of their past life, but none of their abilities. They may keep 2 skill proficiencies if they had any. They remember that you killed them and as such are NOT charmed by you. Otherwise, their new perspective means they are not hostile to you.
> You may only perform this ability once, regaining use of it when you finish a long rest.


Nature's Wrath: Three different kinds of AoE to choose from is versatile, but doesn't fit all the elements, IMO. You could model it after each dragon breath weapon having a specific AoE.

Nature's Mercy doesn't really seem to serve a direct purpose. My suggestion would be that you could spawn an elemental, relevant to the current environment, that has a newfound respect for the cycle of life. Maybe it isn't hostile toward you, but might help to defend nature with you for the next hour (or more) before going off on its own.

I've always appreciated (and been wary of) the concept of nature fighting back against the disrespect expressed by its inhabitants. This was a clever way to embody that.


*Spoiler: The Hermit*
Show




> *The Hermit Table*
> Level
> Trances
> Trance Damage
> 
> 2nd
> 2
> +1
> 
> ...





> Ok guys, i posted The Hermit, a sub-class that at the moment does not satisfy me at all. Even if the result is somehow elegant, at least IMHO, for now it is nothing more than a copy-paste of various barbarian signature features, with some words replaced. I still have doubts about the interaction of features with spell attack rolls only, I am considering making them more generic for all spells.


You mentioned being worried about only applying bonuses to spell attack rolls. The only place I can see this being an issue is with an AoE like _fireball._ Perhaps you could include in your table an increase in Save difficulty strictly on your damaging spells (fits with the theme). It would increase with level exactly the same way as the bonus damage and only while in a Trance.

I think simplicity is a great foundation to build on, no matter where you take this. And you inspired me to build Eric "Play with Squirrels" Matthews. How, I'm not quite sure.


*Spoiler: Monk Way of the Rage Master*
Show




> *Embracing the Anger*
> At level 3 a rage monk learns to embrace their anger and channel their ki into it as a bonus action.  At the cost of 2 ki, they embrace the rage to gain the following abilities:
> Monk Weapons and Unarmed Strikes for 1d10 damage, when you reach level 11 Monk Weapons and Unarmed Strikes deal 1d12 damage, when you reach level 17 Monk Weapons and Unarmed Strikes deal 2d8 damage.You gain temporary HP equal to your monk level.  This temporary hp lasts until the rage ends.


For clarification, are you allowed to use all Monk abilities while raging (Flurry of Blows, Stunning Strike, etc.)? If so, 1d10 at level 3 might have some crazy numbers. I would personally start 1d8 (which is still double base Monk) and improving from there: 1d10 at 6th, 1d12 at 11th, and 2d8 at 17th.

I mean, there's also the Ki count as a very well balanced usage limit so maybe I'm just giving it too much thought.

Really amusing take on an alternate path. Monk's don't usually flex their way to victory.

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## animorte

> My own ideas are running dry, I'm sure I will come up with something, but I wanted to be better on reviews than I was in the past.  As a reminder, a lot of times I give a stream of conscious review about what I am thinking as I read it.   I also didn't look at other reviews, so I based it entirely off what I saw, not any other discussions.
> 
> *Spoiler: Rogue: Hourglass*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Vigilant Acuity* - I don't see issues here, similar to Swashbuckler but a little less powerful since int comes up less often than cha.
> 
> ...


Taking suggestions and applying them accordingly, very much appreciated! Here are some notes along the way:

*Perceptive Imposition:* I've adjusted some wording to specify what type of actions should be required.

*Chronal Aptitude:* This initially was precisely as you mentioned, but I received some advice about a concern (quoted below) and then modified it. BUT, I've had an entirely different idea to better account for both of these recommendations.



> Looks good. One thing I noticed: *Chronal Aptitude* needs to be reworded to keep you from accumulating infinite dice.


*Temporal Stasis:* I agree, my very first consideration was _foresight_ (and a different name) but hesitation spoke to me in the form of, "free advantage for Rogue all day?" Mega-strooonk... especially compared to other subclass Rogue level 17 features. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with this capstone, haha. _Any suggestions? Anybody?_

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## Old Harry MTX

Thankyou for your tips! 




> You mentioned being worried about only applying bonuses to spell attack rolls. The only place I can see this being an issue is with an AoE like _fireball._ Perhaps you could include in your table an increase in Save difficulty strictly on your damaging spells (fits with the theme). It would increase with level exactly the same way as the bonus damage and only while in a Trance.


More than increasing the DC of saving throws i was thinking in something like "choose a creature affected by the spell effects before you cast. you gain a bonus to the damage dealt to that creature, if any, that increases as you gain levels as a wizard, as shown in the Trance Damage column of the Hermit table."

And maybe, you could choose two creature instead of one from 6th level. 

Now you have to consider that giving disadvantage on a saving throws means roughly giving a malus of -2/-3, so I am worried that increasing the saving throws would be too strong. Also, increasing the damage is more in line with the "raging origin". 




> I think simplicity is a great foundation to build on, no matter where you take this. And you inspired me to build Eric "Play with Squirrels" Matthews. How, I'm not quite sure.


OK, now I'm curious... Who is Eric "Play with Squirrels" Matthews?

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## Lvl45DM!

> *Spoiler: Druid Archetype: Circle of Fury*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Lvl 2: Primal Fury* - I have one significant issue here, and that is that a Druid and "rage" more often than a barbarian.  You get 2 uses per short rest as a Druid, Barbs get 6 max until level 20.  As in at level 2 you will rage possibly 6 times in a day vs the Barbs 2.  So, the solutions.... don't make it the same as a barbarian, make the rage weaker or different (give different abilities, weakened abilities, etc).  Doing this will allow you to keep the flavor without stealing everything from the barbarian.
> 
> *Lvl 6: Furious Speed:* - Personal opinion, 2 attacks at level 6 is plenty and this isn't needed.
> 
> *Lvl 14: Nature's Mercy* - Huh, this one is interesting.  Since you don't charm the awakened animal, they would immediately come back as another creature that would likely attack you (since it did before and why wouldn't it now).  I guess I don't completely see the advantage of doing this, what does it gain you?  What do you imagine as being the usage of this ability?


Ah yes that is a problem with Primal Fury. I'm changing it to give more animalistic traits. Speed, perception and your choice of Strength, Dex or Con advantages. That also gets rid of the extra stuff at level 6.

Natures Mercy needs a revamp, I'm working on it.

Natures Wrath is also WIP. I think AoE claws bursting out hits the note im feeling better. Ive always viewed druids as a having 3 areas of expertise, animals, plants and elements. This is an animal-based subclass i feel.

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## nickl_2000

> We should have called this the Angry Subclass Contest! 
> 
> --------------------
> 
> *Spoiler: Monk Way of the Rage Master*
> Show
> 
> 
> For clarification, are you allowed to use all Monk abilities while raging (Flurry of Blows, Stunning Strike, etc.)? If so, 1d10 at level 3 might have some crazy numbers. I would personally start 1d8 (which is still double base Monk) and improving from there: 1d10 at 6th, 1d12 at 11th, and 2d8 at 17th.
> ...


Thanks for taking a look, I really depend on others feedback to keep my ideas in check and appreciate everything I can get.  The borrowed Rage is intented to make it so you can't cast or concentrate on spells if you multiclass, so you are free to use your monk abilities.  I do see your point that 1d10 may be a little much at level 3 and wondered about that myself.  

To run the numbers, a monk at level 3 would likely be using a Spear or a Quarterstaff.  So, they are doing an average of 4.5 damage with their normal attack and the 2.5 with their bonus action unarmed strike.  So, normally assuming that you hit everything you are looking at a standard DPS of 7 + (2 x dex mod).  Over the course of a 4 round battle you are likely looking at 52ish damage (assuming you don't flurry).

A monk raging will average 5.5 + dex damage on round 1, then 11 + (2 x dex mod) after round one.  Over the course of a 4 round battle you are looking at around 51 + 8.5 = 59.5 damage.  So, with the "raging" you get 3 THP and net about an extra 8 damage.

If you use all your ki to flurry rage damage = 68 damage.  Normal monk damage = 68.5.

So, as I look at it more, at least at level 3 you are sacrificing .5 damage overall to get 3 THP, which seems online in power.  However, this is assuming a 4 round battle and I only ran the numbers for level 3.  I am open to changing, but does this make a difference in your opinion?


-----------------
This was submitted as I was doing the othe reviews

*Spoiler: The Hermit*
Show



Sweet, another borrowing from Barbarians :)  An angry wizard this time?

*Reckless Casting* - This one is interesting on a wizard.  I actually see this as more effective than the barbarian reckless attack, especially since the goal of much of the rest of the party is to keep people away from the squishie.  Assuming that they are doing their job, there may not be all that much in the way or repercussions in using this like a barbarian will see.  Still, there are lots of ways to gain advantage on attacks, so it seems okay to me (especially since the most devastating wizard spells aren't spell attacks but saves).

I don't see any issues here really.  It borrows nicely from the rage mechanic (although less angry than some of our other entries) and doesn't feel broken in any real way.  I like it.

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## Old Harry MTX

> Sweet, another borrowing from Barbarians :)  An angry wizard this time?
> 
> *Reckless Casting* - This one is interesting on a wizard.  I actually see this as more effective than the barbarian reckless attack, especially since the goal of much of the rest of the party is to keep people away from the squishie.  Assuming that they are doing their job, there may not be all that much in the way or repercussions in using this like a barbarian will see.  Still, there are lots of ways to gain advantage on attacks, so it seems okay to me (especially since the most devastating wizard spells aren't spell attacks but saves).
> 
> I don't see any issues here really.  It borrows nicely from the rage mechanic (although less angry than some of our other entries) and doesn't feel broken in any real way.  I like it.


Thankyou for your review!

Exactly, my idea was to create a sort of arcane Rage, while trying to give the feeling of a diametrically opposite thing. A tranquility of the mind rather than a bloodlust fury.
As I said before, the thing that convinces me less is the fact that the features apply only to spell attack rolls, I am studying a version to extend them to all spells that inflict damage, without breaking it or distorting its barbarian origins.

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## Damon_Tor

> Thankyou for your review!
> 
> Exactly, my idea was to create a sort of arcane Rage, while trying to give the feeling of a diametrically opposite thing. A tranquility of the mind rather than a bloodlust fury.
> As I said before, the thing that convinces me less is the fact that the features apply only to spell attack rolls, I am studying a version to extend them to all spells that inflict damage, without breaking it or distorting its barbarian origins.


You could give them the ability to turn any spell that would normally be a dex save into a spell attack instead. Turn half damage on a save to half damage on a miss. It wouldn't change that much, but it would allow them to crit, which could then play into other features that play off crits.

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## Old Harry MTX

> You could give them the ability to turn any spell that would normally be a dex save into a spell attack instead. Turn half damage on a save to half damage on a miss. It wouldn't change that much, but it would allow them to crit, which could then play into other features that play off crits.


That's an interesting idea, I really like that you suggested applying this to Dexterity saving throws only, it's smooth.

The problem is that if you replace every saving throw made by all creatures within range of a fireball with a spell attack roll you would have to add the damage bonus to each spell attack roll, and the result would be too strong. Maybe I could replace it only for a chosen creature, or apply it only to spells that target a single creature (as twinned spell already does).

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## Damon_Tor

> That's an interesting idea, I really like that you suggested applying this to Dexterity saving throws only, it's smooth.
> 
> The problem is that if you replace every saving throw made by all creatures within range of a fireball with a spell attack roll you would have to add the damage bonus to each spell attack roll, and the result would be too strong. Maybe I could replace it only for a chosen creature, or apply it only to spells that target a single creature (as twinned spell already does).


I mean, evocation wizards and dragon sorcerers add bonus damage to all the targets of a fireball. It's probably fine.

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## Old Harry MTX

> I mean, evocation wizards and dragon sorcerers add bonus damage to all the targets of a fireball. It's probably fine.


Makes sense.

I made these changes (are temporarily highlighted in blue in the subclass post):*Trance.* Extended the damage bonus to all spells, similar to the Evocation wizard, although the bonus is presumably smaller and grows slower.
In the previous version it was applied to every spell attack roll, while now only works on a single damage roll, so spells with multiple attack rolls are now weaker. However, I preferred to leave it like this to not make it too wordy, and to avoid possible shenanigans with Eldritch Blast.*Reckless Casting.* Now it can also gives disadvantage to the first saving throws of a chosen target. I didn't follow Damon_Tor's suggestion to replace Dexterity saving throws with spell attack rolls because otherwise I could have given disadvantage to too many targets via this feature.*Arcane Critical.* Now also works when a target rolls a 1 on a saving throw. I basically introduced the magical Critical Failure along with the magical Critical Success.

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## MoleMage

Hey all.

I have some personal stuff building up and I need to take a break from formatting and then abandoning managing these contests (and most likely from participating in them) for a couple months. 
For good or ill I should have a more settled life by September or so, and I can come back and start up again then, but for ending this contest and starting the next one, does anyone feel like interim managing?

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## Old Harry MTX

> Hey all.
> 
> I have some personal stuff building up and I need to take a break from formatting and then abandoning managing these contests (and most likely from participating in them) for a couple months. 
> For good or ill I should have a more settled life by September or so, and I can come back and start up again then, but for ending this contest and starting the next one, does anyone feel like interim managing?


Don't worry man! I'm sure I or one of the other regulars will be able to take care of everything for you!

Take care of yourself!

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## nickl_2000

> Hey all.
> 
> I have some personal stuff building up and I need to take a break from formatting and then abandoning managing these contests (and most likely from participating in them) for a couple months. 
> For good or ill I should have a more settled life by September or so, and I can come back and start up again then, but for ending this contest and starting the next one, does anyone feel like interim managing?


I can take care of it MoleMage.  Do what you need for your personal life and don't worry about us.

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## Lvl45DM!

Glad you're getting help Molemage! Thanks for stepping up nickl.

Tweaked Circle of Fury Druid. I went with claw/bite AoE on the crit for Natures Wrath and have attempted to streamline Natures Mercy.

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## animorte

> Glad you're getting help Molemage! Thanks for stepping up nickl.
> 
> Tweaked Circle of Fury Druid. I went with claw/bite AoE on the crit for Natures Wrath and have attempted to streamline Natures Mercy.


It would make sense because MoleMage and nickl_2000 are both 7-time victors, the former in base class, the latter in subclass. Yes, we appreciate it greatly!

Nature's Wrath and Nature's Mercy look so much more focused, much easier to read and apply. I like it! The only concern for clarity: after 8 hours and the creature succeeds, they _may_ become hostile. If the creature fails, does it just go off on its own to learn how to live this nature spirit new life? Either way, clearly no loyalty to you. Makes sense to me. If it stays alive, it's like you're leaving a longer lasting effect on the world in the name of nature's justice, true to nothing and nobody else.




> OK, now I'm curious... Who is Eric "Play with Squirrels" Matthews?


*Spoiler: Eric "Plays With Squirrels" Matthews*
Show


Boy Meets World. Alternate future in which the friends aren't friends anymore and he goes off to live as a hermit, then shows up at the the reunion.

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## Old Harry MTX

> Boy Meets World. Alternate future in which the friends aren't friends anymore and he goes off to live as a hermit, then shows up at the the reunion.


Hahaha, perfect!

I made the last few adjustments to The Hermit, now I'm at least happy with the result.

Hope to find some time to reviews the other entries!

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## Lvl45DM!

My Reviews!

*Spoiler: Path of the Psi-Fury*
Show


Love the concept. Psychic Fury is fun. I was a little sad that it's mostly Force Effects, but I get it.

*Unstoppable Force* is excellent, but when you say non-magical objects are vulnerable do you mean they can be damaged or take twice damage? I would reword it. I would also make it x2 damage in case that wasnt your intent.

*Psionic Restraints* is a little unclear if you actually have to grapple them or if its a mental affect? I assume its a psionic enhancement to a normal grapple.

*Clarity of Rage* is thematically strange. Can I ask why Int, Wis, Cha? Why not Str/Dex? Also, only expend the die if the roll succeeds, I don't like. Die rolls should be risks.

*Immovable Object* I definitely feel is...look I don't know if its overpowered, but I don't like it. 6th level is just too soon for it. I know you want the parallel of Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object, but your Unstoppable Force isn't Unstoppable. I would make it more akin to a Wall of Ice, dealing force damage instead of cold, perhaps being based on Psionic Die. 

*Psychic Terrain* by way of contrast is a creative idea, but perhaps overly niche and complicated. Instead of the combo of Unstoppable Force with it, just have you able to switch it from normal terrain to difficult terrain.

10th and 14th level abilities are all good, but if I may suggest a tweak? Shared Fury grants them a speed boost while moving through your Psychic Terrain.




*Spoiler: Weaponsmith*
Show



This is a marvellous idea really fills a niche that we didn't know we needed filled.

What does the Reload mechanic acheive? Im no expert (or Crossbow Expert) on these rules but you reload automatically as part of your next attack. Does it overrule the Loading property allowing you to make multiple attacks in a round?

I also might be missing something but...are you proficient in your Signature Weapon?

*Improvised Innovation*, *Iron Monger*, and *Arcane Infusions* are all fine abilities doing exactly what you'd want. 

*Revolutionary Armaments*: Defensive feels a little weak for 15th level. +2 but doesn't work with a shield?
Quickdraw also feels a little weak. Perhaps it gives advantage on your first attack with it due to the surprising speed
Silent and Payload feel like they'd be better off as 3rd level rather than 15th, but with a drawback of -1 dmg dice rather than 15th. At 15th level I'm shooting Dragons and Beholders, a silent bowstring doesn't feel like much.

What is missing from your list is a combo weapon. Swordbows are common enough in fantasy. How do I swordbow bro? Maybe a Returning property as well for the melee weapon that needs to be stacked onto Balance?




*Spoiler: Hourglass*
Show



*Perceptive Imposition*
This...is a lot isnt it? Its just better than bardic inspiration. Useable less often, sure. but, like, vastly superior, especially using a reaction. 

I love, love love *Recalibration though!*

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## Damon_Tor

> What does the Reload mechanic acheive? Im no expert (or Crossbow Expert) on these rules but you reload automatically as part of your next attack. Does it overrule the Loading property allowing you to make multiple attacks in a round?


Yes, it works with the loading feature so that you only have to take the reload bonus action every X shots (8 in this case) instead of after every shot.




> I also might be missing something but...are you proficient in your Signature Weapon?


Yes. It's a martial weapon, so anyone proficient with martial weapons is proficient with it. One of the options available will make it count as a simple weapon instead, which means you could make them for allies who don't have martial proficiency, and you could do things like have them count as monk weapons.




> *Revolutionary Armaments*: Defensive feels a little weak for 15th level. +2 but doesn't work with a shield?


The thing about AC is, the more you have, the better each +1 is. On a wizard, +1 to AC isn't great, it might reduce the damage you take by 10%. On a fighter, that +1 to AC goes much further, and might reduce incoming damage by 25%. That said, I think a buff to a +2 while the weapon is wielded in both hands is appropriate to make it a viable property on more builds.* EDIT:* Feature added.




> Quickdraw also feels a little weak. Perhaps it gives advantage on your first attack with it due to the surprising speed


It's a good idea, but I'm not sure about the implementation. I agree it's weak compared to some of the other options. I'll consider some alternatives.
*EDIT:* Added the following: "When you roll initiative you can make one weapon attack with this weapon as a reaction."



> Silent and Payload feel like they'd be better off as 3rd level rather than 15th, but with a drawback of -1 dmg dice rather than 15th. At 15th level I'm shooting Dragons and Beholders, a silent bowstring doesn't feel like much.


I feel like these are two of the strongest options here in terms of brute-force mechanics. Staying hidden when you attack is massive, it means you go from 1 attack with advantage and 7 without to all 8 attacks with advantage (and at the end of your turn you're still hidden). Payload straight-up adds +2d6 acid damage on every attack, with wiggle room for other payloads if you know you're facing undead or specifically need fire damage for some reason. The offset of the acid ammo might be how expensive it is (25 gp per shot), but for a 15th level character (and one that has features which help it make money faster during downtime to boot) this is largely mitigated. On a third level character though, the cost of the acid would be prohibitive.




> What is missing from your list is a combo weapon. Swordbows are common enough in fantasy. How do I swordbow bro? Maybe a Returning property as well for the melee weapon that needs to be stacked onto Balance?


The combo weapon is a good idea, I'll work on that. Returning is already available as an infusion at 10th level. *EDIT:* Combo weapon added

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## animorte

> *Spoiler: Hourglass*
> Show
> 
> 
> *Perceptive Imposition*
> This...is a lot isnt it? Its just better than bardic inspiration. Useable less often, sure. but, like, vastly superior, especially using a reaction. 
> 
> I love, love love *Recalibration though!*


Thank you for taking a look!

I agree. It was intended to be a little stronger being the entire identity of the subclass, providing supportive options not commonly found among Rogues, and lacking the spells to do so.

I debated moving the Intelligence modifier bonus for the rolls to level 9 feature or removing it entirely, but it feels weak late game (especially weak for blocking damage).

I think the reaction is fair, as it trades for potential additional Sneak Attacks.

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## RickAsWritten

> *Spoiler: Path of the Psi-Fury*
> Show
> 
> 
> Love the concept. Psychic Fury is fun. I was a little sad that it's mostly Force Effects, but I get it.
> 
> *Unstoppable Force* is excellent, but when you say non-magical objects are vulnerable do you mean they can be damaged or take twice damage? I would reword it. I would also make it x2 damage in case that wasnt your intent.
> 
> *Psionic Restraints* is a little unclear if you actually have to grapple them or if its a mental affect? I assume its a psionic enhancement to a normal grapple.
> ...


Ok, I made some broad revisions and, hopefully, tightened up the wording.  Thanks to Lvl45DM!, Damon_Tor, and nickl_2000 for the suggestions. It's in a much better place now but please let me know of any incongruities or balance issues.  I'll try to get some reviews done over the weekend, but can't promise anything.

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## Lvl45DM!

> Yes. It's a martial weapon, so anyone proficient with martial weapons is proficient with it. One of the options available will make it count as a simple weapon instead, which means you could make them for allies who don't have martial proficiency, and you could do things like have them count as monk weapons.
> 
> 
> The combo weapon is a good idea, I'll work on that. Returning is already available as an infusion at 10th level. *EDIT:* Combo weapon added


D'you know what, I got this class backwards, and thought it was an Artificer subclass not a Fighter Subclass. A lot of the ideas do work better with that in mind.

Yesssss AxeCrossbow

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## Jervis

Well my chamelon bard is done. Probably broken but it should be interesting at least. https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...76&postcount=5

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## Ilerien

> Well my chamelon bard is done. Probably broken but it should be interesting at least. https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...76&postcount=5


A curious take on 3.5e Chameleon. My own one for the previous contest of the same theme was based on monk (as per 3.5e class lore, and monk chassis are kinda easy to build on), let's see what we can do with bard.
*Spoiler: Minor Aptitude Focus*
Show





> At 3rd level you gain the ability to shift your abilities. After you finish a long rest you can spend an hour to assume a aptitude focus and gain one of the benefits below. These benefits last until you use this feature again. If a benefit requires you to make a choice you can make a different one each time you choose the same benefit.
> 
> *Brawling Mastery*: Your unarmed strikes deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage. If you are not holding a weapon or a shield in either hand they instead deal 1d8 bludgeoning damage.
> 
> *Magic Versatility*: Choose one cantrip from any class, you learn that spell and it is a bard spell for you, but it doesn't count against the number of bard spells you know. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for that spell. Additionally you can also use your choice of a Arcane focus, Divine Focus, or Druidic focus for your bard spells.
> 
> *Martial Training*: You gain proficiency in medium armor as well as your choice of shields or one martial weapon of your choice.
> 
> *Skill Study*: You become proficient in one skill, tool, or vehicle of your choice.


Pretty straightforward, one switchable bonus. Maybe drop that extra hour through? Adds to awkwardness: the party would have to do nothing for one more hour because the bard wants to meditate a bit.
Brawling Mastery probably won't see much use barring niche case of having to compete in brawling match. Maybe allow them to use dexterity for unarmed strikes as well? Would be more in line with monk.
Magic Versatility is good. A bard can benefit a lot from switchable cantrip from any class list. Although I'm curious: can this bard take agonizing blast with Eldritch Adept if they happen to have eldritch blast during level up? Using any focus might come in handy as well.
Martial Training is kind of an option that enforces itself if your bard chooses it. You either take it and use it for extended periods of time coz switching between light and medium armor and using or not using a shield depending on your decision at the start of any adventuring day is awkward. But, well, if you suddenly find a vorpal greataxe, and your fighter somehow doesn't want it...
Skill Study is good. Adds significantly to skill monkey tendencies bards have in general, but you have to specify you can't fulfill requirements for your expertise class feature (and, to be extra safe, point out it doesn't count as proficiency when learning new features from any class, feats and whatnot).
*Spoiler: Backpedal*
Show





> Also at 3rd level you gain the ability to change a person's perception of you quickly. When you fail a Charisma skill or ability check you can use your reaction to expend a use of your bardic inspiration, roll your bardic inspiration die, and add the roll to that check which can possibly change the result.


A nice boost for social tier. Sadly, not applicable to counterspells as it's a reaction. Maybe make the cost free, just specify once per turn? Additionally, I'd fix the wording: "when you fail a Charisma check" includes both skill and raw ability checks automatically.
*Spoiler: Major Aptitude Focus*
Show




> At 6th level you gain the ability to expend your aptitude focus. Whenever you assume a aptitude focus you can choose one of the following options in addition to one option from your minor aptitude focus list. These benefits last until you assume a aptitude focus again.
> 
> *Divine Strike*: Your melee weapon attacks deal an additional 1d8 Radiant or Necrotic damage (your choice).
> 
> *Extra Attack*: When you take the attack action on your turn you can make a second attack as part of the same action.
> 
> *Minor Magical Secrets*: Choose one spell from any class's spell list, you know that spell and it is a bard spell for you but does not count against your number of bard spells known. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for this spell.
> 
> *Skill Expertise*: Choose one skill, tool, or vehicle you are proficient in, you gain expertise in that meaning you add double your proficiency to skill checks involving that.


More switchable features, yay!
Divine Strike is... okay-ish? Maybe steal cleric's Blessed Strikes from Tasha's? Add it to cantrip damage as well. And/or maybe change the damage die to be the same as your inspiration die.
Extra Attack is good if you have shadow blade or any other means to boost your weapon attack damage. And can't use Divine Strike simultaneously until level 14.
Minor Magical Secrets is the eponymous class feature on steroids. I find it hard to justify using any other option instead of it. Also, no spell level restriction? Can I take 6th levels of this bard, 9 levels of hexblade warlock and have swift quiver even if I have no means of casting 5th level spells as a bard?
Skill Expertise is more skill monkey goodness. I'd specify you can choose the same skill/tool/vehicle you've chosen for your Minor Aptitude, but you lose the benefit if you opt out of the Minor Aptitude one.
*Spoiler: Multifocus*
Show




> At 14th level you gain the ability to adopt multiple focuses for your abilities. When you adopt a aptitude focus you can choose two options form your Minor Aptitude Focus list and two options from your Major Aptitude Focus list instead of one from each.


Self-explanatory and a huge power boost. Now we can grab all the melee options and become a decent frontliner, probably better than Swords or Valor bard. Pity we had to wait for 13 levels to be able to do it. Still, I'd probably make spellcasting- and skill-related options my go-to ones and wouldn't even bother taking the others.

Overall I like the premise. The execution suffers from huge discrepancy in power and usefulness between options of the same tier. Also, personally I'd like to see more tight coupling between a subclass and class chassis it's built on, in this case, more ties to bardic inspiration (even if it's just reference to die size) and other bard class features.
Might want to introduce the ability to switch aptitudes at the end of short rest somewhere down the line as well. Would increase versatility drastically.

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## bandti

Decided to throw my hat in the ring with the Diabolist Artificer! This subclass is loosely based around the Devil Forgemasters from Castlevania and basically serves as a reverse fiend-warlock, from which it borrows some of its spell list from. Feedback and advice appreciated!

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## nickl_2000

> Decided to throw my hat in the ring with the Diabolist Artificer! This subclass is loosely based around the Devil Forgemasters from Castlevania and basically serves as a reverse fiend-warlock, from which it borrows some of its spell list from. Feedback and advice appreciated!


Awesome, glad to see more people coming to join the contest.  I will try to check and comment on any new entries tomorrow.

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## nickl_2000

More entries, more reviews  :Small Big Grin: 

*Spoiler: Arcane Tradition: Ultimate Magic*
Show



Unbound Arcana - I'm not really a huge fan of expanding the wizard spell list even larger than it already is, but in looking it seemed like there were only about 8 spells that the sorcerer has that the wizard doesn't.  So, that shouldn't make a huge difference.  Water walk is the only one I would worry about since it's a ritual and I'm really don't think Wizards need more rituals.  

Spellcasting Versatility - I appreciate that this comes later than the sorcerer and gives less options.  Is there a max amount of points you can have?

Speedy Recovery - Was charisma modifier on purpose?  I think it is, but just making sure.

Spell Mastery - This one worries me from a power level perspective.  Getting 2 more spells to cast at will at level 1 is pretty powerful.  Now you can have Silvery Barbs, Shield, and something else.  Empowering Magic Missile would be pretty awesome.  Infinite subtle charm is pretty broken in certain campaigns as well.  I honestly am not sure what the solution would be here, maybe only give 1 bonus spell instead of 2?

You did a really good job borrowing metamagic without taking the Sorcerer's main schtick.  I appreciate that.




*Spoiler: Diabolist*
Show



Diabolist Spells - Seems like a good collection and a good choice for the subclass

The Contractor - This needs something in there that allows you to recreate the device if it is lost/stolen/broken.  Usually this is done over a short rest.  The other thing I'm struggling with is that it appears you can do multiple summons at once.  As in, at level 3 I can spend 2 spell slots to summon 2 sets of creatures at once.  If that is the intent, I would look at removing it since it would be extremely powerful, if it isn't clarify it a little better.

Hellfire Proficiency - I would have to see how this played out, but giving a +4 to attack rolls seems like it might break bounded accuracy.  Also, does this apply to melee attacks, ranged, attack, spell attacks, or all of the above?

Fiends Arsenal - Does this count as one of your infusions used or is it an extra one?

Highway to Hell - immediately after you sacrifice the demons to summons a higher level one, can you summon more through the contract feature?

Overall, I like the idea of the subclass.  It is very different than what is currently out there and that's a great thing.  There are some things in there that are confusing to how they are designed to function and interact, so the language needs to be tightened up a little bit.




*Spoiler: Oath of Anarchy*
Show



Wow, those tenants are going to be hard to live with in a normal campaign, especially the third one.

Ohh a Rage Paladin, we didn't have one of those yet!

Oath Spells -  A lot of damage spells here.  They make sense for someone who wants to destroy buildings and such, but you might run into a situation where there are to many choices and some feel like duplications.  Not really a bad thing though, but it does reduce some of the overall power of the subclass.

Righteous Fury - I thought at first you reduced the damage done on smites while "raging", but in reading it more carefully you didn't.  So, I'm glad to see that.  The lay on of hands confused me a little bit though, I think the phrasing could be tightened up to be more clear on the goal here.  It appears that the goal is 

"at the beginning of your turn, if you are not a maximum hit points, you automatically use your lay on hands on yourself without using an action, restoring as many missing hitpoints as available from lay on of hands."
i.e. you automatically heal to max with whatever Lay on of Hands points available at the start of each turn.  I'm not sure I really like this, it takes away some of the agency for the PC in choosing when they will be using their abilities.

Aura of Rage - Does the Paladin also get +2 to damage?  I would think they should, but I would spell it out specifically.

Otherwise seems good to me.  The only possible issues that I could see is that everything is based off of the Aura of Rage.  You don't get any unique abilities when not raging, which makes the spellcasting in combat kind of moot overall.

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## bandti

Thank you for the feedback!

*Spoiler: Feedback Resoponse*
Show




> The Contractor - This needs something in there that allows you to recreate the device if it is lost/stolen/broken. Usually this is done over a short rest. The other thing I'm struggling with is that it appears you can do multiple summons at once. As in, at level 3 I can spend 2 spell slots to summon 2 sets of creatures at once. If that is the intent, I would look at removing it since it would be extremely powerful, if it isn't clarify it a little better.


There is only meant to be one group of creatures, thank you for pointing that out.



> Hellfire Proficiency - I would have to see how this played out, but giving a +4 to attack rolls seems like it might break bounded accuracy. Also, does this apply to melee attacks, ranged, attack, spell attacks, or all of the above?


This was meant to be a way to buff the accuracy of creatures with lower attack bonuses. I might just replace that with spell attack bonus IN PLACE of their regular one, if lower.



> Fiends Arsenal - Does this count as one of your infusions used or is it an extra one?


It is an extra one, I will clarify.




> Highway to Hell - immediately after you sacrifice the demons to summons a higher level one, can you summon more through the contract feature?


This is probably a part of clarifying the contractor feature, but I'd say you can't summon more fiends until all the fiends in the previous set are destroyed.



As a fun aside, fiend in google docs on my computer keeps on trying to autocorrect to friend...

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## Ilerien

*Spoiler: Arcane Tradition: Ultimate Magic*
Show




> Unbound Arcana - I'm not really a huge fan of expanding the wizard spell list even larger than it already is, but in looking it seemed like there were only about 8 spells that the sorcerer has that the wizard doesn't.  So, that shouldn't make a huge difference.  Water walk is the only one I would worry about since it's a ritual and I'm really don't think Wizards need more rituals.


Giving access to any other class list would be broken indeed. Water Walk is a niche enough spell, I wouldn't worry too much about wizard being able to cast it ritually. 



> Spellcasting Versatility - I appreciate that this comes later than the sorcerer and gives less options.  Is there a max amount of points you can have?


Good point, should probably introduce a limit equal to wizard level.



> Speedy Recovery - Was charisma modifier on purpose?  I think it is, but just making sure.


Yes. I want to reward investing in charisma because it's in line with the fluff (and this wizard can get Cha skills through Unbound Arcana and/or background), but I don't want to make it mandatory and to introduce too much MADness as a result. A nice little bonus, level 10 wizard with 20 Charisma gets 10 sorcery points that equal the same 5 1st level slots as they would with normal Arcane Recovery, level 19 wizard with 20 Charisma gets 15 sorcery points that's in line with 2 5th level spell slots. And if you don't want to invest in Charisma, it's still a good action to use in combat when you don't have time to juggle spell slots and sorcery points around, even if returns are somewhat worse than from normal Arcane Recovery.



> Spell Mastery - This one worries me from a power level perspective.  Getting 2 more spells to cast at will at level 1 is pretty powerful.  Now you can have Silvery Barbs, Shield, and something else.  Empowering Magic Missile would be pretty awesome.  Infinite subtle charm is pretty broken in certain campaigns as well.  I honestly am not sure what the solution would be here, maybe only give 1 bonus spell instead of 2?


A good point! I should probably leave 1 1st-level spell at level 14 and shouldn't mess with 18th level feature.



> You did a really good job borrowing metamagic without taking the Sorcerer's main schtick.  I appreciate that.


Thank you very much for the review!  :Small Smile:  Sincerely appreciated.

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## nickl_2000

> Thank you for the feedback!
> 
> *Spoiler: Feedback Resoponse*
> Show
> 
> 
> There is only meant to be one group of creatures, thank you for pointing that out.
> 
> This was meant to be a way to buff the accuracy of creatures with lower attack bonuses. I might just replace that with spell attack bonus IN PLACE of their regular one, if lower.
> ...


Replacing it with the spell attack is a great idea.  We already have precedence of using that for summoned creatures, so why not re-use it!




> *Spoiler: Arcane Tradition: Ultimate Magic*
> Show
> 
> Giving access to any other class list would be broken indeed. Water Walk is a niche enough spell, I wouldn't worry too much about wizard being able to cast it ritually. 
> Good point, should probably introduce a limit equal to wizard level.
> Yes. I want to reward investing in charisma because it's in line with the fluff (and this wizard can get Cha skills through Unbound Arcana and/or background), but I don't want to make it mandatory and to introduce too much MADness as a result. A nice little bonus, level 10 wizard with 20 Charisma gets 10 sorcery points that equal the same 5 1st level slots as they would with normal Arcane Recovery, level 19 wizard with 20 Charisma gets 15 sorcery points that's in line with 2 5th level spell slots. And if you don't want to invest in Charisma, it's still a good action to use in combat when you don't have time to juggle spell slots and sorcery points around, even if returns are somewhat worse than from normal Arcane Recovery.
> A good point! I should probably leave 1 1st-level spell at level 14 and shouldn't mess with 18th level feature.
> Thank you very much for the review!  Sincerely appreciated.



It's funny that you say water walk is a niche spell, because in my current campaign we end up using it all the time.  I think we have used it as a ritual on the Tomelock at least 20 times.  That being said, we may have used a different solution it we didn't have a tomelock with the ritual.

For the Charisma, I was thinking it was specifically for that reason, but I wanted to make sure.  I completely agree with your reasoning and your argument for using it by the way.

I also like the 1 spell at level 14 and no level 2 spells.  That's still powerful, really, really awesome powerful, but just feels better to me the way it is.

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## Ilerien

> I also like the 1 spell at level 14 and no level 2 spells.  That's still powerful, really, really awesome powerful, but just feels better to me the way it is.


At 18th level, though, there's one 2nd level spell with metamagic slapped on for now.


> It's funny that you say water walk is a niche spell, because in my current campaign we end up using it all the time. I think we have used it as a ritual on the Tomelock at least 20 times. That being said, we may have used a different solution it we didn't have a tomelock with the ritual.


An ongoing campaign I play in saw the use of water walk 2 or 3 times, I think. So, on second thought, not exactly niche, but still not universally useful like some other prominent ritual spells available to wizards. :)

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## bandti

Added more changes to the Diabolist, to hopefully clarify and tweak some features.

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## Jervis

> A curious take on 3.5e Chameleon. My own one for the previous contest of the same theme was based on monk (as per 3.5e class lore, and monk chassis are kinda easy to build on), let's see what we can do with bard.
> *Spoiler: Minor Aptitude Focus*
> Show
> 
> 
> Pretty straightforward, one switchable bonus. Maybe drop that extra hour through? Adds to awkwardness: the party would have to do nothing for one more hour because the bard wants to meditate a bit.
> Brawling Mastery probably won't see much use barring niche case of having to compete in brawling match. Maybe allow them to use dexterity for unarmed strikes as well? Would be more in line with monk.
> Magic Versatility is good. A bard can benefit a lot from switchable cantrip from any class list. Although I'm curious: can this bard take agonizing blast with Eldritch Adept if they happen to have eldritch blast during level up? Using any focus might come in handy as well.
> Martial Training is kind of an option that enforces itself if your bard chooses it. You either take it and use it for extended periods of time coz switching between light and medium armor and using or not using a shield depending on your decision at the start of any adventuring day is awkward. But, well, if you suddenly find a vorpal greataxe, and your fighter somehow doesn't want it...
> ...


Thanks. I need to leave notes about qualifying for things in general to avoid stuff like taking heavily armored or getting expertise feats based on aptitude focus. I'll also reword backpedal to work with dispel checks.

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## animorte

Ill try to get in my thoughts on those that were  posted recently in the next couple of days. Would you folks mind having a look at mine, newer opinions perhaps?

Weve got a really good population on this one, not sure compared to the previous ones as this is my first contest, but still wonderful! I love the variety.

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## bandti

> Ill try to get in my thoughts on those that were  posted recently in the next couple of days. Would you folks mind having a look at mine, newer opinions perhaps?
> 
> Weve got a really good population on this one, not sure compared to the previous ones as this is my first contest, but still wonderful! I love the variety.


The Hourglass Rogue reminds me of the Phantom Rogue a little bit. Have you considered a more frequent replenishment mechanic, like Tokens of the Departed? Obviously, it'd be a less frequent thing due to the relative power of the dice, but still could be worth looking into? Something like, when you roll a 20 on a saving throw.

----------


## animorte

> The Hourglass Rogue reminds me of the Phantom Rogue a little bit. Have you considered a more frequent replenishment mechanic, like Tokens of the Departed? Obviously, it'd be a less frequent thing due to the relative power of the dice, but still could be worth looking into? Something like, when you roll a 20 on a saving throw.


Yes, I was looking at the Phantom Rogue and Bardic Inspiration as a sort of foundation for Perceptive Imposition.

Maybe (if not too strong) I could include something like the following: _In addition, at 17th level, your experience with combat immediately grants you the power to alter the near future. When you roll initiative and there are no Hourglass dice left, you regain one use._

I wouldn't really know where else to put it, but most classes with that similar feature seem to get it at 20...

Or you've got me thinking something along the lines of: _When you land a Sneak Attack on a creature, if that creature drops to 0 hit points, you gain one Hourglass die._

--------------------

Also, I was initially struggling with creating a different capstone (started out as weak-sauce _time stop._ I changed it to _foresight_ which is awesome, but... maybe too awesome?). The theme is there, but I was considering something instead like: _At 17th level, you can warp through space and time. When you land a Sneak Attack, you can teleport any direction to an unoccupied space within 30 feet._

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## nickl_2000

> Ill try to get in my thoughts on those that were  posted recently in the next couple of days. Would you folks mind having a look at mine, newer opinions perhaps?
> 
> Weve got a really good population on this one, not sure compared to the previous ones as this is my first contest, but still wonderful! I love the variety.


This one is significantly larger than the past few  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Itsfrank

I'm not sure how to link the post but my Barbarian: Path of the Blessed is posted in the contest!

----------


## bandti

> I'm not sure how to link the post but my Barbarian: Path of the Blessed is posted in the contest!


It looks pretty nice, but I'm struggling to see why I would pick this over the standard Zealot Barbarian mechanically. I'd make the core smite ability a bit more tied to the Barbarian's rage, as that fits in with the official subclass a bit more. Perhaps a certain number of uses each rage? Or maybe your rage ends as soon as you smite? 

Also, I wouldn't grant the 30 foot range for Safeguard, as Paladin's don't get it until 18th level.

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## nickl_2000

> I'm not sure how to link the post but my Barbarian: Path of the Blessed is posted in the contest!


Please excuse the horrible drawing of an arrow, I'm doing it on a touchpad.  In your post look for the #10 in the top right side, that is the direct link to that particular post.  Just right click on it and "Copy Link Address."
*Spoiler: Image of where to find the link*
Show






Let's take a look at that Barbarian :)

*Spoiler: Barbarian: Path of the Blessed*
Show



*Wrath of the Gods* - This seems fine to me.  The damage is fairly high at a lower level, but it's balanced by significantly reducing the uses.

*Vigor* - This one becomes problematic at level 20 when you have unlimited rages.  You literally can heal your party infinitely.  Typically in cases where you are giving HP when you do X it gives temporary hit points.  I would consider this to use THP instead of regaining HP to avoid the abuse at level 20.  Otherwise I think it is fine, the distance makes sense.

*Goading Smite* - So you mention a Wisdom saving throw.  I don't see anything in the subclass that defines the DC of saving throws.  I believe the standard for barbarian subclasses is DC equal to 8 + your Constitution modifier + your proficiency bonus, but that is always defined in the subclass, so you should do it here as well.

*Safeguard* - You don't need to mention the conscious part since it only works while you are raging.  Rage ends if you are knocked unconscious.  I would also consider specifically mentioning in here that it doesn't stack with the Paladin's aura (just because that would likely break bounded accuracy to have both of them going at once.  I like that this is the capstone as it's a pretty decent one and it requires that someone put a lot of levels into barbarian to get there.  I may reduce the area to be smaller like it was mentioned above (20 ft or 15 feet).

A few things overall.  I would add another non-combat ability at level 3.  Personally I think it would be something that allows the barbarian to become more of a face (since Paladin's are known for having good charisma and are often the communicaters of the party).  However, feel free to make it something else that is interesting to you (just because you are borrowing from Paladin doesn't mean that everything has to be based on the Paladin class).

Also as you edit the subclass and work on it more, it would be nice to add a little bit more fluff.  By this I mean that you do a good job of describing what the subclass can do in it's abilities, but you don't mention the way.  What is it about this barbarian that allows it to smite?

An example could be
Vigor
You gain the ability to harness you anger to bolster your allies around you.  At 6th level when you enter a rage, you and every allied creature within 15 feet gains temporary hit points equal to your Barbarian level.

It doesn't have to be anything to fancy all the time, but it adds a little bit more flavor to the text and gives RP ideas to the person who is reading it.  Hopefully this makes sense because I haven't gotten that much coffee in me yet this morning.


I don't mean to sound overly critical, hopefully it isn't coming off this way.  I like the subclass, it does a good job of getting elements of the Paladin into the barbarian while still following the standard of the barbarian.  Add some fluff in and touch up a few of the things mentioned above and I think you will have a solid first entry.

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## Psyche

I feel very outmatched.
You all did amazing!
What do you think of mine?
Note: I did not know barbarian was so popular, and I didn't know about the path of the rage master monk before I began, sorry nickl_2000
P.S. How do you change your avatar?

----------


## animorte

On this note, there is a listing for all Classes represented throughout the life of these contests. This is strictly considering the base class used, I think.




> *Spoiler: Class Representation*
> Show
> 
> 
> Rankings are based on number of submissions first, then number of contests.
> Up to date as of Contest XXVIII
> Class
> Total Number of Submissions
> Number of Contests
> ...

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## Psyche

What does the contests collum (sorry for the misspell) represent?

----------


## animorte

> What does the contests collum (sorry for the misspell) represent?


It represents how many contests a class has appeared in (say three Monks entered in one it would only count as one in that list).

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## nickl_2000

> I feel very outmatched.
> You all did amazing!
> What do you think of mine?
> Note: I did not know barbarian was so popular, and I didn't know about the path of the rage master monk before I began, sorry nickl_2000
> P.S. How do you change your avatar?


No reason to apologize.  You have a completely different take on the Monk, what is it borrowing and how it works.  This happens all the time and is perfectly fine.  Frankly if you look, we have 3 different takes on borrowing the rage mechanic, but all of them are different in flavor and function.

If you look above you posting I have an evaluation in the spoiler.

As for the avatar - Setting in the top right of the screen -> General Settings ->Scroll down to the bottom, you can choose an OOtS avatar or can put in an appropriate and legal link to another image there.





> What does the contests collum (sorry for the misspell) represent?


EDIT: ninjaed  :Small Big Grin: 

Total Number of Submissions - Total times someone has submitted a subclass for that class
Number of Contests - Times at least 1 subclass of that class has appeared in a contact.  i.e. at least one Barbarian subclass has appeared in 21 different contests.

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## Psyche

Thank you! What do you think of the oozes, I didn't see your review srry if Im missing something.

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## nickl_2000

> Thank you! What do you think of the oozes, I didn't see your review srry if Im missing something.


Sorry confused reviews.  There are lots and lots of new entries this time around and I love it!  I will try and get the review done in a few hours or tomorrow morning.

----------


## animorte

> Sorry confused reviews.  There are lots and lots of new entries this time around and I love it!  I will try and get the review done in a few hours or tomorrow morning.


I'm going to try to in the next few days as well, though I'm not nearly as good at it as you and others that have been here a while.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Psyche

I would hate to be presumptuous, but I'm going to review these subclasses. D to S on how powerful and D to S on flavor

----------


## Psyche

Psi-Fury barbarian
Power: A
Flavor: C
The Idea of a psionic Barbarian is amazing, I just wish the execution was better. Sure it's powerful, and the level 14 ability is broken, but what if instead you gave them some mind force ability that wasn't a charge but a burst of rage around them. Give them an avatar of force that surrounds them. Give them blasts of energy emanating from their mind. It seems to focused on the physical, and not the mental. A way to make them B tier flavor (at least) in my book would be to let them fly during unstoppable force. Is it powerful? Sure. Could you make a great character around this? Sure. Would I feel this is cooler if it did more than boost your physical attributes? Definitely.

----------


## Psyche

I'm gonna skip weaponsmith because I can't wrap my head around it, It seems cool but not very strong. Until you're dual wielding d12 weapons

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## nickl_2000

*Spoiler: Monk, Way of the Ooze*
Show



This is the traditional way of saying a monk subclass.  Not that big of a deal, but using the standard style will make it more professional looking and feeling.

*Oozes Defence* - typo on defense :)  This kind of thing is a personal pet peeve as a player.  To get through levels 1 and 2 you really need Wisdom, but not that you get this ability at level 3 Wisdom isn't needed anymore.  That being said, there is nothing straight out wrong with it.  You are basing everything off of constitution instead of wisdom and I would consider Wisdom and Constitution equally important in stat distribution.  The Blindsight aspect of it is interesting in that it grows and actually is very cool due to the reason.

*Hungered Trance* - Is there an action cost on this?  The damage is pretty high, especially at low levels.  Assuming you are using a spear or quarterstaff you are dealing an extra 2d4 (5) damage per turn.  With flurry you deal and extra 3d4 (7.5) damage per turn.  Then it grows even higher as the PC gets higher levels.  There are a few ways to balance this
1) make it require an action to use, then you end up losing out on 1 round of damage
2) make it always have a Ki cost and potentially have a Ki cost of 3 ki.
3) reduce the extra damage dealt to a flat +1 or +2 damage.

Any of these will work, just ask yourself what you think would be best.  I 

*Absorbing dodge* - What kind of attack does this interact with?  Because you already have deflect missiles for ranged weapon attacks, although this it could be better to use this rather than deflecting missiles in certain situations.

*Hungering Taste* - This could be a gigantic pain from a bookkeeping aspect.  You literally need to know every single creature you are fighting and it you have hurt them before.  A melee reach of 25 is also pretty ridiculous, especially since hitting at range is one of the weaknesses of a monk in general.  If you want to add that mechanic (and I am not entirely sure you need to), I would massively reduce the max range to be 10 feet at any particular time.

In general, rather than dealing 3dx damage with each attack at this point, I would look at a different ability is similar to oozes and borrow that instead at this level.  Maybe the ability to squeeze through small spaces, maybe the ability to deal acid damage when grappling, maybe something else.

*Engulf* - In my minds eye, I cannot figure out how you could engulf something 15 feet away from you.  For oozes it only works when they enter your space (or the other way around).

I would love to see the divide put into this somehow, although I will be perfectly honest I have absolutely no idea how to do it in a balanced way.

So, overall I find this interesting and kind of gross, which is cool!  I think you need to look into doing some more unique things rather than just adding more damage.  Even adding a little bit of damage to a damage roll on a monk has a pretty big impact when they are attacking 3 times a turn pretty much every single turn starting at level 5.  Maybe acid splashes, maybe dividing, maybe the amorphous feature, maybe immune to charm while "raging" etc.

----------


## Psyche

oh whoops reach and damage boost is supposed to be only unarmed strikes.
Also the way I envision it is like a pudding, stretching out to it's full length and then shaping back.

----------


## Psyche

[SPOILER=Ooze monk] Monk of Oozes:
Have you ever wandered the darkest of places, blind, but seeing everything? Have you wished you could devour everything in sight on a rampage of faceless fury? Did you use to raise gelatinous cubes, offering prayers to Jubilex, the faceless lord? Whatever the reason, you are empowered by the might of oozes.

Oozes Defence: Beginning at level 3, you may use constitution, instead of wisdom, for calculating your passive perception, Ki save DC, and unarmoured defence feature. In addition, you have blindsight out to a range in feet equal to your level times your constitution.

Hungered Trance: Starting at third level, you may enter a trance of hungered frenzy as a bonus action that lasts for 1 minute, while this is active, you gain the following benefits: Your unarmoured strikes deal acid damage; You may use your constitution score, instead of dexterity or strength, for the attack and damage rolls; Whenever you roll damage for an unarmed strike, you may roll a martial arts die and add it to the damage you deal; you have resistance to slashing damage; and your reach with unarmed strikes increases to 10 feet. After you use this feature, you must finish a long rest before you do it again, unless you spend 2 ki points to do so again.

Absorbing dodge: Starting at 6th level, you may absorb an attack as a reaction, halving the damage you take. When you use this feature, you may spend 1 ki point to deal acid damage to the attacker equal to a roll of your martial arts die if they are within 10 feet of you. You may use this second ability for free once per trance. You may move through spaces as small as 1 inch without squeezing. While hungered trance is active, you can use an action to escape a grapple.

Split attacks: You gain immunity to acid damage. Your reach during hungered trance is increased to 15 feet. When you take the attack action on your turn and attack two separate creatures, you may increase your reach to 30 feet until the end of this turn, until the end of this turn, your speed is halved as your split selves must each attack and reform.

Engulf: Starting at 17th level, you may spend 5 ki points to engulf a creature within 15 feet of you for 1 minute. While engulfed, that creature is restrained, and you become incapacitated. On the start of the engulfed creature's turn, it takes 4d10 acid damage. The engulfed creature may use an action to attempt to escape, engaging in a strength check contested by your constitution check. If the creature wins, it is no longer engulfed and can move 20 feet away from you. If you win, the creature takes 2d10 acid damage and remains engulfed. Your reach during hungered rage increased to 20 feet.

----------


## Psyche

I've changed it a bit.

----------


## Psyche

What do you think? I would love feedback!

----------


## RickAsWritten

> Psi-Fury barbarian
> Power: A
> Flavor: C
> The Idea of a psionic Barbarian is amazing, I just wish the execution was better. Sure it's powerful, and the level 14 ability is broken, but what if instead you gave them some mind force ability that wasn't a charge but a burst of rage around them. Give them an avatar of force that surrounds them. Give them blasts of energy emanating from their mind. It seems to focused on the physical, and not the mental. A way to make them B tier flavor (at least) in my book would be to let them fly during unstoppable force. Is it powerful? Sure. Could you make a great character around this? Sure. Would I feel this is cooler if it did more than boost your physical attributes? Definitely.


Thanks for the review.  Your suggestions helped me finally crack the issue with the Shared Fury ability that multiple people had noted didn't make sense with the theme.  Now it allows you to share "a burst of rage" with your teammates by giving them bonuses to STR checks and saves, and later grants some minor damage reduction.

I somewhat disagree that the subclass only boosts physical attributes.  A breakdown of its abilities is as follows:

3rd - damage, battlefield control, battlefield control, support6th - battlefield control, battlefield control10th - support14th - DAMAGE, battlefield control, support

It's mostly a control subclass that has several tools to use outside of Rage; rarities for Barbarians.  Flight is a cool suggestion though.  That could probably be squeezed into the 14th level feature somewhere.

----------


## Itsfrank

> Let's take a look at that Barbarian :)
> 
> *Spoiler: Barbarian: Path of the Blessed*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Wrath of the Gods* - This seems fine to me.  The damage is fairly high at a lower level, but it's balanced by significantly reducing the uses.
> 
> ...


No worry. I really appreciate it. This helps a ton. I'm here to learn after all! And I made some changes to the balance and the fluff! https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...8&postcount=10

----------


## Psyche

College of the chameleon:
Flavor: S
Power: A
I love it! the only bad thing here is divine strike not affecting spells.
Top - notch versatility, amazing flexibility, and specialization all rolled into 1. Not as strong as it could be but that is a good thing. Very good.

----------


## Psyche

Rouge of the hourglass:
Flavor: S
Power: A 
Clarity: C
If only I could figure out what the difference between an hourglass trinket and an hourglass die is. I love it though!
Again, it could be stronger but that's what makes it amazing.

----------


## animorte

> Rouge of the hourglass:
> Flavor: S
> Power: A 
> Clarity: C
> If only I could figure out what the difference between an hourglass trinket and an hourglass die is. I love it though!
> Again, it could be stronger but that's what makes it amazing.


They are basically one in the same. Each Hourglass Trinket is represented by a d6. _I think_ I fixed the clarity on that by referring to it in every instance with "Hourglass Trinket and rephrasing in some areas.
I appreciate you taking a look at it and giving a fair rating!

----------


## Old Harry MTX

I made a small fix to the Hermit, specifying in the Trance text that this feature can only be used during battle (like the Barbarian's Rage). This way at the end of a fight you can't cast a cantrip with concentration for the sole purpose of keeping the Trance state active.

I also took a look at the other entries. I state that I have not run any math, and I apologize in advance if I often reply to some features simply by saying "I would have done that this way..." or with "wow, that's too strong!". I wrote everything straight away, and I found all the entries very interesting.

*Spoiler: Barbarian: Path of the Psi-Fury*
Show

Barbarian: Path of the Psi-Fury

I'm not very familiar with psionic classes for comparison.

*Psionic Power* Seems cool.

*Furies of the Mind* I really like both options.

*Guarding Fury* It feels really strong to me, especially the part where it extends the effect to other creatures.

*Psychic Juggernaut* These options also seem very strong to me. Maybe you could choose one at the end of a short or long rest?


*Spoiler: Martial Archetype: The Weaponsmith*
Show

Martial Archetype: The Weaponsmith

At first glance I like it very much, even if it gives me the feeling of being inspired by the flavor of the Artificer rather than actually borrowing its mechanics.

*Martial Innovator* The core feature, overall i like it.

*Improvised Innovation* Add nice flavor without breaking anything.

*Iron Monger* I don't like the part of you producing and selling weapons because in my opinion it isn't managed well in D&D, the rest is a nice standard improvement.

*Arcane Infusions* Very good.

*Revolutionary Armaments* Cool, but in my opinion it comes a little too late. I'm not a huge fan of mechanics or such extensive option sets being introduced at such high levels. I would like to see it combined with Martial Innovator or at the most in place of Iron Monger, with the necessary power corrections.


*Spoiler: Bard: College of The Chameleon*
Show

Bard: College of The Chameleon

Okay, so instead of borrowing from a class, this subclass can borrow from whoever they want. It goes well with the Bard class, which is a true factotum.

*Minor Aptitude Focus* Makes perfectly sense with the concept

*Major Aptitude Focus* It seems to me that doing so is eclipsing the Valor Bard, and probably other subclasses as well.

*Multifocus* Wow, this is too strong!


*Spoiler: Roguish Archetype: Hourglass*
Show

Roguish Archetype: Hourglass

My limit, but I admit I don't understand which class it borrows from. ^^

*Vigilant Acuity* Nice

*Perceptive Imposition* Your hourglass trinkets are actually dice? It says that it starts as one d6, but then you say that you have a pool of d6s equal to your proficiency bonus. Ok, this part seems to have been fixed! well!

I like the concept, but it seems very strong. A lot of options, converting a disadvantage into an advantage seems very weird to me, giving it to another creature with a reaction makes it way stronger than bardic inspiration.

I dont think that the fact you recover the dice only at the end of a long rest is enough to balance this feature.

*Chronal Aptitude* A standard upgrade, the spell list is nice and themed.

*Recalibration* This one is strong but i like it flavor wise.

*Temporal Observance* Nice.


*Spoiler: Druid Archetype: Circle of Fury*
Show

Druid Archetype: Circle of Fury

I like the feeling of an animalist zealot, even eco-terrorist.

*Nature's Armory* I like Shillelagh and its mechanic, so I like a feature that expands it.

*Primal Fury* I don't understand if this thing can be done every time you spend a use of wildshape (e.g. turning into a beast) or if the correct wording should be: As a bonus action, you can spend a use of wildshape to enter a primal fury.
Giving advantage on DEX or CON saving throws and ability checks is strong, since they are both among the most common saving throws. Also, I feel that a druid is probably more WIS centered.

Are there no conditions that stop primal fury before 1 minute?

*Blade of Grass, Shooting Stars* Why not a standard Extra Attack? How does it behave in case of multiclassing with the other 5th level Extra Attacks?

*Nature's Wrath* I haven't run the math so I dont know if it is balanced, i think yes. I would move the fact that attacks count as magical at 6th level. Replacing critical hits with an AOE is very cool, I like it!

*Nature's Mercy* Very cool flavorwise, but it needs a limited number of uses.


*Spoiler: Monk: Way of the Rage Master*
Show

Monk: Way of the Rage Master

Instead of Way of the rage master I would prefer something like Way of the Raging Boar or something like that, just to give the feeling of a martial art, but it is a subjective opinion, a trifle.

*Embracing the Anger* The idea to tie it to ki points is nice, but doing so you can rage only once at the beginning, but gradually you learn to do that more times than a barbarian. Maybe it could be reconsidered somehow.
Why increase the damage die size instead of adding a bonus like the normal rage?
Again, the HP increase is nice, but still I don't know if a classic resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing should be better.

*Taunt* With a name like that, I would have expected something that would disadvantage hit rolls against others except you.^^
The frightened condition is strong, maybe I would increase the ki point cost to 2.

*Iron Muscles* Very nice, maybe i would move the ki cost to the main effect, but it is probably an unnecessary nerf.

*Embodiment of Anger* A standard borrowed feature. Maybe the only problem is that no other feature before this one has ever referred to Wisdom or Constitution. The Ki save DC actually uses Wisdom, but still tying Wisdom with rage seems a bitodd. ^^


*Spoiler: Arcane Tradition: Ultimate Magic*
Show

Arcane Tradition: Ultimate Magic

*Unbound Arcana* Wizard and Sorcerer spell lists are very similar, so it should be ok.

*Savant of Chaos* This means all the sorcerer spells or only the one that appears on the sorcerer spell list but not in the wizard one?

*Spellcasting Versatility* Wizards already have Arcane Recovery, maybe i would remove the Creating spell slots part, keeping only Converting a Spell Slot to Sorcery Points.

*Metamagic* Nice and mandatory.

*Speedy Recovery* Nice, I would probably reformulate it into something like As an action, you can spend your use of Arcane recovery to gain a number of sorcery points equal to, but it is only a form defect.

*Spell Mastery* I understand what you tried to do here. You wanted to apply metamagic options for free to spell mastery and signature spells, but they come out too late for this feature.
Maybe the result is a bit overcomplicated, I would probably just let you choose one or two metamagic options you know and reduce their cost by 1 point, this way you also avoid the problem that they have different costs in sorcery points, so it wouldn't make sense to pick one that costs only one point and make it free.


*Spoiler: Barbarian: Path of the Blessed*
Show

Barbarian: Path of the Blessed

*Wrath of the Gods* The damage increase seems a bit high, but I havent run the math. Maybe you can reduce it to 1d8 but converting the normal damage bonus of rage in radiant damage too?

*Vigor* Wow! This is strong! Its better than a fighter second wind. Are you sure you dont want to reduce the range to 10 feet (at least up to 18th level), and reduce the healing to HALF your barbarian level?

*Goading Smite* Again, this seems to me a bit strong, especially compared to compelled duel or to goading attack. I would probably change it in something like As a bonus action you can spend one use of your Wrath of the Gods feature to cast compelled duel or shield spell.
The totemic barbarian can actually take a similar feature at 14th, choosing the bear aspect, but still its four levels later, so I dont know

*Safeguard* This one is basically an Aura of Protection. It makes sense and is a nice capstone, but is probably a bit too strong if considered together with the rest of the features.


*Spoiler: Artificer: Diabolist*
Show

Artificer: Diabolist

The subclass is nice but it seems that you have borrowed only the flavor from a warlock.

*Devils Advocate* Nice.

*Diabolist Spells* Seems good.

*The Contractor* Why can you summon a number of fiends up to CR 1 AND up to your proficiency bonus? Overall, it seems nice.

*Hellfire Proficiency* Seems good.

*Fiends Arsenal* Cool.

*Highway to Hell* I need to run some math but it seems nice.


*Spoiler: Paladin: Oath of Anarchy*
Show

Paladin: Oath of Anarchy

*Tenets* Very nice.

*Oath Spells* Standard.

*Channel Divinity* The healing part didnt convince me completely, I would reformulate it in something like Whenever you take damage, you can tap into your lay on hands pool and prevent up to half of the damage taken.

*Savage Sundering* Nice.

*Aura of Rage* Seems nice. Strong, but nice.

*Undying Fury* Nice.

*Unstoppable Fury* I know that its a level 20th feature, but isn't it a bit too much?


*Spoiler: Monk of Oozes*
Show

Monk of Oozes

So you borrowed the rage mechanic from the barbarian and little else, and then developed it in another direction from both the flavor and the mechanics point of view. A little off topic, but it should still be fine.

*Oozes Defense* I like the Constitution swaps, but blindsight is a very strong ability, maybe scaling it to half your level should be better.

*Hungered Trance* The name didn't convince me, why a hungered trance for a feature that basically Oozes you?
Acid damage seems cool, I don't know if applying it only to the damage bonus could be better.
The constitution part is weird but probably fine.
So you basically make a critical hit each time you make an unarmed strike? Seems a bit too much.
Resistance to slashing damage feets the theme.
The reach increase is something more that in my opinion has no place with everything else, you should take something away.
No conditions that stops the hungered trance?

*Absorbing dodge* Again, it seems to me that this feature gives a little too many things, I would remove some of them.

*Split attacks* It still seems like too many options to me. At this point I would prefer something like the Barbarian: Path of the Totem Warrior, that lets you choose one option  when you reach the level.

*Engulf* This one seems nice.

----------


## Psyche

The druid: Circle of Fury:
Flavor: A
Clarity: C
Power: B
It's nice I guess...
i like everything except the level 14 ability, it's SO unclear as to what it does.

----------


## Ilerien

> *Spoiler: Arcane Tradition: Ultimate Magic*
> Show
> 
> Arcane Tradition: Ultimate Magic
> 
> *Unbound Arcana* Wizard and Sorcerer spell lists are very similar, so it should be ok.
> 
> *Savant of Chaos* This means all the sorcerer spells or only the one that appears on the sorcerer spell list but not in the wizard one?
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the review! :)
*Savant of Chaos* applies to any spell that appears on sorcerer's spell list, so yeah, about 2/3 of wizard spells fulfill the requirement.
*Spellcasting Versatility* as it is ensures the iconic ability of a sorcerer to bring a ton of higher level spell slots to the table by sacrificing all their lower level spell slots. My Divine Soul sorcerer from an ongoing campaign raised nine people from the dead once during a day of downtime at level 10, if memory serves. I feel like Arcane Recovery + only spell slots => sorcery points convertion lacks the versatility advertised.
The wording of *Speedy Recovery* is indeed clumsy, thanks. Good catch! :)
As for *Spell Mastery*, I thought of just providing a discount on selected metamagic option, but I like my current solution more because it's tied to wizard class features (even if we, as with Lore bard, give access to base class feature earlier) and doesn't result in shenanigans like making every spell subtle.

----------


## animorte

> *Spoiler: Roguish Archetype: Hourglass*
> Show
> 
> Roguish Archetype: Hourglass
> 
> My limit, but I admit I don't understand which class it borrows from. ^^
> 
> *Vigilant Acuity* Nice
> 
> ...


First, I want to say you really put in the time and effort to look over everybodys entries. I greatly appreciate it.

It is direct inspiration from the Bard for a more supportive option for the Rogue. I liked the time theme and looked a great deal at Clockwork Sorcerer and Chronurgist Wizard. _Also a little bit of Ekko, League of Legends._

I went over my wording for Perceptive Imposition for like the 12th time, haha. Its had several clarity issues. 

I also nerfed it a bit. The starting dice is d4 and levels up at a similar rate. It is also restricted to being used only by the Rogue itself, but still can assist others. Now it pulls straight from the action economy, instead of basically a free use for anybody at any time.

----------


## bandti

Thanks for the review, MTX!


*Spoiler: Feedback Responses*
Show





> The subclass is nice but it seems that you have borrowed only the flavor from a warlock.


That's a pretty good point, and I was actually working on some custom infusions to remedy that. I will say that the the subclass as a whole was kind of based on a Pact of the Chain Warlock at the beginning, before evolving to what it is now.




> Why can you summon a number of fiends up to CR 1 AND up to your proficiency bonus? Overall, it seems nice.


The limit is there mainly for later levels, where, if you remove the prof bonus limitation, you could potentially summon 20 CR 1/4 creatures at 17th level, which would severely break action economy. Its honestly just a personal balancing preference, but you could remove it if you really wanted to.

----------


## bandti

Added custom artificer Infusions to hopefully reinforce that warlock flavor! Feedback is welcome.

----------


## nickl_2000

Thank you!  Responded inside in italics 







> *Spoiler: Monk: Way of the Rage Master*
> Show
> 
> Monk: Way of the Rage Master
> 
> Instead of Way of the rage master I would prefer something like Way of the Raging Boar or something like that, just to give the feeling of a martial art, but it is a subjective opinion, a trifle.
> 
> _Good call, it does sounds better using something like that_
> 
> ...





Also, I think it is awesome seeing so many new faces and how many reviews we have seen so far.  Keep it up!  1 more week until voting  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Itsfrank

> *Spoiler: Barbarian: Path of the Blessed*
> Show
> 
> Barbarian: Path of the Blessed
> 
> *Wrath of the Gods* The damage increase seems a bit high, but I havent run the math. Maybe you can reduce it to 1d8 but converting the normal damage bonus of rage in radiant damage too?
> 
> *Vigor* Wow! This is strong! Its better than a fighter second wind. Are you sure you dont want to reduce the range to 10 feet (at least up to 18th level), and reduce the healing to HALF your barbarian level?
> 
> ...


Thank you for the help! I put my response in the italics.

----------


## animorte

I would like to apologize for those entries I have not been able to address and critique due to time constraints and the like.

Ive thoroughly enjoyed viewing everyones different concepts though!

----------


## Jervis

> College of the chameleon:
> Flavor: S
> Power: A
> I love it! the only bad thing here is divine strike not affecting spells.
> Top - notch versatility, amazing flexibility, and specialization all rolled into 1. Not as strong as it could be but that is a good thing. Very good.


Sorry it took me a while to see that. Thanks!

----------


## nickl_2000

Tomorrow's the last day, voting begins in Monday when I wake up

----------


## nickl_2000

Bravo and congratulations to everyone who entered the contest.  The voting thread is available, please jump in and vote!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...4#post25543174

The voting thread will stay open until the end of the day on August 22nd.

You don't need to have entered into the contest to vote, so go ahead anyone!



Also, let me know if I missed anyone or screwed anything up.  First time posting this!

----------


## nickl_2000

> You have listed My Way is Different twice in the table, each with a different description. Need to roll a new one?
> 
> Otherwise, looks great! And thank you again for taking on this responsibility.
> 
> _*will edit this to add my votes later_


Thanks, got it!

----------


## Jervis

> Thanks, got it!


The link for way of Anarchy links to something else I think. Not a big issue just something I noticed.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> The link for way of Anarchy links to something else I think. Not a big issue just something I noticed.


All the links appear to go to the Path of the Psi Fury.

----------


## nickl_2000

> The link for way of Anarchy links to something else I think. Not a big issue just something I noticed.





> All the links appear to go to the Path of the Psi Fury.


Dang it, I suck at this.  Let me get it fixed

----------


## Jervis

> Dang it, I suck at this.  Let me get it fixed


Its ok my dude. Easy mistake to make.

----------


## nickl_2000

> Its ok my dude. Easy mistake to make.


I think it got it this time

----------


## RickAsWritten

> All the links appear to go to the Path of the Psi Fury.


Mwahahaha, let the evil plan commence!  You can't vote for anyone else if I use my psionic rage powers to change all the links to only lead to the Psi Fury. Mwahahaha.

----------


## nickl_2000

> Mwahahaha, let the evil plan commence!  You can't vote for anyone else if I use my psionic rage powers to change all the links to only lead to the Psi Fury. Mwahahaha.


 :Nale: 




> Thankyou for the creation of the thread nickl_2000! I've opened the link of my "Hermit" but it seems to take to the Barbarian Psy Fury ^^
> 
> Anyway, in a few days I will be back home from vacation, then I will take another quick read to the entries and I will drop my votes!
> 
> EDIT: all the links seems to take me to the Barbarian Psy Fury, even if the address seems to be correct (the number at the end is different). I don't know why o_O


I tried to do it the easy way (and logical way for it to be designed in my IT related mind).  Use the link for the first post and just change the postcount= to the next number for the rest, thinking that it would refer to the overall thread in the URL and postcount would reference the specific post within a thread.  Turns out I was wrong and that isn't the way it works.

----------


## animorte

> Dang it, I suck at this.  Let me get it fixed


We're all here working together as a team. You're good!


Except for this one...



> Mwahahaha, let the evil plan commence!  You can't vote for anyone else if I use my psionic rage powers to change all the links to only lead to the Psi Fury. Mwahahaha.


Brilliant indeed.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> I tried to do it the easy way (and logical way for it to be designed in my IT related mind).  Use the link for the first post and just change the postcount= to the next number for the rest, thinking that it would refer to the overall thread in the URL and postcount would reference the specific post within a thread.  Turns out I was wrong and that isn't the way it works.


You never stop to learn... I would probably have done the same as you.

----------


## nickl_2000

The votes are in!

In 3rd place, with 8 points, we have The Hermit by Old Harry MTX .

In 2nd place,  with 12 points, we have the Barbarian: Path of the Psi-Fury by RickAsWritten

and *drum roll* in first place, with a whopping 23 points we have Martial Archetype: The Weaponsmith by Damon_Tor!


Congratulations to all the winners!  Our next contest will be food and foodies, which is the winner by having the most 1st place votes.  My Way is Different and Bigger is Better will move to the next contest due to being tied for second.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> (if I screwed up in counts let me know and I will adjust)


Hum, I'm not sure because I checked it from phone, but the Hermit seems to have two 2nd preferences (Damon Tor and Jervis) for a total of 8 points O_o

(don't get me wrong, honestly I don't care, I partecipate for the fun)

----------


## nickl_2000

> Hum, I'm not sure because I checked it from phone, but the Hermit seems to have two 2nd preferences (Damon Tor and Jervis) for a total of 8 points O_o
> 
> (don't get me wrong, honestly I don't care, I partecipate for the fun)


Yup, sorry about that.  Hopefully it will be the last of the missed votes.

----------


## Jervis

Not that it really matters much but Chameleon got two votes, one 1st vote and one 2nd. Not a big deal admittedly though. 

As for the next contest im feeling some blood hunter. Maybe a non edgy BH subclass based around cooking monsters.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> Not that it really matters much but Chameleon got two votes, one 1st vote and one 2nd. Not a big deal admittedly though. 
> 
> As for the next contest im feeling some blood hunter. Maybe a non edgy BH subclass based around cooking monsters.


OK, if you manage to successfully write a non-edgy blood hunter you'll have my vote.

----------


## animorte

I was keeping tally myself as each vote was cast on a sheet of paper and double checked it again at the end. I was proud to receive a few votes myself and also found a couple minor differences, none that really changes the outcome.

----------


## nickl_2000

> I was keeping tally myself as each vote was cast on a sheet of paper and double checked it again at the end. I was proud to receive a few votes myself and also found a couple minor differences, none that really changes the outcome.


Mind DMing me your results?

----------


## Jervis

Well this is my take on a not edgy Blood Hunter. You're a cook with a cute immortal truffle pig. Rate or Hate Mate? https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...86&postcount=3

----------


## Lvl45DM!

> Well this is my take on a not edgy Blood Hunter. You're a cook with a cute immortal truffle pig. Rate or Hate Mate? https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...86&postcount=3


Mechanically it seems fine, except Blood Hunters are already pretty Bonus Action reliant and you've got the pig only attacking on a BA. I wonder if making the pig attack as a reaction, or it can attack with you as part of your Attack action would make sense?

Thematically, I would say its over-reliant on the pig. I would change maybe the level 7 ability to be more about getting buffs from eating various monsters. Like if you serve a beast during your Exotic Cuisine you can give people advantage on Strength or Dex checks, if you serve an abberation they get proficiency on Wisdom saves etc.

And just as an idea, drawing from Norse myth, can you eat your companion on a long rest and gain some other ability? Loses you your main feature if you're attacked in the night but thats moderately rare.

----------


## Damon_Tor

Harvest Domain is in "alpha", ie feature complete. 

I liked the visual of the guy using a pitchfork as a melee weapon, but heavy armor seems really bourgeois for what should be a cleric for the working man. So despite "melee clerics" usually getting heavy armor proficiency, I opted to instead give them reach with their special farm-weapons and wisdom-based attack rolls with same. Puts them in a kind of in-between category of cleric.

I don't love the spell list. The first few levels feel pretty good but then levels 4 and 5 are really just pretty blah (Though I like _tree stride_ here: there's pleasing synergy with the channel divinity's ability to make fruit/nut trees grow quickly from seeds. I enjoy the idea that he could plant an apple tree every 500 feet and just tree stride back home at the end of the adventure) Anyway, I may wind up writing some new spells which would fit here.

I like the potential for synergy with their ability to add to existing sources of thp. For example, a Harvest Cleric could "feed" the temp HP of a Spores Druid to keep his special feature active for longer.

----------


## Lvl45DM!

> Harvest Domain is in "alpha", ie feature complete. 
> 
> I liked the visual of the guy using a pitchfork as a melee weapon, but heavy armor seems really bourgeois for what should be a cleric for the working man. So despite "melee clerics" usually getting heavy armor proficiency, I opted to instead give them reach with their special farm-weapons and wisdom-based attack rolls with same. Puts them in a kind of in-between category of cleric.
> 
> I don't love the spell list. The first few levels feel pretty good but then levels 4 and 5 are really just pretty blah (Though I like _tree stride_ here: there's pleasing synergy with the channel divinity's ability to make fruit/nut trees grow quickly from seeds. I enjoy the idea that he could plant an apple tree every 500 feet and just tree stride back home at the end of the adventure) Anyway, I may wind up writing some new spells which would fit here.
> 
> I like the potential for synergy with their ability to add to existing sources of thp. For example, a Harvest Cleric could "feed" the temp HP of a Spores Druid to keep his special feature active for longer.


May I suggest for spells, a little out of left field, Blight? You're Harvest after all, which leads to the death of plants as much as feeding humans?

And perhaps Awaken for 5th level. Imagine a farm with no workers, just animals and plants working to produce the harvest under the kindly gaze of the cleric.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> May I suggest for spells, a little out of left field, Blight? You're Harvest after all, which leads to the death of plants as much as feeding humans?
> 
> And perhaps Awaken for 5th level. Imagine a farm with no workers, just animals and plants working to produce the harvest under the kindly gaze of the cleric.


Hrm, I like _awaken_, you make a good case for it. _Blight_ doesn't make sense to me though.

EDIT: Awaken added, Wrath of Nature removed.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> Hrm, I like _awaken_, you make a good case for it. _Blight_ doesn't make sense to me though.
> 
> EDIT: Awaken added, Wrath of Nature removed.


mmm, you should probably design a new spell, something like a mass aoe herbicide?

----------


## Damon_Tor

> mmm, you should probably design a new spell, something like a mass aoe herbicide?


The thematics of a spell that harms "weeds" or "vermin" or other other unwanted creatures while bolstering desirable creatures would be great. 

One thing that feels important to emphasize is that agriculture _is not nature_, and a harvest god is a civilization god, creating order from chaos. Crops in neat rows, animals docile and obedient: organisms not useful to this system are changed to fit or eradicated. Spells that reflect this difference in core philosophy are great.

I'll work on it.

----------


## animorte

> One thing that feels important to emphasize is that agriculture _is not nature_, and a harvest god is a civilization god, creating order from chaos. Crops in neat rows, animals docile and obedient: organisms not useful to this system are changed to fit or eradicated. Spells that reflect this difference in core philosophy are great.


I would vote for adding this directly to the subclass description itself. Very well said and does a good job to cast aside ambivalence right from the start.

----------


## Damon_Tor

Added two new 4th level spells, Herbicide and Repel Vermin. 

Repel Vermin is based on a spell that appeared in earlier editions, modified to fit into 5e's casting system, given a much broader definition of "vermin" (it was a specific creature type in 3/3.5) and made to last much longer at higher levels.

Herbicide is a new spell that's an AoE poison spell made to kill plants of types that you specify, so you could use it to clear weeds from a farmer's field without hurting his crops. Think of it like an AoE Blight, but targeted at specific species of plant.

Notably, both are rituals, so a harvest cleric can pretty casually use them in their narrative applications.

----------


## nickl_2000

Threw in another Cleric domain, the cooking domain.  I tried to focus on the act of cooking and feeding rather than general food to differentiate from existing subclasses (I was going to do famine domain, but was definitely beaten to that concept pretty hard).  Take a look, let me know what you think!

----------


## Lvl45DM!

> Threw in another Cleric domain, the cooking domain.  I tried to focus on the act of cooking and feeding rather than general food to differentiate from existing subclasses (I was going to do famine domain, but was definitely beaten to that concept pretty hard).  Take a look, let me know what you think!


Seems solid. Nourishing Sustenance is a bit confusing, might need an editing pass.

Charming Cuisine shouldn't let the victim know they were charmed. Its a really niche ability that will rarely come into play. Make it stronger.
I also wonder if perhaps letting the caster frighten as an alternative option to charm could open up its useability. 

I'd love to see specific meals giving specific benefits too. A curry dish that makes them resistance to fire or whatever. Lot of extra work i know.

Sorry for stealing Famine  :Small Tongue:

----------


## animorte

> I'd love to see specific meals giving specific benefits too. A curry dish that makes them resistance to fire or whatever. Lot of extra work i know.
> 
> Sorry for stealing Famine


A note on that first bit, nickl_2000 actually has a preexisting chef build, a winner actually, that does just that. Several listed meals that provide different benefits.

I could see Famine and Harvest being on opposite ends, one being more about growth and buffs, the other being a little closer to necromancy. _Wither and Bloom_, if you will.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Old Harry MTX

Uff, I will try ro write down some ideas today, I was thinking of a subclass that can brew spells into potions and cook monsters to create meals that temporary gives to the eater some monster's characteristic (action, traits or bonus to ability score), maybe with the risk of an intoxication.

A lot of things, potentially unbalanced, and I don't even now for which class design this, but I have to start somewhere! ^^

----------


## nickl_2000

> Seems solid. Nourishing Sustenance is a bit confusing, might need an editing pass.
> 
> Charming Cuisine shouldn't let the victim know they were charmed. Its a really niche ability that will rarely come into play. Make it stronger.
> I also wonder if perhaps letting the caster frighten as an alternative option to charm could open up its useability. 
> 
> I'd love to see specific meals giving specific benefits too. A curry dish that makes them resistance to fire or whatever. Lot of extra work i know.
> 
> Sorry for stealing Famine


Yup, I actually wanted something simpler this time around since I've done the fighter chef subclass, and don't apologize I will likely do it outside of the contest because I like the idea for an evil Cleric.

Thanks for the ideas though, I will take a look at updates this weekend to incorporate those to make it more effective.  On general this felt like more of a RP centric subclass rather than a combat focused one.

----------


## Psyche

What do you ladies/gentlemen think?

----------


## nickl_2000

> What do you ladies/gentlemen think?


Give us a little time ☺️

I don't know about others, but I general am busy on weekends with family and don't do reviews.  I will get to it soon though, I promise.

----------


## sengmeng

Path of the Cannibal is up!

----------


## not_a_fish

Still working on formatting and, erm, flavor... but the Bardic College of Culinary Arts is now in draft form!

----------


## Old Harry MTX

Ok guys, i posted the link for the draft version of mine "Witch Doctor". The class is totally broken right now, and I would really appreciate your help for a feasibility study, more than a review, since I'm not sure the mechanic can be actually made playable.
For now I'm developing it as a druid subclass, but I'm also considering make it as a bard's one, or even a barbarian's one.
Also, I'm considering to get rid of the 6th level feature, that's probably too much if paired with the 2nd level one, but to convert the 2nd level feature in something sharable with the other players...

----------


## nickl_2000

Review time!

*Spoiler: Blood Hunter: Order of the Gourmand*
Show



First things first, I know very very little about the Blood Hunter.  I've never listened to Critical Roll (role?  whatever), and never had a Blood Hunter at our table.  So, I'm looking for broken things more than anything else.

*Exotic Cuisine* - The temp hit points seem like they are potentially a lot, especially at early levels.  Other ways to get THP at short rest are Celestial Warlock and Inspiring Leader.  I would imagine it would end up less than Inspiring Leader, but it should considering that this is a class feature and the other is an actual feat.

*Cooking Companion* - 14+PB on a companion seems a little high to me for the AC.  I would feel more comfortable with 13+PB, but it probably doesn't matter all that much.  Senses: Sent do you mean Scent here?  Not trying to be pedantic, just checking for clarities sake.

Otherwise it seems okay to me.  There isn't anything that looks like it is broken to me.  Sorry, not the best review, but hopefully it is better than nothing.




*Spoiler: Famine Patron*
Show



First of all, I'm giving it a negative review for stealing my idea.  In case you didn't know, I'm just kidding!

*Additional Spells* - Not sure I'm a huge fan of Protection from Poison.  Dragon's Breath poison/acid only would decent.  Melf's acid arrow.  Wither and Bloom would be a good one as well.

*Maw of Hunger* - I'm pretty sure this isn't done yet :)

*Spreading Emptiness* - From a mechanical standpoint this seems good to me.  I might consider increasing the damage over time.  Cha mod damage is pretty great at level 1, but rapidly loses it's luster for damage after a few level.  The disadvantage will always be awesome though, especially with save or suck spells.

*Cravings and Urges* - What is the action cost on this?  I think there needs to be more to this in general, look at it again and clean it up some.  Then I would be happy to take a look again.

*Everempty* - Seems fine

*Everlasting Hunger* - Action Cost, range?  What happens after 1 minute does it disappear/attack?





*Spoiler: Harvest Domain*
Show



*Spells* - Seems good to me.

*Swords from Ploughshares* - The damage seems fine, the weapon seems fine (you may need to check prices to see if there are any in the PHB and if not create some).  I am not a huge fan of being able to use Wisdom for attack and damage since it's level 1.  It makes this subclass as good of a dip as the hexblade and I don't think 5e needs more of that.  That being said, official D&D already introduced it, so who am I to say no.

*Fat and Happy* - I like this a lot, especially when you get spells like prayer of healing, mass cure wounds, mass healing word.  I love the fact that it isn't useless for someone who does need it.

*Channel Divinity: Cornucopia* - This seems fine to me.  Some usefulness in there, but nothing broken.

*Nutrition Boost* - Is this any food, or food created from the Cornucopia feature?  As in, can I cook normal foods and have this apply?

*Harvest's Bounty* - If I eat two meals you have produced, can I boost 2 stats?  Is this any meal or a meal from the Cornucopia?  The idea is good on this, but I think it needs to be limited in how often you can boost that way because as is currently you could boost the str/dex of an entire army.

*Herbicide* - The damage here is pretty high.  Yes it only impacts plant creatures, but it does the same average damage as blight with a longer range and is AoE.  Sure Blight does max damage, but it also only impacts 1 creature.

This is solid, really really solid.  It's well written has some cool, effective, and fitting mechanics.  A tiny bit of clean up and you have a great entry and a great subclass!




*Spoiler: College of Culinary Arts*
Show



*3rd Level Bonus Proficiencies* - Seems fine other than specifically setting the DC to see if something is poisonous.  Let the DM be the DM.  They can decide the appropriate DC depending on how rare and unique the item is.

*3rd Level Inspiration Dice Use: Inspired Recipes* - Bardic Inspiration can only be held for 10 minutes.  Longer than a short or long rest.  So, don't make the hold it, but rather make it so you can use one during a rest.  Also, THP standard is that they last until the next long rest so you probably don't need to mention the length in the ability.

*Yes, Chef!*  - Do they use the bardic inspiration?  Because if not that would allow a rogue to go absolutely nuts with extra damage.

*14th Level Situational Utility* - actually seems a little weak.  Heroes Feast is an awesome spell, but a super expensive one.  I would look at possibly doing more at level 14.




*Spoiler: Path of the Cannibal*
Show



Well that is a dark start  :Small Smile: 

*Iron Scales* - Seems fine, would likely be a nice little boost at level 3

*Savage Hunger* - Do you add the rage damage only when raging or all the time?  Because you are making a special attack that uses strength.  In theory it should already add rage damage when you are raging.

*Macabre Artisan* - For the sake of avoiding stacking with Magic Weapon and other spells that boost weapon, I would consider something made to be magical.

*Bottomless Gullet* - This definitely needs to be limited to 1 use a day.  That could potentially be a gigantic amount of healing and could clear a lot of debuffs (plus you can rage WAY more often with this).

*Master Macabre Artisan* - Again, I would call it magical.  Note, I would also consider having something where you can't sell it or you can only have X amount made at a time, or the bonus is only if you use the weapon.  That way you prevent abuse in a low magic campaign.





*Spoiler: Fighter: Drinker of life*
Show



*Vampiric Drain* - When/how do the death points refill?
*Necrotic strike* - What triggers this?  Just at the start of your turn?  Frankly you could make it a lot easier to say that when you deal damage with a weapon attack you may choose to do Necrotic or normal.
*Improved necrotic strike* - This could be simplified as well.
*Hunger* - Should be limited to 1 time per turn to keep it sane
*Lust for blood* - And this is a huge reason why Hunger should be limited.
*Vampiric resilience* - Charisma mod x level is gigantic.  At level 20 you could very well be looking at 100 THP.  At level 5 you are looking at 15.  It would be much more appropriate to be like the Fiend Warlock.  Also phrasing it like that would prevent the bag of rats trick.

"Dark Ones Blessing
Starting at 1st level, when you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier + your warlock level (minimum of 1)."

The hostile part of that is vital.  No matter what it requires an agreement between player and DM to not abuse it, but if there is official wording may as well follow it.

*Death's Hand* - I'm confused on this.  It sounds similar to Drain life already so I don't really see the point of it.  Personally, I would ditch this ability completely and look into the other aspects of a vampire. 


You've hit the theme plenty hard with eating, so not everything needs to be about it.  If it were me, I would lean harder into other vampire like abilities.  Maybe some charm like ability at 15 or 18?  Maybe the ability to Wildshape into a bat at some point?  Maybe summoning the swarm of bats/rats?

Just differing the abilities will turn this class into something more dynamic and more fun to play overall.  The other thing I notice is that absolutely everything here is about combat.  Giving some abilities in the social or exploration tiers is a good thing, especially since it's a fighter subclass.




Phew, caught up for now  :Small Big Grin: 

EDIT: Nevermind, not caught up.  I'm taking a look at the Witchdoctor right not and will add it to this post

*Spoiler: Witchdoctor*
Show



*Bonus Cantrip* - Makes perfect sense

Spells - Seems fine in general, immolation is cooking it Cajun style?
You should mentioned where Galder's Speedy Courier comes from.  I had to look it up.

*Harvesting* - Do the creatures have to be dead to do this?  Seems like it should be, but thought I would bring it up since you didn't.

*Psychosis* - I'm not exactly sure how failing to harvest harms your sanity, but it could be that I am not there yet.  Either way though, I don't actually see anything dealing with Psychosis and levels and what happens, etc.  But it looks like you are working on this currently.

*Cooking* - Definitely need to remove lair action and legendary actions from here.  Also spellcasting as that could be super, super broken.  How would you work with something like multi-attack when you can do a 3 Slam attacks, do you also get the Slam attack?  It might be a good idea to also put something in there saying that the player will need to work with the DM on what abilities can be used to keep the expectations.  There are certain things that could be horribly broken in the right situation eg. Rust Monsters, Intellect Devourers, Spellcasting, Basalisk, etc.

All that being said, at the right table with the right players and DM this could be so incredibly fun and effective!

*Reading Offal* - I don't see any reason that this needs to be only once.  It's a ritual for other classes, let it be a ritual for this Druid.





Take 2 on being done, let's hope someone didn't submit another in the time that I had this open!

----------


## sengmeng

> Review time!
> 
> *Spoiler: Path of the Cannibal*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Well that is a dark start 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback, I will be implementing most of your suggestions (actually in a lot of cases what you said was what I intended and I need to put some more words in to make sure that gets across).

Edit: changes made.

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## Old Harry MTX

Thankyou for your help, in blue my answers! 




> *Spoiler: Witchdoctor*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Bonus Cantrip* - Makes perfect sense ;D
> 
> Spells - Seems fine in general, immolation is cooking it Cajun style? yep, it's the natural evolution of _create bonfire_
> You should mentioned where Galder's Speedy Courier comes from.  I had to look it up. Right. I choose it so you can make food deliveries with it... 
> ...


Thankyou again!

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## Damon_Tor

> *Swords from Ploughshares* - The damage seems fine, the weapon seems fine (you may need to check prices to see if there are any in the PHB and if not create some).  I am not a huge fan of being able to use Wisdom for attack and damage since it's level 1.  It makes this subclass as good of a dip as the hexblade and I don't think 5e needs more of that.  That being said, official D&D already introduced it, so who am I to say no.


The Hexblade has a very broad weapon selection, which is part of what makes it so attractive for optimization. The shovels/rakes here don't apply for things like polearm master or heavy weapon master, so there's a limit to how much you can optimize this. I think of it like a sort of "greater shillelagh"... and of course shillelagh is also already a thing, available with a one-level dip.

As for weight/costs and such, the PHB has a shovel on the Adventuring Gear table for 2gp/5lbs. I'll make a note making that the official price/weight of a relevant farm tool if needed. EDIT: Change made. I also noted that you get such a tool for free when you take the subclass.




> Is this [Nutrition Boost] any food, or food created from the Cornucopia feature?  As in, can I cook normal foods and have this apply?


Any food you create, yes, which would also apply to food created with spells like Goodberry and Create Food and Water, as well as the snacks you might create if you have the Chef feat. It should also apply if you grow food using Cornucopia and an ally turns into a snack via the Chef feat.




> *Harvest's Bounty* - If I eat two meals you have produced, can I boost 2 stats?  Is this any meal or a meal from the Cornucopia?  The idea is good on this, but I think it needs to be limited in how often you can boost that way because as is currently you could boost the str/dex of an entire army.


It's definitely intended to be limited to one attribute at a time, I'll check to see if there's a way to clarify that. I don't object to this buffing a large fighting force though: a stat up on an NPC is really just +1 to hit and +1 to damage, and this is a level 17 ability. Being able to buff 100+ people with Cornucopia, several castings of Create Food and Water, and a handful of Heroes Feasts for the leadership and fellow PCs feels appropriate to that level of play. EDIT: Wording tweaked a little. The triggering event is more explicitly the end of the long rest (not eating the food), and a new clause specifically prohibits stacking the feature.




> *Herbicide* - The damage here is pretty high.  Yes it only impacts plant creatures, but it does the same average damage as blight with a longer range and is AoE.  Sure Blight does max damage, but it also only impacts 1 creature.


 Good points. I'm reducing it's damage by 1 dice, which puts it on par with an upcast fireball. EDIT: Change made

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## not_a_fish

> Review time!
> 
> *Spoiler: College of Culinary Arts*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *3rd Level Bonus Proficiencies* - Seems fine other than specifically setting the DC to see if something is poisonous.  Let the DM be the DM.  They can decide the appropriate DC depending on how rare and unique the item is.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the review - and the reminder that Bard Inspiration is only 10 minutes - that changes how I'll think about the subclass' dice powers.  

With the THP, I did want to mention a duration, though, since otherwise THP is lost when you "finish a long rest".

Edited to add that - that said - I don't think Temp HP from inspiration is going to make it into my final draft.

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## not_a_fish

> I'm actually losing my mind trying to figure out a general rule to identify and limit such cases... Ideas are welcome!
> 
> What do you think about the ability to Brew Concoctions? Is it redundant? Maybe I should make the meals sharable and get rid of it?


The Wild-Magic-liker in me approves of the idea of risking Psychosis/Intoxication as a component of gaining new powers through Cooking, but I think Intoxication needs to come into play at a much lower level- possibly as low as CR 1, or CR Proficiency/2.  The more prudent thing to do might be to just have some CR limits like with wild shape, and to give the DM some veto power over whether certain monstrosities/aberrations are edible. And I'd just take Multiattack off the table.

Between brewing concoctions and making the cooking power sharable, I like the sharing better.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

Thankyou for your help! 




> The Wild-Magic-liker in me approves of the idea of risking Psychosis/Intoxication as a component of gaining new powers through Cooking, but I think Intoxication needs to come into play at a much lower level- possibly as low as CR 1, or CR Proficiency/2.  The more prudent thing to do might be to just have some CR limits like with wild shape, and to give the DM some veto power over whether certain monstrosities/aberrations are edible. And I'd just take Multiattack off the table.


The problem to add an effective limitation to CR is that the ingredients are "hunted" not "chosen" as the druid or the ranger do with their wildshape/companion. So if a player at 5th level can only prepare meals from ingredients from CR 1 creatures, but the DM put on the battleground only creatures with CR 5 or higher, the player cannot prepare meals until he reaches higher levels. That's why I'm searching other ways to limit that.

If I can't find a general rule I would surely add a guideline to give the DM some veto power. 

Regards multiattack I actually like the idea of something that can potentially emulate the number of attacks of a fighter, but I know that it would be very tempting for multiclassing, or if the meals become sharable. I would probably limit it to two attacks, or to the number of attacks that the player can normally makes during an Attack action, or specify that the levels needed to unlock more attacks and to prevent Intoxications are druid only, and not the overall level like a cantrip. 




> Between brewing concoctions and making the cooking power sharable, I like the sharing better.


Yes, the brewing concoctions feature derives from a feature of another class I made times ago for another contest, I took that because I feel it in theme with food and foodies, but overall seems too much. I will make the meals sharable from 6th level. This should also make the class less unbalanced (since it gives to the other player more power and options ^^)

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## nickl_2000

> I'm actually losing my mind trying to figure out a general rule to identify and limit such cases... Ideas are welcome!


This is one of the significant issues with an ability like this.  You are giving free rein to imaginative players, which is really cool, but also so incredibly hard to control.  You could limit it to certain types of monster possible, for example if you don't allow it from Monstrosities or Aberrations you will prevent a lot of the abuse.  This would still leave you with beasts, celestials, dragons, fey, fiend, giants, humanoids, and plants.  You could also not allow any "named" creature.  As in a default Goblin is perfectly fine, but not Grenl the Goblin from Sunless Citadel, that will prevent some abuse and odd abilities.

I would also ban all regeneration abilities.  Something like the Vegepygmy would be really broken on a PC.


What if you could only gain physical attributes?  As in you gain arms to attack, you gain the ability to glide like a Hadozee, you gain the Dragon's Breath weapon, you gain wings and could fly.  Is that something that would work?  I don't know, I'm doing the best I can here.



For Brewing Concoctions it seems pretty meh.  Given the requirements that it still costs a spell slot and still requires concentration, the ability has some great utility uses but isn't going to come up all that often.  It's not broken at all though, so it doesn't hurt for it to exist.  Honestly, it may be easier to get rid of it and add something simpler but more impactful.

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## Itsfrank

I voted for the foods one but I'm still not very good at this. I still enjoy reading and voting so I'll keep doing that but might submit a thing from time to time.

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## nickl_2000

> I voted for the foods one but I'm still not very good at this. I still enjoy reading and voting so I'll keep doing that but might submit a thing from time to time.


It's okay, take your time.

Here is my process
1) Brainstorm different concepts related to the topics.  I keep a google document of all the ideas I've had in the past to reference for future stuff and things I might be excited in.
for example:
*Tavern Contest*
-Bard who uses alcohol as a focus
-Artificer who turns alcohol into potions
-Rogue Circus performer with alcohol fire breath
-Bar brawl fighter
-Tavern performer bard
-Cleric alcohol domain
-Cleric wine domain
-Gamer character
-Dice master sorcerer


2) Choose one and decide where it would fit best or be the most fun.  Often times in this particular case, I will change up classes from the original idea or modify it further.

3) Create another google doc for the one that sounds the most fun and make a listing of abilities that make the most sense with the theme, I give myself a couple of days and leave it open on my phone to add ideas in.  If I can't come up with 6-7 good base concepts, I will actually start again with a different idea.  I have 15-20 started ideas that I have never been able to make work but want to eventually (Druid: Circle of Life based on the Lion King movie and Rafaki, Fey Bloodline Sorcerer, etc).

4) If I get 6-7 good ideas I start to work out abilities.  First thing I do is go into my analysis document I wrote for me and copy and paste the levels from it.  I see what ideas ability concepts fit where in the level progression.

5) Flesh out the actual abilities to see what they will really do and work on perceived balance.

6) Write the fluff around it, I've had fluff running through my mind so it is usually easy to fill in at this point.

7) Relook at the abilities a bunch more times to make sure I think they are balanced.

8) Post it to the contest to find out what I was horribly wrong about being balanced and cross my fingers feeling anxiety that I screwed up, wrote junk, and embarrassed myself with typos and nonsensical sentences.


As a side note on #8, I've never felt anyone actually judge me on how well something has been written or typos or nonsense.  I feel we have a great and nice group, but I still feel that anxiety every time (so you aren't alone if you feel it too).

As a side note on #4, the easier the ideas come to me about concepts the better my subclass tends to be (don't know if this applies to others, but it definitely does for me).  If I can come up with concepts quickly and rapidly I usually have more interest and passion in the concept and I do a better job on it.

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## Old Harry MTX

> I voted for the foods one but I'm still not very good at this. I still enjoy reading and voting so I'll keep doing that but might submit a thing from time to time.


This contest have a hard theme, I'm quite sure that we will see few entries than the last one. Don't worry if you can't find the right inspiration.

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## Damon_Tor

Sengmeng, I read through your cannibal subclass sure I was going to hate it, but it's great and I kind of love it.




> *Path of the Cannibal*
> A lizardfolk-only barbarian subclass.
> 
> Most of the subclass features enhance or otherwise interact with lizardfolk racial features. Those features are spoilered here for convenience:*Spoiler: Lizardfolk features*
> Show
> 
> *Ability Score Increase.* Your Constitution score increase by 2, and your Wisdom score increases by 1.
> *Age.* Lizardfolk reach maturity around age 14 and rarely live longer than 60 years.
> *Size.* Lizardfolk are a little bulkier and taller than humans, and their colorful frills make them appear even larger. Your size is Medium.
> ...


Should more races get race-specific subclasses? I would have said "no" before. You have shaken my faith, sir.




> *Iron Scales*
> Beginning at third level when you select this subclass, your dietary habits make you even tougher. You can calculate your armor class according to your natural armor racial feature, your unarmored defense feature, or as 13 + your constitution modifier from this feature.
> 
> *Savage Hunger*
> Also at third level, when you use your Hungry Jaws racial ability, you add your barbarian level to the number of temporary hitpoints you gain. You add your rage damage to bite attacks when raging.


Cool features. I'll note that there's no reason a barbarian's rage damage wouldn't apply to attacks made with a natural weapon normally, so it shouldn't be necessary to say so.




> *Macabre Artisan*
> Begining at sixth level, you add humanoid to the list of creatures you can use to fashion items from your cunning artisan racial feature. Additionally, if you use a weapon fashioned from parts of a creature on another creature of that same species, it gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls, unless that creature is immune to fear. Likewise, a shield grants an additional +1 AC against attack rolls by creatures of the type it was crafted from, unless that creature is immune to fear. You can also gather a week's rations from a medium sized humanoid, or three day's rations from a small humanoid. The bonuses from this feature do not work for creatures other than you and are not magical but do not stack with magical bonuses.


This is really freaking cool. I would be inclined to (a) say that the weapons should count as magical against creatures of the same type and (b) increase the damage from a simple +1 to something more significant while you are raging (probably +1d6, maybe scaling with level) and (c) shouldn't be prohibited from stacking with other magical bonuses if relevant (though it won't usually be). This subclass lacks a damage bonus feature AND the weapons you can make with Cunning Artisan are low-damage weapons, 1d4 or 1d6 weapons at best. I know you allow the creation of (slightly) better weapons later, but still, the class could use a damage boost sooner.

I would probably move this to third level, while maybe moving Savage Hunger to 6th. I feel like this is maybe the coolest part of the subclass and lacking it for three levels would hurt.




> *Flesh Seeker*
> Also at sixth level, you have advantage on survival checks to track a creature if you've eaten members of its species before, including using your Hungry Jaws feature on them.


Pretty niche, but it's an extra feature at a level that already has one, so that's fine. Maybe expand it to perception checks and investigation checks as well. _"A halfling wassss here... touched thisss knife with hisssss greasssy fat fingerssss... thissss iss hissss blood here..."_ *tastes the blood* _"... yesss... fat little halfling... in good health... young... was fearful when blood wassss shed... mmm..."_ *tastes the blood some more*




> *Bottomless Gullet*
> Beginning at tenth level, if you make a meal out of a humanoid of medium size or larger, or two humanoids of small size, you can gain the benefits of a long rest on a short rest. This consumes all the available flesh, so you cannot also harvest rations from them, but you can still fashion a shield or weapons from them. Once you have used this feature, you must take an actual long rest before you can use it again


Cooooool.




> *Feeding Frenzy*
> Beginning at 14th level, whenever you use your action to attack during a rage, you may use your bite attack as a bonus action, and also as part of the bonus action to enter a rage. The first time you use Hungry Jaws during a rage, the use is not consumed.


Looks fine. Maybe rephrase to "When you enter your rage you recover your use of your Hungry Jaws racial feature."




> *Master Macabre Artisan*
> Also at 14th level, you add spears, pikes, greatclubs, and 1d4 arrows to the items you can craft from corpses, and if available, you can incorporate two corpses into the creation of an item so that it can gain the bonus from Macabre Artisan against two different species.


IMO Spears, Greatclubs and Pikes aren't strong enough to justify the late arrival of this feature. Really you could go back and add this to the basic feature at sixth level (or third) and not move the needle much.

In total: cool as heck. 
Mechanically: High AC and good thp generation make this guy reasonably durable early on, but since it lacks real damage features, "aggro management" features, or any kind of teamwork abilities, it needs some buff someplace. Bonus damage to the crafted weapons with the feature migrating to 3rd level would give you what you need, I think. Alternatively you could play with fear effects for some crowd control.

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## Old Harry MTX

> IMO Spears, Greatclubs and Pikes aren't strong enough to justify the late arrival of this feature. Really you could go back and add this to the basic feature at sixth level (or third) and not move the needle much.


I totally agree with this.

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## Itsfrank

You guys are so nice and this is really good advice. I hope other people see it and feel inspired like me

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## animorte

> As a side note on #4, the easier the ideas come to me about concepts the better my subclass tends to be (don't know if this applies to others, but it definitely does for me).  If I can come up with concepts quickly and rapidly I usually have more interest and passion in the concept and I do a better job on it.


Absolutely, on that last note. Just looking through all the other themes of past contests, I've had some really cool ideas come to mind. This was not one of them!  :Small Tongue: 

I keep a document on my desktop with tons of ability names/effects (my wife is a great help on clever names) and I keep a sheet of paper with me throughout the day to jot down new ideas as I'm working or whatever other responsibilities.

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## not_a_fish

I think The College of Culinary Arts is ready, after taking nickl_2000's suggestions into consideration.

I'm still very interested in feedback on the style and mechanics.

Mechanically, I think it's more or less in line with the PHB subclasses, but depending on whether Sneak Attacks or smites are allowed on the reaction attack, the 6th level feature might still be too much.

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## not_a_fish

> Absolutely, on that last note. Just looking through all the other themes of past contests, I've had some really cool ideas come to mind. This was not one of them!


Aw, I like it!  :Small Red Face:

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## animorte

> Aw, I like it!


I doesnt help that I just used up some of my food ideas with the Waiter subclass in my Cleaner for the base class contest.

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## Old Harry MTX

Ok guys, I formatted the Witch Doctor version for the forum, you can find it here.

I'm actually quite happy with the result, expecially considering how weird is the main mechanic. It will surely needs some other tweaks, and I hope to receive some further feedback from you.

At the moment, the thing that convinces me least is the duration of the effect. The fact that the player can "cook and eat" only at the end of a rest, and that the effect only lasts until it finishes a long rest, may force it to have to do too much resource planning.

These are the changes I've made lately:

Added more flavor, changed some wording (E.G. butchering instead of harvesting, prey instead of creature) to give more a voodoo/savage feeling.Homebrewed the two orignal bonus spells (Icebox and Starvation).The witch doctor can now cook and eat up to 2 meals, but must spend a use of wildshape each. It can't regain it as long as the effect of the meal lasts.Added more rules to follow when the witch doctor gains the traits of the eaten creatures.Removed Psychosis (was redundant).Tied Intoxication to exhaustion.Added a TextBox with some instruction for the DM to avoid balancing issues.Replaced the Brewing Concoctions feature with Sharing Gluttony. Now the witch doctor can share its food and give a trait of a cooked creature to a friend.Added Tribal Feast at 14th, a standard strong upgrade.Added also an original feats. I am not very used in homebrewing feats, it could be unbalanced, maybe I should remove the +1 to Constitution.
I'll read the other entries in the next few days!

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## nickl_2000

If there was ever a contest that needed lots of flavor, it's this one!

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## animorte

> If there was ever a contest that needed lots of flavor, it's this one!


That's an internet win for you, sir. Clever.

My current work in progress is a Monk, inspired by the phrase, "knuckle sandwich."

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## Lvl45DM!

So I took another run at the Famine Patron. Added some special invocations cleaned up language, actually gave it a 1st level feature

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## Ilerien

Edginess intensifies as I present you another take on a subclass with vampiric powers.

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## Psyche

Prediction: You are going to get twice the votes I do, even after I revise it(coming in the next week)
P.S. You mind if I make a d10 table and borrow from your quirks? I am going to add that and so if with your permission I could do something better, that would be great.

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## Ilerien

> P.S. You mind if I make a d10 table and borrow from your quirks? I am going to add that and so if with your permission I could do something better, that would be great.


That's not really how that ability works... But okay, I'll allow it. ©  :Small Wink: 
Sure, I don't mind.  :Small Smile:

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## Old Harry MTX

Guys, I need your advice. I want to add to the witch doctor a way to create a meal you have already created in the past even if you don't have the right ingredient. I was thinking to make it as a custom spell instead of a feature, you can see a draft below:

*Spoiler: Alchemical Cuisine*
Show

*Alchemical Cuisine*

_5th level transmutation_

*Casting Time:* 1 action
*Range:* touch (a magical meal)
*Components:* V S M (exotic spices worth 50 golden pieces x the CR of the desired prey, which the spell consumes)
*Duration:* Instantaneous
*Classes:* Circle of the Witch Doctor

While cooking a magical meal, you transmute it into another meal you have cooked in the past. You must use the exotic spices and an ingredient butchered from a prey with a CR not lower than that of the original creature of your desired meal.


The problem is that usually a spell never refers to a specific class feature, but I feel that I don't have enough room to add an additional feature. So, I have these options:I discard this spell/featureI put it in place of the custom bonus spell "starvation" (5th level, you can see it below). But I personally like it even if it can be used for shenanigans like "sickening radiance"I put it in place of the bonus spell 'speedy courier" (4th level). I like the idea of a spell to make food deliveries but it's a bit forced and it's from a very niche manual.I convert "starvation" in a 4th level spell, put it in place of "speedy courier", and add "alchemical cuisine" as a 5th level one.I leave the bonus spell like they are now, and convert "alchemical cuisine" in a 10th level feature, replacing "exquisite cuisine" (you can see it below).I merge "alchemical cuisine" and "exquisite cuisine" in a single feature, but still I feel that I don't have enough room for all.

What do you think? 

*Spoiler: Starvation*
Show

*Starvation*

_5th level necromancy_

*Casting Time:* 1 action
*Range:* 120 feet
*Components:* V S M (a piece of spoiled food)
*Duration:* Instantaneous
*Classes:* Circle of the Witch Doctor

You inflict wracking hunger pangs on each creature within a 20-foot-radius sphere  centered on a point you choose within range.
The creatures must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 5d10 necrotic damage and suffer one level of exhaustion. A creature that makes a successful saving throw takes half damage, and does not suffer other effects. A creature that does not need to feed is immune to the effects of this spell.

After a failed save, the target suffers a rabid hunger for 1 minute. During that time, it suffers 1d10 necrotic damage at the end of each of its turns, and gains a bite attack that inflicts 1 + its Strength modifier piercing damage, if it doesn't already have one. The effect lasts until the target successfully hits a creature with its bite attack, uses its action to eat something, falls unconscious, or the spell ends.


*Spoiler: Exquisite Cuisine*
Show

*Exquisite Cuisine*

Starting from 10th level, when you cast _create food and water_, the food you create is of excellent quality and you can produce any kind of non-magical drink. You have advantage on all Charisma checks directed at any friendly creature that consumes a full meal made by you this way. The effect lasts for an hour or as long the creature is friendly.

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## Crim the Cold

Gonna have to sit this one out. Food themed subclasses aren't my groove. I'm experimenting with some music themed monk abilities as well as a new mechanical idea I had for monks. Hopefully a music theme will come around sometime and I can share my idea.

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## Old Harry MTX

Ok guys, I made the final fixes to the witch doctor:
Replaced the custom spell Starvation with Vitriolic Sphere. I just like the idea of splashing the enemies with a huge ball of gastric acid to pre-digest them.Added the Alchemical Cooking custom spell. It's a bit odd since usually a spell should never refer to a specific class feature, but I can live with it.
I also read the other entries, I jotted down some opinions straight away.

*Spoiler: Blood Hunter: Order of the Gourmand*
Show

*Blood Hunter: Order of the Gourmand*

I admit, I have no idea how a Blood Hunter works.

Exotic Cuisine: Simple and clear. Maybe tieing the hit points bonus to a double roll may have a very wide range of results, i would probably change it in a hemocraft die + your proficiency bonus.

Cooking Companion: Why not call this one "Sous Chef"? Solid, but seems a bit out of theme.

Blood Forager: Ok, so you drink blood like a vampire?

High on the Hog: Again, solid but I can't feel the theme of the contest.

Improved Forager: How do you manage the "bag of rats" problem? You should probably add some limitations like "while in combat" (it's not always obvious), and maybe a size and/or CR restriction of the target creature.

Prized Spirit: Nice.


*Spoiler: Famine Patron*
Show

*Famine Patron*

Additional Spells: Seems good, you should consider Sickening Radiance too.

Maw of Hunger: The bite attack deals 1d6 piercing damage + no Ability modifier? Maybe you don't need to add a limited number of uses, monks can make an additional unarmed strike with a bonus action, so you probably could do the same. Also a warlock relies mainly on Eldritch Blast, and if I understand well you can use it as a bonus action only if you take an Attack action, right?

Spreading Emptiness: Nice, maybe I would prefer it tied with Maw of Hunger, but I like the idea.

Cravings and Urges: it's not very formally written, but the mechanic is solid. Maybe it's too strong, I would let it recover the uses after a long rest. What if the target can't reach the object?

Everempty: Ok

Everlasting Hunger: The attack must be a weapon attack, or can be a bite attack or an eldritch blast too?

Gnawing Hunger: Contagion already asks the target to make Constitution saving throws, at least until the effect becomes "chronic". Overall it seems to me a bit over complicated. Does a successful save resets the damage bonus or does it continue to increase every round (6-10 seconds) for an entire week?

Shared Hunger: Ok

Devour Life: the effect stacks at each hit? How long does it last?


*Spoiler: Harvest Domain*
Show

*Harvest Domain*

Additional Spells: Good

Swords from Ploughshares: Good. Whats a Ploughshare? The fact that you can use wisdom is strong but not broken. Also, I like the Shillelagh mechanic.

Fat and Happy: Very strong but nice. Can you do that spending Hit Dice at the end of a short rest?

Channel Divinity: Cornucopia: Nice and thematically good.

Nutrition Boost: It works only for Cornucopia or with Goodberry and Create Food and Water too?

Divine Strike: Classic.

Harvest's Bounty: Good.

Herbicide and Repel Vermin: Themed, maybe they have effects a bit too specific.


*Spoiler: Bardic College of Culinary Arts*
Show

*Bardic College of Culinary Arts*

Bonus Proficiencies: What entretain do?

Inspired Recipes: Nice, but maybe a bit weak.

Yes, Chef!: A bit thematically forced but good. Maybe you should specify "you may shoot a quick order to another FRIENDLY creature"?

A Worthy Feast: Good. I don't like too much the fact that it's tied to your Cook's Utensil proficiency, but the rest is nice.


*Spoiler: Cleric: Cooking Domain*
Show

*Cleric: Cooking Domain*

Additional Spells: Good.

Cooking Magic: Good.

Divine Snack: Nice and strong.

Channel Divinity: Charming Cuisine: Nice, i added a similar one to mine subclass as well ^^

Channel Divinity: Frightening Fare: Mmm, the idea is that you drug the creatures with some sort of hypnotic shrooms? I don't know, it feels a bit weird.

Channel Divinity: Hearty Meal: Nice, maybe I would add a limitation to the number of creatures and change the bonus to your cleric level + your wisdom modifier, similar to the Fat and Happy feature of the  Damon_Tor's Harvest Domain.

Summon Hearth: Nice and thematically good.

Potent Spellcasting: Classic.

Nourishing Sustenance: Good.


*Spoiler: Path of the Cannibal*
Show

*Path of the Cannibal*

I don't have too much to say, I like it. I would have written it very similarly if I had the same idea.

Iron Scales: Good. Can you still use the shield?

*Spoiler: Fighter: Drinker of life*
Show

*Fighter: Drinker of life*

Vampiric Drain: First of all, how do you recover death points? The cost of Drain life should avoid the "bag of rats" problem, but I haven't run the math. It's strange to see a Necrotic Strike and an Improved Necrotic Strike option in the same feature. For the sake of simplicity, you should probably remove the first and keep the latter.

Vampiric Hunger: Mmm, the fighter already can make a lot of attacks, are you sure it has enough room for more of them? 

Vampiric resilience: Very strong. probably you should limit it to 1 time per long rest, or at least 1 time per short rest. What if it will reset your use of Second Wind instead?

Death's Hand: Again, other attacks to the fighter seem to me a bit too much.

Eternal resilience: I don't know, it seems the same of the other features but with another formulation. When you say "kill a creature" you mean reducing it to 0 hit points? A maximum of 75 temporary hit points seems insane.


*Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Sanguine Sorcery*
Show

*Sorcerous Origin: Sanguine Sorcery*

Quirks: Very good.

Blood Ward: Nice, maybe i would have formulated it not as temporary hit points but similar to Arcane Ward.

Blood Magic: Good.

Nightstalker's Sight: Good.

Font of Lifeforce: Very nice.

Blood Memory: Nice. I don't know if formulating it similar to Speak with Dead would be better, but the mechanic is good.

Blood Drain: A bit overcomplicated but good.

Durable Casting: Nice, I too have experimented with features that allowed you to keep concentration on two spells at once, but I never managed to understand how broken it could be. Either way, it seems well balanced to me.

Mist Form: Nice, but I would probably nerf it a bit, either adding a saving throw to the damage, changing the damage to "if a creature ends its turn in a space occupied by you", or reducing the healing to half the damage dealt.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Swords from Ploughshares: Good. Whats a Ploughshare? The fact that you can use wisdom is strong but not broken. Also, I like the Shillelagh mechanic.


A ploughshare (also spelled "plowshare") is the main cutting blade of a plow. The name of the ability is a play on the biblical verse Isiah 2:4 "they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." It's about a prophesied beginning of an age of peace when men would reforge their weapons into farming tools. This ability is the inverse, taking up farming tools to use as weapons.




> Fat and Happy: Very strong but nice. Can you do that spending Hit Dice at the end of a short rest?


Yes. With a harvest cleric along it pays to have a short rest right at the start of the day: breakfast, if you will.




> Nutrition Boost: It works only for Cornucopia or with Goodberry and Create Food and Water too?


Any food you create, yes.

----------


## not_a_fish

Thanks for the feedback! I thought I'd try doing some reviews as well. 


*Spoiler: Blood Hunter: Order of the Gourmand*
Show

*Blood Hunter: Order of the Gourmand*
I also don't know what the Blood Hunter Class is, but it looks like a gothic-horror gish class with a trade-hp-for-damage mechanic.

I like the vibe this class is going for - focusing on the hunting rather than the monster-movie horror.

The 3rd-level features seem rather powerful, especially the companion.  The food theme also seems to take a leave of absence between levels 3 and 18.

I'd roll one of these guys up as an NPC villain hunting The Most Dangerous Game, but I might shy away from doing one as a PC.




*Spoiler: Famine Patron*
Show

*Famine Patron*
This looks pretty solid conceptually and mechanically.

Maw of Hunger is difficult to read, though. The Maw damage and the bonus action Bite Attack damage are the same, yes? Also, what is the Maw? Is it an extra mouth on Warlock's body? An extradimensional summon?

Would I play a Faminelock? Probably not. Can I imagine someone playing one and having fun with it? Yes.




*Spoiler: Harvest Domain*
Show

*Harvest Domain*
This is a class I would play. Likely as a halfling, out for revenge on whoever ruined his pumpkin harvest.

The Channel Divinity bit about producing eggs or milk might need some re-wording - I think I know what you are going for, but it could be read as causing a beast to lay 1gp eggs in perpetuity until it dies from exhaustion. Which echoes some Celtic agricultural folklore, I think, but might play poorly in the game.  I also wonder if the Channel Divinity powers might be able to be used tactically - the class already has a lot of ways to keep people fed.

This is not a class for power-gaming, but I think it has enough that it is viable, and it is very thematic.




*Spoiler: Cooking Domain*
Show

*Cooking Domain*
I love the goodberry shade. 
I like that you made this a cantrip-focused cleric, and most of the spells fit the domestic theme of the class well. I'm not sold on Commune with Nature.
Some of the Channel Divinity uses seem a little difficult to use, especially the debuffs. 
Does Nourishing Sustenance come online at Level 17?




*Spoiler: Path of the Cannibal*
Show

*Path of the Cannibal*
This is interesting. I like it.  If in a strategic campaign, I'd likely be trying to make as large a collection of artisan javelins as I could.  I don't think it would be OP, but it would change my approach to the game quite a bit.



*Spoiler: Fighter: Drinker of life*
Show

*Fighter: Drinker of life*

I think others have mentioned this, but the recovery method for Death Points (as in, long rest, short rest, etc) needs to be specified. 
I think that many of the abilities look fun to use.  The level 10 ability needs a lot of balancing, though, while I wish the Level 15 ability (and, depending on how DP regenerates, the level 18 ability) came online sooner.



*Spoiler: Druid: Witch Doctor*
Show

*Druid: Witch Doctor*
The core mechanic of this class is wild, but fun. I can imagine it being an effort to teach and DM for, but could be rewarding. It feels balanced-ish at this point, and I like how the new spells support the class features.

It does feel like it is pulling features from both the core druid subclasses - other Circle Druids might feel like they are getting short-shrift compared to this class, despite the usefulness of their spell recovery.



*Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Sanguine Sorcery*
Show

*Sorcerous Origin: Sanguine Sorcery*
Feels VERY vampiric. My main critique is that it seems pretty front-loaded. The theme plays well with multiclassing, but it would also be very tempting to dip in just for mechanical reasons.  The Blood Drain feature is also kind of confusingly worded - I think the specificity of needing to cast a spell as part of the attack is getting in the way of communicating the feature's benefits.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> The Channel Divinity bit about producing eggs or milk might need some re-wording - I think I know what you are going for, but it could be read as causing a beast to lay 1gp eggs in perpetuity until it dies from exhaustion. Which echoes some Celtic agricultural folklore, I think, but might play poorly in the game.  I also wonder if the Channel Divinity powers might be able to be used tactically - the class already has a lot of ways to keep people fed.


I tweaked the wording some, hopefully eliminating the infinite eggs interpretation.

As for tactical uses, you can hide rather effectively in a 10/10 patch of fully grown wheat or corn. A large-sized fruit tree can provide cover, or be used a way to climb a wall, and can be used in conjunction with tree stride or awaken. A 10/10 patch of blackberry brambles is very challenging to get through. You could effectively imprison an incapacitated creature by planting something like grape vines all around its prone body and letting them grow around their wrists and ankles like manacles. All of this is mitigated by the 1 minute growth time of course, but the ability is more versatile than it might appear at first glance.

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## Old Harry MTX

> *Druid: Witch Doctor*
> The core mechanic of this class is wild, but fun. I can imagine it being an effort to teach and DM for, but could be rewarding. It feels balanced-ish at this point, and I like how the new spells support the class features.
> 
> It does feel like it is pulling features from both the core druid subclasses - other Circle Druids might feel like they are getting short-shrift compared to this class, despite the usefulness of their spell recovery.


Thank you! The fact that it at least looks balanced is a very good result. ^^

The idea of creating some sort of blue mage from Final Fantasy has always teased and scared me, but in the end I am satisfied with the result.

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## Ilerien

> *Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Sanguine Sorcery*
> Show
> 
> *Sorcerous Origin: Sanguine Sorcery*
> 
> Quirks: Very good.
> 
> Blood Ward: Nice, maybe i would have formulated it not as temporary hit points but similar to Arcane Ward.
> 
> ...


My sincere gratitude for the review. :)
Regarding Mist Form, I'll probably change healing to half the damage dealt.


> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> *Sorcerous Origin: Sanguine Sorcery*
> Feels VERY vampiric. My main critique is that it seems pretty front-loaded. The theme plays well with multiclassing, but it would also be very tempting to dip in just for mechanical reasons.  The Blood Drain feature is also kind of confusingly worded - I think the specificity of needing to cast a spell as part of the attack is getting in the way of communicating the feature's benefits.


Thank you for the review! :)
Front-loadedness is exactly the reason why I had to do it inelegantly and put a restriction by both proficiency bonus and sorcerer level on a number of HD you can sacrifice simultaneously to activate Blood Ward. One HD worth of temporary HP isn't that great, certainly nothing to go out of your way and dip into this sorcerer. Another solution is to restrict it to sorcerer hit dice only, but I think it would make tracking it too clumsy. Darkvision is a good bonus, but still not dip-worthy.
I agree that the wording of Blood Drain is clumsy. I'll try to fix it, but it probably won't do much, as the eligibility criteria for an attack take a lot of space. I wanted booming blade (weapon attack directly as a result of the spell), shadow blade (attack with a weapon conjured by a spell), vampiric touch (spell attack as a result of ongoing spell effect) and inflict wounds (just straight spell attack) all to be eligible.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> I agree that the wording of Blood Drain is clumsy. I'll try to fix it, but it probably won't do much, as the eligibility criteria for an attack take a lot of space. I wanted booming blade (weapon attack directly as a result of the spell), shadow blade (attack with a weapon conjured by a spell), vampiric touch (spell attack as a result of ongoing spell effect) and inflict wounds (just straight spell attack) all to be eligible.


Why you cannot just say "Each time you hit a creature with a melee spell or weapon attack roll or as part of a sorcerer spell..."?

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## Ilerien

> Why you cannot just say "Each time you hit a creature with a melee spell or weapon attack roll or as part of a sorcerer spell..."?


I think this wording doesn't make it clear enough you can smack someone with a shadow blade to trigger healing. Anyway, I tried to make it less cumbersome. :)

Edit: didn't notice the "or". It would mean this sorcerer can just stab someone with a dagger. Or, in case of paladin/sorcerer, slash someone with a halberd, smite on top of it and then heal a bit.

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## Psyche

What do you think?

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> I think this wording doesn't make it clear enough you can smack someone with a shadow blade to trigger healing. Anyway, I tried to make it less cumbersome. :)
> 
> Edit: didn't notice the "or". It would mean this sorcerer can just stab someone with a dagger. Or, in case of paladin/sorcerer, slash someone with a halberd, smite on top of it and then heal a bit.


Nono, the "or" of "... attack roll or as part... " was a typo, the correct phrase is "Each time you hit a creature with a melee spell attack roll or melee weapon attack roll as part of a sorcerer spell..." ^^




> What do you think?


About what Psyche? O_o

----------


## Psyche

What gate? What subclass? He redesigned what? A subclass? What subclass?

----------


## Ilerien

> Nono, the "or" of "... attack roll or as part... " was a typo, the correct phrase is "Each time you hit a creature with a melee spell attack roll or melee weapon attack roll as part of a sorcerer spell..." ^^


The original point stands then. ;)

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## MoleMage

Hey everyone, checking back in after my month of hiatus and I regret to say I'm probably going to have to make that hiatus indefinite. The original impetus has not resolved yet and on top of that my wife and I are trying to get our small business up and running again after several years of mothballs. Even if I have the time to work on this (and the Base Class Contest, getting its own post as soon as I finish this one), I'd rather spend the time and energy on one of those other things. It's been a lot of fun seeing everyone's entries and writing all these subclasses for the last couple years and I hope you guys keep this running because I think it's good stuff and good community. When my life calms down a bit I might drop in and do an entry here and there still, so I'm not gone forever.

If someone does want to take over as the long-term organizer of the contest, send me a PM and I'll send you my spreadsheet that has all the themes and records and everything. Again, it's been wonderful being here with so many great designers and I hope you all continue to do this.

--MoleMage

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## Old Harry MTX

> Hey everyone, checking back in after my month of hiatus and I regret to say I'm probably going to have to make that hiatus indefinite. The original impetus has not resolved yet and on top of that my wife and I are trying to get our small business up and running again after several years of mothballs. Even if I have the time to work on this (and the Base Class Contest, getting its own post as soon as I finish this one), I'd rather spend the time and energy on one of those other things. It's been a lot of fun seeing everyone's entries and writing all these subclasses for the last couple years and I hope you guys keep this running because I think it's good stuff and good community. When my life calms down a bit I might drop in and do an entry here and there still, so I'm not gone forever.
> 
> If someone does want to take over as the long-term organizer of the contest, send me a PM and I'll send you my spreadsheet that has all the themes and records and everything. Again, it's been wonderful being here with so many great designers and I hope you all continue to do this.
> 
> --MoleMage


Oh, that's sad! Hope you could come back soon as possible! You'll find us all here!

I don't know if I can take the commitment to take your place (I don't have too much free time and it would be better if someone native English speakers did it ^^), but if no one else shows up you can count on me.

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## Psyche

I will host anytime. I am not that experienced, but I have quite a few theme ideas and lots of free time. :Small Smile:

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## nickl_2000

> Hey everyone, checking back in after my month of hiatus and I regret to say I'm probably going to have to make that hiatus indefinite. The original impetus has not resolved yet and on top of that my wife and I are trying to get our small business up and running again after several years of mothballs. Even if I have the time to work on this (and the Base Class Contest, getting its own post as soon as I finish this one), I'd rather spend the time and energy on one of those other things. It's been a lot of fun seeing everyone's entries and writing all these subclasses for the last couple years and I hope you guys keep this running because I think it's good stuff and good community. When my life calms down a bit I might drop in and do an entry here and there still, so I'm not gone forever.
> 
> If someone does want to take over as the long-term organizer of the contest, send me a PM and I'll send you my spreadsheet that has all the themes and records and everything. Again, it's been wonderful being here with so many great designers and I hope you all continue to do this.
> 
> --MoleMage


Good luck with everything!






> I will host anytime. I am not that experienced, but I have quite a few theme ideas and lots of free time.


You are welcome to take over.  I've proven through my lousy math skills that I'm, at best, a good substitute  :Small Big Grin: 

The contest ends on 9/19 and the voting begins, so you are welcome to set up the voting thread.

----------


## Psyche

On a less  :Frown:  note, how do you like my subclass!

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## nickl_2000

Hopefully this will be the last of the reviews.  I hit a real busy time in life and work, so sorry about the delay.

*Spoiler: Fighter: Drinker of Life*
Show



*Maximized Life Force* - The amount you can get to with this seems a little nuts, especially when you take things like bounded accuracy in.  A 30 con you are looking at an additional 5 hp and a +16 to your con saves.  That is nearly an automatic success against all but the most powerful con saves.  On the other hand, it requires a massive investment in your ASIs, so we will see as I get further.

*Necrotic Strike* - This, combined with the other makes it super dangerous.  Sure the con needs a huge investment, but based on this skill you don't need to invest in anything else outside of getting high enough for good armor.

*Draining Strike* - First of all, you've given a lot at level 3 already and you don't need more.  Second of all, this fails the bag of rats test (meaning that you can get a repeated benefit by just carrying around a bag of rats with you that you can kill).  Generally the best way to take care of this problem is by given THP instead of healing or to limit the amount of times you can do it.  Once per minute is still to often.  Also, once per minute is unusual in 5e, it's not something you see in anything official.

*Dementor's Fear* - Half Proficiency mod rounded up or down?  Also, by allow this to trigger off of con, which can get to 30 you are risking breaking bounded accuracy.

*Blood Frenzy* - To much at level 7 here again.  Level 7 is often a slower level for fighters so try not to over do it.

Okay, so here is my advice on this.  Overall you are giving way to many abilities at each level.  For level 3, two abilities is fine, after that only give 1 combat effective ability.  Beyond that, I would drop the max con mod.  A class that allows you to attack with con is good enough on it's own, you don't need to make it so someone can get to 30 with that mod.

There other thing I see here is that pretty much all abilities are based around combat.  They shouldn't be.  Pretty much all official fighters get something for one of the non-combat tiers of play.  Lean into that somewhat.






*Spoiler: Sanguine Sorcery*
Show



*Blood Ward* - I would bump the THP earned from this.  You are taking damage and using hit dice to gain THP equal to the roll of the hit dice.  So overall the lose here is con mod for each hit dice and the damage taken.  I would at least give THP equal to hit dice + con for each dice rolled.  Or if not that maybe hit dice + level or something.  Maybe this will get more powerful as I go along though and that will make a difference in my opinion.

*Blood Magic* - Seems fine, lots of cantrip for a sorcerer who gets a lot already, but I love cantrips so I'm good with it.

It's really usual to give something at level 3 for a sorcerer.  That being said, this ability makes what I said in Blood Ward null and void.  Ignore that entirely!

*Mist Form* - My only issue here is the bag of rats healing rule here, you can get a total of 30d10 necrotic healing through the use of this ability, which is pretty nutes.

Overall I really like this, it's good a good vampiric feel to it.

----------


## Ilerien

> *Spoiler: Sanguine Sorcery*
> Show
> 
> *Blood Ward* - I would bump the THP earned from this.  You are taking damage and using hit dice to gain THP equal to the roll of the hit dice.  So overall the lose here is con mod for each hit dice and the damage taken.  I would at least give THP equal to hit dice + con for each dice rolled.  Or if not that maybe hit dice + level or something.  Maybe this will get more powerful as I go along though and that will make a difference in my opinion.
> 
> *Blood Magic* - Seems fine, lots of cantrip for a sorcerer who gets a lot already, but I love cantrips so I'm good with it.
> 
> It's really usual to give something at level 3 for a sorcerer.  That being said, this ability makes what I said in Blood Ward null and void.  Ignore that entirely!
> 
> ...


Thank you, your review is spot-on and much appreciated! :)

The design intent was to include Con mod in Blood Ward as evidenced by the conversion table, one can't get enough THP from it to twin a 8th level spell otherwise with single instance of Blood Ward being restricted by 1d6 * prof. But I have to recheck the math.

Mist Form used to have a tweak like "if you reduce the creature to 0 HP, you can't heal more than the amount of HP it had", but I think I looked at vampiric touch and realized the lack of the same restriction in its wording. Still, there's some difference, I should get rid of it.

Regarding the 3rd level features, well... Funny thing it's a genuine mistake I failed to catch, no idea how it crept into a sorcerer subclass.  :Small Eek:  I'll ponder on how to do it within the standard framework without cutting away mechanics.

----------


## animorte

> I am also putting forth my interest in running the contest threads. I hesitated the first go round was to my lack of GitP experience in general. 
> 
> I imagine I would just follow the same format as we're accustomed to.


Just quoting myself from the other thread.

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## Psyche

Me and animorte agreed. I will run the subclass and he will run the base class contest. 
P.S. Animorte, you should get an avatar.

----------


## animorte

> Me and animorte agreed. I will run the subclass and he will run the base class contest. 
> P.S. Animorte, you should get an avatar.


This is correct.

Haha, I will work on that. Was hoping for something custom, but well see.

----------


## nickl_2000

> This is correct.
> 
> Haha, I will work on that. Was hoping for something custom, but well see.


Sounds like a plan, thanks to both of you for stepping up and working it out between the two of you.  I will let you put out the voting thread then  :Small Big Grin:

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## Old Harry MTX

One last note about the 32nd voting thread (i write it here because I do not want to dirty it any more than I have already done).

The first themes suggested ("Louny Toones" , "Subcraft", "Disney, Dreamworks, Pixar oh my!" and probably even the paparazzi's one... ) are usually all considered inside the old  "I Read this in a Book, Once", that is not limited to books, but to any source external to the game (comics, manga, movies, anime, videogames, ...) . The problem is that "I Read this in a Book, Once" was the theme of the 30th contest, so it shouldn't be in the list of the ones pickable already ^^

Anyway, it's a very generic theme, so I think there are no problems if it will be chosen again soon, but at least the list should be:
- I Read this in a Book, once
- Bigger is better
- Something else picked randomly from the list

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## Psyche

Oh, so sorry. I will fix that immediately

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> Oh, so sorry. I will fix that immediately


Don't worry! ^^

----------


## Old Harry MTX

Come on guys! The deadline is tomorrow and there are still several participants who have not voted! Step forward!

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## animorte

> Come on guys! The deadline is tomorrow and there are still several participants who have not voted! Step forward!


Yeah I put it in my sig hoping to get some more activity

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## Damon_Tor

The Lifeshaper Wizard is done. Filling a lore gap: so many creatures of the world are said to be the product of amoral wizards damning the consequences, but never giving us the means to leave that kind of mark in the world. As noted in the entry here, these wizards make excellent members of the Simic Combine or House Vadalis, who are canonically supposed to be able to do this sort of thing.

Balance-wise the minion here can become extremely powerful, at the cost of semi-permanently tying up your spell slots. This is a new mechanic I'm tinkering with, where a spellcaster can turn its spell slot into an effect that lasts for a very long time (potentially forever) but the slot won't recover until that effect has ended. This mechanic could hypothetically be used to make a number of spells kill game balance a little less, specifically Planar Binding and Simulacrum. If those slots remained unusable as long as the effects were extant, I feel like they wouldn't be quite so maligned.

----------


## not_a_fish

> The Lifeshaper Wizard is done. Filling a lore gap: so many creatures of the world are said to be the product of amoral wizards damning the consequences, but never giving us the means to leave that kind of mark in the world. As noted in the entry here, these wizards make excellent members of the Simic Combine or House Vadalis, who are canonically supposed to be able to do this sort of thing.
> 
> Balance-wise the minion here can become extremely powerful, at the cost of semi-permanently tying up your spell slots. This is a new mechanic I'm tinkering with, where a spellcaster can turn its spell slot into an effect that lasts for a very long time (potentially forever) but the slot won't recover until that effect has ended. This mechanic could hypothetically be used to make a number of spells kill game balance a little less, specifically Planar Binding and Simulacrum. If those slots remained unusable as long as the effects were extant, I feel like they wouldn't be quite so maligned.


This class rocks - I like the concepts presented here a lot. The monster packs a big punch out of the gate, though, especially as a spellcaster's companion (unless you need to use a spell slot to keep the monster controlled - not sure if I missed something in the second level feature text). My other nitpick is that it sounds like the lifeshaper can only alter others with the Alter Self spell, which is a bummer because I would want my PC lifeshaper to go beast mode alongside their monster.

----------


## Damon_Tor

> This class rocks - I like the concepts presented here a lot. The monster packs a big punch out of the gate, though, especially as a spellcaster's companion (unless you need to use a spell slot to keep the monster controlled - not sure if I missed something in the second level feature text). My other nitpick is that it sounds like the lifeshaper can only alter others with the Alter Self spell, which is a bummer because I would want my PC lifeshaper to go beast mode alongside their monster.


Thanks!

I tweaked the wording on the special way to cast alter self, hopefully it's clearer now that it can still be cast in the normal way.

As for the monster's strength, it's intended to be similar in strength out of the box as other similar features, like those from the wildfire druid, the battle smith artificer, and the beastmaster ranger. It pulls ahead once you get to mutate it (though that requires you feed it spell slots) but I don't think there's much to object to before 6th level.

----------


## not_a_fish

> As for the monster's strength, it's intended to be similar in strength out of the box as other similar features, like those from the wildfire druid, the battle smith artificer, and the beastmaster ranger. It pulls ahead once you get to mutate it (though that requires you feed it spell slots) but I don't think there's much to object to before 6th level.


I thought the beast master, chainlock, etc needed to use an action (rather than a bonus action) to command an attack at the early levels, though?

----------


## Damon_Tor

> I thought the beast master, chainlock, etc needed to use an action (rather than a bonus action) to command an attack at the early levels, though?


Not lately, no. Battlesmith and Wildfire Druid both command their pets as bonus actions, and the Beastmaster was updated with "optional features" that let them do the same in Tasha's, while chainlocks got an invocation that lets them do it as a bonus action as well. All at level 2 or 3 as soon as the features are selected

----------


## animorte

> Not lately, no. Battlesmith and Wildfire Druid both command their pets as bonus actions, and the Beastmaster was updated with "optional features" that let them do the same in Tasha's, while chainlocks got an invocation that lets them do it as a bonus action as well. All at level 2 or 3 as soon as the features are selected


Can confirm, as Ive been looking through this same information to balance my summon/construction/mount/thing/(havent decided yet).

----------


## not_a_fish

I am behind the times, I guess! 

I probably ought to look at the Tasha's material harder, myself...

----------


## Psyche

Old Harry, the ranger doesn't get the indominable or second wind features.

----------


## nickl_2000

> I am behind the times, I guess! 
> 
> I probably ought to look at the Tasha's material harder, myself...


Tasha's material is a really, really good addition to the game.  You may not like all of it, but there are some quality features worth adding onto your table.

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## Psyche

What is that spell that is like 4th level mirage arcane?

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> Old Harry, the ranger doesn't get the indominable or second wind features.


In fact that's a version as a fighter subclass ^^

----------


## MutantDragon

> What is that spell that is like 4th level mirage arcane?


Hallucinatory Terrain.

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## sengmeng

My Way of the Sumo is barebones ready. I might add more weight gain lol

----------


## Damon_Tor

> My Way of the Sumo is barebones ready. I might add more weight gain lol


My concern would be that Monk is already MAD and then this subclass requires grapples and/or shoves to function appropriately, which means you need str as well. If this is meant to be a strength-instead-of-dex monk, it's going to need the damage resistance feature to come earlier to compensate for the lost AC.

----------


## sengmeng

> My concern would be that Monk is already MAD and then this subclass requires grapples and/or shoves to function appropriately, which means you need str as well. If this is meant to be a strength-instead-of-dex monk, it's going to need the damage resistance feature to come earlier to compensate for the lost AC.


It's not supposed to be strength-instead-of-dex, but more like if-you-have-room-in-your-build-to-put-a-12-in-strength-then-do-that. The way "athlete" is worded is that if you're also proficient, you add the bonus to your proficiency bonus, and if you snagged expertise somehow, you'll actually add triple your proficiency bonus. So it was meant to make strength nice if you can get it, but not absolutely necessary.

----------


## Psyche

Would a class about the moon fit the theme?

----------


## animorte

> Would a class about the moon fit the theme?


I love the moon so I want to see what you have anyway.

Maybe if it's something about how the phases can greatly increase the tide. The waxing and waning of the moon equally control the flow of blood in our veins and raises the pinnacle of what we're capable of in study of this specific subclass. The power in my blood overflows and I must release the magic within or else I might implode. It makes me think about Avatar: The Last Airbender and how all Waterbenders are significantly empowered by the full moon.

Or perhaps the rising and setting of the moon. Anything to do with it being dark automatically empowers your gifts and when it sets to bring about a new day (so maybe the end of a long rest), you are provided some kind of protection in order to survive until the next rotation (you know, until the next night). Or include the sun and moon altogether, where they each provide different abilities.

----------


## not_a_fish

The Heavy is ready for critique! (note: overthought it and made some edits this afternoon after I posted this. 2nd note: done editing for real this time)

One thing I'm not sure about is whether there are fixed rules for oversized weapons in any of the newer books or published adventures, or if big weapon stats are confined to monster stat blocks.

I enjoyed writing this subclass because I thought about a lot of different potential character concepts while drafting.  My initial inspirations were video game tanks and JRPG protagonists, but along the way I also realized that this could also be a good frame for someone who wants to be a halfling with a claymore or a longbow/daikyu specialist (of any size).

----------


## Old Harry MTX

Ok, guys, the Kaiju Tamer has reached the alpha stage!

It is not a particularly original subclass, but I have tried to give it a distinctive flavor, and to combine it with some gameplay options that I hope you'll find interesting.

I also tried to work on the action economy, hoping to have found a good compromise. I also add several _NOTE_s to explains some design choices.

In general, at the moment it is a rather beefy subclass, both in terms of the theme of the contest, and the level of power, which certainly stands on the higher tiers.

Feel free to peach!

(Since the ranger already has the Beastmaster, I have also written a variant as a fighter subclass which may be more original, although I like it less. Based on your feedback I will choose which one to bring until the end of the contest.)

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## Damon_Tor

> Ok, guys, the Kaiju Tamer has reached the alpha stage!
> 
> It is not a particularly original subclass, but I have tried to give it a distinctive flavor, and to combine it with some gameplay options that I hope you'll find interesting.
> 
> I also tried to work on the action economy, hoping to have found a good compromise. I also add several _NOTE_s to explains some design choices.
> 
> In general, at the moment it is a rather beefy subclass, both in terms of the theme of the contest, and the level of power, which certainly stands on the higher tiers.
> 
> Feel free to peach!
> ...


I like it. 

The CR is very high: the permanent spell-slot allocation as a balance point is a great solution (similar to the "investiture" I used in my wizard subclass) but I'm not sure it goes far enough. Giving a PC an all-day summon stronger than a creature a Moon Druid can turn into is probably going too far. I think if you start with a CR of 1/4 the ranger's level then allow for an upgrade by +1 CR or so when you add the 11th level bonus features it should work okay. If your target is CR 6 at 20th level you match the moon druid's peak without going past it. And you can increase a creature's SIZE without touching their CR as long as nothing changes but the amount of space they take up and maybe their reach.

I'm not sure the bonus spells do much for you. You could drop the nautical flavor entirely and allow the player to decide if their kaiju comes from the sea, the hollow earth, a hidden island, outer space, a volcano, or whatever else.

The ranger is the better choice compared to the fighter. If you slightly retooled this as a more generalized beastmaster rework I think it would probably work great.

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## animorte

I have expanded the subclass collection from my recent homebrew base class entry, The Cleaner.
_It desperately needs its own update, but that's a different topic for a different day._  :Small Big Grin: 

If you happened to be a cleaner, but wanted to step away from the lower income, less exciting careers, I've got the solution for you. With the Field Technician, you learn how to repair and operate some big equipment. It can also be programmed to move and attack of its own accord, not to mention some awesome area effects that will change the battlefield!



Anyway, my subclass is ready to be critiqued folks (definitely needs it  :Small Tongue: )! I greatly appreciate it ahead of time and I will have my reviews prepared within the next few days.

*Just to be clear, it's this one:* Field Technician.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

Thankyou for your feedback!




> The CR is very high: the permanent spell-slot allocation as a balance point is a great solution (similar to the "investiture" I used in my wizard subclass) but I'm not sure it goes far enough. Giving a PC an all-day summon stronger than a creature a Moon Druid can turn into is probably going too far. I think if you start with a CR of 1/4 the ranger's level then allow for an upgrade by +1 CR or so when you add the 11th level bonus features it should work okay. If your target is CR 6 at 20th level you match the moon druid's peak without going past it.


Yes, the CR is the thing concerns me the most. I decided to go up to CR 8 because the polymorph spell allows an 8th level character to transform into a CR 8 tyrannosaurus (the beast with the highest CR in the PHB), so I assumed that a level 20 character could somehow summon a creature of equal power, not to mention that I consider the ability to summon a tyrannosaurus a mandatory target for a class called "Kaiju Tamer". Also, a higher CR would also add more room to apply the effects of the "Release the Kraken Cryptid" feature.

But yes, as it is now, this subclass is way too strong when compared to a Moon Druid (not to mention when compared to a Beastmaster Ranger). However I want to try other solutions before (probably inevitably) reducing the CR (E.G. removing or halving the proficiency bonus to AC, working on a different action economy, adding a spell slots cost to special actions...).




> And you can increase a creature's SIZE without touching their CR as long as nothing changes but the amount of space they take up and maybe their reach.


This is an interesting solution, but it would almost be just flavor.




> I'm not sure the bonus spells do much for you. You could drop the nautical flavor entirely and allow the player to decide if their kaiju comes from the sea, the hollow earth, a hidden island, outer space, a volcano, or whatever else.


I will definitely consider this, even if I find this flavor very thematic, since I consider mythological monsters such as krakens, scyllas, charybdis, hydras, aspidochelones or leviathans as proto-kaiju. XD

However, it would be interesting to create different themes, finding for each a pro and a con, such as the amphibious trait and the low walking speed of the maritime one.




> The ranger is the better choice compared to the fighter. If you slightly retooled this as a more generalized beastmaster rework I think it would probably work great.


I'll do my best!

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## not_a_fish

As with the base Cleaner class, animorte, I am enjoying the ideas that pop into my head with the Field Technician. I really like the programmable effects idea with the P.I.T. - this fits in well with the idea of a technician tinkering with their vehicle or adding a different attachment to their tractor.  The 10th and 14th-level features are nice upgrades to the focus of the class, too.

I am confused by the idea of the P.I.T. being an independently mobile being right from the start, mostly because I don't know what a P.I.T. is in my game's universe. I don't have an issue with it - it just is a level of worldbuilding in the class that I wasn't prepared for, as the class description put me in mind of a vehicle user like a groundskeeper or construction worker, rather than a handiman with a semi-independent automaton. Similarly, the 6th-level Observation feature makes me wonder why the technician needs remote sensing capabilities in their line of work.

Also, while I enjoy the theming of the Safety First feature, I do wonder if the AC bonus might be better folded into the bonus proficiencies as proficiency with either medium or heavy armor.

----------


## animorte

> As with the base Cleaner class, animorte, I am enjoying the ideas that pop into my head with the Field Technician. I really like the programmable effects idea with the P.I.T. - this fits in well with the idea of a technician tinkering with their vehicle or adding a different attachment to their tractor.  The 10th and 14th-level features are nice upgrades to the focus of the class, too.


I appreciate the kind words. It's always a blessing to know that my concepts have been a form of inspiration to somebody. I was proud of this concept and I see that I conveyed it well enough.




> I am confused by the idea of the P.I.T. being an independently mobile being right from the start, mostly because I don't know what a P.I.T. is in my game's universe. I don't have an issue with it - it just is a level of worldbuilding in the class that I wasn't prepared for, as the class description put me in mind of a vehicle user like a groundskeeper or construction worker, rather than a handiman with a semi-independent automaton. Similarly, the 6th-level Observation feature makes me wonder why the technician needs remote sensing capabilities in their line of work.


I'm actually quite glad you mentioned this. I was struggling with the idea of *why* and *how* the P.I.T. is able to function of its own accord. At some point I decided that in order for it to be worthy of a stat block, it would likely need some form of autonomous capability. I feel like it very clearly stands as a middle ground between the Artillerist and the Battle Smith, especially as I pulled from both subclasses as well as Beast Master, Echo Knight, Pact of the Chain, and the _find familiar_ spell.

I will work on the flavor text with the hope of validating its purpose and establishing a legitimate place in your average adventuring world.




> Also, while I enjoy the theming of the Safety First feature, I do wonder if the AC bonus might be better folded into the bonus proficiencies as proficiency with either medium or heavy armor.


I debated this as well, but honestly I tried to get fancy and creative.  :Small Tongue:  To be fair, there's really no reason to invent a round-about method for ultimately the same effect as a pre-existing format. Certainly going to update. Thanks a lot!

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## BerzerkerUnit

Legend Stalker Rogue is up. 

I have wanted to experiment with the sacrifice sneak damage for conditions for a while. I had a bad luck archetype that could forego rolling their sneak dice as damage to leave them on a creature as a penalty, but it was either too weak or too strong and I couldnt tune it to where I wanted it. 

With this, I assume a roll of 3 per die, and multiply that by half the level I want the effect to be a staple. But this means you can occasionally pull off much harsher crippling strikes at lower levels. 

Do I think the subclass could work better narratively as an interrogator if you replace the siege weapons at 6th with a feature to make Iron Bands that grants you advantage on checks against Restrained creatures? Yes, but that is awfully dark compared to Godzilla Hunter.

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## animorte

I just realized the link in the the submission thread does not work in leading to this chat thread.

This one should work: Subclass Contest Discussion Thread

----------


## animorte

And my analysis for these wonderful entries is in!

*Spoiler: Kaiju Trainer*
Show

I appreciate how you maintain the aquatic theme very well as this subclass develops through leveling.

You are able to return your beastie to life with a spell slot. Perhaps provide an additional benefit to using higher level spell slots. Maybe HP = level of spell slot x Ranger level.

I would also make it clear that the maximum CR of your beastie cannot exceed the CR listed in your table, including the additional traits. I like these traits and that might keep it balanced, I think.


*Spoiler: Field Technician*
Show

You...

You think you're real clever, stealing my idea.

Let's take this outside.  :Small Mad: 


*Spoiler: The Heavy*
Show

I think this is a nicely balanced subclass that achieves the goal without being complex. Step aside Champion!

I like that it continues to get more survivable in creative ways.

One note I have is about Steady. I like what it does, but needing Concentration feels kind of like a trap. I know you'll have a high Con with this subclass, but being in the fray does not fare well for being able to maintain this buff. I would instead suggest the loss of your reaction until the start of your next turn. In some way this represents the idea that you're physically steadying yourself (sort of digging your feet in and taking a stance) in order to improve your offense AND defense (yes, I think including a small bonus to AC or something of this nature would be fair).


*Spoiler: School of Lifeshaping*
Show

Your references are very nicely incorporated, very amusing indeed! This immediately made me think of the following:



Defensive Creation is valuable and STRONK, but your monstrosity technically can't get between you and a melee assailant, so it's kinda fine.

Investing is very unique and I would like to see something like this incorporated into published material. At first I thought it was completely broken (not requiring concentration and immediate permanency), but not being able to regain that spell slot back was an excellent idea for balance.

However, reading through again revealed that there is no limit to how many spells you can have invested in your Monstrosity. That is terrifying. I'm looking at a few things like _gift of alacrity, enlarge,_ and _dragon's breath._ All of them are balanced by their duration. But this is permanent, and that's only 4 slots, none above 2nd-level. Not to mention offspring getting ALL the benefits. Can we have a limit?  :Small Tongue: 


*Spoiler: Path of the Tarrasque*
Show

Basically condensing the Tarrasque statblock into a Barbarian subclass is a neat idea. You've done a good job at balancing it out, but it might be a bit weak.

I think adding Blindsight while raging right from level 3 would work just fine. Each of these early bonuses are situational enough that it certainly won't break anything.

Intimidating Presence is sweet, but needing to use your action every turn kind of takes you out of the fight. You could fear one bad guy and keep throwing down with others if you move the additional turns to bonus action for extension instead.

Also, maybe increase reach +5 feet to accompany the increased size in your capstone.


*Spoiler: School of Topology*
Show

Overflow is a really cool concept that is a sort of parallel to meta-magic, but still entirely different. A nice job at remembering to consistently account for Overflow and Arcane Expansion working only with each other and nothing else, great balance awareness. I don't know that providing advantage to the saving throws is necessary though.

It took a bit of re-reading, but that capstone is nuts. I love it. It reminded me of the wizard's fire from The Sword of Truth series in which a wizard would have no other choice but to kamikaze into a maximized explosion. My only concern with it is how rarely it will likely be relevant, seeing as conserving spell slots for where-needed-most can often be an active concern.


*Spoiler: Legend Stalker*
Show

I absolutely love being able to trade your bonus to hit and damage for increasing the DC of Crippling Strike. This does an excellent job of focusing for the sake of your effect. Though I'm not exactly sure what the numbers are. Is that how much damage is being reduced? It gets to be an awful lot for some effects, especially considering the static amount that you may not even roll to begin with.

Instead of reducing the Sneak Attack damage by numbers, maybe you can instead remove a certain number of damage die:
Tier one effects remove 1 damage die (1d6).Tier two effects remove 2 damage die (2d6).Tier three effects remove 3 damage die (3d6).Tier four effects remove 4 damage die (4d6).
Effectively very similar numbers. Not that you need to do it this way, it just looks a lot more clear to me.

The Arbalest is really cool, and being able to accept a level of exhaustion to force a fail is just fantastic.


*Spoiler: Way of the Sumo*
Show

This is really funny to me, imagining a sumo wrestler sprinting faster than anybody else you know. But then it uses that speed to your advantage by trading off for different effects. Nicely done.

I appreciate how accurate the abilities feel for your theme and it looks nicely balanced, but I would make it a point to throw in some flavor text. Your subclass wants to tell me a story.


*Spoiler: Cosmic Lord*
Show

You and your poetry. I hope you keep implementing that in your concepts. I also enjoy writing poems and you've inspired me to maybe include some of that in the future.

I actually really like Shield of Night, coming across as the moon descending its protective aura of light around you. With the other features so far, it looks like a very survivable Sorcerer subclass. Looking forward to the rest.


I hope everybody enjoys this as much as I do.

----------


## Psyche

I am asking for an extension

----------


## MutantDragon

> *Spoiler: Path of the Tarrasque*
> Show
> 
> Basically condensing the Tarrasque statblock into a Barbarian subclass is a neat idea. You've done a good job at balancing it out, but it might be a bit weak.
> 
> I think adding Blindsight while raging right from level 3 would work just fine. Each of these early bonuses are situational enough that it certainly won't break anything.
> 
> Intimidating Presence is sweet, but needing to use your action every turn kind of takes you out of the fight. You could fear one bad guy and keep throwing down with others if you move the additional turns to bonus action for extension instead.
> 
> Also, maybe increase reach +5 feet to accompany the increased size in your capstone.


Thanks for the ideas. The Intimidating presence I just ripped straight from Berserker, but you are right that it could use some buffing. Taking my design cues from a subclass tat gives you exhaustion for doing the same thing as a 1st level war cleric probably wasn't the best idea.  :Small Wink:  I do like the other ideas you gave me, too. I'll have to do some minor tweaking, and I think I'm going to incorporate some of this in there. Thanks.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

Thankyou for your feedback! I also realized that we are very close to the end of the contest, I hope to be able to make the last fixes and take a look at the other entries as well.




> I appreciate how you maintain the aquatic theme very well as this subclass develops through leveling.


Thankyou so much! In the end I decided to keep it, it adds some boundaries but i like it ^^




> You are able to return your beastie to life with a spell slot. Perhaps provide an additional benefit to using higher level spell slots. Maybe HP = level of spell slot x Ranger level.


It makes perfectly sense.




> I would also make it clear that the maximum CR of your beastie cannot exceed the CR listed in your table, including the additional traits. I like these traits and that might keep it balanced, I think.


Yes, maybe it's not clear enough.

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## BerzerkerUnit

> And my analysis for these wonderful entries is in!
> 
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: Legend Stalker*
> Show
> 
> I absolutely love being able to trade your bonus to hit and damage for increasing the DC of Crippling Strike. This does an excellent job of focusing for the sake of your effect. Though I'm not exactly sure what the numbers are. Is that how much damage is being reduced? It gets to be an awful lot for some effects, especially considering the static amount that you may not even roll to begin with.
> 
> ...


I think we do!

Thank you so much for your feedback!  I had toyed with the idea of doing -X dice, but that has a couple of issues.  I'll try and keep the explanation tight:
Rogue combat is about rolling a handful of dice.  By level 5 if you hit (likely in most cases) you're rolling 4 dice, and it only goes up from there.  That's fun!  Reducing the number of the dice (while definitely an elegant solution) is fundamentally less of that fun.  

While I don't want to bog combat down, gods know rogues are one of the breeziest classes in that respect, I want some tactical choices.  Damage solves problems  but this way the rogue gets to roll lots of dice and if the dice go their way, they might be able to pull a high level nerf out.  But they are gambling that damage to do so.  Risk v reward will vary by person.  Do you like to get the killing blow, or would you have more fun knocking it prone so the barbarian can behead it?

To get those costs I assumed 3 was the average roll on a d6 SA die.  I multiplied by the # of dice a rogue would have at the level I think the option is okay for use every turn (when accounting for the saves required which were all Con or Str, typically the 2 best for enemies).

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## animorte

> To get those costs I assumed 3 was the average roll on a d6 SA die.  I multiplied by the # of dice a rogue would have at the level I think the option is okay for use every turn


Interesting thought process. I can dig it. _(Though I think its technically 3.5 average. Which is not easier to calculate, so eh.)_

So then, might it be worth mentioning a certain level prerequisite for some of those abilities? Or alternatively (keeping it precisely the way it is), the rare chance a 7th level Rogue rolls max damage SA (4d6 = 24), they automatically have the chance to Paralyze. _(It merely gets easier to hit with higher levels.)_

Yeah, I like that. Sick. Keep it.

Thanks for the explanation!  :Small Big Grin:

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## Ilerien

> I am asking for an extension


I second this motion. I have an unusual idea, just haven't had time to implement it yet.

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## animorte

1. 


> I am asking for an extension


2.(?) 


> Thankyou for your feedback! I also realized that we are very close to the end of the contest, I hope to be able to make the last fixes and take a look at the other entries as well.


3.


> I second this motion. I have an unusual idea, just haven't had time to implement it yet.


Looks like an extension to me

----------


## Damon_Tor

> Your references are very nicely incorporated, very amusing indeed! This immediately made me think of the following:
> 
> 
> 
> Defensive Creation is valuable and STRONK, but your monstrosity technically can't get between you and a melee assailant, so it's kinda fine.
> 
> Investing is very unique and I would like to see something like this incorporated into published material. At first I thought it was completely broken (not requiring concentration and immediate permanency), but not being able to regain that spell slot back was an excellent idea for balance.
> 
> However, reading through again revealed that there is no limit to how many spells you can have invested in your Monstrosity. That is terrifying. I'm looking at a few things like _gift of alacrity, enlarge,_ and _dragon's breath._ All of them are balanced by their duration. But this is permanent, and that's only 4 slots, none above 2nd-level. Not to mention offspring getting ALL the benefits. Can we have a limit?


A limit is probably a good idea in retrospect. My inclination would be to limit the total spell slot levels rather than just the number of spells, so that Longstrider doesn't cost the same as Haste. A note though, gift of alacrity wouldn't actually do anything for the monster under normal circumstances, because it uses your initiative.

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## animorte

> A limit is probably a good idea in retrospect. My inclination would be to limit the total spell slot levels rather than just the number of spells, so that Longstrider doesn't cost the same as Haste. A note though, gift of alacrity wouldn't actually do anything for the monster under normal circumstances, because it uses your initiative.


Ah yeah thats right. Total spell levels and different costs is a great idea, I think.

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## Damon_Tor

> Ah yeah thats right. Total spell levels and different costs is a great idea, I think.


Went ahead and made that change. The limit is equal to your wizard level, so at level 6 you could invest a first level spell, a second level spell, and a third level spell and be at your limit, but at 12th level you'd have twice as many.

Also, this limit is on the total slots you can invest across all purposes, including the slots you need to invest to create the offspring.

----------


## not_a_fish

*Spoiler: The Heavy*
Show

I think this is a nicely balanced subclass that achieves the goal without being complex. Step aside Champion!

I like that it continues to get more survivable in creative ways.

One note I have is about Steady. I like what it does, but needing Concentration feels kind of like a trap. I know you'll have a high Con with this subclass, but being in the fray does not fare well for being able to maintain this buff. I would instead suggest the loss of your reaction until the start of your next turn. In some way this represents the idea that you're physically steadying yourself (sort of digging your feet in and taking a stance) in order to improve your offense AND defense (yes, I think including a small bonus to AC or something of this nature would be fair).


Thanks for the review!  Regarding Steady, I actually don't want to make it defensive, both because I have trouble imagining how one would go about focusing on both attack and defense with an unwieldy weapon and because one of my goals with the subclass was to make it an attractive target for enemy attacks that might otherwise be aimed at squishier partymembers without resorting to spell-like effects like compelled duel. The Heavy in my mind, is better as a team player (tanking damage and forcing engagements) rather than a solo threat (although things like Second Wind ought to give them a fair amount of self-sustain).

Concentration might be a step too far, admittedly. Especially since it really only comes into play for allowing reaction attacks.

----------


## animorte

> Thanks for the review!  Regarding Steady, I actually don't want to make it defensive, both because I have trouble imagining how one would go about focusing on both attack and defense with an unwieldy weapon and because one of my goals with the subclass was to make it an attractive target for enemy attacks that might otherwise be aimed at squishier partymembers without resorting to spell-like effects like compelled duel. The Heavy in my mind, is better as a team player (tanking damage and forcing engagements) rather than a solo threat (although things like Second Wind ought to give them a fair amount of self-sustain).
> 
> Concentration might be a step too far, admittedly. Especially since it really only comes into play for allowing reaction attacks.


Thats fair and Im fully on board with what youve said, especially considering (I mentioned myself) that The Heavy is quite survivable already.

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## Old Harry MTX

Sorry but so the contest has been extended? Until?

----------


## animorte

> Sorry but so the contest has been extended? Until?


It looks like the contest deadline has been extended until *November 2nd.*

----------


## animorte

Hey everybody! Heres the voting thread so we can all get the votes in!  :Small Big Grin:

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## Old Harry MTX

Oh no! It is already the second "i read it in a book once" contest in which I want to make a spiderman-inspired subclass and I am anticipated by someone else! XD

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> Oh no! It is already the second "i read it in a book once" contest in which I want to make a spiderman-inspired subclass and I am anticipated by someone else! XD


Do it!  Dueling Spider-Mans!

----------


## animorte

> Oh no! It is already the second "i read it in a book once" contest in which I want to make a spiderman-inspired subclass and I am anticipated by someone else! XD





> Do it!  Dueling Spider-Mans!


I mean, the multiverse exists for a reason!

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## MutantDragon

...Is it weird I was also considering a Spider-Man subclass? Because that seems weird. Is it weird?

----------


## animorte

> I think i can make it fun and interesting, and it fills a needed niche.


To be fair, literally everything I have ever seen you make is fun, interesting, and fills a needed niche.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

@MutantDragon

I saw the Klyntar Barbarian, not bad at all.

I think the 14th level feature should be something a little more dramatic and active, maybe some kind of 10ft Restraining Aura while raging as the symbiote goes wild.  

You may also want to clarify whether you need to concentrate on Web while raging.  As is you might be able to cast it multiple times and have huge zones of web up.

----------


## MutantDragon

> @MutantDragon
> 
> I saw the Klyntar Barbarian, not bad at all.
> 
> I think the 14th level feature should be something a little more dramatic and active, maybe some kind of 10ft Restraining Aura while raging as the symbiote goes wild.  
> 
> You may also want to clarify whether you need to concentrate on Web while raging.  As is you might be able to cast it multiple times and have huge zones of web up.


Thanks. I'll definitely take these ideas into consideration. I appreciate it and wish you luck in the contest.

----------


## MutantDragon

@BerzerkerUnit

I've taken another look at the Webslinging Wall-Crawler and I have some thoughts.

On the web slinging ability, I might consider allowing a saving throw. I would also like to see some specification on what "to your hand" means. Are they now held in your hand? Just within melee range? Etc. Also, are you physically grappling or are you grappling via webs? Some additional clarification on this would work wonders.
On Superior Spider Gifts, I'd like to see more done with the Strength boost. Specifically, since Rogues don't do much with Strength, allowing them to use Dexterity for certain Strength things could work. That or a flat bonus to Strength. Essentially just anything to make them truly feel like they have superhuman strength. I'm also not a huge fan of features that reference another class's features, especially when the ones being referenced aren't in the core rules. A cleaner way of handling it might be to just give them blindsight and specify that it stacks with pre-existing blindsight. The part about not being able to be surprised overlaps a bit with the Alert feat, but I'm not too worried about that. Maybe give them an extra benefit if they already can't be surprised, like adding their proficiency bonus to initiative?

Other than that, I really like the way you've implemented everything, and I like the direction you're going on those things too. You've really gotten some interesting ideas and unique takes I would never have thought of. Good luck on the contest.

----------


## Damon_Tor

I think what's fun about barbarian subclasses is how the daily resource expense of the rage use lets you push the power level of the features. I understand the impulse to give barbarians non-rage features, but if that happens at the expense of the barbarian's unique design space I think that's a mistake. At a certain point you're better off making a fighter subclass instead if rage doesn't really factor into your design.

----------


## MutantDragon

> I think what's fun about barbarian subclasses is how the daily resource expense of the rage use lets you push the power level of the features. I understand the impulse to give barbarians non-rage features, but if that happens at the expense of the barbarian's unique design space I think that's a mistake. At a certain point you're better off making a fighter subclass instead if rage doesn't really factor into your design.


Definitely true. On the other hand, balancing that against options that work regardless of current rage status helps keep things engaging throughout play and is somewhat necessary for certain concepts. I'm still tweaking it, so I might make my subclass a bit more rage centric. It is certainly something worth thinking about. Thanks!

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> Thanks. I'll definitely take these ideas into consideration. I appreciate it and wish you luck in the contest.


Thanks, you too!

One more, the bit about being able to surprise creatures, I think a more broadly applicable way to do it might be "When you take the Hide action you can be hidden even from creatures with special senses such as blindsight and tremorsense."

I think that way you still need cover or concealment, but a creature needs a direct LOS to spot you.  I think the number of creatures that can't be surprised can be counted on one hand, while the number of creeps with those two senses that make it almost impossible to hide from them are manifold.

Good luck again!

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> @BerzerkerUnit
> 
> I've taken another look at the Webslinging Wall-Crawler and I have some thoughts.
> 
> On the web slinging ability, I might consider allowing a saving throw. I would also like to see some specification on what "to your hand" means. Are they now held in your hand? Just within melee range? Etc. Also, are you physically grappling or are you grappling via webs? Some additional clarification on this would work wonders.
> On Superior Spider Gifts, I'd like to see more done with the Strength boost. Specifically, since Rogues don't do much with Strength, allowing them to use Dexterity for certain Strength things could work. That or a flat bonus to Strength. Essentially just anything to make them truly feel like they have superhuman strength. I'm also not a huge fan of features that reference another class's features, especially when the ones being referenced aren't in the core rules. A cleaner way of handling it might be to just give them blindsight and specify that it stacks with pre-existing blindsight. The part about not being able to be surprised overlaps a bit with the Alert feat, but I'm not too worried about that. Maybe give them an extra benefit if they already can't be surprised, like adding their proficiency bonus to initiative?
> 
> Other than that, I really like the way you've implemented everything, and I like the direction you're going on those things too. You've really gotten some interesting ideas and unique takes I would never have thought of. Good luck on the contest.


Thank you so much for the feedback!

For the Webslinging, it's definitely intended to be a 30ft pull that ends the target grappled.  I thought I'd written it as a pretty tight if/then for when they're pulled to your hand they're grappled.  As for "pulling something to your hand" I think the most reasonable conclusion for ruling it would be "if the hand is free, then you're holding the object, if the hand is full, it then ends the movement in the nearest space."  I can't think of too many interpretations that go beyond that without being fairly malicious in their intent.  But I'll give it another look.

Edits: I tightened up the language for Web-Sling to require a free hand which I feel clarifies intent without narrowing application overmuch.  

I'm keeping blindfighting explicitly because it's a readily understood existing rule (the same reason I made it "cast Web" instead of creating a nearly identical weblike application of Web-Slinging.  I can choose elegance when it suits).

Any other bonus to Superior Spider Strength would just feel like gilding a lily as this level's feature is already a two-fer that is actually 4 discrete features.  a stacking exploration buff (all that carry capacity on a Bugbear or Goliath?), a buff to the Web-Sling feature, a fighting style, and can't be surprised, which (using current 1D&D rules) is actually a full party defense since enemies won't be able to use surprise to get advantage on initiative. That said, I feel they're all niche enough bonuses that I don't mind handing them all out at once.

----------


## MutantDragon

> Thank you so much for the feedback!
> 
> For the Webslinging, it's definitely intended to be a 30ft pull that ends the target grappled.  I thought I'd written it as a pretty tight if/then for when they're pulled to your hand they're grappled.  As for "pulling something to your hand" I think the most reasonable conclusion for ruling it would be "if the hand is free, then you're holding the object, if the hand is full, it then ends the movement in the nearest space."  I can't think of too many interpretations that go beyond that without being fairly malicious in their intent.  But I'll give it another look.
> 
> Edits: I tightened up the language for Web-Sling to require a free hand which I feel clarifies intent without narrowing application overmuch.  
> 
> I'm keeping blindfighting explicitly because it's a readily understood existing rule (the same reason I made it "cast Web" instead of creating a nearly identical weblike application of Web-Slinging.  I can choose elegance when it suits).
> 
> Any other bonus to Superior Spider Strength would just feel like gilding a lily as this level's feature is already a two-fer that is actually 4 discrete features.  a stacking exploration buff (all that carry capacity on a Bugbear or Goliath?), a buff to the Web-Sling feature, a fighting style, and can't be surprised, which (using current 1D&D rules) is actually a full party defense since enemies won't be able to use surprise to get advantage on initiative. That said, I feel they're all niche enough bonuses that I don't mind handing them all out at once.


Fair enough. Youre right that the language on web-slinging was fairly clear on the intent, I just feel that playing devils advocate on occasion can help with finding slight ambiguity between what you clearly mean and what you literally say so you can nip that in the bud early. I like your reasoning on the other parts, too.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> I think what's fun about barbarian subclasses is how the daily resource expense of the rage use lets you push the power level of the features. I understand the impulse to give barbarians non-rage features, but if that happens at the expense of the barbarian's unique design space I think that's a mistake. At a certain point you're better off making a fighter subclass instead if rage doesn't really factor into your design.


I appreciate this sentiment but I think the majority of the player base (at least those represented by folks that use social media to discuss D&D) shares a pretty well supported opinion that time has shown this is bad design.  

Most of the D&D punditry considers Barbarian 10-20 a waste of levels better spent Multiclassing explicitly because Rage eats so much of that design budget that when you aren't raging (whether out of uses or conserving uses for a tougher fight) you're just playing a subpar fighter.  Letting Rage be what it is (an awesome resource in its own right and worth doing whenever you can) and giving the barb more to do when not raging is generally going to lead to a better Player experience.  

At least it would for me, and seemingly the majority of talking heads that make their career out of D&D at this time.

----------


## animorte

> I just feel that playing devils advocate on occasion can help with finding slight ambiguity between what you clearly mean and what you literally say so you can nip that in the bud early.


I probably do this waaay too much. Its nice that somebody else takes over for a minute.  :Small Tongue: 

Ill see about getting an entry in myself (provided life allows) and some devils advocate reviews. Ive got some days off coming up.

_I was looking forward to this theme so much that I caught myself in paralysis trying to figure out which idea I like most._

----------


## MutantDragon

> I probably do this waaay too much. Its nice that somebody else takes over for a minute. 
> 
> Ill see about getting an entry in myself (provided life allows) and some devils advocate reviews. Ive got some days off coming up.
> 
> _I was looking forward to this theme so much that I caught myself in paralysis trying to figure out which idea I like most._


It's a thankless task, but someone has to do it.  :Small Wink:  I look forward to seeing what you come up with! And I will gladly advocate for the devil when he attempts to break your design!  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## MutantDragon

@Old Harry MTX

I really like the direction your subclass is going. It seems to be chock full of Spider-Man goodies and has some nice twists to better integrate it into a fantasy setting. I look forward to seeing the completed mechanics.

----------


## animorte

> It's a thankless task, but someone has to do it.  I look forward to seeing what you come up with! And I will gladly advocate for the devil when he attempts to break your design!


I expect nothing different.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> @Old Harry MTX
> 
> I really like the direction your subclass is going. It seems to be chock full of Spider-Man goodies and has some nice twists to better integrate it into a fantasy setting. I look forward to seeing the completed mechanics.


Thankyou! Honestly, i have a lot of ideas, none of them are original but all tied toghether should make something interesting. Also, i need to test it, but the ability to choose and upgrade a limited number of base features should be a simple but original mechanic I like to explore.

----------


## not_a_fish

I have to say I'm very tempted to throw out my first idea (Barbarian based on Conan) in favor of another Spider-subclass... How many Spider-Man is too much Spider-Man?

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> I have to say I'm very tempted to throw out my first idea (Barbarian based on Conan) in favor of another Spider-subclass... How many Spider-Man is too much Spider-Man?


Never enough, in the spider-verse!

----------


## MutantDragon

> I have to say I'm very tempted to throw out my first idea (Barbarian based on Conan) in favor of another Spider-subclass... How many Spider-Man is too much Spider-Man?


Too much Spider-Man?! I must have misread that! There's no such thing as too much Spider-Man!

----------


## sengmeng

Let's just rename the theme *Into the Spiderverse*

----------


## Crim the Cold

Path of Bul-Kathos is up. Probably needs some fine tuning. I dont like the wording of Whirlwind Attack and I'm considering swapping Dual Wield and Berserk. Any feedback would be appreciated.

----------


## Damon_Tor

I'm tempted to post an artificer subclass that flies around on a mechanical flying platform and throws explosives at people. Green coloration and goblinoid racial synergy totally optional.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

I'm already working on my Spiderman, but since i'm playing GoW Ragnarok right now, I was thinking that if someone need an idea to develop, Kratos the Ghost of Sparta would be a nice Barbarian one!

----------


## animorte

> Let's just rename the theme *Into the Spiderverse*


Truth. We could do any number of villains as well. Speaking of which:



> I'm tempted to post an artificer subclass that flies around on a mechanical flying platform and throws explosives at people. Green coloration and goblinoid racial synergy totally optional.


Haha, this legitimately made me laugh. I was honestly considering an Artificer zooming around in his mechanical arms.




> Path of Bul-Kathos is up. Probably needs some fine tuning. I dont like the wording of Whirlwind Attack and I'm considering swapping Dual Wield and Berserk. Any feedback would be appreciated.


Will definitely try to get all my reviews in for everybody sometime around the end of the week.




> I'm already working on my Spiderman, but since i'm playing GoW Ragnarok right now, I was thinking that if someone need an idea to develop, Kratos the Ghost of Sparta would be a nice Barbarian one!


Im so very tempted. I havent had the pleasure of playing the new one, but I loved the 2018 GoW.

Just sharing some of this here
*Spoiler: Current thoughts*
Show

I have too many ideas and analysis paralysis may well prevent me from accomplishing much of anything this time around. Well see

Childrens author: Warlock patron (basically Dr. Seuss) in which different popular characters of his can be either summoned OR their various strengths and abilities embodied, maybe a combination of both.He who must not be named: I guess it would be a Wizard subclass (though I could argue Sorcerer) in which I build a concept for Voldemort and his Horcruxes.Pokemon trainer: Probably an Artificer focusing on different power-ups via items to empower your summons, each that can eventually evolve.Chi-blocker: Of course, this could easily be a Monk, more precisely a martial that specializes in shutting down casters benders or removing a threat from the fight.Could join in with some MCU/DC/other concept of my own. Barbarian for Wolverine, Warlock for Raven, Ranger for GrootAny number of Disney characters, but thats a different project Im working on. This includes a massive variety.Elemental bender: Its one of my favorite ideas, but its been done so much recently and I dont think I have enough time for the structure I desire.Any League of Legends champion.Spiderman: Because everybody is doing it. Artificer for me because hes smart. Add Intelligence to attack rolls and initiative. New items to simulate web slinging fun!

This theme just provides too much freedom!

----------


## animorte

My entry has been posted! Punching everything into submission and whats that? Its _spell-slinging?_ Monk: Way of Ki-Blocking has been submitted!
Also, have some of my classic mediocre reviews!

*Spoiler: Rogue Archetype: Web-Slinging Wall-Crawler*
Show


I like anything to do with grappling hook style play and this does a good job of it. Though I would think that a target at least your size would be allowed a Strength save to resist being pulled. Or is that built into their save to resist being grappled?

Also, Im not sure how likely we are to have a STRogue that wants to grapple, but its been done before!  :Small Tongue: 

*Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Psychokinetic*
Show


You may not know that _mage hand_ is my favorite cantrip. This gives it the life it has always deserved.

*Reckless Force:* I still think it would make more sense for the target to make a save to avoid falling prone (spell save DC perhaps). However, the forced movement is fair in all instances because Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar exist, no save.

*Psychokinetic Storm* is phenomenal.

*Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Bitten by a Magically-Infused Spider*
Show


*Arachnoid Aspects:* I like the idea of trading out spell slots for stronger physical attributes. Two concerns with that:
1. Does a greater benefit come from trading in a higher level spell slot or is it just +1 per any slot? It seems the latter, which is good.
2. I would remove the words, and at higher levels because that was confusing. It just sounds a lot better as, At first level, you do not learn any 1st-level spells, and your number of sorcerer spells known is permanently reduced by 2.

*Spoiler: Path of the Symbiote*
Show


*Symbiote Stretching:* You have the word romantic instead of somatic.  :Small Big Grin: 

I dont really have any mechanical advice on this. The subclass itself looks smooth.

*Spoiler: Monastic Tradition: Way of the Spider*
Show


*Do Whatever a Spider Can:* This is supposed to be at 6th level, yes? It doesnt say.

*11th:* Is that waiting on a name?  :Small Tongue: 

*Superior Way of the Spider:* The image doesnt seem to be working.
- I dont think the feral spider is so strong that it should take a week of rest. Maybe 1d4 days?
- The cocoon gave me a cool idea for being protected during a long rest though.

*Spoiler: Path of Bul-Kathos*
Show


Looks pretty good overall. It really captures the Diablo swarm-killing spirit.

*Dual Wield:* I wonder how this will work with Reach weapons? Is there expected to be any additional penalty, restriction, or just keep it the way it is?


My idea for Spider-Man (just to change it up) would have been an Artificer: Arachnologist. Because the Artificer needs more A-named subclasses apparently.  :Small Tongue: 

May the best Spider-Man win!

----------


## not_a_fish

> *Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Bitten by a Magically-Infused Spider*
> Show
> 
> 
> *Arachnoid Aspects:* I like the idea of trading out spell slots for stronger physical attributes. Two concerns with that:
> 1. Does a greater benefit come from trading in a higher level spell slot or is it just +1 per any slot? It seems the latter, which is good.
> 2. I would remove the words, and at higher levels because that was confusing. It just sounds a lot better as, At first level, you do not learn any 1st-level spells, and your number of sorcerer spells known is permanently reduced by 2.
> 
> May the best Spider-Man win!


Thanks for the review - I'm not sure I'm going to be able to polish the class to the point where I'd like it, but I had fun trying to figure out how to come up with a spider-cantrip.

Since I feel like this subclass is a bit of a "What if Peter Parker became Sorcerer Supreme?" thing, I also wonder if anyone has written a "Crimson Bands of Cyttorak" spell.

1. Nope, no benefit from higher level slots. I wanted it to be a diminishing-returns sort of thing.  I'm not quite sure if I need to put in language about created spell slots - I probably should, though.
2. Done.

----------


## MutantDragon

> *Spoiler: Path of the Symbiote*
> Show
> 
> 
> *Symbiote Stretching:* You have the word romantic instead of somatic. 
> 
> I dont really have any mechanical advice on this. The subclass itself looks smooth.



 :Small Big Grin:  That is officially fixed! Thanks for the feedback. Glad the subclass is looking good!

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> My entry has been posted! Punching everything into submission and whats that? Its _spell-slinging?_ Monk: Way of the Ki-Blocker has been submitted!
> Also, have some of my classic mediocre reviews!
> 
> *Spoiler: Rogue Archetype: Web-Slinging Wall-Crawler*
> Show
> 
> 
> I like anything to do with grappling hook style play and this does a good job of it. Though I would think that a target at least your size would be allowed a Strength save to resist being pulled. Or is that built into their save to resist being grappled?
> 
> ...


Aloha,

Thanks so much for your feedback, it's always appreciated!  In short, I try to avoid any instance of "2 chances to resist."  The web shot has a chance to miss since it's an attack roll, from there it's movement and a grapple (as you've noticed, the rogue may not be great at that so it's value is likely limited). I wanted to keep it codified for the low level feature "medium and smaller come to me, large and larger I go to them."  Once they have 7 levels of that under their belt, the flexibility of "Large can anchor me or be pulled" won't seem like such a leap.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

[QUOTE=animorte;25642832]
*Spoiler: Monastic Tradition: Way of the Spider*
Show


*Do Whatever a Spider Can:* This is supposed to be at 6th level, yes? It doesnt say.

*11th:* Is that waiting on a name?  :Small Tongue: 

*Superior Way of the Spider:* The image doesnt seem to be working.
- I dont think the feral spider is so strong that it should take a week of rest. Maybe 1d4 days?
- The cocoon gave me a cool idea for being protected during a long rest though.


Thankyou for your feedback! The subclass is still WIP, hope to have time to finish it the next days. So yes, i need a name for the 11th level feature, adjust everything, and probably make some rework.

I have to decide if nerf the feral spider one but making it once per day, or make it even stronger and keeping it once oer week.

I would also like to add a sort of paladin's tenet called "from great power..."

----------


## Old Harry MTX

Ok guys, the Way of the Spider is almost finished. It need just some fixes and maybe more characterization of the final capstone: can you recommend me possible features suitable for a character with 6 arms?

For the rest, I unfortunately gave up on developing the Upgrade mechanics because the features I made are in that annoying amount that makes them too many to be handled as normal features, and too few to be handled as maneuvers or spells. However, considering that many are utility skills, I opted for the first option.

----------


## animorte

> can you recommend me possible features suitable for a character with 6 arms?


Reaction: whenever a creature comes within melee range, you can attempt to grapple it.

Maybe you can grapple two creatures at a time, but cant make any attacks against them (or move) while doing so.




> For the rest, I unfortunately gave up on developing the Upgrade mechanics because the features I made are in that annoying amount that makes them too many to be handled as normal features, and too few to be handled as maneuvers or spells.


I feel this so much. I had far too many features and struggled organizing them for proper levels and figuring out what made the cut. At one point, I had a redundant single-target silenced effect, battle master maneuvers, and stunning strike for free during FoB.

----------


## Psyche

I am asking for an extra two weeks

----------


## MutantDragon

> I am asking for an extra two weeks


I'll go ahead and second that request for you.

----------


## animorte

> Putting this here as a placeholder until I finalise the details: be prepared for something almost certainly unbalanced, as I have never made a homebrew subclass before


Weve also got this one in the submission thread cutting it close. Might as well leave enough time for the newest submissions to receive some constructive feedback.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

That's ok for me!

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> Weve also got this one in the submission thread cutting it close. Might as well leave enough time for the newest submissions to receive some constructive feedback.


👍 I still have some tweaking but Im liking where its going.

----------


## Crim the Cold

> *Spoiler: Path of Bul-Kathos*
> Show
> 
> 
> Looks pretty good overall. It really captures the Diablo swarm-killing spirit.
> 
> *Dual Wield:* I wonder how this will work with Reach weapons? Is there expected to be any additional penalty, restriction, or just keep it the way it is?


If you re-read the entry you'll see that it does not work with reach weapons. I figured that reach weapons would be a bit too OP when combined with the path capstone ability Whirlwind Attack. Its already OP enough that greatswords and great axes can be wielded one handed.

----------


## animorte

> 👍 I still have some tweaking but Im liking where its going.


Same here! I know mine still needs a couple nudges in the right direction. If anyone cares to give it a solid thwacking, Id appreciate it! Otherwise, mine own eyes deceive me into believing it to be flawless.  :Small Tongue: 




> If you re-read the entry you'll see that it does not work with reach weapons. I figured that reach weapons would be a bit too OP when combined with the path capstone ability Whirlwind Attack. Its already OP enough that greatswords and great axes can be wielded one handed.


Well, I stumbled right over that in broad daylight. I absolutely agree. Very nice.

Looks like the new deadline for final editing/submissions will be: *December 14th*

----------


## Crim the Cold

> Well, I stumbled right over that in broad daylight. I absolutely agree. Very nice.


I do think that sword and boarding with a BFS, a BFH, or a BFA and/or dual wielding BFSs, BFHs or BFAs fits a very common but under-represented in D&D fantasy trope so I'm hoping it has a niche it fills nicely. That and a level 10 barbarian has the option of a Moment of Awesome if they have the Great Weapon Master feat. 

Bul-Kathos Barbarian: "I guess I should take you seriously." *drops second sword or shield and places a second hand on the hilt of his weapon"

My only worry about the sub-class is it feels like I just added more barbarian to the barbarian kind of like champion is for someone who just wants a bit more fighter in their fighter. There is probably nothing wrong with that since its a niche that the other paths dont fill.

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## animorte

> Bul-Kathos Barbarian: "I guess I should take you seriously." *drops second sword or shield and places a second hand on the hilt of his weapon"


This reminds me of Kirito in SwordArt Online. He hides the fact that he has the dual-wield feature for most of the series, but then it gets real.




> My only worry about the sub-class is it feels like I just added more barbarian to the barbarian kind of like champion is for someone who just wants a bit more fighter in their fighter. There is probably nothing wrong with that since its a niche that the other paths dont fill.


Thats exactly how I feel about my Monk. Its just more Monk. Certainly an improvement, but nothing to write home about.

----------


## Old Harry MTX

> My only worry about the sub-class is it feels like I just added more barbarian to the barbarian kind of like champion is for someone who just wants a bit more fighter in their fighter. There is probably nothing wrong with that since its a niche that the other paths dont fill.





> Thats exactly how I feel about my Monk. Its just more Monk. Certainly an improvement, but nothing to write home about.


I haven't read your entries yet, but consider that the champion is nothing more than a more fighter fighter, so...

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## Persolus

> Weve also got this one in the submission thread cutting it close. Might as well leave enough time for the newest submissions to receive some constructive feedback.


Thank you! I still plan to have my subclass posted by the end of the day today, but the extra time + feedback possibilities are greatly appreciated

----------


## Crim the Cold

> This reminds me of Kirito in SwordArt Online. He hides the fact that he has the dual-wield feature for most of the series, but then it gets real.
> 
> 
> Thats exactly how I feel about my Monk. Its just more Monk. Certainly an improvement, but nothing to write home about.


I was thinking more of Kenpachi during his fight with Noitra in Bleach. 

Since you've reviewed my sub-class you're going first on my list of reviews. I'll get to more if I have the time. Work normally would be slowing down this month but its not. 

Way of Ki Blocking Review

Initial reaction: Positive. 

Pros - This is a grab bag of abilities attempting mimic the abilities of Ty Lee from Avatar with a D&D flavor. Also Tai Lung from Kung Fu Panda. Deflect Spells reminds me a bit of Po's Inner Peace from Kung Fu Panda 2. Does not seem like the Ki blockers from Legend of Korra. Funny that two characters that have Ki Blocking skills have very similar names. It succeeds on a lot of this as their (Ty Lee and Tai Lung) success as combatants was their ability to evade attacks and then attack with precision during openings. This subclass would be very good at closing the distance with a ranged spellcaster and then shutting them down.

Cons - The Ki control is there all the way through but the Ki Blocking aspect isn't really present until the capstone at 17th level.

Suggestions:

Swap Acupressure and Deflect Spells. Then add an additional expansion onto the Acupressure ability at level 6 that allows them to use an action to make a hit roll, spend a Ki point, and inflict one of those conditions for 1 minute subject to a con save DC equal to the stunning strike DC. Expand the capstone to include acupressure saves as well. 

This will not make the monk OP mostly because this monk sub-class has the same problem every monk has. At low levels you never have enough Ki points. By the time you have enough Ki points spellcasters are reality altering munchkins and being a credible threat to one does not make this subclass too powerful.

Separate gripe - I have never liked the name for the Poisoned condition in 5e. I wish they had named it Sickened because that better represents what's going on. You're nauseous and its affecting your ability to fight.

----------


## animorte

> Since you've reviewed my sub-class you're going first on my list of reviews.
> 
> Initial reaction: Positive.


Greatly appreciated!  :Small Big Grin: 

*Spoiler: Quotes and responses*
Show




> Funny that two characters that have Ki Blocking skills have very similar names. It succeeds on a lot of this as their (Ty Lee and Tai Lung) success as combatants was their ability to evade attacks and then attack with precision during openings. This subclass would be very good at closing the distance with a ranged spellcaster and then shutting them down.


Yay, thats the goal! I wanted to encompass all of that Ki-Blocking concept while adding some of my own flair for the D&D universe.




> Cons - The Ki control is there all the way through but the Ki Blocking aspect isn't really present until the capstone at 17th level.


Yes, more than anything, I basically wanted to empower Stunning Strike, as thats pretty much the basis of Ki-Blocking.




> Suggestions:
> 
> Swap Acupressure and Deflect Spells. Then add an additional expansion onto the Acupressure ability at level 6 that allows them to use an action to make a hit roll, spend a Ki point, and inflict one of those conditions for 1 minute subject to a con save DC equal to the stunning strike DC. Expand the capstone to include acupressure saves as well.


The reason I have Acupressure at 6th level is because of how similar it is to the Mercy Monks Physicians Touch ability and I dont want to (how shall I say?) make that obsolete, step on its toes, steal its thunder.

I actually had an idea of spending additional Ki points in order to extend the effect of Stunning Strike. So instead of just spending 1 to attempt it, spend 3 total to extend the duration to 3 rounds instead of just one. Though I settled on the improvement of just a flat minute with attempts to save. Much more stream-lined and Ki friendly.




> Separate gripe - I have never liked the name for the Poisoned condition in 5e. I wish they had named it Sickened because that better represents what's going on. You're nauseous and its affecting your ability to fight.


Ive always felt like nauseous was a condition at some point in D&D, but I started in 3.5e, been on 5e longer, and I dont recall.


So, I kept Acupressure where its at, for the reason mentioned above. I moved the improved Stunning Strike duration up to 6th level. I added Acupressure Enmity (your additional idea) to 11th level. I added the saves  for those same effects to the capstone.

Again, I really appreciate your input!

----------


## Old Harry MTX

Ok guys, here some reviews! Nothing major to report, all entries look very good.

*Spoiler: Rogue Archetype: Web-Slinging Wall-Crawler*
Show

*Rogue Archetype: Web-Slinging Wall-Crawler*

Overall I like it, very similar to my version up to the last capstone. Maybe you could have dared a little more with the mechanics, but it's certainly more balanced than mine.

*Spider's Gifts.*  Wall-Crawling is mandatory, Web-Slinging is very nice. I've also tried something similar, but I ended up considering it a bit overcomplicated.

*Web Master.*  Nice.

*Superior Spider Gifts.*  Again, nothing to say here. It's fun to see how the features we've created tend to look alike, but no wonder I'd say!

*Gift of the Other.*  Mmm, this one seems a bit out of context to me, but maybe im missing the reference.


*Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Psychokinetic*
Show

*Sorcerous Origin: Psychokinetic*

*Psionic Spells.*  All of them make sense.

*Psionic Sorcery.*  Totally cool!

*Mage Hand Master.*  Strong, but comparable to an Eldritch Blast.

*Reckless Force.*  The mechanic is very cool, but I can't honestly determine how strong it is until I study it thoroughly. Adding such effects to spells without cost is maybe a bit excessive, I would add a cost in sorcerer points.

*Mobile Magic.*  Again, veeeery cool and themed, but I find it difficult to determine its power level.

*Psychokinetic Storm.*  The range increases by 10 feet in diameter or radius?


*Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Bitten by a Magic-Infused Spider*
Show

*Sorcerous Origin: Bitten by a Magic-Infused Spider*

I like the flavor, I too have tried to incorporate the Web of Life and Destiny into the context of the Weave.

*Arachnoid Aspects.*  Wow, I'm torn on this one. I can't figure out how balanced or unbalanced it is, and whether I consider it fun or not.

*Webbing.*  Mmm, I'm not a huge fan of features that don't go into action right away. Why don't you create a "lesser web" spell (or cantrip), maybe single target, and leave the normal one for later? You might add them as normal bonus spells.

*Spider Senses.*  Nice. I would probably have used the monk's formulation of patient defense.

*Seeing the Weave.*  Cool.

*Great Power (Responsibility Optional).*  I have the same concerns about Arachnoid Aspects, but overall it is a standard nice upgrade.


*Spoiler: Path of the Symbiote*
Show

*Path of the Symbiote*

*Symbiotic Mobility.*  Classic and mandatory.

*Symbiotic Weapons.*  Nice, but maybe not alluring enough to prefer it to a longsword. Why don't you add an increasing with level die like the monk's martial arts die?

*Symbiote Stretching.*  Good and themed. I like the differences between rage and not rage.

*Danger Sense Cancelation.*  That's very cool and original! A bit situational, but cool.

*Symbiote Shifting.*  Considering that Disguise Self is a 1st level spell, I'd probably have it cast at will, with no limit on uses.

*Proportionate Strength of a Symbiotic Spider.*  Great! It seems that, together with the climbing speed, this is a constant of all the "spidy" subclasses of this contest! XD


*Spoiler: Path of Bul-Kathos*
Show

*Path of Bul-Kathos*

Interesting! The barbarian from Diablo is originally inspired from the D&D one (as well the D&D one is inspired by Conan), so I'm curious to see this short wire.

*Shout.*  Cool and themed, but isnt it a bit too much? Also, how long do temporary HPs last? Are they cumulative?

*Scavenger.*  Ok, I guess. Very situational, but interesting.

*Dual Wield.*  Cool.

*Berserk.*  Ok. So you basically throw three dice instead of two, like a super advantage!

*Whirlwind Attack.*  Make sense.

Overall it seems to me that it lacks something useful to do outside of combat, but I suppose that it is not easy to find something like that taking inspiration from a Diablo class. XD


*Spoiler: Monk: Way of Ki-Blocking*
Show

*Monk: Way of Ki-Blocking*

*Path to Clarity.*  Nice one.

*Deflect Spells.*  Very nice, maybe it is just a bit weird that you get this at 3rd level while Deflect Missiles at 9th level.

*Acupressure.*  Cool.

*Nimble Evasion.*  Very nice.

*Acupressure Enmity.*  Good. Can you inflict more conditions on the same creature? Inflicting the charmed, frightened and poisoned conditions seems a bit weird, but ki works in mysterious ways i guess. Have you tried considering the silenced and paralyzed conditions instead?

*Acupressure Enmity.*  Good.

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## BerzerkerUnit

> Ok guys, here some reviews! Nothing major to report, all entries look very good.
> 
> *Spoiler: Rogue Archetype: Web-Slinging Wall-Crawler*
> Show
> 
> *Rogue Archetype: Web-Slinging Wall-Crawler*
> 
> Overall I like it, very similar to my version up to the last capstone. Maybe you could have dared a little more with the mechanics, but it's certainly more balanced than mine.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for your feedback!

Gift of the Other is a reference to Madame Web and the Other plot line where Peter finds out about his connection to Anansi the Spider-god.

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## Old Harry MTX

> Thanks so much for your feedback!
> 
> Gift of the Other is a reference to Madame Web and the Other plot line where Peter finds out about his connection to Anansi the Spider-god.


Makes sense, I had actually confused Contact Other Plane with Astral Projection... Basically, it have the same origin of mine Divination at 17th level. Can you cast it as ritual too?

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## animorte

> Ok guys, here some reviews! Nothing major to report, all entries look very good.
> 
> *Spoiler: Monk: Way of Ki-Blocking*
> Show
> 
> *Monk: Way of Ki-Blocking*
> 
> *Path to Clarity.*  Nice one.
> 
> ...


Deflect Missiles is actually also at 3rd level.  :Small Tongue: 

*Acupressure Enmity:* I mirrored the same conditions from Acupressure, but then the Paralyzed condition is perfect for Ki-Blocking, I just couldnt remember why I didnt include it until reading through all the conditions again Oh yeah, because several conditions included being incapacitated, which the Stunned condition already does. (I know they have minor differences though.) Ill give it a more thorough look.

Thanks so much for your thoughts and feedback!  :Small Big Grin:

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## MutantDragon

[QUOTE=Old Harry MTX;25651233]

*Spoiler: Path of the Symbiote*
Show

*Path of the Symbiote*

*Symbiotic Mobility.*  Classic and mandatory.

*Symbiotic Weapons.*  Nice, but maybe not alluring enough to prefer it to a longsword. Why don't you add an increasing with level die like the monk's martial arts die?

*Symbiote Stretching.*  Good and themed. I like the differences between rage and not rage.

*Danger Sense Cancelation.*  That's very cool and original! A bit situational, but cool.

*Symbiote Shifting.*  Considering that Disguise Self is a 1st level spell, I'd probably have it cast at will, with no limit on uses.

*Proportionate Strength of a Symbiotic Spider.*  Great! It seems that, together with the climbing speed, this is a constant of all the "spidy" subclasses of this contest! XD


Thanks for reviewing this! I'll try and make some adjustments today.

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## Old Harry MTX

> Deflect Missiles is actually also at 3rd level.


:embarassed: hum... I know perfectly well, I just... hem... wanted to see if you were paying attention. 




> *Acupressure Enmity:* I mirrored the same conditions from Acupressure, but then the Paralyzed condition is perfect for Ki-Blocking, I just couldnt remember why I didnt include it until reading through all the conditions again Oh yeah, because several conditions included being incapacitated, which the Stunned condition already does. (I know they have minor differences though.) Ill give it a more thorough look.


Consider that two conditions could technically be identical, but have different monsters that are immune to them, and different effects that apply them...

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## Old Harry MTX

Guys, since in my Monastic Tradition: Way of the Spider I had created three sub-features for each feature except for the final capstone, I added a third one there as well, called Arachnid Mindset. Now, I like it a lot from a flavor point of view, but in a nutshell it's more of a handicap than a feature, even if in my opinion it can help to balance everything (the subclass can already do a lot of things...) and give interesting RP cues. Do you think it makes sense to leave it?

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## MutantDragon

> Guys, since in my Monastic Tradition: Way of the Spider I had created three sub-features for each feature except for the final capstone, I added a third one there as well, called Arachnid Mindset. Now, I like it a lot from a flavor point of view, but in a nutshell it's more of a handicap than a feature, even if in my opinion it can help to balance everything (the subclass can already do a lot of things...) and give interesting RP cues. Do you think it makes sense to leave it?


I say leave it. It's not a big enough weakness to drive people away from using it and, like you said, there are some solid benefits to keeping it in.

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## animorte

> Consider that two conditions could technically be identical, but have different monsters that are immune to them, and different effects that apply them...





> Then add an additional expansion onto the Acupressure ability at level 6 that allows them to use an action to make a hit roll, spend a Ki point, and inflict one of those conditions for 1 minute subject to a con save DC equal to the stunning strike DC. Expand the capstone to include acupressure saves as well. 
> 
> Separate gripe - I have never liked the name for the Poisoned condition in 5e. I wish they had named it Sickened because that better represents what's going on. You're nauseous and its affecting your ability to fight.


So I looked over all of those conditions and made some adjustments to make more sense, as per your suggestion, both of you.*

I also modified Stun Lock to apply to _any save_ you force. But I have another concern: Is that too strong for 3 Ki (+1, forcing the save to begin with) or should it be 5 (+1) Ki?




> I added a third one there as well, called Arachnid Mindset
> 
> Do you think it makes sense to leave it?


Honestly, its situational enough (being only arachnids and other insect-like creatures) that I dont think it needs the drawback. Either way, it has cool RP potential.

Have some more feedback:
*Spoiler: Roguish Archetype: Serial Killer*
Show


First off, Ive always loved me some LoL. You might appreciate this thing and this other thing I appreciate (and sometimes disagree with).

I think *Slay* being restricted to crossbows might limit potential build preferences. Any ranged (not thrown) weapon should be fine.

*Curtain Call* is actually perfect, love it.

I was surprised you didnt try to fit in a trap type thing to resemble his, but the way you captured Jhin nicely while adding your own stealthy flair, it doesnt need it.


*_(Edit: I misplaced this initially, wanted to properly give thanks where its due.)_

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## Ilerien

Here's a makeshift version of the Faerie Knight fighter. I realize I'm jumping into the last car of a moving train, so probably won't get any reviews, but, unfortunately, I find myself almost devoid of free time lately.  :Small Annoyed:  Hence the lack of reviews by myself as well.

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## Crim the Cold

> I find myself almost devoid of free time lately.  Hence the lack of reviews by myself as well.


I feel this. Good grief I feel this.

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## Psyche

Is there a league of legends thread?

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## Persolus

Also going to withdraw, life decided to get way too busy for me to finish. Hopefully next time though!

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## animorte

> I feel this. Good grief I feel this.


This site has kept me going through a tough time lately.



> Is there a league of legends thread?


I dont believe so, but nothing says we cant start one over in Gaming!



> Also going to withdraw, life decided to get way too busy for me to finish. Hopefully next time though!


No problem. Hope youll stick around!

Just a reminder, the submission thread is closed! Thanks for all the wonderful entries everybody! I will wait another day or two before opening up the voting thread, give Psyche some time.

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## Psyche

After the voting thread can we take a break for christmas?
I need to take a break and cannot  post voting thread. Animorte? 
Sorry guys

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## animorte

> After the voting thread can we take a break for christmas?
> I need to take a break and cannot  post voting thread. Animorte? 
> Sorry guys


No problem. Ill pull up the voting thread soon and we can jump into the next contest in the new year!

Behold, the Voting Thread is open!

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## animorte

I extended the voting thread by one week, holidays and such.

New deadline for getting in all votes is now *January 5th!*

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## animorte

Hey everybody! Just a reminder to get in your votes! Only a few days left! Voting Thread

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## animorte

Congratulations to our winner of *I Read This in a Book Once* with 11 points... _Ilerien presenting the Martial Archetype: Faerie Knight_

The next Subclass Contest is  Hold My Ale!

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## Crim the Cold

Congratulations Ilerien!

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## Ilerien

> Congratulations Ilerien!


Why, thank you kindly!  :Small Smile: 

And I missed the deadline for voting.  :Small Annoyed:  Real life strikes again.

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## Itsfrank

That faerie knight looks so cool. You don't mind if try it out some?

The next theme looks real fun too. I might try one again.

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## Psyche

I've been really busy recently, thank you animorte. I will host the nest one, srry guys :Small Frown: .

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## animorte

> I've been really busy recently, thank you animorte. I will host the nest one, srry guys.


It's all good. Hope things are going alright.

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## Twelvetrees

I've added a draft of the Bootlegger. Not entirely satisfied with the higher level abilities, so we'll see if I can think of something better.

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## Ilerien

> That faerie knight looks so cool. You don't mind if try it out some?
> 
> The next theme looks real fun too. I might try one again.


Of course I don't mind, and I would be delighted to hear the tale of your playtest experience!  :Small Smile:

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## sengmeng

The Bouncer fighter archetype is here to throw the party out of the tavern.

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## Old Harry MTX

I really don't know what to develop for this edition, I like none of the ideas that came to my mind:

Someone that brews potions would sound too much like an alchemist. Also I have already developed similar ideas.Playing with the "homebrew" term, perhaps with metanarrative applications, a class that can create its own rules while playing. Fascinating, but probably off topic, and terribly difficult to develop.A reinterpretation of the drunken master, maybe applied to another class. I find it a bit trivial and redundant.A tavern keeper or a bartender, but... There's a reason these people usually stand behind the counter.A barbarian who summons and throws barrels at enemies' heads... But it would be little more than a reskin.
Of course everyone is free to take inspiration from these bad ideas, I'm totally uninspired. XD

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## not_a_fish

I'm also feeling indecisive - the existing alchemist and drunken boxer subclasses do decrease the unexplored archetypes available, if not the design space.

Some thoughts that have crossed my mind while considering have been: 
Despite the existence of the Tavern Brawler feat, the rules I'm aware of don't offer much in the way of suggestions for how to make a tavern brawl a fun encounter.
The implied context of "hold my ale" is "watch me do something stupid and/or cool." 
Meeting in a tavern is a classic way to start a campaign; what are some subclasses that might naturally hang out in that setting?
Other than alchemy, what might spellcasters use alcohol for? Is the Green Fairy a viable warlock Patron? Would a Fermentation druid by much different from a Spores druid?
I've already done a culinary arts bard; doing the same for bartending might be a retread

Leaning towards the Green Fairy patron.

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## not_a_fish

> [*]A barbarian who summons and throws barrels at enemies' heads... But it would be little more than a reskin.


Have we already done Monkeys and Apes as a theme?

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## Old Harry MTX

> Meeting in a tavern is a classic way to start a campaign; what are some subclasses that might naturally hang out in that setting?


What about a subclass that lets you play the tavern itself? Perfect for oneshots. 




> Have we already done Monkeys and Apes as a theme?


I'm afraid no, as well as none "italian plumber" theme...

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