# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 > Pathfinder Building A Bardadin

## Palanan

This isnt something I ever tinkered with in 3.5, but now Im wondering how to do this using only first-party Pathfinder material.  

Is this as feasible in PF as it was in 3.5?  When would it come online in Pathfinder, and what would be a classic way to start out?

----------


## Eldonauran

What are the highlights you want to pick up in the combination of the classes?  There are various ways to do this.

Bard + VMC Paladin and Paladin + VMC Bard are just two of the more seamless ways to combine the concepts.  Otherwise, there are specific archetypes for various other classes that can get you other aspects you might be looking for.

----------


## Palanan

Truth is, I know little enough about the 3.5 version that I don't have a specific concept in mind.  I'm very open to looking at different approaches.

That said, my preference would be for archetypes rather than using VMC, and something that's effective at third or fourth level would be ideal.

----------


## Eldonauran

Well, the easiest way to blend a Paladin and Bard together in one chassis is to use the Martyr archetype for the Paladin.  It trades away smite evil and alters some of the more key Paladin specific abilities (ie, removes blanket immunities but still provides significant boosts to saving throws).  Combine it with Unsanctioned Knowledge to pick some bard spells to pad your list, and you should be good to go.  For a Bard only class archetype, there are not any real direct translations like there is for the Martyr and I'd recommend the VMC option for Paladin.

My personal favorite is a Sunsinger Skald with the VMC Paladin option.  But that might not fit your idea and certainly does not come online by level 4.

----------


## Palanan

Interesting ideas, though not quite what I was thinking.  Martyr has a very different feel, and I would want to keep smite evil.

Speaking of which, is there anything in Pathfinder equivalent to the Devoted Performer feat?

----------


## Eldonauran

Yeah, archetypes in Pathfinder are geared more like Prestige Classes in D&D 3.5e.  They carry their own kind of feel and overall niche in flavor.  That is why I was curious as to what abilities (exactly) you want to preserve from the Paladin/Bard classes.  If you want both Bardic Performances and Smite Evil, you don't have much room to maneuver on options.  Paladin with VMC Bard is probably the best way to pull that off.

As for the Devoted Performer feat, I am not aware of a Pathfinder equivalent though it wouldn't be out of the question to allow that feat like that in Pathfinder.  It will need some tweaking since Smite and Bardic Performance function differently in total uses.  There is a feat that allows Druid/Ranger to stack for Wildshape and Favored Enemy, but that's about it.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Eldonauran*
> _Paladin with VMC Bard is probably the best way to pull that off._


Hmm, okay.  Ive avoided VMC options in general because theyve never seemed that impressive.  What would a good Paladin/VMC bard look like?




> Originally Posted by *Eldonauran*
> _As for the Devoted Performer feat, I am not aware of a Pathfinder equivalent though it wouldn't be out of the question to allow that feat like that in Pathfinder. It will need some tweaking since Smite and Bardic Performance function differently in total uses._


What sort of tweaks would you recommend?

----------


## Eldonauran

> Hmm, okay.  Ive avoided VMC options in general because theyve never seemed that impressive.  What would a good Paladin/VMC bard look like?


Well, you are going to want Lingering Performance as a feat, which you should pick up at level 7 when you get your Bardic Performance (through retraining your 5th level feat).  Your level 1 feat (and bonus feat if you are a human) should be whatever you want for your particular fighting style, which will depend on what sort of Performance instrument you choose (I am a fan of drums, singing, oratory) so you can make sure to keep a hand free for their use.  Lots of people like the Fey Foundling feat to supercharge their healing but Weapon Focus is just fine too.  Keep in mind Bardic Masterpieces as you can trade off feats to pick up very fun and powerful abilities to use your extra Bardic Performance rounds on (this will only become relevant at level 9+).  

Sample:
1) Fey Foundling
1B) Weapon Focus
3) Bardic Knowledge
5) ??????? (Lingering Performance @ 7th level)
7) Bardic Performances (Inspire Courage/Competence)
9) Bardic Masterpiece (??????)
11) Versatile Performance
13) Unsanctioned Knowledge
15) Lore Master
17) Bardic Masterpiece (??????)
19) Bardic Performances (Inspire Greatness/Dirge of Doom)

If you aren't a fan of Bardic Masterpieces, simply find something else to spend your feats on.  I just like them a lot.





> What sort of tweaks would you recommend?


If you were multiclassing a Paladin and a Bard, rather than using VMC, I'd allow the levels to stack together to determine the damage done while your smite evil is active and you to add a number of rounds to your Bardic Performance pool equal to your levels in Paladin, and to count your total Paladin/Bard levels combined for qualifying for any Bardic Masterpieces.

----------


## Aa602213x1023

> This isnt something I ever tinkered with in 3.5, but now Im wondering how to do this using only first-party Pathfinder material.  
> 
> Is this as feasible in PF as it was in 3.5?  When would it come online in Pathfinder, and what would be a classic way to start out?


Have you considered the Omdura?  It's a little more like an inquisitor/paladin, but it has a blend of 6th level CHA-based spellcasting, some buffing options, and pseudo Smite Evil.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/omdura/

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Eldonauran*
> _*sample build & tweaks*_


Excellent, thanks.  Fey Foundling added to LoH does sound nice.

Ive never looked into bardic masterpieces, and there seem to be a lot of them, to the point that its a bit daunting.  Any in particular youd recommend?




> Originally Posted by *Eldonauran*
> _Your level 1 feat (and bonus feat if you are a human) should be whatever you want for your particular fighting style, which will depend on what sort of Performance instrument you choose (I am a fan of drums, singing, oratory) so you can make sure to keep a hand free for their use._


Would Perform (singing) pair well with sword and board?




> Originally Posted by *Aa602213x1023*
> _Have you considered the Omdura? It's a little more like an inquisitor/paladin, but it has a blend of 6th level CHA-based spellcasting, some buffing options, and pseudo Smite Evil._


I hadnt looked at this one in detail before.  It seems sort of paladin-lite.

Fact is, Ive come across this class before, but I havent pursued it mainly because the source book iselusive, to say the least.  It doesnt seem to be available on the Paizo site, nor on Amazon, and the last update I can find suggests the author doesnt want it listed on AoN.  I cant even find a page count, so I cant tell if this is a module or a full campaign setting.  Id love to know more, but Paizo isnt doing the product any favors.

----------


## Eldonauran

> Excellent, thanks.  Fey Foundling added to LoH does sound nice.
> 
> Ive never looked into bardic masterpieces, and there seem to be a lot of them, to the point that its a bit daunting.  Any in particular youd recommend?


There are so many good ones but it depends entirely on what kind of performance(s) you are really willing to devote skill points into.  I'd suggest reading through the entire list when you have time.  Song of Sarkoris is a really good one, effectively guaranteeing more attacks per round when enemies deal damage to you.  The Requiem of the Fallen Priest-King let's you turn a swift action into a a move/standard action once in a 10 minute period.   




> Would Perform (singing) pair well with sword and board?


Singing or Oratory would pair best, since your hands won't be free unless your board ends up being a buckler.  Dance might be a decent one as well.  Acting and Comedy might be suitable too, but those start to stretch my verisimilitude a bit when engaged in actual combat.




> I hadnt looked at this one in detail before.  It seems sort of paladin-lite.
> 
> Fact is, Ive come across this class before, but I havent pursued it mainly because the source book iselusive, to say the least.  It doesnt seem to be available on the Paizo site, nor on Amazon, and the last update I can find suggests the author doesnt want it listed on AoN.  I cant even find a page count, so I cant tell if this is a module or a full campaign setting.  Id love to know more, but Paizo isnt doing the product any favors.


I'd suggest avoiding that class.  While it was made by Paizo, it is closer to 3rd party material.  My rule of thumb is "If it isn't on Archives of Nethys, it is not 1st party material one should consider."

----------


## Drelua

I'm not familiar with VMC, but if you just wanted to dip Paladin 2 levels would get you smite, lay on hands, and divine grace. 4 levels with Oath of Vengeance would get you potentially a lot of smites in a day, plus divine health and aura of courage. Paladin does get a lot of class features for the first 4 levels and it slows down after that, so you wouldn't be missing out on many of their best class features, just the scaling for smite and LoH of course. I'd take at least 2 Paladin levels first, just to make it easier to put your skill ranks where you want them.

Might also be worth porting 3.5's Devoted Performer feat, if that's an option for you. Paizo seems to have something against multiclassing, so they never really print anything like that.

----------


## Eldonauran

Less to do with being 'against' multiclassing and more focused on building archetypes (or alternate class features for those more familiar with that terminology).  Their design philosophy is merely different.  The way their classes are designed incentivize staying in them for the full duration.  For example, dipping 2 level of Paladin does net you some decent goodies and doing a 16 Bard/4 Paladin is a fairly great break point, but your Smite is never going to add more than 4 damage to your attacks (limited to twice per day) and your Lay on hands is stuck at 2d6 healing.  It is not bad, at all, but you lose out on a lot of your potential gains.  

A pure class Paladin is a very powerful character already.  Trading off half of your feats (and you get more of those in PF1 than 3.5e) for the options available from the variant multiclass bard option is entirely worth it (some VMC options are not).  Divine Bond with your weapon on top of the Inspire Courage ability is going to net you some fairly high numbers in combat.  Paladins already have some good spells on their list, and using Unsanctioned Knowledge to cherry pick 4 of the really good Bard spells ... well, its pure gold.


Though, I admit I am extremely biased towards Bards (and Skalds) in general.  You can still multiclass to great benefit, but it is no where near as abusable as it was in 3.5e

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Eldonauran*
> _I'd suggest avoiding that class. While it was made by Paizo, it is closer to 3rd party material._


From what I can tell, Niobe is essentially 3PP with the Pathfinder logo, similar to how Kingdoms of Kalamar is third-party with the WotC logo on one book.




> Originally Posted by *Drelua*
> _Might also be worth porting 3.5's Devoted Performer feat, if that's an option for you._


Ill most likely be doing this, using Eldonaurans suggested changes from above.




> Originally Posted by *Eldonauran*
> _Paladins already have some good spells on their list, and using Unsanctioned Knowledge to cherry pick 4 of the really good Bard spells ... well, its pure gold_.


Hmm.  Any suggestions on good bard spells?

----------


## Eldonauran

> Hmm.  Any suggestions on good bard spells?


For your purposes, I'd suggest taking the bard specific spells that interact with your performances for greater effect: 1st-Saving Finale (rerolls are fun), 2nd-Allegro (personal haste and built in reroll), 3rd-Exquisite Accompaniment (when you don't want to spend performance rounds), 3rd-Purging Finale (status removal), 3rd-Reviving Finale (healing), 4th-Heroic Finale (bonus action), 4th-Song of Kyonin (fast healing, bonus healing, status removal), and 4th-Virtuoso Performance (for when one performance is not enough).  You can sort through them to see which you'd prefer over the others.


1st-Moment of Greatness, 2nd-Galant Inspiration, 2nd-Disrupt Silence, and 2nd-Bladed Dash are good ones too, as are plenty of others.  All depends on what kind of Bardadin you want to be.

----------

