# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next > Optimization An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

## LudicSavant

> I like a bunch of your builds to be honest. The Wood Elf Samurai generalist, the Vengeance Paladin, this one, etc...
> 
> I only wish you'd put them all together somewhere I could find them easily lol ;)


Ask and ye shall receive!  

Herein are collected some builds that were made in response to advice threads and the like.  Since these were responses to specific questions, I have tried to summarize the context for each.  All of them are good from level 1-20 and can perform in all 3 pillars of play.  

Hopefully these help provide people with some ideas for fun and viable builds.  Enjoy!   :Small Smile: 

*Build 1:  Celestial Generalist*
This is a jack of all trades build highlighting the versatility of the Celestial Warlock.




> Originally Posted by Mjolnirbear
> 
> 
> The value in a lock isn't his casting. It's his versatility.
> 
> The party is Sorcerer, Paladin, Fighter, Warlock. As warlock, you can:
> * be a primary healer via celestial patron
> * be a melee damage via hexblade
> * be a ritual caster via Tome
> ...



*Build 2:  Ride of the Valkyries Paladin*
This build is a core-only, straight class Paladin that boasts excellent mobility and solid DPR (both burst and sustained) at all levels, while avoiding any delay to your support progression / maxing Charisma.

This build was originally posted to help a poster asking for a single-class Paladin build.  And one of the nicest things about _not_ being a Sorlockadin is that you get Find Greater Steed.  It also was in a campaign where magic items were on the table, which really helps us open up ASI choices for Paladins (since they don't need to max both Str and Cha).  Though, if you find yourself in a game where getting magic items is off the table, you can still do a build like this (see the "notes" section near the end of the build for advice on how).

Here's the 2HF version:



> Originally Posted by Aleister VII
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by LudicSavant
> 
> ...


Notes:  
- Thanks to the new errata (which was made after this post) you can PAM with shield and spear, which I find a lot more thematically compelling than quarterstaff and shield.  Definitely worth considering a spear and shield version of this build.
- In any game using the XGtE or DMG guidelines for crafting or buying magic items (or AL, for that matter), replacing your Strength score by mid-levels is generally not too hard to come by due to the abundance of Strength-replacing magic items at every level of rarity.  However, if getting Gauntlets of Ogre Strength or Belt of Giant Strength by tier 3 is off the table for whatever reason, then you can still do this build with good stat rolls, or start dropping feats (starting with GWM) in favor of Strength bonuses.  Make sure to keep Polearm Master as your level 1 VHuman feat, though!
- If you're using XGtE, take note of the Holy Weapon spell.
- Damage is calculated assuming RAW GWF, rather than the Twitter version.  If you're using the Twitter version instead, consider a different fighting style.

*Build 2b:  Shield and Spear Valkyrie*

VHuman / Cha 20, Belt of Giant Strength, PAM, Mounted Combatant, Inspiring Leader, War Caster
Fighting Style:  Dueling

*Build 3: Wood Elf Magic Commando*
This one was made to what might at first seem like a rather odd request:  A Fighter that can buff/support, do some sort of spellcasting, sneak, and smash heads that _isnt_ an Eldritch Knight.

Turns out thats actually more doable than one might expect!




> You can have your straight-classed fighter, your spellcasting non-Eldritch Knight, your party support, and your sneaking, all while still being pretty good.
> 
> 
> Wood Elf Battlemaster Fighter 20
> 17 Dex, 14 Con, 15 or 16 Wis, whatever else.
> Elven Accuracy (18 dex)
> 20 Dex
> Wood Elf Magic (Guidance as your cantrip)
> Alert
> ...


Variants:
- Shield Master is of variable usefulness depending on party composition and which of the several rulings your group favors (thanks to JC changing his mind frequently on how it works).  Alternative feat choices include Lucky (which stacks with Indomitable for making saves, and also can be used to negate crits against you) or Defensive Duelist (best taken at high levels when you have a high proficiency bonus).

*Build 4:  Arcana Cleric Frontliner*
This one was built to showcase how Arcana Clerics can make sticky and versatile frontliners who can do an awful lot to actively lock down or counter foes whether were talking about melee brutes, mook swarms, spellcasters, whatever.  It's very similar to a build we used in a campaign that ran from low to high levels, to great effect.


_One fun way of fluffing Shillelagh and Spirit Guardians_

Azorius VHuman Arcana Cleric 1-20
Stat Priorities:  Wis > Con > Dex 14, other stats to taste
ASIs:  War Caster @1, Magic Initiate (Shillelagh/Thorn Whip/Absorb Elements) @4, +2 Wis @8, +2 Wis @12, Resillient (Constitution) @16, Lucky @19, in that order.
Cantrips:  Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, Word of Radiance, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Mending, Light
Gear to look for:  Basically you want anything that raises your defenses, like AC/saves.  Also, getting a Strength-boosting item is a popular alternative to taking Shillelagh, since they're relatively easy to come by in many campaigns (including AL, apparently) and also open up shove/grapple options.

Warcaster, Res (Con), Lucky, and Max Wis are great for any Cleric.  With VHuman we throw in Magic Initiate to make us SAD, give us Thorn Whip for hazard combos, and Absorb Elements for eating the occasional dragon breath or the like.

Build itself is pretty simple, and works well at all levels.  But as is often the case with caster builds, just posting the build doesn't really tell you _why_ it's so effective.  The trick is knowing what to do with it, because these guys get a _lot_ of tools.  They know over a hundred spells and I don't have the time to go over every single one of them and all their interactions and combos and situational uses and such.  I mean, I could dedicate an entire thread to discussing some of these _single spells_.  But I'll try to at least give an idea of the sort of things you're bringing to the table here.

So here are just a few examples of what they can do:




> 1)  Booming Blade is a lot more dangerous than usual from these guys, because Potent Spellcasting adds your Wisdom on both the melee attack and the rider, and because Warcaster means that walking outside of the Cleric's threatened area to go punch someone else triggers the rider and then _another Booming Blade_ and then _another rider too_.  This works out to a significant chunk of damage at any level, especially considering it's not all of your action economy (you've still got your Concentration, your bonus action, and possibly minions).
> 
> While it doesn't "force" an enemy to stay still, it punishes them severely for not doing so.  If they opt to walk over to someone with a couple less points of AC, the benefit of this is offset by living for less rounds and therefore being able to take fewer harmful actions.   And staying still has considerable disadvantages of its own (like getting stuck in hazards, having Disadvantage on ranged attack rolls, being unable to adjust line of effect, etc).
> 
> In short, this Cleric has a damned fine OA and that is a very useful thing for a tank to have.
> 
> 2)  Spellbreaker is antimagic gold, and there's an awful lot of things you can do with it.  
> 
> For example, casting Regenerate provides an hour long, Concentrationless buff that gradually heals over 600 hp throughout its long duration, helping to keep ally hp topped off between combats and picking up allies off the 0hp gate at the start of their turn without so much as a bonus action cost.  But with Spellbreaker, it also removes a spell effect you don't like every round, again with no action cost from you.  Its like an hour long every turn get a mini Healing Word / Dispel Magic at the start of your turn.
> ...


Variants/Notes:
Shillelagh's benefit can be replaced by either getting a strength-replacing item (Gauntlets or Belt) or by simply rolling well enough on your stats.  Toll the Dead can also provide decent OAs even without Magic Initiate (though not on the level of Booming Blade's up to 8d8+15, which can further scale with magic weapons).  Alert is a useful alternate feat.  Observant is top shelf if you have an odd Wisdom score.Some other good choices for your Wizard cantrip are Minor Illusion (always great), Shape Water (see link), Ray of Frost (an AC-targeting ranged cantrip is something Clerics usually don't have, and this one makes it even harder for enemies to move through your Spirit Guardians), and Create Bonfire (with the right party composition, this can be brutal resourceless damage with Potent Spellcasting).  For this particular build, generally you should replace Green-Flame Blade, not Booming Blade.Party combos:  This particular build is ideal for parties that don't have a whole lot of (or any) other frontliners, because one of the things this build is really good at is punishing enemies for trying to move past you.  If your allies are already within arm's reach, monsters don't have to run through the No Man's Land that is you.  Allies who knock enemies back, make them flee, or drop hazards also combo well.




More will probably be posted in the future, if people are interested.  I have about a bajillion builds and have only ever posted a few of them.  I'd also be happy to answer questions about why I made any given build choices or the like.

Let me know your thoughts!

*Edit:  See the second post for additional builds!*

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## LudicSavant

*More of my Builds!*

*Build 5 and 6:  The Lifeguard and the Goblin Hazard Druid*
A Land Druid Mini-Guide

*Build 7:  Hobgoblin Iron Wizard*
A straight class Wizard, except the complete opposite of squishy.

*Build 8: The Ancestral Nightmare*
A Simic Hybrid Ancestral Guardian tank build.

*Build 9:  The Nuclear Wizard*
A powerful and versatile Evoker build with extremely high damage, great control, and even some retribution tanking.

*Build 10:  The Jorasco Physician*
Or, "How to make a Wizard a top shelf healer." 

*Build 11:  The Ancestral Avenger (Ancestral Barbarian / Echo Knight)*
A pseudo-ranged GWM build that protects itself and its allies with a remote Sentinel. 

*Build 12: The Soulknife (Shadowblade Eldritch Knight)*
A punishing lockdown tank Eldritch Knight build that manifests its weapons and armor.  Not to be confused with the Rogue subclass that was released afterwards.

*Build 13:  The Ancient Kyujutsu Master*
Just an Elven Accuracy Sharpshooter Samurai

*Build 14:  The Modern Gun-Kata Master*
The Ancient Kyujutsu Master, except using new goodies from Tasha's.  And a gun.

*Build 15:  The Way of the Demonweb Spider (Blindfighting Half-Drow Shadow Monk / Battle Master)*
Exploring what the Shadow Monk can do after the Tasha buffs.

*Build 16:  Swift Death to Evil (A Ninja Assassin/Spymaster Paladin)*
A versatile Dex-based Paladin who turns the entire party into a ninja strike team that can kill enemies before they can react.

*Build 17:  The Celestial Giftlock (aka the Ever-Living Generalist)*
A powerhouse generalist using Pact of the Chain.  First and foremost a top shelf healer, but _also_ a boss-shredder, AoE blaster, controller, kiter, tank, scout, etc.


*Builds created by other posters in this thread:*
The Eldritch Blast Knight by BloodcloudThe Tiefling Masochist by Story_OptimizedThe Fey Knight by SithLordNergalThe Passive Soul by RitorixThe Battle Valkyrie Life Cleric by Man_Over_GameKing Leonidas by Tallytrev813The Warlord Halfling by MjolnirbearDragonriders by MjolnirbearThe Undecided Spare by MjolnirbearThe Dilettante by MjolnirbearThe Dabbler by MjolnirbearThe Stab of All Trades by SkylivedkThe Tank of All Trades by SkylivedkThe Never-Ending Ward by SkylivedkThe Kinetic Blaster and Jedi Tank by AtomicWrathThe Flying Tank by AtomicWrathYeti, PhD by AtomicWrathJedi Tank by AtomicWrathNature is Magical by MercuriasThe Advokist Tomb Raider by AtomicWrathThe Shadow Whip by ThatDuckGrantWhippy the Wonder Goblin by AmechraMr. Disintegration Pistol by AmechraThe ZombieNaught by Skylivedk4 Arms of Grappling Death by SkylivedkSwift Blade & Bottle by SkylivedkSpider-Man by SkylivedkMonsieur DeLafleur, Cook Extraordinaire! by AmechraThe Booming Trickster by BarneyBentThe True Skill Monkey by AmechraArcie the ridiculously lucky Arcane Trickster by GorogInputYEET by TrickeryTesla Coils by FableWrightThe UberMage by Story_OptimizedThe Divine Conduit by RingoBongoVesselyth, the Clockwork Bandit by Mjolnirbear The God of Lightning by bendkingBuilding Iron Man by AgenderAcreeThe Feywarden by Justin SaneThe Grease Trap by Citadel97501Celestial Dragonforge Cleric, Master of the Searing Smite, by AgenderAcreeZealot of Death, by Benny89The Caster's Bane, by Alucard89Plague Stalker, by Alucard89The Astral Paraih, by ftafpThe Templar of Time, by BobthewizardThe Hex Spoon by ftafpThe Skill Monkey's Country Cousin by Kvard51The Guardian of Balance by Benny89The Underwater Basket Weaver by ftafpLung Wang by ftafpThe Cheese Grater by SkylivedkGrapple Bard: My Shield is Here ForYou by PancakeMaster80The Platinum-Tongued Diplomat by LegospasmAll-In Persuasion by LegospasmGuardian Angel/Party Pleaser by LegospasmThe Lord Marshall by Citadel97501The Naked Dragon by jojoskullThe Arcane Blade by BendkingThe Holy Avenger by BendkingThe Holy Protector by BendkingHeroforge 2 models of Eclectic Builds by Draz74The Alien Ant Farm by ftafpThe Hecatoncheires by ftafpThe Magnetic Pauldron (AKA: Tech Support) by ftafpIlliquar the Tentacular by ftafpKermit the Slaad by ftafpThe Level 14 Aristocrat by ftafpThe Crystal-Covered Crusher by Draz74The Hobgoblin Steel Sorcerer by BendkingThe Rune Knight Bully by MitchellnotesThe Psychic Master by BendkingThe Trunk Tank by Sol0botmateThe Heavy Artillerist by ftafpBob the Builder by ZaileThe Überflumph by ftafpThe Aberrant Mind Sorlock: A Renaissance Man by borg286Smoll Panzer Smith by Sol0botmateThe Necessary Evil by carrdrivesyouA Peaceful Summoner by HaelCloud Kill by Sol0botmateMisty Holystabber by Sol0botmateThe Road Rash Wrestler by WraithThe Kraken by Sol0botmateThe Umbral Messiah by ftafpHeaven's Commando by Citadel97501Ambulatory Tank by LumenPlacidumThe War Princess:  Master of Malicious Minionmancy by ftafpThe Fire Marshal by ftafpThe Sanguine Bastion by Rerem115The Blazing Boa by DalinarThe Whisperer in the Dark by ftafpThe Thundering Cleric by LumenPlacidumThe Counterer of Spells by Jon talks a lotDrink Your Way to Valhalla by Jon talks a lotCaliban by RingoBongoThe Joestar Special by DalinarThe Rave Queen by Jon talks a lotEveryone's Best Friend by EvaarLiterally Luke Skywalker by RenduazThe Oxymoronic Meat Grinder by Wraith(Angelic Variant on Oxymoronic Meat Grinder) by Citadel97501The Wagoneer by ftafpThe d6 Piercer by RihnoSoulknife Generalist by LumenPlacidumArcane Knight by RihnoThe Farfire Visionary by RenduazKorg - the Push by HousterThe Eye of Annihilation by WraithThe Ring Leader by EvaarThe Hobgoblin Battle Commander by NCatThe Hex Grappler by Jon talks a lotSparky McDibben's Way of the Demonweb Pits SubclassBreath of the Twin-Headed Dragon by WraithThe Cerulean City Sorlock: A Build for the Pokemon Trainer In Your Heart by ftafpThe Unseelie Wander: A multi-faceted terror for those who want to join the Wild Hunt by ftafpThe Spooky Scary Paladin aka The Gothic Tank by LavaeolusThe Bondage, Domination, and Servitude Mountie by ftafpThe Roving Scoundrel by Rerem115Owl-Cowl: A pokemon-inspired ranger-danger that spells death from above by ftafp

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## n00b

I'm running the Celestial build right now, or rather it's about to start but that's what I'm going with.  Considering taking a few (1-3) levels of Sorcerer, mostly for extra spells slots for things like Shield.

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## Keeganwilson

Please do more of these! They're fantastic

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## Pyramid Pug

I am soooo bookmarking this thread 🤩

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## LudicSavant

> Please do more of these! They're fantastic


Anything in particular people would be interested in seeing?

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## Keeganwilson

Anything you think is fun! I'm a big fan of clerics personally

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## Winddragco

Can someone break down the damage calculation of the paladin because I don't understand where some of the dices are coming from?

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## LudicSavant

> Can someone break down the damage calculation of the paladin because I don't understand where some of the dices are coming from?


Belt of Giant Strength provides a high strength bonus.  PAM+Haste+Extra Attack provides 4 attacks.  Smite + Improved Smite adds dice to everything.  GWF raises the average of all damage dice (with RAW version, rather than twitter version).  GWM matters occasionally (but is mostly there for your sustained damage, not your burst).   Advantage from the Channel Divinity setup or the mounted bonus or other possible sources.  Should be ~150-200 depending on what grade of Giant's Belt you're using.  Can do more if you can get a reaction attack (from either PAM or Soul of Vengeance or OA), magic weapon, ally buffs, or have your steed attacking.

It's not the highest nova DPR in the world, but it's very good for a straight-class Paladin, and Paladins bring lots of other goodies to the table besides just their DPR (such as a very fast and durable steed, or a 30 foot +5 saves aura).  

You also have solid sustained DPR too.  Your easy access to Advantage, GWM, 3 attacks (plus possible reaction attack), and long-lasting buffs like Hunter's Mark or Holy Weapon mean that you can instead opt to stretch out your resources while dealing solid damage and only smiting opportunistically (such as on crits).

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## Rerem115

I've done the Commando build before, but I did it a bit differently.  Half-Elf Champion, as opposed to Wood Elf Battlemaster, with focus on Charisma and face skills more than scouting, but still a crit-fishing Dex Fighter that can go all day at heart.

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## Cygnia

Got anything for Land Druids (pref. VHuman)?

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## Maan

These are really nice and entertaining to read, thank you!

Care to help me with a build?
I'm thinking about a tank with the options for good damage and decent control. I'm about to start a new campaign/long adventure and while teorically the other three charactes are going to be a Cleric tank, a Rogue glass cannon (not sure) and a Wizard controller, they are all somewhat newbie-ish. So I'd like something to plug possibile holes.

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## LudicSavant

> Got anything for Land Druids (pref. VHuman)?


So let's build a Land Druid!  This post sort of turned into a whole mini-guide, so buckle in.   :Redcloak: 

When one starts building a Land, a few questions tend to pop up:
1)  I actually care about my AC if I'm not going to be a Moon bear all the time.  How do I get my AC up?  Is the non-metal armor thing a problem?
2) Which Land should I pick?
3) What the heck am I gonna do with my bonus actions?
4) What am I doing to be relevant when I'm _not_ burning spell slots? 

*Armor Solutions*
So, there have been numerous long and divisive threads about whether a Druid can opt to break the non-metal armor taboo.

If you or your DM is on the "don't break the taboo" side of the fence, don't panic, there are solutions.  Note page 143 of the DMG, where one of the minor properties that can be assigned to armor is "strange material."  Point this out to your DM and see if you can find armor made of bone, chitin, scales, ironwood, or any of the various precedents for non-metallic medium/heavy armor set by multiple editions of D&D lore.

A relevant Sage Advice can be found here, and it specifically calls out the possibility of finding things like non-metal chain mail, as well as the fact that finding such things is not out of line with their balance expectations for the Druid.  So I'd generally recommend that route.

There is also the option of being a Mysteriously Medium Elephantman (from Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica) and getting a Constitution-based AC calc as well as a bunch of good Druid features.  Or of beng a Goblin who needs AC less because of their ability to hide as a bonus action.  Lizardfolk can be an option too, but only really if you've rolled high on stats (otherwise, you won't have the Dexterity for their natural armor to really make a difference).

*Which Land?*
Okay, so let's take a look at the _unique_ spells we get for each list.
Arctic:  Slow, Cone of Cold
Coast:  Mirror Image, Misty Step
Desert:  Blur, Create Food and Water, Silence
Forest:  Divination, Spider Climb
Grassland:  Divination, Haste, Invisibility, Dream
Mountain:  Lightning Bolt, Passwall, Spider Climb
Swamp:  Darkness, Melf's Acid Arrow, Stinking Cloud
Underdark:  Cloudkill, Gaseous Form, Greater Invisibility, Spider Climb, Stinking Cloud, Web

The easiest one to rule out is probably *Swamp*.  Melf's Acid Arrow is mathematically garbage, Darkness is competing with other excellent Concentration options (including ones that do fairly similar things like Fog Cloud or Sleet Storm), and so is Stinking Cloud.  It doesn't have a great listing of non-unique options to always have prepared, either.

*Forest* also has a pretty unexciting list of unique spells.  Divination is nice, but Grassland has that and Haste.  Spider Climb is on multiple Land lists, too, and competes for your Concentration.

*Mountain* gets Lightning Bolt.  Yeah, it's not Fireball, but Druids don't get that.  Your non-Concentration blasting choices would otherwise be limited to Tidal Wave or Erupting Earth.  Or nothing, if you were core-only.  But I rather like Tidal Wave.  As for its non-unique spells, it's got Wall of Stone and Spike Growth.

*Desert*.  The main point of interest here is Silence.  It can help shut down casters, provided your party can also keep them from moving out of the area.  It can also help you out in the Exploration pillar.  And it's a ritual.  Blur faces stiff Concentration competition, while Create Food and Water is largely unnecessary for a person who can cast Goodberry.  Like Mountain, it also gets Wall of Stone.

*Arctic* will grab you Slow, which is a pretty solid CC.  And while Cone of Cold isn't exactly the best blast in D&D, Druids seriously don't have a lot of competition in the no-Concentration AoE blast department.  It also has one of the best selections of non-unique options to always have prepared, like Freedom of Movement, Sleet Storm, Spike Growth, and Hold Person.

*Underdark* has the most unique spells, but they're basically all Concentration, and the Druid has an excellent selection of Concentration spells already (it's easily the category of spells where they need the least help).  Greater Invisibility is probably the main highlight.  Just _how_ good it is will depend largely on your party composition.

*Grassland* will hand out Haste, Invisibility, and Divination.  Pass Without Trace and Freedom of Movement are nice things to always have prepared.

*Coast* leaps out at me as granting two good non-Concentration spells which have little competition for their role on the Druid spell list.  For non-uniques, Freedom of Movement and Conjure Elemental are nice to have prepared.

Misty Step in particular is fantastic to have, especially since (unlike a Moon Druid) you generally want to avoid melees and grapples and the like.  And Land Druids should always keep an eye out for bonus actions.

*Bonus Actions*
- Healing Spirit and, more situationally, Healing Word.  One of the things to notice about Healing Spirit is that it _upcasts quite well_.  You know that Lore Bard/Life Cleric Aura of Vitality combo that people were saying made for an insane healer in PHB-only?  Well Life Cleric 1/Druid X can match or exceed that healing with a Healing Spirit cast with the same third level slot.
- Racial features.  One fun option is the Goblin Hazard/Whip Druid who remains unseen throughout the fight (by bonus action Hiding at the end of every turn) while maintaining various hazards or summons and pulling people into them with Advantage Thorn Whips (occasionally appending Fury of the Small).  These are the ninja guardians of nature.  Another option is the Shifter from Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron.

- Misty Step (Coast Druid)
- Heat Metal uses a bonus action to maintain its effect.  It's situational, but against certain enemies it's quite crippling.
- Flaming Sphere is yet another 2nd level spell option, though the damage is rather underwhelming unless you're able to land it multiple times per turn.  Unfortunately, _pushing someone into the sphere doesn't damage them by RAW_.  Which seems weird to me, but I don't write the rules.  It's also competing with some Concentration options that don't take actions to maintain at all.
- Grasping Vine can pull someone around the map, but takes Concentration (which you'll often want for creating hazards you want to pull people into in the first place).
-Activate Shillelagh or Magic Stone or Flame Blade.  Buuut we're often better off just throwing out a cantrip rather than what is basically a normal attack.  Flame Blade is extra bad because it takes your Concentration.  Magic Stone at least lets you hand out stuff to mooks who have little better to do with their actions.  If you really want to have a half-decent melee attack with Shillelagh, my recommendation would be to try to pick up one of the SCAGtrips from somewhere (like Variant Half-Elf).

*Resourceless Output*
A Land Druid should not hoard their spell slots; the entire point is that you get more of them than other Druids.  That said, I think my favorite option for resourceless combat contribution is Create Bonfire + Thorn Whip.  

*Create Bonfire* is an AoE hazard (yes, a 5-foot cube can potentially hit multiple creatures), and can potentially deal its damage multiple times per round by knocking enemies through the area.  It uses Concentration, but that doesn't matter nearly as much if you're not using spell slots anyways.  You can also march it along at the front of the party, so that it's up right when a combat starts (and might even block off enemies who win initiative when you open a doorway or something).  And it can provide a ranged light source while you're at it.  It's worth noting that there's no risk of your allies taking damage from getting thrown into the fire, either, because you can just drop Concentration at any time, even when it's not your turn.  *Especially* valuable if you have a good grappler or the like in your party.

*Thorn Whip* combos with this, dealing some damage and allowing you to pull enemies into hazards (like your Create Bonfire) or otherwise troublesome positions.  If you can get a height advantage over your enemy, you can also use it to make them fall (and when a creature falls, they land prone).  The fact that's it's magical piercing damage also means that basically nothing resists it. 

If you're going the Goblin route, you even get to make the attack roll with Advantage (having hidden on a previous turn) and then use your bonus action at the end of your turn to Hide again!

While this works well enough with just you, try teaming up with (for example) a Warlock with Repelling Blast and a grappler frontliner and watch those bonfire dice really stack up!

Also note that having a teammate pressuring an enemy is one of the reasons why Thorn Whip's 10 feet of movement is often enough; an enemy will often try to circle out of the Bonfire but still be in range of your frontliner, so that they don't have to eat an OA.  That keeps them within 10 feet of the bonfire, _or_ gets your team an OA.  Win/win.



Now that I've answered the four questions I posed, here are some actual builds:

*Build 5:  The Lifeguard (Coastal Life Druid)*
Note:  Healing Spirit is a controversial spell widely regarded as overpowered.  So much so, in fact, that Jeremy Crawford himself recommended a houserule for it.  As such, this build will be assuming you're using that nerf, just because I expect that the spell will be accepted at more tables that way.  If you're using the RAW version, you don't need to change anything; the build is just _even better_.

*Edit*:  Hey, Healing Spirit got officially nerfed by errata!  So good thing I wasn't counting on getting the old version  :Small Wink: 

Disclaimer out of the way, here's a build that will provide lots and lots of healing.


VHuman Life Cleric 1 / Land Druid (Coast) X
Starting stats:  WIS>CON>at least 14 Dex OR 15 Str
ASIs:  Resilient (+1 Constitution), Max Wis, Lucky, Warcaster, Prodigy (Perception)
Cantrips:  Thorn Whip, Create Bonfire, Guidance, Shape Water, Fire Bolt (Rakdos)
GGtR Guild Affiliation:  Rakdos

This build focuses on pumping out massive amounts of healing (in and out of combat) while keeping you safe and using potent CCs (including potent non-Concentration CCs) while you're at it.  And it can make people trigger the OAs of all of their summons and allies.  And like all Druids, has the versatility of knowing their full spell list.

*Armor*
The Life Cleric dip means we're free to choose between either the Medium Armor or Heavy Armor route (and both are fine).  Medium Armor means we can invest more in Dexterity for better initiative, Dex saves (which are more important than Str saves), and have a smoother progression (e.g. better AC with default / starting armors) at the cost of 1 less AC in the long run.

*Healing*
The main strategy here is to take advantage of the Life Cleric dip's synergy with the Druid spell list to give you some of the best healing in the game.  The first component of this is Goodberry; at the end of an adventuring day, you basically can convert all of your leftover spell slots into a giant pile of potions for the next day.  Every single slot spent on Goodberry in this way gives you a whopping 40 hp worth of potions (or 50 with a level 2 slot, 60 with level 3, etc due to how the Life Domain ability works), and _doesn't cut into your spell slots for the following day_.  It just lasts 24 hours, so you can make all of these right before you Long Rest and have 'em in the morning.  Hand them out to the party (especially minions and pets!) and now everyone can pick everyone up off the death gate. 

The second component of this is Healing Spirit.  Each tick with give you 1d6+4 healing, it can potentially tick on multiple allies multiple times per round (though it doesn't need to to be worth it), and it only takes a bonus action to cast it or move it around... and as a Land Druid you don't have a whole lot else to do with your bonus action.  Also notable is that Healing Spirit upcasts very well.  For example, with a third level slot it will heal 2d6+5 per tick, essentially making it a (mostly) superior version of the old Life Domain + Aura of Vitality combo that Lore Bards were doing in core.  And that trick was already great.  

Later on you get things like Heal to be able to just burst people back up to full.  And you have options like Command and Plant Growth for powerful CC that doesn't mess with your Healing Spirit Concentration (and Land's Stride means that you can walk through that Plant Growth!).  Abilities like Land's Stride, Nature's Sanctuary, Misty Step, and Mirror Image (combined with your reliable Concentration feats) means that disrupting you can be quite difficult for the enemy.

Altogether this can _really_ cut into enemy DPR and make your party very hard to put down or keep down.  You might initially think that 2d6+5 just sounds like a normal attack, but remember that healing auto-hits, while attacks don't, and that this is just a bonus action, and that it can tick multiple times per round.  To get a proper sense of how good this healing is, you should be comparing your output to enemy DPR (counting miss chance and such) rather than just their potential damage-on-hit.  Add onto that the fact that the party will be topped off on HP at the start of every new encounter and you're a force multiplier for your party's survivability.

*Rakdos and Cleric spells*
But wait, healing isn't your only good trick that not every Land Druid can do.  I'm not going to reiterate a whole spell guide for Druids here though, and just stick to what Rakdos and Cleric can add for you.  Our Rakdos affiliation means that not only can we summon a ton of creatures with spells like Conjure Animals, but after we make them swarm the enemy, we can cast Dissonant Whispers on them in order to make them trigger tons of OAs, dealing considerable damage.  It also means that we can hit back with Hellish Rebuke if they think attacking the back line caster is a good idea.  Or cast Haste.  Or Fire Wall as another thing we can Thorn Whip people through.  It also means that we get an actually decent ranged damage cantrip, which Druids usually don't have.

Cleric, on the other hand, mostly adds Bless (an excellent use of Concentration), Command (a rare non-Concentration CC which can be upcast as an AoE, very handy), Sanctuary (another bonus action!  And no Concentration!  We need those for Land Druids!), and Guiding Bolt (handy at low levels).  That's about it for the notable adds.

If you would rather not be affiiated with Rakdos, see "variants" below.

*Feats*
Resilient is there mainly to make your Concentration better.  Lucky does that and also a bunch of other things.  Warcaster is also mainly there to make your Concentration better.  Prodigy will make you spot everything.  The order of feats can be changed up as you like, except that Resilient and Max Wis should be first, and Prodigy provides more benefits the higher your Proficiency is.  If you rolled for stats and thus don't need to spend as many ASIs maxing Wisdom, see "variants" for further options.

*Cantrips*
We use Thorn Whip and Create Bonfire in the way described above in "Resourceless Output."  Guidance is spammed liberally out of combat.  Shape Water is to be used creatively.  Fire Bolt gives us a long range option.

*Variants: * 
- Some other good races for this include Loxodon, Shifter, Hill Dwarf, and Aarakocra.  Stats should be adjusted accordingly.  For example, if you're a Hill Dwarf with Point Buy, dump Strength, start with 17 Con, and bump it to 18 when you get Resilient.
- The Observant feat is excellent and synergistic with some of the above races.  Great choice if you have an odd Wisdom score.  
- Alert is always a goodie.
- The Defensive Duelist feat will give you an at-will +6 AC reaction at high levels.  It could be worth considering for the level 19 ASI.  You just have to hold a weapon, not actually attack anyone with it.
- Prodigy can of course just be augmenting whatever skill you like.
- Magic Initiate could give you a better damage cantrip at higher levels, like Toll the Dead.  And grab you a familiar or the like while you're at it.
- If you drop the Rakdos affiliation, replace "Fire Bolt" with something like "Frostbite" or "Mold Earth."

*Build 6:  Goblin Hazard Druid*

Goblin Land Druid 20
Starting stats (Point Buy):  17 Dex / 16 Con / 15 Wis
ASIs:  +1 Wis/Dex (18/16), +2 Wis (18), +2 Wis (20), +2 Dex (20), Lucky
Land type:  Either Coast, Underdark, Grassland, or Arctic.
Guild Affiliation options:  Rakdos has some good adds if you're gonna take one (Dissonant Whispers + summons is a thing).  Orzhov is an option for Spirit Guardians (which also has synergy with Thorn Whip). 

This solves the "Land Druids don't have a lot of bonus actions" problem by being a Goblin.  Being a Goblin means you spend all your time stealthed, You break stealth to do whatever your Action is (with Advantage if it's an attack, like Thorn Whip or Fire Bolt with Rakdos), then use your bonus action at the end of your turn to return to stealth.  Being a Goblin also means you can tack on some extra damage in a pinch with Fury of the Small.

You basically set down Concentration effects (often hazards such as Sleet Storm or Spike Growth or Create Bonfire, or summons such as Conjure Animals) and harass people with Thorn Whip or other non-Concentration spells.  And just do pretty much all the standard Land Druid things while spending most of your time stealthed.  Take advantage of Land's Stride to help kite people.

This guy teams up well with things like grapplers or Repelling Blast Warlocks.

----------


## TheUser

Love the Arcana Cleric frontliner.
The interactions with booming blade, thorn whip and sacred guardians make this guy such a cool tanky support I absolutely love.

Really good in those tightly packed encounters.

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## LudicSavant

> These are really nice and entertaining to read, thank you!
> 
> Care to help me with a build?
> I'm thinking about a tank with the options for good damage and decent control.


How about a Dex-based Eldritch Knight 12 / War Mage 8 focusing on using Shadow Blade?  Can also use Mage Armor to get plate-like AC while still being stealthy and having a great initiative.  Bonus points for being able to magically summon all of your arms and armor and have 26 AC in a ball gown.  

Arcane Deflection + Indomitable + Lucky all stack to give you great save coverage.  Warding Wind is a good spell on the Abjuration/Evocation list which protects you and everyone behind you from ranged attacks (and some other things).  War Caster will help keep your Concentration up, and SB / WC / Booming Blade OAs will make you stickier than the average Fighter.  Shadow Blade gives you fantastic damage scaling as a Fighter and this build has enough spell slots to be casting it every encounter (by around mid-levels).

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## Maan

> How about a Dex-based Eldritch Knight 12 / War Mage 8 focusing on using Shadow Blade?  Can also use Mage Armor to get plate-like AC while still being stealthy and having a great initiative.  Bonus points for being able to magically summon all of your arms and armor and have 26 AC in a ball gown.  
> 
> Arcane Deflection + Indomitable + Lucky all stack to give you great save coverage.  Warding Wind is a good spell on the Abjuration/Evocation list which protects you and everyone behind you from ranged attacks (and some other things).  War Caster will help keep your Concentration up, and SB / WC / Booming Blade OAs will make you stickier than the average Fighter.  Shadow Blade gives you fantastic damage scaling as a Fighter and this build has enough spell slots to be casting it every encounter (by around mid-levels).


Whoopsie, forgot to mention: we'll be starting with level 5 characters, at least; maybe 6 or 7.
So I would need something viable from that level onward.

----------


## Antarx

Ï would like to add something.

S.A.D. HELLSONG, the bard from hell
Songs for your party, Hell for the DM

The build is simple Flying tiefling Hexblade Warlock 1 (or 3), Lore Bard X
Stats: Char > Dex > Con > whatever (note that flying tiefling is a option for any tiefling, with or without "feral" stats replacement
Feats: Char, Warcaster, ritual caster.  Optional: Lucky, Spell sniper, Inspiring leader
Spells Warlock: Eldritch blast, booming blade or green flame blade, shield, hex or armor of agathys,
Bard, Vicious mockery, friends, feather fall, healing word, hypnotic pattern, invisibility, heat metal, silence, counterspell, conjure animals  

*Build summary*
This build has a lot of room for customization and maintain his strengths as debuffer.
With vicious mockery (action), hypnotic pattern (con, action), heat metal (conc, bonus action), silence (conc), cutting words (reaction) and counterspell (reaction) you can lock down virtually anything you may face. BBEG Heavy warrior? Heat metal on his armor, cutting words and kite him flying. BBEG Caster? Silence, hex (disavantanje on dex checks) and grapple him, or counterspell as needed, or use cutting words to make his "disintegrates"  "failtegrates"

Also, you can fill any other role.
*Tank.*  18 AC with breastplate, shield and +2 dex. With "shield" spell and cutting words you can reach AC23 easily, without magic items. Armor of agathys gives you extra HP that scales greatly with a full caster spare spell slots. 
*Melee*  Warcaster, booming blade, hexblade curse (crit on 19+) and charisma to melee, you can dish some good damage without investing any resources. Spell sniper allows to use a whip, for the same damage and safer reach (move to 10, booming blade the enemy, and move back. Now the enemy stays still, or triggers the BB extra damage). And with warcaster and magical secrets, you can get paladin smite spells for crits.
*Range* Eldritch blast with agonizing blast from a safe flying distance, thanks to spell sniper.
*Healing* With your talent to negate enemy hits, you don't need so much healing, but healing word for emergencies is enough. Song of rest gives extra restoration. And you still have 6 more magical secrets for healing spirits if you really need them
*Skillmonkey* You are a bard. You have 3 skills, 3 more from lore bard, and 2 from background, and expertise. I suggest Criminal background, for extra tools proficiency. 
*Spellcaster* You are a full spelcaster, with a free 1st level slot per short rest. You can even use any spell from any other class. Nobody else can do it better than you. But thanks to ritual caster, you can cast even more utility spells
*Blasting* You can learn fireball just for fun... Because you have fire resistance and proficiency on dex saves, so casting fireball just on you to burn all those enemy melee suckers is a viable tactic.
*Scouting* You can cast invisibility and fly You have proficiency in perception (or at least, you should). You can cast find familiar from ritual caster. All the bases covered here.
*Minion-mancy* Geas, animate objets, summon X, find familiar, summon grater steed... all of them are at your reach. 


For extra fun, invest all you money in an Axe-guitar, so you can use your music instrument as spell focus and rock as hell.

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## LudicSavant

> Whoopsie, forgot to mention: we'll be starting with level 5 characters, at least; maybe 6 or 7.
> So I would need something viable from that level onward.


The Eldritch Knight build is viable from 1-20.  

Basically Fighters have a swell time from 1-12.  It jumps off into Wizard at 12 because at that point the Fighter progression slows down a bit; you'd have to wait all the way to level 20 to get another extra attack and that XGtE War Magic school has a lot to offer both in the short and long run.

There is one common mistake I see with EK that gives some people a negative experience with them:  They somehow get it into their head that they should be using spells like "Scorching Ray" that rely on their second-rate Intelligence scores.  Don't do this!  Look for spells that don't rely on your Intelligence score, and ones that augment your martial abilities rather than replacing them.

----------


## Maan

> The Eldritch Knight build is viable from 1-20.  
> 
> Basically Fighters have a swell time from 1-12.  It jumps off into Wizard at 12 because at that point the Fighter progression slows down a bit; you'd have to wait all the way to level 20 to get another extra attack and that XGtE War Magic school has a lot to offer both in the short and long run.


Thanks for the clarification, wasn't sure where you thought one should multiclass into Wizard.
Arcane Deflection + Tactical Wit no doubt are tempting...

----------


## Lysimarchos

> Ï would like to add something.
> 
> S.A.D. HELLSONG, the bard from hell
> Songs for your party, Hell for the DM
> 
> The build is simple Flying tiefling Hexblade Warlock 1 (or 3), Lore Bard X
> Stats: Char > Dex > Con > whatever (note that flying tiefling is a option for any tiefling, with or without "feral" stats replacement
> Feats: Char, Warcaster, ritual caster.  Optional: Lucky, Spell sniper, Inspiring leader
> Spells Warlock: Eldritch blast, booming blade or green flame blade, shield, hex or armor of agathys,
> ...


I'm currently playing a similar Bard/Hexblade, but I'm using College of Swords, and boy is it fun to play. You can do nearly anything and go anywhere on the battlefield, it's crazy versatile.

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## Pyramid Pug

Sup folks wonderful thread and very informative, especially since I usually play in small parties so I tend to cover as many bases as I can while still having fun.

This is my current character:

- Hill Dwarf, Lvl 9 War Cleric.
- 16 str, 11 dex, 16 con, 13 int, 19 wis, 11 char
- Warcaster feat
-For story reasons, uses a specific warhammer and usually a shield (tho the shield isn't mandatory like the warhammer). 
- Currently gearless (we're prisioners on a penal island).
- Party is a Berserk Barbarian/ Fighter 8/1 and a Thief Rogue 8/1 as well.

Reading this thread I really enjoyed the thorn whip and Booming Blade shenanigans with spirit guardians (which has been a workhorse of mine since I got it) so I was wondering a few things..

-What ways are there to get cantrips outside my class without multiclassing? (probably with feats I'd guess)

- On the next ASL I wanna bump my Wis to 20, ya folks got any suggestions on what half-feat I should get or should I bump Wis and another stat?

-What other combos with spells/ feats would be interesting to get/try? I don't mean just in combat here as I'm kinda the generalist of the party, so stuff like utility, intel gathering (outside of sneaking which our rogue has covered), and other support stuff you folks can think of.

-On a related note, is there anything that can help me getting by unnoticed? 'Cause with 11 dex, no prof in stealth and (usually) heavy armor, I've dun goofed more times than not when it would benefit the party to be hidden (once with a shadow dragon, was epic and even got some bonus xp out of it, but yeah, not looking forward to repeat that trick 😂)

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## LudicSavant

> -What ways are there to get cantrips outside my class without multiclassing? (probably with feats I'd guess)


> Magic Initiate Feat
> Races:  High Elf, SCAG variant half-elf, or Mark of Making Human
> Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica backgrounds
> Magic Items

*Edit*:



> - On the next ASL I wanna bump my Wis to 20, ya folks got any suggestions on what half-feat I should get or should I bump Wis and another stat?


Here's a list of all of the half-feats organized by the stats they boost:  http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ats-They-Boost

So... given that you already have Wis proficiency your choice is basically just between Observant and +1 Wis / +1 something else (probably Dex).

Thankfully, Observant is a very good half-feat... at least if your DM remembers to use the passive perception rules.

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## Maan

Just for theorycrafting sake: would it be viable multiclassing your "Woodelf Magic Commando" to Wizard, let's say at level 12?
Eldritch Knight-ish build, I guess War Wizard or Abjuration could work fine.

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## LudicSavant

> Just for theorycrafting sake: would it be viable multiclassing your "Woodelf Magic Commando" to Wizard, let's say at level 12?
> Eldritch Knight-ish build, I guess War Wizard or Abjuration could work fine.


I guess my question would be why you wouldnt be an EK if you were planning to jump off into Wizard.

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## Maan

> I guess my question would be why you wouldnt be an EK if you were planning to jump off into Wizard.


Maybe I don't find the EK features too appealing, or don't really get them.

Let's see, a full EK build would get:
4, 3, 3, 1 spells.
War Magic: looks nice when you have 2 attacks, effectively replacing one of them with a cantrip (BB it's an easy choice); less so when you have 3 or 4 attacks.
Improved War Magic makes War Magic look a bit better, though I can't really think of situations where a spell + 1 attack will make a real difference against either a single spell or 3-4 attacks. Especially because I see EK spells mostly as self-support.
Arcane Charge is nice to have but hardly game changing. Pretty much like Weapon Bond.
Eldritch Strike is no doubt powerful. Disadvantage can help landing a spell even if you DC isn't optimal.

On the other hand a, say, BM 12/Wizard 8 would get:
4, 3, 3, 2 spells. Also, without limitations in school chosen.
All the BM manouvers, that can give some nice versatility.
It would be missing Indomitable (x2) and (x3), though this could be remedied by just taking Lucky Feat (you can afford to spare an ASI with a Fighter); Action Surge (x2); a fourth attack; one ASI (not that you have too few of those, TBH).
On top of that you get Arcane Tradition at level 2 and 6: Arcane Ward, or Portent, or Arcane Deflection + Tactical Wit.

Thinking about this, a 2 levels dip into War Wizard could actually be pretty nice for a Dex EK...

----------


## Nhorianscum

> Maybe I don't find the EK features too appealing, or don't really get them.
> 
> Let's see, a full EK build would get:
> 4, 3, 3, 1 spells.
> War Magic: looks nice when you have 2 attacks, effectively replacing one of them with a cantrip (BB it's an easy choice); less so when you have 3 or 4 attacks.
> Improved War Magic makes War Magic look a bit better, though I can't really think of situations where a spell + 1 attack will make a real difference against either a single spell or 3-4 attacks. Especially because I see EK spells mostly as self-support.
> Arcane Charge is nice to have but hardly game changing. Pretty much like Weapon Bond.
> Eldritch Strike is no doubt powerful. Disadvantage can help landing a spell even if you DC isn't optimal.
> 
> ...


11/9 is almost always the better split for 5th level spells and fighter is pretty free after 11. That said non-EK fighters prefer sorc/warlock for hard spam on 5th's. War wizard 2/6 is just also good on everything.

11/9 EK has 4/3/3/3/2/1 which is a little more hefty in terms of power and is a slightly better comparison point.

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## Petrocorus

Good day everyone.

I am playing the Arcane Cleric with Shillelagh in a ToA campaign by now. My goddess is Mystra.

I had been working on this build independently on my side (with a Wood Elf basis), until i talked about it to LudicSavant on another thread and he shown me all the work that had already been done on it.

The DM has been generous and gave us a bonus feat at level 1. So 2 feats for Vuman. We started at level 3. I took the Sailor background.
I made some changes with the build presented by LudicSavant, though. 

Because the DM has decided to put an emphasis on the "survivalist" part of the campaign, i took Resilient (Con) at level 1 instead of Warcaster because Saves against exhaustion, diseases and unintentional poisoning (like food poisoning) is going to be a thing.

For the same reason, i took Goodberries instead of Absorb Element with the Magic Initiate feat. I also took Guidance with the feat to free a Cleric cantrip slot for Light. Half of the party is human or aaracokra, and the DM is apparently willing to play hard on the obscurity situations.

We just reached level 4. I raised my Wis. Stats are now 10 / 14 / 14 / 12 / 18 / 10.

My skills are Arcana, Athletics, Stealth, History, Perception, Insight. 
My Cleric cantrips are Sacred Flame, Word of Radiance, Light, Mending (taken at lvl 4). 
My Druid cantrips are Guidance and Shillelagh. 
My Wizard cantrips are Green Flame Blade and the second one remains to be defined (the DM allowed it), i'm hesitating between Prestidigitation, Mage Hand and Booming Blade. I didn't take BB outright because i'm not sure to take Warcaster before level 12 and this combo is my main incentive to take BB in addition of 3 other attack cantrip and Shillelagh.

So far the build is working well, as well as i could expect given the environmental circumstances and my less than stellar rolls. I've made an extensive use of Shillelagh and Spiritual Weapon. GFB and WoR have not been very useful yet as we have faced mostly single big foes.

I feel like i lack a real nova, but my ongoing damages per turn are neat. I support with Bless and Aid (i like to use it as a poor man's Mass Healing Word). I've been useful to the party in most of situations, including social ones thanks to my Insight.

----------


## LudicSavant

> 11/9 is almost always the better split for 5th level spells and fighter is pretty free after 11. That said non-EK fighters prefer sorc/warlock for hard spam on 5th's. War wizard 2/6 is just also good on everything.
> 
> 11/9 EK has 4/3/3/3/2/1 which is a little more hefty in terms of power and is a slightly better comparison point.


The thing about 11/9 EK is that they have the same spell slots as a 12/8 EK.  Both will have 4/3/3/3/2/1, but one will have an extra ASI and the other will be able to learn 5th level spells at 20 and only 20.  The reason for this is because the multiclassing rules make the EK divide their levels by 3 and round down (so 11 levels = 3 spellcasting levels, while 12 = 4 spellcasting levels).

If you are a Battle Master, however, the 11/9 split is probably better, because it actually makes a difference in the spell slots you have access to (4/3/3/3/1 over 4/3/3/2)




> Maybe I don't find the EK features too appealing, or don't really get them.
> 
> Let's see, a full EK build would get:
> 4, 3, 3, 1 spells.
> War Magic: looks nice when you have 2 attacks, effectively replacing one of them with a cantrip (BB it's an easy choice); less so when you have 3 or 4 attacks.
> Improved War Magic makes War Magic look a bit better, though I can't really think of situations where a spell + 1 attack will make a real difference against either a single spell or 3-4 attacks. Especially because I see EK spells mostly as self-support.
> Arcane Charge is nice to have but hardly game changing. Pretty much like Weapon Bond.
> Eldritch Strike is no doubt powerful. Disadvantage can help landing a spell even if you DC isn't optimal.
> 
> ...


It seems like it could be viable to me.  EK/Wizard will have a smoother progression overall, but BM will get maneuvers and doesn't scale its subclass features much beyond 11.  Consider BM 11 / War Wizard 9.  At 20 you'll even be able to do a 5th level Shadow Blade / Action Surge nova, albeit only 1/day.  Being able to stack maneuvers on top of that is pretty nasty.

Pure EK 20's advantages would be having an extra Action Surge / rest, 3 Indomitables (which stack with Lucky), 2 extra ASIs compared to be BM11/9, about 18 extra hit points (plus 9 more per Short Rest via Second Wind), and of course a 4th attack at 20.  And of course all of the EK's features.  War Magic _mostly_ only matters at tier 2.  Arcane Charge will let you do a teleport that can't be counterspelled (which I always like).    Weapon Bond makes you immune to disarms (also it lets you summon/smuggle items).  And they'll still be able to cast quite a few spells, if a bit less than the BM setup in the long run.

----------


## sithlordnergal

heh, mind if I add my own into the mix?

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## Nhorianscum

> The thing about 11/9 EK is that they have the same spell slots as a 12/8 EK.  Both will have 4/3/3/3/2/1, but one will have an extra ASI and the other will be able to learn 5th level spells at 20 and only 20.  The reason for this is because the multiclassing rules make the EK divide their levels by 3 and round down (so 11 levels = 3 spellcasting levels, while 12 = 4 spellcasting levels)


EK is wonky overall, 11/9 is always a good comparison point though. I just avoid the 12/8 split as 13 EK is 13 EK, 7 EK is 7 EK, 11 fighter is 11 fighter, and getting an "extra" ASI for our capstone is icky.

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## mahifish

These are the sorts of builds that I love. Happen to have anything interesting kicking around for Ranger or Monk? Those are the two I'm struggling to connect with.

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## McSkrag

> Ask and ye shall receive!  
> 
> 9) Big Damn Wizard Spells. This part only comes online at level 17+ so I won't spend too much time on it, but you get a 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level Wizard spell known, and there are some golden choices on the Wizard list for your purposes, like Contingency or Foresight.


*What you you all choose for your "Big Damn Wizard Spells" and why?*

I would go with:

6th : Globe of Invulnerability - Solid defense for a tank facing mages
7th : Forcecage - Excellent battlefield control spell 
8th : Maze - For when you really need to take a big dumb baddie out of combat for a few rounds
9th : Wish - because being able to cast ANY OTHER spell of 8th or lower is just too good.

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## KyleG

> These are the sorts of builds that I love. Happen to have anything interesting kicking around for Ranger or Monk? Those are the two I'm struggling to connect with.


I want to play a squib Eladrin Monk with only the teleport feature. And Not just that he cant use magic but magic doesn't affect him kinda like in the sword of truth series.
_"Magic can not directly harm someone who is pristinely ungifted, it can harm them indirectly. A bolt of lightning, conjured by a sorceress, will in itself not injure the pristinely ungifted, but shards of rock sent flying by the conjured bolt would still be capable of wounding them. "_

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## Antarx

> heh, mind if I add my own into the mix?


yes, please.

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## sithlordnergal

Perfect!

*The Fey Knight*

*Race:* Half-Elf

*Classes*

Oath of the Ancients Paladin: 8Circle of Dreams Druid: 11Celestial Sorcerer: 1

*Feats and Needed Cantrips*

Polearm MasterWarcasterShillelagh


*Build Summary*

This is mostly a support build. You should focus on your Wisdom before anything else, since that's where most of your spells are coming from, and will have access to 6th level Druid spells. You'll also have goodies like Aura of Protection to boost the saves of your allies, resistance to spell damage from Ancients Paladin, Lay on Hands and Balm of the Summer Court for some quick healing that can't be Counterspelled, and a mix of 1st level Cleric and Sorcerer spells. Eventually you'll gain the ability to teleport around the battlefield, or teleport your allies, with Hidden Paths, giving you some better mobility options and a way to save a friend if they need it. And best of all, most of those abilities don't use spells and are bonus actions, meaning you can use them and still cast something.

But just because this is a support class doesn't mean you can't hold your own in a fight. If you can get your hands on non-metal plate armor, which is do-able even in AL, you're be pretty tanky on top of all that, especially with Shield from the Sorcerer. And your damage is great too, since you can use Shillelagh to make your Quarterstaff magical, key off wisdom, and do a d8 instead of a d6. Mix that with Extra Attack, PaM's bonus action attack, and plenty of spell slots to Smite with, and you have a strong mix.

But that's not all, you're also a shoe in for magical staffs. Since you have Druid and Sorcerer, you can use almost any magical staff, such as Staff of the Woodlands, Staff of Power, or even just a Staff of Fire. While that is DM/Campaign dependent, the fact that you can use almost any staff you come across is a wonderful boon. Especially since this is an Adventures League legal build.


*Strengths:*

Support capabilities, to and including protecting self and allies from spellsOn demand, non-spell, and some bonus action HealingAccess to Druid, Paladin, Sorcerer, and Cleric (if you go Celestial) spells/cantripsAbility to tank extremly well, though it is dependant on DMCan NOVA hard thanks to Smite, plenty of spell slots, and PaM bonus action attackIs AL Legal


*Weaknesses:*

Too many Concentration spells thanks to Druid and PladinReliance on Spell Slots for Casting and SmiteReliance on DM for decent Armor, or requires Scorpion Armor from ToA if playing ALOne of the most MAD builds I've madeAlmost requires you to be Half-Elf if doing Point Buy

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## MeeposFire

Heh I have to admit that Celestial gneralist looks like a lot of fun I will have to look into that for the future.  It just shows again to me that people who think that most of the warlock sucks does not know what they are talking bout.

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## Fryy

> Ask and ye shall receive!  
> 
> Herein are collected some builds that were made in response to advice threads and the like.  Since these were responses to specific questions, I have tried to summarize the context for each.  All of them are good from level 1-20 and can perform in all 3 pillars of play.  
> 
> Hopefully these help provide people with some ideas for fun and viable builds.  Enjoy!


Could you make an AL legal (PBH +1) version of the Celestial Generalist?

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## MeeposFire

> Could you make an AL legal (PBH +1) version of the Celestial Generalist?


Isn't all the important parts of that build already AL legal?  Unless variant human is not aloud in which case pick a different race and be down one ASI.

EDIT:  Got it you are probably worried about booming blade and the like.  You could just use one of your other attack cantrips not quite as good but still effective and then you can dump shillelagh to pick up some other fun cantrip.

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## Fryy

> EDIT:  Got it you are probably worried about booming blade and the like.  You could just use one of your other attack cantrips not quite as good but still effective and then you can dump shillelagh to pick up some other fun cantrip.


Exactly, you would lose both the SCAG blade cantrips which seems to take some bite out of the 'melee' aspect of this build. I do like the Arcana Cleric build (also in the first post) very much.

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## MeeposFire

> Exactly, you would lose both the SCAG blade cantrips which seems to take some bite out of the 'melee' aspect of this build. I do like the Arcana Cleric build (also in the first post) very much.


Yea Arcana clerics are fun.

As for the warlock it would depend on what you want to get out of the melee aspect in AL.

For instance if the important bit is to be able to deal a great deal of damage in melee range you could add crossbow expert since it would allow you to use eldritch blast up close with no problems.  In order to get that you would likely need to delay getting warcaster, drop warcaster, or drop an ASI.  This would not help opportunity attacks though in slight compensation you would gain back three cantrips (you would replace the two weapon ones and shillelagh would no longer be needed) so there would be that.

Or if you really like the opportunity attack aspect and want to keep warcaster just where it is you could just use sacred flame.  Yes the damage is not quite as high since you do not get the additional bonus damage from them moving like you would with booming blade but you do get your celestial damage bonus to it and it is still better damage on an opportunity attack than most classes get (3d8+cha mod is decent at level 12).  Since it is a saving throw it would have no issues being used in melee range.

I think for AL the second option would provide the most bang for your buck and would be thematic to boot though it would be slightly less effective when used.  Though remember that you do get three more cantrips that way and if you pick some fun ones you could be even more versatile than the original build while only losing  a few dice of damage on the probably relatively rare opportunity attack (if the target does not move sacred flame does essentially the same damage as booming blade for you) for instance now you can pick up minor illusion how is that for versatility?

Personally I think it is still very effective sounding to me.

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## Lysimarchos

Does anyone have any Spore Druid builds? It's one of the weaker Druid subclasses, but it's such a cool concept.

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## Nhorianscum

> Does anyone have any Spore Druid builds? It's one of the weaker Druid subclasses, but it's such a cool concept.


Spore is kinda dumbstrong if and only of you abuse the hell out of animate dead. The symbiote is just more undead and concentration maintaining temp hp bloat.

Undead do suck in tier 3. Good thing we get animal shaped.

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## LudicSavant

> heh, mind if I add my own into the mix?


Not at all!  Go for it  :Small Smile: 





> I've made a Hobgoblin Wizard and a Shadar-kai Fighter (Samurai) at your recommendation, but haven't played them yet so feel free to expand on them if you like. Any other Wizard goodness you like to share, feel free.


Sure.  Hobgoblin first.

*Build 7:  Hobgoblin Iron Wizard*
All the fun of a straight-classed God Wizard with no delays whatsoever to spell learning progression, except without the squish.  

In fact, you are so non-squishy that your durability outclasses many martials, all while having the devastating arcane powers that come with an undiluted Wizard 20 progression.


Hobgoblin Abjurer 1-20
Stats (Point Buy):  16 Int / 17 Con / 15 Dex (You can lower Con to 15 and/or Dex to 13 if you want more in other stats)
ASIs:  Moderately Armored (+1 Dex), 20 Int, Resilient (+1 Con), Lucky

*Spoiler: Race Choice*
Show

Our race is Hobgoblin, for a few reasons.

First, it has ideal stat modifiers for point buy builds.  +1 Int means you don't need to take any more ASIs than necessary to max Int.  +2 Con means that you can start with 17 and have it get bumped up to 18 when you take that one half-feat every Wizard loves, Resilient (Con).

Second, your access to light armor means you can take the Moderately Armored half-feat to bump your Dex and give you Half-Plate and a Shield.  This gives you a base 19 AC (plus the ability to benefit from magic shields and armor).  And as a Wizard, you have lots of abilities that act as force multipliers on your base AC, which means that ultimately you end up harder to kill than many martials.  While other races grant Medium Armor proficiency outright, they don't give you that important shield proficiency.

Third, Saving Face is just *amazing*.  It lets you get a +5 bonus to a saving throw (or other type of d20 roll) *after seeing the roll*, once per *short* rest.  And while getting the full bonus requires you to have 5 allies visible within 30 feet of you, this requirement is very easy to meet, since it totally counts familiars and skeletons and paladin mounts and the like.  Compare to getting the ever-popular Lucky feat.

Those are the main reasons.  Some icing on the top is that you get a better weapon proficiency (relevant at tier 1), and that your proficiency in light armor means that you don't need to spend any precious level 1 spell slots on Mage Armor at levels 1-3, and that you get Darkvision.


Being an Abjurer means that you have higher HP than a Fighter (your Ward makes up the difference in HD size and then some), and the 18 Con puts you even further ahead of the usual HP curve.  And you have the base AC of a Dex+Shield Fighter.  And you know how people keep saying that EKs are the tankiest Fighters because of their defensive spells?  Well you get all of those defensive spells (Shield/Absorb Elements/etc), plus lots more slots for them, plus even better defensive spells (via higher level slots).  And Save Face + Lucky + Resilient + Spell Resistance + defensive spells means your saves are pretty ironclad across the board.

Later on, you get Spell Resistance (which gives you Advantage on saves against spells, and resistance against damage from spells), which means you are basically as durable against spells as a Yuan-Ti Ancients Paladin with a boosted Counterspell.

Your Concentration is very difficult to break when it counts, too.  First the enemy has to succeed at hitting you at all (getting past your control effects, then hitting your high AC through all your defensive abilities, etc), then you can reduce the damage you take with your ward and/or Endure Elements or Spell Resistance for a lower DC save, and then you've got up to a +15 / Lucky Constitution saving throw.  

Your martial weapon proficiency only really matters at tier 1, when firing crossbows is better than cantrips.  Unlike the other Wizards, you'll be firing a Heavy instead of a Light one for a little extra damage.  If you want, you can even mix things up with Booming Blade in melee (in which case, see variants for War Caster).  Another, more important tier 1 benefit is that you'll be spending a lot less spell slots on defensive spells.  You only need to use Shield AFTER something misses you, which will happen considerably less.  And you only need to use Mage Armor if you don't already have armor.  This means you'll have noticeably more spell slots in the early game.

The real upshot is that you get these benefits while having a true uninterrupted spell progression.  You get your Fireballs and Hypnotic Patterns at level 5, not 6.  You get your Contingency at level 11, not 12.  And so forth.  Basically your plan is to do standard God Wizard things about as well as any other God Wizard, while just happening to be Made of Iron: surviving more damage than the party Fighter and having ironclad Concentration.

*Spoiler: Some important notes on Abjuration spells*
Show


I'm not going to reproduce an entire Wizard guide here (perhaps something for later...), but I will comment on some of the notable Abjuration spells, just so you have a handy reference for stuff that recharges your ward and is worth picking up with Abjuration Savant.

*Globe of Invulnerability*:  The obvious use is keeping your enemy's spells out.  A non-obvious, creative, and powerful use is using it to "Sculpt" spells around your globe.  Note that you can target places within the globe, people inside are just excluded from the effects!  Have fun with that.

Like that one?  Then you'll go nuts for the next one:  If you (or your party members) cast a spell within a Globe of Invulnerability, *you can't be counterspelled* (even by an upcast counterspell!)  (Yes, really!)

*Shield*:  So let me tell you a bit about armor class.  It has _increasing returns_.  As in, the graph for your effective hit points relative to the enemy's chance of hitting you looks like this:

_Note:  Graph necessarily doesn't take into account crit chances, since how much that impacts the curve is monster-specific.  But the curve retains its general shape._

So this spell was already great mitigation when it was being used by standard 15-or-so AC Wizards.  For you, it's much better.  Large enemy groups especially have almost no chance of hitting you, which is a big deal because for many builds those guys are incredibly deadly throughout the game.

Not only will you be considerably harder to hit when Shield is activated, it's also better for you because you'll end up spending less spell slots on it than a typical Wizard, since people will be hitting your _base_ AC less often.

When you reach tier 4, you can and probably should take this as one of your Spell Mastery choices, allowing you to boost your AC at will as well as recharge your ward to full quickly.

*Absorb Elements*:  Fantastic mitigation that becomes even better now that it regenerates your ward.  Yeah, it only regains 2, but look at it this way: the Life Domain's perk only restores 3 extra.  Every bit counts.

Combined with your good saving throws on demand (via Saving Face, and later Resilient and Lucky), you can cut down tons of damage from save effects.

*Mage Armor*:  This is an essential pick for _other_ Wizards.  For you, it's entirely unnecessary, which means you basically have an extra spell slot compared to other Wizards.  Very noticeable at early levels. 

*Alarm (Ritual)*:  A ritual that converts downtime into ward points.  And makes your downtime safer to boot.  And yes, this is the only Abjuration ritual on the Wizard spell list.

*Banishment*:  One of the best single target lockdown spells just so happens to be Abjuration.

*Counterspell*:  The Abjurer's Counterspell is the best version of Counterspell, and it restores your ward too.

*Protection from Good and Evil*:  This is a situational spell that competes for your Concentration, but very good at the situations it excels at.  And "aberrations, celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead" isn't exactly a small chunk of the Monster Manuals as it is!  

Full on immunity to fear, charms (which _tons_ of effects in 5e key off of, way more than people seem to generally realize, from Dominate to Hypnotic Pattern to harpy songs), and possession.  Disadvantage on all of the monster's attacks.  First level spell slot.  This is fantastic value if you're fighting the right creature types.

For comparison, Blur is a second level Concentration spell that only does the "disadvantage on attacks" part, but is self-only and has a tenth of the duration and monsters that don't rely on sight (or can see through illusions) can get around it.



*Edit (more commentary!)*  Another cool thing about the Abjurer I should mention is that it's tougher to kill your otherwise squishy adds.  Your familiar might actually survive a hit thanks to your Ward reaction, so things like Dragon's Breath become more reliable.  It also makes it even easier to get the full bonus from Saving Face.

Even more importantly, later on your Simulacrum (which normally has half-hit points, and those hit points are costly to restore) has a regenerating, projectable ward of their own.  To get an idea of the difference this makes in durability, a 14 Con Wizard at L13 has 80 hit points, and their Simulacrum has just 40.  *Your* Simulacrum has 46 base hit points, plus a 31 hit point Ward, plus you can project your own ward in order to shield them... for a total of 108 hit points before your Simulacrum goes down.  And that's before we count them generating temp HP with spell slots, or regenerating wards (way easier than regenerating Simulacrum hit points), and so forth.

Oh, and of course, that 62 hit points worth of Ward between the two of you can be projected to any of your allies.

By level 20, it's 90 hit points of ward between the two of you, and you can regenerate it at-will using Spell Mastery: Shield.  And you can just project that onto anyone in the party as needed.  In the mid-high level Abjurer's world, everyone is iron.

Variants/Notes:
You can pick any Wizard subclass with a Moderately Armored Hobgoblin, really.  Abjurer just makes the comparison to the Fighter's durability that much more straightforward.  :Small Wink:   Anyways, want to make, say, a War Wizard who gets +9 or more to all saves at level 2?  You can do that.I would always take Moderately Armored first and Lucky last, but other than that you can take the ASIs in whatever order depending on your priorities and playstyle.The Svirfneblin Abjurer is another option that often gets brought up; it'll have more ward regeneration but ultimately can be burst down more easily than the Hobgoblin in many situations.  You'd basically replace Moderately Armored with the Svirfneblin magic feat that lets them cast Nondetection (an Abjuration spell that recharges your ward) at will.  Note that the Svirf will have only a 25 ft movement speed, lower Constitution, Gnome Cunning won't stack with Spell Resistance, and the ward regeneration advantage largely becomes irrelevant in tier 4 (when they get Spell Mastery).You can lower the Dex to 14 with no loss in AC; it just benefits your Dex saves, Initiative, and low level resourceless options.If you roll stats, you might have extra slots for feats.  In which case, here are some good ones:
War Caster for even better Concentration saves (the main reason to take it), and the ability to Booming Blade or Banish people who try to walk away from you when they realize they can't hit you through Blur/Shield or whatever.Alert, for the same reason it's good for everyone.

Let me know your thoughts!

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## Mercurias

Oh man these are awesome.

I was wondering if anyone had a crazy-awesome Earth Genasi Ancestors or Zealot Barbarian laying around. I've been tweaking my backup for my new campaign to fit the current party.

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## Yakmala

I've played both the Celestial Tomelock and the Arcana Cleric Magic Initiate and really enjoyed them both.

The Wood Elf Battlemaster is going on my "to play" list.  Great write up!  The one thing I'll likely change is the order of the ASI's.  I'll start with a 17 Dex and pick up Elven Accuracy first as suggested, but then follow that up with Ritual Caster at level 6 for Find Familiar.  The plan is to use the Owl for a help action on the first attack, triggering the Elven Accuracy for a Trip Attack.  If the Trip works, then I'll have Elven Accuracy for the second attack as well, while helping any other melee types in the party.

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## Sparky McDibben

Hobgoblin wizard _looks so cool!!!_

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## mahifish

Hiya! I really love the way you build characters, and was wondering if you could help me with a character I want to play, but I'm struggling on finding something that really feels right.

I know I want to play a lizardfolk, and that I want to play a low magic class.  By that I mean a class whose primary function isn't as a spell caster, but some incidental casting is ok (ranger or paladin spells for example). I'd be open to any combination of ranger, barbarian, rogue, monk, and fighter.  I want to specifically avoid wizard, sorcerer and cleric, but might be swayed by hexblade warlock if it were melee or ranged focused.  I have a soft spot for druids, but if going druid I'd want to focus primarily on the wild shapes.  I'm not sure how viable that is in 5e though. The anti-synergy with barbarian and monk's armor kinda stumped me, but those were the first ones I looked at. 

We use point buy, but in the past we were able to convince the DM to let us roll and use that if it ended up better.  

One of my thoughts were that the ranger or druid would have an affinity for reptiles and insects and shun mammals, but I don't know where to take that.

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## LudicSavant

> Hiya! I really love the way you build characters, and was wondering if you could help me with a character I want to play, but I'm struggling on finding something that really feels right.
> 
> I know I want to play a lizardfolk, and that I want to play a low magic class.  By that I mean a class whose primary function isn't as a spell caster, but some incidental casting is ok (ranger or paladin spells for example). I'd be open to any combination of ranger, barbarian, rogue, monk, and fighter.  I want to specifically avoid wizard, sorcerer and cleric, but might be swayed by hexblade warlock if it were melee or ranged focused.  I have a soft spot for druids, but if going druid I'd want to focus primarily on the wild shapes.  I'm not sure how viable that is in 5e though. The anti-synergy with barbarian and monk's armor kinda stumped me, but those were the first ones I looked at. 
> 
> We use point buy, but in the past we were able to convince the DM to let us roll and use that if it ended up better.  
> 
> One of my thoughts were that the ranger or druid would have an affinity for reptiles and insects and shun mammals, but I don't know where to take that.


Lizardfolk are a lot of fun, lore-wise.

Mechanically though, they're tricky, because they're kinda anti-synergistic and none of their individual abilities are really stellar.  Their natural armor doesn't do anything unless it's on a Dex build (or perhaps someone who would otherwise have no armor at all, like a Wizard), and won't work with Barbarians or Monks.  Their natural weapons and Hungry Jaws want you to make Strength-based attacks (and use Constitution for the number of temp hp).  And their statline has neither Dex nor Strength nor a casting stat for unarmored casters.  And they don't have Darkvision.

As you can see, they're kind of all over the place.   You generally benefit from Natural Armor OR Hungry Jaws OR fit snugly with their stat typing... but only one of those.  And the rest of their abilities are just skill proficiencies and ribbons.  I guess you could maybe argue that Hungry Jaws can be used to chow down on things out of combat (and thus not care about Strength), but some DMs might get gamey and say that you can only engage in a feeding frenzy "in battle" due to the first line of the ability.  On the other hand, carrying around a live chicken to devour does seem like a rather Lizardfolky thing to do.

So we want a non-caster, that minimizes our MADness, and benefits from our racial features.

For a Barbarian, Ancestral Guardian or Zealot could be a decent choice.   Both subclasses lack bonus actions, and have abilities that enjoy having the occasional extra attack from Hungry Jaws (e.g. you want to make sure their level 3 abilities proc).  Also, a grappler Barbarian will appreciate the ability to attack (via bite) while wielding a shield and holding a foe down.  Unfortunately your natural armor won't be doing you any favors.  The main concern will be that you have to wait all the way until level 12 to max your Strength, and that's if you don't get any full feats at all before that point.  The only half-feat worth considering for +1 Strength would be Tavern Brawler.  Alternatively you could start with 15 Str / 17 Con and get a +1/+1 ASI.  Whatever way you slice it, your main schtick will be to shove people prone and grapple them so that they can't go anywhere, then bite away despite having your hands full.

For a Dex Fighter, the extra ASIs mean that you can potentially max your stat as early as level 8.  Your Natural Armor will allow you to have +1 AC over mundane half-plate while retaining your full stealth ability... almost like you took the Medium Armor Master feat.    Hungry Jaws can still give you a few extra hit points from disabled foes or the like.  You can start with 13 Str / 15 Dex / 16 Con / 14 Wis, get +1 Str/Dex on your first ASI, and have an at least half-decent bonus action attack 1/SR.  Max out your Dex by level 8, and sneak around trying to ambush people with your good Stealth.  Go Battlemaster and use a rapier.

PS: I found this thing, which you might find helpful:  https://www.reddit.com/r/3d6/comment...folk_handbook/

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## Citadel97501

I was wondering if anyone has an effective ranged flying character that comes online by level 10?  Mounted or self flying is fine by me, I am kind of interested in something like that as I haven't had an opportunity to try out an aerial battle yet.  I was thinking Sword Bard would be easiest due to Find Greater Steed, and Mobile Flourish would let you slaughter enemy mounted flyers, while you might want to use some method of restraining to make a natural flyer fall.  

Bard is not required, as I am willing to try most things.  I know the Warlock was suggested as an option, in an old guide but I am not sure of a reliable method to let them fly.  

Notes: 3 rare magic items at most, any printed options are OK, the game is set in Ravnica if that helps.

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## LudicSavant

> I was wondering if anyone has an effective ranged flying character that comes online by level 10?  Mounted or self flying is fine by me, I am kind of interested in something like that as I haven't had an opportunity to try out an aerial battle yet.  I was thinking Sword Bard would be easiest due to Find Greater Steed, and Mobile Flourish would let you slaughter enemy mounted flyers, while you might want to use some method of restraining to make a natural flyer fall.  
> 
> Bard is not required, as I am willing to try most things.  I know the Warlock was suggested as an option, in an old guide but I am not sure of a reliable method to let them fly.  
> 
> Notes: 3 rare magic items at most, any printed options are OK, the game is set in Ravnica if that helps.


Lots of options here.  

One way to get flight is the racial route.  Be a Winged Tiefling or an Aarakocra and come online at level 1.  If permanent flight isn't allowed (entirely reasonable choice for a DM) then Protector Aasimar Warlocks work too for coming online at level 1, and have proper stats for a Warlock.  There are also magic items that will grant you consistent flight, since you mentioned those.  And in Ravnica, the Simic Hybrid has some crazy movement tricks with Manta Glide (since falling doesn't consume your move speed, and it converts falling distance into vertical distance)

You ideally want some form of flight where you aren't concentrating on yourself, OR a really good Concentration and some sort of contingency plan for if you fall (taking falling damage + landing prone so enemies follow up with Advantage is usually bad news for you if you if you're playing at a challenging table).

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## Nhorianscum

> I was wondering if anyone has an effective ranged flying character that comes online by level 10?  Mounted or self flying is fine by me, I am kind of interested in something like that as I haven't had an opportunity to try out an aerial battle yet.  I was thinking Sword Bard would be easiest due to Find Greater Steed, and Mobile Flourish would let you slaughter enemy mounted flyers, while you might want to use some method of restraining to make a natural flyer fall.  
> 
> Bard is not required, as I am willing to try most things.  I know the Warlock was suggested as an option, in an old guide but I am not sure of a reliable method to let them fly.  
> 
> Notes: 3 rare magic items at most, any printed options are OK, the game is set in Ravnica if that helps.


Orzhova Glamor Bard.

Snag find greater steed along with expertise in animal handling and athletics. Snag mounted combatant, Crack double spirit guardians and spam command "fall" on anything with wings.

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## LudicSavant

> Orzhova Glamor Bard.
> 
> Snag find greater steed along with expertise in animal handling and athletics. Snag mounted combatant, Crack double spirit guardians and spam command "fall" on anything with wings.


Unfortunately doubling Spirit Guardians doesn't work.  Remember:  the "Range" line of a spell only defines the initial target, not all of the targets of the spell effect.  Spirit Guardians initially targets you, but also targets an area.  When in doubt, remember that per the general spell rules in the PHB, creatures that make a save against the spell DC are also targets of the spell.  This is why (for instance) Fireball or Symbol refers to creatures caught in the area as "targets," even though Fireball initially targets a point and Symbol initially targets an object.

Some relevant references:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/06/04...mbo-with-steed
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/05/22...arget-only-you
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/com...geting_spells/

That said, Spirit Guardians is still great and well worth flying around with.   :Small Smile:

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## Nhorianscum

> Unfortunately doubling Spirit Guardians doesn't work.  Remember:  the "Range" line of a spell only defines the initial target, not all of the targets of the spell effect.  Spirit Guardians initially targets you, but also targets an area.  When in doubt, remember that per the general spell rules in the PHB, creatures that make a save against the spell DC are also targets of the spell.  This is why (for instance) Fireball or Symbol refers to creatures caught in the area as "targets," even though Fireball initially targets a point and Symbol initially targets an object.
> 
> Some relevant references:
> https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/06/04...mbo-with-steed
> https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/05/22...arget-only-you
> https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/com...geting_spells/
> 
> That said, Spirit Guardians is still great and well worth flying around with.


Eh. Double SG doesn't work for more RAW reasons in that the same creature cannot be buffed/debuffed by identical spells. 

It's purely for style as all of your spirits also have mounts now!

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## Sol

Why aren't Tortle's listed as a variant way for the druids to obtain okay AC? 

Relatedly, any unexpectedly good/fun (preferably non-druid, since I just played a druid) Tortle builds?

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## KorvinStarmast

Friar Struk is aimed at a "Robin Hood and his Merry Men" kind of play group.  Also good for urban/intrigue games.  

This isn't built as an optimized anything, and there's another option I am still mulling over that starts with a Druid Magic Initiate at the beginning: because they live in Sherwood Forest.    

*Concept*: Struk is a deceptively good brawler starting at level 2.  He is also a supporter, and all around roguish cleric/unfrocked monk, starting at level 3, and Does Not Wear Armor.  That's part of the theme.  He uses a Quarterstaff; that's part of the theme. (Now and again a dagger or short sword will be used to pick up that bit of Sneak Attack damage, but not all that often.  

*Monk 1/ Rogue 1/ Cleric (Trickery) X*
*vHuman* (PB = 11, 15, 11, 10, 15, 8); Feat = resilient Con
S 12 D 16 C 12 I 10 W 16 Ch 8    
Background: Criminal. 
Skills: (Monk) Athletics, Insight; (Criminal) Stealth; Deception (vH): Perception.  
Tools: Dice, _Disguise Kit_ (work this out with the DM (custom background, PHB 126) since he'll pick up thieves' tools at level 1 Rogue when he MC's ... 

Build Order: Monk 1, Rogue 1; Cleric(Trickery) X   

The level 2 choice to pick up Rogue, besides being thematic, is to get Expetise in Athletics.  He is +5 to athletic checks (Equivalent to a fighter with 16 Str) and at Level 5 is +7 at athletic checks: with a 12 Strength.   He's able to grapple or shove with some expectation of allowing his martial compadres to take adantage of proned targets.    

Picks up Thieves' Tools proficiency, as well as expertise in either Deception or Persuasion.  

This overcomes his generally bad Charisma somewhat - if there is a face on the party (a Robin, or an Alan Adale) he could put that expertise into Perception or Insight.  As every drunken monk knows, "_In Vino Veritas_."     :Small Big Grin:  Tailor this to fit what the party could use a boost on.
The real fun comes with level 1 of Trickery Domain Cleric.  
Domain Spell fun: _Charm Person; Disguise Self_.  
Handy for situations where the player/party is trying to get past guards/soldiers/trouble. 

Blessing of the Trickster: _.. touch a willing creature other than yourself to give it advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks. This blessing lasts for 1 hour or until you use this feature again . (PHB, Trickery Domain)_ Help someone in the party go sneak in somewhere.  

At Cleric Level 2: more shennanigans with a perfect double.  (Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity)  

At Cleric Level 3, we find:  _Mirror Image; Pass without trace_ 
_Mirror Image_ renders AC moot for a few rounds, since the enemy hits "not you" three times.  _Pass Without Trace_ provides some "get out of town" chances for the whole party - the Merry Men run off to hide in the forest .... 

Thematic Spell Choice! _Enhance Ability_ for advantage on Athletics Checks: shove, etc.  



> Bulls Strength. The target has advantage on Strength checks, and his or her carrying capacity doubles.


Cleric Level 5: _Blink, Dispel Magic_
They can't hit what just blinked away (AC mitigation); Dispel Magic helps get your mates out of trouble.

Cleric level 7: _Dimension Door, Polymorph_
More ways to "not be there when they try to hit me" or to set up the case of "Haha, try fighting a gorilla, pal!"

Between the need for a boost in Charisma checks mentioned above, and Athletics checks, Guidance looks like a "must" cantrip for this character concept at the first level of Cleric.   

ASI recommendation: boosting Wisdom at the first ASI
Spell DC and AC are both boosted at level 4 (PC level 6).  I'd suggest that the following ASI also be Wisdom (PC level 10) which boosts your spell DC as well as increase your armor class to 20.  

That said, applying an AI to Dexterity may be needed more "to hit" and for those Dexterity saving throws that crop up with some frequency.  Already proficient in Dex saves, as being a Monk first. If by level 10 cleric is at 8, the spell DC boost makes your Save DC tougher on a wide variety of spells that can confound the enemy.  
IMO, the support role unlocks at level 3/Cleric 1. Bless and Shield of Faith are important to this approach. This is for the group.   Eventually boost Constitution with an ASI.  

Depending on how many levels up this game goes: add another level of Monk to get a few ki points and more movement, evasion, dash options (The Friar chuckles as he taunts his foes "Betcha didn't think I was that quick!") to try and avoid hits ... or ... add another level in Rogue to use Disengage as a Cunning Action. If you are not there, you can't be hit.  
If they chase you they might give allies a chance for Opportunity Attack.

What appears to be a big and beefy oaf, a hard drinking cleric ... is a bit more than he appears.  Not smart, not handsome, appears to be a beefy drunk.  Looks can be deceiving, and you are harder to hit than it looks.  

Role: a combination of support, brawler, and trickster (though not optimized with high Charisma) who is surprisingly effective at a variety of Athletic moves, and whose spells make the party better.  What's more, in the brawler theme, you have an uncommon aptitude for knocking people on their butts (Shove/Prone) so that your allies can hit them with advantage. Now and again be able to shove a foe out of a window, or off of a cliff.

----------


## LudicSavant

> Why aren't Tortle's listed as a variant way for the druids to obtain okay AC?


Because alas, I don't own the Tortle package.

----------


## Orc_Lord

Thanks for posting the Hob Wizard build. I had read your thoughts on that build in another post and stalked your history to find more about it, but this is a lot more clear.

----------


## The Grumbleputt

This thread alone is reason enough to join this forum- thanks for your hard work and clear explanations on all of these ideas. 

I'd vote for any interesting Monk ideas you cook up, but really, everything has been valuable so far.

----------


## Klorox

Awesome thread, Im so glad I found it!

Question though: why do the Generalist warlock and Hobgoblin Iron Wizards aim for a 16 DEX when their armors are only effective to +2? It just seems like a waste of points when were concerned about point buy.

I have played a very similar arcana cleric, and loved it. 

That hobgoblin and celestial warlock look so freaking cool!

----------


## LudicSavant

> Awesome thread, Im so glad I found it!
> 
> Question though: why do the Generalist warlock and Hobgoblin Iron Wizards aim for a 16 DEX when their armors are only effective to +2? It just seems like a waste of points when were concerned about point buy.
> 
> I have played a very similar arcana cleric, and loved it. 
> 
> That hobgoblin and celestial warlock look so freaking cool!


Good question!  It's true; raising your Dex above 14 doesn't raise your AC any further.  However the choice is indeed intentional.

The reason I take it anyways is because I value Initiative (the higher the challenge level of the table, the more important it is), Dex saves, dex skills, and the occasional extra Dex-based attack at low levels, and because the +1 Dex from Moderately Armored makes it convenient.  It's kinda similar to the reason why I don't like to dump Dexterity even on Strength builds; the stat is good even if you're not getting AC from it.  You can easily drop it from 16 to 14 if you like (as I note in "variants" for the Iron Wizard), and spend the points somewhere else.  But extra points in Dexterity are by no means wasted IMHO; it's not like investing in, say, Strength instead would have gotten you an AC bonus either.

Contrast this possible statline for the Hobgoblin Iron Wizard:
8/15/17/16/8/8

With this one:
8/14/17/16/10/8  

Or this one:
8/13/17/16/10/10

All of those have the same point buy cost.  #3 will make you extra vulnerable in levels 1-3 (with a weaker resourceless attack and AC).  #2 is basically just exchanging +2 Dex for +2 Wis.  All are viable, so you can decide between boosting Dex, Str, Wis, or Cha for character concept reasons.  All of the above will basically just grant skills and saves (and init in Dex's case).  And if you're starting above level 4, option 3 becomes a bit more attractive than it otherwise would be.  But if not, I'm not fond of #3 because levels 1-3 are where Wizards are the least godlike.




> This thread alone is reason enough to join this forum- thanks for your hard work and clear explanations on all of these ideas.


 :Small Red Face:

----------


## Klorox

> Good question!  It's true; raising your Dex above 14 doesn't raise your AC any further.  However the choice is indeed intentional.
> 
> The reason I take it anyways is because I value Initiative (the higher the challenge level of the table, the more important it is), Dex saves, dex skills, and the occasional extra Dex-based attack at low levels, and because the +1 Dex from Moderately Armored makes it convenient.  It's kinda similar to the reason why I don't like to dump Dexterity even on Strength builds; the stat is good even if you're not getting AC from it.  You can easily drop it from 16 to 14 if you like (as I note in "variants" for the Iron Wizard), and spend the points somewhere else.  But extra points in Dexterity are by no means wasted IMHO; it's not like investing in, say, Strength instead would have gotten you an AC bonus either.
> 
> Contrast this possible statline for the Hobgoblin Iron Wizard:
> 8/15/17/16/8/8
> 
> With this one:
> 8/14/17/16/10/8  
> ...


thanks for the response. 

I agree that more DEX always helps, I just dont value a DEX above 14 while wearing medium armor in a point buy system (especially if you have no plans of going for medium armor mastery). 

I see the value you present, I just think the points help more elsewhere. 

YMMV

----------


## Lyracian

I am loving these; what I really like is that they are mostly single class builds as I was expecting to see lots of cheeze three class combo!

2: Shield and Spear Valkyrie
I already have Find Greater Steed down for my Bard and will play this if I ever go with a Paladin.  It actually makes me think of Death Ward as a Magical Secret option now.

3: Wood Elf Magic Commando
Again I love the versatility here.  Very easy to adjust slightly if you wanted, for instance, to play a Human or a Rogue.
My one comment would be to add Magic Initiate as a WE Magic alternative for those not useing XGtE.
You still get Guidance and can have Goodberry as your spell.  Not quite as powerful as 'Pass without Trace' but gives some versatility with healing/free food.  Second cantrip could be 'Thorn Whip' for pulling opponents off squishy party members or 'Produce Flame' for rule of cool.

7: Hobgoblin Iron Wizard
This makes me look at Mountain Dwarf and feel sad.  Have you thought of any good builds that make use of the free Armour proficiency they get?  My only idea was the Str based Rogue/Barbarian multi-class.  Taking Barbarian you gain Shield use and can fight with a Rapier to still get Sneak Attack damage while using Reckless Attack.

----------


## Dilanio

Any eclectic ideas for a bard/ranger build. Was thinking of a horizon Walker duelist but our group all has to start as bards. Struggling on a build. My rolled stats were actually pretty good. 10 str/ 16 dex / 15 con / 16 wis / 13 Int / 15 Cha. Was picturing a dueling master who is also an orator who tells the stories of his victories. Any thoughts on how to make this work? Seems really MAD dependent. Probably going all the way to 12 with this campaign I was told.

----------


## Zigludo

> [Re: mountain dwarves] Have you thought of any good builds that make use of the free Armour proficiency they get?  My only idea was the Str based Rogue/Barbarian multi-class.  Taking Barbarian you gain Shield use and can fight with a Rapier to still get Sneak Attack damage while using Reckless Attack.


Seems redundant. Barbarians already get the medium armor proficiency that Mtn. Dwarf does. 

I have seen / toyed with a very, very silly Mtn. Dwarf Draconic Sorcerer that manages not only to take advantage of the free Armour proficiency, but also Dwarven Weapon Training.

Here's the silly part: You max all your physical ability scores and dump all the mental ones. Okay, now that that's out of the way, your strategy revolves around Quickening (and Twinning,  whenever available) a Booming Blade attack every single turn. 

Basically you have equal melee damage output to a Fighter using a greatsword with no feats, if you can believe that. At certain breakpoints you're actually better in melee than a fighter (level 8 thanks to the ASI, level 17 thanks to cantrips jumping ahead of Fighter's extra attack.) If your opponent needs to move on its turn, you'll also out damage the Fighter that way. And if you set up Twinned Booming Blades, you'll basically always out damage the Fighter. Your survivability is marginally worse than a Fighter's. Your spell accuracy becomes quite bad, but you are super effective at maintaining concentration. In the meantime you have full spellcasting progression. 

There are other variants on the same idea, like an unarmored version using Elf or Variant Human, grabbing Weapon Master for a Rapier, then maximizing DEX/CON/CHA. This version gets to add CHA modifier to damage via Green Flame Blade. But I would prefer Booming Blade generally since I find it tends to be easier to trigger the extra damage from BB than from GFB. And overall I think the Mountain Dwarf version is best, for its slightly better early damage and MUCH better early survivability.

(Plus it's funnier. I mean it's a melee sorcerer mountain dwarf with terrible mental stats who just runs at people wearing armor and hits them with his axe instead of casting spells. And it gets major swag points in my book for being mono-class with no feats.)

----------


## Klorox

> Seems redundant. Barbarians already get the medium armor proficiency that Mtn. Dwarf does. 
> 
> I have seen / toyed with a very, very silly Mtn. Dwarf Draconic Sorcerer that manages not only to take advantage of the free Armour proficiency, but also Dwarven Weapon Training.
> 
> Here's the silly part: You max all your physical ability scores and dump all the mental ones. Okay, now that that's out of the way, your strategy revolves around Quickening (and Twinning,  whenever available) a Booming Blade attack every single turn. 
> 
> Basically you have equal melee damage output to a Fighter using a greatsword with no feats, if you can believe that. At certain breakpoints you're actually better in melee than a fighter (level 8 thanks to the ASI, level 17 thanks to cantrips jumping ahead of Fighter's extra attack.) If your opponent needs to move on its turn, you'll also out damage the Fighter that way. And if you set up Twinned Booming Blades, you'll basically always out damage the Fighter. Your survivability is marginally worse than a Fighter's. Your spell accuracy becomes quite bad, but you are super effective at maintaining concentration. In the meantime you have full spellcasting progression. 
> 
> There are other variants on the same idea, like an unarmored version using Elf or Variant Human, grabbing Weapon Master for a Rapier, then maximizing DEX/CON/CHA. This version gets to add CHA modifier to damage via Green Flame Blade. But I would prefer Booming Blade generally since I find it tends to be easier to trigger the extra damage from BB than from GFB. And overall I think the Mountain Dwarf version is best, for its slightly better early damage and MUCH better early survivability.
> ...


This sounds great!

I want to see the total write up! LMAO

----------


## Lyracian

> Seems redundant. Barbarians already get the medium armor proficiency that Mtn. Dwarf does.


Read page 164 a Rogue that multi-classes into Barbarian does not get armour only Shield and weapons.  It is the only way to just get Shield use every other feat/class that gives shield also gives armour which overlaps with the starting proficiency.




> I have seen / toyed with a very, very silly Mtn. Dwarf Draconic Sorcerer that manages not only to take advantage of the free Armour proficiency, but also Dwarven Weapon Training.
> 
> Here's the silly part: You max all your physical ability scores and dump all the mental ones. Okay, now that that's out of the way, your strategy revolves around Quickening (and Twinning,  whenever available) a Booming Blade attack every single turn.


Amusing but using Medium Armour makes your Draconic Resilience AC meaningless but you do get the extra hit points and resistance and it makes good use of your Battle Axe skill.




> Any eclectic ideas for a bard/ranger build. Was thinking of a horizon Walker duelist but our group all has to start as bards. Struggling on a build. My rolled stats were actually pretty good. 10 str/ 16 dex / 15 con / 16 wis / 13 Int / 15 Cha. Was picturing a dueling master who is also an orator who tells the stories of his victories. Any thoughts on how to make this work? Seems really MAD dependent. Probably going all the way to 12 with this campaign I was told.


With those stats you should be able to be anything you want!  You only need Dex for weapon attacks and Charisma for Bard Spells as you are not likely to be using Ranger spells that need a save.  The main question is what level split are you thinking of?  Will you end up as Bard 1/Ranger 11? 4/8?

Starting Half-Elf lets you have 17 Dex and Chr pump them both to 18 at Level 4.
You could pump Int 14 and then take Res (Con) as next feat.

Human can start with Res (Con) and round Int and Chr giving you four 16's to start.

----------


## Dilanio

> With those stats you should be able to be anything you want!  You only need Dex for weapon attacks and Charisma for Bard Spells as you are not likely to be using Ranger spells that need a save.  The main question is what level split are you thinking of?  Will you end up as Bard 1/Ranger 11? 4/8?


See that is the thing. I don't know much about bards and while looking over their college wasn't sure if it was worthwhile to go swords or valour. Thematically I could make them work into my backstory but didn't know if by doing so I would drastically reduce my combat, scouting effectiveness.

I don't mind staying level 1 bard but we're starting at level 3 and since we're all going bards as well our DM is giving us a boon so we get to start with a feat as well.

Just struggling with fitting the bard into the ranger levels and didn't know if there were any oddball themes I could use to make a fun but effective character for the combat/ scouting parts of the campaign.

----------


## Lyracian

> See that is the thing. I don't know much about bards and while looking over their college wasn't sure if it was worthwhile to go swords or valour. Thematically I could make them work into my backstory but didn't know if by doing so I would drastically reduce my combat, scouting effectiveness.
> 
> I don't mind staying level 1 bard but we're starting at level 3 and since we're all going bards as well our DM is giving us a boon so we get to start with a feat as well.
> 
> Just struggling with fitting the bard into the ranger levels and didn't know if there were any oddball themes I could use to make a fun but effective character for the combat/ scouting parts of the campaign.


Your character concept was "a dueling master who is also an orator who tells the stories of his victories" which makes me ask why Ranger?  Bard/Ranger would be to get Archery Fighting Style, Extra Attack at Level 5 and Swift Quiver spells with Magical Secrets.  I would have thought Fighter or Rogue (Swashbuckler) would give you better fit for a Duelist.

The fighter level is best taken as the first level for the character to grant proficiency in con saves and heavy armor. Fighter 2 gives action surge. Eldritch Knight is a way for a bard to get shield spell, without taking sorcerer levels or using a magical secret and means your Fighter levels give you extra spell slots.  Sword Bard gives you a second Fighting Style and some Flourish moves.

Start with Defense (+1 AC) Style from Fighter and then take Dueling at level 4 Character when you are Fighter 1/Bard 3.  After that it depend if you want more Fighting or more Spells.  Remember if you go to Level 6 Bard you do not want to go past Level 4 Fighter (or the other way around if you take lots of Fighter) as Extra Attacks do not stack.

----------


## LudicSavant

Conceptually, "duelist" can mean an awful lot of things.  Spell duels are a thing, for instance.

If you want to be a Bard that dabbles in hitting people, I would recommend a Swords, Valor, or Whispers Bard.  The first two are the ones that people conventionally look at first when they think "Bard with a weapon," but Whispers Bard will actually grant you some great synergy with Booming Blade if you can pick it up (such as by a level 1 Hexblade dip that will make you Cha-SAD, or by being a SCAG-variant Half-Elf).

I actually kind of like this for the "Duelist" concept.  Maybe it's just that L5R 1e was one of the first TTRPGs I really got into, but when I think of a duelist I think of the man or woman preparing for a single ceremonial fight, who seeks to end their opponent in a single clean, masterful strike.  Possibly with them dying at the moment they sheathe their sword   :Small Wink: .  And for that the BB Whispers Bard can actually do pretty well (right down to the possibility of them dying _after_ your turn ends, from the rider).  

A single-class Half-Elf Whispers Bard getting Advantage on a single attack (much easier than getting Advantage on all of your attacks, because something like a Familiar can do it) can do something like use Booming Blade + Psychic Blades + Elven Accuracy to dish out significant damage (with a high crit chance for all of those dice).  They also keep their bonus action open, so they can throw on something like, I don't know, Banishing Smite and reliably take out a 150 hp creature in a single stroke (at higher levels).  Not bad at all for a backup action for a full spellcaster (which also means you can make a fine spellduelist).

_______


Next build will probably be one of the following:

- A build I've taken to referring to as "the soulknife." A stealthy, unarmored frontliner Eldritch Knight / War Wizard build that's durable, sticky, high DPR, lots of utility, and about as gear-independent as it gets.  They basically summon all of their armaments using abilities like Mage Armor and Shadow Blade.  One of the upshots of using Mage Armor is that you can get the AC of plate while using a Dex build, and retain full stealth capabilities.  Combines great with the "Shape Element" and Minor Illusion cantrips since they don't have Verbal components.

- A Shadar-Kai Sharpshooter Samurai, because I got asked about it earlier.  A simple yet very reliable DPR core for any party that scales incredibly well with buffs/party synergy.  I consider Samurai to be one of the Fighter subclasses with the highest potential (along with Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight), and the post would highlight why along with DPR analysis and the like.

- the Cha/Int blaster Wizard build I'm currently playing in a long-term campaign (running from tier 1-4).  Basically my take on the so-called "Nuclear Wizard" build which can potentially out-blast Sorlocks, come online faster, and retain all the versatility of being a Wizard.  And doesn't require Coffeelocking or anything of that sort.  The one I'm playing right now is an Asmodeus Tiefling, but the optimized version would probably be something else, like Yuan-Ti (for whom the Cha/Int typing is actually what you want for a change).

- A Shifter Inquisitor of the Silver Flame.  A blaster/hunter Cleric from Eberron that brings a lot of damage and detection abilities.

If any of those sound interesting lemme know.

----------


## Sparky McDibben

> Next build will probably be one of the following:
> 
> - A build I've taken to referring to as "the soulknife." A stealthy, unarmored frontliner Eldritch Knight / War Wizard build that's durable, sticky, high DPR, lots of utility, and about as gear-independent as it gets.  They basically summon all of their armaments using abilities like Mage Armor and Shadow Blade.  One of the upshots of using Mage Armor is that you can get the AC of plate while using a Dex build, and retain full stealth capabilities.  Combines great with the "Shape Element" and Minor Illusion cantrips since they don't have Verbal components.
> 
> - A Shadar-Kai Sharpshooter Samurai, because I got asked about it earlier.  A simple yet very reliable DPR core for any party that scales incredibly well with buffs/party synergy.  I consider Samurai to be one of the Fighter subclasses with the highest potential (along with Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight), and the post would highlight why along with DPR analysis and the like.
> 
> - the Cha/Int blaster Wizard build I'm currently playing in a long-term campaign (running from tier 1-4).  Basically my take on the so-called "Nuclear Wizard" build which can potentially out-blast Sorlocks, come online faster, and retain all the versatility of being a Wizard.  And doesn't require Coffeelocking or anything of that sort.  The one I'm playing right now is an Asmodeus Tiefling, but the optimized version would probably be something else, like Yuan-Ti (for whom the Cha/Int typing is actually what you want for a change).
> 
> - A Shifter Inquisitor of the Silver Flame.  A blaster/hunter Cleric from Eberron that brings a lot of damage and detection abilities.
> ...


Literally all of these sound like a lot of fun, but I'm most interested in options 1 and 3.

----------


## Zigludo

> Read page 164 a Rogue that multi-classes into Barbarian does not get armour only Shield and weapons.  It is the only way to just get Shield use every other feat/class that gives shield also gives armour which overlaps with the starting proficiency.


Yeah. I only meant that you could instead start Barbarian, get the medium armor proficiency that way, and then multi-class into the Rogue. (This also nets you an extra two hit points.) The mountain dwarf synergy feels less like "Mountain Dwarf Barbarian/Rogue gets to use medium armor," and more like "Mountain Dwarf Barbarian/Rogue gets to start Rogue and pick up an extra skill, along with Dexterity/Intelligence saving throw proficiency instead of the Barbarian's Strength/Constitution saving throws." But it is a valid synergy.




> Amusing but using Medium Armour makes your Draconic Resilience AC meaningless but you do get the extra hit points and resistance and it makes good use of your Battle Axe skill.


Indeed. For what it's worth, though, Sorcerers don't start at level 1 with scale mail; just the clothes on their back. So it does give you 3 extra AC until you can actually buy or find armor. 

It's difficult to take advantage of all Mountain Dwarf features at the same time without encountering redundancies. The Strength Sorcerer is the only one I've found that uses them all: Strength, Constitution, Armor and Weapon Training. I recommended Draconic Bloodline because I think the 1 extra HP per level is more helpful to the melee game-plan than the features of any other subclass are. Most of them have nothing helpful for melee at all - Sorcerer was obviously not designed for melee combat. To minimize redundancy and maximize elegance, pick Divine Soul for Bless and its ability to add 2d4 to an attack roll once per rest. 




> This sounds great!
> 
> I want to see the total write up! LMAO


Well, it won't be much longer; there isn't much more to say. Gameplay is quite simple. You can't multiclass thanks to your dumped CHA, and it doesn't require any feats, so the build progression is pretty straightforward. If you're curious to see the guts of the build, I guess I could write up numerical comparisons for damage output and survivability vs optimized GWM / PAM fighters (spoiler: they compare favorably), and then list a couple of notes about the Elf/Half-Elf/V. Human compromises (basically, better casting for less melee damage / survivability).

----------


## Lyracian

> Yeah. I only meant that you could instead start Barbarian, get the medium armor proficiency that way, and then multi-class into the Rogue. (This also nets you an extra two hit points.) The mountain dwarf synergy feels less like "Mountain Dwarf Barbarian/Rogue gets to use medium armor," and more like "Mountain Dwarf Barbarian/Rogue gets to start Rogue and pick up an extra skill, along with Dexterity/Intelligence saving throw proficiency instead of the Barbarian's Strength/Constitution saving throws." But it is a valid synergy.


You are actually trading 4 HP for the Extra Skill by starting Rogue.  I never tried to claim it was optimal only that it makes use of the Dwarven Medium Armour and Strength bonus.  For actual play you might want to start with 17 Str and rush to Rogue 4 first to get the ASI then take Barbarian at Level 5?  Final build would be Rogue 12/Barb 8.




> Indeed. For what it's worth, though, Sorcerers don't start at level 1 with scale mail; just the clothes on their back. So it does give you 3 extra AC until you can actually buy or find armor.


I would assume with an unusual character plan you wold roll for starting cash 3d4 ~70-80 Gold; Scale and Battleaxe are 60 which leaves change.

I think your Dwarf has an AC 16 and gets to do D10 damage with two handed Battleaxe?  Personally I would not let you twin Booming Blade; well you could Twin it but it would fail as you do not get a second Melee attack to activate it.  Might work if you were duel-wielding.  I think the Elf with Short Sword makes better use of the Draconic Armour and gets a higher overall AC once you pump Dex.  Either way it is a cool idea.





> - A Shadar-Kai Sharpshooter Samurai
> - the Cha/Int blaster Wizard build 
> If any of those sound interesting lemme know.


Blaster Caster sounds interesting as does Samurai.  Would be good if you added a variant/notes for those of us who only play PHB races.

----------


## Zigludo

> You are actually trading 4 HP for the Extra Skill by starting Rogue.


It looks like it should be 4 extra HP, doesn't it? But actually it's 2. It threw me off too, I had to run the math myself to make sure.

EDIT: That is a Rogue1/Barbarian1 with 10 Constitution who started Rogue has 15 hit points. A Rogue1/Barbarian1 with 10 Constitution who started Barbarian has 17 hit points. Obviously at 1st level the difference is 4 hit points





> I think your Dwarf has an AC 16 and gets to do D10 damage with two handed Battleaxe?  Personally I would not let you twin Booming Blade; well you could Twin it but it would fail as you do not get a second Melee attack to activate it.


Feel free to run it that way at your table, but per RAW RAI and Sage Advice, it works. The attack with the melee weapon is a part of the spell, which then gets twinned into two attacks the same way Fire Bolt does.




> I think the Elf with Short Sword makes better use of the Draconic Armour and gets a higher overall AC once you pump Dex. Either way it is a cool idea.


It has upsides. Since it uses Dexterity to attack instead of Strength, it is less MAD than the Mountain Dwarf version and can afford to put points into Charisma instead. Best with Shadar Kai or Sea Elf for that nice Constitution point. But the Mountain Dwarf version is quite a bit stronger early, gains a bonus point for not being dependent on the feat rule for weapon damage (which is optional), and is a lot more unorthodox / entertaining to me  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Dilanio

> Your character concept was "a dueling master who is also an orator who tells the stories of his victories" which makes me ask why Ranger?  Bard/Ranger would be to get Archery Fighting Style, Extra Attack at Level 5 and Swift Quiver spells with Magical Secrets.  I would have thought Fighter or Rogue (Swashbuckler) would give you better fit for a Duelist.


I fully agree with your fighter / rogue observation. So why Ranger? This will be my second game and my first game was well incredibly dull for me as I was overshadowed by a couple Paladins who became the faces of our party as well as our primary combatants. 

For my second game I wanted to go for a Ranger and be the scout for the party and originally I was going to Gloomstalker / Scout; and had a build and backstory worked out. Well we rolled our characters and a couple people wanted to be bards. I suggested an all bard party would be fun and the DM said if we all took one dip in bard we would get some boons for doing so. Not wanting to be the odd man out I agreed. My original class is the only one that doesn't really fit the bard build but I really had my heart set on a ranger build so I'm trying to make it work

----------


## Klorox

> It has upsides. Since it uses Dexterity to attack instead of Strength, it is less MAD than the Mountain Dwarf version and can afford to put points into Charisma instead. Best with Shadar Kai or Sea Elf for that nice Constitution point. But the Mountain Dwarf version is quite a bit stronger early, gains a bonus point for not being dependent on the feat rule for weapon damage (which is optional), and is a lot more unorthodox / entertaining to me


Whats the feat rule for weapon damage? Im a little lost.

----------


## Zigludo

> Whats the feat rule for weapon damage? Im a little lost.


Sorry, I just meant that, in order to gain proficiency with a finesse weapon that deals higher damage (ideally a rapier), a Sea Elf or Shadar Kai would need to use the Weapon Master Feat, and that feats are an optional rule that not every table uses. (Or they could multiclass, but that's also an optional rule.) Otherwise they're stuck with daggers (d4). V. Humans can also just start with Weapon Master and get Rapiers that way.

High Elves get the shortsword without a feat, but I don't prefer that because they have lower constitution than Shadar Kai / Sea Elves, and the shortsword also does a bit less damage (d6) than the rapier (d8). 

The mountain dwarf gets to use a battleaxe (d10 in both hands) right off the bat. (Also the mountain dwarf sticks to the Adventurer's League's PHB + 1 restriction. The only non-PHB content it needs is Booming Blade.)

----------


## LudicSavant

So just thought I'd leave some basic DPR benchmarks here, so that we can compare other builds to them later and offer a basic sense of scale.  Unless otherwise noted all calculations are against a target with the "typical" AC for a monster of level = CR according to the DMG (so for example, if it's a level 20 build it's DPR vs AC 19), crit chance and the like are accounted for, and decimal results are rounded to the nearest tenth.

Note that there are a lot of calculations here, so hopefully I didn't have a typo anywhere.  If I made a mistake somewhere, please correct me.

*Basic Sorlock DPR Math*
First, the *Sorcerer/Hexblade's* EB combo from "Boss Damage Combination at Max Level" from this guide.  Note that the guide's calculation doesn't take into account variables like hit chance and the like.  I did.
Round 1 (EB+HC):  45.1 DPR
Round 2 (EB+HC+Hex):  55.6 DPR
Round 3+ (EB*2+HC+Hex):  111.2 DPR
Average DPR if they get 3 full rounds of blasting the same target (and only in that case, because everything takes bonus actions to change targets, and you can't prebuff any of this):  (45.1+55.6+111.2)/3 = *70.6 DPR*

Note that the 70.6 DPR requires you be using 1/SR Hexblade's Curse, Hex, and 2 sorcery points _and_ to be attacking the same target for 3 entire rounds... meaning you can't be killing them all that fast, and you can't switch to another target after they go down (at least, not without decreasing your DPR).  If they go down on round 2, for example, you only contributed an average of ~50.4 DPR across those two rounds.
*Basic GWM Champion DPR Math*
Numbers are a Champion with 20 Strength, Great Weapon Master, Superior Critical, Great Weapon Fighting, and a greatsword.  Note that this calculation includes everything, right down to the chance of getting a bonus action attack from Great Weapon Master.

*At level 20 exactly*:
4 attacks (resourceless DPR):  47.4 DPR
4 attacks (Advantage on all attacks):  81.5 DPR
8 attacks (Action Surge):  92.4 DPR
8 attacks (Advantage Action Surge):  153.9 DPR

It's noteworthy that Fighters get a big DPR jump at _exactly_ level 20, so it's often more helpful to know their DPR before they get that fourth attack.  So for example, here's the numbers for level 19:

*At level 19*:
3 attacks (resourceless DPR):  35.8 DPR
w/ Advantage:  62.5 DPR
Action Surge (Nova DPR):  70.1 DPR
w/ Advantage:  118.3 DPR
*Bloodcloud's Eldritch Blast Knight*:
Based on the build posted here:  http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...3&postcount=90 

*At level 17+*
Listed "at will" combo: 34.8 DPR vs AC 19 (47.8 w/ Advantage)
Listed "nova" combo: 76.4 DPR vs AC 19 (105.3 w/ Advantage

*Basic GWM Bear-barian*
Entering rage with bonus action and using Reckless Attack for Advantage, Brutal Criticals, Great Weapon Master, and a greataxe (since it actually does a little better DPR than greatsword due to Brutal Criticals)

*At level 19:*  37.7 DPR (41.2 if rage is already activated and so they get an extra bonus action attack on crit)
*At exactly level 20* (w/capstone):  46.3 DPR (50.6 if rage is already activated and so they get an extra bonus action attack on crit)
*Ancestral Nightmare*
Build posted here:  http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=103 

All figures using Reckless Attack (or otherwise getting Advantage) vs AC 19

*SnB Rage Only:*  34.5 DPR, 48.5 w/ Vengeful Ancestors (plus 14 damage reduction and Resistance for ally on top of that)
*SnB Nova:*  86.9 DPR  / 100.9 w/ VA
*SnB Nova w/ Commander's Strike* (sample ally is generic subclassless Rogue 20):  114.8 DPR / *128.8* w/ VA
*GWM variant:*  112.3 DPR / 126.3 w/ VA

Note:  The build has Lucky, but these formulas aren't using the Lucky rerolls for its DPR calcs.

Anydice Formula:  https://anydice.com/program/15c00


Might edit in more calcs later.

----------


## Lyracian

> originally I was going to Gloomstalker / Scout; and had a build and backstory worked out.
> My original class is the only one that doesn't really fit the bard build but I really had my heart set on a ranger build so I'm trying to make it work


I would go with Human and take the Gloom Stalker route.  Aim to finish as Bard (Swords) 8/Gloom 4.  That gives you 3 ASI.
If you start with Bard 1/ Ranger 2 you get the Fighting Style.  Level 6 Swords gives you extra Attack and the four levels of Ranger give you two spell levels so your spell slots are the same as a tenth level single class caster character.




> It looks like it should be 4 extra HP, isn't it? But actually it's 2. It threw me off too, I had to run the math myself to make sure.
> EDIT: That is a Rogue1/Barbarian1 with 10 Constitution who started Rogue has 15 hit points. A Rogue1/Barbarian1 with 10 Constitution who started Barbarian has 17 hit points. Obviously at 1st level the difference is 4 hit points


There you go doing more work on my build idea than I have!  Was just looking at the Hit Dice without thinking how it went leveled up. 2 HP for a Skill makes it seem even better now.  I might even spend a bit of time and write this up.




> Feel free to run it that way at your table, but per RAW RAI and Sage Advice, it works. The attack with the melee weapon is a part of the spell, which then gets twinned into two attacks the same way Fire Bolt does.


RAI is opinion and I do not want to derail this excellent threat with an argument about RAW.  If you want to link a Sage Advice I will read it but I would not allow this to work in any game I ran.




> It has upsides. Since it uses Dexterity to attack instead of Strength, it is less MAD than the Mountain Dwarf version and can afford to put points into Charisma instead. Best with Shadar Kai or Sea Elf for that nice Constitution point. But the Mountain Dwarf version is quite a bit stronger early, gains a bonus point for not being dependent on the feat rule for weapon damage (which is optional), and is a lot more unorthodox / entertaining to me


I prefer my characters to be a little bit more well rounded so not sure I could bring myself to play this as an Elf or a Dwarf but I do prefer the Elf as they have other options.  I like to be reasonably optimised with character but I am not worried about the 2 point average damage different between the Short Sword and Battleaxe when I can get so much more out the the character for such a small change.  I do not have the other source books so do not know anything about the other races you list.

----------


## Zene

Your thoughts on builds are fantastic, thanks so much for sharing them!

Id love to see the Int/Cha wizard blaster build you mentioned.

----------


## Zigludo

> RAI is opinion and I do not want to derail this excellent threat with an argument about RAW.  If you want to link a Sage Advice I will read it but I would not allow this to work in any game I ran.


Of course not, neither do I. I just mean I wouldn't want to write up a build if I wasn't certain it was legal. I'll leave it at Sage Advice. The first link I've provided confirms that it works per "rules as Sage Advice", the second two are just helpful for those reading who aren't sure how to adjudicate it in their own game.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/12/22...booming-blade/
[Crawford says: "yes, TS works". Although he says so in his characteristic evasive Crawford-y way.]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/08/11...k-roll-or-two/
[Mearls: Roll two attack rolls for Twinned Spells that include an attack roll.]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/22...-melee-attack/
[Crawford: The melee weapon attack is included in the effects of the spell.]

EDIT: Then again the melee Sorcerer builds are mostly dependent on Quickening Booming Blade, not Twinning it, so this is something of a side issue.

----------


## koeuji

Relatively new DnD player and these single class build write-ups have been really helpful and informative. Would love to see more of these, especially the Shadarkai samurai build.

Also, what would be a recommended spell list for the Hobgoblin Iron Wizard? Are there any must-have spells or would the generic wizard build spell lists be fine?

----------


## Klorox

> Good question!  It's true; raising your Dex above 14 doesn't raise your AC any further.  However the choice is indeed intentional.
> 
> The reason I take it anyways is because I value Initiative (the higher the challenge level of the table, the more important it is), Dex saves, dex skills, and the occasional extra Dex-based attack at low levels, and because the +1 Dex from Moderately Armored makes it convenient.  It's kinda similar to the reason why I don't like to dump Dexterity even on Strength builds; the stat is good even if you're not getting AC from it.  You can easily drop it from 16 to 14 if you like (as I note in "variants" for the Iron Wizard), and spend the points somewhere else.  But extra points in Dexterity are by no means wasted IMHO; it's not like investing in, say, Strength instead would have gotten you an AC bonus either.
> 
> Contrast this possible statline for the Hobgoblin Iron Wizard:
> 8/15/17/16/8/8
> 
> With this one:
> 8/14/17/16/10/8  
> ...


I also wanted to add another option for stats:

9/13/15/16/14/8

This will eventually result in:

9/14/16/20/14/8

Your most important saves are CON, DEX and WIS. Youre proficient in two out of the three. 

That being said, perhaps the best array is: 

8/15/17/16/8/8

Eventually becoming:

8/16/18/20/8/8

I just like the more even stats across the board. 

Im not sure if Id actually play this build, but I do like it. 

My fear is Id be staring at that 16 INT until level 11, which is too long. 

Focusing on AC is something you really dont *need* to do as a wizard (it is nice though).

----------


## Bloodcloud

I've posted him a few times already, but this sounds like a good place to re-post:

*The Eldritch Blast Knight*

VHuman fighter (eldritch Knight) 7 Warlock (Infernal/Tome) 13

An unconventional gish build. Switch seemlessly from long range to melee range, push your enemies around into hazards or away from your squishies. With quick access to 3rd level slots, you get access to a good range of spells for decent area attacks (fireball) or control (Hunger of hadar) or movement (misty step/fly), even maybe counterspelling depending on your need. Action surge at level 7 gives you some nova potential, and hex with a great concentration check makes for some very decent sustained damage potential. Heavy armor and shield, coupled with thp on kil;s and decent hit dice, means you are not going down easy and can tank with the best of them. Access to all ritual spells and a familiar make you usefull outside of combat, and a high charisma score means you can be a decent party face. 

Stats
15 Str /10 Dex /14 Con /8 Int / 10 Wis / Cha 16


Overview:
Lvl 1: Vhuman Fighter 1 (feat: crossbow expert) (defense fighting style)
Lvl 2-6: Warlock (Fiend) (Tome) Pick up Eldritch blast with repelling and Agonizing blast, grab Booming blade and Shillelagh cantrip. Grab Warcaster for your ASI.
Lvl 7-12: Fighter (Eldritch knight). Max Charisma with the ASIs.
13-15: more warlock.

*At level 5*: You are Fighter 1 Warlock 4. 
You are wearing heavy armor and shield with defense style, 21 AC with plate and 40 HP. On a kill you get 7 thp, and bonus action heal for 1d10+1 means you are fairly self sufficient for HP and can take tanking duty. 
You cast Eldritch blast in melee and at range as you want, for a very stable 2d10 +6 damage per turn.  The cool feature here is you can use this to push enemies 20 ft away where you want. Being in melee makes controlling the angle of the pushing quite easy, and adds a tactical layer regular fighters don't have.
You have proficiency in concentration (so +5) and advantage on those check, so you can maintain hex no problem. Next level you get third level slots, so that Hex can last 8 hour. 
You have two 2nd level spell slot which recharge on a short rest. 
For attack of opportunity, Booming blade delivered through you shillelagh is the key (2d8+3 and another 2d8 from the secondary). Pre-cast shillelagh anytime you think a fight might break out in the next minute, as you've got competition for that bonus action with Hex.
You might also burn a slot on Hellish rebuke if you fancy it.
Sample spell list: Hex, Hellish rebuke, Armor of aghatys, Misty step
Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Booming Blade, Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion, Guidance, Shillelagh. 

*At level 11:* 
You are Warlock 5 Fighter 6. 
Your Charisma is now maxed.
Your AC is still at least 21, and you got Shield 3 first level slot per day to raise it to 26 when needed (or to cast Absorb elements). HP is at a respectable 87, with THP on kills of 10. You can heal 1d10 + 6 as a bonus action. You can take tanking duty no problem.

Eldritch blast is now at 3d10 + 15, which is pretty great at-will damage with a push rider of 10 feet per attack. With Hex, 3d10 + 15 + 3d6. But you also have Action surge and up to 8 hour of Hex with a single cast. So you got a once a short rest nova of 6d10+30+6d6 with 60 feet of potential pushing. That is pretty brutal and useable both in melee and at range. 

Your fifth warlock level came with an extra invocation, so you need to choose: Devil sight opens the Darkness shenanigan, Book of ancient secrets gives you access to nearly all rituals in the game (including a familiar), or at-will silent image or disguise self... you decide, but you've got quite a few choice, depending on your party to open up your usefulness.
Sample spell list: Hex, Hellish rebuke, Armor of aghatys, Misty step, Fireball, Shield, Absorb element, Magic missile, protection from evil and good.
Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Booming Blade, Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion, Guidance, Shillelagh, Mage Hand, Message.

Level 12 you get two level 2 spell slots and War magic. Why? To use your staff to attack the enemy once more after casting eldritch blast, and trigger Hex one more time! So now, your at-will damage is 3d10+15 +1d8 +5 (with shillelagh active). You do have a bit of competition for bonus action, so it,s not gonna come toghether perfectly all the time.

*At level 18*
You are Warlock 11 Fighter 7. 
On top of all the above, if you now have your fourth blast, so the fighter is jealous he's got less attack than you.

You have 3 level 5 spell slot that recharge on a short rest, 4 level 1 slot and 2 level 2 slots on long rest, and a 6th level spel with your Mystic arcanum. The ranger, paladin and eldritch knight are super jealous at your spellpower, and your at-will damage (4d10+20 + 1d8+5) is more than a match to theirs, and your short rest nova (8d10+40 + 8d6) is nothing to sneeze at. Hex is now 24 hours long. 

5 invocations gives you some versatility.

Sample spell list: Hex, Hellish rebuke, Armor of aghatys, Misty step, Fireball, Counterspell, Fly, Shadow of Moil, Firewall, Hold monster, Synaptic Static, Soul cage (Arcanum)
From Eldritch knight: Shield, Absorb element, Magic missile, Protection from evil and good, Darkness
Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Booming Blade, Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion, Guidance, Shillelagh, Mage Hand, Message, Chill touch

On your next two level, you get a 7th level spell

----------


## Klorox

I like it!

Whats EK 7 give the build?

----------


## Bloodcloud

> I like it!
> 
> Whats EK 7 give the build?


War magic, to combine with eldritch blast, an additionnal first level spell slot and 2 2nd level spell slot, and a spell known.

----------


## LudicSavant

> I've posted him a few times already, but this souns like a good place to re-post:
> 
> *The Eldritch Blast Knight*
> 
> VHuman fighter (eldritch Knight) 7 Warlock (Infernal/Tome) 13
> 
> An unconventional gish build. Switch seemlessly from long range to melee range, push your enemies around into hazards or away from your squishies. With quick access to 3rd level slots, you get access to a good range of spells for decent area attacks (fireball) or control (Hunger of hadar) or movement (misty step/fly), even maybe counterspelling depending on your need. Action surge at level 7 gives you some nova potential, and hex with a great concentration check makes for some very decent sustained damage potential. Heavy armor and shield, coupled with thp on kil;s and decent hit dice, means you are not going down easy and can tank with the best of them. Access to all ritual spells and a familiar make you usefull outside of combat, and a high charisma score means you can be a decent party face. 
> 
> Stats
> ...


Thanks for posting this.  

Looks like DPR after hit chance / etc (using the same standards as post #81) would be... lessee...

The stated "at-will" combo would be 34.8 DPR vs AC 19  (47.8 w/ Advantage)
The stated "nova" combo would be 76.4 DPR vs AC 19 (105.3 w/ Advantage)

Does that look about right?

----------


## Bloodcloud

> Thanks for posting this.  
> 
> Looks like DPR after hit chance / etc (using the same standards as post #81) would be... lessee...
> 
> The stated "at-will" combo would be 34.8 DPR vs AC 19  (47.8 w/ Advantage)
> The stated "nova" combo would be 76.4 DPR vs AC 19 (105.3 w/ Advantage)
> 
> Does that look about right?


I think so? Havent calculated fully. Just looked at tue raw number compared to benchmark (like snb eldritch knight, gwm paladin, bladesinger)

----------


## MikeRoxTheBoat

I was actually just theory crafting a melee Celestial Tomelock and was surprised to see such a thing as your first build.

If you were to lean more into melee than ranged, though (I don't want to pick up EB at all, I already have two SS Archer types and the style is too similar) how would you adjust it? I was considering grabbing Mobile, Warcaster, and polearm Master to be able to get in, hit them, then get out and hit them again if they approach, all probably with booming blade or green flame blade damage.

Alternatively, was considering a dip into life cleric for armor, a couple slots, and powered up heals. Divine Sorcerer was an option too, for potential doubled up attacks even before opportunity attacks.

Probably a build that would work better as a Divine Soul 3/Hexblade X Pact of the Tome, but I was trying to lean a bit into the healer aspect and get something extra out of fire/radiant damage.

I'm just trying to build away from the Hexblade Pact of the Blade rut.

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## Tallytrev813

Saving for future

----------


## LudicSavant

> Relatively new DnD player and these single class build write-ups have been really helpful and informative. Would love to see more of these, especially the Shadarkai samurai build.
> 
> Also, what would be a recommended spell list for the Hobgoblin Iron Wizard? Are there any must-have spells or would the generic wizard build spell lists be fine?


Pretty much anything that's good for a typical control Wizard is good for the IW.  Things like Sleet Storm, Silent Image, and the like.  Spells from the Abjuration school are a bit more useful than normal, as noted in the spoiler block.  But overall Abjurers don't massively change up which spells are ideal the way that, say, an Evoker does.

If I had to name some "must-haves" it'd be...

- Shield, Absorb Elements, Globe of Invulnerability, Alarm, Banishment, Counterspell and Protection from Evil are all fantastic Abjuration spells that you can easily afford to add to your spellbook thanks to Abjuration Savant.  They would all be worth casting on their own, but provide extra benefits when used by Abjurers (such as recharging your ward).
- The action economy / resource efficiency spells.  Things like Find Familiar, Contingency, Simulacrum, etc.
- Misty Step.
- I strongly recommend picking up a bunch of rituals and using them liberally.  Unseen Servant, Phantom Steed, Comprehend Languages, Water Breathing, etc.  Remember that you can cast rituals while moving (e.g. the party does not need to take a ten minute break) and that they don't take up preparation slots.  You can just _always_ have an Unseen Servant following you around, or the like.  And while you might not need to breathe water all the time, come on, it lasts 24 hours and affects the whole party.  Learning the spell basically means "the whole party now has the ability to breathe underwater, forever."

When it comes to team buff spells, this is always going to be party-composition dependent.  You need to look at your party members' builds and figure out what spells benefit them the most.

----------


## Ritorix

*The Passive Soul*
_Passive combat support to boost your party from 1 to 20_

The passive soul focuses on stacking hitpoints, redistributing damage, and healing the desperate. It maximizes action economy by keeping the party up and fighting longer, by making their actions more effective, and by getting the most out of your spells.

The passive soul gets going straight from level 1 and plays through 20. Spell selection is the most important part of building a sorcerer and the build's spell selections are optimal right from the start. I'll go into excessive detail on which spells make the cut. Other aspects of the character, like background and skills, are largely irrelevant to the build.


*Tactics*

Prior to combat, buff your party. Explain to your DM and your party that this will be a regular thing, and not to skip past it. Don't forget. Every day, and whenever you need to during the day, use Inspiring Leader. As you gain levels, your morning routine may include Extended Mage Armor, Extended Aid, and Extended Death Ward. Eventually you may also prepare a daily Heroes' Feast. 

During combat, the default first turn is spent on Bless. It needs to happen early in a fight for maximum effect. The range is only 30 feet and turn 1 has the best chance of your allies being close to you. Make sure you always Bless yourself for the concentration bonus, especially prior to gaining War Caster. If you move this round, make sure to stay near your future Warding Bond target.

Turn 2 tends to be a Warding Bond. Have a chat with your default Bond target before the game, explaining what is going to happen and emphasizing the 60' distance limit. The trickiest part is getting close enough to touch the target without putting yourself at risk of melee. Bond is not always required and sometimes it's a really bad idea (if facing AOE damage, swarms or environmental effects that might damage you too). Once Bond is up, your default action on other turns is Blade Ward to reduce incoming damage to yourself from the Bond. If you need instant protection, you can cast both Bond and a Quickened Blade Ward. 

The remainder of your spell list is reactionary in nature. Healing spells, Sanctuary, Absorb Elements, Counterspell, Revivify, Polymorph, etc. For these you have to weigh the situation and your remaining resources. Many are good candidates to Twin. 

Sanctuary has the highest learning curve for effective use. It can really save yourself or an ally if they are focused. If you are casting Sanc on yourself and can Twin it to an ally, do it, even if just to disrupt an enemy turn or two. You'll also have to learn how your DM reacts to Sanc. Do they attack anyway and possibly lose the action? Do they use metagame knowledge for their monsters and move on to another target? 


*Level by Level*

_+ is a gained spell
- is a discarded spell
HP and THP are your maximum buffed values at a given level.
_

Versatile Human Divine Soul
16 Charisma, 16 Dexterity, 14 Constitution
Feat: Inspiring Leader

*1)* +Healing Word, +Sanctuary, +Bless (law option)
HP: 8
THP: 4
Cantrips: Take Blade Ward for synergy with Warding Bond. Otherwise, cantrip choice isn't key to the build. Guidance and Frostbite are solid choices.

Inspiring Leader is a huge buffer at this level for your entire party. Apply it every morning and during every short rest. It might keep instant-death crits from taking a young life.

Bless comes from the Law option. Bless is such a good spell that we won't ever discard it. It will occupy our concentration slot most of the time.

With an unarmored AC of 13, Sanctuary is a defensive pick. It's a bonus action to cast. Sanc doesn't take concentration and scales with your save DC. It can be twinned on yourself and someone under fire. Pay attention to the initiative order; you can disrupt many enemy actions with a properly-timed sanc. Or you can just open a fight with fire bolt followed by sanc. You won't need to sanc every fight, depending on enemy types and positioning, but it's an amazing little spell when you do need it. And you won't have to worry about it dropping due to offensive action on your part - you don't take any!

If you aren't a fan of Sanctuary, the alternative is Mage Armor. That boosts your AC to 16, and you will cast with Extended metamagic every morning. It will save spell slots over Sanctuary use, but a 16AC is only average. That means you need Shield in the build too, which is already tight on spell slots.

*2)* +Cure Wounds
HP: 14
THP: 5

Cure Wounds is a stopover until your build comes fully online next level. Between it and Healing Word, for one level you'll have flexibility in action economy and in ranges. Cure is more potent, benefits more from Empowered Healing (if you keep it) which has a close range, and Cure is touch. That all lines up. But sometimes you need to heal at range and 1HP is enough. Other times you need your action or bonus action for something else. Quickening a Cure Wounds would be grossly inefficient. So we'll keep both on the roster, at least until...

*3)* -Cure Wounds, +Aid, +Warding Bond
Metamagic: Twinned, Extended
HP: 20
Aid buffer: 5
THP: 6

Twin metamagic is key to the build and will be how most of your sorcery points are spent. Extend doubles your Aid and Death Ward to fill an entire adventuring day for a single sorcery point. That matters if your DM tries to say "Aid is 8 hours? Sorry, it's gone now, you cast it _this morning_ but now it's the evening." 

Aid can be used either in combat or before. In combat, it becomes a nice 3-target heal and buff in one, but you need an action to do it. Casting before combat saves you in action economy, but you lose Aid as a 3-target heal. Finally, you could cast Aid _after_ your first combat of the day. That gets you both a healing effect and the buff. 

With an 8 (16 Extended) hour duration and no concentration requirement, Aid should usually be cast at your highest spell level available. Target yourself, the tank and a front-line DPS. Aid adds "real" hit points which can be healed when lost. On top of Inspiring Leader, you're adding a sizable buffer to the party.

To put these HP totals into perspective, a 3rd-level fighter with 16CON would have 31HP. So do you, fully buffed with Aid and Inspire. But you aren't tanking on the front lines. At least I hope not. What to do with all those HP?

That's where Warding Bond comes in. One hour duration, no concentration, +1AC and +1 saves to your new best friend. That's your tank, by the way. Oh, and they get resistance to everything, but you take all damage they do take (after their newly-acquired resistance).

The result is damage smoothed out among the party instead of stacked on a single person. Bless (and soon, War Caster) will boost all of the concentration checks you will be making. Sanctuary will help ensure you only take Bond damage. Empowered Healing, Twinned cures can keep you both up and running. Bond is also why we'll take Absorb Elements, but not Shield. If you take bond damage from a Fireball, you can then Absorb your half of that damage.

Warding doesn't always have to go on a tank. It's a bit pointless if your tank is a barbarian (they already resist nearly everything). Rogues are another good option. They can evade blasts and Uncanny Dodge to halve incoming damage (taking 1/4 damage after resists), reducing what you take as well. Placing it on a fellow caster could let them decide when to Shield or when to simply take half damage.

The component for Warding Bond is a set of platinum rings (100gp total). If you want the potential for full party coverage you can give these out ahead of time, one ring per party member, and wear all of the other paired rings yourself.

Note that the Bond breaks past 60 feet of distance between the pair. Your ally needs to pay attention to that. Also, you can use distance to intentionally break a bond, simply walking away; otherwise it takes a full action to break. You might want to unbond if a friend in a clearly fatal situation (lava, etc) could drag you down too.

*4)* +Absorb Elements
ASI: War Caster
HP: 26
Aid buffer: 5
THP: 7

War Caster is required to keep concentration spells up while taking Warding Bond damage. We don't want it at level 1, THP are too important at low level, so it has to come at 4. Bless, War Caster and the sorc's Con save proficiency really stack concentration checks in your favor. Each check is at 1d20+1d4(bless)+2(Con bonus)+2(save proficiency), with advantage. That's an average roll of 17 per die before advantage, and that will increase with your Con and proficiency bonus.

Math time! For a Ward-caused concentration DC to exceed the base value of DC10, the initial incoming damage to your ally would have to exceed 40. That's 20 damage to them, 20 to you. In my experience, such high damage from a single blow primarily comes from things like magic spells and dragon breath. We can mitigate those with Absorb Elements. Besides keeping you alive, it can make a concentration DC more reasonable. A whopping 80 incoming elemental damage could go to your Ward, causing you to take 40, then be halved to 20 for a simple DC10 concentration check.

*5)* +Counterspell
HP: 32
Aid buffer: 10
THP: 8
Spell snapshot: Absorb Elements, Bless, Healing Word, Sanctuary, Aid, Warding Bond, Counterspell

Remember that generic fighter? Now they have 45 hit points. Buffed with Aid and Inspire, you have 50. If that fighter joins your party, he rockets up to 63. If Warded, he has resist all for 126EHP (that's Effective HP).

Thus far we've been concentrating on Bless. It's that good. We could Twin haste now, but I would instead keep up with Bless and upcast as necessary to get everyone. Target anyone that just unlocked Extra Attack. It really helps mitigate the hit penalty on GWM or Sharpshooter. Meanwhile, Twin haste is expensive in both spell slots and sorcery points and doesn't really give enough in exchange. Bless also doesn't have the nasty pseudo-stun that happens when Haste expires. You have a fantastic concentration but I still don't like to risk it.

Instead we'll take Counterspell. It can prevent a huge amount of incoming damage, or even counter a counter to let your metamagic heals get through.

If you want a comedy option, take Gaseous Form. Sure it's concentration, but you'll be a puff of wind with damage resistance floating next to your Warded buddy, taking half of the half damage they take. You can't do much, but you can still take the Help action. If you need to cast you can drop concentration at a whim.

*6)* +Revivify
Empowered Healing gained
HP: 38
Aid buffer: 10
THP: 9

In addition to saving your allies, Revivify can help out if a party member gets too murderous and kills someone they shouldn't have, or if rocks fall on a low-HP NPC. That 'oops' will cost 300GP per cast.

If you have the gold and DM approval, you may want to simply buy a few Revivify scrolls and save this spell slot for something else. Discuss it with your party and they might chip in. Instead, you could take Cure Wounds for use with Empowered Healing, or Mass Healing Word.

*7)* +Polymorph
HP: 44
Aid buffer: 15
THP: 10

Poly is a powerful, Twinnable heal of sorts, to use when things are looking grim. Just remember no one can spellcast in the new form.

An entire guide could be written on Poly. For you it means a giant pile of free HP for Warding Bond. The only downside is you lose Bless and can't cast further spells, but can still concentrate on the Poly.

*8)* +Death Ward
ASI: +Charisma
HP: 50
Aid buffer: 15
THP: 12

Another fire-and-forget buff. Think of it as Concentration Insurance. Twin on yourself and a spellcaster buddy. If a sudden burst takes you down it won't be a knockout and you won't lose concentration, saving that spell slot. If you are buffing in the morning and aren't sure when combat may occur, it can be more efficient to cast a pair of Extended Death Wards. That gives you 16 hours (essentially all day) and avoids the risk of an expiring Death Ward that also cost you 4 sorcery points. Extending twice comes out to 2 points and 2 slots, instead of 8 points and 2 slots for twinning twice.

*9)* +Greater Restoration
HP: 56
Aid buffer: 20
THP: 13
Spell snapshot: Absorb Elements, Bless, Healing Word, Sanctuary, Aid, Warding Bond, Counterspell, Revivify, Death Ward, Polymorph, Greater Restoration

GR gets rid of a laundry list of nasty effects. 100 gold is burned each cast.

Now that you have access to 5th-level spells, there is an optional spell swap available: Revivify for Raise Dead. There are pros and cons for each, and the choice is yours. I prefer to keep Revivify. If you can buy scrolls of either spell, stock up.

*10)* +Mass Cure Wounds
Metamagic: Quickened
HP: 62
Aid buffer: 20
THP: 14

Quicken metamagic twists the action economy in your favor and adds options for combat tactics. Quicken a spell and disengage with your action. Quicken a spell and also cast Blade Ward to tank bond damage. By now you may have some magic items that work well with Quicken, too.

Mass Cure Wounds is like spending a 3rd level slot on Cure Wounds, except it hits 6 people. That's not something we could do with Twin Cure Wounds or Healing Word. If your whole party got nuked, this is the solution. At least until we get Mass Heal.

*11)* +Heroes' Feast
HP: 68
Aid buffer: 20 (5th level slot)
Feast buffer: 2d10 to party members without Aid
THP: 15

Heroes' Feast is broken. Advantage on Wisdom saves and immunity to poison and frighten for the entire party for the entire day. Oh, it also gives 2d10 max HP (which don't stack with Aid). You should still cast an up-leveled Aid on your 3 'important' party members, but Feast HP will help the others out. In exchange it costs 1000gp per cast. Make the party help out with expenses. It's not like they have anything better to spend that gold on, right?

*12)* ASI: +Charisma
HP: 74
Aid buffer: 20 (5th level slot)
Feast buffer: 2d10 to party members without Aid
THP: 17

*13)* +Feather Fall
HP: 80
Aid buffer: 30 (7th level slot)
Feast buffer: 2d10 to party members without Aid
THP: 18

Generally, at this level I take Feather Fall out of pure paranoia, in anticipation of getting wings. Our 6th-level slot is eternally consumed by Heroes Feast and there's nothing we want to ditch for Feather Fall later on. Just get it now. It's gravity insurance.

If you think you'll stay airborne with no problem (after all, Otherworldly Wings aren't dispellable and only fade away if you fall unconscious, which also means you can't cast Feather Fall), your options open up a bit. Wall of Stone is an interesting, non-hostile control spell. If Heroes' Feast isn't being cast daily, you could also take Heal.

*14)* Otherworldly Wings gained, a flying speed of 30. Hover above the battle like the angel you are.
HP: 86
Aid buffer: 30 (7th level slot)
Feast buffer: 2d10 to party members without Aid
THP: 19

*15)* +Holy Aura
HP: 92
Aid buffer: 30 (7th level slot)
Feast buffer: 2d10 to party members without Aid
THP: 20

Advantage on all saves and disadvantage on all incoming attacks for your entire party? Yes, please! Extend this one.

*16)* ASI: +2 Con
HP: 114
Aid buffer: 30 (7th level slot)
Feast buffer: 2d10 to party members without Aid
THP: 21

*17)* -Mass Cure Wounds, +Mass Heal, +Wish
Metamagic: Subtle
HP: 122
Aid buffer: 30 (7th level slot)
Feast buffer: 2d10 to party members without Aid
THP: 22

*18)* Unearthly Recovery gained
HP: 130
Aid buffer: 30 (7th level slot)
Feast buffer: 2d10 to party members without Aid
THP: 23

You gain a bonus heal of 70HP at this level, though it's only usable if you drop below 70HP. Not bad, but it can't exactly compete with Mass Heal.

*19)* ASI: +2 Con
HP: 153
Aid buffer: 30 (7th level slot)
Feast buffer: 2d10 to party members without Aid
THP: 24

*20)* Sorcerous Restoration gained.
HP: 161
Aid buffer: 30 (7th level slot)
Feast buffer: 2d10 to party members without Aid
THP: 25

So what do we have? A typical party of 5 has about 250HP of buffer to lose before the group is even taking real damage. That damage is split more evenly to everyone, and they have great saves and tons of healing at the ready. If you drop them to 0 they get back up at 1, or they turn into giant apes with a ton of fresh HP, or they can't even be attacked thanks to Sanc. I wouldn't want to fight those guys.

*Final spell snapshot:* Absorb Elements, Bless, Healing Word, Sanctuary, Aid, Warding Bond, Counterspell, Revivify, Death Ward, Polymorph, Greater Restoration, Heroes Feast, Feather Fall, Holy Aura, Mass Heal, Wish

----------


## Sparky McDibben

Hey Ritorix,

I'm confused by something. Your Divine Soul Sorcerer build looks good, but it ends with 17 spells known. The sorcerer only gets 15 (plus bless per divine soul). Where's that last spell come from? It looks like it creeps in at 3rd level - am I just missing something?

----------


## Ritorix

> Hey Ritorix,
> 
> I'm confused by something. Your Divine Soul Sorcerer build looks good, but it ends with 17 spells known. The sorcerer only gets 15 (plus bless per divine soul). Where's that last spell come from? It looks like it creeps in at 3rd level - am I just missing something?


They just creep in there! Whoops - you are right of course, I just went back through my D&D Beyond sheet to see what happened. Looks like I swapped out the level 2 spell to get a pair of spells at level 3, but forgot to port that back into the guide. Edited, thanks.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

Battle Valkyrie Life Cleric
_"You want your healin'?!  Go earn it!"_

*Build Goals:* Make a durable frontline healer that relies on synergies revolving around Warding Bond, Heavy Armor Master, and the Life Cleric's Blessed Healer feature.


*Progression:* Life Cleric 17/Sorcerer 3.  You'll level as a Life Cleric until level 6, take your 3 levels into Sorcerer, then continue leveling as a Cleric.

You'll start your race as a Human Variant.  This will get us the Heavy Armor Master feature.  With this, you'll be able to last on the front lines without needing any assistance from your sissy Ranger.

Once you've hit level 3, you'll be able to cast Warding Bond, the bread-and-butter of this build.  Casting it on an ally who needs it will not only cause them to live longer, but also cause the weapon damage you receive to be reduced by 3.  Assuming a standard hit is 10 damage, your friend will take 5 while you take 2.  Instead of 100% of the damage going towards a single character, it's now 70% of the damage divided between two.

After level 6, you'll be able to afford Warding Bond in almost every fight, while also having plenty of options to sustain you and your allies.  A single Healing Word on your ally would normally heal about 5 HP to just them, but this combination of features means that the same spell now heals 8 to them and 3 to you.  That's 220% effectiveness from a Bonus Action spell, folks.  After this, start leveling into Sorcerer.

Once you've gained your 3 levels of Sorcerer, you want to pick up Distant Spell and Twinned Spell.  This allows you to Twin your classic Warding Bond, while also being able to use some high-powered healing effects at range (Revivify, Cure Wounds).  Because you can now use Cure Wounds at Range, you can maintain Sanctuary on yourself if enemies happen to be using magical weapons that bypass your Heavy Armor Master.

As to which Sorcerer subclass to use, that's entirely up to you.  
Storm Sorcerer will allow you to save your Sorcery Points when casting melee spells like Cure Wounds, as well as having the option to get out of melee when your Warding Bond starts to work against you.Divine Soul does have some assistance with Concentration Saving Throws, if those are more of your thing.With Wild Magic, you would have the capacity to take a hit from your own spells, or save allies if something backfires.

----------


## LudicSavant

I'll add links to builds other people have posted in the thread in the OP!

For future reference when posting builds:  Please try to make it clear what your ASIs and such are.

----------


## Klorox

> Battle Valkyrie Life Cleric
> _"You want your healin'?!  Go earn it!"_
> 
> *Build Goals:* Make a durable frontline healer that relies on synergies revolving around Warding Bond, Heavy Armor Master, and the Life Cleric's Blessed Healer feature.
> 
> 
> *Progression:* Life Cleric 17/Sorcerer 3.  You'll level as a Life Cleric until level 6, take your 3 levels into Sorcerer, then continue leveling as a Cleric.
> 
> You'll start your race as a Human Variant.  This will get us the Heavy Armor Master feature.  With this, you'll be able to last on the front lines without needing any assistance from your sissy Ranger.
> ...


I really like the synergy here. I never thought of adding a few sorcerer levels to the life cleric (which Ive always realized is more than the best healer). 

Id like to see some better weapon options if were gonna call her a Valkyrie, but youre really not gonna be making too many physical attacks anyway.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> I really like the synergy here. I never thought of adding a few sorcerer levels to the life cleric (which Ive always realized is more than the best healer). 
> 
> Id like to see some better weapon options if were gonna call her a Valkyrie, but youre really not gonna be making too many physical attacks anyway.


 With the SCAG weapon cantrips, you don't really need a big weapon.

----------


## Klorox

> With the SCAG weapon cantrips, you don't really need a big weapon.


Youre undoubtedly correct, Im basing it on what I think a Valkyrie looks like.

----------


## LudicSavant

I'm still gonna post the other 4 builds I mentioned, but it's a bit delayed since... I maaaay have written up the guide-length post, only to accidentally click off the reply page.  Whoops.  But here's another build to tide you over that I think you'll like.  Please let me know what you think!   :Small Smile: 

The Ancestral Nightmare is a flexible tank that, unlike the vast majority of Barbarians, allows you to lock down opponents in both melee and at range. It can grapple multiple opponents at a time while still wielding a sword and shield, or it can circumvent the usual limitations for thrown weapons to harass people with javelins while providing allies with Resistance, Disadvantage to be hit, damage reduction, and damage retribution all at the same time.

*Build 8:  The Ancestral Nightmare (Javelin Master / Grappler Tank)*
 

*Simic Hybrid Ancestral Guardian Barbarian 16 / Battle Master 3 / Rogue 1*
*Stats (Point Buy):*  16 Str / 14 Con / 14 Dex / 13 Wis / 10 Cha / 8 Int
*ASIs:* Max Strength, Resilient (+1 Wisdom), Lucky
*Sample Maneuvers:*  Commanders Strike, Precision Attack, Tripping Attack
*Expertise:*  Athletics, one other skill of your choice
*A problem and a solution:*
If you want to use throwing weapons, you can only draw one object a turn without cutting into your action economy, which creates a problem for those with Extra Attack.  This usually makes Barbarians sad, because theyre hungry for ranged options.

If you want to be a grappler, you cant normally use a shield or a two-handed weapon because you need to keep a hand free to grab your opponent.  This too usually makes Barbarians sad, because they want to shove someone, grapple them, and then beat the bejesus out of them, while simultaneously being as efficient as possible in sponging damage.

Simic Hybrid solves both of these problems by making you into a tentacle monster at level 5.  

While these limbs cant actually throw your javelins, they _can_ hold a bundle of em, which is good enough because switching items between your limbs is a non-action.  And they can grapple multiple people at a time while leaving both hands free for sword and board.  And not only that, but you get what is essentially Tavern Brawler as a bonus feat, which means we dont have to spend our precious ASIs looking for something to do with our bonus action.

On top of your extra limbs, Simic Hybrid also gives you Darkvision, ideal stats, and a selection of useful mobility skills (Manta Glide will let you convert falling distance into speed boosts, Climbing speed will help you drag your grappled people up walls and then drop them for damage and prone, swimming will uh be relevant in an aquatic campaign).

*At range:*  You throw two weapons including your Dueling bonus, and your target is harassed by your ancestors.  This means that if they want to target anyone else in your party, they have to deal with Resistance _and_ Disadvantage _and_ damage reduction from Spirit Shield _and_ guaranteed damage from Vengeful Ancestors.  Heck, at that point you can just put yourself out of range, since youre the only one they can attack for full value.  Unfortunately, you still don't get your Rage bonus to thrown weapon damage (since a "melee weapon attack using Strength" and an "attack with a melee weapon using Strength" count as something different according to Crawford), but that's Barbarian for ya.

Once you have your fighter levels, you also have the option of using Commanders Strike to hand the local Rogue an off-turn Sneak Attack, further boosting your ranged DPR.  And of course Action Surge.

Either way, youre better off than pretty much every other Barbarian who finds themselves stuck out of melee range for a turn.

*In melee:*  Youre a superior grappler, able to grab multiple enemies (with Advantage, and later Expertise), shove em to the ground, and still wail on them while wielding a shield.  And your ability to perform at range means that you can do things like nail someone on one side of the map with a javelin (making them the target of your Ancestral Protectors) then lock down a second foe near you.

The Rogue dip is primarily to pick up Expertise, which will give you some non-combat utility and make your grapple/shove checks basically guaranteed (scaling as high as +17+Advantage).

The Battle Master levels are because well, how do I put this.  The Barbarian chassis kinda forgets to scale its damage much in the later levels.  And while this builds main job isnt being a DPR factory, its nice to be able to unload from time to time.  Battle Master will give you a decent burst damage option and some extra tools via maneuvers.

Your nova damage at tier 4 works out to 86.9 DPR *vs AC 19* (4 attacks with Action Surge, Advantage from Reckless Attack, any damaging maneuver if you hit or precision attack if you miss), 100.9 DPR with Vengeful Ancestors (plus 14 DPR of damage reduction to the ally, for a total 114.9 average damage shift in your teams favor, plus Resistance and Disadvantage of course).  You can push this a good deal higher with Commanders Strike depending on your team composition.  Your rage damage without maneuvers or Action Surge is 34.5, or 48.5 with Vengeful Ancestors (plus 14 DPR of damage reduction to the ally, for a total 62.5 average damage shift in your teams favor).

For perspective, a tier 4 Bear-barian entering rage and using GWM with Advantage has only 37.7 DPR vs AC 19, or 46.3 at exactly level 20 (from the capstone).  And they dont have a shield, do less at range, or while grappling someone, and dont dramatically reduce damage to their allies.  See the difference?

Like all shover/grappler builds, the Ancestral Nightmare synergizes very well with a team that can put down hazards like Spike Growth, Create Bonfire, Wall of Fire, Spirit Guardians, Silence, etc.  In fact, you do so even more than usual given your ability to grapple multiple people at a time.  Drag em _all_ into the hazards!  Get enlarged (via a spellcasting ally or Potion of Growth) to shove/grapple the Huge foes, too!


*Variants/Notes:*
 While the Simic Hybrid is by default a Ravnica race, it fits easily enough into other settings as some variety of mutant or other.  For example they make a decent stand-in for the Half-Daelkyr race from previous editions of Eberron. Commanders Strike is very much party composition dependent.  If you dont have someone who would be a prime beneficiary in your party (such as a Rogue that wants an off-turn sneak attack), then switch it out for a different maneuver. You can mix up the order you take the classes to taste; just make sure you dont delay your Extra Attack.  An example would be Barb 6 > Rogue 1 > Fighter 3 > Barb 16, especially if rolled stats allowed you to start with 18 or 19 Strength (after racial adjustments). If you have the rolls for it, its possible to get an exceptional AC as a Barbarian via having 20 Dex and Con. Alert is an alternative to Lucky.  With +7 Initiative and Advantage, youre all but guaranteed to go first.  Lucky is a bit more versatile, and you can still negate surprise using Rage / Feral Instinct. Simic Hybrids also make good Zealots.  Probably merits a separate build post. If you've got extra space for a feat (such as due to rolling stats, or just looking to change up the build) Mobile is a good choice.  The Mobile feat will allow you to Reckless Attack someone then run away, leaving behind only your allies who are even worse targets than you.  Mind, you can do this with shoving or maneuvers, too. You can use this with GWM instead of sword and board, too.  You'd have to sacrifice an ASI (which means taking it late or delaying maxing your Strength unless you rolled stats) and a shield, but it'll boost your peak nova damage vs AC 19 from 86.9 DPR to 112.3 DPR (plus possibility of Vengeful Ancestors).  However note that you're less likely to activate Vengeful Ancestors if you're a better target, it won't help your ranged attacks, and using your natural attack -> grapple combo will cut into your DPR more, and if you've got a Rogue or the like in the party you can just use Commander's Strike instead (which as the Anydice link shows, lets the SnB build match the GWM build's nova).

*Edit*:  Corrected for a mistake helpfully pointed out by Zene and Zigludo!
*Edit2*:  Some relevant notes on grappling:

*Spoiler: Some Notes on Grappling*
Show





> Grappling does a great deal more than simply getting a foe to attack you instead of someone else.  Here are _some_ of the highlights:
> 
> *1) Hazard Combos.*  AKA "How to make your casters very happy."
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> Many abilities not only do recurrent damage if an enemy sticks round, but also extra damage if you have control over the enemy's movement, since they do damage when an enemy enters (willfully or not) _and_ at the start or end of their turn.  So by dragging people around you can make things like Spirit Guardians hit twice a round, or rack up damage on Spike Growth, or the like.
> ...

----------


## Mith

> I'm still gonna post the other 4 builds I mentioned, but it's a bit delayed since... I maaaay have written up the guide-length post, only to accidentally click off the reply page.  Whoops.  But here's another build to tide you over that I think you'll like.  Please let me know what you think!  
> 
> The Ancestral Nightmare is a flexible tank that, unlike the vast majority of Barbarians, allows you to lock down opponents in both melee and at range.  It can grapple multiple opponents at a time while still wielding a sword and shield, or it can circumvent the usual limitations for thrown weapons to harass people with javelins while providing allies with Resistance, Disadvantage to be hit, damage reduction, and damage retribution all at the same time.
> 
> *Build 8:  The Ancestral Nightmare (Javelin Master / Grappler Tank)*
>  
> 
> *Simic Hybrid Ancestral Guardian Barbarian 16 / Battle Master 3 / Rogue 1*
> *Stats (Point Buy):*  16 Str / 14 Con / 14 Dex / 13 Wis / 10 Cha / 8 Int
> ...


Like this build.  Perhaps I should get my hands on a copy of Ravnica and try it out for myself.  As someone who likes to play barbarian, I would like to have options to ranged attacks other than "close the range to 5' and hit them.".

----------


## Zene

> I'm still gonna post the other 4 builds I mentioned, but it's a bit delayed since... I maaaay have written up the guide-length post, only to accidentally click off the reply page.  Whoops.  But here's another build to tide you over that I think you'll like.  Please let me know what you think!  
> 
> The Ancestral Nightmare is a flexible tank that, unlike the vast majority of Barbarians, allows you to lock down opponents in both melee and at range.  It can grapple multiple opponents at a time while still wielding a sword and shield, or it can circumvent the usual limitations for thrown weapons to harass people with javelins while providing allies with Resistance, Disadvantage to be hit, damage reduction, and damage retribution all at the same time.
> 
> *Build 8:  The Ancestral Nightmare (Javelin Master / Grappler Tank)*
>  
> 
> *Simic Hybrid Ancestral Guardian Barbarian 16 / Battle Master 3 / Rogue 1*
> *Stats (Point Buy):*  16 Str / 14 Con / 14 Dex / 13 Wis / 10 Cha / 8 Int
> ...


Awesome build. One minor note is that you dont get the rage damage bonus on thrown weapon attacks. But still, a very effective build.

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## Zigludo

Would you guys mind snipping that massive post out of the quotes in your posts?

EDIT: On-topic. For the Javelin build. 

You've written: "At range: You throw two weapons complete with Rage and Dueling bonuses, and your target is harassed by your ancestors." Now, this attack definitely applies the bonus from Dueling and from Ancestral Guardians, but I'm not sure it adds Rage damage. 

The rule for Rage says:
"When you make a melee weapon attack using Strength, you gain a bonus to the damage roll that increases as you gain levels as a barbarian, as shown in the Rage Damage column of the Barbarian table."

Now, when you throw a javelin, despite the fact that you're using a melee weapon and using strength, I believe you're actually making a ranged weapon attack. Not a melee weapon attack.
Full disclosure, at my table I allow it (because it just makes sense to me) but I don't think it's RAW.

----------


## LudicSavant

> Awesome build. One minor note is that you dont get the rage damage bonus on thrown weapon attacks. But still, a very effective build.





> *Snip*


Ah.  You are of course correct.  Javelins are "attacks with a melee weapon" and "melee-weapon attacks" but not "melee weapon attacks" according to the SAC.  Mentioning that it gets the Rage bonus is a mistake.  I shall fix that immediately.  Thanks!   :Small Smile: 

*Edit*:  Revised the build post accordingly.

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## OzDragon

This is fantastic with wonderful builds. LudicSavant would you possibly do a 1-10 rundown on the Arcana cleric VHuman with point buy? Idealy with spells perlevel and such. Im looking for the whole shebang. 

Also yes I plan on stealing it and using it in my next game!

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## MarkVIIIMarc

> I've posted him a few times already, but this souns like a good place to re-post:
> 
> *The Eldritch Blast Knight*
> 
> VHuman fighter (eldritch Knight) 7 Warlock (Infernal/Tome) 13
> 
> An unconventional gish build. Switch seemlessly from long range to melee range, push your enemies around into hazards or away from your squishies. With quick access to 3rd level slots, you get access to a good range of spells for decent area attacks (fireball) or control (Hunger of hadar) or movement (misty step/fly), even maybe counterspelling depending on your need. Action surge at level 7 gives you some nova potential, and hex with a great concentration check makes for some very decent sustained damage potential. Heavy armor and shield, coupled with thp on kil;s and decent hit dice, means you are not going down easy and can tank with the best of them. Access to all ritual spells and a familiar make you usefull outside of combat, and a high charisma score means you can be a decent party face. 
> 
> Stats
> ...


 I wanted to say thank you for taking the time to post that.

----------


## LudicSavant

Added Ancestral Barb DPR calcs to this post.

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## Skylivedk

Thank you, Ludic. This post and the thread about Out of Combat abilities for martials are my two favourite in a very long time.

For my next character(s), I've been theory craft brewing a bit on one of the following off-kilter tanks and would like your take on what you find most playable.
With prep (ie post Baleful Curse) calculations can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

*1. The Stab of All Trades*
Character concept is to leverage most of the different Cha-based classes for a character that can do pretty well across the board: skills, tanking and nova. Resources are on purpose spread to be always on, SR and LR.
Hexblade 5 (AB+Grasp of Hadar/Devil's Sight+Eldritch Smite)
Vengeance Paladin 6
(Lore) Bard 6
DS/Shadow/Dragon Sorc 3 for Quicken+Twin. There might be enough Bonus Actions for this to be redundant in which case more Bard levels or some Barb for the DMG resistance might be super kosher.
EDIT: 
I tested burst with a Battlemaster. With Action Surge and Baleful Curse down and double smite, you're looking at 205 DPR without advantage and 277 with advantage at level 20 vs AC 19. Probably a bit higher since this is with only Precision Attack and no sup dice for damage.
Quickened Booming Blade is clearly worse with a DPR of 138 and 204. Hence Battlemaster is clearly better for burst.

Another variation is to go for:
Hexblade 5
Conquest Paladin 7
Whisper Bard 5
Battlemaster 3
You end up with pretty insane nuke (triple smite + Action Surge), good control from all the fear and lockdown that follows a decent amount of skills and spell slots.



*2. The Tank of All Trades*
Hexblade 1
Arcane Trickster 9
Whisper/Lore Bard 10
The idea here was for a tanking rogue (with Armour of Agathys + Uncanny Dodge) that has an extreme amounts of skills and expertise along with good saving throws (Wisdom Prof from Warlock, Res:Con + Evasion get you all major bases covered) plus some crazy control due to AT 9 + Bard spell list. Whisper deals out a bit more punishment whereas Lore further emphasises the skill monkeyness to absurd levels and adds cutting words (combos well with AT9 and is occasionally better for tanking than Uncanny Dodge).
DPR is less impressive, but you still have good rounds with 110 and 168 (Baleful Curse, Bardic Inspiration, Psychic Blades and Elven Accuracy all included)

*3. The Never-Ending Ward*
Either the neo-classic Hexblade 2/3 (for infinite Mage Armour charges of the Arcane Ward) + Abjurer X

OR, my variation:

Svifnerblin Gnome
Conquest Paladin 3
Abjuration Wiz X
The idea here being combining Smites with AoA with the sexiness of being a Wizard and the combined anti-magic might of abjuration wizards and gnomes. Extremely hard to get rid off, extremely hard to ignore. A bit too MAD for my taste, but could be fun. 
14/10/14/16/8/13 
15/10/13/16/8/13
15/10/14/15/8/13
as starting stats. Second array for those who'd like Res:Con, 3rd for those who start above level 8. 
You want the Gnome Racial, Warcaster and/or RES:CON and Int. There's other possible cut off points at Conquest 4 and 6... even a case for 7 and 9.

... yeah, I know. AoA has stolen my heart. The damage potential of that spell is just crazy if you can mitigate the damage taken by the Temp HP.

EDIT:
The build works perfectly fine with Pala 2, Hexblade 1, Abjurer X.

I'd love to see your take on the Nuclear Wizard and your favourite version of the Iron Scoundrel build.

----------


## XmonkTad

The Iron Wizard build is the best thing I've seen all year. I've been looking for a wizard that's tankier than a barbarian with ritual caster and this seems like it!

----------


## Man_Over_Game

I'm not really sure why the Ancestral Nightmare should be focused on grapples.  Ancestral Guardian already has a pseudo-taunt effect, and the enemy will likely want to be sticking to the Barbarian like glue without any help from the Barbarian.

That is, grappling only really helps if the enemy doesn't already want to be next to you, and there's nothing that does that already like an Ancestral Guardian.  To me, it just seems really redundant.  Like adding Ritual Caster to a Wizard.

----------


## Klorox

> The Iron Wizard build is the best thing I've seen all year. I've been looking for a wizard that's tankier than a barbarian with ritual caster and this seems like it!


I really love that one too. So much. 

The only issue I see with it is there are so many feats you just really want to take you might neglect pumping INT too long.

----------


## LudicSavant

> grappling only really helps if the enemy doesn't already want to be next to you


I couldn't disagree more.

Grappling does a great deal more than simply getting a foe to attack you instead of someone else.  Here are _some_ of the highlights:

*1) Hazard Combos.*  AKA "How to make your casters very happy."

*Spoiler*
Show


Many abilities not only do recurrent damage if an enemy sticks round, but also extra damage if you have control over the enemy's movement, since they do damage when an enemy enters (willfully or not) _and_ at the start or end of their turn.  So by dragging people around you can make things like Spirit Guardians hit twice a round, or rack up damage on Spike Growth, or the like.

Consider for example a Wizard.  Usually you would think that they wouldn't deal a whole lot of resourceless damage.  However, they could have their familiar pour out a vial of oil on the ground, and they could light it with Create Bonfire, and you can drag the enemy in out of the space (guaranteeing that they take both the "enters" damage on your turn and "ends turn in the area" damage on theirs).  _And_ the Wizard is free on future rounds to cast something like, say, Toll the Dead.

_So this level 1 Wizard is contributing 2d8+10 (19) resourceless damage on round 1, and 2d8+1d12+10 (25.5) resourceless damage on round 2+_.  What's more is that Create Bonfire is an AoE (yes, 5 foot cubes can hit multiple creatures), and with Grappling Appendages you can grapple multiple people and drag 'em _all_ through.  That's about as efficient as Barbarians can get against multiple foes.

And that's just a cantrip used at tier 1.  Wait until the casters start breaking out the real guns.

In many party compositions this is a lot more value than just getting 1 more attack in.  This is especially true since you can do it to multiple people at a time.  And when you count that you will often have them prone-locked as well.


*2) Prone-locking.*  AKA "You can't hit me, everyone can hit you."

*Spoiler*
Show

An enemy who is shoved+grappled can't stand up unless they blow their entire Action on _attempting_ to break the grapple.  Otherwise they're stuck in a prone state, which gives them Disadvantage on their attacks against _you_ (not just all your allies) and gives Advantage to you (without needing to be Reckless) and all of your allies as well (who can all safely stand within 5 feet of the prone target because _none of you_ are good targets).

This provides a considerable offensive and defensive advantage.  A Barbarian that has a shield and Disadvantage to be hit will take considerably less damage than they would otherwise, rage or no rage.  This bullet point is even more relevant for an Ancestral Guardian, since the enemy has _more reason to attack them_ instead of allies, so you can take that extra durability right to the bank.  And granting ongoing Advantage to all your allies often provides more damage than a Barbarian would do on their own with that one attack and bonus action.

Against many enemies, this allows you to clear the encounter with almost no resources spent, including hit points.


3) *It can be done without Raging.*  A Barbarian does not generally have enough rages for a 6-encounter adventuring day, so your non-rage options are important.

4)  *Why Grappling?*

5)  *Target Control*:  This goes beyond merely a question of whether or not the enemy is attacking the tank, but extends to things like manipulating line of sight (often important with spellcasters), optimal cover and formations (like putting the guy with the breath weapon in a place his cone can't do squat), and so forth.

6)  *Ancestral Protectors Only Target One Enemy*:  Grappling allows you to lock down additional ones.


The upshot of all of this is that in many situations, grappling can contribute more to a party's performance than, say, a single extra Barbarian attack.  And when you're not in those situations, I made sure that the build had other good tools for those very cases.  (You've probably noticed by now, I like mah versatility  :Small Smile: ).

----------


## MaxWilson

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> An enemy who is shoved+grappled can't stand up unless they blow their entire Action on _attempting_ to break the grapple.  Otherwise they're stuck in a prone state, which gives them Disadvantage on their attacks against _you_ (not just all your allies) and gives Advantage to you (without needing to be Reckless) and all of your all of your allies as well (who can all safely stand within 5 feet of the prone target because _none of you_ are good targets).


*Spoiler: Off topic, grappling discussion*
Show

I agree that grappling is valuable, but I disagree with this bit here. They don't have to blow their entire action on attempting to break the grapple. An opponent with Extra Attack can instead spend their action on trying to Shove you out of grappling range, at which point the grapple ends, and they can then use their other attacks to do damage.

In practice I find that at mid-to-high levels the more serious limitation on grapple/prone is the fact that many enemies either cannot be grappled (due to size or no solid form) or else can teleport out of a grapple (sometimes as part of a Multiattack combo or as a legendary/bonus action).






> The upshot of all of this is that in many situations, grappling can contribute more to a party's performance than, say, a single extra Barbarian attack.  And when you're not in those situations, I made sure that the build had other good tools for those very cases.  (You've probably noticed by now, I like mah versatility ).


I 100% agree with this part though.

Also I want to note that an Ancestor Barb's Ancestral Protector's feature only affects the _first_ creature you hit with an attack on your turn, while raging, so it's easy to imagine scnenarios where you'd want to grapple/prone one enemy while hitting another, in order to take two different enemies sort of out of the fight. In principle you could even spend your first turn grappling two different enemies*, one with each arm, and then on subsequent turns head-butt a _third_ enemy to activate Ancestral Protector against them.

* You need someone else to knock them prone, e.g. the druid's conjured animals or a Grease or Sleet Storm spell.

----------


## LudicSavant

> Also I want to note that an Ancestor Barb's Ancestral Protector's feature only affects the _first_ creature you hit with an attack on your turn, while raging, so it's easy to imagine scnenarios where you'd want to grapple/prone one enemy while hitting another, in order to take two different enemies sort of out of the fight. In principle you could even spend your first turn grappling two different enemies*, one with each arm, and then on subsequent turns head-butt a _third_ enemy to activate Ancestral Protector against them.
> 
> * You need someone else to knock them prone, e.g. the druid's conjured animals or a Grease or Sleet Storm spell.


Indeed!  It's important to be able to deal with more than one enemy at a time.  I already mentioned that they could do this in the original AN post, but I'll add that bullet point to the grappling post.




> They don't have to blow their entire action on attempting to break the grapple. An opponent with Extra Attack can instead spend their action on trying to Shove you out of grappling range, at which point the grapple ends, and they can then use their other attacks to do damage.


That's true.  Certain monsters do not have to use their entire Action to get up.

Shoving the Ancestral Nightmare is _tough_ though.  They scale all the way up to +17+Advantage grappling, and the vast majority of monsters don't have Athletics, so I don't find this to be an issue all that often.

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## MaxWilson

> That's true.  Certain monsters do not have to use their entire Action to get up.
> 
> Shoving the Ancestral Nightmare is _tough_ though.  They scale all the way up to +17+Advantage grappling, and the vast majority of monsters don't have Athletics, so I don't find this to be an issue all that often.


Yeah, as I mentioned, in practice it's teleportation and not Shoving that gives grapplers issues. (Plus monsters who are too big or too insubstantial to be grappled.) Githyanki are so annoying. :-P

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## LudicSavant

> Thank you, Ludic. This post and the thread about Out of Combat abilities for martials are my two favourite in a very long time.
> 
> For my next character(s), I've been theory craft brewing a bit on one of the following off-kilter tanks and would like your take on what you find most playable.
> 
> *snip builds*
> 
> ... yeah, I know. AoA has stolen my heart. The damage potential of that spell is just crazy if you can mitigate the damage taken by the Temp HP.
> 
> I'd love to see your take on the Nuclear Wizard and your favourite version of the Iron Scoundrel build.


You sir are _addicted_ to Armor of Agathys!   :Small Smile:   It occurs to me that the Ancestral Barbarian posted above actually makes a pretty good teammate to an AoA build, since they grant Resistance _and_ damage reduction to their allies (and unlike a typical AB isn't too uncomfortable backing up and letting someone else rotate in).  AoA builds are always looking for resistance and damage reduction.

Other good allies for an AoA build are Abjurers and Lore Bards.  As nice as AoA setups are on their own, it's even better with party synergy  :Small Smile: 

So lemme take a look at these builds...




> For my next character(s), I've been theory craft brewing a bit on one of the following off-kilter tanks and would like your take on what you find most playable.





> *3. The Never-Ending Ward*
> Either the neo-classic Hexblade 2/3 (for infinite Mage Armour charges of the Arcane Ward) + Abjurer X
> 
> OR, my variation:
> 
> Svifnerblin Gnome
> Conquest Paladin 3
> Abjuration Wiz X
> The idea here being combining Smites with AoA with the sexiness of being a Wizard and the combined anti-magic might of abjuration wizards and gnomes. Extremely hard to get rid off, extremely hard to ignore. A bit too MAD for my taste, but could be fun. 
> ...


So for the Pal 3/Abjurer X, you don't actually have enough ASIs for the gnome racial, Warcaster, Res:Con, and Max Int.  The build only gets 4 ASIs and the first one is delayed until level 7.  I'm also unsure that the smites are worth the delay in casting progression.  And as you said the build's quite MAD; besides your Channel Divinity you might struggle to hit with those smites.

The Hexblade/Abjurer setup seems more promising to my first impression.  It might be worthwhile to delay the second level of Hexblade until you get some good Wizard tools under your belt first though.  Maybe after Wizard 5.




> *2. The Tank of All Trades*
> Hexblade 1
> Arcane Trickster 9
> Whisper/Lore Bard 10
> The idea here was for a tanking rogue (with Armour of Agathys + Uncanny Dodge) that has an extreme amounts of skills and expertise along with good saving throws (Wisdom Prof from Warlock, Res:Con + Evasion get you all major bases covered) plus some crazy control due to AT 9 + Bard spell list. Whisper deals out a bit more punishment whereas Lore further emphasises the skill monkeyness to absurd levels and *adds cutting words (combos well with AT9* and is occasionally better for tanking than Uncanny Dodge).


What's the intended combo for Cutting Words + AT 9 (Magical Ambush) here?  

Cutting Words activates "When a creature that you can see within 60 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a damage roll" and does not help against saving throws.

Anyways, seems like it could work out.  You max your Charisma by 9 and can pick up War Caster from Variant Human.  You then put enemies in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation by standing next to them with AoA; they either attack you and have to go through Medium Armor / Shield / Uncanny Dodge / AoA, or walk away and eat a Booming Blade Sneak Attack.  Nobody likes being hit by Booming Blade Sneak Attacks.  And at higher levels, you'll be able to combine Magical Ambush with an accelerated spell progression from Bard, though that takes a while to come online.

Personally I think I'd be more inclined towards the Whispers Bard since it'll help keep your melee attack relevant in this case.  Cutting Words is competing with your already solid list of reactions, and you're already picking up a selection of low level spells off non-Bard lists (which is what the level 6 Magical Secrets would be doing for you).

*Edit*  Some quick Anydice calcs:  https://anydice.com/program/15c8e

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## Skylivedk

> You sir are _addicted_ to Armor of Agathys!    It occurs to me that the Ancestral Barbarian posted above actually makes a pretty good teammate to an AoA build, since they grant Resistance _and_ damage reduction to their allies (and unlike a typical AB isn't too uncomfortable backing up and letting someone else rotate in).  AoA builds are always looking for resistance and damage reduction.


I know! And depending on your ruling, Redemption Paladins are extremely lovable as well. And anyone with Warding Bond (maybe in the backline stepdancing in a Healing Spirit) is your BFF as well. I tried AoA on my GWM Hexblade and after the first couple of combats having it outdamage any other source of damage... What can I say. It was hard to let go of me trying to optimise it further. Also; I kinda love the non-tank looking tanks. It breaks hard with stereotypes in a pretty cool way, IMO.




> Other good allies for an AoA build are Abjurers and Lore Bards.  As nice as AoA setups are on their own, it's even better with party synergy


No doubt. It's just not always feasible. Also, you probably want something else in your sleeve once those damn Cold Immune critters come along




> So for the Pal 3/Abjurer X, you don't actually have enough ASIs for the gnome racial, Warcaster, Res:Con, and Max Int.  The build only gets 4 ASIs and the first one is delayed until level 7.  I'm also unsure that the smites are worth the delay in casting progression.  And as you said the build's quite MAD; besides your Channel Divinity you might struggle to hit with those smites.


I know - I'd probably let go of either Res:Con or maxing Int. Since we're talking about a tank, that max int is perhaps not necessary. Other options, even though they make want to cry a little on the inside of my otherwise hairy manly-man chest, is to go 4 Paladin... but then again; 6 Paladin is right around the corner, and then 7 level Paladin with your amount of spell slots to utterly cripple anyone within 10 feet of you (can't move, can only hit you at disadvantage and if they do hit, eat AoA) is tempting. It's definitely different :D




> The Hexblade/Abjurer setup seems more promising to my first impression.  It might be worthwhile to delay the second level of Hexblade until you get some good Wizard tools under your belt first though.  Maybe after Wizard 5.


 Yup. AoA is not all that in the beginning either. It picks up once you have some higher spell slots. As far as I can see it's one of the best damaging upcast scales in the game.





> What's the intended combo for Cutting Words + AT 9 (Magical Ambush) here?  
> 
> Cutting Words activates "When a creature that you can see within 60 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a damage roll" and does not help against saving throws.


Mostly my idiocy. Forgot it didn't hit saving throws. A more proud person would have said: having both means that no matter the disable (ability check from illusions or saving throw), you've got the tool for the job. But yeah... Idiocy.




> Anyways, seems like it could work out.  You max your Charisma by 9 and can pick up War Caster from Variant Human.  You then put enemies in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation by standing next to them with AoA; they either attack you and have to go through Medium Armor / Shield / Uncanny Dodge / AoA, or walk away and eat a Booming Blade Sneak Attack.  Nobody likes being hit by Booming Blade Sneak Attacks.  And at higher levels, you'll be able to combine Magical Ambush with an accelerated spell progression from Bard, though that takes a while to come online.
> 
> Personally I think I'd be more inclined towards the Whispers Bard since it'll help keep your melee attack relevant in this case.  Cutting Words is competing with your already solid list of reactions, and you're already picking up a selection of low level spells off non-Bard lists (which is what the level 6 Magical Secrets would be doing for you).
> 
> *Edit*  Some quick Anydice calcs:  https://anydice.com/program/15c8e


Point taken. I've not played Whisper before... And I do love stealing spells with Magical Secrets + more proficiencies. Thank you for the anydice; it seems like pretty reasonable damage from a tank (unless I'm completely off my rocker). Especially considering all the other things you bring to the table.

Was it on purpose you skipped one of the builds? The quad-build. What I like about all of them is the amount of thinking they take. You have plenty of options every turn for all parts of your action economy. Even your positioning is more key than for most people; your movement can cause damage as you step in and out of threat ranges (step-dancing mooks to their own death is hilarious).

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## Tallytrev813

Ok, i've been talking this up in random threads but i think it's a SUPER cool build, so im going to put it in here. The idea is great, it's STRAIGHT Totem Barbarian, so it's simple. You're going to abuse the damage resistance and add a few Feats to become the stickiest, and IMO best, single target tank available.



KING LEONIDAS BARBARIAN:

Variant Human, Start 16/14/16/8/10/8
Feat: Polearm Master

Level 1:
Start with a Spear and Shield
Your AC is 17, you have huge hit die/HP pool, and you get a bonus action attack to abuse RAGE damage.

Your DPS is strong...way strong (1d6+5 + 1d4+5 each turn), your survivability is great.

Level 2: 
Reckless Attack and Danger Sense give you solid situational attack buff and great Dex saves.

Level 3:
Choose Bear totem. You're now a Bear, you get 1/2 damage to almost everything.

Level 4:
ASI - Sentinel
You now become pretty sticky as a tank, your HP continues to skyrocket. Non-Casters have trouble getting away from you.

Level 5:
Extra attack + Fast Movement
You're faster, so they cant run. Extra attack now means you're hitting them 3 times per turn, plus utilizing a reaction attack (Either from PAM when they come within range of you, or from Sentinel if they try to run).

Level 6:
Pick whichever path feature you like that fits your campaign. If the DM pays attention to encumbrance or travel a lot, take Bear or Elk. If its a lot of woods and outdoors, take Eagle. If you want skills, Tiger. Pick whichever.

Level 7:
Feral Instinct
Now you have Adv on initiative...meaning theres a good chance you get to go before the badguys...meaning you are in their face before they can hit your party.

Level 8:
ASI: Feat - Mage Slayer
Now, you have become about as sticky as it gets. If they're a melee or Archer, Sentinel locks them down. If they're a caster, Mage Slayer absolutely destroys their concentration spells and provides you AoO's - AND gives you defense against them casting spells on you! You are a monster single target tank, and once you get in a badguys face...they're going nowhere.
==================================================  ====

Feel free, from this point on, to build as you see fit. 
If you get get a +Strength item (Belt of Giant Strength, Gauntlets of Ogre Power) awesome, it means you can pick up Resilient Feat for Wisdom saves. Your remaining ASI's should go to Strength, Resilient - Wisdom, and/or Con depending on what you want to do (Damage vs tank).

Worth mentioning, when you get to level 14 - take Bear totem. Your already sticky tank becomes unbelievably epicly sticky (Imposes disadvantage when they don't attack you).

Essentially, you're a shirtless Spear/Shield barrel chested human who cant be taken down and stabs the crap out of everyone.

YOU'RE KING LEONIDAS

Love to hear all of your thoughts on this, I love it in theory but havent been in a game thats gotten high enough where im doing this build to use it.

Edit: You could, Techincally, do this without Spear/Shield and go Halbert or something and pick up GWM later to really do a ton of damage, though you'd sacrifice quite a bit of tanky-survivability

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## Skylivedk

> SNIP


No offense, but it seems neither fun, nor eclectic to me. Not fun, because the build has limited options in and out of combat. Not eclectic, because it's super standard.

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## LudicSavant

Hey Tallytrev, thanks for posting!   :Small Smile: 




> Love to hear all of your thoughts on this, I love it in theory but havent been in a game thats gotten high enough where im doing this build to use it.


My quick 2cp:
*1)* Your damage starts off solid, but does not scale especially well without magic items or buffs.
*Spoiler: Why this is*
Show


Anydice data posted represents your DPR at all levels, and with a variety of different conditions (rage or not, reckless or not, round 2+ of rage or not since you don't get your bonus action on round 1 of rage) against the average AC of a monster with a CR equal to your level.  As you can see you're looking at figures like 17-36 DPR at level 19, plus another ~9 if you get a reaction attack.

Part of this is just the nature of straight-class SnB Bar-bear-ians (I mentioned something about this in the Ancestral Nightmare post, and how I worked around it in that particular case), another part is your delay in getting Strength boosts (obviously mitigated if you can procure a Giant's Belt), and yet another part is the limited synergy between the Barbarian's kit and Leondidas's feats (for example, you can't bonus action attack on a round you enter rage, and you can't apply Reckless Attack to reaction attacks due to the "on _your_ turn" wording).

*2)* The fact that you can't benefit from Reckless Attack on reactions and you're not maxing Strength until level 16 means that you have a fairly high chance of missing with Sentinel and just letting people walk by you. 
*Spoiler: Example*
Show


So for example, at level 11 against an "average CR 11" foe, you can expect 11 (entering rage / nonreckless) to 24 (already raging / reckless) DPR on your turn, and only a 55% chance of landing a Sentinel hit if they decide to walk away from you.

*3)* Don't count on being in rage all the time; you don't have enough for a 6-encounter adventuring day until level 17.  Not specifically directed at you, but just a note on Barb builds in general.

*4)* I would recommend taking Str boosts or Res(Wis) before Mage Slayer.  Not only is Mage Slayer situational, but there's enough ways for smart mage players to play around it that it may not be a lot more valuable against them than some more general purpose feats are.  YMMV.

*5)* If you wanna Shove/Grapple, you have to put your spear away to free up a hand (doffing the shield would take an action).  You can at least throw the spear in your hand, then draw another spear.

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## Tallytrev813

I suppose the later levels would be less about DPR and more about tanking - since the idea of the build was made to be disruptive in different ways (And sacrifice lots of damage for a shield). I was hoping all the additional attacks would make up for most of the DPR (The reaction attacks and bonus attacks). How much effectiveness would be added by maxing strength early and delaying Mageslayer?

I had envisioned a character that was Uber tough who utilized most of his offensive effectiveness via imposing the effects of Sentinel and Mageslayer through multiple attacks. Reducing speeds to 0, disrupting concentration, and imposing disadvantage on the enemy for not focusing on the barbarian - which is kind of what the traditional tank does in my experience.

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## LudicSavant

> I suppose the later levels would be less about DPR and more about tanking - since the idea of the build was made to be disruptive in different ways (And sacrifice lots of damage for a shield). How much effectiveness would be added by maxing strength early and delaying Mageslayer?


Getting a +2 Str at level 8 instead of Mage Slayer would add about 15% more DPR over levels 8-15.  And landing stuff like Sentinel a bit more often.  And of course a bit better on Str saves/checks.




> I had envisioned a character that was Uber tough who utilized most of his offensive effectiveness via imposing the effects of Sentinel and Mageslayer through multiple attacks. Reducing speeds to 0, disrupting concentration, and imposing disadvantage on the enemy for not focusing on the barbarian - which is kind of what the traditional tank does in my experience.


*Nod*

One effective way to help lock people down as a Barbarian in particular is shoving/grappling.

For a Barbarian it has a very high chance of working, especially if you grab 1 level of Rogue (or pick up Prodigy or something).  For example a raging 20 Str / 6 proficiency / Rogue 1 Barbarian has a what, 98% chance to successfully shove a 20 Strength creature?  90% against a 30 strength creature?

It also allows you to get Advantage without using Reckless, and granting the enemy Disadvantage to hit you... which will make a big difference in the case of a shield-wielding Barbarian.

The limitation is against folks like teleporters, but Sentinel won't stop the movement of those enemies either.  Another limitation is that you can't use it against enemies who are too big.

As for damage, it's not your main job but there are some good ways to boost your progression at the later levels without really affecting your tankiness much (such as dipping Fighter).  Generally speaking there's not a whole lot of hotness after Barbarian 15 (it's mostly just the capstone), so feel free to grab some features elsewhere.

*Edit*



> Level 6:
> Pick whichever path feature you like that fits your campaign. If the DM pays attention to encumbrance or travel a lot, take Bear or Elk. If its a lot of woods and outdoors, take Eagle. If you want skills, Tiger. Pick whichever.


One more random Barb tip I'll add: *Don't take Wolf Totem at level 6*.  The reason for this is because it's basically a straight up worse version of Elk.  Here's why:

Wolf 6 basically lets you do certain actions while moving at a Normal or Fast pace instead of a Slow one.   _Elk 6 makes the entire party's Slow pace equal to the Wolf's fast pace_, and therefore accomplishes everything Wolf does and more.

But aside from that, yeah, pick whichever suits your taste.   :Small Smile:

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## Tallytrev813

> Getting a +2 Str at level 8 instead of Mage Slayer would add about 15% more DPR over levels 8-15.  And landing stuff like Sentinel a bit more often.  And of course a bit better on Str saves/checks.
> 
> 
> 
> *Nod*
> 
> One effective way to help lock people down as a Barbarian in particular is shoving/grappling.
> 
> For a Barbarian it has a very high chance of working, especially if you grab 1 level of Rogue (or pick up Prodigy or something).  For example a raging 20 Str / 6 proficiency / Rogue 1 Barbarian has a what, 98% chance to successfully shove a 20 Strength creature?  90% against a 30 strength creature?
> ...


For whatever reason, i just hate the flavor of a grappling tank. You know?
It just doesnt fit my mental picture correctly...like grab a guy and tackle them to the floor and bear hug them?

Also, as much as i think there's awesome stuff to get from the dips...you lose the capstone. And, IMO, the Barbarian capstone may be the best in the game. Especially with all the tankiness you get from the extra +2 con in addition to the 24 +7mod strength.


And yah - the wolf aspect at lvl 6 is very meh.
I normally take Eagle. DMs in real life tend to shy away from encumbrance and travel speed in my experience.

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## Aidamis

Bookmarked. Thanks for the compilation, all of those ideas sound great!

On the topic of builds, could you please give me feedback on mine? it's a weird (not super serious nor necessarily competitive) build idea:

low-level honorary "Fighter" War Wizard: a Charlatan background medieval James Bond knock-off posing as a Fighter when he's actually a mage.

At 1st level, we have a VHuman with Resilient (Con), 8 Str, 15+1 Dex, 13+1 Con, 15+1 Int, 9 Wis, 12 Cha.
Fights with two daggers and occasionally fires off a hand crossbow shot.
Hides his magical gem spellcasting focus in one of the daggers.
Wears leather clothes that pass as armor in appearance but actually uses Mage Armor and sometimes Shield.
Skilled in Deception, Stealth, and Sleight of Hand. Dresses well, carries a fake signet ring, forged papers and other lineage documents, Knight's Tale style. 


Work-in-progress build I intend to use on a quest-giver NPC or for pre built character options.

Thanks for the feedback!

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## LudicSavant

> Bookmarked. Thanks for the compilation, all of those ideas sound great!


 :Small Smile: 




> On the topic of builds, could you please give me feedback on mine? it's a weird (not super serious nor necessarily competitive) build idea:
> 
> low-level honorary "Fighter" War Wizard: a Charlatan background medieval James Bond knock-off posing as a Fighter when he's actually a mage.
> 
> At 1st level, we have a VHuman with Resilient (Con), 8 Str, 15+1 Dex, 13+1 Con, 15+1 Int, 9 Wis, 12 Cha.
> Fights with two daggers and occasionally fires off a hand crossbow shot.
> Hides his magical gem spellcasting focus in one of the daggers.
> Wears leather clothes that pass as armor in appearance but actually uses Mage Armor and sometimes Shield.
> Skilled in Deception, Stealth, and Sleight of Hand. Dresses well, carries a fake signet ring, forged papers and other lineage documents, Knight's Tale style. 
> ...


At a low enough level just having 16 Dex and some daggers is good enough to give you 2d4+3, so this will work there... though obviously it won't scale much beyond that.  Plus your familiar can add some more contribution.  The main issue will be the fact that you have just 8 hit points in melee (a typical Fighter will have 12-13).

If you want to have a worthwhile melee attack as a Wizard later on, there are at least two ways to do it:  SCAGtrips, or Bladesinger using the right buff spells.

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## Aidamis

> At a low enough level just having 16 Dex and some daggers is good enough to give you 2d4+3, so this will work there... though obviously it won't scale much beyond that.  Plus your familiar can add some more contribution.  The main issue will be the fact that you have just 8 hit points in melee (a typical Fighter will have 12-13).
> 
> If you want to have a worthwhile melee attack as a Wizard later on, there are at least two ways to do it:  SCAGtrips, or Bladesinger using the right buff spells.


Thank you LudicSavant. You're right for reminding me of the low HP :) Bladesinger looks like an interesting subclass and and the "SCAGtrips" sound good. You mentionned buff spells - I could get Magic Initiate with Bless. I can live with 1/long rest Bless since Bladesong is 2/short or long rest anyway, or I can be nice to my teammates and get buffs for free ^^.

ps: currently reading your half-feats post. Good stuff.

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## LudicSavant

> Thank you LudicSavant. You're right for reminding me of the low HP :) Bladesinger looks like an interesting subclass and and the "SCAGtrips" sound good. You mentionned buff spells - I could get Magic Initiate with Bless. I can live with 1/long rest Bless since Bladesong is 2/short or long rest anyway, or I can be nice to my teammates and get buffs for free ^^.
> 
> ps: currently reading your half-feats post. Good stuff.


Here's a resource for Bladesingers:  http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...thar-s-Edition

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## MeeposFire

I really like the celestial generalist and I think there is room to reduce say melee some to get access to even more potential versatility.  To make room for that melee you have to spend 3 cantrips to make it work which is obviously viable but if you really want some more cantrips you can give up booming blade, greenflame blade, and shillelagh and pick up 3 other cantrips you really love.  In that case your "melee" option is sacred flame.  It is not as good especially since it does not get a situational bump like the melee cantrips but it can do the job and since it is a save spell it can be used in melee with no problems.  You do give up some capability in melee but if you really want/need more cantrip versatility it is an option and you do not give up the ability to be able to do something to someone in melee range (and can use the opportunity attack from warcaster).  It also gives a reason to have sacred flame even though you have no choice and it is not something that everyone cares about.

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## Mjolnirbear

Warlord Battlemaster (Support Fighter)

So at the base of it, a fighter must fight.  That's their function, the reason they have so many blasted attacks each round.  But that doesn't mean a fighter must *only* fight.  Here's my take on a support fighter, and a likely contender for a leader-type build too.  It's a halfling because of the halfling racial feat; but any Charisma race can be valuable, or going vHuman to get more goodies sooner. 

*Warlord Halfling* (Battlemaster Fighter support build)
*Suggested Feats*:  Bountiful Luck, Healer, Inspiring Leader, Martial Adept, Shield Master, Sentinel, Ritual Caster, Magic Initiate _(More or less any order or priority you prefer)_

*Suggested Stats*:  Dexterity > Charisma = Constitution _(You could prioritize Charisma for Rally and Inspiring Leader, depending on when you pick up Inspiring Leader, but your attacks and maneuver save DCs rely on Dex.  As support, you don't really need higher than a 16 in anything)._

*Suggested Fighting Style*:  Protection, of course

*Suggested Maneuvers*:  Commander's Strike, Rally, Goading Attack, Trip Attack, Distracting Strike, Maneuvering Attack (The first three should be your picks at level 3)

This build is online at level 1 (if vHuman) or level 3.  Because a fighter has so many feats, it will be easy to get what you need.  You get two maneuvers per fight until you get six Superiority Dice.   Protection Fighting Style or Sentinel can reliably use your reaction while Commander's Strike and Shield Master reliably use your bonus action.  

Prioritize Commander's Strike if: you have a rogue in the party, or an enemy is stunned or unconscious or paralysed (because of crits). Use Goading Attack if your squishies are targeted. Prioritize Rally on front-line fighters or those who are badly wounded.  

You can build this many different ways. Bountiful Luck, Sentinel and Protection fighting style compete for your reaction; instead of a halfling,  you could build a dragonborn with Dragon Fear.  Find Familiar can grant bonus help actions to your allies. Both Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster can net Find Familiar as well as other good picks to help your teammates.

Good Magic Initiate picks:
 Fog Cloud (auto-escape) Sanctuary (protection) Faerie Fire Bless Goodberry
Cantrips:  Thorn Whip, Mending, Guidance, Message, Friends (take the attention off the too-plucky wizard, and keep it)

Good Ritual Caster picks
 Alarm Unseen Servant Tenser's Floating Disc Detect Magic / Identify

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## Mjolnirbear

*Dragonriders* (Sort of)

This is a fun little project which has various builds.  If your DM is lenient, beg him to put Dragon's Breath from XGtE onto your class list, perhaps as a 'racial spell'.

*Kobold Paladin*

The Kobold Paladin comes online when it gets access to Find Steed.  While not on the spell's official list of available steeds, a Giant Lizard is in line with most other mounts.  Another option would be a raptor dinosaur, such as a young Deinonychus or Elder Velociraptor.

*Suggested Stats:*  Prioritize Dex for ranged combat (especially if your steed has a climb speed) or Charisma for spells.  
*Suggested Spells:*  Find Steed (Required); Dragon's Breath (DM willing); Heroism, Divine Favour, or Shield of Faith (in melee combat); Branding Smite for ranged combat
*Suggested Feats:*  Mounted Combat; Crossbow Expert (if going ranged); Warcaster; 

Heroism, Barding, and Shield of Faith can help obviate the need for Mounted Combat.  Warcaster with Command is a truly amazing combination.  Your fighting style should probably be Defense or Duelling, though using Protection with your mount can be a good combo as well.  You will almost always have Pack Tactics helping you attack.

This build also works if you fight side-by-side with your mount.  Your mount would be able to attack more often but would be at greater risk.  

*Kobold Inventor* Kobold Artificer Battlesmith, Fighter 1 dip (optional)
A Battle Smith is the subclass of choice here, since Iron Defender can take any medium form. You can even fluff it as having (useless) wings.  

*Suggested Stats:* Intelligence > Dexterity = Constitution
*Suggested Infusions:*  Thrown Weapon (if dipping for Duelling Fighting Style) or Repeating Weapon
*Suggested Spells:*  Animated Object, Tiny Servant, Arcane Weapon, Warding Bond

With the Thrown Weapon infusion (with minature dragon wings doing the 'returning') and the Duelling fighting style, you can fight at range yet still benefit from +3 damage per throw and your weapon can 'breathe fire'.  You don't need Mounted Combat because your Iron Defender is tough (and potentially not a mount since mounts are creatures, not objects).  Create tiny dragon figures out of metal for your Tiny Servant and Animated Object spells.  Use Warding Bond with your Iron Defender to spread out the damage you take and either let it die or have it repair itself.


*Kobold Packmaster* (Shepherd Druid)
You thought this would be the ranger, I bet.  But no, you have far, far more fun as a druid!  This is how you make your DM tear out her hair in frustration.  To avoid problems and slowing combat, have all your viable creatures' information ready immediately, and keep your commands simple.

*Suggested Stats:*  Wisdom > Dex = Con
*Suggested Spirit:*  Bear most of the time
*Suggested Spells:*  Conjure Animals, Conjure Minor Elementals

You can start with this spell when you get Conjure Animals, which will last you longer than most other casters because your swarm of velociraptors will be much tougher than usual.  When you summon minor elementals, you can fluff them as tiny elemental dragons instead of mephits.

----------


## Mjolnirbear

*The Undecided Spare*

_Every noble couple needs to set about making some zerglings to fight the family's wars and run the family's businesses. They call these spawn the Heir and the Spare, because children aren't people and apparently have no feelings.  So you grow up where your only purpose depends on your sib dying, and Dad wonders why you can't pick one job and stick with it.  

Or so says you, The Spare._

The objective here is to make a viable build involving nothing but low-level dips (no higher than level 3).  As a consequence, Extra Attack will be unattainable, as well as knowledge of high-level spells. You'll have high-level spell slots, however, and we'll need to take levels in either warlock, moon druid, or paladin to best make use of them.  

Due to having only a single attack, attack boosters such as Sneak Attack and the SCAG cantrips will be very effective. Due to having multiple classes and hence dependance on multiple attributes and the lack of feats, you should build using either Dexterity or Charisma, but Strength is also viable.  

*The Dabbler (Physical Build)*
*Suggested Stats:*  16/14/14/8/10/13 (if Barbarian) or 10/16/14/8/14/12 (if Monk)
*Suggested Classes:*  Fighter (Battlemaster), Rogue (Any), Barbarian (Any), Monk (Any)

The Dabbler cannot really go further than Tier 3, without either taking on a spellcasting class or going higher than level 3.  It suffers for a complete lack of ASIs and Extra Attack but gives a ton of utility options via Maneuvers, Rage, rogue skills and more--with so many short-rest resources, you almost always have something besides "I attack" to do.  If you decide you must have a feat such as PAM, GWM, or Magic Initiate (for Booming Blade mostly), go vHuman.

I recommend dual-weilding daggers, the two-weapon fighting style, and medium armor instead of relying on Unarmored Defense if you go Barbarian. You could be a dwarf and do Battlerager to get a bonus action attack instead, in which case use Duelling fighting style or Defense.  Start with Barbarian because of survivability. In the event that you want to splash some spellcasting, I'd recommend Paladin for smites, or Warlock for invocations and pact boon.

For the monk build you need a weapon that is both Finesse and a monk weapon.  Kensai increases your options here. You cannot wear armor or use shields so you are squishier, but you also have more attacks and more versatility due to Ki.  If you want some spellcasting, splash some Cleric or Druid in there.  Moon druid would use up spell slots for longevity, and grant you mulitattack for when you run out of Ki.

There are a lot of different ways to flavour your Dabbler.  Assassin and Shadow Monk offer a totally different feel than Totem Warrior and Scout.  For a semi-caster, you can change Battlemaster for Eldritch Knight, add Arcane Trickster, and then go 4-element monk.  Interestingly, you can give a very Starfire feel with Sun Soul monk. Zealot/Vengeance Paladin makes for a great Templar or Inquisitor.  





*The Dilettante (Charisma Build)*
*Suggested Stats:*  Charisma > Dexterity 
*Suggested Classes:*  Warlock, Sorcerer, Paladin, Bard, Cleric or Druid

You are a spellcaster, but you can choose to fight with a melee build or go pure caster.  Build with Hexblade if you plan on going melee; any other Patron works for the caster version.  This Spare can go high levels and will always have a use for its spell slots via Paladin Smites or Sorcery Points.  Most interesting is how many cantrips you get; you can choose a few damage options and then all the fun story cantrips to use during Social and Exploration.

The melee version will require a SCAG cantrip such as Booming Blade.  A splash of Tempest Cleric for Destructive Wrath, Wrath of the Storm and Heavy Armor, or Arcana Cleric extra cantrips and Heavy Armor, could be beneficial.  You can start with Sorcerer for the Constitution proficiency, or either Paladin or Cleric for better armor and more hit points.  You can use your higher spell slots as a source of Sorcery Points to quicken Booming Blade, and as Smite fodder.  You do not need Pact of the Blade unless you want to use Charisma with a heavy or two-handed weapon. If you must have a feat, choose vHuman.

The caster version will not be smiting; all the excess spell slots will go to Sorcery Points and upcast spells.  Your main damage is likely Hex plus Agonizing Blast, possibly twice if  you choose Quicken for your metamagic (heck yes!).  This is your most efficient use of resources, but your ability to upcast low-level spells is pretty amazing.  You can pump out upcast Hold Persons, Magic Missiles, Thunderwave, Scorching Rays, or other great spells.

The dilettante has near-infinite flavour options.  Go fey with Feylock, Druid, Ancients Paladin. A 'cursed' theme with Warlock and Wild Magic Sorcerer.  A Vengeance theme with Fiendlock and Vengeance Paladin.

----------


## OBoyd

> *The Undecided Spare*
> 
> _Every noble couple needs to set about making some zerglings to fight the family's wars and run the family's businesses. They call these spawn the Heir and the Spare, because children aren't people and apparently have no feelings.  So you grow up where your only purpose depends on your sib dying, and Dad wonders why you can't pick one job and stick with it.  
> 
> Or so says you, The Spare._
> 
> The objective here is to make a viable build involving nothing but low-level dips (no higher than level 3).  As a consequence, Extra Attack will be unattainable, as well as knowledge of high-level spells. You'll have high-level spell slots, however, and we'll need to take levels in either warlock, moon druid, or paladin to best make use of them.  
> 
> Due to having only a single attack, attack boosters such as Sneak Attack and the SCAG cantrips will be very effective. Due to having multiple classes and hence dependance on multiple attributes and the lack of feats, you should build using either Dexterity or Charisma, but Strength is also viable.  
> ...


Nice idea. Ranger has the same MC restrictions as Paladin, so you could add another 3 levels there as well.

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## Story_Optimized

_You feel my pain._

Here's one I've been playing around with: a melee warlock based around passive damage. The point of this build is to preserve, as much as possible, the warlock's action economy whilst damaging the enemy. The build isn't bad levels 1-5, and then explodes into action at level 6. As the title suggests, mostly this occurs through retributive effects when the warlock gets hit. It's not bad in a party, but could also serve as a fairly solid solo character. 

There are other ways to get at a similar build - but I thought this was an interesting take on things for a Warlock. Happy to take suggestions!  

15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 - Standard point array
Tiefling of Levistus -  (+2 Cha, +1 Con)
Str - 8
Dex - 12
Con - 14
Wis - 14
Int - 10
Cha - 17

Background - GGtR: Orzhov. Orzhov gives you two third-level spells that really improve this build: spirit guardians, and bestow curse. (No need for Sign of Ill Omen!) Both don't come online till later though. 

Level 1 - Storm Cleric 1 
10 HP, AC 17 (Scale Mail, Dex +1, Shield) - Get either Half Plate or Breastplate as soon as you can. 
Storm Cleric nets you heavy armor, shields, and the "Wrath of the Storm" ability. You're decently hard to hit, though your attack damage will be much better with your cantrips than your sword. Basically, you can deal 2d8 damage with your reaction to someone who has damaged you with a melee attack, and it recharges on a short rest, like all of your future warlock abilities long rest. This build can do this 2x per day short rest, or up to 6x per day if you can get 3 short rests in. You also get three cantrips, and proficiency with martial weapons. Your physical stats aren't great, so I would recommend a finesse weapon like a rapier or scimitar. 
Suggested spells: _fog cloud, thunderwave_ (free!), _guiding bolt, shield of faith, cure wounds_.
Cantrips: _Friends, guidance_ (free), _toll the dead, mending, thaumaturgy._ You're going to get a lot more cantrips, so pick social/exploration heavy ones here.  
Spell slots: 2 level 1 Cleric spells 

*Passive damage* - 9, on avg. 2x per short rest.

Level 2 - Storm Cleric 1, Fiendpact Warlock 1 (X from now on).
Warlock gives you _Armor of Agathys_, which is going to be the primary spell of this build for... well, the rest of your adventuring career. It lasts an hour, doesn't require concentration, gives you a mini shield of 5 temporary hit points, and does 5 no-save cold damage to anyone who hits you with a melee attack while the temporary hit points remain. These temp hp won't stack with Dark One's Blessing, but that's ok. More importantly, you can afford to burn two first level cleric slots to keep recharging AoA; at this point, you can recharge that shield 4x in a row before you need a short rest. Or, you can burn that cleric spell slot on _Hex_, and do more damage with your melee attacks. 
Cantrips: _Green-flame blade, eldritch blast_, 1 optional (_lightning lure, blade ward_, etc.)
Spell slots: 2 level 1 Cleric spells (_Hex_, AoA)
1 Warlock spell slot (AoA)

*Passive damage* - 14 on avg, 2x per short rest, 5 thereafter

Levels 3 -5  (Cleric 1 / Warlock 4) 
Level 3 gives you invocations, a free 1x per day 2nd level AoA, and second level spells. Grasp of Hadar will let you pull your enemies to you to encourage them to attack you, instead of your possibly squishier friends. Other invocations to consider are the ever popular "Agonizing Blast" and "Devil's Sight" for the _darkness_ combo your Levistus heritage provides at level 4. You'll want to take "Flames of Phlegethos" as your feat, instead of the ASI. For your Pact, any of the three work, though Pact of the Tome with _Shillelagh_ gets over your MADness; by the end of this set of levels, your attack jumps from +3 to +7.  

*Passive damage* - 19 - 22.5, on avg. 2x per short rest, 10-12.5 per hit thereafter while you still have hp. 

Level 6 - (Cleric 1 / Warlock 5) 
This is the level where everything starts to open up. You pick up Cloak of Flies for your invocation, which does 4 no-save poison damage to anything that starts its turn next to you. Your AoA now deals 15 points of damage, and you gain _spirit guardians_ from your background. These all last ten minutes - 60 rounds - after which point you *will* need a short rest. From here on out, your job is to never get out of combat - if possible, request your DM NOT drop back out of initiative "bullet time" - while you go charging through as many of your opponents as you can. Setting this up takes three rounds, but then lasts for long enough that you can potentially get multiple encounters out of it. 

*Passive damage* - 48.5 
Wrath of the storm - 2d8 - 9
_Armor of Agathys_ - 15
_Spirit Guardians_ - 4d8 - 18
_Flames of Phlegethos_ (assuming you attack with green flame blade) - 1d4 - 2.5
Cloak of flies - 4
Damage without them hitting you - 22 per turn. 

It's whatever you want really from there. If you stay on the Warlock path, level 7 gives you an extra d10 to a saving throw, 8 bumps your AoA damage up by 5. An ASI at level 9 to bump Charisma will increase your cloak of flies damage by 1, as well as your save DCs; Warcaster is another good pick to give you AoOs and keep Spirit Guardians up. Level 10 bumps your AoA damage by 5 again. Level 11 brings your total number of resistances up to two, which bumps to three at level 12 with fire shield. Fire shield adds another 9.8 damage on average, bringing you up to potentially 69.3 damage per turn, spread out in cold, poison, fire, radiant (or necrotic) and lightning damage - again, before you take an action or bonus action! 

The full breakdown, at level 12, is as follows:
Wrath of the storm - 2d8 - 9
_Armor of Agathy_s -  25
_Fire shield_ - 2d8 - 9, 9.8 with flames of Phlegethos 
_Spirit Guardians_ - 4d8 - 18
Flames of Phlegethos - 1d4 - 2.5 (assuming you attack with green flame blade; this is bonus damage on top of that)
Cloak of flies - 5
= *69.3 passive damage per round*. 

Picking up another level of Storm Cleric lets you do max lightning or thunder damage once per long rest, which can either boost your Wrath of the Storm, or make your _shatter_ and _thunderwave_ - and eventually _lightning lure_ and _booming blade_! -  outpace the average _fireball_. Also, because you have an extra 1st level cleric slot, you can still afford to cast Hex, and use abilities like Maddening Hex (Extra psychic bonus damage!) or Relentless Hex. You may also want to pick up Warcaster to keep your Spirit Guardians up and provoke cantrip AoOs, or Resilient to get a Wisdom save.

The build works fairly well in melee, but suffers against ranged spellcasters and archers; AoE spells especially will be hard for you. One way around this is to use Devil's Sight and your free casting of _darkness_ 1x day to give yourself full concealment while you engage. Relentless Hex is another option to teleport to your foe. Outside of melee, the build isn't bad - you have the best possible Intimidation ability in the game, a free skill due to the doubling up on Religion, and decent Perception. You have options in social and exploration, in other words. Story-wise, I imagine a tiefling Orzhov cleric who rebels and serves a tempest deity, and is thrown out of the guild. They pact with Rakdos for vengeance, and go from there.

Alternate versions of this build include VHuman, who takes Heavy Armor Master at level 1. You lose Flames of Phlegethos, which knocks out 5 damage per turn on avg (more if you are using green-flame blade as your primary attack spell), but you do take less damage per hit, which means your _Armor of Agathys_ stays up for longer. You could also use the Hexblade patron instead of the fiend, who is immediately SAD, and may be more survive-able at lower levels... but that reduces your passive damage output by 9.8 as a tiefling, and by ~15 as a VHuman. However, you also gain _shield_ which is a fantastic option for your cleric spell slots. There's also an option to build this as Paladin of Redemption 3 / Warlock X, but I don't really see a DM letting you get away with passive violence as "non-violence."

Also, because I know someone else will bring it up... Yes, you can also do this type of build as Warlock 2/Abjurer X. However, while very survive-able, that has 2 problems: 1. It does far less passive damage per turn, and 2. @LudicSavant already did a wonderful writeup of an Abjurer Iron Wizard. In this thread. On a side note, VHuman Hexblade Warlock 1 / Abjurer X is another way to make the Iron Wizard work, without playing a hobgoblin - take Lucky at level 1, and you're in business with Medium Armor, shields, and just about everything else. 

Thanks so much for reading - I hope you found this fun, and I'm open to any suggestions for improvement!

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## Corran

> There are other ways to get at a similar build - but I thought this was an interesting take on things for a Warlock. Happy to take suggestions!


Cool build. Only had a quick look and will read it more carefully later, but yeah, cool build.
One of the other ways to go about it (assuming the aim is retaliatory damage), could be hexblade1 or 2/phoenix sorc 18 or 19. Sorcerer will get us stoneskin (we can extend it if we like) and higher level slots with which to use armor of Agathys. Plus the phoenix (UA, unfortunately) features, although a bit lackluster, play well with our aim here. More slots to use hellish rebuke with, if we want to.

One suggestion would be to take absorb elements (didn't spot it after a quick read), cause it will spare you pain from attacks that will eat into your AoA hp without provoking retaliatory damage. Second suggestion, make room for both resilient con and warcaster, otherwise you will end up losing concentration pretty often (because remember, we are not strictly tanking with AC, but also with hp, so we can be expecting hits). Lastly, consider involving the blade ward cantrip.

Edit: Minion killer is another good name for such builds, cause it will be fights against looooots of minions (correction: a lot of *melee* minions) where they'll shine the most. And you can kill them (at least most of them) without spilling minion blood all over your good weapons!

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## LudicSavant

> Thanks so much for reading - I hope you found this fun, and I'm open to any suggestions for improvement!


Now this is interesting; I was just mulling over a Phlegethos Fiend build myself.   :Small Smile:   Fiend is an interesting venue for it since you get a floating Resistance (which combos oh-so-well with AoA), regenerating temporary hit points, and Fire Shield on your spell list (normally unique to the Wizard list).

The nice thing about Fire Shield / Phlegethos is that it doesn't pop with damage, so you can theoretically have an endless horde of weak mooks attempting to attack you, dying, and then replenishing your temporary hit points.  Forever.  Though you'd think the goblins would get the idea after the first couple of times.

It will be interesting to see how this compares to my work-in-progress.  One small note however is that the writeup here says that Wrath of the Storm recharges on a short rest.  It actually recharges on a long rest.

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## Story_Optimized

> Now this is interesting; I was just mulling over a Phlegethos Fiend build myself.    Fiend is an interesting venue for it since you get a floating Resistance (which combos oh-so-well with AoA), regenerating temporary hit points, and Fire Shield on your spell list (normally unique to the Wizard list).
> 
> The nice thing about Fire Shield / Phlegethos is that it doesn't pop with damage, so you can theoretically have an endless horde of weak mooks attempting to attack you, dying, and then replenishing your temporary hit points.  Forever.  Though you'd think the goblins would get the idea after the first couple of times.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how this compares to my work-in-progress.  One small note however is that the writeup here says that Wrath of the Storm recharges on a short rest.  It actually recharges on a long rest.


Thanks so much! Good catch on the short rest error - I was mixing it up with their Destructive Wrath Channel Divinity.

----------


## Story_Optimized

> Cool build. Only had a quick look and will read it more carefully later, but yeah, cool build.
> One of the other ways to go about it (assuming the aim is retaliatory damage), could be hexblade1 or 2/phoenix sorc 18 or 19. Sorcerer will get us stoneskin (we can extend it if we like) and higher level slots with which to use armor of Agathys. Plus the phoenix (UA, unfortunately) features, although a bit lackluster, play well with our aim here. More slots to use hellish rebuke with, if we want to.
> 
> One suggestion would be to take absorb elements (didn't spot it after a quick read), cause it will spare you pain from attacks that will eat into your AoA hp without provoking retaliatory damage. Second suggestion, make room for both resilient con and warcaster, otherwise you will end up losing concentration pretty often (because remember, we are not strictly tanking with AC, but also with hp, so we can be expecting hits). Lastly, consider involving the blade ward cantrip.
> 
> Edit: Minion killer is another good name for such builds, cause it will be fights against looooots of minions (correction: a lot of *melee* minions) where they'll shine the most. And you can kill them (at least most of them) without spilling minion blood all over your good weapons!


Thanks! Lol re the minion blood - somehow, I've never thought of the character as fastidious, but that would actually be a hoot to rp. Think "Monk," but with a Fiend pact. 

Phoenix Sorcerer looks interesting; the original idea for this came from the UA Undying Light Warlock, who got fire shield as well. Those two combo-ed would be pretty nasty, though I'm not sure I'd go full sorcerer on the build; I think you get the vast majority of the benefit with a 1 level dip for mantle of flame. 

Absorb elements is a great suggestion, but the build as written doesn't have access to it natively; you'd have to pick it up via Magic Initiate or something similar. Warcaster and Resilient are both great choices; maybe I'll extend the build out to Lvl 20 next week and show how a final version might look.

Thanks so much for the feedback!

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## Corran

> Thanks! Lol re the minion blood - somehow, I've never thought of the character as fastidious, but that would actually be a hoot to rp. Think "Monk," but with a Fiend pact.


https://youtu.be/eTRaBNafaU0?t=3171
(from Gamers 3)




> Phoenix Sorcerer looks interesting; the original idea for this came from the UA Undying Light Warlock, who got fire shield as well. Those two combo-ed would be pretty nasty, though I'm not sure I'd go full sorcerer on the build; I think you get the vast majority of the benefit with a 1 level dip for mantle of flame.


That's true. As far as I remember, I was mostly interested in the level 6 feature, the one that lets you ''explode'' when you are dropped. And the level 18 feature doubled its damage or sth. Retaliatory damage every round was just an afterthought, but with stoneskin and armor of agathys it kind of worked. Mind you, that build was very vulnerable against top tier foes (had a one shot at level 15) and I assume that it would take a while for it to kick off (if I were to advance it from the low levels), but eh, I kind of liked it. It's a shame though that we don't have a spell list that has all of armor of agathys, fire shield and stoneskin on it (and I admit that it is very likely that I overestimate how impactful stoneskin is for such builds). Perhaps warlock 1/ wizard 7 would be another way to go.




> Absorb elements is a great suggestion, but the build as written doesn't have access to it natively; you'd have to pick it up via Magic Initiate or something similar. Warcaster and Resilient are both great choices; maybe I'll extend the build out to Lvl 20 next week and show how a final version might look.


Ah, shame. I thought warlocks get that spell. It's a good spell for sure, but I would be very hesitant to pick up magic initiate just for it. Being a tiefling though does help at least against fire. And fire shield will cover cold, so that's something.[/QUOTE]

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## Atomicwraith

Love this thread!  Thanks for starting Ludic!  Here are some fun build I've toyed around with/played, that I don't see discussed too much:

Kinetic Blaster
1: Fighter 1  Close Quarters Shooter Fighting Style
2: Warlock 1  Hexblade, Hex Warrior, Hexblades Curse
3: Warlock 2  Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast
4: Warlock 3 - Chainlock
5: Warlock 4  Elven Accuracy
6: Warlock 5  Grasp of Hadar
7: Sorcerer 1  Sea Sorcerer, Curse of the Sea
8: Fighter 2  Action Surge

The Kinetic Blaster runs through battlefields and shapes them manually to his will, by knocking enemies around like pinballs, or yanking them into melee where they dont want to be.  

The core synergy is Repelling Blast(push 10, on each hit) or Grasp of Hadar (pull 10, 1/turn) with Sea Sorecerers Curse of the Sea (+15 forced move, 1/turn).  So between character level 5-9, that means Pull 25 or Push 35, assuming hits.  And these hits pack a punch, with advantage from your invisible Imp, trivantage from Elven Accuracy, 2 beams at these levels, Agonizing Blast (+cha to damage), and Hexblades Curse (crit on 19-20).  So that is 2(1d10+4), or 19 damage assuming hits but no crtits.  Or double that when Action Surge takes it up a notch.  Close Quarters Shooter lets you get close to a dude before you blast him away, and ignore close-range cover.

Half-Elven Drow works nicely for this build, with point buy starting at 8/14/16/12/8/17, and then EA taking Charisma up to 18 by level 5.

The build has good utility with 8 cantrips (I suggest Dancing Lights (drow), Eldritch Blast (warlock), Minor Illusion (warlock), Mending (warlock 5), Shape Water (sorc), Mold Earth (sorc), Gust (sorc), Firebolt (sorc)).  Hilights of level 1 spells are Shield, Hex, Absorb Elements, and Faerie Fire, Second level: Invisibility, Mirror Image, and Darkness, Third Level: Hypnotic Pattern and Counterspell.  Plus an invisible Imp familiar for all kinds of scouting shenanigans.


Celestial Support Specialist
A backliner support variant of this build is to replace Fighter with Artificer, and Hexblade with Celestial Warlock, Half-Elf for vHuman, and 2 of your invocations for Misty Visions and Voice of the Chain Master.  This variant sacrifices DPS, but lets a character pick up Inspiring Leader for pre-combat buffs, and near constant surprise via the following combo:  dimension shunt an invisible familiar into the next room, see the bad guys laying in wait, observe what the wall where the party will enter looks like, cause a ruckus on the far side of the room, cast Misty Visions to look like the same room wall but displaced 5 feet, party opens door silently and takes position, surprise round.

Flying Tank
1: Barbarian 1 - Rage
2: Artificer 1  Arcane Weapon, Utility spells
3: Barb 2  Danger Sense
4: Barb 3  Ancestral Guardians
5: Barb 4  Dragon Wings
6: Barb 5  Second Attack
7: Artificer 2  Returning Weapon, Goggles of Night
8: Artificer 3 -Battlesmith  Iron Defender

This build is about taking the heat and debuffing the BBEG.  The main thrust is to have your Iron Defender debuff the second toughest enemy with Defensive Pounce, while your Ancestral Gurardians focus attack on you.  Ideally the BBEG is melee-based, as youll be flying with your UA Dragon Wings (Mobile feat if your DM disallows concentrationless flying by level 5).  You kite, you breathe fire (did I mention you are a dragonborn?; a red dragonborns fire cone is applied from 15 feet up affects a 20x20 space!), you thow a rage-powered javelin which returns again and again.  

When rage is down, you are less tanky but for DPS-y, as Arcane Weapon augments your attacks now.  Point buy would be 16/14/14/13/8/10 as a Red Dragonborn, so now you are resisting fire as well as physical attacks when you rage.  The big potential downside is if you are knocked prone while flying, which will put you on the ground, unless you prepared Feather Fall which you did.

Outside of combat, you have an Artificers great list of utility spells, Guidance and Dancing Lights ready to go, and expertise in Thieves Tools.  Plus on-demand flight for scouting and utility.


Yeti, PhD
1: Fighter 1
2: Fighter 2: Action Surge
3: Fighter 3: Scout: Natural Explorer (adv on initiative, adv vs targets who have not acted yet on first round), 4d8 Superiority dice (Precision Attack, Scouts Evasion)
4: Fighter 4: PAM
5: Fighter 5: Second Attack
6: Artificer 1 Guidance, Arcane Weapon
7: Fighter 6: GWM
8: Artificer 2: Enhanced Weapon, Bag of Holding, Alchemy Jug

This build is about doing big DPS while not on the frontline.  A glaive plus a Bigbears reach means a range of 15, so ideally this big fast guy hides behind the tank and wrecks opponents with dual attacks of 1d10+3+1d6+10) and a chaser of 1d4+3+1d6+10, or a total of 63 damage if all hit.  Best when paired with a strong melee frontline, but also good as a hard-hitting scout force.


Jedi Tank
0: vHuman - PAM
1: Fighter 1 - Dueling
2: Warlock 1  Great Old One, Hex
3: Warlock 2  Misty Visions, Mask of Many Faces
4: Warlock 3  Mirror Image, Tomelock (Find Familiar)
5: Cleric 1  Tempest Cleric  Warth of the Storm, 2 more spell slots
6: Fighter 2  Action Surge
7: Fighter 3  Battle Master, Trip Attack, Goading Attack, Precision Attack
8: Fighter 4  Sentinel

This build is a tough frontliner with plenty of utility out of combat.  In combat, you are a Mirror-Imaged medium-armor wearing shield and quarterstaff build, casting Shillelagh (from Tomelock) and then Hex to fully spin up to speed in combat.  You are locking down the chessboard with PAM and Sentinel (and Lucky in 2 more levels).  Once Shillelagh and Hex are up, damage is 3(4.5+3.5+2+4) = 42/round, assuming all strikes hit.

Out of combat, you are an enchanter in the vein of a Jedi Consular:  with at-will telepathy and spells like Invisibility, Detect Thoughts, Unseen Servant, Mage Hand, Guidance, Minor Illusion, Phantasmal Force, Dissonant Whispers, Misty Step, and Command, plus a familiar, you are quite un-Fighter-y before combat begins.  The Cleric level gives double the spells available and a good range of utility.. all warlocks should do this!

Action economy is great with this build:  damaging reactions with Wrath of the Storm, bonus actions either to spin up the combat buffs or deal extra enhanced quarterstaff damage with PAM, plus a familiar to grant advantage.

I hope you all can enjoy these, or improve them!

----------


## Klorox

> Love this thread!  Thanks for starting Ludic!  Here are some fun build I've toyed around with/played, that I don't see discussed too much:
> 
> Kinetic Blaster
> 1: Fighter 1  Close Quarters Fighting Style
> 2: Warlock 1  Hexblade, Hex Warrior, Hexblades Curse
> 3: Warlock 2  Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast
> 4: Warlock 3 - Chainlock
> 5: Warlock 4  Elven Accuracy
> 6: Warlock 5  Grasp of Hadar
> ...


These seem like a lot of fun! 

Whats  close quarters fighting?

----------


## Atomicwraith

Ah, my typo:  I meant to say Close Quarters Shooter Fighting Style; its a UA style that Fighters can pick up. This is fixed now.

----------


## Klorox

Oh man, I was looking forward to interacting with some deleted comments. 😕

----------


## LudicSavant

> Oh man, I was looking forward to interacting with some deleted comments. 😕


You just gotta ignore that guy.  He's been posting the same thread since 2015.  So... yeah.

----------


## FēlīxPersōnārum

This is a great resource, thank you!

----------


## Klorox

> You just gotta ignore that guy.  He's been posting the same thread since 2015.  So... yeah.


Under different names and everything. I didnt realize what we were dealing with. LOL.

----------


## Sparky McDibben

Hey Ludic, any chance of seeing that Nuclear Wizard build you mentioned?

----------


## Mercurias

I love this thread, and I tend to be a little short on original ideas when it comes to game mechanics. This is why, when I post an 'original' build, it ends up being two of Ludic's builds crammed together in a blender.

*Nature is Magical*
_Arcana Cleric 6 / Land (Coast) Druid 14_

*Race:* V. Human (Feat: Warcaster)
*Stats:* 14 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Wis, Everything else to taste (I went 10 Str, 14 Dex, 15 Con, 10 Int, 16 Wis, 8 Cha).

*Cantrips:* Booming Blade, Create Bonfire, Fire Bolt, Guidance, Light, Shape Water, Shillelagh, Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Word of Radiance

*ASI's:* Max Wis, Warcaster (Racial Feat), Resilient (Con), Ritual Caster (Wizard)

Okay so where do we start here?

This is a build that essentially gives you as many day-to-day options as I can imagine for a caster. 

In melee, you have access to Spirit Guardians, SCAG cantrips, and Shillelagh along with medium armor (which may need to be made from non-metallic substances, such as actual scales, caparace, chitin, or bone) and shield proficiency. You also have Spiritual Weapon and Bonus Action spells like Sanctuary and Healing Word in a pinch, so action economy is good out of the gate. For your OA, youve got Booming Blade to punish anyone leaving melee range with you, thanks to Warcaster.

You also have the Mirror Image spell. Mixing Mirror Image, Spirit Guardians, and Dodge Actions looks like a lot of fun.

As a healer, you have the Arcana Cleric's level 6 feature, Spell Breaker, which stops negative magical effects dead so long as you using a spell slot of the right level to heal the afflicted target. With spells like Regenerate, Mass Healing Word, and Healing Spirits, you'll be able to make use of it more than most, and having access to Healing Spirits on top of Cleric spells makes you unusually capable if the party needs someone to act as a main healer for a battle. Also worth noting, you can use Revivify. A Druid wouldn't be able to revive until 5th level spells, and then you roll the dice on your friend's race because the spell is Reincarnate. 

If the party needs control spells, you have an enormous suite of Druid control spells, plus Spirit Guardians. There are honestly so many options that I'm going to end this here or else I'll hit the limit for post size.

If you need to move stealthily or spy, you have access to Wild Shape as well as Polymorph for shapeshifting into an innocuous mouse, rat, bird, etc. You can also use Rory's Telepathic Bond to communicate with your party even when Wild Shaped, which is nice. In fact, Rory's Telepathic Bond would be a great thing to have on any scout for instant communication, and you can cast it as a ritual.

You've also got Wizard Ritual Magic, for all of your Tiny Hutting, Magic Detecting, Familiar Finding, and Phantom Steeding needs.

Minions? You have Awaken to give yourself an intelligent animal best friend, you have a Familiar, you can raise the dead, and you can summon loads of critters via Druid spells. 

And you can swap out your entire spell list on a long rest, except for your overly large pile of Cantrips, which include solid melee, ranged, and spell save options as well as some nice utility, so you're probably fine with them as they are.

Frankly, I can't find a wrong way to level this one up. No matter what class you pick, you seem to get something good at every level just because there's so much going on. I would personally get a level of Druid, then four in Cleric, then four in Druid, the last Cleric level, and then Druid all the way. Your mileage, and opinion, may of course certainly vary.

It's definitely a magical-skill-monkey sort of build rather than a full-damage type. The roleplay would be interesting, though. Maybe it could be the daughter of a famous Wizarding family who found herself drawn to Druiding Circles?

Notes:
-If you roll for stats and luck out enough for an extra feat, Lucky and Alert could be nice choices.
-I chose Fire Bolt and Booming Blade for the Arcana Cleric cantrips for the sake of versatility, but Green Flame Blade And Minor Illusion are also good choices.
-Druidcraft is a criminally under-loved cantrip. Its a good alternative if you really want a different Druid cantrip.
-Good gods I can think of for this build would be Mystra or Selûne, but others could have better.

----------


## Evaar

> *Nature is Magical*
> _Arcana Cleric 6 / Land (Coast) Druid 14_
> 
> *Race:* V. Human (Feat: Warcaster)
> *Stats:* 14 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Wis, Everything else to taste (I went 10 Str, 14 Dex, 15 Con, 10 Int, 16 Wis, 8.


If this build could be made to work with a Wood Elf, Deep Sashelas would be a perfect god for it. Elven deity of oceans, wisdom, and magic. I dont know how well that works, you might not be able to keep one of those feats.

You could always be a human child of a human and half elf and connect it that way. Even if you didnt get the blood, you have the history.

----------


## LudicSavant

> Hey Ludic, any chance of seeing that Nuclear Wizard build you mentioned?


Sure, I'll do that one next.

----------


## Sparky McDibben

Thanks, Ludic!

----------


## Foff

> These are really nice and entertaining to read, thank you!
> 
> Care to help me with a build?
> I'm thinking about a tank with the options for good damage and decent control. I'm about to start a new campaign/long adventure and while teorically the other three charactes are going to be a Cleric tank, a Rogue glass cannon (not sure) and a Wizard controller, they are all somewhat newbie-ish. So I'd like something to plug possibile holes.


Sorcadin, any combination of subclasses/oaths will work wonders and adapt to your background story...
Pal 2 Sorc X for more damage and controlling options
Pal 6 Sorc X for better tanking and survivability

----------


## Mercurias

> Sorcadin, any combination of subclasses/oaths will work wonders and adapt to your background story...
> Pal 2 Sorc X for more damage and controlling options
> Pal 6 Sorc X for better tanking and survivability


As an alternative, you might like the Celestial Tomelock in the first post of this thread. It has solid defense while letting the Cleric shine as the tank, enough party face skills to handle sweet talking, plenty of control/support, solid damage, a bonus action heal to help the Cleric out, bonus temp HP for everyone on a short/long rest, and can even get Thieves tools to help out the Rogue with the right background.

----------


## 1Pirate

Wow! Some really cool builds!

I was looking at the paladin build since it's mostly core and I'm thinking of making one for AL. I was wondering what stats it uses though, because I couldn't figure out how it gets to 20 Cha. I get dropping strength in favor of a magic item, but it still takes 2 ASIs for a VHuman to get 20 Cha using point buy(and even rolling it still takes at least one) and it's got 4 feats listed in the build.

----------


## Mercurias

You could dip a level of Hexblade Warlock and use the level 1 feature to make Charisma your stat for attacking and damage with weapons.

----------


## Lyracian

> but it still takes 2 ASIs for a VHuman to get 20 Cha using point buy(and even rolling it still takes at least one) and it's got 4 feats listed in the build.


4 Feats and 2 stat boosts is exactly what the Human gets by Level 19.

L01: Human - PAM
L04: +Chr
L08: Great Weapon Master
L12: +Chr
L16: Mounted Combatant
L19: Inspiring Leader

Starts with Str and Chr at 16 and not much else or have an even lower strength and rely on magic items to boost.

----------


## 1Pirate

Ah, got it. I miscounted the ASIs. Still curious what the starting array would be(no dip).

----------


## LudicSavant

> Still curious what the starting array would be(no dip).


Str 16 / Cha 16 / Con 14 / other stats to taste.  Unless you were expecting Str to be replaced sooner rather than later.

----------


## 1Pirate

> Str 16 / Cha 16 / Con 14 / other stats to taste.  Unless you were expecting Str to be replaced sooner rather than later.


Thanks for that!

----------


## Klorox

> I love this thread, and I tend to be a little short on original ideas when it comes to game mechanics. This is why, when I post an 'original' build, it ends up being two of Ludic's builds crammed together in a blender.
> 
> *Nature is Magical*
> _Arcana Cleric 6 / Land (Coast) Druid 14_
> 
> *Race:* V. Human (Feat: Warcaster)
> *Stats:* 14 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Wis, Everything else to taste (I went 10 Str, 14 Dex, 15 Con, 10 Int, 16 Wis, 8 Cha).
> 
> *Cantrips:* Booming Blade, Create Bonfire, Fire Bolt, Guidance, Light, Shape Water, Shillelagh, Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Word of Radiance
> ...


I love this idea!

How would you break down the levels?

----------


## Mercurias

> I love this idea!
> 
> How would you break down the levels?


I would probably do it thusly:
1: Druid
2-5: Arcana Cleric (+2 Wis at level 5)
6-8: Druid, choosing Circle of the Land (Coast) at level 6 and +2 Wis at level 8.
9-10: Cleric, which finishes its levels up and unlocks Spirit Guardians/Spellbreaker.
12+: All Druid, with Ritual Caster (Wizard) and Resilient (Con) Chosen to taste at 15 and 19. Both are desirable. I would personally get Ritual Caster first and rely on Warcaster for help with Con saves for concentration, but your mileage may vary.

Early on, the build is primarily a support/control caster in Medium Armor, with spells like Faerie Fire, Entangle, Command, Spiritual Weapon, and Goodberry that help maximize the return on your spell slots. 

Cantrip damage is solid at all ranges, with Booming Blade being an excellent OA (so long as Shillelaghs effect is up) and melee damage option, Fire Bolt standing as a nice long-ranged attack cantrip, Bonfire acting as a resourceless concentration spell, Toll the Dead working as a nice Wis D/C cantrip, and Thorn Whip serving to drag enemies into hazards like Entangle (or your Barbarian friend with the Greataxe whose turn is just after yours).

Approaching mid-level, you unlock Wildshape for stealth and recon. Heck, turn into a little purse-dog to help your Bard disguise herself as a society girl, too. I dont judge. Youll also begin get more use out of your Druid side in general, including access to Misty Step and Mirror Image from your Circle. Youll also start being able to recover spell slots on a short rest here. You wont recover as much as a single-class Land Druid, but every bit helps.

Levels 9 and 10 are very nice. You finally get Spirit Guardians and Revivify. You also become a clutch battle dispeller, which is both sort of a niche feature and also a very powerful one when you end up needing it.

11+ brings further improvement to Wildshape, additional short rest Spell Slot recovery, Resilient (Con), Ritual Caster (Wizard), higher cantrip damage, and an ever-expanding spell list. While your spell options stop for Druid at 7th level, you have so very, very many things to upcast that using those 8th and 9th level spell slots wont feel like a waste so much as ridiculously overcharging one spell. Who doesnt want to at least TRY casting Spirit Guardians with a 9th level slot?

If youd prefer an Elf or Half-Elf, I would probably leave out Resilient (Con) in favor of Warcaster.

----------


## Atomicwraith

The Advokist Tomb Raider

<EDIT: I misread the way GGtR guild spells are utilized; this post is now edited to reflect the correct interpretation.  It's still cool, but takes a few more levels to get there.>

The gist of this build is to be an int-based tank who uses Spiritual Guardians, dual attacks and great defenses to survive in the middle of melee.  Tons of utility and flavor as a technology-facilitated chaneller of ghost powers.  You get to be smart and perceptive, but in power armor.  

Choose Veldeken as a race, Orzhov as background, and point-buy these stats:  8/12/14/16/16/8.  Take 3 levels of Artificer (Battle Smith), then a level of Forge Cleric, then 2 in Wizard (War), then 6 more in Artificer.  So by character level 12 you are a level 9 caster with 4/3/3/1 spell slots, 11 cantrips, access to scads of first level spells, and Artificer/Orzhov list of useful level 2 and 3 spells including Spirit Guardians, and 2 pets (Iron Defender and Familiar).  You are:

Well-nigh Invulnerable
	AC 22 (plate + shield, +1 from Blessing of the Forge, +1 from Enchanted Armor)
	Arcane deflection (mini-shield on demand, +2 AC,+4 to saves, and the downside of casting only cantrips next round does not bother you, as youre mostly melee in combat anyways)
	Veldeken Disposition (advantage on int/wis/cha saves)
	Warcaster (advantage on concentration saves)
	4 spell slots mostly dedicated to Shield and Absorb Elements

Melee Buzzsaw of Death
	Spirit Guardians up with Warcaster (3d8 or 4d8, wis save, 15, speed halved)
	Longsword +1 (Enhanced Weapon): +7 to hit, 2x(1d10+4) -- uses Int as the modifier
	+5-8 Initiative (1 from dex, 3 from War Wizard) +1d4 from Guidance
	Iron Defender (Defensive Pounce gives disadvantage to an enemy for a reaction, Bite on bonus action)
	Advantage on 1 attack/round from Familiar (owl)
	Toll the Dead and Hand of Radiance if needed
	Bestow Curse and Branding Smite for special situations
	Warcaster + Booming Blade for anyone who runs

Tomb Raider
	Thieves Tools +9-12 (Veldeken Tireless Precision, Artificer Tools Expertise, Guidance)
	Investigation +8-11 (Veldeken Tireless Precision, Guidance)
	Perception +7
	Familiar scouting
	Dancing Lights, Mage Hand, Guiding Hand for exploration

Ghost Powers
With the Orzhov background, this build is working for the undead, and thus derives a lot of ghost-themed utility powers, including:

	Identify, Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, Silent Image, Disguise Self, Speak with Dead, Zone of Truth, Aid, Rope Trick, Mending, Revivify, various minor heals (Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Iron Defenders Repair)

Theme
I love the idea of a smart, perceptive guy who nonetheless is suited up in heavy tech armor, and derives powers either from tech, or from ghostly portals that can be summoned.  Want to bring your familiar into the world?  A ghostly white portal opens in space and your owl spirit flies out.  Want to use Bestow Curse?  Your reach out, a white portal appears just above your wrist, and a spectral ghost arm reaches out to touch the enemy and deliver the curse.  Rope trick, Zone of Truth  its all facilitated by your tech-mediated access to a spirit world beyond.

----------


## 8wGremlin

I think you are mistaken.

You can't cast Spiritual Guardians none of you casting classes are capable of casting 3rd level spells. 
yes you have the slots, but you don't get the guild spells until you learn that level of spell. 
You have a lot of 1st level spells that can be upcast to 3rd level.

----------


## Atomicwraith

Ah, but I think this build CAN cast a 3rd level spell, despite that each of the 3 caster classes (artificer, wizard, cleric) can only cast 1st level spells.  

When multiclassed, we use the multiclassing spell table, right?  Which for a level 1 cleric (1 caster level)/ level 2 wizard (2 caster levels)/ level 5 artificer (3 caster levels, as uniquely they round up) equals 6 caster levels, or 4/3/3 slots.  The Orzhov spells are simply added to caster spellbooks (/etc)--presumably when the relevant caster level has been attained, though RAW they just seem to appear at character creation, waiting to be unlocked by casting ability-- so the race is actually to unlock a combined caster level by any method, not to get a full caster to level 5.

The quote from GGtR is "For you, the relevant spells on the Orzhov Guild Spells table are added to the spell list of your spellcasting class"  Nothing about needing to be able to cast a level 3 spell in those classes.  The spell list of a 4/3/3 caster who only knows first level spells is pretty self-defeating... until these guild spells come along to save the day.

What this build is saying is that it values caster "goodies" (Arcane Deflection, Blessing of the Forge, Iron Defender) more than caster spells, which I admit is unusual, but the point is to survive in the middle of the maelstrom as a gish, not to sling top level spells.

(that said, what to do after level 8?  Probably advance in wizard...)

----------


## Cyclone_Knight

> Ah, but I think this build CAN cast a 3rd level spell, despite that each of the 3 caster classes (artificer, wizard, cleric) can only cast 1st level spells.  
> 
> When multiclassed, we use the multiclassing spell table, right?  Which for a level 1 cleric (1 caster level)/ level 2 wizard (2 caster levels)/ level 5 artificer (3 caster levels, as uniquely they round up) equals 6 caster levels, or 4/3/3 slots.  The Orzhov spells are simply added to caster spellbooks (/etc)--presumably when the relevant caster level has been attained, though RAW they just seem to appear at character creation, waiting to be unlocked by casting ability-- so the race is actually to unlock a combined caster level by any method, not to get a full caster to level 5.
> 
> The quote from GGtR is "For you, the relevant spells on the Orzhov Guild Spells table are added to the spell list of your spellcasting class"  Nothing about needing to be able to cast a level 3 spell in those classes.  The spell list of a 4/3/3 caster who only knows first level spells is pretty self-defeating... until these guild spells come along to save the day.
> 
> What this build is saying is that it values caster "goodies" (Arcane Deflection, Blessing of the Forge, Iron Defender) more than caster spells, which I admit is unusual, but the point is to survive in the middle of the maelstrom as a gish, not to sling top level spells.
> 
> (that said, what to do after level 8?  Probably advance in wizard...)


Incorrect.  You use the multiclassing spell table for determining what spell _slots_ you have access to, but you only count the levels in the specific classes for determining what spells you actually know or can prepare, including -- per the example given in the PHB -- what level those spells are allowed to be.  Heavily multiclassed characters often wind up with spell slots of higher level than they actually can know or prepare spells for; they can only use it for upcasting (or smiting, if they're a paladin).

The added spells from the GGtR are added to the spell _lists_ of the class, _not_ your _known_ spells for the class.




> *Spells Known and Prepared.*  You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, *as if you were a single-classed member of that class.*  If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class.  As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two fo which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells.

----------


## Evaar

Same reason a Wizard 1/Cleric 19 doesnt get to cast Wish.

----------


## Atomicwraith

You know, Cyclone_Knight and 8wGremlin you are totally correct.  I dont know how I misread that; the GGtR text around the guild spells is slightly more vague than the PHB but somehow I was thinking these spells were added to *my* list, not merely the class list.  Dang.  So this build has to go to level 12 to get the benefits I describe, not 8.  Meh.  Well Ive got a caster-only version variant that I shall share one of these days.

Thanks for the correction; Ill edit my earlier post.

----------


## LudicSavant

> Next build will probably be one of the following:
> 
> *snip*
> 
> - the Cha/Int blaster Wizard build I'm currently playing in a long-term campaign (running from tier 1-4).  Basically my take on the so-called "Nuclear Wizard" build which can potentially out-blast Sorlocks, come online faster, and retain all the versatility of being a Wizard.  And doesn't require Coffeelocking or anything of that sort.  The one I'm playing right now is an Asmodeus Tiefling, but the optimized version would probably be something else, like Yuan-Ti (for whom the Cha/Int typing is actually what you want for a change).





> I'd love to see your take on the Nuclear Wizard





> Hey Ludic, any chance of seeing that Nuclear Wizard build you mentioned?





> Blaster Caster sounds interesting as does Samurai.  Would be good if you added a variant/notes for those of us who only play PHB races.


Alright, let's build a Nuclear Wizard!

At Lyracian's request, I'll be providing multiple versions using different races.

Anyways, this is a strong one, so be aware of what level of optimization your group's comfortable with.  You can afford to tone it down a bit and still have a _highly_ competent character.

*What's a Nuclear Wizard?*
To my knowledge the term nuclear wizard was coined here as a name for builds that take advantage of the synergy between Empowered Evocation and Hexblades Curse, which (among other things) transforms the humble Magic Missile into one of the best-scaling single target damage options in the game. 

As good as a NW's Magic Missile is, a well-played high level Evoker doesnt really just spend their entire turn casting one spell and doing _nothing else_ (which is basically what happens in the Reddit post, but not what we're going to do here).  Like any high level Wizard, their strength is their versatility and action economy.  And Evokers have a great kit already.

*Build 9:  The Nuclear Wizard*

_I cast Magic Missile_

*Hexblade 1 / Evoker 17 / Fighter 2*
Race:  Yuan-Ti (alternatively, anything listed in the "Nuclear Races" section below)
Stats (Point Buy): 16 Int / 14 Con / 14 Dex / 14 Cha
ASIs:  Max Int, Resilient (Con), Alert
Fighting Style:  Defense
Sample Cantrips:  Create Bonfire, Toll the Dead, Fire Bolt, Minor Illusion, Control Flames, Lightning Lure, Frostbite

Optional stuff:  
If you want a GGtR background:  Orzhov (replace a cantrip with Guidance and take Spirit Guardians)
Not-too-rare gear to keep an eye out for:  A mere Uncommon, attunement-free Wand of Magic Missile becomes pretty ridiculous in a Hexblade/Evoker's hands.  If they're available, you basically want as many as you can get.  Anything that will increase your AC/saves is great, too.

*The End of the Path of Explosions:  Silly Max Level Nova Shenanigans*
This is a demonstration of why it's called the Nuclear Wizard.   You can just sort of keep stacking damage about as high as you want, as long as you're willing to grind up all your resources and unleash it in one catastrophic explosion.  Time to make Megumin proud.

*Spoiler: Explooooooosion!*
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The first thing you've got is Magic Missile, which deals 1d4+1+5(Empowered Evocation)+6(Hexblade's Curse) guaranteed damage per bolt.  So for example in a 9th level slot it'd do 11d4+132 (159.5) unmissable damage, piercing Legendary Resistance, Magic Resistance, AC, saves, pretty much any conventional defenses.  Even Shield can just get Counterspelled.  Or just overwhelmed with the sheer amount of effects you put out, because you see...

We're not done.  We can Action Surge and use another one with an L8 slot, for 145 guaranteed damage (now up to 304.5).  And then your Simulacrum can do it, getting you to *609 unmissable damage.  That's already enough to one-shot an Ancient Red Dragon through all their defenses, and we can easily push our damage even further.*  Everything beyond this point is frankly overkill.  So let's talk about overkill.

Both you and your Simulacrum can be concentrating on an Overchanneled DoT (like upcast Spirit Guardians from Orzhov).  If Hexblade's Curse was used on a previous turn, you still have your bonus action, which can be, say, a charge of Crown of Stars firing off for 4d12+11.   And then all of your minions act... your familiar, simulacrum's familiar, Wished-up Greater Steed, animated dead, whatever.  If you had a chance to cast a pair of Otiluke's Freezing Spheres (1 from you, 1 from your simulacrum) before the fight, they can throw them for another 16d6+22 AoE/save for half damage _each_.  And both you and your Simulacrum can pop Contingency for 2 more 5th level spells for your choice.  

And you can still have any of your non-concentration buffs up, like See Invisibility, Armor of Agathys, Fire Shield, or whatever.  So on the slim chance that anyone survives and dares to hit you, they'd take all that and a Hellish Rebuke for their trouble.

You can similarly set yourself up for AoE annihilation instead of single target, switching out the 4 Magic Missiles for 2 Meteor Swarms and 2 upcast AoEs of choice (while things like Spirit Guardians and Freezing Sphere are already AoE).  Or abuse Prismatic Wall.

If you want _even more_ single target damage, you can use Wish for Hallow:Vulnerability to Force with your Action, then Action Surge for a Magic Missile, and then have your Simulacrum throw two Magic Missiles, for a total of ((145+145+159.5)*2) or *899* average damage if they fail their save against Hallow.  And then another 128 if you both can hit with an Overchanneled Bigby's Hand (which are also Force damage, so you'd get 4*8*2*2).  And then potentially add Freezing Spheres and Crown of Stars and so forth.

Basically, as long as you're willing to invest the resources and a little set up, you can do a nearly arbitrary amount of damage, *pushing well into 4 digits*.  And it doesn't even take setup for the "one-shot an Ancient Red Dragon" part.  In order to have a _chance_ to survive, your foe needs to have very specific counters (like Subtle Shield, pre-cast Globe of Invulnerability, or Contingency:GTFO), the ability to cheat death (like Clone), or go first in the game of rocket launcher tag and hope that when the dust clears, you can't reply.

Mind, this is the extreme case, rapidly burning through your level 20 resources.  However, even if you use a much more resource efficient combo you're still doing some real damage.  For example, just a 5th level HC/EE Magic Missile alone is 101.5 guaranteed damage, and is only a fraction of your available action economy.  You've got more than enough resources to do a wide variety of powerful combos throughout the day.  

Note that all those crazy action economy shenanigans?  Sorcerers don't get any of those spells on their list.  Freezing Sphere, Contingency, Simulacrum, Wall of Force, you name it.  All the big action economy spells are on the Wizard list.  They need to use Wish to get even limited access to any of this, and a Sorcerer's Wished-up Simulacrum can't cast 9th level spells.  A Wizard has no such limitations.


Okay, so you get to annihilate the final encounter of the whole campaign with a Macross Missile Massacre.  But every optimizer worth their salt already knows that high level Wizards are bananas.  What about the rest of the game?

Well, turns out they actually scale quite smoothly throughout the game (albeit being rather more... sane prior to grabbing their highest level tools).  Your role will be a versatile mix of control, utility, and blasting (both single target and AoE).

*Progression*
*At level 1*, you start as a Hexblade, and basically get to play gish for all of one level.  You pick 2 cantrips that don't depend much on your Cha, and learn 2 spells which you'll have prepared forever.  They will be Armor of Agathys and either Shield or Hellish Rebuke.  I usually pick Shield.

(If you're wondering why you might consider Shield even though it's not a Warlock exclusive spell, it's because whatever you pick for your 2 Warlock spells will be prepared forever.  Picking Shield is basically saying "I don't care much about the Warlock's spell list, and just want more space to prepare Wizard spells")

That Hexblade level's going to do a lot for you.  Namely, it will make your AC comparable to a Dex Eldritch Knight, give you a regenerating spell slot for things like Shield/Absorb Elements, and give you Hexblade's Curse (allowing you to deal some serious damage 1/short rest, especially with multi-hitting spells).  Armor of Agathys and Hellish Rebuke both upcast well.

Many people reflexively think of Cha-based multiclasses when it comes to dipping Hexblade, but really, you only need 13 Cha to reap the benefits.  None of the stuff we're getting here cares about your Charisma (except optionally Hellish Rebuke).

*At level 2*, you start to play more like you will for the rest of the game.  Youre now a Wizard 1 / Hexblade 1.  Compared to a regular Wizard, youll have 5 cantrips (instead of 3), 6 spells prepared (instead of 5), 6 spells per DMG standard adventuring day (instead of 4), and medium armor + shield + Shield for up to 19/24 AC (whenever you get your half-plate).  And youll have Hexblades Curse 1/short rest (a mean boss-killer).  And Poison Immunity / Magic Resistance from being a Yuan-Ti.

In other words, youre considerably safer and have a good bit more resources to spread out over a day than a typical Wizard.  Twice as many spells over a standard adventuring day if you assume theyre spending a slot on Mage Armor.  More if you consider theyll need to use Shield more often than you since they can be hit more often.

So, obviously you can do the basic God Wizard things like Fog Cloud or Silent Image or whatever, and theyre as good as ever.  But you also can dish out some real damage, either with or without spell slots.

You should summon a familiar (owl is always a good choice for Flyby and a _considerable_ 18 passive perception / 120 foot Darkvision) and keep some materials available to resummon them if necessary.  You should also keep some rituals going whenever you can.  It's not difficult to keep up an Unseen Servant or Floating Disk all day (since you can cast rituals while moving, and they last an hour).  Use the Unseen Servant to carry a Control Flames bullseye lantern, vials of oil, ball bearings, healing potions, or the like.  

Your bread and butter spell slotless combo is going to be setting down a Bonfire and using Toll the Dead (or some other good cantrip) + using your Familiar to give someone Advantage or use an object + having your Unseen Servant use oil or ball bearings or shine a Control Flames bullseye lantern or something.  Used right this can really rack up, especially with a little help from teammates to help move people around (think a grappler, repelling blaster, thorn whipper, or slightly later a Pushing Attack Battle Master or Open Hand Monk or any of a ton of other things.  And you can move enemies yourself with Lightning Lure or Thunderwave).  Dont forget that Create Bonfire can hit multiple squares, so at worst its just like a way better version of Acid Splash if youre not using your Concentration for something else.

Your go-to slotted AoE will be Thunderwave, which you can use to knock people into hazards (like your own bonfire) on top of just doing some decent AoE damage.  Your good AC (not to mention access to Armor of Agathys and Hellish Rebuke) means you can afford to position more aggressively for this than a typical Wizard.

And when you really want to kill someone, you throw down Hexblades Curse and use Magic Missile for 3d4+9 (16.5) guaranteed damage.  Plus having your Concentration effect running, and your Unseen Servant, and your Familiar.

How does that cursed Magic Missile stack up to the DPR of other low level characters?  Well, its about the same average damage as a GWM/GWF greatsword Fighter using Action Surge against an AC 14 target.  And thats if youre using Magic Missile _and nothing else_ on your turn.  But of course, there is more that can happen during a round.  For example...

Your familiar giving Advantage to one attack of that same GWM Fighter (against that same AC14 target) contributes about 6 DPR.  A burning oil square will do another 5 guaranteed every time someone enters or ends their turn there (which of course your allies can force).  A Bonfire square will add 1d8+2 per proc (with a Dex save to negate).  A decent grappler can easily make both of these proc twice per turn.  Or you could have Armor of Agathys up and have someone take 5 damage for hitting that.  And then Hellish Rebuke them for 2d10+2/save for half (average 10.3 DPR against a +0 Dex save).  And all of these possibilities are being added on top of what was _already_ comparable to a GWM/GWF greatsword Action Surge.

Not too shabby for a level 2 Wizard, eh?  Incidentally, that combo will never stop being relevant (because Magic Missile is well worth upcasting on this build, and all of your cantrips will scale and improve with Evoker features).

*Continuing your progression*, the level 2 combo will never stop being relevant.  Hexblade's Curse will scale with your proficiency, keeping the damage of everything up when you want to go nova on someone.  Your cantrips will double in damage at 5, become Potent at 7 (don't underestimate the difference between save negates and save for half on your DPR.  For example, against a foe with a +3 Wis save at level 7, Potent Toll the Dead will deal ~39% more DPR), and will scale in damage again at 11 (another die and Empowered Evocation).  This, plus your Bonfire action economy and ever-expanding list of rituals, helps ensure that your resourceless output is always at least respectable.

*Now, I'm not going to go over every single Wizard spell that you should use here (this is already a long enough post).  I'm going to be focusing mostly on talking about Evocation spells, since that's what's changed the most from standard Wizard strategies.*

*For level 2 slots*, your level 1 spells actually upcast pretty well.  L2 Thunderwave matches the damage of Shatter (if not the range and area) while still knocking people back, and even a non-cursed L2 Magic Missile will out-DPR Scorching Ray against a target of AC14 or higher (and with curse MM is a good deal better).  Turns out "just can't miss" really matters.  The important blasting additions in L2 slots are the Concentration spells, like Flaming Sphere or Dragon's Breath.  Cast it on a minion and watch 'em dish out a sculpted 3d6/save for half AoE every turn, with an element of your choice.

*For level 3 slots*, Fireball and Melf's Minute Meteors (or Spirit Guardians if you went Orzhov) are obvious choices for advancing your blasting career.   And there's just a ton of great spells at this level... Sleet Storm, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Life Transference, etc.  Phantom Steed is a particularly useful ritual to pick up.

If you're not averse to animating the dead, that becomes a potent action economy tool, essentially allowing you to convert downtime into minions.

*For level 4 slots*, Storm Sphere and Sickening Radiance are exceptional area denial spells since Sculpt Spells allows allies to walk through them safely (which means that enemies have to walk into the area if they want to engage them in melee.  Or that allies can all surround them and get OAs if enemies try to leave.  That sort of thing).  Storm Sphere also upcasts decently well, since both the AoE and the bonus action scale (meaning that the damage can go up by 2d6 per slot level). 

You also can grab Fire Shield, which you can combine with Armor of Agathys and Hellish Rebuke to really make people regret engaging you in melee (though I usually just stand back unless allies need pressure taken off of them).  And of course all the usual goodies like Polymorph and Evard's Tentacles and the like.

*For level 5 slots*, the highlights on the Evocation list are Wall of Stone, Cone of Cold, Wall of Force, Bigby's Hand, and (surprisingly) Dawn, which actually becomes a half decent spell now that allies can move through it.  Wall of Stone also offers a unique advantage; it's an Evocation spell, so allies automatically make their Dex saves.  And if a target makes its Dex save against Wall of Stone, they can use their Reaction to move up to their speed.

 Animate Objects is also a noteworthy damage spell.  Also, Bestow Curse upcasts well at this level (if cast with a level 5 slot, it lasts 8 hours and doesn't require Concentration). 

*When you hit level 11*, you get *Empowered Evocation*, which means your Magic Missile upcasting really takes off (and with Hexblade's Curse will generally be your biggest single target nova option from here on out), and that all of your other Evocation spells get a meaningful bump too.

Once you have this ability, it becomes important to remember exactly what counts as a single damage roll and what doesn't.  Per PHB pg.196, spells like Fireball roll the damage die just once, and apply that roll to all targets (or in the unique case of Magic Missile, potentially the same target multiple times).

Side note:  If you can get your hands on a merely Uncommon Wand of Magic Missiles (either by finding, buying, or crafting it), they are simply amazing for you with Empowered Evocation.  They let you upcast, and they recharge daily.  They're also non-attunement, so you could just have a bandolier of the things and spam upcast Magic Missiles to your heart's content.

*For level 6 slots*, you get some important action economy tools unique to the Wizard.  Contingency allows you to "store" a 5th level spell slot for a week, and unleash it without an action using whatever trigger you want.  Even before you consider the amazing action economy implications, this basically allows you to use a non-adventuring day to give you an extra spell slot on an adventuring day.   

Otiluke's Freezing Sphere basically lets you hand a _vastly_ larger radius Fireball to a minion to throw with _their_ action instead of yours, meaning that as long as you have a couple rounds to prepare before kicking down the door you can set up some insane first round novas.

Wall of Ice is a multi-purpose hybrid spell.  First it does damage comparable to a 5th level Fireball, then it creates an opaque wall, then if the wall's broken it creates a hazard (which is exploitable in all the usual ways that hazards are). Which, of course, your allies can walk through unharmed thanks to Sculpt Spells. So if the enemy walks through to get to the other side, you can just swap sides.

*For level 7 slots*, there are three important spells on the Evocation list:  Forcecage, Crown of Stars, and Whirlwind.

Crown of Stars is a cornerstone of your blasting strategy from here on out.  It basically does for you what Quicken Spell does for a Sorcerer, giving you 7x 4d12+5 shots as a bonus action, without eating your Concentration.  For a Sorcerer to get 7 cantrip shots in with Quicken Spell, they'd need to spend a whopping 14 Sorcery points (which would take 2 7th level spell slots to create, or could be converted into 2 5th level spell slots).  So I'd say this isn't a bad deal at all, resource-wise.

Whirlwind takes on a whole new luster thanks to Sculpt Spells.  In addition to its usual uses, allies can move inside of it to get at the foes trapped within, or to protect themselves from enemies outside.  The Whirlwind will automatically block projectiles by sucking them up, and anything hostile trying to close to melee will take damage and be Restrained.  They get a save every turn to escape, but that just hurls them away through the air and lands them prone far away from the protected ally.

In addition to this, you get a truly game-changing spell unique to the Wizard list:  Simulacrum.  Just make sure to play safe with it, because it's relatively squishy.  You can kind of think of Simulacrum as allowing you to buy spell slots and actions with gold pieces at an exchange rate that is a complete steal.  It can even add another Overchannel.  Speaking of which...

*At level 15* you get *Overchannel*, an important ability to master.  It maximizes _all_ damage from a spell, including DoT effects, so things like Bigby's Hand, Storm Sphere, Wall of Fire, Fire Shield, Dawn, Sickening Radiance, Melf's Minute Meteors, or Spirit Guardians (if you took Orzhov, it's a Wizard spell for you) are particularly useful.  Yet another reason that ongoing effects are a great choice is because you can potentially cast them out of combat, heal up the damage, and go into battle.

For instant, non-Concentration damage, Fireball, Cone of Cold, and Vitriolic Sphere are all solid choices.  Great for vaporizing swarms.  For single-target, a max proficiency Hexblade's Curse Magic Missile will only go up from 101.5 (average) to 112 damage with Overchannel, so I generally don't use it for that.

*Spoiler: Overchannel management*
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Some people are overly scared of doing any damage to themselves at all with this, but I think playing around the self-inflicted damage is an important aspect of Overchannel.  So how can you manage it?
You get 1 Overchannel/day free.  So does your Simulacrum.  So potentially 2 freebies before you have to damage either yourself or your Simulacrum.As mentioned above, it's possible to Overchannel something with a good duration out of combat and heal up.  Good _if_ your party's out of combat healing is efficient enough.Sometimes, the self-damage will be less than the amount of consequences the party will avoid by shaving even one round off the lifespans of Team Monster at high levels.  10d12 is a lot, but plenty of high level encounters can do worse.  For example, you might clear out an enormous horde of minions, or save downed allies who are about to be finished off.  Just use your good judgment; this is for calculated clutch plays, not for spamming and hoping for the best.Many spells do some level of guaranteed damage (because of save/half).  If you can guaranteed end the combat by using Overchannel, then nobody's going to finish you off even if you drop yourself to zero.The amount of damage you can take is limited by the 0hp gate.  If you're already at like 5 hit points, then using Overchannel to finish a combat _right now_ has less of an opportunity cost in healing resources, and can very well save your life.Also, pay attention to the initiative order.  For example, if your familiar goes right after you, you can Overchannel with 5 hit points left then have your familiar feed you a cheap Healing Potion to pop you back up, leaving you in about the same place you started (7+2d4 hit points probably wasn't going to get you an extra hit from that Ancient Dragon any more than 2+2d4 was).  For another example, if your Life Cleric is about to use a big AoE heal on already-wounded party members anyways, you might want to get in on that.A cautionary note:  If you Overchannel with very low hit points and a scaled up self-damage, you risk death by massive damage.  It's negligible-to-nothing at 10d12 (less than 0.1% if you have 5 hit points and 94 max hp, which is the minimum you'll have at level 15), but can get pretty high if you do it at 15d12 or more.  Don't overdo it.  While I don't agree with the "only ever use it 1/day" philosophy, it's still not for spamming.

*For level 8 slots*, Maddening Darkness is great to sculpt (bonus points if you get Mind Blanked and can stand in your own Maddening Darkness, or cover/uncover upcast Continual Flame items to see when you need to, or have anyone with Blind-Fighting or Devil's Sight or Alert on the team).  So is the 120-foot-wide Sunburst.  And you can also pick up stuff like Maze or Clone.

*For level 9 slots*, you get amazing choices like Wish, Prismatic Wall, Foresight, or Meteor Swarm. 

*For level 19 and 20* we can jump off into Fighter, now that we've got our precious 9th level spell slot.  Taking the Defense fighting style will bump your AC, but that's not why we're here.  Action Surge will serve as your devastating capstone, allowing you to cast a second 1 Action casting time spell in a round (and have your Simulacrum do so, too).  



*Variants/Notes*
*Spoiler: Nuclear Races*
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You want a bonus to Intelligence (so you can start with at least a 16), and at least 14 dexterity and 13 charisma (to qualify for Warlock), and to put whatevers left over into Con.

One interesting caveat of this is that the +2 Cha, +1 Int typing, usually anti-synergistic, actually works out just fine for you which means that Yuan-Ti is even more attractive than normal.  Not that they need it, the race already is overloaded with powerful features; most notably immunity to a common damage type _and_ status effect, and Advantage on all saves against spells and other magical effects.

However, many other races also fit in here well.  Basically anything with a bonus to Intelligence and one of your secondary stats will do.

1)  A plain old *PHB tiefling* can take the same statline as a Yuan-Ti and give you Fire Resistance and a couple extra spell slots.  Having an upcast Hellish Rebuke at level 3 is nice.

2)  You could also take the Winged Tiefling variant from SCAG for at-will flight.

3)  Or any of the Tieflings from MToF, combined with the Feral variant from SCAG to make their statlines appropriate.  Yes, you can combine those.  So feel free to get whatever racial spells you want.

4)  A *Variant Human* can take a starting array of 16 int / 14 Con / 14 Dex / 14 Cha if they take Res(Con) as their bonus feat.  Then they can have a progression like Res(Con) > Max Int > Warcaster > Alert.

5)  *Half-Elf* has enough stats to end up with an array of 16/14/14/14/10/8 or 16/15/14/14/8/8 (which will end up at 16/16 when you take Res(Con).  They've also got a bunch of variants to choose from in SCAG.

6)  *Simic Hybrids* and *Warforged* can get the desired statline, +1 AC, and some useful extra features.

7)  A *Gnome* could start with the usual 16/14/14/14 array, or they could go 17/14/14/13.  In exchange for that point of Charisma, they can get an Int-boosting half-feat when reaching level 4, like Observant, Keen Mind, or Fade Away (from XGtE).

8)  *Mark of Passage* humans get Pass Without Trace and Freedom of Movement added to their list, pass move speed bonus, and a free Misty Step cast. 


*Spoiler: Choosing Cantrips*
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For cantrips I recommend Create Bonfire and any 6 of the following:  Shape Water, Control Flames, Mold Earth, Prestidigitation, Lightning Lure, Fire Bolt, Toll the Dead, Minor Illusion, Frostbite, Thunderclap, or (if Orzhov) Guidance.  At least 2 of those should be attack cantrips.  Here's why I recommend those spells:

*Create Bonfire* This gives you a very worthwhile use for your Concentration for when youre not dumping spell slots on it.  Like a little at-will Cloud of Daggers.  Works great with Potent Cantrip.

Create Bonfire isnt a totally brainless spell; to really get the most out of it youre going to have to use a little strategy.  But for skilled parties, it can really pay off, giving you a source of repeating damage that leaves your Action free and saves your slots for when you really need them.

The most important things to remember are...
A)  Five foot cubes can affect multiple squares on a grid, making this an effective AoE.  In fact, besides the Concentration aspect, its just a straight up superior AoE to Acid Splash.
B)  The damage can be activated once _per turn_, not once _per round_.
C)  It ignites things, so you can just have an Unseen Servant or Familiar or the like pour out oil touching the area and have it get lit up immediately.  This makes for even meaner combinations with grapplers and the like.
D)  Players can surround a foe in a Create Bonfire square in such a formation that leaving the Create Bonfire square will provoke OAs from at least one of them.
E)  Itll deal some guaranteed damage with Potent Cantrip.

*Mold Earth*:  This has occasionally been called the most underrated cantrip in the game.  And while I wouldn't be counting on having the time and space to make 200 foot pitfalls before hitting bedrock, there is quite a lot you can do with it.

*Spoiler: A bunch of cool stuff you can do with Mold Earth*
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Like other shape element cantrips this scales with your creativity and resourcefulness, and distinctly lacks a Verbal component (so you can mess with things without revealing your position).

The first bullet point in the spell's description is the most important one.  Ive seen at least one person say you can do that with a shovel!  I think that they lack a sense of scale.

The ability to instantaneously excavate a 5x5x5 foot cubes worth of earth (125 cubic feet / ~4.6 cubic yards / about 5000 pounds of rather average dirt) in 6 seconds gives you an ability to create earthworks and excavations comparable to an army of people with shovels and entrenching tools.  You can move 75,000 cubic feet of earth in an hour.  Thats no joke.  Thats like 250 commercial dump trucks worth of dirt.  Literally tons upon tons upon tons of dirt.  Mind, you might move less than that in practice (since you might have to move some clumps of dirt more than 5 feet for your engineering project of choice), but even a fraction of that amount is astronomically beyond the scope of what one can do with a shovel in that sort of time frame.  This is an architects dream.

Some examples of uses (some may require some good old fashioned manual labor in addition to use of the spell, but the spell greatly expedites the process):
Signalling/communicating with allies silently (via the make shapes appear function)Create pit traps.Create earthworks fortifications, cover, etc.Construct shelters surprisingly quickly.Redirect a river or lava flow.Burrow under a building.Sink aforementioned building, or otherwise undermine its foundations.  Sapper work in general.Dig a grave instantly.Dig _up_ a grave instantly, for you grave robbers and necromancers out there.Excavate buried ruins with one man instead of 100.Block off dungeon passageways until youre ready to go through them.Reinforce an unstable structure.Hide underground.Activate pressure plates and other traps by sending mounds of earth ahead of you.  Why sacrifice innocent summoned minions when you can just use sand?Cleaning. 

Some examples of possible mid-combat uses:
Create cover around a ranged character (think digging a foxhole surrounded by dirt mounds).  ¾ cover is frequently better than the Dodge action, and this action can be taken on behalf of an ally.  Sure, the walls only loose earth but its a considerable lot of it (~4.6 cubic yards of dirt plus ~4.6 cubic yards of hole.  To get an idea of how enormous that is, here's just 2 cubic yards, with no foxhole.  So think almost 5 times that space to work with)Fill in a hole, while someone is in it.  Multiple characters with the cantrip can both make the hole and fill it in, potentially burying a foe alive in a single round.  A DM will probably permit some some sort of reaction for that, though.Block up Tuckers Kobolds stupid tunnels.  Possibly after throwing some smoke generating fire in there.  See how they like it.An enemy is standing near a cliff edge.  You shape the earth theyre standing on into a steep slide. 

The main thing holding this spell back is that its limited by environment.  That said, loose earth isnt exactly a particularly rare type of terrain; it applies to most outdoor environs, and in a medieval setting it would apply to quite a few indoor ones as well.  And you always have the option of bringing some earth with you (such as for the pressure plates usage I suggested).

Side note:  The term "loose earth" is rather ambiguous.  After all "loose" is a relative term, some dirt is packed tighter than other dirt, and all dirt is loose compared to stone.  Thankfully the intent has been clarified in Sage Advice; it basically refers to any dirt short of solid stone.  Basically, if you can use a shovel on it, you can Mold it.


*Shape Water*: Like other shape element cantrips this scales with your creativity and resourcefulness, and distinctly lacks a Verbal component (so you can mess with things without revealing a hidden position).

This thread has a solid collection of ideas for uses.

*Minor Illusion*:  An at-will, non-concentration illusion?  Shut up and take my cantrip slot!

One interesting tidbit is that this (alongside all of the "shape element" cantrips) has no Verbal component, so you can mess with things without revealing a hidden position.

*Fire Bolt*:  Toll the Dead is the standby damage cantrip, but what if you really want to target AC?  For ranged Evocation cantrips that target AC, it's basically either this or Ray of Frost.  This one has higher damage, twice the range, and can target objects.  Though this doesn't work with Potent Cantrip, it's nice to have a 120 foot range option on hand.

Ray of Frost is a solid alternative if your team is set up to take advantage of the slows.  Some people like to deliver Shocking Grasp through their familiars to get rid of reactions, too.  Whichever you go for, I wouldn't take more than 1 AC-targeting cantrip.

Both of these, however, are subject to the disadvantages of ranged attack rolls.  Enemies can give you Disadvantage by being in melee with you or being prone, or they could get cover from any number of sources (including your own melee front line).  And they won't benefit from Potent Cantrip. 

*Control Flames*:  This is my personal favorite of the 3 "light" spells.  Dancing Lights is limited by the fact that it requires precious Concentration, and the main trick I see advocated for it (lighting up enemies while keeping your allies obscured in darkness) can be accomplished by alternative means, like an Unseen Servant with a bullseye lantern, or lighting the room on fire (it's utility, I say!).  Light can only produce 20ft bright/20 ft dim light, and can only create a single effect.

By contrast, Control Flames can produce 60 ft bright / 60 ft dim (equivalent brightness to the Daylight spell) with a hooded lantern, or 120 ft bright / 120 ft dim with a bullseye lantern.  Even a lowly, expendable torch will provide 40/40 and can be dropped or tossed like a flare.  Additionally, it can maintain up to 3 effects, rather than just one.  And it doesn't take Concentration.

The main advantage of Light is that its a waterproof, completely expendable light that doesn't take up your hand.  But I can make a permanent one of those with Continual Flame without using up a precious cantrip slot, and the one made by Continual Flame can illuminate magical darkness if upcast to level 3 or higher (since as a general rule, lights created with a slot of level 3 or higher illuminate magical Darkness).

In addition to its utility as a light spell, Control Flames can do some other things.  Here's a few ideas:
No Verbal component means you can do things like animate some guardsmens' torches to make it appear like they're sputtering out naturally in a gust of wind, without revealing your Hidden position.  Useful against enemies that don't have Darkvision.It's an efficient fire extinguisher.  Other cantrips can do this, but not with a similar level of efficiency.  Given that spells like Fireball ignite everything flammable in the area, it can be handy to be able to clean up your own messes.  (Note:  While you can't extinguish magic fire, the fires created as collateral damage of magic are usually nonmagical)You can change the color of flames, and nothing is stopping you from choosing a color that's not in the visible spectrum.You can exacerbate the effect of things like Alchemist's Fire, oil flasks, or squares lit on fire by your various spells (because while you can't manipulate magical flame, you can manipulate the nonmagical fires that they might start as collateral damage).Performance art.  Minor Illusion is great, but it can't make something animated. 

*Lightning Lure:*  A d8 base damage that works with Potent Cantrip and Empowered Evocation, and can pull people into your Create Bonfire or other hazards.  The downside is that its short range, and the damage only triggers if the enemy ends up within 5 feet of you (which sadly limits its synergy with Potent Cantrip).

*Toll the Dead:*  The straight up highest damage single target cantrip prior to getting Empowered Evocation, and competitive even after that (e.g. 4d12 is more than 4d8+5).  Very consistent output with Potent Cantrip.  Also doesn't care about cover, people being in melee with you, etc.  

Some people suffer from loss aversion bias and skip this because it doesn't work with Empowered Evocation.  That would be a mistake, since Potent Toll the Dead will often outperform Empowered Fire Bolt.

*Thunderclap:*  Gives you access to a 15-foot diameter aoe (e.g. extending 5 feet from each edge of your square) thats compatible with Potent Cantrip and Empowered Evocation.  Handy for clearing away mook swarms.  The main disadvantage is that you need to be right up close.

Better than Sword Burst mostly because its compatible with Empowered Evocation.  The difference in save types doesn't matter that much (unlike big guys, little mooks often have fairly similar Dex and Con saves, and these spells are for little mooks).

*Frostbite:*  The main selling point of Frostbite is that it works with both Potent Cantrip and Empowered Evocation, and thus can be a solid pick for the last cantrip you learn (e.g. when you have both of those things).  It still won't do as much damage as Toll the Dead (despite EE), but Toll the Dead doesn't give people Disadvantage.

It's better when allies all have an at least decent AC (because Disadvantage helps less if they just have a bad 14 AC vs enemies with +10 to hit anyways).

*Prestidigitation:*  If you didn't have Prestidigitation, you would have to live like a martial peasant.  You'd have to clean the blood off your robes.  You'd have to go _without_ chilling your drink to the perfect temperature.  And you would have to endure the _actual_ flavor of trail rations.  And you couldn't pleasantly scent your scarf and pull it up over your nose when skulking through smelly old dungeons.  It's undignified.



*Spoiler: Feats*
Show


*Alert* is a great defensive and offensive feat for a Wizard.  It'll prevent unseen foes from getting advantage (great with vision blocker spells), prevent them from surprising you (one of the deadlier scenarios in 5e), and allow you to go first, which often means weakening or killing enemies before they get to act. 

*Resilient (Con)* will help you maintain Concentration and help you make saves against various nasty things.  

If you have more space for feats due to rolling high on Intelligence, being a VHuman, or simply want to change things up, here's some more good choices:

*Warcaster* will improve your Concentration and allow you to apply pressure with OAs (something that's very doable when you have access to stuff like a good AC, Fire Shield, Armor of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke, and hazard spells).  

*Inspiring Leader* scales primarily based on level, and with 13 Cha you qualify for it!  If your party doesn't have a lot of sources of temporary hit points, this will provides more hit points than a Con bump for your whole team and your minions (your familiar might actually be able to survive a hit).

A *+2 Con bump* doesn't hurt.  I generally prefer this to Tough since it will improve your Concentration and saving throw.

*Lucky* is a decent all-around feat for everyone, mostly for negating crits and retrying saving throws.  It's something you take after you have all the other feats you really want in order to lower the chances of failing that crucial saving throw.

If you happen to have an odd Int score, you can bump it up with *Observant* or *Keen Mind*.  The latter becomes attractive if your DM rules that you can memorize your spellbook so that you can re-scribe it if it's lost (and if your DM is the kind where that sort of thing is a real possibility).  *Flames of Phlegethos* is good for this if you're a Tiefling.

Speaking of Tieflings, you might go Res(Con), end up with an odd Con score, and then bump it back up to even with *Infernal Constitution*.  Now you've got 3 resistances, all to some of the most common damage types (Fire, Cold, Poison), and Advantage on saving throws against one of the more common status effects (Poisoned).


*Spoiler: Multiclassing*
Show


You can take the Hexblade level at pretty much any time in your progression, it doesn't need to be first.  However, taking it first will give you +2 hit points and proficiency in Charisma saving throws, which is good because it evens out your saves.  A defense is only as strong as its weakest link, after all.

You also can choose to leave out Fighter and instead take more levels in Wizard.  Doing so will give you an extra ASI, an extra 6th level spell slot, and access to Spell Mastery, which allows you to pick 2 at-will spells.  There are a lot of good options there.

What's good for Spell Mastery?  Here's some ideas:
*Big Sustained DPR*:  3 vanilla GWM attacks (+6 to hit, 2d6+15 damage) against AC 19 is worth just 27.45 DPR.  A single level 1 Magic Missile with Empowered Evocation is worth 25.5 DPR.  *Magic Missile + Dragon's Breath*, shared by you and your Simulacrum, means 51 guaranteed MM damage plus 21/save for half AoE damage from your two familiars.  That's a lot of at-will damage, and it still leaves your bonus action open for something like Crown of Stars or Hexblade's Curse, too.
*Concentration-Free Defenses*:  Shield + Mirror's Image.
*Concentration-Free Vision Control*:  See Invisibility or Pyrotechnics.

This loses out on the devastating nova potential of Action Surge, but honestly your novas are already really mean without it, and some tables will prefer you _don't_ do quite that much damage in one shot  :Small Tongue: 


*Spoiler: How do I get my resourceless contribution up as a Wizard?*
Show


Asmodeus kills a kitten familiar every time a Wizard player thinks the entirety of their resourceless contribution is just casting Fire Bolt.  Im here to tell you that youve got options.  Good ones!

First, use rituals.  Use them _all the time._  You can cast them while moving, so be casting one at every spare moment just in case there happens to be ten minutes between things happening.  Many good rituals last for an hour with no Concentration (Phantom Steed, Unseen Servant, etc) so you can have multiple ones going at a time.  Some might as well be permanent features (for example, Water Breathing lasts 24 hours and affects the entire party, which means you just cast it as part of your daily routine and everyone breathes water forever).  

Things like opening a fight with 200 foot moves (Phantom Steed) or having an Unseen Servant laying out ball bearings as a bonus action or using a potion on an ally or even just shining a Control Flame bullseye lantern on things can really add up.

Second, use your familiar.  Use them_ all the time._  Have that owl flyby and use the Help action to boost the DPR of an ally (ideally someone like a Rogue or GWM user or something) and then get to a safe location.  The difference between their normal DPR and advantage DPR?  Thats part of your unselfish DPR contribution, and didnt even take any of your actions.  Familiars can also do things like pour out vials or oil or drop caltrops or carry Control Flames lanterns or whatever.

Also dont forget that Mr. Owl has a very respectable passive perception of 18 (13+5 from keen sight and hearing) and 120 foot darkvision.  And can fly around.  And a bunch of other things.  Basically, familiars are awesome.  If they die just resummon them for a pittance.

Third, Create Bonfire is a great way to use your Concentration when youre not using it on actual spells.  Its a solid AoE (remember, 5-foot cubes can affect multiple squares, see how AoE spells work on a grid) that deals damage comparable (or superior if it hits 2+ targets) to most other cantrips when its thrown out... but creates a persistent hazard that allows for recurrent damage, potentially once per turn (not once per round).  If youve got a stunner or restrainer or a grappler or a repelling eldritch blaster or a Pushing Attack battlemaster or a Thorn Whipper or an Open Hand Monk or any of a ton of other things in your party, you can be proccing that over and over again (not to mention being able to do so with your own abilities, like Thunderwave or Lightning Lure).  And you can have your familiar or unseen servant pour an oil vial on an area touching the space (which the bonfire will then ignite) for more damage every time they enter it or end their turn there.  And once you get Potent Cantrip itll do damage even if the enemy saves.  And theres no risk to your own team from the hazard since you can just drop Concentration at any time, even off-turn.

You can even set it up before a fight begins to save on action economy (for example, setting it right near the dungeon door youre about to kick in).  You also can get some damage off enemies trying to leave the square (since ideally your teammates should be positioning for OAs).

Great cantrip that can really rack up damage with a little teamwork, while leaving your action free for #4.

Fourth, your other cantrips.  For raw damage, theres Toll the Dead (targeting Wis and benefiting from Potent Cantrip) or Fire Bolt (targeting AC and benefiting from Empowered Evocation, and allowing you to take advantage of your familiars Help if you dont have anyone better to use it on at the moment).   Lightning Lure can benefit from both PC and EE, and can pull people into your hazards (like Create Bonfire, burning oil, or slotted spells).  Thunderclap gives you a 15-foot diameter AoE that benefits from PC and EE.  Frostbites damage becomes decent with PC and EE and can give an opponent Disadvantage to attack.   Theres also the creative cantrips, like creating cover with Minor Illusion or Mold Earth.

So now you combine all of these things simultaneously (and potentially more, Im just giving you the short list here.  Seriously the Wizard optimization rabbit hole goes deep).  So youve got your unseen servant pouring out oil on your Bonfire square (which potentially hit multiple enemies when you first cast it), which then does (tier)d8/save for half (Potent Cantrip) and 5 guaranteed (oil) every time you can get someone to enter it or end their turn there.  And youve got your familiar granting Advantage on an attack (contributing more DPR to the party).  And youre throwing out a Toll the Dead or a Frostbite for (tier)d6+5/save for half and giving the enemy Disadvantage.  And youve got your archer on a phantom steed riding around.  All at the same time.

And you havent even used a single spell slot yet.


Whew.  Wizards have a lot to cover (I actually cut this down pretty considerably from my original draft, since it was too long).  Anyways, hope you enjoy!  

There's an awful lot of stuff in here and I'm not perfect, so please let me know if I messed anything up and I'll correct it posthaste  :Small Smile:

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## Corran

> Whew.  Wizards have a lot to cover (I actually cut this down pretty considerably from my original draft, since it was too long).  Anyways, hope you enjoy!  
> 
> There's an awful lot of stuff in here and I'm not perfect, so please let me know if I messed anything up and I'll correct it posthaste


While not evocation spells, see invisibility and true sight deserve a mention, since not being able to see the target is another one of the few things that can counter the magic missile nuke.

As a criticism, I think your seriously overestimate create bonfire. If anyone is to not pity using a spell slot for an effective concentration effect, that would be a wizard.

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## Lyracian

> Alright, let's build a Nuclear Wizard!
> At Lyracian's request, I'll be providing multiple versions using different races.


Thank you for thinking of me! I shall enjoy reading all of this tomorrow.  Just off to bed and saw you had posted.

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## LudicSavant

> Thank you for thinking of me! I shall enjoy reading all of this tomorrow.  Just off to bed and saw you had posted.


NP!   :Small Smile: 




> *snip*


Thanks for the feedback!  I really like all of the "information wars" abilities like See Invisibility and True Seeing.  Added a mention as suggested.

I do think you're underestimating Create Bonfire, however; that cantrip has seriously been paying my bills through multiple campaigns, especially over long adventuring days.

*Spoiler: Reasons why*
Show


Note how well CB compares to the actual second level spell, Cloud of Daggers, at just level 7.  It does 2d8 initial damage, and every time someone enters or ends turn in my Create Bonfire + oil square, they take 2d8 (save for half) +5 (oil, no save).  So 14 damage / save for 9.5 damage.  Cloud of Daggers simply does 4d4 (10) on each proc, and doesn't even do initial damage.  It's a bit easier to proc (because of "starts turn there" instead of "ends turn there") but that's about it.  And it's not like that damage can only hit once.

Seriously, I'll keep having situations like:  Cast bonfire on two adjacent targets > Warlock knocks someone in with Repelling EB for a proc > grappler moves them out and back in for a proc > grappler prevents them from moving on their turn for a proc > people trying to get out of the bonfire take OAs from surrounding party, or use the Disengage action or use their single spell for the turn on Misty Step or something.  At which point I've done 5 hits of bonfire and 3 hits of oil for* 10d8/save for half (bonfire) +15 (oil, no miss chance) on the first round*, possibly more if people take OAs trying to get out of dodge.  And then I get my next turn, where something similar happens except my action is now free to add onto it.  And of course if they leave we can often just knock 'em right back in.

The strength of Create Bonfire (and many other hazard spells, for that matter) is that it aggravates the impact of positioning and pressure abilities for you and the rest of the party.  If your party understands that, you can just sit back and watch beautiful damage rack up.  As long as you or anyone in your team can reliably proc it (and there are lots ways to do that), then it's superb value for a cantrip.

Incidentally, the example I just gave isn't even on the higher end of how much you can exploit Create Bonfire.  For instance, stuff like this exists:  https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/com...reate_bonfire/.  It's entirely possible for a single character to reliably and resourcelesly activate a Bonfire/oil square 3 times in a round (4 if you count the initial hit).

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## Sparky McDibben

What's DoT?

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## LudicSavant

> What's DoT?


Damage over time.  Stuff with a duration that deals damage, basically.

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## Sparky McDibben

Thanks; love these builds!!!

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## Skylivedk

@LudicSavant
Thank you! I like both your content and your way of conveying it. I look forward to see if you're going about it the same way I would! Before seeing it, I was thinking Hexblade 1 / Evocation Wizard X. Let me know if I can ever help you in some way and thank you again for your great work.

[Was from a PM before reading the thread when Ludic did me the favour of notifying me of nuclear going up]

- of course the Action Surge from Fighter was the cheese topping that I forgot about (I've yet to go 5e to that level range).

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## Lyracian

> *Build 1:  Celestial Generalist*
> This is a jack of all trades build highlighting the versatility of the Celestial Warlock.


I have created this for an actual game.  We roleled stats (mine are not great).  Decided to go with Half-Elf and take Moderately Armoured at Level 4 since the +2 Chr is the same as an ASI.  
Starting with 9/14/10/11/10/18.

The order you had the spells listed is somewhat confusing so I split it by level.

Spells Known
1st: Cure Wounds, Armor of Agathys, Hex, Hellish Rebuke
2nd: Misty Step
3rd: Hypnotic Pattern, Revivify, Counterspell, Thunder Step, 
5th: Synaptic Static, Greater Restoration
Mystic Arcanum: Mass Suggestion

Were you just taking Thuder Step over Dimension Door due to the damage?

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## Cyclone_Knight

I thought Empowered Evocation only applies to one damage roll per spell casting; doesnt magic missile roll separately for each missiles?

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## Sparky McDibben

> I thought Empowered Evocation only applies to one damage roll per spell casting; doesnt magic missile roll separately for each missiles?


Not by RAW:

"Beginning at 10th level, you can add your Intelligence modifier to the damage roll of _any_ wizard evocation spell you cast."

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## Evaar

> Not by RAW:
> 
> "Beginning at 10th level, you can add your Intelligence modifier to the damage roll of _any_ wizard evocation spell you cast."


That wording wouldn't add damage to each missile if they were rolled separately. You'd add the intelligence modifier once to the spell and that would be it.

The key is that Magic Missiles aren't rolled separately. As Ludic linked in his post, on Twitter Crawford confirmed this.

"Yep. It's one damage roll, just like fireball, but that roll can damage the same target more than once."

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...23175581769729

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## Sparky McDibben

This feels like one of those weird rules interactions that winds up with a very non-intuitive result. Thanks for breaking it down for me, but I think I would rule that Empowered Evocation would apply to all the damage rolls of evocation spells you attack with - like Scorching Ray would get +5 added to each of those rolls. That way a 2nd level spell scales up and remains relevant to an 11th level wizard.

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## Cyclone_Knight

> Not by RAW:
> 
> "Beginning at 10th level, you can add your Intelligence modifier to the damage roll of _any_ wizard evocation spell you cast."


Check the current official PHB errata.  I dont have enough posts to link it, but it specifies that the damage roll should be one damage roll.

Of course, if magic missile is only one damage roll that is rolled once and applied to each missile, the point is moot.

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## Sparky McDibben

Thanks Ludic! You're a godsend for those of us too busy to dream these builds up!

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## LudicSavant

Just for fun, we can get _even more_ damage as a Nuclear Wizard:

Wish->Hallow to create an area of Vulnerability:Force, then proceed with the rest of the combo.  This will boost the average damage of your 3 castings of Magic Missile to 899 nova DPR.  Have your Overchanneled Concentration option be Bigby's Hand (which also does Force damage) for a total of 128 damage from both you and your Simulacrum, boosting you up to 1027 if they hit.  Then potentially add on Freezing Spheres, Crown of Stars, etc as normal.

So yeah.  There's your PHB+1, no-gear, over-1000-damage burst.  *Shrug*




> I have created this for an actual game.  We roleled stats (mine are not great).  Decided to go with Half-Elf and take Moderately Armoured at Level 4 since the +2 Chr is the same as an ASI.  
> Starting with 9/14/10/11/10/18.
> 
> The order you had the spells listed is somewhat confusing so I split it by level.
> 
> Spells Known
> 1st: Cure Wounds, Armor of Agathys, Hex, Hellish Rebuke
> 2nd: Misty Step
> 3rd: Hypnotic Pattern, Revivify, Counterspell, Thunder Step, 
> ...


I like both Thunder Step and Dimension Door.  Dimension Door has better range and infiltration/exploration capabilities.  Thunder Step has damage/kiting.  I say go for whichever you like.

Also worth noting, that spell list would be for level 12.  You should probably be switching spells known in and out as you're leveling up.

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## Lyracian

> Just for fun, we can get _even more_ damage as a Nuclear Wizard:
>  This will boost the average damage of your 3 castings of Magic Missile to 899 nova DPR.


I talked to one of my GM's about Evocation Wizard and his rule was no only one missile gets the bonus not all of them.  Having read the build I think my view would be to allow the damage to add to each target which is what happens with spells such as Fireball.  Skipping the attack role makes MM a bit of an odd spell.  Saying that MM is the same damage roll for each missile seems as crazy as saying Fireball is 1d6*8.  I enjoyed reading all your information about Wizard.  I am going to try using Unseen Servant with a flask of oil next time I am using Bonfire/Flaming Sphere.




> Also worth noting, that spell list would be for level 12.  You should probably be switching spells known in and out as you're leveling up.


I was not trying to get a list of spells to take in order just working out what the spells were.  I know as soon as I get to level 5 I would be swapping out to get two Third Level spells and Revivify will depend on how rich the party is.

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## Mercurias

LudicSavant, would you mind your next writeup being that Soulknife (EK/War Magic Wiz) you mentioned before? The idea of that one really struck my fancy.

This Nuclear Wizard is an interesting Gish. Im pretty sure my DMs would shoot me on the spot if I ever brought it to them, but I love the concept behind it for combat and utility casting.

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## Sparky McDibben

I second the soulknife request!!! These are great and I love them!

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## Klorox

@LudicSavant: what does that hexblade level really lend the Nuclear wizard build?

I get a little extra survivability early, but I cant help but think youre better off as a pure wizard. 

Any hexblade spells key off of CHA, which will always be 14. Other than hex, youre a level behind with your spells, arent you?

Im not trying to instigate an argument here, Im genuinely curious. TIA.

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## Evaar

> @LudicSavant: what does that hexblade level really lend the Nuclear wizard build?
> 
> I get a little extra survivability early, but I cant help but think youre better off as a pure wizard. 
> 
> Any hexblade spells key off of CHA, which will always be 14. Other than hex, youre a level behind with your spells, arent you?
> 
> Im not trying to instigate an argument here, Im genuinely curious. TIA.


The build is almost entirely reliant on the extra damage from Hexblades Curse. Because the extra damage is keyed off your proficiency bonus, it continues to scale even though you only ever take the one level.

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## LudicSavant

> @LudicSavant: what does that hexblade level really lend the Nuclear wizard build?


Quite a bit!

1)  Hexblade's Curse synergizes exceptionally well with the Evoker's kit.  It scales with proficiency, so it's the gift that just keeps on giving.  It's a significant part of what allows you to do such massive single target damage when you need to.

2)  It's not a little survivability early, it's a lot of survivability forever.  25 AC is already enough that even an Ancient White Dragon needs an 11 to hit you, and that's really the low end of your defenses by that level (just base AC + Shield).  Not only does this protect your hit points, it also helps protect your Concentration (ya don't make a check if the enemy misses you).

3)  It also makes your mental saving throws more even, which goes well with Magic Resistance and the like.  To get an idea of the math involved, a -1 Cha save with Advantage (from Yuan-Ti Magic Resistance) still has a whopping 90.25% chance of getting Banished by a DC19 save, while a +8 Cha with Advantage has only a 25% chance and a +13 (from standing next to your local Paladin) has only a 6.25% chance.  Incidentally, your good defenses make it safer to stand within 10 feet of the Paladin in the first place.  Anywho, point is that I'd rather have three good saving throws than 1 really good, one good, and one terrible.  A defense is only as strong as its weakest link, after all.

4)  Extra spell slots / adventuring day and 2 extra cantrips known.  Makes an especially noticeable difference in the early game, but never becomes irrelevant.

5)  It's basically a non-issue that Hexblade spells key off of Cha.  We only rarely use our actual Hexblade spells (because we can use Warlock slots for Wizard spells), and when we do, well, Armor of Agathys doesn't scale off Charisma anyways.  Incidentally, this gives you some nasty retribution damage potential, because unlike a Sorcerer you have access to Fire Shield to stack on it (which in turn combos with things like Overchannel, Hexblade's Curse, Empowered Evocation, etc).  You basically can't be killed by melee attacks before all of the melee attackers die when using this.  Just one more tool for the ever-expanding Batman toolbelt.




> I am going to try using Unseen Servant with a flask of oil next time I am using Bonfire/Flaming Sphere.


  Nice.  It's really great as long as you have some consistent way of pushing people around and/or restricting their movement in the team.  In the case of a current campaign I'm in, the main culprit of this is a character with Tavern Brawler.

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## Amechra

These builds are pretty sweet - it reminds me a bit of the good old days of 3e charop. Brings a tear to this old fogie's eye.

Something I want to bring up (which some kind soul might use to make something hilarious): Armor of Agathys and Arcane Ward have some crazy synergy with each-other. From how I read it, Arcane Ward takes damage before your temporary HP from Armor of Agathys, but Armor of Agathys _still triggers_ (if you were hit by a melee attack, of course). I'm pretty sure there's a gimmicky front-line fighter that could use that.

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## Evaar

I'm intending to play something like the Celestial Warlock build in DotMM. I put my own variants on it that likely de-optimize it somewhat but make the flavor a little more compelling to me - primarily, I went Tiefling (Glasya) and started with odd scores in both Con and Cha with the intent to even them out by taking the Tiefling racial traits.

I'm sure the Variant Human version is more optimized, but the rest of the group is pretty new to 5e so I don't want to constantly have the spotlight. Primarily what I'm looking to do is be able to function effectively in whatever role we need at the time, since everyone else is still pretty timid and uncertain about what they should be doing during fights. I'm looking forward to it and will report back how it goes.

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## ThatDuckGrant

Looks like its been a while since anyone has added a build here, so Ill give it a go.

This build focuses on a specific weapon I find extremely fun and eclectic, though difficult to optimize, and Ive named the character based on the weapon. 

The Shadow Whip

vHuman Hexblade 1, Shadow Sorcerer X
Abilities: 8, 14, 16, 8, 10, 16
ASIs: Spell Sniper (Booming Blade), Cha+4, War Caster, Con+4
Grab the Orzhov background from GGtR if you can. Adding Spirit Guardians to this makes things even more fun. Im going to pretend you dont have it though.

The whip is a tough weapon to master. Its the only 1 handed weapon in the game with reach, but in exchange it only does 1d4 damage, which makes it 2 damage worse per hit than other martial 1 handed weapons. What does that mean? To be effective, we need to use fewer attacks, and hit harder with each one. That leaves us 4 options, each with some flaws. 

Option 1: The Kensei Monk. This is a great option for those who want to use a whip. The Kensei get to replace the whips d4 with their martial arts die, which means at high levels youll be doing as much or more damage as a longsword. The only problem is that the kensei is still better off using that longsword until the MA die becomes a D8, which means your build isnt exactly focused around the whip, or its taking a hit to do so.

Option 2: The Rogue. This is another fine option, as the difference between a rapier and a whip is less noticeable when youre rolling 10d6 along with it. The problem here is that rogues arent proficient with whips, and most rogues are a bit squishy to be in combat. You can fix this with a level of fighter, but your DPR and versatility are a bit lower than the Shadow sorcerer. Still a great pick. 

Option 3: The war or tempest cleric runs a whip build well, but theyre going to be MAD in doing so, and if youre going to be MAD and have martial proficiency, you might as well use a Polearm. 

Option 4: The Shadow Whip.

The goal here is to control the battlefield by twinning Booming Blade at reach. Shadow sorcerer allows us to effectively debuff our enemies while we do so. It also gets us around the most obvious downside of the vHuman: Lack of darkvision. You get it to 120 feet, as good as a Drow, and without the sunlight sensitivity. 

Here is the beginning of the build progression with suggested combat tactics. Admittedly, you stop gaining features later on that really add to your DPR, but your ability to give permanent disadvantage on saves (like quickened hold monster) makes your DPR stupidly high without you needing to deal the damage yourself.

1. Shadow sorcerer 1: take GFB to go along with BB from Spell Sniper and whatever 3 non-combat cantrips you like. I like Friends to pair with disguise self (more on that later). Take Shield and Absorb Elements as your spells. Youll need them. 

2. Hexblade 1: Now you can use your whip! I also take EB here for a ranged option, and I think AoA and Hex (for social encounters) are my two favorite warlock spells. Hellish Rebuke is also a great option. 

3. Sorcerer 2: Take Disguise Self. Nothing really exciting happens this level, but Disguise Self and Friends combine for one hell of a social play, and unless you have a bard or rogue in the party, youll double as the FoP.

4. Sorcerer 3: Twinned Spell is mandatory. It doubles your damage output pretty frequently, and at this level, will have you dealing almost as much damage on opponents turns as your own, because low level mooks tend not to have great range or reach, so theyll be forced to move off of booming blade.

Your other metamagic is up to you. Quicken is the best, but spending 2 sorcery points is pretty brutal at this level. I would pick up subtle, as it will let you use your shield and still cast Shield, and also lets you subtlecast Friends in social situations.

You also get Darkness that you can see through at this level, which means your DM is about to start digging through the Monster manual for mooks with tremorsense or youll be making your 2 attacks with advantage. This saves you from needing to pick up greater invisibility in the long run. I take misty step as my other spell. 

5. Sorcerer 4: ASI should be Charisma+2, and feel free to take whatever sorcerer spell you like. At this point Im probably concentrating on Darkness, but Enlarge/reduce or Blur arent terrible options. I would take Mirror Image.

6. Sorcerer 5: Twinned Haste is a hallmark of any sorcerer build. It works for you too, though maybe better if you twin it on two allies than yourself. You dont have to pick Haste though, something like Fear can be great for you, with all the OAs it might cause from your reach. Counterspell and Hypnotic Pattern are also great choices. You can make this build what you want at this point. 

7. Sorcerer 6: This is the reason youre a shadow sorcerer. You just got a better version of heightened spell for the same cost. This ability meshes particularly well with effects that immobilize a target, like confusion and hold monster/person. If you think youll be fighting any humanoids soon, take hold person here. Otherwise, Slow is a debilitating debuff thats also a save-or-suck. Your four-legged friend will make sure at least one of them wont make that save.

From this point on, you can get more creative with your choices. I generally think that Cha 20 is better than War Caster at 8, but youll have to decide if youre getting enough OAs to change up the order. Additionally, I take wrote in Con as my last 2 ASIs because youre a d6 hit die frontliner, but you can choose if youd rather go another (perhaps more offensive) route.

Metamagic: I would take quicken at 10 and heightened at 17. You can then summon a hound, and upcast hold monster to give 2 enemies disadvantage on their saving throw for 6 sorcery points and a 6th level spell. Thats an encounter ender there. 

Spells I like from here are generally save spells. Things like hold monster and disintegrate are spells that your wizard stays away from, but you turn them into your DMs bane. 

If this gets any traction maybe Ill post a whole spell progression, but this post is long enough as is.

----------


## Zeikin

> Option 4: The Shadow Whip.
> 
> The goal here is to control the battlefield by twinning Booming Blade at reach.


Both Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade require the target to be within the spells reach, which unfortunately is 5. 

I think exploring the whip is a great idea, i would probably go more the Paladin/Kensai route myself. Or Kensai/Battle Master.

----------


## Trickery

> Both Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade require the target to be within the spells reach, which unfortunately is 5. 
> 
> I think exploring the whip is a great idea, i would probably go more the Paladin/Kensai route myself. Or Kensai/Battle Master.


That's what Spell Sniper is for. Spell sniper doubles the range of your spells and works as described with BB / GFB. It's an interesting build for sure.

I'm hesitant to suggest this but, if your DM allows, you can mix this build with the coffeelock to make a coffeelock shadow whip. You sacrifice spell progression to gain near-infinite castings of your lower level spells and all of the twinned and quickened BBs and GFBs you could want.

Coffeelock, for those who don't know, uses aspect of the moon, warlock short rest spell slots, and sorcerer's font of magic to turn warlock spell slots into sorcery points into sorcerer spell slots which last until you take a long rest. Aspect of the moon allows you to skip ever taking a long rest as long as your DM allows it and doesn't use the optional rule from Xanathar's that would give you exhaustion for skipping long rests whether you have aspect of the moon or not. You thus end up with an arbitrarily high number of stockpiled spell slots and perhaps the most contentious build in 5e history.

----------


## Amechra

I could see this working in a lower-optimization game:

*Whippy the Wonder Goblin*
Goblin Bard (Sword) 1/Monk (Kensei) 5/Bard (Sword) 4/Monk (Kensei) 10
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 15

*ASIs:*
5th: +1 Wis, +1 Cha
10th: +2 Dex
13th: +2 Dex
17th: +2 Cha

*Fighting Style*
Pick up Dueling at 8th level. It's a bit late, but every little bit helps (plus, it's not like two-weapon fighting will help you at all...)

You only graduate to whips at 4th level, sadly (Seriously, why don't Bards get proficiency in whips? My memories of 3e tripped me up there.)

But _anyway_, Blade Flourishes actually work pretty well with the Monk's whole combat schtick of being ultra mobile. If you need some space, whipping someone and sending them flying up to 13ft away works _wonders_. Plus, you can't waste your uses (or Deft Strikes), since you use them _after_ you hit. Plus you've got a bit of utility spellcasting and can dump those good ol' Bardic Inspiration uses on an ally if they need the help.

---

And, for a better (i.e. less clunky) Kensei build, why don't we go _savage_?


Lizardfolk Barbarian 1/Monk (Kensei) 5/Barbarian 1/Monk (Kensei) 13
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 8

*ASIs:*
5th: Athlete (+1 Str, stand from prone with 5ft of movement, climbing uses full speed, can do standing jumps _all the time_)
10th: +2 Str
14th: +2 Str
18th: +2 Con

OK, here's the plan:
You make a shield with Cunning Artisan. And you _use that shield_.

Unarmored Defense? You got a better version from Barbarian, and even if you didn't? You start off with AC 13+Dex anyway thanks to Lizardfolk.
Martial Arts? Bite gives you a 1d6+str unarmed attack, so you don't need Martial Arts to keep up your damage for when you use Agile Parry to bump up your (pretty decent) AC.
Unarmored Movement? OK, this one hurts a little. But if you gotta go fast, you can just... drop the shield? It was _free_, after all. Plus, being able to hold your breath for 15 minutes and being able to swim eases the pain of not being able to walk on water.

You can still do all of your other favorite Monk things (you can't catch-and-return with Deflect Missiles, but that's about it). Plus, you've got some interesting extra synergy, like Reckless Attack + Patient Defense (or Flurry of Blows, if you really want to savage someone). And, if the going gets tough... there's always your 2/long Rage.

----------


## Godrocks911

Any Wood Elf Ranger 1-20, i am so lost in the sauce

----------


## Daghoulish

> snip


I really like these. Also, in the barbarian/monk it says Barb1/Monk5/Barb1? Do you take another barb level or what? I would say the worst thing you lose from having a shield with that build is losing the ability to make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, which is a part of martial arts and lost when holding a shield.

----------


## Zeikin

> That's what Spell Sniper is for. Spell sniper doubles the range of your spells and works as described with BB / GFB. It's an interesting build for sure.
> 
> I'm hesitant to suggest this but, if your DM allows, you can mix this build with the coffeelock to make a coffeelock shadow whip. You sacrifice spell progression to gain near-infinite castings of your lower level spells and all of the twinned and quickened BBs and GFBs you could want.
> 
> Coffeelock, for those who don't know, uses aspect of the moon, warlock short rest spell slots, and sorcerer's font of magic to turn warlock spell slots into sorcery points into sorcerer spell slots which last until you take a long rest. Aspect of the moon allows you to skip ever taking a long rest as long as your DM allows it and doesn't use the optional rule from Xanathar's that would give you exhaustion for skipping long rests whether you have aspect of the moon or not. You thus end up with an arbitrarily high number of stockpiled spell slots and perhaps the most contentious build in 5e history.


Spell Sniper requires the spell to make a ranged attack roll. BB and GFB make melee attacks. To be fair- a discussion with the DM can handle all of these issues. It wouldnt be game breaking. Answered and stand corrected.

----------


## ThatDuckGrant

> Spell Sniper requires the spell to make a ranged attack roll. BB and GFB make melee attacks. To be fair- a discussion with the DM can handle all of these issues. It wouldnt be game breaking.


When you cast a spell that requires you to make an attack roll, the spells range is doubled

Did you not bother to actually read it?

----------


## ThatDuckGrant

> Coffeelock, for those who don't know, uses aspect of the moon, warlock short rest spell slots, and sorcerer's font of magic to turn warlock spell slots into sorcery points into sorcerer spell slots which last until you take a long rest. Aspect of the moon allows you to skip ever taking a long rest as long as your DM allows it and doesn't use the optional rule from Xanathar's that would give you exhaustion for skipping long rests whether you have aspect of the moon or not. You thus end up with an arbitrarily high number of stockpiled spell slots and perhaps the most contentious build in 5e history.


This is certainly an interesting theory, and the build definitely could use some more resources. I dont however think there are many cases in which a DM would reward a player for actively not taking long rests.

I did also consider going for higher levels of warlock, both for the short rest regeneration of slots (and thus sorcery points) and for some evocations, but it seemed that having access to the sorcerers level 6 through 9 spells was more important. In many cases, youll only be casting concentration spells in combat, and hopefully shouldnt burn through your slots too fast, therefore you should have a couple slots per day to replenish your 19 sorcery points by level 20. 

Though to be fair, I havent played this character above level 4 (at which point Im having tons of fun with him) so I cant claim to be a total expert on how the resources break out later on.

----------


## Amechra

> I really like these. Also, in the barbarian/monk it says Barb1/Monk5/Barb1? Do you take another barb level or what? I would say the worst thing you lose from having a shield with that build is losing the ability to make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, which is a part of martial arts and lost when holding a shield.


To clarify, that's Barb1/Monk5/Barb+1/Monk+X.

Lizardfolk actually has you partially covered as far as bonus-action attacks go - you can bite someone as a bonus action 1/rest, which also nets you some temporary HP.

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## Makorel

Is it a build if I said being an Aasimar Monk gets you flight for when you need to punch something that's otherwise out of reach as well as some extra damage for that rare guy that's immune to being stunned?

----------


## Trickery

> Is it a build if I said being an Aasimar Monk gets you flight for when you need to punch something that's otherwise out of reach as well as some extra damage for that rare guy that's immune to being stunned?


It's a small build, but it's a build. I've seen the same thing done with Aarakocra.

Proper Monk "builds" are difficult since the class is MAD and really needs its dexterity and wisdom maxed out ASAP. It doesn't help that the class features and most subclass features don't actually give the player any choices to make.

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## Amechra

*Werewolf Detective*
Wildhunt Shifter + Inquisitive Rogue

I just would like to point out how much synergy there is here, because it's _kinda_ bizarre. You want to throw out bonus action Perception checks to find someone with expertise and advantage? You can get that by 3rd level, _without_ spending an Expertise pick on Perception. Oh, and you get free proficiency in Perception and Survival, you skill monkey you.

----------


## Zeikin

> When you cast a spell that requires you to make an attack roll, the spells range is doubled
> 
> Did you not bother to actually read it?


Apologies, I used an online source that has not transcribed the feat correctly. Build works then.

----------


## Story_Optimized

> Looks like its been a while since anyone has added a build here, so Ill give it a go.
> 
> This build focuses on a specific weapon I find extremely fun and eclectic, though difficult to optimize, and Ive named the character based on the weapon. 
> 
> The Shadow Whip
> 
> vHuman Hexblade 1, Shadow Sorcerer X
> Abilities: 8, 14, 16, 8, 10, 16
> ASIs: Spell Sniper (Booming Blade), Cha+4, War Caster, Con+4
> ...


I love this build - I used to play a whip-inquisitor in Pathfinder, and had given up on the build for 5e. Well done!

If I may make a suggestion, I think you can get more mileage out of this build in reverse - Sorc 2 / Hexblade X. The big advantage is that you eventually can apply Eldritch Smite to your booming blades to add an additional 6d8 force damage to your attacks (and knock your Huge or smaller opponents prone). It also enables the decaf coffeelock that another poster mentioned - even with Aspect of the Moon nerfed, a few short rests at the beginning of the day give you an expanded pool of sorcery points to booming blade with; after a short rest, you still have warlock slots you can use for Eldritch smite. Possible build would be Drow, or variant human and spend 8-12 hrs on a long rest, instead of 4-8. It also opens up all of your other pact weapon goodness - magic weapon via an invocation, darkness/devi'ls sight shenanigans, etc.

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## Amechra

A surprisingly decent combo (and definitely not just a result of me trying desperately to find a combo for Ranger and Monk):

*Mr. Disintegration Pistol*

Swiftstride Shifter Ranger 1/Monk (Kensei) 5/Ranger (Hunter) +2/Monk +12
Str 8/Dex 16/Con 13/Int 10/Wis 15/Cha 13

*ASIs*
5th: Crossbow Expert
11th: Sharpshooter
15th: +2 Dex
19th: +2 Dex

*Ranger Options*
Fighting Style: Archery
Hunter's Prey: Horde Breaker

*Spells Known*
At least one of _Ensnaring Strike_, _Hail of Thorns_, or _Hunter's Mark_, otherwise I dunno.

---

So, your strategy here is to pick Hand Crossbows as your first ranged Kensei weapon. They _basically_ let you fight like a normal Monk, except your range is up to 120ft. You'll use Kensei's shot for one level (4th level, to be exact), and _never again_, unless you're running out of ammo for some reason.

Now, the peak of this thing is at 14th level - that's when you pick up Sharpen The Blade. If you dump 3 ki into Sharpen The Blade, you end up with a +3 hand crossbow... which gives you an extra +5 to hit that you can trade away to Sharpshooter. Making 3-4 attacks per round that deal 1d8+16 damage each sounds pretty OK to me...

Honestly, though, you'd _probably_ be better off trading those three levels in Ranger for a 1-level dip in Fighter. Horde Breaker is nice (as long as your enemies cluster a bit, you can match the number of attacks a normal Monk gets in melee), and the spells are pretty decent, but they delay your ASIs and cool Kensei stuff a little _too_ much...

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## Jaryn

Love the generalist celestial warlock. One of those would be a real asset to pretty much any party I think!

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## MeeposFire

> Love the generalist celestial warlock. One of those would be a real asset to pretty much any party I think!


I think the smartest thing the OP did in this thread whether intentional or not was having that be so present at the start because it seems to dray a lot of attention.

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## Tharkun

> I think the smartest thing the OP did in this thread whether intentional or not was having that be so present at the start because it seems to dray a lot of attention.


Note he also has been updating the links in the first few posts to all the builds in here, with short descriptions.  This thread is a real asset and bookmarked for me.

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## Story_Optimized

Everyone says that the Giant Badger is the least of the new Revised Ranger options. Let's try and prove them wrong, shall we?

*The Land Shark*: 



_In Amity, you say yahd._

Ghostwise Halfling Beastmaster Ranger 6, Scout Rogue 14   
16 Dex, 16 Wis, whatever else.
Crossbow Expert (4)
Magic Initiate - _find familiar_ (10)
18 Dex (14)
20 Dex (16)
Sharpshooter (18)

Fighting Style - Two Weapon Fighting

At level 20, as long as you can hear, you can lurk about beneath the surface of the earth, then burst upward through the surface to rain 4 attacks (three from you, one from your badger mount) on an opponent, potentially all with advantage (with _beast bond_, if your first advantage-from-attacking-unseen attack hits, and/or with Help from your owl familiar), for single target damage of (3d6+15 crossbows)+(30 sharpshooter)+(1d6+5 badger)+(7d6 sneak)+(3d6 Hunter's Mark), for *99.3 dpr*. Not too shabby for the lowly badger-rider! 

You also have a familiar to be your eyes while you and your mount are underground in addition to your own blindsense, a few ranger spells, telepathic communication with your team mates, and a pretty solid action economy. If you roll high enough, you can take sharpshooter earlier, or if you have a friend who is willing to loan you their familiar, you can simply skip taking magic initiate. It's not bad, if relatively unremarkable, until you can get a second set of eyes. Even before that though - you are using ranged weapons. You have your familiar ready their movement for your turn, burst through the surface near someone, and then unload.

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## Skylivedk

I was speaking with LudicSavant, and he gave me a challenge:

Make Thief work. In combat. Also, be a back-alley surgeon (Healer's Kit + Healer Feat).

I've gotten to 3 solutions. Sorry for not doing full DPR calculations and the like for them yet; they're all fairly high level. The two DPR builds are comfortably above 150 in most cases; against most common AC a big chunk higher:

First Solution: The ZombieNaught
Half-orc, Long Death Monk 12 / Thief 5 / Zealot Barbarian 3
Role: Non-magic healer, Grappler, Immortal Tank
So this is your good old half-orc, strength monk, barbarian, rogue multi-class. If you play Adventurer's League, change zealot to Bearbarian and you lose some damage and flavour in return for more tankiness.

Biggest drawback? When you roll up to your session with this beauty, the table will sigh and go "not again...".

Starting Stats:
14/14/16/8/14/8
Ending Stats (With Gauntlets of Ogre Strength):
19/14/16/8/20/8
Feats: Healer
Skills: Athletics (Expertise), Stealth (Expertise), Perception, Survival, Knowledge: Religion, Intimidation - the last two are pure flavour, feel free to change.

Background: you were never a quite competent thief and managed to get yourself executed. Several times. Marked by the Kiss of Death, an order of monks took you in. You drank the corporate juice and now you flirt more with Death than Thanos and Deadpool combined. In a matter of seconds, you can fix an artery (and prefer to do so when blood is gushing fountain wide splashes all over). Your combination of Rage and Uncanny Dodge make you neigh unkillable and if you do get to dance with your cold mistress, it takes nothing but a ki-point to stay on your feet. Of course, being a half-orc you have always had a bit of that tendency in you.

In combat you're fast (50 movement speed, Bonus Action Dash) and you grapple with the best of them (Expertise Athletics, Advantage). Your DPR is not fantastic (4 x (1d8+6) + 4d6+2), but you have pretty good CC (Stunning Strike and Hour of Reaping). You have a lot of competition for you bonus action usage, so that's probably the most fun decision making you have: it can be defence, movement speed, healing, attacks, etc etc. Most of the time, you probably want to start off by grabbing backline squishies and pummel them/drag them back to your crew who then proceeds to pummel them.

You jump, no check, 21 feet. With step of the wind, 42 feet. You like to work together with Spiked Growth, Create Bonfire, Firewall, etc etc. Most attacks are reduced 25% efficiency against you.

Leveling this little beauty might be a little hard. I'd suggest Rogue 1, Monk 6, Thief up to 5, Zealot 3, Monk rest.

You NEED Gauntlets of Ogre Strength or Belt of Giant Strength. You love magic short swords. Besides that you are very loin cloth friendly

Second Solution: Simic Hybrid 4 Arms of Grappling Death
Battlemaster 12 / Hexblade 1 / Gloom Stalker 4 / Thief 3 
Role: DPR, Skill monkey. DPR. Grappler. Cheese. Healer.
So this is a DPR and grappling machine, that mixes Battle Master, Gloomstalker and Baleful Curse for first round damage in the range of 200+ using only short rest resources (Hexblade's Curse, and supp dice).

Starting Stats:
16/13/13/8/13/13
Ending Stats:
20/13/14/8/13/13
Feats: Healer, GWM, 2 x Strength ASI, Res: CON (or WIS, depending on starting class)
Spells: Hex, Shield (not super key any of them)
Skills: Athletics (Expertise), Thieves' Tools (Expertise), Perception, Acrobatics, X, Y

Pretty simple concept. In the first round of combat you make 8 attacks (Gloom stalker triggers on both your attack and your action surge). You use Trip and Precision Strike. If/when you trip an enemy, you can grapple them (with one of your extra limbs) and continue to pummel them until they stop resisting. They're probably not getting out against your +17 checks. You can impose disadvantage with Hex if you'd like later (and increase your DPR a bit).
DPR is 191 without advantage and 240 with advantage against AC 19 on level 20. Numbers aren't exact. I'm not sure of how to use Ludic's sheet to calculate the combination of precision (the range is looking to be around 190-278 DPR; latter being with BC up already):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Note: you do not use the SAD part of the Hexblade. You just want the curse for the extra damage and crit-range.

Out of combat you can heal with Healer. I'd consider dropping Healer for one more level in Gloomstalker and picking up Spike Growth. Especially if your DM rules that Spike Growth triggers Baleful Curse.

Third Solution: Simic Hybrid or Half-Elf Swift Blade & Bottle
Eldritch Knight 11 / Hexblade 1 / Sorcerer 5 / Thief 3 
Role: DPR. Control. Cheese. 
This take uses SAD from Hexblade and combines it with more spell-casting to take advantage of the EK level 10 ability. You can also use Alchemist's Fire + Hexblade Curse + Flask of Oil for a steady 1d4+prof+5+dex DoT (damage over time)

Starting Stats as Half-Elf:
9/14/16/8/11/17 OR 10/14/15/8/12/17
Ending Stats:
9/14/16/8/12/20 OR 10/14/16/8/12/20
Feats: Elven Accuracy (CHA), Cha Bump, RES:CON OR RES:WIS, Last Feat: Tavern Brawler (for Alchemist's Fire), Healer or War Caster (I prefer one of the last two)
Spells: Go for control, defence and AoE.
Skills: Athletics (Expertise), Thieves' Tools (Expertise), Perception, Acrobatics, X, Y

Variant: Drop Sorcerer and go Hexblade 5 + EK 12; more interesting with a Short Rest heavy campaign. It gives you better short rest slots and 1 more ASI.

A 3rd variant is to bet less on your spell-casting, use slots mostly for defence and shadow blade. With that in mind you can even go Battlemaster and if you wish, a Simic-Hybrid build for grappling. Shadow Blade focus is better in low magic campaigns, since the spell (especially upcasted) compares more favourably to non-magic items. Also remember, you are not SAD with Shadow Blade.

EDIT: DPR without advantage, with Shadow Blade, Action Surge, Baleful Curse, Alch Fire and Bless, is 130 and with advantage 181.

 Fourth Solution: Spider-Man
 Wood-Elf or Simic Hybrid Battle Master 3 /  Thief 3-6 / Open Hand Monk 9-14 
Role: Disabler. Skill monkey. 

If wood-elf, starting stats: 12 / 16 / 14 / 8 / 16 / 8 or basically anything that ensure 16 DEX and WIS while keeping a decent CON score (you can have 16 and two 13 if you want Resilient or more multiclass options).

We want Monk 9 to be able to run on walls. Bonus Action: Use an Item should work with a grappling hook, but as far as I know NOTHING is written about it in the PHB, so ask your DM. If you want to keep the character very close to Spidey, stop Monk before 10 so you don't become immune to Poison. Otherwise, you have interesting break points all the up to 14 (Diamond Soul). If you do 12/4/4 you get five feats, which is enough for maxing Dex and Wis and grabbing a feat (Mobile and Tavern Brawler are both pretty thematic). 

Level combinations, I've looked at: Open hand 9-11 / Thief 5-6 / Battle Master 3-4 / Gloomstalker 1-3. If good stats: Open Hand 9, Thief 5, Battlemaster 3, Gloomstalker 3 can be fun.

This class should mirror a good Spider-Man feel; you can be anywhere on the battlefield, control fairly well with manoeuvres+stunning strike+open hand manoeuvres. The ranger dip is mostly interesting with high stats and if you want some good burst and a Spider-Sense mirror and Entangle for Webbing equivalents. All in all, I like that build (9/5/3/3) best, but it's ASI starved.

As per usual, a Hexblade dip can also work to boost damage (again depending on stats), but it clogs your bonus action. I personally liked a version with Lore Bard to have cutting words and web, but it's far far from a great idea (and maybe swap the Battlemaster for Warlock to have Grasp of Hadar).

To be completed. - DPR calculations, more tactical descriptions, etc

----------


## Nhorianscum

Not to be facetious but...

Thief 17 with UMD is slightly kinda absolutely broken...

I mean

Minimal abuse here is like Thief 17/Fighter 2/Hexblade 1

Round 1

Hexcurse
7 MM
7MM
7MM

200 flat damage.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

----------


## Amechra

OK, this is a bit ridiculous, and relies on UA and an optional rule in Xanathar's, but...

*Monsieur DeLafleur, Cook Extraordinaire!*
*Build:* V. Human Bard 2
*Niche:* Short-Rest Non-Magical Healer
*ASIs:* Gourmand (UA)

Gourmand gives you proficiency in Cooking Utensils, which are pretty important for this. There is a variant rule in Xanathar's that makes it so feeding a tasty meal to your buddies as part of a short rest gives them +1 HP per HD spent. Gourmand _also_ lets you make meals as part of a long rest that give back two extra HD (gets more useful at higher levels) and advantage on saves vs. disease for 24 hours.

Oh, and you have Song of Rest. Do remember to use that.

Is it a powerful early-level build? No. Is it neat to be able to heal 4 extra HP on a short rest on average by singing and cooking a meal? I submit that _yes_.

*EDIT:* To clarify, I'm talking at an extra 4 HP _on average_ at 2nd level, assuming that everyone spends 1 HD per short rest. Is that a lot? No, not particularly. However, look at how little it cost you to get that little bump - a _single_ tool proficiency. It also translates to "you get the benefits of Durable without the +1 Con" to everyone with a Constitution under 16 in your party. That's nothing to sneeze at.

As for the Gourmand feat itself... it mostly helps out by letting parties be a little freer with their hit-dice without having to worry about being down for the next day. That "extra" 2d12+(1+Con)x2 healing per day on your Barbarian will probably be _greatly_ appreciated.

It's also flavorful as hell, and doesn't really cost you anything other than having to carry around some extra food (unless the party Ranger wants to make themselves useful...)

----------


## Zetakya

> OK, this is a bit ridiculous, and relies on UA and an optional rule in Xanathar's, but...
> 
> *Monsieur DeLafleur, Cook Extraordinaire!*
> *Build:* V. Human Bard 2
> *Niche:* Short-Rest Non-Magical Healer
> *ASIs:* Gourmand (UA)
> 
> Gourmand gives you proficiency in Cooking Utensils, which are pretty important for this. There is a variant rule in Xanathar's that makes it so feeding a tasty meal to your buddies as part of a short rest gives them +1 HP per HD spent. Gourmand _also_ lets you make meals as part of a long rest that give back two extra HD (gets more useful at higher levels) and advantage on saves vs. disease for 24 hours.
> 
> ...


Wasn't there a sourcebook - I can't remember the title, and it may not be for this edition - which had rules for various things you could harvest from dead monsters, including some which had meat with magical effects. If so, you could go with Ranger and have a real Iron Chef vibe going on, where you could hunt down magical beasts to cook the tastiest meals for your party!

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## BarneyBent

> Not to be facetious but...
> 
> Thief 17 with UMD is slightly kinda absolutely broken...
> 
> I mean
> 
> Minimal abuse here is like Thief 17/Fighter 2/Hexblade 1
> 
> Round 1
> ...


How is a Thief casting so many Magic Missiles?

----------


## Amechra

> How is a Thief casting so many Magic Missiles?


I'm guessing that they've got a Wand of Magic Missile, and they're using Action Surge + Fast Hands to use it 3/turn. From there, I'm guessing that they're pulling out and burning through three such wands. That's 27 missiles in one round, for something like 94.5 damage on average before any sort of damage boost.

Of course, they're missing Haste (for another Use An Object action), but hey.

----------


## BarneyBent

> I'm guessing that they've got a Wand of Magic Missile, and they're using Action Surge + Fast Hands to use it 3/turn. From there, I'm guessing that they're pulling out and burning through three such wands. That's 27 missiles in one round, for something like 94.5 damage on average before any sort of damage boost.
> 
> Of course, they're missing Haste (for another Use An Object action), but hey.


Fast Hands cant be used to cast spells through magic objects. A magic item requires the Activate An Item action, which is a different action to the Use An Object action. 

From the DMG - Activate An Item:




> Activating some magic items requires a user to do omething special, such as holding the item and uttering a command word. The description of each item category or individual item details how an item is activated. Certain items use one or more of the following rules for their activation. If an item requires an action to activate, *that action isn't a function of the Use an Item action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item.*


I would imagine a Thief could use Fast Hands to draw the wand, or even throw it to someone, but not actually activate and cast a spell with it.

----------


## Nhorianscum

> Fast Hands cant be used to cast spells through magic objects. A magic item requires the Activate An Item action, which is a different action to the Use An Object action. 
> 
> From the DMG - Activate An Item:
> 
> 
> 
> I would imagine a Thief could use Fast Hands to draw the wand, or even throw it to someone, but not actually activate and cast a spell with it.


The thief capstone allows taking 2 full turns on the first turn of the combat. We're using fast hands to draw items at an accelerated rate for shenanigans but UMD + Thief's reflexes + Surge allows us to drop any 3 spells we can get from any items on turn 1.

I just chose MM wands because A) They're cheap, hilariously so for tier 3+ and B) If your DPR build is worse than MM wand spam in tier 3 it's not an effective DPR build outside of white room. (In this case a +9 str belt +3 weapon thief with a source of haste (potion) can deal 204 damage turn 1 while MM spam with hexcurse hits 199.5 so I'm lowballing)

----------


## Skylivedk

> The thief capstone allows taking 2 full turns on the first turn of the combat. We're using fast hands to draw items at an accelerated rate for shenanigans but UMD + Thief's reflexes + Surge allows us to drop any 3 spells we can get from any items on turn 1.
> 
> I just chose MM wands because A) They're cheap, hilariously so for tier 3+ and B) If your DPR build is worse than MM wand spam in tier 3 it's not an effective DPR build outside of white room. (In this case a +9 str belt +3 weapon thief with a source of haste (potion) can deal 204 damage turn 1 while MM spam with hexcurse hits 199.5 so I'm lowballing)


Yeah, the ZombieNaught is item dependent - more of a flavour than power build though. Otherwise, they aren't, but good point. My own (group's) games don't use most of the DMG items, especially not wands and stat changers, so I have a tendency to miss them in my theory crafting.

My biggest issue with this exercise is seeing how strong Baleful Curse and Gloomstalker dips are for non-magic damage. Even the Spider Man build would probably benefit a lot from it (currently looking at Open Hand monk 9/Battle master 3/Thief 3-5 and then either Lore Bard 5 for the flavorful cutting words or Gloomstalker 3 for entangle and first strike boosts).

----------


## Tharkun

Magic Missles hit simultaneously and only trigger hex once.

----------


## LudicSavant

Hey all, Ive been busy but hopefully Ill find time to post more builds soon! 




> Note he also has been updating the links in the first few posts to all the builds in here, with short descriptions.  This thread is a real asset and bookmarked for me.


:)

Indeed!  And I will continue to update periodically with everything you guys post.




> Magic Missles hit simultaneously and only trigger hex once.


Magic Missiles do not trigger Hex _at all_ actually, as they are not an Attack.

They do however work just fine with Hexblades Curse.

----------


## Amechra

> Fast Hands cant be used to cast spells through magic objects. A magic item requires the Activate An Item action, which is a different action to the Use An Object action. 
> 
> From the DMG - Activate An Item:
> 
> 
> 
> I would imagine a Thief could use Fast Hands to draw the wand, or even throw it to someone, but not actually activate and cast a spell with it.


Oops.

In my defense, those actions are synonyms...

----------


## BarneyBent

> The thief capstone allows taking 2 full turns on the first turn of the combat. We're using fast hands to draw items at an accelerated rate for shenanigans but UMD + Thief's reflexes + Surge allows us to drop any 3 spells we can get from any items on turn 1.
> 
> I just chose MM wands because A) They're cheap, hilariously so for tier 3+ and B) If your DPR build is worse than MM wand spam in tier 3 it's not an effective DPR build outside of white room. (In this case a +9 str belt +3 weapon thief with a source of haste (potion) can deal 204 damage turn 1 while MM spam with hexcurse hits 199.5 so I'm lowballing)


Ah right, gotcha, that makes more sense.

----------


## BarneyBent

> Oops.
> 
> In my defense, those actions are synonyms...


Oh yeah its super confusing. Especially since Activate An Item isnt articulated in the PHB, only the DMG. Youd think theyd just errata it into the PHB for clarity.

----------


## BarneyBent

*The Booming Trickster:*

This build makes use of the Trickery Cleric's Invoke Duplicity and Booming Blade from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide to create a magical rogue that can deliver melee sneak attacks without ever leaving cover. This makes use of the  specific wording of Booming Blade, in which a melee attack with a weapon is part of the cast a spell action, and specific wording of Invoke Duplicity, which allows you to "cast spells as though you were in the duplicate's position". In other words, your duplicate doesn't need to be able to attack or cast spells or anything, rather you assume your duplicate's position for the purposes of casting the spell, which includes making the weapon attack. Note that this reading, though strictly correct by RAW (Sage Advice confirms that the melee weapon attack is "part of the spell's casting"), is highly counter-intuitive and may be seen as contentious/not RAI, so check with your DM before you try this build.

Race: Wood Elf
Class: Trickery Cleric 4, Rogue 4 (Arcane Trickster)
DEX 17, WIS 14, CON 14, the rest don't really matter unless you plan on taking other multiclasses.
ASI: Elven Accuracy (+1 DEX to bring it to 18), +2 DEX

Cantrips:
Booming Blade (AT)
Friends (AT)
Mage Hand (AT)
Guidance (Cleric)
Word of Radiance (Cleric)
Thaumaturgy/whatever other cantrip you want (Cleric)

1st level spells:
Charm Person (Cleric)
Disguise Self (Cleric)
Bless (Cleric)
Healing Word (Cleric)
Detect Magic (Cleric)
Shield (AT)
Find Familiar (AT)
Whatever other AT spells you want

2nd level spells:
Mirror Image (Cleric)
Pass Without Trace (Cleric)
Lesser Restoration (Cleric)
Prayer of Healing (Cleric)
Enhance Ability (Cleric)

For low-risk battles, this trickster operates as you'd expect a typical melee rogue or cleric to. A solid secondary frontliner, the use of Booming Blade plus bonus action disengages makes for a solid opponent that taunts enemies into triggering the Booming Blade rider. Shield and Mirror Image greatly increases durability, a familiar helps get advantage to make the most of Elven Accuracy, we all know Healing Word is a wonderful way to get downed allies up and back in the fight, and if you've got the slots you can always drop a Bless. Fairly straightforward balance of spellcasting utility and Sneak-Attack augmented SCAGtrips for DPR.

In more challenging combats, the trickster Invokes Duplicity on its first turn and finds a place to hide as a Bonus Action. As a Wood Elf, you will find this much easier than most, which is why I chose this race. While Hiding, you can cast Booming Blade with advantage from your duplicate's position without placing yourself at risk. With triple advantage you will rarely miss and often crit, and although you will reveal your location with the attack, your enemy cannot try to close the distance without triggering Booming Blade's rider, and you can hide once again as a Bonus Action. At level 8 you will be doing 2d8+2d6+4 = 20 damage per round with close to 100% hit chance on AC-appropriate enemies while locking your target's movement down, at almost zero risk to your person. Meanwhile, your familiar can provide advantage to allies, and you retain all your other tricks. You can use a similar trick on groups of weaker enemies, using Word Of Radiance through your duplicate as a 5ft radius, resource-less AoE bomb whenever you need it.

Out of combat you are even more useful. As a Rogue, you will likely have expertise in Stealth. Through a combination of Pass Without Trace, Guidance and Blessing Of The Trickster, you will never have to worry about your party (including your clumsy, heavily armored Paladin) failing a stealth roll ever again. Though your Charisma is likely poor, you can combine Disguise Self (or a disguise kit) with advantage on Charisma checks through Friends (short term) or Enhance Ability (longer term) to infiltrate wherever you need to. Expertise in Deception or Persuasion will also assist. And depending on how much your DM lets your duplicate do socially (the definition of a "perfect illusion" is very vague, but by RAW others get no opportunity to detect that it's an illusion), you may not even need to physically be there to infiltrate!

This build does very good DPR (it won't match a fully optimised Sharpshooter/XBE/Elven Accuracy build at the same level, but will match a typical fighter and outstrip a pure-class Rogue handily), it's almost untouchable in combat and is a fantastic social support/infiltrator.

Variants:

*The Paladin of Trickery*

TL;DR more or less the same build, but instead of Rogue, you take Paladin and focus on Booming Smites. You can mix in Sorcerer for quickened or twinned Booming Blades at range. You don't need to hide, you can just stay a few feet out of reach of your enemy and taunt them as you smite them and lock them in place from relative safety. You get higher nova and possibly a Paladin level 6 feature for slightly greater vulnerability and the loss of some utility (especially trading spell slots for smites), but depending on your party makeup it might be a better fit.

*The Flying Trickster*

Race: Anything with flight (e.g. winged Tiefling, Aaracokra, Protector Aasimar)
Stats: depends on the race, but DEX first, then WIS

This variant, instead of bonus action hiding, simply flies away. Note that the wording of Invoke Duplicity applies a 120 ft range limit only when discussing your movement of the duplicate using your bonus action. It says "As a bonus action on your turn you can move the duplicate up to 30 ft, but it must stay within 120 ft of you". There are no consequences listed for you moving greater than 120 ft from the duplicate. This a matter of vague wording in which the strict RAW leaves gaps in the rules that must be filled by the DM, but a more literal DM will rule that you cannot move the duplicate greater than 120 ft away from you, but you can move greater than 120 ft away from it (but probably can no longer move it while at that range). With this ruling, you can bonus action Dash to fly as far away as your eyes can still see while still attacking from the duplicate's position, becoming essentially invulnerable to all but a few possible enemy threats, ducking back into range only if combat moves past your duplicate.

Without this ruling (e.g. either you physically can't move greater than 120 ft away, the duplicate disappears if you move greater than 120 ft away, or you lose all ability to use the duplicate while greater than 120 ft away), you are still likely to be able to position yourself in the air so that you're greater than 150 ft away from any enemy archers while still within 120 ft of the duplicate, achieving most of the previously stated benefits - if the archers are closer than 150 ft, they've basically put themselves in melee range as you can move your duplicate to attack them anyway. Win-win.

----------


## Corran

> Note that this reading, though strictly correct by RAW....


Nope. This isn't the thread to talk about it, but no.

----------


## BarneyBent

> Nope. This isn't the thread to talk about it, but no.


100% works RAW. The melee attack is part of casting the spell by RAW. Its part of the Cast A Spell action. You cannot cast the spell without making the attack (the spell fails, which is terminology used when you have failed to cast a spell). Its an extremely specific circumstance unique to the SCAGtrips.

If Invoke Duplicity said you can use the duplicates position to determine the range of spells you cast, it wouldnt work - it would cause a mismatch between the range of the spell and the reach of your weapon. But it doesnt say that. It says you can cast spells as though you were in the duplicates space, and in this very specific circumstance, that means you also make a weapon attack as though you were in the duplicates space, because it is part of the spells casting. Both range and reach are determined by your position, which you share with the duplicate. Therefore, though its hard to make sense of narratively, you are for all intents and purposes in the duplicates space when you make the attack.

----------


## Corran

> 100% works RAW. The melee attack is part of casting the spell by RAW..


That's not enough. Melee attack will fail unless the enemy is within your weapon reach, so the spell will fail. I've read through the relevant thread. I leave it here for reference and so that anyone interested in further debating this can do so there and not here.

----------


## Nhorianscum

The wording of the spell booming blade states that a mele attack must comprise a portion of the S component.

The duplicate explicitly cannot perform a mele attack. It can perform spell attacks which are distinct.

This is why the duplicate can cast inflict wounds but not BB. Specific trumps general.

----------


## LudicSavant

The Thief often seems to get overestimated or underestimated based on folks, for whatever reason, being confused about what exactly Fast Hands can and cannot do.  So here's a rundown:

*Fast Hands*

Using magic items, including potions, _is not_ covered by the Use an Object action, as clarified in the DMG.Attacking with Alchemists Fire and similar actions _is legal. _ Counterintutively, while you make attacks with these items, you do not use the Attack action while doing so.  Its the Use an Object action.   (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...28407730819072)
Using caltrops, oil, hunting traps, ball bearings, and healers kits (including with the *Healer* feat) are all fair game.Steal an item off an enemy in combat, such as an archers quiver or a casters components.You can don or doff a shield with Fast Hands. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/12/24...-don-a-shield/)Simply getting more "object interactions" per turn.  Close the door _and_ lock or bar it.Use a Climber's Kit to anchor yourself to a wall.  Combines neatly with Second Story Work.Disable a trap, or reset one youve already bypassed to use it against your enemies.Use poisons.You can probably do stuff like throw a bag of flour at an invisible foe, flip a table for instant cover, or topple a bookshelf to create a hazard or difficult terrain. 

The attack with alchemical weapons is worth elaborating on in its own right, because their implementation in 5e is rather obtuse.

If you hit someone with Alchemist's Fire, the burning adds your Dexterity to damage.  Every turn.  (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/04/13...ier-to-damage/)Unlike many bonus action attacks, Fast Hands doesn't require you to take the Attack action first, which is pretty handy when you want to UMD a Wand or something.
One big limitation for the Thief is that you can't sneak attack with alchemical weapons, because Improvised Weapons do not count as Ranged Weapons even if they make Ranged Weapon Attacks.  Clear as mud right?   :Small Tongue:  Alchemical weapons don't add your proficiency to hit unless you have the Tavern Brawler feat.  I am aware of no other way to gain proficiency.Alchemical weapons can eat money pretty fast in the early game (except for oil vials).  And proficiency is a bigger deal later on anyways.  So I'm inclined to hold off on getting Tavern Brawler until after other things like Dex-ups.

----------


## Amechra

Everyone, everyone, we just had a thread arguing about this! Why not go back to happy things, like...

*The True Skill Monkey*
_"Is there anything you_ don't_ know?" "Bovine dentistry, but I'm looking to pick it up next week."_
Half-Elf (_Skill Versatility_) Charlatan Rogue (Scout) 4/Bard (Lore) 6/Rogue +2/Bard +8
*Role:* Maximum skill monkey
Str 8/Dex 16/Con 12/Int 10/Wis 14/Cha 16

*ASIs:*
4th: Skilled
8th: Prodigy
14th: +2 Dex
18th: +2 Dex

*Level Range*
*New Skills Learned*
*Tool Proficiencies*
*Expertise Picks*

1st - 2nd
Athletics, Acrobatics, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand
Disguise Kit, Forgery Kit, Thieves' Tools
2

3rd
Nature, Survival

2

4th
Medicine, Performance, Stealth

2

5th - 6th
Arcana
Any instrument
2

7th
History, Investigation, Religion

4

8th - 11th
Animal Handling
Any tool
5

12th - 15th
_No more left!_

7

16th - 20th
_No more left!_

9



Let's break that down, shall we? By the time you've hit 8th level, you are proficient in _all_ skills. All of them. You also have 9 Expertise picks over 20 levels, thanks to Prodigy - I'd use _at least_ one of them on Athletics to cover for your wimpy Strength score. In terms of other skill-monkey features, you have Jack of All Trades at 6th level granting you half-proficiency with stuff like Initiative rolls and the like, as well as the always helpful Cutting Words (comes online at 7th level) and your brand-new shiny capstone (Peerless Skill - yes, it was delayed by _that much_.)

*Some Alternatives:*
This build only really works for Half-Elves, because they're the _only_ race that grants proficiency in two skills that has access to a second proficiency-granting feat (the other choice being Squat Nimbleness, and there aren't any Small two-skilled races). You can make up this deficit if you _really_ need to by dipping a level of Ranger (+1 skill from their list) or Cleric (Arcana grants Arcana, Nature grants Nature (duh), and Order grants Intimidation or Persuasion).

If you're willing to take those dips, Changelings, Kenku, Lizardfolk, Shifters, or Tabaxi are interesting alternate racial choices. Changelings and Kenku especially, since you'd have some interesting skill-monkey-ish racial features. Alternatively, you could just go Variant Human and pick up Prodigy at 1st level...
*
Knowledge Clerics:*
Knowledge Clerics are an interesting alternative that I just couldn't figure out a way to fit - they get two bonus proficiencies that are automatically Expertise picks, a CD that lets them pick up a proficiency on the fly, and a couple more languages.

*Warlocks:*
If you're willing to dip two levels of Warlock, you can pick up proficiency in Deception and Persuasion (Beguiling Influence). I don't think it's worth it for this kind of build, though.

----------


## Tallytrev813

Gotta tell you, OP.

Im playing the Original Post Arcana Cleric right now in a campaign and loving it. Very fun build, allows you to do a lot in combat.

----------


## Amechra

> The Thief often seems to get overestimated or underestimated based on folks, for whatever reason, being confused about what exactly Fast Hands can and cannot do.  So here's a rundown:
> 
> *Fast Hands*
> 
> Using magic items, including potions, _is not_ covered by the Use an Object action, as clarified in the DMG.Attacking with Alchemists Fire and similar actions _is legal. _ Counterintutively, while you make attacks with these items, you do not use the Attack action while doing so.  Its the Use an Object action.   (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...28407730819072)
> Using caltrops, oil, hunting traps, ball bearings, and healers kits (including with the *Healer* feat) are all fair game.Steal an item off an enemy in combat, such as an archers quiver or a casters components.You can don or doff a shield with Fast Hands. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/12/24...-don-a-shield/)Simply getting more "object interactions" per turn.  Close the door _and_ lock or bar it.Use a Climber's Kit to anchor yourself to a wall.  Combines neatly with Second Story Work.Disable a trap, or reset one youve already bypassed to use it against your enemies.Use poisons.You can probably do stuff like throw a bag of flour at an invisible foe, flip a table for instant cover, or topple a bookshelf to create a hazard or difficult terrain. 
> 
> The attack with alchemical weapons is worth elaborating on in its own right, because their implementation in 5e is rather obtuse.
> 
> ...


Wait...

The way I read it, a flask of oil is _not_ a one-and-done damage boost. You hit someone with it, they take +5 fire damage for the next minute.

So a third level Thief can open combat by tossing a flask of oil as an action and a flask of alchemist's fire as a bonus action, making some poor victim take 1d4+5+Dex fire damage per turn until they save. ~10 fire damage a round is nothing to sneeze at.

----------


## BarneyBent

> That's not enough. Melee attack will fail unless the enemy is within your weapon reach, so the spell will fail. I've read through the relevant thread. I leave it here for reference and so that anyone interested in further debating this can do so there and not here.


Except that Invoke Duplicity modifies your reach for weapon attacks that are part of casting the spell. You make the attack as if in the duplicates space. Therefore, your reach is determined by the duplicates position, not your own. Thats the unique thing about Invoke Duplicity compared to Distant Metamagic or Spell Sniper - it doesnt modify the spells range, it modifies where you cast it from, which includes where you make the attack (as part of the spells casting) from.




> The wording of the spell booming blade states that a mele attack must comprise a portion of the S component.
> 
> The duplicate explicitly cannot perform a mele attack. It can perform spell attacks which are distinct.
> 
> This is why the duplicate can cast inflict wounds but not BB. Specific trumps general.


The duplicate cannot cast make spell attacks, it cannot cast spells, it actually isnt said that it can do anything at all, and it doesnt need to. You are casting the spell. You are doing everything from the duplicates position.

Replace duplicate with inanimate cube of light in Invoke Duplicitys description. It works exactly the same. You are using the duplicate as the point from which you cast the spell, thats it.

----------


## Skylivedk

> Wait...
> 
> The way I read it, a flask of oil is _not_ a one-and-done damage boost. You hit someone with it, they take +5 fire damage for the next minute.
> 
> So a third level Thief can open combat by tossing a flask of oil as an action and a flask of alchemist's fire as a bonus action, making some poor victim take 1d4+5+Dex fire damage per turn until they save. ~10 fire damage a round is nothing to sneeze at.


Yes - and you can add proficiency bonus from Baleful Curse (which I hope I mentioned on the second or third variant).

----------


## Nhorianscum

> Except that Invoke Duplicity modifies your reach for weapon attacks that are part of casting the spell. You make the attack as if in the duplicates space. Therefore, your reach is determined by the duplicates position, not your own. Thats the unique thing about Invoke Duplicity compared to Distant Metamagic or Spell Sniper - it doesnt modify the spells range, it modifies where you cast it from, which includes where you make the attack (as part of the spells casting) from.
> 
> 
> 
> The duplicate cannot cast make spell attacks, it cannot cast spells, it actually isnt said that it can do anything at all, and it doesnt need to. You are casting the spell. You are doing everything from the duplicates position.
> 
> Replace duplicate with inanimate cube of light in Invoke Duplicitys description. It works exactly the same. You are using the duplicate as the point from which you cast the spell, thats it.


I would estimate that you are (conservatively) misreading 100% of those abilities.

----------


## 8wGremlin

When you cast booming blade you make a melee attack as part of that spell. With the limit of the reach of the weapon. 

So where ever you are standing when you cast that spell is the point of origin for the melee attack. 

Agreed, good. 

Now the duplicate states that your point of origin can be you or the point at where the duplicate is. 

This if the duplicate is 15 feet in front of you for all intents and purposes you are effectively there. 

So your melee attack would use its point as the point of its reach. 

Its one of the weirder aspects of dnd but its Raw.

----------


## Tallytrev813

> When you cast booming blade you make a melee attack as part of that spell. With the limit of the reach of the weapon. 
> 
> So where ever you are standing when you cast that spell is the point of origin for the melee attack. 
> 
> Agreed, good. 
> 
> Now the duplicate states that your point of origin can be you or the point at where the duplicate is. 
> 
> This if the duplicate is 15 feet in front of you for all intents and purposes you are effectively there. 
> ...


Same thing thats been said 100 times already.

Using your logic - the RAW indicate your spell origin changes, but it doesnt indicate your melee weapon attack origin changes. 

The two can be tied together without having the same point of origin.

Maybe my logic is wrong, but i haven't seen anything that's convinced me otherwise.

----------


## BarneyBent

> I would estimate that you are (conservatively) misreading 100% of those abilities.


Im the one directly quoting the rules. Please indicate where Im misreading them.




> Same thing thats been said 100 times already.
> 
> Using your logic - the RAW indicate your spell origin changes, but it doesnt indicate your melee weapon attack origin changes. 
> 
> The two can be tied together without having the same point of origin.
> 
> Maybe my logic is wrong, but i haven't seen anything that's convinced me otherwise.


RAW explicitly says you can cast spells as if you were in the duplicates space. Not that the point of origin for the spell changes to the duplicates space. Not that the range of the spell changes. That YOUR POSITION, for the purposes of casting the spell and all that entails, changes. 

So, when you make the melee attack, your position is, for the purposes of making the attack, your duplicates.

You can rule that its nonsensical. Thats fine. I said at the start of the build, a DM may rule it as not RAI - Invoke Duplicity is so vaguely worded that it practically begs DMs to overlay their own interpretations (see my Flying variant and the 120 ft rule). I would never blame any DM for not letting it work.

But for the purposes of casting the spell, youre in the duplicates space. The melee attack is part of casting the spell. Therefore, you are in the duplicates space for the purpose of making the melee attack.

Again, if it only changed the point of origin for the spell, youd be 100% correct. But it doesnt. It changes your position, which affects not only the point of origin of the spell, but anything else involved in its casting, including (in this instance) the melee attack with a weapon.

----------


## Amechra

Guys. This is the thread for fun and surprising builds. This is the thread for discussing whether or not Channel Duplicity lets you use the SCAGtrips at range. Can we keep them separate?

Please and thank you.

---

At this point, I'd like to challenge the thread to make an effective DPR/gish build that uses neither the SCAGtrips nor Hexblade's Curse. For an extra challenge, no Paladin.

----------


## BarneyBent

> Guys. This is the thread for fun and surprising builds. This is the thread for discussing whether or not Channel Duplicity lets you use the SCAGtrips at range. Can we keep them separate?
> 
> Please and thank you.


Fair. Didnt mean to derail.




> At this point, I'd like to challenge the thread to make an effective DPR/gish build that uses neither the SCAGtrips nor Hexblade's Curse. For an extra challenge, no Paladin.


Fighter 2/Bladesinger 14
Race: High Elf
DEX 16, INT 16, CON 14
ASI: DEX+2, DEX+2, INT+2 (or grab a headband of intellect and boost CON, take Elven Accuracy, whatever).
Fighting Style: GWF
Weapon: Double Scimitar
Base AC with no magic armor: 18 (Mage Armor)
At level 16 youd expect to have some magic armour so boost that to probably 20 minimum.
AC bonus from Bladesong: +4
Shield: +5.
Haste: +2

Effective AC: somewhere between 22 and 31 depending on spells.

First round, Bonus action Bladesong, Haste, then make a melee attack, then Action Surge and make two melee attacks. 6d4+15 (DEX)+12 (INT) + 3 (average GWF bonus). 45 DPR before hit chance, lets say you hit 65% of the time (pretty typical against standard AC monsters of appropriate CR), so about 31.

Subsequent rounds you make four attacks, 3 with 2d4 dice and 1 with 1d4 dice, for 7d4+20+16+3.5, about 57 DPR before hit chance, so about 37 overall.

By comparison, a straight Fighter at the same level with a Greataxe does 3d12+15+2 (GWF)=35 DPR before hit chance, so about 24. GWM adds 30 damage, but reduces hit chance to about 40%, so thats 27. Then youve got the chance at a bonus action attack, lets be generous and say 50% of the time, so another 1d12+5+1+10 = 22.5 at 40% hit chance = 9 damage half the time, so lets add 4.5 damage to that 27 to come up with an average DPR of 31.5.

Granted, the Fighter has more HP, and against low AC enemies the GWM damage will see more use. But youve got a higher effective AC when you factor in Shield spell and Haste, when you get hit by something that Shield cant stop you can instead use your reaction to reduce the damage by expending spell slots, and youre a level 14 wizard with everything that comes with.

If you cant use a Double Scimitar, dual wield two scimitars instead. Its a lower DPR option (works out to be about 25 first round, 32 subsequent rounds) and limits some spellcasting after you draw the second scimitar (partially offset by a Ruby of the War Mage), but still very good. Other options include Belt of Giant Strength and PAM instead of bumping DEX quite so high.

----------


## Klorox

@BarneyBent, unfortunately, you cant take Shield and Find Familiar as an AT, at least not at level 4. Only one spell can be from outside illusion and enchantment at that level.

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## BarneyBent

> @BarneyBent, unfortunately, you cant take Shield and Find Familiar as an AT, at least not at level 4. Only one spell can be from outside illusion and enchantment at that level.


Bah crap youre right. I was thinking ahead but then scaled back the build to level 8 for simplicity and cut down the spells known to the must haves (for AT) but forgot to account for that.

Id probably favour Find Familiar before Shield. Take Shield later when enemy hit bonuses start getting higher and that extra 5 AC becomes invaluable. Youve still got Mirror Image if needed.

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## Waazraath

> At this point, I'd like to challenge the thread to make an effective DPR/gish build that uses neither the SCAGtrips nor Hexblade's Curse. For an extra challenge, no Paladin.


Fighter (EK) 12 / (any full caster) using Shadow Blade. Make 3 attacks with a 4d8 shadow blade. Add cleric for spirtual weapon bonus action damage, Sorcerer for bonus action spells, or whisper bard for extra psychic damage....


More info here: 
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...75&postcount=2 (second build)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...5&postcount=19

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## AdAstra

> Fighter (EK) 12 / (any full caster) using Shadow Blade. Make 3 attacks with a 4d8 shadow blade. Add cleric for spirtual weapon bonus action damage, Sorcerer for bonus action spells, or whisper bard for extra psychic damage....
> 
> 
> More info here: 
> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...75&postcount=2 (second build)
> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...5&postcount=19


I've always thought Eldritch Knight 11/Tempest Cleric 9 could be a fun combo. Cast Shadow Blade, wade into the fray, attacking everyone in range, then next turn, attack three more targets, and Action Surge to cast a maximized Destructive Wave, making everyone around you save for 47.5 average damage, at disadvantage for everyone you hit.

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## LudicSavant

I tend to refer to EK/caster builds that use Shadow Blade as "Soulknife" builds.  They have a lot of potential.  And one of the fun things about it is that there's so many combinations that work.  Bard, Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, all go well off of EK 12.

For the EK / Cleric route, the Death Domain is a stand-out choice.  The Channel Divinity essentially lets you tack a considerable chunk of nigh-unmissable damage onto your already-formidable Action Surge.  With 8 levels in it, you're basically boosting your Action Surge DPR by a straight 42, just from the Channel Divinity.

Other domains that fit with an EK are Tempest (mostly for the AoE options), War (lets you get a BA attack with a Shadow Blade, and turn misses into hits), and maybe Forge (less relevant if you're expecting to get magic armor at tier 3+).

As an aside, it's also possible to go BM 11 / Fullcaster 9 and end up with 5th level spells.

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## Citadel97501

Has anyone taken a look at mixing Warlock with Wizard: Warmage dips for some interesting generalist builds?  I was thinking that taking that 2 level dip into wizard provides a lot for the Celestial Warlock Generalist from the 1st page of this forum, especially with a paladin in your party as that could definitely crank out some bonuses to your saves.

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## bendking

If I may throw in a request, it would be nice to see an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight (or both) build posted :)

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## Finieous

I made an EK/Cleric five years ago! It was great fun and devastatingly effective even before all the new toys came out. I'd build it a little differently now, but it's fantastic and painless to level up.

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## GorogIrongut

Behold Arcie the ridiculously lucky Arcane Trickster  (Reinhart Coralis MacRory, I'm curious to see who knows where that comes from).

Stout Halfling  for the +1 Con and Dwarf-like Poison resistance.  You want to get your hands on a pair of Night Vision Goggles as soon as possible.  This starts you off with Lucky, Brave, Nimble & Stout Resistance.  All winners.

Point buy:
Str    8
Dex  15 +2 for racials= 17   +1 at level 4= 18
Con  13 +1 for racials= 14   
Int    14
Wis   12
Cha   10
8 hp
Skills: Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth (expertise), Arcana, Investigation & Perception (expertise)


*Level 1*    Rogue: 10hp, Expertise, d6 Sneak Attack & Thieves Cant
*Level 2*    Rogue: d8+2 HP and Cunning Action
*Level 3*    Rogue: d8+2 HP, 2d6 Sneak Attack & Arcane Trickster (Mage Hand Legerdemain)
Spells: Mage Hand/Light/Booming Blade & Find Familiar (unlimited spell)/Disguise Self/Sleep (soon to be swapped out)
*Level 4*    Rogue: d8+2 HP, Spell: Silent Image & and ASI (Squat Nimbleness gives you a +1 to dex to even it out.  It bumps up your speed from 25' to 30'.  It also gives you acrobatics.  The group I play in rule that if you already have the skill, then you get expertise in it.  If your group is different, then you have a spare skill to pass around.  This also gives you advantage on any escape grappling checks.  This is a racial feat in Xanathar's.
*Level 5*    Rogue: d8+2hp, 3d6 Sneak Attack & Uncanny Dodge 
*Level 6*    Rogue: d8+2hp & Expertise.  I would put this in Investigation and another of your choice depending on how you want to play.
*Level 7*    Rogue: d8+2hp, 4d6 Sneak Attack, Evasion & you get 2nd level Spells (4/2).  This is an important level as your restriction to Enchantment/Illusion spells gets good with level 2 spells.  You have access to Invisibility/Mirror Image/Phantasmal Force/Shadow Blade/Suggestion.  Swap out Sleep and pick the two of these spells that best suit your play style.
*Level 8*    Rogue: d8+2hp, Another Unlimited spell, and an ASI.  The unlimited spell could be Shield/Absorb Elements from level 1.  It could be something as simple as Dragon's Breath, Misty Step or Web from level 2.  It all depends on how you play.  You have many choices with your ASI.  18 dex is respectable but 20 is even better.  This character is meant to be lucky, so really there are only 2 choices.  Go with the obvious and get the feat Lucky to complement your Halfling Luck.  Or return to Xanathar's and help the party by getting Bountiful Luck.  I don't have to explain the benefits of Lucky.  It matches nicely with character and is a nice power boost.  The less obvious choice is to go with Bountiful Luck.  The ability to expend your reaction and save a party member from disaster can be crucial.  The same goes for those moments when you have to hit and your paladin rolls a 1.  This doesn't wear out unlike Lucky.  You end up lending your luck to your teammates.  I plan on getting both in the long run.
*Level 9*    Wizard: d6+2.  This helps plug all those spellcasting holes from being only an Arcane Trickster.  You get 3 new cantrips (Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation,Toll the Dead).  You get a spell book with 6 spells in it (plugging holes with Shield, Detect Magic,Identify, Guiding Hand, Healing Elixir, Snare).  Now you can cast rituals.  Throw in a little Arcane Recovery and this is nice.  Yes... you lose a bit of Rogue progression, but there is a pay off for the character build in just a second.
*Level 10*   Wizard: d6+2, 2 spells for the Spell Book (Mage Armour & Comprehend Languages).  I keep picking spells that are rituals and give out of combat utility.  This makes the character an insane skill monkey while simultaneously avoiding the potential pitfall of only having 14 in Intelligence.  If you play this character correctly, the whole party will love you.  Most parties check the wallets when they see a rogue coming.  This one can steal, if necessary... but does so many things to strengthen the party without stealing the limelight.
At level 2 in Wizard, you choose to specialize in Divination.  You now have access to the Portent ability.  You can now roll 2 d20's and substitute them for you, your party or the opponents' rolls depending on what you roll.  This means you're leaning further into the 'Lucky' concept for the character.  If necessary you have the ability to cause someone to auto fail or auto succeed... for your benefit.



This is essentially the point I've taken this character to.  Admittedly, the DM allowed us to start off with a free racial feat.  So I already have Squat Nimbleness, Bountiful Luck and Lucky.  But the pathway is pretty much the same.  My intention is to ride the utility of the Rogue Class and Arcane Trickster Sub class through to level 20.  I will still get 3 more ASI's, a hefty sneak attack and loads of sneaky shenanigans.

p.s. I haven't really explained all the potential tricks you can pull with the Arcane Trickster as it has been said many times elsewhere and applies equally here.  The concept of the character is to get as many 'luck-bending' effects packed into one character for the benefit of yourself and the rest of the party.  Throw in ritual magic and the skill monkey framework and you should be able to do something in every situation without stealing anyone else' thunder.

----------


## Xaotiq1

> Behold Arcie the ridiculously lucky Arcane Trickster  (Reinhart Coralis MacRory, I'm curious to see who knows where that comes from).


Villains By Necessity? Even if I'm wrong, it's a good read. Love these builds as I am a 3.5 grognard being brought up to speed by the rest of my group.

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## GorogIrongut

> Villains By Necessity? Even if I'm wrong, it's a good read.


You my friend win the prize!  One of the better fantasy reads out there.

----------


## Sparky McDibben

> Next build will probably be one of the following:
> 
> - A build I've taken to referring to as "the soulknife." A stealthy, unarmored frontliner Eldritch Knight / War Wizard build that's durable, sticky, high DPR, lots of utility, and about as gear-independent as it gets.  They basically summon all of their armaments using abilities like Mage Armor and Shadow Blade.  One of the upshots of using Mage Armor is that you can get the AC of plate while using a Dex build, and retain full stealth capabilities.  Combines great with the "Shape Element" and Minor Illusion cantrips since they don't have Verbal components.
> 
> - A Shadar-Kai Sharpshooter Samurai, because I got asked about it earlier.  A simple yet very reliable DPR core for any party that scales incredibly well with buffs/party synergy.  I consider Samurai to be one of the Fighter subclasses with the highest potential (along with Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight), and the post would highlight why along with DPR analysis and the like.
> 
> - A Shifter Inquisitor of the Silver Flame.  A blaster/hunter Cleric from Eberron that brings a lot of damage and detection abilities.
> 
> If any of those sound interesting lemme know.


Would love to see any of these still, if you've got the time, Ludic. Love how much effort you put into making them, so if you don't, that's cool too. 9 great builds are better than most other posters can put out!

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## Klorox

> Behold Arcie the ridiculously lucky Arcane Trickster  (Reinhart Coralis MacRory, I'm curious to see who knows where that comes from).
> 
> Stout Halfling  for the +1 Con and Dwarf-like Poison resistance.  You want to get your hands on a pair of Night Vision Goggles as soon as possible.  This starts you off with Lucky, Brave, Nimble & Stout Resistance.  All winners.
> 
> Point buy:
> Str    8
> Dex  15 +2 for racials= 17   +1 at level 4= 18
> Con  13 +1 for racials= 14   
> Int    14
> ...


I love this! Im currently playing an AT, and I have the same stats and skills as you. My guy is an eladrin though, and Im only at level 4. 

Anyway, Im thinking of a similar progression as yours, and seeing you map it out looks great. Theres no wizard or sorcerer in my party, and Im really looking forward to some kind of wizard dip for my character in the future. Conjuration, divination, and bladesong all offer great level 2 benefits. 

Again, thank you for some guidance.

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## Evaar

Hey Ludic, how would you adjust the Arcana Cleric Frontliner to function if Variant Human was off the table as a race option? Just skip Magic Initiate and pray for a strength-booster?

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## Tallytrev813

> Hey Ludic, how would you adjust the Arcana Cleric Frontliner to function if Variant Human was off the table as a race option? Just skip Magic Initiate and pray for a strength-booster?


Just take Magic Initiate at level 4.
Play a Human, a Hill Dwarf, a Wood Elf, etc. The double booming blade wont come on line until level 8 is the drawback.

----------


## Dualswinger

Playing around with a fun idea. Living sun celestial Sorcerer. A character whose magic actually is powered by nuclear fission. 

Basically an Aasimar that at some points will let the light inside out by quick casting spirit guardians and activating radiant consumption. 

Other fun fluffy spells are obviously sunbeam and sunburst, but also sickening radiance (refluff as reaction to overpowering heat), minute meteors or even sanctuary (too blinded to attack)

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## Trickery

Here's one I wrote up. Hopefully no one else already posted something similar. This is a comprehensive take on the ever-popular repelling blast Sorlock, but with some enhancements.

YEET
_The halfling who got tired of people throwing him, so he decided to turn the tables._

Concept is to chuck enemies at high velocities. This is a focused _controller_ build with an emphasis on moving enemies around the battlefield and forcing them out of position, and the build does decent damage to boot. This build works great if you have an ally who can lay down hazards that do damage whenever a creature moves through them, such as Spike Growth. 

*Basic requirements*:
Halfling (lightfoot for CHA)Warlock (any) 2+ (hexblade is ideal for the armor and shield) 
Repelling Blast, Agonizing Blast Sorcerer (any) 4+
Feat: Crossbow ExpertQuicken, Careful (so we can avoid our allies with persistent effects)
*What you do*: throw things. Throw all of the things. This is your basic round-to-round bread and butter.
Repelling Blast has no save. Targets of any size are forced to move.Push creatures into things, such as traps or hazards or their own alliesCrossbow expert allows eldritch blast in melee range without disadvantage, so you can throw the target exactly the direction you want to. Get into melee, position yourself, then YEET in the desired direction.Halfling Nimbleness: you can move through the space of larger creatures. This allows you to move beneath a creature, point at their underside, and cast Eldritch Blast to *YEET them straight into the air*.
Also note that, due to this feature, you can position yourself at exactly the correct angle to launch foes in diagonal directions. If you need to throw someone over a wall, you probably can.The ability to throw targets in any direction, including upward, is this build's primary boon over a normal Sorlock.Quicken allows you to throw eldritch blast twice in one turn for up to *forty feet of forced movement* at level 6, and more at higher levels.
*Bonus points*
You're a Sorlock, meaning you can turn unused short rest spell slots into sorcery points to fuel metamagic and restore your Sorcerer spell slots.You're an annoying halfling.
*Some recommended spell choices for flavor*:
Lightning LureGustGust of WindThunderwaveArmor of AgathysCloud of Daggers (sample AoE to push creatures into)
For a different flavor, take Fog Cloud and then continuously push creatures into it with EB so they can't leave. You can hold an Eldritch Blast and release it in response to an enemy exiting the cloud. 

*Scalable*: there are plenty of higher level sorcerer spells that create AoE effects nobody wants to be pushed into. Stinking Cloud and Sickening Radiance are two examples. Careful works well with these and is generally great for a controller-style character, which you are. You can Quicken one of these behind an enemy and then blast that enemy into it.

*Customizable*: works with any combination of warlock pacts, warlock patrons, sorcerous origins, and other spell choices. Want to be a celestial warlock or divine soul and tell enemies to get their filthy hands off of your people? You can. Want to be a small Jedi wielding a magical Hexblade sword and using the force? That works, complete with force damage. Want to pick up stinking cloud and similar spells and refluff all of this as lethal flatulence? I mean, sure

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## Fable Wright

Comments, critiques, and things I forgot to add would be greatly appreciated!

*Tesla Coils*
The ideal of the blaster is always the pursuit of maximum damage with minimum risk to the party.

How electrifying!


Gnome Tempest Cleric 2/Evocation Wizard 18
Stats (Point Buy): 16 Int / 14 Dex / 13 Wis / 13 Con / 13 Cha / 8 Str

ASIs: 20 Int, Resilient (+1 Con), +1 Wis/+1 Cha.

To increase synergy with Magic Jar, 16 Int / 14 Cha / 13 Wis / 13 Con / 12 Dex / 8 Str is also viable.

*Spoiler: Race Choice*
Show

Our race is gnome, for a few reasons.

First, the ability scores are right where we want them. +2 Intelligence and +1 Dexterity mean we don't need any more ASIs than necessary to max int. +1 Dex allows you to meet multiclassing requirements and keep 14 Dex to get the most out of Medium Armor Proficiency.

Second, Small Size. This is a surprising boon in many casesbeing able to hide in your (racially-granted!) Minor Illusion does a lot for your survivability. More importantly, however, is your 40lb weight. Most people will be able to carry you around in the case you become unconscious, which will be rather important later on.

Third, Gnome Cunning. Advantage on Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saving throws give you great chances to resist some of the nastiest effects in the Monster Manual... and more importantly, your own spells. Advantage against your own Contact Other Plane and Magic Jar effects, allowing you to abuse them for value too risky for most PCs.

There's a few other benefits to Forest Gnome, including an extra cantrip and the opportunity to use your higher-than-average Charisma and your ability to communicate with small animals. As any druid character can tell you, a fly on the wall can be an excellent spy.


The build is about the maximum abuse of two abilities: Overchannel and Destructive Wrath.

Throughout your entire career, Destructive Wrath provides an enormous damage booster that puts you head and shoulders above most other blasters. At level 5, you can drop a Shatter spell that deals 32 damage in a party-friendly AoE. While it's a fraction of the spread of Fireball, it's a far less resisted type, and hits for 4 more points of damage on averagewhich keeps you on par with the Red Dragonblood Sorcerer's Fireball at level 6, with all the benefits of Sculpt Spell.

At level 7, you get the ability to maximize Lightning Bolt, hitting enemies for 48 damage apiece, and skipping allies in the line. For reference, that's 3 points higher than the damage of the 6th level spell Chain Lightning, and nearly 1/3rd more damage than Cone of Cold. Once per short rest, but 2-4 levels before anyone else in the party. To say nothing of your later ability to deal 320 damage with a single casting of Chain Lightning.

The build really comes into its own, however, at level 16, with the introduction of Overchannel and access to both Magic Jar and Simulacrum. The combo is simple, really: Your Simulacrum casts Magic Jar. Carry the jar around with you until you find a humanoid enemy that seems durable enough to take a few hits, then have your Simulacrum possess it, and presto! A whole sack of extremely disposable HP to use while your Simulacrum can spam every spell in its loadout at maximum damage. For a maximum nova round, your simulacrum should have an 8th level slot left over from your preparations, and a Destructive Wrath that it has no business using when Overchannel would do. A single Maximized level 8 Chain Lightning can deal 85 damage to six targetsand you can follow up to do the same. That's *1,020* damage over six targets at level 16.

If your simulacrum's body is destroyed, with a 14 Charisma and your Cleric-based Proficiency in Cha saves, it has a 75% chance of popping straight back into the jar safe and sound, assuming it couldn't bail out earlier in its turn. You're free to play with your Simulacrum's tactics as well, of course, though it is a bit risky. Then again, if someone in the party has Revivify on hand, what's the risk? It's not like your real body needs anything more than its one HP to use Magic Jar effectively, right?

The real fun comes at level 19, at the very end of your career, when you gain access to _Shapechange_ and _Wish_. With Wish, of course, you can obtain the benefits of the Find Greater Steed spell, and share the benefits of Shapechange with it. And your Simulacrum is able to cast as well...

To cut a long story short, 240+12d10 Lightning damage from three Adult Blue Dragons breath weapons is not _technically_ the highest damage you can do with your 9th level slots, but it _is_ cathartic beyond compare.

----------


## n00b

What about a build dedicated to making a enemy fail saving throws?  Is there anything beyond your basic Divination Wiz 2/Lore Bard X?

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## Nhorianscum

> What about a build dedicated to making a enemy fail saving throws?  Is there anything beyond your basic Divination Wiz 2/Lore Bard X?


WM17/Whatever 3 (Spitballing on this one)

Bend Luck + Heightened is a thing wild magic does. -8.5 unoptimized on a dc19 save is close to autofail territory. With standard issue save boosters available via treasure points our save DC in tier 4 should look more like 25 giving us an "effective DC" of 33ish in AL. (Outside of AL at a random drops table our DC can be assumed to be even higher as books drop with enough frequency to push 30 Cha. It's dumb and I'll just go with AL numbers for consistancy)

I'm fudging a bit for simplicity but at this point our spells just stick as nothing is packing full resists of +13 and nothing is packing full  +8 & advantage. Assuming frequent surges we can do this all day every day with 3 levels open for not-save charOP.

No idea how to burn those open levels on amping saves in a relevant manner. I'd just burn em on bulk and spells known personally.

----------


## Story_Optimized

> Comments, critiques, and things I forgot to add would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> The build really comes into its own, however, at level 16, with the introduction of Overchannel and access to both Magic Jar and Simulacrum. The combo is simple, really: Your Simulacrum casts Magic Jar. Carry the jar around with you until you find a humanoid enemy that seems durable enough to take a few hits, then have your Simulacrum possess it, and presto! A whole sack of extremely disposable HP to use while your Simulacrum can spam every spell in its loadout at maximum damage. For a maximum nova round, your simulacrum should have an 8th level slot left over from your preparations, and a Destructive Wrath that it has no business using when Overchannel would do. A single Maximized level 8 Chain Lightning can deal 85 damage to six targetsand you can follow up to do the same. That's *1,020* damage over six targets at level 16.
> 
> If your simulacrum's body is destroyed, with a 14 Charisma and your Cleric-based Proficiency in Cha saves, it has a 75% chance of popping straight back into the jar safe and sound, assuming it couldn't bail out earlier in its turn. You're free to play with your Simulacrum's tactics as well, of course, though it is a bit risky. Then again, if someone in the party has Revivify on hand, what's the risk? It's not like your real body needs anything more than its one HP to use Magic Jar effectively, right?



I love this build, thanks for posting! I do have one concern about the Magic Jar - Simulacrum combo - it may be a little GM-dependent as to whether or not the Simulacrum has a soul to use for possession. It's not in the spells' descriptions either way as far as I can tell, but the process to make a simulacrum leverages another being's detritus; I could see DMs ruling that either way. 
Still, that doesn't really affect the overall build, which looks both fun and effective. Well done!

----------


## LudicSavant

> Would love to see any of these still, if you've got the time, Ludic. Love how much effort you put into making them, so if you don't, that's cool too.


Hey!  Rest assured, I will be posting more when I have time to sit down and crank stuff out (and don't have too many other projects begging my attention at the time).   :Small Smile:

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## Spacehamster

Curious how you would build dark/death knight type character? Multi class allowed ofc. Been thinking Oathbreaker 7 Necromancer 13 fits the bill pretty well. Or 8/12

----------


## Sparky McDibben

> Hey!  Rest assured, I will be posting more when I have time to sit down and crank stuff out (and don't have too many other projects begging my attention at the time).


Thanks Ludic!

----------


## Story_Optimized

I have been trying for a while now to make the Four Elements Monk somewhat optimized. I had a version that was... ok for a three-round nova, but it had no staying power. If anybody has cracked that nut, I would be really interested to see it.

----------


## Story_Optimized

I've been trying to decide whether to play the nuclear wizard, the iron-hobgoblin wizard, the tiefling masochist, the tesla coil, or the TSAR. for an upcoming two-PC Descent Into Avernus game. They all seem like a lot of fun, and I was struggling to decide between them.  

The more I looked at them, though, the more convinced I became that you can have your cake and eat it too. Note: I've only added a little to this build; credit goes to the posters above for the core. Also, this build was inspired by caffeine-induced insomnia, so apologies in advance for any errors. 
I give you:

*The Ubermage*

Feral Winged Tiefling Tempest Cleric 2 / Hexblade 1 / War Wizard 17
8 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 16 Int, 13 Wis, 13 Cha (Point Buy)
ASI (18 Int)
ASI (20 Int)
Res (Con)
Infernal Constitution
Orzhov Background, if allowed, for _spirit guardians_
Saves (when you spend a reaction): Str +1 (+3), Dex +2 (+6), Con +7 (+11), Int +5 (+9), Wis +7 (+11), Cha +7 (+11) 

You wear half-plate and use a shield, have a natural fly speed of 30 ft., and have resistance to fire, cold, and poison. While you're concentrating on a spell - (like _hex_) your AC is 20, and you can bump that to 22 with a reaction and not casting anything other than a cantrip the next turn, or to 25 by burning a spell slot. (If you can get ahold of_ boots of striding and springing_, you can safely wear plate despite your low strength, and this cranks up to 22 natively / 24 or 27 when you need to use a reaction after being hit.) You have 4 saves above +8 when you use a reaction to bump them (with Arcane Deflection), and you have +7 to initiative.

Tiefling Masochist - You lose Flames of Phlegethos' bonus to fire damage and Cloak of Flies, but you can upcast Armor of Agathys to give yourself more cold damage per turn. If you burn a 6th level slot for it, you are actually at 75 retributive damage per turn, rather than the masochist's 69.5. (Armor of Agathys, Fire Shield, Spirit Guardians, Wrath of the Storm, and Deflecting Shroud).  

Iron Hobgoblin - The above makes you _almost_ as durable as the Iron Hobgoblin. You have a lower Constitution, no Arcane Ward, and no magic resistance, but you (mostly) make up for the Arcane Ward with Armor of Agathys, Arcane Deflection gets you 1 away from the Iron Hobgoblin's saves, and Durable Magic consistently gives you an AC that the Iron Hobgoblin doesn't natively reach without the Shield spell. You're not quite as tanky, but you're close. 

Tesla Coil - Your retributive damage helps with mook-slaying, but you also have some of the best AoE options available. You have the maximized lightning damage option, no Overchannel required, via Destructive Wrath, just like the Tesla Coil build. 360 damage _chain lightning_, once per short rest. 

Nuclear Wizard - Want to nuke things with Magic Missile? You're not quite as good as the nuclear wizard, who gets (1d4+1 + 5 Evocation ability + 6 Hexblade's curse) = 14.5 damage per bolt * 11 bolts (159.5 damage total). It also takes you an extra bonus action to setup for Hex, but you get to (1d4 + 1 + 3.5 Hex + 6) = 13 damage per bolt * 11 bolts = 143 damage. 16 damage away isn't too shabby, even if you don't get to action surge, because... 

TSAR Artificer - If you want to go all steam-punk mechwarrior, you can do so as well as the artificer. You burn two 5th-level slots for your Tiny Servants, have them animate as pieces of what amounts to a gatling gun mounted on your shoulder (to get around rules for how many Tiny creatures can occupy a space), and give them standing orders to fire a _wand of magic missiles_ each time you shoot a magic missile at somebody. The original poster missed that wands can upcast magic missile, so your 10 Tiny Servants all launch 6th level _magic missile_ spells at your same target. You can't shoot again until the wands regain their charges, but who cares? You've done 8 bolts * (1d4 + 1) damage * 10 servants = 280 damage, for about a 2000 gp investment in crafting wands. Boom - you're now Warmachine. Lay down a simulacrum doing the same thing, and for 4 grand of wands and 1500 in simulacrum, you deal 846 force damage per turn.  

If you really want to go nuts, spend 40k and two years of downtime to make 10 _wands of lightning bolt_ or _fireball_, and deal 80d6 (280) damage of either type on your turn (or double with the simulacrum); no better damage, but you or your _unseen servant_ can keep turning the crank for 6 rounds in a row without burning out your wands.  

The build doesn't quite outpace any other poster's build at their own game - but it feels a little like Dr. Doom: being the second best magic-user AND the second-best scientist in the dimension is not a bad place to be.

----------


## RingoBongo

Not sure if this is up to the discussion thread standards but here goes...

General backstory: you are curious about a battle/invasion which was part of a larger war that killed or displaced you/ your family, or that set you back somehow ultimately causing you to hide in the shadows. Slowly, you start to come out of hiding and begin to inquire about the details of the war and you uncover some serious grevaince that has compelled right some wrong doings (enter multiclass with war cleric). 

[Insert Cool Name Here] 
....The Divine Conduit?

Inquisitive Rogue X / War Cleric 1 - 4



Progression: Rouge 3, Cleric 1, Rogue 4-5, Cleric 2-3, the rest as you see fit..

Race: wood elf, or ghostwise halfing,

I'm playing this one right now. Started with hill dwarf. But it think wood elf would be more optimal..

          ---Starting Ability Scores (point buy)---
STR 8, DEX 14+2, CON 15, INT 10, WIS: 15+1, CHA: 8
 (Or something similar depending on race and other build preferences)

            ---ASI/FEATS---
Definitely: +2 dex, Resilient con
Maybe: lucky
Honorable Mention: More Dex, skulker, tough, sharpshooter ain't bad, dual wielder, maybe +2 wis, maybe observant wisdom if you take one less in starting wis, maybe elven accuracy if you take elf)

           ---ARMOR CLASS---
-Studded leather is cheap and let's you stealth with 16/17 ac
-Could throw on full plate just for the hell of it as a dwarf or wood elf and would still have 25 base movement (assuming you dumped str)
-Could throw on a shield for fun and go s&b if necessary.
-Could cast shield of faith on self.
Depending on situation and build choices you could have anywhere between 16-22 ac, with or without stealth disadvantage. 

            ---SPELLS--- 
- Bless. Bless, bless and more bless. Especially since we're not going to go above 4 when access to other more appealing concentration spells are available. Also, a little bless can go a long way, always.
- Maybe guiding bolt if you wanna be cheeky.
- This is the spell list I'm preparing most of the time (not including War Domain spells):
       Cantrips: guidance, resistance, mending
       Level 1: bless, healing word, sanctuary, (maybe protection from g&e)
      Level 2: prayer of healing, enhance ability, aid, lesser restoration, blindness/ deafness
- There several other notable spells to prepare as well. 
- THIS: At 3-4 levels of cleric you get 6-7 lvl 1-2 spells slots total per long rest (over 2 times as many spells slots as a half caster class at the same level, this is at the greatest ratio of slots at any point of comparison between half casters and full casters) = more bless or whatever.

          ---SKILL PROFICIENCIES---
- Definitely these ones: insight, perception
- I also took these ones as a dwarf and outlander background: stealth, survival, athletics, and acrobatics
- Other good ones: investigation, slight of hand... Idk there's room here for flavor...
- Expertise: 1st level: insight, perception or stealth
6th level: perception or stealth, flavor choice ( I am probably taking theives' tools)

         ---COMBAT/ PLAYSTYLE---
- You're aware in and out of combat hopefully trying to stealth or do something cooler before combat starts. It's important to try to control the edges of combat. No one gets away or is able to hide. And you are ultra aware enough to blur the lines between "roll for initiative" and the end of the encounter.

- Survive as a rogue the best you can until Rogue 3/ cleric 1 where this build really comes online. 

- First round: bless party members and insightful fighting on a tasty enemy on the fringes of the encounter, maybe target the ones who attack at range. (Basically to make best use of your insightful fighting and not have to reset it on a new enemy many times throughout the encounter) until you take it down (hopefully more individually). 

- Then attack at range with longbow (use war priest--x3 uses per long rest--on important range misses to ensure sneak attack hits). Or attack up close and personal with a couple short swords. Use bonus action attack with off hand to help make sure your sneak attacks hit (use channel divinity: guided strike on important melee misses). 

*Once you get resilient con it will be harder to lose concentration on bless or other concentration spells.

*Once you get skulker you can incorporate more sneaky ranged shenanigans AND be even better at spotting hidden enemies before and during combat. 

* If you take lucky, you get 3 more make-sure-sneak-attack-hits resources to add on top of your 3 war priest uses and 1 channel divinity: guided strike for a grand total of 7 -- one of which is recharged every short rest 

**If you take it all the way to level 20 and only take 3 levels of cleric total you can get Inquisitive rogue feature: eye for weakness (+3d6 more sneak attack die) but main build is online pretty early at lvl 4ish.

*** You get cool role playing and outside of combat utility as well with cleric spells, rogue skill expertises, skulker feat an/or other feats like lucky, and other inquisitive rogue/ rogue features.

***Honestly any rogue + war cleric 1-4 would work about the same. I just believe there is more obvious synergy with inquisitive rogue

----------


## Mjolnirbear

A non-rogue thief

Sometimes the classes are simply too narrow.  You can build a monk without levels in Monk, or a fighter without levels in Fighter.  Here's my take on a thief. 

Vesselyth, the Clockwork Bandit
*Race*: Any, but I like Kobolds
*Class*:  Artificer
*Subclass*:  Alchemist or Archivist

*Skills*:  Stealth, Acrobatics, Investigation, Sleight of Hand
*Background*:  Any (but if you're playing a class without Thieves' Tools, Urchin or Criminal might be best).


Vesselyth has several tricks up his sleeve.  
*Magical Tinkering*:  
Leave a note beside a body 'in blood' that gives fake clues.  
"Accidentally" leaving a clue (a smear that smells like the sewers).
Distractions:  A tapping sound, as though at a window.  
A light for maps or investigation when everything's dark

*Alchemical Homunculous:*
A tiny mechanical flying scorpion that spits acid on things like locks, windows, alarm components, or the like.  Inspiration for all your skill check needs.  Buoyancy whenever you need to jump out a window or off a rooftop.

*Tools of the Trade*
A potion for every need!  Poisons, tanglefoot bags, potions of climbing, invisibility or flying! Half the cost and a quarter the time for you to make! 

*Artificial Mind* (if, instead, you go archivist):
More skills!  Learn about the noble you're robbing or the history of these ruins.  Manifest Mind to scout for you, watch your back, cast spells as if you were there (really handy for getting out of prison, for instance).  It doesn't go through objects, but most rooms have keyholes, air ducts, or space under the door.  Overload to stun a guard and knock him out easily, whether you need to get past him or if you accidentally were discovered.  



*Infoportation*
What's this?  A free break-in ability?  That's reuseable?  Send your Artificial Mind into the vault, port in, rob everything, port out.  Avoid sealed vaults; no entry, no exit (but there are so many other rooms)

*Many-Handed Pouch*
Vesselyth loves this grift.  He doesn't always pickpocket in the normal way.  Instead, he picks some rich noble, or someone he wants info on, and switches out their belt pouch.  Nobles don't count their coin; when he needs to pay for something, he need only pull out someone else's cash.  He might occasionally find other valuables, like notes, jewellery, or other interesting things.  For bonus points, if he's an Archivist he can communicate with the holder of the pouch.  Or he can plant evidence through the pouch to draw the focus of an investigation or search elsewhere, like one of his tapping Magical Tinkering devices.

----------


## masterjoda99

So, Ludic, could you perhaps break down further your spell choices for the Iron Hobgoblin and Nuclear Wizard? Particularly the cantrips of the latter and what the former does for offense? I'm playing a nuclear wizard in a game now, but with 4 wizard cantrips and 2 warlock ones, I find that I can't get all the element shaping (Mold Earth, Shape Water, Control Flames), Create Bonfire, and get another attack cantrip without it being from warlock, and thus having a much worse save dc.

Also, my DM houseruled the bonus from hexblade's curse to only apply to the first magic missile bolt that hits a given foe, so that avenue of nuking has been drastically reduced. What approach should I take in its stead?

----------


## LudicSavant

> So, Ludic, could you perhaps break down further your spell choices for the Iron Hobgoblin and Nuclear Wizard? Particularly the cantrips of the latter and what the former does for offense? I'm playing a nuclear wizard in a game now, but with 4 wizard cantrips and 2 warlock ones, I find that I can't get all the element shaping (Mold Earth, Shape Water, Control Flames), Create Bonfire, and get another attack cantrip without it being from warlock, and thus having a much worse save dc.


Re:  The Nuclear Wizard cantrips question:

From the Warlock list, you can take any 2 of Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, or (if Orzhov) Guidance.  All of these should be useful even when they're Cha-based.

From the Wizard list, you can pick up any of Create Bonfire, Shape Water, Control Flames, Mold Earth, Lightning Lure, Fire Bolt, Toll the Dead, Frostbite, or Thunderclap.  I recommend having at least 2 offensive cantrips for the Nuclear Wizard.  Other than that it'd depend on my concept and party.

I elaborate on why I like each of these cantrips for the build in the Nuclear Wizard post itself, in a spoiler block near the bottom.

Re:  The Hobgoblin Abjurer Offense question:

Unlike the Nuclear Wizard the Hobgoblin Abjurer doesn't really fundamentally change which spells are best on offense, so it's pretty much all of the old Wizard standbys.  Cast Sleet Storm to lock down a mob and pitch Fireballs into the chaos to wipe them all out.  Buff your minion Fighter and watch their DPR skyrocket with the right buff (which buff you should pick depends on _their_ build more than yours).  Raise an army of the undead and give them bows.  Or throw down a pile of daggers and animate them with Animate Objects.  Have your familiar Help people, or cast Dragon Breath on it, or whatever.  Or don't even worry about damage and just focus on using stuff like Hypnotic Pattern or Wall of Force.  You know, Wizard stuff.  All kinds of options.

That's all I have time for right now, hope that helps!

----------


## Klorox

That hobgoblin wizard just keeps intriguing me. I cant even tell you what it is. 

Maybe its because I just love wizards anyway, and Ive done the arcana cleric.

----------


## masterjoda99

Well, for me the hobgoblin is so fascinating because I love wizards and also the pure invincibility.

----------


## masterjoda99

Also, does anyone have good "Summoner" builds for here? I'm not entirely sold on summoning in 5e, so I was wondering if anyone could change my mind and sell me on it.

----------


## Citadel97501

> Also, does anyone have good "Summoner" builds for here? I'm not entirely sold on summoning in 5e, so I was wondering if anyone could change my mind and sell me on it.


Well quite simply, the Shepherd Druid is the go to summoning class as the capabilities of their summons are massively improved through the bonus hit points, and that their minions get magic attacks.  Some of the more powerful things, I have seen are simply summoning a crap load of wolves, then turning into a shrew or other burrowing small animal and hiding while the wolved dismember everything.  We also noted the raptors from one of the monster manuals, however any DM will (and should) say No...

With the Bear Spirit totem, you also get truly ridiculously tough wolves, although the Unicorn one is better for most parties so you can heal but each has their place.

*Stats on the Wolves*
Minions: *8 wolves* summoned for 1 hour.
Health Points: *25 health points per wolf!*  11 (+4 more from shepherd) & +10 temporary hit points per wolf...
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. *(Magical attacks & Pack Tactics)*
Hit: 7 (2d4 + 2) piercing damage.  (A bit lower but the accuracy and fact that you get 8 of them makes this do more damage than fireballs.)

----------


## Fable Wright

> Also, does anyone have good "Summoner" builds for here? I'm not entirely sold on summoning in 5e, so I was wondering if anyone could change my mind and sell me on it.


Take the terrain/hazard goblin druid and make it a Shepherd Druid instead. At level 6, you can summon Wolves/Velociraptors that deal magic damage, and murderize everything. At level 11, you get Planar Bound Annis Hags and can proceed to murder _everything._ At level 13, you get Korred (control enemy movement and murder them at range, finally) and Planar Bound Bheur Hags (because all the blasting!). Really, not much more to it.

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## masterjoda99

So it's all about druid for summoning this edition? Are the wizard summoning spells just that lacking in comparison?

----------


## Fable Wright

> So it's all about druid for summoning this edition? Are the wizard summoning spells just that lacking in comparison?


Wizards have Conjure Minor Elementals, Conjure Elemental, Summon Lesser Demons, Summon Greater Demon, and Infernal Calling. 

Of those, only demon summoning can be done as a single action, and Summon Lesser Demons has a 33% chance of summoning 8 dretches, 33% chance of summoning 4 dretches, or 33% chance of summoning two quasits. ...Aaaaall of which are really inferior to the options of Conjure Animals. Also, did I mention that all of those summons refuse to take orders and will merely attack the nearest creatures?

Summon Greater Demon is where Wizards can arguably begin to match Druids in summoning, but there's the tiny little issue of the summoned demon making a Charisma save every round to all-but-inevitably attempt to murder your party a few minutes after summoning, as opposed to the Druid's relatively well-behaved summons that can very often get to the end of their full hour duration.

On the other hand, Druids have Conjure Minor Elementals, Conjure Elemental, Conjure Animals, Conjure Woodland Beings, and Conjure Fey.

Conjure Woodland Beings requires several nerfs to be anywhere near playable, because Pixies are busted. And at high levels you can basically straight up summon a high level wizard by conjuring three Sea Hags.

Conjure Animals with Shepherd Druid boosts, along with the variety of senses that they have, the number you summon, the fact that Shepherds can communicate with their summons, the fact that they won't try to kill the party, and the fact that you aren't using a fixed, terrible list like Summon Lesser Demons, makes it far superior to its Wizard equivalent.

And Conjure Fey can get you a Planar Bound Hag Coven. That is 3 extra reactions with counterspell, and a variety of options from the hag on it including some amazing grapplemancy from Annis Hag, awesome blasting from the Bheur Hag, and the undetectability of the Green Hag.  Also, Korreds, for an extra 6th level Conjure Elemental and an extra 6th level Irresistible Dance, as well as the best ranged summon damage in the game.

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## saucerhead

@LudicSavant 
We need an update to this thread.
How about a lizard folk monk? Can you optimize us a Bruce Leezard?

----------


## Genoin

I'd really love to see a sample build at multiple levels for the summoner druid, and what the best options are at each level.

----------


## Bobthewizard

> I'd really love to see a sample build at multiple levels for the summoner druid, and what the best options are at each level.


Here's a good guide for the shepherd druid. Nhym goes into quite a bit of detail on spell selection and how to use the conjure spells.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-to-Fuzzy-Fury

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## Skylivedk

Has anyone found a good answer as to whether Baleful Curse works on Wall of Fire, Spiked Growth etc? Especially Spiked Growth can wild if they combo. Some napkin math is telling me stuff like an Aarakocra monk, ranger, fighter, hexblade, being able to go 3 x 80 feet for (2d4+6)*48 dmg = 720 dmg. You can probably go higher by shapeshifting as a druid and dipping hexblade.

As for the Thief challenge, I forgot a character I had built around Thief/Pala/Sorcerer (for twin Enlarge/reduce) as a temp character in my ToA campaign. Lemme know if it's interesting. Main schtick was grappling Greater Basilisk at level 6-7. I've also added some DPR to previous builds.

----------


## Sparky McDibben

> @LudicSavant 
> We need an update to this thread.
> How about a lizard folk monk? Can you optimize us a Bruce Leezard?


And the soulknife build, please! And Hieroneous in your god series. 

You didn't need that free time, right? :)

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## zinycor

So, what would be a build to achieve maximum speed? I imagine it involving several monk levels, a tabaxi, and the haste spell.

----------


## NoxMiasma

> So, what would be a build to achieve maximum speed? I imagine it involving several monk levels, a tabaxi, and the haste spell.


A number of people have tried to work that one out, and here is one option!
We go monk and tabaxi, for that sweet, sweet feline agility, allowing this character to double their speed for one turn.

*Theoretical Maximum Fast*
Tabaxi, Monk 18/ Fighter 2
Stats: actually don't matter for this build, we just gotta go fast, but its a standard monk beyond the nyoom, so raise Dex, then Wis/Con.
Feats: Mobility is a must for another +10 ft movement
Magic Items: Boon of Speed - granting a +30 bonus to movement, Boots of Speed - double that movement speed again for 10 min, borrowing a friend's Transmuter's Stone for a further +10 ft bonus to speed
This build absolutely requires a teammate with Haste, because we Gotta Go Fast, and should also see if that Hasting buddy can cast Longstrider on them, for another +10 ft.
The total speed for the character, as a one-turn burst, is:
Base Speed= 30+30(Boon of Speed)+10(Transmuter's Stone)+30(Unarmoured Movement)+10(Mobility)+10(Longstrider) x2 (Feline Agility) x2 (Boots of Speed) x2 (Haste) = 720ft base speed

Now, the monk moves, and then uses their action, haste action, and bonus action (via Step of the Wind) to Dash. Then they Action Surge, for another action, moving their full speed 4 times, and ending a whopping _3600 ft_ from their start position. This means, in that one round, the character moved at 600 ft/second, or 409 mph (658 kph, if you use metric like a sensible person). That's over half the speed of sound!

Okay, so I got almost halfway through doing all that maths, and then I remembered the Shapechange spell, and that Quicklings (_Volo's Guide to Monsters_) are really dang fast.

*Theoretical Maximum Fast v2.0*
However, this option loses out on bonus action dash, and needs several other friends willing to provide Expeditious Retreat and Haste, because you are busy concentrating on being a very fast fey, but with a bunch of buffing friends, you can get to 120+30(boon)+10(stone)+10(longstrider)+10(mobility  ) x2 (Feline Agility) x2 (boots) x2 (haste) = 1440 ft base speed, for an absolutely blistering 5760 feet in one round, using the same action set as the monk, resulting in 654.5 mph, or 1053 km/h. This however relies on your DM ruling that a quickling is physically capable of making use of feline agility, without which the wizard drops to 720ft base movement, matching the monk build.

----------


## Lord Von Becker

What about Wind Walk? Does Feline Grace count as an action?

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## 8wGremlin

> What about Wind Walk? Does Feline Grace count as an action?


nope




> Your reflexes and agility allow you to move with a burst of speed. When you move on your turn in combat, you can double your speed until the end of the turn. Once you use this trait, you cant use it again until you move 0 feet on one of your turns.


so 300' for windwalk, dash as an action, + feline agility
(will haste and longstrider work?)

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## Evaar

Get 2 levels of Wizard-Bladesinger and drop to Monk 16 for a net gain of 5 feet with Bladesong. Cast Longstrider on yourself with those spell slots, too.

----------


## NoxMiasma

> What about Wind Walk? Does Feline Grace count as an action?


Heck I forgot about Wind Walk! Okay this isnt my maths, full credit to Miniman



> If bonuses to your speed do apply to flying speeds then the fastest you can go is:
> 
> Wind Walk: 300ft.
> Longstrider spell: +10 ft.
> Haste spell: Double speed
> Expeditious Retreat: Doesn't boost your speed, but allows you to Dash as a bonus action.
> Dash action x3 (Bonus, Action, and Haste Action): Quadruple speed
> Total: (300 + 10) x 2 x 4 = 2480 ft per round.


And Feline Agility is not an action, you can trigger it when you move, and it applies for the whole turn.

----------


## Lord Von Becker

Okay. In that case:

Wind Walk, Base Speed 300 ft.
Longstrider +10 ft. (310)
Transmuter's Stone +10 ft. (320)
Wizard 2 (Bladesinger) +10 ft. (330)

Fighter 2 for Action Surge.
Expeditious Retreat, for Dash as a bonus action.

If pre-applied speed bonuses apply to Wind Walk:
Epic Boon of Speed +30 ft. (360)
Mobility +10 (370)
Paladin 3 (Avenger) +10 ft. (380)
Monk 10 +20 ft. (400)

We have either 3 or 16 levels free - any idea what to spend them on? The other ruling that could hurt this is Bladesingers having to be Elves.
(Oh wait, it's obvious. Go Moon Druid and completely abuse Spike Growth.)

Anyway, on to the multipliers. This is a table, because I wanted as definitive an answer as possible.

Unmultiplied Speed
320
330
360
400

Haste
640
660
720
800

Dash
1280
1320
1440
1600

Surge Dash
2560
2640
2880
3200

Expeditious Dash
5120
5280
5760
6400

Haste Dash
10240
10560
11520
12800

Feline Agility
20480
21120
23040
25600

Boots of Haste
40960
42240
46080
51200



Anyone have anything I missed?
EDIT: Oh right, Mobility. I feel silly. Also, I've added another column for if the Epic Boon counts but the other pre-applied speed bonuses don't.

----------


## NoxMiasma

> If pre-applied speed bonuses apply to Wind Walk:
> Paladin 3 (Avenger) +10 ft. (340)
> Monk 10 +20 ft. (360)
> Epic Boon of Speed +30 ft. (390)


Sadly, I don't believe class bonuses to speed apply, so Fast Movement or Unarmoured Movement don't give a benefit.

----------


## Citadel97501

Does anyone have a build based on flight, I was reading through the new Twilight Unearthed Arcana and it got me interested in what we have available for an effective self powered flying character IE not a mounted character.

----------


## Lord Von Becker

Off the top of my head? Aarakockra Monk, probably Open Hand because it's powerful. The Monk _is_ somewhat designed for divebombing, so that might be what you're looking for. It's pretty strictly conventional, though.
Things I'm less aware of: Winged Tiefling in any of the Tiefling builds - Sorcadin, Warlock, etcetera - and I _think_ you can just modify the Celestial Generalist for that. I don't know very much about it, though; Variant Tieflings aren't in the free rules.

----------


## Sparky McDibben

Anybody got anymore cool builds to post?

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## Kitsune Inari

> *The Passive Soul*
> [...]
> Feast buffer: 2d10 to party members without Aid


Why only members without _aid_? Unless you have a party of more than twelve members (which is possible if you include familiars, mounts and hirelings), you can give _heroes' feast_ to everyone and stack _aid_ on top of it for your frontline combatants, for 2d10+20/2d10+30 extra Maximum HP.

Keep in mind that they are two different spells, even if their effects affect the same variable, therefore they can stack if the nature of the variable affected allows for it (e.g. two bonuses to ability checks could stack, giving advantage twice can not).

----------


## Aidamis

Hi.
   I bet some of your are familiar with a certain channel about video game/movie character builds, and many have tried to draw inspiration from a favorite character of theirs to do a build.
Since I've noticed that OP is ok with folks posting their own ideas, for which I'm thankful, here's a concept I've been considering: the Saber Tribute Fighter/Sorladin.
   Saber is the code name for japanese author Kinoko Nasu's own version of king Arthur. 
   The character appears in the short anime called Fate/Prototype, based on Nasu's drafts for what would later become the famous Fate/Stay Night media mix. [Sorry for the lack of pictures I'm hardly familiar with the rules surrounding them and would prefer to avoid trouble.] 

   Saber is a sword and sometimes spear-wielding paladin with several canon abilities 
- he can resist al but the most powerful magic and "tank" a lot of magic damage, 
he can freely move on water, he has weapons and armor he can summon at will and 
he's quite good at getting undercover and looking like an ordinary man. 
Finally his Trump Card is a devastating area of effect energy blast that bears the name of king Arthur's famous sword.
   Since this is a tribute, I'll be partially emulating and partially staying away from the canonical character, all within DnD 5e rules, no homebrew.

   So, to make a long research/story short - we'll be playing an Eldritch Knight 6/Paladin7/Sorcerer 5/Divination Wizard 2. 
   We'll start as Fighter 1 for the solid package and flavor and the immediately move to Divine Soul Sorcerer 1-5. Now we can get a SCAG cantrip and enjoy a lot of spell choice variety (notably Bless from the Cleric spell list). We're also Favored by the Gods and we can pick Disguise self for the "change in and out of armor" at some point. At Sorcerer level 5 we grab Water Walk.
   From seventh level to 11th we'll go Eldritch Knight for the weapon bond and extra spells. We can easily bump Charisma to 20 by then.
   From level 12 to 18 we'll be taking Paladin levels. Preferably Oath of the Ancients for spell damage resistance but a character based on king Arthur can just as well be an Oath of Devotion, Crown... Find Steed will be a great pick for transportation needs and Divine Smite will emulate Saber's most famous technique in his arsenal.
   The Divination Wizard levels will come in last. Portent works well alongside Favored by the Gods and two Wizard levels also add flexibility and spell slots for smiting. Besides with a total spellcaster level of 12 (7/2+6/3+5+2) we can potentially cast Magic Weapon +3. 

   Overall the "Saber Class" gives a versatile divine champion build that might not dish out the most damage or perform the best healing but one that achieves our Saber Tribute goals. The key weaknesses are obviously a lack of specialization and high-level spellcasting ability as well as only four ASIs or five with Variant Human. And since we'd need high Str/Cha and 13 Int, the other stats will suffer. In all honesty, I've seen other people take on Saber in its more popular version (the Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night Saber) and a case can be made for pure EK, pure Paladin or a mix of the two with some Sorcerer levels thrown in. But this is my take and I stand by it. Thank you for reading, sorry for the long-ish post, feel free to leave feedback.

----------


## bendking

> *Tesla Coils*
> The ideal of the blaster is always the pursuit of maximum damage with minimum risk to the party.


I see your Storm Wizard, and raise you a Storm Sorcerer!
Behold, the God of Lightning!



This one is based on the new Elemental Spell Metamagic in the new Alternate Class Features UA. This new Metamagic makes your whole schtick a whole lot... schtickier? 
Maxed Thunder Fireball (Thunderball)? Why, don't mind if I do. You can practically _max damage_ every damaging spell in your list, so have fun.

Race: Variant Human
Classes: Tempest Cleric 2/Storm Sorcerer 18
Stats (Point Buy): 8 STR / 14 DEX / 14 CON / 9 INT / 13 WIS / 16 CHA
ASIs: Warcaster (V.Human), 20 CHA, X
Progression: Sorcerer 1 -->  Cleric 1 -- > Sorcerer 5 --> Cleric 2 --> Sorcerer 18

Metamagics: Elemental, Twin, [10th Sorcerer - Empowered)
*Spoiler: Spell Selection*
Show

I went up to 11 in Sorcerer, because you only get one pick out of each new spell level from there on out. It's also a matter of personal taste at this point.
Cleric Spells:
Cantrips: Guidance, Toll the Dead/Sacred Flame, Light/Thaumaturgy
1 - Healing Word, Bless
2 - Healing Word, Bless, Shield of Faith/Sanctuary
Domain - Fog Cloud, Thunderwave

Sorcerer Spells:
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Lightning Lure, Thunderclap, Ray of Frost, Chill Touch
1 -  Shield, Sleep
2 -  Shield, Absorb Elements, Sleep
3 -  Shield, Absorb Elements | Web, Shatter
4 -  Shield, Absorb Elements | Web, Shatter, Warding Wind
5 -  Shield, Absorb Elements | Web, Shatter | Fireball, Counterspell
6 -  Shield, Absorb Elements | Web, Shatter | Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Counterspell
7 -  Shield, Absorb Elements, Grease | Shatter | Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Counterspell | Wall of Fire
8 -  Shield, Absorb Elements, Grease | Shatter |  Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Counterspell | Wall of Fire, Greater Invisibility
9 -  Shield, Absorb Elements, Grease | Shatter | Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Counterspell | Wall of Fire, Greater Invisibility | Cone of Cold
10 - Shield, Absorb Elements, Grease | Shatter  | Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Counterspell | Wall of Fire, Greater Invisibility | Cone of Cold, Telekinesis
11 -  Shield, Absorb Elements, Grease | Shatter  | Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Counterspell | Wall of Fire, Greater Invisibility | Cone of Cold, Telekinesis | Chain Lightning

This list is a work in progress, and of course you can and should change the list to fit your party composition if needed.
Overall, the flexible spells here are Shatter, Lightning Bolt, Greater Invisibility and Telekinesis.
Suggestions to the list are welcome :)

Note - In the case of Vitriolic Sphere, only the 10d4 gets maximized, which makes it 52 damage, so you'd be better off maxing Fireball for damage, which is why I didn't include it in the list. However, it's still more powerful than Fireball if you don't maximize either, so it might be worth considering.

Here's some of the damage we can do ('/' is for upcast):
3rd level: Maxed Thunderwave - 16/24 damage. Maxed Chromatic Orb - 24/32 damage.
5th level: Maxed Shatter - 24/32 damage.
7th level : Maxed Fireball - 48/56 damage.
9th level: Maxed Wall of Fire - depends on which roll you max. 
11th level: Maxed Cone of Cold - 64/72 damage.
13th level: Maxed Chain Lightning - 80x4 damage.
Note - I didn't calculate in the save chance on these spells. These are the numbers if the enemy didn't save.

*Spoiler: Wall of Fire HYPE*
Show

Wall of Fire damage depends on whether you max the initial roll for enemies caught in the wall, or max the guaranteed damage roll for one enemy that passes through it. Of course, if you can get him to move through the wall again, he would take 40 damage TWICE. This works very well with Repelling Blast Warlocks/Sorlocks and the like. You could also potentially Thunderwave (which is always prepared for you) the poor guy back into the ring/beind the wall. Did someone say "boss killer"? The damage for a single bloke would be 5d8 + 40, which is about 56 damage on average, and 96 from a single spell if you manage to Thunderwave/Repelling Blast him back in.


So, what can you do other than *blasting the ever living crap out of everyone you see* you see?
Well, you're also a tank, with a monumental 20 AC, that becomes 25 AC with Shield, and Absorb Elements, and you have the ever wonderful Warcaster feat to get you some sweet, sweet Booming Blade OA, making sure your enemies will either regret moving away from you, or stay close right where you want them with Heart of the Storm.
Also, since Booming Blade is a spell, it means that it triggers Heart of the Storm (*but only when upcast!*). That's right, extra half-your-sorcerer damage in 10ft. AoE to whoever you wish on an OA. You're officially sticky, baby.
There's also the great synergy between Web and Thunderball, since your Thunderball wouldn't burn away your Web, allowing it to keep applying disadvantage on your colossal booms.

We can also Twin a *bunch* of stuff: Booming Blade, Lightning Lure, Ray of Frost, Toll the Dead, Chill Touch | Healing Word, Sanctuary/Shield of Faith | Greater Invisibility.
Twin Booming Blade is especially good for a poor man's Extra Attack as long as you're near two enemies (which you want to be). Upcast it and you get 2d8 + 2 (DEX) + 3 (HotS) [+ 2d8 if they move] on two enemies. Not too shabby.
Twin Greater Invisibility is especially appealing for us because Sorcerers can find it a bit difficult to get off on account of its Touch range, but for us it's actually a good call to Twin it on ourselves and someone else, since we are going to tank anyway!

Overall at least two SP a day should go to Elemental Spell to maximize blast spells, or occasionally to proc Heart of the Storm (you'd have to be near at least 3 enemies IMO), while the rest of your SP should go toward Twinning spells.

In regards to magic items, you only really want Gauntlets/Belt of Ogre Power. It gets you better attacks and more movement speed.

There's probably way more combos to specify, but that's the gist of it. Obviously, in higher levels things get ridiculous, as they often do. Maxed Thunder Meteor Swarm, anybody? Yeah.
Now, go! Channel the power of Thor and collapse mortals under the power of your devastating hammer and lightning.

P.S. I'm super open to suggestions and improvements for this, so feel free everyone :)

*Spoiler: Variants*
Show

- You could replace the stat array to 15 STR / 8 DEX / 13 CON / 9 INT / 13 WIS / 16 CHA, if you _really_ don't want to lose 10ft. of movement, and are willing to sacrifice +1 CON for it (and the Initiative, and DEX save rolls...). However, it's worth mentioning you get +10ft. movement as a bonus action from Storm Sorcerer anyway, which makes up for the loss.
- An alternative progression would be [Sorcerer 5 --> Cleric 2 --> Sorcerer 18] if you don't want to delay 2nd tier abilities (Fireball), but then you won't be able to tank and Bless up until levels 6.
- If you play with GGtR, the Orhzov Background is amazing due to Spirit Guardians.
*Spoiler: Alternative Races*
Show

Levistus Tiefling/Scourge Aasimar (DEX-build): 8 STR / 14 DEX / 13+1 CON / 9 INT / 14 WIS / 14+2 CHA
Levistus Tiefling would give you some synergistic spells: Hellish Rebuke, Armor of Agathys, and Darkness. Scourge Aasimar gives you a powerful AoE and damage rider every round, but requires you to have some sort of way to boost your CON save to 9+ so you won't break your own concentration each round with the damage over time.
Triton (STR-build): STR 14+1 / DEX 9 / CON 13+1 / INT 8 / WIS 13 / CHA 15+1
The STR build can be done with a Triton (STR+1, CON+1, CHA+1), that is usually a paladin race, but works well here. That way there's no loss to CON, we get amphibious breathing & swimming, resistance to Cold damage, and three free spells: Fog Cloud, Gust of Wind, Wall of Water. We already have Fog Cloud as Domain spell, but it's good to get 1 cast per day for free. For some absolutely ridiculous reason the Tritons don't have Darkvision though

Yuan-Ti (DEX-build): STR 8 / DEX 14 / CON 14 / INT 9+1 / WIS 13 / CHA 14+2
The Yuan-Ti (CHA+2, INT+1) give us the powerful Magic Resistance buff to all of our saving throws against magic. They also round up INT 10, add absolute Poison immunity, grant us Darkvision (yay!), and add a few spells (Poison Spray, Animal Friendship on snakes, Suggestion) based on CHA - which makes Suggestion a very nice & welcome addition to our out-of-combat skill set!

Kalashtar (DEX-build): STR 8 / DEX 14 / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 12+2 / CHA 15+1
The Kalashtar (WIS+2, CHA+1) grant us advantage on all of our WIS saves, which is super sweet & not even limited to magic. They also grant resistance to Psychic damage, which strongly mitigates our low INT saves, as INT-save-spells always deal Psychic damage. The immunity to dream is pretty useless, but they have one of the strongest Telepathy abilities next to an Elder Brain: Two-way telepathy established with one creature via a simple action, smashing all language-barriers to pieces, at an incredible 10ft per level range (i.e. longer than Familiar communication past level 10)  and unlimited creature one-way communication at this range! It's limited to sight, but still an extremely powerful addition to our social skill set and making us the perfect party face.

----------


## Aidamis

The Flying Saucer: 

Conquest Paladin 6/Divine Soul Sorcerer 14
Feat/Asi priorities: Charisma, Warcaster. 15 or 16 Str should be minimum in order to qualify for heavy armor.

The Saucer flies around supporting allies and/or smiting foes that aren't yet terrified of them.
Not only can they strike with accuracy when it matters, they're useful both at range and in melee.

It's also possible to do a "pocket" version of the Saucer by simply playing a Protector Aasimar. Then you can even go Conquest Paladin 7/Divine Soul Sorcerer 13, use flight more sparingly but gain full benefits granted by Aura of Conquest.

----------


## YoFizz

> I see your Storm Wizard, and raise you a Storm Sorcerer!
> Behold, the God of Lightning!
> 
> 
> 
> Race: Variant Human
> Classes: Tempest Cleric 2/Storm Sorcerer 18
> Stats (Point Buy): 16 STR / 8 DEX / 14 CON / 8 INT / 10 WIS / 16 CHA
> ASIs: Warcaster (V.Human), 20 CHA, X


I like where your head is at but you can't multiclass into or out of cleric without 13 wis

----------


## Aidamis

> I like where your head is at but you can't multiclass into or out of cleric without 13 wis


Well-noticed! Maybe the starting race could be Protector Aasimar or Kalashtar, then while one "loses" the extra feat, one gains the possibility to start with something like 
15 in Str, 8 in Dex, 14 in Con, 8 in Int, 12 in Wis and 14 in Cha 
(9+0+7+4+7=27)
which gives 15 8 14 8 13 16 after racial bonuses for Protector Aasimar.

VHuman is possible, but at the cost of a risky 16 8 12 8 13 16 for starting stats.

----------


## Theaitetos

> Well, you're also a tank, with a monumental 20 AC, that becomes 25 AC with Shield, and Absorb Elements, and you have the ever wonderful Warcaster feat to get you some sweet, sweet Booming Blade OA, making sure your enemies will either regret moving away from you, or stay close right where you want them with Heart of the Storm.
> Also, since Booming Blade is a spell, it means that it triggers Heart of the Storm. That's right, extra half-your-sorcerer damage in 10ft. AoE to whoever you wish on an OA.


Heart of the Storm only triggers on spells level 1 and higher, not on cantrips.

However, it might be possible (not sure) that _Absorb Elements_ triggers Heart of the Storm, after all it's a spell that deals lightning or thunder damage (if you use it against lightning/thunder damage). So in other words: When you trigger Heart of the Storm with a spell (for example Thunderball), you could include yourself in the creatures damaged by it, which would then allow you to cast Absorb Elements and trigger Heart of the Storm a second time this round. Ofc Warcaster and Shield might not be that useful anymore, rather go with Elemental Adept and Dragon's Breath?

Edit:
You are free to upcast the cantrip _Booming Blade_ however and use a 1st-level spell-slot to trigger Heart of the Storm. This would definitely be worth it at higher levels; spending a 1st-level spell-slot on 3 damage for a level 6 sorcerer is just not worth it imo.

I'm not very comfortable with so much STR on a sorcerer. I'd say dump STR 8 and put it into DEX (maybe CON or WIS for cleric multiclass). STR & DEX are interchangeable for finesse weapons (so just pick a finesse weapon) and grapple checks (but grappling a storm sorcerer is probably not a good idea). The movement penalty of heavy armor for low STR is no biggie: 10ft speed reduction. DEX saves and skills are more important than STR saves and skills.

If you want to go melee, then spend your concentration on _Flame Blade_ (meta → lightning/thunder) and deal 3d6 thunder damage per hit! It's a 2nd-level spell and adds +1d6 damage per two spell-levels (e.g. 4d6 @4th-level spell-slot, 5d6 @6th). Works well since beginning at level 7 you have a 4th level spell-slot but no native 4th-level spells, and as the Thunderblade is a scimitar (light, finesse), you could use DEX instead of STR for opportunity attacks (even with Booming Blade!) and deal a stunning 4d6 (Thunderblade base) +1d8 (Booming Blade level 5-10) +3 (Heart of the Storm @ sorc level 5) and potentially +2d8 (Booming Blade triggered) damage (average: 21.5, or 30.5 triggered) per opportunity attack.

----------


## bendking

> I like where your head is at but you can't multiclass into or out of cleric without 13 wis


Oh right, I'll have to choose a new stat array now, which brings me to...




> Well-noticed! Maybe the starting race could be Protector Aasimar or Kalashtar, then while one "loses" the extra feat, one gains the possibility to start with something like 
> 15 in Str, 8 in Dex, 14 in Con, 8 in Int, 12 in Wis and 14 in Cha 
> (9+0+7+4+7=27)
> which gives 15 8 14 8 13 16 after racial bonuses for Protector Aasimar.
> 
> VHuman is possible, but at the cost of a risky 16 8 12 8 13 16 for starting stats.


The thing is, you're a blaster, which means having 20 CHA as early as possibly is quite important, and you'll also be an off-tank taking some hits, both of which make getting Warcaster at level 1 quite important.
This is why I think the array you offered with V.Human is the only real option: 16/8/12/8/13/16 if we're going for high STR (more on the alternative below).
I do admit that getting this guy to be a good tank is going to be a bit harder with 12 CON, but hopefully Shield makes up for it.




> Heart of the Storm only triggers on spells level 1 and higher, not on cantrips.
> 
> However, it might be possible (not sure) that _Absorb Elements_ triggers Heart of the Storm, after all it's a spell that deals lightning or thunder damage (if you use it against lightning/thunder damage). So in other words: When you trigger Heart of the Storm with a spell (for example Thunderball), you could include yourself in the creatures damaged by it, which would then allow you to cast Absorb Elements and trigger Heart of the Storm a second time this round. Ofc Warcaster and Shield might not be that useful anymore, rather go with Elemental Adept and Dragon's Breath?
> 
> Edit:
> You are free to upcast the cantrip _Booming Blade_ however and use a 1st-level spell-slot to trigger Heart of the Storm. This would definitely be worth it at higher levels; spending a 1st-level spell-slot on 3 damage for a level 6 sorcerer is just not worth it imo.
> 
> I'm not very comfortable with so much STR on a sorcerer. I'd say dump STR 8 and put it into DEX (maybe CON or WIS for cleric multiclass). STR & DEX are interchangeable for finesse weapons (so just pick a finesse weapon) and grapple checks (but grappling a storm sorcerer is probably not a good idea). The movement penalty of heavy armor for low STR is no biggie: 10ft speed reduction. DEX saves and skills are more important than STR saves and skills.
> 
> If you want to go melee, then spend your concentration on _Flame Blade_ (meta → lightning/thunder) and deal 3d6 thunder damage per hit! It's a 2nd-level spell and adds +1d6 damage per two spell-levels (e.g. 4d6 @4th-level spell-slot, 5d6 @6th). Works well since beginning at level 7 you have a 4th level spell-slot but no native 4th-level spells, and as the Thunderblade is a scimitar (light, finesse), you could use DEX instead of STR for opportunity attacks (even with Booming Blade!) and deal a stunning 4d6 (Thunderblade base) +1d8 (Booming Blade level 5-10) +3 (Heart of the Storm @ sorc level 5) and potentially +2d8 (Booming Blade triggered) damage (average: 21.5, or 30.5 triggered) per opportunity attack.


Right, well noticed on that Heart of the Storm thing. That is quite a bummer. However, the upcasting is definitely a good option.
I still like Warcaster for the CON save advantage, since you are meant to be going to the frontlines.

Regarding STR: To be frank, the movement penalty might not be a huge deal for a tank with a massive range on his spells, and doubly so because you have 10ft. of movement as a bonus action from Storm Sorcerer  :Small Big Grin: 
You do make a compelling argument for an alternative build. The build doesn't change at all beside switching the stats of STR and DEX, after all.

I do find the flavor of high STR cooler (because hammers), but the Flame Blade in the Sorcerer list does change things a bit, and you can always flavor it as a Flame Hammer.
First off, it uses spell attack (it _looks_ like a Scimitar, but it isn't one), so it makes you SAD. This means that as long as you have a slot of level 2 or higher, and are willing to sacrifice your concentration slot (which is actually somewhat less valuable on a blaster build), you don't even need either a high DEX or STR. This lets us go with the following array: 8/14/14/8/13/16 as a V.Human, or even  8/12/16/8/13/16 for more tankiness but more reliance on Flame Blade. Honestly, DEX saves are less important when you have Absorb Elements, so the latter array might even be a better idea.

What do you think? Thank you so much for your feedback! Looking forward to continue to optimize this guy :)

----------


## Theaitetos

> I still like Warcaster for the CON save advantage, since you are meant to be going to the frontlines.


That's easily remedied:
Choose Sorcerer for first level at character creation, not Cleric. That way you won't have CHA + WIS saving throw proficiencies, but CHA + CON. You still get all armor proficiencies and martial weapon proficiency due to them being a Divine Domain feature, not a class ability.

The advantage on CON saves is statistically worth much less than the proficiency bonus. A high CON score (14 or 16) should do the trick on additional +2 or +3 modifiers. With your stat array at level 1 you'd already have a +5 modifier on CON saves. With magic items and buffs (e.g. _Bless_) you should have a +8 modifier on CON saves, and at level 9 you automatically pass all concentration checks for <22 damage hits.

War Caster is less efficient on sorcerers than other casters, and you should only take it if you get something useful out of the other parts of the feat: opportunity attack spells or somatic & material components handled when wielding shield + implement.




> Regarding STR: To be frank, the movement penalty might not be a huge deal for a tank with a massive range on his spells, and doubly so because you have 10ft. of movement as a bonus action from Storm Sorcerer


Yes, and it is totally null and void once you have Wind Soul with 60ft flying speed.  :Small Smile: 




> You do make a compelling argument for an alternative build. The build doesn't change at all beside switching the stats of STR and DEX, after all.
> 
> I do find the flavor of high STR cooler (because hammers), but the Flame Blade in the Sorcerer list does change things a bit, and you can always flavor it as a Flame Hammer.


You can change its element to lightning or thunder with your metamagic. The flavor should be included then.  :Small Wink: 




> First off, it uses spell attack (it _looks_ like a Scimitar, but it isn't one), so it makes you SAD. This means that as long as you have a slot of level 2 or higher, and are willing to sacrifice your concentration slot (which is actually somewhat less valuable on a blaster build), you don't even need either a high DEX or STR. This lets us go with the following array: 8/14/14/8/13/16 as a V.Human, or even  8/12/16/8/13/16 for more tankiness but more reliance on Flame Blade. Honestly, DEX saves are less important when you have Absorb Elements, so the latter array might even be a better idea.


True, but the _Flame Blade_ allows those melee spell attacks only with your actions, so when using it for an opportunity attack, you are reliant on STR or DEX for the hit modifier. Granted, the damage is independent of the stat, but the to-hit-chance is slightly affected. Alternatively, you could stay with War Caster and simply cast _Booming Blade_ for the melee spell attack and the additional damage.
Yet, when you do opportunity attacks of any kind, you can't use your reaction for _Absorb Elements_.

Besides, I'm not so sure anymore that _Flame Blade_ actually can be used for opportunity attacks. Ask your DM.  :Small Confused:

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## bendking

> That's easily remedied:
> Choose Sorcerer for first level at character creation, not Cleric. That way you won't have CHA + WIS saving throw proficiencies, but CHA + CON. You still get all armor proficiencies and martial weapon proficiency due to them being a Divine Domain feature, not a class ability.
> 
> The advantage on CON saves is statistically worth much less than the proficiency bonus. A high CON score (14 or 16) should do the trick on additional +2 or +3 modifiers. With your stat array at level 1 you'd already have a +5 modifier on CON saves. With magic items and buffs (e.g. _Bless_) you should have a +8 modifier on CON saves, and at level 9 you automatically pass all concentration checks for <22 damage hits.
> 
> War Caster is less efficient on sorcerers than other casters, and you should only take it if you get something useful out of the other parts of the feat: opportunity attack spells or somatic & material components handled when wielding shield + implement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Regarding Warcaster - it is what the entire tankiness of the build is relied upon. The bonus to con saves is is just a bonus.
We need the other two benefits, and especially the OAs, if we're to properly tank - having high AC is not enough to call yourself a tank, you also need to be sticky.
And of course, if we are to tank, we _will_ use a shield and an implement, which makes Warcaster necessary.
I agree about starting with Sorcerer, I simply didn't mention it in the original post. I'll update it once I've reached a conclusion on the best way do that.

RAW, Flame Blade doesn't allow OAs, and Crawford seems to agree. So the DEX or STR aren't even relevant for that. Honestly, if your DM doesn't allow OAs with Flame Blade I think you can pretty much go ahead and throw in the garbage bin, because we are not going to be using our turns to attack with it, we have more important things to do with our action (like BLASTING FOOLS). I do think Warcaster makes a case for allowing OAs with it, but it still isn't RAW.

Thus, I feel like we have to ditch the whole Flame Blade idea. The whole point of using a weapon was the OAs, and it doesn't have that.
Now, we still have to choose whether to use a DEX or STR weapon. I think I'll go with DEX because it allows us to get the following array: 8/14/14/8/13/16 without feeling bad about not having 15 in DEX (as opposed to STR) and still have 14 CON, and we'll just use a finesse weapon in hand.

You can make a case for a non-Warcaster build, but then I think we would simply have to go with a pure blaster build (with really good AC, but no stickiness, thus not a tank).
That is not exactly the intent of my build though, since I really want to make this guy good for both blasting _and_ tanking.

----------


## Rerem115

It's a similar build to one of the earliest in the thread, but it's distinctly different enough that I feel safe in posting it.

*The Unstoppable Archer*

Wood Elf Samurai Fighter, Outlander background; if available, take the Eberron variant and take Expertise in Stealth, Athletics, or Survival.  Any other skills are up to you, but consider Persuasion heavily.

Point-buy 10 17 14 8 15 10; can dump Strength or Charisma instead.

Take Archery Fighting Style and a longbow, but keep a shield and a rapier at hand if things get hairy.  At level 3, pick your archetype, at 4, take Resilient: Dexterity, and at 6, take Elven Accuracy and bump Wisdom.  At 8, take Sharpshooter.  

Your build is now fully on-line; you have on-demand 3d20 Sharpshooter attacks and Action Surge, proficiency in 4 saving throws, and the skills needed to navigate the wild or convince the suspicious guard to let you through, thanks to your background and the inherent bonus to Persuasion offered by your archetype. 

From here, the build is up to you.  Dip Ranger for even more exploration goodies and another Fighting Style.  Switch to Rogue, double down on your skill utilities.  Take some levels in Cleric or Druid for some magical utility.  Or, just stay Fighter and enjoy your even greater martial prowess.

----------


## Theaitetos

> Thus, I feel like we have to ditch the whole Flame Blade idea. The whole point of using a weapon was the OAs, and it doesn't have that.
> Now, we still have to choose whether to use a DEX or STR weapon. I think I'll go with DEX because it allows us to get the following array: 8/14/14/8/13/16 without feeling bad about not having 15 in DEX (as opposed to STR) and still have 14 CON, and we'll just use a finesse weapon in hand.
> 
> You can make a case for a non-Warcaster build, but then I think we would simply have to go with a pure blaster build (with really good AC, but no stickiness, thus not a tank).
> That is not exactly the intent of my build though, since I really want to make this guy good for both blasting _and_ tanking.


OK, keep War Caster. Because I have bad news: Cantrips cannot be upcast with a spell slot. That means the Heart of the Storm feature cannot ever be triggered by Booming Blade.  :Small Frown: 

I do have two ideas how to remedy this, however,  how much do you like jackals?  :Small Big Grin: 
The spell you need to make everything alright again is _Thunderous Smite_. It's a Bonus Action 1st-level spell with thunder damage. So it would trigger Heart of the Storm *and* can be used together with _Booming Blade_ (since it's a cantrip and you can only cast cantrips after casting a spell with a bonus action)!

The problem is that _Thunderous Smite_, like all smites, is a Paladin spell Some other smites are available for non-paladin subclasses, but this one is not. There is one official supplement by WotC though, where it is available to clerics with the Zeal domain: Plane Shift: Amonkhet. Clerics of the jackal-headed goddess Hazoret have this spell as 1st-level domain spell. The Zeal domain is pretty much the same thing as the Tempest domain, except it's not Lightning+Thunder but Fire+Thunder.

1) So you could ask your DM to either allow you _Thunderous Smite_ as your domain spell (since there is precedent with the Zeal domain) or to allow you the Zeal domain itself (exact same except all lightning bonus → fire bonus). This is definitely the way I'd go, however it's not completely RAW anymore.

2) The other option, perfectly RAW, is to give up on the Tempest Cleric 2 and go with Paladin 2 instead. This would change several things:
± It would require you to start with Paladin at first level (to get the Heavy Armor proficiency) and you would therefore have CHA+WIS save proficiency again  instead of the sorcerers CHA+CON.± You'd have to return to a STR build (for paladin multiclass requirement).- Changing cleric to paladin would also slow your spell slot progression by 1 level (not much), but your spell progression would remain unchanged.- You would lose access to seven 1st-level cleric spells (_Bane, Cause Fear, Create or Destroy Water, Guiding Bolt, Healing Word, Inflict Wounds, Sanctuary_), none of whom are really worth it imo; the Tempest domain spells (_Fog Cloud, Thunderwave_) are also sorcerer spells, so you get those back next level if you want to.+ You would gain five 1st-level paladin spells (_Thunderous Smite, Compelled Duel, Divine Favor, Heroism, Searing Smite_), none of whom are particularly interesting except the two smites.- You would lose 3 cleric cantrips (WIS based).+ You would gain Divine Smite (sorcadin) and could transform every hit into radiant pain as needed. Right in the very first round you could go _Thunderous Smite_ + (twinned) _Booming Blade_ + Heart of the Storm + Divine Smite(s) on enemies around you.- You would lose "Wrath of the Storm" and "Channel Divinity: Destructive Wrath", which probably hurts the most. The "Wrath of the Storm" reaction is essentially gained back at level 16 (as "Storm's Fury", Sorc 14); if you want a replacement, I'd suggest Hellish Rebuke (maybe from the Rakdos Cultist background in Ravnica).- You would lose "Channel Divinity: Destructive Wrath", which probably hurts the most: Not being able to maximize damage once per short rest anymore probably kills this for you, right? After all, that was the entire point  :Small Frown: - Before you worry about the CON saves though, I have more bad news: _Thunderous Smite_ is a concentration spell, and even if you cast _Booming Blade_ right afterwards, you wouldn't be able to concentrate on any other spells; so CON saves are no problem ever again, but you can't keep up any buffs like _Bless_. It's a steep price to pay, but I don't see any other chance to consistently trigger Heart of the Storm *and* use Booming Blade. You could use Quickened Spell with non-concentration spells, but then we'd go back to being ordinary blasters+ You get a fighting style of your choice; I'd recommend "Dueling" (+2 weapon bonus damage), but you could also take "Defense" (+1AC) to boost your defenses, or "Blessed Warrior" (2 cleric cantrips) for flavor (_Thaumaturgy, Guidance_) and/or damage type versatility (_Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead_).+ You get 6 hitpoints  :Small Smile: 

So either that build would rely on 1) pleading to the DM for the Zeal/Tempest domain or 2) become a Sorcadin.

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## bendking

> OK, keep War Caster. Because I have bad news: Cantrips cannot be upcast with a spell slot. That means the Heart of the Storm feature cannot ever be triggered by Booming Blade. 
> 
> I do have two ideas how to remedy this, however,  how much do you like jackals? 
> The spell you need to make everything alright again is _Thunderous Smite_. It's a Bonus Action 1st-level spell with thunder damage. So it would trigger Heart of the Storm *and* can be used together with _Booming Blade_ (since it's a cantrip and you can only cast cantrips after casting a spell with a bonus action)!
> 
> The problem is that _Thunderous Smite_, like all smites, is a Paladin spell Some other smites are available for non-paladin subclasses, but this one is not. There is one official supplement by WotC though, where it is available to clerics with the Zeal domain: Plane Shift: Amonkhet. Clerics of the jackal-headed goddess Hazoret have this spell as 1st-level domain spell. The Zeal domain is pretty much the same thing as the Tempest domain, except it's not Lightning+Thunder but Fire+Thunder.
> 
> 1) So you could ask your DM to either allow you _Thunderous Smite_ as your domain spell (since there is precedent with the Zeal domain) or to allow you the Zeal domain itself (exact same except all lightning bonus → fire bonus). This is definitely the way I'd go, however it's not completely RAW anymore.
> 
> ...


Well, that blows.

First off, going Sorcadin is definitely not an option in my eyes, since the whole point was Destructive Wrath. Thus, we are left with the Zeal option.
I'm not sure of that Domain's balance (seems OP), and it isn't allowed in AL, so I won't consider it for this build (though it is an option if your DM allows). You could, alternatively, ask for Thundering Smite on your domain from your DM but then it isn't RAW, so I won't entertain that thought too much either. They are worth mentioning, though, so thank you!
That said, even if we did have Thundering Smite, sacrificing concentration is quite the issue in my eyes. And it only triggers Heart of the Storm once, and that is when you use Thundering Smite (though it is quite effective as a bonus action spell).

Here's the thing though: I don't necessarily want this guy to be attacking instead of casting spells. This is a blaster, not a fighter.
The point of Booming Blade + Heart of the Storm was to have awesome OA. Without Heart of the Storm, the OA is not as good, but still quite nice. It begs the question though, whether Warcaster is even worth it at this point. To be honest... I'm not sure, but since I want this guy to be a tank, I will keep it.
This leaves us with a great (if not amazing) OA,  we are still incredible blasters, and still trigger Heart of the Storm when we cast Thunder/Lightning spells in melee, which will still be very often since we aim to use mostly Thunder/Lightning spells and can easily use Elemental Spell whenever we want. Honestly, not triggering HotS in OAs isn't a _huge_ deal.
Besides, we can always use our OA to do Chromatic Orb/Scorching Ray if we really want that Heart of the Storm triggered, but I think it's better to stick with Booming Blade most of the time.

Thus, I think what I will do is stick with the original build, using either the original array or the DEX array which allows 14 CON instead of 12 (probably better, since +1 CON is more important than 10ft. of movement when you have the bonus action movement of Storm Sorcerer).

----------


## Theaitetos

You know, I think this tweet by Jeremy Crawford isn't right. He said that the requirement for a spell to be upcast is that the spell uses a spell slot, but the rules in the book say something different.

RAW clearly allows cantrips (0-level spells) to be upcast with a higher level spell slot:




> *Cantrips*
> Every spell has a level from 0 to 9. A spell's level is a general indicator of how powerful it is. with the lowly (but still impressive) _magic missile_ at 1st level and the earth-shaking _wish_ at 9th. Cantrips  simple but powerful spells that characters can cast almost by rote  are level 0. The higher a spell's level, the higher level a spellcaster must be to use that spell.





> *Cantrips*
> A cantrip is a spell that can be cast at will, without using a spell slot and without being prepared in advance. Repeated practice has fixed the spell in the caster's mind and infused the caster with the magic needed to produce the effect over and over. A cantrip's spell level is 0.


i.e. "cantrips *can* be cast without using a spell slot", not "cantrips *have to* be cast without using a spell slot".




> *Casting a Spell at a Higher Level*
> When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts _magic missile_ using one of her 2nd-level slots, that _magic missile_ is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.
> Some spells, such as _magic missile_ and _cure wounds_, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell's description.


There is no mention of a requirement for the original spell to be using a spell slot. The only requirement is for it to be a "spell" and for it to have a "spell level". The mechanic says that you can use slots of higher level than the spell to increase the level of the spell.

The new UA Class Feature Variants even mentions it several times that "Cantrips are Spells!" and that everything that applies to spells also applies to cantrips unless it's specifically excluded.




> *Rule Tip: Cantrips Are Spells*
> Cantrips are 0-level spells, which dont use spell slots. When a feature applies to spells, that feature applies to cantrips, unless the feature specifies that the spells must be of 1st level or higher or must expend a spell slot.


So I think we should ignore Jeremy Crawford's tweet and stick with RAW: Cantrips can be upcast like any other spell. _Booming Blade_ can trigger Heart of the Storm as desired.






> The point of Booming Blade + Heart of the Storm was to have awesome OA.


As for the opportunity attacks: I'm not sure if they even happen that often. An enemy might decide to simply stay next to you and attack. Enemies might also choose to Disengage to avoid OA, or they have other means of avoiding them.

War Caster is still doubtful in its use. It doesn't make you tanky, it gives you 3 distinct capabilities:Advantage on concentration saves, that are triggered by damageAn OA can be used with a spell instead of a melee attack.Somatic components can be cast while holding weapons/shields in both of your hands.
Why I am still doubtful about its usefulness:You have a high CON score and are proficient with CON saves as a Sorcerer. You easily beat concentration saves beyond tier 1. Also, check your spell list if you even have concentration spells at low levels! Ignoring your cleric spells, Warding Wind is probably your first concentration spell (planned for character level 6 on your spell list)!Opportunity attacks are not frequent in my opinion, and I guess most enemies around will be melee and therefore attack you, rather than take opportunity attacks. Also, OAs compete with your other abilities for that precious Reaction once every turn: casting _Shield, Absorb Elements, Hellish Rebuke, Counterspell_,  or using your Wrath of the Storm & Storm's Fury abilities.Remember that when you hold a shield and an arcane focus, you need War Caster only for spells with "S" or "V, S" components. "V" spells work fine, and once a spell has a material component (without gold cost & not used up), i.e. "V, S, M" or "S, M" you can cast it without a free hand (and without War Caster). The quarterstaff can double as one-handed weapon and as arcane focus for your sorcerer spells, and the shield can be the divine focus for the cleric spells. None of your abilities require you to have a hand free, so I'd suggest to go through your spell list and carefully check all spells on whether they can only be cast with a free hand ["S" or "V, S" or "V, S, M(gold cost and/or consumed)]. For example, the somatic-component spells _Grease_, [i]Web], and _Bless_ can be cast with weapon and shield in hand, as they also have non-gold, non-consumed material components.



In general, I think the Storm Sorcerer is more of a battlefield controller than a blaster. None of your sorcerer abilities enhance your damage  that's the Draconic Sorcerer's job  but your skills allow you to shape the battlefield itself:
If enemies stay close to you they get seriously hurt (Heart of the Storm), if they melee you they get hurt (Storm's Fury, +Wrath of the Storm), and if they stand too far away you can pick them off.
Your bonus action mobility (Tempestuous Magic) is super powerful as it makes it impossible to pin you down: You don't provoke opportunity attacks and you can escape all grappled and restrained conditions; these conditions prevent you from moving yourself (by fixing your speed at 0), but they don't prevent you from being moved by something else (the wind moves you, it doesn't grant you speed).
Your storm cantrips work to this end as well. _Lightning Lure_ pulls enemies into your control zone and _Thunderclap_ punishes them from staying inside. Your other spells like _Wall of Fire_ are also battlefield control spells, and your ability to push & pull people around helps triggering its damage frequently.
You need to play to these strengths to cause damage, otherwise you'd always fall behind the Draconic Sorcerer in terms of (lightning) power.

Besides, if you give up on the War Caster feat, then you can take other feats to improve this battlefield control:
Mobile might be useful later, as you can avoid opportunity attacks from enemies you targeted (hit or miss!) with a melee attack (including melee spell attacks like _Booming Blade_ or _Shocking Grasp_!) without spending your Bonus Action, and 10ft speed increase is good for a close area controller (should also stack with the 60ft flying speed at capstone!).
One other possible choice (though not great) would be Spell Sniper, as it doubles the range of _Booming Blade_ (and other attack roll spells) and you could use reach weapons for _Booming Blade_ attacks; you could achieve the same thing with Distant Spell, but that metamagic usually sucks.
Another interesting option is Magic Initiate (Warlock). You'd get the evergreen Eldritch Blast for long-range attacks, since you really suffer in that department, and another cantrip (both based on CHA!), and you get _Armor of Agathys_ or _Hellish Rebuke_. The downside is that you can only cast these two spells only once and only at their lowest level¹, so Agathys would quickly turn useless as you level up; but Hellish Rebuke would stay useful, as it's a reaction to anyone damaging you within 60ft, and you can metamagic it to lightning/thunder damage, and trigger Heart of the Storm and maximize it via Channel Divinity: the first enemy archer or caster to hit you with something takes 20 lightning damage to the face. You already have similar reaction abilities, but they are very limited, as Wrath of the Storm is usable only against attackers within 5ft range and only twice per long rest (your WIS modifier), while Storm's Fury is only obtained at level 16 (Cleric 2/Sorc 14) and only works against melee attacks.
¹[Some DMs read "learn the spell" from the Magic Initiate feat as "you know it and can therefore cast it with other spellslots", but it's usually not allowed.]



As far as the spell list is concerned, I'd take _Grease_ over _Web_. Oddly enough, Web doesn't restrain a creature that is moved into the webbed area outside its own turn.  :Small Confused:  So pushing or pulling creatures into the _Web_ won't restrain them; the restrain would only start on their turn (DEX save, STR save). _Grease_ is better in this regard, as it immediately forces the DEX save to avoid falling prone, so your party can push/pull them into the _Grease_ and immediately attack their prone enemies. It's only 1minute compared to _Web_'s 1hour, but it doesn't require concentration!

And take a closer look at the Cleric spells: All cleric spells are based on your WIS modifier and somewhat more easily resisted/evaded than your CHA-based spells, so non-offensive cleric spells are best. For cantrips: _Sacred Flame_ > _Toll the Dead_ imo, as radiant damage is less often resisted than necrotic damage, is useful against enemies with non-fire-suppressed regeneration, and is more free in line of sight requirements. _Light_ is definitely super useful (for those without darkvision), but for flavor I'd recommend Thaumaturgy:



> Your voice booms up to three times as loud as normal for 1 minute. THUNDER!You cause flames to flicker, brighten, dim, or change color for 1 minute. LIGHTNING!You cause harmless tremors in the ground for 1 minute. THUNDER!You create an instantaneous sound that originates from a point of your choice within range, such as a rumble of *thunder*, the cry of a raven, or ominous whispers. THUNDER!You instantaneously cause an unlocked door or window to fly open or slam shut. THUNDER!You alter the appearance of your eyes for 1 minute. THUNDER-GOD!


It's as if this spell was written with _Thor_ in mind.  :Small Tongue: 



It's still sad that _Thunderous Smite_ isn't available, because it combines so perfectly with _Booming Blade_: It deals thunder damage and it knocks your enemy prone  and standing up is a movement that triggers booming blade!  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## LudicSavant

> As for the opportunity attacks: I'm not sure if they even happen that often. An enemy might decide to simply stay next to you and attack. Enemies might also choose to Disengage to avoid OA, or they have other means of avoiding them.


A quick note on this:

Getting enemies to stay still and attack you, or use their action on Disengage, is generally _the point_ of getting a strong OA on a sufficiently tanky character.  

If a character's using Disengage to avoid your scary OA, that's a big win for you, not them.  In terms of payoff in that situation it's almost like you used an action-free, no-save debuff that ate their Action.

Likewise, if you're a durable enough tank then attacking you might be a waste of an action, or at the very least a considerable loss in efficiency compared to attacking someone else in the party.

Some more detailed explanation/discussion here.

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## Theaitetos

I agree in general, LudicSavant, those are very good points. However, in this specific case, it's better if the enemies move away instead of attacking, because a non-Draconic sorcerer is really squishy (4 hit points) and those 2 levels in cleric don't change that.

So _"Option A) They attack you. This is bad, because you're very hard to kill."_ doesn't work, because you are NOT very hard to kill. The storm sorcerer makes this option extremely unattractive by playing hard to hit (Plate Armor+Shield) and when you hit via retribution: _"Option A) They attack you. This is bad, because I'm going to take massive lightning damage (Hellish Rebuke+Heart of the Storm) if I'm even hitting this guy."_

And if you leave ooc thinking aside, it's likely enemies will act according to their knowledge: They don't know that you can't dish out maxed Hellish Rebukes & Hearts of the Storm more than once or twice. They just know they get badly zapped whenever they hit the storm sorcerer.

It's one of the reasons why few people play storm sorcerers: All their skills are meant for close range AoEs, but they're way too squishy to withstand melee engagements. Not getting hit and staying mobile is the best way to survive.

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## MaxWilson

> I agree in general, LudicSavant, those are very good points. However, in this specific case, it's better if the enemies move away instead of attacking, because a non-Draconic sorcerer is really squishy (d4 hit dice) and those 2 levels in cleric don't change that.


It's only d4 in AD&D. In 5e, the lowest tier of HP is d6.

Levels in cleric give you a decent AC which, combined with Shield/Absorb Elements, make even d6 HP relatively tanky as PCs go.

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## bendking

> -snip-


Regarding the cantrip upcasting - I'm inclined to agree that RAW it's possible, and I also don't really see any reason to now allow it. I doubt it somehow breaks any facet of the game.
I will say I don't think it's critical to the build working, it's good either way, but it's definitely a nice thing to have for your OAs, though mostly if there's more than one person around you (I probably won't waste a level 1 slot for +3/+4 damage that easily).

Regarding Warcaster, I think you're somewhat underestimating the power of a good OA. It forces people to stick next to you, which is what you want to do as a tank, as Ludic explained.
The advantage on CON saves and somewhat easier casting for a handful of spells are cherries on top, as far as I'm concerned.
i feel like it would give your more battlefield control than any other feat, which brings me to...

Magic Initiate: I do value Eldritch Blast, but I don't value Hellish Rebuke very much. Seeing as it's only once per day, I don't think it makes up for losing the OA threat. If we could upcast it, or cast it more than once, I would be more inclined to consider it.
I also wouldn't be a fan of maximizing Hellish Rebuke when I can just as well maximize Fireball for a hell of a lot more value, spread out between 2 or more people.

I do like all of your points on basically controlling the battlefield with all your abilities, and you definitely pointed out a few moves you can pull with this guy I haven't considered, so thanks for that! I'll keep notes of these :)
That said, Storm's Fury won't come online in most games, to be honest, but it's quite powerful, so I guess it's useful to keep notice.

I see what you're saying about Grease, but it doesn't have all of the advantages Web has, i.e. disadvantage on DEX saves, restrain, difficult terrain, big area... I know it's a weird spell regarding it's start of turn status, but it's still super effective. You could still use Grease until level 5, though.

And yes, Thaumaturgy is surely a thematic must. I might just replace Toll the Dead with it, but it's a hard choice. Guidance is top-tier, Light is necessary for us humans, and we probably want either Toll the Dead or Sacred Flame, so it's tough to put it in.

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## Theaitetos

> It's only d4 in AD&D. In 5e, the lowest tier of HP is d6.


Sorry, I meant 4hp per level, not d4 hit dice per level.






> I see what you're saying about _Grease_, but it doesn't have all of the advantages _Web_ has, i.e. disadvantage on DEX saves, restrain, difficult terrain, big area... I know it's a weird spell regarding it's start of turn status, but it's still super effective. You could still use _Grease_ until level 5, though.


Well, yes and no. _Web_ is the stronger spell, but with significant drawbacks, that make it not worth it imo. Comparison of _Web_'s advantages (+), disadvantages (), and no/unclear differences (±):± Both spells create difficult terrain.± The Restrained and Prone conditions are very similar to each other.± The size is _Web_'s 20ft square against _Grease_'s 10ft square.¹+ A "-2" debuff on DEX saves; statistically, because only those who fail their DEX saves AND don't free themselves (Action + STR check) get the disadvantage on DEX saves. _Web_ is a concentration spell, i.e. you lose important stuff like _Bless, Warding Wind, Wall of Fire, _ _Web_'s debuff mechanic is HORRIBLE!²

¹: The size difference can be good or bad, depending on placement of everyone. If your enemies are far away, a _Web_ can slow them down and hinder them significantly, no doubt. But when your party has engaged the enemy, you're less likely to use _Web_ (so you don't affect your allies) while placement of _Grease_ should still be very easy.

²: I can't emphasize enough how bad _Web_'s debuff mechanic is. An enemy will only get debuffed (DEX save → Restrained) at the beginning of his own turn or when entering during his own turn! Casting _Web_ has absolutely no effect at first! You have to wait for the enemy to begin his turn for the spell to have an effect, and even if affected that enemy can then decide to break free with an Action + STR check. A creature who managed either of those can then roam freely (although difficult terrain), and it is not affected even if it ends its turn inside the Web! A creature that succeeded on its DEX saving throw can even Help others to break free (it's a STR _check_, not a STR _save_!).
Imagine casting a spell and then having to wait for the enemy to finish his turn before the spell has any use for you & your party. The spell is therefore also extremely dependent on initiative order: If you surprise _Web_ the enemy and then all your fellow party members attack, well, _Web_ still won't have any effect until the enemy had its first turn, i.e. the enemy is not Restrained (so no disadvantage on DEX saves for them or advantage on your party's attack rolls).
This is why I think it's difficult to make good use of _Web_ in combat. It's good to slow down an enemy group, or to restrict access to a certain area, but it's not a good combat debuff at all, imo.

_Grease_, in contrast, forces a DEX save (to not fall Prone) immediately when the spell is cast immediately when a creature enters the area (voluntarily or pushed/pulled) immediately when a creature ends its turn in the area.
This is really powerful, as you can _Grease_ the enemy and then immediately melee attack (e.g. _Booming Blade_) them with advantage. Or you can pull/push them into the area and immediately attack with advantage. Or when the enemy ends its turn inside, it falls prone again, and your party can attack with advantage on their turns (sneak attack!).
Instead of using advantage, you could also attack with a ranged spell attack (e.g. _Fire Bolt_) without suffering disadvantage for close combat; this makes sense for speed reduction spells like _Ray of Frost_ or powered-up _Eldritch Blast_, because with their speed reduced by 10ft they can't get out of the _Grease_'d area on their turn (usually speed is 30ft): Reduced speed is 20ft, standing up from Prone costs half (10ft), and then moving through difficult terrain costs double, so they can move like 5ft in any direction, which means they are unlikely to end their turn outside the _Grease_'d area, and thereby fall prone again.
_Grease_'s only weakness is that Prone gives disadvantage on attacks from afar.  :Small Sigh: 

Damn, I went totally off-topic here  :Small Furious: 
But I like to play sorcerers and was always furious that only wizards got Grease in 5e, until the new UA gave us sorcerers Grease as well!  :Small Big Grin: 

Speaking of spell lists, I think _Ray of Frost_ is more thematic for the Storm Sorcerer than _Fire Bolt_. The bolt deals 1 more damage on average (up to +4 damage @ level 17), has a range of 120ft over the ray's 60ft, and can target objects. The ray has the -10ft movement debuff and cold is less often resisted than fire.
In my opinion the movement debuff beats the 1dmg, as it plays into the hands of the Storm Sorcerer's movement/area control. Many groups don't play much combat at long ranges (60ft to 120ft), so it depends on the way your group plays; but I'd definitely take the ray over the bolt, if you take another long range spell later (like Chill Touch) or a feat like Magic Initiate (Eldritch Blast) or Spell Sniper (double range).

And _Message_ is useless and not even fluffy for a Storm Sorcerer shouldn't be whispering, but thundering with a booming voice!  :Small Wink:  Consider replacing it with another powerful forced movement spell: Lightning Lure. It moves enemies back into your Heart of the Storm zone and will trigger it when upcast.

Light can easily replaced by items. Goggles of Night (uncommon) give 60ft darkvision.




> Regarding Warcaster, I think you're somewhat underestimating the power of a good OA. It forces people to stick next to you, which is what you want to do as a tank, as Ludic explained.


That's true, I'm just trying to figure out if that happens frequently enough to make it worth it. Will enemies actually try to move away from you? Let's consider Ludic's methods of peel, pressures & punishes, that incline them towards staying next to you anyway, even without the threat of a _Booming Blade_ OA: You're a powerful spellcaster and taking you down has a significant priority. If you've hit them with Booming Blade in a previous turn, they don't want to trigger the rider. If you haven't, they can still move around you (without leaving your reach) to take options B, C, or D. If you wield a powerful (magic) weapon [with your martial weapon proficiency], it doesn't require _Booming Blade_ to make an OA very threatening.
And again, Opportunity Attacks compete for your Reaction with other abilities: You might want to keep _Shield_, _Absorb Elements_, or _Counterspell_ available.

I guess it depends on your party. If there's a squishy wizard in the backline, then you don't need your Reaction for _Counterspell_ & the enemy is more likely to move to that backline. But if your other party members are relatively tanky themselves, _Counterspell_ is probably your responsibility & the enemy can take you on in lack of much squishier targets.

I still think War Caster is one of the best feats to take for this build, but let's look at other options and priorities too. Like, is this build too vulnerable to attacks that don't aim at AC [i.e.: squishy casters choose Absorb Elements for a reason]? Do we need ASIs elsewhere? Is War Caster worth it before level 5  considering that Booming Blade only adds the rider but no damage to the attack?




> And yes, Thaumaturgy is surely a thematic must. I might just replace Toll the Dead with it, but it's a hard choice. Guidance is top-tier, Light is necessary for us humans, and we probably want either Toll the Dead or Sacred Flame, so it's tough to put it in.


Hmmm, what if we don't take a human?  :Small Confused:  We could delay the War Caster feat to level 6 (once Booming Blade is upgraded), so Variant Human isn't an absolute must. But I guess the CHA→20 progression would be delayed for 4 more levels.  :Small Annoyed: 
Otherwise I would have kept two other options in mind, both with darkvision, CHA+2 & CON+1 bonus, and CHA as spellcasting ability: Levistus Tiefling (Ray of Frost cantrip, Armor of Agathys (lvl2), Darkness, resistance to fire) and Scourge Aasimar (Light cantrip, Healing Hands 1/rest, Radiant Consumption 1/rest, resistance to radiant & necrotic). The Tiefling would enhance defense with AoA, add a valuable cantrip and boost fire defense. The Aasimar would enhance the damage in the zone around the sorcerer, with emergency heal and fancy resistances. The Tiefling could really have impressive innate energy defenses at the end: resistance to Fire, Cold, Poison, and immunity to Thunder, Lightning.

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## MaxWilson

> ²: I can't emphasize enough how bad _Web_'s debuff mechanic is. An enemy will only get debuffed (DEX save → Restrained) at the beginning of his own turn or when entering during his own turn! Casting _Web_ has absolutely no effect at first! You have to wait for the enemy to begin his turn for the spell to have an effect, and even if affected that enemy can then decide to break free with an Action + STR check. A creature who managed either of those can then roam freely (although difficult terrain), and it is not affected even if it ends its turn inside the Web! A creature that succeeded on its DEX saving throw can even Help others to break free (it's a STR _check_, not a STR _save_!).


I feel you are greatly underestimating Web here.

Restrained condition from Web grants advantage on ranged attacks, whereas Prone from Grease forces *disadvantage*.

Restrained prevents movement.

Web forces creatures who fail the save to waste actions getting out, and even then or still might not work--they're still Restrained and they completely wasted a turn! If they Help each other to get out they're eating even more actions.

You can Cutting Words a Strength check to get out to make them fail.

You can afford to Web an area with allies in it, because if too many allies and not enough enemies get stuck you can drop your concentration and un-stick them at any time, even right before an enemy makes an attack roll! The risk of friendly fire is lower than it appears.

Synergy: If an enemy breaks free of Web with their action and struggles out of the difficult terrain to attack a PC, readied Repelling Blast or Shove attacks or anything else with knockback can force an immediate save-or-be-trapped-again, and then they have to save *again* at the start of their next turn. It's effectively disadvantage on the save. And the enemy wasted their action getting free just for that?

Synergies: Bear Spirit, Hex. Nuff said.

Web is a great spell in the right terrain, and it eats more enemy actions than Grease does and plays better with ranged attacks. It's definitely not as horrible as you think it is.

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## bendking

> Well, yes and no. _Web_ is the stronger spell, but with significant drawbacks, that make it not worth it imo. Comparison of _Web_'s advantages (+), disadvantages (), and no/unclear differences (±):± Both spells create difficult terrain.± The Restrained and Prone conditions are very similar to each other.± The size is _Web_'s 20ft square against _Grease_'s 10ft square.¹+ A "-2" debuff on DEX saves; statistically, because only those who fail their DEX saves AND don't free themselves (Action + STR check) get the disadvantage on DEX saves. _Web_ is a concentration spell, i.e. you lose important stuff like _Bless, Warding Wind, Wall of Fire, _ _Web_'s debuff mechanic is HORRIBLE!²
> 
> ...


OK, OK... Grease is good. I think you've made a very valid case of taking it instead of Web. That said, I _really_ like the Disadvantage on DEX saves (which Grease doesn't give), and it is especially good with Thunderball. It can up your DPR immensely by the next round, which works with the debuff mechanic, even if it doesn't help your allies until then.
To be honest, I'm not quite sure what to pick anymore. Keeping Bless up is really useful, and might tip me into Grease camp for this build specifically.




> Speaking of spell lists, I think _Ray of Frost_ is more thematic for the Storm Sorcerer than _Fire Bolt_. The bolt deals 1 more damage on average (up to +4 damage @ level 17), has a range of 120ft over the ray's 60ft, and can target objects. The ray has the -10ft movement debuff and cold is less often resisted than fire.
> In my opinion the movement debuff beats the 1dmg, as it plays into the hands of the Storm Sorcerer's movement/area control. Many groups don't play much combat at long ranges (60ft to 120ft), so it depends on the way your group plays; but I'd definitely take the ray over the bolt, if you take another long range spell later (like Chill Touch) or a feat like Magic Initiate (Eldritch Blast) or Spell Sniper (double range).
> 
> And _Message_ is useless and not even fluffy for a Storm Sorcerer shouldn't be whispering, but thundering with a booming voice!  Consider replacing it with another powerful forced movement spell: Lightning Lure. It moves enemies back into your Heart of the Storm zone and will trigger it when upcast.
> 
> Light can easily replaced by items. Goggles of Night (uncommon) give 60ft darkvision.


I just updated the spell list, can't argue with those cantrip choices.




> That's true, I'm just trying to figure out if that happens frequently enough to make it worth it. Will enemies actually try to move away from you? Let's consider Ludic's methods of peel, pressures & punishes, that incline them towards staying next to you anyway, even without the threat of a _Booming Blade_ OA: You're a powerful spellcaster and taking you down has a significant priority. If you've hit them with Booming Blade in a previous turn, they don't want to trigger the rider. If you haven't, they can still move around you (without leaving your reach) to take options B, C, or D. If you wield a powerful (magic) weapon [with your martial weapon proficiency], it doesn't require _Booming Blade_ to make an OA very threatening.
> And again, Opportunity Attacks compete for your Reaction with other abilities: You might want to keep _Shield_, _Absorb Elements_, or _Counterspell_ available.
> 
> I guess it depends on your party. If there's a squishy wizard in the backline, then you don't need your Reaction for _Counterspell_ & the enemy is more likely to move to that backline. But if your other party members are relatively tanky themselves, _Counterspell_ is probably your responsibility & the enemy can take you on in lack of much squishier targets.
> 
> I still think War Caster is one of the best feats to take for this build, but let's look at other options and priorities too. Like, is this build too vulnerable to attacks that don't aim at AC [i.e.: squishy casters choose Absorb Elements for a reason]? Do we need ASIs elsewhere? Is War Caster worth it before level 5  considering that Booming Blade only adds the rider but no damage to the attack?


I agree that Warcaster won't have the same usefulness in all party compositions, and that it competes with your other reactions, but I still don't see any other feat competing with the utility it gives.
If you have any other suggestions, I might be inclined. For example, if you have enough frontliners, you might be inclined to take on the Blaster role more prominently than tanking, and would take Elemental Adpet (Lightning/Thunder), though almost no creatures are resistant to Thunder anyway, and Elemental Spell kind of makes it unnecessary - just change to whichever element the enemy isn't resistant to.





> Hmmm, what if we don't take a human?  We could delay the War Caster feat to level 6 (once Booming Blade is upgraded), so Variant Human isn't an absolute must. But I guess the CHA→20 progression would be delayed for 4 more levels. 
> Otherwise I would have kept two other options in mind, both with darkvision, CHA+2 & CON+1 bonus, and CHA as spellcasting ability: Levistus Tiefling (Ray of Frost cantrip, Armor of Agathys (lvl2), Darkness, resistance to fire) and Scourge Aasimar (Light cantrip, Healing Hands 1/rest, Radiant Consumption 1/rest, resistance to radiant & necrotic). The Tiefling would enhance defense with AoA, add a valuable cantrip and boost fire defense. The Aasimar would enhance the damage in the zone around the sorcerer, with emergency heal and fancy resistances. The Tiefling could really have impressive innate energy defenses at the end: resistance to Fire, Cold, Poison, and immunity to Thunder, Lightning.


I think the only reason for not taking Human is if you're not planning on taking Warcaster. Otherwise delaying CHA by another 4 levels is excruciating.
If this is the case, other races become very appealing, such as Levistus Tiefling,  Scourge Aasimar, who both allow 14 WIS, or Half-Elf which allows 16 CON etc.
These would get you somewhat better stats (or much better in Half-Elf case), and some useful racial traits (or very useful in Aasimar's/Tiefling's case).

----------


## Theaitetos

*Spoiler: Web Wizards vs Grease Geniuses*
Show





> Restrained condition from Web grants advantage on ranged attacks, whereas Prone from Grease forces *disadvantage*.


That's exactly what I wrote.




> Restrained prevents movement.


Overestimated. Prone amidst difficult terrain effectively prevents movement too. And for a build that heavily utilizes _Booming Blade_, it's stupid to completely prevent movement  it's much more useful to make enemy movement extremely small, and moving 1 tile on the grid is as small as it gets.




> Web forces creatures who fail the save to waste actions getting out


Unless they are ranged, or spellcasters. And melee enemies who fall prone on Grease can't do much either, because they can't move far enough to reach your party. So: same result.




> and even then or still might not work--they're still Restrained and they completely wasted a turn!


Provided that you face enemies who are a) likely to fail DEX saves, b) likely to fail STR checks, c) and capable of melee attacks only. Do you know of any enemies, who have no ranged attacks, no ranged spells, low DEX, and low STR? Maybe a wheelchair-bound monk?  :Small Tongue: 




> If they Help each other to get out they're eating even more actions.


A melee mob not being able to reach the enemy always wastes actions. So it doesn't have any opportunity cost for them to use the Help action.




> You can Cutting Words a Strength check to get out to make them fail.


Or you could shoot at them to kill them? Lore Bard Reaction features to make _Web_ work




> You can afford to _Web_ an area with allies in it, because if too many allies and not enough enemies get stuck you can drop your concentration and un-stick them at any time, even right before an enemy makes an attack roll! The risk of friendly fire is lower than it appears.


That would work if _Web_'s effects were simultaneously, but not so much when each person gets stuck individually on their own turn. And if you release concentration, then you just wasted your action and a 2nd-level spell-slot, and probably also the previous spell you were concentrating on.




> Synergy: If an enemy breaks free of Web with their action and struggles out of the difficult terrain to attack a PC, readied Repelling Blast or Shove attacks or anything else with knockback can force an immediate save-or-be-trapped-again, and then they have to save *again* at the start of their next turn. It's effectively disadvantage on the save. And the enemy wasted their action getting free just for that?


No, that's not how it would work. Also, now you need a warlock in your party to use his Action to ready a cantrip just in case. And since you don't know in advance who or how many or where exactly enemies break free, you'll have a nightmare description of that Ready action to make sure you don't accidentally shoot someone out of the Web from the position of your warlock.  :Small Sigh: 

However, your scenario would work with _Grease_, because _Grease_ forces immediate saves  regardless of whose turn it is. You can shoot your _Eldritch Blast_ without readying anything, push them onto the _Grease_, then pull them back out, and push them back in to force 2 saves.

And this build is about a battlefield-controlling Storm Sorcerer, who pushes & pulls people around with Lightning Lures, Thunderwaves, and Booming Blades.




> Synergies: Bear Spirit, _Hex_. Nuff said.


Bear Spirit gives advantages on STR checks, i.e. you want your own party to waste its actions on freeing themselves now?  :Small Confused: 

And _Hex_ is a single target warlock spell: you can debuff *ONE* enemy out of all the webbed ones; better make sure you hex the right enemy  all you need is magic foresight on who will fail his DEX save and then attempt a STR check in the future!
But if you have such a real-life-future-telling warlock player in your party, who doesn't even need concentration for any other spell, why even bother with low level spells like _Web_?  :Small Cool: 




> _Web_ is a great spell in the right terrain, and it eats more enemy actions than _Grease_ does and plays better with ranged attacks. It's definitely not as horrible as you think it is.


Sure, _Web_ is a great spell, if a lot of unlikely preconditions are fulfilled and you don't have any other spells that you want to use your concentration for. Any good caster will tell you that you have to consider very careful which spells you use your concentration on, and if there is a spell out there with pretty much the same effect yet doesn't require concentration, then you take this alternative.

I'll take _Grease_ over _Web_ any day of the week. Unless I'm playing a Drow wizard, because Lolth wills it!








> OK, OK... Grease is good. I think you've made a very valid case of taking it instead of Web. That said, I _really_ like the Disadvantage on DEX saves (which Grease doesn't give), and it is especially good with Thunderball. It can up your DPR immensely by the next round, which works with the debuff mechanic, even if it doesn't help your allies until then.
> To be honest, I'm not quite sure what to pick anymore. Keeping Bless up is really useful, and might tip me into Grease camp for this build specifically.


I calculated things and came up with this number:




> A "-2" debuff on DEX saves; statistically, because only those who fail their DEX saves AND don't free themselves (Action + STR check) get the disadvantage on DEX saves.


This is what it amounts to, a -2 on the saving roll. I took three kinds of enemies with different likelihoods of making their DEX saves, enemy A (90% chance of succeeding on a DEX save), enemy B (50%), and enemey C (10%). I assume that everyone fails their STR checks (unlikely, but easier to calculate). Here's the Table for Advantage/Normal/Disadvantage chances.

When you cast Thunderball without Web, then their chances to fail their Thunderball-DEX is obviously: 10% for A, 50% for B, 90% for C.

Then we look at two successive DEX saves, the first one for Web and the second one for Thunderball. We're only interested in those combinations where the second save is failed, i.e.
(1): success on Web & fail on Thunderball
(2): fail on Web & fail on Thunderball

P(A, 1) = 90% x 10% = 9%
P(B, 1) = 50% x 50% = 25%
P(C, 1) = 10% x 90% = 9%

P(A, 2) = 10% x 19% = ~2%
P(B, 2) = 50% x 75% = ~38%
P(C, 2) = 90% x 99% = ~90%

Adding these together we arrive at the conclusion for how likely it is that they fail their DEX save on Thunderball with Web and without Web:
P(A): 11% instead of 10%
P(B): 63% instead of 50%
P(C): 99% instead of 90%

You get the biggest effect out of debuffing mediocre DEX enemies, a little increase out of low DEX enemies, and basically no effect on high DEX enemies.

If you want you can make this a better estimate by including likelihoods of passing a STR check, or you simply decrease the numbers of the Web effect somewhat to make up for it.

However, if you have a druid in your party: _Entangle_ is the perfect spell here, as it restrains your enemy immediately upon casting, and it works on a STR save! Those with high STR and low DEX make the save on _Entangle_, but are likely to fail the save on _Thunderball_; and those with low STR and high DEX fail the save on _Entangle_ and then get debuffed on their DEX save against _Thunderball_!





> I agree that Warcaster won't have the same usefulness in all party compositions, and that it competes with your other reactions, but I still don't see any other feat competing with the utility it gives.
> If you have any other suggestions, I might be inclined. For example, if you have enough frontliners, you might be inclined to take on the Blaster role more prominently than tanking, and would take Elemental Adpet (Lightning/Thunder), though almost no creatures are resistant to Thunder anyway, and Elemental Spell kind of makes it unnecessary - just change to whichever element the enemy isn't resistant to.


Yes, Elemental Adept is a waste of a perfect ASI. And I think War Caster is essential for the build (at least once you hit level 5), I'm just not a big fan of Variant Humans, that's all.  :Small Big Grin: 




> I think the only reason for not taking Human is if you're not planning on taking Warcaster. Otherwise delaying CHA by another 4 levels is excruciating.


Only for those used to Variant Humans.  :Small Wink:

----------


## bendking

> -snip-
> 
> Yes, Elemental Adept is a waste of a perfect ASI. And I think War Caster is essential for the build (at least once you hit level 5), I'm just not a big fan of Variant Humans, that's all. 
> 
> Only for those used to Variant Humans.


Point taken about Web not being huge for DPR, appreciate the maths.

Regarding the race, I guess you could have a variant build that doesn't take V.Human, I don't think it's essential to go either way, just a matter of preference between 18 & 20 CHA earlier or some cool racial traits.

I will say the Scourge Aasimar ability (Radiant Consumption) makes a lot of sense, but it does quite a lot of self-damage for someone with as little HP as us, thus probably making the Levistus Tiefling perhaps a bit more appealing.

Any more thoughts about the spell list? Fire (Thunder) Shield might be appealing to us, although we can't take a lot of actual damage and don't really want to be hit.

----------


## MaxWilson

*Spoiler: Off topic, Is Web A Terrible Spell?*
Show





> That's exactly what I wrote.


Is it? Even now, I search for "restrained" in your post and all I see is you saying the opposite: "The Restrained and Prone conditions are very similar to each other." No acknowledgement whatsoever that Restrained is far superior in ranged combat.




> Overestimated. Prone amidst difficult terrain effectively prevents movement too. And for a build that heavily utilizes _Booming Blade_, it's stupid to completely prevent movement  it's much more useful to make enemy movement extremely small, and moving 1 tile on the grid is as small as it gets.
> 
> Unless they are ranged, or spellcasters. And melee enemies who fall prone on Grease can't do much either, because they can't move far enough to reach your party. So: same result.


Eh? If they are ranged, or spellcasters, Grease won't force movement at all: they just stand up, and haven't even lost an action. At least Web will possibly grant advantage on the PCs' own ranged attacks, and will force them to lose an action getting free.

If they are _not_ ranged or spellcasters, it's much more useful to prevent enemy movement _at all_ while eating actions than to use up ~25' of enemy movement standing + moving through difficult terrain. Grease will still let a 30' move enemy Dash for a total of 40' movement on their turn (15' penalty for standing, 5' penalty for moving 5' through difficult terrain) whereas Web will prevent that non-melee enemy from moving at all. Obviously none is better than 40' or the enemy wouldn't be moving at all.




> Provided that you face enemies who are a) likely to fail DEX saves, b) likely to fail STR checks, c) and capable of melee attacks only. Do you know of any enemies, who have no ranged attacks, no ranged spells, low DEX, and low STR? Maybe a wheelchair-bound monk?


d20s have a large variance--almost anything can fail a Dex save and a Str check, especially if you factor in things like Cutting Word and the fact that they don't have proficiency in Str checks. E.g. a Young Red Dragon has +4 to Dex saves and +6 to Strength checks. If you've got DC 16, there's 55% chance it's going to fail the Dex save, which means Web just bought you an advantage: if it wastes an action trying to get free, it has a 45% chance of failing (higher if you have Cutting Words or Hex on it), which means it wasted an action for _nothing_, AND you also get advantage on attacks against it, and it has to try against next round and maybe waste more actions for nothing. Otherwise, it wastes an action, so your second-level spell cost it a full round of attacks (and you may be able to Repelling Blast it right back into the web again, depending on party composition). Either way you're certainly getting your money's worth out of that second-level spell slot.




> A melee mob not being able to reach the enemy always wastes actions. So it doesn't have any opportunity cost for them to use the Help action.


If they weren't stuck in the Webs, helping each other get out, they'd be Dashing toward your archers. That's the opportunity cost: time. If there are _two_ Young Red Dragons, and one of them pauses to Help the other out of the Web, you've just cost them two full attack actions on one failed saving throw!




> Or you could shoot at them to kill them? Lore Bard Reaction features to make _Web_ work


Yes... Lore Bard Reaction to make Web even better, so you can spend even more rounds shooting at those idiotic Young Red Dragons with advantage on the Restrained one, while the other one stupidly tries to Help the other get out but has its Help cancelled out by the Lore Bard's reaction. Are you seeing now why this is a losing strategy for the dragons?




> *That would work if Web's effects were simultaneously, but not so much when each person gets stuck individually on their own turn*. And if you release concentration, then you just wasted your action and a 2nd-level spell-slot, and probably also the previous spell you were concentrating on.


It would be even better if it worked simultaneously, but it works fine on a turn-by-turn basis too. The key thing is that you can never wind up in a situation which is overall disadvantageous to the party, because if the dice are against you, the Web caster just instantly releases the spell, having lost nothing but a 2nd level spell slot.

And of course you're right that you don't cast Web when you're already concentrating on something more important. Concentration is an important limitation as well as an advantage, we all acknowledge that. You can _Grease_ when you're already _Wall of Force_ing, but you'd (almost) never _Web_ when you're _Wall of Force_ing, because Web isn't worth losing _Wall of Force_.




> No, that's not how it would work.


Ah, proof by bald assertion. Very persuasive.

Sometimes that is _exactly_ how it works. It depends.




> Also, now you need a warlock in your party to use his Action to ready a cantrip just in case.


Vs. orcs, it's not worth it. Vs. a Young Red Dragon, it's totally worth it.




> And since you don't know in advance who or how many or where exactly enemies break free, you'll have a nightmare description of that Ready action to make sure you don't accidentally shoot someone out of the Web from the position of your warlock.


It's completely straightforward. You position the warlock along whatever vector you _least_ want any webbed enemies to exit, and he Readies an action to Eldritch Blast anyone leaving the web. Now you can be confident they can't leave the Web on the vector that's most disadvantageous to you, which in some terrains can mean e.g. that they can't attack the party this turn.

Again, you wouldn't do this against 30 orcs because it's pointless, but you'd do this against 3 Iron Golems or dragons.




> However, your scenario would work with _Grease_, because _Grease_ forces immediate saves  regardless of whose turn it is. You can shoot your _Eldritch Blast_ without readying anything, push them onto the _Grease_, then pull them back out, and push them back in to force 2 saves.


It would be awful with _Grease_, because _Grease_ gives you disadvantage to shoot things, and even when it succeeds all you've done is make them stand up again, which doesn't even cost an action. And Grease doesn't even work on flying things like Young Red Dragons anyway.




> And this build is about a battlefield-controlling Storm Sorcerer, who pushes & pulls people around with Lightning Lures, Thunderwaves, and Booming Blades.


Fair enough. It is off-topic for this build.




> Bear Spirit gives advantages on STR checks, i.e. you want your own party to waste its actions on freeing themselves now?


Let's say that instead of a Repelling Blast Lore Bardlock, your Web caster is now in a party with a Shepherd Druid. You've got those same Young Red Dragons (or Iron Golems or whatever, it doesn't matter) in a Webbed area. They may or may not fail their Dex saves this round and come charging at you out of the web. Instead of charging _into_ the web and maybe getting caught too, the Shepherd Druid has some of his Elks or Wolves or whatnot stand 10' outside of the Web and Ready actions to Shove the Dragons/Golems/whatever back into the Web if they come near, this turn. Wouldn't it be great if the Shove attempt also had advantage?

Thanks to Bear Spirit, they do!

An Elk with +3 and advantage will beat a Young Red Dragon with +6 49.3% of the time. Totally worth doing.

Without Bear Spirit it only succeeds 34% of the time, which is still worth attempting but less effective.




> And _Hex_ is a single target warlock spell: you can debuff *ONE* enemy out of all the webbed ones; better make sure you hex the right enemy  all you need is magic foresight on who will fail his DEX save and then attempt a STR check in the future!
> But if you have such a real-life-future-telling warlock player in your party, who doesn't even need concentration for any other spell, why even bother with low level spells like _Web_?


You seem to have a misconception here, as if Web is never useful on strong creatures. If there are two Young Red Dragons, and you've got a Repelling Blast Lore Bardlock in the same party as a Web caster, there are _three_ potentially applicable synergies with Web:

(1) Hex a Red Dragon's Strength, which you'd want to do anything just for the extra damage;
(2) Cutting Words any attempts to break free from a Web;
(3) Repelling Blast it back into the webs if the geometry is favorable. (Wouldn't want to Ready in this case, so you don't impose effective disadvantage on its saves, but at least you're getting extra usage out of the Web.)




> Sure, _Web_ is a great spell, if a lot of unlikely preconditions are fulfilled and you don't have any other spells that you want to use your concentration for.


A lot of unlikely preconditions?

----------


## Corran

*Spoiler: @MaxWilson*
Show




> Fair enough. It is off-topic for this build.


Unless someone has access to freedom of movement. Putting someone with good defenses and strong opportunity attacks (being able to pull enemies inside adds to that too) might justify the cost in resources if this is the best form of crowd control available to the party at that moment. You end up taking more damage, or you spend more resources not to take more damage, but you go into this because you don't want to run the risk of the enemy/enemies getting out and going after others -or into the air, in the case of the young red dragon, because this is what you fear the most (though this is probably a bad example for what I am describing, as the red could burn the web; I guess it's a good example if your aim was to bait the dragon into putting its breath in recharge mode). Meaning that the goal is to strictly increase the chances of winning this encounter, as opposed to trying to win in the most cost effective or fastest way possible.

----------


## Habber_Dasher

Grease better than Web? Sure once you have better stuff than Web to concentrate on, but overall? Let's look at a few scenarios.

Enemy starts outside of spell area: With grease it's more likely an enemy can just step around the area of effect. With web you are more likely to be able to create a choke point because of its larger area. Even if there is a narrow hallway or something an enemy could potentially just move through the grease without even having to use the dash action if it makes its save. 

Enemy fails save: If an enemy fails it's save with grease it can just use it's movement to get up, probably step out of the area of effect with it's remaining movement, and still have it's action. If it's turn comes before your allies' then being prone didn't do much, especially if it's a ranged attacker. An enemy who fails it's web save at least have to burn an action, and it will probably have a harder time getting out of the area of effect afterwards. 

Enemy makes save: pretty much same as above. Web creates a larger area of difficult terrain so enemies are more likely to remain in the area of effect and have to make another save.

TLDR: Grease is good because it doesn't require concentration. The effect is relatively minor compared to Web.

----------


## bendking

Hey guys, it might be nice to put your off-topic messages into a <spoiler> tag. Perhaps even open a new thread for discussing Web vs Grease or something.

----------


## Theaitetos

@MaxWilson
*Spoiler: Web Wizards vs Grease Geniuses*
Show






> Is it? Even now, I search for "restrained" in your post and all I see is you saying the opposite: "The Restrained and Prone conditions are very similar to each other." No acknowledgement whatsoever that Restrained is far superior in ranged combat.


Then you're bad at reading *and* searching:




> _Grease_'s only weakness is that Prone gives disadvantage on attacks from afar.


q.e.d.






> Eh? If they are ranged, or spellcasters, Grease won't force movement at all: they just stand up, and haven't even lost an action.


Same for Web. So?  :Small Sigh: 

_Web_ only affects enemy's within their own turn. You can cast _Web_ on an entire army, and all your buddies can't make any use of it until every single army member had its turn. And all it takes for them is to 




> If they are _not_ ranged or spellcasters, it's much more useful to prevent enemy movement _at all_ while eating actions than to use up ~25' of enemy movement standing + moving through difficult terrain. Grease will still let a 30' move enemy Dash for a total of 40' movement on their turn (15' penalty for standing, 5' penalty for moving 5' through difficult terrain) whereas Web will prevent that non-melee enemy from moving at all. Obviously none is better than 40' or the enemy wouldn't be moving at all.


Just a moment ago you said that, unlike _Web_, _Grease_ wouldn't possible force an enemy to waste an Action, yet now you have the enemy waste an Action on Dash to get out of _Grease_? Having your cake and eat it too?  :Small Tongue: 




> d20s have a large variance--almost anything can fail a Dex save and a Str check, especially if you factor in things like Cutting Word and the fact that they don't have proficiency in Str checks. E.g. a Young Red Dragon has +4 to Dex saves and +6 to Strength checks. If you've got DC 16, there's 55% chance it's going to fail the Dex save, which means Web just bought you an advantage: if it wastes an action trying to get free, it has a 45% chance of failing (higher if you have Cutting Words or Hex on it), which means it wasted an action for _nothing_, AND you also get advantage on attacks against it, and it has to try against next round and maybe waste more actions for nothing. Otherwise, it wastes an action, so your second-level spell cost it a full round of attacks (and you may be able to Repelling Blast it right back into the web again, depending on party composition). Either way you're certainly getting your money's worth out of that second-level spell slot.


I think my math above is conclusive on what you get out of it. If you think I made a mistake in my calculations, feel free to point it out.




> If they weren't stuck in the Webs, helping each other get out, they'd be Dashing toward your archers. That's the opportunity cost: time. If there are _two_ Young Red Dragons, and one of them pauses to Help the other out of the Web, you've just cost them two full attack actions on one failed saving throw!
> 
> Yes... Lore Bard Reaction to make Web even better, so you can spend even more rounds shooting at those idiotic Young Red Dragons with advantage on the Restrained one, while the other one stupidly tries to Help the other get out but has its Help cancelled out by the Lore Bard's reaction. Are you seeing now why this is a losing strategy for the dragons?


Because Young Red Dragons just burn the _Web_ with their Fire Breath? You know, immunity to fire damage and all.  :Small Amused: 




> It would be even better if it worked simultaneously, but it works fine on a turn-by-turn basis too. The key thing is that you can never wind up in a situation which is overall disadvantageous to the party, because if the dice are against you, the Web caster just instantly releases the spell, having lost nothing but a 2nd level spell slot.


and the caster has also lost a precious action and any previous concentration spell he had to give up on for _Web_.




> And of course you're right that you don't cast Web when you're already concentrating on something more important. Concentration is an important limitation as well as an advantage, we all acknowledge that. You can _Grease_ when you're already _Wall of Force_ing, but you'd (almost) never _Web_ when you're _Wall of Force_ing, because Web isn't worth losing _Wall of Force_.


Almost nothing is worth losing to _Web_. That's why it's such a bad spell compared to _Grease_.




> It's completely straightforward. You position the warlock along whatever vector you _least_ want any webbed enemies to exit, and he Readies an action to Eldritch Blast anyone leaving the web. Now you can be confident they can't leave the Web on the vector that's most disadvantageous to you, which in some terrains can mean e.g. that they can't attack the party this turn.
> 
> Again, you wouldn't do this against 30 orcs because it's pointless, but you'd do this against 3 Iron Golems or dragons.


You know Iron Golems regenerate hitpoints on taking fire damage? They'd just burn the _Web_ and stand inside to get those sweet hitpoints Then they'd use their Poison Breath on you from afar. Oh, and they have spell resistance, which means advantages on saving throws against _Web_.

You basically just buffed the enemy with hitpoint regeneration and made it harder for your melee party members to attack them. Your party's reaction:  :Small Furious: 




> It would be awful with _Grease_, because _Grease_ gives you disadvantage to shoot things


No, it gives you disadvantage on attacking from afar. You can stand right next to them and shoot them without advantage or disadvantage.




> And Grease doesn't even work on flying things like Young Red Dragons anyway.


Neither does _Web_, unless the Young Red Dragon decides to end his turn less than 20ft above ground to be in range for your spells. I doubt INT 14 creatures do that.  :Small Wink: 




> Let's say that instead of a Repelling Blast Lore Bardlock, your Web caster is now in a party with a Shepherd Druid. You've got those same Young Red Dragons (or Iron Golems or whatever, it doesn't matter) in a Webbed area. They may or may not fail their Dex saves this round and come charging at you out of the web. Instead of charging _into_ the web and maybe getting caught too, the Shepherd Druid has some of his Elks or Wolves or whatnot stand 10' outside of the Web and Ready actions to Shove the Dragons/Golems/whatever back into the Web if they come near, this turn. Wouldn't it be great if the Shove attempt also had advantage?
> 
> Thanks to Bear Spirit, they do!
> 
> An Elk with +3 and advantage will beat a Young Red Dragon with +6 49.3% of the time. Totally worth doing.
> 
> Without Bear Spirit it only succeeds 34% of the time, which is still worth attempting but less effective.


I know it was Christmas last week, but Reindeer & Elks can't actually fly.  :Small Wink: 




> You seem to have a misconception here, as if Web is never useful on strong creatures. If there are two Young Red Dragons, and you've got a Repelling Blast Lore Bardlock in the same party as a Web caster, there are _three_ potentially applicable synergies with Web:
> 
> (1) Hex a Red Dragon's Strength, which you'd want to do anything just for the extra damage;
> (2) Cutting Words any attempts to break free from a Web;
> (3) Repelling Blast it back into the webs if the geometry is favorable. (Wouldn't want to Ready in this case, so you don't impose effective disadvantage on its saves, but at least you're getting extra usage out of the Web.)
> 
> A lot of unlikely preconditions?


Young Red Dragons. Fire Immunity. Fire Breath. The _Web_ is flammable.  :Small Sigh: 





@Habber_Dasher

*Spoiler: Web Wizards vs Grease Geniuses*
Show





> Enemy starts outside of spell area: With grease it's more likely an enemy can just step around the area of effect. With web you are more likely to be able to create a choke point because of its larger area. Even if there is a narrow hallway or something an enemy could potentially just move through the grease without even having to use the dash action if it makes its save.


I think you underestimate the size of a 10ft cube, that's 4+ tiles on a (hex) grid, forcing a long way around it, delaying the enemy for at least 1 round before closing in on your party. Saving an Action means nothing if you can't use it for anything, and melee enemies can't. Ranged enemies aren't hindered at all from either _Web_ or _Grease_, as they can move around and shoot at the same time.




> Enemy fails save: If an enemy fails it's save with grease it can just use it's movement to get up, probably step out of the area of effect with it's remaining movement, and still have it's action. If it's turn comes before your allies' then being prone didn't do much, especially if it's a ranged attacker. An enemy who fails it's web save at least have to burn an action, and it will probably have a harder time getting out of the area of effect afterwards.
> 
> Enemy makes save: pretty much same as above. Web creates a larger area of difficult terrain so enemies are more likely to remain in the area of effect and have to make another save.


Not so fast! You're making hugely important assumptions now without stating them. For I have seen what you did there: You skipped the entire problem of _Web_'s bad debuff mechanic by silently implying that the enemy fails their save on their own turn. This completely ignores the massive advantage of _Grease_: enemies can fail saves on *ANY* turn and fall prone repeatedly.



So let's look at it again by inserting these assumptions of yours (in red):




> Enemy fails save: If an enemy fails it's save with grease on its own turn it can just use it's movement to get up, probably step out of the area of effect with it's remaining movement, and still have it's action.


If it's a melee enemy, then the action is useless, as he can't reach you: standing up eats half of your largest movement speed, and difficult terrain requires twice the movement speed, easily stopping someone either on the last _Grease_ tile or at worst just 1 tile outside. Having an Action available without being able to attack or do anything with it is like having no Action at all.
If it's a ranged enemy, then _Web_ wouldn't have prevented them from taking an Action either.




> Enemy makes save on its own turn: pretty much same as above. Web creates a larger area of difficult terrain so enemies are more likely to remain in the area of effect and have to make another save.


They don't have to make another save until the beginning of their next round. _Web_'s only effect: slowing down via difficult terrain. _Grease_ would give you the exact same effect.



And now let's look at it again by inserting all the situations you (purposefully?) omitted (in green):




> Enemy fails save: If an enemy fails it's save with grease on your or your party member's turn it can just use it's movement to get up, probably step out of the area of effect with it's remaining movement, and still have it's action.


No, it cannot use its movement, because it can't move outside its own turn. If it fails the save then it lies prone and there is absolutely nothing it can do about it until the beginning of its own turn. It is now a victim to its enemies:

The enemy is prone, you can move in, hit them (with advantage), and move back out. You might even use special abilities to reduce their movement speed to keep them in the _Grease_ area, e.g. _Eldritch Blast_ push, _Ray of Frost_ speed reduction, Shove, 
These are beautiful options that _Web_ just can't offer, because with _Web_, enemies can only fail their saves during their own turns, allowing them immediate actions to address their predicament. But _Grease_ knocks enemies prone immediately on any turn, whenever you blast/push/shove them inside the _Grease_ area. Enemies can even be knocked prone immediately when you cast the spell!

Absolute Win for _Grease_, as _Web_ has absolutely no effect in this more frequent situation.




> Enemy makes save on your or your party member's turn: pretty much same as above. Web creates a larger area of difficult terrain so enemies are more likely to remain in the area of effect and have to make another save.


No, because _Web_ doesn't force saves on another creature's turn. It cannot stand up (not its turn) and it's at the complete mercy of its enemies. Again, an absolute Win for _Grease_, as _Web_ has absolutely no effect in this more frequent situation.



So how about we turn the tables and address a few other glaring weaknesses of _Web_?

Once _Web_ is dispelled, all its victims are immediately freed from the Restrained condition.
When _Grease_ is dispelled, however, all its victims remain firmly Prone on the ground.

_Grease_ is a 1st-level spell and removing it requires a full 3rd-level casting of the _Dispel Magic_ spell.
_Web_ is a 2nd-level spell that can be dispelled with a torch

_Web_ is pretty much impossible to use in close combat, as its big AoE size makes it inevitably affect your allies as well.
_Grease_ can be used in close combat, as it's much more likely to find a good spot to cast it on due to its smaller AoE.
Size isn't always better!

And when you really need a big size, you can always cast Grease twice  or more  to shape the battlefield to your advantage.  :Small Wink: 



You know, I sometimes think that people either use the RAW mechanics of _Web_ wrong or they're still nostalgic about previous edition versions of _Web_.

When you actually follow the rules, then _Web_ is really not that good of a spell. And the fact that it requires concentration  while _Grease_ does not!  is an absolute game breaker for me.

----------


## Theaitetos

New Year, new ideas!

I've been thinking about the spell list again, this time trying to take a closer look at the cleric spells, that I carelessly disregarded previously.

First, you are missing 1 cleric spell on that list: A cleric can prepare cleric level + WIS modifier spells, and with WIS 13 you have a +1 modifier, qualifying for 2 spells @ level 1, and 3 spells @ level 2.

Second, I would replace _Healing Word_ with _Cure Wounds_, as it heals a +2 hitpoints more per spell-level. That's better for out-of-combat situations and imo also better during combat. You're most likely to be the guy with the lowest hitpoints in your entire party (CON 14 sorcerer) & you are the party's frontline tank! That means you're the one who probably needs emergency healing the most. _Healing Word_ is useful only in two situations:
1) When trying to prevent someone at a distance from dying, but that is your party healer's job; and in case that the healer goes down, your group should have items for that, e.g. _Goodberry_, potions, scrolls, beads,  (look below at "Third" for another option).
2) When you are trying to Disengage & flee the battlefield, because _Healing Word_ can be cast with a Bonus Action and the Action can be used to Disengage. However, (next to rogues) a Storm Sorcerer already has a superb disengage ability available as bonus action, so when you are trying to flee, simply cast _Cure Wounds_ on yourself and use your Tempestuous Magic to disengage, and then run.
As an alternative, if healing is secured or you prefer more nova & dps, take _Wrathful Smite_. In the rare case of someone playing a Zeal Cleric instead of Tempest Cleric, choose _Thunderous Smite_ instead.

Third, as the missing cleric spell I suggest _Sanctuary_. This is an incredibly powerful spell because it is cast as a bonus action at a range (like _Healing Word_), lasts 1 minute, and does not require concentration. If your healer or someone else is in trouble, protect him. And even better, it plays to your strength as an alternative to using _Shield_. _Shield_ boosts your AC by +5 for 1 round, which is amazing, but doesn't work against non-attack spells (i.e. saving throw based spells) or special attacks like Grapple & Shove (which target your STR/DEX). _Sanctuary_ requires a WIS save on every single attack, so overcoming that save and the AC 20 is hard. In any case, you can still cast _Shield_, _Absorb Elements_, or _Counterspell_ if necessary as a Reaction. _Sanctuary_ is especially useful if you want to use one round to set up something without affecting an enemy this turn, e.g.: [Round 1]: Cast _Booming Blade_ (action), then cast _Sanctuary_ (bonus action), use any non-offensive reaction (no OA or Wrath of the Storm). [Round 2]: _Sanctuary_ is still active, cast preparation spells as action (e.g. _Grease_ / _Wall of Thunder_ on empty area) and/or bonus action (e.g _Wrathful Smite_), use reaction wisely (either non-offensive, or offensive as the enemy has no more attack options on you as it's nearing your turn again). [Round 3]: Make your plan come together!

Fourth, I just researched _Fog Cloud_ a little and WOW! That spell is freaking amazing! It counters so many things that enemies without _Dispel Magic_ or wind spells will have a hard time fighting against you. Did you know that you can completely neutralize a freaking Beholder with it? The Beholder's only anti-magic is a cone that suppresses all magical effects inside  including his own eye rays! So a Beholder can see you while suppressing the Fog Cloud in his cone, but then he can't fire at you.  :Small Big Grin:  Or he aims his cone elsewhere, but then he's effectively blinded and can't fire at you.  :Small Cool: 
It also works against those with Darkvision, so enemies like Drow or fiends lose their advantages in (magical) darkness against you (and you thought you needed the _Light_ cantrip).  :Small Tongue:  Higher-level Drow usually have _Dispel Magic_, but _Fog Cloud_ only needs a 1st-level spell-slot, while Dispel Magic needs a 3rd-level slot. Sure, you can't target enemies either, but you can still cast non-targeted spells like _Thunderclap_.
You probably won't use it in normal encounters, but in any other case it's extremely versatile and highly effective: You can use it as cover for your party to flee or maybe even sneak past enemies. *It negates Darkvision, Devil's Sight, and True Sight!* It helps setting up an ambush or getting out of being ambushed. It can be used as a preparation for non-targeted AoE spells like _Thunder-/Fireball_. So that's a very nice Domain spell you have there.  :Small Smile: 



Another thing metamagic. I don't have a solution, just these nagging feelings that you're lacking good, frequent metamagic options. Usually all sorcerers do, but this build even more so. You plan to take Elemental Spell & Empowered Spell as your metamagics at level 3, and they're both solid choices, but rarely useful. Sure, you can make spell-slots out of excess sorcery points, but not getting to use metamagic is an awful feeling.

Empowered Spell is a fail-safe mechanism, that is only used in the rare occasions that you roll below average and have bad dice. Rolling 8d6 for _Fireball_ and getting eight times a "3" sucks a lot, but Empowered can't help much. Statistically you could probably get +2 damage out of rerolling 4 dice, at the cost of 1 sorcery point.  :Small Sigh:  Using Empowered on the cantrips is a waste of sp as well, and we can't use it on the many single rolls of _Wall of Fire_ , so we're left with using it for _Shatter_ (@ sorcerer level 3), and _Fireball_ (@5), _Lightning Bolt_ (@6), _Vitriolic Sphere_ (@8), _Cone of Cold_ (@9).

The thing about this is that you have picked Elemental Spell as well, so you can turn all of the blue spells into lightning/thunder. And this is where your Channel Divinite ability comes into play: You can maximize a single lightning/thunder spell once per short rest. If you use channel divinity on those few occasions that you rolled way below average (per short rest), you might be able to effectively substitute Empowered Spell.

Take sorcerer level 7 for example (i.e. Cleric 2/Sorcerer 7): You have 3 x 3rd-level slots, 3 x 4th-level slots, 1 x 5th-level slot. Let's ignore the 1st & 2nd-level spells. _Counterspell_ and _Wall of Fire_ don't need to be empowered, and let's say you cast each of those two spells once a day (on average). That leaves you with casting 5 empowerable spells per day (Fireballs, most likely). When we now factor in, that your Channel Divinity can Maximize the damage of 1 spell per short rest, you'll notice that it's unlikely we will ever have to use Empower. Even if your party does just 1 short rest per day, you still can use your Maximize on 2 of those 5 spells. If we assume that the other 3 spells have good rolls (i.e. with Empower being unnecessary or even detrimental) or that there's a second short rest, we're very likely to make it through the day without having needed Empowered at all. At higher levels Empowered gets increasingly useful again though, because you have ever more spell slots to cast empowerable spells with, and the chance that more than 1 spell needs to be empowered/maximized per short rest is quickly increasing, so I would definitely pick it up at level 10.

The possible alternative before level 10: Twinned Spell
Consider, you also have 2 levels in cleric, so by the time you have metamagic (sorcerer level 3), you are character level 5 (Tempest Cleric 2/Storm Sorcerer 3) and at that point all your cantrips enter tier 2, _Booming Blade_ now doing +1d8 on hit & +2d8 on rider (average damage: 4.5/hit & 9/rider). If you use Twinned Spell on _Booming Blade_, you'd add an average of +4.5/hit & +9/rider per sorcery point. I think this adds more average damage than Empowered Spell before you hit level 10, when you can take it as your third metamagic. It's especially useful to improve your role as pulling tank: with Twinned Booming Blade you can forcefully compel two enemies to stick around you instead of just one enemy.

The opportunity cost: Quickened Spell
You planned to take Quickened at level 10, yet if we delay Empowered to level 10 in favor of Twinned, we'd have to abandon Quickened (at least until character level 19, which most people never do). Not gonna lie, not having Quickened will hurt a blaster. Since this build is primarily a battlefield controller instead of a blaster, it might not be that bad though, as you will have some other good choices for your Bonus Action: Tempestuous Magic (10ft flight), Storm Guide (change wind directions), turning sorcery points into spell slots or vice versa, casting the potential spells _Sanctuary, Wrathful Smite, Shadow Blade, Misty Step_, or channeling spells like _Storm Sphere & Crown of Stars_.

In conclusion:
When aiming for low- to mid-tier games, then I suggest Elemental Spell & Twinned Spell (@3) and Empowered (@10).
When directly starting with a higher-level character, then I suggest Elemental & Empowered (@3) and Quickened (@10).

----------


## bendking

> New Year, new ideas!
> 
> I've been thinking about the spell list again, this time trying to take a closer look at the cleric spells, that I carelessly disregarded previously.
> 
> First, you are missing 1 cleric spell on that list: A cleric can prepare cleric level + WIS modifier spells, and with WIS 13 you have a +1 modifier, qualifying for 2 spells @ level 1, and 3 spells @ level 2.
> 
> Second, I would replace _Healing Word_ with _Cure Wounds_, as it heals a +2 hitpoints more per spell-level. That's better for out-of-combat situations and imo also better during combat. You're most likely to be the guy with the lowest hitpoints in your entire party (CON 14 sorcerer) & you are the party's frontline tank! That means you're the one who probably needs emergency healing the most. _Healing Word_ is useful only in two situations:
> 1) When trying to prevent someone at a distance from dying, but that is your party healer's job; and in case that the healer goes down, your group should have items for that, e.g. _Goodberry_, potions, scrolls, beads,  (look below at "Third" for another option).
> 2) When you are trying to Disengage & flee the battlefield, because _Healing Word_ can be cast with a Bonus Action and the Action can be used to Disengage. However, (next to rogues) a Storm Sorcerer already has a superb disengage ability available as bonus action, so when you are trying to flee, simply cast _Cure Wounds_ on yourself and use your Tempestuous Magic to disengage, and then run.
> As an alternative, if healing is secured or you prefer more nova & dps, take _Wrathful Smite_. In the rare case of someone playing a Zeal Cleric instead of Tempest Cleric, choose _Thunderous Smite_ instead.


Good catch about that Spells Prepared number.

I wouldn't replace Healing Word with Cure Wounds for a few reasons:
1) The party might not have a healer
2) He might be downed and still haven't been picked up, so why wouldn't we pick up him with a BA rather than a teammate use an action, or maybe even two actions disengaging then healing.
3) The +2 on average healing of Cure Wounds isn't all that interesting. In combat, it would rarely actually save you, and even more rarely save you when Healing Word wouldn't have.
4) Healing mid-combat isn't an effective tactic most of the time, while Healing Word is effective when used to revive downed teammates without even having to disengage.
You could potentially still Booming Blade/Thunderclap AND Healing Word at the same turn. Why waste an entire turn on disengaging and healing when you can waste only a bonus action?
5) You mostly use healing while in danger when you want to stay the fight and win it. Personally, I almost never fleed a fight in the campaigns I've played, so I can't say the use of it while running is all the appealing. Plus, you would lose your Dash, which you really need to running away. And like I said, that +2 isn't that meaningful, especially the higher level you are. 
Healing Word is a top tier spell and I will never say no to it :)




> Third, as the missing cleric spell I suggest _Sanctuary_. This is an incredibly powerful spell because it is cast as a bonus action at a range (like _Healing Word_), lasts 1 minute, and does not require concentration. If your healer or someone else is in trouble, protect him. And even better, it plays to your strength as an alternative to using _Shield_. _Shield_ boosts your AC by +5 for 1 round, which is amazing, but doesn't work against non-attack spells (i.e. saving throw based spells) or special attacks like Grapple & Shove (which target your STR/DEX). _Sanctuary_ requires a WIS save on every single attack, so overcoming that save and the AC 20 is hard. In any case, you can still cast _Shield_, _Absorb Elements_, or _Counterspell_ if necessary as a Reaction. _Sanctuary_ is especially useful if you want to use one round to set up something without affecting an enemy this turn, e.g.: [Round 1]: Cast _Booming Blade_ (action), then cast _Sanctuary_ (bonus action), use any non-offensive reaction (no OA or Wrath of the Storm). [Round 2]: _Sanctuary_ is still active, cast preparation spells as action (e.g. _Grease_ / _Wall of Thunder_ on empty area) and/or bonus action (e.g _Wrathful Smite_), use reaction wisely (either non-offensive, or offensive as the enemy has no more attack options on you as it's nearing your turn again). [Round 3]: Make your plan come together!
> 
> Fourth, I just researched _Fog Cloud_ a little and WOW! That spell is freaking amazing! It counters so many things that enemies without _Dispel Magic_ or wind spells will have a hard time fighting against you. Did you know that you can completely neutralize a freaking Beholder with it? The Beholder's only anti-magic is a cone that suppresses all magical effects inside  including his own eye rays! So a Beholder can see you while suppressing the Fog Cloud in his cone, but then he can't fire at you.  Or he aims his cone elsewhere, but then he's effectively blinded and can't fire at you. 
> It also works against those with Darkvision, so enemies like Drow or fiends lose their advantages in (magical) darkness against you (and you thought you needed the _Light_ cantrip).  Higher-level Drow usually have _Dispel Magic_, but _Fog Cloud_ only needs a 1st-level spell-slot, while Dispel Magic needs a 3rd-level slot. Sure, you can't target enemies either, but you can still cast non-targeted spells like _Thunderclap_.
> You probably won't use it in normal encounters, but in any other case it's extremely versatile and highly effective: You can use it as cover for your party to flee or maybe even sneak past enemies. *It negates Darkvision, Devil's Sight, and True Sight!* It helps setting up an ambush or getting out of being ambushed. It can be used as a preparation for non-targeted AoE spells like _Thunder-/Fireball_. So that's a very nice Domain spell you have there.


Agreed about Sanctuary being the 3rd prepared spell, it's amazing!
I'm not sure about doing plans that take 3 rounds to come together as a tactic, since most combats take 3 rounds on average, but that's perhaps beside the point.
Why would you cast Thunderwall/Grease on an empty area?

And indeed, Fog Cloud is super useful. I do think you still need Light. Unless you're going Scourge Aasimar, that is.
I'm still thinking about Scourge Aasimar... The AoE on it is just so tasty, and fits our playstyle immensely. The self-damage isn't even horrible, considering Aasimar are resistant to Radiant damage.
The biggest problem with it is the Action to activate. The action economy of it just isn't good. Though if you can cast it pre-fight, it would be amazing.






> Another thing metamagic. I don't have a solution, just these nagging feelings that you're lacking good, frequent metamagic options. Usually all sorcerers do, but this build even more so. You plan to take Elemental Spell & Empowered Spell as your metamagics at level 3, and they're both solid choices, but rarely useful. Sure, you can make spell-slots out of excess sorcery points, but not getting to use metamagic is an awful feeling.
> 
> Empowered Spell is a fail-safe mechanism, that is only used in the rare occasions that you roll below average and have bad dice. Rolling 8d6 for _Fireball_ and getting eight times a "3" sucks a lot, but Empowered can't help much. Statistically you could probably get +2 damage out of rerolling 4 dice, at the cost of 1 sorcery point.  Using Empowered on the cantrips is a waste of sp as well, and we can't use it on the many single rolls of _Wall of Fire_ , so we're left with using it for _Shatter_ (@ sorcerer level 3), and _Fireball_ (@5), _Lightning Bolt_ (@6), _Vitriolic Sphere_ (@8), _Cone of Cold_ (@9).
> 
> The thing about this is that you have picked Elemental Spell as well, so you can turn all of the blue spells into lightning/thunder. And this is where your Channel Divinite ability comes into play: You can maximize a single lightning/thunder spell once per short rest. If you use channel divinity on those few occasions that you rolled way below average (per short rest), you might be able to effectively substitute Empowered Spell.
> 
> Take sorcerer level 7 for example (i.e. Cleric 2/Sorcerer 7): You have 3 x 3rd-level slots, 3 x 4th-level slots, 1 x 5th-level slot. Let's ignore the 1st & 2nd-level spells. _Counterspell_ and _Wall of Fire_ don't need to be empowered, and let's say you cast each of those two spells once a day (on average). That leaves you with casting 5 empowerable spells per day (Fireballs, most likely). When we now factor in, that your Channel Divinity can Maximize the damage of 1 spell per short rest, you'll notice that it's unlikely we will ever have to use Empower. Even if your party does just 1 short rest per day, you still can use your Maximize on 2 of those 5 spells. If we assume that the other 3 spells have good rolls (i.e. with Empower being unnecessary or even detrimental) or that there's a second short rest, we're very likely to make it through the day without having needed Empowered at all. At higher levels Empowered gets increasingly useful again though, because you have ever more spell slots to cast empowerable spells with, and the chance that more than 1 spell needs to be empowered/maximized per short rest is quickly increasing, so I would definitely pick it up at level 10.
> 
> The possible alternative before level 10: Twinned Spell
> ...


Regarding a frequently used metamagic, I feel like Elemental Spell is already that: used to both trigger Heart of the Storm and use Destructive Wrath.
While I do agree with Empowered perhaps not being as useful as I imagined, I do wonder if Twinned is the answer.
Getting Twinned feels like a bit of a waste, since we aren't buffers, and it is _the_ premier buffer Metamagic, and _none_ of our spells work with it other than Booming Blade, Healing Word & Sanctuary. That said, those are all _great_ spells to Twin. Still, feels like a bit of missed potential.
Still, I'm not even sure how often we will use Booming Blade as an action, since we have other, better actions, and I view Booming Blade mostly as an OA threat rather than an action we would necessarily want to take consistently.

----------


## Theaitetos

> I wouldn't replace Healing Word with Cure Wounds for a few reasons:
> 1) The party might not have a healer
> 2) He might be downed and still haven't been picked up, so why wouldn't we pick up him with a BA rather than a teammate use an action, or maybe even two actions disengaging then healing.
> 3) The +2 on average healing of Cure Wounds isn't all that interesting. In combat, it would rarely actually save you, and even more rarely save you when Healing Word wouldn't have.
> 4) Healing mid-combat isn't an effective tactic most of the time, while Healing Word is effective when used to revive downed teammates without even having to disengage.
> You could potentially still Booming Blade/Thunderclap AND Healing Word at the same turn. Why waste an entire turn on disengaging and healing when you can waste only a bonus action?
> 5) You mostly use healing while in danger when you want to stay the fight and win it. Personally, I almost never fleed a fight in the campaigns I've played, so I can't say the use of it while running is all the appealing. Plus, you would lose your Dash, which you really need to running away. And like I said, that +2 isn't that meaningful, especially the higher level you are. 
> Healing Word is a top tier spell and I will never say no to it :)


1) A party without a healer has to stack up on potions, scrolls, and items. You're already a primary tank, controller, blaster, and secondary buffer & debuffer. You really can't pick up yet another role.
2) When he was downed in combat, then an enemy put him there. If it was a melee enemy, someone will have to go there anyway to put the enemy down & save him. And if it was a ranged enemy, you need healing and cover to prevent another ranged attack.
3) The +2 are useful because they are per level. If someone needs an emergency heal, upcast the spell! And in case you take Twinned as metamagic, it's +4 per level  not too shoddy!
4) Offense is the best defense. When someone is downed, they have 3 saves to fail before dying, that's plenty of time in most cases. Just focus on killing enemies as fast as possible, so combat is over or at least disengagement isn't necessary. Besides, you have Sanctuary now to protect a teammate from further damage at critical health (or even when downed).
5) Dash is not effective for your build. Remember, we're still working with a DEX build wearing Heavy Armor (i.e. STR 8), which slows us down by -10ft. With a base movement speed of 20ft, using Dash to get to 40ft isn't worth it. Instead, use plenty of _Grease_ and _Thunderwave_ and _Ray of Frost_ (twinned?) to slow down the enemy. It's your specialty to hold the line.

And if you're afraid that the ranged enemies hit you while you cover the retreat, use this little trick of ranged arcane combat lore: drop prone!  :Small Amused: 



> A prone creature's only movement option is to crawl, unless it stands up and thereby ends the condition.The creature has disadvantage on attack rolls.An attack roll against the creature has advantage if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature. Otherwise, the attack roll has disadvantage.


Prone is a very powerful defensive condition that you can inflict on yourself for free! It's a secret, non-magical buff against ranged attacks. All of your attacks (_Booming Blade, Ray of Frost, Chill Touch_, ) will now have disadvantage, yes, but your ranged saving throw spells work as usual (_Thunderclap, Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead_, ). And "curing" the condition costs you just 10ft of movement! You can definitely also use Tempestuous Magic to move the 10ft per Bonus Action, but whether or not this allows you to stand up for free I dunno, not sure.






> I'm not sure about doing plans that take 3 rounds to come together as a tactic, since most combats take 3 rounds on average, but that's perhaps beside the point.
> Why would you cast Thunderwall/Grease on an empty area?


This wasn't a 3 round tactic, it was an example of making the best use of _Sanctuary_ by having 1 round inserted of not breaking the spell  hence no offensive actions, and area spells cast on empty areas. [Round 1] was supposed to be a normal combat round as usual, with casting _Sanctuary_ as Bonus Action at the end of a round when you want to set up something (for example a buff or _Wall of Thunder_) in the next round ([Round 2]). [Round 3] was then re-engaging in normal combat, using the setup of [Round 2]. Ever since the errata came out, _Sanctuary_ is much weaker, as more things can break the spell:




> If the warded creature makes an attack, casts a spell that affects an enemy, or deals damage to another creature, this spell ends.


That means whenever you deal damage  no matter if by attacks, spells, abilities,   Sanctuary breaks. Before the errata, features were able to damage an enemy, e.g. your Thunderous Rebuke reaction or that Aasimar's radiant AoE could have dealt lightning/thunder/radiant damage to enemies without breaking _Sanctuary_, but now these feats do break it.






> And indeed, Fog Cloud is super useful. I do think you still need Light. Unless you're going Scourge Aasimar, that is.
> I'm still thinking about Scourge Aasimar... The AoE on it is just so tasty, and fits our playstyle immensely. The self-damage isn't even horrible, considering Aasimar are resistant to Radiant damage.
> The biggest problem with it is the Action to activate. The action economy of it just isn't good. Though if you can cast it pre-fight, it would be amazing.


Yes, this feat is very strong. The Fallen Aasimar is great too for the STR version of this build, both with synergistic strengths playing into it.

The Scourge Aasimar's AoE is untargeted as well, which means it can be used inside the _Fog Cloud_ when you can't see your enemies. And since _Thunderclap_ is another untargeted AoE damage spell, you can use the extra radiant damage per turn from the Aasimar feat as well. At level 7, in the _Fog Cloud_, you could deal 2d6 thunder + 4 radiant damage in a 10ft AoE per turn (+7 radiant damage to a single enemy) without even seeing your enemies. And with a 20ft light aura, it completely negates the _Darkness_ spell, even penetrating the 8th-level _Maddening Darkness_ spell. It's also extremely thematic and perfect fluff going full "Avatar Aasimar State" (more so than "Super Saiyan"); and if I were DM I'd give you advantage on Intimidation checks against anyone who has seen this state before when using _Thaumaturgy_ to pretend going there again.  :Small Amused: 

The Fallen Aasimar's ability is not as strong, but still plenty useful,as the frightening effect keeps you alive as your enemies get disadvantage on attacks against you and have their movement options reduced even more.






> Regarding a frequently used metamagic, I feel like Elemental Spell is already that: used to both trigger Heart of the Storm and use Destructive Wrath.


You don't have that many spells to use Elemental Spell on. _Fireball_ is the first such spell, so you'd go from sorcerer level 3 to 5 without ever using it. Considering the few spells that it can be used on (i.e. damage spells & not thunder & not lightning), you're likely to have sorcery points spare every day.




> While I do agree with Empowered perhaps not being as useful as I imagined, I do wonder if Twinned is the answer.
> Getting Twinned feels like a bit of a waste, since we aren't buffers, and it is _the_ premier buffer Metamagic, and _none_ of our spells work with it other than Booming Blade, Healing Word & Sanctuary. That said, those are all _great_ spells to Twin. Still, feels like a bit of missed potential.
> Still, I'm not even sure how often we will use Booming Blade as an action, since we have other, better actions, and I view Booming Blade mostly as an OA threat rather than an action we would necessarily want to take consistently.


Twinned is very strong at early levels, as it's cheap to power-up a 1st- or 2nd-level spell. It starts getting too expensive at level 3 already (imo) and beyond that just say no. However, it gets worth it again at spell levels 8 & 9, because twinning _Wish_ and the like is just that good.

And since _Booming Blade_ is your main attack at early levels  all your other spells are either defensive, heals, buffs, or a single dubious AoE (_Thunderwave_)  Twinned is basically a free attack at sorcerer level 3. Think about it like this, at character level 5 (Cleric 2/Sorcerer 3) you get Extra Attack  the same level pure Fighters get it! Pure Sorcerers even get Extra Attack two levels before Fighters do! And since you have no other metamagics to use until character level 7  Cleric 2/Sorcerer 5 means caster level 7 with a 4th-level spell slot!  you have plenty of sorcery points to get from converting slots, as upcasting _Fireball_ (or any other of your spells) is not worth it. This slot alone is 4 sorcery points to waste on laying waste with _Booming Blade_!  :Small Big Grin:  Depending on your party it might be worth it to take _Haste_ instead of _Lightning Bolt_ (which is so hard to use properly  :Small Frown: ) or something else (maybe even drop _Shield_?).

Something to consider as well:
You are still a cleric, even if it's just 2 measly levels. That means you can use ALL cleric spell scrolls you find/buy, as long as you can beat the ability check for spells of 2nd-level & higher: it's a Wisdom ability check with DC 10 + spell level. You can apply your WIS modifier (+1) and your proficiency bonus (+2  +6), and use the _Guidance_ cantrip to make it a little easier (+1d4), and maybe you can get rid of a low level spell to get _Enhance Ability_ (2nd-level spell, advantage on ability checks for one stat, actually quite useful), to make sure you beat it. So when your party has no healer, you can still cast _Revivify_, _Remove Curse_, or _Greater Restoration_ from a scroll for example. And you can Twin those spells as well!

----------


## bendking

> 1) A party without a healer has to stack up on potions, scrolls, and items. You're already a primary tank, controller, blaster, and secondary buffer & debuffer. You really can't pick up yet another role.
> 2) When he was downed in combat, then an enemy put him there. If it was a melee enemy, someone will have to go there anyway to put the enemy down & save him. And if it was a ranged enemy, you need healing and cover to prevent another ranged attack.
> 3) The +2 are useful because they are per level. If someone needs an emergency heal, upcast the spell! And in case you take Twinned as metamagic, it's +4 per level  not too shoddy!
> 4) Offense is the best defense. When someone is downed, they have 3 saves to fail before dying, that's plenty of time in most cases. Just focus on killing enemies as fast as possible, so combat is over or at least disengagement isn't necessary. Besides, you have Sanctuary now to protect a teammate from further damage at critical health (or even when downed).
> 5) Dash is not effective for your build. Remember, we're still working with a DEX build wearing Heavy Armor (i.e. STR 8), which slows us down by -10ft. With a base movement speed of 20ft, using Dash to get to 40ft isn't worth it. Instead, use plenty of _Grease_ and _Thunderwave_ and _Ray of Frost_ (twinned?) to slow down the enemy. It's your specialty to hold the line.


I understand your arguments, but I still think of the two Healing Word is the must-have.
The cool thing is, though, that if you go for Scourge Aasimar you can have 14 WIS, and then just take both!




> Yes, this feat is very strong. The Fallen Aasimar is great too for the STR version of this build, both with synergistic strengths playing into it.
> 
> The Scourge Aasimar's AoE is untargeted as well, which means it can be used inside the _Fog Cloud_ when you can't see your enemies. And since _Thunderclap_ is another untargeted AoE damage spell, you can use the extra radiant damage per turn from the Aasimar feat as well. At level 7, in the _Fog Cloud_, you could deal 2d6 thunder + 4 radiant damage in a 10ft AoE per turn (+7 radiant damage to a single enemy) without even seeing your enemies. And with a 20ft light aura, it completely negates the _Darkness_ spell, even penetrating the 8th-level _Maddening Darkness_ spell. It's also extremely thematic and perfect fluff going full "Avatar Aasimar State" (more so than "Super Saiyan"); and if I were DM I'd give you advantage on Intimidation checks against anyone who has seen this state before when using _Thaumaturgy_ to pretend going there again. 
> 
> The Fallen Aasimar's ability is not as strong, but still plenty useful,as the frightening effect keeps you alive as your enemies get disadvantage on attacks against you and have their movement options reduced even more.


I don't think the radiance emitted by the racial ability counters magical darkness, by the way. Either way, it's really good. I'm actually heavily considering making the Scourge Aasimar the main version of the build.
Of the two Scourge Aasimar is definitely the better choice. If you're desperate for an STR version though, Fallen is good.




> You don't have that many spells to use Elemental Spell on. _Fireball_ is the first such spell, so you'd go from sorcerer level 3 to 5 without ever using it. Considering the few spells that it can be used on (i.e. damage spells & not thunder & not lightning), you're likely to have sorcery points spare every day.
> 
> Twinned is very strong at early levels, as it's cheap to power-up a 1st- or 2nd-level spell. It starts getting too expensive at level 3 already (imo) and beyond that just say no. However, it gets worth it again at spell levels 8 & 9, because twinning _Wish_ and the like is just that good.
> 
> And since _Booming Blade_ is your main attack at early levels  all your other spells are either defensive, heals, buffs, or a single dubious AoE (_Thunderwave_)  Twinned is basically a free attack at sorcerer level 3. Think about it like this, at character level 5 (Cleric 2/Sorcerer 3) you get Extra Attack  the same level pure Fighters get it! Pure Sorcerers even get Extra Attack two levels before Fighters do! And since you have no other metamagics to use until character level 7  Cleric 2/Sorcerer 5 means caster level 7 with a 4th-level spell slot!  you have plenty of sorcery points to get from converting slots, as upcasting _Fireball_ (or any other of your spells) is not worth it. This slot alone is 4 sorcery points to waste on laying waste with _Booming Blade_!  Depending on your party it might be worth it to take _Haste_ instead of _Lightning Bolt_ (which is so hard to use properly ) or something else (maybe even drop _Shield_?).


Point taken! I replaced Empowered with Twinned in the build. You have quite a lot of things to Twin, even if Haste/Greater Invisibility/Polymorph isn't one of them. And yet, you could definitely slot in one of those buffs if you wanted to, since the spell list isn't that tight: Shatter, Lightning Bolt, Vitriolic Sphere, and Telekinesis are all flexible. In fact, I'm thinking of changing the spell list to include one of those buffs. What do you think? Which spell should go and which spell should come in in your opinion?

I was debating Fire Shield, by the way, but I think it isn't worth it. We don't enough HP or resistance to damage to make it worthwhile.

----------


## Theaitetos

> I understand your arguments, but I still think of the two Healing Word is the must-have.
> The cool thing is, though, that if you go for Scourge Aasimar you can have 14 WIS, and then just take both!


If you take the Aasimar, then you can drop _Cure Wounds_ altogether imo, as you then have a strong racial touch-range healing ability (Healing Hands 1hp per level /long rest). I was mainly concerned about self-healing, since the build is a front-line tank with low hp.




> I don't think the radiance emitted by the racial ability counters magical darkness, by the way. Either way, it's really good. I'm actually heavily considering making the Scourge Aasimar the main version of the build.
> Of the two Scourge Aasimar is definitely the better choice. If you're desperate for an STR version though, Fallen is good.


Well, it depends on whether Radiant Consumption's light is considered non-magical or not: If it's non-magical, then it won't illuminate the _Darkness_ (but would definitely work in an anti-magic field). If it's not non-magical, then it illuminates the _Darkness_.

I say it's non-magical and therefore illuminate the _Darkness_, and I think Jeremy Crawford agrees:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/21...arkness-spell/
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...14071571341314

So yeah, make those Drow finally see the light again!  :Small Big Grin: 




> You have quite a lot of things to Twin, even if Haste/Greater Invisibility/Polymorph isn't one of them. And yet, you could definitely slot in one of those buffs if you wanted to, since the spell list isn't that tight: Shatter, Lightning Bolt, Vitriolic Sphere, and Telekinesis are all flexible. In fact, I'm thinking of changing the spell list to include one of those buffs. What do you think? Which spell should go and which spell should come in in your opinion?
> 
> I was debating Fire Shield, by the way, but I think it isn't worth it. We don't enough HP or resistance to damage to make it worthwhile.


I think at this point the build is pretty optimized for its own purposes. I noticed in my evaluations that it starts getting too dependent on the individual party composition. For example:

If you have a backliner with _Warding Bond_ (cleric, paladin, ranger), then the hitpoint concern of _Fire Shield_ is not that big. And in case someone goes with a Levistus Tiefling build variant, then _Armor of Agathys_ gets empowered by _Warding Bond_ as well. *Spoiler: More on the intricacies of Fire Shield*
Show

I like _Fire Shield_ for its versatility in either giving fire or cold resistance, and even better since it requires no concentration!
However, my main concern with _Fire Shield_ is that you are unlikely to be hit by melee attacks in the first place due to high AC. You do have a pretty good AC (heavy armor + shield), that you can raise even higher with the _Shield_ spell; and if you are _Haste_d (see below), then this could easily rise above 27 AC, so _Fire Shield_'s on-hit effect would hardly ever be used. Now, the weird triggering mechanics of the _Shield_ spell make it count as you being hit (so _Fire Shield_ would trigger its damage) even if you negate the damage, but this would work only on the first hit directly when you cast _Shield_, not on any subsequent hits while _Shield_ is still in effect.


If you have someone else in the party who can cast _Bless_, then you're free to use your concentration for something like twinned _Haste_ or twinned _Greater Invisibility_  the former is better for hard-hitters (e.g. GWM) and the latter is better for many-hitters & sneak attacks (e.g. Fighters & Rogues)  whatever the party needs most. In that case I would take _Shadow Blade_ from levels 5 to 6 (Cleric 2/Sorcerer 3+) instead of _Web_, because this spell scales much better than any other of our spells from the 2nd- to 3rd-level spell-slot: 2d8→3d8 psychic damage per hit; that's much stronger than our Rapier (1d8 non-magical piercing) and we can use it for several hits the entire minute. Once we hit level 7 and can make proper use of our 3rd-level spell-slot, we simply replace Shadow Blade with _Fireball, Web, Haste, _.

If you feel like your AC is high enough as is, you can replace the _Shield_ spell with another buff. It's usually safer to keep _Shield_ ready, but sometimes you have good magic items early (Ring of Protection, Shield +1, ) or late in the game (Ioun Stones, Staff of Power, ), or regular buffs in your party (e.g. Haste, Shield of Faith).

Due to the high AC covering our defense against attacks, it might be good to look for some ways to increase defense against energy type spells based on saving throws¹. As an Aasimar you're resistant to radiant & necrotic, and Storm sorcerers 6+ get free resistance to lightning & thunder, but at least fire is frequently encountered (Fireball, ) and your DEX saves won't ever improve beyond +2. You do have _Absorb Elements_, but in the long term we should look for ways to reduce that vulnerability (a Frostbrand Rapier would be very nice!), or we might have to reconsider _Fire Shield_. And let's not forget the threat of force & psychic damage, that often go against INT saves, and which penetrate _Absorb Elements_; _Shield_ protects against _Magic Missile_ only, not against all force damage spells. It's definitely a good idea to look for a Plate Armor of xxx Resistance, where the resistance type should best suit our needs; and if these other types of damage show up only rarely in your campaign, take resistance against bludgeoning  this damage type often shows up outside of normal attacks, usually in water & earth spells or as falling/crushing damage.

Fortunately, with Spell Versatility we can always change 1 spell per long rest to accommodate our party's needs; e.g. _Investiture of Flame/Ice_ when you're likely to face enemies with fire/cold attacks, as you maintain the fire/cold immunities & resistances as part of the spell even when you change it's damage type with Elemental Spell. But those spells are for character levels 13+

And don't forget you can use Twinned on your cleric spells as well: _Healing Word, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Guiding Bolt_,  are great spells and especially _Guiding Bolt_ is an excellent twin candidate: 2 x 4d6 radiant damage + advantage on attack roll, even a little stronger than _Chromatic Orb_. Always adjust the cleric spells to your needs, especially since some of these spells can't keep up with higher levels (e.g. _Booming Blade_ cantrip beats _Guiding Bolt_ 1-spell, past character level 11). You're also a cleric ritual caster concerning these 1st-level spells, but you need to prepare them; so preparing _Detect Magic, Detect Poison and Disease, Purify Food and Drink, Ceremony_ for ritual casting can come in handy under circumstances.

Speaking of cleric spells, if you want to drop some excess gold into single-use items, buy a scroll of _Spirit Guardians_ (spell scrolls are still considered "uncommon" until spell-level 3, not "rare"), or any other spell scroll your party wants to have (twinned) available; for example, iirc, a twinned Revivify spell scroll is cheaper than buying the Raise Dead religious service twice in town.

----------


## AgenderArcee

I hope this is OK for this thread, I've just been having a lot of fun thinking about it. I know Sorcadins are nothing new and I'm sure the basic idea has been done, but I think this particular build is still worth talking about.

Fire Dragon God Warrior



Variant Human Draconic (Gold or Red) Sorcerer 14/Vengeance Paladin 6

Stats (Point Buy): 16 Str / 8 Dex / 14 Con / 10 Int / 10 Wis / 16 Cha
With Belt of Storm Giant Strength at creation (Level 20 one-shot build): 8->29 Str / 8 Dex / 16 Con / 12 Int / 13 Wis / 16 Cha
Feats/ASIs: Great Weapon Master, Cha to 20, Elemental Adept (Fire), War Caster or Resilient: Con (optional, may replace with Str 18 if no Str-boosting items available) 
Metamagics: *Quickened*, Careful, Empowered

I really wanted to do this with Dragonborn instead of Vuman but it doesn't get you anything other than the aesthetic really. Even with the Belt of Giant Strength, to max your Cha and get Elemental Adept and GWM you'd lose your chance to get War Caster or Resilient: Con (may be preferred if you start Paladin for Wis saves and have a 15 Con). You could ask your DM to let you flavor your character as a human transformed into a Dragonborn-like appearance along with the scales and wings.

Belt of Giant Strength should be top priority if you can pick magic items, and Tome of Leadership and Influence can either save you an ASI or boost your Cha to 22. +1/2/3 Plate should definitely be taken if possible after these two. You'll also need a _non-magical_ greatsword or greataxe.

The important spell choices for this build are *Green-Flame Blade* from Sorcerer and *Elemental Weapon* from Paladin. You should definitely also take Shield and some fire damage spells, particularly Fireball, but as a backup take one or two options that work on fire-immune enemies, like Lightning Bolt. If UA Class Feature Variants are allowed, Fire Shield is a nice and thematic non-Concentration buff. Other spells are up to you: I like to keep some healing spells on hand, particularly Revivify and Lesser Restoration; Find Steed is still useful despite your wings since your speed is still 30 feet; Counterspell and True Seeing are always great to have. Searing Smite is a tempting trap, you'll be better served keeping your Concentration focused on Elemental Weapon. And if you're ever in the situation where you lose Elemental Weapon and can't make another 7th level spell slot, Magic Weapon is a worthwhile backup to hold on to.

The basic idea of this build is to be awesome flying draconic warrior with a badass flaming sword. Between 7th-level Elemental Weapon, Elemental Affinity and Great Weapon Master, your weapon attacks will be +3 to counterbalance the -5, and do 2d6+Str+3d4+Cha+10 damage per hit. The kicker, though, is following your action up with Quickened Green Flame Blade, making a third attack that does *deep breath* 2d6+Str+3d4+Cha+10+3d8+Cha, along with 3d8+Cha fire damage to another enemy within 5 feet. That's _without_ Divine Smite, because let's not forget that you still have Divine Smite. With that many damage dice, your crits will be something to behold, and let's not forget that all 1s with fire damage are treated as 2s.

And if your enemies manage to get too far out of your reach for melee, you can always blast them with a +5 upcast Fireball.

_(EDIT: It seems like according to Jeremy Crawford, you should only be able to add your Cha mod to one damage roll per casting of Elemental Weapon, not one per every hit. So unless you have a permissive DM, you'll actually benefit from Elemental Affinity only on Green-Flame Blade.)
_
Vengeance Paladin's Vow of Enmity gives you advantage on every attack against one enemy for one minute, which would be great for boss fights. Alternatively, go Devotion and add your Charisma modifier to every attack roll for a minute per short rest.

Obviously this gets a little less fun if your DM decides to be a party pooper and throw enemies with fire immunity at you, but even in that case, you're still a full GWM Sorcadin with a 30 ft. flight speed, which isn't the worst place to be!

----------


## MaxWilson

> The basic idea of this build is to be awesome flying draconic warrior with a badass flaming sword. Between 7th-level Elemental Weapon, Elemental Affinity and Great Weapon Master, your weapon attacks will be +3 to counterbalance the -5, and do 2d6+Str+3d4+Cha+13 damage per hit. The kicker, though, is following your action up with Quickened Green Flame Blade, making a third attack that does *deep breath* 2d6+Str+*3d4+Cha*+13+3d8+Cha, along with 3d8+2xCha fire damage to another enemy within 5 feet.


Interesting build. Minor nitpick: according to the errata and the latest versions of the PHB, with Elemental Affinity, "... draconic ancestry, you can add your Charisma modifier to *one damage roll* of that spell," not all rolls, so you won't be getting +Cha on every Elemental Weapon hit, just the first one.

Also would you mind explaining the +13? I get that +10 of it is from GWM, what's the other +3?

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## AgenderArcee

> Interesting build. Minor nitpick: according to the errata and the latest versions of the PHB, with Elemental Affinity, "... draconic ancestry, you can add your Charisma modifier to *one damage roll* of that spell," not all rolls, so you won't be getting +Cha on every Elemental Weapon hit, just the first one.
> 
> Also would you mind explaining the +13? I get that +10 of it is from GWM, what's the other +3?


Oh hmm, would that be just the first one every turn or only the first one after the spell is cast? That would make things difficult if it's the latter.

EDIT: Oh rip Crawford seems to have ruled that Elemental Affinity doesn't apply to Elemental Weapon RAI, with allowance that a DM can rule it as applying to one roll (though he doesn't clarify whether that means one roll per round or one roll per casting). Although Mearls said he thinks it should apply for every hit, though Crawford outranks him. 

The +3 is from casting Elemental Weapon at 7th level, which adds +3 to attack and damage rolls!

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## MaxWilson

> Oh hmm, would that be just the first one every turn or only the first one after the spell is cast? That would make things difficult if it's the latter.
> 
> EDIT: Oh rip Crawford seems to have ruled that Elemental Affinity doesn't apply to Elemental Weapon RAI, with allowance that a DM can rule it as applying to one roll (though he doesn't clarify whether that means one roll per round or one roll per casting). Although Mearls said he thinks it should apply for every hit, though Crawford outranks him. 
> 
> The +3 is from casting Elemental Weapon at 7th level, which adds +3 to attack and damage rolls!


Mearl's answer was for old versions of the PHB before the wording was changed. Presumably Mearls would also say that it only works for one roll, at most, now.

I think Mearls "outranks" Jeremy from a creative design standpoint (Mearls is head designer, Jeremy is developer) but Jeremy is the guy whose job it is to answer Tweets--it makes sense when Mearls wants Jeremy to check the rulebooks for him.

Also, Elemental Weapon gives +3 to hit, not to damage. You're already getting +3d4 damage, you don't get +3 damage on top of that. +13 should be +10.

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## AgenderArcee

> Mearl's answer was for old versions of the PHB before the wording was changed. Presumably Mearls would also say that it only works for one roll, at most, now.
> 
> I think Mearls "outranks" Jeremy from a creative design standpoint (Mearls is head designer, Jeremy is developer) but Jeremy is the guy whose job it is to answer Tweets--it makes sense when Mearls wants Jeremy to check the rulebooks for him.
> 
> Also, Elemental Weapon gives +3 to hit, not to damage. You're already getting +3d4 damage, you don't get +3 damage on top of that. +13 should be +10.


Aw dang you're right, I must have gotten it mixed up with the idea of "being a +3 weapon." It's true that the 3d4 is already pretty darn good haha.

I believe you should still be able to benefit from Elemental Affinity when using Green-Flame Blade, though.

In fact, interestingly, it seems that casting GFB as an action (before Quickening a second one) actually does slightly _more_ total damage than the two normal weapon attacks now, but only if you're able to get the bonus damage on the secondary target (calculations done assuming 29 Str and 20 Cha):

Elemental Weapon two attacks:
2d6+9+10+3d4 = 27-43, avg. 34.25
*2 = 54-86, avg. 68.5

vs.

Green Flame blade w/ Elemental Affinity
2d6+9+10+3d4+3d8+5 = 38-72, avg. 53.125
+3d8+5 on another target = 11-29, avg. 18.875
Total: 49-101, avg. 72

It's small but it does make a difference that with Elemental Adept all 1s become 2s on all those d4s (avg. 2.5->2.75) and d8s (avg. 4.5->4.625).

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## Theaitetos

> Elemental Weapon two attacks:
> 2d6+9+10+3d4 = 27-43, avg. 34.25
> *2 = 54-86, avg. 68.5
> 
> vs.
> 
> Green Flame blade w/ Elemental Affinity
> 2d6+9+10+3d4+3d8+5 = 38-72, avg. 53.125
> +3d8+5 on another target = 11-29, avg. 18.875
> Total: 49-101, avg. 72


Your second calculation includes the +5 CHA modifier from GFB twice, which is not how it works RAW. So the average of the second option drops by 5, to a total of 67.



I think going for _Elemental Weapon_ is a bold choice, one that I contemplated a lot lately too. So I have some food for thought, if you entertain it:



Your metamagic choices seem wasted, as Careful Spell is generally very weak and Quickened might be contrary to the build idea.

Careful Spell: Remember that a Paladin 6+ has a 10ft radius aura, that grants you & your allies saving throw bonuses equal to your CHA modifier (+5); so even if you cast _Fireball_ closeby, your allies are most likely to make the DEX saving throw, and if you're casting it long range then your allies are likely not inside the blast zone anyway. And generally, it's possible to cast a spell in such a way to avoid allies getting hit by targeting the air above the battlefield; and remember that some allies might actually have great DEX saving throws or specific abilities to avoid damage.

Quicken is useful for blasting heavy amounts of damage in one round [some here call it "nova", but I'm old-school and call it "burst"; in the past "nova" referred to aoe attacks in the vicinity], but your main shtick seems to be using _Elemental Weapon_ to the fullest extent possible, so you should make sure you do that, not spend your precious sorcery points on things you don't necessarily need. Instead, I recommend you take a look at some nice weapons, like a Double-Bladed Scimitar (instead of a Great-sword), as it allows you to do a Bonus Attack action with it:




> Martial Weapon, Melee Weapon
> 2d4 slashing  Special, Two-Handed
> 
> *Special:* If you attack with a double-bladed scimitar as part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action immediately after to make a melee attack with it. This attack deals 1d4 slashing damage on a hit, instead of 2d4.
> 
> *Two-Handed:* This weapon requires two hands to use. This property is relevant only when you attack with the weapon, not when you simply hold it.


And _Elemental Weapon_ improves the Bonus Action attack as well, so we're looking at a free 1d4 (slashing) +3d4 (fire) +9 (STR mod) +10 (GWM) = 29.75 avg damage hit on a bonus action.
You have to use the Attack action in a turn that you use this  so you can't use _GFB_ or something like it  you have to stick with option 1. But I think this is a very efficient use of your bonus action and makes use of your _Elemental Weapon_ for a third attack in one round.

You can still keep Quickened Spell as metamagic, so you can use _Elemental Weapon_ for two attacks and cast a quickened _Fireball_.
But how about we replace at least Careful Spell with Twinned Spell? Maybe you have an ally that would like to get a free _Elemental Weapon_ too? I'm sure someone in your party would make great use of it  the second effect doesn't even have to be Fire type, but can be Acid or Lightning, and still profit from the Elemental Adept feat.
Or instead take Elemental Spell (if you play with the UA CFV), so _Chain Lightning_ and other spells can be cast with Fire damage.

Keep also an eye out for spell scrolls: Even if you cannot cast 3rd-level Paladin spells normally, you can still use spell scrolls with spells from your spell list. Using a spell scroll for a spell of higher level requires a CHA ability check against a DC of 10 + spell-level, for example _Find Greater Steed_ would be a DC 14. You can use your metamagic with those scrolls as well, so you could twin a _Revivify_ spell scroll.



The War Caster feat is pretty weak for your build:
1) You are using a two-handed weapon and therefore always have a free hand to cast spells with Somatic and Material components.
2) You don't have good spells to waste on enemies during an opportunity attack, just hit them with your powerful _Elemental Weapon_. [_Green-Flame Blade_ isn't allowed for such an OA spell anyway.]
3) Advantage on concentration saves is not necessary, even if you don't have CON proficiency. You have +5 on all saving throws thanks to your Paladin 6+ aura, and if you can raise your CON score by 2 and maybe drop STR by 2 (especially with the Belt of Giant Strength), then you'd already have +8 on all CON saving throws, failing concentration checks only with 5% chance. Now add one measly spell or item (e.g. Bless or Ring of Protection +1) and you have at least +9, which means you don't fail DC 10 concentration checks.
[Provided you don't take 21+ damage per hit. If you get hit by something like this, use your Reaction for _Shield_ or _Absorb Elements_ and you should be fine.]

The third point is valid for the Resilient (CON) feat as well.

And now, with the need for those feats gone, you can finally make this build with a Dragonborn.  :Small Smile: 




p.s.: Your one-shot build with Belt of Storm Giant Strength has STR 8, which is not sufficient to multiclass in/out of Paladin; only natural stats are allowed for determining multiclass options.

----------


## bendking

> If you take the Aasimar, then you can drop _Cure Wounds_ altogether imo, as you then have a strong racial touch-range healing ability (Healing Hands 1hp per level /long rest). I was mainly concerned about self-healing, since the build is a front-line tank with low hp.
> 
> Well, it depends on whether Radiant Consumption's light is considered non-magical or not: If it's non-magical, then it won't illuminate the _Darkness_ (but would definitely work in an anti-magic field). If it's not non-magical, then it illuminates the _Darkness_.
> 
> I say it's non-magical and therefore illuminate the _Darkness_, and I think Jeremy Crawford agrees:
> https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/21...arkness-spell/
> https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...14071571341314
> 
> So yeah, make those Drow finally see the light again!


It was recently noted to me that Scourge Aasimar will force Concentration Checks every damn round. This kind of takes it out of the running, unless you have a Paladin or some other way to increase your CON saves to 9+. I'll note it as a variant option for the build, but it's way more dependent on party composition than a straight V.Human.
Also, Radiant Consumption forces death saves when you're unconscious, depending on your DM. RAW, it definitely will. Reasonably, it shouldn't.




> I think at this point the build is pretty optimized for its own purposes. I noticed in my evaluations that it starts getting too dependent on the individual party composition. For example:
> 
> If you have a backliner with _Warding Bond_ (cleric, paladin, ranger), then the hitpoint concern of _Fire Shield_ is not that big. And in case someone goes with a Levistus Tiefling build variant, then _Armor of Agathys_ gets empowered by _Warding Bond_ as well. *Spoiler: More on the intricacies of Fire Shield*
> Show
> 
> I like _Fire Shield_ for its versatility in either giving fire or cold resistance, and even better since it requires no concentration!
> However, my main concern with _Fire Shield_ is that you are unlikely to be hit by melee attacks in the first place due to high AC. You do have a pretty good AC (heavy armor + shield), that you can raise even higher with the _Shield_ spell; and if you are _Haste_d (see below), then this could easily rise above 27 AC, so _Fire Shield_'s on-hit effect would hardly ever be used. Now, the weird triggering mechanics of the _Shield_ spell make it count as you being hit (so _Fire Shield_ would trigger its damage) even if you negate the damage, but this would work only on the first hit directly when you cast _Shield_, not on any subsequent hits while _Shield_ is still in effect.


I agree things are starting to getting situational. I'm happy with where the build is now, so thank you for all your suggestions :)
Anyway, I agree Fire Shield is not optimal (unless you have some sort of resistance).




> If you have someone else in the party who can cast _Bless_, then you're free to use your concentration for something like twinned _Haste_ or twinned _Greater Invisibility_  the former is better for hard-hitters (e.g. GWM) and the latter is better for many-hitters & sneak attacks (e.g. Fighters & Rogues)  whatever the party needs most. In that case I would take _Shadow Blade_ from levels 5 to 6 (Cleric 2/Sorcerer 3+) instead of _Web_, because this spell scales much better than any other of our spells from the 2nd- to 3rd-level spell-slot: 2d8→3d8 psychic damage per hit; that's much stronger than our Rapier (1d8 non-magical piercing) and we can use it for several hits the entire minute. Once we hit level 7 and can make proper use of our 3rd-level spell-slot, we simply replace Shadow Blade with _Fireball, Web, Haste, _.
> 
> If you feel like your AC is high enough as is, you can replace the _Shield_ spell with another buff. It's usually safer to keep _Shield_ ready, but sometimes you have good magic items early (Ring of Protection, Shield +1, ) or late in the game (Ioun Stones, Staff of Power, ), or regular buffs in your party (e.g. Haste, Shield of Faith).


I slotted in Greater Invisibility instead of Vitriolic sphere for a few reasons:
1) I feel like we already have stuff in the place of Vitriolic Sphere that we don't need another blast. Fireball will suffice and it even does more damage when maximized.
2) Greater Invisibility is quite good to Twin on ourselves and another person, since we're the tank anyway! I've explained this further in the original post.
3) Haste is risky on us, since _we're the tank_ and we're going to take a few hits. We'd have to be pretty careful with it, so I opted for G. Invisibility which capitalizes on our tankiness and makes up for our sub-optimal attack bonus. 

Also, I will never not take Shield, since AC in 5e has *increasing returns*, Shield actually becomes *more powerful* the higher your AC is.




> Due to the high AC covering our defense against attacks, it might be good to look for some ways to increase defense against energy type spells based on saving throws¹. As an Aasimar you're resistant to radiant & necrotic, and Storm sorcerers 6+ get free resistance to lightning & thunder, but at least fire is frequently encountered (Fireball, ) and your DEX saves won't ever improve beyond +2. You do have _Absorb Elements_, but in the long term we should look for ways to reduce that vulnerability (a Frostbrand Rapier would be very nice!), or we might have to reconsider _Fire Shield_. And let's not forget the threat of force & psychic damage, that often go against INT saves, and which penetrate _Absorb Elements_; _Shield_ protects against _Magic Missile_ only, not against all force damage spells. It's definitely a good idea to look for a Plate Armor of xxx Resistance, where the resistance type should best suit our needs; and if these other types of damage show up only rarely in your campaign, take resistance against bludgeoning  this damage type often shows up outside of normal attacks, usually in water & earth spells or as falling/crushing damage.
> 
> Fortunately, with Spell Versatility we can always change 1 spell per long rest to accommodate our party's needs; e.g. _Investiture of Flame/Ice_ when you're likely to face enemies with fire/cold attacks, as you maintain the fire/cold immunities & resistances as part of the spell even when you change it's damage type with Elemental Spell. But those spells are for character levels 13+


Thanks for the suggestions! Unfortunately I usually don't get much of a say in which magic items I get, but it's definitely good to look out for more defensive items.




> And don't forget you can use Twinned on your cleric spells as well: _Healing Word, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Guiding Bolt_,  are great spells and especially _Guiding Bolt_ is an excellent twin candidate: 2 x 4d6 radiant damage + advantage on attack roll, even a little stronger than _Chromatic Orb_. Always adjust the cleric spells to your needs, especially since some of these spells can't keep up with higher levels (e.g. _Booming Blade_ cantrip beats _Guiding Bolt_ 1-spell, past character level 11). You're also a cleric ritual caster concerning these 1st-level spells, but you need to prepare them; so preparing _Detect Magic, Detect Poison and Disease, Purify Food and Drink, Ceremony_ for ritual casting can come in handy under circumstances.
> 
> Speaking of cleric spells, if you want to drop some excess gold into single-use items, buy a scroll of _Spirit Guardians_ (spell scrolls are still considered "uncommon" until spell-level 3, not "rare"), or any other spell scroll your party wants to have (twinned) available; for example, iirc, a twinned Revivify spell scroll is cheaper than buying the Raise Dead religious service twice in town.


Oh yes. We can twin so many good spells. I've listed them all in the original post.
By the way, I'm thinking maybe Shield of Faith would be better than Sanctuary, because it's DC independent, and our WIS DC is... not good.




> -snip-


Isn't Elemental Weapon a 3rd level spell? You would only be able to get it at Paladin 9, not 6.

----------


## Theaitetos

> It was recently noted to me that Scourge Aasimar will force Concentration Checks every damn round. This kind of takes it out of the running, unless you have a Paladin or some other way to increase your CON saves to 9+. I'll note it as a variant option for the build, but it's way more dependent on party composition than a straight V.Human.
> Also, Radiant Consumption forces death saves when you're unconscious, depending on your DM. RAW, it definitely will. Reasonably, it shouldn't.


Damn, you're right. That sucks horribly.  :Small Furious: 




> By the way, I'm thinking maybe Shield of Faith would be better than Sanctuary, because it's DC independent, and our WIS DC is... not good.


It's not that bad. Ever since the DCs are calculated independent from class, they have risen substantially for multi-class characters, e.g. with WIS 14 and CHA 18, your spell save DC is just 2 points lower on cleric than sorcerer spells.

More importantly, _Sanctuary_ works on all kinds of spells and attacks, while _Shield of Faith_ just raises AC by +2. And prohibitively: _Shield of Faith_ is a concentration spell.




> Isn't Elemental Weapon a 3rd level spell? You would only be able to get it at Paladin 9, not 6.


I didn't even notice that.  :Small Confused: 

Then this build requires Ravenica's Izzet Engineer background to work; not even spell scrolls can help since he wants to upcast it to 7th-level.

----------


## AgenderArcee

Ah shoot, I can't believe I got my full casters and half-casters mixed up there. You're right, Elemental Weapon would only be available with Izzet background or Mark of Making human! That puts a damper on things. (Btw, no big deal but I'm not a he!)




> Your second calculation includes the +5 CHA modifier from GFB twice, which is not how it works RAW. So the average of the second option drops by 5, to a total of 67.


The first +5 Cha modifier comes from Elemental Affinity, the second comes from GFB itself. "The second creature takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier," with 3d8 added by 17th level.




> Your metamagic choices seem wasted, as Careful Spell is generally very weak and Quickened might be contrary to the build idea.
> 
> Careful Spell: Remember that a Paladin 6+ has a 10ft radius aura, that grants you & your allies saving throw bonuses equal to your CHA modifier (+5); so even if you cast _Fireball_ closeby, your allies are most likely to make the DEX saving throw, and if you're casting it long range then your allies are likely not inside the blast zone anyway. And generally, it's possible to cast a spell in such a way to avoid allies getting hit by targeting the air above the battlefield; and remember that some allies might actually have great DEX saving throws or specific abilities to avoid damage.
> 
> Quicken is useful for blasting heavy amounts of damage in one round [some here call it "nova", but I'm old-school and call it "burst"; in the past "nova" referred to aoe attacks in the vicinity], but your main shtick seems to be using _Elemental Weapon_ to the fullest extent possible, so you should make sure you do that, not spend your precious sorcery points on things you don't necessarily need.


Fair points, fair points! I've never actually played a Sorcadin so I don't have a strong intuitive sense of the resource management involved, but it's true that without breaking down spell slots you only have enough sorcery points to Quicken seven times per long rest, which isn't a ton. 





> Instead, I recommend you take a look at some nice weapons, like a Double-Bladed Scimitar (instead of a Great-sword), as it allows you to do a Bonus Attack action with it:
> 
> And _Elemental Weapon_ improves the Bonus Action attack as well, so we're looking at a free 1d4 (slashing) +3d4 (fire) +9 (STR mod) +10 (GWM) = 29.75 avg damage hit on a bonus action.
> You have to use the Attack action in a turn that you use this  so you can't use _GFB_ or something like it  you have to stick with option 1. But I think this is a very efficient use of your bonus action and makes use of your _Elemental Weapon_ for a third attack in one round.


Double-bladed scimitar isn't heavy, so I don't think it would work with GWM? However, this does raise the point that PAM + GWM with a glaive or halberd would fit this concept well. You can then save your Quickens for burst damage, or at least have a good backup once they run out.





> You can still keep Quickened Spell as metamagic, so you can use _Elemental Weapon_ for two attacks and cast a quickened _Fireball_.
> But how about we replace at least Careful Spell with Twinned Spell? Maybe you have an ally that would like to get a free _Elemental Weapon_ too? I'm sure someone in your party would make great use of it  the second effect doesn't even have to be Fire type, but can be Acid or Lightning, and still profit from the Elemental Adept feat.
> Or instead take Elemental Spell (if you play with the UA CFV), so _Chain Lightning_ and other spells can be cast with Fire damage.


True, I forgot Elemental Weapon can be Twinned!




> Keep also an eye out for spell scrolls: Even if you cannot cast 3rd-level Paladin spells normally, you can still use spell scrolls with spells from your spell list. Using a spell scroll for a spell of higher level requires a CHA ability check against a DC of 10 + spell-level, for example _Find Greater Steed_ would be a DC 14. You can use your metamagic with those scrolls as well, so you could twin a _Revivify_ spell scroll.


I appreciate you pointing this out lol. I still feel like it messes up the build to not have natural access to it. I suppose the Izzet background would work too, as you said, or Mark of Making from Eberron.




> The War Caster feat is pretty weak for your build:
> 1) You are using a two-handed weapon and therefore always have a free hand to cast spells with Somatic and Material components.
> 2) You don't have good spells to waste on enemies during an opportunity attack, just hit them with your powerful _Elemental Weapon_. [_Green-Flame Blade_ isn't allowed for such an OA spell anyway.]
> 3) Advantage on concentration saves is not necessary, even if you don't have CON proficiency. You have +5 on all saving throws thanks to your Paladin 6+ aura, and if you can raise your CON score by 2 and maybe drop STR by 2 (especially with the Belt of Giant Strength), then you'd already have +8 on all CON saving throws, failing concentration checks only with 5% chance. Now add one measly spell or item (e.g. Bless or Ring of Protection +1) and you have at least +9, which means you don't fail DC 10 concentration checks.
> [Provided you don't take 21+ damage per hit. If you get hit by something like this, use your Reaction for _Shield_ or _Absorb Elements_ and you should be fine.]
> 
> The third point is valid for the Resilient (CON) feat as well.
> 
> And now, with the need for those feats gone, you can finally make this build with a Dragonborn.


Good points, I may have been a little overcautious with this. I think having only one 7th level slot just made me determined to minimize the possibility of losing Concentration.




> p.s.: Your one-shot build with Belt of Storm Giant Strength has STR 8, which is not sufficient to multiclass in/out of Paladin; only natural stats are allowed for determining multiclass options.


Ahh thanks, I wasn't sure about that. I even calculated the stat spread required for starting at 13 Str (13/8/16/10/10/16) but I wasn't sure it worked that way and didn't want to take up unnecessary space.

It occurs to me that Forge Cleric does get Elemental Weapon, plus at level 14 you get 2d8 fire damage per hit... I'll be sad to lose the wings, but I wonder how a Palacleric build focused around this spell would work?

----------


## Theaitetos

> The first +5 Cha modifier comes from Elemental Affinity, the second comes from GFB itself. "The second creature takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier," with 3d8 added by 17th level.


Ah, I see, you're right. Mea culpa.




> Double-bladed scimitar isn't heavy, so I don't think it would work with GWM? However, this does raise the point that PAM + GWM with a glaive or halberd would fit this concept well. You can then save your Quickens for burst damage, or at least have a good backup once they run out.


True, that wouldn't work. However, are you sure GWM is worth it? Have you calculated the AC breaking point (with or without the Belt of Giant Strength)?




> It occurs to me that Forge Cleric does get Elemental Weapon, plus at level 14 you get 2d8 fire damage per hit... I'll be sad to lose the wings, but I wonder how a Palacleric build focused around this spell would work?


Hmmm? What character exactly are you trying to create? Is it just about Dragonborn & Fire & Big Sword? What about flying? What about divine smite?

A Forge Cleric might indeed be what you seek: You can still be the big bad fire dragon greatsword knight in heavy armor. You can even get immunity to fire damage and resistance to slashing & piercing & bludgeoning at cleric level 17. You'd still have _Fire Storm_ (7th level spell) and _Flame Strike_ (5th level spell) as blasting fire spells, though no others; _Wall of Fire_ (4th), _Heat Metal_ (2nd), and _Searing Smite_ (1st) are concentration spells conflicting with _Elemental Weapon_. No flight.

You could also try a Hexblade Warlock 5 / Draconic Sorcerer 15 build. You lose 9th level spells and you would be seriously delayed in upcasting Elemental Weapon to the 7th spell slot: Instead of level 13, you'd have to wait to level 18 to upcast it to level 7. However, getting it & casting it normally is possible at level 5, as is usual for a 3rd-level spell. That way you can get your wings at level 19.

Or you could give up on the Elemental Weapon spell and instead get this item:




> Martial Melee Weapon (Attunement)
> 2d4 slashing  Special, Two-Handed
> 
> You can use a bonus action to speak this magic sword's command word, causing flames to erupt from the blade. These flames shed bright light in a 40-foot radius and dim light for an additional 40 feet. While the sword is ablaze, it deals an extra 2d6 fire damage to any target it hits. The flames last until you use a bonus action to speak the command word again or until you drop or sheathe the sword.
> 
> *Special:* If you attack with a double-bladed scimitar as part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action immediately after to make a melee attack with it. This attack deals 1d4 slashing damage on a hit, instead of 2d4.
> 
> *Two-Handed:* This weapon requires two hands to use. This property is relevant only when you attack with the weapon, not when you simply hold it.


Or a Flame Tongue Great-Sword to go with GWM. Then you'd be freed from the necessity to chase _Elemental Weapon_ in spell lists and could focus more on everything else you want.

If you want to get flight, there are some options: Winged Tieflings have 30ft flight right from the very beginning at level 1 (no heavy armor). Aaracokra can fly at 50ft (only light armor). Sorcerers often get flight (Draconic & Divine at 14, Storm at 18). Barbarians (Totem Warrior Eagle) can "fly" on their own turns. The Protector Aasimar gets 1minute of flight once a day. There are items that grant flying for short amounts of time every day (require attunement).

Heavy Armor is difficult to achieve (unless you spend an ASI), as it requires either starting with a Fighter¹ or Paladin¹, a multiclass dip into specific Cleric domains (Forge, Life, Nature, Order, Tempest¹, War¹), or a level 3 Bladelock (Eldritch Armor invocation).
¹: includes Martial weapon proficiency

I'd say Bladelock is the easiest way of getting a lot of things done, and if you don't get a Belt of Giant Strength, then you don't have to invest too much into STR as the Hexblade¹ Bladelock can use CHA as weapon ability. If you do get a belt, any Bladelock will do.

----------


## AgenderArcee

> True, that wouldn't work. However, are you sure GWM is worth it? Have you calculated the AC breaking point (with or without the Belt of Giant Strength)?


What exactly do you mean by "breaking point"? Like the point where it becomes unlikely to hit? With the Belt it'd be +13 with the -5, which doesn't seem too bad to me. Without, it'd only be +9, so might be best reserved for Channel Divinity. 




> Hmmm? What character exactly are you trying to create? Is it just about Dragonborn & Fire & Big Sword? What about flying? What about divine smite?
> 
> A Forge Cleric might indeed be what you seek: You can still be the big bad fire dragon greatsword knight in heavy armor. You can even get immunity to fire damage and resistance to slashing & piercing & bludgeoning at cleric level 17. You'd still have _Fire Storm_ (7th level spell) and _Flame Strike_ (5th level spell) as blasting fire spells, though no others; _Wall of Fire_ (4th), _Heat Metal_ (2nd), and _Searing Smite_ (1st) are concentration spells conflicting with _Elemental Weapon_. No flight.


Oh I was just spitballing lol, maybe splitting this into two separate character ideas. Another possible variation could be Draconic Sorcerer 6/Forge Cleric 14, sacrificing Paladin features to focus on Green-Flame Blade and fire magic. You'd lose a lot of melee capability against fire immune enemies, of course, but it'd be a good fit for the gimmick at least. :P




> You could also try a Hexblade Warlock 5 / Draconic Sorcerer 15 build. You lose 9th level spells and you would be seriously delayed in upcasting Elemental Weapon to the 7th spell slot: Instead of level 13, you'd have to wait to level 18 to upcast it to level 7. However, getting it & casting it normally is possible at level 5, as is usual for a 3rd-level spell. That way you can get your wings at level 19.


Huh, I didn't know Hexblade got Elemental Weapon! That is a potentially interesting idea, although honestly I'm a little tired of Hexblade lol. That aside, it occurs to me that you could squeeze in a level of Fighter there with Sorcerer 14/Hexblade 5/Fighter 1 and get a little extra bang for your buck in the form of a Fighting Style, heavy armor and Second Wind.




> Or you could give up on the Elemental Weapon spell and instead get this item:
> 
> Or a Flame Tongue Great-Sword to go with GWM. Then you'd be freed from the necessity to chase _Elemental Weapon_ in spell lists and could focus more on everything else you want.


True! I think a Sorcadin with a Flame Tongue Greatsword is more what I'm looking for. I like the idea of getting the flight from dragon wings, haha. Of course, at this point it doesn't stand out as a Build so much, but then the realization that Elemental Affinity doesn't really work with Elemental Weapon already kind of put a damper on things. Oh well! It's still nice to have Quickened Elemental Affinity GFB for some extra burst damage.

----------


## Theaitetos

> What exactly do you mean by "breaking point"? Like the point where it becomes unlikely to hit? With the Belt it'd be +13 with the -5, which doesn't seem too bad to me. Without, it'd only be +9, so might be best reserved for Channel Divinity.


There's a formula to calculate at which AC point it's better to use GWM or not:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-10-Like-a-Pro





> Huh, I didn't know Hexblade got Elemental Weapon! That is a potentially interesting idea, although honestly I'm a little tired of Hexblade lol. That aside, it occurs to me that you could squeeze in a level of Fighter there with Sorcerer 14/Hexblade 5/Fighter 1 and get a little extra bang for your buck in the form of a Fighting Style, heavy armor and Second Wind.


Bladelocks can wear any armor with the Eldritch Armor invocation, no need for proficiencies anymore. And this single Fighter level would cost you your precious 8th-level spells as a Sorcerer, so definitely not worth it.




> True! I think a Sorcadin with a Flame Tongue Greatsword is more what I'm looking for. I like the idea of getting the flight from dragon wings, haha. Of course, at this point it doesn't stand out as a Build so much, but then the realization that Elemental Affinity doesn't really work with Elemental Weapon already kind of put a damper on things. Oh well! It's still nice to have Quickened Elemental Affinity GFB for some extra burst damage.


Remember that in builds without Elemental Weapon you will have concentration available for another spell, e.g. _Smites, Enlarge, Divine Favor, Haste, Flame Shield, _, thereby increasing your dpr.

----------


## Orc_Lord

> How about a Dex-based Eldritch Knight 12 / War Mage 8 focusing on using Shadow Blade?  Can also use Mage Armor to get plate-like AC while still being stealthy and having a great initiative.  Bonus points for being able to magically summon all of your arms and armor and have 26 AC in a ball gown.  
> 
> Arcane Deflection + Indomitable + Lucky all stack to give you great save coverage.  Warding Wind is a good spell on the Abjuration/Evocation list which protects you and everyone behind you from ranged attacks (and some other things).  War Caster will help keep your Concentration up, and SB / WC / Booming Blade OAs will make you stickier than the average Fighter.  Shadow Blade gives you fantastic damage scaling as a Fighter and this build has enough spell slots to be casting it every encounter (by around mid-levels).


I have been tracking all your EK builds you have posted at various threads

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...3&postcount=23
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...2&postcount=19
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...73&postcount=4
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...3&postcount=17
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...4&postcount=13

You should probably use the 2nd link and create a full blown EK guide ala Nuclear Wizard style  :Small Cool:

----------


## bendking

> I have been tracking all your EK builds you have posted at various threads
> 
> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...3&postcount=23
> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...2&postcount=19
> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...73&postcount=4
> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...3&postcount=17
> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...4&postcount=13
> 
> You should probably use the 2nd link and create a full blown EK guide ala Nuclear Wizard style


It's worth mentioning EK will never be as broken as Nuclear Wizard. Like, never. Wizard is the most broken class in the game bar none.
EK mainly is a super duper tank, I dare say the tankiest of them all (other than the Wizard himself, of course). Other than that, he has really solid damage, doubly so when you start upcasting Shadow Blade, but he will still lag in damage behind pure DPR builds like Crossbow Expert - Sharpshooter and the like for most of the game.

----------


## Theaitetos

> I'll note it as a variant option for the build, but it's way more dependent on party composition than a straight V.Human.


I have three other variants to add  Kalashtar (Eberron), Triton & Yuan-Ti (Volo). They're weaker than Variant Human because of the delay in feats/ASIs ofc, but might be useful anyway. They all add one resistance type and round out our stats:

Triton (STR-build): STR 14+1 / DEX 9 / CON 13+1 / INT 8 / WIS 13 / CHA 15+1
The STR build can be done with a Triton (STR+1, CON+1, CHA+1), that is usually a paladin race, but works well here. That way there's no loss to CON, we get amphibious breathing & swimming, resistance to Cold damage, and three free spells: _Fog Cloud_, _Gust of Wind_, _Wall of Water_. We already have _Fog Cloud_ as Domain spell, but it's good to get 1 cast per day for free. For some absolutely ridiculous reason the Tritons don't have Darkvision though

Yuan-Ti (DEX-build): STR 8 / DEX 14 / CON 14 / INT 9+1 / WIS 13 / CHA 14+2
The Yuan-Ti (CHA+2, INT+1) give us the powerful Magic Resistance buff to all of our saving throws against magic. They also round up INT 10, add absolute Poison immunity, grant us Darkvision (yay!), and add a few spells (_Poison Spray_, _Animal Friendship_ on snakes, _Suggestion_) based on CHA - which makes Suggestion a very nice & welcome addition to our out-of-combat skill set!

Kalashtar (DEX-build): STR 8 / DEX 14 / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 12+2 / CHA 15+1
The Kalashtar (WIS+2, CHA+1) grant us advantage on all of our WIS saves, which is super sweet & not even limited to magic. They also grant resistance to Psychic damage, which strongly mitigates our low INT saves, as INT-save-spells always deal Psychic damage. The immunity to dream is pretty useless, but they have one of the strongest Telepathy abilities next to an Elder Brain: Two-way telepathy established with one creature via a simple action, smashing all language-barriers to pieces, at an incredible 10ft per level range (i.e. longer than _Familiar_ communication past level 10)  and unlimited creature one-way communication at this range! It's limited to sight, but still an extremely powerful addition to our social skill set and making us the perfect party face.



Now there's a variant for resistance against every damage type to add to our innate resistance/immunity against Lightning & Thunder, except weapons (Pierce/Slash/Bludge), Acid & Force damage:Fire: Levistus Tiefling (can add Cold & Poison resistance with Infernal Constitution feat)Cold: TritonPoison: Yuan-TiRadiant: AasimarNecrotic: AasimarPsychic: Kalashtar
That makes it very versatile build, suitable for any campaign.

----------


## Orc_Lord

> It's worth mentioning EK will never be as broken as Nuclear Wizard. Like, never. Wizard is the most broken class in the game bar none


I don't disagree, however the premise of the nuclear wizard, aka adding +INT per magic missile has been blocked by the errata, it's now added once. Having said that, yes wizards are strong, no doubt.

----------


## AgenderArcee

Those EK builds sound very cool, I especially like the unexpected Death Domain idea. This character's arcane study could only take them so far, and, frustrated by the limits imposed on them, they turn to the seductive lure of the Dark Side.....




> I don't disagree, however the premise of the nuclear wizard, aka adding +INT per magic missile has been blocked by the errata, it's now added once. Having said that, yes wizard's are strong, no doubt.


Oh really? What errata was that? I thought the trick behind Nuclear Wizard was that you make the same damage roll for all beams of Magic Missile, and therefore the Int is added to all of them.

----------


## bendking

> I have three other variants to add  Kalashtar (Eberron), Triton & Yuan-Ti (Volo). They're weaker than Variant Human because of the delay in feats/ASIs ofc, but might be useful anyway. They all add one resistance type and round out our stats:


I added these to the post, thanks :)

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## Orc_Lord

> Oh really? What errata was that? I thought the trick behind Nuclear Wizard was that you make the same damage roll for all beams of Magic Missile, and therefore the Int is added to all of them.


Not sure on the date, but the latest errata under Wizard, Empowered evocation says:



> Empowered Evocation (p. 117). The damage roll has been changed to one damage roll.


See here: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=h...FPH-Errata.pdf

----------


## AgenderArcee

> Not sure on the date, but the latest errata under Wizard, Empowered evocation says:
> 
> 
> See here: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=h...FPH-Errata.pdf


That's the horrid brilliance of Nuclear Wizard, only one damage roll is made with Magic Missile. This is in LudicSavant's post on the topic here.

Though the really funny thing about Nuclear Wizard is that its whole deal is completely canceled out if an enemy has a Brooch of Shielding.

----------


## Datafib

> Not sure on the date, but the latest errata under Wizard, Empowered evocation says:
> 
> 
> See here:


It's the end of The Nuclear Magic Missale Wizard/Fighter/Hexblade Warlock

----------


## Orc_Lord

> That's the horrid brilliance of Nuclear Wizard, only one damage roll is made with Magic Missile. This is in LudicSavant's post on the topic here.


I have no interest in rules lawyering. I mostly DM, as a DM I believe MM gets +INT once, no matter how you want to interpret the wording. While we are on the subject, I feel the same about Sorlocks having "8 short rests" and casters with the spell "healing spirit".

Essentially it comes down to this. Is a single players fun impairing all other players fun by making them obsolete, uncomfortable (ooc), or feel threatened (ooc)? If the answer is yes, then I take a look and make a determination. 

Rules wise I try to be as RAW as possible, however, I also recognize that the whole point of role-playing is my players having fun. If I decided to play a D&D God Game, then I would assemble a Nuclear Wizard, Sorlock, Druid and some Barbarian/Fighter BM super team and they could go to town.

I guess what I am trying to say is it comes down to balance. Not everyone has to do the same amount of damage, or be just as useful in every situation, however when one player can single handledly overshoot everyone else it becomes a problem for the rest of the players, which becomes a problem for me to adjudicate.

...this is all an IMHO. My fun does not have to be your fun. But my table, is my table.

----------


## Evaar

> I have no interest in rules lawyering. I mostly DM, as a DM I believe MM gets +INT once, no matter how you want to interpret the wording.


That's all fine, and you're probably justified in house-ruling the Nuclear Wizard out of existence. But that's houserule, not errata. RAW, it's one roll so it works.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...02859609251840

----------


## Datafib

Mike Meals

"empowered evocation applies only once per target"




Also, that rule mentioned is about AOE like fireball, not targeting spell like Magic Missales. Each dart, each roll.

----------


## AgenderArcee

That's legit! I agree that as a DM I would probably rule like that if the player was overshadowing the rest of the party.

----------


## Evaar

Alright, let's back up. 

Magic Missile being one damage roll for all darts wasn't in question until someone said there was an errata that changed it. The errata was posted and it, in fact, does not change anything about how Magic Missile works. Then the individual made a post about how they run things at their table, which isn't really relevant, so I pointed out that it wasn't relevant and that the rule about Magic Missile being one damage roll stands.

Now people are saying Crawford's clarification of RAW doesn't apply to Magic Missile, even though he is specifically addressing Magic Missile, because the rule he cites mentions Fireball and Flame Strike.

So here's the rule:



> If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spell's damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.


Note how it doesn't say "it deals damage in an area." It says "deals damage to more than one target at the same time." Magic Missile explicitly meets that definition, as the spell states "The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several." The rule gives two example spells, but just because you can point out ways those spells are different from Magic Missile doesn't change the rule - similarly, the rule also doesn't only apply to spells that deal fire damage, even though both of the example spells deal fire damage.

So intuitively you might think it shouldn't be that way, and you don't want to rule it that way. You might even say there's some ambiguity, because Nuclear Wizard focuses all the missiles on one target so technically it's not striking more than one target, so in that specific scenario it doesn't work, even though Crawford has explicitly said it does. That's fine, it's your game, your table. But in threads like this one, it's really only relevant to discuss RAW and, where RAW is ambiguous, to go for the most authoritative ruling we can get. Because it's kind of impossible and pointless to make and share builds assuming a bunch of house rules. Unless you're the Sorcerer King, I suppose.

By RAW, Nuclear Wizard works.

----------


## da newt

Did LudicSavant ever post a full write-up of the SoulKnife build?

----------


## AgenderArcee

I thought it'd be fun to build Iron Man as a full Artificer. Magic items used are only those he'd be able to infuse himself, and obviously they're hoarded pretty selfishly, but then Tony Stark never seems to share his suits with Hawkeye or Black Widow or anyone else who could use them, lol.

Building Iron Man


(Source)

Variant Human Artificer (Artillerist) 20
Starting feat: Heavily Armored (+1 Str)
Vhuman stat increases: +1 Int, +1 Cha
Starting stats: 15/8/10/16/8/16
ASIs: Int 18, Int 20, Spell Sniper (Eldritch Blast), Cha 18, Cha 20

Skill proficiencies: Athletics, Persuasion (custom variant Noble background), and two of Arcana, Perception and Investigation.

Tony Stark is an ordinary if fairly buff man who's often not in the best of health, and often demonstrates poor judgment, so 10 Con and 8 Wis while pumping up Int and Cha seemed fitting. In addition to representing his playboy charm and incredible willpower, eventually getting Cha to max will also help mechanically since Eldritch Blast, taken from the Warlock spell list with Spell Sniper to increase his repulsor capabilities, uses Cha for attack rolls. As an Artillerist, he would hold his Arcane Firearm with one hand while holding the Tiny Eldritch Cannon in the other. Both could be reflavored as gloves/gauntlets, and at level 15 he could take the Wand Sheath Infusion (since after Level 14 the Artificer can ignore racial requirements for magic items) and wear an Eldritch Cannon on each hand, while keeping the Arcane Firearm in the Wand Sheath. The default use of the Eldritch Cannons would be to fire repulsor Force Ballistas as a bonus action, but one could instead be given the Flamethrower or Protector type, depending on encounter expectations.

Cantrips: Mending, Guidance, Fire Bolt, Shocking Grasp, Eldritch Blast (Spell Sniper)

Arcane Infusions:
Enhanced Arcane Focus (Attunement Slot 1)Enhanced Defense (Plate armor)Replicate Magic Item:
Goggles of Night
Bag of Holding
Sending Stones
Wand of Magic Detection
Winged Boots (Attunement Slot 2)
Dimensional Shackles
Amulet of Health (Attunement Slot 3)
Wand Sheath (Attunement Slot 4) 
Cloak of Protection (Attunement Slot 5)
Ring of Protection (Attunement Slot 6)
Infusions can vary, of course, and Belt of Hill Giant Strength can be switched in for one of the Attunement Slots depending on preference. I tried to make it work but the rest seemed more useful, and 15 Strength isn't bad at all. If you really want his Strength to come from an item, you can drop the Cloak or Ring (probably the Cloak, as cool as medieval Iron Man with a cape sounds), or the Wand Sheath if the DM rules that you can mount an Eldritch Cannon on your wrist instead. Depending on party composition, you may want to expend at least a couple of the other Infusions on your teammates - Dimensional Shackles in particular was kind of just put in to fill space lol.

I was going to have the Spell-Storing Item be Shield before realizing that's on the _Artillerist_ spell list, not the _Artificer_ spell list. No particular remaining option seems very thematic, so just do whatever - I'd recommend Cure Wounds.

With these items, the character would have 24 AC: 20 from +2 Plate, 1 from Cloak of Protection, 1 from Ring of Protection, and 2 from continuous half-cover due to the Artillerist's level 15 Fortified Position feature. That's in addition to being able to cast Shield for a total of 29 AC, along with 183 HP (taking the average) at Level 20, creating a suitably durable Iron Man. Between Soul of Artifice and Ring of Protection, he would have +8 to all saving throws. His base flying speed is limited to 30 feet, but Expeditious Retreat can be used for a speed boost when needed. Goggles of Night and Wand of Magic Detection serve as advanced sensors, while Sending Stones can be used for arcane radio communication.

EDIT: Ive been informed that the Bracers of Defense wont work while wearing armor! That leaves an Attunement slot open. My personal picks would either be the Belt of Hill Giant Strength, Cloak of Protection (who says medieval Iron Man cant have a cape?) or Helm of Telepathy.

Standard resource-less repulsor attack would use an action to fire four Eldritch Blasts (+13 to hit, 1d10 force damage each), then use a bonus action to fire two Force Ballistas (+11 to hit, 3d8 force damage each). However, with the full Artificer/Artillerist spell list at his disposal, he has a huge array of blasting and utility options at his disposal.

This character is fully playable from levels 1-20, though you can't fly until level 9-10 (Fly spell at level 9, Winged Boots at level 10) and will rely on Fire Bolt as your go-to blasting cantrip until you get access to Eldritch Blast (depending on when you take Spell Sniper; incidentally, Magic Initiate: Warlock is also a solid option for Hex once a day and an extra cantrip, but feels less thematically fitting - Iron Man doesn't make deals to acquire his technology, he makes it himself).

I think this would be a lot of fun to play, whether you're actually roleplaying as a magical Tony Stark or just want your character to be able to fight like him.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## MeeposFire

Unless you are making extensive use of an on hit extra damage effect (like hex) or have 2 levels of warlock for agonizing blast I do not see it being worth putting all that work into grabbing eldritch blast and increasing your cha to use it.  In addition eldritch blast is not an artificer spell so there are things that will not boost it but will boost firebolt.

----------


## Theaitetos

Oh, I love this Tony Stark!  :Small Big Grin: 

It's build with flavor > optimum in mind, so one could tinker around to make it stronger, but it's already quite strong. The only flavor I would add: Take the Homunculus as one of the infusions, as the mechanical heart and a helpful Jarvis really make it better!

----------


## AgenderArcee

Oh yes, its definitely built more for flavor than max damage, or else you would probably at least take MI: Warlock for Hex. Two levels of Warlock for Agonizing Blast and multiple uses of Hex would definitely be a huge damage boost, however it is worth noting that the trade-off is losing +6 to all saving throws, which is a very good defensive buff, as well as the ability to avoid unconsciousness by sacrificing an unimportant item like your Goggles of Night. An extra 4d6+20 damage (assuming all hit) is probably worth it, though, depending on your outlook, so if your version of DnD Iron Man is okay making pacts and casting curses, its a great alternative way to go!

----------


## Evaar

> Did LudicSavant ever post a full write-up of the SoulKnife build?


Not quite matching the format of the above, but if you scroll up on page 12 of this thread you can see Orc Lord created a bit of a compendium for all the EK stuff Ludic has written.

The most expansive post in that collection is this one: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...3&postcount=23

----------


## Evaar

> Not quite matching the format of the above, but if you scroll up on page 12 of this thread you can see Orc Lord created a bit of a compendium for all the EK stuff Ludic has written.
> 
> The most expansive post in that collection is this one: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...3&postcount=23


Actually piggybacking on Ludic's post, I'm wondering about a Feral Tiefling for this build.

You get the +2 dex and +1 int. You lose access to Elven Accuracy, which is a bummer, but you gain Fire Resistance and some other interesting feat options. This almost certainly isn't optimal, but you can get starting scores of 17 dex, 15 con, 13 intelligence, then pick up Resilient Dexterity, Infernal Constitution, and Flames of Phlegethos to even those scores out and grab a bunch of features. No two ways around it, that's a lot of feats and means it'll take quite a while for the character's power to cap out. But you get to do cool stuff like Greenflame Blade giving you a fire aura, resist fire/cold/poison damage, and proficiency on your dex saves to go with your sky high score. You're still going to want to grab War Caster and another +2 Dex, so you pick the order, you'll always wish you were closer to the next one.

Ultimately more of a defensive build, very likely less optimal, but still quite effective at all levels and you really look forward to each ASI on the journey as you pick up neat toys that most builds don't have room for.

----------


## Justin Sane

I've been tinkering with a Scout/Fey Wanderer build:

*The Feywarden*
Note: this build involves getting lots of different instances of skill proficiency from multiples sources. If starting at level 1, check with your DM what happens if a sub-class gives you proficiency with one your background skills.



*Strengths & Weaknesses*
+ flexible fighting style, can use archery, sword & board, or dual wield depending on situation
+ 9 different skill proficiencies (before race/background), Expertise in 5 of them
- uses 2 different UA (Subclasses part 3, and Class Feature Variants), plus XGtE
- takes a while (level 6) to come online, even more (level 10) to really shine

*The Basics*
Race: anything with a Dex/Wis boost. Wood Elf is the default, but Mark of Handling Human or Variant Human also work.
Classes: Scout Rogue 3 / Fey Wanderer Ranger 3 is the core for this build. You want Ranger 5 for Extra Attack, and you might want Rogue 4 eventually for the ASI, but the Fey Wanderer features are actually pretty good, so make sure you can live with delaying them for a bit.
Starting Stats: Dex > Wis > Con > everything else. I personally wouldn't dump any stat for this build - YMMV.
ASIs: Max Dex. Anything else is gravy.

*The Skills*
The Feywarden gets an incredible array of skills. All of this is YMMV, as it really doesn't break anything if you have different preferences - but since you're picking up new skills over a long period of time, it's worth it to map them out before you begin.
Starting Rogue, take Investigation, Insight, Perception, and Stealth - with Expertise on those last two. Scout adds proficiency and Expertise on Nature and Survival. With your 1st Ranger level, take Athletics, and pick Canny for your Deft Explorer (replacing Favored Terrain) benefit, adding proficiency and Expertise to Animal Handling. Fey Wanderer, finally, will get you Persuasion or Deception (or Performance, if you care about that).
Remember, at Fey Wanderer 7, Blessings of the Courts will let you add your Wisdom Modifier to your Charisma checks - which means, with the right background choice, you'll be no slouch in the social arenas.

*The Damage*
Up to level 3, you're a Rogue. Pick up a pair of shortswords (and keep a few daggers on you) and a bow, use whatever's more appropriate for the situation you're in. Your damage should be something like 3d6+Dex, possibly adding another 1d6 if dual wielding.
At level 4, the 1st Ranger level kicks in. With it comes medium armor and shield proficiency, which should shore up your AC by a couple of points, but more importantly, comes Hunter's Mark, courtesy of Favored Foe (replacement for Favored Enemy). This makes the extra attack from dual wielding a much better option. 
At Ranger 2 (level 5) you get to pick your Fighting Style. Archery, Dueling, Defense, and Two-Weapon Fighting are all valid choices, but don't discount Druidic Warrior - getting 2 Druid cantrips may be worth more, from an RP perspective, than a slight numbers boost. Again - YMMV.
At Fey Wanderer 3 (level 6), Dreadful Strikes is another damage bump, especially considering it works with Two-Weapon Fighting. By now, your damage should be around 5d6+Dex, with an extra 2d6 if dual wielding, which isn't that bad. Moving Hunter's Mark might be your biggest hassle.

*Playstyle*
The Feywarden is an outdoorsman extraordinaire. The Ranger side of the build gives some really useful magic tricks (in most quasi-medieval settings, there's animals everywhere - rats, cats, pigeons, horses, squirrels...), and the Rogue side can easily cover for those long days where you spent all your slots on Goodberries.
Versatility is an hallmark of this build. You'll have so many different tools available, it'll be hard to find situations in which you cannot contribute to your party's success.



Thoughts?

----------


## 1Pirate

Would a different conclave work? This build may not see much play as UA typically changes and DMs often don't allow it.

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## Justin Sane

> Would a different conclave work? This build may not see much play as UA typically changes and DMs often don't allow it.


I think so - the main sinergy is between Scout and the Ranger's ACFs, so it should work regardless of Conclave.

Heck, if you like Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain as-is, the ACFs aren't even needed.

----------


## Citadel97501

Hey I was wondering if anyone has worked out a build on this threat that takes advantage of their familiars?  I was thinking that the Variant Class Features UA would allow some really nasty tricks, specifically Investment of the Chain Master?  I am still sure Find Steed & Find Greater Steed is going to be a bit better throughout your levels but this is still interesting.  

*Just off the top of my head*
For example an Order Cleric 6/Chain Warlock 2 with a good Spell DC of 16?  This would let it make 2 attacks at the improved DC for multiple poison attacks.  
-Imp's poison being boosted up to DC 16+ for an extra 3d6 poison damage.
-Sprite: Poison status and/or Knockout at dc 16+.
-Pseudodragon: Poison status and/or Knockout at DC 16+.

Gnome Wizard 17/Warlock 3
-(Questionable): True Polymorph to change it into a rock then into a young silver dragon now its breath weapon uses my Spell DC of 19?  I can also ride the medium size wyrmling :)

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## Amechra

> Hey I was wondering if anyone has worked out a build on this threat that takes advantage of their familiars?  I was thinking that the Variant Class Features UA would allow some really nasty tricks, specifically Investment of the Chain Master?  I am still sure Find Steed & Find Greater Steed is going to be a bit better throughout your levels but this is still interesting.  
> 
> *Just off the top of my head*
> For example an Order Cleric 6/Chain Warlock 2 with a good Spell DC of 16?  This would let it make 2 attacks at the improved DC for multiple poison attacks.  
> -Imp's poison being boosted up to DC 16+ for an extra 3d6 poison damage.
> -Sprite: Poison status and/or Knockout at dc 16+.
> -Pseudodragon: Poison status and/or Knockout at DC 16+.


Sadly, you run into an action limit - Warlock familiars still can't take the Attack action themselves, and both of the "hey, guy, make an attack!" features take the target's reaction. You need to get to Chain Warlock 9 before your familiar can have two attacks, and then it takes up all of your actions. If you want a combat familiar, you'll want to grab Dragon's Breath as part of a Sorlock build, because then your little buddy can fly around and vomit elemental damage on enemies.

The real issue is that familiars die from a single solid hit/AoE, and that there generally isn't an easy way to make them more durable.

----------


## Evaar

> For example an Order Cleric 6/Chain Warlock 2 with a good Spell DC of 16?  This would let it make 2 attacks at the improved DC for multiple poison attacks.


You don't become a Chain Warlock until 3.

----------


## Theaitetos

> Hey I was wondering if anyone has worked out a build on this threat that takes advantage of their familiars?


Well, the Sprite familiar's knockout is extremely powerful with the new invocation, especially since you can give your familiar a better bow to increase his attack ability. But in general it doesn't make any of the familiars overpowered, afaik, yet greatly increases the fun they bring: You can finally have an octopus familiar float/fly in the air.  :Small Smile: 

Other cool things:
Warlocks can _Hex_ their own familiars and then use Relentless Hex to teleport to them on a Bonus Action. Chainlocks can even make sure their familiar turns invisibility on/off immediately around the teleport by using the Ready action (since it takes no action to turn invisibility off); that way nobody sees your familiar, but you can still teleport anywhere within 30ft to creep everyone out.
Archdruids, i.e. Druids at level 20, have infinite Wildshapes and the new CFV allows them to use a Wildshape to immediately summon a familiar ("Wild Companion" feature), which means those druids can send familiar after familiar after familiar -- play god and send infinite frogs on your enemies, or be the cat lady you were always meant to be!  :Small Big Grin: 

There are some proposals to have a strong familiar (e.g. Imp) carry a shield in front of you to give you cover against attacks. And with _Enlarge/Reduce_ a halfling can easily be carried/ride their familiar. If you give your familiar a strength item (e.g. Gauntlet of Ogre Strength), your familiar can carry anyone and you can use _Dragon's Breath_ to really cut the Pseudo from the Pseudo-Dragon!  :Small Wink:

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## Zetakya

> Warlocks can _Hex_ their own familiars and then use Relentless Hex to teleport to them on a Bonus Action. Chainlocks can even make sure their familiar turns invisibility on/off immediately around the teleport by using the Ready action (since it takes no action to turn invisibility off); that way nobody sees your familiar, but you can still teleport anywhere within 30ft to creep everyone out.


But then your Hex is stuck on the Familiar until it dies, because you can't reposition the Hex effect unless the target dies.

Of course you could use Maddening Hex to turn the Familiar into a guided psychic damage bomb, but that puts your familiar out of the running until you've got a spare hour to resummon it.

----------


## Theaitetos

> But then your Hex is stuck on the Familiar until it dies, because you can't reposition the Hex effect unless the target dies.


And why would you want to? An invisible Imp familiar can fly 60ft (raven form) each round to any place you want within 30ft, and you can teleport there on a bonus action, which gives you incredible movement powers.

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## Citadel97501

Hello all, I am finally going to be sharing a full character build that I think will be a lot of fun, and is unique although it does use two minor things from the Class Feature Variant Unearthed Arcana, 1 of which is kind of required due to Sorcerer.  It is a tiny bit MAD but not overly so, and this can be alleviated through taking Hexblade 1 instead of Rogue...

*The Grease Trap*
Race: Anything but Variant Human is a bit quicker to get online.  
Class 1: Shadow or Sea (UA) Sorcerer 3+ (Sorcerer 4+ if not Variant Human)
Class 2: Fighter 1+ (your going to want 5 or 6 at the end)
Class 3: Rogue 1+
Strength 13+ / 20 Cha / 14 Dexterity / 8 to Wisdom or Intelligence
Feat/ASI: Grappler / +4 Cha (ASIs) / Spell Sniper - Thorn Whip (a bit more reliable than Lightning Lure and has better range due to feat.)

Cantrips: Booming Blade (BB), Green Flame Blade (GFB), Lightning Lure, your choice.
Spells: Mage Armor (dumped once you get fighter), Shield, Grease (UA adds to Sorcerer), Absorb Elements, Shadow Blade
Metamagic: Quickened, Twinned, (Heightened also works if you drop Twinned)
Fighting Style: Unarmed Fighting (Unearthed Arcana)
Expertise: Athletics, and your choice.  

The Core Trick: Permanent Proning an enemy.
Basically your core trick is to move up to melee range, quicken a Grease Spell with it affecting your ideal foe, then sacrifice one melee attack to Grapple him, then continue to stab with GFB or BB until he is dead, then cast Lighting Lure to drag another target into the Grease Trap.  

Shadow Blade Damage at 5th level: 2d8+1d8+attribute+1d6+1d4+1d4 = 23.5 with everything active.
Rapier Damage at 5th level: 19 with everything active.

Pros: Continuous Advantage on attacks, Enemy has continuous disadvantage due to permanently being prone, Armor equal to a 2 handed build, Decent Damage, Damage can scale either with more melee attacks or through cantrip scaling.

Cons: Limited range, Relies on Grease being added to the Sorcerer spell list, without the Unarmed Fighting style you lose about 5 damage per turn.  Sea Sorcerer is likely a much better sub class for sorcerer but getting 3 things out of UA is not likely.

----------


## Evaar

> The Grease Trap


Is it able to hit reliably leaving Dex at 14?

----------


## Citadel97501

> Is it able to hit reliably leaving Dex at 14?


I assume it should be OK with Advantage but it is a problem that MAD Builds suffer, +5 with advantage isn't too awful.  Any suggestions besides the way too common Hexblade dip?

----------


## Evaar

> I assume it should be OK with Advantage but it is a problem that MAD Builds suffer, +5 with advantage isn't too awful.  Any suggestions besides the way too common Hexblade dip?


BESIDES the way too common Hexblade dip? No. But I think it would be more valuable than the Rogue dip. What does the build get from the Rogue levels?

----------


## Citadel97501

> BESIDES the way too common Hexblade dip? No. But I think it would be more valuable than the Rogue dip. What does the build get from the Rogue levels?


Expertise for Athletics, & Sneak Attack for more damage.  

I can definitely see a College of Swords: Bard (Xanathar's Guide) although a Lore Bard is also tempting its just too much of a squishy caster to rely this much on melee.  Now if the College of Swords: Bard could get Unarmed Fighting as a fighting style that would tempt me to abandon the fighter entirely :)

----------


## Evaar

> Expertise for Athletics, & Sneak Attack for more damage.


Yeah, I get where you're coming from on that Hexblade dip being overused, but compare the extra sneak attack damage to a straight +3 to every attack and damage roll. It's overused for a reason.

The expertise in athletics is nice for grappling, though.

Although, thinking about it, you can't even use Hex Warrior with Shadowblade can you? Since you have to bind Hex Warrior to a weapon, you'd still be stuck using Dex when you summon that. Hrmmmmm. I need a math person to come in here and talk about how frequently this is going to be able to land attacks with reliable advantage. Maybe this is a build better suited to a Half Elf with Elven Accuracy?

----------


## bendking

> Yeah, I get where you're coming from on that Hexblade dip being overused, but compare the extra sneak attack damage to a straight +3 to every attack and damage roll. It's overused for a reason.
> 
> The expertise in athletics is nice for grappling, though.
> 
> Although, thinking about it, you can't even use Hex Warrior with Shadowblade can you? Since you have to bind Hex Warrior to a weapon, you'd still be stuck using Dex when you summon that. Hrmmmmm. I need a math person to come in here and talk about how frequently this is going to be able to land attacks with reliable advantage. Maybe this is a build better suited to a Half Elf with Elven Accuracy?


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...31142298573395
You can use this calculator, it's very comprehensive.

----------


## CheddarChampion

> The Core Trick: Permanent Proning an enemy.
> Basically your core trick is to move up to melee range, quicken a Grease Spell with it affecting your ideal foe, then sacrifice one melee attack to Grapple him, then continue to stab with GFB or BB until he is dead, then cast Lighting Lure to drag another target into the Grease Trap.


Both Shadow Blade and (Quickened) Grease use your concentration. And your bonus action when you cast them. You can still BB/GFB though.
BTW, why pick up grappler if you're going to attack a prone enemy?

----------


## Evaar

> Both Shadow Blade and (Quickened) Grease use your concentration. And your bonus action when you cast them. You can still BB/GFB though.
> BTW, why pick up grappler if you're going to attack a prone enemy?


Grease doesnt require Concentration. Common mistake. 

I think the point of the grapple is to force the enemy to stay prone.

----------


## CheddarChampion

> Grease doesnt require Concentration. Common mistake. 
> 
> I think the point of the grapple is to force the enemy to stay prone.


Well today I learned!

Grappling is to keep them prone, yeah, but the grappler _feat_ doesn't add anything right?
*Spoiler: Grappler doesn't add anything in this M.O.*
Show

Grappler: requires Str 13. Gives you advantage on attacks against targets you have grappled. Allows you to 'pin' a target with another successful grapple check against them causing you both to be restrained.
If you attack a prone target with a rapier/shadow blade you already have advantage, so the feat doesn't add anything in that situation. Pretty sure you don't want to pin there either. Or ever.

----------


## Evaar

> Well today I learned!
> 
> Grappling is to keep them prone, yeah, but the grappler _feat_ doesn't add anything right?
> *Spoiler: Grappler doesn't add anything in this M.O.*
> Show
> 
> Grappler: requires Str 13. Gives you advantage on attacks against targets you have grappled. Allows you to 'pin' a target with another successful grapple check against them causing you both to be restrained.
> If you attack a prone target with a rapier/shadow blade you already have advantage, so the feat doesn't add anything in that situation. Pretty sure you don't want to pin there either. Or ever.


Huh. Yeah. I just assumed Grappler makes you better at... Grappling.

So then I guess I would recommend dropping that feat, pick up Prodigy for Expertise in Athletics, drop the Rogue level, maybe get Hexblade instead so the build is less gimmicky (you don't want to be out of options if you can't grapple the target). Shadowblade can still be used for when you can prone and grapple the target and don't need to worry about your mediocre dex score.

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## AgenderArcee

Celestial Dragonforge Cleric, Master of the Searing Smite




*Forge Cleric 8 Celestial Warlock (Tome) 6 Draconic Sorcerer (Fire) 6*

*Race:* Anything with a +1 or higher to Cha, with the other ASI ideally being Con, Wis or Str (though this is ultimately not important to the build).

*ASIs:* Cha to 20, Elemental Adept, War Caster.

*Key Cantrips:* Green-Flame Blade, Shillelagh. Knows 16 cantrips by the end!

*Key Spell:* Searing Smite.

So, a while back I posted a fairly flawed build here based around the idea that you could add the +Cha to fire damage of a level 6+ Draconic Sorcerer to every strike with a weapon that had Elemental Weapon cast on it, while also using GFB to get another +Cha. Aside from getting my spell levels mixed up (I had the build as Sorcerer 14/Paladin 6 even though Elemental Weapon is only available to a Paladin at 9), it was pointed out that by RAW and RAI, this extra damage would only be applied once per casting of Elemental Weapon, not per hit. 

I've come up with what I think is an interesting new variation on this idea, a build that adds Cha to damage FOUR times per hit (technically five actually), and this time I'm like 95% sure it's completely legal. :P

The first change is that this uses both Elemental Affinity from Draconic Sorcerer and Radiant Soul from Celestial Warlock, which means that for any spell cast that rolls fire damage, the character will add their Cha modifier to damage twice for one roll against one target. We also use Pact of the Tome from Warlock to get a Cha-based Shillelagh, freeing up ASIs for War Caster and Elemental Adept. War Caster will help us cast spells while wielding a shield, and Elemental Adept is highly recommended due to the prevalence of fire resistance.

They key here is that while we're limited to one roll per spell, if we cast TWO spells with one attack, we double our extra damage. So, if we use our bonus action to cast Searing Smite, then activate its effect with the weapon attack made as part of Green-Flame Blade, we can add Cha to damage twice _per spell_, a total of 20 additional damage per hit, in addition to the Searing Smite damage and the GFB damage. As a level 8 Forge Cleric, we'll also add an additional 1d8 fire damage from Divine Strike. Base weapon attack and damage also use Cha due to Shillelagh. It's also worth noting that the character by level 20 has spell slots as high as 7th level, and Searing Smite does not have a spell slot level cap like Divine Smite, meaning its base damage can potentially be as high as 7d6 with the highest possible slot used.

At max Cha and using the 7th level slot, and including the riders from GFB and Searing Smite, this adds up to 8d8+30+8d6 damage, an average of 94 total damage divided between two targets! Probably a bit more since all 1s on fire damage dice (all except for the Divine Strike d8, so 14 of the 16 die rolls) are converted to 2s by Elemental Adept. 

This character will also benefit from high AC with heavy armor, a shield and an extra +2 from Blessing of the Forge and Soul of the Forge, a total of 22 AC with regular plate armor and no additional magic items. They will also have resistance to both fire and radiant damage. For ranged combat, they'll be able to use Agonizing Blast or Twinned Fire Bolt according to preference, either one doing 4d10+20 damage if all beams hit. Things get a little trickier against a fire-immune enemy, but you'll still be able to fall back on being an extremely heavily armored Sorlock who can also dish out +Cha Guiding Bolts! This build's main drawback is not being able to learn spells higher than 4th level, but the versatility of the combined Cleric, Sorcerer and Tomelock spell lists will make them no slouch for utility and healing even when they don't get a chance to hit people with a flaming stick!

Obviously this build doesn't fully come together until level 20, making it most ideally suited to a character created for that tier of play. However, the basic combo of Searing Smite, GFB and either Radiant Soul or Elemental Affinity is available by level 7 (Cleric 1, Warlock or Sorcerer 6 - probably Warlock first in order to get Shillelagh at level 4).

This build can also be adjusted to use a martial weapon instead of Shillelagh, taking Pact of the Blade instead of Pact of the Tome. One would need to spend all their ASIs boosting Strength and Charisma, so Variant Human is preferred to get Elemental Adept. It hurts to lose the cantrip opportunity attack from War Caster, but the ability to cast with one's hands full becomes less of an issue if one chooses to use a greatsword or maul instead of a shield. This version is therefore a little more restrictive, but allows for bigger weapon damage dice and, subjectively, can look a lot cooler than swinging around a big wooden stick. :P

----------


## Petrocorus

> Feat/ASI: Grappler / +4 Cha (ASIs) / Spell Sniper - Thorn Whip (a bit more reliable than Lightning Lure and has better range due to feat.)


Wouldn't Thorn Whip be keyed on wisdom?





> Expertise for Athletics, & Sneak Attack for more damage.


And that cost you to get 13+ in Dex, while Dex seems not very useful for anything else in this particular build. 
Without the Rogue level, you could focus on Strength. And you can get Expertise by replacing Grappler by Prodigy.

----------


## DevanAvalon

Looking back at the Hobgoblin Iron Wizard, I noticed it... kinda doesn't give any major suggestions for spells other than "Mage Armor is entirely optional, and you want Counterspell and... Abjuration spells in general." I'm kinda unsure what spells I want to pick up for it, since to me... well "standard God Wizard" things doesn't mean much. Can someone give me a hand?

----------


## Citadel97501

Are there any other non-fire spells that you could use with that Master of the Searing Smite build with the Elemental Spell meta magic added in Variant Class Features?  I would also like to see if this can be made effective at more varied levels such as having the key points active by level 8, or 10.  I do understand you will lose some effectiveness at those levels but having it playable at all levels is likely more important.  That being said great ideas there.

----------


## Hairfish

> Looking back at the Hobgoblin Iron Wizard, I noticed it... kinda doesn't give any major suggestions for spells other than "Mage Armor is entirely optional, and you want Counterspell and... Abjuration spells in general." I'm kinda unsure what spells I want to pick up for it, since to me... well "standard God Wizard" things doesn't mean much. Can someone give me a hand?


"God Wizard" is generally a reference to the spell selection and use ideas in this guide, available in the  stickied "class guides" thread:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...P0oH7HE_v67QY/

----------


## LudicSavant

> Looking back at the Hobgoblin Iron Wizard, I noticed it... kinda doesn't give any major suggestions for spells other than "Mage Armor is entirely optional, and you want Counterspell and... Abjuration spells in general." I'm kinda unsure what spells I want to pick up for it, since to me... well "standard God Wizard" things doesn't mean much. Can someone give me a hand?


What level are you?

----------


## Klorox

> Looking back at the Hobgoblin Iron Wizard, I noticed it... kinda doesn't give any major suggestions for spells other than "Mage Armor is entirely optional, and you want Counterspell and... Abjuration spells in general." I'm kinda unsure what spells I want to pick up for it, since to me... well "standard God Wizard" things doesn't mean much. Can someone give me a hand?


Google Treantmonks guide god wizard

----------


## DevanAvalon

> What level are you?


I would be starting at level 3 for now (so like, 8 level 1 spells and 2 level 2 spells to start).

----------


## Skylivedk

> I would be starting at level 3 for now (so like, 8 level 1 spells and 2 level 2 spells to start).


I'm posting a bit more suggestions than you have slots for. For God Wizard spells, it's extra important that you look at how to make your party better: you set up haymakers, control the flow of battle and manipulate the terrain and how the fight is win to guarantee victory at the smallest cost possible.

Lvl 1
- Grease (note: it's the lack of concentration that I love about this spell - also I have been in melee heavy parties)
- Tasha's Hideous Laughter
- Silent Image
- Find familiar
- Fog cloud


Maybes/not control, but good
- Shield
- Detect magic 
- Identify
- Absorb Elements (better later, but if you don't count on getting spells outside of leveling, you'd rather pick it up early)
- Cause Fear (worse effect than Tasha's, but better upcast)
- Sleep (I personally like it, also for capturing foes, but it's a contested choice)
- Thunderwave

Lvl 2
- Web
- Ray of enfeeblement (like absorb elements; actually better later due to the saving throw being end of turn, it works for 1 round on legendary resistance mobs)
- Pyrotechnics
- Levitate
- Enlarge/reduce (also great for removing obstacles)
- Darkness
- Phantasmal force

Maybes
- Suggestion (DM dependent)
- Hold person (I've not picked it as a player due to the small amount of humanoids we were facing... If you do face humanoids and your party can leverage critical hits, it's a lot better)
- Cloud of daggers (if you have people who can force movement/grapple)
- Rope trick
- Invisibility
- Dust devil (if you play with a lot of environmental hazards and ledges)

----------


## Benny89

Zealot of Death. 

You are primal warrior of a God of Death. Your sole purpose is to seek new battles and slay more souls. You even made a pact with an dark entity that promised you a powerful reward.. for your ongoing service. Now both powers that you serve want you to spread their will... into the battle and war. You lead those who seek blood and glory. In the name of death.



*1. Build*

Class: 1 Hexblade/12 Zealot Barbarian 
Race: Fallen Aasimar
Stats: 16 STR, 14 DEX, 14 CON, 14 CHA.
Feats (If Strength Magic Item available): Polearm Master at level 5, Shield Master, Inspiring Leader 
Feats (if not Streangth Magic Item Available): Polearm Master, +2 Strength, Inspiring Leader

It's more a thematic build than min-maxed superman, but it's has effective DPR and "Nova fight" and he is great duelist with good AC, resistance and extra 15 (30 with Rage) temporary HP. He also gets WIS and CHA save proficiency to have more protection vs Charm/Mind spells that can end Rage too early and if you can get Strength boosting item - the Shield Master combined with advantage on DEX save throws will allow him to shrug off many AOE damage effects/spells. He also have resistance to Priercing, Blunt, Slashing, Necrotic and Radiant damage.

He can Curse his enemy 1/short rest, giving him expanded crit-range + proficiency damage bonus to one taget. He can unleash his unholy herritage 1/day and add Necrotic damage equal to his level to one strike per turn, which adds to his Zealot alpha strike every turn and Hexblade bonus damage. This also gives you fly ability so you can engage flying enemies if needed (something most melee classes struggle against) and decent AOE Fear with DC of 15 targeting Charisma save throw. Your enemies know to fear you in battle!

You also have decent AC of minimum 19 (Half-Plate + Shield), 3 attacks per turn and even access to decent range spell cantrip (Eldricht Blast) as backup vs enemies you can't reach or fly to.

Warrior of the Gods- if you have cleric/Divine Soul/Paladin in your party - even if you die, you just go back. Death never ends.

One you get to level 1/14 you also can't die as long as your Rage lasts.

*2. Role:*

Your job is to stick to main target in every fight, Curse and challange them into glorious duel to the death! No mercy allowed! When your team fights especially hard encounter or the main boss of adventuring day: Unleash your Necrotic enegry, rip and tear.

You also have effective 124 x 2 HP vs most attacks. So 248 HP, 30 of which is Temporary. With Shield Master + Danger Sense you can also dodge most of AOE damage spells/effects, avoiding big damage spikes.

You are also quite good leader with Proficiency in Deception and Intimidiation skill + Inspiring Leader feat.

*3. Damage:*

I assume here you at least got yourself +1 spear/quarterstaff by level 13. If you can get Staff of Power - it gets even better.

His DPR at level 13 vs AC 17 wiht spear + 1 looks like this:

With Curse + Rage on target only using Reckless Attack:  Normal: 43 DPR, Advantage (Reckless Attack):	55 DPR.

With Necrotic Shroud unleashed you deal also additional +13 alpha necrotic damage for 1 minute.

Combined with Curse your DPR vs single target is: Normal: 57 DPR, Reckless Attack: 69 DPR. 

A very solid DPR for a weapon + shield build. 

*If you can get your hands on Staff of Power* (which you can use thanks to Warlock dip) - your damage can skyrocket if you Nova using extra 1d6 force damage and +1 extra damage from Staff of power. 

Your DPR with Curse + Necrotic Shroud using Staff of Power extra 1d6 per attack would be: Normal: 69, Reckless: 85 DPR	

*4. Progression		*

Start with Hexblade for WIS proficiency and CHA proficiency. There are some nasty spells that can end your rage and therefore - not allowing later to keep Rage Beyond Death ongoing. 

I would go to at least 1/16 to get Rage Beyond Death and Persistent Rage and get that +4 damage from Rage.  

After that I would multiclass to Fighter Battlemaster to get Dueling + Action Surge or Revised Ranger: Hunter to get Dueling + Giant Killer or Colossus Slayer. And FF - humanoids or monstrosities for another +2 damage.

----------


## Klorox

@Benny89, I like it! Creative and cool!

----------


## AgenderArcee

> Are there any other non-fire spells that you could use with that Master of the Searing Smite build with the Elemental Spell meta magic added in Variant Class Features?  I would also like to see if this can be made effective at more varied levels such as having the key points active by level 8, or 10.  I do understand you will lose some effectiveness at those levels but having it playable at all levels is likely more important.  That being said great ideas there.


Good question, and thanks! One thing that occurs to me is you could use Elemental Spell on Booming Blade to have an option besides GFB. Also as I said in the post, you should have the key ingredients by level 7, Forge Cleric 1/Celestial Warlock 6 (or potentially Cleric 1/Draconic Sorcerer 6 if you're going with a non-Shillelagh build). You can get all your Sorlock levels by 13 - really Forge Cleric's most important contributions are heavy armor and Searing Smite, both of which you conveniently get at level 1. Cleric 2-8 just gets you more slots and spells, the AC bump, fire resistance, and finally Divine Strike, which is not an especially exciting capstone but the ASI will be welcome. All nice things, but not as fundamental as that +Chax4 damage.

----------


## Benny89

> @Benny89, I like it! Creative and cool!


Thanks, I had that idea for a while but I still didn't have a chance to play. But I really want to play it finally!

----------


## Petrocorus

It's not a full build and it's certainly not properly optimised, but i work on something as an experiment of thought.
I actually used it for an NPC.

The _Know-it-all Guy_ who is proficient with every skill and has 8 expertises.

Level
Class/Feature
Skills
Expertises

0
Vuman
1


0
Skilled Feat
3


0
Background
2


1
Rogue 1
4
2

2
Rogue 2



3
Scout 3
2
2

4
Bard 1
1


5
Bard 2



6
Lore Bard 3
3
2

7
Knowledge Cleric 1
2
2






Total

18
8




Obviously, if you want to try this in-game, there are changes to be made.
First, you don't really care about Medicine and Performance, and you have Jack-of-all-Trades anyway, so Prodigy might be better than Skilled.
You also don't get ASI and your Sneak Attack and Spell progression is lame.

But i just wanted to try to get those 18 proficiencies.

----------


## Neoh

> Zealot of Death. 
> 
> You are primal warrior of a God of Death. Your sole purpose is to seek new battles and slay more souls. You even made a pact with an dark entity that promised you a powerful reward.. for your ongoing service. Now both powers that you serve want you to spread their will... into the battle and war. You lead those who seek blood and glory. In the name of death.
> 
> 
> 
> *1. Build*
> 
> Class: 1 Hexblade/12 Zealot Barbarian 
> ...



Just letting you know that Fallen Aasimar can't fly. Only Protector Aasimar get a flight speed.

----------


## Benny89

> Just letting you know that Fallen Aasimar can't fly. Only Protector Aasimar get a flight speed.


Ah, my bad. I thought if you grow wings you can fly :). Well, he still have Eldricht Blast for flying enemies + Curse combo + Hex.

----------


## Quietus

> Wouldn't Thorn Whip be keyed on wisdom?





> Indeed it would. Any spells learned via feats are keyed on the ability relevant to the class whose spell list the spells were chosen from (in this case Wisdom because Thorn Whip is by default a Druid spell). Even though those feats have no minimum requisite for any ability scores. So, if you had Wisdom 8 and chose Thorn Whip, you'd make any rolls with Thorn Whip with a -1 modifier (if a modifier is applied).


Not in this build.  Note that none of the classes they're taking - sorcerer, warlock, cleric - have Thorn Whip on their list.  That means that it's probably coming from the Pact of the Tome boon on Warlock.  Using that to pick up Shillelagh and Thorn Whip means both spells are keyed off Charisma instead.

@AgenderArcee - Aside from it wanting a full 20 levels, I see no issues with this build.  Very neat!  I can't decide how I would want to level it up, personally - there's a lot you want from each class here early on, but taking all those low level dips would push back your actual damage ability.  Concentration isn't so important because you're only going to bother with it until you hit someone, and if you cast then miss, you can just recast as a bonus action.

Interesting interactions I can see : 

Thorn Whip - counts as a melee attack, and can trigger Searing Smite damage.   Nevermind, Thorn Whip is a melee spell attack, and Searing Smite wants a melee weapon attack.
Twin spell.  The strict RAW appears to simply modify the targeting of the original spell.  If a DM rules otherwise, this means you could twin Firebolt and add double Cha to both bolts.  This would actually allow it to keep up with Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast on it - a couple levels late, generally, but still a neat interaction.

May I ask, aside from the level 20 1d8 bump in fire damage, why are you leaning so hard into Forge cleric?  Why not Paladin, to pick up Searing Smite that way, and be able to do regular Smites on top of that?  Even two levels of Paladin would allow you to lean more into your other classes, if you so chose - you could go 2 Paladin/6 Draconic Sorcerer/6 Celestial Warlock, and then put your remaining 6 levels into more Sorcerer or Warlock to taste.

----------


## Corran

(work in progress)

*Hexblade 9/ Assassin 3*
(Archer build, pact of the blade)
Reserved for when it's finished.

----------


## Citadel97501

> Do note that the person in question (Citadel97501) suggested taking Thorn Whip via Spell Sniper. It's a feat, and spells learned via feats follow the rules I won't bother repeating again. If it was intended as being taken via class feature, I stand corrected, but the way I (and I assume Petrocorus as well) read it, Citadel97501 did not suggest it that way.


I was suggesting the spell sniper feat mainly for the range boost, The pact of the tome is a bit better for this spot.  Although it should be noted that Artificer is another place it can come from.

----------


## Petrocorus

> I was suggesting the spell sniper feat mainly for the range boost, The pact of the tome is a bit better for this spot.  Although it should be noted that Artificer is another place it can come from.


If you acquire Thorn Whip through Spell Sniper (or Magic Initiate), it will be keyed on Wisdom. 
Right now, i don't remember a feat or a racial feature in official material that would allow it to be keyed on another ability. There may be some in the Plane Shifts or UA.

If you acquire it through Pact of the Tome, it will be keyed on Charisma.
If you acquire it through Artificer, it will be keyed on Intelligence.
I don't know if there are other ways to acquire it.

Note that the version of the build you posted did not have any level of Warlock or Artificer. If we want the built to be base on Charisma, it would be better to MC to Warlock or even to replace Sorcerer with Warlock and ask the DM for Grease, since Grease for Sorcerer is already DM-dependant.

----------


## Citadel97501

Your correct, I hadn't looked at the build in a while I did make an error on the attribute it is keyed to.

----------


## AgenderArcee

> @AgenderArcee - Aside from it wanting a full 20 levels, I see no issues with this build.  Very neat!  I can't decide how I would want to level it up, personally - there's a lot you want from each class here early on, but taking all those low level dips would push back your actual damage ability.  Concentration isn't so important because you're only going to bother with it until you hit someone, and if you cast then miss, you can just recast as a bonus action.
> 
> Interesting interactions I can see : 
> 
> Thorn Whip - counts as a melee attack, and can trigger Searing Smite damage.   Nevermind, Thorn Whip is a melee spell attack, and Searing Smite wants a melee weapon attack.
> Twin spell.  The strict RAW appears to simply modify the targeting of the original spell.  If a DM rules otherwise, this means you could twin Firebolt and add double Cha to both bolts.  This would actually allow it to keep up with Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast on it - a couple levels late, generally, but still a neat interaction.
> 
> May I ask, aside from the level 20 1d8 bump in fire damage, why are you leaning so hard into Forge cleric?  Why not Paladin, to pick up Searing Smite that way, and be able to do regular Smites on top of that?  Even two levels of Paladin would allow you to lean more into your other classes, if you so chose - you could go 2 Paladin/6 Draconic Sorcerer/6 Celestial Warlock, and then put your remaining 6 levels into more Sorcerer or Warlock to taste.


If you'll look closely I do actually mention Twinned Firebolt in the post!

I suppose Forge Cleric is somewhat of a relic of the original goal to use Elemental Weapon, since it would get that spell at level 5 instead of level 9, but the decision to use Searing Smite makes that somewhat obsolete. I think aside from the thematic synergy of Divine Strike, the main appeal is full caster slots, along with the extra AC and fire resistance (without having to spend a sorcery point). However, Paladin is definitely a viable alternative, and comes with the benefits of a Fighting Style, Channel Divinity and Auras, if you take it as far as level 6-7. And Divine Smite is definitely a useful alternative to have against fire-immune enemies, and as you say could even be stacked for higher (if costlier) nova potential. And you could dump Wis as well, which is good for a Str-using build... definitely a good option!

----------


## LudicSavant

> I would be starting at level 3 for now (so like, 8 level 1 spells and 2 level 2 spells to start).






> I'm posting a bit more suggestions than you have slots for. For God Wizard spells, it's extra important that you look at how to make your party better: you set up haymakers, control the flow of battle and manipulate the terrain and how the fight is win to guarantee victory at the smallest cost possible.
> 
> Lvl 1
> - Grease (note: it's the lack of concentration that I love about this spell - also I have been in melee heavy parties)
> - Tasha's Hideous Laughter
> - Silent Image
> - Find familiar
> - Fog cloud
> 
> ...


This is a pretty good list.

*Shield*, *Absorb Elements*, and *Find Familiar* are things I take on every single Abjurer.

There are entire guides about the many ways to use familiars.  Owls are great for general purposes, due to having Flyby and good sensory abilities.  Likely their most common contribution in combat will be providing Advantage to one of your allies with the Help action, then flying to a safe(r) location using Flyby, so that they won't just become collateral damage from an AoE or something.

___

I'd recommend taking at least a couple of Rituals, since they have almost no opportunity cost beyond some GP to add them to your spellbook.  No need to prepare, no need to spend slots.  *Alarm* is only okay, but for an Abjurer it's nice because it can convert every 10 minutes of travel time or downtime into a couple points of Arcane Ward.  *Unseen Servant* can be kept up pretty much indefinitely (due to its hour duration).  It's nice before you have much use for your bonus actions, since it can be used to drop ball bearings or serve potions or what-have-you.  *Detect Magic* will help you with investigations, finding loot and traps, etc.  Remember that rituals _do not require you to stand still while casting them_.

___

*Web* is a damn good example of an early battlefield control spell.  
- Guaranteed difficult terrain.
- Enemies have to save every turn they start in the area, _and_ when they enter an area for the first time (such as if they're knocked in by a Thunderwave, grappled, etc).  You can have multiple chances to lock enemies down.
- They actually have to use an Action to even attempt to break free!  That's a huge improvement over the usual "save at the end of your turn."
- Not only that, but when they try to break free, they have to make a Strength _check_ rather than a Strength _save_.  Not only are Strength checks weaker, but they're easier to debuff (for example, the local Warlock's Hex will do it automatically).
- Will quickly collapse if cast in the air, but not before potentially Restraining a flier and making them fall to their doom!  Just had a session where my newly-level 3 Sorcerer used this to instantly decide a fight with a group of harpies trying to lure us off a cliffside right after initiative was rolled.
- The burning is unmissable damage.

*Silent Image* scales with your creativity, but at a very minimum can be used as a vision blocker that your teammates can see through.  *Fog Cloud* is also a useful vision control spell.  *Pyrotechnics* is kind of like a non-Concentration Fog Cloud (or alternatively a blinding effect).  *Darkness* is another useful vision control spell, and some parties synergize a lot better with it than others.  In general for vision control spells, it is imperative that you use them with care, or you might end up screwing over Team PCs instead of Team Monster.  But if you _do_ use them intelligently, they can go a long way.

*Levitate* can remove an enemy from the fight, and doesn't give them repeated saving throws.  And when the spell _does_ end, they fall and take damage + prone.  Alternatively, it can keep someone out of reach of melee monsters.  Or help you traverse an environment.  And so forth.  The main downside is that it's a single target all-or-nothing save spell.  *Phantasmal Force* is another option for removing a target from a fight, and can target Int saves (which is a good thing).  *Hold Person* is a good option for this too, but only for humanoids.  *Tasha's Hideous Laughter* and *Cause Fear* will also slow down a single target.

*Grease's* main attraction is its lack of Concentration (as with Pyrotechnics).  

I'm not sure I entirely agree about *Identify*, just because there's a rule in the DMG that lets you identify most magic gear over a short rest, and because it needs that 100gp pearl.  It has its uses but it's not something I usually prioritize at low levels.

___

As far as single target damage options go, I generally recommend *Magic Missile* (barring Advantage or the like, it'll outdamage Chromatic Orb against AC12+, and in a level 2 slot it'll outdamage Scorching Ray against AC14+.  And that's in addition to other advantages like Force type damage, ignoring cover, reliability, etc).  

The alternate mention in that category is *Catapult* (which lets you line up multiple targets in case the first misses, has some utility in manipulating objects at range, can fire objects from multiple angles to get around cover, and depending on DM interpretation can be readied to return fired projectiles or get extra effects from launching alchemical items or the like).

_Avoid_ Chromatic Orb (usually worse than MM, and you could buy two extra abjuration spells for the price of its material component), Melf's Acid Arrow (mathematically god-awful), Witch Bolt (also mathematically awful), and Mind Spike (this one is only relevant to diviners).

___

As far as multi-target damage options go, my most frequent pick is *Thunderwave*.  Con saves get a bad rap (often with good reason) but they aren't bad compared to Dex saves _against low CR mooks in particular._  Which is what low level AoEs care about.  And the "you need to get close" part isn't as bad for Abjurers.  And it'll do the same damage as Shatter if upcast (though obviously without the benefit of range and damaging objects).  And tactically adept players can get a lot of mileage out of repositioning foes (especially with certain party compositions, or if the DM fills their environments with interesting things - as they should).

Alternate choices include *Burning Hands, Ice Knife, and Shatter*.  There's also *Dragon's Breath*, which is generally most useful for upgrading an allied mook.  Or *Flaming Sphere*, for a Concentration/bonus action source of damage.  _Avoid_ Snilloc's Snowball Swarm and Aganazzar's, which are just worse than upcast level 1 AoEs, let alone Shatter.

___

I like Skylived's list of "maybes" and generally agree with them being in that category _except for Dust Devil_.  *Cloud of Daggers* is either quite good or sucky depending on party composition and strategy.  *Hold Person* can _really_ ruin someone's day, but only targets Humanoids.  *Suggestion* varies wildly in effectiveness by DM interpretation (all the way from "geez, if you read it like that why would you ever cast it" to "zomgwtfbbq").

The reason I don't like *Dust Devil* even though I adore abusing environmental hazards is because in order for it to toss anyone, they need to _end_ their turn next to it.  Am I missing something there, Skylivedk?

My list of maybes would probably replace Dust Devil with *Warding Wind* or something.

----------


## Quietus

> If you'll look closely I do actually mention Twinned Firebolt in the post!
> 
> I suppose Forge Cleric is somewhat of a relic of the original goal to use Elemental Weapon, since it would get that spell at level 5 instead of level 9, but the decision to use Searing Smite makes that somewhat obsolete. I think aside from the thematic synergy of Divine Strike, the main appeal is full caster slots, along with the extra AC and fire resistance (without having to spend a sorcery point). However, Paladin is definitely a viable alternative, and comes with the benefits of a Fighting Style, Channel Divinity and Auras, if you take it as far as level 6-7. And Divine Smite is definitely a useful alternative to have against fire-immune enemies, and as you say could even be stacked for higher (if costlier) nova potential. And you could dump Wis as well, which is good for a Str-using build... definitely a good option!


Apologies, I must have missed that!  I'm hoping I didn't miss this, but...  did you also consider the use of Absorb Elements?  It would only work against enemies that do fire damage, or if you have an in-class (or in-party) way to inflict fire on yourself, but it's also another spell that does fire damage, and would add another 2x Charisma to your damage.  If you wanted to be really silly I suppose you could light yourself on fire and take 1d6 fire per turn, potentially with resistance from draconic sorcerer, and then Absorb Elements to soak up the remaining damage and turn it into 1d6+2xcha offense.  That does hemorrhage spell slots, of course, but at level 14 when this all comes together, it results in 1d8 (shillelagh) + 1d6 (searing smite) + 1d6 (absorb elements) + 2d8 (GFB) + 7x Cha.  Assuming 20 charisma, that's 55.5 damage per hit, with a rider tagging a second opponent for 2d8+cha (14). 

As to class levels - I'd probably look at 2 paladin, 6 sorcerer, 6 warlock as the 'base build', and then build your last 6 levels into sorcerer for additional spell slots.

----------


## Alucard89

A build I was thinking about this week, so I want to share for others.

*The Casters Bane*

*1 Hexblade/12 Ancients Paladin/7 Divine Soul Sorcerer Yuan-Ti Pure blood*.

Alternative path: 2/7/11 if you don' mind loosing fear immunity and IDS and want Agonizing Blast + more sorcadin stuff.



*Race:* Yuan-Ti Pure Blood
*Stats*: 13 STR, 10 DEX, 15 CON, 10 WIS, 17 CHA (You can go 15 STR if you really want that plate armor, but in this build I prefer to have rounded stats to stack as much overall save throw bonuses as possible)
*ASI:* +1 CON,+1 CHA on level 5. +2 CHA on level 9, Sentinel level 13, Lucky level 17 or RES (CON/DEX) on level 17.
Progression: Paladin 1/Hexblade 1/Paladin 11/Divine Soul Sorcerer 7

*1. Role:* You despise those who deny natural order, those who use arcane magic to bend reality and nature around them instead of living in harmony with it. Magic wielders fear you as their magic seem to have no effect on you... 

You are Bane of all casters. You shrug off their spells and mind tricks. Their fireballs tickle you, their banishment spells are too weak to affect you. 

You are also hell of a tank with high AC, high HP, tons of defensive spells, resistances and advantage vs spells. You also give Aura to all your party members. And you can still dish out very good damage. *AOE, single target and range damage!* 

*2. Key Features of Casters Bane:*

1. Advantage on all saves vs spell/magic effects
2. Resistance to all spell damage
3. Proficiency in WIS and CHA saves which are very important. Lucky + Favoured by the Gods + Bless to boost saves if needed.
4. Immunity to Poison damage and Poisoned condition
5. +5 to all saves
6. Immunity to Fear
7. Shield + Absorb Elements spell.
8. Spiritual Weapon for extra DPR
9. Spirit Guardians for Extra DPR
10. Improved Divine Smite for extra DPR
11. 7th level slot caster
12. Armor of Agathys 
13. SAD CHA
14. Very good single target melee DPR and good "per encounter" DPR and good single target range DPR.
15. Ensnering Strike + Nature's Wrath + Sentinel give good single target CC.

*3. Spells:
*
1. Hex + Curse for everyday DPR increase + Single Target boss fight
2. Very good Moonbeam spell for good AOE damage on your action.
3. Misty step + 20 CHA + Aura + Advantage on Spell Saves + Lucky means that Force Wall or Force Cage, Banishment etc. spells are joke to you and you will just walk away from them.
4. Silence spell + Sentinel makes sure that enemy caster is unable to leave your reach.
5. Resistance to spell damage + advantage on saves + Favoured by the Gods + Lucky + Absorb Elements spells will make sure you will take petty damage from almost anything.
6. You can still Smite the hell out of someone on your attacks as any other Paladin. You also crit on 19-20 with thanks to Curse.
7. High AC of min. 19 + Shield of Faith + Shield spell if needed.

*4. Damage:*

1. Hex + Curse + Improved Divine Smite + Longsword + Dueling, dealing 2 x (2d8 + 1d6 + 11) = 47 DPR.
2. Spiritual Weapon on level 16 adds additional 2d8 + 1d6 + 10, so additional 22.5 DPR. 
3. Spiritual Guardians instead of Hex can add another AOE DPR with min. 3d8 to max 7d8 radiant damage around you.
4. Smites, increased crit range.
5. Eldricht Blast + Curse + Hex when fighting range enemies.
6. Haste can add another attack at higher levels.
7. Moonbeam till you get Spirit Guardians can be upcasted up to 6th level slot, dealing 6d10 radiant damage to enemies every turn.
8. Mirror Image + Sentinel can add another attack on reaction.

*5. Anti-Caster:*

1. Almost impossible to stop with any spell
2. Resistance to all spell damage
3. Sentinel + Silence spell. Run to enemy Wizard, cast Silence around you and him. Curse him with bonus action. He can't teleport out, he can't disengage (Sentinel). Use Lucky and make sure you hit him and stop him in place. Smites are not spells so you can smite the hell out of him.
4. Misty Step to teleport out of Hard-CC spells like Force Cage.
5. Almost impossible to stop with any CHA spell-saves like Banishment.
6. Enhance Ability + Counterspell + 20 CHA can shut down quite a lot of spell if you prefer this route.

Overall a very solid build that stays stronger and is progressively getting even stronger throughout all Tiers. On Tier 4 you are pretty much unstoppable and you still bring all the good of Paladin, but now enchanced. You still deal very good damage and solid Nova, while being pain the abs for every caster. And you are hell of a tank.

Now, the reason behind 7 levels of Divine Soul to finish build:

As Paladin you always need more slots. Sorc/Bard dips always provide that. Next thing is that after level 11 Paladins don't really get much. And since level 12 is ASI, we can just go for it. We could go level 14 for Cleansing Touch which is thematic for this build, but I think we are already really well covered vs magic. Paladins are really good in Tier 1-3. In Tier 4 they are still great but they don't bring anything new. I think that additional damage boosts thanks to spells like Spiritual Weapon or Spirit Guardians are really solid. 7 Levels of Hexblade would also work I think, same as with for example Lore Bard. I think those 7 levels are really flexible, thought I think for non-PAM build - Spiritual Weapon is something that is always worth to get. You can also go 13 levels of Paladin just to grab Find Greater Steed. But it's better for striker type of hero, you are tank so you want to sit on boss/caster face and it delays ASI further, so I would stick to 12 levels.

The other route would be to go standard Sorcadin route and multiclass to Sorc at level 1 /7. However I really like anti-fear Aura of Paladin and Improved Divine Smites. Unless you have a caster who cast Heroes' Feast before every sleep - fear immunity is hard to pass. The 1/7/12 Build also opens up Holy Weapon buff later. But that buff will come at level 15 total. While Hex + Improved Divine Smite is already 1d6 + 1d8 vs 2d8 of Holy Weapon and IDS is always on. I don't really think it's that worth. I guess you have to ask yourself what do you want from your Casters Bane. 2 Levels of Hexblade would also give Agonizing Blast, making this build "good" at pretty much everything. Question is how much delay in slots progression you are willing to take.

----------


## Skylivedk

> This is a pretty good list.


Thanks




> I'd recommend taking at least a couple of Rituals, since they have almost no opportunity cost beyond some GP to add them to your spellbook.  No need to prepare, no need to spend slots.  *Alarm* is only okay, but for an Abjurer it's nice because it can convert every 10 minutes of travel time or downtime into a couple points of Arcane Ward.  *Unseen Servant* can be kept up pretty much indefinitely (due to its hour duration).  It's nice before you have much use for your bonus actions, since it can be used to drop ball bearings or serve potions or what-have-you.  *Detect Magic* will help you with investigations, finding loot and traps, etc.  Remember that rituals _do not require you to stand still while casting them_.


It's part of the reason I have Identify on my list. That and one of my groups losing two characters to cursed weapons. Probably depends on how DM sees the Identify role in the DMG and cursed items + how often items are cursed.





> *Grease's* main attraction is its lack of Concentration (as with Pyrotechnics).


Most DMs also would allow for it to make slanted surfaces very hard trip traverse - I've had lenient DMs make this spell a cavalry killer on mountain roads (especially covered by minor illusion/lack of light etc).




> I'm not sure I entirely agree about *Identify*, just because there's a rule in the DMG that lets you identify most magic gear over a short rest, and because it needs that 100gp pearl.  It has its uses but it's not something I usually prioritize at low levels.


DM that allows cursed items to be identified this way with no triggering (or doesn't use cursed items)? No need for Identify

___
*[Snip]*




> The reason I don't like *Dust Devil* even though I adore abusing environmental hazards is because in order for it to toss anyone, they need to _end_ their turn next to it.  Am I missing something there, Skylivedk?
> 
> My list of maybes would probably replace Dust Devil with *Warding Wind* or something.


I think Warding Wind is in general better. I haven't used either much.

For spells to pick at 2, my 4 would usually be:
Web
Levitate
Enlarge/Reduce
Invisibility/Darkness/Pyrotechnics


Dust Devil is usually a bad spell IMO and I probably shouldn't have included it. Maybe pure nostalgia, but I've had campaigns where I could reasonably predict being in situations with ledges and could count on team members for some control. Ie airships and mountains with grapplers. So I would rarely/never pick it outside of knowing I would be highly likely to fight in a space with suitable hazards. Outside of that, it doesn't make it to top 12 for my level 2 spells.

----------


## DevanAvalon

Alright, I have a request:

I've been trying to figure out how to make a Claymore... from the anime Claymore. Some kind of Paladin/Fighter maybe? But I don't know, I just want something that fits the theme of "I am part-monster, and sworn to my duties... risking losing myself in the process" without using a Blood Hunter.

----------


## Neoh

> Alright, I have a request:
> 
> I've been trying to figure out how to make a Claymore... from the anime Claymore. Some kind of Paladin/Fighter maybe? But I don't know, I just want something that fits the theme of "I am part-monster, and sworn to my duties... risking losing myself in the process" without using a Blood Hunter.


Well Claymores are part monsters too so I don't know about Paladin really, even though the whole "hunting monsters" thing would fit a Paladin. 

How about an Hexblade Warlock? I think you can fluff it really well, Pact with a Patron making you sorta monster-like, Pact of the Blade for the Claymore itself and so on. 

You could definitely throw in 2-3 levels of Fighter or Paladin too. 


Hell, a Barbarian could fit the Claymore theme really well, you don't have to be that naked muscly guy, fluff it however you want. Rage pictures rather well a Claymore in a fight I think.

----------


## Alucard89

> Alright, I have a request:
> 
> I've been trying to figure out how to make a Claymore... from the anime Claymore. Some kind of Paladin/Fighter maybe? But I don't know, I just want something that fits the theme of "I am part-monster, and sworn to my duties... risking losing myself in the process" without using a Blood Hunter.


Part-Monster is not really a viable option in 5e classes.

I think you should take "Monster" part in roleplay as a monster race. So make your PC monster race like Bugbear, Orc, Kobold, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Yuan-Ti Pureblood etc.

My build above "Casters Bane" could be taken as such. You are Yuanti-Pureblood, you suffer the "evil and monster" nature of your race but you are sworn to your duties but since you don't feel emotions, every time you make decision you risk that you may follow your monster self.

Same with Goblins/Orcs etc. 

So what I would do:

1. Take monster race, usually considered evil by everyone else
2. Take Paladin to show "sworn to my duties" 
3. Fight against your nature to prove everyone else that you are Claymore and you won't become monster they fear.

And work around that to roleplay the rest. 

Mechanically there is no part-monster stuff.

----------


## Godshoe

> Part-Monster is not really a viable option in 5e classes.


cough
blood hunter lycan left the building
cough

----------


## Alucard89

> cough
> blood hunter lycan left the building
> cough


Official sources. I don't consider homebrew classes part of 5e.

----------


## Godshoe

> Official sources. I don't consider homebrew classes part of 5e.


Like Matthew Mercer is a first day DM and done nothing to dnd, well yeah
We have no reason to trust his experience in game making

----------


## Godshoe

> It's not that Matthew Mercer wasn't an experienced DM. It's simply that he is not a full time Wizards of the Coast employee and part of the Dungeons & Dragons design team. Thus, everything he's made beyond Explorer's Guide to Wildemount is homebrew. Period.


I mean, of course, this is a homebrew, but it is a more respectable source that you can trust in terms of balance. Therefore, there is no reason to treat it so arrogantly.
DevanAvalon did not request only AL materials. And this is good material in his request.

----------


## Klorox

> Being categorized as homebrew isn't necessarily equal to being crap. If the OP has decided to not use homebrew it's perfectly acceptable approach and implies absolutely nothing.


Stop with your logic! 😜

----------


## Alucard89

_PLAGUE STALKER_




Another one of more of a thematic builds that I was thinking about in last days.

*The Build:* 1 Druid/5 Ranger (Revised if possible): Gloom  Stalker/14 Spore Druid
*Race:* Variant Human
*Feats:* Polearm Master level 1, Warcaster level 5, +2 WIS level 9, +2 WIS level 13.
*Stats:* 14 DEX, 16 CON, 16 WIS

*The goal:* You are the gloomy guardian of the forests... even druids and driads are afraid of talking about you. You lurk in the dark, surrounded by sounds of flies and cloud of spores. You prefer night and darkness, away, away from others. You see those who destroy nature as disease, sick roots. You are there is get rid of them, consume them with spores, make it whole with the soil again. 

*Features:*

- 2 attacks + bonus action attack + dread ambusher + reaction spore attack + Symbiotic Entity damage bonus + Hunter's Mark
- SAD WIS thanks to Shillelagh for both casting and attacking
- Symbiotic Entity THP 5/level of Druid.
- 8th level druid caster
- Umbral Sight - invisibility in darkness
- Dread Ambusher
- Dark Vision
- Advantage in first turn
- Revised Ranger features
- FF: Humanoids
- Dueling fighting Style
- 19 AC with Half-Plate + Shield
- Wild Shapes
- Fungal Infestation for additional "body" on battlefield
- Fungal Body as HUGE capstone: *"At 14th level, the fungal spores in your body alter you: you cant be blinded, deafened, frightened, or poisoned, and any critical hit against you counts as a normal hit, unless you are incapacitated."*


*Damage at level 11- 5/6:* 

With Symbiotic Entity casted in your to add 1d6 extra poison damage on all your attacks + PAM Shillelagh + Dueling + Hunter's Mark + Dread Ambusher + Halo reaction attack + 2 if fighting humanoids the DPR looks like this: 4x (1d8 + 2d6 + 8) + 1d8 + 1d6. All from Wisdom. *Which gives a very good DPR of 86*. You also have advantage in first turn and advantage in darkness vs both darkvision and non-darkvision enemies. PAM also can give you another reaction opening attack when enemy gets in your range, which will further increase it.

You are also a very strong caster at level 11 with 3rd Druid spells and 5th level slot. You get conjure woodlands beings, conjure animals, moonbeam, fearie fire, entangle etc. all good druid stuff.

Symbiotic Entity also gives temp HP at this level of 30 THP.

----------


## Quietus

> _PLAGUE STALKER_
> 
> *Features:*
> 
> - 2 attacks + bonus action attack + dread ambusher + reaction spore attack + Symbiotic Entity damage bonus + Hunter's Mark
> - SAD WIS thanks to Shillelagh for both casting and attacking
> - Symbiotic Entity THP 5/level of Druid.
> - 8th level druid caster
> - Umbral Sight - invisibility in darkness
> ...


I really like what you're going for, but I think you're overestimating what you can actually accomplish.  Specifically, looking at your expected damage loadout, you're going to be needing a lot of pre-combat setup to really get going.

- 2 attacks + bonus action attack + dread ambusher + reaction spore attack + Symbiotic Entity damage bonus + Hunter's Mark
- SAD WIS thanks to Shillelagh for both casting and attacking

This relies on you using two bonus actions and one action before you can start using that bonus action attack.  And then, once your target drops, you get to choose whether you're moving Hunter's Mark, or making that bonus action attack.  I'd probably try and reduce reliance on Hunter's Mark, but that still means that if you don't get the chance to buff ahead of time, you have to choose between activating Symbiotic Entity vs. attacking and getting your Dread Ambusher attack.

When everything comes together, this character will be deadly.  Outside of those moments, you'll still be functional as a gloom stalker, just not stacking nearly so many d6's on your attacks.

----------


## Alucard89

> I really like what you're going for, but I think you're overestimating what you can actually accomplish.  Specifically, looking at your expected damage loadout, you're going to be needing a lot of pre-combat setup to really get going.
> 
> - 2 attacks + bonus action attack + dread ambusher + reaction spore attack + Symbiotic Entity damage bonus + Hunter's Mark
> - SAD WIS thanks to Shillelagh for both casting and attacking
> 
> This relies on you using two bonus actions and one action before you can start using that bonus action attack.  And then, once your target drops, you get to choose whether you're moving Hunter's Mark, or making that bonus action attack.  I'd probably try and reduce reliance on Hunter's Mark, but that still means that if you don't get the chance to buff ahead of time, you have to choose between activating Symbiotic Entity vs. attacking and getting your Dread Ambusher attack.
> 
> When everything comes together, this character will be deadly.  Outside of those moments, you'll still be functional as a gloom stalker, just not stacking nearly so many d6's on your attacks.


Shillelagh is cantrip, you can just spam it all the time to have it pre-prepared. Not problem here. It doesn't cost resources to keep it up. Hunter's Mark is bonus action, yes. Symbiotic Entity is 10 minute long, if you are expecting fight or in dungeon there is no point of not pre-casting it, especially since you have quite a lot uses of it. 

Many people seem to think like "pre-buffing" does not happen but I honestly don't know why- unless it's ambush it's quite easy in my opinion to know when the fight is coming or not, especially if you are in adventuring day in enemy base, tomb, castle etc. 

Even if - the whole thing is just Bonus Action Hunter's Mark and Action: Symbiotic. Shillelagh I don't count since you can spam it all day long. So it's not different from Hexblades using in first turn SoM or Darkness to prepare and go to town next turn or Paladin using VoE + Bless in first turn or Sacred Weapon etc. There is always some magical preparation with all "gish" characters.

----------


## Hairfish

> Shillelagh is cantrip, you can just spam it all the time to have it pre-prepared. Not problem here.


The problem is that this is only realistic if you're playing a MMO (and even then, it's a giant pain in the ass) and not role-playing a character.

Try it out. Set your phone to a fifty-seven second timer. Every time it goes off, spend three seconds resetting it. For eight hours. See how much your productivity suffers. Do it while you're around people who have to put up with it. Insist that you have to keep doing it so that you'll be prepared in case there's a fight. You'd be the most annoying prepper ever.

----------


## Alucard89

> The problem is that this is only realistic if you're playing a MMO (and even then, it's a giant pain in the ass) and not role-playing a character.
> 
> Try it out. Set your phone to a fifty-seven second timer. Every time it goes off, spend three seconds resetting it. For eight hours. See how much your productivity suffers. Do it while you're around people who have to put up with it. Insist that you have to keep doing it so that you'll be prepared in case there's a fight. You'd be the most annoying prepper ever.


If I know my life can depend on it- I would do something like that. Besdies again- if you go on adventuring day, which is quite obvious usually - I don't see a problem in keeping important spell active. It's no different from keeping Guidance active, spamming abjuration spell or ritual to refresh ward of warlock spamming Fiend's Vigor to get maximum roll. You can incorporate that in gameplay. It's been used like that for very long time.

----------


## LudicSavant

> The problem is that this is only realistic if you're playing a MMO (and even then, it's a giant pain in the ass) and not role-playing a character.
> 
> Try it out. Set your phone to a fifty-seven second timer. Every time it goes off, spend three seconds resetting it. For eight hours. See how much your productivity suffers. Do it while you're around people who have to put up with it. Insist that you have to keep doing it so that you'll be prepared in case there's a fight. You'd be the most annoying prepper ever.


My perspective on this as a DM:

I wouldn't necessarily assume that a bonus action takes 3 seconds of undivided attention fiddling with your phone.   It could be as simple as snapping your fingers.

Also, being ready and on high alert through the entirety of an extended breach and clear scenario (which is basically what a lot of dungeoneering is) would not only be possible, it's... pretty much just what you do if you value your life.  If you had to press a button every minute to keep your phaser charged on a dangerous away mission, you'd do it.

As such, I would find it entirely reasonable for a player to maintain shillelagh the entire time they were in the kind of situation where they would be moving about with their weapon drawn and at the ready.

----------


## Quietus

> Shillelagh is cantrip, you can just spam it all the time to have it pre-prepared. Not problem here. It doesn't cost resources to keep it up. Hunter's Mark is bonus action, yes. Symbiotic Entity is 10 minute long, if you are expecting fight or in dungeon there is no point of not pre-casting it, especially since you have quite a lot uses of it. 
> 
> Many people seem to think like "pre-buffing" does not happen but I honestly don't know why- unless it's ambush it's quite easy in my opinion to know when the fight is coming or not, especially if you are in adventuring day in enemy base, tomb, castle etc. 
> 
> Even if - the whole thing is just Bonus Action Hunter's Mark and Action: Symbiotic. Shillelagh I don't count since you can spam it all day long. So it's not different from Hexblades using in first turn SoM or Darkness to prepare and go to town next turn or Paladin using VoE + Bless in first turn or Sacred Weapon etc. There is always some magical preparation with all "gish" characters.


The difference here is that a Hexblade doesn't have an ability that specifically requires it be used in the first turn of combat - gloomstalker has dread ambusher, and that only works on that first turn.  As for having shillelagh up constantly, enjoy never being hidden, because it's got a verbal component.  You aren't moving silently, ever again.




> Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.

----------


## SleepThief

I've seen this samurai build mentioned several times, but haven't been able to find it so far. Was it never posted here or condensed somewhere? Or am I just blind lol.

----------


## LudicSavant

> I've seen this samurai build mentioned several times, but haven't been able to find it so far. Was it never posted here or condensed somewhere? Or am I just blind lol.


You're not blind.

The problem is that real life has seen to it that my to-do list has grown very large, with much of it being higher priority than posting build guides here.

Now you might be thinking "But Ludic, I see you posting in other threads."  That's true, but I can make those posts when I have nothing better to do but type on my phone.  For a high quality guide post I want to be focused and at my PC... but if I'm focused and at my PC that means I have to get important things done.  Basically you can think of it as me having two types of availability, and the kind I need to put up build guides has been booked solid for some time now.

But I'm making progress on that to-do list, so hopefully I'll be able to start posting build guides against soon.

But I guess *tl;dr version of Samurai build would be* Shadar-Kai Samurai 20, starting with Dex 17, then getting Sharpshooter, Elven Accuracy, and 20 Dex by level 8.  Then just kinda grabbing whatever other nice feats you like after that (like Alert).  Simple, straightforward DPR core for a party that scales unusually well with buffs or magic gear.  Also well-rounded defenses (Shadar-Kai Resistance and Teleport, good at Con, Dex, and Wis saves, temp HP generation, etc).

----------


## SleepThief

> Now you might be thinking "But Ludic, I see you posting in other threads."  That's true, but I can make those posts when I have nothing better to do but type on my phone.  For a high quality guide post I want to be focused and at my PC... but if I'm focused and at my PC that means I have to get important things done.  Basically you can think of it as me having two types of availability, and the kind I need to put up build guides has been booked solid for some time now.
> 
> But I'm making progress on that to-do list, so hopefully I'll be able to start posting build guides against soon.


It's appreciated! And I'm not trying to rush you, everybody's going through wild bouts of either nothing to do or too much to do right now. I myself have little better to do than lookup builds I might play for inspiration.

Thank you for the summary!

----------


## ftafp

*The Astral Pariah*

*Race:* Protector Aasimar
*Class:* Paladin 2/Moon Druid X
*Stats:* 13,10,14,8,15+1,12+2

The build is pretty basic, turn into an animal that glows with galaxies in its fur and then proceed to to rip and tear through everything in your path with claws and searing starlight. the crux of this is that both divne smite and radiant soul work while wild shaped, and as a moon druid you'll have little need to use your spell slots for anything else



In other news, I'm toying around with a WIP build I call *The Grave Digger.* It starts off as a V. Human (prodigy: athletics) Druid whose whole goal is to grapple foes and then bury them. At level 1 this is done with mold earth but the idea was to start using Giant Badger form, the obvious issue is a giant badger has 13 str and 5e has no way to boost it. I've also considered a beastmaster ranger build but in that case the carrying capacity situation is even worse because it needs to haul you as well. any ideas on how to make this viable?

----------


## Klorox

> *The Astral Pariah*
> 
> *Race:* Protector Aasimar
> *Class:* Paladin 2/Moon Druid X
> *Stats:* 13,10,14,8,15+1,12+2
> 
> The build is pretty basic, turn into an animal that glows with galaxies in its fur and then proceed to to rip and tear through everything in your path with claws and searing starlight. the crux of this is that both divne smite and radiant soul work while wild shaped, and as a moon druid you'll have little need to use your spell slots for anything else
> 
> 
> ...


Cool idea, I like it!

I miss the pic you had originally.

----------


## BarneyBent

> *The Astral Pariah*
> 
> *Race:* Protector Aasimar
> *Class:* Paladin 2/Moon Druid X
> *Stats:* 13,10,14,8,15+1,12+2
> 
> The build is pretty basic, turn into an animal that glows with galaxies in its fur and then proceed to to rip and tear through everything in your path with claws and searing starlight. the crux of this is that both divne smite and radiant soul work while wild shaped, and as a moon druid you'll have little need to use your spell slots for anything else
> 
> 
> ...


You could dip Barbarian for rage giving advantage on STR checks. Combined with Expertise a 13 STR should be fine.

A bigger issue is the Giant Badger has ****-all HP and there's no good way to boost that for later levels, especially since as a Grappler you'll be taking lots of hits. Rage helps but not enough.

You have just given me an idea for a multiclass Druid 2/Cleric X build though. Idea is to set up Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon, then burrow and move around the field as required. Get Find Familiar through Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster at either level 1 (if V Human) or level 4 to see through its eyes for Spiritual Weapon attacks, and it can also take Help Actions.

----------


## ftafp

> Cool idea, I like it!
> 
> I miss the pic you had originally.


Thanks and same. but I've had this account for like 5 days. I don't want to do anything to get an infraction




> You could dip Barbarian for rage giving advantage on STR checks. Combined with Expertise a 13 STR should be fine.
> 
> A bigger issue is the Giant Badger has ****-all HP and there's no good way to boost that for later levels, especially since as a Grappler you'll be taking lots of hits. Rage helps but not enough.
> 
> You have just given me an idea for a multiclass Druid 2/Cleric X build though. Idea is to set up Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon, then burrow and move around the field as required. Get Find Familiar through Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster at either level 1 (if V Human) or level 4 to see through its eyes for Spiritual Weapon attacks, and it can also take Help Actions.


A Moon Druid 10/Abjurer 10 might be able to squeak by with arcane ward and temp hp. Alternatively, if you're willing to abandon moon druid (and earth elemental along with it), shepherd druid grants the bear spirit which gives you and your allies temp HP and str advantage. honestly though, these are all pretty terrible options. It's a shame there are so few ways to get a burrow speed. Perhaps a shepherd druid would just be better off summoning giant badgers and earth elementals to do the work for him

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## DevanAvalon

Putting forth a simple gimmick build.

Battle Smith Artificer 6/Scout Rogue 3, and if continuing, honestly Artificer the rest of the way to 20.

Battle Smith, repeating shot infused heavy crossbow, Variant Human (for Sharpshooter). Rogue 3 just for an additional 2d6 one at least one crossbow shot every turn because your Steel Defender can trigger sneak attack. ...honestly, that's it, I don't know if I even really can say anything else, since it's just Artificer 6 for better infusions other than Repeating Shot, Scout Rogue 3 for general utility, maybe Thief instead so you can more easily swap to melee SHOULD it be necessary.

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## Citadel97501

> You have just given me an idea for a multiclass Druid 2/Cleric X build though. Idea is to set up Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon, then burrow and move around the field as required. Get Find Familiar through Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster at either level 1 (if V Human) or level 4 to see through its eyes for Spiritual Weapon attacks, and it can also take Help Actions.


Damn are you just trying to have your DM wring your neck lol, that is extremely evil burrowed spirit guardians ugh.

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## DevanAvalon

Can I put in a request for a Transmutation Wizard build? Preferably pure Transmutation? I've been trying and trying to figure out how to make a Simic Scientist Background Simic, with all the cool buff and transmutation spells I could, but even starting at level 3, I can't come up with spells that would be useful in combat and random utility, rather than just... going ALL transmutation cause most if not all of the buff spells are concentration and I just don't know what to do.

Yes I could eventually spend the time copying the extra spells into my spellbook, and that's what I would be doing with the spells not explicitly useful enough to take via level up. But I still don't know beyond that.

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## Bobthewizard

*The Templar of Time*

*Echo Knight 3 / Hexblade 17*



This is a twist on the classic Hexblade 17/ Fighter 3 multiclass utilizing the new Echo Knight subclass from Wildmount. As always, adding action surge to a hexblade gives great nova potential, but it's even better with the Echo knight's extra attack and the ability to do it from 30' away. Then I picked spells to give it a theme because I think that's always more fun. And the nova is spectacular. I recently did 277HP of damage in one round to an AC 22 opponent.

_He was one of the best slave soldiers in Mulhorand. Anhur, the great god of war, looked upon him favorably and made him a Templar of Time. Even though he was a slave, he was respected and had a good life, leading armies for his priest-king. When slavery was abolished recently, he was offered a great sum of money by his former owner to stay and continue to fight, but he declined, thanked his former master, and left his homeland to explore the world. Since then, he has been wandering the world, looking for his own adventure on his own terms. 
_
Half-elf starting stats of 8,13,15,10,10,15 become 8,14,16,10,10,17 

First take 3 levels of echo knight for Manifest Echo and Unleash Incarnation
At level 5 (Warlock 2), you use eldritch blast with agonizing blast or a greatsword.
At level 8, (Warlock 5), thirsting blade gives you second attack

Like many multiclass builds, this build is a little behind from levels 5-7. But unleash incarnation and action surge let you keep up somewhat and at level 8, thirsting blade gets you your second attack. It might level better as Fighter 1, Warlock 5, Fighter 3, Warlock X, but I like the flavor of getting Echo knight earlier.

*Feats/ASIs* at warlock level (you can take these in any order you want)
4. Elven Accuracy
8. GWM
12. +2 Cha
16. Sentinel

*Invocations*
Agonizing Blast
Thirsting Blade
Eldritch Smite
One with the Shadows -> Shroud of Shadow
Whispers of the Grave
Lifedrinker
Visions of Distant Realms

*Spells*
Reflavor spells and invocations as manipulating time. Have your character summon versions of himself, allies and former enemies from alternate doomed timelines to help him in battle (Manifest Echo, Accursed Specter, Summon Greater Demon). He can see brief glimpses of the future (Arcane Eye, Scrying, and Foresight), can stop time to rearrange a battlefield (Fly, Scatter), or just stop time for others (Hold Person/Monster, Hypnotic Pattern, Feeblemind), and can send others to alternate timelines (Banishment, Banishing Smite) or talk to their past selves (Speak with Dead). He can also disappear from this timeline (Invisibility, Shadow of Moil and Etherealness), and sometimes change the past (Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Remove Curse).

*Final Build*
At level 20, you can nova for 5 attacks (thirsting blade, action surge 1/SR, and unleash incarnation 3/LR) all with elven accuracy, lifedrinker and great weapon master and all from your echo while you are 30 away. Add banishing smite and an eldritch smite on if needed. As I said before, I recently did 277HP of damage in one round to an AC 22 opponent.

Use foresight or shadow of moil to get advantage which turns into triple advantage. Earlier you could use darkness/devils sight for the advantage.

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## LudicSavant

It is about damn time that I got back to updating this thread.

So!  First thing on the docket... update the first page with all the links to new builds.

Currently adding...
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=142
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=150
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=164
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=194
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=197
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=209
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=214
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=216
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=228
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=234
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=253
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=261
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=262
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=270
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=271
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=272
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=300
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=360
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=366

Next wave incoming soonish.

----------


## Huntlord

Just wanted to say a massive thanks Ludic, I appreciate all the work you put into everything you do.

----------


## LudicSavant

More updates:

The Grease Trap by Citadel97501 
Celestial Dragonforge Cleric, Master of the Searing Smite, by AgenderAcree
Zealot of Death, by Benny89
The Caster's Bane, by Alucard89 
Plague Stalker, by Alucard89
The Astral Paraih, by ftafp
The Templar of Time, by Bobthewizard

If I have missed any builds that need to be added to the first page, please let me know.




> Just wanted to say a massive thanks Ludic, I appreciate all the work you put into everything you do.


<3

----------


## Citadel97501

I had two things.  :)
1) Great job on that Templar of Time that looks like a lot of fun to play.  

2) Has anyone worked out a multi-class Rogue: Assassin taking advantage of their ridiculous auto-crit function?  This seems like its asking for some multi-attack or bonus damage optimization but I personally have trouble working it into a build due to RP unless you use something like a Paladin of Conquest for the evil bent and the smiting, although I think this could work well with a Hexblade Blade-lock using Eldritch Smite as well.

----------


## Bobthewizard

> I had two things.  :)
> 1) Great job on that Templar of Time that looks like a lot of fun to play.  
> 
> 2) Has anyone worked out a multi-class Rogue: Assassin taking advantage of their ridiculous auto-crit function?  This seems like its asking for some multi-attack or bonus damage optimization but I personally have trouble working it into a build due to RP unless you use something like a Paladin of Conquest for the evil bent and the smiting, although I think this could work well with a Hexblade Blade-lock using Eldritch Smite as well.


1. Thanks. The Templar of Time has been fun so far but we just started a level 20 campaign.

2. Gloomstalker 5 / Assassin X with the alert feat is a pretty popular multi class on here, especially if you can use the revised ranger. I'd go ranged with crossbow expert and sharpshooter, maybe elven accuracy if you start at higher levels with good stats.

You could also also go Battlemaster 5/ Gloomstalker 3/ Assassin 3 / Fighter to 11 / Assassin to 6 for a third attack. I'd only do this for a high level start.

----------


## Skylivedk

I think the standard built for that is something like:
Gloom stalker 4-5 (for level 2 spells)
Assassin 3-5 (if you would rather umcanny dodge)
Battlemaster/Samurai 11-12
Hexblade 1 (you just want the curse and shield basically - Hex can also free a slot)

Personally, I find assassin too situational and would rather pick scout, more gloomstalker for the saves or more hexblade to be able to shoot dragons out of the sky. YMMV

----------


## Bobthewizard

> I think the standard built for that is something like:
> Gloom stalker 4-5 (for level 2 spells)
> Assassin 3-5 (if you would rather umcanny dodge)
> Battlemaster/Samurai 11-12
> Hexblade 1 (you just want the curse and shield basically - Hex can also free a slot)
> 
> Personally, I find assassin too situational and would rather pick scout, more gloomstalker for the saves or more hexblade to be able to shoot dragons out of the sky. YMMV


These are all valid points and opinions. Here's why I recommended what I did.

On the 3 class build, I would make sure to get extra attack at level 5. Otherwise you're behind the other characters until you get it. I also wouldn't double up extra attack which is why I went fighter first.

I agree with you on the rogue subclass and usually like scout better, but they specifically asked about assassin. You can make a great sniper with a Drow gloomstalker/ assassin with goggles of the night. (210' of darkvision and invisible to others' darkvision)

You'd need good rolled stats to add Hexblade. With point buy, I think you'd be better dumping Cha in order to put more into Dex, Wis, and Con. Just getting Cha to 13 I think would hurt.

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## Xoronis

I'm a newcomer around these parts, and while I've seen a couple of these builds mentioned in passing in other parts of the internet stumbling across this huge thread is like an early Christmas gift. 

I do have a question about the Nuclear Wizard though. Would swapping in three or four levels of Sorcerer by docking three or four levels of Wizard cripple this build in any way? You would have to sacrifice either an ASI or Overchannel, but then you'd have access to some metamagic to improve your nova damage (Empowered Spell would trend the average higher, especially if you're only rolling 1d4 for the whole spell rather than xd4 for each missile). As far as I understand the multiclassing spell progression table, you'd still have the same number of spells available to you since a sorcerer is also a full caster.

----------


## Skylivedk

> These are all valid points and opinions. Here's why I recommended what I did.
> 
> On the 3 class build, I would make sure to get extra attack at level 5. Otherwise you're behind the other characters until you get it. I also wouldn't double up extra attack which is why I went fighter first.
> 
> I agree with you on the rogue subclass and usually like scout better, but they specifically asked about assassin. You can make a great sniper with a Drow gloomstalker/ assassin with goggles of the night. (210' of darkvision and invisible to others' darkvision)
> 
> You'd need good rolled stats to add Hexblade. With point buy, I think you'd be better dumping Cha in order to put more into Dex, Wis, and Con. Just getting Cha to 13 I think would hurt.


Not really.
With wood elf, you can start with:
9 str
17 dex (bumps to 18 with elven accuracy)
14 con
8 int
14 wis
13 cha

You can also drop 1 wis if you know you get Res: Wis (so don't go 7 gloom). That nets you one more strength (mostly for carrying capacity and saves, some jumps).

Alternatively, 12 gloom, 5 Hexblade, 3 assassin. Assassin is hard to get to proc, so I highly recommend ranged. I had a pretty easy time getting the surprise effect when I played. With pass without trace and sharpshooter, you can lay down the hurt! 


Short on time, so the calculations pre-accuracy:

With guaranteed crits, your smites will hit for 8d8 (so Hexblade adds 16d8 (72)+18 damage in your opening round, if you tagged the target first).

Even without tagging, that's 40% more than your attacks that the 3 attacks on their own are 51=6d8 (27, the longbow) + 2d8 (9, the force damage) + 15 (Dex), I think it's a fair investment. With -10/+5, your base attacks are 1 short of your Eldritch Smite damage, and we haven't added neither crit range, the +3 from improved pact weapon (also accuracy!) not the Hexblade's Curse damage (18 mentioned above). 




> I'm a newcomer around these parts, and while I've seen a couple of these builds mentioned in passing in other parts of the internet stumbling across this huge thread is like an early Christmas gift. 
> 
> I do have a question about the Nuclear Wizard though. Would swapping in three or four levels of Sorcerer by docking three or four levels of Wizard cripple this build in any way? You would have to sacrifice either an ASI or Overchannel, but then you'd have access to some metamagic to improve your nova damage (Empowered Spell would trend the average higher, especially if you're only rolling 1d4 for the whole spell rather than xd4 for each missile). As far as I understand the multiclassing spell progression table, you'd still have the same number of spells available to you since a sorcerer is also a full caster.


I think you lose the Hallow trick that is 2x your damage... And in terms of playability, level 9 slots are pretty damn useful. Try going through Ludic's blast scenario and check the spells/abilities used

----------


## Xoronis

> I think you lose the Hallow trick that is 2x your damage... And in terms of playability, level 9 slots are pretty damn useful. Try going through Ludic's blast scenario and check the spells/abilities used


Don't you still have level 9 spell slots with that multiclass? Or am I misunderstanding something about how multiclassing works?

I did just realize you would lose the Hallow trick, since even though you would have level 9 slots for upcasting you wouldn't know any level 9 spells, so you don't have access to wish

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## Corran

> Short on time, so the calculations pre-accuracy:
> 
> With guaranteed crits, your smites will hit for 8d8 (so Hexblade adds 16d8 (72)+18 damage in your opening round, if you tagged the target first).


Nitpick: Eldritch smite has a limitation of once per turn, so it'd _only_ be 8d8 extra damage (assuming crit and 5 levels of hexblade) in the opening round.

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## Skylivedk

> Nitpick: Eldritch smite has a limitation of once per turn, so it'd _only_ be 8d8 extra damage (assuming crit and 5 levels of hexblade) in the opening round.


True. Silly me. Thanks! I'd still probably recommend it for optimization, but that's mostly because Assassin has pretty bad features later on and both Eldritch Smite, Devil's Sight and Improved Pact weapon can add a lot (and so can the spell slots). 

It does make taking other classes/more assassin levels more attractive though... Ie Assassin to 5, Hexblade 3 
or 
Hexblade 1 +  Battle Master 4 for that sweet sweet opening round of 6 attacks while still having ASIs (EA,  Sharpshooter, +2 Dex, XBe) 

If I expect a lot of dragons Hexblade 5 is still solid. For everything else, probably the Battle Master option with XBE, Devil's Sight and Mask of Many faces of some other utility. Shield is still a great pickup and Hex>Hunter's Mark because of the utility of disadvantage imposed on skill checks with no save

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## LudicSavant

> I'm a newcomer around these parts, and while I've seen a couple of these builds mentioned in passing in other parts of the internet stumbling across this huge thread is like an early Christmas gift.


  Happy Holidays!




> I do have a question about the Nuclear Wizard though. Would swapping in three or four levels of Sorcerer by docking three or four levels of Wizard cripple this build in any way? You would have to sacrifice either an ASI or Overchannel, but then you'd have access to some metamagic to improve your nova damage (Empowered Spell would trend the average higher, especially if you're only rolling 1d4 for the whole spell rather than xd4 for each missile). As far as I understand the multiclassing spell progression table, you'd still have the same number of spells available to you since a sorcerer is also a full caster.


I wouldn't recommend it.  If you take it early, you're delaying access to higher level spells known, which is a big deal.  If you take it late, you're only getting your metamagic at 20 and the opportunity cost is Action Surge and the ability to learn 9th level spells (even if you still have a 9th level _slot_).  That's steep.

So yeah, I'd say it would cripple the build to switch out for Sorcerer levels.

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## Corran

@Skylivedk: Open the spoiler at your own risk! :Small Smile: 
*Spoiler: Rambling wildly*
Show




> True. Silly me. Thanks! I'd still probably recommend it for optimization, but that's mostly because Assassin has pretty bad features later on and both Eldritch Smite, Devil's Sight and Improved Pact weapon can add a lot (and so can the spell slots).


We could still use the second slot with something like hunter's mark, hex or a smite spell as necessary for some extra damage. Agreed about the assassin's lvl 9 & 13 features being underwhelming.
*Spoiler: More rambling*
Show

There was an old thread (which I cannot find) that talked about how underappreciated these features are, and there were a few posts that had made me realize that at the hands of some very creative and quick thinking players, these features would be more than enough for the character to have a solid impact. But in the end I agree with you here. Magic makes everything a lot easier and some of the assassin's features almost entirely redundant. Which is a funny thought, cause I can certainly see an argument that the best assassin out there is a wizard with this or that spell selection. While the rogue chassis is nothing to scoff at, I think assassin multiclasses early well enough if you can satisfy the following two conditions:
1) Make sure that cunning action is worth delaying your main class progression by two levels. In essence, you are a ranged (maybe even caster) build with poor or expensive escape options at the minimum (but ideally you also want to somehow build a little more on everything that cunning action offers you, otherwise every non-tank build would dip rogue for it).
2) Make sure that you've got a good amount of dice to double when you'll get surprise (assuming you have improved your chances of surprising enemies; and this is one key element to every such multiclassing, ie make sure to grab tools that will make getting surprise more reliable. While at the same time trying to not turn your build into a one trick pony).

I could perhaps add a third point about making sure that you use your (expertise) skills to the maximum, but most people already think very highly of expertise anyway.





> It does make taking other classes/more assassin levels more attractive though... Ie Assassin to 5, Hexblade 3 
> or 
> Hexblade 1 +  Battle Master 4 for that sweet sweet opening round of 6 attacks while still having ASIs (EA,  Sharpshooter, +2 Dex, XBe)


 I'd probably avoid adding both hexblade and rogue on a build where the main class would be a gloom stalker ranger. They both bring in the extra mobility that an archer (non-revised) ranger would need through cunning action and short rest misty steps, so I would not really want to double down on it (triple down on it if fighting in the dark). Though this is probably not a fair answer, since you are working under the assumption that assassin has to be included and you are focusing on optimizing the first round damage.
*Spoiler: More rambling*
Show

In fact, without doing the math, I am thinking that assassin is a bit unnecessary on a gloom stalker, given that the bulk of the damage comes from combining advantage and shrapshooter with many attacks. Straying from your main class to increase the damage you are at the same time risking bcause of the -5/+10 is a little counterproductive. That said, I'd love to run a gloomstalker17/assasin3 at level 20 some time, cause steel wind strike and assassinate sounds pretty exciting (and possibly effective if you are basically looking for an AoE of sorts instad of focusing down some enemy). I'd value the rogue dip more on a melee non-revised ranger, but I think I prefer the dip in fighter though mainly for action surge (which is useful on someone with decent spells and a strong attack anyway, but the extra synergy with our first round tricks seals it for me; essentially making the gloom stalker an assassin that does not have to depend on all the extra restrictions of assassinate and without running the risk of making a gimmicky build.





> If I expect a lot of dragons Hexblade 5 is still solid. For everything else, probably the Battle Master option with XBE, Devil's Sight and Mask of Many faces of some other utility. Shield is still a great pickup and Hex>Hunter's Mark because of the utility of disadvantage imposed on skill checks with no save


For a gloom stalker 12/ hexblade 5/ assassin 3?
Agreed about ES and flying opponents. I like that we are gaining invisibility through hexblade and that with conjure animals we could put our 3rd level slots to good use (though we are lacking action surge, which I'd want). It sure has better first round nova than other builds, but I am still seeing overlap which I would rather avoid, even at the cost of reducing my first round nova a bit. Devil's sight will be far less needed for a gloomstalker, and while I appreciate the range of a longbow, I think that crossbow expert (along with sharpshooter) is a good feat for gloomstalkers (cause they can easily have advantage against almost everything but some fiends while in the dark). Mask of many faces is great but lacking in charisma will hurt us here (expertise helps, but still). Shield would be ok I guess, since being unseen can allow us to tank a bit every now and then if needed). While there are things a gloomstaler range gets (eg pass without a trace) or wants (eg alert) that are also things an assassin would want, I do think that they don't multiclass all that great (less need for cunning action than other ranged builds, most of the damage comes from flat bonuses) unless we find another source of dice damage (ie the haxblade dip in your case), and at this point we are talking about a build with 3 classes and with a brave investment in each one of these classes. And my 5e experience with multiclassed characters made me wary of such combinations. Personally, I'd just try to use a rogue dip on top of another class which I would intend to advance all the way up to level 17. Assassinate would not punch as much as if I was multiclassing further, but the overall build would be stronger as a whole (cause you are basically a single class character lagging _only_ 3 levels behind) as it would not revolve around just 1 round of combat. And the trick would be how to make the most out of cunning action and how to boost assassinate without overcommitting.


==================================




> I had two things.  :)
> 1) Great job on that Templar of Time that looks like a lot of fun to play.


+1




> 2) Has anyone worked out a multi-class Rogue: Assassin taking advantage of their ridiculous auto-crit function?  This seems like its asking for some multi-attack or bonus damage optimization but I personally have trouble working it into a build due to RP unless you use something like a Paladin of Conquest for the evil bent and the smiting, although I think this could work well with a Hexblade Blade-lock using Eldritch Smite as well.


I made this, which might interest you. Warning, it's a long post. I think it has passed enough time so posting on it would be thread necromancy (so if that's the case, don't post on it). I'll eventually add it here (I have a post reserved), at least when I am not lazy enough to write a small summary highlighting the key points of the build. I was debating myself whether to go with a main whispers bard build instead of hexblade (or even add some bard levels in there), but I ended up rejecting the idea cause I couldn't find a good enough way to do it. But I am mentioning it cause someone else might be able to come up with something that combines assassin and whispers bard effectively.
ps: On a second quick look and after some time has passed since making it, there are a few things that I'd change at first glance (eg lower CON to 13 and bring up INT up to 12, and mess around with the skills a bit, probably ending up replacing acrobatics with athletics and including investigation probably at the cost of arcana -cause I'd rule that studying someone's behavior and mannerisms falls under intelligence, but I digress).

----------


## Skylivedk

> @Skylivedk: Open the spoiler at your own risk!
> SNIP
> 
> For a gloom stalker 12/ hexblade 5/ assassin 3?
> Agreed about ES and flying opponents. I like that we are gaining invisibility through hexblade and that with conjure animals we could put our 3rd level slots to good use (though we are lacking action surge, which I'd want). It sure has better first round nova than other builds, but I am still seeing overlap which I would rather avoid, even at the cost of reducing my first round nova a bit. Devil's sight will be far less needed for a gloomstalker, and while I appreciate the range of a longbow, I think that crossbow expert (along with sharpshooter) is a good feat for gloomstalkers (cause they can easily have advantage against almost everything but some fiends while in the dark). Mask of many faces is great but lacking in charisma will hurt us here (expertise helps, but still). Shield would be ok I guess, since being unseen can allow us to tank a bit every now and then if needed). While there are things a gloomstaler range gets (eg pass without a trace) or wants (eg alert) that are also things an assassin would want, I do think that they don't multiclass all that great (less need for cunning action than other ranged builds, most of the damage comes from flat bonuses) unless we find another source of dice damage (ie the haxblade dip in your case), and at this point we are talking about a build with 3 classes and with a brave investment in each one of these classes. And my 5e experience with multiclassed characters made me wary of such combinations. Personally, I'd just try to use a rogue dip on top of another class which I would intend to advance all the way up to level 17. Assassinate would not punch as much as if I was multiclassing further, but the overall build would be stronger as a whole (cause you are basically a single class character lagging _only_ 3 levels behind) as it would not revolve around just 1 round of combat. And the trick would be how to make the most out of cunning action and how to boost assassinate without overcommitting.[/SPOILER]
> 
> ==================================
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for the thorough answer. I don't fear the overlaps too much. In many of the cases (i.e. Devil's Sight) you can either choose to ignore it or the abilities stack more than they overlap.

I do think you are undervaluing Hide and Disengage/Dash a bit. Of course, if you think XBE only that makes sense since the Bonus Action is very very cluttered (Curse, Hex/HM, XBE Shot, Rogue BA, Misty Step). My own experience with the Assassin was at release, pre-gloomstalker and Dip-Blade. I used longbow. When I in early tier 2 tracked a corrupt official as he was in the town market (applied Hunter's Mark) and took up a position on a nearby (450 feet away) roof to deal more than 125 damage (can't remember if that was with or without the poison), the DM was stunned.

Bonus Action:Hide was key for the plan (while in execution, winning Initiative was enough). It took less than 10 seconds, the quarry never had a reaction. Apparently a very powerful wizard. Pass without Trace and disguise and my sniper disappeared without a problem.

Assassin is definitely a lot more fun if you have a campaign where you can study the quarry and set up your attacks. 

Also, I love wonky multi-classes. A lot of people seem to give points to single-classes or "clean" builds. I love the quirky and at a glance unplayable builds that somehow work (not that the Fighter/Gloomstalker belongs there; it is straight power).

And I know how it is to not wrap up a build to post in this thread. I have many builds half-done. They usually have some fun interaction with a couple of abilities, competition for action economy (I like having buttons, many buttons!, in combat), quite a lot of creativity-dependent utility and some combos that are insanely strong for when a wild Ancient Red Dragon appears.

... I just never dedicate the time to doing all the sweet write-ups of the DPR and play-by-play. I have a lot of respect for those who do. My SkyNet post took FOREVER (also because I iz idjit and wrote some of it on phone), and I'm not sure the joy I create for others is worth the extra time it takes for me.

----------


## wjpennington

Question; If a Bard using the Magical Inspiration ability from the Unearthed Arcana Class Variants were to help the Nuclear Wizard, that inspiration dice modifier to damage would effect every magic missile, correct?

----------


## LudicSavant

> Question; If a Bard using the Magical Inspiration ability from the Unearthed Arcana Class Variants were to help the Nuclear Wizard, that inspiration dice modifier to damage would effect every magic missile, correct?


Looks like it.  UA is scary.

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## ftafp

I've posted this elsewhere before but I'm still looking for ways to perfect this build

A Mark of Hospitality Halfling Life Cleric 1 / Artificer 11 can create a spell storing item of Goodberry that heals up to 400 hp. If you go artillerist or take the boros background you can instead create a spell storing item of scorching ray that can be cast 10 times in a single round by tiny servants. If you go alchemist and dip 3 levels into tomelock, you can get aspect of the moon and brew 18 potions a night in lieu of sleep.

If you refluff the goodberries as dishes featuring goodberries, refluff the potions as, healing snacks, refluff the tiny servants sharing a spell-storing item of scorching ray as animated slices of birthday cake sharing a birthday candle of doom you've got 15 / 20 ingredients ready for the ultimate iron chef build.

Well that or you could build a chronomancer and refluff the time-delayed spell bead as a buff pastry (or as I like to call it, a HASTEry)

----------


## Poe

I really want to create a minotaur character, using Ravnica minotaurs, and wondering how you would go about it? At this stage, he's still kinda murky. I have had heaps of ideas, but many of them just don't seem to work well together. I originally thought of a monk-barbarian, but that doesn't seem to work. There is fighter-barbarian, paladin-barbarian, something with bards. Nothing really seems to have a lot of synergy though. The campaign will be starting at level 6 and progress to around level 12, so it needs to be something that is designed to come online at an early level. I find the usual vhuman with sentinel, GWM and PAM gets a little tiresome.

The main things are I'd like to capitalise on their high strength and their racial abilities to push things around. The character will be a tank, but he's someone who ideally takes the pressure off other characters, so ways to draw attention to him, or protect other PCs by being near them would be ideal.

My current thinking is barbarian ancestral guardian, fighter battlemaster. That kinda feels a little boring, but useful.

I am also starting to think of making him mounted, so maybe paladin-barbarian ancestral guardian would work well.

My original inspiration was a bit like Teal'C (I'm not sure if you ever saw Stargate SG1), so strong, endurable and spiritual (so str, con, wis), but that's open to change. I'd rather not just put everything in my physical atts and have the mental ones low. The attribute values we have to work on are 16, 15, 14, 12, 10, 8 before modifiers.


I'd love to see what you can do with both a mounted and non-mounted character!

Thanks a lot. :)

Poe/Milan

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## Evaar

My first thought for making use of a 10 foot shove ability is Polearm Master plus Sentinel. Knock a thing away, make it hard to get back to you. Theres some problem there, though, with redundant bonus action attack options. 

Next thought is Oath of Conquest Paladin. When you get the aura reducing enemy speeds to 0, that ability to shove makes you the master of the battlefield. But Conquest typically pushes Charisma first, so your stats arent perfect. 

If you can find a way to pick up Spike Growth (or just be in a party with someone who has it), you add free damage to your shove.

----------


## Poe

Yeah, it seems like it is very hard to optimise a minotaur to make the most of its innate abilities. Much less a cavalry minotaur. :/

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## Citadel97501

> I've posted this elsewhere before but I'm still looking for ways to perfect this build
> 
> A Mark of Hospitality Halfling Life Cleric 1 / Artificer 11 can create a spell storing item of Goodberry that heals up to 400 hp. If you go artillerist or take the boros background you can instead create a spell storing item of scorching ray that can be cast 10 times in a single round by tiny servants. If you go alchemist and dip 3 levels into tomelock, you can get aspect of the moon and brew 18 potions a night in lieu of sleep.
> 
> If you refluff the goodberries as dishes featuring goodberries, refluff the potions as, healing snacks, refluff the tiny servants sharing a spell-storing item of scorching ray as animated slices of birthday cake sharing a birthday candle of doom you've got 15 / 20 ingredients ready for the ultimate iron chef build.
> 
> Well that or you could build a chronomancer and refluff the time-delayed spell bead as a buff pastry (or as I like to call it, a HASTEry)


That definitely looks interesting, although aren't those goodberry uses only 4 hp per action to feed the good berry?  This seems to make that more of a between rest effect?  That being said, I was really looking at a mix of Celestial Warlock & Alchemist because I thought it looked like a lot of fun for a support character.  That 1 level dip into Life Cleric looks great, although I think if your going to do the life cleric dip you might as well go all in on potions & divine energy with an Artificer: Alchemist 13 + Divine Sorcerer 3 + Celestial Tome-lock 3, Life Cleric 1.  

Reasonably MAD: 2 casting traits to 20, and the requisite 14's to Dexterity & Constitution.  (3 feats from Warlock for a total of 6 attribute points)
Proficiency: Light, Medium, & Heavy Armor, Shield, Simple Weapons, all Crossbows
2: 5th level spells: (Quickened: Armor of Agathys should be one?)
3: 4th & 3rd level spells
1st & 2nd level slots spent for extra potions & sorcery points.
2 random +10 chosen Potions not even using any real coffee lock abuse...that is just taking one short rest between making some potions.  
2: 2nd level Warlock slots
Cantrips: Too Many: 16?
Invocations: Aspect of the Moon, Agonizing Blast?
Infusions: 8 known, 4 active
Spell Storing Item: I really suggest an offensive one as your healing is already absurd.  

Healing:
-4d6 non-spell healing from Warlock although this requires a long rest to recover.
-2d4+9 from a Warlock Healing Word, or 2d8+9 from a Warlock Cure Light Wounds.
-Once per short rest: 2d4 to save or attack roll from Favored of the Gods.
-Alchemist Healing Words: 5th level slot is 3d4+12 per target with one more getting another 5.

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## LudicSavant

Hey Poe!  I saw your PM!   :Small Smile: 




> I really want to create a minotaur character, using Ravnica minotaurs, and wondering how you would go about it? At this stage, he's still kinda murky. I have had heaps of ideas, but many of them just don't seem to work well together. I originally thought of a monk-barbarian, but that doesn't seem to work. There is fighter-barbarian, paladin-barbarian, something with bards. Nothing really seems to have a lot of synergy though. The campaign will be starting at level 6 and progress to around level 12, so it needs to be something that is designed to come online at an early level. I find the usual vhuman with sentinel, GWM and PAM gets a little tiresome.
> 
> The main things are I'd like to capitalise on their high strength and their racial abilities to push things around. The character will be a tank, but he's someone who ideally takes the pressure off other characters, so ways to draw attention to him, or protect other PCs by being near them would be ideal.
> 
> My current thinking is barbarian ancestral guardian, fighter battlemaster. That kinda feels a little boring, but useful.
> 
> I am also starting to think of making him mounted, so maybe paladin-barbarian ancestral guardian would work well.
> 
> My original inspiration was a bit like Teal'C (I'm not sure if you ever saw Stargate SG1), so strong, endurable and spiritual (so str, con, wis), but that's open to change. I'd rather not just put everything in my physical atts and have the mental ones low. The attribute values we have to work on are 16, 15, 14, 12, 10, 8 before modifiers.
> ...


Unfortunately, I don't think you're missing much when you say there's not a ton of super juicy synergy for the minotaur.  And I am not familiar with the character of Teal'C.

That said, let's take a look at what the race offers and see how we can make the best of it:

- *+2 Str / +1 Con* means that (if you're using point buy) you want to pair it with Fighter or Barbarian, and not much else (for Paladins, I highly value Cha).  The ability to start with 17 Str means you can even out to 18 with Heavy Armor Master or Tavern Brawler if you're so inclined.

- *1d6+Str horns*. which can count as melee weapons or unarmed attacks.  The best thing I can think of to do with these is to hit someone while grappling and using a shield.  Unfortunately, it still has some downsides (that something like a Simic Hybrid or Loxodon Grappler wouldn't have), which is that you can't use your magic/buffed weapon, and the only type of damage worse than nonmagical BPS is Poison.

- *Goring Rush*:  The best thing I can think of to do with this is to make it less likely that you'll lose your rage from being kited as a Barbarian.  Still, the bonus action requirement means you can't do it on the turn you enter rage, which is the most important time to be able to close with the enemy.  The fact that you have to use your nonmagical 1d6+Str horns is a disadvantage, as is the fact that you can't grapple or shove with this attack.

- *Hammering Horns*:  Another bonus action, this one is probably going to see the most use comboing with _other_ people in your party casting hazard effects with an "enters or starts turn" clause (or other things like Spike Growth).

*Ancestral Guardian* seems like a good choice for them that works well with the tools they offer.  As an AG, landing just one weapon attack is enough to mark a foe and maintain your rage, so Goring Rush might occasionally help.  And your horns mean you can be a shield grappler without needing to invest in Tavern Brawler, kind of like the Simic Hybrid build I posted earlier in the thread (though you'll lack some of the Simic's advantages).   And hammering horns lets you rack up some damage with team combos, plus helps you disengage from melee (which is something that the Ancestral Guardian actually likes to do, it's why they often take Mobile).

Basically as an AG, you make allies even tankier than raging Barbarians with respect to marked targets, so it's useful to be able to Disengage without eating OAs after marking someone.  Then you can wander over and lock down some second guy with a grapple, and start bashing him in the face with your horns while still having the benefit of a shield (which I personally think is a better fighting style for AG than GWM).  That sort of thing.

As for investing in Str/Con/Wis and having a spiritual side, that sounds like an Ancestral Guardian taking Res(Wis) to me.  Not sure how it would match up with other aspects of Teal'C since, again, I'm not that familiar with the character.

----------


## Poe

For some reason I couldn't include your quotes in my message, LudicSavant. :/

Yeah, to be totally honest I'm very disappointed with the way they made minotaurs. They could have been a really cool race, but there just doesn't seem to be much way to get one that isn't a standard fighter or barbarian. At least not one that's competitive with a lot of other races. In some ways, I am thinking of just reskinning a different race, but I'm not sure yet. They don't even get powerful build, which is ridiculous.

My starting array (which we all start with) are 16, 15, 14, 12, 10 and 8. So I could have an 18 strength and 16 constitution right off the bat, but if I wanted paladin, I'd need to assign the 14 to that. Not ideal.

Yeah, hammering horns would definitely be pretty useful there!

I think battlemaster/ancestral guardian is probably the only thing that'll work well with this race. I would love the ability to have an immortal steed that can disappear when we enter dungeons, but taking paladin or bard and the charisma requirement just for that really can't be justified.

Thanks :)

----------


## Poe

Hmmm... after reading your edit about ancestral guardian, it started to sound even more appealing... :)

Part of my thinking with the horns is to push someone away (a shame horns can't be used for a prone shove), thereby marking them, but since they're gone I can run off and get into combat with someone else. Or else run back to someone I need to defend. Or just hit, break off with mobile, engage someone else, then push them over then run off some more. ;)

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## LudicSavant

> For some reason I couldn't include your quotes in my message, LudicSavant. :/


Try clicking "Reply with quote" under my post, or typing 

[quote="LudicSavant"] (text to be quoted) [/quote]

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## Poe

> Try clicking "Reply with quote" under my post, or typing


It says that I can't post links until after 10 posts. Although, I'm probably close to 10 posts now! :D

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## ftafp

> That definitely looks interesting, although aren't those goodberry uses only 4 hp per action to feed the good berry?  This seems to make that more of a between rest effect?  That being said, I was really looking at a mix of Celestial Warlock & Alchemist because I thought it looked like a lot of fun for a support character.  That 1 level dip into Life Cleric looks great, although I think if your going to do the life cleric dip you might as well go all in on potions & divine energy with an Artificer: Alchemist 13 + Divine Sorcerer 3 + Celestial Tome-lock 3, Life Cleric 1.  
> 
> Reasonably MAD: 2 casting traits to 20, and the requisite 14's to Dexterity & Constitution.  (3 feats from Warlock for a total of 6 attribute points)
> Proficiency: Light, Medium, & Heavy Armor, Shield, Simple Weapons, all Crossbows
> 2: 5th level spells: (Quickened: Armor of Agathys should be one?)
> 3: 4th & 3rd level spells
> 1st & 2nd level slots spent for extra potions & sorcery points.
> 2 random +10 chosen Potions not even using any real coffee lock abuse...that is just taking one short rest between making some potions.  
> 2: 2nd level Warlock slots
> ...


Sorcerer is a good choice, though we seem to be compounding on the healing when we more or less have it down. Also, because this is a coffeelock build that also builds up normal spellcasting slots, I have to wonder if maybe we're going about this wrong. Hospitality is a charisma race after all. What if instead of Artificer being the main class we focused on warlock?

Mark of Hospitality
Life Cleric 1/Alchemist Artificer 3/??? Sorcerer 3/??? Tome Warlock 13
By 20th level you're churning out 120 sorcery points per long rest, which is equivalent to an 18th level caster with a lot more flexibility. None of those spells would be above level 5, but you could have as many spells slots as a 20th level half-caster, churn out 20 potions, 200 hp worth of goodberries, and still have enough 14 points left over to quicken for days while you use your goodberris and alchemist potions for healing and buffs.

The question is how do you progress this monstrosity of a build?

----------


## Citadel97501

> Sorcerer is a good choice, though we seem to be compounding on the healing when we more or less have it down. Also, because this is a coffeelock build that also builds up normal spellcasting slots, I have to wonder if maybe we're going about this wrong. Hospitality is a charisma race after all. What if instead of Artificer being the main class we focused on warlock?
> 
> Mark of Hospitality
> Life Cleric 1/Alchemist Artificer 3/??? Sorcerer 3/??? Tome Warlock 13
> By 20th level you're churning out 120 sorcery points per long rest, which is equivalent to an 18th level caster with a lot more flexibility. None of those spells would be above level 5, but you could have as many spells slots as a 20th level half-caster, churn out 20 potions, 200 hp worth of goodberries, and still have enough 14 points left over to quicken for days while you use your goodberris and alchemist potions for healing and buffs.
> 
> The question is how do you progress this monstrosity of a build?


I would definitely say we start as Artificer, as your going straight into your role getting your defenses - Medium Armor + INT/CON saves, Weapon training, Infusions & Elixers.  Then applying all of the further enhancements to your build through the other stuff.  Although if your starting at level 1 you might want to squeeze in the 4th level of Artificer first just for the ASI, as otherwise its going to take forever.  So something like this.  

Starting at level 7 or lower: Artificer 4 - Life Cleric 1 - Celestial Warlock 4 - Divine Soul Sorcerer 3 - Celestial Warlock 5 through 12
Starting at level 8 or higher: Artificer 3 - Life Cleric 1 - Celestial Warlock 3 - Divine Soul Sorcerer 3 - Celestial Warlock 4 through 13

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## ftafp

Reposting this from the throwdown threads because this is the end result of the discussion. I hope you're happy what resulted because I sure am. Obscenely.




> *The Hex Spoon: AKA The Only Hearth Still Burning*
> 
> *Level 20 level split:* Life Cleric 1 / Hexblade of the Tome 11 / Shadow Sorcerer 5 / Alchemist 3
> 
> *Race:* Mark of Hospitality Halfling
> 
> *Stats:* Str 8 Dex (12 + 2) Con 10 Int 13 Wis 14 Cha (15 + 1)
> 
> *Background:* Acolyte
> ...

----------


## LudicSavant

> Reposting this from the throwdown threads because this is the end result of the discussion. I hope you're happy what resulted because I sure am. Obscenely.


What are the ASIs/feats?

----------


## ftafp

> What are the ASIs/feats?


ASIs are Max Charisma and War Caster. If you don't want to use a dragonmark, go V. Human and take Magic Initiate: Druid to get Goodberry as well as shape water and mold earth. This is a purely charisma build starting at level 2

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## DevanAvalon

Really don't want this thread to die, so uh... Any builders want to take a crack at maybe doing a "monster trapper" build? the goal being to capture monsters alive for whatever reason?

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## Civis Mundi

> Really don't want this thread to die, so uh... Any builders want to take a crack at maybe doing a "monster trapper" build? the goal being to capture monsters alive for whatever reason?


I'll bite. I've been playing around with the new _summon_ spells from this UA. Specifically, I think _summon undead spirit_ has enormous potential, though it's likely to get nerfed. This build also utilizes some Invocations from the Class Variants UA.

There's a lot of different ways to go in terms of race and subclass.

Races: Almost any +CHA race will do nicely. I think the best choices are Aasimar (Protector or Scourge) is likely the best bet for damage, Changeling for max CHA and Shapechanger, Half-Drow for Half-Elf stats with free Drow spells, Tiefling for similar reasons, Ghallanda Halfling for _aid_ as a spell known, or Warforged for extra survivability.

Subclasses: Archfey might actually be the most fitting for this challenge, since _sleep_ will be a great tool for knocking monsters out without trapping them. It'll work a little like Pokemon--get them real low on HP, then cast _sleep_for a surefire knockout. But I went with Celestial for a more support-heavy build, and because I like the flavor. Plus, Ghallanda Halfling also offers _sleep_.

I went into a ton of different racial options you might use. Warforged is probably the weakest of those listed, but some of my favorite flavor. I'd build a Warforged version of this build as "Reliquary," a divine machine hosting the remains of saints and summoning their spirits. I think the optimal option is the Ghallanda Halfling--_aid_ is just really nice to have.

*Jerome Gravedew, Keeper of the Grateful Dead:* Ghallanda Halfling Celestial Warlock 10

Stats: STR 8 / DEX 16 / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 12 / CHA 20 _(4th and 8th level ASI go into CHA)_

Invocations: Agonizing Blast, Investment of the Chain Master (Class Variant UA), Gift of the Everloving Ones, Voice of the Chain Master, Chain Master's Fury

Spells: _eldritch blast_ + cantrips of choice (_mind sliver_ from another UA takes this to the next level), _armor of agathys_, _cure wounds_, _sleep_, _aid_, _invisibility_, _revivify_, _summon undead spirit_, _dimension door_, _guardian of faith_, _hold monster_, _wall of light_

Jerry Gravedew has a sprite familiar with Pact of the Chain. The sprite spends most of its time invisible. In combat, you use your bonus action to command your Sprite to attack from invisibility. It should have Advantage from attacking from hiding with a +6 to hit with its longbow. On a hit, the target must make a CON save or be poisoned for 1 minute. For extra fun, if they fail the save by 5, they fall unconscious, or until it takes damage or a creature takes an action to shake it awake. Normally this a DC 10 save, but with Chain Master's Investment, it uses your spell DC instead. If _mind sliver_ is available, this is just insane.

Now, this maneuver is more or less safe for the sprite depending on how your DM runs Initiative. Technically, the sprite acts on its own initiative, but most every DM I've played with would rather spare themselves the headache. Instead, they tend to allow the familiar to act on your initiative. This isn't essential for the combo to work, but it does help. If the sprite gets to act on or just after your turn, they can use their own action to turn invisible after you use your bonus action to command them to make one attack. Handily, Chain Master's Fury does not require the familiar's action to use.

What's great about this is it doesn't even require any limited resources to use.

Even if you don't knock your target out automatically, you can send your Putrid Spirit after any poisoned targets, granting you two extra attempts to paralyze. Presumably, you could order them to attack non-lethally, just as you could decide your own attacks are non-lethal.

Most everything else is gravy, but _aid_ and _guardian of faith_'s 8 hour durations make them great with Warlock spell slots. _Aid_, _cure wounds_, and _revivify_ make for a decent support character, especially combined with Healing Light and Celestial Radiance. Inspiring Leader might be a fun feat to pick down the line. _Hold monster_, _wall of light_ and _sleep_ are some more great tools to capture creatures, especially if they're immune or resistant to poison. _Summon undead spirit_ is also great for scouting with the Ghostly Spirit, and the Skeletal Spirit is great for damage.

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## Lavaeolus

> Really don't want this thread to die, so uh... Any builders want to take a crack at maybe doing a "monster trapper" build? the goal being to capture monsters alive for whatever reason?


These are just some first thoughts rather than a full build, but to my mind, this character has two things they need to 'do':

*Render the enemy non-hostile or (unrecoverably) incapacitated.* Honestly, the simplest, all-else-fails way to do this is to just knock them out with a melee attack. Melee spell attacks work too, so there's a lot of flexibility here. There are other ways of rendering an enemy unconscious -- drow poison, sleep / eyebite spell, suffocate them somehow, have a sprite help you -- but nothing's wrong with the simplest solution. Still, if you could use any of the others to bring a fight to a close early, hey. Plus it'd be _thematic_.

*But...* Where this might be a problem is the rare situation where a creature is immune to being unconscious. This is unfortunate. The cleanest way? Charm them somehow, either magically or not. Otherwise? This is a bit more DM-dependent territory. I could, at least, consider allowing you to apply manacles or tie up a creature as an action, provided they were incapacitated and no one else was attacking you.

Maybe bring some spells that can incapacitate, then? Most immune to unconscious are immune to paralysis and the like, though. Lure them into an actual trap you've set up in advance? (Please don't look at the cage mysteriously hanging up in the sky by a rope.) Of course, this is a pretty niche situation. Permanently containing most of these if they're unwilling is likely going to be a pain in any case, so I can't fault a monster trapper who just doesn't make the attempt.

If we do take them on, our best bet is to eschew fighting them altogether. Resilient Sphere or Polymorph are good temporary solutions, which may work if you can offload them somewhere or have somewhere to put them. (Though the Sphere only lasts a minute.) Otherwise, high-level magic is the best way: Scatter to teleport them into cages; Demiplane, Force Cage or Imprisonment to outright capture them with magic.*Prevent an enemy from escaping or fleeing.* Fun fact: a character who is solely incapacitated can still move. More than that, some enemies could conceivably just leave if they realise a fight's not going their way. Once the enemy's down, this is less of a concern (beyond a DM who's harsh about them trying to escape while being transported somewhere). You could, I suppose, be really fast and perceptive, hoping to use that to make fleeing untenable. Or you could reduce their movement somehow, either with magic or grappling. Or you could crowd control with spells. If you don't want to do any of that, you could try tracking them somehow.

Now, I'm reading this in more a 'animal capturer' than 'bounty hunter' type thing, and to be honest, most of the time none of what I said'll come up. Anyone who is decent in melee and brings along some rope should be a pretty good trapper, methinks. My first thought was some sort of Pied Piper-esque Bard, putting their Expertise in Animal Handling and maybe Athletics. My second thought was just to mix in some Paladin to increase their melee capabilities.

Paladin 2 / Bard X is good enough on its own merits, but for a more significant Paladin multiclass I could see, from a thematic level, Ancients Paladins or Glory Paladins having a reason to want to capture creatures alive to protect and/or showcase. The Ancients Paladin might need to twist their oath a bit to justify it, but I think you could tie it together. The Glory Paladin might just be, well, a gloryhound. See the chimera! Stay back, kids; it _does_ bite!

Can't really beat a Wizard at just magically trapping their enemies, though. But the higher-level stuff can be easier said than done.

----------


## Klorox

> Alright, let's build a Nuclear Wizard!
> 
> At Lyracian's request, I'll be providing multiple versions using different races.
> 
> Anyways, this is a strong one, so be aware of what level of optimization your group's comfortable with.  You can afford to tone it down a bit and still have a highly competent character.
> 
> *What's a Nuclear Wizard?*
> To my knowledge the term nuclear wizard was coined here as a name for builds that take advantage of the synergy between Empowered Evocation and Hexblades Curse, which (among other things) transforms the humble Magic Missile into one of the best-scaling single target damage options in the game. 
> 
> ...


I think I might be having a slow morning, so could you please explain to me how to use oil with Create Bonfire, and what it does?

Thanks!

----------


## LudicSavant

> I think I might be having a slow morning, so could you please explain to me how to use oil with Create Bonfire, and what it does?
> 
> Thanks!


Have a familiar or unseen servant or the like spread it on the ground where you cast or will cast Create Bonfire.  It is now a more dangerous square of area denial / hazard.

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## Klorox

> Have a familiar or unseen servant or the like spread it on the ground where you cast or will cast Create Bonfire.  It is now a more dangerous square of area denial / hazard.


Ok, but are you basically saying the oil spreads the bonfire spell, or is there some mechanical benefit Im missing? 

It sounds like youre making a cantrip well twice as well, which is awesome.

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## Klorox

Also, @ludicsavant, does this build still function reasonably well as a control wizard? Im thinking you need to do more than just cause damage all the time.

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## Citadel97501

> Ok, but are you basically saying the oil spreads the bonfire spell, or is there some mechanical benefit Im missing? 
> 
> It sounds like youre making a cantrip well twice as well, which is awesome.


*Not really, here is the mechanical breakdown using the oil rules on page 152 of the PHB. * 
1) Oil can be used as an improvised weapon, and if you hit they get soaked in it.  
2) The oil is lit by the target or area taking any fire damage, within a minute.  
3) Once the oil is lit the target takes 5 fire damage for 2 rounds.  
4) If an area is covered in oil and then lit, anyone entering the area or ending their turn in it will take 5 fire damage.  
(Note: This is for one pint of oil, and you should be able to make bigger areas with more oil flasks, or alchemy jugs.)

*This makes me think of trying an arsonist build :)*
Tiefling: Fire resistance just in case, and its normal benefits.  Flames of Phlegethos is also cool here.  
-Artificer 3 - Alchemist, Alchemy Jug & Bag of Holding 
-Warlock 3 - Pact of the Chain: Imp, with Repelling blast & Gift of the Ever Living ones (Maximized self healing?).
-Alchemy Jug: So that is 2 uses of an oil flask per day.  Sadly you can't spend multiple infusions to give your party extra uses of this, but it is entirely possible to store it up and give it to your familiar.  Its also relatively cheap at 1 sp per use.  

The imp has immunity to fire, flight, and invisibility at will, and can carry up to 22 flasks (500 with the bag of holding, that is only 50 gold!), so you simply use him for oil dispersal.  If he somehow gets hit or drops them or has to stay in the square he is immune.  It only takes his action if he actually throws a flask of oil, and would be better off just spilling it over suitable areas which only costs an item use.

You can also make A LOT of the alchemy potions, although you will miss out on the true Coffee-Lock, Aspect of the Moon + Alchemist.  
-Don't bother with this concept with certain modules, _(Gives hateful glare towards Descent into Avernus...my poor Celestial Warlock with staff of the adder.)_

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## LudicSavant

> Ok, but are you basically saying the oil spreads the bonfire spell, or is there some mechanical benefit Im missing?


No.  It just makes an oil fire square per pg152 of the PHB.




> Also, @ludicsavant, does this build still function reasonably well as a control wizard? Im thinking you need to do more than just cause damage all the time.


Yes.  It is _extremely_ effective as a control wizard.

Thinking of Evokers as "just doing damage all the time" is like thinking of Clerics as "just healing all the time."  They actually have quite a few tricks up their sleeve that improve their ability to control the field.  Sculpt Spells does some interesting things with wall and hazard spells, for example.  You can even straight up tank with that build if you want to; you have an Eldritch-Knight-like AC and way more slots to burn on way better defensive and lockdown spells, including goodies like Armor of Agathys.

The thing that makes the Nuclear Wizard so good is that it does not trade versatility for raw power.  It's just strong all around.  The options it takes help just about everything a Wizard does, not just its damage.

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## Klorox

Thanks guys. 

Ive always had it in my head that evokers  are so one dimensional and Im really glad to hear thats not the case. 

I have a new campaign starting soon and Im really struggling to decide what to play. 

TY for all these great builds!

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## Hairfish

> Thanks guys. 
> 
> Ive always had it in my head that evokers are so one dimensional and Im really glad to hear thats not the case.


I'm not sure I grasp where this line of thinking is coming from. Unlike every other caster (and half-caster) class, the wizard is the _only_ one whose potential spell list isn't altered by their subclass. An illusionist, a transmuter, and an evoker have exactly the same spells to choose from.

Any one-dimensionality on the part of a wizard PC is entirely the fault of the player. With the exception of a DM having house rules that restrict spell list access, I guess.




> I have a new campaign starting soon and Im really struggling to decide what to play. 
> 
> TY for all these great builds!


I gave the arcana cleric build in the OP a whirl and had a blast. I went tabaxi instead of v.human and just did dex-based attacks with a dagger + BB/GFB in lieu of picking up shillelagh, so I was a bit less effective in damage dealing. However, the racial double-move ability was great for first-round formation busting with spirit guardians. And chasing down bosses after they'd eaten enough smites from the paladin.

----------


## Evaar

> I'm not sure I grasp where this line of thinking is coming from.


Because it's how folks have been trained to think. Keep in mind most people skim the rulebook, myself included, and may not fully grasp all the implications of what they're reading. Evoker intuitively suggests you're going to use Evocation spells, which are mostly the blow stuff up spells. So your first impression would be that it's the blow stuff up subclass. And the features seem at first glance to be largely based around blowing stuff up better.

And like, look at the first couple sentences about Evocation from the Wizard guide on this forum and linked in the pinned thread:



> Boooooom! This is when you don't want to play a sorcerer but still just kinda want to kill stuff.


So if you look at all that and don't think about how you can subvert that, your first impression is that it's the basic wizard subclass that blows stuff up. Much like the Champion is the fighter who hits stuff more good.

It's contributions from folks like Ludic and others who can really broaden horizons. Otherwise unless you work hard to really analyze this stuff on your own and get into the nitty gritty of the rules and strategy, you're probably going to assume that the thing does what it says on the tin.

----------


## Kvard51

I've been theory-crafting a build I think looks fun.  As I'm about to get a chance to play it (from level 1), I thought I'd share it with the Playground.  Feel free to use, abuse, or make it better.  I give you:

*The Skill Monkey's Country Cousin*


_Tabaxi Rogue (Scout)12/Warlock (Raven Queen) 3/Bard (Lore) 4/Ranger 1_

OK, the point of the build is to be more of a Wilderness Skill Monkey.  Background-wise, take one that fits your RP ideas, but try to make sure it doesn't have Deception/Persuasion/Nature/Survival, because you will pick those up later as class features.  

Another important consideration is when to MC (or IF, when it comes to the Ranger level).  In my mind, the best way to do this is 1st level in Rogue for all the skills, 2nd and 3rd in Warlock for the Raven (to make your perception beast) and Beguiling influence for two more skills (Deception/Persuasion), then take two more levels in Rogue to get into Scout and grab Survival and Nature (w/ functional Expertise).  After that, take the Rogue and Bard levels as you see fit.  I'd go Rogue 4 for the ASI, then start Bard.  The Ranger level is an optional one.  If you prefer another ASI/Feat, go Warlock 4.  If you actually have exploration or a lot of difficult terrain battles, the Ranger level can really help with those.

So anyway, the actual build:

Rogue 1 - Remember that Tabaxi get's Prof in Perception and Stealth, so choose 4 other skills (not Survival/Nature/Deception/Persuasion),  I like Expertise in Perception and Stealth here, but you might want yours in Thieves' Tools.

Warlock (Raven Queen) 1 - You get your Raven with all it's Perception bonuses and scouting ability.  It can also provide Disadvantage for your SA.

Warlock (Raven Queen) 2 - Invocations.  Grab Beguiling Influence to add Prof in Deception and Persuasion.  I like Beast Speech here, also, as it fits the flavor.  But your mileage may vary, depending on the campaign you are in.  

Rogue 2 - Cunning Action

Rogue 3 - Take the Scout Sub-class, you add Nature and Survival w/ functional Expertise here (same thing, just not so named).  You also get your first increase to Sneak Attack and a great Movement buff.

Rogue 4 - Time for an ASI/Feat.  This is a great spot, as you can pump your Dex or add a feat.  I like the new UA feat, Eldritch Adept, here.  You will never gain another invocation through levels, so this is nice if there is something you really want.  If not, Bump Dex.  At this point, you have Prof in 12 total skills w/ Expertise in 4 of them.

Bard 1 - OK, this is a very flexible level.  I take Bard 1 here, but you may find you need more damage.  If so, take Rogue 5 to get to 3d6 SA.  Alternatively, you may need the Ranger level if you are dealing with a lot of wilderness exploration.  You could even grab your other Warlock levels, for another Feat or ASI.  But w/ Bard 1, we get a little more spellcasting and Bardic Inspiration.  Remember to grab things that improve your support role, because your CHA isn't high enough to expect to win many saves.

Bard 2 - If you went Rogue 5 last level, go ahead and take 6 for more Expertise.  But you gain that next level w/ Bard 3, anyway.  So Bard 2 here, primarily for Jack of All Trades.  Now you are at least functional at every skill check.  You also gain Song of Healing, which will help your party w/ heals even if it is a small amount.

Bard 3 - OK, you have a choice here w/ sub-class.  In the description I chose Lore Bard, but Eloquence is pretty amazing here, too.  Flexibility vs. Focus.  Lore offers 3 more skills, giving us Prof in 15 of the 18 total skills and Expertise in 6 of them (5 if you chose Thieves' Tools).  But Eloquence adds a lot of power to your Deception and Persuasion by making it impossible to roll below a 10 on those checks.  Both Cutting Words and Unsettling Words are decent Bonus-Action debuffs, so go with whichever school makes more sense to your game.

Bard 4 - Get that ASI/Feat.  I like Prodigy, if your DM will allow a Tabaxi to take a Racial Feat.  If not, you can take Skilled to add the final three skills to your Prof list.  Or max Dex.  Or add a Fighting Style.  Or more Spells.  Or whatever.  You know the drill.

Rogue 5 - SA 3d6 and Uncanny Dodge.

Rogue 6 - Expertise for two more skills.  You could have proficiency in 16 skills w/ Expertise in 9 of them (if your DM let you take Prodigy) or Prof in all 18 w/ Expertise in 8 (w/ Skilled)  W/ Jack of All Trades, you  are more than functional in all skills at this point.  (If you took Eloquence, you have less total skills, but more expertises).

From here, it's however you want it.  I like to get Warlock 3 so I can add a Pact Boon (Tome for more utility, Chain for a powerful familar that can help in many ways to go with your Raven, or even Blade for for never being disarmed.  I guess Talisman could help with your skills if you took Eloquence and/or Prodigy and feel like you need those last few skills to have a better chance of success.  Obviously, if you plan to skip Ranger, this is a good time for Warlock 4 for another ASI/Feat.  Then finish out w/ Rogue to at least 11 for Reliable Talent.  I prefer 12 for that final ASI/Feat.  Just another choice w/ regard to your Ranger level, or really anything you qualify for here.

Anyway, I think this can be a fun, flavorful support build that isn't totally gimped for damage (6d6 SA), particularly for a wilderness campaign.  

Do your thing, GitP.

----------


## Miele

> Thanks guys. 
> 
> Ive always had it in my head that evokers  are so one dimensional and Im really glad to hear thats not the case. 
> 
> I have a new campaign starting soon and Im really struggling to decide what to play. 
> 
> TY for all these great builds!


I'm currently playing an evoker Nuclear Wizard (lock1/wiz5 right now): I have Magic Missile, Thunderwave, Fireball and the 2 cantrips Create Bonfire and Toll the Dead. Every other spell is either for buffing or for control. I'm a firm believer in the best form of Crowd Control (death), but I don't need a hundred tools to deliver it: single target, multi target, at will. Sculpt spells in my group is immensely useful: I run with a battlemaster, a barbarian, a rogue and a champion (I'm lucky the ranger was nice enough to stay ranged).

I'd like to have a few more spells to scribe, but that's in the realm of what my DM will give me: consider he just dropped us almost naked on an island hundreds of kilometers from civilization, without any gear but a single item (I chose my spell focus!). He didn't allow me the spellbook, he gave me the possibility to recover one spell/day by scribing it somehwhere: I made ink with water and coal and started tatooing my lovely gnome body  :Small Big Grin:  After 3 weeks I'm back to full power, but it's going to be hard to find a new spell scroll here...

----------


## Klorox

> *The Passive Soul*
> _Passive combat support to boost your party from 1 to 20_
> 
> The passive soul focuses on stacking hitpoints, redistributing damage, and healing the desperate. It maximizes action economy by keeping the party up and fighting longer, by making their actions more effective, and by getting the most out of your spells.
> 
> The passive soul gets going straight from level 1 and plays through 20. Spell selection is the most important part of building a sorcerer and the build's spell selections are optimal right from the start. I'll go into excessive detail on which spells make the cut. Other aspects of the character, like background and skills, are largely irrelevant to the build.
> 
> 
> *Tactics*
> ...


I love it! I can't help but this it would help a ton having that overused hexblade dip.  Medium armor, shields, eldritch blast if you're bored, ect.

----------


## Benny89

*Guardian of Balance, also called a Spell Breaker*

*This build is specific to Eberron, and so it it's "theme" and powers.* 



You always thought that arcane magic and power of nature is one and the same thing - the cosmic balance, the two sides of the same coin, welded by faith.  You deeply believe that we should care about nature and our roots, while using magic to bring hapiness to common people. You want to be their guide in life, a shepherd that will teach them that everything has place in a world and everything creates a balance, a wheel of life. Your divine powers, so rarely seen in Eberron, only enforce your authority and put more responsibilities on you. 

You are The Guardian, who upholds this very sacred idea of Balance, the bridge between what's natural, magical and holy. And that faith gives you powers that others would only dream of. Cause your powers are of divinity, nature and arcane!  

But that's not all. Even your birth was special, rare. You were born with Dragonmark that already branded you as someone destined for great things. You are Sentinel, one that protects and cares.

*Build:*

*1 Druid/X Arcana Cleric, Mark of Sentinel Variant Human.*

*Stats*: CON 17, DEX 14, WIS 16. You can put 10 in either INT or CHA, what you prefer.

The idea of the build is to take advantage on Mark of Sentinel features (which means we lose level 1 Magic Initiate: Druid from normal Variant Human) while still starting from level 2 with standard Arcana Cleric combo to not waste ASI and trying to catch up with Magic Initiate feat.

*All the Powers You Get:*

*The Druid level 1 dip, which gives us:*

1. Shillelagh, so our melee bread and butter, allowing us to attack in melee with our WIS stat.
2. Fearie Fire, one of the best level 1 spells in game, normally unavailable to Clerics.
3. Good Berries, which is one of the best off-combat healing source in game. Just convert all your remaining slots before long rest every day and you always have resource to heal someone between combat or even get them up by feeding them with berry. Not to mention - one berry is whole day of nutrition, which has a lot of utility value in survival situations.
4. Entangle - good CC spell that targets strength so good vs low-STR enemies (like Goblins or Kobolds for example)
5. Earth Tremor - a decent 1st level AOE spell. 
6. Couple other utility spells like: Beast Bond, Animal Friendship, Longstrider, Jump, Speak with Animals
7. Ice Knife - decent offensive spell
8. Thunderwave - very good 1st level AOE spell
9 . Fog Cloud - good AOE utility spell
10. Charm Person
11. Absorb Elements - a very, very good reaction spell to have and increase our tankiness as Cleric

So as you can see that one level dip gives us absolutely tons of good stuff that Clerics normally don't get. Not to mention the mad synergy with Arcana Cleric.

*Class Progression:*  

If you prefer to keep WIS and CHA saves vs WIS and INT saves of Druid, start as Arcana Cleric and on 2nd level take Druid. Makes really no difference. You can also start as Druid and then go Cleric. Again - makes no difference apart from proficiencies and maybe your backstory/roleplay. It also really only changes your "power" in level 1 gameplay. With Druid you can already have Good Berries/Fearie Fire and WIS attacks, while as Cleric you will have to rely on cantrips for 1st level mostly, which is as good. So chose starting class based on your backstory preference.

My would be to start as Cleric who studies magical arcanas and try to guide other to not misuse magic and use it to help others and who then learnt to study and appreciate nature and it's power and how it all fits together as perfect Balance. He seens the progression of technology in Eberron as something good, but at the same time as something that can easly disturb the balance of nature. And so he teaches others how to balance everything and uphold the best of both worlds.

*Mark of Sentinel Variant Human, what you get:* 

1. First of all: +2 CON and +1 WIS. What do you want more on Cleric? 
2. Shield spell once per long rest. Not bad, not terrible, but since it's slot-free, you won't be regretting using it when some big hit is coming your way.
3. _Sentinel's Intuition_ - _"When you make a Wisdom (Insight) or Wisdom (Perception) check, you can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to the ability check"_. We are SAD WIS class/build here so a free d4 to Insight and Perception, which are WIS based are great bonuses to have.
4. _Vigilant Guardian_. _"When a creature you can see within 5 feet of you is hit by an attack roll, you can use your reaction to swap places with that creature, and you are hit by the attack instead"_. 1/long rest. Well it's not bad utility if you are full HP and your party-member will be killed/downed by enemy attack. It can work really well vs surprise attacks. But it's not why we are here.
5. _Spells of the Mark._ - now this is why we are here. We get the following spells to our spelllist to chose from (which is great on Clerics who has access to their full spelllists!):
1st: compelled duel, shield of faith
2nd: warding bond, zone of truth
3rd: *counterspell*, protection from energy
4th: death ward, guardian of faith
5th: *Bigby's hand*

This mark gives us for our Arcana Cleric two very powerfull spells: Counterspell and Bigby's hand. Having Counterspell on Cleric on top of all his spells is just great. I always thought that Arcana Cleric should have both Dispel Magic and Counterspell, but here it is finally. Now no magic can stand vs us. We have so many ways to prevent and dispel enemy magic that it's a no joke. We are truly the masters of Arcana. 

Bigby's Hand I don't think I have to introduce. Phenomenal spell to have, great utility + damage and something that no Cleric can get. 

*What your Arcana Cleric powers give you:* 

It all comes together now. So your mastery over Arcana Domain gives you the following benefits:

1. You of course get all the goodies of Cleric like Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, Revivify, Healing Word and so on.
2. _Arcane Initiate_: _"When you choose this domain at 1st level, you gain proficiency in the Arcana skill, and you gain two cantrips of your choice from the wizard spell list. For you, these cantrips count as cleric cantrips"._ We all now why we are here: Booming Blade + Green Flame Blade, combining with Shillelagh, giving us: Magical Damage (Shillelagh makes Quarterstaff a magic weapon), d8 dice weapon (Shillelagh), WIS attacks and WIS damage + BB/GFB. Not only it's awesome for Cleric in front line, but it also synergize (as most of us know) we our next Arcana features
3. _Spell Breaker_._"Starting at 6th level, when you restore hit points to an ally with a spell of 1st level or higher, you can also end one spell of your choice on that creature. The level of the spell you end must be equal to or lower than the level of the spell slot you use to cast the healing spell"_. - I mean come on. Think about it: you can cast upcasted healing word and dispel enemy spell from party member. Regeneration spell? Mass Healing Word? Not only that however. Your arsenal vs enemy magic is just enormous: Spell Breaker, Counterspell, Slience, Antimagic Field and Dispel Magic. You can just wave hand in combat and make enemy casters change profession to fighters after that as you deny all magic around you untill Wizards behave themselves! 
4. _Potent Spellcasting_. _"Starting at 8th level, you add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any cleric cantrip"_. Ok, how about we add another +5 damage mod to Booming Blade and GFB. Not only to first strike but also to it's riders? Suddenly our level 11 BB will deal 3d8 + 10 and 3d8 + 5 on rider. Whose the best melee cleric now? Not to mention we also get +5 damage mod to Toll of The Dead, Sacred Flame and so on. If you took Lighting Lure instead of GFB you can now pull enemies back into your Spirit Guardians (after hitting them with BB OA) for nice 3d8 +5 damage at level 11 (12).
5. _Arcane Mastery._ _"At 17th level, you choose four spells from the wizard spell list, one from each of the following levels: 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th. You add them to your list of domain spells. Like your other domain spells, they are always prepared and count as cleric spells for you"_. As of you are not already an Arcane Master - now you get: Mass Suggestion/Eyebite/Magic Jar/Freezing Sphere/Tenser, Simulacrum, Feeblemind, Wish (and so - Greater Steed)? Sure, no problem.
6. Domain Spells. Most interesting ones: Magic Missile (good on Tier 1 gameplay), Magic Weapon (good to support your teammate if needed), Nystul's Magic Aura (not bad utility), Arcane Eye (again, great utility), Leomund's Secret Chest, Teleportation Circle and of course Dispel Magic.

*ASI progression*

So on level 5: I strongly suggest taking +2 WIS at first. While War Caster might be tempting, I don't think It's that important right now. More WIS is more direct damage from BB/GFB, higher DC on SGs, higher couterspell value/dispel magic etc.

Level 9: War Caster. Now those OA Booming Blades will hurt as crazy and you get War Caster just in the same time as you get Potent Spellcasting. 

Level 13: +2 WIS obviously to get 20 WIS and maximize our DC and melee damage

Level 17: RES (CON) +1 CON for 18 CON + War Caster making our concentration pretty unbreakable.

*
The Sweet Taste of Your Power*:

To summary, you get great Druid spells like Good Berries, Absorb Elements (which normally only Nature Cleric gets), Shillelagh, Fearie Fire and couple others, you get all anti-magic features you can think of: Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Spell Breaker, Silence, Antimagic Field. You also get BB + GFB, medium armor and shields (so at least 19 AC), absorb elements, potent spell casting WIS bonus x2 to BB/GFB and bonus to your Cleric cantrips, you get all good stuff from cleric like SGs, SW, Sacred Weapon, Regeneration etc, you get Bigby's Hand (!), you get Wish and Simulacrum on level 18.

To put that into perspective you can run into enemies with classic combo of Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapn, smacking them with GFB/BB for 4d8 + 10 (+ 3d8 + 10 on GFB to second target or 4d8 + 5 on rider from BB) and as a reaction you can cast either: Absorb Element, Counterspell or Shield. You can use Dodge action and force enemies to try to move away from you (difficult terrain), provoking OA from War Caster of BB for 8d8 + 15 damage thunder damage total. You also have access to magical damage from weapon from level 2 + best damage type thunder and magic blunt + Spirit Guardians + best anti-magic tools you can dream of.

Not to mention combos you can do with Wish, Simulacrum, having Gteater Steed and access to all level 1-8 wizard spells thanks to Wish. You can have Clone, Sim, Jar, you can have Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall from Sim, you can have Force Cage etc. Just tons of good stuff on top of cleric spells. Your sim can buff you with Holy Weapon for example and so on.

Also once you have Regenerate spell = with Spell Breaker each turn whoever has Regenerate on him - will dispel one hostile magical effect on him every turn from spells 7th and below level. 

When it comes to armor- I leave it to your table how you treat metal armors for Druids and how you treat it for multiclass with only 1 level of Druid etc. We don't think metal armor or not makes or unmakes druid, same as being vegan or not does not make or unmake animal lover. So I leave it to you, but I don't think with normal DM, even if he will stick not "no metal armor", you will have problems finding armor/shield made from scales/stones/monster parts/chitin/monster plates etc. Remember that you are also Guardian of Balance so you don't believe in absolutes or extremes. So I run in metal half-plate :).


*Alternative Build Path (no Counterspell):*

Reason for this build is pretty much to give Arcana Cleric Counterspell + Bigby's Hand. I think both are perfect tools that makes Arcana Cleric best all around martial-caster-support-area denial build. Bigby's Hand on enemy caster coupled with Counterspell is just not fair even. Also thanks to Counterspell - you can't be counterspelled (because Counterspell can Couterspell :D ). 

However, if you have in your party a member that will already take care of Counterspelling (ask him though if he will use and prepare it, don't just look at spelllist of class) like Wizard or Lore Bard (even more if it's Abjurer) or even Sorcerer if he want to specialize in that- then there is alternative build for this that will give Arcana Cleric few great goodies combined:

Shield spell, Absorb Elements spell and Lighting Lure cantrips (to pull enemies back into your Spirit Guardians for example or to other hazard).

So, instead of starting as Variant Human Mark of Sentinel, we start as standard Variant Human with the following stats: 14 DEX, 16 CON, 16 WIS and again: 10 in either INT or CHA. 

This gives us first level feat, and we choose: Aberrant Dragonmark. What it gives us is:

1. Cantrip from Sorcerer spell list: we choose Lightning Lure
2. 1-st level spell from Sorcerer spell list which we both LEARN and can cast from dragonmark.
3. +1 CON, which will get our CON to 17, which later will get our CON to 18 with RES (CON)

Then we still dip one level Druid for Shil, berries, Absorb Elements etc. 

ASI progression stay the same: +2 WIS, War Caster, +2 WIS, RES (CON) +1 (18)

With this build we lose Counterspell but we are getting even more scary in front lines with Shield spell (+5 AC on reaction) and Absorb Elemements (50% elemental damage absorbtion on reaction), which combining with our boosted SCAG cantrips + Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon makes use super scary front liner.

This alternative way but still uses Dragonmark :). Just different. You have to chose if you prefer Counterspell or Shield spell :).

----------


## Citadel97501

That sounds like an utter blast Benny89, seriously that concept is definitely something I need to try for my next long term game :)

----------


## Benny89

> That sounds like an utter blast Benny89, seriously that concept is definitely something I need to try for my next long term game :)


Thanks, I really like the whole idea from both roleplay and mechanical perspective. This build has very few weakness, being beast in melee, AOE, support and anti-magic fields while also having access to the strongest spells in game (albeit late, but still). The only thing I wish I could improve is AC. Having access to Shield spell would be a blast, but sadly without multiclassing there is no way I can add it and delaying all Arcana Cleric goodies by more than 1 level seems like too much for me. 

We could finish it with 2 levels of other class, but at this point where you are level 18 and got Wish there is no point about worrying about AC really.

Aberrant Dragonmark would give us +1 CON and Shield spell to spelllist, but that means we can't have Dragon Mark, which removes Counterspell and Bigby's Hand from us. I just can't imagine Arcana Cleric without Counterspell, it's just says "ARCANA CLERIC!!!!".

However, if your party will have someone with Counterspell already then you may think about this feat instead.

*So Alternative Build then would be:*

Variant Human, 1 Druid/19 Arcana Cleric, whith Aberrant Dragonmark (Shield spell) at start from free feat at level 1. Which at level 2 would give us (because Druid) both Absord Elements and Shield spell. But we lose counterspell.

ASI after that same, level 5: +2 WIS, level 9: WC, level 13: +2 WIS, level 17: RES (CON).

Pick your poison I guess :))

----------


## Wasp

So this uses the Mark of Sentinel Human because the Azorius Senate doesn't technically exist in Eberron?

----------


## 1Pirate

This is pretty close to Ludic's Arcana cleric build. It just uses different resources to grab most of the same goodies.

This is the only non-Unearthed Arcana thing I've banned while DMing(nobody uses Ravenica at my table). 

You want your filthy Counterspell, you take levels in an arcane caster like everyone else you...filth! 🤬

----------


## Benny89

> This is pretty close to Ludic's Arcana cleric build. It just uses different resources to grab most of the same goodies.
> 
> This is the only non-Unearthed Arcana thing I've banned while DMing(nobody uses Ravenica at my table). 
> 
> You want your filthy Counterspell, you take levels in an arcane caster like everyone else you...filth! 🤬


Yes, of course it's inspired by classic Arcana build, but I just never forgave them that they didn't give him counterspell. It's just so good on Arcana Cleric who already has Dispel and Spell Breaker and this also fill our reaction action (if we fight casters and don't do too much OAs). I love when build has something for every action. Bonus Action: Spiritual Weapon, Action: boosted SCAG cantrips and Reaction: Counterspell, Concentration: Spirit Guardians. You are beast on battlefield.

Also this build gives Absorb Elements which I think is great spell to have on front line (which is Arcana Cleric) and Good Berries is great way to save healing spells between combat. Fearie Fire before Spirit Guariands is also best conc spell. 

Aberrant Dragon Mark version of this build + 1 level Druid would also add Shield spell + Absorb Elements, which also great combo. We lose Counterspell though.

But I love counterspell :). And Bigby's Hand on Cleric is great as it's one of my fav spells in DnD.

Also it's Eberron, not Ravnica.

----------


## 1Pirate

> Also it's Eberron, not Ravnica.


Yes, I know. This was referring to the fact that Ravnica backgrounds are the other means for divine casters to get Counterspell but I never explicitly banned them because no one uses GGtR at the table, but they do use Eberron RftLW.

----------


## Lysimarchos

> Next build will probably be one of the following:
> 
> - A build I've taken to referring to as "the soulknife." A stealthy, unarmored frontliner Eldritch Knight / War Wizard build that's durable, sticky, high DPR, lots of utility, and about as gear-independent as it gets.  They basically summon all of their armaments using abilities like Mage Armor and Shadow Blade.  One of the upshots of using Mage Armor is that you can get the AC of plate while using a Dex build, and retain full stealth capabilities.  Combines great with the "Shape Element" and Minor Illusion cantrips since they don't have Verbal components.
> 
> - A Shadar-Kai Sharpshooter Samurai, because I got asked about it earlier.  A simple yet very reliable DPR core for any party that scales incredibly well with buffs/party synergy.  I consider Samurai to be one of the Fighter subclasses with the highest potential (along with Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight), and the post would highlight why along with DPR analysis and the like.
> 
> - the Cha/Int blaster Wizard build I'm currently playing in a long-term campaign (running from tier 1-4).  Basically my take on the so-called "Nuclear Wizard" build which can potentially out-blast Sorlocks, come online faster, and retain all the versatility of being a Wizard.  And doesn't require Coffeelocking or anything of that sort.  The one I'm playing right now is an Asmodeus Tiefling, but the optimized version would probably be something else, like Yuan-Ti (for whom the Cha/Int typing is actually what you want for a change).
> 
> - A Shifter Inquisitor of the Silver Flame.  A blaster/hunter Cleric from Eberron that brings a lot of damage and detection abilities.
> ...


Since you already posted the Nuclear Wizard a while ago, can you post one of those other builds as well?

----------


## Corran

> Since you already posted the Nuclear Wizard a while ago, can you post one of those other builds as well?


Voting for the shifter inquisitor! :)

----------


## Lysimarchos

> Voting for the shifter inquisitor! :)


I'd like to see that one or the Soulknife.

----------


## LudicSavant

> Since you already posted the Nuclear Wizard a while ago, can you post one of those other builds as well?


Okay, I'll do those!  And also a few more surprises, too!  Here's one to start.  More to come soon (probably tomorrow, in fact).




> Okay, I'll bite. You wanna plop this one in your Eclectic Builds thread?





> Best news of 2020.


Alright, Healing Wizard!  Not only can Wizards be *a* healer, but they can be a* damned good* one.  We're not talking a cut rate off-healer like a Thief Rogue that took the Healer feat, oh no, we're talking about a character who can outheal most Clerics and still have time left over to throw Fireballs and Webs and Walls of Force and what-have-you.  A full blown main party healer that can throw down 4 digits of healing a day, burst heal in combat, cure status effects, mitigate like a king, repeatedly yo-yo not just the party but _themselves_, the works.  Heck, they even get infinite non-combat healing at tier 4, because why not, you're a Wizard.

*Build 10: The Jorasco Physician*


*Halfling (Mark of Healing)* *Life Cleric 1 / Transmuter Wizard 19*
*Stats:*  Str 8, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10
*ASIs*:  Int 16 @5, Int 18 @9, Int 20 @13, Resilient and 16 Con @17, Alert @20
*Cantrips (Wizard)*:  Toll the Dead, Ray of Frost, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Shape Water 
*Cantrips (Cleric)*:  Guidance, Light, Mending
*Tool Proficiencies*:  One of them should be Herbalism.

Alright so, as is often the case for prepared caster builds, you have a lot of tricks up your sleeve... so many in fact that I can't properly list them all in a reasonable-length post.  As such I'm mostly going to be focusing on what's unique about this build, though you should remember that this is still very much a controller Wizard, too.  You can do this _and_ all the usual god wizard things.

*Heres a list of some of your noteworthy healing/mitigation tools:*

*1)  You are exceptionally excellent at using potions.*  Not only can you make them with Herbalism, but unlike most characters you can use multiple ones per round, without even using up your Action.  Heck, you can even yo-yo _yourself_.

First, theres your Familiar, who can deliver potions without using your Action, swiftly flying to wherever they need to be and administering the potion to an ally (per the DMG rules for doing so).

Second, theres Unseen Servant, a ritual you can keep up more or less indefinitely due to its hour duration / no Concentration requirement.  They can hand out potions too, using your bonus actions.  Especially good at lower levels before you start getting really good bonus actions.  

Those are the most noteworthy two, but summoned creatures and animated dead (if youre into that sort of thing) can do it too.  And when you get a Simulacrum, their Familiar and/or Unseen Servant can do it too.

Yes, this costs a little money, but its well worth it and can really get you out of a pinch with some surprisingly high burst healing, *or* yo-yoing multiple people *or* just keeping people healthy while simultaneously doing normal Wizard things.  Even if you're impoverished and can only use this occasionally, having a few potions in your back pocket is a great safety net.

As early as level 2, for example, you can cast your racial Cure Wounds with your Action, Unseen Seer potion with your bonus action, and Familiar potion with the familiars action, all in the same turn, for a grand total of 4d4+1d8+9 (23.5) healing that you have the option of splitting between 3 targets.  Thats basically a 100% burst heal for 1-2 characters, and *it didnt even cost you a single spell slot!*

Remember, you can do this potion stuff with any Wizard.  Use it.  Its great.

*2)  Conventional Healing Staples + Disciple of Life.*
The Mark of Healing expands your spell list, allowing you to get all of the following *as Wizard spells*:

1st	cure wounds, healing word
2nd	lesser restoration, prayer of healing
3rd	aura of vitality, mass healing word
4th	aura of purity, aura of life
5th	greater restoration

So, you get Healing Word, Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Greater Restoration, Mass Healing Word, and Prayer of Healing pretty much all the Cleric standbys except you can stack them with the Wizards superior resource and action economy advantages, and of course Disciple of Life.

It also gives you...

*3)  Aura of Vitality + Disciple of Life.*    This is what the Life Cleric / Lore Bards kept spending their Magical  Secrets on, and now youre getting it on a full Wizard chassis!  

Even if you just use it out of combat, this is 120 hit points spread around as you please (e.g. avoiding waste from overhealing) for a 3rd level slot.  Thats incredibly efficient.

In combat, its using your bonus action for 2d6+5 (12) healing per round, which of course comes on top of whatever your other actions are doing.  Thats a lot of healing to have every round as a bonus action.  Remember, healing never misses; this can really cut into Team Monsters DPR.  It's not too unusual for it to be enough to counter all damage from a fight, to all party members, and maybe even have healing left over to get rid of damage incurred in previous fights, at least if your party isn't just dumping AC and being completely reckless.  It's basically the next best thing to pre-nerf Healing Spirit.

*4) Arcane Recovery and other resources.*  Simply put, you have more spell slots than a Cleric, which means more healing, control, mitigation, etc.

Actually, you have a lot of things that stretch your healing resources longer.   Contingency, Action-free potions, Panacea, a free Cure Wounds and Lesser Restoration from your race, and eventually

*5)  Infinite Healing.*  With Spell Mastery, you can pick up Healing Word for 1d4+8 (10.5), as a bonus action, _at will._ 

That means infinite, slot-free healing out of combat.  And all of the resources that would otherwise have gone to non-combat healing being redirected elsewhere.

It also means getting non-Concentration healing almost as high as DoL Aura of Vitality whenever youre not spending your Action on leveled spells (for example, when slinging cantrips).

It also means that your Simulacrum does it too.  So for example just doing that and Toll the Dead is 8d12 damage and 2d4+16 healing per round.

*6)  Racial Spells*: You basically get a free 1st level and 2nd level spell slot from your race, which extends your resource efficiency a bit further.

The first is Cure Wounds, which is usually a poor use of a spell prepared but great for a freebie.  To put it into perspective, its worth 9.5 hit points (or 19 when your Simulacrum gets it).  Compare that to the Hill Dwarf getting 1 hit point / level and suddenly it sounds like a pretty good deal.

The second is Lesser Restoration, which is a lovely seat belt spell, by which I mean you wont always want it but when you do, you really do.  Its always nice to have someone in the party with this prepared.

*7)  Simulacrum.*  The biggest power spike spell in the game; this allows you to spend money for actions and spell slots at a rate that is a complete steal.  Anything you do can now be *doubled* in a pinch (and your resourceless stuff can be doubled all the time).  Even comes with its own Familiar.  And can have different spells prepared from you.

*8)  Life Transference + DoL*:  A healing spell all Wizards get. 8d8+5 (41) is a big burst heal for a level 3 slot, which of course can stack with your bonus action or minion action heals for numbers comparable to the 6th level Heal spell, but split between multiple characters if you feel like it.  

You basically can take someone from 0-full this way, though you take 4d8 yourself when you do so.  Of course, your third level slots have a lot of really great options, so this has stiff competition and might not see much use, despite being a solid option.

*9)  Soul Cage + DoL*:  This spell lets you heal 2d8+8 hit points as a bonus action, 6 times a day (total 102 hp), no Concentration required.  It also can be used for a variety of great information gathering effects, and an alright ability to influence d20 rolls (only alright because it requires a bonus action beforehand).  The default fluff is Evil, but its really easy to refluff it as something that isnt (I did so for my Wizard that was an acolyte of Wee Jas, who in my version is basically the psychopomp of the pantheon).

*10) Contingency*  It lets you cast a 5th level spell, without an action, and with a spell slot you spent *last week* instead of on dungeoneering day.  

Stacks with all your other action economy and resource shenanigans.  Heck, even a Contingent Cure Wounds can pop you up to (average) 36 hit points automatically when you get reduced to zero. 

*11)  Restore Life.*  If this has a tradeoff compared to other healer builds, its that you dont get a way to revive dead PCs until level 15.  Still, you do have one.  And before that, you at least can get Gentle Repose so that you can cart a teammates body back to town for Revivify (it shouldnt be that hard to find a 5th level spellcaster).

*12)  Panacea.*  Once or twice a day (because your Simulacrum makes transmuters stones too), you can fully heal any characters HP, and remove all curses, diseases, and poisons affecting a creature.  

This is like having the 9th level Power Word Heal, twice, without using your spell slots.  Except its not even a spell, so you can totally cast a bonus action spell on the same turn!  Yeah, it uses up your transmuters stone for the day, but its well worth it for what is essentially extra level 9 spells.

*13)  Transmuters Stone.*  Improve kiting, Con saves, or get Resistance to the damage type of whatever youre fighting.  You dont even have to pick just one, you get to switch each time you cast a spell, so you can adapt to the situation.  And when you eventually get a Simulacrum, they get to make one too.

*14)  Way better reactions.*  Clerics dont get any reaction spells at all, Druids only get Absorb Elements, and Bards need to spend Magical Secrets to get theirs.  You get all the best reaction spells, including Shield, Counterspell, Absorb Elements, and Feather Fall, all of which are great damage mitigators

*15)  You are not a squishy, d6 HD be damned.*  The idea that Wizards have to be squishy is even more wrong than the idea that Wizards cant heal.  The difference between a d6 and d10 HD is just 40 hit points by level 20 (or 38 in the case of this build, since you start with a Cleric level).  Thats worth less than the effective hit point value of a single low-mid level spell slot for you.

Meanwhile, youve got armor, shield, and all the defensive spells that make everyone say an Eldritch Knight is the tankiest Fighter, except with way more spell slots.  And access to higher level defensive spells.  And healing that vastly outstrips Second Wind and can just repeatedly burst yourself to full.

Now Im not setting out to build a primary tank build here, but you can totally switch hit for the frontliner to relieve some pressure and spread damage around the party (which makes AoE healing more efficient).  Or just position more aggressively, without worrying about needing to spend actions or slots escaping if enemies manage to engage on you.

Also, your defenses help your Concentration (you don't make a save if the enemy misses.  Also, Absorb Elements can lower Concentration DCs) and spell slots (you don't need to cast Mage Armor, and you'll need Shield less often if they miss your base AC more).

*16)  Making it safe to rest*.  This is another thing that Wizards already do -- using things like Leomunds Tiny Hut or Rope Trick or Alarm to make it easier for the party to rest, and thus heal up and replenish resources.  Thats healing too.

*17) All the crazy @#$% that control Wizards normally do* to make Team Monsters rate of damage slow to a crawl, whether that's polymorphing people into 158 hp Giant Apes, trapping foes in Walls of Force, making strategic use of vision blockers, whatever.  And the slower damage comes in, the more effective healing is, pound for pound.  

So yeah, like I said, not only are Wizards able to fill the healer role, they do so quite well, with efficient action economy, burst, and sustained healing, and _tons_ of control and mitigation.



*Additional Notes*

*We come online immediately, and only get stronger as we progress*.  At level 2 we're already a strong healer due to our slot efficiency (Arcane Recovery + Racial Cure Wounds slot + No need for Mage Armor and less frequent need for Shield + potion use + Disciple of Life) and action economy (potentially able to heal with our action, bonus action, and familiar's action.  All in the same turn if we like).

At level 20 we have literally infinite noncombat healing, massive burst heals (including 2x 'Power Word Heal'-level effects per day that don't even eat our spell slots), efficient in-combat healing options, multiple sources of self-yo-yo healing, and the ability to cure pretty much any status.  In addition to, you know, being level 20 Wizards and all the nice things that come with that.

And we have a smooth progression between point A and point B.

*Wondering what to do with Minor Alchemy?*  Here's some fun ideas:
- Carve durable substances with a precision and speed that would be impossible for even a master smith by turning them into a more easily workable substance, and working that before the duration expires.  Consider taking up a tool proficiency to go with this, and you can create very fine metallic or precious stone goods in a tiny fraction of the time, without even having access to a forge.  You can whittle a chunk of metal into whatever tool you want on demand.  As well as smuggling weapons into places that don't want you to have weapons.
- Get through locks or chains, more quietly than Knock, and even if the prison guards took away your spell components.
- Scam people by temporarily turning less valuable materials into far more valuable ones.  Can combine with the carving above to make fake priceless art objects.  I don't recommend just outright selling these (since in a magical world rich merchants are likely to know this is possible and institute an hour wait or some such countermeasure), but instead combining it with traditional con artist techniques.  Someone's about to miss the opportunity of a lifetime!
- Transmute a very heavy material into a very light one, throw it or launch it from something (maybe even the Catapult spell), then end Concentration mid-flight.  How effective this is is a DM judgment, but in real life the forces involved could get _extremely_ large, enough to smash reinforced walls and such.
- Silver your weapons if you're going to be fighting something vulnerable to that.
- Collapse structures by turning the base of load bearing pillars / support structures into a material that can't support the weight.

*We are pretty good at ability checks all around*, thanks to Halfling Luck + a well-rounded statline + Guidance, not to mention bonuses to Herbalism and Medicine from Mark of Healing.  Remember that Guidance is a bigger bonus than Expertise in tier 1.  You can further toss in the Skill Empowerment spell later, for more skillmonkeying.  Your familiar really helps out too.  Among other things, they're a scout with Darkvision and a whopping 18 passive perception (with Keen Senses), equivalent to a 16 Wis Cleric with the Observant feat.  And of course the Wizard is just oozing amazing utility spells.

We are extra good at Herbalism and Medicine without particularly trying to be, because of our race.  For example for Herbalism we get a whopping Int + Prof + Halfling Luck + Guidance + Mark bonus (so, +11+2d4+Rerolling 1s).  This means we should familiarize ourselves with the uses of these skills, since we're basically always gonna ace checks with them.  In the case of Herbalism, you can find various ideas for ways to use it in XGtE, the most notable of which is of course crafting 25gp healing potions.  In the case of Medicine, this skill is oft maligned because people rightly point out that the ability to stabilize people is basically worthless since Healing Kits do that without a check.  However, skills needn't be limited to on-the-book uses; I suggest seeing if you can use it for forensics ("how long has this man been dead?   What killed him?)  and as an additional knowledge skill ("This kind of monster inflicts these kinds of poisonous wounds, nasty things, I had to learn how to treat them").

*Use your rituals.*  Try to always have at least one going.  Remember, you can still move around and such while casting rituals.

*As for saving throws*, we don't really have a clear "weak link" save to target, thanks to Halfling Luck + a well-rounded statline + proficiency in Wis, Cha, and Con saves and Int as a primary main stat.  And of course stuff that mitigates the impact on failing saves, like vision blockers (many effects require enemies to see you), elemental Resistance effects, Counterspell, status cures, Contingency, etc.

*We get 5 extra spells prepared and 3 extra cantrips from our Cleric dip.*  You get Cure Wounds and Bless prepared from your Domain, then 3 more.  Good options to prep from the Cleric list are Protection from Evil and Good, Healing Word, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, and (at least until your Int outscales your Wis at 5), Command.

For cantrips, we obviously are going to take Guidance and spam it at every opportunity for bonuses to skills and initiative checks.  And then we can grab two utility cantrips that dont care about your Wisdom, like Light and Mending.

*For Wizard cantrips*, I recommend Toll the Dead, maybe another attack cantrip like Ray of Frost or Create Bonfire (if you've got a grappler/Repelling Blaster/Booming Blader or the like with you), and your choice of utility cantrips.  I picked Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion, and Shape Water, because I like them both mechanically and thematically (because theyd all be really useful for a doctor).  I dont care which of these you take first, as long as one of them is Toll the Dead.

One of the downsides of the Mark of Healing halfling is that it doesn't have an Int bonus, but that's okay, it's still worth it.  *Early on, keep an eye out for spells that are just as good with a little less Int*.  For example, Magic Missile doesn't need to roll attack or make someone fail a save, and is one of the best single target damage spells in a level 1 _and_ level 2 slot (it outdamages Scorching Ray on average unless an enemy's AC is very low, or you're getting Advantage on all the attacks).  But don't be _too_ picky about this; it's just a +1, you can still take whatever spells you want.

*Aura of Vitality doesn't need you to see*, so Concentration-free vision blockers like Pyrotechnics are even better than usual.  This also synergizes with Alert.



*Variants*
  You can turn any Wizard subclass into a healing build using the technique shown here, not just Transmuter.  I only picked them because they're further specialized in that regard and they don't get a lot of screentime on these forums.  The core of this build -- being a Wizard healer -- can actually work with any subclass!  I just used Transmuter because it's rarely played and gives us a way to raise the dead, plus some extra healing abilities.  But seriously, want to do this as an Evoker, Abjurer, Necromancer, Diviner, or War Wizard?  You absolutely can.  In fact, Evocation or Abjuration will save you money on picking up the Mark of Healing spells.  Conjuration can make your Concentration unbreakable, and then you can just kinda face-tank things.  Necromancer can make every single Animated minion carry a potion.  There's fun stuff to do.  Instead of starting with 15 Con and 14 Int, you could take 15 Int and an Int-based half-feat like Keen Mind at 5.  Instead of starting with 15 Con, you could start with 14 and make your statline even more well rounded.  You could also switch out Res(Con) for whatever you want, too (after all, you can still get the proficiency from your Transmuter's Stone, Res:Con just frees you up to give it to someone else).  If you roll for stats, you might have more space for ASIs.  In that case, some options are Lucky, War Caster, and plain old +2 Con ASIs (which I prefer over Tough).  As always, the power creep that is Ravnica Backgrounds exists.  Selesnya is a pretty good pick for Warding Bond and Plant Growth.  Dimir and Orzhov add good spells, too. *Post-Tasha's update:*  This build guide was written pre-Tasha's.  Post-Tasha's, you can swap out the stats for the Mark of Healing Halfling from +Wis/Dex to +Int/Con, allowing you to start with +3 Int and fit an extra feat into the progression to boot.  There are lots of nice new feats to consider, too.

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## Miele

I'd like to ask you advice on building or I should say "modifying" a character for level 6-7 with the goal of reaching (eventually) the level cap. Levelling takes quite a while at my table, so I'd prefer not having to wait until T3 to have a fully fleshed out class.
The character was born as a nuclear wizard (currently warlock hexblade 1/ evocation wizard 5), but both me and the DM thought it was not appropriate for the campaign we were playing, having a group fully packed with martials that are not very experienced players (for most of them it's their first D&D campaign), stealing their thunder on single target damage was not appropriate, so we accepted the idea of retconning the character story/multiclassing a bit.

A few premises: the party is large, with a Light domain cleric, a berserker barbarian, an assassin, a spell-less ranger, two fighters, one is a champion and the other a battlemaster.
I'm a gnome and I want to be primarily a wizard, this must remain. I wanted to multiclass to have more cantrips (and maybe some armor proficiency), because honestly I love Mold Earth and Shape Water, and no respectable Wizard can be without Prestidigitation and Mage Hand, so the warlock level was giving me 2 extra cantrips for attacking (I picked Create Bonfire and Toll the Dead, not specifically from the warlock list of course).

I thought about the Artificer, but for me it's totally new, never played one, never DM'ed one and I'm actually starting to read something about it. Pros are certainly that it's thematic with gnomes and it uses INT as main stat, but aside from that? What do you think could be thematically good? I'd rather be Art 1/Wiz 5 for now, but can eventually take more Artificer levels later on if it's cool in terms of utility and RP potential.

The setting of the campaign is Mystara, but pretty much what can go in Forgotten, can also work there. I know the Artificer is an Eberron class, but we certainly can fit that in Mystara without too many problems.

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## Benny89

> I'd like to ask you advice on building or I should say "modifying" a character for level 6-7 with the goal of reaching (eventually) the level cap. Levelling takes quite a while at my table, so I'd prefer not having to wait until T3 to have a fully fleshed out class.
> The character was born as a nuclear wizard (currently warlock hexblade 1/ evocation wizard 5), but both me and the DM thought it was not appropriate for the campaign we were playing, having a group fully packed with martials that are not very experienced players (for most of them it's their first D&D campaign), stealing their thunder on single target damage was not appropriate, so we accepted the idea of retconning the character story/multiclassing a bit.
> 
> A few premises: the party is large, with a Light domain cleric, a berserker barbarian, an assassin, a spell-less ranger, two fighters, one is a champion and the other a battlemaster.
> I'm a gnome and I want to be primarily a wizard, this must remain. I wanted to multiclass to have more cantrips (and maybe some armor proficiency), because honestly I love Mold Earth and Shape Water, and no respectable Wizard can be without Prestidigitation and Mage Hand, so the warlock level was giving me 2 extra cantrips for attacking (I picked Create Bonfire and Toll the Dead, not specifically from the warlock list of course).
> 
> I thought about the Artificer, but for me it's totally new, never played one, never DM'ed one and I'm actually starting to read something about it. Pros are certainly that it's thematic with gnomes and it uses INT as main stat, but aside from that? What do you think could be thematically good? I'd rather be Art 1/Wiz 5 for now, but can eventually take more Artificer levels later on if it's cool in terms of utility and RP potential.
> 
> The setting of the campaign is Mystara, but pretty much what can go in Forgotten, can also work there. I know the Artificer is an Eberron class, but we certainly can fit that in Mystara without too many problems.


I would just got with 1 Artificer/19 Wizard of any kind. I recommend for this party Evocation, because they will be all in melee so it's good to throw fireball that can ignore friendly fire.

Artificer is good if you go fully in this class, not when you multi it. You are better just taking 1 level dip for Medium Armors, Shields, Ferie Fire, Cure Wounds etc + CON save proficiency which saves  you ASI.

Then just maximize your INT to 20 and work from there. You will have AC 19, CON save proficiency and could good extra spells from Artificer to use.

So 1 Artificer/19 Evocation Wizard from me. 

Your party will love you for Fearie Fire spell on enemies (advantage for all that martial classes) + you throwing fireballs on enemies without burning friends :).

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## Klorox

> I'd like to ask you advice on building or I should say "modifying" a character for level 6-7 with the goal of reaching (eventually) the level cap. Levelling takes quite a while at my table, so I'd prefer not having to wait until T3 to have a fully fleshed out class.
> The character was born as a nuclear wizard (currently warlock hexblade 1/ evocation wizard 5), but both me and the DM thought it was not appropriate for the campaign we were playing, having a group fully packed with martials that are not very experienced players (for most of them it's their first D&D campaign), stealing their thunder on single target damage was not appropriate, so we accepted the idea of retconning the character story/multiclassing a bit.
> 
> A few premises: the party is large, with a Light domain cleric, a berserker barbarian, an assassin, a spell-less ranger, two fighters, one is a champion and the other a battlemaster.
> I'm a gnome and I want to be primarily a wizard, this must remain. I wanted to multiclass to have more cantrips (and maybe some armor proficiency), because honestly I love Mold Earth and Shape Water, and no respectable Wizard can be without Prestidigitation and Mage Hand, so the warlock level was giving me 2 extra cantrips for attacking (I picked Create Bonfire and Toll the Dead, not specifically from the warlock list of course).
> 
> I thought about the Artificer, but for me it's totally new, never played one, never DM'ed one and I'm actually starting to read something about it. Pros are certainly that it's thematic with gnomes and it uses INT as main stat, but aside from that? What do you think could be thematically good? I'd rather be Art 1/Wiz 5 for now, but can eventually take more Artificer levels later on if it's cool in terms of utility and RP potential.
> 
> The setting of the campaign is Mystara, but pretty much what can go in Forgotten, can also work there. I know the Artificer is an Eberron class, but we certainly can fit that in Mystara without too many problems.


I agree with the artificer 1 level dip, and maybe mold yourself after the god wizard type. 

That being said, I cant remember what level it comes at, but there is an alchemist ability that gives you INT times per rest lesser restoration.  Thats not a wonderful ability on its own, but that berserker barbarian will be your best friend if you go that route.

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## stoutstien

> I agree with the artificer 1 level dip, and maybe mold yourself after the god wizard type. 
> 
> That being said, I cant remember what level it comes at, but there is an alchemist ability that gives you INT times per rest lesser restoration.  Thats not a wonderful ability on its own, but that berserker barbarian will be your best friend if you go that route.


unfortunately exhaustion is only removed by greater restoration which is a much higher level spell and has a costly material component that is consumed.

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## AdAstra

> unfortunately exhaustion is only removed by greater restoration which is a much higher level spell and has a costly material component that is consumed.


This is true. However, the Alchemist subclass of Artificer, starting at level 15, can cast Greater Restoration (or Heal) without a spell slot or material component once per long rest. So helping out the Berserker is still possible.

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## EdenIndustries

> *5)  Infinite Healing.*  With Spell Mastery, you can pick up Healing Word for 1d4+8 (10.5), as a bonus action, _at will._


How are you managing to get Healing Word for Spell Mastery? Your Spell Mastery spells have to be Wizard spells in your spellbook, right? Aren't you getting Healing Word as a Cleric spell, not a Wizard spell?

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## LudicSavant

> How are you managing to get Healing Word for Spell Mastery? Your Spell Mastery spells have to be Wizard spells in your spellbook, right? Aren't you getting Healing Word as a Cleric spell, not a Wizard spell?


Mark of Healing makes the following things available as Wizard spells:

1st	cure wounds, *healing word*
2nd	lesser restoration, prayer of healing
3rd	aura of vitality, mass healing word
4th	aura of purity, aura of life
5th	greater restoration

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## EdenIndustries

> Mark of Healing makes the following things available as Wizard spells:
> 
> 1st	cure wounds, *healing word*
> 2nd	lesser restoration, prayer of healing
> 3rd	aura of vitality, mass healing word
> 4th	aura of purity, aura of life
> 5th	greater restoration


Got it, thanks! Geez that's a powerful set of additional spells for the wizard...

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## Klorox

> unfortunately exhaustion is only removed by greater restoration which is a much higher level spell and has a costly material component that is consumed.


Aww crap, you're right.  Alchemist still sucks then.




> Ask and ye shall receive!  
> 
> Herein are collected some builds that were made in response to advice threads and the like.  Since these were responses to specific questions, I have tried to summarize the context for each.  All of them are good from level 1-20 and can perform in all 3 pillars of play.  
> 
> Hopefully these help provide people with some ideas for fun and viable builds.  Enjoy!  
> 
> *Build 1:  Celestial Generalist*
> This is a jack of all trades build highlighting the versatility of the Celestial Warlock.


I love this build.

A few questions:

Did you just go vhuman for the moderately armored feat and boost CHA from there? Or is warcaster more optimal first?

Would it work with half elf, and maybe mix elven accuracy in there?

Does the build work for levels 1 and 2, before you make your pact? I assume it would work alright as a basic warlock, but Ive never actually played one.

Thanks!

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## LudicSavant

> Got it, thanks! Geez that's a powerful set of additional spells for the wizard...


Yes indeed it is.




> I love this build.
> 
> A few questions:
> 
> Did you just go vhuman for the moderately armored feat and boost CHA from there? Or is warcaster more optimal first?


Yes.  I take Moderately Armored at 1, Cha at 4 and 8, Warcaster at 12.  You can opt for Warcaster at 4 and Cha at 8 and 12, too.  Either way.

I feel Moderately Armored is more important because it's a considerable defensive bump, and it helps your Concentration too (get hit less, lose Concentration less).




> Would it work with half elf, and maybe mix elven accuracy in there?


  Half-Elf is a good race for Warlock.  You just would have to wait longer for your feats.




> Does the build work for levels 1 and 2, before you make your pact? I assume it would work alright as a basic warlock, but Ive never actually played one.


Sure does.  It's basically a basic Warlock with higher AC and some emergency healing, at that point.

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## Yakmala

> *2)  Conventional Healing Staples + Disciple of Life.*
> The Mark of Healing expands your spell list, allowing you to get all of the following *as Wizard spells*:
> 
> 1st	cure wounds, healing word
> 2nd	lesser restoration, prayer of healing
> 3rd	aura of vitality, mass healing word
> 4th	aura of purity, aura of life
> 5th	greater restoration
> 
> So, you get Healing Word, Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Greater Restoration, Mass Healing Word, and Prayer of Healing pretty much all the Cleric standbys except you can stack them with the Wizards superior resource and action economy advantages, and of course Disciple of Life.[/LIST]


This is fantastic and almost makes me want to pump the brakes on my current Oracle of War character and head in this direction!

----------


## 1Pirate

> I love this build.
> 
> A few questions:
> 
> Did you just go vhuman for the moderately armored feat and boost CHA from there? Or is warcaster more optimal first?
> 
> Would it work with half elf, and maybe mix elven accuracy in there?
> 
> Does the build work for levels 1 and 2, before you make your pact? I assume it would work alright as a basic warlock, but Ive never actually played one.
> ...


I played this build(with some adjustments to fit the setting and party composition) extensively in a longer campaign(so I'm clearly more qualified to discuss it than the creator :Small Big Grin: ).

1. If your DM is a little more of a stickler for components(like mine was) you'll want to pick up Warcaster at 4("I cast Eldritch Blast!" "Ah so you're dropping your shield then?" "Uh, no I..." "Ok, you were going to let your club go then? All right You'll lose Shillelagh though." "No, no, no wait!").

2. Moderately Armored is a pretty key part of the build since it gets your defenses up early(not only armor, but that Dex point too). I actually caught my DM off guard the first time the BBEG ordered his mooks to take out the "squishy" healer. None of them hit("Wait, a 17 _misses_ you?") and I started smoking them with Green Flame Blade. At levels 1 and 2, that's what will set you apart from the basic warlock.  

3. Unless you're starting at 12 or have an odd stat, Elven Accuracy isn't going to be worth delaying the feats IMHO. This build is more than just Hex, EB, repeat. A lot of the power comes from the various synergies, like Repelling Blasting enemies into your Guardian of Faith/Sickening Radiance/Flaming Sphere/Wall of Fire, Counterspelling Evard's Black Tentacles with a shield in your off hand, and healing your paladin buddy from 30 feet away and then Thunderstepping the actual Squishy away from the horde of mooks surrounding them. You'll be wanting those extra Charisma points before triple advantage.

----------


## Skylivedk

Huge fan of the healing Wizard! Especially the use of transmuter (whom I had personally relegated to the dark recesses of my mind) and having a good reason to play a Halfling Wizard. 

I don't know if you like to make it even better as a guide. If you do, I'd recommend page references to some of the lesser known parts (ie the skill uses in XgtE and maybe the Mark of Healing itself). Regardless I'm a fan and could see myself play this as my next character... That or the Arcana cleric.

Cheers and thank you!

----------


## bendking

> *Build 10: The Jorasco Physician*


Man, I never would have expected a healing Wizard. Great build.
Also, Mark of Healing is ridiculous!

----------


## LudicSavant

> Treantmonk's build looks like a severe downgrade from LudicSavant's.


Posted this in another thread.  Essentially an elusive glass iron cannon who dishes out buckets of damage while simultaneously doing quite a lot to protect teammates from harm and lock down foes.

*Build 11: The Ancestral Avenger*

_"I've got friends on the other side.  You, on the other hand, seem to have made many enemies there."_

When I saw the Echo Knight class, my first thought was 'you know, as an Ancestral Guardian I always felt it'd be cool if grandpa could kick someone's @#$ directly.'  Well, with Echo Knight, that flavor becomes easy!  I built this guy as a sort of martial voodoo priest who summons vengeful spirits from smoke and mist, and seems to slip in and out of that mist themselves, disappearing and reappearing somewhere else.

This build aims to combine a bunch of mechanics that complement and cover each others' weaknesses in order to become more than the sum of its parts.  You'll see what I mean.

*VHuman Echo Knight 5 / Ancestral Guardian 3 / Echo X*
*Stats*:  Str 16 / Con 16 / Dex 14 / Wis 10
*ASIs*:  Sentinel @1, GWM @4, Str [email protected], Str [email protected], [email protected], Res(Wis) @17, [email protected]

Sentinel is going to be pulling quadruple duty here.  First, it'll be preventing people from moving away from your echo.  Second, you'll have far more freedom to position for its 'make a reaction attack if an ally within 5 feet of you is attacked' feature since you don't actually have to stand in melee -- not to mention that you can threaten movement-halting OAs from multiple positions at once.  Third, unlike a normal Sentinel-user, the movement restriction is actually protecting _you_ from melee attacks, in addition to your allies.  The synergy is just great, here.  

After that, GWM is nice because we get to use it without many of its usual disadvantages, since we don't actually need to be in melee to use it.  Oh sure, we're sacrificing the AC of a shield, but the enemy has to get past your echo _and_ your allies (who become tanky themselves from the Ancestral Guardian mark) in order to get to you, and you can use cover and the like, so it works out.  This added safety also means that you can spam Reckless Attack, which further synergizes with GWM (both for the accuracy, and for getting the bonus action attack proc more often).  I'm not one to put GWM on tank builds typically, but in this case I think I can make an exception due to just how much the kit synergizes.

We also want to take the Great Weapon Fighting style, since it adds a good chunk of damage if you have lots of attacks (which we do) and a high crit rate (which we also do, thanks to the relatively freedom with which this build can spam Reckless).

Let's say you're level 8.  In a single round, you can potentially Action Surge for 6 Reckless GWM attacks, plus a 46% chance of a 7th (from one of those Reckless attacks being a crit and triggering GWM's extra attack), plus the chance of getting a 7th from reducing something to 0HP (a good chance, given how much you're dishing out), plus a solid chance of an 8th from a Sentinel attack (either from the enemy hitting someone next to you, or from trying to walk away from you or your echo).  And all of these attacks get the rage and GWF style bonuses.  That's 6-8 Raging GWM/GWF attacks, all with Advantage, at tier 2.  Which, in case you're curious, is around 100 DPR against AC 15, and yes that's _with_ accounting for miss chance (and crit chance, GWF rerolls, etc).  ~108.6 DPR vs AC15 if you get all 8 attacks (with the reaction lacking Advantage).  Your at-will damage is similarly well above par, thanks to Reckless GWM/GWF attacks and reaction attacks.  And again, this is all at just level 8.

But giant piles of burst and at-will damage is just a taste of what you bring to the table.  Your control is multifaceted.  
- You can mark 1 enemy with Ancestors, which basically makes allies considerably tankier than Bear-barians against that enemy.
- You can lock down or punish another enemy with Sentinel.
- You can lock down yet another enemy by Grappling/Proning them with Advantage (in fact, you can grapple as many people as you have hands available).   You have lots of attacks to use for this, making you a highly effective grappler.
- You are decent at clearing swarms due to your high number of accurate attacks and the fact that you get an extra one when reducing someone to zero.  "Dead" is a really great CC status effect, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.  And after you clear the mooks, you will often still have enough attacks left over to use some lockdown on the big guy.
- You can block some attacks with Shadow Martyr.
- Enemies can attack your echo, sure, but think of it this way -- if you could use a bonus action to negate 1 or more attacks, that'd be pretty good, right?  And it very well might be more than one attack -- your Echo has disadvantage to be hit thanks to Ancestral Protectors!  Yep, that's right, the wording's compatible even though the Echo's not a creature!
- Unlike a normal GWM or Sentinel user, you can actually kite, and do all kinds of combos with hazard / control casters to boot.  This has a ton of potential for party combos.
- Also unlike a normal GWM user, you're fairly resistant to being CCed yourself, thanks to your ability to teleport all over the place.

Your main weakness is going to be mental saving throws, so at higher levels we start reinforcing that a bit via Res(Wis) (it's stronger the later you take it), Indomitable, and eventually Lucky.  Though ideally when you see something that has nasty mental saves, your _first_ defense should be to try and kill it ASAP with your big fat burst damage.  Maybe even put yourself out of line of sight so that it can't attack you (you can even Recklessly Attack to cancel out your Disadvantage from being unable to see the enemy.  Or you could even have an Unseen Servant holding a mirror or something -- get creative, start Thinking With Echoes).  Or create so much value in general that your team has more resources for countering spells and charms and such.  Anyways, this is why I took Alert before Lucky; if you go first you can get into a favorable position or possibly just delete a troublesome foe outright.

*Variants/Notes:*
- You can take the Defense style instead of the GWF style, sacrificing a little offense for a little defense.
- You have a fair bit of flexibility in the order of your progression here.  Going Ancestral 4 at any time can get you an ASI earlier if desired, at the cost of getting some fighter features later (and losing access to the second Action Surge at 20).  You also can take EK 6, 8, or 11 prior to jumping into AG if desired (especially if you want Strength boosts earlier).  You can also delay the 3rd level of AG for a bit after getting the 2nd if you want Fighter ASIs slightly sooner.  Like I said, flexibility.
- One of the advantages of not taking strength boosts right away is that it gives you a little time to see if you're in the sort of campaign where you might be able to get your hands on Strength-replacing magic items (like Giant Belts and such), and if you do so, you are then freed up to take other excellent feats.
- The reason I don't take Barbarian as my level 1 class is because it makes your tier 1 progression better not to.  If your campaign is starting at level 6+, this becomes irrelevant, and you can take Barbarian as your level 1 class for +2 max HP.
- The reality of Echo Barbarian builds is that they require Strength (for Reckless Attack), Dexterity (since you can't rage in heavy armor), and Constitution (for Echo Knight features), which limits our ability to meet multiclassing requirements without seriously impacting the build... unless of course you roll high for stats.  In that case, you can improve this build further via multiclassing -- for example, Hexblade 1 (requires Cha 13) and Gloomstalker 3 (requires Wis 13) are both very powerful and synergistic additions which further add to the voodoo flavor.  The only reason I don't take them is because of the pesky multiclassing stat requirements.
- The last 3 (or 4, if you take Ancestral 4 instead of Fighter 17) feats can be switched out as desired.  If you can afford it in terms of stats (since it needs 13 Wis or Int), I really like the Ritual Caster feat, both mechanically and for the flavor.  Simply boosting your Constitution is a decent option too, since it scales Echo Knight features (in addition to the usual benefits). 

___

Let me know what you think.

----------


## da newt

For your AA:

If you dipped 2 lvls of Warlock you could grab Mask of Many Faces and you and your Echo would look exactly the same - sort of low cost 24/7 Mirror Image ...

BTW - I'm eagerly awaiting your soul knife build.

----------


## Lysimarchos

> Posted this in another thread.  Essentially an elusive glass iron cannon who dishes out buckets of damage while simultaneously doing quite a lot to protect teammates from harm and lock down foes.
> 
> *Build 11: The Ancestral Avenger*
> 
> _"I've got friends on the other side.  You, on the other hand, seem to have made many enemies there."_
> 
> When I saw the Echo Knight class, my first thought was 'you know, as an Ancestral Guardian I always felt it'd be cool if grandpa could kick someone's @#$ directly.'  Well, with Echo Knight, that flavor becomes easy!  I built this guy as a sort of martial voodoo priest who summons vengeful spirits from smoke and mist, and seems to slip in and out of that mist themselves, disappearing and reappearing somewhere else.
> 
> This build aims to combine a bunch of mechanics that complement and cover each others' weaknesses in order to become more than the sum of its parts.  You'll see what I mean.
> ...


Since you didn't take PAM, is this build better with a halberd/glaive or a greatsword/greataxe/maul? Also, what do you think about Tunnel Fighter?

----------


## LudicSavant

> Since you didn't take PAM, is this build better with a halberd/glaive or a greatsword/greataxe/maul?


Maul > Greatsword >>> Greataxe.  Bludgeoning is a slightly better damage type than slashing, and Greataxe is just plain mathematically inferior.

The reason I didn't go for PAM here is because you already have a lot to do with your bonus actions and reactions.  It's a bonus action to rage.  It's a bonus action to make an echo.  It's a bonus action to Second Wind.  It's a bonus action to make the GWM extra attack (which you can trigger fairly often due to your high number of Advantaged attacks).  It's a reaction to make an OA, or to use the Sentinel reaction.  And you already are waiting a bit to max your Strength.

With 8 attacks and Advantage, you have a ~56% chance of getting a bonus action attack from GWM (plus whatever chance you have of reducing something to 0 on your turn).  With 3 attacks and advantage, you have a ~26.5% chance.  

This, plus the other competition for your bonus actions and reactions, the lower damage die of reach weapons (multiplied over numerous attacks), and the opportunity cost of an ASI, means that PAM might not actually be improving your DPR at all.

Yeah, with PAM you can do some mean things with Reach+Sentinel+PAM making it even harder for people with only 5-foot range attacks to get to you, but those enemies tend to be the least of your worries as it is.

----------


## da newt

I'm not sure, but I think RAW is that the Echo can only attack when you take the attack action - therefor it cannot attack using a bonus action ... 

Also, I don't think PAM's extra trigger for a Opp Att applies to your Echo (or Sentinel's) ...

If I'm wrong - please let me know (and include references).  I'm new to Echo Knight.

----------


## LudicSavant

> I'm not sure, but I think RAW is that the Echo can only attack when you take the attack action - therefor it cannot attack using a bonus action ...


As far as I can tell, this is correct.

----------


## ftafp

*The Underwater Basket Weaver*

*Note:* this build was initially inspired by u/auxlang's gorgeous Underwater Basket Weaver Turned Adventurer, but because of the noble tradition of underwater basket weaving's reputation as a joke as well as its real-world cultural roots in Inuit artifice I decided Sokka was a more appropriate image for this character. Let's begin

*Half Sea elf Artificer 2 / Thief 3 / Conjuror 3 / Alchemist X*
*Stats* 8 Str, 13+1 Dex, 14 Con, 15+1 Int, 12 Wis, 10+2 Cha
*ASIs:* Int +2 @ 10, Int +2 @ 14, Warcaster @ 16, Lucky @ 20


*What is this designed for:* Underwater basket weaving has a memetic infamy in DnD second only to the Gazebo. With it bearing the ironic title of Most Broken Skill in DnD, I wanted to create a character who looked useless at first glance, and second, and third, but was in actuality quite broken in the hands of a clever player. More to the point, I wanted to create a character who embraced the concept as flavorfully as possible.

*How it accomplishes that:* From the start of his journey, Sokka (I'm not good with names) would be an experienced basket-weaver. Baskets are vital tools for coastal human communities as they're light, don't retain water, and are perfect for gathering shellfish and seaweed among other things. The willow switches used to make wicker baskets must be kept wet while crafting in order to keep them supple, but dry quickly when exposed to air. Someone like Sokka who can breath under water never needs to worry about their wicker breaking, so he has a distinct advantage over the land races.

Wicker as it happens is a utilitarian material. Being light, durable and flexible, Sokka can use it to make armor and shields which he's capable of using. Additionally it can make a functional weapon, and by applying his brains, Sokka use a basket on the end of pole as a better, more accurate sling that uses his Int modifier at low levels thanks to magic stone. It also means that as he takes levels of Rogue later, Sokka can apply his sneak attack damage to his attacks.

At level 2, Sokka gains access to arcane infusions, which he can use for Baskets of Holding and Alchemy Baskets. One might wonder how a basket could make a functional jug, and the secret it lining the inside with pitch or river clay, rendering the basket waterproof. He had to go through a lot of baskets before he figured that one out, but now it works wonders

Level 5 is where Sokka gets Fast Hands. This lets him extract items from his basket and use them as a bonus action, which is a pretty sweet deal considering the two baskets of acid he gets from his alchemy basket each day use the Use an Object action to throw rather than an attack action. He can also do a lot with the environment at this level. It's a sweet gig.

Now, let's talk about wizard for a minute. Everyone knows that wizards need spellbooks to record their spells in, but not every spellbook has to be a literal book. Sokka for example can weave colored thread through the outside of his baskets to write on them, making his basket function as a spellbasket. Weaving spells into an already potent infusion can make for some pretty useful enchantments, and by level 7 Sokka can conjure just about any tiny object he wants from his baskets and use them as a bonus action. That includes acid, but also tools like poisons, explosives, shattersitcks, lycanthrope blood, all sorts of things from various adventures and sourcebooks that are nonmagical. He'll take one more level of wizard for second level spells and the it's back to artificer

By level 9, Sokka can now create potions that he stores in his baskets. He can use these potions as a bonus action to get various concentration-free buffs. Neato.

Keep going now until we reach level 15. This is where things really kick off. Sokka can animate his ammo basket with Tiny Servant along as well as two of the pebbles in it at the start of every day and order them to follow him and throw the rocks his familiar touches at whoever it points to (I did mention the familiar right?) this means that every turn he can cast magic stone as a bonus action and get three free preprogrammed attacks from his tiny servants, all of which add his int modifier.

By the end of this, Sokka has proven his worth as an actually sort of capable adventurer. Now if only I knew how to progress him better. shame on me

----------


## LudicSavant

> *The Underwater Basket Weaver*
> 
> *Note:* this build was initially inspired by u/auxlang's gorgeous Underwater Basket Weaver Turned Adventurer, but because of the noble tradition of underwater basket weaving's reputation as a joke as well as its real-world cultural roots in Inuit artifice I decided Sokka was a more appropriate image for this character. Let's begin
> 
> *Half Sea elf Artificer 2 / Thief 3 / Conjuror 3 / Alchemist X*
> *Stats* 8 Str, 13+1 Dex, 14 Con, 15+1 Int, 12 Wis, 10+2 Cha
> *ASIs:* Int +2 @ 10, Int +2 @ 14, Warcaster @ 16, Lucky @ 20
> 
> 
> ...


Basket weaving is a time-honored D&D tradition!

How does he use potions as a bonus action at 9, though?  Do they not count as a magic item for Fast Hands?

----------


## ftafp

> Basket weaving is a time-honored D&D tradition!
> 
> How does he use potions as a bonus action at 9, though?  Do they not count as a magic item for Fast Hands?


When I say potions I'm referring to Experimental Elixirs, which are kind of a grey area. The text says that you magically conjure them, but it doesn't say that the elixirs themselves are magical. Most DMs will rule favorably on this as the two abilities are otherwise pretty useless on their own and don't become unbalanced when combined

----------


## piffle213

> Hopefully these help provide people with some ideas for fun and viable builds.  Enjoy!  
> 
> *Build 1:  Celestial Generalist*
> This is a jack of all trades build highlighting the versatility of the Celestial Warlock.


Hello, I stumbled across this guide while trying to figure out a Warlock/Sorcerer multi-class with either Celestial or Divine Soul and liked it so much I want to try that instead.

I'm doing a one shot campaign from level 5-7. The other two party members are a Barbarian and Fighter so we definitely need some spells/healing from me.

So my question is, in the level 5-7 range, what would you recommend I drop out? I was thinking the Charisma ASI at 4 would be better than the War Caster. But then I was wondering if it was better to take WC instead of the Armored feat at level 1 orrrr just go Half-Elf and skip the feats altogether?

Thoughts? Thanks, love your builds!

----------


## Rakoa

Just popping in to say that I love the thread and would love to see the Shifter Investigator.

----------


## LudicSavant

Thanks for everyone who is expressing interest in upcoming builds!

I'm currently (re)typing up the Soulknife.  (The reason it got delayed is because I made an entire Eldritch Knight Guide size post, then... uhhh... GitP decided to tell me that the "token expired" and I lost it all.  Whoops.  That's what I get for not drafting it in Google Docs or something first!)

Hopefully will have that done tonight.




> Hello, I stumbled across this guide while trying to figure out a Warlock/Sorcerer multi-class with either Celestial or Divine Soul and liked it so much I want to try that instead.
> 
> I'm doing a one shot campaign from level 5-7. The other two party members are a Barbarian and Fighter so we definitely need some spells/healing from me.
> 
> So my question is, in the level 5-7 range, what would you recommend I drop out? I was thinking the Charisma ASI at 4 would be better than the War Caster. But then I was wondering if it was better to take WC instead of the Armored feat at level 1 orrrr just go Half-Elf and skip the feats altogether?
> 
> Thoughts? Thanks, love your builds!


Hi piffle!  I think it's best to get the armor first, then you can choose whether or not you want Warcaster or Cha boosts first after that, depending on your preferred playstyle.

Some posts you may find relevant to your decision:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=506
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=508

----------


## LudicSavant

*Edit Note*:  This build does not refer to the Soulknife subclass -- it was written before that was a thing that existed!  




> LudicSavant, would you mind your next writeup being that Soulknife (EK/War Magic Wiz) you mentioned before? The idea of that one really struck my fancy.





> And the soulknife build, please! And Hieroneous in your god series. 
> 
> You didn't need that free time, right? :)





> I'd like to see that one or the Soulknife.


Here's a _very_ tanky Dex Fighter that still gets to dish out more damage than many GWMers despite wielding a shield (and Shield, and ironclad saves, and etc).  Best of both worlds.  I've taken to calling this style of build a "Soulknife" build because they can summon all their weapons and armor, using Shadow Blade (or Weapon Bond) and Mage Armor.

If you ever wanted a hypertank Fighter who was ready for war to break out even while they were wearing their wedding dress, then this is for you!  (What, you say it's weird to worry about how battle-ready you are at your wedding?  Then why does a marriage Ceremony increase AC?  Explain that!)

Like all my builds, this is designed to be effective at all levels, from 1-20.

*Build 12:  The Soulknife*

*Elf (Shadar Kai) Eldritch Knight 11 / War Wizard 2 / EK 1 / WW 6 (Total EK12 / WW 8)
Starting Stats*:  Dex 17 / Con 16 / Int 14 / Wis 10
*ASIs: * War Caster @4, Elven Accuracy (18 Dex) @6, 20 Dex @8, Lucky @14, Alert @16, Resilient (Wis) @20
*Fighting Style:*  Dueling
*Cantrips Known:*  Booming Blade, Control Flames, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Shape Water, Green-Flame Blade, Chill Touch
*Spells Known (EK, Abjuration/Evocation):*  Shield, Absorb Elements, Protection from Evil and Good, Mage Armor, Warding Wind, Thunderwave
*Spells Known (EK, Any School):*  Find Familiar @3, Shadow [email protected]  At level 12 you should put Find Familiar in your spellbook (so you can use it as a ritual); you can swap the EK spell known out at 14 for whatever you want; Misty Step or something.
*Other Spells Known*:  After that, you get at least 20 more spells from Wizard, plus however many you purchase with gold.  I offer some suggestions in the "Progression" section.
*Spell slots at level 20*:  4/3/3/3/2/1 + 4 spell levels from Arcane Recovery.  Max sixth level slots.
*(Optional) Ravnica Background: * Dimir


*A Very Well-Rounded Defense*
You have 20 AC (from wearing mage armor and a shield), and then either Shield or Arcane Deflection on top of that.  You can increase this even further with other defensive spells, like Protection from Evil and Good or Fire Shield, if necessary.  And Alert means that unseen enemies don't even get advantage against you.  Lucky means that you can negate Critical hits, too.

You have always-on Resistance to Necrotic damage, Resistance to 5 other elemental types with Absorb Elements, and Resistance to everything 1/day when you use your Shadar-Kai Teleport.

All of your saves are great because of Arcane Deflection + Indomitable + Lucky, which all stack.  And advantage against Charms from being an Elf, too.  What's that, someone wants to Dominate you?  Well hope they can get through up to +10 to the save and up to 3 rerolls.

You can't be easily kited or locked down like most melee Fighters, thanks to your ability to teleport (either from your race, or from Misty Step).  You can get out of that Wall of Force and kill the mage who cast it on the same turn.

And you can't be ignored, because you hit like a convoy of trucks and Shadow Blade + Booming Blade + Warcaster OAs are deadly.

*Unbreakable Concentration*
If an enemy can even hit you in the first place, you have Proficiency in Con saves, 16 Con, and Warcaster... all by level 4.  Later, you can boost your saves even further with Arcane Deflection, Indomitable, and Lucky (which all stack).  So you're looking at +9-+13 Con saves with up to 3 rerolls.

As if that weren't enough, you also frequently cut down the DCs of Concentration saves, because you have Absorb Elements, Shadar-Kai Resistance, and high saving throws across the board.  

Oh, and even if the enemy _does_ manage to break your Concentration?  Shadow Blade is just a bonus action to recast.

*Offense*

_A Shadar-Kai teleports right through an invisible Wall of Force and uses Booming Shadow Blade on the one who cast it._

To get an idea of how good our DPR is (especially for sword and board that's keeping its bonus action free on most rounds), we'll want to have a baseline to compare to, so here's one:  A basic level 19 GWM/GWF Fighter has ~30.6 DPR vs AC19, or ~51.4 if they get Advantage on all their attacks.  With Action Surge, that gets bumped up to ~61.1 and ~101.7.  (If you're curious why I'm picking 19 instead of 20 for the example, it's because 19 is more representative of what you'll be doing throughout tier 3 and 4 as a Fighter.  20 is an outlier that won't be relevant for long, so is a less representative demonstration).

So if we're doing that or better on a full tank sword and board build, we can assume we're doing quite well for ourselves indeed.  Essentially getting the best of both worlds.

We get enough spell slots to not only cast but _upcast_ Shadow Blade in every single encounter of a 6-encounter adventuring day.  So what's our DPR with that at level 19?  Let's take a look.  (*All calculations are against AC19, and results are rounded to nearest tenth.  Accuracy, crit rate, etc are all accounted for*)

Level 5-6 Shadow Blade (3/day):
Normal:  51.45 DPR (~168% of baseline GWM)
Advantage:  ~79.5 DPR (~155% of baseline GWM)
Action Surge:  102.9 DPR (~168% of baseline GWM)
Action Surge Advantage:  ~159 DPR (~156% of baseline GWM)
Booming Blade Opportunity Attack:  38.3 DPR (*yes, your no-Advantage opportunity attack really is worth more DPR than 3 basic GWM/GWF attacks*)
Booming Blade Opportunity Attack w/Advantage:  ~58.6 DPR

Level 3-4 Shadow Blade (7/day):  
Normal:  42 DPR (~137% of baseline GWM)
Advantage:  ~64.6 DPR (~126% of baseline GWM)
Action Surge: 84 DPR (~136% of baseline GWM)
Action Surge Advantage: ~129.3 DPR (~127% of baseline GWM)
Booming Blade Opportunity Attack: ~35.2 DPR
Booming Blade Opportunity Attack w/ Advantage:  ~53.6 DPR

So as we can see we are beating a basic GWM/GWF Fighter by a fair amount.  Even more than this shows, actually, since we'll have an easier time getting Advantage than they will (from dim light and darkness, not to mention our familiar).  And of course our Shadow Blade / Booming Blade opportunity attacks are *far* deadlier than a normal Fighter's.

An enemy decides you're too tanky and wants to walk away from you to melee your back line?  That's when you get to say "So you have chosen death."

Note that all of this is _leaving your bonus action open_ on rounds 2+.  So you can totally resummon a dispelled or thrown shadow blade, or use Second Wind, or teleport, or whatever else you want with that bonus action, and still keep all your DPR! 

And you know what else?  Unlike that GWM/GWF Fighter, we have a *+12 initiative* thanks to 20 Dex, Alert, and Tactical Wit, which means that we not only have a higher DPR but _more rounds_ in which to apply our DPR.  Oh, and we're stealthy too, which means we might be able to get Surprise and get _two_ turns before the enemy goes... which often means they are dead and don't go at all.  Eat your heart out, Assassin.

(If you're curious what it's like before you get Shadowblade, see "Progression")

*Stealth, Initiative, and Utility*
We have +12 initiative due to max Dex, Alert, and Tactial Wit, and eventually we can even reroll our initiative with Lucky.  This is a big deal, because winning initiative is effectively an extra turn relative to Team Monster.

We have +11 Stealth, Darkvision, and things like Invisibility and (if Dimir) Pass Without Trace on our spell list, which means you're a Stealthy Boi.

Minor Illusion, Control Flames, Shape Water, and Mold Earth all share the rare distinction of lacking verbal components, which means you can get up to various shenanigans without revealing yourself.  For example, one fun trick is to animate the guardsmens' torches with Control Flames so that it looks like they're naturally sputtering out in the wind, then eviscerate them with darkness-buffed Shadow Blade while they're fumbling for their flint and steel.

You're smart and dextrous, so you can also pick up skills like Thieves Tools, Arcana, or Investigation to help you clear traps and such, if you're so inclined.  And your owl will have 120 foot Darkvision and 18 Passive Perception (with Keen Senses).

You're also a pretty safe scout; if you're discovered odds are you can face-tank whatever they throw at you, then teleport away to safety.

Anyways, you have all the tools you need for a decent chance at getting Surprise.  Combine that with your whopping +12 initiative and you're looking at getting 1-2 turns before the enemy on a regular basis.  Combine that with your high damage potential and Team Monster may not even get a turn at all.

And with all those utility cantrips and an assortment of Wizard spells and rituals, you actually have things to do out of combat, unlike a stereotypical Fighter.

*The Pressure Game*
If an enemy survives your initial onslaught, they're still between a rock and a hard place, because now they're standing in melee against you and their decision tree probably looks something like this:

- Attack the Soulknife!  But that's bad, because they're really tanky and you'll probably waste your attack.
- Move away from the Soulknife to attack their friends!  But that's bad, because that Shadow Booming Blade OA will hit like a GWM Fighter's _entire turn._
- Make ranged attacks at the Soulknife's allies!  But that's bad, because you get Disadvantage on ranged attack rolls while an enemy's within 5 feet of you, and you can't move to get a better firing angle on those allies in cover.
- Use Misty Step to get away from the Soulknife!  But that's bad, because even if you don't get counterspelled, you just used up your 1 leveled spell per turn.
- Use your cone-shaped AoE!  But you can't move to line up that many party members in the AoE or get around cover.

See what I mean?  Just _existing in melee_ as a tanky character with a hard-hitting OA puts a lot of (not all) monsters between a rock and a hard place.

*Always Ready*
It doesn't matter if you have to leave your weapons and armor at the door, because you can just wear Mage Armor and summon your weapon as a bonus action.  The only thing you can't just take with you everywhere is your shield (since, bizarrely, Weapon Bond won't let you summon one -- though ask your DM about that, there's a solid chance they think it doesn't make sense either).

*1-20 Progression*
*Spoiler: Progression*
Show

As with all my builds, this one is designed to be effective at all levels, from 1-20.

tl;dr version is that you switch your main DPR strategy as you level up.  You use Familiar Advantage + Booming Blade at 3-4, Extra Attack at 5-6, War Magic at 7-10, and Extra Attack at 11+.  And when Fighter damage scaling drops off at level 11, we circumvent that by hopping over into Wizard and scaling up with Shadow Blade.  And your Warcaster Booming Blade OA will keep you sticky throughout the whole thing.  

You wear Medium Armor + shield until you max Dex, at which point you start wearing light armor or casting Mage Armor and sneaking around.

Your defensive toolkit just sort of steadily scales up throughout the whole thing.  You're always tanky, and you always hit hard.

*Level 1-2*:
Shadar-Kai gives you a bunch of  things... charm and Necrotic resistance, darkvision, and a bonus action teleport that is not only a teleport, but gives you Resistance to all damage for a turn.  All of these things will be great throughout your entire career.

Aside from that, standard low level Fighter stuff.  Which is a good thing; Fighter has a strong 1-2.

*Level 3*
Booming Blade is a direct upgrade to your basic attack at levels 3-4 and 7-10.  And getting a Familiar to grant Advantage is an upgrade to your DPR at any level, but especially early (don't underestimate how much a difference the Help action makes to DPR when you have just 1 attack!)

Your other cantrip should be something with utility; I recommend Minor Illusion or one of the Shape element cantrips.

These things alone are better than the all-day benefit of a Champion, but on top of it you get a couple of spells. Your first should always be Shield, which you can think of as a solid extra chunk of effective hit points bolted onto your tank.  Your second can be any of the other level 1 spells I listed at the top, depending on the needs of your campaign, except for Mage Armor (which you shouldn't take until you have 20 Dex).  I usually take Absorb Elements first, but PFG&E is just stupid good if you know you're going to be fighting a ton of those creature types, and and Thunderwave is good if you have a bunch of hazards to knock people into.

*Level 4*
Warcaster makes components cease to be a hassle for you, renders your Concentration ironclad (especially since you already have Con proficiency), and gives you a _mean_ opportunity attack.

People who want to move away from you now will not only trigger the 1d8 rider from your normal attack, but also trigger a Warcaster OA, which will do another 2d8+5 damage, for a grand total of 4d8+10 in a round that they want to walk away from you.

That opportunity attack is what makes you sticky, and it'll scale throughout the entirety of your progression.  It will never cease to be a powerful and punishing deterrent to enemy movement.

It's basically a win/win scenario for you, either they stay and fight you, the impregnable tank that's going to shrug off their attacks, or they try to move away, and have their lifespans considerably shortened.  This not only helps protect your allies, but likely can help them dish out more damage too (since it makes it more troublesome for them to get out of hazard spells like Sickening Radiance or what-have-you).

*Level 5-6*
Extra Attack replaces Booming Blade as your 'default' attack for 2 levels, but Booming Blade continues to be relevant for that great Opportunity Attack (which just became greater, scaling to 4d8+Dex+2).

Elven Accuracy and 18 Dex just makes you better at everything you're already doing.

Also, Weapon Bond helps your ability to use thrown weapons.  You can drop your rapier, object interaction to draw a throwing weapon, attack, bonus action to summon the throwing weapon back, throw it again.  Then bonus action to pick up your rapier again next turn, wherever you might be.

*Level 7*
War Magic means Booming Blade because a straight upgrade to your regular attack again, from now until level 10.  People who move now take up to 9d8+18 (58.5) damage from your initial assault + OA.  More if you use Action Surge.

You also get 2nd level spells.  There's not a huge selection of great ones from the Abjuration/Evocation list for us; I usually take Warding Wind, though you might also like Darkness or even another level 1 spell.

Warding Wind does a bunch of things, but the most important is that it gives Disadvantage on ranged weapon attacks against you _and everyone behind you_ for a generous ten minutes (enough for multiple encounters in a dungeoneering scenario), while creating difficult terrain around yourself.  It basically makes it even harder for enemies to engage with you or your allies.

However, you might not want to take Warding Wind if your allies are very dependent on ranged weapon attacks themselves.  Note that ranged spell attacks like Eldritch Blast have no issue firing through Warding Wind.

*Level 8-10*
And now your Dex maxes out and that becomes "up to 9d8+21, more if you use Action Surge."  Or "up to 12d8+21, more if you use Action Surge" with Shadow Blade.

With your Dexterity maxed out, it's time to throw away your Medium Armor and start wearing Light, or even casting Mage Armor (you can swap one of your previous spells known for it).  This'll boost your ability to be stealthy, just in time for Shadow Blade.

From now on, Shadow Blade is what we're going to be spending a lot of our L2+ spell slots on.  It makes us get triple Advantage more easily, and boosts all our damage considerably.  It also lets you throw it, use a bonus action to re-summon it, and throw it again... giving you a ranged option (and also meaning the shadows you stand in don't need to be right next to someone).

*Level 11*
Now that you have 3 attacks, you're usually going to be using that instead of War Magic.

*Level 12 (WW 1)*
Extra Attack marks the last time the Fighter kit gets a big damage boost until aaaall the way at level 20... so we circumvent that by jumping into Wizard instead, accelerating our spell slot progression, which in turn gives us fat damage boosts via Shadow Blade, which upcasts _very_ well when you have 3 attacks and triple advantage.

We should immediately start picking up rituals, including Find Familiar (we can finally cast it without slots!)  

Longstrider and Feather Fall are useful spells to grab.  A vision blocker would be good too, like Silent Image or Fog Cloud. 

*Level 13 (WW 2)*
+2 to initiative from Tactical Wit, and an at-will reaction for +2 AC or (more importantly) +4 to saves.  That, combined with Indomitable and Fey Ancestry, gives you a solid chance of succeeding on any crucial save, regardless of what stat it's in.  

You hardly even care about the 'can't cast spells until your next turn' penalty, since you'll be Attacking most of the time anyway.

*Level 14 (EK 12)*
Due to the way multiclassing works in 5e, Eldritch Knight 11 / War Wizard 9 and EK 12 / War Wizard 8 would have the exact same spell slots... so we might as well grab that last level of EK for a feat.

Here I like either Alert (to all but guarantee you go first with a +12) or Lucky (which synergizes very well with Arcane Deflection and Indomitable to make it even harder to make you fail a save.  And can reroll initiative too; you've got a +7 after all).  Pick one, then take the other at 16.

We also can take this opportunity to swap out our "Find Familiar" spell known (since we now have it as a ritual, and no longer need to have it as an Eldritch Knight) for any other spell you want.  Say... Misty Step, for more teleporting.

*Level 15-20 (WW 3-8)*
From here on out you just keep scaling up your spell slots for more and higher level Shadow Blades, which will keep your damage going up and up.  And you keep expanding your spell list with a larger utility toolbox for dealing with any situation.

Arcane Recovery will keep scaling, which is just great because every extra level 1 slot is another Shield or Absorb Elements.

Some particularly noteworthy spells are Counterspell (because enemy spells are bad) and Phantom Steed (which can dash 200 feet to deliver you to the enemy when combat starts, making it even more difficult to kite you).  

There's also a bunch of useful non-Concentration tools, like Pyrotechnics, See Invisibility, Fire Shield, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door, etc.

*Spoiler: Some level 2 spell suggestions*
Show

I like Pyrotechnics as a Concentration-free vision blocker.

See Invisibility is a Concentration-free way to, well, see invisible things.

Invisibility can help out with your infiltration/ambush skills.

Mirror Image is Concentration-free too, but I think it's pretty situational.  See, Mirror Images can get hit _even if an enemy misses you_, so they might not actually block many hits at all. 

You might also consider a save-or-be-screwed spell to go with Eldritch Strike.  Though I'd usually rather just hit them again; 'dead' is a really good status effect.


*Spoiler: Some level 3 spell suggestions*
Show


Counterspell is Counterspell, and will help you tank / negate spells.  Take it.  

Dispel Magic is useful too.

Phantom Steed and Leomund's Tiny Hut are important rituals that you should absolutely get.

Thunder Step lets you take a friend with you when you teleport.

Fireball might not be what it was 13 levels ago, but it is still relevant for clearing mook swarms.  Mooks never actually stop mattering in 5e. 

Bestow Curse doesn't take Concentration if upcast to 5th.  Major Image becomes permanent if upcast to 6th.

Sleet Storm can lock down a _huge_ area of effect, but eats Concentration.


*Spoiler: Some level 4 spell suggestions*
Show


Fire Shield is Concentration-free elemental resistance and retribution damage for 10 minutes.

Dimension Door is a teleport that can take someone with you (like Thunder Step, but longer).

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere can shelter an ally in an emergency.

Banishment is a good save-or-lose to go with Eldritch Strike.

Greater Invisibility is an alternative to Shadow Blade for some situations.




*Analysis of Eldritch Knight spells*
*Spoiler: Analysis of Eldritch Knight spells*
Show


*Spoiler: Color Key*
Show


*Better
Gold
Light Blue
Blue
Green
Orange
Red
**Worse
*


*Abjuration/Evocation Spell Choices*
*
Shield*
You should take this spell on every Eldritch Knight you build, with zero exceptions.

The thing that makes Shield so much better than most defensive reactions is it's guaranteed to be worth the full damage value of at least one hit (since you decide to use it AFTER the hit is confirmed), plus it lasts for the rest of the round, thus helping to protect you from multiattack, mook swarms, or the like.  Also, remember that the more AC you already have, the more valuable each additional point of AC is in terms of effective health.  This chart should give you a rough idea of what I mean:


Chart leaves out crits since the way they affect the curve is monster-specific, but this should give a general idea.

Anyways, don't just spam it all the the time; think about how much effective hit points it's likely to be worth on a given round.  You only have so many spell slots, particularly early on.

*Absorb Elements*
This does the most important thing that a Bear-barian does; cut the big burst damage of things like dragon breath and the like by half.  The fact that it boosts your melee damage afterward is a cherry on top.

This isn't quite as valuable as Shield, but it's still a must-have at later levels where elemental damage bursts can be quite large (thus giving this spell a high value in effective hit points).

*Burning Hands*
Fighters don't usually have AoEs, so that gives this a niche, but the damage is modest enough at the level you get it that it's fairly situational; you need to make sure enough enemies are clustered in order for it to be worth using.

Make sure to remember that cones and cubes _don't_ follow the 50% coverage rule.  The image on the left is the area you cover, not the right.


*Chromatic Orb*  Don't cast this spell as an Eldritch Knight.  Just make an attack instead.  Throw your weapon if you have to.

*Earth Tremor*
Friendly fire potential and negligible damage, but on the other hand at least it knocks down everyone around you and makes some difficult terrain, and if you're the sole frontliner the friendly fire isn't too likely.

Still, too situational for my tastes.  You don't have that many spells known as an EK.

*Mage Armor
*"Mage Armor?  Are you kidding?  But I already have all the armor proficiencies!"
Yes, Mage Armor.  There's basically 2 ways you can see Mage Armor; either comparing it to light armor or full plate (you won't even consider half-plate because you'll be using 20 Dex).
If you're comparing to Light Armor, this spell grants +1 AC and for 8 hours.  That's like half a Divine Shield, except it lasts 48x as long, and doesn't take Concentration.
If you're comparing to Full Plate, this spell allows you to remove Disadvantage on Stealth for 8 hours... and reap the benefits of investing in Dex instead of Strength.

I think either of those are decent uses of a spell.  Not something I'd cast before maxing Dex, but yeah.  Unless of course you have some slick magic armor that makes this obsolete.

Also, it allows you to be ready for a fight even if you're in a ballgown at a noble gala or something.  An Eldritch Knight is like a Monk in that they don't care that much if they're caught unprepared.

*Magic Missile*
So as far as single target direct damage spells go, Magic Missile is the best for you.  It doesn't care about your Intelligence score at all, hits automatically, and deals the best damage type.

The only trouble is that single target direct damage spells aren't very good for you.  But if you take one, you take this one.

*Protection from Evil and Good*
_If_ you're fighting a creature type that this applies to (almost half the creature types in the game), this is a much better version of the second level spell Blur.  It lasts 10 times as long, provides the same defense against Attacks, and additional defenses against nasty status effects.

This should basically be used as a pre-cast if you're planning to fight a bunch of demons or something.  Rating depends on how likely you are to fight the relevant creature types in the campaign, and how likely you are to know you're fighting them before you actually do (so you can pre-cast it).

*Thunderwave*
When it comes to AoEs, it's a choice between this and Burning Hands.  This one has a larger area, better damage type, and a useful rider, but does a bit less damage.  I personally prefer Thunderwave, since I'm often using it for its knockback as much as anything else.   But you can go with whichever suits you better.

*Aganazzar's Scorcher,* *Snilloc's Snowball Swarm
*You're better off with an upcast Thunderwave or Burning Hands than these.*

**Witch Bolt, Melf's Acid Arrow*
Just mathematically terrible.

*Scorching Ray* 
An upcast Magic Missile will outdamage this unless an enemy's AC is particularly low, or you have Advantage.  And it's a worse damage type.  Generally speaking if you want to roll attack rolls at something, _use a weapon_.

*Arcane Lock
*The best combat use for this spell is basically to use it to lock a dungeon door, then have your party move back and forth through it and closing it after themselves, using it kind of like an unusually low level "Wall" spell that your allies can pass through.  The trouble of course being that you can only use it in places where there's already a door, and that it costs 25hp.  *Really* situational.  But not totally worthless.

*Continual Flame * I once heard someone say "why would you cast this if you could just take the Light cantrip?"  Well, two reasons:  
1) If you upcast it to 3rd level, it illuminates magical Darkness (as all lights created by a third level slot or higher do)
2) 50gp and a spell slot on a downtime day you're _not adventuring_ is cheaper than a cantrip known slot.

That said, you don't exactly have a lot of spells known to toss around; it's much better to have the party Cleric or something use this for you.  There's no point to having it if anyone else in the party has it.

*Warding Wind*
I wrote a whole thread about this one.

Lots of little situational uses that add up to it being quite good overall, and it's better on a frontliner than on a backline Wizard (since it impedes ranged attacks against everyone behind you).  It can, however, be problematic if your teammates are particularly reliant on Ranged *Weapon* Attacks (Eldritch Blast and the like won't mind), so keep your party comp in mind.

*Darkness*
Darkness is a good spell that sometimes gets a bad rap because some people *misuse it* in a way that is actively detrimental to their party.

So let me lay out how it works.  First thing:  if someone can't see you, you get Advantage against them.  If you can't see them, you get Disadvantage against them.  So if both sides can't see each other, it cancels out.

So you might be wondering "what's the point?"  Well, let me give you a few ideas.

Some uses for Darkness are...
- Many spells and abilities require being able to see the target in order to target them at all.  Beholder eye rays, for example.
- You can use it to cancel Advantage and Disadvantage.  For example, a Barbarian ally in Darkness won't give anyone Advantage when they use Reckless Attack.
- When allies have things like Alert, Devil's Sight, True Sight, or the like, Darkness doesn't cancel out, it gives them an edge.
- When you have allies who can Hide as a bonus action on your side.
- Enemies can't make Opportunity Attacks against things they can't see.

Some bad times to use Darkness are...
- When your _ally_ needs to see something in order to target it with a key spell or ability.
- When your team has the Advantage or the enemy has the Disadvantage, and you cancel it out.  
- When your enemy has a positioning disadvantage and is locked down by the threat of OAs.

Don't be that guy who uses Darkness to wreck _their own_ party.  Think before you cast it.

*Gust of Wind*
I like Warding Wind better.

*Shatter*
Does the same damage as an upcast Thunderwave, but farther away and without the rider.  It damages objects, so it's good for breaking floors and such.

*Pass Without Trace*
If you decided to cheese out with a Ravnica background, you can take this as an Abjuration spell to give +10 to Stealth for your entire party, which makes it easy to get Surprise.

*Non-Evocation/Abjuration spells:*
*Find Familiar*
Okay, so you can't get this as a ritual until you start taking Wizard levels, but I still think it's worth it.  The familiar you want in the majority of situations is the owl.

An owl can swoop in, use the Help action to give you Triple Advantage on your Booming Blade, then swoop out to a safe position using Flyby (remember, you _don't_ need to stay next to the enemy after using Help!).  You want to have them falling back to someplace with 3/4 or full cover, far enough away from PCs that they won't get hit from AoEs, or _at least_ flying out of melee height.  Basically, don't make it 'cheap' to kill your familiar, make it as inconvenient as possible.

Your familiar can also use their actions for things other than Help, such as dropping ball bearings, or feeding a downed teammate a potion (you can make them for just 25gp a pop with XGtE Herbalism rules).  They're just extra action economy and that's great.

Your owl familiar also increases your detection abilities, with 120 foot darkvision and 18 passive perception (w/ Keen Senses).  It also can carry a Control-Flames-enahnced Hooded or Bullseye Lantern in combat, so that enemies are lit up but your less expendable party members aren't (you know, basically the reason Treantmonk has an entire video about Dancing Lights, except without you actually using Dancing Lights).

*Important Note:*  When you get your first Wizard level, you should learn this spell again, but as a ritual.  Then you can retrain the Eldritch Knight spell known for Misty Step or something when you take your final EK level.

*Shadow Blade*
Unless you happen upon some sick Legendary magic weapon that doesn't stack with this, this is where you're getting your big damage from.  Note that Shadow Blade only really starts picking up steam in a big way once you get your third attack; before that your bread and butter is going to be War Magic Booming Blade with Flyby Triple Advantage.

*Misty Step
*A good thing to always have prepared, since you're a melee character and that means you don't like being kited of controlled.  This'll let you get through Plant Growth or Walls of Force or other such pesky things that are between you and the guy you want to stab in the face.

You can already do this with your Shadar-Kai feature of course, but this lets you do it _more times_.


*Variants:
*- You can take the Defense style instead of Dueling to get even tankier.  (The squishier your party is relative to you, the more I value the offense to demand enemy attention.  And vice versa)
- Any elf subrace will do well, Shadar-Kai is just a particularly nice one.
- Mark of Shadows is another particularly nice elf subrace which will crank your stealth game up to 11 with pseudo-Expertise in Stealth, Invisibility, Pass Without Trace, and an extra no-Verbal-components cantrip.  Fluff lines up well, too.
- EK 11/WW 9 will lose you a feat, and won't gain you any more base slots, but it'll give you +1 Arcane Recovery and 5th level spells known (but only at exactly level 20).
- You can take Lucky, Alert, and Resilient in any order.
- If you want a Ravnica background, Dimir is a powerful choice here, as it gives you Pass Without Trace to make you a _really_ stealthy boi.  Better yet, PWT gets added to your Abjuration/Evocation list.
- Since none of the Eldritch Knight spells we picked really depend on Intelligence, you can actually invest in a different mental stat and go off into all kinds of different spellcasting classes after level 11, not just Wizard.  In fact, I might be posting some builds in that vein in the future...  *Edit*:  Earlier, I spoke a bit about other versions of this build that multiclass into things other than the Wizard here.

----------


## Skylivedk

Big fan of the Soulknife!

Some questions:

1) what considerations are you making since you prefer the extra feat to knowing level 5 spells? - ironically, the gif is only possible with a split of 11/9 (to get Wall of Force) instead of 12/8. If you did go for 11/9 which feat would you rather miss?

- and sooooo many of the level 5 spells are tasty (and flavorful in a mind over matter kind of way)!
Rary's Telepathic Bond (ritual)
Synaptic State (especially as a Sorcerer, see below)
Scrying
Planar Binding
Animate Objects
Bigby's Hand
Wall of Force
Dream
Farstep

2) I really like the War Wizard's added tankiness... But I can't help, but look at 9 Sorcerer's level 5 spells with Quicken and potentially 6 enemies with disadvantage to their saves twice (from Eldritch Strike + action surge + quicken). As a Divine Soul, you'd also have some boost to saves, the very nice tanking ability of Spirit Guardians and a way to fill out those bonus actions (with Quicken and sometimes Spiritual Weapon).

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## LudicSavant

> Big fan of the Soulknife!





> If you did go for 11/9 which feat would you rather miss?


  Hmm.  Maybe Resilient?  You have +4 to wis, indomitable, lucky, and fey ancestry... you're fairly resistant to domination without it.  Dropping Alert seems like a possibility too -- you'd still have +7 initiative and the ability to reroll it.

I really like Lucky here because it + Arcane Deflection means you have a solid chance of making an important save with _any_ stat.  




> ironically, the gif is only possible with a split of 11/9 (to get Wall of Force) instead of 12/8.


My intention was to represent an EK _escaping_ a Wall of Force (usually something that outright shuts down Fighters) rather than casting one themselves.  I shall edit the caption to make that clearer.  

I feel one of the strengths of the build is its relative lack of weaknesses and counters compared to 'typical' melee Fighters, who often find themselves kited or locked down.  




> 1) what considerations are you making since you prefer the extra feat to knowing level 5 spells?.


If I went for the level 5 spells known, I wouldn't get them until exactly level 20.  I'd rather just have the feat early, especially since we get so much use out of those upcast slots anyways (Shadow Blade upcasts very well when you have a lot of attacks).




> I really like the War Wizard's added tankiness... But I can't help, but look at 9 Sorcerer's level 5 spells with Quicken and potentially 6 enemies with disadvantage to their saves twice (from Eldritch Strike + action surge + quicken). As a Divine Soul, you'd also have some boost to saves, the very nice tanking ability of Spirit Guardians and a way to fill out those bonus actions (with Quicken and sometimes Spiritual Weapon).


Oh yeah.  There are a lot of multiclass possibilities here, precisely because you _don't_ really need Intelligence all that much (though it certainly helps for landing a Counterspell).

I mention a few non-War-Wizard possibilities in this thread.

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## Lysimarchos

> ...The Soulknife...


_Very_ interesting build. I'm definitely going to play it. Eventually. One day. God I have too many builds I want to play.

Would it be a good idea to take a few levels of War Wizard before getting Eldritch Knight 11? Like 2 levels of War Wizard at level 5. Or is it better to get to level 11 as quickly as possible for that sweet third attack?

EDIT: Where is the gif from, by the way?

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## Klorox

> Here's a _very_ tanky Dex Fighter that still gets to dish out more damage than many GWMers despite wielding a shield (and Shield, and ironclad saves, and etc).  Best of both worlds.  I've taken to calling this style of build a "Soulknife" build because they can summon all their weapons and armor, using Shadow Blade (or Weapon Bond) and Mage Armor.
> 
> If you ever wanted a hypertank Fighter who was ready for war to break out even while they were wearing their wedding dress, then this is for you!  (What, you say it's weird to worry about how battle-ready you are at your wedding?  Then why does a marriage Ceremony increase AC?  Explain that!)
> 
> Like all my builds, this is designed to be effective at all levels, from 1-20.
> 
> *Build 12:  The Soulknife*
> 
> *Elf (Shadar Kai) Eldritch Knight 11 / War Wizard 2 / EK 12 / WW 8
> ...


So, I thought this whole "soul knife" sounded kinda cool when it was teased a few times earlier in this thread, but I had no idea what it actually was.

I've also been working on a character concept of an eldritch knight that dips war wizard. LMFAO!

You put things together so much more eloquently than I ever could have, and I love it.  Great job.

Do you think this is superior to a straight classed bladesinger though (or something like fighter 2/bladesinger X)? That was my debate.

----------


## Quietus

> So, I thought this whole "soul knife" sounded kinda cool when it was teased a few times earlier in this thread, but I had no idea what it actually was.
> 
> I've also been working on a character concept of an eldritch knight that dips war wizard. LMFAO!
> 
> You put things together so much more eloquently than I ever could have, and I love it.  Great job.
> 
> Do you think this is superior to a straight classed bladesinger though (or something like fighter 2/bladesinger X)? That was my debate.


I suspect it depends on what you want out of your build. A straight classed bladesinger, or one that has a minor fighter dip, will rely more on its casting, using melee as a fallback. The soul knife build here is primarily martial, using some magical abilities to bolster its weapon attacks and defenses. Different approaches.

----------


## Evaar

> *Build 12:  The Soulknife*


Big fan of this particular build and similar EK/WW Dex tanks. I've been toying around with a variant of my own, likely not as optimal as this one, but I think it can compete solidly at any table that allows the options.

Instead of Elf, you go Tiefling, taking the Feral stats (+2 Dex +1 Int) AND the Lineage of Levistus options. You can do both of these per Crawford, so you've got good stats, inherent fire resistance, and access to Armor of Agathys. You start with an odd Constitution score because, as soon as you can afford it, you're picking up Infernal Constitution so you add poison and cold to your list of resistances, plus you get advantage on saving throws against the poisoned condition. Sadly Flames of Phlegethos isn't likely to provide sufficient value; though you get some synergy with your Greenflame Blade, the half stat going to Int or Cha just isn't going to be a useful investment. If you like, you can start with a 17 Dex and take Resilient (Dex) at 6 or 8.

Otherwise, you're following Ludic's instructions. Will probably have a bit less DPR and more vulnerability to certain crowd control spells, but will do better mitigating blasters without expending resources. In my experience, fire, cold, and poison all come up a lot so they are valuable resistances to have.

AND Levistus is a fencer. So having his lineage and being a dex fighter with a rapier works extra well!

----------


## LudicSavant

*Build 12b:  House Phiarlan Soulknife*

_One of these clowns is going to manifest a Shadow Blade and assassinate you._

If you want to play the Soulknife in Eberron, you've got a fantastic and very thematic option:  the Mark of Shadows Elf.

Why is this race so fitting?  Well, in addition to the fluff lining up perfectly and all the usual reasons elves are strong, it gives you an extra cantrip known (Minor Illusion), a free casting of Invisibility 1/day, *+1d4 to all Stealth checks,* and *Pass Without Trace as an Abjuration spell on your spell list*, which means you can get it as an Eldritch Knight spell.  Oh, and +1d4 to Perform, so that you can be a very scary clown.

What this means is that your stealth game goes up to 11.  +1d4 to stealth checks is nearly as valuable as Expertise, Invisibility will give you Advantage on stealth for an hour, and Pass Without Trace is... well, it gives the _entire party_ +10 to Stealth.  Everything I said about the usefulness of stealth and surprise for the Soulknife, you do, but much better.  You're basically a better assassin than the Assassin, while being a full tank.

You build it pretty much like the Soulknife described above, with the following alterations:

Starting Stats: Str 8 / Dex 17 / Con 14 / Int 14 / Wis 12 / Cha 9
Spells:  Take Pass Without Trace as your first Abjuration spell known at 7th

That's it.  Now you get to do all your Soulknife stuff, except with +21+1d4 to Stealth.  And giving all your allies +10 to Stealth.  And an extra slot for Invisibility.  Enjoy killing things before they get a turn.

----------


## Evaar

> *Build 12b:  House Phiarlan Soulknife*


You can also play a House Orien Courier. If something absolutely must get where it's going, no one's better.

+2 Dex +1 floating, 35 base movement speed, access to Pass Without Trace, one free Misty Step per long rest and, eventually, access to Freedom of Movement. You don't get the 1d4 to Stealth rolls, but you do get it for Acrobatics for when you need to backflip through a Death Course.

----------


## LudicSavant

> You can also play a House Orien Courier. If something absolutely must get where it's going, no one's better.
> 
> +2 Dex +1 floating, 35 base movement speed, access to Pass Without Trace, one free Misty Step per long rest and, eventually, access to Freedom of Movement. You don't get the 1d4 to Stealth rolls, but you do get it for Acrobatics for when you need to backflip through a Death Course.


That's a great way to take it for a non-Elf version.   :Small Smile:

----------


## DevanAvalon

> *Build 12b:  House Phiarlan Soulknife*
> 
> _One of these clowns is going to manifest a Shadow Blade and assassinate you._
> 
> If you want to play the Soulknife in Eberron, you've got a fantastic and very thematic option:  the Mark of Shadows Elf.
> 
> Why is this race so fitting?  Well, in addition to the fluff lining up perfectly and all the usual reasons elves are strong, it gives you an extra cantrip known (Minor Illusion), a free casting of Invisibility 1/day, *+1d4 to all Stealth checks,* and *Pass Without Trace as an Abjuration spell on your spell list*, which means you can get it as an Eldritch Knight spell.  Oh, and +1d4 to Perform, so that you can be a very scary clown.
> 
> What this means is that your stealth game goes up to 11.  +1d4 to stealth checks is nearly as valuable as Expertise, Invisibility will give you Advantage on stealth for an hour, and Pass Without Trace is... well, it gives the _entire party_ +10 to Stealth.  Everything I said about the usefulness of stealth and surprise for the Soulknife, you do, but much better.  You're basically a better assassin than the Assassin, while being a full tank.
> ...


Why the boost to Wis compared to the non-Marked version?

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## LudicSavant

> Why the boost to Wis compared to the non-Marked version?


Because you can't boost Con from 15 to 16 with a +1 from your race, you lower it to 14, and then spend the points elsewhere.

----------


## DevanAvalon

> Because you can't boost Con from 15 to 16 with a +1 from your race, you lower it to 14, and then spend the points elsewhere.


Ah, that's fair. I have rolled stats, so that's less of a concern for me and thought something major changed, aha.

Can I make another build request of you, perhaps? Some sort of Sorcerer gish that isn't Sorcadin. I have a Hex 3/Shadow Sorc 17 build that I theory crafted, but I was wondering what a master like you would come up with.

----------


## Draz74

Are you still planning to detail the Sharp Shooter Samurai, eventually, Ludic?

----------


## Lysimarchos

> Ah, that's fair. I have rolled stats, so that's less of a concern for me and thought something major changed, aha.
> 
> Can I make another build request of you, perhaps? Some sort of Sorcerer gish that isn't Sorcadin. I have a Hex 3/Shadow Sorc 17 build that I theory crafted, but I was wondering what a master like you would come up with.


Speaking of Sorcerer gish builds, I was thinking of maybe making a Fighter 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer 18 build to make a sort of Final Fantasy Red Mage. It can use both Black and White Magic (Sorcerer and Cleric spells), and Action Surge, Twinned Spell and Quickened Spell replicate the Dualcast ability.

----------


## Quietus

> Ah, that's fair. I have rolled stats, so that's less of a concern for me and thought something major changed, aha.
> 
> Can I make another build request of you, perhaps? Some sort of Sorcerer gish that isn't Sorcadin. I have a Hex 3/Shadow Sorc 17 build that I theory crafted, but I was wondering what a master like you would come up with.


I've been toying mentally with the idea of a Dwarven melee sorcerer - I'm sure there's someone who can refine this, but I'll put out the skeleton of the build below.  Note I am going to use the recent UA feat Shield Training, but you could do this just as easily flexing your point buy a little and going two handed instead.

Mountain dwarf : Medium armor, +2 str/con, other Dwarf traits.   Starting stats 16/10/16/10/10/14
Dragon bloodline sorcerer; take average HP each level, for 8 HP every left after 1st.  I'd grab one of the fire related dragons to synergize with Green-Flame Blade.
Feats : At 4, grab Shield Master. At 8, grab Heavily Armored.  Bump Str with each feat, you now have the ability to wear plate + shield.  From there, consider War Caster and +cha.
If you don't have access to UA, I'd still grab Heavily Armored, then it just pulls the other feats/ASIs forward, still perfectly viable.
Metamagic : Twin and Quicken are the key to what you're trying to do.

Your main offense is Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade, burning spell slots for the ability to Twin or Quicken these.  Even as early as level 3, if you burn all your SP, you can attack three times in a turn if you have two opponents next to each other, for a standard hit + BB on each, plus a standard hit on one and charisma worth of fire damage to the other.  Your offense only goes up from there.  You'll rely on Twin as often as possible at lower levels, as it's the cheaper option, but the higher level you get, the more freedom you have to spam attacks.

Your primary consideration for spells will be defense and buffs.  Shield, Absorb Elements, Blur/Mirror Image, etc - all very viable options.  Haste is there, but you get less from it than anyone else.  If you do get Warcaster, however, then it may be a worthwhile pick if you have other people in your party who can really make use of it.  Twinning Haste is expensive, but if you have a Paladin and a Rogue in the party, they'll love you for it.  Cantrips, I'd pick up something for a ranged attack (Firebolt is good here), and Blade Ward for the purpose of Quickening in a pinch, plus of course Booming and Green-Flame blades.

If you have access to Xanathar's as well as SCAG, Shadow Blade is really good.  You can potentially tag two enemies with it the turn you cast it (Twin BB), and three every turn after that.  I'd been considering this build for AL, so I wasn't planning on combining these, but it's definitely an option if you have a permissive home game.

Note that you can vary this build considerably, as well.  For Race, you can go with anything that would either bump Dex (in which case you want Mage Armor) or provides you armor proficiency.  Drow would be ideal for the dex build, giving you +2 dex/+1 cha and proficiency with rapiers.  Hobgoblins allow you to do an "iron wizard" take on this, grabbing you proficiency with martial weapons of your choice, bumping Con, and opening you up to Moderately Armored at level 4 to grab both medium armor and shields while bumping your str or dex to 16.  You can also change up the subclass, losing the HP and fire damage bump in exchange for access to a whole range of additional spells, including several that will allow you to use your bonus action without Quicken.  Twinning Shield of Faith, for instance, is never a bad move, and Spiritual Weapon is always valuable.  Spirit Guardians is also an excellent pick for this setup, even if your save DC isn't terribly high.  It's still automatic damage every turn, and you're potentially a heavily armored, extremely durable combatant capable of weathering and deflecting blows while encouraging opponents to keep attacking you.

::Edit:: I may have gotten a little tunnel-visioned on this one, as well.  My original thought when I created this was to make a single classed melee sorcerer.  However, this build would benefit greatly from a two level Hexblade dip, as so many do.  Medium armor, shields, martial proficiency, and Charisma-SAD makes this an obscenely good pick and opens up a lot of additional options to you.

----------


## ftafp

I just realized I never posted Lung Wang here although given that he's more of a Pun-Pun build than a playable one I don't know if he applies.

Maybe some day soon I'll post Lung Wang the Bureaucrat here (AKA Lung Wang the significantly less cheesy) along with Moseph Dwarfington of Moseph Dwarfington's Ancient Dwarven Artifacts

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## LudicSavant

> Are you still planning to detail the Sharp Shooter Samurai, eventually, Ludic?


Yep!  It's still on the 'to-do' list.

----------


## Corran

> Yep!  It's still on the 'to-do' list.


What about your other idea about maddening darkness and mind  blank? That sounded interesting.
*Spoiler: half baked thoughts*
Show

I had totally missed the synergy there before I see you mention this, and you got me thinking about it. The radius is good enough that the only thing you need to make this work well imo, is:
1) having a party with good ranged attacks, and
2) have a way for the pc's to see through the darkness
Funnily enough you can solve these two problems by simply having enough characters take 2 levels of warlock, but I was thinking of other ways to go around this and thus make the tactics work well. And the only thing I could come up with was glyph of warding and true seeing (a bit iffy, but I think it works). So this whole thing probably becomes part of some scry and die tactics, where after scrying enough beforehand, you buff your allies with true seeing (from glyph of warding), teleport into the location you've been scrying beforehand, and if they are not devils you are good to go. And by the time you cast it you are down only one 7th and one 8th level slot. Which is a bit underwhelming now that I think of it, as being an evoker simply reduces the time and gold needed to pull this off. So I am wondering if you've found a better way to pull this off, ideally without all this preparation time and without relying on rulings of glyph of warding. Probably some familiar (maybe even go up to 3 warlock levels for an imp, that would be good, so we can keep it safe-ish inside the darkness) would allow us to see through the spell easily enough, but what we'd really need would be a way to provide sight for our allies too. Ideally one that does not take too much set up time, cause if we could pull this off on the spot, that would be grand.

Anyway, really curious to see what you'll come up with regarding maddening darkness.

----------


## LudicSavant

> What about your other idea about maddening darkness and mind  blank? That sounded interesting.


Oh, I was basically just mentioning something my Evoker Wizard was doing in my Saturday game.  She just picked up 8th level spells, so she picked Maddening Darkness.

Maddening Darkness creates a massive 120 foot diameter area of darkness, plus a healthy 8d8 psychic damage per round (+5 on the first one from Empowered Evocation).  And with Sculpt Spells, I can just put my whole party in it... except for myself (since Sculpt Spells technically only lets you target OTHER creatures).  However, since it's psychic damage, I can just use Mind Blank on myself, and then hang out in there with the party.

It's one of the many  reasons why I keep telling people that Evokers are an unusually strong control subclass, not just a raw damage class.

The other party members include a Hexblade/Echo Knight archer (with Devil's Sight), a Lore Bard, and a 3rd party Monk subclass.

----------


## Klorox

> Oh, I was basically just mentioning something my Evoker Wizard was doing in my Saturday game.  She just picked up 8th level spells, so she picked Maddening Darkness.
> 
> Maddening Darkness creates a massive 120 foot diameter area of darkness, plus a healthy 8d8 psychic damage per round (+5 on the first one from Empowered Evocation).  And with Sculpt Spells, I can just put my whole party in it... except for myself (since Sculpt Spells technically only lets you target OTHER creatures).  However, since it's psychic damage, I can just use Mind Blank on myself, and then hang out in there with the party.
> 
> *It's one of the many  reasons why I keep telling people that Evokers are an unusually strong control subclass, not just a raw damage class.*
> 
> The other party members include a Hexblade/Echo Knight archer (with Devil's Sight), a Lore Bard, and a 3rd party Monk subclass.


Next chance I get to play a wizard, if I decide against Bladesinger, I very well may go evoker.  You, and others in this thread, have really opened my eyes on them.

Back to the Soul Knife: Why not take the 2 war wizard levels after getting to EK 5? The wizard levels really give you such a bonus on defense and I'd hate to wait until after reaching fighter 11 to gain them.

JMO.

Side note: clear some PM's @LudicSavant. I tried to PM you and your box is full.

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## LudicSavant

> clear some PM's @LudicSavant. I tried to PM you and your box is full.


You guys send me so many!  Okay, cleared some space.  :Small Smile: 




> Next chance I get to play a wizard, if I decide against Bladesinger, I very well may go evoker.  You, and others in this thread, have really opened my eyes on them.


Yeah.  They have a lot more going for them than just sculpting Fireballs.




> Back to the Soul Knife: Why not take the 2 war wizard levels after getting to EK 5? The wizard levels really give you such a bonus on defense and I'd hate to wait until after reaching fighter 11 to gain them.


EK progression is just really good up to level 11.  By the time you get EK 5 / Wizard 2, an EK 7 would have had 2nd level spells, War Magic (which is quite good at 7-10), a Dex bump, and Elven Accuracy.  And they'd get full Dex and their third attack earlier.

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## Evaar

> Back to the Soul Knife: Why not take the 2 war wizard levels after getting to EK 5? The wizard levels really give you such a bonus on defense and I'd hate to wait until after reaching fighter 11 to gain them.


I could see a case for doing it after 8. That's when you can learn Shadow Blade, and you've also picked up War Magic which means your cantrip/attack damage will continue to grow when you hit character level 11 even though you're only Fighter 9. 

Fighter 9 and Fighter 10 are okay but not incredible individually, so you don't miss much by delaying them. Fighter 11 gets your 3rd attack which is a big deal, but you're mitigating that a little bit by continuing to use War Magic.

----------


## LudicSavant

> I could see a case for doing it after 8. That's when you can learn Shadow Blade, and you've also picked up War Magic which means your cantrip/attack damage will continue to grow when you hit character level 11 even though you're only Fighter 9. 
> 
> Fighter 9 and Fighter 10 are okay but not incredible individually, so you don't miss much by delaying them. Fighter 11 gets your 3rd attack which is a big deal, but you're mitigating that a little bit by continuing to use War Magic.


That could work.

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## ftafp

Ludic, I'm curious how you personally would go about building a "Master Delegator" who focuses entirely on getting others to fight their battles for them.

Right now I'm toying around with an Order Cleric 1/Glamour Bard X concept focused around support, enchantment and minionmancy. Hypothetically, if you can use Suggestion to convince an enemy to switch sides in the middle of a battle, they should be able to make an attack with their reaction as they're now an ally

----------


## x3n0n

> not to mention that you can threaten Sentinel OAs from multiple positions at once.





> Also, I don't think PAM's extra trigger for a Opp Att applies to your Echo (*or Sentinel's*) ...





> As far as I can tell, this is correct.


I missed the bolded bit the first time I read this exchange (having already decided that PAM was not a combo with Echo Knight, and thinking the clarification had nothing to do with the build as posted), and thought I should highlight it.

"When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echos space."
plus
"When a creature *within 5 feet of you* makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature"

If I'm reading that right, an attack from someone next to your echo (but not next to you) doesn't trigger a Sentinel pseudo-OA reaction.

Agreed? If so, should you strike the quoted sentence from the original post?

That said, Sentinel is still doing a lot of work here. The "stopper" and Disengage-proof effects still apply to the echo, and all 3 still apply to you as a durable tank, regardless of where the echo is. (Also, if they attack the echo while standing next to you for some reason, you're golden. :) )

I'm starting with this build from level 1 later this week, and I expect to have a blast. Thanks!

----------


## LudicSavant

> If I'm reading that right, an attack from someone next to your echo (but not next to you) doesn't trigger a Sentinel pseudo-OA reaction.


  Right.  But...




> Agreed? If so, should you strike the quoted sentence from the original post?


  No.  When I say Sentinel OAs, I mean precisely that -- opportunity attacks using the Sentinel feat.  *Not* the other reaction that the Sentinel feat enables.

In other words, the quoted sentence is referring to the ability from Sentinel bullet point #1 (which is an OA), whereas you're thinking about the ability from Sentinel bullet point #3 (which is not an OA).




> I'm starting with this build from level 1 later this week, and I expect to have a blast. Thanks!


Sounds like fun, let me know how it goes!   :Small Smile:

----------


## x3n0n

> When I say Sentinel OAs, I mean precisely that -- opportunity attacks using the Sentinel feat.  *Not* the other reaction that the Sentinel feat enables.


That makes sense. I was confused because the things that work are really just OAs, not "Sentinel OAs". (That is, a less-than-perfectly-rules-savvy reader might well misread the phrase in the original build post as shorthand for "the reaction attack provided by Sentinel" vs "the 'normal' attack of opportunity plus the 'no movement' rider from Sentinel".)




> Sounds like fun, let me know how it goes!


Will do. I'm building up quite the suite of Fun and Effective characters inspired by this thread: a Celestial generalist in a DM-less solo campaign, a frontline Arcana Cleric and a spear-and-shield PAM Paladin side-by-side in a different DM-less board-game-like campaign, and this new Sentinel Fighter. As I mentioned, we're starting at 1, so it'll be a while before the Barb features come online--but it's my first Echo Knight, so it will be a fun learning experience all the way through the progression.

Thanks again.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Nod_Hero

> Posted this in another thread.  Essentially an elusive glass iron cannon who dishes out buckets of damage while simultaneously doing quite a lot to protect teammates from harm and lock down foes.
> 
> *Build 11: The Ancestral Avenger*


Thank you so much for this. I finally found something "weird enough" to play in our War of the Burning Sky campaign. 




> *Variants/Notes:*
> - The reality of Echo Barbarian builds is that they require Strength (for Reckless Attack), Dexterity (since you can't rage in heavy armor), and Constitution (for Echo Knight features), which limits our ability to meet multiclassing requirements without seriously impacting the build... unless of course you roll high for stats.  In that case, you can improve this build further via multiclassing -- for example, Hexblade 1 (requires Cha 13) and Gloomstalker 3 (requires Wis 13) are both very powerful and synergistic additions which further add to the voodoo flavor.  The only reason I don't take them is because of the pesky multiclassing stat requirements.
> ___
> 
> Let me know what you think.


I rolled really well for stats and since the team is all non-human I went with a Leonin for this one, really looking forward to trying it out. Since its replacing another character its starting at level 9 [3 AG/ 6 EcK].
All characters get a free racial feat in this campaign so it has a 20 STR, 16  DEX, 18 CON and has the Sentinel and Great Weapon Master feats.
I was looking at the Crusher feat from the UA_Feats2020 for next, any opinions on that one?

----------


## HPisBS

> Thank you so much for this. I finally found something "weird enough" to play in our War of the Burning Sky campaign. 
> 
> I rolled really well for stats and since the team is all non-human I went with a Leonin for this one, really looking forward to trying it out. Since its replacing another character its starting at level 9 [3 AG/ 6 EcK].
> All characters get a free racial feat in this campaign so it has a 20 STR, 16  DEX, 18 CON and has the Sentinel and Great Weapon Master feats.
> I was looking at the Crusher feat from the UA_Feats2020 for next, any opinions on that one?


Crusher makes for some pretty good control, and I'd definitely consider it if I were playing a Monk with room for (UA) feats.

Pushing enemies around with Crusher may be more universally useful than slowing them down with Slasher, but Leonins get an unarmed slashing attack. If going Leonin, I'd play into the idea of a big cat hooking its claws in and preventing any of its prey from getting away. Sure, you'd have Sentinel for that, but what about when you have multiple enemies to lock down? Or when your opportunity attack misses?

Aside from that though, yeah, Crusher is the slightly better choice -- if you prefer something like a Maul over a Halberd.

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## Skylivedk

Hello everyone,

I'm reposting a build from one of the Throwdowns (#1 The Gish). Both because I like it, but also because it's much easier to find again when it's here... And because I want your feedback to improve it ;-)

The basic moving part of the build was that I found out that Spiked Growth and Hexblade's Curse seemingly worked together. With that in mind, I looked to see how I could exploit that cheese (to deal Tiamat levels of damage) while not relying on grating enemies to a painful death. The result was...

The Cheese Grater

_How to Play_
Your job is to abuse the cheese (Hexblade's Curse) and grate your enemies to a fine rotten milk smelling dust with Spiked Growth.

You don't really care about stats much, since you don't force saving throws and staying in shape is so last year. That also means that you use your spells mostly on 2 things: Armour of Agathys and Spiked Growth.

You are extremely 2-dimensional, so anyone with any kind of depth or height are supposed to be brought and ground to your level.

Now, cheese is supposed to go around the table, so the build combos surprisingly well with a lot of other classes.

Level 20 Level Split: Hexblade 3 / Moon Druid 10 / Fighter 2 / Scout 3 / Paladin 2

You can up Hexblade to 5 and become an anti-air missile when you are not shapeshifted or drop to 1 and lose your Healer's Pet Status and Spiked Growth Short Rest slots. If you do I recommend Scout 5 for Uncanny Dodge or Fighter 4 and Scout 4 for 2 ASIs and subclass (Battlemaster with the UA manoeuvres is a great great choice) OR Druid to 12 for 1 ASI, level 6 spells known and level 7 slots (in case you actually want to be able grate the great Tiamat by upcasting Spiked Growth). 

Race: Aarakocra / Simic Hybrid (if you want more grappling when you are last year) / Wood Elf (if you want the speed, but can't be fly).

*Stats*
Birdman: Str: 14 / Dex: 14 / Con: 14 / Int: 8 / Wis: 13 / Cha: 13

Simic Hybrid: Str: 13 / Dex: 14 / Con: 14 / Int: 8 / Wis: 13 / Cha: 13
Manta Glide / Nimble Climber at level 1, Grappling Appendages 


Background: Anything that doesn't grant Survival and Nature.

*ASIs*

1- Mobile
2- Warcaster/Tavern Brawler (if DM let's you use it with your forms... Otherwise, move along)
3- Tavern Brawler/Warcaster or +1 WIS / +1 CHA

Starting level
We want the cheese, so we might as well get it right away. Hexblade level 1. 
Grab Shield, Armor of Agathys and Booming Blade. I also like to have Minor Illusion. Shape Water can be fun as well.

*5th level*
Maybe the low point on the power curve.

After your first level of Hexblade, you are suddenly struck by remorse after having bargained your soul away for Prima Donna and to atone for your ways (not), you seek the Mercy of Nature and become a Moon Druid. Or you are lactose intolerant and your rash makes you look like a bear. Whatever.

Grab 4 level of Moon Druid. At level 3 it means you can laugh at Martials and their puny 1 attack. Armour of Agathys lasts an hour, you have Shield and Absorb Elements and you can self-heal when getting smacked. At level 4 you are officially online. You now have Hexblade's Curse (the Cheese) and Spiked Growth (the Grater). 

Also you get CR2 forms. You like the ones with Grapple on hit: Giant Frog, Constrictor Snake, Giant Octopus, Giant Toad and the Rocking Crocodile.

Grab Mobile as your ASI. Each 5 feet of movement speed is currently worth 7 point of damage, but later we are looking at up to 11 dmg/5 ft at Tier 4.

Your movement speed in day-to-day Birdman loadout is 60 ft before longstrider. 70 ft with Longstrider. You are incredibly fast.

*11th level*
Hexblade 1
Scout 3
Moon Druid 7

Oooh boy, so many things have happened since last!

So after level 5, you go 3 levels into Scout. This nets you 3 new skills and 4 x Expertise. You are forced to take Survival and Nature, but you have 2 free choices. One of them you want to use on Athletics. The other can be whatever. Stealth or Perception are popular.

You might notice that a lot of your forms are not so Sneak Attack friendly. Doesn't matter. We grabbed Scout for the Skirmisher feature, Bonus Action goody bag and Expertise(s).

With longstrider, BA dash, action dash and reaction movement, you reach 245 movement speed in a round. That translates to (2,5*2+4)*120/5 = 216 hp worth of damage when you go all out grapple and grate style (presuming you grappled earlier).

After Scout, you continue Druid until you are Moon Druid 10.

Post Moon Druid, you have graduated Hippie High School and can take whichever path in life you want, m'kay? You'd be at 14th level. I'd probably go for the 2 Fighter levels for Action Surge and 1 more Hexblade for the Invocations (you really want Gift of the Ever-Living Ones, but it requires Hexblade 3, you can rush it if you need more tankiness - it works with your self-healing from Moon Druid). 

*17th level*
Moon Druid 10
Scout 3
Fighter 2
Hexblade 2 (last level in Hexblade is optional - can also be more Ftr, Druid, Scout or Pala)

Invocations: Devil's Sight and whatever you feel like. I'd probably pick Misty Visions or Armor of Shadows if your DM is giving you a hard time with metallic armour. Fiendish Vigor is solid as well.

With level 10 Moon Druid you reached your Elemental Forms. Earth is more solid, but Air is faster.
If you spend a round to setup Spiked Growth and Hexblade's curse, you have a very solid 2nd round:

Base speed with Mobile and Longstrider: 110
Action Surge: 110
Bonus Action: 110
Reaction: 55

Total movement speed in a round: 385. Half while grappling = 190
Great grating damage: 11*190/5 = 418
If your team mate used haste on you, double up. That's one dead Tiamat (not accounting for immunities).

If you are not killing Tiamat, I recommend the Giant Scorpion. It only has 60 movement speed, but it can grapple to targets and AFAIK, it does so without losing speed.

*20th level and final thoughts*
The last levels in Hexblade (everything past 1) are not crucial. Gift of the Ever-Living Ones and 2 level 2 slots on a short rests are the draws. Gift of the Ever-Living Ones boosts your self-heal to something acceptable. Besides that, grab the pally slots and nuke away.

I originally thought of the build with 5 levels in Hexblade, because I find flying up and Eldritch Smiting a dragon so your team mates can gang up on the grounded lizard to be beautiful. But it is also beautiful to smite with your Druid slots while wildshaped, have more ASIs, or Uncanny Dodge on top of your Armour of Agathys (or level 6 and 7 spells), so I fully understand if you don't pick Hexblade 1-5. The current format is with Pala 2, Hexblade 3 to have smite in wildshape, Mirror Image, Darkness, Gifts of the Everliving Ones and Spiked Growth recharging on a Short Rest. If you find that you really miss the ASI, you can grab 2 from ditching the SR Slots. 

The build combos very well with a lot of popular builds:

*Sorlocks* with Repelling (and might also Grasping) EBs will almost cackle with glee once the Spiked Growth increase each of their hits with at least 10 average dmg (you just gave them Sharpshooter with no accuracy penalty - filth - or should I say cheese topping?)

Any *grappler* loves you. Doubly so for the Barbarian.

You can *tank* reasonably well with Armour of Agathys and the HP pools from your wildshapes. With Gift of the Ever-Living Ones you are also easy to heal. You remain a threat with smites and even without them, your sheer amount of physical control is hard to deal with.

You love sorcerers who use twinned Enlarge/Reduce on you and a baddie (you grow up, he smurfs out). Haste is also crazy good on you. Arguably better than on almost anyone else if you don't have another high-speed grappler in your team. If you do: great!

For the rogue, you can provide Pass Without Trace and often sneak along. Just beware the smell doesn't give away your position.

----------


## Citadel97501

Some friends and I were discussing some interesting builds and I was wondering if there was any way to get a Shadow Blade to be effective for a monk?  It seems kind of meh, as you can't use the Flurry of Blows to attack with the shadow blade, and you can't really use the booming blade tricks due that uses your Action?

So far the only interesting ideas for me, have been a Monk + Cleric + Sorcerer to use Shadowblade & Spiritual Weapon together?  Athough that needs a LOT of work fleshing out.

----------


## dopl

> Some friends and I were discussing some interesting builds and I was wondering if there was any way to get a Shadow Blade to be effective for a monk?  It seems kind of meh, as you can't use the Flurry of Blows to attack with the shadow blade, and you can't really use the booming blade tricks due that uses your Action?
> 
> So far the only interesting ideas for me, have been a Monk + Cleric + Sorcerer to use Shadowblade & Spiritual Weapon together?  Athough that needs a LOT of work fleshing out.


Starting as a dragon bloodline sorcerer would give access to the spell of course, and also an alternative to unarmored defense so that you won't  have to worry about Wisdom for a decent AC.

This would also give a use for your bonus action with a quickened Blade cantrip to get an additional proc of your sword each turn, and then you would go Kensai monk up to either 11 or 12 depending on how many feats you want, to make your spellsword scale up to be on par with +3 magic weapons. Gives some use to your ki points since flurry is off the table too.

I'm not sure if this is the best route to go for Monk, but I'm also very unsure if Monk would even be worth going into for this since for everything you want you would need to start sorc, before going monk until you get extra attack for Shadow Blade to be worth before going back into sorc to actually get the blade.

I do believe you can make the Shadow Blade a kensei weapon though, so thats something you've got going for it.

----------


## LudicSavant

*Samurai vs Battle Master DPR*

While I'm working on the full samurai post, here's Anydice calculations for Elven Accuracy Sharpshooter Samurai vs. VHuman Crossbow Expert / Sharpshooter Battle Master vs Nonhuman Crossbow Expert / Sharpshooter Battle Master nova damage.  And a level 20 Champion thrown in just for scale.

The Battle Master is using an optimal strategy to maximize their burst damage:  They use a damaging Maneuver if they hit, and Precision Attack if they miss by (superiority die size) or less.  Modeling this is the reason for all the complex functions at the top.

Enemy AC for the calculations is based on the DMG "average AC by CR" table, and uses a monster of CR = PC level.

https://anydice.com/program/1d9f2 (Click on "Summary") 

*Spoiler: Fighter Action Surge DPR Comparison Results*
Show



*VS AC 15:*
*[4] Samurai advantage sharpshooter    26.88   * 

[4] Nonhuman Battlemaster sharpshooter    28.58    

[4] Vhuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    40.69    

*[5] Samurai advantage sharpshooter    50.58   * 

[5] Nonhuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    57.15    

[5] VHuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    64.43

*[6] Samurai advantage elven accuracy sharpshooter    67.32   * 

[6] Nonhuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    64.43    

[6] VHuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    72.89

*VS AC 17:*
*[11] Samurai advantage elven accuracy sharpshooter    106.2*3    

[11] Nonhuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    98.94    

[11] VHuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    111.78    

*VS AC 18:*
*[15] Samurai advantage elven accuracy sharpshooter    122.86   * 

[15] VHuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    117.12    

*VS AC 19:*
[20] VHuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    148.67    
*
[20] Samurai advantage elven accuracy sharpshooter    160.30    

[20] Samurai Strength Before Death    320.60   * 

[20] Champion Superior Critical Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter    87.97    





Unsurprisingly, the toploaded VHuman Battle Master is ahead early on, but the Elf Samurai quickly catches up (at around 6) and eventually passes it.  It's also worth noting that the Soulknife is keeping up here, despite being a full tank sword and board build.

Some other pros and cons to consider:
- The Elf Samurai has more resources, since Tireless Spirit is better than Relentless.  Basically they can use 8-10 Fighting Spirits in a 'standard adventuring day.'  Which also means 6 full novas when they have 2 action surges/short rest (as opposed to a Battle Master's 3).
- The Elf Samurai has Strength Before Death.
- The Elf Samurai gets to generate a bunch of temporary hit points (potentially 120-150 in a 'standard adventuring day')
- The Elf Samurai basically has +1 ASI (since Elegant Courtier is basically Res:Wis, and that's a feat a burst Fighter _definitely_ wants).
- The Elf Samurai gets nice elf things like Fey Ancestry (further complementing Elegant Courtier), Darkvision, and teleportation.
- The Elf Samurai gets better non-combat abilities.
- The Battle Master gets the benefit of various rider effects in addition to their damage (like Frightening foes, etc).
- The Battle Master can potentially trip a foe with Tripping Attack and get Advantage on their remaining attacks if they fire them at point blank range with Crossbow Expert.
- The Battle Master can generate temp HP as a 'one-hour ritual' with Rally (doing it in any other way will impact their damage).

----------


## Klorox

Wow @LudicSavant, that's some seriously crunchy stuff.  I'm just gonna take your word for it on those maths. LOL

I can't say I completely understand AnyDice, but I think it's really cool you went with something you've seen work, and then ran the numbers yourself.

----------


## Skylivedk

@LudicSavant
Great job!

Does the lvl 11 non-human battle master have Elven Accuracy?

In what party set-up, ie how good does the party need to be at advantage generation, before you would still opt for the battle master at level 15+?

----------


## Wasp

> The other party members include a *Hexblade/Echo Knight archer (with Devil's Sight)*, a Lore Bard, and a 3rd party Monk subclass.


Well, that Hexblade/Echo Knight would interest me as well quite a bit...

----------


## PancakeMaster80

> That could definitely work. Why the fighter level though? And mind if we do the discussion in the Eclectic Builds thread? It's more likely to be kept alive.


1 level of fighter is the easiest way I could grab heavy armor, defense fighting style, con saving throw proficiency, and a weapon profiency I can use in the early levels




> Only downside is that you still don't have a solution for the size issues in tier 3+4. You are lot less mad though! I might 2 Pala instead, drop Fighter and take lore from 16 to 15. I wonder how Find Steed/Phantom Steed and grapple interact


The best solution for huge+ enemies kinda depends on party composition. If you have someone else to cast Spike Growth you can cast enlarge/reduce on yourself and the mount. If you have 2 people willing to enlarge/reduce you and your mount that would also work. Finally if none of that works the uncommon potion of growth will get the job done. Huge enemies are not super common so have between 4-6 of those potions would probably be enough to last you a while. 

As for mounting and grappling, I believe you grapple the target so it moves with you, but the mount's speed isn't impaired as it's not performing the grapple

----------


## Skylivedk

> 1 level of fighter is the easiest way I could grab heavy armor, defense fighting style, con saving throw proficiency, and a weapon profiency I can use in the early levels
> 
> 
> 
> The best solution for huge+ enemies kinda depends on party composition. If you have someone else to cast Spike Growth you can cast enlarge/reduce on yourself and the mount. If you have 2 people willing to enlarge/reduce you and your mount that would also work. Finally if none of that works the uncommon potion of growth will get the job done. Huge enemies are not super common so have between 4-6 of those potions would probably be enough to last you a while. 
> 
> As for mounting and grappling, I believe you grapple the target so it moves with you, but the mount's speed isn't impaired as it's not performing the grapple


Except if someone else I casting Spiked Growth, your Hexblade's Curse won't work. Good catch with the grappling and the mounts!

Will you write the entire build out?

----------


## LudicSavant

> @LudicSavant
> Great job!
> 
> Does the lvl 11 non-human battle master have Elven Accuracy?
> 
> In what party set-up, ie how good does the party need to be at advantage generation, before you would still opt for the battle master at level 15+?


I think both subclasses are very competitive "A tier" Fighter subclasses.  The Battle Master has a lot of advantages of their own besides raw ranged damage to consider.  And of course the Samurai is bringing non-damage advantages of their own, like their Wis save proficiency, temp HP generation, and better non-combat abilities.

Party composition-wise, Samurai makes its _best_ showing when it can get access to a nice magic weapon or a damage-per-hit buff from someone else; the reason for this being that their features basically act as force multipliers for everything you add to them.  (Think of it this way:  If you get a +2d8 to damage on each hit from Holy Weapon, triple advantage will make that 2d8 hit more and crit more.  And so will Rapid Strike and Strength Before Death).

When I say force multiplier, I'm not kidding.  Let me show you what I mean.




> Some quick DPR comparisons (*all vs AC 19 at level 20.  No "assuming hits" nonsense here*).  All results are rounded to the nearest tenth.  All calculations done with this tool, and provided my variables so you can replicate results:  http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...culator-(v2-0)
> 
> There are a lot of calculations here so hopefully I didn't have a typo somewhere.  Please correct me if I did.
> 
> First, the *Sorcerer/Hexblade's* EB combo from "Boss Damage Combination at Max Level" from this guide.  Note that the guide's calculation doesn't take into account hit chance and the like.  I did.
> Round 1 (EB+HC):  45.1 DPR
> Round 2 (EB+HC+Hex):  55.6 DPR
> Round 3+ (EB*2+HC+Hex):  111.2 DPR
> Average DPR if they get 3 full rounds of blasting the same target (and only in that case, because everything takes bonus actions to change targets, and you can't prebuff any of this):  (45.1+55.6+111.2)/3 = *70.6 DPR*
> ...


And of course Battle Master makes its best showing when they have allies that can generate Ranged Advantage for them.  They also can play as a close range archer using Crossbow Expert to occasionally close and get advantage against prone foes (prone doesn't actually require you to use a melee weapon, just for enemies to be within 5 feet of you).

But ultimately it's close enough that I'd just pick whatever suits your playstyle best.   You're going to be a good Fighter either way.  I usually recommend Samurai as the "like Champion, but good" class.

----------


## PancakeMaster80

> Except if someone else I casting Spiked Growth, your Hexblade's Curse won't work. Good catch with the grappling and the mounts!


That is true, I had forgotten that. So not super great against bosses, but fine for any huge mooks you're fighting




> Will you write the entire build out?


Certainly, I'll get on that =)

----------


## Darthnazrael

I've always thought Ranger 3 (Gloomstalker) would be a great addition to a Samurai Archer. Is it worth losing SBD? When would you take those levels?

----------


## LudicSavant

> I've always thought Ranger 3 (Gloomstalker) would be a great addition to a Samurai Archer. Is it worth losing SBD? When would you take those levels?


I always like Gloom Stalker with Fighter.  However it seems to me like it's less of a gimme for the Samurai than some other subclasses, simply because the Samurai has more lategame features they want than some other, more frontloaded Fighter subclasses.  And more pressure on their bonus action.

It's not just a matter of SBD, but also the second action surge and rapid strike.  Like, if I decide to take Gloomstalker 3 after I get Rapid Strike, I'm missing out on a second action surge / short rest, an ASI, an Indomitable, _and_ Strength Before Death during that time (though I'll eventually get the Action Surge at level 20 exactly).  If I decide to take it at 17, Dread Ambusher'll only come online at level 20, in which case I traded having SBD for 3 levels, an ASI, and an entire 4th attack.  If I decide to take it at 12, I'm trading an Indomitable, an ASI, Rapid Strike, and scaling the temp HP of Fighting Spirit.

That said it'd probably still be a solid pick, any time from level 11 onwards.  I just am not sure it would be the straight upgrade it is for some other subclasses.

----------


## M89

> I always like Gloom Stalker with Fighter.  However it seems to me like it's less of a gimme for the Samurai than some other subclasses, simply because the Samurai has more lategame features they want than some other, more frontloaded Fighter subclasses.  And more pressure on their bonus action.
> 
> It's not just a matter of SBD, but also the second action surge and rapid strike.  Like, if I decide to take Gloomstalker 3 after I get Rapid Strike, I'm missing out on a second action surge / short rest, an ASI, an Indomitable, _and_ Strength Before Death during that time (though I'll eventually get the Action Surge at level 20 exactly).  If I decide to take it at 17, Dread Ambusher'll only come online at level 20, in which case I traded having SBD for 3 levels, an ASI, and an entire 4th attack.  If I decide to take it at 12, I'm trading an Indomitable, an ASI, Rapid Strike, and scaling the temp HP of Fighting Spirit.
> 
> That said it'd probably still be a solid pick, any time from level 11 onwards.  I just am not sure it would be the straight upgrade it is for some other subclasses.


I was wondering, is the Samurai build going to be built around the Crossbow feat, or will it be available for Longbow users as well? It does seem like one chance for longbow to be a viable alternative, since crossbow expert BA would clash with Fighting Spirit.

----------


## LudicSavant

> I was wondering, is the Samurai build going to be built around the Crossbow feat, or will it be available for Longbow users as well? It does seem like one chance for longbow to be a viable alternative, since crossbow expert BA would clash with Fighting Spirit.


BA would indeed clash with Fighting Spirit.  I often take Crossbow Expert at some late point on Samurai builds but it's hardly a core choice, and is as much for the 'fire in melee' bit as anything else.  You can just as easily ignore it.  Especially if you're a teleporting elf (ex: a straight class MToF Eladrin with Fey Teleportation basically gets 6 bonus action teleports a day), or even just using Fighting Spirit's temp HP to absorb OAs.  Or of course avoiding being in such situations to begin wtih.

Basically the core of the build is just Elven Accuracy + Dex + Sharpshooter, and all of that's maxed out by level 8.  That + straight Samurai progression is good enough for your DPR core for the entire game, and frees you up to take whatever else you want with all your other ASIs.  You don't even need to take Res(Wis) because Samurai already gets it from Elegant Courtier, which means you totally have room to grab things like Ritual Caster or Fey Teleportation or Magic Initiate or any of that fun stuff.

----------


## M89

> BA would indeed clash with Fighting Spirit.  I often take Crossbow Expert at some eventual point on Samurai builds but it's hardly a core choice, and is as much for the 'fire in melee' bit as anything else.  You can just as easily ignore it.
> 
> Basically the core of the build is just Elven Accuracy + Dex + Sharpshooter, and all of that's maxed out by level 8.  That's good enough for your DPR core and frees you up to take whatever else you want with all your other ASIs.  You don't even need to take Res(Wis) because Samurai already gets it from Elegant Courtier, which means you totally have room to grab things like Ritual Caster or Fey Teleportation or Magic Initiate or any of that fun stuff.


Thanks for the answer!The fire in melee bit is indeed quite useful, as it could also trigger elven accuracy if you were flanking; but, at least a longbow user could pick the mobile feat, so to at least be able to get away and not shoot at disadvantage without triggering an opportunity attack.
I am looking forward to see your build, the Samurai always intrigued me as a subclass!

----------


## zinycor

What about a build that optimizes net use? How would the ultimate net fighter look like?

----------


## LudicSavant

> What about a build that optimizes net use? How would the ultimate net fighter look like?


Nets in 5e are weird.  Like, really weird.  So the builds that maximize their use are also weird.  Like there is no _good_ way that I know of to make an iconic Retiarius (e.g. net-and-trident fighter).  You instead end up with this weird sort of... melee hand crossbow Rogue.  Like I said, weird.

So nets have a few things going on.  

One is that they take your _entire action_ to use, so Extra Attacks become irrelevant -- which means they're not exactly ideal for a class like Fighter where the entire point is having a bunch of attacks and you probably could have used the same action to prone/grapple someone or something. 

Another is that they have a (non-Disadvantage) range of 5 feet.  But are a Ranged weapon, which means they have Disadvantage if you're within 5 feet of an enemy.  In order to deal with this you need to have Crossbow Expert (so that melee range doesn't confer Disadvantage) or Sharpshooter (so that the 10-15 foot range doesn't confer Disadvantage).

So what you can do is something like, say, take Crossbow Expert, throw a net, then Sneak Attack with your hand crossbow as a bonus action (with Advantage if they net succeeded).  Like this.

*Edit*:  Hmm, I guess there is one way to sort of do nets with a Fighter.  An Eldritch Knight could use War Magic to use Booming Blade, then use their bonus action to Net someone.

----------


## zinycor

> Nets in 5e are weird.  Like, really weird.  So the builds that maximize their use are also weird.  Like there is no _good_ way that I know of to make an iconic Retiarius (e.g. net-and-trident fighter).  You instead end up with this weird sort of... melee hand crossbow Rogue.  Like I said, weird.
> 
> So nets have a few things going on.  
> 
> One is that they take your _entire action_ to use, so Extra Attacks become irrelevant -- which means they're not exactly ideal for a class like Fighter where the entire point is having a bunch of attacks and you probably could have used the same action to prone/grapple someone or something. 
> 
> Another is that they have a (non-Disadvantage) range of 5 feet.  But are a Ranged weapon, which means they have Disadvantage if you're within 5 feet of an enemy.  In order to deal with this you need to have Crossbow Expert (so that melee range doesn't confer Disadvantage) or Sharpshooter (so that the 10-15 foot range doesn't confer Disadvantage).
> 
> So what you can do is something like, say, take Crossbow Expert, throw a net, then Sneak Attack with your hand crossbow as a bonus action (with Advantage if they net succeeded).  Like this.
> ...


I like it, kinda of a kidnapper rogue xD

----------


## Stattick

> Not at all!  Go for it 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure.  Hobgoblin first.
> 
> *Build 7:  Hobgoblin Iron Wizard*
> *Spoiler*
> ...


Half our players couldn't make it tonight, so the GM decided to run a one-shot for the two players that showed. I wrote up and ran the above.
A) It was a blast to run.
B) He was a TOTAL monster. I was tanking for the druid.

At one point, the GM rolls for his baddies to hit me. He says, "Alright, all three of them hit." I respond with, "Shield. That puts my AC up to 24 for the round." And just a small part of his soul died. They all missed.

Thanks.


EDIT:  I had a black owl as a familiar. Named him Sharpton.

----------


## PancakeMaster80

> Will you write the entire build out?



Grapple Bard: My Shield is here for you


*Ancestry*
Human - Variant: This build wants feats, and this ancestry allows us to get those feats with minimal delay.

*Starting Stats*
Str - 16: (main stat)Dex - 8: Dump StatCon - 16: (secondary stat)Int - 8: Dump statWis - 10: Good save and we have the pointsCha - 14: Needed for multiclassing plus grants us more uses of bardic inspiration and better spell saves

*Level Split*
1 Fighter: Armor, weapon, and con save proficiency alongside Defense Fighting Style.6 Bard - Lore: Grants us Expertise, tons of skill proficiency, a full spell list, and the vital Spike Growth/Find Steed.3 Warlock - Hexblade/Pact of the Chain: Hexblade's Curse hugely increases our damage versus a single target. The levels also grant useful spells like Booming Blade, Armor of Agathys, and Find Familiar. We also get bonus health from the Fiendish Vigor invocation and any healing we receive is maximised via Gift of the Ever-Living Ones.10 Bard - Lore: Further improves our mount and gives us access to powerhouse spells like Simulacrum.

*ASI*
Level 1 (ancestry) - Warcaster: This cannot lose their concentration or all their damage goes away.Level 5 - Mounted Combatant: Keeps our mount safe while it gives us the movement to do tons of damage.Level 12 - Shield Master: Lets us knock anyone we grapple proneLevel 16/20 - Strength +2: Max out our main stat and our athletics check

*Items*
While not needed for any of my builds, these are a few magical items that I believe help more than most. I am not including any of these items in my damage calculations.
+X Armor: More AC is always good.Animated Shield: This build normally has to choose between a higher AC and the ability to grapple two enemies at once.Boots of Speed: Lets us provide our own movement if our mount is dead or unavailable.Horseshoes of Speed: Faster mount means more damage.Potion of Growth: Lets us increase our size so we can grapple huge creatures. For max effectiveness we'll need one for our mount as well.

*Spoiler: Build Details*
Show

*Level/Features/Spells*
*Defense*
*Offense*

Level 1
1 Fighter Features
Feat(Ancestry): War CasterFighting Style
Defense Second Wind
AC
Chain Mail: 16Shield: +2Defensive Fighting Style: +1Total: 19HP
Hit Dice d10: +10Con 16: +3Total: 13Saves
Str 16
Stat 16: +3Prof: +2Total: +5Dex 8: -1Con 16
Stat 16: +3Prof: +2Total: +5Int 8: -1Wis 10: +0Cha 14: +2

Attack Bonus
Str
Stat 16: +3Prof: +2Total: +5 Damage Sources
Greatsword: 2d6Str 16: +3Total: 2d6 + 3 Average DPR vs
AC
10: 8.3515: 5.8520: 3.3525: 0.85

Level 2
1 Bard Features
Bardic Inspiration Spells
Cantrip
LightThunderclap1st
Comprehend LanguagesFaerie FireHealing WordIdentify
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 13Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Total: 21Saves
No Change

Attack Bonus
No Change Damage Sources
No Change Average DPR vs
AC
No Change

Level 3
2 Bard Features
Jack of All TradesSong of Rest (d6) Spells
1st
Longstrider
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 21Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Total: 29Saves
No Change

Attack Bonus
No Change Damage Sources
No Change Average DPR vs
AC
No Change

Level 4
3 Bard Features
Bard College
College of Lore
Bonus ProfienciesCutting WordsExpertise
AthleticsPerception Spells
2nd
Cloud of DaggersShatter replacing Faerie Fire
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 29Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Total: 37Saves
No Change

Attack Bonus
Grapple
Stat 16: +3Expertise: +4Cutting Words: 1d6 (subtracted from target's roll)Total: 7 + 1d6 Damage Sources
2x Cloud of Daggers: 8d4 Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
-1: 20.00+0: 19.00+1: 18.00+2: 17.00

Level 5
4 Bard Features
ASI: Mounted Combatant Spells
Cantrip
Blade Ward2nd
See Invisibility
AC
Plate Mail: 18Shield: +2Defensive Fighting Style: +1Total: 21HP
Previous Level: 37Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Total: 45Saves
Str 16
Stat 16: +3Prof: +3Total: +6Dex 8: -1Con 16
Stat 16: +3Prof: +3Total: +6Int 8: -1Wis 10: +0Cha 14: +2
Attack Bonus
Grapple
Stat 16: +3Expertise: +6Cutting Words: 1d6 (subtracted from target's roll)Total: 9 + 1d6 Damage Sources
2x Cloud of Daggers: 8d4 Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
-1: 20.00+0: 20.00+1: 20.00+2: 19.00

Level 6
5 Bard Features
Bardic Inspiration: d8 Font of Inspiration Spells
3rd
Catnap
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 45Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Total: 53Saves
No Change
Attack Bonus
Grapple
Stat 16: +3Expertise: +6Cutting Words: 1d8 (subtracted from target's roll)Total: 9 + 1d8 Damage Sources
2x Cloud of Daggers (3rd level): 12d4 Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
-1: 30.00+0: 30.00+1: 30.00+2: 30.00

Level 7
6 Bard Features
Countercharm Additional Magical Secrets
Find SteedSpike Growth Spells
3rd
Hypnotic Pattern
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 53Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Total: 61Saves
No Change
Attack Bonus
Grapple
Stat 16: +3Expertise: +6Cutting Words: 1d8 (subtracted from target's roll)Total: 9 + 1d8 Damage Sources
2x Warhorse Speed: 120ft2x Longstrider: +20ftSpike Growth: 2d4 per 5ftTotal: 56d4 Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
-1: 140.00+0: 140.00+1: 140.00+2: 140.00

Level 8
1 Warlock Features
Otherworldly Patron
Hexblade
Hexblade's CurseHex Warrior Spells
Cantrip
Eldritch BlastMage Hand1st
Armor of AgathysShield
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 61Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Total: 69Saves
No Change
Attack Bonus
Grapple
Stat 16: +3Expertise: +6Cutting Words: 1d8 (subtracted from target's roll)Total: 9 + 1d8 Damage Sources
2x Warhorse Speed: 120ft2x Longstrider: +20ftx28 Spike Growth: 2d4 per 5ftx28 Hexblade's Curse: 84Total: 56d4 + 84 Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
-1: 224.00+0: 224.00+1: 224.00+2: 224.00

Level 9
2 Warlock Features
Eldritch Invocations
Fiendish VigorDevil's Sight Spells
1st
Expeditious Retreat
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 69Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Fiendish Vigor: 8 tempTotal: 77 + 8Saves
Str 16
Stat 16: +3Prof: +4Total: +7Dex 8: -1Con 16
Stat 16: +3Prof: +4Total: +7Int 8: -1Wis 10: +0Cha 14: +2
Attack Bonus
Grapple
Stat 16: +3Expertise: +8Cutting Words: 1d8 (subtracted from target's roll)Total: 11 + 1d8 Damage Sources
2x Warhorse Speed: 120ft2x Longstrider: +20ftx28 Spike Growth: 2d4 per 5ftx28 Hexblade's Curse: 112Total: 56d4 + 112 Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
-1: 252.00+0: 252.00+1: 252.00+2: 252.00

Level 10
3 Warlock Features
Pact Boon
Pact of the ChainEldritch Invocation
Gift of the Everliving Ones replaces Devil Sight Spells
2nd
Misty step replaces HexMirror Image
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 77Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Fiendish Vigor: 8 temTotal: 85 + 8Saves
No Change
Attack Bonus
Grapple
Stat 16: +3Expertise: +8Cutting Words: 1d8 (subtracted from target's roll)Advantage from Find FamiliarTotal: 11 + 1d8 with advantage Damage Sources
2x Warhorse Speed: 120ft2x Longstrider: +20ftx28 Spike Growth: 2d4 per 5ftx28 Hexblade's Curse: 112Total: 56d4 + 112 Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
-1: 252.00+0: 252.00+1: 252.00+9: 239.40

Level 11
7 Bard Spells
4th
Freedom of MovementPolymorph replaces Cloud of Daggers
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 85Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Fiendish Vigor: 8 temTotal: 93 + 8Saves
No Change
Attack Bonus
Grapple
No Change Damage Sources
No Change Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
No Change

Level 12
8 BardFeatures
ASI: Shield Master Spells
4th
Dimension Door
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 93Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Fiendish Vigor: 8 temTotal: 101 + 8Saves
No Change
Attack Bonus
Grapple
No Change Damage Sources
No Change Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
No Change

Level 13
9 Bard Features
Song of Rest (d8) Spells
5th
Greater Restoration
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 101Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Fiendish Vigor: 8 tempTotal: 109 + 8Saves
Str 16
Stat 16: +3Prof: +5Total: +8Dex 8: -1Con 16
Stat 16: +3Prof: +5Total: +8Int 8: -1Wis 10: +0Cha 14: +2
Attack Bonus
Grapple
Stat 16: +3Expertise: +10Cutting Words: 1d8 (subtracted from target's roll)Advantage from Find FamiliarTotal: 13 + 1d8 with advantage Damage Sources
2x Warhorse Speed: 120ft2x Longstrider: +20ftx28 Spike Growth: 2d4 per 5ftx28 Hexblade's Curse: 140Total: 56d4 + 140 Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
-1: 280.00+0: 280.00+1: 280.00+11: 266.00

Level 14
10 Bard Features
Bardic Inspiration (d10) Magical Secrets
AidFind Greater SteedSpells
Cantrips
Message

AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 109Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Fiendish Vigor: 8 tempAid(5th level): +20Total: 117 + 28Saves
No Change
Attack Bonus
Grapple
Stat 16: +3Expertise: +10Cutting Words: 1d10 (subtracted from target's roll)Advantage from Find FamiliarTotal: 13 + 1d10 with advantage Damage Sources
2x Pegasus Speed: 180ft2x Longstrider: +20ftx40 Spike Growth: 2d4 per 5ftx28 Hexblade's Curse: 200Total: 80d4 + 200 Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
-1: 400.00+0: 400.00+1: 400.00+12: 380.00

Level 15
11 Bard Spells
6th
True Seeing
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 117Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Fiendish Vigor: 8 tempAid(6th level): +25Total: 125 + 25 + 8Saves
No Change
Attack Bonus
Grapple
No Change Damage Sources
No Change Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
No Change

Level 16
12 Bard Features
ASI: Lucky Spells
6th
Programmed Illusion
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 125Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Fiendish Vigor: 8 tempAid(6th level): +25Total: 133 + 25 + 8Saves
No Change
Attack Bonus
Grapple
No Change Damage Sources
No Change Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
No Change

Level 17
13 Bard Features
Song of Rest (d10) Spells
7th
Force CageRegenerate replaces programmed Illussion
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 125Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Fiendish Vigor: 8 tempAid(7th level): +30Total: 133 + 30 + 8Saves
Str 16
Stat 16: +3Prof: +6Total: +9Dex 8: -1Con 16
Stat 16: +3Prof: +6Total: +9Int 8: -1Wis 10: +0Cha 14: +2
Attack Bonus
Grapple
Stat 16: +3Expertise: +12Cutting Words: 1d10 (subtracted from target's roll)Advantage from Find FamiliarTotal: 15 + 1d10 with advantage Damage Sources
2x Pegasus Speed: 180ft2x Longstrider: +20ftx40 Spike Growth: 2d4 per 5ftx28 Hexblade's Curse: 200Total: 80d4 + 200 Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
-1: 400.00+0: 400.00+1: 400.00+14: 380.00

Level 18
14 Bard Features
Magical Secrets
CounterspellSimulacrumPeerless Skill
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 133Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Fiendish Vigor: 8 tempAid(7th level): +30Total: 141 + 30 + 8Saves
Str 16
Stat 16: +3Prof: +6Total: +9Dex 8: -1Con 16
Stat 16: +3Prof: +6Total: +9Int 8: -1Wis 10: +0Cha 14: +2
Attack Bonus
Grapple
Stat 16: +3Expertise: +12Peerless Skill: 1d10Advantage from Find FamiliarTotal: 15 + 1d10 with advantage Damage Sources
2x Pegasus Speed: 180ft2x Longstrider: +20ftx40 Spike Growth: 2d4 per 5ftx28 Hexblade's Curse: 200Simulacrum: Double Damage if second target availableTotal: (80d4 + 200) x 2 Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
-1: 800.00+0: 800.00+1: 800.00+14: 760.00

Level 19
15 Bard Features
Bardic Inspiration (d12)
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 141Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Fiendish Vigor: 8 tempAid(8th level): +35Total: 149 + 35 + 8Saves
No Change
Attack Bonus
Grapple
Stat 16: +3Expertise: +12Peerless Skill: 1d12Advantage from Find FamiliarTotal: 15 + 1d12 with advantage Damage Sources
2x Pegasus Speed: 180ft2x Longstrider: +20ftx40 Spike Growth: 2d4 per 5ftx28 Hexblade's Curse: 200Simulacrum: Double Damage if second target availableTotal: (80d4 + 200) x 2 Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
-1: 800.00+0: 800.00+1: 800.00+15: 760.00

Level 20
16 Bard Features
ASI: Resilience (Wisdom) 
AC
No ChangeHP
Previous Level: 149Hit Dice d8: + 5Con 16: +3Fiendish Vigor: 8 tempAid(8th level): +35Total: 157 + 35 + 8Saves
Str 16
Stat 16: +3Prof: +6Total: +9Dex 8: -1Con 16
Stat 16: +3Prof: +6Total: +9Int 8: -1Wis 10
Stat 10: +0Prof: +6Total: +6Cha 14: +2
Attack Bonus
Grapple
Stat 16: +3Expertise: +12Peerless Skill: 1d12Advantage from Find FamiliarTotal: 15 + 1d12 with advantage Damage Sources
2x Pegasus Speed: 180ft2x Longstrider: +20ftx40 Spike Growth: 2d4 per 5ftx28 Hexblade's Curse: 200Simulacrum: Double Damage if second target availableTotal: (80d4 + 200) x 2 Average DPR vs
Grapple Save
-1: 800.00+0: 800.00+1: 800.00+15: 760.00

----------


## Klorox

> Nets in 5e are weird.  Like, really weird.  So the builds that maximize their use are also weird.  Like there is no _good_ way that I know of to make an iconic Retiarius (e.g. net-and-trident fighter).  You instead end up with this weird sort of... melee hand crossbow Rogue.  Like I said, weird.
> 
> So nets have a few things going on.  
> 
> One is that they take your _entire action_ to use, so Extra Attacks become irrelevant -- which means they're not exactly ideal for a class like Fighter where the entire point is having a bunch of attacks and you probably could have used the same action to prone/grapple someone or something. 
> 
> Another is that they have a (non-Disadvantage) range of 5 feet.  But are a Ranged weapon, which means they have Disadvantage if you're within 5 feet of an enemy.  In order to deal with this you need to have Crossbow Expert (so that melee range doesn't confer Disadvantage) or Sharpshooter (so that the 10-15 foot range doesn't confer Disadvantage).
> 
> So what you can do is something like, say, take Crossbow Expert, throw a net, then Sneak Attack with your hand crossbow as a bonus action (with Advantage if they net succeeded).  Like this.
> ...



If you're looking to use nets, you're better off getting access to the web spell and just saying you're throwing a very sticky net.  

Nets really are strange.

----------


## Nod_Hero

> Thank you so much for this. I finally found something "weird enough" to play in our War of the Burning Sky campaign.


Just wanted to follow up that this build was SO.MUCH.FUN! My Leonin Ancestral Avenger was here... no over there... no over there instead...

Those Ragesians were confused as all heck.

----------


## Evaar

> *Build 1:  Celestial Generalist*
> This is a jack of all trades build highlighting the versatility of the Celestial Warlock.


So with the preview of the Genie Patron, I wanted to highlight that it offers a different spin on the Celestial Generalist.

You lose:
1) The healing options, both spells and the Healing Light feature, which are substantial losses
2) A couple cantrips (Light and Sacred Flame - not critical losses)
3) The other options from the Celestial spell list, including Flaming Sphere, Lesser and Greater Restoration, Revivify as potentially very useful standouts
4) The temporary hit points from Celestial Resilience
5) The Cheat Death feature from Searing Vengeance

If you pick a Dao patron (which I think is the best combo for this), you get:
1) To combine Spike Growth with Repelling Blast for ridiculous damage combos with the proper setup (and if we want to get really dumb, also take Grasp of Hadar to push, then pull, then push again on a single target once Eldritch Blast hits three times)
2) Bludgeoning resist for those times you're working as a tank
3) Limited Wish, which doesn't come until late, but would allow you to poach, for example, Tenser's Transformation if you REALLY want to flip into tank mode (although note Shillelagh still only works for 1 minute and can't be recast, so loses substantial effectiveness after 1 minute... but I would note that Tenser's seems better for a build like this than it does for a Wizard, even a Bladesinger, due to your limited spell slots)
4) Once per turn add proficiency bonus to damage, which means it works whether you're at range with Eldritch Blast or in melee with Booming Blade; i.e. it doesn't overly incentivize you to maximize the number of attacks you make per turn
5) Once per day safe short rests that only take 10 minutes, so you get a quick recharge on your spells
6) Every other thing the Celestial Generalist does
7) Thematic consistency for being able to empower a beating stick and do extra bludgeoning damage and causing explosions when badguys step off the glyph that appeared in the stone beneath them after you bonked them on the noggin (i.e. reflavoring booming blade)
8) 30 ft. flying speed not using Concentration for 10 minutes, ProficiencyBonus times per day, activated as a bonus action
9) Oh and Wish as a 9th level Mystic Arcanum

So you do lose some of the meaningful things that make the Celestial Generalist good at everything characters do in the game. However, in exchange you gain further skill in some of the most important other functions of the build - tanking and dealing damage. And at high levels, it's hard to overstate the value of flexible options like Limited Wish and Wish.

I think it represents a meaningful alternate choice for the build, particularly if you're working around a group that already has healing pretty well covered.

----------


## Darthnazrael

So with some of the stuff coming in Tasha's, I thought it might be fun to build a Str/Con Vedalken Echo Knight Grappler with Unarmed Fighting Style, taking advantage of the fact that the character essentially has four hands to grapple with (Echo), advantage on mental saves (vedalken), an athletics bonus that stacks with expertise and advantage (vedalken), and the ability to hold breath longer than most opponents, making drowning an option (vedalken).

This brought me to looking at the Ancestral Avenger as a template to start from. You mention that the build is good at grappling, limited only by how many hands you have free. But the AA has its hands full of Maul, if I've read correctly. And that got me to thinking. How do Echo hands even work?

Nowhere is it stated that Echoes can Use an Object. Can they drop an object? Presumably, upon creation they're wielding shadowy duplicates of whatever you're wielding. But it's pretty clear mechanically that they're not benefitting from your shield. Can they drop that and use that hand to grapple?

Speaking of what's in an echo's hands: if an echo is grappling an enemy, and I swap places with that echo, am I now grappling that enemy? Or is the grapple broken?

If the grapple _is_ maintained, that makes an echo knight an even more effective spikedragger, as the echo is already unimpeded by having its speed halved while dragging, since it has no speed, per Jeremy Crawford. So being able to drag them 30 ft with the echo, then tag in and dash an additional 15 yourself isn't too shabby. So with a druid in your party, you can be dragging enemies for 18d4 (~45) as early as level 3, and that doesnt even touch your action, bonus action for the turn. Even if the grapple is broken, 12d4 (~30) from just the echo is still amazing.

----------


## Rakoa

I am curious how some of these builds would change given the floating stat boosts coming in the Tasha book, and what new builds such options would open up.

----------


## Lavaeolus

> This brought me to looking at the Ancestral Avenger as a template to start from. You mention that the build is good at grappling, limited only by how many hands you have free. But the AA has its hands full of Maul, if I've read correctly. And that got me to thinking. How do Echo hands even work?
> 
> Nowhere is it stated that Echoes can Use an Object. Can they drop an object? Presumably, upon creation they're wielding shadowy duplicates of whatever you're wielding. But it's pretty clear mechanically that they're not benefitting from your shield. Can they drop that and use that hand to grapple?
> 
> Speaking of what's in an echo's hands: if an echo is grappling an enemy, and I swap places with that echo, am I now grappling that enemy? Or is the grapple broken?


My gut instinct: the echo is not a creature, and cannot _itself_ attack or grapple. "When *you* take the Attack action on your turn, any attack *you make* with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space." Given that, you may be able to initiate a grapple from the echo's space, but if you're not within 5ft of the creature, that grapple is going to be broken immediately.

Maybe. I've never played a Echo Knight or otherwise been in a campaign where someone was using it, so I can't claim to be too familiar with its mechanics -- and it's a bit of an odd duck regardless. I did read an argument that, RAW, because a grapple "ends if an effect *removes* the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect", the grapple would not be broken because the creature was never in your reach to begin with. Certainly one way to read it, but probably not an argument I could make to a DM with a straight face.

----------


## LudicSavant

There's an FAQ post for the Echo Knight over here.  Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any consensus one way or another on how exactly grappling is supposed to work for your echo.  It's an "ask your DM how it's supposed to work" thing, I guess.

If the answer is 'no' you're still able to grapple, you just have to do it yourself, not have your echo do it.  Then they can stand off somewhere else and still threaten a movement-stopping OA from there.

----------


## Necromas

> Speaking of Sorcerer gish builds, I was thinking of maybe making a Fighter 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer 18 build to make a sort of Final Fantasy Red Mage. It can use both Black and White Magic (Sorcerer and Cleric spells), and Action Surge, Twinned Spell and Quickened Spell replicate the Dualcast ability.


I know this reply is about a month late but this is definitely a build I've been itching to try. Half-elf seems the obvious choice for +2 cha, +1 con, and +1 str or dex. The extra skills are handy too if you think of red mages as skill monkies, though you can use the variant that gets a cantrip instead to have booming blade at fighter level 1.

I actually like the idea of going str instead of dex since part of the core idea I have of red mages is the ability to use a wide range of weapons and armor. Dex would be a bit more optimal though and get you better use out of your skills.

Another option to look at too is taking fighter to 3 for battlemaster. Most maneuvers are worded such that they can be used in combination with a scagtrip attack and it gives you something a little more unique feeling you can do.

----------


## LudicSavant

> Are you still planning to detail the Sharp Shooter Samurai, eventually, Ludic?


Alright, let's build a Samurai!  This one's pretty simple and straightforward -- indeed, being 'almost as simple as the Champion, but stronger' is often given as a selling point of the subclass.

Here we're going for a reliable single target damage workhorse with a well-rounded defense and an unusual amount of non-combat utility for a Fighter.  

*Build 13:  The Ancient Kyujutsu Master*

_A few hundred years old, in fact.  You know, what with being an elf and all._

*Ef (Shadar-Kai) Samurai 20*
*Stats*: Dex 17 / Con 16 / Wis 14 / Cha 10
*ASIs*:  Sharpshooter @4, Elven Accuracy (18 Dex) @6, 20 Dex @8, Ritual Caster @12, Crossbow Expert @14, Alert @16, Lucky @19
*Fighting Style*:  Archery  

*Samurai vs Battle Master*
Battle Master is one of the best fighter subclasses, and Archery Style + Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter is one of the best builds for them.  So how does an Elf Samurai compare?

*Spoiler: Samurai vs Battle Master analysis summary*
Show


*Samurai vs Battle Master DPR*
I did Anydice calculations for Elven Accuracy Sharpshooter Samurai vs. VHuman Crossbow Expert / Sharpshooter Battle Master vs Nonhuman Crossbow Expert / Sharpshooter Battle Master nova damage.  And a level 20 Champion thrown in just for scale (poor guy never stood a chance).

The Battle Master is using an optimal strategy to maximize their burst damage:  They use a damaging Maneuver if they hit, and Precision Attack if they miss by (superiority die size) or less.  Modeling this is the reason for all the complex functions at the top.

Enemy AC for the calculations is based on the DMG "average AC by CR" table, and uses a monster of CR = PC level.

https://anydice.com/program/1d9f2 (Click on "Summary") 

*Spoiler: Fighter Action Surge DPR Comparison Results*
Show



*VS AC 15:*
*[4] Samurai advantage sharpshooter    26.88   * 

[4] Nonhuman Battlemaster sharpshooter    28.58    

[4] Vhuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    40.69    

*[5] Samurai advantage sharpshooter    50.58   * 

[5] Nonhuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    57.15    

[5] VHuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    64.43

*[6] Samurai advantage elven accuracy sharpshooter    67.32   * 

[6] Nonhuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    64.43    

[6] VHuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    72.89

*VS AC 17:*
*[11] Samurai advantage elven accuracy sharpshooter    106.2*3    

[11] Nonhuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    98.94    

[11] VHuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    111.78    

*VS AC 18:*
*[15] Samurai advantage elven accuracy sharpshooter    122.86   * 

[15] VHuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    117.12    

*VS AC 19:*
[20] VHuman Battlemaster crossbow expert sharpshooter    148.67    
*
[20] Samurai advantage elven accuracy sharpshooter    160.30    

[20] Samurai Strength Before Death    320.60   * 

[20] Champion Superior Critical Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter    87.97    





Unsurprisingly, the toploaded VHuman Battle Master is ahead early on, but the Elf Samurai quickly catches up (at around 6) and eventually passes it, at least in terms of raw ranged damage.

Some other important pros and cons to consider that aren't represented by the DPR calculations:
+ The Elf Samurai effectively has +1 ASI (since Elegant Courtier is basically Res:Wis, and that's a feat a burst Fighter _definitely_ wants).
+ The Elf Samurai has more resources, since Tireless Spirit is better (and 5 levels earlier) than Relentless.  Basically they can use 8-10 Fighting Spirits in a 'standard adventuring day' from level 10 onwards.  Which also means 6 full novas when they eventually have 2 action surges/short rest (as opposed to a Battle Master's 3).
+ The Elf Samurai gets to generate a bunch of temporary hit points (potentially 120-150 in a 'standard adventuring day')
+ The Elf Samurai has better non-combat abilities.
+ The Elf Samurai gets Strength Before Death.
+ The Elf Samurai gets nice elf things like Fey Ancestry (further complementing Elegant Courtier), Darkvision, and Teleportation/Resistance.
+ The Elf Samurai scales unusually well with magic items and ally-cast buffs, due to their extra attacks (like Rapid Attack) and improved hit and crit rate.  All of these things act like force multipliers for things like Elemental Weapon, Holy Weapon, etc.  The effect can be quite significant, as demonstrated in this link.
+ The Elf Samurai doesn't rely on Hand Crossbows, which quintuples their range and makes them compatible with more magic gear.  It also frees up their bonus action more (for teleports, second wind, etc).
- The Battle Master can potentially do stuff like, say, trip a foe with Tripping Attack and get Advantage on their remaining attacks if they fire them at point blank range with Crossbow Expert.
- Battle Masters can attach a variety of useful riders to their nova, as the situation demands.
- The Battle Master can generate temp HP as a 'one-hour ritual' with Rally (doing it in any other way will impact their damage).
- Battle Masters have the other benefits of Crossbow Expert early (can stand in melee range, do some extra sustained damage in early levels, etc).



*A Party's Damage Dealer*
As shown in the "Samurai vs Battle Master" DPR analysis above, your primary role is to dish out buckets of damage at all levels.

Your damage output will be great with no help from anyone at all, but it's worth noting that you also scale unusually well with magic items or buffs.  Basically your boosted hit and crit rate (from Archery/Elven Accuracy/Fighting Spirit) and many extra attacks (from Fighter, Rapid Attack, and Strength Before Death) all act as force multipliers for effects like Elemental Weapon or Holy Weapon, and the effect can be quite significant.  It's something worth considering for party composition purposes.

You have numerous ways of triggering Rapid Attack, not merely from Fighting Spirit but also from sources like your Familiar's Help action, being stealthed at the start of combats, or leaving the lights out with Darkvision.  Or even firing point blank at prone enemies thanks to Crossbow Expert (note: I took CBE mostly for the ability to fire in melee and the small damage die bump -- not for hand crossbows).

*A Well-Rounded Defense*
Between Indomitable, Charm Resistance, Elegant Courtier, Dex/Con/Wis investments, and eventually Lucky, you're pretty resistant to saving throws in general.  Mind controlling you is especially difficult, since they basically need to get through Wisdom+Proficiency+Fey Ancestry+Indomitable+Lucky... which is a good thing, because your burst damage would be enough to one-shot many teammates if something ever did control you.

Your race also gives you Necrotic Resistance (one of the better types to have Resistance to, IMHO), as well as a 1/day bonus action teleport that gives you Resistance to _everything_ for a round.  It's basically two great bonus actions in one.  The teleport can help you get out of dodge if people close on your archer, or can help you escape a Wall of Force other other control effects (something that otherwise just kind of shuts down Fighters entirely).

You also get a fairly hefty helping of duration-free temporary hit points from Fighting Spirit.  15/day at level 3 (at a point where you'd otherwise have just 31 base hit points).  At level 10 you basically can use Fighting Spirit 3 times in your first encounter of the day then 1 time per encounter after that, generating as much as 80-100 hit points in a 6-8 encounter day (at a time where you'd have 94 base hit points).  Quite a bit, even if a few of those end up getting wasted in practice (since you might not want to wait until your temp HP get used in order to Fighting Spirit again).  And at level 15 that bumps up to 120-150.  That's a lot of temp HP to throw around!  And it makes you a lot more comfortable doing things like, say, just walking through an Opportunity Attack to avoid Disadvantage from melee range.  Also, since you're not really relying on your bonus action every turn (like a crossbow expert might) you're free to use Second Wind as needed, too.

Stength Before Death is a powerful defense in its own right, straight up interrupting the enemy's turn with a full turn of your own.  Which can totally be another Fighting Spirit Action Surge... enough to turn a would-be deadly situation into a one-sided curb stomp 1/day.  It might as well read 'you must be able to survive this much burst in order to kill me.'

You also have a few other tricks up your sleeve.  You can use Ritual Caster to have your familiar or unseen servant dropping ball bearings or caltrops, or kite with Phantom Steed, or fortify a location ahead of time with Tiny Hut, or the like.  You also can take advantage of the fact that as a max Dex Fighter you're a stealthy boi.  Alert means that you benefit more from vision blockers like fog clouds and the like (normally they 'cancel out' since people get Disadvantage from not seeing you, but Advantage from you not seeing them.  Alert stops that).  

So between a teleport, great range, Resistances, a bunch of hit points, solid saves all around, and a few extra tricks, you have a quite well-rounded defense to go with your potent offense.  As usual, my philosophy is that a defense is only about as strong as its weakest link, and so I have my bases covered.

*Utility and Ritual Caster*
Ah, a reason to actually remember that the Fighter exists out of combat!  Plus, it kinda fits with a sort of "kyudo ritualist" flavor.

Samurai already have some of the better utility features of the Fighter subclasses (not that that's saying much) in the form of Elegant Courtier and Bonus Proficiency.  But one of the best things about the Samurai is that the combination of being SAD, having bonus feats, and being able to skip Res(Wis) with Elegant Courtier really frees up your ASI choices.  And so I take the opportunity to grab *Ritual Caster* at level 12.  

The highest level rituals are 6th level, which means you already qualify.  And they're very cheap to add to your book, at least by the standards of a level 12 character.  For example, picking up Find Familiar, Phantom Steed, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Tiny Hut, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Languages, Water Breathing, Magic Mouth, and Detect Magic all together will only set you back 900gp.  And those things will do a lot for you.

In addition to the obvious noncombat utility, there's also a number of combat applications to keeping your rituals up -- Find Familiar for example can trigger Rapid Attack and Elven Accuracy with Help.  Phantom Steed provides 200 foot mobility until it dies.  Rary's Telepathic Bond lets you coordinate allies.  Tiny Hut lets you fortify positions ahead of time.  Familiars and Unseen Servants can feed people potions or drop caltrops or ball bearings.  And so forth.  

*Other Variants/Notes*:
- Any subclass of Elf will work, really.  Or Half-Elf, if you're rolling for stats.  MTOF Eladrin is a nice one, letting you get 1 teleport / _short_ rest rather than long, and letting you take an ally with you when you go (with the Winter effect).  If the above is the "Kyudo Ritualist" I might call that one the "Winter Courtier"  :Small Wink: 
- The only "core" ASIs are Sharpshooter, Elven Accuracy, and Max Dex.  You have a lot of freedom to switch things out beyond that (as well as change up the order however you like).  Fey Teleportation, Crossbow Expert, Wood Elf Magic, Magic Initiate, Alert, Lucky, Resilient (Dex), and Ritual Caster are all decent.
- Some thoughts on multiclassing in Post#565.

_____

Next will probably be a frontliner Bard or a Warlock archer.  Or something from Tasha's depending on how long I take  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Spiritchaser

Another reason the samurai build is better than the vhuman is simply that it has Darkvision!

This isnt always important, but its Important frequently enough to make a difference if things are even remotely close.

----------


## Hugh Mungus

Thanks for the Samurai build Ludic. Looking forward to giving this a try after the Iron Wizard and your 'Regenerator' Life Cleric  :Small Big Grin: .

----------


## Miele

> Alright, let's build a Samurai! ...


While this build is quite interesting, I'd like to have your (or anyone else!) opinion on how to build a Elf Battlemaster specialized in archery and using a longbow (because crossbows for elves? so unexciting).
I ask here, because I had the inspiration from your 3rd build, Wood Elf Magic Commando and I wanted to do something like that, but more driven towards bow shots rather than rapier and shield, which remain an excellent backup plan (all I'd miss is the +2 damage per attack in melee). For context, the party is currently just 3 players: this fighter, oath of vengeance paladin and Arcana cleric. Maybe we'll have a 4th player, in which case we'll see what he can do.

I picked Wood Elf and have the starting stats 10-17-14-10-15-8 
Fighter with Archery fighting style
Criminal (spy variant background) for Stealth and Thieves' tools proficiencies (I'll be the scout - rogue-like member of the party), Acrobatics and Animal Handling as fighter proficiencies and Perception as the racial one.

I'm not entirely sure in what order I should pick my ASIs, I thought to do as follows:

@4 Elven Accuracy
@6 Sharpshooter
@8 Dex 20
@12 Wood Elf Magic

At level 3 I was going to pick: Precision, Goading and Trip attack.

If you have any suggestions on how to improve it, I'd be glad to hear them. I'm interested in keeping the elf and the longbow parts untouched mostly, for thematic reasons.

----------


## stoutstien

> While this build is quite interesting, I'd like to have your (or anyone else!) opinion on how to build a Elf Battlemaster specialized in archery and using a longbow (because crossbows for elves? so unexciting).
> I ask here, because I had the inspiration from your 3rd build, Wood Elf Magic Commando and I wanted to do something like that, but more driven towards bow shots rather than rapier and shield, which remain an excellent backup plan (all I'd miss is the +2 damage per attack in melee). For context, the party is currently just 3 players: this fighter, oath of vengeance paladin and Arcana cleric. Maybe we'll have a 4th player, in which case we'll see what he can do.
> 
> I picked Wood Elf and have the starting stats 10-17-14-10-15-8 
> Fighter with Archery fighting style
> Criminal (spy variant background) for Stealth and Thieves' tools proficiencies (I'll be the scout - rogue-like member of the party), Acrobatics and Animal Handling as fighter proficiencies and Perception as the racial one.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure in what order I should pick my ASIs, I thought to do as follows:
> 
> ...


seems very reasonable. as Ludic pointed out above rally can be a good maneuver to grab if the party has regular short rests and no other source of reliable THP. fighters tend to do respectable damage out of the gate so having a few options for support and utility goes a long way. 

also the new splat book coming might have a fighting style more applicable to this concept if this character isn't going to see play in the next few weeks.

----------


## x3n0n

> seems very reasonable. as Ludic pointed out above rally can be a good maneuver to grab if the party has regular short rests and no other source of reliable THP. fighters tend to do respectable damage out of the gate so having a few options for support and utility goes a long way.


In fact, until you have Sharpshooter, I'm not sure how much value to expect from Precision Attack, so any utility maneuver might be more attractive. Note that Tasha's CoE will probably have new options for out of combat.

Edit: I'm also not sure how late it is safe to go without Resilient (Wis); probably campaign-dependent.

I think your order of ASIs is fine as is, but you could also swap SS & Dex-20 for 2 levels of better Trip DCs vs risky shots. That also makes it "safer" to delay Precision Attack until 7. (Although I expect TCoE to allow you to change maneuvers more frequently.)

----------


## DementedLogic

> Next will probably be a frontliner Bard or a Warlock archer.  Or something from Tasha's depending on how long I take


What about that Shifter Cleric Blaster/Inquisitor build? Alternatively, I'd love to see a different take on the cleric besides the standard SG + SW + Dodge/BB + Shillelagh bits.

----------


## CMCC

For the arcana cleric, does the Shillelagh cantrip actually work without an arcane focus? Does war caster take care of it? How do you grab the additional components?

----------


## ftafp

> For the arcana cleric, does the Shillelagh cantrip actually work without an arcane focus? Does war caster take care of it? How do you grab the additional components?


Shillelagh only takes one hand and a cleric can have their symbol on their shield, but I find that most DMs will let you use an associated weapon as a divine symbol (e.g. a cleric of thor using a hammer or a cleric of neptune using a trident or net)

----------


## CMCC

> Shillelagh only takes one hand and a cleric can have their symbol on their shield, but I find that most DMs will let you use an associated weapon as a divine symbol (e.g. a cleric of thor using a hammer or a cleric of neptune using a trident or net)


Right so with a shield in one hand, the staff in the other, how does the cleric get the mistletoe and shamrock leaf out of the component pouch?

The staff cant be an arcane focus for Druid spells without a ruby of the war mage.

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## x3n0n

> Right so with a shield in one hand, the staff in the other, how does the cleric get the mistletoe and shamrock leaf out of the component pouch?
> 
> The staff cant be an arcane focus for Druid spells without a ruby of the war mage.


A Wooden Staff is one of the named druidic foci, and internet discussion suggests that it's intended to be usable as a quarterstaff as well. At least that's how I've seen it at my tables.

----------


## ftafp

> Right so with a shield in one hand, the staff in the other, how does the cleric get the mistletoe and shamrock leaf out of the component pouch?
> 
> The staff cant be an arcane focus for Druid spells without a ruby of the war mage.


the casting focus replaces the material components as long as they don't have a cost and aren't consumed. RAW a cleric's shield can be a casting focus if it has the symbol of their god on it. Somatic components are more of a problem, you can only use your focus hand for somatic components if the spell has both somatic AND material components

----------


## x3n0n

> RAW a cleric's shield can be a casting focus if it has the symbol of their god on it.


I think the assertion is that MI(Druid) spells need a druidic focus, not a holy symbol ("divine focus"), since there's nothing that turns them into cleric spells.

----------


## LudicSavant

> I think the assertion is that MI(Druid) spells need a druidic focus, not a holy symbol ("divine focus"), since there's nothing that turns them into cleric spells.


Magic Initiate does not enable you to use a Druidic Focus, that comes from a class feature.

----------


## ftafp

So presumably you do need to supply the material components, but the staff is part of the material components so that only takes up one hand. In that situation, the staff is acting as a material component, not the weapon, so it combined with the clover and mistletoe only take up one hand

Also, there's nothing saying you can't have the staff on your back and draw it as a free item interaction. Nor is there anything saying you can't hold it in your armpit while you pat your pockets trying to remember which one you crammed your spellcasting leaves into

----------


## x3n0n

> Magic Initiate does not enable you to use a Druidic Focus, that comes from a class feature.


Ah, true. Given that, casting Shillelagh via Magic Initiate requires a component pouch in one hand, yes?

If so, I think the question from above stands:




> For the arcana cleric, does the Shillelagh cantrip actually work without an arcane focus? Does war caster take care of it? How do you grab the additional components?


My best guess: War Caster plus holding shield and component pouch in the same hand and staff/club in the other? (Or Ruby of the Way Mage as suggested, or just saying it doesn't matter.)

----------


## CMCC

> Magic Initiate does not enable you to use a Druidic Focus, that comes from a class feature.


Exactly. This is the crux of my question.

----------


## CMCC

> So presumably you do need to supply the material components, but the staff is part of the material components so that only takes up one hand. In that situation, the staff is acting as a material component, not the weapon, so it combined with the clover and mistletoe only take up one hand
> 
> Also, there's nothing saying you can't have the staff on your back and draw it as a free item interaction. Nor is there anything saying you can't hold it in your armpit while you pat your pockets trying to remember which one you crammed your spellcasting leaves into


Are pulling components part of an interact with object? If the staff is a component, cant you pull that and the rest from the pouch?

But then Im back to how do you grab all three things with one hand?

----------


## Evaar

This would require DM approval, but I would allow it:

1) Start turn with shield and staff equipped. 
2) You can freely move an item to another hand, so use shield hand to hold staff but not be able to use or attack with it while this is done. This is the part that requires DM approval because RAW its not allowed, but realistically its obviously possible. 
3) Cast Shillelagh with one free hand, the cast action itself handles the component pouch interaction. 
4) Freely swap the staff back to your main hand. 

Maybe theres a simpler way but I couldnt come up with it. You cant use a holy symbol because its not a Cleric spell. The staff isnt a focus for you because you arent a Druid. You cant drop the staff and use a free item interaction to pick it up because Shillelagh requires a staff or club you are holding. And you cant drop a shield because it requires an action to doff. 

Or play a simic hybrid with extra appendages. The rules state you cant wield a weapon or precisely manipulate items, which provides the exceptions that proves the rule (in the actual correct use of that phrase) that your extra appendages can hold objects.

Or. *shiftily looking side to side* Just dont bring it up and probably no one will even notice because its silly.

Edit: Rereading the material components of the spell, this might just solve itself. The staff/club is one of the components. You only need one hand to access the components of the spell. Theres no special rule saying Shillelagh needs two hands to use properly. So youre already holding a material component of the spell in one hand, you can just access the others with the same hand according to rules for material component casting.

If that doesnt work, then Id point out its also impossible for a Druid using a club and shield to cast Shillelagh.

----------


## CMCC

That sounds right to me.

----------


## Skylivedk

> Grapple Bard: My Shield is here for you
> 
> 
> *Ancestry*
> Human - Variant: This build wants feats, and this ancestry allows us to get those feats with minimal delay.
> 
> *Starting Stats*
> Str - 16: (main stat)Dex - 8: Dump StatCon - 16: (secondary stat)Int - 8: Dump statWis - 10: Good save and we have the pointsCha - 14: Needed for multiclassing plus grants us more uses of bardic inspiration and better spell saves
> 
> ...


Thank you, Pancake for writing the entirety of this wonderfully cheesy build! I love that you have dug through the items, abuse find steed and get spells at such a high level.

A few notes:
1) I don't think the build can be done RAW:



> "Moving a Grappled Creature. When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you."
> 
> When you move. Not when you are moved. It's the same reason you can't drag a creature with you when your mount moves you.


It doesn't make any sense to me, but it might be worth checking.

2) do you feel confident that pact of chain beats level 9 spells? I somehow have a hard time imagining that :) both ie prismatic wall an foresight seems to fit the build really well

----------


## da newt

If I was a Shillelagh user, I'd pre-stage my components - maybe stuff a shamrock in my glove and craft a mistletoe ring or bracelet or incorporate it into my shield handle ...

----------


## Legospasm

I have a silly build (with variations) I want to add to the mix entirely built around having the highest Persuasion rolls in the game. Obviously this is meant for a more roleplay focused campaign, but fortunately the build works perfectly fine in combat as a supporter and controller.

If you want to play the ultimate face and talk your way past everything your DM throws at you, this build will tickle your fancy.

The Platinum-Tongued Diplomat

The Core Build

*Redemption Paladin 3 / Eloquence Bard 3*
*Stats:* Max Charisma, high Wisdom, the rest depends on the build you choose.
*Race:* Anything that increases your Charisma.
*Expertise:* Persuasion and Insight

This is the basis of the build, with variations splitting off from these two subclasses. There are two key features here: first, the Eloquence Bard's _Silver Tongue_, which makes every Persuasion roll you make at least a 10, and the Redemption Paladin's  _Emissary of Peace_, which gives you a flat +5 bonus to all Persuasion checks for 10 minutes.

*Persuasion at lvl 6:* With these two features and a Charisma score of 16, with Silver Tongue + Emissary of Peace + Proficiency + Expertise + 3, your Persuasion checks will be rolling a _minimum_ of *24* for 10 minutes once per short rest, a respectable *19* without your Channel Divinity, and a maximum of *34!* Those are some high, very consistent rolls, and you can get advantage on the roll with Charm Person, bringing your average roll up to around *28*. Plus, with expertise in Insight (or casting Detect Thoughts), you'll know what to say to the people you're trying to sway.
*Persuasion at lvl 8:* If you go to lvl 4 in both classes for two ASIs and bump your Cha up to 20, you bring your minimum roll to *26*, or *21* without your Channel Divinity. That's the same bonus Glibness gives you a whole _7 levels early_ on a short rest!

All in Persuasion

*Redemption Paladin 3 / Eloquence Bard 3 / Samurai Fighter 7 / Archfey Warlock 1*
*Stats:* Cha 20 / Wis 16 / Str 13
*Race:* Half-Elf (stats) / Changeling (18 Cha at lvl 1) / VHuman (Inspiring Leader)

This build focuses entirely on getting the biggest Persuasion rolls possible without spellcasting. After all, it'd be a tad objectionable if you waltzed into a foreign ruler's court coated in layers of buff spells and getting Guidance cast on you every time you open your mouth. We want to be honest in negotiations. We add two more class features to the mix: the Samurai's _Elegant Courtier_, which lets you add your Wisdom modifier to your Persuasion, and the Archfey's _Fey Presence_, giving you and AoE charm with no RAW downside. You can fluff it as the charming twinkle in your eye, though I can see an argument that the fey visage is noticeable.

*Persuasion at lvl 14:* With the added Wisdom bonus, you'll be rolling a minimum check of *28* to persuade people, *33* if you pop your Channel Divinity.
*Persuasion at lvl 16:* Again, with 2 extra ASIs to bring your Wis up to 20, your minimum increases to a _whopping_ *30 / 35*.

You'll want to start with one level in Fighter for the Con save if you're gonna go anywhere near combat. Of course, with so many levels in fighter, paladin smites, and plenty of spell slots, your charismatic diplomat is no slouch, though you're certainly not optimized for it. You can increase your physical stats instead of wisdom and deal some solid damage with the boost from Fighting Spirit, and tank decently with heavy armor, temp hp, and sanctuary. You can even afford to get Inspiring Leader with the right stat allocation and pad out your party's HP whenever you rest. Continue leveling Fighter for better melee combat or Bard for better support spells and Inspiration. Avoid leveling up to Paladin 5 so as to not overlap on Extra Attacks.

Guardian Angel / Party Pleaser

*Devotion Paladin 15 / Eloquence Bard 5 OR Eloquence Bard 15 / Devotion Paladin 5*
*Stats:* Max Cha / Good Con / Str 13 min
*Race:* Protector Aasimar is thematic, but anything that boosts Cha will do. VHuman if you want to start with Inspiring Leader.

This is the build you take if you want to function well outside of social situations (aka most campaigns). Grab heavy armor, a shield, and a weapon. Counterintuitively, you don't want the Protection fighting style, as it conflicts with your Aura of the Guardian's reaction. Get Protection instead.

As a Devotion Paladin, you'll want to find nonviolent solutions to encounters, and fortunately your abilities and spells are perfect for the job. Roleplay an actual diplomat or envoy. Cast sanctuary on yourself and walk up to the entrance of the enemy's lair. Announce your party and ask to parley with the enemy leader as they try and fail to shoot you with arrows. Wait patiently for them to fetch their boss, or use those huge persuasion rolls to convince them to cooperate, along with a little help from Calm Emotions or Suggestion.

*Combat Capabilities*
Remember, if a fight does seem inevitable, you're a fully trained paladin, not a pacifist. If something is too far gone from redemption, it's your job to end them.
Here's what you can do:
End an encounter before it even starts with Sleep, Calm Emotions, or Hypnotic Pattern.Grab Expertise in Athletics and grapple your foes into submission.Help your allies make every save with Aura of Protection, Bardic Inspiration, and Bless.Absorb lethal hits your allies take with Aura of the Guardian and heal it back with Protective Spirit.Boost your allies HP with Inspiring Leader and Aid, and refill it with Heroism when it runs out.Cast Compelled Duel on the strongest enemy, then cast Sanctuary on yourself and laugh as they struggle with disadvantage of all their attacks.Start a peace talk with literally anything smart enough to speak with Tongues.

The Bard version serves more as a dedicated spellcaster, though you can also utilize your increased number of spell slots for smiting more enemies throughout the day. I'm not going to go into much detail here, but there is one important advantage this version has: Glibness. While it does make your Silver Tongue feature redundant while it's up, the spell rockets your Persuasion rolls to a massive *37* for 10 minutes once per long rest!

You also have the advantage of Universal Speech, allowing you to circumvent those pesky language barriers and force your DM to roleplay the raving horde they just wanted to throw at you. With additional Expertise at lvl 10, you're a master of all Charisma skills, not just Persuasion. Finally, you have the most Bardic Inspiration dice out of any bard, making your party succeed at basically everything. You'll probably want to grab War Caster somewhere along the way, so you can hold a shield instead of an instrument in battle.

Options

*Spoiler: Multiclass Variants*
Show


There are plenty of build variations to fit the character you have in mind or the campaign you're in. Here are some I came up with:

*Sorcerer 3* for Subtle Spell, allowing you to cast social spells and buffs secretly without repercussions. Divine Soul gives you access to the cleric spell list for more buffs and Spiritual Weapon.
*Rogue 1* for additional Expertise without having to get to Bard 10, or double up with the bard levels for ALL THE EXPERTISE. Become the ultimate party Face and skill monkey.
*Inquisitive Rogue 3* to make your Insight rolls more reliable. Great for political intrigue!
*Shepherd Druid 2* to extend your message of peace to all your animal friends. Or just be a Firbolg.



*Spoiler: Races*
Show


These aren't ordered in any particular way. I'm not listing every option, but as long as you prioritize Charisma, you'll be good. After Cha, look for Strength, Constitution, or Wisdom.

*Variant Human:* Always good. Take Inspiring Leader early, or Lucky to make sure peace talks go how you want.
*Changeling:* Start out with 18 Charisma using point buy or standard array. You don't really want to trick people as an emissary of peace, but shape changing can still be useful for Charm Person shenanigans.
*Protector Aasimar:* The Wisdom bonus is actually useful for you, the healing his helpful in a pinch, and the guardian angel roleplay is on point.
*Half-elf:* The standard pick for most Charisma builds. Advantage against charms help you stop opposing negotiators from manipulating you, and the PHB literally describes them as diplomats. Can't go wrong.
*Kalashtar:* Not as much Cha as other options, but advantage on Wis saves is great against people trying to alter your mind, and your telepathy allows you to surpass the language barrier at lvl 1, or strategize with your allies.
*Yuan-ti:* Magic Resistance is overpowered as usual, and you get Suggestion for free once per long rest. A Yuan-ti as a cunning, manipulative negotiator is also a flavor win.
*Triton:* Nothing too special, the stats are good and you get free spells, but the real benefit is roleplaying an emissary of the ocean.
*Tiefling:* Tons of different options here, with Fierna and Dispater providing the best spells. You might have to work a little harder to convince wary parties that you mean no harm.
*Satyr:* Again, Magic Resistance is overpowered, and you get Charisma and free Persuasion proficiency. Broker deals and treaties between the Fae and mortal-kind.



*Spoiler: Features*
Show


*Inspiring Leader:* Probably your most important feature, and very on theme, unless your party is literally (not figuratively) never in combat. The temporary HP synergizes well with your Aura of the Guardian, allowing you to absorb more damage, and solidifies you as the party's solo support.
*War Caster:* You have a lot of concentration spells, and while you can cast your paladin spells through a holy symbol on your shield, you don't have hands for an instrument as well, so this feature is very good if you plan to be in combat.
*Resilient:* An alternative to War Caster, since proficiency helps with all Con saves, not just for concentration.
*Linguist:* More languages mean more people you can Persuade, though the Tongues spell makes this redundant. Take this if you only got 3 levels in Bard.
*Lucky:* Make sure those important diplomacy rolls succeed. While your Persuasion is amazing, the rest of your important social skills can really use the added reliability.
*Observant:* Very good for an intrigue campaign, letting you catch secret negotiations and other hidden clues.
*Tough:* You take a ton of damage, both from being on the frontline and absorbing the damage your allies take, so the added hp is very welcome.
*Prodigy:* If you want more expertise but you don't want to get 10 lvls in Bard or 1 lvl in Rogue.
*Heavy Armor Master:* Great for tanking, but notably it does not reduce the damage you redirect with Aura of the Guardian.

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## Citadel97501

LOL Great Idea Legospasm :)

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## Klorox

> Alright, let's build a Samurai!  This one's pretty simple and straightforward -- indeed, being 'almost as simple as the Champion, but stronger' is often given as a selling point of the subclass.
> 
> Here we're going for a reliable single target damage workhorse with a well-rounded defense and an unusual amount of non-combat utility for a Fighter.  
> 
> *Build 13:  The Ancient Kyujutsu Master*
> 
> _A few hundred years old, in fact.  You know, what with being an elf and all._
> 
> *Ef (Shadar-Kai) Samurai 20*
> ...


Very cool! I dig it!

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## Citadel97501

Hello all, after discussing some stuff about D&D with a couple players I was thinking we could make the Lord Marshall from Chronicles of Riddick.  The intent is to create a melee dps character with solid control through attacks of opportunity, and Fear.  

The Lord Marshall

*Alignment* Lawful Evil all the way...
*Race:* Variant Human or Hollow One: +1 Strength, +1 Dexterity, Perception
*Classes:* Fighter 8, Paladin of Conquest 12: Order of Purchase: Fighter + 6, Paladin + 7, Fighter +2, Paladin +5
*Base Stats:* 14 Strength, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14, Intelligence 9, Wisdom 10, Charisma 14
*Background:* Noble: History, & Persuasion
*ASIs:* VH: Sentinel, Fighter 4: Polearm Master, Fighter 6: +2 Strength, Paladin 4: +2 Strength, Fighter 8: +2 Charisma, Paladin 8: +2 Charisma, Paladin 12: +2 to Strength or Charisma dealer's choice...
*Fighting Style:* Fighter: Great Weapon Fighter or Unarmed Fighting if UA is Available, Paladin: Defense or Blessed Warrior, either is good but BW is only for UA playing.  My reasoning is simple, GWF helps with PAM, but the Unarmed Fighting will be a lot of fun and is demonstrated a lot in the final fight in the movie, while Blessed Warrior can give you a ranged attack & something useful for utility such as Guidance.

*A Party's Damage Dealer*
Multiple attacks per turn which can all receive Improved Divine Smite for bonus damage, and all have a chance to trigger your Smites, means your DPR will be quite high, although your accuracy might be a bit underwhelming early on, but this can be alleviated through Guided Strike.

*Active Defenses*
Your primary defense is preventing people from attacking you, through either fear lockdown or Sentinel but your Armor class isn't that bad and your health is above average, while your saves are very good.  Spear & Shield are a perfectly acceptable style of combat but changes the design of the character somewhat moving away from the brutal style of offense that the Lord Marshall seems to employ.  

*Spells*
Armor of Agathys, Wrathful Smite, & Shield of Faith are the only spells I can think might see some use, everything else should likely be used for Smiting...

*Utility*
Pretty average stats and a good number of skills means you can be effective out of combat but not overly focused.  

*Other Variants/Notes:*
Hollow One from the Wildemount book would be fabulous here as it would fit the lore better but would require some ASI juggling...
Shadar Kai would be a lot of fun, and it was discussed in the Samurai build above why its so useful for a fighter.

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## PancakeMaster80

> Thank you, Pancake for writing the entirety of this wonderfully cheesy build! I love that you have dug through the items, abuse find steed and get spells at such a high level.
> 
> A few notes:
> 1) I don't think the build can be done RAW:
> 
> It doesn't make any sense to me, but it might be worth checking.


Good point to call out, from my research it seems to be a grey area, jeremy crawford gave the unhelpful advice that you'd use the lift/drag rules instead of grapple, but since monsters don't have listed weights that's not super helpful.




> 2) do you feel confident that pact of chain beats level 9 spells? I somehow have a hard time imagining that :) both ie prismatic wall an foresight seems to fit the build really well


If I were building the character at very high level I'd agree that level 9 spells are better, but for anyone actually using this character the early advantage on grappling from Find Familiar is better than the very very late power spike of 9th levels spells. The maximized healing is also nice for someone who's gonna be getting attacked a lot.

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## Ir0ns0ul

> Not at all!  Go for it 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure.  Hobgoblin first.
> 
> *Build 7:  Hobgoblin Iron Wizard*
> All the fun of a straight-classed God Wizard with no delays whatsoever to spell learning progression, except without the squish.  
> ...


I just want to formally thank for this build. Its pure gold mechanically without compromising characterization and even opening several roleplay opportunities.

Im starting a new campaign right now, just had our second game session and my Iron Hobgoblin Wizard who is actually an extreme fanatic pacifist (without a single cantrip/spell capable of doing damage) is doing really well fighting against all the racial prejudice commonly associated to monstrous races.

Mold Earth and Minor Illusion are proving to be amazing cantrips to avoid combat or protect allies. Everyone knows that Sleep is godly by first levels.

Right now I still didnt decide if Ill go Abjuration or Divination, but Ill keep you guys posted!

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## Klorox

> I just want to formally thank for this build. Its pure gold mechanically without compromising characterization and even opening several roleplay opportunities.
> 
> Im starting a new campaign right now, just had our second game session and my Iron Hobgoblin Wizard who is actually an extreme fanatic pacifist (without a single cantrip/spell capable of doing damage) is doing really well fighting against all the racial prejudice commonly associated to monstrous races.
> 0
> Mold Earth and Minor Illusion are proving to be amazing cantrips to avoid combat or protect allies. Everyone knows that Sleep is godly by first levels.
> 
> Right now I still didnt decide if Ill go Abjuration or Divination, but Ill keep you guys posted!


I actually agree, like 95% (I also really love the arcana cleric).  This is a wizard 100% of the way, and if anything at all slows him down it's that single feat (which is totally worth it over a +2 INT).

It's the perfect wizard IMHO.

----------


## Petrocorus

> Right now I still didnt decide if Ill go Abjuration or Divination, but Ill keep you guys posted!


I was thinking that War Wizard (as previously said) but also Chronurgy can fit very well this build.
I think Chronurgy is very op at low level. The level 2 gives you a Portent variant plus the best half of War Wizard.
Level 6 is a free one-round Hold Person.




> I actually agree, like 95% (I also really love the arcana cleric).  This is a wizard 100% of the way, and if anything at all slows him down it's that single feat (which is totally worth it over a +2 INT).
> 
> It's the perfect wizard IMHO.


In Scarred Land, you can go even further.
I had my DM agree at the time to give me shield proficiency with the Heavily Armored feat.
If you choose the Hollow Legionnaire race, you have light armor prof and can access the Spire Legionnaire feat.
Mithril Spire gives you medium armor prof, +1 in Int or Dex, +5 ft of movement, and the ability to ignore Stealth disadv and Strength requirement.
So with two feats (costly i know) you can be a full plate wizard with full speed and stealth and AC 20 if you manage to get shield prof.

----------


## CMCC

> Not at all!  Go for it 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure.  Hobgoblin first.
> 
> *Build 7:  Hobgoblin Iron Wizard*
> All the fun of a straight-classed God Wizard with no delays whatsoever to spell learning progression, except without the squish.  
> ...


Maybe Im wrong, but treantmonks one level of hexblade really seems to solidify this build. 

AoA seems really worth it.

----------


## 8wGremlin

> Maybe Im wrong, but treantmonks one level of hexblade really seems to solidify this build. 
> 
> AoA seems really worth it.


It doesn't add as much as you think, the Hobgoblin Iron Wizard, already has light armour proficiency and gets medium with the feat. so this negates the armour benefits of the Hexblade. 

The Hobgoblin Iron Wizard gets two martial weapons, probably rapier and longbow, to use the DEX, but only really for tier 1, which should be 14 or more. This negates the benefit of the Hex Warrior

So the only thing going fro the Hexblade is Hexblade curse which is potent especially when used with the Magic Missile trick. 

But it also delays spell progression as Warlock doesn't add to spell casting.

----------


## LudicSavant

> It doesn't add as much as you think, the Hobgoblin Iron Wizard, already has light armour proficiency and gets medium with the feat. so this negates the armour benefits of the Hexblade. 
> 
> The Hobgoblin Iron Wizard gets two martial weapons, probably rapier and longbow, to use the DEX, but only really for tier 1, which should be 14 or more. This negates the benefit of the Hex Warrior
> 
> So the only thing going fro the Hexblade is Hexblade curse which is potent especially when used with the Magic Missile trick. 
> 
> But it also delays spell progression as Warlock doesn't add to spell casting.


Basically this.   :Small Smile: 

I see the primary purpose of Hobgoblin as getting tanky _without_ slowing casting progression.  If I were to take a Hexblade dip, I would probably choose a different race.

----------


## CMCC

> Basically this.  
> 
> I see the primary purpose of Hobgoblin as getting tanky _without_ slowing casting progression.  If I were to take a Hexblade dip, I would probably choose a different race.


Im ok with the different race. Hexblade saves a feat - at a cost of a single level and adds AoA which can be a primary non-action based source of damage, protection, and recharging your ward when recast. 

Its important to note that your version is a tanky god wizard, while the hexblade dip makes it more of a melee caster. Idk if you can even call it a gish though.

----------


## Ir0ns0ul

> I actually agree, like 95% (I also really love the arcana cleric).  This is a wizard 100% of the way, and if anything at all slows him down it's that single feat (which is totally worth it over a +2 INT).
> 
> It's the perfect wizard IMHO.


Completely agree -- being able to not delay your Wizard spell progression is tremendously good. In my case specifically, we use a more generous point-buy system, where we can start out of the gate with 18 INT, so Moderately Armored at level 4 is awesome (my DEX is actually 15, so even better).




> I was thinking that War Wizard (as previously said) but also Chronurgy can fit very well this build.
> I think Chronurgy is very op at low level. The level 2 gives you a Portent variant plus the best half of War Wizard.
> Level 6 is a free one-round Hold Person.


I do agree that Chronurgy is really powerful, but I rather stick with the safety of Portent with Divination. War Wizard, on the other hand, I don't think it adds too much because Saving Face is a very good (short-rest recharge) ability to help you through hard saving throws.

Since the main appeal of my character is a Hobgoblin Wizard who neglected the battle-oriented origins of his race and made a perpetual vow of non-violence, War Wizard (and Evoker) are out of question. Leaning towards Abjuration for protection or Divination just to play the classic "god wizard style" a little bit!




> Im ok with the different race. Hexblade saves a feat - at a cost of a single level and adds AoA which can be a primary non-action based source of damage, protection, and recharging your ward when recast. 
> 
> Its important to note that your version is a tanky god wizard, while the hexblade dip makes it more of a melee caster. Idk if you can even call it a gish though.


I believe the main differentiator for this specific build is the fantastic synergies Hobgoblin race offers to Wizard. Light armor prof from 1 to 4 (no need to spend preps and slots in Mage Armor) + Saving Face whenever needed. Once you get Moderately Armored by level 4, you will have an amazing AC and you will probably save even more resources that could be used for Shield spell or something.

However, I do agree that AoA is OUTSTANDING for an Abjurer -- regardless the race. So the main synergy here is Arcane Ward + AoA. Actually, and I believe Ludic posted this build somewhere, Mark of Warding Dwarf offers this same combo without the need to dip into Hexblade. I don't know, personally speaking, I kind feel internal cringe whenever I need to take a Hexblade dip to make a particular build work, but this is just me, hehe.

----------


## CMCC

> Completely agree -- being able to not delay your Wizard spell progression is tremendously good. In my case specifically, we use a more generous point-buy system, where we can start out of the gate with 18 INT, so Moderately Armored at level 4 is awesome (my DEX is actually 15, so even better).
> 
> 
> 
> I do agree that Chronurgy is really powerful, but I rather stick with the safety of Portent with Divination. War Wizard, on the other hand, I don't think it adds too much because Saving Face is a very good (short-rest recharge) ability to help you through hard saving throws.
> 
> Since the main appeal of my character is a Hobgoblin Wizard who neglected the battle-oriented origins of his race and made a perpetual vow of non-violence, War Wizard (and Evoker) are out of question. Leaning towards Abjuration for protection or Divination just to play the classic "god wizard style" a little bit!
> 
> 
> ...


But this dip is basically for armor and AoA not any of the standard hexblade dip tools (curse, warrior for SAD etc). If that makes it any better.

----------


## Ir0ns0ul

> But this dip is basically for armor and AoA not any of the standard hexblade dip tools (curse, warrior for SAD etc). If that makes it any better.


Actually, you can still abuse Hexblade Curse with Magic Missile, Scorching Ray and other similar spells to also cover a common gap for Wizard in terms of single target damage. Hexblade dip is a true front-loaded powerhouse for -almost- everyone, indeed.

But from my personal experience, I often think it's really frustrating wait one more level to get better spells. Of course Hexblade totally compensates for this, but it's one entire level that you will not have Web, Misty Step, Hold Person, Fireball (!), Hypnotic Pattern and other goodies.

That's why I really like the aforementioned Hobgoblin Iron Wizard -- it's simple and straightforward, but it's brilliant! By level 4 you will have an amazing AC, add some PFG&E or Blur, and your Cleric buddie with Shield of Faith will be super jealous of you, hehehe.

----------


## rambler13

I've got a build that goes Paladin 2 / Hexblade 1 / College of Swords Bard 16 / Sorcerer 1. 18th Level Caster, same as a Paladin in Melee with more and better smites, maximum flexibility in and out of combat and a nova capability on a 19-20 crit that just evaporates enemies. It feels like the strongest character I've ever built.

----------


## LudicSavant

> I've got a build that goes Paladin 2 / Hexblade 1 / College of Swords Bard 16 / Sorcerer 1. 18th Level Caster, same as a Paladin in Melee with more and better smites, maximum flexibility in and out of combat and a nova capability on a 19-20 crit that just evaporates enemies. It feels like the strongest character I've ever built.


I had one pretty similar to that, except without the Sorcerer level.  What's the Sorc level in there for, anyway?

----------


## CMCC

> I had one pretty similar to that, except without the Sorcerer level.  What's the Sorc level in there for, anyway?


And whats the subclass? Divine soul?

LS, do you have that build breakdown?

----------


## Klorox

> I had one pretty similar to that, except without the Sorcerer level.  What's the Sorc level in there for, anyway?


I was going to say Shield, but Hexblade gives you that already.  Maybe just for cantrips? 

I love this also, I was strongly considering something very similar for an upcoming OotA game I'll be playing in.

Having two fighting styles will make you a better combatant than a paladin in some instances.

----------


## CMCC

Sorc 1 for con saves Im guessing

----------


## Klorox

> Sorc 1 for con saves Im guessing


Ooof, thats a steep price to pay for losing heavy armor, especially since a 13 STR is already required to make this multiclass happen.

----------


## CMCC

> Ooof, thats a steep price to pay for losing heavy armor, especially since a 13 STR is already required to make this multiclass happen.


Or maybe take divine soul late for that extra 2d4 favored by the gods?

----------


## Skylivedk

> Or maybe take divine soul late for that extra 2d4 favored by the gods?


Instead of Foresight? That seems... Off

----------


## CMCC

> Instead of Foresight? That seems... Off


Ha yeah. Fair point.

----------


## Jellypants

> If I were to take a Hexblade dip, I would probably choose a different race.


With the new ability score reshuffling for AL, I recently made a goliath character based around this concept. It was mostly for fun, but as I played the first fight it suddenly dawned on me that there is a nice little synergy between Goliath Stone's Endurance and AoA. As you level up and your arcane ward becomes stronger it might be less effective overall, but still occasionally useful.

----------


## LudicSavant

> With the new ability score reshuffling for AL, I recently made a goliath character based around this concept. It was mostly for fun, but as I played the first fight it suddenly dawned on me that there is a nice little synergy between Goliath Stone's Endurance and AoA.


Yep.  I actually posted a build based on that back in one of the Tasha's threads.

----------


## Jellypants

> Yep.  I actually posted a build based on that back in one of the Tasha's threads.


Oh, neat. I'll go look for it then. I only noticed it mid fight with a bunch of zombies XD

BTW, lots of people are saying War2/Abjurer X for the mage armor invocation, but is it really worth it? More effective arcane ward recovery for falling yet another level behind in casting and spell slot levels seems like a very steep price to pay. Everything else good you already get at level 1. I feel like I would regret taking that second level over time...

----------


## CMCC

> Yep.  I actually posted a build based on that back in one of the Tasha's threads.


What about that bard/hex/pal build? Is it posted somewhere?

----------


## Benny89

I wonder if they will add those invocation feats in Tasha.

Because then Mark of Warding Dwarf + Abjuration Wizard + Feat: Armor of Shadow invocation would probably be pretty sick. Though 1 level of Artificer for shields + medium armor would be best to start.



Also I remember Sharpshooter Darts Ancestral Barbarian build somewhere here but I can't find it - anyone could help?

----------


## Ir0ns0ul

> I wonder if they will add those invocation feats in Tasha.
> 
> Because then Mark of Warding Dwarf + Abjuration Wizard + Feat: Armor of Shadow invocation would probably be pretty sick. Though 1 level of Artificer for shields + medium armor would be best to start.


You dont even need this feat that much as a Warding Dwarf. You have a free cast of Mage Armor and you can keep up your Arcane Ward pretty well with things like Absorb Elements, Shield, Counterspell and of course whenever needed to recast Armor of Agathys. Its a little bit of resource management, but you are really well served with Abjuration spells that complement your style.

----------


## CMCC

So for the celestial generalist what do you take after 12?

----------


## CMCC

> The other party members include a Hexblade/Echo Knight archer (with Devil's Sight), a Lore Bard, and a 3rd party Monk subclass.


How does the hex/echo function in combat? Isnt echo a melee heavy subclass? Or do you basically forgo the unleashed incarnation - fire arrows from both yourself and the echo, while using the echo as a free teleport when enemies get close?

----------


## LudicSavant

> How does the hex/echo function in combat? Isnt echo a melee heavy subclass? Or do you basically forgo the unleashed incarnation - fire arrows from both yourself and the echo, while using the echo as a free teleport when enemies get close?


It functions pretty similarly to the Hexblade/Battle Master build I posted a ways back, but with a bonus action teleport and occasional extra attack rather than maneuvers.  The choice of Echo subclass in particular was largely flavor/fun based rather than any particular optimization imperative relative to BM.

----------


## CMCC

> It functions pretty similarly to the Hexblade/Battle Master build I posted a ways back, but with a bonus action teleport and occasional extra attack rather than maneuvers.  The choice of Echo subclass in particular was largely flavor/fun based rather than any particular optimization imperative relative to BM.


Would you go fighter 3/hex X?

----------


## LudicSavant

> Would you go fighter 3/hex X?


Fighter 3 = any time after Hexblade 12.

----------


## Tekrow

Any fun and thematic builds that use archery besides the Feywarden?

----------


## Evaar

> Any fun and thematic builds that use archery besides the Feywarden?


What's the theme you're looking for?

----------


## CMCC

> Any fun and thematic builds that use archery besides the Feywarden?


Check that post directly above. Hexblade archer is pretty powerful.

----------


## Tekrow

> What's the theme you're looking for?


Any, I'm just looking for archery builds.

----------


## Ir0ns0ul

> Any, I'm just looking for archery builds.


There is the Samurai Archer build from Ludic as well. Pretty well rounded and flavorful Fighter.

More I think about it, more I realize how Rogue is an outstanding archery class. The synergy between Cunning Action: Hide & deadly long-shots is very good. You can leverage several great races like Wood Elf, Shadar-Kai and Mark of Shadow Elf, etc.

Classic first level start as a Fighter for CON prof, better initial HP and Fighting Style (Archery) and then full Rogue. Less skillmonkey, more combative.

----------


## jaappleton

I won't lie, I think the last two days have been my first time perusing this topic. 

And I've got to say, I'm having flashbacks at what the old official WOTC optimization forums used to look like. Nearly shed a tear, but I've only cried twice: One when I was seven and hit by a schoolbus, and again when I learned that Little Sebastian had died. 

Moving on:

Sincere tip of the hat to everyone on their builds. There's some really fun, unique stuff in here. 

May I put in a request?

_I have a short game coming up, maybe 3-5 sessions. We start at 7th level. MCing available, as are all official races and content. Also, we can use UA so long as its the latest version and hasn't been abandoned (So tattoos yes, but Lore Wizard no). Start with two magic items, both Uncommon. And everyone starts with a free bonus feat. And for clarification, this also includes Ravnica backgrounds if you want to get weird with a spell list or something._

I'd like to hit things, hopefully several times a round, and since its going to be a short campaign I thought this would be an opportunity to try something weird.

----------


## jojosskul

> I won't lie, I think the last two days have been my first time perusing this topic. 
> 
> And I've got to say, I'm having flashbacks at what the old official WOTC optimization forums used to look like. Nearly shed a tear, but I've only cried twice: One when I was seven and hit by a schoolbus, and again when I learned that Little Sebastian had died. 
> 
> Moving on:
> 
> Sincere tip of the hat to everyone on their builds. There's some really fun, unique stuff in here. 
> 
> May I put in a request?
> ...


Honestly if you like hitting things, in this situation I'd personally choose to just take all my levels in Rune Knight fighter.  Since it's somewhat bonus action heavy I'd lean towards GWM, but it can do some really cool stuff, and if you reach level 11 before this ends (not sure the progression rate you're looking at) three attacks with a base of 3d6 plus strength is awesome, two attacks of course is pretty great there too.

First uncommon item would be weapon of choice +1.  Second uncommon item I'd go with boots of flying for those pesky ranged/flying enemies.

Pretty basic, but I like Rune Knight and it does some cool/weird stuff.

EDIT:  Scratch the winged boots, forgot the Int based nature of it's save DCs.  Headband of Intellect is absolutely the better choice here.

----------


## Hairfish

> _I have a short game coming up, maybe 3-5 sessions. We start at 7th level. MCing available, as are all official races and content. Also, we can use UA so long as its the latest version and hasn't been abandoned (So tattoos yes, but Lore Wizard no). Start with two magic items, both Uncommon. And everyone starts with a free bonus feat. And for clarification, this also includes Ravnica backgrounds if you want to get weird with a spell list or something._
> 
> I'd like to hit things, hopefully several times a round, and since its going to be a short campaign I thought this would be an opportunity to try something weird.


Echo Knight 5, War Cleric 2, GWM, gauntlets of ogre power, magic greatsword, heavy armor, and stat for Con and Wis. If you pull out all the stops, you've got an 8 attack melee alpha strike at level 7, which you can make from up to 45' away (including up). Your bonus action will never go unused. You won't go first in the round, but that just gives the other PCs time to apply Faerie Fire or some other source of advantage to the big enemies for you.

----------


## jojosskul

So I accidentally brainstormed this build on another thread, really like it, and decided to post it here.

*The Naked Dragon*

*Concept:*  The concept of the exercise was to create an effective character that uses NO equipment.  No weapons, no armor, no spell components, not even clothes.  This was my take on it, and I like it enough that I may consider playing it next time I'm not forever DM.

*Class:* Draconic Sorcerer

One of the problems you need to solve with using no equipment is how to get a survivable AC.  Mage Armor doesn't work since it has a component, so Draconic Sorcerer's "built-in" Mage Armor works nicely, and we won't say no to an extra HP per level.  I'd recommend either Red or Gold, even though we don't get Fireball since we don't touch bat guano (ew!) we get a few other decent fire spells, and we need to pick something.

*Race:*  Half Elf
Anything with darkvision works here (Light and Dancing Lights both have material components) but there's nothing wrong with sticking with a classic.  And yes you'll be naked, but if your charisma is high enough people tend to mind less.

*Background:*  Entertainer

Most guides skip this, since custom background is RAW.  But for once this matters, since you have to eat and find shelter for your poor naked self.  The Entertainer background feature will let you get free room and board in exchange for your "performances."  Just make sure you take performance proficiency.

*Build at level 1:*  With point buy

Str 8 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 17

Leave all your starting equipment and gold on the side of the road.  Material possessions mean nothing to The Naked Dragon.

Spell selection:
Cantrips:  Fire Bolt, Control Flames, Prestidigitation, Shocking Grasp
Level 1: Shield, Burning Hands

None of these spells require material components, and this is a perfectly viable level 1 build.  You could even take 16 Con if you wanted and didn't mind two mental dump stats, giving you the same starting HP as a d8 character with 14 con thanks to Draconic Sorcerer.

*Build at Level 5*
ASI:  Elven Accuracy 

Updated Potential Spell List:

Cantrips:  Add Mage Hand
Level 1: Shield, Disguise Self (In case you need to be not naked for an hour)
Level 2: Scorching Ray, Pyrotechnics
Level 3: Enemies Abound, Thunderstep

3rd level spells will feel the worst without material components, but I promise it gets better.  Especially since you have...

Metamagics:  Subtle, Quicken

Subtle is key to the themes of this build.  Since you never use material components, as long as you have sorcery points you can make it so that it looks like the crazy naked half elf covered in scales is never actually casting spells at all.  This makes Enemies Abound a really nice big gun spell to tide you over until level 4 spells.  Quicken works well with Thunderstep and Pyrotechnics on this list, since we're mildly leaning into the fire bug theme.  Cast Fire Bolt to set something on fire, then quicken Pyrotechnics to get around the whole "non-magical" fire bit.

*Build at Level 11*

ASI: CHA +2

Updated Spell List:
Cantrips:  Add whatever, Shape Water or Mold Earth could be useful.
1st Level: Shield, Disguise Self
2nd Level: Scorching Ray, Mirror Image
3rd Level: Thunderstep, Counterspell
4th Level: Storm Sphere, Greater Invisibility
5th Level: Animate Objects, Telekinises, Synaptic Static 
6th Level: Eyebite

At this point Quicken has really taken off, and this looks almost like a regular sorcerer list except you still use NO material components.  Certain fights you can drop Eyebite or Telekinises and quicken Scorching Rays and Synaptic Statics on subsequent turns.  When sorcery points later get low you have Storm Sphere and Animate Objects to fall back on to make sure your action economy is always on point.

There are reasons to take Absorb Elements instead of Disguise Self at this point, but I feel like Disguise Self is thematic for the concept so I left it in.

Metamagic: For the new one I'd take twin.  It can increase your cantrip damage by a lot, and while you can't use it with Polymorph, you do have greater invisibility at this point.

Keep in mind, against enemy casters save some sorcery points for subtle.  They can't counter you then, so both your big guns, and YOUR counterspells, are sure to go off.

Extra Features:  You've gained your plus to fire damage, and spending one sorcery point to gain fire resistance is always nice ot have in your back pocket.

*Build at 17*

ASIs: +2 DEX, Inspiring Leader

These are open for whatever you like since you've maxed Charisma, but I do recommend at least one, if not both ASIs in Dex, since you have literally no way to further increase your AC and still be The Naked Dragon.  Better initiative and stealth rolls are gravy.

Elemental Adept: Fire is also reasonable.

Spells: (From now on only doing what's new)
Cantrip: Dealer's Choice
7th Level: Fire Storm
8th Level: Dominate Monster
9th Level: Wish.  Also, drop Storm Sphere and grab another 9th level spell, probably Meteor Swarm.

Metamagic:  For your final Metamagic grab Heighten.  Disadvantaged saves are great, especially since you can now cast ANY spell of 8th level or lower with Wish.

Extra Features: You can fly now!  And you're a damn good Sorcerer, and you never needed any equipment, or clothes, to get there!  Congrats!

*Build at 20*

No more spells, no more cantrips, no more metamagic.  I recommend hitting 18 for your final Draconic feature, because damn it people should be in awe, or fear, your beautiful Naked Dragon self. And at that point you might as well just grab that last Feat at 19 and then finally get that thing those Sorlocks keep raving about with some Sorcery points back on a short rest at 20.  Or take a 2 level dip in something at any point, I'm not your mom.  If I was I never would have let you leave the house with out at least a sweater.

----------


## Tekrow

Is there anything like the Celestial Generalist but for archery? I'm looking for an archer with party face abilities and magic. Archer damage over magical damage is fine, but some good magical utility is appreciated.

----------


## CMCC

> Is there anything like the Celestial Generalist but for archery? I'm looking for an archer with party face abilities and magic. Archer damage over magical damage is fine, but some good magical utility is appreciated.


Wouldnt that be a hexbow or a swords bard with a bow?

----------


## CMCC

Is there a good build guide for a war mage? Basically the opposite of LSs EK build Im guessing. Something thats more fighter 3/war mage 17 up to fighter 7/ wm 13?

----------


## Tekrow

> Wouldnt that be a hexbow or a swords bard with a bow?


Probably, I was mostly wondering if there were made builds similar to the Celestial Generalist but as an archer.

----------


## Evaar

> Is there a good build guide for a war mage? Basically the opposite of LSs EK build Im guessing. Something thats more fighter 3/war mage 17 up to fighter 7/ wm 13?


I'm not sure you can get much punch out of Fighter 3 on a Wizard. You get Action Surge at 2, allowing you to cast two non-cantrip spells in a single turn, but I'm not sure what a Wizard gains with Fighter 3. 

The reason Ludic's Soulknife build works is because its goal is to do Fighter stuff (tank/DPR), and it utilizes some Wizard tools to effectively meet those goals.

So the reverse build would be trying to accomplish Wizard stuff (battlefield control, utility, blasting), and it would be trying to enhance that via Fighter tools. But in just about every case, you'd be better off focusing on being a Wizard. If you want to be a tanky Wizard... you're still better off focusing on being a Wizard, as illustrated by the Iron Wizard above.

Best I can offer would be taking Fighter 2 and going Bladesinger. Utilize Two Weapon Fighting with things like Tenser's Transformation and Song of Victory. Use Action Surge to combo spells in ways that most Wizards can't. But this still isn't going to be better at general Wizard stuff than if you'd just gone full Wizard. It's sacrificing Wizard stuff so that you can play at melee DPR now and then - and you won't likely even be great at that when you do it.

----------


## x3n0n

> Is there anything like the Celestial Generalist but for archery? I'm looking for an archer with party face abilities and magic. *Archer damage over magical damage is fine*, but some good magical utility is appreciated.





> Probably, I was mostly wondering if there were made builds similar to the Celestial Generalist but as an archer.


Not sure how to interpret the bolded clause.

If magic is ok instead of a bow, then the Celestial Generalist already has Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast, and Repelling Blast, for archer-like damage and extra battlefield control.

If you need a bow in specific, then the only way to do that in Warlock is via Pact of the Blade, so you lose a lot of utility that you would normally get from Pact of the Tome.

Given that, I'd probably change classes. Perhaps a variant of the Wood Elf Duelist on the front page? A Ranger plus Ritual Caster? An Eldritch Knight with one of the dragonmark races for healing spells?

----------


## Tekrow

> Not sure how to interpret the bolded clause.
> 
> If magic is ok instead of a bow, then the Celestial Generalist already has Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast, and Repelling Blast, for archer-like damage and extra battlefield control.
> 
> If you need a bow in specific, then the only way to do that in Warlock is via Pact of the Blade, so you lose a lot of utility that you would normally get from Pact of the Tome.
> 
> Given that, I'd probably change classes. Perhaps a variant of the Wood Elf Duelist on the front page? A Ranger plus Ritual Caster? An Eldritch Knight with one of the dragonmark races for healing spells?


Sorry if I didn't explain myself properly. What I'm looking for is a build that uses bows(crossbows could work, but I vastly prefer bows), and besides that has magic and party face skills. What I mean with the bolded part is that I'm not looking for magic to be my main source of damage, but the bow. I'm fine with magic being more utility and to compliment the archery.

----------


## CMCC

> I'm not sure you can get much punch out of Fighter 3 on a Wizard. You get Action Surge at 2, allowing you to cast two non-cantrip spells in a single turn, but I'm not sure what a Wizard gains with Fighter 3. 
> 
> The reason Ludic's Soulknife build works is because its goal is to do Fighter stuff (tank/DPR), and it utilizes some Wizard tools to effectively meet those goals.
> 
> So the reverse build would be trying to accomplish Wizard stuff (battlefield control, utility, blasting), and it would be trying to enhance that via Fighter tools. But in just about every case, you'd be better off focusing on being a Wizard. If you want to be a tanky Wizard... you're still better off focusing on being a Wizard, as illustrated by the Iron Wizard above.
> 
> Best I can offer would be taking Fighter 2 and going Bladesinger. Utilize Two Weapon Fighting with things like Tenser's Transformation and Song of Victory. Use Action Surge to combo spells in ways that most Wizards can't. But this still isn't going to be better at general Wizard stuff than if you'd just gone full Wizard. It's sacrificing Wizard stuff so that you can play at melee DPR now and then - and you won't likely even be great at that when you do it.


I guess what Im saying is on the Gish sliding scale (1 being EK 20 and 10 being Bladesinger 20) the soul knife is somewhere around a 3. If you wanted to make something in that 5-8 range, using a war mage (like Treantmonks war mage build - gith f3/wm 17); is there a guide or build for that somewhere? Or just a war mage guide in general would be fine I guess. Im new. Its hard for me to know whats available and not - search functionality doesnt always show the best results.

----------


## x3n0n

> Sorry if I didn't explain myself properly. What I'm looking for is a build that uses bows(crossbows could work, but I vastly prefer bows), and besides that has magic and party face skills. What I mean with the bolded part is that I'm not looking for magic to be my main source of damage, but the bow. I'm fine with magic being more utility and to compliment the archery.


Got it. I was probably just being dense. :)

Is Sneak Attack enough damage to satisfy you? If so, Arcane Trickster plus Ritual Caster plus some source of Guidance (Magic Initiate, Wood Elf Magic, or multiclass) might fit the bill. Bonus points for being Elvish so as to take Elven Accuracy and maybe use a longbow.

Edit: I found this guide useful when playing my AT: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ckster-s-Guide

----------


## Tekrow

> Got it. I was probably just being dense. :)
> 
> Is Sneak Attack enough damage to satisfy you? If so, Arcane Trickster plus Ritual Caster plus some source of Guidance (Magic Initiate, Wood Elf Magic, or multiclass) might fit the bill. Bonus points for being Elvish so as to take Elven Accuracy and maybe use a longbow.
> 
> Edit: I found this guide useful when playing my AT: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ckster-s-Guide


Thanks! I'll check it out!

----------


## x3n0n

> Thanks! I'll check it out!


As a quick stab at a magic utility Rogue archer:

Variant Human: 8/16/14/14/10/12 including bonuses, Arcana, Magic Initiate: Druid (Guidance, Mold Earth or Shape Water, Goodberry) or MI:Cleric (Guidance,?,?)
Rogue + Background for desired skills (acro, stealth, perception, face stuff) and Expertise
Shortbow and shortsword

Lv3: Arcane Trickster, Find Familiar and whatever else (if party face, maybe Disguise Self and/or Charm Person)

Take Ritual Caster: Wizard at lv4, 8, or 10, and retrain Find Familiar after that.

Optionally, if you don't need Guidance early:
* swap RC:W in as your v.human feat or
* Elf for 17 Dex, then Elven Accuracy at 4 or
* Half-elf gets you extra Cha, still take EA at some point.

See many other builds in this thread for Wizard rituals worth learning. The early highlight for a Rogue is Find Familiar (Owl), especially relevant to Help you attack with advantage for Sneak Attack.

Goodberry is not action-efficient like Celestial Warlock's Healing Light, but can still be effective for early levels and can do pop-up healing via familiar or Unseen Servant if DM allows.

Elvish heritage delays your utility feats, but offers longbow proficiency, darkvision, and EA at lv4 for better accuracy and crit rate on your Sneak Attacks. Wood Elf allows Wood Elf Magic, buying you Guidance and daily Pass Without Trace (and daily Longstrider).

----------


## Evaar

> Sorry if I didn't explain myself properly. What I'm looking for is a build that uses bows(crossbows could work, but I vastly prefer bows), and besides that has magic and party face skills. What I mean with the bolded part is that I'm not looking for magic to be my main source of damage, but the bow. I'm fine with magic being more utility and to compliment the archery.


Hexbow does all this very well. Improved Pact Weapon opens bows as an option, after that you mostly do Warlock stuff. Go Half Elf and take Elven Accuracy, get a regular source of advantage via either party or your own tools, grab Sharpshooter. Youre an archer with spells and invocations and high charisma.

----------


## minniehajj

> Is there a good build guide for a war mage? Basically the opposite of LSs EK build Im guessing. Something thats more fighter 3/war mage 17 up to fighter 7/ wm 13?


Treantmonk's did this with a Githyanki, you can find it on his YT (I am too new to this forum so I can't post links yet :( ).

Look for Treantmonk's guide to wizards

----------


## CMCC

> Treantmonk's did this with a Githyanki, you can find it on his YT (I am too new to this forum so I can't post links yet :( ).
> 
> Look for Treantmonk's guide to wizards


Thanks I really like that one - was wondering if there were others, maybe on this site.

----------


## ftafp

for curiosity's sake has anyone found an elegant way to build a Dragoon yet? ive got a build im in the middle of refining that's a mix of dragon sorcerer and glory paladin but i want to see if anyone has a better way of going about it

----------


## Ir0ns0ul

> 7. I play a VHuman Abjurer in probably the most fun campaign I've had in a long time. So when it came time for my Hobgoblin Wizard, I went Necromancer. Still works like a dream, but Abjurer has to be my favorite Wizard subclass.


Im playing a Hobgoblin Iron Wizard as well, but I went Divination in order to do more battlefield control/debuff consistently. Just reached level 3 last session, got Hold Person (campaign is full of humanoids) and Web - super excited to spam lots of webs like Spider-Man in the next few sessions.

As of now, Sleep have been a no-brainer spell for me. Im registering all damage done by my allies, and then trying to calculate and predict creatures remaining HP in order to precisely use Sleep as a finisher whenever needed. This is ending our encounters like 2-3 rounds before expected, so Im capitalizing a lot on it.

----------


## bendking

Introducing, the *Arcane Blade*.



Alright, here's something I thought about a year ago or so but never really got down to writing. 
I always loved the concept of a Magician Rogue, but I wasn't quite happy with the power level of the Arcane Trickster by itself. Thus, the purpose of this build is to make the ultimate Arcane Trickster.
Deciding on the exact level split and progression on this wasn't easy, and it might be possible to further optimized, but I really just wanted to put it to writing and see how it shakes out.
As always, feedback is highly appreciated.

Race: High Elf/Mark of Shadow Elf (+1 CHA --> +1 INT with TCoE)
Classes: Arcane Trickster 9/Bladesinger 11
Stats (Point Buy): 8 STR / 17 DEX / 14 CON / 16 INT / 10 WIS / 8 CHA
ASIs: Elven Accuracy, Mobile, +2 DEX, +2 INT, +2 INT
Progression:  Bladesinger 6 --> Arcane Trickster 9 --> Blade Singer 11

*Notes on level progression*
The aim of this progression is to get a somewhat on-time ASI progression, which would be compromised if you would zig-zag between the classes, though you could do that.
I didn't take rogue up to the 5th level because your reaction is already plenty busy with Shield and Absorb Elements, so Uncanny Dodge would only saturate your reaction further.
Regarding level 11 and above, you may continue leveling BS instead of AT if you want more spellcasting power. I simply felt like increasing melee power and going for the awesome 9th level feature of AT is more thematic for this build, but there are arguments to be made for either path.

*Spell Selection*
I went up to the 9th level since at that point you already have most of your core spells.

Cantrips
Level 1 - Booming Blade (High Elf) | Green-flame Blade, Firebolt, Minor Illusion
Level 4 - Blade Ward
Level 9 - Mage Hand, Message, Toll the Dead

Spells
Level 1 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Grease, Fog Cloud
Level 2 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Grease, Fog Cloud, Longstrider, Detect Magic
Level 3 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Grease, Fog Cloud, Longstrider, Detect Magic
| Shadow Blade, Mirror Image
Level 4 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Grease, Fog Cloud, Longstrider, Detect Magic
| Shadow Blade, Mirror Image, Suggestion, Hold Person
Level 5 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Grease, Fog Cloud, Longstrider, Detect Magic
| Shadow Blade, Mirror Image, Suggestion, Hold Person | Counterspell, Fireball
Level 6 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Grease, Fog Cloud, Longstrider, Detect Magic
| Shadow Blade, Mirror Image, Suggestion, Hold Person | Counterspell, Fireball, Blink, Hypnotic Pattern
Level 9 - AT: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Silent Image, Charm Person
Level 10- AT: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Silent Image, Charm Person, Disguise Self

*Typical combat flow*
1st turn: Activate Bladesong with your bonus action, and throw down a non-concentration spell (Grease/Mirror Image/Blink/Fireball).
2nd turn: Cast Shadow Blade and go to town with either Booming Blade or Extra Attack (depending on your level). Using your Owl's Help action you can guarantee a triple advantage BB, which is always great.
3rd turn: Adapt as necessary.

*Summary*
I'll be comparing this build to a single-classed Arcane Trickster, which is the strongest Rogue, in my opinion, to show the merits of this build.
First off, we have a damn high AC with Mage Armor and Bladesong active. At level 6, we go up to an AC of 20 from the word go, and with Shield we go up to 25. Normal AT AC caps at 17.
Our damage is also great. At level 11, with Shadow Blade upcasted to 3rd level, we surpass a straight AT's DPR by 10.5 (AT 11 DPR vs 17 AC is 28 with Sneak Attack proccing). This also surpasses an EK's DPR at this level by 5. This build surpasses straight-ATs DPR beginning at level 6 thanks to Bladesinger's Extra Attack and the gap only widens from there.
Lastly, we have _much_ better casting than a straight AT, and much more utility outside of combat.

Overall, this build sports a high AC, great melee damage, high mobility, strong spell-casting, and ludicrous utility from both the Rogue's Expertise and the Wizard's ritual casting.

*Spoiler: Appendix A: 2nd ASI Feat Choice*
Show

I had considered 3 main choices for this build: Warcaster, Sentinel, and Mobile. I ended up going with Mobile because I think it makes you more versatile. That said, all of these feats are great and you can take whichever you fancy most. Let's look at the benefits of each feat at level 11 with 3rd level Shadow Blade active:
Warcaster: 5d8 + 3d6 + 4 OA on traditional trigger. Reliant on people actually running away from you. Good for tanking, good for keeping concentration on your Shadowblade, good for being able to wield a sword on your off-hand. 
Sentinel: 3d8 + 3d6 OA on enemy miss. Reliant on Mirror Image being active since without it you're liable to use your reaction on Shield. Good for tanking, good for off-turn sneak attack damage.
Mobile: Gives you more speed, putting you at 50ft. with Bladesong active, making you more of a skirmisher and allowing you to take out enemies in the backlines. Also makes triggering the extra damage from Booming Blade's rider a lot easier, which thanks to Tasha's we'll be inflicting even when using Extra Attack. It also keeps your Bonus Action free from Disengaging to ensure the rider proccing, thus letting you hold a Shortsword in your off-hand for some extra DPR when you have nothing important to do with your Cunning Action.

Variants:
1. Now that Bladesinger is not Elf exclusive, you can take V.Human or Custom Origin to get Mobile/Sentinel/Warcaster at 1st level, and thus delay your ASIs less. However, I still find Elf compelling, because Darkvision is important for a character that mainly uses Shadowblade.
2. Mark of Shadow Elf would be a great fit now that you can switch his +1 CHA to +1 INT with Tasha's. Pass Without Trace is amazing for a sneaky character. This is probably my top pick for this build.

EDIT #1: Modified spell list inspired by Mikimba (Mage Armor puts us at 20/25 AC!), fixed error with claiming this build surpasses AT DPR before level 11. That is actually false, though it does keep up well enough in my eyes.
Also switched the image because I like this one better. If anyone finds a better fitting image, especially with a Shadow Blade featured, do let me know  :Small Big Grin: 

EDIT 2#: Switched level progression to take Bladesinger 6 first because Tasha's is going to be buffing his Extra Attack feature, making the DPR curve on this progression smoother and consistently above a regular ATs DPR.

EDIT 3#: Added V.Human, Custom Origin and Mark of Shadow Elf as race options.

----------


## Tekrow

> Introducing, the *Arcane Blade*.
> 
> 
> 
> Alright, here's something I thought about a year ago or so but never really got down to writing. 
> I always loved the concept of a Mage Rogue, so the Arcane Trickster & Bladesinger MC is a natural choice. Deciding on the exact level split and progression on this wasn't easy, and it might be possible to further optimized, but I really just wanted to put it to writing and see how it shakes out.
> As always, feedback is highly appreciated.
> 
> Race: High Elf
> ...


I like your build, I've been wanting to build something similar(but with CHA). But I do have a question, what's the interesting part to get from AT that you can't get from Bladesinger?

----------


## bendking

> I like your build, I've been wanting to build something similar(but with CHA). But I do have a question, what's the interesting part to get from AT that you can't get from Bladesinger?


That's a good question, and to be honest, I'm not completely sold on using Rogue either, since Wizards are just so damn powerful. I mainly wanted to make something that is thematically an Arcane Trickster type but better than that class.
That said, I'll still try to list some benefits to Rogue being in this build. Basically, you get the good old Rogue advantages mixed with much better spellcasting, melee damage, and AC, which is exactly what you'd expect.
Early on, you get some Sneak Attack for more melee power than a Bladesinger can muster on its own, and the Dexterity save proficiency which helps a lot on the frontlines. 
Then there's Expertise, giving you a measure of utility which is arguably exclusive to the Rogue and Bard, especially with picking locks and disabling traps, both of which are heightened by the AT's Legerdemain.
Later on, you get more Expertise, more Sneak Attack, and the ever great Evasion, which gives you even more staying power on the battlefield.
EDIT: And of course, the fantastic Magical Ambush which lets you open encounters with Hold Peron or Hypnotic Pattern with disadvantage on the saving throw. Thanks to @x3n0n for reminding me.

----------


## x3n0n

> I like your build, I've been wanting to build something similar(but with CHA). But I do have a question, what's the interesting part to get from AT that you can't get from Bladesinger?


All good points in his response; I'll add AT 9's Magical Ambush (which you get at character 15). It opens up an alternate way to start an encounter: Hide and use a debuff, imposing disadvantage on the save (or saves, if AoE or upcast). Hold Person and Hypnotic Pattern hit way more reliably that way.

----------


## Ir0ns0ul

> Introducing, the *Arcane Blade*.
> 
> ... AWESOME BUILD!


Really great build and setup, thanks for that! I never thought about how Mobile could be useful for an AT abusing Booming Blade. You can explore big time hit-run-hide tactics and give a huge pain for the enemies. It's like a magical trapper ninja -- get your Owl familiar to Help, Booming Blade SA your enemy, move back without repercussion (Mobile) and then hide with your bonus action (Cunning Action). Great catch!




> Spells
> Level 3 - AT: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Silent Image, Fog Cloud
> Level 4 - AT: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Silent Image, Fog Cloud, Disguise Self
> Level 5 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, Grease, Detect Magic, Expeditious Retreat


If you allow me some suggestions: I believe you selected too much Concentration spells that will conflict sometimes. I understand you don't so have many slots to spend, but I would recommend more utility and variation for your level 3 and 4 selection, like Sleep and Charm Person. 

For the level 5 selection: why did you pick Expeditious Retreat as one of your spells? I believe Cunning Action already cover your basis with that. You could get better things with that like False Life, PFE&G, more rituals, etc. Perhaps get Longstrider before.

----------


## bendking

> Really great build and setup, thanks for that! I never thought about how Mobile could be useful for an AT abusing Booming Blade. You can explore big time hit-run-hide tactics and give a huge pain for the enemies. It's like a magical trapper ninja -- get your Owl familiar to Help, Booming Blade SA your enemy, move back without repercussion (Mobile) and then hide with your bonus action (Cunning Action). Great catch!


Thank you for the compliments!
I'm not the first to spot that combo, it's kind of a staple for Arcane Trickster as far as I'm concerned, but I'm glad I could educate :)




> If you allow me some suggestions: I believe you selected too much Concentration spells that will conflict sometimes. I understand you don't so have many slots to spend, but I would recommend more utility and variation for your level 3 and 4 selection, like Sleep and Charm Person. 
> 
> For the level 5 selection: why did you pick Expeditious Retreat as one of your spells? I believe Cunning Action already cover your basis with that. You could get better things with that like False Life, PFE&G, more rituals, etc. Perhaps get Longstrider before.


Good catch, I thought that Expeditious Retreat did what it does in 3.5, and it definitely doesn't, so I'll go ahead and replace it with Longstrider earlier and Charm Person later.
The reason I didn't take Sleep is that it doesn't scale well. By the time you can get it, which is level 3, it already starts struggling. It's definitely a very powerful spell at the first few levels, but I can't justify taking it so late.
I also wasn't worried about conflicting concentration spells early on because you only get Shadow Blade at level 7. It might stand to reason to start replacing some of them when you do get it, though.
EDIT: Alright, I do see what you mean for levels 3 and 4. I've replaced Fog Cloud with Grease. Should be less concentration saturation now.

Regarding the rituals, I didn't bother mentioning them because I assume the player will get them through scrolls and spellbooks independently.
All that said, I'll be happy to see what modifications you would make to the spell list if you'd like.

----------


## CMCC

> Introducing, the *Arcane Blade*.


Pic isnt working. Not sure if thats an issue for others.

Also great job on the build. Youve made rogues interesting to me - and thats no small feat.

----------


## Ir0ns0ul

> Thank you for the compliments!
> I'm not the first to spot that combo, it's kind of a staple for Arcane Trickster as far as I'm concerned, but I'm glad I could educate :).


Booming Blade + Cunning Action is pretty famous, but I have never thought about Mobile in this fashion. This could be a great feat to get as a vHuman AT. Once again, thanks!




> Regarding the rituals, I didn't bother mentioning them because I assume the player will get them through scrolls and spellbooks independently.
> All that said, I'll be happy to see what modifications you would make to the spell list if you'd like.


It's just personal taste, right? But my _changes_ would be:

Level 3 - AT: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, _Charm Person_, _False Life_
Level 4 - AT: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, _Charm Person_, _False Life_, Disguise Self
Level 5 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, _Mage Armor_, Detect Magic, _Grease_
Level 6 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, _Mage Armor_, _Longstrider or Fog Cloud_, _False Life_, Alarm, Detect Magic

I'm not a big fan of Silent Image due to the Concentration requirement and you can cover some things with Minor Illusion.I'm also a big fan of Charm Person to avoid unnecessary combats and also at some social situation.I know False Life is considered subpar, but at least in my tables THP is always good. I would select False Life earlier than Grease (or other good control spell) because you don't have too many consistent uses for your slots before getting Wizard multiclass -- usually the best choice will be to position/move/hide and attack with advantage to benefit from SA. Once you get things like Shield and Absorb Elements, you will always try to save some 1st level slots, but before that I believe False Life provides good value early on.I would also get Mage Armor -- AC is very hard to increase in 5e and sometimes you can see yourself without armor or get cought in surprise (although you can sleep without worries in Studded).From level 7 ownards, you pretty much nailed it: Mirror Image, Shadow Blade and etc. Since your Concentration will be usually dedicated to Shadow Blade, I rather get non-Concentration spells in order to avoid conflict and create good synergies.

----------


## Tekrow

> That's a good question, and to be honest, I'm not completely sold on using Rogue either, since Wizards are just so damn powerful. I mainly wanted to make something that is thematically an Arcane Trickster type but better than that class.
> That said, I'll still try to list some benefits to Rogue being in this build. Basically, you get the good old Rogue advantages mixed with much better spellcasting, melee damage, and AC, which is exactly what you'd expect.
> Early on, you get some Sneak Attack for more melee power than a Bladesinger can muster on its own, and the Dexterity save proficiency which helps a lot on the frontlines. 
> Then there's Expertise, giving you a measure of utility which is arguably exclusive to the Rogue and Bard, especially with picking locks and disabling traps, both of which are heightened by the AT's Legerdemain.
> Later on, you get more Expertise, more Sneak Attack, and the ever great Evasion, which gives you even more staying power on the battlefield.
> EDIT: And of course, the fantastic Magical Ambush which lets you open encounters with Hold Peron or Hypnotic Pattern with disadvantage on the saving throw. Thanks to @x3n0n for reminding me.


It does has some worthwhile additions. I've been trying to also make a magic rogue, a nightblade of sorts, but I've always felt that the AT by itself lacks something, so that's why I found your build so interesting.

----------


## bendking

> Pic isnt working. Not sure if thats an issue for others.
> 
> Also great job on the build. Youve made rogues interesting to me - and thats no small feat.


Seems to be trouble with either mobile or a specific mobile browser, because it works for me on PC but not on my phone.

Thanks! I'm glad to hear it, because I actually felt the same way. Arcane Trickster is the only interesting rogue to me, but I found the power level not up to par with other gishes, even though I love the flavor. Thus, I made this build.




> Booming Blade + Cunning Action is pretty famous, but I have never thought about Mobile in this fashion. This could be a great feat to get as a vHuman AT. Once again, thanks!


You're most welcome!




> It's just personal taste, right? But my _changes_ would be:
> 
> Level 3 - AT: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, _Charm Person_, _False Life_
> Level 4 - AT: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, _Charm Person_, _False Life_, Disguise Self
> Level 5 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, _Mage Armor_, Detect Magic, _Grease_
> Level 6 - WIZ: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, _Mage Armor_, _Longstrider or Fog Cloud_, _False Life_, Alarm, Detect Magic
> 
> I'm not a big fan of Silent Image due to the Concentration requirement and you can cover some things with Minor Illusion.I'm also a big fan of Charm Person to avoid unnecessary combats and also at some social situation.I know False Life is considered subpar, but at least in my tables THP is always good. I would select False Life earlier than Grease (or other good control spell) because you don't have too many consistent uses for your slots before getting Wizard multiclass -- usually the best choice will be to position/move/hide and attack with advantage to benefit from SA. Once you get things like Shield and Absorb Elements, you will always try to save some 1st level slots, but before that I believe False Life provides good value early on.I would also get Mage Armor -- AC is very hard to increase in 5e and sometimes you can see yourself without armor or get cought in surprise (although you can sleep without worries in Studded).From level 7 ownards, you pretty much nailed it: Mirror Image, Shadow Blade and etc. Since your Concentration will be usually dedicated to Shadow Blade, I rather get non-Concentration spells in order to avoid conflict and create good synergies.


Oh man, how did I not include Mage Armor? You're _totally_ right, that's a whopping extra 2 AC! We'll be sitting at a pretty 21 AC with Bladesong, reaching 26 with Shield. That is no joke. I'll definitely include this in the build.
Regarding Silent Image, I chose it for its out-of-combat utility, so the Concentration requirement isn't a big deal to me.
Charm Person might be worth including earlier for sure. However, I wouldn't consider False Life personally, because like you said, it's pretty sub-par, especially compared to Grease which I think is one of the best 1st level spells in the game.

Thanks for your suggestions, always interesting to see other variations.




> It does has some worthwhile additions. I've been trying to also make a magic rogue, a nightblade of sorts, but I've always felt that the AT by itself lacks something, so that's why I found your build so interesting.


Thank you. As I said, I made this build because I found AT by itself lacking. Happy I can make it interesting for more people.

----------


## Ir0ns0ul

> Oh man, how did I not include Mage Armor? You're _totally_ right, that's a whopping extra 2 AC! We'll be sitting at a pretty 21 AC with Bladesong, reaching 26 with Shield. That is no joke. I'll definitely include this in the build.
> Regarding Silent Image, I chose it for its out-of-combat utility, so the Concentration requirement isn't a big deal to me.
> Charm Person might be worth including earlier for sure. However, I wouldn't consider False Life personally, because like you said, it's pretty sub-par, especially compared to Grease which I think is one of the best 1st level spells in the game.
> 
> Thanks for your suggestions, always interesting to see other variations.


My pleasure! Good to see that I contributed somehow. Mage Armor + Shield + Bladesong is truly game-changer. If you consider Shadow Blade as well, you dont need to rely on equipments, armors and weapons at all - who says Monks are the only ones who can walk around naked and still be effective, right?

I had exactly the same idea of improving AT capabilities by multiclassing into Wizard. I was planning to run a vHuman (and now Ill totally consider Mobile as my starter feat) and go War Wizard instead of Bladesinger in order to improve my saving throws big time. AC wouldnt be stellar like on a Bladesinger, but you can leverage Mirror Image to fill this gap.

One common major weakness of Rogues is saving throws and War Wizard addresses this pretty well.

----------


## Stattick

Another great thing about AT/Wiz multiclass, is that the Wizard lets you use an arcane focus and ritual cast. You also get a spellbook, so you can add additional spells beyond what you just KNOW. Keep your two spell lists separate, unless your GM doesn't care - Acane Trickster spells are spells you just know, and never need memorize, while Wizard spells must be memorized.

----------


## CMCC

> Another great thing about AT/Wiz multiclass, is that the Wizard lets you use an arcane focus and ritual cast. You also get a spellbook, so you can add additional spells beyond what you just KNOW. Keep your two spell lists separate, unless your GM doesn't care - Acane Trickster spells are spells you just know, and never need memorize, while Wizard spells must be memorized.


Dndbeyond identifies them for you, which is a nice feature that makes it easy to separate class spells.

----------


## Petrocorus

> Introducing, the *Arcane Blade*.
> Race: High Elf
> Classes: Arcane Trickster 9/Bladesinger 11
> Stats (Point Buy): 8 STR / 17 DEX / 14 CON / 16 INT / 10 WIS / 8 CHA
> ASIs: Elven Accuracy, Mobile, +2 DEX, X


You rely quite a lot on concentration spells, notably Shadow Blade. You could use one of the feat improving concentration.

Concerning Mage Armor, it's only a +1 to AC compared to light armor. Not sure it is worth the spell slot.

----------


## Willowhelm

> My pleasure! Good to see that I contributed somehow. Mage Armor + Shield + Bladesong is truly game-changer. If you consider Shadow Blade as well, you dont need to rely on equipments, armors and weapons at all - who says Monks are the only ones who can walk around naked and still be effective, right?


I've been looking for walk-around-naked-and-still-be-effective builds so i'm curious where your spellbook and your spell components or arcane focus are in this scenario?

EDIT: Forgot to say - I really love the build.

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## Ir0ns0ul

> I've been looking for walk-around-naked-and-still-be-effective builds so i'm curious where your spellbook and your spell components or arcane focus are in this scenario?


Thats a very tricky question. However, you dont actually need your spellbook to cast spells once they are already memorized for the day, the absence of your spellbook only prevents you to change your spells selection after a long rest.

For spell components or arcane focus, indeed, I dont think you can easily get rid of this. But spells that dont require Material component can still be used, so I guess its more a matter of careful planning and choice. EDIT: Shadow Blade is only S, V. Mage Armor, however, requires a Material... too bad.

----------


## bendking

> My pleasure! Good to see that I contributed somehow. Mage Armor + Shield + Bladesong is truly game-changer. If you consider Shadow Blade as well, you dont need to rely on equipments, armors and weapons at all - who says Monks are the only ones who can walk around naked and still be effective, right?
> 
> I had exactly the same idea of improving AT capabilities by multiclassing into Wizard. I was planning to run a vHuman (and now Ill totally consider Mobile as my starter feat) and go War Wizard instead of Bladesinger in order to improve my saving throws big time. AC wouldnt be stellar like on a Bladesinger, but you can leverage Mirror Image to fill this gap.
> 
> One common major weakness of Rogues is saving throws and War Wizard addresses this pretty well.


Since you don't need Elven Accuracy I would also consider either Warcaster or Sentinel for your build.
Warcaster makes you tankier by threatening enemies with Booming Blade OA and Sentinel has amazing synergy with Mirror Image allowing you to trigger Sneak Attacks by enemies attacking your mirror images.




> You rely quite a lot on concentration spells, notably Shadow Blade. You could use one of the feat improving concentration.
> 
> Concerning Mage Armor, it's only a +1 to AC compared to light armor. Not sure it is worth the spell slot.


AC has increasing returns, so I would say an additional +1 AC is definitely worth the spell slot once per day.
Also, thanks for correcting me that it's a +1, and not a +2 over light armor.

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## Klorox

> You rely quite a lot on concentration spells, notably Shadow Blade. You could use one of the feat improving concentration.
> 
> Concerning Mage Armor, it's only a +1 to AC compared to light armor. Not sure it is worth the spell slot.


You can always either swap out spells (AT), or just choose not to memorize them (wizard).

Mage Armor is worth it.

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## bendking

Introducing, the *Holy Avenger*.


_Technically you get wings at level 20..._

This is pretty much your cookie-cutter Sorcadin. I just felt like building this one since no one here has yet, and I wanted to share my take on what would be the most optimal Sorcadin build.
As always, feedback is very much welcome, since the purpose of these builds is to optimize a concept as much as possible.

Race: Variant Human
Classes: Paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 6/Sorcerer (Divine Soul) 14
Stats (Point Buy): 16 STR, 8 DEX, 16 CON, 8 INT, 8 WIS, 16 CHA
ASIs: Resilient (CON), Warcaster, +2 CHA, +2 CHA, X
Weapon: Longsword & Shield
Fighting Style: Dueling

*Level Progression*
Contingent on whether you can get your hands on a Strength boosting item, you should progress one of two ways.
Paladin 6 --> Sorcerer 14 (if you have one) or Paladin 6 --> Sorcerer 8 --> Hexblade 1 --> Sorcerer 13

*Metamagic*
As any good Sorcerer optimizer knows, our spell selection should be highly affected by our Metamagic choice.
Here, I suggest you take _Quicken_, which in my eyes is mandatory on a Sorcadin (and is something every gish waters his mouth at), and while the second spot is flexible, I favor _Twinned_, since this makes you _the best buffer in the game_, and is a role that only a Sorcerer can excel at. Combined with your great saves and Warcaster, buffing in combat becomes incredibly powerful _and_ reliable.

*Spell Selection*
(X = pick according to taste)
[ ] = Oath Spells

Cantrips
Level 7 - Booming Blade, Firebolt, Chill Touch, X

Spells
 2 - PAL: Bless, Shield of Faith Protection from Evil and Good, Wrathful Smite, [Bane, Hunter's Mark]
 5 - PAL: Bless, Shield of Faith, Protection from Evil and Good | Warding Bond, Aid, [Hold Person, Misty Step]
 7 - SOR: Shield, Absorb Elements
 8 - SOR: Shield, Absorb Elements, X
 9 - SOR: Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Mirror Image
10 - SOR: Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Mirror Image, X
11 - SOR: Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Mirror Image | Spirit Guardians, Fireball
12 - SOR: Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Mirror Image | Spirit Guardians, Fireball, Haste
13 - SOR: Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Mirror Image | Spirit Guardians, Fireball | Greater Invisibility, X
14 - SOR: Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Mirror Image | Spirit Guardians, Fireball | Greater Invisibility, X | Hold Monster
15 - SOR: Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Mirror Image | Spirit Guardians, Fireball | Greater Invisibility, X | Hold Monster, Holy Weapon

From here on, pick according to preference.

Note:
If the following spells aren't already covered by your party members, you need to take them: Healing Word, Counterspell, Revivify.

*Combat Tips*
Let's go over Metamagic combos. Since you have a lot of high-level slots with no appropriately leveled spells, that means you have a lot of Sorcery Point fuel.
Quicken is amazing with a lot of spells depending on the situation, but a special mention goes out to Mirror Image which we wouldn't have picked were it not for Quicken making it a highly efficient tanking spell. Hold Person and Hold Monster are also incredibly powerful with Quicken since you can cast them and then immediately smite for insane crits.
Twinned is mainly there for Greater Invisibility. The usual issue with Twinning Greater Invisibility is that you need to be either adjacent to two melee-focused allies or "waste" one of the casts on yourself. Here, casting it on yourself is far from a waste. This is an incredible buff for any melee combatant, but doubly so for tanks and damage dealers.  We only use Haste for one level since it's a dangerous prospect on the front-lines, even though you have a great CON save and Warcaster I prefer not to take the risk. Choosing between casting Haste/Greater Invisibility and Spirit Guardians depends on whether you want to use your Sorcery Points on Twinning the buff or not. That said, Twinned also works well with Protection from Good and Evil and Shield of Faith.

*Summary*
The Sorcadin, in my eyes, is the archetypal gish. It is also the strongest gish. I don't think I need to explain why.
This build works well at all levels, and should probably only be brought to a high-op table.

*Variants*
1. You can take Subtle spell instead of Twinned if you like that sort of thing.

EDIT #1 - Change default build to Variant Human since Elven Accuracy doesn't affect STR attacks.

----------


## Klorox

> Introducing, the *Holy Avenger*.
> 
> 
> _Technically you get wings at level 20..._
> 
> This is pretty much your cookie-cutter Sorcadin. I just felt like building this one since no one here has yet, and I wanted to share my take on what would be the most optimal Sorcadin build.
> As always, feedback is very much welcome, since the purpose of these builds is to optimize a concept as much as possible.
> 
> Race: Half-Elf
> ...


I'd hate to see this excellent thread fall into a debate on the best Paladin/Sorcerer builds (or similar).  This is a great build though, and I think it's important to note that multiclassing bard works as well, and I'm glad you put that option to throw in a hexblade level, as that helps a lot of people out.

I've seen some people pimp a Pal 2/Hexblade 1/Swords bard 17 idea, and that's a fantastic one as well (9th level spells, two fighting styles, SAD).

I'm not posting that to start a debate, I'm merely illustrating that there are many different ways to detail this very powerful combo.

----------


## Petrocorus

> Stats (Point Buy): 16 STR, 8 DEX, 16 CON, 8 INT, 8 WIS, 17 CHA
> ASIs: Warcaster, Elven Accuracy (CHA), +2 CHA, Resilient (CON)


Odd ability scores are of the devil.
If you start with 16 Con, you end up with 17 Con after Res (Con). And you have to dump your Wis for it.
Maybe it's better to start with 15 Con and to take Res earlier?

Do you really use Elven Accuracy that much on this build?

----------


## CMCC

Finally! Thank you - this thread needs to fill out some of those better known MC builds (sorcadin, hexadin, sorlock, fighter/wizard, hex bard etc)

That said, I didnt see you mention anything about the Paladin subclass (although its clear you take vengeance). I think thats important here - especially for a 6/14 sorcadin split. 

Because of that cutoff you almost certainly dont want to take Conquest. Vengeance seems like the best choice here with its channel divinity and spell options.

----------


## CMCC

> Odd ability scores are of the devil.
> If you start with 16 Con, you end up with 17 Con after Res (Con). And you have to dump your Wis for it.
> Maybe it's better to start with 15 Con and to take Res earlier?
> 
> Do you really use Elven Accuracy that much on this build?


It turns on after level 15, so Id take it right before that level.

----------


## bendking

> I'd hate to see this excellent thread fall into a debate on the best Paladin/Sorcerer builds (or similar).  This is a great build though, and I think it's important to note that multiclassing bard works as well, and I'm glad you put that option to throw in a hexblade level, as that helps a lot of people out.
> 
> I've seen some people pimp a Pal 2/Hexblade 1/Swords bard 17 idea, and that's a fantastic one as well (9th level spells, two fighting styles, SAD).
> 
> I'm not posting that to start a debate, I'm merely illustrating that there are many different ways to detail this very powerful combo.


That's a great build as well, and one I might write out actually, but it's not really a Sorcadin.




> Odd ability scores are of the devil.
> If you start with 16 Con, you end up with 17 Con after Res (Con). And you have to dump your Wis for it.
> Maybe it's better to start with 15 Con and to take Res earlier?
> 
> Do you really use Elven Accuracy that much on this build?


First off, the ability spread I wrote was for Half-Elf, not Variant Human. If you use V.Human you will, of course, put CHA at 16.
Secondly, I forgot to mention we take the Oath of Vengeance, so we get good value out of Elven Accuracy. If you want a different oath, V.Human becomes slightly more appealing.
The V.Human variant of this build is just as viable, just a matter of preference, really. You could choose depending on which levels you play at. If you know you won't be playing long after level 10, you're better off taking the V.Human variant, and if you know it's going to be a late-game focused campaign, you're probably better off with Half-Elf and Elven Accuracy.




> Finally! Thank you - this thread needs to fill out some of those better known MC builds (sorcadin, hexadin, sorlock, fighter/wizard, hex bard etc)
> 
> That said, I didnt see you mention anything about the Paladin subclass (although its clear you take vengeance). I think thats important here - especially for a 6/14 sorcadin split. 
> 
> Because of that cutoff you almost certainly dont want to take Conquest. Vengeance seems like the best choice here with its channel divinity and spell options.


You're completely correct, I forgot to mention the sublcass and it's definitely important, especially considering I take Elven Accuracy, which I would not have were I to choose a different oath.

----------


## Gignere

> Introducing, the *Holy Avenger*.
> 
> 
> _Technically you get wings at level 20..._
> 
> This is pretty much your cookie-cutter Sorcadin. I just felt like building this one since no one here has yet, and I wanted to share my take on what would be the most optimal Sorcadin build.
> As always, feedback is very much welcome, since the purpose of these builds is to optimize a concept as much as possible.
> 
> Race: Half-Elf
> ...


The halfelf build doesnt work strength doesnt play well with Elven Accuracy you need to reconsider the character optimizing. You either need to be a dexadin or the hexblade dip is mandatory and comes early.

Unless you are suggesting to attack with -1 with a dagger whenever you have advantage.

----------


## Petrocorus

> First off, the ability spread I wrote was for Half-Elf, not Variant Human. If you use V.Human you will, of course, put CHA at 16.
> Secondly, I forgot to mention we take the Oath of Vengeance, so we get good value out of Elven Accuracy. If you want a different oath, V.Human becomes slightly more appealing.
> The V.Human variant of this build is just as viable, just a matter of preference, really. You could choose depending on which levels you play at. If you know you won't be playing long after level 10, you're better off taking the V.Human variant, and if you know it's going to be a late-game focused campaign, you're probably better off with Half-Elf and Elven Accuracy.


Not my point.
As and half-elf, you have 4 ASI on you build. The ones you selected gives you +1 Con and +3 Cha. So you have to start with odd numbers in both those abilities, else you're wasting buy points.

Whatever is your race, if you start with an even Con and take Res (Con) you'll end up with an odd Con. That 2 points of point buy that will end up being useless and which could have been put elsewhere.




> You're completely correct, I forgot to mention the sublcass and it's definitely important, especially considering I take Elven Accuracy, which I would not have were I to choose a different oath.


And i still don't see what Elven Accuracy is going to do on a Strength build.
Unless you take Hexblade 1, Elven Accuracy is only going to be useful on your attack spells, that means your cantrips (but not BB) + Spiritual Weapon.

----------


## CMCC

> I'd hate to see this excellent thread fall into a debate on the best Paladin/Sorcerer builds (or similar).  This is a great build though, and I think it's important to note that multiclassing bard works as well, and I'm glad you put that option to throw in a hexblade level, as that helps a lot of people out.
> 
> I've seen some people pimp a Pal 2/Hexblade 1/Swords bard 17 idea, and that's a fantastic one as well (9th level spells, two fighting styles, SAD).
> 
> I'm not posting that to start a debate, I'm merely illustrating that there are many different ways to detail this very powerful combo.


What does swords bard have over divine soul here? 

Magical secrets, maneuvers, extra attack. But give up metamagic, the cleric spell list, some real solid sorcerer spells.

Which is better?

----------


## CMCC

> Not my point.
> As and half-elf, you have 4 ASI on you build. The ones you selected gives you +1 Con and +3 Cha. So you have to start with odd numbers in both those abilities, else you're wasting buy points.
> 
> Whatever is your race, if you start with an even Con and take Res (Con) you'll end up with an odd Con. That 2 points of point buy that will end up being useless and which could have been put elsewhere.
> 
> 
> And i still don't see what Elven Accuracy is going to do on a Strength build.
> Unless you take Hexblade 1, Elven Accuracy is only going to be useful on your attack spells, that means your cantrips (but not BB) + Spiritual Weapon.


To be fair, he does take hex 1 in the build (assuming no strength magic items). But yeah, its a wasted pick on the non-hex build.

----------


## Hairfish

> Finally! Thank you - this thread needs to fill out some of those better known MC builds (sorcadin, hexadin, sorlock, fighter/wizard, hex bard etc)


Ugh, no. You can throw a brick and hit half a dozen threads about sorc/hexadin builds. Unless they add something that actually makes them interesting, why bother?

----------


## bendking

> The halfelf build doesnt work strength doesnt play well with Elven Accuracy you need to reconsider the character optimizing. You either need to be a dexadin or the hexblade dip is mandatory and comes early.
> 
> Unless you are suggesting to attack with -1 with a dagger whenever you have advantage.





> Not my point.
> As and half-elf, you have 4 ASI on you build. The ones you selected gives you +1 Con and +3 Cha. So you have to start with odd numbers in both those abilities, else you're wasting buy points.
> 
> Whatever is your race, if you start with an even Con and take Res (Con) you'll end up with an odd Con. That 2 points of point buy that will end up being useless and which could have been put elsewhere.
> 
> 
> And i still don't see what Elven Accuracy is going to do on a Strength build.
> Unless you take Hexblade 1, Elven Accuracy is only going to be useful on your attack spells, that means your cantrips (but not BB) + Spiritual Weapon.


I totally forgot about that little quirk of Elven Accuracy. That does make the Variant Human build more appealing unless going for a DEX build.
The CON being odd at level 18 is kind of a waste, but not that big of a waste since you still would have enjoyed that additional CON for a huge part of your career. I mean, how many people actually get to level 18?
Anyway, I'll change the build to Variant Human. Thanks, guys.

----------


## CMCC

> Ugh, no. You can throw a brick and hit half a dozen threads about sorc/hexadin builds. Unless they add something that actually makes them interesting, why bother?


You nailed the problem in your post. 

This allows for a single thread of fun/effective builds. The best ones float to the top. 

In case the problem is not clear: some people may not want to search through 10-20 threads with 40 different build variations. Having a really solid one featured is something I (and perhaps others) would appreciate.

----------


## Skylivedk

> You nailed the problem in your post. 
> 
> This allows for a single thread of fun/effective builds. The best ones float to the top. 
> 
> In case the problem is not clear: some people may not want to search through 10-20 threads with 40 different build variations. Having a really solid one featured is something I (and perhaps others) would appreciate.


There's a separate thread just for the Paladorc. It's called bladeworks unlimited IIRC. I do believe no variation has been posted here since people don't find that combo fun and/or eclectic.

----------


## Quietus

I agree that the commonly known builds, while appreciated, do not have a place in this thread.  This thread is for eclectic and novel builds.  Not ones that have at least one thread dedicated to them on the front page at all times.

----------


## CMCC

> There's a separate thread just for the Paladorc. It's called bladeworks unlimited IIRC. I do believe no variation has been posted here since people don't find that combo fun and/or eclectic.


Thats a guide not a specific build. But fair enough 

No sorcadin, folks.

----------


## LudicSavant

Eclectic just means 'deriving ideas, style, or taste from a broad and diverse range of sources.'   That doesn't necessarily mean every build has to be something you've never seen before.  Sorcadins are fun, effective, and fine by me.  I would like to maintain the atmosphere of being supportive and constructive and inclusive and encouraging for people's build efforts.  I think we can enjoy both the novel and the tried and true here.   :Small Smile: 

Folks have been asking about magical archers, and I've just spent a long term, 4-tier campaign with a very useful Hexbow in my party, so I'll probably be posting something along those lines next.  I've also been fiddling with a Valor Swords Lore Bard frontliner post.

----------


## cmakara

> Folks have been asking about magical archers, and I've just spent a long term, 4-tier campaign with a very useful Hexbow in my party, so I'll probably be posting something along those lines next.  I've also been fiddling with a Valor Swords Lore Bard frontliner post.


Hi LudicSavant,
Thanks for all builds in this thread, they are very inspiring. 
I am also trying to come up with a frontliner and bard is a very strong candidate in the mix. 
I am very interested in your take on it.

----------


## broodax

> Eclectic just means 'deriving ideas, style, or taste from a broad and diverse range of sources.'   That doesn't necessarily mean every build has to be something you've never seen before.  Sorcadins are fun, effective, and fine by me.  I would like to maintain the atmosphere of being supportive and constructive and inclusive and encouraging for people's build efforts.  I think we can enjoy both the novel and the tried and true here.  
> 
> Folks have been asking about magical archers, and I've just spent a long term, 4-tier campaign with a very useful Hexbow in my party, so I'll probably be posting something along those lines next.  I've also been fiddling with a Valor Swords Lore Bard frontliner post.


I would love to see an archer (though the hexbow has been done a lot) too. Treantmonk has an EK 20 archer that looks very powerful, and a hex-archer. I am more interested in how one might best make a  more well-rounded or "ranger"-ish archer that isn't just a caster because casters automatically make someone well rounded.

I just made a thread about the one I'm looking to play next month, which I think will be:

1 - Ranger 1
2 - Ranger 2
3 - Ranger 3 Gloomstalker
4 - Ranger 4
5 - Ranger 5 Extra attack is just too good to pass up.
6 - Rogue 1 We lose a skill by taking rogue second, but gain strength saves vs. Int and got an ASI, Extra Attack, and all the ranger goodies a level earlier.
7 - Rogue 2
8 - Rogue 3 Scout
... and then I can't decide how to proceed.

----------


## CMCC

> I love this thread, and I tend to be a little short on original ideas when it comes to game mechanics. This is why, when I post an 'original' build, it ends up being two of Ludic's builds crammed together in a blender.
> 
> *Nature is Magical*
> _Arcana Cleric 6 / Land (Coast) Druid 14_
> 
> *Race:* V. Human (Feat: Warcaster)
> *Stats:* 14 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Wis, Everything else to taste (I went 10 Str, 14 Dex, 15 Con, 10 Int, 16 Wis, 8 Cha).
> 
> *Cantrips:* Booming Blade, Create Bonfire, Fire Bolt, Guidance, Light, Shape Water, Shillelagh, Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Word of Radiance
> ...


Curious why youre cutting off Arcana two levels before potent spellcasting?

----------


## CMCC

> I would love to see an archer (though the hexbow has been done a lot) too. Treantmonk has an EK 20 archer that looks very powerful, and a hex-archer. I am more interested in how one might best make a  more well-rounded or "ranger"-ish archer that isn't just a caster because casters automatically make someone well rounded.
> 
> I just made a thread about the one I'm looking to play next month, which I think will be:
> 
> 1 - Ranger 1
> 2 - Ranger 2
> 3 - Ranger 3 Gloomstalker
> 4 - Ranger 4
> 5 - Ranger 5 Extra attack is just too good to pass up.
> ...


Careful with treantmonks ek archer - he messes up the spell selection on that one. 

He also has a gloomstalker/ cleric build that looks fun. Maybe theres room for forge cleric in your build. Wed prob need to know more.

----------


## Tekrow

Are there good melee necromancer builds? Something like a Death Knight?

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Are there good melee necromancer builds? Something like a Death Knight?


I think that would be Paladin, Oathbreaker with either Shadow or Divine Soul Sorcerer but fluffed to be demonic or something? so basically a paladin/sorcerer build but with different spell and subclass selections.

----------


## bendking

Introducing, the *Divine Protector*.


_You try finding a heavily armored, quarterstaff & shield-wielding Sorcerer..._

This build is a Divine Soul with a twist. Due to our Life Cleric dip, we get Heavy Armor proficiency along with Disciple of Life which boosts our healing abilities significantly. Basically, we're a Divine Soul who can also tank and heal effectively.
The aim here is to provide some of the value of a Life Cleric combined with the typical Sorcerer goodies. Notably, at late-game, this multi-class lets us pull off the insane Disciple-of-Life-Twinned-Regenerate, making two of our allies near immortal.

Race: Variant Human
Classes: Life Cleric 1/Divine Soul Sorcerer 19
Stats (Point Buy): 16 STR, 8 DEX, 12 CON, 8 INT, 13 WIS, 16 CHA
ASIs: Warcaster, +2 CHA, +2 CHA, Inspiring Leader, Resilient (WIS)
Weapon: Quarterstaff & Shield

*Stats*
This is a rough one. Since we need to have 13 in both CHA and WIS, and 15 in STR to wear heavy armor, and want a high CON, we are pretty damn MAD.
If you can get an STR boosting item early, this will definitely help the build by letting you dump STR and bump CON to 16. In the variants section, I discuss the option of starting with 14 CON while delaying CHA progression.
As with all MAD builds, this one would benefit greatly from increased Point Buy or well-rolled stats.

*Feats*
Warcaster ticks a lot of boxes for us. It lets us wield a sword & shield and still be able to cast spells, it unlocks the Booming Blade OA and boosts our concentration saves.
Inspiring Leader is undoubtedly nice, but since we do have some offensive spells in our belt, I prefer raising our CHA first.

*Level Progression*
Sorcerer 1 --> Cleric 1 --> Sorcerer 19
You could also take Cleric 1 after Sorcerer 5, but I like having the build come online sooner rather than later.

*Metamagic*
Twinned, Subtle, [Quicken (at 11th level)]
Of course, Metamagic shapes our spell list significantly. For this build, we're going to take Twinned for many things and Subtle because it's just great for both social and sticky situations.
Let's start with Subtle because it's shorter to explain. Subtle will come in handy both in social situations when you need to get away with casting spells. Subtle Suggestion is highly effective. It's also useful when you're somehow limited in your movement or speech, letting you cast spells in any situation. You can also cast a Subtle Counterspell, which makes it impossible for enemy casters to Counterspell it in turn. Subtle Telekinesis is also incredible. It's overall a super solid and reliable Metamagic that works with almost any build, so we're taking it. You could replace it with Extend if you really want to lean into the support role, but I honestly think the difference Extend makes barely ever matters.
Now, Twinned. I love this Metamagic because it single-handedly makes you the best buffer in the game, and with Divine Soul and Life Cleric granting you access to some great spells to use it with, we're squeezing a lot of value out of this one feat.
For starters, you can Twin Sanctuary, Protection from Evil and Good, Cure Wounds, and Healing Word, all to great effect. Twinned Healing Word is basically our poor man's Mass Healing Word. I mean, you probably won't need to up more than two downed enemies per turn anyway.
Next up, Twinned Polymorph is _no joke_. It's a powerhouse of a spell and a highly flexible one at that, which Sorcerers appreciate. It also works as a huge heal in a pinch. If your party absolutely really isn't down to playing T-Rexes ever, you should switch this with Great Invisibility. Twinned Death Ward is another great option for keeping your party alive.
Finally, the crème de la crème, Twinned Regenerate is almost broken with this build. For 1 hour, with no concentration, you get to give _two_ allies, a staggering 10 HP per turn.
Quicken Spell is great later on for spells like Telekinesis and Sunbeam, and will occasionally be useful when you _really_ need to dash/disengage while also casting.

*Spell Selection*
(X = pick according to taste)
[ ] = Domain Spells

Cantrips
Level 1 - Booming Blade, Chill Touch, X, X
Level 2 - Guidance, Toll the Dead, Light

Spells
I highly advise adjusting this tight list according to which spells your party has covered.  For example, this list assumes that there is already a Cleric in the party that covers things like Revivify, which you would (unfortunately) have to take if this weren't the case. I listed the spells in order of importance so you would know which ones to switch out first, so in the case of Revivify, you would replace Fireball with it.

_Cleric Spells_
2 - Sanctuary / Protection from Evil and Good, Healing Word, [Bless, Cure Wounds]
Prepare PfEaG if you know you're going to be fighting planar beings, otherwise take Sanctuary.

_Sorcerer Spells_
1 - Shield, Sleep
3 - Shield, Absorb Elements, Sleep
4 - Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Web
5 - Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Web, Suggestion
6 - Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Suggestion | Spirit Guardians, Counterspell
7 - Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Suggestion | Spirit Guardians, Counterspell, Fireball
8 - Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Suggestion | Spirit Guardians, Counterspell, Fireball | Polymorph
9 - Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Suggestion | Spirit Guardians, Counterspell, Fireball | Polymorph, Death Ward
10- Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Suggestion | Spirit Guardians, Counterspell, Fireball | Polymorph, Death Ward | Mass Cure Wounds
11- Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Suggestion | Spirit Guardians, Counterspell, Fireball | Polymorph, Death Ward | Mass Cure Wounds, Telekinesis
12- Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Suggestion | Spirit Guardians, Counterspell, Fireball | Polymorph, Death Ward | Mass Cure Wounds, Telekinesis | Sunbeam
13- Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Suggestion | Spirit Guardians, Counterspell, Fireball | Polymorph, Death Ward | Mass Cure Wounds, Telekinesis | Sunbeam
14- Shield, Absorb Elements | Spiritual Weapon, Suggestion | Spirit Guardians, Counterspell, Fireball | Polymorph, Death Ward | Mass Cure Wounds, Telekinesis | Sunbeam | Regenerate

From here on pick according to preference.

*Combat Tips*
This build has a lot of options in combat, and I've gone through a few of them in the Metamagic section. Your roles in combat, ordered by priority, are: _Buff, Heal, Tank, Blast_.
Your _buffing_ capability is top-tier due to Twinned Spell. Your _healing_ is also top-tier due to Disciple of Life and Empowered Healing, which make in-combat healing an effective action.
You're a decent _tank_ due to your high AC. You're sitting at 20 with full-plate armor and shield, and you get to 25 with Shield. We're also sporting the iconic Booming Blade OA thanks to Warcaster. Be wary, however, because your HP isn't as high as we'd like it to be.
Finally, I believe any class with access to Fireball should take it. This, along with Sunbeam makes you a part-time _blaster_ when in need.

*Variants*
1. You could take Protector Aasimar instead of V.Human, which would mean starting with 15 STR and 14 CON, but having to take Warcaster at 4th, thus delaying your CHA progression. Frankly, that isn't as bad as it sounds. You aren't as reliant on your CHA modifier as other, more offensive Sorcerers, and you don't actually attack a lot besides your Booming Blade OA. Protector Aasimar is also quite thematic.
2. You may choose to take Extended Spell instead of Subtle Spell, which I personally think is the less optimal choice, but has some application in extending left-over 8-hour buffs (Aid, Death Ward) at the end of the day over to the next day.
That said, don't expect to get much value out of it on spells with less than an 8-hour duration. It's mostly this application that is attractive about this option.

----------


## Citadel97501

I love everything with this build, and I hadn't thought of mixing a heavy armor cleric with a Sorcerer, great idea. 


> Introducing, the *Divine Protector*.
> 
> *Spoiler: Build*
> Show
> 
> 
> _You try finding a heavily armored, sword & shield-wielding Sorcerer..._
> 
> This build is a Divine Soul with a twist. Due to our Life Cleric dip, we get Heavy Armor proficiency along with Disciple of Life which boosts our healing abilities significantly. Basically, we're a Divine Soul who can also tank and heal effectively.
> ...

----------


## Gignere

> Introducing, the *Divine Protector*.
> 
> 
> _You try finding a heavily armored, sword & shield-wielding Sorcerer..._
> 
> This build is a Divine Soul with a twist. Due to our Life Cleric dip, we get Heavy Armor proficiency along with Disciple of Life which boosts our healing abilities significantly. Basically, we're a Divine Soul who can also tank and heal effectively.
> The aim here is to provide some of the value of a Life Cleric combined with the typical Sorcerer goodies. Notably, at late-game, this multi-class lets us pull off the insane Disciple-of-Life-Twinned-Regenerate, making two of our allies near immortal.
> 
> Race: Variant Human
> ...


How can you use Longsword? Sorcerer, cleric and human doesnt provide proficiency.

Additional suggestions, Extend spell is actually quite good on a cleric spell list. With it if you have any left over slots you can use it to cast extended Aid, Deathward, other 8 hour buffs, and basically start the next day with full slots whilst benefiting from said buffs. Extended Aid is particularly ridiculous since you can upcast it for very nice hps buff for three party members.

----------


## bendking

> I love everything with this build, and I hadn't thought of mixing a heavy armor cleric with a Sorcerer, great idea.


Thank you :)




> How can you use Longsword? Sorcerer, cleric and human doesnt provide proficiency.


Good catch. I'll change it to Quarterstaff.

----------


## MeeposFire

> Thank you :)
> 
> 
> 
> Good catch. I'll change it to Quarterstaff.


An additional idea if you feel like you have the room to use a feat slot instead of making str so high you could take mobile as a feat.  It increases your speed by 10 feet which is the same amount you lose by wearing heavy armor with low strength.  So you could use mobile to remove the problem of wanting higher str and use those points to get higher con or something.

----------


## bendking

> Additional suggestions, Extend spell is actually quite good on a cleric spell list. With it if you have any left over slots you can use it to cast extended Aid, Deathward, other 8 hour buffs, and basically start the next day with full slots whilst benefiting from said buffs. Extended Aid is particularly ridiculous since you can upcast it for very nice hps buff for three party members.


I'm guessing that you agree that there are only a select few instances in which a duration of 16 hours would have been enough whereas 8 hours wouldn't have (or any other duration, for that matter).
Realistically, then, you would mostly use Extend at the end of the day to start the next day still benefiting from those buffs. That's a fine enough use, but I don't think its benefits outweigh the benefits of Subtle Magic.
I'll still mention it in the thread though for anyone wanting to try it out.




> An additional idea if you feel like you have the room to use a feat slot instead of making str so high you could take mobile as a feat.  It increases your speed by 10 feet which is the same amount you lose by wearing heavy armor with low strength.  So you could use mobile to remove the problem of wanting higher str and use those points to get higher con or something.


I didn't think of that actually, that's a cool idea.
However, it's not like we hate having high STR. We want to have a decent attack so our Booming Blade OA is an actual threat.
Plus, paying an ASI is a pretty expensive price for just 10ft. of movement. I think I would prefer to just suck up the slow movement (Halflings make do with 25ft., after all).

----------


## CMCC

> Posted this in another thread.  Essentially an elusive glass iron cannon who dishes out buckets of damage while simultaneously doing quite a lot to protect teammates from harm and lock down foes.
> 
> *Build 11: The Ancestral Avenger*
> - The reality of Echo Barbarian builds is that they require Strength (for Reckless Attack), Dexterity (since you can't rage in heavy armor), and Constitution (for Echo Knight features), which limits our ability to meet multiclassing requirements without seriously impacting the build... unless of course you roll high for stats.  In that case, you can improve this build further via multiclassing -- for example, Hexblade 1 (requires Cha 13) and Gloomstalker 3 (requires Wis 13) are both very powerful and synergistic additions which further add to the voodoo flavor.  The only reason I don't take them is because of the pesky multiclassing requirements.


Lets say you meet all the MC requirements, and still have a solid strength/ con - are you taking BOTH hex and gloom? The statement above isnt entirely clear to me. The hexblade AND gloomstalker is throwing me. Is it supposed to be or? 

Whats that build look like progression-wise?

----------


## Zephyr374

> I've been tinkering with a Scout/Fey Wanderer build:
> 
> *The Feywarden*
> Note: this build involves getting lots of different instances of skill proficiency from multiples sources. If starting at level 1, check with your DM what happens if a sub-class gives you proficiency with one your background skills.
> 
> 
> 
> *Strengths & Weaknesses*
> + flexible fighting style, can use archery, sword & board, or dual wield depending on situation
> ...


I Really like the look and idea behind the build, but im curious about the remaining level break down, are you more ranger heavy for rogue heavy??? Also i understand that the scout gains a couple of proficiency with skills, but if you plan on dual wielding would the swashbuckler not be a more valid option? The Fey Wanderers Dreadful strikes say that a creature can only take the extra damage once, so if you are duel wielding you do not get the extra damage on the off hand. By going swashbuckler, after your first attack, you can move away without getting an OA and then hit a second creature adding the 1d6 psychic onto that attack as well. Thus assuming you hit on both, youre getting 2d6+dex on both creatures, plus sneak attack on one of those attacks

----------


## Necrosnoop110

Sorry if this has been answered already but this is a huge thread. In the first post, a build is described that has access to a Pegasus and states that it gets a move of 540 feet a round. Can someone help me understand how that is possible I just can't see it. Thanks. 

Pegasus Speed = Fly 90' round 

That gives us: Move 90' + Dash 90' + Haste Dash 90' = 270'? what am I missing? 




> Vengeance Paladin 20
> VHuman / Cha 20, Belt of Giant Strength, PAM, Great Weapon Master, Mounted Combatant, Inspiring Leader (Order in which you get the feats is optional, though I'd take PAM first).
> 
> High level strategy:
> You use "Find Greater Steed" to ride a pegasus. At the start of your adventuring day you give a heroic speech about how much divine vengeance will rain down upon your foes today (which gives everyone and their familiar +25 hp / short rest), and cast Death Ward, which affects you and your pegasus. In battle, you cast Haste, which gets shared to it. *Your pegasus now moves around the battlefield at 540 feet per round using the move action, dash action, and hasted bonus action.*

----------


## x3n0n

> Sorry if this has been answered already but this is a huge thread. In the first post, a build is described that has access to a Pegasus and states that it gets a move of 540 feet a round. Can someone help me understand how that is possible I just can't see it. Thanks. 
> 
> Pegasus Fly 90' round 
> Move 90' + Dash 90' + Haste Dash 90' = 270'? what am I missing?


Haste also doubles the target's movement speed. :)

----------


## Necrosnoop110

> Haste also doubles the target's movement speed. :)


D'oh missed that, thanks :)

----------


## Justin Sane

> I Really like the look and idea behind the build, but im curious about the remaining level break down, are you more ranger heavy for rogue heavy???


There's a reason I didn't build this up to level 20 - this is more of a template than an actual build. It pretty much depends on what you value more - the extra spells/abilities from Fey Wanderer, or the damage from Sneak Attack.

That said, I'd personally go for something like Scout 3 - Ranger 5 - Scout 5 - Ranger 8 - Scout 12, but that's going more from a gut feeling than any specific analysis.



> Also i understand that the scout gains a couple of proficiency with skills, but if you plan on dual wielding would the swashbuckler not be a more valid option? The Fey Wanderers Dreadful strikes say that a creature can only take the extra damage once, so if you are duel wielding you do not get the extra damage on the off hand. By going swashbuckler, after your first attack, you can move away without getting an OA and then hit a second creature adding the 1d6 psychic onto that attack as well. Thus assuming you hit on both, youre getting 2d6+dex on both creatures, plus sneak attack on one of those attacks


That could work too, but you could easily accomplish the same with the Mobile feat, while the extra couple of Expertises aren't so easy to replace.

As for the TWF point, don't forget you have Hunter's Mark as well - getting Dreadful Strikes to go off on a second target in the same turn will be a very situational thing, I'd wager.

----------


## Draz74

In my recent new HeroForge 2 obsession, I've decided to model some builds from this thread artistically. (Starting with some of LudicSavant's classics.)

Celestial Generalist
*Spoiler*
Show




Wood Elf Magic Commando
*Spoiler*
Show




Arcana Cleric Frontliner
(Definitely inspired by the sample art that Ludic posted with the build, even more than the others, as almost any aesthetic with medium armor could work for this build.)
*Spoiler*
Show




The Lifeguard
*Spoiler*
Show

----------


## Ir0ns0ul

> In my recent new HeroForge 2 obsession, I've decided to model some builds from this thread artistically. (Starting with some of LudicSavant's classics.


I did the Hobgoblin Iron Wizard for my latest PC!

----------


## ftafp

「Alien Ant Farm 」

_Alien Ant Farm resembles a swarm of metallic army ants. These ants can repurpose nearby metal to self-replicate and assemble their collective bodies into complex mechanical structures that are exceptionally sturdy. In addition to its ability to reshape metal, Alien Ant Farm has also shown the ability to create small forges resembling volcanoes or ant hills, staple wounds closed with their mandibles and operate dead bodies via cables. Because of their swarm-like nature, metal composition, and ability to self-replicate, these ants are nearly impossible to destroy except when they form physical structures_

This build started out purely as an attempt to create an interesting stand-user inspired by the ability of army ants to turn themselves into architecture, but in the process I found that the combination of Forge Cleric with Tasha's new Swarm Ranger was an absolute beast for subjecting an enemy to ongoing AoE, so this is what I came up with. hope you enjoy

*Race:* V. Human
*Class:* Swarm Ranger 5 / Forge Cleric 9
*Stats:* STR (14+1), DEX 12, CON 13, INT 8, WIS (15+1)
*Feats:* Magic Initiate: Druid
*Fighting Style:* Druidic Warrior
*Important Spells:* Shillelagh, Magic Stone, Thorn Whip, Conjure Bonfire
*ASI:* WIS +2, WIS +2, Sentinel

This starts off pretty basic. At level 1 you're going to be a staff-and-board ranger using shillelagh for your attacks. Nothing glamorous here yet, but at level 3 you start seeing where this build goes. On its turn, the Tasha's swarmkeeeper can drag one creature it hit 15 feet horizontally. This does not consume an action or bonus action, it does not need to be a weapon attack, and it does not need to use the attack action, which means you can use it with thorn whip to drag an enemy 25 feet, and only 10 of those feet need to be near you. What this means is that from as early as level 3 you are going to be a phenomenal tank, capable of pulling in enemies and quite literally raking them over the coals. So far, a very fun start

Taking this build to level 5 will get you extra attack, from there you switch to forge cleric and here's where things start getting interesting. At level 6 you get heavy armor proficiency, as well as a free +1 item. Level 7 will let you assemble alien ant farm into metal objects (this is admittedly just a ribbon, but it's still cool), Level 8 gives you spiritual weapon which will give you an extra hands-free attack as your swarm turns itself into weaponry (or a punch-ghost if you prefer), but level 10 will quickly invalidate that when you get spirit guardians and animate dead. Animate Dead might seem like an odd choice, but like tiny servant, undead can be given standing orders to do things like throw magic stones at people. Now with three zombies you have three ranged attacks as a bonus action, which is pretty sweet. Because they're kind of flimsy maybe make them some plate mail and shields, you are a forge cleric after all. 12 is where you get Wall of Fire, which is a fantastically fun AoE to drag enemies through, so do it frequently. 13 gives you sentinel, now enemies can't run, and 14 will give you creation, and here's where things get fun.

See, remember your zombie stone-throwers? At this level, you can upcast Creation as a 6th level spell slot to summon a cannon from the DMG, which is a large object. The cannon requires three actions to fire, but it does 8d10 damage on a hit. Also, it doesn't use up your bonus action anymore as long as you give your zombies the right standing orders. Bear in mind that a cannon has 12 adjacent spaces, so you can fit three teams of zombie cannoneers around it without any of them standing in front of it, so that's nice

Okay, with Creation we've reached the high point of this build. From here on out what you do is up to you. Some more cleric will make you more of a caster while more ranger will give you more swarm powers including flight and disincorporation. I recommend the ranger, as clerics tend to get a little dull at this level, but that's just me.

----------


## Citadel97501

*FTAFP*
I like the idea, but am wondering how your doing the 15' of extra movement?  The way I read it, is that you can only do the bonus movement once per each of your turns and only 5'?  Did you have an earlier write up that added something like Sea Sorcerer or something?

----------


## ftafp

> *FTAFP*
> I like the idea, but am wondering how your doing the 15' of extra movement?  The way I read it, is that you can only do the bonus movement once per each of your turns and only 5'?  Did you have an earlier write up that added something like Sea Sorcerer or something?


According to the scrubbed fantasy grounds leaks of the subclass, you get a choice of one of these once on each of your turns
1d6 bonus piercing damage to one attackyou experience 5 feet of forced movement*a creature you hit with an attack must make a STR save or be moved 15 feet horizontally*

I was referring specifically to the last one, which due to its wording stacks with thorn whip, although the target has to both be hit and fail a save

----------


## Citadel97501

> According to the scrubbed fantasy grounds leaks of the subclass, you get a choice of one of these once on each of your turns
> 1d6 bonus piercing damage to one attackyou experience 5 feet of forced movement*a creature you hit with an attack must make a STR save or be moved 15 feet horizontally*
> 
> I was referring specifically to the last one, which due to its wording stacks with thorn whip, although the target has to both be hit and fail a save


OK that is a massive improvement to the UA Swarm Ranger, thank you and other than that old UA from my end, this seems like a lot of fun.  I wonder if the Tempest Cleric or Armorer Artificer could also pull (pun unintended) with their own movement shenanigans.

----------


## ftafp

Hecatoncheires

_Be advised, his build makes use of Tasha's Customized Origins as well as the leaked Subclasses from Fantasy Grounds._

*Race:* Goliath (Loxodon and Bugbear are also acceptable)
*Class:* Astral Monk 6/Rune Knight 14
*Stats:* STR 12, DEX (14+2), CON 13, INT 10, WIS (15+1), CHA 8
*Fighting Style:* Unarmed Fighting
*ASI:* WIS +2 @4, WIS +2 @10, Tavern Brawler (+1 CON) @12, Magic Initiate (Druid) @14, CON +2 @18, CON [email protected]
*Important Spells:* Shillelagh, Magic Stone
*Skills:* Athletics

As with most builds that don't get subclass features at level 1, we start off slow. At early levels you're a monk, albeit a larger slightly clumsier one, but things start to change when you hit level 3 and start to grow more arms. See, Astral Monk doesn't specify how many arms you can summon, so lets summon a hundred, just for funsies. These arms use your wisdom modifier in place of strength for checks, saves, attacks and damage rolls, and have a reach of 10 feet (or 15 if you're a bugbear), and only cost one ki point to conjure. Keep going and you get extra attacks and stunning strike at level 5. 6 gives you magic unarmed strikes and also the ability to summon faces as well as hands. This is the perfect opportunity to give you 50 heads. At level 7 when you switch to fighter your fists jump up to 1d8 damage, courtesy of Unarmed Fighting. 8 gets you action surge, and then 9 is where things start getting really fun.

A 3rd level Rune Knight gets the ability Giant's Might, which as a bonus action lets you become Large, gain advantage on strength checks and saves, and do a bit of extra damage on one attack. Surprisingly, you might not need to use that damage bonus however, because from here on out against most opponents, your specialty is going to be chucking people in the air. Let me explain. At this level, in this state, your athletics bonus is +9 and you have advantage on strength checks. As a large creature with powerful build, your carrying capacity is 780 pounds. As a naturally 8 foot tall creature having doubled in size and with 5-10 feet of extra reach, you can lift your hands 30 feet in the air, and as per the improvised weapons rules (which Chris Perkins claims are used for throwing creatures in Sage Advice), you can throw them 60 feet in the air. In other words, you can now throw any creature 90 feet into the air, dealing 9d6 damage and knocking them prone on impact. This will take two of your attacks to do admittedly, but the damage is fantastic. You also get two giant runes. Pick your faves.

At level 10 you get Tavern Brawler, which has two important side-effects. One, you are now proficient with improvised weapons, meaning not only can you throw enemies into the air, but you can throw them accurately enough to drop them on people. Per Sage Advice, improvised thrown weapons use DEX, not STR, so it's a good thing your DEX is decent. The other gift of Tavern Brawler is that when you hit a creature with an improvised weapon you can grapple them as a bonus action. With your reach, that means your turn will revolve around grappling a foe, throwing them overhand at another enemy, then grappling the victim with a bonus action, repeating the cycle again on the next turn. 11 is a dead level for you, but 12 gives you another feat. Take Magic Initiate (Druid) for Magic Stone and Shillelagh, as the giants (particularly the Hecatoncheires) were known for using trees as clubs and throwing salvos of mountains. This may seem like an unoptimal choice, but there's actually a reason we're taking this. That's because at the same level we can swap one our runes with Rune of the Fire Giant, which we couldn't use previously because we needed to make an attack with a weapon to use it, and fists aren't weapons. Now you can chain your enemies in the burning shackles of tarterus. Sweet. We can also use magic stone if we absolutely need a ranged attack.

13 gives you the hill giant rune which you can activate for free resistance to B/S/P. 16 increased your height by 3d4 inches and makes your giant form hit harder. 17 gives you three attacks at that point you're as good as it gets.

----------


## Nod_Hero

> Hecatoncheires


This build is ridiculous and I absolutely can not wait to try it!

----------


## x3n0n

> Hecatoncheires
> 
> [...]
> 
> At level 10 you get sentinel, which with your reach and stunning strike is phenomenal. if you're playing a bugbear, the combination of 15 reach and stunning strike means you can shut down enemy attacks completely and waste their turns as a reaction from 15 feet away.


1. Fun build!

2. A nit: both Bugbear and the Astral Self leak say they increase your reach when you make the attack "on your turn", so they don't apply to the opportunity attacks.

----------


## ftafp

> A nit: both Bugbear and the Astral Self leak say they increase your reach when you make the attack "on your turn", so they don't apply to the opportunity attacks.


Good catch. I'll be updating the build to be a bit more useful.

----------


## ftafp

The Magnetic Pauldron (AKA: Tech Support)

_Be advised, his build makes use of Tasha's Customized Origins from Fantasy Grounds._

Traditional tanking is a difficult job. While most tanks have no trouble taking a hit, it's much harder for them to ensure they're taking a hit in their ally's place. Most tanking abilities only give disadvantage to attacks against allies, and almost none of them will do a thing against a well-aimed fireball. The Magnetic Pauldron is designed to work around this weakness, and in the process, serve as an effective support character and blaster

*Race:* Custom Origin "Kobold" (Small, Darkvision, Draconic, Mounted Combatant)
*Class:* Artillerist 5/Order Cleric 1/Artillerist 19
*Stats:* STR 10, DEX 13, CON 14, INT (15+2), WIS 12, CHA 8
*ASI:* INT +1 and WIS +1 @4, INT +2 @9, Resilient (DEX +1) @13, Tough @17, CON +2 @20
*Important Spells:* Acid Splash, Fire Bolt, Scorching Ray, Healing Word

A rare build that kicks in at level 1, the magnetic pauldron lives up to its name first and foremost by literally standing on its allies shoulders and protecting them from harm. Mounted combatant, the key to this build, allows the user to take any attack aimed at their mount, and give their mount evasion while riding them. Your ally will need to be medium or larger for this to work (though IDRotFM implies you can ride another kobold), but this tradeoff will make you an exceptionally potent defender. Fire Bolt and Acid Splash are going to be your primary damage spells from the beginning to the end. The former is often considered superior, but as most dnd battles take place against multiple opponents, and artificer damage boost scale better with AoE spells, you might want to reserve firebolt for single monsters who are far away and harder to hurt. Level 2 gets you arcane infusions, so take enhanced focus and enhanced armor for decent boosts. 3 is where you become an artillerist, and this is where your tanking potential skyrockets. The Protection Cannon lets you grant yourself and the ally you're riding temp HP as a bonus action every single turn for an hour. It doesn't stack unfortunately, but it's a powerful defense ability. Note that although you can hold a tiny cannon, you don't need to in order to use it. As a result, keep it inside your bag so you don't need to give up your shield or wand. 4 gets you an ASI, and you're putting one of those points in WIS, so that you have enough later to multiclass into cleric. 5 gets you an arcane firearm, which boosts your spell damage, as well as scorching ray, which is extra potent in the hands of an artillerist, as RAW you add your bonus damage to each individual ray.

At level 6 we dip into order cleric, this might be a strange choice but believe me there's a reason. See, while the protection turret has insane defensive potential you won't need to use it every turn. Unfortunately, you can only have one turret out at a time until level 15 and the cost for switching is steep. As the artillerist's DPR is designed around using their non-protection turrets. What this means is, you're sacrificing your role as a blaster to use a support ability that you don't even need to use every turn. That's where the order cleric comes it. Voice of Authority lets you give your allies a free reaction attack whenever you target them with a spell, while also giving you great support spells like healing word, bless and heroism. This will let you do your damage with a cantrip, and then heal your rogue or paladin giving them a free attack to do massive damage with so you don't need to. Order cleric also gives you heavy armor proficiency, but don't bother with it. You need to be light enough for your allies to carry.

From here we're back to artificer and the rest is standard

----------


## Petrocorus

> (though IDRotFM implies you can ride another kobold),


What is this?

----------


## x3n0n

> What is this?


I think it's referring to Rime of the Frostmaiden and having three kobolds in a trench coat.

----------


## ftafp

*Illiquar the Tentacular*

Race: Mind Flayer (Simic Hybrid Elf with Amphibious, Grappling Tentacle Enhancements)
Class: Hexblade 1/Whisper Bard X
Stats: STR 14 DEX (13+1) CON 12 INT 8 WIS 10 CHA (15+2)
ASI: Telepathic (+1 CHA) @5 +2 CHA @9 Grappler @13 Elven Accuracy @17 Lucky @20
Expertise: Athletics
Hexblade Weapon: Grappling Tentacles.

Backstory: Originally a surface elf slave purchased from the drow, Illiquar was reborn into a dying Ilithid colony laid low by an unknown illness. This sickness weakened the connection between tadpole and host, causing mature mind flayers to die and unfinished ones like Illiquar to ceremorph improperly. Because the colony collapsed before Illiquar was not fully indoctrinated into mind flayer society, he still retains a mix of naive tendencies, mind flayer instincts and the personality traits of his host

As a hexblade, the sentient weapon Illuquar made a pact with is his tentacles, which have a mind of their own. More specifically it is the misshapen mindflayer tadpole taking up the front half of his skull cavity who whispers to him like a split personality

As a bard, he is a simple monster and most of his songs are about a good meal. These include songs like Brains! By Voltaire, RE: Your Brains by Johnathan Coulton and If I Only Had A Brain from The Wizard of Oz, many of of which are soothing background songs he plays in people's heads while he slurps their brains out

In combat he's mostly just a standard bard, but against spellcasters he prefers to grapple them and then use his tentacles with psychic blades to suck their brains out. Between hexblade's curse, grappler, elven accuracy and lucky he has a high chance of critting, doing double damage

----------


## DevanAvalon

> *Build 12:  The Soulknife*
> 
> *Elf (Shadar Kai) Eldritch Knight 11 / War Wizard 2 / EK 1 / WW 6 (Total EK12 / WW 8)
> Starting Stats*:  Dex 17 / Con 16 / Int 14 / Wis 10
> *ASIs: * War Caster @4, Elven Accuracy (18 Dex) @6, 20 Dex @8, Lucky @14, Alert @16, Resilient (Wis) @20
> *Fighting Style:*  Dueling
> *Cantrips Known:*  Booming Blade, Control Flames, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Shape Water, Green-Flame Blade, Chill Touch
> *Spells Known (EK, Abjuration/Evocation):*  Shield, Absorb Elements, Protection from Evil and Good, Mage Armor, Warding Wind, Thunderwave
> *Spells Known (EK, Any School):*  Find Familiar @3, Shadow [email protected]  At level 12 you should put Find Familiar in your spellbook (so you can use it as a ritual); you can swap the EK spell known out at 14 for whatever you want; Misty Step or something.
> ...


The new errata for Booming Blade has a material component of "A weapon worth at least 1sp" which means Shadow Blade is no longer valid for Booming Blade shenanigans. How to resolve?

----------


## Klorox

> The new errata for Booming Blade has a material component of "A weapon worth at least 1sp" which means Shadow Blade is no longer valid for Booming Blade shenanigans. How to resolve?


I think a lot will be changing when Tasha's hits the shelves.

----------


## dopl

> The new errata for Booming Blade has a material component of "A weapon worth at least 1sp" which means Shadow Blade is no longer valid for Booming Blade shenanigans. How to resolve?


There isn't much that can be done to resolve. Personally think its a dumb change but if your DM is using it then not much to be done about it. Only real option would be to use a Rapier in the off hand over a shield to keep the booming blade AoA, and do TWF with a mainhand Shadowblade.

----------


## Corran

> There isn't much that can be done to resolve. Personally think its a dumb change but if your DM is using it then not much to be done about it. Only real option would be to use a Rapier in the off hand over a shield *to keep the booming blade AoA*, and do TWF with a mainhand Shadowblade.


Edit: Nevermind, I get now what you mean.

----------


## Petrocorus

> I think a lot will be changing when Tasha's hits the shelves.


The more i lean about Tasha's, the more i think the one thing that will change is my policy of allowing all official books at my table.

----------


## solidork

> The new errata for Booming Blade has a material component of "A weapon worth at least 1sp" which means Shadow Blade is no longer valid for Booming Blade shenanigans. How to resolve?


I mean, you don't get Shadow Blade until level 8 and then once you hit level 11 you're most likely going to want to be using the Attack Action and not trying to use War Magic.

For those levels, if you absolutely must do as much damage as possible use a weapon in your other hand instead of a shield and booming blade with that and your Shadow Blade for your War Magic attack. It doesn't matter that they're with different hands in an way unless you trying to engage with the two weapon fighting mechanic.

----------


## Klorox

> The more i lean about Tasha's, the more i think the one thing that will change is my policy of allowing all official books at my table.


I don't think you'll be alone.

Despite WotC not calling this "D&D 5.5" it's really starting to feel like it.

----------


## ftafp

> The new errata for Booming Blade has a material component of "A weapon worth at least 1sp" which means Shadow Blade is no longer valid for Booming Blade shenanigans. How to resolve?





> There isn't much that can be done to resolve. Personally think its a dumb change but if your DM is using it then not much to be done about it. Only real option would be to use a Rapier in the off hand over a shield to keep the booming blade AoA, and do TWF with a mainhand Shadowblade.


You know, it doesn't say you have to attack with the weapon you used as a material component. You can literally just carry a staff in in your off hand (which is a quarterstaff that costs 5gp according to sage advice) and use it as a material component while you attack with a shadow blade EDIT 2: Nevermind, I was looking at the old version

EDIT: By the way, Booming Blade still works with Warcaster according to Crawford

----------


## Petrocorus

> I don't think you'll be alone.
> 
> Despite WotC not calling this "D&D 5.5" it's really starting to feel like it.


I wouldn't mind a 5.5 if the .5 consisted in fixing the issues of 5.0. But the more i learn, the more i have doubts about it and feel like this is going to add more issues.

I don't know what issues there were with the SCAG cantrips, they are on par or maybe better with sword-and-broad, but only if the secondary damages triggers (which is certainly not always the case), and "abusing" it with WarCaster, SpellSniper or PAM actually requires investment.
It has a cost, so it's normal it does something good. And in terms of damages, a cantrips users is certainly not going to outshine a GWM/PAM/SS/XBE martials, way from that.

If the SaB damages are too low, that's more a problem with a SaB lacking a damage feat.
And if cantrips-using hexblades have it too good with their cantrips, that's very clearly a problem with the hexblade.

I'll wait and see, but i am more and more dubitative about this.

----------


## Citadel97501

> I wouldn't mind a 5.5 if the .5 consisted in fixing the issues of 5.0. But the more i learn, the more i have doubts about it and feel like this is going to add more issues.
> 
> I don't what issues there were with the SCAG cantrips, they are on par or maybe better with sword-and-broad, but only if the secondary damages triggers (which is certainly not always the case), and "abusing" it with WarCaster, SpellSniper or PAM actually requires investment.
> It has a cost, so it's normal it does something good. And in terms of damages, a cantrips users is certainly not going to outshine a GWM/PAM/SS/XBE martials, way from that.
> 
> If the SaB damages are too low, that's more a problem with a SaB lacking a damage feat.
> And if cantrips using hexblade have it too good with their cantrips, that's very clearly a problem with the hexblade.
> 
> I'll wait and see, but i am more and more dubitative about this.


Frankly the bad ruling made by WOTC on Shield Expert, is the thing that causes issues with Sword & Board as shield expert was basically a damage feat due to the advantage provided by it usually giving a bonus on par or better than the archery fighting style.

----------


## LudicSavant

> EDIT: By the way, Booming Blade still works with Warcaster according to Crawford


I'm not surprised.  Range (Parenthetical) doesn't mean "targets self" any more than it does in the case of Lightning Bolt.  So things like the Arcana Cleric or Hexbard are gonna be just fine.

The ones who suffer, I suspect, will be characters like the Fighter who want to use Shadow Blade + Booming Blade.  I don't know of any way around that 1sp requirement.  Actual full casters will care a lot less about missing out on upcasting Shadow Blade, since they generally want to just spend their top level slots on actual top level spells.





> The new errata for Booming Blade has a material component of "A weapon worth at least 1sp" which means Shadow Blade is no longer valid for Booming Blade shenanigans. How to resolve?


I wouldn't be surprised if this change _might_ have been made simply to clarify that it's not a spell component you can produce from a material component pouch for free, and they didn't consider Shadow Blade at all.  But who knows?  I ultimately don't know why WotC made this change.

I don't know a way around that, unfortunately.    But we'll see what Tasha's brings for Fighters overall and see if something can be done with other new tools.

----------


## ftafp

There might be a way around it for Wizards (naturally). If they learn Shadow Blade via copying a scroll then the weapon did cost them money

----------


## Agthor

Who is saying a magical conjured shadow  blade is worth less than 1 sp? I think it is worth more

----------


## Darthnazrael

> There might be a way around it for Wizards (naturally). If they learn Shadow Blade via copying a scroll then the weapon did cost them money


When looked at from this angle, Hired Spellcasting in the PHB indicates a lvl 2 spell is worth "10 to 50 gold". Ultimately, it'll be DM discretion, but I think this is your best argument.

----------


## Evaar

A spell isn't a weapon.

A scroll isn't a weapon.

A magical technique that you use to create a weapon is not, in itself, a weapon.

Just ask to house rule it if you really want them to work together. Don't torture the language to make it say something it doesn't, then expect that to carry weight with anyone else.

----------


## ftafp

*Kermit the Slaad*

*Race:* Planetouched Grung (Grung with Customized Origins)
*Class:* Beast Barbarian 6 / Samurai 14
*Stats:* STR (15+1) DEX 13 CON (14+2) INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 10
*ASI:* STR +2 @4, STR +2 @10, CON +2 @12, CON +2 @14, Resilient (DEX +1) @18, Tough @20

*Backstory:* _Kermit "the Slaad" Logan hatched in an area permeated by the chaotic influence of Limbo, and the wild magic mutated him, giving the ability to heal fast, age slowly, produce claws of bone, and grow a phenomenal set of sideburns. Troubled by fits of animalistic rage that led him to kill his father and be exiled from his tribe, Kermit wandered for many years as a loner, eventually traveling to Kara-Tur where he studied martial arts and the code of bushido in an attempt to control his rages._

So, what the hell is this build? Well, I've always been fascinated by the Hairy Frog (also known as the Wolverine Frog because of its sideburns and bone claws), and I remember back when the Beast Barbarian UA came out that I thought a Grung Beast Barbarian would be able to use both its contact and injury poisons at once. Naturally, reading the Aberrant Spirit stat block leaked from Tasha's led me to realize that they are giant frogs with wolverine claws and a healing factor, and given that I'd already built a mind flayer, this seemed like the natural progression

In battle, Kermit is a beast who stacks poison effects with auto-healing abilities and extra attacks. His claws (which can use Claw or Bite stats) have a choice between doing an extra attack or healing him when he's below half health and dealing 2d4 extra poison damage with each attack. In either case the target will need to make a DC 12 CON save to avoid being poisoned for every attack that hits. Second wind and Fighting Spirit give him more ways to recover, and Action Surge is its own reward. As fighters get bonus ASI instead of class features you have several different paths possible for your build. I made Kermit optimized for tankiness here, but someone who wants more melee potential could easily take Dual Wielder and the Two Weapon Fighting fighting style to get an extra claw attack as a bonus action. If you're going to use the stat block here however, you can technically use Duelist with your claws, provided one of them is holding something other than a weapon, such as a shield (the claws only count as weapons if you're not holding anything for some reason), however, you won't be able to use it with your bite as RAW it's not in your hand.

Unfortunately, there's not any official way to get adamantine claws or an adamantine skeleton, but one possible option is to replace your hands with Prosthetic Limbs coated with adamantine. This is kind of a stretch rules-wise, but it is an option




> 「Alien Ant Farm 」
> 
> _Alien Ant Farm resembles a swarm of metallic army ants. These ants can repurpose nearby metal to self-replicate and assemble their collective bodies into complex mechanical structures that are exceptionally sturdy. In addition to its ability to reshape metal, Alien Ant Farm has also shown the ability to create small forges resembling volcanoes or ant hills, staple wounds closed with their mandibles and operate dead bodies via cables. Because of their swarm-like nature, metal composition, and ability to self-replicate, these ants are nearly impossible to destroy except when they form physical structures_
> 
> This build started out purely as an attempt to create an interesting stand-user inspired by the ability of army ants to turn themselves into architecture, but in the process I found that the combination of Forge Cleric with Tasha's new Swarm Ranger was an absolute beast for subjecting an enemy to ongoing AoE, so this is what I came up with. hope you enjoy
> 
> *Race:* V. Human
> *Class:* Swarm Ranger 5 / Forge Cleric 9
> *Stats:* STR (14+1), DEX 12, CON 13, INT 8, WIS (15+1)
> ...


You know, it occurs to me that if you replace V. Human with Dispater Tiefling and Sentinel with Eldritch Adept: Devil's Sight this actually makes a pretty perfect build for a Chain Devil with a swarm of chains.

----------


## Petrocorus

> I wouldn't be surprised if this change _might_ have been made simply to clarify that it's not a spell component you can produce from a material component pouch for free, and they didn't consider Shadow Blade at all.  But who knows?  I ultimately don't know why WotC made this change.


Do they ever communicate on why they do things?

----------


## Agthor

> A spell isn't a weapon.
> 
> A scroll isn't a weapon.
> 
> A magical technique that you use to create a weapon is not, in itself, a weapon.
> 
> Just ask to house rule it if you really want them to work together. Don't torture the language to make it say something it doesn't, then expect that to carry weight with anyone else.


Maybe you should read the shadow blade spell discription. It says it is a weapon.

----------


## LudicSavant

It seems my earlier suspicion was right. 

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...25727360245761

They apparently _did_ intend the "1 sp" fiasco purely because they thought it was clarifying that you couldn't draw a weapon from a spell component pouch, not because they actually spared a thought about how this would interact with various rules and character archetypes like Shadow Blade.  Ugh.




> What is the intention between Booming/Green-flame blades requiring a weapon with a value of at least 1sp, when no weapon (in PHB at least) has a value below 1sp?





> If a D&D spells material component lacks a monetary value and isnt consumed, you dont need that component; you could substitute a component pouch, for instance.
> 
> Booming/Green-Flame Blade need a weapon with a monetary value because they require an actual weapon.


My disappointment is that this takes an ability that everyone seemed to collectively agree on how it worked (I don't think anybody ever thought you could actually pull a weapon from a material component pouch), and in the name of 'clarification' turns it into yet another 'ask your DM what it means' mechanic (as seen by the debates above and in other threads and websites, where people are all arguing about what counts as a 'weapon worth at least 1sp' or not).  So Shadow Blade might very well fall into that same weird category Shield Master is currently in where you can't post builds using it without everyone shouting at each other for a few pages, and you can't play builds using it without having a conversation with your DM first to determine how they rule it.  Isn't this like, the _opposite_ of what errata's supposed to accomplish?  Come on, WotC.

----------


## CMCC

> It seems my earlier suspicion was right. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...25727360245761
> 
> They apparently _did_ intend the "1 sp" fiasco purely because they thought it was clarifying that you couldn't draw a weapon from a spell component pouch, not because they actually spared a thought about how this would interact with various rules and character archetypes like Shadow Blade.  Ugh.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My disappointment is that this takes an ability that everyone seemed to collectively agree on how it worked (I don't think anybody ever thought you could actually pull a weapon from a material component pouch), and in the name of 'clarification' turns it into yet another 'ask your DM what it means' mechanic (as seen by the debates above and in other threads and websites, where people are all arguing about what counts as a 'weapon worth at least 1sp' or not).  So Shadow Blade might very well fall into that same weird category Shield Master is currently in where you can't post builds using it without everyone shouting at each other for a few pages, and you can't play builds using it without having a conversation with your DM first to determine how they rule it.  Isn't this like, the _opposite_ of what errata's supposed to accomplish?  Come on, WotC.


Weird, his comment about the cost of shadow blade and pact weapon cost (pact weapons have the value in the phb... shadow blade is made from pure gloom) gave me the exact opposite impression. 




> This question relates to the SCAG errata regarding Booming Blade... does the monetary value of the component now negate being able to use your Pact of the Blade weapon or Shadow Blade in conjunction with Booming Blade?





> If a D&D warlock creates a weapon with Pact of the Blade, that weapon has the value indicated in chapter 5 of the Player's Handbook (the text of Pact of the Blade directs the reader to that chapter to choose the weapon).
> 
> Shadow blade, in contrast, weaves together gloom. #DnD

----------


## da newt

More:


ChaosOS @ChaosOS_59
Replying to 
@JeremyECrawford
So removing the Shadow Blade option is fully intentional?


Brett [email protected]_play
I took the opposite intention out of this. What he seems to be describing is that the spell requires a weapon and that you can't sub out the "material component" for an arcane focus or component pouch. Shadow blade seems like an unintended consequence.


Jeremy [email protected]

You're exactly right, @brett_play. The component entries of the two spells were simply incorrect; they didn't follow the rules for how components work. We've corrected them and, as a consequence, some combos that never should have worked no longer work.

----------


## LudicSavant

> Weird, his comment about the cost of shadow blade and pact weapon cost (pact weapons have the value in the phb... shadow blade is made from pure gloom) gave me the exact opposite impression.


Oh.  What comment was that?  I don't think I saw that one.

*Edit*:  
Another tweet that could be relevant to the current discussion:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...25328267177984

----------


## CMCC

> Oh.  What comment was that?  I don't think I saw that one.
> 
> *Edit*:  
> Another tweet that could be relevant to the current discussion:
> https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...25328267177984


Thats the one (added to my post). He clearly demonstrates it has no value from the phb so cant be used with booming blade. 

Pact of the blade is fine. Shadow blade is a no go. Theres no reason for arguments on this one.

----------


## x3n0n

Is this an accurate summary of post-errata BB/GFB @JeremyECrawford tweets?

The intent of BB/GFB material component change was to ensure that you don't use a component pouch or non-weapon focus as the M component.

He argues that Pact Weapon is obviously ok, since the weapon corresponds directly to something that has a set cost.
He also says that he "as a DM" would allow Shadow Blade as M component (implying that the change was not intended to disallow it, but not giving convincing RAW to reinforce it).

(Also GFB/BB, but not material components: both are intended to work with War Caster opportunity attacks, now that GFB's second-target damage is optional.)

----------


## LudicSavant

> Is this an accurate summary of post-errata BB/GFB @JeremyECrawford tweets?
> 
> The intent of BB/GFB material component change was to ensure that you don't use a component pouch or non-weapon focus as the M component.
> 
> He argues that Pact Weapon is obviously ok, since the weapon corresponds directly to something that has a set cost.
> He also says that he "as a DM" would allow Shadow Blade as M component (implying that the change was not intended to disallow it, but not giving convincing RAW to reinforce it).
> 
> (Also GFB/BB, but not material components: both are intended to work with War Caster opportunity attacks, now that GFB's second-target damage is optional.)


That's basically what I got from it as well.

What I took from his latest batch of tweets was:

- War Caster is unaffected.
- Unlike Pact of the Blade, the value of gloom is undefined, and requires a ruling.
- As a DM, he would define it by picking from the list of simple weapons, thus allowing Shadow Blade to work.
- The intention was not to affect Shadow Blade, but to clarify that players actually needed a weapon, instead of a focus or component pouch.

There is of course the alternate interpretation that 'undefined value' means 'has a value less than 1sp.'  Which leaves us with our frustrating state of affairs where everyone's going to argue forever about RAI vs RAW vs other interpretations of RAW.  Or, in other words, precisely what is happening on Twitter, Reddit, GitP and every other bloody D&D venue I've checked.  And I expect we will see tables split in various different directions on a regular basis, if past instances like this are any indication.

----------


## Gignere

Interestingly the more conservative approach on Shadowblade not working with BB hurts EKs more than anybody else because of war magic. 

Bladesingers can just dual wield another weapon and make the cantrip with the other weapon. This doesnt hurt their AC at all and it can qualify for the bonus action dual wield attack too. So doesnt even hurt their damage. 

However for EKs theyll either have to give up their shield, so they can SCAGTrip and then bonus action attack with Shadowblade in other hand. Or choose to use shadowblade and forgo SCAGTrip with a shield or use a normal weapon use SCAGTrip with shield instead of SB.  Either way EKs are getting a flat out damage hit and if they want to use SCAGTRIP with SB an AC hit on top of it.

----------


## CMCC

> That's basically what I got from it as well.
> 
> What I took from his latest batch of tweets was:
> 
> - War Caster is unaffected.
> - Unlike Pact of the Blade, the value of gloom is undefined, and requires a ruling.
> - As a DM, he would define it by picking from the list of simple weapons, thus allowing Shadow Blade to work.
> - The intention was not to affect Shadow Blade, but to clarify that players actually needed a weapon, instead of a focus or component pouch.
> 
> There is of course the alternate interpretation that 'undefined value' means 'has a value less than 1sp.'  Which leaves us with our frustrating state of affairs where everyone's going to argue forever about RAI vs RAW vs other interpretations of RAW.  Or, in other words, precisely what is happening on Twitter, Reddit, GitP and every other bloody D&D venue I've checked.  And I expect we will see tables split in various different directions on a regular basis, if past instances like this are any indication.


Undefined in this context means valueless. Magic weapons obviously have the base value of their weapon.

----------


## Evaar

> Maybe you should read the shadow blade spell discription. It says it is a weapon.


Yes, but read my post in the context of the posts preceding it.

The cost of inscribing a spell in your spellbook does not mean the weapon you get from casting that spell has a value of 1sp.

The cost of creating a scroll from which to cast Shadow Blade does not mean that the weapon you get from using up that scroll has a value of 1sp.

The weapon itself has to have the value. Shadow Blade isn't a weapon with a value. The fact that you may have to spend money to learn how to create a Shadow Blade doesn't mean it now has a value.

We might all agree that you should be able to cast Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade with a Shadow Blade, that's fine, houserule it. But let's not try to pretend that there's a way to read the language to conclude that it fits RAW. Let the language be the language, and change it if you disagree with its effect.

----------


## da newt

"Undefined in this context means valueless. Magic weapons obviously have the base value of their weapon." 

Undefined - adjective: not clear or defined.  Valueless - adjective: having no value; worthless.

I think undefined in that context is being interpreted as valueless by some, but I don't think that is correct.  Those two words are not synonyms.  

Also, NO - magic weapons do not have the base value of their weapon.  Magic weapons are much more expensive and it is based on their rarity.  A legendary magic long sword does not have the same value of a mundane long sword.

----------


## Gignere

> "Undefined in this context means valueless. Magic weapons obviously have the base value of their weapon." 
> 
> Undefined - adjective: not clear or defined.  Valueless - adjective: having no value; worthless.
> 
> I think undefined in that context is being interpreted as valueless by some, but I don't think that is correct.  Those two words are not synonyms.  
> 
> Also, NO - magic weapons do not have the base value of their weapon.  Magic weapons are much more expensive and it is based on their rarity.  A legendary magic long sword does not have the same value of a mundane long sword.


One cool thing about pact of the blade before was that you could have summoned anything and be proficient with it. You know like the devil spear in the monster manual but now if you do that you suddenly lose the ability to use GFB, but if you summon a regular old greatsword you can.

----------


## Petrocorus

> They apparently _did_ intend the "1 sp" fiasco purely because they thought it was clarifying that you couldn't draw a weapon from a spell component pouch, not because they actually spared a thought about how this would interact with various rules and character archetypes like Shadow Blade.  Ugh.


I don't see how anyone would sincerely think you can draw a weapon from a spell component pouch.
At the very best, it would be a specious, maybe duplicitous, stretch of the rules.




> My disappointment is that this takes an ability that everyone seemed to collectively agree on how it worked (I don't think anybody ever thought you could actually pull a weapon from a material component pouch), and in the name of 'clarification' turns it into yet another 'ask your DM what it means' mechanic (as seen by the debates above and in other threads and websites, where people are all arguing about what counts as a 'weapon worth at least 1sp' or not).  So Shadow Blade might very well fall into that same weird category Shield Master is currently in where you can't post builds using it without everyone shouting at each other for a few pages, and you can't play builds using it without having a conversation with your DM first to determine how they rule it.  Isn't this like, the _opposite_ of what errata's supposed to accomplish?  Come on, WotC.


I'm with you on this.
The WotC team really have issue with the wording of their rules.
And they don't seem to know much on how the game is played on many table.

----------


## CMCC

> "Undefined in this context means valueless. Magic weapons obviously have the base value of their weapon." 
> 
> Undefined - adjective: not clear or defined.  Valueless - adjective: having no value; worthless.
> 
> I think undefined in that context is being interpreted as valueless by some, but I don't think that is correct.  Those two words are not synonyms.  
> 
> Also, NO - magic weapons do not have the base value of their weapon.  Magic weapons are much more expensive and it is based on their rarity.  A legendary magic long sword does not have the same value of a mundane long sword.


You're leaving out the connective tissue here (hence "in this context"). When looking to answer the question of value: the phb weapons and equipment sections were cited as the primary tools to answer the value question. There is room for reasonable association for some items not listed. "Gloom" is not a reasonable association. And JC pretty clearly alluded to this fact twice.




> Also, NO - magic weapons do not have the base value of their weapon.  Magic weapons are much more expensive and it is based on their rarity.  A legendary magic long sword does not have the same value of a mundane long sword.


You're saying the same thing I am. Base value means lowest or initial value, which is all we care about here. A magic longsword is worth at LEAST the value of a regular long sword. Any value beyond that is irrelevant to the discussion.


Is it possible to move this all to another -  more appropriate - thread?

----------


## Gignere

> You're leaving out the connective tissue here (hence "in this context"). When looking to answer the question of value: the phb weapons and equipment sections were cited as the primary tools to answer the value question. There is room for reasonable association for some items not listed. "Gloom" is not a reasonable association. And JC pretty clearly alluded to this fact twice.
> 
> 
> 
> You're saying the same thing I am. Base value means lowest or initial value, which is all we care about here. A magic longsword is worth at LEAST the value of a regular long sword. Any value beyond that is irrelevant to the discussion.


But what does a rod of lordly might has its a rod? Not a weapon you press a button it acts like a weapon but it isnt that weapon so can you BB/GFB with it? I think youll see a lot more of these question, what about Sunblade that is a long sword hilt, what is the value of a long sword hilt?

What is the value of a sword made of radiant light? If one made of gloom is valueless.

----------


## da newt

WRT creating a separate thread - sure.

WRT determining the value of a one handed finesse weapon that causes 2d8 (or more) magical psychic damage per hit and grants ADV if used in low light or darkness, that is a separate discussion all together.  What existing weapons in the PHB or any other source book come close to the SHADOW BLADE's capabilities?  The spell states very clearly that it creates a magic sword - there isn't a single magic sword that has a value of less than 1 sp - in fact there are no swords of any kind that have a value of less than 1 sp ...   


"You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom in your hand. This magic sword lasts until the spell ends. It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you are proficient. It deals 2d8 psychic damage on a hit and has the finesse, light, and thrown properties (range 20/60). In addition, when you use the sword to attack a target that is in dim light or darkness, you make the attack roll with advantage.
If you drop the weapon or throw it, it dissipates at the end of the turn. Thereafter, while the spell persists, you can use a bonus action to cause the sword to reappear in your hand."

----------


## Xanfyr

Hey there!

I am a huge fan of your variety of builds, and wanted to express my appreciation for your work.  I just recently decided to try out your Arcane Cleric, and was wondering if you had a progression to the build that shows the level by level spells and whatnot.  If you don't, no worries.  I just thought I'd ask.  Thank you either way.

----------


## Tekrow

So, if I wanted to build something similar to a Death Knight from Wacraft, what would be the best classes to do it?

----------


## Daver35

> Hey there!
> 
> I am a huge fan of your variety of builds, and wanted to express my appreciation for your work.  I just recently decided to try out your Arcane Cleric, and was wondering if you had a progression to the build that shows the level by level spells and whatnot.  If you don't, no worries.  I just thought I'd ask.  Thank you either way.


You're a Cleric, which means you have ALL the spells. Every day you get to pick which ones you want to prepare for the day, so just adjust based on the situation. Just make sure to keep prepared healing word, spiritual weapon and spirit guardians, plus some other choices depending on what you may encounter that day. For example, protection from good and evil is really good if you know what you're facing. Other decent picks at lower levels are bless, sanctuary and shield of faith (in case you need to be the main tank).

----------


## ftafp

> So, if I wanted to build something similar to a Death Knight from Wacraft, what would be the best classes to do it?


I dont remember most of the lore, but Arthas was the archetypal fallen paladin. if i had to guess, he'd be a mix of Oathbreaker and Hexblade. IIRC, Oathbreakers do become death knights when they die. Death Knight abilities in WoW from what i remember were heavier on necrotic and cold damage though, so stick closer to warlock

----------


## Tekrow

> I dont remember most of the lore, but Arthas was the archetypal fallen paladin. if i had to guess, he'd be a mix of Oathbreaker and Hexblade. IIRC, Oathbreakers do become death knights when they die. Death Knight abilities in WoW from what i remember were heavier on necrotic and cold damage though, so stick closer to warlock


That's in line with what I had in mind. Also, if I wanted a mostly monk build, but that could also function as a party face(not at the level of a bard, but decently charismatic) what would be the best multiclass I could do? Bard? Rogue? Warlock?

----------


## ftafp

> That's in line with what I had in mind. Also, if I wanted a mostly monk build, but that could also function as a party face(not at the level of a bard, but decently charismatic) what would be the best multiclass I could do? Bard? Rogue? Warlock?


Rogue has the best synergy and will give you expertise with a single level dip. You'll also get sneak attack damage if you use a finess weapon on top of that, though I imagine most people who want to main monk are in it for unarmed attacks.

One more unconventional suggestion however is Samurai as it will let you add your wisdom to persuasion checks (albeit requiring a substantial dip). In addition, the unarmed fighting style will make your unarmed attacks use a d8 for damage long before you get it from your monk levels, and action surge is never a bad thing to have

----------


## Petrocorus

> Hey there!
> 
> I am a huge fan of your variety of builds, and wanted to express my appreciation for your work.  I just recently decided to try out your Arcane Cleric, and was wondering if you had a progression to the build that shows the level by level spells and whatnot.  If you don't, no worries.  I just thought I'd ask.  Thank you either way.


It varies
For the starting stats as a Vuman, that will usually be 10/14/13/12/16/10 but it can be 10/14/15/10/16/8.

Usually, you go Vuman and the ASI progression can be:
1: MI: Druid (Shillelagh, another cantrip, Goodberries or Absorb Elements) Goodberries combines well with Spell Breaker (level 6 feature).
4: Warcaster 
8: +2 Wis
12: Res (Con)
16: +2 Wis
19: Whatever you want, but Lucky is a prime candidate.

It has to be adapted to your campaign and you're DM style.
There is the possibility to use a race with a bonus druid cantrip, there are some in the Plane Shift.
When i used the build in ToA, i had to take Res (Con) before Warcaster because the DM was big on poison and exhaustion roll.
The choice of cantrips depends on the party composition, you may want more utility ones or focus on damage cantrips. The build potentially works with only BB or GFB (+Shillelagh).
The spells obviously change every days, but as a Cleric, you will focus on Bless, Healing Word, Aid, Spiritual Weapon, Mass Healing Word, Spirit Guardians, etc. The usual contenders.

----------


## Gtdead

> So, if I wanted to build something similar to a Death Knight from Wacraft, what would be the best classes to do it?


Oh boy. It's been a while since I last played WoW, but I want to give this a try.

The last time I mained a Deathknight was Mists of Pandaria. I've played a lot of PvP with that character so I'm very familiar with the abilities of an *Unholy* deathknight but they will probably be horribly outdated. I can't emulate the other two because frankly, I didn't like playing them. Frost is very similar to a fighter. Blood is a cheesy build for outdoor pvp or a pve tank. DnD can't emulate threat tanks.

Offensively:
Diseases - Steady tick of damage, possibly AoE.
Necrotic Strike - Damage and healing debuff
Soul Reaper - The execute ability, deals a lot of damage if the target is under 35% health.
Gargoyle - Summon that deals a lot of single target damage.
Chains of Ice - Slow
Icy Touch glyph - Dispel
Strangulate - Silence
Raise Dead - Pet ghoul
Dark Transformation - Boosting the output of your summon
Deathgrip - Pull an enemy to you
Deathcoil - Basic ranged attack

Defensively:
Antimagic Shell - Immunity to magic
Icebound Fortitude - Damage Reduction and Immunity to stun
Death Strike - Heal when you deal damage.
Blood presence - Damage Reduction

Other:
Lichborne - Makes you an undead (meaning immunities and healing through self targeting deathcoil)
Deathpact - Transfers health from your ghoul to you.

----------

This are the abilities that I think emulate his abilities best.

1) Spirit Guardians : Diseases, Chains of Ice - DoT and Slow
2) Chill Touch : Necrotic Strike - Mediocre Damage but limits Healig
3) Banishing Smite : Soul Reaper - If an enemy reaches 50 health, he loses.
4) Animate Dead / Create Undead: Raise Dead - Sadly I'm not aware of a concentration minion that can control or self explode.
5) Crusader's Mantle / Aura of Hate / Undead Thralls : Dark Transformation
6) Spiritual Weapon/Animate Objects : Gargoyle - It drains Runic Power, so I think a bonus action ability is appropriate here.
7) Lightning Lure/Compelled Duel : Deathgrip - This is uninspiring but that's a difficult spell to emulate.
8) Aura of Protection : Antimagic Shell & Icebound Fortitude & Lichborne - 
9) Vampire Touch : Death Strike
10) Dispel Magic : IT Glyph - As straightforward as it can be
11) Silence & Counterspell : Strangulate
12) Blade Ward : Blood Presence - This stance decreases your damage output significantly.
13) Toll the Dead/Sacred Flame : Deathcoil
14) Any healing ability : Deathpact - I can't really find something more appropriate. Wish you could use life transference on your minions.
15) Find Steed : Also the iconic Deathknight is mounted.

Build 1:

Strict Adherence
Oathbreaker 9 / Bard 10 / Sorcerer 1

1) Spirit Guardians : Bard Magical Secrets lvl 6
2) Chill Touch : Sorcerer 1
3) Banishing Smite : Bard Magical Secrets lvl 10
4) Animate Dead : Oathbreaker 9
5) Crusader's Mantle / Aura of Hate : Oathbreaker 9/7
6) Animate Objects : Bard 9
7) Lightning Lure/Compelled Duel : Sorcerer 1 / Oathbreaker 2
8) Aura of Protection : Oathbreaker 6
9) Vampire Touch : Bard Magical Secrets lvl 10
10) Dispel Magic : Oathbreaker 9 / Bard 5
11) Silence & Counterspell : Bard 3 & Bard Magical Secrets lvl 6
12) Blade Ward : Sorcerer 1
13) Offensive Cantrip : Sorcerer 1
14) Any healing ability : Both Paladin and Bard have those
15) Find Steed : Paladin 5

This build can emulate a Deathknight fairly well, but it will come online very late. Perhaps for a high level oneshot.
There are also a lot of redundancies here, but that's a problem when we try to recreate something on a different system.

Build 2:

Less strict adherence but uses Ravnica background.
Orzhov representative Oathbreaker 11 / Hexblade 9

1) Spirit Guardians : Background
2) Chill Touch : Hexblade
3) Banishing Smite : Hexblade
4) Animate Dead / Accursed Spectre : Oathbreaker / Hexblade
5) Crusader's Mantle / Aura of Hate : Oathbreaker
6) Spiritual Weapon / Animate Objects : Omitted, we have uses for the BA
7) Compelled Duel : Oathbreaker (Redundant)
8) Aura of Protection : Oathbreaker
9) Vampire Touch : Hexblade (Redundant)
10) Dispel Magic : Oathbreaker
11) Silence & Counterspell : Omitted & Hexblade
12) Blade Ward : Hexblade (Redundant)
13) Offensive Cantrip : Hexblade (EB obviously)
14) Any healing ability : Oathbreaker
15) Find Steed : Oathbreaker

 I think this has a better level progression, but it won't play much like a Death Knight at low levels. Also I'm not sure what is the best level progression. Probably Paladin 11 first.

Build 3:

Spirit of the class.
Necromancer 6 / Life Cleric 14

This one can be built as a Cleric 5 -> Necromancer 6 or Cleric 13 -> Necromancer 6
The point here is to be self sufficient and emulate the basic playstyle which is minions, aoe trickling damage and self healing.

As a capstone, he gets Regenerate, and with Life Cleric's Disciple of Life, it ticks for something like 10 health per turn.
Along with shield and absorb elements, heavy armor proficiency and shield, he is going to be extremely self sufficient in the front lines, tanking for his minions. It's MAD though so it won't be very easy to build. Sadly he doesn't get Aura of Protection so he will be less resistant than a DK in WoW, but I think it will feel a lot more like one from a fairly low level.

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## dopl

Thinking on it, wouldn't it be possible to build an EK/Bladesinger now without wasting the second source of extra attack since now we could combine EK 7s feature with the cantrip replacing to get up to 5 attacks a turn.

Wouldn't be fully online until like level 19, but progression wouldn't be actively awful and by the early teens you can throw out 2 booming blades and 2 normal attacks a turn with a haste on yourself, on top of the same ol warcaster booming blade reaction attack.

Probably worse than the OG booming/Shadow blade build but given that that now needs DM homebrewing to function, this might be the most viable option for using booming blade in base mechanics.

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## Gignere

> Thinking on it, wouldn't it be possible to build an EK/Bladesinger now without wasting the second source of extra attack since now we could combine EK 7s feature with the cantrip replacing to get up to 5 attacks a turn.
> 
> Wouldn't be fully online until like level 19, but progression wouldn't be actively awful and by the early teens you can throw out 2 booming blades and 2 normal attacks a turn with a haste on yourself, on top of the same ol warcaster booming blade reaction attack.
> 
> Probably worse than the OG booming/Shadow blade build but given that that now needs DM homebrewing to function, this might be the most viable option for using booming blade in base mechanics.


Not sure how youre getting two booming blades, are you using action surge? 

Assuming 11 ek / 6 bs you can do three attacks, replace one of them with BB, and war magic qualifies so you do 1 bonus action attack. How are you getting a second booming in there?

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## dopl

> Not sure how youre getting two booming blades, are you using action surge? 
> 
> Assuming 11 ek / 6 bs you can do three attacks, replace one of them with BB, and war magic qualifies so you do 1 bonus action attack. How are you getting a second booming in there?



As I mentioned, I'm talking about it with a haste you would put on yourself. You can't normally cast with that haste action but you could replace your attack with a cantrip through bladesingers feature. 

You are indeed correct that you wouldn't get that extra booming blade if you don't have the haste up though, and obviously it's incredibly high risk since fighting melee while concentrating on haste is a big stun risk.

Also now realizing this comes fully online at 17th level not 19th. Math derp on my end.

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## Gignere

> As I mentioned, I'm talking about it with a haste you would put on yourself. You can't normally cast with that haste action but you could replace your attack with a cantrip through bladesingers feature. 
> 
> You are indeed correct that you wouldn't get that extra booming blade if you don't have the haste up though, and obviously it's incredibly high risk since fighting melee while concentrating on haste is a big stun risk.
> 
> Also now realizing this comes fully online at 17th level not 19th. Math derp on my end.


I dont think thats allowable by BS feature. Haste limitations in this case is more specific to the extra attack granted by haste. Haste is very specific that it has to be a weapon attack and cant be a cantrip. However if your DM allows it more power to you.

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## dopl

> I dont think thats allowable by BS feature. Haste limitations in this case is more specific to the extra attack granted by haste. Haste is very specific that it has to be a weapon attack and cant be a cantrip. However if your DM allows it more power to you.


I honestly don't see why it wouldn't work. Haste does nothing to prevent you from casting spells, it just has a limited selection of actions you can take with the action it grants. Among those actions is an attack action limited to one attack. Bladesinger lets you substitute an attack you make with the attack action with a cantrip.

In this case, you are still taking the attack action as restricted to by haste, and are merely altering the attack you can make with an attack action through bladesinger. 

You would be correct that most cantrips couldn't be used in this way since haste limits it to a single weapon attack, but booming blade is a weapon attack rather than spell attack, so it ends up fitting together perfectly.

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## ftafp

*The Level 14 Aristocrat*

_"-By someone with an NPC class, yes."
"I feel dirty inside"_

*NPC Stat Block:* Noble
*Race:* Mountain Dwarf
*Class:* Prodigy Spellcaster Sidekick 14
*Stats:* STR 11, DEX (12+2), CON 11, INT 12, WIS 14, CHA (16+2)
*ASI:* CHA +2 @4, Warcaster @8, Polearm Master @12
*Important Spells:* Magic Stone, Eldritch Blast, Dissonant Whispers. Healing Word


*Important Proficiencies:* Glaive, Pike or Halberd, Medium Armor

For a while I've been wanting to do an NPC build, and while some of the potential options (Particularly a Dolgrim Warrior) looked insane, I wanted to post a build that would be powerful without being game breaking, so here it is, the level 14 Aristocrat. Let's look at this in a level-by-level breakdown and see what it can do.

When you start at level 1, your superiority over warlock is immediate. While you know one fewer spell, you already have two 1st level spell slots by virtue of your 3/2 caster progression and full access to both the warlock and bard spell lists. At this level, Magic Stone is going to be a more valuable cantrip to you than Eldritch Blast due to the addition of your +4 CHA bonus to damage, but don't worry about making your second cantrip a utility spell like minor illusion or prestidigitation. See, unlike PC classes post-tasha you can't swap out your cantrips when you gain an ASI, but the spellcaster npc can replace one of their spells known with a cantrip any time they level up. In addition to that spellcasting prowess you have a breastplate as starting equipment and a rapier which will be just fine for now. Thanks to your noble stat block, you can parry as a reaction while you have a melee weapon at hand, giving you a +2 AC bonus against a melee attack of your choice. It's not shield, but it's free

Level 2 is slightly dull. Sidekicks are stingier on new abilities, treating gaining a new spell known, new spell slots or a proficiency bonus increase as dead levels. That's fine for us though, because we can choose a second spell of our choice from the Bard or Warlock spell list. The same goes for level 3, and level 4 is when we get an ASI to CHA, giving us max CHA pretty early. Level 5 gets us second level spells, again from either the Bard or Wizard spell lists, and a new spell known on top of that to play with.

At Level you get potent cantrip and this is where things get interesting. While the obvious use here is to replicate Agonizing Blast with eldritch blast, the wording of the sidekick's Potent Cantrips is significantly looser.




> The sidekick can add its spellcasting ability modifier to the damage it deals with any cantrip.


Note that it doesn't say, "to one damage roll of the spell" or that this is bonus damage that occurs under some condition and then can't be used again. You can apply this to every damage roll, which is particularly useful for cantrips such as Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade and Conjure Bonfire. Magic stone also benefits from this, but as you don't have animate dead or tiny servants on your spell list it's probably not worthwhile to stick with. I'm sticking to eldritch blast for this build but the SCAG cantrips have a lot to gain from using this

The trend of boring continues until level 8 when you get warcaster. By this level you'll want a reach weapon to make the most of it, Dissonant Whispers will pair with it excellently. Level 12 give you Polearm Master which lets you blast people who come close as long as you carry a polearm. Lastly, 14 gives you empowered spell which lets you apply your CHA bonus to all spells of a school of your choice. This applies to healing and stacks with potent cantrips, so evocation is the best school to go with as you'll use it with both your blast cantrips and healing word

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## BarneyBent

> Usually, you go Vuman and the ASI progression can be:
> 1: MI: Druid (Shillelagh, another cantrip, Goodberries or Absorb Elements) Goodberries combines well with Spell Breaker (level 6 feature).


Technically, Goodberry cast with MI does not work with Spellbreaker, as spellbreaker requires that the spell ended be of equal or lower level to the spell slot used to cast the spell, and you don't use a spell slot when casting Goodberry.

A DM may allow it, but RAW it doesn't work.

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## DevanAvalon

So, for Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul sorcs, you get a list of spells that are always prepared, and can be swapped for any spell of certain schools of magic from wizard, sorc, OR warlock spell lists on level up. So I wanted to put it out there for the more smart bois and gals. What cool "always prepared" shenanigans can we get up to with Sorcerer using these?

Psionic Spells
Level	Spells
1st	arms of Hadar, dissonant whispers, mind sliver
3rd	calm emotions, detect thoughts
5th	hunger of Hadar, sending
7th	Evards black tentacles, summon aberration
9th	Rarys telepathic bond, telekinesis

Can replace these spells with Divination or Enchantment from wiz, sorc, or warlock.

Clockwork Spells
Level	Spells
1st	alarm, protection from evil and good
3rd	aid, lesser restoration
5th	dispel magic, protection from energy
7th	freedom of movement, summon construct
9th	greater restoration, wall of force

can replace these spells with Abjuration or Transmutation from wiz, sorc, or warlock.

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## Draz74

*Crystal-Covered Crusher*


The basic idea here is simple, a Psi Warrior who uses an Artificer dip to become Int-SAD, with Lightning Launcher as its main weapon. You can have a pretty good AC (20 or 21) without tanking your Stealth skill (plate armor, shield, Enhanced Defense infusion). I'm not counting on the Customizing Your Origin rules being in play (and I don't like the ability-score-swapping option), but if these rules are fair game, the Hobgoblin proficiency features become three tool proficiencies of your choice; very flavorful!

*Hobgoblin, Inheritor, Psi Warrior Fighter 17 / Armorer Artificer 3* 
*Str* 10, *Dex* 14, *Con* 14, *Int* 16, *Wis* 11, *Cha* 10
*Proficiencies:* Athletics, Survival, Arcana, Stealth; _customized origin variant:_ three Tools of your choice. 
Fighter: Archery fighting style; (Second Wind)Fighter: (Action Surge 1/short rest)Fighter: (Psionic Power 4d6; Protective Field; Psionic Strike; Telekinetic Movement)Fighter: Fey Touched feat - boost Int +1 - _gift of alacrity & misty step_Fighter: (Extra Attack 1; Psionic Power 6d8)Artificer: _guidance & thorn whip_; (Thieves' Tools & Tinker's Tools proficiency; Spellcasting; Magical Tinkering)Artificer: Enhanced Defense & Homunculus Servant & Mind Sharpener & Replicate Magic Item: Sending Stones infusions; (Infuse Item)Artificer: Armor Model - Infiltrator; (Armorer Spells - _magic missile & thunderwave_; Smith's Tools proficiency; Arcane Armor; The Right Tool for the Job)Fighter: Skill Expert feat - boost Int +1 - History proficiency - Arcana expertise; (Psionic Power 8d8)Fighter: (Psi-Powered Leap; Telekinetic Thrust)Fighter: boost Int +2Fighter: (Indomitable 1/long rest)Fighter: (Guarded Mind; Psionic Power 10d8)Fighter: (Extra Attack 2; Psionic Power 10d10)Fighter: Sharpshooter featFighter: (Indomitable 2/long rest)Fighter: Resilient feat - boost Wis +1; (Psionic Power 12d10)Fighter: (Bulwark of Force)Fighter: Lucky featFighter: (Action Surge 2/short rest; Indomitable 3/long rest; Psionic Power 12d12)
*Spoiler: Typical Artificer Spell Preparations*
Show

(3/day) _absorb elements, detect magic, disguise self, expeditious retreat, faerie fire, identify, magic missile, thunderwave_

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## bendking

> So, for Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul sorcs, you get a list of spells that are always prepared, and can be swapped for any spell of certain schools of magic from wizard, sorc, OR warlock spell lists on level up. So I wanted to put it out there for the more smart bois and gals. What cool "always prepared" shenanigans can we get up to with Sorcerer using these?


Here's what I came up with (with the help of TheUser) for Aberrant Mind, for a Half-Elf (Actor) build. Shenanigans abound.

*The Master-mind*
Half-Elf (Actor) - Subtle, Careful, [Quicken]:
1 - Mage Armor, Shield, [Sleep, Dissonant Whispers]
2 - Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements | [Sleep, Dissonant Whispers]
3 - Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements | Phantasmal Force, [Sleep, Dissonant Whispers, Calm Emotions, Suggestion]
4 - Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Disguise Self | Phantasmal Force | [Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Calm Emotions, Suggestion]
5 - Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Disguise Self | - | Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, [Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Calm Emotions, Suggestion, Hunger of Hadar, Clairvoyance]
6 - Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Disguise Self | - | Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Counterspell, [Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Calm Emotions, Suggestion, Hunger of Hadar, Clairvoyance]
7 - Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Disguise Self | - | Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Counterspell | Sickening Radiance, [Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Calm Emotions, Suggestion, Hunger of Hadar, Clairvoyance, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster]
8 - Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Disguise Self | - | Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Counterspell | Sickening Radiance, Dimension Door [Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Calm Emotions, Suggestion, Hunger of Hadar, Clairvoyance, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster]
9 - Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Disguise Self | - | Hypnotic Pattern, Tidal Wave, Counterspell | Sickening Radiance, Dimension Door | Synaptic Static, [Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Calm Emotions, Suggestion, Hunger of Hadar, Clairvoyance, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Modify Memory, Telekinesis]
10- Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Disguise Self | - | Hypnotic Pattern, Tidal Wave, Counterspell | Sickening Radiance, Dimension Door | Synaptic Static, Animate Objects, [Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Calm Emotions, Suggestion, Hunger of Hadar, Clairvoyance, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Modify Memory, Telekinesis]

[ ] = Origin Spells

I might expand this into a full-fledged build post later, but honestly, almost everything you need to know for the build is here.

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## Citadel97501

Hello all, I was just wondering if anyone has worked out a gunmage style build using the mix of Wizard: Bladesinger, Fighter: Psi Warrior, and Artificer: Artillerist or Armorer.  This will allow you to have a gunner style character, who with a mix of these class abilities, will have access to very high armor class, damage reduction, and a deadly alpha strike.  It will take a bit of set up to get it all working but the sheer effects available are terrifying if paying attention to action economy.  

It will be basically functional by level 6, but at 9 it gets better, and at 12 is ready to go in any direction you like, I have extended it out to level 15, as I am not sure what to do after that.  Basically the armorer version is built to enhance speed, AC, and be even more SAD, while the Artillerist version is either a focused blaster or an acid turret with extreme THP, and damage reduction as a defense.

*Spoiler: Artillerist Version*
Show

*Artillerist as a Gun Mage*
High Elf or Variant Human, Bladesinger Wizard: 6, Psi Warrior: Fighter 3 / Artillerist: Artificer 3
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 10

Proficiencies: Athletics, Investigation, Perception, Athletics, Performance; Sailor: Navigator's tools, Vehicles Water (I just really like perception.)
Cantrips: Acid Splash, Fire Bolt, Mending, Booming Blade
Wizard 2: Training in War & Song, Blade Song
Wizard 4: Crossbow Expert or Intelligence +2 either works...
Wizard 6: Extra Attack (note The 2nd part is very important!)

Fighter 1: Fighting Style: Defense, Second Wind
Fighter 2: (Action Surge 1/short rest)
Fighter 3: (Psionic Power 4d6; Protective Field; Psionic Strike; Telekinetic Movement)

Artificer 1: Guidance & Thorn Whip; (Thieves' Tools & Tinker's Tools proficiency; Spellcasting; Magical Tinkering)
Artificer 2: Enhanced Defense & Enhanced Arcane Focus & Mind Sharpener & Replicate Magic Item
Artificer 3: Eldritch Cannon

Fighter 4: +2 Intelligence ASI
Artificer 4: +2 intelligence ASI, or Crossbow Expert if you didn't take it last time.  
Artificer 5: Arcane Firearm

Combat at level 12: 
Round 1, Action Cast: Haste, Action Surge: Summon Eldritch Cannon, Haste Action: Cast attack cantrip using blade singer's Extra Attack, Bonus Action: Blade Song
-This sets you up to 18+ armor class, +8 or higher to hit, 1d6+4 subtracted from damage up to 4 times...

Round 2: Action Attack + Cantrip, Haste Action: Attack as Cantrip, Bonus Action: Eldritch Cannon
Damage Options
-2 x Acid Splash + Crossbow + Force Ballista: Up to 15d6+2 if you have 2 suitable targets...
-2 x Firebolt + Crossbow + Force Ballista: 6d10 + 3d6 + 2 if attacking a suitable single target...
-2 x Thorn Whip + Crossbow +  Force Ballista: 9d6+ 2, only useful if a creature is resistant to the other damage types.

Combat at level 15:
Round 2: 2d8 damage to each of those attack patterns...



*Spoiler: Armorer Version*
Show


Variant Human: Dual Wielder, Bladesinger Wizard: 6, Psi Warrior: Fighter 3 / Artillerist: Artificer 3
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 10

Proficiencies: Arcana, Investigation, Perception, Stealth, Performance; Homemade: Navigator's tools, Vehicles Land (Stealth, & Perception.)
Cantrips: Acid Splash, Fire Bolt, Mending, Booming Blade
Wizard 2: Training in War & Song, Blade Song
Wizard 4: Intelligence +2 either works...
Wizard 6: Extra Attack (note The 2nd part is very important!)

Fighter 1: Fighting Style: Defense, Second Wind
Fighter 2: (Action Surge 1/short rest)
Fighter 3: (Psionic Power 4d6; Protective Field; Psionic Strike; Telekinetic Movement)

Artificer 1: Guidance & Thorn Whip; (Thieves' Tools & Tinker's Tools proficiency; Spellcasting; Magical Tinkering)
Artificer 2: Enhanced Defense & Enhanced Arcane Focus & Mind Sharpener & Replicate Magic Item
Artificer 3: Armorer with Inflitrator style power armor...

Benefits: This version would switch over to using its lighting launchers, increases your armor class even further and is much stealthier allowing for ambush haste casting, and have ridiculous movement speed for a human at 45' per movement action or 90 with Haste!  This also lets you to be even more SAD favoring intelligence.

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## aadu

The Celestial Generalist might be my favorite DnD build ever.

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## Poe

> *Crystal-Covered Crusher*
> 
> 
> The basic idea here is simple, a Psi Warrior who uses an Artificer dip to become Int-SAD, with Lightning Launcher as its main weapon. You can have a pretty good AC (20 or 21) without tanking your Stealth skill (plate armor, shield, Enhanced Defense infusion). I'm not counting on the Customizing Your Origin rules being in play (and I don't like the ability-score-swapping option), but if these rules are fair game, the Hobgoblin proficiency features become three tool proficiencies of your choice; very flavorful!


Have you tried this character yet at lower levels? I am pondering making a warforged psi-warrior/artificer battlesmith, but am wondering if it'll be worth it. I figure battlesmith because it allows him to use his intelligence for all weapons with an infusion, it allows him to boost his AC (warforged and infusions), and is able to do considerably more damage than with the armourer weapons. I'm trying to make him a front line warrior, and he's meant to be protecting one of the PCs, so I love the idea that I can hurl the PC out of harm's way whenever I like!

Any thoughts? :)

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## Draz74

> Have you tried this character yet at lower levels?


I haven't, and I do worry that it's the type of build that only "gets going" in the mid-levels.

To play at low levels, might need to sacrifice some other ability scores to get better Dex.

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## Klorox

> *Crystal-Covered Crusher*
> 
> 
> The basic idea here is simple, a Psi Warrior who uses an Artificer dip to become Int-SAD, with Lightning Launcher as its main weapon. You can have a pretty good AC (20 or 21) without tanking your Stealth skill (plate armor, shield, Enhanced Defense infusion). I'm not counting on the Customizing Your Origin rules being in play (and I don't like the ability-score-swapping option), but if these rules are fair game, the Hobgoblin proficiency features become three tool proficiencies of your choice; very flavorful!
> 
> *Hobgoblin, Inheritor, Psi Warrior Fighter 17 / Armorer Artificer 3* 
> *Str* 10, *Dex* 14, *Con* 14, *Int* 16, *Wis* 11, *Cha* 10
> *Proficiencies:* Athletics, Survival, Arcana, Stealth; _customized origin variant:_ three Tools of your choice. 
> Fighter: Archery fighting style; (Second Wind)Fighter: (Action Surge 1/short rest)Fighter: (Psionic Power 4d6; Protective Field; Psionic Strike; Telekinetic Movement)Fighter: Fey Touched feat - boost Int +1 - _gift of alacrity & misty step_Fighter: (Extra Attack 1; Psionic Power 6d8)Artificer: _guidance & thorn whip_; (Thieves' Tools & Tinker's Tools proficiency; Spellcasting; Magical Tinkering)Artificer: Enhanced Defense & Homunculus Servant & Mind Sharpener & Replicate Magic Item: Sending Stones infusions; (Infuse Item)Artificer: Armor Model - Infiltrator; (Armorer Spells - _magic missile & thunderwave_; Smith's Tools proficiency; Arcane Armor; The Right Tool for the Job)Fighter: Skill Expert feat - boost Int +1 - History proficiency - Arcana expertise; (Psionic Power 8d8)Fighter: (Psi-Powered Leap; Telekinetic Thrust)Fighter: boost Int +2Fighter: (Indomitable 1/long rest)Fighter: (Guarded Mind; Psionic Power 10d8)Fighter: (Extra Attack 2; Psionic Power 10d10)Fighter: Sharpshooter featFighter: (Indomitable 2/long rest)Fighter: Resilient feat - boost Wis +1; (Psionic Power 12d10)Fighter: (Bulwark of Force)Fighter: Lucky featFighter: (Action Surge 2/short rest; Indomitable 3/long rest; Psionic Power 12d12)
> ...


So, if the ability score swaps are in play, what race becomes optimal here?  I do like the idea.

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## bendking

> *Build 7:  Hobgoblin Iron Wizard*


Alright, so this one is gonna be a bit of a rip-off.

*Hobgoblin Steel Sorcerer*



TCE's ASI rules make Hobgoblin a good pick for Sorcerers now, and the Clockwork Soul gets access to both Armor of Agathys and Bastion of Law which lets him get more use out of his AoA.
On top of that, he gets access to an _insane_ spell list and the ever-powerful (busted) Wall of Force. This is meaningful because (opinion alert), access to Wall of Force usually puts Wizards above Sorcerers in power level, but this Sorcerer lets us remain on par for a few more levels against a Wizard in our party (until they get access to shenanigans like Contingency, Simulacrum, and so on). Overall, this is one hell of a tanky caster, with some great Metamagic shenanigans thrown in to support the tank playstyle like Careful Hypnotic Pattern, Quickened Vampiric Touch, and more.

*Stats*
Race: Hobgoblin (+1 CON, +2 CHA)
Classes: Clockwork Soul Sorcerer 20
Stats (Point Buy): 8 STR / 15 DEX / 16 CON / 8 INT / 8 WIS / 17 CHA
ASIs: Moderately Armored (+1 DEX), Fey Touched (+1 CHA | Misty Step, Bless), +2 CHA, Warcaster, Resilient (WIS)
Progression: Sorcerer 20

Metamagics: Careful, Quickened, [10th Sorcerer - Transumted Spell)

*Spell Progression*

Cantrips
Booming Blade, Blade Ward, Mind Sliver, Firebolt [Minor Illusion, Chill Touch]

Spells
1 -  Sleep, Shield [Armor of Agathys, Protection from Evil and Good]
2 -  Sleep, Shield, Grease [Armor of Agathys, Absorb Elements]
3 -  Sleep, Shield, Grease | Web [Armor of Agathys, Absorb Elements | Aid, Earthen Grasp]
4 -  Sleep, Shield, Grease | Web, Blur [Armor of Agathys, Absorb Elements | Aid, Earthen Grasp]
5 -  Shield, Grease | Web, Blur | Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball [Armor of Agathys, Absorb Elements | Aid, Earthen Grasp | Counterspell, Dispel Magic]
6 - Shield | Web, Blur | Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Vampiric Touch, X [Armor of Agathys, Absorb Elements | Aid, Earthen Grasp | Counterspell, Dispel Magic]
7 - Shield | Web, Blur | Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Vampiric Touch | Sickening Radiance, Dimension Door [Armor of Agathys, Absorb Elements | Aid, Earthen Grasp, Counterspell, Dispel Magic | Polymorph, Stone Shape]
8 - Shield (FT: Bane) | Web, Blur, (FT: Misty Step) | Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Counterspell, Blink | Sickening Radiance, Dimension Door [Armor of Agathys, Absorb Elements | Aid, Earthen Grasp | Counterspell, Dispel Magic | Polymorph, Stone Shape]
9 - Shield (FT: Bane) | Web, Blur (FT: Misty Step) | Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Counterspell | Sickening Radiance, Dimension Door | Telekinesis, [Armor of Agathys, Absorb Elements | Aid, Earthen Grasp | Counterspell, Dispel Magic | Polymorph, Stone Shape | Wall of Force, Animate Objects]
10- Shield (FT: Bane) | Web, Blur (FT: Misty Step) | Hypnotic Pattern, Tidal Wave, Counterspell | Sickening Radiance, Dimension Door | Telekinesis, Synaptic Static [Armor of Agathys, Absorb Elements | Aid, Earthen Grasp | Counterspell, Dispel Magic | Polymorph, Stone Shape | Wall of Force, Animate Objects]

*Highlights*
1. Armor of Agathys + Bastion of Law lets us deal a _lot_ of damage to whoever dares attack us. Combined with Quickened Blade Ward we can squeeze a lot of value from AoA.
2. Quickened Spell is the bomb on this build. Let me explain. Vampiric Touch is rad - it lets us stay on the battlefield that much longer by stealing the life of our enemies. Quickened takes this spell to a whole other level. If you Quicken it you get two channels in a turn, and on subsequent turns, you can keep channeling it while Quickening other spells (Blade Ward, Armor of Agathys, and Blink are great non-concentration spells for this spot). Other amazing Quickened candidates are Earthen Grasp and Telekinesis.
3. We wouldn't be much of a tank if we didn't have battlefield control. Careful Spell takes care of that. Careful Hypnotic Pattern, Careful Sickening Radiance, and even Careful Web (if your DM isn't a JC fan) all provide unparalleled battlefield control.
4. Synaptic Static + Bane is awesome. Bane helps us keep Synaptic Static on our enemies, causing enemies to potentially reduce 1d6 + 1d4 from their attack rolls. Also, we got Mind Sliver up in this party as well.
5. Fantastic AC. Moderately Armored puts us at a cool 19 AC while wielding a shield. And of course, Shield to put us at 24 AC when needed.

Notes:
1. I would have liked Extended on this list to abuse Aid, but we just don't have enough metamagic known.
2. Blink is a flex spell. It isn't terribly synergistic with AoA, and is a bit counter to the whole point of drawing attention from your allies, but it can still come in handy. Still, feel free to change it to whatever you like.

Variants:
1. You can take a dip of Life Cleric for ultimate hilarity with Vampiric Touch. This would also mean you don't need Hobgoblin or Moderately Armored, and could possibly take V.Human/Custom Lineage for Metamagic Adept, but then the spell list would probably change drastically.
2. You can take Bless instead of Bane, I just found the idea of reducing -1d6-1d4 from attacks and other checks to be funny (and highly effective).

----------


## Gignere

> Alright, so this one is gonna be a bit of a rip-off.
> 
> *Hobgoblin Steel Sorcerer*
> 
> 
> 
> TCE's ASI rules make Hobgoblin a good pick for Sorcerers now, and the Clockwork Soul gets access to both Armor of Agathys and Bastion of Law which lets him get more use out of his AoA.
> On top of that, he gets access to an _insane_ spell list and the ever-powerful (busted) Wall of Force. This is meaningful because (opinion alert), access to Wall of Force usually puts Wizards above Sorcerers in power level, but this Sorcerer lets us remain on par for a few more levels against a Wizard in our party (until they get access to shenanigans like Contingency, Simulacrum, and so on). Overall, this is one hell of a tanky caster, with some great Metamagic shenanigans thrown in to support the tank playstyle like Careful Hypnotic Pattern, Quickened Vampiric Touch, and more.
> 
> ...


I like this concept and may well be my next character to play, I would probably skip mage armor as a spell known entirely, use rolled wealth and nab leather or studded leather if we roll high enough. Personally I am going to find some way to fit in meta magic Adept just to get twin and one other meta magic. Well done.

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## bendking

> I like this concept and may well be my next character to play, I would probably skip mage armor as a spell known entirely, use rolled wealth and nab leather or studded leather if we roll high enough. Personally I am going to find some way to fit in meta magic Adept just to get twin and one other meta magic. Well done.


Good point, I'll switch it. And thank you :)

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## Gignere

> Good point, I'll switch it. And thank you :)


I know its probably a little cliche this also screams out for a hexblade dip. I might even go as far as going vhuman/custom with resilient con and dip hexblade.

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## bendking

> I know its probably a little cliche this also screams out for a hexblade dip. I might even go as far as going vhuman/custom with resilient con and dip hexblade.


Personally, I would take a level of Sorcerer first to save the feat for something else. You don't gain much from taking Hexblade first, since the armor and shield proficiency is a subclass feature.
I would then use my bonus feat for Metamagic Adept (Twinned, Subtle) and make room for Suggestion, Greater Invisibility, and possibly Haste in this list, and probably some other stuff. I might even take Warcaster at 4th level for this variant.

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## maxwell_wolfen

While Clockwork Sorcerer is a very good subclass...i believe Aberrant mind is a few lightyears ahead in terms of versatility and by extension in power. 
I wish someone could make an optimized build here with the Aberrant mind subclass...

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## Mitchellnotes

> While Clockwork Sorcerer is a very good subclass...i believe Aberrant mind is a few lightyears ahead in terms of versatility and by extension in power. 
> I wish someone could make an optimized build here with the Aberrant mind subclass...


While i don't have full builds ready, aberrent seems to multiclass well with cleric, order would be a good choice for the extra reactions. Pick up mind sliver with twinned and quickened metamagic. Twin buffs, or use quickened in conjunction with mindsliver as a debuff for your nice debuffs or control magic. You could also buff allies in a pinch, and give a good reaction as well.

Alternatively, you could go arcane trickster 9/aberrent 11 for magical ambush with the awesome subtles from aberrent (but it's a long way to go to make this happen)

As another build idea from tashas, unity cleric 1, eloquence bard. The unity cleric buff stacks with blesd plus you get amazing use out of bardic inspiration. Be the best buffer in the world!

----------


## maxwell_wolfen

> While i don't have full builds ready, aberrent seems to multiclass well with cleric, order would be a good choice for the extra reactions. Pick up mind sliver with twinned and quickened metamagic. Twin buffs, or use quickened in conjunction with mindsliver as a debuff for your nice debuffs or control magic. You could also buff allies in a pinch, and give a good reaction as well.
> 
> Alternatively, you could go arcane trickster 9/aberrent 11 for magical ambush with the awesome subtles from aberrent (but it's a long way to go to make this happen)
> 
> As another build idea from tashas, unity cleric 1, eloquence bard. The unity cleric buff stacks with blesd plus you get amazing use out of bardic inspiration. Be the best buffer in the world!


i recently came up with a build but with hexblade dip for a campaign. But i would love to try aberrant mind with a cleric dip, yeah i dont have that eldritch blast dpr but in terms of utility and buffs its superior to that of hexblade. Also there is the possibility of heavy armor prof..or go tempest in order to maximize damage once per short rest combined with transmuted spell metamagic. yikes!!!

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## Mitchellnotes

> i recently came up with a build but with hexblade dip for a campaign. But i would love to try aberrant mind with a cleric dip, yeah i dont have that eldritch blast dpr but in terms of utility and buffs its superior to that of hexblade. Also there is the possibility of heavy armor prof..or go tempest in order to maximize damage once per short rest combined with transmuted spell metamagic. yikes!!!


I'm honestly having a hard time not thinking of going Unity 1 as a dip for most full casters. The only tging that holds bless back is that eventually there are things that become better uses of concentration. A class resource based just on prof. bonus that does basically bless while also stacking with bless? Yikes! That 1d4 maintains relevency regardless of level, and that you csn just tack it on is sooo nice. Lots of other dips give you something nice, but that ability becomes an amazing "round two" ability that doesnt use any other resources.

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## maxwell_wolfen

> I'm honestly having a hard time not thinking of going Unity 1 as a dip for most full casters. The only tging that holds bless back is that eventually there are things that become better uses of concentration. A class resource based just on prof. bonus that does basically bless while also stacking with bless? Yikes! That 1d4 maintains relevency regardless of level, and that you csn just tack it on is sooo nice. Lots of other dips give you something nice, but that ability becomes an amazing "round two" ability that doesnt use any other resources.


thats a good reason to go divine sorcerer then. I agree that its usefulness is top notch, but in my personal opinion everything depends on the playstyle that strikes your fancy, either that is RP either its powergaming etc. For me for example, sorcerers always made a good pair with warlocks because that eldrich blast/agonizing blast quicken spam is one of the best dpr available. So i would always have a hard time to avoid taking that road with the sorcerer. I love bless and thats why one of my favorite builds was hexblade 2 / divine sorcerer X....

----------


## Darthnazrael

@LudicSavant, you mentioned in another thread that Gunner Samurai are now quite good. I assume that build looks a lot like the Samurai Archer. If so, what all would you change to bring that build to life?

----------


## LudicSavant

> @LudicSavant, you mentioned in another thread that Gunner Samurai are now quite good. I assume that build looks a lot like the Samurai Archer. If so, what all would you change to bring that build to life?


Might look something like this:

Ye olde Sharpshooter Samurai gets a newfangled weapon.

*The Modern Gun-Kata Master*

_Like the ancient kyujutsu master, but with a tanegashima._

*Shadar-Kai Samurai 20*
Starting Point Buy:  17 Dex, 14 or 16 Con, other stats to taste (example:  17 Dex / 14 Con / 14 Wis / 12 Cha / 10 Str / 8 Int)
ASIs:  Sharpshooter, Elven Accuracy, Gunner, Piercer, Fey-Touched (+1 Wis, Hex), Skill Expert (+1 Wis, Athletics Expertise), Alert

This is basically a variant of the Ancient Kyujutsu Master build that takes advantage of the excellent synergy between Elven Accuracy, Samurai, and the new Tasha's feats (Gunner and Piercer).  What makes that synergy so excellent, you ask?

It's because everything about Gunner and Piercer scales better with more attacks, more crit rate, and more accuracy... so basically everything the Samurai Sharpshooter does.  They also synergize very well with each other, because both bullet points of Piercer scales well with a higher damage die size.

So let's talk about _why_ these feats are so good.

*Gunner vs Crossbow Expert*
- Compared to a Hand Crossbow, a musket with Elven Accuracy is dealing about +3.5 average damage per attack (why +3.5 instead of +3?  Because that die is multiplied on crits, and your crit rate is just that high).  With Piercer, this advantage grows even further.  And with a Samurai getting 3-9 attacks, that adds up quick.  

- Gunner gives you the main reason I cared about Crossbow Expert in the previous build:  Being able to fire unimpeded in melee range.  This is not only good for ensuring that enemy melee foes can't muck you up, but also for allowing you to do take full advantage of prone or paralyzed foes.

- It's only half a feat!  Which means you get to take it _and_ Piercer for the same cost as Crossbow Expert and +2 Dex. 

*Piercer*
- Piercer's first bullet point is mathematically really complex to give an _exact_ figure for how much extra DPR it adds.  Why's it so complex to calculate?  Because of the element of player choice.  If it you were rolling only one d12 damage die, it'd be very simple:  Your average damage for that d12 goes from 6.5 to 8, for a gain of 1.5 damage.  But you're not rolling only one d12 damage die, are you?  You are rolling 3-9 attacks, and each attack has 1-3 damage dice (depending on whether you crit or not).  Each time you have a below-average roll, you have to calculate the probability that one of your _future_ rolls during the turn will be even lower in order to determine whether (from a standpoint of perfect optimization) you should reroll right now.

You can do that, but it's a complicated recursive algorithm that I won't get into just now (maybe later).  The short version is that it's worth 1.5 average damage at a single d12 rolled, and approaches 5.5 average damage as the number of damage die rolls approaches infinity (where the chance of getting to reroll a 1 approaches 100%).

- Piercer's second bullet point is considerably simpler to calculate; it's the exact same formula as Brutal Criticals (see my DPR calculator).  With a 14.2625% crit rate (from Elven Accuracy), you can think of it as 0.9270625 damage per attack (plus a little more, because of the synergy with the first bullet point).  

- So (with Gunner and Elven Accuracy) about +1 damage per attack, plus somewhere between 1.5 and 5.5 damage per turn on top of that (depending on your accuracy, number of attacks, etc).

- It, too, is but half a feat.  Between this and Piercer, you're basically getting the damage of Crossbow Expert's bonus action... without using a bonus action.  Which gives us more space for things like Shadar-Kai teleportation, Misty Step, Hex, Second Wind, whatever.

___

There is one hiccup I have with this, and that's the fact that the fact that at 8-11, the original build will be ahead on Dexterity (with 20 instead of 19).  But at every point after that it's a fairly considerable damage bump to an already highly damaging build.

After we finish off our damage feats (the better to shoot people in the face), we take Alert so that we can shoot people in the face with Fighting Spirit before they get to take a turn, every single combat of the day (since we have at least 1 Fighting Spirit per combat at that point).  And we take Fey Touched so that we can shoot people in the face even harder with Hex and give our foe Disadvantage against being grappled/shoved by our teammates (the better to shoot them in the face point blank with triple advantage), and teleport even more often with Misty Step.  And we take Skill Expert (Athletics) so that we can use one of our many, many attacks, combined with the Disadvantage to Strength checks provided by Hex, to shove someone prone and then point blank shoot them in the face even when we're not using Fighting Spirit (and also turn that +1 Wis we got from Fey-Touched into an even +2 Wis).  Or just help us climb to a nice sniper perch.

___

*Variants/Notes:*
- You have a lot of leeway to switch up the last three feats.  Skill Expert is just one of many possible paths you can take to get Advantage more often, and I would generally switch paths depending on my party's strategy.  For example, if they're fond of vision blockers, consider picking up Fighting Initiate (Blind-Fighting) or Devil's Sight (heck, you could even be a Drow or Half-Drow and cast Darkness yourself).  And of course familiar help from Ritual Caster works as well as it did for the first Samurai build I posted, and doesn't require you to be anywhere near the fight.  Or if your party is just reliably good at triggering Rapid Attack for you, just grab Fey Touched (Gift of Alacrity) and/or Alert immediately.  Speaking of which...
- Instead of Hex, you could take Gift of Alacrity with Fey Touched, which is kind of insane since it's practically like giving someone the initiative bonus of Alert for 8 hours.  Except... it stacks with Alert.  You can take both and waste enemies before they get a turn.
- Skill Expertise could just as easily be Persuasion (the Samurai bonus _stacks_ with Expertise) or Stealth (especially if the rest of the party is also stealthy and/or you want to get Surprise).
- Everything I said about non-Tasha's feat choices in the Kyujutsu Master build still applies.



How's that look?

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## Klorox

> Might look something like this:
> 
> Ye olde Sharpshooter Samurai gets a newfangled weapon.
> 
> *The Modern Gun-Kata Master*
> 
> _Like the ancient kyujutsu master, but with a tanegashima._
> 
> *Shadar-Kai Samurai 20*
> ...


This is just awesome.  I love it.

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## Nod_Hero

> Might look something like this:
> 
> Ye olde Sharpshooter Samurai gets a newfangled weapon.
> 
> *The Modern Gun-Kata Master*
> 
> How's that look?

----------


## CMCC

I worry a bit about the primary four feats in that build. You dont come online until 12 and you dont even get gunner until 8. 

If you go with one of the feat races, you lose eleven accuracy but come fully online at 6. Definitely weaker post lvl 11, but you have gunner, sharpshooter, and piercer by 6, which should feel awesome.

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## Gignere

> I worry a bit about the primary four feats in that build. You dont come online until 12 and you dont even get gunner until 8. 
> 
> If you go with one of the feat races, you lose eleven accuracy but come fully online at 6. Definitely weaker post lvl 11, but you have gunner, sharpshooter, and piercer by 6, which should feel awesome.


I tried building one and I think it works better if you get gunner at 4 so once extra attack comes on at 5 you can just keep shooting with musket. Elven Accuracy at 6 and SS at 8. Piercer is nice to have but I think that can come later.

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## LudicSavant

> I worry a bit about the primary four feats in that build. You dont come online until 12 and you dont even get gunner until 8. 
> 
> If you go with one of the feat races, you lose eleven accuracy but come fully online at 6. Definitely weaker post lvl 11, but you have gunner, sharpshooter, and piercer by 6, which should feel awesome.


I wouldn't say that you're "not online until 12."  I mean, would you say a level 4 Shadar-Kai with Archery and Sharpshooter is "offline"?  Just because you can stack on more things later doesn't mean that the combo you have right then isn't good.

A level 6 VHuman is going to have the same Dex and Sharpshooter as the Shadar-Kai, but trade in Elven Accuracy and great Shadar-Kai racial features for Piercer+Gunner.  Those _both_ look like good characters to me.  

That said, with Custom Lineage, you have the option of sneaking in a 3rd half-feat at 8, picking an alternative to Elven Accuracy.  This presents a few interesting opportunities.

Skill Expert:  Make yourself a party face, scout/ambusher, or shover.
Athlete:  People tend to overlook this half-feat because they mostly just think of the 'stand up from prone' line in terms of responding to an enemy knocking you prone.  But what if you do it yourself?  You can run up walls with the climb speed and then drop prone, kiting melee foes and inflicting Disadvantage on ranged foes.
Res(Dex):  Since you don't need to take Res(Wis) as a Samurai, you can just grab proficiency in all 3 main saving throws.

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## Mitchellnotes

I wanted to do something with the Rune Knight and I think I found a build I like! I didn't see much else rune knight wise, but apologize if others were thinking along a similar line...

The Rune Knight Bully

Mountain Dwarf Rune Knight 20
Point buy starting stats: Str: 17 (15+2) Dex: 10  Con: 17 (15+2) Int: 10 Wis: 14 Cha: 8
ASIs: Great Weapon Master, Skill expert (con+1, Athletics expertise), Slasher (str +1), Polearm master, Str +2, Con +2, Res Wis?

Rune choices: Frost, Stone, (at 7th, drop Stone for Hill, and also pick up Storm), Stone, Cloud

Use Glaive for the reach with slashing, and use heavy armor

This build utilizes the synergy in the rune knight between Giant's Might with shoving prone, and shoving prone with slasher. Giant's might gives advantage on athletics checks to shove prone, and because it increases a character's size, means that there would be few enemies who this strategy wouldn't work on. Once prone, you also can attack with advantage, making GWM hits easier to make.

Additionally, slasher reduces movement speed by 10. So once an enemy is prone, they spend half of their movement standing up, and have 10 less movement to use to move away. For an enemy with 30 speed, this means that they would only be able to move 5', still potentially within threat range.

Additionally, later on, Giant's might Also increases your reach, which means that you have a huge area that you can threaten with polearm mastery, and again, inflict the slasher -10 feet penalty (as it is once per turn). This may be annoying once you have an enemy within reach, but as a rune knight, you have so many things that you can do with your reaction, losing out on opportunity attacks isn't the worse thing in the world.

Rune Knights do have a lot of competition for bonus actions and reactions, so polearm mastery bonus attacks can be nice when you don't have anything else to use your bonus action on, but are likely more for the option than something to do every single round.

Runes have some flexibility, and all are really nice. Given the shoving actions, prioritized frost (though there may come a point where the extra bonus isn't as needed). Storm and Hill are great, and since you have good Con, you can also make good use of Stone and/or Fire (Stone was prioritized as the effect seems a little better overall, though the damage early on with Fire is a nice rider). Honestly, there really isn't a bad option.

This character can be a tactical powerhouse, knocking multiple enemies prone, locking people down, doing damage, and protecting teammates. It also comes online fairly early (feats could also be moved around depending upon your specific priority), but with GWM, expertise, and slasher, you'd have 18's in both Str and Con and have the most relevant feats online by level 8.

----------


## RingoBongo

I have been looking hard at rogue synergy with champion, especially with new rogue feature steady aim available. It seems that with this feature + magic initiate find familiar we can reasonably squeeze 2 attacks with advantage and even with a 19-20 crit range. Is it possible that this set up can compete with the samurai archer for dpr? Of course taking similar feats (ss, eleven accuracy, piercer, etc...)

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## Gignere

> I have been looking hard at rogue synergy with champion, especially with new rogue feature steady aim available. It seems that with this feature + magic initiate find familiar we can reasonably squeeze 2 attacks with advantage and even with a 19-20 crit range. Is it possible that this set up can compete with the samurai archer for dpr? Of course taking similar feats (ss, eleven accuracy, piercer, etc...)


You can save a feat if you go arcane trickster.

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## Klorox

I can really see that samurai gunslinger working for a mandalorian (like, the main character on the tv show) build.

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## bendking

Alright, here's a new one. I will only be updating this post on my own thread for the sake of not keeping the posts synchronous every time I make a change.

*Psychic Master*



I've seen numerous people asking for an Aberrant Mind build/guide, so I decided to step up to the plate. However, I usually try to make my builds capitalize on the strengths of a certain mechanic and theme, instead of being just generally strong.
In this case, I'll be making the Aberrant Mind the ultimate social manipulator, capable of destroying nations in a heartbeat and no consequences for him, while not forgoing combat effectiveness.

*Stats*
Race: Custom Lineage (+2 CHA, Actor)
Classes: Aberrant Mind Sorcerer 20
Stats (Point Buy): 8 STR / 14 DEX / 14 CON / 8 INT / 12 WIS / 18 CHA
ASIs: Fey Touched (+1 CHA, Gift of Alacrity), Skill Expert (+1 CHA, Deception), Resilient (WIS), Eldritch Adept: Mask of Many Faces, X
Metamagics: Careful, Subtle, [10th Sorcerer - Quickened Spell)

Starting with 18 CHA is always great. The downside is starting with 14 DEX / 14 CON, but it's worth it. This will allow our CHA progression to be on-time as we take Skill Expert and Fey Touched to make ourselves even better at cajoling our way through life.
Fey Touched gives us Misty Step for when we're in a bind, and Gift of Alacrity is an incredibly potent spell.

*Spell Progression*
As opposed to the Clockwork Soul we can't get two of the three 1st level spell taxes (Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements) as a part of our bonus spell list, but that's just how it is.

Cantrips
Fire Bolt, Mind Sliver, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth [Prestidigitation, Chill Touch]

Spells
1 - Mage Armor, Shield, [Sleep, Dissonant Whispers]
2 - Mage Armor, Shield, Disguise Self [Sleep, Dissonant Whispers]
3 - Mage Armor, Shield, Disguise Self | Phantasmal Force [Sleep, Dissonant Whispers, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion]
4 - Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Disguise Self | Phantasmal Force [Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion]
5 - Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Disguise Self | - | Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball [Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, Hunger of Hadar, Clairvoyance]
6 - Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Disguise Self | - | Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Counterspell [Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, Hunger of Hadar, Clairvoyance]
7 - Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Disguise Self | - | Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Counterspell | Sickening Radiance, [Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, Hunger of Hadar, Clairvoyance, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster]
8 - Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Disguise Self | - | Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Counterspell | Sickening Radiance, Dimension Door [Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, Hunger of Hadar, Clairvoyance, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster]
9 - Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Disguise Self | - | Hypnotic Pattern, Tidal Wave, Counterspell | Sickening Radiance, Dimension Door | Synaptic Static [Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, Hunger of Hadar, Clairvoyance, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Modify Memory, Telekinesis]
10- Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Disguise Self | - | Hypnotic Pattern, Tidal Wave, Counterspell | Sickening Radiance, Dimension Door | Synaptic Static, Animate Objects [Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, Hunger of Hadar, Clairvoyance, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Modify Memory, Telekinesis]

*Highlights*
1. Disguise Self in concert with Actor is going to be extremely useful in deception and manipulation. Just imagine the possibilities.
You can even use it while hiding behind cover in combat: appear a few inches shorter, and use that to peek above the cover you're using to be able to Counterspell even while in full-cover. You can also create your own cover for ambushes with Mold Earth (thanks to TheUser for this trick).
2. Careful Spell pulls its weight. Careful Hypnotic Pattern is your bread and butter in combat. Hypnotic Pattern is a bit of an overtuned spell, and being able to cast it on your allies without repercussions is great. For Charmed immune enemies, you have Careful Sickening Radiance or Hunger of Hadar and Black Tentacles. 
3. You can cast Suggestion without _any_ verbal, somatic, or even material components using Psionic Sorcery. This is an upgrade over Subtle Spell, which still requires material components and thus can still give you away. Casting Suggestion completely unnoticed is one hell of a trick.
4. Completely subtle _Modify Memory_. Mother of God. This is the big one. In conjunction with Telepathic Speech (which will allow you to speak to the target without talking out loud), you can literally walk up to anyone, and plant/erase any memory you like. This is how nations are unmade. Play out your wildest Inception dreams.
5. A plethora of ways to screw with people. Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Detect Thoughts, Telekinesis... What more could you ask for?

Notes:
1. Make sure to take Disguise Kit as one of your proficiencies.
2. You can replace Detect Thoughts with Calm Emotions. One is better for social manipulation, the other for combat.

Variants:
1. If you don't care about social manipulation, Goblin is a fantastic choice for almost any caster. Bonus Action Hide every turn to keep yourself hidden while manipulating the battlefield is highly effective. The reasons I didn't go with Goblin are that being small and a Goblin are going to be obstacles to social engineering.
2. By the same token, Skill Expert (Deception) isn't absolutely mandatory either. You could simply take +2 CHA instead of Skill Expert and Fey Touched.
3. Finally, you can instead start with Half-Elf if you're concerned about starting with 16 DEX and 16 CON, but you would be forgoing Fey Touched and Skill Expert in return, and dumping WIS.

This build was posted on the 4th of January, 2021

----------


## Sol0botmate

@BendKing Rune Knight build with Simic Hybrid got me into a lot of thinking about grappling RK. However Symic Hybrid is sub-optimal race in my opinion due to tons of stuff that messes combos up: like havin to use whole action to use their additional "arms" to attack something, and only THEN using Bonus Action to grapple something. Considering that Bonus Action is quite busy with RK I didn't like this.

@Benny89 posted some RK build using Sharpshooter using Darts, using Grappler feat for advantage generation with Grappling. Fun stuff but again - it wasn't optimal for me and it required taking feat (XBE/Gunner) that  is pretty much wasted in my opinion.

However - both gave me idea and clues of how to make it work with different race so kudos to them for giving me whole idea :). So... I went through races and found combo that gets best of both.

*"The Trunk Tank"*



*Race*: Loxodon! 
*Class*: 1 Peace Cleric/Rune Knight 19
*Attributes (Tank Version)*: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 17, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 8
*Attributes (Heavy Damage Version)*: STR 17, DEX 10, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 8.
*ASI (Tank Version)*: Skill Expert (Athletics) +1 CON, +2 CON, +2 STR, +2 STR, Lucky, "Open Slot" 
*ASI (Heavy Damage Version)*:  Skill Expert (Athletics) +1 STR, Grappler (*optional, skip if you don't like!*), GWM, +2 STR, +2 CON, +2 CON, Lucky
Fighting Style: BLIND FIGHTING or Defense

*Class Progression:*

Rune Knight 5/1 Peace Cleric for CON save to keep Bless or Shield of Faith up and get Heavy Armor. Then continue with Rune Knight. I think level 5 is best level for dip because it's just after ASI and with Skill Expert you can already do Shove->Grapple with Trunk with Extra Attack and already use your Cleric Bond and spells. After that every level is something nice, another ASI, 7th level Runes, 8th level another ASI. All good stuff.

*Loxodon has advantage on saving throws against being charmed or frightened*. With Loxodon advantage + 14 WIS + Storm Rune + Emboldening Bond + potentially Bless + Lucky + Indomitable we already have good arsenal to protect our martial mind. But let's not forger Shield of Faith +2 AC for 10 minutes. Especially great for our GWM version to bumb it's sub optimal AC. Choice is yours. 2/Long Rest Bless/Shielf of Faith combined with Bond is also a very strong combo, especially if your table do 2-4 encounters per adventure day. Bless also supports your team!

*Build Highlights:*

Thanks to *Blind Fighting* we also have 10 feet Blindsight so we can

1. "See" in both darkness and magical darkness in 10 feet range, which means our attacks won't be affected in any negative way.
2. We can't be blinded
3. We can fight invisible creatures without any issues, which helps a lot with both attacking and grappling them without disadvantage.

But since *Stone Rune will give us 120 feet Darkvision later  you can go Defense +1 AC instead*. But I think Blind Fighting is worth considering.


Thanks to *Emboldening Bon*d, which scales with our proficiency, we also can give our selfs 10 minutes buff that will give us once per turn extra d4 to either: ability check (Grapple!), attack (GWM!) or saving throw (always good!). As Cleric we also know Guidance cantrip which will add another d4 to our next skill check (Grapple!). Or we can use Bless, which also stacks with Bond so one attack will have 2d4 to hit per turn!

Now as *Loxodon we have trunk*. And that trunk is a terrifying weapon! We can use it to grapple someone in 5 feet range. Which means we have both of our hands free. Which will allow us to use them to wield Heavy weapon and benefit from GWM or wield both weapon and shield to still benefit from higher AC. You can also grapple 3 targets if you want with GWM version or 2 with Tank version (as shield requires action to drop)

*Grappler feat* gives us advantage on attacks vs creature that is grappled by us. Therefore - we can grapple boss/enemy with trunk and attack him with advantage using GWM + Emboldening Bond extra d4 once per turn. We also naturally attack with advatage in magical darkness. You can add Bless with extra d4 on top of that. Even if you won't go GWM route- you will still have advantage on all your attacks vs grappled target. So even with Sword n Shield variant  your DPR will still go up and be solid. The advantage on Sword n Shield is not only higher AC. You can use any magical weapon you will find during your campaign and advantage will always help. But GWM gets most benefit out of advantage. Grappler feat can also use action to pink down enemy and restrain him (and yourself). Very niche, but you could pin down boss and give everyone in your party advantage on hitting him (including range characters unlike shove), so it still can have it's uses.

*Shoving + Grapple instead of Grappler Feat:* Grappler speeds up advantage setup for you but it may not be the best if you try to setup Boss/Enemy for whole team instead of just for yourself. Without feat you do Shove first to get enemy to Prone, then Grapple which blocks him from standing. Of course we do it with  our trunk :) so our hands are free to hold bigger weapon or SnS. Just rembmer that without Grappler you won't be able to do Grapple+Advantage+Fire Rune combo till you are level 12 or you will have to use Action Surge for it. But you can skip Grappler feat. Advantage of Shove + Grapple is that enemy will have disadvantage on attacks vs everyone and your whole team has advantage against that enemy in melee! As you can see there are ways to get same result without it. Then you have faster ASI but you need 2 attacks for full setup vs one. Something for something.

*Instead of Grappler feat*: For Tank Version  you could could maximize STR or CON faster. You can skip Grappler for both builds and focus on CON and STR first. You could also get Alert to boost your initiative so you can start CC faster. There is quite a lot of options here while still getting the core of the build to work!

*Skill Expert* gives us Expertise in Athletics, so double proficiency!

*AC:* Tank Version gives us potentially solid 21 AC with Plate Armor + shield. Heavy Damage version can go up to 19 AC. Obviously one is meant for being mainly tank/control/support while other one heavy damage/control/support mix. *Shield of Faith +2 AC* can boost it up to 23 AC for Tank or 21 AC for Heavy Damage so very very solid. Enemy Big Boss will have hard time with you. You not only grapple him and force him to stand there with you, but you also have advantage on all attacks against him and he will have to go through your high AC + some of your nasty runes like Cloud and Storm + Runic Shield. If you go Shove + Grapple combo then you will also force Boss to have disadvantage on all attacks against everyone! 


*Runes wonders*

Our Runes DC scales with CON so it's important to level up that CON. Tank Version gets 20 CON by level 8 ( level 6 if you skip Grappler feat), giving us max DC for Fire and Stone Rune. Heavy damage will get max CON late at level 12 (level 8 if you skip Grappler).

The Runes that we want the most are:

1. Fire Rune
2. Stone Rune 
3. Storm Rune 
4. Hill Rune
5. Cloud Rune   

Fire Rune gives you CC vs enemy casters. It targets Strength saving throw, something casters tend to have very low. It also restrain them, reducing their speed to 0, giving everyone advantage on attacks against them and giving them disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws. On top of that each turn target suffers 2d6 fire damage if he can't break free. 

Fire Rune takes your attack action and it's best to use it with some range throwing weapon so you can target caster from distance, because usually they are not at front lines.

Stone Rune  when a creature you can see ends its turn within 30 feet of you, you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and force the creature to make a Wisdom saving throw. Unless the save succeeds, the creature is charmed by you for 1 minute. Great vs melee enemies who most likely will have weaker WIS saving throw. It's also great because damage does not end charm effect here! So enemy can still be hacked while dreaming :). Using your reaction. Rune also gives passive advantage on Wisdom (Insight) checks, and you have darkvision out to a range of 120 feet 

Storm Rune -  a God Rune. Using bonus action you give yourself a 1 minute effect during which, using your reactions, you can give enemy disadvantage on attack rolls, saving throws on ability checks. Or give your allies advantage on same things. It's soooo gooood I can't even start! You take it ASAP on level 7 RK! Also it combos well with your Fire and Stone Rune as you can give enemies disadvatage every turn with your reaction to keep them under your Rune effect. Givng your allies advantage on saving throw or attack is also priceless. This Rune also gives you passive advantage on Intelligence (Arcana) checks, and you can't be surprised as long as you aren't incapacitated, which is super good. 

Hill Rune  - for 1 minute as bonus action you get resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage. As passive you also get advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and you have resistance against poison damage, which is good as many monsters have poison or poison attacks.

Cloud Rune  when you or a creature you can see within 30 feet of you is hit by an attack roll, you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and choose a different creature within 30 feet of you, other than the attacker. No more critical hits on allies. Reason we take it as last rune is because it can only redirect one single attack. It becomes much better when we get RK 15th level feature and we can use it twice. Hence why it's best to take it around that level.

*Rune Knight wonders*

*Giant's Might:* 

At 3rd level, you have learned how to imbue yourself with the might of giants. As a bonus action you get: You become Large, along with anything you are wearing. You have advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws.  Once on each of your turns, one of your attacks with a weapon or an unarmed strike can deal an extra 1d6 damage to a target on a hit. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.
With Giant's Might on you can now grapple Huge enemies. Your party Wizard or Sorcerer can also cast Enlarge Reduce on you, making you Huge, which will allow you to grapple Gargantual creatures. Advantage on Strength checks means we can grapple better and extra dmg (scalling up to 1d10) is always nice bonus.

*Runic Shield:*
At 7th level, you learn to invoke your rune magic to protect your allies. When another creature you can see within 60 feet of you is hit by an attack roll, you can use your reaction to force the attacker to reroll the d20 and use the new roll. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.

We can already give allies advantage on saving throws or give enemies disadvantage on attacks. We can redirect deadly/critical hits from our allies to our enemies. On top of that we can force enemy to reroll his hit, which can mitigate critical hit again or even cause enemy to miss. We can do so much as Fighter that my head starts to spin.

*Master of Runes:*
At 15th level, you can invoke each rune you know from your Rune Carver feature twice, rather than once, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a short or long rest.
Now we are talking. Double enemies restrained, double enemies charmed, double damage resistance per short rest, double hit redirecting, double 1 minute Storm Rune God Hood.

*Runic Juggernaut:*
During Giant's Might your size can increase to Huge, and while you are that size, your reach increases by 5 feet. What can I say. Now you grapple with 10 feet reach, attack with 10 feet reach and you can grapple Gargantual enemies. Go and wrestle that Ancient Red Dragon! Chances are low you will ever get here but it's still nice.

*Full CC/Support Potential, aka: Action Overload!*

The amount of bonus actions, actions, reactions you can make as RK is simply staggering. Never more there is nothing you can't do on your turn. But let's take a look at how we can make it all work.
So if we know we are getting into hostile territory  we use our Emboldening Bond on ourselves. We also keep Guidance up or Shield of Faith since it's 10 minutes.

*During combat* 

If we can get close to priority target in first turn:

So first of all as bonus action we use Giant's Might, especially if there is a Big Boss in that fight or very mean melee enemy in general.
With one of our attacks we throw a weapon on enemy caster and activate fire rune on hit. Enemy needs to make a Strength saving throw or be restrained. We can your our bond + d4 to attack here if needed but casters don't usually have very high AC.
With our second attack we use our trunk to grapple biggest/meaniest enemy on battlefield (the Big Boss). We have expertise, advantage, d4 from Bond and potentially extra d4 from Guidance. Let's say we are level 9. That is +11, +2.5, +2.5 and +4.5 from advantage. On average you will get +20.5 to that first roll.
With our reaction we activate Stone Rune and charm another melee goon.

1st Turn Best Case Scenario: one enemy grappled against whom we have advantage on all our attacks till he is dead (or frees himself but good luck with that :D ), one enemy restrained who takes 2d6 dmg per turn if he fails to free himself and one enemy charmed who can still be damaged. Remember that if you grapple creature like Dragon etc. - no fly for them. They bound to stand in front of you, grappled by your trunk and you can just tank them and attack them with advantage. If we did Shove + Grapple then that enemy also has now disadvantage vs everyone and your whole party has advantage against him in melee. All good stuff.

If we don't have Grappler feat then we go with Attack Action shove, then Attack Action Grapple (enemy can't get up), both of course with our trunk and once we are level 12 - our Third attack will go towards Fire Rune or attack if you don't have enemy to target.

With Action Surge we also start doing attacks with advantage vs grappled enemy turn 1.

Once we are level 15 we can also use Fire Rune again with Action Surge. With Grappler feat and level 12 we can go grapple and 2x Fire Runes throw if we want to without using Action Surge.

Next turn we activate our Storm Rune as we can start giving enemies disadvantage on saving throws or giving advantage to our allies or negating critical hits with Runic Shield. If we fight single enemy (The Big Boss) we can use Hill Rune to get resistances to tank him better since he is grappled by us. 

We can of course do it the other way around and start with Storm Rune to give ourselfs advantage on Fire Rune attack or give enemy disadvantage against it. But then we can't use Stone Rune or Giant's Might. But generally use your features according to situation. Maybe your ally already got him by some nasty spell so giving him advantage on his next save seems like good idea. Maybe your ally was already attacked by enemy critical sneak attack so using Runic Shield or Cloud Rune may be better idea first. 

What you have to realize is that you are absolutely Action Packed Hero. You have so many things you can do with your bonus actions, reaction and action that it is no joke. You also have very good DPR (great with GWM) against single target that you grappled. You can potentially grapple up to 3 enemies but I think that is not optimal in most scenarios. You want to grapple and tank the biggest one in the room, giving your self advantage. If you can however combo with your team that uses hazard spells like Spike Growth, Wall of Fire, Moon Beam, Sickening Radiance etc. then grappling 3 targets and keeping them inside hazard might be great idea. Either way you can tank 1 big target, boosting your DPR vs it or grapple multiple targets and drag them into hazard spells. You are very versitile.


*Short Rest and Proficiency Madness + Cantrips*

All your runes refresh on short rest. Which synergizes with 2x Action Surges. Your EMBOLDENING BOND scales with proficiency. Your Runic Shield scales with proficiency. Your Giant's Might uses scales with proficiencies. You have tons of features to use and choose from.

Long Rest spells you have are your Cleric Spells, which are 2/Long Rest.

You also get Cleric Cantrips like Guidance (d4 to grapple!), Toll the Dead and Light.

*To GWM or not to GWM:*

Honestly it depends on your team. If you are the only frontliner in your team then it might be better idea to go Tank Version and focus on CC multiple targets, Big Boss control and using Storm Rune/Bond + Bless to help your allies. A great mix of support/CC and tank. You still get advantage on attacks vs grappled target so if you can get good magical weapon like Flame Tongues etc. then your DPR will still be very solid vs single target. Our DC for Runes will be maxed out much faster here which helps with control. I would actually skip Grappler here

However if your front line is already strong (you have Paladin or Barbarian or Moon Druid or both, or all etc.) it's hard to pass free Advantage on GWM. But since we need to pack our Strength to 20  our DC will drag behind for some tume. Storm Rune can mitigate that in some way but it's still hurts. But when you grapple that enemy with one attack and you can use Action Surge then in 2 turns on level 12 using simple Greatsword +1 you pack a whooping 5x (2d6) + 50 + 25 + 5 + 2d8 damage. Potentially extra attack on bonus action if you crit. If you fight Big Boss then the more fight last- the more damage you will do. If you skip Grappler feat then you can still go shove + grapple with your Trunk so GWM is still open to you.

Also with access to both Bond and Bless you can really mitigate a lot of that -5 to hit. Shield of Faith + Defense style can also get you to nice 21 AC when using GWM, which is very nice. Since you can generate advantage so easy + have bond + maybe Bless up - you could keep STR 18 for longer and rush 20 CON faster if you prefer.

Both versions are very fun to play in my opinion and totally viable.

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## bendking

> @BendKing Rune Knight build with Simic Hybrid got me into a lot of thinking about grappling RK. However Symic Hybrid is sub-optimal race in my opinion due to tons of stuff that messes combos up: like havin to use whole action to use their additional "arms" to attack something, and only THEN using Bonus Action to grapple something. Considering that Bonus Action is quite busy with RK I didn't like this.


While grappling with the extra arms is an entire action, I'm not sure why you think it's an entire action attack with them.
They are simply an extra natural weapon you have that you can mix in with your other weapons when attacking, as per usual when you have multiple weapons, but I'm open to the idea that I'm missing something.

More importantly, though, it does seem as though you can grapple with the trunk in addition to attacking/shoving as a part of your Extra Attack, which is definitely extremely appealing, especially for the Rune Knight.
I'm half the mind to take this race as a pick for my Ruin Knight build, would you mind?

Great job overall, I like it.

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## LudicSavant

> @BendKing Rune Knight build with Simic Hybrid got me into a lot of thinking about grappling RK. However Symic Hybrid is sub-optimal race in my opinion due to tons of stuff that messes combos up: like havin to use whole action to use their additional "arms" to attack something, and only THEN using Bonus Action to grapple something. Considering that Bonus Action is quite busy with RK I didn't like this.


This is hilarious because I was _just_ chatting with BendKing, suggesting a "Nonmedium Elephantman" for a Rune Knight as an alternative to Simic, using similar reasoning to that which you suggest.   :Small Big Grin: 

Why do I call the Loxodon Rune Knight the Nonmedium Elephantman?  Well because I've always made a habit of referring to Loxodons as "mysteriously medium elephantmen" and now they can grow to regular size sometimes!  Hooray!

My first impression of the Rune Knight is that it's really strong.  Runic Shield not only gets quite a few uses, but lets you reroll _after_ seeing the roll, and can negate crits.  Your resources are plentiful, and your runes are more powerful than maneuvers (and, eventually, more plentiful than them too, with a whopping 10 invokes at 15+, on top of your Runic Shield and Giant's Might).  And Peace Cleric is, of course, an excellent dip for just about everything nowadays.

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## Sol0botmate

> I'm half the mind to take this race as a pick for my Ruin Knight build, would you mind?
> 
> Great job overall, I like it.


Sure go ahead. It's best for everyone to improve their builds :)




> This is hilarious because I was _just_ chatting with BendKing, suggesting a "Nonmedium Elephantman" for a Rune Knight as an alternative to Simic, using similar reasoning to that which you suggest.  
> 
> Why do I call the Loxodon Rune Knight the Nonmedium Elephantman?  Well because I've always made a habit of referring to Loxodons as "mysteriously medium elephantmen" and now they can grow to regular size sometimes!  Hooray!
> 
> My first impression of the Rune Knight is that it's really strong.  Runic Shield not only gets quite a few uses, but lets you reroll _after_ seeing the roll, and can negate crits.  Your resources are plentiful, and your runes are more powerful than maneuvers (and, eventually, more plentiful than them too, with a whopping 10 invokes at 15+, on top of your Runic Shield and Giant's Might).  And Peace Cleric is, of course, an excellent dip for just about everything nowadays.


It was a matter of time people will see Loxodon combo :). Loxodons were skipped a lot due to not optimal Attirbutes bonuses but with Tasha it doesn't matter now :).

The other path for this build could be 1 Life/Twilight/Forge etc. Cleric that gives you Heavy Armor + shield and then you can go with Runic Knight. Forge Cleric + Shield of Faith + Defense Style would give GWM version of this build a whooping 22 AC and 24 AC to Tank Version.

Cleric would also give us WIS/CHA saves instead which boost Fighter weakness. But CON save is actually quite good here. But it's worth to mention.

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## Mitchellnotes

@sol0botmate

I like your build! Rune knight just hasn't been getting enough love. I still like the idea of combining slasher with shove prone, though you only get advantage if you are within 5'. It is sticky since many enemies wont be able to move far after standing up. It's also a bit more dependent on turn order (if they stand up right after being shoved prone, allies won't get the benefit). However, starting at level 5, you can shove prone and hit with advantage, and use the fire rune on top of it.

With runes, (and this is more about my post on the bully), i'm going to revise my thoughts and would start with fire and cloud (stone if darkvision is a concern) and at 7 go cloud (unless no darkvision, then id go with stone), hill, and storm. Later picks would be fire then stone. Frost's effect is nice, but is just so limited compared to other choices.

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## Sol0botmate

> @sol0botmate
> 
> I like your build! Rune knight just hasn't been getting enough love. I still like the idea of combining slasher with shove prone, though you only get advantage if you are within 5'. It is sticky since many enemies wont be able to move far after standing up. It's also a bit more dependent on turn order (if they stand up right after being shoved prone, allies won't get the benefit). However, starting at level 5, you can shove prone and hit with advantage, and use the fire rune on top of it.
> 
> With runes, (and this is more about my post on the bully), i'm going to revise my thoughts and would start with fire and cloud (stone if darkvision is a concern) and at 7 go cloud (unless no darkvision, then id go with stone), hill, and storm. Later picks would be fire then stone. Frost's effect is nice, but is just so limited compared to other choices.


Thanks! Rune Knight is the only Fighter that I really really want to play as. I should have new Eberron campaign this year with my DM so I hope I will be able to play Trunk Tank there. In my opinion Rune Knight is first Fighter subclass that allows you to play something different than just "I hit him, then I hit him little bit different, then I hit him with little hidden mechanic". Even EK was all about saving slots for Shadow Blade and Shield, so not much options there too. But RK has so much stuff he can do to change battle that I am really excited to play him! 

And Storm Rune is in my opinion one the strongest features in game currently on part with Paladin Aura. 1 minute of giving enemies disadvantages to saving throws/attacks or giving allies advantages to saving throws/attacks 1/short rest and later 2/short rest is just mind blowing. Finally Fighter has something truly awesome.

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## Mitchellnotes

> Thanks! Rune Knight is the only Fighter that I really really want to play as. I should have new Eberron campaign this year with my DM so I hope I will be able to play Trunk Tank there. In my opinion Rune Knight is first Fighter subclass that allows you to play something different than just "I hit him, then I hit him little bit different, then I hit him with little hidden mechanic". Even EK was all about saving slots for Shadow Blade and Shield, so not much options there too. But RK has so much stuff he can do to change battle that I am really excited to play him! 
> 
> And Storm Rune is in my opinion one the strongest features in game currently on part with Paladin Aura. 1 minute of giving enemies disadvantages to saving throws/attacks or giving allies advantages to saving throws/attacks 1/short rest and later 2/short rest is just mind blowing. Finally Fighter has something truly awesome.


Not to mention that hill rune is essentially "rage light," and with 3 short rests a day, a rune knight can use it almost as much as a barbarian can rage

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## ftafp

The Heavy Artillerist

*Race:* Warforged
*Class:* Artificer 1/Graviturgist 9/Artillerist 3/Graviturgist X
*Stats:* STR 8, DEX 14, CON (13+1), INT (15+2), WIS 10, CHA 12
*Infusions:* Bag of Holding
*ASI:* Fey Touched(Dissonant Whispers, INT +1) @5, INT +2 @9

As subclasses go, the Artillerist is a conundrum. Despite advertising itself as a blasty archetype with many blasty abilities to match, the majority of the Artillerist's cool toys  most notably their flamethrower that serves as an at-will bonus action AoE  are overshadowed by the defensive capabilities of the Protection Turret. This build aims to fix that and bring the Artillerist back to artillery, using a little bit of battlefield control and a lot of flamethrowers.

This starts off slow at level 1 as with most builds. Warforged gets you an extra point of AC. Combined with scale mail and a shield your AC's going to be sitting pretty at 19. Not much to go over here but at this level I advise using magic stone as your cantrip over fire bolt. The damage is just better until you hit level 5. Wizard 1 will give you plenty of nice spells to work with. Shield is always a fan favorite, though you'll get more use out of it at higher levels. What you're going to want to focus on for now is AoE spells. This IS a blaster after all and we're going to be good at it. At Wizard 2 we take Graviturgist, which will open up the dunamancy spell list that offers all those sweet blaster spells, but you won't get you first real taste of power until Wizard 3 where you can take Immovable Object. This a spell with a whole mess of uses thanks to the fact that it can target worn or carried objects, but for us the best use is casting it on our shoes to create Immovable Boots, which we can lock in place at will allowing us concentration-free flight for an hour at the cost of 25 gp. At this level I like spells like Web, Phantasmal Force, Hold Person, Tasha's Mind Whip, Suggestion and Blindness/Deafness but the choice is yours. Wizard 4 will give us dissonant whispers and misty step as well as a free cast of each and an ASI to INT.

Wizard 5 is where things start happening (as they tend to do at level 5). Spells like Fireball and Counterspell open up, but Pulse Wave is great to have, especially if we're above our enemies thanks to our immovable boots. This means your 30-foot cone becomes a 30-foot diameter, and can be used to lift enemies up in the air and then drop them 15-20 feet, dealing fall damage and knocking them prone, which is sweet. Lastly Glyph of Warding is going to reward us handsomely soon enough. At Wizard 6 we get Gravity Well, the best battlefield control ability in the game hands-down. This lets you move every creature you cast a spell on 5 feet as long as they get hit, fail a save or just agree to it. Most of the time you're going to be using this to cluster enemies tightly together so you can keep blasting them, but using it on yourself when you cast shield or absorb elements can also be nice (assuming you're being melee attacked that is). Wizard 7 opens up 4th level spells. Wall of Fire is the one we want most but Gravity Sinkhole, Polymorph, Sickening Radiance and so many others are great additions. Wizard 8 gives us another ASI, so let's max out our INT. Wizard 9 gives us fifth level spells of which my favorites are synaptic static, transmute rock and hold monster, and then finally we're going to switch back to Artificer and this is where the pieces start coming together

First create a bag of holding and then step into it. As a warforged you can be there indefinitely but really all you need is an hour. While in there, bring a clipboard and some scrolls and start writing down some glyphs of warding. These are going to be 4th level spell glyphs that contain Wall of Fire. The glyph triggers on a command word that doesn't require an action and surrounds you in an inward-facing ring 20 feet in diameter. Leave the ward in your bag of holding since while it's in an extradimensional space it's technically not moving, and then when the battle begins you can walk into the fray say the command word to surround yourself, then step into the sky and start using AoE spells to drag enemies into your hate circle. They'll take damage every time they cross the edge and every time they end their turn inside which is nice on its own, but because the spell doesn't require concentration since it was cast by glyph of warding, you can drop another AoE effect inside such as Sickening radiance, turning your hate circle into a pit of despair. It's worth noting that you can do all this three levels early if you have a bag of holding or other extradimensional storage space, which most players should have by that point, but this is just the earliest you can get it as an artificer

Finally, we get to Artificer 3, Artillerist. When I first started this build, the flamethrower turret was what I wanted to optimize. Admittedly I now realize that a bonus action spell-free 15-foot cone of fire damage is just the cherry on top, but all the same with your other spells clustering your enemies for you and the ability to fly turning your 15-foot cone into a 15-foot diameter circle, you're still going to get some meat out of this

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## ftafp

@Sol0botmate

I was looking over Rune Knight builds and gave yours a look-over. It looks fantastic. With that in mind have you considered including a 3-level dip in Hexblade for Pact of the Blade? Unlike Enlarge/Reduce, Rune Knight doesn't resize your weapons  which means you can use Pact of the Blade to summon an Large/Huge Greatsword that does 4d6/6d6 damage on a hit. Hexblade's Curse also lets you crit fish, doubling those damage dice, and the availability of Darkness/Devil's Sight has its own uses as always

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## Sol0botmate

> @Sol0botmate
> 
> I was looking over Rune Knight builds and gave yours a look-over. It looks fantastic. With that in mind have you considered including a 3-level dip in Hexblade for Pact of the Blade? Unlike Enlarge/Reduce, Rune Knight doesn't resize your weapons  which means you can use Pact of the Blade to summon an Large/Huge Greatsword that does 4d6/6d6 damage on a hit. Hexblade's Curse also lets you crit fish, doubling those damage dice, and the availability of Darkness/Devil's Sight has its own uses as always


Not delay is worth on Rune Knight. 1 level dip is enough. Rune Knight has too many good stuff on almost every level. It only slows down at level 16 (1 Cleric/15 RK) but then you are close to ASI and to second Action Surge. 

Besides there is no mechanic where Large Greatsword would deal as much damage. That is houserule I think. I think even Fire Giant greatsword still deal 2d6.

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## Zaile

I humbly submit my recent thought experiment. I give you Bob the Builder. 

***Update with Bob's total yearly capacity!****

This is a purely fun build I plan to use for an NPC/Mentor, he could also be a quest hub for adventures. Enjoy and comment with things Bob should do.

*BOB THE BUILDER*
After years of adventuring, Bob decided to retire at the young age of 70. Then he got bored and started a construction company. Using his magic and skill at building things, Bob set out to provide homes and defenses to some of the more isolated and poor areas of the continent. Bob tends to spend around a year at most in places and is always creating items and building structures. During his travels, Bob has gained several apprentices who help him on his mission. Bob doesnt believe in doing small things, Bob goes bigly. Bob builds/repairs entire villages and keeps, taking time to craft the finest details, and even clearing the land around the area to create irrigation channels, tributaries, or difficult terrain to protect the villages. 

*Race*: Bob is a mountain dwarf. Bob met Tasha once, so Bob has +2 CON +2 INT with Carpenters Tools as his proficiency.
*Background*: Bob is a Guild Artisan with proficiency in Masons Tools
*Stats*. Bob is a Dwarf in heavy armor. Bobs stat priorities are INT > CON > STR > WIS 13 > DEX > CHA

*Classes*
Bob likes to make things and wear armor, so Bob is a 1st level Forge Cleric with proficiency in Smiths Tools.
Bob uses spells to be a one-dwarf construction crew and his days are busy. To help save time, Bob is a 19th level Scribes Wizard.

*Tool Proficiencies*: Bob sure has learned a lot over the years. He is proficient in Smiths, Carpenters, Masons, Tinkerers, Glassblowers, Jewelers, Woodcarvers, and Alchemists tools as well as Painters supplies.

*ASIs:* Bob is smart, he got his INT to 20 ASAP. Bob is tough, he took Resilient: Con and got his CON to 20. Bob is strong, he has at least 15 STR to wear his fancy plate mail.
*
Spells*. Bob is a level 1 cleric and level 19 wizard, he has many more spells, but these are the ones he uses when working. Some of the spells are more tailored to specific areas, such as having _fly_ or _feather fall_ prepared when working high up or having _arcane lock_ and _magic mouth_ prepared when putting the finishing touches on a building.

Cantrips: _mending, mage hand, prestidigitation, mold earth, shape water_
1st: _detect magic, earth tremor, feather fall, find familiar, floating disc, tensers floating disc, guidance_
2nd:_ arcane lock, enlarge/reduce, gust of wind, knock, magic mouth_
3rd: _Galder's tower, animate dead, fly, glyph of warding, tiny hut, phantom steed, tidal wave_ 
4th: _fabricate, stone shape, polymorph_
5th: _wall of stone, animate objects, telepathic bond, telekinesis, transmute rock, teleportation circle_
6th: _move earth, guards and wards_
7th: _mirage arcane, Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, simulacrum_
8th: _mighty fortress_
9th: _wish_

*Spoiler: HOB BOB BUILDS*
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If there are dangerous creatures about, Bob is a 20th level adventurer, Bob deals with them. 

If Bob needs more helpers, Bob casts _animate dead_, but only on on dead bandits and evil creatures, or Bob _animate objects_ on the old statues in town or just _polymorphs_ the village kids into beasts of burden. If there is a particularly strong creature about, Bob makes a _simulacrum_ for a permanent helper. 

Bob coordinates his team with _Rarys telepathic bon_d and protects the from fall hazards with _feather fall_ and _fly_.

Bob uses _floating disc, phantom steed,_ and _telekinesis_ to move things about. 

When clearing land, Bob gets his helpers and the villagers to cut down trees. Bob uses _move earth_ to set the land and _tidal wave_ or _gust of wind_ to clean out debris. Bob melts down rusted metal for raw materials and turns damaged stone buildings into mud with _transmute rock_ so he can turn it back into stone later. 

To do most of his work making armor, weapons, small things, carriages, homes, and barriers, Bob uses _fabricate_ and _wall of stone_. If a village really needs a sturdy building, Bob hangs around for a year and casts _mighty fortress_ until its permanent. While hes building, Bob and his helpers (and villagers) sleep in _Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion_ or a _mighty fortress_. Bob has an eye for style, Bob uses his tool proficiencies and _stone shape_ to make intricate designs of all his creations. 

Bob believes in trade and making friends. When Bob is going to spend a year in an area, Bob makes a _teleportation circle_ to connect to his old friends to his new ones. 

When Bob cant make it, Bob makes a _wish_.

If Bob makes a secure vault, Bob uses _arcane lock_. If Bob wants to make a fancy doorbell, Bob uses _magic mouth_. 


*HOW MUCH CAN BOB BUILD?*
This is to see just how much Bob can do in a year. Wish has its own section as being able to cast it 365 times to build anything short of a castle RAW will make any other spells on the list moot. As a DM, I make casting more than one a year have a scaling chance to draw the attention of powerful Djinn and other nasties, maybe even deities. There are two things I will use it to make components for, thats it. This is altruism after all. Plus, Bob likes meeting new people and helping. He teaches while he builds. The first thing Bob does is deals with dangers like bandits and monsters.
To keep expensive materials and components a safe, Bob makes vaults made of wall of stones sealed with arcane locks. He usually makes it in the area the village wants it so they can use it later. 

Also worth noting, none of the actual building Bob does requires more than 4-6 hours of time. Bob could be really cheesy and do 4 hours of work, blow all his slots, take a long rest, repeat and get 2 full days of spell slots each day. This speeds up everything except the Galer's tower's, teleportation circle, and mighty fortress. 

*Spoiler: CLEARING LAND*
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Villagers help by cutting trees, clearing debris, and making rope if things like bridges are needed. 

*Erupting Earth* 3rd, 15 casts/day
RAW the spell does not say it affects things like trees on the ground, but a 20 cube is enough to uproot a tree or two. Not the exact rule of the spell, but dealing 3d12 is a lot of force. Also saves time cutting trees down. 

*Tidal Wave and Gust of Wind*
More flavorful, but Bob uses these to clean out really dirty areas and push trash and crap out of the area to be dealt with later. 

*Mold Earth* 6th, 5 casts/day
Bob uses mold earth to create what is needed. He can elevate the village up to 20 and create all kinds of trenches, moats, tributaries and irrigation canals. He can also use it to make natural docks for boats by a river and use transmute rock to make solid stone for easier anchoring of boats. This spell can be used to dredge a river and make it deeper. Sadly, it cant be used to make Pueblo-style houses in stone cliff-faces but CAN do so if the cliffs are made of clay. 
With a 40x40 area each 10 minutes for 2 hours per casting, Bob can shape a total area of 40x40 (or 64 5 squares) 20 times. That is 1,280 5 squares. Bob can do this 5 times per day using his 6th-9th level slots for a total of 6,400 5 squares of land. A 3x 3 game mat has 1,296 squares. This is 5, count it, FIVE GAME MATS OF TERRAIN! If Bob needs more than a day, be is building a good size city.


*Spoiler: INFRASTRUCTURE*
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*Transmute Rock 5th, 9 casts/day*
This is less effective than wall of stone for making roads, but perfect for making odd shapes like long tributaries, irrigation channels, or aqueducts. This has much finer control than wall of stone, us it for the narrower things on the ground like alleyways or sidewalks in towns. Make as many smaller/narrower roads and alleyways as needed. Also good for creating a stone base along nearby rivers to hep build docks. 40x40 is 64 squares total. Bob has a decanter of endless water in case there is no rain. 

*Wall of Stone 5th, 9 casts/day*
This allows the creation of 10x100 heavy roads (using the 6 option) or 10x200 regular roads (3 option). 3 should be enough, even for frequent use. 
This can also be used to make bridges over chasms and rivers.


*Spoiler: HOUSING AND BUILDINGS*
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*Stone Shape 4th, 12 casts/day*
This is what Bob uses to make doors and windows when putting the finishing touches on a building. The spell level for this is ridiculously high, but it is the only spell that can make the changes. Alternatively, Bob and co. can use traditional methods of masonry to get the windows and doorframe carved. 

*Fabricate 4th, 12 casts/day*
Not as useful as wall of stone for buildings or homes. You can only make 8 5 cubes per cast, but it is good for bridges, tree-house sized buildings, outhouses, docks, deer stands, etc. the 10x10x10 cube is total mass, so theoretically your DM could allow wider, but thinner things such as the entire side/walls of a wooden house so they can be raised up and joined together (like hoses in the real world are). Or it could be used to crate 10 wide x 2.5 thick dock planks. Be creative. RAW it would take 2 castings to make a 20x10x20 wood house, which is smaller, less efficient, and more flammable, than wall of stone buildings. 

*Transmute Rock 5th, 9 casts/day*
The only real draw to use this for building is as the floor. You could create a 40x40 floor of soft stone and just wall it in using walls of stone. This would give you the ability to create more interior rooms and walls. Still, its the same level as a wall of stone that makes more square feet of panels. 

*Wall of Stone 5th, 9 casts/day*
This is Bobs main spell to build. The math on this is fantastic. Each cast lets you create a total of 10 panels. Panels can be 6 thick and be 10x10 or 3 thick and 10x20. Casting with the 6 thickness can make a fully enclosed 20x10x10 house or 100x10 length of outer wall. Using the 3 thickness, you can double the length to 200x10. The 3 panels should be used for the floors, ceilings, and interior walls. Using all 9 casts Bob can do per day, and using his arcane recovery to get 2 more, Bob can cast this spell 11 times. With 2 6 thickness castings you can make a 50x50x10 outer walls, then cast it additional times using the 10x20 option to create sections containing part of the ceiling, floors, and interior walls to satisfy the contiguous element of the spell. Think of it like inserting shipping containers inside the outer walls to make the rooms. Bob can also leave a panel open on the roof for an entrance to a second story. 

That gives Bob 2 smaller houses or one large/2-story house each day. This amounts to 740-ish 50x50x10 buildings a year with halls, floors, and 3-5 rooms. This is in addition to the keep from mighty fortress and one or two Galders towers with 6-7 floors.

This method can also be used with move earth to create underground bunkers, vaults, and storm cellars. Each town should have 1 or 2 of these for emergencies or under the keep for valuables. Stone shape a door with a stone bar and arcane lock, and you need magic or a titan to open it. Panels can be layered for extra protection.

*Mighty Fortress 8th* 
This is the big one. The more I look at it, I realize this is one of the most practical, amazing spells Wizards has ever made. This was my inspiration for Bob.
Cast this once a week for a year and you have a permanent fort staffed with tons (literally) of food and 100 invisible servants so there is no need to hire maids. This also eliminates the need for food for smaller villages, thus letting them store up a stockpile of a years worth of things like grain as well as give the wild game an extra year to multiply. Bob can only make 1/year, but its likely making the same building will cost 100 times the material components. If the village is big enough, he makes one every time. 

The material cost is expensive: a 500gp diamond x 52 casts is 26,000 gp. This is one of the wish cheats Bob uses. Bob wishes for A diamond worth 25,000gp that is fractured perfectly so when Bob hits it, it shatters into 50, 500 gp diamonds. That leaves 2 500gp diamonds to account for. 1,000 gp is a small price to pay for your own fort. Bob could also send his minions to go find some, or just carries quite a few around. 
Bob cold also wish for A Mighty Fortress centered here without the magical benefits if he wanted to save time as the fortress is 1 item (required by the spell) but would have no furnishings, magical servants or food. This version is contingent on the 25,000 gp limit roughly equaling the material component cost, not the actual value of such a keep. 


*Spoiler: TRANSPORT*
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*Teleportation Circle* 5th, only need 1 cast/day
1 cast/day for a year is awfully expensive 50gp chalk x 365 casting = 18,250gp for a permanent circle. And to use it you must be able to cast he spell or have a contingency cast on it. This is best when the area is remote and there are a couple spellcasters in town. If not, Bob just casts contingency and gives the village elders the trigger words. A good escape mechanism that can be used to send villagers to the next closest Bob-circle. Not as practical for inter-village travel as I originally thought. 
This is one where Bob is allowed to cheat with wish. Bob wishes for a magical chalk pile big enough to cast teleportation circle every day for a year. Its under the 25k gp cap, so youre good and its a component so not too much on the cheese factor. 

*Fabricate* 4th, 12 casts/day
The way it is worded, proficiency in masons and carpenters/woodcarvers tools would allow Bob to create one very nice 8 5 cube wagon, stagecoach, wheelbarrow, small boat, farm equipment like plows. It could even be used to create pulley and lift baskets and components for larger things like windmills for grain.  


*Spoiler: DEFENSES*
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*Wall of Stone* 5th, 9 casts/day
With 10 6 thick 10x10 panels it is easy to create really good walls that keep out nearly all natural animals and are a good defense against foes. With masons tool proficiency, I would allow a player to create each panel with things like open doorways and arrow slits. Bob is good at this. 

*Fabricate* 4th, 12 casts/day 
With Smiths, Woodcarvers, Masons and Leatherworkers proficiency, each casting could yield any one suit of armor, any weapon, and any siege weapon like ballista/catapults. If all Bob did was make armor and weapons, he could make 4,365 items per year. Not that most small villages need that much, but just using his 4th level slots gives 1,095 things/year. 



*Finishing Touches*
Magic mouths for alarm systems. Arcane locks on all doors and windows allowing only people who live in the village to not be affected. 

*Spoiler: WHAT DOES BOB'S DAY LOOK LIKE?*
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*Clearing Day(s)
*Arcane lock on keep vault door (2nd level slot). Erupting earth x3 (3rd level slots) for lumber. Fabricate 3 times to make whatever has priority (4th level slots). Make fist wall of stone building (3 x 5th level slots). Move earth 1-3 times (2 6th level slots and a 7th). Guards and wards on the fortress entrances (7th slot). Mighty Fortress (8th slot). Wish for fortress material components in arcane locked keep vault (9th slot). 

*Other Days & Spell Loads*
1st level: whatever
2nd level: arcane lock, magic mouth
3rd level: Galders tower, glyph of warding (for vaults and components)
4th: fabricate, stone shape
5th: wall of stone, animate objects, telepathic bond, telekinesis, transmute rock, teleportation circle (1 casting only)
6th: guards and wards (on fortress), Extra walls of stone, fabricate, Galders tower upcast
7th: walls of stone, fabricate, Galders tower upcast
8th: mighty fortress (only needed once/week, but reserved on that day), walls of stone, fabricate, Galers tower 
9th: wish (as needed), upcast Galders tower

***On Galers tower - It starts at 2 stories and scale +1 story per spell level. At a 6th or 7th level slot, you can reliably cast it each day and with a 24 hour duration, you could actually cast it every other day and be OK. A 6th level tower is 6 stories, a 7th is 7 stories. I suggest 6th or 7th level. You shouldnt do 8th b/c of Mighty fortress, and 9th should be needed for anything randomly.


*Spoiler: THE TOTAL*
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*In 1 year, Bob can make:* 
A permanent Mighty Fortress1-2 Galders Towers (6th or 7th level slot safely without risk of failing due to not have enough slots).300-740 stone buildings w/ wall of stone.Alternatively, ceate 6-9 5th level + Galders Towers and a mighty fortress encircled with walls of stone instead of normal buildings.Up to 36,500 feet (7 miles) of heavy 6 roads or 73,000 feet (almost 14 miles) of lighter 3 roads 10 wide with 1 wall of stone casting/day. Can also easily make bridges.Create a permanent teleportation circle.Any combination of 1,095 Arcane locks and magic mouths. To lock ever door and window in town and give some doorbells/alarms.Create hundreds of stone statures, stairways, awnings, ramps, doors etc. using stone shape.Up to 23,360 squares of transmuted mud into any combination of stone alleys, tributaries, irrigation canals, sewer pipes, or aqueducts with 1 casting of transmute rock per day.Up to 1,095 individual weapons, armors, tree-houses, wooden buildings, siege weapons, deer-stands, etc. using fabricate.Have wish to get any materials needed. 




Bob is a good dwarf, be like Bob.

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## Zaile

> Not delay is worth on Rune Knight. 1 level dip is enough. Rune Knight has too many good stuff on almost every level. It only slows down at level 16 (1 Cleric/15 RK) but then you are close to ASI and to second Action Surge. 
> 
> Besides there is no mechanic where Large Greatsword would deal as much damage. That is houserule I think. I think even Fire Giant greatsword still deal 2d6.


Actually the DMG p.278 lays out the rules. It says you increase the damage dice by 1 for each size over medium. It's why giant's weapons are 9d6, 3d12, etc. I have a RK grappler right now and he is using a Nycoloth's 2d12 greataxe with Giant's Might. Works well when grappling isn't an option.

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## Sol0botmate

> Actually the DMG p.278 lays out the rules. It says you increase the damage dice by 1 for each size over medium. It's why giant's weapons are 9d6, 3d12, etc. I have a RK grappler right now and he is using a Nycoloth's 2d12 greataxe with Giant's Might. Works well when grappling isn't an option.


I don't think thats accurate for players. Enlarge Reduce spell says that _"The target's weapons also grow to match its new size. While these weapons are enlarged, the target's attack with them deal 1d4 extra damage."_

*Yup, what you refer to is "CREATING A MONSTER" chapter in DMG. Rules you mention are EXCLUSIVE to monsters. They do not work with Player Characters. That's the mechanics you make when you create Large/Huge etc. monsters.*

So I suggest you tell that RK grappler player that he plays 5e wrong and he DOES NOT GET INCREASED DAMAGE. Gian'ts Might already covers increased damage because of increased size and that is 1d6 to 1d10 once per turn. That's it.

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## Zaile

> I don't think thats accurate for players. Enlarge Reduce spell says that _"The target's weapons also grow to match its new size. While these weapons are enlarged, the target's attack with them deal 1d4 extra damage."_
> 
> *Yup, what you refer to is "CREATING A MONSTER" chapter in DMG. Rules you mention are EXCLUSIVE to monsters. They do not work with Player Characters. That's the mechanics you make when you create Large/Huge etc. monsters.*
> 
> So I suggest you tell that RK grappler player that he plays 5e wrong and he DOES NOT GET INCREASED DAMAGE. Gian'ts Might already covers increased damage because of increased size and that is 1d6 to 1d10 once per turn. That's it.


I don't think that's right. The nycoloth greataxe just magically shrinks and it's damage dice goes down? It is listed as 2d12 in the stat block and is designed for a large creature, this follows the DMG rules exactly. He has disadvantage to attack with it unless he is large from giant's might or enlarge. Giant's might and enlarge are separate effects that have their own rules. The RAW stat blocks of the monster do not increase the damage die for the axe, it's actual size does. Some monsters do have clauses like "weapons this creature wields deal an extra dice of damage" but nycoloth does not have that clause, just like actual giant's weapons' don't. It is a function of actual size, not magically-enhanced size.

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## Sol0botmate

> I don't think that's right. The nycoloth greataxe just magically shrinks and it's damage dice goes down? It is listed as 2d12 in the stat block and is designed for a large creature, this follows the DMG rules exactly. He has disadvantage to attack with it unless he is large from giant's might or enlarge. Giant's might and enlarge are separate effects that have their own rules. The RAW stat blocks of the monster do not increase the damage die for the axe, it's actual size does. Some monsters do have clauses like "weapons this creature wields deal an extra dice of damage" but nycoloth does not have that clause, just like actual giant's weapons' don't. It is a function of actual size, not magically-enhanced size.


If you refer to 278 page in DMG- it's for monsters, not players. That's it. There is nothing to add. You can give your players a greataxe of 6d12 is you want, that's not my concern. But there is no increase in damage for player weapons when they get bigger. Those are RAW. How you play at your table is not my concern.

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## ftafp

> I don't think thats accurate for players. Enlarge Reduce spell says that _"The target's weapons also grow to match its new size. While these weapons are enlarged, the target's attack with them deal 1d4 extra damage."_


That's enlarge/reduce. Giant's Might on the other hand doesn't even resize your weapons. _"If you are smaller than Large, you become Large, along with anything you are wearing. If you lack the room to become Large, your size doesn't change."_ Note that it doesn't specify *carrying*, which the rules always make an exception for.

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## Zaile

> If you refer to 278 page in DMG- it's for monsters, not players. That's it. There is nothing to add. You can give your players a greataxe of 6d12 is you want, that's not my concern. But there is no increase in damage for player weapons when they get bigger. Those are RAW. How you play at your table is not my concern.


I got you, but is the nycoloth's axe. They killed one and he picked it up. I think you may have missed that. That specific axe's damage is 2d12 by virtue of size, not the nycoloth wielding it (it's wielding it does make it a magical weapon, but that's it). What you are saying is that if you kill a nycoloth and pick up it's 2d12 Large greataxe, it changes size and damage down to 1d12. I don't thin that is the correct interpolation of the actual, large-size axe.

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## Gignere

> I got you, but is the nycoloth's axe. They killed one and he picked it up. I think you may have missed that. That specific axe's damage is 2d12 by virtue of size, not the nycoloth wielding it (it's wielding it does make it a magical weapon, but that's it). What you are saying is that if you kill a nycoloth and pick up it's 2d12 Large greataxe, it changes size and damage down to 1d12. I don't thin that is the correct interpolation of the actual, large-size axe.


But thats not a martial weapon. How did your player get proficiency?

Edit: Nvm thats cool. Haha can only use it after he changes to giant size.

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## Zaile

> But thats not a martial weapon. How did your player get proficiency?


Yeah, I got you. NP, it's a weird thing. 

In the description it is a greataxe. A greataxe is a martial weapon. Not much argument about that. The DMG rules clarify that he has disadvantage because it is sized for a large creature. I actually like him having it because his build is focused on grappling and he has very low damage when that isn't an option. I really don't see the RAW arguments here based on the clear rules. I suggest we stop and focus on the point of the thread.

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## Sol0botmate

> I got you, but is the nycoloth's axe. They killed one and he picked it up. I think you may have missed that. That specific axe's damage is 2d12 by virtue of size, not the nycoloth wielding it (it's wielding it does make it a magical weapon, but that's it). What you are saying is that if you kill a nycoloth and pick up it's 2d12 Large greataxe, it changes size and damage down to 1d12. I don't thin that is the correct interpolation of the actual, large-size axe.


Nope. 2d12 is just how much nycloth Greataxe deals when he wields it. That's how monster stats are described. For player it's just greataxe in terms of mechanics:

*From Monster Stats:*

_"Greataxe: Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 18 (2d12 + 5) slashing damage."_

It's not that this Greataxe is 2d12. It deals 2d12 IN HANDS OF NYCLOTHS WHEN HE ATTACKS WITH IT AS A MONSTER WITH CERTAIN EQUIPMENT.

*Same as Fire Giant:
*
_"Greatsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: (6d6 + 7) slashing damage. "_

You don't get a freaking 6d6 Greatsword from Fire Giant who is CR 9 monster :D. You wouldn't get 6d6 greataxe even at level 20 :D. If that was how rules work you would see TONS of builds using such weapons + Enlarge Reduce (2nd level spell mind you!!) and exploint the hell out of it, making Hexblades with EA using 6d6 greatsword with Enlarge Reduce and Crit Fish 12d6 hits :D. I hope I don't have to explain further that you are wrong because of how riddiculous this is.

Those weapons deal that much damage for the sake of that monster dealing that damage. It has nothing to do with size of monster or size of weapon. That's part of monster stats. It's part of THE MONSTER. It's not the weapon damage. It's monster damage, just using that particular weapon for the sake of fluff and details.

For player Greatsword will always be 2d6 and Greataxe 1d12. That's how 5e works.

EDIT: Kind request to moderator. Please move all posts with "nycloths greataxe" to seperate topic. This discussion has nothing to do with builds in this topic.

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## ftafp

Back on topic

*The Überflumph*


Ever since I learned that Flumphs do in fact qualify for the Spellcaster Sidekick class I've been wanting to write up a build for a flumph spellcaster. This is what I came up with.

Please note that the following is written under the assumption that when Crawford said Flumphs qualify he intended them to be able to cast spells with verbal components using telepathy. This is not RAW but if your DM is letting you play a Flumph Spellcaster it's hard to imagine them ruling against it when there are only a handful of non-verbal spells in the game.

*Race:* Flumph
*Class:* Healer Sidekick
*ASIs:* Wis [email protected], Wis [email protected], Wis [email protected], Magic Initiate (Shield, Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade)@16, Resilient (Dex +1)@19
*Empowered Spell School:* Evocation
*Spells:*
1. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Healing Word
2. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Healing Word, Bless
3. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Healing Word, Bless, Entangle
4. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Healing Word, Bless, Entangle
5. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Healing Word, Bless, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace
6. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Healing Word, Bless, Command, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace
7. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Healing Word, Bless, Command, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace, Heat Metal
8. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Healing Word, Bless, Command, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace, Heat Metal
9. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Healing Word, Bless, Command, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace, Heat Metal, Conjure Animals
10. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Healing Word, Bless, Command, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace, Heat Metal, Conjure Animals
11. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Healing Word, Bless, Command, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace, Heat Metal, Conjure Animals, Mass Healing Word
12. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Healing Word, Bless, Command, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace, Heat Metal, Conjure Animals, Mass Healing Word
13. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Healing Word, Bless, Command, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace, Conjure Animals, Mass Healing Word, Wall of Fire, Conjure Woodland Beings
14. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Healing Word, Bless, Command, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace, Conjure Animals, Mass Healing Word, Wall of Fire, Conjure Woodland Beings
15. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Healing Word, Bless, Command, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace, Conjure Animals, Mass Healing Word, Plant Growth, Wall of Fire, Conjure Woodland Beings
16. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Mage Hand, Healing Word, Bless, Command, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace, Conjure Animals, Mass Healing Word, Plant Growth, Wall of Fire, Conjure Woodland Beings
17. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Mage Hand, Healing Word, Bless, Command, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace, Conjure Animals, Mass Healing Word, Plant Growth, Wall of Fire, Conjure Woodland Beings, Contact Other Plane
18. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Mage Hand, Healing Word, Bless, Command, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace, Conjure Animals, Mass Healing Word, Plant Growth, Wall of Fire, Conjure Woodland Beings, Contact Other Plane
19. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Mage Hand, Healing Word, Bless, Command, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace, Conjure Animals, Mass Healing Word, Plant Growth, Wall of Fire, Conjure Woodland Beings, Contact Other Plane, Maelstrom
20. Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Mage Hand, Healing Word, Bless, Command, Faerie Fire, Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace, Conjure Animals, Mass Healing Word, Plant Growth, Wall of Fire, Conjure Woodland Beings, Contact Other Plane, Maelstrom
*Tier 1:*
Through the early levels of the game, the flumph's options are limited. Spellcasters are pretty much cantrip spammers, so Thorn Whip and Toll the Dead are going to be your bread and butter. Because flumphs have a fly speed, your best option is to stay overhead. Thorn Whip pairs perfectly with this, allowing you to pull enemies 10 feet into the air and drop them, doing and extra 1d6 and knocking them prone which your allies will thank you for. For leveled spells, Healing Word is a good pick since you're not going to be doing much besides spamming cantrips, but Bless, Entangle and Faerie Fire are all fine uses of your concentration.

*Tier 2:*
At level 5 you get Spiritual Weapon which being a concentration-free constant use of your bonus action is invaluable to your damage output. Command on top of that is a fantastic spell in the hands of a Flumph, as you are casting it telepathically. That mean you can use it for social purposes as well as combat ones. Those combat uses are going to come in particularly handy at level 9 when you get access to Conjure Animals. Surround the enemy in CR 1/4 animals and then command them to flee. Not only will they drop what they're holding but they'll also provoke 8 attacks of opportunity

*Tier 3:*
Tier 3 starts anticlimactically but at level 13 you get 4th level spells which will include Wall of Fire which with your aerial positioning is going to be an excellent tool for dragging enemies through the flames using thorn whip. Conjure Fey is a fantastic upgrade to conjure animals, adding options such as the infamous Pixies to the mix who can potentially Polymorph the whole party if you so desire them to. 14 will give you your choice of a spell school to enhance, and Evocation is the clear winner as almost all your damage and healing spells are evocations. Note that this boost does not specify it only applies to one roll of the spell, so the ongoing damage Spiritual Weapon, Wall of Fire and so on are all boosted. Finally, level 16 will give you MI for Shield, BB and GFB, the latter two of which will apply your Empowered Cantrip bonus to both rolls of the spell. If that wasn't cool enough, Shillelagh will apply that bonus as well, meaning a booming blade will do 8d8+20 damage on a hit. As a caster you're going to be a bit squishy for close combat, but by this level with your summoning you can afford to ride one Giant Owl you summon in and out of combat without provoking attacks of opportunity

*Tier 4:*
Tier 4 is sadly pretty unexciting but we still get some use out of it. For 5th level spells we get Maelstrom which happens to be a fine AoE that can prove quite difficult to escape. The real winner here though is Contact Other Plane. Unlike Commune, its more well known cousin, Contact Other Plane doesn't have a cumulative 25% chance of going wrong, meaning you can use it as often as you like. There is the pesky problem of having to pass an Int save or else you take psychic damage or go insane but as luck would have it this is a divination spell and so your Telepathic Shroud makes you immune to both drawbacks.

----------


## LudicSavant

You've probably heard about Monks sucking at some point in your stay on these forums.  Some of this is overblown (Monks are relatively easy to 'screw up,' and the impact of Stunning Strike is oft underrated just because it's indirect), but not all of it.  In response, Monks have gotten some straight-up buffs in Tasha's.

So let's see if we can't go from Our Lee Sin to _Their_ Lee Sin.

Here we have a build that explores what a post-Tasha's Shadow Monk is capable of, with highlights like 'doing burst damage like a Samurai Sharpshooter in tier 2' or 'Make 7 triple-advantage attacks and force 10 saving throws in a round at the start of tier 3' on top of a whole bunch of mobility, stealth, and relatively good defenses for a Monk.

Tasha's has done a lot for the Shadow Monk; Ki-Fueled Attack triggers off their spells, Focused Aim is pretty efficient if you miss by 1-2 (less so if you miss by more, though it can still do it in an emergency), Dedicated Weapon allows them to use 1d10 Versatile weapons or make good use of whips, and perhaps most importantly, tools like Blind-Fighting give them a way to better exploit their relatively cheap Darkness casts.

Fluffwise, I see this as a hypnotic, dance-like fighting style based on entrapping foes in a web of feints, shadows, and punishing lashes.  With a penultimate technique that envelops the stage in blackness for a vicious Raging Demon-style beatdown.

*Build 15:  The Way of the Demonweb Spider*

_"The spider I, and you the fly."_

*Half-Drow Fighter 1 / Shadow Monk 5 / Battle Master 3 / Shadow Monk 11* (Total: Shadow Monk 16 / Battle Master Fighter 4)
*Starting Stats (Point Buy)*:  17 Dex / 16 Wis / 16 Con (alternate:  lower Con to 14 to raise Cha or Int to 12)
*ASIs*:  Elven Accuracy & 18 Dex @5, 20 Dex @8, 18 Wis @12, 20 Wis @16, Alert @20 
*Maneuvers*:  Tripping Attack, Riposte, Brace
*Fighting Style*:  Blind-Fighting

*Punching People in the Dark (Basic Offense and DPR)*
With a 10 minute duration and costing just 2 ki (plus having an extra use from your race), Darkness is spammable enough for a Shadow Monk that you can have it up nearly all the time.  Certainly much more often than, say, a Barbarian can have Rage. 

Thanks to Blind-Fighting, Darkness does a lot of things for you.  It gives nearby enemies Disadvantage to attack you.  It gives you Triple Advantage on all your melee attacks.  It makes it so that all of the many, _many_ abilities that require "a target you can see" just can't target you without countering Darkness first.  And it means that you can just ignore opportunity attacks, since opportunity attacks are one of those abilities (they trigger off "a target you can see" leaving your threatened area).  Who needs Mobility?

Thanks to its duration and your good stealth and scouting, you can often expect to have it pre-cast.  But even when you don't, you can still follow up a cast of it with a triple advantage 1d10+Dex+Stunning Strike+Maneuver attack (from ki-fueled attacks), then possibly another from your many Reaction options (more on that in a bit).  

During that whole time, you've got at least 3 triple advantage attacks.  Thanks to Dedicated Weapon, two of them can be made with a Versatile battleaxe, longsword, or warhammer wielded in both hands for a healthy 1d10 damage die (and at later levels when you have a high martial arts die, you can just use any weapon, like a whip).  This is pretty good for sustainable damage.  

For example, a level 6 Demonweb Monk with just Martial Arts and Darkness (or any other source of Advantage) does ~27.4 DPR vs AC 15, or ~24.2 vs AC 19 (barely even losing damage against the high AC).   For perspective, 18 Cha Hex + Agonizing Blast would deal 17.8 vs AC 15 or just ~12.7 vs AC 19.

But you can of course do more damage than that by spending more resources.  You can Flurry.  Or (at level 7) Action Surge.  Or (at level 8) use maneuvers.  Or use Stunning Strike to boost the damage of all your allies.  Or *all of the above at once*.

You also have a _lot_ of ways to get a reaction attack, so many that you can practically just assume you're getting one against many foes.  Enemy enters your threat range?  Brace.  Enemy leaves your threat range?  Opportunity attack.  Enemy stands still and melee attacks you?  Riposte.  Enemy ranged attacks you?  Deflect Missiles.  And of course any of these reaction attacks can be made at triple advantage, and attach crippling riders like Stunning Strike (interrupting an enemy's turn with a Reaction!) or Tripping Attack.

So for example, at level 9 you could toss out 7 triple-advantaged attacks for 5d10+4d8+2d6+35 (87.5) damage, plus _extra_ dice from your ~14.3% crit chance (and a ~65.9% chance of at least one attack of your 7 being a crit).  And when you get a couple more levels under your belt, you can have enough ki to attach Stunning Strikes to all of those hits, for up to a whopping 10 saving throws in a single turn (7 from stuns, 3 from maneuvers).  And you'll have almost no chance of missing, thanks to the combination of Elven Accuracy and Focused Aim.  And exploiting those stuns for more damage and control is a whole section unto itself.


In case you're wondering, yes, that's more than a Samurai Sharpshooter Action Surge at that level, before even counting anything like Tripping Attack or Stunning Strike improving teammate damage.

As you gain further levels, your personal burst damage doesn't get much better than this (so the Samurai will outscale you, at least in terms of "selfish" burst damage), though it doesn't really need to.  Instead, you get stronger defenses, greater mobility and stealth, and more ki resources to do your thing more times per day.

When not in Darkness, you're still a buffed Shadow Monk, with a variety of options.  KFA-improved Silence and Pass Without Trace are great spells.  You'll frequently have Triple Advantage on your first attack due to your high stealth, and that attack can carry with it Tripping Attack and/or Stunning Strike, which can then lead to all the rest of your barrage having Triple Advantage (as well as acting as a force multiplier for your teammates).  

*Defenses*
You have a bit above average hit points for a Monk, since Half-Elf can afford a 16 Con, and because of the Fighter levels.  But your HP and AC are still only ever going to be 'okay.'  Instead, much of your defense comes from more active, suppressive means.

You stay unseen until you first initiative comes up.  You stun enemies into submission, even with off-turn reactions ("Oh, you're approaching me?  Have a Stunning Brace.")  Or you can Silence casters.  You have mobility to kite, and a variety of tools to avoid OAs.  You have the ability to teleport or become invisible, ki-free (as long as you've got access to areas of dim light or darkness).  And a whole lot of abilities won't work well against Evasion, Stillness of Mind, Purity of Body, or an unseen target in Darkness.  Close ranged attacks have to contend with Disadvantage from Darkness, and long-ranged attacks have to contend with Deflect Arrows (or just using your mobility to position in cover).  And you do reliable damage, and help your allies do more damage, shortening the window enemies have to do harmful things.

*Techniques of the Demonweb Spider*
*Spoiler: Exploiting Stunning Strike*
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Stunned is one of the nastier conditions in the game, and very few things are immune to it.  If you have a good team, Stun is basically a death sentence.  And while it may be a Con save, the fact that you can force so _many_ saving throws (if you're willing to burn the ki) means that there's a very high chance that people will eventually fail one.

When an enemy is stunned...

- They automatically fail Strength and Dexterity-based saving throws, which means it's open season for your mage allies, especially if they're dropping hazards like Create Bonfire.  It also means that they'll automatically fail saves against Tripping Attack or Pushing Attack.

- All attacks against them have Advantage, which means it's open season for your attack-based allies.  Notably, this lasts until the end of your next turn, rather than the start... so you get Advantage on the rest of your attacks for the turn, _and_ your whole next turn.

- Stunned causes a foe to be Incapacitated, which straight up turns off a ton of features (like Legendary Actions, Bladesong, Petrifying Gaze, Displacement, anything with Concentration, etc etc etc etc etc).  

- Per PHB pg195, *Grapple and Shove attempts against Incapacitated creatures automatically succeed*.   This means that despite your 8 Strength, you can grab your stunned victim and use your speed boosts to pull 'em aaaall the way across the map.  Or you could Monk-run up a wall and suplex them for action-economy-free damage and prone.  Or you could cheese grater someone over a Bonfire (that they automatically fail saves against) or Spirit Guardians or Spike Growth or Sickening Radiance or whatever.  And then _everyone else in your party can do that too._

- It doesn't actually matter that much if your (or an ally's) Athletics check is low, because it takes an Action to break out of a grapple.  If someone loses a turn to being stunned, then another to breaking a grapple, they're basically done.


*Spoiler: When to use Focused Aim*
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If youre only spending 1 ki to turn a miss into a hit (for 1d10+Dex+possible riders), thats a rather efficient use of a ki.  Moreso if it's comboing with ki-fueled attack, replacing a Martial Arts unarmed strike with a Versatile weapon hit.  Compare to a Way of Mercy Monk using Hands of Harm for 1 ki for Martial Arts die + Wis damage.  And with elven accuracy, it's rare for you to miss by more than 2 anyways.

It's much more situational for the 2 or 3 ki versions to be worth it.  Those are your "this absolutely has to work right now" options.


*Spoiler: Know Your Spell Tactics!*
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All of your spells are useful, so you should familiarize yourself with all of them.

*Minor Illusion*
Notably, Minor Illusion is one of the very few spells that _does not_ have a Verbal component, which means you can use it to mess with people or set up a battlefield without breaking stealth.

*Darkvision*
This spell lasts 8 hours without Concentration.  It takes 1 hour to replenish your ki.  

In other words, it can be used as a sort of 1 hour ritual to grant Darkvision to those pesky VHumans so theyre not a burden to you in the underdark.

This goes hand in hand with Pass Without Trace in the be able to make your whole party stealthy department.

*Pass Without Trace*
A whopping +10 bonus to stealth for an hour can turn just about anyone into a ninja.  And when your entire team is undetected, that means something special: Surprise rounds.  Surprise rounds are very, very powerful in 5e.

It also makes you in particular a nigh-undetectable scout, which means that you can report threats to your allies so that they have a chance to pre-cast things.  This + Surprise can add up to a lot of extra output for your team.  And it lasts an entire hour!

This takes Concentration and ki, so at any given time youre going to have to weigh whether you want to be using this or Darkness.  

*Silence*
Fighting a caster?  One of the tools in your kit is Silence, which you can cast for just 2 ki.  You can drop Silence on an enemy, then punch them in the face with Ki-Fueled Attack for 1d10+Dex+a Stunning Strike and/or a Tripping Attack.  And then punch them again if they try to walk out of the range of silence, giving you another chance for Stunning Strike or Tripping Attack.   The main upshot of this is that it makes it harder to leave your 20 foot cube.

If you _do_ Stun them, you (or anyone in your party) can auto-succeed on grappling them, and they're basically done at that point.

Another tip:  Want a completely silent version of Knock that works not only on doors, but walls?  Cast silence and take out some sledgehammers.

*Darkness*
Darkness is a good spell that sometimes gets a bad rap because some people misuse it in a way that's detrimental to their party.  But that's not the spell's fault, it's the player's.  If you blame the plane for the pilot error, you'll never learn to fly.  So here are a few tips on how to fly!

- Understand why people cast spells like Fog Cloud even if they can't see through it.  Then realize that Darkness is _way easier_ to avoid hindering your allies with than Fog Cloud -- it's a higher level spell for good reason!  You (and any ally) can conceal or reveal it with an object interaction, you (and any ally) can move it around, you (and any ally) can illuminate it with a permanent Continual Flame item (as long as it was created with a level 3 or higher spell slot), and of course, you can see through it with a wider range of abilities (most famously Devil's Sight, but that's definitely not the only one -- in fact, as of Tasha's, _every class_ can access ways to see through it).  

- For people who don't have relevant special abilities, Darkness basically causes *all* sources of Advantage and Disadvantage to cancel out.  The attacker gets Advantage for being unseen, but Disadvantage for not seeing their target, so *everyone just attacks normally*.  So what's the point?  Well, the point is that you can use Darkness to neutralize any sources of Advantage or Disadvantage that benefit the enemy.  For example, if they use Blur or Greater Invisibility, and then you get them in your area of Darkness, all of your allies will attack _without_ Disadvantage!  

Want your allies to attack with a source of Advantage when _their_ turn comes up?  No problem!  Just have you (or an ally) use an object interaction to cover it, or move it, or take out an upcast Continual Flame object.

- An awful lot of enemy abilities require "a target you can see," and Darkness is an excellent defense against them.  For example, a beholder just can't shoot you at all with Darkness.  Even if they turn on the antimagic field, they block their own eye rays with it, and only suppress the Darkness rather than dispel it.

If you need to use your own party's "a target you can see" abilities, just have you (or an ally) use an object interaction to cover it, or move it, or take out an upcast Continual Flame object.  There are also an _awful lot_ of great spells that _do not_ require seeing the target.

- Opportunity attacks trigger off of "a target you can see" leaving threat range, and thus you can just ignore them.  Or help allies disengage, too.  It also means you have a lot of control over positioning so that you can determine exactly who you want seen or unseen.

- Counterspells are another important thing that require "a target you can see," which means you can cover your mage allies from counterspellers.  This is often much more efficient than getting into a "I counterspell your counterspell to his counterspell" war.  You can cast Darkness from outside of line of sight, move the object into the correct position, and bam, no counterspells for that important thing your mage wants to cast.

- Darkness synergizes extra well with anyone that has Alert, Blind-Fighting, Devil's Sight, Blindsight, truesight, bonus action Hiding, or just abilities that don't depend on sight much (like most AoEs, Wall of Force, etc).  As of Tasha's, there's more ways to synergize with Darkness than ever.  Let your allies know about this!  Or, alternatively, consider taking Darkness when you know your allies already have these sorts of things.  

- Keep in mind that both you and allies can cover or uncover your Darkness as a free object interaction if you need to temporarily turn it off for some reason.  Likewise, your allies can have fairly cheap Continual Flame items (upcast to L3 or higher) so that they can illuminate magical Darkness as an object interaction if they really need to.  You can also drop Concentration at any time (even when it's not your turn).

- Darkness is one of those things that can be a huge asset for your party, or can actually impede it if it's misused.  Kind of like how knocking enemies Prone can be fantastic for melee allies or non-attack-based kiters, but detrimental for allies dependent on long ranged attack rolls.  That doesn't mean that shoving is bad -- quite the opposite -- it just means that it's not for literally all party compositions. And it doesn't need to be.  Just as you wouldn't play a character who focused on shoving in a team of archers, you shouldn't play a character who makes heavy use of Darkness in a team of characters who are unusually anti-synergistic with it.  

That said, there are a lot of ways to make obscurement a major asset for your teammates, or to minimize interference (like the aforementioned object interactions or Monk hit and run tactics).  Often more than people think -- I've seen a huge number of things get blamed on anti-synergy that are really just a result of people not knowing how to take full advantage of the spell.

For example, if an allied Barbarian decides to Reckless Attack, you can follow that up by switching on or moving your Darkness over them negate the enemy's Advantage.  And if they want to get Reckless Advantage again when their turn comes up?  They can use a free object interaction to switch Darkness off temporarily.

*Edit*: I've added even more strategy tips on using Darkness.  Also, the discussion from post #873 to 878 has additional tips on how to use Darkness to your advantage, both as the Shadow Monk and as other characters on a Darkness-using-player's team!



*Spoiler: Choosing Your Maneuvers*
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One of the strengths of this build is the fact that you can attach up to two nasty riders to any given attack.

I chose Tripping Attack, Brace, and Riposte for the 'default' maneuver set for the build.  However, you can and should tailor your maneuver choices to suit your party composition and campaign.

For example, Tripping Attack is more useful the more your allies benefit from Advantage on melee attacks, and less useful the more your allies depend on ranged attack rolls.  For another, Pushing Attack is _dramatically_ more powerful if your allies use things like Create Bonfire, Spirit Guardians, or Spike Growth.  

So here are some guidelines for doing that:
- You should have at least 1 "smite-like" maneuver.  These are the abilities that activate after a hit is confirmed and add a damage die and a rider.  These are important to help us capitalize on our high crit-rate, giving us an extra 2d8 damage when we do (plus an extra effect).
- You should have at least 1 "reaction" maneuver, like Riposte or Brace.  Normally, the tradeoff for these maneuvers is that they don't auto-hit like the "smite-like" maneuvers, but your accuracy with Advantage is so high that you almost never miss anyways.  That plus the ability to attach a Stunning Strike to them makes them exceptionally good choices for you.
- Your third maneuver can be a second choice from the above categories, or it can be something like Ambush or Rally.

*Spoiler: Smite-Likes*
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*Disarming Attack:*  Its a Strength-based save which means enemies auto-fail it if theyre stunned, but I dont like this much because its too situational when you only have 3 maneuvers known.  Competent foes will have backup weapons anyways.

*Trip Attack:*
Since its a Strength save, Stunned enemies _automatically fail_ against it.

Tripping has a lot of possible uses.  Its yet another way for you to give Advantage to yourself and allies if the first way doesnt work (or if you just want to use your ki for something else).  Its a way to punch winged creatures out of the sky.  Its a way to impair enemy movement for hit and run tactics.  Its a way to lock down Stunned enemies even more with grapple+prone.

Tripping is best in parties that benefit a lot from prone.  Melee allies and kiting / controlling spellcasters will love it.  Ranged archers and eldritch blasters on the other hand might actually be impeded, with the possible exception of aggressively positioned Crossbow Experts or Gunners who can benefit from prone at point blank range.

Unfortunately, its a bit limited by the fact that it can only trip Large or smaller creatures.

*Pushing Attack:*
Like trip attack, stunned foes autofail the save, which combined with your move speed means you can punt people aaaaall the way across the map.

It also can help you kite/disengage when youre not using Darkness (or an enemy can see through it).

Pushing Attack is especially good if youre in a party that uses hazard spells; think Create Bonfire, Spike Growth, Spirit Guardians.  If you have those kind of party members, this is great and will frequently add good-sized chunks of damage and/or control to your attacks, action-economy free.

Unfortunately, its a bit limited by the fact that it can only knockback Large or smaller creatures.

*Menacing Attack:*
Darkness blocks line of sight to you, and therefore inhibits the fear effect.  Doesn't help that there's a fair number of foes who are immune to fear, either.  I usually like this maneuver, but less so for this particular build.

However, the "they can't move closer to you" line doesn't rely on sight, allowing you to strand melee foes out of range.  And you can just switch Darkness off with an object interaction if the effect takes.  And it doesn't care about size categories, unlike Pushing/Tripping Attack.

*Distracting Strike*
While things like Pushing Attack and Tripping Attack have a bigger payoff, the appeal of Distracting Strike is that it has no saving throw and works against all enemies.

Distracting Strike is best taken when you're going to hit and run, and have allies who can get a lot of benefit out of a single attack getting Advantage, such as Booming Blade or Sneak Attack.

*Maneuvering Strike*
Off-turn movement is nice, and doesnt care about enemy saving throws.  Best taken with teammates who want to kite, or ones where formation is particularly important (example: a Paladin aura).  Oh, and where your allies dont use their reactions too much.  

*Goading Attack:*
Now the enemy has Disadvantage on attacking everyone, rather than just you when youre in Darkness.

This is best used when allies wont be standing inside your Darkness (in which case, either the Disadvantage/Advantage cancel out, OR they already benefit from Disadvantage to be hit) and when enemies cant easily switch targets to you, like if you have a Warcaster/Booming Blade tank on your team.  

One of the nice things about Goading Attack is that the rider works on everyone, unlike Menacing/Pushing/Tripping.  



*Spoiler: Reactions*
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*Brace:*  A great way to get a reaction attack for a triple-advantage 1d10+1d8+5 damage+a possible Stunning Strike which can interrupt the turn of the person that was moving into range of you!

It doesnt even have to be willing movement!  Someone like an ally with Repelling Blast or Telekinetic or whatever can just _give_ you that reaction.  

Note you can also use a Whip as your Dedicated Weapon (if you're willing to lose out on a little bit of damage) in order to control a larger area with Reach.

*Riposte:*
A great way to get a reaction attack for a triple-advantage 1d10+1d8+5 damage+a possible Stunning Strike which can interrupt the turn of multiattacking creatures while youre at it!

Whether you pick this or Brace depends on how likely you are to be in a position where an enemy is closing in on you, or where theyre already stuck in melee with you and prioritize attacking you. 

Or you can pick both this _and_ Brace and have a situation where just about anything the enemy does causes a reaction attack:
- Attacking you in melee causes a Riposte
- Entering your melee range causes a Brace
- Leaving your melee range causes an Opportunity Attack
- Making a ranged attack causes a Deflect Missiles



*Spoiler: Other*
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*Ambush*
Makes you even better at winning initiative, stealth, and surprise.

*Bait and Switch*
An action-economy-free AC boost and positioning tool is a Nice Thing.  And +4.5 (average) AC is pretty good when thats being combined with Disadvantage to be hit.  Its just brief, and can be wasted if the enemy can easily switch targets.

*Evasive Footwork:*
Bait and Switch is better.  If you really need to Disengage without provoking, you can do it with Darkness or Step of the Wind, or simply by pummeling the poor sucker with Stunning Strike or Pushing Attack.

*Grappling Strike, Quick Toss, Commanders Strike, Feinting Attack:*
Doesnt fit your action economy.   Do not take.

*Precision Attack:* 
This is great for people who risk a lot of damage whiffing with SS or GWM.  Youre not those people.  You almost never miss, dont have too much damage riding on any _single_ attack, and have Focused Aim anyways. 

For you, turning a miss into a hit with Precision Attack is less efficient than spending a maneuver on a reaction attack or a critfishing mini-smite, and youre likely to have enough opportunities to use up all your maneuvers on those things during a short rest.

*Lunging Attack.*
You might be thinking that this might help you use a hit and run / skirmishing style when Darkness isnt up.  If so, you would be thinking wrong, because it increases your reach for only _one_ attack.  That sucks.

*Sweeping Attack:*
Overly situational, cant crit-fish, generally inefficient.  Do not take.

*Rally:*
So this isnt something you take to actually use in combat -- its a generally inefficient use of your bonus action and maneuver slot.  Instead, its something you take if and only if you plan to cheese it a bit by using it like a 1 hour ritual -- giving everyone temp HP then short resting to refresh the slots.
Thats a neat trick, but you have so few maneuvers known that Im cautious about diminishing your in-combat options.

*Parry:*  Riposte, Brace, Deflect Missiles, and Opportunity Attack are all better reactions IMHO.

*Tactical Assessment, Commanding Presence:*
Unless your campaign very specifically places an unusually heavy emphasis on these skills, you shouldnt take these.





*Progression*
*Spoiler: Progression*
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Being a half-elf basically lets you fit a 16 into Con instead of 14, while still keeping your Dex/Wis where you want them.

Tier 1 is a little rocky.  You're safer but less damaging at level 1 and 2 just from that extra HP and Second Wind from Fighter, and level 4 is great, but level 3 and 5 are worse than straight-class Shadow Monk.  

You could do Monk 5 then Fighter 1, but I don't recommend this as default because it makes the rest of your progression (up until Diamond Soul) lose out on the Con save proficiency (not to mention a couple of hit points).  Not only will Con save proficiency help you keep Darkness running, it's just arguably a better save than Dexterity in general.  Besides, you're still going to be resistant to Dex save-based attacks anyways because of your max Dex and Evasion.  

Tier 2, you kick into high gear.   Darkness is cheap and gives you triple Advantage on all of your attacks, and you have plenty of them.  And when you grab Action Surge and maneuvers, you legitimately can do _Sharpshooter Samurai_ levels of burst damage... and that's *without* counting the impact your stuns or riders have on your allies' damage (which can be quite a lot).  Or the possibility of getting Surprise rounds for your party with Pass Without Trace, which is just huge.

Tier 3 you're basically doing the same things, but with a lot more ki, better stats, and a growing set of useful defensive features like poison immunity, evasion, stillness of mind, etc.  If you run into someone you just really don't like, you can dump 7 triple advantage attacks and up to 10 saving throws against nasty effects in a single round.  Or you can stretch out your resources, getting steady triple advantage output, using maneuvers opportunistically on your frequent crits, and sprinkling in some stuns or Pass Without Trace surprise.

Tier 4 you get Diamond Soul and are therefore amazing at saving throws, and have enough ki to liberally spam your abilities.


*Variants/Notes*:
- You can take a 1 level dip in Peace Cleric right after Monk 14 to get a whopping 6 Concentration-free uses of Emboldening Bond.
- Though Half-Drow is likely the best choice, any kind of elf or half-elf will work.
- You can and should change up your maneuver choices based on your party composition and campaign (see the "choosing your maneuvers" section).
- You could go Fighter 1 / Monk 8 / Fighter 3 / Monk 8, if you want more ki and Monk defensive abilities first, rather than Battle Master stuff first.  Level 8 is a good breakpoint for Monk because they don't have a lot of scaling between then and 14, other than ki scaling.
- If you go Monk 5 first instead of starting with Fighter 1, you'll have a better 3, 5, and arguably 2.  However, you'll be a bit worse at other levels due to missing out on the benefits of your first level being Fighter.


Thoughts?

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## Ir0ns0ul

Im not a big fan of obscurement because it can jeopardize your allies, but the simple elegance of Fighter 2 (Blind Fighting & Action Surge) +  Darkness + Shadow Monk is really awesome. A nova round attacking 6 times with triple advantage is too good to be true  and you can do that every short rest.

Samurai, full casters, Paladin and everyone can only nova few times per long rest, so this combination is really impressive.

Great catch on custom Half-Elf giving 16 CON and WIS, and starting as Fighter to leverage CON save prof. Small details that increases a lot the durability of Monks.

Once again, you hit the nail. Our buddy Treatmonk would probably get offended by this build!

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## EdenIndustries

Let me know if I'm missing something Ludic but Blind Fighting has a range of 10 feet, but Darkness extends for 15 feet. So if you're standing at the centre of your Darkness, you can't see to the edge? Which would make it a bit tricky if you can't even see out of your own Darkness.

Let me know if I've missed something. Awesome build though, as usual!

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## LudicSavant

> Let me know if I'm missing something Ludic but Blind Fighting has a range of 10 feet, but Darkness extends for 15 feet. So if you're standing at the centre of your Darkness, you can't see to the edge? Which would make it a bit tricky if you can't even see out of your own Darkness.
> 
> Let me know if I've missed something. Awesome build though, as usual!


Right, Blind-Fighting only lets you 'see' 10 feet; your normal vision doesn't 'take over' after that any more than a bat's would at the end of their sonar range.  Which is why I say it only grants Disadvantage on close range attacks.  Advantage and Disadvantage cancels out for long-ranged ones.  This shouldn't actually prevent you from finding your enemies; you can still hear where they are.  And Deflect Missiles thankfully isn't sight-dependent.  In typical circumstances, it shouldn't really matter too much that you can't see beyond your melee range.  And you can always switch it on and off (or move in and out of it) in the circumstances that are the exception.

And if you're just fighting a bunch of devils or Warlocks who can see through your Darkness... well, then you switch to using Pass Without Trace or Silence instead, and maybe ask the local mage if they can spare a fog cloud or something.  Or you can stun or trip them for Advantage.

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## bendking

> -snip-


Great build as always, mate! Taking advantage of Blind Fighting with the most potent Fighter dip is a great idea.
The DPR on this gal is quite impressive for a Monk, too, which is usually an issue with them.

That said, I don't think Tasha has done enough for Monks as a whole. I think Shadow Monks are one of the bigger winners, because of both Ki Empowered Strikes _and_ Blind Fighting, but the buffs to the Monk class still don't address what I think is the class' core issue, which is scaling at the later tiers. The new Way of Mercy Monk is fantastic, and probably the best Monk available, but the class still leaves something to be desired in my humble opinion.

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## Chaos Jackal

I like it a lot. Might use something like that next oneshot, my DM is pestering me to roll a monk or druid because she's never seen me on one (hint: it's because I typically don't like them).

A few "gripes", so to speak.

The first is the obvious weak-ish early game, which does feel a bit emphasized due to the build being at its worst right at the levels where many others first spike. You certainly value Con proficiency, and I'd tend to agree most of the time, but do you think it's that important with an ink blot stopping attacks and spells thrown your direction? _Darkness_ is kind of spammable, as you mentioned; from a point on in particular, you can probably just recast it once or twice, in case you fail a concentration check. Dunno, I'm going a bit out on a limb here; I just feel it's not as massive a deal as it is for more typical caster types.

The second is what I'd call a slight case of bloating. Having a ton of opportunity attack options is certainly useful, but just how many options does it take before beginning to take options for the sake of options, without adding that much in versatility? Unfortunately, there is no way to get more than one attack of opportunity (I miss Combat Reflexes). Do you think all the options have equal, or at least similar, value? Brace, for example, seems cool on paper, but it's very likely that you'll have spent your reaction already by the time somebody decides to brave the ink blot of death and run at you eyes closed. It certainly has to do with Team Monster tactics, but it does seem like a couple of those reaction options won't see much use.

And third, following up on the above, if you feel there's not much contest and space for all of them, I gotta ask. Why the fourth fighter level? Opportunist is definitely not the best capstone, but it does offer another reaction option, particularly in a darkness-exploiting party, which this build lends itself to with its ability to spam the spell. And Alert is always great to have, but certainly not irreplaceable for the build. So is fighter 4 for smoother ASI progression in tiers 2 and 3?

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## Skylivedk

> You've probably heard about Monks sucking at some point in your stay on these forums.  Some of this is overblown (Monks are relatively easy to 'screw up,' and the impact of Stunning Strike is oft underrated just because it's indirect), but not all of it.  In response, Monks have gotten some straight-up buffs in Tasha's.
> 
> So let's see if we can't go from Our Lee Sin to _Their_ Lee Sin.
> 
> Here we have a build that explores what a post-Tasha's Shadow Monk is capable of, with highlights like 'doing burst damage like a Samurai Sharpshooter in tier 2' or 'Make 7 triple-advantage attacks and force 10 saving throws in a round at the start of tier 3' on top of a whole bunch of mobility, stealth, and relatively good defenses for a Monk.
> 
> -- SNIP --


Congratulations! This is probably the first monk build I've truly wanted to try!

What are your favourite alternative manoeuvres?

I don't think obscurement issues are that big. 
1) you are fast and can hence easily move the crowd
2) hopefully your party is somewhat synergetic
3) darkness lanterns are pretty easy to make

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## Sol0botmate

> *Build 15:  The Way of the Demonweb Spider*
> 
> _"The spider I, and you the fly."_
> 
> Thoughts?


Nice build whne it comes to combos. But I personally don't like the limiting factor of only relying on Darkness for all 20 levels of build and also still being vulnerable to enemies range attacks since Blind Sight is only 10 feet range. Darkness is nice but I find it hard to use with allies because of obscuring, which prevent your allies from using "you can see" spells and so on.  Especially in higher Tiers where many of the best spells your allies can cast are "you can see" type. Not to mention stuff like Healing Word etc. and your melee allies trying to use their advantage generation tricks (Reckless, Shove, VoE etc.) and suddenly losing benefit.

It works well with Hexblades because they get Shadow of Moil upgrade at level 7. It also works great with range builds because you can position yourself at far back of the party (especially with Sharpshooter) and not interrupt them. Plus range build can maintaing advantage by staying out of range of enemy "senses" when possible.

But I would not run a melee Darkness build as a base for whole build life. It would in my opinion cause more issues during encounters in the long run than help (especially in smaller areas). Hexblade for just first 6 levels can get away with it. But for 20 levels? 

Worth to mention also that in higher tiers you have more enemies with Truesight (which Darkness does nothing against, unlike Shadow of Moil), your usual Blindsight or Tremorsense etc. Hexblades have SoM vs Truesight and Fly vs Tremorsense. When fighting against Blindsight they can always use Elemental Weapon or switch to range EB spam. Finally they get Foresight to counter all 3 all day. But here you are hard countered by all three for whole career. 

 I like the synergy of features here. It's just my opinion that it won't work well for whole 20 levels. It's a one-trick pony.

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## LudicSavant

> So is fighter 4 for smoother ASI progression in tiers 2 and 3?


Yes.

Monks unfortunately have a huge stat dependency, so raising Dex and Wis ASAP was a priority.




> Nice build whne it comes to combos. But I personally don't like the limiting factor of only relying on Darkness for all 20 levels of build and also still being vulnerable to enemies range attacks since Blind Sight is only 10 feet range.


Im not sure why you think that its a one trick pony, unless you think a pre-Tashas Shadow Monk is a zero trick pony.

You shouldnt be only relying on Darkness.  Take away Darkness (which pre-Tashas Shadow Monks only used very situationally) and youre still a buffed Shadow Monk.  You have access to KPS Silence, Pass Without Trace, Tripping Attack and Stunning Strike and stealth as alternate Advantage generators, Blind-Fighting party combos, and 7-attack combos with up to 10 riders.

Youre no more vulnerable to long ranged attacks than a pre-Tashas Shadow Monk would be.  And if you are up against a big ranged attack threat, what you should do is use your mobility to either dash into full cover and hide as you approach (if theyre too far for even a Monk to reach) or move directly into melee range of them so they need to face an OA to avoid Disadvantage.




> Congratulations! This is probably the first monk build I've truly wanted to try!
> 
> What are your favourite alternative manoeuvres?


Probably Pushing Attack with hazard users on the team.

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## Sol0botmate

> Im not sure why you think that its a one trick pony, unless you think a pre-Tashas Shadow Monk is a zero trick pony.


This is my personal opinion, but yes, I think Monks in general are very weak and useless compare to other classes and I think that this triple advantage multi attacks would finally make him good in party vs other melee classes. However, as I said - I don't like relying on Darkness so much to finally make him do some really nice blending.

Please keep in mind this is my personal opinion about monks and since I played Hexblade for 1-17 levels I remember first hand how many issues Darkness cause for party (even with best effort to position yourself) and how big relief it was to finally get SoM. Hexblades using reach weapon also made it a lot easier to position yourself to not interrupt your party too much. But with 5 feet range + 15 feet Darkness it would be a lot trickier or impossible in some fights I had during my first 6 levels.

It's still a very nice build. My critique in big part is my personal view on some things in 5e so don't take it personally :).

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## LudicSavant

> Awesome build though, as usual!





> I like it a lot. Might use something like that next oneshot, my DM is pestering me to roll a monk or druid because she's never seen me on one (hint: it's because I typically don't like them).





> Congratulations! This is probably the first monk build I've truly wanted to try!





> Once again, you hit the nail.





> Great build as always, mate! Taking advantage of Blind Fighting with the most potent Fighter dip is a great idea.
> The DPR on this gal is quite impressive for a Monk, too, which is usually an issue with them.


Thanks!  Glad to hear you guys enjoy it  :Small Smile: 




> You certainly value Con proficiency, and I'd tend to agree most of the time, but do you think it's that important with an ink blot stopping attacks and spells thrown your direction? _Darkness_ is kind of spammable, as you mentioned; from a point on in particular, you can probably just recast it once or twice, in case you fail a concentration check. Dunno, I'm going a bit out on a limb here; I just feel it's not as massive a deal as it is for more typical caster types.


I think it's a good choice since you have multiple long-duration, important Concentration spells (PWT, Silence, and Darkness) and because even with Disadvantage you might not be one of the hardest people in the party to hit with Monk AC.  And also because I think Constitution saves are often a better save in general, even without Concentration.  Especially since Evasion+Max Dex will help curb the impact of Dex saves anyways.

If 18 AC+Disadvantage and some kiting is enough to make you the hardest person in the party to hit in your party, with folks being afraid to engage the Darkness bubble, I could see a bit less importance being placed on it.  But you could just as easily have people still going after you first, especially if you're bullying people with your melee presence / reaction threats.




> Do you think all the options have equal, or at least similar, value? Brace, for example, seems cool on paper, but it's very likely that you'll have spent your reaction already by the time somebody decides to brave the ink blot of death and run at you eyes closed. It certainly has to do with Team Monster tactics, but it does seem like a couple of those reaction options won't see much use.


I like Brace for two reasons. 

One is that unlike most such abilities, it doesn't care if movement is willing.  So if you've got any knockback-users in your team, they can trigger it.
Two is that, combined with Stunning Strike, it can just interrupt the entire turn of an enemy that tries to engage you in melee (or walk past you to get to an ally).  That's pretty harsh.   I like that.

The idea with taking _both_ Brace and Riposte was to sort of close out enemy decision trees as much as possible, and because I think that reaction maneuvers are unusually good here.  Normally, the thing that evens out their value is that unlike the "smite-like" maneuvers, they can miss and be wasted.  But that will almost never happen if you have Triple Advantage and Focused Aim.  And the ability to attach a Stunning Strike to them is great.

That said you could just as easily drop one of the reaction abilities for a second smite-like maneuver, or for something like Ambush (as noted in the "choosing your maneuvers" section).




> This is my personal opinion, but yes, I think Monks in general are very weak and useless compare to other classes and I think that this triple advantage multi attacks would finally make him good in party vs other melee classes. However, as I said - I don't like relying on Darkness so much to finally make him do some really nice blending.


I see!

In that case, here's an example of one of the similarly strong combos that the Shadow Monk can do without Darkness:

You grant the entire party Darkvision and then refresh the ki as part of your morning routine, essentially making it a freebie.    Then you use Pass Without Trace to make the entire party stealthy, so that everyone ghosts their way through the Underdark stronghold without resorting to lanterns.

Now that the party has a nigh undetectable scout, they can generally set up before combats with pre-casts.  And since they themselves are also at least moderately difficult to detect, there's a good chance that they'll get a Surprise round.  If they do, you just gave an entire extra turn to the entire team.

You open up your turn with Triple Advantage on your first attack, since you were unseen.  You use that attack to punch your enemy, and have not one but two saves against them granting you Advantage on the rest of your attacks that turn:  Tripping Attack and Stunning Strike.  Then you make the entire rest of your turn at triple advantage.  Then the entire _next_ turn (which would be the first turn for those without a Surprise round) also attacking with Advantage on all of your attacks, if they got Stunned.  And you'd get all of the damage from your teammates exploiting Prone or Stunned, too.  

So not only are you getting a ton of triple advantage attacks, but you're also acting as a force multiplier for your teammates.

It's notable that Darkness, too, can act as a force multiplier for your teammates; it just depends on who they are.




> Please keep in mind this is my personal opinion about monks and since I played Hexblade for 1-17 levels I remember first hand how many issues Darkness cause for party (even with best effort to position yourself) and how big relief it was to finally get SoM. Hexblades using reach weapon also made it a lot easier to position yourself to not interrupt your party too much. But with 5 feet range + 15 feet Darkness it would be a lot trickier or impossible in some fights I had during my first 6 levels.


What should be understood is that problems with Darkness (and obscurement in general) are avoidable.  It's kind of in the same category as shoving:  shoving people prone can interfere with certain characters, like some archers or eldritch blasters.  On the other hand, it can be amazing for melee allies, or non-attack-based kiters.  That doesn't mean that shoving prone is bad, it just means it's not for absolutely every party.  And it doesn't need to be.

I'm in multiple games right now with Darkness users, including one with a Hexblade that we've been playing from level 3-19 (so far).  In that game, the Hexblade makes regular use of Devil's Sight, and the tiefling Wizard regularly uses Darkness and Sculpted Maddening Darkness (as well as other kinds of obscurement, like Sleet Storm and Pyrotechnics.  The party Bard does too).  Not once in that entire long-term, combat-heavy campaign has this ever imposed a problem for the rest of the squad.  I have a similar experience in numerous other games.

With the right party composition and tactics, obscurement not only shouldn't be intefering with your team, but can be a substantial asset for them.

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## Sol0botmate

> I'm in multiple games right now with Darkness users, including one with a Hexblade that we've been playing from level 3-19 (so far).  In that game, the Hexblade makes regular use of Devil's Sight, and the tiefling Wizard regularly uses Darkness and Sculpted Maddening Darkness (as well as other kinds of obscurement, like Sleet Storm and Pyrotechnics.  The party Bard does too).  Not once in that entire long-term, combat-heavy campaign has this ever imposed a problem for the rest of the squad.  I have a similar experience in numerous other games.
> 
> With the right party composition and tactics, obscurement not only shouldn't be intefering with your team, but can be a substantial asset for them.


Parties are different, players are different, DM are different, tactics are different, battles are different. I can see it work for one while totally not working for others. Ones experience does not make (mine included of course) everyones. It works for your party - fine, if everyone try to make it work. In mine where people don't try to combo between each other because everyone has their own idea of how he wants to use his class (we don't play like MMO team on raid) - it's more an issue than help.

So whoever wants to play with Darkness that much will have to judge for himself at his own table.

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## LudicSavant

> Parties are different, players are different, DM are different, tactics are different, battles are different. I can see it work for one while totally not working for others.


Mhm!  I advise that players should always consider their options in the context of their party.




> It works for your party - fine, if everyone try to make it work. In mine where people don't try to combo between each other because everyone has their own idea of how he wants to use his class (we don't play like MMO team on raid) - it's more an issue than help.
> 
> So whoever wants to play with Darkness that much will have to judge for himself at his own table.


I think you might be making it out to be more difficult than it needs to be.  I've had no trouble playing in parties of uncoordinated strangers and using obscurement to great effect, without stepping on the toes of others.

Think of it this way.  Wolf Totem Barbarian 3 is worthless if you're the only melee character in a party.  That doesn't mean "everyone has to try to make it work, with everyone playing like an MMO team on a raid, because they want to play with it that much."  It just means you don't take Wolf Totem Barbarian 3 if you're the only melee character on a team.  That doesn't require the cooperation of anyone on the team but yourself.

There are countless other examples like this.  Prone is a great condition to inflict -- if your team isn't particularly reliant on ranged weapon attacks from beyond 5 feet.  Heavy armor is great -- if you're not the one unstealthy person in the party.  Holy Weapon is a great spell -- if you're not in a party where nobody has so much as Extra Attack.  And so on and so forth.  

This isn't unusual, and it's no more onerous a requirement than ideas like 'hey, I notice that the party doesn't have a healer, maybe I should play one.'

Perhaps also worth noting, it's often the case that it's not even an anti-synergy issue at all, but people just not realizing the extent of how they can take advantage of obscurement.

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## Sol0botmate

> I think you might be making it out to be more difficult than it needs to be.  I've had no trouble playing in parties of uncoordinated strangers and using obscurement to great effect, without stepping on the toes of others.


Again, as I said - experience is different from player to player, from table to table. DnD (or any other paper pen RPG) is not like cRPG in PC where after few months everyone know that "X works best here, Y is meta here, you position yourself during this combat behind this column here etc.". It's not fixed in stone. I played with Darkness enough during more than 1 year playing Hexblade that I know how many troubles it caused and made. My experience is different than yours- just accept it. 

If you go to some past discussions about Darkness-Devil's Sight combo (almost EVERY hexblade thread has that) here or on 3d6 reddit - many people also had it caused more bad than good for their team mates. Yet others said they had no problem with it. Experience is different.

But fact is that Darkness is wonky gimmick that may make or break a combat for your team. People play differently. It's not like Hypnotic Pattern which can only screw your team if you cast it with them in range (simillar to fireball). It's simple to use and to avoid negative impact on team. Darkness mechanic of obscuring vision, removing advantage from your melee heroes, removing OAs from both enemy and your teammates (Warcaster teammates), preventing team casters from casting certain spells or Counterspelling, healing teammate who is sadly inside range of darkness (and has fallen there) because you or him didn't position well or he was moved there by enemy actions like attacks with knockback and so on is a lot more complicatated than that. And battle area means a lot. Not to mention action economy.

Sure it may be easy for you, me, a mechanic min-maxers and for other players who think and analyse like us, play with us and like to spend after and before session time to think how to combo between each other etc. - but many other players are just casuals and Darkness is one of those things that is double edge sword and depends highly on many factors. And they just come to session and play as they see best (which is most cases is nothing optimal at all). Many players have trouble following 5e movement mechanics even after year of playing, not to mention all stuff about vision, obscurment etc. For more casual party it may cause way more trouble than help. I know it first hand.

Lets just agree to disagee because you won't convience me, nor I will convience you. We will just stay as examples of how same mechanic can have different impact on party gameplay. It's a good thing for others to learn. 

Without Darkness your Monk build is still good. *It's a good monk build.* But it is still a Monk, which can do nice stuff, but nothing really amazing.

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## Evaar

> I played with Darkness enough during more than 1 year playing Hexblade that I know how many troubles it caused and made.


I think it's worth noting that the Monk's extra movement speed can cure many of the problems a Hexblade's team might be having with Darkness.

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## Sol0botmate

> I think it's worth noting that the Monk's extra movement speed can cure many of the problems a Hexblade's team might be having with Darkness.


Hexblade with reach weapon can also move quite a lot. Even 30 speed + 10 feet reach + not OAs is often enough. But good positioning is not always possible. And remember - you positioning well doesn't mean that you team mates will remember to always position yourself accordingly just becasue you decided to cast Darkness. Enemies may also force players to end up in position where the only thing that really makes it difficult to turn around battle is not enemy action -but your Darkness. 

Again - I am not saying it can't work, because it can. But Darkness is wonky mechanic that can be double edged sword and many times -  is. Hence why once you get Shadow of Moil - you never use Darkness again. Darkness in Tier 2+ is also easy to dispel/counter or many creatures can see through it thanks to other senses.

Hence why it works so well on Hexblade because you use it pretty much only on first 6 levels. Then you have better tools to replace it. Or on range builds that can sit back and don't bother anyone to play around their Darkness gimmick.

I am 100% sure that some parties can play around it and get a great success, but some struggle with it, especially if it's casual team that don't think super duper mechanical-tactical during every encounter, which is 100% fine too.

It's just worth to mention all the downsides of Darkness combo and weight pros and cons yourself.

It's simillar to grapple mechanic into hazard spells - it's great on paper but if your party doesn't want to play that way and just want to cast fireball instead of Wall of Fire or Call Lighting instead of Spike Growth? Then it's just you doing grapple and wrongly assuming that everyone will try to fit their tactics into yours. Why other players do that? Because they can, it's their characters. They prefer different playstyle. And it's totally fine gameplay too! Many combos are great but only if everyone play around it. Darkness is one of those.

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## Evaar

> I am 100% sure that some parties can play around it and get a great success, but some struggle with it, especially if it's casual team that don't think super duper mechanical-tactical during every encounter, which is 100% fine too.


Totally. I would also argue that Ludic's builds are not suitable for a campaign of casual people who aren't tactically minded. At best, you'd very likely overshadow them and/or have problems actually using abilities reliant on synergies. At worst, you're basically playing a completely different game from the rest of the party.

I would say Ludic's builds are for more advanced groups. Those sorts of groups should have a decent grasp of how to play around darkness. But it's on people reading this thread to identify whether these builds are appropriate for their group.

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## Sol0botmate

> Totally. I would also argue that Ludic's builds are not suitable for a campaign of casual people who aren't tactically minded. A


Ow, many of his builds are self-sufficient and don't need whole team to play around it. His Nuclear Wizard, his Ancestral Tank, his Celestial Warlock build or Samurai Sharpshooter or his Mark of Warding Abjurer or Iron Wizard - all do their thing without relying on team at all. They are totally fine in casual gameplay because team doesn't have to go tactical with you. You do your job and that's it.

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## Skylivedk

> Hexblade with reach weapon can also move quite a lot. Even 30 speed + 10 feet reach + not OAs is often enough. But good positioning is not always possible. And remember - you positioning well doesn't mean that you team mates will remember to always position yourself accordingly just becasue you decided to cast Darkness. Enemies may also force players to end up in position where the only thing that really makes it difficult to turn around battle is not enemy action -but your Darkness.


I also chose reach over the extra damage on my Hexblade. I didn't go for PAM which is popular though (action economy clog). I didn't have a major problem playing through ToA and Rise of Tiamat and I think I only used SoM once or twice all the way to level 17. 

Reasons:
1) most of my group was fairly experienced and had ways of using Darkness themselves (grappling and summons/minions with blindsense, targeting other enemies etc).

2) I had ways of storing my Darkness object pretty easily (in the beginning it would often be cast on a small tooth in a necklace which could be put in my characters mouth and stored under the tongue). That allowed my character to turn Darkness on and off every turn without losing the spell.

3) We didn't use it all the time.

4) most often it wouldn't be my Hexblade casting it and when it was, it was usually from the daily racial.



> Again - I am not saying it can't work, because it can. But Darkness is wonky mechanic that can be double edged sword and many times -  is. Hence why once you get Shadow of Moil - you never use Darkness again. Darkness in Tier 2+ is also easy to dispel/counter or many creatures can see through it thanks to other senses.


I didn't like Shadow of Moil. I found it way too expensive. 4th level spell and 1 minute duration + it doesn't hide your Armor of Agathys, meh, so for me it was reversed: I tried SoM just when I got it and then almost never again.




> It's just worth to mention all the downsides of Darkness combo and weight pros and cons yourself.


Did you want more guide space on Darkness? 




> It's simillar to grapple mechanic into hazard spells - it's great on paper but if your party doesn't want to play that way and just want to cast fireball instead of Wall of Fire or Call Lighting instead of Spike Growth? Then it's just you doing grapple and wrongly assuming that everyone will try to fit their tactics into yours. Why other players do that? Because they can, it's their characters. They prefer different playstyle. And it's totally fine gameplay too! Many combos are great but only if everyone play around it. Darkness is one of those.


It's a team game. Of course you can play it like it isn't, but it does make a whole bunch of characters a lot less fun and effective. I wouldn't want to play with a group that was in exercise in herding kittens unless we had talked about it in season 0.

I don't really understand why you are so hung up on Darkness in this build. I don't want to play the build because of Darkness. I want to play it because it has a lot of options while giving good damage (especially for a monk) and decision points compared to other Martials. I find silence almost as attractive. It is a pretty strong lich killer (if you can either cast unseen or have a team mate burn the reaction). Silence+grapple usually equates turning a lich from an enemy to a puppy snack.

A bit like the Hexvoker is so much more than magic missile, the Shadow Monk here brings a mix of DPR, control and outside combat tools. To each his/her/their own though :-)

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## Sol0botmate

> A bit like the Hexvoker is so much more than magic missile, the Shadow Monk here brings a mix of DPR, control and outside combat tools. To each his/her/their own though :-)


Difference is that Hexvoker main combo works 99% of time and is almost impossible to counter + it's very action effective and doesn't require any flexing from your team. Self sufficient combo. But you are correct- each to his own :). Don't let opinion of others influence your decision whenever you want to play one build or not :).

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## Skylivedk

> Difference is that Hexvoker main combo works 99% of time and is almost impossible to counter + it's very action effective and doesn't require any flexing from your team. Self sufficient combo. But you are correct- each to his own :). Don't let opinion of others influence your decision whenever you want to play one build or not :).


1. My point was that it is limited to see a build in terms of "a main combo". Outside white room exercises (which I gladly participate in as well), relying on one such combo is usually bad.

2. It doesn't work even close to 99% of the time. It is countered by Shield, and funny enough, Darkness and other LoS negators.

3. Darkness in my group was positive for most of the group almost always. Negating line of sight made it much easier for the backline and with no other sources of advantage, it was the same for the melee characters. The biggest issue was that all the bloody descriptions of eviscerating enemies got lost since I was only allowed to do them, when people could see me :D it got a bit trite to say "you hear the swoosh of blades, a quelled scream of pain and see a head roll out of the cloud of darkness"(sometimes substituted with: and see a thick pool of blood spread from the dark cloud of murder). 

Also, yikes I racked up edge lord points faster than the anti-hero in an anime.

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## Sol0botmate

> 2. It doesn't work even close to 99% of the time. It is countered by Shield, and funny enough, Darkness and other LoS negators.


Counterspell. 

True Seeing.

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## Eldariel

> Hexblade with reach weapon can also move quite a lot. Even 30 speed + 10 feet reach + not OAs is often enough. But good positioning is not always possible. And remember - you positioning well doesn't mean that you team mates will remember to always position yourself accordingly just becasue you decided to cast Darkness. Enemies may also force players to end up in position where the only thing that really makes it difficult to turn around battle is not enemy action -but your Darkness. 
> 
> Again - I am not saying it can't work, because it can. But Darkness is wonky mechanic that can be double edged sword and many times -  is. Hence why once you get Shadow of Moil - you never use Darkness again. Darkness in Tier 2+ is also easy to dispel/counter or many creatures can see through it thanks to other senses.
> 
> Hence why it works so well on Hexblade because you use it pretty much only on first 6 levels. Then you have better tools to replace it. Or on range builds that can sit back and don't bother anyone to play around their Darkness gimmick.
> 
> I am 100% sure that some parties can play around it and get a great success, but some struggle with it, especially if it's casual team that don't think super duper mechanical-tactical during every encounter, which is 100% fine too.
> 
> It's just worth to mention all the downsides of Darkness combo and weight pros and cons yourself.
> ...


As a free action you can turn Darkness off (keep it in a pouch, take Use Item action to close or cover the pouch at the end of your turn for instance). Then you can start it again on your next turn. This is generally what I do if my party has lots of characters who rely on targeted effects. Worst case scenario, you can always end Concentration as a free action, but generally you can use the Darkness shuffle to keep it off every other turn and use movement for the other turn. This can be combined with readied actions from allies for minimal inconvenience...though of course this cuts to the defensive benefits your Darkness offers (but you still get full offensive benefits).

----------


## Skylivedk

> Counterspell. 
> 
> True Seeing.


Counterspell is a level 3 spell with 60 range.

True seeing is a level 6 spell and doesn't work against hiding or full cover.

Your game experience is definitely different than mine if this equates a 99% probability of being able to spam HBC MM.

Being dragged into a Silenced area (especially by a Shadow Monk clad in darkness) will also do the trick (and do the Hexvoker in most probably).

I love the Hexvoker build as well mind you. I just love it because it does a lot of things great and a few things exceptionally. If either HBC MM or Darkness was the only strong part to either build, I wouldn't like any of them.

----------


## Sol0botmate

> Counterspell is a level 3 spell with 60 range.
> 
> True seeing is a level 6 spell and doesn't work against hiding or full cover.
> 
> Your game experience is definitely different than mine if this equates a 99% probability of being able to spam HBC MM.
> 
> Being dragged into a Silenced area (especially by a Shadow Monk clad in darkness) will also do the trick (and do the Hexvoker in most probably).
> 
> I love the Hexvoker build as well mind you. I just love it because it does a lot of things great and a few things exceptionally. If either HBC MM or Darkness was the only strong part to either build, I wouldn't like any of them.


You use Curse + EE + MM combo on bosses mostly. You don't spam it because it's boss combo. You want to kill ONE henchman with it? Lol. On level 1-5 how many bosses have invisibility or Shield spell apart from casters? Once you have counterspell - enemy caster/caster boss can be counterspelled if he uses Shield. Since he used reaction - he can't counterspell your counterspell. True Seeing is level 6 spell but lasts 1 hour. If enemy tries to cast Darkess/Invisibility/Greater Invisibility - you can still just Counterspell it. In worst case scenario if enemy already is invisibile, you can Dispel it. After than you get True Sight, later Simulacrum. It's waaay more reliable combo than Darknes, easier to use, to pull off and getting pay off.  Not to mention it doesn't work against your party at all. And it's much more Action effective, allowing you to deal full combo in first turn.




> As a free action you can turn Darkness off (keep it in a pouch, take Use Item action to close or cover the pouch at the end of your turn for instance). Then you can start it again on your next turn. This is generally what I do if my party has lots of characters who rely on targeted effects. Worst case scenario, you can always end Concentration as a free action, but generally you can use the Darkness shuffle to keep it off every other turn and use movement for the other turn. This can be combined with readied actions from allies for minimal inconvenience...though of course this cuts to the defensive benefits your Darkness offers (but you still get full offensive benefits).


I would like to end this discussion about Darkness as it's getting really old at this point and this thread is not really a place to drag it longer. But in your example you lose two full turns. First one to use action to cast it and then another one to recast it after you turned that off. I am sure you would do overall more damage if you just attack in all 3 turns instead of wasting two of them to cast and recast Darkness.

But let's drop this subject. It already took two pages in this thread....

----------


## borg286

I humbly request my build be added to the original list of supplementary builds
Aberrant Mind Sorlock: A Renaissance Man

----------


## LudicSavant

> I humbly request my build be added to the original list of supplementary builds
> Aberrant Mind Sorlock: A Renaissance Man


Sure thing!

Just updated the first page with links for the Modern Gun-Kata Master, the Way of the Demonweb Spider, and aaaaall of the following:

The Cheese Grater by SkylivedkGrapple Bard: My Shield is Here ForYou by PancakeMaster80The Platinum-Tongued Diplomat by LegospasmAll-In Persuasion by LegospasmGuardian Angel/Party Pleaser by LegospasmThe Lord Marshall by Citadel97501The Naked Dragon by jojoskullThe Arcane Blade by BendkingThe Holy Avenger by BendkingThe Holy Protector by BendkingHeroforge 2 models of Eclectic Builds by Draz74The Alien Ant Farm by ftafpThe Hecatoncheires by ftafpThe Magnetic Pauldron (AKA: Tech Support) by ftafpIlliquar the Tentacular by ftafpKermit the Slaad by ftafpThe Level 14 Aristocrat by ftafpThe Crystal-Covered Crusher by Draz74The Hobgoblin Steel Sorcerer by BendkingThe Rune Knight Bully by MitchellnotesThe Psychic Master by BendkingThe Trunk Tank by Sol0botmateThe Heavy Artillerist by ftafpBob the Builder by ZaileThe Überflumph by ftafpThe Aberrant Mind Sorlock: A Renaissance Man by borg286
Please let me know if I missed anyone's build and I'll add it!

----------


## Jon talks a lot

Hey ludic, for the coast druid build, should you start cleric and multiclass druid or vice versa? And also, what are the best healing spells in the druid spell list.
Thank you

----------


## LudicSavant

> what are the best healing spells in the druid spell list.


With the Life Cleric dip, all of these healing spells are great:

Aura of Vitality (added by Tasha's) and Healing Spirit (XGtE) -- just a ton of hit points with the Life Cleric dip 
Goodberry -- especially good if you cast it with leftover spell slots at the _end_ of an adventuring day (cuz they last to tomorrow)
Regenerate -- 1 hour of Concentration free 10 hit points / round
Healing Word -- action economy efficient way to pick up people at zero
Heal -- Burst heal / status cure




> Hey ludic, for the coast druid build, should you start cleric and multiclass druid or vice versa?


I'd pick Cleric for level 1, though it shouldn't make a huge difference either way.

----------


## Jon talks a lot

Thank you!

----------


## Sol0botmate

A fun build I made today for friend, but I will post it anyway. Extremely tanky and sticky tank with very good DPR.

*
"Smoll Panzer Smith"*



*Basic (Melee Version):*


*Race*: KOBOLD! 
*Class*: Artificer level 12/1 Fighter
*Subclass*: Battle Smith
*Attributes*: 14 DEX, 14 CON, 17 INT
*ASI*: Fey Touched +1 INT (spell: Hunter's Mark), Polearm Master, Sentinel, +2 INT
*Fighting Style: Dueling* (NOTE: If your DM considers direct sunlight any sort of sunlight not matter if you are in forest, during rainy day etc. then take Blind Fighting to counter Sensitivity. Ask your DM!)
*Infusions*: Enhanced Defense, Enhanced Weapon, Replicate Magic Item (Cloak of Protection), Repulsion Shield
*Weapons*: spear + shield
*Spell-Storing Item*: Warding Bond
*Attune to 4 items*

*Basic (Range Version):*
*ASI*: Fey Touched +1 INT (spell: Hunter's Mark), Crossbow Master, Sharpshooter, +2 INT
*Infusions*: Enhanced Defense, Repeating Shot, Replicate Magic Item (Cloak of Protection), Repulsion Shield
*Fighting Style:* Archery

*Ok, so how does it work:* 

1. You are Kobold and you have Pact Tactics, meaning you attack with advantage _"if at least one of your allies is within 5 feet of the creature and the ally isn't incapacitated."_ As a Battle Smith with Steel Defender *you pretty much have permanent advantage to all attacks* 

2. With Fey Touched feat you learn Hunter's Mark, which allows *you to deal extra 1d6 weapon dmg to enemy, boosting your multi-attack sequence*. As a bonus you also get Misty Step.

3. While wearing Enchanced Half Plate +2 + Repulsion Shield + Cloack of Protection + having Warding Bond on you: *you have 24 base AC, which can be boosted to whooping 29 AC with Shield spell. It can go up to 26 AC with Haste and 31 AC with Haste and Shield*

4. Since Errata: your Steel Defender can use Spell-Storing Item, casting 1 hour lasting Warding Bond on you, which required no concentration, ginving you *Resistance To All Damage, +1 to AC and saving throws*

5. Since your Steel Defender is always next to you and you have Sentinel feat- every time someone tries to attack it instead of you - you get extra attack using your reaction. They also can't Disengage from you or move out of your reach because with OA you reduce their speed to 0, making you very sticky. Also your Steel Defender can use it's reaction to cause one enemy attack against you to have disadvantage.* Effectively you force opponent to either bang its head against your very high AC of 24-29 + damage resistance + one disadvantage on one its attacks or try to hit your Steel Defender which will give you extra attack as reaction, boosting you up to 4 attacks per turn. Also because you have Polearm Master for bonus action attack - your Defender will pretty much take only Dodge actions in combat, making ALL enemy attacks to have disadvantage*.

1 level of Fighter is to take Dueling to give you another +2 dmg per attack, considering you should have on average 3, up to 4 attacks per turn: it adds up nicely. But you can skip it.

*To Sum it up:*

You engage enemy (preferably the Boss) with your Steel Defender who casted before Warding Bond on you, who takes Dodge Action in combat. You have 24 AC, Resistance to All Damage and option to boost it to 29 AC + one of enemy attacks will have disadvantage. Enemy can't Disengage from you because of Sentinel (and you have advantage on that OA as well). It can attack either you, trying to beat your AC + Resistance or attack your Steel Defender with disadvantage, giving you extra attack as reaction. You on the other hand have potential of attacking him 2x (2d6 + 8) + 1d4 + 1d6 + 8 + 2d6 Jolting Bolt + extra 2d6 + 8 if he triggers Sentinel. All with advantage thanks to Pack Tactics.

Warding Bond makes you Steel Defender to take dmg you take, but it does not end Warding Bond, it does not trigger concentration check, it's already halfed by resistance + hitting you is extremely hard + repairing Steel Defender is easy. And Steel Defender has respectable HP so don't worry about it.

*Example DPR vs AC 20 enemy*, on first turn if enemy enters your range or attacks your Steel Defender (you casted Hunter's Mark as bonus action). We are using Spear +2, 18 INT and Dueling. We attack with advantage because of Steel Defender.

*45 DPR first turn if Sentinel is triggered*
If enemy triggers Sentinel on the following turn the DPR increases to *58 DPR* since now we can also attack with full attack sequence .

This respectable DPR vs AC 20 for a tank.

*Once we have access to level 3 spells we can also use Haste. Boosting our AC to 26!*

Our DPR won't be much different. Vs AC 20 enemy if we can attack 5 times (3 attacks + Bonus Action + Reaction +2d6 Jolt) our DPR is 54 vs 58 with Hunter's Mark on following turn. But AC boost can be useful vs really high bonus enemies like +10 to hit. Wit Haste they would need min. of 16 roll to hit you! It's always an option.

*Higher Levels and Multiclass Options:*

On higher levels we get some really good stuff as Battle Smith Artificer, like Fire Shield (now if enemy dares to attack us they will take 2d8 cold or fire damage) and Improved Defender, boosting our Arcane Joly to 4d6 + our Defender reaction now deals 1d4 + 5 dmg each turn. Both boost our DPR vs AC 20 enemy to

*60 DPR* first turn if Sentinel or PAM reaction attack is triggered
With Sentinel Attack + Full 3 attacks + Hunter's Mark + Jolting Bolt + Defender reaction 1d4 + INT: *74 DPR*

Higher Battle Smith levels also boosts your Defender HP, which is nice if he has to tank with us.

As Artificer on higher levels you also can attune to 6 items and on level 18. 

Level 20 you probably will never achieve but +6 to all saves sounds nice. 

The good multiclass options are:

1. Fighter dip for Fighting Style
2. War Magic Wizard for extra slots, spells, AC bonus, Initiative bonus.


*Range Version, Crossbow Slinger:* 

*There is an option to build it for range weapon, using Reapeating Shot instead of Enchanced Weapon and taking Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter on level 8 and 12 + Archery Style on Fighter.*

This would allow you to still go to melee range (since you have no penalty in 5 feet range thanks to XBE) and still attack with advantage thanks to Pact Tactics with your Defender or attack from distance enemies who already engaged. But for me such high AC class is wasted on range position. You should be in front and hope to engage as many enemies as possible. XBE allows  you to do it.

But for the sake of comparsion, when attacking enemy of AC 20 with Light Crossbow using Sharpshooter + Haste you can achieve DPR Of 52 if you attack with 3 attacks with Haste + Bonus Action attack. VS AC 18 that dmg will be bumped to 60 DPR.

It's an option and it will also work. The advantage (hah!) is that range version can attack from distance while still having shield (becasue of Repeating Shot) and can still fight in melee range. The disadvantage is that you lose Sentinel and you absolutely NEED that Archery fighting style, so dip is A MUST, not an option.

That's it I guess.

----------


## carrdrivesyou

I give you: The Necessary Evil


"I've never felt any particular guilt about my contracts. My employers killed them. My body was only the tool they used. If you kill a man with a gun, do you hold the gun responsible?  Not every action performed by my body is a result of conscious choices. I take responsibility for those that are. Humans often believe in a soul distinct from the body. A spirit responsible for moral reasoning that lives on after the body's death. Our beliefs are just a bit more literal."


Race: Custom Lineage "Elf" (take darkvision option)
Class: Rogue Assassin 3 / Grave Cleric 17
Background: Acolyte
Starting Attributes: 8, 15, 13, 10, 18, 10
Starting Feat: Shadow Touched (Bring Wisdom to 18, Gain Invisibility and Inflict Wounds)
Skills: Stealth, Investigation, Perception, Insight, Religion, Deception, Sleight of Hand (Acrobatics if you take Skill Expert)
Expertise: Stealth, Thieves' Tools, (Perception with Skill Expert)
Ending Attributes: 8, 18, 13, 10, 20, 10

ASIs:
Cleric 4: Elven Accuracy (if allowed, Otherwise Skill Expert; bring DEX to 16)
Cleric 8: +2 WIS
Cleric 12: +2 DEX
Cleric 16: Metamagic Adept (Subtle and Distant)



The concept is to be the creepiest priest ever, who also happens to master assassination arts.  Always quoting scriptures or making quick prayers to whatever deity is relevant at the time.  We aren't the toughest or smartest, but we don't need to be.  We are perceptive and think well on our feet.


Start out with 3 levels of Rogue, and take the Assassin subclass.  This will get you the keystone of the build, Assassinate, as well as 2 bits of expertise, 2d6 sneak attack, and a bunch of skills.  Up to this point, just play a rogue and try to keep your head down until the gods bless you at 4th level, wherein we take our first level of cleric.  And because we are a creepy person that constantly quotes holy verses while saving our friends and eliminating others, we are going Grave Domain.  

Always on our list of prepared spells is Inflict Wounds and Guiding Bolt.  The smite buttons as we refer to them.  Inflict Wounds stays on our list because of Shadow Touched and we can use it in our regular spell slots, clearing up a preparation for something like Healing Word or Bless for our friends.

From here, when we get the drop on someone and can get assassinate off, we are using one of these spells. Because the Assassinate ability works with any attack and not specifically a weapon attack, these spells become our bread and butter.  Sneak Attack will largely be ignored at this point.  Zap the target for 6d10 necrotic or 8d6 radiant, then merge back into the shadows, waiting for the party to catch up, or to get the heck out of there.  

At 5th level, we get the other cornerstone of this build - Channel Divinity: Path to the Grave.  This allows us to make the target vulnerable to ALL damage until the end of our next turn, but is consumed on ANY hit.  This effectively doubles our damage output with Assassinate, and we can now deal 12d10 necrotic or 16d6 radiant to a single target at 5th level with a single 1st level spell slot.  

As we increase in level, we get higher level slots, that add no less than 2 damage dice to our signature ability per leveled slot.  

Maths:
Inflict Wounds = 3d10 Necrotic
Assassination = Auto Crit
Path to the Grave = Vulnerability
(3d10)2)2 = (6d10)*2 = 12d10 = 12 to 120 damage, average of 132/2 = 66

At 20th level, using an 9th level spell slot:

Inflict Wounds = 3d10 + 8(1d10) = 11d10 base damage
Assassination = Auto Crit
Path to the Grave = Vulnerability
(11d10)2)2 = (22d10)*2 = 44d10 = 44 to 440 damage, average of 484/2 = 242

The downside is that we have 1 ultra smite per short rest, although I can scarcely imagine needing more.  

Additionally, You have Invisibility 1/LR starting at 1st level, that we will be using throughout the game.  We will abuse this to use Path to the Grave (neither a spell nor an attack, invisibility remains), to remain undetected while we set up our attack.  Also, with Metamagic, we can do this from 30ft away, or while in disguise/under cover.  


Pros:
1. Solid damage when you get the drop on opponents, often just removing one person/creature, or at the very least severely injuring them.
2. You have all the delightful skills of the rogue, matched with the full casting power of a cleric.
3. We get eyes of the grave so we don't waste a spell on a disguised lich or other necrotic resistant enemy.
4. Lots of RP to be had with this one.
5. Guiding Bolt can smite from 240ft away.
6. Your assassination attempts have triple advantage if allowed to take Elven Accuracy.

Cons:
1. You are kinda squishy.  I recommend using Cunning Action to retreat after the initial attack.
2. Your DM **WILL** hate you.
3. This takes some coordination with the rest of the party.
4. You are filling two primary roles with this build, the healer and the thief.  Make sure someone else can get you back on your feet if things go poorly.
5. You really won't have much talking to do, despite your awesome quotes, because of low CHA.  Be mindful of that.

----------


## bendking

> -snip-


Sunlight Sensitivity is a big deal for Kobolds. Unless you're constantly fighting in dim-light/darkness (which you most certainly can't ensure), I suggest you take Blind Fighting instead of Dueling to counter-act that weakness. Also, Dueling doesn't work with Hand Crossbow so I'm not sure what that achieves you anyway.
Another issue is that besides Sentinel, I don't see what makes you a good target for the enemies on the melee version, which is a crucial trait of a tank. If I were on Team Monster I would almost certainly ignore your presence on the battlefield, because your AC is ridiculously high and your DPR / battlefield control is middling. I think the range version should be the default version of the build, since CBE + SS + Pack Tactics + Blind Fighting makes your 'melee' DPR pretty brutal.

----------


## Sol0botmate

> Sunlight Sensitivity is a big deal for Kobolds. Unless you're constantly fighting in dim-light/darkness (which you most certainly can't ensure), I suggest you take Blind Fighting instead of Dueling to counter-act that weakness. Also, Dueling doesn't work with Hand Crossbow so I'm not sure what that achieves you anyway.
> Another issue is that besides Sentinel, I don't see what makes you a good target for the enemies on the melee version, which is a crucial trait of a tank. If I were on Team Monster I would almost certainly ignore your presence on the battlefield, because your AC is ridiculously high and your DPR / battlefield control is middling. I think the range version should be the default version of the build, since CBE + SS + Pack Tactics + Blind Fighting makes your 'melee' DPR pretty brutal.


Actually it's not that bad because it only works "in direct sunlight". Not in day as overall. Days can be cloudy, rainy, days during fall, winter or day inside forest, city etc. DIRECT sunlight does not happen that often. Especially considering that not that much combat happens during middle of summer day on flat open area. At least that is my experience. 

And considering pack tactics, at that rare scenario - all you will suffer is just normal attack instead of advantage since Pact Tactics cancel with Sensitivity. But yeah, you can go Blind Fighting. Builds are meant to be tweaked.

As for ignoring me- my DMs and myself don't limit people like that. We know that players with high AC/high HP want to serve for the team as tanks. It's 5e shortage that in theory everyone can just ignore a heavy armored and armed guy in front of them "becasue he has high AC" (like he knows that other guy will have lower one....). But we don't make every enemies meta-guys knowing 5e mechanics and being tactical masters at hex battle mini-map ignoring multi attack heavy armored enemy with steel golem next to it trying to hack their guts out. As I said in my post it's a build for a friend from our RPG cricle so he will be fine at front tanking. You can tweak it to fit your table play style. As I mentioned in Darkness discussion - we have casual players as majority and we don't hardcore play tactical with enemies being our DM extension in mechanical mastery of tactical 5e combat, forcing players to only go for "actual tank builds" to be able to feel like big tanks in front of team.

Dueling is for PAM version. Archery should be for range version. I will fix it. Thanks for notice.

----------


## LudicSavant

> Actually it's not that bad because it only works "in direct sunlight". Not in day as overall. Days can be cloudy, rainy, days during fall, winter or day inside forest, city etc. DIRECT sunlight does not happen that often. Especially considering that not that much combat happens during middle of summer day on flat open area. At least that is my esperience.


If your DM allows that, great, but I wouldn't count on that as a given.  Direct in such a context often means "proceeding in a straight line or by the shortest course; straight; undeviating; not oblique.  ex: _a direct route_."  A cloudy day doesn't actually stop you from being in direct sunlight. You're just in a slightly lesser quantity of direct sunlight.

----------


## Sol0botmate

> If your DM allows that, great, but I wouldn't count on that as a given.  Direct in such a context generally means "proceeding in a straight line or by the shortest course; straight; undeviating; not oblique.  ex: _a direct route_."  A cloudy day doesn't actually stop you from being in direct sunlight.  You're just in a slightly lesser quantity of direct sunlight.


It's a matter of interpretation, becaue rules don't really explain what direct sunlight means (simillar to like in Barovia day is not night but actually a day and it's not darkness also but it's dark and cloudy enough to not harm vampires) - so just ask your DM. Blind Fighting is always an option. But for me if it was any sunlight, they would just go with "sunlight" instead of "direct sunlight". Worst case scenario - you attack normally.

----------


## LudicSavant

> It's a matter of interpretation, becaue rules don't really explain what direct sunlight means (simillar to like in Barovia day is not night but actually a day and it's not darkness also but it's dark and cloudy enough to not harm vampires) - so just ask your DM. Blind Fighting is always an option. But for me if it was any sunlight, they would just go with "sunlight" instead of "direct sunlight". Worst case scenario - you attack normally.


Barovia's sun does not cast "real" sunlight due to 'the influence of dark powers.'  Vampires can sunbathe in Barovia, whether it's cloudy or not.  It is a specific and well-established exception.  Note that it doesn't even say 'direct sunlight.'  It just says that it's _not sunlight._

But regarding the more general case yes, it's a matter of interpretation, which is why I wouldn't just count on it as a given.

----------


## Sol0botmate

> But regarding the more general case yes, it's a matter of interpretation, which is why I wouldn't just count on it as a given.


True. I will add note about DM interpretation.

----------


## Lavaeolus

Harshest RAW read:



> You have disadvantage on attack rolls [...] when you, the target of your attack, or whatever you are trying to perceive is in direct sunlight.


Blind Fighting gives you blindsight. But... it doesn't actually stop you or the target of your attack being in direct sunlight.

"But it stops you relying on sight!"

Well, I'm giving the harshest read I think a DM could reasonably give, and you can read Sunlight Sensitivity in two ways:

You have disadvantage on [attack rolls and on Wisdom (Perception) checks] that rely on sight...You have disadvantage on [*attack rolls*] and on [*Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight*]...
The thing is... attack rolls that rely on sight aren't really _a thing_. Perception checks that rely on sight, sure. But attack rolls never require or rely on sight, there are just rules to impose disadvantage on them under certain conditions related to whether you can see your enemy.

Am I playing semantics? Maybe. But it squares with the Blinded condition which, as separate bullet points, 1) gives automatic failure on any ability check "that requires sight", and 2) grants blanket disadvantage on any attack roll.

"But that doesn't really make sense."

Sunlight Sensitivity can be read in a way that's a bit like allergy to sunlight, although the Kobold's description only ever mentions that "their eyes are sensitive to sunlight". But, sure, that's a matter of flavour and if you're inclined to say Sunlight Sensivity is just a matter of eyesight: yeah, making Blind Fighting a way to bypass it is certainly _sensible_. But if you do say it's more than that or really stick to RAW, then maybe not.

----------


## Sol0botmate

> Harshest RAW read:But attack rolls never require or rely on sight, there are just rules to impose disadvantage on them under certain conditions related to whether you can see your enemy.
> 
> Am I playing semantics? Maybe. But it squares with the Blinded condition which, as separate bullet points, 1) gives automatic failure on any ability check "that requires sight", and 2) grants blanket disadvantage on any attack roll.


You do play semantics. Attack rolls do rely on sight. That is why when you are in Darkness you have disadvantage, when someone is invisible you have disadvantage, when you fight smeone who is heavy obscured- you have disadvantage. Or when you attack someone in the dark outside of your Darkvision range - you have disadvantage.

And that is why you do not have disadvantage if you have: Tremoresense that relies on ground vibration or Blindsight which uses other senses than sight (smell, echolocation, hearing etc.).

----------


## Lavaeolus

> You do play semantics. Attack rolls do rely on sight. That is why when you are in Darkness you have disadvantage, when someone is invisible you have disadvantage, when you fight smeone who is heavy obscured- you have disadvantage. Or when you attack someone in the dark outside of your Darkvision range - you have disadvantage.
> 
> And that is why you do not have disadvantage if you have: Tremoresense that relies on ground vibration or Blindsight which uses other senses than sight (smell, echolocation, hearing etc.).


You're missing my point. Yes, sight can come into play into an attack roll: but the system never describes it in terms of "relies on sight". "Wisdom (Perception) check that relies on X" _is_, however, a common wording. For example, found on maistiff, werewolf and various other creatures:



> *Keen Hearing and Smell*. The [whatever] has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing or smell.


Or the hawk:



> *Keen Sight*. The hawk has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.


To round off the senses, Keen Hearing and Keen Smell (on tigers at least) can be not grouped together:



> *Keen Hearing*. The bat has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing.


Or as mentioned, the blinded condition:



> A blinded creature cant see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.


I am saying "Y ability check that relies on X" is a common wording structure, but if _this_ is to be read as "attack rolls that rely on sight", it's the only such instance in any D&D book -- lending credence to the idea that the second reading might be RAI.

----------


## ftafp

> What should be understood is that problems with Darkness (and obscurement in general) are avoidable.  It's kind of in the same category as shoving:  shoving people prone can interfere with certain characters, like some archers or eldritch blasters.  On the other hand, it can be amazing for melee allies, or non-attack-based kiters.  That doesn't mean that shoving prone is bad, it just means it's not for absolutely every party.  And it doesn't need to be.
> 
> I'm in multiple games right now with Darkness users, including one with a Hexblade that we've been playing from level 3-19 (so far).  In that game, the Hexblade makes regular use of Devil's Sight, and the tiefling Wizard regularly uses Darkness and Sculpted Maddening Darkness (as well as other kinds of obscurement, like Sleet Storm and Pyrotechnics.  The party Bard does too).  Not once in that entire long-term, combat-heavy campaign has this ever imposed a problem for the rest of the squad.  I have a similar experience in numerous other games.
> 
> With the right party composition and tactics, obscurement not only shouldn't be intefering with your team, but can be a substantial asset for them.


how exactly are you using darkness? I've been meaning to do an obscurement build for a while now but I can't actually find much on tactics besides using it as a distraction or cutting off the line of sight of ranged attackers. Do most obscurement builds just amount to standing at the edge and intercepting enemies who come through?

----------


## LudicSavant

> how exactly are you using darkness? I've been meaning to do an obscurement build for a while now but I can't actually find much on tactics besides using it as a distraction or cutting off the line of sight of ranged attackers. Do most obscurement builds just amount to standing at the edge and intercepting enemies who come through?


Did you check out the "know your spells" section of the Way of the Demonweb Spider build?  I had some examples in there, though I can give more if folks want me to.

*Edit*
Note that in many cases 'block off line of sight for ranged attackers' doesn't really work because it just makes Advantage and Disadvantage cancel out.  Exception is if they are out of range to hear you (can't find your square), or it is helping people Hide, or if they have something that makes it not cancel out (like Alert, Wildhunt Shifter, True Seeing, Devil's Sight, Wildshaping into a spider, etc etc).  It also _does_ totally screw over enemies like Beholders who depend heavily on "an enemy you can see" abilities.  It also gives your party a way to "avert their gaze" without anyone getting Disadvantage for doing so (because of the "cancel out" effect).  Oh, and that cancel out effect can even do things like help a Ranged Attack ally shoot a foe from longer range (e.g. where they would normally have Disadvantage) without hindrance.

Speaking of "out of range to hear you," while there are no rules for audible range in any of the books (AFAIK), there actually _is_ a chart of 'guidelines' for it on the official DM Screen.  But not in the DMG.  For some reason.

An important note is that you don't just cast Darkness on someone, you cast it on an object that you can then move around and cover/uncover with object interactions.  It (usually) shouldn't just be placed on a point like Fog Cloud.

----------


## ftafp

> Did you check out the "know your spells" section of the Way of the Demonweb Spider build?  I had some examples in there, though I can give more.


I did look through it. You have a lot of really good examples of ways to use it to negate enemy advantages, but I'm curious about ways to avoid also negating the advantages of your allies. I might be having a bit of a brain fart but I assume if you're doing an obscurement build you're going to assume that most battles are going to involve obscurement even if your enemies don't have the upper hand

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## LudicSavant

> I did look through it. You have a lot of really good examples of ways to use it to negate enemy advantages, but I'm curious about ways to avoid also negating the advantages of your allies. I might be having a bit of a brain fart but I assume if you're doing an obscurement build you're going to assume that most battles are going to involve obscurement even if your enemies don't have the upper hand


Well, it depends on what kind of allies you have.  Got an example situation you're curious about?

If allies are making normal attacks, they're already unaffected.  And a lot of builds are just positively affected (or have access to tools or tactics that make them positively affected).  This is true more often than ever before since Tasha's was released.

Specific things are negatively affected, and often these can be played around in ways that make them positively affected.  For example, if an allied Barbarian decides to Reckless Attack, you can follow that up by switching on or moving your Darkness over them negate the enemy's Advantage.  And if they want to get Reckless Advantage again when their turn comes up? They can use a free object interaction to switch Darkness off temporarily.

That said, often isn't always, and close-ish range Darkness isn't the kind of thing I'd just toss into absolutely any party, same as something like a shover.  You should look at what your teammates want to play and decide how much it helps them or not (as when choosing your role in any party).  That shouldn't be an issue unless, say, you're playing in a game with a rotating cast, like West Marches style.

As a side thought, I don't think I've seen people complain about 'hurting their own team' with effects that knock prone, even though it has an obvious potential for doing so.  Or a lot of other features that have anti-synergies, for that matter.  Which leads me to wonder whether the psychological issue isn't so much that some anti-synergistic party compositions exist, but that they are sometimes _surprised_ by what those anti-synergies are.  Nobody is ever surprised that prone gives Disadvantage to ranged characters.  But obscurement seems to be more unintuitive for some.

*Edit*:  By the way, if you're switching Darkness off/on with object interactions, it can occasionally weaken your personal defense a bit, but that's okay -- Darkness would be slot-efficient if all it did was give you triple advantage for 10 minutes.  And of course it does more than just that when used optimally.

----------


## ftafp

> Well, it depends on what kind of allies you have.  Got an example situation you're curious about?
> 
> If allies are making normal attacks, they're already unaffected.  And a lot of builds are just positively affected (or have access to tools or tactics that make them positively affected).  This is true more often than ever before since Tasha's was released.
> 
> Specific things are negatively affected, and often these can be played around in ways that make them positively affected.  For example, if an allied Barbarian decides to Reckless Attack, you can follow that up by switching on or moving your Darkness over them negate the enemy's Advantage.  And if they want to get Reckless Advantage again when their turn comes up? They can use a free object interaction to switch Darkness off temporarily.
> 
> That said, often isn't always, and a melee Darkness build isn't the kind of thing I'd just toss into absolutely any party, same as something like a shover.  You should look at what your teammates want to play and decide how much it helps them or not (as when choosing your role in any party).  That shouldn't be an issue unless, say, you're playing in a game with a rotating cast, like West Marches style.
> 
> As a side thought, I don't think I've seen people complain about 'hurting their own team' with effects that knock prone, even though it has an obvious potential for doing so.  Or a lot of other features that have anti-synergies, for that matter.  Which leads me to wonder whether the psychological issue isn't so much that some anti-synergistic party compositions exist, but that they are sometimes _surprised_ by what those anti-synergies are.  Nobody is ever surprised that prone gives Disadvantage to ranged characters.  But obscurement seems to be more unintuitive for some.


I was referring more to allied casters, who struggle target either enemies or allies in the darkness.

----------


## LudicSavant

> I was referring more to allied casters, who struggle target either enemies or allies in the darkness.


A lot of casters should already have plans for playing around obscurement so that they can take advantage of stuff like fog cloud, sleet storm, or even casting darkness themselves.  Not to mention being prepared to deal with enemies who use their _own_ abilities that deny vision.

For things that do depend on seeing the target, you can still
- Switch off the darkness with an object interaction.
- Move into the area of darkness with an upcast Continual Flame (3rd level or higher Continual Flame items suppress Darkness), then move out again (or cover it).
- Cast it on targets when they aren't in the darkness.  It's not like they'll always be there, especially with a Monk jumping all over the place.
- Various specific abilities are relevant.  For example, Bard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard all have True Seeing (non-Concentration, lasts an hour, good spell in general, but takes a 6th level slot).  Moon Druids like to turn into blindsight forms.  Warlocks are just gonna be taking Devil's Sight the instant they hear anyone in their party uses Darkness.  Etc.
- absolute worst case scenario, you can immediately drop Concentration on Darkness off-turn to provide an opening.  

In addition to the ever-present 'use a different spell' option.  You don't need to see to cast Sickening Radiance, Fireball, Wall of Force, Dragon's Breath, Web, tons of things.

Hope that helps!   :Small Smile: 

*Edit with more examples!*
Funnily enough, checking on the Wizard I'm currently playing in our Saturday game (who's now level 19, in a campaign that started way back at level 3), she only has 3 spells prepared right now that depend on seeing a target creature:  Magic Missile, Disintegrate, and Counterspell.  And I don't use Disintegrate on creatures, I only prepare it in case of pesky force walls.  And if I ever really wanted to HCEE Magic Missile someone in the dark, I'd just whip out the upcast Continual Flame item I made the instant I hit level 5.  Though in most cases I would just use any of some 20 different spells.

I also had 3 obscurement spells of my own prepped; Pyrotechnics, Maddening Darkness (great with Sculpt Spell and Mind Blank), and (1/day from Tiefling racial) Darkness.

My level 8 Sorcerer (from a currently-ongoing campaign that started at level 1) seems to be in similarly good shape; he only has 2 spells that care about seeing a target creature (Phantasmal Force and Polymorph).  And I'm usually casting Polymorph on allies anywho.  And the party Cleric has Alert, so just loves being obscured.

Before that I was playing a Moon Druid, and she just liked to turn into creatures with Blindsight.

So... yeah, I guess as a caster I tend to see obscurement as a useful tool, not my enemy.  So I guess it really depends on what kind of caster we're talking about, here.

----------


## Sol0botmate

> A lot of casters should already have plans for playing around obscurement so that they can take advantage of stuff like fog cloud, sleet storm, or even casting darkness themselves.  Not to mention being prepared to deal with enemies who use their _own_ abilities that deny vision.
> 
> For things that do depend on seeing the target, you can still
> - Switch off the darkness with an object interaction.
> - Move into the area of darkness with an upcast Continual Flame (3rd level or higher Continual Flame items suppress Darkness), then move out again (or cover it).
> - Cast it on targets when they aren't in the darkness.  It's not like they'll always be there, especially with a Monk jumping all over the place.
> - Various specific abilities are relevant.  For example, Bard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard all have True Seeing (non-Concentration, lasts an hour, good spell in general, but takes a 6th level slot).  Moon Druids like to turn into blindsight forms.  Warlocks are just gonna be taking Devil's Sight the instant they hear anyone in their party uses Darkness.  Etc.
> - absolute worst case scenario, you can immediately drop Concentration on Darkness off-turn to provide an opening.  
> 
> ...


Sorry for cutting in discussion but a lot of very helpful tricks I didn't think of. I will reevaluate my opinion about Darkness trying to use some of tips you gave here. Thanks for sharing!

----------


## stoutstien

> Sunlight Sensitivity is a big deal for Kobolds. Unless you're constantly fighting in dim-light/darkness (which you most certainly can't ensure), I suggest you take Blind Fighting instead of Dueling to counter-act that weakness. Also, Dueling doesn't work with Hand Crossbow so I'm not sure what that achieves you anyway.
> Another issue is that besides Sentinel, I don't see what makes you a good target for the enemies on the melee version, which is a crucial trait of a tank. If I were on Team Monster I would almost certainly ignore your presence on the battlefield, because your AC is ridiculously high and your DPR / battlefield control is middling. I think the range version should be the default version of the build, since CBE + SS + Pack Tactics + Blind Fighting makes your 'melee' DPR pretty brutal.


Setting aside everything but the battlesmith with sentinel portion, the battlesmith is one of the best users of the feat because they are so hearty. Sentinel isn't a good feat for tanking in the grand scheme because it procs after the fact so it doesn't help to mitigate or control where the attacks are targeted. Where a BS swinging a great sword next to their SD and say the reckless barbarian holding the radiant infusion is leaving the opposition in a poor spot. Move away and take 2-3 AOO, dodge and move and hope to get lucky but losing an action, attack the barbarian at disadvantage and get attacked back and maybe be blinded, attack the SD and eat an attack and basically toss the attack away on a renewable hp pool, or attack the BS and fight a high AC and risk getting disadvantage from the SD.

As far as control goes the BS is setting fairly well. They have grapple shove on a bonus action now and enough spell slots for web and such to lock down the hordes when they show up.

----------


## Hael

*A Peaceful Summoner
*
So I wrote about this build in another thread, but I thought i'd optimize it and explain why I think it's so crazy. I'm sort of envisioning this character as a member of the Harpers who is rather ornery and disagreeable, but is frequently tasked with investigating high crimes and mysteries.  Basically an old goblin detective who no one see's coming.
Note that this is a very broken build.  You're taking two broken subclasses: The Shepherd druid and the Peace domain cleric, and merging them in a way that synergizes without really losing that much (eg high lvl spells are mostly lost for summoners).  If you really want to make this build even crazier, you should take the Mark of Sentinel human.  But I like the rp and flavor so here goes, feedback is appreciated.

Race:  Goblin (TCOE:  WIS +2, CON +1)
Classes:  Shepherd Druid 6/Peace Domain Cleric 6/Sheperd Druid 14
Stats (point buy): 8 STR / 14 DEX / 14 CON / 12 INT / 15 WIS / 8 CHA (honestly stats dont matter much here, if you want to powergame dump int and get more con)
ASIs: Res:CON, Telekinetic (WIS), X , X,  X (your choice, feats and asis dont really matter here.  Good options include Warcaster for better CON saves, Alert, Feytouched for Gift of Alacrity, Ritual Caster, WIS or CON asis)
Progression: Druid 6 -- > Cleric 6 -->Druid X.  
Notes on Progression:  There is a choice thats probably campaign specific.  The 6th lvl feature of Shepherd druids really empowers your summons and prevents them from falling off in late tier2-early tier3, however going Cleric at lvl 6 makes sense, and then you can note if your DM starts throwing nonmagic weapon resistant beasts at you and then take the 6th lvl druid level to stay online until you finish off the Cleric dip.  The longer you can hold off the better.

Background: Faction Agent 
Kits: Herbalism
Languages:  Common, Druidic, Sylvan, Elvish, Halfling, Primordial            
Skills: Stealth, Insight, Perception, Investigation, Animal Handling

Cantrips: Guidance, Mage Hand (Telekinetic), Mold Earth, Thaumaturgy, Thorn Whip, Toll the Dead, X, X, X.  (your choice, good choices could be shape Water, Mending, Create Bonfire, etc)

Druid Progression till lvl 6:
Spells: Absorb Elements, Goodberry, Healing word, Pass without Trace, Erupting Earth and of course Conjure Animals as well as the early lvl stuff like (Ice Knife, Entangle, Summon Beast, Faerie Fire) 

Cleric Progression:
Spells: Bless, Command, Detect Magic, Healing Word, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, Aura of Vitality, Animate Dead, Revivify, Dispel Magic, Glyph of Warding

Final Druid Progression:
Spells: Polymorph, Conjure Woodland Beings, Transmute Rock, Scrying, Greater Restoration, Cone of Cold, Mass Cure Wounds, Wind Walk, Bones of the Earth, Conjure Fey, Heal, Heroes Feast, Wind Walk, Regeneration, Plane Shift

Notes on interesting spell interactions:  There are a few things that are amazing. Bless/Guidance + Emboldening Bond gives 2d4 to all ability checks.  Your skill check monkey will love you forever.  Command is also very strong, as it allows you give reaction attacks to your 8+ furry minions when you tell a creature to flee from you (thus indirectly putting them into their path). Warding Bond is also a very strong ability for this class.  It allows you to use your wildshape as a hp sponge, so for instance if you turn into a spider and crawl up a wall, you can still contribute your hp pool that is being buffed with temp hp and healed by your totems.  

Comments:  Where to begin.  The first thing to note is that you can take a BA to hide with your goblin feature and high stealth, and watch your hordes solo encounters all of which is standard Shepherd druid fare.  But that's boring.  So since you are a small creature, you can hop on one of your summons, and use them like a mount and hop around the battlefield using thorn whip to reposition enemies into your summons, and then using telekinetic to reposition them or your allies further.  More relevant to this particular build is what the Peace cleric brings to the table.  So first of all, if you are by yourself, using your bond on your minions is a pretty big deal for their survivability, saves, skill checks and attack rolls.

Getting access to spiritual weapon is also really nice, b/c you don't have to send your summons through a gauntlet if someone is hiding behind a wall of traps.  However where things start getting really OP, is what your channel divinity can do.  On your turn on your mount, you can move around the battlefield without provoking OAs and heal 2d6 + WIS to all of your summons and party members that you cross paths with.  Given that many are already being healed or granted temp hp by your totems and Shepherd druid features, this can amount to an enormous wall of total health healed and can be essentially full heals for many of the low CR summons.

Which leads to the cherry on top at lvl 11-12.  Protective bond. This crazy ability synergizes with summons and your wildshape to a ridiculous degree.  B/c your summons might have a large array of resistances and immunities, with a little forethought you can use them to tank a lot of the big hits from tier 3-4 monsters thus yielding an enormous amount of effective damage mitigation (this is like getting the lvl 17 peace domain feature for free).  Are you fighting in a poison swamp?  Bring a zombie minion and bond it to outright resist all poison for the tank.  Fighting in a fire world?  Bring smoke Mephit summons.   The ability to constantly reposition yourself and your team (breaking grapples and restrained conditions), as well as the effective damage mitigation and the ability to smooth out the burst will probably be a bit too much for most tables, but it will be really fun while it lasts (before the DM drops you off a cliff) Btw, as of Tashas, druids now get familiars (which of course will be buffed with your shepherd druid abilities), so feel free to use it to provide advantage, to drop goodberries, to communicate with your party/summons while you are wildshaped, and to be used with the bond to provide reaction teleports for party members that are in danger.

End of the day, you have a party member who is an adequate primary healer, an ok buffer, with good out of combat utility and high passive perception and insight.  A member who is one of the strongest overall summoning builds in the game (rivaling conjurer 14/druid 6 or necromancer builds) and definitely the best at will party repositioner in the entire game with thorn whip + telekinesis + the 'misty step' like reactions for up to proficiency number of members of your party.  And on top of that, you have excellent battlefield control with a lot of non-concentration CC (like plant growth, mold earth, bones of the earth and erupting earth) as well as your summons potential CC and grapples and of course bonkers net damage potential.  I could get into a lot more crazy combos with specific summons, but I'll leave them to the reader to discover.

----------


## Sol0botmate

Sneaky, sneaky.

*Two simple builds that take advantage of new Blind Fighting style + Hidding mechanic to always stay hidden during combat while dealing high burst damage.* What's better than giving enemies disadvantage to attacks? Not being able to attack you at all because you are hidden.

*Build 1:*

*"Cloud Kill"*



*
Race*: Mark of Shadow Elf. Also good choices: Half-Elf Drow or Drow.
*Class*: 1 Fighter/X Rogue: Arcane Trickster
*Fighting Style*: Blind Fighting
*Attributes*: DEX 17, CON 14, INT 16
*ASI*: Elven Accuracy +1 DEX, +2 DEX, +2 INT, +2 INT
*
Leveling:* Start as Fighter for CON proficicency, fighting style and shield + martial + armor proficiencies.

*Race Choice*: although for basic mechanic of this build any "elf" race would work- Shadow Mark gives free +d4 to every Stealth roll, free Invisibility/long rest and Pass Without Trace spell. If you prefer other elf/half-elf races traits like free Darkness/day instead of "drow" races - go ahead and take it. 

The Combo:

It's very easy and staright foward:

1. Prepare Fog Cloud spell, which covers a big area (bigger if you upcast it) in thick fog, making everything heavy obscured. You can take Fog Cloud as early as level 3 of AT because only two of three you learn must be from enchantment and illusion. 3rd one is free pick. Take Fog Cloud.
2. Take Booming Blade as your cantrip.
3. Safe your Cunning Action for Bonus Action Hide
4. Obviously take Expertise in Stealth
5. Use Rapier + Booming Blade
6. Have Darkness prepared just in case once you reach level where you can pick it. Generally Fog Clous is better because True sight and Devil's Sight do not work on it, but Darkness can be casted on object or yourself so it can move with you.

So you cast Cloud Fog on battlefield. On level 5 you can do it 3/long rest. On level 8 -  6/long rest. 

What you do is use your Blind Fighting style to attack enemy inside Fog Cloud with Elven Accuray Triple advantage, using sneak attack + booming blade to stack as much damage as possible. Becasue you are heavy obscured, you can walk to target, hit it and walk back without provoking opportunity attacks. 

But even though you are heavy obscured - you can still be attacked with disadvantage in melee (in 10 feet range) and attacked normally with range attacks.

However here comes Bonus Action: Hide. Hidding have specific mechanics which state that enemy needs to not be able to see you (you need to be Heavy Obscured) if you want to try to hide during combat. Fog Cloud does it for you. Now you can go in attack with EA+ SA + BB and immidietly vanish via bonus action: hide inside your fog cloud. Enemies can't attack you unless they will pass perception check that is higher than your stealth check or if you will reveal your position by doing something (simple don't do anything). Spotting you is not easy as with Expertise and High Dex + Mark of Shadow you will have passive bonus of +13.5 on level 5 to your stealth roll. Meaning on average you will roll 24 on stealth roll on level 5. Which of course will only go higher. Get yourself also Boots of Elvenkind for advantage on that roll.

You bascically create that "Cloudkill" battlefield where enemies are being suddenly hit from within the fog but when they try to react and defend themselfs.... there is nothing there. If they stay in one place - they will be attacked again. If you move - Booming Blade will explode for more damage.

Be aware of enemy Ready Actions but you can easy spot it if enemy didn't do anything at all. 

That's it. It's nothing spectacular but being able to attack enemies in combat and then vanishing from their perception is really really nice and give you more room to work in.

*Example damage:* at *level 6* using Booming Blade + Sneak attack you can deal 2d8 + 3d6 + 4 dmg. *Average 23,5 dmg*. If target moves after being stabbed, he will take additional 2d8 dmg for toal of possible *32,5 dmg*.

You are still Rogue Arcane Trickster

Remember that this is just one of the things you can do. You still have access to Pass Without Trace for awesome +10 to stealth for 1 hour. You still have your Mage Hand utility, all the good Rogue stuff like Evansion etc. and Magical Ambush. 
'
You have Solid AC 19 with Studded Leather + shield

As for more Multiclassing options... well, you want that sneak attack badly. You could in theory go more levels of a Fighter to get second attack, maybe 5 level Eldricht Knigth to not totally lose all spell progress or Champion to boost that crit chance with 19-20 rolls

*Build 2:* 
*
"Misty Holystabber"*

_Can Goblins be Paladins? Sure. They may want to fight for what's right and good, protect others or seek holy vengeance. But who said Goblin will not fight dirty? ;)
_


*Race:* Goblin
*Class:* 1 Sorcerer/12 Paladin of Vengeance/Ancients
*Attributes:* STR 13, DEX 17, CON 14, CHA 14
*Fighting Style*: Blind Fighting
*ASI*: Skill Expert (Stealth) +1 DEX, DEX +2, CHA +2, CHA +2

What we want is to abuse Goblin Racial Ability called "Nimble Escape", which allows us to take Disengage and Hidden action as our Bonus Action. We also have "Fury of the Small" so once/short rest we can add bonus damage equal to our character level when we damage a creature.

Sorcerer 1 allows us to pick.... Fog Cloud (You know where I am going with it, no?) + CON proficency for keeping concentration (if you get Fireballed inside your Fog Cloud). But you can also start as Paladin for WIS/CHA. In most cases you can't be target by majority of "save or suck" spells due to heavy obscured. 

*The Combo:*

1. Cast Fog Cloud
2. Attack 2x with IDS + Smite + Fury of the small if we really dislike someone.
3. You attack with advantage due to Blind Fighting style. Use rapier
4. You don't provoke OA from creature you attack inside Fog Cloude because everything is heavy obscured.
5. You use Bonus Action: Hide to vanish from enemy sight till next turn where you will attack again. You are heavy obscured so you should have no problem with it.
6. You have Expertise in Stealth + high Dexterity.

In case where you fight boss with blind sight - simply use Vow of Enmity from Vengeance Paladin to have advantage on all attacks on him + use Bonus Action: Disengage to keep your hit-n-run tactic going. We wear Studded Leather + shield here

That's it. Please remember that you are not tanky Paladin here. Your Aura will have small bonus for most of your career and you have only 14 CON. It's dirty Paladin fighting here. He backstabs from mist/fog with holy radiant power. All enemies see is flash of radiant power when they get hit by smite. But when they try to turn around and see who injured them...

There is nobody there.... only a thick mist.... 


*Multiclassing:*

I think best would be 1 Sorc/12 Paladin as base. Having access to Improve Divine Smite + Immunity to fear will work nice. For rest levels you can finish as Sorcerer for more spells lots for Smites + more spells in general or some nice Sorc features, so final build could look like 1 Sorc/12 Paladin/7 Sorc.

That's it. A dirty little green Paladin stabber :)


*Caution:* Downside of both builds is that if you have party that heavy rely on getting easy advantage (Barbarian, Samurai Fighter or Hexblade) or cast a lot of single target spells (instead of happy Fireball Evoker): then remembe that Fog Cloud will counter all of that. Still it can be fun in right party :).

----------


## Rakoa

I would be curious to see your take on a Genie Warlock.

----------


## LudicSavant

Added the following builds to the first page:
Smoll Panzer Smith by Sol0botmateThe Necessary Evil by carrdrivesyouA Peaceful Summoner by HaelCloud Kill by Sol0botmateMisty Holystabber by Sol0botmate
As always let me know if I missed any!

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## Talionis

> Sneaky, sneaky.
> 
> *Two simple builds that take advantage of new Blind Fighting style + Hidding mechanic to always stay hidden during combat while dealing high burst damage.* What's better than giving enemies disadvantage to attacks? Not being able to attack you at all because you are hidden.
> 
> *Build 1:*
> 
> *"Cloud Kill"*
> 
> 
> ...


I like this play style but it is hard on your party.  Also You cannot see more than ten feet.  Most DMs will hit you hard for reengagment when you cant see your enemy.  

Something that helps some is having a bat familiar.  As an action you can see through the familiar.  With cunning action you can do a lot with your bonus action.  It makes it hard to attack but at least you can get around.  

Dragons Breath spell also works well with fog cloud and giving it to an ally or familiar can help.

----------


## Sol0botmate

> Added the following builds to the first page:
> Smoll Panzer Smith by Sol0botmateThe Necessary Evil by carrdrivesyouA Peaceful Summoner by HaelCloud Kill by Sol0botmateMisty Holystabber by Sol0botmate
> As always let me know if I missed any!


Hey Ludic. I think it might be good idea to add a short description in side notes next to builds so people can easly see what class is it and what it does. This will allow people to look for what they would like to play as.

Example using my builds:

"The Trunk Tank" (Rune Knight Grappler/Controller tank)
"Cloud Kill" (Elven Accuracy Arcane Trickster with permanent hide during combat)

This way if somone is looking for either a tank Rune Knight build or Arcane Trickster build - they already know where to click.

I could help you with it if you want by looking at builds and send you proposition of short descriptions. Authors can always later propose their own if they don't like it.

What do you think?

----------


## Sol0botmate

> I like this play style but it is hard on your party.  Also You cannot see more than ten feet.  Most DMs will hit you hard for reengagment when you cant see your enemy.  
> 
> Something that helps some is having a bat familiar.  As an action you can see through the familiar.  With cunning action you can do a lot with your bonus action.  It makes it hard to attack but at least you can get around.  
> 
> Dragons Breath spell also works well with fog cloud and giving it to an ally or familiar can help.


As I said- if your party heavy relies on advantage generation - be careful with it or don't use it. However if you have other melee with Blind Fight or or melee that don't generate self advantage (for example Paladins of different Oaths than Vengenace) - you are safe to use it as everyone inside Fog Cloud will attack normally. 

DM can't hit you hard because you are hidden and when you reengage enemy - you hide again after attack using bonus action.

The only thing that can hit you is AOE, but you will be close to enemies so they will risk hitting their own too.

It's a very potent combo but as I mentioned in Caution point: you need to know what your party composition is and if that will work with them.

----------


## CMCC

> Hey Ludic. I think it might be good idea to add a short description in side notes next to builds so people can easly see what class is it and what it does. This will allow people to look for what they would like to play as.
> 
> Example using my builds:
> 
> "The Trunk Tank" (Rune Knight Grappler/Controller tank)
> "Cloud Kill" (Elven Accuracy Arcane Trickster with permanent hide during combat)
> 
> This way if somone is looking for either a tank Rune Knight build or Arcane Trickster build - they already know where to click.
> 
> ...


This is a good idea

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## Pandamonium

> Heart of the Storm only triggers on spells level 1 and higher, not on cantrips.
> 
> Edit:
> *You are free to upcast the cantrip Booming Blade however and use a 1st-level spell-slot to trigger Heart of the Storm*. This would definitely be worth it at higher levels; spending a 1st-level spell-slot on 3 damage for a level 6 sorcerer is just not worth it imo.


Hi! Late to the party :)
You can't upcast cantrips? They don't use spell slots. Or is there some houserule you use?

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## Hairfish

> Hi! Late to the party :)
> You can't upcast cantrips? They don't use spell slots. Or is there some houserule you use?


Did you seriously just reply to a post from 2019 without checking the very next page to see if it was already covered?

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## Evaar

> Did you seriously just reply to a post from 2019 without checking the very next page to see if it was already covered?


So they're _very_ late to the party.  :Small Big Grin:

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## heavyfuel

Is it kosher to use UA for builds posted here?

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## mjp1050

> Is it kosher to use UA for builds posted here?


Yep. This is a fairly low-procedure thread; the only requirement is that your build must be fun and eclectic.

----------


## Wraith

I dont have so much a build as I do a jumping off point for a gimmick that could be turned into a build. Its a bit silly, but I feel like it has some interesting flavour that could be progressed into something fun.

Unashamedly inspired by Skylivedk's "The Cheese Grater" build, but with updates taken from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything that weren't available at the time.

*The "Road Rash" Wrestler*



*Race:* Tabaxi
*Stats:* As high STR as possible, reasonable DEX to win initiatives but not super important, WIS13+ for multiclassing; dump INT and/or CHA.
*Class:* Fighter 3 / Cleric 3
*Subclass:*  Rune Knight / Nature Domain
*Spells:* Cleric (1st): (Speak With Animals), (Animal Friendship),
Cleric (2nd): (Barkskin), (Spike Growth)

*The Build:* 

Fighter levels 1-3 is a solid start for any character, you cant really go wrong by wearing heavy armour and a shield, and hitting things with a big stick. Dont forget to take Athletics as one of your proficient skills. 

At level 3 we become a Rune Knight because what we really want is Giants Might - this is going to be a grapple build, albeit one with some magical assistance. For your Runes, Frost is a no-brainer as it improves our STR checks but the other one doesnt particularly matter - I like Cloud because that way you can grapple one target and keep them pinned down, but still attack another who is further away and thus assist your party.

For levels 4-6 we pick up Cleric and choose Nature as our Domain. This keeps us quite tanky and gives us access to a few buffs and light healing, which is always nice, but the key is Nature Domain 3 where we pick up the _Spike Growth_ spell.

The aim of the game is this; We cast _Spike Growth_ and let our enemies take damage as they approach us, then we use Giants Might to go Large Sized and gain Advantage to grapple checks, which we should be reliably succeeding with at least +8 or +9 to our roll (Athletics Proficiency +3, Frost Rune +2, STR +3 minimum).

Having suitably grappled a gently perforated enemy, we activate both our racial and class abilities - Feline Agility and Action Surge - which lets us move a huge distance, repeatedly, all in one turn, and drag our victim in a circle around the edge of the _Spike Growth_ AoE.

Tabaxi base-speed is 30ft; we can move, then Dash, then Action Surge to move again for a total of 90ft per turn. Normally this would be doubled for Feline Agility, but then halved because were dragging a grappled creature so it stays the same, for a total of 18 squares of movement.
_Spike Growth_ deals 2d4 damage per 5ft square traversed - thats 36d4, which is nothing to sniff at. Next turn we stay put because Feline Agility requires us take a rest, but if theres anything left of your victim at this point then you can spend that on ganking them with a weapon or your claws and go again the turn after (albeit without Action Surge) for a mere 24d4 damage.

At level 6, a Barbarian will have rolled approximately (6d12) ~40HP, plus CON - call it a round 60 or so. At the same level, your average damage output for one turn is ~108, more than enough to one-shot them and possibly *just about* enough (with only a slightly above-average roll) even if they have resistance from Raging. Have fun!

*Alternative routes:*

If you feel that Cleric doesnt fit your style, you could instead substitute with 3 levels of Druid. Circle of the Land (Arctic or Mountain) both give you _Spike Growth_ as an always prepared spell, as well as _Longstrider_ for yet another +10ft movement speed which stacks with any other bonuses that you have.

Alternatively, depending on how your GM rules interactions between abilities, Circle of the Moon might be worth a look. You would have to prepare your spells normally, but there is mischief to be had in certain Wild Shapes; even if your GM insists that Feline Agility only applies if youre a feline (not unreasonable), Panthers (CR ¼) have an innate movement speed of 50ft. Lions (CR 1) also have 50ft speed, and they are Large already - although it doesn't stack with Giant's Might for even larger size, it does mean you can grab-and-drag reliably even when you have used up your Giant Might charges for the day with Wildshape instead. Or just because it looks cool.
If you really want to invest in this option, or are starting the game above level 1 and wont suffer through level 1-5 too much, you could even consider the Point Buy rules for stats rather than the standard array; 8/8/8/16/16/15 (before Tabaxis ++DEX and +CHA) sets you up to spend all your time Wild Shaped while in combat for the physical stats, and maximizes your spellcasting and social stats for outside of combat.

You can also achieve the Grapple-And-Drag effect from a couple of other sources if you feel like being a little different. Ranger immediately springs to mind as they also get _Spike Growth_ at level 3, but unfortunately it doesnt offer us much that we dont already get from Fighter or Cleric; same weapons, same fighting styles, worse armour, and some unrelated out of combat buffs. It will definitely work, but youll probably need a significantly unique RP theme in mind to get much joy out of it.

If you feel like doing something unique with your speedy Tabaxi, you could instead consider a Warlock and call upon the Dao Genie as your patron - they too get _Spike Growth_ at 3rd level, easily overlooked among the various options available.
Whereas Warlock itself doesnt do a lot for a grapple build, it does grant you utility in other places to prevent you from being a one-trick pon-... kitty. Pact of the Blade doesnt offer much that Rune Knight doesnt already, but Pact of the Tome turns you into a more flexible Fighter-Caster for situations where smushing someones face into the dirt isnt viable, as well as granting you non-Druid access to _Longstrider_ via the Book of Ancient Secrets Invocation. Either way, the benefits of Eldritch Invocations will give you a variety of things to do elsewise and really let you personalise your build.

Another CHA-based option is Bard. Any of the subclasses gets Magical Secrets at level 10, so although quite a late blossoming build you could play a support roll with explosive potential. It's a very different playstyle to Tanky-Cleric or Magey-Warlock too, so there's variety to be had along the way.

*Progressing the build:*

The big weakness of the build is that you have no ASIs at level 6 - youre 1 level short in either Fighter or Cleric, so the obvious route is to round them out to Fighter 4/Cleric 4 and get that extra STR twice in two levels.

Alternatively, if you feel that between being Large and the Frost Rune you can afford to wait, there are a couple of feats that would help. War Caster is an obvious choice; youre required to concentrate on the lynch- pin of your gimmick, but being able to recast it one-handed if you get surprised by an enemy and dont have time to set it up before they get to you is potentially useful.
Mobile might also be worth considering, along with other ways of improving your base speed - a +10 here translates as +6d4 extra damage in your nova turn, as well as preventing you from being slowed down by unpleasant terrain. Stacking as many movement increases as you can will present some impressive results.

Lets say that youve reached level 8 and you decide that youre done with Fighter or Druid; what next?
Monk is a pretty interesting choice, particularly if you have invested in the Point Buy stats and Druid alternative; it doubles the value of your higher WIS score, and Monk 12 is a good level both for an ASI and for +20ft movement speed. For those keeping track - between your spells (_Longstrider_) and abilities (Action Surge, Mobile, being a Monk), you can now drag someone 70ft, three times in one turn, for 84d4 damage. And then you punch them in the head a couple of times, all before you pick up some Boots of Speed, or before an ally casts Haste on you.

Unfortunately none of the Monk subclasses are particularly great for what were doing. Way of the Astral Self is probably the best as it gives you ways to inflict Reach and AoE damage while grappling someone, although Way of Shadows makes it easier to teleport around and nab an enemy spellcaster or healer from the backline. Sun Soul gives you a reliable ranged attack that deals Fire or Radiant damage should you meet something that isnt impressed by your thorny antics, if you feel that you need to fill that niche.

*Sample configurations:*

*Fighter (Rune Knight) 12 / Cleric (Nature Domain) 8*
Balanced, as all things should be. You have all of your ASIs, Fighters Extra Attack and Clerics second Domain feature, but you can easily swap to Cleric 12/Fighter 8 if you want to focus more on spells than melee.

*Fighter (Rune Knight) 4 / Druid (Circle of the Land/Arctic) 4 / Monk (Way of Astral Self) 12*
Full ASIs again, but you sacrifice versatility for optimisation. You could sacrifice 2 levels for Monk 14, but its really not worth it for +5ft movement speed and Diamond Soul.

*Fighter (Rune Knight) 6 / Druid (Circle of the Moon) 14*
Youre going all-in on negotiating with your GM to allow Feline Agility to apply to any feline shape, but if you can get that to work then its a strong position for you. You get Extra Attack and a spare ASI from Fighter at 6, as well your ultimate Circle ability and the highest CR feline Beastform, the Sabre-Toothed Tiger.

*Fighter (Rune Knight) 3 / Warlock (Genie Patron) 17*
Lose an ASI, but gain that all important 9th level Mystic Arcanum for the full Warlock spellcasting experience. Theres potentially an argument to trade off a couple of levels for Fighter 5 / Warlock 15 if you really want that Extra Attack and are happy to stop at an 8th level spell, but neither are going to improve upon several dozen dice worth of dragging and stabbing.

*Fighter (Rune Knight) 3 / Bard (College of Lore) 6*
Who says that a spell has to be on your class's spell list in order for you to be able to cast it? The College of Lore gets Magical Secrets a little earlier than everyone else so one of your choices can be Spike Growth, and in addition by then your Cutting Words is up to d8 as a penalty for the poor dolt that you're trying to Grapple. Also offers a very different play-style as a support roll who can happily tear any single living things' face off once per rest. Progressing along this route probably involves maxing out Fighter for more ASI's and Feats, but if you're committed to the support role then rounding up to Fighter 6 gets you a couple of good ASIs and then Bard 14 is your last subclass feature.

*Artificer (Armourer) 14 / Fighter (Rune Knight) 3 / Any option to get Spike Growth 3*
Shout out to Jellypants who woke up one day and decided that they were going to wrestle the Tarrasque, and for that purpose statted The Greatest Grappler of All Time. Their build typically goes Artificer 17/Fighter 3 to get an absolutely colossal Grapple check bonus and ensure that nothing can escape you, but if you drop a couple of levels of Artificer then you lose out on nothing in terms of Grappling ability and can instead add in the Cleric/Druid/Warlock dip for Spike Growth. It's not even as MAD as you might think, since you just have to tinker a little to get enough WIS/CHA for multiclassing and then ignore it forever because everything else runs off INT and a smidge of DEX.

----------


## Sol0botmate

> I dont have so much a build as I do a jumping off point for a gimmick that could be turned into a build. Its a bit silly, but I feel like it has some interesting flavour that could be progressed into something fun.
> 
> *The "Road Rash" Wrestler*
> 
> *Race:* Tabaxi
> *Stats:* As high STR as possible, reasonable DEX to win initiatives but not super important, WIS13+ for multiclassing; dump INT and/or CHA.
> *Class:* Fighter 3 / Cleric 3
> *Subclass:*  Rune Knight / Nature Domain
> *Spells:* Cleric (1st): (Speak With Animals), (Animal Friendship),
> ...


As a big Rune Knight fan I will say that this is neat idea for low level campaign/one-shot, but overall you delay tons of RK features like Extra Attack, ASI, Runes, and worst: 7th Level runes which includes Storm Rune, aka God Rune. 

However - as far as single target Nova goes - *this is very good damage to be done by yourself at such level*. But at this point I would just ask another player if he wants to play Ranger or Druid and cast Spike Growth. Grappler build is honestly not really good as self-build. It's power comes from combos with other people.

To give you some numbers: A level 7 Rune Knight can grapple 2 enemies and hold them inside Wizard Wall of Fire and Cleric Spirit Guardians + move them out and in of SGs in his turn for extra damage.

That alone is 10d8 + 8d8 + 2x (5d8 + 4d8) damage which on average will potentially deal 162 dmg total. Of course it can go into 110 damage range if all saves will succeed (unlikely as it's total of 6 saves) but because you can grapple two targets in one turn - you double the damage your party can deal. Now imagine if you are Loxodon (3 targets) or Simic Hybrid (4 targets)- you can even double that damage becaue of Action Surge and two attacks (320 dmg!). And you still have your Storm Rune for Team Support, Hill Rune for Charm and Runic Shield for denying critical hits. Now what if you also have Druid in party? It gets crazy.

While I really love Cleric dip on Fighter, I think you will get more by sticking to level 11 as Rune Knight or At least level 8 (more attacks - more grapples, more ASI - better Fighter) or with 1 level dip before that. Unless you have no casters in party who can combo with you.

So what I would propose is Rune Knight 6 first and then 3 levels Druid if you want to make that Tabaxi Spike combo and you don't mind delaying best Runes so much. You can then do this with two targets instead of one and you can combo better with team + make more attacks (more grapple in one turn) if needed. Or you can do Shove + Grapple in one turn on boss. And you get 2 ASI. And that leaves your action surge for more! 

*But overall - it's a neat idea of combining Tabaxi speed boost with Spike Growth- love it :)*

Grappler essentially is a force multiply on battlefield. The job is not self-made damage but to "make a damage using other people spells" - if that makes sense.

Let's take Wall of Fire as example - NOBODY with brain will stand inside WoF or on the side that burns and take 5d8 guarantee dmg a turn. So there is a very slim chance of that to deal damage. But if you grapple two enemies and hold them inside- *It is YOU who deal 5d8 dmg to each of them*. Wall of Fire is just a tool that Wizard gave you. It's like giving you 5d8 melee attacks but that hit automatically and you have to spread multiattack. But it's YOU who deal that damage per turn.

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## Wraith

> As a big Rune Knight fan I will say that this is neat idea for low level campaign/one-shot, but overall you delay tons of RK features like Extra Attack, ASI, Runes, and worst: 7th Level runes which includes Storm Rune, aka God Rune.


I make no bones about it; it's a weird/silly/fun build rather than a generally powerful one, hence why I referred to it as a gimmick.  :Small Big Grin: 

Mostly I just wanted to find a way to run _really really_ fast and then weaponize it, without burdening other players by asking for their support - any build in this thread can be improved by a Druid helping them out, after all.

Some really nice suggestions though, especially in tweaking the RK/Cleric balance. Glad you enjoyed it  :Small Smile:

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## Sol0botmate

> I make no bones about it; it's a weird/silly/fun build rather than a generally powerful one, hence why I referred to it as a gimmick. 
> 
> Mostly I just wanted to find a way to run _really really_ fast and then weaponize it, without burdening other players by asking for their support - any build in this thread can be improved by a Druid helping them out, after all.
> 
> Some really nice suggestions though, especially in tweaking the RK/Cleric balance. Glad you enjoyed it


Silly builds are fun. I like your thinking! Here is example:

Simic Hybrid Rune Knight 12/4 Astral Monk

16 STR, 13 DEX, 17 CON, 12 WIS

ASI: +2 STR, Skill Expert (athletics) +1 CON, +2 STR, RES (WIS) +1 WIS (13), +2 CON

*Now you can grapple 6 enemies in one turn - 3 with Attack Action, 3 with Action Surge.* 

Hold them all in upcasted Wall of Fire, for 8d8 per turn per enemy, for total of 48d8 dmg per turn. 

Silly? Yes. MAD? Yes. Suboptimal? Yes.

But hell it's fun to lock whole encounter by yourself :D.

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## Amechra

Remember that the Monk can let you Dash an extra time as a bonus action.

So the Monk build has a 70ft base speed and can potentially go [Grapple and Shove] →[Feline Agility] →[AS Dash] →[BA Dash], for a total speed of 210ft, or 84d4 damage from _Spike Growth_.

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## Sol0botmate

> Remember that the Monk can let you Dash an extra time as a bonus action.
> 
> So the Monk build has a 70ft base speed and can potentially go [Grapple and Shove] →[Feline Agility] →[AS Dash] →[BA Dash], for a total speed of 210ft, or 84d4 damage from _Spike Growth_.


And Party Wizard cast Haste :D

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## Wraith

> Now you can grapple 6 enemies in one turn - 3 with Attack Action, 3 with Action Surge.


Very nice. ftafp's Hecatoncheiros Monk uses the same principle, albeit for punching people rather than grabbing them, so there's probably an optimum number of Attacks/Action Surges to distribute  as many grabs as possible in there somewhere. 




> Remember that the Monk can let you Dash an extra time as a bonus action.


If you want to get really silly with multiclassing, you can do it as Rogue, too; Fighter 4 / Druid 4 / Monk 10 / Rogue 2.

Same effect, however the extra Dash is unlimited as opposed to requiring Ki, and you get Expertise (Athletics) into the bargain. Does it matter, at level 20? Probably not, but just because we shouldn't doesn't mean that we won't  :Small Tongue: 




> And Party Wizard cast Haste :D


And then you wear Boots of Speed.  :Small Big Grin: 

Base move: 30ft
Level 10 Monk: +20ft
Longstrider: +10ft
Mobile feat: +10ft
Total: 70ft per action.

Move -> Dash -> Bonus Dash -> Hasten -> Action Surge = 350ft per turn
Doubled (Feline Agility) = 750ft per turn
Doubled again (Boots of Speed) = 1500ft per turn
Halved, because grappling = 750ft per turn, or 150 squares

300d4 damage, anyone?

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## Sol0botmate

Since my Trunk Trank build I was little obsessed with grapple builds and after some test playing with fellow Wizard I discovered how absolutely bonkers grapple builds are when combined with hazard spells.

Rune Knight as we know is currently  the best candidate for S-Tier grappler. Advantage in Strength checks and being able to grow to Large from level 3 and grapple shove huge enemies is a big thing. Action Surge allow for multiple CC in one turn. 3 Attacks with GWM on shoved enemies can wreck havoc. However I thought - can this be achieved on another class? Barbarian can get advantage, but they can't grow without multiclassing to Rune Knight, which is not that stupid idea.

Barbarian 9 levels with 4 levels of Rune Knight would be able to be Large, have advantage and hit like truck or with Bear Totem - tank like crazy.

So then came the idea of using good old, tested, and strong chasis:

Sorcadin!

*"The Kraken!" was born!*


*
Race*: Symic Hybrid - TENTACLES!
*Class variant 1*: 6 Paladin Oath of Glory/12 Sorcerer (any will do, choice your favourite!)/2 Fighter 
*Class variant 2*: 6 Paladin Oath of Glory/4 Sorcerer/6 Paladin/4 Rune Knight (if you want to grab more Paladin features + Rune Knight Giant's Might for Tier 4 gameplay to combine with your Enlarge spell)
*Fighting Style*: Blind Fighting Style (Defense if you dip Fighter later).
*Attributes*: 17 STR, 15 CON, 16 CHA
*ASI*: Skill Expert (Athletics) +1 STR, RES (CON), +2 CHA, +2 CHA

*
The Grappler Kraken*

*Oath of Glory Paladin is excellent Grappler because of two things:*

1. *Channel Divinity: Peerless Athlete.* As a bonus action, you can use your Channel Divinity to augment your athleticism. For the next 10 minutes, you have advantage on Strength (Athletics) and Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks; you can carry, push, drag, and lift twice as much weight as normal; and the distance of your long and high jumps increases by 10 feet (this extra distance costs movement as normal).

Advantage on grapple and shove checks - check. Bonus Action. Once per short rest so 3/long rest. That is good. 

2. Enchance Abililty spell. Another source of Advantage on Athletics checks if our Channel Divinity is not available.

3. Blind Fighting style: grappling invisible enemies + being able to use that to generate advantage for yourself when fighting Gargantual enemies

*Sorcerer levels gives us the following:*

1. Enlarge/Reduce spell. Now if needed we can make ourself Large, allowing us to grapple up to Huge enemies. This also gives us advantage on Athletic checks. Obviously Gargantual enemies are out of our reach, but we are freaking Sorcadin! We will just smite them to dust then!

2. Fog Cloud + Darkness. This combined with Blind Fighting Style allows us to generate advantage on our attacks when we can't shove+grapple enemies. We can also grapple medium and Large enemies and cast then Fog Cloud on us giving us advantage without need to shove them.

*Simic Hybrid gives us:*

1. Extra arms (Tentacles!) to grapple up to 2 enemies without using our main hands (so we can still hold shield + sword or two-handed weapon) or up to 4 for maximum CC. We have 2 attacks, we can grapple two enemies into our party Hazard. Next turn you can shove them if you want with your weapon or just keep them there.

*To Sum it up:*

We can get advantage on Athletic checks by either spells or channel divinity. When we fight medium to large enemies we can rely on our Enchanced Ability or Channel Divinity. With Enlarge/Reduce we can increase our size up to Large, allowing us to grapple Huge enemies with advantage. We can grapple multiple enemies. We can give ourself advantage on attacks and disadvantage on enemies attacks with either Darkness (which can move with us) or with Fog Cloud. 

All that at level 10. On top of that you are still Paladin so you have Aura, Smites, LoH, heavy armor.

We also get Metamagic so we can use that to Quicken Enchanced Ability or Enlarge/Reduce and cast it on bonus action.  Enlarge/Reduce also gives you bonus 1d4 to all attacks. If you go Paladin 6/4 Sorcerer/10 Paladin you will also get IDS on level 15 for extra 1d8 dmg + 1d4 in Enlarge. Extra levels of Fighter give us Action Surge for grappling more enemies in same turn or shoving them.

When Fighting Gargantual monsters, which lets be honest- usually don't come up till Tier 4 - you can just do standard Sorcadin stuff and smite them to death with advantage from your Darkness or Fog Cloud. It's not like you like Nova when Gargantual boss appears ;)

Last but not least we have all good stuff of Sorcadin: Quicken BB, Quicken Spells like Darkness or Fog Cloud, Twin Buffs, Quicken Hold Person into smites, Shield, Absorb Elements, Cantrips 

*Progression:*

The most important as always in Sorcadins is to get Aura and then spells. So 6 Levels of Paladin: Oath of Glory. Then at least 4 levels of Sorcerer for Enlarge/Reduce, Shield, Absorb Elements and Fog Cloud + Darkness. Then you can either go back to Paladin to grab ASI and IDS on level 15. Or go full Sorcerer. Just dip somewhere there 2 levels of Fighter at least for Action Surge or 4 for Rune Knight Giant's Might and ASI.

*
How does it compare to Rune Knight?*

So the main differences are:

Kraken can become Large on level 9. Rune Knight can become Large on level 3. That is 6 level difference before you can make grapple combos with Huge enemies. It's worth to remember that.
Kraken can bonus action Enlarge same as Rune Knight can bonus action: Giant's Might. Rune Knight gets once per round 1d6/8/10 while Kraken gets 1d4 to all attacks. Both get advantage on Strength checks.
Kraken can grapple two enemies in one turn. Rune Knight level 11 can grapple even 4 + shove two thanks to 6 attacks with Action Surge. Or shove + grapple 3 enemies in total.
Kraken can use Channel Divinity for advantage and still cast on himself Darkness/Fog Cloud for advantage or Haste for extra attack.
Kraken can Smite for huge nova like all Paladins, has Aura of Protection, Metamagic. He can fly with Fly spell, cast fireball if needed, quicken Lightning Bolt or if you take Divine Soul- use Spirit Guardians with grapples.
Kraken has cantrips for range attacks. Rune Knight sadly does not have any.
Rune Knight has Storm Rune, Hill Rune and Fire Rune for extra CC and team support. Plus Runic Shield.
Kraken has better saves and team support with Aura of Protection, LoH healing, Twinning support spells, having bless etc.
Kraken can cure from any poison. Rune Knight has resistance to poison and advantage vs it.
Kraken can use Shield as reaction for +5 AC and Absorb Elements. Rune Knight can cancel critical hit and give himself resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.
Rune Knight can eventually Grapple shove even Gargantual enemies. But Kraken can just smite them to dust with Nova.
Kraken can generate advantage with Fog Cloud/Darkness, which can be quicken on bonus action. Rune Knight can generate advantage with shove + grapple easier due to more attacks + action surge in same turn.

Both are excellent grapplers. You have to chose your champion :)

----------


## LudicSavant

> Hey Ludic. I think it might be good idea to add a short description in side notes next to builds so people can easly see what class is it and what it does. This will allow people to look for what they would like to play as.
> 
> Example using my builds:
> 
> "The Trunk Tank" (Rune Knight Grappler/Controller tank)
> "Cloud Kill" (Elven Accuracy Arcane Trickster with permanent hide during combat)
> 
> This way if somone is looking for either a tank Rune Knight build or Arcane Trickster build - they already know where to click.
> *
> ...





> This is a good idea


Sure, send me a list of short descriptions and if it looks like everything's in order I'll add it.

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## Citadel97501

I love the Kraken, I might even have to try it out sometime :)

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## Sol0botmate

> I love the Kraken, I might even have to try it out sometime :)


Thanks. I really like him too. I hesitate which one to play as grappler honestly - The Kraken or Rune Knight Loxodon/Simic Hybrid. 

The Kraken has obvious advantage of being Paladin. Rune Knight on having way more CC turing single turn scaling with CON while it will be a while before Kraken can even get CHA 18 so Quicken Hypnotic Pattern is not that effective.

The question also is: from people experience how many Huge enemies players fight before level 9? Kraken has quite a big dely in grappling them compare to RK. RK also has definitely benefit of more ASI levels.

Tough choice :)

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## Sol0botmate

Sadly, Failed Build attempt here :(

----------


## bendking

> *"Nuclear Corroder"*


Unfortunately, you can't change damage type from Force to Acid.

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## Sol0botmate

> Unfortunately, you can't change damage type from Force to Acid.


Owwww... shame on me then and build failed. I didn't read that part. Shame, thought Sorcerers gotr something good vs Wizards finally.

Well, back to playing Wizards :)

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## Drcitron

Hi, 


Thanks for all the build here, i really like the build number 4 with the cleric arcana, and i have some questions about this one.

I want to use it for my second campain after having playing a cleric life for my first introduction to the game campain. 

I really like the flavor of the build and the picture use for the illustration with the scyth make me wanna play something like this.

some my questions are : 

Do you play the build with Shield and Mace like all priest ? or what will be your starting weapon choice.

And it's possible to play it with a 2h weapon in place of the shield+mace like the picture ? Or i will be to low in AC for melee fight? . I know that is not normaly a starting weapon for priest but i can check with my dm if it's possible or not. Or maybe ask him if i can use a Quarterstaff who look like a scyth. 


Thanks for the reply :)

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## Wraith

> Do you play the build with Shield and Mace like all priest ? or what will be your starting weapon choice.


If you specifically DID want to follow the example in the picture and use the Shillelagh spell to make your weapon look like a ghostly scythe, then you have to use either a wooden club or a quarterstaff as your main, as that's required by the spell. You could always take a shield and wield the quarterstaff one-handed if you wanted - it does slightly less damage that way, but you can just drop the shield and use both hands very quickly.

Alternatively, like the build suggests, you don't have to take Shillelagh and can use other spells, in which case your choice of weapon doesn't matter so much, but that's up to you.




> And it's possible to play it with a 2h weapon in place of the shield+mace like the picture ? Or i will be to low in AC for melee fight? . I know that is not normaly a starting weapon for priest but i can check with my dm if it's possible or not. Or maybe ask him if i can use a Quarterstaff who look like a scyth.


If you wanted to use a two handed weapon, you would probably start the game with Scalemail armour (unless your DM gives you something else) along with +2 from your DEX bonus of about AC16. That's quite reasonable, and you can improve it immediately with spells like Shield of Faith or an equivalent like Protection From Evil & Good.

Probably the best thing to do is find out what the rest of your group want to play as. If they're all soft squishy characters who wear little or no armour, it might be better for you to really focus on taking a shield and looking after them; if they're all playing Fighters and Paladin though, they're probably tough enough that you can forgo a bit of armour and instead take a bigger weapon.  :Small Smile:

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## Hairfish

> Do you play the build with Shield and Mace like all priest ? or what will be your starting weapon choice.
> 
> And it's possible to play it with a 2h weapon in place of the shield+mace like the picture ? Or i will be to low in AC for melee fight? . I know that is not normaly a starting weapon for priest but i can check with my dm if it's possible or not. Or maybe ask him if i can use a Quarterstaff who look like a scyth. 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply :)


The Shillelagh spell enhances a club or quarterstaff into a 1d8 magical weapon that can use WIS instead of STR for attack and damage rolls. There is no mechanical benefit to wielding it 2-handed.

Forgoing the shield means you would take (on average) about 27% more damage from an enemy who had +5 to hit. If they also applied an on-hit effect of some sort, you'd have to deal with that 29% more often.

----------


## Drcitron

Thanks for your reply, so i think i will do the following :

 - Staying with quarterstaff/shield at start and see with my DM if i can have one who look like a scythe
 - and checking if i can later switch on a 2h style maybe later if the composition of the group permit this. 

If i dont go Shillelagh is Thorns and Absorb Elements always worth taking the feat for this or just switch for Resilliant at lvl4 or maybe the Heavly Armor one for gaining the AC by the armor if i drop the shield ? 

Sorry for all this questions, i start at D&D and try to understand de gamebetter ^^

----------


## Hairfish

Shields (or anything else that adds AC) get _more_ effective the more AC you already have.

Wielding your weapon two-handed "later on" makes even less sense, as the opposition gets tougher.

If it's super important to you to make your character exactly match the picture, that's up to you. But there's never a gameplay benefit to losing the shield, always a penalty.

----------


## Quietus

> Thanks for your reply, so i think i will do the following :
> 
>  - Staying with quarterstaff/shield at start and see with my DM if i can have one who look like a scythe
>  - and checking if i can later switch on a 2h style maybe later if the composition of the group permit this. 
> 
> If i dont go Shillelagh is Thorns and Absorb Elements always worth taking the feat for this or just switch for Resilliant at lvl4 or maybe the Heavly Armor one for gaining the AC by the armor if i drop the shield ? 
> 
> Sorry for all this questions, i start at D&D and try to understand de gamebetter ^^


Just make the Shillelagh the blade.  Normally when you carry it around, it's a general purpose quarterstaff.  When you cast Shillelagh, the spell adds a flickering, translucent blade of energy, turning it into a scythe.  Lightsaber noises optional.

----------


## Wildstag

So this is a build I've been trying to play but it requires a DM that is willing to use Unearthed Arcana, and a specific one at that. I don't know how to edit it into the standard "THIS IS MY BUILD" format, so I'll leave it with the explanation and levels that matter. When I'm not at work, I'll edit it to look better. 

This build is MAD as heck, especially depending on how you want to play. If you want to play with a sword or spear, it's MAD. If you don't mind Shillelagh, it's alright. I like to call it the "Scorpion Build", because of the trademark "GET OVER HERE" line it allows you to mimic. At its core, it is a multiclass and a controller; it almost works like the 4e Warden. The breakdown is as follows.

*Race:* Half-Elf or V-Human (the latter works better, I just don't like it as much)
*Ability Scores:* Wisdom is the most important. Either Dexterity or Strength are your secondary priorities, with Intelligence and Charisma (must be 13) following. Don't focus on Constitution, but probably also don't dump it. The attack stat you don't need and can fall off to the wayside. 
*Class Levels In Order:* Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 1 / Fighter 7 (after that it doesn't matter much)
*Subclasses:* Eldritch Knight / Sea Sorcery
*Feats:* Magic Initiate (Druid), Sentinel 
*Magic Initiate Spells:* Thorn Whip, Shillelagh, and 1 first level spell of your choice. 

Levels 1-3 (if V-Human)
As a human, take your bonuses in Wisdom and your primary physical stat. If you want heavy armor, go Strength. If you want to be unarmored, go Dexterity. Wisdom should be as high as possible though. Take Magic Initiate (Druid) and choose Thorn Whip. Shillelagh works if you want to focus exclusively on Wisdom moving forward. If you want Strength or Dexterity to matter the most, take a separate cantrip. 

At level 1 take a Fighter level for the better hit points. With Thorn Whip and a one-handed weapon you can pull people to you and keep them off the back lines. If you started with a 16 in Wisdom, it'll be hard for Thorn Whip to miss. 

At level 2, take a level in Sea Sorcery. What matters most is the ability to curse a foe with a cantrip. I lied in the last sentence, what matters most is the fact that the feature doesn't specify Sorcerer spells. _ACTUALLY_ the most important part of the level in Sorcerer is the Forced Movement curse. Every time a spell forces an opponent to move, you can add an additional 15 feet to the forced movement. Thorn Whip has a reach of 30 feet and and pulls the target 10 feet if the target is Large or Smaller. This means that every time you hit with Thorn Whip, you can activate the curse and pull the foe 25 feet towards you. 

At level 3, return to Fighter. You'll need to use Action Surge if you want to hit twice in one turn for now. 

Levels 4-8 (if V-Human)

At level 4, you get your choice of subclass. Choose Eldritch Knight because it's the best. Also choose it because it is the gish one, and you're already a gish. Pick your spells, it doesn't really matter, you'll be buffing yourself with them. 

At level 5, you can take your first class ASI. For this one, you'll want to take Sentinel. Now when people are pulled to you, they can't move away from you. You're sticky, and that's just the way you like it. 

At level 6, you get Extra Attack, which can be useful when using Action Surge. For the time being, it's just a dead-ish level for you, or a tool for when you don't want to be casting.

At level 7, you get your second Fighter ASI. Use it for stats. If you took Shillelagh as your second cantrip, then you'll want to improve Wisdom by 2 for an even higher attack roll and damage roll modifier. 

At level 8 you have reached the apex of this class. When you pull people with your cursed whip, you can use your bonus action to attack them. It seems like a weak apex, but I love it. You pull people to you and keep them there. You also get second-level spells, which is fun. 

*Alternative:* If you are Half-Elf, you get more points for other ability scores overall. The +2 charisma means you can spread point buy around in a better way and punishes you less for being MAD. However, you have to wait until level 5 to get Thorn Whip and level 7 to get Sentinel. It sucks, but it's the price you pay for having a cooler race.

*P.S.* You can kinda build this without the UA, it just means that you have to position yourself before the Thorn Whip is cast so that you're in melee range for your War Magic feature. 

*P.P.S.* Additionally, consider taking levels in Rogue (Swashbuckler) if you're focusing on Dexterity and Wisdom. With that option, you can forgo Shillelagh for a secondary Druid cantrip. It'd work better with Half-Elf, but you'd probably want an eighth level in EK for the extra ASI before multiclassing a second time. As you progress though, you'd eventually end up with 11 levels in Swashbuckler for a middling sneak attack. You can guarantee a Sneak Attack and get high damage doing it. You'd get less mileage out of Fancy Footwork unless you use a Whip, which could be pretty fun, but then you have two whips and you're less like Scorpion. 

*P.P.P.S.* I swear this is the last one, but if you want additional homebrew, you could talk to your GM about using the DMG's "Changing Spell Lists" option. With this, you could change the spell-casting class (and maybe schools) from Eldritch Knight to Druid. In this way, you wouldn't need the extra feat to get the spells you need to pull off the build. It makes both the Half-Elf and the V-Human able to pull off the stickiness of the build at level 4. It can also help the build to be less MAD. Just something to think about.

----------


## Drcitron

> Just make the Shillelagh the blade.  Normally when you carry it around, it's a general purpose quarterstaff.  When you cast Shillelagh, the spell adds a flickering, translucent blade of energy, turning it into a scythe.  Lightsaber noises optional.


I like this idea i will go with this, so it will be more simple for me.




> Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds
>     Shields (or anything else that adds AC) get more effective the more AC you already have.
> 
>     Wielding your weapon two-handed "later on" makes even less sense, as the opposition gets tougher.
> 
>     If it's super important to you to make your character exactly match the picture, that's up to you. But there's never a gameplay benefit to losing the shield, always a penalty.


I see, so i will keep my shield and use a quarterstaff for main hand weapon

Thank's for all your reply !

----------


## Wraith

> I like to call it the "Scorpion Build", because of the trademark "GET OVER HERE" line it allows you to mimic. At its core, it is a multiclass and a controller


Strange coincidence; I was thinking of more or less exactly the same sort of Sea Sorcerer/Controller build only the other day

My build, however, was more like Sea Sorcerer 1 / Warlock 2 so that I could pick up Eldritch Blast and the Eldritch Innovations  _Grasp of Hadar_ and _Repelling Blast_ right away; Between them I could Push or Pull an enemy a large distance as necessary, not just pull. It's also got much better range than Thorn Whip and, when you level up a little, multiple Blasts means multiple moves for extra effect.

Nice call on the Eldritch Knight for War Magic, though. Seems obvious, but it had completely slipped my mind.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Wildstag

> Strange coincidence; I was thinking of more or less exactly the same sort of Sea Sorcerer/Controller build only the other day
> 
> My build, however, was more like Sea Sorcerer 1 / Warlock 1 so that I could pick up Eldritch Blast and the Eldritch Innovations  _Grasp of Hadar_ and _Repelling Blast_ right away; Between them I could Push or Pull an enemy a large distance as necessary, not just pull. It's also got much better range than Thorn Whip and, when you level up a little, multiple Blasts means multiple moves for extra effect.
> 
> Nice call on the Eldritch Knight for War Magic, though. Seems obvious, but it had completely slipped my mind.


Sea Sorcery lends itself to map control builds, I just tend to play martials and gish, so I think of builds that aid that job. Warden was my favorite 4e class, and this kinda gives off that feel while emulating the job of "protector through stickiness". Your path seems more like a full-caster route, which is cool too, just not my cup of tea. 

Ostensibly a Bard could do most of this without Magic Initiate, but then you'd have to wait until level 15 to even do it, so it's an option but for so late in the game noone really reaches it. Level 14 is the earliest if you go Bard/Sorcerer/Fighter. I don't know of other classes that get War Magic though.

----------


## Wraith

> I don't know of other classes that get War Magic though.


War Magic is unique to Eldritch Knight 6, so you'd have to find another way. There's one alternative that I can think of from the top of my, though:

Race: V.Human
Class: Sea Sorcerer 1 / Druid 1
Feat: Polearm Master

Wield a quarterstaff and take Thorn Whip as a cantrip, pull an enemy to you from ~25 feet away, and then Attack of Opportunity when they get close enough. Normally forced movement doesn't cause an AoO, but Polearm Master specifically states "when [the target] enters your reach", and when specific clashes with general then it seems to work. 

Otherwise? Sea Sorcerer 1 / Druid 1 / Fighter 2 and burn an Action Surge to cast and then attack immediately, I guess?

----------


## Wildstag

> War Magic is unique to Eldritch Knight 6, so you'd have to find another way. There's one alternative that I can think of from the top of my, though:
> 
> Race: V.Human
> Class: Sea Sorcerer 1 / Druid 1
> Feat: Polearm Master
> 
> Wield a quarterstaff and take Thorn Whip as a cantrip, pull an enemy to you from ~25 feet away, and then Attack of Opportunity when they get close enough. Normally forced movement doesn't cause an AoO, but Polearm Master specifically states "when [the target] enters your reach", and when specific clashes with general then it seems to work. 
> 
> Otherwise? Sea Sorcerer 1 / Druid 1 / Fighter 2 and burn an Action Surge to cast and then attack immediately, I guess?


Bards get Battle Magic, which is effectively the same but comes at level 14 of the Valor Bard kit. Otherwise, EK is the only way to do it.

Edit: Also do not that with Sea Sorcery you only get the bonus forced movement once per turn. Multiple blasts doesn't mean additional bursts of 15 feet of movement, you only get it the once.

----------


## 8wGremlin

> *Race:* Half-Elf or V-Human (the latter works better, I just don't like it as much)
> *Ability Scores:* Wisdom is the most important. Either Dexterity or Strength are your secondary priorities, with Intelligence and Charisma (must be 13) following. Don't focus on Constitution, but probably also don't dump it. The attack stat you don't need and can fall off to the wayside. 
> *Class Levels In Order:* Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 1 / Fighter 7 (after that it doesn't matter much)
> *Subclasses:* Eldritch Knight / Sea Sorcery
> *Feats:* Magic Initiate (Druid), Sentinel 
> *Magic Initiate Spells:* Thorn Whip, Shillelagh, and 1 first level spell of your choice..


using Tasha's you have access to the feat 


> Youve learned some of an artificers inventiveness:
> 
> You learn one cantrip of your choice from the artificer spell list, and you learn one 1st-level spell of your choice from that list. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for these spells.You can cast this feats 1st-level spell without a spell slot, and you must finish a long rest before you can cast it in this way again. You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have.You gain proficiency with one type of artisans tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.


Artificers have Thornwhip on their spell list. 
it uses INT, thus reducing the need for such a High wisdom. 
You're casting implement can be a spoon (cooking utensils - artisan tool)

----------


## Wildstag

> using Tasha's you have access to the feat 
> Artificers have Thornwhip on their spell list. 
> it uses INT, thus reducing the need for such a High wisdom. 
> You're casting implement can be a spoon (cooking utensils - artisan tool)


Ah, fair, this was a pre-Tasha's build. It would make you less MAD, but even then I'd still invest in Wisdom. The spells that target Wisdom saving throws are more dangerous in my opinion than the ones that target Intelligence. And you don't really need a high Intelligence for the build anyways since you'll be taking Wizard spells that don't rely on attack rolls or DCs. 

Still, if you would prefer to have the versatility of being able to use DC, attack roll, and utility spells from the Eldritch Knight options, the feat you suggest would be a good alternative. It's a lateral refinement, I'd say. 

Could still start with a Str14/Dex10/Con12/Int16/Wis10/Cha13 as V-Human. As a Half-Elf, we can adjust that to Str14/Dex10/Con12/Int16/Wis12/Cha13 and still have a bonus to those troubling Wisdom saves. 

Thanks for the tip!

----------


## Wraith

> Edit: Also do note that with Sea Sorcery you only get the bonus forced movement once per turn. Multiple blasts doesn't mean additional bursts of 15 feet of movement, you only get it the once.


I know, but for the specific purpose of moving targets around, Sea Sorcerer 1 is still more efficient than 6 more levels of another class.

Eldritch Blast at level 5 is 2 blasts, 10ft each. With Sea Sorcerer, that's 10+10+15; that is greater distance than Eldritch Blast at level 11, which is only 10+10+10. It's a gimmick, sure, but you said that you preferred a Martial build so I was going for as small-a dip as possible to get the most efficient bonus to tack on to your Fighter/whatever 

On top of that, Eldritch Blast has a range of 120ft while Thorn Whip is only 30ft, and uses d10's as opposed to d6's for damage. It's just a better spell all around even when you're not trying to pull off the Pull-and-Stab combo, I think. 
The downside, I suppose, is that you'd need a two level dip for Warlock, or otherwise spend two feats on Magic Initiate (Warlock) and then on Eldritch Adept for Grasp of Hadar. That way might not be terrible however; since you're already multiclassed into Sorcerer then you don't need to be MAD for both WIS (gettting the best out of Druid Initiate) and CHA, since you already have the CHA focus?

Race: V.Human
Class: Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 1 /Fighter 6
Subclass: Sea Sorcerer / Eldritch Knight
Feats: Magic Initiate (Warlock: Eldritch Blast), Eldritch Adept (Grasp of Hadar), ((Sentinel or Polearm Master))

I think that's a decent alternative. The downside is that you trade an ASI for a feat, but on the other hand your combo has a greater ranger, does more damage, can pull an enemy to you from further away, and you can afford to dump WIS which can potentially make up for the ASI you missed - especially if you're point-buying your stats.  :Small Smile:

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## Wildstag

Once you focus on pushing away instead of yoinking someone next to you, you kinda lose the essence of the build though, hence it's name "Scorpion". It's a build to effectively play that character from Mortal Kombat. Sea Sorcery is the thing that makes the build complete, but it's not the ONLY thing that makes the build what it is. Yes, there are better ways to use Sea Sorcery for map control but those are different builds.

It'd probably be a fun build though.

P.S. After some thought overnight, I think the Artificer feat option is actually just overall an upgrade to the build, not just a lateral improvement. I'll probably edit the original post with a blurb about what it used to be. Thanks 8wgremlin!

----------


## CMCC

> Race: V.Human
> Class: Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 1 /Fighter 6
> Subclass: Sea Sorcerer / Eldritch Knight
> Feats: Magic Initiate (Warlock: Eldritch Blast), Eldritch Adept (Grasp of Hadar), ((Sentinel or Polearm Master))


How are you using grasp of hadar without any warlock levels?

----------


## Jon talks a lot

> How are you using grasp of hadar without any warlock levels?


It's from the feat, I think. Am probably wrong though.

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## x3n0n

> It's from the feat, I think. Am probably wrong though.


Just fleshing out the observation: even if you have Eldritch Blast from some other source, the Eldritch Adept feat specifically says that non-Warlocks can't take any invocation that has any prerequisite.

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## Wraith

> Just fleshing out the observation: even if you have Eldritch Blast from some other source, the Eldritch Adept feat specifically says that non-Warlocks can't take any invocation that has any prerequisite.


Oof, I misread that as that if you weren't a Warlock you must still meet the pre-reqs, for some reason. Thanks for correcting me.

So like I suggested way up the thread, it works with Sorcerer 1/Warlock 2 then, which at least saves you from having to spend two feats and/or locking you into V.Human. Hexblade Pact for _Armour of Agathys_, _Shield_ and Hexblade's Curse isn't the worst thing in the world, especially if if you're wanting to drag people up to you and deal a little bit more damage while also risking retaliation.

Or just completely lose the plot and go Sorc 1/Warlock 1 *and* spend a feat on Eldritch Adept, if you're desperate to keep your dip as small as possible for more Fighter levels. Can't say that's what I'd do, but I can see why someone might try it...

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## Wildstag

> Oof, I misread that as that if you weren't a Warlock you must still meet the pre-reqs, for some reason. Thanks for correcting me.
> 
> So like I suggested way up the thread, it works with Sorcerer 1/Warlock 2 then, which at least saves you from having to spend two feats and/or locking you into V.Human. Hexblade Pact for _Armour of Agathys_, _Shield_ and Hexblade's Curse isn't the worst thing in the world, especially if if you're wanting to drag people up to you and deal a little bit more damage while also risking retaliation.
> 
> Or just completely lose the plot and go Sorc 1/Warlock 1 *and* spend a feat on Eldritch Adept, if you're desperate to keep your dip as small as possible for more Fighter levels. Can't say that's what I'd do, but I can see why someone might try it...


My only issue with additional multiclass levels is that you delay the actual effect that makes the build work even longer. A build that takes until level 10 to actually start doing its thing is a bad build in my eyes, since most tables don't last long after level 13/14. Sorc1/Wlock2/Ftr7 delays the battle magic by two levels and is still just as MAD as the alternatives. 

You'd still need as much Con, Str, Int, and Charisma. To use heavy armor you need a certain amount of strength, but if you invest further into Charisma you'd have to sacrifice Str or Con, and Con is too necessary. So far, the Artificer feat leaves the build the least MAD, since you don't need to invest in two different casting stats, just a 13 so you can MC into/out of Sorcerer. You can make do with Str/Int with token Con and Charisma. 

Plus, Sorc1/Wlock2 saves you a feat but you end up with two feats at level 10; the Ftr8/Sorc1 build has three feats and gets the same effect in fewer levels.

Edit: The build idea is basically a tank that actually aggros well. By pulling foes to you and keeping them there, you're playing a necessary role. The fighter levels and a moderate Constitution are necessary to actually stay alive, since eventually your foes will stop running away from you and eliminate you first. Because with a weapon you WILL be having both hands full for implement and weapon, you need Strength as high as possible to get good AC. I just don't see how it's optimal to take Warlock levels in place of Fighter levels. You'd end up with lower AC, a later progression, and a lower HD (and thus lower hp cap).

----------


## DevanAvalon

> Might look something like this:
> 
> Ye olde Sharpshooter Samurai gets a newfangled weapon.
> 
> *The Modern Gun-Kata Master*
> 
> _Like the ancient kyujutsu master, but with a tanegashima._
> 
> *Shadar-Kai Samurai 20*
> ...


so I've been looking at the Gunner-Rai and I'm sitting here trying so hard to figure out the best order to get the feats in. Gunner at 4 (assuming you can manage to get a Musket by that time), or EA first? and if that's the case, would it be better to do 16 Dex at first, Gunner at 4 for 17, EA at 6 to 18, max at 8, Piercer at next level?

----------


## LudicSavant

> so I've been looking at the Gunner-Rai and I'm sitting here trying so hard to figure out the best order to get the feats in. Gunner at 4 (assuming you can manage to get a Musket by that time), or EA first? and if that's the case, would it be better to do 16 Dex at first, Gunner at 4 for 17, EA at 6 to 18, max at 8, Piercer at next level?


I went SS, then EA, then Gunner, then Piercer.  But you could also go Gunner first if you can afford the musket; it'll give you a little higher non-advantage damage but lower advantage damage, and of course will help if your party wants to knock things prone (because you can't take advantage of people being prone unless you have Gunner).

I find it really tough to give up SS, not just for the -5/+10 but also for the ability to ignore cover and range increments.

You should start with 17 Dex so that your 3 half-feats bring you up to 20.

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## Jon talks a lot

I have spent the entire day brewing up a build (I only use the PHB) that is supposed to be a solo game (you and the gm) character. My initial thought was a warlock with darkness/way of shadows monk multiclass to teleport around the battlefield and never get hit. Slowly, it morphed into something else entirely. Since I don't have any party members, I needed healing, damage, and good tactics in order to stay alive, let alone win. So without further ado, I present my build:

Race: Drow (+2 dex, +1 Charisma)
Class(es): Rogue 4, Fighter 6, Monk 6, Paladin 4.
Progression: Rogue 3, Monk 6, Paladin 2, Fighter 6, Paladin 4, Rogue 4.
Point Buy stats: 8 strength, 14 Dex, 12 con, 10 intelligence, 15 wisdom, 13 charisma.
ASI's: Max out dex, then wisdom, +1 charisma.
Subclass: Rogue, Assassin. Fighter, Champion. Monk, Way of the Shadows. Paladin, Oath of Devotion (This can be changed).
AC: 20 (monk feature)
Speed: 45ft (also monk feature)
Weapons:
Rapier, highest damaging Finesse Weapon
Quarterstaff, monk weapon
Light Crossbow, Ranged
Ki: 6
Spells (Paladin): 3 slots, 5 known.
Cure Wounds (healing)
Command (Our only way to control the battlefield)
Protection from Good and Evil (best oath of devotion spell)
Shield of Faith (pre-combat casting for a nice 22 ac is good)
Thunderous Smite (I needed one more spell and I like this more than wrathful smite)

Logic:
The underlying strategy is still leveraging darkness to our advantage. We can do this in two ways. First, the drow magic racial ability gives us one cast of darkness per long rest. Second, way of the shadows monk gives us darkness by spending 2 ki, so an extra 3 casts per long rest. Drow racial ability of Superior dark vision. We can leverage darkness with shadow step, and sneak attack. We essentially get Perma sneak attack on anyone in a 15-foot radius, as well as just having the perks of advantage at all times. The archetype is assassin because surprise can be achieved through darkness (dm fiat) and because it's just better for this strategy. Fighter is here for three major reasons. First, action surge. Second, another extra attack. Third, Champion archetype. A lot of this build revolves around crit fishing for maximum damage, and champion gives improved critical. A common fight scene with this build will be cast darkness for advantage. Sneak attack with monk weapon for 1d6+2d6 and if you crit, which is a 14 or higher with improved critical plus a +5 dexterity modifier, that's double damage, and then you are going to want to add another 2d8 for smite coming out to 2(1d6+2d6+2d8) and 1d4 unarmored strike bonus action with martial arts (monk feature). Then you still have 2 extra attacks AND an action surge if you want to use it. Next, mobility. Our movement speed, because we are unarmored, is 45 feet. We also have cunning action to dash with. AND we have shadow step if there is any more darkness in a dungeon then we get a free teleport as well. In terms of healing, we have very good healing capabilities. There is second wind from fighter. Lay on Hands and Cure Wounds from Paladin. We can also prevent a lot of damage with some key monk abilities. Primarily deflect missiles and slow fall.


Now, is this the best build possible? No, not at all. However, this is very powerful as a do-everything character for either small parties or no party (solo). It wouldn't be good to play this in a larger party (4 or more) because you would be trying to fulfil everyone's role. Additionally, the primary strategy used is not something very compatible with other players unless they also have a way to see through darkness (superior dark vision and devil's sight).

Edit: Can't multi into pali without 13 strength. Here are the new stats in order: 13, 20, 10, 8, 20, 14. Or alternatively, get your dm to handwave that rule.

----------


## Gignere

> I have spent the entire day brewing up a build (I only use the PHB) that is supposed to be a solo game (you and the gm) character. My initial thought was a warlock with darkness/way of shadows monk multiclass to teleport around the battlefield and never get hit. Slowly, it morphed into something else entirely. Since I don't have any party members, I needed healing, damage, and good tactics in order to stay alive, let alone win. So without further ado, I present my build:
> 
> Race: Drow (+2 dex, +1 Charisma)
> Class(es): Rogue 4, Fighter 6, Monk 6, Paladin 4.
> Progression: Rogue 3, Monk 6, Paladin 2, Fighter 6, Paladin 4, Rogue 4.
> Point Buy stats: 8 strength, 14 Dex, 12 con, 10 intelligence, 15 wisdom, 13 charisma.
> ASI's: Max out dex, then wisdom, +1 charisma.
> Subclass: Rogue, Assassin. Fighter, Champion. Monk, Way of the Shadows. Paladin, Oath of Devotion (This can be changed).
> AC: 20 (monk feature)
> ...


This build isnt RAW cant multi into Paladin without minimum 13 strength. If your DM hand waved it good for you, but not RAW.

----------


## Jon talks a lot

> This build isnt RAW cant multi into Paladin without minimum 13 strength. If your DM hand waved it good for you, but not RAW.


Thank you, I have reworked it into stats: 13 strength, 20 dex, 10 con, 8 int, 20 wis, 14 charisma.

----------


## Gignere

> Good as dead, I'm afraid.


Well its a solo campaign so the DM has to pull his/her punches. Might work in this case having a 10 con. But I wouldnt recommend for a normal campaign.

----------


## Klorox

> Well its a solo campaign so the DM has to pull his/her punches. Might work in this case having a 10 con. But I wouldnt recommend for a normal campaign.


If the whole campaign is only one character, you can play whatever you want.  There is no optimizing needed, because the DM will tailor everything towards you.

----------


## Granitecosmos

> *Simic Hybrid gives us:*
> 
> 1. Extra arms (Tentacles!) to grapple up to 2 enemies without using our main hands (so we can still hold shield + sword or two-handed weapon) or up to 4 for maximum CC. We have 2 attacks, we can grapple two enemies into our party Hazard. Next turn you can shove them if you want with your weapon or just keep them there.


Correct me if I'm mistaken but Simic Hybrid specifically calls for an action to grapple with the appendages, unless you use them to attack the regular way, in which case it's essentially Tavern Brawler. Loxodon doesn't have this problem.

----------


## Bloodcloud

Quick question:

How is this thread not in the notable thread list?

Mods, this seems like an oversight...

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## LudicSavant

Wrote this up real quick in response to a thread asking about making Dexadins.




> Paladins who follow the Watchers' oath are ever vigilant in spotting the influence of extraplanar forces, often establishing a network of spies and informants to gather information on suspected cults.


Who says a Paladin is about being a big clanky man who ruins stealth for the party?  A Watcher remains hidden in the shadows, ever vigilant for fiends from beyond.  And when they appear, their oath demands swift death to evil.

Here we have a Dex-based Paladin that transforms all of their allies into a deadly alpha strike team.  A holy ninja strike team leader, if you will.  

Fluffwise, Im imagining something like the Medjai secret society from the Mummy, or a Templar assassin.

*Build 16:  Swift Death to Evil (Oath of the Watchers Assassin/Spymaster)* 


*Mark of Shadow Elf Watchers Paladin 20*
*Starting Stats (point buy):*  17 Dex / 16 Cha / 14 Con / rest to taste
*Fighting Style*:  Blind-Fighting
*ASIs*:  Revenant Blade, Elven Accuracy, Fey-Touched (Gift of Alacrity), Max Dex, Max Cha.  In whatever order.  
(Example:  Revenant Blade (+1 Dex), Elven Accuracy (+1 Cha), Fey-Touched (+1 Cha), +2 Dex, +2 Cha.  
Or if you want to max Dex ASAP:  Revenant Blade (+1 Dex) / +2 Dex / Elven Accuracy (+1 Cha) / Fey-Touched (+1 Cha) /  +2 Cha)

Mark of Shadow adds all of the following to the Paladin spell list, not a single one of which was already there:



> 1st	disguise self, silent image
> 2nd	darkness, pass without trace
> 3rd	clairvoyance, major image
> 4th	greater invisibility, hallucinatory terrain
> 5th	mislead


It also adds Minor Illusion at level 1, Invisibility 1/day at level 3, and pseudo-Expertise in Stealth.

Fey-Touched hands us Gift of Alacrity (which gives us a non-Concentration +1d8 to initiative for 8 entire hours).  With the free slot and Harness Divine Power we can basically afford to hand out Init bonuses willy-nilly.  Oh, and a Misty Step too, always handy for a melee character.

Revenant Blade is kind of like a half-feat version of PAM that lets you be Dex-based, with all the good things that entails.  

Elven Accuracy of course goes great with our many ways to get Advantage, and our ability to capitalize on crits with smites.

And all of this combos well together.  Frankly all of these things are good enough that I don't care overmuch what order you get them in, other than that I'd probably bump Dex at 4 (since you don't have the aura yet anywho).

*A Deadly Alpha Strike for the Whole Party*
Few things can actually take 2 rounds of an entire party hitting it before it gets a turn.  Plus the opportunity to scout/pre-cast.  And that's exactly what you're going to make happen.

Cast Pass Without Trace to make everyone stealthy (you yourself have +21+1d4 stealth).  Get surprise, make the whole party win initiative all the time with Gift of Alacrity+Aura of the Sentinel  (you yourself have +11+1d8 initiative), and smite things into oblivion before they get a turn, in tandem with your entire team.  You are a charismatic strike team leader after all.

And that's just the first trick in your toolkit.

*Other Tricks in your Toolkit*
For starters...

You've also got the deadly Darkness+Blind Fighting+Elven Accuracy crit-smite-fishing combo in there.  As well as the team combos it enables (see the Way of the Demonweb Spider build for more in-depth commentary on Darkness strategies.  Additional note for Paladins:  your Find Steed can just disengage for free, Dashing at full speed, not getting in the way of anyone)

You also can give yourself triple advantage criftishing and vision denial with Greater Invisibility.

You also wreck just about every kind of save even more than usual for a Paladin, thanks to your high Dex and Watchers abilities.    And Counterspell, too.

Your stealthiness actually helps with your Channel Divinity, which is best used as a pre-cast.

Minor Illusion is one of the very few spells without a V component, so you can use it to mess with people or set up the field without revealing yourself.

Disguise Self is a level 1 non-Concentration infiltration tool, and you absolutely have the Charisma for Deception, Persuasion, etc, and the Dexterity for roguish activities.  You've also got a free use of Invisibility every day.  And a Misty Step.  And Nondetection to counter divinations.  And Scrying.  You're well-equipped to be an infiltrator and spy for the Watchers.

Nondetection counters a number of the things that can normally counter stealthy alpha strike parties, making the Watcher Paladin even more suited for that playstyle.

Clairvoyance (from the Mark of Shadow) can not only scout or spy, but it can combo with Misty Step in order to jump through walls, at a lower level than Dimension Door.

Harness Divine Power variant is great and you should use it.  It basically offers a non-situational use for your Channel Divinity.

If you get caught out of range (which should happen rarely, since you have the tools to get the drop on enemies _and_ to move really fast), you can switch to a bow.  Or, you can kite non-ranged foes with a bow, using your steed/pegasus.

No multiclassing means you get Find Greater Steed, Improved Divine Smite, fear immunity aura, full ASIs, the big aura, capstone, full Lay on Hands, etc.

As a fun side note, you're just kind of accidentally great at Performance checks (because of 20 Cha + Mark of Shadow), so you can totally pose as a performer for your infiltrations if you feel like it.  Take advantage of the fact that you don't need armor or bulky weaponry and just go in as a belly dancer for the doomed sultan.   :Small Big Grin: 

Consider asking your local mage for Mage Armor once you hit 20 Dex (unless you have magic armor).   You can wear medium armor until you get your Dex high enough to switch to light / none.

*Variants*:
- The GWF fighting style works here too, particularly if your DM rules that it works with smites (contrary to the SAC ruling).  Defense fighting style will give you an AC equivalent to wielding a shield. 
- Mark of Passage Humans also gets Pass Without Trace on their list.
- Ravnica backgrounds can get you even more spells.  It can also be an alternate way to get Pass Without Trace, if you wanna be a different race.
- As mentioned above, you can take the ASIs in just about whatever order you like.  You also could go rapier-and-shield or dual-wielding, and swap in something in place of Revenant Blade.
- Rolling for stats can be a big boon for MAD builds, and open up some extra feat slots for you for things like, say, Inspiring Leader, Lucky, Alert, Telepathic, Skill Expert, whatever.

----------


## bendking

> *Build 16:  Swift Death to Evil (Oath of the Watchers Assassin/Spymaster)*


As always a great build. I love the addition of Revenant Blade.
I know it's only a variant, but to me, the Blind Fighting is mandatory to the build and shouldn't ever be switched for GWF. I would only consider it if, as you said, the DM doesn't go by SAC ruling.

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## Gignere

> Wrote this up real quick in response to a thread asking about making Dexadins.
> 
> 
> 
> Who says a Paladin is about being a big clanky man who ruins stealth for the party?  A Watcher remains hidden in the shadows, ever vigilant for fiends from beyond.  And when they appear, their oath demands swift death to evil.
> 
> Here we have a Dex-based Paladin that transforms all of their allies into a deadly alpha strike team.  A holy ninja strike team leader, if you will.
> 
> *Build 16:  Swift Death to Evil (Oath of the Watchers Assassin/Spymaster)*


I think I found my next character. If Tashas options is in play, its probably optimal to fight with rapier/short sword and board and pick up either dueling or defense, then at level 4 when you pick up revenant blade go blindfighting using the fighting style swap to pick it up.

Also dumping strength is probably suboptimal if medium armor is recommended until 20 dex, especially if encumbrance is tracked.

----------


## Ir0ns0ul

I think I just reached level 12 and spent my ASI to round-up my INT to 20 after reading this last build from Ludic.

----------


## ftafp

*The Umbral Messiah*


_He who doubts support clerics can be edgy, let him look upon this build and hear Crawling In My Skin in his head_

*Race:* Half-Drow
*Class:* Hexblade 2/Peace Cleric 6/Ancients Paladin 7
*Stats:* 13 STR, (10+2) DEX, 12 CON, 8 INT, 14 WIS, (15+1) CHA
*ASI:* CHA [email protected], CHA [email protected]
*Invocations:* Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast
*Fighting Style:* Blind Fighting

Level 1 is the most boring level. Hexblade gives us all the standard benefits: CHA SADness, Hexblade's Curse, Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast, Shield, and Armor of Agathys. Hex 2 gives us our invocations and now for something completely different.

Peace Cleric as anyone can tell you is a fantastic dip. Just one level nets you emboldening bond, which is just like bless except concentration-free and you can cast to PB times a day. Most builds stop there but we're taking this to Level 6 and you'll see why soon enough. Now, one of the great things about Clerics is that many of their best spells don't really need wisdom. Bless, Healing Word, Heroism and Aid are fantastic support spells, and while Spirit Guardians is lessened by a bad save dc it's still a half damage mobile AoE with difficult terrain on top. But no, we're not here for that. 

What we're here for is level 6 when we get Protective Bond, allowing anyone bonded to teleport to someone's aid as a reaction, taking the damage for them. It's a useful ability, and most players usually slap that on the tank, but your tank only has one reaction a round, and it only has so much hp as well. The simple fact is they can't tank everything, and if an enemy is throwing out massive amounts of damage you might benefit from a disposable tank. Well, as luck would have it, we have a spell for that in Animate Dead, letting you animate zombies with 22 hp and  undead fortitude, making them fairly reusable. These zombies can be kept safely within 30 feet of you at all times by stashing them in a bag of holding. Once there they can use their own reactions to sacrifice themselves for you or your allies.remember that your Emboldening Bond will apply the zombie's undead fortitude saving throw, meaning they have a better shot at surviving and tanking another blow

With our Peace cleric peaked, it's time to switch classes, and next on our list is Paladin. Paladin 2 will give us two major benefits, the first being divine smite, allowing us to improve our melee damage, and the second being Blind Fighting, which pairs perfectly with our half-drow ability to cast Darkness, allowing us to  blind enemies but not ourselves, meaning more attacks miss us, fewer enemy spells can find their mark and we have advantage on attack rolls against enemies. neat Paladin 5 will get us extra attack (always welcome) and then at 6 we get our Aura

So, quick thing to note here. Remember how your zombies could make a saving throw not to drop to 0 hp? Now, whenever they teleport in to protect you or an ally in 15 feet of you, they can add your CHA bonus to their save on top of the Emboldening Bond, making them even tankier. This only gets better at level 7 when you get Aura of Warding, granting you, your zombies and any other allies resistance to spell damage.

----------


## LudicSavant

> *The Umbral Messiah*
> 
> 
> _He who doubts support clerics can be edgy, let him look upon this build and hear Crawling In My Skin in his head_
> 
> *Race:* Half-Drow
> *Class:* Hexblade 2/Peace Cleric 6/Ancients Paladin 7
> *Stats:* 13 STR, (10+2) DEX, 12 CON, 8 INT, 14 WIS, (15+1) CHA
> *ASI:* CHA [email protected], CHA [email protected]
> ...


This is a really intriguing idea for a support build, using zombies for extra reactions and having them benefit from your ability to pump saving throws, and use saving throws to resist death from smaller attacks.  Has decent healing, and EB/Darkness/B-F/Curse or Cha-based smiting for damage options to round out its support kit.  Thanks for submitting this!   :Small Big Grin: 

I notice the build ends at level 15 -- I'm curious how you'd finish it out.

----------


## ftafp

> This is a really intriguing idea for a support build, using zombies for extra reactions and having them benefit from your ability to pump saving throws, and use saving throws to resist death from smaller attacks.  Has decent healing, and EB/Darkness/B-F/Curse or Cha-based smiting for damage options to round out its support kit.  Thanks for submitting this!  
> 
> I notice the build ends at level 15 -- I'm curious how you'd finish it out.


Thank you!

In terms of maxing the build out I might take one more level of cleric just for death ward (notably because death ward is a disposable effect you can cast it several times on the same creature and have its effects stack) and take the rest in paladin. Plant growth combined with repelling blast is fantastic control at any level and improved divine smite is decent to have.

I've also run over several other variations in my head for this build. The hexadin aspect of the build was more because I didn't want to post a single-class build. In fact, pure Peace would probably be more optimal and could still pull the same trick off (albeit with less tanky zombies). Depending on your DM, a small race might be better than a half-drow (just replace blind fighting with defense) as you can take Mounted Combatant and stand on a medium ally's back. This would let your stretch your emboldened bond one ally further, as you can take most of the damage for that ally while your zombies take the damage for you.

----------


## Wraith

> Sure, send me a list of short descriptions and if it looks like everything's in order I'll add it.


Had a go while it was quiet at work, I hope I haven't mistaken anyone's theme/intention by too great of a margin...

*Spoiler: Summarised Builds from the Thread*
Show


The Eldritch Blast Knight by Bloodcloud
V.Human Tomelock that uses Eldritch Knight's War Magic to make the most of a buffed Eldritch Blast.The Tiefling Masochist by Story_Optimized
Tiefling Warlock/Storm Cleric who passively reflects amplified damage back at their aggressors.The Fey Knight by SithLordNergal
Half-Elf Ancients Paladin/Dreams Druid with a tiny splash of Sorcerer. You teleport around like crazy and SMASH people into the dirt with one huge strike. Or even several huge strikes, if you like.The Passive Soul by Ritorix
V.Human Divine Soul Sorcerer that buffs and heals the entire party with all the added benefits of metamagic.The Battle Valkyrie Life Cleric by Man_Over_Game
V.Human Life Cleric/Sorcerer, healing from the front-line and taking advantage of Distant, Twinned Warding Bond to reduce incoming damage to multiple members of the party.King Leonidas by Tallytrev813
V.Human Totem Barbarian who stands in the maelstrom of battle and _does not_ take damage.The Warlord Halfling by Mjolnirbear
Battlemaster of many races, but prefers a Halfling to share Bountiful Luck and a variety of buffs with allies.Dragonriders by Mjolnirbear
Kobold Paladin riding a dinosaur. What, you wanted more? WHY!?The Undecided Spare by Mjolnirbear
Stacking multiple low-level dips into a towering threat.The Dilettante by Mjolnirbear
Multiple multiclasses to melee in nearly any way you can think of.The Dabbler by Mjolnirbear
As above, but all the spellcasting classes to be able to cast a little bit of everything.The Stab of All Trades by Skylivedk
Multiclassing the CHA classes to combine into a formidable all-purpose frontliner.The Tank of All Trades by Skylivedk
Tanky Rogue with Proficiency in ALL the saves and some extra spellcasting from Lore Bard.The Never-Ending Ward by Skylivedk
Gnome Abjuration Wizard for racial synergy, splashing into Conquest Paladin to ruin another Wizard's day.The Kinetic Blaster and Jedi Tank by AtomicWrath
Half-Elf Fighter/Warlock that forcibly moves targets wherever they want them to be.The Flying Tank by AtomicWrath
Dragonborn Ancestral Barbarian/Artificer Battlesmith who gets up in the BBEG's face while debuffing the next most dangerous threat remotely.Yeti, PhD by AtomicWrath
Bugbear Fighter/Artificer who combines supreme reach with Polearm Master and some key magical items.Jedi Tank by AtomicWrath
V.Human Battlemaster Fighter/Great Old One Tomelock that frontlines in the fight and masters the minds of others elsewhere.Nature is Magical by Mercurias
V.Human Arcana Cleric/Land Druid, highly melee capable and with multiple spells for every occasion.The Advokist Tomb Raider by AtomicWrath
INTelligent Vedalken Artificer who picks up Forge Cleric and War Wizard to reach a ridiculous AC and then plough into the fight with AoE damage AND skills check bonuses to make a Rogue envious.The Shadow Whip by ThatDuckGrant
V.Human Shadow Sorcerer with a Hexblade dip. Debuff the enemy and then Booming Blad-...Lash them without mercy.Whippy the Wonder Goblin by Amechra
Goblin Sword Bard/Kensei Monk, turning the humble whip into a threat from any space by combining Reach and high mobility.The Savage Shield by Amechra
Lizardfolk Barbarian/Kensei Monk. All your favourite Monk things, but with Natural Armour and custom-built shield to see you through the thickest of fighting.Mr. Disintegration Pistol by Amechra
Shifter Ranger/Kensei Monk. Master the hand-crossbow and hone it to perfection through your mystical bond.The ZombieNaught by Skylivedk
Half-Orc Long Death Monk/Thief/Zealot Barbarian. You Grapple something and then tear it to pieces with your bare hands while soaking up whatever they can throw back at you.4 Arms of Grappling Death by Skylivedk
Simic Hybrid Battlemaster with a handful of dips into Hexblade, Ranger and Rogue to make the ultimate grappling machine.Swift Blade & Bottle by Skylivedk
Elven Eldritch Knight that picks up Hexblade/Sorcerer/Thief dips to maximize DPS, both from items and direct attacking.Spider-Man by Skylivedk
Wood Elf Battlemaster/Thief/Monk. You can run wherever you want, drop as far as you like, and murder whatever you land on.Monsieur DeLafleur, Cook Extraordinaire! by Amechra
V.Human Bard that turns every short rest into a tasty snack that buffs the entire party.The Booming Trickster by BarneyBent
Wood Elf Trickery Cleric/Arcane Trickster Rogue that Booming Blades from the shadows without ever breaking cover.The True Skill Monkey by Amechra
Half-Elf Charlatan Rogue/Lore Bard. The only thing he doesn't know, is how to not know something.Arcie the ridiculously lucky Arcane Trickster by GorogInput
Halfling Arcane Trickster Rogue that dips into Divination Wizard and both Luck-based feats to make sure everything always goes your way.YEET by Trickery
Halfling Warlock/Sorcerer who uses Eldritch Blasts from unexpected angles to launch enemies in every unexpected direction.Tesla Coils by FableWright
Gnome Tempest Cleric/Evocation Wizard. Abuse Overchannel and Destructive Wrath to maximise the potential of the humble Lightning Bolt.The UberMage by Story_Optimized
Winged Tiefling Tempest Cleric/Hexblade/War Wizard. A strong rival for the Iron/Nuclear Wizards; immense spellcasting twinned with impressive AC.The Divine Conduit by RingoBongo
Wood Elf (or Halfling) Inquisitive Rogue/War Cleric. Pick a target; determine it's weaknesses, then exploit them with pin-point longbow accuracy.Vesselyth, the Clockwork Bandit by Mjolnirbear
A small Artificer masquerading as a non-Rogue Thief. Skills a-plenty, but more locksmith than sneaky infiltrator. The God of Lightning by bendking
V.Human Tempest Cleric/Storm Sorcerer. Another variant on optimised Lightning damage for every occasion.Building Iron Man by AgenderAcree
V.Human Artillerist Artificer, themed around appropriate items and skills to make your very own Avenger in D&D.The Feywarden by Justin Sane
Wood Elf Scout Rogue/Fey Wanderer Ranger. A HUGE list of skills that brings Sneak Attacks and buffed Dual Wielding to the fight.The Grease Trap by Citadel97501
V.Human Sorcerer/Fighter/Rogue, Grease-ing and grappling enemies to make sure they never get up long enough to fight back.Celestial Dragonforge Cleric, Master of the Searing Smite, by AgenderAcree
CHA-based Forge Cleric/Celestial Tomelock/Draconic Sorcerer. Double-down on bonus CHA, Fire and Radiant damage from multiple sources, multiple times per hit.Zealot of Death, by Benny89
Aasimar Hexblade/Zealot Barbarian. You face only the greatest of champions one-on-one and claim their souls for the Dark Powers of Death.The Caster's Bane, by Alucard89
How do you become the bane of spellcasters across the lands? Yuan-Ti Hexblade/Ancients Paladin/Divine Soul Sorcerer is how.Plague Stalker, by Alucard89
V.Human Spore Druid/Gloom Stalker Ranger. Guardian of the Forest who stacks multiple abilities and refines them into raw DPS.The Astral Pariah, by ftafp
Protector Aasimar Paladin/Moon Druid. You turn into a Beast and then rip and tear with added Smiting. Who can fly.The Templar of Time, by Bobthewizard
Half-Elf Hexblade/Echo Knight Fighter. A spectacular melee nova for multiple attacks and incredible stacks of damage.The Hex Spoon by ftafp
Mark of Hospitality Halfling which takes a Tome Hexblade, dips into Life Cleric, Shadow Sorcerer and Alchemist to turn short rests into a feast of super-charged Goodberries.The Skill Monkey's Country Cousin by Kvard51
Tabaxi Scout Rogue with a handful of small runs into skill-heavy subclasses. You get proficiencies in a huge amount of skills, though are (broadly speaking) more wilderness orientated than the previous Skill Monkey.The Guardian of Balance by Benny89
Eberron-themed Mark-of-Sentinel V.Human Druid/Arcana Cleric. A tiny dip and some racial feats stack a massive amount of useful abilities onto and already impressive controller/caster/melee Cleric.The Underwater Basket Weaver by ftafp
Half-Sea-Elf Alchemist with Thief and Conjuror dips. The epitome of the "lethal joke character" that starts out weird and confusing, then blossoms into something truly terrifying.Lung Wang by ftafp
Kobold Artificer/Wizard - the New Pun-Pun that stacks spells and buffs to buy Legendary items by rolling 1+ on a d20.The Cheese Grater by Skylivedk
Aarakocra (or alternatives) Hexblade/Moon Druid that _Hex_es the opponent and then drags them repeatedly through a patch of Spike Growth.Grapple Bard: My Shield is Here For You by PancakeMaster80
V.Human Lore Bard/Hexblade that grapples you in close and then minces you with a bunch of persistent AoE effects.The Platinum-Tongued Diplomat by Legospasm
The basic chassis for a highly charismatic diplomancer, that gets expanded upon in different directions with the next two builds.All-In Persuasion by Legospasm
Diplomat chassis with added Samurai, turning your persuasion check into only slightly less than brain-washing.Guardian Angel/Party Pleaser by Legospasm
Diplomat build, but with added Aasimar/Devotion Paladin for more practical uses outside of the ballroom.The Lord Marshall by Citadel97501
V.Human Fighter/Conquest Paladin to control the battlefield with Fear and then reap the enemy as they flee before you.The Naked Dragon by jojoskull
Half-Elf Draconic Sorcerer who needs absolutely nothing but their own wits and inherent powers - no possessions, no components, no problems!The Arcane Blade by Bendking
"The Ultimate Arcane Trickster", pushing the Rogue class to the edge with a hefty dose of Bladesinger to amplify every feature.The Holy Avenger by Bendking
Optimised Vengeance/Divine Soul 'Sorcadin' that makes the most of its divine power both martially and magically.The Holy Protector by Bendking
V.Human Divine Soul Sorcerer with a tiny touch of Life Cleric to make a tanky melee-caster/healer.Heroforge 2 models of Eclectic Builds by Draz74
Not a build, but Draz74 shows off some Hero Forge imaginings of their favourite eclectic builds!The Alien Ant Farm by ftafp
A living hive of metallic ants that combines Swarm Ranger and Forge Cleric to specialise in persistent AoE damage.The Hecatoncheires by ftafp
Did you know that there's no upper limit as to how many arms an Astral Monk can project? ftafp did, and then he made them bigger with Rune Knight for an immense, multi-target grappler.The Magnetic Pauldron (AKA: Tech Support) by ftafp
Kobold Artillerist who stands on the shoulders of giants - or, at least, the other party members - and protects them from incoming harm, like a miniature living turret.Illiquar the Tentacular by ftafp
Simic Hybrid Whisper Bard, masquerading as a brain-eating Mind Flayer who wants nothing better than to grapple a wizard and have them over for... dinner.Kermit the Slaad by ftafp
Grung Barbarian/Samurai who twins their natural Poison with their Natural Weapons to double down on extra damage and conditions with every attack.The Level 14 Aristocrat by ftafp
An NPC Noble build inspired by everyone's favourite Lord of the Sapphire Guard.The Crystal-Covered Crusher by Draz74
Hobgoblin Psi Warrior who dips into Artificer to bump their AC and also become truly SAD by getting the most out of their towering INT.The Hobgoblin Steel Sorcerer by Bendking
Tanky Clockwork Soul Sorcerer, keeping pace with the Iron Wizard through generous abuse of the Wall of Force spell.The Rune Knight Bully by Mitchellnotes
Dwarf Rune Knight, taking advantage of your Large size to add extra threatened squares to the Polearm master's already impressive repertoire. The Psychic Master by Bendking
An expert in mind-manipulation and disguise, through the power of Aberrant Mind Sorcerer.The Trunk Tank by Sol0botmate
Loxodon Rune Knight, self-buffing from Life Cleric to exploit a huge range of reactions and bonus actions.The Heavy Artillerist by ftafp
Warforged Artillarist/Graviturgist (from Wildemount) combining magic with technology to turn the turret into a doubly-fearsome weapon of AoE damage and suppression.Bob the Builder by Zaile
Dwarf Artisan NPC who is always happy to help a Player Character who needs something built or made, whatever they need.The Überflumph by ftafp
Flumph sidekick that handily out-classes some lower-tier subclass options.The Aberrant Mind Sorlock: A Renaissance Man by borg286
Yuan-Ti Aberrant Mind Sorcerer/Hexblade who can rejig their spells at a moment's notice to take on any party role they want.Smoll Panzer Smith by Sol0botmate
Kobold Battlesmith who builds his own allies to gain constant _pack tactics_ bonuses, then stacking every bit of extra damage you can find to bring down the toughest of opponents.The Necessary Evil by carrdrivesyou
The creepiest Elven Priest ever; A Grave Cleric that escorts souls into the afterlife by employing their skills as an Assassin to make sure that they get dead in the first place....A Peaceful Summoner by Hael
Goblin Shepherd Druid/Peace Cleric. Bring your own huge party of allies to the fight and then keep them truckin' no matter what the enemy throws at you.Cloud Kill by Sol0botmate
Elven Arcane Trickster that not only strikes from the shadows, but also brings the Darkness with them to ensure that the enemy never sees them coming.Misty Holystabber by Sol0botmate
Fight dirty for a noble cause, with a Goblin Vengeance (or Ancients) Paladin with a splash of Sorcerer to cover their Nimble Escape and prepare for another strike.The "Road Rash" Wrestler by Wraith
A _Tasha's_-compliant update to the Cheese Grater, making use of a Tabaxi Rune Knight and a selection of dips to rack up a potentially ridiculous number of d4's in damage.The KRAKEN! by Sol0botmate
Tentacle-y, grapple-y build from a Simic Hybrid Glory Paladin who picks up choice buffs from Sorcerer to make it even more effective.The Scorpion by Wildstag
GET OVER HERE! An Elven Sea Sorcerer (UA)/Eldritch Knight getting maximum action efficiency by pulling targets in with Thorn Whip and then beating them down with War Magic.The Soloist by Jon talks a lot
A warrior of many talents, designed to cover all the bases for a solo PC game. Rogue, Fighter, Monk and Paladin? Oh my!The Umbral Messiah by ftafp
A cleric so edgy, that you'll cut yourself. Half-Drow Peace Cleric for buffed and protected animated zombies, and then Ancients Paladin buffs them further to keep them fighting and taking damage in your place.Ambulatory Tank by LumenPlacinum
Grung Battlesmith that rides within their Steel Defender like a reverse-submarine. They add their Poison to Arcane Trickster/Booming Blade to be incredibly tough while dealing an impressive amount of damage in the process.The War Princess: Master of Malicious Minionmancy by ftafp
Ever wanted to play a Disney Princess and drown your opponents in a tidal wave of cutesy minions? Genie Warlock provides the magic, and Creation Bard provides the bodies.The Fire Marshal by ftafp
Human Wildfire Druid with a splash of War Wizard showing off how a supposedly-nerfed blaster subclass can be turned into an impressive counter-and-control with the power of readied actions.The Sanguine Bastion by Rerem115
Tanky War Wizard - thanks to Dwarven aptitude for heavy armour - who sucks the life out of everything with constant Vampiric Touch that has been turbo-charged with a dip into Life Cleric.The Whisperer in the Dark by ftafp
A silent Goblin horror who looms out of the shadows as a Gloomstalker and uses Aberrant Mind powers to slay without a word.Thundering Cleric by Lumen Placidum
(UA) Variant Human Polearm Master that uses Cleric/Sorcerer to force enemies away with boosted Thunderclaps, only to punish them for daring to step forward again.The Counterer of Spells by Jon talks a lot
Stout Halfling Wild Magic Sorcerer that counters enemy spells with barely a glance - assuming that they're able to cast anything in the first place.Everyone's Best Friend by Evaar
Halfling Genie Tomelock who combines charisma and magic to make sure that they always get their own way and provides allies with multiple neat tricks outside of combat.Literally Luke Skywalker by Renduaz
V.Human of many classes that... y'know what, I'll just let you guess what this one does.The Oxymoronic Meat-Grinder by Wraith
Duergar Dwarf that combines the size of a Rune Knight, as well as their innate magic, with the skill of a Hunter Ranger to single-handedly mow through a whole army in one swing.The Wagoneer by ftafp
A different take on the Artificer and Creation Bard combination, this time one who builds high-tech magic-gadgets. Less Disney, more Arifureta.The D6 Piercer by Rihno
Half Orc Barbarian/Swashbuckler/Champion who stacks Savage-, Sneak- and Orcish Futy attacks to throw out a fist full of d6's in damage.Soulknife Generalist by LumenPlacidum
Tabaxi Soul Knife/Rune Knight/Fey Wanderer; Picking up as many skill proficiencies as possible and using Psychic Blades to be as self-sufficient in as many areas as possible even with equipment.Arcane Knight by Rihno
Tanky Mark of the Storm Elf who uses _Fog Cloud_ to disorientate enemies, then gets in amongst them with Battle Smith/Champion to hit them hard.The Farfire Visionary by Renduaz
You have a selection of 'nature' Races and a choice of other spellcaster classes around a core of Wildfire Druid to temporarily gain unlimited spellcasting range.The Hunter in the Dark by Droppeddead
Sniping from - and into - the dark as a Scout/Gloom Stalker. Lots of Skill Monkey-ing for extra usefulness.Korg the Push by Houster
Minotaur Battemaster/Swarm Keeper who controls the battlefield by physically shoving enemies about with her horns, ready to charge them down for extra damage in the next round.The Eye of Annihilation by Wraith
V.Human Rune Knight/Divine Soul who super-sizes the range of their spells by casting while Huge sized.

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## diplomancer

> This is a really intriguing idea for a support build, using zombies for extra reactions and having them benefit from your ability to pump saving throws, and use saving throws to resist death from smaller attacks.  Has decent healing, and EB/Darkness/B-F/Curse or Cha-based smiting for damage options to round out its support kit.  Thanks for submitting this!  
> 
> I notice the build ends at level 15 -- I'm curious how you'd finish it out.


The build looks very good, but AC is fairly low; maybe start with Paladin 1 (or 2 for smites?) Then, at least once you get your Steed, you could switch to Heavy Armor without worrying about the movement penalty (and you could already be wearing Chain Mail before that for reasonable AC)

----------


## LudicSavant

@ftafp




> The build looks very good, but AC is fairly low; maybe start with Paladin 1 (or 2 for smites?) Then, at least once you get your Steed, you could switch to Heavy Armor without worrying about the movement penalty (and you could already be wearing Chain Mail before that for reasonable AC)


Suggestion: You can improve the build's AC by fixing the starting stats.  They should be able to start with 13/14/12/9/14/16 instead of 13/12/12/8/14/16.  I think ftafp is accidentally using the stat mods for a Drow rather than his listed race (Half-Drow).




> Had a go while it was quiet at work, I hope I haven't mistaken anyone's theme/intention by too great of a margin...
> 
> *snip*


Thanks for doing this!

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## Merudo

> Alright, so this one is gonna be a bit of a rip-off.
> 
> *Hobgoblin Steel Sorcerer*
> 
> 
> 
> TCE's ASI rules make Hobgoblin a good pick for Sorcerers now, and the Clockwork Soul gets access to both Armor of Agathys and Bastion of Law which lets him get more use out of his AoA.
> On top of that, he gets access to an _insane_ spell list and the ever-powerful (busted) Wall of Force. This is meaningful because (opinion alert), access to Wall of Force usually puts Wizards above Sorcerers in power level, but this Sorcerer lets us remain on par for a few more levels against a Wizard in our party (until they get access to shenanigans like Contingency, Simulacrum, and so on). Overall, this is one hell of a tanky caster, with some great Metamagic shenanigans thrown in to support the tank playstyle like Careful Hypnotic Pattern, Quickened Vampiric Touch, and more.
> 
> ...


1. I would not take Bless with Fey Touched at level 8 - by then you have better stuff to concentrate on. I would personally recommend either Dissonant Whispers or Command to generate opportunity attacks for cheap.

2. Vampiric Touch + Quicken is awfully inefficient. You are spending a level 3 slot, your concentration, and dumping tons of points into Quicken for an average of 5hp healed per turn - and that's when you manage to land a hit.

3. Careful Sickening Radiance doesn't work - you might be thinking of Sculpted Sickening Radiance, from the Evoker Wizard.

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## OBoyd

> *The Umbral Messiah*
> 
> 
> [I]Well, as luck would have it, we have a spell for that in Animate Dead, letting you animate zombies with 22 hp and  undead fortitude, making them fairly reusable. These zombies can be kept safely within 30 feet of you at all times by stashing them in a bag of holding. Once there they can use their own reactions to sacrifice themselves for you or your allies.remember that your Emboldening Bond will apply the zombie's undead fortitude saving throw, meaning they have a better shot at surviving and tanking another blow


Since it is an extradimensional space the inside of the Bag of Holding wouldn't be within 30' unless you have a very forgiving DM.

Even without that little truck this looks like s great build.

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## ftafp

> Since it is an extradimensional space the inside of the Bag of Holding wouldn't be within 30' unless you have a very forgiving DM.


where do the rules say that?

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## Citadel97501

Has anyone looked at a combination of Djinn: Warlock 6 (any of them) & the Artillerist: Artificer 14.  I was thinking that this would give you a powerful and very fun build using a wide variety of different attacks, with a lot of flight and other cool utility tricks.

*Heaven's Commando*
Race: Protector Aasimar
Feats: Spell Sniper, ASI's x 2 both to Intelligence, Crossbow Expert
Classes: Genie Warlock, Artillerist Artificer
Pact: Pact of the Tome or Talisman depending on party.  
Spell Storing Item: Scorching Ray or Shatter depending on module and party.

*Pro's:*
Accuracy: Ignoring Cover issues, Melee Range disadvantage, while basically always using your Intelligence to attack is great.
High Damage: 1d8+proficiency+level per turn added to any of your spell attacks...
Flight: 10 minutes per proficiency bonus per Long Rest, and the 1 minute flight available through Aasimar.
Tough: Good AC, and OK hit points.
Elemental Resistance: Fire, Ice, or Bludgeoning seem to be best.
Skill Support: Pact of the Talisman is great, as is Pact of the Tome for utility rituals.
Short Rest Slots: Always having a spell slot for a turret, seems very handy to me.
Spell Storing Item: 30 x Scorching Ray shots per day + Turret, so 4 attacks per turn without issue.

*Con's:*
Really expensive on Actions: Turrets, and Aasimar transformation both cost actions.
No Double Turrets
No Half Cover Turrets

*Discussion Points I see coming up:*
Is flight and elemental resistance worth giving up for double turrets, and the half cover turrets.  This seems to be a very important distinction that determine if this deep dip into warlock is warranted.  I believe it is, but it really is party and DM dependent.  If you choose to avoid that deep dip, I would suggest Warlock only up to 2.

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## Wildstag

Just a note on the Scorpion build description, but Lightning Lure really doesn't work with it because it's a fixed-range save-based spell. It already pulls people in to melee range. The saving throw makes it ineligible for a range increase through Spell Sniper and to get the Distant Spell metamagic, you'd need 3 levels in Sorcerer.

The reason I used Thorn Whip in the build is solely because the build came out of optimizing the cantrip, as it is my favorite cantrip (and probably spell, tbh). 

P.S. Also it doesn't even really need a build if using Lightning Lure; you can just go base EK and make it work without MC or feats.

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## kaervaak

> Has anyone looked at a combination of Djinn: Warlock 6 (any of them) & the Artillerist: Artificer 14.  I was thinking that this would give you a powerful and very fun build using a wide variety of different attacks, with a lot of flight and other cool utility tricks.
> 
> *Heaven's Commando*
> Race: Protector Aasimar
> Feats: Spell Sniper, ASI's x 2 both to Intelligence, Crossbow Expert
> Classes: Genie Warlock, Artillerist Artificer
> Pact: Pact of the Tome or Talisman depending on party.  
> Spell Storing Item: Scorching Ray or Shatter depending on module and party.
> 
> ...


Frankly, I think this would be better with just a 1 (or 2) level dip in warlock. You get bonus damage to your cantrip, a short rest spell slot to rearm your cannon, and minimal delay to your artificer progression. If you want resistance to 1 damage type, you can just infuse resistant armor. For flight you have winged boots.

Madrid seems like a good choice here for fog cloud which pairs extremely well with tiny servant and animate objects shenanigans at higher levels.

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## Wraith

> Thorn Whip


Fixed. Evidently I was thinking "Sea Sorcerer" and immediately jumped to "It must be the Lightning-damage spell, because Sea Sorcerers do stuff with Lightning damage".

----------


## LumenPlacidum

*Ambulatory Tank*
Grung Battle Smith / Arcane Trickster

Grungs are an interesting race, although not a technically powerful one. They have a pretty potent offensive ability that peters off in usefulness at higher levels as Constitution saving throws become better and better. Still, while this will never win awards for being uber-powerful, it is certainly an _eclectic_ build.

The build loses a lot of efficacy if you can't use the Tasha's rules for swapping ability scores from race.
Point-Buy Stats: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 8
With Racial mods: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 8

*Spoiler: The pre-concept levels*
Show


*You start life as an Artificer*, with an okay Dexterity bonus. That means that you are going to be best-served by picking up a crossbow and going with your +4 to-hit and 1d8+2 damage. But wait! You are a grung, and a crossbow is a piercing weapon! So, _as part of any attack_ with your crossbow, you get to rub it against your skin and deliver a 2d4 poison damage poison with the attack (Con save DC 12 negates this). The saving throw and complete lack of scaling limit the efficacy of this in higher levels, but at level 1, this is going to add quite a bit to your damage (except against undead or something). When facing a goblin, a typical level 1 foe, you'll have a 50% chance of hitting, and they have a 45% chance of saving against the poison. This makes your light crossbow do an average of 4.85 damage. This doesn't look that sexy, but it's actually pretty solid from a non-heavy-weapon character at level 1. You could do Booming Blade with a rapier instead, if you're willing to risk close combat with your AC of 16 and 11 HP. The Booming Blade would do the same damage on average, with the possibility of the booming damage being added. Hard to figure out an expected value for the enemy behavior, though. Your big battle spell is probably Faerie Fire. Against a target where you have advantage on the attack, your expected damage to the goblin jumps up to 7.38. This is quite respectable damage at level 1!  Out of combat, you're an artificer, with Guidance and a pile of tool proficiencies. Your race makes you auto-proficient in Perception, which is excellent.

At level 2, you become significantly more difficult to kill. *You just took a level of Artificer again*, and you just got a Repeating Crossbow and a magical +1 Shield as a result! This brings your AC up to a very respectable 19, and your pretty-high Constitution is putting your HP up to an average of 16.5. At this point, you're probably one of the tankiest characters in the group! Don't get too used to this. Your defense will be good throughout your career, but not the best. The Repeating infusion lets you use a shield with your crossbow. The damage type is still piercing, despite the fact that you are mechanomagically producing ammunition within the weapon itself, so you can still apply your poison as part of the attack. A goblin is still a pretty likely foe at this level, so let's keep it for damage-prediction necessities. Your chance of hitting has jumped up to 55% thanks to the +1 magical bonus on your weapon, and the goblin still has only a 45% chance to save against the poison. All told, your expected damage for attacking that goblin is now 5.86. With advantage, this jumps to 8.61.


*Spoiler: Levels 3 through 6*
Show

*At level 3, you take a third level of Artificer* and you get your subclass: The Battle Smith! This is a pretty big level, since you are about to become tougher, more damaging, more flexible, and _faster_. The plan is to build a Steel Defender in a bipedal shape, with a "saddle" built-in, which is really just an open-to-the-air tank of water. The shape of the Defender is up to you, and I recommend that you give it some arms and hands, so that it can manipulate items. It's none-too-smart, but that's okay. You are going to ride the Steel Defender, sitting pretty in your own personal mobile water tank. You should probably switch over to using a melee weapon at this point, since you're still probably the tankiest person in the party. This is especially true now that the Steel Defender, who is _always_ within 5 feet, can use its reaction to apply disadvantage when someone attacks you. Additionally, you can cast Shield with your meager collection of 3 level 1 spell slots. But, against a tough foe, the combination of a _shield_ed AC of 24 and disadvantage on the attack means that you are probably not going to suffer lots of damage. If the enemies choose to attack your mobile oppression Defender instead of you, then _great!_ You can just rebuild it at the cost of a spell slot or a rest. Besides, with 20 HP and 17 AC (you got it a shield, too -- it isn't making attack rolls with strength or dexterity, so it doesn't hurt there, and IT doesn't cast spells), it's no slouch in terms of defense itself. The reason you got more damaging is because now you get to use your better Intelligence bonus on attacks with your magical Rapier (from another infusion). Probably you have defeated the goblins, and you might be off to fight tougher foes at this point. Let's say... Orcs. Your bog-standard orc has lower AC than the goblins you used to fight, but a much higher Constitution save. You have a +6 to-hit, giving you a 70% chance to hit, and the orcs have a 60% chance to save against your poison. You're going to switch over to Booming Blade most of the time, and the orcs are going to want to stop attacking you for the sole reason that _they can't hit you_. Against these orcs, you have an expected damage of 7.58 with the chance of the booming energy adding on top of that. However! If you're in combat already, you can also let your Steel Defender be an uncontrolled mount. It obeys your verbal commands anyway, so why bother trying to control it with leg-squeezes and such? Spend your bonus action to have it move where you want and attack. It has a +5 to-hit, and adds another 4.45 damage to your turn. Without any Concentration spells up, you're doing 12.03 damage per turn, which is great! Throwing Faerie Fire on orcs is less effective than on harder-to-hit foes, but boosts your damage to 15.92.

You could grab level 4 in Artificer now, but I think it's time to grab some more widespread bonuses by *taking a level of Rogue*. This grabs you Expertise, another skill, and Sneak Attack (which will be very easy to get with your Steel Defender around). You can withstand the delay to your ability score improvement because of the +1 granted from your magical weapons. Sneak Attack boosts your damage by a little. Let's assume that you've graduated from Orcs to Duergar. It wouldn't be fair to continue to compare against poison-susceptible creatures. So, we move on to a poison-resistant one. You still have a +6 to-hit, and the duergar have a good armor class and solid Constitution, giving you a 55% chance to hit, and they have a 55% chance to save against poison (which they're resistant to in any case). You are hitting them with Booming Blade with a rapier, automatically getting Sneak Attack if you hit, and we'll still calculate the (rather minimal) poison damage contribution from your race. This all comes together to give you an expected damage of 10.75. This is lower than last level because a duergar is a hardier target than an orc! However, compare this against a barbarian who also has solid defense who's fighting that orc. Probably they're also attacking with +6 to-hit and advantage and dealing 1d12+6 damage when they do. They have an expected damage of 10.6. Of course, you can also give yourself advantage with Faerie Fire, boosting your expected damage to 16.07, which beats the barbarian handily.

At level 5, you'll be facing stiffer competition from that barbarian, since they're getting Extra Attack, and you aren't. *You're taking another level of Rogue*, which gives you Cunning Action. Also, because you're level 5 now, your Booming Blade graduates to the next level of awesome. If you spend your bonus action commanding your Steel Defender to attack, then you're going to be doing 14.55 expected damage against that duergar. If you spend your bonus action Hiding to give yourself advantage on your attack, then you'll get 15.08 damage. The reason things swing in favor of advantage is that you're getting a bunch more _dice_ of damage than you had before. Don't forget that, if the duergar moves, they eat another 2d8 damage from the booming thingie. Heck, go ahead and move in and out of combat. Your AC of 19 and the disadvantage to attack you (from Steel Defender) means that you only have a 9% chance of being hit. Of course, if you're willing to spend a slot on Faerie Fire, then you get _both_ the advantage on attack and the ability to tell your Defender to attack with you! This comes out to a much happier 21.92 average damage. This is now better than the barbarian, even with the barbarian getting two swings.

With level 6, you _still_ haven't had an ASI, because *you're taking a third level of Rogue*, and picking up the Arcane Trickster subclass. Arcane Trickster is going to let you be less hampered when you're sitting comfortably in your mobile tank, because now you don't even have to get out to USE those skills that you've been picking up. You can just do everything from inside the tank with Mage Hand! You'll grab some other utility cantrips, like Shape Water and Mold Earth, for all the reasons why those are amazing. Did I mention that you're carrying around a _tank of water_ everywhere you go? There are a lot of good options for the use of Shape Water here, and not the least of which is the ability to simply seal yourself away from the annoying bickering of your party by just sealing the hatch that you used to get into the tank with an ice plug. It's ok, you can still communicate if you want to. You have that level 1 Artificer ability that lets you touch something and have it play back your own voice. Just have a piton sit there through the ice and let it be your speaker system. The third level of rogue gives you better sneak attack, which is good. At this point, you've started to fight wave after wave of poison-immune ogre zombies. Oh no! You no longer get your poison damage. Might as well still apply it to your strikes. It costs you _nothing to do so_. So, when you _do_ fight something that can be affected, at least you won't miss out because you lost faith in that option. Ogre Zombies are a soft target AC-wise, which is going to make advantage do relatively little. So, you mostly opt to attack with your Steel Defender. You have a whopping 95% chance to hit, and the Defender is at 90%. So, you throw down with Booming Blade, doing 26.78 expected damage as a team. Advantage boosts this to 29.37. The Sharpshooter Fighter is, now, in his element against a low-AC foe. In fact, he's _beating you_ in terms of damage. But, not by as much as you'd expect. See, he's hitting an expected damage per attack action of 31.9. However, you are every bit his equal and more in terms of defense, and you're far more mobile and versatile.


*Spoiler: Concept achieved, now advance! Levels 7-12*
Show


Now that you're level 7, you have some hard decisions. Either a level of Artificer or a level of Rogue would give you an ASI, which is good because we've literally gone as long as it's possible to go in two classes without one. Since the features of either class are pretty much identical at this level, we should make our plan based on what we want _in the bigger picture_. Ultimately, what you want is the ability to cast _Haste_ and to use that to get multiple Sneak Attacks using readied actions. There are two ways to get that. One, you could up to level 14 in Rogue, when Arcane Trickster will let you select the spell from the wizard list. This would net you a lot of stuff, like Magical Ambush (excellent), Versatile Trickster (less good since Steady Aim became a thing), Reliable Talent (good), more Expertise (good), Evasion (okay), Uncanny Dodge (excellent), an extra 5d6 Sneak Attack, and _three_ ASIs. But... I just described taking _eleven more levels_ in Rogue. That's practically a whole build right there. Or, you could take Artificer up to level 9, which would net you more infusion choices, extra infusions, Extra Attack (normally excellent, but only okay here), Arcane Jolt (mini-smite!), Tool Expertise (okay), Flash of Genius (excellent!), and two ASIs. That's for _six_ more levels. I'm going to recommend that. We're going to take the next six levels, from level 7 to level 12, in Artificer. If you know that your campaign isn't going to get to Tier 3 or Tier 4, then you probably want to just go Rogue the rest of the way. After all, there's little point in getting Haste to leverage Sneak Attack... and not have Sneak Attack to leverage!

Level 7 gets you an ASI *from Artificer*. This would be an excellent place to take a feat. You have the attack and damage bonus of a character who has maxed out their main stat thanks to the magical bonus, so getting an INT of 20 isn't _that_ big of a deal. You are a combatant and a caster, and that means Concentration is a thing. You could support that with one of the avenues available (although just waiting until you can get advantage with one of your Infusions is perfectly reasonable). Personally, I think the in-combat stuff is already pretty solid. I would opt to go with Ritual Caster (Wizard). This grants you the ability to gain some excellent rituals for overall coverage of handy tools. And, essentially, what this character does is have a solid presence in combat while at the same time being Batman, and having a tool that can be applied to practically any situation. You might point out that none of the class things or rituals provide the mobility that is commonly a way around many obstacles, and that's true. However, you'd be surprised at what you can clear with the grung racial 25 ft longjump and 15 ft highjump when combined with the Artificer's any-day access to the Jump spell! Starting to collect rituals before Tier 3 makes it so that you'll actually have access to some of the high level ritual spells when they become available level-wise. You get a Familiar this way (on top of your Steel Defender and Homunculus), if you should want one. Unseen servant has a lot of utility regarding being able to be an assistant for your mage hands, carrying equipment and providing a push/pull weight of 60 pounds, which is higher than Mage Hand's 10 pound capacity. You also can get Leomund's Tiny Hut, which is always great, and Augury and Divination, which are both nice to have. Nothing about your combat ability changed at level 7 except that you can now upcast your spells and you have more spell slots.

At level 8, *when you take a level in Artificer*, you get Extra Attack from the Battle Smith subclass. You are attacking with a +8 to-hit and your Steel Defender is attacking at +7. Here, you have a choice to make most rounds: Booming Blade or Extra Attack? From here, I'm going to assume that the foe you face has an AC of 18 with saving throws equal to our own Proficiency bonus. I'd say you actually have more options than that, even; each is listed with the expected damage:

Cast Booming Blade and use your Bonus action to command your Steel Defender to attack? 17.43 expected damage plus potential booming blade damage from movement
Take the Attack action and use your Bonus action to command your Steel Defender to attack? 23.34 expected damage
Use your Bonus action to Hide or use Steady Aim to provide advantage and then cast Booming Blade? 19.90 expected damage plus potential booming blade damage from movement
Use your Bonus action to Hide or use Steady Aim to provide advantage and then use the Attack action? 22.86 expected damage
Use Booming Blade when you have advantage from some other source, with Bonus action for Steel Defender (i.e. maybe Faerie Fire)? 25.97 expected damage
Use Extra Attack and Steel Defender while you have advantage from some other source? 33.30 expected damage

That's pretty indicative that you should be using Extra Attack. This is going to hold true at least until Booming Blade upgrades at level 11. It is also interesting to point out just how marginal your Steel Defender is at providing you with damage at this level. This is a pretty solid indication that you could drop back to the back lines and go back to using ranged options, while using your bonus action to support the Attack action that you take.

At level 9, *you take your sixth level in Artificer*, which gives you access to more and different infusions, as well as expertise when using a tool with which you're proficient. Of these, the Repelling Shield seems like a good upgrade for your Enhanced Defense shield. A proficiency bump increases your damage expectation from 23.34 to 24.96.

Level 10, which is level 7 in Artificer, grants you the Flash of Genius ability, which is a superb ability that should probably be reserved for saving throws. It's not as good as the Paladin's aura because this is limited use and requires a reaction, but that doesn't stop it from being a superb support ability!

Level 11 gets you another ASI from Artificer. Given that you now have Flash of Genius, and that you're starting to have difficulty hitting typical enemies, it's probably time to boost your Intelligence by 2 up to its maximum. This is also the level at which Booming Blade becomes a big deal again. In fact, all of this comes together to phase out the importance of your Steel Defender's attack completely! You can expect to do almost 14% by spending your bonus action on providing advantage for your Booming Blade cantrip as opposed to having your Steel Defender attack with you. At this point, you have 3rd level spell slots, but no actual third level spells to use. Still, upcasting Aid is a good party buff, and helps to make your Steel Defender retain its relevance and ability to help defend you. Longstrider becomes a party buff when cast at a higher level, which most people in the party will appreciate. So, don't think that you won't be able to spend those slots effectively!

We stop taking Artificer levels for a while at level 12, ending with Artificer 9 / Rogue 3. We now have access to the 3rd level Artificer spells, and that includes the amazing Haste effect. Haste is especially awesome for a rogue because you get to apply those Sneak Attack dice in an off-turn attack. Not only that, but as a level 9 Battle Smith, we get Arcane Jolt. Arcane Jolt is a very welcome addition of some force damage dice on hits. This is something we should wait to apply when we roll a critical hit! All told, a character portrait at this point is that we have +10 to-hit, we typically cast Booming Blade whenever we can, dealing (1d8+6 piercing plus 2d8 thunder plus 2d4 poison (Con DC 12 negates)) with an additional possibility of 3d8 more thunder damage if the target moves. We have +2d6 Sneak attack, and we have five uses of +2d6 force damage "smite" per long rest. We have half-plate at least at this point, which we are going to start infusing with the Mind-Sharpener infusion. We have +7 on our Constitution saves for concentration, and we get 4 charges to turn a failure into a success. With our +1 Rapier and a Repelling Shield, and with Haste up, we're sitting on 22 AC. Our Steel Defender can impose disadvantage to an attack every round against us, and we can even _shield_ some near-hits into misses. We should almost never lose concentration on Haste! We get to use a haste-granted Attack action on our turn to attack with that rapier, dealing our AC 18 target an expected damage of 38.5 per round. More than 3x your level is really very solid damage, and when it's sitting on a chassis that is as durable as this (average of 98.5 hitpoints with Aid) and as versatile as this (mage hand shenanigans, ritual caster, artificer tool stuff, expertise in some stuff, utility cantrips), you have the picture of a very well-rounded character, mechanically.



*Spoiler: The Roguinating - Levels 13 through 20*
Show


At this point, the rest of your career is Arcane Trickster. We start off strong with an ASI. We have almost everything we could want stats-wise, but we're starting to really value our ability to cast Booming Blade and move away. So, I think the Mobility feat is a good plan. When we're moving around on our own, we have a speed of 45 feet with longstrider, which gets doubled to 90 feet because of Haste! It's probably time for us to hatch from our Steel Defender water tank "egg". Level 13 provides a +1 proficiency bump, which brings your damage up to 39.19 per round.

At level 14 (Rogue 5), we get Uncanny Dodge (the perfect tool for those pesky critical hits that get through all our other defenses to challenge concentration). This also gives us level 2 Wizard spells from which to select an option. Mirror Image is the obvious choice, just to make us even more difficult to pin down and hit. The extra d6 of sneak attack boosts our offense to 46.22.

Level 15 (Rogue 6) gives us some more Expertises to pass around.

Level 16 (Rogue 7) gives us another d6 of sneak attack, as well as Evasion. Evasion isn't that big of a deal. However, the die boosts our offense to 52.37!

Level 17 (Rogue 8) is another Feat for us (probably Lucky!). This lets us be pretty aggressive at getting super-advantage when we need it. All we need do is _close our eyes_ and listen for Obi-Wan to say "Let go! Trust your instinct!" Then, you get to roll 3 dice for any particular attack roll and pick which one you want! My general goal with a damaging build is to ensure that I can get past 50 damage expected sustainably round after round. And, since we did that last level, everything from here is gravy. However, Booming Blade just went up...

Level 18 (Rogue 9) gives us another die of sneak attack and Magical Ambush! Now we can debuff very well! Although, it does come online pretty late...

Levels 19 (ASI/feat) and level 20 (Reliable Talent) are good, but just cherries on top.

At level 20, this character is at +12 to-hit. In a hasted round, it uses bonus action for advantage on the haste-attack. Then, in the off-round, it closes its eyes and uses Lucky for triple advantage and Booming Blade. It has +6d6 Sneak attack, and uses Arcane Jolt for +2d6 for crits. Its poison damage still has some relevance and is still included in the calculation!
Expected damage per round? 85.32 per round. You've got not as many skills as a rogue/bard, but you're very reliable with the ones you have. You have utility spells out the wazoo!

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## ftafp

*The War Princess: Master of Malicious Minionmancy*
*Race:* Human, Mark of Handling
*Class:* Genie Warlock (Dao) 2/Creation Bard 18
*Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, (13+1) Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, (15+2) Cha
*Asi:* Fey Touched (Cha +1, Gift of Alacrity)@6, Cha [email protected], Resilient (Con +1)@14, [email protected]
*Invocations:* Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast
*Spells of Note:* Eldritch Blast, Magic Stone, Dissonant Whispers, Conjure Animals, Glyph of Warding, Tiny Servants, Conjure Woodland Beings, Summon Greater Demon, Animate Objects, Awaken, Planar Binding, Heroes' Feast

_Ever wanted to play a Disney Princess? Me neither, but when I accidentally mixed a bunch of minionmancy techniques together with some glyph of warding abuse this popped out. It's like the Powerpuff Girls if Professor Utonium started with the Chemical X and poured in the little girl mix by mistake_

*Spoiler: Levels 1-5:*
Show

Let's start as Jasmine. Tier 1 is the most boring section of this build. For now you're a Bard but with Eldritch Blast to make up for your normally lousy offense. Magic Stone may seem an odd choice (though it will be your go-to cantrip at level 1), but fittingly for a disney princess build this is going to be your first example of "it's a surprise tool that will help us later". Same thing goes for bottled respite


*Spoiler: Levels 6-11:*
Show

Tier 2 is where things start to get interesting. When we hit level 7 we get access to our first big minionmancy spell that will let us go Snow White on people's asses: Conjure Animals from the Mark of Handling spell list. If your DM doesn't allow Mark of Handling, you can also ask to switch to Lore Bard temporarily and get it at 8 with Magical Secrets. If you do take Tiny Servant as your other spell for your Belle impression. Three of them can be given standing orders to throw the rocks you touch at enemies at the start of your day. That will give you a use for your bonus action that will net you 3 free ranged attacks. If not, at level 8 you get Animating Performance, letting you animate a large carpet to fly over the battle.
Your other 3rd level spell goodie is Glyph of Warding. I don't think Luz counts as a disney princess but this spell will be a big deal for you as the inside of your Bottled Respite is an extradimensional space meaning no matter where you bring it the inside isn't technically moving. That makes your lamp a perfect place to store spells, though it can be pricy so don't get carried away.

Level 11 will give us more minionmancy with Animate Objects and Awaken. If your DM gimped Conjure Animals then Animate Objects will make up for it. Tiny is usually best, but if your enemy is resistant or immune to nonmagic attacks you can instead use Small or larger objects and have them fly over the enemy then fall out of the air. The falling damage rules from Tasha's get around most resistance by virtue of not being attacks. Awaken is another surprise tool.


*Spoiler: Levels 12-17:*
Show

Tier 3 is where you see a big leap in power. You're going to want to switch into Creation Bard if you weren't already. You get magical secrets at this level so you can just re-take the spells from before. Otherwise, take Conjure Woodland beings and Summon Greater Demon. We're now veering into Disney Queen territory which is an entirely different can of worms but I digress. Conjure Woodland beings has more uses than I can name here, and Summon Greater Demon is another surprise tool. For now let my draw your attention to why we need to be College of Creation now an that reason is that your Performance of Creation can now make something worth 200gp. That includes the material components for Glyph of Warding, and unlike similar abilities and spells there's nothing preventing you from using your creations as material components, meaning you can now make spell glyphs every night

Things only get better at 16 when your animating performance no longer has a maximum cost. Now you can use it to cast Heroes' Feast, Awaken, and Planar Binding for free. You also get multiple items per use so you'll get a lot of milage out of this. The first two spells are good exactly what they sound like: lavish feasts and animated tree servants (just like the queen from Snow White, we really are in Disney Queen territory), but Planar Binding requires special mention because it requires both the binding and the summoning spell to be stored in glyphs of warding to use it correctly as you can't concentrate on Summon Greater Demon when casting it, and if you just put the Planar Binding in a spell Glyph you'll have to concentrate on Summon Greater Demon for the rest of the binding's duration (WotC didn't think this spell through). Dybbuks are the best demons to bind as they can possess any humanoid corpse and immediately assume their stats regardless of CR. This means now you're also a master necromancer


*Spoiler: Levels 18-20:*
Show

Tier 4 is where the rules of the game start to break down, and I have nothing much left to say on this matter. I hope you enjoyed this build and I hope the next one will be even better.

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## abar22

Ludic, I've been in a play by post game for almost two years where the Arcana Cleric was at lower levels. We recently had a story arc circumstance that brought all the characters to level 10. In the first, large scale fight we've had, against 20ish guards/militia, I've been able to tank hits, green flame guys, booming blade guys, hit em with my guardians and spiritual weapon, counterspell, and drop an insect plague on 8 guards with my staff. Over 400 damage in 3 rounds on top of the tank and counterspell utility. It's an amazing build, thanks for bringing it into this world.

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## Hairfish

Yeah, I ran it at lower levels with a less than optimal race (Tabaxi, though I did get a lot of mileage out of the racial double move) and it was still pretty great.

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## ftafp

*The Fire Marshal*
*Race:* Human, Mark of Sentinel
*Class:* Wildfire Druid 7 / War Wizard 2
*Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, (12+1) Con, 13 Int, (15+2) Wis, 10 Cha
*ASI:* Fey Touched (Dissonant Whispers, +1 Wis)@4, Resilient (+1 Con)@10, +2 [email protected], [email protected]

_After the release of TCE, many saw wildfire druid as a blaster nerfed into oblivion. This is true, but not the whole truth. With a little bit of strategy, a wildfire druid can control and counter better than any general
_

Let's take a look at your arsenal. At level 1 you can cast shield once per day and have thorn whip for control. At 2 you gain access to the Wildfire Spirit. Many have noted that the spirit's Fiery Teleportation ability is already seriously useful for moving allies around and blasting foes, but as an optimizer I need to inform you that if you're ordering your spirit to use that ability on your turn, you're doing things wrong

What you should be doing is ordering your spirit to ready an action, and only activate that ability when an enemy targets it or your allies with something nasty, allowing you and your allies to teleport out of harms way. In other words, it's an at-will shield and counterspell at level 2 that doesn't use your reaction, and deals a small amount of aoe damage as well. Your spirit is small so it can ride an ally if you want but don't forget that it has a fly speed.

At level 5 you get counterspell from the Mark of Sentinel spell list, giving you more negation power, as well as plant growth for locking enemies in place and conjure animals for summoning an army of 8 velociraptors. Dissonant Whispers will see to it that those feisty therapods get a mess of opportunity attacks, and at level 6 you gain the ability to cast thorn whip from your spirit's place. Remember how I told you to remember your spirit's fly speed? Well now it can fly over your enemies before you cast it, dealing 1d6 fall damage and knocking targets prone, allowing your velociraptors to go to town. Level 7 is when you get a big-name AoE spell in Wall of Fire. Your spirit is immune to this so it can flit in and out of a wall, protecting your allies with its reaction and dragging enemies back into the fire by just being in the right place. You also get Conjure Woodland Beings, Polymorph and plenty of other great spells

Your wizard levels are the last part of this build I really want to show off. The War wizard dip will add Shield and Arcane Deflection which will give you negation ability every turn. Remember that Arcane Deflection works on concentration saves. As almost all of your best leveled spells are concentration spells that only need one casting having to stick to cantrips until the end of your next turn will be a small price to pay

*Variants:*
*Wildfire Druid 20:* the default. At the cost of some powerful reactions of your own, you can get your higher level spells on time. However, Druids get their best spells at level 7 most of which upcast spectacularly, and their higher level spells tend to be utilities with large price tags you can only expect to cast once per campaign. In my mind, having defensive options ever battle is worth the stunted progression*Divine Sorcerer 1:* Replacing your Wizard levels with DSS at level 1 will give you most of the important features of war wizard as well as Con save proficiency and bless. This means you can skip Resilient, switch your racial +1 to Cha (along with your starting Int score), and you'll be able to function fairly decently at level 1, provided you rely on Mind Sliver as your cantrip of choice to offset your subpar charisma. However, bear in mind that your negation abilities aren't going to be more limited than the War Wizard's,*Peace Cleric 1:* Emboldening bond is a fantastic ability, and may be well worth the dip even in addtion to your wizard levels. In addition you get Bless, which is always nice to have*Twilight Cleric 2:* Twilight Sanctuary grants an extra layer to your protections. It costing an action to set up might be a small downside on other builds, but because of how valuable your bonus action is, it may actually be better this way.

----------


## OBoyd

> where do the rules say that?


The official ruling1 from Sage Advice Compendium

Are extradimensional spaces, such as a demiplane or the space created by rope trick, considered to be on a different plane of existence?

An extradimensional space (aka an extraplanar space) is outside other planes. Therefore, if youre on the Material Plane and your foe is in an extradimensional space, the two of you arent on the same plane of existence.

The unofficial tweet from the rules designer Jeremy Crawford

If two people are on different planes of existence, they are infinitely far away from each other. For example, if I'm on the Material Plane and you're on the Ethereal Plane, we're not within 30 feet of each other.

Because you are in an extradimensional space, you and your familiar is not on the same plane of existence. Therefore, you are infinitely far away from each other. The find familiar spell says that

While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses.

Because you're not 'within 100 feet' - you're infinitely far away by being in different plane - you cannot communicate with it telepathically and see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears2.

1 It is an official ruling how to interpret the rules as they were designed to be. However, it is only a ruling. The DM has the final say and can choose whether to use the official ruling or not.

2 'Additionally' can mean that the ability to use your familiar senses is a separate ability from the ability to communicate with your familiar, which is restricted to 100 ft. However, both abilities are within one paragraph, so 'additionally' must mean that the first ability restriction applies to the second.

----------


## SleepThief

If I might ask @LudicSavant, I'm not sure how to search if someone's already asked this, but if you were going to play the Celestial Generalist from level 1 how would you progress them up to 12? I'm playing a slight variant of it as a feral tiefling, as my DM lets us take a feat at lvl 1 to kinda nerf variant human in his games.

----------


## LudicSavant

> If I might ask @LudicSavant, I'm not sure how to search if someone's already asked this, but if you were going to play the Celestial Generalist from level 1 how would you progress them up to 12? I'm playing a slight variant of it as a feral tiefling, as my DM lets us take a feat at lvl 1 to kinda nerf variant human in his games.


Get the armor first, then the rest in whichever order your prefer (I like Cha before Warcaster usually, unless you're expecting to be the main frontliner).  Get Book of Ancient Secrets ASAP.  Get Agonizing/Repelling Blast, then Maddening Hex.  Utility cantrips can be taken early or late depending on your playstyle / campaign / priorities (damage vs utility).

Direct damage spells should be swapped out as you progress as a Warlock.  For example, Shatter is useful early, but has little place on your list once you know Synaptic Static.

----------


## 1Pirate

> If I might ask @LudicSavant, I'm not sure how to search if someone's already asked this, but if you were going to play the Celestial Generalist from level 1 how would you progress them up to 12? I'm playing a slight variant of it as a feral tiefling, as my DM lets us take a feat at lvl 1 to kinda nerf variant human in his games.


Well, Im not Ludic, but I played this build from 1-11th level and have extensive experience simping for it on the forum. 

As stated, youll want Moderately Armored as your level 1 feat. Your 4th level feat is going to depend on how your DM handles V, S component rules. My DM enforced them so I needed Warcaster before I could use V, S spells with a shield and a weapon(remember even if your weapon is your focus, that only works with V, S, M spells). If your DM doesnt care, then Id take +2 Cha.

How you progress is actually pretty campaign dependent(but one of the strengths of the build is just how damn flexible it is). Mine was a heavy Underdark dungeon crawl, so I needed Devils Sight above all else and I wound up holding off on the Hex based Invocations until later. Find Familiar put in a lot of work, so dropping Agonizing blast for Book of Ancient secrets at 3 wasnt a big deal. 

Party composition also matters. If youre not frontlining, Armor of Agathys is a little underwhelming. If theres another party member with access to an ongoing area damage effect like Spike Growth or Moonbeam, Repelling Blast is going to be more useful than Agonizing Blast. 

My most often used (leveled) spells were(in no particular order): Thunderstep, Cure Wounds, Counterspell, Find Familiar, Hellish Rebuke, Synaptic Static, and Hypnotic Pattern(honorable mention to Sickening Radiance, which only got used 3 times, but absolutely wrecked the encounters). Hex mightve been more useful but my DM ruled I always had to have it on a creature and couldnt switch until the creature died. I worked around this by swapping to my familiar between combats, but I had to get it killed to switch it for the next encounter, so its use dropped off and I never took the Hex invocations.

Hands down, Guidance was the most useful cantrip, particularly with the familiar, since the Rogue could stow it in his pack/perch on his shoulder and then take it out if he needed to make another skill check while still in telepathy range. The combat cantrips were next, with EB as range, and GFB as melee(went nice with Radiant Soul). Light saw a lot of use as well because of the familiar being able to create distractions with it.

----------


## Hairfish

> *The Fire Marshal*


I like this. Trying to think of a way to combine this w/ Echo Knight instead of War Wizard and come up with a real battlefield terror.

----------


## ftafp

> I like this. Trying to think of a way to combine this w/ Echo Knight instead of War Wizard and come up with a real battlefield terror.


Thank you. With regards to echo knight, what are you trying to get out of it specifically?

----------


## Citadel97501

I assume he is intending to use the shadow clone abilities of the Echo-knight for another square that he can do most of his abilities from, I think it would work well but not being able to use Thorn Whip from the echo-location (pun not intended) would be slightly disappointing.  Polearm Mastery might also be interesting as you could use your wildfire spirit to cast from, while continually stabbing anyone that gets near any of the three.

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## ftafp

> I assume he is intending to use the shadow clone abilities of the Echo-knight for another square that he can do most of his abilities from, I think it would work well but not being able to use Thorn Whip from the echo-location (pun not intended) would be slightly disappointing.  Polearm Mastery might also be interesting as you could use your wildfire spirit to cast from, while continually stabbing anyone that gets near any of the three.


Your echo wouldn't really be able to do any of the things you do in combat. You're a spellcaster. Your spells are being cast from you or your wildfire spirit, they don't work with echo knight. you can teleport with echo knight, but that takes your bonus action and this entire build is predicate on using your bonus action to order your spirit to ready an action to negate enemy attacks (which expires at the end of its next turn). Polearm Master is a bad idea for the same reason

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## Hairfish

> Thank you. With regards to echo knight, what are you trying to get out of it specifically?


Not really sure. I'm just toying with the idea that there's some way to combine a creature you can cast through and an object you can attack through, both of which can fly and don't require your action or bonus action to move (and you can summon them both on the same turn, if you're cool with not doing anything else or using Action Surge).

I suppose you could drag an enemy to your echo with Thorn Whip, then keep them there with the Sentinel feat, but that seems lackluster given that you could just move the echo. Or opportunity attack with Crusher/Slasher if their normal move is 30' and you're whipping them diagonally into the air.

----------


## Wraith

You may be better off with a Pact of the Chain Warlock rather than Echo Knight, to be honest. The Familiar acts independently for movement but can attack/be used to cast spells through using a combination of your own Full Action and their Reaction, so if you give it a standing instruction to "always move towards the nearest enemy" or something then it leaves your Bonus free to command the Wildfire Spirit.

Pick up Hellish Rebuke and/or Counterspell and/or a feat like Sentinel, Mage Slayer or Polearm Master as a way to give you a consistent Reaction, you're pretty economic with your turn:

Full action: Cast a spell/attack via Familiar.
Bonus action: Order spirit.
Reaction: Cast a spell/reaction attack.

Mage Slayer might be especially good if you want to combine it with your original plan to use Thorn Whip. Target enemy spellcasters, drag them towards you, then you can react when they try to do anything about it while your familiar/spirit are off doing other stuff around the battlefield.

If you wanted to remain more martial than take two spellcaster classes then Eldritch Knight would work too, or you could just stay pure Druid and pick up the Magic Initiate feat for Find Familiar. Pact of the Chain gives you some better options for creatures to pick from though, especially if you want flying ones.

----------


## Dalinar

Hey folks,

Love this thread and Bendking's as well. Wanted to pick your brains about something.

Basically, I have a combo kicking around in the back of my head: Vampiric Touch + Life Domain Cleric 1 for a heavy-armored caster that sustains itself via melee life draining. 

So here's the first problem: there aren't a lot of ways to get Vampiric Touch. To my knowledge: Wizards and warlocks can learn it, Bards can get it via magical secrets, and a couple of cleric domains get it (but Life isn't one of those).

I have a couple thoughts on ways to go about this:

1. Necromancy Wizard for even more sustain on a kill. This would be great in a situation where surrounded by many weak creatures where you can just reliably kill one a turn. Problem is your base HP is low, so you're liable to get one-shot in a harder encounter.
2. Abjuration Wizard for tankiness, similar to the Hobgoblin build seen elsewhere in this thread. Problem is that a lot of your effective HP is in the form of Arcane Ward, which you want to be casting Abjuration spells to restore rather than VT.
3. Warlock. Problem with any Warlock is the lack of spell slots--so getting knocked out of concentration is way more punishing.
4. Sorcerer. Quickened VT is nice. Downside is you don't get VT until later, and have to multiclass *again* to do so (probably into Warlock).
5. Lore Bard. Problem is there are straight up way too many things you want to spend those secrets on--might as well just grab Fireball, for instance.
6. War Wizard. This seems like the most viable, as Arcane Deflection works well with VT by my reading (since you only need to cast it once, right?), and eventually Durable Magic as well. I don't see many people mess with War Wizard, though, so I might be overestimating its practicality.

The second problem is that, while this is a really cool fantasy, I don't see a way to make even this boosted VT compete with other really strong options (not to mention it requires concentration). Just seems easier to chuck a Fireball at the problem rather than wade in and slowly drain a pack of critters, or Hold Person the BBEG and let the martials take care of 'em. But y'all are smarter and more experienced than me. What do you think?

End goal is to make a character that is hard to kill, not necessarily because of high effective HP, AC, or saves (though those things are great), but because they can restore their own health while damaging you at the same time.

----------


## Corran

> Hey folks,
> 
> Love this thread and Bendking's as well. Wanted to pick your brains about something.
> 
> Basically, I have a combo kicking around in the back of my head: Vampiric Touch + Life Domain Cleric 1 for a heavy-armored caster that sustains itself via melee life draining.


Did you consider a death domain cleric? Vampiric touch is not a great spell, but it sucks less for death clerics if that's an option for you (they are not a default option for one). One level of wizard is not bad at all on a cleric (especially if you roll above average), and a 2nd level for a specialization (necromnacy in your case) wouldn't be terrible to justify. Grim reaper does not work great with single target spells, but it does boost vampiric touch, so that's a little more synergy you can squeeze out given you want to commit enough on VT.

----------


## Dalinar

> Did you consider a death domain cleric? Vampiric touch is not a great spell, but it sucks less for death clerics if that's an option for you (they are not a default option for one). One level of wizard is not bad at all on a cleric (especially if you roll above average), and a 2nd level for a specialization (necromnacy in your case) wouldn't be terrible to justify. Grim reaper does not work great with single target spells, but it does boost vampiric touch, so that's a little more synergy you can squeeze out given you want to commit enough on VT.


I hadn't really considered it because I was focused on the Life synergy too much, but you are right, that would make it far easier to get. And if nothing else, the way I read it you can squeeze a bit more damage out with Death's Channel Divinity, since VT is technically a melee attack.

Grave Cleric also gets it, if our hypothetical DM doesn't allow the DMG subclasses. I don't see all that much synergy there, though. 

I'm not entirely sold on Vampiric Touch itself, either, if there's a better way to accomplish a "life drain tank" sort of style. It's just the only spell I'm aware of that does what it does. (I mean, if you squint really hard, grabbing a Divine Soul Sorcerer, reflavoring it, then casting an attack spell and a heal on the same turn sort of has the same result?)

----------


## ftafp

> Hey folks,
> 
> Love this thread and Bendking's as well. Wanted to pick your brains about something.
> 
> Basically, I have a combo kicking around in the back of my head: Vampiric Touch + Life Domain Cleric 1 for a heavy-armored caster that sustains itself via melee life draining. 
> 
> So here's the first problem: there aren't a lot of ways to get Vampiric Touch. To my knowledge: Wizards and warlocks can learn it, Bards can get it via magical secrets, and a couple of cleric domains get it (but Life isn't one of those).
> 
> I have a couple thoughts on ways to go about this:
> ...


As a note, sorcerers no longer need to multiclass to get vampiric touch, as it was added to their spell list in Tasha's. Sorcerers are also probably a better class to use for a vampiric touch build, both because of the quickened spells and because of the con save proficiency.

That said, you're going to be hard pressed to find a self-regenerating build stronger than a twilight cleric or shepherd druid with a dip in twilight or life. Both cases are fully capable of maintaining battlefield control and DPS in combat while constantly regenerating or supplementing not just their own health, but that of their allies as well.

----------


## Dalinar

> As a note, sorcerers no longer need to multiclass to get vampiric touch, as it was added to their spell list in Tasha's. Sorcerers are also probably a better class to use for a vampiric touch build, both because of the quickened spells and because of the con save proficiency.
> 
> That said, you're going to be hard pressed to find a self-regenerating build stronger than a twilight cleric or shepherd druid with a dip in twilight or life. Both cases are fully capable of maintaining battlefield control and DPS in combat while constantly regenerating or supplementing not just their own health, but that of their allies as well.


Can't believe I missed that. 

And thanks for pointing me in that direction! If I come up with a particularly interesting build that does that, I'll try posting it in here for feedback. Twilight/Shepherd in particular sounds like a brutal combo. Hmmmmmmm...

----------


## Rerem115

> Hey folks,
> 
> Love this thread and Bendking's as well. Wanted to pick your brains about something.
> 
> Basically, I have a combo kicking around in the back of my head: Vampiric Touch + Life Domain Cleric 1 for a heavy-armored caster that sustains itself via melee life draining.


Ask, and ye shall receive.


The Sanguine Bastion

*Race:* Mountain Dwarf
*Class:* Life Cleric 1/War Wizard 19
*Stats:* 8 Str, 10 Dex, (15+2) Con, (15+2) Int, 13 Wis, 10 Cha
*Asi:* Fey Touched (Int +1, Gift of Alacrity) at 5th level, then Resilient: Con, Warcaster, and +2 Int in any order afterwards.  The last ASI can be whatever you want, but +2 Con or Tough match the theme the best.
*Spells of Note:* Vampiric Touch is a must, but for all intents and purposes, you are a Wizard, with all the magical goodies that entails.

Clad in steel and armed with dread arcana, this wizard does not shun the front lines, but rather actively seeks them.  Starting as a Life Cleric grants them Heavy Armor and Shields (which can be worn despite 8 Str because you're a Dwarf) as well as Wisdom and Charisma saves.  Naturally high Intelligence rounds out their mental saves, while Absorb Elements, Shield, and a sturdy Constitution means that they aren't overly vulnerable to more physical assaults.  And, because War Wizards add Intelligence to Initiative, you shouldn't be stuck at the end of the turn order.

From your position, you can stave off and deal death in equal amounts.  An extra 3+ HP on every healing spell is appreciated, and with Arcane Recovery, you can turn rests into health better than most dedicated Clerics.  Meanwhile, Vampiric Touch siphons the life from your foes, letting you stand between your weaker party members and the enemy for longer-and is also enhanced by Disciple of Life.

If you want control, you've got it.  If you want healing, you've got it.  If you want AoE, you've got it.  If you want utility, there's probably a spell for it, too.  But, what you have more than anything else is _staying power_.  22 AC with no magic items, so long as you're concentrating on a spell, which you can raise to a 24 at will, or a 27 with Shield.  Your saves are good, and even with Wizard hit dice, so is your HP-which you also regenerate.  Your nova and sustained damage isn't great, but you're not about that; it's better to let your team handle that while you hold foes in place and whittle away with Deflecting Shroud and Vampiric Touch.

----------


## Quietus

> Hey folks,
> 
> Love this thread and Bendking's as well. Wanted to pick your brains about something.
> 
> Basically, I have a combo kicking around in the back of my head: Vampiric Touch + Life Domain Cleric 1 for a heavy-armored caster that sustains itself via melee life draining. 
> 
> So here's the first problem: there aren't a lot of ways to get Vampiric Touch. To my knowledge: Wizards and warlocks can learn it, Bards can get it via magical secrets, and a couple of cleric domains get it (but Life isn't one of those).
> 
> I have a couple thoughts on ways to go about this:
> ...





> Did you consider a death domain cleric? Vampiric touch is not a great spell, but it sucks less for death clerics if that's an option for you (they are not a default option for one). One level of wizard is not bad at all on a cleric (especially if you roll above average), and a 2nd level for a specialization (necromnacy in your case) wouldn't be terrible to justify. Grim reaper does not work great with single target spells, but it does boost vampiric touch, so that's a little more synergy you can squeeze out given you want to commit enough on VT.



This is something I've been playing around with, myself.  I haven't found a way to make Vampiric Touch viable as a go-to tactic, it's just too low damage, but I have been considering a Fallen Aasimar Death Cleric.  At higher levels, consider taking the Metamagic Adept feat, to add Quicken 1/day.  When you feel Vampiric Touch is the appropriate way to go, you lead off combat with your transformation (apply control aspects), then either cast Vampiric Touch the following round, or if you picked up the feat, Quicken it for a first-round fear+VT.

Fallen Aasimar and Death cleric are both chosen, to enhance necrotic damage.  With your transformation, you add level=necrotic damage once per turn to a target you hit with an attack or spell.  With the Death Cleric channel divinity, you add another 5+2x level.  The build (as it is) truly comes online at level 6, when you ignore necrotic resistance, can channel divinity twice per SR, and have acccess to your transformation.  Doing all of this means that you can cast Vampiric Touch, apply your Aasimar transformation damage AND your Touch of Death channel divinity, to do 3d6+23 (33 average) necrotic damage, and heal half of that back.  This total goes up by 3 per level, if you continue single-classed Cleric.  And on any combat where you aren't siphoning souls, you're still a single classed cleric.  

For extra damage/heal effects, include Life Transference.   Deal 4d8 non-reducable damage to yourself, and heal a target for double that.  Then use your soul siphon combo to heal yourself.

----------


## LumenPlacidum

Fallen Aasimar
Sorcerer to 5 to grab vampiric touch. Take Draconic Bloodline, and go with either fire damage or cold damage.

Take 1 level of Warlock with the Genie patron to add your proficiency bonus as either fire or cold damage once per turn when you hit with an attack. Splash in 3 levels of Fighter for Battlemaster, and take the Feinting Attack maneuver.

Finish your career as a Sorcerer.

Activate racial scariness.
Cast Vampiric Touch.
Every turn, you make an attack with Vampiric Touch, which gets your Genie's Wrath bonus added to it, meaning that you're dealing fire or cold damage with an attack. Whenever this happens, Elemental Affinity kicks in and adds your Charisma bonus to the damage. You can use Feinting attack when you want to to gain advantage on the attack, and to get an extra d8 damage on it. The racial scariness will add your level to one damage thing you make a turn.

Level 6, with 18 Cha - Vampiric Touch is a 3rd level spell. Attack for 3d6 necrotic damage plus 3 fire damage plus 4 fire damage plus 6 damage from race. That's 23.5 damage and half that in healing.

Level 9, with 18 Cha - Vampiric Touch is a 3rd level spell. Attack for 3d6+1d8 necrotic damage with advantage, plus 4 fire damage plus 4 fire damage plus 9 damage from race. That's 32 damage and half that in healing.

Level 13, with 20 Cha - Vampiric Touch is now a 5th level spell. Attack for 5d6+1d8 necrotic damage with advantage, plus 5 fire damage plus 5 fire damage plus 13 damage from race. That's 45 damage and half that in healing.

Level 17, with 20 Cha - Vampiric Touch is now a 7th level spell. Attack for 7d6+1d8 necrotic damage with advantage, plus 6 fire damage plus 5 fire damage plus 17 damage from race. That's 57 damage and half that in healing. That hits my benchmark for doing okay damage.

----------


## Quietus

> Fallen Aasimar
> Sorcerer to 5 to grab vampiric touch. Take Draconic Bloodline, and go with either fire damage or cold damage.
> 
> Take 1 level of Warlock with the Genie patron to add your proficiency bonus as either fire or cold damage once per turn when you hit with an attack. Splash in 3 levels of Fighter for Battlemaster, and take the Feinting Attack maneuver.
> 
> Finish your career as a Sorcerer.
> 
> Activate racial scariness.
> Cast Vampiric Touch.
> ...


This is certainly a way to increase the damage slightly.  However, keep in mind that you only get half the *necrotic* damage in healing.  Comparing the straight death cleric setup I described above, at the same levels, without upcasting Vampiric Touch at all : 

Level 6 : 3d6+23, or 33 necrotic damage.
Level 9 : 3d6+32, or 42 necrotic damage
Level 13 : 3d6+44, or 54 necrotic damage
Level 17 : 3d6+56, or 66 necrotic damage

And doing it this way doesn't involve three-class multiclassing, or anything like that.  This is one combat a day that you can be a soul siphoning monster, and the rest of the day, you're still a full single classed cleric.

----------


## LumenPlacidum

Yeah, Could do some weird Order of Scribes nonsense, but yours is the better plan.

----------


## BenfromMaine

Amazing thread.  Got here by looking for melee cleric builds... starting the Arcana Cleric Frontliner Build #4 tonight.  Jumping in a campaign at level 7.
All things seem straight forward.  Just one question on the "riders".  I am still relatively new to D+D so I may just be missing something but would someone be willing and able to explain the "rider" aspect of this?

_"1) Booming Blade is a lot more dangerous than usual from these guys, because Potent Spellcasting adds your Wisdom on both the melee attack and the rider and because Warcaster means that walking outside of the Cleric's threatened area to go punch someone else triggers the rider and then another Booming Blade and then another rider too. This works out to a significant chunk of damage at any level, especially considering it's not all of your action economy (you've still got your Concentration, your bonus action, and possibly minions)."_


Thanks for all the amazing infos on these great builds.  OP and commenters, much appreciated.

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## x3n0n

> Amazing thread.  Got here by looking for melee cleric builds... starting the Arcana Cleric Frontliner Build #4 tonight.  Jumping in a campaign at level 7.
> All things seem straight forward.  Just one question on the "riders".  I am still relatively new to D+D so I may just be missing something but would someone be willing and able to explain the "rider" aspect of this?
> 
> _"1) Booming Blade is a lot more dangerous than usual from these guys, because Potent Spellcasting adds your Wisdom on both the melee attack and the rider and because Warcaster means that walking outside of the Cleric's threatened area to go punch someone else triggers the rider and then another Booming Blade and then another rider too. This works out to a significant chunk of damage at any level, especially considering it's not all of your action economy (you've still got your Concentration, your bonus action, and possibly minions)."_
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the amazing infos on these great builds.  OP and commenters, much appreciated.


"Rider" is a generic term for "bonus effect in addition to the 'main' effect". In this discussion, they're calling Booming Blade's "rider" the clause about "if they move, they take more thunder damage".

Let's say your Arcana Cleric is level 8, so Booming Blade is 1d8 thunder on the attack, 2d8 on the movement "rider".
So your Cleric hits the enemy for weapon + attack ability mod (like any normal attack) plus 1d8 thunder (Booming Blade) plus Wisdom mod (Potent Spellcasting).
Then the enemy decides to leave, triggering the second part of Booming Blade (the "rider") for 2d8 thunder, plus Wisdom mod for Potent Spellcasting.
In addition, War Caster means you can attempt Booming Blade for them leaving your reach; if you hit them, that's another weapon+mod+1d8+Wismod.
If you did hit them *and* they decide it's still worth leaving, they take another 2d8+Wismod (the second "rider").

(If you're using Shillelagh, then the weapon and attack mod are d8 and Wismod again, respectively.)

It's a lot of damage.

----------


## mjp1050

> Amazing thread.  Got here by looking for melee cleric builds... starting the Arcana Cleric Frontliner Build #4 tonight.  Jumping in a campaign at level 7.
> All things seem straight forward.  Just one question on the "riders".  I am still relatively new to D+D so I may just be missing something but would someone be willing and able to explain the "rider" aspect of this?
> 
> _"1) Booming Blade is a lot more dangerous than usual from these guys, because Potent Spellcasting adds your Wisdom on both the melee attack and the rider and because Warcaster means that walking outside of the Cleric's threatened area to go punch someone else triggers the rider and then another Booming Blade and then another rider too. This works out to a significant chunk of damage at any level, especially considering it's not all of your action economy (you've still got your Concentration, your bonus action, and possibly minions)."_


Welcome to the GitP forums! You will never find a more friendly hive of fun and wizardry. 

'Rider' refers to the bonus effects that happen in addition to the main part of the spell. In the case of Booming Blade, the 'rider' is the extra damage that occurs if the target moves.
So because of Potent Spellcasting, you get to add your Wisdom modifier to the spell's damage twice: once when the spell initially hits, and once more if the target moves.

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## BenfromMaine

*x3n0n
mjp1050*

Thanks!! This makes so much more sense.... I appreciate the quick response, info and the warm welcome.

----------


## Dalinar

So I have something to actually contribute this time! Here's a low-level build that might be a fun gimmick. 

*The Blazing Boa*

Concept: Cast Create Bonfire then grapple people into it. 

Race: *High Elf* (TCOE rules: Str+2/Con+1) or *VHuman* (Str+1/Con+1)
Class: *Rune Knight 1-6* (I'd grab Frost rune for better grappling and Fire/Cloud for more battlefield control)
Stats with point buy: Max Str and Con. Go 13 Wis or Dex for later multiclassing, or spread points elsewhere if you think you'll need certain skills or saves.
Feats: *Magic Initiate if VHuman* (Create Bonfire is gotten by Druid, Sorc, Wiz, and Warlock; more on this later). At level 4, you have a few decent choices: *Skill Expert (Athletics)* is probably the play if you're High Elf (because you'll hit 18 Str with it), while *+2 Str, Lucky, and Shield Master* are all possibilities for VHuman.
Fighting Style: *Unarmed* if going Shield Master; *Archery* if you want a ranged option and are high elf (VHuman can just grab Eldritch Blast or something with Magic Initiate); *Dueling, Defense, or Interception* if going with a one-handed weapon and neither of the above appeal to you.
Equipment: Shield if going Shield Master and Unarmed; Hand Crossbow if going Archery or Interception (the latter doesn't specify a melee weapon); Warhammer or Battleaxe if going Dueling or Interception.

Basic strategy: Create Bonfire on your first round and let the enemies come to you. On subsequent rounds, pick the closest one to the party squishies, grapple it, then drag it into the fire. Also knock it prone with a shove attack to give it disadvantage and your rogue buddy or whoever advantage.

Damage: Not that impressive at first, especially compared to other fighter builds (PAM says hello). Several rounds of setup where you could just be smacking someone. You have Action Surge to speed things along if you feel the need. Hitting level 5 in Rune Knight will double the Create Bonfire DPR as well as let you grapple and shove in the same round, drastically decreasing the setup time before you can simultaneously pummel and burn somebody. (While not technically RAW, I'd argue that someone being grappled and prone in a bonfire can't make their Dex save to avoid the damage, as that doesn't really make sense--but check with your DM.)

Utility: This is where you excel, relatively speaking. You have Create Bonfire, which is useful in all the ways actual fire is. If VHuman, you have another cantrip of your choice (Eldritch Blast, Minor Illusion, Guidance, and Mage Hand seem like good picks) as well as a once-per-long-rest first level spell (depends heavily on your campaign and party what'd be useful here, but includes stuff like Armor of Agathys, Shield, Absorb Elements and plenty more). If High Elf, you have darkvision, free Perception proficiency, and some other small goodies.

You have the passive benefits of your runes: advantage on Animal Handling and Intimidation from Frost Rune, plus pseudo-Expertise from Fire Rune or advantage on Sleight of Hand and Deception from Cloud Rune. You have some of the strongest Athletics you can manage at this level, particularly if you went High Elf (+8 at level 4!). You can redirect an attack with Cloud Rune.

Where to go from here?: Rune Knight grapplers are pretty well known. You can go all the way to 20 without multiclassing if you expect you'll eventually need things like the ability to grapple Gargantuan creatures. Alternatively, what if we did something really stupid in the name of fun? In lieu of Create Bonfire, why don't we use our Concentration on something else, like, say, summoning eight snakes? Enter the Fighter/Druid: grapple somebody, then have your animals do the damage for you. I haven't really thought this one through yet, because I'm not as familiar with Druid, but Wild Shape shenanigans with Moon Druid sounds like great fun: Create Bonfire or Summon stuff and Giant's Might round 1, Wild Shape and grapple round 2, then go nuts. The only other multiclass that strikes me as useful here is Rogue, because you can get free Athletics expertise which frees up a feat plus a bunch of extra Sneak Attack damage once you've established advantage (if you plan on this route, consider reworking your stats for more Dex). Cunning Action comes in handy, and eventually Reliable Talent will make some grapple checks literally unloseable for you.

Open to suggestions.

----------


## ftafp

*The Whisperer in the Dark*

_The Gloomstalker is an unseen horror, the Aberrant Mind a silent death. Together, these two create an undetectable threat. Hold on to your butts, because this will be a crazy one_

*Race:* Goblin
*Class:* Gloomstalker 3/Aberrant Mind X (this is just the split, not the progression like I usually do.)
*Stats:* 8 Str, (14+2) Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis, (15+1) Cha
*ASI:* Cha [email protected], Cha [email protected], Medium Armor [email protected], [email protected]
*Expertise(Canny):* Stealth
*Fighting Style:* Blind Fighting
*Metamagic:* Subtle Spell, Quickened Spell, Twinned Spell, Careful Spell

*Level 1:* Aberrant Mind 1

Level 1 is fun for a sorcerer. Aberrant Mind gives us telepathy and a whole bunch of fantastic extra spells. We also get our standard 2 leveled spells and 4 cantrips. For this build we're going to have a strong preference for spells that lack a verbal component and don't require attack rolls, as both of these give away our position when we're hidden. We're might make a low-level exception for attack roll spells by picking Booming Blade to help us through our ranger levels, but for the rest go for utility. Minor Illusion is a must which we can use to create boxes or barrels to bonus-action hide inside, and Catapult which we can safely use without revealing our position. Shield is a requirement of course, and for the other cantrips I recommend are Mold Earth (just in general) and Control Flames which while normally kind of lame might help us keep our surroundings dark later on.

*Level 2:* Aberrant Mind 1/Ranger 1

At level 2 we make a switch into ranger, giving us medium armor and stealth expertise. This means our stealth bonus will be sitting pretty at +7. Your AC is going to be a bit worse at low levels since stealth is the priority, so grab a shield and go sword-and-board.

*Level 3:* Aberrant Mind 2/Ranger 1

Back to sorcerer to get our sorcery points. Choose some spell you like and ditch Grasp of Hadar if you want. As a goblin we can already disengage as a bonus action, but the damage isn't awful.

*Level 4:* Aberrant Mind 3/Ranger 1

2nd level spells and metamagic. This is a real treat! Subtle Spell will let us remain hiding as we cast spells. I suggest grabbing Web and Mind Whip. Suggestion is a great spell to have as well, but check with your DM before you try giving suggestions via telepathy. Quickened spell means we can hit enemies with Mind Sliver and then subtract the penalty from the following save, but be careful as your SP are not unlimited. Also Pyrotechnics might also be decent to have. Carrying a flame around might seem like a bad idea if we're going gloomstalker, but if you took control flames before you can use it to turn your flames the color of Ethanol flames, which are pretty much invisible and don't illuminate as their flames only give off infrared light

*Level 5:* Aberrant Mind 3/Ranger 2

Level 5 will grant us ranger spells and our fighting style, Blind Fighting. I suggest Fog Cloud if you don't already have pyrotechnics and Absorb Elements for the spells. The former will give you more options to hide in for now but we'll get better options later

*Level 6:* Aberrant Mind 3/Gloom Stalker 3

At level 6 we reach our first big milestone with Gloomstalker. Gloomstalker's Umbral sight is at the crux of this build, so get familiar with invisibility and obscurement rules because you're going to be relying on them.

*Level 7:* Aberrant Mind 4/Gloom Stalker 3

Finally, an ASI! Kick that Cha up a notch

*Level 8:* Aberrant Mind 5/Gloom Stalker 3

3rd level spells time. Counterspell and Hypnotic Pattern are gold here as neither require verbal components, and the latter cant be countered if you cannot be seen

*Level 9:* Aberrant Mind 6/Gloom Stalker 3

Finally, we get Psionic Sorcery. Now we can cast any of our Psionic spells (except mind sliver) silently without using subtle spell. This also means we can stack some quickening on on top and do quite a lot of nasty

*Beyond:* Aberrant Mind X/Gloom Stalker 3

From here on out the meat of the build is cooked. It's up to you as a player to serve it forth and have fun

----------


## LumenPlacidum

*Thundering Cleric*


This build goes outside of the standard books, but is built entirely with WotC-published material, none of which is Unearthed Arcana. It is, therefore, _not_ AL-legal, but is probably something that you can sell your DM on.

*Note* that when I give expected damage, I'm accounting for crits, to-hit, saving throws... all of it. I assume a target with 18 AC and +4 to all saves. This is harsh for early levels, but probably reflects big scary bosses, and is normal for later levels.

*Race.* Variant Human (take the polearm master feat)
*Class.* Sorcerer (any subclass) 14, Cleric (zeal domain) 6 (Sorcerer 1, then Cleric 1, Sorcerer 2-3, Cleric through 6, then Sorcerer the rest of the way)
*Ability Scores.* Str 15+1, Dex 8, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 15+1
*ASIs and Feats.* Cleric 4 (@ level 7) take Warcaster. Sorcerer 4 (@ level 10) +2 Str, Sorcerer 8 (@ level 14) +2 Cha, Sorcerer 12 (@ level 18) +2 Cha

*Level 1* Sorcerer
Make sure to grab Booming Blade and Thunderclap, as well as Shield. Otherwise, take whatever you want.
You do not have great armor class, so it's probably a good idea to hang back and use spells or thrown weapons. You have a +5 to hit with a thrown dagger for 1d4+3, which is actually better damage than a Fire Bolt.

*Level 2* Cleric
Grab the Zeal domain. This grants heavy armor proficiency and proficiency with martial weapons. You can now swing a glaive twice in a turn using the bonus action attack from the domain. You have the Shield spell to support your heavy armor. You are, at this level, doing an expected 7.35 damage with two glaive attacks. That's better than most martials can manage! When you run out of bonus action attacks from the subclass, you can always use the ones from polearm master, although your damage drops to 6 per round.

*Level 3* Cleric
You gain channel divinity, which will let you cast your level 2 Thunderwaves (domain spell) for max damage. This strategy nets you an expected damage for that round of 21.6 for each subject of the Thunderwave.

*Level 4* Sorcerer
This level gives you sorcery points, which will let you get some more higher level slots for blasts or lower level slots for more Shield spells. Little changes tactics-wise

*Level 5* Sorcerer
Be sure to pick up Transmuted Spell and Twin Spell here. At this point, you have 3rd level spell slots and access to second level sorcerer spells. In combat, you are probably still using melee attacks. When you want to, though, at this point you can boost your damage in melee by casting Booming Blade, twinned. You have +6 to hit with your glaive, and remember that you can only cast Booming Blade when 5 feet away! But, with this, you deal an expected 12.7 damage. If you don't want to spend the sorcery point for twinning, you have other options! You can use

*Level 6* Cleric
You can cast Spiritual Weapon now (with a 3rd level spell slot). Keep in mind that since Spiritual Weapon is the leveled spell and is a bonus action spell, you are perfectly free to cast the cantrip Booming Blade _with it_. So, now you are doing a twinned booming blade and spiritual weapon for an average of 17.55 damage. In general, it's worth remembering that casting bonus action leveled spells is perfectly miscible with your main offensive option.

*Level 7* Cleric
With your first ASI/Feat, take Warcaster and switch over to a spear. You'll do a lower die of damage, but now you can cast Booming Blade when people approach you (otherwise, it would have to happen at a reach of 10 feet, where you couldn't use the cantrip). Remember that you cannot twin the opportunity Booming Blades, since Warcaster specifies that it has to target only the one creature that triggered the OA.

*Level 8* Cleric
You now have access to Haste, Fireball, Spirit Guardians, and Spirit Shroud. At this level, I recommend tackling your hard combats as a normal cleric would, with Spirit Guardians. Next level, this becomes just one option out of many. I want to point out that the Channel-Divinity-maximized 4th level Fireball is a marvelous damage option, dealing an average of 37.8 damage per target. Against clustered foes, it is certainly your best option.

*Level 9* Cleric (final level of cleric) - at this point you have all the secret sauce
With level 6, you get the domain feature to make anyone against whom you deal thunder damage get thrown back 10 feet. This is not an action, and passively affects _all_ methods of dealing damage! Now you have some big choices.
Hold Spirit Guardians on Concentration. With your action, use Booming Blade (twinning when you want to). With your bonus action, control a Spiritual Weapon.  This makes it so that you are swinging your weapon against two foes next to you, dealing thunder damage to each. This knocks them back 10 feet. When they move, they take the BB damage and get knocked back another 10 feet. Since the area of Spirit Guardians halves movement for foes (no save), this means that if someone wants to get back to you, they have to move 5 feet to re-enter the Spirit Guardians (taking more damage--but not thunder damage), at which point their speed is halved. If they have 30 feet of normal speed, they're now down to 15 feet and they've already used 5 of that. So, they can only move 10 feet closer to you, and cannot get within 5 foot-reach. If they have at least 40 feet of movement, then they can get back into melee with you, but you can just OA Booming Blade them again, knocking them back another 10 feet and making it so that if they want to get back to you, they'll have to deal with another 20 feet of movement (the other 10 coming from the second rider-effect knockback).Hold Spirit Shroud on Concentration. You are going to select cold damage with Spirit Shroud, and use the Transmute Spell metamagic to change that to thunder damage. Now _all_ of your attacks do additional thunder damage, and you can knock back with all of them! So, on your turn, you could do an Attack action with Spiritual Weapon to get two knockbacks; you could do a twinned booming blade and Spiritual Weapon to get three knockbacks with a potential for 2 more from the BB riders. You could do a regular booming blade and Spiritual weapon to get two knockbacks with the potential for 1 more from the rider. The spiritual weapon attacks can actually knock the same foe _farther_ back, giving you more breathing room against a single foe.Cast _Thunderwave_ for a guaranteed 10 feet of knockback to all affected, and the Con save for _more_ knockback.Cast a transmuted _Fireball_ for knockback in a larger area at a huge range! You can even still maximize it, since you can maximize thunder or fire damage.

It's worth mentioning that if you use Spirit Shroud as a 5th level spell, cast a twinned booming blade, and use Spiritual Weapon (level 2), and then do a regular Booming Blade as an OA when someone re-enters your reach, you are doing a solid 67.2 damage per round if all of those BB riders trigger. You will have forced a total of 70 feet of movement distributed over several targets. You used 1 sorcery point to cast the Spirit Shroud and so you'll only be able to do this twice. But, the answer to that problem is...

*Level 10 and on* Sorcerer
The more sorcerer you take at this point, the more sorcery points you get, which lets you do more twinned booming blades. You'll eventually be able to take Quicken Spell if you want, but I don't fully recommend it. You get an ASI at this level, and I had the original stats set up to be able to go with a mainline Sorcerer at this point.

Variants:
You could do this with pure cleric if you wanted. You'd be giving up the ability to use Spirit Shroud for thunder damage all the time, unless you went with the Metamagic Adept feat for Transmuted Spell.
You could go back to cleric instead of sorcerer after getting the secret sauce. In this case or the above case, then you probably want to downplay your Charisma for higher Wisdom.
You could take Armorer Artificer for Thunder Gauntlets and then you will do thunder damage with your normal attacks. Since these attacks impose disadvantage on everyone else, and the people you hit _cannot reach you_, it's a lot of control. It's probably worth doing at higher levels with any of the variants. One thing that's also really nice about this option is that you can make it so that your attack does a lot of dice of thunder damage. You can cast Thunderous Smite and do Booming Blade (say, at level 11) for 1d8 (thunder gauntlet) plus 2d8 (booming blade) plus 2d6 (thunderous smite) plus 1d8 (divine strike) plus your ability score. *IF* you should happen to crit on this, it's 8d8+4d6 thunder damage, which you can maximize using channel divinity. That's 88 points of damage against a single target.

tl;dr - You can spend your actions with some spell combinations to just keep blowing back anyone who gets within reach and you can prevent them from being able to get close again through movement-reduction if you want. It's a _lot_ of knockback in total, so moving back is also an option.

----------


## Jon talks a lot

The Counterer of Spells


Race: Stout Halfling using Tasha's optional ability score rules
Class: Wild Magic Sorcerer
Ability Scores: 8 STR, 14 DEX, 14+1 CON, 8 INT, 11 WIS, 15+2 CHA
ASI's And Feats: +2 CHA @4, Lucky @8, +1 CHA +1 CON @12, Alert @16, and Mobile @19.

The strategy: The goal of this build is to be able to cast counterspell on any enemy, and, regardless of the spell level you are countering, the counterspell will succeed. 
The way counterspell works is this: If the opponent casts a 3rd or less spell and you reaction cast counterspell, the enemy spell fails. If the spell is higher than 3rd, YOU make an ability check based on your spellcasting ability. The DC is 10+the spells level. 
So, in order to always make this DC, we have many tricks up our sleeve. First, we have the halfling racial trait lucky, so we can never roll a 1 the first time. Then we have the lucky feat for another re-roll. Finally, we have Tides of Chaos to gain advantage on the roll. With these 3 effects, we should be making the DC a very large portion of the time. The reason we have the alert feat is to never be surprised. If we can't be surprised, then we will always be able to cast counterspell during combat, even if its the surprise round. Mobile is there so that enemies will rarely be outside our counterspell range of 60 ft, but if they are, we can easily get to them.

Font of Magic: 
Flexible casting allows us to gain, at most, 4 additional 3rd level spell slots to cast counterspell, and we can always upcast if we are out of sorcery points. 
Metamagic: 
At third level, take distant spell for greater counterspell range and take subtle spell so that we can not be counter spelled ourself. The other meta magics don't really matter all that much to this build. 

Counterspell isn't our only anti caster tech. We have access to many spells that will be effective in shutting down the options of our chosen foe, and I will get into those soon.

Important Spells:
Cantrips: Dancing Lights (You have to see to cast Counterspell)
1st Level: Detect Magic, Sleep (You have to do something before Counterspell comes online), 
2nd Level: Misty Step (Getting in range of casters)
3rd level: Counterspell, Dispel Magic
4th Level: Greater Invisibility (Another option to make sure that your counterspells can't be counterspelled), Dimension Door (Same reason as Misty Step)
5th level: Hold Monster (Stop spells from being cast)
6th level: -
7th level: -
8th level: Dominate Monster
9th level: Wish (duh)

----------


## Dalinar

> The Counterer of Spells


I like this quite a bit. A few suggestions:

1. You've already accounted for Hold Monster and Dominate Monster in your spell list; I'm assuming Hold Person and Dominate Person are implied.

2. The Darkness spell is great at shutting down spells that require vision of the target, as is Blindness/Deafness; obviously there's Silence for spells that require a verbal component, which is also a lot of them. Both are second-level spells, so they won't take up your Counterspell slots. Then again, you have a lot competing for your concentration in this build between those and Hold Person/Monster and Detect Magic. Lastly, consider Enhance Ability to give yourself advantage on Charisma checks, although that's another concentration spell.

3. Consider taking either 2 or 17 levels in Divination Wizard because Portent is OP. Use it to either ace a Counterspell DC or make an enemy caster fail a Hold Person DC. Granted, you lose out on some Font of Magic and may be delayed on other things you want (obviously don't multiclass until you get Counterspell). You do unfortunately have to drop some WIS or DEX or CON to multiclass into Wizard, so it may not be worth it to you. Your call. Personally, I'd almost consider going Div Wizard for this entirely, just because I don't trust Wild Magic to not screw me over at low levels, but if you're truly all-in on Counterspell then I think having both is worth considering.

4. It's an incredibly minor optimization, but +1CHA/+1CON comes before +2CHA if you have an odd CHA and CON score. Enjoy slightly more HP and better CON saves! Also not sure if maxing CHA or taking Lucky is more mathematically impactful to your Counterspelling.

Versus a 15 DC (probably more than you'll have to deal with at levels prior to 8 but let's say your DM is mean), and given advantage from Enhance Ability or Tides of Chaos, you've got a 75% success rate from +4 CHA, 70% from +3 CHA and no Lucky, or 83% from Lucky. If for some reason you're at the 8-11 range and facing a 19 DC because your DM is REALLY mean, you're looking at 49% with a +4, which becomes 66% with Lucky, or 58% with a +5 and no Lucky. I'm also not accounting for the fact that you don't need to spend a luck point if the first two rolls succeed, or that you're more likely to use the luck point if you realize the DC is bigger than you expected, or that you might just have a short adventuring day where Lucky is usually available.

5. I'm not aware of a way for a Bard to add Bardic Inspiration to its own ability checks, or I'd throw that one into your dice manipulation playbook. That said, Glamour Bard 6 gets an ability that, while concentrating, lets it cast Command as a bonus action. Some relevant commands (talk with your DM before using the non-PHB ones): Approach, Choke, Flee, Grovel, Surrender, Vomit, Wait, just off the top of my head. So now you shut down one caster with your bonus action every turn, Counterspell another with your reaction, and still do whatever with your regular action (probably Mind Sliver somebody if I had to guess, so they don't resist your Commands; I'm assuming the rule about not using a leveled spell with your action and bonus action on the same turn still applies). Since you're only really using the extra Sorcerer levels for Font of Magic, this may be worth it to you. 

Unfortunately, Bards don't get Counterspell natively, so you'd either pick it up at Glamour 10 as a Magical Secret and then go Sorc 1, or you'd wait until Sorc 5 then go Glamour 6. Either way, you're losing out on some sorcery points, and either you delay Counterspell or you delay Mantle of Majesty, and you don't learn bigger spells easily. If you want to play this at a table that starts at later levels and you don't mind having more low-level spells and no high-level spells, Glamour 10/Sorc 1 might be the play. 

Note that if you have access to Ravnica backgrounds (specifically Azorius Functionary) or Eberron's Mark of Sentinel Human, you can get Counterspell that way, but you may lose out on Halfling luck so that's another tradeoff. If this is you, and your DM lets you have Azorius Functionary AND Halfling, then you could go Glamour 6/Sorc 1/X and still have all your dice manipulation online by 8.

Thoughts? It seems to me like you've accounted for almost everything you can do without multiclassing, and I can see why you wouldn't wanna do it (more Font of Magic = more Counterspells per long rest), but the other options might be worth considering. I'm also wondering what options you can grab, without reducing your effectiveness at Counterspelling, that would help you versus non-casters.

----------


## Hairfish

Pretty sure Bard's jack of all trades ability counts for the Counterspell ability check, too.

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## Dalinar

> Pretty sure Bard's jack of all trades ability counts for the Counterspell ability check, too.


"Starting at 2nd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn't already include your proficiency bonus."

It reads that way to me as well, now that I look at it. Good catch. Probably still check with the DM, but it does specifically say "ability check" with no indication of being a check that a skill applies to, so I'd argue in favor.

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## Jon talks a lot

1. Yes

2. Darkness is pretty good, but my problem is that you have to see someone to counterspell them. It can still work out, but it seems niche for this particular build.

3. I personally prefer the 2 level dip rather than the 17, but I think Portent Wizard makes another similar build to this one. I agree that portent wizard might be better than this build, but I think that I would have to see it in practice before I could make up my mind. However, I don't think that wild magic surge is that big of a deal, even at lower levels. I mean, you have to roll a 1 on a d20 if your dm even decides to even have wild magic surge happen. It's really unlikely.

4. I definitely need to work on the progression of ASI's.

5. Not unlocking my main strategy until level 10 seems not worth it. However, perhaps a dip for jack of all trades could work out.
The build is just a theory craft, so I'm allowing myself to use any official book (no UA though). That means I probably could take Azorious Functionary as another optimization. That is a very good suggestion for using a bard version of this.

I present: Undying Life

Race: Half-Elf
Classes: Warlock 14, Cleric 2, Druid 4
Subclasses: Undying/Pact of the Tome, Life, Circle of the Moon
Progression: Warlock 1, Cleric 2, Warlock 13, Druid 4
Ability Scores: 10, 8, 14+1, 15+1, 8, 15+2
ASI's: Inspiring Leader @Warlock 4, +1 WIS +1 CHA @Warlock 8, +2 CHA @Warlock 12, Resilient: Con @Druid 4
Eldritch Invocations: Fiendish Vigor, Eldritch Sight, Maks of Many Faces, Book of Ancient Secrets, Devil's Sight, and Minions of Chaos

This build has one goal: Don't die.
To this end, we have many tricks. 
First: Undying Warlock tricks. Defy death and Indestructible life are both healing better than second wind that don't require an action, False Life and Inspiring Leader both give us a great pool of temp hit points, and if we really need to, we can use misty step or dimension door to GTFO of combat. 
Next: We are a life cleric, meaning our healing spells are superb thanks to Disciple of Life, and we now have heavy armor proficiency. 
Finally, we have druid wild shape to effectively have another pool of hit points to draw on, and combat wild shape allows us to expend spell slots for healing as a bonus action. 
To deal damage, we have eldritch blast, as well as Shillelagh, and a bunch of other damaging spells of your choice. 

Out of Combat: We still have a lot of utility, especially since we KNOW 13 CANTRIPS. Additionally, we have a lot of good eldritch invocations to help do fun stuff. Especially eldritch sight and maks of many faces. 

For cantrips, I recommend everything that gives out of combat utility, as well as all the healing cantrips (spare the dying, good berry). Guidance, mending, message, and dancing lights are all very good. 

Other spells: I definitely recommend spells that let us run away really fast. Misty step, dimension door, and maybe spider climb.

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## Dalinar

> I present: Undying Life


I love MAD builds because they're so tricky to optimize. The only outright error I see with this is that you called Goodberry a cantrip. It's a level 1.

That said, I believe you can't stack multiple sources of temporary HP at the same time, so I wouldn't rely on that as a mechanic.

Because of this, I have my doubts about whether it compares in survivability to the Abjurer, Clockwork Soul, and other caster-tank builds floating around. Since you're going for a mostly Warlock tank, have you considered maybe spamming Armor of Agathys along with Heavy Armor Master? You don't have nearly as many spell slots to pull this off with as, say, a Lock 1 / Abjurer 19, but the spell slots you do have are of a decent level, at least. If you can grab some Mithral plate along the way (no Str requirement) and raise your AC and saves as much as you can, then there you go.

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## Jon talks a lot

> I love MAD builds because they're so tricky to optimize. The only outright error I see with this is that you called Goodberry a cantrip. It's a level 1.
> 
> That said, I believe you can't stack multiple sources of temporary HP at the same time, so I wouldn't rely on that as a mechanic.


False life and inspiring leader are my only sources of temp hp. All the other features restore hit points.

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## Dalinar

> False life and inspiring leader are my only sources of temp hp. All the other features restore hit points.


Fair enough. I'd still look into Heavy Armor Master since you have the proficiency for it anyway. Inspiring Leader is 25 HP for you and your party members at 20 and max CHA, once per short or long rest (up to six targets total). Assuming party survivability is your play, that's actually quite a bit depending on party size. If personal survivability is your goal, Heavy Armor Master surpasses that given you're hit nine times with B/P/S damage per short rest (not that unreasonable since most things are doing a lot of attacks by this point). In other words, the longer your adventuring day, the better Heavy Armor Master gets relative to Inspiring Leader, at least for solo survivability versus B/P/S damage. It also frees you up to cast False Life or Armor of Agathys before combat.

As for False Life vs Armor of Agathys (not that you said anything, but I figured I'd elaborate anyway): False Life is d4-1 hit points better than AoA when cast at the same level. Armor of Agathys has that sweet passive damage, though. They're also necromancy vs abjuration, respectively, which matters for some builds (coughs in Arcane Ward) but I don't think matters for yours. So still take False Life unless you value the passive damage.

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## Jon talks a lot

> Fair enough. I'd still look into Heavy Armor Master since you have the proficiency for it anyway. Inspiring Leader is 25 HP for you and your party members at 20 and max CHA, once per short or long rest (up to six targets total). Assuming party survivability is your play, that's actually quite a bit depending on party size. If personal survivability is your goal, Heavy Armor Master surpasses that given you're hit nine times with B/P/S damage per short rest (not that unreasonable since most things are doing a lot of attacks by this point). In other words, the longer your adventuring day, the better Heavy Armor Master gets relative to Inspiring Leader, at least for solo survivability versus B/P/S damage. It also frees you up to cast False Life or Armor of Agathys before combat.


Heavy armor master only matters if I can wear heavy armor. Currently, my strength is sitting at a nice 10. 

I really do appreciate all the feedback on my builds though.

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## Dalinar

> Heavy armor master only matters if I can wear heavy armor. Currently, my strength is sitting at a nice 10. 
> 
> I really do appreciate all the feedback on my builds though.


Oh, duh. You can maybe grab some Mithral armor along the way?

And yeah, no problem. I'm a bit of a Johnny, if you're familiar with the term (google "mtg johnny" otherwise), so threads like these are practically a playground to me. I enjoy seeing the crazy things people can do with the combination of tools available to them in a system like DnD. Especially when the goals aren't necessarily "win every combat encounter" but things like "get proficiency and expertise in as many things as possible," or "mindwipe people with Subtle Modify Memory while also being good at other things," or in your case "counterspell everything" or "stack up HP and healing from as many sources as possible."

:)

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## LumenPlacidum

Any character can wear heavy armor.

Lower strength lowers your speed by 10 ft.

Nonproficiency gives disadvantage on Str/Dex attacks/saves/checks and prevents you from casting spells.

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## 8wGremlin

*To Infinity and beyond...

*Race: any small race
Class: Druid
Subclass: Wildfire
Ability Scores: none relevant
Progression: Druid 2

Your Wildfire companion can appear as any shape you like, it is small sized with a strength of 10, meaning it can carry 150 lbs.
it can also fly and hover at a speed of 30'.

This means at 2nd level a Wildfire small druid, can be picked up and flown around by their companion, reigning down fire as it does so.  Granted you have to use your bonus action to command it, dash is useful, and it moves you. 

But it's fast effective and doesn't really limit you, or your companions actions when you do fight. 

Other things of note, it's intelligent, and can use equipment you provide it. however it does have the limitation on the Actions you can get it to do.

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## Jon talks a lot

> Any character can wear heavy armor.
> 
> Lower strength lowers your speed by 10 ft.
> 
> Nonproficiency gives disadvantage on Str/Dex attacks/saves/checks and prevents you from casting spells.


I am aware. I'm just not sure if the trade-off is worthwhile.




> Oh, duh. You can maybe grab some Mithral armor along the way?
> 
> And yeah, no problem. I'm a bit of a Johnny, if you're familiar with the term (google "mtg johnny" otherwise), so threads like these are practically a playground to me. I enjoy seeing the crazy things people can do with the combination of tools available to them in a system like DnD. Especially when the goals aren't necessarily "win every combat encounter" but things like "get proficiency and expertise in as many things as possible," or "mindwipe people with Subtle Modify Memory while also being good at other things," or in your case "counterspell everything" or "stack up HP and healing from as many sources as possible."
> 
> :)


I'm a bit of a johnny too. I'm a little inexperienced in D&D, only been playing a couple months, but it's fun to make wacky creations. 
If you want to talk about having the most skill proficiencies, I have a bard character sitting on the backburner right now that is proficient in 12 of the 18 skills.


Drink your Way to Valhalla:

(This build uses Tasha's variant racial ability score rules)

Race: Mark of Finding Half-Orc
Class: Cleric 17, Monk 3
Subclass: War Domain, Way of the Drunken Master
Ability Scores: 8 STR, 15+1 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 15+2 WIS, 8 CHA
Progression: Cleric 4, Monk 3, Cleric 13
ASI's: War Caster @Cleric 4, +2 WIS @Cleric 8, +1 WIS +1 DEX @Cleric 12, +2 DEX @Cleric 16

Strategy: We are here to smash face, and drink WAY too much. We wade into battle and smack people around. With an AC of 19 from unarmored defense and a high initiative bonus, we should be able to get the drop on a lot of baddies, and if we do, we can deal a lot of damage. First, we have our racial ability Hunter's Mark, which we should use on the biggest dude. Next, we have flurry of blows, which is the only thing we should be spending Ki on, and as a short rest recharge, its spammable enough with 3 ki to make this worthwhile. War priest gives us another way to bonus action attack if we don't flurry of blows. Guided Strike means if we want to hit, we sure can hit. Divine Strike is more damage, and avatar of battle is insane. On top of all this, we are still a 17th level caster and we have divine intervention.

Here's why this is better than War Domain Cleric 20: We have the same AC (disregarding magic items) as normal, but with far superior manoeuvrability from Drunken Technique and monks +10 Speed. We also have the potential to go nova with Flurry of Blows, and you don't lose any cleric features except for guaranteed divine intervention. That's the only thing you lose to gain so much versatility.

I genuinely think this is far superior to any single classed War Cleric you could make. 

Spells: 
You choose your spells each day, so just choose the best ones I guess? Faerie Fire (From Mark of Finding) is really good, and shouldn't be slept on

Edit: Should I be choosing a different subclass? Way of the Open Hand is real good at level 3, and so is Way of the Kensei. I might do a variant with Way of the Kensei actually.




> *To Infinity and beyond...
> 
> *Race: any small race
> Class: Druid
> Subclass: Wildfire
> Ability Scores: none relevant
> Progression: Druid 2
> 
> Your Wildfire companion can appear as any shape you like, it is small sized with a strength of 10, meaning it can carry 150 lbs.
> ...


I love this.

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## Jon talks a lot

Off to the Races:

Here I am making another super mobile build. I guess I just really love them lol.

(This build uses the UA Rabbitfolk Lineage)

Race: Rabbitfolk
Class: Rogue 13, Warlock 7
Subclass: Scout, Fey Pact of the Tome (or hexblade Pact of the Blade but I find them really boring)
Ability Scores: 8 STR, 15+2 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 8 WIS, 15+1 CHA
Progression: Rogue 4, Warlock 7, Rogue 9
ASI's: +2 DEX @Rogue 4, +1 DEX, +1 CON @Warlock 4, Alert @Rogue 8, Mobile @ Rogue 12
Eldritch Invocations: Devil's Sight (because darkvison), Eldritch Sight (Out of Combat Utility), Mask of Many Faces, Book of Ancient Secrets (Out of Combat Utility)

Strategy: Our job is to run around causing a great deal of chaos, and man are we good at that. 
To the aim of running around: Cunning action (dash), Skirmisher (move half our speed as a reaction), Superior Mobility (+10 movement speed), Rabbit Hop (+d12 jump), and Misty Escape, so if we take damage, we get a 60 ft teleport. On top of that, we are an initiative beast: +16 to initiative rolls AND advantage on those rolls (Alert, 20 DEX, Hare-Trigger, Superior Mobility)
To the aim of causing Chaos: How does 7d6 sneak attack damage sound. How does forcing everyone within 10 ft to make a wisdom saving throw or be charmed or frightened sound. How does giving advantage to all attacks against the first creature you hit in combat sound. Oh, and we have 6 cantrips and 2 spell slots to play with as a 7th level warlock.
Also, we are never taking damage from failing a DEX save thanks to evasion and Lucky Footwork. 

Cantrips: Eldritch blast, Friends, Mage Hand, Dancing Lights, Message, Guidance
Ritual Spells: Identify, Find Familiar
Warlock Spells: Do whatever you think will cause the most chaos

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## RingoBongo

Caliban (a reference to "The Tempest" by none other than William Shakey)

The goal of this build is to keep good monk progression in a monk subclass that can hold it's own (I prefer mercy, I think). Still get that wisdom and dex up to 18 each by level 12 while slapping on extra "spell use" through: 1 level of cleric after extra attack at monk 5 (more later if desired) and racial/feat options that give a sort of spell casting use.

Race: Lotusden halfling
Class: tempest cleric 1+ / way of mercy monk 12+
Ability Scores: 8 STR, 15+2 DEX, 15 CON, 8 INT, 15+1 WIS, 8 CHA
Progression: Monk 5, Cleric 1, Monk 12

ASI's: Aberrant dragonmark (shield + mind sliver or bb) OR crusher (con), +1 dex +1 wis, fey Touched (wisdom + gift of alacrity) OR shadow touched (wisdom + silent Image). Also chef (wisdom or con) is good too, if your feeling fancy. ANYWAY YOU ORDER IT WORKS -- you just want to round out to 18 dex, 16 con, and 18 wisdom by level 12

Strategy: you got your punches, a quarter staff, a short sword, a short bow, and whatever dedicated weapon you want.... The ki can be used for a variety of useful purposes. I'm not going to get into it all but each step of way of mercy subclass is great up to 11... You'll get 18 wisdom eventually and have 4 reaction uses of tempest cleric's wrath of the storm with a decently high dc save -- also higher dc save vs stunning strike and other spells like entangle, thunderwave, bane, toll of the dead, word or radiance

Cantrips: druidcraft, Guidance, toll of the dead, word of radiance, and (if you take aberrant dragonmark -- mind sliver (con) OR booming blade) 

Our first spells only come through our racial ability "children of the woods" -- druidcraft, entangle 1/LR @3, spike growth 1/LR @5. Unless we take a fey Touched, shadow touched, or Aberrant dragonmark at level 4.

And then all the sudden at level 6 we get 2 cleric spells and 3 wrath of storm uses (which is a significant powerboost compared to the 1 ki per level progression)... But we don't want to delay monk for too long; I think pushing monk through mercy's 11 subclass ability and then to 12 for the ASI is a great place to take stock of everything and decide rest of build direction.

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## Dalinar

The Joestar Special
_An exercise in nova damage featuring unarmed attacks. ORAORAORA!_

There's another thread going along right now about dealing as much possible damage with unarmed attacks as possible without taking any Monk levels. This was my solution, as optimized as I could figure out for nova damage. Did my calculations under the assumption that no damage is lost to missed attacks or successful saving throws.

Note that *this requires a DM ruling which is not clear to me based on my Googling,* specifically that Swords Bard's Slashing Flourish is compatible with both unarmed strikes and the critical hit mechanic (I think there's a reasonable enough case for both that I'll assume it for this build, but check with your local DM). If this is not the case, you still go to Bard 3 for Hold Person (or any other class that learns it), and probably 4 for the ASI. You can make up some of the difference with the bonus action attack from War Cleric 1, but that does require you to wait another turn for your setup.

Race: Either Variant Human (better at low levels) or Half-Orc (better once we get Hold Person, depends what order you go in)
Starting stats: 16 STR for damage; 13 CHA, 13 DEX, 13 WIS required for multiclassing. Easily achievable through point buy. Rest to taste. 
Classes at 20: Rune Knight 11/Swords 5/Hexblade 1/Hunter 3
ASI/Feats: Fighting Initiate, Martial Adept, +2STR, +2STR. If Variant Human, you'll have a fifth feat; I couldn't find one relevant to this build, but I'm open to suggestions.

Progression can be done in whatever order, but here's a level by level breakdown:

Fighter 1: Fighting style. You'll pick up Unarmed Fighting or Superior Technique here, grabbing the other whenever you get the Fighting Initiate feat.
Fighter 2: Action Surge. Self-explanatory.
Fighter 3: Rune Knight. You'll pick up Fire Rune here as well as Giant's Might.
Fighter 4: ASI.
Fighter 5: Extra Attack (2).
Fighter 6: ASI.
Fighter 7: Utility unrelated to our goals.
Fighter 8: ASI.
Fighter 9: Indomitable. Unrelated to our goals.
Fighter 10: Giant's Might extra die becomes a d8.
Fighter 11: Extra Attack (3).

Bard 1: Nothing relevant. BI becomes relevant later, and is a d6.
Bard 2: Nothing relevant.
Bard 3: College of Swords. Slashing Flourish lets you roll a BI die and deal the result in damage to your target and a secondary target. Also Hold Person to guarantee critical hits.
Bard 4: ASI.
Bard 5: BI becomes a d8.

Hexblade 1: Shocking no one, we're here for Hexblade's Curse. Extra damage per hit equal to proficiency bonus.

Ranger 1: Nothing relevant.
Ranger 2: Nothing relevant.
Ranger 3: Hunter. Colossus Slayer is better for one target, Horde Breaker is better for two targets.

The Combo: Cast Hold Person until it works. Hexblade's Curse that person. Next turn, pop Giant's Might, walk up to them, Attack three times, Action Surge, Attack three more. (Unfortunately, can't work in stuff like Hunter's Mark or Haste, as Hold Person is way too valuable to use concentration on anything else--though you do know those spells.) Blow all your riders: Giant's Might, Blade Flourish, Fire Rune, and a d6 Battlemaster maneuver of choice on the first hit, and another maneuver on the second hit. All of these are doubled on a crit, as far as I can tell (just like Divine Smite would be*).

---

The final tally? To quote myself:



> First attack: STR + PB (Hexblade's Curse) + 2d8 (Unarmed Fighting Style) + 2d8 (Giant's Might) + 2d8 (Blade Flourish) + 2d6 (first maneuver) + 4d6 (Fire Rune). That's 5 + 6 + 9 + 9 + 9 + 7 + 14 = 59 average damage, a small bump from level 11.
> 
> Second attack: STR + PB + 2d8 + 2d6 (second maneuver), for an average of 5 + 6 + 9 + 7 = 27 average damage, also a small bump from level 11.
> 
> Third attack: STR + PB + 2d8, for an average of 5 + 6 + 9 = 20 average damage.
> 
> Action Surge gives us three more attacks that also average 20 damage apiece.


Add in another 6d8 if you went Half-Orc, as you are critting six times and so deal an extra weapon die of damage per crit. That's an average of 27 damage I didn't account for originally.

Add in 2d8 (Slashing Flourish) and 5+2d8 (Horde Breaker) if you have a secondary target, or just a flat 2d8 (Colossus Slayer) to your second hit if you don't, for an average of 23 and 9 extra damage respectively.

59+27+20+20+20+20+27+23=216 average damage given Half-Orc and two targets. A good bit less with VHuman and one target (I believe 175).

They'll also take 2d6 at the start of their next turn from Fire Rune, but I don't count that as our turn is by definition over at that point.

---

*A note on Divine Smite: it apparently does not work with unarmed strikes per SAC/Jeremy Crawford's rulings. The logic they use is that while an unarmed strike is considered a "melee weapon attack," and thus could trigger a Divine Smite, the text also specifies "the weapon's damage" and unarmed strikes aren't "weapons" so you can't add extra damage to them through Divine Smite. The implications for the Swords Bard part of this build? You can use Blade Flourish, since it also triggers on a "weapon attack," but it also causes "the weapon" to deal the extra damage, and therefore you wouldn't be able to choose any of the available options to deal extra damage. This is clearly not the result the designers intended. To paraphrase Nick Fury, given that that is a... questionable decision, I'm electing to ignore it. Otherwise, you can try Whisper Bard 5 instead of Swords Bard 5, which doesn't contain any "the weapon" language and gives you a 3d6 Psychic Blades rider (which come to think of it is actually stronger than Blade Flourish anyway, but I'd rather not re-do all my math). Failing that, go Bard-of-choice 4 and War Cleric 1 as described in the disclaimer at the top.

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## Jon talks a lot

Here I am with another build: It's like the 8th one in less than 36 hours.

Rave Queen: 

(This build uses Tasha's Optional Ability Score Rules, but can easily be adapted)

Race: Satyr
Class: Bard 19, Warlock 1
Subclass: College of Valor, Hexblade
Ability Scores: 8 STR, 14 DEX, 15+1 CON, 10 WIS, 8 INT, 15+2 CHA
Progression: Bard 6, Warlock 1, Bard 13
ASI's: War Caster or Resilient: CON (I prefer this one) @4, +2 CHA @8, +1 CHA, +1 CON @12, +2 CON @16, Inspiring Leader @19

Strategy: We are the face of the party, as well as the tank. Our nova damage isn't amazing, but we can certainly put on the pain. In a pinch (and pre-combat), we are also decent support as a bard.
In combat, we are a 19th level spellcaster with access to any spell of our choice thanks to magical secrets (choose wish). We have two attacks per turn, and, thanks to Battle Magic, a bonus action attack if we instead choose to cast a spell. Hexblade's curse gives us very nice damage, and Hex Warrior gives us a +5 CHA modifier to attack and damage rolls instead of anything else we might have had. War caster lets us keep concentration while we smack the pants off our enemies. 
This is probably better than a standard no dip College of Valor Bard at level 20, and the best part is, we are actually far less MAD, allowing us to focus on getting our CON up.

Spells: Just do standard valor and hexblade things.

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## Evaar

*Everyone's Best Friend*

Race: Mark of Hospitality Halfling
Class: Genie (Dao) Warlock 14
Starting Stats: 16 Charisma, 13 Constitution, 16 Dexterity
Skills: Deception, Persuasion, Insight, Intimidation
Feats: Chef

This uses the default ability score bumps from Mark of Hospitality.

Cantrips: Prestidigitation (from race), Eldritch Blast, Friends (yes, Friends), Guidance, Resistance, Shape Water (all 3 from Tome, but pick what you like, none of these are critical), Create Bonfire (3rd Warlock cantrip), Mage Hand (4th warlock cantrip, take whatever you like)

Spells: You'll probably start with Goodberry because healing on a short rest spell slots is handy at low levels, but eventually you'll train that out and use -- Aid (from Mark of Hospitality), Hold Person (it upcasts well), Spike Growth (from the Dao), Hypnotic Pattern, Thunder Step, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Tongues (yes, Tongues), Aura of Purity, Sickening Radiance, Synaptic Static, Wall of Stone
Mystic Arcanum 6th level: Mass Suggestion
7th level: Force Cage

Invocations: Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Book of Ancient Secrets, Mask of Many Faces, Gift of the Protectors, Whispers of the Grave

This is primarily a support, utility, face build. However, between Eldritch Blast with Agonizing, Spike Growth, and Create Bonfire, plus the damage bonus from Genie Pact, you should be no slouch on damage output either.

During combat, you primarily spam Eldritch Blast and rearrange the battlefield to your group's liking with Repelling Blast. If you can afford to, use Spike Growth to drop some extra damage on top. At later levels, you can use Sickening Radiance when it will work out well for your side; keep in mind you can really punish things trying to get out of it by pushing them back in since they'll have to save once on the turn you drop them in and again when their turn starts. 

Aura of Purity might seem risky since you're only wearing Light Armor with a 16 AC and it has a 30 foot radius, and you're not wrong. However, as a Genie you will gain the ability to hover without Concentration over the battlefield. If your team needs the help, you can play guardian angel and keep them all in your radius while staying safely out of reach of melee enemies (except the really really big guys).

Aid is a crazy good spell for a Warlock to have. You can target 3 creatures, it lasts 8 hours, and it stacks with temporary hit points. At level 14 you have 3 spell slots and you're casting 5th level spells. Start your day by increasing your entire party's HP maximum by 20. This, other than the flavor, is the real reason we're playing Mark of Hospitality. Everyone else might as well dump Constitution because you're making up for it (j/k they still shouldn't but you get my point). Then you just rest for one extra hour and you're good to go. If you have a stingy DM who won't let that work, fine, you just get your spells back after the first short rest and the Aid is still going to last all day.

By the way, you have that genie bottle. You can provide a 10 minute short rest to your group by level 10 once per day. But also, that thing is a super Bag of Holding. It has a 20 foot radius and is 20 feet high with no weight limit. It doesn't specify how you get objects in there, but you can because it specifies that objects stay there until carried out. Presumably, that means objects have to be carried in. Ever find a treasure hoard so vast that you couldn't actually take all of it? I have. This solves that. Over-encumber everyone until they can't move, drop everything in the bottle, catch your breath, then head home. 

We also take the Chef feat because it's on brand (or maybe I should say flavorful I'm sorry), it bumps our Constitution to 14, we increase healing efficiency with short rests (stacking nicely with Aid), and we can provide treats for a little THP on top of the Aid buff.

The Gift of the Protectors Invocation is basically Death Ward for your party, although only once per day. If you really wanted this on each of your party members you could play Undying Warlock and get the spell slots back on a short rest, but then you'd be an Undying Warlock.

And of course we have Tome of Ancient Secrets because access to every ritual in the game is handy.

Okay so we're doing battlefield control, we're doing damage, we're providing utility and support in the form of rests and extra HP and carrying capacity and rituals. Let's get to the social stuff.

First, we're a Warlock with a 20 Charisma, proficiency in all the social skills, and we have the Mark of Hospitality for a bonus 1d4 on Persuasion checks. We also have Mask of Many Faces, so we can look like whoever we want at any time without Concentration.  That also means we can use Friends without the accountability that comes when it wears off, since we probably don't look like the same person anymore. 

But also (and this is definitely a "check with your DM" but I think most will allow it because it's clever) think about how this combines with Whispers of the Grave. I've advocated for this invocation before, click this to see why I think it's so great. But also, with Mask of Many Faces you can look like whatever you need to look like to convince the corpse to give you the info you want. It might be hard to convince a cultist to tell the adventurers who just killed him where the hideout is, but if another city's cultists found the aftermath of the battle and want to reinforce the hideout before those adventurers get there, that might be another story. All of that is clearly intended, what you should check is whether you can cast Friends on a corpse you're talking to. My understanding is technically you cannot because a corpse becomes an object instead of a creature, and Friends targets a creature. But you're talking with it, and it was a creature until presumably a little bit ago, so c'mon. Let 'em play, ref.

This is also why you have Tongues. You can talk to any corpse now. Any corpse that could talk, anyway. Speak With Dead doesn't require a humanoid corpse, it doesn't require that it died recently, and it doesn't require that the corpse is in good shape. You can talk to a 2,000 year old skull if it still has "a mouth." As I say in the other thread: you are a D&D adventurer, you will always need more information and you will spend a lot of time around corpses.

And that's why I say this is everyone's best friend. You can talk to anyone with any language, alive or dead, and you do it really well. You buff your team. You don't exactly heal, but you make it harder to die. You give them a place to rest. You do battlefield control and solid damage. You provide all rituals you can get your hands on. You cook. Your Unseen Servant cleans. You look like whatever you need to look like whenever you want. 

Also Resistance gets a bad rep too; it's super handy out of combat when you think someone is about to have to make a saving throw. If you think a hallway has traps, or you're opening a chest or door or whatever, you might be glad for that extra 1d4 on a save.

And then you get Limited Wish and eventually Wish. If you're at that point, think up something clever, you're the expert now.

----------


## Renduaz

*Literally Luke Skywalker*

*Race:* Variant Human
*Background:* Far Traveler or Knight of The Order ( har.. har.. )
*Class:* Battle Smith Artificer 3, Creation Bard 6, Scribes Wizard 6, Horizon Walker Ranger 3, Aberrant Mind Sorcerer 1, Peace Cleric 1
*Favored Enemy:* Humanoids. You know who.
*Favored Terrain:* No space? Desert I guess, because Tatooine.
*Fighting Style:* Defense or Dueling, and Blind Fighting.
*Artificer Infusions:* Homunculus Servant, Returning Weapon
*Eldritch Invocations:* Eldritch Sight
*Feats:* Telekinetic, Eldritch Adept, Fighting Initiate, Prodigy
*Spells:* Light, Guidance, Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy, Catapult, Charm Person, Cure Wounds, Command, Jump, Longstrider, Mage Armor, Shield, Sanctuary, Tenser's Floating Disk, Calm Emotions, Enlarge/Reduce, Hold Person, Magic Mouth, Suggestion, Counterspell, Animate Dead, Nondetection

A long time ago, In a Galaxy far, far away..

As you probably guessed by now, this is a total meme build, and it is not intended to be powerful or even decent in any way. It is a great way to troll a campaign, perhaps a one-shot, by mockingly denying any out of game reference and insisting this is just the way your character likes to roll with style, or just fooling around. However, for what it does, it does well, and you are going to be everyone's favorite Jedi in virtually every aspect imaginable.

Well, almost since I kind of wanted to fit in Deflect Missiles even though Shield also does the job, but speaking of which, this entire build is malleable to change and you can roleplay any other Force User with any race really, there are probably some cool possibilities I forgot anyway since I don't take it very seriously. Anyway, let's see what's cooking.

"We're really doing this, aren't we?"

*Your weapon* - A saber, or Rapier, held by your gloved hand. Infused with the Returning Weapon property, so as to return to your grip when beckoned, bearing the Light Spell and thus becoming a source of bright light with a color of your choixe, and lastly, Magical Tinkering applied to your glove to continously emit a nonverbal sound, namely a low vrooming hum.

*Your armor* - A particular kind of robe.

*Your Companions*  - STARRING: the Steel Defender as C-3PO, The Homunculus Servant as R2D2 ( Might want to Enlarge it ), and an Animating Performance construct created by Performance of Creation as your *ahem* fake model ( Stone, Iron, glass + coloration ) X-Wing which you can totally pilot with your companions by the way. Long story, check out my Mechapilot build if you want. And last but not least.. a moaning animated Zombie with a fur costume as Chewbacca. Hey, at least you can get the stench right, and its always possible to place a few Magic Mouth necklaces near its mouth, or something else.

The Force

It is strong with this one.

*Force Damage* - Make an attack? Planar Warrior, force damage. Cast a 1st level spell? Awakened Spellbook, force damage.

*Force Ghost* - Manifest Mind? Your old master!

*Force Connection* - Telepathic Speech and Emboldening Bond

*Force Training* - Blind Fighting, Telekinetic, and Eldritch Sight to sense disturbances in the Force. Prodigy because well, that's what it says on the midi-chlorian reader.

*Force Powers* - Some mind control powers, some healing, object hurling, movement stunts, Hold Person as Force Choke, Shield to deflect projectiles, Force protection making you harder to hit, Counterspell to contest other force users, and most importantly: Guidance with a verbal component of 'May the Force be with you' and Tenser's Floating Disk so you can always have the high ground.

And there we have it.

----------


## ftafp

Guys, I don't mean to gatekeep but can we please have some quality control with these builds? This is supposed to be a thread for builds that are both unusual and highly effective. I'm seeing a lot of stuff that are just single-class builds with no surprises, and a lot of stuff that's very clearly not playtested. Also, at least one of these builds is using a race taken from danddwiki.com




> Race: Kor
> Class: Druid 20
> Subclass: Circle of Stars

----------


## Dalinar

> Guys, I don't mean to gatekeep but can we please have some quality control with these builds? This is supposed to be a thread for builds that are both unusual and highly effective. I'm seeing a lot of stuff that are just single-class builds with no surprises, and a lot of stuff that's very clearly not playtested


I think this is a perfectly fair discussion to have. Please take all this with utmost respect.

I won't speak for other recent posters in this thread, but in my case, the Joestar Special was not meant to actually be played, but as my best answer to the question "how hard can you punch somebody in DnD?" It would probably be very clunky and ineffective if you took it to an actual table, since it is designed to do one thing and one thing only, measured against a (humanoid) target dummy with no saving throws, resistances, or AC, and that one thing it does isn't even particularly useful compared to just being, say, a bog-standard Fighter/Barbarian GWM build. But man, can you punch a hole in that (humanoid) sandbag! 

As such, I'm not sure "should be playtested" is a criterion that applies. 

Then again, to quote the OP:




> Herein are collected some builds that were made in response to advice threads and the like. Since these were responses to specific questions, I have tried to summarize the context for each. All of them are good from level 1-20 and can perform in all 3 pillars of play.
> 
> Hopefully these help provide people with some ideas for fun and viable builds. Enjoy!


If we're going to take these as our criteria, then I certainly wouldn't describe the Joestar Special as "good from level 1-20," "can perform in all 3 pillars of play," or even "fun and viable." So perhaps it does not belong here. 

For what it's worth, this thread appears to have become the "Post Your Character Builds Megathread" of this forum, even if it was originally intended to just be a place for Ludic's builds. If you think there's a more appropriate thread for that, I'd like to be pointed in that direction. (I'd prefer not to post my own thread(s), as to prevent clutter.)

And I'll come back with something cool later, I promise. :)

----------


## Quietus

> Guys, I don't mean to gatekeep but can we please have some quality control with these builds? This is supposed to be a thread for builds that are both unusual and highly effective. I'm seeing a lot of stuff that are just single-class builds with no surprises, and a lot of stuff that's very clearly not playtested. Also, at least one of these builds is using a race taken from danddwiki.com


I was thinking the same earlier, but hesitated in saying it.  As Dalinar quoted, even if these builds aren't from Ludic (as it is clear was never the intention), they should be builds that do something interesting or novel, and can engage in all three pillars.  Not just "Be D&Dwiki race, be druid".




> I think this is a perfectly fair discussion to have. Please take all this with utmost respect.
> 
> I won't speak for other recent posters in this thread, but in my case, the Joestar Special was not meant to actually be played, but as my best answer to the question "how hard can you punch somebody in DnD?" It would probably be very clunky and ineffective if you took it to an actual table, since it is designed to do one thing and one thing only, measured against a (humanoid) target dummy with no saving throws, resistances, or AC, and that one thing it does isn't even particularly useful compared to just being, say, a bog-standard Fighter/Barbarian GWM build. But man, can you punch a hole in that (humanoid) sandbag! 
> 
> As such, I'm not sure "should be playtested" is a criterion that applies. 
> 
> Then again, to quote the OP:
> 
> 
> ...


Perhaps this forum needs a Character Builds Megathread?  There is definitely a place for these posts, but there's been a whole lot of builds posted recently that have had no "Huh, interesting" appeal for me.

----------


## Jon talks a lot

> Guys, I don't mean to gatekeep but can we please have some quality control with these builds? This is supposed to be a thread for builds that are both unusual and highly effective. I'm seeing a lot of stuff that are just single-class builds with no surprises, and a lot of stuff that's very clearly not playtested. Also, at least one of these builds is using a race taken from danddwiki.com


Ok, I shouldn't have posted the druid, that was dumb. I agree that that was stupid. 

I mean, I did use UA in one of my builds, and plane shift, but no outright homebrew.

----------


## Jon talks a lot

> \
> 
> Perhaps this forum needs a Character Builds Megathread?  There is definitely a place for these posts, but there's been a whole lot of builds posted recently that have had no "Huh, interesting" appeal for me.


Most of those are probably from me. I wish there was a character builds megathread, because I would have posted them there instead. I really just wanted advice about them and had nowhere else to post.

Edit: I'm going to delete the single class builds that I just wanted advice on from this thread.

----------


## Evaar

> Guys, I don't mean to gatekeep but can we please have some quality control with these builds? This is supposed to be a thread for builds that are both unusual and highly effective. I'm seeing a lot of stuff that are just single-class builds with no surprises, and a lot of stuff that's very clearly not playtested. Also, at least one of these builds is using a race taken from danddwiki.com


I dont disagree but I do want to just point out - multiclassing isnt a requirement here. Personally, I think a lot of builds overcomplicate things by presuming they have to multiclass to be novel. 

All of the builds from the first post are all straight class builds. The key is in utilizing everything those classes give access to in order to accomplish a lot of things across all pillars of gameplay and preferably is viable from level 1 - 20. 

Thats why I felt the Warlock I posted above qualified, even though it doesnt multiclass. The most novel thing about it is the ability to upcast Aid with spell slots that return on a short rest, but it contributes a lot of convenience to its party.

----------


## Dalinar

Civis Mundi was kind enough to make us a Megathread so as to avoid clutter in this one.

I think that if that thread becomes the general "post-your-build-for-feedback" thread, this one can become a more curated "Legendary Builds" thread. It'd feature the most highly-effective builds across all levels and all three pillars, and/or the most creative builds, from this thread, the Megathread, and other threads around this forum (like that Creation 18/Genie 2 thread that went up recently).

Fortunately, Ludic has kind of done that already via linking a bunch of cool builds from this thread in the OP, but I don't necessarily want to saddle one particular person with that job, so...

Thoughts?

----------


## LudicSavant

*Peeks in at thread to see what's been going on.*

I for one am happy for people to post their optimized builds for feedback and have no intention to gatekeep other peoples' builds (I am highly unlikely to have time to do so regardless) beyond asking that we please stick to the rules and avoid homebrew material like danddwiki.  If you can simply make up a rule to achieve what you want, you're not really sharing knowledge about how to build characters within the system, y'know?

----------


## Civis Mundi

> *Peeks in at thread to see what's been going on.*
> 
> I for one am happy for people to post their optimized builds for feedback and have no intention to gatekeep other peoples' builds (I am highly unlikely to have time to do so regardless) beyond asking that we please stick to the rules and avoid homebrew material like danddwiki.  If you can simply make up a rule to achieve what you want, you're not really sharing knowledge about how to build characters within the system, y'know?


Fair enough! I hope it's clear that my intention was not to gatekeep. I started the thread because there was talk about such a thing, and I thought, why not? I figured it would be easier to navigate this thread with another one open to work-in-process. That way, people could go to that thread when they're still developing ideas, and this thread when they want to present them as finished products to be used by future players. I know I've got a lot of builds kicking around that I'd love to further develop, but I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing many of them in this thread, at least in their current state. They're just not up to snuff.

Anyway, I don't mean to ramble. If the other thread dies on the vine, it wasn't meant to be. But for my own peace of mind, I wanted to make sure my intentions were clear. I made the thread to encourage further sharing, not in the spirit of elitism.

----------


## Wraith

*The Oxymoronic Meat-Grinder*


Hard to tell that she's an Enlarged Rune Knight, but it's a trick of perspective - 
the rest of the party are down here, lower than the thighs of this 30' tall dwarf. 

Honest.

*Race:* Dwarf (Duergar)
*Class:* Fighter 3 / Ranger 11
*Subclasses:* Rune Knight / Hunter Conclave
*Favoured Foe/Terrain:* Doesn't really matter, pick something appropriate to your campaign - or at least, something that tends to appear in large groups, like Zombies or Goblins.

*Starting Stats (without TCoE):* STR 15 (+1), DEX 14, CON 12 (+2), INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 8
*ASIs:* Increase STR and CON, and recommended feats include: _War Caster_; Heavy Armour Master; Polearm Master; Sentinel; Great Weapon Master.

This started out as an exercise in How many attacks can I make in 1 round kind of thing and took off from there. 
*DISCLAIMER: Theory-crafting is in effect from here onwards - the situation in which you get the absolute highest efficiency with this build is unlikely, but technically possible and scales down in other circumstances. Dont expect to do this every single round, but be prepared to bask in glory when the opportunity arises.*

*Starting Out:*
If it wasnt already clear, we begin by abusing the synergy between a Rune Knights Giant Size ability and the fact that a Duergar can cast _Enlarge_ as a racial spell from level 3. We can now be Huge sized whenever we like, which gives us a footprint of 15ft by 15ft - or, 3x3 squares (PHB pg191).

Its a Huge Dwarf. Theres your oxymoron, since you were wondering.

After this, we pick up Ranger. It really doesnt matter what your Favoured Foes or your Favoured Terrain are, pick whatever you think will be suitable for your campaign. Something that turns up in large numbers would be wise - Undead for packs of zombies, etc.

Well take Blindfighting as our Fighting Style because its a generally acceptable way of dealing with Sunlight Sensitivity (check with your GM to make certain) and because an ability with a 10ft radius is all the better when we already start with a 60ft circumference, rather than the usual 20ft.

At level 6 our Conclave is Hunter, because all were going to do is head in a straight line to Hunter 11. Doesn't really matter what other Conclave abilities you pick along the way, but since were staying on theme for More Attacks then Horde Breaker is recommended, as is Escape the Horde for help in getting into or out of our favourable setup.

At Ranger 11 we get to pick our Multiattack option, which should be Whirlwind Attack. This is the capstone to our combo which, under ideal circumstances, lets us drop our wrath on a ridiculous number of enemies.
Whirlwind Attack lets us spend an action to make a separate attack roll against any number of enemies within 5, but because we are 15ft x 15ft wide that gives us an effective Area of Effect of 16 squares around our circumference and we can roll to hit each and every one of them. And then Action Surge to do it again. And because we have Horde Breaker, we can make one additional attack against anyone who isnt the first guy we hit.

Unfortunately because Whirlwind Attack is a specific action and not an Attack action we cant then use our offhand for one more swing, but frankly thats probably fair. Up to 33 attack rolls in one round is plenty, and we can repeat this for every round for as long as we maintain concentration on _Enlarge_, because Whirlwind Attack isnt limited by Uses Per Day.

And theres your Meat-Grinder, if it werent already obvious.

For ASIs youre very likely to max out that STR one way or another - the plan for this character is to insert themselves into a mob of enemies and then Spin-to-Win until they all die, but if any of them survive then youre going to be surrounded by angry monsters having just drawn attention to yourself. Making sure that they take as much damage as possible, or that you can soak as much as possible, is vital.

With that in mind, your recommended feats are slightly different to that of a normal front-line melee character. For a start, War Caster is huge - you only have one Enlarge per day and youre inevitably going to be surrounded by enemies, so you need to make sure it doesnt get lost. Similarly, any other feats are likely to be ones that keep you alive - Heavy Armour Master and Lucky, for example. 
If youd rather stick to more traditional Ranger apparel, you might consider swapping your Great Weapon Fighting style for Two-Weapon Fighting, just for the compromise of carrying a Finesse weapon in your off-hand and then picking up Defensive Duellist, as +3AC can potentially be a lifesaver when enough attacks are thrown at you and you can't/won't carry a shield. 
Of course, you can throw caution to the wind with the usual Polearm Master/Sentinel combination and just make sure that everything dies before it gets near to you. Similarly, since youre likely to kill SOMETHING then Great Weapon Master gives you the chance to make yet another attack after dropping one of your many victims to 0hp. That's your _34th_ attack of the turn, for those who are keeping count.

Unfortunately there isnt much that we can do with Ranger spells; an awful lot of them require concentration which is going to cost us our _Enlarge_, so I recommend things that we can use as emergency buttons for dire situations. _Zephyr Strike_ will let us escape from a crowd more or less unscathed, and _Meld Into Stone_ will do the same thing albeit in a different direction. Otherwise, healing spells and _Absorb Elements_ to use as a Reaction are probably your best, safest ways to keep going in a prolonged fight.

To finish the build, our statline limits us to a small handful of options and Fighter is probably the best one - those extra levels gets us 3 valuable ASIs and some excellent class abilities like Giant's Runes and Indomitable, whereas 6 more levels of Ranger only gets us more Favoured Enemies and one choice from Superior Hunters Defences, which are. Okay in the right campaign, in all fairness, but just not as great. 
Ranger 12 / Fighter 8 misses out on Indomitable, but gets you the last ASI from Ranger so that's probably a fair trade if you're going feat-heavy or want to top up on a stat.

*Pro's of the Build:* Your explosive potential is just hilarious. Improve your damage in any way - buff from an ally, magical weapon, multiclass into something like Hexblade, etc - and your Damage-Per-Turn potentially skyrockets. On top of that you have some useful out-of-fight abilities to help get the party where they need to go, a little bit of stealth for good measure, and all the battlefield control that being a Huge creature with a Reach weapon can provide.

*Con's of the Build:* It's clearly a late-bloomer; you're going to be level 14 before you can do your 'trick' and until then you're just a front-line melee beatstick. This isn't necessarily a horrible proposition as Polearm Master and/or Sentinel + Reach arrives significantly earlier and is always welcome in a squishy party that needs protecting, but it's almost all you'll be doing for quite a long time.
Similarly; One day you're just going to fight an enemy who, by preference, is alone - a dragon for example, or a Tarrasque - at which point you are just a big person with a stick who is trying not to die. Such is already the problem with being a Hunter Conclave Ranger in general, but if you're also leaning heavily into it then you run out of other options quite quickly.

*Alternative Starts:*

*Elf / Eladrin / Shadar Kai (Two-Weapon Fighting; Feat - Fey Teleportation)*
Although youre only going to be Large rather than Huge and thus in range of a smaller number of enemies, being able to teleport is a HUGE advantage for this build as it lets us get into the most densely populated area of the map without breaking our concentration. This means we can set up Giant Size and then a suitable way to give ourselves an edge - _Fog Cloud_ for example, which we ignore with Blindfighting - before diving in and unleashing havoc.

*Grung (Two-Weapon Fighting; Feat - Poisoner)*
_Check with your GM before assuming that this works, because it reads like it should but feels like it shouldnt._ 
A Grungs Poisonous Skin ability reads: You can also apply this poison to any piercing weapon as part of an attack with that weapon, which is not necessarily the same thing as making an Attack action. On paper, it works with Whirlwind Attack as that also reads makes melee attacks rather than make an Attack action, so again although youre only Large, youre trading quantity for quality and forcing Poison damage on everyone you strike, up to 25 times in a row.

*Artificer / Wizard / Sorcerer (3)*
Lets say you want the best of both worlds, wherein you want to be Huge and you want to be anything other than a Dwarf. In principle you can - its just a 3 level dip to pick up 2nd level Spellcasting from Wizard, Sorcerer or Artificer.
The killer with this is that were now super-MAD because well need STR and CON to make the build effective, WIS for Ranger, and then either INT or CHA for the third class. It can be done, either by spending ASIs on your dumped stats (WRONG) or by dumping DEX from the beginning and just dealing with being a slow-poke. Potentially a lot of fun for a high level game - were now up to level 17 just to get it all squeezed in together - but its there if you want it!

----------


## LumenPlacidum

You could use Moon Druid to get a larger form instead of Rune Knight or Duergar. Unfortunately, you need 6 levels of druid to get a huge form (either Giant Constrictor Snake or Quetzalcoatlus)

On the plus side, Quetzalcoatlus lets you use Dive Attack on every single one of those whirlwind targets. So, each will take 6d6+2 damage from the bite. On the down side, you only have +4 to hit...

----------


## Wraith

Interesting idea. Can we go bigger?

Yes we can, with a magic item. Duergar Hunter 11 / Fighter 2 / Moon Druid 7. Put your _Enlarge_ into a Ring of Spell Storing and have a Familiar or Ally use it after you have Wild Shaped - Huge becomes Gargantuan, so enjoy Whirlwind Attack-ing a ring of 20 targets, twice per turn. And then Horde Breaker someone, because why not?

Giant Elk (CR2) are Huge too, and they have a _massive_ +6 to hit. Doesn't hit nearly as hard, but also a more viable alternative if your DM is a stickler for the "creatures that you have actually seen" pre-requisite.

That might be crossing the line and going too far, but frankly we'd struggle to even see the line from WAAAAYYY up here.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Citadel97501

In regards to the Oxymoronic Meat Grinder, I wonder if there is a way to do this with Word of Radiance?  I think it would come online earlier and still be a lot of fun.  Perhaps something like the following?


Race: Aasimar simply due to cool factor of a giant glowing angry angel...
Fighter: 6, Rune Knight
Sorcerer: 14 Divine Soul
ASI & Feats: Charisma, & Constitution, Meta-magic feat from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, and Heavy Armor Mastery (I have been looking for a reason to use this).

This gives you great concentration saves, armor proficiencies, great meta-magic options, possible healing and support effects while letting you stay a pretty solid tank.  You also have a good mix of short rest and long rest abilities, many of which are bonus action or reactions.

Damage: 3d6 per target on a failed save.  So with a size of huge, this should always be at least 2 targets.  

Con's: Really wonky build but the sheer number of options will be a lot of fun.

----------


## Wraith

I really like that idea - the idea of an 'Angel' plummeting out of the sky and everything around it exploding in a ring of holy light.

It adds together nicely too - Aasimar get their Radiant Soul/Radiant Consumption/Necrotic Shroud transformation and deal [Level] to one target once per turn, so that becomes 3d6 Radiant (half on save) +20 Radiant/Necrotic (straight up, no save) and actually goes some way to solving the problem of how to efficiently fight one target rather than a crowd.

I might've tried to squeeze in 6 levels of Celestial Warlock (Fighter 3/Warlock 6/Sorcerer 11) because then that gives us another +CHA Radiant damage via Radiant Soul per casting, Hexblade allows us to make use of our inevitably buffed CHA in melee if we feel like it for a change and feel like being even more SAD, and we can Coffeelock spell slots down the line too.... But that might be needlessly complicated. Giant Aasimar with Word of Radiance is pretty cool all by itself.  :Small Smile: 

Alternatively; Wizard (Evocation) 6 instead? Potent Cantrip doesn't specify Wizard cantrips after all, so it's guaranteed damage... Or just drop Sorcerer for Wizard 14 and do the same thing for _Sword Burst_ or _Thunderclap_ depending on what flavour you want to go for.

....Rune Knight 3 / Hunter 11 / Evoker 6 with the Magic Initiate (Cleric) feat. Guaranteed Radiant, Thunder or Force damage on command, multiple _Enlarge_'s per day, no restriction on race, and a Glaive to PAM/Sentinel anything that survives. It's an absolute mess to build and we've dropped a whole bunch of ASI's, so why do we need all of this? ....Because.

----------


## ftafp

> *The Wagoneer*
> 
> *Thesis:* This is a build designed to showcase the College of Creation's fantastic abilities as a crafter due to its ability to ignore costly material components for spells that can quickly add up for other casters
> 
> *Race:* Human, Mark of Making
> *Class Split:* Artificer 2/Creation Bard 18
> *Level Progression:* Artificer 1 -> Bard 1 -> Artificer 2 -> Creation Bard 2-18
> *Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, (12+2) Con, 13 Int, 10 Wis, (15+1) Cha
> *Asi:* Cha [email protected], Cha [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
> ...


Reposting this here as well I guess

----------


## Citadel97501

Hello all, I was reading over the Turntech, and I was wondering how someone got the Spellwrought Tattoo as an infusion?  From what I can see that would require changing the Replicate Magic Item tables to allow it, which frankly is a bad idea as that item would be easily broken...

----------


## Wraith

> Hello all, I was reading over the Turntech, and I was wondering how someone got the Spellwrought Tattoo as an infusion? From what I can see that would require changing the Replicate Magic Item tables to allow it, which frankly is a bad idea as that item would be easily broken...


A Spellwrought Tattoo that casts either a cantrip or a 1st level spell is a Common rarity magic item. Feels like a bit of an oversight since it excludes other disposable items like potions and scrolls, but it seems legit.




> Using this infusion, you replicate a particular magic item. You can learn this infusion multiple times; each time you do so, choose a magic item that you can make with it, picking from the Replicable Items tables. A table's title tells you the level you must be in the class to choose an item from the table. *Alternatively, you can choose the magic item from among the common magic items in the game*, not including potions or scrolls.

----------


## bpugliese

> *Build 4:  Arcana Cleric Frontliner*
> This one was built to showcase how Arcana Clerics can make sticky and versatile frontliners who can do an awful lot to actively lock down or counter foes whether were talking about melee brutes, mook swarms, spellcasters, whatever.  It's very similar to a build we used in a campaign that ran from low to high levels, to great effect.


I enjoyed the idea behind this one.
Would you consider changing anything on it today (with tashas and all) or is it still as a good as before?

----------


## LudicSavant

> I enjoyed the idea behind this one.
> Would you consider changing anything on it today (with tashas and all) or is it still as a good as before?


Tasha's has power creeped it with an expanded spell list (most notably Aura of Vitality, Summon Celestial, and Sunburst)  and a _much_ better use of Channel Divinity (Harness Divine Power).

Also, Tasha's has a lot of strong feats to consider.  It also offers us the Custom Lineage race, which allows us to have a 17 Wis / 15 Con base, bump the Con up to 16 when we take Res(Con), and fit an extra Wis half-feat (like Fey-Touched) into the progression without slowing it down.

As for why those new spells are notable:

- *Summon Celestial* is arguably the best Tasha's summon, and can up your DPR substantially when cast from a level 6 or 8 slot, essentially giving you 3-4 ranged _PC quality_ attacks, *for no additional action economy*, for an entire hour.  This is seriously like just adding an extra martial character to your team.

To get an idea of how much damage we're talking about here, a level 17 GWM Bear-barian using a greatsword, Rage, Brutal Critical and Reckless Attack deals ~36.7 DPR vs AC 19, with Advantage (just ~22.6 DPR without).  A level 17 Champion with Superior Critical, GWF, GWM, and a greatsword deals ~35.8 DPR vs AC 19.  A level 8 Summon Celestial Avenger deals 45.6 DPR vs AC 19, or 62.4 with Advantage.  And it's Radiant (the best damage type along with Force) and long ranged.  Again, this is _on top of_ the Arcana Cleric's Booming Blade and Spiritual Weapon and such.  Your summon doesn't impact your action economy at all.  In short, you are now a high single target damage character for an hour.  

But wait, there's more.  You can use Simulacrum and have _two_ of these Celestials, and _two_ of your Booming Blades and Spiritual Weapons.  Eat your heart out, Fighter with Action Surge.

Also, it's Large, and flies, which means you can potentially use it as a mount.  You're just stacking this on top of your Spiritual Weapon and Booming Blade in order to just obliterate single targets in an efficient manner at high levels.

- *Aura of Vitality* is the most efficient heal in its slot level, and applies Spellbreaker.  No surprises here.

- *Sunburst* gives Clerics access to a non-Concentration giant-size AoE -- a whopping 120 foot diameter.  Much bigger than Fire Storm.  If you're facing an army, having you and your Simulacrum drop this may just solve the encounter outright.

----------


## Rihno

Not at all an all-powerfull build, but just something I made for friend for fun.


*
"D6 Piercer"*

*Race*: Half-Orc
*Class*: Barbarian (Ancestral) 5/12 Rogue (Swashbuckler)/3 Fighter Champion
*ASI*: Piercer +1 STR, Orcish Fury +1 STR, +2 STR
*Fighting Style*: Two-Weapon Fighting Style (requires two light weapons)
*Weapons*: Dual Short Swords (two light weapons) for piercing damage.

The base is to make 3 attacks with Advantage, critting on 19-20. That is same crit chance as Elven Accuracy 3 attacks without 19-20 crit range, though little less accurate. If we use Action Surge our crit chance during single turn is around... 60%? So nice.

As Ancestral we can hit a guy and make him either chase us or he will attack with disadvantage our allies who will have resistance to all his damage and as Swashbuckler we can attack and move out without provoking OAs so no need to take Mobile feat (though you can take it later if you want). A _Hit'n'Run taunt crit-fish build_ so to say.

When we score crit we can combine Savage Attacks, Sneak attack 6d6 (requires finease weapon, not attacking with DEX), Orcish Fury (making weapon dice 2d6) and Piercer (another 1d6 to cirt) for total of 18d6 critical hit + 5 for 63 crit damage. Without Orcish Fury you can make it 16d6 critical.

It's a gimmick build but my friend wanted _"Nimble Barbarian stabbing people in hearts with fast light weapons"_ so I came with it. Not bad, not terrible :D

As for Progression I would go Barbarian 5/8 Rogue/3 Champion and continue Rogue from there but you can do as you please.

----------


## Evaar

> *
> "D6 Piercer"*


Reminds me of the opening fight from Troy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbXJkQWdyNA

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## LumenPlacidum

After extensive efforts to improve upon Soulknife with multiclassing, I think I'm going to suggest the following build.

*Soulknife Generalist*

Build goals - Be an effective user of many of the most important skills in the game. Doesn't need to focus on damage output, but shouldn't fall significantly behind either. Uses the Soulknife rogue subclass in a way that doesn't ignore its titular feature.

*Race.* Tabaxi
*Starting Class.* Rogue
*Ability Scores.* Str 12, Dex 14+2, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12+1
*Total Build.* Rogue (Soulknife) 10 / Ranger (Fey Wanderer) 3 / Fighter 7 (Rune Knight)

*Level 1-3.* Rogue (Soulknife)
Proficiencies: Acrobatics +5, Arcana +2, Athletics +3, Disguise Kit +3, Insight +4, Investigation +4, Perception +6, Persuasion +3, Poisoner's Kit +2, Stealth +5, Thieves' Tools +5

You are a typical rogue with +5 to hit with a rapier or bow and 1d6 sneak attack. You have a climb speed and proficiency in Athletics to get you to those places that the other party members cannot reach, enhancing your ability as a scout. If needed, you can move with great speed.
You offer the party not just reliable skills, but also absolutely silent communications over up to a mile with telepathy. You're a great, mobile, sneaky scout who can actually understand what you're looking at. The ability to coordinate with your team is excellent.
_Attack Routine._ Psychic Blade +5 (1d6+3) and Psychic Blade +5 (1d4+3) and Sneak Attack +2d6. 10.14 expected damage per turn.

*Level 4-6.* Ranger (Fey Wanderer)
Proficiencies: Acrobatics +6, Arcana +6, Athletics +4, Deception +6, Disguise Kit +6, Insight +5, Investigation +6, Perception +8, Persuasion +6, Poisoner's Kit +3, Stealth +6, Survival +5, Thieves' Tools +6

With Fey Wanderer, you aren't depressing your extra sneak attack damage dice too much because Favored Foe and Dreadful Strikes are giving you the ability to add 2d4 to damage. Actually, 2d6+2d4 is better than 3d6! You gain the ability to use some good utility spells from Ranger. You also have either the blindfighting (for use with fog cloud) or dueling style.
_Attack Routine._ Psychic Blade +6 (1d6+3+1d4) and Psychic Blade +6 (1d4+3+1d4) and Sneak Attack +2d6 and Dreadful Strikes +1d4. 15.56 expected damage per turn.

*Level 7-8.* Rogue (Soulknife)
Proficiencies: Acrobatics +7, Arcana +6, Athletics +7, Deception +6, Disguise Kit +6, Insight +5, Investigation +6, Perception +8, Persuasion +6, Poisoner's Kit +3, Stealth +10, Survival +5, Thieves' Tools +7

You are happy to boost your Dex by 2 with your first ASI. You sink Expertise into a couple more skills--this time focusing on things that you want to be great at rather than things that you don't want to be bad at. Grabbing Uncanny Dodge never hurt anyone...
_Attack Routine._ Psychic Blade +7 (1d6+4+1d4) and Psychic Blade +7 (1d4+4+1d4) and Sneak Attack +3d6 and Dreadful Strikes +1d4. 20.78 expected damage per turn (dipping quite close to my minimum acceptable of 2.5 per level).

*Level 9-11.* Fighter (Rune Knight)
Proficiencies: Acrobatics +8, Arcana +8, Athletics +9, Deception(a) +7, Disguise Kit +11, Insight +6, Investigation +8, Perception +10, Persuasion +7, Poisoner's Kit +8, Smith's Tools +10, Stealth +12, Survival +6, Thieves' Tools +12

Fighter gives you the Blind-Fighting or Dueling style (whichever one you didn't select from Ranger). The runes from Rune Knight get you advantage with Sleight of Hand checks (you're not proficient, but you have a +4 anyway), Deception checks (+7 with advantage is solid), and Expertise with all tools that you're already proficient in. Additionally, you get to switch an attack target and you get to restrain someone with fiery shackles once per rest. Also, even though we're still taking levels in things that aren't rogue, we're still getting bonus damage dice. Giant Might gives you +1d6 on a damage roll each round, and hey, it makes you make Athletics rolls with advantage (at +9!).
_Attack Routine._ Psychic Blade +8 (1d6+4+1d4+2) and Psychic Blade +8 (1d4+4+1d4+2) and Sneak Attack +3d6 and Dreadful Strikes +1d4 and Giant Might +1d6. 27.56 expected damage per turn (still quite close to my minimum).

*Level 12-16.* Rogue (Soulknife)
Proficiencies: Acrobatics +10, Arcana +10, Athletics +11, Deception(a) +8, Disguise Kit +13, Insight +7, Investigation +10, Perception +12, Persuasion +8, Poisoner's Kit +10, Smith's Tools +12, Stealth +15, Survival +7, Thieves' Tools +15

Dex goes up to 20 with the ASI and you grab the ability to boost your missed attacks with a psi-die, as well as other rogue goodies. Your psi-die becomes a d10. You may not be able to toss spells around like a wizard, but you're still highly mobile and you have a lot of utility.
With your ASI at Rogue 10, I would grab Ritual Caster (wizard) or Alert. 
_Attack Routine._ Psychic Blade +10+1d10 (1d6+5+1d4+2) and Psychic Blade +10+1d10 (1d4+5+1d4+2) and Sneak Attack +5d6 and Dreadful Strikes +1d4 and Giant Might +1d6. 47.72 expected damage per turn. The Soul Blades ability fixed our dipping damage.

*Level 17-20.* Fighter
Proficiencies: Acrobatics +11, Arcana +12, Athletics +13, Deception(a) +11, Disguise Kit +17, Insight +10, Investigation +12, Perception +16, Persuasion +11, Poisoner's Kit +12, Smith's Tools +16, Stealth +17, Survival +11, Thieves' Tools +17

Bump your Wisdom. You get solid rune options and more reaction abilities using the Storm Rune and Runic Shield. With Extra Attack you could choose to wield a weapon in one hand and... swap it to the other hand in your attack action? Or drop it. This gets you a third attack, although it's awfully silly. Let's assume that it's with a dagger.

_Attack Routine._ Psychic Blade +11+1d10 (1d6+5+1d4+2) and Dagger +11 (1d4+5+1d4+2) and Psychic Blade +11+1d10 (1d4+5+1d4+2) and Sneak Attack +5d6 and Dreadful Strikes +1d4 and Giant Might +1d6. ~59 expected damage per turn if you attack with the dagger.



You are doing solid damage in combat, without the need to get into melee range (you're throwing your psychic blades). You're using your reactions to either improve your own survivability (Uncanny Dodge), turn around an enemy attack (Cloud Rune), or at level 20, impose advantage or disadvantage on something (Storm Rune or Runic Shield).

You have rock-solid skills distributed over scouting, thievery, knowledges, and social aptitude. You are almost _completely_ innocuous in society, since the only weapon you carry around is a dagger and you're wearing only light armor.

----------


## bpugliese

> *Build 13:  The Ancient Kyujutsu Master*


Really cool way of playing ranged combat. 

Some questions (sorry in advance if they have obvious answers, I'm kinda new to the concept):
1. Isn't using Hand Crossbows and Crossbow expert better DPR? I don't mean going battlemaster, I saw your comparison of the two. I mean staying in your samurai build but with more attacks at lower levels. 

2. If the answer to (1) is no, is it worth picking crossbow expert just for negating disadvantage at close quarters? I see you put it pretty late when compared to other sharpshotter builds, but in your case it seems you could straight up ignore it and get something else instead. 

3. Besides the firearms variation you posted later on the thread, is there any other suggestion to update this with the most recent content additions? My table doesn't allow firearms so that new samurai with musket build seems unachievable for me.


Thanks in advance.

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## Rihno

*"Arcane Knight"*




*Build that allows to play as very tanky Battle Smith with Elven Accuracy + Great Weapon Master combo. High AC, resistance to all damage, high saves, sticky + high damage in all package + Find Familiar for utility. He is also crit-fisher in late game and you can then use your Arcane Jolt for nice 4d6 + 17 + 8d8 crit.* 

*Race*: Half-Elf Mark of Storm. Thanks to this we receive Fog Cloud spell which will be our bread-n-butter tactic.
*Class*: Artificer: Battle Smith 5/1 Fighter/12 Battle Smith/2 Fighter: Champion
*Fighting Style*: Blind Fighting
*Attributes*: 14 DEX, 16 CON, 17 INT, 10 WIS
*ASI*: (4) Elven Accuracy +1 INT, (9) GWM, (13)+2 INT, (17) Sentinel, whatever you like later
*Infusions*: Enhanced Defense, Enhanced Weapon, Boots of the Winding Path, Replicate Magic Item (SPELLWROUGHT TATTOO, common, spell: Find Familliar)
Progression: Battle Smith 5/1 Fighter. First Grab extra attack. You can use Fearie Fire + EA + Greatsword +1 till you get Blind Fighting Style and can utilize Fog Cloud. 

*Gameplay combo:*

*Build comes fully online on level 9. With 18 INT we can attack with Greatsword +1 using Elven Accuracy + Fog Cloud + Blind Fighting Style + Great Weapon Master combo and Bonus Action Rend from our Steel Defender* if we won't score crit or reduce enemy to 0 to get bonus action attack from GWM. This is our base. *At this level you are looking at 38 DPR vs AC 19 at level 9.* 

Of course later we add more good stuff, like on level 13 we are getting Greatsword +2 and 20 INT. *Our Base DPR vs AC 19 is now 53 damage. We can add Arcane Jolt to it to get 61 DPR.* 

We can craft ourselves *Replicate Magic Item (SPELLWROUGHT TATTOO, common, spell: Find Familliar)*, which will give us Familliar. This will help us when we will be fighting enemy with Blindsight. Help Action from our Familliar will give us chance to use Elven Accuracy + GWM once per turn.

However, we also have Sentinel feat which gives us extra attack as reaction if enemy will hit our ally 5 feet from us. Our Steel Defender will be next to us all the time. Now how to force enemy to rather hit our Steel Defender than us? Make them hopeless at doing anything to us.

Let's look at our Defense here. 
*
Here is "Tank Spell-Storing Item Combo: Warding Bond".*

*1.* Half-Plate +2 
*2*. Cloak of Protection +1 AC, +1 saves
*4*. Spell-Storing Item: *Warding Bond used by our Steel Defender on us (Steel Defender after errata can use Spell-Storing Item) +1 AC, +1 saves, resistance to all damage. It doesn't require concentration so Defender won't drop it* unless it's dead, but he has enough HP to last combat and Mending allows to easy healing.
*5.* Shield spell +5 AC
*6.* Disadvantage on melee attacks against us inside Fog Cloud due to our Blindsight from Blind Fighting Style
*7*. Deflect Attack from our Steel Defender if we fight enemy with Blindsight too (like Dragons) to give them disadvantage
*8*. Absorb Elements if we get hit by some spell. Warding Bond will reduce that by half and we can further reduce that by half if needed.
*9*. We can also use reaction for Flask of Genius to boost Saving Throw by +5 if needed.

So we look at total of... *21 AC + Shield 26 AC + Resistance to all damage and +2 to all saves and disadvantage in melee on enemies attacks and +7 to one save as reaction.* And we reduce speed to 0 on OA and enemies can't disengage from us.

So enemy has to chose whenever it wants to try to hit us and do pitful damage if he will hit (Warding Bond), try to disengage from us which is not possible becasue Sentinel will keep them or try to attack our Defender (or other ally) which will trigger yet another GWM EA attack on them. *If our enemy will trigger Sentinel attack then we look at (with 4d6 Arcan Jolt added) 90 DPR vs AC 19.* 

Don't worry about Warding Bond. Your Defender has a lot of HP and he will receive only damage you have taken which is reduce by half thanks to Warding Bond. So even if you are hit by attack of 20 dmg he will take only 10. And Mending after combat heals him for 2d6 so he will be fine :).

At level 15 and 16 we also get 4d6 Arcane Jolt, extra 1d4+5 force damage from our defender Deflect Attack and Magic Item Savant.

*Other Combo: "Striker Spell-Storing Item Combo: Haste":*

*1.* Instead of putting Warding Bond inside Spell-Storing item you can put there Fog Cloud for your Defender to use. It's concentration however so remember that it can drop.
*2.* Put Haste on yourself instead for Extra attack and +2 AC. Now your AC is 22 without resistance to all damage, *but your DPR is 82 vs AC 19 using Arcane Jolt on level 13 or 111 DPR if your enemy trigger Sentinel Extra attack with Arcane Jolt 4d6.*

*Spell Caster and Replicate Magic Item .*

Build is made to be self-suficient with Fog Cloud + Blind Fighting + Warding Bond combo. However DnD is team-game so if you have other casters in party then you have more room to cast different spells. For example your party Wizard or Druid can cast Fog Cloud instead or cast Darkness on you, triggering your Elven Accuracy in melee. You can then use Haste on yourself instead or cast Bigby's Hand or Animate Objects or Freedom of Movement.

Don't forget that with time you can create a lot of great items with Replicate Magic Item. With time you will be able to have Winged Boots and have Fly, Amulet of Health for 19 CON, Boots of Speed to combo with Haste for riddiculous speed, Ring of Free Action, Ring of Protection to stack with Cloak of Protection etc. 

So there is still a lot of room for power in this build.


*What after level 18:*

You can finish this build as you prefer really. Champion Fighter will give you 19-20 crit range which is great on EA + GWM combo. You will also get Action Surge for more Nova. With Haste + Sentinel Attack + Action Surge + Rending you look at over *162 DPR vs AC 19 on level 20.* 

You can also just finish with Battle Smith, though I don't think he has anything worth after level 15 and they are no Paladins so slots are not that needed for them and this build is melee, not a caster. But it can't hurt.

Wizard is another one giving you maybe Portent or Arcane Deflection.

Hell, if you have stats for it from rolling you can even get 2 Paladin levels and add Divine Smite to your Arcane Knight :)

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## Yabbamann

Hey Ludic, new to these forums so not quite sure how everything works. This is regarding the "Demonweb Spider" build, since I had a Shadow Monk recently before Tasha's that felt underwhelming and wanted to see what was possible with the new additions.

You say at the bottom the half-drow is probably the best race, but why? Is it because of Drow Magic giving an extra Darkness once per Long Rest that doesn't require Ki Points?

Also, the starting stats are 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8 right? Since you get +2/+1/+1 with Half-Elf? How would reducing Con to 14 get you a 12? It would be a 15/15/14/10/8/8 baseline wouldn't it?

Otherwise, love all of these builds, I've got the page bookmarked because I love reading over them once a week for the inspiration and wonderful ideas.

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## x3n0n

> Hey Ludic, new to these forums so not quite sure how everything works. This is regarding the "Demonweb Spider" build, since I had a Shadow Monk recently before Tasha's that felt underwhelming and wanted to see what was possible with the new additions.
> 
> You say at the bottom the half-drow is probably the best race, but why? Is it because of Drow Magic giving an extra Darkness once per Long Rest that doesn't require Ki Points?
> 
> Also, the starting stats are 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8 right? Since you get +2/+1/+1 with Half-Elf? How would reducing Con to 14 get you a 12? It would be a 15/15/14/10/8/8 baseline wouldn't it?
> 
> Otherwise, love all of these builds, I've got the page bookmarked because I love reading over them once a week for the inspiration and wonderful ideas.


I think that's intended to be 15+2/15+1/13+1/12/8/8 (or 10/10/8).

I can't speak directly to the Drow Magic choice, but I guessed the same as you.

Comparing the other options:
vanilla Skill Versatility seems fine if you want to be more skilled and versatile. :)Weapon Training is basically just an option to Tasha-swap for tools (since you're taking Fighter levels).Fleet of Foot seems fine, but I'm not sure how often the additional 5 are going to help on top of the already huge speeds you get as a Monk.Mask of the Wild seems underwhelming here.Cantrip seems fine, I guess, but you already get Minor Illusion and don't want GFB/BB IMO.

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## javianhalt

Great post!
So many ideas to try, and so few tables to play haha

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## Yabbamann

> I think that's intended to be 15+2/15+1/13+1/12/8/8 (or 10/10/8).
> 
> I can't speak directly to the Drow Magic choice, but I guessed the same as you.
> 
> Comparing the other options:
> vanilla Skill Versatility seems fine if you want to be more skilled and versatile. :)Weapon Training is basically just an option to Tasha-swap for tools (since you're taking Fighter levels).Fleet of Foot seems fine, but I'm not sure how often the additional 5 are going to help on top of the already huge speeds you get as a Monk.Mask of the Wild seems underwhelming here.Cantrip seems fine, I guess, but you already get Minor Illusion and don't want GFB/BB IMO.


Ahh, reducing it to 13+1 would work, I forgot about the extra +1, you're right!
Agreed regarding other Half-Elf variant, definitely seems like base or Half-Drow are the only real viable options since you don't need the +5 feet from Half-Wood since you're a Monk already.
Cantrip could be something damaging at range, but you'd need Int, so seems very unwise to invest for it.
Good to know I figured out the website a bit, thanks for the reply, and happy holidays!

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## Renduaz

*The Farfire Visionary*

*Race*: Firbolg/Gnome ( Forest )/Fire Genasi/Yuan-Ti Pureblood
*Class*: Wildfire Druid 6/Spellcaster X
*Feats*: Lucky, Keen Mind, Metamagic Adept, Ritual Caster, Spell Sniper, Inspiring Leader
*Spells*: Control Flames, Fire Bolt, Guidance, Magic Stone, Message, Minor Illusion, Animal Friendship, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Goodberry, Longstrider, Sanctuary, Speak with Animals, Aid, Rope Trick, Beast Sense, Darkvision, Invisibility, Locate Animals or Plants, Glyph of Warding, Life Transference, Phantom Steed, Tiny Servant, Arcane Eye, Awaken, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Create Homunculus, Soul Cage, True Seeing, Regenerate, Simulacrum

*Description*

This build attains, at least for an hour, what might be the holy grail of remote spellcasting - Unlimited range and almost full casting capabilities, that is being able to remotely deliver any amount of spells without restriction. It surpasses Invoke Duplicity, Manifest Mind, Chainlock familiar Dronemaster abilities, and to some extent even a Simulacrum when it comes to range and available resources, but it is more vulnerable as well.

We'll be using the Wildfire Druid's 'Enhanced Bond' alongside Beast Sense to overcome the barriers preventing remote spellcasting and therefore gain the ability to cast spells from the Wildfire Spirit at any range, even across planes. _This build comes online at Level 6 already._

*Races*

Firbolg - Good for Speech of Beast and Leaf

Gnome ( Forest ) - For Speak With Small Beasts

Fire Genasi - Purely for cosmetic reasons.

Yuan-Ti Pureblood - Unlimited Animal Friendship on snakes

*Classes*

Circle of Wildfire Druid 6 - This is your base class, which enables the primary combo. You get access to your Wildfire Spirit which is very handy on its own as it can teleport you or likely our entire party at will, carry you as it hovers if you are of a Small race or naturally thin, and do all sorts of other stuff. The Spirit is intelligent, friendly, obeys your commands, and has awesome statistics with HP that scales with your Druid level.

In addition, you gain access to all the Druid apells you will need to achieve the combo. At level 6, you get Enhanced Bond which gives you a nice bonus to fire damage and healing spells, which will mean a lot when it comes to healing your spirit itself too, but more importantly letting you, when you cast a spell with a range other than self, make it originate from your Wildfire Spirit.

What this essentially means is that for an hour, you could send your Wildfire Spirit absolutely anywhere, be it via its own movememt or a mount or teleportation, and if only you could communicate with it over that range to let it know how tomproceed, and then to be able to see or sense what's around it, you could target something with your own spells from that point in spite of distance, even from another plane as the Wildfire Spirit has no range restrictions.

We'll learn how to do that efficiently soon enough, but for now, here's some RAW discussion to clear things up before we proceed:

*Spoiler: RAW Discussion*
Show



Range: A spell's Range is a part of the spell's description that governs it casting. A spell that originates from me can obviously only affect targets which are a given distance away from where it was cast. Though if I were to imbue a spell in a Spell-Storing Item, it would also take effect from its point of origin.

So, if a spell has a range of 120 feet, and you see an enemy 130 feet away, of course you could successfully target that enemy if your Wildfire Spirit was within 120 feet, as that is where rhe casting and the range it can traverse originate from. Your Enhanced Bond would be quite useless otherwise - note also how only Self spells are excluded, but not Touch spells.

It would be silly to think that no Touch spells can be used with that feature via your Spirit since your own range is greater - Instead, the spell simply physically originates from the Wildfire Spirit, and the same is true for any other range.

On the other hand, spell descriptions which specifically work based on distance from _you_ might not work as intended, as you are not considered to be in the Spirit's space - So for example Mage Hand or Tenser's Floating Disk can be cast, but will immediately vanish due to being out of range.

A Clear Path to the Target: This rule is found under the spell Targets section and applies whenever a spell is being cast. So long as your spell has no impassable obstacles on its path to a target, then _you_ have a clear path [ of the spell ] to the target.

It goes on to explain - "So it can't be behind total cover". If you read the Cover definitions and rules, you can find the following: "_A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover_." Your attacks and other effects do not originate from the opposite side, but directly from the Wildfire Spirit, therefore said target cannot benefit from cover ( Save for any degree of cover from the Wildfire Spirit itself ) against spells originating from rhe Wildfire Spirit, therefore it has no total cover from the spell, therefore it can be targeted by you and you have a clear path to it.



Druid X - You could continue your progression as a Druid up to any level from this point, which does have its merits in regards to early high-level spells and Archdruid, but your upcoming class features don't add much to the build and you'll be far more limited in your remote spellcasting later on

Divination Wizard 14/Evocation Wizard 14 - These are some of rhe best Multiclassing options, as you get a full Wizard list to go with your Enhanced Bond and the opportunity to freely cast concentration spells by level 11, which is also available to the Bard. You also get either Portent, Greater Portent that can be used at any range by sight or higher damage rolls with an Evocation Wizard and the ultimate Overchannel

Creation Bard 14 - You can use Performance of Creation and Creative Crescendo to substitute material costs of expensive spells and provide custom protective items for your beasts. You also get a bunch of good buff and healing spells, Magical Secrets to steal Simulacrum and other spells as needed, and Animating Performance if you want your Wildfire Spirirt and beast to pilot a secure Mecha which move on its own.

Alchemist Artificer 14 - Enables a wide variety of Dronemaster techniques without expending your spells, though this time around you can also cast spells. Battlemaster Steel Defender is an issue because its cumbersome and doesn't do much since we can't neccessarily command it with a bonus action, and if we could we'd want to command the Spirit. Also bad features.

Genie Warlock 1/Life Cleric 1 - These are quick dips that you can grab by level 7. It does lock you out of some of rhe Wizard's and Bard mist powerful 14th level features, but you may never reach level 20 in most campaigns. Life Cleric synergizes with Enhanced Bond's healing boost and makes it much easier to keep it and your beast alive. Genie's Vessel lets you do incredible Dronemaster stuff and you can even let your Spirirr carry the vessel with you while maintaining a full telepathic and sensual link to its surroundings.

*Feats*

Keen Mind - Recall everything seen and heard by your Wildfire Spirit

Ritual Caster - Wizard list for Rary's Telepathic Bond

Inspiring Leader - Temp HP for your beast and Spirit

The rest are self-evident in their utility.

*Routines*

Bestial Link - I know what you're thinking by now. How in the world do I intend to obtain a full telepathic _and_ sensual connection with the Wildfire Spirit elemental _and_ have a free action left to cast spells at the same time, over an unlimited range for 1 hour as a level 6 Druid? Well, you see, its simple. Just kidding, its slightly complicated.

We can't use features like Voice of the Chain Master which require a constant action to maintain, we can't use Aberrant Mind's Telepathic Speech which doesn't share senses and lasts minutes at best, and so on. So we'll need to use Beast Sense which lasts for an hour, has no range limit, and allows us to perceive through a beast's senses for as much as we want by using our action only once.

Of course, first you will need to find and convince a willing beast. It can be a tough beast or a tiny common beast more conveniently, and that's why you have a bunch of racial traits and spells to do it. You should also keep a bunch of pets at hand for that purposes. They're beasts, so coaxing them shouldn't be too hard especially when Charmed, and most of those spells, together with Beast Sense itself, can be cast as Rituals.

Keep in mind, you can always be evil about it. A beast, upon accepting the spell, cannot cancel it for the duration. So if you are faced with a reluctant beast being sent to some horrible mission or one that is likely to bolt, just devise a container to lock it in place facing a certain direction and mount or equip it somewhere on your Wildfire Spirit.

Great, so now we can see, hear and smell in the Spirit's proximity and thus pick our targets from afar, and the Spirit itself is a sentient being with fairly good INT and WIS that can be instructed with general combat tactics ( Hiding, keeping range, etc ) or think for itself, and it doesn't require either our action, bonus action or verbal command to move on its turns. But what if we want to inform it of something or tell it how to approach environmental obstacles, puzzles and the like?

We're already concentrating on Beast Sense and a spell like Beast Bond won't work as it is also concentration, requires line of sight, and only lasts 10 minutes. But this is where the genius part comes in - You see, any spell we cast can originate from the Spirit: Which means you can Message it or convey images and sounds via Minor Illusion to it an infinite number of times over any range.

Sure, you can't micromanage it in the midst of battle, but the Spirit is pretty intelligent and obeys commands, so you can instruct it about your spells, when to retreat, what distance to keep, etc, and even do so right before combat if you know its about to enter a dangerous area. You can also use a cantrip and a bonus action spell. By level 10, if you took Ritual Caster, even that will no longer pose a problem.

Protecting Minions - Unfortunately, your beast - particularly a Tiny low CR one is probably quite squishy, so you'll want to make sure its well perserved lest your link be cut off. Other than the feats and spells available to artificially increase its hp pool, you have the Mechapilot Bard feature for both the beast and its Spirit if you chose it, and you should probably construct some Adamantine container with crystalline views. After all, the beast only needs to see, not cast.

Being put inside an Artificer's unlit Lantern of Revealing or some magical item also works, or a Rope Trick. Once you get rid of the concentration barrier, even more spells will be available. As for your tougher Wildfire Spirit, a variety of spells can heal it as needed. Finally, if you took the path of the Druid or Bard at higher levels, Awaken could grant your beast sentience if you chose a more sturdy one as a permanent minion.

Offensive Capabilities - You can make the most out of the beast's presence by giving it a Magic Stone to throw at enemies, which can be renewed by your Wildfire Spirit. Likewise, as long as your beast is in a sage container or placed out of harm's way, many Fire based AOE and radius effect syngerize well with the Spirit's Fire immunity, not to mention entire pyres ready to ignite or Alchemist's Fire flasks or molten metal unleashed from a broken Genie's Vessel.

Cancelling Concentration - By level 11 as a Multiclasaed Wizard or Bard, or by level 15 as a Multiclassed Artificer, you can place your Beast Sense in a Glyph of Warding at your remote or extradimensional command location and send out your Wildfire Spirit concentration-free, opening up the use of concentration spells, among them Invisibility - So long as your Wildfire Spirit and beasts are not attacking, as they are not the ones casting the spells, you could cast through them invisibly.

Higher Levels - I won't go over everything you could do without concentration limits or with a Bard's Magical Secrets, except to comment that you will eventually be able to exchange your less reliable beasts for a much beefier Create Homunculus and its free sensual telepathic feature, and throw in Simulacrum to the mix for even more remote power.

----------


## LudicSavant

> Hey Ludic, new to these forums so not quite sure how everything works. This is regarding the "Demonweb Spider" build, since I had a Shadow Monk recently before Tasha's that felt underwhelming and wanted to see what was possible with the new additions.
> 
> You say at the bottom the half-drow is probably the best race, but why? Is it because of Drow Magic giving an extra Darkness once per Long Rest that doesn't require Ki Points?
> 
> Also, the starting stats are 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8 right? Since you get +2/+1/+1 with Half-Elf? How would reducing Con to 14 get you a 12? It would be a 15/15/14/10/8/8 baseline wouldn't it?


Monk statline choices for a Half-Elf after racial modifiers are
-17/16/16/8/8/8 
-17/16/14/12/8/
-17/16/14/10/10/8

Half-Drow is good because of the extra attribute point on the games most MAD class, qualifying for Elven Accuracy, resisting charms, and saving 2 ki per day with an extra Darkness cast.  You can *never* have too much ki as a Monk.

The main attraction for picking another kind of elf is likely to be skills.

Other elves and half-elves are solid Monk choices too. Dragonmarked ones can boost your favorite skills, while others can give you more skills (and/or tools by swapping out weapon proficiencies).  Wood Elves make you a bit faster and able to hide in a few more situations.  Eladrin and Shadar-Kai are nice but you already have mobility bonus actions.

Regular Drow sadly suffer from Sunlight Sensitivity, which is usually bad on an attack-roll-heavy class even if you can blot it out with Darkness. After all, sometimes youll wanna cast other spells.  Or save your ki.

----------


## Asura2468

> Cloudkill


Hey a question, i wanna try and use that build for Avernus since the fog cloud is really ncie vs the demons, devils etc there. I was wondering, since we only go to lvl 13... is it worth to put int to 20? or would i be better to maybe get some wisdom and resilient: wis for that lvlcap?

----------


## Droppeddead

Is it OK to just link to my build inthe other thread? :)

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...7&postcount=79

----------


## javianhalt

> *"Arcane Knight"*


I really liked your idea here but my DM won't allow "Half-Elf Mark of Storm" (no Eberron stuff). Do you have any alternatives to get access to fog cloud? 
Do you think Half-Elf Drow with a free Darkness cast could provide the same utility?

----------


## stoutstien

> I really liked your idea here but my DM won't allow "Half-Elf Mark of Storm". Do you have any alternatives to get access to fog cloud? 
> Do you think Half-Elf Drow with a free Darkness cast could provide the same utility?


Unfortunately that would not add it to the class spell list so you wouldn't be able to use it with the spell storing item.  The Shadow touched feat and silent image (fog) works as an alternative with the free cast 1/LR and allowing it to be used with normal slots but once again no SSI fun. 
The only other way I can think of to get fog cloud cheaply is a one level dip in genie warlock (marid) or wizard. Both will get some extra spell slot recovery and have other benefits depending on your overall goal.

Edit- SWT infusion: fog cloud.

----------


## Hairfish

> I really liked your idea here but my DM won't allow "Half-Elf Mark of Storm" (no Eberron stuff). Do you have any alternatives to get access to fog cloud? 
> Do you think Half-Elf Drow with a free Darkness cast could provide the same utility?


Artificers get Pyrotechnics, which can produce a spell effect very similar to Fog Cloud. 2nd-level spell and only lasts a minute, but also doesn't require concentration.

----------


## Wraith

> I really liked your idea here but my DM won't allow "Half-Elf Mark of Storm" (no Eberron stuff). Do you have any alternatives to get access to fog cloud? 
> Do you think Half-Elf Drow with a free Darkness cast could provide the same utility?


Play as a Triton, they start with Fog Cloud as an innate spell. You'll have to swap Elven Accuracy for something else - Fey Touched might be okay for the +INT, if not just a straight +2 - but otherwise just about everything else works out.




> Unfortunately that would not add it to the class spell list so you wouldn't be able to use it with the spell storing item.


I've never heard of this before - the Ring of Spell Storing has no such limitation for example, if just needs a spell to be cast regardless of where it's from. Have I missed something, or is it a feature of a particular item, please?

----------


## stoutstien

> Play as a Triton, they start with Fog Cloud as an innate spell. You'll have to swap Elven Accuracy for something else - Fey Touched might be okay for the +INT, if not just a straight +2 - but otherwise just about everything else works out.
> 
> 
> 
> I've never heard of this before - the Ring of Spell Storing has no such limitation for example, if just needs a spell to be cast regardless of where it's from. Have I missed something, or is it a feature of a particular item, please?


The spell storing item is a unique feature in more than one way. It explicitly calls out that the spell being put in it has to come from the artificer's spell list so in order to get a new spell option it needs to be worded in a similar manner. The Dragonmark races add the additional spells to the class list as does the GGtR backgrounds.

----------


## Dalinar

Think you're out of luck as far as dips go, too, as just knowing the spell from another class doesn't also make it an artificer spell.

I think substituting Pyrotechnics and carrying around a source of fire for it is the play, as it can make a pretty close substitute for Fog Cloud.

----------


## Stattick

> Think you're out of luck as far as dips go, too, as just knowing the spell from another class doesn't also make it an artificer spell.
> 
> I think substituting Pyrotechnics and carrying around a source of fire for it is the play, as it can make a pretty close substitute for Fog Cloud.


Spellcasting classes, aside from Warlocks, all use the same slots. There's no differentiating Artificer or Sorcerer spells.

Now, having Fog Cloud as a Sorcerer spell would mean that it's cast using Charisma instead of Int. That's going to effect the spells Attack Modifier or DC. In the case of Fog Cloud, neither are used.

----------


## Wraith

> The spell storing item is a unique feature in more than one way. It explicitly calls out that the spell being put in it has to come from the artificer's spell list so in order to get a new spell option it needs to be worded in a similar manner. The Dragonmark races add the additional spells to the class list as does the GGtR backgrounds.


Oh, I see - it's an Artificer ability. I had completely forgotten about that and thought it was just a generic Magic Item, thank you for clarifying.

Still, that comes online at level 11 (12 for the build in full); asking for an actual Ring of Spell Storing or even something like a Horn of Fog is probably not unlikely long before that. There's options, is all I'm saying  :Small Smile:

----------


## Dalinar

> Spellcasting classes, aside from Warlocks, all use the same slots. There's no differentiating Artificer or Sorcerer spells.
> 
> Now, having Fog Cloud as a Sorcerer spell would mean that it's cast using Charisma instead of Int. That's going to effect the spells Attack Modifier or DC. In the case of Fog Cloud, neither are used.


Slots have nothing to do with it. You have the spells known of say, Sorcerer X/Warlock Y? You can cast Armor of Agathys with your Sorc slots, but that does not make it "a spell from the sorcerer spell list" which is the language Spell-storing Item uses. (obviously Clockwork Soul can get it but let's say you didn't do that)

Similarly, an Artificer 11/Wizard 1 that knows Fog Cloud doesn't add Fog Cloud to the "artificer spell list."

----------


## Stattick

> Slots have nothing to do with it. You have the spells known of say, Sorcerer X/Warlock Y? You can cast Armor of Agathys with your Sorc slots, but that does not make it "a spell from the sorcerer spell list" which is the language Spell-storing Item uses. (obviously Clockwork Soul can get it but let's say you didn't do that)
> 
> Similarly, an Artificer 11/Wizard 1 that knows Fog Cloud doesn't add Fog Cloud to the "artificer spell list."


Oh, I see. It's some weird Artificer ability. I thought you were misunderstanding how multiclassing slots are used.

----------


## Withershins

Greetings, 

I am not generally a forum poster type...just wanted to quickly give some thanks to LudicSavant and the rest of the build contributors on this thread. It has been really interesting to theory craft with you all, even if until this point it has - for me - been a solitary venture.  Your contributions are appreciated!

That being said:  

Question #1:
I have a question/suggestion related to the Soulknife build (which is amazing and I am set to begin playing it in a game very soon. Fortunately we could roll stats (10,11,11,15,17,17) and I got pretty lucky. But while tinkering and adjusting I couldn't help but think of the possible synergy and pure excellence of an Eldritch Knight X/ Bladesinger X build...am I mistaken?

If this were to be a thing - what would it look like?

Question #2:
This thread is missing a "Bladed Dance of Death" build for the Bladesinger akin to the incredible Nuclear Wizard build for the Evoker...if someone would be interested in parsing this out in as concise and impactful manner as is typical for this forum, that would be greatly appreciate.

Hats off all, nice work

Wither

----------


## LudicSavant

> Greetings, 
> 
> I am not generally a forum poster type...just wanted to quickly give some thanks to LudicSavant and the rest of the build contributors on this thread. It has been really interesting to theory craft with you all, even if until this point it has - for me - been a solitary venture.  Your contributions are appreciated!
> 
> That being said:  
> 
> Question #1:
> I have a question/suggestion related to the Soulknife build (which is amazing and I am set to begin playing it in a game very soon. Fortunately we could roll stats (10,11,11,15,17,17) and I got pretty lucky. But while tinkering and adjusting I couldn't help but think of the possible synergy and pure excellence of an Eldritch Knight X/ Bladesinger X build...am I mistaken?
> 
> ...


Welcome Wither!

To answer Question #1, the Tasha's Bladesinger is a powerful alternative to the War Wizard for the Soulknife Build.  You can basically just replace it using the same 11/9 or 12/8 split.

----------


## Evaar

> But while tinkering and adjusting I couldn't help but think of the possible synergy and pure excellence of an Eldritch Knight X/ Bladesinger X build...am I mistaken?


It will work quite well.

However, one thing to consider is that you're losing the huge bonus to Saving Throws granted by the War Wizard in exchange for Bladesong. Bladesong means you can't use a shield, whereas the EK/War Wizard can, so you're probably breaking roughly even on your AC while you lose the save bonus. Bladesinger DOES have the superior Extra Attack now, but I haven't fully considered how well that works when combined with EK features. 

You get better mobility and better Concentration, but I think it's not quite as synergistic as the War Wizard. It will still work very well.

----------


## Houster

Really like what's going on here. I *tried* to look at all builds so I do not repeat. I think I don't, feel free to correct me.

                              *Korg- the push*

A cow that made an accord with her cloud of flies, they can pester her, but they must obey- and push push push!

Minotaur battlemaster/swarm keeper

Start stats 17 13 12 8 16 8 (tasha for 2 str and 1 wis, point buy)
The basic trick here, is you can knock things, far far away, every turn, in melee. Comes online at 4th, apex at 9th. She is best used to push enemies to hazards from far far away, where they think they are safe. Can create some herself.
Levels 1-6 fighter battlemaster- defense, pushing attack(choose any other maneuvers you like)
At 4th take crusher(+1 str), at 6th take tough(that 12 con hurts). Or wis +2.
7-9 ranger swarmkeeper. Choose any 2nd fighting style really. Spells- I thing Entangle and hunter's mark are a must. There are a ton of good choices for the rest.
10th ranger again- choose mobile so you can reach pushed targets with more ease, to push again, or tough.
From here you can go fighter or ranger, i'd take 2 more fighter for another asi then go ranger 8 for more spells and swarmkeeper stuff. Spike growth can really hurt, you can launch a foe with one strike a distance of 35 ft(so you do not chase him into the spikes) resulting in taking 7*2d4 damage. Decent. A

This build can come to it's apex sooner, using only swarmkeeper till 5th then switching to fighter, but I thought playing him without heavy armor is a serious pain
.
Also you can go 1 fighter- 5 swarm keeper- more fighter.
That gets you heavy armor, but delaying crusher and extra attack for 1 level, which hurts.
It Depends what level you are starting at.


Distance calcs- 

At 4th level you can push- 5(crusher)+10(hammering horns), no resources. Add pushing attack to get a whopping 40 feet push a turn.

At 9th level you can push, with no resources, 5(crusher)+10(hammering horns)+15(swarm)= 30 feet. It's hard to pull all of this off-
You must-
Hit first attack- crusher and swarm activate.
Enemy fails str save(ranger spell dc)
Need to run up 20 feet to the enemy and hit 2nd time.
Immediately use hammering horns with bonus action.
Enemy needs to fail 2nd saving throw and be pushed another 10 ft.

But- 30 is a ton. And you can try this every single turn. 5 feet push is almost a guarantee, just need to hit once. More likely you'll pull off also the swarm/hammering horns, so likely 15-20 ft. A turn.
If you need more push- use pushing attack on second hit,  gives you 15 more to a maximum of 45 ft per turn.
Action surge to dash/attack more for ridicules pushing outside of the map.




This girl uses a maul and heavy armor, hits for decent damage and can use swarm+maneuvers+hunter's mark for extra damage.
She is a melee control beast with manuevers and spells like entangle, ensnaring strike and web. Good dc's all around too.

Variation- more size less push- go rune knight instead of battle master so you can push huge creatures by going large. You miss on pushing attack.

It's a tough call which variation to choose because huge creatures almost finishes this strat if you can't go large. But this gal has lot's to do other than pushing because of ranger spells and maneuvers/runes. Keep in mind that swarm can push regardless to size, so you can still get some push on huge+ creatures even without rune knight.

Another option is going duergar battlemaster for enlarge(instead of rune knight's enlarge), and grabbing shield master instead of +2 wis. you get all the stuff this way, but, I don't like this because I rather have hammering horns and 18 wis for the swarm push dc, and shield master is a feat you need to take, hurts this asi hungry character a lot.

Puuuuuuush!

----------


## Wraith

*The Eye of Annihilation*
_a.k.a. The Oxymoronic Spell-Caster_

Special thanks to *Citadel97501* who used the same concept behind the Oxymoronic Meat-Grinder build as a basis for a Huge-sized caster putting themselves in the middle of a fight, and using radius-ranged spells for maximum effect. They started with Rune Knight/Divine Soul and Ive thrown together a few more details to make it a fully-fledged build.



*Race:* V.Human (Feat: Magic Initiate - Wizard)
*Class:* Fighter 3 / Sorcerer 3+
*Subclasses:* Rune Knight / Divine Soul

*Starting Stats (without TCoE):* 
CHA should be as high as possible as you need your Spell Save to be reliably difficult to beat. STR at least 13 for multiclassing and for wearing reasonable Heavy Armour. CON is going to be important too, both for HP and for concentration checks. Everything else is expendable - you may even consider a 15/8/15/8/8/15 point buy if you really want to be as lean as possible.

*ASIs:* 
You cant go wrong by rounding off your stats with the half-feats - Fey Touched and Shadow Touched are good as they come with extra spells, and these can be crucial to expanding your repertoire if you go heavily into Divine Souls ability to pick up Cleric Spells instead of Sorcerer ones. 
Feats in general are going to be hugely important, and none more so than War Caster to ensure that you can maintain concentration. Heavy Armour Master will likely be very, very useful, as will Alert for the bonus to Initiative. Depending on how you intend to finish the build, Metamagic Adept may also be up for consideration.

*The Build:*
Broadly speaking its a little bit more efficient to start as Fighter 1 and multiclass into Sorcerer at level 4. Early on you get the benefit of hitpoints and proficiencies from Fighter to give you strong effectiveness between levels 1-3, and your combination of Large size/area-of-effect spells immediately becomes potent when you reach level 4 and go Rune Knight 3/Sorcerer 1.
That being said, though you lose out on Heavy Armour proficiency if you start with Sorcerer there may be a good reason that you would prefer CON and CHA saves instead of STR and CON so Sorcerer 1/Fighter 3 is an option. 

Make your choice, but either way by level 6 you end up as Fighter 3 / Sorcerer 3 which is pretty much the build and everything else is just window-dressing. Youre a Rune Knight so you can be Large upon command, and as a Sorcerer you know _Enlarge/Reduce_ as a 2nd level spell - combine them to become Huge sized, and you then start looking for spells that have just doubled (or more) in efficiency because they draw their range as a radius from your position.

Starting with Cantrips: From Sorcerer you can take _Thunderclap_ and/or _Sword Burst_ that affects every square around you - 16 in total, when youre Huge. You also have access to Sorcerer spells like _Earth Tremor_ and _Thunderwave_ - each of these has a range measured from your position, which as a Huge creature is 3 times wider and deeper than usual. At early levels these are all easy, Instantaneous spells - if you want, you can even Action Surge and throw out two in a single round and make sure you get the job done.
Besides that however, you are a Divine Soul - Not only can you pick up higher level Sorcerer spells like _Globe of Invulnerability_, but you can also take spells from the Cleric list such as: _Word of Radiance_ (Cantrip), _Aura of Vitality_, _Spirit Guardians_ (both 3rd level), _Aura of Life_, _Aura of Purity_ (4th), _Anti-magic Field_, _Holy Aura_ and _Control Weather_ (all 8th level), each of which is ranged in terms of radius from your position. 
Being Huge sized grossly inflates the number of creatures you can affect - a 15ft radius for a Medium sized creature will cover a 7x7 area for 48 squares, but being Huge means you instead cover a 9x9 area for 72 affected squares.

You may have noticed a flaw in this plan - if youre concentrating on _Enlarge_, how can you also concentrate on _Spirit Guardians_ or _Globe of Invulnerability_? The answer is: Cheat.

As a Variant Human, you can select the Magic Initiate feat and pick Wizard as your class in order to select the _Find Familiar_ spell. It is perfectly possible to imbue a Ring of Spell Storing with charges of your _Enlarge/Shrink_ spell and have your Familiar concentrate on the spell for you - any creature can use a Ring of Spell Storing, and according to Adventurers League rules a Familiar can attune to an item provided that you personally have an attunement slot available.
Summon a toad, snake, or similarly discrete familiar, have them hide inside your pocket or breastplate out of harms way, and let them concentrate on _Enlarge_ while you concentrate on something like _Spirit Guardians_ - you will need to do it this way around otherwise youll be making yourself a bigger size but the radius of the damaging spell will be measured from your Tiny companion (who incidentally cant see you, so they cant protect you from being affected by the spell!)

Net result: You are Huge, heavily armoured with a shield, have both proficiency and Advantage on your concentration check, and can hammer out a ring of Radiant, Force or Thunder damage every round, while also choosing between inflicting every enemy around you with persistent damage or while persistently buffing every ally within a 45ft diameter as opposed to the normal 30ft.

And then it gets better when we remember that as a Sorcerer, we have Metamagic. 
You cast _Word of Radiance_, but instead of covering the 5x5 (16 squares) squares around your Huge footprint you want to improve that to cover 5x5 + 6x6 (38 squares) instead? Distant Spell applies to your radius because Range: 5ft is still a ranged spell. (Although note that this only applies to some Instantaneous spells - the persistent ones like _Spirit Guardians_ have a stated range of Self and the radius is the effect of the spell, rather than the range of it.)
This is just for a cantrip, which affects the 5ft around you. If you do the same thing with a bigger spell - like _Earth Tremor_ for example - your effective coverage goes from 24 squares (10ft/2 squares radius drawn from a medium creature) up to 33 squares (10ft/2 squares radius from a Huge creature).
And then add Metamagic; a Distant Spelld _Earth Tremor_ goes up to 20ft in radius, which from a Huge creature covers 11x11 squares, affecting up to 105 squares potentially full of targets.

Want to turn _Thunderclap_ into _Acid-clap_ or _Fire-clap_ to get around crowds of annoying resistances? Transmuted Spell. Want to throw out three _Words of Radiance_ in a single round? Quickened Spell, then Action Surge. You can even make them Careful Spells so that you dont accidentally brutalise your entire party, their pets and friendly NPCs. Yknow If thats what you want.

Besides that, getting into position to use this insane aura of yours is far easier as a Sorcerer than for your melee counterparts. While Divine Soul gives us the innate power of flight at level 14, before that we can manage our action economy with spells - _Misty Step_ requires only a bonus action, so we can get our buffs going in safety, then _Misty Step_ in (Bonus Action) before dropping two huge AoE spells with your Full action and then Action Surge.

*Pro's of the Build:* Viable from Level 4; even just being Large sized and casting radius-ranged cantrips adds more squares to your effective output. Before that, you're a very solid Fighter subclass so you're in little danger of getting hurt by trying to scratch and crawl through early Sorcerer levels with nothing to fall back upon. After that, you have a large range of all the usual Sorcerer/Divine Soul tricks and you're just making them go wider, better and further.

*Con's of the Build:* Theory-Crafting is very much in play. While it's nice to imagine that you'll one day find a convenient 3x3 space on a battlefield that is also surrounded by enemies 4-deep on all sides, realistically you'll never see that and you'll have to settle for dreaming of What Could Be. 
Additionally, the build can rely quite heavily on finding a specific magic item - in a low-magic game, or one where your GM just doesn't want you to have it, you'll either have to enlist an allied player to help you reach Huge size if you also want to concentrate on those persistent spells or otherwise stick to doing it yourself and only using instant spells.

*Progressing the Build:*

*Fighter (Rune Knight) 4 / Sorcerer (Divine Soul) 16*
Probably the simplest and most direct version of the build - you have all your ASIs as well as Level 8 spells for _Holy Aura_, which is potentially great. Sadly theres no way to retain Rune Knight and get your final subclass ability, which comes online at Sorcerer 18, but if you really wanted to you could swap an ASI for an extra metamagic option and level 9 spells by going Fighter 3 / Sorcerer 17. 

*Fighter (Rune Knight) 3 / Bard (College of Lore) 17*
Whenever youre stealing spells from other classes, Bard is always top of the list. Being College of Lore gets Magical Secrets at Bard 6 rather than 10 which sort-of makes up for being unable to get it at Bard 18 - As above wed lose Rune Knight because wed need 3+18 levels.
The advantage of this build is that youre not just locked into Sorcerer or Clerics AoE spells - theres _Aura of Vitality_, _Speak With Plants_ and _Anti-life Shell_ from Druid, and _Circle of Power_ and _Destructive Wave_ from Paladin too, if you want to try something different. Again you can tweak the balance to Fighter 4 / Bard 16 if you want to swap another ASI for Song of Rest (d12); I think thats worthwhile, but it might make a difference depending on your role in the party.

*Fighter (Rune Knight) 3 / Wizard (Evoker) 6 / Sorcerer (Divine Soul) 11*
Bit wonky this one and requires a very strange stat line for multiclassing, but it does let us access Potent Cantrip. This is pretty great because even though _Word of Radiance_ is a Cleric cantrip, we can still make it cause damage even on a successful save for extra reliability, as well as a few useful Wizard spells for when we want to save our precious Sorcerer slots. 
It also gives you direct access to _Find Familiar_, meaning that V.Human isnt so important if youd prefer to play something more unusual, and frankly is overall more practical - the only self-centered Area of Effect spells after _Globe of Invulnerability_ (Sorcerer 11) are at spell level 8, including _Holy Aura_ and _Antimagic Field_, the latter of which switches off your _Enlarge_ and your Familiar anyway so its not a big loss if you dont get that far.

*Fighter (Rune Knight) 4 / Sorcerer (Divine Soul) 4 / Paladin 12*
Im including this one not because its an especially strong spellcaster (though your AoE cantrips are still in full effect) but because of what else comes with it. You get full ASIs and multiclassing from Fighter/Sorcerer into Paladin has all the right stat synergy, but along with a little more melee capability you pick up passive Auras that improve their reach with your size. 
As well as the default Aura of Protection and Aura of Courage from Paladin, noteworthy ones include Aura of the Sentinel (Oath of the Watchers) for a bonus to the partys initiative, Aura of Devotion (Oath of Devotion) to protect from Charming, and Aura of Warding (Oath of the Ancients) to give more allies Resistance to damage from spells.

*Sorcerer (Divine Soul) 14 / Druid (Circle of the Moon) 6*
Things are starting to get weird, but bare with me - if were making a silly build, we might as well see it through to the end.
Heres how this works: Being a level 6 Moon Druid lets you wildshape into CR2 creatures, which includes the Giant Elk. These guys are already Huge sized, so if you wildshape and then have your Familiar cast _Enlarge_ upon you, youre working with a Gargantuan footprint which is 20ft by 20ft (4x4 squares). 
Although when wildshaped you cant cast Instant spells like _Word of Radiance_, you can continue concentrating on spells that you cast while in your humanoid form, like _Spirit Guardians_, so that your 20x20 footprint combined with a 15ft radius lets your spell cover an astounding area of 10x10 - that 86 squares affected, after discounting the 16 that you are standing upon. 
Because thats a thing you would definitely need to do, someday.

----------


## x3n0n

> In theory you could be a Level 1 Fighter with STR/DEX of 10 and multiclass out (which you cant do if you start as a Sorcerer with STR/DEX 10)


Just a nit: the multiclass requirements are actually bidirectional, presumably to avoid this "hack".




> *Prerequisites*
> To qualify for a new class, you must meet the ability score prerequisites for both your current class and your new one, as shown in the Multiclassing Prerequisites table.


Edit: Also:



> That being said, though you lose out on Heavy Armour proficiency if you start with Sorcerer there may be a good reason that you would prefer CON and CHA saves instead of STR and DEX so Sorcerer 1/Fighter 3 is an option.


Fighters get Str/Con save proficiency, not Str/Dex. (Notably, _both_ Fighter and Sorcerer offer Con save proficiency, which seems relevant here.)

PS: fun concept!

----------


## Wraith

I think I might have been using a third-party summary of multiclassing out of laziness, instead of just finding and opening my book. I'll fix those things now. Thank you, much obliged.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Jon talks a lot

> I think I might have been using a third-party summary of multiclassing out of laziness, instead of just finding and opening my book. I'll fix those things now. Thank you, much obliged.


A good one that I have found is the {scrubbed}




> Minotaur battlemaster/swarm keeper


Question, what minotaur are you? There are a total of three. One each from Theros, Ravnica, and Amonkhet. And they are all different.

----------


## Citadel97501

Damn Scary Wraith, you took that basic idea all the way to 11.  :), thank you for the shout out as well.

----------


## ftafp

> Question, what minotaur are you? There are a total of three. One each from Theros, Ravnica, and Amonkhet. And they are all different.


theros and ravnica are identical except for flavor text. Amonkhet is unofficial content.

----------


## Wraith

> A good one that I have found is the {scrub the post, scrub the quote}


{scrubbed}




> thank you for the shout out as well.


It was my pleasure.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Jon talks a lot

The multiclass requirements are in each class link directly below the title.

----------


## Citadel97501

Any suggestions for a Divination Wizard dip or full build?  I am thinking that a build based on controlling through save or suck spells would be interested for the next game, I play in?  I am also interested in something with the Gloomstalker Ranger and if there is anyway to combine the two effectively consider me very interested :)

----------


## Ir0ns0ul

> Any suggestions for a Divination Wizard dip or full build?  I am thinking that a build based on controlling through save or suck spells would be interested for the next game, I play in?  I am also interested in something with the Gloomstalker Ranger and if there is anyway to combine the two effectively consider me very interested :)


Maybe a Halfling Diviner with Lucky feat multiclassed into Bard for Cutting Words? Im playing a Goblin Gloomstalker Ranger with Urchin background and our party is not missing a Rogue at all.

----------


## LudicSavant

> Any suggestions for a Divination Wizard dip or full build?  I am thinking that a build based on controlling through save or suck spells would be interested for the next game, I play in?


The halfling that stacks every dice manipulation ability it can onto a Diviner seems to be everyone's first idea (it seems to come up in every Diviner thread).  However, I personally *don't* recommend doing this.  It's not more than the sum of its parts (e.g. synergistic), because Portent replaces the roll _before_ you get to see if things like halfling luck applies.  All those dice manipulation investments are no more valuable on a Diviner than they'd be on anyone else (in fact, I'd say they might be more useful on another PC than they are on you).

You'll also want to learn your way around the Divination spells on your list, as you are strongly rewarded for using them with your Matryoshka Doll spell slots. 

Mind Spike can be used as a sort of Cantrip Plus.

Locate Object is useful to a clever player for specifying a "general" object to gather information about your surroundings or detect foes.  Locate Object only tells you distance and direction... but if you know that from two points (just move a bit to the side), you can triangulate precise position (no fancy Ludic math or anything needed, just sort of mentally extend the two direction lines out until they meet.  Anyone can do it).

True Seeing is really good with Expert Divination -- use it to see through a vision blocker or make an ally (or multiple allies) do it.

Tasha's adds the very useful Divination and Augury spells to your repertoire.

Even if a Divination spell has no native upcasting effects, you can basically think of it as "you can use this spell an extra time" as an upcast option.  So for example, you can cast True Seeing out of a 7th then 6th to affect two party members, then cast Darkness and have them both get Advantage on all attacks / Disadvantage to be hit.  That sort of thing.

Straight Wizard is great.  If you want to multiclass, Cleric 1 is a good bet.  In general Wizards should try to keep their multiclass dips small, since your spell progression is so powerful.

----------


## Houster

> Question, what minotaur are you? There are a total of three. One each from Theros, Ravnica, and Amonkhet. And they are all different.


Ravnica I think. I don't know any besides 1 I have in an app here.... Anyway it must have the hammering horns feature.

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## javianhalt

> So with the preview of the Genie Patron, I wanted to highlight that it offers a different spin on the Celestial Generalist.
> 
> You lose:
> 1) The healing options, both spells and the Healing Light feature, which are substantial losses
> 2) A couple cantrips (Light and Sacred Flame - not critical losses)
> 3) The other options from the Celestial spell list, including Flaming Sphere, Lesser and Greater Restoration, Revivify as potentially very useful standouts
> 4) The temporary hit points from Celestial Resilience
> 5) The Cheat Death feature from Searing Vengeance
> 
> ...


Did anybody try this after tasha's release? 

Do you have any opinions about it Ludic?

----------


## Jon talks a lot

> Ravnica I think. I don't know any besides 1 I have in an app here.... Anyway it must have the hammering horns feature.


I'm fairly certain the Amonkhet one is the best, but idk. They are all fairly similar.

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## Bilbron

> A good one that I have found is the {scrub the post, scrub the quote}


To the contrary, I've often been led astray by D&D Wiki, which has a few old descriptions and incorrect casting times listed (embarrassing when you make D&D videos!). I've moved to D&D Beyond, even though the interface is much clunkier than D&D Wiki.

----------


## Jon talks a lot

> To the contrary, I've often been led astray by D&D Wiki, which has a few old descriptions and incorrect casting times listed (embarrassing when you make D&D videos!). I've moved to D&D Beyond, even though the interface is much clunkier than D&D Wiki.


There is a difference between dandwiki and the {scrubbed}. I don't know which one you are talking about. Regardless, I have noticed this and have petitioned to become an editor on the site. However, this request was ignored by the admin. 
*Shrug*

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## ftafp

{scrubbed}

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## Evaar

> Did anybody try this after tasha's release? 
> 
> Do you have any opinions about it Ludic?


I actually went to create it, and then decided to go with Fiend Pact instead. 

Really, the build is flexible enough that it works with a few patrons. The most novel synergy Genie brings is the ability to cast Tensers, which I still think is better on a build like this than it would be for any Wizard, and its nice that Genies Wrath plays nicely with it. But I think Celestial is still probably the best patron for it in most groups. Genie has a lot of its own utility that isnt necessarily enhanced by combining it with this build, but its also not wasted. 

In short, I think its fine.

----------


## javianhalt

> Get the armor first, then the rest in whichever order your prefer (I like Cha before Warcaster usually, unless you're expecting to be the main frontliner).  Get Book of Ancient Secrets ASAP.  Get Agonizing/Repelling Blast, then Maddening Hex.  Utility cantrips can be taken early or late depending on your playstyle / campaign / priorities (damage vs utility).
> 
> Direct damage spells should be swapped out as you progress as a Warlock.  For example, Shatter is useful early, but has little place on your list once you know Synaptic Static.


Since we are going Variant Human basically only for the medium armor feat, isn't it a viable strategy to go Mountain dwarf instead? 
Also, pact of the tome gives you nice melee cantrips and access to rituals but isn't pact of the chain better overall because of the scouting and access to "gift of the overpowered healing" invocation?

----------


## LudicSavant

> Since we are going Variant Human basically only for the medium armor feat, isn't it a viable strategy to go Mountain dwarf instead? 
> Also, pact of the tome gives you nice melee cantrips and access to rituals but isn't pact of the chain better overall because of the scouting and access to "gift of the overpowered healing" invocation?


The main attraction of the Moderately Armored feat is to get shield proficiency.  Remember, the difference in effective durability between having a shield and not having one is bigger than the difference between wearing light and medium armor.

Pact of the Chain and Gift of the Ever-Living Ones are, of course, awesome and a great way to build a Celestial Warlock!  Try taking it with a Jorasco Halfling and a 1-level Life Cleric dip for more healing than you'll ever know what to do with.   :Small Wink: 

The main reason the Celestial Generalist writeup is a Tomelock is because "be a ritual caster" was on Mjolnirbear's checklist.  You can totally pick other pacts.

----------


## javianhalt

> The main attraction of the Moderately Armored feat is to get shield proficiency.  Remember, the difference in effective durability between having a shield and not having one is bigger than the difference between wearing light and medium armor.


True, I forgot about shield proficiency and you can't get it otherwise without multiclass or other patrons like hexblade. 




> Pact of the Chain and Gift of the Ever-Living Ones are, of course, awesome and a great way to build a Celestial Warlock!  Try taking it with a Jorasco Halfling and a 1-level Life Cleric dip for more healing than you'll ever know what to do with.  
> 
> The main reason the Celestial Generalist writeup is a Tomelock is because "be a ritual caster" was on Mjolnirbear's checklist.  You can totally pick other pacts.


Cool. I think the main trade off is better(?) familiar + better heals on yourself (which focus more on the Scout and healer aspects) vs rituals and shillelagh (which are more oriented for melee attacks and out of combat casting)

----------


## Tekrow

Any good melee druid builds besides shapeshifting?

----------


## Maan

> Any good melee druid builds besides shapeshifting?


I'd love to see some good advice for that. Or even some insight for the good ole Moon Druid.

----------


## Wraith

> Any good melee druid builds besides shapeshifting?


Alucard made a Spore Druid/Gloom Stalker Ranger build which hits pretty hard. If you're not wildshaping, Spore Druid is probably where you want to be due to how they stack weapon and passive damage in melee, unless by "melee" you don't mind sending endless waves of summoned Velociraptors out to fight for you with Shepherd Druid.

I did a build that can be either Druid or Nature Cleric and focuses on Grappling a little while ago. It's dumb, but it works without wildshape.

Anything that abuses Shillelagh is probably the way to go - a dip into Wizard/Sorcerer for Booming Blade and/or Green-Flame Blade would be interesting as it comes online at level 2.

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## javianhalt

> True, I forgot about shield proficiency and you can't get it otherwise without multiclass or other patrons like hexblade.


I was exploring the realm of possibilities and found something interesting:
Getting a 1 level dip in cleric gives you Medium Armor and Shield proficiencies
(initially, I'm thinking Peace Domain for the free "bless effect" without concentration proficiency times per day, but this could work with any domain)

The benefits? 
- You are no longer tied to Variant Human (you can still be a variant human if you want a feat at level 1)
- You get 2 more spells from the cleric list and 2 slots to cast them as a "regular" spellcaster
- You get a few extras depending on the domain you choose

The costs? 
- You are delaying 1 level in your warlock progression obviously (including ASIs) 
- You need 13 Wisdom. It's not as bad as it sounds though, depending on the race you choose.
Examples:
Half-Elf could do something like STR 8 / DEX 13 (+1) / CON 15 (+1) / INT 9 / WIS 13 / CHA 14 (+2). You open up for elven accuracy if you want it in higher levels, and if you go Half-Drow you receive a few spells for free once per long rest.
Variant Humans could be STR 9 / DEX 13 (+1) / CON 13 (+1) / INT 9 / WIS 14 / CHA 15 and get something like Fey Touched to round Cha to 16 and get 2 additional spells with one free casting each. Or go with the +1 from race in CHA and get resilient (CON) to help with concentration checks. You have some possibilities here with half feats.

In both examples we would have the same spellcasting capabilities as the original build for CHA, their main stat (with 1 level delay). 
I assume 16 DEX is a luxury, not a requirement (I read your explanation on why you push for it, but it's not really 100% necessary IMHO). Disconsidering the extra DEX, VHuman would have 1 less HP per level (because less CON) and Half-Elf would have basically the same stats, just redistributed. (I'm not bothering with other races and stat distributions but I'm sure someone could point out other good examples)


Am I missing some crucial detail here or is this actually a viable idea?

----------


## LudicSavant

> I was exploring the realm of possibilities and found something interesting:
> Getting a 1 level dip in cleric gives you Medium Armor and Shield proficiencies
> (initially, I'm thinking Peace Domain for the free "bless effect" without concentration proficiency times per day, but this could work with any domain)
> 
> The benefits? 
> - You are no longer tied to Variant Human (you can still be a variant human if you want a feat at level 1)
> - You get 2 more spells from the cleric list and 2 slots to cast them as a "regular" spellcaster
> - You get a few extras depending on the domain you choose
> 
> ...


1-level Peace Cleric dips are highly effective.

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## DevanAvalon

Hey Ludic... got any builds that do not involve playing a God Wizard/control Wizard/any kind of *wizard* that someone with horrendous luck might be able to use? something, anything, that you can roll under a 7 consistently and still actually do SOMETHING on the battlefield?

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## Wraith

> Hey Ludic... got any builds that do not involve playing a God Wizard/control Wizard/any kind of *wizard* that someone with horrendous luck might be able to use? something, anything, that you can roll under a 7 consistently and still actually do SOMETHING on the battlefield?


Is it specifically and only Wizard that you want to avoid, or just any kind of spell-caster?

If it's the former; sounds like any Cleric, to be honest. Just do nothing but heal and buff your allies, and if you must get involved in a fight then use a persistent spell like Spirit Guardians so that you don't even have to roll to hit. The Guardian of Faith spell is even better, you don't even need to roll damage as it just hits for a set amount regardless of your luck.  :Small Smile: 

Life Cleric would be best so that your heals are consistently buffed by Disciple of Life even if you roll poorly. Forge Cleric could be an interesting alternative - go all in on heavy armour, shield and Blessing of the Forge to ensure that you're almost impossible to hit and you can ignore anything that you don't want to deal with in order to get close to your allies and aid them.

Single class Cleric would be fine, but if you want a slightly improved build then it'd perhaps be something like Fighter 2/Life Cleric X. You're hard to kill, and if you completely flub the roll to heal an ally you can Action Surge to do it again and make sure it sticks!

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## Stattick

> Is it specifically and only Wizard that you want to avoid, or just any kind of spell-caster?
> 
> If it's the former; sounds like any Cleric, to be honest. Just do nothing but heal and buff your allies, and if you must get involved in a fight then use a persistent spell like Spirit Guardians so that you don't even have to roll to hit. The Guardian of Faith spell is even better, you don't even need to roll damage as it just hits for a set amount regardless of your luck. 
> 
> Life Cleric would be best so that your heals are consistently buffed by Disciple of Life even if you roll poorly. Forge Cleric could be an interesting alternative - go all in on heavy armour, shield and Blessing of the Forge to ensure that you're almost impossible to hit and you can ignore anything that you don't want to deal with in order to get close to your allies and aid them.
> 
> Single class Cleric would be fine, but if you want a slightly improved build then it'd perhaps be something like Fighter 2/Life Cleric X. You're hard to kill, and if you completely flub the roll to heal an ally you can Action Surge to do it again and make sure it sticks!


Stack the Lucky feat, and Halfling on top of it.

----------


## LudicSavant

> Hey Ludic... got any builds that do not involve playing a God Wizard/control Wizard/any kind of *wizard* that someone with horrendous luck might be able to use? something, anything, that you can roll under a 7 consistently and still actually do SOMETHING on the battlefield?


Got lots of those!   :Small Smile: 

One thing that's really good at that is healer builds, as healing does not miss.  Neither do Walls of Fire, for that matter (they allow no saving throw besides the initial appearance).  And Spirit Guardians will put out good work even if people are taking half damage.

You might have heard from some people that healing in combat isn't great, but while this advice might be correct for, say, a Light or Tempest Cleric, an optimized Life Cleric (as some other caster builds that dip Life Cleric 1) can genuinely outheal damage.  In fact, they can heal quite literally hundreds of hit points more than many other Clerics (yes, you heard me, not "more than non-healers," but "more than _other Clerics_").

I posted some strong Warlock and Cleric healer builds in other threads, I might re-post a more complete analysis of them here...

*Edit*:  Until then, you can find the old versions here:
Warlock:  https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...3&postcount=26
Cleric:  https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...8&postcount=51

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## Hugh Mungus

I would very much appreciate your more complete analysis on the warlock and cleric builds. Every build posted by you is gold  :Small Big Grin:

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## Wraith

> Stack the Lucky feat, and Halfling on top of it.


That works, too. If all else fails; re, re and reroll again!  :Small Tongue: 

Otherwise.... something like Amechra's Skill Monkey build? In their words: By the time you're level 8 you have proficiency in virtually every skill, as well as proficiency in the tool for each of those skills, plus additional buffs from Lore Bard. You still have to roll a die so it's never guaranteed, but when everything you're doing gets a minimum of +6 or more it's hard to roll lower than a 7.

----------


## Withershins

> Anything in particular people would be interested in seeing?




I would like to request an interesting to play and optimized Swashbuckler - multiclass is fine - but I have yet to see a really unique presentation of this. 

I had a friend that was running it with a twilight cleric dip...didn't seem optimal but sorta fun.  Anyone have something like this that they have been sitting on?

I am starting a campaign at level 4 with a free feat. Haven't rolled for stats yet.  Any amazing ideas?

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## Ir0ns0ul

> Hey Ludic... got any builds that do not involve playing a God Wizard/control Wizard/any kind of *wizard* that someone with horrendous luck might be able to use? something, anything, that you can roll under a 7 consistently and still actually do SOMETHING on the battlefield?


Mark of Warding Dwarf Abjurer. I believe Ludic posted in another place, but basically leverage Arcane Ward + Armor of Agathys in masochist play style.

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## LudicSavant

> Mark of Warding Dwarf Abjurer. I believe Ludic posted in another place, but basically leverage Arcane Ward + Armor of Agathys in masochist play style.


That's a Wizard though  :Small Tongue:  :Small Big Grin: 




> I would very much appreciate your more complete analysis on the warlock and cleric builds. Every build posted by you is gold


I'll see if I can find time to post some writeups.

Until then, you can check out the old versions here:
Warlock:  https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...3&postcount=26
Cleric:  https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...8&postcount=51

----------


## Ir0ns0ul

> That's a Wizard though 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll see if I can find time to post some writeups.
> 
> Until then, you can check out the old versions here:
> Warlock:  https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...3&postcount=26
> Cleric:  https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...8&postcount=51


Hahah, I understood he wanted a Wizard, but not one dedicated to battlefield control and God Wizard style. My bad.

----------


## Evaar

Warlocks have so many opportunities for combos and synergy that it's almost hard to build one without feeling like you're leaving something on the table. The Celestial Generalist on page 1 is a great example of a build that utilizes everything available to it. Here's my attempt to accomplish something similar:

*The Ring Leader*

Race: Mark of Hospitality Halfling
Subclass: Fiend
Pact Boon: Chain
Abilities: Dex 16, Con 14, Cha 16
ASIs: Inspiring Leader @ 4, Cha 18 @ 8, Cha 20 @ 12, 

You know when the noir detective finally gets taken somewhere to meet the crime boss, and some huge burly bodyguards are standing in front of the boss's desk and when they step aside they reveal that it's just some tiny dude running the whole show? That's you. This obviously fits in with Eberron great, which is good because we're going with a Dragonmarked race option. Maybe you're part of the Boromar Clan keeping your mark secret. Or maybe you're officially part of Ghallanda and you just have some shady side projects. Maybe you aren't in Eberron and you're playing a short Al Swearengen. Or maybe you legitimately mean well, it's your character, I'm just throwing out some concept ideas here. 

Why Mark of Hospitality?
*Spoiler*
Show

There are a few reasons we're going with the Mark of Hospitality here. First, you get access to Aid. On a Warlock, that's kind of nuts. Aid lasts all day, and you get to recover the spell slots with a short rest. Buff your whole team in the morning, you're very nearly giving everyone the Tough feat for free. But also, this combos nicely with our Pact of the Chain because we can cast Aid on our familiar.

*Aid is the main reason we're here*, but we can offer some quality of life bonuses too. Goodberry can provide food if the campaign otherwise makes that difficult. Create Food and Water can keep us going in a desert. You also get a free Unseen Servant once a day, which is probably about as often as you'll want it. Plus a free Prestidigitation can keep you looking clean and sharp, and flavor your water like spiced tea or fine aged whiskey. This can be a fun way to flavor (no pun intended) your Inspiring Leader feat, serving a drink that soothes aches, clears the mind, and puts a fire in your belly.

But also, Mark of Hospitality is sort of overstuffed with features. You get the extra spells on your list, some free spells known, a 1d4 bonus to Persuasion checks, and some ribbon bonuses to brewer's tools and cook's utensils. (So you're like the crime boss who can be found in the kitchen making dinner for his people, too.) You gain all that and lose... just the "Naturally Stealthy" feature. I don't think you were going to use your action in combat to Hide that often anyway, right? So you keep Lucky and Brave, you have ideal ability score increases if your DM is afraid of Tasha's. It's just a great deal.


Why Fiend?
*Spoiler*
Show

Fiend has so much great stuff, it's really nuts when you take inventory of it all. When you look at it and compare to Archfey or Great Old One, it's like Fiend is the only one that really understands how to make Warlocks work.

Fiend can work with any of the Pacts, it doesn't reserve your bonus action like Fathomless does (which is good because we want that available), and it gives a bunch of spells that scale up nicely with higher spell slots. Command, Blindness/Deafness, Scorching Ray, and Wall of Fire all work extra well for Warlocks. Fireball isn't a slouch either when you get it. Fire Shield is handy. Weirdly you get Hallow from both Fiend and Hospitality, I dunno, take it if you want, but you probably don't want.

Command and Blindness/Deafness both add targets when upcast. Using Command to make one enemy skip a turn is handy. Using it to make five enemies skip their turns is nuts. Similar for Blindness/Deafness, Blinding four enemies with a 5th level slot can completely alter the course of a combat.

Wall of Fire scales its damage up to 6d8 with your 5th level slots, and it doesn't offer a saving throw after the initial cast. The downside is that a creature has to decide to end its turn in the damaging area unless you magically have some way to push them into it. Which you do, because you're a Warlock, so you took Repelling Blast. You get to decide what the battlefield looks like.

Scorching Ray increases the number of rays it fires with each additional spell level. Cast at 5th level, that's 6 rays. That can also mean 6 ticks of Hex or of Spirit Shroud. So if you had Spirit Shroud going and you use Scorching Ray, that's up to 12d6+12d8 in one turn. I don't always recommend using Hex on a Warlock because so often there are better uses for your Concentration, but you really can afford it with this build as your standard choice and just reserve the bigger Concentration spells for other fights.

Now Spirit Shroud could be risky to use, since you need to be within 10 feet of the target to get that extra damage. But as a Fiend Warlock, you have a steady income of temporary hit points that you get with killing blows (which you should have plenty of opportunities to get, since you have Eldritch Blast's multiple bolts to finish off enemies at low health). Note that the feature says it has to be a hostile creature, so unless you shake up that bag of rats and make them real angry at you first, you don't get temporary hit points from slaughtering random critters. On top of the temporary hit points, you get to decide what damage type is most relevant at any given time and declare that you resist it starting at level 10 with only a short rest needed to change to something else. And of course, add a d10 to a saving throw once per short rest too, can't hurt.

At 14, Hurl Through Hell is a single target banish with only an attack roll needed. Not its own attack roll - any attack roll, including Eldritch Blast or Scorching Ray. Get rid of the BBEG for an entire round and add 10d10 psychic damage just for funsies when he's back. No setup, no opportunity cost, no chance of failure.

So to summarize, you get a handful of really useful extra spells that you don't otherwise get as a Warlock. You get features that anyone would be happy to get. Everything you do requires very little setup if any, and it leans into your strengths as a Warlock abusing multi-attack mechanics with Hex or Spirit Shroud. It even gives you the resilience you'd want to make ideal use of Spirit Shroud when you really need to pump out the damage.


Why Chain?
*Spoiler*
Show

Tasha's brought a new invocation called Investment of the Chain Master. This does three things we like. First, you can use a bonus action to command your familiar to take the Attack action (which it does on its turn, no I will not be debating this further). Second, when the familiar forces a saving throw it uses your spell save DC instead of its own. Third, we can use a reaction to give it resistance to a damaging attack.

So first, this is why we wanted to make sure we usually have a bonus action available. The Imp, Sprite, and Pseudodragon have attacks that are worth our time. At low levels, the Imp does a surprising amount of damage. The Sprite and the Pseudodragon both inflict the Poisoned condition with their attacks - their save DC is low, but see the second point. This isn't top priority, but when you've got the spare bonus action this is a good way to use it. Their hit bonus isn't great, but should keep up fine in Tier 1 and Tier 2 given the low opportunity cost of using it. A Sprite uses a Short Bow so theoretically it could benefit from any magic Short Bow you might find, or any other weapon enhancements you get access to.

Second, the save DCs. Because we're using your spell save DC, those Sprite and Pseudodragon DCs are actually kind of tough to beat considering it's only costing a bonus action to force and the enemy *doesn't get to make any follow-up saves.* So if they fail once, they're poisoned for at least the rest of the fight. For the Sprite, it lasts an entire minute and if the *saving throw result is 5 or lower* they fall unconscious. For the Pseudodragon, it lasts an hour and if they *fail by 5 or more* they fall unconscious. Note the distinction. The benefit of the Sprite is that its attack has a 40 foot range and its own speed is 40, so you can pretty easily get it to safety. The Pseudodragon needs to close in to melee to attack, but it has Blindsight 10, so if you have an ally using Fog Cloud or Darkness or any other vision blocker then it can do that pretty safely; it also has a flying speed of 60 so it can dart around pretty well. Youll also have your own Blindness you can use to protect it, although then the utility of Poisoning the target is perhaps questionable. Their attack bonuses are fairly low, so at higher tiers this effect will likely drop off; remember that you can trade out invocations as you level up, you aren't married to this for your whole career.

Third, granting resistance to damage with a reaction. A Sprite by default has 2 hit points so unless it's getting attacked by another Sprite it probably won't survive any direct hit, resistance or no. But wait, scroll back up to Mark of Hospitality. At the start of the day, you're casting Aid on your familiar. Depending on your spell level, that's anywhere from 5 to 20 extra hit points for the little thing. Now suddenly it CAN survive a hit. Even worse, you're going to take Inspiring Leader and give it even more effective health. What was once trivial to kill now is a huge pain, and you aren't dedicating your resources to just toughening your buddy - your party gets to benefit from these options as well. This leaves Team Monster with few good choices; just eat the familiar's attacks and suffer the Poisoned condition all fight or throw several attacks at it while it's hiding behind cover and resisting the damage and even if you kill it... there's still the actual party to deal with.

As noted above, the attack option will likely drop off. I would probably drop Investment of the Chain Master once it starts to feel like it's missing most turns, use either the Imp or the Sprite, and do standard invisible Help action stuff at that point. I would continue to buff its health with Aid and Inspiring Leader to protect it from getting knocked over by a stiff AOE damage wind. As has been discussed many times on this forum, the familiar represents action economy even without an attack. If your DM doesn't think an owl can administer potions, they will have a harder time arguing that an imp can't. Opposable thumbs are, pardon the pun, handy. If you happen to be grouped with an Artificer, your familiar is a prime candidate to use the Spell Storing Item they create. Add a free use of Web to every encounter why not?


Why Inspiring Leader?
*Spoiler*
Show

Are we playing a crime boss or not? No but really it's here because we're already increasing the team's effective health with Aid, we're just leaning in to that even further. We obviously have the Charisma to back it up, it suits the concept, and it further fortifies our Chain Familiar. So not only are we bringing really effective debuffs and damage to the party, we're bringing substantial durability as well. They'll notice it.


Invocations
*Spoiler*
Show


We have some obvious musts. I would start with Agonizing Blast and Investment of the Chain Master (which you have to retrain to at level 3, since you don't have the pact boon at 2). 

You want Repelling Blast by the time you have Wall of Fire and probably earlier. It's just good to be able to push stuff around at will. 

I really like Whispers of the Grave. Think back to the crime boss concept. "I don't need to keep you alive to get you to talk." But for real, as I point out in that thread: you are a D&D character. You always need information, and you are going to spend a lot of time with corpses. You have the Charisma to get things to open up. You even get an extra 1d4 on Persuasion checks from Mark of Hospitality. Remember corpses only know what they knew in life, which kind of suggests they don't know they're dead. Combo this with Mask of Many Faces, "Hey you finally came around, they knocked you for a loop but we finished them off. Where was it the boss wanted us to take them now?"

Gift of the Ever-Living Ones is good but probably not necessary for you. You will be positioning to avoid damage, debuffing everything you can, and gaining temporary hit points. Voice of the Chain Master is a no-brainer. A scout is good; a disposable, invisible, tiny scout is better. And plus you can send messages through it, speaking with your own voice through the familiar. Again, crime boss stuff.

Once you get to the point where you drop Investment of the Chain Master, you may want Maddening Hex. An extra 5 damage is always going to be nice.

If you're going to be abusing the Pseudodragon's blindsight, chances are you will want Devil's Sight on your own. Although note that Eldritch Blast doesn't actually require you to see your target, unlike most attack spells. You can attack the Darkness just fine. 

I'd probably grab Eldritch Mind to save the feat on some other Concentration booster. Because we're doing the Aid/Inspiring Leader thing, we don't really need to boost our Constitution otherwise so we'll want to shore up Concentration somehow. Once you get to 16 or so, maybe you think Resilient is worth it and you can swap this one out. 

But other than Agonizing, Repelling, and Investment, it's really up to you. One of the nice parts of this build is there aren't too many Invocation/Feat taxes. Once again, though, Whispers of the Grave is really good and you should not underestimate it.


Spells
*Spoiler*
Show

As noted above, you actually do want Hex for this one. At the end of the day, this is a pure Warlock build and it does the Warlock things. We're not taking a bunch of weird dips to try to combine class features, we just want to make the best use of the ones we have. 

So, good spells for us:
Eldritch Blast, Hex, Command, Aid, Blindness/Deafness, Scorching Ray, Hold Person (potentially campaign dependent), Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Thunder Step, Tongues (both for out of combat utility and because this enables us to use Command on anything that speaks a language if we want), Sickening Radiance, Wall of Fire, Synaptic Static.

Counterspell is going to be for emergencies. Ideally, we'd rather have the Bard or Wizard doing this so we can spend our slots more efficiently. However, automatically upcasting Counterspell isn't always wasteful. 

Armor of Agathys is really good for Warlocks but we have our Fiend THPs that won't stack so... I don't know. We don't want to be in a position to get hit with melee attacks anyway. I would personally skip it here, but YMMV.

Aura of Purity from your Mark is situational for you. There may be scenarios with lots of poison damage and/or conditions, and being able to mitigate that is worth positioning yourself close enough to keep your allies in the aura. It's probably a spell I'd grab, but wouldn't anticipate to use much.

Ask your DM if you can cast Friends on a corpse if you're also casting Speak With Dead on it. I think there's some question on whether a corpse is a creature or an object, and whether casting Speak With Dead turns it back into a creature, but I think chances are a DM will let you do it. Again, this is assuming we're using Whispers of the Grave.

Good Mystic Arcanum: This is just going to be highlights that stand out, you may well decide you want something else.

6th level - Summon Fiend basically adds another martial to your party, and it casting at 6th level means we get 3 attacks out of it (whereas we cast with some inefficiency for most of these Summon spells because they get 1/2 the spell level in attacks and we don't get to decide what our spell level is as easily as other casters, Summon Fiend is locked in at a good casting level). 
Mass Suggestion is hard to argue against. _Literally._ I'm making many more dad jokes in this build than I anticipated.

7th level - Crown of Stars does what we like, more damage with low opportunity cost. It's another attack roll, with means another tick of Hex or Spirit Shroud as applicable. So if you're keeping count, that would now be theoretically 12d6+14d8+4d12 damage you could accomplish in one turn. (6 rays, 1 star, 7 ticks of spirit shroud at 5th level)
Forcecage ends fights. Trap something in the Forcecage, fill it with a Wall of Fire, go take a nap.

8th level - I don't love any options here, really. Glibness can be handy to precast, and maybe since you're an infamous crime boss by now you actually do need to evade truth-telling magic. It'll boost your Counterspells if you need to use them, but we prefer not to have to do that. Feeblemind can shut down an enemy semi-permanently, but it's just not very efficient for combat use (one action to cause a save or suck against one enemy is worse than we can do with Blindness/Deafness). Maddening Darkness covers a huge area and does good damage, plus if we took Devil's Sight we can see through it, but it damages friendlies too. Demiplane can give you a secure spot to hide all your ill-gotten gains. I'd probably do Glibness or Demiplane.

9th level - Foresight. Obviously. How many criminal masterminds are based around being able to predict what everyone will do? We make lots of attack rolls. Having advantage on all of those is great. But if you got this far, take what sounds fun. The game is just about over and you seem to have won. You can afford some dancing in the end zone.



Skills
*Spoiler*
Show


Persuasion to start, that's what makes us a leader and we get an extra 1d4 from our Mark of Hospitality.
Deception and Intimidation also make sense, we need to throw off the law and project an image that makes clear we are to be respected.
The fourth one is a freebie. Stealth will be a good choice, as we'll have the Dexterity and light armor for it. Maybe you want Insight so you can handle all the negotiating personally. Or maybe you just don't feel comfortable making a character without Perception proficiency. One thing we lack with this build is a lot of skill options.



Weaknesses
*Spoiler*
Show


We have the ability to stay at range most of the time, plus Aid, plus Inspiring Leader, plus refilling THP from Fiend, plus resistance to whatever damage type we want starting at 10. But once you've gone through all that, you don't have great AC or saves. If the enemy really focuses their attention on you and you don't take steps to mitigate that, it'll catch up to you. So... don't let them. Or rather, don't let your party let them.

Our skills are a little lacking, but there's not much to do about that. This isn't a skill monkey build. Let someone else handle that. You're here to supervise.

While you have Advantage to saving throws against being frightened, you are otherwise just as vulnerable to conditions as anyone else. You do get the +1d10 to a save per short rest if you really want to avoid something, and you can continue to fire off Eldritch Blasts while you're blind, but again, you want to take advantage of battlefield positioning to make yourself a target as rarely as possible. Repelling Blast can help with that to some extent. You're Small. Duck behind stuff.


Notes
*Spoiler*
Show

Really you can take Inspiring Leader wherever you'd like, I just prefer to take it early so it'll be active when the familiar actually presents a threat. But I understand that delaying Charisma bumps hurts.

Again, this isn't a super fancy build that utilizes a lot of multiclassing. I think that's usually a misguided instinct. Some dips are worth it, but I feel a lot of the time builds are better off just focusing on what it is they do well. If you pick carefully, you may notice that covers a lot of ground. Instead what I'm trying to do here is show how all of this adds up into a build that doesn't get in its own way with clogged bonus actions or competing uses for Concentration. It does what it sets out to do (which is a lot) and relies on its party to cover the rest.

There are all kinds of ways you can flavor the Mark of Hospitality if you aren't in Eberron. Call it a family knack for hearth and harvest magic. Maybe your family has a legend they tell about being directly descended from Sheela Peryroyl, or Cyrrollalee, or even Yondalla herself. Maybe it's unique to you. Maybe it's even part of the Pact, and your desire to become a crime boss includes the support options you get here.

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## Withershins

Apologies for the spam, I just recently discovered this sanctuary of awesomeness and it is getting juices flowing...if they are stupid juices or not remains to be seen.

I was looking at the Wood Elf Battlemaster Fighter build and wondering if a 1 level Peace Clerice dip for:

emboldening bond + Bless (yay!! something useful for concentration) + healing word (battle res)

Would make for a useful addition to this build, or just slow it down from what it is trying to do?

Thoughts?

Thanks everyone  :D

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## Tekrow

What would be the best way to build something similar to the Blood Hunter(Or something along those lines of a Witch Hunter/Witcher/Demon Hunter) using official material?

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## Citadel97501

> What would be the best way to build something similar to the Blood Hunter(Or something along those lines of a Witch Hunter/Witcher/Demon Hunter) using official material?


Gloomstalker Ranger, is the class I think of when I think about this but adding in some minor arcane magic would be helpful for a Witcher perhaps Gloomstalker Ranger + Warlock or Gloomstalker Ranger + Alchemist Artificer?  I have nothing good to say about the Alchemist, sadly it is ruined by a single stupid sentence (ie takes an action to drink your potions...)

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## Wraith

> Apologies for the spam, I just recently discovered this sanctuary of awesomeness and it is getting juices flowing...if they are stupid juices or not remains to be seen.
> 
> I was looking at the Wood Elf Battlemaster Fighter build and wondering if a 1 level Peace Clerice dip for:
> 
> emboldening bond + Bless (yay!! something useful for concentration) + healing word (battle res)
> 
> Would make for a useful addition to this build, or just slow it down from what it is trying to do?
> 
> Thoughts?
> ...


1 level of Cleric is rarely a horrible idea for quite a lot of builds. Ultimately you're trading Extra Attack (x3) at level 20, for Level 1 Cleric spells and cantrips, plus the ability to 'Bless' up to [Prof] people (twice with a spell) for 1-19 levels. That feels like it's worthwhile, especially in a low-level game where a d4 bonus can be a big deal.
Could always swap Duellist for Two-Weapon Fighting I suppose, and if you need it then you have the option to keep _Shield of Faith_ up instead of taking a shield? That way you're making extra attacks even earlier than Fighter 5 and if you should play up to level 20 then you're not missing Extra Attack (x3) so much.

As for slowing the build down? +2d4 to all of your rolls, and those of your party, feels like it's a decent substitute for your manoeuvres for all of 1 level. Again, depends on your campaign and how fast/how far you expect to level up but worst case scenario you can go Fighter 3/Cleric 1 to bring them online ASAP and you're good to go.

I have to say, Peace Cleric plus "brutally stab someone as many times as possible in 6 seconds" might be thematically challenging to put together, but... I've seen worse!  :Small Big Grin:

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## LudicSavant

> Apologies for the spam, I just recently discovered this sanctuary of awesomeness and it is getting juices flowing...if they are stupid juices or not remains to be seen.
> 
> I was looking at the Wood Elf Battlemaster Fighter build and wondering if a 1 level Peace Clerice dip for:
> 
> emboldening bond + Bless (yay!! something useful for concentration) + healing word (battle res)
> 
> Would make for a useful addition to this build, or just slow it down from what it is trying to do?
> 
> Thoughts?
> ...


I concur with Wraith -- 1 level of Peace Cleric is a competitive dip for an awful lot of things.  In fact, its stealthiness (and ability to grant the party stealthiness) would make it easier to pre-cast Peace Cleric stuff.  




> I have to say, Peace Cleric plus "brutally stab someone as many times as possible in 6 seconds" might be thematically challenging to put together, but... I've seen worse!


A thematic challenge you say?  Sounds like fun.  Here's a way to handle the thematics! 

They believe in the philosophy of nuclear peace.  Essentially, a nuclear peace results if the costs of war are unacceptably high for both sides.

"You wish to surrender, for war is terrible, especially as we practice."

Basically, such a Peace Cleric would argue that pacifism fails to actually prevent war -- the invaders will still invade, even if you choose not to fight (they would even be happy to cite tragic historical examples of exactly this).  They say that in order for true, lasting peace to be attained, there must be strong deterrents.  Folk sleep peaceably in their beds because of the rough men on the wall and all that.

Doesn't even contradict the existing Peace Cleric flavor text.  Seriously, check it.




> The balm of peace thrives at the heart of healthy communities, between friendly nations, and in the souls of the kindhearted. The gods of peace inspire people of all sorts *to resolve conflict* and to *stand up against those forces that try to prevent peace from flourishing.* See the Peace Deities table for a list of some of the gods associated with this domain.
> 
> Clerics of the Peace Domain preside over the signing of treaties, and they are often asked to arbitrate in disputes. These clerics' blessings draw people together and help them shoulder one another's burdens, and the clerics' magic aids those who are driven to *fight for the way of peace.*



They protect their allies like so.

Their order is not one that stays neutral as the war rages.  They are the order of Hextoran peacekeepers who end the war, oversee the signing of the treaties, and discourage future wars because _you wouldn't dare_.

In Eberron, they would cite that the Last War ended with a unifying peace treaty because _everyone was afraid of the Mourning_ (basically a magical equivalent of a nuclear weapon in terms of the devastation wrought).

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## Tekrow

> I concur with Wraith -- 1 level of Peace Cleric is a competitive dip for an awful lot of things.  In fact, its stealthiness (and ability to grant the party stealthiness) would make it easier to pre-cast Peace Cleric stuff.  
> 
> 
> 
> A thematic challenge you say?  Sounds like fun.  Here's a way to handle the thematics! 
> 
> They believe in the philosophy of nuclear peace.  Essentially, a nuclear peace results if the costs of war are unacceptably high for both sides.
> 
> "You wish to surrender, for war is terrible, especially as we practice."
> ...


Hey Ludic, what would you think would be the best way to build a Blood Hunter using official material, or at least something similar? (Like a Witcher or a Witch Hunter?

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## LudicSavant

> I would very much appreciate your more complete analysis on the warlock and cleric builds. Every build posted by you is gold


Here we have a Chain Pact Warlock that is very much a powerhouse generalist.  They are first and foremost an extremely capable healer, but they are _also_ durable enough to shrug off most damage, _and_ are a boss-shredding single target damage dealer, _and_ a swarm-killing AoE damage dealer, _and_ a battlefield controller who pinballs people wherever they like, _and_ an excellent scout, _and_ a ranged kiter, _and_ you get the idea.

And theyre better at some of their secondary schticks than some PCs are at their main.  You could legitimately make a party out of 4 of this character and they would synergize with each other and create a very strong, well-rounded party (though not perfectly rounded  it still has a poor Int save, for example).

Like all my builds, it performs from level 1 to level 20, and is prepared to last through long and deadly adventuring days.

*Build 17: The Celestial Giftlock (Or The Ever-Living Generalist)*

*Mark of Healing Halfling Life Cleric 1 / Celestial Chainlock 19*  (Note:  Doesn't need to be an Eberron halfling to work, see "Variants/Notes")
*Starting Stats:*  17 Cha / 14 Con / 14 Dex / 13 Wis / 9 Str / 8 Int
*ASIs:*  Fey-Touched (Gift of Alacrity, +1 Cha) @5, +2 Cha @9, Resilient (+1 Con) @13, Metamagic Adept (Subtle, Quicken)@17, Skill Expert (+1 Con) @20
*Invocations:*  Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Gift of the Ever-Living Ones, Devils Sight, Eldritch Mind, Grasp of Hadar, Lance of Lethargy, Witch Sight
*Cantrips (x9):*  Light, Eldritch Blast, Creature Bonfire, Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Guidance, Thaumaturgy, Mending, Sacred Flame
*Sample Spells Known (Warlock):*  Hex, Synaptic Static, Darkness, Wall of Fire, Greater Restoration, Mass Healing Word, Aura of Vitality, Hellish Rebuke, Counterspell, Spirit Shroud, Thunder Step, Dispel Magic, Revivify, Banishment, Cloud of Daggers
*Sample Mystic Arcanums:*  Summon Fiend, Forcecage, Maddening Darkness, Foresight  
*Spells (Other):*  1x Misty Step, 1x Gift of Alacrity, 1x Lesser Restoration, 1x Cure Wounds, 2x Cleric L1 slots

*Resources Aplenty*
The Life Cleric dip means we can wear armor and shield, so that we are not squish.  It also means we supercharge our healing with Disciple of Life (seriously, that bonus adds up a lot) and hands us 4 extra spells prepared, and 2 level 1 spell slots we can spend on Bless or Healing Word or PFG&E or Shield of Faith or Sanctuary or something, or on level 1 Warlock spells (like Hex or Hellish Rebuke).  Those spells stay relevant at all levels for you.

Being a Jorasco Halfling gives us key additions to our spell list (Mass Healing Word and Aura of Vitality) which make a Life Giftlocks healing even more bonkers.  It even gives us a racial cast of Lesser Restoration and Cure Wounds (which actually heals a decent chunk for us because of Life Cleric + Gift).

Being a Halfling also gives you Lucky, which improves every single d20 roll we ever make (which is quite a lot, since were an Eldritch Blaster).  And Advantage against Fear.

We also get a level 1 and 2 cast from Fey-Touched.

So we effectively have a whopping 8 cantrips known, 4x level 1 slots, 2x level 2 slots, 1+Warlock level Healing Light charges, 1/short rest Celestial Resilience, Invocations, and eventually 1/long rest Searing Vengeance and 2 Sorcery points.  ON TOP OF all our Warlock slots and Mystic Arcanums.  And a lot of our tools have the duration to last multiple encounters.  Abundant resources to spread throughout a long adventuring day.

Oh yeah, and since were talking about Warlock resources, theres always the 1-hour ritual.  For example, you can cast Hex in the morning (on a bug or something), short rest, get the slot back, and still have the spell going (yes, you can Concentrate through a short rest).  And if you lose Concentration?  You can re-cast Hex using a level 1 Cleric slot instead of a full Warlock slot, if you like.

Even though you have a lot of resources, don't just mindlessly spam them -- it often only takes one well-chosen mid-high level spell to swing a fight, supplemented by your low level slots, invocations, etc.  And many of your spells have a long enough duration to last multiple encounters!

*Ever-Living Healing and Durability*


Gift of the Ever-Living Ones is kind of bonkers.  It maximizes all healing on you.  Healing potions fed by your familiar?  Maximized.  Short rest hit dice?  Maximized.  Spells cast by other PCs?  Maximized.  Your own healing spells and features?  Better believe thats maximized!

The end result is that, combined with our abundant pool of healing abilities, we basically can face-tank more raw damage than a Barbarian.

In fact, we might be able to do that _before we even spend any of our Warlock slots on healing or defense._

Seriously, check this out.  Lets say we have a level 12 Barbarian with 14 Con, and therefore 113 hit points.  You have 87 hit points (so youre just 26 behind).  It would be lets say optimistic to think that the Barbarian can have their Rage mitigate every single point of damage incoming to them, but if it does, then they have ~226 effective hp (so youre just 139 hp behind to start).

Just spending your racial and Cleric slots on Cure Wounds is worth 36 hp. And Id say Cure Wounds is a _minimum_ valuation of those 2 Cleric slots.

Then youve got your racial Lesser Restoration, whatever you evaluate that at (its a lovely seat belt spell).

Then youve got 72 hp of Healing Light, which can be doled out as bonus actions.

Then youve got the excellent Celestial Resilience for 16 temp hp per rest, plus handing out 11 hp to each party member (including your familiar).  If theres 2 short rests, thats worth 48 hp to you alone, plus 33 hp to everyone.

Even just counting the health for you (ignoring the healthy chunk we give to the party and minions) were already at 36+72+48= 156 hit points, already exceeding what the Barbarian is gaining over your base hp.  And we havent even counted your Warlock slots, or Arcanums or maximized potions or hit dice, or ally healing, or anything (all of which are boosted by Gift).

So yeah, you are already one very tough customer, without spending any of your Warlock slots or Arcanums.

And then you realize that you can just restore 190 hit points with a 5th level slot.  Or do over 100 total AoE healing as a bonus action.  Or burst heal yourself for 78 (or more, if your familiar heals you too) in a turn.  (See the section on spells for more details)

Not to mention that you get Searing Vengeance later and its just fantastic, cutting off even the vulnerability of super high burst damage all at once.  Also, your Concentration will be tough to break thanks to Eldritch Mind and Resilient.  Aaand you have a ton of really potent defensive abilities like Counterspell, Darkness+Devils Sight, Repelling Blast, Synaptic Static, Bless, Sanctuary, Misty Step, Thunder Step, and eventually even Foresight.  You have an answer to most things the game can throw at you.

The Ever-Living Ones, indeed.

*Chain Familiars Are Great*
Pact of the Chain is amazing, and not just because it gives you access to Gift of the Ever-Living Ones.  It hands you a bona-fide super familiar.

For example, an Imp is immune to two of the most common damage types (Poison and Fire), and Resistant to Cold and Nonmagical Weapons!  Add onto that Magic Resistance, at-will Invisibility, Devils Sight, 10 base hp, and the 10-15 extra temp hp itll be getting from Celestial Resilience, and youve got a familiar that isnt going to disappear at the first sign of trouble.  In fact, it can often eat 20-50 points of damage, depending on damage type and your level.  And if it takes that, you can just resummon it.

As an always-invisible flying creature with Stealth proficiency, it makes an excellent scout.  You can even throw Guidance on it to make it even stealthier.  And the better you are at scouting, the better you (and your party) are at pre-casting buffs and such.

*Offense*
Okay, so you have more healing than you know what to do with.  So how about that offense?

First thing, we have a stellar initiative.  We have Gift of Alacrity from Fey-Touched, and can spam Guidance any time were not Concentrating on something else, and eventually get Foresight. This means that your initiative ranges from +2+1d8+Halfling Lucky (when your Concentration is taken and you dont have many levels under your belt) to +2+1d8+1d4+Halfling Lucky+Foresight Advantage.  And of course, going first means more actions,which means more damage.

Were also much more likely to be able to pre-cast spells (improving our action economy, and therefore damage) thanks to our scouting utility.

Your go-to is, of course, Eldritch Blast.  Your resourceless output is better than usual not only because you tricked out your EB with Invocations, but also because you have Halfling luck (improving all your d20 rolls) and a super-familiar, which at a minimum can be spamming Help to improve your (or a teammates) DPR.

This makes your resourceless output already competitive with martials, before you even start casting spells.  And your spells are big damage boosts (slightly bigger thanks to your level 6 ability).

Also, your familiar can also do things like lay down caltrops, ball bearings, or oil squares to combo with your Repelling Blast knockback and such.  With Repelling Blast, Agonizing Blast, Lance of Lethargy, and your familiar laying down obstacles, the positioning power of your EB can be as important as its damage.  Later on, Witch Sight even means you get to ignore things like Invisibility and Blur when Eldritch Blasting your foes.

Searing Vengeance is yet another ability that combines offense and defense, giving you an action-economy free 2d8+5 (14) auto-hitting damage in a wide, no-friendly-fire AoE, half your health in healing, and a no-save Blind status for enemies.  And pops you right up off the death gate, so its doing this on top of an entire turn you would have otherwise have lost.  Did I mention that this doesnt even take an action? 

Later on, Metamagic Adept will give you a shot of Quicken Spell once a day, which means you can do things like combo Wall of Fire or Cloud of Daggers with Eldritch Blast on the same round.  

But the biggest guns are of course your spells.  Darkness + Devils Sight.  Wall of Fire + Eldritch Blast + movement Invocations.  Spirit Shroud.  Hellish Rebuke.  Synaptic Static (which is also a potent defense, too).  Summon Fiend.  Forcecage. Maddening Darkness.  Foresight.  Youve got something for every kind of foe.

*Mobility and Control*
With Misty Step, Thunder Step, initiative boosts out the wazoo, and all the Eldritch Blast movement invocations, you have a great deal of ability to position yourself and reposition your enemy, and the hazard spells to take advantage of it (and further control space).  You also have a great deal of ability to control vision with Darkness, Maddening Darkness, and Wall of Fire.  And you can screw over enemy attack rolls with Synaptic Static, or trap them with Forcecage or Banishment.  You can also completely hose ability checks with Hex and/or Synaptic Static.

Note that Repelling Blast is always optional  thanks to the can and up to lines in the ability, you have exacting control over how much it knocks people back and can place them in exactly the square you want to.

*Notable Spells:*
Im just gonna talk about what these do in an L5 slot since thats how youll be casting them for more levels than not.  But theyre at least as good in their normal slot level, too.

*Wall of Fire:*  This is an exclusive spell on the Celestial list, and its awesome for smart Warlock players.  Why?  Because this spell offers no saving throw on the enters and ends turn clauses, which means its a boss shredder (and swarm shredder, and vision blocker).

Basically, Wall of Fire doesnt care about Magic Resistance, Legendary Resistance, any of that.  And you can easily ping-pong people through it using Repelling Blast, causing it to tick multiple times per round.

And from a level 5 slot, it does 27 average auto-hitting damage *per tick* (plus an extra 5 on the first one, from your level 6 feature).   No save, nothing.  Thats about about as much damage as a failed save against a Fireball every tick!  Basically, for you, its a combination Legendary boss shredder, mook control, and vision blocker that works against things that can see through Darkness.

Vision blockers are incredibly potent tools in the right situations, even if you cant see through them!  For example, theyll stop Counterspells (just cast it from out of line sight, then everyone in the party is good to go).  It also means creatures cant Misty Step through it like a Wall of Force.

The only limitation, really. is that its fire-type damage, so you wont be able to use it against some enemies.  But thats fine, you have other spells for them, and it actually helps that your Imp can fly through it unharmed.

As always with hazard spells, they get even better if your party is in on the action, so let em know about the opportunity to take Telekinetic (the feat) or grappling or Thunderwave or anything that restricts or causes movement.

(If you want a non-fire type hazard, Cloud of Daggers has no save and upcasts pretty well, dealing 25 no-save damage per tick that will shred Fiends and Red Dragons and the like.  Sickening Radiance is good too, but it offers an all-or-nothing Con save, so its less of a boss shredder).

*Synaptic Static* is like a Fireball, except with a much better damage type, targeting a better save (Int), and coming with a great, no-Concentration status effect attached that gives -1d6 to attack rolls and ability checks for all enemies.  Its even particularly well-suited because the kinds of enemies who are attack reliant are extra likely to have poor Int saves.  

That penalty to attack rolls is pretty hefty, its almost like a +3.5 AC Shield for all your allies.  The penalty to ability checks will also totally affect stuff like counterspells, dispels, grapples, whatever.  And you can hose ability checks even further with Hex if you want.

Synaptic Static makes you very good at dealing with large groups of foes.  Not only is it good to have solid AoE damage against such foes, they also tend to have their damage dramatically reduced by Disadvantage to hit (like from Darkness) and a -1d6 to hit, reducing their damage output per mook to virtually zero.

*Darkness* is useful to give yourself Advantage on all attacks with Devils Sight, as well as grant enemies Disadvantage as well as protect yourself and your party from stuff that needs to see the target (like beholder rays).  And it should be effortless to keep it from getting in the way of your party thanks to your range, as well as all of the techniques I described in the Shadow Monk post (seriously, if Darkness is a burden to your party rather than a boon, youre almost certainly doing something horribly wrong and should go read that post.  Fog Cloud is a great spell, and Darkness is significantly _easier_ to avoid interfering with your own party than Fog Cloud is).

*Spirit Shroud:*  +2d8 Radiant damage on all your many Eldritch Blast rays.  Its limited to short range, but thats okay  sometimes you just need to get a buff up as a bonus action and burn something down.  Even comes with a bit of a control effect, and a situationally potent ability to disable healing (such as for assassinating a rival Giftlock that has more healing than they know what to do with).

This will also give you an extra +5 damage on the first hit thanks to Radiant Soul, since it deals Radiant damage.

*Cure Wounds:*  For most characters, this spell sucks.  But since you can combine it with Disciple of Life, Gift of the Ever-Living Ones, and Healing Light in the same turn, its a very respectable burst heal.

With your features, Cure Wounds 5 heals 5d8+8 (30.5, or a whopping 48 on yourself), and you can toss in another 5d6 (17.5, or 30 on yourself) from Healing Light.  Thats a 78 hit point burst heal.  Thats better than the Heal spell.

Like you can very easily go from on the ground with 0 hit points to full health in a round.  Even at high levels (because of Searing Vengeance).

(Note:  If you know Cure Wounds as a Warlock spell, it heals an additional 4 hit points, whether its cast with your Warlock or Cleric slots).

*Thunder Step* is like a shorter range (still 90 feet) Dimension Door that does about as much AoE damage as Synaptic Static on the side (albeit in a smaller area).  Great for rescuing an ally, dealing AoE damage, and kiting at the same time.

*Mass Healing Word:*  Disciple of Life makes this heal 3d4+12 (19.5, or 24 on yourself) per target as a bonus action (so, if you have a 5 person party plus your familiar, thats 121.5 hp total).  Its like undoing a whole-party Fireball as a bonus action.

*Hellish Rebuke:*  Synergizes with your level 6 feature for 6d10+5 (38)/save for half damage, which is quite good for a Reaction.  Way more than, say, a Battle Master Riposte.  Also much easier to trigger  it activates on any instance of damage.  Doesnt have to be an attack or anything, you can Rebuke a Fireball or whatever.

The thing that makes this spell good is its Action economy.  Basically, if youre using a spell that takes an Action, its effectively worth (whatever it does) MINUS whatever your Invocation-tricked-out Eldritch Blast would have done with that Action.  Whereas Hellish Rebuke is effectively worth (whatever it does) PLUS your Invocation-tricked-out Eldritch Blast.

Thanks to Radiant Soul, Hellish Rebuke is also a good use of your level 1 Cleric slots, dishing out 2d10+5 (16.5) / save for half as a Reaction, and getting to use your Charisma save DC (per PHB pg164).

*Aura of Vitality*:  From an L5 slot, this heals a Giftlock for 19 hit points per round (for up to 190 hit points), which is a bloody lot.  It heals non-Giftlock targets for 14 per round (for up to 140 hit points) which is also a lot.

*Revivify*:  It cures the dead status effect.  It also technically heals 1 hp, so it benefits from Disciple of Life to pop someone up to 8.  In fact, you can Revivify and use Healing Light in the same turn, so that your newly resurrected doesn't just go back down in 1 hit. 

*Mystic Arcanums:*
The key when choosing Mystic Arcanums is to make sure youre choosing one that youll want to cast every day.  After all, you will use that exact same spell, every day.

*Summon Fiend* can outdamage some entire martial characters, for an entire hour, _without even taking up your Actions_.  They also have Devils Sight, which means that if someone else in the party casts Darkness or Maddening Darkness, they have Advantage on all their attacks, and you have Advantage on all your Eldritch Blasts.  They're even harder to kill thanks to you casting supercharged Mass Healing Words and the like anyways.

*Forcecage* just straight up isolates an area, no save.  Heck, even if they can teleport, they need to make a saving throw to exit!

Doesnt even take Concentration.  You can lock someone inside a hazard or something and just watch em melt.

*Maddening Darkness* is a massive (120-foot diameter) AoE of repeating Psychic damage and Darkness that you can see through.  

A fun trick is that if someone in the party is using Mind Blank (often a good idea at high levels), they can make a party member immune to Maddening Darknesss psychic damage, and walk through it like its Sculpted.  Also, an ally who wants to see inside it in a pinch can use an upcast Continual Flame item (if youve got a Wizard or Cleric or something in your party).

*Foresight:*  Advantage on all the things (attacks, initiative, saves, etc), no Concentration, 8 hours.  Need I say more?

*Progression*
*Early levels:*  It doesnt matter to your long term progression whether you begin life as a Cleric or a Warlock, so you might as well take Warlock as your level 1 so you can immediately start utilizing your Charisma.  Then take your Cleric dip at 2, then Warlock from then on out.

Youll want spells like Bless, Hex, Hellish Rebuke and Armor of Agathys (you can switch it out later when you get Celestial Resilience, if you want).

*Level 6:*  We already have a 1x Lesser Restoration, 1x racial Cure Wounds, 1x Gift of Alacrity, 1x Misty Step, 2 Warlock slots per short rest, 2 Cleric slots per day, Gift of the Ever-Living Ones, Agonizing Blast, and Repelling Blast.

Its tough for you to run out of resources already.  You can use the 1 hour ritual to get your Hex up, then replace it with Cleric slots if it goes down.  Or you can use those Cleric slots for efficient Radiant-Soul-enhanced Hellish Rebukes.  Or Bless.  And youve got 6 level 3 Warlock slots on top of that in 2-short-rest adventuring day.

Hypnotic Pattern is a good level 3 spell  I swapped it out as I leveled up further.

*Tier 3 and 4:* Heres me running a whole challenge dungeon created by MaxWilson with 4 Giftlocks at level 12.  Should give a decent idea of how I play em.

By now, all of your Warlock spells are 5th level and work as described in the notable spells section.  The rest of your progression is mostly picking up your lovely high level spells (Mystic Arcanums) and invocations that enhance what you already do.  Metamagic Adept gives us an extra bit of burst from Quicken, or the ability to get that crucial spell out through Silence or Counterspell.  Skill Expert caps us off with a little extra burst-resistance for the final boss and an extra +6 bonus in whatever skill you fancy (say, Persuasion for leading your kingdom at Level 20).

You could easily swap these last 2 feats out for whatever  Spell Sniper, Alert, Lucky, Warcaster, that sort of thing.  See Variants/Notes.

*Variants/Notes:*
 This build can already tank and protect teammates.  But want to make this even more frontliner-y?  Take Warcaster at some point in your progression (trading out the Eldritch Mind invocation for something else when you do so), and hit people with Eldritch Blast when they leave your reach for a devastating OA.  After your first hit of Repelling Blast, the other rays wont have Disadvantage.  And you might not even have Disadvantage in the first place if youre using Darkness or Shadow of Moil, or receiving Help from a familiar. Remember how I laid out just how great your healing was before you even count your spell slots?  Well, that means this build totally works even if youre not a Jorasco Halfling.  The main thing the race is doing is adding Aura of Vitality and Mass Healing Word to your list.  *So feel free to pick any good Warlock race!* Fey-Touched can be swapped out for any other Cha-based half-feat (like Telepathic if you want to make GOOlocks jealous, or Elven Accuracy if you changed your race).  Any of the other feats can be swapped out for other nice things, like Spell Sniper, Alert, Lucky, Warcaster, Ritual Caster, or (if you changed your race) Aberrant Dragonmark or Flames of Phlegethos. You have a lot of flexibility in which invocations you take, Id say the only core ones are Agonizing, Repelling, and Gift of the Ever-Living Ones.  Theres a whole lot of good Invocations out there (like Mask of Many Faces, Whispers of the Grave, or Maddening Hex), but Id recommend categorically avoiding all of the Invocations that give a 1/day spell _that use a Warlock spell slot_ (like Mire the Mind).  The ones that give a 1/day spell that dont use a Warlock slot (like Undying Servitude and Tricksters Escape) are fine.  Id also be cautious of (but not necessarily write off) any Invocations that compete for your Concentration. For Metamagic Adept, Transmute Spell, Subtle Spell, Quicken Spell, and Empower Spell are all useful choices.  (If you take Transmute Spell, the main use is to turn Wall of Fire into a fiend-killing damage type). Likewise, you dont need to stick to this exact spell list; you should feel free to tailor it based on your party composition and the like. I havent messed around with the new Investment of the Chain Master invocation much yet.  Im a little wary of low attack bonuses, but theres probably some cool stuff you can do with it. As always with caster builds, you can twink out with Ravnica backgrounds if you want to.  Orzhov is particularly good here since Spirit Guardians combos exceptionally well with your repositioning Eldritch Blasts, and gets bonus damage on the first hit from Radiant Soul.

----------


## Chaos Jackal

I've already seen the build "in action" in the spell damage thread. Goes to show what capabilities even what is often considered to be a poor man's full caster can have. Truly self-sustaining.

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## javianhalt

> Here we have a Chain Pact Warlock that is very much a powerhouse generalist.  They are first and foremost an extremely capable healer, but they are _also_ durable enough to shrug off most damage, _and_ are a boss-shredding single target damage dealer, _and_ a swarm-killing AoE damage dealer, _and_ a battlefield controller who pinballs people wherever they like, _and_ an excellent scout, _and_ a ranged kiter, _and_ you get the idea.
> 
> And theyre better at some of their secondary schticks than some PCs are at their main.  You could legitimately make a party out of 4 of this character and they would synergize with each other and create a very strong, well-rounded party (though not perfectly rounded  it still has a poor Int save, for example).
> 
> Like all my builds, it performs from level 1 to level 20, and is prepared to last through long and deadly adventuring days.


I think it's only predictable to compare this one with the celestial generalist OG build. 

Do you think it's fair to do a Pros and Cons between them? For example, this one gets absurd healing but don't have the same melee capabilities of the page 1 build (since he does not have shillelagh)

EDIT: Also, as I suggested before (and you seem to agree that it is generally a good idea) the dip in *Peace Cleric* seems very tempting for me, even replacing the Life Cleric in this case. If _Disciple of Life_ worked with _Healing Light_, life Cleric would be more appealing IMHO.

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## Evaar

> *Build 17: The Celestial Giftlock (Or The Ever-Living Generalist)*


Thanks for linking to my Whispers of the Grave thread!

Great build. Some similarity to my Ring Leader build posted above, but wayyy more self sufficient and a better generalist. Mine was intended to leave more gaps for a team to fill and instead specialize more as a damage/debuffer. 

I concur with all your spell selections. Cloud of Daggers is a good call out; I like that spell a lot but have trouble making it work. Repelling Blast is a good way to do that. 

Im still confident Investment will be worthwhile in tiers 1 and 2, but I havent had a chance to really get hands on with it yet. Its looking like our next campaign will be Avernus so Im hesitant to try it for that. Id love to hear from anyone who has gotten to try it though.

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## Withershins

> Next will probably be a frontliner Bard or a Warlock archer.  Or something from Tasha's depending on how long I take



Both of these build options sound AMAZING, and I would love to read them if you ever get the chance to do the work-up on them  :D

Thanks for what you do!!

Wither

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## NCat

Another Build that could be fun to play is what ill call the 'One Punch'

Essentially, the main idea of the build is to stack a large number of damage dice onto a single punch/attack, from things like smites and such. 

So, the build

the main part of the build is 11 levels in (undead) warlock, and 2 levels in paladin. So this build essentially 'comes (fully) online' at level 13. Oh, and the race is goblin. 


In essence, you are mostly a normal warlock (with better armor and a tiny bit of healing), but, when you find that one guy that just deserves to get hit, you walk up to them and then:

1. Bonus action cast searing smite at 5th level
2. Cast booming blade, making a melee attack against your foe
3. Apply a max level divine smite
4. Apply a max level eldritch smite
5. Fury of the small
6. Add an extra d8 from being an undead warlock


So, what kind of damage is this?
17d8 + 5d6 + 18 (Assuming a str/dex of 20)

And this is mostly done with little cost, and essentially is just a fun add on to a warlock build


And, outside of punching people, you are still an effective character, since you are when you arent blowing all your spell slots on a Nova attack, you can still deal pretty good damage with eldritch blast (2d10+5 if you took agonizing blast, since you're an undead warlock and can add an extra damage die), and are quite nimble too with goblins bonus action disengage / hide



After level 13, progressing is really up to you. If you wanted to continue developing your 1 punch combat style, id recommed taking the next level of paladin, either for vengeance's channel divinity, which grants advantage for a minute, if you want to further hone your eldritch blast, or conquest, if you'd prefer a +10 to hit on that punch. Level 12 in warlock is also alright for the ASI, which isnt neccessary but is a nice touch. 

Levels in bard(whispers) is nice since you can get some more spell slots and such, aswell as the psychics blades for even more damage (2d6 at level 3, 3d6 at level 5). Rogue assassin features similiar damage, at the cost of not being a spell caster and requiring stealth to perform (aswell as doubling up on features you already have from goblin), but the assassinate feature for a free crit on suprised creatures is pretty cool, even if it does come at the cost of being more difficult to pull off in a fight. Or one could go sorcerer rest to get the loveliness of quickened casting


Is it much more effective than a normal warlock?
Probably not

Does this idea amuse me?
Yes

Im not good at formatting, so if someone wants to build off of this and make their own version of this go ahead.

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## Maan

> Both of these build options sound AMAZING, and I would love to read them if you ever get the chance to do the work-up on them  :D


I'd love to see a Bard Frontliner build; never really thought about it and I'm curious!

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## KyleG

> I'd love to see a Bard Frontliner build; never really thought about it and I'm curious!


I have this image of a bikie, white singlet underneath, tough guy but he's a bard. Perhaps a drummer or something hard rock or metal.

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## Stattick

> I have this image of a bikie, white singlet underneath, tough guy but he's a bard. Perhaps a drummer or something hard rock or metal.


Bard. Soldier background. He was the guy with the drum, next to a formation, drumming away to keep everyone in the column in-step. In battle, his job was to drum the commands coming from the commanders in the rear: attack, retreat, etc. His only weapons were the drumsticks. And he got his start as a drummer long before he ever grew his first whisker. He might only be sixteen, but his eyes are hard as steel. He doesn't flinch in combat. And he's seen a thousand men die.

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## Corran

> Why Fiend?
> Fiend has so much great stuff, it's really nuts when you take inventory of it all. When you look at it and compare to Archfey or Great Old One, it's like Fiend is the only one that really understands how to make Warlocks work.


*Spoiler: In defense of the archfey patron*
Show

This is not very relevant to your build, but I get the exact same impression when I am looking at the archfey warlock instead. (Typical) Warlocks are very squishy and can really suffer when engaged by the enemy. And unlike squishy characters of another class, they dont have the option to mitigate this drawback by dipping in hexblade (which is the usual practice). They do have options to make up for this drawback on their own, and these options are always worth considering and often worth explroring, but they dont come as cheaply as it would be for say, a lore bard (another very squishy chassis) who can dip a (few) level(s) in hexblade to solve several issues at the same time (survivability included). For warlocks it's a little trickier and/or more constly to deal with this, which is why I am particularly fond of the archfey's mechanics as I view them somewhat essential (but not enough on their own) to all ranged warlocks who aim for a single class progression. The ideal minimum for me, would be having the 2 relevant archfey features along with a free (as in it wont consume any of my precious slots) per rest teleport (most likely coming from race), and after that I can just have the option to further optimize if needed by picking up stuff like alert, tomb of Levistus, etc.

That's not to say that I think you overlooked the importance of positioning, because you clearly didn't (you mention allies helping out, you mention positioning and cover while taking into account for the character's small size). It's just a playstyle difference, which makes me think that the archfey patron is closer to what I'd want out of every singleclass EB warlock in terms of (sub)class design. I still like the overall feel (and mechanics play their part here as well, meaning it's not only because of flavour) of the goolock and the fiendlock more, and this is why I've played both while I haven't played a feylock, but there have been many times where I told myself that the next warlock I am playing is going to be a fey one (also why my mind immediately jumps to eladrin, and less often to goblin, when thinking of warlock-appropriate races).

Ending this with a noob question. Do you have to be a halfling in order to get the mark of hospitality feature?






> *The Ring Leader*


Back on topic now, I think you are a little too harsh on your build regarding skill/ability checks. Yes, your base skill selection is limited (and I am guessing that beguiling influence was hard to squeeze in), but the d10 from dark one's own luck can help with ability checks (in fact that's how I was mostly using it when playing a fiendlock). It's surely not enough to make you a skill monkey, but when you have to make an important check, that d10 might come in very handy, and I think that's worth mentioning.

One spell I dont love on warlocks is crown of stars. Partly is because it competes with forcecage, though this is true for every other 7th level spell that I generally like but wouldn't love on warlocks for that exact same reason. But it's not only that. Another reason I dont love it is because it makes you more of a target, but also because it can light up your position and thus make you a target when you might not have been in the first place. The former ties with what I was saying in the beginning about warlock defenses. An edge case scenario is being targeted by dispel magic, which could be particularly annoying if you are concentrating on some other buff at the same time, eg spirit shroud. The latter does not restrict itself to combat, but it can also be hindering you as you move from one encounter to another. But even during combat, lighting up your position (which is probably at a considerable distance especially if you dont invest in cheap maneuverability and escape options) is a big disadvantage for obvious reasons. With a side drawback being that it can negate potential advantage on your attacks (including and not limited only to those granted by crown of stars itself).

The synergy between scorching ray and spirit shroud is a very nasty one, and it's an even better combo if you include hurl through hell (all of which you mention of course). But it has two drawbacks on which I think you should have expanded a little more. First one being that it takes some prep time (which also needs to be timed correctly) to set yourself up for this move (minimum of one round; more if you need to close the distance significantly). The second one is that it has a very short range. Now, each one of these disaadvnatages on its own is imporatant but not what I'd call a deal breaker. But both of them combined makes me doubt the usefullness of this move. If we were to keep the range short but we could somehow compress it to be a one round move, I could see it as a pretty good panic button which I'd use to vaporize an enemy who got in my face and is threatening to down me, or to step forward and save an ally by dealing very good damage on an enemy who is trying to kill them, etc. So the combo has its place in my list of options. Meaning that I now roughly when it would be a good time to use it, and I would be able to use it the way I need it to work, ie in the way that serves one of my build's needs/functions. Similarly, if we were to keep the action economy clog, but we were to increase the range, this is something I could be using when facing tough enemies who are unaware of me but of whom I am aware of (as this would give me the necessary time to prep; possibly I would have to invest in some metamagic feat but they are generally good feats so I dont consider this a huge deal). So again, the move has a place in my arsenal, as I know when I'll be using it and for what purpose, and it can work well enough to fullfill its purpose. With both disadvantages on I dont think this move is going to work, except maybe under exceptional circumstances. I hope I am wrong about it, cause the damage potential is very appealing, so if you have any ideas I missed please detail them. I can this working decently enough if we were to replace spirit shroud with hex (edit: or if we replace scorching ray with EB), but this lowers the nova potential significantly (still, a good move to have on a fiendlock).

I am talking about things I would do or think of differently, because these are what I am interested in discussing. All in all I think your build is great, and mechanics aside I like both the flavour and the way you broke it down.

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## Lavaeolus

> Ending this with a noob question. Do you have to be a halfling in order to get the mark of hospitality feature?


Yep. So, all the traditional Dragonmarks but the Mark of Finding are tied to one specific race. (Finding is available to both humans and half-orcs.) But this is where it gets a little more complex. The Dragonmarks aren't one specific feature, but what they _exactly_ are depends on what race the Mark is tied to:

* *For humans and half-orcs*, the Dragonmarks are variant races that replace most of your usual racial features wholesale.
** For half-elves*, the Dragonmarks are more traditional variant races, replacing specific racial features (your ASIs and Skill Versatility) with new features.
* *For everyone else*, including halflings, the Dragonmark replaces your subrace.

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## Corran

> Yep. So, all the traditional Dragonmarks but the Mark of Finding are tied to one specific race. (Finding is available to both humans and half-orcs.) But this is where it gets a little more complex. The Dragonmarks aren't one specific feature, but what they _exactly_ are depends on what race the Mark is tied to:
> 
> * *For humans and half-orcs*, the Dragonmarks are variant races that replace most of your usual racial features wholesale.
> ** For half-elves*, the Dragonmarks are more traditional variant races, replacing specific racial features (your ASIs and Skill Versatility) with new features.
> * *For everyone else*, including halflings, the Dragonmark replaces your subrace.


Ah, thank you for the breakdown. I had looked at them a long time ago but I didn't remember anything about them (not even that they were tied to race!).

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## Evaar

> I am talking about things I would do or think of differently, because these are what I am interested in discussing. All in all I think your build is great, and mechanics aside I like both the flavour and the way you broke it down.


I think every one of your points is valid. I should've highlighted more that the ultimate nova calculation there is strictly a "potential" and not really intended as practical. You could do it, but it's not going to be the optimal choice in most cases. I also didn't spell out the possibility of missing for that reason, and because I'm not a math guy.

Hex & EB is intended to be the standard, low/no resource combo here. Spirit Shroud is for when you need and can effectively apply the damage - be it in a tight battlemap or if your allies have tools to position you appropriately. Your go-to move for reliable damage would be Wall of Fire plus Repelling Blast (obviously presuming the damage type isn't a problem). 

I think all your points about Crown of Stars are good ones, but just haven't encountered myself. The only issue I had with it was bonus action clogging. Forcecage is just such an obvious powerhouse that I feel obligated to point out a different option, plus it contributes to the multi-hit synergy as noted.

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## NCat

Heres well, its not really a 'build', its more, I guess Ill call it 'Class DLC'? Since its not really a single build but a specific race-feat-dip combo that works on pretty much most classes



So uh, what to name this
Ah

*The Hobgoblin Battle Commander*






A.K.A actually using your bonus action for something worth a damn

Right, so, build requirements are well, dex 13. Thats about it. 

The specific build is
-Hobgoblin (Feywild)
-Rogue (Mastermind) 3
-Feat: Tandem Tactician

So, what does this allow us to do?
Well, this all combines together to increase the potency of the help action dramatically
Lets go bit by bit
1. Hobgoblin Feywild. The hobgoblin feywild variant. While the thing that comes to mind at first is its prof uses per day bonus action help, this is pretty much redundant (twice over). No, what we want this race for is its ability to grant extra features ontop of the help action. For those who havent read it, from player level 3 up, whenever a  Fey-HGoblin takes the help action, it can chose between:
- Granting themself and the person they are helping 1d6+prof mod temp HP
- Increasing the movement speed of themselves and the person they're helping by 10 feet
- The next creature hit by either the Fey-Hobgoblin or the person they helped has disadvantage on its next attack roll

The fun thing about this, is that it has no limit to its use amount. Its just the bonus action helping that is limited.

Oh yeah, and the adding the number of allies you have to your saving throws prof uses per day (max 5 allies) is another fun feature that really adds to the flavor of this class-dlc

2. Rogue, mastermind, 3

So, lets see what we get at each level
level 1, expertise and sneak attack. Its pretty neat. 
If you're playing a melee character, or a gish like a bladesinger or one of those bards, or I guess just using booming blade, then this is a good bit extra damage too. 
also, expertise is always helpful, even if it is much easier to get nowadays than in comparison to when the game came out

Level 2, Cunning action
Pretty helpful for most classes. The ability to disengage is a fine tool for spell castors, especially your squishier wizards. And a dash always helps out when you need to close the gap between you and an enemy, or increase the distance between you. 

Level 3. Now heres the spicy level
Sure, you can chose a number of rogue subclasses. But, the one we want is mastermind, for 1 reason: "Starting at 3rd level, you can use the Help action as a bonus action. Additionally, when you use the Help action to aid an ally in attacking a creature, the target of that attack can be within 30 feet of you, rather than 5 feet of you". Boom, now you dont need to be in hugging distance to screw an enemy over, and we dont need to worry about the limited use nature of our bonus action help. 


3. Tandem Tactician

So, introuced back in Unearthed Arcana 73 - Feats, this was a little feat that didnt get as much attention as its peers, but is super good for this little add on

It grants 3 main features, but since 1 of them is using the help action as a bonus action, its kinda only 2

- Increase the help action range by 10 feet. Normally, this would make it 15 feet, with the normal range being 5. but for us, with a range of 30 feet, this gives us a range of 40 feet.

- When you take the help action in combat, you can grant the advantage to 2 creatures instead of just 1. Now this is pretty good. All that helping we were doing before? Double it. Now you can give two of your friends advantage instead of just 1. Oh yeah, and now that you help action 2 creatures at once, you get to add your fey-hobgoblin features to them aswell




So yeah, with just 3 levels, a race and a feat, you get to do a lot more with your bonus action. This works on pretty much every single class, with the key exceptions of the rogue, the monk and probably the bard, since those already have a pretty full bonus action. This also doesnt work with a number of multiclasses like the sorlock and sorcadin, but then again, those two really dont need it. Maybe some warlock builds that use pact of the blade and the teleporting invocation wont be able to use it, but..
Yeah, Fighter, wizard, cleric, barbarian, druid, ranger, etc etc. 


This is also pretty flavorful, I mean, hobgoblins in lore would be the leaders of a group of goblins, so for them to basically just by being there heavilly increase the effectiveness of their troops. 


The only cons are well, it costs a feat, you have to play a hobgoblin feywild, and you have to take 3 levels in rogue. But I mean, compared to other builds here which are pretty strict in how they work, this ones pretty open to how you wanna play it. If you want to be a bladesinging wizard that gives allies useful information on weaknesses and positioning in a fight, or a cleric granting divine guidance, or a fighter captain pushing their allies forwards in battle. Its fairly customizable, and fairly easy to reflavor




Oh, and you can chose to skip on bits and pieces of this if you want a bit more flexibility, at the cost of effectiveness. Dropping the feat gives more feat flexibility, but less range and amount of helping. Dropping hobgoblin Feywild means you can chose a different race, but less bonus things for helping an ally out. Dropping the 3 levels of rogue means no cunning action, and a major drop in range, but gives back 3 player levels to put into other things. But for best effectiveness, I recommend keeping those 3 pieces together



So yeah, The Hobgoblin Battle Commander. A fun little thing to add to any single class so that you can basically play a straightclass, but with a bit more extra support anf fun to it

:))

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## Jon talks a lot

I've been working on this build for a while, and I think I've finally worked out the kinks. 

The Hex Grappler

Race: Tabaxi
Class: Fighter 16, Warlock 4
Subclass: Psi Warrior, The Genie (Dao) / Pact of the Talisman
Ability Scores: 15+2 STR, 8 DEX, 15 CON, 8 INT, 8WIS, 15+1 CHA
Progression: Fighter 8, Warlock 4, Fighter 8.
ASIs: +2 STR @4, Skill Expert (STR / Athletics Expertise) @6, Sentinel @8, War Caster @12, Fey Touched (CHA / Hex) @16, +1 CON, +1 CHA @18, +2 CHA @20
Fighting Styles: Unarmed Fighting First, then Defense at Fighter 10
Eldritch Invocations: Devil's Sight, Rebuke of the Talisman

Warlock Spells Known: 
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, Eldritch Blast
1st Level: Hex, Armor of Agathys
2nd Level: Spike Growth, Hold Person, Suggestion

How good of a grapple do we have?:
5(STR mod) + 12(Proficiency / expertise) + 1d4(Pact of the Talisman) + Opponent has Disadvantage(Hex)

Burning all our resources in a few turns, here's what we can do:
T1(Turn 1): Action Grapple
T2: Action Cast Spike Growth. Then use feline agility, doubling your movement speed. Bonus Action Empowered Leap, doubling your movement speed to 120. Then drag your grappled foe through the spike growth at half speed, (60 feet), dealing 24d4 damage. 
T3: Action Cast Booming Blade, so they don't dare attempt to escape your grapple while you fire up your next decimation.
T4: Use feline agility. Bonus Action spend a PSI die to Empowered Leap again. Use full movement. Action Dash. Action Surge Dash dealing 33d4 damage to the boss, and only 9d4 to yourself.

----------


## NCat

> I've been working on this build for a while, and I think I've finally worked out the kinks. 
> 
> The Hex Grappler
> 
> Race: Tabaxi
> Class: Fighter 16, Warlock 4
> Subclass: Psi Warrior, The Genie (Dao) / Pact of the Talisman
> Ability Scores: 15+2 STR, 8 DEX, 15 CON, 8 INT, 8WIS, 15+1 CHA
> Progression: Fighter 8, Warlock 4, Fighter 8.
> ...


(drop the grappler feat, its terrible. its a non feat)

I actually thought out a build similiar to this a while back, the only difference was my build was something like, druid (moon) 10, fighter 2, rogue 2, then monk or something for the last few levels? You could probably throw in 2 levels of grave cleric for the damage vulnerability

I also took the mobile feat,  

in essence, my version was designed around using the moon druid abilities to turn into an air elemental, which has a fly speed of 90. Because of this, we can add mobile for a fly speed of 100. Now, the kinda game plan of my version, was essentially to max out speed? Also rogue lets us turn athletics into an expertise, and a third level into fighter lets us become a rune knight, which lets us use a bonus action to give ourselves advantage on str checks, aswell as the frost rune for a +2 to our str ability checks. 

The idea is, with the right set up youve, grappled them, given them damage vulnerability, and placed them in the middle of a spike growth, and you're an air elemental, which lets us, with rogue2/druid10/fighter 3/cleric2 (level 14), move 100 + action dash 100 + bonus action dash 100 + action surge dash 100, t/hen double all that from tabaxi for 800 feet of movement, or about 320d4 damage * 2 from vulnerability


min/max/av-ing that its like

min    320
av      800
max   1280


:))


Oh, and if an ally has haste, you get an extra **** off amount of damage
_
move 100 + action dash 100 + bonus action dash 100 + action surge 100, then double all that from tabaxi for 800 feet of movement, 
_

Right, so we have an extra action and doubled movement speed, so

move 200, haste 200, action dash 200, bonus action dash 200, action surge 200, tabaxi double that for 2000 feet of movement, or 800 d4 * 2

min 8600
average 2000
maximum 3200






TLDR
Tabaxi
moon druid 10 /Fighter 3/ rogue 2 / cleric 2 / 
Mobile
Expertise grapple, turn into a air elemental and blend your enemies


Edit: aw **** I just remembered that when I originally made this I swore to tell no one about it, and i ended up just posting this to a forum

edit: forgot to add action surge to damage math

Sorry DM's everywhere, my bad


Honestly I should delete this nobody should know about this build

EDit 2: forgot about grappling creature halfing your movement speed, numbers halved accordingly


Edit 3:

Regarding size, since you're large, small creatures dont have a movement penalty on you. so killing halflings and gnomes is twice as effective. Also, since you are a large creature, you can grapple a huge creature too. With the help of a local wizard ally, you can further increase your size to huge, allowing you to grapple gargantuan creatures. Which means... That you can grapple the terrasque.






If you asked me to name this, call it the 'Gnome Blender', because it does more damage against them and they deserve to be blended

----------


## Jon talks a lot

> (drop the grappler feat, its terrible. its a non feat)
> 
> I actually thought out a build similiar to this a while back, the only difference was my build was something like, druid (moon) 10, fighter 2, rogue 2, then monk or something for the last few levels? You could probably throw in 2 levels of grave cleric for the damage vulnerability
> 
> I also took the mobile feat,  
> 
> in essence, my version was designed around using the moon druid abilities to turn into an air elemental, which has a fly speed of 90. Because of this, we can add mobile for a fly speed of 100. Now, the kinda game plan of my version, was essentially to max out speed? Also rogue lets us turn athletics into an expertise, and a third level into fighter lets us become a rune knight, which lets us use a bonus action to give ourselves advantage on str checks, aswell as the frost rune for a +2 to our str ability checks. 
> 
> The idea is, with the right set up youve, grappled them, given them damage vulnerability, and placed them in the middle of a spike growth, and you're an air elemental, which lets us, with rogue2/druid10/fighter 3/cleric2 (level 14), move 100 + action dash 100 + bonus action dash 100 + action surge dash 100, t/hen double all that from tabaxi for 800 feet of movement, or about 320d4 damage * 2 from vulnerability
> ...



I disagree, grappler is decent for my build. Getting Advantage on my grapples makes me damn near impossible to fail. 

Also, your build requires 13 WIS, 13 DEX for multiclassing and 20 STR or you will never be able to grapple. And you only get 2 ASI's. Saying you can grapple the tarrasque and actually doing it are two very different things. It has a STR score of 30. 

Additionally, your build doesn't work at all until level 20. 


Out of all of this, only having 2 ASI's is the worst part of it all. You might be able to get 20 STR, but if you are using point buy then that means you have to dump CON, which makes your grappler way too fragile. And if you are rolling stats, there is no way to get meaningful commentary out of random luck.

----------


## Daghoulish

> I disagree, grappler is decent for my build. Getting Advantage on my grapples makes me damn near impossible to fail.


Grappler doesn't give advantage on grapples, it gives you advantage on attack rolls against a creature you have grappled and the ability to put the restrained condition on both your grappled target and yourself.

----------


## Jon talks a lot

> Grappler doesn't give advantage on grapples, it gives you advantage on attack rolls against a creature you have grappled and the ability to put the restrained condition on both your grappled target and yourself.


It's funny how one's brain can read one thing and just decide it read something else. My apologies.

----------


## Sparky McDibben

Hey y'all,

I really liked Ludic's awesome Way of the Demonweb Pits Monk build from a while ago, so I wanted to take a stab at making it a monk subclass! Ludic's given me permission to post it into this thread, so hopefully that's not an issue. [Mods - if that is a problem, please let me know and I'll just delete this reply]

*Monk Tradition: Way of the Demonweb Pits*

The devoted servants of Lolth, these monks patrol the Underdark to protect drow settlements from the monsters in the Deeps. These monks take on titles from their particular patrolled territory. One of them might be called the Master of the Precipice, for example, but the common folk would simply refer to him as "the Edgelord."

*Drow Arts*
At 3rd level, you can use your ki to duplicate the effects of certain spells. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points to cast _darkness, faerie fire, levitate,_ and _web,_ without providing material components. You also learn the _dancing lights_ cantrip, or the _minor illusion_ cantrip if you already knew _dancing lights._ In addition, hand crossbows, rapiers, shortswords, and whips are all considered monk weapons for you.

*See With Eyes Black As Night*
At 6th level, when you cast one of your Drow Arts spells, you can spend any number of ki points and select a number of creatures you can see, including yourself, up to the number of ki points spent. These creatures ignore the effect of that spell. Additionally, you gain proficiency with the poisoner's kit, gain resistance to poison damage, and may apply poison to a monk weapon as a bonus action.

*Welcome to the Underdark*
At 11th level, when an enemy misses you with an attack, you may use your reaction to make an attack of opportunity. In addition, you may spend 1 ki point to make an attack of opportunity when a creature enters your reach.

*Two Legs? That's Cute*
At 17th level, you can briefly channel Lolth's divine will. As a bonus action, you may spend 6 ki points to take on the shape of a drider for a number of minutes equal to your Wisdom modifier. While in this shape, you gain several benefits:

 You add 20 feet to your movement speed You can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check You may cast _web_ as a bonus action on your turn every round without needing concentration Any attacks which use your Martial Arts die for damage also deal another Martial Arts die as poison damage. This poison damage ignores poison resistance, and treats poison immunity as poison resistance.

After you transform back, you must succeed on a Constitution saving throw with a DC equal to your ki saving throw DC or suffer one level of exhaustion.

Let me know what you think!

----------


## Wraith

> The Hex Grappler


Kind of similar to the build that I suggested a while ago, although I suggested Rune Knight over Psi Warrior as getting access to being Large sized and Advantage to STR-checks at level 3 is a hugely beneficial. 

I did the build with Nature Cleric, but I also suggested Dao Genie Warlock, Lore Bard and Land Druid as other possible avenues to get Spike Growth, with various options available depending on what else you wanted to do aside from cantrips like Booming Blade.

----------


## NCat

> Also, your build requires 13 WIS, 13 DEX for multiclassing and 20 STR or you will never be able to grapple. And you only get 2 ASI's. Saying you can grapple the tarrasque and actually doing it are two very different things. It has a STR score of 30. 
> 
> Additionally, your build doesn't work at all until level 20. 
> 
> 
> Out of all of this, only having 2 ASI's is the worst part of it all. You might be able to get 20 STR, but if you are using point buy then that means you have to dump CON, which makes your grappler way too fragile. And if you are rolling stats, there is no way to get meaningful commentary out of random luck.


Well, technically, we're an air elemental while grappling, so we actually could have a str score of 2, or 20. it wouldnt affect the build at all since we will always be using the air elementals str of 12. So, maxxing con or wis is not a problem at all if you want to do that

The build technically comes online at level 10, with that being the minimum level to begin grappling, but really it begins at level 12, with rogue expertise. Since, we dont have a high str as an air elemental, we use expertise to compensate. Our next levels into fighter give us the frost rune for str +2, aswell as advantage on grappling from the rune knight fighter archetype

As for feats, yeah it does kinda suck with that. since you only get your 2 druid ones, and one of them will end up being mobile



Funnilly, literally the night of making my post, we had a no show from 4/6 out of our players (1 always is a little late because of work, so as usual. 1 had university, but joined in at 6 aswell. 2 fat bastards.) so for the first 3 hours we had a one shot, and yeah, this build is what I went with. Its very viable. But it does suffer from the classic nova issue of 'ah crap we walked into another room, i cant really do as much'

So last night I went druid 11, fighter 3, rogue 2, monk 1, cleric 2. Its pretty alright

----------


## Malaketh

> *Kermit the Slaad*
> 
> In battle, Kermit is a beast who stacks poison effects with auto-healing abilities and extra attacks. *His claws (which can use Claw or Bite stats*)


Hi There, So I will be starting a Ghosts of Saltmarsh campaign next week and I am stoked to play this build. However, and forgive my ignorance, but how do you manage the bolded part in your quote? I cannot seem to either find the relevant information, or am misinterpreting it?

Thank you for any answer you can give and thanks for the great builds!

----------


## ftafp

> Hi There, So I will be starting a Ghosts of Saltmarsh campaign next week and I am stoked to play this build. However, and forgive my ignorance, but how do you manage the bolded part in your quote? I cannot seem to either find the relevant information, or am misinterpreting it?
> 
> Thank you for any answer you can give and thanks for the great builds!


I'm glad you like it. The claw and bite attacks come from the Way of the Beast Barbarian subclass in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. When you rage you can choose to manifest either claws or fangs. for most characters claws are the stronger option but grungs can get some extra poison damage when they deal piercing damage with a weapon attack. It doesn't scale very well though so at higher levels the claws go back to being the best option

----------


## Malaketh

> I'm glad you like it. The claw and bite attacks come from the Way of the Beast Barbarian subclass in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. When you rage you can choose to manifest either claws or fangs. for most characters claws are the stronger option but grungs can get some extra poison damage when they deal piercing damage with a weapon attack. It doesn't scale very well though so at higher levels the claws go back to being the best option


Ahhhh I see what you mean now. I misunderstood. I though you were implying that the claws could be used as piercing or slashing interchangeably. But you mean start with bite then eventually go to claws.

----------


## ftafp

> Ahhhh I see what you mean now. I misunderstood. I though you were implying that the claws could be used as piercing or slashing interchangeably. But you mean start with bite then eventually go to claws.


yeah, I should probably clarify that. I originally wanted to do a build inspired by the hairy frog (a.k.a. the wolverine frog due to its bone claws and sick sideburns, hence the image), but then midway through writing it I learned that Slaad also had bone claws, bites and regeneration so I pivoted. The post got kind of scrambled in the process

----------


## Jon talks a lot

> Well, technically, we're an air elemental while grappling, so we actually could have a str score of 2, or 20. it wouldnt affect the build at all since we will always be using the air elementals str of 12. So, maxxing con or wis is not a problem at all if you want to do that
> 
> The build technically comes online at level 10, with that being the minimum level to begin grappling, but really it begins at level 12, with rogue expertise. Since, we dont have a high str as an air elemental, we use expertise to compensate. Our next levels into fighter give us the frost rune for str +2, aswell as advantage on grappling from the rune knight fighter archetype
> 
> As for feats, yeah it does kinda suck with that. since you only get your 2 druid ones, and one of them will end up being mobile
> 
> 
> 
> Funnilly, literally the night of making my post, we had a no show from 4/6 out of our players (1 always is a little late because of work, so as usual. 1 had university, but joined in at 6 aswell. 2 fat bastards.) so for the first 3 hours we had a one shot, and yeah, this build is what I went with. Its very viable. But it does suffer from the classic nova issue of 'ah crap we walked into another room, i cant really do as much'
> ...




So you can only effectively grapple twice per rest? Because that's how many wildshapes you have. 

Expertise doesn't matter as much at low levels, which means that until you get to the epic levels that few campaigns get to, it's not much of a compensation.

Any level 20 build is OP unless you actively make it not. Playing a level 20 one shot is not a good representative of how your build would function at most levels.

----------


## da newt

This probably isn't worthy of this thread (it's not optimized much - pretty vanilla) but I've had fun with the following effective build:

Dhampir (Elf) Vengeance Paladin
W/ Revenant Blade and RES CON feats

Basically, I think the theme of vengeance pali and dhampir compliment each other nicely, spider climb is one of my favorite tricks, any feat for extra attacks is great for a pali, +10 to concentration checks is great for your buffs, spamming BLESS is always good, lay on hands and bites add extra HP, good AC and saves, ADV on bites when bloodied and you can smite bite (so thematic), etc.

Not really the best at anything, but handy all around (except ranged, but you can go Dex if you like), fun to RP, and it feeds my completely biased joy of spider climb.

----------


## NCat

> So you can only effectively grapple twice per rest? Because that's how many wildshapes you have. 
> 
> Expertise doesn't matter as much at low levels, which means that until you get to the epic levels that few campaigns get to, it's not much of a compensation.
> 
> Any level 20 build is OP unless you actively make it not. Playing a level 20 one shot is not a good representative of how your build would function at most levels.



Well, its at its strongest at level 20, but you dont have to be at level 20 for you to be able to do your high tier damage, the reason I list the damage output and higher level such stuff was just so you could see the progression you would take post level 10

Yes, you dont get to grapple many times per rest, which is a downside, but the point of the build is a single target, nova build. In that case its game/dm dependent. If you're in a campaign where you have multiple combat encounters per day against large groups of lower level enemies, its not going to be as effective as you would be against a single boss type enemy.  Ive been in a campaign before where its pretty much just long rest then a fight against a single enemy or a few strong enemies, with dungeons ending with fights against particularly strong enemies. 

so yeah, it suffers from the drawbacks that nova builds have.

----------


## Jon talks a lot

> Well, its at its strongest at level 20, but you dont have to be at level 20 for you to be able to do your high tier damage, the reason I list the damage output and higher level such stuff was just so you could see the progression you would take post level 10
> 
> Yes, you dont get to grapple many times per rest, which is a downside, but the point of the build is a single target, nova build. In that case its game/dm dependent. If you're in a campaign where you have multiple combat encounters per day against large groups of lower level enemies, its not going to be as effective as you would be against a single boss type enemy.  Ive been in a campaign before where its pretty much just long rest then a fight against a single enemy or a few strong enemies, with dungeons ending with fights against particularly strong enemies. 
> 
> so yeah, it suffers from the drawbacks that nova builds have.


Most campaigns don't even hit 15. 2/3 of a normal campaign you won't be able to do your strategy.

Are you really comparing this build to a sorlockadin or the Nuclear Wizard. There is a very solid reason why those builds are extremly popular and this is not. It isn't about the nova damage, it's about being effective. Sure you can do a lot of damage at level 20, but no ****, any min maxer can. It's the build up to your capstone which makes an effective build, and it's when the build comes online that makes or breaks it.

----------


## Wraith

*Breath of the Twin-Headed Dragon*



Art by Kerem Bayit

Most people know that the Hydra, from the mythology of antiquity, was a giant reptile with a rate of healing so prodigious that, were a hero to cut off one of its two heads then two more would immediately sprout back in its place. Fewer people know about the other thing that made the Hydra truly lethal rather than merely formidable - it could exhale a cloud of noxious poison from any of its mouths that was so potent that it would kill everything for miles around - people, animals, even plant life.

The concept behind this build is to do just that - While our two heads are not necessarily attached to the same body, we are definitely able to spew out multiple breath weapons every turn and drown the battlefield in cones of deadly energy.

*The Build*
Theres several different ways of achieving this build with slightly different themes, so Ill start with the simplest and expand from there.

*Race:* Dragonkin
*Class:* Fighter 3 / Wizard 3+
*Stats:* Prioritize CON followed by your spellcasting ability, usually INT. Unless you use one of the variant builds from below, you may have to pick STR or DEX and choose your equipment and feats appropriately, as it can be tough to take both and to also meet all of the multiclassing requirements.
*ASIs:* Max out CON, then Warcaster. After that you have room for whatever you like, but improving your spellcasting stat would be wise.

*Born of the Dragon*
The earliest step to this build is to take Dragonborn as your race, and keep your CON as high as possible. This lets you pick a breath weapon of whatever damage type you like, which may be important depending on what enemy features heavily in your campaign.

In VERY broad strokes, the basic damage types which the fewest varieties of enemies are resisted by/immune to are (in descending order): Thunder, Acid, Lightning, Cold, Fire, Poison. Being a Black or Copper Dragonborn will *probably* give you the edge against the most enemies if youre unsure, although if you prefer a cone-shaped template then the next best choice is Silver or White dragons for Cold. 
If for some strange reason you have access to Explorers Guide to Wildemont but NOT Tashas Cauldron of Everything, the Ravenite Dragonkin are also pretty good too as they get +STR and +CON as racial stats.

If youre allowed to use Unearthed Arcana at your table, the new Gemstone-type Dragonkin are almost universally better; being able to cause Force, Psychic, Radiant or Necrotic damage is even more exclusive than the usual mundane damage types, and they get to fly innately into the bargain.

*How Does It Work?*
Its a two-step process. The first is (usually) to be a Fighter - strictly speaking you dont have to do this, but your breath weapon is short ranged so to get the most out of it you will have a much better time of it if you can wear armour and carry a shield. You can do it as Cleric or Ranger if you like, but getting through levels 1-3 as a Fighter is less risky than as a Wizard, and Action Surge is always great for action economy.
We then take level 4-6 as Wizard in order to get level 2 spells so that we can combine _Find Familiar_ and _Dragons Breath_, and thats it. You can use your innate Dragon Breath while your Familiar does the same from the spell and drown the battlefield in firey/frozen/acidic/radioactive death. You can then pick your subclasses to taste, or even mix up a few different classes, and mix-and-match to suit your character:

*Fighter (Rune Knight) 3 / Wizard (Evoker) 3+*
Ive made three Eclectic Builds prior to this one and they all use Rune Knight too, so I wont say that you have to do so here - its just a really good subclass, and a little extra range on your spell effects never hurts. 
Evoker isnt particularly powerful, but being able to sculpt your spells and protect your allies is pretty useful when you have two big AoEs going off every turn.

*Fighter (Eldritch Knight) 8+*
Its the same package, but in exchange for coming online a little bit later (You cant get a level 2 non-Evocation/Abjuration spell until level 8) you get a bigger focus on melee combat in the meantime. This isnt a bad idea since _Dragons Breath_ has a short range so youre likely to be at the front of the fight whenever you use it.

*Fighter (Any) 3 / Wizard (Order of Scribes) 3+*
Your innate breath weapon is fixed, but Scribes lets you change that of your Familiar to whatever else you have in your spellbook. At lower levels while youre still looking to boost your Spell Save DC, this can be very useful to ensure that youre consistently able to damage whatever you come across - you really cant go wrong with Force damage if youre worried about your damage being reduced, its by far the least resisted/immune type out there.

*Fighter (Any) 3 / Wizard (War Magic) 3+*
Similar to the Eldritch Knight package above - On the frontline, you will appreciate the boost to your AC and Initiative with faster spellcasting progression. Combine both if you like, and double up your level 1 slots and cantrips for popular favourites like _Booming Blade_, _Shield_ and so on.

*Fighter (Cavalier) 3 / Sorcerer (Draconic Bloodline) 3+*
Youre an expert at controlling a creature who follows you into battle - sounds perfect if you want to play a CHA-based spellcaster and cant easily pick up _Find Familiar_ without multiclassing or using a feat. Just be aware of the limitations of mounted combat; while riding a controlled mount, it can ONLY make Move, Dash or Disengage actions, so if you want it to use Dragons Breath then youll have to dismount, or invest in an independently-minded creature.
The Draconic Bloodline doesnt do anything specifically to help the combo, but its very thematic.

*Ranger (Beast Master) 3 / Sorcerer 3+*
Im not crazy about this combination in terms of optimization due to it being MAD as hell for multiclassing AND buffing our CON AND having enough STR or DEX to be useful in a fight, but I love the imagery and you have a much bigger variety of potential Beast companions than mounts, depending on what theme you want.

*Cleric (Tempest) 3 / Wizard 3+*
Similar to Ranger you have a new requirement on WIS for multiclassing which can be hard to manage, but you get a lot out of it. Tempest gives you Heavy armour and Martial weapons which makes you more closely comparable to a Fighter in defence, and your Wrath of the Storm and Destructive Wrath work nicely with your role as a front-liner and your breath weapon (if you took Lightning as your type) on top of the usual healing and support spells.

*Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 3+*
Read _Dragons Breath_ carefully; while the effect of the exhale is an AoE, when casting it targets one willing creature and therefore can in theory be Twin-Cast, one for your Familiar (obtained via the Magic Initiate: Wizard feat) and one for your mount obtained via _Find Steed_ - three breath weapons per turn!
DISCLAIMER: There is some controversy as to whether this is legal. Jeremy Crawford says no, but its been argued pretty convincingly that hes wrong and hes made a bad call that doesnt fit with other rulings that use the same wording. Check with your GM to make sure, but by strict RaW it should be okay.

*Bard (College of Lore) 6+*
Everything you need in one neat little package via the miracle that is Magical Secrets. It comes online at the same level as Fighter/Wizard and you can pick up _Dragons Breath_ and either _Find Familiar_ or _Find Steed_ without spoiling your mono-class progression. Upgrade to _Find Greater Steed_ later if you want something a bit heftier - like a Fire-breathing Rhinoceros or an Acid-spitting Sabre-Toothed Tiger.

*Warlock (Hexblade Pact of the Chain) 3+ / Sorcerer (Any) 3+*
Stat-synergy with CHA which free up some points for something besides CON, which also gets you an improved Familiar on top of the usual Coffee-Lock shenanigans if your party isnt interested in Long rests.

*Pros of the Build:* You get to be a dragon and cover the map in your favourite types of elemental damage, and who doesnt like rolling a bunch of dice all the time? Theres also lots of different ways in which you can achieve the same effect with a variety of different classes, so you can flavour your theme however you wish.

*Cons of the Build:* Although you can make it somewhat reliable by buffing your CON and picking your damage type appropriately, Dragonborns breath weapon doesnt scale very well into higher level so theres a distinct sweet spot between levels 6-10 after which you will need to find new gimmicks to add to your repertoire. Easily achievable, since you're at least one kind of spellcaster, but then you're no longer focusing on the breath weapon.

----------


## Stattick

> *Breath of the Twin-Headed Dragon*
> 
> 
> 
> Art by Kerem Bayit
> 
> Most people know that the Hydra, from the mythology of antiquity, was a giant reptile with a rate of healing so prodigious that, were a hero to cut off one of its two heads then two more would immediately sprout back in its place. Fewer people know about the other thing that made the Hydra truly lethal rather than merely formidable - it could exhale a cloud of noxious poison from any of its mouths that was so potent that it would kill everything for miles around - people, animals, even plant life.
> 
> The concept behind this build is to do just that - While our two heads are not necessarily attached to the same body, we are definitely able to spew out multiple breath weapons every turn and drown the battlefield in cones of deadly energy.
> ...


Twin it to win it. You can twin Dragon's Breath, casting it on both your Familiar and Unseen Servant.

----------


## ftafp

> Twin it to win it. You can twin Dragon's Breath, casting it on both your Familiar and Unseen Servant.


unseen servant isn't a creature and according to crawford, dragon's breath cannot be twinned

----------


## Wraith

> Twin it to win it. You can twin Dragon's Breath, casting it on both your Familiar and Unseen Servant.


Yep.




> Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 3+
> Read Dragons Breath carefully; while the effect of the exhale is an AoE, when casting it targets one willing creature and therefore can in theory be Twin-Cast, one for your Familiar (obtained via the Magic Initiate: Wizard feat) and one for your mount obtained via Find Steed - three breath weapons per turn!
> DISCLAIMER: There is some controversy as to whether this is legal. Jeremy Crawford says no, but its been argued pretty convincingly that hes wrong and hes made a bad call that doesnt fit with other rulings that use the same wording. Check with your GM to make sure, but by strict RaW it should be okay.


 :Small Smile:

----------


## LudicSavant

> unseen servant isn't a creature


Yeah.  You can't cast Dragon's Breath on an Unseen Servant at all, because it is not a creature.




> DISCLAIMER: There is some controversy as to whether this is legal. Jeremy Crawford says no, but its been argued pretty convincingly that hes wrong and hes made a bad call that doesnt fit with other rulings that use the same wording. Check with your GM to make sure, but by strict RaW it should be okay.


Having thoroughly scoured the rules, and examined every argument I could find on the matter, my conclusion is that it not only goes against RAI, but doesn't work by strict RAW either.

I've seen this come up a few times, so I've taken the time to do a thorough breakdown of the issue.

*Spoiler: Detailed breakdown*
Show

Note that Dragon's Breath never uses the word "target" in its spell description.  So we have to refer to all of the general rules for spellcasting, spread wide throughout the PHB and DMG. 

As far as I can ascertain, the place people get tripped up is usually either A) assuming the "Range" line is instead a "Targets" line and/or B) this line in the PHB:

*Spoiler: PHB pg202: Range*
Show




> For a spell like fireball, *the target* is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts.




This is sometimes construed as "the *only* target."  But that cannot be the case, because we know that a point in space isn't the _only_ target of Fireball, because the rules tell us so, over and over and over again.

*Spoiler: PHB pg241: Fireball*
Show




> A *target* takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.





*Spoiler: PHB pg196: Area of Effect Damage Rolls*
Show




> If a spell or other effect deals damage to *more than one target* at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts _fireball_ or a cleric casts _flame strike_, the spell's damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.


  Note the bolding isn't mine in this one.  The PHB bolds the word target here.


*Spoiler: PHB pg205:  Spell Saving Throws*
Show




> SAVING THROWS
> Many spells specify that a *target* can make a saving throw to avoid some or all of a spell's effects. The spell specifies the ability that the *target* uses for the save and what happens on a success or failure.  
> 
> The DC *to resist one of your spells* equals 8 + your spellcasting ability modifier + your proficiency bonus + any special modifiers.


Dragon's Breath refers to this rule just like everything else does.  When someone makes a save against Dragon's Breath, they're making a save *to resist one of your spells* using the save DC established in this rule, right here.


*Spoiler: DMG pg249: Adjudicating Areas of Effect*
Show





*Spoiler: DMG pg249: Adjudicating Areas of Effect*
Show




> For example, if a wizard directs_ burning hands_ (a 15-foot cone) at a nearby group of orcs, you could use the table and say that two orcs are *targeted* (15 + 10 = 1.5, rounded up to 2).





*Spoiler: DMG pg250: Adjudicating Areas of Effect*
Show




> Similarly, a sorcerer could launch a _lightning bolt_ (100-foot line) at some ogres and hobgoblins, and you could use the table to say four of the monsters are *targeted* (100 + 30 = 3.33, rounded up to 4).





If it looks to you like Pg202 is contradicting all these rules (and more), then you might be making a subtle assumption that you don't even realize is an assumption:  That when it says "the target" it means "the _only_ target."

But in context, that line of pg202 isn't saying 'the _only_ target,' it's talking about 'the _initial_ target,' the target at that point in the resolution of the spell (the point where you are resolving Range).  It even ends that section by noting that the spell's effects aren't limited by its Range after the initial casting.  And sure enough, every dev commentary reflects this:  They say that AoEs target a point in space, _then_ expands from the point of origin to target creatures in the Area of Effect.  Which is indeed consistent with all of the rules we have (which, time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time, refer to creatures inside an area of effect as targets).

A third argument I've seen has been that if Dragon's Breath isn't Twinnable, then Haste wouldn't be either.  The argument here is that both are just giving your ally a new capability, rather than _you_ hitting them with anything.  But Dragon's Breath is not like Haste:  Dragon's Breath is directly hitting them with _your_ spellcasting DC determined by _your_ spellcasting abilities, per pg205.

In addition to all of the above points and evidence, there's a principle of 5e which I feel is well-articulated in this post by SevenSidedDie:




> D&D 5th edition is not a keyword-driven game; quite the opposite: the designers deliberately avoided writing using keywords where possible in favour of describing the rules in what they dubbed natural language.*** Lacking the word target is therefore not significant. What is significant is if the spell literally doesn't target you, in the normal meaning of the words.
> 
> Does the spell designate a creature as the direct recipient of its effect (i.e., what targets means in plain language)? Is that creature you? Then it targets you.





> *** Ironic that, to convince a readership conditioned to look for keywords, they had to raise the phrase natural language to being nearly a keyword itself to indicate that the rules should be read as normal English!




*tl;dr:*  While AoEs _initially_ target a point in space, the rules repeatedly (over and over) establish that they do not _only_ target a point in space, and that affected creatures are indeed targets of AoEs.

Dragon's Breath can potentially hit multiple enemies with your spellcasting DC determined by your spellcasting abilities using a general rule on pg205 (for a target making a save to "resist one of your spells")

With the current errata, Twinned Spell doesn't care about when you are targeting multiple creatures, only whether or not a spell is capable of doing so.




> while the effect of the exhale is an AoE, when casting it targets one willing creature


It doesn't matter what point during the spell's duration it's targeting more than one creature at, as the current errata words Twinned Spell as: "To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spells current level."

One willing creature is the initial target, but it is not the _only_ possible target of Dragon's Breath over the course of its duration (as established above), and therefore it is quite reasonable to say that it does not meet the criteria for Twinned Spell.

----------


## Quietus

I think the argument goes, the cone of fire isn't the spell.  The spell is "that person can breathe fire", and it only targets that person. Any targets beyond that are technically not targets of the spell itself.

----------


## LudicSavant

> I think the argument goes, the cone of fire isn't the spell.


I addressed that one above as "a third argument I've seen."  As I mentioned, the rules appear to indicate that the cone of fire _is_ part of the effect of the spell you are Concentrating on.

What is also written in the rules is that part of the effect of Dragon's Breath is that it can force a save DC on multiple creatures.  What save DC?  This one:




> *The DC to resist one of your spells* equals 8 + your spellcasting ability modifier + your proficiency bonus + any special modifiers.


Note that it does not say "the DC for resisting something that is not a part of the spell effect."

The wording is more similar to something like Sunbeam than, say, a Tasha's Summon (which actually creates actions that are 'not the spell...' and thus has to actually mention what the save DC is in the description of said actions).

----------


## NCat

> Most campaigns don't even hit 15. 2/3 of a normal campaign you won't be able to do your strategy.
> 
> Are you really comparing this build to a sorlockadin or the Nuclear Wizard. There is a very solid reason why those builds are extremly popular and this is not. It isn't about the nova damage, it's about being effective. Sure you can do a lot of damage at level 20, but no ****, any min maxer can. It's the build up to your capstone which makes an effective build, and it's when the build comes online that makes or breaks it.




Once again, you can do fairly decent damage around level 10, with 10-20 just being increasing the effectiveness of it. 

Yes, this build doesnt properly exist until level 10, and yes, its combat utility isnt the greatest without its gimmick, being locked at highest at being only an 11th level spell caster

Its not super amazing, that is why when, in the initial reply, it wasnt a full reply to Ludic, it was a reply to a build with a similiar premise, with me talking about how I created a similiar character concept. To be fair, it is 100% my fault for not presenting it better, since it while effective at higher levels, it doesnt really match the requirements for build ideas for this thread i set out personally. 
Its also not really fun, to be honest.

Being a wizard with a powerful auto hit nova ability? Thats fun. You're a wizard, and you have this super special ace move in your collection
Melee cleric-ing? Also fun, also effective
Gimmick build designed to do 1 single thing very effectively while sucking for the rest of everything? And that one gimmick thing is just alot of dice to the point its not even fun, its more just showing off? Not fun, not really versatile enough to meet my definition of fun, and boring gameplay wise. So no, the gnome-blender is not a good Ludic's fun and effective build list suggestion. Its just me sharing a theory crafted build that I made a while back, at the prompt of a different build that was shared that had a similiar core mechanic.

And still though, once again, this builds gimmick works from level 10, and the multiclassing from then on is building up level 20.

----------


## Wraith

> Everything


On balance, I accept that you are probably right, and that the spell was probably never intended to be Twin-Spelled and people who want to do it are reaching for comparisons that don't really stack up.

The only minor - and I stress how incredibly small this is - exception that I can think of derives from this:




> What is also written in the rules is that part of the effect of Dragon's Breath is that it can force a save DC on multiple creatures. What save DC? This one:
> 
> Note that it does not say "the DC for resisting something that is not a part of the spell effect."


The implication being that because it forces a Spell Save, it must be a spell effect? Not necessarily true. Artificer Artillerist's Eldritch Cannon isn't a spell, but uses a cone-effect and requires a Spell Save to avoid. Glamour Bard's Enthralling Performance and Unbreakable Majesty, Wildfire Druid's Summon Wildfire Spirit and Arcane Trickster's Spell Thief all similarly are non-spell abilities which invoke a Spell Save.

So casting the spell Dragon's Breath in order to grant a creature a non-spell, Spell DC-using ability is not entirely outrageous, there are precedents for similar abilities. This is the angle that I was working from, when I made the suggestion above. 

Again, I stress that I would agree with your interpretation - all I wish to suggest is that I wouldn't expect the average gaming group to make such an in-depth interrogation of the rules, and that I could easily see a way that it could be quiet reasonably Golden Rule'd, as mentioned in my original post. This isn't a hill that I intend to die upon - Worse case scenario? Strike the Paladin/Sorcerer combo from the build suggestions, whatever. It's niche and I doubt will be missed, but I still think it's interesting to try so long as you're not playing to AL standards where it will be scrutinized.

----------


## LudicSavant

> The implication being that because it forces a Spell Save, it must be a spell effect?


No, sorry if I was unclear, the implication is that it does not need to _tell you_ it uses that save DC, because it's a spell effect.  In direct contrast to abilities such as these ones:




> Artificer Artillerist's Eldritch Cannon isn't a spell, but uses a cone-effect and requires a Spell Save to avoid. Glamour Bard's Enthralling Performance and Unbreakable Majesty, Wildfire Druid's Summon Wildfire Spirit and Arcane Trickster's Spell Thief all similarly are non-spell abilities which invoke a Spell Save.


In direct contrast to spell effects, those abilities will all say (in their description) that they are against your spell DC.  Whereas actual spell effects don't, because it would be redundant.

e.g. a spell effect (like Dragon's Breath) would just say "Each target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be charmed by you."  By contrast, a non-spell effect (like the things you list above) say "Each target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw against your spell save DC or be charmed by you."

And sure enough, Dragon's Breath, Sunbeam, and the like are all worded the first way, because they're spell effects.  Whereas everything on your list is worded the second way, because they're not.  Same with, say, the abilities of summoned creatures from the Tasha spells:  their abilities aren't your spells, so it has to specifically note that they use your spell save DC in each of those abilities.

----------


## ftafp

*The Cerulean City Sorlock: A build for the Pokemon Trainer in your heart*

*Race:* Variant Human (Ritual Caster: Wizard)
*Class:* Aberrant Mind 1/Fathomless X
*Stats:* 8 Str, (13+1) Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, (15+1) Cha
*ASI:* +2 [email protected], +2 [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], Inspiring [email protected]
*Pact:* Pact of the Chain
*Invocations:* Investment of the Chain Master

*Tier 1:*
We start off strong with Sorcerer 1. This gives us Con Save proficiency, Shield and a number of neat cantrips as well as Find Familiar from Ritual Caster. Every pokemon trainer needs a shoulder companion and this one will be yours. The Owl stat block is the best pick but there's no rules saying you can't refluff it as a more flavorful critter. For cantrips Shocking Grasp is the obvious choice if you want to attack with your familiar, but if you go with that make sure your familiar takes the Dodge action on its turn for its own safety. Other spells that refluff well as summons are Mage Hand and Chill Touch, which I would personally refluff as little jellyfish, but for the sake practicality I'm obligated to remind you to take some utility options, particularly since at level 2 we go into Warlock at which point I am mandated by court order to remind you to never play a warlock without eldritch blast and agonizing blast. We got that? Good. With that out of the way, Fathomless 1 gives you a new summon, the spectral Tentacle of the Deep, which will give you a use for your bonus action. Warlock 2 gives us our invocations and at 3 we get the chance to pick Pact of the Chain and replace one of our invocations with Investment of the Chain Master. Sprite is far and away the best official option with its ranged attacks that poisons an enemy for 1 minute with a single save, but before picking it I insist you show your DM the entry for the Gazer in Volo's Guide to Monsters and which offers it as a variant option and asking pretty-please if they'll let you take it. If not, no harm no foul, just keep doing what you're doing until you hit Warlock 5.

*Tier 2:*
3rd level spells are a game-changer, and I do mean that literally, but the first 3rd level spell you're going to have access to will precede your 3rd level slots, by which I mean Phantom Steed which you can get as a ritual at Sor 1/Lock 4. It's good. Refluff it as a kelpie. You may have noticed that this is the spell level where you start getting your first "real" summon options, among which Summon Undead is easily the best option available at the moment. The ghostly spirit is fantastic control but against poisonable enemies putrid synergizes fantastically with the sprite familiar and its poison arrows. This is only going to last you until Warlock 7 though when you gain access to Summon Greater Demon. This is a fantastic summon spell with a number of great summon options including the Dybbuk, Babau, Barlgura, Chasme and Vrock, each of whom have their own spellcasting. The demon you summon does have a chance of breaking free and going nuts (likely a sign of you not having enough badges to train them), but this can actually be used to your advantage as once they've gone off the rails you can just stop concentrating and stand back while it attacks the nearest non-demons for the next 1d6 turns, which should be your enemies.

*Tier 3:*
At level 10 you get Evard's Shameful Anime Collection for free, and what luck! You get temp HP for it and your concentration can't be broken, that's pretty nifty.  Once you're bored of that it's time to level up that useless little guy you picked up on route 1, and evolve Mage Hand into Big-Boy Hand. This is a spell with a remarkable amount of versatility so use it wisely. How do you do that? No clue, moving on. It's 6th level spells. Pat yourself on the back because you just got a real whammy, Summon Fey, which comes to you with the hottest new summoning technique fresh off the press: Summon NPC

To give you some clarification, in addition to the monster stats, the Monster Manual (like similar books) provides a list of NPC stat blocks that have the (any race) tag next to their type. MM explains that these stat blocks can be given the racial traits of any race without altering their Challenge Rating, and that if they have spellcasting from a class you can swap them out with different class spells without altering their Challenge Rating. This is all well and good, you might be thinking, but these are Humanoids you can't summon those! Well, no, you can't summon humanoids, but a number of races including the Satry, Centaur and Hexblood have racial traits that change their type from Humanoid to Fey. That means you can summon these kinds of NPCs with Conjure Fey which as the rules clearly state, lets _you the player_ choose what creature you summon, so why don't you summon up a Hexblood (for the sake of thematics let's make it one with a swim speed from ancestral legacy) Warlock of the Archfey. That warlock also has Conjure Fey on its stat block, so you see where this is going: Infinite loop time!

*Tier 4:*
From this point on I don't like going over character options since casters with spells of 7th level or higher are basically gods and have no need for optimization, but I should note that at Warlock 17 you get access to True Polymorph which is your capstone summoning spell, allowing you to turn any object into a creature of CR 10 or lower under your control. Have fun with that.

----------


## LudicSavant

> *The Cerulean City Sorlock: A build for the Pokemon Trainer in your heart*
> 
> *Race:* Variant Human (Ritual Caster: Wizard)
> *Class:* Aberrant Mind 1/Fathomless X
> *Stats:* 8 Str, (13+1) Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, (15+1) Cha
> *ASI:* +2 [email protected], +2 [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], Inspiring [email protected]
> *Pact:* Pact of the Chain
> *Invocations:* Investment of the Chain Master


Gotta catch 'em all!

I have been curious about Investment of the Chain Master but haven't played with it too much yet.  Do you have any thoughts on how you would use the Sprite at higher levels, given that its attack bonus stays +6?




> Again, I stress that I would agree with your interpretation - all I wish to suggest is that I wouldn't expect the average gaming group to make such an in-depth interrogation of the rules, and that I could easily see a way that it could be quiet reasonably Golden Rule'd, as mentioned in my original post. This isn't a hill that I intend to die upon - Worse case scenario? Strike the Paladin/Sorcerer combo from the build suggestions, whatever. It's niche and I doubt will be missed, but I still think it's interesting to try so long as you're not playing to AL standards where it will be scrutinized.


Yeah for sure, it's just one of the many variants in your post!

----------


## ftafp

> I have been curious about Investment of the Chain Master but haven't played with it too much yet.  Do you have any thoughts on how you would use the Sprite at higher levels, given that its attack bonus stays +6?


at higher levels its effectiveness definitely falls off, particularly as enemies stop being poisonable. at those levels if you dont have a gazer, your best option is to drop the invocation and arm your familiar with magic items. i've had great success in the past giving a rat a necklace of fireballs

that said, sprites can use any magic shortbow, so if you're fighting lots of humanoids or fey you can give them gear upgrades

----------


## NecessaryWeevil

Apologies if this has been answered already, but-
I took the Arcana Cleric Frontliner (Scourge Aasimar). DM is giving everyone a feat at first level. I took Magic Initiate (Druid) so I could get into melee sooner, rather than Warcaster as you recommended. How much is it going to hurt me to take MI first instead of Warcaster?

----------


## LudicSavant

> Apologies if this has been answered already, but-
> I took the Arcana Cleric Frontliner (Scourge Aasimar). DM is giving everyone a feat at first level. I took Magic Initiate (Druid) so I could get into melee sooner, rather than Warcaster as you recommended. How much is it going to hurt me to take MI first instead of Warcaster?


Taking MI (Druid) instead of Warcaster at 1 is fine for the Arcana Cleric. 

The Scourge Aasimar pick, however, has some issues you should take into account:  your transformation damages yourself and therefore triggers Concentration saves, which can be troublesome unless you can make DC 10 Concentration checks 100% of the time.  Also, the Scourge Aasimar transformation doesn't turn off if you get knocked to zero, so Scourge Aasimars can coup de grace themselves.

----------


## ftafp

*The Unseelie Wander: A multi-faceted terror for those who want to join the Wild Hunt*




> Join, hide, or die. Those are your options when the Wild Hunt comes for you.
> 
> Well tonight, the Hunt is joining _me_.


*Race:* Mountain Dwarf
*Class:* Undead Warlock 2/Fey Wanderer 13/Undead Warlock X
*Stats(Point-Buy):* 8 Str, 13 Dex, 12 Con, 8 Int, (15+2) Wis, (15+2) Cha
*ASI:* +1 Cha, +1 [email protected], Resilent(+1 Con)@10, +2 [email protected], [email protected]
*Invocations:* Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Book of Ancient Secrets
*Pact:* Pact of the Tome
*Expertise:* Intimidation, Persuasion or Deception
*Spells of Note:* Eldritch Blast, Armor of Agathys, Goodberry, Aid, Spike Growth, Pass Without Trace, Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Conjure Animals, Plant Growth, Death Ward, Summon Greater Demon, Conjure Woodland Beings

*Tier 1:*
Level 1 is a time of chaos, but you come better prepared than most. A recent release at the time this was written, the Undead Warlock is a beast of terror, with the ability to inspire fear in enemies once per turn for a full minute. Mountain Dwarf isn't strictly necessary, but the ASI mediates that MADness and medium armor mollifies your martial marginality. We take this to 2 because agonizing and repelling blast are the only reasons EB is capable of matching up to the PAM/GWM and XBE/SS combos. After that we switch into Ranger, and at level 4 our strategy is going to get interesting. See, no party strictly needs to start their day from the minute they get up. It doesn't work that way in real life  or at least it's not supposed to  you eat breakfast, take a shower, get dressed and make some sandwiches ahead of time for lunch. Many players in this modern rat race skip this step, but as a warlock there's no reason you can't take some time to cast some long-lasting spells in the morning and take a rest or two (or four) to restore your spell slots. At 4 the first of these spells is goodberry. With a shelf life of 24 hours you can spend a morning growing these and start the day with 80 hp worth of healing in berry form without wasting any spell slots. Undead Warlock gets plenty of spells like these, but frankly that's a matter for another build

*Tier 2:*
Ranger 3. Enter the Unseelie Wanderer, who adds both Cha and Wis to both courtly schmoozing, and inspiring pants-wetting terror in your enemies. For those keeping score, the social skill you got expertise in from deft explorer now has a +12 bonus, and it's going up to +14 at Ranger 4. At Ranger 5 we start getting the really nasty spells. Among them are Aid, Spike Growth and Power Word Tiptoe, all of which are absolutely necessary. Aid is great and its action casting time means it can double as a mass cure wounds in a pinch, but you're going to get extra oomph out of spike growth. Use repelling blast and go nuts on the cheese grater. Ranger 6 is a bit of a dull level but at Ranger 7 we get our subclass feature Beguiling Twist, and this is where the build goes absolutely bonkers. Remember how you could blast enemies with 1 round of fear every round for a minute? Well now if your enemies pass their saves, you can redirect that fear to someone else and make it last for up to a minute. That's pretty nuts if I do say so myself. Level 10 gets you an ASI and with it proficiency in Con saves. After this the fun begins

*Tier 3:*
Ranger 9, ranger 9. How can I count the ways I love you. Conjure Animals is one of the best summon spells in the game (assuming your DM doesn't hate you) and now you can have an army of hounds of the hunt at your beck and call. You can also get Plant Growth at this level which is just genuine general purpose crowd control. At level 12 you get Nature's Veil for concentration-free invisibility as a bonus action PB times per day. Nice! At 13 you get concentration-free Summon Fey. I'd stick with the Mirthful spirit as it gives you a handy charm effect to redirect giving you two chances to use Beguiling Twist a round. After that comes Ranger 12 and we can finally pump Wisdom up to its beautiful peak. Ranger 13 however is where things get really interesting, we get Conjure Woodland Beings, and if you've read the preceding build you can guess why that's awesome: summon spellcasting NPCs!

Or not, the spell leaves your summons up to the DM unfortunately but most will at least let you summon some other spellcasting fey as long as you don't polymorph the whole party. Frankly, Pixies are better off concentrating on their lower-level spells at this level, and while their saves might be puny, passing 8 Int saves in a row is something not many creatures are capable of. If not, ask for reflections instead. strength drain is nasty no matter what level you're at. With that we've gotten all we can get out ranger so lets switch back into Ranger and grab Pact of the Tome. Blindness Deafness is a much-needed non-conc option that upcasts brilliantly, and Phantasmal Force is always a nice way to convince an enemy with one Int save to blind and mute themselves temporarily lest the swarm of centipedes encasing their head does it permanently by eating their eyes and tongue. Nasty.

*Tier 4:*
Sadly you're a half-caster so no god-mode on this build. Luckily you get Lucky which is nice to have. Warlock 5 gets you 3rd level spells such as Phantom Steed and a new invocation like Book of Ancient Secrets, which means you can cast the former as a ritual, giving you a spectral mount with 100-foot speed. Grave Touched will give you a little extra damage and then finally at 20 we get our short rest death ward. Remember all that stuff we were doing early in the build with goodberry? Now you can cast this instead on your whole party again and again, making your fellows impossible to drop below 0 hp. Not bad, not bad, not bad at all.

----------


## Justin Sane

> *The Unseelie Wander: A multi-faceted terror for those who want to join the Wild Hunt*
> 
> 
> 
> *Race:* Mountain Dwarf
> *Class:* Undead Warlock 2/Fey Wanderer 13/Undead Warlock X
> *Stats(Point-Buy):* 8 Str, 12 Dex, 13 Con, 8 Int, (15+2) Wis, (15+2) Cha


Multiclassing as Ranger requires 13 Dex.

----------


## ftafp

> Multiclassing as Ranger requires 13 Dex.


good catch. Fixed.

----------


## adb82

Hi,
i would like to ask some question about the demonweb spider build.
I was thinking to use it for a campaign that will last till lv 10/11, probably no more. More than this we dont have access to racial feats (so no elven accuracy) and neither to the half elf race, mostly of the races are homebrew, but i was considering the wood elf with +2 dex and +1 wis (there are no other elf's subraces) and +5 ft of movement, or other race providing +2 wis and +1 dex (small race, so just 25 ft movement). Actually tiefling would be the one race giving me other darkness a day, but with +1 int and +2 cha i dont think its a good way to go, there is also another race with a +2 cos +1 dex with 5 ft of movement more that is not bad maybe...but im more thinking between wood elf and variant human in this moment. The wood elf would start with 8 str, 17 dex, 14 cos, 10 int, 16 wis and 8 cha, and instead than elven accuracy he can get slasher or skill expert or even athlete, which feat do you think is going to be more useful? For the Vhuman starting stats should be 8 str, 16 dex, 14 cos, 16 wis, 10 int, 8 cha, but im still not sure if get a feat at lv 1 or just bump one between dex and wis, at the moment seem to me that start with 18 dex is better, but what do you think about it and which race do you think works better? 
Thanks for the help.

----------


## Lavaeolus

So, this has sort of been brewing on my mind since Dhampir first popped up. I wouldn't really consider this a full build so much as a hankering of an idea. I wanted a CON-based character, but only a few things fit the bill. You go Monk, you're balancing three stats. You go Fighter, the damage-loss creeps up on you. You go Rogue, you can't Sneak Attack.

Upon further reflection, I decided it really needed to be a character who wouldn't mind trading a little damage for health. But it'd need to be a tank that could draw focus even if their damage was a little piddling.

Enter...



...or, as you might prefer to call them:

*The Gothic Tank*

*Race*: Dhampir
*Level progression*: Conquest Paladin 7 -> Undead Warlock 1 -> Conquest Paladin X
*ASIs*: Max CHA and CON, Shield Master, Skill Expert (Athletics)
[If you don't mind the flavour of dumping all of INT, DEX and WIS, you can also start with STR 15 and CHA 17. Skill Expert can then be used as a CHA half-feat early on; there's no requirement you match ASI with skill. We take STR 15 primarily for Plate without speed-penalties.]

You know how it goes: there once was a Paladin, noble and bold. But whether he went down in a vampire assault or made a deal for life-everlasting, all good things must come to an end. Whether he was left alive by accident, by cruelty, or as a thrall to do his master's bidding, it's up to the Paladin to adjust to a new life -- and his new abilities. And if a holy wallclimbing semi-cannibal can't scare people straight, I don't know who can.

Not the most original of ideas, perhaps: a mash-up of Ravenloft stuff. Essentially it's a Conquest Paladin, but with a new race and quick dip taken from _Van Richten's_. Inflict fear, shut people down, knock 'em prone if that helps the team. What the Undead Warlock dip allows us to do is instill fear when we hit enemies, with a slice of temp HP on the side as gravy. Wrathful Smite and other spells are still of use, of course, but being able to lean off them is nice.

The one-level Undead Warlock dip is an obvious pick. The Dhampir is where I'm a little more concerned if what you're getting makes up for what you're losing. The Bite is d4+CON, which is low damage compared to what you could be using. But it lets you transfer those points you'd have put into STR into CON, and also lets you regain HP / boost ability checks with your bite.

Despite eventually picking up Skill Expert and being able to work with a hand free, you probably don't want to rest on grappling being your main go-to. But, yes, you can also grab people and use Dhampir's Spider Climb to drop enemies from heights, leave enemies in awkward spots, or just to generally walk around the battleground with a flexibility you lacked when mortal. You don't need to breathe, so I guess you can also drag people into lakes and other large pools of water, that classic vampire prank.

----------


## LudicSavant

> Hi,
> i would like to ask some question about the demonweb spider build.
> I was thinking to use it for a campaign that will last till lv 10/11, probably no more. More than this we dont have access to racial feats (so no elven accuracy) and neither to the half elf race, mostly of the races are homebrew, but i was considering the wood elf with +2 dex and +1 wis (there are no other elf's subraces) and +5 ft of movement, or other race providing +2 wis and +1 dex (small race, so just 25 ft movement). Actually tiefling would be the one race giving me other darkness a day, but with +1 int and +2 cha i dont think its a good way to go, there is also another race with a +2 cos +1 dex with 5 ft of movement more that is not bad maybe...but im more thinking between wood elf and variant human in this moment. The wood elf would start with 8 str, 17 dex, 14 cos, 10 int, 16 wis and 8 cha, and instead than elven accuracy he can get slasher or skill expert or even athlete, which feat do you think is going to be more useful? For the Vhuman starting stats should be 8 str, 16 dex, 14 cos, 16 wis, 10 int, 8 cha, but im still not sure if get a feat at lv 1 or just bump one between dex and wis, at the moment seem to me that start with 18 dex is better, but what do you think about it and which race do you think works better? 
> Thanks for the help.


You'll lose a bit of DPR, Constitution, and an extra cast of Darkness relative to the Elven Accuracy Half-Drow, but Wood Elf and VHuman can both work.  A VHuman can start with a full feat, and then just take ASIs after that.  For the Wood Elf that can't take Elven Accuracy, I rather like Skill Expert (which skill depends a lot on your DM / campaign / party -- Perception is usually a safe pick).  Slasher isn't terrible, either, and can help you hit'n'run with Darkness allowing free engages, or occasionally score Disadvantage when Darkness wouldn't (though I like it more on races that can make Slashing unarmed attacks).

----------


## ftafp

*The Bondage, Domination and Servitude Mountie*




> Take me down to the fire-charred counties where the law's restored by Canadian Mounties


*Race:* Canadian Custom Lineage (Small)
*Class:* Artificer 1/Enchantment Wizard 6
*Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, (13+1) Con, (15+2) Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha
*ASI:* Mounted [email protected], Fey Touched (Int +2)@5
*Spells of Note:* Thorn Whip/Magic Stone, Find Familiar, Unseen Servant, Command/Dissonant Whispers/Gift of Alacrity, Arcane Lock, Hold Person, Tiny Servant, Phantom Steed, Hypnotic Patter

*Tier 1(levels 1-4):*
Starting off with artificer, we've got great AC, Con Saves and a nice cantrip in either thorn whip or magic stone. Because guidance is such a banger of a cantrip I can't advise you to take both, but magic stone will give you a lot more damage. We also start with mounted combatant. Because they're bulkier, stronger and faster you're still going to want a large mount to work with, however the being small means you can carry allies with you without overloading your mount, or even ride those allies if they're medium. This can let you sub your superior AC in for melee characters with poor AC like monks and rogues. Admittedly, both are better off in ranged combat, but if your party is going to make bad choices, there's not much you can do but try to offset them. Switching into wizard gets us shield and a lot of extra hands. Find Familiar will be your go-to servant but you may want to keep some unseen servants on hand. I advise giving them some caltrops and ordering them to keep them under a certain enemy's feet to lock them down. Having them hold up curtains to block line of sight is nice too, but where they'll really shine is at Wizard 2 when we go enchanter and get Hypnotic Gaze. Hypnotic Gaze is a fantastic out of combat ability, but in combat some obvious limitations rear their head: you need an action to maintain the gaze, and must stay within 5 feet while maintaining. To get more use out of this we're going to need a few tricks, so let's break these down.

First up: melee range protection. Armor/shield proficiency from Artificer will ensure you're hard to hit, and if your mount goes down, Sanctuary can make you event harder to hit. Second: We need some way to get into melee and get out of it as needed. At this level getting a mount solves this problem as it will have a higher movement speed, can take the disengage actions on its own regardless of whether you succeed or fail, and a large mount can carry your unseen servants as well which offsets their low mobility. Finally: maintaining the gaze is a pain, so simply don't. While your target is hypnotized they're incapacitated, meaning your familiar and servants can easily use Manacles to handcuff your enemies hands behind their back, then they can hop back on a dash back out of melee range, all within the space of a turn. What this does exactly is up to your DM, as wotc neglected to add actual rules for the manacles, but whatever they are they're likely not very fun for your enemies.

With this now optimized, we've got a problem: our handcuffs can still be gotten out of with a DC 20 Str/Dex check. That's a decent DC, but to make things a little better at level 4 we get Arcane Lock, which will make our cuffs impossible to break without 30 Str. It won't help for those with high dex, but high dex is much rarer than high str, and a DC 20 check without proficiency is hard for a lot of creatures to manage.

Lastly, before we move on to tier 2, let's take a moment to look at Hold Person (and at higher levels Hold Monster) since like Hypnotic Gaze they'll incapacitate enemies, letting your servants chain them up freely. As a rule though, you'll want to avoid using these except on creatures immune to being charmed, as Hypnotic Pattern will usually get more targets with lower level slots.

*Tier 2 (levels 5-7):*
ASI time. Let's grab Fey Touched. Ordinarily, Gift of Alacrity is one of the best choices you can make, but as an enchanter wizard Command and Dissonant Whispers are a lot more viable, particularly the latter, as you'll get to split these enchantment spells later on. Word of advice for new players: those two spells should almost always target an enemy engaged in melee as unlike most other "forced movement" spells, these provoke attacks of opportunity because the targets are using their movement speed instead of being pushed or pulled. But enough about that, let's get back to the build. specifically, we're going to look at Wizard 5 at which point we get access to Hypnotic Pattern, Phantom Steed, Tiny Servant. The first of these has an obvious application: hypnotize and cuff multiple creatures in a single turn. Phantom Steed on the other hand greatly increase our and our party's mobility, and make mounts at lat easier to replace, but their fragility leaves something to be desired that's only partially offset by Mounted Combatant. In that case, remember that according to the PHB, you can buy an elephant for a mere 200gp. If you picked Thorn Whip that might be a better option, as being over 10 feet off the ground means that you can easily yank targets into the air, doing 1d6 falling damage and knocking them prone. You'll have to dismount to use hypnotic gaze in this case, but you can just get right back on with the same move. If you chose Magic Stone however, Tiny Servant is going to be a great pick. Like unseen servant they can handcuff multiple creatures, but unlike unseen servant they can be given standing orders to wait and handcuff any creature you incapacitate at the start of the day and they'll keep doing it until they die or you tell them to stop. If you're focusing on using Hypnotic Gaze however, those servants can toss magic stones at your enemies with standing orders while your familiar uses its action to cuff. However, bear in mind there's no reason you can't have cuff Hypnotic Pattern victims their first turn and then switch over to throwing rocks. Finally, at Wizard 6 we get Instinctive Charm. This means now not only can we redirect attacks against our mount to ourself, we can then use our reaction to redirect it from us to someone else. This redirection specifies that it must be one of the creatures closest to the target not counting you or it, so if you want to avoid them attacking your mount, a good strategy is to handcuff targets directly to your mount's stirrups and drag them around with you. How the DM rules this is up to them admittedly, but if they're ruled to be hanging off the side of your mount they can serve as a closer target for enemies more than 5 feet away. This is the primary reason why this build specifies a Small custom lineage as it will help avoid overloading your mount's carrying capacity.

*Beyond:*
With level 7 done this particular build is fully online and in terms of tricks specific to this build we're all out. There are a million and one ways to build a wizard and from here on out you have the freedom to make your own choices. Before we go though I want to bring up one technique viable you can use as well as any other wizard or warlock: Summon Greater Demon, and the magic of the readied Dimension Door

When you cast Summon Greater Demon, one of the best options is the Dybbuk with its potent control spells, its ability to reanimate the dead and its at will Dimension Door allowing it to taxi you and your allies around the battlefield. What you might not have realized is that the Dybbuk can ready its action to cast Dimension Door when an adjacent ally is about to be targeted, whisking them out of danger. It's one use per turn but it's a pick that pays off handsomely, serving as equal parts protection and battlefield control

----------


## Hairfish

As a DM, I'd certainly rule that either voluntary or involuntary movement more than 5 feet away from the target breaks Hypnotic Gaze.

Frankly, I'd probably make something bad happen to a PC who tried to rules-lawyer "I'm not moving away, it's my mount!"

----------


## ftafp

> As a DM, I'd certainly rule that either voluntary or involuntary movement more than 5 feet away from the target breaks Hypnotic Gaze.
> 
> Frankly, I'd probably make something bad happen to a PC who tried to rules-lawyer "I'm not moving away, it's my mount!"


That's fair. However, that specific technique isn't all that important to the build, so I think I'll just remove it

EDIT: made the change and added some other notes I forgot earlier. check it out

----------


## monkey3

I have a feeling I am (way) late to the party, but someone mentioned Celestial Generalist in another thread and so I found it here. I really like how the OP created what he intended (a generalist). 
I did notice something that I see many do. They talk about all the things that go well together, but you can't do them together! I would actually advise against taking Eldritch Sight on this character, if the idea (which I like) is to 24-hour hex and madden it all day. You can't do that with Detect Magic as both Hex and it are concentration. This is yet another overreach of concentration which makes casters not want to cast detect magic, pretty much at any time, since I can't remember my 5+ caster not concentrating on something.
In this case a single "free" casting of Detect Magic makes you lose your hex and, and you only get 3 of them per short rest.

----------


## Mercurias

I was looking at the new Tashas stuff and wondered if there might be some way to combine a Swarmkeeper Ranger with a Druid or Cleric. 3 levels in Ranger will give you some nice added proficiencies on top of your Swarm, plus either a fighting style or two additional Druid Cantrips.

My immediate thought was to try it with a Shepherd Druid, but honestly Shepherd Druids have a lot they might want to do other than attack with their Actions. They have pets for that sort of thing. The Swarm may not get much use.

I could see the Swarm aspect working well with a Wildfire Druid, since you could use cantrips to shift enemies around the map and onto Cauterizing Flames, and Flame Druids are offense-minded enough to get use out of the Swarm.

For theme I might combine it with a Nature Cleric, letting you be a Tanky Gish with added nature spells, heavy armor, three bonus skills, and a swarm of helpful critters to haul enemies back into the range of your Spirit Guardians.

Anyone by chance had a similar thought, or have ideas on how to refine the idea?

----------


## Schlendrian

Hello Ludic,

i am following your builds with much enjoyment. You sometimes talk about unusual tanks and i would love if you could describe the builds you do when you make control/tanking your focus with little used classes  for that like lore bards, wizards (especially the invoker and enchanter) and warlocks. 

thanks for all your work in this forum

----------


## Wraith

> I was looking at the new Tashas stuff and wondered if there might be some way to combine a Swarmkeeper Ranger with a Druid or Cleric. 3 levels in Ranger will give you some nice added proficiencies on top of your Swarm, plus either a fighting style or two additional Druid Cantrips.


I'd go with Swarmkeeper Ranger and Circle of Spores Druid, personally. The extra damage inflicted by your Swarm stacks with that inflicted by your Spores, which in turn stacks with the Shillelagh spell. At level Druid 2/Ranger 3 you're dealing 1d8+STR+2d6 which inflicts Magical Bludgeoning, Piercing and Necrotic damage for overcoming resistances, which is reasonably decent even before you add the damage from you Spore-aura. 

Pick up a dip or feat for Booming Blade as well for another d8, plus Hunter's Mark or Searing Smite for more d6's and more damage types, and things start to look interesting.

Alucard89 suggested something similar with a Spore Druid/Gloom Stalker build.

The problem with Nature Cleric is that it is, by itself, just really good because it's a Cleric. If you want armour and melee then pure cleric is probably better than a Druid dip, and for spellcasting then arguably pure either is better than splitting your spell progression. I guess Nature Cleric/Spores Druid might work for the same reason above - whatever else you do it consistently adds to your melee DPS, which might be something you'd need.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Mercurias

> I'd go with Swarmkeeper Ranger and Circle of Spores Druid, personally. The extra damage inflicted by your Swarm stacks with that inflicted by your Spores, which in turn stacks with the Shillelagh spell. At level Druid 2/Ranger 3 you're dealing 1d8+STR+2d6 which inflicts Magical Bludgeoning, Piercing and Necrotic damage for overcoming resistances, which is reasonably decent even before you add the damage from you Spore-aura. 
> 
> Pick up a dip or feat for Booming Blade as well for another d8, plus Hunter's Mark or Searing Smite for more d6's and more damage types, and things start to look interesting.
> 
> Alucard89 suggested something similar with a Spore Druid/Gloom Stalker build.
> 
> The problem with Nature Cleric is that it is, by itself, just really good because it's a Cleric. If you want armour and melee then pure cleric is probably better than a Druid dip, and for spellcasting then arguably pure either is better than splitting your spell progression. I guess Nature Cleric/Spores Druid might work for the same reason above - whatever else you do it consistently adds to your melee DPS, which might be something you'd need.


Those are extremely good points! Thanks!

----------


## Rerem115

*The Roving Scoundrel*




> A...being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyse a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
> 
> -Robert Heinlein


The Roving Scoundrel is not a build hyper-optimized for a particular task, though it is definitely capable of excelling in its chosen fields.  In fact, I don't exactly see it as a 'build', but rather a sturdy chassis with plenty of hooks it can use to hang what it needs.  While definitely a martial at its core, it blends it with magical capability, adding tools for a creative player.

*Race:* Any, though perhaps best suited to Tabaxi, Elves and Half-Elves, and Satyrs
*Level Progression:* Rogue 1>Gloom Stalker 8>Arcane Trickster 12
*Stats:* 8 STR, 17 DEX (15+2), 14 CON, 12 INT, 14 WIS (13+1), 10 CHA
*ASI:* +DEX [email protected], [email protected], +2 [email protected], rest to taste; Resilient: CON, Skilled, Skill Expert, etc.
*Recommended Skill Proficiencies:*  Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Survival, Insight, Investigation, Persuasion

*Tier 1(levels 1-4):*
Starting off with Rogue, we have the most skills of any class at this point, and 1d6 Sneak Attack to keep our damage competitive.  Expertise can go wherever, but it's difficult to go wrong with Perception and Stealth.  We'll have at least 4 by the end, so choose what you think will be most relevant for your campaign.  The rest of the tier will be Ranger, and _boy howdy_, is it front loaded.  There's an argument to be made for UA Revised Ranger's Natural Explorer+Primeval Awareness+Favored Enemy, but the options from TCoE make it really up to personal preference.  In my experience, I like UA Favored Enemy over Favored Foe and just _barely_ prefer UA Natural Explorer to Canny, but for simplicity's sake (and because TCoE is more likely to be allowed at the table) we'll be using the published variant features.  

Ranger 1, we've got an extra skill just from multiclassing, and another Expertise and 2 languages from Canny, as well as a bit more damage from Favored Foe.  Ranger 2, we've got the Archery Fighting Style and spellcasting; 2 - then 3 - Ranger spells (Absorb Elements, Zephyr Strike, last to taste), and ability to use a Druidic Focus, and a bonus in the form of Speak With Animals and Disguise Self from Primeval Awareness and Gloom Stalker.  Ranger 3 grants the aforementioned benefits, plus a pseudo-Extra Attack, plus WIS to Initiative, plus Darkvision, plus becoming Invisible in the shadows

You are _slippery_, even without Cunning Action; Zephyr Strike gives the benefits of a Disengage for a minute, as well as a Dash you can use once per cast.  You've got durability, mobility, and plenty of utility in your myriad skills.  You can frontline if need be; carrying a melee weapon and a shield isn't much of a tax, but you are primarily a skirmisher and skill monkey.  If you need a party face, your proficiencies - maybe even Expertise - in Insight and Persuasion can come into play, or you can lean harder into the rugged survival aspect embodied by Rangers and focus more on tracking and survival with your spell and skill choices.

*Tier 2 (levels 5-9):*
Our first ASI!  If you're an Elf, consider Elven Accuracy.  Small races should consider Squat Nimbleness.  If neither of those apply, Piercer is great for those who want more damage, and Skill Expert is just solid all around.  Or, if the 2020 Psionics UA is on the table, Wild Talent is _amazing_.  A floating die you can add to Initiative and other Dexterity checks that _also_ can be used to shore up poor damage rolls is nothing to sneeze at.

Once you've picked your ASI, don't worry if you're a level behind other Martials for Extra Attack; you've got spell damage, Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy/Foe, and the first turn surge of Gloom Stalker helping you hold on until CL 6.  Speaking of, Extra Attack isn't the only good thing you get in these levels.  You get 4 more Ranger Spells (Rope Trick, Beast Sense, Pass Without Trace, the last as desired), a Bonus Action Dash, 5 more feet of movement, a swim speed, a climb speed, proficiency in Wisdom Saving Throws, the ability to ignore non-magical difficult terrain, and another ASI, this one going into Sharpshooter.

Our damage is great, as is our mobility and our ability to _shut down_ spellcasters with vision denial and burst damage.  We can escort the team into places they normally couldn't reach with Pass Without Trace, and camp out with Rope Trick.  

*Beyond:*
From here, you go straight Rogue, using Sneak Attack, Cunning Action: Hide and Cunning Action: Aim to scale your damage.  Meanwhile, Mage Hand Legerdemain, Find Familiar, and all the juicy Illusion and Enchantment spells give you more tools to use both in and out of combat, right at the levels when magic starts being _really_ commonplace.  Evasion and Uncanny Dodge keep your defenses relevant, and it's also a good time to pick up +2 Dexterity and Resilient: CON, with all other ASIs going towards your particular vision of your character.

----------


## LudicSavant

> Hello Ludic,
> 
> i am following your builds with much enjoyment. You sometimes talk about unusual tanks and i would love if you could describe the builds you do when you make control/tanking your focus with little used classes  for that like lore bards, wizards (especially the invoker and enchanter) and warlocks. 
> 
> thanks for all your work in this forum


Okay!  It's on my to-do list.  Which... continues to have too many things on it.  But I made progress on a writeup for a Frontliner Lore Bard writeup today!  Stay tuned!   :Small Smile: 




> I have a feeling I am (way) late to the party, but someone mentioned Celestial Generalist in another thread and so I found it here. I really like how the OP created what he intended (a generalist). 
> I did notice something that I see many do. They talk about all the things that go well together, but you can't do them together! I would actually advise against taking Eldritch Sight on this character, if the idea (which I like) is to 24-hour hex and madden it all day. You can't do that with Detect Magic as both Hex and it are concentration. This is yet another overreach of concentration which makes casters not want to cast detect magic, pretty much at any time, since I can't remember my 5+ caster not concentrating on something.
> In this case a single "free" casting of Detect Magic makes you lose your hex and, and you only get 3 of them per short rest.


Hello and welcome to the party Monkey3!  You're not too late, I always read feedback on any and all of my builds.  I sometimes even go back and add extra tips'n'tricks to the old ones, so anyone should feel free to speak up!

You're right that you can't spam Eldritch Sight while maintaining Concentration on something else, but it still offers some versatility even if you aren't using it all the time.  You don't need to have Hex on all the time (even if you pre-cast it and it lasts 24 hours, your Concentration can break naturally.  Or you can just drop it when the need arises -- your first cast is basically "free" as a "1-hour morning ritual" so it's not super high cost if you drop it).

However, that said, I do think that if I were making the build just for myself (rather than demonstrating how I could fill everything on Mjolnirbear's checklist with a single character) I _usually_ would pick one of the utility invocations that do not require Concentration instead, especially with some of the shiny new choices available to Tomelocks these days (like Far Scribe or Gift of the Protectors, both of which I think are really good).  Precisely because of the things you're talking about.

You might be interested to look at the second Celestial Warlock I posted on this thread, the Celestial Giftlock / Ever-Living Generalist (which isn't trying to fit anyone's criteria but my own).  I'd be curious to hear your feedback on that one!

----------


## CrowOfJudgement

Hi all, don't know how much people will care about this but I also just wanted to put this out here. I found this thread a while back through sheer luck and I've been absolutely in love with it since. I check back here constantly to see what people have added. I have a serious addiction to creating characters, and this thread has been incredibly helpful in feeding that addiction. I've made characters based off every build posted in this thread. Took absolutely ages to catch up, and I know I'll still be doing it for a while as long as you're all being your brilliant selves, but I just wanted to thank everyone for the wonderful time I've had doing this.

With that said, I have an organized list of every build in this thread, including ones that haven't been linked in the second post, so I'd be happy to help if it's needed Ludic!

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## Wraith

> With that said, I have an organized list of every build in this thread, including ones that haven't been linked in the second post, so I'd be happy to help if it's needed Ludic!


I got tired after 106, but you're very welcome to collab if you would like to?  :Small Smile:

----------


## ftafp

*Owl-Cowl: A pokemon-inspired ranger-danger that spells death from above*

*Race:* Medium Owlfolk
*Class Split:* Twilight Cleric 2/Gloom Stalker 18
*Progression:* Twilight Cleric 1, Ranger 1 -> Gloom Stalker 5, Twilight Cleric 2, Gloom Stalker 6 -> 18
*Stats:* 8 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 14 Wis, 10 Cha
*ASI:* [email protected], Crossbow [email protected], +2 [email protected],+2 [email protected]
*Fighting Style:* Archery
*Expertise:* Stealth
*Spells of Note:* Guidance, Bless, Command, Sleep, Healing Word, Goodberry, Entangle, Aid, Pass Without Trace, Rope Trick, Conjure Animals, Fear, Plant Growth, Revivify, Conjure Woodland Beings, Greater Invisibility

*Tier 1 (1-4): Rowlet*
Okay, let me break down how this is going to go. At level 1 you're a twilight cleric which gives you so many goddam abilities it's not even funny, plus we've got a fly speed. Indoors, we try to stay 10 feet up at all times so we're out of melee In outdoor battles our strategy hinges on how many other players know healing spells. If it's more than 1 stay 150 feet up and pick off enemies with your longbow from outside their range, which is even better at night because few creatures have darkvision as good as you do. Otherwise, only stay 90 feet up so you can swoop down and heal allies at a moment's notice while still being out of range of many weapons and spells. You will only maintain the latter strategy until Ranger 2 at which point you get Goodberry and can switch to the former. Each party member should always have at least 1 goodberry on them at a time to revive allies. They last 24 hours so if you have spell slots left over at the end of the day, spend it on this before you go to bed, or better yet when you take watch. Otherwise, cast it once at the start of the day.

Note now that we did not take hunter's mark, that's because you'll be doing far more for your party AND for you by using your spell slots for Bless or Entangle. The latter can be crippling to enemies as not only does it make them easier to hit with both attacks and blasts, but it makes it harder for them to hit you, locks them out of melee range, requires an action just to make a check to get out of, and even if they do they have to trudge through difficult terrain to get into melee. If your enemies are casters though, Bless is a safer bet.

*Tier 2 (5-10): Dartrix*
Tier 2 starts with Sharpshooter, which not only adds to our damage but increases our already massive maximum range, and lets us ignore half and 3-quarters cover. At this point with your range, your sight, your accuracy and your invisibility at night, you are basicaly invincible with the night sky at your back. That was already awesome but it really kicks off at 6 when you get extra attack and access to Pass Without Trace and Rope Trick. These spells are basically cheat codes. The former can make your whole party basically undetectable and all but guarantees a surprise round, and the second can give your party an invisible bunker that they can run into mid combat and pick enemies off from by popping out, shooting and popping back in again. Aid is another good spell at this level, you can either cast it during watch with goodberry to give your whole party a max hp boost, but if enough party members go down you can also use it as a mass healing spell. This may be an opportunity often as many fights take place indoors. Fret not, at level 7 you get Twilight Sanctuary, which means that during indoor battles we can give our whole party temp hp every single turn. Finally, at 10 we get Crossbow Expert and trade our longbow in for a hand crossbow. This has a shorter long range of 120 feet our outdoor max height is going to drop to 135 feet which is still out of range of most spells and weapons

*Tier 3 (11-16): Decidueye*
Thank you for your patience, it's now Giant Owl Suicide Bomber time. At this level 11 your must-pick spell is Conjure Animals, which your combat strategy will become disgustingly simple
Activate your Twilight SanctuaryCast Conjure animals to summon 8+ Giant Owls about 80 feet above the battlefield and within range of your twilight shieldGive your owls orders to go prone above enemy heads with 5 feet of their movement. This will cause them to drop 80 feet, dealing 4d6 to both them and whoever they land on, knocking them prone with a DC 15 Dex save (As per Tasha's Cauldron of Everything)The minute they land, have them pop back up with half their speed, then dash back up skyward, not taking any attacks of opportunity because of flybygrant them temp hp when they end their turn in the twilight sanctuaryrepeat

This arial bombardment can do 4d6 per Owl per turn. (or up to 10d6 if you care more about nova damage than sustained carnage). Even better, this damage ignores nonmagic bludgeoning resistance/immunity, as non-magic resistances usually only apply to attacks.  At level 11 you can potentially subject a single target to as much as 280 damage with a single 3rd level spell slot, and that value only scales when you 5th level slots

----------


## Quietus

> *Tier 3 (11-16): Decidueye*
> Thank you for your patience, it's now Giant Owl Suicide Bomber time. At this level 11 your must-pick spell is Conjure Animals, which your combat strategy will become disgustingly simple
> Activate your Twilight SanctuaryCast Conjure animals to summon 8+ Giant Owls about 80 feet above the battlefield and within range of your twilight shieldGive your owls orders to go prone above enemy heads with 5 feet of their movement. This will cause them to drop 80 feet, dealing 4d6 to both them and whoever they land on, knocking them prone with a DC 15 Dex save (As per Tasha's Cauldron of Everything)The minute they land, have them pop back up with half their speed, then dash back up skyward, not taking any attacks of opportunity because of flybygrant them temp hp when they end their turn in the twilight sanctuaryrepeat
> 
> This arial bombardment can do 4d6 per Owl per turn. (or up to 10d6 if you care more about nova damage than sustained carnage). Even better, this damage ignores nonmagic bludgeoning resistance/immunity, as non-magic resistances usually only apply to attacks.  At level 11 you can potentially subject a single target to as much as 280 damage with a single 3rd level spell slot, and that value only scales when you 5th level slots


Flyby wouldn't work here.  You're not making attacks, you're belly flopping.  No attack action was taken, and therefore your giant owls will proc opportunity attacks as they leave.  Perhaps not a huge deal, but worth pointing out.

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## Frogreaver

> Flyby wouldn't work here.  You're not making attacks, you're belly flopping.  No attack action was taken, and therefore your giant owls will proc opportunity attacks as they leave.  Perhaps not a huge deal, but worth pointing out.


Flyby isn't mobile.  

"Flyby. The owl doesn't provoke opportunity attacks when it flies out of an enemy's reach."

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## Justin Sane

> *Owl-Cowl: A pokemon-inspired ranger-danger that spells death from above*


This is absolutely ridiculous, and I love everything about it.

----------


## Quietus

> Flyby isn't mobile.  
> 
> "Flyby. The owl doesn't provoke opportunity attacks when it flies out of an enemy's reach."


I stand corrected!

----------


## JerryGibbs

I'm making an arcana cleric gish with standard array, but with a slight variance from the normal VHuman/CL.
I have two different builds that im looking at, using the vadahar elf for shillelagh. (high elf re-flavored with druid cantrip from planeshift: kaladesh)
Both builds end with 8, 14, 16, 12, 20, 10. 
1st build has azorius background for counterspell, feats - warcaster, resilient:con, crusher, and fey-touched for misty step and dissonant whispers. 
2nd build has either rakdos background for dissonant whispers or azorius for counterspell again. feats - warcaster, polearm master, and crusher. 
2nd build tries to make better use of opportunity attacks but becomes even more bonus action heavy. 
Any opinions? Just wondering if the PAM build is worth it over the non?

1st build is a bit more defensive. 2nd build pushes the opportunity attacks at the cost of res con and some other stuff. I wouldn't be using the bonus action from the feat, just the opportunity attack to punish npcs that attack me or try to move away.

Telekinetic is also a possibility, but the character is already so bonus action heavy. This allows for using dodge on the action and bonus action tele shoving. I rate it lower than the other options.

Thanks for any advice!

p.s. we also have an ancients paladin in the party to help with saves.

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## Maan

> Any opinions? Just wondering if the PAM build is worth it over the non?


I think you are already aware of the problem. As you say, this build already has a lot of uses for the Bonus Action (Spiritual Weapon, Healing Word and Mass Healing Word immediately come to mind). And if take PAM just to reinforce the OAs you are pretty much discarding a third of the Feat.

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## LudicSavant

> I'm making an arcana cleric gish with standard array, but with a slight variance from the normal VHuman/CL.
> I have two different builds that im looking at, using the vadahar elf for shillelagh. (high elf re-flavored with druid cantrip from planeshift: kaladesh)
> Both builds end with 8, 14, 16, 12, 20, 10. 
> 1st build has azorius background for counterspell, feats - warcaster, resilient:con, crusher, and fey-touched for misty step and dissonant whispers. 
> 2nd build has either rakdos background for dissonant whispers or azorius for counterspell again. feats - warcaster, polearm master, and crusher. 
> 2nd build tries to make better use of opportunity attacks but becomes even more bonus action heavy. 
> Any opinions? Just wondering if the PAM build is worth it over the non?
> 
> 1st build is a bit more defensive. 2nd build pushes the opportunity attacks at the cost of res con and some other stuff. I wouldn't be using the bonus action from the feat, just the opportunity attack to punish npcs that attack me or try to move away.
> ...


Personally I'm not a big fan of the PAM/Crusher build.

- Your feat/ASI progression is too slow.  Wisdom is important.

- Crusher is much less beneficial for Clerics than it is for many other characters, for three mains reasons.  1)  You're actually _freeing them_ from your Warcaster pressure if you're disengaging via knockback.  2)  As single-attack characters, Clerics do not crit often, and thus benefit little from the Advantage-generation effect.  3)  The stat boost is not especially helpful for you.  

- PAM's bonus action is basically worthless for you.  Attack + Bonus Action attack is worse than just using Booming Blade.  Also, you already have strong bonus actions.

- PAM's reaction can totally wreck individual melee-reliant enemies with 5-foot reach, but I feel like Arcana Clerics kind of _already_ wreck those enemies.  And if you're dealing with a small number of big beatstick enemies (like giants), there's a fair chance they have reach anyways (especially by the time you manage to get all these feats; you're going to be high level by then!).  So to me it feels like doubling down on a matchup that you're already probably winning, at the cost of other matchups that I care about more.

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## JerryGibbs

> Personally I'm not a big fan of the PAM/Crusher build.
> 
> - Your feat/ASI progression is too slow.  Wisdom is important.
> 
> - Crusher is much less beneficial for Clerics than it is for many other characters, for three mains reasons.  1)  You're actually _freeing them_ from your Warcaster pressure if you're disengaging via knockback.  2)  As single-attack characters, Clerics do not crit often, and thus benefit little from the Advantage-generation effect.  3)  The stat boost is not especially helpful for you.  
> 
> - PAM's bonus action is basically worthless for you.  Attack + Bonus Action attack is worse than just using Booming Blade.  Also, you already have strong bonus actions.
> 
> - PAM's reaction can totally wreck individual melee-reliant enemies with 5-foot reach, but I feel like Arcana Clerics kind of _already_ wreck those enemies.  And if you're dealing with a small number of big beatstick enemies (like giants), there's a fair chance they have reach anyways (especially by the time you manage to get all these feats; you're going to be high level by then!).  So to me it feels like doubling down on a matchup that you're already probably winning, at the cost of other matchups that I care about more.



Thank you so much for the advice. I had to finish off character creation yesterday and I came to the same conclusions. I ditched crusher and pam and I'm focusing more on warcaster, bumping wis quickly, and res:con. I'm still left with fey touched and a half feat of choice.

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## SleepThief

I'd like to make a build request! Anyone can fill it, I'd love to see ideas. I've started thinking about using a druid as an infiltrator/thief type of character. I realize it's not exactly an original idea, but I've been wondering how one would optimize using Wildshape in this fashion. Assume stats aren't an issue, the DM I play with has us roll until we have at least two 15's or above, so multiclassing isn't out of the question, as well as the custom lineage rules for racial stat bonuses.

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## stoutstien

> I'd like to make a build request! Anyone can fill it, I'd love to see ideas. I've started thinking about using a druid as an infiltrator/thief type of character. I realize it's not exactly an original idea, but I've been wondering how one would optimize using Wildshape in this fashion. Assume stats aren't an issue, the DM I play with has us roll until we have at least two 15's or above, so multiclassing isn't out of the question, as well as the custom lineage rules for racial stat bonuses.


Depending on how your DM runs the level 6 feature a dream druid can be an absolute beast at moving about unseen. I would go deep gnome for access to at will nondetection. Every circle feature works while in wild shapes and the capstone can turn you into a Trojan horse (spider). A small dip in rogue for expertise and CA and that's about all it would take.

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## Lavaeolus

*In terms of Wild Shape*, I think simpler is better. Spiders, ravens and cats are all examples of Tiny beasts with statblocks that could prowl around a city mostly without people batting an eye, the spider in particular being able to get just about anywhere that's not magically floating in the sky. Rats are also an option, but people are more likely to react negatively to seeing them. Granted, arachnophobes are a thing, but a lot of people are probably willing to turn an eye to an individual spider.

Bats have blindsight, which might of use, and there are a few other forest critters like hares, weasels and badgers that could be worth using to spy without being noticed, depending on environment. The downside is that these common-animal forms are fragile, usually with just 1 hitpoint, but they're all creatures you're likely to have seen, won't draw attention, and will be available early on.

*Otherwise*, note that all Druids can pick up Pass Without Trace and have access to a fair few divination spells. They'll have high WIS, which will help with Insight/Perception checks and such, but are SAD enough to maintain a decent score elsewhere. I'd consider Dexterity (for Stealth) or Charisma (for manipulation), although there's probably no need to maximise the latter so long as you pick the right proficiencies. Speak with Plants can also be useful for information-gathering. Fools that they are, few ever think "We must speak in private, let's make sure no grass is nearby."

*In terms of multiclass options*, well, this is a concept that I think can work single-class fine. A spellcaster should always be weighing up multiclass benefits against getting more and better spells. Rogue'll get you Expertise and Cunning Action, which may come in handy although is mainly an option if your DM really rewards skill-proficiency. I _wanted_ to suggest Monk, but without further investment you'd really just be getting Unarmored Defense for your forms.

Cleric, meanwhile, is a generally solid dip that can be rewarding with just one level, although some of what it offers might not be as valuable to most Druids. Twilight Cleric seems like it could be tied in thematically and has its charms, although given you're probably not likely to get much use out of heavy-armor or martial-weapons, I don't know if it's really worth taking a level just for long-range darkvision.

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## Wraith

> If you're taking requests, I was just now wondering that if you could, how would you build Trevor Belmont from Castlevania?
> 
> I think he might be some sort of mix of a paladin and Monster Hunter, wielding a flail, a whip, or both, and a short sword, switching between them as needed. Athletic and acrobatic AF, as well  as both strong and agile.


I think you have pretty much got it spot on - Monster Slayer makes perfect sense thematically, and I see Trevor as a DEX build since he doesn't wear metal armour and although physically fit and athletic he's typically not stronger than most other humans. I think he'd have Two-Weapon Fighting as his Fighting Style in order to alternate between his short sword and whip/morning star as required, though he's not really an outdoors kind of person so he'd probably stop taking Ranger at level 7, picking up Supernatural Defence but not necessarily Land's Stride.

I think that Paladin is also a great call, with Smite standing in for the explosive effect of his Morning Star sacred weapon.
Oath of Glory Paladin probably fits his abilities, although the theme is a little wonky. The subclass spells are mostly self-buffs like Heroism, Magic Weapon and Enhance Ability which suit his athletic ability and apparent lack of magical skill - he's not one to throw around fireballs, but having been 'trained to be a warrior' he could get away with bursts of strength and speed. Similarly, the Peerless Athlete divine channelling seems perfect for representing his prowess and acrobatic fighting style.

If not Glory, then Vengeance works quite well, too - thematically more appropriate, and similar self-buffs and abilities that make himself a better warrior rather than causing AoE damage like Sypher, or obviously supernatural shapechanging and telekinesis like Alucard.

Finally a dip into Rogue for Expertise (Athletics) and a little Sneak Attack? He's not above fighting dirty, but that's just pragmatism rather than dedication to a fighting style, so I don't see him as having a Rogue Subclass.

Monster Slayer Ranger (7), Rogue (2), Glory Paladin 11
Two-Weapon Fighting, Peerless Athlete, Expertise (Athletics)
Feats: Alert, Defensive Duellist (Or Duel Wielder?), Lucky

Seems about right, to me. I *might* have swapped Monster Slayer Ranger for Battle Master Fighter if I just wanted him to be better at fighting things and employing martial training "tricks", but either is pretty close.

----------


## SleepThief

> Depending on how your DM runs the level 6 feature a dream druid can be an absolute beast at moving about unseen. I would go deep gnome for access to at will nondetection. Every circle feature works while in wild shapes and the capstone can turn you into a Trojan horse (spider). A small dip in rogue for expertise and CA and that's about all it would take.


Hmm, yeah I don't think the 6th lvl feature would be that useful for moving around, since it stipulates that it has to be during a rest and vanishes at the end of such rest, which you would end if you did anything more strenuous than keeping watch.




> *In terms of Wild Shape*, I think simpler is better. Spiders, ravens and cats are all examples of Tiny beasts with statblocks that could prowl around a city mostly without people batting an eye, the spider in particular being able to get just about anywhere that's not magically floating in the sky. Rats are also an option, but people are more likely to react negatively to seeing them. Granted, arachnophobes are a thing, but a lot of people are probably willing to turn an eye to an individual spider.
> 
> Bats have blindsight, which might of use, and there are a few other forest critters like hares, weasels and badgers that could be worth using to spy without being noticed, depending on environment. The downside is that these common-animal forms are fragile, usually with just 1 hitpoint, but they're all creatures you're likely to have seen, won't draw attention, and will be available early on.
> 
> *Otherwise*, note that all Druids can pick up Pass Without Trace and have access to a fair few divination spells. They'll have high WIS, which will help with Insight/Perception checks and such, but are SAD enough to maintain a decent score elsewhere. I'd consider Dexterity (for Stealth) or Charisma (for manipulation), although there's probably no need to maximise the latter so long as you pick the right proficiencies. Speak with Plants can also be useful for information-gathering. Fools that they are, few ever think "We must speak in private, let's make sure no grass is nearby."
> 
> *In terms of multiclass options*, well, this is a concept that I think can work single-class fine. A spellcaster should always be weighing up multiclass benefits against getting more and better spells. Rogue'll get you Expertise and Cunning Action, which may come in handy although is mainly an option if your DM really rewards skill-proficiency. I _wanted_ to suggest Monk, but without further investment you'd really just be getting Unarmored Defense for your forms.
> 
> Cleric, meanwhile, is a generally solid dip that can be rewarding with just one level, although some of what it offers might not be as valuable to most Druids. Twilight Cleric seems like it could be tied in thematically and has its charms, although given you're probably not likely to get much use out of heavy-armor or martial-weapons, I don't know if it's really worth taking a level just for long-range darkvision.


I didn't realise that Pass Without Trace was a druid class spell somehow, perhaps I was more concerned with finding sources of Invisibility, but that definitely opens it up more. As for the class dips, rogue probably gets more bang for buck there with Expertise and Cunning Action, and starting as rogue would get more skill proficiencies in. And unless I went for Moon druid, taking a dip in monk seems too much for just a level when druid needs investment for Wildshape forms with flight early on.

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## LudicSavant

Big update!  All of the following builds have been added to the first page:

The Road Rash Wrestler by WraithThe Kraken by Sol0botmateThe Umbral Messiah by ftafpHeaven's Commando by Citadel97501Ambulatory Tank by LumenPlacidumThe War Princess:  Master of Malicious Minionmancy by ftafpThe Fire Marshal by ftafpThe Sanguine Bastion by Rerem115The Blazing Boa by DalinarThe Whisperer in the Dark by ftafpThe Thundering Cleric by LumenPlacidumThe Counterer of Spells by Jon talks a lotDrink Your Way to Valhalla by Jon talks a lotCaliban by RingoBongoThe Joestar Special by DalinarThe Rave Queen by Jon talks a lotEveryone's Best Friend by EvaarLiterally Luke Skywalker by RenduazThe Oxymoronic Meat Grinder by Wraith(Angelic Variant on Oxymoronic Meat Grinder) by Citadel97501The Wagoneer by ftafpThe d6 Piercer by RihnoSoulknife Generalist by LumenPlacidumArcane Knight by RihnoThe Farfire Visionary by RenduazKorg - the Push by HousterThe Eye of Annihilation by WraithThe Ring Leader by EvaarThe Hobgoblin Battle Commander by NCatThe Hex Grappler by Jon talks a lotSparky McDibben's Way of the Demonweb Pits SubclassBreath of the Twin-Headed Dragon by WraithThe Cerulean City Sorlock: A Build for the Pokemon Trainer In Your Heart by ftafpThe Unseelie Wander: A multi-faceted terror for those who want to join the Wild Hunt by ftafpThe Spooky Scary Paladin aka The Gothic Tank by LavaeolusThe Bondage, Domination, and Servitude Mountie by ftafpThe Roving Scoundrel by Rerem115Owl-Cowl: A pokemon-inspired ranger-danger that spells death from above by ftafp

Please let me know if I missed any!

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## Bardon

Wow, we're up to 120 builds here!  This is such an impressive community resource and it says a lot about the people putting in the effort and sharing their ideas, in particular of course the one who started this thread, @LudicSavant!

Kudos to all involved!

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## ZRN

> Big update!  All of the following builds have been added to the first page:


Hi Ludic, you mentioned in another thread that you'd had a lot of luck playing, I believe, an evoker tank build? Is that already somewhere in this thread, and if not, would you mind linking/elaborating? Thanks!

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## Mitchellnotes

Alright, I have another build! Introducing the Alienist - a take on the fathomless warlock! I've always loved the Alienist from 3.5, though there isn't as much support for summoning in 5e. I've been recently thinking about the fathomless warlock, and found a way to combine the two ideas! At the core of this build is the fathomless warlock, though it is going to be flavored a bit more like the Great Old One. The idea is that what the Alienist calls forth isn't necessarily a "tentacle from the deep" but rather an extradimensional being. If you think about how a 2d world would envision a 3d creature interacting with it (they would essentially see the intersection of the 3d creature in their 2d space), the tentacle and flavor of what is being called forth is similar in that it is a being from a higher dimensional plane interacting with a 3d world (like how a tesseract is shown as an evolving 3d shape). The alienist is going to focus spell selection on things that are going to fit this theme (more psionic type spells, more spells related to knowledge or magic in general, cold related to the chill of the "vast endlessness between worlds") and less on things like summoning fiends, etc (though there will still be a few things). Due to this overall flavor, I wanted a race that focused more on the psionic and may have some ties to outer-wordly things...and thought of the githyanki! This is going to use the tasha's optional rules to switch some stats around.

For a patron, a githyanki alienist has a lot of different options given the lore. It could be a inscrutable primordial entity that goes back to a time when the gith were still dominated by mind flayers, it could be an entity that is deep in the astral plane, or it could even be Gith herself (or an entity connected to Tiamat!). A githyanki also provides a bit more support on the psionic end as well as medium armor proficiency. I am going to lay out an example build to 11 (to get the bonuses at 10 as well as the third spell slot and first mystic arcanum). After that, you could keep leveling warlock, or multiclass into something else. Sorcerer and fighter both could provide benefit (action surge and metamagic). One could also start as a fighter and then pick up fighter 2 later down the road (probably after at least level 5 in lock). Also, no background has been identified, so there should be a couple of additional skills available as well

Gith FathomLock

Githyanki

Starting stats:
Str: 8
Dex: 14 (13+1)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 17 (15+2) (18 @ 4) (20 @ 8)

Languages, skills, and tools
Common, Gith, Abyssal
Arcana, deception, perception
Simple weapons, short sword, long sword, great sword
Light armor, medium armor
Githyanki psionics: mage hand, jump (3rd), misty step (5th)

Warlock 1
Saves in Wis and Cha
Fathomless warlock: gift of the sea, tentacle of the deep
Spells: Level 1 / 1 slot
Armor of agathys, Hex
Cantrips: Eldritch blast, mind sliver, (mage hand)

Warlock 2
Spells: Level 1 / 2 slots
Protection from evil
Invocations: Agonizing blast, repelling blast

Warlock 3
Pact of the Tome
Spells: Level 2 / 2 slots
Suggestion, gust of wind, -hex, (find familiar, detect magic)
Cantrips: light, guidance, mending
Invocations: -repelling blast, +book of ancient secrets

Warlock 4
ASI: fey touched
Spells: Level 2 / 2 slots
Comprehend languages, (misty step, command)
Cantrip: create bonfire

Warlock 5
Spells: Level 3 / 2 slots
Lightning bolt, hunger of hadar, -comprehend languages

Invocations: Repelling blast

Warlock 6
Fathomless: guardian coil, oceanic soul
Spells: Level 3 / 2 slots
Hypnotic pattern, summon shadowspawn, -suggestion

Warlock 7
Spells: Level 4 / 2 slots
Banishment, Dispel magic, -prot from evil

Invocations: Eldritch Mind

Warlock 8
ASI (+2 cha)
Spells: Level 4 / 2 slots
Counterspell, fly,  -gust of wind

Warlock 9
Spells: Level 5 / 2 slots
Synaptic static, Bigby's hand, -summon shadowspawn

Invocations: gift of the protectors

Warlock 10
Fathomless: Grasping tentacles
Spells: Level 5 / 2 slots
(Evard's black tentacles), contact other plane, -hunger of hadar
Cantrip: minor illusion

Warlock 11
Spells: Level 5 / 3 slots
Scrying, cone of cold, -Contact other plane
Mystic arcanum: Mass Suggestion

----------


## LudicSavant

> Hi Ludic, you mentioned in another thread that you'd had a lot of luck playing, I believe, an evoker tank build? Is that already somewhere in this thread, and if not, would you mind linking/elaborating? Thanks!


Basically it's a variant of the Nuclear Wizard.  The Hexblade dip gives you everything you need to survive on the front line, and the Evoker gives you an _extremely_ strong pressure game (for example, you can do the Magic Missile combo on a Warcaster OA.  Not to mention having things like Potent Toll the Dead, Empowered Evocation familiar-advantage Booming Blade, or Empowered Potent Frostbite as cantrip OA options), as well a ton of control tricks (like I always say, Evocation isn't just the school of Fireball, it's the school of Walls!  And putting your teammates inside of Sculpted hazard spells!), and you have things like Armor of Agathys, or Contingent Overchanneled Fire Shield, and Counterspell, all of which don't eat your Concentration.  And of course you get all the "these spells are more like major class features" spells like Find Familiar and Simulacrum.  Oh, and you qualify for Inspiring Leader because of that 13 Cha you took to qualify for Hexblade.

Also of note, Hexvokers are _really hard_ to run out of first level spell slots, because of the combination of Wizard slots + Warlock slots + Arcane Recovery providing up to 17 level 1 slots in a "standard adventuring day."  Even as early as level 4, you'd have 9x level 1 slots in a day with 2 short rests (3 from Warlock, 4 from Wizard, 2 from Arcane Recovery).  

Despite playing in a game where 6+ encounters a day was commonplace, I basically never had to worry about running out of Shields or Absorb Elements or the like.

Your range is also very flexible, you fight and lockdown control people whether you're close or far away, so you're free to rotate in and out as you please -- enemies basically can't focus anyone down.  Oh, and your familiar is like a better version of Healing Word (because they can feed people cheap Healing Potions).  And a ton of other tricks... Wizards have too many for me to list in a post.

And of course, you're still a Nuclear Wizard who can just outright delete an enemy if you decide they're too dangerous to permit to exist.

You basically have a good answer to every kind of enemy, whether it's mook swarms, big melee guys, enemy casters, ranged kiters, mental assaults, whatever. 

I've often said that being a tank (rather than just a turtle) is about sabotaging the enemy's decision tree.  Well in this case, the enemy's decision tree is made out of lava.  They do what you want them to do, or die.

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## mw_147

Hey, long time lurker here and a huge fan of the builds. There are so many that I keep swapping between which I want to try next. The latest to catch my eye is the Demonweb Spider. Never really been interested in playing a monk but my head has been turned. Quick question, Ludic, you mention the build gets 7 attacks a turn a few times in the thread, is that including one as a reaction? I'm not sure where the 7th is coming from otherwise, because I only count Attack, Extra Attack, Flurry of Blows x 2 then two more attacks from Action Surge. 

Thanks, can't wait to see more awesome builds.

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## LudicSavant

> Hey, long time lurker here and a huge fan of the builds. There are so many that I keep swapping between which I want to try next. The latest to catch my eye is the Demonweb Spider. Never really been interested in playing a monk but my head has been turned. Quick question, Ludic, you mention the build gets 7 attacks a turn a few times in the thread, is that including one as a reaction? I'm not sure where the 7th is coming from otherwise, because I only count Attack, Extra Attack, Flurry of Blows x 2 then two more attacks from Action Surge.


The 7 attacks case is including the reaction attack.  You get one if an enemy moves into your reach (Brace), misses you (Riposte) or moves away from you (OA).

Interestingly, Brace works off your reach, rather than "within 5 feet" or the like, so it can benefit from using a whip as your Monk weapon.

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## mw_147

> The 7 attacks case is including the reaction attack.  You get one if an enemy moves into your reach (Brace), misses you (Riposte) or moves away from you (OA).
> 
> Interestingly, Brace works off your reach, rather than "within 5 feet" or the like, so it can benefit from using a whip as your Monk weapon.


Ah, cool. I suspected it would be one of the reaction options, I just wasn't 100% sure and thought I might be missing something. Thanks :)

----------


## masterjoda99

Ludic, with a DM who (understandably) houserules it so that the hexblade curse only applies to the first missile of a magic missile barrage, what other methods does a nuclear wizard have to just straight up delete problematic enemies?

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## Hairfish

> Ludic, with a DM who (understandably) houserules it so that the hexblade curse only applies to the first missile of a magic missile barrage, what other methods does a nuclear wizard have to just straight up delete problematic enemies?


Hex damage not working at all with spells that don't make attack rolls is both RAW and RAI.

e: Whoops, reading comprehension for the win. Hexblade curse adding proficiency bonus to MM damage rolls works just fine RAW.

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## Justin Sane

> Hex damage not working at all with spells that don't make attack rolls is both RAW and RAI.


Hexblade's Curse (the class feature) =/= Hex (the spell).

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## Korkin

Hey Ludic, I was taking a look at the Valkyrie Paladin, and I'm not sure how you got the 200 DPR against AC 20. Based on your calculator, with a +15 to hit, 3 attacks (1 normal, 1 from extra attack, 1 from haste) dealing 1d10+1d8+9 with GWF, 1 bonus action attack dealing 1d6+1d8+9, and using 5th level smites on crits, I only end up with 110 DPR against AC 20. What am I missing here?

----------


## LudicSavant

> Hey Ludic, I was taking a look at the Valkyrie Paladin, and I'm not sure how you got the 200 DPR against AC 20. Based on your calculator, with a +15 to hit, 3 attacks (1 normal, 1 from extra attack, 1 from haste) dealing 1d10+1d8+9 with GWF, 1 bonus action attack dealing 1d6+1d8+9, and using 5th level *smites on crits*, I only end up with 110 DPR against AC 20. *What am I missing here?*


It's using smites even on non-crits for the "full nova combo" calculation.  




> Ludic, with a DM who (understandably) houserules it so that the hexblade curse only applies to the first missile of a magic missile barrage, what other methods does a nuclear wizard have to just straight up delete problematic enemies?


When I play Hexvokers, I spend a lot of my slots casting AoEs, sculpted hazard spells, action economy booster spells (like Crown of Stars or Dragon's Breath), walls, etc.  Whatever the situation calls for.  So even without any houserules, it's about a lot more than just Magic Missile (after all, Hexblade's Curse is just 1/short rest, and I'm often fighting multiple opponents).

Hexvokers have a _lot_ of ways to kill people.  So many, in fact, that I doubt I can really cover this in a short post.  So you'll have to do with a tl;dr version.

The most important thing to understand is that your action economy stacks extraordinarily well.
- You can use a bonus action, like Crown of Stars or Telekinetic or Hexblade's Curse.
- You can use an action, like Potent Toll the Dead or Overchanneled Cone of Cold or Cursed Scorching Ray.
- You can be Concentrate on something, like Summon Fiend, Animate Objects, Sculpted Wall of Ice, or Sculpted Sickening Radiance.
- Your Familiar gets to act, such as by feeding a potion, granting someone Advantage, or dropping caltrops or oil.
- Any other minions you have get to act (such as if you feel like using Animate Dead).
- You can have non-Concentration effects running (like a familiar-held Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Armor of Agathys, Fire Shield, etc).
- You can use Reactions, like Hellish Rebuke or Counterspell.
- You can use Contingency.
- Hexblade's Curse can augment every single damage roll you make against a cursed target.
- *Your Simulacrum* can do all of the above, too, doubling everything on this list.

You can potentially have all that running _simultaneously_.  The reason a late game Hexvoker can just delete Tiamat isn't just because of Magic Missile, it's because they can slot it into this big fat action economy engine.

For example, let's say I want to do a big damn late game super-nova (similar to the "this is just to show off" nova in the Nuclear Wizard post) that doesn't use Magic Missile.  I might use Empowered Evocation Meteor Swarm.  Then my Simulacrum uses EE Meteor Swarm.  Then my summoned fiend shoots them 4 times.  Then my Simulacrum's summoned fiend shoots them 4 times.  Then I hit them with Empowered Evocation Crown of Stars.  And then your familiars toss Empowered Evocation Otiluke's Freezing Spheres (if you had time to pre-cast those).  And then your animated dead can fire.  And then you can use Action Surge and cast an Overchanneled Empowered Evocation direct damage spell.  And then your Simulacrum can do it too.  And then you can Action Surge.  And so on.

Note all of that is totally overkill -- a bare fraction of that is sufficient to win a Deadly encounter.  It's just an example of how you can just kind of keep piling @#$% on.  More often you'll be wanting to end a fight with just a couple of slots, or using slots that last for multiple fights (like Crown of Stars or Summon Fey or what-have-you).  

The second thing to remember is that you don't need to go too much beyond your boosted cantrip damage to have good output.

Since your base damage is better than usual for a Wizard, you don't have to stack on too much extra for your damage to be scary.  Like if you and your Simulacrum are both tossing Potent Toll the Dead, that's _already_ 6d12/save for half (at Tier 3) or 8d12/save for half (at Tier 4).  Not to mention, Potent Create Bonfire is comparably powerful to casting Cloud of Daggers at-will (and eventually scales to be better than Cloud of Daggers, especially if you're doing things like having familiars drop oil squares or what-have-you).  And you're getting some extra DPR points from things like familiars flying around and granting people Advantage and the like.

Just doing that plus having a good Concentration spell going is already good output, and you can basically keep that going all day.  Then just pile on a little extra nova juice when you decide you need it.

*Some examples include...*
- Wall someone in with a hazard spell (either by surrounding them with allies it's Sculpted around, or by having an ally -- or your Simulacrum -- drop a Wall spell to box them in).  Watch 'em melt.
- Stuff like Telekinetic or Thunderwave can often be used to knock people into hazards (either your own, your simulacrums, or those created by your allies).
- Minionmancy.  Stuff like Animate Objects or Tasha's Summons (which upcast very well to 4, 6, and 8) do a great deal of focused-target damage (seriously, Tasha's summons do more DPR than some martial builds do... _before_ you count the fact that you're tossing Potent Toll the Deads or the like at the same time).
- If someone attacks you, you can go "you activated my trap card" and it turns out to be L5 Armor of Agathys or an Overchanneled Fire Shield (you Overchannel when you set up the Contingency, not when it activates).  In addition to, you know, _your turn_.  Extra funny if they chewed through your regular-cast Armor of Agathys only to activate the Contingent one and go 'oh no there's more?!'
- Stuff that gives you bonus actions tend to be efficient, whether it's Dragon's Breath on your familiars, Melf's Minute Meteors, Bigby's Hand, or of course Crown of Stars.
- Overchannel affects multiple damage rolls, so you can get repeating hits with things like Overchanneled Minute Meteors, Sickening Radiance, etc.
- Things that buff the damage of others can also be well worth it (for example, I would often cast Darkness for my Warlock/Blind-Fighting/etc teammates).
- If you're against groups, the good ol' staples like Fireball and Cone of Cold are even better for you than usual.  Sculpt Spells is just amazing.  Empowered Evocation provides its damage boost to everyone in the AoE (because AoE spells are "all one damage roll").  And of course later on there's Overchannel for when you just want them _gone_.
- Otiluke's Freezing Sphere is good for pre-casting right before you kick down the door / ambush folks.  Your familiar (or other minion) can deliver it with _their_ action.  
- Wall of Ice is an interesting hybrid spell.   First it deals damage similar to a level 5 upcast Fireball with a flexible AoE shape.  Then it creates an *opaque* wall (which is sometimes better than Wall of Force, depends on the matchup).  Then if it's broken, it leaves behind a Sculpted hazard that your team can walk through.  What's that, the enemy just walked through it?  Well, you and your team can just walk to the other side!
- Scorching Ray is no Magic Missile, but it'll still apply stuff like Hexblade's Curse and/or Spirit Shroud multiple times.

Remember, the strength of a Wizard is in their versatility.  I rarely solve two different encounters the same way.

Hmm... that didn't feel like a tl;dr version I know, but it is.  Wizards have an awful lot of stuff.

----------


## Citadel97501

Inspiration: I have been watching a number of videos breaking down Resident Evil 8, and this got me thinking about an Aberration hunter from the Village, but due to his infection I decided against making him human.  I then added in some mechanical additions to make it more effective when not alpha striking.


Probably a better picture for an Artificer but oh well :)

Name:		Hunter of the Infected
Race:		Shifter: Swiftstride
Class:		5 x Ranger: Gloom Stalker, 4 x Warlock: Hexblade, 11 x Rogue: Assassin
Order:		Ranger x 1, Warlock x 1, ranger to 5, warlock to 4, Rogue to 11.
Background:	Agent/Hunter

Class Proficiency:	Athletics, Perception
Background:		Stealth, Survival, Thieves Tools, Dice Game Set 
Racial:			Acrobatics
Feats:			Crossbow Expert, Charisma +4, Dexterity +1, Wisdom +1
Fighting Style:	        Archery (+2 with my primary weapon...)
Invocations:		Misty Visions, Improved Pact Weapon, (Switch depending on magic items)

Playstyle: This character really leans into the horrifying alpha strikes of Assassin & Gloomstalker, but also tosses in some Hexblade to provide a lot more sustainability and to give you some extra slots for Pass Without Trace to emphasize those stealth alpha strikes for the whole group.  He will likely be impossible to see without tremorsense for the majority of his playthrough due to having a +16 or so stealth by level 5, with the option to cast Hex for increased damage after the 1st round, 2 short rest spell slots from Warlock & 2 long rest slots from Ranger will make this plenty effective.  

Reasons for Misty Visions: I like this spell but it is heavily dependent on your DM's tolerance of Illusion spells, it also makes me think of the hallucinations from Resident Evil 7.  This will also allow you to create illusions that can then be used to hide behind with your bonus actions.

Reasons for Crossbow Expert: This just seems to work better for ambushes in my head, as retaining stealth with bonus actions is easier from range.

----------


## Gignere

> Inspiration: I have been watching a number of videos breaking down Resident Evil 8, and this got me thinking about an Aberration hunter from the Village, but due to his infection I decided against making him human.  I then added in some mechanical additions to make it more effective when not alpha striking.
> 
> 
> Probably a better picture for an Artificer but oh well :)
> 
> Name:		Hunter of the Infected
> Race:		Shifter: Swiftstride
> Class:		5 x Ranger: Gloom Stalker, 4 x Warlock: Hexblade, 11 x Rogue: Assassin
> Order:		Ranger x 1, Warlock x 1, ranger to 5, warlock to 4, Rogue to 11.
> ...


I like but probably work better with sharpshooter instead of CBE and leveling warlock to 5 instead and assassin to 9. This way you can Eldritch smite at range if you do pull off a surprise auto crit. You gain 8d8 versus losing out on 2d6 during the guarantee crit surprise round.

----------


## Deen

> Ludic, with a DM who (understandably) houserules it so that the hexblade curse only applies to the first missile of a magic missile barrage, what other methods does a nuclear wizard have to just straight up delete problematic enemies?


If DM does not agree with Curse working with all Magic Missiles then I personally think 1 level Cleric instead of Hexblade is much better choice for Evoker. The top choices are:

- Hafling Mark of Healing Life Cleric 1/17 Evoker: this gives you tons of healing spells + big bonus to healing from Aura of Vitality or Healing Word etc and access to excellent Cleric spells like Bless, Shield of Faith, Sanctuary etc. This also gives heavy armor and shields so if you will find Gloves of Ogre Strength you can run in plate armor.

- Mountain Dwarf (using Tasha rules) Forge Cleric 1/17 Evoker - +2 to INT and +2 to CON. You can run without meeting STR requirement in Plate +1 and shield having 21 AC base.

- Mark of Warding Dwarf Life Cleric/Forge Cleric/Peace Cleric 1/17 Evoker or Abjuration Wizard. You also get Armor of Agathys here from Mark. Abjuration works great here too.

- Any race Peace Cleric 1/17 Evoker. Medium Armor + Shield but you also get OP Bond Channel Divinity which gives all party great support to saves, skills and attacks without concentration and can stack with Bless. 

Generally in my opinion Hexvoker is great but if Curse don't work with MM then I think Cleric is just better combo at this point.

----------


## Citadel97501

> I like but probably work better with sharpshooter instead of CBE and leveling warlock to 5 instead and assassin to 9. This way you can Eldritch smite at range if you do pull off a surprise auto crit. You gain 8d8 versus losing out on 2d6 during the guarantee crit surprise round.


That does sound like a method to improve the damage, and would lead to a stronger non-alpha strike.  :)

----------


## Gignere

> That does sound like a method to improve the damage, and would lead to a stronger non-alpha strike.  :)


Without CBE clogging your bonus action you can hexblade curse on the round after the surprise round and have a good chance pulling off a 2nd crit, since youll be attacking with advantage as an assassin if the target hasnt gone yet.

----------


## LudicSavant

> If DM does not agree with Curse working with all Magic Missiles then I personally think 1 level Cleric instead of Hexblade is much better choice for Evoker. The top choices are:
> 
> - Hafling Mark of Healing Life Cleric 1/17 Evoker: this gives you tons of healing spells + big bonus to healing from Aura of Vitality or Healing Word etc and access to excellent Cleric spells like Bless, Shield of Faith, Sanctuary etc. This also gives heavy armor and shields so if you will find Gloves of Ogre Strength you can run in plate armor.
> 
> - Mountain Dwarf (using Tasha rules) Forge Cleric 1/17 Evoker - +2 to INT and +2 to CON. You can run without meeting STR requirement in Plate +1 and shield having 21 AC base.
> 
> - Mark of Warding Dwarf Life Cleric/Forge Cleric/Peace Cleric 1/17 Evoker or Abjuration Wizard. You also get Armor of Agathys here from Mark. Abjuration works great here too.
> 
> - Any race Peace Cleric 1/17 Evoker. Medium Armor + Shield but you also get OP Bond Channel Divinity which gives all party great support to saves, skills and attacks without concentration and can stack with Bless. 
> ...


Yeah Cleric dips are great alternatives.

I would add Order Cleric and Death Cleric to the list of particularly good 1 level dip choices for an Evoker.

Order Cleric triggers reaction attacks off of Sculpted spells, while Death Cleric makes your default cantrip into twinned potent toll the dead which is a helluva baseline for a full caster.

----------


## Tekrow

So, I'm looking for Necromancer builds, but not the typical "break the game and your DM by getting 1000 skeletons and zombies" because that's overtly complicated to actually play. I'm looking for maybe something that values more quality over quantity. Is there a way to focus on just a few strong undead instead of hundreds of weak ones?

----------


## LudicSavant

> Is there a way to focus on just a few strong undead instead of hundreds of weak ones?


Summon Undead from TCE gives you a single strong undead (upcasts well to 4, 6, and 8 slot).

----------


## Tekrow

> Summon Undead from TCE gives you a single strong undead (upcasts well to 4, 6, and 8 slot).


I'll have to check it out, thanks!

----------


## Deen

> *Build 16:  Swift Death to Evil (Oath of the Watchers Assassin/Spymaster)* 
> 
> 
> *Mark of Shadow Elf Watchers Paladin 20*
> *Starting Stats (point buy):*  17 Dex / 16 Cha / 14 Con / rest to taste
> *Fighting Style*:  Blind-Fighting
> *ASIs*:  Revenant Blade, Elven Accuracy, Fey-Touched (Gift of Alacrity), Max Dex, Max Cha.  In whatever order.  
> (Example:  Revenant Blade (+1 Dex), Elven Accuracy (+1 Cha), Fey-Touched (+1 Cha), +2 Dex, +2 Cha.  
> Or if you want to max Dex ASAP:  Revenant Blade (+1 Dex) / +2 Dex / Elven Accuracy (+1 Cha) / Fey-Touched (+1 Cha) /  +2 Cha)


1 level dip sorerer can give this build tons of good stuff like Shield, Absorb Elements, Magic Armor, Guidance (if Divine Soul) which will give total 2d4 to Stealth and Performance plus 2d4 to save per short rest etc. I would also consider 1 level dip Warlock, for example Marid gives Fog Cloud to combo further with Blindsight, Hexblade gives Shield, Warlock in general gives Armor of Agathys (works on Steeds). 

But when to take it, huh? Level 9 seems like one choice (to not delay level 8 ASI). I would probably take it at level 13 becasue 11 is IDS and 12 is ASI. That one level dip gives tons of good stuff for paladin and level 20 is very.

Could also go 13/7 since on 13 you get Greater Steed and you don't need Holy Weapon because you can later upcast Spirit Shroud.

----------


## Deen

*Crown Challenger*



*A proper MMO like Paladin Tank build that can immobilize up to 3 targets, force enemies to focus attention on him and CC whole room of enemies while damaging them and disrupting their tactics + save teammates from death from time to time using their own HP.*

*Race*: Loxodon
*Class Build*: 1 Divine Soul Sorcerer/9 Paladin Oath of Crown/3 Divine Soul Sorcerer (SGs on level 10 + level 7 Crown Feature)
*Alternative Class Build*: 1 Divine Souls Sorc/6 Paladin Oath of Crown/13 Divine Souls Sorc (SGs on level 11, no level 7 Crown Feature but more slot progression and Sorc Features)
*Ability Scores*: 17 STR for start and 16 CHA. 
*ASI*: Skill Expert +1 STR: Athletics, Sentinel, +2 CHA, +2 STR, +2 CHA
*Fighting Style*: Defense (to off-set Half-Plate vs Full Plate)
*Great Support if available from party*: Enlarge/Reduce spell

The proper tank needs to not only be able to take hits but also force enemies to attack him and disrupt enemies ability to attack his allies.

*So Oath of Crown gives us the following tools:*

1. Champion Challenge - Each creature of your choice that you can see within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, a creature can't willingly move more than 30 feet away from you.
2. Spirit Guardians - They flit around you to a distance of 15 feet for the duration. An affected creatureÂs speed is halved in the area. 
3. Divine Allegiance - Starting at 7th level, when a creature within 5 feet of you takes damage, you can use your reaction to magically substitute your own health for that of the target creature, causing that creature not to take the damage. Instead, you take the damage. This damage to you can't be reduced or prevented in any way. 

So you run into pack of enemies and envoke Champion Callange as bonus Action. Every enemies 30 feet from you can't get away more than 30 feet from you. As Action you cast Spirit Guardians. Now every enemy in spirit Guardians has it's speed halved. Not only they can't get more than 30 feet away from you but they also have harder time doing it becasue their speed is halved, which means that are likely to waste action on dash (which still can't get them further than 30 feet away) or they need to stand in SG (which we want).

Next turn you can use your Attack Action and grapple two enemies: one with your free hand and one with your trunk. You can then move or position yourself close to 3rd enemy. If he tries to get away or one of the grappled enemies will - you have Sentinel OA attack to hold him in place. And you can do that OA even when holding two enemies becasue it can be done with unarmed atack so you can kick enemy and reduce his speed to 0 :D.

RAW you can also cast Sanctuary on yourself and since you don't attack or cast spells (SGs were already casted and enemies are already grappled) further making it hard to harm you or get away from you. But you can also just do Dodge Action in following turns while holding enemies and concentraiting on Spirit Guardians. When fighting Boss you can grapple him with Trunk and then Shove him while inside spirit Guardians. You can then Sanctuary yourself or hit him while he is on ground with advantage and use Divine Smites. 

If you have ANY friendly caster in party that can cast Enlarge/Reduce - make them cast it on you in combat when needed for advantage on STR checks and bigger area of Spirit Guardians.

Before you have SGs you can still issues Champion Challange, Grapples + Sentinel + Dodge Action/Sanctuary. You can also use Concentration on Shield of Faith to make yourself AC 22 (27 with Shield) and hard as hell to hit.

*There is also a DM fluff/interpretation here*: Champ. Challange says _"As a bonus action, you issue a challenge that compels other creatures to do battle with you"_. So it can also mean (I would rule that, but it's DM call) that enemies will be more likely to attack you then just try to run away from you since it's not the same as Fear spell. But that's for your DM to decide.

*Why this vs Conquest Paladin?*: I love idea of Conquest as much as anyone but after level 10 (9 is where Conquest gets Fear spell finally) there is so many enemies that are immune to fear (and most bosses, there is 290 enemies immune to fear) that this Oath loses tons of it's appeal because whole beauty of it revolves around specific condition that is resisted so often by enemies. This one doesn't rely on that and nothing is immune to Champ Challange + SGs.

*Divine Soul Sorcerer:*

1. Gives us Absorb Elements, Mirror Image and Shield, which increase our Tankiness. You don't smite that much with this Paladin so you can cast more with your slots.
2. Gives us Sanctuary from Cleric Spell list and Guidance and Cantrips in general.
3. Gives us Meta Magic
4. Gives us +2d4 to save 1/short rest
5. Gives us Spiritual Weapon later for some extra smack in later rounds.

AC is solid 20 (Half Plate, Defense and shield) with potential of 25 with Shield + Dodge action once you grab your enemies.

After that you can finish with Sorc to upcast Spirit Guardians more, go back to Paladin or maybe invest in Warlock for Armor of Agathys.

We take 1st level Sorc to get CON save prof + CHA. We lose WIS save prof but Loxodon has advantage on WIS saves so it evens out with Aura.

----------


## Maan

> 1. Champion Challenge - Each creature of your choice that you can see within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, a creature can't willingly move more than 30 feet away from you.





> *There is also a DM fluff/interpretation here*: Champ. Challange says _"As a bonus action, you issue a challenge that compels other creatures to do battle with you"_. So it can also mean (I would rule that, but it's DM call) that enemies will be more likely to attack you then just try to run away from you since it's not the same as Fear spell. But that's for your DM to decide.


I think there's another problem too: 30 feet is a _lot_ of space where the enemy is free to move as they please. And RAW they are under no compulsion to attack you, nor suffer any penalties for attacking someone else.
I know, it doesn't really make sense since the fluff seems to be clear that the enemy should be compelled somehow to attack you; but by RAW there's really nothing enforcing this. I personally find this a poorly written feature, to be honest.

So, as you say, this build would lean heavily on GM fiat, I'm afraid.

----------


## Deen

> I think there's another problem too: 30 feet is a _lot_ of space where the enemy is free to move as they please. And RAW they are under no compulsion to attack you, nor suffer any penalties for attacking someone else.
> I know, it doesn't really make sense since the fluff seems to be clear that the enemy should be compelled somehow to attack you; but by RAW there's really nothing enforcing this. I personally find this a poorly written feature, to be honest.
> 
> So, as you say, this build would lean heavily on GM fiat, I'm afraid.


I mean they still can't move more than 30 feet away and Spirit Guardians makes 15 feet around you difficult terrain. This build requires team to work around Paladin. A Sharpshooter, Wizard and Rogue with a bow won't have a problem to kite affected enemies and hold distance. And since they can't move more than 30 feet away it's easy to predict their range and add some Grease, Web etc. to it.

It's not perfect feature but it's the closest we have to proper taunt sadly :(

----------


## Draz74

My latest manic project: statting up Ludic's builds at all levels using Foundry VTT and Plutonium imports.

If anyone wants me to share the export files for these characters, let me know! So far I've done his first four builds.

----------


## Draz74

Shield and Spear Valkyrie


Arcana Cleric Frontliner


Celestial Generalist


Hobgoblin Iron Wizard


Goblin Hazard Druid


The Lifeguard


Wood Elf Magic Commando

----------


## LudicSavant

> My latest manic project: statting up Ludic's builds at all levels using Foundry VTT and Plutonium imports.
> 
> If anyone wants me to share the export files for these characters, let me know! So far I've done his first four builds.





> Shield and Spear Valkyrie
> 
> 
> Arcana Cleric Frontliner
> 
> 
> Celestial Generalist
> 
> 
> ...


These are super cool!  I'm gonna have to post more builds to give you more to work with  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## mw_147

> 1 level dip sorerer can give this build tons of good stuff like Shield, Absorb Elements, Magic Armor, Guidance (if Divine Soul) which will give total 2d4 to Stealth and Performance plus 2d4 to save per short rest etc. I would also consider 1 level dip Warlock, for example Marid gives Fog Cloud to combo further with Blindsight, Hexblade gives Shield, Warlock in general gives Armor of Agathys (works on Steeds). 
> 
> But when to take it, huh? Level 9 seems like one choice (to not delay level 8 ASI). I would probably take it at level 13 becasue 11 is IDS and 12 is ASI. That one level dip gives tons of good stuff for paladin and level 20 is very.
> 
> Could also go 13/7 since on 13 you get Greater Steed and you don't need Holy Weapon because you can later upcast Spirit Shroud.


Don't forget you're going to need a 13 STR to multiclass in or out of Paladin, so if you're still going DEX based you're going to be super MAD.

----------


## Boverk

*Rick O'Shea, the Pinball Wizard (well, bard, but they're still magical)*

This built is based off of two things, getting access to a rare item, Two Birds Sling and your DM ruling that a sling bullet pouch counts as a quiver for the Swift Quiver Spell.  

The two birds sling lets you ricochet your sling attacks to a single target within 10 feet of your initial target when you hit them with an attack.  Swift Quiver lets you make 2 additional ranged attacks as a bonus action.  

Therefore, if there are two enemies within 10 feet of each other (say in a tunnel, or just traveling together) you can essentially make 8 attacks per round (after you get swift quiver up and running).

Multiple ways to build this, but here's the pure bard version, so you can also have a rocking sound track.

*Race:* Lightfoot Halfling - +2 Dex, +1 Charisma, reroll 1's, good at hiding, halflings and slings go together. 

*Point Buy Stats:* 8 Strength, 15 dex, 15 con, 8 int, 12 will, 13 cha

*Class:* Valor Bard Level 10 - The main two reasons we go this route are for the extra attack at level 6, and the magical secrets at level 10.  For magical secrets, we will be taking Swift Quiver and you get one other choice....thematically, I like the idea of Steel Wind Strike as a melee version of pinballing around.

We also get medium armor and the rest of the traditional bard stuff.

*Feats:*  We have 2 feats by level 10, I'd take:

Crusher - lets you move someone 5 feet once per turn, and if you crit, the rest of the attacks against that creature have advantage until the start of your next turn...also rounds out our con stat.  The idea here is that they are 15 feet away from each other, the first shot scooches them into range, and then the next 3 attacks get to double up.  

War Caster - concentration checks are important

if I had a third feat, or if you prefer them, other possibilities are - Fighting Initiate choosing Archery (+2 to hit!), Sharpshooter (for when you get advantage) or Resilient - Con (again, concentration checks)

and that is the core of the build, the rest of which preference and flavor.  

If going farther than level 10, there are multiple possibilities...Hexblade is probably the most attractive for multiclassing, though pure bard is also fine.  if getting extra attack from another source, maybe choose College of Lore or College of Whispers for your bard subclass.   

Another spell you could use at higher levels would be Tenser's Transformation...its just a shame that you can't use both it and swift quiver at the same time.  

Finally, if there were a way for wizard to get Swift Quiver, I'd do Blade Singer instead.

Please let me know if you can think of any ways to improve on this

----------


## Draz74

> These are super cool!  I'm gonna have to post more builds to give you more to work with


Haha, I've still got a few in the backlog to work with already!

Now that I built these at all lower levels too... Each one takes a while...

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## Citadel97501

Has the Shield and Spear mounted Valkyrie changed at all with the addition of Tasha's?  I frankly don't see much reason to change anything except there is an argument to take Crusher for the bashing attacks of the spear allowing you to push people off their mounts.  Then again, with all of the additional methods to push or get pushed now, this character is probably demanding a ring of feather falling...seriously gravity always wins in the end...

----------


## Draz74

The Soulknife
(note that the AC displayed is when Mage Armor isn't even active, let alone Shield.)

----------


## Draz74

The Ancestral Avenger
My favorite part of this build is the witch-doctor flavor on a non-spellcaster. In fact, now I want to play in a campaign where all of the PCs are witch-doctors in a Louisiana/Jamaica hybrid setting.

----------


## Hairfish

> The Ancestral Avenger
> My favorite part of this build is the witch-doctor flavor on a non-spellcaster. In fact, now I want to play in a campaign where all of the PCs are witch-doctors in a Louisiana/Jamaica hybrid setting.


I really enjoyed a Kenku version of this build, who was perpetually bewildered and turned to his ancestors for direction whenever someone else wasn't telling him what to do.

----------


## mw_147

I was messing around with a few build ideas last night and started to get interested in combining Elemental Affinity from a draconic sorcerer, Radiant Soul from a celestial warlock, Quickened Green-Flame Blade with Shadow Blade. Took some fighter levels for Action Surge and Eldritch Smite to go wild on a crit. Looks like some pretty good damage numbers, but I'm wondering how others here would see this and go about optimising it? Elemental Adept feat would be a huge boost due to how common fire resistance is, but the build is pretty hungry for ASIs so would need to be a VHuman to take it.

----------


## RogueJK

> I was messing around with a few build ideas last night and started to get interested in combining Elemental Affinity from a draconic sorcerer, Radiant Soul from a celestial warlock, Quickened Green-Flame Blade with Shadow Blade.


There's way too steep of a cost required to grab both Radiant Soul (6 levels Warlock) and Elemental Affinity (6 levels Sorcerer).  Since Pact Magic and Spellcasting slots don't stack, you end up being a 12th level full caster who only has access to 3rd level spells and no upcasting slots.  The payoff of being able to add another +5 to some cantrip damage rolls just isn't worth not having any 4th/5th/6th level spells at Level 12.

Not to mention the other issue of not having Extra Attack.  So you'd only get 1 Green Flame Shadow Blade attack per turn, unless you keep burning 2 Sorcery Points every turn for a 2nd BA GFSB attack.

So you'd be a poor melee fighter, and a poor spellcaster, all in an attempt to just chase a mere +5 to your GFB damage.


The damage increase from a second attack with a Shadow Blade (especially an upcast 3rd or 5th level Shadow Blade) is a lot more than what you'd get from stacking those two.  And/or you can start adding on additional damage from stuff like Smite, or Sneak Attack, and end up well ahead in your damage.  

Therefore, by the time this comes online at Level 12, you could be doing significantly more damage with your Green Flame Shadow Blade attacks using something like a Bladesinger Wizard 12, Eldritch Knight Fighter 3/Bladesinger 9,  Arcane Trickster Rogue 12, Bladesinger 6/Arcane Trickster 6, or Paladin 6/Draconic Sorcerer 6.

----------


## LudicSavant

> I was messing around with a few build ideas last night and started to get interested in combining Elemental Affinity from a draconic sorcerer, Radiant Soul from a celestial warlock, Quickened Green-Flame Blade with Shadow Blade. Took some fighter levels for Action Surge and Eldritch Smite to go wild on a crit. Looks like some pretty good damage numbers, but I'm wondering how others here would see this and go about optimising it? Elemental Adept feat would be a huge boost due to how common fire resistance is, but the build is pretty hungry for ASIs so would need to be a VHuman to take it.


Without seeing the specifics, my opinion on this sort of thing is usually that your cantrip -- even a well-boosted cantrip -- is still just your cantrip, so I don't like to go _too_ far out of my way to boost it.  All that multiclassing is eating away at ASIs and higher level spell access.  What's more is that Elemental Adept won't actually help you against fire _immune_ foes, which is almost as common as Fire Resistance.

----------


## Dalinar

The Starshredder

Inspired by jaappleton's thread about how to build Frog in Chrono Trigger, I became interested in doing a Swarmkeeper build. The obvious go-to is Spike Growth to synergize with the 15-foot shove, but I didn't want to lean too heavily on that gimmick this time around--other builds have broken that spell much more. Also, I thought the name sounded cool.

Class: Swarmkeeper 5-6ish / Stars X
Race: Just about anything can work here, so I'm open to suggestions. Pick your favorite. Since this build will have Spike Growth, a flying race is probably a good idea, but you do you.
Stats: Assuming +2/+1 and point buy, we can start with 16 DEX and 17 WIS. Rest to taste.
Feats: I think Fey-touched fits very well with the build, hence the 17 WIS, but beyond that I'm open to ideas.

First two levels aren't super interesting. Grab the Druidic Warrior fighting style for Thorn Whip, and plink things with that or with a longbow. Thorn Whip synergizes with Swarmkeeper at 3, allowing you to pull people up to 25 feet towards you if the dice are feeling favorable (as Thorn Whip is an attack, and Swarmkeeper doesn't specify weapon attacks). Fey-touched at 4 makes that gimmick more reliable by bumping your WIS. I'd get Command or Dissonant Whispers with it. Between Fey-touched, Thorn Whip, and Swarmkeeper shove, we have a lot of ways to manipulate our and the enemies' positions, which all gets brought together when we reach 5 and pick up Spike Growth. Swarmkeeper also gives us Web, if we'd rather screw with the action economy instead of dealing damage. Replace an unwanted first-level spell with Aid or Pass Without Trace.

If we can hit with Thorn Whip at level 5 and drag an enemy through 25 feet of Spike Growth, that's 2d6 + 10d4 damage, which averages 32. Not too shabby, although you have to land the attack and then have them fail the STR save for the extra 15 feet. If they make the save, that's still 2d6+4d4 or 17 damage on hit, provided you can pull them 10 feet closer to you. If your DM lets you Command someone to run through Spike Growth (or you picked Dissonant Whispers), there's synergy there as well. If we don't have a Spike Growth down, or just don't want to shove for whatever reason, we can plink twice with a longbow, which is unimpressive but gets the job done thanks to Favored Foe and Swarmkeeper's bonus damage option.

This is where I'd swap out for Stars Druid, although grabbing one more Ranger level does smooth out spell slot progression and makes you more mobile. I'd do it after hitting Druid 2-3, though. The extra cantrips are solid, but the BA Wisdom-based attack from Starry Form: Archer is pretty wild, as are the free Guiding Bolts. Starry Form: Chalice makes you a pretty potent healer (you certainly picked up Cure Wounds by now, right?), and Starry Form: Dragon can help with investigative checks and the like. 

So at this point you've got several damaging options in combat: 3-4 free Guiding Bolts, the BA attack from Starry Form: Archer in most circumstances, two longbow attacks on your Attack action, and Thorn Whip for direct damage. You have Spike Growth and Web for AOE battlefield control, and the free spell from Fey-touched for single-target control. You've got Misty Step, including a free one. You've got Pass Without Trace. You have relatively efficient healing while in Chalice form, which is great for a quick pick-me-up between combats. Your skill checks are on point, being a Ranger with Dragon form to give reliability on information-gathering. 

Depending on your party composition, you can use your Thorn Whip/Swarmkeeper combo to pull one creature out of a crowd and get something like a Wall of Fire/Force/etc. to separate it from its allies. Divide and conquer!

On flavor, I was thinking of a UA Rabbitfolk (but again, race doesn't seem super important for this build), a Feywild native who was friends with some little lake spirits that resembled stars. Something caused them to be ejected from the Feywild together and end up in [insert your setting here]. The water spirits make up the Swarmkeeper swarm, the Spike Growth and Web hazards are them interfering, etc.

I'm not sure how to continue into lategame.

*EDIT 1:* On further reflection, starting with Stars 2 gets your BA attack online a little faster and allows you to take a fighting style other than Druidic Warrior if you don't want the extra cantrips. WIS save proficiency is probably also better than DEX, though you're already good at both regardless of which way you start. Stars 2 / Swarmkeeper 3 / Stars 3 / Swarmkeeper 5-6 / Stars X seems like one good way to progress the build.

----------


## NCat

Alright, so, you like adding dice to your damage, don't you? We all do. And what better classes to do this than the Paladin and the Rogue. Just getting that one good hit and telling your DM 'Yeah, im putting a million dice on this one'. Nothing tops that


What if we could have both of those feelings at the same time?


I present to you, 

*The OathBlade*




So whats the build?

Well, its essentially a mix of paladin 3 and Arcane Trickster Rogue 17
(Stat pre-req's are str13, cha 13, dex 13. Stat prioritization should be dex, con or int, cha, str, wis)

The idea of this, is that you play primarily as a rogue, with a standard hit and run style of gameplay, but you can deal large bursts of damage on top of your Sneak Attack damage using your spell slots, aswell as a general increase to versatility out of combat as a spell caster


While spell options are very much a personal choice, there is 1 that I consider mandatory on this build: Booming Blade

Booming Blade as a cantrip is very strong since it can often match the damage output progression of a full fighter or a EB+Agonizing blast warlock, with its 2d8 per cantrip increase scaling. On a rogue, since you only ever will get one attack per round, you might aswell make that melee attack using booming blade so as to get a whole lot of extra damage at no cost. 


As for races and feats, they're primarilly up to user preference, but my personal recommendations would be as follows:


For race, theres no better option for a rogue than an Elf. Darkvision, Fey ancestry and a perception proficiency are generally helpful, and trance is good if you want to scout ahead of time around your party. But even better are subracial features, such as shadar kai's Blessing of the Raven Queen, which is a strong escape feature, The mark of Shadow Elf gets a d4 to stealth rolls aswell as the option to take the spell Pass without a Trace, and wood elves get a speed increase aswell as the ability to hide while only lightly obscured by natural terrain.

But the absolute best thing of elf, is not any of their traits. Its the feat that everyone should know I was building up to: Elven Accuracy. Turn that advantage from 2 dice rolls to 3 dice rolls. A generally useful trait on most builds, but an absolute must have for rogues since it dramatically increases their chance of hitting an enemy with an attack each turn.

So yes, take elf and take elven accuracy, because elven accuracy is just nutty


As for other feats, Id recommend mobile next. a +10 to movement speed is quite strong on its own, but its actually its secondary feature that makes it better, that being that when you attempt an attack against a creature with a melee weapon, you dont provoke opportunity attacks from them for the rest of your turn. Using this increases your effectiveness in a melee fight dramatically aswell, since you no longer need to worry about the disengage action, and can run in, attack, run away and hide to your hearts content. 

Those two would be the key essential feats id say. Less mandatory would be feats like Slasher, which is generally quite good if you chose the scimitar as your weapon of choice.
Medium Armor Master, in combination with the defense fighting style, a shield and half plate will grant you an Armor class of 21 (15+3+2+1) which is quite impressive, especially when accounting for the fact that you can add the shield spell on top of this for an even higher 

Oh and lucky, i guess. But thats a boring recomendation since anyone can take lucky and it will be good. So lucky works, I guess? But its a kinda boring recommendation to make

Ah! Eldritch adept is a fun feat aswell. Darkness + devils sight is a very efficient way to generate free advantage aswell as protecting yourself if you center it on yourself. The cost is your friends wont really like you that much if you do it though. Mask of many faces is also fun if you plan to use disguises alot and want to avoid spending your spell slots on disguise self.




And now that feats and such are out of the way, lets bring ourselves to the topic of Paladin archetype. Because honestly I kinda forgot about it.

Your subclass in paladin isnt that meaningful for this build, with it just being a channel divinity. You could honestly skip paladin 3 and stop at 2 if you really wanted to, but I say against this for the sole reason of 'I like having features because having a bunch of stuff is fun'

So what paladin subclasses are most optimal? overall, the best options are:


Conquest:  Good spell options, Armor Of Agathys is one of my favourite spells, and command has a lot of creativity to how it can be used. Conquering presence is a kinda not great channel divinity, but guiding strike is very good as a once per day ability, granting you a +10 to an attack roll. Very helpful when you want to make sure an attack hits.

Glory:  Spell selection is ok, temp HP is nice from heroism and guiding bolt is sorta useful (but not really). Its channel divinities dont offend me, and could be fairly helpful in some circumstances. Inspiring smite its a decent support ability, even if it doesnt scale too well. But my interest is caught on Peerless Athlete, since it could pottentially apply as a utility feature if you are say, Oceans 12 laser dancing through a room, free advantage and bonus's to jumping distance can help out with the active parts of your adventuring day. But it is fairly DM dependent on if you will get these kinds of moments, and if you do, it probably wont be that often. 


Redemption: Spells arent that great, but Emmisary of peace is a very fun utility channel divinity, being able to add a +5 to your persuasion checks is very helpful, especially if you ended up with a decent charisma score or chose to expertise persuasion. The other channel divinity option is a fairly alright support feature, aswell as granting additional damage. In fact, depending on what can happen, you can make it so when those horrible moments happen where your DM does half a billion damage to a party member in one attack (aka every one of my parties encounters :/ ), you can turn that around as damage against the enemy.

Vengeance: Bane and hunters mark are decent spells, with bane being pretty useful defensively and supportively, and hunters mark is kinda unimpressive in terms of damage comparing to everything else you have (but still pretty good), Abjure enemies is a interesting channel divinity, but Vow of Enmity? Oh I like vow of Enmity. Takes up an action and has short range, yes, but in exchange you have guaranteed advantage on that enemy for a whole minute. This is an amazing way of getting advantage in a fight if you have the time to activate it. Carries this entire subclass straight to 5/5

Watchers  Alarm and detect magic are okay spells. Abjure the extraplanar is an eh channel divinity, but watchers will is a very good channel divinity, giving you and a few allies advantage on all mental saves for a minute. Good support power

Oathbreaker:  Hellish rebuke is a good spell, inflict wounds is ok but not great for your character. Both of its channel divinities are good. Control undead is a situational but useful power to have, and Dreadful aspect is, unlike the rest of the fear and turn effects, probably quite helpful. No repeat saves while they are within 30 feet of you, and multiple targets. Its a decently inspiring ability to me that could probably have a good few uses if creative

Treachery (UA):  Charm person is a generally useful spell, though expeditious retreat is a little bit useless on a rogue. Both of its channel divinity options are quite powerful. Conjure duplicate is similiar to vow of enmity as a free source of advantage, though its a bit harder to use in exchange for being more versatile in its use as an illusion feature, aswell as being able to apply it to new creatures after they die. It does suffer from the fact it requires your concentration though. Poison strike is amazing on an assassin character, with you being able to apply a 23 bonus to damage on a suprise attack against an enemy

overall, treachery and vengeance are the best of the lot imo



So yeah, overall, an elven rogue/paladin, with the treachery oath, a scimitar and a shield, protection fighting style, mobile, elven accuracy, medium armor master in half plate and booming blade. A strong assassin and combatant, a fast, speedy and well armoured attacker with devestating blows that strikes from the shadows.




I also find this a very flavorful multiclass, as swearing an oath is a very fun bit of background to your character. Are you an arm of a church, an assassin who serves the church in the dark where a paladin or cleric of the light has no place in? Are you a servent of a mafia or crime gang, swearing your alligience to your family? Are you an assassin who vows vengeance against a group who killed a friend, or an anarchist who swore an oath against the nobility and royalty of the country you live in. A stalker of the night imbued with divine magic. The oathblade

(:

----------


## Gignere

> Those two would be the key essential feats id say. Less mandatory would be feats like Slasher, which is generally quite good if you chose the shortsword as your weapon of choice.
> 
> What if we could have both of those feelings at the same time?
> Ah! Eldritch adept is a fun feat aswell. Darkness + devils sight is a very efficient way to generate free advantage aswell as protecting yourself if you center it on yourself. The cost is your friends wont really like you that much if you do it though. Mask of many faces is also fun if you plan to use disguises alot and want to avoid spending your spell slots on disguise self.
> (:


A few comments, this is an interesting and flavorful build. However quite MAD because need 13 str, 13 dex, and 13 charisma and if you want to leverage high level AT features a passable int, and no one dumps con. 

Slasher doesnt work with shortswords you can only use two weapons with slasher for this build a scimitar or a whip. At high levels I guess a Moonblade with finesse can technically work too. 

Eldritch Adept is unnecessary if you take blindfighting style at level 2 Paladin, saves a feat/ASI which this build needs because it is so MAD. 

A headband of intellect is highly recommended for this build.

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## Klorox

> Introducing, the *Holy Avenger*.
> 
> 
> _Technically you get wings at level 20..._
> 
> This is pretty much your cookie-cutter Sorcadin. I just felt like building this one since no one here has yet, and I wanted to share my take on what would be the most optimal Sorcadin build.
> As always, feedback is very much welcome, since the purpose of these builds is to optimize a concept as much as possible.
> 
> Race: Variant Human
> ...


could you please post the half elf version (assuming you're planning on using hexblade)?  

I'd assume you'd just go 16/8/16/8/8/17 and choose elven accuracy at level 4 (even though it would rarely help you until you get hexblade).

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## Gignere

> could you please post the half elf version (assuming you're planning on using hexblade)?  
> 
> I'd assume you'd just go 16/8/16/8/8/17 and choose elven accuracy at level 4 (even though it would rarely help you until you get hexblade).


Players Ive seen that optimizes for hexadins typically go 15 in str and save the points for a tertiary ability like maybe 10 wis or dex. You want to dip the hex blade no later than level 3. At lower levels a +2 to hit really doesnt hurt you all that much.

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## Dalinar

The Spotter
Order 1/Mastermind 3(/Druid X)
Any Race (suggest either VHuman/CL if there's a particular feat you want, since we'll be featless for a long time; or any variety of Dwarf to avoid the heavy armor speed penalty and get better stats)
Stats: Max WIS, 15 STR (unless you prefer medium armor), 13+ DEX, rest to taste

Flavor-wise, these classes clash quite a bit. I am thinking our protagonist begins their journey as a manipulator, using a mix of legal trickery with the occasional outright deception to con others. 

Mechanically, this build is designed to be paired with any of the Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master builds floating around, as well as your friendly neighborhood Rogue who I'm sure will love you for making their life easier regarding reaction Sneak Attacks. The Druid subclass is up to personal preference; I figured we'd be triggering the Order 1 ability with Healing Word pretty often, so pairing that with Stars Druid's Chalice form seemed like a no-brainer. You can also go back to more Order Cleric levels if you want something like Aid.

I've chosen to take the Order level first so that we can sit on the frontlines in heavy armor and a shield right away. If you prefer having more skill proficiencies, better weapon proficiencies, DEX saves over WIS saves, etc. consider taking one or more of the Rogue levels first.

The combo I'm going for here comes online at level 4, that is, Order 1/Mastermind 3. The Mastermind 3 ability allows us to Help as a bonus action, as well as Help our allies attack targets when we're within 30 feet of the target instead of 5. We then immediately cast a spell on an ally, who can make a weapon attack with their reaction thanks to Order 1. Good spells to combo with are Bless, Cure Wounds, and Healing Word (note that we can still Help with our regular action and Healing Word with our bonus action).

When we aren't burning spell slots, we're making small Sneak Attacks at range with the light crossbow that Clerics are allowed to start out with, using our cantrips, or attacking with a dagger of all things (it's the only finesse simple weapon, so we can Sneak Attack in melee if we have one). Heavy armor and shield proficiencies make us rather unappetizing targets.

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## RogueJK

> Order 1/Mastermind 3(/Druid X)
> ...
> The Druid subclass is up to personal preference; I figured we'd be triggering the Order 1 ability with Healing Word pretty often, so pairing that with Stars Druid's Chalice form seemed like a no-brainer. You can also go back to more Order Cleric levels if you want something like Aid.
> ...
> Heavy armor and shield proficiencies make us rather unappetizing targets.


Just note that there's no standard non-metal heavy armor, so that'd be up to your DM to allow you to either bend the Druid flavor to allow metal armor, or be generous to hand out some sort of special non-metal heavy armor like dragon scale mail.

(Or just be a Tortle and wear no armor.  That gets you 19 AC with a shield. 1 point below Plate Mail and a shield.)

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## Dalinar

> Just note that there's no standard non-metal heavy armor, so that'd be up to your DM to allow you to either bend the Druid flavor to allow metal armor, or be generous to hand out some sort of special non-metal heavy armor like dragon scale mail.
> 
> (Or just be a Tortle and wear no armor.  That gets you 19 AC with a shield. 1 point below Plate Mail and a shield.)


Yes, thank you for the reminder. I thought I included something about that, but must have cut it for length or something? Weird.

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## CMCC

Maybe a weird request/suggestion, but if you're going to submit a build I would suggest you add a picture/visual. It helps the presentation of the build greatly.

Take the advice or leave it. Choice is yours  :Small Smile:

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## ftafp

*The One-Man Circus: Music, Monkeys, Mesmerism, Magic and More*

*Race:* Human, Mark of Handling
*Class Split:* Artillerist 14/Enchanter 6
*Progression:* Artificer 1, Wizard 1 -> Enchanter 6, Artificer 2 -> Artillerist 14
*Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 17 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha
*ASI:* Fey Touched(Command, +1 Int)@5, +2 [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
*Background:* Entertainer
*Infusions:* Bag of Holding, Spellwrought Tattoo, Pipes of Haunting, Winged Boots, Horn of Blasting
*Spells of Note:* Magic Stone, Find Familiar, Sanctuary, Unseen Servant, Web, Conjure Animals, Tiny Servants

*Tier 1 (1-4):*
This build is going to move fast so let's get to the details. For levels 1 you're going to be a pretty standard artificer nothing to see here. At level 2 you get find familiar. I suggest a flying monkey from Tomb of Annihilation if your DM allows it, otherwise go Raven. At 3 you become an enchanter and get hypnotic gaze. At this point you've got a new combat strategy. Before battle if your DM didn't let you get the flying monkey, you're going to want to ritual cast Unseen Servant to have one ready to go and give it standing orders to follow you and slap a pair of manacles on whoever you hypnotize. If your DM lets you get the flying monkey, no need to ritual cast. In battle, your turn 1 strategy will be dropping your concentration spell and then turn 2 if the enemy has hands you'll cast sanctuary and hypnotize them, incapacitating them while the servant forces them to perform a feat of escapism. At 4 web is going to be your best concentration spell much of the time. Please for the love of god don't set the web on fire or let your allies do it either. It's a waste of a perfectly good control spell.

*Tier 2 (5-10):*
Level 5 will be a bit slow. You get your ASI along with command from fey touched which is a good spell for upcasting. 6 is where things really shift into high gear as you get Conjure Animals, allowing you to bring the circus to town. These animals attacking won't break your sanctuary so have fun with it as you continue to force enemies into houdini shenangans. I also recommend Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell and Phantom Steed at this and the next level, but hold off on Tiny Servant and Fireball unless you can scribe them, as we'll get those later. Note that with Hypnotic Pattern, Unseen Servant becomes more relevant. You might want to have several handy before combat. Level 7 is where we get Instinctive Charm, which, stacked with sanctuary and a sizable AC is going to make you a nightmare to hit. At 8 we take our second level of Artificer and here's where things get fun. The Spellwrought Tattoo infusion is great on several levels. Use it to give the whole party familiars or hit them with gift of alacrity. A raven familiar can also use the tattoo so give your familiars familiars and get a swarm going. Unlike other infusions there's nothing stopping you from taking the same Replicate Magic Item infusion multiple times (There used to a rule against it in the artificer UA but WotC removed it without touching any of the surrounding text and never fixed it in the errata suggesting this was intentional), so take it a bunch and enjoy. 9 will give you your protection cannot which will give you a use for your bonus action and turn you into a temp hp factory. Finally, 10 will give you and ASI to max out your Int.

*Tier 3 (11-16):*
Level 11 is... a bit lame honestly, but level 12 makes up for that. At this level you get the pipes of haunting. Now you've got a concentration-free, spell-free way to frighten enemies without breaking sanctuary. The disadvantage on ability checks will make it harder for enemies to get out of shackles and the disadvantage on attacks will protect both your allies and your animals. You can take this multiple time as will the spellwrought tattoo. Be advised that you regain all charges at the end of a long rest by re-infusing your items. 13 will give you Flash of Genius, which is great for saving throws. 14 will get you another feat. 15 will minorly buff your cannons and give you fireball and tiny servants if you didn't already have them. You can create 3 tiny servants and give them standing orders to use magic stones. I like to refluff my tiny servants as little cannons and this is perfectly on-brand for our circus theme so go nuts. You also get winged boots for free flight at this level then 16 will give us 4 attunement slots which is great

*Tier 4 (17-20):* Normally I don't like doing tier 4 stuff but here I'm excited for it. At 17 you get spell storing item. Arm your tiny servants with a home-made wand of web (or a shatter/thunderwave cannon if you want to get blasty). 18 will give you another ASI. 19 Will give you 5 attunement slots and then for 14 we get the horn of blasting. Pass that around your tiny servants or army of flying monkey familiars and have them honk their brains out for a fantastic re-usable blast. Congrats kid, you've got it made.

----------


## Draz74

Latest musing: I love Stars Druid, but I'm trying to think of a way to make it seem more "eclectic" or less "same-y" without multiclassing ... What are some good Race/Background/Feat options for Stars Druid that are synergistic but might not be obvious at first glance?

EDIT: Lots of races that seem interesting with Stars Druid flavor-wise (and also have WIS bonuses): Aarakocra, Protector Aasimar, Centaur, Dhampir, Wood Elf, Firbolg, Water Genasi, Lotsuden Halfling, Loxodon, Fierna Tiefling, Wildhunt Shifter, Tortle.

Shadow Touched seems like a fun Feat flavor-wise too, especially if I settle on Protector Aasimar. Of course Custom Lineage and Variant Human are always strong options for race and could also pick up Shadow Touched early.

----------


## Xoronis

> The Spotter
> Order 1/Mastermind 3(/Druid X)


What do the druid levels add to this? It doesn't seem like you specified how they add to the build, and if there's something self evident about Druid over any other class then I must be missing it.

----------


## Dalinar

> What do the druid levels add to this? It doesn't seem like you specified how they add to the build, and if there's something self evident about Druid over any other class then I must be missing it.


Fair question. Honestly, I want as many spell slots as we can get, as quickly as we can get them, once we have Rogue 3 set up. Reason for that is so we can trigger Order 1 as frequently as possible. 

So unless I want to go MAD or half-caster (I'm open to the former if someone can make a good case; not a fan of the latter because we're already delayed on spell progression) my choices come down to "stay in Order Cleric, or go Druid" and I'm not overly thrilled about Order Cleric as a subclass after level 1 considering what we're there for. So Druid is naturally the next place to look. As for which Druid subclass, I've kinda just had Stars on the brain for the past few weeks. Chalice form in particular stands out since it makes Healing Word/Cure Wounds/etc. dramatically more efficient, and since we're also getting damage out of those through Order 1 I figured I'd double down.

As I said in the post, if you like more Order Cleric levels after hitting 4 in that build, go for that instead. Unsure what value the CD has for us in a combat situation, probably good utility to have, but it's probably getting turned into a spell slot most days. The level 6 lets you cast Enchantment spells such as Bless as a bonus action, which I suppose has merit if you have a good non-spell use of your regular action. Dunno what that might be, maybe a Sneak Attack in the event you can't just use Mastermind Help or something. We're only weapon attacking occasionally, so not much to say for Divine Strike or Order's Wrath. 

All that being said, if you like the Cleric spell list, it might still be worth it to you, or if you have a better idea on how to progress this build beyond 4th level I'm all ears.

----------


## Hairfish

Well, if your intention is to dip this with a GWM or Sharpshooter build, then you're already MAD by going for high Wis on top of a weapon-based combatant chassis.

----------


## Xoronis

> Fair question. Honestly, I want as many spell slots as we can get, as quickly as we can get them, once we have Rogue 3 set up. Reason for that is so we can trigger Order 1 as frequently as possible. 
> 
> So unless I want to go MAD or half-caster (I'm open to the former if someone can make a good case; not a fan of the latter because we're already delayed on spell progression) my choices come down to "stay in Order Cleric, or go Druid" and I'm not overly thrilled about Order Cleric as a subclass after level 1 considering what we're there for. So Druid is naturally the next place to look. As for which Druid subclass, I've kinda just had Stars on the brain for the past few weeks. Chalice form in particular stands out since it makes Healing Word/Cure Wounds/etc. dramatically more efficient, and since we're also getting damage out of those through Order 1 I figured I'd double down.


Ah, gotcha, so it's more of a "subsequent levels to taste" kind of deal, and Druid was to your taste. 

One thing that stood out to me as an option is going Evocation Wizard. It is MAD, and it'll be slow to do anything significant with the Wizard levels, but Sculpt Spells lets us do a bit of cheese if you have a complicit DM. Everyone affected by an area of effect spell is considered targeted by that spell, so eventually you could drop a Fireball on your party, sculpt it so your party takes no damage, and then use Voice of Authority. That is 5 levels of Wizard though, so that might be too slow.




> Well, if your intention is to dip this with a GWM or Sharpshooter build, then you're already MAD by going for high Wis on top of a weapon-based combatant chassis.


This isn't dipping with GWM or Sharpshooter, it's pairing with your buddy that has those. That's why you have the Cleric and Rogue levels, you Help for advantage and then Voice of Authority for them to attack as a reaction.

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## Atomicwraith

*Spriteclock Mage*


This build centers around three things:  the impressive power of a Chainlocks buffed Sprite familiar, the synergy between a level 3 Warlock and the abilities of a Clockwork Sorcerer, and the fantastic spell list of the Clockwork sorcerer itself.  I hadnt seen something like this posted here (bit maybe I didn't search hard enough); please critique to improve it!

*Summary*
	Hexbalde Chainlock 3, Clockwork Soul Sorcerer X
	*Action Economical*: a strong Bonus Action debuff: Invisible sprite spreading poison/unconsciousness at DC 16 (by level 11) and twinned debuff spells.
	*Tanky*: Start every day with +54-82% more "free" Hit Points: +5 Max HP from Aid, +~18 HP Bastion of Law, +15 THP from Inspiring Leader, and optional +20 Armor of Agathys. AC 21, and the Shield spell, advantage on Wisdom Saves.
	*Debuffy*: with ~7 L2 spell slots per day of twined Blindness, Levitate, Phantasmal Force, and Tashas Hideous Laughter.  Great shut-down options including Banishment, Polymorph, subtle Counterspell, and Dispel Magic
	*Face-y*: Cha of 18, Disguise Self, subtle Detect Thoughts and Suggestion
	*Tricksy*: Dex of 16 with +1d4 to Thieves tools, Knock, Gaseous Form, Disguise Self, Feather Fall, Minor Illusion, Mage Hand.
	We can hold our concentration decently with advantaged DC 16 Con saves 

*Backstory*
Your skills with Navigators Tools and Cartography made you the ships navigator.  But your sorcerous ability to Prestidigitate and Shape Water, plus your Vedalken ability to breathe underwater made you an ideal crewmate to swab decks and remove barnacles.  At least they took you ashore occasionally thanks to your excellent investigation and lockpicking skills; tomb raiding was never what you aimed for, but you were good at it.  When the pirates struck, you washed ashore next to a mysterious hexblade.  You wandered to the nearest settlement, beguiled by the dark void powers of the blade but eager to pursue your meditations on the clockwork realm of beautiful order from whence you learned your sorcerous powers

*Build*
Well go to 11 and see how things look.  Begin as a Vedalken with expertise in Thieves Tools and Investigation, advantage in I/W/C saves, and the ability to breathe underwater for an hour.  Ability scores are 8/16/14/8/10/17 using Tashas +2 to Cha and +1 to Dex.  Skills are Stealth, Deception, Perception, and Persuasion.  We are a dexterous Face who can break into things and just happens to be a spell caster. Hey, we're a sorcerer; it just kind of erupted from within!

Start as a Clockwork Sorcerer with Prestidigitation, Mage hand, Shape Water, and Firebolt.  Level 1 spells include Disguise Self and Sleep, plus CS spells of Alarm and Prot f/Good/Evil.

At level 2, we decide to spend more time with this mysterious blade, picking up one level of Hexblade Warlock (importantly Medium armor and shield, and less importantly Hexblades curse and +CHA to a melee weaponuseful for opportunity attacks, but this wont be the focus of this build).  Pick up Toll the Dead and Minor Illusion.  Why not Eldritch Blast?  Because it cannot be twinned, and we don't have room for the juicy invocations to make EB sing.  Pick up Hex and Shield.

Level 3 is more Warlock:  get Comprehend Languages to help with the tomb raiding, plus Eldritch Mind and anything temporary for your invocations.

Level 4: our warlock capstone.  Swap the anything invocation for Investment of the Chain Master, because we just declared for Chainlock.  Comp Langs falls away in favor of Detect Thoughts and Suggestion.  Now we have a Sprite familiar.  It can scout for us.  It likely gives us regular surprise rounds, or at least starting a fight when we decide to.  It lets us do something really useful on every bonus action (+6 to shortbow 40/160 ranged attacks, causes poison upon Con save vs 13 for 1 minute upon hit, or unconsciousness if the target misses its save by 5).  This little guy will be putting out poison arrows every round until the end of the campaign.

Level 5: impressed but repulsed by the dark void powers of our semi-sentient sword, we return to the clockwork perfection of sorcery.  Take Detect Magic. Swap Protection from Good/Evil for Armor of Agathys.  Swap Sleep for Magic Missile.  Cry a bit as your teammates get awesome L3 spells and you, admittedly, do not.

Level 6: Sorcerer 3;  Your metamagics are Subtle and Twin.  You pick up Blindness and Aid and Lesser Restoration, and swap Alarm for Expeditious Retreat.  Every morning, you take the last watch.  You cast Aid on yourself, your Sprite, and one other ally.  Then you short rest the slots back, but you have 7-8 hours of HP buff.

Level 7: Sorcerer 4:  You obtain the Inspiring Leader Feat.  And Misty Step.  And Mind Sliver. You swap Lesser Restoration for Knock.  Because, after all, you are a tomb raider.  Now, each morning as your comrades awake, you give them some Inspiring Leadership for [level]+3 temporary hit points.  With Aid and this, your Sprite has 1+5+10=16 HP, so its not as fragile as it once was.

Level 8: Sorcerer 5.  Ah, finally level 3 spells: Dispel Magic and Protection from Energy (immediately swapped for Counterspell) and Gaseous Form add to your spell list (again we are a tomb raider, and this can be twinned).  1 Sorcery Point (we have 5 now) can be used to reroll an ability check very helpful for Dispel Magic or Counterspelling.

Level 9: Sorcerer 6 and Bastion of Law.  We pick up Major Image.  Now, our morning routine is to cast a level 2 Aid,  a 4 SP Bastion of Law on ourselves, and Inspiring Leader the whole party, and short rest so that we start fully ready to go by breakfast.  We gain 5 max hp, 18 hp of Bastion ward, and 12 temporary hit points.  That is +35 hp on top of our otherwise unremarkable 64 hp, for 99.  By contrast, the 16 Con L9 Barbarian has 115 hp.  We can beat him with Armor of Agathys if we want to.  And after this buff-fest, we are still a really strong  control caster.

Level 10: Sorcerer 7: we gain Dimension Door, Polymorph (from the immediately swapped-out Summon Construct) and Freedom of Movement.

Level 11: We gain Wall of Fire as our sorcerer 8 spell, and swap Freedom of Movement for Banishment.  As a level 8 sorcerer, we take Fey Touched and get a bonus Misty Step and Tashas Hideous Laughter, and +1 Cha (to 18), and swap our previous Misty Step for Phantasmal Force.

So  by level 11, we have a really tanky, facey, tricksy, near-full spellcaster, with great action economy, a spell-list that looks like a strong wizards, and a boatload of debuff/incapacitation spells (many better than a Wizard, as they are twinned and numerous due to warlock recharging L2 spell slots).

The level 11 loadout looks like this (with (t) designating a twinnable spell):
	Cantrips: Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Shape Water, Firebolt(t), Toll the Dead (t), Minor Illusion, Mind Sliver (t)
	Level 1: Disguise Self, Hex (t), Detect Magic, Shield, Tashas Hideous Laughter 1/LR (t)
	Level 2: Detect Thoughts, Suggestion (t), Levitate (t), Blindness (t), Aid, Knock, Phantasmal Force (t), Misty Step 1/LR
	Level 3: Dispel Magic, Gaseous Form (t), Counterspell, Major Image
	Level 4: Dimension Door, Polymorph (t), Banishment (t), Wall of Fire

This is a stunning spell list!  And with a spell DC of 15, 2 short-rest-recharging L2 spell slots, subtle and twin metamagics backed up by plus 8 sorcery points,  and 4/3/3/2 spells by character level 11, we are pretty good at casting them.  

Yes, we are three levels behind a straight sorcerer.  But in exchange for this, we get a big AC boost, 2 recharging short-rest slots, a smattering of good spells, a free big HP buff to ourself and a small one to one one ally, and most importantly, a super-helpful debuff on every bonus action ever (unless the Beefy Invisible Sprite is killed, which is not automatic the way we are buffing him to 21 HP by level 11).

Ideally we start the fight with a surprise round from our Sprite who debuffs the biggest threat.  Maybe we can get a round in too with a twinned Phantasmal Force, or a Banishment, or a Polymorph.  Or just a Mind Sliver so that we can take out the big bad more effectively in the next round.  With great defenses we can mix it up and hold concentration better than most.  Our side is so buffed by hit points, and their side is so debuffed with status effects, that our party should be able to handle much more threatening foes.

Could we give up the Vedalken for Variant Human and +2 CHA?  Yes, we could.  And maybe thats just my bit of flavor and latent love for the dranei race from some other game.  But I do enjoy the tomb raider vibe, and the +1d4 to Thieves Tools and Investigation, not to mention the Wisdom save advantage, are so much more flavorful.

I really like the way a near-full spellcaster can be so non-wimpy, and a very effective controller.  What do you all think?  Would love to make this build better.  Thanks for the thoughts!

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## Kuulvheysoon

I'll just point out that your plan requires 9 hour "Long rests", but other than that looks solid at a quick glance.

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## Atomicwraith

> I'll just point out that your plan requires 9 hour "Long rests", but other than that looks solid at a quick glance.


Here was the planned morning:
Sleep 6 hours; be on last watch.
Wake up at 6:00am.
Use an action to pee.
Use an action to cast a 4SP Bastion of Law.
Convert both Warlock L2 slots into 4 SP.
Wait for an hour watching the horizon for enemies, starting at 6:01.
At 7:01, when the Warlock slots pop back, I cast Aid on me, the Sprite and one lucky party member.  I can even give Aid to the rest of the party actually with the other Warlock slot.
Watch the horizon for another 59 minutes.
Party wakes up at 8:00am.
At 8:01am, the warlock slots pop back.  We break camp and get on with it.

So it takes just a touch more time than 2 hours.  Even less if I do not pee.

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## Kuulvheysoon

No, I mean that a Long Rest explicitly takes at least 8 hours, or you get zero benefit from it. Which is fine for your Warlock half, we don't care about those. But your sorceror levels _do_ need the full LR to regain its resources.




> A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activityat least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activitythe characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.


As I mentioned, it works perfectly fine if you take 9 hour LRs, and there's nothing wrong with that. But casting spells explicitly breaks the LR and you wouldn't regain any spell slots or sorcery points (unless we go straight out coffeelock!lite). I could see a DM allowing it, but I know that personally I'd just tell you that you're taking 9 hours.

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## Yan Korlat

*Paladin of Whimsy*

This build is focused on providing excellent DPS in the t3 and on game while maintaining incredible versatility. The central idea is using Divine Smite with Bard spellcasting and extra attack to smite more often than a full paladin can while buffing better as well, and improving your face skills. Elven accuracy and polearm master let you critfish hard, which is really nice with all the extra dice you add. A hexblade dip substantially increases DPS while reducing MAD-ness. I would not play this from level 1, because starting as paladin is a really good idea, which means you're waiting till at least 7 and probably 8 for extra attack. 

Role-play wise, I imagine this character as roughly Gurney Hallecka warrior through and through, but with a bardic flair. Flavoring hexblade as a cursed weapon could provide fun tension. 

*Half-Elf Paladin 2/Hexblade Warlock 1/College of Swords Bard X*
*Stats:* Cha 17/Str 15/Con 14/Dex 12/Wis 10Interestingly, standard array and point buy are identical for this build. 
*ASIs:* Elven Accuracy (18 Cha) @ 6, Polearm Master @ 11, 20 Cha @15, Mounted Combatant/Mobile/Ritual Caster @ 17.
*Fighting Styles:* Dueling, and either Blind Fighting or Defense, depending on if you have access to darkness.
*Weapons:* Spear+Shield

*Damage:* 
You hit your first power spike at 11, with Cha to attacks, greater invisibility, 3 attacks/turn, elven accuracy, dueling, plenty of spell slots to smite with, and flourishes. At this point, on rounds where you want something dead, you can comfortably put out DPR in the mid-80s after spending 1 turn pre-combat buffing with G. Invis and Hexblade's curse by using second-level smites and 1 flourish/round. For comparison, this is about 10 less than a Samurai Elven Accuracy Archer with action surge, but you're nova-ing less hard as well:  is about like the advantage from samurai, while your spell slots are a more plentiful resource than action surges, and hexblade's curse is equivalent. From there, DPS goes substantially up at 13 if you can find a non-concentration source of advantage, of which there are plenty (details below), with holy weaponbecause you crit on ~61% of turns, extra damage dice are really good. By 15, a medium sized nova (3rd level spell slots used liberally for smites, which gives you plenty of room for greater invisibility, more smites, or other bard spells) has a dpr in the high 160s against level-appropriate AC, which is one of the better damage numbers I've seen at that level. You can sustain roughly this nova level for about 3-4 rounds per long rest depending on how many spell slots you're willing to burn, which should be plenty. You also don't consume spell slots unless you land hits, so being out of melee is not devastating. If necessary, you can also choose to only smite on crits.  Both Hexblade and Bardic Inspiration recharge on short rest, so you get some utility from them, although you're still a casting class. From there, you slowly ramp up damage. 

*Defenses:*  Saving throws are a big weakness for this build. You don't have room for resilient, and Bard is not great at magical defenses other than countercharm, which is niche. However, your AC is really good. Shield+Plate+(Defense)+Defensive Flourish+Shield as a reaction if necessary is a resting ac in the 20-21 range, with an effective ac of 20/21+1d8/1d10+5. Add on greater invis, which you should be generally keeping up, and getting hit is unlikely. You also have lay on hands and healing word, which are both sometimes useful for healing but very useful to make allies conscious again. Taking counterspell as a magical secret is actually an option (bards make really good counterspellers do to JoAT, and you have close to maxed cha), but I think it's generally better to take holy weapon and find greater steed. 

*Out of combat*
You're a close-to-full-casting bard, close to maxed CHA, and a few extra spells and cantrips from paladin and warlock. You're very good at combat, but you're worth something out of combat as well. Also, if an encounter is excessively hostile to melee, you can actually fall back on a casting role-bards make quite good support casters, and you do eventually get 9th's with this build.

*Ways to get advantage*:
Without advantage, you lose a big chunk of your damage. In general, G. Invis is the best option until you get in terms of consistency for a long time, but there are a few reasons to not rely on it fully. The biggest is that it takes concentration, meaning you can't maintain holy weapon and g. invis, which is really unfortunate. It also doesn't work against blindsight. Some other ways to get advantage:
Blindness. It's not a great option, because it only works against one enemy and is useless on a save, but it's not a bad option.Blind Fighting+Some means of getting access to darkness. This one works better if another party member is using the same tactic.Your steed can actually help you if it acts independently, but that only works for 1 attack/turn.Paladin gives you thunderous smite, which lets you prone a target. Unfortunately, this eats your bonus action, and they can just get back up next turn.Foresight. Only works at 20, but once you get there, this is the best option, generally speaking.Mounted CombatantIf you can convince your DM to waive race restrictions, this actually works really nicely with a Kobold because of Pack Tactics, especially with a mount. See if you can wear a blindfold and take blind fighting to avoid Sunlight Sensitivity.

Overall, I think this is a really solid option for a higher level campaign, but is atrocious for the first few levels, especially from 5-7. If anyone is interested, I can post a more complete build with skills and a spell list.

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## DevanAvalon

...I've spent days trying to find this build. There was a build posted somewhere, either here or on the Beyond forums, about a Chainlock Halfling mafia boss. But all of my searching and google is failing me. Can someone help me find that build, and/or offer tips on making one? I vaguely remember it being a Mark of Hospitality Halfling...

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## mw_147

> ...I've spent days trying to find this build. There was a build posted somewhere, either here or on the Beyond forums, about a Chainlock Halfling mafia boss. But all of my searching and google is failing me. Can someone help me find that build, and/or offer tips on making one? I vaguely remember it being a Mark of Hospitality Halfling...


It won't let me post a link but I think you're looking for The Ringleader? It's in the list on the first page of this thread, number 110.

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## DevanAvalon

> It won't let me post a link but I think you're looking for The Ringleader? It's in the list on the first page of this thread, number 110.


THANK YOU. Oh my various stars, why didn't I think of looking for that name XD

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## ftafp

*The Fullmetal Botanist*
*Race:* Any (Elf, Mark of Shadow or Human, Mark of Passage are recommended)
*Class:* Artillerist 14/Shepherd 6
*Progression:* Artificer 1, Druid 1 -> Shepherd 6, Artificer 2 -> Artillerist 14
*Base Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, 13 Wis, 10 Cha
*ASI:* Int [email protected], Int [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
*Spells of Note:* Magic Stone, Mending, Goodberry, Cure Wounds, Entangle, Sanctuary, Shield, Aid, Pass Without Trace, Plant Growth, Conjure Animals
*Infusions:* Spellwrought Tattoo, Staff of Flowers, Chest of Preserving, Pipes of Haunting, Horn of Blasting
*Proficiencies:* Wood Wind Instruments

Let me ask you something: How do you like to fight? _Wood_ you like to like to _stalk_ your prey, _stick_ them where it hurts and _leaf_ them bloody stains on the ground before they even have the chance to move? Okay, sorry, those were in poor taste, but if I still have you on the line and you're interested in a plant-themed artificer who can't be stopped, this is the build for you.

*Tier 1 (1-4):*
Tier 1 starts strong on Artificer 1. For this tiny dip you get con saves, good cantrips, plenty of useful rituals, and armor proficiency. More importantly, you get the spells and proficiencies to quickly repair the gear of enemies you defeat and sell them for a profit, which is good because if you don't have enough cash for Spiked Armor by level 2 your AC will take a dive when you switch to druid. This might seem like an odd direction, but the combo has enormous synergy as you'll soon see. For now you get Goodberry, Entangle and plenty of other rituals to work with. Druid 2 puts you in the circle of the shepherd. Bear Spirit grants a fantastic amount of temp HP at this level but later on you might want to start using unicorn spirit instead. At Druid 3 you get great spells like Aid and Pass Without Trace. Pass Without Trace is your first major spell, and you might note it's also on the dragonmark spell lists for both races I mentioned. That will be important later as you'll soon see. Now, letting your entire party sneak about and avoid fights is great, but PWT is also a potent combat spell, capable of effectively granting the entire party a surprise round to act once per casting. Acting first is a big deal in combat, so this is a great gain. For most of tier 1 Magic Stone will be your combat cantrip of choice (You might reflavor this as Magic Nuts if you wish). You're going to want it off the artificer spell list as that's the stat you're going to be sinking ASIs into. Rest assured, it will only get better later on.

*Tier 2 (5-10):*
If Tier 1 came in like a lion, Tier 2 comes in like an irritable tarrasque who was rudely awakened from its nap. It's a bit of slow start at Druid 4, but when you get to Druid 5 this is where **** goes down. Plant growth is a potent control spell that doesn't use concentration. It has some limitations admittedly, but I'll get to ways around that in a bit. For now the focus is on Conjure Animals (or as I'll reflavor it for this build, Conjure Topiaries) has dozens of uses, can destroy enemies like nothing else and only scales in power with the abilities you'll get later. It also means you can destroy said enemies without lifting a finger yourself, so if you want to throw up sanctuary and spend your battle dodging nobody is going to blame you. Those summons only get beefier when you hit Shepherd 6, gaining 2 extra hp per hit die and also magical attacks.

At level 8 you're dipping back into artificer and here is where you start seeing some of the fantastic synergy. At this level there are 3 interesting infusions available to you. First on up is spellwrought tattoo (for fluff ours is an enchanted thorn instead of a needle and plant dyes for ink), which many of you might already know is broken but just how broken is a bit overlooked. See, your spellwrought tattoo is only disappears when the spell ends, meaning you can actually continue to cast said spell at will until the duration is up. Gift of Alacrity is one of the best spells to use this with, as you can give your whole party a massive buff to initiative rolls for the whole day (possibly netting you *two full rounds to act before enemies get a turn*) provided you remember to recast it on everyone before 8 hours are up. Contrary to popular belief, Replicate Magic Item is actually an exception to the rules on infusion duplication (there used to be an explicit line prohibiting this in the UA, but WotC conspicuously removed that line during printing without altering any of the surrounding text) so there's nothing stopping you from taking this twice, but you might also want to look into the other two items mentioned. The Chest of Preserving from Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage is a magic refrigerator you can use to store goodberries long-term, and the staff of flowers can actually provide you foliage to cast Plant Growth on no matter the terrain. Because plant creatures aren't considered magic, there's nothing keeping you from summoning living flowers (there are some whoppers out there like the corpse flower that deserve special mention), though many DMs will argue with you about that. That's a little lame admittedly, but what isn't is getting Shield and the Protection Turret you can summon at level 9. Getting to pump both your allies AND your summoned creatures full of temp hp every turn for an hour without using concentration is a bold ability. Note also that while cure wounds is normally a poor spell for using in combat, the fact that you have summons fighting for you combed with the fact that your unicorn spirit and your protection turret let you spread those saving on to the whole party, including summons, this is actually a great deal.

*Tier 3 (11-16):*
Okay, I'm getting tired of typing and I actually wanted to fit another build in here so let's make this fast. at level 11 you hit Artificer 5 and get Web and a bunch of other 2nd level spells that aren't that great. No matter, Level 12 you get your 6th level infusions, and with them Pipes of Haunting (or for this build, Reeds of Haunting). Concentrationless fear for 1 minute is a big deal and doesn't break sanctuary. Level 13 give you Flash of Genius which is always great. From there you have dearth of good features except for getting fireball and tiny servants at 15 (use the latter to bombard enemies with magic stones when your party doesn't need temp hp) and a 4th attunement slot at 16. You might want to fill the time with crafting items from the my Permanent Spell Guide.

*Tier 4 (17-20):*
Okay, bright and powerful new feature at 17, artificer 11 gives you a spell storing item. Web is a great spell to use this with, you now have 10 castings that are action and concentration free if you have a summon use it. It also means that if you chose one of the recommended races, you can have Pass Without Trace and Conjure Animals up at the same time, giving every one of those summons 2 turns to wreck shop. Finally, at level 20 we get the Horn of Blasting infusion, and this is where **** gets real. See, now you when you cast conjure animals you can summon an army of apes or baboons (or flying monkeys from Tomb of Annihilation) and have them pass multiples of these horns around, each one blasting one hell of a honk and destroying anything in their wake. The horns are breakable of course but only one summon will take the damage, so this is an excellent way to deal tremendous damage.

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## Kuulvheysoon

...okay, walk me through it. Theres got to be something Im missing, or were coming down differently on RAW here.

Ill admit I dont see why nabbing Spiked Armor is important here. Im assuming that youre going to claim that the spikes are made of wood, so it doesnt count as metal? I cant possibly see why else you would specify it - RAW, only Battlerager barbarians can use it as a weapon anyways.

I disagree fundamentally with your reading of _spellwrought tattoos_. The text reads:


> Produced by a special needle, this magic tattoo contains a single 1st level spell, wrought on your skin by a magic needle. To use the tattoo, you must hold the needle against your skin and speak the command word. The needle turns into ink that becomes the tattoo, which appears on the skin in whatever design you like. Once the tattoo is there, you can cast its spell, requiring no material components. The tattoo glows faintly while you cast the spell and for the spell's duration. Once the spell ends, the tattoo vanishes from your skin.


I see no interpretation in which you can cast the spell ad nauseum while the tattoo is active. From my reading, you use the tattoo, and it glows to show that you activated it, and it keeps glowing throughout the entire duration of the spell. Thats it.

Id absolutely make the argument that while the _goodberries_ created by the spell wouldnt rot in the Chest of Preserving, theyd lose their magical potency after the 24 hours were up. The spell explicitly states that the berries lose their potency if they have not been consumed within 24 hours of the casting of this spell. Not that they rot and disappear; they lose their magical potency and they become normal berries. So no, you cant create a bunch during your downtime and store them up.

Ill give you credit for the staff of flowers/_plant growth_ trick, though. Its silly, but RAW it absolutely works even though its hilariously stupid. But theres zero chance that you can summon a corpse flower with it. It specifically calls out that the flower is harmless and nonmagical, and it grows or withers as a normal flower would. You try that sort of stuff, you get a book thrown at your head. Monsters are creatures, which are not harmless.

For your 20th level trick I actually had no idea what you were talking about, so I went to my physical copy of TCoE and check whats up.I think I understand what youre saying, but its another area that Im going to have to dispute your reading of. Replicate Magic Item reads:


> Using this infusion, you replicate a particular magic item. You can learn this infusion multiple times; each time you do so, choose a magic item that you can make with it, picking from the Replicable Items tables below. A table's title tells you the level you must be in the class to choose an item from the table. Alternatively, you can choose the magic item from among the common magic items in the game, not including potions or scrolls.


Now, Im guessing that the underlined portion is what youre referring to when you say that Replicate Magic Item lacks the line about infusion duplication, and thats true well, kind of. Earlier it states that you cant learn an infusion more than once, and youre right in that this infusion specifically gets around that with the above line, but thats just so you could create a Bag of Holding and Eyes of Charming at the same time and wouldnt have to pick in between them.

But this doesnt override the limitation on infused items in the greater Artificer class. That line refers to picking that specific infusion multiple times, not being able to use that specific infusion multiple times. So you couldn't create dozens of Horns of Blasting with the infusion to pass around to your summons. Just.... no.

The rest is just generic minionmancy, which is admittedly extremely effective, and youve picked a good combo of Artillerist and Shepard.

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## ftafp

> Ill admit I dont see why nabbing Spiked Armor is important here. Im assuming that youre going to claim that the spikes are made of wood, so it doesnt count as metal? I cant possibly see why else you would specify it - RAW, only Battlerager barbarians can use it as a weapon anyways.


The text description says the armor portion is made out of leather. The spikes are "usually" made of metal, but there's no reason they have to be, and even if they are, that's still no different from studded leather, or like a pair of jeans with one metal button. Most jeans do have that, would you call jeans metal pants?




> I disagree fundamentally with your reading of _spellwrought tattoos_. The text reads:I see no interpretation in which you can cast the spell ad nauseum while the tattoo is active. From my reading, you use the tattoo, and it glows to show that you activated it, and it keeps glowing throughout the entire duration of the spell. Thats it.


the text says "Once the tattoo is there, you can cast its spell, requiring no material components." It does not specify only once. RAW the functionality is pretty clear, whether a DM choses to nerf it is up to them




> For your 20th level trick I actually had no idea what you were talking about, so I went to my physical copy of TCoE and check whats up.I think I understand what youre saying, but its another area that Im going to have to dispute your reading of. Replicate Magic Item reads:Now, Im guessing that the underlined portion is what youre referring to when you say that Replicate Magic Item lacks the line about infusion duplication, and thats true well, kind of. Earlier it states that you cant learn an infusion more than once, and youre right in that this infusion specifically gets around that with the above line, but thats just so you could create a Bag of Holding and Eyes of Charming at the same time and wouldnt have to pick in between them.
> 
> But this doesnt override the limitation on infused items in the greater Artificer class. That line refers to picking that specific infusion multiple times, not being able to use that specific infusion multiple times. So you couldn't create dozens of Horns of Blasting with the infusion to pass around to your summons. Just.... no.


When I first heard about this exploit I was in the same camp as you. it wasn't until I saw this comparison that I understood RAI




> Using this infusion, you replicate a particular 
> magic item. You can learn this infusion multiple 
> times; each time you do so, choose a *different*
> magic item that you can make with it, picking 
> from the Replicable Magic Items tables below. If 
> a table has a level in its title, you must be of at 
> least that level in this class to choose an item 
> from the table.





> Using this infusion, you replicate a particular 
> magic item. You can learn this infusion multiple 
> times; each time you do so, choose a
> magic item that you can make with it, picking 
> from the Replicable Items tables below. A table's title tells you the level you must be in the class to choose an item from the table.





> Using this infusion, you replicate a particular magic item. You can learn this infusion multiple times; each time you do so, choose a magic item that you can make with it, picking from the Replicable Items tables below. A table's title tells you the level you must be in the class to choose an item from the table.


Replicate magic items went through two revisions after the UA. The duplication clause was removed but nothing around it was touched. If this was an accidental deletion, one would expect they would have rewritten the entire sentence, which they didn't, they just deleted a single word. Even if it still was a mistake, they would have fixed it when revising it for TCE, which they didn't.

I suppose you could argue that this was sheer incompetence  I wouldn't put it past WotC to copy the entire section of text over by hand instead of copying in pasting  but even in cases like that Jeremy Crawford tends to dig his heels in. Just look at the whole issue with paladin fist smites. As far as I'm concerned this how the rules are intended

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## KyleG

Anyone got anything clever for an open hand monk 11+?

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## Mitchellnotes

> the text says "Once the tattoo is there, you can cast its spell, requiring no material components." It does not specify only once. RAW the functionality is pretty clear, whether a DM choses to nerf it is up to them


Relevant text: "Once the spell ends, the tattoo vanishes from your skin." If the tattoo vanishes, you wouldn't be able to use it again. Seems pretty clear its a one time use thing.

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## Amnestic

> Relevant text: "Once the spell ends, the tattoo vanishes from your skin." If the tattoo vanishes, you wouldn't be able to use it again. Seems pretty clear its a one time use thing.


The argument is that long duration spells (such as Gift of Alacrity or Mage Armour - 8 hour duration non-concentration) means that you can cast it repeatedly during the 8 hour duration on other people as well as yourself. 

Personally I find that interpretation disingenuous. I understand how it was reached, but I cannot imagine a DM actually letting it fly at their table.

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## Dalinar

Huh, never noticed that about Spellwrought Tattoo. Probably wasn't intended to be used that way, if I had to guess, but it would hardly be the first time something was accidentally written exploitably, right?

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## Kuulvheysoon

> The text description says the armor portion is made out of leather. The spikes are "usually" made of metal, but there's no reason they have to be, and even if they are, that's still no different from studded leather, or like a pair of jeans with one metal button. Most jeans do have that, would you call jeans metal pants?


No no no, I wasn't criticizing, just curious. You had some other RAW issues, and I wondering if you intended to use the Spiked Armor as a weapon as well as armor. If it's only the latter, it's a neat work around, assuming that your DM will allow you to find a set.




> the text says "Once the tattoo is there, you can cast its spell, requiring no material components." It does not specify only once. RAW the functionality is pretty clear, whether a DM choses to nerf it is up to them


 I'm with @Mitchellnotes here. The last sentence pretty clearly indicates to me that it's a single-use effect. Honestly, I wouldn't allow spellwrought tattoos to be used with Replicate Magic Item at all; imho the fact that they don't allow you to make scrolls or potions means that allowing spellwrought tattoos is an oversight. Would you allow ad naseaum use tattoos of _armor of agathys_ as well? It's a Common magic item; I'm aware that WotC isn't great at balancing, especially magic items, but they're not that bad.




> When I first heard about this exploit I was in the same camp as you. it wasn't until I saw this comparison that I understood RAI
> 
> Replicate magic items went through two revisions after the UA. The duplication clause was removed but nothing around it was touched. If this was an accidental deletion, one would expect they would have rewritten the entire sentence, which they didn't, they just deleted a single word. Even if it still was a mistake, they would have fixed it when revising it for TCE, which they didn't.
> 
> I suppose you could argue that this was sheer incompetence  I wouldn't put it past WotC to copy the entire section of text over by hand instead of copying in pasting  but even in cases like that Jeremy Crawford tends to dig his heels in. Just look at the whole issue with paladin fist smites. As far as I'm concerned this how the rules are intended


See, when I read that, it looks like they just want you to be able to make 2 Bags of Holding by picking Replicate Magic Item (Bag of Holding) twice. How you can interpret any reading of that which allows such a massive abuse of the system as the "intended" reading is beyond me.

I still honestly don't understand how you think that your alternate interpretation allows you to break the limit of infused items per day that the artificer can have. That's a hard limit, and the other big reason why I think that your interpretation of the RAI is incorrect.

----------


## Dalinar

Hm, I wonder if there's anything neat we can do with UA Dragonborn?

*FAE DRAGON'S WRATH*

*Spoiler: image spoilered for size*
Show




tl;dr UA Dragonborn + Dragon Fear feat + Fey Wanderer = loads of crowd control. A similar build can be done with Conquest Paladin, which is less MAD as well, but figured I'd demonstrate the Fey Wanderer version. Note that this build will possibly be obsolete in a couple months when Fizban's Treasury of Dragons comes out, depending on what if any changes are made.

Race: UA Metallic or Gem Dragonborn. You gain one resistance out of quite a few options (including stuff like force and psychic that are hard to come by), PB/long rest uses of a breath weapon, and a level 3 feature which is either a secondary breath weapon for Metallic or temporary flight for Gem. Personally, I'm leaning Metallic as the metallic breath weapon is more CC rather than damage, which fits with the nature of this build. 

Statline: Dump STR+INT. We want a high WIS and CHA for our save DCs on fear, especially WIS since the CHA-based ones will trigger a WIS-based reroll at Fey Wanderer 7. We want a high CON because everyone wants a high CON, and we need DEX for dealing damage and improving our AC and initiative. So we're pretty MAD. The best array I can figure is 16/16/14/12/8/8. I'd go 8 STR, 16 DEX, 14 CON, 8 INT, 16 WIS, 12 CHA. Switch the CHA and CON if you like to live dangerously.

Class loadout: Fey Wanderer, with an optional dip into Undead Warlock after at least 4, but realistically I'd wait until later.

Equipment loadout: medium armor, shield, quarterstaff. Carry a ranged weapon as a backup option.

---

At level 1, you'll want to use a ranged weapon and do standard Ranger things with it. At 2, you can grab Shillelagh through Druidic Warrior, allowing you to be a WIS attacker in melee. Do so as the situation calls for it. You have two breath weapon uses per long rest, although the AOE size on them isn't great.

At level 3, you're grabbing your subclass. Otherworldly Glamour makes you an excellent party face, as does Charm Person. Dreadful Strikes is a mild damage bump, which is welcome if not amazing. You're also getting your Metallic Breath Weapon or Gem Flight feature at this level. If you went Metallic (my preference), you can force a Strength or Constitution save on a 15-foot cone. The former knocks back 20 feet and knocks prone, while the latter incapacitates until the start of your next turn.

At level 4, we are taking the Dragon Fear feat. (Note that the way I'm reading it, you can't substitute the Metallic Breath Weapon to get another charge of this, but that's okay.) It's a half-feat; *bump Charisma if you're interested in the Undead Warlock dip later, as you'll need to hit 13 CHA to fulfill the multiclassing requirements.* Otherwise, Charisma still isn't a bad choice, but Constitution competes with it so that you can take Resilient and bump it later (because who takes Resilient and bumps Charisma with it?). As for the active ability, it allows you to substitute your two breath weapons per long rest with a 30-foot mass frighten (one per short rest if you are playing PHB Dragonborn), and the DC on it will be 11. Not great, but on a pack of creatures there's still a good chance you'll get a couple with it.

*Spoiler: Undead Warlock Dip*
Show

As you've now hit 13 CHA, you can dip Undead Warlock if you'd like another spammable source of the frightened condition. Two-hit Eldritch Blast will hold you over until you get Extra Attack next level. Personally, I'd wait until later, though. You have to actually hit with an attack to get the fear off from Form of Dread, and your DEX-based attacks are going to be way more reliable. Delaying further is also an option.


At level 5, Extra Attack comes online; our save DCs go up by 1; and we get another use of our breath weapon and therefore Dragon Fear. Misty Step is a welcome addition to our toolkit, allowing us to get in and out of the fray with ease. Further mobility comes to us at 6.

Level 7 is where things get interesting. We get advantage on saves against being charmed and frightened. However, more than that, Beguiling Twist is also a reaction that lets us respond to a successful save against charm or frighten by forcing another one--whether the success was an ally or an enemy. And since things are still fairly likely to make their saves against Dragon Fear, AND *they can repeat that save when they take damage*, this will come up a lot for us. You can also cast Charm Person in a pinch, giving you another way of triggering BT.

Level 8 I'd start bumping our WIS. Polearm Master is also an option for increasing your damage output, too.

Level 9 gives us lots of goodies as level 3 spells. Conjure Animals, Plant Growth, Summon Fey, Revivify; also Dispel Magic from our subclass. It also pumps up our proficiency bonus, making us better at nearly everything. Level 10 lets us use an action to gain temp HP and helps guard against exhaustion.

Level 11 is potentially really busted. Concentrationless Summon Fey is a big deal, especially if you have a round to spend before the combat proper starts. Getting a free one is icing on the cake. I'd cap WIS at 12, which may be a good point to get out of Ranger as the 4th-level spell selection leaves something to be desired (aside from Dimension Door from the subclass). You can take the Undead Warlock dip I mentioned here, grab a Sorcerer level for some cantrips and Shield, take Cleric or Druid levels to give yourself more spell slots to work with, or pick up Fighter levels to improve your burst with Action Surge and more.

---

A typical combat might look something like this: run into a group of 3-4 moderately powerful enemies. Use Dragon Fear. 1-2 of them will probably fail the save, despite your +1 Charisma. Use your reaction to force one to roll another save, this one against your significantly tougher Ranger DC. Misty Step back to the party if need be. Let the unfrightened ones come to you and the party while the frightened ones have to sit back and, at best, attack from range with disadvantage. Shillelagh and attack, or use something like Summon Beast, Summon Fey, or Spike Growth as the situation calls for it. Use Metallic Breath Weapon if you see a good opportunity to set it up.

For single-target fights, Dragon Fear may still be worth popping. Select a caster with a good WIS save in the party as a second target; if they succeed, you can Beguiling Twist the boss to force a second saving throw. If they fail, well, most casters don't mind the frightened condition too much, and you'll get a chance to BT when they succeed on the save reroll on their turn. Otherwise, rely on your minionmancy a little more.

Remember also that you're still rocking a pretty reasonable DEX score. If it's too dangerous to hop into the fray, standing back and shooting is a valid alternative. (Just remember that it's hard to do that and hold a shield at the same time.)

You're also a pretty solid face thanks to Fey Wanderer 3. This means that if your BBEG is humanoid, you can use Charm Person to have advantage on social checks versus them, along with a bonus that outstrips probably everyone but the Bard, who likely has multiple expertises where you only have one. Try convincing them to follow you down a dark abandoned alley or something.

----------


## Ganryu

The Blood Drinker 


*Race:* Dhampire 

*Starting Stats:* 
Str: 8, Dex: 15, Con 15 (+2), Int: 8, Wis: 15 (+1), Cha: 8

*Class:* Kensei Monk 11, Fighter 3, Kensei Monk X
*Feats:* Piercer 
*Skills:* Athletics... whatever you want! 

Outline: 
The bite attack from dhampires is a 1d4 con attack that heals you. It's really tempting to build around. So we will! 
Unfortunately, due to Vampire's Bite being a con based attack, Martial arts can't change it to dex based. However, it is considered a simple melee weapon... meaning our martial arts die DOES apply! 

This is a crit fishing build, meaning we generally wait until a crit to dump resources into it. Flurry of blows is less useful for us, it's something we can do, but Dex isn't needed above 16 ever.  

AC is a bit lower, but you have health out the wazoo, and lvl 17, you're healing 5d10+8 at once, out of nowhere, and at little cost. So you can take a hit, despite being a monk. 

Lvl 4, grab piercer. We mainly want the added crit die, but the rerolling damage can be nice. Honestly, our fangs aren't too useful til lvl 6, use a rapier til here. 

Lvl 6, this is when the build really comes online. Beforehand, we were a decent monk, but Kensei's Deft Strike is why we're here! This means we're doing 5d6+ 3 at this point on a crit, which we heal from, which it really just decent, but that's alright! Ditch the rapier, we're online. 

Lvl 8, Con + 2 is great, more chance to hit. 

Lvl 11 is nice for Sharpen the blade, +3 on your bite attacks is great. However, main reason to split here (if we want), is the martial arts die becoming a d8 makes this the best place. 

Now, we have a few choices we can make here. The problem with this build is we thrive on crits. Due to this, champion 3 is tempting to get the expanded crit range. Action surge is never bad. 


Option #1 - Take 3 level fighter dip
---------------

As far as fighting style, there's not a lot we get from this honestly. Interception is hilarious as by raw with our teeth we can catch blades flying at fellow party members. Dueling sadly doesn't work. Probably the best one, however, is superior technique. Pick up trip attack.   

This brings up a nice combo if you do go fighter here. Bite an opponent, and do the trip maneuver. Throw in a stunning strike for the helluva it. Use the vampire's bite ability of adding your damage to your next ability check. If they are either tripped or stunned, grapple them, with +2d8+1d6+4 added to the roll. Your 8 strength really isn't in the way here too much... IF you could grapple a tarrasque despite size difference, you'd be able to here.

You now have advantage on attacking the downed and grappled creature. Also, you know, anytime you're below half health.

You're losing out on both an ASI and Empty Body to do this. 

Option #2 - Pure Monk
---------------
Continue on as monk. By doing fighter, we eventually miss out on Empty Body, and empty body is incredible. Advantage on everything and resistance to everyone is amazing. And you get to final martial arts die upgrade faster.  HOWEVER! 

Your AC is never going to be 'good', so disadvantage against you isn't the best. Fighter does get advantage and crit on 19, which is nice. Not going to lie though, the resistance basically upgrades you from 'tough' to 'making the barbarian feeling insecure about his measurements.'

Option #3 - Either/or, but eating feats instead of ASI
--------------
At some point, grab Fey touched to grab hunter's mark. It's only a tiny bit of damage increase, and likely won't last long, but hey, the way this build works, every sliver of damage counts. 

Alternatively, tougness is never bad.Pure monk with it, empty body, 223 HP, resistance to everything, and healing is ridiculous.  Might as well solo the tarrasque, and hand him an eviction notice as far as toughest monster. 
--------------------------

Now, after lvl 11, when you return to monk, max out con ASAP. 

After this, go for wisdom. Stunning strike is amazing, and still is a core part of your build. Because flurry of blows isn't a priority on this build, you'll have more ki points in general to use. 


Good: 
Amazingly tanky. 203 HP as a monk is pretty bloody respectable. You have all the tricks of a monk, such as evasion on top of this, aaand you can spontaneously heal 5d10+8 up to six times. Your damage is decent with your attacks, if you go fighter, the grappling gives you some interesting control. You're a monk. Everything a monk can do, you're free to do as well! Good for skirmishing and controlYou can get the highest checks in the game in a hilarious way. Have a crucial check? Ask a party member for a little bit of blood. Add 2d10-5d10+8 to an ability check. Any ability check.  Watch the expression on the DM's face as you do so.You get advantage pretty damn easily. Everytime you're below half health, you have advantage. Small note, you can keep doing this, even when you're out of bloody drinking (ie. use all the proficiency bonuses of this attack)Potentially 89 on a perception check.


How on that last one? Read for yourself!!! 

Vampiric Bite. Your fanged bite is a natural weapon, which counts as a simple melee weapon with which you are proficient. You add your Constitution modifier, instead of your Strength modifier, to the attack and damage rolls when you attack with this bite. It deals 1d4 piercing damage on a hit. While you are missing half or more of your hit points, you have advantage on attack rolls you make with this bite.
When you attack with this bite and hit a creature that isnt a Construct or an Undead, you can empower yourself in one of the following ways of your choice:
You regain hit points equal to the piercing damage dealt by the bite.*You gain a bonus to the next ability check or attack roll you make; the bonus equals the piercing damage dealt by the bite.*You can empower yourself with this bite a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.


Bad: 

Ac is going to be perpetually between 16-18. It's going to feel like every single attack roll against you hit.Your damage, while respectable, is on the lower end.Crit fishing builds always look at your dice and ask 'do you feel lucky, do you?'

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## ftafp

*The Aurabot*

_Twilight Santuary, Aura of Protection, Pass Without Trace, Spirit Guardians. Some of the strongest spells and abilities in 5e, any one of these abilities can double a party's effectiveness. Combine all of them and what you have a recipe for an unstoppable force made of immovable objects_

*Race:* Elf, Mark of Shadow
*Class:* Hexblade 2/Watchers Paladin 7/Twilight Cleric 11
*Progression:* Paladin 1, Hexblade 1 -> 2, Paladin 2 -> Watchers 7, Twilight Cleric 1 -> 11
*Base Stats:* 14 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 13 Wis, 17 Cha
*ASI:* Fey Touched (+1 Cha, Gift of Alacrity)@6, +2 [email protected], [email protected]
*Invocations:* Agonizing Blast, Grasp of Hadar
*Fighting Style:* Defense
*Spells of Note:* Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast, Aid, Darkness, Find Steed, Pass Without Trace, Continual Flame, Spirit Guardians
*Equipment:* A mount, a bull's eye lantern

*Tier 1 (1-4):*
Let's see if we can get through this fast for once. We start off on Paladin for heavy armor proficiency then switch into hexblade for SADness and ranged attacks. Grasp of Hadar might sound like a weird pick compared to Repelling Blast and I won't hold it against you if you chose otherwise but here it's a surprise tool that will help us later. After that we switch back into paladin grab the defense fighting style since our AC isn't great. two levels of paladin will give you some decent spells like command, bless and shield of faith. I would advise a mount at this level, as paladins are generally made for melee, but in general being far away is better and a horse not only has a higher speed it can disengage on its own allowing you to zoom in and out.

*Tier 2 (5-10):*
At 5 we take our paladin subclass and our cantrips like EB and Booming Blade get a boost. At 6 Gift of Alacrity comes online which will help with our poor initiative, and our warlock slots will ensure we can hit the whole party with it at the start of the day. Level 6 is when we get extra attack, always classy, as well as some of our best spells. Pass Without Trace is our first big aura, a radius of stealth that can easily buy your party a surprise round giving them a full turn to act before the enemy. Aid is another banger, which will make your mount tankier as it will for your party You're going to want to cast this at the highest level at the start of every day. Find Steed will let you bring back the horse if it dies which is good news because we don't have ASIs to spare for Mounted Combatant. It also means that when you cast Shield your horse is protected too. We also get Darkness at this level, but ignore it for now. What we're here for is Aura of Protection at 8 and Aura of Sentinel at 9. The former is big enough that nothing needs to be said but the latter is particularly good as that surprise round advantage you had will be doubled when your allies reliably win every initiative roll. just to top things off, at level 10 we swap into cleric, gaining advantage on initiative rolls to counteract our own poor Dex modifier.

*Tier 3 (11-16):*
Tier 3 starts off with a whammy. Twilight sanctuary is going increase your whole party's tankiness by a ton, and then at 12 we get our 2nd level cleric spells, among them is Continual Flame, which most people dismiss as a piss-poor spell but we know better. When cast at 3rd level Continual Flame counts as a 3rd level spell and thus it's won't be dispelled by Darkness, so placing one inside a bull's eye lantern ensures that you can stay hidden while still seeing enemies illuminated by a cone of magical light. Mount this on your horse if you need to go on defense. your allies will be thrilled to have a darkness build that doesn't screw them over in the process. At 14 we get Spirit Guardians. As any cleric player can tell you, this is a big one. You might think that 13 Wis would render this useless, but the math disagrees. we're only missing 50% of the damage 20% of the time. That's only a loss of 1.35 damage per round per creature. Grasp of Hadar will more than make up for this, as enemies forcibly moved into your guardians immediately take damage, and then take damage again when they start their turn in your aura. At level 5 we get a second use of twilight sanctuary per short rest and a fly speed which can keep you 10 feet up and out of range of attacks. Grasp of hadar will do double duty here by dealing enemies an extra 1d6 fall damage and knocking them prone, which is great control. Then finally we get our 4th level spells

From here on out, all the cool stuff is now available, so I'm going to stop talking and post my favorite variant

*Spoiler: Variant: The Charioteer, AKA the Knight Bus*
Show



*The Charioteer, AKA the Knight Bus*
*Extra Equipment:* A chariot

This is something I originally made the whole build around, but I separated it out because I realized it could stand on its own. Mystic Odyssey of Theros added rules for chariots, and with them this build only gets nastier. See, one of the problems with being an aurabot is that most of the time the party is split in half. The melee folks charge into battle while the ranged combatants hang back out of range of attacks. Sadly, you can't be in two places at once. What would be better was if the whole party had a way to zoom for the meleefolk to attack and then zoom back out for the ranged party members to defend. One mount normally couldn't do all that, but the Chariot makes this easy, as according to the PHB section on vehicles, a chariot multiplies a mount's carrying capacity by 5. You might be thinking "wait, if they're all clustered together what's to stop the party being fireballed," and to that we have two answers: your aura of protection and the fact that the chariot provides half cover. isn't that nifty?

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## Ganryu

Short, but fun build: 

MEDIC! A non magical healer 


Race: Protector Aasimar (Honestly, doesn't matter as much, but you get an extra helping of healing equal to your level once per long rest. Halflings also work REALLY well for this. Variant human gets this build off the ground 1 level earlier. ) 
Class: Thief Rogue 20 
Goal: To keep everyone doing well, and to have never cast a spell the entire time. Why call upon a diety when we have bandages at home?
Feats: Healer, Inspiring Leader
Base stats: 
Str: 8, Dex: 15, Con: 14, Int: 8, Wis: 10, Charisma: 15 
As there's a racial choice, I won't list added racial boosts. 



This is a fairly simple build, but works off two interaction: 

Healer Feat: 
You are an able physician, allowing you to mend wounds quickly and get your allies back in the fight. You gain the following benefits:

When you use a healer's kit to stabilize a dying creature, that creature also regains 1 hit point.As an action. you can spend one use of a healer's kit to tend to a creature and restore 1d6 + 4 hit points to it, plus additional hit points equal to the creature's maximum number of Hit Dice. The creature can't regain hit points from this feat again until it finishes a short or long rest.

Thief: 
Fast Hands
Starting at 3rd level, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, use your thieves' tools to disarm a trap or open a lock, or take the Use an Object action.


'Use an Object' covers healers kit, and it's the using the object action that's part of the healer feat. This means you can pop someone back up as a bonus action. It's a fairly decent amount, 1d6+4+char level. They only get that healing once, however, you can pop them back up to 1 HP as many timess you like, as long as you have med kits. Expensive, but no spell slots required. 

Now, not only can you heal people, you can use items in the meanwhile to keep people away. I think caltrops are one of the most slept on items in the game. Long as someone steps on it, and they fail a DC 15 dex check (most monsters are bad at dex), their movement is stopped. Hilariously, this works no matter what size category.

Before battle, pop inspiring leader, and it buffs everyone a fairly significant amount with temp HP. 

All this together means you will be a pretty good support class ontop of being a rogue. You honestly only need the first three levels of Rogue to get thief to make this work. Fast hands is amazing, even if it can't be used on most magic items. After those 3 levels, you can do what you want, switching to either calvalier fighter, or bannerette for extra healing/damage reduction. Grab Interception fighting style if you do, knocking down damage is always helpful. 

Only goal of this build is to be a healer with no magic!

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## 8wGremlin

This is an alternative start to a Nuclear Wizard Build

Nuclear-Alchemist 5 /Wizard(Scribe) 2

The Alchemist Artificer's 5th level ability has an odd wording:



> You've developed masterful command of magical chemicals, enhancing the healing and damage you create through them.* Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemists supplies as the spellcasting focus*, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).


Coupled this with the Scribe wizards Awaken Spellbook to change magic missile to necrotic, or acidic for example 




> When you cast a wizard spell with a spell slot, you can temporarily replace its damage type with a type that appears in another spell in your spellbook, which magically alters the spells formula for this casting only. The latter spell must be of the same level as the spell slot you expend.


If your a Custom Linage, or equivalent, you could have 20 Int, by level 7  so each missile would do 1d4+1+5
All using INT as the casting stat.

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## stoutstien

> This is an alternative start to a Nuclear Wizard Build
> 
> Nuclear-Alchemist 5 /Wizard(Scribe) 2
> 
> The Alchemist Artificer's 5th level ability has an odd wording:
> 
> 
> Coupled this with the Scribe wizards Awaken Spellbook to change magic missile to necrotic, or acidic for example 
> 
> ...


You'll need to take the artificer initiate feat to cast wizard spells with your alchemist tools. you also have to have both the tools and book in hand for it to work which isn't impossible, very thematic actually, but it's a consideration.

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## Quietus

> You'll need to take the artificer initiate feat to cast wizard spells with your alchemist tools. you also have to have both the tools and book in hand for it to work which isn't impossible, very thematic actually, but it's a consideration.


Now I'm picturing an arcane engineer, spellbook in one hand, drafting tools in the other, forming their magic out of the physical intersection of lines and the raw perfection of geometry, but with a more physical bent than your classic geometer...

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## Asura2468

> The Blood Drinker


That build is really cool, but i wonder if the bite healing would also work with Way of Mercy Monks Hand of Harm cause i feel like the subclass is overall better then the Kensei and also more fitting cause you can reflavor most of its abilities to fit a vampire

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## Amechra

> That build is really cool, but i wonder if the bite healing would also work with Way of Mercy Monks Hand of Harm cause i feel like the subclass is overall better then the Kensei and also more fitting cause you can reflavor most of its abilities to fit a vampire


Nope! The Dhampyr's bite's riders are _specifically_ tied to the piercing damage you deal with the attack. The bite _also_ isn't an unarmed strike, so you can't use Hands of Harm on it anyway.

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## Ganryu

> That build is really cool, but i wonder if the bite healing would also work with Way of Mercy Monks Hand of Harm cause i feel like the subclass is overall better then the Kensei and also more fitting cause you can reflavor most of its abilities to fit a vampire




Yeah, sadly the build is limited in what it can be. The Vampire's Bite, which is what this entire build is centered off of is specifically a melee weapon attack, and a con based weapon melee attack that must deal piercing for this to wwork. This limitss us to two classes that can take advantage of it. What doesn't work real quick: 


Barbarian: Con based attack, not strength based, no rage bonus. 1d4 is pitiful


Rogue: Fangs aren't finesse, so no sneak attack. 


Fighter: Can work, but it's a 1d4 weapon. It's not the best option, and you can't make it better for the most part. Sadly, Dueling does not work with this as RAW as you don't hold your fangs in one hand. 


Paladin: You CAN smite with it, which is hilarious. But radiant damage doesn't add to your healing. That said, the advantage when under half health can definitely be a build in and of itself!  It's actually not bad, but you won't heal for much, and will be low health for this to be effective. But crit fishing as a paladin can be fun! 


Now, what builds does increasing piercing damage on a con attack work on? 


Ranger and Monk. (And war cleric, but that's, uh, bit different)


You can scale it with a monks martial arts die, but most monks aren't good with weapons. Kensei's the choice I picked because you can throw an extra martial arts die on when you crit for one ki point, so additional damage. Most monks subclasses have no way to increase damage on a weapon though. 


Ranger, it's the weaker of the two options, but actually could work quite well, especially hunter. Hunter's mark, Colossal slayer, favored foe, and Slayer's mark will both increase the piercing damage you deal. None quite get as good as the Kensei's potential output, but one could argue it's more consistent and ranger is the better class to have it on in the first place. 

Far as flavor goes, flavor is flavor, most DM's will let you flavor something however you like. 

If you want, I can build the ranger version of it.

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## Mitchellnotes

> Yeah, sadly the build is limited in what it can be. The Vampire's Bite, which is what this entire build is centered off of is specifically a melee weapon attack, and a con based weapon melee attack that must deal piercing for this to wwork. This limitss us to two classes that can take advantage of it. What doesn't work real quick: 
> 
> 
> Barbarian: Con based attack, not strength based, no rage bonus. 1d4 is pitiful
> 
> 
> Rogue: Fangs aren't finesse, so no sneak attack. 
> 
> 
> ...


I like rune knight for dhampir. The runes are con based, the bite damage to prof save works nicely with grappling (which rune knight is good at), and returning life is good with damage resists (also which the rune knight gets). The only downside is the d4 doesn't change (and lack of magical attack)

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## Maan

> Barbarian: Con based attack, not strength based, no rage bonus. 1d4 is pitiful


Actually I think that Beast Barbarian is very thematic coupled with Dhampyr, and might have some interesting synergy, like, you gain some added bonus raising Con. It's true you can't add the Rage bonus to the Dhampyr bite, but you do get Advantage for grappling.
Now, I'm not sure if the bite from Form of the Beast would stack with the Dhampyr's... GM's call, I guess.

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## Amechra

An alternate, _beautifully_ stupid idea would be to build a Dhampir Swords Bard. Cha/Con as a melee fighter is more synergistic than Cha/Dex/Con, you have a built-in way of pumping up your damage, and Slashing Flourish is dumb nonsense when combined with the Dhampir's bite, since as-worded the AoE damage from Slashing Flourish counts as bonus damage dealt by the weapon.

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## 8wGremlin

> An alternate, _beautifully_ stupid idea would be to build a Dhampir Swords Bard. Cha/Con as a melee fighter is more synergistic than Cha/Dex/Con, you have a built-in way of pumping up your damage, and Slashing Flourish is dumb nonsense when combined with the Dhampir's bite, since as-worded the AoE damage from Slashing Flourish counts as bonus damage dealt by the weapon.


 You got to be singing "NOM, NOM, NOM" as you do it though

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## ftafp

Swords bard is a good one. I've debated making a build around that but finding a way to supply the mandatory "Bag of Rats" can be a bit tricky.

the fact is, the dhampir's bite may be the best natural weapon available, but that doesn't make it a _good_ weapon. It makes more sense for a dhampir to use ranged weapons, heavy weapons or a quarterstaff for fighting and use the bite primarily for a pre-battle gnash to get a bonus to initiative rolls

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## Amechra

That's fair... I think Dhampyr Hexblade¹ 1/Swords Bard X might be a solid build. Go shield-and-spear PAM, pick up Piercer at some point (maybe to get your Dex to 14?), and call yourself Chad the Impaler.

¹ Boo! Hiss! Boring optimizer uses the boring option.

----------


## ftafp

> That's fair... I think Dhampyr Hexblade¹ 1/Swords Bard X might be a solid build. Go shield-and-spear PAM, pick up Piercer at some point (maybe to get your Dex to 14?), and call yourself Chad the Impaler.
> 
> ¹ Boo! Hiss! Boring optimizer uses the boring option.


Or you could go Rune Knight 3/Swords Bard X. As a large creature you could approximately double the amount of space that's considered within 5 feet of you. Chickens are only 2 copper pieces each, so make yourself absolutely chicken-infested and when you want to heal up or auto-pass an attack/check/save, all you have to do chow down and put up with the salmonella

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## Amechra

That's one of those things that would work once before the DM uses the power of _nope_.

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## OBoyd

> Swords bard is a good one. I've debated making a build around that but finding a way to supply the mandatory "Bag of Rats" can be a bit tricky.
> 
> the fact is, the dhampir's bite may be the best natural weapon available, but that doesn't make it a _good_ weapon. It makes more sense for a dhampir to use ranged weapons, heavy weapons or a quarterstaff for fighting and use the bite primarily for a pre-battle gnash to get a bonus to initiative rolls


It's a late game solution, but grabbing Phantom Steed with Bardic Knowledge would give you an easily replenishable source of snacks as well as a nice mobility bump.

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## Specter

Ok, I'll try:
*The Unsung Divine Scholar*
"I do what my god wants, and what my knowledge allows me to: uphold this civilization and protect those in it."

*Spoiler: Build at level 3*
Show

Human Order Cleric 1/Enchanter Wizard 2

Variant Human feat: Resilient (CON)

Attributes (point buy and +1 in CO, IN and WI):
ST8, DX14, CO14, IN16, WI14, CH8 

Skills: Arcana, History, Insight, Intimidation (Order Domain), Perception, Religion

Future ASIs: +4 INT - Lucky - Alert - Tough

AC: 18 (scale mail + shield) | HP: 22

SPELLS
C: guidance, light, thaumaturgy
1: |command, heroism|, bless, healing word, shield of faith

W: mind sliver, frostbite, message
1: fog cloud*, magic missile*, shield*, sleep*, tasha's hideous laughter*


Why is he unsung? Because he doesn't have any Charisma, and would prefer others to take the spotlight in his place!

At level 3, you have all your basic needs for this build: Hypnotic Gaze and bonus action spells. The basic strategy is to try to isolate the dumbest enemy with HG, but still help your allies with Healing Word and Shield of Faith, among other things. 

Order Cleric helps in this regard, because it has possibly the best level 1 cleric feature: cast a spell on an ally, and they get a reaction attack. That is a massive buff, and party members will love it. With a familiar, that attack can even come with advantage, and rogue allies in particular become twice as deadly. Basically, Order Cleric allows us to still be very relevant in combat, even after locking down one of the enemies.

Armor Class would be a problem going pure Wizard, but with the cleric dip we have 18AC, with a potential for 25 (Shield + Shield of Faith). Crucial to get closer to enemies like we want to.

If you can't get close to enemies, or don't think they would fail their HG save, no problem: buff allies with Bless/etc. and deal damage with cantrips/heal when needed.

*Spoiler: Build at level 7*
Show

Human Order Cleric 1/Enchanter Wizard 6
ST8, DX14, CO14, *IN18*, WI14, CH8 

SPELLS
C: guidance, light, thaumaturgy
1: |command, heroism|, bless, healing word, shield of faith

W: mind sliver, frostbite, message, prestidigitation
1: absorb elements, magic missile, shield, tasha's hideous laughter
2: dragon's breath, enlarge/reduce, misty step
3: dispel magic, haste, hypnotic pattern


With 3rd-level spells onwards, modus operandi should change to: 1) cast a high-value concentration spell; 2) use Hypnotic Gaze; 3) use bonus action spells.

Instinctive Charm gives us a few other ways to play: you can use HG more comfortably, knowing you can direct the enemy to attack your charmed one, or even deliberately provoke opportunity attacks with Shield to get them to attack their allies. 

In terms of spell selection, you should focus on these categories: 1) Misty Step and other useful bonus action spells, 2) buffs, and 3) the rest. 

Needless to say, spells like Dispel Magic, Fly, Haste, Protection From Energy and Remove Curse significantly increase in value if they grant an ally an attack as well. 

*Spoiler: Build at level 11*
Show

Human Order Cleric 1/Enchanter Wizard 10
ST8, DX14, CO14, *IN20*, WI14, CH8 

SPELLS
C: guidance, light, thaumaturgy
1: |command, heroism|, bless, healing word, shield of faith

W: mind sliver, frostbite, message, prestidigitation, toll the dead
1: absorb elements, shield, tasha's hideous laughter
2: enlarge/reduce, misty step, suggestion
3: counterspell, dispel magic, haste, hypnotic pattern
4: charm monster, fire shield, polymorph
5: dominate person, hold monster


Now we are more focused toward single-target enchantment spells, because we can twin them at will. It really makes a huge difference in how you play. Coincidentally, it also applies to Command and Heroism, for what it's worth. 
Hypnotic Gaze DC is now 17, and with party coordination it shouldn't be too hard to nail down most monsters with it. And so on.  
_______________________________________________

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## Withershins

Still checking this thread fairly regularly - 

Hope that all are well.

I have discovered the amazing resource of Play by Post, currently via ROLEGATE


I wished that I had found this resource earlier - as I am now able to maintain several games at once - despite being very busy with work and family.

I have taken inspiration from several of the builds listed here and have been having a very good time searching the build database and then adjusting the core concepts proposed by the posters to my needs and then putting all of the personal RP backstory and flair onto them.

Thanks all for what you do and as always looking forward to reading the builds that you are all working on!

Also, LudicSavant - thanks for beginning this thread and following this format. Eagerly awaiting your next build as well.

Hope you all have a chance to check out Play by Post - wishing all health and safety and peace :D

Wither

----------


## RogueJK

> At level 3, you have all your basic needs for this build: Hypnotic Gaze and bonus action spells. The basic strategy is to try to isolate the dumbest enemy with HG, but still help your allies with Healing Word and Shield of Faith, among other things. 
> 
> Order Cleric helps in this regard, because it has possibly the best level 1 cleric feature: cast a spell on an ally, and they get a reaction attack. That is a massive buff, and party members will love it.
> 
> With 3rd-level spells onwards, modus operandi should change to: 1) cast a high-value concentration spell; 2) use Hypnotic Gaze; 3) use bonus action spells.
> 
> ...
> 
> Basically, Order Cleric allows us to still be very relevant in combat, even after locking down one of the enemies.


What do you envision they're doing to be relevant in combat, after using their Action each round to apply/maintain Hypnotic Gaze?

Is it simply casting Healing Word or Shield of Faith every round to trigger Voice of Authority?  That's going to quickly eat spell slots, and SoF in particular will run into Concentration conflicts with your higher level "high-value Concentration spells".

Seems like you'd want something else available to reliably utilize your Bonus Action, even if it meant not triggering Voice of Authority every single round.  Going to 3 levels in Cleric for Spiritual Weapon could be useful, but that still eats spell slots (although it's 1 per combat versus 1 each round), and also puts you a full spell level behind in Wizard spells known.  

And/or maybe consider the Telekinetic feat for BA repositioning?  5' shove isn't super great, but it's not nothing.


Perhaps an even better option for a build that relies on Hypnotic Gaze Action + Bonus Action Additional Attack would be something like Enchantment Wizard 2/Battle Smith Artificer X, for the Bonus Action Steel Defender attack.  It takes a little while to come online (Character Level 5), and your Steel Defender would be 10 HP behind a straight classed Artificer, but you'd have a resourceless way to utilize your Bonus Action to trigger an attack that doesn't burn through spell slots each time.  And besides its HP, the Steel Defender depends on Proficiency Bonus and Spell Attack modifier, not Artificer level, so you wouldn't be missing out on much there with your 2 level Enchanter dip.  (You could even do Order Cleric 1/Enchantment Wizard 2/Battle Smith Artificer X, if you still wanted to maintain the option for also occasionally triggering Voice of Authority using BA spells in lieu of Steel Defender attacks.)

Call it the *Hypnotic Smith*.  (Maybe he's crafted a set of 1950s-style "Hypno-Goggles" with those swirling spiral patterns in the lenses, with which to mesmerize his enemies.  :Small Big Grin: )

Rock Gnome Enchantment Wizard 2/Battle Smith Artificer 3, going Artificer 1 (or 3) > Enchantment Wizard 2 > Battle Smith Artificer 3.  Starts Artificer for CON save proficiency, and Medium Armor/Shield right off the bat.
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 15+1
INT 15+2
WIS 10
CHA 8
Skills: Arcana, Perception, Investigation, Acrobatics
Spell Slots: 4/3
Artificer Cantrips: Guidance, Fire Bolt
Artificer 1st Level Spells: Faerie Fire, Cure Wounds, Sanctuary, Disguise Self
Wizard Cantrips: Mind Sliver, Mending, Mage Hand or Message
Wizard 1st Level Spells: Fog Cloud, Thunderwave, Absorb Elements, Magic Missile, Shield, Detect Magic, Find Familiar (R), Unseen Servant (R)

Wear medium armor and wield a shield.  If your Hypnotic Gaze doesn't stick, or you're down to the last enemy in an encounter and drop the HG, then just revert back to the Battle Smith's INT-based melee attacks.

From W2/A3, go straight Artificer, picking up Fey Touched (+1 INT) at Artificer 4, +2 INT at Artificer 8, and then something like Lucky at Artificer 12.

----------


## ClockALock

I absolutely adore the Kyujutsu Master and Gun-Kata Master, but something I've been wondering is how Gun-Kata Master deals with the Loading property. The build doesn't take Gunner until level 8, so how do you deal with not having Extra Attack for three levels?

----------


## LudicSavant

> I absolutely adore the Kyujutsu Master and Gun-Kata Master, but something I've been wondering is how Gun-Kata Master deals with the Loading property. The build doesn't take Gunner until level 8, so how do you deal with not having Extra Attack for three levels?


You can use a bow prior to taking the Gunner feat, and thus use Extra Attack freely.  

I decided not to rush the feat because I regarded Sharpshooter as a higher priority, because guns are expensive (which can actually matter in early levels, depending on the table), and because I didnt mind using a bow for a bit concept-wise (I mean, unless youre starting with over 500 gold, youre going to have to begin your life as an archer or crossbowman regardless).

----------


## Wraith

EDIT: It's been pointed out that this build doesn't work as described - on my own misunderstanding, the extra actions provided by Haste and Action Surge only allow one attack each, rather than the 4 from a 'full attack' that I was expecting. It actually only manages 11 attacks per round which is still kind of interesting, but not the dizzy heights I had hoped for. I'll leave it in as I like the theme and it might be of interest to someone, but it's not as grandiose as advertised.

Thank you to *Amechra* for proof-reading and corrections, it's greatly appreciated.

*The Chainsaw Warrior*



One of my previous builds was the Oxymoronic Meat-Grinder, a character that - under extremely specific and mostly unlikely conditions - could swing for nearly 40 attacks per turn. This character is in a similar vein, begging the question; how many times can you attack in one round, but this time consistently? Its not the most complicated build ever created, but it aims at an attainable goal and its a nice image to have in mind while you play, I think.

*Race:* Lizardfolk
*Class:* Fighter 20 (Eldritch Knight)

*Starting Stats (Without TCoE):* STR 15, DEX 14, CON 12 (+2), INT 10, WIS 13 (+1), CHA 8
*ASIs:* Sentinel, Polearm Master, Dual Wielder, Great Weapon Master, Crusher (or Piercer) (+1 STR), +2 STR, +2 STR

*The Build*
Fighter 1 - 20. Thats it, really - you pick up Extra Attacks x3 and the Fighting style to support Two Weapon Fighting, and youre already at 5 attacks per round, every round. Action Surge takes that up to 10 attacks in a single round, a couple of times today. Jobs done.

...Not really. We can go deeper.

The _Sentinel_/_Polearm Master_ combination is a classic combination that gives you reach and flexibility, as well as a VERY good chance of getting a Reaction attack every round, for your 11th swing. The _Dual Wielder_ feat helps with this, allowing you to use two Quarterstaffs (or Spears) at the same time and gain extra damage or battlefield control, depending on which you like best out of _Crusher_ or _Piercer_ (which, conveniently, rounds off STR to 20, too).

Stab something 11 times with a +3 Spear and adding +5 to STR, gives you a minimum damage output of 99 before rolling dice (which you can reroll with _Piercer_, for extra consistency), so SOMETHING is probably going to die. When it does. Did you know that despite the name, the _Great Weapon Master_ feat works with any melee weapon so you can almost certainly make a 12th attack of the round? Weird, that.

Now, thats just raw Fighter - you can do that as the worst sub-class in the game, never bothering to use your Archetype features and youre still a living chainsaw of damage. The next question is, what makes it even better?

I chose Eldritch Knight. There are a lot of secondary effects in this subclass that make it a strong choice, mostly for the utility of your spells giving you things to do when youre out of combat. The key thing to remember is to take spells that dont require an attack roll or a spell save - your stats arent really built for that sort of offence, so for or purposes _Magic Missile_ is better than _Fire Bolt_, _Shield_ is better than _Earth Tremor_, _Fire Shield_ is a better choice over _Sickening Radiance_, and so on. 
Similarly, try not to take spells that require concentration because your primary goal is to pick up *Haste*. This appears at level 14, which is a little on the late side, but as soon as you get it we shoot for the moon.

Your nova turn goes like this:
+5 attacks, with Extra Attack x3 and Dual Wielding.
+5 Attacks from Action Surge (Full Attack action).
+5 Attacks from Haste (Full Attack action)
+1 Attack (very likely) from provoking a Reaction.
+1 Attack (very likely) from Great Weapon Master.

And, because youre a Lizardfolk, you can spend your Bonus action to _Bite_ someone into the bargain. 18 attacks in the first round, 18 in the second (having spent _Bite_ we instead use the off-end of one weapon, thanks to _Polearm Master_), and 13 attacks in every round thereafter; and unlike the Oxymoronic Meat-Grinder you can focus everything on one target (who can be almost anyone you can see thanks to _Arcane Charge_) save for the single Great Weapon Master attack.

108 damage in one turn before rolling a dice or owning a magical weapon. If your battle-cry isnt BRRRRRR!!!!! then you should be very disappointed.

EDIT: As mentioned above, I fouled up the rules for action economy and misread the spell. It's more like this:

+5 Attacks with Extra Attack and Dual Wielding (Which eats the bonus action)
+4 Attacks from Action Surge
+1 Attacks from Haste
+1 Attack from a Reaction

11 in total. Admittedly you have redundant ways to make extra attacks if you want variety - Dual Wield or a Bite attack or a Great Weapon Master attack, for example, and 2+ ways of provoking Reactions reliably. That's still (with 20STR) something like 66 minimum damage without rolling dice or adding bonuses for magical weapons or such, so it's not completely hopeless.

*Alternative Build*

With a bit of tweaking, the stats will work with Variant Human and you can start picking up key feats even earlier. _Mage Slayer_ is thematic if you're absolutely determined to pick up your Reaction attack every round, or if you're taking a lot of hits then you may wish to exchange your second Quarterstaff for a finesse weapon and let _Defensive Duellist_ take off some of the heat. 
Between that and your protective spells you probably won't need _Resilient_ or _War Caster_ very often, but if you want to vary your play style a little for when you're not nova-ing then that can let you be a more traditional Eldritch Knight and use spells other than _Haste_.

----------


## ClockALock

> You can use a bow prior to taking the Gunner feat, and thus use Extra Attack freely.  
> 
> I decided not to rush the feat because I regarded Sharpshooter as a higher priority, because guns are expensive (which can actually matter in early levels, depending on the table), and because I didnt mind using a bow for a bit concept-wise (I mean, unless youre starting with over 500 gold, youre going to have to begin your life as an archer or crossbowman regardless).


Yeah, I can imagine getting sharpshooter + elven accuracy going first is more important than 1d8 vs 1d12 damage. I'm starting a game at level 5 soon and was planning on using Gun-Kata Master. Never occurred to me that you could just...not use a gun for a few levels, lol. Thanks!

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## Amechra

There are a few problems with your build, Wraith:
 Haste explicitly limits you to making a single attack if you use the action it gives you to take the Attack action. Action Surge doesn't double up your bonus action attacks. Great Weapon Master's bonus attack uses your bonus action.

Your build is capped at 11 attacks, sadly.

----------


## Ganryu

> There are a few problems with your build, Wraith:
>  Haste explicitly limits you to making a single attack if you use the action it gives you to take the Attack action. Action Surge doesn't double up your bonus action attacks. Great Weapon Master's bonus attack uses your bonus action.
> 
> Your build is capped at 11 attacks, sadly.


Yeah, if we're wanting ungodly amount of attacks, Bardcher's way to go. 

College of swords, variant human. Grab Crossbow mastery, use your bonus action as an attack. 

At lvl 6, you're at 3 attacks at turn
At lvl 10, grab greater steed and haste. Haste works on greater steed specifically, which should have 2 attacks per turn, making it 3. This is 4+ 3 = 7 attacks. 

LVl 14 grab simulocrum, and you now have 14 attacks per turn pretty consistently. Go two levels fighter, you get action surge, making it possible 28 for one turn only at lvl 16. 

Granted, this doesn't come online til lvl 10, and relies on cheese. Much smaller version of this can be done with star druid for lvl 3 for people doing low level campaigns.

Star druid, can do an arrow attack as a bonus action, 1d8+wis. 
Summon Beast,  1d8+6 
Then your action, just a regular ol' crossbow bolt (get it from some racial trait, too lazy to find specifics right now.) 

For lvl 3, which is much more reasonable for most campaigns, the druid is making the fighter cry in a corner, doing 1d10 +2d8+12 consistently every turn. Even later on, it's decent damage for really little resources. 


Or, if we really want to just blow out number of attacks made in one round: 

Necromancer Wizard. It just... it kills games. What's worse, it doesn't NEED it's spells above lvl 6,  it just needs spell slots. Which means you can actually multiclass into another spell caster, and lose nothing. Throw on twilight cleric. All your undead now have +14 temp HP every turn, making them more resistant to fireball. Twilight Cleric's broken. 

I don't care what other classes had for number of attacks, you're now winning. 

I might do a build of that. 6 Necromancer/ 14 twilight.

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## Wraith

> There are a few problems with your build, Wraith:
>  Haste explicitly limits you to making a single attack if you use the action it gives you to take the Attack action. Action Surge doesn't double up your bonus action attacks. Great Weapon Master's bonus attack uses your bonus action.
> 
> Your build is capped at 11 attacks, sadly.


...Jesus, I even have D&D Beyond open in front of me at the "Haste" spell. I have no idea how I fouled that up so badly - I think I read "additional action" then got excited and stopped.  :Small Tongue: 

Thank you, nonetheless. Back to the drawing board....




> Star druid, can do an arrow attack as a bonus action, 1d8+wis.
> Summon Beast, 1d8+6
> Then your action, just a regular ol' crossbow bolt (get it from some racial trait, too lazy to find specifics right now.)


If you're going for more attacks by summoning creatures, Shepherd Druid blows everything else out of the water. Bear Spirit plus Conjure Animals upcast to level 5 gets you 16 wolves each with an additional 8+Level HP, attacking with advantage. They act as a group, so it's just a blob of 16 attacks, plus whatever the Druid itself wants to throw out.

At higher levels, 32 wolves (with extra HP, advantage from pack tactics and with magical attacks) acting as one group isn't out of the question.

----------


## Amechra

Summons are cheating, you guys. :p

The highest number of attack rolls I've been able to come up with is a Sorcerer 17/Fighter 2/Warlock 1. _Scorching Ray_ fires [spell level + 1] rays, which each have their own attack roll. If you cast a 9th level _Scorching Ray_ with your main action, an 8th level _Scorching Ray_ with your surged action, and quicken _Eldritch Blast_ as a bonus action, you're making 23 attack rolls. I'm actually not _100%_ that this works (my understanding of rules for action surges and multiple spells per turn is a bit fuzzy), but even if, say, you could only cast the one _Scorching Ray_ and two cantrips, you'd still be making 18 attack rolls.

*EDIT:* Or just, you know, get 19 attacks by casting an 8th level and a 9th level _Scorching Ray_.

...

Also, the number of attacks for the Bardcher are straight-up wrong. You actually end up with (2+2+1+4)x2 = 18 attacks, since you only get two extra attacks from Action Surge. And you're being _lame_ by using a Simulacrum and claiming that the attacks it makes are _totally_ yours, honest, I swear on me mum.

*EDIT:* One avenue for making a _ton_ of attacks:

Bladesinger 6/Eldritch Knight 11/Gloomstalker 3, picking up the Magic Initiate (Warlock) feat for _Eldritch Blast_ and the Metamagic Adept feat for Quicken Spell.

Picture the scene: it's the first round of combat, and we pre-cast _Haste_. What does this mean?

 We have *four* weapon attacks per attack action this round (three from Fighter + one from Gloomstalker). We can make *three* Attack actions this turn (our normal action, the _Haste_ action, and Action Surge) Now, normally this would allow us to make *nine* attacks. But, lo and behold, someone had a _terrible_ idea when they rewrote the Bladesinger! We can replace a single weapon attack in each of our Attack actions with _four_ spell attacks from _Eldritch Blast_. This brings us up to *fifteen* attacks (if you don't allow the Bladesinger Extra Attack clause to apply to your Haste Attack) or *eighteen* attacks (if you do). Finally, we can Quicken _Eldritch Blast_ with our bonus action to bring our total up to either *nineteen* attacks or *twenty-two* attacks, depending on how you interpret _Haste_-y Bladesingers.

I think nineteen might _actually_ be the largest number of attacks you can make in a round without interacting with questionable rules or including summons/simulacra/etc.

*EDIT EDIT:* Actually, no, I'm dumb. A Fighter 2/Sorcerer 18 can go Action:[Cast a 9th level _Scorching Ray_] → Action Surge:[Cast an 8th level _Scorching Ray_] → Haste Action:[Make a single weapon attack] → Bonus Action:[Make an off-hand attack] for *twenty attacks*.

----------


## Wraith

> Summons are cheating, you guys. :p


Summoning 32 Magical Wolves sounds like a build that is both eclectic *and* effective, to me! Maybe not in the context of "most attacks from one character" but it certainly has a place in this thread  :Small Tongue: 




> *EDIT EDIT:* Actually, no, I'm dumb. A Fighter 2/Sorcerer 18 can go Action:[Cast a 9th level _Scorching Ray_] → Action Surge:[Cast an 8th level _Scorching Ray_] → Haste Action:[Make a single weapon attack] → Bonus Action:[Make an off-hand attack] for *twenty attacks*.


How do you feel about swapping Scorching Ray for Magic Missile? I know that it doesn't require an attack roll, but when up-cast the latter does 3+Level bolts so that makes 12+11+2 "attacks" in a round, and being unable to miss only sounds like an upgrade. We're getting into Nuclear Sorcerer territory here, but on paper we would record it as "I have hit you 25 separate times in one round" and frankly most things won't be in a position to argue afterwards  :Small Big Grin:

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## kaervaak

A bladesinger 17/echoknight 3 under the effect of shapechange and haste can do more i think

Shapechange into a marilith with 7 attacks -> attack, action surge attack, haste attack + unleash incarnation, replace the unleash incarnation attack with eldritch blast (this one is a little questionable but I think it works RAW), bonus action quicken eldritch blast (metamagic adept). You need to get eldritch blast from magic initiate, but this gives 14 + 1 + 8 attacks, for 23 attack rolls.

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## Amechra

> Summoning 32 Magical Wolves sounds like a build that is both eclectic *and* effective, to me! Maybe not in the context of "most attacks from one character" but it certainly has a place in this thread


I don't think it counts as "eclectic" at this point in the system's lifespan, especially since the _myriad_ ways that summons break bounded accuracy have been cataloged at this point. :p




> How do you feel about swapping Scorching Ray for Magic Missile? I know that it doesn't require an attack roll, but when up-cast the latter does 3+Level bolts so that makes 12+11+2 "attacks" in a round, and being unable to miss only sounds like an upgrade. We're getting into Nuclear Sorcerer territory here, but on paper we would record it as "I have hit you 25 separate times in one round" and frankly most things won't be in a position to argue afterwards


I'm defining "attacks" in terms of "requires an attack roll"  in essence, it isn't an attack unless _Hex_ adds bonus damage to it. Otherwise, yeah, Magic Missile would be the strongest candidate.




> A bladesinger 17/echoknight 3 under the effect of shapechange and haste can do more i think
> 
> Shapechange into a marilith with 7 attacks -> attack, action surge attack, haste attack + unleash incarnation, replace the unleash incarnation attack with eldritch blast (this one is a little questionable but I think it works RAW), bonus action quicken eldritch blast (metamagic adept). You need to get eldritch blast from magic initiate, but this gives 14 + 1 + 8 attacks, for 23 attack rolls.


I'm don't think that you can use Unleash Incarnation with your Marilith attacks  the Marilith's seven-attack routine is listed as "Multiattack", not the Attack action. Yes, this is a _little_ pedantic, but pedantry is what the situation calls for!

Though this actually gives us an avenue to _absurd numbers of attacks_:

Bladesinger Wizard 6/Echo Knight Fighter 11/Gloomstalker Ranger 3.
*Feats:* Magic Initiate (Warlock), Metamagic Adept (Quicken Spell and ???)
*Conditions:* First round of combat w/ a pre-manifested echo.

On this one _glorious_ turn, you can make up to *five* attacks per Attack action (3 from Fighter, +1 from Gloomstalker, +1 from Unleash Incarnation).
Each of those actions are Attack actions, so you can replace one of the attacks with _Eldritch Blast_, bringing you up to *eight* attacks per Attack action.

If you go Action:[Attack] → Action Surge:[Attack] →_Haste_:[Attack] → Bonus Action:[Quickened _Eldritch Blast_], you are making 8+8+1+4 attacks, for a total of *twenty-three* attacks. If the DM allowing this nonsense also allows you to swap the _Haste_ attack for another _Eldritch Blast_ (you can't use Unleash Incarnation with that Attack action, thanks to _Haste_'s limiting clause), you end up with *twenty-six* attacks, which you can conveniently label using all of the letters of the alphabet!

----------


## kaervaak

> I don't think it counts as "eclectic" at this point in the system's lifespan, especially since the _myriad_ ways that summons break bounded accuracy have been cataloged at this point. :p
> 
> 
> 
> I'm defining "attacks" in terms of "requires an attack roll"  in essence, it isn't an attack unless _Hex_ adds bonus damage to it. Otherwise, yeah, Magic Missile would be the strongest candidate.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm don't think that you can use Unleash Incarnation with your Marilith attacks  the Marilith's seven-attack routine is listed as "Multiattack", not the Attack action. Yes, this is a _little_ pedantic, but pedantry is what the situation calls for!


Yeah sadly multi-attack doesn't qualify for bladesinger's swap or unleash incarnation. I didn't include those in the calc.




> Though this actually gives us an avenue to _absurd numbers of attacks_:
> 
> Bladesinger Wizard 6/Echo Knight Fighter 11/Gloomstalker Ranger 3.
> *Feats:* Magic Initiate (Warlock), Metamagic Adept (Quicken Spell and ???)
> *Conditions:* First round of combat w/ a pre-manifested echo.
> 
> On this one _glorious_ turn, you can make up to *five* attacks per Attack action (3 from Fighter, +1 from Gloomstalker, +1 from Unleash Incarnation).
> Each of those actions are Attack actions, so you can replace one of the attacks with _Eldritch Blast_, bringing you up to *eight* attacks per Attack action.
> 
> If you go Action:[Attack] → Action Surge:[Attack] →_Haste_:[Attack] → Bonus Action:[Quickened _Eldritch Blast_], you are making 8+8+1+4 attacks, for a total of *twenty-three* attacks. If the DM allowing this nonsense also allows you to swap the _Haste_ attack for another _Eldritch Blast_ (you can't use Unleash Incarnation with that Attack action, thanks to _Haste_'s limiting clause), you end up with *twenty-six* attacks, which you can conveniently label using all of the letters of the alphabet!


I'm pretty sure you can use unleash incarnation with the haste attack. It limits you to 1 weapon attack, but unleash is made from your echo and doesn't break that rule. Now the interesting question is whether you can replace the unleash incarnation attack with a cantrip using bladesinger's ability. I think the gloomstalker ability also adds to the haste attack, but that one's shakier to me. That's a pretty great turn 1!

----------


## Amechra

I don't think either the Gloomstalker ability or Unleash Incarnation get past the "only one weapon attack" limit on Haste, though  both features make you make additional attacks as part of an Attack action, after all.

Which is also why the answer to "can my Bladesinger/Echo Knight replace their Unleash Incarnation attack with a cantrip?" is "yes, but it's irrelevant"  it's an attack you're making as part of the Attack action, and the Bladesinger lets you replace one (and only one) of the attacks you make during your attack action with a cantrip.

----------


## Mr. Wonderful

> Summoning 32 Magical Wolves sounds like a build that is both eclectic *and* effective, to me! Maybe not in the context of "most attacks from one character" but it certainly has a place in this thread


Effective, eclectic and boring to everyone else at the table.

And don't get me started for trying this in Fantasy Grounds.

----------


## Chaos Jackal

> The highest number of attack rolls I've been able to come up with is a Sorcerer 17/Fighter 2/Warlock 1. _Scorching Ray_ fires [spell level + 1] rays, which each have their own attack roll. If you cast a 9th level _Scorching Ray_ with your main action, an 8th level _Scorching Ray_ with your surged action, and quicken _Eldritch Blast_ as a bonus action, you're making 23 attack rolls.


Just for this part, because there's no issue with the alternatives you offered:
Casting a spell with your bonus action (and cantrips are spells, obviously) locks you out of using any spell as your action for that turn other than a cantrip. Action Surge gives you an additional action but not an additional turn, so the additional action granted from it should also be affected. So if you quicken an _eldritch blast_ you won't be able to cast _scorching ray_ at all.

----------


## RogueJK

> Just for this part, because there's no issue with the alternatives you offered:
> Casting a spell with your bonus action (and cantrips are spells, obviously) locks you out of using any spell as your action for that turn other than a cantrip. Action Surge gives you an additional action but not an additional turn, so the additional action granted from it should also be affected. So if you quicken an _eldritch blast_ you won't be able to cast _scorching ray_ at all.


Correct.  The section on Bonus Action Spells states (bold emphasis mine):

_"A spell cast with a Bonus Action is especially swift. You must use a Bonus Action on Your Turn to cast the spell, provided that you havent already taken a Bonus Action this turn. You cant cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a Casting Time of 1 action."_

Action Surge gives you an additional Action, but it's part of the same *turn*.


You could, however, Quicken Scorching Ray to cast it as a Bonus Action, then use your Action to cast Eldritch Blast, and then Action Surge to use your additional Action to cast Eldritch Blast again.

----------


## Wraith

> Effective, eclectic and boring to everyone else at the table.
> 
> And don't get me started for trying this in Fantasy Grounds.


Janky as they are sometimes, I'm a fan of the Mob combat rules. It sucks if your Druid is a micro-manager who wants to dictate what each individual wolf is doing every turn, but for the comfort and sanity of everyone else at the table I think as a DM I'd feel justified in saying "tough luck, the Pack is a single 30ft x 30ft entity, treat it appropriately" and then just roll average damage instead of 32 individual To Hit rolls.

----------


## Oramac

I'm coming in waaaay late to this, but I gotta say I love this whole thread. I'm totally going to play the Jorasco Physician at some point. 

Also, might I suggest adding the Tempest Sorcerer Tank? I've personally played it from 1-20 and it plays every bit as well as anything else. The only real disadvantage it has is if you fight something with lightning/thunder immunity. Even then, there are alternatives.

----------


## RogueJK

> I'm coming in waaaay late to this, but I gotta say I love this whole thread. I'm totally going to play the Jorasco Physician at some point. 
> 
> Also, might I suggest adding the Tempest Sorcerer Tank? I've personally played it from 1-20 and it plays every bit as well as anything else. The only real disadvantage it has is if you fight something with lightning/thunder immunity. Even then, there are alternatives.


There's already the "The God of Lightning" build added to this thread, which is a Tempest Cleric 2/Storm Sorcerer 18 with Heavy Armor.  https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=300  Consider what you could do to make your Tempest Sorcerer Tank stand out significantly from that one.  


In addition, you'd probably want to post an updated build anyway, taking into account more recent options.  The Tempest Sorcerer Tank build to which you linked is from 2016, and a number of things have changed in the past 5 years.  (Even that "God of Lighting" build is pre-Tashas.)

For example, the newer Transmuted Spell metamagic is pretty much a given on this type of character nowadays.  (Maximized Shatter is nice, but Maximized Thunderball/Cone of Thunder/etc. is even nicer...)

And with Tasha's swappable ability scores, it opens up some additional racial options besides just Half Elf or Aasimar, such as a Mountain Dwarf going +2 CON/CHA and using Heavy Armor with no penalty despite not having 15 STR.

Plus, consider whether Blue/Bronze Draconic Sorcerer is potentially a better option than Storm Sorcerer for this concept, since the extra HP would help you with the "tank" aspect, and you can now Transmute other elemental damage spells into Lightning to get the bonus damage.  Especially if you're already going to be taking the Elemental Adept: Lightning feat anyway.

----------


## Withershins

Indeed, some of these amazing builds are in need of a little update.

----------


## Oramac

> There's already the "The God of Lightning" 
> 
> snip


Good call. I admit I only skimmed through all the options and missed that one. And yes, the build definitely needs an update. Thanks for the info!

----------


## ftafp

*The Flame Warden (AKA the Fire Marshal 2.0)*
*Race:* Custom Lineage, Small
*Class:* Wildfire 3/Abjurer 17
*Progression:* Wizard 1, Wildfire 1-2, Abjurer 2-3, Wildfire 3, Abjurer 4-17
*Stats:* 8 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 17 int, 13 wis, 10 cha
*ASI:* Resilient (+1 con)@0, Fey Touched (Gift of Alacrity, +1 int)@7, +2 [email protected], Gift of the Metallic [email protected], [email protected]
*Spells of Note:* Shield, Unseen Servant, Aid, Rope Trick, Magic Mouth, Counterspell, Animate Dead, Summon Greater Demon, Creation

An upgraded version of The Fire Marshal, this build was made for one purpose and one purpose only: to make your party so many different types of unhittable that your dm will throw in the towel. This won't be a full write-up because wizard has a lot of room for customizability. That said, I'll give the broad strokes. Let me show you how it works

*Tier 1:*
We start off tier 1 as a wizard, which is rarely fun at first level but we do get the classics. The first major spell in our book is Unseen Servant, which being a ritual we should have multiples of up at all times. Unseen servants have a number of uses such as keeping caltrops under foot or aiming bullseye lanterns, but the key use I want to bring up is defensive. Namely, Unseen Servants can hold up cover for you and your allies. Mind you with 2 str they're not going to be carrying fortifications, but even thin curtains can keep a creature from targeting you with a spell and give disadvantage on attack rolls by hiding you from sight. Given that they can supposedly do anything an ordinary human can, unseen servants could potentially ready actions to throw themselves in front of attackers who pursue you melee. Being invisible objects it's really hard to damage them with spells or aoes. At 2 we switch into druid which may seem a strange choice but bear with me. 1 level will give you proficiency in medium armor and shields. Seeing as the Sage Advice Compendium (which IS official) effectively removed the druid restriction on metal armor, there's nothing keeping you from half plate, but if your DM gives you a problem point out that Spiked Armor from the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide is canonically made of leather. Druid 2 is where things get interesting. We grab the Circle of Wildfire which gives us a Wildfire Spirit. Easily the best pet in the game, the Wildfire Spirit has Fiery Teleport as an at-will ability, and it can take allies with it to get them out of danger. They can ready this action, triggering it when they or the allies they're protecting are attacked to sidestep the effect every turn, but did you know that they can also be a flying mount? You read that right, and no, you don't need to be tiny (technically you don't even need to be small). All you need to do is order your spirit to grapple you and pull you into the air. Now, being able to drag and lift 150 lbs your spirit could easily lift you as a small creature, but according to Crawford on multiple tweets, moving a grappled creature does not depend on your carrying capacity or their weight, only the size categories of the creatures involved.  You might want to go prone before it grapples you though, because with melee attacks out of the question, all ranged attacks against you will be at disadvantage.

*Tier 2:*
At 5 we get our 2nd level wizard spells, which are better than the 2nd level spells of just about any class. One I want to call out for the moment is Rope Trick, which can be easily used as a bunker for you and your allies in the middle of combat. Just remember not to use a rope longer than 15 feet because you'll be climbing at half speed, and to roll said rope up to keep enemies out. At 6 we get our 2nd level Druid spells, and with them Aid. Aid will let you increase your spirit's hp, so enemies don't focus fire on it, then at 8 we get our 3rd level spells including Counterspell and Animate Dead. Animate Dead and Unseen Servant perform similar functions, but while Unseen Servants can only hamper ranged attacks, Zombies and Skeletons can move mantlets around to block attacks entirely, even doing so reactively by reading their interact with an item action. They also last for a while. By the way, fun new trick about Animate Dead: while they might not be able to follow complex commands, you can tell them to follow the instructions given by a magic mouth earpiece, allowing them to operate autonomously on a complex program. At 9 you get the ability to throw your arcane ward from Abjurer which gives extra defensive props, and then 10 is where things start getting interesting. Remember that thing we did with the wildfire spirit? Now we can double up. Simply use Summon Greater Demon to summon a dybbuk which also gets at will dimensions door and flight. It requires no action to command, all you have to worry about is it going berserk which is fine because it's not an especially dangerous enemy

*Tier 3:*
We're almost out of gimmicks here, but when we get to 12 I think its worth mentioning that since we have some zombies up and some 6th level slots with no spells, Creation is a good pick. Just summon a cannon from the dmg. Those things may have low accuracy but 8d10 damage packs a whollop. At 13 we get a bonus to our Counterspell rolls, which is awesome. Last at 15 we finally get to a new addition from Fizban's Treasury of Dragons: Gift of the Metallic Dragon. What this feat does is basically just give you a free casting of shield PB times per day that you can cast on an ally instead of yourself. I think that's pretty neat

----------


## carrdrivesyou

*GHOST IN THE DARKNESS*

Race: Any that grants a feat (Take Eldritch Adept for Devils' Sight)
Class: Fighter 3 (Echo Knight) - Monk 6 (Way of Shadow)

Ability Scores (27 Point Buy): 8, 16, 14, 10, 16, 8

Suggested Feats: Sentinel (To keep people locked down), Telekinetic/Telepathic for flavor/RP

Suggested Skills: Perception and Stealth

A fairly straightforward build!  Use your action to cast Darkness (using Ki) on your spear.  Then use your bonus action to manifest your Echo.  Approach the enemy and blot out their lights.  They are now in darkness that you can see through but they can't. Oh, and there's two of you in there.

With Flurry of Blows, your darkness sphere becomes a veritable Bagel of Beatings.

Add Unleash Incarnation to make it a Donut of Death.

Throw in Action Surge, and you now have the Not So Cheery-O.

Make some of those attacks into Stunning Strikes and that darkness becomes a Life-Saver of Life-Ending.

In short, anyone who enters your reach joins the Fruit Loop of Free Loot.

If they happen to flee from you, you can always send your Echo to chase them, looking all the while as a ghost from the shadows, teleport to swap places with them, move yourself, then continue with your shadowy slaughter.

----------


## Sorinth

Here's a build for when you want to kite enemies in confined spaces.

Race: V. Human
Class: Monk: Open Hand

Take Slasher at 1st level which as half-feat essentially gives you +2 Dex, +1 Wis, so with standard array/point buy you start with 16s in both. Beyond that have Con be odd because at level 4 we are taking Crusher and evening it out. After that use your ASIs pump dex/wis.

You'll want to wield a slashing weapon, Handaxe is probably best to start with. In combat it's pretty straightforward, attack with your slashing weapon and impose that -10ft movement speed, then switch to unarmed strikes and push them back 5ft with Crusher and finish with a Flurry of blows and either knock them prone or push them back another 15ft. Move back 5ft or so so that you are out of range.

This combos best in a party that has caster(s) that like area of effect spells like Web, Spike Growth, Wall of Fire, etc... For fights against one big melee enemy it might even be worth them using Ray of Frost and saving their spell slots as -20ft speed can be pretty devastating.

Similar builds can be done with Battlemaster Fighter or Swarmkeeper Ranger and you can multiclass between any of them since their push back effects stack with each other. I prefer Monk because the extra mobility.

----------


## Oramac

> First, theres your Familiar, who can deliver potions without using their Action, swiftly flying to wherever they need to be and administering the potion to an ally (per the DMG rules for doing so).


EDIT: in regards to The Jorasco Physician

Quick question on this part. I've looked through the DMG and don't see anywhere it says anything about delivering a potion without using an action. Surely I'm just missing it somewhere. Can you point it out please? 

Thanks!

----------


## Quietus

> EDIT: in regards to The Jorasco Physician
> 
> Quick question on this part. I've looked through the DMG and don't see anywhere it says anything about delivering a potion without using an action. Surely I'm just missing it somewhere. Can you point it out please? 
> 
> Thanks!


Have your familiar deliver it.  Technically still cost an action, just not yours.

----------


## Oramac

> Have your familiar deliver it.  Technically still cost an action, just not yours.


That's what I thought. Just the description sounds like it doesn't take the familiar's action either. Regardless, it's still a damn nice thing to have.

----------


## LudicSavant

> That's what I thought. Just the description sounds like it doesn't take the familiar's action either. Regardless, it's still a damn nice thing to have.


Quietus has the right of it; it is intended to say "without using _your_ action" rather than "their."  Edited it to be clear.

----------


## ftafp

*The Wild, Wild Ride*

*Race:* Yuan-Ti
*Class:* Peace Cleric 1, Wild Mage X
*Progression:* Wild Mage 1, Peace Cleric 1, Wild Mage 2-19
*Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis, 16 Cha
*ASI:* Mounted [email protected], +2 [email protected], +2 [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
*Spells of Note:* Booming Blade, Absorb Elements, Animal Friendship, Bless, Counterspell, Polymorph
*Equipment:* mount, dagger

Quick build today. I'm just going to get into the meat

 This build uses a mount to take advantage of wild magic's hazards. Due to the number of surges with aoe effects a fast mount will let you run into melee, possibly explode, and then duck back out, ensuring its enemies you hit, not friends. In addition, the mount is there to evacuate you in case you go down or get turned into a potted plant, and while you can't move towards the nearest creature you're frightened of, your mount can still carry you Yuan Ti and Peace Cleric are there to ensure you and your mount have the best saves possible for your own spells, as you will rarely be able to rely on Tides of Chaos for self-inflicted injuries Absorb Elements and Counterspell are there to intercept your own self-inflicted spells. They even work if you lose your ability to speak from wild magic Booming Blade and a dagger likewise are selected because they're your best combat options besides dodging in case you lose your ability to speak. Your mount being able to disengage with its own action also ensures melee enemies will have to move Yuan-Ti gets Suggestion and Animal Friendship, both of which are useful for potentially recruiting monsters as allies or steeds (Just make sure you don't ). Your at-will Animal Friendship only works on snakes, but you can use Polymorph to turn any creature into a snake to charm it, then turn it back. RAW charming a creature isn't mind control like most DMs treat it, but the fact that so many DMs DO treat it that way means that this is at the very least useful. Note that you won't want to use wild magic near a creature you have under an enchantment because a violent surge can and will break it.

----------


## Khrysaes

No Image

The Faece

This is more of a general idea than a build

I wanted to add something while it was in my head, and I know it is not complete.

The Fey Ranger level 3 feature can grant +wisdom to charisma based skills, notably this is a bonus, not a replacement, so its proficiency + wis + cha.

Since insight, the empathy skill, Is also wisdom based these pair well.

So

Mark of Sentinel Human, can get a +1d4 for perception and insight, both good skills
Grants Counterspell to the spell list.
+2 wis, +1 attribute of choice. Good.

Classes:
Fey Wanderer Ranger 3: you don't really need more than that unless you want it
College of Eloquence Bard 3: Allows you to treat all rolls on persuasion and deception checks of 9 and below as 10.
Investigator Rogue 3: Allows you to treat insight checks to tell if someone is lying of 7 and lower as 8. 

You can cast Charm Person for advantage on charisma checks.

...
I give up. 

I am going to bed. I am sure there are more synergies between these.

----------


## Amechra

You also have the Samurai, whose 7th-level feature lets you add your Wisdom to your Persuasion checks.

So yeah, something like a Fey Wanderer 4/Samurai 12/Eloquence Bard 4 (in whatever order seems best) who maxed all relevant stats _and_ took expertise in Persuasion would have a mighty +27 to their roll.

...

Honestly, though, the Fey Wanderer is a _glorious_ chance to make a very Wisdom SAD Ranger  you don't need Charisma to be the group's face, you can pick up Druidic Warrior as your Fighting Style and stick to Wisdom in melee... hmm...

What do you think the best way to multiclass a Fey Wanderer Ranger with an Astral Self Monk would be?

----------


## CrowOfJudgement

> So yeah, something like a Fey Wanderer 4/Samurai 12/Eloquence Bard 4 (in whatever order seems best) who maxed all relevant stats _and_ took expertise in Persuasion would have a mighty +27 to their roll.


...I think we can get this higher.

Let's call this guy *The Master of Persuasion.*

Race: Mark of Hospitality Halfling. Relevant bits here are the +1 to charisma, obviously, and Ever Hospitable, meaning we get to add a d4 to our persuasion.

Stats (Point Buy): 13 Str, 14 Dex, 10 Con, 8 Int, 15 Wis, 15 Cha. Might seem a bit weird, but I promise there's a reason.

Level Breakdown: Eloquence Bard 4/Samurai Fighter 8/Fey Wanderer Ranger 4/Redemption Paladin 4

Choose Druidic Warrior fighting style for Ranger, and pick Guidance as your cantrip. An important spell to get your hands on is enhance ability, which will obviously be for charisma primarily. With Fighter, snag the Superior Technique Fighting Style, and the technique you want is Commanding Presence. And take your bardic Expertise in Persuasion and whatever other skill you want (I'd personally recommend Deception or Insight, but it's really whatever you want)

Speaking of said ASI's, you want to focus on getting your charisma and Wisdom to 20 as quickly as possible.

Now, with all that out of the way, the big numbers and the fun part of this build.

The relevant features that go into this guys are: Ever Hospitable (d4 to persuasion), Eloquence Bard's Silver Tongue (Can't roll below 10 on a persuasion check), Samurai's Elegant Courtier (+ wisdom modifier to persuasion), Fey Wanderer's Otherworldly Glamour (Another + wisdom modifier to any charisma check), Redemption Paladin's Emissary of Peace (+5 to Persuasion for 10 minutes), and Commanding Presence (+ a d6 to performance, intimidation, or persuasion). And your expertise in Persuasion. I'm sure you smart individuals can see where I'm going with this.

At level twenty, the final gimmick comes together. Pick a random powerful individual. Pop Emissary of Peace, cast Guidance, and use your Commanding Presence. Silver Tongue makes your Persuasion Roll a minimum of 10. Your base modifier will be a +27, as Amechra said. Here's where we get better. You add another 5 from Emissary of Peace, so +32. Add your Guidance d4, your Ever Hospitable d4, and your Commanding Presence d6. 

Minimum: 10 + 32 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 45

Maximum with a roll at/under 10: 10 + 32 + 4 + 4 + 6 = 56

Max with a Nat 20 for ****s and giggles: 20 + 32 + 4 + 4 + 6 = 66

Whoever you're trying to persuade, whatever you're trying to convince them of, it is absolutely guaranteed to succeed.  You are more persuasive than any god. You could convince the gods to worship you instead. Your absolute _minimum_ is enough to exceed the DC of what is meant to be impossible, 30. Your max is twice that. This is so absurd that I can't even visualize what that would look like in-game aside from the world itself warping and changing to suit your whims. Want to deceive rather than persuade? You might not be quite as good at it, after all your minimum roll would be a measly _32_ (assuming you take Deception expertise). 

_But wait, there's more!_

Not much more though. Basically, you're not a one trick gimmick pony. Outside of this strategy, you're a 9th level caster. You've got Lay on Hands, Bardic Inspiration, and since this whole shtick doesn't require any spell slots you don't have to worry about hoarding them for that persuasion roll, meaning you can spend them on supporting allies and blasting enemies. And magic aside, you've got the necessary features to ensure you're an absolute beast in combat. 

Alright. I'd say that's about as far as we can take that.

----------


## Khrysaes

> ...I think we can get this higher.
> 
> Let's call this guy *The Master of Persuasion.*
> 
> Race: Mark of Hospitality Halfling. Relevant bits here are the +1 to charisma, obviously, and Ever Hospitable, meaning we get to add a d4 to our persuasion.
> 
> Stats (Point Buy): 13 Str, 14 Dex, 10 Con, 8 Int, 15 Wis, 15 Cha. Might seem a bit weird, but I promise there's a reason.
> 
> Level Breakdown: Eloquence Bard 4/Samurai Fighter 8/Fey Wanderer Ranger 4/Redemption Paladin 4
> ...


You can boost it 1d4 more with a 1st level peace cleric, either yourself, or a party member. You do lose an ASI for it though.

----------


## RogueJK

> What do you think the best way to multiclass a Fey Wanderer Ranger with an Astral Self Monk would be?


6 levels of Astral Self Monk (or 8 if you need the ASI sooner rather than later), then 3 levels of Fey Wanderer, then back to Monk.




> Honestly, though, the Fey Wanderer is a glorious chance to make a very Wisdom SAD Ranger  you don't need Charisma to be the group's face, you can pick up Druidic Warrior as your Fighting Style and stick to Wisdom in melee... hmm...


You can do similar with a WIS-SAD Samurai Fighter, picking up the Wood Elf Magic or Magic Initiate Druid feat for Shillelagh for WIS-based melee, and getting +WIS to Persuasion checks.

Call it the *Wise Warrior*:

Wood Elf Samurai Fighter 20, using medium armor, a staff, and a shield.
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 15+1
INT 8
WIS 15+2
CHA 10
Feats: Wood Elf Magic, Elven Accuracy (+1 WIS), Polearm Master, Crusher (+1 CON), Fey Touched (+1 WIS, Hunter's Mark), +1 WIS/CON, Lucky
Fighter Skills: Insight, Acrobatics
Samurai Skill: Persuasion
Background Skills: Survival and Stealth
Racial Skill: Perception
Dueling Fighting Style

or

Variant Human Samurai Fighter 20, using medium armor, a staff, and a shield.
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 15+1
INT 8
WIS 15+1
CHA 10
Feats: Magic Initiate Druid (Shillelagh, Produce Flame, Absorb Elements), Polearm Master, +2 WIS, Sentinel, Crusher (+1 CON), Fey Touched (+1 WIS, Hunter's Mark), +1 WIS/CON, Lucky
Fighter Skills: Insight, Acrobatics
Samurai Skill: Persuasion
Background Skills: Survival and Stealth
Racial Skill: Perception
Dueling Fighting Style

Not super optimized, but could be a fun and well-rounded character to play, being useful both in and out of combat (unlike a lot of Fighters out there), and being quite a change from what you usually see in most Fighter builds.

----------


## Khrysaes

> 6 levels of Astral Self Monk (or 8 if you need the ASI sooner rather than later), then 3 levels of Fey Wanderer, then back to Monk.
> 
> 
> 
> You can do similar with a WIS-SAD Samurai Fighter, picking up the Wood Elf Magic or Magic Initiate Druid feat for Shillelagh for WIS-based melee, and getting +WIS to Persuasion checks.
> 
> Call it the *Wise Warrior*:
> 
> Wood Elf Samurai Fighter 20, using medium armor, a staff, and a shield.
> ...


I think the Battlemaster fighter in LudicSavant's original post is a wood elf.
It could be possible to just adapt that with Samurai. You could also multiclass a Samurai/Ranger and get double wis to persuasion with a bit more spells. You lose one attack. A 12 Fighter/4 monk/4 ranger, could work too if one wanted some other wis based features, but I don't like monk enough to do that.

Here is that feat list:
Elven Accuracy (18 dex)
20 Dex
Wood Elf Magic (Guidance as your cantrip)
Alert
Ritual Caster (Wizard)
Shield Master
Resilient (Wisdom) (16 Wis)


EDIT:

on another note, has anyone attempted to update any of the old builds with new feats/races/subclasses?

----------


## Khrysaes

> I think the Battlemaster fighter in LudicSavant's original post is a wood elf.
> It could be possible to just adapt that with Samurai. You could also multiclass a Samurai/Ranger and get double wis to persuasion with a bit more spells. You lose one attack.


Here is what I made

Wood Elf
Tasha's customizing ability scores for +2 wis +1 dex or con.
Point buy
Starting Scores: str 8, dex 14, con 14, int 13, wis 17, cha 8
16 Samurai Fighter, 4 Fey Wanderer Ranger
Fighter proficiencies: Acrobatics & Insight
Level progression -> at least samurai 3 -> 4 ranger ->Fighter for rest. 
NOTE: Samurai Proficiency: Persuasion. 
NOTE: Can take any amount of fighter first, I recommend 6
NOTE: You get more benefit from the samurai class at level 7 by taking Resilient WIS at level 4 or 6, BUT its not required if you want a different feat.
Note: Get Shillelagh through the Ranger Fighting Style
Feats:
Elven Accuracy +1 Wis
Fey Touched +1 Wis
Crusher +1 Con
Polearm Master
Sentinel
Feat
Feat

Alternative Race Variant Human OR Custom Lineage
Elven Accuracy -> +x Wisdom or some other feat? Observant?
Extra Feat: Feat


Last Two Feats?:
Ritual Caster (wizard)
Resilient Wisdom
Shield master
Magic Initiate
Wood Elf Magic
Lucky
Telekinetic (Wisdom)
Telepathic (Wisdom)
Others?

----------


## Citadel97501

Hello all, I haven't really went through the build idea yet but I was thinking there is a new non-magic blaster available.  

1) Breath Blaster...
Basically you go all in on the breath weapon changes & options from the new book.  I was thinking that taking a 3 level dip of the Dragon monk, on a Metallic Dragon born would be a lot of fun?  Your base breath weapon is better but the monk ones aren't horrible either.  At level 3, your getting 4 breath weapons per day + any you buy back with the extra ki points, at level 5 you could be running 6 all with good or at least tolerable DC's.  Eventually your going to be getting the other breath weapon option as well?

2) Stone Spitting Drake: Just as ridiculous...
Druid Cantrip in place of your fighting style so you can cast Magic Stone to give your baby dragon something to spit at people.  All in all this is not as powerful as the melee dragon pet could be but it is a weird option that makes me smile.  Unfortunately your going to be losing the 1st round, and every 3 more rounds recasting Magic Stone, as you need to spend a bonus action to make him spit out a rock.  

3) Elemental bow attacks?
The Drake can use a reaction to add 1d6 to a weapon attack someone else makes, so you are getting an free equivalent to hunter's mark every turn with a bow or other weapon attack.  Unfortunately this doesn't work with the Magic Stones from earlier which would have been very handy (Magic Stone is a spell attack...)

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## Sherlockpwns

> Hello all, I haven't really went through the build idea yet but I was thinking there is a new non-magic blaster available.  
> 
> 1) Breath Blaster...
> Basically you go all in on the breath weapon changes & options from the new book.  I was thinking that taking a 3 level dip of the Dragon monk, on a Metallic Dragon born would be a lot of fun?  Your base breath weapon is better but the monk ones aren't horrible either.  At level 3, your getting 4 breath weapons per day + any you buy back with the extra ki points, at level 5 you could be running 6 all with good or at least tolerable DC's.  Eventually your going to be getting the other breath weapon option as well?


Depending on your definition of magic you could dip artificer 3 for artillerist flamethrower. This would be SUPER MAD, but with good rolled stats or just some sacrifices here or there you get an aoe bonus action. Its not optimal in any way but if you really wanted to min/max close range aoe cones that arent spells this seems likely the best bet. 

Of course the actual best bet is probably to just get dragons breath and go wild still, but it is interesting to be non-spell aoe blasting.

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## Khrysaes

> Depending on your definition of magic you could dip artificer 3 for artillerist flamethrower. This would be SUPER MAD, but with good rolled stats or just some sacrifices here or there you get an aoe bonus action. Its not optimal in any way but if you really wanted to min/max close range aoe cones that arent spells this seems likely the best bet. 
> 
> Of course the actual best bet is probably to just get dragons breath and go wild still, but it is interesting to be non-spell aoe blasting.


There is also the dragon breath spell. 
So draconic sorcerer levels maybe?

Wizard would work better with artificer.

DRUID, would work better with Monk, also they get the draconic form spell and the summon draconic spirit right? So that could be more fitting.

I don't know about drakewarden, but that would/could also fit.

Warlocks of course can get the pseudodragon familiar.

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## Citadel97501

2 things I wanted to bring up...

Gift of the Metallic Dragon
-Hello all, I was wondering how you guys feel about this feat?  I am looking at it approvingly as it seems a solid option for a lot of classes, especially stuff like Warlock, non-Divine Soul sorcerers, and the ever incredible Blade Singer Wizard?  Adding some healing options and even armor class buffs that don't take spell slots seems damn good to me.  

I was also wondering how you all feel about a Blade-Singer Dragon Born?  It is interesting to me, that at level 6 you could use a breath weapon, and a cantrip.  Hell, something ridiculous is you could technically do 3 breath weapons & 2 cantrips a turn with a fighter 2 /wizard 6 who has haste cast on them.  You might be wanting a long rest after but the monsters are likely dead.  

At level 6 (Bladesinger 6)
Lets say 3 targets in the AOE: So with a powerful alpha turn that is 6d10x2 breath weapon damage, 4d6x2 from acid splash.  This is an average of 45 BW damage, 10 acid splash, so 55 damage.  This was assuming 1 failed save and 1 passed for each target.

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## Amechra

Something that I recently noticed is that the Kensei and Thrown Weapon Fighting are a match made in heaven. You have a melee weapon to hand when you need it for Agile Parry and the +2 to damage from the Style is there because throwing weapons tend to have really low damage... unless, you know, you're a Monk, and you're replacing that die with a bigger one. On top of that, Kensei Shot works with thrown weapons, so you still have decent damage even on turns where you don't want to spend ki.

I haven't properly crunched the numbers yet, because Focused Aim and Unerring Accuracy make calculating DPR pretty gnarly. But my rough numbers indicate that the damage you end up with is _surprisingly_ good.

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## FluffyBeholder

A Barfairyan named Nuggles. That is all.

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## ftafp

Finally posting some builds I've held off on for a while


*The Persephonelock*

*Race:* Halfling, Mark of Hospitality
*Class:* Life Cleric 1, Undead Warlock 19
*Progression:* Life Cleric 1, Undead Warlock 1-19
*Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, 13 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis, 17 Cha
*ASI:* Fey Touched (Gift of Alacrity, +1 Cha)@5, Resilient (+1 Con)@9, +2 [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
*Pact Boon:* Pact of the Tome
*Invocations:* Book of Ancient Secrets
*Spells of Note:* Goodberry, Gift of Alacrity, Aid, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Phantom Steed, Death, Ward

Since I'm posting a few builds here, I'm going to give an expedited explanation instead of the level-by-level breakdown. This is a support-heavy warlock build that specializes in early morning preparations. As an adventurer, you're going to lead an active life, but most parties won't be adventuring for more than 8 hours a day, and with long rests only lasting 8 hours that leaves you with 8 hours you can spend casting and intermittently short resting to regain spell slots. The spells listed in the spells of note section are ideal options for this.
Goodberry lasts 24 hours, and Disciple of Life will not only multiply its effectiveness but allow it to benefit from upcasting, which as a warlock you are going to be doing almost exclusivelyGift of Alacrity doesn't need much justification. Cast this on the whole party at the start of every dayAid only needs one casting, and it benefits heavily with your warlock upcastingLeomund's Tiny Hut can be ritual cast thanks to Book of Ancient Secrets, and it can keep your party safe from encounters while you're prepping.Phantom Steed can also be ritual casted. You should always try to have a few of these active for the whole party as the speed boost combined with free disengage is phenomenalAid only needs one casting, and it benefits heavily with your warlock upcastingDeath Ward is already a good spell, but not many people realize that because it's a one-and-done effect, Death Ward is one of the few buff spells that can be stacked. This is because RAW while you can have the same spell on you multiple times you can only benefit from one at a time, thus when you drop to 0 only one death ward activates and ends while the rest keep going


*The Tactical Siege Dwarf*

*Race:* Mountain Dwarf
*Class:* Dao Warlock 2, Clockwork Soul 18
*Progression:* Clockwork Soul 1, Dao Warlock 1-2, Clockwork Soul 2-18
*Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis, 17 Cha
*ASI:* Fey Touched(+1 Cha)@6, +2 [email protected], [email protected], Crusher (+1 Con)@18
*Invocations:* Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast
*Background:* Custom (Feature from Failed Merchant: Supply Chain)
*Tool Proficiencies:* Alchemists supplies, Thieve's Tools, Tinker's Tools, Weaver's Tools, 
*Spells of Note:* Eldritch Blast, Magic Stone, Catapult, Distort Value, Tiny Servant, Fabricate, Wall of Stone

This is a build designed to take blasting to the next level. Obviously, spells like fireball and synaptic static should be priority picks on top of the listed spells, but you do you.
Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast is a standard combo, but on a Dao Warlock with Crusher this spell can get intense. According to Crawford, crusher does not forbid vertical forced movement, and since diagonal movement doesn't cost extra, Repelling Blast can easily launch an enemy high enough in the air to take fall damage if cast from 10 feet awayCatapult is a fantastic and versatile spell. Many people know you can catapult vials of acid or alchemist's fire for extra damage, but nothing says you can't tie multiple vials together and catapult them all at once. As a Daolock, your Genie's Vessel is also catapultable, though it breaks open on impact. That's not a bad thing however, as you can use the time to set up all manner of hazards inside it that will surround targets when broken open. Ball Bearings and Caltrops are good at low levels, and Thieve's Tools will let you create booby traps inside during your short rest. Mason's tools won't do much for crafting, but they double the damage you do to structures, so this can destroy buildings as wellTiny Servant + Magic Stone is a frequent favorite combo of mine. Just give them standing orders to fire the stones you touch at hostile creatures and you've 3 free attacks as a bonus action. For the sake of safety, give them some kind of cover like a chest or bag of holding to hide inFabricate is a great spell, but for you this is mandatory. First, you need it to make money. Weaver's tools were selected because it's relatively cost-efficient to make money with it. Simply buy a metric crap-ton of flax (according to the crafting rules enough flax for 1 yard of linen is 2.5gp) and convert all of it to a folded up pile of linen up to 10x10x10' in size. As a trade good, linen can be used as an equal quantity of currency, doubling your investment. You can also make elaborate tapestries and use Distort Value to double their value. Either way, you might want to use the wholesalers you have contact with from your background to trade this for raw materials for alchemy. That stuff is expensive and you're going to go through industrial quantities of alchemist's fire and acid. If your DM allows firearms, gunpowder kegs are something else you should get crafting. You can load up your vessel with barrels of it and blow them up in a spectacular chain reaction.Once you get Wall of Stone, all bets are off. Use it to build large structures like mazes, prisons, castles and so on within your vessel, but make sure to create them without a floor and a lot of empty space, as these walls can't appear in occupied spaces, only around them.

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## Khrysaes

So I just got Stryxhaven, and I must say, I think the Stryxhaven mascots would be very fun for a Shepard Druid, Conjuration Wizard, Giftlock, and Peace Cleric.

I was thinking a Quandrix Giftlock, as the Fractal Mascot can increase its size up to huge, and with investment of the chain master, can fly. 

Permanent Flying mount at level 4.

Any Shepard Druid build would be fun too with the boosts to the summons it can get.

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## ftafp

> So I just got Stryxhaven, and I must say, I think the Stryxhaven mascots would be very fun for a Shepard Druid, Conjuration Wizard, Giftlock, and Peace Cleric.
> 
> I was thinking a Quandrix Giftlock, as the Fractal Mascot can increase its size up to huge, and with investment of the chain master, can fly. 
> 
> Permanent Flying mount at level 4.
> 
> Any Shepard Druid build would be fun too with the boosts to the summons it can get.


I'm actually working on a build for a quandrix chainlock. the biggest problem I'm finding is, we're sort of running out of warlock builds to make. There's only so many ideas you can get out of one class, and warlock doesn't have a lot of open-ended abilities

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## Khrysaes

> I'm actually working on a build for a quandrix chainlock. the biggest problem I'm finding is, we're sort of running out of warlock builds to make. There's only so many ideas you can get out of one class, and warlock doesn't have a lot of open-ended abilities


Yeah, I actually realized that your thread, which I replied to, is all about the quandrix chainlock.


Essentially, If you multiclass its 3 warlock/x whatever. Or 4/x.

Essentially, pick your flavor of summoner,

Druid, Shepard, gets the ability at 6 that increases the HP by 2 per HD.

Wizard, Conjuration, Ability at 14 that gives Temp 30 Temp HP. I think I would rather have the Shepard Druid's spirit totem.

Artificer, Make items and equip the familiar. Amulet of health, which would increase the Familiar's CON to 19, and Belt of Giants Strength for 21 str are both at level 14.

So 14 Artificer/3 warlock/3 x is probably the best non full caster. I like this on artillerist because the eldritch cannons can provide Temp HP and/or increased AC.

Druid x/3 warlock may be best full caster.

And finally, Peace or Twilight cleric gonna peace and twilight cleric.

Essentially, just use Warlock 3 to modify the existing summoner builds.

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## ftafp

> Yeah, I actually realized that your thread, which I replied to, is all about the quandrix chainlock.
> 
> 
> Essentially, If you multiclass its 3 warlock/x whatever. Or 4/x.
> 
> Essentially, pick your flavor of summoner,
> 
> Druid, Shepard, gets the ability at 6 that increases the HP by 2 per HD.
> 
> ...


What bothers me is, 3 levels is already a pretty steep warlock investment, and considering you want to get your second ASI as fast as possible, there's a lot of pressure to go to warlock 4, at which point you might as well go to 5 for the 3rd level spells. Once you reach that point it becomes clear that you're looking at a primarily warlock build. Peace and Twilight dips can back that up, but peace and twilight are starting to become the next hexblade in terms of dip subclasses

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## Khrysaes

> What bothers me is, 3 levels is already a pretty steep warlock investment, and considering you want to get your second ASI as fast as possible, there's a lot of pressure to go to warlock 4, at which point you might as well go to 5 for the 3rd level spells. Once you reach that point it becomes clear that you're looking at a primarily warlock build. Peace and Twilight dips can back that up, but peace and twilight are starting to become the next hexblade in terms of dip subclasses


I know. The worst thing is that you need the feat for Strixhaven Mascot regardless of class. So 3 Warlock, which still has to take a chain pact, still needs to get that feat, even if they get the first feat from the Background.

Realistically, the Celestial Giftlock  build from LudicSavant is probably the best bet for a warlock to use the mascot, since no 1-2 level dips other than peace or twilight really impact a summoner.

At least with an artificer, particularly a artillerist, but really any, you will have all your core class features, and the warlock short rest spell slots mean they can be used to resummon your potions/cannons/steel defenders. If you want, you can also have a steel defender, familiar, and a homunculi

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## ftafp

*Gnormal Gnorman*

_What do you do when your creativity fades to gray? Learn to create in black and white_

*Race:* Custom Lineage Gnome (Small, Darkvision)
*Class:* Battle Master 20
*Stats:* 17 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha
*ASI:* Tavern Brawler(+1 Con)@0, [email protected], Crossbow [email protected], Crusher(+1 Str)@8, +2 [email protected], Resilient(+1 Wis)@14, [email protected], [email protected]
*Fighting Style:* Archery
*Maneuvers:* Menacing Attack, Precision Attack, Quick Toss, Pushing Attack, Ambush, Riposte, Bait And Switch, Parry, Maneuvering Strike
*Proficiencies:* Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception
*Equipment:* Hand Crossbow, Shield?, Nets, Darts, War Horse/Elephant, Plate Barding

I'll be honest, part of the reason I haven't been posting in this thread much recently is I've been in a creative slump. This build is sort of a screw-you to that problem: taking one of the most boring builds I can think of, a CBE/SS pure Battle Master with no spellcasting of any kind, and making it mechanically interesting against all odds. RAW the following build is a little sketchy, but it's the best I've been able to come up with

*Strategy:*
Hand Crossbow is your primary method of attack, namely, hitting enemies in the **** with it. Archery+SS+CBE will ensure you're doing as much damage as you would at range. You have the option of a shield or a free hand to grapple, but I recommend the free hand, as it also lets you climb which many players forget that any character can do, albeit at half speedDarts are your primary ranged weapon by virtue of the fact that they're the only ranged weapon that does damage and uses STRNets are a good control option. You can use Quick Toss to throw two in one turn. Sharpshooter also gives you a 15 foot range with themThe mount is a multi-purpose pet. Your opening move in combat is going to be jumping 5 feet over the enemy's head and coming down on them. This doesn't do damage and thus can't knock your mount prone, but the enemy still has to save or fall prone, and given the mount's size this is an AoE effect. Once you've landed, dismount freeing up the mount to attackBeing strength based means you can use the same trick with your movement to knock enemies pronePushing Attack and crusher are a potent battlefield control combo that can launch enemies into the air, causing falling damage and potentially proning multiple enemiesMenacing Attack is another option that lets you waste enemy turns if they lack ranged options. Frightened is also a nasty debuffTavern Brawler lets you grapple as a bonus action, which is perfect if you have a prone enemy. It also lets you use the Climb on a Bigger Creature option from the dungeon master's guide, which makes them unable to attack you unless they use their action to attempt to dislodge you

*EDIT:* This build is being reworked due to the fact that it kind of sucks

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## Citadel97501

Hello all, I was wondering if there is any build that mixes the idea of the Creation Bard, and the Wildfire Druid to have a power armor with a jetpack?  I was thinking you could also add in Artificer so it can really accomplish the midget Iron Man?  This would be something like the Fire Marshal build but takes advantage of the massive fun of animating tricks of a Creation Bard?

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## Hael

> Hello all, I was wondering if there is any build that mixes the idea of the Creation Bard, and the Wildfire Druid to have a power armor with a jetpack?  I was thinking you could also add in Artificer so it can really accomplish the midget Iron Man?  This would be something like the Fire Marshal build but takes advantage of the massive fun of animating tricks of a Creation Bard?


Right off the bat you're going to have an issue with druid and the armorer subclass, b/c druids don't play nice with armor.  Build wise, its a bit challenging b/c you need to max cha, max wis and max int so you will likely have to pick one or two and dump the others (so one class might be only buff spells).  I don't see many great synergies.  The armorer and the bard by themselves could *kinda* work.

----------


## ftafp

> Hello all, I was wondering if there is any build that mixes the idea of the Creation Bard, and the Wildfire Druid to have a power armor with a jetpack?  I was thinking you could also add in Artificer so it can really accomplish the midget Iron Man?  This would be something like the Fire Marshal build but takes advantage of the massive fun of animating tricks of a Creation Bard?


There isn't, but im kind of kicking myself for not thinking of it sooner. Wildfire 2/Creation X is a perfectly cromulent build given that the dancing item really doesn't need any ba investment and protects the wildfire spirit. I might make a build for this, but until then i recommend adapting The Wagoneer to replace the artificer levels with druid one

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## Amnestic

*Red Oni and Blue Oni*



A pair of builds around classic mythology and also the Oni monster. What that means is that we're hitting a few high notes: being BIG, using a BIG weapon, changing shape, and some spellcasting. Historically, oni are a type of demon (even though in 5e the creature is a giant) so we'll be going with Tiefling for our races. For the sake of our builds we'll be not using Tasha's ASI reassign rules, though you can optimise your stats more if you do so. 

Red Oni

Red Oni are typically associated with passion, wildness and defiance. While both colours of oni are big hitters, red oni are the more brawly smash types, and as such we'll be leaning into that with our build.

*Race*: Zariel Tiefling
*Ability Scores post-racials (27 point buy)*: 16 Str/14 Dex/14 Con/8 Int/8 Wis/14 Cha

*Weapon of Choice:* Oni are historically associated with a Kanabo, which we will represent with a nice chunky Maul.

*Level Progression:*
Levels 1-3: Fighter 1->3 (Rune Knight): This lets us be BIG, which is crucial to the build.
Levels 4-5: Warlock (Fiend) 1->2: Minor spellcasting. Killing people for temp HP is _sort of_ like oni regeneration. At 2nd level you'll take Mask of Many Faces as one of your invocations for at-will disguise self. Your other one probably wants to be spent on Devil's Sight, but it's not important to the build.
Levels 6-7: Fighter 4->5: ASI into strength, Extra attack.
Levels 8-10: Barbarian 1->3 (Zealot): Now you can RAGE like a real red oni and you get extra damage on one of your hits every turn. Hit harder! You're also much easier to bring back if you die.
Levels 11-16: Fighter 6->11: ASIs into Strength (20!) and Con, Extra Attack #3.
Level 17: Barbarian 4: We finally grab Great Weapon Master for hitting EVEN HARDER. We only go Barb 4 for our ASI because of its slightly higher hit dice vs. Fighter or Paladin.
Level 18-20: Paladin (Oath of Conquest) 1-3: Turn those spell slots into SMITES since we're raging. Your save DC on Conquering Presence (DC16) isn't much to write home about at level 20, so your channel divinity will be used more on Guided Strike or on refilling spell slots for more smites.

*Final stats:* 20/14/16/8/8/14. 
*Feats:* Great Weapon Master.
*Final level breakdown:* Rune Knight Fighter 11, Fiend Warlock 2, Zealot Barbarian 4, Conquest Paladin 3.

Dumb as a sack of hammers and your wis save is an absolutely crushing -1 by the end of the day, but thinking good is what Blue Onis are for. Speaking of...

Blue Oni

In contrast to their crimson himbo brothers, blue oni are often associated with big brains, snark, and control. They're, of course, the more magically inclined of the two, which is where we'll be leaning. That's not to say we won't also be hitting stuff, however.

*Race:*  Asmodeus Tiefling (Levistus is a fine alternative too)
*Ability Scores post-racials (27 point buy)*: 8 Strength/14 Dexterity/14 Constitution/16 Intelligence/12 Wisdom/10 Charisma

*Weapon of Choice:* Level 1-2 will be shield+cantrips. Once you hit level 3, you swap out for a maul just like your red brother.

*Level Progression:*
Levels 1-5: Artificer (Battlesmith) 1->5: Disguise Self as a spell. Int to attack+damage. Martial weapons proficiency for BIG hammer. ASI goes into Int. Extra Attack. Steel Defender is less 'Steel' and more 'small demonic spirit'. With our core spellcasting in place we then switch to...
Levels 6-9: Fighter (Rune Knight) 1->4: Again it's important that we know how to be BIG. ASI goes into maxing out our intelligence.
Levels 10-12: Artificer 6->8: Our stupid brother needs help with their wisdom save, and Flash of Genius is there to help. We also pick up Warcaster with our ASI to help out Concentration saves.
Levels 13-14: Wizard (War Magic) 1->2:  Arcane Deflection and Int to Initiative. Since you're a smashy boy instead of a spell slinger primarily, the spell limitation isn't crushing and gives you some additional defenses where needed.
Levels 15-19: Artificer 9->12: Spell Storing Item, make yourself some Gauntlets of Strength so you finally catch up to your brother's brawn. ASI into is Resilient: Wis to get you to 13 Wisdom which lets you multiclass into...
Level 20: Cleric (Knowledge) 1: Expertise x2 and some spellcasting, your brain remains huge!

*Final stats:* 19 (thanks to your gauntlets)/14/14/20/13/10. 
*Feats:* Warcaster, Resilient Wisdom
*Final Level Breakdown:* Battlesmith Artificer 12/Rune Knight Fighter 4/War Magic Wizard 2/Knowledge Cleric 1.

Not quite as brawny as your brother, but twice as smart, and you serve as a crucial assistance to his saving throws while also holding your own on the frontline alongside your 'steel' defender.

----------


## Citadel97501

> There isn't, but im kind of kicking myself for not thinking of it sooner. Wildfire 2/Creation X is a perfectly cromulent build given that the dancing item really doesn't need any ba investment and protects the wildfire spirit. I might make a build for this, but until then i recommend adapting The Wagoneer to replace the artificer levels with druid one


Do you have a link to the full wagoneer build, as I really haven't been able to find it?

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## ftafp

> Do you have a link to the full wagoneer build, as I really haven't been able to find it?


https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...postcount=1020

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## Dualight

Here is a build that seems a little under-optimised, but I think that it can be fun, assuming you play a campaign where you can specialise in long-range, mounted combat without crippling yourself. This build assumes that Xanathars Guide and Tashas Cauldron are allowed at your table, but those are all you need, and the options from Tashas arent integral to the build, just nice to have. 
Without further ado:
The Horse-Archer
Fighter(cavalier) 6/rogue(phantom) 14
Variant human(Mounted Combatant)

Focus dexterity, rest depends on your preferred fall-back strategy/variation on the build, although Wisdom is a good idea to get very good at Animal Handling

Start fighter, and rush cavalier 6. Starting Fighter means that you are a better archer out of the gate, and  better starting equipment.
Fighting Style: Archery, +2 to hit is nice at all levels. 
Cavalier at 3rd level for Born in the Saddle, so you have no problems if you somehow end up dismounted in the middle of combat.. The bonus proficiency and language are also nice to have. Unwavering Mark, while normally the centrepiece of a cavalier build, is of no consequence to you, as you should not be in melee, where you could apply the mark, if you have any say in it whatsoever. Of course, it is not detrimental to have, just incompatible with sniping from a distance.
You end the fighter progression at 6, as 7 is a dead level for a ranged build, and sticking with fighter for longer will not yield anything particularly interesting until 11 with the 2nd Extra Attack, for which you would have to suffer through cavalier 10, which also does nothing if you are not in melee. As such, moving out of fighter when you get the first bonus ASI seems like a good choice. 

The ASIs go to Sharpshooter(even without the -5/+10 attack this would be worth it) and Gunner/Crossbow Expert(Gunner has my preference, as you only really want this for the disadvantage removal, and Gunner still gives +1 dex, and using gunner would allow you to make yourself into a proper dragoon, which is also a fun image. If you go with guns, just keep in mind that firearms are loud,and you might end up needing to spend time getting you mount accustomed to the sound, if your DM likes to add verisimilitude)

Starting at 7th level, its rogue all the way, taking Sneak Attack, which applies to your longbow, and your horse might count as an enemy of your target, so you could be able to get Sneak Attack to punish those foolish enough to take a swing at your beloved mount. Expertise in Animal Handling and Perception makes you a phenomenal long-range scout, and being forced to dismount should be nearly impossible. 

At rogue 3 you take the Phantom, as that is the only rogue class to have no features at levels you can reach that require you to be close to the enemy/moving under your own power/attacking in melee to work properly. Wails from the Grave can trigger on a ranged attack, as well. Steady Aim only requires you to have not moved on your turn before the bonus action to take aim, and subsequently only prevents movement through reducing your speed to 0. Your mount can move as normal, without breaking your aim. As such, you, as a mounted archer, can use Steady Aim to translate your bonus action into guaranteed advantage on 1 attack roll, without the drawback of not being able to move. Your mount is the one doing the moving, anyway. Past here, Sneak Attack results in your damage output scaling steadily, and Evasion at character 13 will result in you and your mount being nearly impervious to AoE Dex saves like a fireball. The rest of the rogue features are not particularly interesting, but they do add to your utility outside combat and/or on foot. You end up with the same amount of ASIs as a full fighter, due to leaving fighter after getting the first bonus, and going deep enough into rogue to get their bonus ASI.

Variants: The reason this build goes with V-human is to get the full complement of desired feats up and running ASAP, and you gain enough ASIs that the slightly lower starting stats do not matter, especially with Archery keeping your to-hit bonus competitive with the melee combatants who pump their offence earlier. Likewise, the levels in rogue should keep your average damage from being low for long, especially with Sharpshooter.

I havent put that much thought into variants, as this write-up is an adaptation of a character I am still trying to find a campaign for, but a few variants do stand out in my mind. The first is (half-)elf, with Elven Accuracy, since Steady Aim means that you can guarantee yourself advantage 1/round, and darkvision is nice to have. A small creature(Custom Lineage could work, bu isn't necessary) could be viable, as well, if only because it would increase the number of possible mounts(including your medium party members, assuming they are willing to give you a ride), and allowing you to ply your trade indoors, if you choose a medium-sized mount.
Trading rogue for Ranger is also an option, with, an extra fighting style, archery-friendly spellcasting, and even an effective Expertise from the variant features in Tashas.

Taking a dip into paladin, if you have a paladin or bard in the part, could allow you to gain access to _find steed_ (DC 12 to cast  from a scroll at Pal 2)or _find greater steed_(DC 14) through spell scrolls, although you need decent charisma to pull it off, and at that point it might be worthwhile to just go for a paladin build instead. Of course, if you can talk you DM into granting you (the ability to make) a _spellwrought tattoo_ of one of those spells, you wont need the paladin levels.

If Tashas is one the table, try to see if your DM is willing to let you make your mount into a sidekick, so it becomes much harder to kill.
If Tashas is banned entirely, Arcane Trickster probably becomes the best option for a Rogue subclass, as its features do not rely on you being on foot or in situations where you will rarely be mounted, even if it doesnt play all that nicely with staying at a distance.
A funny option, especially if Sidekicks are allowed, is to go with a Small creature, and to take the Noble(knight variant) backgrounds  feature Retainers, and have your squire be a medium noble, who acts as your mount on the battlefield. Probably best to only bring this one to a silly game, as it will probably lead to a lot of weird looks at a remotely serious table.

I am certain that this build has a lot of flaws, since i am still fairly new to optimising like this, but I do think it could be a blast to play in the right campaign, and all it needs to start coming online is a mount, which some DMs might be willing to grant to you out of the gate. On top of that, it has a lot of flexibility as there are a lot of choices that are not locked in ahead of time.

----------


## ftafp

*The Shadowsmith*

_You know what's boring? Clerics. All they do is spam Spirit Guardians. Let's make one that's a bit more interesting_

*Race:* Elf, Mark of Shadow
*Class:* Divine Soul 1/Forge Cleric 19
*Base Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 9 Int, 17 Wis, 13 Cha
*ASI:* Telekinetic(+1 Wis)@5, Ritual Caster(Wizard)@9, +2 [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
*Tool Proficiencies:* Weaver's Tools
*Purchasing Goals:* Plate Armor, Shield, Bullseye Lantern, War Horse, Plate Barding, Spell Scrolls(Magic Mouth, Phantom Steed), Bag of Holding
*Spells of Note:* Shield, Absorb Elements, Bless, Find Familiar, Aid, Continual Flame, Darkness, Pass Without Trace, Spirit Guardians, Incite Greed, Glyph of Warding, Fabricate, Animate Objects, Summon Celestial, Planar Binding, Heroes Feast, Planar Ally, Conjure Celestial


Here's the Cliff Notes:
Up until level 7 you should be using medium armor. After that, hopefully you'll have a mountShield and Absorb Elements are a solid defensive backbone to stack on top of Forge Cleric's massive AC and defensive spellsAid and Pass Without Trace are great spells that you should be using well into high levels. Don't forget themContinual Flame and Darkness are a match made in heaven once you get 3rd level slots. RAW Continual Flame upcast at 3rd level is not dispelled by Darkness and being magical light can illuminate it. Cast both on a bull's eye lantern and you've got a protective sphere of darkness to hide in along with a cone in front of you where enemies can remain visible. When you get Find Familiar from ritual caster, have it train the beam on enemies for you. Alternatively, cast continual flame on the tip of an umbrella and darkness underneath for a Monster in the Darkness impressionIf you can get a scroll of Magic Mouth, add it to your ritual book immediately. Check out the Arcane Programmer Guide and The Other Kind of Crafting threads for more detailsIncite Greed is a deeply underrated alternative to Spirit Guardians, functioning in many ways as an ersatz Hypnotic Pattern. While repeated saves aren't great, the area covered in 3.14x larger and you can choose who you target. If you're on a mount, you can get more use out of this by casting this then speeding past the targets to draw them away from your allies, as they'll be forced to dash after youSpirit Guardians is still an option, and Telekinetic can allow you to double down on damage by using it to pull enemies into your guardians. They make the save immediately and then again on their turn.Telekinetic also works with Wall of Fire. Use ringed walls to take advantage of choke pointsFabricate with weaver's tools proficiency is a great moneymaking tool. You can double your money by crafting raw materials into giant piles of linen and reselling them due to its high price relative to density.Heroe's Feast is just a good spell. With Fabricate you should be able to afford to cast this oftenAnimate Objects immediately becomes a fantastic combat spell when you get it. Make sure to cast it on a bunch of silver piecesPlanar Binding, Glyph of Warding, Conjure Celestial, Planar Ally and Summon Celestial won't be immediately effective, but once you've got sufficiently high level slots, Upcast Planar Binding into a Glyph of Warding set to trigger when an extraplanar being is summoned, then cast one of the summoning spells into a second glyph of warding. If you did this right, you can bind extraplanar beings with no concentration requirement

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## ftafp

*The Überficer*

_In high-optimization communities, prior consensus has found Artificers to be the weakest half-caster, outperformed by Paladin's aura and Ranger's druid spells. This build is less a build per se, and more of an argument against this claim, or a showcase of every broken Artificer exploit I've collected up until now._

*NOTE:* This build is for reference only. Please do not inflict this on your hapless DM

*Race:* Half-Elf, Mark of Storm
*Class:* Artillerist 20
*Base Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 17 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha
*ASI:* Fey Touched(Silvery Barbs, +1 Int)@4, +2 [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], Resilient(+1 Wis)@19
*Infusions:* Spellwrought Tattoo(1st level), Bag of Holding, Alchemy Jug, Repeating Shot, Pipes of Haunting, Horn of Blasting
*Spells of Note:* Magic Stone, Catapult Gift of Alacrity, Find Familiar, Web, Rope Trick, Shatter, Magic Mouth, Arcane Lock, Continual Flame, Glyph of Warding, Tiny Servants, Fabricate, Conjure Minor Elementals, Creation
*Equipment:* 15 feet of rope, 3 Unskilled Hirelings at level 1, up to 8 Unskilled Hirelings at level 11
*Proficiencies:* Weaver's tools, Alchemist's Supplies

*Highlights:*
At level 1 your job is to spam magic stone and combat cantrips and have your hirelings throw the stones for you with their actionsAt level 2 you get infusions. Per the rules, Replicate Magic Item can be taken multiple times for the same item, so grab Bag of Holding twice and Spellwrought Tattoo twiceSpellwrought Tattoo can be used to give the whole party familiars, but it can also be given to your hirelings who can concentrate on spells for you. RAW Spellwrought Tattoos do not disappear until the spell you cast with them ends, so a spell like Gift of Alacrity with a duration of 8 hours and no concentration can be cast at-will for 8 hours once the tattoo is usedThe Flying Monkey familiar from Tomb of Annihilation can fly up to enemies carrying two Bags of Holding and stuff one in the other, sucking enemies into the astral plane. You can teleport your familiar into its pocket dimension as an action and then back to you as another action after using this techniqueAlchemy jug can stockpile vials of acid. You can throw up to 5 at a time with catapult to deal 3d8+10d6 damage. Upcasting only increases the number of vials you can throwAt 5 you get Rope Trick, Magic Mouth and Arcane LockYou and your hirelings can cast Rope Trick in battle then climb up the rope and reel it in for a bunker to attack from. Make sure they're always readying their action to do soMagic Mouth and Arcane Lock have a ton of uses for crafting. See the Arcane Programming Guide and The Other Kind of Crafting for more detailsAt level 6 you get the Pipes of Haunting. With this you can give enemies disadvantage on their checks to escape Webs in addition to their attack rolls and prevent them from moving out of themAt 9 you can upcast Continual Flame which is useful for even more crafting as seen in The Other Kind of CraftingAt 11 you get Spell-Storing Item, which you can give to your hirelings to pass around and blast with. Catapult, Web and Shatter are all great choicesAt 13 you get Fabricate and Conjure Minor ElementalsFabricate can be used to double your money using Weaver's Tools by buying raw materials and crafting them into 10x10x10 piles of linen which can be used in place of currency as a trade good. You can use the money and your Alchemist's Supplies large quantities of Acid to catapult, and you can potentially fabricate an Automatic Rifle given the necessary raw materials, which you can put repeating shot on and give to your Flying Monkey familiar. While it can't attack, it can use the rifle's burst fire trait to do damage with itWhen cast in a 10x5 space and used to conjure elementals of CR 1/4th or lower Conjure Minor Elementals will only be able to summon 8 Chwingas as they're the only tiny elementals in that CR range. They can grant you, your allies and your hirelings charms which often grant free spells that don't require a good casting stat. They can also each cast Pass Without TraceMore money from Fabricate also means you can store Glyphs of Warding in your Bag of Holding when you have left over slots at the end of the dayIn addition, you can now upcast Tiny Servants as backup if your hirelings die. They're easier to protect since they can take cover in your pocketsAt 14 you get the Horn of Blasting which your hirelings can pass around and blast withAt 17 you get Creation, which can duplicate magic items you have seen in addition to nonmagical ones

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## Withershins

Greetings, fun and effective builds family.

I would like to see a tuned up bladesinger build, if anyone has some great ideas or unique takes, especially with all of the new content recently - a concise breakdown would be a great resource.

I have secretly been waiting for someone to feel bladesinger inspired and tear into it.

Please and thank you.

Wither

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## Khrysaes

> Greetings, fun and effective builds family.
> 
> I would like to see a tuned up bladesinger build, if anyone has some great ideas or unique takes, especially with all of the new content recently - a concise breakdown would be a great resource.
> 
> I have secretly been waiting for someone to feel bladesinger inspired and tear into it.
> 
> Please and thank you.
> 
> Wither


What are you looking for exactly?

I like the Arcane Blade build on here.

Another option is 3 Battlesmith Arti/17 Bladesinger.
You can be a little more sad not focusing on Dex as much. Also, You can use the Barrier Tattoo item to have the AC of heavy armor without the actual armor thus still being able to Bladesing. With the changes to Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade you cant use Shadowblade or a "Whip + Spellsniper" with them any more.

You can bladesing with a one handed pistol, so Gunner and a firearm is an option. Artificers are also proficient. In AL there are pistols in Waterdeep Dragonheist and laser pistols in Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden.

----------


## Withershins

> What are you looking for exactly?
> 
> I like the Arcane Blade build on here.
> 
> Another option is 3 Battlesmith Arti/17 Bladesinger.
> You can be a little more sad not focusing on Dex as much. Also, You can use the Barrier Tattoo item to have the AC of heavy armor without the actual armor thus still being able to Bladesing. With the changes to Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade you cant use Shadowblade or a "Whip + Spellsniper" with them any more.
> 
> You can bladesing with a one handed pistol, so Gunner and a firearm is an option. Artificers are also proficient. In AL there are pistols in Waterdeep Dragonheist and laser pistols in Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden.


Thanks so much!!

Could you link the Arcane Blade build...I seem to be having some difficulty finding it.

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## Khrysaes

The Arcane Blade by Bendking
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=664

For future reference, most, but not all builds are on the first page, second post.

If you are given a name you can use Ctrl+F to find it.

I prefer 11 Rogue/9 wizard because I like Reliable talent and the extra ASI from Rogue 10 more than 6th level spells.

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## Yakk

> *The Überficer*
> 
> _In high-optimization communities, prior consensus has found Artificers to be the weakest half-caster, outperformed by Paladin's aura and Ranger's druid spells. This build is less a build per se, and more of an argument against this claim, or a showcase of every broken Artificer exploit I've collected up until now._
> 
> *NOTE:* This build is for reference only. Please do not inflict this on your hapless DM
> 
> *Race:* Half-Elf, Mark of Storm
> *Class:* Artillerist 20
> *Base Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 17 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha
> ...


Spellwrought Tattoo + Glyph of Warding

Spellwrought Tattoo requires no material components to cast the spell.
Spellwrought Tattoo only disappears when the spell it casts ends.
Glyph of Warding lasts until triggered or dispelled.

Make one Glyph of Warding tattoo, and you can mass produce Glyphs of Warding (1 per hour) indefinitely for 0 marginal cost.

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## ftafp

> Spellwrought Tattoo + Glyph of Warding
> 
> Spellwrought Tattoo requires no material components to cast the spell.
> Spellwrought Tattoo only disappears when the spell it casts ends.
> Glyph of Warding lasts until triggered or dispelled.
> 
> Make one Glyph of Warding tattoo, and you can mass produce Glyphs of Warding (1 per hour) indefinitely for 0 marginal cost.


yeah, glyph of warding tattoos are fantastically broken. Thankfully in this case (though I think it's a bad general rule) magic items other than the ones on the infusion list are entirely under dm control

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## Chaos Jackal

> yeah, glyph of warding tattoos are fantastically broken. Thankfully in this case (though I think it's a bad general rule) magic items other than the ones on the infusion list are entirely under dm control


So are hirelings for the most part, if we wanna be fair.

Anyway, I don't really have any issue with most of the suggestions and tricks listed in that post, but I am curious about something else... Is the high-op consensus really that artificers are weaker than rangers? Based on what, exactly? Sure, the conjuration spells are good, but artificers also get a number of more than solid spells, rituals, innate Con save proficiency to actually maintain those spells (and are SAD compared to the ranger's MADness, although that doesn't matter much for summons), strong high-tier features, easy ways to abuse the action economy and are additionally the only class which can truly interact with the item system regardless of DM provision.

The listed tricks are cool and all, but I didn't think that you needed hireling abuse or _glyph of warding_ shenanigans to outdo rangers.

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## 1Pirate

I've been wondering, with all the builds now here, who's played through a campaign with one? I'm curious how they play "out in the field" so to speak.

I did the Celestial Generalist up through level 12 and it played pretty smooth for most of it(probably all if my DM had been a little more lenient with the component rules). 

Anyone else have some experiences with the builds in this thread?

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## Khrysaes

> I've been wondering, with all the builds now here, who's played through a campaign with one? I'm curious how they play "out in the field" so to speak.
> 
> I did the Celestial Generalist up through level 12 and it played pretty smooth for most of it(probably all if my DM had been a little more lenient with the component rules). 
> 
> Anyone else have some experiences with the builds in this thread?


Ive played in a few. 
Namely the arcane cleric in ludicsavants op. And some others at least similar to some builds listed that i made myself before knowing they were on here. 

The arcane cleric was great with its high ac and a focus on spirit guardians. It was my wifes first ever character, and i made it for her because she disnt know what to do. I thought it would be a simple enough supportish character. She ended up melting enemies all the time. We did essentially five her shillelagh permanently, and never actually had her cast the spell. Otherwise her go to was spirit guardians and spiritual weapon, then walk around hitting things. Healing as needed.

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## LudicSavant

> I've been wondering, with all the builds now here, who's played through a campaign with one? I'm curious how they play "out in the field" so to speak.
> 
> I did the Celestial Generalist up through level 12 and it played pretty smooth for most of it(probably all if my DM had been a little more lenient with the component rules). 
> 
> Anyone else have some experiences with the builds in this thread?


I test the builds I post at each tier of play, which is part of why it takes me so long to post =P

Notably, I also make sure to test them against 6+ Deadly encounters a day.  The highest number of daily encounters I've done in a real game was 14 (with a somewhat scaled down tiefling version of the Nuclear Wizard navigating a deathtrap-filled dimension-hopping dungeon).  That was in a game that ran from level 3-20 over the course of a couple of years.

So I could talk about an awful lot of experiences.  I'm not really sure where to begin.

I'd say the biggest misconception I occasionally see on the forums, the biggest difference between actual play and what a few people expect when they read a build is that they'll tunnel vision and think the build is just about _one thing_, when (at least for me) it's actually about versatility and adaptability.  It's why you see me put things like Ritual Caster on my Fighters.  For example, the Nuclear Wizard build is extremely strong even if Magic Missile isn't used (and indeed, I definitely didn't use it in every encounter, instead reserving it for situations where single target burst was called for).  But casual readers sometimes just assume that the NW is _about_ Magic Missile, or the Arcana Cleric is _about_ Booming Blade, or the Drow Monk is _about_ Darkness.  But the drow Monk is also about action economy, PWT, stun, and Silence.  The Arcana Cleric mostly takes feats that would be good even if you never touched melee and just has that as _one of_ the things it does to support its lockdown spellcasting kit (sometimes without even spending Actions... just threatening it via Warcaster in order to discourage movement).  The Nuclear Wizard is an offensive and controlling monster that can easily switch between high resource efficiency and deadly novas, with a Batman toolbelt that's unusually broad even by Wizard standards (because of Sculpt spell control tricks, offtank potential, above-par low-resource output, great AoE and single target damage on top of the usual Wizard utility, etc).

This "thinking about one thing" focus leads to some of the things I personally advise against in building... like when I occasionally see Arcana Cleric builds that dump a ton of feats into their melee attack (like Polearm Master, Crusher, etc).  Contrast the Arcana Cleric I gave:  Warcaster, Wisdom boosts, Lucky, Res(Con), and 2/3rds of Magic Initiate (Thorn Whip and Absorb Elements) are good even if you never throw a punch during an encounter.  It's an adaptable full caster, first and foremost, which played (at least for me) like a sort of walking man-eating-bog that demands enemies deal with it before they can do much to the rest of the party (especially since it can do things like, say, pick up the entire party off the death gate _and_ give them all Dispel... as a bonus action).

The other thing I noticed is that, especially for more complex characters, the person playing it makes a massive difference; this was mostly observed in instances where one player was absent from a session (for whatever IRL reasons) and someone else controlled their character.  The difference in performance would be like night and day, just because people were making better or worse choices.

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## Nod_Hero

> I've been wondering, with all the builds now here, who's played through a campaign with one? I'm curious how they play "out in the field" so to speak.


Played an Ancestral Avenger up to level 13 in a campaign and it was beastly good. 
We rolled stats and I rolled pretty dang good so I went with a different race (Leonin) and was a feat behind for most of it. Overall though, very good stuff and cemented Echo Knight as one of my favorite subclasses.

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## Chaos Jackal

> I've been wondering, with all the builds now here, who's played through a campaign with one? I'm curious how they play "out in the field" so to speak.
> 
> I did the Celestial Generalist up through level 12 and it played pretty smooth for most of it(probably all if my DM had been a little more lenient with the component rules). 
> 
> Anyone else have some experiences with the builds in this thread?


I've used the Arcana Cleric Frontliner one (complete with Azorius background), as well as the Soulknife, in high-level oneshots, and they performed quite well. While the EK didn't go through much and I can't vouch for it in tougher scenarios, it just didn't care in simpler encounters and did work as expected there, which was basically steamrolling things.

The cleric however went through multiple deadly encounters (I think it was 4), as part of a 3-person group no less, and with two less than stellar players, and was excellent. Not gonna claim I didn't break a sweat, but damage, durability and support were all high and the resources were enough to last throughout the encounters; I could still do a couple more with what I had left by the end of it. And I'm pretty sure I didn't play the build at its utmost potential.

I am also running the Ride of the Valkyries paladin in a campaign where I knew magic item access would be easy (and indeed, I got my Str item quite fast) and that having a mount wouldn't be more trouble than it's worth (also turned out to be true), but we've only reached lv7 so far there, so I can't comment much here. It's been stellar for the levels we've gone through, although I'm playing a more support-y version due to the group's composition and experience (picked up Inspiring Leader already at lv4 and am using the Blessed Warrior fighting style for _guidance_); ultimately, however, it's a relatively straightforward build, especially early on, so all I'm really saying here is that Vengeance paladin is nice in tier 1 and tier 2. Haven't had the chance to try the higher level strategies yet, obviously, but I doubt there'll be much issue.

----------


## Ganryu

Armor of Abs 


Rogue 19 {Swashbuckler} / Barbarian 1
Basis: We're taking mostly a rogue setup, but stealing two things from barbarian to make up ungodly bulky. An AC of 22-23, and rage's resistances. We'll end up with 4 resistances, evasion, a ton of hit points, and able to quarter the damage from a lot of hits.


Race: Four main options options: 


*Goliath:* Additional resistance to Cold, and Stone's Endurance is pretty good with this build, this is the default I'm assuming, but it let's you shrug off 1d12+Con damage. If you're already resistant to the source, this means you can basically just nullify one attack. 
*Warforged:* Who doesn't love +1 AC? 23 is preeeetty decent on two classes that apart generally don't have amazing AC. Simic Hybrid's also consideration, but Ravnica is a little more niche. That said, I got into this build to show off my abs as is my right as a crazed adventurer, and this is a different kind of oily abs! 
*Half-Elf -* I'm sure you can manage some reason why this angsty little part elf is part barbarian, but more than that, this is a MAD build, and half elf immediately is great for 3 stat spreads. With this, ignore the resilient feat listed later, and immediately start rogue. You'll lose a saving throw, but gain inspiring leader for your team, more or less.
*V.Human -* Believe or not, this build is great for Inspiring Leader, even if your charisma isn't your primary stat. 


Optional Feats along the way: Resilence- Dex, Toughness, Shield Mastery, and Inspiring leader are all great on this build. You can't get all of them though, but a few are nice.


Str 13 (Multiclass minimum, if DM ignores that, drop this like it's hot, and pump charisma, ESPECIALLY if you're a halfelf.) 
Dex 17 (+2 - Tasha's)
Con 16 (+1) 
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 12 

* Power Spike levels are in bold
Lvl 1 - Barbarian, extra hit points, saving prof in Str and Con. 
Unarmored Defense- This is actually our bread and butter, normally useless, now we have as a rogue, a starting AC of 18 with a shield. 

Rage - Half damage on slashing/bludgeoning/piercing is good on everyone! We're forgoing rage damage, however. 


Lvl 2 - immediately switch to rogue, we're staying here for a while. Grab expertise in persuasion and athletics. Our shield is nice for pumped up AC, but we can also drop it, and just wrastle anything that's in our way. 


Lvl 3 - Cunning action, nice 


Lvl 4 - Steady aim is amazing, but that's not the big thing. We're here for Swashbuckler. We are the party tank. And that doesn't just mean being immune to damage and saves, it means punishing an enemy for attacking anyone else... and then punishing them for attacking us! 


Lvl 5 - Resilient - Dex - Gets dex to 18. This is optional, but if you don't do this, make sure to start out as rogue. If stats don't need raising, shield mastery is also an option. AC is now 19.


*Lvl 6 -* Cunning action - You know how you are beefy as hell, have high AC, and half 4 different damage types... yeah, now you can half another hit once per turn, more than likely quartering some damage the DM was throwing your way. You're hit points are now more a suggestion than a number. 


Lvl 7 -  Expertise - more of a ribbon at this level, take what you want. Though, if you want to purely be annoying, grab investigation. Because this build is bulky against most things, why not ruin illusionists day too?


Lvl 8 - Evasion - Well... This is just plain rude, dex saves more than likely will do nothing to you. 


Lvl 9 - ASI - Max out Dex, AC is now 20... now go chest pump the armored fighter naked and watch him cry... 


*Lvl 10 -* This is the point of the build. You get Panache from your subclass. THIS is why you grabbed expertise persuasion btw. You weren't meant to be the party face, they were too busy staring at your abs anyways. This is where you become the tank, as you can keep grabbing creatures attention to prevent them doing as much damage to others.

"At 9th level, your charm becomes extraordinarily beguiling. As an action, you can make a Charisma (Persuasion) check contested by a creature's Wisdom (Insight) check. The creature must be able to hear you, and the two of you must share a language.


If you succeed on the check and the creature is hostile to you, it has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you and can't make opportunity attacks against targets other than you. This effect lasts for 1 minute, until one of your companions attacks the target or affects it with a spell, or until you and the target are more than 60 feet apart.


If you succeed on the check and the creature isn't hostile to you, it is charmed by you for 1 minute. While charmed, it regards you as a friendly acquaintance. This effect ends immediately if you or your companions do anything harmful to it." 


Btw, nothing says you can't spam this every turn. 
-------------------------------
Lvl 11 - ASI, spend it in Con. More HP, and your AC is now 21. Laugh as you're now winning those chest bumps with the fighter. 


Lvl 12 - Reliable Talent - This normally is a beautiful ribbon... but for you, it's more. This applies to Panache. And, if you drop the shield, it will affect your grapple checks as well. 


Lvl 13 - ASI - Max out Con. Take more hits, laugh more with an AC of 22, while wearing just a shield... 


Lvl 14 - Elegant maneuver - Actually kinda useless. Sneak attack goes up? 


Lvl 15 - Blindsense - You can now play tag in the dark. Fun, but a bit of a ribbon for you. 


*Lvl 16* - Slippery Mind - This is the level your DM finds one of your main counters just... disappears. You gain proficiency in wisdom saving throws. Beforehand, they were the bane of this build, able to stop you in your tracks with things like 'hold person'. Now you get to politely ask spell casters for their lunch money. This is your 4th saving throw btw, leaving you vulnerable to intelligence and charisma saving throws... which are pretty rare. Just... just watch out for magic jar. Nobody else gets pecs like yours. 


Lvl 17 - ASI - We've officially maxed out our two primary stats, Con and Dex, so we get to have ribbons here. You can either boost Charisma to help with Panache and your initiative, or you can grab feats. I suggest Tough or Inspiring Leader to make yourself even more bulky.


Lvl 18 - Master Duelist - you get advantage once if you miss. Not... the strongest capstone for a subclass 


Lvl 19 - Elusive - Nobody gets advantage on you. Pretty good. Not amazing, but good. 


Lvl 20 - There's an option here, you can grab a feat here, same as lvl 17, bump your charisma as you are a sexy lil bastard, or you can get advantage on dex saves by leveling barbarian here as well. You technically get reckless attack, which actually does synergize well with Elusive, as there's no penalty for advantage, but you have a dex build, so which is better, +1 with advantage, or +5? It's literally just an option, you're more here for Danger Sense... which is weird, but so is most of the strengths of this build! 
 Choice is yours. I say grab a feat and stay rogue, as it maxes out your sneak attack damage. 


Pros: So, at the end of this, we're still mostly a rogue, but we trade out 1 nat 20 a day for massive boosts in our AC, additional HP, resistance to 3 damage types. In addition, this build gives you your natural right to walk through the battlefield buck naked, showing off those abs, and what's the DM going to do, arrest you? The guard will have to catch you first! You're like a greased pig! 

This build looks straight forward, but gets bulk and AC together that really neither class gets by itself.  Without focus fire, you can basically just ignore things going your way. Oh, and as you are mostly rogue, despite being so tanky, you do have ranged options.  

You get the best of both worlds of tanking from Rogue and Barbarian. You can half damage with cunning action once a turn, AoE's generally don't matter with Evasive, you have high AC, and are proficient in 4 different saving throws by the end. 

Cons: For most of this builds life, it is pretty vulnerable to spell casters. Your rogue levels are delayed, and your reaction is always spoken for to reduce damage, so the general use of sentinel on a rogue isn't possible here. Multihits do far more damage to you than swing and a miss strikes, meaning focus fire can take you down. That, and if your DM homebrews half as much as mine, int and charisma saves will still take you down.  This class is also MAD, with your AC slowly rising til lvl 13. It's not bad at all, but by the time you have 22 AC, creatures will have a lot higher to hit. Most attacks will miss you, but you will take damage. This build is bulky, but not invincible, there are ways to eventually take you down.

----------


## ftafp

> Is the high-op consensus really that artificers are weaker than rangers?


Yes and no. A lot of it depends on what the DM will allow and what the player knows how to do, but generally ranger's favored due to its spell list and access to the archery fighting style. In particular, Pass Without Trace, Conjure Animals, Plant Growth and Conjure Woodland Beings are some of the best spells at their levels, and being long-duration spells they're well suited to half-casters who are working with limited spell slots. Artificer in contrast gets some good ones like Shield, Web, Fireball and Tiny Servants, but due to limited slots Web is the only one they're going to get a significant amount of use out of. Compounding this, artificers other than the battle smith fall behind in damage due to their reliance on cantrips (or in armorer's case, bad weapons), and in the battle smith's case there's still a gap. Archery offers twice the bonus to attack rolls that a repeating weapon does, and unlike repeating weapon it will stack with any magical weapons the ranger picks up along the way. The simple fact is, artificer falls behind in damage and control hard without resorting to cheesy tricks, and this is all before you factor in ranger's subclass features, particularly those of Gloomstalker.

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## Dayn

> Armor of Abs


Right after swashbuckler came out in SCAG, I made a very similar type of build and have since played it all the way up to 20.  I found it to be extremely effective.  Two suggestions I would make: first, take more barb levels.  I found danger sense, bear totem resistance (or ancestral protectors, which didn't exist at the time), and extra attack much more valuable than the high level rogue features.

The other big thing: for this build, the sentinel feat is practically mandatory.  The DM will get sick of trying to kill you and try to attack other people instead, so you will get lots of opportunities for powerful reaction attacks.  I took it as a variant human so as not to slow down the dex/con progression.

One thing that's a little tricky: you have to be careful using panache with rage active.  If you haven't attacked or taken damage since your last turn, your rage will drop.  I eventually got a scimitar of speed that solved this problem.

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## stoutstien

> Yes and no. A lot of it depends on what the DM will allow and what the player knows how to do, but generally ranger's favored due to its spell list and access to the archery fighting style. In particular, Pass Without Trace, Conjure Animals, Plant Growth and Conjure Woodland Beings are some of the best spells at their levels, and being long-duration spells they're well suited to half-casters who are working with limited spell slots. Artificer in contrast gets some good ones like Shield, Web, Fireball and Tiny Servants, but due to limited slots Web is the only one they're going to get a significant amount of use out of. Compounding this, artificers other than the battle smith fall behind in damage due to their reliance on cantrips (or in armorer's case, bad weapons), and in the battle smith's case there's still a gap. Archery offers twice the bonus to attack rolls that a repeating weapon does, and unlike repeating weapon it will stack with any magical weapons the ranger picks up along the way. The simple fact is, artificer falls behind in damage and control hard without resorting to cheesy tricks, and this is all before you factor in ranger's subclass features, particularly those of Gloomstalker.


What's stopping any artificer who want to deal damage to grab Archer with a feat? They are much SaD by in nature than rangers and will have the space to spare. Even then the damage gap you are talking about is like 4% even if you give them both a magical weapon which doesn't weaken infusions because that's a deep list to features to shift that resource around in.

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## Citadel97501

Frankly, the only time a ranger can compare is if you compare a level 3 or so Artificer: Armorer, to either the Ranger: Monster Hunter, or Ranger: Gloom Stalker.  As those two subclasses are the most powerful ranger subclasses, compared to the worst Artificer Subclass.

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## Evaar

> I've been wondering, with all the builds now here, who's played through a campaign with one? I'm curious how they play "out in the field" so to speak.
> 
> I did the Celestial Generalist up through level 12 and it played pretty smooth for most of it(probably all if my DM had been a little more lenient with the component rules). 
> 
> Anyone else have some experiences with the builds in this thread?


I did the Celestial Generalist for a few levels before that particular campaign fell apart. It felt good but that crew was so inexperienced and unoptimized that it was difficult to really assess- like obviously it was the most powerful character in the party, our Paladin didn't understand how Smite works much less how to optimize a build.

I'm working on the Soulknife (meaning Eldritch Knight) right now, though doing it with my own Tiefling twist just for preferred flavor. I take Infernal Constitution, trading the offense of Elven Accuracy for more defense. So far I love it, but we're only 5 and it's just pure Dex based EK. But looking at the road ahead, it's only going to get better from here. Every level is going to bring me something really valuable.

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## ftafp

> What's stopping any artificer who want to deal damage to grab Archer with a feat?


The fact that you first need to spend your ASIs on crossbow expert, sharpshooter, and getting your Int up to 20. A fighter dip would get it quicker, that said it's a moot point. Archery alone doesn't make or break the difference. It's not even you main source of damage after level 9. That's coming from Conjure Animals which vastly outpaces both classes damage-dealing potential. Artificers can get Conjure Animals with Mark of Handling but even with both Ranger still has the better spell list

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## stoutstien

> The fact that you first need to spend your ASIs on crossbow expert, sharpshooter, and getting your Int up to 20. A fighter dip would get it quicker, that said it's a moot point. Archery alone doesn't make or break the difference. It's not even you main source of damage after level 9. That's coming from Conjure Animals which vastly outpaces both classes damage-dealing potential. Artificers can get Conjure Animals with Mark of Handling but even with both Ranger still has the better spell list


Eh. Not without putting serious resources into making sure your concentration checks are better than what most rangers settle for. even then I don't think their spell list saves them. I do think rangers generally get too much flack and are perfectly serviceable but being both a memorized caster and having a fixed spells known problem hurts. I'd take the artificer's prepared/ritual casting any day and if I really want one of those spells there are ways to get them.

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## Quietus

> Eh. Not without putting serious resources into making sure your concentration checks are better than what most rangers settle for. even then I don't think their spell list saves them. I do think rangers generally get too much flack and are perfectly serviceable but being both a memorized caster and having a fixed spells known problem hurts. I'd take the artificer's prepared/ritual casting any day and if I really want one of those spells there are ways to get them.


I can concur with this.  I'm playing a Wis-forward Beastmaster ranger, using crossbow expert to fire a heavy crossbow as his main attack (underwater campaign).  My concentration checks are *awful*.  We have enough of a front line between my beast, a summon (I usually use summon beast/summon fey over conjure animals), and our melee party members that I don't get hit terribly often, but when I do, any concentration I'm keeping is a coin flip at best.  Even with Tasha's option for Primeval Awareness, my spells known list is like... 5 spells, at Ranger9?  

I'm enjoying the character, but if this was not an underwater campaign, I'd be dropping crossbow expert for resilient con so fast your head would spin.

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## ftafp

*The Ghallanda Innkeeper: A Fun and Effective Chef Build*

*Race:* Halfling, Mark of Hospitality
*Class:* Divine Soul 1, Life Cleric 1, Dao Warlock 18
*Progression:* Divine Soul 1, Life Cleric 1, Dao Warlock 1 -> 18
*Base Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 9 Int, 13 Wis, 17 Cha
*ASI:* Fey Touched(Gift of Alacrity, +1 Cha)@6, +2 [email protected], Inspiring [email protected], Resilient(+1 Wisdom)@18
*Pact Boon:* Pact of the Tome
*Invocations:* Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Book of Ancient Secrets, Aspect of the Moon, Eldritch Mind, Grasp of Hadar
*Spells of Note:* Catapult, Ceremony, Gift of Alacrity, Goodberry, Aid, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Creation, Wall of Stone
*Tools:* Chef's Utensils
*Important Background Details:* Must have seen Primal Fruits and Magic Mushrooms from TCE as part of backstory

*Cliff Notes:*
The core of this build revolves around using as many short rests as you can get away with to buff your allies and then recover the slots. At low levels this will mostly be Gift of Alacrity and Aid (you can refluff these spells as being in the food) and Goodberries (which are further buffed by upcasting with Disciple of Life), but at higher levels, Creation replaces goodberryCreation is normally a useless spell, but RAW Creation can replicate magic items you've seen as long as they're a single object are made only of the materials in the spell's description. Magic Mushrooms and Primal Fruits, being vegetable matter, last 24 hours and have some awesome effects. I suggest making a whole uprooted shrub of Primal fruits for 6 fruits with each casting, and making liberal use of the Death Ward fruit, as this spell can be stacked. For instantaneous effects, cook them into dishes, as RAW it's only an action if you eat the raw fruit. If it's cooked into food you can use your item interactionAspect of the moon lets you stay awake your whole long rest, allowing you divide up your free hour of spellcasting to take short rests during the night. Now you get 8 full sessions out of one long restCeremony offers a lot of one-time buffs that you can refluff as foods with fancy edible silver garnish, but you might want to make a habit of cooking up wedding cake. Just leave one humanoid enemy alive after the battle to shotgun-marry them to every humanoid memeber of the party before finishing them off. Being widowed, your allies can now benefit from Wedding Cakes of +2 AC whenever they want.Ceremony and many other divination rituals can be copied to your Cookbook of Shadows and be refluffed as more magic food, while Leomund's Tiny Hut can serve as a temporary inn for your alliesMake your genie vessel a House Ghallanda Manor Key since they basically do the same thing anyway. Inside is a staging site for your own personal restaurant that you can retreat into in combat after casting a concentration spellWhile inside you can set up a real restaurant/hotel (I advise a maze like the one from the Shining) with Wall of Stone which you get back on a short rest. You can later catapult your Manor key to have it summon Hotel California into the real world around your enemies to trap them inside Limited Wish and Wish are great for giving your whole party a free Heroes Feast, though you can really use it for whateverLast but not least, when flying in combat, remember to go prone in mid air at the end of your turn so attacks against you have disadvantage. You can stand up at the start of your next turn to EB then lie down again. It's just good sense.

*Variant: The Ghallanda Barkeeper*

*Class:* Alchemist 3, Dao Warlock 17
*Progression:* Artificer 1, Dao Warlock 1, Alchemist 2 -> 3, Dao Warlock 2 -> 17
*Base Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 9 Wis, 17 Cha
*ASI:* Fey Touched(Gift of Alacrity, +1 Cha)@7, +2 [email protected], Inspiring [email protected], Resilient(+1 Wisdom)@19
*Infusions:* Spellwrought Tattoo(1st level)x2, Homunculus Servant
*Equipment:* A sled dog (listed in Icewind Dale), or failing that a Mastiff, a Chest of Preserving, and a Chest of Preserving

*Cliff Notes:*
This variant trades spell progression and raw healing for a few neat artificer tricks, the first of which is using warlock rest slots to brew drinks. A canine mount is recommended for this build, both because a mount can use its action to drink some fizzy lifting drink with their action (just give it one of those barrels of brandy they put on Saint Bernards to drink from), and because most people like dogs and won't have an issue with you bringing them into a castle, tavern, or store. In addition, a dog can easily grapple allies with its mouth once you get flight of your own. Just remember you can't get on until its drank its fill or else it can't use its action to do so. Either way it's good to have a mount, flying or otherwiseHomunculus Servant may seem like an odd choice, but RAW it's capable of speaking. The text may be vague, but all other instances of of creatures who can understand but not speak a language specify explicitly that they cannot speak), which means it can say the command word for your spellwrought tattoo and concentrate on it for you. In addition, being intelligent and being able to have hands means you can sleep in the saddle and tell your homunculus to wake you and feed you an coffee of boldness if it looks like the party is about to get into a fight. Both of these work since both taking its own action and administering experimental elixirs are allowed if you are incapacitated, such as from being asleep. Finally, the homunculs can carry a small party member (including yourself) into the air which is allowed according to Crawford's twitterIf your DM doesn't allow any of the tricks with homunculus servant, see if you can double up on spellwrought tattoos. RAW this is actually allowed as long as you take replicate magic item for the same item multiple times (you have to know it twice, not just use it twice). If this is allowed, a Gift of Alacrity tattoo can be used to buff the whole party (the tattoo doesn't disappear until the spell you cast with it ends) so you can choose a different spell like Command for your spellwrought tattooYou can get a chest of preserving as an infusion but it's a common magic item so it's best to just put down the money for it. Keep your beverages and berries in here for long-term storage. It's just nice to have around

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## ftafp

> Eh. Not without putting serious resources into making sure your concentration checks are better than what most rangers settle for. even then I don't think their spell list saves them. I do think rangers generally get too much flack and are perfectly serviceable but being both a memorized caster and having a fixed spells known problem hurts. I'd take the artificer's prepared/ritual casting any day and if I really want one of those spells there are ways to get them.





> Eh. Not without putting serious resources into making sure your concentration checks are better than what most rangers settle for. even then I don't think their spell list saves them. I do think rangers generally get too much flack and are perfectly serviceable but being both a memorized caster and having a fixed spells known problem hurts. I'd take the artificer's prepared/ritual casting any day and if I really want one of those spells there are ways to get them.


This is why Tabletop Builds recommends starting with a 1-level dip in Divine Soul. It gets you con saves, shield, bless and a free 2d4 to a save once per short rest

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## stoutstien

> This is why Tabletop Builds recommends starting with a 1-level dip in Divine Soul. It gets you con saves, shield, bless and a free 2d4 to a save once per short rest


So further increasing MaDness, pushing back those big spells even more, and losing dex save prof? Colour me sceptical in regards of using rangers in that sense within the parameters of this thread. Not to say there isn't a few fun build with using ranger but if it's the spells you are after then why not use druid or bard?  I mean there is probably a build there using divine soul and fey wander but takes too long to get it's feet under it.

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## ftafp

> So further increasing MaDness, pushing back those big spells even more, and losing dex save prof? Colour me sceptical in regards of using rangers in that sense within the parameters of this thread. Not to say there isn't a few fun build with using ranger but if it's the spells you are after then why not use druid or bard?  I mean there is probably a build there using divine soul and fey wander but takes too long to get it's feet under it.


you're hardly increasing MaDness. With the standard array you can easily have 8 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis and 13 Cha. Other than the swarmkeeper, Rangers don't even really need their Wisdom as none of their good spells use it. Delaying spells with a one level dip is pretty standard, especially if this one level dip ensures you can keep concentrating on those spells later on. Losing dex saves isn't much of a loss either. Aside from the fact that most effects that use dex saves only deal flat damage with no dangerous riders that's easily reduced by Absorb Elements, optimal play assumes that you're using the terrain to give yourself cover, which gives you a large bonus to your dex saving throws. In contrast, con saves buff your concentration, protect you from necrotic and poison damage which are both common and not reduced by absorb elements, and con saves tend to be used for crippling status conditions like being poisoned, blinded, stunned or paralyzed. It's well worth the tradeoff

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## stoutstien

> you're hardly increasing MaDness. With the standard array you can easily have 8 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis and 13 Cha. Other than the swarmkeeper, Rangers don't even really need their Wisdom as none of their good spells use it. Delaying spells with a one level dip is pretty standard, especially if this one level dip ensures you can keep concentrating on those spells later on. Losing dex saves isn't much of a loss either. Aside from the fact that most effects that use dex saves only deal flat damage with no dangerous riders that's easily reduced by Absorb Elements, optimal play assumes that you're using the terrain to give yourself cover, which gives you a large bonus to your dex saving throws. In contrast, con saves buff your concentration, protect you from necrotic and poison damage which are both common and not reduced by absorb elements, and con saves tend to be used for crippling status conditions like being poisoned, blinded, stunned or paralyzed. It's well worth the tradeoff


If only there was a SaD class that had Con saves, AE/shield, spot save boosting, extra attack, permanent pet with damage type that bypasses most resistance/immunity issues, summon spells, and the same half casting chassis that doesn't require such a delay.

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## Ganryu

Guys, knock it off with Ranger vs Artificer, go put that somewhere else, I actually like this thread, keep it on topic.

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## Ganryu

The Medic
"_I'm not a doctor, I'm a medic."
_"_What's the difference?"
_"_Well, a doctor cures people. A medic just makes them more comfortable...while they die."_
Thief Rogue {20} 
Feats: Healer, Sentinel
Aasimar -Protector 


Fun build to run, you don't need magic to keep people up. I've actually run this as someone posing as a cleric, and it worked... surprisingly well. Grab expertise in deception, religion, and medicine to make it extra potent if you want that route! 


STR 8 
DEX 17 (+2 Tasha's rule) 
CON 16 (+1) 
INT 8
WIS 14
CHA 10 






Important lvls

Lvl 1 - We're not really a healer til lvl 4, but healing hands will work in a bind.

Lvl 3 - this is where the first major part of this build comes online. Fast hands is a criminally underrated ability, and we get to see why next level. :D 


Lvl 4 - Grab the healer feat. You now gain the following, and can do so as either an action, or a bonus action, or both, due to fast hands: 


"You are an able physician, allowing you to mend wounds quickly and get your allies back in the fight. You gain the following benefits:


When you use a healer's kit to stabilize a dying creature, that creature also regains 1 hit point.
As an action. you can spend one use of a healer's kit to tend to a creature and restore 1d6 + 4 hit points to it, plus additional hit points equal to the creature's maximum number of Hit Dice. The creature can't regain hit points from this feat again until it finishes a short or long rest." 


This is the crux of the entire build, basically they heal 1d6+4+ their level, which means this gets stronger as your party levels up. You can only use it once per creature, but is a decent amount of healing. Ontop of this, you can bring someone to 1 hit point as long as you use a healer's kit.  And even if you use the basic heal, healing hands can heal for a decent amount a second time.  Everything in the build just becomes slightly better per level after this, no real new tools. Healing someone for 50 in a single turn with no magic isn't bad.


Lvl 8 - Dex up, half feat would work, moderately armored is a decent choice here for more AC.
Lvl 10 - Dex up
Lvl 12 - Sentinel is nice, you are a front line healer, whenever someone hits a party member you are protecting, you have a reaction to shank them for the attempt. 
Lvl 13 - You can use Magic devices not meant for you. Prayer beads are nice to keep up with the healing theme, though you are using magic... kind of. This is a sometimes snack and us cheating on our non magic diet, but technically, we're not using the spell, the item is. 
Lvl 16 - Choice of Mobile or Telekenetic. This will help you shove a downed party member away from an enemy, or grab and run with them, taking them to safety. 
Lvl 19 - Tough or Con.

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## stoutstien

> Guys, knock it off with Ranger vs Artificer, go put that somewhere else, I actually like this thread, keep it on topic.


Think it's important to keep things in perspective when it comes to these type of PC concepts. It doesn't have to be a overly complicated or take extensive multi-classing to have a fun and effective build. Where fun is subjective one of the best build on here is the celestial general list is an amazing example of this. Your bog standard artillerist isn't that different from it.
 Having seen them both in play at the same table together they are up in top tiers of encounter destroying duos with enough steam to plow through deadly encounters with incredible resource conservation. I'd consider them both anvils in that they form the base in which others can smash challenges against with reckless abandonment. It's rare for them to break before the hammers or the object being struck.

There's some truly outstanding and creative builds in this thread but we can't lose sight of those that work just as well even of they are simplistic.

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## Wraith

There are a lot of really fun and interesting builds listed in his thread, but I haven't seen much from people who have tried to play as them - would be great to see if any of them live up to the 'hype' that comes from the theory.  :Small Smile: 

So, money-where-my-mouth-is time; I started a new campaign recently and decided to use a Eclectic, Fun & Effective Build for my character. My GM is running us through a tweaked version of Rime of the Frost Maiden - I say 'tweaked' because I thought that I had played it before, but I don't remember anything that has happened so far, but that might just be on me. 

My first choice was the Eye of Annihilation, primarily because it was one of my ideas and I really, really want to blow stuff up. The alternative was the Soulknife by LudicSavant because I haven't played as a Fighter since before 3rd Edition, I haven't played a Dex-build since _ever_, and also I like the idea of being very self-sufficient in terms of not needing equipment, armour, or anything else - just me and my spells slots against the world.

Unsure of which to go with, I asked my GM to decide which would be the most suitable for his campaign and he said he preferred the Soulknife, with a caveat - please don't be an elf. The campaign exists within his pre-existing world which we explored in a prior campaign, and elves have... problems. Specifically, they met the previous PC party and there aren't a lot of them left who are willing to step foot outside of their own country. Which is entirely deserved, by the way. Jerks.

I'm okay with that. I've instead taken Variant Human with Fey-Touched as my feat - I still get the one-per-day teleport that I would have from being Shadar-Kai, but instead of the one round of Resistance I got an additional level 1 spell instead (I took Command, because I'm a firm believer that characters with Wizard spellcasting should pick up Cleric or Druid spells wherever possible), so after tweaking my stats a little (Dex 16 is as good as Dex 17, it just means my first ASI will be +2DEX instead of Elven Accuracy) it's basically the same.

And I have to say, it's working pretty well. We're still low levels so I don't have the eponymous Soulknife (the Shadow Blade spell) yet, but it's not far off and in the meantime it turns out that being able to use spells instead of needing to buy armour, decent weapons and the rest? REALLY handy when you're travelling through a frozen wasteland and basic equipment is price-gouged to heck and back.  :Small Tongue: 

The only thing I'm struggling with is getting Booming Blade to proc. I've only used it a few times so far, but in each case I've hit the enemy, sheathed them in thunderous power...And then they just stand there and try to hit me back. It'll be great at level 5 when it starts to do extra on-contact damage, but until then I don't know if there's a reliable way I can get my opponents to move themselves that I haven't noticed, or if it's just part-and-parcel of the wonderful, hellish existence that is "being level 3".

All in all - the build isn't 'pure' due to the requirements of the campaign and the series of unfortunate personal choices that led me to this point, BUT apart from that I like it a lot. Lots of different things to do, plenty of points to build a personality around (Wult is a hard-bitten, determined Bounty Hunter that uses magic and a variety of tricks to make sure that nothing stands between him and his quarry - see the 'teleports through a Wall of Force' gif in Ludic's original post) and I have a pretty solid role in the party as Magic Tank without overshadowing anyone. Neat.  :Small Smile:

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## LudicSavant

Glad to hear you're enjoying it!  You can actually find quite a few testimonials / stories about using the builds in games on here by now (including a few on just the last page of the thread)... it's just sort of scattered all over the place.  But it's always nice to see more =)




> The only thing I'm struggling with is getting Booming Blade to proc. I've only used it a few times so far, but in each case I've hit the enemy, sheathed them in thunderous power...And then they just stand there and try to hit me back. It'll be great at level 5 when it starts to do extra on-contact damage, but until then I don't know if there's a reliable way I can get my opponents to move themselves that I haven't noticed, or if it's just part-and-parcel of the wonderful, hellish existence that is "being level 3".


My advice here would be to reverse your thinking a bit.  Instead of thinking "how can I force my enemy to move," think "how can Team PCs capitalize on an enemy standing still?"  Think of it less like a pure damage bonus at this point and more like Sentinel.  Encouraging the enemy to stay still is _the point_, the threat of damage is the means by which you accomplish it.  Positioning is king in tactical groups, and you deny the enemy's ability to position (or at the very least, tax them for it).

Your allies now can line up cover easily, lay down hazards, control who's in reach of the enemy easily, and more.  Hazards can be as simple and accessible as an Unseen Servant or Familiar starting an oil flask fire, a caster using Create Bonfire, etc.  Or they can be much deadlier abilities.  Even just the situation of "the enemy stops moving and starts attacking the Tank build Fighter instead of, say, that squishy caster" is a nice thing for you.

There's stuff that'll force an enemy to move too, of course.  You'll synergize with teammates who use things like Dissonant Whispers or Command.  But again, the Booming Blade OAs are there for control/tanking first.  If they're encouraging an enemy to stay still, then it's doing its job.

But really, you don't have to force them.  Just take advantage of them not moving, and you'll either benefit from that, or they'll decide that the damage they take isn't as bad as whatever the consequences of not moving are (and then you'll get your procs).

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## Dalinar

Less a full build, more of a spell combo I'd like to highlight:




> When you move within 5 feet of a creature or an object that isnt being worn or carried, it takes 1d6 fire damage from your trail of heat.





> While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed.


It sure is a shame those two things don't appear on the same spell list, right?

Enter: 
*Spoiler*
Show



*The Lorerunner*

This character was likely some sort of courier who learned secrets and stories from across the land in the course of their deliveries.

Class: Lore Bard 6, into full caster levels of choice after*
Race: Tons of good choices here, but my first instinct is High Elf to get Booming Blade, which will serve you well later. You can also grab it with something like a Sorcerer dip or Magic Initiate if you prefer something else.
Equipment and stats aren't super important here. If you have a neat multiclass idea, make sure you have the stats for it, but otherwise just max CON and CHA like any typical CHA caster.
Useful feats: Metamagic Adept. Transmuted Spell will help you circumvent fire-resistant enemies with your combo. You'll want stuff like War Caster and Mounted Combatant to protect your combo once you get it.

Your goal from levels 1-5 is to survive and just be generally useful--nothing too unusual to note here. At level 6, you'll use your Additional Magical Secrets to pick up Ashardalon's Stride and Find Steed. At level 7, you can start upcasting Ashardalon's Stride to multiply the damage the combo does.

Warhorse has a speed of 60 feet. Ashardalon's Stride bumps that to 80. Cast it on you and your steed as a bonus action, dodge or Booming Blade with your action depending on how much danger you find yourself in. Deal 2d6=7 damage to basically every nearby target. Double that when you hit 7. Set things on fire. Sow chaos. Cackle maniacally. 

In single target fights, you won't get as much mileage out of Ashardalon's Stride, but Bards do get the new Kinetic Jaunt spell from Strixhaven (DM permitting, of course), so if you took that you can save your higher level spell slots and do sort of the same thing, diving in and out with Booming Blade.

*There is one other fun interaction with the Ashardalon's Stride spell I've recently been made aware of: like Sneak Attack, you can proc the damage offturn if you find a way to move with your reaction. Scout Rogue is the only way I'm familiar with, but if there are any others, let me know! Personally I think delaying full casting levels doesn't justify it offensively until relatively late, but it could be a good escape option nevertheless.

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## Wraith

> Glad to hear you're enjoying it!  You can actually find quite a few testimonials / stories about using the builds in games on here by now (including a few on just the last page of the thread)... it's just sort of scattered all over the place.  But it's always nice to see more =)


I knew they were there, that's what brought it to mind. I was thinking more like, one or two per build. All 120 of them. I realise that this is a tall order, but it's worth a shot  :Small Big Grin: 




> But really, you don't have to force them.  Just take advantage of them not moving, and you'll either benefit from that, or they'll decide that the damage they take isn't as bad as whatever the consequences of not moving are (and then you'll get your procs).


I get it, thank you.That makes a lot more sense, and I can see how I've been approaching it from the wrong angle.

Unfortunately I may have to call this a draw and not worry about it, by sheer coincidence the rest of the party is entirely unsuited to this sort of setup - there's two ranged artificers, a fighter with a rifle, a ranger with a longbow, and an Undead/Chain Warlock. Did I mention that my unarmoured human is tanking because I'm also the only melee-capable build? That may have been important. Still, it'll be fine until the point that it isn't, and when that happens I'll be too dead to worry about it  :Small Big Grin: 




> *There is one other fun interaction with the Ashardalon's Stride spell I've recently been made aware of: like Sneak Attack, you can proc the damage offturn if you find a way to move with your reaction. Scout Rogue is the only way I'm familiar with, but if there are any others, let me know! Personally I think delaying full casting levels doesn't justify it offensively until relatively late, but it could be a good escape option nevertheless.


Any class can use the Ready action to prep a Move, and then trigger it as a Reaction. Might not always be worth giving up your main action, but if you have a reliable way to function using only Bonus actions it might work. Not much springs to mind though, apart from just exclusively dispensing _Healing Words_ and _Bardic Inspiration_, but I suppose it could be done?

----------


## Evaar

> Unfortunately I may have to call this a draw and not worry about it, by sheer coincidence the rest of the party is entirely unsuited to this sort of setup - there's two ranged artificers, a fighter with a rifle, a ranger with a longbow, and an Undead/Chain Warlock.


So 3 characters who could be casting Create Bonfire, one who probably has Repelling Blast, one who could be casting Cloud of Daggers...

I see plenty of opportunity to abuse Booming Blade here. You might poke them and point that out.

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## BerzerkerUnit

This build can come on line as early as 3rd level but targets are generally limited to small/tiny creatures.  It's fully effective at level 5 and specialization agnostic at 6th.  There are some general equipment requirements readily met with gold and infusions.

Bring'em back alive bounty hunter build

Battlesmith Artificer 3
Skills: Athletics
Feat: Skill Expert-Athletics (not strictly necessary but certainly makes things easier)
Stats: I prefer an Int heavy build but can get by with a strength build if you prefer.
Equipment: 1 ft^3 Steel chest with lock. Bag of Holding and Armor of Magical Strength (infusions available @ 2nd)

Action: you grab a creature, you stuff it in the bag of holding, bonus action direct Steel Defender to put the bag in the chest and lock it.

This is definitely a YMMV build with your DM.  My reading of Bag of Holding doesn't seem to indicate a creature in the bag can get out on its own and the 10 minutes of breathing is also an indicator it can't just stick its head out.  The extradimensional nature of the bag's interior calls into question whether it can be cut, pierced, or torn from the inside. Assuming a creature can climb out on its own, it would find itself in a steel chest.  Unable to properly brace itself, bursting out of the chest might be altogether impossible and destroying the bag (perhaps by cutting it when you've stuck a hand out) could be a grotesque and deadly affair (depending of the construction of the chest).

At 5th level you get Enlarge/Reduce allowing you to shrink a target before starting the grapple, making it possible to fit even medium targets in the bag.
At 6th level you could take a Homunculus servant infusion and have it stuff the bag in the chest and lock it making it possible to be an Armorer etc.

If your DM does not approve of "instakill" shenanigans, I offer the following: most Teleport effects that result in a creature being dumped in a space they can't fit shunt them to the nearest available space and sometimes deal a few d10s of force damage for the trouble. At the least you'll have wasted that foes turn (turns).

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## ftafp

*The Heist Meister*

_Equipment is important. In a world where magic items are plentiful, there will never be a shortage of demand for items of great power, hence why many stores rise up to meet the demand. Of course, when these items come at such a high price, it's no surprise that there would be those who seek to steal them. The same magic that rewards a successful thief also guards those wares, but a successful thief is rarely one who cannot use magic themselves_

*Race:* Changeling
*Class:* Artificer 2/Abjurer X
*Base Stats:* 8 str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 17 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha
*ASIs:* Skill Expert (Deception, +1 Int)@6, +2 [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
*Spells of Note:* Friends, Guidance, Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Find Familiar, Invisibility, Knock, Locate Object, Misty Step, Rope Trick, Shatter, Suggestion, Dispel Magic, Phantom Steed, Counterspell, Dimension Door, Fabricate, Animate Objects, Disintegrate, Magnificent Mansion, Demiplane
*Infusions:* Bag of Holding
*Proficiencies:* Disguise Kit, Smith's Tools, Mason's Tools, Thieve's Tools, Deception, Perception, Investigation


*Cliff Notes:*
changeling, disguise self, disguise kit, and invisibility are all taken to provide multiple layers to protection against identification, both magical and non-magicalbag of holding makes it easy to store loot, and it being extradimensional means goods inside can't be located with magic. disguise self will let you make hide your bag while you're carrying it, so don't lose itfind familiar can be combined with misty step to teleport through walls. dismiss your familiar then have it reappear on the other side of the wall. see through its eyes and then misty step to clip past the wall. Dimension door later replaces thismage hand is just good for dealing with trapsthieve's tools combined with guidance and knock can be used to easily pick locks and disarm mechanical trapslocate object and phantom steed allow you to find places to rob. You can cover an entire city in a few hours with just a few castingsdetect and dispel magic allow you to check for magical traps and disarm them. as an abjurer you have a bonus to these checksdeception expertise is taken to cover for a poor Cha modifier. It can be used in place of performance when impersonating someone or persuasion when using Suggestion to probe marks information. In a pinch you can switch this out for expertise in perception to better avoid traps, or take observantfriends combined with disguises make it easy to pin the blame on someone elseshatter and fabricate can make it absurdly easy to break through walls or disassemble them into raw materials. Mason's tools makes these spells do double damage against structures, and combined with smith's tools you can disassemble anything, even adamantine For getting through magical force there's Disintegrate.rope trick, demiplane and magnificent mansion give you places to lay low after a robberyanimate objects is a good form of self-defense if your mark has both guards and protections against teleporation/interplanar travelcounterspell naturally is there to prevent others from counterspelling your escape plans

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## Dalinar

What if your very personality was a weapon?

*Spoiler: image is really big sorry*
Show



Awestriker

*tl;dr Conquest Paladin, Undead Warlock, and Glamour Bard with Dragon Fear*

Race: Fizban's Dragonborn of choice. I think Metallic makes the most sense mechanically with an extra control option at 5, and Gold matches the flavor pretty well. We're aiming to be downright majestic. Gem Flight also fits.
Stats: make sure you start with a 17 CHA (or better if you're rolling). We're in heavy armor, so grab 16 STR. Put most of the rest in CON.
Class split: Conquest 6/Undead 2/Glamour X, probably in that order. Notably we actually don't want Conquest 7, even though that ability is really good on paper.
Feats: the reason we don't want Conquest 7 is we're picking up Dragon Fear at 4. Things in the Conquest 7 aura take psychic damage every turn, which allows them all to repeat their saves against Dragon Fear. This also bumps our CHA to 18. We won't be getting another ASI until 12, at which point you'll want to max CHA, and another at 16, which I'd give to Alert since our initiative sucks.
Equipment: sword and board, and the best heavy armor you can get your hands on.

Progression:

From 1-6, we're a pretty bog standard control Paladin. Every level after the first gets you something delicious: take Defense for your fighting style to be hard to kill and your favorite first-level Paladin spells. 3 gets us our first fear bomb with the Channel Divinity, as well as two of my personal favorite spells, Command and Armor of Agathys. 4 gives us more fear bombs and a CHA bump via Dragon Fear. 5 gives us Extra Attack, which is definitely nice to have although this is not a damage-focused build, as well as access to 2nd-level paladin spells. 6 gives us and our nearby buddies amazing saves.

I explained above why we're not taking Conquest 7 and jumping right to Undead 1. I think that when Undead Warlock came out, everyone and their mother noted the synergy with Conquest Paladin, and this build leans into it even more. A short-rest spell slot gives us some much needed rest flexibility, and we'll get access to the Cause Fear spell for yet another source of the frightened condition on top of Form of Dread. I think the second level of Warlock is probably worth it as well; grab Agonizing Blast if you're worried about a lack of damage, or just pick your favorite invocations. I'm less sure about Undead 3+; there are some neat non-frightened control spells there, such as Crown of Madness and Suggestion, as well as Invisibility and Misty Step. However, I don't want to delay our third class for too long, and we can pick up most of those in a few levels anyway.

At this point we are Conquest 6/Undead 2. Sorcerer seems like the obvious pairing for a Paladin/Warlock looking to branch out further, but I think Glamour Bard fits the character we're going for way more than anything Sorcerer can offer. Admittedly, Bard 1 is not a very powerful level for us on its own, although Dissonant Whispers is likely a nice spell pickup, as is Silvery Barbs if your table allows Strixhaven content. However, our proficiency bonus increases to 4. 

Let's take stock of what we have now: we have an AOE fear on a short rest, another four AOE fears on a long rest (and thanks to the wording of Fizban's breath weapon, we can use them alongside Extra Attack to deal a little damage), four uses of Form of Dread per long rest for more fear spam, and two short-rest spell slots which will probably be spent on Command, Cause Fear, Dissonant Whispers, or Silvery Barbs if I had to guess. In addition to that we have the equivalent long rest spell slots of a fourth-level caster, and we'll spend the rest of our career improving that. Sure, we don't get any actual third-level or higher spells known for a while, but Armor of Agathys, Cause Fear, and Command in particular all upcast excellently, so don't think you won't have any use for those slots!

Bard 2 gets us third-level spell slots as well as some utility that we aren't too worried about. Bard 3 gets us our sublcass, the College of Glamour, which has some pretty wild applications I overlooked for a long time. As a bonus action, you can spend Bardic Inspiration (of which you have four right now, soon to be five) to let your allies move with their reaction without provoking opportunity attacks as well as grant them temp HP. Provided you can target yourself with the ability (I don't see why not, but it's not explicitly stated), this is an excellent way to get into position to use your AOE fears. We also get Enthralling Performance, which is a cool out of combat utility that basically makes people your fans. Love it! We also get access to second-level Bard spells. 

Bard 4 lets us finally cap our Charisma, giving us another Bardic Inspiration, the best possible spell save DC, and better saving throws due to being a sixth-level Paladin. Bard 5 makes those Bardic dice come back on a short rest and also gives us access to third-level spells (we are an 8th-level caster by this point). Our proficiency bonus is now 5, giving us yet another Dragon Fear and Form of Dread use.

The last level I particularly want to highlight is Glamour 6. Once per long rest, we can concentrate on an ability called Mantle of Majesty, which lets us cast Command as a bonus action for a full minute. The action economy here is rather incredible, since many of your best control actions aren't actually leveled spells (Dragon Fear, Channel Divinity, Form of Dread). This lets you double up on things that waste or at least limit actions for your enemies! IMO this is basically the height of our relative power. 

At this point we are Conquest 6/Undead 2/Glamour 6, total character level 14. We have, without resting or spending our fairly deep spell resources: six AOE fears, five Form of Dread uses, one Mantle of Majesty use, five Bardic Inspiration which can be used for Mantle of Inspiration, and possibly some at-will spells depending on which invocations you took back at level 8. We have the equivalent spell slots of a ninth level caster as well as two first level Pact Magic slots. We have third-level spells known thanks to our Bard levels, and plenty of the best upcasting options for using those fourth- and fifth-level slots even if we don't actually know spells of that level.

From here, I'd just continue taking Bard levels. I don't see much reason to branch out further; higher level spells known and spell slots will be more valuable than anything you can get from a fourth class here.

And that's all I've got!

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## XmonkTad

> Less a full build, more of a spell combo I'd like to highlight:
> 
> *The Lorerunner*


Fantastic combo. A Sorcadin could eventually get this as well, and would have some of the most useful features built in (booming blade, transmute spell) but having it as a single class is fantastic. Find Steed has always been a great pick for magical secrets, and this makes it even better!
As for movement as a reaction, Shifter (Swiftstride) can do it if you're allowed some Eberron stuff, but it is only 10 feet of movement.

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## Syjyl4488

Can someone build an example of a psi warrior? Thinking about retraining my subclass at 7th lvl, and Id like to have some insight as to how to build him

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## Dalinar

> Can someone build an example of a psi warrior? Thinking about retraining my subclass at 7th lvl, and Id like to have some insight as to how to build him


I'm assuming we're talking straight Psi Warrior 7 with no multiclassing shenanigans? Also, what race?

Some thoughts:

A lot of your stuff scales with INT. Your Protective Field will block more damage, your Psionic Strike will deal more damage, and your Telekinetic Thrust save DC goes up, in addition to some features you'll get later. On the other hand, you still want a reasonable STR or DEX score to be able to actually hit your attacks, and of course you'll want some CON as well.Pros of going STR: if you plan on grappling or shoving enemies often, you'll be good at Athletics; you'll be able to take advantage of feats like Great Weapon Master and/or Polearm Master; you'll be able to use heavy armor, which will eventually result in a little more AC than medium armor can afford you.Pros of going DEX: you'll be better at important skills like Stealth; you'll be much better at ranged combat than a STR-based fighter, and be able to get feats like Sharpshooter and/or Crossbow Expert; you'll be in medium armor, which won't necessarily impose disadvantage on Stealth checks depending on which ones you pick up.For completion's sake, I'll mention that you could also short-circuit that decision by taking three Artificer levels for Battle Smith or Armorer's ability to attack with INT, but I don't think that's worth it, especially at your level range (you'd lose Extra Attack!)If you're interested in thrown weapons, I'd point to the lowly dart, which is the only ranged weapon with the thrown property, making it usable with Archery, Thrown Weapon Fighting, and Sharpshooter all at once, which is pretty neat, though I don't know how interested you are in going that route.

So what stats to prioritize? What feats to pick up, if any?

For a damage-focused fighter, I think either Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master is very worth it; they're probably the two best damage feats in the game. If you're interested in a more control-based fighter, you could try PAM, Sentinel, Telekinetic (INT bump!), and stuff like that instead. Which route you ultimately want to choose depends on your party and preferred playstyle, which I of course do not know.

I'm going to suggest a build around GWM, and here's why: you are already level 7, which means you have access to Telekinetic Thrust to knock people prone without taking an action, thus giving you advantage if you're within 5 feet of them. Because of that 5ft limitation, and because we want more stats than your typical fighter, I'd suggest avoiding Polearm Master. I'm going to go VHuman for this, since I don't know your race, but you can approximate this with basically any race. I'll also assume point buy, but if you have a weird stat distribution, you may wish to shuffle in some half-feats to make the numbers pretty.

Oh, and we have to give it a cool name. I guess I'll go with a pun on your username? Eh, it's your call.

So at this point here's what we've got:

---

The Psigil Pswordsman
sorry, no picture this time :(

VHuman Psi Warrior 7
Base Stats: 16 STR, 16 INT, 14 CON, rest to taste
Skills: any
Feats: GWM @1, +2 STR @4, +2STR @6
Equipment: despite the name, any GWM-compatible weapon is fine; also grab the best heavy armor you can find
Fighting Style: since Great Weapon Fighting isn't a huge damage boost, you might want Defense, Interception, or even Blind Fighting. Your call.

Your gameplan is simple, yet effective: use Great Weapon Master to chunk things. You have as much accuracy as you're ever going to get with it because you're already at 20 STR (proficiency bonus and better weaponry notwithstanding). If you encounter something beefy enough to survive more than a hit or two of that, spend your Psionic dice on Psionic Strike/Telekinetic Thrust to knock it prone, then swing with advantage. (Be careful about doing this if you have ranged attackers in the party, of course!)

---

Progressing from here, you can squeeze a little more damage out of your subclass by bumping your INT so your Psionic Strikes hit a little harder. Rather than go straight for +2 INT, however, I think picking up Telekinetic is both flavorful and strong at 8. Combine it with Crusher at 12 (swapping to a maul for your weapon) and the 10ft shove option from Telekinetic Thrust, and you can get a nice little positional control game going, which can help set up AOEs for the party casters. Since those are both half-feats, you can then bump both INT and CON at 14, cap INT at 16, and probably grab something like Resilient (Wisdom) or Alert or Lucky or just another CON bump at 19.

Will it win you an award for the most creative build out there? No, but you'll be able to play a character who combines incredible strength of arms with a mind to match, and really, that's what we're here for, isn't it?

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## Syjyl4488

Right now Im a dwarven ek with the following stats. Str 18, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 8. I also have a moontouched great sword, heavy armor master feat, and I plan on picking up a headband of intellect before 7th lvl (I can buy one once I have the gp), I also plan on picking up the asi to boost con & wis at 6th, and gwm at 8th (currently 5th lvl), was thinking about mobile, slasher, and squat nimbleness to boost speed and max str and cool debuff with sword strikes. Final feat would probably be alert

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## Dalinar

I suppose at that point it depends on how thoroughly your DM lets you respec, i.e. whether you also get to change out your feats or rearrange your stats.

EDIT: (I forgot you're getting a headband of intellect soon. My advice might not be accurate LOL)

A low-INT Psi Warrior is going to be a struggle, I think. What draws you to that subclass specifically? If it's the damage reduction (to stack with Heavy Armor Master), maybe see if you can find a way to gain damage resistance (unfortunately Barbarians don't benefit from rage while heavily armored or that would be a nice dip), or consider the Interception fighting style to help reduce damage directed at your allies. If it's general versatility, maybe take a look at Battle Master, and flavor it as magically/psionically enhanced attacks. Or as an alternative way of thinking about it, what leaves you dissatisfied with Eldritch Knight such that you're interested in respeccing out of it?

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## Syjyl4488

I like the ability to protect my allieselks are harder to kill true, but most of my spells are concentration buffs/debuffs, and since I can only have one up at a time its a lot to micromanagethe headband was always the plan (Im part of bright-dawn on discord, and while we were low magic to start, we accumulate 2 weeks dtd for ever irl week, and have a lot of crafters so i didnt see a need to put anything into int). I always wanted to play an ek, but it doesnt have much synergy with its class features until higher lvls (imo lol). We get 30 pt buy but stats are capped at 15 before modifiers, so I boosted all my physical stats to respectable levels first.

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## Kessel

New campaign starting up and Im running with an Arcana Cleric. The DM is allowing the new versions of races from Monsters of the Multiverse, and while Drow isnt in there, Im allowed to play one with the new rules of no sunlight sensitivity and innate spells can be cast with slots.

I lose the Variant Human feat to start, but Drow starts with a Rapier which plays nicely with the DEX build  and possibly eliminates the need for Magic Initiate and Shillelagh? (Though I would miss thorn whip.) I figure that frees up a feat spot that I could put towards Elven Accuracy or Eldritch Adept (Devils Sight  Drow gets Darkness.) 

I couldnt do Darkness at the same time as Spirit Guardians but its always a plus to have more options in the toolkit.

Are there any glaring errors with this concept? Or a better combination to play with?

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## Ganryu

Trivia question: What class is the best archer, tier 2-3?
You're wrong, it's the monk! 

The Kensei Sniper
"I'd worry about enemies... if I thought they could reach me."


*Summary:* 
Alright, we're going to be abusing just one rule from Tasha's, an optional class feature. 

Ki-Fueled Attack (Optional)
_Also at 3rd level, if you spend 1 ki point or more as part of your action on your turn, you can make one attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon as a bonus action before the end of the turn._

Hey, uh... you know how Kensei can turn something into both a kensei weapon, and a monk weapon...? Long bow is on that list. We get three long bow attacks a turn. That's insane. Fighter doesn't get that til level 11. Now, fighter has a few nice tools we can dip to steal, but, well, they honestly are not needed. You can go pure monk on this build, and hardly suffer for it.  You'll notice I claimed though that this is the best archer in tier 3 though, despite fighters matching the hits per turn. And that's due to all the little trinkets monk get.  Number one.... They.do.not.miss. 


Race: Custom Lineage +2 Dex, Sharpshooter feat 
Stats:  
STR 10
DEX 15 (+2)
CON 15
INT 8 
WIS 14
CHA 8 

Lvl 1: Nothing here really contributes to the build, you could try your luck with regular crossbows at this level if you want to user sharpshooter, but it's really not online yet.
Lvl 2: Still regular monk. At least you move faster. 
Lvl 3: We get two goodies this levels! Yay! Sadly, we're still MOSTLY just a monk, but we get to be a kensei, meaning we become proficient in long bow. You CAN user Kensei's shot for the next 3 levels, but it's... just kinda bad. 


Kensei's Shot. You can use a bonus action on your turn to make your ranged attacks with a kensei weapon more deadly. When you do so, any target you hit with a ranged attack using a kensei weapon takes an extra 1d4 damage of the weapons type. You retain this benefit until the end of the current turn.

Lvl 4: Increase Con and Dex. We really aren't going to ever use wisdom in this build. Stunning strike is good and all, but have you tried murder? It's a really good problem solver.  

Lvl 5: Extra attack. Yay! Blasphemy, but forget about stunning strike on this build. What we want is a trash ability from Tasha's that no one else would use: 


Focused Aim: 
Also at 5th level, when you miss with an attack roll, you can spend 1 to 3 ki points to increase your attack roll by 2 for each of these ki points you spend, potentially turning the miss into a hit.
On level 5 only, even if it would not turn a miss to a hit, use it. You have now used ki on your turn, activating the requirement for Ki Fueled attack. You may fire again as a bonus action. Use instead of deft strike below, if you know the enemies AC, and know it will turn a miss into a hit. Otherwise, don't.

Lvl 6: We are now online! You will deal, if everything hits, 3d8+1d6+42 damage. Every turn for your monk level. Granted, with accuracy drop, that's a big if at this level. We do not have our accuracy boosters, so it's a lot of prayer for these to hit. Kensei monk can still miss at this point. But we get the ability that makes this work: 


_Deft Strike._ When you hit a target with a kensei weapon, you can spend 1 ki point to cause the weapon to deal extra damage to the target equal to your Martial Arts die. You can use this feature only once on each of your turns. 

Lvl 7 :
Alright, this is the first level we have a decision to make. Do you want fighter levels? They are good, but not necessarily awesome. 

Fighter Route: 

------------------
If you do want them, start here, take 3 levels to get battle master. The important things you get are: Archery Fighting Style, Action Surge, and the battle maneuvers. 
Of the battle maneuvers, you get: 

Goading: No one is going to be within 100 feet of you(And if they are, you are a monk... so you can just leave), so this means a monster plain has disadvantage on every attack. 

Menacing Attack: You know how you are reaaaally far away from anything you wish to unalive? Well, if your party is near you, now an enemy just can't get close... or, combing it with Pushing attack to get an enemy off an ally. 

Pushing Attack: See above. 

Precision Attack: You only have a few superiority die, but why not use them to make sure you further do not miss? 
--------------------

Otherwise, we continue and get Evasion. Your DM pissed enough to send a dragon after you? That is no longer an issue! 

Lvl 8: If you are not a fighter, can grab archery fighting style here through the fighting initiate feat. If you are not, grab +2 Dex, max it out. 

Lvl 9: Nothing really but being more annoying to our DM. You can now climb vertically... so start vertically climbing cliffs and reigning down more arrows with enemies unable to get up to. Granted, at this point, you're DM will probably declare all of them are slippery and have no holds for you to hang off of, but meh. 

Lvl 10: Purity of Body: A heavy price must be paid for our build... alas, we can no longer get drunk. Bright side, we can't get STDs either. 

Lvl 11: This is as important a level as lvl 6 for us. You know how I mentioned we don't miss? 
*Sharpen the Blade*_At 11th level, you gain the ability to augment your weapons further with your ki. As a bonus action, you can expend up to 3 ki points to grant one kensei weapon you touch a bonus to attack and damage rolls when you attack with it. The bonus equals the number of ki points you spent. This bonus lasts for 1 minute or until you use this feature again. This feature has no effect on a magic weapon that already has a bonus to attack and damage rolls._

I don't know about you, but I rarely get +3 weapons in my games. Throw that trashy +1 weapon your DM gave you away, you got this even better now. So, either way of having fighter or not, you have Archery Style, +3 from this feature, making it a +5 to hit. You have completely negated Sharpshooter's negative effect. Also, slight buff to damage.  You're dealing 3d10+1d8+51-54 per turn. Fairly consistently. 


Lvl 12: If you went fighter, Grab tough here. Cap of Dex otherwise. We're... really not using Wisdom on this build. We're so far away from fights most hits won't hit us, and if they do, well, not +1 AC at this level is going to matter. More health, though, definitely will. 

Lvl 13: Ribbon Ability, you now speak all languages.

Lvl 14: Diamond Soul, Okay, due to the range distance, this might not come up too often, but if it does, it's awesome. You are proficient in all saves. Even if a DM is trying to hunt you down, there'll be some problem with that. 

Lvl 15: TImeless Body: Congrats, you can now play an ancient loli if you're one of those people. Ribbon. 

Lvl 16: Tough or +2 Con. 

Lvl 17: You.Do.Not.Miss. 
*Unerring Accuracy*_At 17th level, your mastery of weapons grants you extraordinary accuracy. If you miss with an attack roll using a monk weapon on your turn, you can reroll it. You can use this feature only once on each of your turns._
------------

If you didn't go fighter: 
Lvl 18 - We're giving up Action Surge, Delayed stats, and Maneuvers for this... but it might actually be worth it.  The problem is, most of the above run out with a few uses. 

*Empty Body*_Beginning at 18th level, you can use your action to spend 4 ki points to become invisible for 1 minute. During that time, you also have resistance to all damage but force damage._
 Being invisible means you have advantage on most creatures. If they have true sight, even, most of the time, that's up to a range, a range you are far beyond. So, you have advantage, +5 to hit, additional +3 you can burn, and can reroll a miss per turn. Your average accuracy, with sharpshooter, is still above 30. This is where you excel where the fighter does not, you have so many accuracy buffs that are persistent, or last all combat. You are not flurrying of blowing, or stunning strike, so you have all your ki points intact. You might occasionally step of the wind for range, or add accuracy to a blow, but every round, you can spend it on Deft strike. 

Lvl 19 - Max out con if not maxed. Otherwise, I'm not sure we're accurate enough, why not get lucky and really double down on not missing? 

Lvl 20 - Not the best feat, but we might be ki-lite, but we still need it. This gives us, at minimum, four rounds of 4d10+54 damage. Fighter sadly gets another attack this level, meaning they can... compete with us. :D But we will never miss a shot!

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## Psyren

> Trivia question: What class is the best archer, tier 2-3?
> You're wrong, it's the monk! 
> 
> The Kensei Sniper


I had a thread about this very build  :Small Smile:  The consensus was to power through monk to 8 for the combo + ASI, grab Fighter 2 for Archery Style, then back to monk for Sharpen the Blade and Diamond Soul. The final four levels are up in the air; I chose more Fighter for 2 more ASIs but Ranger 4 could fit well too.

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## Veon

Hello everyone! Im new to this thread, and have generally only been a lurker on the forum. Lately Ive been super into wanting to play a fighter, and at the same time wanting to play a character with guns, so i thought why not both?
Now, having cycled through the builds in the pinned post I was immediately drawn to the Samurai archer variant that utilizes Gunner (especially Muskets), which is totally where I was going with my own build. The post also makes a super detailed analysis on a comparison between Samurai and Battle Master, which is my main doubt in how to build this character. Now, aside from the DPR analysis, I was wondering, to those of you who might have played both a ranged Samurai and ranged Battle Master, how is the in play feeling, both in and out of combat? Because the Samurai seems to me like a very good one trick pony, while the Battle Master seems to have generally more tricks, but also ways to auto-generate advantage (if I'm not mistaken). However the Samurai generally seems to have more out of combat RP options. 
Thanks for any possible input and build advice!

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## RingoBongo

Here's a cool variant to the ludic's arcana cleric with the booming blade shillelagh attacks. This one is more about damage and control because of the powerhouse tempest cleric spell list. Been playing around in home game and reconsidered a few things this time around before posting.

So... It's a variant human swarmkeeper ranger 4 / tempest cleric X

Starting stats: 
STR: 8
DEX: 14
CON: 15
INT: 10
WIS: 16
CHA: 10

If you want to use heavy armor you can reprioritize the ability scores, but I prefer Dex, only for initiative. Also, I recommend picking up a background with acrobatics just to have decent grapple escape ability, but not super necessary. One idea is to take athlete background and you also get land vehicles proficiency -- hello mounted combat? Not sure how that works never really tried it.

Feats/ASI -- in general order
1. Starting: Aberrant Dragon Mark (booming blade + Shield) OR Warcaster.
2. +2 wis
3. Whatever you didn't choose to start with
4. PAM 

 If you get some say in magic items: eldritch staff, amulet of the devout, sentinel shield are prime Attunement slot ideas. No night vision though so probably want some goggles or search for dark vision elsewhere.

Cleric is powerful, and pretty straightforward. The only choices you have are cantrips; I recommend: toll of dead, sacred flame, guidance, resistance. Tempest is an obvious choice because so much synergy and powerful spell list. But a variant could be in arcana -- I've considered it but feel this is ultimately cooler/better and generally more awesome.

Now you might be saying... RANGER? really? Well... We get a few nice things by taking this route and delaying spellcasting progression only a little bit... (Also personally, I do not prefer most cleric spells above level 6 spells)... 

Level 1: start as ranger for the saves, HP...

Level 2: Ranger fighting style: druidic -- snag shillelagh and (thorn whip?)

Level 3: Swarmkeeper perks -- a choice of 1 of 3 options when you hit with an attack on your turn.
1. a high dc 15ft pushback (or to the side/behind you) on booming blade. If you get yourself an eldritch staff you synergize lightning damage from a charge of the staff with tempest cleric lvl 6 feature (10 ft pushback)... For a total of 25 feet push back on your turn. That's fun and nasty. Also eldritch staff charge could be used on a PAM reaction attack for a pushback on that attack as well.
2.  plus 1d6 piercing damage (slap on favored foe 1d4 and maybe even a zypher strike +1d8 for maximum effect)
3. Push an ally out of range for a free disengage.

Flavor Note: reflavor the swarm to a "barrage of kinetic force" for the push with a booming blade attack, a "gust of wind" for the Ally push, and "cruel vibrations" for the extra damage to be on point with booming blade attack / tempest flavor.

Level 4: feat.  And rounding out spell slot progression.

Ranger spells known: absorb elements, faerie fire, entangle, zypher strike (or drop entangle and pick something else). I use zypher strike fairly frequently now that I am higher level -- good opener if surprised.

Overall, worth some fun fun features and spells. That synergize with build centered around feats that create a QUARTERSTAFF and shield welding monster/ controller. While also being a potent spellcaster. Very versatile, and a prepared spellcaster as well -- Uber versatility.

TDLR; 

Tempest is a nasty force on the battle field and will definitely cause monsters to concentrate on you. Use spirit guardians and PAM reaction booming blade attack when they do. The cool part is you are continuing to be a potent source of extra battle field control by just your presence holding a quarterstaff in good position on the map. That's extra control outside of something you might also be concentrating on 

At level 12 / 13 your are a more than competent spellcaster with 8/9 levels in tempest cleric and have a good number of higher level spells that definitely put the hurt on. You are also a melee force to be reckoned with. Did I mention how much of a POWERHOUSE the tempest cleric spell list is? 

Yeah so, new favorite build. Good battlefield spells, decent amount of them, good control through spells and melee cantrip attack / reaction, decent AC (half-plate+ shield = 19 AC (plus 1 use of shield spell per short rest), access to absorb elements to enhance defenses further.

Level progression: I'd go either straight to ranger 4 before cleric stuff, or i'd go ranger 1/2, cleric 5, ranger 4, cleric X. The capstone of this build is right on par with when most campaigns end, and at level 12/13 the build completes with the shillelagh staff/booming blade/warcaster/ PAM tricks and finally has access to the higher level spells (up to 5th level) as well as a handful of slots to cast those higher level spells.

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## Bardon

> Trivia question: What class is the best archer, tier 2-3?
> You're wrong, it's the monk! 
> 
> The Kensei Sniper
> "I'd worry about enemies... if I thought they could reach me."
> 
> 
> *Summary:* 
> Alright, we're going to be abusing just one rule from Tasha's, an optional class feature. 
> ...


Sorry, but I'm kinda confused.  Could you please explain how you got these numbers for level 6?

"Lvl 6: We are now online! You will deal, if everything hits, 3d10+1d6+42 damage. "

Monk weapon attacks don't get to 1d10 until 17th level and a longbow is 1d8 and how the +42 is put together just doesn't seem to add up to me - clearly I've missed something! :)

Thanks.

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## Lavaeolus

> Now, aside from the DPR analysis, I was wondering, to those of you who might have played both a ranged Samurai and ranged Battle Master, how is the in play feeling, both in and out of combat? Because the Samurai seems to me like a very good one trick pony, while the Battle Master seems to have generally more tricks, but also ways to auto-generate advantage (if I'm not mistaken). However the Samurai generally seems to have more out of combat RP options.


I should warn that I don't have much experience with the Samurai in play, so others might be able to talk more about how it feels in and out of combat. If you're interested in some extra out-of-combat options to even the field a bit, though, I will note _Tasha's_ added some new BM maneuvers that allow you to add your superiority die to certain checks. (Ambush can boost Stealth checks; Commanding Presence can boost Persuasion, Intimidation and Performance; etc.)

Of course, since they're maneuvers these are limited by a resource, come with some opportunity cost, and can be swingy. Nice things about Samurai's extra proficiency and Elegant Courtier feature are that they're always-on, don't come at the price of any combat options, and most campaigns with a social element will reward decent Wisdom and good Persuasion checks.

I will say that in my groups, combat hasn't tended to be a _complete_ end to RP. There's a bit of bleed-through and I usually let some maneuvers inform characterisation. If your bowman has both the Archery FS and Precision Attack -- well, of course they consider themself quite the sharpshooter. I had a Fighter/Rogue investigator who, though a melee character, liked to 'outwit' enemies and subdue them with minimal harm to himself -- so of course he picked up Disarming Attack. A character who picks up Menacing Attack might start with Intimidation proficiency. Etc.

So your choice of maneuvers can affect game-feel a bit. Obviously there's a balance there, and I don't mean to overplay it. I feel like both subclasses don't give you too many explicit non-combat features to work with, so a lot of your non-combat time might come down to how creative you are with applying your skill proficiencies (and just generally RPing). And if you get any non-combat-focused feats, naturally.

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## PrinceOfMadness

> Sorry, but I'm kinda confused.  Could you please explain how you got these numbers for level 6?
> 
> "Lvl 6: We are now online! You will deal, if everything hits, 3d10+1d6+42 damage. "
> 
> Monk weapon attacks don't get to 1d10 until 17th level and a longbow is 1d8 and how the +42 is put together just doesn't seem to add up to me - clearly I've missed something! :)
> 
> Thanks.


The +42 comes from using the Sharpshooter Feat (from Custom Lineage) to add +10 to your damage rolls at the cost of -5 to hit and an 18 Dex (15 from point buy + 2 from Custom Lineage + 1 from the 4th level ASI) on 3 attacks.  14 * 3 = 42.

The +1D6 comes from spending a ki point for Deft Strike, which also nets you the third attack needed for the number above.

Admittedly, I don't understand where the 3d10 is coming from either - unless I've also missed something, longbows should be dealing 1d8 - but it doesn't hugely impact the build's burst potential if you can reasonably hit with all three attacks given the -5 Sharpshooter penalty.

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## Ganryu

Where the 1d10 comes from is easy. It comes from me being an idiot. Whoops. It's 1d8, I just mixed up longbow and crowbow. I'll fix that. Thank you. Rest of the numbers got explained though.

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## Amechra

With the new versions of races from MotM, I'm doing a little noodlin' about...

The Werebeast

*What Is The Build?* _Wildhunt Shifter_ Monk with the _Way of the Astral Self_.

*Why Would You Do Such A Thing?* When _Arms of the Astral Self_ is active, grappling and shoving is a Wisdom (Athletics) check. Shifting as a Wildhunt Shifter gives you advantage on all Wisdom checks. Long story short? You're a Monk who is _really_ good at wrasslin' when it comes up.

*Why Isn't This An In-Depth, Fully Analyzed Build Yet?* I'm lazy. More seriously, I haven't had a chance to test it out yet, and my home group is pretty bad at character building.

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## ftafp

> With the new versions of races from MotM, I'm doing a little noodlin' about...
> 
> The Werebeast
> 
> *What Is The Build?* _Wildhunt Shifter_ Monk with the _Way of the Astral Self_.
> 
> *Why Would You Do Such A Thing?* When _Arms of the Astral Self_ is active, grappling and shoving is a Wisdom (Athletics) check. Shifting as a Wildhunt Shifter gives you advantage on all Wisdom checks. Long story short? You're a Monk who is _really_ good at wrasslin' when it comes up.
> 
> *Why Isn't This An In-Depth, Fully Analyzed Build Yet?* I'm lazy. More seriously, I haven't had a chance to test it out yet, and my home group is pretty bad at character building.


ooh, cool combo. You could also do Circle of the Starspawn, be a star druid/astral self who can't roll a grapple check below a 10. With PB, wis and maybe expertise in athletics from a racial feat you could make it so your grapple attempts you make with your 10-foot-long tentacles can't roll below a 20

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## Amechra

That could be _hilarious_, yeah. Of course, the question is _when_ you should multiclass...

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## Gurgeh

Wild Shape uses will never increase unless you single-class all the way to 20, so if you want to put your primary focus on being a squiggly star monster then stick to the minimum two Druid levels you need to get the combo; probably branch out into the multiclass at sixth level once you have Extra Attack, but if you really wanted you could go for it as your fourth and fifth levels (your offense will take a while to pick up this way, but you'll get the staggeringly good grapples online sooner). Take Skill Expert for Athletics expertise at your first ASI and go from there.

EDIT: RAW, I'm not sure the spectral arms can be used to or shove or grapple, only to make unarmed strikes (though while they're up you _do_ get to use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Strength for grapples). Most DMs would probably be fine with this, though.

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## ftafp

> That could be _hilarious_, yeah. Of course, the question is _when_ you should multiclass...


I would assume you switch after 5. Once you have extra attack and stunning strike you really don't have any reason to stay monk. any earlier and you're going to regret it

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## RogueJK

> stick to the minimum two Druid levels you need to get the combo; probably branch out into the multiclass at sixth level once you have Extra Attack


That's how I'd do it.  Something like a Variant Human going Astral Self Monk 5 (or 6) > Stars Druid 2 > Monk X with
STR 10
DEX 15+1
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 15+1
CHA 8

Picking up Skill Expert for another +1 WIS and Athletics Expertise at Level 1, then Fey Touched for another +1 WIS, Misty Step, and Hex at Monk 4, and then +2 WIS at Monk 8.

Hex from Fey Touched not only gets you added damage to all your numerous attacks per round (up to +4d6 when you Flurry), but also lets you impose Disadvantage on your target's opposed Grapple checks.  And you'll have Druid spell slots, so you can recast it as needed throughout the day.

In addition to the Dragon Form for guaranteed 10+ on your grappling checks, the Stars Druid dip also gets you WIS-based ranged damage cantrip(s) and daily Guiding Bolts, both of which will help with the Astral Self Monk's ranged attack issue.  (They're WIS-SAD, except for when it comes to ranged attacks, in which case they normally would have to rely on the DEX-based Shortbow.)




> Once you have extra attack and stunning strike you really don't have any reason to stay monk.


Sure you do.  You'll only have 5 Ki points if you abandon Monk at Level 5, and you'll start to burn through those quickly at higher levels, considering it costs 1 Ki every time you summon your Astral Arms, and 1 more Ki every time your attempt a Stun, not to mention all your other Ki-related abilities like Flurry, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind.

You'd get a lot more out of more Monk levels (in both Ki and other abilities) than you would out of more Druid levels.

You'll especially want Monk 6 sooner rather than later, for Ki-Empowered Strikes to make your astral arms' attacks magical.  Your astral arms can't wield weapons, and you start running into enemies that are resistant/immune to non-magical attacks starting in mid-Tier 2.

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## Gurgeh

Mm, if you just wanted to be a Druid who's very good at grappling then you can probably get more mileage from joining the Circle of the Moon and shifting into a giant octopus or the like.

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## Daesarnara

Hi,

Recently I picked D&D back up after 20 years and I got my kids interested. I've been running some one shots with them and they love it.  Their characters are based on Jedi from Star Wars. Right now they are level 2 a fighter and a wizard, we also have a paladin with a expert sidekick. I saw the Celestial Generalist build on the first page and thought that would be a good way to cover any gaps we have in the party. @LudicSavant I notice it only went up to 12, I was wondering if you ever fleshed out the original build.  I know the customization options are wide open post 12, however, since I'm doing mind map experiments to get a better understanding, so I can DM. If you did, how did you finish it?

I'm currently treating it as an NPC as I DM to aid and assist them as I teach them the game. So it's great to just use it as a template. Thanks in advance for taking the time to respond.

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## TotallyNotEvil

Given the new races with two spells known and some other nifty abilities, I wonder if there aren't some builds that couldn't be updated. Say, the Wood Elf Commando for a Shadar Kai or Eladrin?

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## Evaar

> Given the new races with two spells known and some other nifty abilities, I wonder if there aren't some builds that couldn't be updated. Say, the Wood Elf Commando for a Shadar Kai or Eladrin?


I was thinking there's a tweaked version of the Demonweb Monk that uses Bugbear, but I'm not exactly sure what the balance would be. The off-turn attacks are potentially less valuable so maybe it doesn't go for Fighter 3, instead stopping once it has Action Surge. But being sneaky and using Darkness/Blind Fighting to try for a surprise round getting 10 attacks before the enemy acts (extra attack, flurry, action surge, extra attack, flurry), each with +2d6 damage, seems possibly worth exploring.

Not to mention it plays well with the semi-new theme of Bugbears being the monster that goes bump in the dark.

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## Gurgeh

Action Surge only gives you an extra action, not a whole turn - so you can only Flurry once in that example. Still very strong.

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## Evaar

> Action Surge only gives you an extra action, not a whole turn - so you can only Flurry once in that example. Still very strong.


This is across two turns, presuming you get a surprise round. Should've made that clearer, it's Extra Attack>Flurry>Action Surge Attacks, end of round, presuming you won initiative (which won't always be true but hopefully you beat SOMETHING), Extra Attack>Flurry.

This also comes along with all the fraught presumptions that go along with a surprise round. A lot of time you just won't get a chance to have one. But where it's possible, you should be pretty good at getting it.

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## LudicSavant

> Hi,
> 
> Recently I picked D&D back up after 20 years and I got my kids interested. I've been running some one shots with them and they love it.  Their characters are based on Jedi from Star Wars. Right now they are level 2 a fighter and a wizard, we also have a paladin with a expert sidekick. I saw the Celestial Generalist build on the first page and thought that would be a good way to cover any gaps we have in the party. @LudicSavant I notice it only went up to 12, I was wondering if you ever fleshed out the original build.  I know the customization options are wide open post 12, however, since I'm doing mind map experiments to get a better understanding, so I can DM. If you did, how did you finish it?
> 
> I'm currently treating it as an NPC as I DM to aid and assist them as I teach them the game. So it's great to just use it as a template. Thanks in advance for taking the time to respond.


Hey Daesarnara!  

I've got a full 20-level Giftlock writeup here:  https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...postcount=1095

Though that's a bit different from the original, straight-classed Tomelock.  

So how would I extend a straight-class Tomelock to 20th?

Over the last 8 levels, we'll have to choose 2 feats, 2 invocations, 4 spells known, and your mystic arcanums.  You'll also pick up the great Searing Vengeance ability at 14th.  And your lovely capstone (Four more 5th level spell slots a day, who doesn't want that?)

Now, there are a _lot_ of good choices we could take here.  So this will just be one example of one possible useful path you could take.

*Mystic Arcanums:*
Since you'll only have 1 spell choice, you wanna make sure the spells you pick for Mystic Arcanums are things you'll want to use basically every day.

For our level 7 Mystic Arcanum, it's tough to go wrong with *Forcecage*.

For our level 8 Mystic Arcanum, we'll take *Glibness* to solidify the Celestial Generalist's role as a fantastic party face / infiltrator / etc.  It also happens to boost Counterspell checks, though that's not the main reason we take it.  It makes your important Charisma checks basically guaranteed instead of a gamble, and  thwarts pesky magic that can see through your deception -- magic that you should expect to be more and more common at higher levels.  
(If you are less interested in social stuff, then you can take something else).

For our level 9 Mystic Arcanum, we'll grab *Foresight*.  It basically gives you Advantage on everything all day.  Every Eldritch Blast, every saving throw, every ability check (even initiative).  And Disadvantage for every enemy trying to hit you.  That's awesome.   This helps us with basically every single one of the many roles the Generalist is filling.

*Spells:*
1)  The new summon spells from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything are great, so let's grab one.  *Summon Undead* offers Necrotic damage (relatively rarely resisted) and has a ranged option (skeletal) and an incorporeal option that can force multiple saves against fear per turn (ghostly). 
2)  *Dream* is a fun utility  spell, especially since Warlocks can use it like a "1-hour ritual."   Maybe use it like Dalinar in the Stormlight Archive.
3)  *Wall of Fire* is a hazard spell you can ping-pong people through with Repelling Blast.  Note the parts of it that don't offer a save:  That'll go right through magic resistance, legendary resistance, you name it.  And since it's fire, Celestial buffs it.
4)  *Dispel Magic* is always nice to have just in case.

*Invocations: * 
Switch out Eldritch Sight for *Witch Sight*  when you qualify for it.  This passively sees through a lot of stuff.   Invisibility, Blur, Mirror Image?  Foiled!  Those pesky changelings and  other shapechangers?  Revealed!

We take *Lance of Lethargy* to slow our Eldritch Blast victims even more after we blast them back 30-40 feet.

Then we grab *Far Scribe* for an at-will cell phone to communicate with all those awesome NPCs we've met throughout our long adventures towards reaching high level.  Get us our very own Otacon-equivalent.  Stay up to date on resistance intel, ask lore questions of that academic back at the grand library, call in a favor from that diviner, whatever.  By the time you get to high level, you've probably met _someone_ worth sending a Sending to.  You can also use it to stay in touch with the party scout or the like.

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## Mercurias

> Less a full build, more of a spell combo I'd like to highlight:
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Enter: 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> ...


I love the idea of using Ashardalons Stride creatively! Personally, Id been planning to make it part of a Bladesingers bag of tricks alongside Green Flame Blade and Blink to make a kind ofGhost-Fire-Sword-Dance situation.

It might be worth considering playing a smaller race if you plan on using a mount, since they have an easier time using a mount in tighter spaces.

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## Citadel97501

I was just wondering if anyone has worked out a build using the Monk Subclass Astral self, and Rune Knight?  I didn't spend much time mentally going at it, but I was thinking that it would be interesting and could be very effective.  The benefits seem to be mainly gaining good saves making your attacks all focused along wisdom and providing you reach and an a much large aoe blast from summoning your Astral Arms?  Grapple checks using Wisdom instead of strength, and basically a lot of other interesting changes to benefit a Single Stat build.

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## Mercurias

> I've been wondering, with all the builds now here, who's played through a campaign with one? I'm curious how they play "out in the field" so to speak.
> 
> Anyone else have some experiences with the builds in this thread?


I played the Arcana Cleric Frontliner for a game that was supposed to be a podcast but flopped and became just a regular campaign. I had an absolute blast the character from lv 1-11. Arcana Domain Clerics have an extremely strong start thanks to the bonus cantrips, and while their other features between 1-17 aren't going to win most encounters directly on their own, it builds into a solid and versatile kit. I rolled stupid-lucky for stats, so I ended up being the party brain, utility caster, and crowd control.

One of my favorite moments in the campaign involved me soloing an enemy lieutenant that the DM was worried we weren't going to be able to handle since it could fly and our party was largely melee-focused. Thorn Whip, Spirit Guardians, Booming Blade Reaction attacks, and a well-placed Command spell were all it took to take the thing out in three rounds while the rest of the party handled the other two enemies.

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## Mercurias

> I was just wondering if anyone has worked out a build using the Monk Subclass Astral self, and Rune Knight?  I didn't spend much time mentally going at it, but I was thinking that it would be interesting and could be very effective.  The benefits seem to be mainly gaining good saves making your attacks all focused along wisdom and providing you reach and an a much large aoe blast from summoning your Astral Arms?  Grapple checks using Wisdom instead of strength, and basically a lot of other interesting changes to benefit a Single Stat build.


I could see it working, but I wouldn't call it a SAD build. You'll still want to invest heavily in Dex, Con, AND Wis if you're going to be fighting in melee.

I would say that a 3 level dip into fighter for Rune Knight would work just fine for an Astral Self Monk, though. You can scribble runes onto jewelry and trigger them that way. I would personally pick the Cloud and Stone runes.

I might check with your DM before trying to roll with Giant Might giving you beefier Astral Arms for pinning people. I would allow it in my games because I think the idea is cool and that it doesn't break anything, and the way I read the rules, it looks like they support it, but I've had DMs before who would refuse to let that work no matter what the rules say because "It isn't supposed to work like that".

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## ftafp

*The Koched-Up Snowflake*

*Race:* Custom Lineage
*Class:* Life Cleric 1/Celestial Warlock 17
*Base Stats:* 8 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis, 17 Cha
*ASI:* Strixhaven Initiate(Quandrix, Guidance, Mage Hand, Goodberry)@1, Strixhaven [email protected], Fey Touched(+1 Cha, Gift of Alacrity)@9, +2 [email protected], Resilient(+1 Con)@17, Inspiring [email protected]
*Pact Boon:* Pact of the Chain
*Invocations:* Agonizing [email protected], Repelling [email protected], Investment of the Chain [email protected], Ghostly [email protected], Eldritch [email protected] Gift of the Everliving [email protected], Visions of Distant [email protected], Chains of [email protected]
*Spells of Note:* Sacred Flame, Bless, Gift of Alacrity, Goodberry, Flock of Familiars, Guardian of Faith

*Flying Mount*

The Fractal Mascot familiar from Strixhaven: Curriculum of Chaos is the star of this build and so absolutely freaking amazing I'm going to need multiple sections just to show how awesome it is, but let's get this detail out of the way first. The fractal familiar can freely assume every single size category in the game except for Gargantuan making it the only familiar option you can use as a mount for the whole party. That alone slaps but with Investment of the Chain Master we can grant it a flying speed, making it a *full-party flying mount!* Do I need to explain to you how big a deal is? Sure, its carrying capacity is only 720 pounds, but per crawford if it grapples you and your allies with its many self-similar tendrils you shouldn't need to worry about carrying capacity! Oh, is your DM giving you trouble? Well in that case, you can just cast Flock of Familiars from Lost Laboratory of Kwalish and get one fractal for each member of your party for an hour, recharging on a short rest.

*Infiltration*

You know what else this build can do? *No-clip baby!* This build takes several different approaches to arrive at the same point, but this is redundancy that pays off in spades. The first use of this is unsurprisingly our fractal again. Being a flying, size-shifting familiar is one thing, but being a flying, size-shifting familiar *who can phase through walls* is something else entirely. Thanks to it being effectively incorporeal, the fractal can straight up ignore any obstruction, and thanks to your ability from Strixhaven Mascot, you can swap places with it to get through as well. Not only that but when you later grab Fey Touched, misty step will let you do this as a bonus action while seeing through your fractal's eyes. Adding Ghostly Gaze on top of this lets you phase through even if your fractal isn't around. Ghostly gaze also means your fractal can infiltrate without running straight into a guard.

*Assassination*

Hey, know what else is great about having a familiar the size of an elephant who can fly and phase through walls at will? It works equally well on ceilings! Got someone on the other side of a wall you need to assassinate before they know what hit them? Have your fractal fly 200 feet above their heads and then fall prone, clipping through ceilings to land on a hapless victim for 10d6 damage in a 15x15 area, and the best part? You can use your reaction to give it resistance to the damage! Oh but why stop at one bunker buster? Flock of Familiars from Lost Laboratory of Kwalish lets you summon extra familiars equal to the spell slot you spend. *This isn't an assassination, it's a bombing run!*

Of course, we don't always need heavy-handed methods like this. Sacred Flame lets us kill enemies through solid walls as long as we can see them with ghostly gaze, and having a flying mount means you also have a flying sniper platform for you and your allies to pick off enemies with eldritch blast or your allies ranged attacks. Also, in the case of enemies with suitably large stomachs, the fractal has another trick up its sleeve! Its selective intangibility means it can phase through enemies as well, take up residence in their stomach and then expand, ripping them apart from the inside! Neat, huh?

*Support*

But of course, what is a build like this without ways to buff and heal allies as well? Strixhave Mascot forces you to take Strixhaven initiate first so why waste it? Goodberry is a fantastic choice with warlock slots, especially combined with life cleric's Disciple of Life which not only boosts it, but makes the healing scale with spell slots. You can spam it at the start of the day for large amounts of out-of-combat healing. Gift of Alacrity from fey touched lets you hit your allies with a 8-hour +1d8 to initiative rolls, and celestial warlock's pool of healing gives you a bonus action healing word that doesn't compete with your spells for slots or casting. It's a perfect tool for keeping your allies up (including your fractal). finally, at low levels, Bless is a great support spell that will let you easily protect and aid the whole party 

*Obstruction*

Oh you thought I was done? Well joke's on you buddy, because I want to share my favorite part of this build. Being selectively intangible, capable of hovering and anywhere between 2.5 and 15 feet in width, your fractal, or _fractals_ when Flock of Familiars is up can easily serve as a moving wall, blocking off enemies and their attacks and letting you control the battlefield. It's not just that though. You also get Guardian of Faith from the celestial warlock list. this spell, which can be spammed with warlock slots, lasts 8 hours, requires no concentration and allows you to easily barricade doors and hallways as the large guardian occupies its space, giving your party all the time they need to take a long rest in the middle of a dungeon if need be

*Spoiler: Variant: The Cheesy Version*
Show



This was originally included in the main build but has since been moved here since it's not something likely to be allowed at any table. If you want to use this, apply the following changes:

*Class:* Divine Soul Sorcerer [Lawful] 3/Celestial Warlock 17
*Progression:* Divine Soul 1, Celestial Warlock 1-9, Divine Soul 2, Celestial Warlock 10-17, Divine Soul 3
*Base Stats:* 8 Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 17 Cha
*ASI:* Strixhaven Initiate(Quandrix, Guidance, Mage Hand, Goodberry)@1, Strixhaven [email protected], Fey Touched(+1 Cha, Gift of Alacrity)@9, +2 [email protected], Moderately Armored(+1 Dex)@19
*Invocations:* Agonizing [email protected], Repelling [email protected], Investment of the Chain [email protected], Ghostly [email protected], Eldritch [email protected] Gift of the Everliving [email protected], Visions of Distant [email protected]

*Koched-Up*

This is the fun part. Warlock is nice and all, but 2 spell slots per battle can be kind of lame to play with. Since we'e already going all in on celestial warlock, we might as well grab greater restoration. Who needs sleep when you can inhale diamond dust to magically absolve yourself of exhaustion. You now have 8 extra short rests to either spam spells or convert your warlock slots into sorcery points and then into sorcerer spell slot. Personally, I think having 16 1st level slots per day that roll over to the day after is pretty nifty, don't you?

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## Hairfish

> *Koched-Up*
> 
> This is the fun part. Warlock is nice and all, but 2 spell slots per battle can be kind of lame to play with. Since we'e already going all in on celestial warlock, we might as well grab greater restoration. Who needs sleep when you can inhale diamond dust to magically absolve yourself of exhaustion. You now have 8 extra short rests to either spam spells or convert your warlock slots into sorcery points and then into sorcerer spell slot. Personally, I think having 16 1st level slots per day that roll over to the day after is pretty nifty, don't you?


Personally, I think you'd need a very permissive DM to do this. I'd rule any rest period of at least one but less than 8 hours as a single short rest (which I'm pretty sure is both RAW and RAI), unless the rest was interrupted by sufficient rest-breaking activity. If that rest-breaking activity was self/party-inflicted, then I'd just hit them with hourly monster attacks until they quit trying to abuse the rest rules.

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## ftafp

> Personally, I think you'd need a very permissive DM to do this. I'd rule any rest period of at least one but less than 8 hours as a single short rest (which I'm pretty sure is both RAW and RAI), unless the rest was interrupted by sufficient rest-breaking activity. If that rest-breaking activity was self/party-inflicted, then I'd just hit them with hourly monster attacks until they quit trying to abuse the rest rules.


fair. that part isn't necessary to the build though. Honestly, the only reason I included it was that I already had the name "koched-up snowflake" in mind for this build and when I remembered the so-called "cocainelock" trick it seemed too perfect to pass up.

I think I'll edit the build to show the more practical version I had planned out

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## MachineWraith

A question for LudicSavant: I noticed that the new Monsters of the Multiverse book made some pretty sweeping changes to player races, including a major rewrite of hobgoblins. How do you think those changes might influence the race choice for your Iron Wizard build? Just curious what you'd see as the best runner up, as most of the things you called out as helpful about the hobgoblin as a choice are no longer applicable if a DM decides to ban OG hobgoblins.

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## LudicSavant

> A question for LudicSavant: I noticed that the new Monsters of the Multiverse book made some pretty sweeping changes to player races, including a major rewrite of hobgoblins. How do you think those changes might influence the race choice for your Iron Wizard build? Just curious what you'd see as the best runner up, as most of the things you called out as helpful about the hobgoblin as a choice are no longer applicable if a DM decides to ban OG hobgoblins.


There's a few possibilities, should your DM decide that OG Hobgoblin is no longer available.

- You could take a 1-level multiclass dip into any number of things, like Cleric or Artificer or Hexblade.  And be a Warding Dwarf or MPMM Hobgoblin or something.
- You could be a VHuman and take lightly armored -> moderately armored. You'd actually end up with medium armor+shield at the same level the hobgoblin would (and a +2 Dex / +1 Con / +1 Int statline from the two half-feats and race), you'd just lose out on Saving Face and Darkvision (which certainly hurts, but it still works without it). You could do something similar as a Mountain Dwarf, too (getting a +1 Dex / +2 Int / +2 Con statline and dwarf features).

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## mw_147

Presenting my first build for this thread, and hopefully getting some feedback or advice about the order things are taken  :Small Smile: 

*The Blade-Master*

Concept: As much as I try to enjoy other types of characters, the one that always keeps pulling me back in is the heavy armour, sword and shield warrior. With that in mind I wanted to see what I could do to try and jazz the role up a bit without just being your standard sentinel tank. I wanted them to be the ace hero. Great offence, great defence, skills, cool moves etc. So this is what I've come up with to make a great all-rounder.

Race: Half-Elf. We're going to be MAD, and Half-Elf lets me start with a 16 Strength, 16 Charisma and 14 Constitution, without totally tanking the other ability scores. Spoilers - we're going to be taking some Bard levels so the extra skills from the PHB Half-Elf isn't as useful when you get Jack of All Trades, so I'd be inclined to look at the variants. High Elf for the extra cantrip would be nice, but only really for utility as it is based on INT. Wood Elf is probably my prefered option just for the nice simple boost to our movement speed.

Background: Whatever you want, customising is the best thing you can do here. Personally I've actually just gone for the Soldier background. Two skills we're going to have high attributes for, and some tool proficiencies. 

Ability Scores: Point buy or standard array works for us, letting us start with STR-16, DEX-10, CON-14, INT-8, WIS-12, CHA-16

Class: We're going to be going a mixture of Paladin/Bard/Fighter. Paladin is great giving us big boosts to both our attack and defence, while Bard (Swords) and Fighter (Battle Master) will give us our swordplay moves.

Level 1: Paladin 1 - We want heavy armour, so we need to start as either Paladin or Fighter, and since I plan on getting Extra Attack through Paladin it makes sense to get as many levels of this class as early as possible.

Level 2: Bard 1 - I totally get the argument for rushing to get Extra Attack, but I think we're a better all-rounder by taking some Bard levels first. Here we get some bonus proficiencies, and more importantly spells. Vicious Mockery gives a nice ranged attack with a debuff which I prefer to just carrying around a load of javelins. 

Level 3: Bard 2 - Jack of All Trades, we just got better at every skill we weren't already good at and our initiative finally gets a bonus. 

Level 4: Bard 3 - Taking the College of Swords gives us our flourishes so we can really start showing of our sword mastery. Dueling fighting style adds a little bit of damage. Expertise - I'd take this in Athletics and Intimidation which we got from the Soldier background, we we are going to be the best at these.

Level 5: Paladin 2 - We can smite, which will give us a nice damage boost, plus we have some extra slots to play with from taking Bard earlier. Another fighting style, might as well boost our AC with Defense. Some nice concentration options with Paladin spells too, like the smite spells, Bless or Divine Favour.

Level 6: Paladin 3 - We take our Oath. I'm not convinced there is a best option here, a lot of them bring nice things to the table. Conquest is what I've picked but would be willing to change. The AOE debuff is nice, plus their Oath spells are quite good. Spiritual Weapon will give us a bonus action attack when we get it, which is always handy. Oh and we're immune to disease. Cool.

Level 7: Paladin 4 - Even though we've got some good extras, we still only have one attack and we need to make sure it hits. Bump STR to 18.

Level 8: Paladin 5 - Finally we get extra attack. It hurt waiting this long to get it, but I think we are better all around for it. Plus, we get Spiritual Weapon at this level, so technically we can jump straight to having three attacks per round. Suck it Fighters. 

Level 9: Paladin 6 - Bit of a toss up for what to take here, I could totally see switching this and the next level around. For me, we haven't done much to boost our defence yet, so Aura of Protection comes along and makes all those saving throws jump up. Suck it Monks.

Level 10: Bard 4 - We've started getting more things to use our CHA for, but hitting things is still our bread and butter. Bump STR to 20.

Level 11: Bard 5 - 3rd level spells are awesome. Font of Inspiration is nice so we can flourish more often as a blade master should. 

Level 12: Fighter 1 - Not a lot for us here, but another fighting style is nice. Blind-Fighting is probably the most useful as we get into higher levels.

Level 13: Fighter 2 - When we need to, we can now go supernova with Action Surge. Suck it bosses.

Level 14: Fighter 3 - I wish we could have got here sooner but I feel the other things were more important. We get our maneuvers now to really show off our sword skills. Personally I like Brace, Riposte and Trip Attack, but there are lots of good options.

Level 15: Fighter 4 - We might as well get the next ASI sooner, so bump our CHA to benefit our spell DC and saves. 

Level 16: Paladin 7 - We get out Aura of Conquest. TBH I don't love this, but it does make our AOE debuff a bit better and adds a little damage.

Level 17: Paladin 8 - Max our CHA, again boosting our spell DC and saves.

Level 18: Paladin 9 - 3rd level Paladin spells come online. Spirit Shroud is a good option for adding damage.

Level 19: Paladin 10 - We're immune to fear. Which would have been great about 10-15 levels ago.

Level 20: Paladin 11 - Improved Divine Smite is another nice little damage boost, but again something I wish we could have got earlier. 

So, I think this build path gets us where we want for being a good all-rounder being able to show off our sword skills. The higher level Paladin levels admittedly don't do THAT much for us, but there's nothing else I could think of that would help us more, plus in most games we wouldn't get there anyway. I think this is solid at early levels and really comes to life in the mid-tiers.

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## zariel_paladin

> Presenting my first build for this thread, and hopefully getting some feedback or advice about the order things are taken 
> 
> *The Blade-Master*
> 
> Concept: As much as I try to enjoy other types of characters, the one that always keeps pulling me back in is the heavy armour, sword and shield warrior. With that in mind I wanted to see what I could do to try and jazz the role up a bit without just being your standard sentinel tank. I wanted them to be the ace hero. Great offence, great defence, skills, cool moves etc. So this is what I've come up with to make a great all-rounder.
> 
> Race: Half-Elf. We're going to be MAD, and Half-Elf lets me start with a 16 Strength, 16 Charisma and 14 Constitution, without totally tanking the other ability scores. Spoilers - we're going to be taking some Bard levels so the extra skills from the PHB Half-Elf isn't as useful when you get Jack of All Trades, so I'd be inclined to look at the variants. High Elf for the extra cantrip would be nice, but only really for utility as it is based on INT. Wood Elf is probably my prefered option just for the nice simple boost to our movement speed.
> 
> Background: Whatever you want, customising is the best thing you can do here. Personally I've actually just gone for the Soldier background. Two skills we're going to have high attributes for, and some tool proficiencies. 
> ...


if you were able to start this character with a free feat, what would you go for?

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## Khrysaes

> There's a few possibilities, should your DM decide that OG Hobgoblin is no longer available.
> 
> - You could take a 1-level multiclass dip into any number of things, like Cleric or Artificer or Hexblade.  And be a Warding Dwarf or MPMM Hobgoblin or something.
> - You could be a VHuman and take lightly armored -> moderately armored. You'd actually end up with medium armor+shield at the same level the hobgoblin would (and a +2 Dex / +1 Con / +1 Int statline from the two half-feats and race), you'd just lose out on Saving Face and Darkvision (which certainly hurts, but it still works without it). You could do something similar as a Mountain Dwarf, too (getting a +1 Dex / +2 Int / +2 Con statline and dwarf features).


Im not actually looking at the books right now but you could do custom lineage(i mean darkvision Human) instead of vhuman and get darkvision.

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## ftafp

*The Spellstitched Tailor*

*Race:* Custom Lineage
*Class:* Battle Smith 6/Graviturgist X
Base Stats: 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 18 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha
*ASI:* Fey Touched(Silvery Barbs, +1 Int)@1, [email protected], +2 [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
*Infusions:* Bag of Holding, Spellwrought Tattoo, Repeating Weapon, Pipes of Haunting
*Skills:* Perception, Stealth, Arcana, Investigation
*Tools:* Disguise Kit, Weaver's Tools, Wind Instruments
*Spells of Note:* Magic Stone, Guidance, Mending, Find Familiar, Disguise Self, Immovable Object, Magic Mouth, Rope Trick, Tiny Servant, Glyph of Warding, Fabricate, Summon Greater Demon, Animate Objects, Planar Binding, Seeming

*Cliff Notes:*
Disguise kits are used with xanathar's rules to disguise the whole party as guards, cultists, brigands or what have you on infiltration missions, and craft ghillie suits for use outdoorsSpellwrought tattoo (or should I say Spellstitched Suture) offers all the usual uses as well as being useful to disguise party members with difficult anatomy or summon a spider familiar which in addition to being on theme can more easily scout indoors without being noticed and can do recon on cult uniforms and the like, and Bag of Holding lets you keep a large number of disguisesBattle Smith at 3 might seem an odd choice for a tailor when Armorer is right there, but it has some advantages. Steel defenders don't disappear when they die, so you can make them in the shape of animated armor, and then create a new one at the end of a long rest to kill the old one without damaging it. This can be worn by allies or sold for a profit, or alternatively you can use a spell slot to immediately revive it and so you have two steel defendersMagic mouth can be cast on patches of fabric and sewn into scarfs, cowls, helmets or earmuffs to alert you when it hears an unseen creature or sees someone show the visible tells of a liarRope trick can be cast inside a bag of holding to vastly increase the bag's storage space, allowing you to hide the whole party inside and then make the bag invisible with disguise self. RAW rope trick in a bag of holding does not create a portal to the astral plane, because that only happens with items that create spaces, not spellsLevel 6 of artificer gives you expertise with your disguise kit, which is just nice to have, and (bag)pipes of haunting, which are just niceImmovable object is on brand, allowing you to make enemy clothing immovable, locking them in place with no save. Cast on spools of thread, you can make hang immovable garrotes in the air or tie enemies up with immovable strings. At higher levels you can make immovable boots so allies can fly and resist falling, forced movment or being knocked proneIn addition to throwing your magic stones (sewing chalk) tiny servants made out of spools of thread with immovable object on them can arrange themselves for youGlyphs of warding stiched inside your bag of holding can be useful for storing buffs. just stick your hand in the bag and make a hand sign to activate itFabricate with weaver's tools is a great way to make money. Craft large volumes of linen and resell for twice the price of the flaxAnimate Objects offers the same advantages as tiny servant spools, but a greater number of them all of whom have fly speedSummon Greater Demon when enhanced by planar binding is great for summoning Dybbuks to possessing corpses you sewed up to look presentable. These corpses have insane stats and can use dimension door at will, letting them even ready the spell to teleport you out of danger. They can also use dimension door with their incorporeality to break into magic item stores and teleport away with the lootSeeming is great for instant disguises but it's also perfect for weaving bags over enemy heads that they can't remove, blinding them. RAW just because they know it's illusory doesn't mean they can see through it, and it targets charisma saves which is neat

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## Citadel97501

I like this entire thing except for the Dybuuk as that seems to be out of character for someone like this, although I can definitely see your 19th level being Wizard 13, to get you simulacram which could be a sewn up doll that you have given a semblance of your own power and life.  I also love the idea of little raggedy anne dolls destroying your foes (tiny servants).  




> *The Spellstitched Tailor*
> 
> *Race:* Custom Lineage
> *Class:* Battle Smith 6/Graviturgist X
> Base Stats: 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 18 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha
> *ASI:* Fey Touched(Silvery Barbs, +1 Int)@1, [email protected], +2 [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
> *Infusions:* Bag of Holding, Spellwrought Tattoo, Repeating Weapon, Pipes of Haunting
> *Skills:* Perception, Stealth, Arcana, Investigation
> *Tools:* Disguise Kit, Weaver's Tools, Wind Instruments
> ...

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## ftafp

> I like this entire thing except for the Dybuuk as that seems to be out of character for someone like this, although I can definitely see your 19th level being Wizard 13, to get you simulacram which could be a sewn up doll that you have given a semblance of your own power and life.  I also love the idea of little raggedy anne dolls destroying your foes (tiny servants).


thanks you! yeah, the dybbuk was admittedly a last-second addition. i've had the idea lying around for a week or two but didn't want to post the whole build its attached to because i just did a stealy wizard not too long ag

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## mw_147

> if you were able to start this character with a free feat, what would you go for?


Probably War Caster to help get around the problem of casting while your hands are full, as well as its other benefits. My DM doesn't really care about that though, so my preferred option would be Fey Touched to get Misty Step and another spell like Hex or something.

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## RogueJK

*The Goblin Grim Reaper*

Goblin Hexblade 1/Grave Cleric 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer 5
Starting Divine Soul Sorcerer 1, then taking Grave Cleric 2, then Sorcerer to 3+, dipping Hexblade for 1 level, then straight Sorcerer from there.

STR 9
DEX 13+1
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 13
CHA 15+2
ASIs: Shadow Touched +1 CHA (or alternately +1 WIS/+1 CHA).  Plan for +2 CHA next, then Lucky.
Skills: Deception, Intimidation, Perception, Stealth

Sorcerer Cantrips: Toll the Dead, Message, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion
Cleric Cantrips: Spare the Dying*, Guidance, Mending, Thaumaturgy
Warlock Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Booming Blade

Sorcerer Spells: Inflict Wounds*, Disguise Self*, Invisibility*, Absorb Elements, Healing Word, Spiritual Weapon, Suggestion, Spirit Guardians, Fireball
Cleric Spells: Bane*, False Life*, Bless, Detect Magic (R), Protection from Good and Evil
Warlock Spells: Shield, Armor of Agathys

Sorcerer Metamagic: Quickened and Subtle


The main feature is your Touch of Death, which is sort of like the Inflict Wounds version of the "Nuclear Wizard" concept... It goes like this:

Action: Channel Divinity Path to the Grave, giving the enemy vulnerability to the damage of the next attack that hits.
Bonus Action: Quickened upcast Inflict Wounds + Fury of the Small. All this damage is doubled, thanks to the vulnerability from Path to the Grave. (And the dice would be effectively quadrupled on a critical hit.)
And if you happen to miss with the Inflict Wounds attack roll, you can utilize Favored by the Gods to add +2d4 and potentially turn it into a hit.

For example, a Hexblade 1/Grave Cleric 2/Sorcerer 3 would be doing 2*(5d10+6) damage - 67 average - on a hit with a 3rd level Inflict Wounds. Or a Hexblade 1/Grave Cleric 2/Sorcerer 5 would be doing 2*(6d10+8) damage - 82 average - on a hit with a 4th level Inflict Wounds.  Or a Hexblade 1/Grave Cleric 2/Sorcerer 7 would be doing 2*(7d10+10) damage - 97 average - with a 5th level Inflict Wounds.


You can utilize the Touch of Death by itself like that, and this Touch of Death option comes online at Grave Cleric 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer 3, but by dipping Hexblade 1 at the next level it gets even a bit more bonkers.  If you Hexblade's Curse the target beforehand, this allows you to also add an additional 2*Proficiency to these Inflict Wounds damage totals, plus more importantly extends your Crit range to 19-20, giving you twice as many chances at rolling that sweet "quadruple crit". 

This addition requires one round of setup, but that gives you the chance to get a Concentration spell up and running anyway, with Bless as a good option to further help ensure your Touch of Death lands (giving you an effective +3d4 to the attack roll if needed, between Bless and Favored by the Gods). This would look like:
Round 1: Bless + BA Hexblade's Curse
Round 2: Channel Divinity + BA Quickened Inflict Wounds

With Hexblade's Curse, this bumps the non-crit damage total for a Hexblade 1/Grave Cleric 2/Sorcerer 3 up to 2*(5d10+9) damage - 73 average - on a hit with a 3rd level Inflict Wounds with Hexblade's Curse. Or a Hexblade 1/Grave Cleric 2/Sorcerer 5 would be doing 2*(6d10+11) damage - 88 average - on a hit with a 4th level Inflict Wounds and Hexblade's Curse. Or a Hexblade 1/Grave Cleric 2/Sorcerer 7 would be doing 2*(7d10+14) damage - 105 average - with a 5th level Inflict Wounds with Hexblade's Curse.

And since Hexblade's Curse, Fury of the Small, Channel Divinity, Favored by the Gods, and the 1st level Pact Magic slot used to cast Bless all recharge on a short rest, you can do this Touch of Death multiple times per day, provided you still have remaining spell slots for upcasting Inflict Wounds and enough spell points to Quicken it.


On rounds when you're not setting up or executing the Touch of Death, you can do the standard Tier 2 Cleric-style routine of Cantrip/Attack/Dodge + BA Spiritual Weapon + Passive Spirit Guardians.  And with CHA-based melee weapon attacks, Booming Blade, and racial Nimble Escape, you can also utilize the hit-and-run routine of Booming Blade+BA Disengage.  Plus you have a couple solid ranged damage options with Eldritch Blast and Toll the Dead, along with a number of utility spells and cantrips for out of combat use.


As far as further progression goes, from Hexblade 1/Grave Cleric 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer 5, you'd simply be taking more Divine Soul Sorcerer levels for the remainder of the adventuring career, picking up additional Sorcerer and Cleric spells along the way.  However, it might be worth eventually dipping a 2nd level into Warlock for some Invocations and the additional short rest recharging Pact Magic slot for spell point generation or Shield/Absorb Elements use.  Once you've maxed CHA, you'd then take the Lucky feat to be able to reroll clear misses on your Touch of Death attack rolls (like Natural 1s), to ensure you're even less likely to waste the spell slot and the Channel Divinity.

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## togapika

Ludic, can you perhaps mention whether the new Bugbear's Surprise Attack would be worth more than Elven Accuracy on the ranged samurai build?

Does that change based on the type of ranged weapon used in the build?

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## CMCC

> Ludic, can you perhaps mention whether the new Bugbear's Surprise Attack would be worth more than Elven Accuracy on a samurai build?
> 
> Does that change based on the type of ranged weapon used in the build?


"a" samurai build or "the" samurai build?

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## stoutstien

> Ludic, can you perhaps mention whether the new Bugbear's Surprise Attack would be worth more than Elven Accuracy on a samurai build?
> 
> Does that change based on the type of ranged weapon used in the build?


As far as maximizing the fighting spirit+action surge combo bugbear hits harder than an elf with EA facing most realistic ACs but you'd need to invest in alert (not a bad thing) to make sure RNG doesn't bite you at the wrong time. Though the BM Archer might be a better pick for the bugbear thanks to getting off a ba attack with a hand crossbow. Toss on a gloom stalker dip and it gets silly.

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## togapika

> facing most realistic ACs


So would the Tarrasque be a realistic AC or non-realistic?

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## stoutstien

> So would the Tarrasque be a realistic AC or non-realistic?


That's on the top end but still realistic. I consider sustained AC above 27 to be fairly unrealistic to see often enough to worry about. The additional damage is applicable on higher ACs because it applies even if you don't want to utilize the damage portion of sharpshooter.

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## strangebloke

*The Veteran: An Aggressive Martial Who Commands Respect On and Off the Battlefield*

tl;dr we're abusing BM features to get lots of reaction attacks and double up on sneak attack for massive damage, while also having phenomenal out of combat capability and a lot of hardiness.
*Race*: Metallic Dragonborn
*Class*: Battlemaster 7/Swashbuckler 13
*Base Stats*: 10 str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Cha
*ASIs*: [email protected], +2 [email protected], +2 [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
*Maneuvers*: Riposte, Brace, Commanding Presence
*Fighting Style*: Superior Technique(Ambush)
*Expertise*: Stealth, Intimidation, Persuasion, Deception

*Progression:**Spoiler*
Show


From Levels 1-5 You're a solid Battlemaster with rapier and shield and buckets of charisma. At these levels +1d8 to intimidation or persuasion is much better than expertise, so you're an effective party face. You might feel that using something like commanding presence 'wastes' your superiority dice, but in practice the way campaigns are often paced means that you'll be able to slip in a short rest between non-combat and combat encounters. Ambush won't always get used, but when it does it will let you steal initiative/surprise and potentially take down enemies before they ever draw a weapon. But the real fun here is the combo of riposte, brace, and sentinel. The enemy approached you? Opportunity attack. They ran away? Opportunity attack. They missed your 18 (Shield + Breastplate + Dex) AC? Opportunity attack. They attacked your friend? Actually, you get an Opportunity Attack then too. On top of all this, you're also a Fizban's dragonborn, which lets you mix breath attacks with other attacks for lots of extra damage, especially against large groups. .

But the build isn't even off the ground yet.

When you start taking Rogue levels (personally I would take rogue 1 at level 7, but a lot of different splits work), your stealth and party face utility is kicked into overdrive. That's sort of obvious, right? This is the level where expertise really starts pay dividends. There's no magic, no trickery, but when you talk, people _listen._ Your stealth averages out at +14.5 at level 7, and you can add PWT on top of that.

But the real star is, your sneak attack gets activated on your actions _and reactions_. Sneak attack specifies once per _turn_ but not once per _round._ And since you're almost always getting a reaction, you get to make _two sneak attacks almost every single turn_. Your damage scaling from this point is insane. And yes, this is why you're a swashbuckler. Rakish Audacity makes it a lot easier to proc SA in melee even if you've won initiative and charged in ahead.

And oh yeah, you're going to be doing that a _lot._ +CHA to initiative on top of everything else for a whopping +7 (_without_ Ambush) at level 9. You can be more judicious with Ambush now, since you'll normally just win initiative without trying and you only need Ambush when you want to push it over the top. Plus, you're fast. This build hasn't really used bonus actions much up till now, so dashing/disengaging/hiding every turn is definitely on the table.

By level 11, the build has really come together. Your base resourceless damage is solid (1d8+5)*2+3d6=30.5, But whenever you get a reaction attack your damage spikes by 1d8+1d8+5+3d6=25.5. That's 5 times per SR plus however many times Sentinel procs. Your nova potential is also silly. Did you know you can use the draconic breath weapon twice in a turn if you use action surge? Yep. Oh yeah, and you can also ready an attack action to get sneak attack twice even without superiority dice or any action on your enemy's part.


*Conclusion*
*Spoiler*
Show

Like, picture this. You win initiative, win surprise, charge 60 feet out of cover to beat on the enemy. You attack, you get sneak attack. You action surge, ready the attack action for just after your turn, you get sneak attack again. Surprise wears off, it's your turn again. You hit someone again, get sneak attack again, but this time you replace one of your attacks with enervating breath. Several of the enemies still standing lose their turn _again,_ but you park next to one of the remaining non-incapacitated non-dead enemies, because almost no matter what they do, they're going to give you another sneak attack. At this point, unless this was a super-deadly encounter or your party was sitting with their fingers up their bums the encounter is basically over.

Obviously the above is really idealized. But the point is that you're really good against _everything._ You can park next to an enemy and punish them heavily for doing almost anything. Your damage is better and more consistent than a rogues, and you're competitive with a straight battlemaster. You can fight effectively at range. You can roast groups of enemies with breath weapons. You will almost always win initiative. You're highly mobile. You have 19 AC. You can play party face better than almost anyone. You are a master of stealth. You can heal yourself with second wind. You're a catalina wine mixer of utility and damage, able to keep pace with most other martials in their niche without suffering their shortcomings.

It's... it's almost like being a caster :Small Cool: .


*Alteration/Personalization**Spoiler*
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What's fun about this combo is that it works with a lot of different formulations. You can go as high as 7 in battlemaster without wasting any levels. The extra die at 7 is worthwhile, albeit perhaps a little lacking compared to what you get from rogue. I didn't spell it out here but imo BM 7 is something you save for extremely high levels, possibly even until level 20 since its (imo) better than blindsense. But getting off after fighter 1 or BM 3 is valid too, since you can start your scaling earlier and pump your damage up with Booming Blade.  You can also stop taking rogue levels whenever if you want to go monk or ranger or paladin for a bit. The core of this build is basically the first three levels of BM and the first 2 levels of rogue, and everything else is up for grabs.

The only thing I'll say strongly is that starting with rogue levels as opposed to BM levels is probably a mistake. The shield and second wind and the bm dice are all really strong in T1, whereas expertise isn't amazing until T2. Additionally, Uncanny dodge, which is the main 'welcome to t2' feature for rogue is actually not going to be super useful to you because you have so many other reactions.

You can also use whatever rogue subclass or race suits your fancy. If MPMM bugbear is on the table, that particular monstrous race can push your first round damage through the roof, since if you win initiative, which you should, you get +2d6 damage on every attack, which with action surge is a _fireball's_ worth of damage. Vhuman allows you to get an early Sentinel and max dex quicker. Variant half-elf can get you booming blade quickly if that's your preferred route, or it can get you mask of the wild to boost the number of places you can hide. Lightheart Halflings can also hide in weird places, as can (obviously) wood elves, though wood elves also have access to Wood Elf Magic and by extension, Pass Without Trace. Or go Changeling, to play more with the party face angle. I didn't do this with my build here, but dragon hide is a pretty good feat since it lets you go into combat naked gives you +1 AC for a half-feat. EDIT: in hindsight I somehow missed the MPMM Earth Genasi. What a great race for this build! I daresay its probably the best. You don't have something to use your bonus action on every turn, so blade ward is basically free damage resistance, and Earth Genasi get PWT on top of this, which makes your stealth a truly insane +24.5 at level 7. Wow! Shadar-kai is arguably even better here.

And yeah it goes without saying but you can substitute swashbuckler for soulknife or arcane trickster. They are also very good here, since they're good for everything.

And... yeah! You can build this all as a strength character too. Your stealth and surprise won't be as effective, but your AC will be better to start with, and you can focus more heavily on other areas (forgoing superior technique and ambush in favor of just grabbing dueling, as an example.)This build isn't really the best for grappling, since you have enough tools for lockdown and wouldn't really want to sacrifice your shield in any case, but it is a direction you can go if you like. One small note is, there's better magic item access for str characters.

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## Citadel97501

> *The Veteran: An Aggressive Martial Who Commands Respect On and Off the Battlefield*tl;dr we're abusing BM features to get lots of reaction attacks and double up on sneak attack for massive damage, while also having phenomenal out of combat capability and a lot of hardiness.


Damn fine build that is a very fun sounding martial character, it also makes me think of a Jedi who specializes in Shien style...Everything done against me or those I protect is a mistake, and I punish all mistakes.

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## strangebloke

> Damn fine build that is a very fun sounding martial character, it also makes me think of a Jedi who specializes in Shien style...Everything done against me or those I protect is a mistake, and I punish all mistakes.


Yup. The reason I called this the "veteran" is that they have the hallmarks of real experience. Predicting the enemy's movement, choosing the field of battle, surprising the enemy, and taking them out before they have a chance to react. Really I do think Bugbear is probably the most on-brand here, but frankly its hard to find good art of bugbears and also they're not suitable for every campaign.

The one caveat here is that this character is a little fragile. Uncanny dodge can't be used if you're doubling on sneak attack, and you don't have any defensive features besides high(ish) AC, which won't scale amazingly into the late game. You can heal with second wind which helps more than most people think, but still isn't enough to keep you alive if you get dogpiled. So you do need to be aggressive and/or have support to keep you alive while you're taking the enemy out, and sometimes you'll want to hang back and shoot people with a shortbow.

The Strength version of this build does a lot better on defense. You can have 21 AC pretty fast via plate and defense (no need for superior technique if you don't get ambush) and you can easily work in a couple barbarian levels for rage damage reduction.

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## KyleG

> *The Veteran: An Aggressive Martial Who Commands Respect On and Off the Battlefield*
> 
> tl;dr we're abusing BM features to get lots of reaction attacks and double up on sneak attack for massive damage, while also having phenomenal out of combat capability and a lot of hardiness.
> *Race*: Metallic Dragonborn
> *Class*: Battlemaster 7/Swashbuckler 13
> *Base Stats*: 10 str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Cha
> *ASIs*: [email protected], +2 [email protected], +2 [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
> *Maneuvers*: Riposte, Brace, Commanding Presence
> *Fighting Style*: Superior Technique(Ambush)
> ...


I'm thinking of changing my warforged as a narrative opportunity has arisen and this looks very cool (and they art is amazing). i was leaning into battlemaster with a warhammer+2 the party has but doesn't use but now seriously considering a different tact and going rogue not necessarily swashbuckling thou. inquisitive 9 perhaps, bm 11, although I'll be level 12 at time of switch, so maybe bm7/inq5. It's a little weaker but could be fun looking at this.

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## strangebloke

> I'm thinking of changing my warforged as a narrative opportunity has arisen and this looks very cool (and they art is amazing). i was leaning into battlemaster with a warhammer+2 the party has but doesn't use but now seriously considering a different tact and going rogue not necessarily swashbuckling thou. inquisitive 9 perhaps, bm 11, although I'll be level 12 at time of switch, so maybe bm7/inq5. It's a little weaker but could be fun looking at this.


Basically any rogue works for this yeah. The main thing that gets weakened is your first-round potential, since you'll win initiative less, and because you'll need to spend your BA on insightful fighting rather than dashing. But its not a serious problem, and arguably just as flavorful.

Remember, you can't use a warhammer for this, you need a finesse weapon. Even if you're using strength.

Final note is that I wouldn't recommend going to BM 11. A lot of the features here are going to be overkill/redundant, and fighter 9 in particular is pretty weak. The damage scaling from more rogue is almost always better.

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## KyleG

> Basically any rogue works for this yeah. The main thing that gets weakened is your first-round potential, since you'll win initiative less, and because you'll need to spend your BA on insightful fighting rather than dashing. But its not a serious problem, and arguably just as flavorful.
> 
> Remember, you can't use a warhammer for this, you need a finesse weapon. Even if you're using strength.
> 
> Final note is that I wouldn't recommend going to BM 11. A lot of the features here are going to be overkill/redundant, and fighter 9 in particular is pretty weak. The damage scaling from more rogue is almost always better.


Yeah its a downside cos the hammer is very cool. As to damage at fighter 11 you'd get that extra attack. 1d8+5. If youd taken rogue its an extra 2d6 instead. Similar.  The kicker is your opportunity attack.

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## strangebloke

> Yeah its a downside cos the hammer is very cool. As to damage at fighter 11 you'd get that extra attack. 1d8+5. If youd taken rogue its an extra 2d6 instead. Similar.  The kicker is your opportunity attack.


Extra attack is nice, but with the OAs gives you less damage. You also get bigger BM dice, but that's barely worth anything for this build. Beyond that you get one more ASI and indomitable, which is pretty anemic compared to Lucky, which you can get anyway.

Ultimately it doesn't super matter.

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## LudicSavant

> Ludic, can you perhaps mention whether the new Bugbear's Surprise Attack would be worth more than Elven Accuracy on the ranged samurai build?
> 
> Does that change based on the type of ranged weapon used in the build?


Well, it's not quite as simple as "Surprise Attack vs Elven Accuracy" because you're not trading a half-feat for a half-feat, but a half-feat and a race for a half-feat and a race.

Being a Shadar-Kai offers more mobility and defenses -- even moreso than it used to, since it got buffed.  It will also hit extremely consistently when you need it to, not just with its base damage but anything you buff it with (like if someone casts Holy Weapon on you, for instance).  But that mobility and defense is just something a Bugbear doesn't offer -- if you're in a Wall of Force as a Bugbear, someone needs to bust you out.

Bugbear will generally hit harder with Surprise Attack, when you get to use it (so, turn 1 against any creatures you beat in initiative).  Bonus points if you have teammates who can mess with initiative (like a Lore Bard who can Cutting Words a key foe's initiative roll, or a Watchers Paladin who boosts yours).  It makes for a devastating (or even combat-winning) opening turn, provided the target you want to go all in on is available for you to hit on turn 1, and that you beat them in initiative.  Bugbear will also be able to take a new half-feat, like Skill Expert or Piercer or Gunner, and tack that on to your repertoire in place of Elven Accuracy.

Altogether I'd say that both are very strong choices, just in different ways.

You can modify this program that I put together for the Samurai build post to represent the Bugbear's Surprise Attack.  Just switch the Samurai figures to "highest of 2d20" instead of "highest of 3d20" and have it add 2d6 extra damage.  You can also set the target AC to whatever you want, add in any buffs or modifiers you like, etc as needed.

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## Miele

> *The Goblin Grim Reaper*
> 
> Goblin Hexblade 1/Grave Cleric 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer 5
> Starting Divine Soul Sorcerer 1, then taking Grave Cleric 2, then Sorcerer to 3+, dipping Hexblade for 1 level, then straight Sorcerer from there.
> 
> STR 9
> DEX 13+1
> CON 14
> INT 8
> ...


This is PERFECT!

In our current campaign my rogue will soon abandon the party (stealing something and becoming an NPC). We just managed to save a goblin from slavery (of sorts), he had been used by some evil guy and his lackeys as entertainment, yet he managed to survive. 
I told my DM that I'm willing to play this character as goblin, considering he saved himself from excessive abuse due to Subtle Metamagic Suggestion casts.

I'd just need to flesh out the story, how he got in service of a Grave Domain deity, his transformation to a Sorcerer and the eventual dip into Warlock. I was thinking that since he's not too smart, he may be prone to follow anyone offering him some sort of power to stay alive, so first a deity, eventually a second one (must be evil to pick Inflict Wounds as a DS Sorcerer) and finally a patron. Since we play in the FR setting I'll have to go through my SCAG book to find something that makes sense.

I thought some background with Deception should be mandatory, considering what he did to stay alive.

Stat wise I'm raising CON over DEX for concentration saves (Custom stats for goblin with +1 CON and +2 CHA), because he may have to use Bless, Spirit Guardians, etc. and eventually planning to use my first ASI at Sorcerer 4 for Fey Touched maybe to round up CHA to 18 and when I'll get a 2nd ASI maybe Warcaster (or CHA 20? I'm partial to stat increases).

If you have any further ideas on how to develop the character, I'm quite interested.
Thank you for the concept, it sounds really cool!

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## RogueJK

> I'd just need to flesh out the story, how he got in service of a Grave Domain deity, his transformation to a Sorcerer and the eventual dip into Warlock. I was thinking that since he's not too smart, he may be prone to follow anyone offering him some sort of power to stay alive, so first a deity, eventually a second one (must be evil to pick Inflict Wounds as a DS Sorcerer) and finally a patron. Since we play in the FR setting I'll have to go through my SCAG book to find something that makes sense.


A few thoughts:

1) Divine Soul Sorcerer doesn't require adherence to a deity, or even any connection to a specific deity.  You can just have a distant Celestial/Fiendish/Deific connection in your bloodline.  Or you may have just been marked by a divine prophecy, or blessed by a divine source, or had your magical abilities awakened through the application (or misapplication) of divine magic.

2)  You don't necessary have to get Inflict Wounds as a Evil Divine Magic ability spell.  You can go with Lawful (Bless) or Neutral (Protection from Good/Evil) and build it almost the exact same way I did above.  You'd just take Inflict Wounds as a Sorcerer spell pick in place of Healing Word, and then take Healing Word as a Cleric spell pick in place of either Bless or Protection.  So you aren't pidgeonholed into just an Evil source for your Divine Soul abilities, unless that's what you want.

3) In Forgotten Realms setting, Kelemvor - the Lawful Neutral God of Death - would be the classic Grave Domain deity.  Perhaps your goblin prayed to the God of Death in his despair and torment, asking for the release of death to end his misery, and instead received divine comfort and rejuvenation from Kelemvor, along with gaining a plethora of martial/clerical/caster abilities that would empower him to survive, make his escape, and exact justice against his captors.  (One aspect of Kelemvor's faith is that people should be protected from monsters and disease so that they do not die before their appointed time.)





> Stat wise I'm raising CON over DEX for concentration saves (Custom stats for goblin with +1 CON and +2 CHA), because he may have to use Bless, Spirit Guardians, etc. and eventually planning to use my first ASI at Sorcerer 4 for Fey Touched maybe to round up CHA to 18 and when I'll get a 2nd ASI maybe Warcaster (or CHA 20? I'm partial to stat increases).


Warcaster won't be as necessary on this character, provided you start as a Sorcerer at Level 1 as I suggested in my build.  Sorcerers get CON save proficiency, so paired with a decent CON score, you'll already have a hefty Concentration bonus.  You have a further potential boost to your Concentration checks with Favored of the Gods if you happen to fail the roll, and/or Bless also boosts your Concentration checks.  (So you can have potentially CON Bonus + Proficiency bonus + 3d4 on a Concentration check.)  

You can use your Action to Dodge while utilizing the Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardians combo, making yourself both tougher to hit and less likely to take damage from DEX-save effects (and therefore less likely to need Concentration checks in the first place) while still putting out solid damage numbers with just SW + SG, especially if upcasting one or both of those.  Or when not using SG and not needing to stick close to the front lines, you can utilize the hit-and-run combo of Booming Blade + BA Disengage, or hang back and use ranged cantrips like EB or TtD so that you're not hanging out on the frontlines, thus possibly reducing the need to Concentration checks.

And your have Shield and Absorb Elements too, to avoid/reduce damage and therefore avoid/reduce the need for Concentration checks.

So Warcaster's Concentration Advantage really isn't needed, and while Booming Blade OAs from Warcaster could be nice at times, I'd definitely suggest +2 CHA as the much better choice there instead of Warcaster.

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## DevanAvalon

> Might look something like this:
> 
> Ye olde Sharpshooter Samurai gets a newfangled weapon.
> 
> *The Modern Gun-Kata Master*
> _Like the ancient kyujutsu master, but with a tanegashima._
> 
> *Shadar-Kai Samurai 20*
> Starting Point Buy:  17 Dex, 14 or 16 Con, other stats to taste (example:  17 Dex / 14 Con / 14 Wis / 12 Cha / 10 Str / 8 Int)
> ...


Hey guys.

Let's say I want to combine this with Artificer 2 so I have a *magic* musket and no worries about ammo...

Start Fighter, get Sharpshooter and EA... Artificer 1/2 in preparation for Gunner... resume progression.

Would that... be a decent option?

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## Quietus

> Hey guys.
> 
> Let's say I want to combine this with Artificer 2 so I have a *magic* musket and no worries about ammo...
> 
> Start Fighter, get Sharpshooter and EA... Artificer 1/2 in preparation for Gunner... resume progression.
> 
> Would that... be a decent option?


If you're using the Repeating Shot infusion to bypass the loading quality, then you've eliminated one of Gunner's benefits.  Two, actually, since Artificer will get you proficiency with firearms.  You're reducing the feat to "+1 dex, no disadvantage for firing in melee" - I'd personally be taking +2 dex (or a different half feat) over that.

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## DevanAvalon

> If you're using the Repeating Shot infusion to bypass the loading quality, then you've eliminated one of Gunner's benefits.  Two, actually, since Artificer will get you proficiency with firearms.  You're reducing the feat to "+1 dex, no disadvantage for firing in melee" - I'd personally be taking +2 dex (or a different half feat) over that.


to be *fair* that's still +1 Dex more than Xbow Expert.

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## ftafp

*The Anything But Boring Martial*

*Race:* Mountain Dwarf
*Class:* Battle Master 20
*Base Stats:* 14 Str, 17 Dex, 16 Con, 8 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha
*ASI:* [email protected], [email protected], Skill Expert (Athletics Expertise, Deception Proficiency, +1 Dex)@8, +2 [email protected], Resilient(+1 Wis)@14, Crusher(+1 Con)@16, [email protected]
*Fighting Style:* Archery
*Techniques:* Pushing Attack, Menacing Attack, Precision Attack, Tripping Attack, Ambush, Maneuvering Attack, Quick Toss, Parry, Evasive Footwork
*Skills:* Athletics, Stealth, Perception, Acrobatics
*Tools:* Thieves' Tools, Mason's Tools, Smith's Tools, Disguise Kid, Poisoner's Kit, Woodcarver's Tools, Forgery Kit, Cook's Utensils, Wind Instruments
*Equipment:* Several Hand Crossbow, a sling, nets, a mount, an adamantine maul, one or more chests, the above tools, a close-topped land vehicle, a bullseye lantern


In 5e, the martial/caster disparity is one of the biggest issues with dnd's design principles. This build is meant to alleviate that, and make a damn fun character to play if I do say so myself

*Tools:*
One of the first things you might notice looking at this build is the massive list of tool proficiencies. This isn't just space-filling content, it's the main reason we took Mountain Dwarf as a race instead of Vuman or CL. *Tool proficiencies are features,* and in your case these will make up the vast majority of your out-combat utility. Here's some examples of how we'll use them:
*Disguise Kit:* Stealth is one of the most commonly used skills in dnd, but despite that it's also one of the most screwed up. As a member of a party, your stealth bonus means next to nothing if the other members roll poorly, but with a disguise kit, you can often bypass this problem entirely. Need to sneak into a fortress or cult meeting? Per the rules in Xanathars, it takes 10-30 minutes to craft a costume, meaning you can make 2-6 per short rest, and for that effort your party can walk in brazenly rather than creeping around, and often get surprise rounds when attacking. Hoofing it in the woods? Ghillie Suits can provide a similar stealth advantage. Is the party necromancer worried about getting his skeletons into the city? Cover them with a full-body outfit and your problems are gone.*Smith's Tools:* You ever notice how when you try to loot a guard's body, the dm will say all they have is 2gp and a ball of lint even though they were just fighting you with a longsword, shield, shortbow and chainmail? DMs often overlook these items, as per the rules in the Monster Manual, enemy equipment is usually in poor condition and won't be bought. However, it's quite easy to fix up weapons and armor, and doing so can net you a substantial profit on resale. By my calculations the first dungeon in Baldur's Gate, Descent Into Avernus has over 1500 gp worth of nonmagical equipment in it. Despite that it's possible to clear out the entire complex with two pack mules. Beyond the monetary benefits, it only takes a DC 15 check to sunder a metal object. If you find yourself facing off against  a heavily armored enemy for example, you can potentially use this to break their armor, either with your tools or the adamantine maul mentioned in the equipment*Woodcarver's Tools:* This serves much the same purpose as smiths tools for wooden objects. it's not as necessary, but it can be helpful and if your dm forces you to track ammo this should shut them up real quick.*Mason's Tools:* Per the rules in Xanathar's, Mason's Tools make your weapon attacks against stone structures do double damage. Considering a 10 foot section of stone wall only has an AC of 17 and 27 HP, this should be no trouble for you to destroy in one turn, particularly once you get your adamantine maul. This has the obvious applications of bypassing doors and staircases and causing structural damage to buildings, but it also can be used in combat to control the terrain, allowing you to create choke points your party can make use of or create alcoves for cover.*Thieves' Tools:* Probably the most heavily used tool in the game, thieves' tools are often seen merely as a go-to solution for opening locks and disarming traps, but Xanathar's added the ability to make traps during a short rest using whatever you had on hand. This can be obviously be used to protect a sleeping spot or set up an ambush, but why stop there? Chests are one of the most heavily trapped items in the game, but they weigh a mere 25 pounds. a small character with 8 str can carry almost 5 times that witout breaking a sweat. One of the simplest traps a you can build is putting a bunch of hand crossbows inside a chest and rigging a tripwire so they fire when the chest is opened. all you need to do is set it down in combat and open away from you. It's the most efficient way to turn downtime into damage, and you can pair it with poison you get from the Poisoner's Kit*Poisoner's Kit:* Poison may be the worst damage type, but 75% of the monsters in the game still have no protection to it, and 10% of all monsters in the game have some form of poison or another. If you have someone in your party with a way to get friendly poisonous creatures (e.g. find familiar, wild shape or conjure animals) you can use this to harvest as much poison as you need for your own uses, and unlike with using nature or survival, you are at no risk of poisoning yourself.*Wind Instruments:* This is vital if you have an artificer in the party, but useful otherwise. Proficiency with Wind Instruments is necessary for using Pipes of Haunting, which is one of the best options on the artificer's infusion list. Even if you don't have an artificer, this can still come in handy if you find that item or buy it*Forgery Kit:* This goes hand-in-hand with the Disguise Kit mentioned earlier. If you need to sneak into a party, this can give you invitations. If you need to command the city guard to do something for you, this can get you an order from the local nobleman. If you're making a large purchase in town, you can forge a promissory note from that same local nobleman promising payment for your purchases. As an adventurer, you are bound to meet the people in power sooner or later, so this is free influence

*Combat Tactics:*
It's often said that all martials ever really do in combat is take the attack action. This is often the case, but today I want to introduce some new tactics for you to make use of.
*Climbing:* Players often forget it, but technically speaking, every race has a climb speed. It's half their movement speed. With a 25 foot walking speed you only have a 10 foot climbing speed, but this is more than enough to get you on top of a roof or ledge, out of reach enemy melee attacks unless they try to climb after you, which limits their attack options and might not even be possible if they have a shield or non-humanoid anatomy. These positions also make it possible for you to access various sniping points that otherwise might not have been accessible, and can aid greatly in break-ins, allowing you to bypass rooms. Many DMs require Athletics checks for climbing without a speed, but with expertise you shouldn't have too much trouble. This can also be helpful against huge and gargantuan monsters with high speeds or powerful ranged attacks, as the rules in the DMG for climbing on a creature often turns their back into a blind spot from which they're unable to target you.*Jumping:* Most people think of jumping as a tool for when you're leaping over gorges or across rooftops, but Tasha's added a more powerful use: pouncing on top of enemies. It only takes a str of 14 to high jump above an enemy's head. Landing in their space forces them to make a DC 15 Dex save or fall prone, even if no damage is dealt. While you're best at fighting at a distance, in cramped quarters where melee is unavoidable, you can use this to give you reliable advantage on attacks. Note also that you can jump more than once per turn. This means that if using your own movement speed, you can potentially subject an enemy to your ground pound 3 times in 1 turn, or even more while mounted. It also means that in cases where hazards are layers across the ground, such as with spike growth, you can easily bunny hop over them to avoid being damaged or slowed. Remember when proning your enemies to grapple them to keep them from getting up, this ensures you'll have advantage until the enemy dies*Mounts:* A trusty mount can make all the difference when it comes to fights on roads, streets and battlefields. Mounts can dash and disengage without you using any action or bonus action of your own, and often have at least twice the movement speed available to most races. This can mean a default kill against melee and even ranged enemies if you can keep your distance. A mount can also pull a chariot or wagon to give you extra cover and increase their carrying capacity. Also of note, pretty much every mount is capable of pulling off the same tricks noted above in the jumping section, giving you a way to prone enemies without relying on your own meager speed*Sundering:* See, it's never really talked about, but the rules for attacking objects don't specify that said objects can't be worn or carried. Against enemies who are reliant on spellcasting foci, ranged weapons or heavy armor, you can use attacks with your hand crossbow or adamantine maul to destroy enemy equipment, effectively declawing them in combat. Considering most foci and ranged weapons are fragile medium or smaller objects made most often of wood, you can usually manage this with one attack. Heavy armor is harder. As mentioned before, smith's tools or an adamantine maul are excellent tools for cracking hard shells open.*Battle Master Techniques:* All of these are useful tools, never forget you can use them. Menacing attack is best against melee-oriented enemies who find themselves at a distance, while Pushing Attack can be combined with crusher and either your maul or sling to fling enemies 20 feet in the air, knocking them prone and dealing bonus damage in addition to pushing them into battlefield hazards. Quick Toss with may seem like an odd choice, but against enemies without slashing attacks, you can waste an enemy's action for the cost of only a bonus action and an attack roll from you.*Bullsye Lantern:* If you have party members without darkvision, this is a *must have* in dark areas, particularly during nighttime fights. Unlike hooded lanterns, bullseye lanterns allow you to keep your allies hidden from view by darkness while still allowing you to see the enemy. This means the enemy has disadvantage against attacks against your allies, and your allies have advantage on attacks against those enemies. For this reason, if you're going on the offensive, you should always try to do so at night.

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## ftafp

*The Leech*

*Race:* Dhampir (Small race, preferably something under 18 pounds like a mass of leeches or a kobold skeleton)
*Class:* Divine Soul 2, Fiend Warlock 18
*Progression:* Divine Soul 1, Fiend Warlock 1-5, Divine Soul 2, Fiend Warlock 6-18
*Base Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 17 Cha
*ASI:* Moderately Armored(+1 Dex)@5, Gift of Alacrity(+1 Cha)@10, +2 [email protected], [email protected]
*Pact Boon:* Pact of the Chain (Pseudodragon)
*Invocations:* Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Lance of Lethargy, Grasp of Hadar, Investment of the Chain Master
*Spells of Note:* Eldritch Blast, Guidance, Magic Stone, Absorb Elements, Bless, Shield, Silvery Barbs, Fear, Hunger of Hadar, Stinking Cloud, Sickening Radience, Danse Macabre, Wall of Fire
*Proficiencies:* Poisoner's Kit
*Equipment:* at least 1 live chicken and a mount

Have you ever thought to yourself something like this?



> DnD is fine I guess, but I just kind of wish I sucked more


That's right, of course you did! The quote is right there after all, anyone can read it. Well, good news then, have I got the build for you! Hold onto your hats and put on your safety goggles, because this build sucks like nothing that has come before it. Let's dive right in.


*Sucking at Support:*

So, we start at level 1 with a level of Divine Soul for the standard stuff: con saves, reaction spells, bless and favored by the gods, but also with two things that are a little unusual. The first is the fangs, and the second is a chicken. As a Dhampir, you're a creature of many gifts, but your fangs are one of the more interesting ones. A number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus you can bite a living creature to do 1d4+Con damage and heal or add it to your next attack or ability check. Now, 1d4 damage on a weapon that's not capable of power attacking or bonus actions is a pretty sorry deal to use in combat, but out of combat it's actually a remarkable tool for getting bonuses to initiative rolls and skill checks, all you need is a live creature to feed off of, and a chicken is as cheap, portable and inexpensive as you can get.

Now, chickens don't exactly have a stat block in dnd but presumably they're a bit short on hit points. To get around this, we'll only bite the chicken non-lethally, which we can do since the bite is a melee attack. Rules as written damage dealt isn't the same as hit points lost, so if a chicken has 1hp and you deal 5 hp of damage, you still gain the benefits of having done 5 damage. In fact, since attacking an unconscious creature is automatically a crit, we can knock the chicken out first then bite it again for a 2d4+Con, which on this build averages +7 to initiative. How this works with massive damage isn't super clear, so a DM can rule any bite kills it, but in that case you can still punch the bird to knock it out and replace it for cheap when its used up.

At level 2 when we switch into fiend warlock, sucking on this chicken will actually do us double-duty. That's because Dark One's Blessing lets us get a sizable amount of temp hp every time we reduce a hostile creature to 0 hp. If we're biting a chicken repeatedly I assume it's going to be hostile, but if not you can always shake the cage to piss it off.

If the chicken dies at an inconvenient time like a heist or dungeon crawl, a good option to leave one enemy alive but unconscious to snack on. If it dies a lot you might find that the Beast Speech invocation is worth taking. Small insects can be found just about anywhere, and most are dumb enough to walk towards the guy dripping with blood


*Sucking During Downtime:*

By the time we reach level 7, we should have two very easy ways to make use of downtime activities. The first is through our familiar, the Pseudodragon. Our Pseudodragon produces a potent venom that can be harvested while it's resting per the rules in the DMG Although the DC is only 11, Investment of the Chain Master makes this poison use our spell save DC. There's no limit to how often you can do this and it only takes 1d6 minutes per attempt, so it's always a good thing to do during a short rest or at the start of a day if you can. Note that we took poisoner's kit proficiency over nature because the rules in xanathars say you can't accidentally poison yourself if you're proficient with a kit. This poison is great to supply allies at low levels, but at higher levels it can be even more potent to provide poisoned arrows to the skeletons you create with Danse Macabre. For this reason, it's good to have a mount to carry your bones for you, though you can create skeletons in the field as needed by eating the flesh of fallen enemies  something perfectly normal for a dhampir I've heard

The second way of making use of downtime is a more familiar strategy. Converting warlock slots into sorcery points and then into sorcerer slots. Despite what some of you might have heard this DOES in fact work, as the technique works by only using sorcery points as an intermediary step to create sorcerer spell slots. The only caveat is that because you max out at 2 sorcery points you can only make 1st level spell slots with this technique, but that leaves you free to cast shield, absorb elements, bless or silvery barbs as much as needed

At level 10 we get a third way of using this time. Gift of Alacrity is a great conc-free long term buff to put on the whole party. Even if your DM doesn't allow the previous trick, this is still usually completely on the table


*Sucking in Combat:*

Alright, combat is the main pillar of the game so lets not skimp on this. As a warlock, your main role in a battle is throwing down one concentration spell then spamming eldritch blast. The most effective way to do this is through "microwaving", i.e. using an aoe hazard spell and then repeatedly blasting the enemy back into said hazard, triggering the effect both when they enter and when they start their turn. Sickening Radiance is the spell that gave this trick its name, but Wall of Fire, Stinking Cloud and Hunger of Hadar are also great for this. Note by the way that while Hunger of Hadar blocks light, it does not block darkvision, so this is a great choice if you want to avoid the annoying parts of darkness builds.

In addition to these spells, control invocations like repelling blast and lance of lethargy are great for repositioning enemies, but special mention goes to Grasp of Hadar. As a dhampir with a climb speed, you can use this to climb up walls and whip enemies 10 feet into the air, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage and knocking them prone. When you're doing this, a good practice is to go prone at the end of your turn and stand up at the start of your next one. Because of spider climb you won't fall, and planking has the added bonus of imposing disadvantage on ranged attack against you, which at 15 feet up will be all of them.

Having a mount will help you keep enemies in the suck zone in wide open terrain, but your horse or donkey isn't the only pet that's going to be actively helping you in combat. There's an added bonus to the pseudodragon familiar. In addition to having 10 feet of blindsight, the pseudodragon also has limited telepathy, which unlike regular telepathy explicitly lets it project images in a creature's head. This means it can serve as the party's eyes in many situations provided it's within 100 feet, either providing reliable darkvision or blindsight as needed. It can also serve as a discount version of Rary's Telepathic bond if you need to communicate to allies. It can also grapple and carry small allies including you up into the air. Crawford has stated on twitter multiple times that this does not hinge on carrying capacity, but with it having a 45-pound carrying capacity, and you having free control over your character's weight and appearance at character creation, it should be able to carry you along with a wand, a shield and breastplate as long as your chosen form is under 18 pounds

----------


## Asura2468

> *The Leech*
> snip


i love this :D its really creative and sounds like a lot of fun

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## x3n0n

@LudicSavant, I don't know why my search-fu kept failing me, but I had been searching for this one for a long time: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...2&postcount=18




> Okay. Here's a Goliath ice-armored TWF/grappler tank build that takes advantage of Goliath's synergy with Armor of Agathys... but never had stat mods suitable for a caster or half-caster prior to Tasha's.
> 
> Nothing wildly overpowered or anything. Just effective, fun, and a little different.
> 
> The Dancer of the Boreal Valley
> Goliath Oath of Conquest 20


Do you think it "qualifies" for this thread? It even has "fun" and "effective" in your abstract. :)

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## strangebloke

> Yup. The reason I called this the "veteran" is that they have the hallmarks of real experience. Predicting the enemy's movement, choosing the field of battle, surprising the enemy, and taking them out before they have a chance to react. Really I do think Bugbear is probably the most on-brand here, but frankly its hard to find good art of bugbears and also they're not suitable for every campaign.
> 
> The one caveat here is that this character is a little fragile. Uncanny dodge can't be used if you're doubling on sneak attack, and you don't have any defensive features besides high(ish) AC, which won't scale amazingly into the late game. You can heal with second wind which helps more than most people think, but still isn't enough to keep you alive if you get dogpiled. So you do need to be aggressive and/or have support to keep you alive while you're taking the enemy out, and sometimes you'll want to hang back and shoot people with a shortbow.
> 
> The Strength version of this build does a lot better on defense. You can have 21 AC pretty fast via plate and defense (no need for superior technique if you don't get ambush) and you can easily work in a couple barbarian levels for rage damage reduction.


Just bumping my own build here, because in hindsight I somehow missed the MPMM Earth Genasi. What a great race for this build! I daresay its probably the best. You don't have something to use your bonus action on every turn, so blade ward is basically free damage resistance, and Earth Genasi get PWT on top of this, which makes your stealth a truly insane +24.5 at level 7. So you're handily covering the build's greatest flaw (fragility) while also empowering your core concept. It's pretty much everything you could want.

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## Gignere

> Just bumping my own build here, because in hindsight I somehow missed the MPMM Earth Genasi. What a great race for this build! I daresay its probably the best. You don't have something to use your bonus action on every turn, so blade ward is basically free damage resistance, and Earth Genasi get PWT on top of this, which makes your stealth a truly insane +24.5 at level 7. So you're handily covering the build's greatest flaw (fragility) while also empowering your core concept. It's pretty much everything you could want.


Rage doesnt work with heavy armor, will need to downgrade to half plate.

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## MisterD

> Rage doesnt work with heavy armor, will need to downgrade to half plate.


So Heavy Armor is D&D answer to anger management?

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## RogueJK

> So Heavy Armor is D&D answer to anger management?


_Okay, we're about to head into this touchy diplomatic negotiation.  Katrina, pray for Guidance.  Ethan, put on your charming smile, but please try not to seduce anyone.  Rognar, strap on your plate armor "security blanket"... we don't want your temper to screw it up like last time._

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## stoutstien

> Rage doesnt work with heavy armor, will need to downgrade to half plate.


To be ffaaaiirrr you can rage in H armor. You just get none of the benefits.

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## strangebloke

> Rage doesnt work with heavy armor, will need to downgrade to half plate.


I'm a bit confused. First of all, I'm talking about my 'veteran' build upthread, which is a rogue/bm multiclass. There's no rage involved at all, the BSP resistance comes from Earth Genasi's BA Blade Ward cast. Secondly, the 'main' build I work with for most of the post is dexterity based and uses light armor, not heavy armor. 

I probably should have mentioned that BW does require a free hand, which makes things a little difficult sometimes, (except on turn 1, where you can cast BW and then draw your weapon) but my point about Earth Genasi being a great race for the build still stands.

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## x3n0n

> I probably should have mentioned that BW does require a free hand, which makes things a little difficult sometimes, (except on turn 1, where you can cast BW and then draw your weapon)


Can you

Action: Attack
no action required: drop weapon
BA: _blade ward_
free object interaction: pick up weapon

?

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## strangebloke

> Can you
> 
> Action: Attack
> no action required: drop weapon
> BA: _blade ward_
> free object interaction: pick up weapon
> 
> ?


technically? yes. But then you will wish you were a monk for deflect missiles as the DM throws a book at your head.

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## Gignere

> I'm a bit confused. First of all, I'm talking about my 'veteran' build upthread, which is a rogue/bm multiclass. There's no rage involved at all, the BSP resistance comes from Earth Genasi's BA Blade Ward cast. Secondly, the 'main' build I work with for most of the post is dexterity based and uses light armor, not heavy armor. 
> 
> I probably should have mentioned that BW does require a free hand, which makes things a little difficult sometimes, (except on turn 1, where you can cast BW and then draw your weapon) but my point about Earth Genasi being a great race for the build still stands.


Your quoted section said the strength version will be in 21 AC with plate and you can rage on top of that.

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## strangebloke

> Your quoted section said the strength version will be in 21 AC with plate and you can rage on top of that.


That wasn't in the bit you quoted. But sure, if you want to also rage you'll take a hit of 1 to your AC, the wording was a little uncelar.

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## Amechra

> To be ffaaaiirrr you can rage in H armor. You just get none of the benefits.


Funnily enough, by RAW you _do_ get any Rage benefits you'd get from your subclass. So if you don't care about getting a damage bonus (or getting advantage on Strength checks/saves), you can play a Bear Totem barbarian in full plate, giving you high AC _and_ resistance to all non-psychic damage.

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## Gignere

> Funnily enough, by RAW you _do_ get any Rage benefits you'd get from your subclass. So if you don't care about getting a damage bonus (or getting advantage on Strength checks/saves), you can play a Bear Totem barbarian in full plate, giving you high AC _and_ resistance to all non-psychic damage.


This was overruled by the devs, so even subclass features that rely on rage doesnt work in heavy armor.

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## Amechra

> This was overruled by the devs, so even subclass features that rely on rage doesnt work in heavy armor.


This is my stance on that ruling.

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## BerzerkerUnit

Artificer 2/Genielock 1
Genie Vessel, Duplicate Magic Item: Bag of Holding, Homunculus

1/day, AOE banish to Astral Plane with no save.

----------


## Dalinar

Been trying to figure out how to finagle certain things together lately. Dragon Fear got a bump with Fizban's, since Dragonborn in general are now a significantly stronger option, and it can be used more liberally with the way they're written. I think most of us think of Conquest Paladin when we think of fear effects, and I've posted my take on that a few pages back in this thread, but there's another class that's arguably even more effective with Dragon Fear: the Fey Wanderer, a Ranger which wants some CHA anyway due to adding WIS to CHA skill checks. Fey Wanderers can be incredible faces; the question is, how strong a face can we make?

*Spoiler: big image*
Show



The Sylvan Advocate
_I speak for the trees... and the trees are not happy._

The Sylvan Advocate is a mix of three subclasses: Hexblade Warlock, Fey Wanderer Ranger, and either Glamour or Eloquence Bard (I'm going Glamour, but both are good options). That's a weird set of flavors to mesh; I think the Sylvan Advocate probably started by being lured into the Feywild (or the mundane wild) by a cursed weapon of some kind, grew to love it there, and eventually returned to the Material Plane with a mission to prevent ecological catastrophe.

*Race:* Gem Dragonborn. Metallic is probably the overall strongest option for most people, but I decided to lean into the MAD with this build, which means we're not doing well on CON, which means its saving throws are a little less harsh. Pick your favorite Dragonborn type, though.
*Class:* We're trying to hit several key levels: Fey Wanderer 3, Fey Wanderer 7, Glamour Bard 3, Hexblade 1-2. I'm not 100% on what order, but I'm leaning Hexblade 1-2/Fey Wanderer 9/Glamour Bard X.
*Skills:* We're going to have insane CHA checks, so try to pick up the CHA skills as well as obvious ones like Perception.
*Stats/Feats:* Two ways to go about this part: you can go all the way in and grab only 10 CON, or you can hedge a little bit and get 12 or maybe even 14. I'm going to assume the 10 CON option, which looks like this: 8/14/10/8/16/17. Yes, we're a Ranger that's primarily CHA. Feels weird to me, too. The reason for all this is we want an odd Charisma so that we can pull out Dragon Fear at some point and have an 18 CHA. If that sounds like too many eggs in one basket, go 8/14/12/8/16/16 and use Dragon Fear and another half-feat to bump your CON. Coward.  :Small Wink: 

*Progression*:
Not going to lie, this character concept seems like a slow starter no matter how I envision it. So be okay with that.

*Spoiler: wall of text*
Show

There are many ways to peel this particular orange, but here's what I think I'd do. Start Hexblade 2. Medium armor and shield proficiency along with the Shield spell will help keep us alive despite our low CON, and we won't feel hampered by our 14 DEX if we need to use a weapon at any point. Go Agonizing and Repelling Blast, unless you want to pick up more skill proficiencies via Beguiling Influence. This will at least give us a decent baseline thing to do in combat at all levels while we focus on upping our utility game.

At 3, we're grabbing our first Ranger levels, and staying in Ranger until we're Hexblade 2/Fey Wanderer 7. Favored Foe works with Eldritch Blast, which is a nice little substitute for Hex, and Deft Explorer gives us an expertise option; pick your favorite CHA skill, of course. Ranger 2 lets us choose a fighting style; Defense seems like the obvious choice here. We also get more Shield slots I mean spell slots.

At 5, because our primary attack option is Eldritch Blast, we get a nice little damage bump regardless of our class. Hitting Ranger 3 gives us a bag of goodies; unfortunately one of them, Dreadful Strikes, is useless to us for the moment, because it requires a weapon attack. However, getting Charm Person as a known spell is great for our purposes, and Otherworldly Glamour makes us an amazing face. How amazing? Depending on your background choices, we have proficiency in multiple CHA skills, and expertise in one (up to you which one). Our proficiency bonus is 3, our CHA is 3, and our WIS is 3, meaning we're rocking a +12 in our best CHA skill, a +9 in any others we're proficient in, and a +6 if we missed proficiency in one. Lastly, we get our bonus Dragonborn racial ability. Gem Flight for me, maybe you took something different.

Oh, and at 6, we hit Fey Wanderer 4, and get Dragon Fear. So bump all those CHA checks up by 1. Dragon Fear itself is merely okay at this point; we need Beguiling Twist to really make it shine, so for now use it as a defensive tool if someone tries to get up in your face. 7 gives us Extra Attack, though Eldritch Blast is still going to be better 99% of the time, and second-level Ranger spells. You have good WIS, though your CHA is better now; pick your favorites. 8 is not super exciting, unless a mobility bump on top of our already existing Gem Flight and Misty Step sounds appealing.

9 is our next big power spike. Our PB goes up 1, so those CHA checks get even more ridiculous (+15 on our expertise choice, +11 on proficiencies). We are Hexblade 2/Fey Wanderer 7, and that means Beguiling Twist. This ability is incredibly spicy and I don't see people talk about it enough. Advantage on saving throws vs charm and frighten is nice, but more importantly, if a creature within 120 feet of you succeeds on a saving throw vs charm or frighten, you can, with your reaction, force a different creature to also make a saving throw against charm or frighten. They can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns... and if they succeed, you can trigger Beguiling Twist again, provided your reaction is available again. So we've got Dragon Fear, with its DC of 16 by my count, hitting potentially very many targets, and if a few succeed, well, we've got a backup shot now at DC 15. And we can do that combo four times per long rest. (Side note: might not be worth doing every time, since you also have Shield competing for your reaction. Think carefully.)

Fey Wanderer 8 gives us another ASI. Bump WIS for better WIS skill checks, Ranger spellcasting, and Beguiling Twist. +16.

Fey Wanderer 9 is mostly there to give us Summon Fey. There's a pretty good argument that the way to play Fey Wanderer is to rush to 9 for this spell (or 11 to get a non-concentration version) and throw everything else into full caster to upcast it. I sort of get the logic, though I won't be leaning full into that. However, after this point, we're level 11 and we still could be a better face. So between that and having Summon Fey now, let's go Bard! (Oh yeah, Eldritch Blast hits three times now.)

So there are two standout options to me for this: Eloquence is the premier face subclass, since it evens out rough patches in dice rolls. However, our minimum roll is literally 17 in our best skill (and we'll be getting two more expertises with it), so it almost seems to me like some of the power of that ability is wasted. Glamour, on the other hand, does something neat I'd like to highlight, so we'll go that way.

At level 12 we are Hexblade 2/Fey Wanderer 9/Bard 1. Bardic Inspiration is a solid support ability, and Bards get some neat low-level spell options; pick your favorites.

Level 13. Bard 2. Here's another wild one. So for starters, our net caster level has hit 7, meaning we can now upcast Summon Fey to 4th level, doubling its attack capabilities. Our PB has hit 5, so that's a +18 in our CHA expertise of choice (4 WIS, 4 CHA, 10 expertise), and another fear bomb per long rest. Finally, we have Jack of All Trades. Up to this point we've probably been missing proficiencies in certain skills because we've been grabbing CHA skills instead; it's late coming, but this makes up for quite a bit of that. A WIS skill for us with no investment is now +6; a CHA skill with no proficiency is now a +10, if we somehow haven't picked up all the CHA skills along the way. Song of Rest also comes at this level, though it's basically a ribbon for us.

Level 14, Bard 3. Enthralling Performance is a pretty ridiculous noncombat ability. Spend a minute performing, and you can charm up to CHA-mod audience members and make them advocate for you. Oh, and it involves a save. Against charm. Beguiling Twist, anyone? You can squeeze an extra charm out of the whole situation, though it perhaps wouldn't be as long-lasting. Oh, and Mantle of Inspiration lets you use your inspiration dice to spam temp HP and reaction movement, which is another criminally undersold ability. Granted the temp HP is pretty small relative to what we're dealing with this late in the game, but hey, you can move your allies out of harm's way.

If you've somehow made it this far? Level 15 goes to Bard 4. Bump WIS. You now have 20 WIS and 18 CHA. You have three expertises, which are probably Persuasion, Deception, and Intimidation if I had to guess (though maybe you took Performance instead?). +19. 

At this point you've got a choice between two of the following three things: maxing CHA, Fey Wanderer 11 for concentrationless Summon Fey, or Bard 7. I'm going with the former two just by way of example.

Level 16 gives Rangers Tireless, which is a source of temp HP and the ability to drop exhaustion levels on short rests; as well as Nature's Veil, a nigh-spammable invisibility tied to your bonus action. Great way to stay alive or get advantage. 

Level 17 maxes our proficiency bonus. +21. Six fear bombs per long rest. Six _everything_ per long rest. Fey Reinforcements is another really strong ability that I'm not sure I need to go over and this is really long already. Level 18 is Ranger 12, maxing our CHA. +22, as far as I'm aware, is the highest possible bonus in basically anything? Barring stuff that adds dice like maneuvers or Soulknife dice. There isn't much point in going farther into Ranger IMO, so our last two levels go back to Bard: level 19 gives us third level Bard spells (note that Hypnotic Pattern is a charm bomb, and Fear obviously a fear bomb, so more Beguiling Twist opportunities), while level 20 gives us Mantle of Majesty. Spammable Command is not worth sneezing at, but also probably isn't the most impressive thing going on at 20, so eh. 

Our total caster level at 20 is 12, which is to say we got a sixth-level spell slot at 19 as well. We can summon a triple-attacking fairy! Since 12th-level casting doesn't give us any more slots, you could also consider grabbing a third Hexblade level to upgrade those two lonely short-rest slots you've been sitting on your entire career.


Anyway, I partially wrote all this out as a way of thinking it through, and I think it turned out... alright? I mean, it might be worth playing just for the silly skill checks alone.

----------


## strangebloke

> snip.


Seems interesting, nice write up. Glad to see that thread inspired some thought.

if you want to push the numbers even higher for some reason, you could also pick up superior technique:commanding presence for an extra oomph once every short rest.

For flavor.... I don't know. It would perform fine, but it sort of feels like this is two character concepts grafted together at the waist. The fearbombs are great but you can't mix them in with your eldritch blasts, which you've invested a whole level into, and they also want you to be positioned aggressively to hit as many as possible with your fear nova, which you're not going to be wanting to be doing as a moderately low HP/AC character. You do have shield there I suppose.

Not trying to diss on your build! but personally I'd ditch the hexblade levels, and use druidic warrior fighting style to pick up shillelagh and guidance. IMO you don't need to pump charisma just for Dragon Fear, since its more of a room-clearer than a single target debuff. High level enemies will often be fully immune to fear anyway so there's no point trying to keep up with that particular race. So I'd go 8/14/14/8/16/15 then grab dragon fear and boost CHA at level 4. Fight with staff and shield, be plenty tanky.

....Way less damage, and arguably less survivable, but it feels more 'correct' if that makes sense.

----------


## Dalinar

> Seems interesting, nice write up. Glad to see that thread inspired some thought.
> 
> if you want to push the numbers even higher for some reason, you could also pick up superior technique:commanding presence for an extra oomph once every short rest.
> 
> For flavor.... I don't know. It would perform fine, but it sort of feels like this is two character concepts grafted together at the waist. The fearbombs are great but you can't mix them in with your eldritch blasts, which you've invested a whole level into, and they also want you to be positioned aggressively to hit as many as possible with your fear nova, which you're not going to be wanting to be doing as a moderately low HP/AC character. You do have shield there I suppose.
> 
> Not trying to diss on your build! but personally I'd ditch the hexblade levels, and use druidic warrior fighting style to pick up shillelagh and guidance. IMO you don't need to pump charisma just for Dragon Fear, since its more of a room-clearer than a single target debuff. High level enemies will often be fully immune to fear anyway so there's no point trying to keep up with that particular race. So I'd go 8/14/14/8/16/15 then grab dragon fear and boost CHA at level 4. Fight with staff and shield, be plenty tanky.
> 
> ....Way less damage, and arguably less survivable, but it feels more 'correct' if that makes sense.


Sure! Like I said, lots of ways to peel the orange. Part of it was that I just really wanted to hit that ridiculous +22 number--and therefore wanted to max both CHA and WIS, which involved some sacrifices in other stats, which in turn made Hexblade appealing--but it's really not needed, and what you outlined definitely sounds more practical for an actual player character. I definitely went for sacrificing practicality in the name of pushing limits, and I tried to be explicit about that.

Hope that makes things make sense!

----------


## Llez

*The Galaxy Monk*
(I couldn't find a fitting image :c)

I was poking around and came across a fun cross class idea that seems to be both fun and thematic; Shifter, Stars Druid 2/Astral Self Monk 8. Why those levels? Because 10 is a nice number, but 2/2 is when it technically comes 'online'. Anyways; What this gets you is basically 3 forms you can shift into depending what you need done.

Chalice form lets you toss out empowered healing words if people are taking too many hitsArcher form lets you get some ranged attacks if something is too far away/flyingDragon form lets you do the fun stuff; Wisdom grappling and punching/easy concentration

That last part is the fun/gimmick part of the build, by using the racial ability you get advantage on wisdom checks (if you need it), astral form lets you use wisdom in place of strength for unarmed hits and str/dex checks(like grappling!), and dragon constellation makes it so you cant roll under a 10+modifier when its active on...*wisdom checks*! So you get advantage on your wisdom based grappling while its up which is both hilarious and effective. It also allows you to drop an easily maintained Faerie Fire on enemies for advantage on attacks too. So this, on top of being fun, lets you SAD it up and just kind of focus on wisdom since it increases both offense and defense for melee and casting.

On to the question/discussion part of the post however; I'm not totally sure if it should just be stars 2/astral x or if there's a better split/if its worth going into druid for more spells. One more level in druid would let you grab someone with your *mind fists* and then drag them through Spike Growth but, that's one less level towards your martial arts die and other monk things.

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## RogueJK

> *The Galaxy Monk*
> That last part is the fun/gimmick part of the build, by using the racial ability you get advantage on wisdom checks (if you need it), astral form lets you use wisdom in place of strength for unarmed hits and str/dex checks(like grappling!), and dragon constellation makes it so you cant roll under a 10+modifier when its active on...*wisdom checks*!


Seems like fantastic synergy, until you look at it from an action economy standpoint...

Activating Dragon Form is a Bonus Action
Activating Astral Arms is a Bonus Action
Shifting is a Bonus Action.

So unless you have the opportunity to prep before combat, that's 3 full rounds before that combo comes online.

The saving grace is that both Dragon Form and Astral Arms last 10 minutes.  So you can conceivably go into a combat with one or both of those running, when doing something like dungeon crawling or clearing out a building.


Overall, I do like the combo of Stars Druid 2/Astral Self Monk X as a WIS-SAD Monk build.  You've got WIS-based melee from your Astral Arms, along with some decent WIS-based ranged options through Druid cantrips and Guiding Bolt, while also giving you access to some uses of your otherwise unused Concentration with stuff like Faerie Fire and Entangle (and taking Fey Touched for either Bless or Hex is a solid option to stack on top too).  

Sort of like the oft-mentioned Cleric 1/Monk X combo, taken a step further.

----------


## RogueJK

*Kobold Natureldritch Blaster*

I've been rolling around this combo in my head for a little while now, as an option for a ranged caster with some forced movement options, without playing the stereotypical Repelling/Grasping Eldritch Blaster Warlock.  Not as optimized as an Eldritch Blaster and takes longer than just Level 2 to come online, but still a viable ranged attacker plus an almost-full caster.  Especially in Tier 2 play.

I had previously built the concept with an Arcana Cleric 1 dip, but the release of MotM's updated Kobold now allows it to work even without the Arcana Cleric dip, thanks to their access to a WIS-based Sorcerer cantrip as a racial ability.

It looks something like this:

*MotM Kobold Swarmkeeper Ranger 3 or 4/Stars Druid X*
Likely starting Stars Druid to 3 or 4 -> Ranger 3 or 4 -> Stars Druid X

STR 8
DEX 13+1
CON 15
INT 10
WIS 15+2
CHA 10
Wear medium armor and use a shield, but keep your hand free for casting.
ASIs: Fey Touched (+1 WIS, Hex), Resilient CON, +2 WIS 
Ranger Fighting Style: Defense (or Druidic Warrior if you want additional Druid cantrips)
Racial Cantrip: WIS-based Chill Touch (or other ranged attack roll cantrips like Fire Bolt or Ray of Frost are also options)
Druid Cantrips: Guidance*, Thorn Whip, Create Bonfire, utility cantrip(s)
Ranger Cantrip: Mage Hand*
Useful Spells: Hex*, Spike Growth, Moonbeam, Wall of Fire


Your default ranged attack combo will be Chill Touch + Archer Form.  This gives you two ranged attack rolls per turn, one doing scaling Xd8 and the other doing 1d8+WISMOD until Druid 10 when it becomes 2d8+WIS.  Your Gathered Swarm ability gives you the option on either one of these hits with doing either an extra 1d6 damage or attempting 15' forced movement each turn.  You also have access to Hex, which you can Concentrate on to add a further 1d6 damage to both attacks per turn.  Or you can concentrate on Favored Foe for an extra 1d4 damage per turn, for times when you don't want to use a spell slot or your daily free Hex casting, or the Bonus Action to shift Hex.

You also have access to Guiding Bolt, both with spell slots as well as with several free castings per day, for times when you want a slightly bigger ranged punch with your Action than just a cantrip.  Hex and Gathered Swarm will apply to this too, since it's still an attack roll.

Similar to Repelling/Grasping Eldritch Blast, Gathered Swarm's 15' of forced movement is useful to combo with various hazard spells that trigger when a creature enters the area, like your own Create Bonfire, Moonbeam, and Wall of Fire, or the party Cleric's Spirit Guardians, or similar.  Or for Spike Growth's 2d4 damage for each 5' of movement within.

Speaking of forced movement and Spike Growth, you can also swap in Thorn Whip as your cantrip Action when you're at closer ranges and want a 15' pull, giving you the option for both a 15' pull with Thorn Whip and a 15' push/pull with Archer Form+Gathered Swarm in the same turn.  This combos really well with Spike Growth for up to 12d4 additional damage in a turn from the 30' total forced movement, on top of Thorn Whip and Archer Form's initial damage.

Create Bonfire will also sometimes be a good substitute for Chill Touch, depending on enemy positioning.  You can drop a Bonfire to catch one or more enemies in it, and then use your Bonus Action Archer+Swarm to shove yet another enemy up to 15' into the Bonfire to trigger the damage on them too.

Moonbeam could also be handy, since it triggers both when an enemy enters the area for the first time on a turn as well as when they *start* their turn within the area.  So you can combo Archer Form+Gathered Swarm's shove with Moonbeam by using your Action to cast/move Moonbeam directly behind an enemy, then BA Archer Form+Gathered Swarm to shove them backwards into the Moonbeam, triggering damage immediately from entering the Moonbeam, plus a second tick of damage on the enemy's turn for starting their turn within the Moonbeam, plus the added damage from the Archer Form hit.  That's up to 4d10+1d8+WISMOD damage to one enemy in a round with a basic Archer Form attack and 2nd level Moonbeam, with added damage from upcasting Moonbeam.

Your Ranger levels also give you some additional higher level spell slots for upcasting spells like Moonbeam, Hex, Call Lightning, and Summoning spells.

----------


## Llez

> Seems like fantastic synergy, until you look at it from an action economy standpoint...
> 
> Activating Dragon Form is a Bonus Action
> Activating Astral Arms is a Bonus Action
> Shifting is a Bonus Action.
> 
> So unless you have the opportunity to prep before combat, that's 3 full rounds before that combo comes online.
> 
> The saving grace is that both Dragon Form and Astral Arms last 10 minutes.  So you can conceivably go into a combat with one or both of those running, when doing something like dungeon crawling or clearing out a building.
> ...


Shoot, i missed that _specifically starry form_ is a bonus action, normal wild shape is just a normal action. So i guess the game plan would be to always activate the astral form, then activate stars as needed depending on the encounter. You can always do all the actions but the starry form lets you spec towards one thing or another on the fly giving you some flexibility. The shifter bonus is mostly a bonus and stacks nicely.

----------


## strangebloke

> snip


Astral monk is something that's _so_ cool and flavorful and I really want to love this build but unfortunately it feels a bit anemic. Combining 2-3 'super modes' just to win grapples feels a bit sad. If I ever play in a campaign with some monk buffs though, this is an auto-lock.



> snip


This is pretty solid, yeah. Druids really want a reliable auto-attack, since they're otherwise so dependent on powerful concentration spells that prevent most of their spell list from seeing use.

----------


## Dalinar

> *Spoiler: Exploiting Stunning Strike*
> Show
> 
> - Per PHB pg195, *Grapple and Shove attempts against Incapacitated creatures automatically succeed*.   This means that despite your 8 Strength, you can grab your stunned victim and use your speed boosts to pull 'em aaaall the way across the map.  Or you could Monk-run up a wall and suplex them for action-economy-free damage and prone.  Or you could cheese grater someone over a Bonfire (that they automatically fail saves against) or Spirit Guardians or Spike Growth or Sickening Radiance or whatever.  And then _everyone else in your party can do that too._
> 
> - It doesn't actually matter that much if your (or an ally's) Athletics check is low, because it takes an Action to break out of a grapple.  If someone loses a turn to being stunned, then another to breaking a grapple, they're basically done.


Some useful info on grappling as a Monk. Seems to me your best option might be to pump your Stunning Strike effectiveness if you want to grapple. Good thing you gain both accuracy and save DC by pumping WIS as Astral Self!

So I don't have a lot of time to pore over our options, but what are some things we can do to raise our accuracy as an Astral Self Monk? Good sources of advantage? How can we conserve our ki?

----------


## Amechra

> *Good sources of advantage?*


Wildhunt Shifter is your _friend_.

----------


## Dalinar

> Wildhunt Shifter is your _friend_.


I don't have that sourcebook.

*google*

Sorry, I should clarify. My point is that it might be easier to get a Stunning Strike off first, then subsequently do your grapple at a 100% success rate, rather than rely on just having a big grapple check with advantage. So I'm looking for ways to get advantage on the attack so that our Stunning Strike is likelier to work.

In other words, something like this:


*Spoiler: beeg image*
Show



Stun and Run

You are a Kobold. Either Volo's or MOTM will work; Volo's will need to pick up Ritual Caster for Find Familiar or just have your allies give you Pack Tactics or Help, while MOTM can be more flexible but may need backup sources of advantage if you run out of roars.

You are an Astral Self Monk of at least 5th level.

Run up to something (hopefully you have your Arms of the Astral Self out from a prior round), get advantage from either Draconic Cry or Pack Tactics or a Help action or whatever. Hit the thing. Use Stunning Strike. Follow it up with a grapple check. If your stun went off, you have a 100% chance of success, as stunned creatures automatically fail versus grapple. If they succeeded, you still have a decent check due to applying your WIS score to Athletics. 

So now what? You need a way to take advantage of that grapple. Most obvious solution is Spike Growth, so I'm gonna go that route. Fastest way to do that is either Druid 3 or Nature Cleric 3 off the top of my head.

So now your combat looks like this: spike growth in a convenient place and pop out your arms round 1, then do your grapple combo round 2 and shred on the spikes.

---

See what I'm getting at?

----------


## strangebloke

> Some useful info on grappling as a Monk. Seems to me your best option might be to pump your Stunning Strike effectiveness if you want to grapple. Good thing you gain both accuracy and save DC by pumping WIS as Astral Self!
> 
> So I don't have a lot of time to pore over our options, but what are some things we can do to raise our accuracy as an Astral Self Monk? Good sources of advantage? How can we conserve our ki?


The _main_ weakness of monks and astral self specifically is that it doesn't have easy access to synergy for its abilities. Indeed, this has always been a problem for the monk, and the monks that have synergy effects usually want to use multiclassing or non traditional monk builds to get access to them. Shadow monk with blindfighting, Kensei a

There's a few notable magic items like the eldritch claw tattoo, and perhaps more significantly the dragonhide belt or whatever its called. Those are a +1 to attack/damage and stunning strike DC respectively.

Beyond that you've got the same options available to most melee characters. Personally I find it hard to argue against a few levels of either fighter or cleric with a monk. With fighter every level gives you so much you want. 1 gets you extra hp, weapon damage, and a fighting style (superior technique!). 2 levels gives action surge. 3 levels give you battlemaster. (precision attack, ambush, etc.) Then for clerics you can get hyper-efficient concentration spells like bless and shield of faith and divine favor.

----------


## Quietus

> So now your combat looks like this: spike growth in a convenient place and pop out your arms round 1, then do your grapple combo round 2 and shred on the spikes.
> 
> ---
> 
> See what I'm getting at?


Better combo would be popping arms out round 1, attack action, try for a stun on the first hit and grapple with your second attack.  Round 2, drop your spike growth and grate'em like a block of cheese.

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## Llez

> Better combo would be popping arms out round 1, attack action, try for a stun on the first hit and grapple with your second attack.  Round 2, drop your spike growth and grate'em like a block of cheese.


Yeah its all about flexibility, i might have focused on the grappling a bit too much. Probably open any combat by popping the astral arms for that nice wis melee. Too far away? Archer. Dragon buffs basically everything in your kit with concentration, grappling, even just saves. People getting hit too much? Chalice, and so forth. Shifter is also helpful for an emergency boost if you REALLY need it or want to negate the enemies advantage. If combat is going slowly/badly you have enough time to start stacking things as needed. It gives you a lot of options over the kit, and all this flexibility kicks in at level _four_ and you can always do all of the things but you can change your specialty on the fly. I still think it has some value, but maybe needs some poking/adjusting.

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## Jaxtal

I love this thread and all the builds, but there is one I am not seeing. Is there a way to make a good bard archer that comes online before level 10? I have searched a fair amount and everything seems to based around stealing Swiftquiver at level 10. Would love to see a build for this that is solid the whole way through. Thank you in advance!

----------


## meandean

> I love this thread and all the builds, but there is one I am not seeing. Is there a way to make a good bard archer that comes online before level 10? I have searched a fair amount and everything seems to based around stealing Swiftquiver at level 10. Would love to see a build for this that is solid the whole way through. Thank you in advance!


The obvious, boring answer is Hexblade 5, then Bard.

_Swift quiver_ is garbo anyway. Let's say you're a Valor Bard (to be fair, Swords or Whispers are very likely better, but that's the classic build), so yay... you cast this 5th-level spell and make four (non-magical, unless the bow is) longbow attacks. I calculate that, with +8 to hit (level 10, 18 DEX) vs. an AC of 17, you're averaging 21 DPR. Sorry, that should be 21 DP2R, damage per 2 rounds, because _swift quiver_ doesn't do anything on the round you cast it. And while it's up, you can't Inspire, or use your subclass capstone Battle Magic ability, or cast other concentration spells (that's most of your list! you're a Bard!)

Also a 5th-level spell, that requires concentration, and gives non-magical attacks with +8 to hit? _Animate objects_. Except it's 10 attacks, and ends up averaging 40 DPR vs. AC 17. On the first turn the objects attack, not starting in the second like _swift quiver_. And usually, after the first round, they require no further maintenance -- you're combining what they do with your own action and bonus action. Which might, among whatever else you can imagine, include using _dissonant whispers_ or _command_ to give the objects another 10 opportunity attacks, or maybe your teammate has an ability that can do that. Alternatively, you could opt for _synaptic static,_ which on an often-failed save does ~28 damage (magical, and of a type almost never resisted) to each of a group of enemies, and renders them ineffective for another round or two afterwards... again, that will all take place on your actual first turn. Needless to say, Bards can literally get any spell in the game, so I could go on.

Of course, you can try to salvage things with archery-related feats, because Bards get so many ASI that it makes sense to use them to make a 5th-level concentration spell have some sort of useful effect. Seriously, why this.

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## stoutstien

> I love this thread and all the builds, but there is one I am not seeing. Is there a way to make a good bard archer that comes online before level 10? I have searched a fair amount and everything seems to based around stealing Swiftquiver at level 10. Would love to see a build for this that is solid the whole way through. Thank you in advance!


No matter what I'd avoid swift quiver. Past that there's a bunch of different ways you can pull off this concept depending on how focused you want to be on using the bow compared to spells and what optional rules are in play. A whisper bard/soulknife combo has a pretty seamless mix at most points or a valor hex pact of the blade combo if you want multiple attacks rather than one big one.

For a example a changeling whisper bard/soul knife has a good mix of damage, espionage/information gathering, utility, mobility, general spell casting, and bullet proof ability checks to work with about any party.

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## Eriol

> I love this thread and all the builds, but there is one I am not seeing. Is there a way to make a good bard archer that comes online before level 10? I have searched a fair amount and everything seems to based around stealing Swiftquiver at level 10. Would love to see a build for this that is solid the whole way through. Thank you in advance!


Both of the previous replies unfortunately miss the boat: the OP wants to play an _archer bard_.  The "suggestions" you have either are pure bard (ditch archer) that summons, or a hybrid bard... that doesn't archer either.

My suggestion is either do a Dex-fighter Samurai that _flavors_ as a singer/musician (but isn't a bard), or you accept that it's underpowered and go for a valor bard (or whatever) that focuses on their archery and just _chooses_ actions that maybe aren't 100% ideal, but work for the concept.  Or if somebody else has an _actual_ bard/archer (even a multiclass) that's relatively great, awesome, but I'm not the best "builder" out there either.  But I get concepts, and to my reading, neither of the two previous posts go for the _concept_ of dancing/singing/playing archer.

And maybe DPR isn't the focus.  Is it buffs?  You're singing out your buffs, throwing in the occasional shot?  Maybe that's a better focus.

----------


## stoutstien

> Both of the previous replies unfortunately miss the boat: the OP wants to play an _archer bard_.  The "suggestions" you have either are pure bard (ditch archer) that summons, or a hybrid bard... that doesn't archer either.
> 
> My suggestion is either do a Dex-fighter Samurai that _flavors_ as a singer/musician (but isn't a bard), or you accept that it's underpowered and go for a valor bard (or whatever) that focuses on their archery and just _chooses_ actions that maybe aren't 100% ideal, but work for the concept.  Or if somebody else has an _actual_ bard/archer (even a multiclass) that's relatively great, awesome, but I'm not the best "builder" out there either.  But I get concepts, and to my reading, neither of the two previous posts go for the _concept_ of dancing/singing/playing archer.
> 
> And maybe DPR isn't the focus.  Is it buffs?  You're singing out your buffs, throwing in the occasional shot?  Maybe that's a better focus.


Nothing about The Bard is mandatory dancing and singing so that's a conceptual restraint that you are adding.
 By the Numbers there's nothing actually wrong with a pure whisper bard archer. You hit as hard as a rogue enough rounds that you'd probably not notice a gap and can grab the standard CBE/archery/SS and still max out Cha. Tack on holy weapon, TT, or whatever and you'll meet any baseline that people insist on using for damage.

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## strangebloke

> I love this thread and all the builds, but there is one I am not seeing. Is there a way to make a good bard archer that comes online before level 10? I have searched a fair amount and everything seems to based around stealing Swiftquiver at level 10. Would love to see a build for this that is solid the whole way through. Thank you in advance!


Swift Quiver is just one spell that boosts your output. I'm not as negative on it as others are, but its not the only thing bards can do. For a relatively simple archer bard, consider the following:



*The Raven's Teeth*
8/14/14/8/12/15
Clineage 
(15 CHA becomes 17)
(take elven accuracy as the bonus feat, CHA becomes 18)

Level 1 we start with bard because we want to start with bonus proficiencies
Level 2 we dip hexblade for hex warrior and hex curse, though 1/sr shield is also good.

After that we go into whispers bad. Whispers lets you trade a BI for sneak attack damage, which is a pretty solid damage progression by itself. You have limited BI, but that's okay because you're not trying to attack every round. You're still a bard and you still want to be casting _fear_ or _animate objects_ or similar things. The bow attacks are there to replace your cantrips, not your big leveled spells, and with potentially 5 uses per short rest you'll have enough for that purpose.

And oh yeah! You have hexblade's curse and Elven accuracy, so if you cast something like _faerie fire_ round 1 you can pretty often get a crit on round 2 or 3. 

Now, you may feel conflicted about casting so many _spells_ when you're an _archer_, but this is where your handy 'ol reflavoring stick comes in. Something like animate objects usually uses rocks or ball bearings, but there's no reason you can't animate your quiver  or a bunch of daggers like you're shiro from fate stay night.

Personally I would avoid CBE. You also have other uses for your BA like healing word, mass healing word, animate objects, hexblade's curse, or swift quiver if you eventually take that. If you do take swift quiver, you will probably want sharpshooter as well - its just a good feat even without considering the -5/+10, and you'll have already maxed AC and CHA by the time you get your second ASI at level 9.

And ultimately you're also a whisper bard, something like a Bloodraven. You're a skilled manipulator who can set enemies up for failure, or assasinate enemies from a mile away.

----------


## x3n0n

> 8/14/14/8/12/15
> Clineage 
> (15 CHA becomes 17)
> (take elven accuracy as the bonus feat, CHA becomes 18)


Note that not all DMs will allow Elven Accuracy on a Custom Lineage.
That said, if they don't, it looks like the build would still work fine with any other Cha-boosting half feat (Fey Touched?), just without the tri-vantage boost to Hexblade's Curse crit fishing.

----------


## strangebloke

> Note that not all DMs will allow Elven Accuracy on a Custom Lineage.
> That said, if they don't, it looks like the build would still work fine with any other Cha-boosting half feat (Fey Touched?), just without the tri-vantage boost to Hexblade's Curse crit fishing.


Personally I don't know why you'd allow Clineage but ban taking EA with it. Still, you bring up a good point, and in any case crit-fishing is just there for fun. You don't have the attacks to get good mileage out of HC anyway.

If EA is off the table I would go with Telepathic for flavor. Detect Thoughts without components is a great spymaster ability

----------


## CMCC

> To be ffaaaiirrr you can rage in H armor. You just get none of the benefits.


Misconception. You do get some of the rage benefits of certain subclasses. More TRDSIC than RAW though.

----------


## CMCC

> This was overruled by the devs, so even subclass features that rely on rage doesnt work in heavy armor.


Thats RAI. The rules dont support the conclusion.




> Note that not all DMs will allow Elven Accuracy on a Custom Lineage.
> That said, if they don't, it looks like the build would still work fine with any other Cha-boosting half feat (Fey Touched?), just without the tri-vantage boost to Hexblade's Curse crit fishing.


Thats not a DM thing. WotC weighed in and that was their decision. No racial feats for custom lineage.

----------


## x3n0n

> Thats not a DM thing. WotC weighed in and that was their decision. No racial feats for custom lineage.


Agreed that there is no RAW supporting racial feats on custom lineage and that WotC said that their RAI does not include racial feats on custom lineage.
That said, I think strangebloke may not be far off in saying that at a non-AL table, many DMs that allow custom lineage would allow racial feats to be assigned.

----------


## Dalinar

Custom Lineage using racial feats was a sufficiently common interpretation of the rules (until Crawford shot it down) that every optimizer and their mom was taking CL with Elven Accuracy on anything that was regularly firing off attacks at advantage. Starting with an 18 in a stat AND having both EA and Sharpshooter by 4 is incredibly potent.

----------


## strangebloke

Custom lineage as written can literally represent a full elf while EA can be used by half elves.

Crawford's ruling is stupid.

----------


## Chaos Jackal

Stupid or not, in TCE's December 2021 errata this was added in:



> Custom Lineage (pg. 8). The following sentence has been added to the end of the sidebar, after the hanging list: Your race is considered to be a Custom Lineage for any game feature that requires a certain race, such as elf or dwarf.


So both RAW and RAI apparently, at this stage.

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## strangebloke

> Stupid or not, in TCE's December 2021 errata this was added in:
> 
> So both RAW and RAI apparently, at this stage.


Funny my book doesn't say that.  :Small Tongue: 

I refuse to acknowledge stuff like this. I own the book, it says what it says.

----------


## zariel_paladin

the clockwork beast

trying to add an image, kinda new to this site so have no idea how currently 
6 beast barbarian/14 clockwork soul sorcerer
starting stats: 15+1, 13+1, 14, 10, 8, 12+2
asis: 18 [email protected], 20 [email protected],  tough [email protected], 16 [email protected]

this build is an attempt to build a functional rage mage, who comes online as early as possible and is overall a functional character, my goal is to make something stronger than a straight barbarian, not stronger than a straight sorcerer

level 1: we start as a half elf barbarian, we will be wearing medium armour cause this build is mad as all get out, so our ac should be 16 at this level, which isnt terrible. (if you roll stats or get a belt of giant strength then feel free to pick a different race, we just really need those extra stats)

level 5: at this point we suck a little bit, we are a 3 beast barbarian 2 clockwork sorcerer, our sorcerer levels give us armour of agathys, a couple of free recklesses and not much else, i picked beast barbarian because we arent getting extra attack for a while, so if you start at high levels, a similar build using ancestral guardians is probably reccomended for more aoa shenanigans.

level 11: by this level, we have almost reached full potential, as a barbarian4/sorcerer7.  we have access to high level slots for armour of agathys, bastion of law to nullify damage, and our damaging crown: tiny servant.   i dont see this talked about enough, but you can make a hand crossbow into a tiny servant and have it fire at enemies, in this case, we will have our armour modified so they can pop in and out, giving them full cover when neccesary, i like six (using two fourth level spell slots) as the line between using all our resources and having a good number of free bonus action attacks.   so you are know a beast, as you run around slashing at people with your claws whilst your tiny servants use you as a mobile artillery battery. all the while you punish those who dare to attack you with the powers of lesvistus himself. 

level 20: now this is the fun part, at this level, we finally achieve the vaunted extra attack, we are now the embodiment of calculating fury, we can reckless attack for days with absolutely no penalties, and our armour of agathys casts are dealing 35 damage a pop. also we basically cannot miss, cause we cant go below a 10 on the dice, 

just realised i forgot to even mention bastion of law.... its good, especially with armour of agathys

----------


## Dalinar

Looks like zariel_paladin and I had some similar ideas! Let me show you what's been kicking around in my brain the past few days:

insert picture of a barbarian/warlock here
Frozen Fury

Rage is a great defensive ability. There are a lot of great defensive spells, but you can't cast those while raging. So if we're going to use spells to augment our rage-tanking, we need something you can cast before you hit the rage button, ideally something that takes only an action or lasts a long time or both.

How about Armor of Agathys? Enter Barblock.

For our race and stats: we need Strength as high as possible for our melee offense, Charisma 13+ to take Warlock levels, Constitution as high as possible to survive as long as we can, and Dexterity 14 since we're in medium armor. That's a lot of stats! There's also one feat I particularly want, Polearm Master, for the same reason many martials want it: we want to hit things more often. Great Weapon Master is normally pseudo-mandatory on Barbarians, but I think we can delay it for a little because we want bigger Armor of Agathys casts early and that means focusing on Warlock levels--that is, no Reckless Attack until later in our career. 

Any +2/+1 race (or Variant Human with a half-feat in the relevant stats) can result in this spread: 16/12/16/8/8/14. Mountain Dwarves or Half-Elves can get 14 DEX in exchange for only 13 CHA. Not sure I'd take that trade, to be honest. I expect we'll do a non-zero amount of switch hitting via Eldritch Blast, and it'll feel really bad at only 13 CHA compared to 14. Could always just use javelins, I guess?

Our main specialty is going to be toe-to-toe'ing with the enemy melee, while enemy archers and spellcasters are going to be something more of an issue. Yuan-Ti Pureblood for the improved saving throws against magic is an excellent choice. There's also Hill Dwarf for the extra hit points, hard to go wrong there.

Typical combat should involve softening things up with javelins and Eldritch Blast, then when things get hectic popping Armor of Agathys followed by rage for a sudden burst of tankiness. I'll gloss over non-AoA spell choices, since they're not as relevant to the concept; pick your faves.

Anyway, here's how I expect the progression to go:

At level 1, you're a typical Barbarian with one less AC. Your job is to have a lot of hit points and hit things hard, probably using a glaive or halberd. You'll chuck javelins at things that you can't get to. Life is good.

At level 2, you're a Barb1/Warlock1. My patron of choice for this is Undead. The most obvious martial warlock patron, the Hexblade, doesn't help us that much, since we still need a ton of Strength to do Barbarian things anyway (namely Reckless Attack later, and take advantage of our Rage damage bonus in the more immediate term), or at least a 13 to multiclass. Armor of Agathys is basically a mandatory pickup, it's kind of the whole point of the build, but beyond that try to pick things that will help in situations where Rage will not. Undead gives us Form of Dread, another rage-compatible source of temp HP that also lets us frighten things on a hit. Pop it when your Armor of Agathys runs out.

At level 3, we take Warlock 2, getting us invocations. At this point I'm looking at Eldritch Sight and Fiendish Vigor for out of combat utility and even more temp HP spam respectively. Agonizing Blast is a little worse than usual for us since we're only at 14 CHA, though it might still be worth it if we want to switch-hit a little harder outside javelin range. In any case, there's nothing too critical to pick up quite yet.

At level 4, we get a pact. There's one invocation I really want from Chain and one I really want from Blade. The one I want from Blade is just Thirsting Blade so that we have another attack relatively on time compared to our party members. Chain would instead get us Gift of the Ever-Living Ones to maximize healing from dice. If you've found yourself getting healed a lot and aren't worried about your offensive capabilities, you can take Chain now, but Blade will help us kill things faster during T2 (best defense being a good offense and whatnot), and you can switch to Chain later once we get Extra Attack from Barbarian.

Level 5 is a nice one. Barb1/Warlock 4 means we get an ASI. If you've found yourself needing more in a stat, feel free to just take the +2 here, but I suspect Polearm Master is gonna go farther than most of the things you could do with that. It's basically a discount Extra Attack for us, plus a source of more reaction attacks, so hopefully this level won't feel too bad compared to your martials that just got Extra Attack and your casters that just got Fireball.

Level 6 is another big one. We'll grab Thirsting Blade to have two attacks plus a bonus action attack from our polearm. We have roughly 50 HP by my count, with another 30 temp from two casts of Armor of Agathys on each short rest, then another d10+5 from Form of Dread three times per long rest for another 30. 

At level 7, we're staying Warlock just a little longer to get Grave-touched, which isn't the most exciting feature but does up our damage against weak-to-necrotic foes or when Form of Dread is up. Neat!

Level 8, aka Warlock 7, gives us another invocation and fourth-level slots. That's another 10 temp HP per short rest, more outgoing cold damage against melee, and, I dunno, Tomb of Levistus looks fun? Or you can take Sculptor of Flesh if your party needs Polymorph badly.

We take a break from Warlock levels at 9 to return to our Barbarian roots. Our proficiency bonus goes up, so we get another Form of Dread use (now d10+7 four times per long rest). At this point we have so many sources of temp HP that I think it's safe to use Reckless Attack frequently. The reason I chose this point to take more Barbarian levels is that, per Tasha's, we can switch our pact out at any warlock level that grants us an ASI, which would have been this level. I'd like to switch over to Chain, but I don't want to lose Extra Attack, so we're going to swing back to Barbarian and pick it up.

Level 10 gets us to Barb 3/Warlock 7. Compared to a regular Barbarian, you don't spend as much time raging, which means your subclass doesn't matter as much since it generally just improves your rage. Ancestral Guardian makes things focus you more, Bear Totem makes elemental damage hit you for less, Zealot makes you hit slightly harder and also really easy to Revivify. All are good choices. Your call.

At level 11, when most single-class builds are getting huge power spikes, we're just getting an ASI. Now that we have Reckless Attack, I think Great Weapon Master is likely the play, though again our stat spread makes a +2 tempting as well.

Level 12 is mostly a dead level since we already have Thirsting Blade, but it's necessary to make level 13 happen. We do get ten feet more movement, though!

Level 13 is Barb 5/Warlock 8. Switch to Chain pact and take Gift of the Ever-Living Ones. Having a familiar is a great source of utility that's been discussed to death, but now you regain max HP any time someone rolls dice to heal you. Short resting? Max HP from hit dice. Potions? Max HP from the d4s. Got a Life Cleric in the party? Their Cure Wounds is worth 11+WIS on you, and another 8 per level upcast; their Aura of Vitality is 170 HP over a minute from a third-level slot (2d6 maxed, plus 5 from their subclass feature, ten times). This synergizes so well with the damage resistance and high HP pool of a Barbarian that I'd honestly consider Barb 5/Warlock 3/Barb X, but that's a slightly different character concept. Oh yeah, our PB hit 5, too. Unfortunately Form of Dread doesn't restore HP, technically.

I think at this point we at least want Warlock 9 to maximize the power of our Armor of Agathys. I am not the hugest fan of the rest of Warlock for the purposes of this build, except 11 which gives us a third AoA cast per short rest as well as a sixth-level spell per long rest. Maybe Create Undead? Could also grab Fighter levels along the way, since GOTELO makes Second Wind a more noticeable heal than it otherwise would be.

Anyway, hope you thought this all was cool.

----------


## zariel_paladin

> Looks like zariel_paladin and I had some similar ideas! Let me show you what's been kicking around in my brain the past few days:
> 
> insert picture of a barbarian/warlock here
> Frozen Fury
> 
> Rage is a great defensive ability. There are a lot of great defensive spells, but you can't cast those while raging. So if we're going to use spells to augment our rage-tanking, we need something you can cast before you hit the rage button, ideally something that takes only an action or lasts a long time or both.
> 
> How about Armor of Agathys? Enter Barblock.
> 
> ...


honestly, your build is probably stronger than mine, but i look at your stats (and the amount of temp hp you generate) and think you could benefit from subtracting some points in con, wearing medium armour and sticking with blade pact to grab lifedrinker (and even if you dont do that, wear medium armour, your stealth is bad anyway and it is strictly more ac)

----------


## Neoh

> *SNIP*


I had a very similar build, took a bit of a different approach though, I ended up at Barbarian 3 / Warlock 17.

I felt like Barbarian didn't need to go any higher than 3, the only real benefit being some extra speed and not using an invocation for extra attack, which didn't feel like a problem to me anyway. And if the game lasts until level 20, you end up with 4 spell slots instead of 3. Bear Totem or Ancestral Guardian felt the best to me too. 

As for Warlock, I chose Hexblade with Pact of the Blade. The extra damage and crit on a 19-20 felt better, I don't bother with the charisma thing. I also like the flavour of being able to summon the weapon, especially with Ancestral Guardian. Pact of the Blade allows me to pick Eldritch Smite, since there will be fights where Armor of Agathys isn't really worth to cast. It also allows to spend the spell slot on a crit, with Reckless Attack on a 19-20 crit range, which is always a feels good moment. I pick Relentless Hex for a free bonus action blink with Hexblades Curse, which once again feels really good for a Barbarian. 
Armor of Hexes can deny an enemy's crit, which works pretty nicely with Armor of Agathys. And it synergizes even better with Ancestral Guardian, since it makes the enemy focus fire on you, but now you have a feature to dodge some of the damage.

----------


## Malaketh

> snip Demonweb Monk


I really love this concept and I have a variation question.

How much of a straight up DPR loss would it be if you went bugbear from MotM, drop Con to 14, have a starting Dex of 16 and Wis 17. For ASI's get Fey touched: Gift of Alacrity, 18 Dex, 20 Dex.

Keep the level progression and everything else the same.

You'd still get advantage, just not triple advantage, you'd lose a free darkness, but your opening round would be painful for the enemy.

From a numbers perspective are we looking at a loss? Break even?

Thanks for any input!

----------


## LudicSavant

> I really love this concept and I have a variation question.
> 
> How much of a straight up DPR loss would it be if you went bugbear from MotM, drop Con to 14, have a starting Dex of 16 and Wis 17. For ASI's get Fey touched: Gift of Alacrity, 18 Dex, 20 Dex.
> 
> Keep the level progression and everything else the same.
> 
> You'd still get advantage, just not triple advantage, you'd lose a free darkness, but your opening round would be painful for the enemy.
> 
> From a numbers perspective are we looking at a loss? Break even?
> ...


The much-buffed MotM Bugbear is currently one of the best races for Monk, and would likely make up for sustained DPR losses via the benefits it gets from its first turn burst mechanic (and other handy features).  Especially since that build would be capable of a 6 attack opening salvo, getting +2d6 on all of them.  You could very easily find yourself ending encounters before monsters even get a turn, especially if you're using the Shadow Monk's kit to facilitate ambushes for your party members too.

Of course, the exact results (e.g. loss, break even, gain) would depend on variables like the enemy's initiative, how many turns the combats last, etc.

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## Malaketh

> The much-buffed MotM Bugbear is currently one of the best races for Monk


Thanks for the reply!!!!

Would you change the demonweb build much differently then the way I proposed? The 14 Con is meh and losing a free darkness but I don't know a better route. Unless I go straight Mercy Monk??

----------


## ftafp

*The Vadalis Toxicologist*

*Race:* Human, Mark of Handling
*Class:* Beast Master 5, Hexblade 15
*Progression:* Hexblade 1, Beast Master 1-5, Hexblade 2-15
*Base Stats:* 8 Str, 14 Dex, 13 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis, 17 Cha
*ASI:* Crossbow [email protected], Resilient(+1 Con)@9, Fey Touched(Gift of Alacrity, +1 Cha)@13, +2 [email protected]
*Canny:* Nature
*Fighting Style:* Archery
*Ranger's Companion:* Flying Snake
*Eldritch Invocations:* Eldritch Mind, Investment of the Chain Master, Sculptor of Flesh
*Pact Boon:* Pact of the Chain
*Spells of Note:* Goodberry, Gift of Alacrity, Find Familiar, Cordon of Arrows, Flock of Familiars, Pass Without Trace, Conjure Animals, Polymorph, Danse Macabre
*Proficiencies:* Poisoner's Kit


Poison in 5e has a bad reputation. With a wide slew of creatures not only resistant but outright immune to poison, even some of the most ardent optimizers have written it off as an unusable damage. However, the _toxicity_ does not do the stuff justice. A full 72% of all published creatures have no defenses against poison beyond their Con saves, and even for creatures of CR 20-30 that number only shrinks to a little less than half. True, the saves are often bad and Constitution is often the worst to target, but many poisons offer half damage on a failure and their sheer variety and ease of acquisition means that a single arrow can be game-breakingly dangerous. Thus we come to our build. let's lay things down

We start off pretty bland with Hexblade at level 1. Our weapon of choice is going to be a hand crossbow rather than eldritch blast. This ensures when we start stockpiling poisons later on we have something to apply them to. At level 2 we switch into ranger. Canny in Nature is chosen because even though we have a poisoner's kit proficiency to avoid accidentally poisoning ourselves we are going to be making DC 20 checks regularly so expertise is good to have. We also have Goodberry which we can cast with our warlock slots. It's good to take an hour or two at the start of each day to stock up because goodberries do good healing. At 3 we take the Archery fighting style which will boost our accuracy but the real gem is 3 when we finally get our first pet, the flying snake.

Flying snake is an interesting critter. Despite being a tiny beast with a CR of 1/8, it has an absurdly poisonous bite that not only does 3d4 damage on a hit, but does not permit the target to make a saving throw. It being our companion only strengthens that poison, adding our PB to the damage. Now, with 5 hp a flying snake isn't safe flying into melee to bite, and given how hard a flying snake is to replace you wouldn't want to risk that anyway. Instead, we're going to keep our snake safe and on the sidelines, preferably as far away from a fight as possible, and instead use the poison harvesting rules in the Dungeon Master's Guide to milk it while it's asleep. RAW there's no limit to how much poison a creature can produce and unlike basic poison or the poisons created by poisoner, poisons we extract from creatures can remain on weapons indefinitely, allowing us to apply that poison to bolts for our hand crossbow ahead of time. This means we should have a steady supply of poison bolts that do an extra 3d4+PB poison damage on a hit, and that is just the start of it.

At level 5 we get crossbow expert, which will double our dpr. Ideally we would have had it earlier but sacrifices must be made for more poisons later on. At 6 our offensive prowess is tripled when we get extra attack. We also get Pass Without Trace at this level as well as Cordon of Arrows. Right now we're not going to be wanting to use that spell much, but that will change soon enough. Back into warlock at 7 we get a second pact magic spell slot, and then at 8 everything happens at once.

First, we get pact of the chain, which adds 6 new sources of poison to our repertoire with the Poisonous Snake, the Spider, the Imp, the Quasit, the Pseudodragon, and the Sprite. Combined with Investment of the Chain Master all 6 of these options use our warlock spell save DC, and the familiars with hands can also help in our milking duties. On top of this we gain Flock of Familiars, which allows us to summon multiple varieties of poisonous familiar for an hour, which is plenty of time to get ~20 milkings in after which you can restore the slot with a short rest. Bear in mind that there's no rule saying that different poisons can't be stacked on an arrow. We can use that to turn some of our bolts into darts of instant death. That's not all though. Your pact magic slot can also be used for Pass Without Trace now ensuring you always have the element of surprise, and with Cordon of Arrows. This might seem like an odd spell choice, but not only can the arrows you enchant bear your poisons, but no rule in the spell forbids you from just picking the arrows back up and taking them with you. That means for every casting you stack up, enemies who come near you will need to make one extra dex save or suffer one of our poison darts. Our save may be low, but few monsters have exceptional dexterity.

At level 9 we get another feat. Resilient (Con) will ensure when we get Conjure Animals at 10 nothing is going to break our concentration. Of course, conjure animals adds a whole slew of other poisonous beasts to summon, beasts you can summon a few times at the start of each day and milk for a truly ludicrous variety of poisons, all of which you can stack on your bolts. At 11 we suffer a dead level from hexblade but 12 we get sculptor of flesh, giving us access to the poisons of stronger monsters like giant scorpions and coral snakes. (Technically, half-green dragon brontosauri are also beasts of CR 8 which you should be able to make now and can 16d6 poison damage, _but that's a little cheesy even for this_). Level 12 gives us another ASI, Gift of Alacrity is always welcome on a warlock, if a bit overdue, and 13 gives us Danse Macabre, which is going to boost our offense into the stratosphere

_Now wait,_ you might be saying, _isn't that just a weaker conjure animals?_ and you'd be right that it is normally weaker, but the difference is that danse macabre can summon skeletons, and skeletons have bows and arrows. See where I'm going with this? Plus, in addition to adding your CHA bonus to their hit chance, it also adds it to every single damage roll they make. Considering they can be making as many as 20 poison damage rolls per attack, that is a whopper of a damage booster.

The build goes on beyond this point but I'm tired of writing. I hope you enjoyed reading this as much as I did writing it.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Oh. 

Oh wow.

I knew a forum such as this would be a wonderful and remarkable place to expand my knowledge of possible builds and potential ways to play the game. But I generally did not expect to find a thread such as this so easily and so well kept.

Thank you LudicSavant for keeping this thread organised, as well as posting your own builds. And thank you everyone else for the builds as well. This is going to be a very useful resource for me moving forwards!

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## Chaos Jackal

Make sure to bookmark it, because it'll likely be moving soon, as we're approaching 1500 posts here.

Cheers on that, by the way.

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## MagneticDragon

Oh, there's a limit to the number of pages that can be found on a single thread?

I suppose that makes sense. Thank you for the advice, and bookmarked.

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## CMCC

that poisoner art is fantastic

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## mjp1050

> Oh, there's a limit to the number of pages that can be found on a single thread?


More of a forum tradition than anything. There isn't an actual upper limit; it just keeps the thread from becoming too cluttered.

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## LudicSavant

> More of a forum tradition than anything. There isn't an actual upper limit; it just keeps the thread from becoming too cluttered.


As long as this thread keeps going, I'll keep organizing it on the first page.

----------


## Meatgrinder

Im a DM, and I wanted to ask for some help in building a party of rival adventurers to throw at my group. These rivals, who have 4 level 8 dudes in their party, are expected to be punching up when facing the PCs. Theyll either be outnumbered or facing opponents who are higher level than them.

But Team Rocket (as the rivals will henceforth be called) have a couple of advantages: firstly, Team Rocket is always going to have a preparation edge on the PCs. Secondly, the PCs in my group are a bunch of filthy casuals. Team Rocket, on the other hand, will be hyper-optimized out the _wazoo_. (Dont worry, everyone in the group has agreed to this. Im not a monster.)

With that in mind, here are the builds that I am currently thinking of, taken mostly from this thread:

A Valkyrie Paladin (VHuman Oath of Vengeance 8, with gauntlets of ogre strength and 18 Charisma). This guy is here to boost the saves of the rest of the party and deliver brutal smites from the top of their summoned Steed.

A Regenerator (VHuman Life Cleric 8, with aberrant dragonmark and Azorius background). This one is for keeping the group alive when hit by massive burst-damage, tanking generally, emergency counter-spelling, and providing the all-important Spirit Guardians, which in this party is even stronger than usual. (We'll come back to that one later.)

A support bard (VHuman College of Eloquence Bard 8, with the Telekinetic feat and the Rakdos background). Here's where things get _spicy._ With the boosts to Bardic Inspiration that this guy gets, the party's saves (especially around the paladin) go from good to ironclad. They have all the traditional support spells, but Rakdos gets them Wall of Fire. As has been previously pointed out, this is one of the best boss-shredding spells in the game, and our simple bard plans to exploit it as much as possible. The Telekinetic feat lets them shove enemies through the wall, as well as being able to do general repositioning. Plus, they can be a dedicated Counterspeller.

An Ancestral Nightmare (Simic ancestral guardian barbarian 7/Rogue 1, expertise in athletics, Magic item tbd.) This guy right here makes the rest of the party work with brutal efficiency. They can:
Knock opponents prone to give the paladin advantageGrapple foes to keep them inside the range of Spirit GuardiansForce grappled opponents through the Wall of Fire to stack even more damageTarget ranged enemies to mark them and force disadvantage when attacking anyone but the scary tentacle man
--------------------

That's what I've got so far. Here are my questions:
1. Should any of the above builds be replaced by a Nuclear Wizard? I worry that Team Rocket is lacking in ranged burst damage.
2. What uncommon magic items could be used to increase the effectiveness of the team?
3. Does anyone have a better plan than mine? I threw this together on a whim, I have no idea if it works or not  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## RogueJK

*Half Orc Death Knight (Greataxe Edit)*

*Rule #1 of Crit-Fishing: Have Something Worth Fishing For!*

So, like a crit-fishing Rogue or Paladin, this build is intended to leverage added damage dice for big critical hits, using the Half-Orc's Savage Attacks, supplemented by the Undead Bladelock's Grave Touched and Eldritch Smite, along with the Champion Fighter's Improved Critical, and possibly the Orcish Fury feat.


Half Orc Champion Fighter 3/Undead Bladelock X

Progression: 
Fighter 1 -> Undead Pact of the Blade Warlock 6 -> Champion Fighter 3 or 4 -> Warlock X

Point Buy Stats:
STR 15+2
DEX 8 or 10
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 10 or 8
CHA 15+1

Wear Heavy Armor and wield a Greataxe.

Skills: Intimidation*, Perception, Athletics, Persuasion, Deception

ASIs: Slasher or Orcish Fury (18 STR) at Warlock 4, GWM next at either Fighter 4 or Warlock 8 (depending on progression), then +2 STR or +2 CHA at Warlock 8 or Warlock 12

Invocations: Eldritch Smite, Devil's Sight, and Thirsting Blade by Warlock 5, and then Eldritch Mind at Warlock 7, Agonizing Blast (or your choice of utility Invocation) at Warlock 9, and eventually Lifedrinker at Warlock 12.

Fighting Style: GWF if you want to squeeze every last drop of potential damage out of your Greataxe hits, otherwise Defense for +1 AC.


This is a more melee-focused Bladelock build, sacrificing a little spellcasting prowess for harder-hitting weapon attacks, Action Surge, and more frequent (and bigger) critical hits. Starting with Fighter 1 gets you Heavy Armor, martial weapon, Fighting Style, and CON(centration) save proficiency right out the gate, and would be necessary anyway on an Undead Bladelock build, even if you weren't planning to go all the way to Fighter 3 for a subclass, since the Undead subclass doesn't get any additional armor or weapon proficiency. So a Fighter 3/Warlock X is effectively only 1 spell level behind a Fighter 1/Warlock X.

The Slasher feat would be more useful over the course of the day, with rider effects that apply to one hit every turn, as well as every critical hit.  But if you're going for straight critical hit nova damage numbers, the Orcish Fury feat presents a means to stack on more crit dice once per short rest, if you wait to trigger it until you crit.

Thanks to Undead Warlock, you have built-in access to stuff like Darkness + Devil's Sight, Blindness/Deafness, and Greater Invisibility to generate Advantage to double your crit chances (although each use of those is one less Eldritch Smite available that short rest).  And once you hit Character Level 9 with Champion 3/Undead Warlock 6, you're twice again as likely to land a critical hit, critting on a 19-20, which means 4x as likely when rolling with Advantage.  (Beating out even Elven Accuracy's 3x.)

Likely not as optimized in the long run as a Sorcadin for single-round nova or overall daily melee damage output, due to only having 2x spell slots at a time, but would still be putting up some impressive damage numbers, and seems like a fun build to play, with the fistful of dice on a critical hit feeling really, really good.  Once you run out of spell slots for Eldritch Smite, you're still rolling 5d12 on a crit (or up to 7d12 with Orcish Fury), plus damage rerolls.  And even when you don't crit, you're doing 2d12+14 on a GWM hit, plus damage rerolls.


For example, a damage comparison...

A critical hit at Level 7 (Fighter 1/Undead Warlock 6) could be doing:
1d12 base
1d12 Grave Touched
_(+1d12 if Orcish Fury)_
4d8 3rd Level Eldritch Smite
All of which is doubled on a crit = 4d12+8d8 (or 6d12+8d8 with Orcish Fury), then...
+1d12 Savage Attacks
+4 STR



For a grand total of 5d12+8d8+4, or an average of 72.5 damage without Orcish Fury, or 7d12+8d8+4 or 85.5 if using Orcish Fury.  Plus a Prone enemy thanks to Eldritch Smite's rider.  Plus potentially -10 speed and Disadvantage on all their attacks until your next turn if taking Slasher. Plus you can reroll 1s and 2s on the damage dice thanks to Great Weapon Fighting Style, which pushes the average damage even higher.


Compare that to a similarly built Half Orc Paladin 7 with a Pike and Piercer:
1d10 base
3d8 2nd Level Divine Smite
Doubled on a crit = 2d10+6d8
+1d10 Piercer
+1d10 Savage Attacks
+4 STR


For a total of 4d10+6d8+4, or an average of just 53 damage (pushed similarly a bit higher by the rerolls).

----------


## strangebloke

Pretty solid. Nice thing about Warlocks is that they basically always end up good.

Though I can't help but feel here that the classic bladelock route of MCing to fighter for armor always ends up worse than a basic hexblade. Granted, this build is able to get way more consistent crits, but its a steady 4x crit rate while hexblade gets bigger weapons and 3x normal crit rate, able to burst up to 6, without MCing.

honestly.

Sorta wonder about the lance? It feels like a really good weapon specifically for piercer synergies here. d12 piercing weapon that can be wielded in one hand if mounted (or two if unmounted)

----------


## RogueJK

Is the Lance's +1 of average damage on each weapon dice (d12 vs d10) worth having Disadvantage on all attacks within 5'?

Personally, I don't think it is.  There's too many situations where you'd be stuck with the losing proposition of either accepting the Disadvantage, or sucking up 1 or more OAs to get 10' away to remove the Disadvantage, or wasting your Advantage just to counteract it.

It also isn't a Heavy weapon, so it doesn't qualify for GWM's -5/+10...  That alone is a big drag on your overall damage output.

----------


## strangebloke

> Is the Lance's +1 of average damage on each weapon dice (d12 vs d10) worth having Disadvantage on all attacks within 5'?
> 
> Personally, I don't think it is.  There's too many situations where you'd be stuck with the losing proposition of either accepting the Disadvantage, or sucking up 1 or more OAs to get 10' away to remove the Disadvantage, or wasting your Advantage just to counteract it.
> 
> It also isn't a Heavy weapon, so it doesn't qualify for GWM's -5/+10...  That alone is a big drag on your overall damage output.


Well if you're mounted you get a free shift (decide which of your mount's squares you inhabit) which allows you to basically never be in 5' on your turn. As it stands you're not getting to GWM until level 9 or 10 anyway and there's no cost to having a lance as an option. Not intended as a critique of the build really, just a way that it could be used.

----------


## RogueJK

Unlike a Paladin, or even something like a Beastmaster Ranger, a Fighter/Warlock doesn't have a way to (re)generate a mount.

So in order for you to plan around being constantly mounted, your adventuring group would need to travel with a herd of Warhorses to constantly replace the ones that are getting murdered every battle.  They have an AC of 11, 19 HP, and a mere +1 to AoE damage spell saves.  Outside of Tier 1, the survivability of store-bought mounts is negligible.

----------


## strangebloke

> Unlike a Paladin, or even something like a Beastmaster Ranger, a Fighter/Warlock doesn't have a way to (re)generate a mount.
> 
> So in order for you to plan around being constantly mounted, your adventuring group would need to travel with a herd of Warhorses to constantly replace the ones that are getting murdered every battle.  They have an AC of 11, 19 HP, and a mere +1 to AoE damage spell saves.  Outside of Tier 1, the survivability of store-bought mounts is negligible.


Well, you do have phantom steed as an option, lol. Not a great option but its there.

Anyway, between THP, barding, and dodging I typically find HP loss is the least of the mount's worries. CC is way worse, since most of the higher level mounts have that problem too.

Obviously its not practical in every campaign, its just a thought, and I didn't mean it as criticism.

----------


## Caldwhyn

I was playing around (in my head mostly) with the wood elf commando allllll the way from page one and ended up with a very different build, going to BM 7 and then picking up swashbuckler 5 before going back into bm. Maybe even getting a whip for that sweet reach and sneak attack reactions all around me. The lesser damage of the whip being nicely compensated by my 3D6 sneak attack once per turn.

As I am not very used to this theorycrafting, am I missing some pitfalls here?

----------


## Xoronis

> *Half Orc Death Knight*
> 
> ...neat build stuff truncated for clarity...
> 
> For example, a damage comparison...
> 
> A critical hit at Level 7 (Fighter 1/Undead Warlock 6) could be doing:
> 1d10 base
> *1d10 Grave Touched*
> ...


Bolded the relevant parts, but Grave Touched and Piercer don't stack since Piercer requires piercing damage and Grave Touched changes it to necrotic

----------


## RogueJK

Ah... I can't believe we missed that.  Good eye.  

So you're looking at an either/or situation.  Subtract 1d10 from the calculations, because you can choose _either_ +1d10 Necrotic or +1d10 piercing.  Necrotic would be the better option unless fighting Necrotic-resistant enemies, since it would be doubled (+2d10) on a crit instead of just +1d10 from Piercer.


In that light, unless you just want the 10' reach, I believe Piercer + Pike is less useful overall than Slasher (or Orcish Fury) + Greataxe.  Give me a minute and I'll re-edit the post.

----------


## MisterD

You can replace the damage type.  NOT, you replace the damage type with necrotic.
Also where did the +1D10 grave touched damage come from?

----------


## RogueJK

> You can replace the damage type.  NOT, you replace the damage type with necrotic.


I'm not sure I understand your point.  The wording of Grave Touched is (bold emphasis mine):

_"In addition, once during each of your turns, when you hit a creature with an attack roll and roll damage against the creature, you can replace the damage type with necrotic damage. While you are using your Form of Dread, you can roll one additional damage die when determining the necrotic damage the target takes."_

Or are you just reiterating that it's optional ("can"), and not mandatory?




> Also where did the +1D10 grave touched damage come from?


From the last sentence of Grave Touched.  When using your Form of Dread, and switching to Necrotic damage, you can roll one additional damage die (+1d10).


But that does bring up a thought:  The wording could be read to imply that you choose whether to replace the damage type with Necrotic *after* you roll damage.  So when the damage is initially rolled, would it technically still be Piercing damage at that point?  Then you would choose whether to switch to Necrotic after that, and add another die at the end.  

Probably not RAI, though.

Another way of reading is that the Necrotic switch happens simultaneously with the damage rolling, and therefore wouldn't trigger Piercer.  That's likely RAI.

----------


## tiornys

(no one expects) *The Imp-uisition*



This build seeks to optimize chain pact Imp familiar attacks as much as possible while still being a strong contributor without the Imp.  The core components--Investment of the Chain Master, Magic Stone, Darkness, and Devil's Sight (technically doesn't help the Imp, but if you're casting Darkness you may as well benefit too)--are available from three levels of Warlock and can work with any subclass (weakest on Fathomless but you can pull the tentacle out whenever the Imp gets popped).  You can use this as part of a Warlock-primary build, or you can staple the 3 level dip onto any Cha-based build.  Of course, this isn't as strong as the standard Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast dip plan, but it can still be fun. Just watch out for bonus action conflicts. Be aware of how Darkness might impact your party and use the Imp's maneuverability and item interactions to help mitigate any issues.  See also the Know Your Spell Tactics! section of this LudicSavant post for more tips on party-friendly Darkness use.

Assuming a target that doesn't resist poison damage and can't see through magical darkness, the Imp's sting attack averages 9-11+ DPR from your bonus action (assumes advantage, target 13-18 AC, and a 55% chance to save vs. your spell save DC).  This is competitive with the DPR contribution from a CBE + SS or PM + GWM bonus action attack.

Against foes immune to poison--or if melee is too dangerous for the Imp--we have a backup plan of supplying Magic Stones for the Imp to throw.  The bonus action to cast Magic Stone conflicts with the bonus action to command the Imp, so it can only fire 3 out of every 4 rounds.  This drops the contribution to 4-7 DPR depending on target AC, advantage, and whether or not you can enter combat with a precast set of magic stones.

Whenever practical, have the Imp use its raven form for its melee attacks since this gives it a fly speed of 60 vs. the base Imp form's fly speed of 40 (assuming the DM is ok with the raven carrying a pebble bearing Darkness).  I'd expect most DMs to rule that a raven can't cover/uncover the pebble or throw Magic Stones, so plan on using the standard Imp form for these options.

The Imp's primary defenses are the one-way obscurement from its ability to see in magical Darkness--forcing most opponents to attack at disadvantage and allowing it to disengage freely--plus its innate resistances and immunities.  We can supplement by using Mage Armor (or certain magic items) to improve its AC, the Investment of the Chain Master's reaction to give it resistance against any type of damage, temp HP from sources like Inspiring Leader, and extra base HP from Aid.

The build benefits greatly from certain magic items.  A game where you can expect some ability to purchase magic items and/or influence what the DM drops is a great candidate for trying this out.

*Core build components:* Warlock 3, Pact of the Chain (Imp familiar), Investment of the Chain Master, Magic Stone, Darkness, Devil's Sight
*Primary enhancements:* Inspiring Leader, Aid, Mage Armor

*Spoiler: Notable magic items*
Show

*For you:* Lapis Lazuli Spell Gem allows you to pre-cast Find Familiar into the gem so that you can later get your Imp back with a single action.

*For the Imp:*  talk to your DM about chain pact familiars a) using magic items, b) attuning magic items and whether that uses their own attunement slots or your attunement slots, and c) what kinds of magic item actions your familiar can use on their own.  IMO the most straightforward interpretation from RAW is also the most liberal (yes they can use and attune them, with their own attunement slots, and they can cast offensive spells/abilities that don't involve attack rolls) but expect table variance here.  Most of the items are situational effects that are better when the action to use them is "free", and several give the Imp offensive options for use when you have to use your bonus action on something other than giving them an attack.

*Highest priority item:* Ring of Spell StoringA -- let your Imp cast _and concentrate on_ its own Darkness spells; toss in a Shield for good measure

*Protective items* that your party may not want/need: Barrier TattooA, Elven Chain

*Non-attunement items:* Bag of TricksBeads of ForceCape of the MountebankEversmoking BottleGem of BrightnessHorn of Blasting (the Imp is immune to the potential explosion damage)Necklace of FireballsWand of Magic MissileWind Fan

*Attunement items:* Amethyst LodestoneCoiling Grasp TattooRing of ObscuringRing of Shooting StarsWand of FearWand of Winter


*Custom Lineage Fiend 5 / Clockwork Soul 1 / Fiend X* 
*Background*: Selesnya; this gives us Aid and Plant Growth which are nice but not necessary.  If setting specific background aren't available the build remains functional
*Starting Stats (Point Buy + half feat):* 17 Cha / 15 Con / 14 Dex
*ASIs*: Moderately Armored (Dex) @1, Fey Touched (Cha) @4, Inspiring Leader @9, Resilient (Con) @13, +2 Cha @17, Lucky @20
*Invocations:* Devil's Sight, Agonizing Blast --> Investment of the Chain Master, Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Eldritch Mind, Voice of the Chain Master/Gift of the Ever-Living Ones, Chains of Carceri, Witch Sight
*Cantrips:* Magic Stone, Eldritch Blast, Minor Illusion, Mind Sliver, Mold Earth, Shape Water, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand
*Sample Warlock spells known* (replaced): Command, (Hex), (Hellish Rebuke), Aid, Darkness, (Shatter), Blindness/Deafness, (Fireball), Plant Growth, Hold Person, Wall of Fire, Dimension Door, Banishment, Synaptic Static, Fly, Dispel Magic, Scrying
*Sample Mystic Arcanums:* Mass Suggestion, Forcecage, Maddening Darkness, True Polymorph
*Spells (Fey Touched):* Misty Step, Gift of Alacrity
*Spells (Sorcerer):* Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Protection from Evil and Good

Use typical Hex + Eldritch Blast/Magic Stone tactics for the first couple of levels (Magic Stone is better than unenhanced Eldritch Blast when you have the spare bonus action for it), then drop Hex since your bonus action plan is all Imp all the time (maybe scribe some scrolls for emergency use if the Imp goes down early in a fight).  At levels 3 and 4 the Imp's attack is likely stronger than your cantrips.  You can leverage this by using (or Readying) the Attack action and giving up the attack to let the Imp attack with its reaction, in addition to ordering it to attack with your bonus action.  At level 5 the second Eldritch Blast beam (and your proficiency bump) pushes it above the Imp's attack so it's back to blasting with your own actions.

Whenever practical, have Darkness cast on a pebble before battle (you can always keep it covered up until fighting starts); thanks to its 10 minute duration, in a dungeon crawl or similar you may be able to have it last across multiple fights.  Since concentration on Darkness is assumed, the rest of the spell list is weighted towards impact spells that don't need concentration.  If you get access to a Ring of Spell Storing or other way to have the Imp concentrate on Darkness (e.g. an Artificer's SSI or Chronurgy Wizard's Arcane Abeyance) consider swapping in a few more concentration spells.  Note that the Imp's immunity to Fire lets it fly through a Wall of Fire or have Fireballs dropped on its head with impunity.

Final note: if you happen to do this with a Druid multiclass, this build DOES synergize in one key way: you can use the summon familiar variant use of wildshape to summon an Imp for an hour.

----------


## Eriol

> *Builds created by other posters in this thread:*
> The Eldritch Blast Knight by BloodcloudThe Tiefling Masochist by Story_OptimizedThe Fey Knight by SithLordNergal


I have a request for the OP, LudicSavant: Can you please put in your linked builds you didn't make yourself (an extremely cut down version of which is quoted above) a tag on each that says which Classes/subclasses are involved?  It's rather difficult to skim for builds for a certain class when the names often do not have class names in them!  Your builds are far more useful to peruse because they have that.  The linked ones are just a needle in a haystack.  Even with the 3 above, I have little-to-no idea which classes are involved (without going to the actual page), whereas yours are clear.

If you want assistance with this (ie: have me research my own summaries, and post it for you to edit in) then OK, I can do that and post for the backlog (when I have time), but I can see others wanting this too.

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## Caldwhyn

I was pointed here to inquire, if the tanky glamour bard that LudicSavant hinted at in another thread was ever fleshed out?




> Bard can get tanky as heck too. They've got the same HD as a Cleric, are only ever one half-feat away from medium armor and a shield, and they have access to some pretty crazy defensive abilities, like Mantle of Inspiration (Glamour Bard), Cutting Words (Lore Bard), or Defensive Flourish (Swords Bard). And nothing's stopping them from picking out some of the best defensive tools from all spell lists with Magical Secrets.
> 
> Like seriously, look at Mantle of Inspiration. LOOK AT IT. With 15 uses of Bardic Inspiration in a standard adventuring day, its up to 120 temporary hit points at level 6, 165 thp at level 11, and 210 thp at level 15. Per Party Member. 
> 
> This would already be enough to make you a hard target if it was only affecting you alone, but affecting allies (and dramatically improving their mobility) means you can rotate people in and out as you please, forcing enemies to spread damage around and controlling the engagement. What's that mean? It means I've seen situations where enemies would offload enough punishment to kill a Barbarian without taking a single party member below half.
> 
> And that's just getting started. That same Glamour Bard could have Shield, or bloody Contingency. They could have bonus action Commands locking enemies down. They could have Unbreakable Majesty requiring enemies to make a saving throw to even attack you. They could have Synaptic Static, and Aid, and Lesser Restoration, and Mind Blank, and Heroes' Feast, and Forcecage, and Silvery Barbs, and so, so much more.


If not, I will simply pin down a few of my thoughts, since I would really like to give this concept a go.

As said, we will need a half feat to get moderately armored for shield and medium armor proficiency. Other ways to acquire this could  be the infamous hex blade dip (also making us SAD), a dip in Paladin or a dip into dex (?) fighter. Going the feat way will probably mean taking vhuman as race which will barr us from taking some of the very interesting races from MotM such as kobold (getting us booming blade), earth genasi or githzerai (or the always welcome Shadar-kai or Eladrin). Talking races, hill dwarf would ofc also be an option or legacy gith, giving us armor proficiencies as well.

I am pretty unsure, which way would be the best here. The goal would be a frontliner who builds up enough pressure towards the opposition to block them from simply running through whatever tactic they had in mind using his spells and the glamour skills. This should probably rank the melee skillset less important except for using stuff like booming blade. It also would make feats like warcaster highly desirable, which I would hate to delay to 8.

Nonetheless, a vhuman Fighter 2/ Glamour Bard 18 is the first thing that comes to my mind as I write this. But any and each idea is welcome at this point.

----------


## animorte

> Nonetheless, a vhuman Fighter 2/ Glamour Bard 18 is the first thing that comes to my mind as I write this. But any and each idea is welcome at this point.


I might take 3 levels of Paladin instead. Watchers or Crown perhaps? Still leaves you that 17 needed levels for 9th level spells. The only real value youre missing out on is Action Surge. I think it gives better front-lining tanky (and knight in _shining_ armor) vibes though. Also Charisma!

----------


## LudicSavant

> I have a request for the OP, LudicSavant: Can you please put in your linked builds you didn't make yourself (an extremely cut down version of which is quoted above) a tag on each that says which Classes/subclasses are involved?  It's rather difficult to skim for builds for a certain class when the names often do not have class names in them!  Your builds are far more useful to peruse because they have that.  The linked ones are just a needle in a haystack.  Even with the 3 above, I have little-to-no idea which classes are involved (without going to the actual page), whereas yours are clear.


  Sounds like a reasonable idea.  I'll see what I can do next time I update the first page.




> If you want assistance with this (ie: have me research my own summaries, and post it for you to edit in) then OK, I can do that and post for the backlog (when I have time), but I can see others wanting this too.


That would be quite helpful!

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## Telesphoros

> Sounds like a reasonable idea.  I'll see what I can do next time I update the first page.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be quite helpful!




51 pages and still going strong, congrats Ludic!

I think they close threads some time after 50 pages so soon time to start a new thread methinks.

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## Eriol

> That would be quite helpful!


/cracks knuckles - Let's do this.  I'm going to reply in-line with your stuff, so it's all in this post, rather than "quoted" here.  Please take the re-edit the 1st page as necessary!  I'll try and use the descriptions of the posters themselves usually, unless I find it unclear for some reason, and will re-edit as I see fit, but fortunately it's mostly them!

*Builds created by other posters in this thread:*
The Eldritch Blast Knight by Bloodcloud
VHuman fighter (eldritch Knight) 7 Warlock (Infernal/Tome) 13 - An unconventional gish build.The Tiefling Masochist by Story_Optimized
Cleric (Storm) 1, Warlock (Fiend/Tome) 11 - A melee warlock based around passive damageThe Fey Knight by SithLordNergal
Paladin (Oath of the Ancients) 8, Druid (Circle of Dreams ) 11, Sorcerer (Divine Soul) 1 - This is mostly a support build, you're be pretty tanky on top of all thatThe Passive Soul by Ritorix
Sorcerer (Divine Soul) 20 - Passive combat support to boost your party from 1 to 20The Battle Valkyrie Life Cleric by Man_Over_Game
Cleric (Life) 17, Sorcerer (3 options listed) 3 - Make a durable frontline healer that relies on synergies revolving around Warding Bond, Heavy Armor Master, and the Life Cleric's Blessed Healer featureKing Leonidas by Tallytrev813
Barbarian (Bear) 8-14 - You're going to abuse the damage resistance and add a few Feats to become the stickiest, and IMO best, single target tank available.The Warlord Halfling by Mjolnirbear
Fighter (Battlemaster) 3+ - Support fighter, and a likely contender for a leader-type build too.Dragonriders by Mjolnirbear
Paladin, Artificer (Battlesmith), and Druid (Shepard) - 3 different builds, see post for details.The Dilettante by Mjolnirbear
 Warlock, Sorcerer, Paladin, Bard, Cleric or Druid - Heavy caster multi-class, no higher than 3rd level of anyThe Dabbler by Mjolnirbear
 Fighter (Battlemaster), Rogue (Any), Barbarian (Any), Monk (Any) - Heavy melee multi-class, no higher than 3rd level of any.The Stab of All Trades by Skylivedk
Warlock (Hexblade) 5, Paladin (Conquest) 7, Bard (Whisper) 5, Fighter (Battlemaster) 3 - Character concept is to leverage most of the different Cha-based classes for a character that can do pretty well across the board: skills, tanking and nova.The Tank of All Trades by Skylivedk
Warlock (Hexblade) 1, Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 9, Bard (Whisper/Lore) 10 - The idea here was for a tanking rogue (with Armour of Agathys + Uncanny Dodge) that has an extreme amounts of skills and expertise along with good saving throws.The Never-Ending Ward by Skylivedk
Gnome (Svifnerblin), Paladin (Conquest) 3, Wizard (Abjuration) X - The idea here being combining Smites with AoA with the sexiness of being a Wizard and the combined anti-magic might of abjuration wizards and gnomes.The Kinetic Blaster by AtomicWrath
Fighter 2, Warlock (Hexblade) 5, Sorcerer (Storm) 1 - The Kinetic Blaster runs through battlefields and shapes them manually to his will, by knocking enemies around like pinballs, or yanking them into melee where they dont want to be.The Flying Tank by AtomicWrath
Barbarian (Ancestral Guardian) 5, Artificer (Battle Smith) 3 - This build is about taking the heat and debuffing the BBEG.Yeti, PhD by AtomicWrath
Bugbear, Fighter (Battlemaster) 6, Artificer 2 - This build is about doing big DPS while not on the frontline.Jedi Tank by AtomicWrath
vHuman, Fighter (Battlemaster) 4, Warlock (Great Old One) 3, Cleric (Tempest) 1 - This build is a tough frontliner with plenty of utility out of combat.

And holy hell, I'm only up to 17 builds.  Well, that's a start for tonight.  I'll continue to chip away at it in the coming days (I hope!).  I discovered some interesting things just reviewing those.  Which is part of the fun!  Please copy-n-paste as you need to Ludic!  I have a new appreciation for how long this can take!

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## CMCC

> /cracks knuckles -
> -snip-


This is very helpful! Great addition.

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## Caldwhyn

> I might take 3 levels of Paladin instead. Watchers or Crown perhaps? Still leaves you that 17 needed levels for 9th level spells. The only real value youre missing out on is Action Surge. I think it gives better front-lining tanky (and knight in _shining_ armor) vibes though. Also Charisma!


Well charisma and strength for paladin, that's what irks me about going this way. I would need 13 STR to multiclass out of it. I could go with a complete STR/CHA build though but I was more thinking of going the DEX/med armor route to keep the MADness at bay since the Char would need some dex anyways.

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## animorte

> Well charisma and strength for paladin, that's what irks me about going this way. I would need 13 STR to multiclass out of it. I could go with a complete STR/CHA build though but I was more thinking of going the DEX/med armor route to keep the MADness at bay since the Char would need some dex anyways.


I can certainly see the concern here. I personally attempt to avoid the Strength stat wherever possible.

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## 1Pirate

Ludic, I think there's a tiny little mistake in the Ever-Living Generalist build: The build has 9 cantrips, not 8. It looks like Sacred Flame from the Celestial Warlock's bonus cantrips was left out.

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## LudicSavant

> Ludic, I think there's a tiny little mistake in the Ever-Living Generalist build: The build has 9 cantrips, not 8. It looks like Sacred Flame from the Celestial Warlock's bonus cantrips was left out.


So it was.  Fixed!  And thanks!   :Small Smile:

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## Eriol

Continuing where I left off...

*Builds created by other posters in this thread:*
Nature is Magical by Mercurias
VHuman, Cleric (Arcana) 6, Druid (Land Coast) 14 - This is a build that essentially gives you as many day-to-day options as I can imagine for a caster.The Advokist Tomb Raider by AtomicWrath
Veldeken (Orzhov), Artificer (Battle Smith) 9, Cleric (Forge) 1, Wizard (War) 2 - The gist of this build is to be an int-based tank who uses Spiritual Guardians, dual attacks and great defenses to survive in the middle of melee.The Shadow Whip by ThatDuckGrant
vHuman, Warlock (Hexblade) 1, Sorcerer (Shadow) X - This build focuses on a specific weapon I find extremely fun and eclectic, the Shadow Whip.Whippy the Wonder Goblin by Amechra
Goblin, Bard (Sword) 5, Monk (Kensei) 15 - Blade Flourishes actually work pretty well with the Monk's whole combat schtick of being ultra mobile.Mr. Disintegration Pistol by Amechra
Shifter (Swiftstride), Ranger (Hunter) 3, Monk (Kensei) 17 - Making 3-4 attacks per round that deal 1d8+16 damage each sounds pretty OK to me.The ZombieNaught by Skylivedk
Half-orc, Monk (Long Death) 12, Rogue (Thief) 5, Barbarian (Zealot) 3 - Your combination of Rage and Uncanny Dodge make you neigh unkillable and if you do get to dance with your cold mistress, it takes nothing but a ki-point to stay on your feet.4 Arms of Grappling Death by Skylivedk
Fighter (Battlemaster) 12, Warlock (Hexblade) 1, Ranger (Gloom Stalker) 4, Rogue (Thief) 3 - So this is a DPR and grappling machine for first round damage in the range of 200+ using only short rest resources.Swift Blade & Bottle by Skylivedk
Fighter (Eldritch Knight) 11, Warlock (Hexblade) 1, Sorcerer (Any) 5, Rogue (Thief) 3  - This take uses SAD from Hexblade and combines it with more spell-casting to take advantage of the EK level 10 ability.Spider-Man by Skylivedk
Wood-Elf or Simic Hybrid, Fighter (Battle Master) 3, Rogue (Thief) 3-6, Monk (Open Hand) 9-14 - This class should mirror a good Spider-Man feel; you can be anywhere on the battlefield, control fairly well with maneuvers+stunning strike+open hand maneuvers.Monsieur DeLafleur, Cook Extraordinaire! by Amechra *PREVIOUS LINK INCORRECT - Use this one!  I found the actual named post!*
V. Human Bard 2 - Short-Rest Non-Magical Healer.The Booming Trickster by BarneyBent
Wood Elf, Cleric (Trickery) 4, Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 4 - A magical rogue that can deliver melee sneak attacks without ever leaving cover.The True Skill Monkey by Amechra
Half-Elf (Skill Versatility) Charlatan, Rogue (Scout) 6, Bard (Lore) 14 - Maximum skill monkey.Arcie the ridiculously lucky Arcane Trickster by GorogInput
Halfling (Stout), Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 8, Wizard (Divination) 2 - Get as many 'luck-bending' effects packed into one character for the benefit of yourself and the rest of the party.YEET by Trickery
Halfling (Lightfoot), Warlock (Any/Hexblade) 2+, Sorcerer (Any) 4+ - Comprehensive take on the ever-popular repelling blast Sorlock, but with some enhancements.Tesla Coils by FableWright
Gnome, Cleric (Tempest) 2, Wizard (Evocation) 18 - The build is about the maximum abuse of two abilities: Overchannel and Destructive Wrath.The UberMage by Story_Optimized
Tiefling (Feral Winged), Cleric (Tempest) 2, Warlock (Hexblade), Wizard (War) 17 - Combination of ideas from nuclear wizard, the iron-hobgoblin wizard, the tiefling masochist, and the tesla coil.The Divine Conduit by RingoBongo
Rogue (Inquisitive) X, Cleric (War) 1 - 4 - It's important to try to control the edges of combat. No one gets away or is able to hide.Vesselyth, the Clockwork Bandit by Mjolnirbear
Artificer (Alchemst) X - A non-rogue thief.  You can build a monk without levels in Monk, or a fighter without levels in Fighter. Here's my take on a thief. The God of Lightning by bendking
VHuman, Cleric (Tempest) 2, Sorcerer (Storm) 18 - Based on the new Elemental Spell Metamagic, you can practically max damage every damaging spell in your list.  Editor's Note: Elemental Spell became Transmuted Spell in Tasha's, so no longer requires Unearthed Arcana.Building Iron Man by AgenderAcree
VHuman, Artificer (Artillerist) 20 - Build Iron Man as a full Artificer.The Feywarden by Justin Sane
Rogue (Scout) 3+, Ranger (Fey Wanderer) 3+ - The Ranger side of the build gives some really useful magic tricks and the Rogue side can easily cover for those long days where you spent all your slots on Goodberries.The Grease Trap by Citadel97501 
Sorcerer (Shadow or Storm) 3+ (Sorcerer 4+ if not Variant Human), Fighter 5+, Rogue 1+ - Permanent Proning an enemy.Celestial Dragonforge Cleric, Master of the Searing Smite, by AgenderAcree
Cleric (Forge) 8, Warlock (Celestial, Tome) 6, Sorcerer (Draconic, Fire) 6 - Master of the Searing Smite, a build that adds Cha to damage FOUR times per hit.Zealot of Death, by Benny89
Warlock (Hexblade) 1, Barbarian (Zealot) 12 - Your job is to stick to main target in every fight, Curse and challange them into glorious duel to the death! No mercy allowed!


There's another 24 of them.

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## animorte

Would it be worth it to note how many times each class is represented and provide shortcuts to the builds based on each class?

Might save some time for folks seeking out something specific. And there would be cross-over for many of these...

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## RogueJK

And if we could get Bluetooth connectivity, and a can opener, that would be great... 


 :Biggrin:

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## strangebloke

Great work Eriol. Really helpful

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## Reach Weapon

> And if we could get Bluetooth connectivity, and a can opener, that would be great...


Well, at least you're asking for reasonable things, not absolute ridiculousness like a forum table with appropriate columns.

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## LudicSavant

> Hi Ludic! I love your interesting build thread a lot. I've seen you say that Life Cleric is one of the strongest healing builds in the game, and it's inspired me to try and make one. Could I ask for some advice on how to build such a character? Like race, feats, interesting combos, the like. Nothing too in-depth, I don't want to take up too much of your time.


Here's an old example Life Cleric build I made:  https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...8&postcount=51 

Some interesting races are discussed here.  Some that are interesting for Life Clerics include (but are not limited to):
*- Githzerai* gets Shield as a Cleric spell known, as well as other nice things (like Subtle Detect Thoughts, Psychic Resistance, and an ironclad defense against charm and fear by combining Advantage with a Cleric's Wis and proficiency).
*- Mark of Hospitality Halflings* get Goodberry as a Cleric spell known, and Life Clerics can just take that straight to the bank.  Also comes with other nice things, like the ability to reroll 1s.
*- Goliath* gets a good Reaction; Clerics don't have those by default.  And theirs can make Concentration checks easier and make you very durable.
*- Kobold* can get Booming Blade, and can give the party Advantage as a bonus action.
*- Shifters* are just very durable, if nobody's generating temp HP for you already.
*- Goblin* is very tough to pin down, which is a problem for the bad guys since if you don't die, it's hard for anyone else to.
*- Firbolgs* can prevent your crucial party-saving abilities from being Counterspelled with Hidden Step.
*- Mark of Sentinel Humans* get Shield 1/day and Sentinel's Intuition, which is like pseudo-Expertise for Perception and Insight -- skills that are often already the Cleric's job in the party.  Also lets you take a hit for an ally, which synergizes with Blessed Healer.  Also puts Counterspell and Bigby's Hand on the Cleric list.
*-Loxodons* make a Cleric _extremely_ resistant to charm and fear (for the same reason Githzerai does), Advantage on two kinds of Wisdom checks (Perception and Survival), and a trunk.
*-Shadar-Kai* will get you a teleport, Resistance, Advantage v charms, etc.
(Note:  Unless specified otherwise, I'm talking about the latest version of a race; usually MPMM).

Some interesting Feats include...
*- Aberrant Dragonmark (+1 Con)*. Grab Booming Blade and a useful Reaction for just a half-feat.
*- Gift of the Chromatic Dragon*. Pretend you have Absorb Elements prof/day!  Also it can buff an ally's damage.
*- Skill Expert (+1 Wis)*. Especially if you're already the most perceptive character in the party.  Less finicky than Observant.
*- Fey-Touched (+1 Wis)* 
*- Res:Con (+1 Con)*.  Failing Con saves is bad!  Gets better as your proficiency increases.
*- Lucky*.  Helps protect against failed saving throws, but also other things.
*- Telepathic (+1 Wis)*.  At-will, action-free telepathic communication and a _componentless_ Detect Thoughts for a Wis-boosting half-feat.  That can be quite nifty in the right sort of campaign.
*- War Caster* is good if your party strategy leads to you getting a fair amount of OAs.  Also helps your concentration.
*- Magic Initiate*.  Generally not a priority for Life Cleric, but can get you stuff like Absorb Elements / Shillelagh / Thorn Whip.  Especially if you got Booming Blade from something like Kobold or Aberrant Dragonmark earlier.  I had the Regenerator take it at late levels after maxing Wis.
*- Alert*.  Extra useful if your team likes fog clouds or the like, since it'll stop Advantage/Disadvantage from canceling out.

Some general tips include...
- Blessed Strikes is usually better than Divine Strike.
- Tasha's makes some high-value additions to the Cleric spell list.  Summon Celestial is excellent for single target damage, especially when upcast to a level 6 or 8 slot.  Aura of Vitality is hyperefficient on a Life Cleric, especially out of combat.  Sunburst is a solid AoE option at high levels.
- It helps to spread damage around, because of Blessed Healer.  Also because of your powerful multi-target heals.
- Channel Divinity isn't a spell, so can combo with bonus action spells.
- Don't forget that you can Dodge or fall prone, and still get a lot of output.  You've got great Concentration and bonus action effects (or potentially even things that can act on their own like Animate Dead with a standing order)

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## Eriol

> Great work Eriol. Really helpful


Thanks.  Only ~2 minutes per build, but there's a lot!  I'll keep plugging at it though.  Credit Ludic for making such a great place to exchange ideas, not to mention the people who made the builds themselves.  Lots of thought went into these things.

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## zariel_paladin

i havent seen enough filthy powergaming here so i am here to present the stupidest thing that has ever been created in this game

THE CONJURER
this is going to be an absolute monster of a build, monoclassed wizard and how to abuse minor conjuration
level 1: you are a wizard, grab unseen servant and find familiar, dont bother with blasting spells, you will be getting something for that real soon... (make sure to grab prestidigitation, some stuff that it can do if your dm runs raw instead of ranfs are detailed in bootbrew)
level 2: oh boy this is where the fun begins, as a conjuration wizard you get minor conjuration at this level, heres a list of some fun stuff you can do with it: shatterstick(property damage go brrrr), catapault munitions(5th level fireball as a cantrip go brr, just have unseen servant/familiar throw it), purple worm poison(self explanatory), ice troll heart(give your entire party 5 hp regen per turn, become immortal), black sap(immunity to charm and poison in exchange for a con save), theki root(make that con save at advantage), ryath root (temphp for the whole party), dreamlilly(become poisoned in exchange for death ward), murosa balm (fire resistance), eberron dragonshard (this singlehandedly allows a conjuration wizard to keep up with chron at late tier 2 through to tier four, and tier four is where things get fun)
tbh everything else here is pretty obvious, grab mark of conjuring as your race if you can and have fun being a god amongst men

bonus section, tier four shenanigans (shamelessly stolen from sil, the person running bootbrew blogs) 
the ghost in the machine

having carried your way to tier four with infinite planar binds, you are now near a god, but we can get a little closer than that, so here is what we are going to do
1. prestidigitation summon a two headed worm (on the trinket list) or planar bind a tashas summon
2. true polymorph this into a mighty servant of leuk o
3. double magic jar into a dybbuk
4. nystul the mighty servant into a humanoid
5. place two planar bound chwingas in rocks into the mech, these are your pilots
6. posses the mech
you are now a fullcaster with 500 hp, immunity to most damage types, and resistance to those you arent immune to, immune to every condition except for invisible and prone, three actions, triple concentration, a mean melee attack, immunity to antimagic and 22 ac BASE

----------


## Chaos Jackal

> THE CONJURER
> this is going to be an absolute monster of a build, monoclassed wizard and how to abuse minor conjuration
> level 1: you are a wizard, grab unseen servant and find familiar, dont bother with blasting spells, you will be getting something for that real soon... (make sure to grab prestidigitation, some stuff that it can do if your dm runs raw instead of ranfs are detailed in bootbrew)
> level 2: oh boy this is where the fun begins, as a conjuration wizard you get minor conjuration at this level, heres a list of some fun stuff you can do with it: shatterstick(property damage go brrrr), catapault munitions(5th level fireball as a cantrip go brr, just have unseen servant/familiar throw it), purple worm poison(self explanatory), ice troll heart(give your entire party 5 hp regen per turn, become immortal), black sap(immunity to charm and poison in exchange for a con save), theki root(make that con save at advantage), ryath root (temphp for the whole party), dreamlilly(become poisoned in exchange for death ward), murosa balm (fire resistance), eberron dragonshard (this singlehandedly allows a conjuration wizard to keep up with chron at late tier 2 through to tier four, and tier four is where things get fun)
> tbh everything else here is pretty obvious, grab mark of conjuring as your race if you can and have fun being a god amongst men


The ice troll heart is arguably magical (says it has "the following magical properties") and can't be created with Minor Conjuration. Also, I'm not sure what you mean with the dragonshard. Could you explain, because I can't even find the item? Only thing I can find is the spellshard, but that's definitely a magical item (so it can't be created with Minor Conjuration) and the only way I can think of abusing it is arguing that you make it with every spell in the game included, which is iffy at best.

Otherwise, quite the fun take, as long as you can satisfy the need to have seen the object you create with Minor Conjuration (that will often prove to be a problem unfortunately, but what can you do). Nice catch with the catapult munitions.

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## zariel_paladin

> The ice troll heart is arguably magical (says it has "the following magical properties") and can't be created with Minor Conjuration. Also, I'm not sure what you mean with the dragonshard. Could you explain, because I can't even find the item? Only thing I can find is the spellshard, but that's definitely a magical item (so it can't be created with Minor Conjuration) and the only way I can think of abusing it is arguing that you make it with every spell in the game included, which is iffy at best.
> 
> Otherwise, quite the fun take, as long as you can satisfy the need to have seen the object you create with Minor Conjuration (that will often prove to be a problem unfortunately, but what can you do). Nice catch with the catapult munitions.


eberron dragonshards can be used in case of costly components (of course depending on whether you follow crawford or not, you could just summon the components out of hand which works just as well)

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## Dualight

Big probelm with the dragonshards: they are explicitly magical, which disqualifies those too from Minor Conjuration: "Dragonshards ... are crystals imbued with magical energy." (Rising from the Last War p. 275) and "Minor Conjuration ... This object ... must be that of a nonmagical that you have seen"(PHB p. 116)
In other words, cool idea, a lot of flaws that not only do not work by RAW, but would also get shut down by any DM that pays any attention. (seriously, there is a non-magical item that deals damage equal to an upcast _fireball_ that is small enough for Minor Conjuration? I suspect that a lot of DMs will look at you oddly for expecting that they would let you use that at-will.)

As an aside, could you please share what sources you use for those items? The only one that I have heard of before would be the purple worm poison and the dragonshard, but I suppose that a lot of them are from specific adventures?

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## Chaos Jackal

> As an aside, could you please share what sources you use for those items? The only one that I have heard of before would be the purple worm poison and the dragonshard, but I suppose that a lot of them are from specific adventures?


Don't have all the sources readily available, but a lot of those, particularly the plants, are from Explorer's Guide to Wildemount while a couple are from Tomb of Annihilation I believe. The ice troll heart (which is magical and thus moot, but whatever) is in Rime of the Frostmaiden, while the catapult munition (which yeah, should actually work with Minor Conjuration) is from Strixhaven... I think. Hence my own comments regarding seeing a lot of these - Exandria-grown plants for example will arguably not be on the list of stuff a character in a generic campaign has seen. Funnily enough, despite the massive at-will damage it offers, catapult munitions should be one of the safest bets in comparison to a lot of the other suggested items.

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## zariel_paladin

> Big probelm with the dragonshards: they are explicitly magical, which disqualifies those too from Minor Conjuration: "Dragonshards ... are crystals imbued with magical energy." (Rising from the Last War p. 275) and "Minor Conjuration ... This object ... must be that of a nonmagical that you have seen"(PHB p. 116)
> In other words, cool idea, a lot of flaws that not only do not work by RAW, but would also get shut down by any DM that pays any attention. (seriously, there is a non-magical item that deals damage equal to an upcast _fireball_ that is small enough for Minor Conjuration? I suspect that a lot of DMs will look at you oddly for expecting that they would let you use that at-will.)
> 
> As an aside, could you please share what sources you use for those items? The only one that I have heard of before would be the purple worm poison and the dragonshard, but I suppose that a lot of them are from specific adventures?


technically an item with magical effects is not actually a magical item unless it is specifically stated to be a magic item
also look up 5etools and just use the search function on that with their names, it works fine

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## togapika

Since we're talking eclectic, anyone got any good builds using the Giff race?

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## Psyren

I made a couple of Fairy Tail builds I wanted to share, but isn't this thread past the page limit? Who's making the next one?

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## LudicSavant

> I made a couple of Fairy Tail builds I wanted to share, but isn't this thread past the page limit? Who's making the next one?


I will.

Hoping it doesn't close so I can update the first page with Eriol's stuff (once he's done).

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## Grene Kny3t

Hello Ludic, I recently started playing 5e, and the eclectic builds you and others have created in your thread have been a blast to read about and play.

However, I do have a couple of questions. I'm currently playing a nuclear wizard as a tank, and I noticed you mentioned the usefulness of wands of magic missiles with empowered evocation. Is there somewhere that confirms this interaction works? Specifically, does casting from a wand still count as the evoker casting an evocation spell as far as empowered evocation is concerned?

Also, I would love to know if you have any fun and interesting Bard builds/ideas. I've always loved Bards conceptually in past editions, and they seem more potent than ever in 5e.

Thanks

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## LudicSavant

> Hello Ludic, I recently started playing 5e, and the eclectic builds you and others have created in your thread have been a blast to read about and play.
> 
> However, I do have a couple of questions. I'm currently playing a nuclear wizard as a tank, and I noticed you mentioned the usefulness of wands of magic missiles with empowered evocation. Is there somewhere that confirms this interaction works? Specifically, does casting from a wand still count as the evoker casting an evocation spell as far as empowered evocation is concerned?


Per page 241 of the DMG, wands "allow *the user* to cast a spell from them."  You're using the Cast a Spell action, not the Use an Object Action (which is why it can't be used with, say, a Thief's Fast Hands).  It's still you casting a spell, effectively, and works the same except as specifically noted by the item rules.




> Also, I would love to know if you have any fun and interesting Bard builds/ideas. I've always loved Bards conceptually in past editions, and they seem more potent than ever in 5e.
> 
> Thanks


There are tons of fun possibilities for Bards; you can basically build them for any role you like. 

Bards are never far away from getting just about anything they could want.  Want armor and shield?  You can get that from a 1-level dip, or a Dex-boosting half-feat.  Want any given spells on your list?  You can get that from magical secrets, feats like Fey-Touched, GGtR backgrounds, dragonmarked or MPMM races, or that same 1-level dip that got you armor (like Hexblade 1 granting you Shield, AoA, Booming Blade, and Eldritch Blast, for instance). 

I'll say that if you want a tank/protector Bard, I prefer classes like Lore, Glamour, or Swords to Valor.  

Why not Valor for that?  Because their Bardic Inspiration (IMHO) isn't nearly as good for a tank/protector as the other 3 classes I named, and because Extra Attack isn't actually all that great on its own.  Not if your attacks aren't using your primary stat (Cha), aren't getting any boosts from class features like Fighting Style or the like, etc.  Sure, you could boost the strength of your Extra Attack with buff spells and it'll work fine, but you could have used those same spell slots on Animate Objects or something.

Now a Valor Bard can get more synergy with Extra Attack by dipping something (like, say, Hexblade or Paladin), but if they do so their level 3 proficiencies become redundant, so you might as well have been a Swords Bard anyway.

*Edit*:  You may also find this useful; in a recent thread I covered many of the uses of Lore Bard's Cutting Words.  

*Spoiler*
Show





> It can be used against any ability check, attack roll, or damage roll.
> 
> *Some notable cases: Damage Rolls*
> - Effects that can hit multiple targets simultaneously use one damage roll for _all_ targets.  If you Cutting Words the damage roll, *you cut it for everyone in an AoE, offering a party contribution similar in scope to a Mass Healing Word*.  You can even *considerably weaken a Nuclear Wizard's Magic Missile*.
> 
> - Cutting a damage roll does more than just save HP, it also can *preserve effects like Armor of Agathys for extra hits*, or *lower the DC of Concentration checks.
> *
> *Some notable cases:  Ability Checks*
> - Dropping an enemy's initiative can be incredibly valuable.  If you switch them from 'beating the party's initiative' to 'behind the party's initiative,' congratulations, they just *lost an entire turn with no save.*  Yes, it's that good.
> ...





*Edit2*:
- _Don't_ feel that you have to pick spells of the highest level you can currently learn when you gain Magical Secrets!  For example, the Bard already has a strong level 5 spell list (with stuff like Animate Objects and Synaptic Static).  So instead of getting 2x 5th level spells with your level 10 Magical Secrets, consider looking at other nice things.  Don't sleep on choices like Absorb Elements, Counterspell, or Find Greater Steed just because they're not 5th level spells!   Those things will stay relevant forever.
- Silvery Barbs (why does this spell exist?) is a huge boost to single-class Bards since without it they don't have good reaction spells like Shield or Absorb Elements (unless they used a Magical Secret for one).  Especially for Bards that don't get a Reaction from their subclass features (unlike, say, Lore Bard).
- Glamour Bard generates bloody _tons_ of mobility and temp HP for the party over the course of an adventuring day.  It creates a situation where you can freely rotate allies around the battlefield without any worries about OAs or the like, basically letting you choose who the enemy gets to deal with. 
- Lore Bard is extremely versatile and can be built to be good at pretty much anything with the right Magical Secrets.  They also are _extremely_ good at skills and utility; Rogues wish they could be like Lore Bards in this department.
- Swords Bard can stack AC _very_ high by grabbing shield+Shield, since that'll stack with their flourish.  
- Whispers Bard benefits a lot from getting its hands on a Hexblade dip, since that will let them use a melee cantrip and Cha for their attack (which will stack nicely with their Bardic Inspiration).  

Might post more Bard stuff if I ever find some time...

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## nerghull

Did you have a chance to try Creation Bard ?

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## JTVincible

Hi LudicSavant, love your builds! I have a question about the mechanics of a Control Flames bullseye lantern. Per the spell description, it can expand flames by five feet but there must be fuel in the place its expanded to. What exactly are you doing with the lantern? Surely were not hanging out in melee range to hit people with a little fire? Thanks!

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## LudicSavant

> Hi LudicSavant, love your builds! I have a question about the mechanics of a Control Flames bullseye lantern. Per the spell description, it can expand flames by five feet but there must be fuel in the place its expanded to. What exactly are you doing with the lantern? Surely were not hanging out in melee range to hit people with a little fire? Thanks!


The main thing Control Flames does for a Bullseye Lantern is it lets you make it significantly brighter (or dimmer too, if you want).

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## Eriol

Life happens.  Sorry for putting this down for so long, and only a few this morning.

Continuing where I left off...

*Builds created by other posters in this thread:*
The Caster's Bane, by Alucard89
Yuan-Ti, Warlock(Hexblade) 1, Paladin (Ancients) 12 Ancients, Sorcerer (Divine Soul) 7 - You are Bane of all casters.  You are also hell of a tank with high AC, high HP, tons of defensive spells, resistances and advantage vs spells.Plague Stalker, by Alucard89
VHuman, Druid (Spore) 15, Ranger (Gloom Stalker) 5 - You are the gloomy guardian of the forests.  Polearm Master, Warcaster, gish withranger/druid.The Astral Paraih, by ftafp
Paladin 2, Moon Druid X - Turn into an animal that glows with galaxies in its fur and then proceed to to rip and tear through everything in your path with claws and searing starlight. the crux of this is that both divne smite and radiant soul work while wild shapedThe Templar of Time, by Bobthewizard
Half-elf, Fighter (Echo Knight) 3, Warlock (Hexblade) 17 - Hexblade multiclass utilizing the new Echo Knight subclass, with great nova potential.The Hex Spoon by ftafp
Halfling (Mark of Hospitality), Cleric (Life) 1, Warlock (Hexblade of the Tome) 11, Sorcerer (Shadow) 5, Artificer (Alchemist) 3 - Coffeelock for infinite goodberries, with other interesting flavor.  *Read this post just for the excellent story!*The Skill Monkey's Country Cousin by Kvard51
Tabaxi, Rogue (Scout) 12, Warlock (Raven Queen) 3, Bard (Lore) 4, Ranger 1 - The point of the build is to be more of a Wilderness Skill Monkey.The Guardian of Balance by Benny89
Mark of Sentinel Human, Druid 1, Cleric (Arcana) - Reason for this build is pretty much to give Arcana Cleric Counterspell + Bigby's Hand. I think both are perfect tools that makes Arcana Cleric best all around martial-caster-support-area denial buildThe Underwater Basket Weaver by ftafp
Half Sea elf, Artificer (Alchemist) 2, Rogue (Thief) 3, Wizard (Conjuror) 3 - Support caster with good action economy & options.

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## Yattien

Is there any plans to update the first posts to be up to date?

I realise that keeping track of them all is likely very time consuming though so if not then all good! I just loved looking down the list and reading the ones that sounded good to me personally, I've even used some of the build.

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## Psyren

> Is there any plans to update the first posts to be up to date?
> 
> I realise that keeping track of them all is likely very time consuming though so if not then all good! I just loved looking down the list and reading the ones that sounded good to me personally, I've even used some of the build.


Given that the thread is at 51 pages we should probably just wait for a new OP. I'm personally holding off until the new thread is made before contributing.

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## LudicSavant

> Is there any plans to update the first posts to be up to date?


Yes.  I was holding off for Eriol's list.  But I might just do it before that.

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## Yattien

> Given that the thread is at 51 pages we should probably just wait for a new OP. I'm personally holding off until the new thread is made before contributing.


That might make sense. It's kind of what has put me off finding the latest build ideas, as there is a lot of pages to get through. I check occasionally, but not enough that I don't miss things as I don't use the forum much, mostly just come here for this thread.




> Yes.  I was holding off for Eriol's list.  But I might just do it before that.


Awesome, thanks the dedication, as I said above, I only ever really come to this forum for this thread and the class ideas contained within so knowing there is plans to update it is nice.

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## Eriol

> Yes.  I was holding off for Eriol's list.  But I might just do it before that.


Update with what I have so far (across a few posts).  Life is just not doing what I need to finish my update.  And then we had Fiona hit here this weekend, which doesn't help!

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## Dissented

Man has this been a great forum to stumble upon.  I'm actually really curious @Ludicsavant if you have any immediate changes to your Celestial Warlock Generalist concept as available content has changed since it's post.  Planning on trying it in a new campaign soon.  Thank you everyone for all of your contributions :)

----------


## Dissented

> Yes.  I was holding off for Eriol's list.  But I might just do it before that.


Man has this been a great forum to stumble upon. I'm actually really curious @Ludicsavant if you have any immediate changes to your Celestial Warlock Generalist concept as available content has changed since it's post. Planning on trying it in a new campaign soon. Thank you everyone for all of your contributions :)

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## mjp1050

> Given that the thread is at 51 pages we should probably just wait for a new OP. I'm personally holding off until the new thread is made before contributing.


Is that necessary? I know it's a forum tradition to start a new thread at 50 pages, but considering that this thread is a _de facto_ community showcase I'm wondering if it might be better to keep it as a single thread.

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## animorte

> Man has this been a great forum to stumble upon.  I'm actually really curious @Ludicsavant if you have any immediate changes to your Celestial Warlock Generalist concept as available content has changed since it's post.  Planning on trying it in a new campaign soon.  Thank you everyone for all of your contributions :)


It really is fantastic. Theres a reason I popped it in my sig. Thanks as always LS for your work on this and everybody else for input. Ive tried a few things in here and hope to contribute something worthwhile in the near future.

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## tiornys

I'll try to work on these while Eriol is unavailable

*Builds created by other posters in this thread:*
Lung Wang, by ftafp
Kobold, Artificer 1, Wizard (Conjuration, Necromancy, or Transmutation) X - A thought experiment build that attempts to recreate Pun-PunThe Cheese Grater, by Skylivedk
Aarakocra, Simic Hybrid or Wood Elf, Hexblade 3, Moon Druid 10, Fighter 2, Scout 3, Paladin 2 - abuse the cheese (Hexblade's Curse) and grate your enemies to a fine rotten milk smelling dust with Spiked GrowthGrapple Bard: My Shield is Here For You, by PancakeMaster80
VHuman, Fighter 1, Lore Bard 6, Hexblade 3, Lore Bard X - Grab and grate your enemiesThe Platinum-Tongued Diplomat, by Legospasm
Any +Cha race, Redemption Paladin 3, Eloquence Bard X - Play the ultimate face and talk your way past everything your DM throws at youAll in Persuasion, by Legospasm
Half Elf, Changeling, or VHuman, Redemption Paladin 3, Eloquence Bard X, Samurai Fighter 7, Archfey Warlock 1 - Getting the biggest Persuasion rolls possible without spellcastingGuardian Angel/Party Pleaser, by Legospasm
Protector Aasimar, Devotion Paladin 15, Eloquence Bard 5 or Devotion Paladin 5, Eloquence Bard 15 - Devoted to finding nonviolent solutions to encounters

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## choppedolive

What a great thread! Already planning to try a few of these in future games. Ludic, I was wondering if you had a take on what a strong Kensei might look like?

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## Protogeek

[QUOTE=

[B]Race:[/B] Yuan-Ti Pure Blood
*Stats*: 13 STR, 10 DEX, 15 CON, 10 WIS, 17 CHA (You can go 15 STR if you really want that plate armor, but in this build I prefer to have rounded stats to stack as much overall save throw bonuses as possible)
*ASI:* +1 CON,+1 CHA on level 5. +2 CHA on level 9, Sentinel level 13, Lucky level 17 or RES (CON/DEX) on level 17.
Progression: Paladin 1/Hexblade 1/Paladin 11/Divine Soul Sorcerer 7

I'm trying to replicate this build, which looks really fun.  But with race & all added in, I'm unable to get these stats with the standard array.  What stat is Int? 10?

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## mjp1050

> *Race:* Yuan-Ti Pure Blood
> *Stats*: 13 STR, 10 DEX, 15 CON, 10 WIS, 17 CHA (You can go 15 STR if you really want that plate armor, but in this build I prefer to have rounded stats to stack as much overall save throw bonuses as possible)
> *ASI:* +1 CON,+1 CHA on level 5. +2 CHA on level 9, Sentinel level 13, Lucky level 17 or RES (CON/DEX) on level 17.
> Progression: Paladin 1/Hexblade 1/Paladin 11/Divine Soul Sorcerer 7
> 			
> 		
> 
> I'm trying to replicate this build, which looks really fun.  But with race & all added in, I'm unable to get these stats with the standard array.  What stat is Int? 10?


Intelligence is 9 in this case. 

With point buy, you can get STR 13, DEX 10, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 10, and CHA 15. Add in the Yuan-Ti's stat bonuses to get INT 9 and CHA 17.

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## unseenllama

I'm looking at the 3rd build the wood elf fighter build for a new character because it looks simple but fun. As for the maneuvers I'm currently looking at:

- ambush or bait and switch
- brace
- trip attack

any thoughts on this from someone who has played a dex based battle master in the past?

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## Klorox

There are so many warlock builds that say to go celestial (well, the ones that arent hexblade). 

Can yall just touch on what makes the celestial so good?

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## ftafp

> There are so many warlock builds that say to go celestial (well, the ones that arent hexblade). 
> 
> Can yall just touch on what makes the celestial so good?


celestial isn't honestly all that great in terms of power. the main appeal of the subclass is that it gives warlock more to do during their turn than spam EB and adds a whole new healing element to an otherwise badly designed class. The other thing is that eldritch angels are just really cool

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## LudicSavant

> There are so many warlock builds that say to go celestial (well, the ones that arent hexblade). 
> 
> Can yall just touch on what makes the celestial so good?


I've got a demonstration of a Celestial Giftlock's capability here, including a link to having a party of just 4 of them doing MaxWilson's challenge dungeon with so much juice to spare that you could have cut the number of short rests down to a tiny fraction of what was offered and still crush it. 

___

Anyways, Celestial Warlocks are one of the better Warlocks subclasses because...

*Celestial Warlocks add a whole lot of extra durability to a party.* 
Healing Light is usable to yo-yo a huge number of times per day (scaling from 2 up to a whopping _21_ uses per day).  It also gives you a raw hp pool about the size of Lay on Hands... except as non-spell bonus actions.  

On top of that you've got Celestial Resilience giving you a whole bunch of temporary hit points to the whole party every short rest.  At level 10 it's 15 hp for you and 9 for 5 party members (or up to 60 hp value total), or up to 180 in a 2 short rest day.  At level 20 it's up to 100 hp value total, or 300 in a 2 SR day.  Obviously there's a good chance that some of that temp HP will be 'overhealing,' but even so, it's just plain good stuff.  Nearly as good as getting the Inspiring Leader feat.

On top of that you've got valuable seat-belt spells (Lesser Restoration, Greater Restoration, Revivify) and Cure Wounds on a short-rest recharge, which means you can use it like a "one hour ritual" (e.g. use them and get the slot back).  Essentially letting you more efficiently convert downtime into health and status cures.

As if all that wasn't enough, you've also got Searing Vengeance, which yo-yos yourself (complete with standing up from prone), action-economy free, for fully 50% of your hp, _and_ damages and blinds enemies.  Did I mention that was action-economy free?  

You even get always-on Resistance to Radiant damage, just because (fun fact: there are slightly more monsters in core+supplements that can deal Radiant damage than can deal Cold damage).

That's all... a lot, and we haven't even talked about the Warlock's base resources yet (spells, invocations, etc).  And those can be huge -- Gift of the Ever-Living Ones, Armor of Agathys, Darkness/Devil's Sight, potions administered by a Pact minion, you name it, you can toss that on there.  Just spend a half-feat on Moderately Armored, and you are tough as nails.  Easily tougher than most martials.

*Celestial Warlock expands your role, rather than replacing it*
A Celestial Warlock is still good at normal Warlock stuff.  Healing Light, Celestial Resilience, and Searing Vengeance don't use up your Actions at all.  Searing Vengeance doesn't just make you tougher, it also hurts and blinds the baddies with no save in a broad 65-foot diameter that won't hit allies.  And your level 6 feature is basically like the Draconic Sorcerer's elemental damage boost.  And Wall of Fire combos very nicely with Repelling Blast, allowing you to really shred Legendary or Magic Resistant creatures with no save hazard combos.

___

All that said, other Warlock subclasses are really good too.  Hexblade is well-known, of course.  Undead Warlock (the Ravenloft version) is only a moderately armored feat away from being a heavy duty remote tank.  Genie Warlock gets Wish and such.  Even Fiendlock gives a good way to boost d20 rolls, customized Resistance, an exploitable THP mechanic, and a no-save Legendary boss-killer feature at 14.

----------


## RogueJK

Plus, don't forget that a Celestial Tomelock with Green Flame Blade and Shillelagh can lay down solid CHA-SAD melee damage, with CHA bonus to hit, a SCAGtrip's scaling, and double your CHAMOD to damage, for times when you don't feel like doing that same old thing as almost every other Eldritch Blasting Warlock and want to mix it up in melee.  (All without ever even having to whisper the name "_Hexblade_".)

I played a switch-hitting Moderately Armored Celestial Tomelock in a recent campaign that ran from 3 to 13, and it was the most fun I've ever had playing a single-classed Warlock, and the most impactful/useful Warlock build I've ever played too. Good at range. Good in melee. Good with spellcasting. Good as a Face.  And with the Celestial abilities and spells, plus Book of Ancient Secrets for rituals, an amazing support character to boot.

I honestly think the Celestial Generalist build rivals the Divine Soul Sorcadin for the best "all-rounder" build in the game, without any need to multiclass, or wait levels for it to come online.

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## animorte

> Anyways, Celestial Warlocks are one of the better Warlocks subclasses because...


My deity of choice, that was brilliant. Thanks again, Ludic!




> (All without ever even having to whisper the name "_Hexblade_".)
> 
> I honestly think the Celestial Generalist build rivals the Divine Soul Sorcadin for the best "all-rounder" build in the game, without any need to multiclass, or wait levels for it to come online.


Thank the heavens for that.

Completely agree and I have a fair amount of experience with enough different Celestial and Divine Soul builds to second this. Been growing more accustomed to Paladins recently.

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## Nod_Hero

Anyone have any fun Plasmoid concepts?

----------

