# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  5e Absolute nonsense or maybe not?

## BerzerkerUnit

Not sure if this is RAW, but let me know:

A Heavy Crossbow is a Ranged Weapon. 
It doesnt matter if we shoot a bolt or club something with it, its a Ranged Weapon. 

It has the 2handed and Heavy properties, again, whether we shoot with it or club someone. 

So doesnt the Hvy Xbow meet the criteria for both Sharpshooter and GWM feats?

Even if we assume d4 as an improvised weapon, it is still a Hvy XBow with the 2 requisite properties. 

And further, do the SS and GWM feats technically allow for stacking?

Been a while since I critically read the text. Im pretty sure at the least you can trigger the bonus action attack. 

Any specific feedback re why this cant work is appreciated. I know why it shouldnt, I know its suboptimal (-10 is a bridge too far) but for comedy purposes, I am curious.

----------


## Kane0

> Any specific feedback re why this cant work is appreciated. I know why it shouldnt, I know its suboptimal (-10 is a bridge too far) but for comedy purposes, I am curious.


Nah seems about right

----------


## Segev

Technically,  it counts only as an improvised weapon if used that way. As a club, if the DM decides it does, but otherwise as just an improvised weapon.

----------


## Unoriginal

> Not sure if this is RAW, but let me know:
> 
> A Heavy Crossbow is a Ranged Weapon. 
> It doesnt matter if we shoot a bolt or club something with it, its a Ranged Weapon. 
> 
> It has the 2handed and Heavy properties, again, whether we shoot with it or club someone. 
> 
> So doesnt the Hvy Xbow meet the criteria for both Sharpshooter and GWM feats?
> 
> ...


As Segev said, if you use it to club someone it's just an improvised weapon, no special property .

Which does mean you can technically dual-wield heavy crossbows in melee, if you really wanted to.

Also, it very much does matter if you're shooting with it or clubbing people with it, to see if it counts as a Ranged weapon or not.

----------


## animorte

I believe there was actually a discussion on *flips through threads* some random thread I dont recall a couple months ago (except about a longbow probably). The conclusion was something along the lines of: the moment you choose to use it for an unintended purpose, it becomes an improvised weapon, and thus loses those previous properties for the purpose of the attack, or some such.

_P.S. Nice clickbait title you got there._

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> As Segev said, if you use it to club someone it's just an improvised weapon, no special property .
> 
> Which does mean you can technically dual-wield heavy crossbows in melee, if you really wanted to.
> 
> Also, it very much does matter if you're shooting with it or clubbing people with it, to see if it counts as a Ranged weapon or not.


Thanks all for your feedback!

Note: Im not pushing for a TURDSIC build, it could be said that SS and GWM are both feats intended to communicate exceptional mastery of a specific weapon group, it so happens one weapon meets all criteria. 

This gets into an interesting design space I enjoy thinking about and discussing though I rule with more practicality. 

To the points quoted:
Weapons losing their special properties when used in a manner inconsistent with their intent. I dont think that is RAW but I am by no means the encyclopedia of rules I once was. Is that stated somewhere? Im not saying it isnt reasonable, just whether or not its made explicit. 

To the bit about it not being a ranged weapon if youre melee attacking, that flies counter to what I had thought was a broadly accepted view, Ranged Weapon means under the Ranged Weapon headers on the equipment list. 

Note: I have always considered any weapon with a listed range increment to be considered a ranged weapon for the purposes of Sharpshooter and Archery FS. But that is evidently not widely accepted. 

I think the strictest reading of the improvised weapon attack isnt intended to turn specific things into amorphous blobs that deal 1d4. The DM is supposed to take their nature into consideration when determining how much damage they might deal. 

Attacking with the buttstock of a crossbow is a reasonable use. Even if you consider it isnt an intended use that doesnt mean it isnt a Ranged Weapon which is all SS is concerned with RAW, it doesnt keep it from having the heavy property and it is making a melee attack, which are all GWM is concerned with RAW. 

Again, I think, from a pure mechanics perspective it works, and I think you could let it slide for one shots or PCs that show up for a fraction of sessions as comic relief etc. 

I hope this kind of thing is taken into consideration when theyre writing 1DD. 

Thanks again everybody!

----------


## Segev

> Weapons losing their special properties when used in a manner inconsistent with their intent. I dont think that is RAW but I am by no means the encyclopedia of rules I once was. Is that stated somewhere? Im not saying it isnt reasonable, just whether or not its made explicit.


Under the rules for ranged weapons, it says that if you use them as melee weapons, you're making improvised weapons out of them, and to use those rules. Improvised weapon rules state that the DM can choose to either use an existing weapon as the "effective" weapon the improvised weapon counts as (the given example is a table leg counting as a club; in one game, I had an unbreakable arrow sized for a Large creature's bow that my PC used as an improvised weapon that counted as a rapier), or, if the DM can't think of a good matching existing weapon, it gives the rules as being a weapon that does 1d4+str mod damage of a type suited to the improvised weapon (usually bludgeoning, for most objects).

Because you're wielding a heavy crossbow "like a club," the DM probably will rule it counts as a greatclub - retaining its two-handed property. He might rule it's actually just a club and you can one-hand it when using it in this fashion. Or even a hammer of some sort, depending how you're wielding it. It's up to the DM, though.

But yes, it becomes, for mechanical purposes, a different weapon than it's listed as when you wield it as an improvised weapon, which you do when you try to hit things in melee with a ranged weapon.

----------


## BerzerkerUnit

> Under the rules for ranged weapons, it says that if you use them as melee weapons, you're making improvised weapons out of them, and to use those rules. Improvised weapon rules state that the DM can choose to either use an existing weapon as the "effective" weapon the improvised weapon counts as (the given example is a table leg counting as a club; in one game, I had an unbreakable arrow sized for a Large creature's bow that my PC used as an improvised weapon that counted as a rapier), or, if the DM can't think of a good matching existing weapon, it gives the rules as being a weapon that does 1d4+str mod damage of a type suited to the improvised weapon (usually bludgeoning, for most objects).
> 
> Because you're wielding a heavy crossbow "like a club," the DM probably will rule it counts as a greatclub - retaining its two-handed property. He might rule it's actually just a club and you can one-hand it when using it in this fashion. Or even a hammer of some sort, depending how you're wielding it. It's up to the DM, though.
> 
> But yes, it becomes, for mechanical purposes, a different weapon than it's listed as when you wield it as an improvised weapon, which you do when you try to hit things in melee with a ranged weapon.


I see, fair enough. That said; I dont know if youve been through rifle training to use the stock of the weapon in melee, but it isnt being used like a club. Further bayonet training is similar to fundamentally different from spear training due to the grip you have on the weapon.

An entertaining thought experiment in any case. Thanks again!

----------


## No brains

I have never liked the 'improvised weapons have no properties' ruling. It goes against an intuitive understanding of how bonking people works and only opens the door for worse weirdness.

For example, Hexbaldes can cheat what weapons can be their (forgot term) hex weapon by always choosing to use them as an improvised weapon. This means a Halfling Hexblade could attack with their charisma modifier using a Blackrazor, without disadvantage, if they always chose to deal 1d4 damage with it. A Kensei could probably pull off a similar lifehack.

It means no improvised weapon will ever be wielded two handed. Regardless of weight, it will forever lack the two-handed or heavy properties. 

If you want to take this as far as possible, saying 'improvised weapons have no properties' doesn't even work with the improvised weapons rules because improvised weapons have a range property.

I always want rule of funny to win when a player wants to do something that honestly isn't that good of an idea. There's already a bunch of ways to build a character 'powerful' or 'optimal' or 'right' or 'good' that if a player wants to build a character that's 'power-wrong', it won't hurt the experience. If someone wants to be a high-roller and attempt to fight at -10 to try to hit for +20 damage, I say let them. When they see a roll of 16 misses a hobgoblin, maybe nature will take its course, but that one beautiful round before that hobgoblin's martial advantage and betting on boring ends the game will always be a treasure.

Plus, if a DM is really worried about the 'imbalance' of hitting for +20, send in a Quadrone. Flight and a shortbow ace the maximum range of an improvised weapon every time.

----------


## JNAProductions

> I have never liked the 'improvised weapons have no properties' ruling. It goes against an intuitive understanding of how bonking people works and only opens the door for worse weirdness.
> 
> For example, Hexbaldes can cheat what weapons can be their (forgot term) hex weapon by always choosing to use them as an improvised weapon. This means a Halfling Hexblade could attack with their charisma modifier using a Blackrazor, without disadvantage, if they always chose to deal 1d4 damage with it. A Kensei could probably pull off a similar lifehack.
> 
> It means no improvised weapon will ever be wielded two handed. Regardless of weight, it will forever lack the two-handed or heavy properties. 
> 
> If you want to take this as far as possible, saying 'improvised weapons have no properties' doesn't even work with the improvised weapons rules because improvised weapons have a range property.
> 
> I always want rule of funny to win when a player wants to do something that honestly isn't that good of an idea. There's already a bunch of ways to build a character 'powerful' or 'optimal' or 'right' or 'good' that if a player wants to build a character that's 'power-wrong', it won't hurt the experience. If someone wants to be a high-roller and attempt to fight at -10 to try to hit for +20 damage, I say let them. When they see a roll of 16 misses a hobgoblin, maybe nature will take its course, but that one beautiful round before that hobgoblin's martial advantage and betting on boring ends the game will always be a treasure.
> ...


It's not "Has no properties ever," it's "Has no properties by default."

----------


## Keltest

> It's not "Has no properties ever," it's "Has no properties by default."


For that matter, I'm not sure how one would use an actual melee weapon as an improvised melee weapon. There's nothing improvised about it, it just already is one.

----------


## No brains

> For that matter, I'm not sure how one would use an actual melee weapon as an improvised melee weapon. There's nothing improvised about it, it just already is one.


When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. But if you find a nail and all you have is a sword, you start to get creative. Enter mordschlag. Using a weapon outside it's intended function is an act of improvisation. With a weapon. Improvised weapon.

Additionally, the easiest way to adjudicate what happens when you use a two-handed weapon in one hand is to treat it as an improvised weapon. A greatsword hefted in one hand will still definitely cut someone, but giving up the other hand sacrifices precision and power. Ergo, d4 damage, no proficiency bonus.

----------


## Chronos

The bit about improvised weapons that amuses me is Tavern Brawler.  Find an improvised weapon that resembles some real weapon (say, a woodsman's axe instead of a battleaxe or greataxe), and you're actually _more_ effective with it than you are with the thing designed as a weapon, because using it gives you the option of grappling as a bonus action.

----------


## Segev

> The bit about improvised weapons that amuses me is Tavern Brawler.  Find an improvised weapon that resembles some real weapon (say, a woodsman's axe instead of a battleaxe or greataxe), and you're actually _more_ effective with it than you are with the thing designed as a weapon, because using it gives you the option of grappling as a bonus action.


I mean, you've spent a feat on it at that point. Having a quirky version of a weapon is practically a trope at this point.

----------

