# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  Longtooth Shifter Fighter

## Morrison

I really like the flavour of the Longtooth Shifter, and I think they would probably benefit a lot from the Fighter class.  What's a fighter build (subclass, feat selection, etc.) that would be effective while leaving my Bonus Action open for that Bite attack?
I feel like action economy is the one thing I am never good at predicting in the early stages of character-building.

----------


## RogueJK

Something to keep in mind is that unless you're also a Monk 6+ (which is typically redundant because they already get a BA unarmed strike), your Bonus Action Bite unarmed strike is never going to be magical.  So you're going to quickly start to run into enemies that your magical weapon can damage but your nonmagical bite can't.

However, a way around the lack of magical damage (and the bite's low damage output to begin with) is to lean into your Bonus Action Bite attack as a Grapple/Shove attempt instead of a damaging attack.  

To facilitate this playstyle, something like a Raging Barbarian or a Rune Knight Fighter using Giant's Might would get bonuses to Grappling and Shoving, and/or you could take the Skill Expert feat for Athletics Expertise.

Basically, you'd get your full complement of 1x/2x/3x weapon attacks with your Action, plus get a free Bonus Action Shove/Grapple while shifted.  And unlike something like Shield Master feat, the bite's BA Shove doesn't have to come after your Attack(s), so you can BA Shove an enemy prone at the start of your turn and then have Advantage on all your normal weapon Attacks against that prone enemy during the rest of your turn.  Great for offsetting the GWM attack penalty.


Since you asked about Fighter specifically, an effective Longtooth Shifter Fighter could look something like this:

Rune Knight Fighter
15+2 STR
10 DEX
15+1 CON
8 INT
14 WIS
8 CHA
Racial Athletics skill proficiency
Take Skill Expert at Fighter 4 for another skill proficiency, Athletics Expertise, and 18 STR
Take Great Weapon Master at Fighter 6
18 CON at Fighter 8, 20 STR at Fighter 12, 20 CON at Fighter 14, then whatever floats your boat from there (like Lucky)
Great Weapon or Defense fighting style

Wear Heavy Armor and wield a Greatsword or Maul

While shifted, Shove Prone using your BA bite attack, then make GWM attacks against the prone enemy with Advantage.
And even when you're not Shifted, you're still a very effective Rune Knight melee fighter, and you continue to get occasional BA attacks via GWM.

----------


## RogueJK

But speaking of Longtooth Monks, if you're willing to consider something besides a Fighter, here's a Longtooth Shifter Monk concept I came up with a while back.  It's not super-optimized, but has some interesting flavor and synergy despite the nontraditional build.

Basically, it's set up as a "Weredragon" Shifter who's a STR-based weapon-using Dragon Monk wearing heavy armor.  Wearing armor/shield removes the Monk's Martial Arts ability and therefore your monk BA unarmed strike, but you don't need that since you have the Longtooth Shifter BA Bite unarmed strike, along with other BA attack options as discussed below.  Wearing armor also cancels you Unarmored Movement increase.  But every other Monk and subclass ability continues to function as normal when wearing armor.

Longtooth Shifter War Cleric 1 -> Ascendant Dragon Monk X
STR 15+2
DEX 13
CON 13+1
INT 8
WIS 14
CHA 9
Racial Skill: Intimidation
Cleric Skills: Insight, Persuasion
Background Skills: Athletics, Perception
Cleric Cantrips: Guidance, Mending, Sacred Flame
Cleric 1st level Spells (2 slots per day): Bless, Healing Word, Detect Magic, Shield of Faith*, Divine Favor*
ASI: Crusher for 18 STR at Monk 4, then 16 WIS at Monk 8, and 18 WIS at Monk 12.

Use Heavy Armor, a Shield, and a Warhammer.

This character has multiple options for Bonus Action Attacks, despite the loss of the Martial Arts ability due to wearing armor:
1) War Priest for a free BA Warhammer Attack 2x/3x per day
2) Utilizing Dedicated Weapon to make the Warhammer a Monk Weapon, Ki-Fueled Attack allows for a BA Warhammer attack anytime you spend Ki during your Action (such as with Focused Aim or Stunning Strike)
3) Longtooth Shifting enables a BA Bite attack for 1 minute at a time, with Shifting usable Proficiency Bonus times per day. This can be combined with using 1 Ki for Flurry of Blows while Shifted to make 2x Bite Attacks per BA. You can also swap the bite's damage to elemental damage via Draconic Strike.

And you could also use Ki to enable Bonus Action Step of the Wind or Patient Defense if needed.

You end up with a bunch of "weredragon" features, like a bite attack, breath weapon, fear aura, draconic wings, elemental resistance, etc.  And because you're a Monk, starting at Monk 6 your bite attack becomes magical, to allow it to still be relevant against higher level foes with resistance/immunity to nonmagical attacks.

Note that this doesn't specifically have to be an Ascendant Dragon Monk, if you don't want specifically the "weredragon" theme and the draconic features like breath weapon, etc.  You can go with any other type of werecreature shifter and a different monk subclass like Kensai, which works especially well with a weapon-using armored Monk.

----------


## strangebloke

It's not optimal at all but if you have the unarmed fighting style that 1d6 becomes a 1d8. Three attacks for 1d8+STR at level 5 isn't great but it is okay. The primary reason to do this is to have hands open for purposes of grappling, which of course is the domain of the rune knight (and is also just really cool when combined with shifter. Big Bad Wolf anyone?) There is a problem here of needing to layer bonus actions (bite + giants might + shift) but it can work out with a little fiddling.

Get a couple druid levels and you can do things like cast spike growth, action surge, grab someone, and drag them.

RogueJK is right though that a more conventional GWM build that uses the shifter bonus to shove is probably better.

----------


## Spo

This thread on Longtooth shifters might give you some ideas.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...east-Barbarian

Hope this helps

----------


## elyktsorb

> Something to keep in mind is that unless you're also a Monk 6+ (which is typically redundant because they already get a BA unarmed strike), your Bonus Action Bite unarmed strike is never going to be magical.  So you're going to quickly start to run into enemies that your magical weapon can damage but your nonmagical bite can't.


Fun fact, there are items that give your unarmed attacks magical properties.  For instance the Eldritch Claw Tattoo can make your unarmed strikes count as magical, as well as give it +1 to hit and damage, and it has a neat bonus that once per day you can activate an effect it has to give all your melee weapon/unarmed attacks 15ft of range.  I think there may be one or two others, but if I intended on using a character who won't be getting a way to make their unarmed attack magical through class abilities, I would convey to my dm that I would like that magic item to show up.  Sure your sacking one of your attunements on this, but the other option is being locked into Monk, and if you are a monk, why bother picking a race with a bonus action attack.  Yes I saw the above build, never been a fan of monks going heavy armor stuff.  But that's neither here or there.


I personally don't know much about fighter, but I am currently playing a Longtooth Shifter Totem Barbarian/Spore Druid, so I'm getting an additional 1d6 necrotic on all of my attacks as long as my symbiotic entity is up.  And my rage resists nearly all damage, which effectively doubles my pool of temp hp and helps me keep my additional necrotic rider damage for longer.  The action economy for this isn't great if you don't prepare, always try to have your spores up before going into combat, and be shifted as well if you can.  Thankfully Longtooth shifter allows you to shift and make the bonus action attack in the same turn.

Anyway, as it applies to fighter, a spore druid combo likely wouldn't work since you'd never have enough temp hp to go more than 1 round of fighting for the most part.  Even Echo Knight isn't all that good for a Longtooth because you can't use bonus action attacks through your echo.  

Honestly there isn't a lot of Fighter subclasses that specifically synergize with having an unarmed strike as a bonus action attack, especially as some fighter features require it be a weapon attack, and unarmed strikes are not weapon attacks.  For instance an unarmed strike isn't eligible to be used with half of the Battle Master's maneuvers as they require weapon attacks to function.

Sure, it's an extra 1d6 of damage every turn, and some temp hp you get from shifting, but there are probably better races to pick from.  

In all honesty Champion is probably the one that has the most actual synergy, and that's just because your getting an additional attack, which is just another opportunity to crit.

----------


## Unoriginal

> Honestly there isn't a lot of Fighter subclasses that specifically synergize with having an unarmed strike as a bonus action attack, especially as some fighter features require it be a weapon attack, and unarmed strikes are not weapon attacks.  For instance an unarmed strike isn't eligible to be used with half of the Battle Master's maneuvers as they require weapon attacks to function.


Unarmed strikes are weapon attacks (as opposed to spell attacks), what they are not is "attacks with a weapon". Most of the maneuvres work with unarmed strikes.

For OP, my advice is to look for all features that benefits from having more attacks.

EX: the Psi Warrior and Rune Knight have features that et them add damage only once per turn, but their features trigger with a hit, therefore having a bonus action attack still helps.

----------


## Rukelnikov

> Unarmed strikes are weapon attacks (as opposed to spell attacks), what they are not is "attacks with a weapon". Most of the maneuvres work with unarmed strikes.
> 
> For OP, my advice is to look for all features that benefits from having more attacks.
> 
> EX: the Psi Warrior and Rune Knight have features that et them add damage only once per turn, but their features trigger with a hit, therefore having a bonus action attack still helps.


I don't think Psi Warrior works because it needs to be with a weapon.

But battle master for BA trip and a bit of damage could work.

----------


## Unoriginal

> I don't think Psi Warrior works because it needs to be with a weapon.


You're absolutely correct, the Psi Warrior's Psionic Strike says you have to deal damage with a weapon.





> But battle master for BA trip and a bit of damage could work.


Plenty of maneuvres work with a bonus action unarmed attack, it's true tripping your opponent then unleashing two-to-four Greatsword attacks at lvl 5 is going to leave a dent on most antagonists.

----------


## RogueJK

> But battle master for BA trip and a bit of damage could work.





> Plenty of maneuvres work with a bonus action unarmed attack, it's true tripping your opponent then unleashing two-to-four Greatsword attacks at lvl 5 is going to leave a dent on most antagonists.


Whereas even a non-Battle Master can use that BA unarmed bite attack to attempt to "trip" an enemy by Shoving them prone, as pointed out in my initial Rune Knight build post.

And not only does that Shove not use up your limited Maneuver dice, it also _doesn't require that you hit first_.  

Plus, it can potentially be harder to prevent than a Trip Attack maneuver, if you stack things like Advantage and Expertise.  For example, at Level 5 a Battle Master with 18 STR has a STR save DC of 14 on its Trip maneuver.  But a Level 5 Rune Master with using the build I posted with 18 STR, Athletics proficiency and Expertise, and Advantage on Athletics checks from Giant's Might is rolling best of 2d20, plus 9.  If we use the accepted simple math of Advantage being roughly equal to +5 on a d20 roll, that's approximately a minimum of a 15 on your Athletics check (1+5+9), and a very good likelihood of it being higher.  So effectively the "save DC" of that opposed Shove would be 15+ compared to Trip's 14 (assuming you hit in the first place and can trigger Trip at all).

Finally, Trip is limited to enemies that are Large or smaller, whereas a Shove is limited to an enemy that is no more than one size category larger than you.  As a Rune Knight with Giant's Might activated, you're Large and can Shove prone Huge enemies, whereas even a Large sized Battle Master (from something like Enlarge/Reduce) can't Trip a Huge enemy.

----------


## Unoriginal

> Whereas even a non-Battle Master can use that BA unarmed bite attack to attempt to "trip" an enemy by Shoving them prone, as pointed out in my initial Rune Knight build post.


Would be great if possible, but it doesn't work:




> *Shoving a Creature*
> Using the Attack Action, you can make a Special melee Attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If youre able to make multiple Attacks with the Attack Action, this Attack replaces one of them.


You could Shove with your Attack action's first attack, then use your second attack and your bonus action attack on the shoved enemy, but you can't use the regular Shove with a bonus action attack.

----------


## RogueJK

Wow.  I can't believe I overlooked/misremembered that.  We've been running that incorrectly in my game, allowing a Shove to replace any attack, not just an attack made with the Attack Action...


Then absolutely, the Battle Master is the better Fighter option to take advantage of that Bonus Action bite attack.  BA bite to attempt to trigger Trip (even if it does no/minimal damage), and then 2-4 GWM attacks at Advantage on the Prone enemy:

Battle Master Fighter
15+2 STR
10 DEX
15+1 CON
8 INT
14 WIS
8 CHA
Trip Maneuver, plus whichever other Maneuvers interest you
Take Slasher/Crusher/Heavy Armor Master/Skill Expert at Fighter 4 for 18 STR
Take Great Weapon Master at Fighter 6
20 STR at Fighter 8, then whatever floats your boat from there (like 18-20 CON, Resilient WIS, Lucky, etc.)
Great Weapon, Defense, or potentially even Superior Technique fighting style (for an additional Trip attempt dice)

Wear Heavy Armor and wield a Greatsword or Maul

While shifted, use your BA bite attack to trigger the Trip Maneuver, then make GWM attacks against the prone enemy with Advantage.
And even when you're not Shifted, you're still a very effective Battle Master melee fighter, and you continue to get occasional BA attacks via GWM.

----------

