# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  New bugbear dual wielder build ponderings

## Spacehamster

So since most campaigns go to about 13 if its the higher level ones I were thinking of a gloom stalker, battle master, twilight cleric multiclass build. With his +2 and +1 in DEX and WIS respectively and standard array level 1 abilities of 12/17/14/8/14/10. Not sure how many levels to put in each, build would need 3 ASIs. So either gloom 5, battle mast 4, twilight 4 or 8 fig, 4 gloom and 1 twilight seems the most viable. All starting with 1 twilight cleric for advantage on initiative resource.

ASI use if 3: piercer or skill expert, 2 DEX, alert
ASI use if 4: piercer or skill expert, 2 DEX, alert and maybe mobile as final feat.

So how would you build this boy? Only with these classes, 13 levels to go with and no suggestions for a pure build or other classes.

Happy new year everyone!

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## Dork_Forge

Fighter 1-6

Ranger 7-10

Cleric 11

Fighter 12-13

ASIs in order: Piercer, Alert, +2 Dex, Fighting Initiate

I wouldn't take Cleric at 1, it's a martial build and you don't want to delay what makes you good at that with Fighter giving a little more HP and Con saves as a bonus.

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## Spacehamster

> Fighter 1-6
> 
> Ranger 7-10
> 
> Cleric 11
> 
> Fighter 12-13
> 
> ASIs in order: Piercer, Alert, +2 Dex, Fighting Initiate
> ...


Would agree normally, but bugbear is a special case where I would rather have better initiative his full career rather than getting 2nd attack 1 level faster.

2d6 on every attack you go before the enemy you hit is yuge. Level 1 if attack action hits and bonus hits is either 6d6 + DEX or 2d6+ DEX depending on how you roll your initiative. :) And WIS tend to be the better save in the long run.

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## Keravath

> Would agree normally, but bugbear is a special case where I would rather have better initiative his full career rather than getting 2nd attack 1 level faster.
> 
> 2d6 on every attack you go before the enemy you hit is yuge. Level 1 if attack action hits and bonus hits is either 6d6 + DEX or 2d6+ DEX depending on how you roll your initiative. :) And WIS tend to be the better save in the long run.


If maximizing the benefit of the first round +2d6 damage against creatures that haven't taken a turn yet is the primary goal of the build then you would be looking at 

Gloomstalker 3, fighter 2, cleric 1 to get the character elements you are looking for. 

Gloomstalker could be a key element of the build. +wis to initiative, + additional attack in the first round of combat, +invisibility in darkness (the extra damage on attacks doesn't help much if they miss). 

Fighter 2 is for action surge. However, with only one attack, action surge will only give you 2 attacks 1 time/short rest - so getting extra attack before action surge makes more sense. 

However, ASIs and extra attack are also important. 

In terms of saving throws - ranger is dex/str, fighter is con/str and cleric is wis/cha. My opinion is that the ranger saves are the least desirable. Con saves are really good if you will regularly be in melee casting spells but I don't think that is the case here. 

Given that you really want advantage on initiative (and the 300' shareable darkvision is cool too - plus some utility spells like emergency healing word) - I'd probably suggest going with the twilight cleric level first if that is your goal. 

Twlight cleric 1 -> Gloomstalker Ranger 5 -> Fighter 3 would be the order if you prioritize the gloomstalker abilities. You won't get action surge until 8 and the battlemaster maneuvers until 9 but with so many classes something has to wait. You will also only have one feat before level 10. 

If you want to prioritize the feats then
Twilight cleric 1 -> Fighter 6 -> Gloomstalker 3 will give you 2 feats before level 11. Swapping in fighter 8 instead will give you 3 feats by level 9 but the gloomstalker aspect to the character becomes an after thought since it would not come into play before level 12. 

So, you need to decide whether you find the gloomstalker abilities more interesting/useful than the fighter ones or not and the trade off is mostly in terms of how long you have to wait for feats. 

In terms of the feats, I am personally not a fan of the piercer feat - rerolling a damage die is situationally useful but if the damage is above 50% on the die you won't be using it and you can still roll lower. An extra die on a crit is cool but really not much of a factor. Depending on the campaign, you might get more mileage from the Skilled feat. Expertise in perception or another commonly used skill can be extremely useful.

P.S. If you are thinking of taking gloomstalker to 7+ then I would be tempted to start with a level of fighter since the gloomstalker gains proficiency with wisdom saves at level 7.

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## Bobthewizard

> Would agree normally, but bugbear is a special case where I would rather have better initiative his full career rather than getting 2nd attack 1 level faster.
> 
> 2d6 on every attack you go before the enemy you hit is yuge. Level 1 if attack action hits and bonus hits is either 6d6 + DEX or 2d6+ DEX depending on how you roll your initiative. :) And WIS tend to be the better save in the long run.


I like Dork Forge's, but another option is more Gloomstalker. Whatever class you want to prioritize should get to level 5 first, then look at multiclassing. So I'd go with this. 

Gloomstalker 1-5
Twilight 6
Battlemaster 7-10
Gloomstalker 11-13

This gets you your 3 ASI's by level 13. You are trading one ASI for the ranger's better spellcasting and free WIS saves.

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## diplomancer

I'd go Ranger 1, Cleric 1, Ranger 5. From there either go straight to Ranger 8, finishing it off with Fighter levels, or go straight to Fighter 4, finishing it up with Ranger levels (I start with Ranger so as to get the Wis saving throw proficiency of Gloom Stalker 7). I feel the second option is better, but you're delaying your ASI for two levels instead of one.

That said: What is the Str for in the build? I think it's best to dump it and bring Wis to 16, or maybe even to 17. Leave Dex at 16, get Fey-Touched (Gift of Alacrity) instead of Alert, and raise Dex to 20. Now you have a plus 9 + 1D8 to your initiative, which will usually be better than the +12 you get with your build.

Getting the misty step spell from Fey-touched also helps to close the distance for those combats where you start too far away to attack on the first round. I'd also recommend having short sword + dagger, instead of two short swords, and an extra short sword and dagger in your belt. This way, if you start in melee range, you drop your dagger and draw your short sword and attack away; if you're NOT in melee range, you can drop your short sword, get your dagger, and throw them instead. The important thing is not to miss the attack on the first round (you can also do the same with a Long Bow and short sword instead, as long as your DM is fine with you carrying the longbow with one hand without firing it... He should be, both by RAW and by reason... But you never know).

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