# Forum > Discussion > Media Discussions >  Star Wars: Andor  BBY5

## Maelstrom

So, now that the series is out.. 

First thoughts...Finally, within seconds of the opening, we have a date and a new system.  And then a few more and humans speaking a non standard language (for once)!

It's Star Wars, but ....not.  I remember reading somewhere it was going to be a story set in the star wars universe, and after watching the first episode, I'm intrigued (and no, I did not watch the trailer...Stopped watching those a ways back).  

Not a whole lot has happened yet, but a few things have been setup and I'm on to episode 2 to see if things move along...

----------


## Palanan

Watched the first three episodes.

Overallreally, really excellent.  Solid drama, good acting, some genuinely poignant scenes.  The first three episodes form a self-contained story with several braided arcs, and how its structured is some of the best visual storytelling Ive seen from a Star Wars property.

*Spoiler*
Show

The first two episodes are generally low-key, taking their time to develop the setting and the mood before things escalate in the third.  This is Star Wars right at the ground level, with aftermarket garages, two-bit operators and personal dramas.  There are actual adult relationships here, and what seems to be the first red-light district for Star Wars proper.  

We also have a more detailed characterization of the villains than we usually seefrom low-level slackers to overeager junior officers, and apart from the surface humor its unexpectedly humanizing.  This is the first time Ive ever felt sympathy for an Imperial officer, or at least Imperial-adjacent.  His timid, hesitant speech to the landing team had me feeling hopelessly awkward right there with him, and the sergeants increasingly pained expression in the background was absolutely hilarious.   

Ship design rocks.  Raels ride is an interesting merger of familiar elements, and the corvette with its set of landing pods feels like Brutalist design applied to support craft.  The landing pods themselves are a little goofy, but they do recall the mini-shuttle from Rebels.  And Im pretty sure some of the shipyard cranes and machinery are based on designs from Fallen Order.

Fiona Shaw steals the show, with a tremendous amount of character folded into her relatively brief screen time.  Theres a full range of emotion explored in these first episodes, and it feels like real human emotion, rather than the rather cartoonish and superficial type more often on display in recent Star Wars media.  These are people with lives freshly torn apart, and seeing it up close creates far greater personal empathy than some of the Empires grander sins.

The one scene that was a bit much was the shootout in the abandoned industrial space, with the engine blocks swinging on chains and thumping down dramatically.  It felt a little too contrived, as if a DM had come up with a special deathtrap room that the party absolutely had to get through.  For those scenes I felt the junior officers shock and confusion far more than Cassians.

Also, I found it a little distracting to have the frequent callbacks to the sequel trilogy, in terms of highly recognizable background aliens which were too obviously placed for some retro-continuity.  This show does better when it gives us its own aliens, and I can only hope that well have more of those in coming episodes.

This is a very strong start to the series, and while weve seen strong starts that fizzle and sputter out, there is enough depth and sophistication here that Im feeling confident the best is yet to come.

----------


## JadedDM

I heard some people complaining there were barely any, if any at all, easter eggs or cameos from other properties.

And that alone is what sold me on it.  I'll probably watch the first episode tonight at dinner.   :Small Cool:

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Maelstrom*
> _...humans speaking a non standard language_.



*Spoiler: Language Puzzle*
Show

Do we know what language is standing in for native Kenari? 

Some phrases seem to be heavily accented Portuguese, since I heard his little sister saying she was hungry, and the bands leader saying she saw two bodies at the crash.  Not sure if this is a conlang or something else.

----------


## Peelee

Easily the best Star Wars since Mandalorian. I'm loving the fresh new take on the Star Wars universe, devoid of any noticeable amount of Filoni's touch.

----------


## runeghost

While I've been a fan of Filoni's work on Star Wars, Andor does not suffer for his absence. I'm really like this so far. It seems extremely well done. (Better than Rings of Power, or House of the Dragon, for me.) Nailing the Star Wars feel of zeerust, space opera and more, while also being its own thing and hitting on all cylinders.

----------


## Vinyadan

> I heard some people complaining there were barely any, if any at all, easter eggs or cameos from other properties.


Wait -- are you telling me that the series does not, in fact, include a scene of Mary Poppins whipping Mr T's bare buttocks while drinking tea straight from Mrs Potts? I guess I'm out, then  :Small Mad:

----------


## Peelee

> Wait -- are you telling me that the series does not, in fact, include a scene of Mary Poppins whipping Mr T's bare buttocks while drinking tea straight from Mrs Potts? I guess I'm out, then


Mr. T is too wholesome to do such a scene.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *runeghost*
> _Better than Rings of Power, or House of the Dragon, for me._


Absolutely.  I watched the first three episodes of House of the Dragon, and found that after three hours I still didnt care about any of the characters or what (little) was going on.  And we wont even talk about Rings of Whatever.

But five minutes into this, I was intrigued and engaged; five more minutes I was fully drawn in.  Completely new planets, completely new characters, no discernible fanservice and surprisingly human antagonists.

Add to that a deeper and more sophisticated style of storytelling, far different from the rather basic approach in other recent Star Wars items.  The more I think on it, the more impressed I become.

Im hoping that subsequent episodes will be closer to the one-hour mark apiece, or at least 45-50 minutes, just because I want to maximize my weekly immersion in this vision of Star Wars.  So far its been time well spent.

----------


## JadedDM

Yeah, it's nice how the show acknowledges there are more than like, 5 planets in the entire universe.   :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Peelee

> Yeah, it's nice how the show acknowledges there are more than like, 5 planets in the entire universe.


Every show except BoBF introduced new planets, most of them predominantly on new planets. And BoBF didn't because they were kind of already stuck with him on Tatooine to start with.

----------


## ecarden

Generally enjoyed it and it does a good job of making the universe feel both real and big. Mostly. The whole 'we'll find one guy based on his potential planetary origin' was a bit silly. Still, they do a good job of selling it as only happening due to luck (bad, or good depends on the side).

----------


## Dire_Flumph

I liked it.  Not over the moon about it yet, but a solid foundation, and I'm looking forward to more.  It's nice they feel they can slow things down and take their time establishing the setting here, the same basic setup of episodes 1-3 was about the first 5 minutes in Solo.  But I'm hoping the lack of action up front doesn't cost them.  The show certainly lost my kids' interest before episode 1 had finished.

*Spoiler: Some thoughts*
Show

Yes, Fiona Shaw was great, and the back story (well, actually the back story to the back story I guess) is actually one of the parts I'm really most excited to see more of.

Speaking of, I might have to rewatch, but Fiona Shaw's character seemed to indicate the crashed ship was Republic, but it looked like the crew was wearing CIS patches.  Did I miss something?

Star Wars finally has its' Arnold Rimmer.  I really liked that the villain so far is a bureaucratic putz who makes a much bigger deal of his teaspoon of power than he should.  Not even a minor functionary of the Empire, but a minor functionary of the Empire's subcontractor.  If there's something that feels truly unique about Andor it's the choice of adversary.  And yet he still feels more competent than most of the First Order's officer corps.

Yeah, the BBY5 thing at the beginning was odd.  Why not just open with "Five Years before the Battle of Yavin"?  It made more intuitive sense when used in the old WEG sourcebooks or on a timeline at the beginning of novels, but I actually got some confused texts from friends last night about that, so I don't think the meaning is as obvious as the producers might think.


Crossing fingers this doesn't have the wild quality dips as the last couple of outings, but put me as optimistic.




> Every show except BoBF introduced new planets, most of them predominantly on new planets. And BoBF didn't because they were kind of already stuck with him on Tatooine to start with.


Even BoBF introduced at least two new locations, the Glavis Ringworld and Luke's Academy.  However, I'm not really sure what difference it makes that Andor starts in a new location.  It's nice, and I'm glad they did, but if the town was located on an established planet like Bracca how different would the show have really been?

----------


## The Glyphstone

Wait, Star Wars has ringworlds now? That's a level of mega-engineering I didn't think the setting has ever featured, even in the EU - some very big ships and space stations, but not like that.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> Wait, Star Wars has ringworlds now? That's a level of mega-engineering I didn't think the setting has ever featured, even in the EU - some very big ships and space stations, but not like that.


Yes, it's supposedly a city sized space station around a "small" star.

Star Wars, where astrophysics goes for a nice lie down in the corner.  :Small Big Grin: 

Edit:  If you want to be charitable, I'm assuming the "star" at the center is an artificial fusion reactor of some kind.

----------


## The Glyphstone

I'm not sure what is worse, the idea that it's a city-sized space station around an artificial micro-star, or it's a full-sized ringworld around a normal star with one city surrounded by 3 million planets' worth of empty living space.


EDIT: I did some napkin math, and if the area of New York City was turned into a cylinder 1 mile high, it would only need a ring 782 miles in diameter. That's roughly 1/3 the size of the moon.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Dire_Flumph*
> *Spoiler: BB What Now?*
> Show
> 
> _Yeah, the BBY5 thing at the beginning was odd.
> 
> I don't think the meaning is as obvious as the producers might think._


I understood it instantly, and it never occurred to me that someone might not pick up on that.  But then Ive been seeing that notation in Star Wars media for decades now.  People less familiar with the material might be confused, although probably a minority of the viewership.

----------


## Peelee

> Wait, Star Wars has ringworlds now? That's a level of mega-engineering I didn't think the setting has ever featured, even in the EU - some very big ships and space stations, but not like that.


It was in the best episode of Book of Boba Fett, which turned out to be an episode of The Mandalorian.

I'm not actually kidding about that.



> Yes, it's supposedly a city sized space station around a "small" star.
> 
> Star Wars, where astrophysics goes for a nice lie down in the corner. 
> 
> Edit:  If you want to be charitable, I'm assuming the "star" at the center is an artificial fusion reactor of some kind.


I choose to believe whoever wrote that (I suspect Filoni) didnt think about it and it'll eventually be retconned into "orbiting a small star" because jeez....

----------


## GreenDragonPage

I really enjoyed the show :)

----------


## Sapphire Guard

> I'm loving the fresh new take on the Star Wars universe, devoid of any noticeable amount of Filoni's touch.


Compelling sales pitch.

----------


## Peelee

*Spoiler*
Show

I'm ecstatic that they've not only brought in the ISB but that it looks to be a major faction in this series. The time they're going for is really going to make them pop, it's a fantastic choice.

----------


## Palanan

New episode, thoroughly excellent.


*Spoiler*
Show

Engaging and increasingly tense storyline, nuanced portrayals, further humanization of Imperial officialsfor better and for worse.  Theres a complexity and depth here I dont think weve seen in any other Star Wars property.

Beautiful set design, each one perfectly appropriate for the characters involved.  Mon Mothmas residence was exceptionaland as for the lower levels, theyre really leaning into the Brutalist aspects of Star Wars design.  It manages to be beautiful and hideous all at once.

I wasnt expecting Faye Marsay, but she only adds to an already impressive list of quality talent.  Anton Lesser is perfect, and the petty backstabbing among career officers gives us a glimpse into how the Empire functionsor doesnt, as the case so often may be.

Theyre also making some real-world parallels which we cant discuss here, but which are spot-on, if just a touch heavy-handed.  But a ground-level look at the Empires policiesforced relocation, mass housing in company towns, destruction of natural and cultural heritagegives a deeper context for the growth of tiny rebel cells like the one were seeing here.  The heist planning could have been lighthearted, like an episode of Firefly, but here its deadly serious and expertly conveyed.  This isnt slam-bang action for the sake of a few mindless explosions; this is what a ground-level revolution in the Star Wars galaxy should really look like.

Superlative all around.

----------


## dancrilis

I was very dubious about the show but it is turning out to be fairly decent - will have to see if they can continue that.

*Spoiler: Minor Element from the 4th Episode*
Show


The mention of the Rakata caught me by surprise - wonder if that is world building for some upcoming show (or film), a Revan show/film might be interesting (or bad) as might a show about the initial foundation of the Republic/Jedi/Sith etc.

----------


## Peelee

> I was very dubious about the show but it is turning out to be fairly decent


I think this is the big refrain from the masses. It has no reason to be as good as it is. I was completely apathetic to it when they announced it but I'm pretty damned invested in it at this point.

----------


## The Glyphstone

As someone who hasnt watched any Disney SW material except the sequel trilogy and Rogue One, that's also my external reaction. They picked the blandest, most boring member of the Rogue One crew besides the heroine, made a show about his backstory, and it's apparently top-notch storytelling?

----------


## dancrilis

> As someone who hasnt watched any Disney SW material except the sequel trilogy and Rogue One, that's also my external reaction. They picked the blandest, most boring member of the Rogue One crew besides the heroine, made a show about his backstory, and it's apparently top-notch storytelling?


Personal opinion - the guy himself is still fairly bland and boring, but the world building is what is making it good.

Essentially it is looking at some elements of Star Wars which could be considered somewhat overlooked (at least in film or show) and expanding on it in a decent manner - namely how does the Empire actually function as a government.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *The Glyphstone*
> _They picked the blandest, most boring member of the Rogue One crew besides the heroine, made a show about his backstory, and it's apparently top-notch storytelling?_


Yes.  And no.

The show isnt just about Andors backstory, but about a number of players during that periodsome of whom we already know, others who are completely new.  Its developing into an ensemble with multiple storylines, all braided together with a sophisticated touch.

The visuals are superb in themselveseven sets which are only seen for a few seconds have been carefully designed to fit a particular aesthetic.  The core Star Wars look is here, but expanded and ramified, as well as some new elements which work perfectly in scene.

Acting ranges from good to outstanding, often in an understated sort of way.  Characters are presented with considerable emotional depth; these arent just archetypes of heroes and villains, but real people with hard complexities.  The storyline is taking its time, but this episode spun up some tension by the end, and Im really looking forward to where it goes from here.

----------


## PontificatusRex

I'm surprised no one has brought up what I think is the show's defining characteristic - it's a John LeCarre-style espionage story, the first one set in the SWU. The slow build up, the melancholy mood and dreary tone to most of the visuals, mystery as to what's really happening and why, a protagonist already seeped in deception and betrayal and he hasn't even become an official spy yet.

In another forum I described it as "Star Wars for people who think Alec Guinness's best role was George Smiley".

I've really enjoyed it, looking forward to seeing #4.

----------


## Peelee

> As someone who hasnt watched any Disney SW material except the sequel trilogy and Rogue One, that's also my external reaction. They picked the blandest, most boring member of the Rogue One crew besides the heroine, made a show about his backstory, and it's apparently top-notch storytelling?





> Personal opinion - the guy himself is still fairly bland and boring, but the world building is what is making it good.
> 
> Essentially it is looking at some elements of Star Wars which could be considered somewhat overlooked (at least in film or show) and expanding on it in a decent manner - namely how does the Empire actually function as a government.





> Yes.  And no.
> 
> The show isnt just about Andors backstory, but about a number of players during that periodsome of whom we already know, others who are completely new.  Its developing into an ensemble with multiple storylines, all braided together with a sophisticated touch.
> 
> The visuals are superb in themselveseven sets which are only seen for a few seconds have been carefully designed to fit a particular aesthetic.  The core Star Wars look is here, but expanded and ramified, as well as some new elements which work perfectly in scene.
> 
> Acting ranges from good to outstanding, often in an understated sort of way.  Characters are presented with considerable emotional depth; these arent just archetypes of heroes and villains, but real people with hard complexities.  The storyline is taking its time, but this episode spun up some tension by the end, and Im really looking forward to where it goes from here.


Glyphstone, everything they said is right, but also an aspect of it that I'm loving is how low-key everything is. One thing I hate in cinematic universes is constant escalation of the threat level. There's a danger to the city, there's a danger to the world, there's a danger to the universe, the same thing with just a bigger and bigger scope kind of bores me. And Andor is avoiding that really well. Its low stakes, but it's important to the people involved, and that's all that really needs to be the case. There's no Death Star or reborn Emperor. If they fail then not much in the galaxy changes, they'll just be dead. The stakes are very personal, and I tend to get invested in that much more readily than expansive, epic, galactic threats. It's a very grounded story for the SW universe, which is something I've wanted for a long time. The Mandalorian did a good job delivering that and Andor goes even further in that direction.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> *Spoiler: Minor Element from the 4th Episode*
> Show
> 
> 
> The mention of the Rakata caught me by surprise - wonder if that is world building for some upcoming show (or film), a Revan show/film might be interesting (or bad) as might a show about the initial foundation of the Republic/Jedi/Sith etc.


*Spoiler*
Show

I think it's most likely just that the writer was a KotOR fan, that's how a lot of old EU material keeps slipping in.  I wouldn't read into it more than that, focus seems more on the few centuries earlier High Republic.  There's just the KotOR remake, but that looks to be in purgatory for the time being.


Not much else to add.  Quality still remains solid, no real knocks against it.  I'm becoming more impressed at the level of confidence in the story and characters by the filmmakers, there really hasn't been the sort of extraneous action scene for it's own sake you expect in a show like this.

----------


## Peelee

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I think it's most likely just that the writer was a KotOR fan, that's how a lot of old EU material keeps slipping in.


Leland Chee sighs at this.

----------


## The Glyphstone

Assuming he's not still weeping softly into his glass of hard liquor.

----------


## Peelee

So the scuttlebutt I'm hearing is that the show was designed to have 3-episode arcs. I'm kind of sad they're not releasing them in blocks of 3 like they did with the first week, because that worked really well. Then again, that may be me just loving the show and wanting to go ahead and binge it all.

Again, I love how they do so much with very little. No need to throw more ships and troops at the wall, you get a feel for how menacing and powerful the Empire can be with a single TIE fighter.

----------


## Palanan

Another outstanding episode, smoothly edging up the tension and leaving me wishing I could alter time and speed up the harvest, or at least jump immediately to next Wednesday morning.


*Spoiler: Humanizing & Otherwise*
Show

Further humanization of our two anti-protagonists, especially the ISB career officer, who showed something I dont think weve ever seen beforea friendly working relationship between Imperial officers, with touches of real empathy for each other.  Its an echo of humanity where we least expect it, in the heart of the Empires security service, though well have to see if its only a convenient mirage.

And at this point its hard not to feel real sympathy for Syril, back in the little room where he grew up with an acid-tongued mother driving home his faults and failures.  Looking forward to meeting his uncle.

Solid character development on the heist team, just enough of their personalities and relationships and histories.  Of course the young idealist is a moral philosopherand it was a nice touch that Andor, for a brief moment, seemed to be drawn into the discourse.  Turning the animals loose was another nice touch, likely Cintas idea.

The show is extremely effective at showing the power and menace of a single TIE fighter against ordinary civilians, the sort of people who dont have beskar and jetpacks to rely on, much less lightsabers and a mystical energy field.  The TIE pilots low pass is another humanizing touchunfortunately in the other direction, the classic a****** fighter jock who enjoys blasting local civilians with jetwash right on the deck.  

As for Mon Mothmas troubled domestic life, I wouldve thought shed be better at dealing with a snotty teenager, but perhaps that was the pointthat for all her leadership talents, shes at a loss with her own family.  Those scenes may have been the least-strong of this episode, but they did provide an essential contrast between the damp, gritty Aldhani highlands and the pristine, almost sterile environment of Mon Mothmas apartments.


*Spoiler: Agents of E.M.P.I.R.E.*
Show

And did anyone recognize Nick Blood, aka Hunter from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.?

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> Another outstanding episode, smoothly edging up the tension and leaving me wishing I could alter time and speed up the harvest, or at least jump immediately to next Wednesday morning.


The show started in a good place and has only gotten better after leaving Ferrix.  For one though I really prefer the pace most non-Netflix streamers keep to with the weekly releases.  I like having the time to digest an episode rather than binging.

*Spoiler: For Andor, Episode 5*
Show




> And at this point its hard not to feel real sympathy for Syril, back in the little room where he grew up with an acid-tongued mother driving home his faults and failures.  Looking forward to meeting his uncle.


I like the character quite a bit, and he's been a good choice for an antagonist, but I really feel little sympathy for him.  He still comes across to me as the sort of petty little man who will get others killed with his ineptitude to justify his sense of self worth and his upbringing doesn't excuse that.  I've not seen much of anything I'd consider remorse or self-examination for his little expedition going sideways and I think I'd need to see some sign of that first.  But I'm very curious to see where his story's going and who his uncle is.




> As for Mon Mothmas troubled domestic life, I wouldve thought shed be better at dealing with a snotty teenager, but perhaps that was the pointthat for all her leadership talents, shes at a loss with her own family.  Those scenes may have been the least-strong of this episode, but they did provide an essential contrast between the damp, gritty Aldhani highlands and the pristine, almost sterile environment of Mon Mothmas apartments.


Sort of like Aang in Legend of Korra, I like the humanizing detail that a great leader can also be a less than great parent.  I didn't really catch on to the extent that she has to hide her involvement in anti-Empire activities from her family until this episode though and it makes sense that her daughter would pick up on the facade her home life is because of it.  It did strike me that for all that this character has appeared in quite a few Star Wars productions since Return of the Jedi, and yet this seems like the first real attempt at giving her much of a character to flesh out (I don't even recall the old EU bothering to take a stab at it).  For a role that originated on Revenge of the Sith's cutting room floor, I'm glad Genevieve O'Reilly has hung in there and finally has more to work with.

- For a Star Wars production, Andor has been oddly aversive to showing much of anything in the way of aliens (or even droids outside of B2EMO).  So much so that a goat with a few extra horns seemed oddly out of place.

- I think I could go through scenes in Luthen's antiquities store frame by frame to drink it all in.  Someone had a lot of fun filling in that space with some great detail.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Dire_Flumph*
> _I like having the time to digest an episode rather than binging._


Overall I agree, but the ending of this weeks episode left me on the edge of my seat wanting more.

*Spoiler*
Show




> Originally Posted by *Dire_Flumph*
> _I like the character quite a bit, and he's been a good choice for an antagonist, but I really feel little sympathy for him._


Hes tried to do what he believes is right and walked into a fiasco through no real fault of his own, other than inexperience.  He has character flaws in abundance, but then so does the eponymous hero of the show.  

As for self-examination, hes too much of a true believer to question the rightness of his approach.  It seems pretty clear hes going to try to freelance apprehending Andor to vindicate himself, so the question is what hell do when that goes awry.  He may vindicate himself in some other way beyond his own ambitions.  Definitely an interesting character, and thoroughly human, baggage first and foremost.




> Originally Posted by *Dire_Flumph*
> _For a role that originated on Revenge of the Sith's cutting room floor._


A little confused by this line.  Mon Mothma first appeared in Return of the Jedi in 1983.




> Originally Posted by *Dire_Flumph*
> _For a Star Wars production, Andor has been oddly aversive to showing much of anything in the way of aliens (or even droids outside of B2EMO). So much so that a goat with a few extra horns seemed oddly out of place._


There have been quite a few aliens in the background, including several which were direct callbacks to prior theatrical releases.  But yes, no aliens among the main cast.  Presumably they want to focus on the nuances of human emotion without having to divert time to develop an alien character.

Id also noticed the absence of droids, especially in Mon Mothmas home, where you would expect servitor droids to be present in the background.  Its an interesting character choice, especially in the Star Wars galaxy.




> Originally Posted by *Dire_Flumph*
> _I think I could go through scenes in Luthen's antiquities store frame by frame to drink it all in. Someone had a lot of fun filling in that space with some great detail._


Oh, yeah.  It reminds me of the hundreds of hand-labeled vials in Dumbledores pensieve case.

And Im pretty sure I saw something that _looked_ like a Sith holocron, though slightly larger, sitting on an upper shelf.  I have a feeling they're teasing us with that.  But I would pay real money to be able to browse through that set.

----------


## Peelee

> The show started in a good place and has only gotten better after leaving Ferrix.  For one though I really prefer the pace most non-Netflix streamers keep to with the weekly releases.  I like having the time to digest an episode rather than binging.


I tend to agree, especially since it helps foster discussion among the community which can be really fun, but if they're delineating the story in 3-episode arcs, then being able to have those released at the same time would be nice. It worked great for the first 3, giving effectively a movie-length story while still leaving more for the next week. 



> *Spoiler: For Andor, Episode 5*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> I like the character quite a bit, and he's been a good choice for an antagonist, but I really feel little sympathy for him.  He still comes across to me as the sort of petty little man who will get others killed with his ineptitude to justify his sense of self worth and his upbringing doesn't excuse that.


I actually disagree. 
*Spoiler: Syril*
Show

I loved the scene with him and his supervisor, because it spoke volumes. The supervisor was making the pragmatically correct choice - the deaths did start as an accident that went to far to stop, it was due to the corruption of those killed, it was just an ugly can of worms that he didn't think needed opening. 

But damn all that. Sure, it would have been an embarrassment to the CSA, but so ****ing what? Confront the problem head on and resolve it. Your security force is corrupt and two members got killed? Don't sweep it under the rug, find out the truth, prosecute the person who did it if needed, and root out the corruption. 

Syril is full of faults. He's self-important to the point of modifying his uniform to make himself look better to others, and he has no charisma or leadership skills, but at least he had a sense of justice. He didn't want to keep pressing for his career or this self-importance or to look better. He wanted to keep pressing because it was the right thing to do. And it was.

Let justice be done though the heavens fall.


ETA:
*Spoiler*
Show

Also, his "uncle" is totally going to be more of a family friend with the "uncle" honorific and also a criminal of some sort. Calling it now.

----------


## dancrilis

> *Spoiler: Syril*
> Show
> 
> I loved the scene with him and his supervisor, because it spoke volumes. The supervisor was making the pragmatically correct choice - the deaths did start as an accident that went to far to stop, it was due to the corruption of those killed, it was just an ugly can of worms that he didn't think needed opening.


*Spoiler*
Show


I would hope we see more of that supervisor - my favourite character in the show despite (or because of) limited screen time.

Life would have been better for everyone if Syril had just listened to him - and I suspect that Syril is blaming Andor for what happened rather then himself which if I am correct will lead to Syril being a 'never my fault' antagonist.

----------


## Peelee

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> I would hope we see more of that supervisor - my favourite character in the show despite (or because of) limited screen time.
> 
> Life would have been better for everyone if Syril had just listened to him - and I suspect that Syril is blaming Andor for what happened rather then himself which if I am correct will lead to Syril being a 'never my fault' antagonist.


*Spoiler*
Show

I wholeheartedly agree. I loved the supervisor. He knew how to play the game, and sweeping it under the rug was the right choice, practically and politically. But as far as Justice goes, it was the wrong choice, and Syril was in the right, even disobeying direct orders as he did.

Both are wonderful characters and I want more of that. But I'm afraid that's the last we'll see of him, sadly.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

*Spoiler: For Andor, Episode 5*
Show




> A little confused by this line.  Mon Mothma first appeared in Return of the Jedi in 1983.


True, as I mentioned.  But Genevieve O'Reilly was originally cast in the role for Revenge of the Sith and she has subsequently played the character in Rogue One, Rebels and Andor.  But her Revenge of the Sith scenes were pared down to almost nothing and I don't even recall that any of her speaking lines survived to the final cut.  Her Rogue One role was little more than background character continuity and she didn't have much more to do in Rebels.  It took until now for anyone to give her much of anything to do with the part.  Although if Lucas was still at the helm I'm sure she'd have been spliced into Return of the Jedi by now as well.




> And Im pretty sure I saw something that _looked_ like a Sith holocron, though slightly larger, sitting on an upper shelf.  I have a feeling they're teasing us with that.  But I would pay real money to be able to browse through that set.


A friend pointed out to me today the Sankara Stones are up there.  Missed that one.




> Syril is full of faults. He's self-important to the point of modifying his uniform to make himself look better to others, and he has no charisma or leadership skills, but at least he had a sense of justice. He didn't want to keep pressing for his career or this self-importance or to look better. He wanted to keep pressing because it was the right thing to do. And it was.


And I suppose that is where my read on the character differs.  I don't really see him as interested in justice, but reacting to an affront to authority.  The corruption doesn't matter to him, that the officers were shaking down visitors doesn't matter to him, what matters to him is that someone took out two of *Us*.  He's a man who craves power and respect, he gains that through the institution he serves, thus an affront to that institution is what moves him, because he sees that as affront to him.

I could be wrong though, we have yet to really dig into who Syril is and I'm curious to see where the character goes.   Just my read on his actions to date.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Dire_Flumph*
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> _But her Revenge of the Sith scenes were pared down to almost nothing and I don't even recall that any of her speaking lines survived to the final cut._


*Spoiler*
Show

A couple of her scenes were included as special deleted scenes, but I dont think she appeared in the theatrical release.  I can understand whythey would have distracted from the emotional trajectory built up by the end of the movie.  





> Originally Posted by *Dire_Flumph*
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> _A friend pointed out to me today the Sankara Stones are up there._


*Spoiler: Andor's Got Big Stones*
Show

No idea what those were, had to look them up.  Ive only seen that movie once, on video after it came out, so Id long since forgotten them.  Hella in-joke to be sure.

Ahh, to be a professional nerd who writes articles about Easter eggs in streaming Star Wars shows.  Nice work if you can get it.

----------


## Peelee

> *Spoiler: For Andor, Episode 5*
> Show
> 
> 
> And I suppose that is where my read on the character differs.  I don't really see him as interested in justice, but reacting to an affront to authority.  The corruption doesn't matter to him, that the officers were shaking down visitors doesn't matter to him, what matters to him is that someone took out two of *Us*.  He's a man who craves power and respect, he gains that through the institution he serves, thus an affront to that institution is what moves him, because he sees that as affront to him.
> 
> I could be wrong though, we have yet to really dig into who Syril is and I'm curious to see where the character goes.   Just my read on his actions to date.


*Spoiler: justice vs authority*
Show

Well, he can't very well do anything about their actions. He could try to root out other corruption, sure, but ostensible murders would take precedence.

That said, I do see your argument and it definitely has merit. That was just how I read the situation, and I won't lie, some of my own bias may have snuck in. I am a very big fan of justice being done and damn the consequences.

----------


## Palanan

*Spoiler: Two Views of Syril*
Show

Part of the art of the show is leaving room for both these interpretations.

I personally come down on the side of Syril being genuinely concerned with justice, as part of his worldview and devotion to his callingbut if hes able to advance himself while he does so, well, all for the better.  Petty careerism can coexist with higher principles.

At least for a while, so when the decision point comes well see if his principles are solid or just a flimsy rationale.  Either way hes superbly compelling for a secondary character.

----------


## dancrilis

> *Spoiler: For Andor, Episode 5*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> And I suppose that is where my read on the character differs. I don't really see him as interested in justice, but reacting to an affront to authority. The corruption doesn't matter to him, that the officers were shaking down visitors doesn't matter to him, what matters to him is that someone took out two of *Us*. *He's a man who craves power and respect, he gains that through the institution he serves*, thus an affront to that institution is what moves him, because he sees that as affront to him.


*Spoiler: Disagree with the bolded*
Show


I see where you are coming from but I disagree - his boss ordered him to not do anything, even if he got his guy there was nobody above him who cared about what were effectively random unimportant killings. 
Win or lose he stood to gain no authority and lose all of it from his actions.

----------


## Peelee

> *Spoiler: Disagree with the bolded*
> Show
> 
> 
> I see where you are coming from but I disagree - his boss ordered him to not do anything, even if he got his guy there was nobody above him who cared about what were effectively random unimportant killings. 
> Win or lose he stood to gain no authority and lose all of it from his actions.


*Spoiler: Totally disagree*
Show

They weren't random unimportant killings, they were the killings of two Pre-Mor security men. Just because his direct supervisor swept it under the rug doesn't mean it stays there if Syril catches the murderer. It could go either way at that point - everyone reports to someone, and just because his boss didn't want that can of worms doesn't mean his boss's boss wouldn't want Andor's head on a platter if it was presented.

----------


## dancrilis

> *Spoiler: Totally disagree*
> Show
> 
> They weren't random unimportant killings, they were the killings of two Pre-Mor security men. Just because his direct supervisor swept it under the rug doesn't mean it stays there if Syril catches the murderer. It could go either way at that point - everyone reports to someone, and just because his boss didn't want that can of worms doesn't mean his boss's boss wouldn't want Andor's head on a platter if it was presented.


*Spoiler*
Show


Possibly but as his boss's boss is either The Empire who seem to place a value on stability over justice or some senior Pre-Mor staff and likely to accept the supervisors points on the dangers of an investigation given some of the anomalies - I think it is fair to say that Syril was not modivated by a desire for power (he might have wanted the respect of those below I will grant).

----------


## Mechalich

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> Possibly but as his boss's boss is either The Empire who seem to place a value on stability over justice or some senior Pre-Mor staff and likely to accept the supervisors points on the dangers of an investigation given some of the anomalies - I think it is fair to say that Syril was not modivated by a desire for power (he might have wanted the respect of those below I will grant).


*Spoiler*
Show

Syril appears mostly motivated by a desire to look good and achieve. He's fully aware of the massive corruption within Pre-Mor and finds the death of two burying the murder of two fellow officers to be more than he can take. So he defies orders, takes matters into his own hands, and tries to bring in Cassian to prove a point knowing the investigation will lay bare corruption. Among other things, to find Cassian he brought in the prostitute lady for an official interview, which puts the existence of an illegal brothel and the officer's inflated incomes into the record. He probably thinks, out of a lack of foresight, that because he personally is not corrupt that either the executives within Pre-Mor or the Empire will reward him for his dedication to duty in a classic case of go-getter naivete. Admittedly, had he succeeded it is possible he would have been kept on as a 'local liaison' or offered a transfer to the Empire as a reward after they came in an rooted out the sinecure Pre-Mor had established, which the ISB officer makes clear the Empire was looking for basically any excuse to do anyway. The operation blowing up in his face is a tragedy for him personally, but it doesn't change the Empire's likely response in any significant way aside from accelerating the timeline. 

He displays a combination of naivete and lack of foresight that's actually fairly common in youthful officers who think they can climb the ladder through excellence and dedication to duty, which rarely works in any bureaucracy, never mind one that is systemically corrupt from top to bottom. The intriguing question, to me, is how he managed to reach the apparently relatively high rank of deputy Inspector - he has sufficient authority to authorize what is effectively a SWAT operation entirely on his own - without having that beaten out of him. I suspect his Coruscant origin matters, probably coupled to impressive educational credentials and maybe a really high score on some kind of departmental aptitude test (some bureaucracies sort promotion potential that way).

----------


## PontificatusRex

I am really enjoying this series, easily one of the best additions to the SWU. 

I don't think its spoilerific to say that one of the things I'm finding particularly interesting is seeing how the Empire is consolidating it's control. The scene on Ferrix where they point out the new Imperial headquarters is a great snapshot of that - all of sudden the planet that has been largely independent and administered 3rd-hand by a security company that wasn't even based on the planet is now permanently occupied by Imperial forces, and that's probably repeating throughout the galaxy. Totalitarianism isn't something that gets instantly imposed, it creeps in with the population believing "It's not that bad", and then it's gets a little worse, and a little worse - and then it's too late. (I'm also reading the Expanse series right now and seeing the parallel with Laconia.)

Great commentary on Syril by everyone, looking forward to seeing where it goes. My guess is that he's going to turn, but it could go anywhere.

Regarding Mon Mothma:

*Spoiler: Family stuff*
Show

I don't see her as a bad parent or bad at family, I see that she's got a ****ty partner and a spoiled kid who takes after the dad. I think we're going to see her forced to choose between the Rebellion and her family, but it will be the family forcing the choice, not her or unavoidable circumstances.

----------


## Peelee

At this point I just feel like a broken record. Newest episode is amazing, the show so far has done no wrong, the humanization of the villains is incredibly effective, etc etc.

----------


## Palanan

Another outstanding episode, possibly the best yet.  


*Spoiler*
Show

Superb buildup of tension, from within the arc and throughout the episode.  With all good heist stories theres always the tension of how exactly its going to go to pieces and how theyll pull it off regardless.  At one moment I genuinely thought that Vel would lose her nerve and Cassian would have to take over; that was nicely built up to and nicely played.

They telegraphed a little too strongly that Taramyn wouldnt make it out, and you cant help rooting for the poor kid.  The one part I found slightly contrived was the commandant keeling over _just_ as Corporal Kimzis squad interrupted the heist.  Its possible the commandant faked that, but theres no real indication in the episode, and the timing seems a little too convenient.

The Eye itself was absolutely spectacular, and another one of this shows small humanizing moments was to demonstrate that during the height of the Eye, some of the Imperial personnel were just as lost in wonder and pure awe as the Aldhani themselves.  Notably this didn't extend to the commandant and his command staff, but even the commandantcallous, arrogant and self-importantis in part doing what he does for the good of his family.

As for Skeen, he certainly knew how to play his partnersespecially the little speech about Taramyn being what they were fighting for, which seems perfectly pitched to steer them towards the doctors place and a better opportunity for taking the haul.  Vel seems to have been completely taken in; a hard lesson in leadership in a rebellion.  This arc is fairly self-contained, but even so Im hoping well see her again during another op, stonier but more certain of herself.

No idea where the series is going from here, but so far its been breathtakingly good.  I can only wait to see where we go next.

----------


## dancrilis

A fine episode - would have been a fine end of season, looked it up afterwards and am somewhat surprised that they are continuing it next week rather then having a break.




> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> As for Skeen, he certainly knew how to play his partnersespecially the little speech about Taramyn being what they were fighting for, which seems perfectly pitched to steer them towards the doctors place and a better opportunity for taking the haul.  Vel seems to have been completely taken in; a hard lesson in leadership in a rebellion.


*Spoiler*
Show


I am less sure - I am half convinced that he was just testing 'Clem' to see if he might have a role in the rebellion or if he was pure mercenary about it and Andor just didn't see through the bluff and acted as if the treachery was real (we will probably never know).

----------


## Peelee

> A fine episode - would have been a fine end of season, looked it up afterwards and am somewhat surprised that they are continuing it next week rather then having a break.
> 
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> I am less sure - I am half convinced that he was just testing 'Clem' to see if he might have a role in the rebellion or if he was pure mercenary about it and Andor just didn't see through the bluff and acted as if the treachery was real (we will probably never know).


There's 12 episodes total, and have only have 4 air dates so far. Taking a break now would be odd and most likely incredibly unpopular.

*Spoiler*
Show

No way was that a test. There's nothing indicating it was and everything indicating it was. Not to mention how bad it would be as a test - if he declined and it was a test, nothing changes. This is opposed to someone likely dying if he agreed - either it was a test and he'd probably be shot for being untrustworthy, or it wasn't a test and he would almost certainly have planned to take the whole thing to start with and could have shot them dead anyway instead of just taking half.

----------


## dancrilis

> There's 12 episodes total, and have only have 4 air dates so far. Taking a break now would be odd and most likely incredibly unpopular.


I haven't been following the amount of episodes due, this kindof felt 'end of season' for me a small well done set, but they might be going for three episode arcs tied together - in which case hopefully the upcoming arcs are as good (felt this arc was better then the opening arc).




> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> No way was that a test. There's nothing indicating it was and everything indicating it was. Not to mention how ridiculous it would be as a test - if he declined and it was a test, nothing changes. This is opposed to him someone likely dying if he agreed - either it was a test and he'd probably be shot for being untrustworthy, or it wasn't a test and he would almost certainly have planned to take the whole thing to start with and could have shot them dead anyway instead of just taking half.


*Spoiler*
Show


I disagree.

If he turned it down then no harm - you now know he is not purely in it for maximum profit.
If he accepted you know he isn't trustworthy so can't take him to whatever your drop off point is or introduce him to anyone important.

Between trust and test I could see why someone would do a test - now if it was a test it was a bad one because there was no control (you would want someone with a gun watching him in case he reacts poorly).

I also find it suspect that Skeen who has been working with the rebellion for months, was presumedly somewhat vetted before that for the mission and who Vel and the others trust just happened to know an uninhabited moon which can support them while they figure out what to do.

I think it makes it a better story to have it be an ill conceived test of character gone wrong - but I can see the alternative of a greed just getting to a guy when he has the credits almost right in front of him and a guy who has no reason to turn them down who he can ask for help.

Also think Andor might be a lot more murder happy then most people - Skeen had no way to transport the credits - he could have perhaps just said 'no' test or no test.

----------


## Peelee

> I haven't been following the amount of episodes due, this kindof felt 'end of season' for me a small well done set, but they might be going for three episode arcs tied together - in which case hopefully the upcoming arcs are as good (felt this arc was better then the opening arc).
> 
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> I disagree.
> ...


*Spoiler*
Show

He's a mercenary taking on a smaller amount of money for stealing a larger amount of money. You already know he's not in it for maximum profit when he doesn't steal it to start with. And that's putting aside that Skeen isn't the leader and isn't in charge of doing such things, and that Skeen was the one who wanted to divert away from the initial rendezvous plan despite that Nsmik was dying, per the actual leader and per what we see happened even with a doctor's intervention. 

Sure, making it a test _could_ be interesting, but you yourself don't think well revisit whether it was or not which makes any interest in it purely in the realm of baseless hypithesizing and ignoring what we know - that Skeen made the offer, had a plan, and performed actions in furtherence of that plan. There's no reason to disbelieve him except for cheap, manufactured, and most importantly imaginary drama.


Now, if instead you take it at face value that it was not a test and Skeen really did want to rip them off, we have a character holding up a mirror to Cassia - a loner who doesn't want to be part of something bigger and is only doing it for the money. And Cassian sees this and rejects it. _That_ is both interesting and actually happening without baseless hypithesizing.

----------


## dancrilis

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> He's a mercenary taking on a smaller amount of money for stealing a larger amount of money. You already know he's not in it for maximum profit when he doesn't steal it to start with. And that's putting aside that Skeen isn't the leader and isn't in charge of doing such things, and that Skeen was the one who wanted to divert away from the initial rendezvous plan despite that Nsmik was dying, per the actual leader and per what we see happened even with a doctor's intervention. 
> 
> Sure, making it a test _could_ be interesting, but you yourself don't think well revisit whether it was or not which makes any interest in it purely in the realm of baseless hypithesizing and ignoring what we know - that Skeen made the offer, had a plan, and performed actions in furtherence of that plan. There's no reason to disbelieve him except for cheap, manufactured, and most importantly imaginary drama.
> 
> 
> Now, if instead you take it at face value that it was not a test and Skeen really did want to rip them off, we have a character holding up a mirror to Cassia - a loner who doesn't want to be part of something bigger and is only doing it for the money. And Cassian sees this and rejects it. _That_ is both interesting and actually happening without baseless hypithesizing.


*Spoiler*
Show


That is all fine.

I just think it makes less sense in the wider scheme of thing.

I could see it as Skeen having a moment of greed sure, but even with that I don't think he calculated for nearly his entire team to get killed which was the only real way that his plan could work - and I think he was genuine about trying to use the on-call doctor to try and save the guy rather then a crafty move, as he could have pulled that move in space instead.
There was no talk from him about 'no witnesses' to avoid making enemies etc, had he proposed it to Vel she might have talked him around.
So if it wasn't a test I think it was likely a man hitting his breaking point after a number of people he worked with and trained with for months died in front of him right as a bucket of cash showed up in front of him - so he was mulling a 'lets run' option.

Andor per the movie and per this show is quick to kill people including defenceless people and even people (from the movie) who are on his side - this is a trait that the other members of the group didn't seem to really have, the only killing they did was effectively in self defence.

----------


## Peelee

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> That is all fine.
> 
> I just think it makes less sense in the wider scheme of thing.
> 
> I could see it as Skeen having a moment of greed sure, but even with that I don't think he calculated for nearly his entire team to get killed which was the only real way that his plan could work - and I think he was genuine about trying to use the on-call doctor to try and save the guy rather then a crafty move, as he could have pulled that move in space instead.
> ...


*Spoiler*
Show

It doesn't make less sense, you just don't know to what extent he had planned it. But he admits to making things up, he is the instigator to go to a contingency planet where he is left alone with Cassian, and he offers a plan to steal the money.

Making it a "test" is hackneyed and trite, and serves no purpose in the story as it continued. With the events that happened afterwards, it would be meaningless if it was a test.

Assuming it was a test despite no indication it was adds absolutely nothing narratively. Accepting the already-offered premise that it was genuine adds characterization and foreshadowing Andor's eventual commitment to the Rebellion.

But hey, if you still want to believe it was a test despite all that, don't let me stop you.

----------


## dancrilis

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> It doesn't make less sense, you just don't know to what extent he had planned it. But he admits to making things up, he is the instigator to go to a contingency planet where he is left alone with Cassian, and he offers a plan to steal the money.
> 
> Making it a "test" is hackneyed and trite, and serves no purpose in the story as it continued. With the events that happened afterwards, it would be meaningless if it was a test.
> 
> Assuming it was a test despite no indication it was adds absolutely nothing narratively. Accepting the already-offered premise that it was genuine adds characterization and foreshadowing Andor's eventual commitment to the Rebellion.
> 
> But hey, if you still want to believe it was a test despite all that, don't let me stop you.


*Spoiler*
Show


Saying I am half convinced of something is not the same as saying I fully believe it or am assuming it.

I tend to go with a few ideas in order of what I think make most sense to me with what has been delivered.
One - man in a difficult situation after a period of trouble where people he knew died and discusses a bad plan that occured to him and dies because he was speaking to the wrong guy.
Two - it was a test of the person he was speaking with.
Three - he is a cunning mastermind that infiltrated a secret operation to steal some loot with the intention of personally stealing the loot from the thieves (and such a mastermind that he needed a pilot he didn't know was going to be with them to help him complete it) only to fall into the all to common mistake of blabbing about his masterplan at the wrong moment.

Perhaps given those options you would go 1, 3, 2 - or merge 1 and 3 or whatever.

----------


## ecarden

Excellent episode. I am tempted to wait and try to watch these in 3 episode chunks, as I do think that works better for me, but we'll see if my patience holds out.

*Spoiler*
Show

I don't think it was a test. If it was then there'd have been some contingency for exactly what ended up happening. 

I do think Cinta probably killed all the hostages before leaving, wonder if we'll hear more about that?

Did I miss what happened to Dorn? I saw Taramyn, Nemik and Skeen die, Vel, Cassian and Cinta got away, but I think I missed what happened to Dorn, somehow.

Did like the callback from 'they've gotten fat and lazy' to the commandant having a literal heart attack. 

Did like no hordes of storm troopers mowed down without casualties.

Continue to wonder what we'll see when they finally focus on Mon Mothma's family. That relationship has clearly gone to pot, but I wonder how it started out? I think her husband mentioned regimental friends a few episodes back? Maybe it collapsed under the weight of being on different sides of how to handle the Separatists? If this show wanted to do a bit of cleanup of the....simplistic politics of the Clone Wars cartoon, I would enjoy that, but we'll see.

----------


## Peelee

> Excellent episode. I am tempted to wait and try to watch these in 3 episode chunks, as I do think that works better for me, but we'll see if my patience holds out.


Yeah, I'm wishing they released them all in three episode chunks since it really looks like thats how they've structured the show but ain't non way I can make myself miss each episode as it comes out. Hell, I get up early so I can watch it before work, without ambient sunlight, before the kiddo wakes up. Same as I did with Mando.



> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Did like no hordes of storm troopers mowed down without casualties.


*Spoiler*
Show

I'm _really_ loving the no stormtroopers at all so far, because in fairly confident they will eventually be used as will be shown to be as devastating as theyre intended to be. And if not used at all, how powerful and menacing the Empire is even without their crack troops.

----------


## Mechalich

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Continue to wonder what we'll see when they finally focus on Mon Mothma's family. That relationship has clearly gone to pot, but I wonder how it started out? I think her husband mentioned regimental friends a few episodes back? Maybe it collapsed under the weight of being on different sides of how to handle the Separatists? If this show wanted to do a bit of cleanup of the....simplistic politics of the Clone Wars cartoon, I would enjoy that, but we'll see.


*Spoiler*
Show

We have some clues on this, notably due to the age of the daughter, Leida, being established in the databank as 13, meaning she was born in 18 BBY, probably not much more than a year or so after RotS. Additionally Mon Mothma appears several times in TCW with no indication that she was married. It was also established, in Disney canon, that she was briefly arrested following the Declaration of New Order but was released after professing her loyalty.

This suggests, to me, that she chose to get married very rapidly following the founding of the Empire to a known loyalist and military veteran to help defray charges of sedition and that she had a child very swiftly thereafter to insure continuity of the marriage. Now, I'm not saying she didn't like Perrin Fertha, a lot even, and had perhaps considered marrying him for some time. The Clone Wars is certainly reason enough to delay a courtship. Still, I think political motives probably pushed her towards matrimony pretty hard. Alternatively, it's possible that the push originated differently, and she got married intending to retire from politics or at least return to Chandrila (a much nicer place than Coruscant by every indication), but was pulled back into the struggle by her idealism.

----------


## Peelee

> Disney canon


We just call it "canon" now.  :Small Wink:

----------


## Joran

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> I do think Cinta probably killed all the hostages before leaving, wonder if we'll hear more about that?
> 
> Did I miss what happened to Dorn? I saw Taramyn, Nemik and Skeen die, Vel, Cassian and Cinta got away, but I think I missed what happened to Dorn, somehow.


*Spoiler: Gorn*
Show


Lt. Gorn got shot around 33:50 of the show in the initial shooting. It didn't show his face, it was really quick, but he's dead, Jim. (Find cover dude!)

Yeah, I was wondering what happened to the hostages. Seems a bit dark for them to kill unarmed civilians, but Cinta's family was slaughtered by stormtroopers, so I could see her getting revenge.



I made some poor life choices and caught up to episode 6 last night (binged eps 3-6 all in one sitting). One of the things I love about this show is that they're willing to take things slowly and just let the show breathe. There's a lot of room for characters to interact that is frequently not found in streaming; a lot of streaming shows feel like they're racing from plot point to plot point.

The 3 episode mini-arcs is a great decision, although I wish they would release them in 3 episode blocks like Netflix did with Arcane.

----------


## Palanan

New episode.  Solid introduction to the next arc, with some brilliant touches.  Takes the room to breathe that Joran mentioned, while still flowing naturally from the previous episode and advancing a number of character arcs.


*Spoiler*
Show

Like Joran and ecarden, I was wondering if Cinta had killed the hostages, including the commandants family, during the Aldhani heist.  It was expertly set up to lead the audience right to that conclusion.

That said, if shed done that it most likely wouldve been trumpeted on the news as an example of rebel barbarity, but all we heard was that over a hundred Aldhani had been taken into custody.  I think we were meant to wonder if Cinta had done itbut she and Vel and the others knew full well that it would have led to massive Imperial atrocities on Aldhani.  Until we see otherwise, Im assuming Cinta stunned them and no more.

As for this episode, Fiona Shaw stole the show as she always does.  For an episode coming after the action finale of the last arc, this still managed to keep everything moving and develop new tensions along the way.  The flashback to the actual Klem is strongly reminiscent of a real-world incident which we cant discuss here, but which only further grounds the show.

And speaking of dark, Luthans assistant giving the kill order to Vel was half-expected, but not in a good way, because its not what I want my Rebellion to look like.  For this reason I disliked many aspects of Rogue One, and while it makes sense for this show to move in the same direction, it still rubs me the wrong way.  Presumably Vel will make a different call.

On a better note, I was laughing in amazement and delight at the music that introduced us to Niamos, because it was brilliantly done and immediately obvious that we were in a resort setting, even before the camera angled back to show us the hulking hotels.  That scenario went hard dystopian very fast--and the show is also doing a superb job of building up the menace of the K2 units.  Presumably the next two episodes will cover Cassian's imprisonment and escape. 

And leave it to this show to turn a dry Imperial security meeting into a compact drama leading to even greater humanization of ISB personnel, including Partagaz himself.  Given Darth Vaders style of personnel management, I was a little surprised we didnt lose one or two attendees by the end of the meeting, but the show is more subtle than thatin itself a statement, perhaps, on the fundamental banality of bureaucratic tyrannies.

The show continues to be brilliant, nuanced, thoughtful, and emotionally intelligent in a way that no other Star Wars property has combined before.  Eagerly waiting for more.

----------


## Peelee

I really felt let down by this one.

*Spoiler: The major problem with it*
Show

How are they going to tease us with the Weights and Gauges department and then proceed to completely block us out of it?! 


*Spoiler: Separately, what I liked about it, if you can even say anything was likeable after that fiasco above*
Show

Ok, so putting aside for the moment how I'm absolutely fawning over the ISB plotlines, all throughout the Aldhani arc I was commenting on how they are doing so much with so little, giving us a sense of how omnipresent and oppressive the Empire is with as little as a single TIE fighter - the people on the ground may as well have sticks and stones for all the good they'd do against a space superiority fighter like that - this episode _really_ goes all in on it. Andor has killed people. One inadvertently, but one straight up murdered. He had stolen high-level secret Imperial military technology. He was involved in knocking over an Imperial base where at the very least a colonel was murdered, and 80,000,000 credits stolen. And he gets away with all of this, and what gets him finally caught? A corrupt cop and court system who don't even know who he is but trump up charges against him anyway because they could and who the hell is he to stop them?

And then let's go back to the ISB plotlines because this is everything the old EU promised us with the ISB and more. Super shady cloak and dagger spy agency with practically no oversight and cutthroat office culture? I've been waiting decades for something even remotely close to this and jeez is it firing on every goddamn cylinder it has and somehow even more that it doesn't.

----------


## ecarden

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Like Joran and ecarden, I was wondering if Cinta had killed the hostages, including the commandants family, during the Aldhani heist.  It was expertly set up to lead the audience right to that conclusion.
> 
> That said, if shed done that it most likely wouldve been trumpeted on the news as an example of rebel barbarity, but all we heard was that over a hundred Aldhani had been taken into custody.  I think we were meant to wonder if Cinta had done itbut she and Vel and the others knew full well that it would have led to massive Imperial atrocities on Aldhani.  Until we see otherwise, Im assuming Cinta stunned them and no more.


Really enjoyed it, but I think we may learn more about that at Cinta's reunion. It's hard to know if they'd want to broadcast such news. Yes, it makes their enemies look barbaric, but it also makes them look weak. Hard balance to strike. I'm guessing your right, but we'll see...

This episode really drove home some of the casual bureaucratic evil of the Empire and was a good reminder that for lots of folks the problem is the rebels, not the Empire, which is something that sort of comes back a lot later in the SW canon (which is one of several reasons Operation Cinder is a wildly crazy choice for the writers to have made, given they presumably knew 'imperial fanboys are going to be the villains of our upcoming SW trilogy). 

More broadly, it was nice to see a little internal conflict between Mon Mothma and Luthen, given their wildly different viewpoints, roles and experiences. I admit to being a bit more on Mon Mothma's side politically versus the accelerationist Luthen, but at the same time, I admit to confusion as to what she thought they were building towards? 

It was also real nice to see a bit of the 'real' Mon Mothma with an ally she can, hopefully, trust. I do wonder how her family stuff will work out. I also wonder how much her daughter and husband can sense she's hiding things from them and doesn't trust them. Though I really dislike the use of their daughter against her...such a hard problem and it shows some of the real problems of existing in such a violent and unstable society with any degree of influence or power. Though admittedly, folks like Cassian and Luthen may be less impressed by her awkward family dynamics than their 'people are shooting at us' problems.

ETA: Also, a bit confused by the references Mon Mothma made to various 'separatist' factions within the Imperial Senate? After the Clone Wars, hard to believe anyone would take that name on?

----------


## Peelee

More of the same today. That "same", of course, being excellence.
*Spoiler*
Show

I love how Syril is a true believer. I'd be surprised if he wasn't inducted into the ISB before show's end. Sure, he's too idealistic and not charismatic enough to be an effective leader, but he'd be a decent cog in the machine, and he'd enjoy that significantly more than the Bureau of Standards (though, to be fair, he's not in such a cushy assignment as Weights and Gauges, of course).

The prison is pretty great. I still can't tell if Andor is going to try for an escape or if there's going to be some sort of rescue/extraction planned. I would imagine an extraction, since Luthen still sees him as a loose end and the plan is to eliminate him, but given how he's already in imperial custody and seemingly was able to create a fake identity to stand up to enough scrutiny for the moment, they may decide he's valuable enough to try to turn into a permanent operative if they can, and kill him if they cannot. I'm leaning more towards this, though how they'd be able to trace him to Keef is another question entirely.

----------


## Maelstrom

Aagreed, these episodes just cannot come out often enough, but if that is the price to pay, "take my money!"...




> More of the same today. That "same", of course, being excellence.
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I love how Syril is a true believer. I'd be surprised if he wasn't inducted into the ISB before show's end. Sure, he's too idealistic and not charismatic enough to be an effective leader, but he'd be a decent cog in the machine, and he'd enjoy that significantly more than the Bureau of Standards (though, to be fair, he's not in such a cushy assignment as Weights and Gauges, of course).
> 
> The prison is pretty great. I still can't tell if Andor is going to try for an escape or if there's going to be some sort of rescue/extraction planned. I would imagine an extraction, since Luthen still sees him as a loose end and the plan is to eliminate him, but given how he's already in imperial custody and seemingly was able to create a fake identity to stand up to enough scrutiny for the moment, they may decide he's valuable enough to try to turn into a permanent operative if they can, and kill him if they cannot. I'm leaning more towards this, though how they'd be able to trace him to Keef is another question entirely.


*Spoiler: Episode 8*
Show

I was on the fence post about Syril, was not sure which way the writers would make him go, but honestly, I am glad they did not go the 'redemption' route, as I characterized him since the beginning as a 'dog with a bone' dry humping the imperial leg (can I say that here?  As long as I've been on the forum, I think referring to an annoying animal behaviour like that is OK? and honestly how I see this character.  Anyhoo...)  Still loving the ISB for who they are, though

As for the prison, I'd love to know what they are making and am sure it's helping the imperial war machine...does each floor/room/etc have a particular part they specialize in?  are the different factories where the final products are assembled, etc...  But the way this story is being told, they will not waste time on it as it is just part of the background and each stroke paints the entire, gorgeous picture without the need to zoom in and focus on what are, story-wise, needless details that would not add to the storyline.  But man, a prison without bars, but far more effective (somebody on the writing team was a student of Michel Foucault, ouf).  On another note, we're introduce to another character that we see later in Rogue 1:  Melshi ("Don't ever look at the number...Getting now out is just a dream")

I do like how, on Ferrix, they intimate (by way of the 'budget request meeting' earlier) that they managed to intercept and trace the transmission Bix made, and quickly acted on that intel.  Bix, not being superhuman, was not able to evade the pursuit (once again, not shown and with good effect) and we're shown part of the pageantry used in interrogation techniques before the first questions are even shown. 

EDIT: Oh yes, Saw Guererra, ever the anarchist.  Good to see that interaction as well.  Did not recognize the name Luthen dropped there (Anto Kreegyr) about the attack on Spellhaus.   This scene gives us even more insight to the unorganized and sometimes at odds of the various factions of the nascent rebellion (and some of them..separatists, neo-Republicans, 'Ghorman front', 'Human cultists'..hmm) , Oh, and X-Wings!  Really dirty, gritty X-Wings.  Once again, as window dressing

Just excellent TV and the Star Wars I want to see!

----------


## Peelee

_That_ is how you do fan service!
*Spoiler*
Show

The door closing on Bix being tortured, the camera panning down to the feet of a random Imperial officer walking down the hall, then panning up to show him waking away.
[chef's kiss]

----------


## Maelstrom

Just out of curiosity, are we only supposed to negatively discuss Films/Series here on GITP, or is it really only three or 4 of us watching this series?  This is an honest question, not asking people to engage in arguments over niggly details, but I really am curious as to others are watching and have absolutely nothing to say/add/discuss (and we should just let this thread drop) or if others just are not watching (and then I may ask 'why not?')

----------


## Bunny Commando

> Just out of curiosity, are we only supposed to negatively discuss Films/Series here on GITP, or is it really only three or 4 of us watching this series?  This is an honest question, not asking people to engage in arguments over niggly details, but I really am curious as to others are watching and have absolutely nothing to say/add/discuss (and we should just let this thread drop) or if others just are not watching (and then I may ask 'why not?')


I am watching Andor, but every time I wonder what I could write about it.
"Competent writing, good acting, interesting characters, fascinating worldbuilding; showrunners treat viewers with respect and don't try to use cute aliens or legacy characters to make me keep watching the show" and this would apply to all episodes aired so far.

----------


## Wintermoot

Speaking only for myself, I've been conditioned by this forum to never post about anything I like because of the small number of users that tend to descend on every thread and tear things apart for.... well let's say personal reasons. I can't really go into it with any more detail because of how this is moderated. 

I love this show, but I don't think it's perfect. I wish each individual episode was more complete. But they have designed it so that each three episode set is a "complete" story and so the individual episodes can seem off to me. Too short, no internal climax or apogee and so on. However that is a little complaint. Because I get why they are doing it this way and I appreciate them trying a new experiment with it. I will get used to it if it gets used often enough. 

This last episode, there was one jarring bit in the beginning. Between episodes, I guess, Andor has made movements of recruiting a cell of others who want to escape, beginning his sabotage of the systems and so on and I would've liked to see that rather than have it off screen because for a brief moment I was convinced I'd missed an episode somehow. 

I also don't like the previously strong female character being reduced to torture victim motif with Kes. Would've been nice to see her escape or somehow get an upper hand the way, you know male characters tend to do when they are being questioned and tortured. *shrug* 

But, hey, I absolutely LOVE the way they have given living the Imperial life complexity and weight. Love the cinematography, love the sets, love the costumes, love the world building. My little complaints aren't even enough to make me drop this from 10/10 stars.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Maelstrom*
> _Just out of curiosity, are we only supposed to negatively discuss Films/Series here on GITP, or is it really only three or 4 of us watching this series?_


I was just about to quote the last line of your previous post, which certainly sums up how I feel.  

I'm currently in an accelerating work crunch, so both viewing and posting are delayed, but still loving just about everything about this show.  In particular from yesterday:

*Spoiler*
Show

The Empire using the weaponized death screams of a race undergoing genocide for psychological torture is compounded atrocity.  Its hideous to imagine the details as presentedand its _exactly_ what the Empire would do.   

Also, great to see Andy Serkis, which I wasn't expectingand also great that he's giving one of his best performances that I've seen.

----------


## Peelee

> I am watching Andor, but every time I wonder what I could write about it.
> "Competent writing, good acting, interesting characters, fascinating worldbuilding; showrunners treat viewers with respect and don't try to use cute aliens or legacy characters to make me keep watching the show" and this would apply to all episodes aired so far.


Characterization comes to mind, which is one of the show's strongest features (among many strong features). For example, speculation on Syril is rampant on other sites (and was on here for a bit).

I think at least part of the reason is that another great strength of the show is its ability to successfully communicate allegory and social commentary on things that might not be able to be discussed on these forums. For example, I would love to talk about the ending of episode 7 (well, the vast majority of that episode, really, but especially the end), but I would not be able to discuss it at much length here.

----------


## Bunny Commando

> I also don't like the previously strong female character being reduced to torture victim motif with Kes. Would've been nice to see her escape or somehow get an upper hand the way, you know male characters tend to do when they are being questioned and tortured. *shrug*


*Spoiler*
Show

If you're talking about Bix (I don't remember any character named Kes being tortured), she was not being questioned by some random mook that could be easily discarded; she was being interrogated by Dedra, the main antagonist of the show. Bix escaping or getting the upper hand with Dedra present would've completely destroyed the character development of the latter: Dedra has being portrayed so far as highly competent and quite intelligent, being in any way defeated by a secondary character would make her no longer a credible threat from a narrative standpoint.
Of course now Dedra is back on Coruscant and Bix is watched by some random mook, so her escaping in some daring way could certainly happen without Dedra being showed as less capable.





> I think at least part of the reason is that another great strength of the show is its ability to successfully communicate allegory and social commentary on things that might not be able to be discussed on these forums. For example, I would love to talk about the ending of episode 7 (well, the vast majority of that episode, really, but especially the end), but I would not be able to discuss it at much length here.


Good point. I would put that ability under "good writing" and "treating your viewers with respect", since I never felt preached at by Andor.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Bunny Commando*
> _"Competent writing, good acting, interesting characters, fascinating worldbuilding; showrunners treat viewers with respect and don't try to use cute aliens or legacy characters to make me keep watching the show._


All of this and more.

I love the Mandalorian, but this show is literally lightyears beyond in every way.

----------


## ecarden

Basically what everyone else said. I don't have much to say, because I'm just enjoying the hell out of it.

I do hope we'll get something at some point from Mon's awful husband and daughter to provide them a little more depth than they've currently got. That could be used in a couple different ways. My fear is they're just there to eventually turn on her, or be murdered, but I hope we'll either see:

1) Some usage of them to explore some of the older fault lines in the Rebellion/Empire. We see a bit of this with Saw's unwillingness to work with Separatists, but we could see some old lines inside the Empire too. There were whole factions which wanted peace with the Separatists and didn't go anywhere during the transition. Given her husband's reference to old Regimental friends (if I'm remembering right) we might see some old beefs about things like 'let's not create reinforcement clones even as we're fighting a galactic scale civil war' re-emerge.

2) That they've figured out that something is going on, whether they think it's an affair, corruption, or political activity and acting in self-defense, just bail altogether. They don't turn her in, they just leave, and leave open the question of whether they might have been on her side if she'd been more open about what she was doing.

----------


## Wintermoot

[QUOTE=Bunny Commando;25625963]*Spoiler*
Show

If you're talking about Bix (I don't remember any character named Kes being tortured), she was not being questioned by some random mook that could be easily discarded; she was being interrogated by Dedra, the main antagonist of the show. Bix escaping or getting the upper hand with Dedra present would've completely destroyed the character development of the latter: Dedra has being portrayed so far as highly competent and quite intelligent, being in any way defeated by a secondary character would make her no longer a credible threat from a narrative standpoint.
Of course now Dedra is back on Coruscant and Bix is watched by some random mook, so her escaping in some daring way could certainly happen without Dedra being showed as less capable.



Yeah I meant Bix. And I simply don't agree with you. To be honest, I find torture scenes to be boring and overdone and overwrought all told, so I have a bias against them. I certainly don't see how it helps builds Dedra's character. It would be interesting to see her get what she wants WITHOUT having to resort to her pet torturer, or showing that she's more than just another scenery chewing evil mustache twirling torture using bad guy. Which is what it reduces her to IMO. I mean, they had the great bit where she orchestrated having the other guy be pulled out in front of her and they had the great bit of her telling Bix what she already knows and deduced, all of which showed her competence and intelligence, but then they end it with "you arent' going to believe me anyway" "no." *walks out leaving Bix to be tortured for NO REASON AT ALL other than pure malevolence because she already knows everything she's going to know at that point. So, yeah, scenes like that don't help build characters to me, they just reduces them to yet another evil bad guy, mwah ha ha. So why have them? Great. Now we know that Dedra is someone who tortures people not to get information but just out of general kicks and thrills. Whoopie. I mean we were talking about how nice it is to have real characterization and believable motivation building for the imperials. To me, this just undercuts that work.

But again, I'm speaking from my own bias and place. I just don't think these torture scenes add anything anymore. I find them lazy and overdone and they cause me to tune out.

----------


## Peelee

> I also don't like the previously strong female character being reduced to torture victim motif with Kes. Would've been nice to see her escape or somehow get an upper hand the way, you know male characters tend to do when they are being questioned and tortured. *shrug*


Like Han Solo in _ESB_, for example?



> I mean, they had the great bit where she orchestrated having the other guy be pulled out in front of her and they had the great bit of her telling Bix what she already knows and deduced, all of which showed her competence and intelligence, but then they end it with "you arent' going to believe me anyway" "no." *walks out leaving Bix to be tortured for NO REASON AT ALL other than pure malevolence because she already knows everything she's going to know at that point.


The dialogue exchange you quote there is concerning Bix telling the information _before/without_ being tortured. _That_ is what Dedra wouldn't believe. Getting information after torture is information she _will_ believe.

She's not twirling a mustache here. She is acknowledging that Bix saw through the pretense at the start to try to get extra information to potentially compare with what they get during the torture.

----------


## dancrilis

> ... walks out leaving Bix to be tortured for NO REASON AT ALL other than pure malevolence ...


Leaving aside that the torture worked in that she got new and accurate information?

----------


## Peelee

So to my knowledge, we have:
Padme being captured in TPM. She is rescued by Jedi.Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme being captured in AotC. They are rescued by the Jedi and a literal army.Nobody is captured in RotS.Galen is captured in R1. He is killed during a rescue attempt. Jyn is also captured. She is rescued by Rebel Alliance soldiers.Leia is captured in ANH. She is rescued by Luke, Han, and Chewbacca.Han, Leia, and Chewbacca are captured in TESB. Leia and Chewbacca are rescued by Lando.Han is rescued in RotJ by Luke, Leia, and Chewbacca. Luke is captured. He is rescued by Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker.Poe is captured in TFA. He is rescued by Finn. Rey is also captured. She is rescued by Han and Finn.Finn and Rey are captured in TLJ. Rey rescues herself and Finn.Nobody could rescue the audience from TRoS.I cannot recall offhand the captures and rescues in TCW, Rebels, Resistance, or BoBFGrogu is captured in The Mandalorian. He is rescued by Mandalorians.Leia is captured in Kenobi. She is rescued by Kenobi.Virtually every time anyone gets captured, they do not "escape or somehow get an upper hand", regardless of gender.

I cannot agree with the complaint of "Would've been nice to see her escape or somehow get an upper hand the way, you know male characters tend to do when they are being questioned and tortured. *shrug*"

----------


## Wintermoot

> Leaving aside that the torture worked in that she got new and accurate information?


What new information? That she'd met her contact exactly six times? Because everything else she presented later on was information she'd already had based on telling Bix what she already knew. Seriously. How useful!

I'm just, personally, tired of the entire "include pointless torture scene" in shows entirely. They add nothing. It didn't help Bix's characterisation. It didn't help Daydra's characterization. It didn't help advance the plot. It didn't help establish anything new or interesting about the universe we are in. Yes. The Empire tortures people. They have entire DROIDS built for it. We KNOW! Skipping over it entirely and jumping to "here's the information we gathered on planet x" scene would've worked just as well. 

Look, I'm not going to keep talking about this. I gave my opinion about a scene I didn't particularly enjoy and explained why. End of. I don't need you to agree with me and don't really care that you don't.

----------


## Peelee

> I'm just, personally, tired of the entire "include pointless torture scene" in shows entirely. They add nothing. *[snip]* It didn't help advance the plot.


I was unaware that that episode was the series finale.

----------


## ecarden

> What new information? That she'd met her contact exactly six times? Because everything else she presented later on was information she'd already had based on telling Bix what she already knew. Seriously. How useful!


No, the six times was what the empire extracted from the person before her. What they got from her was that she could (and presumably would) identify Axis. That's why she's alive at the end of the episode. She had refused to participate, she was tortured, she broke and answered their questions. 




> I'm just, personally, tired of the entire "include pointless torture scene" in shows entirely. They add nothing. It didn't help Bix's characterisation. It didn't help Daydra's characterization. It didn't help advance the plot. It didn't help establish anything new or interesting about the universe we are in. Yes. The Empire tortures people. They have entire DROIDS built for it. We KNOW! Skipping over it entirely and jumping to "here's the information we gathered on planet x" scene would've worked just as well.


I disagree intensely and this goes back to what you said at the start of the conversation, that it would have been more impressive/better if she'd gotten the information by being clever, rather than resorting to torture. But she's not 'resorting to' torture. She's using torture, because it's a tool to her, just like any other. That the same woman we were (or at least I was) rooting for to win the office politics in the ISB is a cold-blooded torturer, who, no, would not have trusted a full confession without torture, is a big part of her characterization. 

They don't linger on it, or use it as torture porn or anything, but yes, Derdra tortures people, efficiently, ruthlessly and without any hesitation or doubt. That's who she is. 

And Bix, it looks like, is someone who broke under torture. That's who she is, now. It's not all she can ever be (indeed, my guess is at some point she'll be given the opportunity to ID Luthen and won't, either lying, or just pretending not to notice), but it's part of her characterization now. And that's fine.

----------


## Wintermoot

> I was unaware that that episode was the series finale.


I'm sure you think this is making some clever point. It isn't. 





> *snip*


great! glad it works for you. Doesn't work for me.

----------


## dancrilis

> What they got from her was that she could (and presumably would) identify Axis.


*Spoiler: Not sure how long we should spoiler tag things for, no harm in being cautious.*
Show

They got that Andor was clean shaven and rich when he returned around the time of the robbery and used that information to but together that he was likely involved in the robbery based on witness testimony thereby linking a minor operation of selling stolen imperial property with much more significant actions and thereby acting to reinforce the ISB's (correct) suspicions of the makings of organised rebellion.

----------


## ecarden

> *Spoiler: Not sure how long we should spoiler tag things for, no harm in being cautious.*
> Show
> 
> They got that Andor was clean shaven and rich when he returned around the time of the robbery and used that information to but together that he was likely involved in the robbery based on witness testimony thereby linking a minor operation of selling stolen imperial property with much more significant actions and thereby acting to reinforce the ISB's (correct) suspicions of the makings of organised rebellion.


Oh, indeed, I wasn't trying to say that that was all they'd gotten out of her just distinguish between stuff that got her kidnapped/arrested and stuff that came out of her being kidnapped/arrested. Sorry for being unclear.

----------


## Peelee

> I'm sure you think this is making some clever point. It isn't.


I actually did not think it was a clever point. I thought it was an obvious point. We haven't seen the result of her being tortured so you can't say it was pointless yet. It may pay off in the next episode, becuase the show is still ongoing.

I hardly think that is terribly clever.

----------


## Maelstrom

RE: Torture and it's use by the Empire

Yes, a detestable thing to be seen and/or used, but the fact of the matter, in this universe, with their methods, it is fast and relatively effective (as is shown in many on/off screen examples).  I am glad, for one, that the methods are not necessarily detailed and the procedure is not shown, only hinted at/briefly shown at the beginning of the 'enhanced interrogation'.

What I am interested to see is the dichotomy I do believe we'll see (and have seen in other practices/events) showing the dirty underside of the Rebellion and the fact that they (especially when they are not organized and still in factions) use the same dirty tricks the Empire does (and I daresay, possibly using more primitive and barbaric methods, given their lack of funding and/or 'sophistication').


On a slightly different note, and going with this type of Star Wars story, this brings to mind a storyline I'd like to see (especially at this point), one told from a 'good' imperial citizen, only seeing the bad things these terrorists are doing to their lawful communities and lapping up the propaganda from the Empire.  At one point the shades of grey become more and more apparent and the interpersonal rifts and finding out where people stand become more and more opaque and questionable. One protagonist veers toward the Imperial side, and the other, maybe a close childhood friend, goes off towards the Rebellion...

----------


## Bunny Commando

The writing of Andor has been quite tight so far, all scenes providing either characterization, worldbuilding or advanced the plot (some of the best scenes did all three, like the first time we see Syril). While not liking torture in a story is entirely understandable, saying it was pointless is false. Even if Dedra torturing Bix is not going to advance the plot (something I doubt, but let's assume it won't for now) it provides both worldbuilding and characterization.

Up until now Dedra has been portrayed as little more than a glorified desk jockey, someone that might even not be fully aware of the oppressive nature of the government she serves; now we finally see that she is definitely willing to do whatever she has to in order to accomplish her objectives and fully onboard with the Empire's MO. That scene firmly establishes her as the villain of this story.

And the Empire itself is shown as cruel and uncaring - as it should be. Gorst tells us how terrible the Empire actually is, that even though the rebels might be flawed people that do not always do what's right, they're still preferable to a galaxy ruled by the Empire. 

Lastly, Bix finally in the hands of the Empire is quite important for the plot: she can identify Axis and while Dedra might've suspected as much, she needed confirmation.

----------


## Hyoi

> So to my knowledge, we have:
> *SNIP LIST OF CAPTURE/ESCAPE EXAMPLES*


You forgot:

* Padme is captured during the assault on the Naboo palace ("they win this round"). She gains the upper hand and escapes ("let's negotiate a _new_ treaty")
* Leia is captured by Jabba the Hut. She gains the upper hand, kills him, and escapes.
* Rey is captured by Kylo Ren. She gains the upper hand, reads Kylo's mind, and escapes.

Maybe the previous poster was referring to movies other than Star Wars?

----------


## KorvinStarmast

> or is it really only three or 4 of us watching this series?


 Disney never gets another dollar of mine, ever, if I can help it. (Granted, with a grandaughter, there may be some films that are 'must see' with her in the years to come).  

I used to enjoy Star Wars and such.  I tried to like Mandalorian. Season 1, OK, Season 2...like Bilbo, to little butter spread over too much toast. 

I doubt I am the only person who has more or less had it with Disney.

----------


## Hyoi

> Just out of curiosity, are we only supposed to negatively discuss Films/Series here on GITP, or is it really only three or 4 of us watching this series?  This is an honest question, not asking people to engage in arguments over niggly details, but I really am curious as to others are watching and have absolutely nothing to say/add/discuss (and we should just let this thread drop) or if others just are not watching (and then I may ask 'why not?')


I'm watching it, and thoroughly enjoying it. I haven't posted about it here for three reasons:

1. I'm a chronic lurker who rarely posts about anything even though I read y'all's thoughts with interest.

2. Almost everything I think is worthy of discussion about this series is dangerously close to Real World Flame Bait and I don't want to kick any bees' nests.

3. What remains has mostly already been said by one of you, or is just "I liked this because I thought it was cool and it made me happy" which doesn't lead to good discussion.

----------


## ecarden

> You forgot:
> 
> * Padme is captured during the assault on the Naboo palace ("they win this round"). She gains the upper hand and escapes ("let's negotiate a _new_ treaty")
> * Leia is captured by Jabba the Hut. She gains the upper hand, kills him, and escapes.
> * Rey is captured by Kylo Ren. She gains the upper hand, reads Kylo's mind, and escapes.
> 
> Maybe the previous poster was referring to movies other than Star Wars?


Uh...isn't Padme rescued by Sabe in that scene?
On Leia...sort of? She escapes in the massive battle that Luke begins
Rey I agree on, but think was (1) bad storytelling and (2) clearly only possible due to First Order incompetence and Jedi powers. Now, Bix may, perhaps escape from the Empire, especially with assistance from the rebels, but escaping from Dedra at this point would massively undercut our (presumably) main antagonist.

----------


## MarkVIIIMarc

I read here to help me catch up on things I did not notice or did not know that were going on in the background.

Also to help me remember character names lol.

It is also reminds me to win at life you have to figure out how to enjoy time spent doing a variety of things.

----------


## Hyoi

> Uh...isn't Padme rescued by Sabe in that scene?


Sabe creates a distraction that Padme exploits, which I saw as all happening under Padme's leadership.




> On Leia...sort of? She escapes in the massive battle that Luke begins


I'll grant she benefits from the chaos, but I'd still say she counts as an example of "female character gains the upper hand and escapes her captors"




> Rey I agree on, but think was (1) bad storytelling and (2) clearly only possible due to First Order incompetence and Jedi powers.


That's a respectable opinion, but the case I'm making here isn't about the storytelling quality, it's about the presence or absence of gender bias in what characters manage to escape when captured.

----------


## Peelee

> You forgot:
> 
> * Padme is captured during the assault on the Naboo palace ("they win this round"). She gains the upper hand and escapes ("let's negotiate a _new_ treaty")
> * Leia is captured by Jabba the Hut. She gains the upper hand, kills him, and escapes.
> * Rey is captured by Kylo Ren. She gains the upper hand, reads Kylo's mind, and escapes.
> 
> Maybe the previous poster was referring to movies other than Star Wars?


For the first one, yes. For the second one, Leia killed Jabba and broke her chains but she would have been stuck on the sail barge without Luke killing all opposition, instructing her on how to shoot the ship with the mounted gun, and swinging her to safety. For the third one, I did count that one - she escaped the room, but was still stuck on Starkiller Base.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

Finally caught up with the series after real life stuff kept me from watching much of anything for a bit.  Good to see the third arc is, if anything, even stronger than the first two.  Watched the last two eps back to back and decided I could easily watch a show just set in the ISB. 

*Spoiler: Not serious, but one thought went through my head*
Show

I kept picturing the "incident" in level two was that the guy moved there from Level four found that everyone on the floor was dismantling the things they were building on the other side and snapped.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

The reason I don't post a lot in this thread or in others like it is mainly because people who like things often don't take the time to intensely scrutinize and pick apart why they like something. They just like it and move on with their lives. It's the negative opinions of people who are unsatisfied with something they wanted to like that get endlessly talked about and examined and repeated and reexamined, especially in Internet discussions, and it's not something I typically want to engage in.

As we all know, the Star Wars fandom has some of the most hateful fans of any franchise around, to the extent that it's a common joke that there are as many people who love to hate Star Wars as those who actually enjoy it! It's honestly exasperating, and I don't have the social energy for it most of the time.

The recent exchanges about the use of torture is a prime example of this. "I don't like X, and I think X should never be in a show, and I don't care if you agree with me or disagree with me but I'm going to keep talking and talking about it." Exhausting.  :Small Sigh: 


EDIT: The show's great, though. Love it!  :Small Wink:

----------


## runeghost

> Just out of curiosity, are we only supposed to negatively discuss Films/Series here on GITP, or is it really only three or 4 of us watching this series?  This is an honest question, not asking people to engage in arguments over niggly details, but I really am curious as to others are watching and have absolutely nothing to say/add/discuss (and we should just let this thread drop) or if others just are not watching (and then I may ask 'why not?')


I'm watching and enjoying Andor quite a bit. Just haven't had much time to comment, especially for something as nuanced and complex as Andor.


For my two cents, I think the episodic nature adds something we wouldn't get if we could binge it, and makes it better, particularly with the whole "arcs building on each other" which I really like.

Andor hits a sweet spot for me. There are the nice little nods to the expanded SW universe, but they are not key to the show - you don't need to know a single thing about Belsavis or the Star Forge to fully enjoy the show, but they add verisimilitude and please the long-time fans. It's also pretty good about not spoon-feeding us the larger plots and character complexities, but also isn't deliberately hiding stuff from us. I.e. we know that Mon Mothma's family life is far from idyllic, but we don't know the roots of it.

Also, as a one-time player of West End Games' Star Wars RPG, every time I hear "ISB" my brain says, "Imperial Sunbathers and Birdwatchers".

----------


## Spacewolf

I've watched abit, it's decent though hasn't really blown me away. The main issue is what I expected in that Andor is probably the least interesting person in the entire galaxy and has the least interesting storyline. I'd honestly of rather had either of the two Imps from the meteor planet or either of the Mothmas as the lead character.

----------


## Talakeal

Above average sci-fi show. The first few episodes were slow, but now I am hooked.

Two big problems for me:

Andor himself is the least interesting and least likable character in Rogue One. I am almost always rooting for him to lose and the antagonists are better characters.

I cant see this as Star Wars. It has such a different tone, and it all kind of seems pointless because we know nothing really matters, its all going to be resolved by space wizards with laser swords. I cant imagine any of the ISB or senate characters reporting to Palpatine or Vader without it turning into Robot Chicken.

----------


## Peelee

> I cant see this as Star Wars. It has such a different tone, and it all kind of seems pointless because we know nothing really matters, its all going to be resolved by space wizards with laser swords.


In the same sense that, for example, nothing in Daredevil matters because it's all going to be resolved by wizards and mechanized suit billionaires with plot rocks. 

There are more stories in the world than simply "the biggest one must be punched". Other people have lives. Andor explores some of those other lives. 



> I cant imagine any of the ISB or senate characters reporting to Palpatine or Vader without it turning into Robot Chicken.


Perhaps if one does not think about Palpatine or Vader acting like they do in Robot Chicken, and instead acting as they do in Star Wars, it would be simpler to imagine. Perhaps this will help.

----------


## Talakeal

> Perhaps if you do not think about Palpatine or Vader acting like they do in Robot Chicken, and instead acting as they do in Star Wars, it would be simpler to imagine. Perhaps this will help.


I think one of us is misunderstanding the other.

Vader works in that scene because he is playing off theatrical performances given by one-dimensional villains, and even then he goes less than two minutes without choking someone using magic.

The emperor is even worse; I can't recall a scene where he isn't chewing the scenery, mustache twirling, and spitting out one-liners.* Maybe the hologram in Empire?


The joke in Robot Chicken is that you have these over the top characters engaged in day to day life acting like real people who don't have the camera rolling one hundred percent of the time, and they act significantly more subdued and reasonable than they do in the actual movies.



*Chancellor Palpatine in the prequels is more reasonable, but once he goes mask off in RoTS I can't see him going back.

----------


## Peelee

> I think one of us is misunderstanding the other.
> 
> Vader works in that scene because he is playing off theatrical performances given by one-dimensional villains, and even then he goes less than two minutes without choking someone using magic.
> 
> The emperor is even worse; I can't recall a scene where he isn't chewing the scenery, mustache twirling, and spitting out one-liners.* Maybe the hologram in Empire?
> 
> 
> The joke in Robot Chicken is that you have these over the top characters engaged in day to day life acting like real people who don't have the camera rolling one hundred percent of the time, and they act significantly more subdued and reasonable than they do in the actual movies.
> 
> ...


Vader choked one person, once, in the entire movie, and that person had directly insulted Vader on a personal level. In ESB, he is lethally punitive on officers who fail him in catastrophic ways (eg bungling an attack on the main rebel stronghold, or managing to lose a ship carrying one of the most important members of the Rebellion despite having a fleet of star destroyers at their disposal. And you don't think that the highest echelons can't report normal aspects without it being silly? 

Also, robot chicken has them acting more reasonably than in the movies? Robot chicken? Seriously?

I don't think there's any misunderstanding so much as there is a fundamental disagreement on was "more reasonable" means.

----------


## dancrilis

> Vader choked one person, once, in the entire movie, and that person had directly insulted Vader on a personal level.


Nothing to do with the overall point - but he choked two people, he just choked one of them via mundane means rather then with the force.

----------


## Peelee

> Nothing to do with the overall point - but he choked two people, he just choked one of them via mundane means rather then with the force.


Yeah, you got me there.

----------


## Talakeal

> Vader choked one person, once, in the entire movie, and that person had directly insulted Vader on a personal level. In ESB, he is lethally punitive on officers who fail him in catastrophic ways (eg bungling an attack on the main rebel stronghold, or managing to lose a ship carrying one of the most important members of the Rebellion despite having a fleet of star destroyers at their disposal. And you don't think that the highest echelons can't report normal aspects without it being silly? 
> 
> Also, robot chicken has them acting more reasonably than in the movies? Robot chicken? Seriously?
> 
> I don't think there's any misunderstanding so much as there is a fundamental disagreement on was "more reasonable" means.


Reasonable is probably not the right word. Realistic?

Let me try and phrase this another way.

Star Wars is very pulpy sci fi. The characters are less people and more jungian archetypes. The dialogue is theatrical and melodramatic. The aliens are look and sound bizarre. The costumes are ofer the top. Emotion trumps logic. Style trumps substance.

Most of the robot chicken sketches produce humor by putting these characters into very mundane situations like dealing with office politics, or being late for work, or dealing with an embarrassing relative, or trying to balance work with your personal life. 

Seeing such pulpy characters react to such mundane situations produces a ridiculous dissonance.


Andor is a much more grounded sci fi show. It is dark, gritty, and down to Earth. The story is less space opera and more political thriller. 

Trying to imagine traditional Star Wars characters interacting with the low key political elements gives me the same sort of dissonance that Robot Chicken does, but it wont be played for laughs.

----------


## Peelee

> Reasonable is probably not the right word. Realistic?


I wonder if there's just a different version of Robot Chicken that I've seen.

Robot chicken is not realistic, or reasonable, or anything along those lines. Robot chicken is similar to a lot of humor in Family Guy - it has a person acting over the top in utterly banal ways in situations that are ill suited to banality.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Talakeal*
> _Star Wars is very pulpy sci fi.
> 
> Seeing such pulpy characters react to such mundane situations produces a ridiculous dissonance._


Where you see dissonance, I see a very sophisticated approach to exploring other kinds of stories set in the Star Wars galaxy.

The Skywalker saga is presented in a certain style, and its designed for that style, but theres room for other stories and other styles in the same galaxy.  I dont call that dissonance; I call that room to grow.

----------


## The Glyphstone

Personally I'm delighted to see a Star Wars story that isn't, as said, centered entirely around space wizards with laser swords. It's a vast universe full of potential, but time and time again the focus has returned not simply to space wizards with laser swords, but one or two specific families of space wizards with laser swords and their hereditary sidekick lineages. The struggle here might not decide the fate of the galaxy, but it's sure important to the people involved, and they have no handy space wizard to come solve their problems.

----------


## Spacewolf

Yea I certainly don't mind seeing a Star Wars story going outside of it's usual tropes. It's just why Andors story out of all the billions of stories they could have told. I don't even remember him being popular in Rogue One nevermind years later so surely the star wars brand on it's own would have been enough of a selling point without his name attached to it, then they could have had abit more freedom for start/end points of the various arcs.

----------


## The Glyphstone

I can't argue there. Like I said earlier, I'm shocked that a backstory series for the blandest and most boring member of the Rogue One cast has turned out to be so popular.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Yea I certainly don't mind seeing a Star Wars story going outside of it's usual tropes. It's just why Andors story out of all the billions of stories they could have told. I don't even remember him being popular in Rogue One nevermind years later so surely the star wars brand on it's own would have been enough of a selling point without his name attached to it, then they could have had abit more freedom for start/end points of the various arcs.


Well the idea was to have a prequel to Rogue One, since it was a well-liked film. But Cassian was the only member of Rogue One's main cast who was a long-term member of the Rebellion. Possibly K-2SO, but he's firmly a sidekick character in the film. All of the other "rogues" were people who became rebels that day, basically. They have no other interesting story potential to speak of. Andor, on the other hand, was with the Rebels for years.

Maybe it would have been better to have a series about Saw Gerrera's rebel group, but his backstory was already established in The Clone Wars. And it's unlikely they'd be able to get Forest Whitaker for an entire series anyway.

So leaving that, unless they wanted to make up a new character for their "early days of the Rebellion" story, it's pretty much Andor or nothing. Especially if the goal is a tie-in with Rogue One. Considering Diego Luna is executive producer as well as the star, he probably was a big part of coming up with the idea in the first place?

----------


## Peelee

> Well the idea was to have a prequel to Rogue One, since it was a well-liked film. But Cassian was the only member of Rogue One's main cast who was a long-term member of the Rebellion. Possibly K-2SO, but he's firmly a sidekick character in the film. All of the other "rogues" were people who became rebels that day, basically. They have no other interesting story potential to speak of.


Excuse me, I'd have loved to see Bodhi's gradual disillusionment with the Empire. There's plenty of story potential in the others, just not for the specific story they wanted to tell.

----------


## The Glyphstone

Or Chirrut - you mean there are religions in Star Wars that aren't exclusively followed by good/evil space wizards with blue/red laser swords? And training hard enough in them makes you a Badass Normal who can be mistaken for a wizard at first glance?

----------


## Peelee

> Or Chirrut - you mean there are religions in Star Wars that aren't exclusively followed by good/evil space wizards with blue/red laser swords? And training hard enough in them makes you a Badass Normal who can be mistaken for a wizard at first glance?


I'd love if they re-canonized and explored the Jal Sha and Zeison Sha.

----------


## The Glyphstone

> I'd love if they re-canonized and explored the Jal Sha and Zeison Sha.


Can we leave Teras Kasi in the trash, though?

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Sorry, I meant no Rebel Alliance story potential.

----------


## Aeson

> Or Chirrut - you mean there are religions  in Star Wars that aren't exclusively followed by good/evil space  wizards with blue/red laser swords? And training hard enough in them  makes you a Badass Normal who can be mistaken for a wizard at first  glance?


The idea that Chirrut is a mundane character is utterly ridiculous; even  if you accept that his martial skills are within the capability of a  mundane blind man, he's able to get to a specific switch in an open area with which he has  minimal familiarity in the middle of a firefight, he has no apparent mundane way to be aware of Jyn Erso's kyber  necklace, and he justifies his  ability to read Cassian Andor's lethal intent on Eadu by talking about  how 'the Force swirls' around him or something like that. It is  blatantly obvious that Chirrut is Force-sensitive to a greater degree  than the other characters around him.

Also, as to Chirrut not  being a Jedi, for all intents and purposes he may as well be one; you  could easily replace Guardian of the Whills Chirrut with half-trained  Jedi Padawan / Youngling (or possibly even Order 66-surviving Jedi Knight) Chirrut without changing pretty much anything  in the movie, and especially considering that he's essentially hiding in  plain sight in a city with a significant Imperial presence you don't  even need much (or any) justification for why he doesn't use a  lightsaber or make use of more overt Force abilities like telekinesis. Chirrut doesn't talk about the Force in a way that  distinguishes him from Jedi characters in even so trivial a manner as  the terminology he uses, his "I am one with the Force; the Force is with  me" mantra could easily have been that of a Jedi, his Guardian of the  Whills costume is largely indistinct from that of a Jedi (especially  considering that there's precedent for deviation from the 'standard'  brown-and-beige Jedi robes even in the live-action films and for armored  Jedi outside of them), and neither _Rogue One_ nor any of the  other films delve into the philosophy and beliefs of the Jedi or the  Guardians of the Whills to any extent which would allow the viewer to  distinguish between the two.

----------


## Peelee

I have no great love for main characters being force sensitive, but the dumbest decision in Rogue One's writers room was to decide Chirrut is not force sensitive. Dumbest decision by parses.

----------


## dancrilis

> I have no great love for main characters being force sensitive, but the dumbest decision in Rogue One's writers room was to decide Chirrut is not force sensitive. Dumbest decision by parses.


I do have to wonder a bit about the force, if it is a thing i.e 'an energy force that binds all living things' and if it has a will of its own i.e 'the will of the force' then in theory someone who is not force sensitive could be seen by the force and the force could choose to help some people out.

Perhaps living your life in a manner that the force approves of i.e 'weirdo' encourages the force to assist you on occassions.

This would be different then actually force sensitive people who are able to learn control, which we know Yoda felt Luke needed to know in order to become a Jedi.

----------


## Peelee

> I do have to wonder a bit about the force, if it is a thing i.e 'an energy force that binds all living things' and if it has a will of its own i.e 'the will of the force' then in theory someone who is not force sensitive could be seen by the force and the force could choose to help some people out.
> 
> Perhaps living your life in a manner that the force approves of i.e 'weirdo' encourages the force to assist you on occassions.
> 
> This would be different then actually force sensitive people who are able to learn control, which we know Yoda felt Luke needed to know in order to become a Jedi.


On that matter, the Force having a "will" is the dumbest decision in Star Wars overall. Even moreso than all of Episode IX.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> I have no great love for main characters being force sensitive, but the dumbest decision in Rogue One's writers room was to decide Chirrut is not force sensitive. Dumbest decision by parses.


He clearly is, though? What do you mean?  :Small Confused:

----------


## Peelee

> He clearly is, though? What do you mean?


Canonically he is not force sensitive. If you think, "but he clearly is, what the hell is that?!", then I agree with you.

As I said it was the dumbest decision the writers of Rogue 1 made by far.

----------


## Aeson

> Canonically he is not force sensitive. If you think, "but he clearly is, what the hell is that?!", then I agree with you.
> 
> As I said it was the dumbest decision the writers of Rogue 1 made by far.


More specifically, there's an interview somewhere where one of the writers, or maybe someone else associated with the production of _Rogue One_, asserted something along the lines of "Chirrut isn't Force-sensitive."

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> More specifically, there's an interview somewhere where one of the writers, or maybe someone else associated with the production of _Rogue One_, asserted something along the lines of "Chirrut isn't Force-sensitive."


They're wrong.  :Small Annoyed:

----------


## Peelee

> They're wrong.


You could write a letter to Leland Chee and Pablo Hidalgo complaining about it, but yeah. Chirrut can't use the Force.

----------


## MarkVIIIMarc

> You could write a letter to Leland Chee and Pablo Hidalgo complaining about it, but yeah. Chirrut can't use the Force.


Is there a chance that we're splitting hairs here? Perhaps he sense some things ridiculously well but can't forceheal or forcechoke?

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Chirrut is doing more than just the typical blind kung fu tricks in the film. He can dodge blaster shots as well as (or better than) any Jedi. He can fire his staff blaster to take down enemy TIE Fighters, I'm talking trick shots like a blind Hawkeye out there. He calls out to Jyn from across a crowded street because he somehow knows she's wearing a kyber crystal. He can sense that Cassian is contemplating murder.

I don't know what they call that in kung fu movies, and yes I know he's played by a big kung fu movie star, but in Star Wars we call those things The Force.

Clearly he never does anything as blatant as levitating objects or affecting someone's mind. He's not in any way formally trained as a Jedi. But his passive sense of the world around him is too good to be anything but a specialized Force talent.



Maybe it's technically correct to say that he can't USE The Force in an active sense, since everything he does with it is passive and reactive, but that's not the same as being Force sensitive.

----------


## Peelee

> Chirrut is doing more than just the typical blind kung fu tricks in the film. He can dodge blaster shots as well as (or better than) any Jedi. He can fire his staff blaster to take down enemy TIE Fighters, I'm talking trick shots like a blind Hawkeye out there. He calls out to Jyn from across a crowded street because he somehow knows she's wearing a kyber crystal. He can sense that Cassian is contemplating murder.
> 
> I don't know what they call that in kung fu movies, and yes I know he's played by a big kung fu movie star, but in Star Wars we call those things The Force.
> 
> Clearly he never does anything as blatant as levitating objects or affecting someone's mind. He's not in any way formally trained as a Jedi. But his passive sense of the world around him is too good to be anything but a specialized Force talent.


Exactly. 



> Maybe it's technically correct to say that he can't USE The Force in an active sense, since everything he does with it is passive and reactive, but that's not the same as being Force sensitive.


I'd call shooting down a TIE fighter while being blind active. Also, with a portable hand weapon. Also not a huge fan of that, but it'd not as bad as him not being able to use the Force when he clearly does. And, again, simply not letting the actor play him as blind would have solved virtually everything.

----------


## Maelstrom

Oh man episode 10...heartbeat in overload. Andy Serkis FTW. That is all ;)

----------


## Peelee

Well that was heartbreaking.
*Spoiler*
Show

Even knowing they are going to die there if they don't escape, Kino still needs to be pushed, because he knows there's only one way out, and that one way is not available to him. He knows he is doomed. And he does it anyway and leads the prisoners.

Hell of a leader. Sacrifice was definitely the theme of that episode.

----------


## Maelstrom

> Well that was heartbreaking.
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Even knowing they are going to die there if they don't escape, Kino still needs to be pushed, because he knows there's only one way out, and that one way is not available to him. He knows he is doomed. And he does it anyway and leads the prisoners.
> 
> Hell of a leader. Sacrifice was definitely the theme of that episode.


*Spoiler: Sacrifice*
Show

Agreed, between the Prison Break where they/we knew some would be sacrificed for the greater good (and esp Kino, who I'll still holdout, hoping to see him again -- c'mon, I'd hope there is some emergency gear stowed *somewhere*!!), we see Mon possibly having to "sacrifice" her daughter for the cause, Luthen ready to sacrifice Kreegyr to keep ISB from suspecting they have a mole in their midst, and speaking of that mole , Lonni realizing he'll be sacrificing an 'idealic' life to be run from the inside for the Rebellion and then Luthen who has 'sacrifice everything' for the cause.  

I've just finished watching and will watch one more time tonight with the wife, but man, it just keeps getting better and better.  Just bummed that we're almost at the end of the season. 
 Oh and yes, we have an answer to the maelstroms outside the prison...quite clever for the most part...just have to wonder how they get that water out once it's through the turbines ;)

----------


## Peelee

> *Spoiler: Sacrifice*
> Show
> 
> Agreed, between the Prison Break where they/we knew some would be sacrificed for the greater good (and esp Kino, who I'll still holdout, hoping to see him again -- c'mon, I'd hope there is some emergency gear stowed *somewhere*!!), we see Mon possibly having to "sacrifice" her daughter for the cause, Luthen ready to sacrifice Kreegyr to keep ISB from suspecting they have a mole in their midst, and speaking of that mole , Lonni realizing he'll be sacrificing an 'idealic' life to be run from the inside for the Rebellion and then Luthen who has 'sacrifice everything' for the cause.  
> 
> I've just finished watching and will watch one more time tonight with the wife, but man, it just keeps getting better and better.  Just bummed that we're almost at the end of the season. 
>  Oh and yes, we have an answer to the maelstroms outside the prison...quite clever for the most part...just have to wonder how they get that water out once it's through the turbines ;)


*Spoiler: Kino*
Show

"You see someone's confused, someone who is lost, you get them moving and you keep them moving until we put this place behind us!" 

I choose to believe that people saw and helped him, even though it's not really that kind of show.

Also, "ONE WAY OUT!" gave me chills. So simple and so potentially clichéd but so well done.

----------


## Palanan

That may have been the best acting Ive ever seen from Andy Serkis.

Deeply powerful, both Kino and the episode as a whole.

----------


## Hyoi

Just saw episode 10. How long is considered appropriate to spoiler thoughts on the newest episode? In general terms, I love how this show has so many characters that I find myself deeply invested in. Like I feel like I'd watch an entire miniseries soley about any of Luthen, Deedra, Mon Mothma, Marva+Clem, Vel+Cinta, Bix, Syril, Kino, Nemik, Skeen... shoot I'd even watch a show entirely about Cyril's mom.

Also at this point I've pretty much forgotten that Andor is even a name: when is the last time anyone called Cassian that in the show?




> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> ...
> 
> Also, "ONE WAY OUT!" gave me chills. So simple and so potentially clichéd but so well done.


Yes to both of those thoughts. "ONE WAY OUT" is going down with "Fear is the Mind Killer" as a phrase that is burned into my memory now.

----------


## ecarden

What do folks think about Luthen as a character/rebel? He's clearly being set up to be moderately antagonistic (use Imperial tactics, orders the assassination of Cassian), but is also clearly extremely loyal to the Rebellion, such as it is at this point?

----------


## Maelstrom

> What do folks think about Luthen as a character/rebel? He's clearly being set up to be moderately antagonistic (use Imperial tactics, orders the assassination of Cassian), but is also clearly extremely loyal to the Rebellion, such as it is at this point?


For me, that is exactly what Luthien is saying in his monologue, esp the bit "I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them"...

*Spoiler: Luthien's monologue*
Show

"...and what do you sacrifice?"

"Calm. Kindness, kinship, love. I've given up all chance at inner peace, I've made my mind a sunless place. I share my dreams with ghosts. I wake up every day to an equation I wrote fifteen years ago from which there's only one conclusion: I'm damned for what I do. My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, mymy eagerness to fight, has set me on a path from which there's no escape. I yearned to be a savior for injustice without contemplating the cost, and by the time I looked down there was no longer any ground beneath my feet.

"What is mywhat is my sacrifice? I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burned my decency for someone else's future! I burned my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll never see! Now, the ego that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude... so, what do I sacrifice? Everything!

"Just stay with me, Lonnie. I need all the heroes I can get."



Luthien is *exactly* the kind of personality the Rebellion needs driving it from outside the limelight

----------


## KillianHawkeye

It makes sense that the darker side of the Rebellion is getting the spotlight in this series, since it was also part of Cassian's backstory in Rogue One. The original trilogy makes the Rebels all seem like good-hearted, plucky freedom fighters, but there always had to be their share of spies, assassins, and saboteurs among them.

I remember Cassian saying that he and the other Rogue volunteers had all done terrible things for the Rebellion, and they all just wanted to make sure it was to accomplish something rather than give everything up to run and hide. 

And this is where it all starts.

----------


## Peelee

> It makes sense that the darker side of the Rebellion is getting the spotlight in this series, since it was also part of Cassian's backstory in Rogue One. The original trilogy makes the Rebels all seem like good-hearted, plucky freedom fighters, but there always had to be their share of spies, assassins, and saboteurs among them.
> 
> I remember Cassian saying that he and the other Rogue volunteers had all done terrible things for the Rebellion, and they all just wanted to make sure it was to accomplish something rather than give everything up to run and hide. 
> 
> And this is where it all starts.


Aye, previously this was the most famous spy in the Rebellion.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Aye, previously this was the most famous spy in the Rebellion.


This is totally unrelated, but does anyone know how to erase the knowledge of something I've just read? Asking for a friend...  :Small Amused:

----------


## Peelee

> This is totally unrelated, but does anyone know how to erase the knowledge of something I've just read? Asking for a friend...


This might help.

Go ahead, say something else. I can do this all day.

----------


## PontificatusRex

> What do folks think about Luthen as a character/rebel? He's clearly being set up to be moderately antagonistic (use Imperial tactics, orders the assassination of Cassian), but is also clearly extremely loyal to the Rebellion, such as it is at this point?


Do we know for a fact that Luthen ordered Cassian's assassination? I remember it was his assistant giving the order and at the time I got the impression that she might have been using her own initiative there. Something about there interactions has made me feel that she doesn't more than just relay his orders.

Also, it really seemed to me that Luthen was trying to cultivate a relationship with Cassian in the hopes of recruiting him as an agent during their interactions, not just hire a disposable mercenary, even if the money was used as the hook.

----------


## Thomas Cardew

> Do we know for a fact that Luthen ordered Cassian's assassination? I remember it was his assistant giving the order and at the time I got the impression that she might have been using her own initiative there. Something about there interactions has made me feel that she doesn't more than just relay his orders.
> 
> Also, it really seemed to me that Luthen was trying to cultivate a relationship with Cassian in the hopes of recruiting him as an agent during their interactions, not just hire a disposable mercenary, even if the money was used as the hook.


That was my initial interpretation as well, but it appears he did. You see the assistant order it in episode 7; in episode 8 Luthen knows Vel and Cinta are hunting for Andor is okay with it. It could be that Luthen thinks they're trying to find Cassian without know they're going to kill Cassian... but Luthen's also upset knowing Andor is a lose end. Luthen might be trying to pitch him one last time, but the implication seems to be Luthen's aware/ responsible for the order.

Side question for the more lore aware : was the Vel - Mon Mothma relationship a pre-existing thing, an easter egg for aware fans, or something the show introduced?

----------


## Peelee

> That was my initial interpretation as well, but it appears he did. You see the assistant order it in episode 7; in episode 8 Luthen knows Vel and Cinta are hunting for Andor is okay with it. It could be that Luthen thinks they're trying to find Cassian without know they're going to kill Cassian... but Luthen's also upset knowing Andor is a lose end. Luthen might be trying to pitch him one last time, but the implication seems to be Luthen's aware/ responsible for the order.
> 
> Side question for the more lore aware : was the Vel - Mon Mothma relationship a pre-existing thing, an easter egg for aware fans, or something the show introduced?


Vel is an entirely new character in the show, as is the rest of Mon Mothma's family.

----------


## Maelstrom

> Vel is an entirely new character in the show, as is the rest of Mon Mothma's family.


With the exception of Lieda -- she's been around since Westend Games (Dark Empire Sourcebook) in the early 90's.  She had a son in that as well that has not popped up here yet

----------


## Peelee

> With the exception of Lieda -- she's been around since Westend Games (Dark Empire Sourcebook) in the early 90's.  She had a son in that as well that has not popped up here yet


Ah, ya got me there. I'm not terribly strong on the gaming and comics parts of Star Wars.

----------


## dancrilis

*Spoiler: Not overly impressed...*
Show


... with this arc to be honest.

It was fine but thought the second arc was stronger, also didn't like how the reason that the prisoners had to rebel was that one was transferred back to the same facility - if that was a problem then it would likely have been a problem no matter which facility they were transferred into and would have been a problem when others where transferred into this facility.

Not sure why the spy with the ISB was given a face to face either - it wouldn't be unexpected for some in an organisation like ISB to secretly monitor others in ISB and there didn't seem to be any need for a face to face at all as they could talk on without one.



It is still a fine show however.

----------


## Peelee

> *Spoiler: Not overly impressed...*
> Show
> 
> 
> ... with this arc to be honest.
> 
> It was fine but thought the second arc was stronger, also didn't like how the reason that the prisoners had to rebel was that one was transferred back to the same facility - if that was a problem then it would likely have been a problem no matter which facility they were transferred into and would have been a problem when others where transferred into this facility.
> 
> 
> ...


Why would you think that? 
*Spoiler*
Show

why would you think that? This is seemingly a low-security prison. Cassian didn't do violent crimes, it seems the other prisoners aren't displaying any latent violent tendencies. The prisoner transfer is not only new, but also likely bound for much harsher prisons where everyone is in for life and they don't need to worry about uprisings. Maybe places like legends Kessel where they could just work you until you die.

If they're reshuffling prisoners to other prisons, they're not going to send you to a place where people think they have any hope. They're going to send you to a place where nobody else will give a **** because they're already in there til they die. That was the mistake, someone slipped through a crack on a new policy and the entire floor of prisoners paid for it.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

I'm sure we'll get to see a scathing break down of somebody's unparalleled incompetence when we see how the Imperials react to news of a major jail break next episode.

----------


## dancrilis

> Why would you think that? 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> why would you think that? This is seemingly a low-security prison. Cassian didn't do violent crimes, it seems the other prisoners aren't displaying any latent violent tendencies. The prisoner transfer is not only new, but also likely bound for much harsher prisons where everyone is in for life and they don't need to worry about uprisings. Maybe places like legends Kessel where they could just work you until you die.
> 
> If they're reshuffling prisoners to other prisons, they're not going to send you to a place where people think they have any hope. They're going to send you to a place where nobody else will give a **** because they're already in there til they die. That was the mistake, someone slipped through a crack on a new policy and the entire floor of prisoners paid for it.


*Spoiler: I did consider that...*
Show


...and it could be used as an explanation, but it seems that is me filling in the blanks with pieces that I don't think fit, it seemed to me that the prisoners were expected to be transferred to other work when they 'got out' and that to me implied a similiar facility. They mentioned that the Empire was using them to keep costs down so having a similiar facility with much more security just doesn't fit right with how I feel they presented it.

My preferred pieces to fit into the puzzle are that the guy from 4 was released as intended, immediately got arrested (likely in a similiar scenario to Andor's arrest) got sent back and that kickstarted a riot on 2 when he told the story and then the story was picked up incorrectly on the other levels - i.e no one is getting out.
I just like that version better for my head canon - and leads into the idea that The Empire as a whole is merely a massive prison camp - as such there is no getting out other then taking down The Empire. 

But a lot of that is me merely squaring circles in my head - I didn't think the episodes delivered it well (which in no way should impact your enjoyment).

----------


## ecarden

> *Spoiler: I did consider that...*
> Show
> 
> 
> ...and it could be used as an explanation, but it seems that is me filling in the blanks with pieces that I don't think fit, it seemed to me that the prisoners were expected to be transferred to other work when they 'got out' and that to me implied a similiar facility. They mentioned that the Empire was using them to keep costs down so having a similiar facility with much more security just doesn't fit right with how I feel they presented it.
> 
> My preferred pieces to fit into the puzzle are that the guy from 4 was released as intended, immediately got arrested (likely in a similiar scenario to Andor's arrest) got sent back and that kickstarted a riot on 2 when he told the story and then the story was picked up incorrectly on the other levels - i.e no one is getting out.
> I just like that version better for my head canon - and leads into the idea that The Empire as a whole is merely a massive prison camp - as such there is no getting out other then taking down The Empire. 
> 
> But a lot of that is me merely squaring circles in my head - I didn't think the episodes delivered it well (which in no way should impact your enjoyment).


So, my thought was
*Spoiler: ambiguity*
Show


That it's unclear and that's deliberate. Either of your options is possible (note, my preferred alternative is neither of these, but that it was genuinely exactly what the doctor said, a mistake. The guy was supposed to be released, but was accidentally sent to another floor and the guards fried everyone to cover it up and now can't release anyone without news leaking out.

It wasn't a deliberate plan, just bureaucratic incompetence and callousness, enabled by the power given to them by the Empire. And the cruelty of it. Note, if they were either more open and willing to admit mistakes, or allowed contact with the outside world, then the whole thing could be corrected, it's only because they don't do either that the paranoia and fear they're trying to create turn toxic.

However, it seems clear to me that the ambiguity is intended? We don't know, because Andor can't know, because the Empire is keeping it a secret. Soon enough, I think the Empire will start looking into it and we'll learn more.

But, of course, if that ambiguity doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. De gustibus.

----------


## Maelstrom

Definately a bit of a slower burn episode (well, with a scene that is very much not so!),

*Spoiler: Espisode 11*
Show


But the scene between Luthen and Saw.  These two and their acting skills, backed up by fantastic writers, set designers, and the cinematographers -- it's just phenomenal all around.

And the scene with Bee...it's like if a dog could talk.  Makes me wonder, though if Maarva had noticed the people watching her and known that the only way out would be under a sheet (and the sickness, doctor visit, Sisters of Ferrix, all of it were not a plan...or she simply knocked off (ya never know with this show!)

Val...though.  I cannot get over how undisciplined and impulsive she is...she is the weakest link here and I'm sure we'll eventually see consequences.

Now, the scene with luthan and the 'Cantell-Class cruiser' (being based on Colin Cantwell's original concept art as seen here.  That was some great action with well thought out action/countermeasures (for the most part -- does Luthens ship have shields, cause if not, the TIE Pilots are awful shots as well, not even being able to hit an immobilized craft) -- also, why scramble a TIE bomber?.  The shots and lights over the planet..just gorgeous. 


So much more

----------


## Joran

New episode:

Do we know what Luthen and Kleya were talking about? What's the other piece?

Just to help me get my head around it, because I've been watching this series week by week and so may be forgetting things. Next week is the last episode, so here's where things stand.

*Spoiler*
Show


Cassian's sister: His search for her is the precipitating event. I'm doubtful we'll see her next episode, but we may get some more info.

Kreegyr: About to attack the power station; ISB knows about it. I wonder if we'll see the attack. Saw was successfully called off and won't be participating.

Ferrix: Bix still in custody, looks in really bad shape.
There will be a funeral in 2 days.
ISB agent in place. (Is Dedra coming herself?)
Cinta in place. (I don't think Luthen / Vel are coming?)
Syril is on his way.
Cassian and Melshi separate and I assume Cassian's coming.

Mon Mothma seems like she's acceding to the gangster's request to set up his son with her daughter.

Anything else I'm missing?

----------


## Thomas Cardew

> New episode:
> 
> Do we know what Luthen and Kleya were talking about? What's the other piece?
> 
> Just to help me get my head around it, because I've been watching this series week by week and so may be forgetting things. Next week is the last episode, so here's where things stand.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> ...


*Spoiler*
Show

Contextually the other piece is Andor. Luthen was asking about the 'other piece' ie the other loose end that can lead back to him. Kleya talks bout having 'buyers on site[?]' referring to Cinta being in place and probably loose cannon Vel going to see her. Luthen wants to go himself to [Speculative] eliminate or recruit Andor as a loose end leading back to him. I don't think Dedra is going herself. I'm not sure if Andor is going himself, it's stupid but possible since he doesn't seem to know about the massive manhunt for him. I suspect we'll see Luthen and Andor both go Ferrix in the next episode, all the pieces are being set up for a confrontation there.

*Spoiler: Speculation*
Show

 Some low grade predictions. Luthen gets seen / identified by Syril who leverages this into a position at the ISB or killed for it. ISB seems more likely with Kleya getting burned/killed. 
Alternatively, Andor ends up rescuing Luthen from Syril who dies convinced of his own righteousness. Either way, Luthen fully recruits Andor offering a way out of his current problems, Andor with nothing left to lose accepts and joins the rebellion proper. 
I expect Cinta or Vel to die, most likely Cinta. This would set up a season 2 plot where Vel agrees to a political/cover marriage to the gangster to (1) solve Mon Mothma's problem (2) obtain more resources for the rebellion (3) spare/rescue her niece from a bad situation.  
 

Side comment: Luthen's ship lightsabers are wild impractically and totally cool, Star Wars at its best and 1000% matching the original style/aesthetic. Although I seem to remember having seen the ship in generic promo material without realizing what it was and thinking it was going to be some sort of Sith or Dark Side users craft. The tractor beam countermeasures were cool and feasible, but no way they should have taken that long to charge. I realize it was completely for the drama so that's only a small quibble. The same effect could have been achieved by stretching out the hyperspace jump calculation time or needing to get clear for the jump. Also 3 'clicks'  assuming [km] is nothing in modern air fight range let alone futuristic space flight.

----------


## Peelee

> New episode:
> 
> Do we know what Luthen and Kleya were talking about? What's the other piece?
> 
> Just to help me get my head around it, because I've been watching this series week by week and so may be forgetting things. Next week is the last episode, so here's where things stand.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> ...


Well now you got me feeling all smart because I thought it was obvious but maybe it wasn't and I'm just cool like that.
*Spoiler*
Show

The piece is Cassian Andor. Luthen already mentioned being sloppy when he recruited Andor, and whats-his-face's attempted betrayal screwed things up - instead of Andor staying in the fold, he took his share and booked it before anyone else could stop him. They have no idea where he is, he's a loose end that can readily identify Luthen and Vel, and if he gets caught their whole enterprise collapses. Luthen wants to go look himself for Andor but with his agents already on planet looking for him they don't need him in person, as well as with the Imperials and ISB specifically being in force on Ferrix it's too hot. Luthen believes he can handle it, though, especially considering the importance of containing Cassian. 
And there's the conversation fully explained. 



ETA: The conversation in question. It should make perfect sense once you consider that context above.
*Spoiler: Spy stuff!* 
Show


Luthen: I'm most curious about the other piece.
Kleya: Your presence would complicate the bidding at this point. 
L: We need that piece. We lose that and we'll have to close up shop. 
K: It's a crowded market.
L: You need to think of the consequences of losing that piece to another collector.
K: There's nothing more you can do.
L: That's never true. 

That last line also says a lot about the lengths he's willing to go to.

----------


## PontificatusRex

Just popping in to say that Luthan currently has my vote as the most badass non-Jedi in the SWU.

----------


## Mastikator

When I watched the first episode I was expecting another Obi Wan and almost didn't watch the second. My spouse convinced me to watch the second episode and it was good. We waited a bit to watch the third. By the 4th I was hooked.
Now having watched up to 11 I'm thinking this is the best Star Wars show so far with Mandalorian as a close second.

----------


## Joran

Thanks for all the answers about Luthen and Kleya's conversation.

Second question about Mon Mothma.

*Spoiler: Money*
Show



So, Mon Mothma's dilemma is that she has a hole in her family accounts. She's been pulling money from her trust to support the Rebellion, hiding it as charitable giving, but auditors are about to examine her books and discover money missing, so she needs to find a funding source to fill that hole.

The only option at the moment from her banker is the gangster. Isn't Luthen sitting on a ridiculous sum of money from the Aldhani raid and doesn't Vel know about that money?

Why does she not simply ask Luthen to borrow the money to fill the hole. Having a senator not go to jail that knows who he is seems like something he would want to avoid.

Then after the auditors are done, she can go through her banker and discreetly move more money.

I must be missing something.

----------


## Maelstrom

> Thanks for all the answers about Luthen and Kleya's conversation.
> 
> Second question about Mon Mothma.
> 
> *Spoiler: Money*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mon does not know, for sure, that Luthen was behind that action, nor does she know Val was involved

----------


## Peelee

> Thanks for all the answers about Luthen and Kleya's conversation.
> 
> Second question about Mon Mothma.
> 
> *Spoiler: Money*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Spoiler: Don't do crime. Plans like that are how people get caught. Alsocrimeisbad*
Show

She needs clean money. The bank heist money is just money coming in from nowhere, because it was stolen from an Imperial base (assuming he even has it anymore and hasn't distributed it all already). Davo can supply her with laundered, "clean" money. The Imps can trace it all they want and find no issues to hang Mon Mothma or Davo on. That's not the case with the stolen loot from Aldhani. 




> Mon does not know, for sure, that Luthen was behind that action


Sure she does.

----------


## Maelstrom

> Sure she does.


Doh, you're right..was thinking of another...but yeah, even though it was never said, it was clear

As for the needed resource she's looking to get:
*Spoiler*
Show

I'm not sure that is the reason either.  I'm seeing it as if they want to basically offset that 400k withdrawal with a deposit that does not have a source; like they 400k was taken out, but nothing was ever done with it, and just put back in.  Cash would be perfect for that, not a tracked loan or transfer from somewhere that would lead to question why the money was coming from that source or why 400k was now on the wrong side of the ledger

I am thinking that it has to do more with honour (and it being blood money) and not wanting to be tangentially responsible for all the bad things that came from the taking of that cash.   She's a bit of a straight arrow when it comes to that.  Given her situation though, she's not going to have many choices to do this the right way

----------


## Peelee

> As for the needed resource she's looking to get:
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I'm not sure that is the reason either.  I'm seeing it as if they want to basically offset that 400k withdrawal with a deposit that does not have a source; like they 400k was taken out, but nothing was ever done with it, and just put back in.  Cash would be perfect for that, not a tracked loan or transfer from somewhere that would lead to question why the money was coming from that source or why 400k was now on the wrong side of the ledger


*Spoiler: The source*
Show

Taking out 400,000 in cash and replacing it later is suspicious as all hell. There'd be questions about why she did it and what the money was doing until it got re-deposited, which are questions she can't answer. Davo provides answers to any such questions, along with the money, and can provide the receipts of needed.





> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I am thinking that it has to do more with honour (and it being blood money) and not wanting to be tangentially responsible for all the bad things that came from the taking of that cash.   She's a bit of a straight arrow when it comes to that.  Given her situation though, she's not going to have many choices to do this the right way


*Spoiler: Blood money* 
Show

You think Davo's money isn't blood money? He's no moral high ground, and he also is wanting Mon Mothma to sell her daughter to procure his services. There is no "right way" available to her. She is severely morally compromised already, and taking some Aldhani money isn't going to make things any worse. If you want to talk about blood money, her arms are already red and dripping with Davo's assistance. She needs an explanation for everything, not just a simple ledger. Again, just taking the quick and easy kludge to prop up a case is how criminals get caught. Give it a shake and the whole thing comes crashing down. She needs stability, something that can weather a storm of scrutiny and still be standing when it's all done.

----------


## runeghost

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Contextually the other piece is Andor. Luthen was asking about the 'other piece' ie the other loose end that can lead back to him. Kleya talks bout having 'buyers on site[?]' referring to Cinta being in place and probably loose cannon Vel going to see her. Luthen wants to go himself to [Speculative] eliminate or recruit Andor as a loose end leading back to him. I don't think Dedra is going herself. I'm not sure if Andor is going himself, it's stupid but possible since he doesn't seem to know about the massive manhunt for him. I suspect we'll see Luthen and Andor both go Ferrix in the next episode, all the pieces are being set up for a confrontation there.
> 
> *Spoiler: Speculation*
> Show
> 
>  Some low grade predictions. Luthen gets seen / identified by Syril who leverages this into a position at the ISB or killed for it. ISB seems more likely with Kleya getting burned/killed. 
> ...


*Spoiler: Countermeasures*
Show

My thought was that the charge time was not just for the tractor-beam killers, but for all his weapon systems. 

The Fondor's supposed to be a light, common ship. Its weapons are hidden, and presumably not kept "ready for action" (which probably helps keep them hidden from scans by suspicious authority figures). The "charge time" is how long it takes to "warm them up", "charge their capacitors", etc. 

No idea if that was the intended interpretation, but that's what it seemed like to me. Also, there were some blue sparky-things as the projectiles hit the dish. Idk if that's supposed to be the dish shorting under damage, or some sort of ion-cannon-like effect, which would in turn imply that the projectiles needed to be "charged up" to deliver it.

----------


## PontificatusRex

There's a great article about why Andor is the best Star Wars thing to come out in years and years (and one of the best TV series of 2022) in the Guardian HERE.

----------


## Maelstrom

Just now going into the 12th episode, but I did want to note that I've stopped skipping by the intro as each week, while the basic theme never changes, each episode it grows and evolves and gives a bit of on insight to each chapter.  This week's intro gave me goosebumps ;)

EDIT:  OK, all done with watching the first time and really really disappointed.   Disappointed that I'm going to have to wait a year or more to see more of this absolute monster of a show!   

I'm going to continue digesting a bit before I come back and really comment, but one thing (and I was so wrong with back a few episodes where I posted we'll probably never know ;) )  BE SURE TO WATCH AFTER THE CREDITS --- You'll be rewarded for all of those sleepless nights of wondering what the heck those were ;)

----------


## runeghost

I got up early to watch the season finale before work, so I wouldn't spend all day anticipating anx worrying about spoilers.

Definitely worth it. I'll share thoughts later, but for nkw I'll just say that this is a magnificent piece of television.

Mando Season One was a lot of fun and great Star Wars and TV,. Andor is a masterpiece.

----------


## Peelee

> I got up early to watch the season finale before work, so I wouldn't spend all day anticipating anx worrying about spoilers.


I do the same thing with the whole show (and Mandalorian. And Kenobi. Basically every Star War show), but less to avoid spoilers and more so I can discuss with friends as soon as they ready, or on here. I been ready to talk about this since 6am.

Anyway, it was really good and would have been a perfectly satisfying conclusion to the season if not for one pretty major hanging chad.
*Spoiler*
Show

They _still_ haven't showed us anything about the Weights and Gauges department! Imean really, it's just plain not fair for thr Bureau of Standards to tease us like this.

----------


## Palanan

Havent had a chance to watch todays episode yet, but I noticed that the first episode of the series is apparently broadcasting on ABC tonight.

Will the entire series be shown on ABC?  Cant recall any other Disney+ series jumping to broadcast TV.

----------


## Peelee

> Havent had a chance to watch todays episode yet, but I noticed that the first episode of the series is apparently broadcasting on ABC tonight.
> 
> Will the entire series be shown on ABC?  Cant recall any other Disney+ series jumping to broadcast TV.


I believe so. Also FX and Hulu.

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> Havent had a chance to watch todays episode yet, but I noticed that the first episode of the series is apparently broadcasting on ABC tonight.
> 
> Will the entire series be shown on ABC?  Cant recall any other Disney+ series jumping to broadcast TV.


Disney has noted that Andor is a hit with viewers but people simply arent giving it a chance.
So theyre airing a few episodes where everyone can see it.

----------


## Palanan

Just finished the finale.  Gripping and superb.


*Spoiler*
Show

As always, Fiona Shaw stole the show.  And the music of the dirge was unexpectedly powerful.

The convergence of nearly every major character on Rix Road had a cinematic logic to it, but Im not quite sure what Syril and his sarge were doing there.  Did Syril really make the journey just to be ready to rescue the ISB officer?  Or was he planning to collar Andor himself?

Either way, Im surprised she didnt kill him for having witnessed her in a state of less than total control.  I was halfway expecting that; but maybe now she has actual feelings to wrestle with.  

(Season Two: Twisted Petty Tyrants in Love.)

And I agree with runeghost and Maelstrom that this will take some musing and digesting before sharing any more detailed thoughts.  Hopefully the digesting will take less than a thousand years.


*Spoiler: Stinger*
Show

Slightly disappointed at the reveal that they were building parts of the Death Star.  Doesnt the Empire have any other sinister weapons projects?  

And havent we seen the dish-assembly process before, but with more star destroyers and Moff Tarkin?  Feels like too much of a contrived oh-cool moment.

----------


## Peelee

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Or was he planning to collar Andor himself?


Yes. 



> *Spoiler: Stinger*
> Show
> 
> Slightly disappointed at the reveal that they were building parts of the Death Star.  Doesnt the Empire have any other sinister weapons projects?  
> 
> And havent we seen the dish-assembly process before, but with more star destroyers and Moff Tarkin?  Feels like too much of a contrived oh-cool moment.


*Spoiler*
Show

I was also hoping for not-the-Death-Star and that it was a component in walker footpads or TIE wing connector assemblies or something, but I've Gilroy said it was important I figured it was defo Death Star. And while I dislike it for small-universe-syndrome, it does make thematic sense that Andor was building the tool of his own destruction.... But yeah, why couldn't it have been TIE fighter components?

Also, here the suoermaser dish assembly is still being consteuxted. In Rogue 1 it was fully constructed and just being assembled with the station as the final part.

----------


## Palanan

I am literally having to catch my breath after watching the finale.  

Right now I cant think of a better show in recent years.  Not just Disney+, since that would be a painfully low bar, but any show on any channel or platform.

----------


## Peelee

> I am literally having to catch my breath after watching the finale.  
> 
> Right now I cant think of a better show in recent years.  Not just Disney+, since that would be a painfully low bar, but any show on any channel or platform.


Might I recommend Better Call Saul?

----------


## Joran

> *Spoiler: Don't do crime. Plans like that are how people get caught. Alsocrimeisbad*
> Show
> 
> She needs clean money. The bank heist money is just money coming in from nowhere, because it was stolen from an Imperial base (assuming he even has it anymore and hasn't distributed it all already). Davo can supply her with laundered, "clean" money. The Imps can trace it all they want and find no issues to hang Mon Mothma or Davo on. That's not the case with the stolen loot from Aldhani.


*Spoiler: Last episode*
Show


Indeed. So she needed both the money and a plausible explanation / source for the money.

Absolute masterstroke by Mon. She gets the money from Davo Sculdun, an unsavory character, but explains it as her husband trying to hide his gambling losses. So, she shouldn't have much trouble with the Imperial auditors.

However, her family and home life on the other hand...

----------


## Thomas Cardew

> Yes. 
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I was also hoping for not-the-Death-Star and that it was a component in walker footpads or TIE wing connector assemblies or something, but I've Gilroy said it was important I figured it was defo Death Star. And while I dislike it for small-universe-syndrome, it does make thematic sense that Andor was building the tool of his own destruction.... But yeah, why couldn't it have been TIE fighter components?
> 
> Also, here the suoermaser dish assembly is still being consteuxted. In Rogue 1 it was fully constructed and just being assembled with the station as the final part.


*Spoiler*
Show

So I agree entirely but I want to further grouse about it being a POST CREDIT scene. You get no points for being thematic if it's NOT actually included in the actual SHOW were the themes are SUPPOSED to be. I didn't even realize there was a scene until someone mentioned it here and then I went to watch it. 

That's a very complete looking Death Star, super maser excepted. Doesn't really look like there's 5 years of work left to get it functioning, especially compared to the RotJ incomplete but fully functional battle station.

----------


## Maelstrom

Is it just me or at about 23 minutes in, where the flute players are warming up, it sounds like the flute players are warming up with the Original Trilogy theme (but are cut off before much too much of the melody develops)?

----------


## Peelee

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> So I agree entirely but I want to further grouse about it being a POST CREDIT scene. You get no points for being thematic if it's NOT actually included in the actual SHOW were the themes are SUPPOSED to be. I didn't even realize there was a scene until someone mentioned it here and then I went to watch it. 
> 
> That's a very complete looking Death Star, super maser excepted. Doesn't really look like there's 5 years of work left to get it functioning, especially compared to the RotJ incomplete but fully functional battle station.


Actually that I like.
*Spoiler*
Show

It has no actual bearing on the plot whatsoever and is nothing more than a small Easter Egg of knowledge for the audience. That's perfect for a post-credit scene. Those who niss it lose out on virtually nothing and it is wholly irrelevant to the story. 

Also, devils advocate, the second Death Star being functional was part of a specific and deliberate trap. It wasn't supposed to be and surprised the attackers completely.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Maelstrom*
> _Is it just me or at about 23 minutes in...._


*Spoiler*
Show

Went back and watched that section and it didnt seem like it to mejust instruments warming up.

That would be a bit too blatantly meta for the scene.  It works in something like Amazing Spider-Man, when his ringtone is the old Spidey theme, but not for the sombre tone and rising tension of the funeral march.

----------


## Spacewolf

*Spoiler: Latest episode.* 
Show

A decent ending though I did find it mildly funny that I've seen less restraint from police in the real world than the evil empire during protests. Though suppose that's about as far as I can go into that. 

For the good; the music particularly the in universe parts, both the speeches both from the recording from naïve kid and the mother character, Mon Mothmas parts. the riot scene. Even though I haven't gone into as much detail as the stuff below this covers the majority of the episode. 

The average; The rebel character stabbing the ISB agent I'd have actually found it more interesting the other way I don't really find this character killing a low level ISB agent worth as much time as it was given. Meanwhile the reverse could actually create some good character moments. 

The stuff I didn't like; why does the antiques dealer feel the need to go everywhere, I could understand it when meeting Saul he needed that personal touch but for this mission it's just insane. He's standing in full view of an ISB outpost, if they check the tapes after to start identifying people he's going to stand out like a sore thumb. So far the ISB has been pretty awful at facial recognition tech (See Andor being able to be sent to a prison facility without his arrest warrant showing up) so it almost seems like it's not a thing until they have full holographic facial scans of people in some scenes so they obviously do. 
Death Star post credits scene it was pretty obvious what those things where going to end up getting used for but I'd have preferred them to be attached to something that could play a part in this series which we know it doesn't since they don't know about it until Rogue One. 
Andor, still by far the weakest part of the series. The show seems to recognise this though.

----------


## Peelee

> naïve kid


I would say he's the farthest from naive of any character in the Star Wars universe to date. 



> *Spoiler: Latest episode.* 
> Show
> 
> .The stuff I didn't like; why does the antiques dealer feel the need to go everywhere, I could understand it when meeting Saul he needed that personal touch but for this mission it's just insane.


*Spoiler: He says why at the end of episode 11.*
Show

If the Empire catches Andor then he loses everything. It's absolutely vital to contain him and its been months at this point. They don't know Andor has been on prison. All they know is he disappeared like a ghost and this is so far the only lead they've had and so far as they can tell it's the only lead they will _ever_ have. It's too important to let skip through and he's paranoid they'll miss him

Kleida tells him they already have operatives there for him. She tells him the Empire is on the ground en force. She tells him it's too risky. And he just keeps saying it's too important to not go. 

You can argue about whether he was right or not, but we know exactly why he went there.
Also I disagree about sticking out like a sore thumb.

----------


## ecarden

> *Spoiler: Latest episode.* 
> Show
> 
>  So far the ISB has been pretty awful at facial recognition tech (See Andor being able to be sent to a prison facility without his arrest warrant showing up) so it almost seems like it's not a thing until they have full holographic facial scans of people in some scenes so they obviously do.


I mean, I'm a bit sympathetic, but it is absolutely clear that this technology either just doesn't exist, or doesn't work at all in Star Wars. Yes, people take photos of stuff and then use that to make up bounties, they don't run it through some database to instantly find the guy (except for the Mandalorian with its weird tracking fobs that then disappear from the universe). Whether its due to sheer size, or tech limitations is unclear, but it's just not a thing.

Really enjoyed that episode and the bit about control being an illusion is proven pretty clearly for both Dedra and Luthen. Massively excited for season 2, which is coming out in...2024, probably. Argh!

----------


## Spacewolf

> I would say he's the farthest from naive of any character in the Star Wars universe to date. 
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: He says why at the end of episode 11.*
> Show
> 
> If the Empire catches Andor then he loses everything. It's absolutely vital to contain him and its been months at this point. They don't know Andor has been on prison. All they know is he disappeared like a ghost and this is so far the only lead they've had and so far as they can tell it's the only lead they will _ever_ have. It's too important to let skip through and he's paranoid they'll miss him
> 
> Kleida tells him they already have operatives there for him. She tells him the Empire is on the ground en force. She tells him it's too risky. And he just keeps saying it's too important to not go. 
> ...


*Spoiler: Sore thumb meaning*
Show

By sore thumb I mean they are going to run the face of everyone in the crowd and it's going to be local, local, local, local, coruscant art dealer with no reason to be on the planet and is being regularly visited by member of Mothma clan.  You know what he could do to completely remove that issue and for it to make more sense. Wear a mask. My point wasn't that he was there more that he was taking zero precautions except occasionally having his hood up.

I'd disagree about him being naive but that was just a way for me to describe him since I'm awful with names.





> I mean, I'm a bit sympathetic, but it is absolutely clear that this technology either just doesn't exist, or doesn't work at all in Star Wars. Yes, people take photos of stuff and then use that to make up bounties, they don't run it through some database to instantly find the guy (except for the Mandalorian with its weird tracking fobs that then disappear from the universe). Whether its due to sheer size, or tech limitations is unclear, but it's just not a thing.
> 
> Really enjoyed that episode and the bit about control being an illusion is proven pretty clearly for both Dedra and Luthen. Massively excited for season 2, which is coming out in...2024, probably. Argh!


Another point for the empire being less dystopian than modern reality then, I do think that's something I'd like to see abit more of in this show to be honest the everyday oppression going on in the empire they've touched on it afew times but it'd be interesting to see more. I've been playing shipbreaker recently and can't help but finding alot of the commentary in that preferable to modern day.

----------


## PontificatusRex

Well, awesome as expected. Regarding the post credits scene (which I didn't even catch, just reading about it here):

*Spoiler*
Show

I actually like the Death Star connection and I think it's more thematically tied in than just being an Easter egg. The Death Star was a top secret project, it makes sense that crucial parts were being made in a secret prison factory that no one ever gets out of. Tie fighter and ATAT parts can be made at any old factory. It's said outright in Last Jedi that both the Empire and Rebellion buy their hardware from private contractors - though I think that was kinda stupid, really.

Also, I really like the implication the revolt in the prison caused delay in the construction of the Death Star. Given the razor-thin timing of the Rebellion's destruction of the Death Star, it's not hard to imagine that a few weeks difference in timing would have meant the Empire's victory. That fits really well into the theme of small, diffuse acts of resistance being as important the big splashy heroic adventures of the movies.

----------


## ecarden

> Another point for the empire being less dystopian than modern reality then, I do think that's something I'd like to see abit more of in this show to be honest the everyday oppression going on in the empire they've touched on it afew times but it'd be interesting to see more. I've been playing shipbreaker recently and can't help but finding alot of the commentary in that preferable to modern day.


We aren't discussing modern reality. In this universe it's clear that no, they aren't recording everything and running it through facial recognition. That's not a thing that happens, or is possible in Star Wars.

----------


## Peelee

> I mean, I'm a bit sympathetic, but it is absolutely clear that this technology either just doesn't exist, or doesn't work at all in Star Wars. Yes, people take photos of stuff and then use that to make up bounties, they don't run it through some database to instantly find the guy (except for the Mandalorian with its weird tracking fobs that then disappear from the universe). Whether its due to sheer size, or tech limitations is unclear, but it's just not a thing.
> 
> Really enjoyed that episode and the bit about control being an illusion is proven pretty clearly for both Dedra and Luthen. Massively excited for season 2, which is coming out in...2024, probably. Argh!


Mandalorian introduced a few things that it didn't need to and that the rest of the universe needs to ignore to keep making sense. Tracking fobs just about top that list. 



> *Spoiler: Sore thumb meaning*
> Show
> 
> By sore thumb I mean they are going to run the face of everyone in the crowd and it's going to be local, local, local, local, coruscant art dealer with no reason to be on the planet and is being regularly visited by member of Mothma clan.  You know what he could do to completely remove that issue and for it to make more sense. Wear a mask. My point wasn't that he was there more that he was taking zero precautions except occasionally having his hood up.
> 
> I'd disagree about him being naive but that was just a way for me to describe him since I'm awful with names.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Empire doesn't even scan the faces of people in their own small base. Mandalorian had a facial scan be a plot point, and the scan was able to conclude the grand totality of "this is a human". 

Until it comes up as an established plot point, there's no reason to suspect facial recog ition scanning will happen. Remember, this is the same universe where the Death Star plans were on stolen data tape. It's a crazy mixmesh of futuristic and 70s tech and I love it. 



> Well, awesome as expected. Regarding the post credits scene (which I didn't even catch, just reading about it here):
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I actually like the Death Star connection and I think it's more thematically tied in than just being an Easter egg. The Death Star was a top secret project, it makes sense that crucial parts were being made in a secret prison factory that no one ever gets out of. Tie fighter and ATAT parts can be made at any old factory. It's said outright in Last Jedi that both the Empire and Rebellion buy their hardware from private contractors - though I think that was kinda stupid, really.
> 
> Also, I really like the implication the revolt in the prison caused delay in the construction of the Death Star. Given the razor-thin timing of the Rebellion's destruction of the Death Star, it's not hard to imagine that a few weeks difference in timing would have meant the Empire's victory. That fits really well into the theme of small, diffuse acts of resistance being as important the big splashy heroic adventures of the movies.


*Spoiler: Except* 
Show

People presumably were getting out before PORD. That's what made the sentences crazy long and reconfigured, and before then, the prisoners were still making those parts. Andor got arrested right as that started and the prisoners sure didn't act like it was a new experience for them. And it's also significantly more believable for the reshuffle prisoner mixup to occur when dealing with brand new implementation of the issue than that it just happened to occur as Andor got there.


And even all that aside, that specific part is one tiny facet in a major machine. What's to spill regarding the secret? Again, big Empire, galaxy spanning, it's not like it'd be out of the ordinary for them to need a lot of parts for its major military to keep running. And that's assuming it was even for a military machine, it could jsut as well have been for civilian construction.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *PontificatusRex*
> _It's said outright in Last Jedi that both the Empire and Rebellion buy their hardware from private contractors._


In Last Jedi it's the First Order and the Resistance.  Different time period, different paradigm.

----------


## Peelee

> In Last Jedi it's the First Order and the Resistance.  Different time period, different paradigm.


TIEs are made by Seinar Fleet Systems, X-Wings are Incom, it's not a paradigm shift.

----------


## runeghost

> Actually that I like.
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> It has no actual bearing on the plot whatsoever and is nothing more than a small Easter Egg of knowledge for the audience. That's perfect for a post-credit scene. Those who niss it lose out on virtually nothing and it is wholly irrelevant to the story. 
> 
> Also, devils advocate, the second Death Star being functional was part of a specific and deliberate trap. It wasn't supposed to be and surprised the attackers completely.


*Spoiler: for RotJ...*
Show


In the movie, the Emperor says it's "fully armed and operational", and the super-laser blasts easily one-shot single capital ships.

In the novelization, my recollection is that the Death Star II's commander, Moff Jerjerrod, is planning to destroy the forest moon as  final act.of destruction (once he becomes convinced the attack will suceed), implying it truly is completely operational.

Personally, I've never been 100% sure if the Death Star II was completely finished for all practical purposes (including planetbusting), but left looking unfinished, or if it was more a case of "all the guns are working and we've got enough power to one-shot captial ships" for the ambush,  but not truly 100% complete (maybe unable to move, for example).

Post-Rogue-One, it would make sense if the Death Star II were firing single-generator shots, but one screen it was clearly firing the full "cluster".

Not really a big deal, but fun to speculate about.

----------


## Palanan

Thing of beauty:







It's impressive how well it lends itself to this approach.

----------


## Millstone85

> Thing of beauty:


It truly is! I love that kind of nostalgic parody.

----------


## Peelee

Oh shoot are we sharing amazing YouTube cuts of Andor?
*Spoiler: Nemik was one of the best characters, by far. and I LOVE so many of the characters.* 
Show

----------


## PontificatusRex

> It truly is! I love that kind of nostalgic parody.


Me too! Great job on this one, it's totally a cross between the openings of Logan's Run and Starsky & Hutch.

----------


## PontificatusRex

Since you can only do one video per post:

----------


## Millstone85

Wait, what?!

You are telling me that in the original American version, the opening for _Starsky & Hutch
_ does not have lyrics?!

How am I supposed to know that they ♬ _gagnent toujours à la fin_ ♬ then?  :Small Big Grin: 

Mind blown.

----------


## dehro

Officer Meero and her fanboy Syril are going to do some freaky things in the bedroom, once they finally get it on.
Or am I the only one who got that vibe from them?

----------


## PontificatusRex

> Officer Meero and her fanboy Syril are going to do some freaky things in the bedroom, once they finally get it on.
> Or am I the only one who got that vibe from them?


Not the vibe I got. I don't think Meero would ever make herself vulnerable by letting someone get that close to her, emotionally or otherwise. And Syril would be quite happy being Minion #1, I'm sure.

I do think it's interesting how Syril's story is playing out. He can still easily be cast as the Hero of his own story without any major moral quandries, aside from who he's working for, but he really does seem to honestly believe the Imperials are the Good Guys. Classic cop film, in fact - he starts off wanting to solve two murders ignored by his corrupt boss, investigates on his own but is told to stay away from the case by the higher powers. He can't shake it though, so he goes rogue and follows up on a lead, only to end up saving the life of the officer who told him to stay away. By the numbers plot really, just missing the final act where he catches the bad guy.

I wonder how Syril would react if he knew how Bix had been tortured - that would really be what defined his character, I think. Misguided idealist or fascist toadie?

Also, I now want someone with better video editing skills than I to make a 70's cop tv show trailer with Syril as the protagonist.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Officer Meero and her fanboy Syril are going to do some freaky things in the bedroom, once they finally get it on.
> Or am I the only one who got that vibe from them?


I hope not. I was mentally chanting "please don't kiss, please don't kiss" for a moment during the finale.

----------


## Millstone85

> I do think it's interesting how Syril's story is playing out. He can still easily be cast as the Hero of his own story without any major moral quandries, aside from who he's working for, but he really does seem to honestly believe the Imperials are the Good Guys. Classic cop film, in fact - he starts off wanting to solve two murders ignored by his corrupt boss, investigates on his own but is told to stay away from the case by the higher powers. He can't shake it though, so he goes rogue and follows up on a lead, only to end up saving the life of the officer who told him to stay away. By the numbers plot really, just missing the final act where he catches the bad guy.


In an alternate universe, he could be Ace Karn. What a guy!

Really, Syril makes me think of Arnold Rimmer from _Red Dwarf_. He clearly has socializing and self-worth issues. He also wants to fit within a disciplined environment but can't help improving the code, notably by customizing his uniform (which beats an overcomplicated salute, ha ha).




> Not the vibe I got. I don't think Meero would ever make herself vulnerable by letting someone get that close to her, emotionally or otherwise.


If so, she should have had him arrested when he stalked her on Coruscant.

And now she just experienced extreme vulnerability with a lot of people getting awfully close to her, what with her almost getting lynched. Then Syril saved her and she had trouble giving a simple thank you.

I think Dedra Meero is now very much under Syril Karn's influence, as surprising as that might be.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> And now she just experienced extreme vulnerability with a lot of people getting awfully close to her, what with her almost getting lynched. Then Syril saved her and she had trouble giving a simple thank you.
> 
> I think Dedra Meero is now very much under Syril Karn's influence, as surprising as that might be.


One thing that bothers me is... how did he save her? There's a whole group of like 5 people who grab her and start dragging her away to who knows where. Then Syril comes up from behind, sticks a gun in her back and leads her into a building. Where did the other people go??? He somehow takes charge of her without saying a word to anyone and without pointing his weapon at anyone except the person he's trying to save. And the people who have her just vanish?

And it's not like even she knew he was friendly until she turned around. She was about to turn and hit him with a hunk of metal before she saw who it was. Like maybe I blinked at a crucial moment, but... huh?  :Small Confused:

----------


## PontificatusRex

> One thing that bothers me is... how did he save her? There's a whole group of like 5 people who grab her and start dragging her away to who knows where. Then Syril comes up from behind, sticks a gun in her back and leads her into a building. Where did the other people go??? He somehow takes charge of her without saying a word to anyone and without pointing his weapon at anyone except the person he's trying to save. And the people who have her just vanish?
> 
> And it's not like even she knew he was friendly until she turned around. She was about to turn and hit him with a hunk of metal before she saw who it was. Like maybe I blinked at a crucial moment, but... huh?


I think the idea is that the crowd thought the same thing she thought and we viewers thought - here's a guy marching her off with a gun at her back and he's going to take her someplace out of view of the other Imperials to execute her, so they let him. He bluffed them. Pretty quick thinking on his part, really.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> I think the idea is that the crowd thought the same thing she thought and we viewers thought - here's a guy marching her off with a gun at her back and he's going to take her someplace out of view of the other Imperials to execute her, so they let him. He bluffed them. Pretty quick thinking on his part, really.


I suppose so, it just wasn't really communicated. We have to assume that's what happened.

----------


## Peelee

> I suppose so, it just wasn't really communicated. We have to assume that's what happened.


My friends and I all got that pretty instanty while watching it. He clearly acts like he's going to be lynching her. She acts like it too, she's literally quivering with fear and shock when she realizes she's safe. Within my friend group, at the very least, it was communicated plenty fine.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> My friends and I all got that pretty instanty while watching it. He clearly acts like he's going to be lynching her. She acts like it too, she's literally quivering with fear and shock when she realizes she's safe. Within my friend group, at the very least, it was communicated plenty fine.


No, I understand that part. What confuses me is why several other people just left her alone with him when they're literally a rioting mob. The scene of the two of them alone was great, it's the transition that they just completely skipped over.

Maybe I should watch it again to see if I missed something...

----------


## Millstone85

> No, I understand that part. What confuses me is why several other people just left her alone with him when they're literally a rioting mob. The scene of the two of them alone was great, it's the transition that they just completely skipped over.
> 
> Maybe I should watch it again to see if I missed something...


FWIW, I had the same experience with this scene. Very sudden transition.

----------


## Fyraltari

Aaaaaaand I'm just done binging this show.

Where has this level of competency been this whole time?

More importantly, I have a love-hate relationship with Syril's clip-on tie.

----------


## Peelee

> Aaaaaaand I'm just done binging this show.


HUZZAH!

Also, it's never really occurred to me to ask this but because the quality of this one is so far ahead of the rest, do you watch it in French or with the original English dialogue?

Also, you caught the post credit scene on the finale, yes?

----------


## Fyraltari

> Also, it's never really occurred to me to ask this but because the quality of this one is so far ahead of the rest, do you watch it in French or with the original English dialogue?


Live-action? Subs all the way. Animation? Negotiable.




> Also, you caught the post credit scene on the finale, yes?


Now, yes.
*Spoiler*
Show

Funny, when we were told that the inmates are just transferred elsewhere upon release, I thought "Must be some place where there's not even the pretense of getting out, otherwise this makes no sense. Something secret probably, maybe even the Death Star's worksite.

Closer than I thought!

A bit bummed these weren't K-line droids parts, though.

----------


## Mechalich

With regard to 'level of competency' its not really fair to compare Andor to the rest, since it's a massive, more-than-the-sum-of-its-parts fusion that worked incredibly well in ways that are no easily replicable. Competency can net a 'good' or 'solid' show - like Mandalorian - but there's no formula for greatness. 

Andor is a masterful political thriller written and directed by a master of thrillers, it got fantastic performances from a bunch of lesser known and/or character actors, nailed the cameos, and the grounded nature of the story kept the effects from becoming a major burden on the show (a huge benefit in this time of VFX strain). It's the rare piece of 'genre fiction' that's being treated as a great show by mainstream critics and will receive serious awards consideration. I'd expect multiple Emmy nominations and decent chances at a win for either Andy Serkis (as supporting actor) or Tony Gilroy (as a writer). 

It's not reasonable to expect a show to be this good, because so few shows are. It's a bar too high to consistently clear.

----------


## Palanan

Problem is, many of the recent Disney+ shows have been technically competent in terms of costume, set design, and effects, while never managing a coherent or engaging story.  Book of Bobalorian and She-Hulk are glaring examples.  Each had one or two good episodes, but the rest were mediocre or downright embarrassing, and they never came together in a story to speak of.  Kenobi was almost as bad, and what Ive seen of Willow has been a laughable disaster.

In just about every case this is due to concept and writing.  Most episodes of She-Hulk felt like a second draft was thrown in front of the actors without anyone bothering to ask if they actually lined up with each other.  Bobalorian felt like it just sputtered out and pulled in Mando to fill in the episodes they couldnt think of anything for.  And the writing for Willow is pure steaming rubbish, full stop.

The question isnt why more shows arent as outstanding as Andor; the real question is why most of their shows are barely passable by their own modest standards.  From what I can tell it comes down to flawed creative vision and extremely poor writingfurther hampered in Willows case with poor direction and worse acting almost across the board.

----------


## Mechalich

> Problem is, many of the recent Disney+ shows have been technically competent in terms of costume, set design, and effects, while never managing a coherent or engaging story.  Book of Bobalorian and She-Hulk are glaring examples.  Each had one or two good episodes, but the rest were mediocre or downright embarrassing, and they never came together in a story to speak of.  Kenobi was almost as bad, and what Ive seen of Willow has been a laughable disaster.
> 
> In just about every case this is due to concept and writing.  Most episodes of She-Hulk felt like a second draft was thrown in front of the actors without anyone bothering to ask if they actually lined up with each other.  Bobalorian felt like it just sputtered out and pulled in Mando to fill in the episodes they couldnt think of anything for.  And the writing for Willow is pure steaming rubbish, full stop.
> 
> The question isnt why more shows arent as outstanding as Andor; the real question is why most of their shows are barely passable by their own modest standards.  From what I can tell it comes down to flawed creative vision and extremely poor writingfurther hampered in Willows case with poor direction and worse acting almost across the board.


I think there are three intertwined factors regarding this: structural, economic, and franchise-based. First, structural issues. These shows tend to be all 'limited series' which means that they are pre-approved by the studio and shot all in one go in an intense period of shooting like a film. There's no pilot episode nor is there any chance for writers to correct after the initial six episode run for later in the season or anything like that. So if a show doesn't work there's no way to tell until after the whole show has happened. This ties to the economic factor - Disney feels massively pressured to produce lots of content, and to distinguish itself from Netflix it wants to produce high-production value content since Netflix has flooded the zone with cheap genre fiction. This has pushed them to make a lot of shows that probably didn't need to be made (with Star Wars specifically there's also pressure to do certain projects now while the relevant actors still can do them at all). And then there's the franchise issue that these shows are very noticeable and tend to be judged harshly even when they are simply very average. Book of Boba Fett is a mess, but by the standards of modern genre fiction on TV it's _extremely average_, but fans (and critics) react far more strongly to shows tied to major franchises than random shows that just happen to be meh and end up buried in the middle of everyone's Netflix suggestions.

Disney really, really, needs to slow down, especially with Star Wars and Marvel. This has been a problem for some time, at least as far back as Rise of Skywalker, which was edited in a heinous rush and absolutely suffers for it (not saying that a few extra months in post could have made it good, but they could have made it significantly less bad). They need to spend more time refining concepts before they push ahead with production and there's certain concepts they just shouldn't do. Also, in the Star Wars space specifically, they need to fight the Empire more, and muck about other places in the galaxy less. In Star Wars, the Empire makes everything better.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Mechalich*
> _So if a show doesn't work there's no way to tell until after the whole show has happened._


Not necessarily.  You dont need to see bad dialogue on screen before you can realize its bad dialogue; thats obvious on the page.  You also dont need to wait until the episodes are aired to recognize theyre a sloppy, disconnected jumble; thats also right there on the page.  

And for episodes of a show that pulls in the main character of a completely different showyup, right there on the page.  These arent issues that only become apparent in the rushes; these have been there from the start.  




> Originally Posted by *Mechalich*
> _Book of Boba Fett is a mess, but by the standards of modern genre fiction on TV it's_ extremely average.


Book of Bobalorian is a strange one.  The first episode was promising, and the second was genuinely powerful, but then all the energy and potential dribbled away.  It felt as if one person wrote the first two episodes, then handed it off to a junior writer who couldnt follow upand then for whatever half-baked reason brought in Mando to compensate.  Much as I enjoyed spending half an episode watching Mando rebuild the old N-1, that wasnt a good use of time.

Thats poor planning and some dubious creative decisions.




> Originally Posted by *Mechalich*
> _Disney really, really, needs to slow down, especially with Star Wars and Marvel._


This I can agree with.  Unfortunately those are the tentpoles for Disney+.  Ever since the finale of Andor I find myself aching for something new and awesome on Wednesday mornings.  And there's nothing there, which makes me less likely to look at Disney+.




> Originally Posted by *Mechalich*
> _They need to spend more time refining concepts before they push ahead with production and there's certain concepts they just shouldn't do_.


Wholeheartedly agreed.  I personally would have been far happier if all the money and effort spent on Kenobi had gone into something more intelligent and more original.




> Originally Posted by *Mechalich*
> _Also, in the Star Wars space specifically, they need to fight the Empire more, and muck about other places in the galaxy less. In Star Wars, the Empire makes everything better._


Theres a certain pragmatic reality to this which cant be denied.  

And yet, what it means in practice is a) succumbing to nostalgia retreads, and b) restricting us to the same tiny niche in galactic history.  

My longstanding wish is an Andor-quality show which delves into the earliest history of the Jedi and the origins of the Republic.  I dont know how well those ever lined up in Legends, but I would love to see a show which explores a wide variety of competing early Force traditions, and gives us a coherent story as to how and why the Jedi emerged as the dominant sect.  There's a whole lot which could be done with that.

----------


## Mechalich

> Theres a certain pragmatic reality to this which cant be denied.  
> 
> And yet, what it means in practice is a) succumbing to nostalgia retreads, and b) restricting us to the same tiny niche in galactic history.


They can fight different versions of the Empire. Many of the best EU properties, like KOTOR involved fighting a Sith Empire that was only slightly different from the Galactic Empire of Palpatine. It's unoriginal, but it works. Star Wars, as a property, is defined by its archetypical nature. Good vs. Evil is what is does best, and that kind of melodrama needs great villains. The Empire is a truly great villain, something Andor leans into _hard_, and the setting has never quite matched that otherwise. Clone Wars material, for example, has always comparatively struggled because the CIS simply isn't that strong as a villain. Book of Boba Fett also typifies this problem. The bad guys are supposed to be the Pyke Syndicate, but they aren't scary and are clearly small time - that show got more out of Cad Bane showing up for five minutes than all the other baddies put together.

Most Star Wars properties where some version of the Empire isn't the villain involve fighting either criminals or bizarre monsters. The former works out well enough, sometimes, especially for non-Jedi heroes and perhaps best for anti-heroes, but tends to be low impact. The latter has generally been disastrous, leading to travesties such as the Killiks and Abeloth. 

Being fair, villain development is hard. It's not like Marvel or DC are doing better. The Empire has an advantage that its huge, and the Star Wars galaxy is huge. There's lots of different ways to fight the Empire just during the Rebellion Era. 




> My longstanding wish is an Andor-quality show which delves into the earliest history of the Jedi and the origins of the Republic.  I dont know how well those ever lined up in Legends, but I would love to see a show which explores a wide variety of competing early Force traditions, and gives us a coherent story as to how and why the Jedi emerged as the dominant sect.  There's a whole lot which could be done with that.


Out of all the Ostrander/Duurseema Star Wars comics collaborations, I'd probably rate Dawn of the Jedi as the least interesting. This also involves the Rakata - canon again! - which gets exceedingly messy. The early history of Star Wars also means that the technologies are different - no blasters, no lightsabers - and a lot of the iconography is lost.

Personally, I'd like to see a show about the founding of the modern Republic around 1000 BBY and the reforms to both it and the Jedi Order that happened at that time to shape the modern galaxy. Such a show could feature Darth Bane - would love to see the Sith on the run for a change.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Mechalich*
> _Star Wars, as a property, is defined by its archetypical nature. Good vs. Evil is what is does best, and that kind of melodrama needs great villains. The Empire is a truly great villain, something Andor leans into hard, and the setting has never quite matched that otherwise._


Fighting the Empire definitely has fan appeal, but part of what made Andor so excellent wasnt that they were fighting the same faceless Empire as always, but that the cogs in the Imperial machine were so unexpectedly humanized.  Theres no reason this approach couldnt be used in deeper eras of galactic history.  Some great oppressive force, yes, but not so monolithic and one-note as the Empire is usually portrayed.




> Originally Posted by *Mechalich*
> _Out of all the Ostrander/Duurseema Star Wars comics collaborations, I'd probably rate Dawn of the Jedi as the least interesting._


Not sure if Ive heard of this beforeprobably in some previous threadbut theres no reason why a Disney+ show should feel obliged to follow a comics collaboration.  And if its an underwhelming comics run, all the more reason to come up with something new.

And early Star Wars with key differences in technology sounds just fine to me.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

There's nothing inherently necessary about having the Empire, and nothing inherently difficult about making, say, the Pykes , into good villains in the right story. The fact that these works have to keep drawing from the same well, just speaks to a lack of creativity, or at least unwillingness to do anything new (which may be creatively driven or exec driven, who knows). None of these shows have been particularly interested in breaking new ground, but that's because their chosen focus is fan-service and nostalgia ( and occasionally complaining about the Jedi), not because it can't be done.

Even things like the High Republic, the most creative idea they had was the Drengir, and very little was done with that so far in favour of the much less creative Nihil.

One thing that puzzles me is the extreme lack of creativity in visual design, there's been so much focus on recycling old stuff and very few new designs. It doesn't make sense, where have all the good concept artists gone?

----------


## Mechalich

> There's nothing inherently necessary about having the Empire, and nothing inherently difficult about making, say, the Pykes , into good villains in the right story. The fact that these works have to keep drawing from the same well, just speaks to a lack of creativity, or at least unwillingness to do anything new (which may be creatively driven or exec driven, who knows). None of these shows have been particularly interested in breaking new ground, but that's because their chosen focus is fan-service and nostalgia ( and occasionally complaining about the Jedi), not because it can't be done.
> 
> Even things like the High Republic, the most creative idea they had was the Drengir, and very little was done with that so far in favour of the much less creative Nihil.
> 
> One thing that puzzles me is the extreme lack of creativity in visual design, there's been so much focus on recycling old stuff and very few new designs. It doesn't make sense, where have all the good concept artists gone?


The thing about the Empire is that they're Space Fascists, and this is an extremely relatable fact for everyone from the writers to the director to the prop department to the actors to the viewers. It's something everyone knows how to do, and therefore using the Empire eases the burden across the rest of production. Creating a new villain, or a new villainous organization, especially one that's evil enough to have the audience clearly cheer for morally ambiguous heroes to fight against - a major problem in Book of Boba Fett, which was gang A versus gang B, who cares? - is actually really hard. The Legends EU spent most of a decade trying find a way to make the CIS into suitable villains and had modest success at best. New villains also require development time, and these series are short (the High Republic has much less excuse, being novels).

The thing about Star Wars is that it's story focused rather than character focused - Andor isn't about Cassian, it's about the developing anti-Imperial struggle - and because it's so archetypical the primary story beat has always been 'fight evil.' The Empire, as far as evil in fiction goes, is an all-timer. Switching to basically anything else is a downgrade. 

Other stories certainly can be done, and should be, but it's harder. For one thing, the Star Wars economy makes no sense (there's a line in the prison sequence in Andor where Cassian claims prison labor is 'cheaper than droids' which is _highly_ questionable considering how much effort is needed to manage the prisoners) and this makes is extremely difficult to tell stories about everyday people - Mandalorian season 2 had the first 'kids at school' scene ever. Its Star Wars, there some fighting is baked into the formula, various writers have tried criminals, xenocidal aliens, Lovecraftian horrors, petty warlords, evil corporations (this one has potential, the KOTOR/SWTOR zone got a fair amount of mileage out of Czerka), rogue droids, and more, but space fascists always seems to work best.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Well, space fascism is just what Star Wars is about, from beginning to end. With a bunch of space spirituality mumbo jumbo and funky telekinesis thrown in for flavor, but in reality it's more about the war of freedom vs tyranny.

And like, maybe it's true that human beings ARE cheaper and better at tasks than droids are. That was sort of the whole point of using clone armies to defeat the separatists' droids, wasn't it? Especially when you can get human beings at basically no cost via harsh prison sentencing, rather than paying exorbitant prices for expensive clones.

By the time of the pre-Rebellion era of Andor, human life has become cheap and the Empire is starting to get bolder in their exploitation and subjugation of the people under their rule. And this is already implicated from the original movies as part of the reasons why the Rebellion exists and eventually defeats the Empire. Imperial injustices and Imperial atrocities, that's what the Rebellion is fighting against. That's what unifies the common man against the tyrannical government.

I guess you could say that droids would be ideal for the repetitive assembly tasks that the prisoners are doing, and without the risk of uprisings or unfortunate reassignments that lead to unnecessary slaughter. But prison laborers are much more relatable to the audience, since it's something that's happened for a very long time IRL, and we're trying to establish the villainy of the Empire for story reasons here. It isn't about how the Empire might be doing everything in a simpler or more effective way, but the fact that they aren't and we should be upset by that.

It is the Empire's hubris which leads to its downfall.

----------


## PontificatusRex

> I guess you could say that droids would be ideal for the repetitive assembly tasks that the prisoners are doing, and without the risk of uprisings or unfortunate reassignments that lead to unnecessary slaughter.


The lack of serious exploration the implications of robot technology and AI has always just been a thing in the Star Wars universe. I remember Kim Stanley Robinson's _Mars Trilogy_ showing the potential of robots building factories that build more robots, not to mention Ian Bank's _Culture_ series. In the SWU robots are just colorful features of the setting.

Just another example of SW being fantasy in a sci-fi setting, not actual science fiction. That said, _Andor_ does have more of the feel of a thought-out science fiction universe than any other SW story I can think of.

----------


## gbaji

> You could write a letter to Leland Chee and Pablo Hidalgo complaining about it, but yeah. Chirrut can't use the Force.


Yeah. I always disagreed with that. The mythology of Star Wars is that "the force" is everywhere, and is the force that binds all things. Presumably, every single thing, living or not, is connected to the force. It's just a matter of degree and whether any given person has the ability to actually interface with and/or control that connectivity in any meaningful way. Some people just being amazingly "lucky" and being missed by massed blaster fire? It's the force. Not enough to consciously control but their desire to "not be hit", makes them less likely to be. Han Solo? Always thought he was relatively strong in the force, just not enough to do anything consciously. It's why he's a great pilot, stumbles into lucky outcomes, and why he knows to "shoot first". We're told that the Jedi select based on relative force levels (need to be "this high" to be a Jedi). But presumably that leaves a whole lot of folks with other values that aren't high enough to meet the standards. I don't believe that has zero effect on anything though. And just about no one in Star Wars is ever going to be "zero".




> No, I understand that part. What confuses me is why several other people just left her alone with him when they're literally a rioting mob. The scene of the two of them alone was great, it's the transition that they just completely skipped over.
> 
> Maybe I should watch it again to see if I missed something...


No. That was it. It's a riot. Most of the rioters either knew something was up, and were prepared to fight the Imperials if things went that far, or may have had no clue what was going on until it happened. But even the former group wouldn't necessarily know exactly who organized things, or planned things, or prepared things, or what the actual "plan" was (Just told "show up and be ready to fight", which isn't a hard sell to folks being oppressed). Those folks know "someone" is "in charge", but not them. So someone shows up with a blaster, holds the ISB officer at gunpoint and tells them he'll take it from here, and they're going to assume this is somehow part of "the plan" (that they don't know about). And yeah, I'm not surprised at all that none of them wanted to get more involved than that.

I actually like that the writers didn't feel like beating the audience over the head with explanations for every single action and plot point in the series.




> Well, space fascism is just what Star Wars is about, from beginning to end. With a bunch of space spirituality mumbo jumbo and funky telekinesis thrown in for flavor, but in reality it's more about the war of freedom vs tyranny.


Just a side point, since it's been mentioned (and repeated) several times now. The Empire is evil. It's authoritarian. It certainly makes for great villains. It's not fascist. It's a pet peeve of mine that people tend to just apply that label liberally to any government or ideology that they don't like. But fascism has a specific definition and the Empire in Star Wars doesn't match it. Shares a couple check boxes, but only the same ones that every other authoritarian form of government does, and not the ones that are specific to that particular form.

There are far more similarities between the rise of the SW Empire and the rise of the Roman Empire. You just have to imagine that Caesar and Pompey are both secretly the same person in different disguises.




> And like, maybe it's true that human beings ARE cheaper and better at tasks than droids are. That was sort of the whole point of using clone armies to defeat the separatists' droids, wasn't it? Especially when you can get human beings at basically no cost via harsh prison sentencing, rather than paying exorbitant prices for expensive clones.
> 
> By the time of the pre-Rebellion era of Andor, human life has become cheap and the Empire is starting to get bolder in their exploitation and subjugation of the people under their rule. And this is already implicated from the original movies as part of the reasons why the Rebellion exists and eventually defeats the Empire. Imperial injustices and Imperial atrocities, that's what the Rebellion is fighting against. That's what unifies the common man against the tyrannical government.


Yeah. I struggled with that at first too. But I could see it. If you consider the size of the galaxy and the sheer volume of criminals you could gather up, that labor is dirt cheap. Free actually, and you get potential dissidents and disruptors off the streets. Droids presumably cost something to build and program (though we have to question how much given that Anakin was able to build one from spare parts while a slave on Tatooine). It's just a matter of maintenance cost at that point, and we don't really know what it takes to maintain and power a droid vs a person.

Dunno. I could see the Empire using this method. Also maybe easier to hide something you're doing if it's a prison, with actual prisoners, rather than building a bunch of automated droid factories somewhere churning out stuff. The former will only draw attention if maybe you captured someone that someone else wants to free for some reason, while the later will *always* draw attention to anyone who's part of any rebellious group.




> I guess you could say that droids would be ideal for the repetitive assembly tasks that the prisoners are doing, and without the risk of uprisings or unfortunate reassignments that lead to unnecessary slaughter. But prison laborers are much more relatable to the audience, since it's something that's happened for a very long time IRL, and we're trying to establish the villainy of the Empire for story reasons here. It isn't about how the Empire might be doing everything in a simpler or more effective way, but the fact that they aren't and we should be upset by that.
> 
> It is the Empire's hubris which leads to its downfall.


This too. Having our heroes learn about and shut down a droid factory somewhere maybe makes a great chapter in a video game, but this brings home the human cost of the Empire being in power.

I am, like others, also baffled by the Star Wars universes' inability to consistently use any sort of video surveillance or recording systems at all. There's a metric ton of scenes in various animated series' where the heroes should have been caught and apprehended early on if only the folks they were breaking into had like a Ring security system or something. Yet, oddly, when it's plot appropriate, they do show recorded holo-vids of various things, suggesting that the capability does exist and is more advanced than current modern technology.

Star Wars isn't driven by technology though. It's driven by characters. Always has. It's fantasy set in a futuristic setting, not actual sci-fi. It's why the people in the stories are what matters and their actions/decisions are what pushes and resolves every plot. Nothing wrong with this at all. It's clearly a successful formula. Just have to kinda handwave away certain things though.


Oh. And I will add that I actually like the character of Andor. Several posters have said he's bland or boring or whatever, but to me it's refreshing to show a true reluctant, er... hero? He was actually the only character from Rogue One that was actually interesting. The rest were just clear tropes "fitted in" to the story. When he just plain killed someone to keep them quiet early in the film was when I realized that "this is not your standard SW character". He's not a nice guy. He's doing not nice stuff. He's doing it for a "good cause", but still. Shades of gray. And that peaked my interest far more than the stereotypical "young innocent thrust into bigger conflict", or "world wise merc decides via circumstances to throw his lot in with the heroes", or "whacky guy who thinks he's one with the force helping out because it's the right thing to do".

He's far far more interesting than any of those characters precisely because his character makes us uncomfortable. He makes us wonder about his real motivations. He doesn't fit into a clear clean category we've become accustomed to. And I for one really like that. He's the only character in Rogue One that you could possibly look at and ask the question: "How the heck did this guy end up where he was in the story?". Right? This series answers that question and gives us a look at the kind of things that ultimately lead to the Rebellion forming. We saw some bits of that in Rebels, but this puts a more "dirty, on the ground level" touch on things. Which I also really like.

----------


## Palanan

One strong advantage of humans over droids is their innate flexibility.  Droids are generally purpose-built for very specific functions, whereas humans can be easily taught to carry out a whole range of operations.  

This works to the Empires advantage when building secret giant weapons platforms, because it would probably take more effort to custom-design the necessary droids and construction facilities than it would to use preexisting labor on a generic factory floor.  We see that the Empire does use droids for final assembly in vacuum, but they're using cheaper and more flexible human labor whenever possible.

----------


## Trafalgar

> Just a side point, since it's been mentioned (and repeated) several times now. The Empire is evil. It's authoritarian. It certainly makes for great villains. It's not fascist. It's a pet peeve of mine that people tend to just apply that label liberally to any government or ideology that they don't like. But fascism has a specific definition and the Empire in Star Wars doesn't match it. Shares a couple check boxes, but only the same ones that every other authoritarian form of government does, and not the ones that are specific to that particular form.


Just curious, what is the definition of fascism that you use?

----------


## Mechalich

> Just a side point, since it's been mentioned (and repeated) several times now. The Empire is evil. It's authoritarian. It certainly makes for great villains. It's not fascist. It's a pet peeve of mine that people tend to just apply that label liberally to any government or ideology that they don't like. But fascism has a specific definition and the Empire in Star Wars doesn't match it. Shares a couple check boxes, but only the same ones that every other authoritarian form of government does, and not the ones that are specific to that particular form.





> fascism: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.


Pretty sure all of that applies perfectly to the Galactic Empire. The Emperor had absolute power; he used various organizations to suppress opposition and criticism (the ISB being a notable one); industry and commerce were heavily regulated and subordinated to military needs - the restriction of the Holonet being a notable case, which is why Andor includes various communications workarounds used by the rebels; the state was aggressively expansionistic, conquering new territory throughout the galaxy even though the various unaligned systems represented no threat at all (Solo is actually a good example of this); and while racism doesn't really apply in the Star Wars galaxy the Empire was both deeply misogynistic (this is a major aspect of Dedra Meero's character in Andor) and incredibly speciesist.




> Yeah. I struggled with that at first too. But I could see it. If you consider the size of the galaxy and the sheer volume of criminals you could gather up, that labor is dirt cheap. Free actually, and you get potential dissidents and disruptors off the streets. Droids presumably cost something to build and program (though we have to question how much given that Anakin was able to build one from spare parts while a slave on Tatooine). It's just a matter of maintenance cost at that point, and we don't really know what it takes to maintain and power a droid vs a person.


The thing about convict labor is that while the workers don't have to be paid, the _guards_ do. The security costs applied to such operations are intense and have a huge impact on the bottom line, as do the provisioning costs which end up placed on the institution rather than the workers. In general, slave labor has severe economic inefficiencies even competing against paid workers in most fields - there are exceptions, like extremely dangerous work liable to kill the workers, but this doesn't apply to the sort of standard assembly line work being conducted in Andor.

Now, there is the interesting consideration, in Andor, that the show hints towards the security cost issue. Cassian makes the point that there aren't enough guards, and this is an essential fact that allows the break out to occur. The lack of guards suggests that the Empire is coming under economic strain. There's some other scenes implying this as well, such as when Yularen reviews the surveillance request for Ferrix.

That's actually a really important point. Economics is a huge driven behind public sentiment. The Empire like most regimes of its kind, offers security at the expense of freedom, but it also has to offer prosperity as well. It has been implied, throughout many Star Wars materials, with Andor being only the latest, that the Empire spawned its own doom not through massive oppression, but through spending too much on an astoundingly expansive military that, as time passed and the Clone Wars receded in history, had no way to justify its existence.

----------


## Peelee

> The thing about convict labor is that while the workers don't have to be paid, the _guards_ do.


The guards are being paid regardless of whether the prisoners do work or not. The prison exists regardless. These are already existing costs. They could do no labor and have those costs, or have labor and have those costs with additional materials being produced.

I seriously do not understand the "why don't they use droids?" crowd. All the "costs" are already being paid regardless. They can use droids _and_ prison labor.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

This is where we need someone with a PHD in robotics from Cato Neimidia again. Discussing the relative costs of droids vs people requires the answers to hundreds of questions that none of us have.

Don't a good chunk of these stories struggle with the fact that they have no ideas other than Empire, so we just end up with cheap knockoffs of the Empire like Moff Gideon and expensive knockoffs of the Empire like the First Order. If that's all they know how to do, that is a failure of creativity, not because anything not Empire is worse material.

----------


## Fyraltari

Okay, having given myself some times to ruminate, here are my thoughts on this show.

It has absolutely no right to be this good, like they announce a prequel spin-off of another prequel spin-off and they give us a 12-hour long _Army of shadows_ in space? Yes, please!

I think this might very well be the first _Star Wars_ property wherein the words "Jedi" or "the force" are not uttered a single time. And you know what? I dig it, climbing down from the mythic level to get to the ordinary gritty side of it is good once in a while.

Visually it's extremely well-done, the Eye of Aldhani in particular was especially gorgeous. But the overall aesthetics were very well done, giving each location its own distinct feel.

I think this show is my favourite portrayal of the Empire ever, in part because the antagonists manage to be individually competent while the organization as a whole is shown to be as incompetent as it ought to be (gotta love Blevin berating the Pre-Mor guy for trying to sweep the murders of the two guys under the rug to look good in his reports and then doing _the exact same thing_ or the ISB moving heaven and earth to find a guy who is already in an imperial prison because the Empire can't be arsed to check the identity of its convicts. One detail I really liked is the presence of the army troopers where you would expect the usual stormtroopers. On one hand that was probably to make the infiltration mission easier to follow, but on the other hand their open helmet allow us to relate to them in ways we can't with the stormtroopers (which is very much the point of this kind of complete face-concealment). Likewise xwith the corpo-thugs. This also allows them to have some little characterization, like how the leader of the team that arrested Bix in the opening arc seemed to be the most skeptical of Syril's whole speech and also visibly disgusted by his colleagues gunning down a civilian. Also, the fact that when the Eye opened, Imperials and Dhanis alike were looking at it with the same expression of awe. Because despite it all, beauty just binds us together. For a fleeting moment there weren't  Imperials and Dhanis, just people united by shared experience, something that almost no amount of fascistic brain-rot can take away because, as Nemik says, tyranny is goes against human nature. The Empire isn't just _inhumane_, at a fundamental level it is un-_human_.
And of course, how oppression is a mask worn by fear and how quickly these goons panic when the people decide that enough is enough. Both of Ferrix's revolts, the wardens cowering in a locker room, etc. And I gotta say, both the prison and Dr. Gorst's torture device were really creative. Especially the latter, turning genocide into a tool of torture, it's just so, so *wrong* on every level. Perfect encapsulation of the Empire there.
Also the fact that the Coruscant engineer was actually worried for the governor's family is a nice touch. Because he actually sees them as equals to him, unlike the Dhanis, who he's shut off his natural empathy to.

Pre-Mor the megacorp being the Empire-lite, is bang on too. Down to the security guards basically cosplaying as an Imperial-officer variant. The sergent dude being so jovial and enthusiastic makes him easy to like, despite him just happily spouting fascist rhetoric. Him remaining loyal to Syril was weirdly touching.  

The show's real strength lies in its characters and goddammit if I didn't fall in love with almost all of them.

With a huge exception for Marva, I've gotta say the Ferrix people were the least interesting to me. Brasso is okay in the "the best friend you wish you had" character but sort of bland. Timm just gave us the "romantic rival of the protagonist betrays him to the bad guys" trope, which okay, that's about as cliché as you get. Bix I thought would turn out to be more interesting than she was when it seemed she was a Rebel, but it turns out she didn't know who she was dealing with. It really seems she was only there because you apparently can't make a series centered around a dud without having a girlfriend-character somewhere (even though Casssian already had/will have one in Jyn in _Rogue One_) and they make her a damsel in distress in the final arc!

Marva was just awesome all around. Much like many people in real-life she's a woman who's fought the good fight her entire life with her only victory being to have kept the flame alive for the next generation. For decades she saw the world get darker and darker around her but she could nothing but protect her son and when the time is finally ripe for revolution, she is too old to do anything but inspire others, but it is precisely because of those qualities that she is loved enough to inspire. Also, I gotta say, best funeral ever! When I die, I wann  donate my organs, but I gotta say having my remains turn into a brick to bash jackbooted-jackasses in the head with a close second! (Bonus point for it happening on the very spot where they hanged her husband I think.)
And the actress portrays her so well! The scene where Cassian and her say their goodbyes had me in literal tears. They just clearly love each other so much.
Likewise we didn't get to see much of Clem Andor, but the little we got worked very well. The reveal that Cassian's chosen alias was honoring his adoptive father hit me like a truck out of nowhere. Also it's a nice touch that he was hanged by Republic soldiers and that it seems like the Andors were Separatist sympathizers.

The whole of the Aldhani team was immensely loveable too, they all felt very believable, and it is a great showcase of the different who join a revolution like that: the tow political idealists (Vel and Nemik), the two out for revenge (Cynta and Skeen), the two disgruntled Imperials (Gorn and Taramyn, I like that we aren't told why Taramyn switched sides too, could have been a million things) and of course, the one who kind of stumbled into it and is still figuring out his place. Special mention for Nemik and Skeen, who are two different echoes of Cassian. People he used to be/could be. Nemik is politically motivated, he wants to change the world for the better, he's young and full of hope. Skeen is apathetic and cynical motivated by either greed or revenge (regardless of whether he doesn't have a brother because he never had one or because he no longer has one, he was definitely hurt by his time in Imperial prisons) and only really cares about himself. Both recognize themselves in Cassian in both try to sway him to their respective way of seeing the world. Cassian pretends to reject both option by taking his payment and splitting, but ultimately, he shot Skeen and took Nemik's manifesto. Also, I love how you'd expect Nemik to mess up in action what with him falling asleep during watch duty, being an idealist, inexperimented, and all, but he actually performed very well. Also, that his reaction to learning that Cassian was being paid to help was to add a chapter to his manifesto about the importance of mercenaries to rebellions is impossibly sweet. I hope Cassian makes sure it gets circulated within the Alliance and outward.

Also, I want to note that I love the detail that the Aldhani leader clearly understands Basic well-enough to notice that Gorn took the bite out of his greeting, but refuses to speak it to the governor. He knows the Empire is out to destroy his culture and there's nothing he can do to stop it, but he'll cling to his language, to his legacy as hard as he can, because it matters, even if it's a doomed effort.

The prison was awesome, it really underscores the banal, pointless everyday cruelty of the Empire. Anybody wanna bet that the people Cassian got mixed in with also hadn't done anything of note? I fell like that shoretrooper just had a quota of arrests to meet. Kino the _Kapo_ was nice suprise too, I went in expecting his character to be just another little tyrant, abusing the scraps of power he enjoyed (like how _Kapos_ are usually presented, are really, were) but instead we got one hell of a leader. One! Way! Out! I love that he took the time to tell the inmates to help out those who fall or are lost. Not really sure what the point of having the prison at sea is if it's within swimming distance of the shore, though. Kino not knowing how to swim was quite the gut punch. He knew there wasn't a way out for him, but he still lead other to freedom. It's kind of undermined by the fact that the new arrival probably means there was a ship at the prison still, but if he didn't know how to fly either, then Cassian being accidentally pushed overboard adds to the tragedy of it. And of course, the booming voice yelling orders on loudspeakers turning out to be some little technician guy utterly removed from the violence he inflicted was perfect.

You know, it's a bit weird how little characterization Mon Mothma had received for a character this important to the background of the franchise. I'm glad she's getting fleshed out. Given how the Sequel Trilogy established her as the one who will defang the New Republic, allowing the First Order to rise, it's fitting that she is shown here somewhat removed from the realities of the Rebellion "on the ground", balking at Aldhani which is, when all is said and done, a relatively minor blow to the Empire. But she is also right that she is among the most exposed of the rebellion, being under constant surveillance by the Empire. Her family is something of a surprise too, since I don't think they were ever mentioned anywhere before. Perrin comes off to me as the quintessential, "I don't do politics" guy, so secure in his privilege, so willfully blind to what's going on, that he'll happily be pal around with the worst of the worst because "they're fun". And of course, he can't remember the name of his driver. Of course. Is it mean for me to hope that this guy just makes it out of the entire Civil war unscathed and Mon Mothma just has to carry his useless butt around for the years and years to come? He'll probably claim he was in on the whole thing from day one, too! Is it me or is the Chancellor's podium empty during Mon's scene in the Senate too? Might as well be talking to a brick wall. Then again if it's to warn of authoritarian shifts" in the Senate of the Emperor's Empire of Imperials... Of course, soon enough Mon Mothma will transition to a more effective form of opposition once the Alliance forms.

Luthen is also a very well done character, though he find his hunt for Cassian to rather poorly justified. He's a pragmatist making hard choices who worries he's becoming as bad as his enemy, which in itself is already proof that he isn't. (Also, have you committed genocide? If not congratulation, you're better than the Empire.) Once more, going against what you'd expect for a character like this, instead of the more idealist characters begrudgingly admitting he's right, it's him who seems to come around to Marva's way of seeing thing in the end. At least somewhat. Rad spaceship, too. Although the lightsabers are a bit much for me. Also, isn't Fondor the name of a planet?

Vel is something of an happy medium between those two. More pragmatic and involved than her cousin, more ethical than Luthen. I have no idea where the character is headed but I look forward to it.

I enjoyed seeing Saw in there. I loved the bit about the different Rebel groups having different ideologies making it hard for them to co-operate. Including some separatist hold-outs, apparently. Up to "Human Cultists" who sound more like they belong with the Imperials than the Rebels. Kind of gave me National Council of the Resistance vibe. War makes for strange bedfellows indeed. Not a fan of the only real-life political label ("anarchist") being applied to Saw, though, when his whole schtick is "too extreme for the Rebellion". Also, Luthen just casually accusing Tubes was hilarious. Also, also, "Axis"?... Fulcrum, much?

Syril is an interesting character. The guy clearly craves approval to an unhealthy amount, has no friends and as a result seems to immediately latch on to Pre-Mor and the Empire as a way to prove his worth. Gives me "wrong guy in the wrong time" vibes. If he were alive during the Republic, I feel like he would be just as dedicated to it as he is now to the Empire, but again more for validation than anything else. His mother is precisely right about his lack of self-confidence, seemingly not realizing that she's the reason he has none. Overall he didn't do much outside of the first episodes, this feels like a long introduction of his character. But I'm sure he'll be more important in season 2. The man is set up as Cassian's "negative twin". Cassian is the SW equivalent of a person from an indigenous people while Syril is from Corsucant, the Core's Core. Both were raised by single mothers (not sure if where Syril's father is at is ever alluded to), but Marva is Cassian's adoptive and loving mother who lifts him up while Syril's biological mother is a hag who constantly drags him down. Cassian has a vast array of friends and acquaintances, Syril has no life outside of work. Cassian originally doesn't want to join the cause, Syril is overeager to serve. To the point that he stlaked Dedra, his Luthen-analog. The season begins with their respective recklessness kicking off the plot (despite warnings from an older authority figure) and finish the season being recruited by someone threatening them with a(n improvised) weapon. Yeah, I'm sure Syril is going to replace the ISB guy Cynta stabbed.

Dedra meanwhile is Luthen's counterpart. She only really cares about Cassian as a way to reach him and both are hunting him. Both have to deal with a more measured, moderate superior (Partagaz/Mothma (although how superior she is to Luthen is very debatable)) and a theoretical ally who seems more interested in in-fighting than doing the job (Blevin/Saw (although Saw comes around)), both have a very dedicated and competent helper. And both are ruthless in the pursuit of their cause. Also, both are used to command from away from the frontlines and get a shock on Ferrix in the last episode.
With regards to that awkward moment with Syril at the end... Yeah, I can see them getting together for all the wrong reasons.. Syril is already clearly infatuated with her and she's shown him a surprising amount of leniency. I'm sure they'll go one to have a terribly toxic relationship culminating in an unhappy marriage. They would be terrible for each other.

With regards to her use of torture. Yeah, it's pointless, but torture always is. And that gets to the heart of the fascistic mindset. Violence is no longer a tool, it's an end in itself. That's what sets it apart from other political ethos. The exercise of power becomes indistinguishable from abuse of power. The suffering of those under you becomes the very essence of power. It's the same "logic" behind the prison facility's needless cruelty and the longer sentences. Of course it'd be easier to treat the inmates humanely, Ulaff probably would have been able to build much more of those things if he hadn't been electroshocked every time his team came last at the end of their 12-hour shifts. But the point of the prison isn't to build these things, that's a bonus, the real point is to torture the inmates. Because in the society th eEMpire constructed, they're undesirables. They deserve to suffer and die for the crime of existing, and if the Empire can squeeze some value out of them in doing so, good. Likewise, the lieutenant who styles himself a prefect even though it doesn't change anything and adds a cape to his uniform. This guy just wants to feel in charge, so he has Paak hanged because he has the authority to do that. But that authority doesn't exist unless he exercises it. Looping around to Bix being tortured, Dr. Gorst already got all his equipment out, there would be no point in making him pack it all back, _just because she's being cooperative_. The torture device exists to be used on people like Bix so she gets it, regardless of any practical purpose. Terror and cruelty both as means of control and as the endpoint of that control. And now I want to re-read _1984_.

So Cassian. I like Cassian. I think Diego Luna does an excellent job. Having him be originally from a Non-Republic civilization is a nice touch. (A bit puzzled by the fact that Clem and Marva saved him from Republic retaliation, but an "Imperial mining disaster" killing everyone on the planet, that's a separate incident, right?) He may come of a sort of bland, but I think that's mostly because he's defined more by his relationship with other characters. He's a man who has gone through a lot and ultimately decided that he can't let it go on like this. I like that they decided to focus his hatred of the Empire on one specific facet of their rule. Their contempt for "us" (which in-universe probably means people of the Outer Rim, especially non-humans) but allegoriaclly applies to any marginalized group. To the point that they can no longer fathom that "we" could strike back at them. Cassian feels like the Empire denies him even to see him as an enemy (which is funny considering how often his name comes up in top-level ISB meetings these days), he could maybe accept an Empire that would hate him, but one that doesn't give him this lowest of respects is intolerable to him. They care so little, nobody's even listening! In the beginning of the season he is much like Skeen, full of unfocused anger, looking out for himself and his rather than anything greater and clinging to the past (in the form of his sister who he refuses to accept is dead) but thanks to Luthen giving him a concrete way to fight back, the prison showing him how much worse it is getting and the other Rebels (especially Nemik) inspiring him, he is able to turn his anger into fuel for something constructive. That's the story of how someone joins a Rebellion.

If I had to say one negative thing about the show, it'd be that the first two episodes feel very slow. that might be because I didn't know about the three-episodes arc structure or because, based of his dialog in Rogue One, I came in expecting Cassian to already be part of the rebellion at the beginning of the show, but that's how it felt.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

I honestly think that giving robots free will means that droids are just not very reliable in the Star Wars universe. Even less reliable than people, somehow.

Pretty much every droid character in any Star Wars media I can think of is either a bumbling fool or a grumpy know-it-all who thinks they know best. Even battle droids fresh off the literal assembly line! Amusingly, R2-D2 swings between both of these extremes, hitting moments of hyper-competence just enough to keep the story on track. But a droid always has its own opinion on things and they never hesitate to let everyone around them know about it.

----------


## gbaji

I'll answer you both at the same time, and try to keep it in bounds rules wise.




> Just curious, what is the definition of fascism that you use?


Not sure how to quote quotes, so just pulling from the source myself:




> a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.



Yeah. Dictionary.com isn't the best definition, and it fails a bit because it compresses the most significant determinant into a single (itself broader) term. The first few bits are things that most/all authoritarian governments have in common. Dictator? Check. All dictatorships have them. Most empires do. Kinda depends on how you define "dictator", but the classic Latin "one who speaks the law" sorta gives us a clue here. Forcible suppression of opposition and criticism. Check again. Regimentation of industry, commerce, etc. Haven't heard of an empire/dictatorship that didn't also do this (and arguably a lot of only "semi-authoritarian" governments which aren't even up to those levels yet). Racism? Sometime yes, sometimes no. But that's also a "often" and not "always" to fascism as well, so again not a defining characteristic that differentiates it from other authoritarian forms of government.

The key phrase here is "aggressive nationalism", which is almost like hiding the core in the bushes of the definition here. Nationalism is a whole topic of discussion itself (which I'm not going to go into), and there's probably as many different opinions on what constitutes "aggressive" nationalism as there are experts in any given discussion, so yeah, not a super useful definition absent a few hundred hours of additional study on the subject.

So I'll give my own answer based on my own study and research. What differentiates fascism from other authoritarian forms of government is primarily that fascism focuses on the concept that "the people" is the same as "the state" which is the same as "the leader" (nationalism taken to an extreme). It spends a lot (and I mean a *lot*) of time on pageantry and ritual with an aim at getting the population to absolutely love and adore the leadership and everything said state (and by extension "the people") stand for. Fascism literally derives from the concept that if everyone works together as one, they are strong and unbreakable and works very hard to "win over" the people, to a fervent degree.

The methods of gaining power can vary, but usually derive from a populist movement in opposition to a perceived "week" system, usually by a strong charismatic leader (cult of personality) promising to better the lives of the people in some way and save them from the horrible seeming status quo. Seizing of authoritarian power is not done at the point of a gun, but with the demands/cheers of the people. They promise to work for the people and with the people, and to make things "work" better for them all.

The truly nasty thing about fascism is that the methods used to gain power make it extremely difficult for dissidence to arise from within. Nearly impossible actually. That's because the first association is to equate anyone not supporting the leader (and by extension the state) to also be in opposition to "the people". So that person failing to wave the flags and show the symbols? He's taking food away from the hungry. That person who isn't in the party? He's taking your job away from you. They are enemies. Condemn them. Identify them. Turn them in. That is the methodology of fascism. And once it gets going, and even as an increasingly large percentage of the people realize how terrible things actually are, and no matter how much they don't want to go along with things, no one dares speak out, because by then every single person around them is waving the flags, showing the symbols, and has joined the party. Each one of them assumes that everyone else around them is loyal to the leader/state, and thus is "alone" in feeling as they do. It's extremely hard for real resistance to grow in that kind of environment (I'm not sure if any fascist state has ever fallen from internal rebellion, but I think any futher examination would violate the rules, so let's leave it at "extremely hard").

Worse, if the state is even semi-smart, it sets up simple loyalty tests, expecting their operatives to be promptly reported for "anti-whatever" behavior. So the people become a bit programmed to do this "or else" very quickly, and no one can trust if that other person says something against the state, or suggests doing anything about it is expressing an honest desire to fight against the system, or if it's a test. No one speaks out. No one does anything.

That's what fascism is. The Empire in SW is bad. It's evil. But it's not fascism. It's like little "e" evil in that regard. Almost laughably evil. It's Roman empire during some really bad emperors evil. That's it though.




> Pretty sure all of that applies perfectly to the Galactic Empire. The Emperor had absolute power; he used various organizations to suppress opposition and criticism (the ISB being a notable one); industry and commerce were heavily regulated and subordinated to military needs - the restriction of the Holonet being a notable case, which is why Andor includes various communications workarounds used by the rebels; the state was aggressively expansionistic, conquering new territory throughout the galaxy even though the various unaligned systems represented no threat at all (Solo is actually a good example of this); and while racism doesn't really apply in the Star Wars galaxy the Empire was both deeply misogynistic (this is a major aspect of Dedra Meero's character in Andor) and incredibly speciesist.


Yeah. Heavy handed. But not fascist. If anything the very nature of how the empire operated virtually guaranteed opposition would spring up. The ISB is there, and is certainly oppressive and nasty,  but note that there isn't the kind of "pro-empire" rhetoric going on. It's that other side of the coin that is missing. There are no pictures of the Emperor on every wall, or flags flown from every window. No constant and expected statements of loyalty by every random person passing each other on the street (or as common salutations). No salutes. None of the day to day "control the minds/actions of the people" stuff that is specific to fascism. The SW empire really doesn't care about winning over the people, even if it's just a smokescreen. They just don't care. People aren't important to the empire. They just rule through direct power and nothing else.

Some elements of the rise to power do fit, but again, it was less a demand of the people for a partcular leader as Palpatine just using a false flag trick to declare himself leader (after first manipulating the senate into giving him war powers). No one saw him as this great popular leader whom "the people" were demanding save them from a broken system. If anything Palpatine more or less stayed in the background through most of it, manipulating other factors until he could just seize complete control of the military and wipe out the Jedi (difficult to create an analogy there). Once he had that, there was basically no one who could oppose him. He didn't need to "win over" the people at all, and he never really made any attempt to do so. I'll also point out that technically (just technically) he was not a dictator either. The senate was still in existence right up until events in ANH, when they were just then being dissolved with imperial governors replacing them. So "kinda" a dictator? Again though, more parallel to the Roman empire than to any fascist state.

Again, everything else is just indicative of a variety of different forms of authoritarian regimes. They're relatively easy to form a resistance within (that's not the same as being successful though). I particularly love the line Leah gives to Vader (or was it Tarkin?) in ANH "the harder you sqeeze your fist, the more worlds slip through your fingers" (or something like that). Fascism is very different in that it makes people believe that everything being done is for a "greater good", and to even think about opposing it is to oppose that greater good itself. It's ingrained in them. They are indoctrinated into it, and that indoctrination continues on and is extremely important to maintain. There is no real indoctrination in the SW empire, just oppression and punishment.

And that's not fascism. In fascism farmboys like Luke wouldn't dream of leaving home and joining the rebellion. They would grow up hating the rebellion, beliving with all their hearts that those rebels are the cause of all the problems in the galaxy, and dream of joining up the moment they are old enough, to be a part of something truly important and "do the right thing, for the people, for the empire, and for our beloved emperor". They'd practice saluting eachother while children and be taught to rote memorize and repeat words and phrases of support and love for the system to ensure that mindset when they were old enough to serve.

Nope. Not even close to fascism. Fascism is really really evil folks. Let's not water down just how evil it really is by misapplying it to things it is not.

----------


## Noldo

One thing that made Andor so good was pacing and I hope that producers of other shows have been paying attention. The sub-arcs worked very well to create a longer show, not just a two hour movie that is stretched over six 45 minute episodes (especially Marvel shows have suffered from the latter).

I think it was most visible in the second arc - and especially when compared to Mandalorian, which was fundamentally a "monster / heist of the week" story, especially during the season one.Instead of having to prepare and complete the heist in one episode, we are served a couple of episodes worth of preparation, giving more space for the characters to interact and show their personality.

----------


## gbaji

Missed this earlier, so will comment now:




> Book of Bobalorian is a strange one.  The first episode was promising, and the second was genuinely powerful, but then all the energy and potential dribbled away.  It felt as if one person wrote the first two episodes, then handed it off to a junior writer who couldnt follow upand then for whatever half-baked reason brought in Mando to compensate.  Much as I enjoyed spending half an episode watching Mando rebuild the old N-1, that wasnt a good use of time.
> 
> Thats poor planning and some dubious creative decisions.


Eh. I saw Book of Boba Fett as basically "Mandalorian season 2.5". It's both prequel and sequel to season 2 of that show. It shows us the events that lead up to Fett showing up in season 2 (how he survived, what he's been doing, and why he's looking for his armor and knows where to look) and shows us what happens with him after the events at the end of the season, and brings us "up to date" on what else is going on with Mando.

It's not intended to be a stand alone story, but part of a larger whole. And I actually kinda like that they're making some effort to fill in those gaps. We sometimes get so caught up in stories that follow a single character, or focus on a single location, that we lose sight of the concept that there is a bigger picture. They introduced Boba Fett in Mandalorian season 2, so it would have been a problem if they hadn't provided some explanation for that (fans were pretty much screaming for this). Could they have just put in some backstory/flashbacks in an episode or two of Manalorian? Yeah, maybe. If they intended Fett to continue to be a major character in that storyline or otherwise contrived to fit "him" into Mando's story (and take up time there).

Dunno. This allowed them to get the character "out of their system", and instead inserted Mando into that story, then we can move on and allow season three to focus on the next part of Mando's story. Which I think is a good thing. Again, the alternative would have required them to use episodes in season 3 of the Mandalorian to cover this. So if you really really just hate it that much, it allows you to watch The Mandalorian in the future while just skipping over the whole thing if you want.




> My longstanding wish is an Andor-quality show which delves into the earliest history of the Jedi and the origins of the Republic.  I dont know how well those ever lined up in Legends, but I would love to see a show which explores a wide variety of competing early Force traditions, and gives us a coherent story as to how and why the Jedi emerged as the dominant sect.  There's a whole lot which could be done with that.


I agree 100% I've strongly felt ever since they first started doing the sequel trilogy that part of what they were exploring is the idea that "the force" doesn't really naturally fall into dark/light "sides", but that those are constructs imposed on people based on Jedi teachings over thousands of years. The Jedi believe in light and dark, and they teach their people to only follow the light side, which kinda means that every other force user of significance "falls" into the dark side by default (or hides out somewhere hoping not to be noticed by either "side"). The prequels hinted at the flaw in the Jedi way of thinking (they basically were forcing the creation of Sith to "balance" them), and their utter misunderstanding of the prophesy of "the one who will bring balance to the force" (assuming that their "light side" way was itself "balanced", when it really isn't).

It would be really interesting to explore some of these aspects, especially early conflicts even among Jedi as to what exactly was "light" and "dark", and yeah, early formation of the Republic itself. There's a ton of stuff out there, mostly non or semi cannonical at best. Would be interesting to see what they do with it. Would absolutely love to see the variety of force users that could exist pre-Jedi (or early Jedi), and how that might play out. Would  also love to see this explored more in stories set in the "current future" (like we got some glimpses of in the sequels, but then kinda yanked away too).

Dunno. Lots of stuff that could be done. And if it's done with the quality that Andor was, that's just more betterer!

----------


## Mechalich

> I agree 100% I've strongly felt ever since they first started doing the sequel trilogy that part of what they were exploring is the idea that "the force" doesn't really naturally fall into dark/light "sides", but that those are constructs imposed on people based on Jedi teachings over thousands of years. The Jedi believe in light and dark, and they teach their people to only follow the light side, which kinda means that every other force user of significance "falls" into the dark side by default (or hides out somewhere hoping not to be noticed by either "side"). The prequels hinted at the flaw in the Jedi way of thinking (they basically were forcing the creation of Sith to "balance" them), and their utter misunderstanding of the prophesy of "the one who will bring balance to the force" (assuming that their "light side" way was itself "balanced", when it really isn't).


First of all, the ST is completely, utterly, conceptually bereft with regard to saying anything whatsoever about the Force or frankly anything at all and is better off entirely disregarded. Second, the light side and dark side (or ashla and bogan if you want to get all mythic about it) of the Force represent real aspects of how this fundamental aspect of the Star Wars universe operates. Whether they represent 'good' and 'evil' is much more nebulous, but they exist, just like positive and negative electrical charges exist. It is possible for a force user to draw upon both sides and exist 'in the middle,' as Bendu did, but this is by no means a superior path (Bendu was, honestly, kind of an a**).

Additionally, 'balance' as the Jedi understood it is not a balance between good and evil in a D&D sense - this is a very common misinterpretation - but the elimination of dark side influence by bringing the universe into a cosmic balance with the Force, which makes a lot more sense within the religious framework Lucas cribbed from (forum rules forbid discussion of this, regrettably). Nor do the Jedi consider all non-Jedi to be dark siders. Several non-Jedi groups, such as the pacifist Fallanassi, are arguably more in tune with the light side than the Jedi themselves.

Also, the Jedi are not, nor have the ever been, a majority of the Force Users in the galaxy. There have always been hundreds or thousands of localized traditions and countless force adepts using the Force largely independently, often as local shamans or the equivalent (there are 10^17 people in the galaxy, even if force users are 1 in a billion (10^9), an extremely low estimate, there would be 100 million (10^8) force users, the Jedi have never managed even close to that number). The Jedi, and their dark side counterparts (usually, but not always, called the Sith), are simply the most powerful, due to a combination of their ancient link to the largest galactic government - this, somewhat ironically, actually traces back to the actions of the Hutts - and to an ideology that believes they are obligated to use the Force to protect the galaxy, a belief that produces their actively interventionist posture and causes their dark side counterparts to believe in galactic conquest. Less ambitious traditions, the Witches of Dathomir being the best developed example, simply use the force for the benefit of their people, and their dark side counterpart, the Nightsisters, do the same thing, only nastier. It is ideology regarding how the Force _should be used_, not any belief regarding what the Force _is_, that sets the Jedi apart.

The prequels critiqued Jedi ideology and structure, specifically the choice to prioritize purity over practicality, which caused the order to decline numerically, to lose touch with the populace, and to lack any method to handle those who did not fit a narrow, rigid view of what a Jedi must be - which Anakin, due to the exceptional circumstances of his adoption into the order, inevitably violated. They understood the Force just fine, it was everything else they screwed up.

----------


## Peelee

> Additionally, 'balance' as the Jedi understood it is not a balance between good and evil in a D&D sense - this is a very common misinterpretation - but the elimination of dark side influence by bringing the universe into a cosmic balance with the Force, which makes a lot more sense within the religious framework Lucas cribbed from (forum rules forbid discussion of this, regrettably).


No, it's pretty cut and dry good/evil. Yoda is pretty clear on this, IMO. 



> Also, the Jedi are not, nor have the ever been, a majority of the Force Users in the galaxy. There have always been hundreds or thousands of localized traditions and countless force adepts using the Force largely independently,


[Citation needed] 



> The prequels critiqued Jedi ideology and structure, specifically the choice to prioritize purity over practicality, which caused the order to decline numerically, to lose touch with the populace, and to lack any method to handle those who did not fit a narrow, rigid view of what a Jedi must be


Funny you talk about misconceptions, since I've never actually seen anything to back up these claims despite seeing them constantly.

----------


## gbaji

> First of all, the ST is completely, utterly, conceptually bereft with regard to saying anything whatsoever about the Force or frankly anything at all and is better off entirely disregarded.


Assuming "ST" means "sequel trilogy". You mean except for the multiple force weilding characters who ascribe to neither Jedi nor Sith traditions? A work does not have to come right out and hit us over the head with this. The fact that Luke intentionally did not want the Jedi order to be reconstituted also leans heavily into this same concept.

That the whole Jedi vs Sith conflict should be left in the past seemed to me to be an extremely strong theme in the sequel films. Almost overwhelmingly so. Maybe you didn't get that, but I certainly did. Now, yes, they more or less proceeded to step all over that (I blame marketing!) by having Rey steal the Jedi books from Luke, leaving us with the perception that she's going to start the Jedi over again, but up until that point, it was a pretty obvious theme.




> Second, the light side and dark side (or ashla and bogan if you want to get all mythic about it) of the Force represent real aspects of how this fundamental aspect of the Star Wars universe operates.


Is that canon fact? Or speculation? Or just three mystical beings who decided it was that way and maybe were wrong as well? Dunno. I'm not just taking what is "said" as fact, but extrapolating what "might be". I've never liked the idea that "the force" was actually rigidly divided into "sides". The fact that some authors and script writers choose to write stories declaring that doesn't change that opinion. The Jedi and Sith certainly do seem to believe this, but again, how much of that is fact and how much is that they believe it to be so and have created thousands of years of dobma around it?




> Whether they represent 'good' and 'evil' is much more nebulous, but they exist, just like positive and negative electrical charges exist. It is possible for a force user to draw upon both sides and exist 'in the middle,' as Bendu did, but this is by no means a superior path (Bendu was, honestly, kind of an a**).


I watched Rebels too, and also always saw Bendu as representing the "true force", with the light and dark more or less being human constructs. Maybe that's just me trying to impose a bit of sense in it though. Always felt to me like Bendu was more or less trying to tell the rest of them "It doen't have to be this way unless you make it that". And no, he did not use "both light and dark". They were the same thing to him. Which is more or less what I'm trying to get across. There is one "force". Light and Dark are just human perceptions of the power and how it is used.




> Additionally, 'balance' as the Jedi understood it is not a balance between good and evil in a D&D sense - this is a very common misinterpretation - but the elimination of dark side influence by bringing the universe into a cosmic balance with the Force, which makes a lot more sense within the religious framework Lucas cribbed from (forum rules forbid discussion of this, regrettably).


If the force contains both dark and light aspects, then balance cannot be achieved by eliminating one side of it. That was my point about the Jedi not understanding the prophesy. Anikan did bring about balance by destroying the Jedi, who had become too powerful and pervasive. Then the pendulum swung to the dark side for a while, and then his son, by killing Vader and the Emperor broght the cycle to completion with both sides "destroyed".

And this dovetails into the theme I spoke of about the sequels. The universe is now free to pursue any form of force weilding it wants. Obviously, some hold outs are still pushing one side versus the other, but that was presumbly the point of the exercise from a "cosmic balance" pov (including Kylo Ren rejecting/defeating the dark side). Whether we get to see that lesson learned, or whether history repeats is a story for another day, or course. But I totally got that theme and message from the sequels. Yeah. It's a little messy, and gets lost a bit, but it was there. And I personally thought that was the best part of the sequels. It bookended the process started in the prequels.





> Also, the Jedi are not, nor have the ever been, a majority of the Force Users in the galaxy. There have always been hundreds or thousands of localized traditions and countless force adepts using the Force largely independently, often as local shamans or the equivalent (there are 10^17 people in the galaxy, even if force users are 1 in a billion (10^9), an extremely low estimate, there would be 100 million (10^8) force users, the Jedi have never managed even close to that number).


Perhaps. Numbers and math does not seem to be a strong suit in the SW universe anyway. But the Jedi are certainly the most prominent force wielders in the galaxy, and historically went through a series of processes to "weed out" what they considered heretical teachings from their ranks.

You're somewhat preaching to the choir on this one though. I've always thought that there were a ton of force sensitive people, who, for various reasons were never taught to do anything with it. The Jedi had such high standards for admission, and such high standards for behavior, that it put a damper on everyone else. There were certainly the occasional small group on this planet or that one, but even by your own math, there could not have been more than a small number of "active" force weilders among any given planetary population, so in the absence of active recruitment and training, such groups would be small and few and far between.




> Less ambitious traditions, the Witches of Dathomir being the best developed example, simply use the force for the benefit of their people, and their dark side counterpart, the Nightsisters, do the same thing, only nastier. It is ideology regarding how the Force _should be used_, not any belief regarding what the Force _is_, that sets the Jedi apart.


Eh. Again, I'm inserting my own headcanon a bit here, but they kinda do. They define it in light and dark. Yeah, the Sith do as well, but almost as a means of recruiting fallen Jedi (or just those who don't meet their standards) to their own "side". The Sith use whatever powers they can. Any aspect of the Sith that "requires" them to only use whatever powers are assigned to the "dark side" (and no, I'm not considering video games to be valid sources for this) is purely a construct of their own belief IMO, and not any innate restriction of the force itself. They "choose" to have a side because they've decided that sides exist.

And yeah. I've often had the belief that the Sith existed specifically as a "balance" to the Jedi. If there weren't a bunch of folks saying "The best way to use the force is this way and anyone who doesn't is dark and evil", it's unlikely the Sith ever would have shown up, and certainly not manifested the way they did.




> The prequels critiqued Jedi ideology and structure, specifically the choice to prioritize purity over practicality, which caused the order to decline numerically, to lose touch with the populace, and to lack any method to handle those who did not fit a narrow, rigid view of what a Jedi must be - which Anakin, due to the exceptional circumstances of his adoption into the order, inevitably violated. They understood the Force just fine, it was everything else they screwed up.


I'm going with the same question. You have a source for this? I'm not aware of any indication that the Jedi had been in decline at all right up to the events in the prequels. Yes, I do agree that as they become more dogmatic, this caused problems for them, but that was a long gradual process. And if anything, along the way they had gained more power and prominence over time as a result (which was also part of the problem. They got full of themselves).

Any references to "powerful past masters" who were so much greater than those who existed in the present could have been myth, but could also have been the fact that maybe by resstricting themselves so much, they were in fact narrowing their power in ways they weren't realizing until it was too late. Dunno. There's a lot of speculation you can do. But I suspect that the ancient Jedi were far less strict with how they used power, and more "natural" about it.

Which is kinda where I was going with this. The Jedi caused the imbalance in the force. They just didn't realize the prophesy was reall about them all along.

----------


## Peelee

> If the force contains both dark and light aspects, then balance cannot be achieved by eliminating one side of it. That was my point about the Jedi not understanding the prophesy. Anikan did bring about balance by destroying the Jedi, who had become too powerful and pervasive.


Anakin canonically brought balance by destroying the Sith when he killed Palpatine and died. "Balance" is not equal parts Sith and Jedi. "Balance" is no Sith.

Yoir claims are headcanon. You can have your own headcanon, that's perfectly fine, but you can't present it as fact.

----------


## Mechalich

> You mean except for the multiple force weilding characters who ascribe to neither Jedi nor Sith traditions?


Which characters would those be? The ST contains the following Force Users: Luke, Leia, Rey, Kylo, Snoke, Palpatine, Finn (implied), the Knights of Ren, and broom boy. _All_ of those characters except broom boy ascribe to either the Jedi or Sith tradition and training even if they don't actively call themselves that.




> That the whole Jedi vs Sith conflict should be left in the past seemed to me to be an extremely strong theme in the sequel films. Almost overwhelmingly so.


No, it's a theme in _The Last Jedi_, which is immediately contradicted by _Rise of Skywalker_. Now, TRoS claims that the Sith have been destroyed, since Rey obliterated all their spirits while they were in Palpatine or something (again the ST is an incoherent mess), but since new Jedi will inevitably fall to the dark side in the future something like the Sith will re-emerge. Every force tradition has a dark side counterpart.




> Is that canon fact? Or speculation? Or just three mystical beings who decided it was that way and maybe were wrong as well? Dunno. I'm not just taking what is "said" as fact, but extrapolating what "might be". I've never liked the idea that "the force" was actually rigidly divided into "sides". The fact that some authors and script writers choose to write stories declaring that doesn't change that opinion. The Jedi and Sith certainly do seem to believe this, but again, how much of that is fact and how much is that they believe it to be so and have created thousands of years of dobma around it?


Word of God is that the Jedi understanding of the Force is the "most correct." It's not a perfect understanding, and while Word of God no longer applies to the Disney canon in the same way as the Legends canon, but since basically every major concept from Legends has been gradually shunted over into the Disney canon because of continuity of authorship across supplemental materials. So yes, it's as close to a fact as can be stated with regard to a mystical concept. 

You can dislike it all you want, plenty of people have. Several published Star Wars authors - notably Matthew Stover and Chris Avellone - have done so in print or games multiple times. Whenever this happens subsequent sources have made it clear to declare that statements by various mouthpieces of said authors: Kreia, Vergere, etc., are full of it and their declarations are not to be trusted.




> If the force contains both dark and light aspects, then balance cannot be achieved by eliminating one side of it.


Of course, it can. It's the paradigm: the universe is flawed, but it can be fixed. I can't use the actual religious examples, but have you ever watched RahXephon? That anime series operates on the same principle, the universe is flawed, and a being of destiny needs to conduct 'world tuning' (very much as tuning a musical instrument) to make everything work the way it is supposed to. And this then, after various trials and tribulations, happens, leading to a world where all the various problems have no worked out the way they were supposed to, mostly measured by people ending up in the right relationships rather than the wrong ones. The Jedi prophecy is presumably less comprehensive, referring to bringing the current iteration of galactic civilization into balance rather than changing the cosmos itself (though the Mortis Arc of TCW is suggestive that Anakin's destiny was truly that vast only he rejected it).




> Eh. Again, I'm inserting my own headcanon a bit here, but they kinda do. They define it in light and dark.


No, they _observe_ that there are two different aspects. The terms Ashla and Bogan were introduced in Dawn of the Jedi and referred to the moons of Tython where the Je'daii originated. Ashla was bright and associated with the light side, while Bogan was dark and associated with the dark side. The Force will associate in this fashion, with localized inequalities, entirely on its own, without any sapient intervention at all. Again, this is not necessarily _moral_, merely dualistic. There are plenty of things in the universe with fundamentally dualistic properties, there's no reason why the Force should not be that way.




> I'm going with the same question. You have a source for this? I'm not aware of any indication that the Jedi had been in decline at all right up to the events in the prequels.


There are several. The key film source quote is in AotC, when Mace Windu says 'Jedi we have left' with regard to dispatching forces to Geonosis. Other sources, mostly in Legends, such as The Jedi Path sourcebook, the Republic comics series, and a handful of novels such as Outbound Flight, all make this quite clear. The Darth Bane books also indicate that this was explicitly part of Bane's overall plan. Also, the Saga Kotor sourcebook refers to the Old Republic period as one containing 'an abundance of Force users' and talks about how much more proportionally abundant they are during that time.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

There's no particular reason that the existence of the Jedi and Sith would prevent the existence of any other Fore tradition. Writers just find it easier to complain about the restriction of the Jedi  v Sith than to actually devote time to making something new. They always ultimately chicken out when push comes to shove. There was nothing restricting the universe to Jedi v Sith except the writers.

The few efforts to branch out have largely been ineffective, we just end up with the likes of Ahsoka (identical to the Jedi, but occasionally states 'I am no Jedi', Ventress (identical to a Sith, claims not to be one), or the High Republic, wehich gives us Orla Jannis (identical to a Jedi, but absent the sense of personal responsibility) or Ty Yorrick (identical to a Jedi, but disrespectful and rude).

The idea that the Jedi and Sith are preventing some kind of progress doesn't make any sense, because if someone wants to start a different force tradition (in or out of universe) they absolutely can. The idea that that dynamic must be destroyed for anything else to happen is just a cheap way for writers to claim to want to shake things up without actually doing it ('that damned jedi v sith cycle is preventing me from moving beyond it, not my own lack of ideas)

The prequel Jedi are often critiqued for things like dogmatism, arrogance, or inflexibility, but it is hard to quantify that. The idea that they are losing touch with the people or shut away in an ivory tower if difficult to reconcile with the fact that most of them spend much of their time travelling the galaxy helping people in need, and would be some of the most well travelled people in the galaxy who have been exposed to the widest number of perspectives, from the coruscant elites to poor farmers and victims of crime.

The things they are dogmatic about are stuff like 'murdering unarmed prisoners is wrong' and 'don't be controlled by your anger and lash out', which are fairly reasonable. Qui Gon is known for his divergent opinions, but still held in esteem. Dooku is still respected even after he leaves the Jedi, until it's proven that he is fomenting war. Obi Wan, when the Jedi order can't find the Kaminoan dart, immediately goes to a civilian friend in search of knowledge the Jedi Order doesn't have. Anakin is allowed into the order despite being traditionally too old to train, and he's not mistreated because they want to enforce the 'no child massacres' rule. 

Yoda, oldest and wisest Jedi, is overruled by the Jedi Council if they feel the need, and he respects their decisions even if he disagrees. They're ultimately remarkably humble and flexible in most circumstances.

----------


## pendell

> There's no particular reason that the existence of the Jedi and Sith would prevent the existence of any other Fore tradition. Writers just find it easier to complain about the restriction of the Jedi  v Sith than to actually devote time to making something new. They always ultimately chicken out when push comes to shove. There was nothing restricting the universe to Jedi v Sith except the writers.
> 
> The few efforts to branch out have largely been ineffective, we just end up with the likes of Ahsoka (identical to the Jedi, but occasionally states 'I am no Jedi', Ventress (identical to a Sith, claims not to be one), or the High Republic, wehich gives us Orla Jannis (identical to a Jedi, but absent the sense of personal responsibility) or Ty Yorrick (identical to a Jedi, but disrespectful and rude).
> 
> The idea that the Jedi and Sith are preventing some kind of progress doesn't make any sense, because if someone wants to start a different force tradition (in or out of universe) they absolutely can. The idea that that dynamic must be destroyed for anything else to happen is just a cheap way for writers to claim to want to shake things up without actually doing it ('that damned jedi v sith cycle is preventing me from moving beyond it, not my own lack of ideas)
> 
> The prequel Jedi are often critiqued for things like dogmatism, arrogance, or inflexibility, but it is hard to quantify that. The idea that they are losing touch with the people or shut away in an ivory tower if difficult to reconcile with the fact that most of them spend much of their time travelling the galaxy helping people in need, and would be some of the most well travelled people in the galaxy who have been exposed to the widest number of perspectives, from the coruscant elites to poor farmers and victims of crime.
> 
> The things they are dogmatic about are stuff like 'murdering unarmed prisoners is wrong' and 'don't be controlled by your anger and lash out', which are fairly reasonable. Qui Gon is known for his divergent opinions, but still held in esteem. Dooku is still respected even after he leaves the Jedi, until it's proven that he is fomenting war. Obi Wan, when the Jedi order can't find the Kaminoan dart, immediately goes to a civilian friend in search of knowledge the Jedi Order doesn't have. Anakin is allowed into the order despite being traditionally too old to train, and he's not mistreated because they want to enforce the 'no child massacres' rule. 
> ...


Check me on this, but the last really different Force Tradition was the Grey Jedi who served the Living Force in the legends canon.  George Lucas issued a fiat declaration they were mistaken, but Disney no longer needs to be bound by his decisions. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

Which ones are you referring to? There were a lot of things called Grey Jedi that were very different.

Some people would call Qui Gon a grey Jedi, but he's basically a Jedi but with extra complaining.

'Serving the Living Force' is tricky because how are people supposed to know the Will of the Force and distinguish it from their own will?

----------


## Peelee

> There's no particular reason that the existence of the Jedi and Sith would prevent the existence of any other Fore tradition. Writers just find it easier to complain about the restriction of the Jedi  v Sith than to actually devote time to making something new. They always ultimately chicken out when push comes to shove. There was nothing restricting the universe to Jedi v Sith except the writers.
> 
> The few efforts to branch out have largely been ineffective, we just end up with the likes of Ahsoka (identical to the Jedi, but occasionally states 'I am no Jedi', Ventress (identical to a Sith, claims not to be one), or the High Republic, wehich gives us Orla Jannis (identical to a Jedi, but absent the sense of personal responsibility) or Ty Yorrick (identical to a Jedi, but disrespectful and rude).
> 
> The idea that the Jedi and Sith are preventing some kind of progress doesn't make any sense, because if someone wants to start a different force tradition (in or out of universe) they absolutely can. The idea that that dynamic must be destroyed for anything else to happen is just a cheap way for writers to claim to want to shake things up without actually doing it ('that damned jedi v sith cycle is preventing me from moving beyond it, not my own lack of ideas)
> 
> The prequel Jedi are often critiqued for things like dogmatism, arrogance, or inflexibility, but it is hard to quantify that. The idea that they are losing touch with the people or shut away in an ivory tower if difficult to reconcile with the fact that most of them spend much of their time travelling the galaxy helping people in need, and would be some of the most well travelled people in the galaxy who have been exposed to the widest number of perspectives, from the coruscant elites to poor farmers and victims of crime.
> 
> The things they are dogmatic about are stuff like 'murdering unarmed prisoners is wrong' and 'don't be controlled by your anger and lash out', which are fairly reasonable. Qui Gon is known for his divergent opinions, but still held in esteem. Dooku is still respected even after he leaves the Jedi, until it's proven that he is fomenting war. Obi Wan, when the Jedi order can't find the Kaminoan dart, immediately goes to a civilian friend in search of knowledge the Jedi Order doesn't have. Anakin is allowed into the order despite being traditionally too old to train, and he's not mistreated because they want to enforce the 'no child massacres' rule. 
> ...


Agreed on all counts. 



> Check me on this, but the last really different Force Tradition was the Grey Jedi who served the Living Force in the legends canon.  George Lucas issued a fiat declaration they were mistaken, but Disney no longer needs to be bound by his decisions. 
> 
> Respectfully, 
> 
> Brian P.


Jal Shey monks, Zaison Sha monks, witches of Dathomir, Aing-Tii monks, Sorcerers of Tund, Rakata, whatever they had in Legacy of the Force series (that schlock wasn't good enough to remember). And those are just off the top of my head. 



> Which ones are you referring to? There were a lot of things called Grey Jedi that were very different.
> 
> Some people would call Qui Gon a grey Jedi, but he's basically a Jedi but with extra complaining.
> 
> 'Serving the Living Force' is tricky because how are people supposed to know the Will of the Force and distinguish it from their own will?


Always hated "the will of the force". Great way to offload ethics and morality.

----------


## pendell

> Which ones are you referring to? There were a lot of things called Grey Jedi that were very different.
> 
> Some people would call Qui Gon a grey Jedi, but he's basically a Jedi but with extra complaining.
> 
> 'Serving the Living Force' is tricky because how are people supposed to know the Will of the Force and distinguish it from their own will?


I was referring to the characters in  the novel "Unifying Force" . I suppose they were a subset of Jedi. George Lucas went out of his way to repudiate the novel's take on the Force. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Peelee

> I was referring to the characters in  the novel "Unifying Force" . I suppose they were a subset of Jedi. George Lucas went out of his way to repudiate the novel's take on the Force. 
> 
> Respectfully, 
> 
> Brian P.


Interestingly, I repudiated the entire New Jedi Order series' take on Star Wars.  :Small Wink:

----------


## gbaji

> Anakin canonically brought balance by destroying the Sith when he killed Palpatine and died. "Balance" is not equal parts Sith and Jedi. "Balance" is no Sith.


After destroying the Jedi.




> Yoir claims are headcanon. You can have your own headcanon, that's perfectly fine, but you can't present it as fact.


Sure. I'm presenting my opinions as an interpretation of the work itself. Not what other people have said the work is about. And when you do this, you see a pretty clear pattern.

I'm suggesting that while different characters may think this, or that, and may even declare those things as "fact" (which inevitably are repeated as canon), from a pure storytelling point of view, those statements don't always match up with what actually happened, nor are they the only (much less best) explanation of things.

----------


## Fyraltari

> After destroying the Jedi.


He didn't destroy the Jedi, though.
As Anakin died there remained:
-One (1) Jedi and
-Zero (0) Sith.

That a Jedi-to-Sith ratio of infinity. If the Balance is to make the number of Sith and Jedi equal, he failed to do that.


Damn, it's almost as if the whole Prophecy of the Chosen One who will bring Balance to the Force, was a weird retcon that doesn't fit with the original movies. Imagine that.

----------


## Mechalich

> Damn, it's almost as if the whole Prophecy of the Chosen One who will bring Balance to the Force, was a weird retcon that doesn't fit with the original movies. Imagine that.


It's more that 'balance' was really bad word choice. 'Harmony,' in common usage, is much closer to what Lucas was trying to get at. The Sith, by actively using the dark side, introduce dissonance to the rhythm of galactic life, when they are removed, everything becomes clear again. 




> I was referring to the characters in the novel "Unifying Force" . I suppose they were a subset of Jedi. George Lucas went out of his way to repudiate the novel's take on the Force.


By the conclusion of the New Jedi Order series, the Jedi Order, through the vehicle of Jacen Solo - who was a BDH in said war - incorporated a great deal of philosophy and teaching that he had in turn received from Vergere. These teachings were primarily developed in the NJO novel _Traitor_, by Matthew Stover, the published SW author who probably objects to the standard interpretation of the Force the most. He is on record as saying he does not believe in evil, which renders the idea of the dark side kind of impossible. 

In order to repudiate Vergere's entire philosophy it was subsequently revealed that 'she was a Sith the whole time!' and had been corrupting Jacen Solo from the start. Then Jacen too fell to the dark side and Luke and the other masters made a command decision to abandon everything they'd experimented with that could be traced to this whole line of thought. The whole thing was handled very poorly, as was the case of more latter-period Del Rey novel line works, but the overall point is quite clear. 

The concept of 'Gray Jedi' has an extremely checkered history in the EU, and has at least two distinct meanings. First, it's an in-universe pejorative term used by Jedi in good standing to describe those who are playing it fast and loose and even occasionally drawing on the dark side but not yet fully corrupted, sort of like 'crooked cop.' Second, its a term describing either individuals or whole traditions that manage to somehow operate between like and dark. Lucas was, indeed, very much against this, as quoted on the relevant wookieepedia page. Still, examples persist of this kind of behavior throughout the EU. In particular, both the Jensaarai and Imperial Knights offer the possibility of groups that draw on the dark side but resist corruption because they have been sufficiently indoctrinated to place group loyalty and a higher goal above everything. 

This actually matches Sith philosophy, in which absolute loyalty to a master or cause inhibits development because that is a selfless position even when the cause is morally bankrupt and the dark side is selfish. Darth Bane mused on this when developing the Rule of Two, and rejected attempting to build a New Sith Empire for precisely this reason, because the needs of a great Empire full of Sith meant the resulting Sith were inevitably weak.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Mechalich*
> _Lucas was, indeed, very much against this, as quoted on the relevant wookieepedia page._


Where is the Lucas quote on that page?  

The closest I can find is a line from someone in the Lucasfilm Story Group, which is attributed by footnote to a few other lines on Twitter.  That tells me what this guy on Twitter thinks, but its a long way from a direct quote by Lucas himself.

----------


## Peelee

> He didn't destroy the Jedi, though.
> As Anakin died there remained:
> -One (1) Jedi


Kenobi and Yoda make two, and that's in the films alone. There's also Kanan Jarrus, Cal Kestis, Ahsoka Tano all left alive after the Jedi Purge. So far. In current canon, old Canon had significantly more.

What was that again about Anakin ever bringing balance by destroying the Jedi?

ETA: Oh, you said as Anakin died. My bad. That leaves Luke and Ahsoka. And Ezra Bridger. And, again, so far and in current canon.

----------


## dancrilis

> Anakin canonically brought balance by destroying the Sith when he killed Palpatine and died. "Balance" is not equal parts Sith and Jedi. "Balance" is no Sith.


I believe that might be Lucas canon - but Lucas canon only covers the Original Trilogy and the Prequel Trilogy.

Outside of those elements in both continuities the Sith continued to exist.

Frankly Lucas canon might have a lot going for it, but perhaps it could be streamlined further to be merely the Original Trilogy which happily gets rid of the prophecy all together (along with a lot of other items).

Outside of Lucas canon then in both continuities the prophecy seems to be much more open to interpretation - and even in Lucas canon (but ignoring his own words) Yoda does indicate the prophecy could have been misread.

Disney canon does have text of the prophecy - remarkable unhelpful text.

*Spoiler: Prophecy Text - From Master & Apprentice*
Show


"A Chosen One shall come, born of no father, and through him will ultimate balance in the Force be restored."



Everything else in-universe (and out) seems to be interpretation rather then hard fact (unless working with Lucas canon in which case the text is non-canon anyway).

----------


## Peelee

> I believe that might be Lucas canon - but Lucas canon only covers the Original Trilogy and the Prequel Trilogy.
> 
> Outside of those elements in both continuities the Sith continued to exist.


Never let it be said that I didn't think the canon was stupid. Frankly, the whole "no father birth" thing is ridiculous to start with, and the universe doesn't mold itself strictly to Jedi and Sith regardless in old or new canon which makes "balance" not really make sense in any event, and the whole idea of having a prophecy introduced well into the main Saga for no reason whatsoever was also pretty ****ing dumb, and...

Well, you know what they say about Star Wars fans.

----------


## Aeson

> It's more that 'balance' was really bad word choice. 'Harmony,' in common usage, is much closer to what Lucas was trying to get at.


 "To bring into or be at a healthy or harmonious equilibrium" is a perfectly serviceable definition of 'balance' in common usage - or do you believe that a balanced diet is one comprised of equal mass fractions of everything in it, a balanced lifestyle is one where you spend 84 hours a week working, an ecosystem in balance is one where there's a shark for every minnow? "Balance" does not mean a strict numerical parity in common usage - especially not in fuzzier contexts than finance or chemistry.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

Prophetic visions of the future are perfectly in line with the original films, Luke gets at least one and possibly more. It's a thing that Jedi can do (or more accurately, that happens to Jedi on occasion, since they don't seem to do it on command.)

----------


## Peelee

> Prophetic visions of the future are perfectly in line with the original films, Luke gets at least one and possibly more. It's a thing that Jedi can do (or more accurately, that happens to Jedi on occasion, since they don't seem to do it on command.)


Prophetic visions of the future that may or may not come to pass, yes. Incredibly specifically worded predictions that are absolutely immutable, no. And everyone treats it as the latter.

----------


## The Glyphstone

> Kenobi and Yoda make two, and that's in the films alone. There's also Kanan Jarrus, Cal Kestis, Ahsoka Tano all left alive after the Jedi Purge. So far. In current canon, old Canon had significantly more.
> 
> What was that again about Anakin ever bringing balance by destroying the Jedi?
> 
> ETA: Oh, you said as Anakin died. My bad. That leaves Luke and Ahsoka. And Ezra Bridger. And, again, so far and in current canon.


So many Jedi were retconned to have secretly survived the Purge, I think they outnumber the ones who were actually killed. :Small Cool:

----------


## Peelee

> So many Jedi were retconned to have secretly survived the Purge, I think they outnumber the ones who were actually killed.


Give it a few years and it won't even be close.  :Small Wink:

----------


## Mechalich

> So many Jedi were retconned to have secretly survived the Purge, I think they outnumber the ones who were actually killed.


Legends got up to ~200 survivors of Order 66, with a much small number of purge survivors in 0 ABY. Still, assuming ~5000 Knights+Masters, 2000+ Padawans, 5000+ Initiates, and 20000-40000 Service Corps members at the moment the order was issued, Palpatine's extermination was about as good as can be expected. The number of Order 66 survivors who actually served alongside the Rebellion is quite small and most of them are found in extremely obscure sources, a pattern that seems to be holding for Disney. For example, the board game Imperial Assault includes surviving Padawan Diala Passil, who will almost certainly never be referenced again, ever. Disney has continued the practice, started in Legends, of allowing sources that really don't need to be canon - such as video game add-ons, board games, card games, and now mobile games. This means the galaxy fills up with a whole bunch of stuff that no one really bothered to think about which is technically canon but by convention ignored.

----------


## Peelee

> The number of Order 66 survivors who actually served alongside the Rebellion is quite small and most of them are found in extremely obscure sources, a pattern that seems to be holding for Disney.


All of my examples were from mainline TV shows and heavily advertised AAA games. To the best of my knowledge Disney has yet to unveil surviving Jedi in "obscure" sources like card games or the like.

----------


## Fyraltari

> ETA: Oh, you said as Anakin died. My bad. That leaves Luke and Ahsoka. And Ezra Bridger. And, again, so far and in current canon.


Aye, but the Prophecy was created for the Prequels, with the notion that Luke would be, as Yoda put it "The last of the Jedi", so I don't find the survival of other Jedi in expanded universe stuff to be all that relevant in trying to figure out what it means.

----------


## Peelee

> Aye, but the Prophecy was created for the Prequels, with the notion that Luke would be, as Yoda put it "The last of the Jedi", so I don't find the survival of other Jedi in expanded universe stuff to be all that relevant in trying to figure out what it means.


If we're going to act like what the notion of Star Wars was like when X was created by Lucas then we'll practically need to review the case as each movie came out. Dude was all over the place about what his vision was.

----------


## Sapphire Guard

Qui Gon treats the prophecy as immutable because he has non standard Jedi beliefs in fate, everyone else is much more hesitant. They're not sure if Anakin is the chosen one, or if it would be a good idea to train him even if he is.

There's nothing wrong with the prophecy narratively.




> If we're going to act like what the notion of Star Wars was like when X was created by Lucas then we'll practically need to review the case as each movie came out. Dude was all over the place about what his vision was.


Some things were solid, like Obi Wan and Anakin fighting on a volcano. Other things were subject to change. Y'know, the same way that any piece of media ever is written. 

Yoda's line does not preclude other Jedi existing just that he doesn't know of any, which is fine. He's been on Dagobah alone for thirty years. Order 66 doesn't have to be universal, just good enough to ensure that the Jedi are not a power that can challenge the Empire.

Rebels screws that over by having him have contact with Ahsoka and Ezra, but that is the fault of the Rebels writers who could never resist a cameo no matter how damaging it was to their story.

----------


## The Glyphstone

I'll just be happy over here with my fan-reimagining of the Force being divided between Order and Chaos rather than Good and Evil, with the Jedi/Sith conflict being Lawful Good vs. Chaotic Evil.

----------


## Peelee

> Qui Gon treats the prophecy as immutable because he has non standard Jedi beliefs in fate, everyone else is much more hesitant. They're not sure if Anakin is the chosen one, or if it would be a good idea to train him even if he is.


Everyone treats it as inetivable. The biggest source of disagreement is that Yoda thinks it may have been misinterpreted, but nobody says or acts in any way like it may not come to pass. 



> There's nothing wrong with the prophecy narratively.


There is. It contradicts what we are explicitly told about prophetic visions in preceding movies. Further, we know the results of those preceding movies so it adds nothing of any value to the narrative except a cheap and uneccesary plot device that is only used to justify Anakin being trained and then never referenced again until two movies later at the very end with a single line, which again could have easily been left out without changing anything narratively. It also makes the original movies retroactively strange for never referencing it in any way whatsoever.

You can like it, that's perfectly fine. But that doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with it narratively.



> Some things were solid, like Obi Wan and Anakin fighting on a volcano. Other things were subject to change. Y'know, the same way that any piece of media ever is written. 
> 
> Yoda's line does not preclude other Jedi existing just that he doesn't know of any, which is fine. He's been on Dagobah alone for thirty years. Order 66 doesn't have to be universal, just good enough to ensure that the Jedi are not a power that can challenge the Empire.


Ok? That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, for example, Lucas giving interviews explicitly stating that being a Jedi was like being a martial artist and anyone could do it with teaching and training and discipline, or Lucas giving interviews explicitly stating that Yoda, as a Jedi Master, could not do any of the things a Jedi Knight could do and was more of a "those who cannot do, teach" type of position. 

You know, things that he directly said on the record about his own universe and then changed completely. Not in-universe characters being wrong. That's fine.

----------


## gbaji

> He didn't destroy the Jedi, though.
> As Anakin died there remained:
> -One (1) Jedi and
> -Zero (0) Sith.
> 
> That a Jedi-to-Sith ratio of infinity. If the Balance is to make the number of Sith and Jedi equal, he failed to do that.


He removed the Jedi as a power in the galaxy. It's the organization, not the people.




> Damn, it's almost as if the whole Prophecy of the Chosen One who will bring Balance to the Force, was a weird retcon that doesn't fit with the original movies. Imagine that.


It fits perfectly well with the original trilogy. It's all the stuff written off to the sides, and since the prequels that have messed things up. If we left all of that out, and just look at the 6 films, we have a galaxy spaning Jedi organization destroyed completely. Then we have the empire run by the Sith (which at that point was *just* Vader and Palpatine) also destroyed. That leaves Luke as pretty much the last man standing, with neither "side" really having much power and prominence at all.

And... then we toss in more stuff and kinda muck around with it.





> So many Jedi were retconned to have secretly survived the Purge, I think they outnumber the ones who were actually killed.



That's how fan service works though. People like the Jedi. So they create Jedi. It's not a shocking marketing concept. It's also exactly what happens in a fantasy world with shows and fims, often with very different writers and creative teams on each.

And yeah, it's almost like (very much like in fact) the folks writing for the films have one "vision" of things, and the folks writing the various series have very very different ones. The latter keep adding stuff to the universe, and the former keep eliminating them. If you didn't get this point when Episode 7 basically says "Yeah, Luke created the Jedi academy, then things went horribly wrong and he abandoned the whole concept", then in Episode 8, when he directly states that he has no intention of recreating the Jedi (like he views them as a failed branch in force use which should be trimmed from the force tree or something), just in case you missed it the first time. And then, in episode 9, we get the same kind of "we're just going to stop this nonsense right now" bit with Rey and Kylo wiping out the remnants of the Sith as well.

The films themselves create a very clear balance and conflict between Jedi and Sith, and pretty resounding "resolve" it by destroying both as any sort of glaxy influencing power. The fact that we have individual Jedi and individual Sith pop up all over the place in all the other media portrayals in between the start and finish of those films timeline wise, doesn't really change that overall theme at all. Those characters are basically noise in the line of the larger story IMO.

And yeah, I happen to like viewing it that way, because it holds out the promise (maybe) of new stories in this world, which don't just revolve around Sith and Jedi, but can introduce completely different force use, with completely different rules, and that aren't also just "Jedi/Sith adjacent" like what we've seen so far (aligning with "light/dark"). Of course, my suspicion is that they'll bend to whatever fan focus appears to lead them to the most money, so we'll likely just get more Sith and Jedi (or very similar with maybe different names) going forward anyway. Would be nice though...

----------


## gbaji

> There is. It contradicts what we are explicitly told about prophetic visions in preceding movies. Further, we know the results of those preceding movies so it adds nothing of any value to the narrative except a cheap and uneccesary plot device that is only used to justify Anakin being trained and then never referenced again until two movies later at the very end with a single line, which again could have easily been left out without changing anything narratively. It also makes the original movies retroactively strange for never referencing it in any way whatsoever.
> 
> You can like it, that's perfectly fine. But that doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with it narratively.


Er. Unless you accept that the force needed to be "balanced" by destroying the Jedi Order. They were what was "unbalanced" in the first place. Mace Windu speculates on this at some point (can't remember if it was ep2 or ep3). Not specifically that they are the problem, but more that he's uncomfortable with what they have become as an organization.

It's very very clear that by the events in the prequel's the Jedi order has become a strong arm force of the Republic, and have very much "lost their way", even if many within the order don't realize it. Long before Anakin or Palpatine comes along, they've become their own worse enemy. The prophesy exists to let the audience in on this fact (the force itself is acting against them). Everything "fits" if you view it that way. It does not if you view it as some false thing that was just "wrong" or something because Anakin didn't do anything of the sort.

What was the statement Rich made? Instead of interpreting things in a way that doesn't work, why not interpret them in a way that does? Interpreting the prophesy the way I do makes things work. If we assume that it was the Jedi themselves who were the problem, then the force "balancing" things would fit what happened. And yeah, we can extend that logic to include the sequels and conclude that perhaps this is precisely why Luke decides not to re-create the Jedi. Again. That all "fits".

----------


## Peelee

> Er. Unless you accept that the force needed to be "balanced" by destroying the Jedi Order.


Did it though? Did the Force also need to be "balanced" by forming a fasctistic empire? Or blowing up a planet? Or were these ancillary to destroying the Sith, which could easily have bee n the only requirement?

The Jedi only _needed_ to be balanced if you assume that they needed to be. If you assume that only the Sith needed to be destroyed, then you get exactly the same result, but with the Jedi also being destroyed as an entirely irrelevant aside.

----------


## dehro

My observation would be that Anakin did destroy the Jedi...Order.
Surviving members would be Jedi without a clubhouse... Force users who stick (or don't) to the old rules, but it's a self imposed code of conduct that doesn't have a central authority to regulate it and is left entirely to the single force wielder.
Bureaucratically speaking, after Anakin, the Jedi are no more.

----------


## Peelee

> My observation would be that Anakin did destroy the Jedi...Order.
> Surviving members would be Jedi without a clubhouse... Force users who stick (or don't) to the old rules, but it's a self imposed code of conduct that doesn't have a central authority to regulate it and is left entirely to the single force wielder.
> Bureaucratically speaking, after Anakin, the Jedi are no more.


Ahhh, the best kinds of prophecies. Bureaucratically translated ones! :Small Tongue:

----------


## The Glyphstone

> Ahhh, the best kinds of prophecies. Bureaucratically translated ones!


Right up there with philosophically foiled prophecies.

"No man can slay me!"

"But is this sword really a man? Even if it is wielded by a man, can it be said that the man is slaying you, and not the society that forged and shaped that man as he forged the sword in hand? And what is 'slaying' anyways? Can any of us claim to die when we have never truly lived, and when all the atoms that compose our forms shall endure after this particular arrangement ceases to be?"

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Technically correct is the best form of correctness, obviously!  :Small Wink:

----------


## Fyraltari

Who else wants Jabba to show up in season ?

----------


## Mechalich

> Who else wants Jabba to show up in season ?


Existing reporting is that Tony Gilroy intends to structure season two in four arcs each with a one year time jump between them (including a skip between the final episode of season one and the first episode of season two), meaning they'll be a 4 BBY arc, a 3 BBY arc, a 2 BBY arc, and an 'immediately prior to Rogue One' finale. 

Jabba is certainly possible, if only in one arc. Actually, there's a logical way to include everyone's favorite Hutt: money laundering. A major portion of season one focused on various efforts to secure funding for the Rebellion, but once they have the credits, they need to turn them into guns and ships, and that's something the Hutt Clans are capable of doing. The trick would be to bring in Jabba in a way that doesn't wreck the tone. He, and Hutts generally, tend toward broad, languid portrayals - this is appropriate, beings with 1000 year lifespans are not in a hurry - while Andor as a series is very tight and hard-edged.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Existing reporting is that Tony Gilroy intends to structure season two in four arcs each with a one year time jump between them (including a skip between the final episode of season one and the first episode of season two), meaning they'll be a 4 BBY arc, a 3 BBY arc, a 2 BBY arc, and an 'immediately prior to Rogue One' finale. 
> 
> Jabba is certainly possible, if only in one arc. Actually, there's a logical way to include everyone's favorite Hutt: money laundering. A major portion of season one focused on various efforts to secure funding for the Rebellion, but once they have the credits, they need to turn them into guns and ships, and that's something the Hutt Clans are capable of doing. The trick would be to bring in Jabba in a way that doesn't wreck the tone. He, and Hutts generally, tend toward broad, languid portrayals - this is appropriate, beings with 1000 year lifespans are not in a hurry - while Andor as a series is very tight and hard-edged.


We already have Mon Mothma in bed with a criminal figure, I do't actually think we need to involve Jabba, I just found Diego Luna's... interest in the character funny.

----------


## Peelee

> Existing reporting is that Tony Gilroy intends to structure season two in four arcs each with a one year time jump between them (including a skip between the final episode of season one and the first episode of season two), meaning they'll be a 4 BBY arc, a 3 BBY arc, a 2 BBY arc, and an 'immediately prior to Rogue One' finale. 
> 
> Jabba is certainly possible, if only in one arc. Actually, there's a logical way to include everyone's favorite Hutt: money laundering. A major portion of season one focused on various efforts to secure funding for the Rebellion, but once they have the credits, they need to turn them into guns and ships, and that's something the Hutt Clans are capable of doing. The trick would be to bring in Jabba in a way that doesn't wreck the tone. He, and Hutts generally, tend toward broad, languid portrayals - this is appropriate, beings with 1000 year lifespans are not in a hurry - while Andor as a series is very tight and hard-edged.


Money laundering is only for entities that need to appear credible (eg Imperial Senator Mon Mothma). A Rebellion isn't exactly going to be sending its tax forms off to the Imperial Revenue Service.

----------


## Algeh

> Money laundering is only for entities that need to appear credible (eg Imperial Senator Mon Mothma). A Rebellion isn't exactly going to be sending its tax forms off to the Imperial Revenue Service.


Yes, but they might need to funnel the money to credible-looking shell companies to buy weapons and ships with it, if the manufacturers are aboveboard and there are restrictions on who is allowed to buy such things. They probably can't just anonymously pay cash for a big pile of military-grade weapons from a regular manufacturer, although I suppose that would be setting-dependent and I don't actually know much about weapon regulations in the Star Wars universe.

----------


## Mechalich

> Yes, but they might need to funnel the money to credible-looking shell companies to buy weapons and ships with it, if the manufacturers are aboveboard and there are restrictions on who is allowed to buy such things. They probably can't just anonymously pay cash for a big pile of military-grade weapons from a regular manufacturer, although I suppose that would be setting-dependent and I don't actually know much about weapon regulations in the Star Wars universe.


Legends actually went into this in some detail. The Empire did in fact maintain restrictions on weaponry and ships, specifically differentiating between civilian and military markets. Dedicated military gear was at least in theory not available for sale to the public and possessing such weapons or ships was illegal, though obviously enforcement was spotty. We actually see this in Andor, when the Empire stops Luthen over Segra Milo. The reason he can't allow them to board isn't for fear of them discovering Rebel secrets or contraband, but that the _ship itself_ and the various weapons modifications he unveils to escape are highly illegal and a boarding party would notice that, as Cassian noticed the ship was abnormal during his short time aboard.

----------


## pendell

> Money laundering is only for entities that need to appear credible (eg Imperial Senator Mon Mothma). A Rebellion isn't exactly going to be sending its tax forms off to the Imperial Revenue Service.


The bulk of the high technology and industry in the galaxy is in the core. Purchases of military equipment or even stuff that has military uses -- precursor chemicals for explosives , say -- would be monitored even in laid-back societies, and the Empire isn't one of those. It's a totalitarian police state with a security bureau to go with it. Naturally there will be close attention paid in the core, and the Rebellion -- founded by dissident senators, remember -- can't function without an organization there to support the military wing in the outer rim.

Even in the Outer Rim, where we would expect things to be less intense, the Rebellion would be well advised to keep a low profile. The Empire can't be so foolish as to not have a method for receiving anonymous tips and paying out monetary rewards for information received -- that's a lot of what the job of a bounty hunter is. So even in the Outer Rim, Rebel agents would be well advise to go undercover as much as possible, if they don't want Death Squadron dropping into orbit.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The bulk of the high technology and industry in the galaxy is in the core. Purchases of military equipment or even stuff that has military uses -- precursor chemicals for explosives , say -- would be monitored even in laid-back societies, and the Empire isn't one of those. It's a totalitarian police state with a security bureau to go with it. Naturally there will be close attention paid in the core, and the Rebellion -- founded by dissident senators, remember -- can't function without an organization there to support the military wing in the outer rim.
> 
> Even in the Outer Rim, where we would expect things to be less intense, the Rebellion would be well advised to keep a low profile. The Empire can't be so foolish as to not have a method for receiving anonymous tips and paying out monetary rewards for information received -- that's a lot of what the job of a bounty hunter is. So even in the Outer Rim, Rebel agents would be well advise to go undercover as much as possible, if they don't want Death Squadron dropping into orbit.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Brian P.


Saw's Partisans already got their hands on a few X-Wings so there evidently are channels in place.

It's also very likely that the Imperial industrial-military complex is just as prone to corruption and incompetence as the rest of their system. And there's the sheer scale of the thing. How many star destroyers does the Empire even have? Too many to easily keep track of, that's for sure. Funnelling enough ships to equip a decently sized guerilla force can definitely be done by someone with Luthen's level of skills.

----------


## Mechalich

> Saw's Partisans already got their hands on a few X-Wings so there evidently are channels in place.


X-wings are produced by Incom, which is the same military corporation that made ARC-170s and a bunch of other Clone Wars ships. They designed the X-wing hoping the Empire would buy it, but the Empire decided on TIEs instead. However, Incom still had a license to sell it to planetary defense forces and other quasi-independent security organizations - like the corporation security Syril worked for, they had ships - which meant that various rebel groups could clandestinely purchase them through various schemes.




> It's also very likely that the Imperial industrial-military complex is just as prone to corruption and incompetence as the rest of their system. And there's the sheer scale of the thing. How many star destroyers does the Empire even have? Too many to easily keep track of, that's for sure. Funnelling enough ships to equip a decently sized guerilla force can definitely be done by someone with Luthen's level of skills.


The Empire had ~25,000 Imperial-class Star Destroyers at its height, which meant that, given the existence of various variants in the class like Tector-class, Procursator-class, Interdictor-class and so forth, it probably had more like 27,500-30,000 'Star Destroyer Class' ships. There were no more than a few hundred larger vessels - battlecruisers and dreadnaughts, but there were millions of small ships in the cruiser, frigate, and corvette classes (the Anaxes War College System uses 7 capital ship classes, Star Destroyer is the 5th).

The Empire generally could keep track of the big ships like Star Destroyers - which, notably, require tens of thousands of people to crew and therefore aren't actually that useful to the Rebellion - but lost smaller ships all the time. The Rebellion mostly focused on acquiring smaller vessels that could at least plausibly be owned by corporations or planetary defense forces like corvettes and frigates. The fleet deployed to the Battle of Scarif in Rogue One is actually a good illustration of this. Many Rebel ships were also older vessels that had officially been scrapped, with the paperwork falsified. This is something we see in Andor as well, though in regard to parts as opposed to whole vessels: Ferrix's primary industry is shipbreaking, and that's why Bix has Rebel contacts in the first place.

----------


## Peelee

> The bulk of the high technology and industry in the galaxy is in the core. Purchases of military equipment or even stuff that has military uses -- precursor chemicals for explosives , say -- would be monitored even in laid-back societies, and the Empire isn't one of those. It's a totalitarian police state with a security bureau to go with it. Naturally there will be close attention paid in the core, and the Rebellion -- founded by dissident senators, remember -- can't function without an organization there to support the military wing in the outer rim.


Dude. This is the thread for Andor, so lets use Andor as an example. In the first episode, we learn that Andor, a very minor part-time scrap dealer who is pretty low on the totem pole of his backwater planet, has managed to procure an Imperial Starpath unit. We don't know what exactly that is, but we know it is an incredibly expensive piece of military equipment important enough to get to pretty high echelons of the Imperial version of the CIA - at least, it is like four episodes later when they first learn that he had it, since they didn't any any idea before then. Your version of an Empire that has everything on lockdown just plain doesn't line up.

The Rebellion can buy starfighters and proton torpedoes so long as they have the cash for it. Hell, it's not even that hard to imagine some justification for it. Incom sells X-Wings to Planet Piratia for their planet defense fleet because they have a pirate problem. Admiral Brassman sells some of them at a markup to the Rebellion and then re-orders from Incom saying "oh no the pirates sure are tough they destroyed some of our ships looks like we need more". Or, hey, let's make it simpler. They have an Imperial agent on their payroll to help obfuscate some purchases that would otherwise be caught. Since, ya know, this is the Andor thread and hey we already see the Rebels have an agent in that same high echelon of the CIA that I just mentioned a few sentences ago.

The Star Wars galaxy black market does not work the way you think it works.



> Even in the Outer Rim, where we would expect things to be less intense, the Rebellion would be well advised to keep a low profile.


I think there may be some fundamental disagreements here on what exactly you think the purpose of a rebellion is.



> The Empire can't be so foolish as to not have a method for receiving anonymous tips and paying out monetary rewards for information received -- that's a lot of what the job of a bounty hunter is.


That is neither the job of a bounty hunter in real life (one who brings bail jumpers back to the municipality they are wanted in) nor in Star Wars.



> So even in the Outer Rim, Rebel agents would be well advise to go undercover as much as possible, if they don't want Death Squadron dropping into orbit.


Rebel agents _do_ go undercover. Do you think that they just walk into the corporate Incom office and say, "Hello, my name is John Insurrectionist and I would like to buy some weapons of mass destruction with this large back of cash"? Also, Death Squadron isn't dropping into orbit to chase down any given lead. Hell, that's not even going to warrant a Star Destroyer. In fact, we see what warrants Death Squadron dropping into orbit - the Emperor's right-hand man tasked with finding the headquarters of the rebellion and who wants to personally find the person who blew up the most powerful space station ever built, and also who happens to be his son.

Not the guy buying a few snubfighters clandestinely (which can be done, your assertions otherwise notwithstanding).

ETA:



> the Rebellion -- founded by dissident senators, remember


I assume by "the Rebellion", you mean the Rebel _Alliance_, which has multiple founding members as it's an alliance of multiple disparate groups that eventually came together to form a unified front. In Andor, this has not happened yet, and we both see and hear of multiple different factions operating either independently or with minimal cooperation.

----------


## Aeson

> The Empire had ~25,000 Imperial-class Star Destroyers  at its height, which meant that, given the existence of various  variants in the class like Tector-class, Procursator-class,  Interdictor-class and so forth, it probably had more like 27,500-30,000  'Star Destroyer Class' ships. There were no more than a few hundred  larger vessels - battlecruisers and dreadnaughts, but there were  millions of small ships in the cruiser, frigate, and corvette classes  (the Anaxes War College System uses 7 capital ship classes, Star Destroyer is the 5th).


_Tector_- and _Interdictor_-class Star Destroyers appear to be subclasses of the _Imperial_/_Imperator_  class, so unless something in the source of that figure specifically  addresses this it's an open question if they'd be counted separately; the _Procursator_ class, meanwhile, is to the best of my knowledge only  dubiously canonical and only appeared, mostly or entirely unidentified,  in a handful of official contexts outside of the Databank in the old EU / Legends continuity. If you want  to argue for thousands of Star Destroyers beyond the "about 25,000"  Imperial Star Destroyers, then you should probably be using something  incontrovertably canonical that ought to have been built in significant  numbers, like the _Venator_, or at least a well-established and well-known EU design that appears fairly regularly in both continuities, like the _Victory_.

Also, given the likely scale of the production run for _Venator_-class  Star Destroyers and their probable mid-Clone Wars introduction into  service, I'm inclined to think that 30,000 ships across all Star  Destroyer types is a very conservative estimate. The _Acclamator_-class Assault Ship and the _Venator_-class  Star Destroyer are the only two Republic-aligned major combatant types  featured in the entire Prequel Trilogy (for comparison, there's at least four CIS-affiliated major combatant types in the Prequel Trilogy - possibly five or six, if you count the _Hardcell_s as major combatants and Core ships separately from _Lucrehulk_s), and given that the _Acclamator_ is to my recollection entirely absent from _Revenge of the Sith_ while the _Venator_  appears to fill largely the same role and first appears in that film, this would  seem to imply that the _Venator_ was produced in sufficient numbers to allow the near-total withdrawal of the _Acclamator_  - itself presumably a modern and reasonably-capable major combatant built in significant numbers in the early part of the war and the decade leading up to it - from service inside of three years in the  midst of a major galaxy-spanning conflict. Given their likely  mid-Clone Wars introduction into service, none of these ships should be  more than twenty-five years old by the time the first Death Star blows  up, which even by the standards of turn-of-the-century predreadnought  battleships only puts them at or just beyond the end of their service  lives - and right in the middle of it by the standard of a lot of other  historical major combatants, so even if they're not still in active  service, if only in secondary roles or low-priority areas (where, it  should be noted, EU material tended to place _Victory_ Star Destroyers in Imperial service, and as a ship that notionally entered into service in the late Clone Wars the _Victory_ class should be a pretty close contemporary of the _Venator_ - and, given its absence in _RotS_ and the fact that the Empire's Star Destroyer of choice _also_  notionally began entering service towards the end of the Clone Wars,  probably had a significantly more limited production run than the _Venator_), there should at least be a lot of them in the Empire's equivalent of the mothball fleet.

----------


## hamishspence

> _Tector_- and _Interdictor_-class Star Destroyers appear to be subclasses of the _Imperial_/_Imperator_  class, so unless something in the source of that figure specifically  addresses this it's an open question if they'd be counted separately;


The Official Fact File (issue 44) counts Imperial-Is separately from Imperial-IIs.




> *Imperial Star Destroyer*
> In the depths of space, the vast, arrowhead wedge of an Imperial Star Destroyer symbolised the Empire's dominion of terror throughout the galaxy.
> 
> In order to enforce the will of Emperor Palpatine across the galactic reaches, the Imperial Starfleet required a vessel of unprecedented size and power. Such a starship would be capable of subduing cities, perhaps even entire continents and whole worlds, without the deployment of a massive fleet. Fortunately for the Imperial Navy, such a ship already existed. Built in small numbers from the opening year of the Clone Wars, the _Imperator-_class Star Destroyer was the replacement for the rather rushed _Victory-_class model. Designed by Lira Blissex, daughter of Walex Blissex who created the _Victory-_class among others, the _Imperator-_class showed early promise and was quickly decided on as the Star Destroyer of choice for the Empire. This was in no small measure because of its earlier limited deployment - it didn't have the association with the Republic that the _Venator-_class did. Production of the Republic's warships ceased, and Kuat Drive Yards went into full production of the re-named _Imperial I_-class Star Destroyer.
> 
> *A Vast Fleet*
> By the fall of the Empire, it was estimated that well over 25,000 such Star Destroyers had been constructed and put into service, along with many thousands of _Imperial II_-class ships - the even more powerful successor to the_ Imperial I-_class that started its service a little before the Battle of Yavin.


"Unprecedented size and power" in this case means for a _line unit_ - a "backbone of the fleet" ship, as opposed to the much rarer battlecruisers and dreadnoughts.

----------


## Mechalich

> Given their likely  mid-Clone Wars introduction into service, none of these ships should be  more than twenty-five years old by the time the first Death Star blows  up, which even by the standards of turn-of-the-century predreadnought  battleships only puts them at or just beyond the end of their service  lives - and right in the middle of it by the standard of a lot of other  historical major combatants, so even if they're not still in active  service, if only in secondary roles or low-priority areas (where, it  should be noted, EU material tended to place _Victory_ Star Destroyers in Imperial service, and as a ship that notionally entered into service in the late Clone Wars the _Victory_ class should be a pretty close contemporary of the _Venator_ - and, given its absence in _RotS_ and the fact that the Empire's Star Destroyer of choice _also_  notionally began entering service towards the end of the Clone Wars,  probably had a significantly more limited production run than the _Venator_), there should at least be a lot of them in the Empire's equivalent of the mothball fleet.


Most of the Venators were probably recycled into ISDs. The nature of the Star Wars economy is materials-limited. The barrier to making lots of stuff isn't labor, or energy, but the actual quantities of goods like durasteel and all the other various fictional materials that make up Star Wars tech, and the best source of that is actually pre-existing ships. Presumably there a lot of places like Ferrix, where Venators were torn apart and their components were shipped back to Kuat and other shipyards to be made into ISDs (or, alternatively, made into part of the Death Stars). It's entirely probable that there are various turbolasers, shield generators, hull plates, etc. roaming about the Imperial fleet that have cycled through a dozen different ships.

----------


## pendell

> Dude. This is the thread for Andor, so lets use Andor as an example. In the first episode, we learn that Andor, a very minor part-time scrap dealer who is pretty low on the totem pole of his backwater planet, has managed to procure an Imperial Starpath unit. We don't know what exactly that is, but we know it is an incredibly expensive piece of military equipment important enough to get to pretty high echelons of the Imperial version of the CIA - at least, it is like four episodes later when they first learn that he had it, since they didn't any any idea before then. Your version of an Empire that has everything on lockdown just plain doesn't line up.


Anything is possible when you've got the right connections and contacts. Fyraltari has it right, now that I think of it -- corruption goes with despotism the way cheese goes with pizza. Probably has something to do with all the secrecy.  

I stand by my original statement, which was to counter your thesis:



> Money laundering is only for entities that need to appear credible (eg Imperial Senator Mon Mothma). A Rebellion isn't exactly going to be sending its tax forms off to the Imperial Revenue Service.


And yes, they need money laundering. And undercover operations.  And friends connected to friends both in  high places and in organized crime. Your next paragraph is a good example of this: 




> The Rebellion can buy starfighters and proton torpedoes so long as they have the cash for it. Hell, it's not even that hard to imagine some justification for it. Incom sells X-Wings to Planet Piratia for their planet defense fleet because they have a pirate problem. Admiral Brassman sells some of them at a markup to the Rebellion and then re-orders from Incom saying "oh no the pirates sure are tough they destroyed some of our ships looks like we need more". Or, hey, let's make it simpler. They have an Imperial agent on their payroll to help obfuscate some purchases that would otherwise be caught. Since, ya know, this is the Andor thread and hey we already see the Rebels have an agent in that same high echelon of the CIA that I just mentioned a few sentences ago.


You've outlined a classic scam of how a corrupt official sells off military parts and hardware to a non-questions-asked buyer -- which is quite believable -- and I'm puzzled why you think money laundering isn't needed in this.  

The Empire IS in lockdown -- it is a totalitarian dictatorship and the  ISB  does not sleep. That doesn't mean there aren't ways around its lockdown. In fact,  the very existence of secret police suggests a way of circumventing the security controls.  Just how much does an ISB bureaucrat earn?  And no matter how lavishly paid, is it enough for them to turn down the temptation to earn a little extra on the side by looking the other way or taking kickbacks from organized crime on the payroll as "informants"?  Possible, but it seems unlikely. The ideology of the Sith and the Empire is raw selfishness and narcissism; the Emperor sets the tone by being completely out for himself and willing to screw over business associates for his own gain.  It seems likely his subordinates would be cut from the same cloth. 





> I think there may be some fundamental disagreements here on what exactly you think the purpose of a rebellion is.


The purpose of the rebellion is to move through the three phases of insurgency -- terrorism, guerrilla warfare , conventional civil war -- culminating in the overthrow of the Imperial dictatorship and the restoration of the Republic Senate as the supreme governing body of the galaxy's largest polity.  We see it as an idea in episode 3 cut scene and in the novelization -- when Baal Organa, Mon Mothma, and several other senators see the way the wind is blowing and start building an underground organization for direct military action. This is the true beginning of the Rebel Alliance , and the reason it _ is_ an alliance. This is the core of the Rebel Alliance, although like any political group it will pick up all manner of fellow travellers like Saw Guerrerra who would otherwise never progress beyond terrorism.  

We see terrorism in Rogue One and in it's prequels.  The war transitions to the guerrilla phase with the raids on Eidu and Scarif in Rogue One, characterized by hit-and-run raids striking from a hidden base.  This continues up to Endor when we see the first time the Rebellion actually launches a conventional naval battle to destroy the Death Star, and this ends the war in Lucas' original films.




> That is neither the job of a bounty hunter in real life (one who brings bail jumpers back to the municipality they are wanted in) nor in Star Wars.


That is _one_ of the things they do. Sure, the bulk of the work in the US is bringing in bail jumpers, but there's more ways to earn that money than physically grabbing people and dragging them to the cops. I'm looking at a wanted poster for a very famous individual dating from the early 2000s , only two decades ago.  The key graph is the final sentence, and I'm putting the significant parts in italics: 




> The [government program deleted] is offering a reward of $25 million for _information leading directly  to the apprehension or conviction of_  [suspect ]


Information leading to the capture. 

In other words, you don't need to physically grab the guy to earn that $25 million. All you need to know is where they are, then drop a line to the authorities in the wanted poster. Watch the raid in the news.  In theory, you could do all this from your computer if you were good enough at tracking people.  

In addition to tipping off government agencies, you can tip off bounty hunters in exchange for a percentage of the bounty they get for the actual hauling in. 

Bounty hunting, you see, is about _intelligence_ first and foremost. It's not about having the muscle to collar a suspect; the police already have that.  It's the knowing where the person is to kick down the door that's worth all the money.  

Star Wars security agencies have to have at least that level of competence.  Wave a reward of any size and there's a number of desperate and ruthless people more than happy to make it their life's mission to earn it.  

We know the Empire employs bounty hunters of the more traditional sort,  but I have no doubt they are also willing to pay, and pay well, for any information on rebel hideouts and suspects.  




> Rebel agents _do_ go undercover. Do you think that they just walk into the corporate Incom office and say, "Hello, my name is John Insurrectionist and I would like to buy some weapons of mass destruction with this large back of cash"? Also, Death Squadron isn't dropping into orbit to chase down any given lead. Hell, that's not even going to warrant a Star Destroyer. In fact, we see what warrants Death Squadron dropping into orbit - the Emperor's right-hand man tasked with finding the headquarters of the rebellion and who wants to personally find the person who blew up the most powerful space station ever built, and also who happens to be his son.


The point is that the Empire has all manner of intelligence collection and they _will_ pay you a visit with force sufficient to be overwhelming.  So it's best to avoid their attention if at  all possible. 

Also, I note this person isn't in the movie Rogue One.  I suppose future seasons will tell his story, but the problem with any kind of illegal activity is you can't stay off the radar forever.  I would suggest that in gameplay terms you would need to lay out a significant amount of credits and make a lot of skill checks to remain hidden.  Sooner or later you roll a one,  or someone who knows you gets caught in a routine traffic stop, and then you either leg it off to the far end of space or spend the remainder of your life telling all you know to an interrogation droid.  

Also, I don't think the Rebellion can buy snubfighters from Incom any longer because  the company was nationalized .  Check me on this, but I thought they rescued the design team and have their own clandestine factories in the outer rim churning out X-wings.   That's a more reliable source of fighters and weapons than buying them on the black market -- sure, you can get used Z-95s and Clone Wars era trash that way, either bought from corrupt authorities or stolen, but that's a long way from the kind of mass-produced state-of-the-art craft you'll need to fight the Empire and win. 





> I assume by "the Rebellion", you mean the Rebel _Alliance_, which has multiple founding members as it's an alliance of multiple disparate groups that eventually came together to form a unified front. In Andor, this has not happened yet, and we both see and hear of multiple different factions operating either independently or with minimal cooperation.


As I said, the core of the rebel alliance is the alliance between the founding members of the Senate who, being politicians, also pick up fellow travelers and associates from anyone else who's going the same way.  That's what senators do:  to take many small competing factions and forge them into a coalition to achieve some singular goal; in this case, to restore the Republic.  At some point they will dissociate themselves from Saw's group but think better of that decision by the time of the R1 movie -- when you're facing off with a planet-killing abomination, you need to be able to forgive a little extremism, especially when they have the intelligence you need to help stop the monster. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Peelee

> Also, given the likely scale of the production run for _Venator_-class  Star Destroyers and their probable mid-Clone Wars introduction into  service


I would generally advise against critical thinking vis a vis "sense of scale" in the Star Wars universe. It's just not going to work out. Luas decided that "200,000 units, with a million more on the way" sounded nice and big when that is an absolute pittance for a galaxy-spanning empire where single worlds alone can house trillions, and then later commissioning five million more clones threatens to bankrupt the republic. 



> Presumably there a lot of places like Ferrix, where Venators were torn apart and their components were shipped back to Kuat and other shipyards to be made into ISDs (or, alternatively, made into part of the Death Stars).


Agreed. We also saw this on Bracca (Jedi: Fallen Order) and Karthon (The Mandalorian), and see recycled military equipment on Trask (The Mandalorian).

ETA: Pendell, OK that's way to much to address individually so I'm going to boil this down to two aspects - the main thesis s and how bounty hunting works.


> I stand by my original statement, which was to counter your thesis:
> 
> 
> And yes, they need money laundering.


No, they don't. The people they bribe or buy stuff from do. Again, the Rebellion isn't sending off their tax forms. This is as basic as I can make it. You need to launder if you're going to be audited. Nobody is auditing the Rebellion.

As for rewards for infirmation, that's not bounty hunting. Literally anyone can collect on that. Bounty hunters, in both Star Wars and real life, are a specific group of people with the specific job of physically bringing in people as warranted by the government (and in Star Wars as warranted by private citizens as well, of dubious legality). Collecting on a reward for information isn't bounty hunting any more than it is being a spy or a detective or a plumber.

----------


## Aeson

> I would generally advise against critical  thinking vis a vis "sense of scale" in the Star Wars universe. It's just  not going to work out. Luas decided that "200,000 units, with a million  more on the way" sounded nice and big when that is an absolute pittance  for a galaxy-spanning empire where single worlds alone can house  trillions, and then later commissioning five million more clones  threatens to bankrupt the republic.


There are supposed to be over a thousand _Venator_s at the Battle  of Coruscant alone. If you accept that various designs from the EU  exist and are in service in nontrivial numbers during the Clone Wars,  then their apparent absence suggests that the fleet over Coruscant does  not represent a significant part of the Republic Navy's active strength  or, in turn, of the total number of _Venator_s in service since  it's pretty unlikely that they'd be heavily concentrated into only a  couple formations where they entirely displace other ship types or that  of all the ships in all the formations able to respond to the attack on  Coruscant only the _Venator_s were actually recalled or arrived  in time to participate in the engagement. It might not be an entirely  reasonable scale for a galactic conflict, but it's a reasonable bet that  there's at least many thousand _Venator_s in active service at that point in the Clone Wars.





> Most  of the Venators were probably recycled into ISDs. The nature of the  Star Wars economy is materials-limited. The barrier to making lots of  stuff isn't labor, or energy, but the actual quantities of goods like  durasteel and all the other various fictional materials that make up  Star Wars tech, and the best source of that is actually pre-existing  ships. Presumably there a lot of places like Ferrix, where Venators were  torn apart and their components were shipped back to Kuat and other  shipyards to be made into ISDs (or, alternatively, made into part of the  Death Stars). It's entirely probable that there are various  turbolasers, shield generators, hull plates, etc. roaming about the  Imperial fleet that have cycled through a dozen different ships.





> Agreed. We also saw this on Bracca (Jedi: Fallen Order) and Karthon (The Mandalorian), and see recycled military equipment on Trask (The Mandalorian).


The big problem with this argument is that you then have to answer the  question of why so many other designs apparently survive so long in  significant numbers, at least according to a lot of EU material. _Victory_ Star Destroyers are not that much smaller than _Venator_s, fill basically the same role as the ISDs that the _Venator_s  are being replaced with, and given their absence from the movies and  the likely timing of the introduction into service of all three ship  types probably weren't built in significant numbers, comparatively  speaking - which should make them a prime candidate for scrapping,  because all those other ships that fill similar roles? They have lots of  spare parts sitting around or are in active production to replace the  ships with lots of spare parts lying around. _Dreadnought_ Heavy Cruisers are basically the same size as _Gladiator_ Star Destroyers and most likely fill essentially the same role, yet the Clone Wars-era _Dreadnought_'s  probably considerably better-known by virtue of appearing much more  often in EU material (and thus, implicitly, is that much more common  in-universe) than the Imperial-era _Gladiator_. _Acclamator_s apparently all but vanished by _Revenge of the Sith_,  and whatever you think the limitations on Star Wars production capacity  are, the middle of a war is the wrong time to remove a modern major  combatant from service and scrap it to get the materials to build its  replacement.

Then, of course, there's all these ex-CIS ships that  are now in Imperial hands after the Clone Wars, all those major debris  fields full of wrecked ships that apparently just sit there for years or  decades after the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War that probably  ought to be harvested before you scrap perfectly-serviceable ships that  are quite plausibly less than halfway through their useful service lives, a  whole lot of ship classes (and even individual ships) in EU material  with centuries- or even millennia-long careers, et cetera.

Beyond that, if  you want to argue for a resource-constrained setting, there's an  elephant in the room - or rather two of them (or more, if you include EU material), and they're probably  closer in size to blue whales than elephants. Each of the Death Stars  likely consumed the resources required for _hundreds of thousands_  if not _millions_ (or, if some of the larger size estimates for the  second Death Star are accepted instead of the relatively small  160-kilometer official diameter, _billions_) of Imperial Star  Destroyers (the volume of an Imperial Star Destroyer is approximately 53  million cubic meters; the first Death Star is canonically 120  kilometers in diameter, so even if the first Death Star is best modeled  as a shell whose thickness is ~0.25% of its diameter - roughly 300  meters - you're still looking at a volume of material equivalent to  around a quarter million Imperial Star Destroyers even assuming that the  average density of the Death Star's structure is only about the same as that of an  Imperial Star Destroyer despite the enormous difference in scale... and  then there's the second Death Star, which is canonically significantly larger than the first and very clearly isn't best  modeled as a very thin shell around a lot of empty space), and yet  these are secret construction projects in a setting that you say is so  resource-constrained that it has to scrap perfectly-serviceable ships  that are basically brand-new by warship standards to build twenty-five  thousand Imperial Star Destroyers in twenty years? You could maybe argue  that the setting's resource-constrained _because of_ the Death  Stars, but given the secrecy that's supposed to surround their  construction and the sheer scale of the Death Stars a galaxy-wide  shortage of shipbuilding materials caused by the Empire buying up enough  of it to construct a fleet an order of magnitude or more larger than  the one that it can actually be seen to be building is more than a  little problematic, especially since post-Clone Wars reconstruction  efforts probably aren't rebuilding damaged or destroyed skyscrapers on  Coruscant, Mygeeto, Cristophsis, and everywhere else with  battleship-grade armor plate.

----------


## hamishspence

The Disneyverse bumped up the sizes of both Death Stars compared to the Legendsverse.

DS1- 160 km (this figure was used for a while in Legends, before being retconned back to 120km in one of the last Legends books)

DS2- 200 km (this figure is new - probably extrapolated from an old "DS2 is almost twice the size of DS1" statement in Legends - with a "This refers to volume" conclusion added.)

----------


## Peelee

> There are supposed to be over a thousand _Venator_s at the Battle  of Coruscant alone. If you accept that various designs from the EU  exist and are in service in nontrivial numbers during the Clone Wars


Is there any reason I should accept this? Again, Stat Wars is notoriously bad at providing scale. I don't see much reason to assume that primary sources are wrong and assume more reasonable numbers when source material itself doesn't bother to do so. 



> The big problem with this argument is that you then have to answer the  question of why so many other designs apparently survive so long in  significant numbers


Not really. As you point out, there are older designs still in service, so it's not unreasonable to assume that the hulks being disassembled and recycled were kills and were not able to be reused. Bam, solves all issues of some things beig scrapped and some things not, despite incosistencies in age and reuse throughout all sources. Easy peasy.

----------


## Aeson

> The Disneyverse bumped up the sizes of both Death Stars compared to the Legendsverse.
> 
> DS1- 160 km (this figure was used for a while in Legends, before being retconned back to 120km in one of the last Legends books)


Then modeling it as a spherical shell whose thickness is 0.25% of the diameter puts it at the equivalent of over six hundred thousand Imperial Star Destroyers rather than a mere quarter million.




> Is there any reason I should accept this? Again,   Stat Wars is notoriously bad at providing scale. I don't see much  reason  to assume that primary sources are wrong and assume more  reasonable  numbers when source material itself doesn't bother to do so.


For starters, the EU material that claims the existence of these other  ship types suggests that there's at least hundreds of them, and if  there's only a few thousand _Venator_s then "hundreds"is a nontrivial number of ships.




> Not really. As you point out, there are older designs still in  service,  so it's not unreasonable to assume that the hulks being  disassembled and  recycled were kills and were not able to be reused.  Bam, solves all  issues of some things beig scrapped and some things  not, despite  incosistencies in age and reuse throughout all sources.  Easy  peasy.


If you have to scrap the _Venator_s to find enough material to build the ISDs, where did you get the material to build the _Venator_s? How about the material for those _Acclamator_s  that were apparently secretly constructed in large numbers in the  decade or so prior to the start of the Clone Wars? Where are the  hundreds or thousands of _Dreadnought_s that EU material suggests  should exist during the Clone Wars, and why are they retained when  newer (especially by the old EU's timeline, which had the _Dreadnought_  class pushing a century in service and generally accepted as  obsolescent by the outbreak of the Clone Wars) more capable designs are  already being put on the scrapheap and modern equivalents are available  to be produced in your resource- but not labor- or  industry-base-constrained universe? Surely if you're recycling the _Acclamator_s into the _Venator_s and the _Venator_s  into the ISDs then those older EU designs that supposedly exist in at  least the hundreds if not thousands were being recycled to produce the _Acclamator_s, despite the _Acclamator_s being essentially a secret construction project in the decade prior to the outbreak of the Clone Wars. Where is the material for  constructing the Death Stars - which by virtue of their size represent a  commitment of resources equivalent to at the barest minimum hundreds of  thousands of Imperial Star Destroyers - coming from in this resource-poor universe?

The idea that the Star Wars universe is strongly resource-limited is  hugely problematic given what we see in the movies, especially for all  those EU designs that supposedly exist in nontrivial numbers and  probably ought to show up to things like the Battle of Coruscant, where  you'd expect that the defending Republic fleet is comprised of every  ship that the Republic Navy could spare for the engagement and recall in time to show up. A society  that can respond to a surprise attack on its capital with a fleet apparently  comprised of nothing but capital ships under three years old despite  supposedly having perhaps only a few thousand of these shiny new  battleships and simultaneously having hundreds or thousands of older  ships in service is not a society that's having problems finding the  materials to build new ships, especially when these other ship types  that are supposed to exist never seem to show up even in places where  you might expect to see them, and neither is a society that can somehow  scrounge up the resources to build its publicly-acknowledged fleet at  least twenty times over _and conceal the fact that it's doing it with a reasonable degree of success_.

----------


## Mechalich

> If you have to scrap the _Venator_s to find enough material to build the ISDs, where did you get the material to build the _Venator_s? How about the material for those _Acclamator_s  that were apparently secretly constructed in large numbers in the  decade or so prior to the start of the Clone Wars? Where are the  hundreds or thousands of _Dreadnought_s that EU material suggests  should exist during the Clone Wars, and why are they retained when  newer (especially by the old EU's timeline, which had the _Dreadnought_  class pushing a century in service and generally accepted as  obsolescent by the outbreak of the Clone Wars) more capable designs are  already being put on the scrapheap and modern equivalents are available  to be produced in your resource- but not labor- or  industry-base-constrained universe? Surely if you're recycling the _Acclamator_s into the _Venator_s and the _Venator_s  into the ISDs then those older EU designs that supposedly exist in at  least the hundreds if not thousands were being recycled to produce the _Acclamator_s, despite the _Acclamator_s being essentially a secret construction project in the decade prior to the outbreak of the Clone Wars. Where is the material for  constructing the Death Stars - which by virtue of their size represent a  commitment of resources equivalent to at the barest minimum hundreds of  thousands of Imperial Star Destroyers - coming from in this resource-poor universe?
> 
> The idea that the Star Wars universe is strongly resource-limited is  hugely problematic given what we see in the movies, especially for all  those EU designs that supposedly exist in nontrivial numbers and  probably ought to show up to things like the Battle of Coruscant, where  you'd expect that the defending Republic fleet is comprised of every  ship that the Republic Navy could spare for the engagement and recall in time to show up. A society  that can respond to a surprise attack on its capital with a fleet apparently  comprised of nothing but capital ships under three years old despite  supposedly having perhaps only a few thousand of these shiny new  battleships and simultaneously having hundreds or thousands of older  ships in service is not a society that's having problems finding the  materials to build new ships, especially when these other ship types  that are supposed to exist never seem to show up even in places where  you might expect to see them, and neither is a society that can somehow  scrounge up the resources to build its publicly-acknowledged fleet at  least twenty times over _and conceal the fact that it's doing it with a reasonable degree of success_.


That Star Wars is resource limited doesn't mean those limits are especially tight, simply that the operational principles are different compared to the late 20th and early 21st century economies, which are broadly energy limited. Star Wars represents a callback to earlier societies where durable goods were not abundant in the way they are presently, _especially_ outside of the galaxy's small number of hyper-industrialized factory worlds. In general, this matches the overall late-19th/early-20th century feel of Star Wars from a social perspective - the equivalent of the industrial revolution has occurred, but only certain areas, mostly the Core Worlds, have reaped the benefits. This is a major component of the 'used universe' feel that is exceedingly important to the overall presentation of the galaxy.

There is considerable extraction of resources constantly going on. In fact, the Empire massively increased extractive enterprises by numerous means including but not limited to: opening up huge amounts of new territory to business, massively increasing taxes, mining the Deep Core, and flat out stealing resources from various previously independent non-human civilizations. Recycling is still incredibly important for all that, which is why there are whole industries built around salvage. Many _Acclamator_-class ships were modified and repurposed as military cargo carriers. Venators, specifically, were recycled because their fighter-carrier design clashed with Imperial fleet doctrine and the Empire made getting rid of them a priority.

As to the Battle of Coruscant, the fleet deployed there is a small fraction of the Republic's overall forces - Grievous specifically launched a surprise attack to prevent force concentration against him - but because it is deployed for defense of the most critically important worlds in the Core includes a disproportionately large amount of new and advanced ships. In any case, societies who place their economies on a war footing can produce massive amounts of hardware in a short period of time. The Republic is huge, and by cannibalizing essentially all non-military output it could easily spew out thousands of new capital ships. 

Yes, there is a problem with the buildup of the Clone Army prior to the outbreak of the Clone Wars, though this happens regardless of the primary limit on the economy. The ability of Palpatine to assemble such a massive force, and to pay for it, without being detected by anyone has never been well-justified. The _Darth Plagueis_ novel has some references to vast amounts of hidden Sith wealth accumulated over centuries to pay for some of it and also that Plagueis had funneled huge amounts of money out of the banking system which Palpatine was later able to access, but it is decidedly not enough. The genesis of the Clone Wars has a massive accounting problem no matter which way you slice it.

----------


## Peelee

> For starters, the EU material that claims


Canon or Legends?

Also, if the claim is that there are hundreds, and your claim is that there are "thousands at the Battle of Coruscant alone", it really sounds like you're making the case for several thousands more and not hundreds, which does seem trivial comparatively. Assuming that claim is even canon to start with, of course.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Palpatine is also the guy who somehow assembled a massive fleet of doom ships on a planet nobody could get to, all while he's supposed to be dead, and nobody in the galaxy noticed it. Somebody even designed and made new uniforms for the officers of these ships (with the fancy red highlights).

----------


## Peelee

> Palpatine is also the guy who somehow assembled a massive fleet of doom ships on a planet nobody could get to, all while he's supposed to be dead, and nobody in the galaxy noticed it. Somebody even designed and made new uniforms for the officers of these ships (with the fancy red highlights).


..........

God I hate Abrams.

----------


## Mechalich

> Canon or Legends?
> 
> Also, if the claim is that there are hundreds, and your claim is that there are "thousands at the Battle of Coruscant alone", it really sounds like you're making the case for several thousands more and not hundreds, which does seem trivial comparatively. Assuming that claim is even canon to start with, of course.


The 1,000+ Venators at the Battle of Coruscant statistic is actually found in both Disney and Legends canon, because as usual the relevant Disney-era sourcebook - the Star Wars Encyclopedia of Starfighters and Other Vehicles - is full of copy pasta of the relevant Legends-era sourcebook - the Official Starships and Vehicles Collection 32. This is how things usually go, the foggy window of Star Wars canon has or ultimately will preserve almost everything from Legends that Disney material does not specifically contradict.

How many Venators the GAR actually had is unknown. They were presumably common early in the years of the Empire, but phasing out could happen very rapidly. Both Disney and Legends sources support at least a small number of Venators remaining in Imperial service through the Battle of Yavin, but they were clearly quite rare by that time. 




> Palpatine is also the guy who somehow assembled a massive fleet of doom ships on a planet nobody could get to, all while he's supposed to be dead, and nobody in the galaxy noticed it. Somebody even designed and made new uniforms for the officers of these ships (with the fancy red highlights).


Disney EU material has now stated that Palpatine was doing all of that while he was still alive and the Empire was in power and that the Exogol shipyards were almost entirely automated, and the Palpatine diverted huge amounts of material to supply them. Weak sauce, but I give Greg Pak credit for trying. 

Warships constructed by automated secretly supplied shipyards is actually the easy part. Each of those Xyston-class Star Destroyers requires 29,585 crew, which means the entire fleet of 1080 requires ~32,000,000 people to run it. I guess Exogol had an awesome cloning facility too.

----------


## Peelee

> The 1,000+ Venators at the Battle of Coruscant


I wasn't questioning that, I was questioning the unsiurced every-pther-claim-about-Venators. 



> Disney EU material has now stated that Palpatine was doing all of that while he was still alive and the Empire was in power and that the Exogol shipyards were almost entirely automated, and the Palpatine diverted huge amounts of material to supply them. Weak sauce, but I give Greg Pak credit for trying. 
> 
> Warships constructed by automated secretly supplied shipyards is actually the easy part. Each of those Xyston-class Star Destroyers requires 29,585 crew, which means the entire fleet of 1080 requires ~32,000,000 people to run it. I guess Exogol had an awesome cloning facility too.


Crewing is also the easy part. Each of those destroyers had a Death Star-esque planet destroying superlaser. Which means that if they were built while the Emperor was alive, then he really didn't need the second Death Star. 

Which takes me back to hating Abrams.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Mechalich*
> _I guess Exogol had an awesome cloning facility too._


Well, we saw the process for creating Snoke clones right up front.  Not hard to imagine there are cloning facilities on the same scale as the shipyards.

But also not hard to imagine an entire generation of Imperials who were indoctrinated as children at the start of the Empire, and who grew to adulthood just before Endor, and who devoted the rest of their lives towards the day when the Emperor would return.  Given the scale of galactic population, thirty-odd million doesnt sound that difficult.

What I wonder about is how theyre feeding all of them on a planet no one can get to, with no apparent surface life.  Maybe they clone the chickens too, which raises the question of whether everything on those new destroyers tastes like chicken.

----------


## Peelee

> What I wonder about is how theyre feeding all of them on a planet no one can get to, with no apparent surface life.  Maybe they clone the chickens too


Phase 39: Robot chickens.

Bonus points to whoever gets that reference without Google.

----------


## Aeson

> your claim is that there are "thousands at the Battle of Coruscant alone"





> There are supposed to be over a thousand _Venator_s  at the Battle  of Coruscant alone. If you accept that various designs  from the EU  exist and are in service in nontrivial numbers during the  Clone Wars,  then their apparent absence suggests that the fleet over  Coruscant does  not represent a significant part of the Republic Navy's  active strength  or, in turn, of the total number of _Venator_s  in service since  it's pretty unlikely that they'd be heavily  concentrated into only a  couple formations where they entirely displace  other ship types or that  of all the ships in all the formations able  to respond to the attack on  Coruscant only the _Venator_s were  actually recalled or arrived  in time to participate in the engagement.  It might not be an entirely  reasonable scale for a galactic conflict,  but it's a reasonable bet that  there's at least many thousand _Venator_s in active service at that point in the Clone Wars.


My position is not that there are "thousands of _Venator_s at the Battle of Coruscant alone," my position is that the canonical presence of "over a thousand" _Venator_s  at the Battle of Coruscant combined with the Republic Navy's known  other commitments throughout the galaxy and the complete absence of any  other Republic-affiliated space combatant larger than an ARC-170 in _Revenge of the Sith_ strongly suggests a minimum of many thousands of _Venator_s *in service** at that point in time*.

Basically, if we limit this to things that are incontrovertably canonical:
1. We know that there are a large number of _Acclamator_-class Assault Ships in Republic naval service in the early part of the Clone Wars, and that at that time the _Acclamator_ is a modern and reasonably capable combatant, even if it is perhaps not optimized for a ship-to-ship role.
2.  Unless loss rates have been absolutely devastating, a nontrivial  fraction of these ships should still be in service by the Battle of  Coruscant three years after the war began.
3. The Battle of Coruscant  began as a Separatist surprise attack on the capital of the Republic  which takes place while large Republic forces are tied up in "the Outer  Rim sieges."
4. There are probably a hundred or more _Venator_s which can be seen in the opening scene of _Revenge of the Sith_;  there are no other Republic space combatant types larger than the  ARC-170 visible anywhere in the movie insofar as I can recall.

If the thousand-odd _Venator_s  canonically involved at the Battle of Coruscant represent a significant  fraction of the number then in service - say, half to a third - then  (1) and (2) suggest that the number of _Acclamator_s in Republic naval service should be nontrivial by comparison to the number of Venators - even if there's only a hundred _Acclamator_s left at this stage of the war, two or three thousand _Venator_s and a hundred _Acclamator_s is still an _Acclamator_ for every twenty or thirty _Venator_s  - and (3) suggests that the Battle of Coruscant is exactly the sort of  situation where any available forces should be responding. Why, then, is  (4) the observed reality in _Revenge of the Sith_? If anything,  with the Republic forces committed to the Outer Rim sieges presumably  tying up a significant portion of the Republic's front-line units, you'd  expect a disproportionately high number of the Republic's second-line units to be  engaged at the Battle of Coruscant, and yet insofar as we can tell from  the opening scene of _Revenge of the Sith_ every Republic warship that responded to the attack is a _Venator_  - the largest, most modern, and presumably most powerful warship in the  Republic Navy whose existence can be confirmed from the movies.

There should logically be a lot of _Acclamator_s still in service as of the Battle of Coruscant; the EU claims that there's lots of _Dreadnought_-class heavy cruisers and _Carrack_-class light cruisers and probably some _Victory_- and _Imperial_-/_Imperator-_class Star Destroyers and _Praetor_-class Battlecruisers and _Mandator_- and _Invincible_-class  Dreadnoughts and other things besides in Republic naval service at this  time, probably mostly filling secondary roles because every front-line  unit we see seems to have nothing but _Venator_-class Star  Destroyers. Why, then, is the Republic fleet at the Battle of Coruscant -  which ought to be a more or less scratch force comprised of just about  anything that could be recalled on short notice to respond to the  Separatist assault and so should likely have a relatively high  proportion of second-line units in it (certainly something like a _Dreadnought_ or a _Carrack_ patrolling Core trade lanes or an _Acclamator_  on flag-waving duty reassuring the populace of a Core World that Uncle  Palpatine is looking out for them should be more available to respond on short  notice to a surprise attack in the Core than a _Venator_ assigned  to a front-line unit that's already committed to operations in the Rim  would be) - apparently so overwhelmingly composed of _Venator_-class Star Destroyers that there isn't a single identifiable Republic warship larger than an ARC-170 which isn't a _Venator_? The implication is that the Republic Navy simply has so many _Venator_-class  Star Destroyers that the other ship types that the Republic has in  service are numerically insignificant even in a force assembled on short  notice to respond to an ongoing hit-and-run-style surprise attack, and  for that you either need many thousands of _Venator_s or laughably-insignificant numbers of ships of other types - especially since you'd expect that if the number of _Venator_s  in service doesn't completely dwarf the number of ships of other types  in service then a Republic that does apparently actually have over a  thousand _Venator_s available to respond on short notice to an  attack on the capital would also be able to scrounge up at least, I  don't know, a couple hundred ships across all the other types in service  at similar notice for the same purpose, and in a fleet of a thousand _Venator_s and a couple hundred other ships you'd think at least _one_ of those other ships would be visible somewhere in the opening scene of _Revenge of the Sith_.

----------


## Peelee

That was a very lengthy way to say "no canon source and only speculation".

----------


## ecarden

As an aside, I'd say that Star Wars numbers basically never make any sense, often due to technical limitations, often due to other problems. The clone wars makes it clear that most Jedi command three Venators at a time and a single legion of indeterminate size. This was considered sufficient for most operations, though such units would often operate in tandem.

On the money laundering question, it may help if you define your terms. Returning to Andor, it's absolutely clear, to me, that Mon Mothma is engaged in money laundering, both initially, not terribly well through her charity and now through her new banker. 

Meanwhile, I'd be pretty shocked if Saw Guerrera was doing any money laundering at all. He's much more snatch and grab and maybe trade later. Similarly, I don't think the Ghost crew ever did any money laundering? They did some trade as cover, but that's a different thing.

Luthen on the other hand...it's ambiguous what he's doing with the money stolen, but given that his entire operation is arguably set up for money laundering purchase of antiquities (given often uncertain/unprovable provenance and widely varying value estimates are a classical way of fictional money laundering) and his general tactics, seems likely to be heavily involved in any such action. 

I think the answer, like most stuff ought to be in a galactic scale struggle is, it depends on location?

I do think the statement about the rebellion being funded by senators radically overstates things. Especially when we only get 2 sets of numbers (at least here). I want to say that Mon Mothma needs to cover up 600,000 in donations, while Luthen's raid steals 80,000,000? Now, Mon Mothma is presumably not his only source of funds and maybe that was just the last round of donations, but we just don't have a good feel for Star Wars's economy to know how much money that actually is, though 80 million is the quarterly  payroll for imperial troops in an entire sector of space...

----------


## Peelee

> As an aside, I'd say that Star Wars numbers basically never make any sense, often due to technical limitations, often due to other problems. The clone wars makes it clear that most Jedi command three Venators at a time and a single legion of indeterminate size. This was considered sufficient for most operations, though such units would often operate in tandem.


Humans in general are very bad at understanding large numbers, and "large numbers" can be shockingly low. Star Wars numbers are best when left nebulous. The Emperor has two legions at Endor. Great! There's no actual number for "legion", that is not problematic! "There are a lot of command ships." No hard numbers, just a vague amount. Can't complain, a lot could be a dozen or a hundred. 

The actual numbers never really matter. What's not relevant is the exact number of Star Destroyers, what is relevant is that they are a constant threat. Bad writers don't understand this. 



> On the money laundering question, it may help if you define your terms. Returning to Andor, it's absolutely clear, to me, that Mon Mothma is engaged in money laundering, both initially, not terribly well through her charity and now through her new banker. 
> 
> Meanwhile, I'd be pretty shocked if Saw Guerrera was doing any money laundering at all. He's much more snatch and grab and maybe trade later. Similarly, I don't think the Ghost crew ever did any money laundering? They did some trade as cover, but that's a different thing.
> 
> Luthen on the other hand...it's ambiguous what he's doing with the money stolen, but given that his entire operation is arguably set up for money laundering purchase of antiquities (given often uncertain/unprovable provenance and widely varying value estimates are a classical way of fictional money laundering) and his general tactics, seems likely to be heavily involved in any such action.


Exactly! Mom Mothma wants to appear as a public figure, she needs to launder money if she's getting or spending it with rebelling. Luthen wants to appear as legitimate, he needs to launder money. Saw does not want to appear as a fine upstanding citizen, he doesn't give a damn about laundering because he doesn't need to. The rebels out there buying munitions to ocmmut insurrection against the government aren't putting it on their credit cards for miles and then need to explain the paper trail. They're getting cash and using cash because they're criminals and cash is notoriously excellent for criminal transactions because it's untraceable. There doesn't _need_ to be laundering for the rebels buying X-Wings. They're not planning on being audited by the Empire, which is the only reason laundering needs to exist at all. Anto Kreegyr isn't giving the Empire his financial records, because he's a terrorist. That's now how being a terrorist works. The rebels are terrorists. Insurrectionists. Guerrillas. Freedom fighters. Not good little taxpayers who want to make sure their space-1040s are clean. Sure, some public fronters will do that, like Mon Mothma or Luthen. But the actual rebelling groups? They're not incorporated with website listing their board of directors here. They don't need to launder.

----------


## pendell

> Meanwhile, I'd be pretty shocked if Saw Guerrera was doing any money laundering at all. He's much more snatch and grab and maybe trade later. Similarly, I don't think the Ghost crew ever did any money laundering? They did some trade as cover, but that's a different thing.


What does he do when he needs to feed his band? Smash and grab the supermarket?  

Maintaining a guerrilla force is a lot more involved than hiding out and shooting at people.   I forget how large his organization is -- dozens of people at least, I think -- 

Just a quick look at  logistics  shows us 




> Class I  Rations  Subsistence (food and drinking water), gratuitous (free) health and comfort items.
> Class II  Clothing And Equipment  individual equipment, tentage, some aerial delivery equipment, organizational tool sets and kits, hand tools, unclassified maps, administrative and housekeeping supplies and equipment.
> Class III  POL  Petroleum, Oil and Lubricants (POL) (package and bulk): Petroleum, fuels, lubricants, hydraulic and insulating oils, preservatives, liquids and gases, bulk chemical products, coolants, deicer and antifreeze compounds, components, and additives of petroleum and chemical products, and coal.
> Class IV  Construction materials, including installed equipment and all fortification and barrier materials.
> Class V  Ammunition of all types, bombs, explosives, mines, fuses, detonators, pyrotechnics, missiles, rockets, propellants, and associated items.
> Class VI  Personal demand items (such as health and hygiene products, soaps and toothpaste, writing material, snack food, beverages, cigarettes, batteries, alcohol, and camerasnonmilitary sales items).
> Class VII  Major end items such as launchers, tanks, mobile machine shops, some parachute systems and vehicles.
> Class VIII  Medical material (equipment and consumables) including repair parts particular to medical equipment. (Class VIIIa  Medical consumable supplies not including blood & blood products; Class VIIIb  Blood & blood components (whole blood, platelets, plasma, packed red cells, etc.).
> Class IX  Repair parts and components to include kits, assemblies, and subassemblies (repairable or non-repairable) required for maintenance support of all equipment.
> ...


Almost all of this has to be paid for. Gonna smash-and-grab the local blood bank ? What about a clothing store? A hardware store for tools and spare parts? On and on and on.  

Russian proverb:  "Money is the artery of war". It's _expensive_ to support even a small-scale guerrilla or terrorist force. Even if we assume that all Saw's guerrillas have regular full time jobs and moonlight as guerrillas, which are a "hobby" in the sense they aren't paid for their work, there's still a lot of stuff that the organization needs and its impractical to rob all of it.  Every robbery or terrorist incident is another datum point in someone's database of crimes, making it more and more likely you'll be caught and traced.  

Which means Saw needs money, and a lot of it.   Some of it gained legally, through work. Others gained illegally through crimes and scams, but all of it has to be washed before it can be used. Jedha may be the back end of the Outer Rim, but it is under heavy military occupation and the Imperials are watching for any indications of guerrilla activity. Large purchases of supplies which can't be traced back to a legitimate purchaser are a major red flag.  

There's a certain irony to this; being a major criminal or revolutionary means playing by the legal rules aside from those you must break for your major illegal enterprise.  A really high-level operative always drives the legal limit and has their car fully repaired -- the last thing they need is to be pulled over by the local constabulary for a broken taillight, have them spot something in the trunk, and then the entire organization comes apart under investigation.  It's happened before . 

They may not bother to show it in the few hours they have on film but there has to be a lot more to Saw's underground than we see in TV and in movie.  So , yes.  I am absolutely convinced they participate in money laundering, because both crime and revolution are expensive businesses. And like any business making payroll is a chore that requires a lot of money, every day.  

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## ecarden

> Exactly! Mom Mothma wants to appear as a public figure, she needs to launder money if she's getting or spending it with rebelling. Luthen wants to appear as legitimate, he needs to launder money. Saw does not want to appear as a fine upstanding citizen, he doesn't give a damn about laundering because he doesn't need to. The rebels out there buying munitions to ocmmut insurrection against the government aren't putting it on their credit cards for miles and then need to explain the paper trail. They're getting cash and using cash because they're criminals and cash is notoriously excellent for criminal transactions because it's untraceable. There doesn't _need_ to be laundering for the rebels buying X-Wings. They're not planning on being audited by the Empire, which is the only reason laundering needs to exist at all. Anto Kreegyr isn't giving the Empire his financial records, because he's a terrorist. That's now how being a terrorist works. The rebels are terrorists. Insurrectionists. Guerrillas. Freedom fighters. Not good little taxpayers who want to make sure their space-1040s are clean. Sure, some public fronters will do that, like Mon Mothma or Luthen. But the actual rebelling groups? They're not incorporated with website listing their board of directors here. They don't need to launder.


So I think this gets at the root of the disagreement you guys are having, though I may be wrong. I believe the other position is that it still requires money laundering, just not by the rebels. The company making the fighters will need to justify its income. There's a real question who would be responsible for that. A traditional way, as noted, is to coopt someone with authority to purchase and then have them 'stolen' or 'lost' but whether the company has the straw purchasers or the buyer does will probably vary pretty significantly by location. 

But alternatively (and as said, I think Saw especially most likely operates like this), you can also just literally steal them. Now, this would usually end up with Rebels operating with stolen Imperial gear, which we don't see in most media because it would be visually confusing. 

Alternatively, alternatively, there's clearly a lot of Clone Wars era salvage out there, literally just collecting it would probably allow construction of a reasonably sized force.

ETA: Pendell, crossed streams there.

I don't think so? They seem to operate either parasitically (as do many such groups) by taking over a small region and presumably gaining needed supplies from local supporters or simply through protection rackets (I believe this is how they're operating by Rogue One) or by being so small that yes, they can simply steal the supplies they need. Remember Anto Kreeger and his band that we're so concerned about in Andor? It's literally a dozen men (unless I'm misremembering). These are not groups sized the way insurgencies usually are when that's a concern.

----------


## Peelee

> So I think this gets at the root of the disagreement you guys are having, though I may be wrong. I believe the other position is that it still requires money laundering, just not by the rebels. The company making the fighters will need to justify its income. There's a real question who would be responsible for that.


Sure. But that company is not the rebels.

----------


## ecarden

> Sure. But that company is not the rebels.


True, and of course, the other thing I forgot to mention is that there's almost always (and we 100% see it in Star Wars) a black market structure which doesn't care about legitimacy, only cash. How do the rebels feed themselves? The same way bandits/pirates do, which might involve money laundering, or protection rackets, or theft, or straight up taking over a small region.

----------


## Peelee

> True, and of course, the other thing I forgot to mention is that there's almost always (and we 100% see it in Star Wars) a black market structure which doesn't care about legitimacy, only cash. How do the rebels feed themselves? The same way bandits/pirates do, which might involve money laundering, or protection rackets, or theft, or straight up taking over a small region.


Aye. And also the Star Wars universe has ma inordinate emphasis on the presence of smugglers in the galaxy to boot.

----------


## Aeson

> That was a very lengthy way to say "no canon source and only speculation".


It's Occam's Razor. No Republic-aligned major warships of types other than the _Venator_ are visible in _Revenge of the Sith_  even in situations where you would expect to see warships that aren't  front-line units, therefore either no other Republic-aligned major  warships of types other than the _Venator_ are in service at this time (which is highly  questionable seeing as _Attack of the Clones_ gives grounds to believe that large numbers of _Acclamator_s  entered Republic naval service just three years prior, and outright  wrong according to both old- and Disney-EU sources) or the number of _Venator_s  in service so completely dwarfs everything else in Republic naval  service that even the fleet that should've been composed of everyone who  came running when the capital screamed bloody murder is to appearances  entirely comprised of _Venator_s.

If you have two or three thousand _Venator_s and a thousand combatants across all other types, ships that aren't _Venator_s still make up a quarter to a third of your total number of ships, and at that high a proportion of not-_Venator_s in the navy it becomes very difficult to explain why there aren't _any_ not-_Venator_s anywhere to be seen in Republic naval forces in _Revenge of the Sith_  - not at the Battle of Coruscant, where you'd expect any warship that  could respond to have come running; nor in the fleet that Obi-Wan takes  to Utapau, which is at least probably a prepared front-line unit and so  could be presumed to have a high proportion of the most modern and  capable units; nor in the force that Yoda takes to Kashyyyk, which is  probably a "whatever we have to hand is what's going to go" kind of  situation because they're responding on short notice after having just  committed a significant available force to Utapau. If you want hard  numbers, then by the old EU we have at least "dozens" of _Acclamator_s in service at the outbreak of the war (a minimum of twenty, and probably more, can be seen in the military review at the end of _Attack of the Clones_) and another thousand on order soon after the Battle of Geonosis, we have the _Dreadnought_-class heavy cruiser that was common enough that six of them could be thrown away on _Outbound Flight_ and another two hundred of them could be lost with the _Katana_ Fleet and still leave it "a common sight," we have the _Victory_-class  Star Destroyer which despite being rushed into service is still present  in enough numbers to constitute a fleet capable of countering a fleet  of CIS/Techno Union _Bulwark_s striking into the Core, we have "some" _Mandator_- and _Invincible_-class Dreadnoughts and _Maelstrom_- and _Praetor_-class Battlecruisers, we have _Carrack_-class  light cruisers that are numerous enough at the end of the war to  constitute "an important addition" to the Imperial Navy and are supposed  to have been involved in the destruction of the _Invisible__ Hand_ at the Battle of Coruscant (which should probably have placed some where we could see them in _Revenge of the Sith_  since that's an event that's depicted in the film), et cetera, so only a  thousand ships across all other types in Republic naval service seems  pretty likely to be a low estimate by the old EU's numbers. Disney-EU,  as far as I am aware, hasn't been so keen to throw around hard numbers  as the old EU was, but there's still a lot of _Acclamator_s,_ Dreadnought_s are apparently still "common," _Carrack_s are still numerous enough to be "an important workhorse," _Victory_  Star Destroyers still make up the core of a fleet that was rushed into  the line to counter a Separatist fleet striking into the Core and are  retained in service into the Imperial era despite a number of design  issues that gave it maintenance troubles and a bad reputation and despite all  those similarly-large and -capable _Venator_s that seem to be getting taken  out of service almost as soon as the war ends, there's still a wide  array of other "little" ships that are supposed to be in active Republic  naval service at this time.

----------


## Mechalich

> But alternatively (and as said, I think Saw especially most likely operates like this), you can also just literally steal them. Now, this would usually end up with Rebels operating with stolen Imperial gear, which we don't see in most media because it would be visually confusing.


The crew of the Ghost did steal a TIE fighter in Rebels and then subsequently use it in their own operations, but only after painting it with a garish color scheme. There should probably be many similar cases, with Rebels using Imperial gear and just painting it all red or something. Unfortunately all the ships in the OT are a pale gray - probably for lighting reasons on the models - so the franchise has long been resistant to this.




> I don't think so? They seem to operate either parasitically (as do many such groups) by taking over a small region and presumably gaining needed supplies from local supporters or simply through protection rackets (I believe this is how they're operating by Rogue One) or by being so small that yes, they can simply steal the supplies they need. Remember Anto Kreeger and his band that we're so concerned about in Andor? It's literally a dozen men (unless I'm misremembering). These are not groups sized the way insurgencies usually are when that's a concern.


Saw tells Luthen that Kreeger has 50 men, but yes, the actual force involved is quite tiny. 

One of the tricks about Star Wars is the while dedicated military gear is expensive, as are any and all spacecraft, the various logistical supplies that can be sourced using civilian products are comparatively cheap. This makes it easier for the Rebels to operate, so long as they can successfully fence gear they steal from the Empire. This would be, going back to the original prompt, another reason to involve Jabba or other Hutts. They'll be only to happy to buy stolen Imperial military hardware at a steep discount. 




> No Republic-aligned major warships of types other than the Venator are visible in Revenge of the Sith


We don't see the whole battle though, or even most of it. The total engagement zone in RotS occupies maybe 1/10th of the total combat space from a very generous perspective, mostly centered around the Separatist's command units. It is entirely possible that the overall commander on the Republic side (it's not entirely clear who this was, it's ostensibly Yoda, but it's unlikely he led the space battle, possibly Plo Koon was in command) ordered a force comprised entirely of Venators to that zone. Non-Venator forces including Carracks and at least one Dreadnaught are documented in both versions of canon (the same exact ships doing the same thing actually, copy pasta strikes again!), so non-Venator ships were present, just offscreen. 

The visual media always simplify, because they have to.

----------


## Aeson

> We don't see the whole battle though, or even  most of it. The total engagement zone in RotS occupies maybe 1/10th of  the total combat space from a very generous perspective, mostly centered  around the Separatist's command units. It is entirely possible that the  overall commander on the Republic side (it's not entirely clear who  this was, it's ostensibly Yoda, but it's unlikely he led the space  battle, possibly Plo Koon was in command) ordered a force comprised  entirely of Venators to that zone. Non-Venator forces including Carracks  and at least one Dreadnaught are documented in both versions of canon  (the same exact ships doing the same thing actually, copy pasta strikes  again!), so non-Venator ships were present, just offscreen.


The EU material that says that at least a few _Carrack_s and a _Dreadnought_ were present also says that these ships were part of the force that surrounded the _Invisible Hand_  to hold it in place until the Chancellor could be rescued; strangely  enough, this places them in exactly the part of the engagement which _Revenge of the Sith_ focuses on. Your justification for their apparent absence, then, appears to be that the EU material that places these ships at the Battle of Coruscant is wrong.

At that point, you may as well just ignore EU material; it'd certainly simplify this discussion since it's really not difficult to explain away the absence of ships that don't exist, and the only remaining issue with the _Venator_-dominated Republic Navy of _Revenge of the Sith_ is the question of, well, what about the _Acclamator_?




> The visual media always simplify, because they have to.


This is about as useful and functional an argument as saying "Expanded Universe material is always full of crap, because it is."

What Lucasfilm chose to show in the movies says something about what their vision of the setting was, and the fact that the _Venator_ is not only a new warship model but also the Republic's _only_ warship model in _Revenge of the Sith_ despite the probability that Lucasfilm still had an _Acclamator_ model from _Attack of the Clones_  and despite the fact that the CIS not only got one returning warship  model but also received three new ones is saying, very loudly, that the  Republic has _a lot_ of _Venator_s and a very uniform fleet. They're saying that the _Venator_ has either been produced in such numbers as to render the _Acclamator_  (and other types that EU material claims to exist) numerically  insignificant by comparison or that it's been produced in such numbers  as to completely displace the _Acclamator_  (and other types that EU material claims to exist), inside of three years during a major conflict for which the Republic was notionally unprepared; that the Republic has so many _Venator_s that they can be used for missions which would traditionally go to lighter or older or less capable combatants - the kinds of things that the EU's _Arquiten__s_es and _Carrack_s and _Dreadnought_s are supposed to be. Reusing the _Acclamator_ model from _Attack of the Clones_ would not have been entirely without cost, but if Lucasfilm had _not_ wanted to say these kinds of things about the Republic and the _Venator_ then it's a fairly obvious and relatively inexpensive option for them to have pursued.

----------


## ecarden

> What Lucasfilm chose to show in the movies says something about what their vision of the setting was, and the fact that the _Venator_ is not only a new warship model but also the Republic's _only_ warship model in _Revenge of the Sith_ despite the probability that Lucasfilm still had an _Acclamator_ model from _Attack of the Clones_  and despite the fact that the CIS not only got one returning warship  model but also received three new ones is saying, very loudly, that the  Republic has _a lot_ of _Venator_s and a very uniform fleet. They're saying that the _Venator_ has either been produced in such numbers as to render the _Acclamator_  (and other types that EU material claims to exist) numerically  insignificant by comparison or that it's been produced in such numbers  as to completely displace the _Acclamator_  (and other types that EU material claims to exist), inside of three years during a major conflict for which the Republic was notionally unprepared; that the Republic has so many _Venator_s that they can be used for missions which would traditionally go to lighter or older or less capable combatants - the kinds of things that the EU's _Arquiten__s_es and _Carrack_s and _Dreadnought_s are supposed to be. Reusing the _Acclamator_ model from _Attack of the Clones_ would not have been entirely without cost, but if Lucasfilm had _not_ wanted to say these kinds of things about the Republic and the _Venator_ then it's a fairly obvious and relatively inexpensive option for them to have pursued.


Except, I don't think that's what they intend to say at all. What I think they intend to visually convey there is 'the Republic has almost become the Empire, see all these almost-Star-Destroyers?'

----------


## The Glyphstone

My first guess would just have been they wanted to save money by copy-pasting the same ship model...

----------


## Aeson

> Except, I don't think that's what they intend to say at all. What I think they intend to visually convey there is 'the Republic has almost become the Empire, see all these almost-Star-Destroyers?'





> My first guess would just have been they wanted to save money by copy-pasting the same ship model...


They could've done both of those things re-using the _Acclamator_s from _Attack of the Clones_ - _Venator_s don't really look any more like the Original Trilogy's Star Destroyers than the _Acclamator_s do (I'd say that they look _less_ like the ISDs than the _Acclamator_s do, myself, what with the double tower, the tail fin, and the large cut-outs on the flanks), and using the _Acclamator_ model again would presumably have been cheaper than creating the _Venator_. If it's the name, well... as far as I can recall, _Acclamator_s are only classified as 'assault ships' in supplemental material; I don't think they're ever actually named or classified in the movie. Redesignating them as Star Destroyers for _Revenge of the Sith_ wouldn't exactly be a big problem.

There's also that Lucasfilm _did_ choose to go to the trouble of showing multiple ship types for the CIS. If they had wanted to show that there was a degree of diversity in the Republic fleet, they showed with the CIS that they had the ability to do so, and there's other places where they could've saved money besides using cut-and-paste for background ships if they wanted to do so.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Mechalich*
> _Unfortunately all the ships in the OT are a pale gray - probably for lighting reasons on the models - so the franchise has long been resistant to this._


Less lighting constraints than for the aesthetics of the lived-in universe that Lucas was going for, as well as the very utilitarian aspect of most of the craft we see.

I had the opportunity to take a very detailed look at some of the filming models when they were at the NASM a number of years ago, as part of the Magic & Myth tour.  Theres more color than youd expect on some of them, and the A-Wings in particular had a bold red color scheme.

I do wonder why the choice was made to not include nose art or kill marksprobably to avoid visual clutter and distraction.  And perhaps also to suggest that the Rebels were in a desperate enough struggle that they couldnt afford time or materials to decorate their ships with anything frivolous.

----------


## pendell

> I do wonder why the choice was made to not include nose art or kill marksprobably to avoid visual clutter and distraction.  And perhaps also to suggest that the Rebels were in a desperate enough struggle that they couldnt afford time or materials to decorate their ships with anything frivolous.


As far as the kill marks go, the first battle of the galactic civil war had just been fought, as told in episode 4's opening crawl.  We saw it in Rogue One. Those ships which made a lot of kills were on the surface of Scarif and none of them came back.   

These are new ships and a new war. So no nose art or kill marks yet. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *pendell*
> _Those ships which made a lot of kills were on the surface of Scarif and none of them came back._


We know Red Squadron was fighting in orbit and almost all of them made it back, so it's likely they scored a fair number of kills themselves.  Im also not convinced this was their very first fight, since most of the pilots are clearly experienced in combat.  It may have been the first battle according to military criteria, but almost certainly everyone involved had flown missions before.  

And the ships themselves are already combat-scarred, as a look at the filming models will show you.  Even a flight-on-flight engagement will result in victories, and while they may not have been involved in a large-scale operation before, theyve certainly seen their share of action.

----------


## gbaji

> Warships constructed by automated secretly supplied shipyards is actually the easy part. Each of those Xyston-class Star Destroyers requires 29,585 crew, which means the entire fleet of 1080 requires ~32,000,000 people to run it. I guess Exogol had an awesome cloning facility too.


Yeah. This was the part that boggled my mind as well (among other problems). One would assume that the First Order had what resources it had, which included X number of ships, and X*Y number of people to man them (plus ground troops, admin folks, etc). It's an economic thing (which SW is notoriously bad about anyway). So we're to believe that the First Order had 32M trained naval officers and crew just sitting around doing nothing, for... how long? Remember, they had no clue that this fleet existed until Kylo Ren goes there and discovers Palpatine at the beginning of Ep. 9.

That's just a serious logistics problem.





> Crewing is also the easy part. Each of those destroyers had a Death Star-esque planet destroying superlaser. Which means that if they were built while the Emperor was alive, then he really didn't need the second Death Star. 
> 
> Which takes me back to hating Abrams.


And this is one of the "other problems". Abrams just couldn't stop at "big honking fleet that will turn the tide of the conflict". That should have been enough. If we assume that the First Order is still in the "rebuilding and gaining territory/resources" phase, and is still (mostly) being blocked by various resitance groups, their biggest problem is that they just don't have the ships and men to maintain the level of control over the whole galaxy that they want/need, so more ships could push them over. I always got the sense that there was a sort of tipping point going on here. Not enough and you can't do more than cause problems in some regions of the galaxy (which we see a bit of in Resistance). But "just enough" and you can put sufficient force in any one location to basically cow the entire galaxy (as long as there isn't sufficient organized resistance to you).

Having said that though, a thousand more ships probably wouldn't do it anyway. Again, it's a problem with scale and what "large" is. To a hack director? 1000 ships is "a massive fleet". But realistically? To actually have the amount of control (and the resistance more or less on the run and the remnants of the republic in hiding) by the period of RoS, they should have to have many many times more ships than that. Not as many as the empire at its height, but still.  A lot more ships are needed (and people to crew them). It's presented as though this is the "largest fleet ever built", but we know mathematically that this is simply not true.

Which, of course, is why they had to punt by putting in planet killing weapons on them. So it's not the number, but that they have these weapons. Again though, why on earth didn't they deploy these ships (or just the weapons) before the events in Ep. 6? Two or three of them floating around Endor would have finished off the entire Rebel Fleet that much faster, right? It only makes sense if we assume that Palpatine had some prophesy/vision thing and knew he was going to die. Um... But then why didn't he just not hang out at the DS2 in the first place? Of course, that thought takes us down an entire rabbit hole of storywriting that only a full room of coked out Hollywood types could ever possibly think makes even the remotest bit of sense.

Palpatine's "plan"? That's... just... awful. Seriously. Just try to wrap your head around it. Can't. Be. Done.





> Humans in general are very bad at understanding large numbers, and "large numbers" can be shockingly low. Star Wars numbers are best when left nebulous. The Emperor has two legions at Endor. Great! There's no actual number for "legion", that is not problematic! "There are a lot of command ships." No hard numbers, just a vague amount. Can't complain, a lot could be a dozen or a hundred. 
> 
> The actual numbers never really matter. What's not relevant is the exact number of Star Destroyers, what is relevant is that they are a constant threat. Bad writers don't understand this.


Yeah. The problem is that you have a fandom base that absolutely wants to have solid numbers, and ship types, and stats, in a film/series setting that is demonstrably not remotely about any of the numbers making any sense. SW is not science fiction. It's magic/fantasy in a space setting. I don't care how many ships they have. "Enough" is good enough.

As mentioned above though, I do kinda care when they produce ships that were retroactively declared to have been designed and built 20 years earlier, but instead of using them, left them mothballed "just in case" a frankly absurd set of circumstances just happened to occur exactly as the screenwriters wrote them (just now). I would have been perfectly happy with "it's a really big fleet, that will tip the scale of power to the Order once they get them manned and operating". But of course, then we wouldn't have had the huge dramatic battle, and the threat that if even one ship escaped it would spell doom (no one seems to have considered where the plans for those weapons went though, did they?).

Could have done the exact same thing. Have a big fleet, just enough for the Order to make great use of. But have them set up via slave circuits such that taking control of one could allow them to fly the rest into a star or something (didn't that happen in one of the books?). Solves the problem of crew. Creates a "threat" (but not as immediate). Allows for exciting conflict by the main characters to remove said threat. Doesn't require introducing nonsense into the story (or anything else potentially setting breaking like ship portable planet killers).

And we're still left with the core problem: Ok. Kylo Ren is dead. Some of the Order are dead. Um... But all the ships were "additional ships", right? Doesn't the Order still have the same fleet they had before the start of Ep. 9? Don't they have the same resources and control? Wasn't that already sufficient power to destroy the Senate, and more or less push the resistance back? I mean by Ep. 8, it's basically that the good guys have zero capital ships left to resist them any more, right? Other than the whole "we destroyed the Sith" thing, nothing was actually "won" at the end of the series. Well. Technically, Hux "won". His clear objective was to get rid of the Sith influence in the Order so that (presumably) normal folks, who weren't driven by frankly insane evil force nonsense, could get on with the business of ruling the galaxy. Whomever is next in command now has that. I guess?

Yeah. Had a lot of problems with that film.





> It's Occam's Razor. No Republic-aligned major warships of types other than the _Venator_ are visible in _Revenge of the Sith_  even in situations where you would expect to see warships that aren't  front-line units, therefore either no other Republic-aligned major  warships of types other than the _Venator_ are in service at this time (which is highly  questionable seeing as _Attack of the Clones_ gives grounds to believe that large numbers of _Acclamator_s  entered Republic naval service just three years prior, and outright  wrong according to both old- and Disney-EU sources) or the number of _Venator_s  in service so completely dwarfs everything else in Republic naval  service that even the fleet that should've been composed of everyone who  came running when the capital screamed bloody murder is to appearances  entirely comprised of _Venator_s.


Seriously. I think you are overthinking this. The ships that were there, were whatever ships were there. The ships you saw on the screen? Those were the cool new model that the film makers created for that film, so they showed it prominently. The whole point was to show an evolution of ships gradually changing over time, to show the gradual migration towards the Empire that Palpatine is about to bring about. It's not about logistics, or math, or even logic. It's about art.

It would step all over that art if they showed a small number of the "newer" design, and a massive horde of a mix of older designs. Yes. In a real naval battle, we should expect to see a large variety of different ships of different classes, models, and ages in any battle. But we don't get that because they are making an entertainment film, not a battle documentary.


Psssst. It's also why the ships that Anakin and Kenobi are flying around in gradually shift in appearance to look closer to the TIE design over time too. It's not at all about accurately portraying the ships that should have been available in any given battle. It's 100% about creating a perception in the audience of the steady shift from Republic to Empire.

----------


## pendell

> And this is one of the "other problems". Abrams just couldn't stop at "big honking fleet that will turn the tide of the conflict". That should have been enough. If we assume that the First Order is still in the "rebuilding and gaining territory/resources" phase, and is still (mostly) being blocked by various resitance groups, their biggest problem is that they just don't have the ships and men to maintain the level of control over the whole galaxy that they want/need, so more ships could push them over. I always got the sense that there was a sort of tipping point going on here. Not enough and you can't do more than cause problems in some regions of the galaxy (which we see a bit of in Resistance). But "just enough" and you can put sufficient force in any one location to basically cow the entire galaxy (as long as there isn't sufficient organized resistance to you).
> 
> Having said that though, a thousand more ships probably wouldn't do it anyway. Again, it's a problem with scale and what "large" is. To a hack director? 1000 ships is "a massive fleet". But realistically? To actually have the amount of control (and the resistance more or less on the run and the remnants of the republic in hiding) by the period of RoS, they should have to have many many times more ships than that. Not as many as the empire at its height, but still.  A lot more ships are needed (and people to crew them). It's presented as though this is the "largest fleet ever built", but we know mathematically that this is simply not true.
> 
> Which, of course, is why they had to punt by putting in planet killing weapons on them. So it's not the number, but that they have these weapons. Again though, why on earth didn't they deploy these ships (or just the weapons) before the events in Ep. 6? Two or three of them floating around Endor would have finished off the entire Rebel Fleet that much faster, right? It only makes sense if we assume that Palpatine had some prophesy/vision thing and knew he was going to die. Um... But then why didn't he just not hang out at the DS2 in the first place? Of course, that thought takes us down an entire rabbit hole of storywriting that only a full room of coked out Hollywood types could ever possibly think makes even the remotest bit of sense.
> 
> Palpatine's "plan"? That's... just... awful. Seriously. Just try to wrap your head around it. Can't. Be. Done.
> 
> 
> ...


I think this is the reason I haven't really accepted the sequel trilogy; it simply doesn't have as much thought as the OT or the PT. Looking through OT-era SF in the other thread, I'm struck by the immense amount of depth the early novelists put into the universe. They were backed by names like Alan Dean Foster, Brian Daley, Timothy Zahn.  All of those were big-name SF writers who put some serious thought into fleshing out the universe and its rules.  Sure, it's a space opera, but there was enough detail that nine-year-old me could seriously geek out on it. 

By contrast ... in the ST we have a splinter group knocking over the entire Republic with a weapon larger than the one it took the entire Empire decades to build.  Then we have all these ships in the core armed with planetkiller lasers. It just ... doesn't make sense. Not on any level. This isn't SF or even space opera; it's a comic-book movie. They don't care about insulting the intelligence of the audience, because they assume their audience of preteens just wants to see pretty visuals and big explosions.  

Frankly, I think they underestimate their target audience. *I* was paying attention to stuff at nine years old. 9-13 is about the age kids start finding hobbies and geeking the heck out about them. Trading baseball cards.  Arguing warhammer. Disputing the exact power level of Superman versus Goku.  

I think kids like detail and like consistency, and when they don't get it they're just as disappointed as any adult.  

I get that this is a fantasy story, but even fantasy sells better if it has a core of consistent world-building. It's one reason Dune and Lord of the Rings retain their popularity after decades in print. 






> Seriously. I think you are overthinking this. The ships that were there, were whatever ships were there. The ships you saw on the screen? Those were the cool new model that the film makers created for that film, so they showed it prominently. The whole point was to show an evolution of ships gradually changing over time, to show the gradual migration towards the Empire that Palpatine is about to bring about. It's not about logistics, or math, or even logic. It's about art.
> 
> It would step all over that art if they showed a small number of the "newer" design, and a massive horde of a mix of older designs. Yes. In a real naval battle, we should expect to see a large variety of different ships of different classes, models, and ages in any battle. But we don't get that because they are making an entertainment film, not a battle documentary.
> 
> 
> Psssst. It's also why the ships that Anakin and Kenobi are flying around in gradually shift in appearance to look closer to the TIE design over time too. It's not at all about accurately portraying the ships that should have been available in any given battle. It's 100% about creating a perception in the audience of the steady shift from Republic to Empire.



Well-reasoned. I think you have hit on exactly why the choices made in Episode III were made. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Peelee

> And this is one of the "other problems". Abrams just couldn't stop at "big honking fleet that will turn the tide of the conflict". That should have been enough. If we assume that the First Order is still in the "rebuilding and gaining territory/resources" phase, and is still (mostly) being blocked by various resitance groups, their biggest problem is that they just don't have the ships and men to maintain the level of control over the whole galaxy that they want/need, so more ships could push them over. I always got the sense that there was a sort of tipping point going on here. Not enough and you can't do more than cause problems in some regions of the galaxy (which we see a bit of in Resistance). But "just enough" and you can put sufficient force in any one location to basically cow the entire galaxy (as long as there isn't sufficient organized resistance to you).
> 
> Having said that though, a thousand more ships probably wouldn't do it anyway. Again, it's a problem with scale and what "large" is. To a hack director? 1000 ships is "a massive fleet". But realistically? To actually have the amount of control (and the resistance more or less on the run and the remnants of the republic in hiding) by the period of RoS, they should have to have many many times more ships than that. Not as many as the empire at its height, but still.  A lot more ships are needed (and people to crew them). It's presented as though this is the "largest fleet ever built", but we know mathematically that this is simply not true.
> 
> Which, of course, is why they had to punt by putting in planet killing weapons on them. So it's not the number, but that they have these weapons. Again though, why on earth didn't they deploy these ships (or just the weapons) before the events in Ep. 6? Two or three of them floating around Endor would have finished off the entire Rebel Fleet that much faster, right? It only makes sense if we assume that Palpatine had some prophesy/vision thing and knew he was going to die. Um... But then why didn't he just not hang out at the DS2 in the first place? Of course, that thought takes us down an entire rabbit hole of storywriting that only a full room of coked out Hollywood types could ever possibly think makes even the remotest bit of sense.
> 
> Palpatine's "plan"? That's... just... awful. Seriously. Just try to wrap your head around it. Can't. Be. Done.


Oh. Oh my. I just want to say, I'm so sorry for this. I'm about to pull back the curtain and show how this whole thing is just *so much dumber*. I don't want to break your brain with how ridiculous it is, so I just wanted to toss these warnings out here. Again, I'm so sorry.

Palpatine's Sith fleet on Exegol wasn't a thousand ships. It was ships that numbered ten thousand times what the First Order had. If the FO had a single star destroyer when their own commander made that statement? 10,000 Star Destroyers with Death Star superlasers

IIRC the First Order had around 250 Star Destroyers. So Palpatine had roighly 2,500,000 fully crewed ships that could each destroy entire planets.

----------


## pendell

> Oh. Oh my. I just want to say, I'm so sorry for this. I'm about to pull back the curtain and show how this whole thing is just *so much dumber*. I don't want to break your brain with how ridiculous it is, so I just wanted to toss these warnings out here. Again, I'm so sorry.
> 
> Palpatine's Sith fleet on Exegol wasn't a thousand ships. It was ships that numbered ten thousand times what the First Order had. If the FO had a single star destroyer when their own commander made that statement? 10,000 Star Destroyers with Death Star superlasers
> 
> IIRC the First Order had around 250 Star Destroyers. So Palpatine had roighly 2,500,000 fully crewed ships that could each destroy entire planets.


But... but... but... the Empire at its height only had 25,000 ISDs!  I grant you that 2+ million ships is more reasonable for a galactic empire ,but why the deuce would you leave them all stuck in the core for a rainy day?  Why build the DS2 in the first place?  

... I don't suppose there's any chance that the person claiming 10,000x the First Order's ships could have been exaggerating for poetic effect? 

Whatever. The ST is out of my personal fanon. Maybe someday there'll be a reboot and maybe not.  But that's just crazy. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Peelee

> But... but... but... the Empire at its height only had 25,000 ISDs!  I grant you that 2+ million ships is more reasonable for a galactic empire ,but why the deuce would you leave them all stuck in the core for a rainy day?  Why build the DS2 in the first place?


 


> Again, I'm so sorry.





> ... I don't suppose there's any chance that the person claiming 10,000x the First Order's ships could have been exaggerating for poetic effect?


IIRC it was a commander in the FO who was in a meeting on whether or not to accept the offer to ally with Exogol. I can't be more accurate than that, Q&D research didn't pull anything up immediately and I haven't seen that one as much as I've seen other Star Wars media.



> Whatever. The ST is out of my personal fanon. Maybe someday there'll be a reboot


God willing.  :Small Wink:

----------


## Aeson

> Seriously. I think you are overthinking this. The ships that were there, were whatever ships were there. The ships you saw on the screen? Those were the cool new model that the film makers created for that film, so they showed it prominently. The whole point was to show an evolution of ships gradually changing over time, to show the gradual migration towards the Empire that Palpatine is about to bring about. It's not about logistics, or math, or even logic. It's about art.
> 
> It would step all over that art if they showed a small number of the  "newer" design, and a massive horde of a mix of older designs. Yes. In a  real naval battle, we should expect to see a large variety of different  ships of different classes, models, and ages in any battle. But we  don't get that because they are making an entertainment film, not a  battle documentary.


1. Implied wholesale replacement of ship types in service in under three years is many things, but 'gradual' is not one of them.

2. Lucasfilm is demonstrably capable of showing off the 'cool new models' while still retaining some of the old ones - just look at the CIS fleet in the opening scene of _Revenge of the Sith_, which, while mostly composed of new models, still has a few _Lucrehulk_s and a lot of Vulture droids. There was very clearly a decision to show a (comparatively) diverse CIS fleet which includes both new and old types; equally clearly, there was a decision to show a significantly more uniform Republic fleet comprised _entirely_ of new types.

Also, if it suits you to not think, then that's your choice, but saying in effect that "it's just art; you shouldn't think about what it's implying about the world being depicted" is rather worthless as a contribution to a discussion about what a movie (or book, painting, et cetera) says about a fictional setting.

----------


## pendell

> 2. Lucasfilm is demonstrably capable of showing off the 'cool new models' while still retaining some of the old ones - just look at the CIS fleet in the opening scene of Revenge of the Sith, which, while mostly composed of new models, still has a few Lucrehulks and a lot of Vulture droids. There was very clearly a decision to show a (comparatively) diverse CIS fleet which includes both new and old types; equally clearly, there was a decision to show a significantly more uniform Republic fleet comprised entirely of new types.


Actually, there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for why we have all-new ships at the battle of Coruscant; it's because the older ships all got blown to bits or otherwise rendered unfit for service. 

There's real-world precedence for this: The USSR in 1941-1943 replaced pretty much its entire tank fleet because the original T-60s, T-70s, BT-5s, BT-7s, and who knows what else of the prewar era were all destroyed in the first few months of Barbarossa. The factories had to work multiple shifts to pump out replacements, which were of course the far more capable T-34. 

As I recall, Palpatine's plan for the war is a bloody stalemate in which large-scale attrition is a feature, not a bug. It's all part of his plan to militarize the Republic and convert it into the Galactic Empire. That requires a military emergency, and that means the Republic needs to be put under as much military pressure as possible. Enough heat to keep them suffering, not so much as to cause a loss of morale and suing for peace. 

Given his plan is to kill clones in large numbers, it makes sense that a lot of the early Republic fleet was also destroyed, making way for the _Venator_ class and its cousins. 

Respectfully, 

Brian P.

----------


## Mechalich

> Actually, there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for why we have all-new ships at the battle of Coruscant; it's because the older ships all got blown to bits or otherwise rendered unfit for service.


This also explains why the Empire quickly switched off Venators but retained other ship classes, including in many cases older ones. Venators are primarily _carriers_, and having their main ship of the line be a carrier didn't suit the Tarkin doctrine or overall Imperial Navy philosophy. The navy had strong objections to hyperspace-capable starfighters capable of long-term independent operations, mostly for ideological, not military reasons - those reasons were actually borne out, fighter pilots had an extremely high defection rate - and therefore Venators were anathema to how they wanted to run the navy.  As such, high command basically decided the entire class was 'unfit for service' and replaced them as fast as they could. 

This was, of course, a catastrophically bad idea, since all space combat in Star Wars is just WWII naval combat, and in that environment aircraft (starfighters) are everything.

----------


## Aeson

> Actually, there's a perfectly reasonable  explanation for why we have all-new ships at the battle of Coruscant;  it's because the older ships all got blown to bits or otherwise rendered  unfit for service.


1. "All the older ships got blown up" is basically an "EU ships don't exist" argument. If you have thousands of servicable _Venator_s at the end of the Clone Wars and only a handful of surviving _Dreadnought_s aren't crippled by battle damage, you don't keep the _Dreadnought_s in service while discarding the _Venator_s when the _Venator_s  are newer and more capable units with similar crew requirements. If  there are truly so few pre-war and early-war ships left by the time the  Clone Wars end, they're getting scrapped more or less immediately in  favor of all those late-war ships that the now-Imperial Navy has in  abundance.

2. The CIS might not be about to collapse, but it certainly appears to be on the back foot as things stand by _Revenge of the Sith_  - the Outer Rim sieges may not be going anywhere quickly, but they're  generally Republic operations against CIS strongholds; major CIS fleets  may be on the loose, but they're being hunted; the CIS leadership is in  hiding or on the run. This being the case, it would be strange for the  losses sustained by the Republic and CIS navies to have been extremely  disproportionate in the CIS' favor.




> Given his plan is to kill clones in large numbers, it makes sense that a  lot of the early Republic fleet was also destroyed, making way for the _Venator_ class and its cousins.


The _Acclamator_s and later _Venator_s  might be universally clone-crewed (though that puts even more strain on  the million-odd clones that the Kaminoans are supposed to have prepared  for the Republic by _Attack of the Clones_), but things like the EU's _Dreadnought_s,  which were notionally in various planetary defense forces or the  Republic Judicial Forces before the war began, presumably aren't. Jedi  and clones might suffer in silence as they march into the meatgrinder;  nationalized PDF personnel probably won't.

Also, stalemate and  attrition may be what Palpatine wants for most of the war, but there are  likely significant limits on just how badly Palpatine can deliberately  mishandle things - especially early on, when his position presumably  isn't as secure as it later becomes. He needs to at least create the  illusion that he's meeting the crisis competently or his political  opponents - and potentially his more ambitious and opportunistic allies -  are going to start smelling blood in the water and seek to displace him  the way he displaced Valorum. Losing 90% or more of the pre- and  early-war naval forces - especially when, per the EU, a lot of those are  non-clone forces - is not a good look, especially not when the  continued presence of _Lucrehulk_s (which, I might add, are _converted freighters_  rather than purpose-built warships) in CIS fleets at the end of the war  suggests that their losses have not been similarly bad and do not  demonstrably have anything like overwhelming numerical superiority even  at the outbreak of the war.




> There's real-world precedence for this: The USSR in 1941-1943 replaced  pretty much its entire tank fleet because the original T-60s, T-70s,  BT-5s, BT-7s, and who knows what else of the prewar era were all  destroyed in the first few months of Barbarossa. The factories had to  work multiple shifts to pump out replacements, which were of course the  far more capable T-34.


Might I point out that there is ever  so slight a difference in complexity and scale between a ~6.7-meter tank  and a kilometer-long space battleship? And probably also in crew  survival rates, given the propensity of ships in _Star Wars_ to be ripped apart by catastrophic explosions when destroyed on-screen?

----------


## hamishspence

> Losing 90% or more of the pre- and  early-war naval forces - especially when, per the EU, a lot of those are  non-clone forces - is not a good look, especially not when the  continued presence of _Lucrehulk_s (which, I might add, are _converted freighters_  rather than purpose-built warships) in CIS fleets at the end of the war  suggests that their losses have not been similarly bad and do not  demonstrably have anything like overwhelming numerical superiority even  at the outbreak of the war.


_Early_-model Lucrehulks were converted freighters, with all the flaws thereof. 


_Late_-model ones were closer to being "true warships".

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Luc...ass_battleship




> Lining the equatorial bands in batteries of three, were quad turbolaser cannons capable of rotating inwards when not in use. Their limited coverage of the hull made the early battleship models vulnerable, and made them rely more on the massive number of starfighters carried to defend the ships against enemy starfighters. This was, however, rectified with later ships whose armor and shields proved too strong for starfighter firepower, the fact becoming quickly apparent at the Battle of Naboo.[1] The preClone Wars models of the battleships did have major defense flaws, as Anakin Skywalker was able to fly his starfighter into the hangar of a Droid Control Ship and destroy the starboard main reactor by accident. The resulting explosion destroyed the battleship and ensured a Naboo victory.
> 
> *Clone Warsera battleship*
> 
> Lucrehulk-class battleships that fought in the Clone Wars had less trouble with weak spots, as they were augmented with gun batteries and much stronger shielding. Batteries of long guns and heavy guns complemented the additional quad turbolaser batteries added to the Lucrehulk superstructure when the war erupted.[13][14]
> 
> Each ship was also now so powerful due to the increased amount of power devoted to offensive and defensive systems that a whole flotilla of Republic Star Destroyers was needed just to bring down a Lucrehulk's shields.[15] The Clone Wars refitted models were true battleships and were among the most powerful ships in the Confederate Navy.

----------


## The Glyphstone

FWIW, Lucrehulks might be converted freighters, but they're apparently _really effectively_ converted freighters. According to NuCanon, they're twice the size of a Venator and carry roughly 8-9 times the firepower. In Legends, "a whole flotilla of Republic Star Destroyers was needed just to bring down a Lucrehulk's shields".


https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Luc...ass_Battleship
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ven...troyer#Weapons



Eh, ninjaed.

----------


## Aeson

> According to NuCanon, they're twice the size of a Venator and carry roughly 8-9 times the firepower.


And they can't concentrate that firepower worth a damn - just look at the shape of the ship; 50% or more of its surface area is masked no matter what orientation it's at, so you're probably looking at, at best, 60% of its firepower concentrated on any one target. Compare that to a Star Destroyer hullform, which probably gets you something like 90% of the ship's firepower concentrated in the forward arc as long as the turrets are placed sensibly. Eight or nine times the firepower is not that impressive when only ~half of it can be brought to bear on any one target and the ship that's carrying it is ~3 times as wide as a _Venator_ is long.




> In Legends, "a whole flotilla of Republic Star Destroyers was needed just to bring down a Lucrehulk's shields".


This is the same material that says that a couple dozen torpedoes whose launch systems and magazines can fit onto starfighters ~10 meters long can bring down the shields of and then gut Star Destroyers that are well over a kilometer long, and yet those Star Destroyers carry turbolasers - not the hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of torpedo launchers that they could probably fit - for engaging one another.

For some reason, I am not particularly inclined to trust what the EU says about shield strength.

----------


## Mechalich

> This is the same material that says that a couple dozen torpedoes whose launch systems and magazines can fit onto starfighters ~10 meters long can bring down the shields of and then gut Star Destroyers that are well over a kilometer long, and yet those Star Destroyers carry turbolasers - not the hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of torpedo launchers that they could probably fit - for engaging one another.
> 
> For some reason, I am not particularly inclined to trust what the EU says about shield strength.


_WWII naval combat_. A single well placed torpedo or bomb hit by an aircraft could destroy battleship or aircraft carrier and even a handful of solid hits were almost certain to do so. Did those ships carry torpedoes or bombs of their own? No, they did not. They possessed weapons designed for engaging other capital ships, heavy bombardment, and point defense, which is exactly what Star Destroyers possess. 

Now, the Legends EU did bring in additional permutations. Specifically the balance of power between missile weapons, lasers, and shields changes over time in the Star Wars universe. The Imperial Era represents a time period in which missile technology was dominant, the punch packed by proton torpedoes/concussion missiles is immense, with even a few hundred launchers capable of bringing down the largest dreadnaughts. There is some evidence that this is a recent development, possibly traced to a breakthrough during the Clone Wars, and that most of the galaxy's navies have not adjusted yet - the Mon Calamari build their Star Cruisers to roughly the same specs as a Star Destroyer after all.

----------


## Aeson

> _WWII naval combat_. A single well  placed torpedo or bomb hit by an aircraft could destroy battleship or  aircraft carrier and even a handful of solid hits were almost certain to  do so. Did those ships carry torpedoes or bombs of their own? No, they  did not. They possessed weapons designed for engaging other capital  ships, heavy bombardment, and point defense, which is exactly what Star  Destroyers possess.


1. Typical Second World War naval torpedoes have _atrocious_  hit rates - on average, something less than 7% of Japanese torpedoes  fired by surface combatants against other surface combatants hit their  targets, and a large part of that comes from engagements where their  targets didn't actually know that Japanese torpedoes could reach them at  the ranges at which they were engaged; they are also physically large and have very low rates of fire compared to other weapons which could be carried and impose a number of vulnerabilities on the ships mounting them (poorly-armored and difficult-to-rearm-in-combat fire/explosion hazard for deck mounts, large easily-flooded void space for underwater mounts). None of this would appear to be true to any relevant degree for Star Wars torpedoes - torpedoes behave like and probably have hit rates similar to guided missiles and are small enough that starfighters like the X-Wing can carry two torpedo launchers with half a dozen torpedoes between them, and given what turbolasers and other weapons appear to do to targets whose shields fail it seems unlikely that even very large torpedo magazines represent a significant vulnerability: if the shields fail, the ship blows up in short order regardless; whether or not it has a large quantity of unexpended ordnance aboard to make it explode more vigorously would seem largely irrelevant.

2. Star Destroyers are space ships; they do not flood, list, capsize, or sink when torpedoed.

3.  Real world torpedoes and battleship guns are not really designed  against the same set of defenses - a Second World War warship's primary  defense against gunfire is its armor, which hopefully excludes or at  least breaks up incoming shells; its primary defense against torpedoes,  meanwhile, is compartmentalization and simply being big enough to absorb  the hit without being hurt too badly. This is not the case for Star  Wars torpedoes and missiles, which need to overcome essentially the same  defenses as turbolasers and laser cannons and ion cannons in order to  be effective - and yes, I know that there's at least two different types  of shields that could be utilized to protect Star Wars ships, but you'd  expect that warship designers would use weapons with the greatest  relative advantage over available defenses. I'll give you a hint: If  Star Destroyer-scale opponents can slug it out with one another despite  all their guns whereas merely a few dozen fighter-compatible torpedoes  will kill them, it's not the turbolasers and ion cannons and laser  cannons that have the greatest relative advantage over existing  defenses.

4. Depending on type, Star Destroyers notionally carry dozens to_ hundreds_  of anti-ship turbolasers and ion cannons. The battles we see between  peer or near-peer opponents do not appear to be decided by the first  salvo, nor the second, the third, or even the tenth, yet EU material  asks that we believe a single volley of two or three dozen torpedoes can  kill a Star Destroyer? That says that starfighter torpedoes are _at least_  an order of magnitude or two more powerful than turbolaser - this, on a  system that fits on something about a million times smaller than a Star  Destroyer by volume or ten thousand times smaller by surface area.

5.  Related to (4), that tactic of volleying torpedoes at capital ships? It  failed against a converted freighter at Naboo; the only other place we  possibly saw it, at Endor, the ship so engaged had also been established  as the primary target of the _entire Rebel fleet_, and the shots that penetrated _Executor_'s  shields did remarkably little to the command tower given that EU  material would have you believe it only takes a dozen or so missiles to  gut a regular Star Destroyer.

6. Another point of reference for  the effectiveness of Star Wars torpedoes against capital ships is the  attack on the first Death Star - the torpedoes that missed the target  exhaust port appear not to have inflicted any noteworthy damage. Possibly the Death  Star's armor is unusually heavy, but even so this is not a promising  sign for the accuracy of EU material that claims this to be a weapon  that's effective against capital ships without needing to target  anything particularly vulnerable.

7. Star Wars warships do not  appear to have active defenses capable of engaging missiles/torpedoes,  and even their anti-starfighter armament seems limited. This is a  strange choice if torpedoes are as potent as EU material would have you  believe - especially given that at the engagement ranges we're shown in _Revenge of the Sith_, _Return of the Jedi_, and _Rise of Skywalker_ you could probably have a reasonable expectation of scoring hits with dumbfire rockets.

8. While it is _possible_  to explain away Imperial disdain for starfighters, doing so without  saying, in effect, that they're just stupid becomes significantly more  difficult when starfighter weapons like proton torpedoes are powerful  enough to allow small numbers of starfighters operating to pose a credible threat  to capital ships without exploiting specific vulnerabilities like the lack of shielding over a secondary exhaust port on the first Death Star. Star Wars tacticians do not have the real-world excuse  of torpedo-armed strike craft being slow, ungainly, underpowered things  in the preceding two decades, and while Star Wars torpedoes might be  short-ranged,* they're certainly not dumbfire - and even if they were,  Star Destroyers are rather enormous and inconveniently-proportioned units to try 'combing the wake' of  an incoming spread of torpedoes. If Star Wars torpedoes are as dangerous  as EU material says that they are, a dismissal of starfighters as a  significant threat to major warships makes about as much sense  in-universe as a dismissal of anti-ship missiles as a serious threat to  modern warships does today.

* It's not clear that they're  significantly shorter-ranged than capital ship weapons - the graphic  used to illustrate the attack on the first Death Star certainly appears  to indicate that the torpedoes would travel a significant fraction of  the radius of the Death Star before detonating while the Death Star  hologram in _Attack of the Clones_ appears to show only a  relatively small presumptive-reactor core at the Death Star's heart, and  for the engagement ranges we see capital ships dueling at in the movies a  missile or torpedo with a ~60-80km range is probably sufficient.

Basically,  EU material is full of nonsense when it comes to the power of  starfighter weapons. The authors of the books and game storylines wanted  to focus on starfighters and include iconic ships like Star Destroyers,  but they didn't want to have the starfighters have to rely on the  support of friendly capital ships - or sheer dumb luck, like  crash-landing in the enemy's hangar and then recovering enough to  torpedo it from the inside - to accomplish their objectives, so they  took a weapon from the movies and turned it into a superweapon that  grossly outperforms the weapon shown in the films.

----------


## Peelee

> a  missile or torpedo with a ~60-80km range.


Their torpedoes likely don't have that range and their targeting systems absolutely do not. Lasers do. A Star Destroyer in orbit can attack a planet - Death Squadron in ESB is unable to assault the base on Hoth because the rebels raised their shields because they came in too close, which upset Vader. Meanwhile, Gold and Red squadrons had to get right up to the Death Star exhaust port in order to fire off its missiles. We even see the distance to firing range counting down, with at least one not making it. This is also the case in the EU, it is often a minor plot point that an X-Wing pilot must get close to a frigate or capital ship to use its torpedoes, and while the Star Destroyers have the range to hit the snub fighters their turbo lasers don't have the maneuverability to track them effectively. Meanwhile, Carrack class anti-starfighter frigates explicitly do have lasers that sacrifice a little power for agility and can not only track and kill starfighters but also can outrange their torpedo targeting systems. In one of the X-Wing books Corran tries to make a run for one of them and it's explicitly laid out he would not be able to get a targeting lock on it before he was in range of their lasers and would be killed (he would also need to be able to have a steady flight for the lock which is also impossible as he survived it by constantly randomly juking).

And even then, they need very large amounts of missiles to take down a frigate, or even just the shields on a capital ship. Dozens. These aren't the superweapon you're making them out to be.

----------


## Mechalich

> And even then, they need very large amounts of missiles to take down a frigate, or even just the shields on a capital ship. Dozens. These aren't the superweapon you're making them out to be.


There is, admittedly, significant variation. Large capital ships in Star Wars can both take an incredible pounding and remain operational _or_ incur catastrophic structural failure upon taking relatively little damage. Once again, this traces to the WWII naval combat inspiration, as bomb and torpedo hits could easily destroy a ship if they hit in the right place, but they could also do minimal damage if they hit in the wrong one. We even see this with other weapons. As early as the original Thrawn trilogy, Zhan rammed a Dreadnaught into a Star Destroyer that was essentially undamaged and destroyed it utterly, but there was no guarantee that would have happened. 

Missile equipped fighters _are_ very powerful, and even fighters using just lasers can do considerable surface damage if they are attacking an unshielded target - Red Squadron in ANH tears up all sorts of surface emplacements on the Death Star while covering for Gold Squadron, but they are not invincible. Starfighters also have very low survivability, with units often taking hideous casualties. The EU, admittedly, hasn't been especially good at showing that simply because the various squadron-based stories that focus on starfighter combat have to apply plot armor in order to keep the casualty levels low enough to actually sustain the story. A useful comparison here is the 2019 film Midway, in which the US fighter squadrons take more or less historically accurate combat losses and as a consequence the majority of the important characters die immediately prior to the victorious climax, which turns what was, strategically decisive victory into a rather bittersweet affair onscreen. Ultimately, Rogue and Wraith Squadron are not a good example of what typical starfighter units can do. This should not come as a surprise.

----------


## Aeson

> Their torpedoes likely don't have that range and their targeting systems  absolutely do not. Lasers do. A Star Destroyer in orbit can attack a  planet - Death Squadron in ESB is unable to assault the base on Hoth  because the rebels raised their shields because they came in too close,  which upset Vader. Meanwhile, Gold and Red squadrons had to get right up  to the Death Star exhaust port in order to fire off its missiles. We  even see the distance to firing range counting down, with at least one  not making it.


You know that the scene in ANH that you  reference has six figures on the targeting computer range display,  right? That the specific target in question is supposed to be difficult to hit, which tends to reduce effective engagement range? That the countdowns for Gold Leader, Red Leader, and Red Five  start at between about 29,000 and 47,000 when first seen in the movie? That Wedge explicitly states  that a tower which apparently marks the exhaust port shows up on his  scopes shortly after entering the trench, before Luke turns on the  targeting computer and we see his countdown begin at about 35,000? That  the countdown is range to firing point, and the target, per the mission  briefing, is the reactor core apparently at the center of the Death Star - which, per the graphic used in the mission briefing and the hologram  seen in _Attack of the Clones_, would appear to be fairly small  relative to the overall size of the Death Star, putting it ~half the  Death Star's diameter beyond the firing point?

Yes, the  starfighters had to close to within some relatively short distance of  the exhaust port before firing. This does not impose nearly as strong an  upper bound on their range as you seem to think it does, because their  actual target - the Death Star's reactor core - is up to about half the  Death Star's diameter beyond the firing point and there's little to no  evidence of Star Wars missiles, torpedoes, or ships employing  burn-and-drift maneuvers; additionally, the targeting systems _are locking onto something at multiple tens of thousands of range units_.  Those range units are not explicitly specified in the movie, but  "meters" are used in the mission briefing, and with kilometers being too  big and centimeters too small to be reasonable there's not really another  common metric unit that makes sense in context.




> And even then, they need very large amounts of missiles to take down a  frigate, or even just the shields on a capital ship. Dozens. These  aren't the superweapon you're making them out to be.


The same  EU that has a few dozen torpedoes crippling or killing a Star Destroyer says  that those Star Destroyers carry 60 heavy turbolaser "batteries" (which  would imply at least two guns per, so 120+ heavy turbolaser cannons as  written and still 60 heavy turbolaser cannons if you assume that the  person who made up that figure didn't understand that there is a  difference between a gun _battery_ and a gun) and 60 ion cannons  while suggesting engagement durations in excess of a minute when  relatively evenly-matched forces are involved. Observed rates of fire  for individual weapon emplacements in the movies would suggest that  these guns probably have at least a burst rate of fire sufficient to get  off several salvos inside of a minute, and the hull form of a Star  Destroyer should allow for something in excess of three quarters of its  weapons emplacements to concentrate on targets in a reasonable arc ahead  of the ship if the guns are not idiotically placed. By the EU's  numbers, then, you're probably looking at a minimum of 200 heavy  turbolaser and ion cannon shots to threaten a Star Destroyer, as opposed  to 24 torpedoes. At those kinds of numbers, a lower bound of about an  order of magnitude difference between a shot from an 'average' Star  Destroyer anti-ship gun and a proton torpedo would not be unreasonable.

Meanwhile,  the movies depict starfighter torpedo and missile systems as largely or entirely  ineffective against capital ships that haven't lost their shields and  don't have a specific exploitable vulnerability, nor are there any signs  of any attempts to employ such supposedly-effective tactics as massed  starfighter-launched torpedo volleys against major warships; starfighters instead appear  limited to harassing large warships and occasionally exploiting  vulnerabilities like loss of shields to inflict damage on some of the  softer parts of capital ships.

----------


## Peelee

> You know that the scene in ANH that you  reference has six figures on the targeting computer range display,  right? That the specific target in question is supposed to be difficult to hit, which tends to reduce effective engagement range? That the countdowns for Gold Leader, Red Leader, and Red Five  start at between about 29,000 and 47,000 when first seen in the movie? That Wedge explicitly states  that a tower which apparently marks the exhaust port shows up on his  scopes shortly after entering the trench, before Luke turns on the  targeting computer and we see his countdown begin at about 35,000? That  the countdown is range to firing point, and the target, per the mission  briefing, is the reactor core apparently at the center of the Death Star - which, per the graphic used in the mission briefing and the hologram  seen in _Attack of the Clones_, would appear to be fairly small  relative to the overall size of the Death Star, putting it ~half the  Death Star's diameter beyond the firing point?
> 
> Yes, the  starfighters had to close to within some relatively short distance of  the exhaust port before firing. This does not impose nearly as strong an  upper bound on their range as you seem to think it does, because their  actual target - the Death Star's reactor core - is up to about half the  Death Star's diameter beyond the firing point and there's little to no  evidence of Star Wars missiles, torpedoes, or ships employing  burn-and-drift maneuvers; additionally, the targeting systems _are locking onto something at multiple tens of thousands of range units_.  Those range units are not explicitly specified in the movie, but  "meters" are used in the mission briefing, and with kilometers being too  big and centimeters too small to be reasonable there's not really another  common metric unit that makes sense in context.


Sounds like a lot of words to say "yes, their targeting computers are indeed limited severely by range, even against massive capital ships as we see in the EU".

Notwithstanding that we can see the X-Wings move in relation to the trench and it is abundantly clear they are not moving at thousands of kilometers per second, much less orders of magnitude that amount. Other people did the math simply looking at the amount that the countdown has dropped in one second, you can work out the speed, and if it is meters, they are moving between 1900 km/s and 3400km/s depending on ship and run (ironically, the Y-Wings are the speed demons and Luke at "full throttle" is pulling the most sluggish), or 100,000 kilometers per hour at the _slowest_ speed.

Probably not meters.

----------


## gbaji

> Oh. Oh my. I just want to say, I'm so sorry for this. I'm about to pull back the curtain and show how this whole thing is just *so much dumber*. I don't want to break your brain with how ridiculous it is, so I just wanted to toss these warnings out here. Again, I'm so sorry.
> 
> Palpatine's Sith fleet on Exegol wasn't a thousand ships. It was ships that numbered ten thousand times what the First Order had. If the FO had a single star destroyer when their own commander made that statement? 10,000 Star Destroyers with Death Star superlasers
> 
> IIRC the First Order had around 250 Star Destroyers. So Palpatine had roighly 2,500,000 fully crewed ships that could each destroy entire planets.


I actually re-watched the ST recently (as in, over the Holiday break). I don't recall any specific numbers for the fleet size being stated at all (I certainly could have missed it though). Just that it was a "massive fleet". I was going by what someone else posted earlier in this thread (1080 ships I think?), assuming that person maybe had info I did not. I'm not one of those people who pours over star wars sites gleaning information like this. I just watch the films and series and base my observations on that.

Again though, this is a "forest for the trees" problem. If we assume the First Order somehow had enough ships and people to actually be the threat they were (which, frankly, is never really explained in the first place), they would have to have a *lot* of ships. The way they are presented in Resistance and the ST, I get the impression it's less "galactic power" as "enough power by people who are ideologically aligned to impose that power in any one of a handful of parts of the galaxy at any given moment" vs "The rest of the galaxy, who didn't really gel well into forming more than a token New Republic, and more or less went right back to their own bickering ways once the Empire itself collapsed".

I'm still waiting for the bits in-between to be detailed in film or series though. We go from the events in Mandalorian, where there are a handful of small holdouts from the Empire floating around, causing trouble here and there, with the New Republic seemingly having enough power and influence to hand out the equivalent of speeding tickets, to "OMG the First Order has risen to power and created a superweapon that destroys the new Senate", followed by "OMGGGG! The First Order is hunting down our last handful of capital ships and we're doomed!", to "OMGZZZ! They have an even bigger badder fleet they're about to launch with planet killers, but now, magically, everyone will show up and help for... reasons".

I recall a Cracked article that talked about how improbable a Zombie Appocolypse actually is from a mechanical standpoint, observing that we're always shown just the initial start, and then jump right to "everyone is dead and zombies are everywhere!", leaving out the in-between bits because they realistically would never make sense. That's kinda how I feel about the entire First Order storyline. It's the kind of story that you're supposed to just accept and not really think about too much because the people writing it didn't either.




> 1. Implied wholesale replacement of ship types in service in under three years is many things, but 'gradual' is not one of them.


Um... "gradual" from the point of view of the audience. You're still missing that this is a group of art type people creating visuals for a series of films intended, not to satisfy sci fi geeks math, but to influence people into buying movie tickets. Theme and style are vastly more important than math and logic and common sense. You're trying to make things make sense as if SW was a real universe. The folks creating those visuals are literally told "we want to show the audence that the Republic is becoming the Empire". That's it. That's the entire objective of the designs used in the PT.

And honestly? It worked. Heck. I got chills in my spine when I saw the designs for the ships in the "Army of the Republic" when they show up at the end of Ep. 2. Just enough of a proto-empire look to have the exact effect they were going for. That's all art at work.




> 2. Lucasfilm is demonstrably capable of showing off the 'cool new models' while still retaining some of the old ones - just look at the CIS fleet in the opening scene of _Revenge of the Sith_, which, while mostly composed of new models, still has a few _Lucrehulk_s and a lot of Vulture droids. There was very clearly a decision to show a (comparatively) diverse CIS fleet which includes both new and old types; equally clearly, there was a decision to show a significantly more uniform Republic fleet comprised _entirely_ of new types.


Again. The objective with the designs is to show how the Republic is changing into the Empire. The whole point (from a design pov) is to make the audience associate the "good guys" (The Republic) with the Empire from the Original Series, and the "bad guys" (The Separatists) with the Rebels from the OS. You're supposed to feel "bad" about cheering on the Republic and the clones because you know they are the good guys in the story, but also know that they will become the Empire at the end.

It's intentional that you're supposed to feel this conflict and wonder "which side am I really supposed to be rooting for?". So yeah. Diverse CIS ships parallels the diverse nature of the Rebel Fleet. Again. By design. Increasingly standardized Imperial style for the Republic? Also by design.




> Also, if it suits you to not think, then that's your choice, but saying in effect that "it's just art; you shouldn't think about what it's implying about the world being depicted" is rather worthless as a contribution to a discussion about what a movie (or book, painting, et cetera) says about a fictional setting.


I wouldn't lable what I'm doing here "not thinking". I'm just including other factors into my thinking that you are not. You are focusing on just one aspect of the decision making process. I'm looking at the whole thing. And yeah. I'm concluding that you are trying really really hard to fit the sqare peg of what's seen on screen with the round hole of what makes sense "in universe", because you are not considering factors that exist outside that "in universe" viewpoint (it's a film franchise and they want to sell a story to the audience and that story is not actually about ships).

Hence my statement that you are overthinking things. Perhaps "overfocused thinking" may have been a better term, I guess.

----------


## Peelee

> I actually re-watched the ST recently (as in, over the Holiday break). I don't recall any specific numbers for the fleet size being stated at all (I certainly could have missed it though). Just that it was a "massive fleet". I was going by what someone else posted earlier in this thread (1080 ships I think?), assuming that person maybe had info I did not. I'm not one of those people who pours over star wars sites gleaning information like this. I just watch the films and series and base my observations on that.
> 
> Again though, this is a "forest for the trees" problem. If we assume the First Order somehow had enough ships and people to actually be the threat they were (which, frankly, is never really explained in the first place), they would have to have a *lot* of ships. The way they are presented in Resistance and the ST, I get the impression it's less "galactic power" as "enough power by people who are ideologically aligned to impose that power in any one of a handful of parts of the galaxy at any given moment" vs "The rest of the galaxy, who didn't really gel well into forming more than a token New Republic, and more or less went right back to their own bickering ways once the Empire itself collapsed".
> 
> I'm still waiting for the bits in-between to be detailed in film or series though. We go from the events in Mandalorian, where there are a handful of small holdouts from the Empire floating around, causing trouble here and there, with the New Republic seemingly having enough power and influence to hand out the equivalent of speeding tickets, to "OMG the First Order has risen to power and created a superweapon that destroys the new Senate", followed by "OMGGGG! The First Order is hunting down our last handful of capital ships and we're doomed!", to "OMGZZZ! They have an even bigger badder fleet they're about to launch with planet killers, but now, magically, everyone will show up and help for... reasons".
> 
> I recall a Cracked article that talked about how improbable a Zombie Appocolypse actually is from a mechanical standpoint, observing that we're always shown just the initial start, and then jump right to "everyone is dead and zombies are everywhere!", leaving out the in-between bits because they realistically would never make sense. That's kinda how I feel about the entire First Order storyline. It's the kind of story that you're supposed to just accept and not really think about too much because the people writing it didn't either.


There are novels that go into the in-between phase. They do little except vaguely hint at a power in the unknown regions, so you still have the same effect.

----------


## Aeson

> Sounds like a lot of words to say "yes, their  targeting computers are indeed limited severely by range, even against  massive capital ships as we see in the EU".
> 
> Notwithstanding that we can see the X-Wings move in relation to the  trench and it is abundantly clear they are not moving at thousands of  kilometers per second, much less orders of magnitude that amount. Other  people did the math simply looking at the amount that the countdown has  dropped in one second, you can work out the speed, and if it is meters,  they are moving between 1900 km/s and 3400km/s depending on ship and run  (ironically, the Y-Wings are the speed demons and Luke at "full  throttle" is pulling the most sluggish), or 100,000 kilometers per hour  at the _slowest_ speed.
> 
> Probably not meters.


1. It appears to me that a certain silver dragon needs to check his units. A range counter ticking down at a few thousand _meters_ per second does not in fact imply a relative velocity of thousands of _kilometers_ per second, nor anything "orders of magnitude [something] that amount."

2.  2,000 to 4,000 meters per second is 2 to 4 kilometers per second or  7,200 to 14,400 kilometers per hour. This is definitely fast, but it is  something rather significantly less than your claim of "100,000  kilometers per hour at the _slowest_ speed."

Also, you  need to check your math, because even a very rough order-of-magnitude  estimate should tell you that 1,900 km/s is not 100,000 km/h - the  conversion factor from kilometers per second to kilometers per hour is  3600 seconds per hour, and a number in the thousands multiplied by  another number in the thousands should give a number that's at least in  the millions while a number that's about three and a half multiplied by a number that's about two should give a number that's about seven. 1900 km/s is about 6.8 million kilometers per hour; 3400  km/s is about 12 million kilometers per hour.

3. We can with a fair degree of certainty claim that the targeting system is designed for engaging targets _larger_  than two-meter exhaust ports - probably substantially larger - and yet  it nonetheless appears to be capable of identifying a two-meter target,  computing a firing solution, and displaying a range-to-firing-position  at ranges of up to almost 50,000 of whatever unit is in use. Larger  targets should be possible to acquire at longer ranges, and Star Wars  has some _significantly_ larger potential targets than two-meter exhaust ports that this system might have been designed to acquire.

4. The use of "meters" to describe the size of the target suggests that  the metric system is in use. What metric unit of distance do you propose  to use for the range counter, if not meters? Centimeters are too small  to be reasonable; decimeters might work, but are uncommon and, as with  centimeters, don't really make sense when you're talking about tens of  thousands of them. Nonetheless, if it _is_ in decimeters rather  than meters, the fact that the range display is configured to show six  figures rather than just five suggests that the system is intended to  show ranges out to somewhere between ten and one hundred kilometers  (100,000 to 999,999 decimeters) - probably more than ten kilometers,  since if it's only meant to go out to ten kilometers, well, there's not  much meaningful difference between 100,000 decimeters and 99,999  decimeters.




> Increasingly standardized Imperial style  for the Republic? Also by design.


_Attack of the Clones_ shows a Republic fleet which is, to appearances, composed entirely of _Acclamator_s; _Revenge of the Sith_ shows one which seems to be entirely _Venator_s. Going from 100% Type 1 Big Flying Wedge to 100% Type 2 Big Flying Wedge shows "increasingly standardized Imperial style for the Republic?"

Also, as much as the opening crawl of _Revenge of the Sith_ might say that there's "heroes on both sides" of the Clone Wars, pretty much nothing about the film portrayal of the CIS is sympathetic. I don't see how you're supposed to be confused about whether or not you're supposed to root for them.

----------


## Palanan

Ah, yes.  Two intractable Star Wars arguments going simultaneously in two different threads.


*Spoiler*
Show





Except....


*Spoiler*
Show

----------


## Fyraltari

> Ah, yes.  Two intractable Star Wars arguments going simultaneously in two different threads.


Just you wait till I get on with season 6 of TCW, there'll be 4 concurrent _Star Wars_ threads!

----------


## gbaji

> _Attack of the Clones_ shows a Republic fleet which is, to appearances, composed entirely of _Acclamator_s; _Revenge of the Sith_ shows one which seems to be entirely _Venator_s. Going from 100% Type 1 Big Flying Wedge to 100% Type 2 Big Flying Wedge shows "increasingly standardized Imperial style for the Republic?"


Yes. Because they represent artistic stages towards the "classic" Imperial Star Destroyer seen in the Original Trilogy. Again. You're getting too caught up in specs on fan sites and not just looking at the images of these things on screen over time. That's what the audience sees. That's what the folks creating the designs for the ships they see are aiming at.




> Also, as much as the opening crawl of _Revenge of the Sith_ might say that there's "heroes on both sides" of the Clone Wars, pretty much nothing about the film portrayal of the CIS is sympathetic. I don't see how you're supposed to be confused about whether or not you're supposed to root for them.


I said "we dont' know which side we should be rooting for". It's not about rooting *for* the CIS. It's about going in knowing that you maybe shouldn't be rooting for the "good guys", because you know that they become the "bad guys". But the "other guys" (Separatists) are clearly not "good guys". Get it? And yes, the ship designs are designed to portray this and make it absolutely clear to the audience that there is this interesting swaparoo going on and that maybe we're really not supposed to be rooting for *either* side (which is absolutely correct). It's about design fitting the theme.

The good guys we're cheering are using ship designs that clearly are designed to evoke the Imperial designs we see in the OS. The bad guys  we're supposed to hate are increasingly seen flying around in ships much more reminiscent of the types the Rebel Fleet will utilize in the OS as well. I spotted this same thing watching Clone Wars as well (it's even more apparent there actually given that we see a lot more samples of different ships). Yes, the "bad guys" are clearly bad. But the "bad guys" all get killed. What's left over of the Separatists, not the leadership, but the folks who still don't want some central power running their lives, ultimately do form various parts of what becomes the rebellion later on.

And yeah. The choices of ship design are very clearly made to make this apparent to the audience.

----------


## Peelee

> snipped for length


The speed stuff is fair, that's on me for not checking when I copy/pasted. 14000kph is still way too fast for how fast we see the ships fly across the surface of the death star, but hey, I'll even give you that. Because still, we see that either the computers or the torpedoes simply don't have the range, which you yourself seemingly acknowledge. You also seem to be perfectly happy mixing movies and EU when it suits your purposes but ignoring EU when it doesn't, such as when Starfighters explicitly must be in fairly close range for torpedoes in virtually every book where they shoot torpedoes. Sure, you can say the Death Star target is too small, use whatever justification you like. It doesn't matter. In movies, they have to be fairly close to use torpedoes. In novels and comics they have to be fairly close to use torpedoes. And "fairly close" always means "at severe risk of death", again as explicitly told or shown to us in both movies and non-film canon.

----------


## Mechalich

> The speed stuff is fair, that's on my for not checking when I copy/pasted. 14000kph is still way too fast for how fast we see the ships fly across the surface of the death star, but hey, I'll evne give you that. Because still, we see that either the computers or the torpedoes simply don't have the range, which you yourself seemingly acknowledge. You also seem to be perfectly happy mixing movies and EU when it ****s your purposes but ignoring EU when it doesn't, such as when Starfighters explicitly must be in fairly close range for torpedoes in virtually every book where they shoot torpedoes. Sure, you can say the Death Star target is too small, use whatever justification you like. It doesn't matter. In movies, they have to be fairly close to use torpedoes. In novels and comics they have to be fairly close to use torpedoes. And "fairly close" always means "at severe risk of death", again as explicitly told or shown to us in both movies and non-film canon.


Agreed, and, because this is all WWII naval combat, we would assume they'd need to get close, because Dive Bombers and Torpedo Bombers absolutely did have to get extremely close to target to use their weapons. 2019's _Midway_ is not a particularly good film, but if you watch the combat scenes it becomes extremely clear how everything present translates almost perfectly into Star Wars. For example, compare this scene of the destruction of the carrier Akagi, to the trench run from ANH. It could hardly be more obvious.

----------

