# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  Class features paid in HD - what breaks?

## WrittenInBlood

I have a growing itch with disassociated character resources in 5e. They generally don't represent anything specific in the game world, and feel a lot like buttons in CRPG. Why low-level fighter can't Action Surge twice before short rest? Guess he's too tired after first one. But he's still good enough for one Second Wind. Is AS'ing more tiring than SW'ing? Apparently. So, if this particular fighter didn't used AS yet, should he be able to SW again instead? If no, why? 

I think that class resources should share a common use limit, that increases with level - and we already have it in the game structure, specifically Hit Dice. Making them interchangeable this way give the players actual choice in a resource management game. So let's say that any limited resource use (let's skip specifics, and spellcasting, for now) is now paid with HD. 

As some classes would have more uses of HD than others this way, I'd give an additional universal way to spend them - a reroll (or maybe auto-success) on any ability check. Also, as natural healing now competes with features for HD, I'd increase starting HD number to three.

What results are to be expected? Here's what I'm aiming for.
As mentioned, it's actual choice now, instead of just deciding if circumstances justify the use of key feature.
Depleted HD give more serious feel of character wear&tear during an adventure.
Players can squeeze more from even "15-minute workday", as lack of the strongest option is not as discouraging form pressing further as before.
Down with 6-8 encounters a day regime - combined resources deplete faster, no more attrition-filler-Medium-fights are needed.
Only one kind of rest. Long rest and downtime are now just chained short rests, regenerating everything in full.

What are the downsides? I've asked in Homebrew board, though didn't get a lot of traction. Maybe it's for more advanced ideas. There was important point raised for increased healer dependency, though. What else should I watch for?

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## Oramac

I like the way you think. 

I've already been writing a class that uses hit dice as a resource. It's not quite as extensive as your idea, but it doesn't seem to break anything either. I'll be playtesting it when my group starts the Dragonlance campaign here in a little bit too, so that should hopefully reveal any major flaws. 

In short, I don't think it breaks anything, and I do think it's a good idea.

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## Anymage

Hour long short rests kind of make a hash of this in practice, but in principle letting everybody have a way to heal themselves reduces the need for an external healbot.  Letting those resources be spent on proactively attacking means that you're generally better served using those resources to do something active and then hope that someone else will step up and play the healer.  A dedicated self healing option is something that everybody should have.

The way that you're comparing the ability to take a whole second action to the ability to regain 1d10+level HP also highlights how much of a devil this would be to balance.  It's a problem that spell point systems have run into time and again; some abilities are just going to be more effective than others, lesser abilities are likely to see less use if they compete with stronger abilities (I don't know any fighter who would ever use Second Wind if they could exchange it for another use of Action Surge), and there's the everpresent temptation to blow your whole power budget on your first encounter and then rest for the remaining 23 hours and 50 minutes left in the day.

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## Frogreaver

> I have a growing itch with disassociated character resources in 5e. They generally don't represent anything specific in the game world, and feel a lot like buttons in CRPG. Why low-level fighter can't Action Surge twice before short rest? Guess he's too tired after first one. But he's still good enough for one Second Wind. Is AS'ing more tiring than SW'ing? Apparently. So, if this particular fighter didn't used AS yet, should he be able to SW again instead? If no, why?


A player choosing to use a particular ability like action surge or second wind isn't about simulation - it's about player authorship.  The player gets to author that this moment right now has the fictional circumstances required for that ability - *whatever those may be.  The in-fiction truth would be that those fictional circumstances come about randomly.  The end mechanical result is that the Fighter takes advantage of those specific circumstances.




> I think that class resources should share a common use limit, that increases with level - and we already have it in the game structure, specifically Hit Dice. Making them interchangeable this way give the players actual choice in a resource management game. So let's say that any limited resource use (let's skip specifics, and spellcasting, for now) is now paid with HD.


I think you are on right track that you need a resource to expend for abilities, but to be associated instead of disassociated it needs to also make sense in the fiction.  

IMO.  If one cares so much about disassociated mechanics, it's not really clear how hit dice help.  Fictionally from a simulation perspective what do hit dice represent and fictionally how does one spend one to do a cool maneuver?  I think nothing?




> As some classes would have more uses of HD than others this way, I'd give an additional universal way to spend them - a reroll (or maybe auto-success) on any ability check. Also, as natural healing now competes with features for HD, I'd increase starting HD number to three.


It's good you are thinking about increasing hit dice as part of this process.  I'd ask the following questions.  Shouldn't size of hit dice matter in some way?  Doesn't use rate of hit dice vary quite drastically depending on whether you are a melee or ranged character and is that really something we want from the resource powering all these extra abilities?




> What results are to be expected? Here's what I'm aiming for.
> As mentioned, it's actual choice now, instead of just deciding if circumstances justify the use of key feature.
> Depleted HD give more serious feel of character wear&tear during an adventure.
> Players can squeeze more from even "15-minute workday", as lack of the strongest option is not as discouraging form pressing further as before.
> Down with 6-8 encounters a day regime - combined resources deplete faster, no more attrition-filler-Medium-fights are needed.
> Only one kind of rest. Long rest and downtime are now just chained short rests, regenerating everything in full.


I'd dispute most everything here.  I don't think you've really thought through the full impact of these changes.  As an example, a level 5 Fighter could action surge 5 times on the first turn of an important combat.  Congrats on breaking that encounter!




> What are the downsides? I've asked in Homebrew board, though didn't get a lot of traction. Maybe it's for more advanced ideas. There was important point raised for increased healer dependency, though. What else should I watch for?


For the Fighter player - the downside is that he no longer gets 'free' uses of action surge or 2nd wind, or battlemaster superiority dice.  Overall he ends up with much fewer resources over the course of a standard adventuring day.  From the DM perspective the downside is that he will have more 5 min workdays as characters can blow their resources faster.

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## Pex

What you're asking for is everyone have a resource pool of point to spend on stuff. Monks have ki. Sorcerers have Sorcery Points. You want to give fighters "Stamina Points". Using HD puts a strain on someone needing to be healbot, and you need to change the reset HD rule to get back all HD on a long rest or else you end up with players only ever really having half their HD to do stuff.

Given everyone has a Resource Point Pool, do you want a 10th level fighter to have 10 Actions Surges a day? A 10th level cleric 10 uses of Channel Energy? Now you need to balance by having some class abilities cost more than one Resource Point or more than one HD. Not only is it an inherent rewrite of the game system you need to reconsider balance of abilities for everything. It becomes a mess. By fixing something that wasn't broken you make broken pieces that need more fixing.

Better to leave well enough alone.

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## Mastikator

Class and species features that can be used once per short or long rest can be replaced with proficiency bonus times per long rest without much issue.

I don't think hit dice should be used for features that don't heal.

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## Xihirli

The big downside to introducing a slow-recovering recourse pool for EVERYONE is that some classes already play with a slow-recovering resource pool (spell slots) and this would roughly double their resources. Everyone else is going to run into a class designed around not having a slow-recovering resource pool that suddenly has one built in. Except also, they're kinda not because it's a resource they already had, they can just now spend it in a new way.

That resource being hit dice will also, imo, unfairly favor casters. Their hit dice are smaller, so spending them takes less out of their potential HP reserves down the line assuming a 1:1 thing. The classes with d10 and d12 hit dice are also the ones who are more expected to go in the front and get injured too, so they'll have fewer hit dice to spend overall. I'll also point out that the Fighters you had in your example already get those resources back on a short rest, when they'd be spending their hit dice already. 

I'd focus more on making short rests easier and maybe giving Barbarians some reason to take them other than HP.

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## Rukelnikov

> What you're asking for is everyone have a resource pool of point to spend on stuff. Monks have ki. Sorcerers have Sorcery Points. You want to give fighters "Stamina Points". Using HD puts a strain on someone needing to be healbot, and you need to change the reset HD rule to get back all HD on a long rest or else you end up with players only ever really having half their HD to do stuff.
> 
> Given everyone has a Resource Point Pool, do you want a 10th level fighter to have 10 Actions Surges a day? A 10th level cleric 10 uses of Channel Energy? Now you need to balance by having some class abilities cost more than one Resource Point or more than one HD. Not only is it an inherent rewrite of the game system you need to reconsider balance of abilities for everything. It becomes a mess. By fixing something that wasn't broken you make broken pieces that need more fixing.
> 
> Better to leave well enough alone.


Good answer

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## RSP

I like the idea of HD having additional uses, but I would prefer to just think of what may be viable to tack on as an additional use, rather than try to redo the system. 

Off the top of my head, Id say a BM fighter (or any fighter, maybe?) could use a HD to replace a maneuver die. A Sorcerer might be able to roll a HD on a SR to recover SPs, a Bard use one for Inspiration. 

Those are simpler than doing wholesale changes, and if any one ends up unbalanced, you can just deal with the add on ability, rather than have to adjust the entire rewrite. 

Plus, thematically it could be seen as the strain of pushing the body too far.

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## Pex

> I like the idea of HD having additional uses, but I would prefer to just think of what may be viable to tack on as an additional use, rather than try to redo the system. 
> 
> Off the top of my head, Id say a BM fighter (or any fighter, maybe?) could use a HD to replace a maneuver die. A Sorcerer might be able to roll a HD on a SR to recover SPs, a Bard use one for Inspiration. 
> 
> Those are simpler than doing wholesale changes, and if any one ends up unbalanced, you can just deal with the add on ability, rather than have to adjust the entire rewrite. 
> 
> Plus, thematically it could be seen as the strain of pushing the body too far.


To be spent only when the PC has run out of his normal resource use.

I wouldn't mind spending HD to recover from exhaustion levels on a one for one basis, accepting during a short rest. 2 HD per level if I have to, but no more.

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## EggKookoo

> IMO.  If one cares so much about disassociated mechanics, it's not really clear how hit dice help.  Fictionally from a simulation perspective what do hit dice represent and fictionally how does one spend one to do a cool maneuver?  I think nothing?


Right, these are really two different topics. I have no problem with the "gaminess" of 5e's mechanics (my PC doesn't actually have hit points, that's just a number on my character sheet). But I've long thought PCs should have a resource that can be spent generically, including ability/skill checks.

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## Rukelnikov

> I like the idea of HD having additional uses, but I would prefer to just think of what may be viable to tack on as an additional use, rather than try to redo the system. 
> 
> Off the top of my head, Id say a BM fighter (or any fighter, maybe?) could use a HD to replace a maneuver die. A Sorcerer might be able to roll a HD on a SR to recover SPs, a Bard use one for Inspiration. 
> 
> Those are simpler than doing wholesale changes, and if any one ends up unbalanced, you can just deal with the add on ability, rather than have to adjust the entire rewrite. 
> 
> Plus, thematically it could be seen as the strain of pushing the body too far.





> To be spent only when the PC has run out of his normal resource use.
> 
> I wouldn't mind spending HD to recover from exhaustion levels on a one for one basis, accepting during a short rest. 2 HD per level if I have to, but no more.


Personally I'd rather the HD expending features were common to all creatures, like recovering during a short rest is, and classes lean more towards using their own resources, I'm not saying those can't be good, indeed they can be, but as a general idea system-wise. Something like spending HD during rests to recover exhaustion I think would be ok, since its a resource everyone has, and can spend in similar fashion, this leads to a better narrative representation of the resource, it'd basically be stamina.

I'd completely revamp the resting and exhaustion mechanics, but without going that far, I think giving extra expenditure options during rests will be safer to add than uses to be added in combat or exploration, since those fundamentally change the nature of the resource, something like that I think should be locked behind a feat, like Dwarven Fortitude (which I've taken and didn't regret for a second).




> Right, these are really two different topics. I have no problem with the "gaminess" of 5e's mechanics (my PC doesn't actually have hit points, that's just a number on my character sheet). But I've long thought PCs should have a resource that can be spent generically, including ability/skill checks.


In other systems, for instance WoD, all characters share a common resource, Willpower, that can be used for many things. And then, many/most templates (vampire, mage, werewolf, etc) come with their own resource/s to fuel their own powers, some of which may also take from Willpower.

Tenra Bansho Zero does something "similar", with everyone having basically only 2 resources, and the same resource you spend to empower your action, is the resource you spend to improve your stats or skills. SWd6 does something similar, where you can spend XP to improve a roll instead of improving stats/skills.

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## togapika

> As some classes would have more uses of HD than others this way, I'd give an additional universal way to spend them - a reroll (or maybe auto-success) on any ability check.


So an auto-success on Persuasion/Intimidation? 
No thanks

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## Arkhios

Interesting idea! I'll have to try and find some time on my vacation to look into this more.

As a sidetrack from this, for some reason, at first I thought you meant that beyond a certain level you'd paid in HD (permanently) to gain class features earlier.
Then I realized that this could be a way to realise an E6 for 5e: Beyond 6th level, every time you would gain a level, you pay a hit die to gain new class features or additional uses of class features. And of course implementing the idea you suggested as well.

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## Kane0

> What results are to be expected?
> What are the downsides?


Once you tie non-HP resources to Hit Die, they all become directly comparable and measurable to HP.

One Rage costs one Hit Die? thats a lot of value for 1d12+Con HP
Channel Divinity costs 2 Hit Die? A first level spell slot (Harness Divine Power) is worth 2d8+2Con HP
Bardic Inspiration costs 1 Hit Die? 1d8+Con gets you +1d6 or more to any one attack, check or save.

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## Snails

The idea of an "energy resource pool" for each class has merit.  _I would most definitely not tie it to HD._  HD are a purely defensive feature that cuts the apron strings to the healbot.  IME the most common reason to end the adventuring day is when a frontliner is tapped of HD, and a wise player will bring up how strong the party needs to safely retreat.  Unless the party is both strong and generous with healing magic, the potential to convert defensive HD into an offensive boost will end up being a big bump up to non-frontliners.  Generally speaking, frontliners will still need to hoard the majority of their HD for self-healing.  Yes, sometimes the wizard gets badly roughly up, but it is sufficiently less often that such can be mitigated with just a few spells and potions.

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## Pex

Another problem with giving every class resource pool points is theyll start to seem same, which was a bane of 4E. Unlike 4E theyll be different enough in effect of what happens at least, but the game mechanics to push buttons will homogenize. Its sort of happening now along with D&Done where lots of stuff are PB number of uses per long rest. Its a question of whether the various powers being different is enough of a difference to compensate everyone using the same mechanics to activate.

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## Kane0

Maybe test it with spell points or ki or something else first.

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## Goobahfish

I think this isn't a bad idea, as long as one doesn't go too far with it.

The problem with unified resource systems is that all abilities become directly comparable. This is convenient from a 'simplicity' perspective and specifically it makes multi-classing more appealing as many abilities will use HD but don't need to worry about having insufficient uses of an ability etc etc.

However, what does this mean in practice? Well, just like 3rd level spells, suddenly it becomes... Fireball! Why use Bardic Inspiration when Rage is clearly better. Why use your ability at all because healing is really the important mechanic.




> Another problem with giving every class resource pool points is theyll start to seem same, which was a bane of 4E. Unlike 4E theyll be different enough in effect of what happens at least, but the game mechanics to push buttons will homogenize. Its sort of happening now along with D&Done where lots of stuff are PB number of uses per long rest. Its a question of whether the various powers being different is enough of a difference to compensate everyone using the same mechanics to activate.


So basically this, except... worse. Unlike 4E, where the timing was unified (even though the abilities were different), this would lead to a fair amount of unification of abilities (a bit like finding the most damaging cantrip). Why play a wizard, when warlock has a slightly better damage per HD mechanic etc etc.

I think if like... half the class abilities used a unified resource (i.e., like spell slots for casters) then I think that would be roughly the right balance. That said, HD is probably not the 'silver bullet' here. It is kind of assumed that you will burn HD to prolong adventuring days.

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## KorvinStarmast

> To be spent only when the PC has run out of his normal resource use.
> 
> I wouldn't mind spending HD to recover from exhaustion levels on a one for one basis, accepting during a short rest. 2 HD per level if I have to, but no more.


 I like the direction that you are taking this. 



> Once you tie non-HP resources to Hit Die, they all become directly comparable and measurable to HP.
> 
> One Rage costs one Hit Die? thats a lot of value for 1d12+Con HP
> Channel Divinity costs 2 Hit Die? A first level spell slot (Harness Divine Power) is worth 2d8+2Con HP
> Bardic Inspiration costs 1 Hit Die? 1d8+Con gets you +1d6 or more to any one attack, check or save.


 Nice analysis.  The "leave well enough alone" might be the better course of action. 



> HD are a purely defensive feature that cuts the apron strings to the healbot.


 And IIRC, their ancestor is the healing surges from D&D 4e?  (I became familiar with the idea as we tried to get our arms around _13th Age_.)

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## Pixel_Kitsune

Not my creation, but someone made a fairly solid list of FFXIV's races and classes in 5e rules and the Dark Knight uses HD for several things.

While they have a Sorcery Point like Pool that fuels their powers.  At level 2 the base class can restore those Points with HD.  At level 7 they can burn an HD to roll it and apply it to themselves or an ally w/in 30' as Temporary HP.  At level 20 they can basically use an HD like normal as a free action if they hit 0 HP.

None of the three Subclasses directly use HD, however one is a caster mimic (Like Elements Monk) with spells using their point pool, so technically the HD is fuel for those abilities.

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## WrittenInBlood

Interesting and a lot to think about, thanks. What's courious, the first reaction I got when shared it with my group was: "So you want characters to do even less". I'm still trying to figure out in what sense it was, even more now because as I understand it, it's directly opposite of some points raised here.

I missed one important bit when rewriting this post from Homebrew, rest and HD regain. My default is night-for-short and weekend-for-long rests, and the concept of "rest button" is also a part of what I want to change, in the same spirit. So, rough idea goes like this: to regain HD character has to rest, obviously. How many is regained depends, metaphorically, on how much of a normal life character can find around and provide to self. Ate something? Good, +HD. It was hot and plenty, that's worth +HD and +HD again. Meal shared in a company, and conversation will also add some. Finally sleep, trusty blanket underneath and warmth of campfire. Sums up for about 8HD a night, but requires carrying rations, risking a campfire and so on. It makes HD regeneration first - variable, and second - a direct result of preparations made. 

Nova issues can be dealt with by time keeping and random encounters, what seems to be common advice around here. Homogenization of classes by this doesn't seem as that big problem for me - "we all do it by HD" isn't actually that different from "we all do it by implied-unnamed-yet-countable-tokens". What I need to think through is mentioned comparability of all features and healing capabilities - that may rise an instinctive resistance, but could be feature, not a bug.

Sorry if any of you feel like I did not addressed your input sufficiently. I keep reminding myself that I don't have to convince everyone.  :Small Wink:

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## Kane0

Also noting there is the old Mystic UA that can be pilfered for ideas, they had a conversion mechanic between power points and HP.

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## Theodoxus

> What you're asking for is everyone have a resource pool of point to spend on stuff. Monks have ki. Sorcerers have Sorcery Points. You want to give fighters "Stamina Points". Using HD puts a strain on someone needing to be healbot, and you need to change the reset HD rule to get back all HD on a long rest or else you end up with players only ever really having half their HD to do stuff.
> 
> Given everyone has a Resource Point Pool, do you want a 10th level fighter to have 10 Actions Surges a day? A 10th level cleric 10 uses of Channel Energy? Now you need to balance by having some class abilities cost more than one Resource Point or more than one HD. Not only is it an inherent rewrite of the game system you need to reconsider balance of abilities for everything. It becomes a mess. By fixing something that wasn't broken you make broken pieces that need more fixing.
> 
> Better to leave well enough alone.


Funnily enough, keeping the 1/2 level restoration of HD per long rest addresses your "10 Action Surges a day" problem. You can even add limits. "1 AS per short rest per normal, and can burn 1 HD to restore your AS once per short rest." Granted, if you get 10 short rests per long rest, it doesn't address your issue, but who does that?

A few other options; you need 10 Stamina Points to restore a class feature. Roll your HD+Con mod. Once you get 10, you can restore your feature. Might take 1 HD, might take 2 or 3 depending on your rolls.
Or, it costs a greater number of HD to restore your feature. First one is 'free', second costs 1 HD, third costs 2 HD, etc.
Or, use the D&DOne exhaustion rules. Every additional use of a class feature raises your Exhaustion by 1. You can reduce those by expending HD (1:1, rolled or even roll over a number (5 "HP" per Exhaustion isn't horrible).

I think WotC went overboard with PB, while completely ignoring HD as an additional resource. In conjunction, they can make a really nifty system of resource management. Could even put them on par with mages; feats of martial prowess that mimic spells (think Tome of Battle, but not so hard coded), using HD like wizards use slots... There's a huge design space there that will bring casters and martials closer to alignment, like so many people want.

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## Pex

> Funnily enough, keeping the 1/2 level restoration of HD per long rest addresses your "10 Action Surges a day" problem. You can even add limits. "1 AS per short rest per normal, and can burn 1 HD to restore your AS once per short rest." Granted, if you get 10 short rests per long rest, it doesn't address your issue, but who does that?
> 
> A few other options; you need 10 Stamina Points to restore a class feature. Roll your HD+Con mod. Once you get 10, you can restore your feature. Might take 1 HD, might take 2 or 3 depending on your rolls.
> Or, it costs a greater number of HD to restore your feature. First one is 'free', second costs 1 HD, third costs 2 HD, etc.
> Or, use the D&DOne exhaustion rules. Every additional use of a class feature raises your Exhaustion by 1. You can reduce those by expending HD (1:1, rolled or even roll over a number (5 "HP" per Exhaustion isn't horrible).
> 
> I think WotC went overboard with PB, while completely ignoring HD as an additional resource. In conjunction, they can make a really nifty system of resource management. Could even put them on par with mages; feats of martial prowess that mimic spells (think Tome of Battle, but not so hard coded), using HD like wizards use slots... There's a huge design space there that will bring casters and martials closer to alignment, like so many people want.


A cure worse than the disease since now a 10th level fighter only ever has 5 HD worth of stuff for everything he can do - action surge, second wind, indomitable, self-healing. Hes no longer a short rest resource class. Everything is on long rest. Using it for one thing is denial for another. Hes starved and worse off than the rules are now. The fighter was fixed and now hes broken.

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## Theodoxus

I'm certainly not saying to exchange SR recovery with HD recovery. I'm saying once you burn your SR 'charge', you can start using HD. Then you reset the ability once again when you short rest.

It's allowing the character to push the limits of what they'd normally be able to do by burning HD, a resource that is otherwise just sitting there.

Not sure where/how you thought it was a complete swap of recovery mechanics...

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## Mastikator

If you gotta house rule your own house rule then it's not really a good house rule.

Rules, especially house rules need to be simple so that players remember them, complicated rules carry a cognitive load. There's only so much a human can keep in mind at any given time.

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## Anymage

> It's allowing the character to push the limits of what they'd normally be able to do by burning HD, *a resource that is otherwise just sitting there*.


If a potential healing resource is "just sitting there", it's worth asking why.  That's likely an issue on its own.

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## Theodoxus

> If you gotta house rule your own house rule then it's not really a good house rule.
> 
> Rules, especially house rules need to be simple so that players remember them, complicated rules carry a cognitive load. There's only so much a human can keep in mind at any given time.


This wasn't my house rule. I'm not the OP. I just happen to think that HD can be used for more than just emergency healing.




> If a potential healing resource is "just sitting there", it's worth asking why.  That's likely an issue on its own.


As a player, using HD for healing is a last ditch measure than means things have gone terribly wrong. It tends to devolve into a case of 'do I use HD now, or save them for something truly dire' and then they never get used. Like other consumables, it's better to have them in the back pocket... but you never know if it's ever the right time, or if you're going to be kicking yourself later down the road because you used them too soon.

As a DM, HD as revised in 5E is a horrible mechanic. Hard to use and they don't recharge as fast as any other player resource... It might be why in every game I've played and run, there's been one or more characters with the ability to heal. Run out of healing; spells, kits, and potions, and it's time to bail. At that point, HD are a last buffer on the way back to town to not die. And again, something has gone terrible wrong to get to that point. YMMV.

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## Mastikator

In my experience hit dice are the first resource to be spent on healing. Healing from spells and potions are usually only used if time is critical.
Short rests are often taken every adventuring day, it's needed for many classes so they can keep up after all. When I DM I encourage players to take a short rest when their characters know they can.
I also let them recover fully on a long rest so it's not a big problem.

I don't expect every table to be the same though, I can see how some tables end up not using them, and may need house rules for additional uses. I prefer to add magic items that can use hit dice.

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## False God

I would think the biggest issue would be proper pricing of class abilities.  How many HD does Action Surge cost?  How many HD does a Battlemaster Maneuver cost?  How much is Wild Shape worth?

Some of these abilities will naturally be far more powerful if they are usable more often, and 5E does not have any real inter-class balance of abilities, they show up at different levels, you get some static things in some classes, some encounter things in other classes, some daily things in some other classes, and as many people have written about for years, the classes aren't balanced.  

So, how do you price-balance their abilities?

----
Now, I do use as a fatigue mechanic in my game.  At its basic, I've done the following:
You get bonus "fatigue dice" equal to your con mod.  This is to give early-level players a little bit more action, since the actions you can take are fairly generic:
You can spend 1 fatigue dice per activity:
You can react to an attack that would hit by rolling a fatigue die to increase your AC until the attack resolves.
You can add more effort to an attack either on the to-hit or the to-damage roll by rolling a fatigue die to either increase your attack roll or increase your damage.
You can spend a fatigue die to increase your save against a spell.
Or to increase the save of a spell when you cast it.
And since I use spell points instead of slots, you can also use a fatigue die to recover spell points just like health.

It's all generic and every class has their own HD and every character has a different Con mod so I find it works out fairly well.  The limit of 1 die per activity keeps numbers from going crazy and the bonus fatigue dice let people do a little more.

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## JNAProductions

> Or to increase the save of a spell when you cast it.


The first instance of the DC, or the DC for the entire spell?

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## False God

> The first instance of the DC, or the DC for the entire spell?


Only the individual casting of that spell.  

Each use of a fatigue die is unique to that activity.

So if say, you cast Fireball and the save is DC 13, you can spend one fatigue die to add whatever the result of 1d10 is to that single save for this single casting of the spell.

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## JNAProductions

> Only the individual casting of that spell.  
> 
> Each use of a fatigue die is unique to that activity.
> 
> So if say, you cast Fireball and the save is DC 13, you can spend one fatigue die to add whatever the result of 1d10 is to that single save for this single casting of the spell.


Okay, say you use _Hold Person/Monster_. Your DC is 14, and you roll a 10.

Is the DC going to be 24 for the FIRST save your target makes? Or EVERY save they make, for this specific spell?

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## False God

> Okay, say you use _Hold Person/Monster_. Your DC is 14, and you roll a 10.
> 
> Is the DC going to be 24 for the FIRST save your target makes? Or EVERY save they make, for this specific spell?


Sorry, I misunderstood the question.  Its just the first one.  

I do allow players to use their reaction to respond to a creature attempting to break the spell by spending another fatigue die to "concentrate harder" and raise the DC again.

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## JNAProductions

> Sorry, I misunderstood the question.  Its just the first one.  
> 
> I do allow players to use their reaction to respond to a creature attempting to break the spell by spending another fatigue die to "concentrate harder" and raise the DC again.


Gotcha, good.

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## Pex

> I'm certainly not saying to exchange SR recovery with HD recovery. I'm saying once you burn your SR 'charge', you can start using HD. Then you reset the ability once again when you short rest.
> 
> It's allowing the character to push the limits of what they'd normally be able to do by burning HD, a resource that is otherwise just sitting there.
> 
> Not sure where/how you thought it was a complete swap of recovery mechanics...


Because that was where we were at the time I responded you quoted. The idea of using HD after using up your regular uses came later, and it still doesnt work because of the pressure put upon need of a healbot but at least you arent losing your regular stuff. There is still a problem of particular abilities allegedly being worth more than one HD as a fair price.

This is an idea that looks good on paper but doesnt work in practice. There is a logical sense to it but causes issues when put to use requiring more rules to fix it. A house rule that causes more house rules is not a good house rule. To keep it means rewriting the entire game system. One could do that, but thats a far fetched thing to do to fix one instance of a wrongness you feels needs to be righted. Its already an arduous dealing with D&Done.

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## sambojin

Moon Druids would love this. You start with 2 wildshape charges, and with your 3HD starting suggestion, that'd be 6 CR1 uses at lvl2. So same as normal. Then it just gets better and better.

Up to 10 CR2 wildshape charges at lvl6. And then, by lvl12, you've got 14 (essentially unlimited) CR4 or 7 elemental charges.

I mean, just having 14 action surges at lvl12 as a fighter is insane. But since Druids can heal pretty well through spells, and this scaling SO well for a multi-hour ability, you kinda get your lvl20 capstone by lvl10-12. Or more spell slots. Or a bit of each.

I like the basic concept, but it scales a bit too well for some classes (that scaled well due to full casting anyway). Where it makes martials good, it makes full casters great.

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## Azuresun

> Down with 6-8 encounters a day regime - combined resources deplete faster, no more attrition-filler-Medium-fights are needed.


The DMG does not mandate 6-8 encounters, it gives that as one example of how an adventuring day might go IF the encounters are in a certain band. You can read it for yourself and see.

/petpeeve

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## Osuniev

I have been playin around with using Hit Dice to fuel cool actions and activities (additional Rages for Barbarians, bonus to the d20 roll, etc).

I think a very important issue is : once everything comes from the best ressource, Optimizaton and Fun might pull in opposite directions.

A fighter RAW feels good using their Second Wind because it would have been wasted otherwise.
A fighter feels less good using their Second Wind when they just sacrificed an Action Surge.

Even if you manage to achieve perfect balance in terms of cost, the disparity might still exist in the PLAYER's mind.

Suddenly a Ressource that could be used to Do Everything is only used to do One Thing : the one perceived to be optimal.

I you let them, players might optimize the fun out of their game :)

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## EggKookoo

> The DMG does not mandate 6-8 encounters, it gives that as one example of how an adventuring day might go IF the encounters are in a certain band. You can read it for yourself and see.
> 
> /petpeeve


Specifically, it says 6-8 is what a typical party can handle, implying that that's the high end. It's more or less a cap, not a goal.

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## animorte

> I you let them, players might optimize the fun out of their game :)


Ive watched this several times (and learned the hard way myself a long time ago).




> Specifically, it says 6-8 is what a typical party can handle, implying that that's the high end. It's more or less a cap, not a goal.


This is how I see it as well. I dont often have that many encounters in a single adventuring day, but when they happen, you can bet the party is using every resource management trick up their sleeve. This should not be a common standard as some people make it out to be.

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## PhoenixPhyre

> The DMG does not mandate 6-8 encounters, it gives that as one example of how an adventuring day might go IF the encounters are in a certain band. You can read it for yourself and see.
> 
> /petpeeve


Amen! This is one of those things that peeves me to no end. Taking a post hoc example and turning it into a hard prescription without any nuance.

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## Pex

> Amen! This is one of those things that peeves me to no end. Taking a post hoc example and turning it into a hard prescription without any nuance.


My experience has been two fights short rest two fights long rest, give or take and players are conserving resources. Players have to use their stuff eventually. They have to have been using their stuff by the third fight and must do so if there is a fourth. Not because the fourth fight is always the hardest but because conserving still means using some stuff and each fight uses up some. By the time the short rest classes want their second short rest the long rest characters want their long rest so might as well. It wasn't a 15 min adventuring day. Lots of adventuring and playing happened, but now a long rest is needed. Getting two short rests and then a long rest later is rare. This is across many campaigns and different DMs.

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## Azuresun

> Amen! This is one of those things that peeves me to no end. Taking a post hoc example and turning it into a hard prescription without any nuance.


I think it comes from people simply not reading the DMG for themselves, and hearing someone else repeating it second- or third-hand.

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## Snails

> My experience has been two fights short rest two fights long rest, give or take and players are conserving resources. Players have to use their stuff eventually.


My experience is similar.  As a practical matter, if I am playing a spellcaster either I have to burn a highish level spell early to defeat the enemies quickly or I greatly increase the risk the frontliners needing to burn through many HD after the battle.  Repeat this four times and there is a high likelihood that one or more PCs will strongly suggest stopping the adventure day.  

Thus hoarding spells does not typically extend the adventuring day unless the entire party effectively manages their resources as a whole.  It is not that I have never seen that happen, but this is a _game_ played for fun, after all, and we do not have a habit of looking over each others' shoulders.  Nor is the DM inclined to punish a failure to do so.

Obviously, there are exceptions, like when the party frontliners vaporize a significant portion of the opposition in the Surprise Round, and few resources are spent.  But that is not something anyone expects to happen often.

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