# Forum > Gaming > Gaming (Other) >  Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spikes

## Mystic Muse

Welcome to the 25th annual MTG thread! Here we talk about the mechanics of the card game, deck building, playing, etc. If you want to talk about MTG color philosophy you can do so here.

*On Card Spoilers:* Currently as far as I understand most posters here don't mind having the next set of cards spoiled. So we can post them. However if someone request cards to be spoiled we will probably oblige them.

If you want, you can post decks and have them placed here in a list similar to the one below! Shoot me a PM if you're interested and I don't have my Ivory Mask.

Note: This is horribly out of date These are from time immemorial.
The Deck Gallery:
*Spoiler*
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*Mirrinus' "Norg'**Spoiler*
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Creatures:
4 Cloud Sprite
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Pestermite
3 Thieving Sprite
3 Latchkey Faerie
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi

Instants:
4 Mana Leak
4 Agony Warp
3 Rend Flesh
2 Condescend

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse
7 Swamp
12 Island

Sideboard:
2 Mistblade Shinobi
3 Echoing Truth
3 Negate
3 Remove Soul
4 Peppersmoke

The basic strategy is to play evasive creatures with nice CIP abilities, then bounce them with ninja to replay them again, gaining tons of card advantage. Save the instant counters for things you can't handle, like high cost spells that Spellstutter Sprite can't hit, or board-wiping spells. The deck has lots of disruption and can usually play pretty aggressively. Nearly every spell can potentially 2-for-1 the opponent, giving me control of the game thanks to my strong card advantage. It's a very cheap deck to build due to being made entirely of commons, yet I find that it's still a solid deck to play in other casual formats as well. Its biggest weaknesses appear to be board-sweeping spells and pingers, so my sideboard is built to accomidate either of those threats. Peppersmoke handles most pingers and can decimate casual aggro decks. Remove Soul is also good against aggro, while Negate is for control decks that have been popular lately. Echoing Truth is to stop pauper storm decks based on Empty the Warrens, and the Mistblade Shinobi is for keeping midrange creature decks off balance.



*Mirrinus' Pauper Mono White Control**Spoiler*
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Deck: Sarutabaruta (or just call it Pauper Mono-W Control)
Format: MTGO Pauper Classic

*Creatures*
4 Order of Leitbur
3 Shade of Trokair
4 Noble Templar

*Instants*
4 Judge Unworthy
3 Dawn Charm
3 Holy Light
4 Fire at Will
4 Unmake

*Sorceries*
1 Cenn's Enlistment

*Enchantments*
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Faith's Fetters

*Lands*
20 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe

*Sideboard*
4 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Circle of Protection: Black
4 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Holy Light
1 Cenn's Enlistment
4 Relic of Progenitus

(Note: the circles of protection were common when printed in 7th edition, so they're legal for pauper.)

Anyway, I realized that most decks for pauper are creature-heavy, due to the lack of mass removal. So I built a deck designed to crush aggro strategies. I run a wealth of removal spells, some of which can earn card advantage. My creatures are few, but are versatile and are great both early and late game, oftentimes utilizing my excess mana to the fullest. The Kami of Ancient Law in the sideboard is mostly to switch in against creature-light decks as an early beater, or to replace Holy Light against white decks. I figure that if a deck is playing white, it's likely to be playing white enchantment-based removal like Oblivion Ring or Temporal Isolation, so the Kami would be great at keeping my other creatures clear of these answers.

What I'm still considering, though, is the removal suite. I like Fire at Will for its potential for card advantage, particularly against weenie swarms like Slivers. Unmake is also great simply for the lack of the attack/blocker clause. The Dawn Charms are there mostly for versatility, as I can usually think of a good use for it. I'm not sure if I should be maindecking the Holy Lights, though. So far, they've only been useful against pinger decks, Empty the Warrens, and certain elf builds. However, given that Storm may be one of the best pauper builds, Holy Light affords me with my best chance of trumping Empty the Warrens. But most of all, I'm debating Judge Unworthy. On one hand, having 8 removal spells that require attacking/blocking is kind of restrictive; on the other hand, it's my cheapest removal spell, and my only removal option for turn 2. The Scry is oftentimes a toss-up; getting rid of excess land is great, but I've had instances where I needed to draw another land, but can't put a land on top of my deck with Scry if I want to kill a creature. I guess Temporal Isolation is a possible substitute, but it's pretty lousy in the Silvers matchup, which is perhaps the most common deck played in the pauper casual room as of late.

I'm still debating whether Relic of Progenitus should be in the sideboard; perhaps I could use more aggro options to switch in against creature-light decks, even though those tend to be fewer in number for this format.


*Mirrinus' Countersliver**Spoiler*
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Deck: Pauper UW Countersliver
Format: Extended Pauper

Creatures:
4 Azorius First-wing
4 Bant Sureblade
4 Deft Duelist
4 Ethercaste Knight
4 Esper Stormblade

Artifacts:
4 Fieldmist Borderpost

Enchantments:
4 Temporal Isolation

Instants:
4 Mana Tithe
4 Mana Leak
3 Remove Soul
3 Hindering Light

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse
7 Island
7 Plains

Countersliver is a classic and effective Magic deck archetype that seeks to win by playing a few cheap, efficient threats to take the early game lead, then using permission and light removal elements to prevent the late-game from coming as you press your advantage. The archetype is named after the original version, which played Crystalline Sliver as its flagship creature.

Countersliver is a good example of an effective aggro-control deck. Your creatures are weaker than your opponent's best aggro creatures, and your removal and card advantage suite isn't nearly as strong as a dedicated control player's. What you do have, though, is tempo. You have superior early-game creatures to all but the best aggro decks, and you'll be shaving pieces off your opponent's life very quickly while trying to maintain your board advantage. Countersliver especially likes to prey on slower decks. Compare a Countersliver deck to a normal permission control deck. Against a mid-range deck, both are able to stall for several turns with their counterspells. However, while the permission deck is just buying time to play a big finisher, Countersliver will have a guy in play by turn 2, and attacking the opponent relentlessly while stalling for time. In other words, it has a tangible clock in play, which will likely win before the late-game hits.

Countersliver is normally weak against fast aggro decks with superior creatures. However, my personal build contains a few elements that help that matchup. First is the high number of first-striking creatures. Bant Sureblade and Deft Duelist make formidable blockers, easily dispatching lots of popular aggro creatures with high power but low toughness. Deft Duelist is also impossible to burn out of the way, making it a particularly impressive defender. Of course, both are also rather nasty on offense as well. Another nice card in the aggro matchup is Ethercaste Knight. 3 toughness means it can handle many early-game opposing creatures with ease, and it can lend power to my offense without ever having to tap. My favorite starting plays with this deck involve Esper Stormblade on turn 2, followed by Ethercaste Knight on turn 3 with one land up for Mana Tithe. I get to swing for 4 points of flying starting on turn 3, which can lead to a turn 7 win. With Ethercaste Knight blocking on the ground and a slew of countermagic and removal, I'm likely to win a damage race with just those two creatures.

The key to playing this deck is to not overextend with your creatures, and to keep mana open for counters available as often as possible, even if you aren't actually holding a counter. Exalted lets you finish games quickly without having to play many additional creatures. I prefer my fliers for attacking while keeping the first strikers back for defense to win the damage race against aggro. Of course, if you have a clear creature advantage, by all means attack en masse! Just be sure to have countermagic on hand in case they drop a big creature or removal spell. The good thing about this deck is that practically every single spell costs just 2 mana or less (I don't count the borderposts, as I usually pay their alternate cost), which means by turn 4 you can feasibly drop another threat and still have Mana Leak or Remove Soul ready. The deck desperately wants to hit UW by turn 2 (an opening hand that can't do this should be mulliganed), but with 4 Terramorphic Expanses and 4 Borderposts, that shouldn't be too hard to do, at least in my testing thus far.

If you want a sideboard, I would recommend trying out Steel of the Godhead. Against decks light on removal but heavy on aggro, this card is a total beating that almost ensures victory in the damage race. Just keep in mind that you can't enchant your Azorius First-wings or Deft Duelists. In such a matchups where I'd want Steel of the Godhead, such as against aggressive red decks, I'd probably swap out the griffins for Vedalken Outlander. 


*Shas'aia Toriia's Orzhov Control**Spoiler*
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*Creatures (13)*
4x Divinity of Pride
4x Graveborn Muse
2x Shimian Specter
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian

*Artifacts (1)*
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

*Instants (4)*
4x Mortify

*Planeswalkers (2)*
2x Liliana Vess

*Sorceries (16)*
4x Demonic Tutor
4x Vindicate (substituting in a couple Oblivion Rings until I can afford a playset)
4x Gerrard's Verdict
2x Wrath of God
2x Damnation

*Land (24)*
4x Godless Shrine
4x Fetid Heath
4x Caves of Koilos
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Eiganjo Castle
2x Orzhova, Church of Deals
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Forbidding Watchtower
2x Swamp
1x Plains

To start off with this deck, you want to either strip their hand away with Gerrard's Veridct or search for something good with Demonic Tutor. Once you have Graveborn muse in play, just start accumalating card advantage. If they try to attack, prevent the damage with Oriss, or block with Forbidding Watchtower. Finish off the game with Liliana Vess or Divinity of Pride. Above all, though, don't be afraid to Wrath often. With 4 wrath effects and 6 tutors, you can always get more.

Lastly, there is a soft lock in this deck. See if you can find what it is.  :Small Amused: 



*MountainKing's UBR Elemental Shenanigans:**Spoiler*
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Creatures:
Supreme Exemplar x2
Mulldrifter x3
Mournwhelk x3
Shriekmaw x3
Spitebellows x3
Inner-Flame Acolyte x3
Stingscourger x3

Artifacts:
Proteus Staff x3
Cauldron of Souls x3
Cloudstone Curio x3
Armillary Sphere x3

Sorceries:
Heat Shimmer x2

Instants:
Peel from Reality x2
Turn to Mist x4

Lands:
Basic Swamp x6
Basic Mountain x7
Basic Island x7

Sideboard (aka the Experiment Pile):
Thrumming Stone
Coalition Relic
Cruel Ultimatum x3
River Kelpie x2
Heat Shimmer
Mana Echoes x2
Dawn of the Dead
Tar Fiend x2
Footbottom Feast x3

The basic premise of the deck is to use the triggered come into play or leaves play effects on creatures, repeatedly, in order to bring about an effective soft lock on the game through denial. This is achieved through taking two keywords abilities (Evoke and Persist)... and breaking them soundly over your knee.

The core of the deck is the interaction between Cauldron of Souls (the only card in the deck that gives creatures Persist) and Elemental creatures with Evoke alternative casting costs. In response to the Evoke's triggered effect, you tap Cauldron of Souls to give the Evoked creature Persist. It leaves play, then returns to play, causing its triggered come into play ability to go on the stack a second time, for no additional mana cost.

Example: If I evoke a Mulldrifter for 2U, when it comes into play, I draw two cards. Since I paid the Evoke cost, the triggered effect goes on the stack. I give it Persist via Cauldron of Souls, and when it comes into play a second time, I draw two more cards.

Example 2: The interaction between Spitebellows and Cauldron of Souls is fundamentally the same, except that the creature's ability triggers when it _leaves_ play, rather than comes into play. However, when Persist brings Spitebellows back into play, it has a zero toughness courtesy of its -1/-1 counter from Persist, sending it cheerfully back to the graveyard a second time, allowing for either 12 damage to be done to one creature, or 6 damage to be done to two separate creatures.

The typical play of the deck leaves it feeling like its ramping a little slowly. Turns 1-5, you'll probably only have played an Armillary Sphere, Cloudstone Curio, Cauldron of Souls, and land. ***NOTE*** This deck likes its mana, and digging up lands with the Armillary Sphere is crucial.

Once turn 6 hits, however, you'll be causing some serious hurt, having surprisingly rapid, effective tools at your disposal during your turn. Mournwhelk empties your opponent's hand, Shriekmaw and Spitebellows tear down your opponent's creatures, while Stingscourger stalls out their creatures. Supreme Exemplar is the only huge beater in the deck, though clearing the opposing board, casting a Spitebellows (not Evoking), and then giving it +2/+0 and Haste via Inner-Flame Acolyte (if not +4/+0) can give you a suitable beater as well. Otherwise, your damage comes from lightweight, evasive creatures like Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter.

This deck isn't especially meant to play against terribly competitive players, but it *can* perform against moderately fast decks. The difference is that it moves slightly slower, and loses out on creatures, because instead of holding on to your Evoke creatures, you'll be playing them in to deal with threats on board. I've got a list of cards that I personally intend to use to tinker with the deck even further, but I'll leave the deck *as is* for the purpose of posting it. I want people to be able to tinker with it, and the deck *does* work well in its current form.

The deck also has a number of specific weaknesses, none of which should be _terribly_ worried about. It's meant to be a fun deck... for you. It won't be fun for them.  :Small Big Grin: 


*Maho-Tsukai's The Black Plague, a deck for multiplayer**Spoiler*
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Deck:
Lands:
3x Cabal Coffers
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
20x Swamp

Creatures:
2x Pestilence Demon
4x Stuffy Doll
4x Cemetary Gate
4x Reassembling Skeleton

Enchantments:
4x Pestilence
4x Circle of Affliction

Sorceries/Instants:
2x Consume Spirit
4x Diabolic Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
2x Bubbling Muck
4x Dark Ritual
1x Culling the Weak

Description:
This is one deck that will make you absolutely hated in multiplayer. It's a mono-black deck that focuses on using the combination of Pestilence + Circle of Affliction (set to Black) to lock down the game by wiping the board every turn and kill your opponent(s) all at the same time.

This deck acts very similar to the old school W/B decks that pared Pestilence with Circle of Protection: Black and Pro Black creatures like White Knight. However, due to the printing of cards like Reassembling Skeleton, Stuffy Doll and Circle of Affliction white this deck no longer needs white to run properly. Mono Black now has enough cards to emulate the white cards that this kind of deck used to rely on and by using only black you have more mana to pour into your main win condition, pestilence

As for how the deck should be played, it's really a combination of combo and control, leaning heavily towards combo. As stated before, pestilence is your main wincon, as it can burn all players for damage continually. However, to prevent your own death, circle of affliction(set to black) is used in tandem with pestilence, the one life gained offsetting the burn from pestilence, while burning your opponent more in the process. As a result you goal should be to assemble this combo as soon as possible, using your defensively-minded creatures and removal from pestilence itself and twin consume spirits to stall out while you use your various tutors to assemble all the cards you need.

The real beauty of this deck, though, is that pestilence also hits all creatures, meaning that each time you burn your opponent your also wiping his board clean of threats, essentially locking down any deck that tries to win with creatures. However, pestilence dies when you have no creatures, so you have to play creatures that can survive the enchantment. Cemetery Gate has protection from black. Reassembling Skeleton can revive himself after pestilence wipes him off the board. Stuffy Doll is indestructible....and as mentioned before all of them are strong defensive walls that can stall for time if you don't have a pestilence in play.

As for the rest of the cards, most of them are devoted to gaining tons of black mana that can be poured into pestilence. One thing this deck tries to do is maximizing Pestilence by providing lots of ways to gain extra mana to pour into it. Dark Ritual is an old standby that's great for this kind of deck while bubbling muck essentially doubles your mana for a turn. This deck features the infamous all-star of black mana gain, Cabal Coffers which can make ridiculous amounts of mana, and Urborg makes this even more ridiculous. Culling the Weak is like a stronger dark ritual with a drawback....that happens to play well with Reassembling Skeleton.

Consume Spirit provides a "finisher" as well as a way to pad your life from the times you may have had to use pestilence to wipe the board without a circle of affliction to prevent it's self-burn. It can also double as removal in a pinch, too. Also, if you find that you just need something really big and scary to beat face with, Pestilence demon comes ready to serve you, and can double as pestilence #5-6 too.

The main thing you should remember in this deck is that while the combo is nice, you should not be a slave to it. If you have a pestilence in play but no circle you should not be afraid to wipe the board and eat some damage yourself. Losing a bit of life to end the thread of a creature hoard coming your way is a worthwhile trade, and one that could save your life in the long run.



Please include _lots_ of info on how to play the deck so that others can partake in the fun that is whatever deck you have destroyed the Multiverse with or help suggest other cards to increase the awesomeness contained in your 60 (or more) cards.
This list has been maintained by Squark, tgva, Johnny Blade, Shas, and Duos in the past.
Also, *if anyone wants to drop/update any of these decks, let me know.*

Prior MTG Threads (WIP):
*Spoiler*
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Magic: the Gathering
Magic: the Gathering II - Planeswalkers in the Playground -
Magic: the Gathering III - These Planes Are Made For Walkin'
Magic: the Gathering IV: "Burn, Mana, Burn" as they used to say
Magic: the Gathering V: Ophidians on a Plane
Magic: the Gathering VI: This Thread Dies to Removal
Magic: The Gathering VII: Thopter? I Barely Knew'er!
Magic: The Gathering VIII: We Should have a Mythic By Now
Magic: The Gathering IX: Gone Through Lotus of Threads Already!
Magic: the Gathering X: Deal X damage to target thread.
Magic: the Gathering XI: When this thread has 50 or more pages, transform it.
Magic-the-Gathering-XII-Vote-Nicol-Bolas-for-2012!-Discard-their-hands!
Magic-The-Gathering-XIII-What-A-Horrible-Night-To-Have-An-Enchantment-Curse/page28
Magic-The-Gathering-Thread-XIV-Instant-Annoying-Just-Add-Hexproof
Magic-The-Gathering-XV-We-Can-t-Stop-Here-This-is-Thragtusk-County
Magic-The-Gathering-XVI-This-Thread-Banned-in-Modern
Magic: The Gathering XVIII: Sacrifice a paycheck: Gain ownership of target _____
Magic the Gathering XVIII the II: They're Therosian Numerals Now
Magic-the-Gathering-XIX-Heroic-Bump-this-thread"]Magic the Gathering XIX: Heroic- Bump this thread.
Magic-the-Gathering-XX-KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANS!!!
Magic-the-Gathering-XXI-Tap-Target-Keg"]Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg
Magic-the-Gathering-XXII-Where-Puns-Go-to-Die"]Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ng-Live-Modern



previous thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...Many-Chandras!

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## LaZodiac

All the C2021 decks have been revealed, and one of the legendaries in the Silverquill one is the lesbian vampire from Rootha's story, so that's cool.

I do feel a little "eh" about not really getting any cards that showcase one of the "Impossibles" mentioned in the Quandrix part of the planeswalker guide... but then how would that even be shown, I guess.

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## Dienekes

Question for you lot. Do you guys know any janky nonsense artifact focused strategies/combos/decks?

Because of quarantine boredom a friend of mine wished to essentially test out nonsense decks against each other for fun with different themes. First theme we chose was artifact, so were both trying to see what fun we can make with them. 

Doesnt have to be particularly viable a strategy. The goal is essentially to get each other to laugh.

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## Personification

> Question for you lot. Do you guys know any janky nonsense artifact focused strategies/combos/decks?
> 
> Because of quarantine boredom a friend of mine wished to essentially test out nonsense decks against each other for fun with different themes. First theme we chose was artifact, so were both trying to see what fun we can make with them. 
> 
> Doesnt have to be particularly viable a strategy. The goal is essentially to get each other to laugh.


If you want it competitive and on Arena, while I haven't seen it in forever there is a Paradox Combo Aetherflux Reservoir Storm deck, or there was, and I just lost to an energy deck that used the card that pays 6 energy to look at the top whatever cards and give you a free cast.

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## Personification

Has anyone else played any Strixhaven?
I played a bunch of limited on Arena, weirdly ending up in Black every time. Killian is honestly bonkers if you can keep him alive, and works especially well with learn, because you can turn all of the overpriced kill spells/buffs into underpriced kill spells and buffs.

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## Avaris

> Has anyone else played any Strixhaven?
> I played a bunch of limited on Arena, weirdly ending up in Black every time. Killian is honestly bonkers if you can keep him alive, and works especially well with learn, because you can turn all of the overpriced kill spells/buffs into underpriced kill spells and buffs.


Im giving it a go on Arena, onto my second sealed pool atm. Finding building a deck really difficult! Feels difficult to have enough creatures without going three colour...

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## LaZodiac

> Has anyone else played any Strixhaven?
> I played a bunch of limited on Arena, weirdly ending up in Black every time. Killian is honestly bonkers if you can keep him alive, and works especially well with learn, because you can turn all of the overpriced kill spells/buffs into underpriced kill spells and buffs.


I have! My first draft was Quandrix, but all focused around Strixhaven Stadium. You would be surprised at how very very good this is.

Then a KillianxDina deck focused on life gain that was also really strong. Dina and Killian were both prime players in that one.

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## Emmerlaus

> I have! My first draft was Quandrix, but all focused around Strixhaven Stadium. You would be surprised at how very very good this is.
> 
> Then a KillianxDina deck focused on life gain that was also really strong. Dina and Killian were both prime players in that one.


Ah right, I think Magic Arena have an IOS option now for the Mac users? Now that I should have more time for myself, I might check that out!

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## RayGallade

How does Strixhaven compare to Kaldheim in terms of limited complexity? Normally, I love drafts, but Kaldheim felt too complex for me. I had a really hard time figuring out what the smart picks were on a consistent basis.

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## enderlord99

I just had a game where I won at 1 life, *and* did so with overwhelming excess.  I'm not sure how exactly I accomplished both at once, but I did.

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## Androgeus

> I just had a game where I won at 1 life, *and* did so with overwhelming excess.  I'm not sure how exactly I accomplished both at once, but I did.


Because the only life point that matters is the last one.

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## Eurus

> Because the only life point that matters is the last one.


You're not wrong, but it's worryingly easy to lose that last one once its nineteen friends are gone.  :Small Big Grin:

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## Haruspex_Pariah

Got my first Premiere Draft in, using the token I got from the previous pass. I was going to wait until I understood the set well enough to pick cards intelligently, but couldn't resist jumping in. Ended up with a Witherbloom deck, though I also snagged some rares that were outside that scheme.

Strixhaven Limited feels a little weird though, due to the Mystical Archive. First time drafting a set where some of the best cards aren't actually Standard legal.

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## Personification

So, I saw _Raya and the Last Dragon_ this weekend, and does anyone else feel like it started off as somebody's AU KTK fanfic? They even did the same "the clans are named after parts of a dragon" thing, though they chose different body parts.

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## Haruspex_Pariah

Part 5 of the, uh, story has been released. On my phone so linking is a hassle.

*Spoiler*
Show

It does feel a little rushed, and far too short, though I guess important stuff did happen for most of the characters.
Will and Rowan defeat the Blood Avatar, which is no surprise given the cards, but the story indicates long-term injuries. Wills leg and Rowan getting side effects from the Snarl.
Liliana seemingly gives up on resurrection, and teaches under her real name. Though having her teleported out of the final fight was kind of annoying, this was Will and Rowans moment so fine.
Kasmina and Lukka...might as well not have been in the story at all, if Im being completely frank.

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## LaZodiac

Kasmina and Lukka are definitely here in a "lets catch up with the Mystery Lady and the scruffy ******* no one likes but will be important later" sense, yeah. Liliana getting bounce spells out of the conflict is a little annoying, but also hilarious.

Will and Rowan had a great time saving the day, though both got ****ed up, and I like it. Rowan has tasted the power and is left kinda empty without it, and Will lost a leg but we're not dweling on it like it is a bad thing- far from it, it's a sign of his time at school here that it's made of his improved magic and with help from his friends.

also rip Extus, not saving any removal for when his big finisher gets taken over by the red/blue deck. For shame.

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## mythmonster2

Extus is... definitely one of the worst villains we've had in a while. I couldn't name a single thing about him that wouldn't apply to 20 other generic villains. The Blood Avatar, despite being the personification of an entire era of global warfare, may as well have been a T-Rex with what was shown in the story.  Liliana's part of the story was good, the twins were alright if also a bit cliched, and Kasmina and Lukka were greatly underutilized. The side stories have been good, though.

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## LaZodiac

I'll be honest I'm glad we had Extus as a villain. I love this college flunk out loser.

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## Haruspex_Pariah

The Zimone story has been released. It definitely has my interest, and I hope we see more.

Also it seems like the side stories are occurring concurrently with the main story. So the chronological order isnt immediately clear.

*Spoiler*
Show

Extus being alive is a big clue, lol.

Given how her cards flavour text has her rattling off technobabble like a typical Hollywood genius, I was expecting Zimone herself to be similarly unlikeable.

But the story was...okay. We get an understanding of who Zimone is as a character, what shes trying to achieve and why.

I dont quite know what the situation with her grandma is. Maybe shes suffering from some real world condition that I am unfamiliar with. If I had to guess, Nimiroti has moments of clarity and she uses those opportunities to send her packages.

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## LaZodiac

> The Zimone story has been released. It definitely has my interest, and I hope we see more.
> 
> Also it seems like the side stories are occurring concurrently with the main story. So the chronological order isnt immediately clear.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Extus being alive is a big clue, lol.
> 
> ...


Whether induced due to the strain of the math she solved, or her own brain punching, she very clearly has Alzheimer's Disease.

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## RayGallade

I decided to buy a set booster box. Sat down with my wife to do an 8-pack Winston draft. Definitely an interesting way to play.

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## Laughing Dog

So I just had an interesting match.  My opponent was playing an Abzan angels/graveyard recursion deck, I was playing a Grixis Foretell deck.  My opponent gets Elspeth Conquers Death out, I play Tegrid's Lantern.  Next turn I top draw Tegrid, and play her.  Third lore counter goes on ECD, and opponent brings back Kaya (Kaldheim).  Tegrid triggers from ECD being sacrificed.  I put it on the battlefield under my control and exile Kaya.  My opponent scooped.

So Tegrid is now on my list of soft counters for Sagas. :Small Big Grin:

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## Emmerlaus

> So I just had an interesting match.  My opponent was playing an Abzan angels/graveyard recursion deck, I was playing a Grixis Foretell deck.  My opponent gets Elspeth Conquers Death out, I play Tegrid's Lantern.  Next turn I top draw Tegrid, and play her.  Third lore counter goes on ECD, and opponent brings back Kaya (Kaldheim).  Tegrid triggers from ECD being sacrificed.  I put it on the battlefield under my control and exile Kaya.  My opponent scooped.
> 
> So Tegrid is now on my list of soft counters for Sagas.


Te grid is cancer lol! Shes the reason I want 10 copies of Homewards Path... and it only work for creatures sigh :Small Sigh:

----------


## Personification

> Te grid is cancer lol! Shes the reason I want 10 copies of Homewards Path... and it only work for creatures sigh


What format is this?

----------


## Emmerlaus

> What format is this?


One for each Commander deck I have. Not in the same deck lol

----------


## enderlord99

Whenever I play a forest then an island (or vis versa) on my first two turns, people tend to concede, presumably because they don't know I'm playing 4-color jank.

----------


## Jurai

So, I'm building Birgi Storm, using Grinning Ignus as well as Cloudstone Kobold and the 0-drop Kobolds.  Any other good recommendations for jacking my storm count up?

----------


## Personification

> One for each Commander deck I have. Not in the same deck lol


So, presumably this means that someone in your group always brings a Tergrid deck. If so, while not a perfect or permanent solution, you can always go with the solution of bringing a Trostani Discordant deck for yourself.

----------


## Emmerlaus

> So, presumably this means that someone in your group always brings a Tergrid deck. If so, while not a perfect or permanent solution, you can always go with the solution of bringing a Trostani Discordant deck for yourself.


Nah but stealing creatures is a recurrent thing. Thanks for reminding me of that card however... Im considering making a Jared true heir deck thematic deck with beautiful girls/cards inside and this fit the bill lol

----------


## Spore

By the gods Strixhaven Limited is a handful. I am by no means experienced with it, but I have had two 7 win runs on MTGA on previous sets. My two runs this time were 2-3 and 1-3. Between Mystical Archive bombs from enemies and my cantrips not doing enough most of my decks suffered from either bad mana fixing or an anemic top end.

But it's mostly Magecraft I cannot get my head around in that format. Timing was way off the few times I played my creatures for tempo. I feel too hasty when playing for tempo, and too greedy when the stuff sits in my hand while my opponent mashes my face in.

----------


## RayGallade

I've been playing a fair bit of Bo3 lately and have found that I either go 0-3 or 3-0. Pretty much nothing in between.

Witherbloom tends to do pretty well for me, as does Prismari. Both appreciate it when I splash some white. Haven't had a decent Quandrix or Silverquill run yet.

----------


## Haruspex_Pariah

Funny story. I got back into Arena mid way through Kaldheim (left mid way through Eldraine), and today was the legit the first time I played against a Cycling deck. It was like "gee I sure hope they don't have Zenith Flare" followed by "they've been cycling the entire game of course they have it".

----------


## LaZodiac

Big magic reveal today! Modern Horizons 2 and Adventures in the Forgotten Realm!

Modern Horizons 2 News.
 - Crazy **** like a land that is also a saga.
 - Return of super old legacy frames for things
 - The special showcase art is "sketch art", which is fascinating an idea
 - Same stuff as usualy; plays on old cards from Modern and Modern stuff for the first time since forever
 - A few card reveals along those lines.

Forgotten Realms News.
 - Going balls to the wall with flavour, the basic lands have adventure prompts on them based on the mana type.
 - Lots of classic DND stuff; preview of Portable Hole (standard white temporary exile thing), Power Word Kill (kills anything that isn't an angel, demon devil, or dragon)
 - TIAMAT reveal, hell yeah dragon mom.
 - Showcase frame is a really lovely looking worn paper effect, with the art looking like class rulebook DND monster art. It's great; they showcase it with a Beholder
 - Vorpal Sword that lets you instant kill a player.

So yeah, that's all pretty cool.

The mothership also put the info here for us, btw.

----------


## Tvtyrant

*Spoiler: Urza's Saga*
Show

Ugggggggh

So it's a land that is an auto-1 of in commander. Makes OP tokens, summons sol ring, it's just fantastic. So annoying.

----------


## Dienekes

I see the power of Urza's Saga is dramatically reduced from the 90s.

----------


## Personification

> *Spoiler: Urza's Saga*
> Show
> 
> Ugggggggh
> 
> So it's a land that is an auto-1 of in commander. Makes OP tokens, summons sol ring, it's just fantastic. So annoying.


More importantly, it has the type line Enchantment Land - Urza's Saga.
I feel like the weird Tron Rules exist purely so that this could be a thing.

----------


## Emmerlaus

> More importantly, it has the type line Enchantment Land - Urza's Saga.
> I feel like the weird Tron Rules exist purely so that this could be a thing.


Urza's Saga and Hex Parasite just became the newest couple of MTG! 

Seriously, I can predict a huge spike of the price of Hex Parasite lol

----------


## Haruspex_Pariah

So far so good. There isn't enough to form any kind of pattern, but they've dropped a Power Word, halflings and innkeepers, as well as a portable hole and Tiamat. Cool, cool. Looks like beholders and mind flayers are on the cards (lol) as well.

The only thing I wonder about is how heavily they'll lean into the whole "adventuring party" thing. Looking at you, _Zendikar Rising_. Given the sheer amount of content you can find in the D&D universe, the set could easily focus on the monsters, NPCs, and equipment/spells, plus some famous names like Drizzt and so on.

My first guess is that they won't use the party mechanic at all (because they'd have to design around it), but represent the various classes with whatever creature subtype suits them best. I would be genuinely surprised if there wasn't at least a small nod to the core Player's Handbook classes.

----------


## Personification

> So far so good. There isn't enough to form any kind of pattern, but they've dropped a Power Word, halflings and innkeepers, as well as a portable hole and Tiamat. Cool, cool. Looks like beholders and mind flayers are on the cards (lol) as well.
> 
> The only thing I wonder about is how heavily they'll lean into the whole "adventuring party" thing. Looking at you, _Zendikar Rising_. Given the sheer amount of content you can find in the D&D universe, the set could easily focus on the monsters, NPCs, and equipment/spells, plus some famous names like Drizzt and so on.
> 
> My first guess is that they won't use the party mechanic at all (because they'd have to design around it), but represent the various classes with whatever creature subtype suits them best. I would be genuinely surprised if there wasn't at least a small nod to the core Player's Handbook classes.


It would mean them finally folding and making Bard a type (your welcome Yisan).

----------


## Haruspex_Pariah

> It would mean them finally folding and making Bard a type (your welcome Yisan).


Yea, there don't seem to be any hard and fast rules about that kind of thing. Searching Scryfall, I find creatures which are named "sorcerer" but are of the Wizard type. "Bards" are Rogues or Shamans. "Paladins" are Knights. "Rangers" are Scouts, Warriors, Soldiers, Archers, etc. 

Ooh! Kobolds! Maybe they'll have a lot more kobolds.

And ten foot poles. There's a lot of iconic things to draw from.

----------


## Personification

> Yea, there don't seem to be any hard and fast rules about that kind of thing. Searching Scryfall, I find creatures which are named "sorcerer" but are of the Wizard type. "Bards" are Rogues or Shamans. "Paladins" are Knights. "Rangers" are Scouts, Warriors, Soldiers, Archers, etc. 
> 
> Ooh! Kobolds! Maybe they'll have a lot more kobolds.
> 
> And ten foot poles. There's a lot of iconic things to draw from.


The real issue is that while all of the D&D classes mean something in D&D, they have different meanings in other parts of fantasy. Magic doesn't have sorcerers that are distinct from wizards, in part because mage class is more to do with style than origin of the power (Warlocks, by the way, also don't work the way they do in D&D and are mostly just Black-aligned Wizards). Of the D&D classes that don't have MtG classes yet, though, Bards are the ones that would make the most sense to add.

----------


## enderlord99

> *Spoiler: Story spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Oh no, I foresee a creature typeline in the future: Phyrexian God


I foresee something worse:
*Spoiler*
Show

Legendary Planeswalker - Norn

Your subtype-combination will probably happen shortly beforehand, though.

Yes, it took me this long to think of it.

----------


## LaZodiac

They have already confirmed that the Forgotten Realms set is not part of Magic canon, sadly.

----------


## enderlord99

> They have already confirmed that the Forgotten Realms set is not part of Magic canon, sadly.


That's good, actually.  There are already meta-settings that (at one point) include(d) Forgotten Realms: Spelljammer is the main one, but there's also Planescape, which includes Spelljammer.

Adding it to the Magic multiverse would cause even more headache than when they tried to separate it from its roots.

----------


## LaZodiac

> That's good, actually.  There are already meta-settings that (at one point) include(d) Forgotten Realms: Spelljammer is the main one, but there's also Planescape, which includes Spelljammer.
> 
> Adding it to the Magic multiverse would cause even more headache than when they tried to separate it from its roots.


I was personally of the opinion that the forgotten realms and all of its stuff was one big super plane ala Kaldheim.

----------


## enderlord99

> I was personally of the opinion that the forgotten realms and all of its stuff was one big super plane ala Kaldheim.


Again: the Forgotten Realms and "all of its stuff" is already connected to other, separate things.  As in, ones that belong to other settings.

Seriously, look up Spelljammer.

----------


## unseenmage

> Again: the Forgotten Realms and "all of its stuff" is already connected to other, separate things.  As in, ones that belong to other settings.
> 
> Seriously, look up Spelljammer.


The Forgotten Realms is canonically connected to our, the real, world too iirc. 

Thar setting is practically metaphysical Swiss cheese with all the ways one could leave it for other realities.

If anything this makes it one of the best places to wind up having a one-way transfer of items and NPCs into the MtG universe from.

----------


## noob

> The Forgotten Realms is canonically connected to our, the real, world too iirc. 
> 
> Thar setting is practically metaphysical Swiss cheese with all the ways one could leave it for other realities.
> 
> If anything this makes it one of the best places to wind up having a one-way transfer of items and NPCs into the MtG universe from.


It also makes it one of the worst places if as a fan you do not want mtg to include cards like "stealth plane" and "railgun battleship" and "nuclear bomb" (probably something like "destroy target land and deal 4 damage to all the creatures") because in the long term it can explain earth crossovers because earth is included in FR (who wants to play a "modern earth artifact deck with urza terrains" vs a "hangman deck" ? No clue).

----------


## unseenmage

> It also makes it one of the worst places if as a fan you do not want mtg to include cards like "stealth plane" and "railgun battleship" and "nuclear bomb" (probably something like "destroy target land and deal 4 damage to all the creatures") because in the long term it can explain earth crossovers because earth is included in FR (who wants to play a "modern earth artifact deck with urza terrains" vs a "hangman deck" ? No clue).


Alternative horror story, fiat monsters like The Lady of Pain, The Dark Powers of Ravenloft, or the myriad unstattable horrors of the Far Realm getting cards so instead of being ineffable they are removed by a single removal or board wipe spell.  *shudders*

----------


## rferries

Not sure if this is the right thread for homebrewing, and I haven't played in almost 2 decades so my balance is no doubt way off, but here's my stab at some custom cards.

*Celestial Bureaucracy* (X)WW
Sorcery

Cycling 2.

Gain control of each planeswalker and each legendary creature with converted mana cost X or less.

Each player gains X life.

_Join the cause of righteousness!_

*Dominate Monster* (X)UU
Enchantment - Aura

Enchant creature or planeswalker with converted casting cost X or less.

You control enchanted creature or planeswalker.

_You belong to me._

*Humble Farmer* W
Creature - Peasant 0/3

Defender

At the beginning of your upkeep, you may look at the top of your deck. If it is a Plains, you may reveal it and add it to your hand.

_It's simple work, yet honest._

*Introspection* U
Enchantment

At the beginning of your upkeep, Scry 0.

If you would Scry, you Scry that many cards plus 1 instead.

Whenever you Scry 3 or more, you may draw a card.

_To know one's self is to know one's future._

*Planeswalkers' Immortality* WW
Enchantment

Cycling 2.

You may cast this spell from your graveyard or from exile.

At the beginning of your upkeep, each player may place each card they own in exile in their graveyard, then shuffle their graveyard and place it on the bottom of the deck.

_Once we were no more limited by eternity than we are by infinity._


And here are a bunch of counterparts for Valakut, Molten Pinnacle (which isn't legendary for some reason?!).

*Avalon, The Misted Archipelago* (0)
Land

Avalon, The Misted Archipelago enters the battlefield tapped.

While you control at least five Islands, your Islands gain Flash and "When this land enters the battlefield under your control, choose one - counter target instant or sorcery spell; or return target permanent to its owner's hand; or Scry 2 then draw a card."

Tap: Add U.

*Babylon, The Verdant Gardens* (0)
Land

Babylon, The Verdant Gardens enters the battlefield tapped.

Whenever a Forest enters the battlefield under your control, if you control at least five other Forests, you may put three tokens on the battlefield in any combination of food tokens and/or 1/1 green Saproling tokens.

Tap: Add G.

*Camelot, The Shining Realm* (0)
Land

Camelot, The Shining Realm enters the battlefield tapped.

Whenever a Plains enters the battlefield under your control, if you control at least five other Plains, you may gain 3 life, draw a card, and put a treasure token on the battlefield.

Tap: Add W.

*Halicarnassus, The Shadowed Mausoleum* (0)
Land

Halicarnassus, The Shadowed Mausoleum enters the battlefield tapped.

Whenever a Swamp enters the battlefield under your control, if you control at least five other Swamps, you may place a -1/-1 counter on each creature then return a creature or artifact from your graveyard to your hand.

Tap: Add B.

----------


## Eldest

> Not sure if this is the right thread for homebrewing, and I haven't played in almost 2 decades so my balance is no doubt way off, but here's my stab at some custom cards.
> 
> *Celestial Bureaucracy* (X)WW
> Sorcery
> 
> Cycling 2.
> 
> Gain control of each planeswalker and each legendary creature with converted mana cost X or less.
> 
> ...


You're adding three different effects to white that traditionally are not white's deal to various degrees. Stealing control of other people's stuff really doesn't fit. The humble farmer card I would personally consider making cost GW, since manaless card advantage focused on land both belongs primarily to green, and because it's fairly powerful. Alternatively, I think you could consider buffing it if you made it, for example, cost G1 + tap to activate. Finally, graveyard going into the deck is really a blue or green then.

The lands are very high power. I don't know why the white land gets to draw a card here. 

The islands getting flash means you can play an island during each turn, not just your own, which is... weird and probably unbalanced. I'd consider something along the lines of "when you own 5 islands, this land gains "1, tap, put an island from your hand into play", and when an island enters the battlefield under your control, if you control 5 or more islands, you may counter target spell unless it's control pays 1.

I would consider looking at making +1/+1 counters on things for the white land, maybe bringing back something like Bolster. Lifegain is good, too, but I don't know why white would get card draw or mana ramp from this.

I'd suggest tuning down the number of tokens that the green land grants. Field of the Dead is an example of an attempt at making a land that generates tokens, and it was both more restrictive, harder to turn online, and made less power. It also got banned in modern for being too good.

Maybe the black one should drain? Or give a target creature -2/-2 until end of turn, plus give you 2 life if that creature dies this turn?

This isn't supposed to be, like, discouraging the idea. I love the idea of finishing out the Valakut cycle. I just think you're aiming super high for power level, and might have a broader thought of what white should be able to do as a color than I do.

----------


## Dienekes

> Not sure if this is the right thread for homebrewing, and I haven't played in almost 2 decades so my balance is no doubt way off, but here's my stab at some custom cards.


Nothing strictly against it, and can be fun.



> *Celestial Bureaucracy* (X)WW
> Sorcery
> 
> Cycling 2.
> 
> Gain control of each planeswalker and each legendary creature with converted mana cost X or less.
> 
> Each player gains X life.
> 
> _Join the cause of righteousness!_


This is a WU spell. U is permanent stealing, W (or technically G as well) is healing. That and Bureaucracy is often regarded as a UW kind of thing. If it was XUW this would probably be a fine card. Other control effects tend to cost about 4. 




> *Dominate Monster* (X)UU
> Enchantment - Aura
> 
> Enchant creature or planeswalker with converted casting cost X or less.
> 
> You control enchanted creature or planeswalker.
> 
> _You belong to me._


Seems fine to be honest. 6 to gain control of a 4 drop planeswalker? Seems fair. 4 to gain a 2 drop? Worse than Tempted by the Oriq. 




> *Humble Farmer* W
> Creature - Peasant 0/3
> 
> Defender
> 
> At the beginning of your upkeep, you may look at the top of your deck. If it is a Plains, you may reveal it and add it to your hand.
> 
> _It's simple work, yet honest._


As written this is pretty G. W ramp usually takes the form of Treasure tokens or some form of penalty or tax on your opponent. Personally, I'd change it to: At the start of your turn, if you control less lands than your opponent, you may look at the top 4 cards of your library. If one is a Plains you may put it into your head. Shuffle. 

I'd also remove Defender, it's kinda unnecessary for a 0/3 that isn't a wall. And White buffing peasant levies into attacking fits them pretty well.

That might make it an actually tourney level sideboard card. Personally, I'd add 1 to the cost, because I like Magic lower powered. Otherwise I think dropping it down to 0/2. This kind of thing I feel should be shockable. 




> *Introspection* U
> Enchantment
> 
> At the beginning of your upkeep, Scry 0.
> 
> If you would Scry, you Scry that many cards plus 1 instead.
> 
> Whenever you Scry 3 or more, you may draw a card.
> 
> _To know one's self is to know one's future._


Scry 1 every round, Enchantment so more difficult to get rid of. A buff to all other Scrying and potential recurring card draw? For one? Cool effects, but I'd up the cost a bit. As of now, this fits U, though there are rumblings Scry stuff is going to be shifted more toward W in the future.




> *Planeswalkers' Immortality* WW
> Enchantment
> 
> Cycling 2.
> 
> You may cast this spell from your graveyard or from exile.
> 
> At the beginning of your upkeep, each player may place each card they own in exile in their graveyard, then shuffle their graveyard and place it on the bottom of the deck.
> 
> _Once we were no more limited by eternity than we are by infinity._


This card would never be created. They're trying to make a hard and fast rule that Exile means it stays gone, except specifically by the card that exiled it. Even beyond that, if someone figures out a strategy to get this effect to win them the game somehow, and someone will. What is the counter play here? You can't remove it, you can't exile it, Hell, you can't even gain control of it. Of all of them, this is the card that I think needs to be taken back to the drawing board. 




> And here are a bunch of counterparts for Valakut, Molten Pinnacle (which isn't legendary for some reason?!).


\

They don't like doing Legendary Lands because of how it interacts in gameplay. If you want a land you pretty much want 4. If you have 4 then you'll likely get multiple in your hand. And unlike creatures lands tend to stay there once played. Meaning you now just have a useless card in your hand.




> *Avalon, The Misted Archipelago* (0)
> Land
> 
> Avalon, The Misted Archipelago enters the battlefield tapped.
> 
> While you control at least five Islands, your Islands gain Flash and "When this land enters the battlefield under your control, choose one - counter target instant or sorcery spell; or return target permanent to its owner's hand; or Scry 2 then draw a card."
> 
> Tap: Add U.


This means you can play multiple U per round. And honestly, playing a land to counter a spell is terrifying. All Valakut did was 3 damage. Scry 2 then draw a card is fine and incredibly powerful since by that point in the game a U player will be searching their library for their win condition. That's all it needs.




> *Babylon, The Verdant Gardens* (0)
> Land
> 
> Babylon, The Verdant Gardens enters the battlefield tapped.
> 
> Whenever a Forest enters the battlefield under your control, if you control at least five other Forests, you may put three tokens on the battlefield in any combination of food tokens and/or 1/1 green Saproling tokens.
> 
> Tap: Add G.


Again, Valakut is just a Lightning Bolt, it's a good card but really only worth 1 mana. Or maybe 1.5 really. 3 saprolings is a bit much. 1 is probably more than enough. Though for the reasons Eldest states I'd switch to some other benefit. Maybe add two +1/+1 counters to any creatures you control or something.




> *Camelot, The Shining Realm* (0)
> Land
> 
> Camelot, The Shining Realm enters the battlefield tapped.
> 
> Whenever a Plains enters the battlefield under your control, if you control at least five other Plains, you may gain 3 life, draw a card, and put a treasure token on the battlefield.
> 
> Tap: Add W.


Hmm. Drawing a card is already powerful, for the same reasons I said it was all Avalon needed. Really drawing a card for a land drop is already pretty great. So we'd be comparing what is the equivalent of Scry 2? 3 life I think makes more sense than a Treasure token. Though honestly, I'm not really digging the card draw at all. As I said above, White's card draw is usually designed to be more limited. A response to something your opponent does or has. It's trying to make the game outside of combat play "fair."

I kind of think Camelot should have some sort of combat trick. All creatures you control gain +1/+1 until end of turn or  something. It is the city of knights after all. 




> *Halicarnassus, The Shadowed Mausoleum* (0)
> Land
> 
> Halicarnassus, The Shadowed Mausoleum enters the battlefield tapped.
> 
> Whenever a Swamp enters the battlefield under your control, if you control at least five other Swamps, you may place a -1/-1 counter on each creature then return a creature or artifact from your graveyard to your hand.
> 
> Tap: Add B.


This is another "pick one" moment. All creatures gain a -1/-1 counter is already really powerful. This card could single-handedly end go wide strategies. Though I kind of like interacting with the graveyard. But I would say, artifacts are the one thing Black doesn't really interact with in the graveyard all that much, it's usually a Blue and occasionally White thing. Perhaps creature or planeswalker? Returning one of those to your hand seems reasonable and powerful.

Well that was a fun couple minutes. Some interesting ideas.

----------


## Fable Wright

> This is a WU spell. U is permanent stealing, W (or technically G as well) is healing. That and Bureaucracy is often regarded as a UW kind of thing. If it was XUW this would probably be a fine card. Other control effects tend to cost about 4.


Evangelize is a thing, people. It's _really rare_, but it happens. Before that, Preacher was a thing. 

I could see this kind of effect being mono-white, but _definitely_ not "each" planeswalker and legendary creature. For mono-white, it would have to be one, of each opponent's choice.




> As written this is pretty G. W ramp usually takes the form of Treasure tokens or some form of penalty or tax on your opponent. Personally, I'd change it to: At the start of your turn, if you control less lands than your opponent, you may look at the top 4 cards of your library. If one is a Plains you may put it into your head. Shuffle.


Endless Horizons was also a thing. It's perfectly fine as is, though I agree that this should be a 0/1.




> This card would never be created. They're trying to make a hard and fast rule that Exile means it stays gone, except specifically by the card that exiled it. Even beyond that, if someone figures out a strategy to get this effect to win them the game somehow, and someone will. What is the counter play here? You can't remove it, you can't exile it, Hell, you can't even gain control of it. Of all of them, this is the card that I think needs to be taken back to the drawing board.


Not hard and fast. Pull From Eternity is a thing; after that, when we _thought_ exile was hard and fast, Runic Repetition was printed, and reprinted.

Interactions with exile are incredibly rare and have _only ever_ been in a set where exiled cards were a key mechanic; Pull From Eternity was made for both Flashback and Suspend, and Runic Repetition was more limited, but also allowed. 

With that having been said: this card does not fit those stringent requirements and is _going to be miserable to play against_. Do you know the kinds of annoying stuff you can pull with just Squadron Hawks and this? And this cycles, so it fits further into the Caw-Go strategy.




> This means you can play multiple U per round. And honestly, playing a land to counter a spell is terrifying. All Valakut did was 3 damage. Scry 2 then draw a card is fine and incredibly powerful since by that point in the game a U player will be searching their library for their win condition. That's all it needs.


Serum Visions is fine, but boring. A Ponder effect might be more appropriate? But yeah, I agree to ditch the flash.




> Again, Valakut is just a Lightning Bolt, it's a good card but really only worth 1 mana. Or maybe 1.5 really. 3 saprolings is a bit much. 1 is probably more than enough. Though for the reasons Eldest states I'd switch to some other benefit. Maybe add two +1/+1 counters to any creatures you control or something.


Agree. Perhaps Might of Old Krosa, for +4/+4 as a baseline? Hunger of the Howlpack for 3 +1/+1 counters? Possibly a Vines of the Vastwood effect for +4/+4 and Hexproof.




> I kind of think Camelot should have some sort of combat trick. All creatures you control gain +1/+1 until end of turn or  something. It is the city of knights after all.


Brave the Elements feels fitting? "Creatures you control gain protection from a color of your choice until end of turn."




> This is another "pick one" moment. All creatures gain a -1/-1 counter is already really powerful. This card could single-handedly end go wide strategies. Though I kind of like interacting with the graveyard. But I would say, artifacts are the one thing Black doesn't really interact with in the graveyard all that much, it's usually a Blue and occasionally White thing. Perhaps creature or planeswalker? Returning one of those to your hand seems reasonable and powerful.


It also doesn't feel very black, weird as it is to say. When Black cares about Swamps, it's usually for a Cabal Coffers or Shade effect. Honestly, I'd probably be happier with "if you control five or more swamps, you don't lose unspent black mana as steps and phases end. Whenever a swamp enters the battlefield, target creature gains 'this creature has +1/+1 for each unspent black mana you have' until end of turn." That feels better than giving a Black Ritual effect, which I usually associate with {B} spells; it's not miserable to play against; and it feels like you're accumulating a lot of magic for one of those infamously huge black {X} spells.

----------


## Androgeus

> The islands getting flash means you can play an island during each turn, not just your own, which is... weird and probably unbalanced


And also does nothing.




> 305.3. A player can't play a land, for any reason, if it isn't their turn. Ignore any part of an effect that instructs a player to do so.

----------


## Dienekes

> Evangelize is a thing, people. It's _really rare_, but it happens. Before that, Preacher was a thing. 
> 
> I could see this kind of effect being mono-white, but _definitely_ not "each" planeswalker and legendary creature. For mono-white, it would have to be one, of each opponent's choice.


Color Pie changes. Steal effects are no longer in the White mechanical slice. As of the most current released Mechanical Color Pie: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...017-2017-06-05

Probably won't see them again unless they choose to change it back for whatever reason, or they do another Planar Chaos thing where the point is messing with the mechanical color pie. Which I kinda hope they don't do. I'm not really a fan of some of the things that brought about the first time around.

Also I did not read the word "each" when reading the card. Wow. OK then. 




> Endless Horizons was also a thing. It's perfectly fine as is, though I agree that this should be a 0/1.


That was twelve years ago, and they haven't done any effect like that since. At least to my knowledge. But I'm willing to concede on this one.





> It also doesn't feel very black, weird as it is to say. When Black cares about Swamps, it's usually for a Cabal Coffers or Shade effect. Honestly, I'd probably be happier with "if you control five or more swamps, you don't lose unspent black mana as steps and phases end. Whenever a swamp enters the battlefield, target creature gains 'this creature has +1/+1 for each unspent black mana you have' until end of turn." That feels better than giving a Black Ritual effect, which I usually associate with {B} spells; it's not miserable to play against; and it feels like you're accumulating a lot of magic for one of those infamously huge black {X} spells.


My understanding is Black is moving away from temp mana/dark ritual effects and giving it more to Red and a bit in Green. It's not gone yet, but a quick look through the current Standard including multicolor cards Red has 12 and Black only has 3. One of which was a BG card, the other two were BR card. And both the BR cards only made R. 

It's kind of being replaced with effects that directly reduce mana cost of individual cards by sacrificing life or creatures though. Which personally, I think fits Black's theming more anyway.

Other than that, yeah, a lot of good suggestions.

----------


## LaZodiac

While I can't speak for Preacher, Evangelize was also in Time Spiral, which is part of the whole "let's do wacky **** that isn't actually okay".

Basically, citing Evangelize is like citing Hornet Sting.

----------


## Fable Wright

> While I can't speak for Preacher, Evangelize was also in Time Spiral, which is part of the whole "let's do wacky **** that isn't actually okay".
> 
> Basically, citing Evangelize is like citing Hornet Sting.


Preacher was in the early days of magic, when color pie identities were... much less defined.

And Hornet Sting is just the latest in a line of Green burn, starting with Unyaro Bee Sting and Unyaro Bees. 

...But yes, Time Spiral had a bunch of throwback effects to the early days when color identities were less defined and Planar Chaos was all about messing with the color wheel for alternative-present situations. I would argue that it's _OK_ to do that for Eternal-format and homebrew cards, since they exist in an environment where this bleed has happened anyways.




> Probably won't see them again unless they choose to change it back for whatever reason, or they do another Planar Chaos thing where the point is messing with the mechanical color pie. Which I kinda hope they don't do. I'm not really a fan of some of the things that brought about the first time around.


Right, but these cards aren't being made for Standard. We're looking at the breadth of Magic history here to compare against.

With that being saidand this may make me a bad personI'm kinda bummed that none of the Planar Chaos stuff ever got picked up on. Imp's Mischief and Dash Hopes, if carried forward into other designs, would help break Blue's monopoly on counterspells, meaning we could have real control archetypes outside of Blue (outside of Jund-style topdeck "control" decks). Lorwyn/Eventide was their _one chance_ to print for-real black Counterspells that would make Blue less of a do-all color, and they blew it. We've had mono-blue aggro (anyone else remember M11's illusory bears while Delver of Secrets was in standard?), control, midrange, combo, and pretty much anything else. Anything else had to rely on Discard effects for their control, which isn't nearly the same thing. Grumble grumble.

----------


## rferries

Thanks for the comments, everyone! Made some edits (esp. streamlining the lands to have classic effects based on 1-cost spells).

*Spoiler: Edited cards*
Show

*Celestial Bureaucracy* (X)WW
Sorcery

Cycling 2.

Exile each planeswalker and legendary creature you do not control with converted mana cost X or less.

Each player gains X life.

_Join the cause of righteousness!_

*Humble Farmer* W
Creature - Peasant 0/2

W, Tap: If you control fewer lands than target opponent you may search your library for a Plains card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle. Otherwise, create a food token.

_It's simple work, yet honest._

*Planeswalkers' Immortality* WW
Enchantment

Cycling 2.

You may cast this spell from your graveyard or from exile.

Whenever a card you own is discarded, milled, or exiled by a spell or ability controlled by one of your opponents, place that card on the bottom of your deck instead.

_Once we were no more limited by eternity than we are by infinity._

*Avalon, The Misted Archipelago* (0)
Land

Avalon, The Misted Archipelago enters the battlefield tapped.

Whenever an Island enters the battlefield under your control, if you control at least five other Islands, you may draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.

Tap: Add U.

*Babylon, The Verdant Gardens* (0)
Land

Babylon, The Verdant Gardens enters the battlefield tapped.

Whenever a Forest enters the battlefield under your control, if you control at least five other Forests, you may search your library for a creature card, reveal it, then shuffle and put the card on top.

Tap: Add G.

*Camelot, The Shining Realm* (0)
Land

Camelot, The Shining Realm enters the battlefield tapped.

Whenever a Plains enters the battlefield under your control, if you control at least five other Plains, you may choose one - target player gains 3 life; or prevent the next 3 damage that would be dealt to target creature or player this turn.

Tap: Add W.

*Halicarnassus, The Shadowed Mausoleum* (0)
Land

Halicarnassus, The Shadowed Mausoleum enters the battlefield tapped.

Whenever a Swamp enters the battlefield under your control, if you control at least five other Swamps, you may add BBB.

Tap: Add B.




And some new ones (last ones, I swear!):

*Benalian Merchant* WW
Creature - Advisor 2/2

Sacrifice a food token, Tap: Create two treasure tokens.

Sacrifice a treasure token, Tap: Create two food tokens.

_Peace and prosperity._

*Incorporeality* 2U
Enchantment

Illusions, Shades, Spectres, and Spirits have shadow.

_The spirit world knows no boundaries._

*Plague* 3BB
Enchantment

When your upkeep begins, put a -1/-1 counter on each creature.

_All are equal in its eyes._

*Royal Treasury* 3WW
Enchantment

Noncreature artifacts and enchantments you control have hexproof and indestructible.

_Wonders to behold._

----------


## noob

> Thanks for the comments, everyone! Made some edits (esp. streamlining the lands to have classic effects based on 1-cost spells).
> 
> *Spoiler: Edited cards*
> Show
> 
> *Celestial Bureaucracy* (X)WW
> Sorcery
> 
> Cycling 2.
> ...


Two of them seems to be meant to fit in artefact spam affinity decks.
White already have some quite powerful metalwork cards such as that w: tap target creature and if you have 3 artifacts exile it instead.
However those cards are either costly enough or slow enough to not change much.

----------


## Androgeus

> ]*Celestial Bureaucracy* (X)WW
> Sorcery
> 
> Cycling 2.
> 
> Exile each planeswalker and legendary creature you do not control with converted mana cost X or less.
> 
> Each player gains X life.


If you're feeling cute this could just say "Exile each legendary permanent..."

----------


## noob

> If you're feeling cute this could just say "Exile each legendary permanent..."


Some planeswalkers are not legendary(those are really rarely used because they are usually just weak)
also there is legendary artefacts and enchantments in this game that would then be exiled by this card.

----------


## Emmerlaus

Im a Commander player and would like to ask: in what kind of decks Shapers Sanctuary works best?

My theory so far is that is you should play it in a deck where your Commander is going to get targeted often or a deck with big dangerous creatures subject to removal.

----------


## Tvtyrant

The deathtouch= poison commander because it makes every trade a bad trade, and they have to trade or lose the game.

Toski because it already favors turning big tramply bombs into ca, and again you are guaranteeing the advantage one way or another.

----------


## Androgeus

> Some planeswalkers are not legendary(those are really rarely used because they are usually just weak)


They all are. They were errated. The only non-legendary planeswalker is a Mystery Booster Playtest Card so doesn't really count.

----------


## Binks

> They all are. They were errated. The only non-legendary planeswalker is a Mystery Booster Playtest Card so doesn't really count.


Yep. It was part of Ixalan. To quote Wizards themselves "Starting with this set, all planeswalkers past, present, and future will have the supertype legendary". It was the change that let you have 2 of the same planeswalker out as long as they were different cards.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...alan-mechanics

The only non-legendary planeswalker is Personal Decoy, which (as mentioned) is not a black-border card.

----------


## RayGallade

Now granted, there are ways of generating non-legendary token copies of specific planeswalkers (Jace, Cunning Castaway and Jace, Mirror Mage) along with Spark Double being able to copy an existing planeswalker without being legendary, but those are quite rare effects.

----------


## Eldest

First, I want to say I like a lot of these concepts, and these mostly look significantly more balanced. Specific critique to follow here.




> *Celestial Bureaucracy* (X)WW
> Sorcery
> 
> Cycling 2.
> 
> Exile each planeswalker and legendary creature you do not control with converted mana cost X or less.
> 
> Each player gains X life.


I think this shouldn't have the "you do not control" clause. It's already something you can control for in three ways, in that you know you have this and your opponent normally doesn't, you can build a deck so that it doesn't have any legendary creatures to get hit by this, and finally theoretically if you have a five drop Teferi and they only have a few four drops you can just pick x=4. Adding a fourth thing that protects your side of the board seems iffy.

I would say that I like the idea of just having this wipe non-land legendary permanents of all kinds, though! 




> *Planeswalkers' Immortality* WW
> Enchantment
> 
> Cycling 2.
> 
> You may cast this spell from your graveyard or from exile.
> 
> Whenever a card you own is discarded, milled, or exiled by a spell or ability controlled by one of your opponents, place that card on the bottom of your deck instead.
> 
> _Once we were no more limited by eternity than we are by infinity._


This still feels more green to me. I am again ambivalent on the card itself: bringing back from exile is a strong effect that is very, very rare.




> *Royal Treasury* 3WW
> Enchantment
> 
> Noncreature artifacts and enchantments you control have hexproof and indestructible.
> 
> _Wonders to behold._


This I would make legendary, and have it state that _other_ noncreature enchantments and artifacts you control have hexproof and indestructible. As a game health thing, I feel very iffy about a card protecting both itself and all other enchantments and artifacts, and it's not like you can't have other enchantments that go on to protect the Royal Treasury. There exists at least one and I want to say two enchantments that give all others hexproof.

----------


## enderlord99

Zodi, how likely would you say it is that Rat will be in Modern Horizons 2?

----------


## LaZodiac

> Zodi, how likely would you say it is that Rat will be in Modern Horizons 2?


Zero Percent. The fanbase at large ****ing hates those books, and as evidenced by the way Strixhaven ends they're doing their best to just, push away from even the good parts of it.

----------


## enderlord99

> Zero Percent. The fanbase at large ****ing hates those books, and as evidenced by the way Strixhaven ends they're doing their best to just, push away from even the good parts of it.


Oh.  I thought it was only the second one peple hated, not both of them.

I never read either of them.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Oh.  I thought it was only the second one peple hated, not both of them.
> 
> I never read either of them.


They have good parts and bad parts. The second novel is far worse. A lot of people are just brutally unfair to them, but I get it.

----------


## Zhentarim

Is this a good deck? I want to get a second opinion before I buy.
*Spoiler: Image is extra large so people can read the text*
Show

picasion.com

----------


## mythmonster2

As a general rule of thumb, you always want to keep your deck at the lowest size possible, in this case, 60. You need to cut a lot of stuff here: the Auras for sure, the weird anti-Flying spells (you'll be better off having more universal removal that won't be dead against most decks), and a lot of your weaker creatures.

----------


## Tvtyrant

> Is this a good deck? I want to get a second opinion before I buy.
> *Spoiler: Image is extra large so people can read the text*
> Show
> 
> picasion.com


What format is it for? What is your goal? Looks like you made a full sized bogles style deck and a flying deck and shoved them together, you really need hexproof creatures for auras to be good and no more then 60 cards.

----------


## Shadow of the Sun

Yeah, that question needs a lot more qualifiers. What format, what budget, what level of play, etc.

----------


## Zhentarim

> What format is it for? What is your goal? Looks like you made a full sized bogles style deck and a flying deck and shoved them together, you really need hexproof creatures for auras to be good and no more then 60 cards.


I was going for a cheap constructed modern pauper deck, since I don't want to spend a lot of money. I've played some mtg arena online, and would like to make my own physical deck to sponsor a club at the high school I teach at, or at least have some matchups at the local gaming store. I still am not 100% sure what I'm doing, but I remember that in mtg arena, I really liked aggressive decks built with either haste or flying.

----------


## Emmerlaus

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-set/...gotten-realms/

Three new spoilers (for now)!

Damn, my warrior tribal deck would have loved the dwarf but I cant take it, doesnt fit the theme lol

----------


## Tvtyrant

> I was going for a cheap constructed modern pauper deck, since I don't want to spend a lot of money. I've played some mtg arena online, and would like to make my own physical deck to sponsor a club at the high school I teach at, or at least have some matchups at the local gaming store. I still am not 100% sure what I'm doing, but I remember that in mtg arena, I really liked aggressive decks built with either haste or flying.


Are these players who have already been playing pauper or are you introducing them? 

Competitive pauper is not a brewing format, it is a low to the ground very fast format that has all of the power in the 1-2 drop section. If you like haste I would suggest burn, if flying either Boros Kitty or Faerie Ninjas (also known as deep hour aggro but basically it is delver with some extra critters.) Remember that Affinity is legally playable with artifact lands in the format, so you have a turn 3 kill aggro deck to compete with. 

If you want a very cheap, slower format I would suggest introducing pauper commander or 100 card pauper highlander (ie pauper commander without a commander.) That would let you play a slower deck that is more like a limited deck and less like a competitive format.

----------


## Dienekes

> http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-set/...gotten-realms/
> 
> Three new spoilers (for now)!
> 
> Damn, my warrior tribal deck would have loved the dwarf but I cant take it, doesnt fit the theme lol


My dwarf deck can though. And will. 

*Spoiler*
Show


So, I'm guessing gods are going to be represented as planeswalkers, makes sense, I suppose. Rather than having literally every high level spellcaster get the treatment.

----------


## noob

> My dwarf deck can though. And will. 
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> So, I'm guessing gods are going to be represented as planeswalkers, makes sense, I suppose. Rather than having literally every high level spellcaster get the treatment.


There is at least one dnd god represented as a legendary creature.

----------


## Dienekes

> There is at least one dnd god represented as a legendary creature.


Right, yeah, two lines below the one I was talking about too. 

Hmm. Well, I don't see a pattern then.

----------


## enderlord99

My opponent just tried to exile-mill me with Ulamog, and they did indeed exile basically my entire library, including my single copy of Ormos, Archive Keeper...

...after I had already Ult-ed the Kaldheim version of Kaya.  Twice.

I then decided to see how many total instances of that emblem I could stack before my opponent would admit they lost.  Turns out it was nine, this time.

----------


## noob

> My opponent just tried to exile-mill me with Ulamog, and they did indeed exile basically my entire library, including my single copy of Ormos, Archive Keeper...
> 
> ...after I had already Ult-ed the Kaldheim version of Kaya.  Twice.
> 
> I then decided to see how many total instances of that emblem I could stack before my opponent would admit they lost.  Turns out it was nine, this time.


That opponent was very persistent.

----------


## enderlord99

> That opponent was very persistent.


They sure were.

----------


## Fable Wright

> My opponent just tried to exile-mill me with Ulamog, and they did indeed exile basically my entire library, including my single copy of Ormos, Archive Keeper...
> 
> ...after I had already Ult-ed the Kaldheim version of Kaya.  Twice.
> 
> I then decided to see how many total instances of that emblem I could stack before my opponent would admit they lost.  Turns out it was nine, this time.


To be fair, all they needed was instant speed exile/ bounce to cast at the end of your upkeep to win. 

Alternatively, they were trying to be polite and let you just take the win without a DC or concede while you Bad Mannered them.

----------


## LansXero

> would like to make my own physical deck to sponsor a club at the high school I teach at,


Learn a bit more about the basics of the game, then hit your local game store with your club members for welcome boosters and ask if they still have the welcome decks WotC used to send. At any rate they should at least have the Arena Starter Decks, which are cheap and useable.




> or at least have some matchups at the local gaming store.


What format do people play there? You cant just show up with a deck for a random format and expect people to have a deck for it as well. And no, playing cross-format (like commander vs modern or standard vs pauper) doesnt exist, not even 'for fun'. 




> I still am not 100% sure what I'm doing


who is? but still, you have a lot of reading to do first.

----------


## LansXero

> My opponent just tried to exile-mill me with Ulamog, and they did indeed exile basically my entire library, including my single copy of Ormos, Archive Keeper...
> 
> ...after I had already Ult-ed the Kaldheim version of Kaya.  Twice.
> 
> I then decided to see how many total instances of that emblem I could stack before my opponent would admit they lost.  Turns out it was nine, this time.


You honestly read like a nightmare to play with / against.

----------


## noob

> To be fair, all they needed was instant speed exile/ bounce to cast at the end of your upkeep to win. 
> 
> Alternatively, they were trying to be polite and let you just take the win without a DC or concede while you Bad Mannered them.


Or even a spell that sends to the graveyard as an instant.
There is three colours with convenient instant speed removal or bounce for creatures and five if you consider damage does the job fine.

----------


## enderlord99

> You honestly read like a nightmare to play with / against.


I play slow jank, so probably.

----------


## Zhentarim

> Learn a bit more about the basics of the game, then hit your local game store with your club members for welcome boosters and ask if they still have the welcome decks WotC used to send. At any rate they should at least have the Arena Starter Decks, which are cheap and useable.
> 
> 
> 
> What format do people play there? You cant just show up with a deck for a random format and expect people to have a deck for it as well. And no, playing cross-format (like commander vs modern or standard vs pauper) doesnt exist, not even 'for fun'. 
> 
> 
> 
> who is? but still, you have a lot of reading to do first.


I'm going to swing by and ask, but in the meantime, I made this Modern deck and I want to know if I am on to something with making a flying deck that uses +1/+1 counters:

*Spoiler: Enormous Image to make sure people can see*
Show

picasion.com

----------


## LansXero

> I made this Modern deck and I want to know if I am on to something


Thats too vague of a question. Modern, in and of itself, is an extremely fast and competitive format, so cute ideas like that aren't viable. However, it all depends on who you'll be playing with.

As a general rule, the more permissive the format, the more broken your deck needs to be, and the sooner you need to lock / finish the game.

----------


## mythmonster2

> I'm going to swing by and ask, but in the meantime, I made this Modern deck and I want to know if I am on to something with making a flying deck that uses +1/+1 counters:
> 
> *Spoiler: Enormous Image to make sure people can see*
> Show
> 
> picasion.com


Like LansXero said, Modern as played in competitive is a very high-powered format; you have the potential to lose on turn 4 if you're not packing the right stuff. This just wouldn't cut it; you have a bunch of tiny 1/1s and no way to buff them until turn 3 at the earliest. However, there is a deck that does something similar with cheap creatures and buffing them up, called Bogles. Instead of flying, it has hexproof, and it uses Auras instead of +1/+1 counters. If you're not opposed to netdecking, this could be a similar playstyle that's much more viable. Of course, if you're just playing with some friends, a more casual deck is perfectly fine.

----------


## Eurus

> Like LansXero said, Modern as played in competitive is a very high-powered format; you have the potential to lose on turn 4 if you're not packing the right stuff. This just wouldn't cut it; you have a bunch of tiny 1/1s and no way to buff them until turn 3 at the earliest. However, there is a deck that does something similar with cheap creatures and buffing them up, called Bogles. Instead of flying, it has hexproof, and it uses Auras instead of +1/+1 counters. If you're not opposed to netdecking, this could be a similar playstyle that's much more viable. Of course, if you're just playing with some friends, a more casual deck is perfectly fine.


Infect is another potential route if you want to do small cheap creatures and buff them up. I _think_ infect is still played in modern, anyway; the format is generally way too brutal and expensive for me to mess with.

----------


## Mystic Muse

> I'm going to swing by and ask, but in the meantime, I made this Modern deck and I want to know if I am on to something with making a flying deck that uses +1/+1 counters:
> 
> *Spoiler: Enormous Image to make sure people can see*
> Show
> 
> picasion.com


I will let you know right now, this deck will not work in anything resembling a Modern meta. 

*Spoiler: mono-red burn*
Show



Creatures
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Goblin Guide
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
2x Chandra's incinerator

Spells
4x Lava Spike
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Skewer the Critics
4x Skullcrack
4X Rift Bolt
2x Searing Blaze

Enchantments
4x Seal of Fire

Lands
16x Mountain
4x Ramunap Ruins





This isn't an especially great version of burn, but can be built for ~$100. I'm not sure what your deck would be able to do about this one simply outrunning you. 

If you want to get into Magic for less than $100, try to convince your store to run pauper, or commander. Any of the traditional 60 card formats will be basically impossible to get into cheaply.

----------


## LansXero

> If you want to get into Magic for less than $100, try to convince your store to run pauper, or commander. Any of the traditional 60 card formats will be basically impossible to get into cheaply.


Commander can be just as expensive if not more than Modern. Its less format, more mindset; either people pay to win or they dont, cant do it with no context, instead of asking the internet he should hit the store and ask the people there what they play.

----------


## Mystic Muse

> Commander can be just as expensive if not more than Modern. Its less format, more mindset; either people pay to win or they dont, cant do it with no context, instead of asking the internet he should hit the store and ask the people there what they play.


True. Should have put the caveat of "depending on the group." When it comes to Commander, because the same problem could exist. 

Yeah, pauper is probably your best bet for getting into Magic cheaply.

----------


## LansXero

> Yeah, pauper is probably your best bet for getting into Magic cheaply.


That is, of course, if anybody plays that at his local store. Its not super niche but also not something you can just assume there will be.

Also:

Oubliette (~$20/copy)

Snow-covered island ($25/playset)

Lava Spike ($~12/playset)

Pyroblast (~$12/playset)

Battle screech (~$12/playset)

Standard bearer (~$5/playset)

Muldrifter (~$5/playset)

Moments peace ($7.5/playset)

Expedition Map ($10/playset)

Its not going to break the bank, but there are "expensive" thingies here and there

----------


## Tvtyrant

> That is, of course, if anybody plays that at his local store. Its not super niche but also not something you can just assume there will be.
> 
> Also:
> 
> Oubliette (~$20/copy)
> 
> Snow-covered island ($25/playset)
> 
> Lava Spike ($~12/playset)
> ...


Pauper is relatively cheap at $100 a deck, not absolutely cheap like penny dreadful.

----------


## Emmerlaus

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Chatterfang-Squirrel-General-Modern-Horizons-2-Spoiler.png

WHY IN GOLGARI COLORS ?!?!

Sigh... Golgari get so much love already!

I would have LOVE a Grull color Legendary squirrel instead. How about every squirrels in play get haste and flying during your turn? To have a army of flying squirrels LOL 

Still Im sure this card is going to be popular.

----------


## Emmerlaus

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-set/modern-horizons-2/

Spoilers for Modern Horizon 2 started today, here's the link!

Emissiary of Serra sound fun!

----------


## Fable Wright

> I will let you know right now, this deck will not work in anything resembling a Modern meta. 
> 
> *Spoiler: mono-red burn*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> Creatures
> 4x Monastery Swiftspear
> ...


Never thought I'd see a playset of Seal of Fire in a Modern deck. It's a Skewer the Critics/ Chandra's Incinerator enabler that works with Swiftspear, yes? Any other tech I'm missing?

----------


## Mystic Muse

> Never thought I'd see a playset of Seal of Fire in a Modern deck. It's a Skewer the Critics/ Chandra's Incinerator enabler that works with Swiftspear, yes? Any other tech I'm missing?


No idea. I was just basing this off of some decks I saw online with the goal of keeping it at about $100. I'm actually not a big fan of burn, but it's an easy deck to build for Modern that you can keep relatively cheap, and you can be a little creative with some of the inclusions.

----------


## Fable Wright

> No idea. I was just basing this off of some decks I saw online with the goal of keeping it at about $100. I'm actually not a big fan of burn, but it's an easy deck to build for Modern that you can keep relatively cheap, and you can be a little creative with some of the inclusions.


Oh! I see what it's for.

Most of the decks running it are R/W and the ones with Seal of Fire have a singleton Lurrus, and they're using it as their permanent to recur. That makes a lot more sense.

----------


## Mystic Muse

> Oh! I see what it's for.
> 
> Most of the decks running it are R/W and the ones with Seal of Fire have a singleton Lurrus, and they're using it as their permanent to recur. That makes a lot more sense.


The one I was looking at was mono-red, and was probably running it for the reasons you mentioned.

----------


## Techwarrior

Honestly, mono red burn isn't the worst thing. Boros is definitely much better, but that's because Boros Charm, Lightning Helix, and white sideboard cards are all really great. 

In my experience playing various burn strategies, Seal of Fire is only really good if you can recast it. I'd honestly give the edge to Light up the Stage, Flames of the Blood Hand, or Exquisite Firecraft. Other options would include Searing Blaze 3-4 and Grim Lavamancer. 

That said, the majority of the cost of any Modern deck is usually the manabase and sideboard cards.

----------


## Personification

> http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Chatterfang-Squirrel-General-Modern-Horizons-2-Spoiler.png
> 
> WHY IN GOLGARI COLORS ?!?!
> 
> Sigh... Golgari get so much love already!
> 
> I would have LOVE a Grull color Legendary squirrel instead. How about every squirrels in play get haste and flying during your turn? To have a army of flying squirrels LOL 
> 
> Still Im sure this card is going to be popular.


Because squirrels have historically been Golgari, so it would make sense to have the first black border squirrel commander fit those colors.

----------


## Emmerlaus

> Because squirrels have historically been Golgari, so it would make sense to have the first black border squirrel commander fit those colors.


Only if you consider Unsanctioned formats not valid in Commander format. Considering that, their is ONE white squirrel in Ikoria. Therefore it would have being nice to make it white/green. I understand your point though but yeah, I would have hoped it was in Azban color at least.

----------


## Androgeus

Historically it seems theres been more GU squirrel decks (competitively speaking).

----------


## Techwarrior

That's almost certainly going to be exclusively because of Squirrel-Opp.

----------


## Personification

> Only if you consider Unsanctioned formats not valid in Commander format. Considering that, their is ONE white squirrel in Ikoria. Therefore it would have being nice to make it white/green. I understand your point though but yeah, I would have hoped it was in Azban color at least.


Unsanctioned isn't valid in Commander, at least not without house rules, and many people don't allow those house rules. Ikoria's squirrel was an outlier, other squirrels and squirrel makers have been golgari, and the squirrel archetype in this set is golgari.

----------


## enderlord99

In black-border, the very few squirrel-related cards (except Helica Glider) had all been mono-green prior to this.  I mean, there were a few colorless artifacts, but that doesn't make precedent for Golgari.

They are Golgari _now_ though.

----------


## Personification

> In black-border, the very few squirrel-related cards (except Helica Glider) had all been mono-green prior to this.  I mean, there were a few colorless artifacts, but that doesn't make precedent for Golgari.
> 
> They are Golgari _now_ though.


Fair, on the other hand, flavorfully they were always more B than any other non-green color, and while not black border legal, I would say that the un-squirrels at the very least set a design precedent. Plus, for those who DO allow Acornelia in Commander, making an entire subtheme of squirrels that for some reason veered off into a different color, and therefore was unplayable in her deck, would be infuriating. I was honestly pretty annoyed that they didn't make the first standard legal squirrel in forever white, because it wasn't really where they had ever been.

----------


## Techwarrior

I've been doing some testing with Modern Naya Lurrus Burn with the addition of Flame Rift from MH2. I've only played with it about 10 matches or so, but it feels great as Boros Charm 5-8. Getting to cut Rift Bolt out of the 75 feels fantastic in a meta where it feels like 3feri is around any corner. It also makes my sideboarding plan easier against aggro as I can easily look to those as my first cuts. I don't know that I'm on the right 75 yet, but Flame Rift is definitely a step up for Burn.

----------


## enderlord99

Garth One-eye has replaced Growing Rites of Itlimoc as my favorite way R&D has gotten around the Reserve List by adding something.

----------


## Spore

> In black-border, the very few squirrel-related cards (except Helica Glider) had all been mono-green prior to this.  I mean, there were a few colorless artifacts, but that doesn't make precedent for Golgari.
> 
> They are Golgari _now_ though.



I mean much of it was made for the lulz,  getting killed by squirrels is already a cruel fate for a planeswalker. But being killed by EVIL (undead, black, vile, dredging) squirrels? 

A whole another level.

----------


## enderlord99

What would be a good mana-cost and name for a black enchantment with "Whenever you gain 3 or more life at once, target opponent loses that much life and each other opponent loses 2 life"

----------


## Thomas Cardew

> What would be a good mana-cost and name for a black enchantment with "Whenever you gain 3 or more life at once, target opponent loses that much life and each other opponent loses 2 life"


Name : Zero Sum Game
Flavor Text: "It's not just about winning, it's about making sure everyone else loses."

No idea about cost/balance.

----------


## Techwarrior

It's a strictly better Sanguine Bond in any non-ping casers and should be costed at about that. Sure you don't get the trigger off of 1 life gain pings, but the extra damage is most likely worth it. I'd say 6 mana with double black is _probably_ fine?

----------


## Personification

> It's a strictly better Sanguine Bond in any non-ping casers and should be costed at about that. Sure you don't get the trigger off of 1 life gain pings, but the extra damage is most likely worth it. I'd say 6 mana with double black is _probably_ fine?


I'd actually say it's probably generally worse than Sanguine Bond, though this is coming from the perspective of someone who mostly plays 1v1. Lots of heavy life-gain strategies are built on blood artists and soul wardens, and this doesn't get those. I'd probably cost it closer to 1BBB or 4B, slightly easier or cheaper to cast than Sanguine Bond, but not much. I also second Thomas Cardew's suggestion of Zero Sum Game, which is much better than anything I had come up with.

As a point to templating, I would remove the "at once" and clarify that it only occurs if all of the life is gained as a single instance in reminder text.

----------


## Dienekes

So Jumpstart is on arena again. And it is frankly insane to me how much more fun I'm having with this game mode than the usual Standard.

----------


## enderlord99

*Spoiler: Impractical Breya (or, more likely, 5C) combo for EDH*
Show

You need to own well over a hundred different Eldrazi cards including: a _Spawnsire of Ulamog_ which will be the only one actually included in the deck, a _Pathrazer of Ulamog_, and _It that Betrays_.

In the unlikely event you manage to get things set up properly, you should bring everything in with the _Spawnsire_'s ability then cast _Mythos of Snapdax_ keeping a _Midnight Clock_, the _Pathrazer_, a _Battle of Wits_, and _Gideon of the Trials_.

Technically, _It_ and _Pathrazer_ are optional to this combo, as is _Gideon_.  The former two are included as backup wincons and the latter as defensive insurance.


EDIT:  Apparently it's illegal.  Maybe it'd work in regular Highlander?

----------


## Androgeus

Wouldn't work in EDH. 

Rules link



> 11. Parts of abilities which bring other card(s) you own from outside the game into the game (such as Living Wish; Spawnsire of Ulamog; Karn, the Great Creator) do not function in Commander.

----------


## Fable Wright

> Wouldn't work in EDH. 
> 
> Rules link


Huh. I always thought you had a standard Wishboard.

----------


## Androgeus

> Huh. I always thought you had a standard Wishboard.


Unfortunately not. Heres the FAQ about why they dont allow a wish board. Obviously rule 0 applies and if your playgroup agrees, you can play with wish board.

----------


## Personification

> *Spoiler: Impractical Breya (or, more likely, 5C) combo for EDH*
> Show
> 
> You need to own well over a hundred different Eldrazi cards including: a _Spawnsire of Ulamog_ which will be the only one actually included in the deck, a _Pathrazer of Ulamog_, and _It that Betrays_.
> 
> In the unlikely event you manage to get things set up properly, you should bring everything in with the _Spawnsire_'s ability then cast _Mythos of Snapdax_ keeping a _Midnight Clock_, the _Pathrazer_, a _Battle of Wits_, and _Gideon of the Trials_.
> 
> Technically, _It_ and _Pathrazer_ are optional to this combo, as is _Gideon_.  The former two are included as backup wincons and the latter as defensive insurance.
> 
> ...


While I don't know if there is any specific format that is considered "regular" highlander, I do know that Canadian Highlander also has no wishboards, though Battle of Wits is a deck that exists in the format, if only as a bit of  meme. You could theoretically build this in Vintage, though it probably wouldn't ever win games, then again, the odds of it doing that in any Highlander variant were probably low as well.

----------


## Shadow of the Sun

> While I don't know if there is any specific format that is considered "regular" highlander, I do know that Canadian Highlander also has no wishboards, though Battle of Wits is a deck that exists in the format, if only as a bit of  meme. You could theoretically build this in Vintage, though it probably wouldn't ever win games, then again, the odds of it doing that in any Highlander variant were probably low as well.


There's 7 point highlander which is 60 card format with 15 card sideboards.

----------


## unseenmage

Does Chatterfang work with Helm of the Host?

Could someone walk me through it?

----------


## Tvtyrant

> Does Chatterfang work with Helm of the Host?
> 
> Could someone walk me through it?


What part do you need help with?

Basically it would work like:

1 chatterfang with helm at beginning of combat: Creates 1 new chatterfang and 1 squirrel token.

Next combat: 2 chatterfangs create 1 new chatterfang with Helm of the Host and then each chatterfang would add a squirrel token (when one or more tokens is created, not when a token is created.) So basically you get one more token per chatterfang.

----------


## Binks

> So basically you get one more token per chatterfang.


I believe it's a bit more than that. First combat is correct, 1 chatterfang and 1 squirrel. But, assuming neither dies, the next beginning of combat looks like:

- Helm of the Host attempts to create 1 token chatterfang
- Existing Chatterfang #1 says "hey, do that, and make as many squirrels as there are tokens being created, which is 1"
- Existing Chatterfang #2 then says "hey, do that, and make as many squirrels as there are tokens being created, which is *2*" (a chatterfang and a 1/1 squirrel). Replacement effects apply to what they see and go in order, they don't apply to the original effect (Comp 616.1).

It's the same rule that makes 2 Academy Manufacturers create 3 of each token. Each chatterfang looks at the number of tokens that are about to enter the battlefield and adds that many squirrels to the list.

Third combat, assuming none die, would make 1 chatterfang, +1 squirrel, +2 squirrels, +4 squirrels. Fourth combat 1 chatterfang, +1 squirrel, +2 squirrels, +4 squirrels, +8 squirrels. etc

Of course, I am not a judge, so if we have one here would appreciate confirmation. Thanks.

----------


## Tvtyrant

> I believe it's a bit more than that. First combat is correct, 1 chatterfang and 1 squirrel. But, assuming neither dies, the next beginning of combat looks like:
> 
> - Helm of the Host attempts to create 1 token chatterfang
> - Existing Chatterfang #1 says "hey, do that, and make as many squirrels as there are tokens being created, which is 1"
> - Existing Chatterfang #2 then says "hey, do that, and make as many squirrels as there are tokens being created, which is *2*" (a chatterfang and a 1/1 squirrel). Replacement effects apply to what they see and go in order, they don't apply to the original effect (Comp 616.1).
> 
> It's the same rule that makes 2 Academy Manufacturers create 3 of each token. Each chatterfang looks at the number of tokens that are about to enter the battlefield and adds that many squirrels to the list.
> 
> Third combat, assuming none die, would make 1 chatterfang, +1 squirrel, +2 squirrels, +4 squirrels. Fourth combat 1 chatterfang, +1 squirrel, +2 squirrels, +4 squirrels, +8 squirrels. etc
> ...


I see your point, and I could be incorrect. I don't think they are triggers though, they happen simultaneously with the tokens being made?

----------


## Eurus

> I see your point, and I could be incorrect. I don't think they are triggers though, they happen simultaneously with the tokens being made?


They're replacement effects, so you're correct, they're not triggers. But multiple replacement effects can apply sequentially, as long as none of them makes the others irrelevant. They don't use the stack, but they still apply sequentially. It's the same as having two Doubling Seasons out, which is explicitly covered in the oracle rulings if you want to check here.

----------


## unseenmage

> They're replacement effects, so you're correct, they're not triggers. But multiple replacement effects can apply sequentially, as long as none of them makes the others irrelevant. They don't use the stack, but they still apply sequentially. It's the same as having two Doubling Seasons out, which is explicitly covered in the oracle rulings if you want to check here.


Which also means the Chatterfangs will not interact with Panharmonicon, correct?

----------


## Personification

> Which also means the Chatterfangs will not interact with Panharmonicon, correct?


Correct, except in the sense that if Panharmonicon doubles a token-making triggered ability, you get extra squirrels both times the ability resolves.

----------


## enderlord99

*Spoiler: I have somehow been getting an over 50% winrate with this deck in the "No Limits" FNM event.*
Show


1 Chromatic Orrery
4 Tezzeret, Artifice Master
5 Kaya the Inexorable
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Roalesk, Apex Hybrid
4 Dismal Backwater
1 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
8 Spark Double
1 Oath of Teferi
1 Lithoform Engine
4 Tranquil Cove
4 Scoured Barrens
1 God-Eternal Bontu
1 Rakdos, the Showstopper
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1 Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
6 Radiant Fountain

----------


## noob

> *Spoiler: I have somehow been getting an over 50% winrate with this deck in the "No Limits" FNM event.*
> Show
> 
> 
> 1 Chromatic Orrery
> 4 Tezzeret, Artifice Master
> 5 Kaya the Inexorable
> 1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
> 1 Roalesk, Apex Hybrid
> ...


Many of these cards are good (read ridiculously powerful but counterbalanced by mana cost) but less often played in more normal formats because in normal formats you have to kill very fast.
You do not have many cards with more normal mana costs but all your lands are hp gain lands which allows to survive to the early damage of a burn deck (such as a lightning and more lightning deck which forgot to get the cards to prevent healing).
I do not see how it fares against an aggro deck before it gets some significant non land permanents but if you can bring those before dying it works.

----------


## enderlord99

> Many of these cards are generically good (read ridiculously powerful but counterbalanced by mana cost) but less often played in more normal formats because in normal formats you have to kill very fast.
> You do not have many cards with more normal mana costs but all your lands are hp gain lands which allows to survive to the early damage of a burn deck (such as a lightning and more lightning deck which forgot to get the cards to prevent healing).
> I do not see how it fares against an aggro deck before it gets some significant non land permanents but if you can bring those before dying it works.


Believe it or not, it's actually meant as a (semi-)janky combo deck.  Generally speaking, the only cards I plan to pay any mana for whatsoever are... one copy of Kaya; one copy of Tezzeret; and an arbitrary number of Spark Doubles, all copying Kaya.  The plan is to ult Kaya several times so that I can cast-for-free Kroxa several times per turn from my graveyard (all during my upkeep) and thus pinging my opponent for 3*(emblem_count-[0|1]) damage each turn.

Basically, I have a solid plan for how to win with the deck... I'm just surprised how often I manage to pull it off.

Normally a 40% winrate is "really good" with me.

----------


## noob

> Believe it or not, it's actually meant as a (semi-)janky combo deck.  Generally speaking, the only cards I plan to pay any mana for whatsoever are... one copy of Kaya; one copy of Tezzeret; and an arbitrary number of Spark Doubles, all copying Kaya.  The plan is to ult Kaya several times so that I can cast-for-free Kroxa several times per turn from my graveyard (all during my upkeep) and thus pinging my opponent for 3*(emblem_count-[0|1]) damage each turn.


And a reason why it works so well is in part because an army of kayas is absolutely glorious even if you do not have the combo because it get rids of permanents super efficiently.
Tezzeret not only does have a ridiculous emblem but before that it makes tokens to tank and also can if needed draw cards.
Many of the individual cards are actually good and/or polyvalent prior to the combo being made.

----------


## enderlord99

> And a reason why it works so well is in part because an army of kayas is absolutely glorious even if you do not have the combo because it get rids of permanents super efficiently.


Preaching to the choir on that one.  Remember our previous conversation on page 3 where you said "that opponent was very persistent."?



> Many of the individual cards are actually good prior to the combo being made.


Also true.

----------


## Personification

> Believe it or not, it's actually meant as a (semi-)janky combo deck.  Generally speaking, the only cards I plan to pay any mana for whatsoever are... one copy of Kaya; one copy of Tezzeret; and an arbitrary number of Spark Doubles, all copying Kaya.  The plan is to ult Kaya several times so that I can cast-for-free Kroxa several times per turn from my graveyard (all during my upkeep) and thus pinging my opponent for 3*(emblem_count-[0|1]) damage each turn.
> 
> Basically, I have a solid plan for how to win with the deck... I'm just surprised how often I manage to pull it off.
> 
> Normally a 40% winrate is "really good" with me.


If there were room, we would need to amend the thread title to also include "and perhaps the J(oh/e)nny-est J(oh/e)nny to ever J(oh/e)nny."

----------


## enderlord99

> If there were room, we would need to amend the thread title to also include "and perhaps the J(oh/e)nny-est J(oh/e)nny to ever J(oh/e)nny."


That is almost exactly what I am, thank you for noticing.

----------


## Laughing Dog

I'm actually happy to see the No Limits event again.  (Last time was the April Fools!)
It is one of the few times I can play my Happily Ever After deck anymore.  (Teferi got banned, and I can't find a good replacement.  Is it too much to ask for a planeswalker that can give your spells flash? :Small Annoyed: )


I have also been trolling my opponents in the No Limits event with a deck composed of 17 of the Blue/White Pathways, 12 Deputy of Detentions and 11 Ixalan's Bindings.  Doesn't win that often against actually functional decks (since those usually have answers), but it has caused a few rage quits. :Small Tongue:

----------


## Fable Wright

> It is one of the few times I can play my Happily Ever After deck anymore.  (Teferi got banned, and I can't find a good replacement.  Is it too much to ask for a planeswalker that can give your spells flash?)


Yes, given that there's only seven permanents that let you cast sorceries as instants in the first place. (Vedalken Orrey, Leyline of Anticipation, Alchemist's Refuge, Emergence Zone, Tidal Barricuda, Teferi, and Hypersonic Dragon.)

----------


## enderlord99

> (Teferi got banned, and I can't find a good replacement.  Is it too much to ask for a planeswalker that can give your spells flash?)


Have you considered using a Tribal that gives things Flash instead?  There is no such thing.

----------


## Emmerlaus

Did you guys ever tried pauper EDH? Was it fun? Fast?

Im looking for feedback before making a deck. Very cheap format but Im afraid for it to die like Oathbreaker did  :Small Red Face:

----------


## Techwarrior

> I have also been trolling my opponents in the No Limits event with a deck composed of 17 of the Blue/White Pathways, 12 Deputy of Detentions and 11 Ixalan's Bindings.  Doesn't win that often against actually functional decks (since those usually have answers), but it has caused a few rage quits.


You could make a much trollier version of this by going G/W and playing enchantress effects, mana ramp, and prison cards that prevent the mass removal of all your stuff keeping their things locked away. Nevermore comes to mind. I'd look into enchantress commander lists that run stax cards for ideas of you're interested. I could probably also be talked into helping out with a decklist.

----------


## LansXero

> Did you guys ever tried pauper EDH? Was it fun? Fast?
> 
> Im looking for feedback before making a deck. Very cheap format but Im afraid for it to die like Oathbreaker did


Ask whoever you intend to play it with, not the internet.

----------


## Emmerlaus

> Ask whoever you intend to play it with, not the internet.


Im asking if anyone else played here and what were their impression of it. Why would I not ask on the internet? None that my friends knew of the format, their is nothing wrong in asking around what is attractive toward a new format.

TL-DR: dont be rude to someone who ask questions to learn about something.

----------


## LansXero

> Im asking if anyone else played here and what were their impression of it. Why would I not ask on the internet? None that my friends knew of the format, their is nothing wrong in asking around what is attractive toward a new format.
> 
> TL-DR: dont be rude to someone who ask questions to learn about something.


It might be the most fun format ever, if the subset of people you can actually meet and play with dont think so, then it wont get played. Unless you wanna play it on something like cockatrice with the people of a given community, your best bet will always be surveying the taste of those local to you since otherwise you'll build decks and get hyped and then never get someone to play it.

----------


## enderlord99

There's a song about my playstyle.

----------


## Personification

> There's a song about my playstyle.


I don't like hitting lightly described YouTube links, what's the song?

----------


## enderlord99

> I don't like hitting lightly described YouTube links, what's the song?


_Johnny_ by Neil Cicierega.  I posted it as a joke because of the title.

----------


## Personification

Oh my gods, AFR is looking awesome!

They actually made a card out of the ubiquitous 50 ft rope!
They made bards Bards!

----------


## DeTess

> Oh my gods, AFR is looking awesome!
> 
> They actually made a card out of the ubiquitous 50 ft rope!
> They made bards Bards!


I've been looking through them, and there is a lot if cool stuff in there. I might look into brewing a 'play your opponents stuff' commander deck with Xanathars, and I actually want one of each of the lands, if for no other reason than using them as a DnD one-shot generator.

----------


## LaZodiac

I, too, am very excited for this set! The flavour words idea is brilliant and I hope this sticks around.

----------


## Emmerlaus

The Tarrasque is so disappointing though  :Small Sigh:

----------


## LaZodiac

> The Tarrasque is so disappointing though


Tarrasques are, by their nature, inherently disappointing. All they are is some Big Rude Dinosaur who wants to eat the world. Ergo; massive creature that is very hard to remove. It gets across how dangerous it is, AND gets across how hard it is to target with magic. I think that's all it really needed?

----------


## Mystic Muse

> Tarrasques are, by their nature, inherently disappointing. All they are is some Big Rude Dinosaur who wants to eat the world. Ergo; massive creature that is very hard to remove. It gets across how dangerous it is, AND gets across how hard it is to target with magic. I think that's all it really needed?


They're also ridiculouslu difficult to permanently put down, so indestructible, a shuffle in effect or sonething similar would have been appropriate.

----------


## LaZodiac

> They're also ridiculouslu difficult to permanently put down, so indestructible, a shuffle in effect or sonething similar would have been appropriate.


I'll grant that. Giving it some kind of shuffle or "bottom of deck" effect on death would have been a bit more flavourful, but I think they did capture the sheer difficulty of taking it down given it's 10/10 stats and the fact that it fights someone every attack.

----------


## Emmerlaus

I would have loved the Tarrasque to cost 5GGRR instead, making it Grull colors. And with a shuffle or bottom of library effect when it does. It would have being way more fun this way and EVEN if it had Fading on top of that, it would have being fun at least!

Not its just a boring big beast. Other creatures does the same job with more interesting effects.  :Small Sigh: 

Also, the fact they put Ward 10, even as conditionnal as it is, is boring and a worst way to put Hexproof. Unless you have infinite mana, might as well just destroy it with a board wipe.

----------


## Personification

I'm with LaZodiac on this one, something to show the unkillability would be nice, but the tarrasque was never more than a sack of hit points, attack rolls, and spell resistance. Ward 10 v hexproof is probably because they are phasing out hexproof on creatures and because it at least gives some chance to get rid of it.

----------


## Dienekes

A big burly creature that has impressive stats for people who dont know what theyre looking at, but against experienced players is an over-costed, easily exploitable sack of hit points?

Looks like they got the Tarrasque perfect to me. 

But regardless, loving the set. From what Ive seen. The little flavor notes in the text of some cards seems fun.* Framing certain spells as decision points in an adventure gave me a smile. 

And the Venture mechanic seems like a fun little game within a game that wont be over powerful.

Love it all.

*Though I am positive people will complain about it though.

----------


## LaZodiac

> A big burly creature that has impressive stats for people who dont know what theyre looking at, but against experienced players is an over-costed, easily exploitable sack of hit points?
> 
> Looks like they got the Tarrasque perfect to me. 
> 
> But regardless, loving the set. From what Ive seen. The little flavor notes in the text of some cards seems fun.* Framing certain spells as decision points in an adventure gave me a smile. 
> 
> And the Venture mechanic seems like a fun little game within a game that wont be over powerful.
> 
> Love it all.
> ...


Most people seem to be focused on Hating Dungeons For No Reason, as opposed to disliking the cute flavour text stuff.

----------


## Dienekes

> Most people seem to be focused on Hating Dungeons For No Reason, as opposed to disliking the cute flavour text stuff.


Yeah, I can see why people would be annoyed by it. It's another thing that breaks some of the perceived rules of what a command zone and side board is supposed to be. And there are always going to be those folks who have a problem with the new on principle. 

Personally though, love it. It looks like exactly the kind of flavorful not all that powerful thing I wished the rest of the game was balanced around.

----------


## Binks

> Also, the fact they put Ward 10, even as conditionnal as it is, is boring and a worst way to put Hexproof. Unless you have infinite mana, might as well just destroy it with a board wipe.


As was mentioned in MR's tumblr when this same thing was asked, there are some actual interesting difference between Ward 10 and Hexproof, even without infinite mana.

Ward 10 is weak to "can't be countered" removal, which is rare and impractical to hit 10 damage with. If it fights something with a couple of points of power you have some options, like Inescapable Blaze or Heated Debate, but nothing gets to 10 un-counterable without spending at least 11 mana that I can see. There's also a few effects that give "can't be countered" to a spell that would allow regular removal to hit it, but those are also rare (4 cards, none of which are that good frankly).

On the flipside, Hexproof is weak to the 7(? did I miss any?) cards that explicitly negate or remove it, of which at least 3 (Arcane Lighthouse, Detection Tower, Glaring Spotlight) are commonly played in commander and many of the others are really good and go well in decks even if you don't expect to encounter Hexproof.

So mechanically they're much the same in a normal duel, but in commander Ward 10 is honestly way harder to deal with right now than Hexproof, which is at least mildly interesting (to me at least :) )

----------


## Amechra

> Most people seem to be focused on Hating Dungeons For No Reason, as opposed to disliking the cute flavour text stuff.


I dislike dungeons because sliding tokens around a small card in a precise way is an accessibility nightmare.

----------


## LaZodiac

> I dislike dungeons because sliding tokens around a small card in a precise way is an accessibility nightmare.


Entirely valid! You're not one of the people I was talking about.

Honestly the token that goes on the dungeon is utterly unnecessary. It's super easy to remember, so if I was gaming with someone who did have those issues I'd be fine with it.

----------


## FireJustice

Tarrasque is so worse than Ghalta, Primal Hunger or Carnage Tyrant

fightning before defenders? cool.
Ward? ook... it's not hexproof, but ok
haste? ooookay, cute. but at that cost for a 10/10 that doesnt trample

yeah..


come on

also... using the Command Zone for dungeons, seems like a programmer using variables "not in use, just relax" already in the system to save space
instead of creating new ones
why?

----------


## Androgeus

> also... using the Command Zone for dungeons, seems like a programmer using variables "not in use, just relax" already in the system to save space
> instead of creating new ones
> why?


The command zone is where things that effect the game but aren't really directly intractable go. See emblems, planes, phenomenons, schemes, conspiracies, and vanguards.

----------


## Spore

> Most people seem to be focused on Hating Dungeons For No Reason, as opposed to disliking the cute flavour text stuff.


I mean, if there were more than three?

I think WotC saw Sagas becoming such a hit, and thought to themselves: "What if the counter moved conditionally, and also wasn't counters to not stack too much power onto counter mechanics?" And the basic idea is good, but the (current and probably future) support as well as the choices for dungeons is laughably small.

----------


## LaZodiac

> I mean, if there were more than three?
> 
> I think WotC saw Sagas becoming such a hit, and thought to themselves: "What if the counter moved conditionally, and also wasn't counters to not stack too much power onto counter mechanics?" And the basic idea is good, but the (current and probably future) support as well as the choices for dungeons is laughably small.


I don't really believe that. There's a ton of design space for dungeons, mechanical and flavour wise.

----------


## Personification

> I mean, if there were more than three?
> 
> I think WotC saw Sagas becoming such a hit, and thought to themselves: "What if the counter moved conditionally, and also wasn't counters to not stack too much power onto counter mechanics?" And the basic idea is good, but the (current and probably future) support as well as the choices for dungeons is laughably small.


While Dungeons feel like Sagas, they actually play in different spaces. Sagas are linear, they cost mana, and they need to go into your deck. They don't provide branching choices and move forward predictably. Whenever you venture into the first room, you have to choose between every Dungeon, considering the choices being made at each step and how long it will take to get through. This is a huge decision point, and with each additional Dungeon the difficulty of that decision increases exponentially. I think in play you will find that even with just three dungeons you will be spoiled for choice, and while the mechanic is naturally fairly parasitic, within the set there is enough support on enough good cards that I expect it to pop up quite often in the next 15 months of standard.

----------


## LansXero

Dungeons are awfully gimmicky, and I hope they leave them as a one-of attempt and move on .

----------


## noob

> While Dungeons feel like Sagas, they actually play in different spaces. Sagas are linear, they cost mana, and they need to go into your deck. They don't provide branching choices and move forward predictably. Whenever you venture into the first room, you have to choose between every Dungeon, considering the choices being made at each step and how long it will take to get through. This is a huge decision point, and with each additional Dungeon the difficulty of that decision increases exponentially. I think in play you will find that even with just three dungeons you will be spoiled for choice, and while the mechanic is naturally fairly parasitic, within the set there is enough support on enough good cards that I expect it to pop up quite often in the next 15 months of standard.


There is a saga land(that costs the placement of a land instead of mana) which is powerful when you abuse counter removal/transfer.

----------


## Personification

> There is a saga land(that costs the placement of a land instead of mana) which is powerful when you abuse counter removal/transfer.


That doesn't change the fact that Dungeons and Sagas play in different design space and play very differently from each other. There aren't 10s of cards that say "search for a saga and pit it on the battlefield" and most Sagas won't be able to trigger several times per turn,  especially not in limited.

----------


## Androgeus

> Dungeons are awfully gimmicky, and I hope they leave them as a one-of attempt and move on .


They might not return to dungeons, but I bet well see an uptick in the number of extra game board like pieces in the future.

----------


## Spore

> That doesn't change the fact that Dungeons and Sagas play in different design space and play very differently from each other. There aren't 10s of cards that say "search for a saga and pit it on the battlefield" and most Sagas won't be able to trigger several times per turn,  especially not in limited.


I dont see dungeons triggering more than once or twice a turn.

----------


## Tvtyrant

> I dont see dungeons triggering more than once or twice a turn.


Except the Acerak + Heartless Summoning, which I think might finally make a Heartless Summoning deck work in modern.

----------


## enderlord99

I have a deck where I attempt to get an enlightened counter onto the Vecna-token.  I call it "Books are good for you."

----------


## Dienekes

Mine is getting the Enlightened counter on Faceless Haven and then just laughing.

----------


## enderlord99

> Mine is getting the Enlightened counter on Faceless Haven and then just laughing.


I know about that combo, which is why I added more land-destruction to Professor Google.

----------


## Dienekes

> I know about that combo, which is why I added more land-destruction to Professor Google.


Yeah, not a bad idea if a deck can fit it in.

Personal plan is to play it once or twice for amusement before ditching it.

Honestly, it seems a pretty boring way to win, that will work best when paired with a control deck, i.e. the most boring way to play the game. So not for me. But, I am amused by the combo.

----------


## Laughing Dog

So I found an amusing little combo (which, admittedly has been around since Kaldheim came out).  
Fireblade Charger + Sword of the Realm.  For three mana, you can repeatedly swing with  a 3/1 that can kill most things that don't have a 7 butt or more.  It gets more absurd when you have Bruenor Battlehammer, Fighter class, and other random equipment with equip costs of 2 or less (or greater, assuming multiple Fighter classes.)  I'm contemplating making a historic deck based around the combo, but I'm having trouble deciding if I want to stick to Boros (for efficiency) or go Mardu (for extra creatures dying/leaving the grave support).

----------


## enderlord99

I just reached diamond for the first time ever.

----------


## Laughing Dog

So I feel bad for my opponent in my most recent game.  I was playing a red Goblin Deck for the Standard 2022 format, turn three drop relic robber, swing and hit.  My opponent drops that minotaur warrior that you have to kick to keep, swings.  Turns 4 and 5 I top draw two more relic robbers.  On my opponent's turn 5 there are 6 of those Goblin construct token on the field and my opponent has 4 life left at the beginning of the upkeep.

----------


## enderlord99

Do non-native triggered abilities get added to Vecna if one of his components had them from an aura or similar, or does he only ever get the ones printed on the cards?

----------


## Androgeus

> Do non-native triggered abilities get added to Vecna if one of his components had them from an aura or similar, or does he only ever get the ones printed on the cards?


Book of Vile Darkness looks at the cards as they are in exile. Most of the time this means you just get the printed triggered abilities of Eye and Hand of Vecna. 

If you want different abilities on Vecna, youll need to turn something else (with a triggered ability) in to a hand/eye of Vecna

----------


## enderlord99

What would be a reasonable mana-cost for "Each opponent discards a card, then mills 3 cards, then exiles 5 cards at random from their graveyard. You draw 2 cards." on a sorcery?

----------


## Tvtyrant

> What would be a reasonable mana-cost for "Each opponent discards a card, then mills 3 cards, then exiles 5 cards at random from their graveyard. You draw 2 cards." on a sorcery?


First effect is 2 mana, second effect is 1 mana, third effect is 1 mana, third effect is 3. That brings it up to 7, I would probably push that down to 6.

----------


## enderlord99

> First effect is 2 mana


If "each opponent discards a card" is generally worth 2 mana, then Vicious Rumors must be even more pushed than I thought!

...

Your final assessment of "6 total mana" matches my original intuition for what my card should cost, though.

----------


## Tvtyrant

> If "each opponent discards a card" is generally worth 2 mana, then Vicious Rumors must be even more pushed than I thought!
> 
> ...
> 
> Your final assessment of "6 total mana" matches my original intuition for what my card should cost, though.


I was using burglar rat as my basis, which is either slighly pushed or slightly underpowered. Vicious Rumors suggests slightly underpowered then, so 6 is a good approximation or  if you want it to be a pushed card.

----------


## Techwarrior

In that vein, this is basically Vicious Rumors + Divination. I would almost certainly say this effect is UB, with a generic mana component to bump it up to a fair total mana cost. 

More interesting is that "exile 5 cards at random from your graveyard" portion. This is almost certainly not worth retaining as is. What if I have half my Yorion deck in my yard? Can you imagine trying to randomly generate 1-40, then 1-39, etc in a live event? No thank you. Imo, this should just be "exile 5 cards from their graveyard." 

Divination plus Vicious Rumors would be UB2. I'd say this is slightly more powerful than just that though. UB3 is almost certainly fair. 

I think it's more interesting to ask why you need this effect explicitly?

----------


## enderlord99

> In that vein, this is basically Vicious Rumors + Divination. I would almost certainly say this effect is UB, with a generic mana component to bump it up to a fair total mana cost. 
> 
> More interesting is that "exile 5 cards at random from your graveyard" portion. This is almost certainly not worth retaining as is. What if I have half my Yorion deck in my yard? Can you imagine trying to randomly generate 1-40, then 1-39, etc in a live event? No thank you. Imo, this should just be "exile 5 cards from their graveyard." 
> 
> Divination plus Vicious Rumors would be UB2. I'd say this is slightly more powerful than just that though. UB3 is almost certainly fair. 
> 
> I think it's more interesting to ask why you need this effect explicitly?


The basic concept is "A spell that makes each opponent discard, and which also nets you +1 card in hand.  Then, add additional effects that are (theoretically) just barely enough to prevent it from ever accidentally aiding an opponent (as unlikely as that would be in the first place)"

If an opponent is running Mill or pure Control, you put made yourself two cards closer to decking out... so, it also makes them _three_ cards closer.
If an opponent is running Reanimator or Dredge, you just put four things into a potential resource-pool for them... so, it also takes _five_ out.

Yeah, it's unlikely to matter... but that's kinda the point; it's all about being thorough with your sabotage.  So yes: it's very much meant as a UB card.

I agree that letting the caster choose is probably a better idea than randomizing it, for the reason you mentioned.

----------


## Techwarrior

> The basic concept is "A spell that makes each opponent discard, and which also nets you +1 card in hand.  Then, add additional effects that are (theoretically) just barely enough to prevent it from ever accidentally aiding an opponent (as unlikely as that would be in the first place)"
> 
> If an opponent is running Mill or pure Control, you put made yourself two cards closer to decking out... so, it also makes them _three_ cards closer.
> If an opponent is running Reanimator or Dredge, you just put four things into a potential resource-pool for them... so, it also takes _five_ out.
> 
> Yeah, it's unlikely to matter... but that's kinda the point; it's all about being thorough with your sabotage.  So yes: it's very much meant as a UB card.
> 
> I agree that letting the caster choose is probably a better idea than randomizing it, for the reason you mentioned.


With this as the stated goal, it would be much cleaner for it to have your opponent just exile all the cards. 

New text would be:
---
Target opponent exiles one card from their hand, then exiles the top three cards of their library. 

You draw two cards. 
---
This is still probably worth UB3.

----------


## enderlord99

> With this as the stated goal, it would be much cleaner for it to have your opponent just exile all the cards. 
> 
> New text would be:
> ---
> Target*Each* opponent exiles one card from their hand, then exiles the top three cards of their library. 
> 
> You draw two cards. 
> ---
> This is still probably worth UB3.


Your redesign makes a lot of sense, but I felt it necessary to revert a small part of it (reflected in quote)

I agree that 3UB sounds about right.

----------


## mythmonster2

So, we're getting our first digital-only cards on Arena for Historic, with the upcoming Jumpstart: Historic Masters. This includes perpetually changing a card's stats, no matter what zone it's in, as well as "Seek", which is kind of a random tutor for a card in your deck that meets a certain criteria (like Seeking a nonland with mana value 2 or less). I'm down for those; Eternal was a digital card game that made great use of its digital environment and it had some effects similar to those. Unfortunately, there are some random cards, including a new Davriel planeswalker.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

So my circle is now interested in making proxy Commander decks, and I'm coming to you guys for help.

My brother-in-law is using an Atraxa deck (Proliferate, uses both superfriends and infect), while my wife is playing a proxy version of her old green Kamahl, Heart of Krosa deck.

The Atraxa deck generally gets us to about 5 poison counters each around turn 5, due to just being able to disable our flying blockers (if we have any), while the Kamahl deck manages to pull out about 20 mana around turn 5 between Caged Sun and Gaea's Cradle, and wipes us with a Genesis Wave or a Howl of the Nightpack

The tricky part is, I'm kinda picky when it comes to playing MTG.  I want to avoid playing something that isn't very interactive with my opponents.  Normally, this means I'd default to some kind of Blue deck, but both of my opponents don't find blue very fun to play against, and I'm worried I'd burn out too quickly trying to counter both of their best cards all of the time.

I've tried a Feather, The Redeemed deck that focused on buffing or bouncing my creatures and spamming instants/sorceries for combo generators.  It was really fun and had a lot of the gameplay mechanics I was interested in, but it doesn't do anything against either of these kinds of decks and isn't nearly on that same level of power.

So what's a strong, interactive deck?  I'm not too interested in Group Hug options, but that might change if you think they'd be a good fit.

Sorry for the tall order. I know that "Interactive" and "Powerful" are pretty mutually exclusive in MTG, so I am really looking forward to your guys' solutions.

----------


## Eurus

> So my circle is now interested in making proxy Commander decks, and I'm coming to you guys for help.
> 
> My brother-in-law is using an Atraxa deck (Proliferate, uses both superfriends and infect), while my wife is playing a proxy version of her old green Kamahl, Heart of Krosa deck.
> 
> The Atraxa deck generally gets us to about 5 poison counters each around turn 5, due to just being able to disable our flying blockers (if we have any), while the Kamahl deck manages to pull out about 20 mana around turn 5 between Caged Sun and Gaea's Cradle, and wipes us with a Genesis Wave or a Howl of the Nightpack
> 
> The tricky part is, I'm kinda picky when it comes to playing MTG.  I want to avoid playing something that isn't very interactive with my opponents.  Normally, this means I'd default to some kind of Blue deck, but both of my opponents don't find blue very fun to play against, and I'm worried I'd burn out too quickly trying to counter both of their best cards all of the time.
> 
> I've tried a Feather, The Redeemed deck that focused on buffing or bouncing my creatures and spamming instants/sorceries for combo generators.  It was really fun and had a lot of the gameplay mechanics I was interested in, but it doesn't do anything against either of these kinds of decks and isn't nearly on that same level of power.
> ...


Can you clarify what you mean by "interactive" a bit? People tend to use that word in a few different ways...

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> Can you clarify what you mean by "interactive" a bit? People tend to use that word in a few different ways...


Something a bit less solitaire-like.

I usually don't like MTG all that much, as many of the most powerful cards and combos work without really involving your opponents or completely remove their ability to respond.  For instance, an infinite damage generator isn't about removing key creatures from the board, but is instead about dealing so much damage that your opponent can't do anything about it.

It can be a bit like solitaire sometimes, with players trying to race towards the finish.

But I'm more interested in Chess.  Your play effects what I do, my play effects what you do.  That kinda stuff.  

That's why I originally went with Feather.  Since he synergizes with spells that target my creatures, and what spells I am recycling is clearly telegraphed, my opponents are constantly having to guess what tools I can pull out to solve a problem while also watching my mana.  

The more I play, the more interesting the game gets. I want to avoid the situation where a player just recognizes that there is nothing they can do that can matter, and that can happen a lot at high level play.

Which is my dilemma.  How do I balance power with fun?

----------


## noob

> Something a bit less solitaire-like.
> 
> I usually don't like MTG all that much, as many of the most powerful cards and combos work without really involving your opponents or completely remove their ability to respond.  For instance, an infinite damage generator isn't about removing key creatures from the board, but is instead about dealing so much damage that your opponent can't do anything about it.
> 
> It can be a bit like solitaire sometimes, with players trying to race towards the finish.
> 
> But I'm more interested in Chess.  Your play effects what I do, my play effects what you do.  That kinda stuff.  
> 
> That's why I originally went with Feather.  Since he synergizes with spells that target my creatures, and what spells I am recycling is clearly telegraphed, my opponents are constantly having to guess what tools I can pull out to solve a problem while also watching my mana.  
> ...


Control with denial and counterspells do interaction it is just interaction the opponent hates because you try to make them play no game using spells, abilities and cards to stop them from playing while you play the denial game that have actions depending on what the opponent does.
There is also tempo decks: you try to delay how fast the opponent deck kills you while you kill them.

----------


## Techwarrior

How interested in the Feather archetype were you? I could share my list if you're just looking for something a bit more interactive. My version revolves around putting Feather and Sunforger into play and then controlling the game that way until you can kill people.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> How interested in the Feather archetype were you? I could share my list if you're just looking for something a bit more interactive. My version revolves around putting Feather and Sunforger into play and then controlling the game that way until you can kill people.


Considered that, I just don't know what kind of tools I could come up with to deal with insane levels of ramp or an unlockable infect/proliferate deck.

Generally, what I do is go onto EDH Rec and just pick the cards with the most deck rate or synergy percentage and then modify it from there (Sunforger was definitely a must-have).  The deck works fine, it's just at a "normal" power level and is best designed to deal with countering creature removal...which neither of my opponents care about.  It's supposed to leverage things like Guttersnipe and Aria of Flame, it just can't last long enough against this competition.  Closest I've gotten is getting one player to 14 HP by having both on the board.




> Control with denial and counterspells do interaction it is just interaction the opponent hates because you try to make them play no game using spells, abilities and cards to stop them from playing while you play the denial game that have actions depending on what the opponent does.
> There is also tempo decks: you try to delay how fast the opponent deck kills you while you kill them.


I absolutely do agree.  I see counters as a very interactive form of gameplay, it just doesn't let them have the fun that they're looking forward to.  They don't care about how fair it is, just as long as they can attempt the things that their decks were made to do.

I think I might just have to tell them to suck it up and play something with counters, I just have a really hard time figuring out how to build a deck that uses counters while still not being oppressive and having a decent win condition.

Niv Mizzets come to mind, I just don't think I'll ever have enough time to deal the damage I'd need to, as most games end between them around turn 6.  Got any suggestions on key Tempo cards?

Really appreciate the responses, though!

----------


## Techwarrior

Ramp and Atraxa lists usually still have a must answer effect or permanent. You'd be surprised what a Naturalize here or a Path there will do to those decks. The archetype itself isn't limited to playing lower power levels, it just doesn't offer much for competitive. If you'd like to post your list, I'm sure we could help you to bring it up a bit. It might also help if we knew how you were losing the game. 

My guess from what you've said thus far is that your Feather list is a collection of cards that interact with Feather, some ramp, some threats, and some removal, but your list doesn't internally synergise well, doesn't construct an end game engine, and you don't have enough card draw. You probably are finding yourself missing land 4, castimg Swords on something, playing a Guttersnipe, and then dying to XYZ.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> Ramp and Atraxa lists usually still have a must answer effect or permanent. You'd be surprised what a Naturalize here or a Path there will do to those decks. The archetype itself isn't limited to playing lower power levels, it just doesn't offer much for competitive. If you'd like to post your list, I'm sure we could help you to bring it up a bit. It might also help if we knew how you were losing the game. 
> 
> My guess from what you've said thus far is that your Feather list is a collection of cards that interact with Feather, some ramp, some threats, and some removal, but your list doesn't internally synergise well, doesn't construct an end game engine, and you don't have enough card draw. You probably are finding yourself missing land 4, castimg Swords on something, playing a Guttersnipe, and then dying to XYZ.


It used things like Smothering Tithe, Land Tax, or Birgi to fuel a ton of mana as needed, and then I just played instants on my own creatures every turn that would let me draw cards (Expedite, Defiant Strike, etc) which return to my hand at the start of the next player's turn.  Then it'd use things like Aria of Flame, Aetherflux Reservoir, or even a horde of monks from Monastery Mentor to overwhelm the enemy.

Although I realize that stuff like Vandalblast or Aura of Silence can probably go a long way.

Generally, the way I end up losing is either because the Atraxa deck ends up landing a single infect (he has several unblockable creatures and instant effects), followed by proliferating in various ways, or the Kamahl deck ends up with an overwhelming force sooner than I can deal with (Doubling Season + Howl of the Nightpack + Kamahl's Overrun-on-a-stick = a lot of damage).

----------


## Laughing Dog

Regarding dealing with infect with white being one of your colors:  Solemnity neuters infect quite effectively.  If you can also get Phyrexian Unlife on board and some way to protect both enchantments, you can proceed to quit caring about your opponents killing you.  (Via life loss or poison counters anyways.  Other methods are fair game.)

----------


## Eurus

> It used things like Smothering Tithe, Land Tax, or Birgi to fuel a ton of mana as needed, and then I just played instants on my own creatures every turn that would let me draw cards (Expedite, Defiant Strike, etc) which return to my hand at the start of the next player's turn.  Then it'd use things like Aria of Flame, Aetherflux Reservoir, or even a horde of monks from Monastery Mentor to overwhelm the enemy.
> 
> Although I realize that stuff like Vandalblast or Aura of Silence can probably go a long way.
> 
> Generally, the way I end up losing is either because the Atraxa deck ends up landing a single infect (he has several unblockable creatures and instant effects), followed by proliferating in various ways, or the Kamahl deck ends up with an overwhelming force sooner than I can deal with (Doubling Season + Howl of the Nightpack + Kamahl's Overrun-on-a-stick = a lot of damage).


TBH, it sounds like you're going to have a rough time because you're giving yourself restrictions that your opponents don't have. Proliferate infect is, by design, very hard to interact with, and ramp can be a pretty "solitaire" deck archetype, your opponent either has a board wipe on the right turn or they don't and die.

You could play counterspells, or discard, or stax, or land destruction, or just a ton of removal, but if your goal is to play a non-combo (so your opponents can interact with it) non-control (so that your opponents can still play cards) deck that can fight an aggressive ramp deck and a value-engine proliferate and infect deck, you don't have a whole lot of options.

You could try to be more aggressive than they are, maybe? Not easy to pull off in EDH, but there are some pretty effective Voltron decks that can beat people to death quickly. It's definitely interactive since you're relying on dropping permanents and attacking with creatures, and it tends to punish decks that don't pack removal reasonably well if it's aggressive enough.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> TBH, it sounds like you're going to have a rough time because you're giving yourself restrictions that your opponents don't have. Proliferate infect is, by design, very hard to interact with, and ramp can be a pretty "solitaire" deck archetype, your opponent either has a board wipe on the right turn or they don't and die.
> 
> You could play counterspells, or discard, or stax, or land destruction, or just a ton of removal, but if your goal is to play a non-combo (so your opponents can interact with it) non-control (so that your opponents can still play cards) deck that can fight an aggressive ramp deck and a value-engine proliferate and infect deck, you don't have a whole lot of options.
> 
> You could try to be more aggressive than they are, maybe? Not easy to pull off in EDH, but there are some pretty effective Voltron decks that can beat people to death quickly. It's definitely interactive since you're relying on dropping permanents and attacking with creatures, and it tends to punish decks that don't pack removal reasonably well if it's aggressive enough.


My BiL (the Atraxa deck) recommend I focus on making a deck that functioned on its own, one that doesn't necessarily _need_ the commander to work properly, which is good advice.  Feather's cheap to play, which makes building a deck around him fairly easy, but it barely functions without him.

I think I might go with a Breya or Zur deck and just force them to take on more control.  There are a number of powerful combos with both (Zur can pull both Phyrexian Unlife and Solemnity to become immortal by about turn 5, Breya has several ways of getting infinite mana or damage).  Neither of them really bother trying to build decks that consider the opponent, so maybe I should just not bother trying to play fair until they do.  It certainly hasn't been doing me any favors so far.

As an aside, why the hell did WOTC think that Infect was better than Wither?  I am surprised by the shear number of infect-support cards that Atraxa deck is able to pull out regularly, which seems really odd for how unfun it is to play against.  Wither, on the other hand, just makes me reconsider how I treat midgame combat.   In the last game, he didn't even have to hit me; simply having a specific creature on the board and summoning another creature with infect was enough to put an infect counter on a player.

----------


## Amechra

First off, because it bugs me... Feather is a lady. 99.9% of angels in Magic are female (the exceptions being a couple cards in Planar Chaos and some of the angels in AFR).

Also, I hate to tell you this, but your wife and BiL aren't going to play fair unless you _make them_. So make them. I'm _pretty sure_ you can build a Feather version of Death & Taxes...

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> First off, because it bugs me... Feather is a lady. 99.9% of angels in Magic are female (the exceptions being a couple cards in Planar Chaos and some of the angels in AFR).


I thought she was, but the face lookmasculine with a normal card's view, and even zoomed in it looks really...odd.

----------


## Androgeus

> First off, because it bugs me... Feather is a lady. 99.9% of angels in Magic are female (the exceptions being a couple cards in Planar Chaos and some of the angels in AFR).


To go one further, Im fairly sure all Boros angels are copies of Razia.

----------


## Fable Wright

> As an aside, why the hell did WOTC think that Infect was better than Wither?  I am surprised by the shear number of infect-support cards that Atraxa deck is able to pull out regularly, which seems really odd for how unfun it is to play against.  Wither, on the other hand, just makes me reconsider how I treat midgame combat.   In the last game, he didn't even have to hit me; simply having a specific creature on the board and summoning another creature with infect was enough to put an infect counter on a player.


What do you mean by 'better'? The mechanic was designed to be tricky to play against and feel inevitable. No way to undo it, every proliferate card brings you one step closer to death. This was back in '10 and planned earlier, before Commander was officially supported by WotC and way before any thought to it was involved in the planning process, so competitive was what was being designed forin which playing a 4 mana 3/2 and then another Infect creature _if_ it survived was horribly inefficient in the format. 

The problem is that Commander didn't decide to go up to 20 poison counters to kill. That's honestly all there is to it. In no situation should Scion of the Ur-Dragon be able to one-hit-kill someone with Skithiryx and fire-breathing without getting an absurd amount of mana.

----------


## Mystic Muse

> As an aside, why the hell did WOTC think that Infect was better than Wither?  I am surprised by the shear number of infect-support cards that Atraxa deck is able to pull out regularly, which seems really odd for how unfun it is to play against.  Wither, on the other hand, just makes me reconsider how I treat midgame combat.   In the last game, he didn't even have to hit me; simply having a specific creature on the board and summoning another creature with infect was enough to put an infect counter on a player.


It's a pet mechanic of Mark Rosewater. 

My Atraxa is my favorite deck to play, period, but it has no infect at all. It does have combos, and planeswalkers of course. 

Yawgmoth is my infect deck, and one of my "fun is a zero-sum game" decks. I have a range of competitiveness among my decks though, so a few are "try to win as quickly as possible" a few are "beer and pretzels" style, and a few in-between.

----------


## Techwarrior

> The problem is that Commander didn't decide to go up to 20 poison counters to kill. That's honestly all there is to it. In no situation should Scion of the Ur-Dragon be able to one-hit-kill someone with Skithiryx and fire-breathing without getting an absurd amount of mana.


If a 5 mana commander without haste comes onto the table, you get to swing it at someone, you activate a 2 mana ability,  and you use another card on it... Honestly "a player dies through combat damage" doesn't sound like the most unrealistic outcome from that. I could come up with plenty of one card combos that kill people at those cmc values if need be. 

The only times I've ever had problems with infect is in decks like Saskia the Unyielding where you can get infected without being able to interact with it. Infect creatures are inefficient by nature and usually are easy to remove. 20 infect counters really just kills infect's ability to pressure players and effectively remove it as a mechanic. 

Play some removal and early blockers and this isn't a problem. If you play decks that have an ideal curve of Rampant Growth into Harmonize into Zendikar Resurgent you absolutely deserve to die to infect.

----------


## Fable Wright

> If a 5 mana commander without haste comes onto the table, you get to swing it at someone, you activate a 2 mana ability,  and you use another card on it... Honestly "a player dies through combat damage" doesn't sound like the most unrealistic outcome from that. I could come up with plenty of one card combos that kill people at those cmc values if need be.


It's more "Flash Scion in at opponent's EoT, then pay 4 mana and delete a player from the game" that's the issue. But no, you're right, a double striking dragon would almost as easily kill through Commander Damage.

----------


## Techwarrior

> It's more "Flash Scion in at opponent's EoT, then pay 4 mana and delete a player from the game" that's the issue. But no, you're right, a double striking dragon would almost as easily kill through Commander Damage.


Sure, but any way I can think of to give flash to a creature is going to be on-board as a permanent that you can interact with, and if your opponent passes with wubrg up and a flash effect in play you have to assume that they'll at least spend their mana on their commander. 

It's also not "then pay 4 mana." You spend 2 to make it skittles, and then you have to find a way to give it +6 power. Your specific example was fire breathing, which would require six red pips for a total of eight mana. 13 mana over two turns with a flash effect is entirely reasonable IMO since this effect only kills one player and is currently stopped by any way to interact with a flying attacker dealing combat damage. There's obviously other cards that would require less mana, but the point is still that this scenario requires ~10 mana over two turns with multiple card effects in play (skittles in deck, flash effect in play, pump available).

----------


## enderlord99

Here's some trivia that may or may not be useful:

Leeches is legal in Commander.

EDIT:  I know Golgari Death-Swarm is a joke card, but a (hypothetical) effective-reprint of it with the name "Serra Watcher" and the typeline "Creature - Demon Hydra" would be really cool.  Maybe some flavor-text about how while one head is devouring an intruder (to this alternate version of Serra's realm) the rest are already searching for its _next_ meal.

----------


## Fable Wright

> Sure, but any way I can think of to give flash to a creature is going to be on-board as a permanent that you can interact with, and if your opponent passes with wubrg up and a flash effect in play you have to assume that they'll at least spend their mana on their commander. 
> 
> It's also not "then pay 4 mana." You spend 2 to make it skittles, and then you have to find a way to give it +6 power. Your specific example was fire breathing, which would require six red pips for a total of eight mana. 13 mana over two turns with a flash effect is entirely reasonable IMO since this effect only kills one player and is currently stopped by any way to interact with a flying attacker dealing combat damage. There's obviously other cards that would require less mana, but the point is still that this scenario requires ~10 mana over two turns with multiple card effects in play (skittles in deck, flash effect in play, pump available).


It is 'pay 4 mana and 12 life', you're correct. The combo endemic to Scion of the Ur-Dragon decks has been to get Scion in play; pay 2 to put the transformation to Skittles on the stack; and then 2 to put the transformation to Moltensteel Dragon on the stack. Moltensteel resolves, you pay 12 life for +6/+0 with the Skittles transformation still on the stack, then let the Skittles transformation resolve, giving you a 10/4 flying Infect dragon for a total of 4 mana. 

The scenario requires 9 mana over two turns (so, you know, can be pulled off turn 4/turn 5 with even a bit of ramp) and one permanent in play, to make someone instantly lose the game. Again, granted, you could turn Scion into Dragon Tyrant with Phyrexian Firebreathing and 10 life with the same strategy to instantly kill a player with Commander damage. 

Both these are unfun to play against because the instant-kill comes at Instant speed during the combat step. It's a 4/4 Scion swinging at you. If you cast a kill spell, it could turn into a Shroud dragon, or Yosei to lock someone out for a turn. If you chump block it, could make it Dragon Tyrant for that trample/double strike, or Hellkite Overlord to steal all your artifacts, or O-Kagachi to exile something, or Wasitora for forcing a sacrifice.

----------


## Techwarrior

At this point we're playing schrodinger's deck. A deck capable of doing that should be a deck that you're playing at a particular kind of table where these shenanigans keep you apace with the rest of that table. You shouldn't bring Bear Force One to a table with a Zur, this deck, or another good example in the same power range for instance. If you aren't a fan of these styles, don't play in that pod, but instead at a pod that's more to your preferred style. 

Commander's a difficult format to discuss because of this. Realistically it's almost like 5 or six formats with one ruleset, but everybody has their own ban list for it and we just call it all Commander.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> At this point we're playing schrodinger's deck. A deck capable of doing that should be a deck that you're playing at a particular kind of table where these shenanigans keep you apace with the rest of that table. You shouldn't bring Bear Force One to a table with a Zur, this deck, or another good example in the same power range for instance. If you aren't a fan of these styles, don't play in that pod, but instead at a pod that's more to your preferred style. 
> 
> Commander's a difficult format to discuss because of this. Realistically it's almost like 5 or six formats with one ruleset, but everybody has their own ban list for it and we just call it all Commander.


If it were up to me, all I'd be playing is Conspiracy drafts or Monarch games all day e'rrday.

But sometimes you gotta make lemonade, you know?  My hope is that I'll just grind them into dust enough to understand what I mean that playing at a lower level is fun.  Until then, onto the thrashing!

I'm totally banking on the fact that his Atraxa deck has too much focused on Infect to have enough control to deal with me (all I've seen so far in his deck for control are low-level counters) and I know my wife doesn't put much faith in control effects (her green deck has like Krosan Grip and one other Enchantment/Artifact destruction card).

  So the strategy is for Solemnity + Phyrexian Unlife to stall long enough until I manage to tutor up one of the 10 ways I can win by decking myself.  I have like 3 different ways to copy an enchantment on the board that are all 3 cost, so I'm not too worried about losing one of my two immortality combo cards.  And if decking myself fails somehow, pillowfort up and use stuff like Epherian Armor to just kill them with a flying commander.

Yeah, it's rude, but losing has lost its appeal for the time being.

----------


## Tvtyrant

> It is 'pay 4 mana and 12 life', you're correct. The combo endemic to Scion of the Ur-Dragon decks has been to get Scion in play; pay 2 to put the transformation to Skittles on the stack; and then 2 to put the transformation to Moltensteel Dragon on the stack. Moltensteel resolves, you pay 12 life for +6/+0 with the Skittles transformation still on the stack, then let the Skittles transformation resolve, giving you a 10/4 flying Infect dragon for a total of 4 mana. 
> 
> The scenario requires 9 mana over two turns (so, you know, can be pulled off turn 4/turn 5 with even a bit of ramp) and one permanent in play, to make someone instantly lose the game. Again, granted, you could turn Scion into Dragon Tyrant with Phyrexian Firebreathing and 10 life with the same strategy to instantly kill a player with Commander damage. 
> 
> Both these are unfun to play against because the instant-kill comes at Instant speed during the combat step. It's a 4/4 Scion swinging at you. If you cast a kill spell, it could turn into a Shroud dragon, or Yosei to lock someone out for a turn. If you chump block it, could make it Dragon Tyrant for that trample/double strike, or Hellkite Overlord to steal all your artifacts, or O-Kagachi to exile something, or Wasitora for forcing a sacrifice.


I don't know if "stopped by fog" combos are really that bad, but if this is it is because of Scion not infect. You even state that it kills without skittles, so it seems to me that it is turning into a bunch of things a turn that is the problem.

----------


## Fable Wright

> I don't know if "stopped by fog" combos are really that bad, but if this is it is because of Scion not infect. You even state that it kills without skittles, so it seems to me that it is turning into a bunch of things a turn that is the problem.


Yes. Skittles has been my primary experience with Infect as a frustrating mechanic due to a friend using it to kill with Scion very regularly. I realized here that I was arguing on incorrect bases and acknowledging that:




> If a 5 mana commander without haste comes onto the table, you get to swing it at someone, you activate a 2 mana ability,  and you use another card on it... Honestly "a player dies through combat damage" doesn't sound like the most unrealistic outcome from that. I could come up with plenty of one card combos that kill people at those cmc values if need be.





> It's more "Flash Scion in at opponent's EoT, then pay 4 mana and delete a player from the game" that's the issue. *But no, you're right, a double striking dragon would almost as easily kill through Commander Damage*.


I used a poor example, acknowledged that, and was going to drop it, but Techwarrior misrepresented how the combo worked, and I wished to clarify both (1) why I specified 4 mana for a kill and (2) why this is more frustrating to deal with than a generic flying commander (because all the Scion decks I've seen are extremely resilient in resolving their combos).

----------


## Tvtyrant

> Yes. Skittles has been my primary experience with Infect as a frustrating mechanic due to a friend using it to kill with Scion very regularly. I realized here that I was arguing on incorrect bases and acknowledging that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used a poor example, acknowledged that, and was going to drop it, but Techwarrior misrepresented how the combo worked, and I wished to clarify both (1) why I specified 4 mana for a kill and (2) why this is more frustrating to deal with than a generic flying commander (because all the Scion decks I've seen are extremely resilient in resolving their combos).


Yeah I think that combo would be unfun for me as well. 

Fynn the Fangbearer too. He' s so not fun to play against. "Oh boy your low to the ground creatures with deathtouch have to be blocked or I lose."

----------


## unseenmage

> Yeah I think that combo would be unfun for me as well. 
> 
> Fynn the Fangbearer too. He' s so not fun to play against. "Oh boy your low to the ground creatures with deathtouch have to be blocked or I lose."


Having had to sell my collection some years ago I am slowly rebuilding. 

That said building Fynn was cheap. Turns out it was cheap in more ways than one. 
I still have it for now because we drag it out to play it for the memes but it's on our soft ban list with Sram and Baral.

----------


## Spore

Infect is like that.

----------


## Personification

So, looking at Innistrad: Crimson Vow sneak peaks, it looks like Sorin Markov and Olivia Voldaren are getting married.

I, for one, wish those crazy kids the best, and I'm glad that Sorin is finally recovering from the emotional toll of the tragic loss of his daughter. 

Also, there is a woman with a moon motif on the Midnight Hunt collector booster box, and despite the fact that, with Avacyn gone, "just the moon" is one of the top three religions on Innistrad and the set is literally about werewolves, you can't convince me that it isn't Emrakul.

----------


## Androgeus

> So, looking at Innistrad: Crimson Vow sneak peaks, it looks like Sorin Markov and Olivia Voldaren are getting married.


Is this from the collector booster art work? I thought that looked more like Edgar Markov than Sorin.

----------


## Personification

It looks like Sorin to me, and I think that they confirmed it depicted him. That still doesn't mean that he's the groom, but saying as he is on the boxes and there is a piece of art depicting what appears to be a very nice wedding invitation with an M overlayed with a V it seems likely.

----------


## enderlord99

> My opponent just tried to exile-mill me with Ulamog, and they did indeed exile basically my entire library, including my single copy of Ormos, Archive Keeper...
> 
> ...after I had already Ult-ed the Kaldheim version of Kaya.  Twice.


I still consider this my funniest victory so far.

----------


## Androgeus

> there is a piece of art depicting what appears to be a very nice wedding invitation with an M overlayed with a V it seems likely.


Ill give the booster key art being Sorin does tip things in his favour (especially with the set booster being Olivia), but I dont think this art favours either of us as Sorin and Edgar share a surname.

----------


## Personification

> Ill give the booster key art being Sorin does tip things in his favour (especially with the set booster being Olivia), but I dont think this art favours either of us as Sorin and Edgar share a surname.


That bit was just the point that a Markov is getting married and not, say, a Stromkirk.

----------


## Techwarrior

I'm going to have to order about a dozen of the new black removal spell. It's easily the best one that's been printed since Fatal Push. 

*Spoiler: Infernal Grasp*
Show

1B 
Instant 
Destroy target creature. You lose 2 life. 
 

You'll absolutely need to be careful of the card's drawback, but putting a little life gain in your deck isn't a bad thing anyway in most cases.

----------


## Androgeus

> You'll absolutely need to be careful of the card's drawback, but putting a little life gain in your deck isn't a bad thing anyway in most cases.


Pfft I've been play Aftershock  for years, 2 life is nothing.

----------


## Personification

> Pfft I've been play Aftershock  for years, 2 life is nothing.


 :Small Eek:  But........... 
...
...
...
...
... WHY?! :Small Eek:

----------


## Androgeus

> But........... 
> ...
> ...
> ...
> ...
> ... WHY?!


Because destroy target creature is pretty good in mono red?

----------


## Techwarrior

> Because destroy target creature is pretty good in mono red?


Might I suggest using burn spells (Roast), Chaos Warp, or a splash color? 4 mana sorcery and bolting yourself for that is rough.

----------


## noob

> Might I suggest using burn spells (Roast), Chaos Warp, or a splash color? 4 mana sorcery and bolting yourself for that is rough.


The advantage of that 4 mana spell is its polyvalence: it destroys either a terrain or a creature or an artifact.
The total mana and health cost means it will not be used much outside of pauper especially since it is not allowed in modern.

----------


## Androgeus

> Might I suggest using burn spells (Roast), Chaos Warp, or a splash color? 4 mana sorcery and bolting yourself for that is rough.


Its Norin commander deck. Just being able to kill a creature is nice. With 40 life, bolting oneself is not a big issue. (I obviously already run chaos warp)

----------


## enderlord99

I just did something nice for an opponent (specifically, I ramped them by targeting their Cascading Cataracts with my Field of Ruin (though I only did so because I needed to fix a color and they had no other nonbasics to target)) and then said "nice" because I wanted them to thank me.  They said "oops" instead, which seems *really* rude TBH.  I mean, they might have thought I'd made a legitimate mistake, but the fact that "thanks!" was available when they opened the emote-menu should have clued them in.

----------


## Spore

> I  said "nice" because I wanted them to thank me.


Your opponent is under no obligation to thank you for anything.

----------


## enderlord99

> Your opponent is under no obligation to thank you for anything.


Where did I imply that it was an "obligation"?

The rude part wasn't "not saying 'thanks'"; it was "saying 'oops' aggressively" and I'm not even particularly mad about it; I just wanted to tell a funny (and true) story.

----------


## Emmerlaus

In the EDH format, what is the best answer, strategy or Commander against fast aggro deck?  :Small Confused:

----------


## Tvtyrant

> In the EDH format, what is the best answer, strategy or Commander against fast aggro deck?


Faster combo deck probably.

----------


## LansXero

1 vs 1 ? Yeah, faster autowin deck or opressive control deck and let them run out of fuel

Multiplayer? table politics.

----------


## Techwarrior

Blockers are a big thing against edh aggro decks. Removal and a 2/4 is much better then 2 removal spells if there's an aggro deck running around in a lot of cases. 

Table politics also goes a long way, but that requires proper threat assessment. Aggro decks in commander are realistically a variant of combo. A 2/1 takes too long to do anything and is outclassed immediately. You need something like a flyer that you give infect and a power boost, or a bunch of elves/tokens with an overrun effect. Figuring out the way that your opponent's deck is trying to win and disrupting the most threatening parts of that is key to commander. 

For example, if your opponent has a bunch of 1/1s and an anthem, you don't need to kill everything, but if you take care of either one they're effectively neutered. That's why against most voltron decks the most important thing to do is to always kill their creature. They'll always have more enchants and equips. They might not always have a creature to buff.

----------


## Eurus

Playing a creature turn 1 and then a board wipe on turn 3 or 4 tends to be pretty effective in my experience?

----------


## Man_Over_Game

Rules question for you all:

Say I'm using Tormond, the Desecrator (Gain a zombie whenever 1 or more cards leave my graveyard), and I have Scrapheap Scrounger in my graveyard (Exile another creature card from graveyard: Return me to the battlefield from graveyard).

The way Tormond is written, it only triggers per unique instance of a graveyard removal, so you don't get 10 zombies from a single delve or something. 

However, does Scrapheap move a card from the graveyard once for two cards, or twice?

----------


## enderlord99

> Rules question for you all:
> 
> Say I'm using Tormond, the Desecrator (Gain a zombie whenever 1 or more cards leave my graveyard), and I have Scrapheap Scrounger in my graveyard (Exile another creature card from graveyard: Return me to your hand from graveyard).
> 
> The way Tormond is written, it only triggers per unique instance of a graveyard removal, so you don't get 10 zombies from a single delve or something. 
> 
> However, does Scrapheap move a card from the graveyard once for two cards, or twice?


From the sound of things, twice.  Payment for an ability and the resolution of that ability are separate events.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> From the sound of things, twice.  Payment for an ability and the resolution of that ability are separate events.


Booyah, thank you!  That is an incredible way to basically get 3 reusable creatures for a sacrifice deck (costs 2 mana). 

 I was trying to find a valid use for my Vile Entomber (4 cost 2/2 Deathtouch, ETB tutor a card to your graveyard), but this just sold it.

----------


## Techwarrior

> Rules question for you all:
> 
> Say I'm using Tormond, the Desecrator (Gain a zombie whenever 1 or more cards leave my graveyard), and I have Scrapheap Scrounger in my graveyard (Exile another creature card from graveyard: Return me to your hand from graveyard).
> 
> The way Tormond is written, it only triggers per unique instance of a graveyard removal, so you don't get 10 zombies from a single delve or something. 
> 
> However, does Scrapheap move a card from the graveyard once for two cards, or twice?


Scrapheap Scrounger's ability removes a card from your yard when you activate it's own ability. That triggers your Tormond. Then when it's ability resolves (after the triggered ability), you would trigger the ability of Tormond via Scrapheap Scrounger leaving your yard. 

You would get two zombies, but you would get them in a nuanced ordering if that's at all relevant.

----------


## Fable Wright

> Rules question for you all:
> 
> Say I'm using Tormond, the Desecrator (Gain a zombie whenever 1 or more cards leave my graveyard), and I have Scrapheap Scrounger in my graveyard (Exile another creature card from graveyard: Return me to the battlefield from graveyard).
> 
> The way Tormond is written, it only triggers per unique instance of a graveyard removal, so you don't get 10 zombies from a single delve or something. 
> 
> However, does Scrapheap move a card from the graveyard once for two cards, or twice?


Also note that you can stack Scrapheap Scrounger activations repeatedly, for 2 mana per zombie up until such time as the card actually leaves your graveyard.

----------


## LaZodiac

Big set reveal day. 2022 is looking good! The highlights;

Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty. A Return to the infamous plane of Kamigawa, now in the future.

Dominaria United. Return to Dominaria under the new paradigm. Things are looking good for the old girl.

THE BROTHERS WAR. A redo of the old Antiquities, in modern style and with modern art. Relive all your favorite moments of soul crushing despair!

Streets of New Capella. Mafia-era styled plane. Three colour set, featuring five crime families. Ob Nixilis is here in a pinstripe suit, and Elspeth has a special connection to this place (I'm reading that as "Phyrexian mobsters")

Un-Finity. New un set, wherein among other things we're making fun of how stupid Bolas is. A classic.

OTHER THINGS
 -Actual art teasers for the Universre Beyond stuff, including Street Fighter, Warhammer, LOTR, and Two Weeks.
 - Battle for Baldur's Gate Commander decks
 - Jumpstart, Double Masters, and "Innistrad Double Feature" stuff coming out. It's pretty neat. The Double Feature is drive in movie aesthetic packaging for the wedding and werewolf sets combined, it seems.
 - New Secret Lairs, including the excellent "here is some planeswalkers in ye olde style formatting".

----------


## Emmerlaus

I always liked the idea of cyberpunk Japan. Cannot wait for that set!

2022 will look nice but... I wonder when we will hear about a Phyrexian God? You know, since they stole tyrinite, the stuff that makes gods? Not that I should care though...

... to think I was so disappointed in WotC when they released Walking Dead stuff. But when Forgotten Realm got out, I was too tempted to buy Treasure CHest for my pirate deck. So I guess that is that. Decided to just not care about MTG lore anymore and just get the cards that speak to me  :Small Sigh:

----------


## LaZodiac

> 2022 will look nice but... I wonder when we will hear about a Phyrexian God? You know, since they stole tyrinite, the stuff that makes gods?
> 
> I always liked the idea of cyberpunk Japan. Cannot wait for that set!
> 
> ... to think I was so disappointed in WotC when they released Walking Dead stuff. But when Forgotten Realm got out, I was too tempted to buy Treasure CHest for my pirate deck. So I guess that is that. Decided to just not care about MTG lore anymore and just get the cards that speak to me


You can care about the lore and just ignore the Fortnite cards. Some things aren't made for you.

There's a couple (I think very cynical) reasons to give up on caring about the lore, but it feels counter intuitive to actually enjoying the game, and this is definitely not one of them.

----------


## LansXero

Im personally sick of commander decks and wish WotC hadn't flooded the release schedule with them. No more FOMO, people no longer rush to get the commander release as soon as it lands, they now hew and haw because there is another one coming in a couple of months.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Im personally sick of commander decks and wish WotC hadn't flooded the release schedule with them. No more FOMO, people no longer rush to get the commander release as soon as it lands, they now hew and haw because there is another one coming in a couple of months.


You mean they provide enough stuff that people no longer splurge on things they might not want because "well we have to buy it we need more commander stuff"?

I get not liking it, that's totally valid. But nothing you said is negative at all  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Ninjaman

> I just did something nice for an opponent (specifically, I ramped them by targeting their Cascading Cataracts with my Field of Ruin (though I only did so because I needed to fix a color and they had no other nonbasics to target)) and then said "nice" because I wanted them to thank me.  They said "oops" instead, which seems *really* rude TBH.  I mean, they might have thought I'd made a legitimate mistake, but the fact that "thanks!" was available when they opened the emote-menu should have clued them in.


I mean you didn't really do something "nice" for them if they didn't have other nonbasics to target, and it seems completely reasonable for them to assume you made the play by mistake because you hadn't realized Cataracts was indestructible, (which would be a reasonable thing to miss).

----------


## LansXero

> You mean they provide enough stuff that people no longer splurge on things they might not want because "well we have to buy it we need more commander stuff"?
> 
> I get not liking it, that's totally valid. But nothing you said is negative at all


The negative is that stores got enamored of commander stuff auto selling out due to FOMO, so WotC decided to make nothing but 'hot' commander stuff, at the cost of no more intro product for Standard except '2 welcome decks and a code' and 'pile of cards about to rotate out', and now that Commander doesnt sell out as fast either we've got neither.

And the announcement has even more commander decks down the pipeline, plus Challenger Decks... for pioneer. I just wish Standard got something to get new people playing, table politics and fishing for old singles is not a welcoming new player experience.

----------


## Amechra

I personally hate the Fortnite cards because I find Fortnite itself to be ethically gross. At least Magic targets its FOMO bull**** at _adults_.

Like, I'll be honest? This might actually be the last straw for me  it killed any excitement I had for the upcoming Innistrad sets, and it even poisoned the news of the return to _frickin' Cyberpunk Kamigawa_. Not because "oh no, WotC will put a gun to my head if I don't play their new Fortnite Dab card" or anything dumb like that, but because it basically rubbed the fact that I've been hypocritical about WotC's business model in my face.

----------


## Emmerlaus

> I personally hate the Fortnite cards because I find Fortnite itself to be ethically gross. At least Magic targets its FOMO bull**** at _adults_.
> 
> Like, I'll be honest? This might actually be the last straw for me  it killed any excitement I had for the upcoming Innistrad sets, and it even poisoned the news of the return to _frickin' Cyberpunk Kamigawa_. Not because "oh no, WotC will put a gun to my head if I don't play their new Fortnite Dab card" or anything dumb like that, but because it basically rubbed the fact that I've been hypocritical about WotC's business model in my face.


Wait... I thought it was a meme or a joke. Is there going to be a Fortnite set?!?!?!

----------


## LaZodiac

> I personally hate the Fortnite cards because I find Fortnite itself to be ethically gross. At least Magic targets its FOMO bull**** at _adults_.
> 
> Like, I'll be honest? This might actually be the last straw for me  it killed any excitement I had for the upcoming Innistrad sets, and it even poisoned the news of the return to _frickin' Cyberpunk Kamigawa_. Not because "oh no, WotC will put a gun to my head if I don't play their new Fortnite Dab card" or anything dumb like that, but because it basically rubbed the fact that I've been hypocritical about WotC's business model in my face.


How so? Like, what is the issue here? I'm just curious, because I don't get it at all.




> Wait... I thought it was a meme or a joke. Is there going to be a Fortnite set?!?!?!


No, it's the World's Beyond thing. Thing Secret Lair printing of old cards with art based on that series.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> No, it's the World's Beyond thing. Thing Secret Lair printing of old cards with art based on that series.


Here's the link, for anyone who's interested: https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Universes_Beyond

To summarize, they're going to be releasing a bunch of non-canon sets that folks might enjoy (ranging from The Walking Dead to Street Fighter), and then they'll convert those cards into "canon" sets with MTG artwork and names about 6 months later.

Most of The Walking Dead set seem like reasonable Commanders for some starter decks.  

Glenn, for instance, is a 1WU 1/3 with Skulk and "When I hit a player, draw cards equal to my power", great for buffing with white effects to draw an extra 2-3 cards with minimal risk or cost.  Would be easily converted into some kind of cleric-rogue thing later on down the line.  You could even debuff his attack with blue to make him unblockable against tokens, and then jack up his damage after going through for a Commander damage wincon.

Michonne would make for an interesting Green/Black Equipment Zombie deck.  Imagine having to deal with a Menace, Deathtouch, Trample, Indestructible card that has to be blocked every turn.  That'd get annoying real quick.

The others are a bit niche to build a deck around, but are still decent general-purpose legendaries to stick in any deck they fit in.

----------


## Emmerlaus

> Here's the link, for anyone who's interested: https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Universes_Beyond
> 
> Most of The Walking Dead set seem like reasonable Commanders for some starter decks.


Nah, I dont agree. The simple fact that they pit "Walkers" instead of zombies on Michonne card is too confusing. Also, I am not interested in any cards that isnt applying to a fantasy setting.

Im actually surprised that Warhammer is coming off sooner then Lord of the Ring... I tried playing the system but I had no talent or patience with the figurines and simply nobody to play with. At least with Spelltable, I can play paper MTG online.

Side note: They decided for a realistic drawing for the Walking Dead serie... but then decided to make Gandalf black... Huh... Would you look at that... I thought it was Gandalf the grey or Gandalf the White... Now we have Gandalf the Black LOL  :Small Tongue:

----------


## LansXero

> II've been hypocritical about WotC's business model


Collectibles target addicts. Store owners and influencers will dress it up in 'community' or 'fandom' or whatever, but its all skinner boxes in the end. Now, of course, the _game_ or _lore_ can be interacted with to any degree one finds comfortable, but its all paid for by the addicts who keep getting hooked.

Coming to terms with it and either leaving or not caring is hard apparently; people in the store groups keep getting offended when it gets pointed out. But yes, targetting kids with it is a new low. Then again, MLP Secret Lair was already a thing.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> Nah, I dont agree. The simple fact that they pit "Walkers" instead of zombies on Michonne card is too confusing. Also, I am not interested in any cards that isnt applying to a fantasy setting.


I agree, these are going to be reprinted as MTG-canon cards sometime in the near future.  Same effects, different skin.  And obviously without that terrible "Walker" verbiage (which will just be replaced with the standard 2/2 zombie).

----------


## Emmerlaus

> I agree, these are going to be reprinted as MTG-canon cards sometime in the near future.  Same effects, different skin.  And obviously without that terrible "Walker" verbiage (which will just be replaced with the standard 2/2 zombie).


That... will be surprisingly more acceptable. I hope printed in a larger scale then the Secret Lairs though. 

Im surprise how ok I am with the cards crossover so far. Once I have accepted to just forget about mtg lore and detached myself from it, its actually ok my in book. Still going to roll my eyes if I see a walking dead card at my table though. Lucille is especially cringy, not a weapon from a fantasy setting.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> That... will be surprisingly more acceptable. I hope printed in a larger scale then the Secret Lairs though. 
> 
> Im surprise how ok I am with the cards crossover so far. Once I have accepted to just forget about mtg lore and detached myself from it, its actually ok my in book. Still going to roll my eyes if I see a walking dead card at my table though. Lucille is especially cringy, not a weapon from a fantasy setting.


Sorry, I just read the fine print, and I was wrong.  The future Universes Beyond cards will be reprinted as MTG-canon cards, The Walking Dead set was not included in that statement (although they've said that they don't have any real reasons not to).

----------


## Amechra

> Collectibles target addicts. Store owners and influencers will dress it up in 'community' or 'fandom' or whatever, but its all skinner boxes in the end. Now, of course, the _game_ or _lore_ can be interacted with to any degree one finds comfortable, but its all paid for by the addicts who keep getting hooked.
> 
> Coming to terms with it and either leaving or not caring is hard apparently; people in the store groups keep getting offended when it gets pointed out. But yes, targetting kids with it is a new low. Then again, MLP Secret Lair was already a thing.


Exactly this. Basically, this was my personal "well, I can't just pretend it isn't a thing" threshold.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Nah, I dont agree. The simple fact that they pit "Walkers" instead of zombies on Michonne card is too confusing. Also, I am not interested in any cards that isnt applying to a fantasy setting.
> 
> Im actually surprised that Warhammer is coming off sooner then Lord of the Ring... I tried playing the system but I had no talent or patience with the figurines and simply nobody to play with. At least with Spelltable, I can play paper MTG online.
> 
> Side note: They decided for a realistic drawing for the Walking Dead serie... but then decided to make Gandalf black... Huh... Would you look at that... I thought it was Gandalf the grey or Gandalf the White... Now we have Gandalf the Black LOL


... in what world is this guy black?

------

I mean lets be fair here; this is a collectable trading card game. It's always been. These being slightly more collectable than others isn't that big in the grand scheme of things. I'll admit I don't buy any cards, it's just not a thing I care about, so maybe I'm just coming at it from a perspective that is different from all of yours. I do get what you're coming at, though.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

I recently fell in love with Breena as a Commander, as she both has a powerful group-hug mechanic while also being able to leverage her powers to great effect.  There have been games where I dominated without the help of others, and there have been other games where I was threatened by a dominating player, so I helped another player to deal with my problems and hoped I got ignored.  It's been great.

However, I want to experiment with other deck opportunities. 

I'd like to avoid another Black/White deck, if possible.  I'd _really_ like to find a way to make a  PvP interactive Blue/Red deck, but that's a really tall order (since those decks probably have the least PvP interaction than most, often relying on effects the owner triggers or comboing stuff out of hand.).   

What other Commanders would you guys suggest for this kind of gameplay?  Something that's incredibly interactive with your opponents, but still can be a force to reckon with when you have to take matters into your own hands?

----------


## Emmerlaus

> I recently fell in love with Breena as a Commander, as she both has a powerful group-hug mechanic while also being able to leverage her powers to great effect.  There have been games where I dominated without the help of others, and there have been other games where I was threatened by a dominating player, so I helped another player to deal with my problems and hoped I got ignored.  It's been great.
> 
> However, I want to experiment with other deck opportunities. 
> 
> I'd like to avoid another Black/White deck, if possible.  I'd _really_ like to find a way to make a  PvP interactive Blue/Red deck, but that's a really tall order (since those decks probably have the least PvP interaction than most, often relying on effects the owner triggers or comboing stuff out of hand.).   
> 
> What other Commanders would you guys suggest for this kind of gameplay?  Something that's incredibly interactive with your opponents, but still can be a force to reckon with when you have to take matters into your own hands?


Well you need to specify what you mean about PVP. Interactions should be in any kind of decks, no matter the color. 

Do you want a deck that relies on the Commander abilities mostly? Would you like to have a wheel deck?

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> Well you need to specify what you mean about PVP. Interactions should be in any kind of decks, no matter the color. 
> 
> Do you want a deck that relies on the Commander abilities mostly? Would you like to have a wheel deck?


I guess I'm looking for stuff that encourages interaction from my opponents, group hug or Monarchy kind of stuff.  The only examples I've found in Red/Blue (the colors I'm most interested in) have been Kraum and Ludivec, but some more opponent vs. opponent aggression (like with Breena) would be nice if possible.

The how isn't too terribly important, it's not that hard to keep important cards alive when you're running blue.

----------


## Emmerlaus

> I guess I'm looking for stuff that encourages interaction from my opponents, group hug or Monarchy kind of stuff.  The only examples I've found in Red/Blue (the colors I'm most interested in) have been Kraum and Ludivec, but some more opponent vs. opponent aggression (like with Breena) would be nice if possible.
> 
> The how isn't too terribly important, it's not that hard to keep important cards alive when you're running blue.


Interesting... but group hug isnt very Izzet in color. Its quite the challenge...

Would you be willing to dip in another color by any chances? because otherwise, I feel Pramikon, Sky Rampart could be something you enjoy. 

Would you be interested in flipping coins strategy otherwise?

You could also aim to have a top deck strategy with a lot of political cards inside.

... Or simply go with Nin, The Pain Artist? Having a removal in the Command Zone can be useful? And its the closest to group hug strategy I can find in those colors lol  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Tvtyrant

> I guess I'm looking for stuff that encourages interaction from my opponents, group hug or Monarchy kind of stuff.  The only examples I've found in Red/Blue (the colors I'm most interested in) have been Kraum and Ludivec, but some more opponent vs. opponent aggression (like with Breena) would be nice if possible.
> 
> The how isn't too terribly important, it's not that hard to keep important cards alive when you're running blue.


Nin the Pain Artist is one, you kill the biggest threat and let them draw that many cards in return each round.

Zara Renegade Recruiter if you use flicker effects, giving people free beaters after you get a turn with them?

----------


## Emmerlaus

> Nin the Pain Artist is one, you kill the biggest threat and let them draw that many cards in return each round.
> 
> Zara Renegade Recruiter if you use flicker effects, giving people free beaters after you get a turn with them?


Im glad to see Im not the only one thinking Nin the Pain Artist should fit the bill LOL  :Small Big Grin: 




> ... in what world is this guy black?


Well he could be tanned, true... but I thought we already had Radagast the Brown? lol

----------


## Androgeus

> And obviously without that terrible "Walker" verbiage (which will just be replaced with the standard 2/2 zombie).


Unlikely as that would be a functional change. Walker tokens are named Walker, the regular zombie tokens are named zombie.

----------


## Binks

> Unlikely as that would be a functional change. Walker tokens are named Walker, the regular zombie tokens are named zombie.


WotC already said they might make mechanical alterations when reprinting them (https://twitter.com/MTGSecretLair/st...95989326053377). Doubtful they'd use "walker" on a regular mtg plane, so more likely any walking dead cards that make those would just make 2/2 zombies and be _technically_ different cards but _functionally_ the same thing.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> WotC already said they might make mechanical alterations when reprinting them (https://twitter.com/MTGSecretLair/st...95989326053377). Doubtful they'd use "walker" on a regular mtg plane, so more likely any walking dead cards that make those would just make 2/2 zombies and be _technically_ different cards but _functionally_ the same thing.


 What's funny is that the only thing that mentions Walkers are the ETB effects.  Anything that triggers off of them  (like Michonne or Daryl) uses the term Zombie for those triggers instead.

So "Walker" is just a fancy way of saying "2/2 Zombie" for most mechanical purposes.  The only time I think the name would be mechanically relevant is if you had to affect cards with a specific name (like Maelstrom Pulse), as "Walker" and "Zombie" would affect two different tokens.

----------


## Amidus Drexel

My wife and I have recently got into Pauper after a few years of waffling on the format, and have a few decks' worth of cards in the mail. Currently, we're putting together Chatterstorm, BW Pestilence, UB Faeries, and Affinity, but we might end up building some other decks too (I'm a fan of Walls combo, and my wife rather likes the RG/x Cascade deck).

Does anyone else here play Pauper?




> WotC already said they might make mechanical alterations when reprinting them (https://twitter.com/MTGSecretLair/st...95989326053377). Doubtful they'd use "walker" on a regular mtg plane, so more likely any walking dead cards that make those would just make 2/2 zombies and be _technically_ different cards but _functionally_ the same thing.


If the cards are technically different (even if functionally identical) without errata that indicates they're the same card, you can play more of them in tournament formats, which _could_ be relevant. Probably not terribly likely, though (and errata-ing "Walker token" to "2/2 zombie token" is not difficult).

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> If the cards are technically different (even if functionally identical) without errata that indicates they're the same card, you can play more of them in tournament formats, which _could_ be relevant. Probably not terribly likely, though (and errata-ing "Walker token" to "2/2 zombie token" is not difficult).


The Universes Beyond cards will be tournament legal, and they'll be considered equivalent to their MTG-Canon duplicate.  So if they ever print The Walking Dead MTG cards as canon-equivalents, you can only have 4 of those combined copies like any other card.  They'll give them a special rule treatment to reflect that they're the same card.

Apparently they considered giving the UB cards a unique border, but their R&D team was worried about folks not treating them as "Real" MTG cards.  Judging by the response in this thread, I'd say it was a good hunch.




> My wife and I have recently got into Pauper after a few years of waffling on the format, and have a few decks' worth of cards in the mail. Currently, we're putting together Chatterstorm, BW Pestilence, UB Faeries, and Affinity, but we might end up building some other decks too (I'm a fan of Walls combo, and my wife rather likes the RG/x Cascade deck).





> Does anyone else here play Pauper?




I _really_ want to, but I've just got my wife back into Magic and she's a bit skittish about trying new game modes.  She built her first blue deck after years of despising them and found it pretty fun! (Although she found it incredibly exhausting, which I kinda agree with...)

----------


## Emmerlaus

Spoiler season have started!

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-set/...ad-werewolves/

Opinion so far: Coven is not interesting, Decayed is not for me BUT I like the Disturb mechanic. Althought I dont play the black color that much, Void Maw just got a new mechanic to build around  :Small Tongue: 

I have a Zelda 64 EDH deck and Im now hoping for a way to put a Daybound/Nightbound card inside. Something fitting the theme though...  :Small Wink:

----------


## LansXero

Just venting, but if you play Arena, know your own stuff please. Stupid dungeon delving decks slowing drafts down when they take forever to resolve their stuff.

Also, if you've lost, be kind and concede. Nobody wants to go through the motions when its a foregone conclussion.

----------


## Dienekes

> Spoiler season have started!
> 
> http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-set/...ad-werewolves/
> 
> Opinion so far: Coven is not interesting, Decayed is not for me BUT I like the Disturb mechanic. Althought I dont play the black color that much, Void Maw just got a new mechanic to build around 
> 
> I have a Zelda 64 EDH deck and Im now hoping for a way to put a Daybound/Nightbound card inside. Something fitting the theme though...


Hmm, transforming creature flashback seems like a mechanic I will find very boring but will definitely be very useful. 

Well that might be a bit harsh. Perhaps it will push players to being more aggressive with attacking with their creatures. That could be fun. But I think it will probably just get slotted into those silly sacrifice decks.

----------


## enderlord99

> Also, if you've lost, be kind and concede. Nobody wants to go through the motions when its a foregone conclussion.


 :Small Annoyed:  Did you really call me "nobody" just because I like to flex when I'm ahead?

----------


## RayGallade

> Just venting, but if you play Arena, know your own stuff please. Stupid dungeon delving decks slowing drafts down when they take forever to resolve their stuff.
> 
> Also, if you've lost, be kind and concede. Nobody wants to go through the motions when its a foregone conclussion.


I'm going to push back on both of those points. There are times when I feel I need to evaluate the board state seriously before making my room choice if I pick up Venture cards. Making the correct decision can often mean the difference between having lethal and missing it.

As for "if you've lost," it depends on what you mean. Opponent is completely locked out (eg: Rule of Law and Jace, Unraveler of Secrets ultimate) without any outs, sure I can understand the frustration. Nine Lives, Solemnity, and a pair of Sterling Groves? Your opponent might be running a sweeper that hits your combo pieces. Got your opponent down to one life and you're still at twenty? You could always run out of steam or the other player might stabilize and turn the tables on you. It could even be that your opponent wants to let you play your fancy combo out.

Granted, this comes from someone who runs Baral, Chief of Compliance to lock his opponents out of Historic Brawl. Got tired enough of intricate combos that I decided the easiest way to stop them was simply not to let my opponent resolve anything.

----------


## LansXero

> I'm going to push back on both of those points. There are times when I feel I need to evaluate the board state seriously before making my room choice if I pick up Venture cards. Making the correct decision can often mean the difference between having lethal and missing it.


At times perhaps. But every single time it triggers they take forever. 




> As for "if you've lost," it depends on what you mean


. 

I mean literally lost. Like, there is lethal on board once everything resolves and you're tapped out. Letting the triggers go to overtime is an ass move.

----------


## enderlord99

> I mean literally lost. Like, there is lethal on board once everything resolves and you're tapped out. Letting the triggers go to overtime is an ass move.


Oh!  You were specifically complaining about _deliberate roping_?

I agree then.

----------


## Emmerlaus

Im surprised nobody is talking about the new set... Should we talk about it in spoilers or not?  :Small Confused:

----------


## LaZodiac

The new set is good, and the story they've been releasing for it is fantastic. I just think most people here don't care about it, unfortunately (I do though).

----------


## Dienekes

> The new set is good, and the story they've been releasing for it is fantastic. I just think most people here don't care about it, unfortunately (I do though).


Out of curiosity, what's making it good?

I went through a big read of MTG story early covid and kind of drained out of them. But I'm willing to read werewolves absolutely destroy some of the planeswalker crew.

----------


## Tvtyrant

> Out of curiosity, what's making it good?
> 
> I went through a big read of MTG story early covid and kind of drained out of them. But I'm willing to read werewolves absolutely destroy some of the planeswalker crew.


I'm extremely sick of Innistrad, so I'm basically skipping this set.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> Out of curiosity, what's making it good?
> 
> I went through a big read of MTG story early covid and kind of drained out of them. But I'm willing to read werewolves absolutely destroy some of the planeswalker crew.


I'll try to summarize it, but it will be a bit simplified for those who aren't familiar with what the heck's going on.

Innistrad is Soren's (Vampire Plainswalker) hometown and lifelong project.  Before the Battle For Zendikar, Soren and Nahiri (Stone Magic Plainswalker) were good friends and worked together to stop the Eldrazi when they first showed up.  However, just before they showed up again, they had a disagreement, his psychotic angel bodyguard detected Nahiri as a threat, and Soren resorted to sealing away Nahiri into a stone prison that is normally used for demons just so neither Nahiri or his angel got destroyed for good.

Just after the Eldrazi showed up the second time to wreck Zendikar, Nahiri manages to break free.  Seeing as how her world is destroyed, and her allies have forsaken her (when really she had _just_ missed Soren who decided to leave her in the Helvault to make sure all the demons stayed in there too), she decides to take some revenge.  Ugin, her other ally, is dead, so that leaves Soren.  She decides to get creative, since she's really pissed about her homeworld being destroyed (after risking it the first time to seal away the Eldrazi).

So she uses her stone magic to build cryptoliths on Innistrad, essentially ley-line redirectors, to aim Innistrad's magic towards a ritual circle to summon Emrakul.  His influence on the plain corrupts everything into having more and more Eldrazi mutations, until half the population are nothing but eldritch horrors.

A big battle happens, Soren gets trapped in a stone prison by Nahiri (how's that for ironic), Soren's last sane superangel barely manages to seal Emrakul in Innistrad's moon, and the influence of the Eldrazi is paused for a hot minute of MTG time (which is usually counted in centuries), Innistrad goes back to normal.

Well, kinda.  Innistrad is a world of vampires and werewolves, kept in check by Soren and his angels.  Thing is, werewolves just happen to be _really_ affected by the fact that an eldritch titan is trapped in their power source, and neither Soren or most of his angels are around anymore, so the people are running into a few problems.  But they figured out a solution: Magic. 

So the new set is about a bunch of civilians trying to become hedge witches to protect themselves against vampires who always want to eat them, demons who always want to cheat them, and werewolves who now want to eat everything.





Innistrad sets are friggin' cool, probably some of the best design I've seen out of most MTG sets.  I mean, just look at this guy: https://mythicspoiler.com/mid/cards/...tedbishop.html

Can't wait for the set to come in, really looking forward to it.

----------


## Dienekes

> I'm extremely sick of Innistrad, so I'm basically skipping this set.


So, I've played MTG on and off for decades, and by essentially pure luck I have missed every Innistrad set. So I'm actually excited to finally play werewolves, they look kinda fun.

But I don't really know how to comment on the set really. Most of the stuff I tend to think is fun and thematic tends to gets beat pretty easily by actually well crafted decks.




> So the new set is about a bunch of civilians trying to become hedge witches to protect themselves against vampires who always want to eat them, demons who always want to cheat them, and werewolves who now want to eat everything.


Thank you for the summery. But I kinda knew the run up. I was more asking "what makes this current batch of stories good?" from your or LaZodiac's perspective.

Because if it's just the planeswalkers faffing about doing their heroics, I'll probably skip it. if it is visceral and disturbing horror about rampaging werewolves eating said planeswalkers, yeah I might give it a read.

----------


## enderlord99

> if it's just the planeswalkers faffing about doing their heroics, I'll probably skip it. if it is visceral and disturbing horror about rampaging werewolves eating said planeswalkers, yeah I might give it a read.


For now?  I'd say skip.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> Because if it's just the planeswalkers faffing about doing their heroics, I'll probably skip it. if it is visceral and disturbing horror about rampaging werewolves eating said planeswalkers, yeah I might give it a read.


Innistrad's never really been about plainswalkers doing plainswalker things.  It's usually caught in its own internal battles, because Soren's really paranoid and surrounded the whole plane with wards and angels.  As of now, none of the revealed cards even mention plainswalkers in their flavor text or abilities besides the few local planeswalkers.

More than likely, it'll end with some kind of spell releasing Soren, or maybe some ritual to stop the werewolves breaks the moon and releases Emrakul.  Shadows Over Innistrad/Eldritch Moon was a little bit more involved, with Jace acting as the local Sherlock Holmes, Liliana being bored and deciding to assist with undead, Nahiri trying to mess everything up, and Soren getting the Han Solo treatment, but even then their involvement revolved mostly around the local environment and not all that relevant in the Multiverse. 

 This time, it seems like planeswalkers won't get involved until the locals get them involved.  So far, all that's known is that Teferi, Chandra and Kaya are being recruited to stop the Eternal Night (a super-evil, never-ending night that the Moon is slowly inflicting on Innistrad), although I imagine more dramatic stuff will happen in the following set, Crimson Vow.  That seems to be the trend with Innistrad sets: A first set to ask a question, and a second set for an explosive answer.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Innistrad's never really been about plainswalkers doing plainswalker things.  It's usually caught in its own internal battles, because Soren's really paranoid and surrounded the whole plain with wards and angels.  As of now, none of the revealed cards even mention plainswalkers.
> 
> More than likely, it'll end with some kind of spell releasing Soren, or maybe some ritual to stop the werewolves breaks the moon and releases Emrakul.  Shadows Over Innistrad/Eldritch Moon was a little bit more involved, with Jace acting as the local Sherlock Holmes, Liliana being bored and deciding to assist with undead, Nahiri trying to mess everything up, and Soren getting the Han Solo treatment, but even then their involvement revolved mostly around the local environment and not all that relevant in the Multiverse. 
> 
>  This time, it seems like planeswalkers won't get involved until the locals get them involved.  So far, all that's known is that Teferi, Chandra and Kaya are being recruited to stop the Eternal Night (a super-evil, never-ending night that the Moon is slowly inflicting on Innistrad), although I imagine more dramatic stuff will happen in the following set, Crimson Vow.  That seems to be the trend with Innistrad sets: A first set to ask a question, and a second set for an explosive answer.


There was also a really nice story of Tefer meeting Wren, the cool dryad planeswalker.

----------


## Emmerlaus

Im a EDH (Commander) player and Im a big fan on some of the new cards like Croaking Counterpart and Heronblade Elite. But yeah, I wont buy cards above 5 dollars in this set. Only cheap cards in the 99 for my decks. The white Adversary card could have fit in one of my deck but its not even that good. 

But still, I like the Disturb mechanic. I hope they expand on it. I suspect they will for the next set. Bought a few cheap one for my new Vega deck. This way Ill finally have an Azorius color deck!

----------


## Dienekes

So they made another set release trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQi3raUki7s

It's not as good as War of the Spark's or Throne of Eldraine's in my opinion. But it's fun.

----------


## Emmerlaus

> So they made another set release trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQi3raUki7s
> 
> It's not as good as War of the Spark's or Throne of Eldraine's in my opinion. But it's fun.


Im not sure if I should laugh or cringe by the fact they gave the name Tim to a little boy in crutches... Im not sure if was deliberate or not LOL  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Personification

> So, I've played MTG on and off for decades, and by essentially pure luck I have missed every Innistrad set. So I'm actually excited to finally play werewolves, they look kinda fun.
> 
> But I don't really know how to comment on the set really. Most of the stuff I tend to think is fun and thematic tends to gets beat pretty easily by actually well crafted decks.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the summery. But I kinda knew the run up. I was more asking "what makes this current batch of stories good?" from your or LaZodiac's perspective.
> 
> Because if it's just the planeswalkers faffing about doing their heroics, I'll probably skip it. if it is visceral and disturbing horror about rampaging werewolves eating said planeswalkers, yeah I might give it a read.


It's a bit of both. There's also witches doing witchy things if you are interested. If you really want to see people just getting gutted on Innistrad, I would recommend "A Gaze Blank and Pitiless" from SOI.

----------


## LaZodiac

There's also a fair number of side stories involving planebound people, some of whom are legendary cards in the set. The latest one featuring Rem and Vadrick fighting Stickfingers is really good (it also reveals Vadrick has a husband, and there's a cool old trans lady, if representation is a thing you care a lot about). Chandra also gets to be more gay in the main story.

----------


## Dienekes

> It's a bit of both. There's also witches doing witchy things if you are interested. If you really want to see people just getting gutted on Innistrad, I would recommend "A Gaze Blank and Pitiless" from SOI.


Witches being witches can be fun, so long as it's you know actual horror. If it ain't horrifying it isn't really horror. It's just an adventure story dressed in Goth. But I'll look into A Gae Blank and Pitiless. It certainly sounds promising.




> There's also a fair number of side stories involving planebound people, some of whom are legendary cards in the set. The latest one featuring Rem and Vadrick fighting Stickfingers is really good (it also reveals Vadrick has a husband, and there's a cool old trans lady, if representation is a thing you care a lot about). Chandra also gets to be more gay in the main story.


This is one of those things that mentally I am aware that having a more diverse cast is beneficial to society and allows people to see themselves portrayed as heroic in a narrative. Which is good and should be encouraged.

But has never actually increased or decreased my enjoyment of a story. Who people are in a relationship with is pretty much the least interesting part of a character. We're reading about terrifying monsters ripping apart townsfolk, cursing people into madness, and the very depths of the blackest part of the human psyche. I just never get excited about who people are interested in romantically.

----------


## Personification

> Witches being witches can be fun, so long as it's you know actual horror. If it ain't horrifying it isn't really horror. It's just an adventure story dressed in Goth. But I'll look into A Gae Blank and Pitiless. It certainly sounds promising.
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of those things that mentally I am aware that having a more diverse cast is beneficial to society and allows people to see themselves portrayed as heroic in a narrative. Which is good and should be encouraged.
> 
> But has never actually increased or decreased my enjoyment of a story. Who people are in a relationship with is pretty much the least interesting part of a character. We're reading about terrifying monsters ripping apart townsfolk, cursing people into madness, and the very depths of the blackest part of the human psyche. I just never get excited about who people are interested in romantically.


"Sisters" from the side story has some legitimate horror to it, and is the witchiest story so far. As to your later point, I think that's fine. The real problem is people who for some reason enjoy something less purely because it contains representation. Tell me what you think of the SOI story.

----------


## Personification

> I used to play magic the gathering when I was younger, is this game still popular?


Yes. Very. It is, I believe, responsible for the plurality of Hasbro's profits. Welcome back. When did you play?

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> But I don't really know how to comment on the set really. Most of the stuff I tend to think is fun and thematic tends to gets beat pretty easily by actually well crafted decks.


From my experience, with the current set and the last two (Shadows Over Innistrad, Eldritch Moon), the cards themselves are pretty darn weak, they just happen to use a lot of really fun and interesting mechanics to play with that set up excellent themes.

The best way to play the set is probably with drafts.  Innistrad stuff seems to encourage interactivity and slow-building combos that are easy to predict and interfere with, which is terrible for competition but makes for an excellent time.

----------


## Dienekes

> "Sisters" from the side story has some legitimate horror to it, and is the witchiest story so far. As to your later point, I think that's fine. The real problem is people who for some reason enjoy something less purely because it contains representation. Tell me what you think of the SOI story.


Not bad, some moments where you can feel a bit of terror when it switches to the perspective of the humans. There is some real horror in having one's mind corrupted that I don't think the author did as well a job with as they could have. But I enjoyed it. 




> From my experience, with the current set and the last two (Shadows Over Innistrad, Eldritch Moon), the cards themselves are pretty darn weak, they just happen to use a lot of really fun and interesting mechanics to play with that set up excellent themes.
> 
> The best way to play the set is probably with drafts.  Innistrad stuff seems to encourage interactivity and slow-building combos that are easy to predict and interfere with, which is terrible for competition but makes for an excellent time.


I'm actually doing pretty well right now. Admittedly part of that is I decided early on to do werewolves, because Hell yeah. Werewolves. Turn into monsters and destroy things. And then I got lucky enough to crack two Tovolars with my packs. 

And repeated card draw is incredibly powerful and strangely undercosted.

----------


## noob

> Not bad, some moments where you can feel a bit of terror when it switches to the perspective of the humans. There is some real horror in having one's mind corrupted that I don't think the author did as well a job with as they could have. But I enjoyed it. 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm actually doing pretty well right now. Admittedly part of that is I decided early on to do werewolves, because Hell yeah. Werewolves. Turn into monsters and destroy things. And then I got lucky enough to crack two Tovolars with my packs. 
> 
> And repeated card draw is incredibly powerful and strangely undercosted.


The two costs for repeated card draw I remember(because those were repeated card draw the opponent could barely interact with) are 2 mana to set up then 2 mana per card drawn and 4 mana to set up then 1 mana per card drawn.(both of those were conditional but the conditions were quite trivial)
In the two cases before it starts becoming an advantage relatively to the paid mana you need to draw something like 3 cards.
Maybe imnistrad had cheaper than that repeated card draw like life loss card draw(such as "attack with this creature then lose 1 life and draw 1 card").

----------


## Emmerlaus

> It was very interesting to see how this?


You wanna see the decklist?

https://scryfall.com/@emmerlaus/deck...2-5f509e8987a1

There is a few cards that are there because they fit the theme rather then have a beautiful card inside the art. For exemple, Saving Grace show someone using " the Princess hold ", fitting a charming Prince. Fighter Class is also there to simply give Jarred the warrior a DND class, The same way as equipements dont have to follow that rule because they are well, items. Alpha Autority fit the Prince CHarming theme as well, he IS an alpha male LOL

I think only Khalni Ambush dont fit the theme but there is a p.... cat in it so I give it a pass lol As for Reap The Past, yeah, its the only one who I cant really justify it but I love the art.

*But still, every creature in the 99 is a girl.*

EDIT: I posted that on the very first page on this thread, that was a long time ago. Trostiani didnt even made the final cut LOL

----------


## Giggling Ghast

Ive been playing some Magic on my iPhone via the Arena app because I wanted to get in on that sweet Innistrad action and Ive noticed that opponents tend to give up really easily? Like, I know I got some good draws, but were on turn 7 or 8. Put some faith in the Heart of the Cards, guy.

----------


## Dienekes

> Ive been playing some Magic on my iPhone via the Arena map because I wanted to get in on that sweet Innistrad action and Ive noticed that opponents tend to give up really easily? Like, I know I got some good draws, but were on turn 7 or 8. Put some faith in the Heart of the Cards, guy.


I mean, sometimes I know I don't have any answers in my deck, so why delay the inevitable?

Or other times I'm playing against a control player and why would I keep playing a game that's not fun?

----------


## Giggling Ghast

Im playing White Weenie. I know that Turn 1 Sanctuary Cat has devastated your whole strategy, but come on. Give it a couple minutes and Im sure youll pull a Grizzly Bear.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Dienekes

> Im playing White Weenie. I know that Turn 1 Sanctuary Cat has devastated your whole strategy, but come on. Give it a few minutes and Im sure youll pull a Grizzly Bear.


Alright, I got nothing for that.

----------


## noob

> Im playing White Weenie. I know that Turn 1 Sanctuary Cat has devastated your whole strategy, but come on. Give it a couple minutes and Im sure youll pull a Grizzly Bear.


I can guarantee that turn 1 sanctuary cat is an absolutely terrifying prospect: a well made white deck can reliably put on the battlefield a stronger creature or use a cool mass boost/single target boost each turn until the opponent dies.
So if a white beatdown deck turn 1 already have a creature it is an huge danger worthy of surrendering immediately.
Unless you have a green deck but that is cheating.

----------


## Tvtyrant

I switched over to Premodern recently, I'm having a good time. I have brewed up a few decks, my latest one is shockingly good.

https://deckstats.net/deck-22909323-...dac1f5fce.html

*Spoiler*
Show

//Main
3 Abduction
4 Academy Researchers
4 Altar of Dementia
2 Armadillo Cloak
4 Counterspell
3 Frantic Search
4 Intuition
4 Iridescent Drake
17 Island
4 Mental Note
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mythic Proportions
3 Portent

//Sideboard
4 Cursed Totem
3 Energy Flux
4 Overburden
4 Phyrexian Furnace


It can either be a very aggressive turn 3 10/10 trample deck or an infinite combo deck, and does decent as a control deck.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

Fun fact: did you know that if you equip Harvesttide Sentry with the Hedgewitchs Mask and have at least two other creatures with abilities in play (thus triggering the Sentrys Coven power), you have a 4/2 attacker thats unblockable except by monsters with three power?

Certainly thats of limited usefulness, but it did help me beat a Lifeline deck this afternoon. (Nearly everyone on Arena is playing pre-made Lifeline decks right now. Its pretty strong.)

----------


## Androgeus

> have at least two other creatures with abilities in play (thus triggering the Sentrys Coven power)


You know Coven cares about power as in power/toughness power and not abilities right?

----------


## Giggling Ghast

Oh really? I guess I bumbled into that win, then.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## enderlord99

Midrange Decks are, by some metrics, a subcategory of Control Deck.

For example...

Control Decks are (by some definition) ones that aim to deprive your opponents of a particular resource (which one depending on the style of Control Deck you're playing) and thus prevent them from taking proper advantage of their other resources.  In the case of Taxes or Land Destruction or to some extent Traditional Control, that resource is mana.  In the case of Discard or Hatebears or Lantern Control, that resource is cards.  In the case of Midrange, that resource is their life total.

Does this seem accurate?  It feels intuitively reasonable to me, but I'm not a good judge of such things.

----------


## Androgeus

> Midrange Decks are, by some metrics, a subcategory of Control Deck.
> 
> For example...
> 
> Control Decks are (by some definition) ones that aim to deprive your opponents of a particular resource (which one depending on the style of Control Deck you're playing) and thus prevent them from taking proper advantage of their other resources.  In the case of Taxes or Land Destruction or to some extent Traditional Control, that resource is mana.  In the case of Discard or Hatebears or Lantern Control, that resource is cards.  In the case of Midrange, that resource is their life total.
> 
> Does this seem accurate?  It feels intuitively reasonable to me, but I'm not a good judge of such things.


I think that definition is to broad and would end up classifying any aggro deck as control (arguably an aggro deck is trying to control the opponent by depriving them of turns). What a midrange deck is is a deck that tries to switch from a early control game to aggro around turn 4-5

----------


## enderlord99

Ah.  I suppose one that switches gears on turns 6-8 is "post-midrange" and one that switches over on 9-12 is "midrange-control" then?

Obviously, anything that changes gears later than that is just "a control deck with a win condition"

----------


## Techwarrior

You're missing the real difference between control and midrange decks. 

Midrange as an archetype is looking to make valuable trades and then play a hyper efficient threat that kills their opponent while invalidating as many of their cards as possible. Think of this classic play pattern. 

Thoghtseize you. Cast Tarmogoyf. Cast Liliana of the Veil. 

When this was a relevant play pattern, Goyf invalidated all ground creatures, either holding the fort for Liliana to generate value, or putting your opponent under the gun while Liliana limited their resources. Either way, most of your opponents cards and resources don't do anything anymore. 

Midrange cards generally include a lot of planeswalkers and EtB or value creatures like Bonecrusher Giant. 

-- 

Control meanwhile, is looking to efficiently trade card for card while they look to get to a late game where they have a full grip of cards and their opponent has none. Control as an archetype typically doesn't need to play creatures or win conditions because by the time they're trying to win the game, nothing their opponent can do is relevant anymore. Control doesn't win because snapcaster chipped in for 2 for 10 turns. Control wins because Jace tMS has them brainstorming every turn. 

Also, most control decks don't care how much mana their opponent has in play once they get online, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that they want to deny mana. 

-- 

The third archetype you're describing is Prison. Prison decks look to lock your opponent from doing something. If the prison effect doesn't matter to the opponent (i.e. Codex Shredder vs Dredge), then the deck fails to function. Typically these archetypes play multiple methods of locking the opponent out and have ways to find them. Similar to control, once they get to their endgame they are difficult to beat. It's very important to differentiate the two styles though, as a prison deck looks to make every card in your opponent's deck not function, while a control deck looks to be able to counter or remove every card their opponent plays. 

Hatebears, Taxes, Land Destruction, and Ensnaring Bridge decks are all prison decks. 

-- 

Now, the reason I bring this up is because a lot of decks now do a bit of blending archetypes and even more than that players tend to throw archetype names around inappropriately. Most control decks need some amount of midrange cards to stabilize with and get to their endgame for instance. A lot of midrange and prison decks play efficient removal or counters to help them survive early turns or disrupt combo decks before their big thing hits the board.

----------


## Amidus Drexel

I think there are a lot of different ways to approach classifying decks (and what role a deck takes can depend on the matchup), but I tend to do it like this:

*Aggro decks are mostly concerned with ending the game*. If you're "the aggro deck" in a particular MU, your goal is to kill your opponent before they can get their primary gameplan online. Here you tend to see efficient creatures and tempo plays (ones that might be card-negative or card-neutral, but "trade up" on mana or make your opponent play inefficiently or slowly).

*Control decks are mostly concerned with not dying*. If you're "the control deck" in a particular MU, your goal is to stay alive long enough to bring your more powerful cards to bear against your opponent. Here you tend to see spells that generate lots of value (like planeswalkers, man-lands, sweepers, cantrips, etc.) and cards that trade at 2-for-1 or better.

*Midrange decks are usually designed to hit a sweet spot between the two archetypes* - against fast decks, they want to play a control game, trading 1-for-1 early so they can slow the game down and use their high-value cards against their fast opponent's (usually) individually weak cards. Against slow decks, they want to play an aggressive game, using disruptive cards to protect their efficient threats to apply pressure quickly, and land their high-value cards after their slower opponent has spent resources dealing with their early threats.

--
Decks can switch roles based on the MU, too. Burn is typically an aggro deck, but against very fast decks, it has to play more of a controlling role (e.g. vs. infect, hammer, elves, etc.). Old-school Mardu Pyromancers was _usually_ a control/prison deck trying to grind out the long game, but there were MUs (especially vs. Tron and blue-based control decks) where it needed to land prison pieces and win quickly instead.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

So based on the ads Im now seeing, Olivia Voldarens Big Fat Vampire Wedding is going ahead.

----------


## Amechra

> So based on the ads Im now seeing, Olivia Voldarens Big Fat Vampire Wedding is going ahead.


"If you go to vampire class, I'll let you marry anyone you want, OK?"

----------


## Dienekes

So hows everyone liking the new standard?

Enjoying the lack of Eldraine. But gotta say, for The Werewolf set, Im a bit disappointed that I seem to be the only one playing werewolves. Though looking at my win rate I cant say I blame everyone else.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> So hows everyone liking the new standard?
> 
> Enjoying the lack of Eldraine. But gotta say, for The Werewolf set, Im a bit disappointed that I seem to be the only one playing werewolves. Though looking at my win rate I cant say I blame everyone else.


I agree, the last set felt really weak.

I think WotC is taking a note from 5e and is trying to appeal to newer players, which means fewer good "competitive" effects. The shift from Hexproof to Ward, normal zombies to Decayed, Foretell instead of kickers, are all examples of that.  The game feels like it's becoming more interactive, more predictable (and, personally, more fun).  But that also means it's getting weaker.

It doesn't bode well for those of us who already have stacks of good cards, although that's less of a priority to me than most, I think.

----------


## noob

> I agree, the last set felt really weak.
> 
> I think WotC is taking a note from 5e and is trying to appeal to newer players, which means fewer good "competitive" effects. The shift from Hexproof to Ward, normal zombies to Decayed, Foretell instead of kickers, are all examples of that.  The game feels like it's becoming more interactive, more predictable (and, personally, more fun).  But that also means it's getting weaker.
> 
> It doesn't bode well for those of us who already have stacks of good cards, although that's less of a priority to me than most, I think.


arguably stuff like "ward 10" is going to often be stronger than hexproof until we get cards that allows bypass ward efficiently and for cheap (as there is for hexproof)

----------


## Binks

> I agree, the last set felt really weak.
> 
> I think WotC is taking a note from 5e and is trying to appeal to newer players, which means fewer good "competitive" effects. The shift from Hexproof to Ward, normal zombies to Decayed, Foretell instead of kickers, are all examples of that.  The game feels like it's becoming more interactive, more predictable (and, personally, more fun).  But that also means it's getting weaker.
> 
> It doesn't bode well for those of us who already have stacks of good cards, although that's less of a priority to me than most, I think.


Hexproof still exists, and is still regularly used. Midnight Hunt has a perfectly normal amount of Hexproof (2 creatures, 1 other card, which matches up with a random selection of sets going back to when it was introduced), it's _always_ been a rare effect. Adding Ward just lets them print weaker (ish) Hexproof more frequently, but they're clearly not getting rid of the effect.

Rosewater has already confirmed that Decayed is a thing for right now, not a permanent change. It's a new tool they added, but they're clearly not afraid of printing standard zombie tokens since they literally did that last set.

Foretell and Kicker are completely unrelated mechanics. Did you mean a different keyword? Because they don't even have much to do with one another (no more than most mechanics have to do with Kicker)

----------


## Amechra

A bit of a weird question, but... what are people's favorite characters we haven't gotten a card for yet? I'm fond of Matoc the lavamancer and Cevraya the Golgari Shaman.

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> arguably stuff like "ward 10" is going to often be stronger than hexproof until we get cards that allows bypass ward efficiently and for cheap (as there is for hexproof)


Counter-counters work.  If you have an ability that says that "Spells can't be countered", it applies to warded creatures since that's how they get rid of those effects (as opposed to Hexproof's true avoidance).

Also, I'm not sure what works on Hexproof that doesn't work on Ward, since they both use similar "Target" language, and I doubt they'll scale things up to Ward 10 very often, most of what I see is Ward 2.




> Hexproof still exists, and is still regularly used. Midnight Hunt has a perfectly normal amount of Hexproof (2 creatures, 1 other card, which matches up with a random selection of sets going back to when it was introduced), it's _always_ been a rare effect. Adding Ward just lets them print weaker (ish) Hexproof more frequently, but they're clearly not getting rid of the effect.
> 
> Rosewater has already confirmed that Decayed is a thing for right now, not a permanent change. It's a new tool they added, but they're clearly not afraid of printing standard zombie tokens since they literally did that last set.
> 
> Foretell and Kicker are completely unrelated mechanics. Did you mean a different keyword? Because they don't even have much to do with one another (no more than most mechanics have to do with Kicker)


I don't necessarily mean that things are fully getting replaced, just a trend that seems very consistent.  The vampires from this set, for instance, combo by dealing minor amounts of damage to you before playing cards, so it's incredibly telegraphed, even for newer players, and there are very few high damage combos you can pull off with abilities alone. You _have_ to play around normal combat if you want to win, with most of your strategies laid bare, despite being a deck that leverages direct damage regularly.

Werewolves, too, utilize a mechanic that your opponent can directly interact with by transforming them back by changing the number of cards you play.  Even Humans can be meddled with by removing one of their pieces in their Coven setup. 

 Given, that's all within the last set, but the previous sets have similar schemes that promote interactivity with weaker cards.

As for Foretell and Kicker, I was referring to the idea of "Casting a spell in a more expensive way".  Kicker does it through mana, a hard-to-change mechanic and they're usually ETB, so it's not really anything your opponent can do anything about.  Foretell, on the other hand, has you pay a cost sooner to cast a telegraphed spell later, like a better version of Suspend.   Kicker spends mana, Foretell costs time and surprise, but both essentially fill a similar goal of "Do this thing at a higher cost for a better effect", one just happens to be easier for your opponent to play around.

----------


## enderlord99

> Also, I'm not sure what works on Hexproof that doesn't work on Ward


These seven

----------


## Man_Over_Game

> These seven


Ah, duh, for some reason I thought there was some kind of weird rules interaction that worked around it, but you're right.  Thank you.

----------


## Amidus Drexel

There are also some unusual edge cases worth mentioning (especially in older formats with larger card pools) where you can get value by just being _able_ to cast a spell or target a creature, even if your spell won't resolve (due to ward or some other ability).

For example, giving Phantasmal Image hexproof is _much_ more useful than giving it ward 10, and you can make a blocker with Shark Typhoon + a removal spell against a creature with ward 10, but not against one with hexproof.

----------


## Dienekes

> A bit of a weird question, but... what are people's favorite characters we haven't gotten a card for yet? I'm fond of Matoc the lavamancer and Cevraya the Golgari Shaman.


For the longest time that was Jaya Ballard. I was very happy when she got a card in Time Spiral and became a mainstay Planeswalker.

General Khurzog has a place in my heart for my personal favorite flavor text in Orcish Artillery. 

Astor the Upstart for having a fun little story where he makes a dragon's head explode. 

And I'm not really certain if she counts as not having a card, since she does appear as a creature on three cards. But I like Mileva of the Tenth District and hope she becomes a legend at some point.

----------


## Androgeus

> As for Foretell and Kicker, I was referring to the idea of "Casting a spell in a more expensive way".  Kicker does it through mana, a hard-to-change mechanic and they're usually ETB, so it's not really anything your opponent can do anything about.  Foretell, on the other hand, has you pay a cost sooner to cast a telegraphed spell later, like a better version of Suspend.   Kicker spends mana, Foretell costs time and surprise, but both essentially fill a similar goal of "Do this thing at a higher cost for a better effect", one just happens to be easier for your opponent to play around.


This is the most convoluted every mechanic is kicker Ive seen.

----------


## noob

> This is the most convoluted every mechanic is kicker Ive seen.


Except "can not be countered" which is approximatively the opposite of kicker

----------


## Giggling Ghast

> So hows everyone liking the new standard?
> 
> Enjoying the lack of Eldraine. But gotta say, for The Werewolf set, Im a bit disappointed that I seem to be the only one playing werewolves. Though looking at my win rate I cant say I blame everyone else.


I have a Midnight Hunt Werewolf deck, though unfortunately its a bit underpowered. Vampires are more my thing anyway.

Personally, Ill be glad to see Zendikar Rising rotated out. Lifegain decks dominate the field in Arena and losing Kor Celebrant will go a long way to balancing them.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

I want to add that Croaking Counterpart is one of my favourite cards of the set. Yes, its goofy, but youd be surprised how much mileage you can get out of two 1/1 Clones.

----------


## RayGallade

> So hows everyone liking the new standard?
> 
> Enjoying the lack of Eldraine. But gotta say, for The Werewolf set, Im a bit disappointed that I seem to be the only one playing werewolves. Though looking at my win rate I cant say I blame everyone else.


I'm having a lot of fun running a Selesnya Teleportation Circle deck. Granted, I'm currently only running Overgrown Farmlands as my only MID cards in it, but it is quite fun to abuse enters the battlefield effects. Skyclave Apparitions for everyone!

----------


## Personification

Happy Crimson Vow preview season, everyone!
*Spoiler: undefined*
Show

----------


## LaZodiac

Chandra has an amazing dress and Kaya never looks less than badass. Excited for vampire wedding.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

I have to admit, I laughed at the flavour text for Massive Might.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Amechra

> Chandra has an amazing dress


Yes.

*Spoiler: Spoiled because it's a card*
Show

----------


## Emmerlaus

> Yes.
> 
> *Spoiler: Spoiled because it's a card*
> Show


I prefer the regular art strangely

----------


## Amechra

I can see why (it's more dynamic), but the alt-art is the one where she's in her amazing party dress.

I also personally prefer it because we have a lot of art of Chandra fighting stuff, and not much art of her chilling at a party.

----------


## Dienekes

> I have a Midnight Hunt Werewolf deck, though unfortunately its a bit underpowered. Vampires are more my thing anyway.


Bah, gaudy leeches with delusions of grandeur. Give me the twisted body horror of the feral rage within us all any day. 




> Personally, Ill be glad to see Zendikar Rising rotated out. Lifegain decks dominate the field in Arena and losing Kor Celebrant will go a long way to balancing them.


Yeah, thats a popular deck. And more than a little annoying. Though I personally prefer facing it than the various Blue/Red decks.




> I'm having a lot of fun running a Selesnya Teleportation Circle deck. Granted, I'm currently only running Overgrown Farmlands as my only MID cards in it, but it is quite fun to abuse enters the battlefield effects. Skyclave Apparitions for everyone!


Yeah Ive seen some very funny things with teleport circle. That just seems a great card for funny nonsense.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

I think Blue/Red Decks are going to get worse with the introduction of Alchemical Gambit, which gives an extra turn for three mana.   :Small Sigh:

----------


## mythmonster2

> I think Blue/Red Decks are going to get worse with the introduction of Alchemical Gambit, which gives an extra turn for three mana.


We've seen these types of extra turn spells before, including one in the latest return to Ravnica, and they pretty much never see play.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

Yeah, but this one lets you avoid the You lose the game effect for seven mana.

----------


## Dienekes

> I think Blue/Red Decks are going to get worse with the introduction of Alchemical Gambit, which gives an extra turn for three mana.


Perhaps, though, personally I think it wont see more than maybe two copies in decks already running Alrunds.

So, a friend of mine was talking about the Midnight Hunt story, and I wanted to hear from you guys if his take was in any way right. 

*Spoiler*
Show


According to him, the werewolf story is really just about the vampires. Take them out and not much changes. 

The nights are getting longer, to fix it the protagonists seek help, mainly from the two main vampires of the setting Sorrin and Olivia. Then when they do collect the MacGuffin pieces and fix it Olivia flies in and takes control. 

The werewolves of the werewolf story are basically reduced to one minor grudge match between ex lovers or something. 



Now admittedly the friend that told me this has some, Ill say, interesting takes on stories. But I wanted to hear from you lot if this is in any way correct. Because thatd be disappointingly amusing for me.

----------


## Spore

> We've seen these types of extra turn spells before, including one in the latest return to Ravnica, and they pretty much never see play.


Possibly, but I have run and seen the Boros one in an Aurelia Aggro/Midrange deck back in the day.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Perhaps, though, personally I think it wont see more than maybe two copies in decks already running Alrunds.
> 
> So, a friend of mine was talking about the Midnight Hunt story, and I wanted to hear from you guys if his take was in any way right. 
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> According to him, the werewolf story is really just about the vampires. Take them out and not much changes. 
> ...


That's inaccurate. The vampires come in at the last minute for a surprise "**** you you don't get to win!", but otherwise the werewolves are vital to the werewolf set.

----------


## Emmerlaus

> I can see why (it's more dynamic), but the alt-art is the one where she's in her amazing party dress.
> 
> I also personally prefer it because we have a lot of art of Chandra fighting stuff, and not much art of her chilling at a party.


Meh, I would have prefer she started to kill with that "amazing party dress" and have her simply look good in that normal art AWESOME dress. The original art look a bit more to my taste, no matter how dynamic it looks. 

The only thing I find weird on her original art dress is that tube thing on her shoulder. Not sure what that is. Bit otherwise, that dress is more beautiful... and clash more with Innistrad vampire sense of fashion. Seem even more provocative this way.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Meh, I would have prefer she started to kill with that "amazing party dress" and have her simply look good in that normal art AWESOME dress. The original art look a bit more to my taste, no matter how dynamic it looks. 
> 
> The only thing I find weird on her original art dress is that tube thing on her shoulder. Not sure what that is. Bit otherwise, that dress is more beautiful... and clash more with Innistrad vampire sense of fashion. Seem even more provocative this way.


The tube is the regulator her parents gave her as a kid way back when. She sort of incorporated it into her outfit once she grew older.

And yeah, her dress outfit is clearly designed to provoke and be like, enticing. Wearing red at someone's wedding is one of the biggest faux pax you can DO, next only to wearing white as well, and given she's also a pyromancer and how that evokes vampire's weaknesses, it is clearly intended as an open threat.

----------


## Dienekes

> That's inaccurate. The vampires come in at the last minute for a surprise "**** you you don't get to win!", but otherwise the werewolves are vital to the werewolf set.


Good good. For a story I don't really want to read, it is crucial important that the fury rage monsters are treated well.

----------


## TeChameleon

So, this is my first time posting to this thread... is it kosher to request deckbuilding help here?  I've got a stompy dinosaur deck in Arena (for... historic brawl, I think is the format..?  Not great with knowing which is what) that seems to be standing the test of time, but I think there's room for improvement.  See it here if such things are allowed.

----------


## Spore

> So, this is my first time posting to this thread... is it kosher to request deckbuilding help here?  I've got a stompy dinosaur deck in Arena (for... historic brawl, I think is the format..?  Not great with knowing which is what) that seems to be standing the test of time, but I think there's room for improvement.  See it here if such things are allowed.


Why should this be "not allowed"? I like Drover of the Mighty as acceleration as they are beatsticks with a dino out, but Paradise Druids are better protected.. Similarly Savage Stomp is imho the superior fight spell, I would advise for more Thrashing Brontodons, also Ripjaw Raptors and Ranging Raptors are nice card draw and ramp. Commune with Dinosaurs is worth a second look for more lands and Dinosaurs. Rampaging Brontodon is too slow, I would switch it for a second Ghalta. Shifting Ceratops is a nice card vs blue.

I really don't like some cards in your deck. Ram through is a better Rabid Bite (fight mechanic would let you trigger Enrage, plus your creatures should be bigger than your enemies).Inscription of Abundance has more options to dump superfluous mana. Heck, Primal Might is a better card.

Blanchwood Armor should just leave. Replace it with creatures. Just fill up on Thrashing Brontodons or Runic Armasaurs. Consider going Gruul for Regisaur Alpha, the card was the backbone of my Dino deck when I started Arena (though at the time I played it in standard).

----------


## noob

> So, this is my first time posting to this thread... is it kosher to request deckbuilding help here?  I've got a stompy dinosaur deck in Arena (for... historic brawl, I think is the format..?  Not great with knowing which is what) that seems to be standing the test of time, but I think there's room for improvement.  See it here if such things are allowed.


Is the land untapping elf available?
Since you have a land enchantment the land untapping elf is essentially better than a lianowar elf.(same mana cost, can do the same thing, can provide 2 mana when you have the enchantment on a land)

----------


## Spore

> Is the land untapping elf available?
> Since you have a land enchantment the land untapping elf is essentially better than a lianowar elf.(same mana cost, can do the same thing, can provide 2 mana when you have the enchantment on a land)


Llanowar is cheaper and faster though. Stompy has a subtheme of tempo, if your big creatures dont hit the field fast enough your mana dork could create three mana if they are already facing viable enemy creatures.

----------


## noob

> Llanowar is cheaper and faster though. Stompy has a subtheme of tempo, if your big creatures dont hit the field fast enough your mana dork could create three mana if they are already facing viable enemy creatures.


The untap elf I was talking about costs g.
How is the lianowar elf cheaper and faster: you will necessarily have at least one forest when you play a lianowar elf or the untap elf.
https://scryfall.com/card/a25/160/ar...utm_source=api
His deck have only forests as lands so he should probably be using that elf if it is available.
hence my question which was: is it available(I just forgot what name it had)

----------


## Techwarrior

> The untap elf I was talking about costs g.
> How is the lianowar elf cheaper and faster: you will necessarily have at least one forest when you play a lianowar elf or the untap elf.
> https://scryfall.com/card/a25/160/ar...utm_source=api
> His deck have only forests as lands so he should probably be using that elf if it is available.
> hence my question which was: is it available(I just forgot what name it had)


There's an untap elf in historic and I believe current standard for 1G. That's probably why there was confusion. Arbor Elf is not legal in that format.

----------


## Amechra

Arbor Elf isn't Historic legal, which is _probably_ for the best. And I'm saying this as one of those degenerates who _loves_ turbo-ramp.

...

Looking over your list, TeChameleon... I hate to say this, but it looks like it needs a _bunch_ of work.

Your game plan looks like:

 Play a bunch of ramp. Ramp into a big dino. ??? Profit!

However, your list doesn't have very good synergy with itself  you actually have _too much ramp_, and auras are generally pretty terrible unless you're using them on creatures that have Ward or Hexproof. I'm actually having a little trouble with giving you advice about what to cut, because my first instinct is "all of it  start over".

Personally, I'd use the following as the core of my _personal_ Mono-Green Historic Dinosaur Stompy deck:

4x Llanowar Elves
3x Commune with Dinosaurs

3x Ranging Raptors
3x Ripjaw Raptor
3x Thrashing Brontodon

4x Savage Stomp

As many copies of Castle Garenbrig as I can get without breaking the bank.

You have a little ramp, some nicely-sized creatures, and cheap removal spell that triggers your dinos' abilities (Ranging Raptor finds you more lands and Ripjaw draws you a card).

_Then_ I'd toss in a few copies of Ghalta and Carnage Titan or whatever.

----------


## Tvtyrant

> So, this is my first time posting to this thread... is it kosher to request deckbuilding help here?  I've got a stompy dinosaur deck in Arena (for... historic brawl, I think is the format..?  Not great with knowing which is what) that seems to be standing the test of time, but I think there's room for improvement.  See it here if such things are allowed.


With all decks the question is "am I the control or the aggressor?" If you are the aggressor you need to have threats that kill the opponent more rapidly then they outvalue you, and if you are control you want to delay dying until you outvalue the opponent.

This deck is too slow to be the aggressor except against blue control decks, and doesn't slow down aggressive decks enough to get to the bombs. Stompy tends to curve out at three drops for this reason with creatures like Leatherback Baloth which are really big for that cheap.

So the question is how do you slow them down or speed yourself up? I don't know the format so I can't tell you exactly what to do, but looking at Tron in Pauper vs. Modern vs. Post in Legacy would help.

Pauper tron uses Moment's Peace which is a fog with flashback. That grants two turns against aggro, by which time they probably have Tron and go over the opponent.

Modern Tron has board wipes and is blindingly fast, turn 3 tron is fairly normal so they get 7 drops turn 3. Then they gum up the board with giant lifelinkers, or Karn starts killing things, etc.

Legacy Post uses lands which act as fogs, Maze of Ith and Glacial Chasm, to keep then alive until they cast Eldrazi and win.

I would look at reducing your curve regardless of approach, and then choosing whether to turn some ramp into aggressive creatures or control effects.

----------


## TeChameleon

Unless I messed up the search string, Arbor Elf doesn't exist in Arena.  Closest equivalent is Sculptor of Winter (one green and one colourless) or Jaspera Sentinel (tap both this card and another creature), which I don't... _think_ offer enough benefit to be worth swapping out?

I made this deck in 2019, then kinda fell outta playing MtG:A because no-one I knew played and games against strangers were kind of eh.

Replaced Rabid Bite with Savage Stomp- RB was mostly in there because it was what I had at the time, and I haven't really updated this deck since, well, 2019.  Well, that and the Karl Kopinski art made me laugh.  Like the Paradise Druid suggestion as well- did them rather than Drover of the Mighty since I already had 3/4 of the Druids, so didn't need to burn as many wildcards to get 'em.

I've actually gotten consistently decent results with Blanchwood Armor, not sure why it's considered bad.

Er... consider going Gruul?  I'm not sure what that means.  Part of the reason I asked for help here is because I don't know much about deck building, _especially_ the jargon, and Playgrounders are usually patient enough to explain things to the clueless.  That being said, while the Regisaur Alpha looks like it has some decent abilities, it... hrm.  Not sure how to put this; it doesn't really fit the feel of the deck (which is mostly 'summon big stompy dinosaur, make bigger and stompier').

----------


## Amechra

Gruul means that the deck runs Green cards _and_ Red cards  all of the two- and three-color combinations have their own nicknames.

The thing about Regisaur Alpha is that it makes Ghalta cost 7 less, _and_ it makes it so that you can attack with Ghalta or Carnage Tyrant the turn you play them, which is _effectively_ like playing them a turn early.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

Just to add to what Amechra said, Gruul is the Red/Green guild of Ravnica. Hence the nickname.

I played an odd opponent on Arena tonight. His entire deck seemed to be Red burn spells! He only had one creature that brought a burn spell back from the graveyard.

----------


## TeChameleon

Ah, thank you.

... *sigh*

Wellp, guess I need to work on my deckbuilding skills.  Appreciate the help, not sure where to go from here- I simply don't know enough to really even parse all the advice properly, and I'm not sure I want to invest that heavily in figuring out a game  :Small Confused: 

Dunno, will leave it lie for now I think.  Thanks again.

----------


## Amechra

> I played an odd opponent on Arena tonight. His entire deck seemed to be Red burn spells! He only had one creature that brought a burn spell back from the graveyard.


That's what we call "burn", my friend.  :Small Tongue: 

In all seriousness, that's what burn looked like back before they started pushing creatures and stopped printing good burn spells.

----------


## Techwarrior

Yea, even Modern Burn lists only run about 12-13 creatures main with a few in the sideboard, and they have access to the best aggressive creatures ever. Red aggro decks in standard formats are generally creature heavy because there isn't enough burn that's worth playing to make a 60 card deck. In formats where that is the case, blanking removal by playing more burn is excellent for the strategy. You get to ignore so much of your opponent's interaction when every spell you cast is a variant of deal 3-4 damage. 

In Modern a creature generally needs to be worth at least 4 damage before you feel good about it, although 2 and a removal spell is usually acceptable. That's why turn 1 Goblin Guide is so powerful for that deck. You usually can get 4 damage and a removal there. I speak mostly about modern variants of Burn because that's the format I have the most experience with the archetype.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

> That's what we call "burn", my friend. 
> 
> In all seriousness, that's what burn looked like back before they started pushing creatures and stopped printing good burn spells.


Ive heard of burn decks, but they usually have at  least some low-cost Haste monsters, dont they? They just ran out of cards that could hit me.

I guess I should stress again that Im playing Arena, and you tend to see the same type of decks over and over again. This was the first burn deck Ive seen on there, and it was kind of a weird burn deck.

----------


## Binks

> Just to add to what Amechra said, Gruul is the Red/Green guild of Ravnica. Hence the nickname.
> 
> I played an odd opponent on Arena tonight. His entire deck seemed to be Red burn spells! He only had one creature that brought a burn spell back from the graveyard.


If not for the fact I wasn't playing Arena today, I'd say that might have been me lol :P. I have an almost all instants/sorceries burn deck I run whenever I want to grind a "cast X red spells" daily. You'd be surprised how many decks don't deal with creature light strategies well on Arena, even if burn is garbage slow nowadays. And, even when it doesn't work, the games are at usually at least fast and you can easily get 5-10 red spells cast per game most times.

----------


## Techwarrior

> Ive heard of burn decks, but they usually have at  least some low-cost Haste monsters, dont they? They just ran out of cards that could hit me.
> 
> I guess I should stress again that Im playing Arena, and you tend to see the same type of decks over and over again. This was the first burn deck Ive seen on there, and it was kind of a weird burn deck.


There are times where you want to be on a creature-less build in burn. If you expect a ton of the relevant interaction your opponent to bring to be removal then cutting creatures can be the right play. It's also possible your opponent was on a very light creature build and just never drew a creature. 

Going back to Modern, if I was playing against UWx control for example and I knew their 75 was a build that was counterspell light and was loaded with removal then I could see trying to get as many of my creatures sided out as possible. 12 creatures is a lot to board out though, and generally isn't worth the trouble in practice, but boarding out slower or particularly low impact creatures is generally the right call in such matchups. As an example, Grim Lavamancer is almost never going to be in my 60 after board against any UW deck since it doesn't do anything the turn it comes down.

----------


## Spore

> [A lot of modern hubbub]


This is Arena we are talking. Historic is the format (going back to Kaladesh at the earliest). That being said Blue/White Tron, Red Burn and some sacrifice decks are kinda meta defining, so you need to survive a bit of damage, try to be able to destroy enchantment or creatures and try to not have creatures that die to fast removal (Fatal Push, so 1 CMC is LLanowar Elves, otherwise look for CMC 3 and above).

----------


## Tvtyrant

> This is Arena we are talking. Historic is the format (going back to Kaladesh at the earliest). That being said Blue/White Tron, Red Burn and some sacrifice decks are kinda meta defining, so you need to survive a bit of damage, try to be able to destroy enchantment or creatures and try to not have creatures that die to fast removal (Fatal Push, so 1 CMC is LLanowar Elves, otherwise look for CMC 3 and above).


That's not modern hubub, that's every format. Old School, Premodern, Vintage, Legacy, Modern, Pauper, Standard. If you made a new format someone would play red deck wins and it would still be true.

MTG is not a game where you can sit there and do nothing for 5 turns and then slam a giant fatty. For instance, I looked through the historic green creatures and you can make a really fast stompy deck that kills turn 3 sometimes and turn 4 usually. You have to do _something_  before turn 3 or you will just die a good portion of the time.


I would probably go something like this:

4 Turntimber Symbiosis
4 Khalni Ambush
4 Tangled Florahedron
4 Lair of the Hydra
18 forest
3 Druid Class
4 Arboreal Grazer
4 Llanowar Tribe
4 Thrashing Brontodon

For the base package, season with stuff like vivien, verdant command, etc. to taste. Turntimber is ramp both ways, lets you use ghalta a lot easier. Ambush is both lands and removal, tangled is ramp if you cast it early or lands later.

----------


## Personification

> That's not modern hubub, that's every format. Old School, Premodern, Vintage, Legacy, Modern, Pauper, Standard. If you made a new format someone would play red deck wins and it would still be true.
> 
> MTG is not a game where you can sit there and do nothing for 5 turns and then slam a giant fatty. For instance, I looked through the historic green creatures and you can make a really fast stompy deck that kills turn 3 sometimes and turn 4 usually. You have to do _something_  before turn 3 or you will just die a good portion of the time.
> 
> 
> I would probably go something like this:
> 
> 4 Turntimber Symbiosis
> 4 Khalni Ambush
> ...


That's 34 lands, 4 llanowar's, and no real high end. Is the win on ulting Druid Class?

On an unrelated note, who'd ready for Blade Odric to join the reluctant vampire club with Crovax, Arvad, AU-Mirri, and, to a lesser extent, Yahenni?

----------


## noob

> That's 34 lands, 4 llanowar's, and no real high end. Is the win on ulting Druid Class?
> 
> On an unrelated note, who'd ready for Blade Odric to join the reluctant vampire club with Crovax, Arvad, AU-Mirri, and, to a lesser extent, Yahenni?


They are saying that you should complete with other cards and mentions some.
So no 34 lands strategies.

----------


## enderlord99

I just had a game where I got a land with no types besides "land" and with the following abilities:

HexproofIndestructable"You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game"
It took more than an additional hour after that for my opponent to concede.  I'm not complaining; I'm just confused as to what they expected to happen.

----------


## noob

> I just had a game where I got a land with no types besides "land" and with the following abilities:
> 
> HexproofIndestructable"You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game"
> It took more than an additional hour after that for my opponent to concede.  I'm not complaining; I'm just confused as to what they expected to happen.


They did not have a wish to pull a Bane of Bala Ged to progressively make you exile permanent cards until you had to exile that land?
(Seriously I love this card even if the mana cost makes it hard to fit in non ramp decks and the low endurance makes it fail hard against any deck with correct creatures: merely a 1 card advantage trade for 7 mana)

----------


## enderlord99

> They did not have a wish to pull a Bane of Bala Ged to progressively make you exile permanent cards until you had to exile that land?
> (Seriously I love this card even if the mana cost makes it hard to fit in non ramp decks and the low endurance makes it fail hard against any deck with correct creatures: merely a 1 card advantage trade for 7 mana)


Last time I checked, that card isn't in Arena.

----------


## Jurai

> I just had a game where I got a land with no types besides "land" and with the following abilities:
> 
> HexproofIndestructable"You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game"
> It took more than an additional hour after that for my opponent to concede.  I'm not complaining; I'm just confused as to what they expected to happen.


Ooh~!  FaceBook Combo!

----------


## Spore

> I just had a game where I got a land with no types besides "land" and with the following abilities:
> 
> HexproofIndestructable"You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game"
> It took more than an additional hour after that for my opponent to concede.  I'm not complaining; I'm just confused as to what they expected to happen.


Congrats, you figured out a 3 month old combo. For uninitiated, it is Book of Exalted Deeds on a Faceless Haven, and many competitive decks run Field of Ruin specifically for that. Wouldn't really help in your case, but you needed something to set up the indestructible and hexproof, right?

----------


## Emmerlaus

> Congrats, you figured out a 3 month old combo. For uninitiated, it is Book of Exalted Deeds on a Faceless Haven, and many competitive decks run Field of Ruin specifically for that. Wouldn't really help in your case, but you needed something to set up the indestructible and hexproof, right?


Wow I didn't even know that combo! 

Such a stupid way to win if you ask me however.  :Small Sigh:

----------


## enderlord99

> Congrats, you figured out a 3 month old combo. For uninitiated, it is Book of Exalted Deeds on a Faceless Haven, and many competitive decks run Field of Ruin specifically for that. Wouldn't really help in your case, but you needed something to set up the indestructible and hexproof, right?


Indestructible from ult-ing WAR Nissa.  Hexproof from using Lotus Field (assisted by seperate land-animation plus Maskwood Nexus) instead of Faceless Haven.

----------


## Spore

> Indestructible from ult-ing WAR Nissa.  Hexproof from using Lotus Field (assisted by seperate land-animation plus Maskwood Nexus) instead of Faceless Haven.


So it is actually just "winning harder" since ulting Nissa should win you the game anyhow.

----------


## enderlord99

> So it is actually just "winning harder" since ulting Nissa should win you the game anyhow.


Pretty much

----------


## Dienekes

> Wow I didn't even know that combo! 
> 
> Such a stupid way to win if you ask me however.


It is. It's probably a net benefit to have stuff like that in the game, enderlord99 seems proof of that. A good portion of his stories involve creating such board states where there is no way for the opponent to meaningfully interact with the game. So there is definitely an audience for that style of gameplay.

I personally, just despise that stuff. Mostly because the process to get to that point more than the win condition themselves, though. I've never yet played against a deck that revolves around janky win conditions that were actually interesting to play against.

----------


## noob

> It is. It's probably a net benefit to have stuff like that in the game, enderlord99 seems proof of that. A good portion of his stories involve creating such board states where there is no way for the opponent to meaningfully interact with the game. So there is definitely an audience for that style of gameplay.
> 
> I personally, just despise that stuff. Mostly because the process to get to that point more than the win condition themselves, though. I've never yet played against a deck that revolves around janky win conditions that were actually interesting to play against.


I think the most interesting janky win condition is equivalents of "empty your deck then win due to cards that makes you win when the deck is empty"  but it is just combo decks and once the combo is online the game is over in the turn generally.

----------


## enderlord99

I've seen people complaining about games going for "fifteen or even twenty minutes" and thought "why are you playing the most complicated TTG in the world (discounting some RPGs) if you want it to be over quickly?"

I consider half an hour to be "a bit short, but acceptable and enjoyable" yet Aggro players find even half that "intolerably long"

My favorite games are ones with several hours worth of "both players are accomplishing something; neither player is accomplishing enough"

I know that I'm very atypical in what I like about this game.  I still like it.

----------


## Spore

Thing is, MTG has so many cool ways to win a game, including infinite combos. Arena's client however is HORRIBLE for many many things. I love Arena, because I learned to play in this system, but it is obviously inferior to actual paper when it comes to actual huge combos where a paper player just says: "I repeat this loop for 1000 times and deal 2000 damage instead of having to manually do each loop.

These are not my original thoughts, but Tolarion Community College's: https://youtu.be/b1FL1zZBZJc?t=470 (emphasis on my timestamp)

----------


## Giggling Ghast

Ive done the whole multi-hour stalemate in the past. Its pretty goddamn boring. If its a non-competitive game, Id rather just concede.

----------


## enderlord99

> Ive done the whole multi-hour stalemate in the past. Its pretty goddamn boring. If its a non-competitive game, Id rather just concede.


It's only a "stalemate" if (almost) nothing is happening.

I'm referring to when we _are_ doing cool stuff, but also surviving said cool stuff and recovering to do cooler stuff.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

I suppose its how you define cool stuff.

----------


## Dienekes

> I suppose its how you define cool stuff.


Are there counter spells flying and board wipes happening? Is the board state brought to a point where no permanent damage can happen? Is the entire tactic just to delay until your weird thing goes off?

Then no cool stuff occurred.

----------


## enderlord99

> I suppose its how you define cool stuff.


Well, yes, if you define "cool stuff" as "only things that end the game immediately" then it makes sense that you'd want short games, because you can't have more than one cool event occur per game.  That is, however, a very sad definition IMO.  If you can't enjoy a game while it's happening, only when it's over, then you should probably find different game.




> Are there counter spells flying and board wipes happening? Is the board state brought to a point where no permanent damage can happen? Is the entire tactic just to delay until your weird thing goes off?
> 
> Then no cool stuff occurred.


Countering one spell doesn't make the other spells stop being cool.  Board-wipes are themselves cool, but only if both players have emblems or similar in order to build back up quickly.  The only ways to make permanent damage "happen" are Stigma Lasher and anything that uses Poison counters, and I have as much trouble enjoying games with those as you seem to without them.  No, there is a lot more to my tactics.

Maybe from your perspective.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

> Are there counter spells flying and board wipes happening? Is the board state brought to a point where no permanent damage can happen? Is the entire tactic just to delay until your weird thing goes off?


Sounds like the height of boredom to me.

I prefer games that are kind of like dancing on the razors edge, where a single misstep or a lucky draw decides the whole match. The best matches end with both players with nearly all their life points gone and theres just one round to decide it all.

----------


## enderlord99

> The best matches end with both players with nearly all their life points gone.


I mean, yeah.  They should also get that way a few times _prior_ to the end, with people almost losing, bouncing back, almost winning, and so on until someone loses or wins for real.

----------


## Androgeus

> I consider half an hour to be "a bit short, but acceptable and enjoyable" yet Aggro players find even half that "intolerably long


The aggro player can play several games in that half hour so they play nearly as much magic (basically the same amount on Arena as pregame set up takes seconds)

----------


## enderlord99

> The aggro player can play several games in that half hour so they play nearly as much magic (basically the same amount on Arena as pregame set up takes seconds)


I understand that a dozen five-minute games is the same total amount of Magic as a single hour-long game.  I just happen to prefer the latter.

----------


## noob

> I understand that a dozen five-minute games is the same total amount of Magic as a single hour-long game.  I just happen to prefer the latter.


Some people love the mulligan decision part of the game.
It is in fact a quite complicated problem for some decks and depends on the matchup.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

> I just had a game where I got a land with no types besides "land" and with the following abilities:
> 
> HexproofIndestructable"You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game"
> It took more than an additional hour after that for my opponent to concede.  I'm not complaining; I'm just confused as to what they expected to happen.


Having now been in a similar situation, I can offer some insight: they were deliberately wasting time, either in an effort to make you concede or out of spite.

I played an opponent today in Standard whose only strategy was to hit me for one point of damage each turn with a Thermo-Alchemist and remove any creatures I put out. I literally could do nothing except put out land. It was as boring as it sounds.

Im willing to concede quickly when the game is unwinnable, but this irked me. So I stretched out my turns as long as possible and I left him waiting when to resolve effects. I wasted his time and mine.

Was it childish? Immature? Poor sportsmanship?A dink move? Oh, definitely. Ill cop to all that. But if you limit your opponents options to running out the clock, dont be surprised if they do just that.

----------


## Spore

> I understand that a dozen five-minute games is the same total amount of Magic as a single hour-long game.  I just happen to prefer the latter.


My favorite game is "aggro vs. control" when I am aggro though. Don't overextend into wipes, but build up enough pressure so the enemy has to do SOMETHING. Sadly this is the perfect balance, which is achieved seldomly. Usually it is either aggro dying out quickly, or dominating.

That is why I prefer to build midrange, with my favorite setup being vs control.

----------


## Techwarrior

> My favorite game is "aggro vs. control" when I am aggro though. Don't overextend into wipes, but build up enough pressure so the enemy has to do SOMETHING. Sadly this is the perfect balance, which is achieved seldomly. Usually it is either aggro dying out quickly, or dominating.
> 
> That is why I prefer to build midrange, with my favorite setup being vs control.


Honestly, this sounds like you prefer games that have high amounts of interaction, skill expression, and decision making. That sort of thing is how I got into Legacy personally. Once you get into the format a bit, and accept that sometimes you'll just die, Force of Will decks basically force that game type no matter what your end-game is. 

I'm personally a fan of Standstill UW, but URx Delver decks as well as Taxes have been in the format for as long as it's been a format. The cost to enter is crippling, but MtGO and various third party software make playing the format online pretty easy.

----------


## enderlord99

> Having now been in a similar situation, I can offer some insight: they were deliberately wasting time, either in an effort to make you concede or out of spite.


If they were deliberately wasting time, why would they do it by "waiting an hour to concede" rather than "never conceding, at all"

----------


## Dienekes

> If they were deliberately wasting time, why would they do it by "waiting an hour to concede" rather than "never conceding, at all"


Something came up.

----------


## Personification

> Having now been in a similar situation, I can offer some insight: they were deliberately wasting time, either in an effort to make you concede or out of spite.
> 
> I played an opponent today in Standard whose only strategy was to hit me for one point of damage each turn with a Thermo-Alchemist and remove any creatures I put out. I literally could do nothing except put out land. It was as boring as it sounds.
> 
> Im willing to concede quickly when the game is in winnable, but this irked me. So I stretched out my turns as long as possible and I left him waiting when to resolve effects. I wasted his time and mine.
> 
> Was it childish? Immature? Poor sportsmanship?A dink move? Oh, definitely. Ill cop to all that. But if you limit your opponents options to running out the clock, dont be surprised if they do just that.


They got you, as the kids say, ropin' mad!

----------


## Giggling Ghast

> Something came up.


Or they finally got bored, saw that you werent going to give up and threw in the towel.

----------


## gooddragon1

Does this deck work for casual edh? Not competitive mind you. Also, I'm not actually buying it in paper, so price tag wasn't a consideration as much.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4437587#paper

General rules of casual:
Not too many board wipes
No infinite combos
No infinite turns
No hard locks
No super fast mana
Probably others I can't remember

----------


## Giggling Ghast

To be clear, I never commented because I'm not big on Blue control decks and don't feel my advice is worth much.

That said, my one criticism is that I'm not really seeing what the win condition is here? Lots of bouncing creatures, but not a lot of weight to bring against your opponents. You might end up sweating bullets if the other player brings out anything beefy with Hexproof.

----------


## Tvtyrant

> To be clear, I never commented because I'm not big on Blue control decks and don't feel my advice is worth much.
> 
> That said, my one criticism is that I'm not really seeing what the win condition is here? Lots of bouncing creatures, but not a lot of weight to bring against your opponents. You might end up sweating bullets if the other player brings out anything beefy with Hexproof.


Agreed. I think the solution is less bounce and more stealing things. Control Magic and its many spin offs are 2f1 removal that puts a lethal threat in play and kills a creature. Also Desertion, Spell Swindle, Bribery, etc. are all good in blue for closing out games.

----------


## gooddragon1

> Agreed. I think the solution is less bounce and more stealing things. Control Magic and its many spin offs are 2f1 removal that puts a lethal threat in play and kills a creature. Also Desertion, Spell Swindle, Bribery, etc. are all good in blue for closing out games.


That's kind of mean... stealing stuff. Could cloning work? I actually changed a few things and won with a clone legion. The objective was really just to have orvar out and copy my lands. Turned out to be a hassle making that many token copies of lands though.

My thought process was:
Hmm, if I keep making token lands instead of winning they're going to get upset.
Hmm, I could make lands faster with radiate+mythos of Illuna
Hmm, if I do that it's still going to be a hassle.
Hmm, why not Cabal Coffers instead?

So not infinite mana, but a lot of mana to play with. I've thought of brudiclad and making a token land, but same problem. Even with cloudpost. Cabal Coffers + Urborg seems like an idea, but I'm just not even sure what I want to build now. Tokens? But they won't be big enough.

I kind of want to use my Diabolic Revelation+Elixir of Immortality+Some other Tutors engine to ensure I always have the cards I want, but I question whether that's casual. Just not sure.

----------


## Tvtyrant

> That's kind of mean... stealing stuff. Could cloning work? I actually changed a few things and won with a clone legion. The objective was really just to have orvar out and copy my lands. Turned out to be a hassle making that many token copies of lands though.
> 
> My thought process was:
> Hmm, if I keep making token lands instead of winning they're going to get upset.
> Hmm, I could make lands faster with radiate+mythos of Illuna
> Hmm, if I do that it's still going to be a hassle.
> Hmm, why not Cabal Coffers instead?
> 
> So not infinite mana, but a lot of mana to play with. I've thought of brudiclad and making a token land, but same problem. Even with cloudpost. Cabal Coffers + Urborg seems like an idea, but I'm just not even sure what I want to build now. Tokens? But they won't be big enough.
> ...


I don't think so? Stealing creatures is about as fair as you can be, the power of it is based on how powerful their stuff is. 

Casual is relative, but I always felt that the clunkier the combo is the more casual it is. Any combo that requires 3+ pieces or multiple pieces to combo off in a way that doesn't actually win while using a lot of mana is probably fine.

----------


## Zhentarim

Is this a good deck?
https://mtgarena.pro/decks/bant-angels-standard-2022

----------


## enderlord99

Most of you guys are alright; if you're Platinum in constructed, stay out of Historic ranked for a few days.

I'm bringing back the Trampoline Museum, and y'all don't want to encounter that.

----------


## Zhentarim

Are bant angels competitive in standard?

----------


## Mystic Muse

> Are bant angels competitive in standard?


Based on MTGGoldfish's metagame breakdown, probably not.

----------


## Techwarrior

> Are bant angels competitive in standard?


This question leaves me curious as to what is drawing you to this in the current format. A quick search reveals 1 blue angel and 1 green angel. A second search found no real payoffs to be in either U or G that aren't changelings. Unless I'm missing something I have no idea what a "bant angels" list looks like in the current format. 

To the best of my knowledge, the last time angels was competitive in standard was when Wilderness Reclamation was legal. That deck was Esper midrange though, with the payoff being the legendary Baneslayer creature.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

I only just saw this, but I guess theyre doing another Un- parody set in April, this time with an outer space circus/amusement park theme.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ond-2021-11-29

----------


## Zhentarim

> This question leaves me curious as to what is drawing you to this in the current format. A quick search reveals 1 blue angel and 1 green angel. A second search found no real payoffs to be in either U or G that aren't changelings. Unless I'm missing something I have no idea what a "bant angels" list looks like in the current format. 
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, the last time angels was competitive in standard was when Wilderness Reclamation was legal. That deck was Esper midrange though, with the payoff being the legendary Baneslayer creature.


I just like the idealist flavor of the bant set and I'm waiting on it to come back.
Also, I'm hoping that one of these days, a set comes out that gives White its chance in the sun. We could use a little idealist flavor.

----------


## Mystic Muse

> I just like the idealist flavor of the bant set and I'm waiting on it to come back.
> Also, I'm hoping that one of these days, a set comes out that gives White its chance in the sun. We could use a little idealist flavor.


Any parrticular reason for this apparent 180 in moral outlook?  :Small Wink:

----------


## Binks

> I only just saw this, but I guess theyre doing another Un- parody set in April, this time with an outer space circus/amusement park theme.
> 
> https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ond-2021-11-29


Yep. I'm in the camp of generally "meh" on un-stuff (aside from contraptions, which were awesome) but I'm looking forward to this set if for no other reason than the outside help on names/flavor text. LRR have been among my favorite comedians for over a decade so seeing cards they wrote text for seems so cool :). Fingers crossed it's mechanically interesting since it's already nailed interesting flavor and an intriguing "gimmick" :)

----------


## Giggling Ghast

Good game, my opponent with the Teferi avatar says in the opening turn, as though the game were already over. And indeed, perhaps he has the deck to back up that confidence, we're not far into the game, and he has a couple of 7/7 and 8/8 beatsticks summoned, along with with Saryth the Vipers Fang; Kohma, World Serpent; Wrenn and Seven and another planeswalker whose name escapes me.

But Im playing Red/Green Werewolves and I have a crapload of them out thanks to Howlpack Piper. (A must-have for werewolf decks, BTW.) Then I cast Ill-Tempered Loner, give it Haste thanks to Reckless Stormseeker, and his giant wall of monsters turns into a liability as I attack with everyone and transfer all the damage his monsters deal my wolves into direct damage aimed at his head. He gets brought down to -1 life and I hit the "Good game" emote just before the game ends.

That, my friends, is a lesson in hubris.

----------


## Techwarrior

> Good game, my opponent with the Teferi avatar says in the opening turn, as though the game were already over. And indeed, perhaps he has the deck to back up that confidence, we're not far into the game, and he has a couple of 7/7 and 8/8 beatsticks summoned, along with with Saryth the Vipers Fang; Kohma, World Serpent; Wrenn and Seven and another planeswalker whose name escapes me.
> 
> But Im playing Red/Green Werewolves and I have a crapload of them out thanks to Howlpack Piper. (A must-have for werewolf decks, BTW.) Then I cast Ill-Tempered Loner, give it Haste thanks to Reckless Stormseeker, and his giant wall of monsters turns into a liability as I attack with everyone and transfer all the damage his monsters deal my wolves into direct damage aimed at his head. He gets brought down to -1 life and I hit the "Good game" emote just before the game ends.
> 
> That, my friends, is a lesson in hubris.


Last I checked, admittedly this was a while ago, there wasn't a "good luck" emote and good game was as close as you could get. Not saying they necessarily weren't being a jerk, just that it's possible.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

Ill cop to the possibility I misread his intentions, but GG is generally expressed at the end of a game in Arena, not the start. And given the other evidence - Blue-Green deck, Teferi avatar - Im willing to bet he/she was more of a Seto Kaiba than a Joey Wheeler/Katsuya Jonouchi.

Also, just to be clear, Im not claiming to be a great player or even a good player. Im just making a point about the dangers of overconfidence.

----------


## enderlord99

> Last I checked, admittedly this was a while ago, there wasn't a "good luck" emote and good game was as close as you could get.


"Hello" seems much closer, to me.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

They did hit the Hello emote before Good Game. Didnt think that was relevant, but maybe it was.

----------


## Dienekes

> Good game, my opponent with the Teferi avatar says in the opening turn, as though the game were already over. And indeed, perhaps he has the deck to back up that confidence, we're not far into the game, and he has a couple of 7/7 and 8/8 beatsticks summoned, along with with Saryth the Vipers Fang; Kohma, World Serpent; Wrenn and Seven and another planeswalker whose name escapes me.
> 
> But Im playing Red/Green Werewolves and I have a crapload of them out thanks to Howlpack Piper. (A must-have for werewolf decks, BTW.) Then I cast Ill-Tempered Loner, give it Haste thanks to Reckless Stormseeker, and his giant wall of monsters turns into a liability as I attack with everyone and transfer all the damage his monsters deal my wolves into direct damage aimed at his head. He gets brought down to -1 life and I hit the "Good game" emote just before the game ends.
> 
> That, my friends, is a lesson in hubris.


Whats your werewolf deck list if you dont mind me asking? 

Im having trouble picking my finisher. I keep flopping between Huntmaster, Loner, and Caretaker. Ive been using huntmaster for getting a solid 3 bodies after a wipe. But Ive been seeing fewer boardwipes that arent meathook massacre recently.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

Keep in mind I'm playing Arena and I need some Enchantment removal to contend with the plethora of Lifegain decks and their 1.5 million Cleric Class spells. Also, I just started playing Arena a month or two ago, so dont give me grief for not having four copies of Sarulf, World Eater or whatever.

End the Festivities x2 (good for removing those pesky Halfling Innkeepers)
Cathartic Pyre x2
Outland Liberator x2
Return to Nature x2
Sporeback Wolf x2
Kessig Naturalist x4
Unnatural Moonrise x2 
Electric Revelation x2
Moonrager's Slash x2
Reckless Stormseeker x2
Howl of the Hunt x2
Dire-Strain Rampage x1
Tovolar, Dire Overlord x2
Ill-Tempered Loner x1
Hookhand ravager x2
Howlpack Piper x2 (wonderful card)
Child of the Pack x2
Wolfkin Outcast x2
Tovolar's Huntmaster x1
Mountain x11
Forest x11
Rockfall Vale x3

A typical game usually involves putting out Kessig Naturalist on Turn 2 which usually gives me the mana to cast Hookhand Ravager or Child of the Pack by Turn 3 (assuming I don't have a Tovolar in hand - he really needs to get out as soon as possible, circumstances permitting).

Child of the Pack may not seem great, but you can use her ability to summon a wolf on Turn 4, and since you haven't cast any spells, it becomes night. Howlpack Piper also works this way.




> Im having trouble picking my finisher. I keep flopping between Huntmaster, Loner, and Caretaker. Ive been using huntmaster for getting a solid 3 bodies after a wipe. But Ive been seeing fewer boardwipes that arent meathook massacre recently.


Tovolar's Huntmaster is a great card but I always seem to lose him to removal. I don't have Avabruck Caretaker but I hear she's an absolute beast; I would go with her.

----------


## Androgeus

> They did hit the Hello emote before Good Game. Didnt think that was relevant, but maybe it was.


I would definitely read that as them wishing you a good game rather than getting on a my knickers in a twist thinking they were trying to be disrespectful.

----------


## RayGallade

For anyone here who enjoys drafting, do you think it is worth putting Halana and Alena, Partners into an Orzhov Lifegain shell? I've got an Honored Heirloom and an Evolving Wilds to help fix my mana if I do. Only one Training creature, but Halana and Alena seem to be super good in limited.

Alternatively, I could splash in a Markov Waltzer instead. Without H&A or the waltzer, I have one flier and two sorceries to deal with my opponent's fliers. I did manage to assemble the Bride's Gown & Groom's Finery combo though.

----------


## Avaris

> For anyone here who enjoys drafting, do you think it is worth putting Halana and Alena, Partners into an Orzhov Lifegain shell? I've got an Honored Heirloom and an Evolving Wilds to help fix my mana if I do. Only one Training creature, but Halana and Alena seem to be super good in limited.
> 
> Alternatively, I could splash in a Markov Waltzer instead. Without H&A or the waltzer, I have one flier and two sorceries to deal with my opponent's fliers. I did manage to assemble the Bride's Gown & Groom's Finery combo though.


Probably a little late, but I can't see a double off colour splash ever being worth it. I'd even be hesitant on the waltzer. By way of comparison, yesterday I had a GW deck where I initially tried splashing Dorothea, Vengeful Victim (so needing a single blue mana) off an evolving wilds and three Islands. I somehow ended up with a couple of games where I drew 2 Islands before drawing any of one of my main colours, and never saw Dorothea. After that I went pure GW, and ended up 6-3 on the Arena draft.

Obviously, these are likely exceptional draws, but with a double off colour splash you have a very high chance of finding yourself with the mana to play Haland and Alena, not having them in hand, and not being able to play the BW cards you do have!

----------


## Zhentarim

> Any parrticular reason for this apparent 180 in moral outlook?


Its a return to a more natural state for me. When I was younger, I was more prone to help others more than myself, but having a disability, I was never valued by others. I had to compensate by becoming mean and scary and getting my needs met in unorthodox ways. Now that I've gotten into a more settled position though, I have started a movement to prevent others suffering as I have suffered, and I already have some followers.

----------


## mythmonster2

We've got our first Neon Dynasty stuff! A teaser video and a story that's the background of Kaito, our new ninja planeswalker. I absolutely love the aesthetic of this set already; they did a good job making it cyberpunk, but still recognizably Kamigawa, especially in some of the pictures from the story.

----------


## Emmerlaus

> We've got our first Neon Dynasty stuff! A teaser video and a story that's the background of Kaito, our new ninja planeswalker. I absolutely love the aesthetic of this set already; they did a good job making it cyberpunk, but still recognizably Kamigawa, especially in some of the pictures from the story.


I saw a few spoilers and Im still wary. Im sure that visually, there is going to be some awesome cards... but they dont the fantasy overral theme of MTG. Sure there was some steampunk things before but I dont think we ever had so much cyberpunk... 

But Im still somewhat excited.  :Small Smile:

----------


## LaZodiac

Kaito is gay as **** and I love him so much. Bad hair cut imho but super adorkable.

----------


## Dienekes

> I saw a few spoilers and Im still wary. Im sure that visually, there is going to be some awesome cards... but they dont the fantasy overral theme of MTG. Sure there was some steampunk things before but I dont think we ever had so much cyberpunk... 
> 
> But Im still somewhat excited.


Mostly with Emmerlaus here. Don't particularly care much about cyber-techno punk aesthetics. And having the teaser focus on someone with a cyber raccoon mask really doesn't do much for me.

But maybe some of the cards will be fun.

----------


## LaZodiac

If it helps at all, the guy with the raccoon mask is Kaito, our protagonist for the set, and the mask is a kami familiar that has bonded with a prototype origami drone made by his potential boyfriend for the express purpose of bonding kami and machine. Which means it can turn into an actual raccoon, and likely other things, like a cool animal companion.

Also, the plane isn't 100% neon cyberpunk aesthetic. There's more to it than just that, and I think you'll be able to learn to love, or at least tolerate, the glow.

----------


## Dienekes

> If it helps at all, the guy with the raccoon mask is Kaito, our protagonist for the set, and the mask is a kami familiar that has bonded with a prototype origami drone made by his potential boyfriend for the express purpose of bonding kami and machine. Which means it can turn into an actual raccoon, and likely other things, like a cool animal companion.
> 
> Also, the plane isn't 100% neon cyberpunk aesthetic. There's more to it than just that, and I think you'll be able to learn to love, or at least tolerate, the glow.


I tolerate it now. Its just not my thing. And thats fine. I just got my werewolves, and before that I had my knights. Its not like I need to be in love with every set.

----------


## Jurai

> I tolerate it now. Its just not my thing. And thats fine. I just got my werewolves, and before that I had my knights. Its not like I need to be in love with every set.


*Makes a set with WG Werewolf Knights.*  And this?

----------


## Mystic Muse

> *Makes a set with WG Werewolf Knights.*  And this?


Ah, the Powerwolf set. I'm in for this.  :Small Big Grin: 

*Venom of Venus intensifies*

----------


## noob

> Ah, the Powerwolf set. I'm in for this. 
> 
> *Venom of Venus intensifies*


Why not wereknights?
Humans by day, knights by night.

----------


## Spore

> I tolerate it now. Its just not my thing. And thats fine. I just got my werewolves, and before that I had my knights. Its not like I need to be in love with every set.


I love top-down designed sets, and I hope NEO is one of those. Naturally with that comes horrible balancing (I loved ELD, but I see what it did to the meta), but it feels so much more "vorthos-y" this way. (Just PLEASE, less parasitic gameplay ala Adventures)

As for the cyberpunk aesthetic, I hope they can do the balancing act between modernity and still having the set being "somewhat" feeling like Magic. But honestly, after Godzilla promo, Stranger Things and even a LotR secret lair, I can't see anything really jarring with the mixture of themes. After all, Magic unites Steampunk, Magepunk, classic fantasy, grim fairy tales, Asian folklore, Russian, Mongolian and other history with magic and absolutely bonkers insane stories and ideas.

Sure, let me have cyborg as a creature type, or make the graveyard a computer recycling bin. I don't care.

----------


## Androgeus

> (Just PLEASE, less parasitic gameplay ala Adventures)


Wait how are adventures parasitic? You can add a card with adventure to any deck and its perfectly functional.

Edit: you meant Adventures into the Forgotten Realms didnt you? One somewhat parasitic mechanic per set seems the norm nowadays (Mutuate, Learn, Venture)

----------


## LaZodiac

The final Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty story is up and!

B o y.

I'll have a better... run down of what all happens later, since I'm still getting through Innistrad due to various personal reasons delaying me from reading, but here are the relevant things.

*Spoiler: Nothing bad happens : )*
Show

1: Jin-Gitaxis shows up
2: The Wanderer is the Emperor of Kamigawa
3: Tamiyo gets dragged to New Phyrexia by Tezzeret, and thanks to some tech from Kamigawa is NOW A PLANESWALKER PHYREXIAN WHO KEPT HER SPARK ALSO JIN-GITAXIS HAS ALL HER IRON SCROLLS WHICH WE KNOW ARE VERY VERY BAD NEWS.

----------


## Giggling Ghast

Lot of black tears being shed for Tamiyo today.

----------


## Binks

> Lot of black tears being shed for Tamiyo today.


My favorite planeswalker... :Small Sigh: 

(I mean, it's actually a really cool idea, and I hope they'll execute on it well, but that was a bit hard to see in the spoilers)

----------


## Emmerlaus

Not reading the story, since most of it wont be used again for the next set. Maybe they are trying something for the long run though. The green one was in Kadlheim to become a god, now this one transformed a planeswalker and steal her dangerous scrolls... I wonder if the red one will be given a big power boost eventually. That would be fitting for the incoming mafia set.

In any case, from the things spoilers so far, my favorite has to be Greater Tanuki. Perfect for my Alta Palani deck. Otherwise, I still like the Atsushi dragon and the mythic white planeswalker Empress (I know they put Emperor but thats a girl. Bite me.) bbut those last two probably going to be on the costly side so I wont buy them if its the case.

----------


## LaZodiac

> My favorite planeswalker...
> 
> (I mean, it's actually a really cool idea, and I hope they'll execute on it well, but that was a bit hard to see in the spoilers)


A clearer look at the card is here.

It honestly looks excellent, and that keyword makes it clear we're seeing this again.




> Not reading the story, since most of it wont be used again for the next set. Maybe they are trying something for the long run though. The green one was in Kadlheim to become a god, now this one transformed a planeswalker and steal her dangerous scrolls... I wonder if the red one will be given a big power boost eventually. That would be fitting for the incoming mafia set.
> 
> In any case, from the things spoilers so far, my favorite has to be Greater Tanuki. Perfect for my Alta Palani deck. Otherwise, I still like the Atsushi dragon and the mythic white planeswalker Empress (I know they put Emperor but thats a girl. Bite me.) bbut those last two probably going to be on the costly side so I wont buy them if its the case.


Not sure what you mean by that, since a lot of what has shown up in stories recently has had importance throughout all of it. We learn the Wanderer's identity as the Emperor (which is not a gendered term, so use the one they gave her. Chomp.) and she's likely to be a principle character given her revenge seeking against Tezzeret. The Reality Chip Tezzy boy steals is certainly to be important to.

Vorenclex stole the Elixer from Kaldheim, but likely not for himself but for Elesh Norn. My best guess is Norn is planning on rising herself up to Phyrexian God status as the Mother of Machines. Last we saw of Urabrask (the red one) he was seemingly killed for defiance against the rest of the Praetors, so we're either getting a new red praetor or Urabrask will show up to help fight back.

----------


## Techwarrior

Compleated is an interesting mechanic, but I'm going to have to see more of it before I evaluate. Phyrexian mana was cracked in half on the good cards, but Phyrexian mana with a drawback of you pay the reduced cost is interesting design space. The problem is that you have to get something that's reasonable on both mana values. 

This Tamiyo for instance looks mostly playable at 4 mana, Ajani Vengeant was decent for example, but at 5 mana with 3 colored pips Tamiyo looks a lot less interesting unless the new standard environment is incredibly slow. The flexibility makes it a little more complicated, but I honestly don't think the 5 mana version is good.

----------


## Emmerlaus

Im glad we have a "turtle Ninja" subtype. I'll need to buy a few for my decks lol  :Small Big Grin: 

And Emperer is a gendered term. The female gender for Emperor is Empress. It's a outdated term but there is one for male and another for female, just like King and Queen. It's from another time in history and we should just accept it as it is (unless of course its stated anywhere that The Wandering Emperor/Empress specifically tell us it identify as male). But let's agree to disagree I guess.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Im glad we have a "turtle Ninja" subtype. I'll need to buy a few for my decks lol 
> 
> And Emperer is a gendered term. The female gender for Emperor is Empress. It's a outdated term but there is one for male and another for female, just like King and Queen. It's from another time in history and we should just accept it as it is (unless of course its stated anywhere that The Wandering Emperor/Empress specifically tell us it identify as male). But let's agree to disagree I guess.


Emperor is explicitly a non gendered term. There's been female kings in real life too. This isn't me trying to make it "woke" or anything, it is literally the description of the word.

Additionally, since this set is based in a Japan inspired setting, it should follow those rules... where, again, Emperor is not a gendered term.

And, even if it WAS; in Kamigawa it's not a gendered term, by the actual text. So yeah.

----------


## Dienekes

> Emperor is explicitly a non gendered term. There's been female kings in real life too. This isn't me trying to make it "woke" or anything, it is literally the description of the word.
> 
> Additionally, since this set is based in a Japan inspired setting, it should follow those rules... where, again, Emperor is not a gendered term.
> 
> And, even if it WAS; in Kamigawa it's not a gendered term, by the actual text. So yeah.


Sort of. So Emperor comes from Imperator which was very gendered. And to my knowledge its shifting use throughout Europe remained gendered while there were emperors in actual power. With figures like Maria Theresa explicitly not getting the male Emperor title, because of her gender and that leading to a whole bag of problems.

But in China and Japan, my understanding is their term for Emperor was also gendered, but that did not stop females from taking the male gendered title for themselves. There were several explicitly female emperors. Or more accurately Huangdi. That western authors just call emperors. 

Please correct me if I made a mistake there.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Sort of. So Emperor comes from Imperator which was very gendered. And to my knowledge its shifting use throughout Europe remained gendered while there were emperors in actual power. With figures like Maria Theresa explicitly not getting the male Emperor title, because of her gender and that leading to a whole bag of problems.
> 
> But in China and Japan, my understanding is their term for Emperor was also gendered, but that did not stop females from taking the male gendered title for themselves. There were several explicitly female emperors. Or more accurately Huangdi. That western authors just call emperors. 
> 
> Please correct me if I made a mistake there.


The information I've read is that the Chinese and Japanese titles were non gendered, but otherwise this all tracks. Imperator may be gendered, but the actual word Emperor just means "a monarch, and usually the sovereign ruler of an empire or another type of imperial realm" and the fact that we've mostly had male Emperors is not because "it is gendered" but because "that's just what history is like yo". The female Emperors (and Kings) put paid to the idea as well. It's an argument with no point because it's already decided. One; these terms aren't gendered. Two; no one cares, just call the character what she is called. Call her The Wanderer if you want to be disrespectful.

----------


## Emmerlaus

My main language is French. Even a table have a gender in that language. Im glad to have took an history lesson here though. Even if in French, that would have being translated into a gender in any case, ESPECIALLY if there is two words for it. So this change for me felt very woke attempt... and even with the history lesson, it still feels like that.

But blame my main language, French. I want to be respectful but for us, we have specific rules about genders to follow and its getting difficult with all the change. I'll call her the The Wanderer new planeswalker simply because its getting confusing for me. 

Back to MTG news, Lizard Blade is awesome. Kodama of the West Tree is awesome but I was too late to buy some of the cards that woud be awesome with it in my LGS online store. Runaway Trash-Bot is awesome too, I might put it in my self-mill Ghen deck

----------


## LaZodiac

> My main language is French. Even a table have a gender in that language. Im glad to have took an history lesson here though. Even if in French, that would have being translated into a gender in any case, ESPECIALLY if there is two words for it. So this change for me felt very woke attempt... and even with the history lesson, it still feels like that.
> 
> But blame my main language, French. I want to be respectful but for us, we have specific rules about genders to follow and its getting difficult with all the change. I'll call her the The Wanderer new planeswalker simply because its getting confusing for me. 
> 
> Back to MTG news, Lizard Blade is awesome. Kodama of the West Tree is awesome but I was too late to buy some of the cards that woud be awesome with it in my LGS online store. Runaway Trash-Bot is awesome too, I might put it in my self-mill Ghen deck


Something that might be good to internalize is that something being more open, like using nongendered terms and allow for trans people to be who they are and allowing nonbinary folk like Niko to be allowed their identity... it's all unambiguously good. Consider how silly your native language IS for having EVERY thing have a gender. What is female about a table? It's nonsense. So even if it feels "woke" you need to understand that that's a good thing. That's not a bad thing, and people telling you being inclusive is bad are trying to hurt you.

While I understand it might be hard to wrap your head around Emperor being non-gendered a term because you're French and that's how French language rules work... we are speaking in English. It's not that hard, especially if you do know english well enough to type it (which you clearly are). And when the Wandering Emperor gets the french translation posted I'll post it and we'll see if it's gendered or not.

Speaking of other cards; they have a tanuuki and it's properly creature type Dog and that owns! We also have a Nue, and Kappa, and other yokai and that rules!

----------


## Emmerlaus

Mtg French translation are historically bad and hilarious. Its like in the Pokémon games, where Grimer became the French word for booger lol Im not trusting it simply because the person doing the translations is using a flawed program like Google translate. 

French is a beautiful, rich and complex. Its hard for those who didnt learn it young to learn it. English is much more simple in comparison even if its more complicated then people think. Please dont insult it. Its flawed just like every language but we should respect it.

BACK TO MTG: Lizard Blades is the better Fireshriker !! And Lion Sash is so going in my bant +1/+1counter deck and replace Honored Heirloom in a few of my decks if they have white lol

----------


## Spore

I do enjoy NEO's basic concept, but my frustration with the monetization of MTGA amounts in me uninstalling it. Alchemy is a mistake and an affront in an already very predatory monetization. I stopped playing Standard 2 years ago, and with the focus on what I hated about Hearthstone (the on the fly card adjustments ruining your decks every month) I will just stop altogether.

----------


## Amidus Drexel

So, Lion Sash is a wild card. It's not exactly scavenging ooze, but "permanent" is a lot easier to hit than "creature" (hits fetchlands, for example). It being an equipment means it will be tutorable in any stoneforge mystic deck, too. 

I don't know if I'll need/want a full playset for my modern decks (D&T and Hammer), but I'll definitely try to sneak it into the maindeck for both. I can see this being a nice utility card in singleton formats too.

----------


## Techwarrior

> So, Lion Sash is a wild card. It's not exactly scavenging ooze, but "permanent" is a lot easier to hit than "creature" (hits fetchlands, for example). It being an equipment means it will be tutorable in any stoneforge mystic deck, too. 
> 
> I don't know if I'll need/want a full playset for my modern decks (D&T and Hammer), but I'll definitely try to sneak it into the maindeck for both. I can see this being a nice utility card in singleton formats too.


Lion Sash 100% goes in most white commander decks. I'd be willing to hazard a guess that it's probably pushing the upper 90+ percentile of decks that have white and aren't hyper dedicated to a particular card type (i.e. enchantress) that Lion Sash isn't. Being an equipment, artifact, and a creature means that it's tutorable by basically any of the good white tutors, and it will trigger most of the things white cares about doing while being solid yard hate and a decent threat. 

I'm totally prepared to be wrong, but this card should absolutely be a slam dunk for commander. I'm going to have to check the pre-order prices, but I'm going to pick up at least a playset of these.

----------


## Amidus Drexel

> Lion Sash 100% goes in most white commander decks. I'd be willing to hazard a guess that it's probably pushing the upper 90+ percentile of decks that have white and aren't hyper dedicated to a particular card type (i.e. enchantress) that Lion Sash isn't. Being an equipment, artifact, and a creature means that it's tutorable by basically any of the good white tutors, and it will trigger most of the things white cares about doing while being solid yard hate and a decent threat. 
> 
> I'm totally prepared to be wrong, but this card should absolutely be a slam dunk for commander. I'm going to have to check the pre-order prices, but I'm going to pick up at least a playset of these.


Yeah, it's definitely not going to get played in my stony silence + solemnity enchantress deck or my jeskai spellslinger pile (being a creature is pretty inconvenient in that deck, even if it would otherwise be upside most of the time). If I ever put that equipment deck back together, though, this will be the perfect piece of graveyard hate.

Pre-sale looks to be $4-5 right now, which is not bad.

----------


## Amechra

As a side note (and the only interesting part of a rant about how _dumb_ English is about gendering titles, even if they aren't gendered in the first place¹):

If Elizabeth II and her late husband Philip were Polish, it's entirely possible that they would have been King Elizabeth II and Queen Philip. And that would have made _way_ more sense than the backflip-y garbage of "Queen regnant" and "Prince consort".

¹ I'm sorry, Zodi, but English has a _pretty solid track record_ of referring to female _tenno_ using the word "Empress". I agree with WotC's decision to refer to The Wanderer as Emperor, but that is _100%_ not the norm in English.

----------


## LaZodiac

> As a side note (and the only interesting part of a rant about how _dumb_ English is about gendering titles, even if they aren't gendered in the first place¹):
> 
> If Elizabeth II and her late husband Philip were Polish, it's entirely possible that they would have been King Elizabeth II and Queen Philip. And that would have made _way_ more sense than the backflip-y garbage of "Queen regnant" and "Prince consort".
> 
> ¹ I'm sorry, Zodi, but English has a _pretty solid track record_ of referring to female _tenno_ using the word "Empress". I agree with WotC's decision to refer to The Wanderer as Emperor, but that is _100%_ not the norm in English.


Yeah, that's a way better way to go about it.

English having a track record of being dumb doesn't mean it's right, just that they're consistent about it. =). Glad we agree that WOTC is doing right in bucking that trend though.

----------


## Emmerlaus

Well Im glad that this consistency (and my birth language) explain why my brain is having so much trouble adjusting. Thanks for the explanation Amechra!!

Now only the Commander decks remain unspoiled. Cant wait !!! Favorite new card so far remain Lion Sash, simply because of how versatile it is and because I was really hoping this set would help me boost the power of my Bant good stuff deck. Wasnt disappointed with this card lol

----------


## Dienekes

> Well Im glad that this consistency (and my birth language) explain why my brain is having so much trouble adjusting. Thanks for the explanation Amechra!!
> 
> Now only the Commander decks remain unspoiled. Cant wait !!! Favorite new card so far remain Lion Sash, simply because of how versatile it is and because I was really hoping this set would help me boost the power of my Bant good stuff deck. Wasnt disappointed with this card lol


I have not seen all the cards, not even close really. But so far the equipment seems interesting. Lion Sash and Eater of Virtue are going straight into my Bruenor Battlehammer deck.

----------


## Zhentarim

Could you build a competitive deck in modern that is at least 70% creatures and all the creatures are flying?

----------


## enderlord99

Since we've had two Praetors in a row, three no longer sounds unlikely.  The set after New Capenna is back in time, to (if I understand correctly) an era where Black-aligned Phyrexians were in the early stages of becoming a legitimate threat.  Of the two remaining Praetors, the only one who we're likely to meet before the actual return to New Phyrexia is Black-aligned and good at infiltration of other Black factions (she has swampwalk, even!) and the plane the set will take place on is one of only two where time-travel is already known to be strongly plot-relevant (the other being Tarkir)

Does anyone else think it's probable that Sheoldred is going back in time to infiltrate Old Phyrexia and steal the lost technologies to bring to New Phyrexia, like merge-gates and whatnot?

----------


## Mystic Muse

> Could you build a competitive deck in modern that is at least 70% creatures and all the creatures are flying?


Absolutely not.





> Since we've had two Praetors in a row, three no longer sounds unlikely.  The set after New Capenna is back in time, to (if I understand correctly) an era where Black-aligned Phyrexians were in the early stages of becoming a legitimate threat.  Of the two remaining Praetors, the only one who we're likely to meet before the actual return to New Phyrexia is Black-aligned and good at infiltration of other Black factions (she has swampwalk, even!) and the plane the set will take place on is one of only two where time-travel is already known to be strongly plot-relevant (the other being Tarkir)
> 
> Does anyone else think it's probable that Sheoldred is going back in time to infiltrate Old Phyrexia and steal the lost technologies to bring to New Phyrexia, like merge-gates and whatnot?


I think Gix finally getting printed is more likely, personally.

----------


## enderlord99

> I think Gix finally getting printed is more likely, personally.


...Can't it be both?

----------


## Mystic Muse

> ...Can't it be both?


Only if there's actual time travel..if the set is just back in time, then no.

----------


## enderlord99

> Only if there's actual time travel..if the set is just back in time, then no.


Right, that's what I was wondering about.  How likely do you think it is there will be actual time travel?  Personally, I'd say a bit under 50% as things stand.

----------


## Amidus Drexel

> Could you build a competitive deck in modern that is at least 70% creatures and all the creatures are flying?


Probably not? 70% creatures means you only have 18 remaining cards for lands+spells, which is really low for an aggressive deck with no cantrips. Bant spirits was once a competitive deck in modern (though it really isn't anymore), and while they played lots of creatures and mostly fliers (noble hierarch and occasionally thalia notwithstanding), they usually played closer to 20 lands and had Aether Vials and Collected Companies bringing the noncreature spell count up.

Hell, even 5c Humans played more than 18 lands, and they were famous for playing basically 0 noncreature spells except for vial.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Since we've had two Praetors in a row, three no longer sounds unlikely.  The set after New Capenna is back in time, to (if I understand correctly) an era where Black-aligned Phyrexians were in the early stages of becoming a legitimate threat.  Of the two remaining Praetors, the only one who we're likely to meet before the actual return to New Phyrexia is Black-aligned and good at infiltration of other Black factions (she has swampwalk, even!) and the plane the set will take place on is one of only two where time-travel is already known to be strongly plot-relevant (the other being Tarkir)
> 
> Does anyone else think it's probable that Sheoldred is going back in time to infiltrate Old Phyrexia and steal the lost technologies to bring to New Phyrexia, like merge-gates and whatnot?


The next set is actually be Dominaria United, which is a return to Dominaria focused on Zhalfir and stuff. THEN we have the Brother War, which is NOT going to be part of the main story! It is JUST a retelling of The Brother War in modern time with modern cards and stuff.

So, despite all reasoning to the contrary for this entire conversation; you're somehow correct in that we're likely to get Sheoldred AND Gix, both of them. Sheoldred in United, and then Gix since he's a major player in The Brother War.

----------


## Shadow of the Sun

> Could you build a competitive deck in modern that is at least 70% creatures and all the creatures are flying?


Define "competitive". You can definitely build a deck that's around tier 2 - good enough to have game against the top decks, but it won't be top tier.

This is about as close as you'll get, I think.

----------


## enderlord99

> Any parrticular reason for this apparent 180 in moral outlook?


I know it's a bit late to point this out, but neither "Dimir to Bant" nor "Dimir to Selesnya" is a 180.  Likewise when starting from Esper.

If he were mono-black to begin with, Selesnya would be a 180, but he never claimed to be monocolor and I have no reason to believe he was.

----------


## Jurai

> I know it's a bit late to point this out, but neither "Dimir to Bant" nor "Dimir to Selesnya" is a 180.
> 
> One of them is a 78 and the other is a 104.


Then what WOULD be a 180?  Dimir to Naya?

----------


## enderlord99

> Then what WOULD be a 180?  Dimir to Naya?


Yes.  Going 180 from Dimir results in either Naya, Mono-Green, or Boros.

----------


## Mystic Muse

Black is an enemy color of white, blue is an enemy color of green, and they hopped from Neutral Evil to Neutral Good.  While you're correct on Bant, my logic for the rest of it is sound.

----------


## enderlord99

Since a _prison deck_ is one that stops its opponent from doing anything, would a deck that lets its opponent do things, but avoids letting one of those things be "actually win" be a _parole deck_?

----------


## Mystic Muse

> Since a _prison deck_ is one that stops its opponent from doing anything, would a deck that lets its opponent do things, but avoids letting one of those things be "actually win" be a _parole deck_?


I don't know, but I find the logic/idea very amusing.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## enderlord99

> I don't know, but I find the logic/idea very amusing.


Good to hear!  It's the reasoning for my recent name-change on my main Historic deck.  I called it _"Professor Google_" but now it's _Professor Parole_!

The archetype it most strongly falls into is _toolbox_, but it has a very weird toolbox.

----------


## Amidus Drexel

> Since a _prison deck_ is one that stops its opponent from doing anything, would a deck that lets its opponent do things, but avoids letting one of those things be "actually win" be a _parole deck_?


I think the usual term for that playstyle is "control", but "parole" rhymes with it and makes me laugh, so let's go with that.  :Small Big Grin: 




> The archetype it most strongly falls into is _toolbox_, but it has a very weird toolbox.


Prison(/Parole) can have toolboxes! (see: several legacy decks, including D&T, Maverick, sometimes stoneblade, many control decks, and some variations on lands; as well any GW hatebears pile and most Karn the Great Creator decks in other formats). 

The main difference is that sort of tools you end up having in your toolbox are mostly cards that say "no" or "not usually" or "not right now".  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## enderlord99

> Prison(/Parole) can have toolboxes! (see: several legacy decks, including D&T, Maverick, sometimes stoneblade, many control decks, and some variations on lands; as well any GW hatebears pile and most Karn the Great Creator decks in other formats). 
> 
> The main difference is that sort of tools you end up having in your toolbox are mostly cards that say "no" or "not usually" or "not right now".


When I say "my deck is a _toolbox deck_" I don't just mean "my deck *has* a toolbox"

I mean that it focuses heavily on the breadth of its toolbox over basically anything else, to the point that it *is* a _toolbox deck_.

----------


## Dienekes

New set out, Ill admit that kind of came up as a surprise for me. Anyone have any opinions on it? Ill admit from my limited look Im not really getting any broad strategy/deck coherence other than a general 2 color set.

Also, apparently this multicolor mob world is the home of the most mono white knightly character now that Gids is gone (and well, honestly none of the knights from the knight set left much of an impression). Didnt see that coming.

----------


## enderlord99

> New set out, Ill admit that kind of came up as a surprise for me. Anyone have any opinions on it? Ill admit from my limited look Im not really getting any broad strategy/deck coherence other than a general 2 color set.


It's supposed to be 3-color like Alara, but 2-color works, I guess.


> Also, apparently this multicolor mob world is the home of the most mono white knightly character now that Gids is gone (and well, honestly none of the knights from the knight set left much of an impression). Didnt see that coming.


Yes.  This was actually aluded to when the set was first announced, last year.

----------


## LaZodiac

> New set out, Ill admit that kind of came up as a surprise for me. Anyone have any opinions on it? Ill admit from my limited look Im not really getting any broad strategy/deck coherence other than a general 2 color set.
> 
> Also, apparently this multicolor mob world is the home of the most mono white knightly character now that Gids is gone (and well, honestly none of the knights from the knight set left much of an impression). Didnt see that coming.


Most people didn't. In her defense she's not from the part of it that is now a mafia, she's from a place that was still ravaged by Phyrexian's and born in a slave pit. She feels as out of place as anyone else here and it's kind of a big deal.

----------


## Dienekes

> It's supposed to be 3-color like Alara, but 2-color works, I guess.Yes.  This was actually aluded to when the set was first announced, last year.


Yup, that was a mistype. I do see that it is 3 color. 




> Most people didn't. In her defense she's not from the part of it that is now a mafia, she's from a place that was still ravaged by Phyrexian's and born in a slave pit. She feels as out of place as anyone else here and it's kind of a big deal.


Ahh. Always liked Elspeth, I think I might have a go at reading this set's story unless it's tripe. What's your verdict LaZodiac? I apologize if this is wrong, but I think you're the one who reads these things.

----------


## enderlord99

I also read the online story articles.  General consensus is "it would be great, if they didn't cut it off near the early middle" which is pretty much my take, too.

----------


## Zhentarim

> I know it's a bit late to point this out, but neither "Dimir to Bant" nor "Dimir to Selesnya" is a 180.  Likewise when starting from Esper.
> 
> If he were mono-black to begin with, Selesnya would be a 180, but he never claimed to be monocolor and I have no reason to believe he was.


I had become very disillusioned with working towards a better society, and the color test I came across during this time, I was Sultai. Going to Bant is a reversion, but once I had clawed my way into a somewhat stable and physically comfortable position in life, I no longer needed to be so driven to dominate and destroy people who wanted to hurt me or put me down. I can afford to work towards a world where people work together for the benefit of everyone else, at least in part because I am able to separate myself from the system somewhat.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Yup, that was a mistype. I do see that it is 3 color. 
> 
> 
> 
> Ahh. Always liked Elspeth, I think I might have a go at reading this set's story unless it's tripe. What's your verdict LaZodiac? I apologize if this is wrong, but I think you're the one who reads these things.


More or less yeah. Forgot to post about it cause I couldn't actually find the thread lol.

Anyway, story is quite good! The side stories are all very flavourful, showcasing the world and it's inhabitants, showing how... honestly kinda brutal it is. It is a mafia plane through and through, complete with a government body outside of the five families that can't do **** and all to anyone the families don't want things done to. The stories make good use of characters who actually get cards (pretty much every named character gets a card in the set or the commander stuff attached to it) and they're all rather well written,

The main story is also really good; the story of Elspeth finding her home thanks to Ajani, and realizing her home bares as many scars as she does... and that until Phyrexia is razed from the surface of existence she'll never truly feel right with herself, and thus never truly feel home no matter what plane she is on. Vivien is also here, and she teams up with, of all people, Tezzeret... and Urabrask, who of the three of them is probably the most trustworthy actually! Viviene has cooled down a bit from her "any civilization that abuses nature instead of living in harmony should be razed to the ground" mood due to her time on Ikoria, Tezzeret is by his own admission playing both sides because Elspeth REALLY has something he needs, but he really truly does not want her to win at all, and Urabrask is 100% behind bringing the flames of revolution to New Phyrexia, and has even forgone consuming people to repair his form. He's studying Halo, the magical oil of this plane that is (unknown to the people of the plane) made via fermenting the lost angels inside all of the city's splendid angel status.

The story ends with Elspeth finding most of the information she needs regarding how Old Capenna beat back the Phyrexian's (the angels of this plane, their blood is poisonous to Phyrexian's. The Archdemons betrayed them after making the flying super-city together and created the Halo system in doing so to use it to eradicate the Phyrexian's... and then most of the Phyrexian's shut off mysterious. Timeline wise it'd fit perfectly with Yawgmoth's death.) She then saves Giada, a cool young girl who is definitely smitten with her, who was giving the Cabaratti family access to unlimited Halo... because she could generate it. Because Giada was, unbeknowst to everyone, an angel (possibly half angel, with the idea that people on this plane are slowly becoming angels to compensate for all the angels dying off slowly inside statues). Giada frees all said angels, Ob Nixilis begins his conquest of the plane (killing Xander, maybe mortally wounding Jetmir, but that's about it so far as we know) and Elspeth ****s off to go tell Ajani about all she's learned, about the plane, their weapon, and Urabrask. Elspeth also gets a snazzy new sword given to her by Giada; so she's three for three for super cool blessed weapons.

If there is one negative I can say to this; It does feel a little rushed at times, to fit within the five stories structure they have now. It's not barebones, but it is pretty light. Maybe that's okay, but I'd like the return to novels... but as we've seen numerous times, the novels have a difficult time keeping with the cards, and need to be written QUICKLY, which can lead to some issues. There's really no way to win, not method that is perfect, so I'll take "heavily refined and excellently executed, but a little quick" over any other alternative.

And of course there's always the possibility of side-stories like Davriel's story, which aren't tied to a set and thus can be written in a way that is sane.

Some personal highlights
* There's a good showing of LGBTA stuff, as is usually the case nowadays. One of the side stories is about Anhelo trying to find time to make his daughter's wedding to her future wife, inbetween doing an important job. Both of these characters get cards and mechanically work well together! One of the side characters who doesn't get a mention beyond maybe like, an aside glance, is nonbinary so that's cool.
* They've clearly put a lot of thought into what the old Capenna was like, and I wouldn't be surprised if we got a supplemental or return "Kingdoms of Old Capenna" set somewhere down the line, going over more of the Kingdom Era and stuff.
* Tezzeret continues his trend of being the most ****ing nasty but also most genuinely pragmatic villains in the series. Vivien calls him on his bull**** of playing both sides even though Elspeth is absolutely going to kill him once he's done being useful and he straight up is like "yeah no **** I get that, but you need to understand how important this is to ME." He doesn't try to justify it, he just fully admits this is an incredibly stupid thing he's doing; it's just also necessary.
* Xander was my favorite of the family heads so of course he died q_q for me I guess.
* Mechanically showing that Urabrask is less nasty than the other Praetor's by having his card's non-symetrical effect actually be beneficial both ways, just more so for you, is genius.

One final note: The MTG Boom comics are apparently ****ING EXCELLENT. I've only seen bits and pieces of the Chandra comic they tried, cancelled, and then replaced with a far more successful MTG inprint. It's "canon until the main story decides otherwise" so I should really give it a check. It's finally Marit Lage! Among other things!

----------


## Laughing Dog

> New set out, Ill admit that kind of came up as a surprise for me. Anyone have any opinions on it? Ill admit from my limited look Im not really getting any broad strategy/deck coherence other than a general 2 color set.


Bant citizens works well, at least in limited.  Can't really say for constructed just yet.  Also, Broker Ascendancy is rather broken.  if it doesn't end up with the nickname Broken Ascendancy, I shall be rather off put.

----------


## enderlord99

> * Mechanically showing that Urabrask is less nasty than the other Praetor's by having his card's non-symetrical effect actually be beneficial both ways, just more so for you, is genius.


That _would_ be brilliant, but replacing your opponents' first draw each turn with an impulse isn't actually "beneficial" for them.

----------


## LaZodiac

> That _would_ be brilliant, but replacing your opponents' first draw each turn with an impulse isn't actually "beneficial" for them.


Considering the stuff his compatriots do, it's positively pillowfort level nice. But fair, it's not NECESSARILY beneficial. Still counts.

----------


## Spore

> New set out, Ill admit that kind of came up as a surprise for me. Anyone have any opinions on it? Ill admit from my limited look Im not really getting any broad strategy/deck coherence other than a general 2 color set.


The bits and bobs of new cards lend themselves to enhance existing EDH-strategies however, and not necessarily in 3-color decks. They have just good cards smattered into a standard set.

Halo Fountain is a cool card draw effect in token decks.

An Offer You Can't Refuse is 1 mana non creature counterspell for a treasure.

Cemetery Tampering fills your graveyard AND gives you a card to cast for free once your graveyard is filled with a decent amount of cards.

Ubrarask is a cool commander and also nice idea for a 99 card.

Bootlegger's Stash is great.

Vivien is a birthing pod on a stick.

----------


## The Hellbug

> Considering the stuff his compatriots do, it's positively pillowfort level nice. But fair, it's not NECESSARILY beneficial. Still counts.


It's almost never beneficial (and never is, barring other card effects that punish hand size or something).  Almost always it reads as 'your opponent has to use the first card they draw on their turn that turn or lose it' which stuffs reactive cards in a big way.  Note that they don't _get_ any extra cards, they're just forced to use their first one or lose it.  Another in a long line of red effects that try to restrict the way their opponents play to the way red stereotypically wants to play (tap out each turn, play all the cards, swing with everything etc).

----------


## LaZodiac

> It's almost never beneficial (and never is, barring other card effects that punish hand size or something).  Almost always it reads as 'your opponent has to use the first card they draw on their turn that turn or lose it' which stuffs reactive cards in a big way.  Note that they don't _get_ any extra cards, they're just forced to use their first one or lose it.  Another in a long line of red effects that try to restrict the way their opponents play to the way red stereotypically wants to play (tap out each turn, play all the cards, swing with everything etc).


True, but you get what I mean when you look at Elesh Norn who just turns any 2 or less toughness creature off forever, yeah? Urabrask is, by inches and margins, nicer.

----------


## enderlord99

> True, but you get what I mean when you look at Elesh Norn who just turns any 2 or less toughness creature off forever, yeah? Urabrask is, by inches and margins, nicer.


It's absolutely nicer than the other praetors, but it's still not different by way of concept, only magnitude.

----------


## LaZodiac

*bursts through the front door*

THREAD HOLY ****

New Secret Lair package; Pride Across the Multiverse.

Including a short story about how Huatli and Saheeli actually hooked up.

Today I am alive.

----------


## Androgeus

> Including a short story about how Huatli and Saheeli actually hooked up.


It was a great little story. It had a good sense of humour, Magic should really do more romcoms

----------


## LaZodiac

> It was a great little story. It had a good sense of humour, Magic should really do more romcoms


It was Allison Lhurs coming back to do fiction again, and god was that energy sorely missed. It was overwhelmingly charged with wonderful gay energy that almost made me unable to focus on work, hahaha.

----------


## Debatra

So WotC printed a new Commander that really likes voting. And no other cards that so much as reference that mechanic. Not even reprints.

I _tried_ to make the deck work, I really did. But there are only 16 cards in Esper that care about voting, and that's counting Tivit. And some of them wound up being cut because they just plain suck.

You know what Tivit's real home is though? Artifacts. In a standard four-man pod, you get five of them on ETB, and another five when he smacks a player in the face. It'll most likely be two Treasures and three Clues, but those are still artifacts. Affinity, Urza, Karnstructs, etc. There are a lot of ways to go about this.

----------


## enderlord99

Math is for blockers... and I'm a Quandrix. That was a funny way of admitting I durdle, in case you couldn't tell.

----------


## Fable Wright

> Since a _prison deck_ is one that stops its opponent from doing anything, would a deck that lets its opponent do things, but avoids letting one of those things be "actually win" be a _parole deck_?


No, that's a group hug deck. And depending on how you view it, much less fun than prison.  :Small Yuk:

----------


## enderlord99

> No, that's a group hug deck. And depending on how you view it, much less fun than prison.


I didn't say "*helps* its opponents do things"

I said "*lets* its opponents do things"

There's a difference.

----------


## Spore

> I didn't say "*helps* its opponents do things"
> 
> I said "*lets* its opponents do things"
> 
> There's a difference.


Akin to Shadar Silverquill's "here are +1/+1 tokens. I know you only have a single creature, but be glad I gave you ANYTHING" 
or more akin to Chaos Warp? "Your important game piece dies, but at least you get to flip your top card in your deck."

----------


## enderlord99

> Akin to Shadar Silverquill's "here are +1/+1 tokens. I know you only have a single creature, but be glad I gave you ANYTHING" 
> or more akin to Chaos Warp? "Your important game piece dies, but at least you get to flip your top card in your deck."


Neither.

More like "Sure, you've got my life below zero, but I have Lich's Mastery.  Oh, now I need to exile a bunch of things because of the damage I took?  And if I take that much damage again, which I will next turn, I'll have to exile everything (including Lich's Mastery itself) and therefore lose the game?  I think I'll exile it *now*, instead, and the trigger won't kill me because of my Gideon of the Trials.  What's that?  Gideon's gone?  Good thing my life's above zero again!" et cetera.

The opponent is doing exactly what they were already planning to do, but I survive it.

----------


## Fable Wright

> Neither.
> 
> More like "Sure, you've got my life below zero, but I have Lich's Mastery.  Oh, now I need to exile a bunch of things because of the damage I took?  And if I take that much damage again, which I will next turn, I'll have to exile everything (including Lich's Mastery itself) and therefore lose the game?  I think I'll exile it *now*, instead, and the trigger won't kill me because of my Gideon of the Trials.  What's that?  Gideon's gone?  Good thing my life's above zero again!" et cetera.
> 
> The opponent is doing exactly what they were already planning to do, but I survive it.


So it's Pillow Fort: The strategy that makes attacking you so useless that people go do something else. Primarily used in multiplayer to benefit from everybody else taking each other out and sweeping up the game afterwards. Sub-families for non-multiplayer formats include Turbofog and Stasis.

----------


## enderlord99

> So it's Pillow Fort: The strategy that makes attacking you so useless that people go do something else. Primarily used in multiplayer to benefit from everybody else taking each other out and sweeping up the game afterwards. Sub-families for non-multiplayer formats include Turbofog and Stasis.


Yeah, that sounds about right.

----------


## Techwarrior

> Neither.
> 
> More like "Sure, you've got my life below zero, but I have Lich's Mastery.  Oh, now I need to exile a bunch of things because of the damage I took?  And if I take that much damage again, which I will next turn, I'll have to exile everything (including Lich's Mastery itself) and therefore lose the game?  I think I'll exile it *now*, instead, and the trigger won't kill me because of my Gideon of the Trials.  What's that?  Gideon's gone?  Good thing my life's above zero again!" et cetera.
> 
> The opponent is doing exactly what they were already planning to do, but I survive it.


Y'know, this description is definitely the kind of thing I was expecting to see when enderlord was asked to clarify.

----------


## LaZodiac

Oh on the story front, we got a new one out of nowhere last week, straight up on the heels of the wonderfully gay "Notes For A Stranger", we get "The Garden of Flesh".

Wherein we flash back to just after Theros Underworld. Elesh Norn is having a very good and perfect day, compleat with all the things that make being praetor of the Machine Orthodoxy wonderful. Then a little wispy nonbinary ******* shows up and shows that even if Phyrexian's cannot dream, and seemingly do not sleep... they can have nightmares. It is horrifyingly gruesome, brutally dark, and is also why Elesh Norn has decided Elspeth Must Die, at any costs.

----------


## IthilanorStPete

I really enjoyed The Garden of Flesh, it was delightfully creepy. Plus, if Ashiok's going to be screwing around giving people nightmares, I'm sort of ok with targeting Elesh Norn.

Incidentally, I've just started getting back into the game after a few years (I lost interest around Ixalan). How is Wizards telling the story these days, outside the cards themselves?

----------


## LaZodiac

> I really enjoyed The Garden of Flesh, it was delightfully creepy. Plus, if Ashiok's going to be screwing around giving people nightmares, I'm sort of ok with targeting Elesh Norn.
> 
> Incidentally, I've just started getting back into the game after a few years (I lost interest around Ixalan). How is Wizards telling the story these days, outside the cards themselves?


Quite well, now. We had a minor hiccup in War of the Spark, where they wanted to get a big ole set of two books to explore the war and the fallout of it, but due to extreme time constraints rushed the **** out of it- so much so that the pretty important prequel novella (which is much better written because it was allowed to take slightly more time) released like, a handful of months after the initial book.

The fallout of this led to a complete restructuring of the story team and how it does thing. As a consequence, Elspeth's return story was never seen, which sucks because she's the current primary protagonist of this entire story arc aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah god that sucks so much doesn't it.

On the plus side, the small novels done for Eldraine and Ikoria are good (Eldraine's got some shaky writing at points but it's good, Ikoria is more solid but also has a massive disconnect with the cards and also is a villain origin story so if you don't like those you're **** out of luck).

Following that they returned purely to web fiction, five short stories within the set and five plot stories. This has led to having much more refined stories over all, but stories that are a little light in content. Zendikar Rising was fun, Strixhaven was certainly enjoyable, the twin Innistrad series started good and eventually ramped up to actually pretty incredible, Kamigawa was executed wonderfully but suffered most from the "trim all the fat" style. New Capenna was great except a lot of people who aren't quite adept at reading comprehension didn't understand the big finale which led to it kinda flopping for some.

Over all we're now fully back on track, with great story content. I'm really excited to see where Dominaria United goes, especially since after that we're getting the Brother's War revamp, which means... well, what're they going to do? That's already a story. So it'll give them more time to work on future stories, potentially!

EDIT: STRAIGHT UP FORGOT ABOUT KALDHEIM LOL! It was good too and was the actual start of the current major story arc, showing Vorinclex doing his nasty business. I completely spaced on it though oops!

----------


## IthilanorStPete

> Quite well, now. We had a minor hiccup in War of the Spark, where they wanted to get a big ole set of two books to explore the war and the fallout of it, but due to extreme time constraints rushed the **** out of it- so much so that the pretty important prequel novella (which is much better written because it was allowed to take slightly more time) released like, a handful of months after the initial book.
> 
> The fallout of this led to a complete restructuring of the story team and how it does thing. As a consequence, Elspeth's return story was never seen, which sucks because she's the current primary protagonist of this entire story arc aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah god that sucks so much doesn't it.
> 
> On the plus side, the small novels done for Eldraine and Ikoria are good (Eldraine's got some shaky writing at points but it's good, Ikoria is more solid but also has a massive disconnect with the cards and also is a villain origin story so if you don't like those you're **** out of luck).
> 
> Following that they returned purely to web fiction, five short stories within the set and five plot stories. This has led to having much more refined stories over all, but stories that are a little light in content. Zendikar Rising was fun, Strixhaven was certainly enjoyable, the twin Innistrad series started good and eventually ramped up to actually pretty incredible, Kamigawa was executed wonderfully but suffered most from the "trim all the fat" style. New Capenna was great except a lot of people who aren't quite adept at reading comprehension didn't understand the big finale which led to it kinda flopping for some.
> 
> Over all we're now fully back on track, with great story content. I'm really excited to see where Dominaria United goes, especially since after that we're getting the Brother's War revamp, which means... well, what're they going to do? That's already a story. So it'll give them more time to work on future stories, potentially!
> ...


Thanks for the update! I'd heard some things about War of the Spark not working well, which definitely sucks, though I wasn't too invested in the Bolas arc anyways.

There wasn't _any_ story for Theros: Beyond Death?! That really sucks.

I'm glad they've returned to the web stories, those are nice and accessible.

I'm definitely looking forward to the Brother's War set; I reread the old Brother's War book (and _Planeswalker_; I'm happy to see that Xantcha got a card) recently. I don't know how much of that old fluff they'll stick to, but I hope they keep the general feel of the Brother's War as this exhausting, years-long struggle between the stubborn personalities of Urza and Mishra, that consumes more and more of Dominaria as the war goes on.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Thanks for the update! I'd heard some things about War of the Spark not working well, which definitely sucks, though I wasn't too invested in the Bolas arc anyways.
> 
> There wasn't _any_ story for Theros: Beyond Death?! That really sucks.
> 
> I'm glad they've returned to the web stories, those are nice and accessible.
> 
> I'm definitely looking forward to the Brother's War set; I reread the old Brother's War book (and _Planeswalker_; I'm happy to see that Xantcha got a card) recently. I don't know how much of that old fluff they'll stick to, but I hope they keep the general feel of the Brother's War as this exhausting, years-long struggle between the stubborn personalities of Urza and Mishra, that consumes more and more of Dominaria as the war goes on.


They did have a story summary of "here is what we wanted the novel to be", so we know the deets of what happened, but otherwise... yeah.

Yeah I'm SUPER excited for Brother War. What I want them to do is just... reprint the book with modern art, and then use this time to refine the stories coming up. If we get any story content that isn't old, let it be like... super side things or "people in modern day reacting to this story".

----------


## Androgeus

Anyone done any Bualdur's Gate drafts? I made a pretty sweet near mono-red deck helmed by Gut, True Soul Zealot and Inspiring Leader. I spent most of the draft just picking red cards that made treasure. I had like 3 Marching Duodrones.

----------


## Personification

> *Spoiler: A summary of post-WAR story publishing*
> Show
> 
> Quite well, now. We had a minor hiccup in War of the Spark, where they wanted to get a big ole set of two books to explore the war and the fallout of it, but due to extreme time constraints rushed the **** out of it- so much so that the pretty important prequel novella (which is much better written because it was allowed to take slightly more time) released like, a handful of months after the initial book.
> 
> The fallout of this led to a complete restructuring of the story team and how it does thing. As a consequence, Elspeth's return story was never seen, which sucks because she's the current primary protagonist of this entire story arc aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah god that sucks so much doesn't it.
> 
> On the plus side, the small novels done for Eldraine and Ikoria are good (Eldraine's got some shaky writing at points but it's good, Ikoria is more solid but also has a massive disconnect with the cards and also is a villain origin story so if you don't like those you're **** out of luck).
> 
> ...


Generally I agree, but I think you are giving some things a bit too much leeway. ZNR and KHM were both fine, but suffered immensely from the "trim the fat" style, especially in the end (though Red Route, the first ZNR side story and the first thing they gave us after revealing that they were going back to the articles, still sticks in my head as great). They were generally good across the side stories and the first three mains, but then realized that they had two medium-sized chapters to finish two thirds of a novel and they each managed to salvage it as something fine. KHM's epilogue was nice though. STX was similar, but the side stories were more hit-and-miss, and the finale was rushed to the point of incoherence. Also, Kasmina was there, which is literally the only thing we know about her. Liliana's story was good enough to be a satisfying conclusion to her WAR arc, but it was surrounded by too much nonsense to salvage the story overall. Innistrad, I admit, actually gave me the hope that they had cracked the code, and Kamigawa, which, while still a bit rushed in the end, was so much better than the previous year seemed to confirm it (remember when Tamiyo got compleated and, for the first time since WAR, people actually cared, it was great!) but then New Capenna happened, and, while I enjoyed a lot of it, enderlord99's explanation that people were upset that it ended in the middle was a good description. They gave a side story to the main plot (depriving one of the factions of literally any lore, by the way, and the finale was still rushed to the point of incomprehensibility. The finale wasn't a matter of reading comprehension, the text simply wasn't there. We were supposed to interpret this:



> "New Capenna will continue to fight over Halo," Elspeth said finally. "The supply is almost used up, and if it runs dry, they'll tear themselves apart." Her mind briefly wandered to Giada and the shining figures the young woman had departed with. Would the angels return to New Capenna to usher in a new age if the city were in dire need? Or had they all gone on to something greater?


as "Giada definitely becoming an angel and turning all of the angel statues into real boys". Capenna's story really did start out great, but they blew it by not giving it enough time.

For the record, I come off as super angry and hateful here, but I want to make it clear that, while I am currently complaining, generally speaking I do actually really like magic story, and I really like where it is right now with the exception that I think it is a bit hamstrung by the strict 5/5 pattern. Also, if you felt like the end of SNC was enough, great! Like what you like, I won't stop you. I just think that putting the blame for the bad pacing and writing (which I personally blame on the format more than the author, who was given an impossible job) at the feet of readers not being "quite adept at reading comprehension" is both inaccurate and slightly insulting.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Generally I agree, but I think you are giving some things a bit too much leeway. ZNR and KHM were both fine, but suffered immensely from the "trim the fat" style, especially in the end (though Red Route, the first ZNR side story and the first thing they gave us after revealing that they were going back to the articles, still sticks in my head as great). They were generally good across the side stories and the first three mains, but then realized that they had two medium-sized chapters to finish two thirds of a novel and they each managed to salvage it as something fine. KHM's epilogue was nice though. STX was similar, but the side stories were more hit-and-miss, and the finale was rushed to the point of incoherence. Also, Kasmina was there, which is literally the only thing we know about her. Liliana's story was good enough to be a satisfying conclusion to her WAR arc, but it was surrounded by too much nonsense to salvage the story overall. Innistrad, I admit, actually gave me the hope that they had cracked the code, and Kamigawa, which, while still a bit rushed in the end, was so much better than the previous year seemed to confirm it (remember when Tamiyo got compleated and, for the first time since WAR, people actually cared, it was great!) but then New Capenna happened, and, while I enjoyed a lot of it, enderlord99's explanation that people were upset that it ended in the middle was a good description. They gave a side story to the main plot (depriving one of the factions of literally any lore, by the way, and the finale was still rushed to the point of incomprehensibility. The finale wasn't a matter of reading comprehension, the text simply wasn't there. We were supposed to interpret this:
> 
> as "Giada definitely becoming an angel and turning all of the angel statues into real boys". Capenna's story really did start out great, but they blew it by not giving it enough time.
> 
> For the record, I come off as super angry and hateful here, but I want to make it clear that, while I am currently complaining, generally speaking I do actually really like magic story, and I really like where it is right now with the exception that I think it is a bit hamstrung by the strict 5/5 pattern. Also, if you felt like the end of SNC was enough, great! Like what you like, I won't stop you. I just think that putting the blame for the bad pacing and writing (which I personally blame on the format more than the author, who was given an impossible job) at the feet of readers not being "quite adept at reading comprehension" is both inaccurate and slightly insulting.


First; you don't come off as super angry or hateful at all. Not in my experience anyway. I do agree that the trim the fat method (and I think I said that in the original post) is... not ideal, but it's better than having a bad story. I do feel bad for the Riveteers, who basically did just get skipped over lore wise, though they had guys from their faction show up in a bunch of the side stories so it kinda evens out?

And yeah, maybe it was a bit harsh to say it like that. I'm... known, among my friends for just being really good at catching subtle details in writing, and sometimes I forget that not everyone is me. My experiences are my own, and while I may have felt that line you quoted above was obvious, it's unfair of me to knock others for not getting it. I do agree taht the pacing for Capenna was a little messy, but each story did feel like it clicked well- it's just kind of impossible to tell a fully compelling crime mystery novel with that 5/5 format.

----------


## Personification

> First; you don't come off as super angry or hateful at all. Not in my experience anyway. I do agree that the trim the fat method (and I think I said that in the original post) is... not ideal, but it's better than having a bad story. I do feel bad for the Riveteers, who basically did just get skipped over lore wise, though they had guys from their faction show up in a bunch of the side stories so it kinda evens out?
> 
> And yeah, maybe it was a bit harsh to say it like that. I'm... known, among my friends for just being really good at catching subtle details in writing, and sometimes I forget that not everyone is me. My experiences are my own, and while I may have felt that line you quoted above was obvious, it's unfair of me to knock others for not getting it. I do agree taht the pacing for Capenna was a little messy, but each story did feel like it clicked well- it's just kind of impossible to tell a fully compelling crime mystery novel with that 5/5 format.


But that's the point. It's impossible to tell the story with the format, so they should have tried to change the format. 

That aside, while I have occasional facepalm worthy moments of missed subtext, I also think of myself as someone who is good at catching those little details. When I read the line I quoted, I, and I believe most others, assumed that it was a possible sequel hook, or that it meant that Giada was probably an angel and that she had maybe summoned more, not that all of the statues had come to life and angels were back in force. Soul of Emancipation wasn't even a story spotlight, because it never actually got shown in the articles. It kind of felt like the time between when WAR came out and when The Gathering Storm came out when, because they released the prequel after the set and book and because there was zero internal communication about story at the time, they told us that we were supposed to know that Niv-Mizzet was dead because of the flavor text on Command the Storm. 

Also, mostly unrelated, as a weird complication with what was probably the best article of the batch, (The Family Man, written by the same person who did the Innistrad stories) there is a weird thing where the daughter of the Maestro (BRU) vampire has a mono-U human card and the daughter of the Obscura (BWU) human has a BRU vampire card, which is technically possible lore-wise, but feels like it is more likely that someone mixed up the names somewhere and it wasn't noticed.

----------


## LaZodiac

> But that's the point. It's impossible to tell the story with the format, so they should have tried to change the format. 
> 
> That aside, while I have occasional facepalm worthy moments of missed subtext, I also think of myself as someone who is good at catching those little details. When I read the line I quoted, I, and I believe most others, assumed that it was a possible sequel hook, or that it meant that Giada was probably an angel and that she had maybe summoned more, not that all of the statues had come to life and angels were back in force. Soul of Emancipation wasn't even a story spotlight, because it never actually got shown in the articles. It kind of felt like the time between when WAR came out and when The Gathering Storm came out when, because they released the prequel after the set and book and because there was zero internal communication about story at the time, they told us that we were supposed to know that Niv-Mizzet was dead because of the flavor text on Command the Storm. 
> 
> Also, mostly unrelated, as a weird complication with what was probably the best article of the batch, (The Family Man, written by the same person who did the Innistrad stories) there is a weird thing where the daughter of the Maestro (BRU) vampire has a mono-U human card and the daughter of the Obscura (BWU) human has a BRU vampire card, which is technically possible lore-wise, but feels like it is more likely that someone mixed up the names somewhere and it wasn't noticed.


Soul of Emancipation's art did get shown in the article, if not the card. It is DEFINITELY a mistake that it's not a story spotlight, 10000% agreed there what the **** WOTC.

Also agreed that the handling of Niv's death was really bad. I figured his disappearance was him going off to prep a thing and maybe getting killed, and the fact that the actual killing blow happened in a prequel novel that was definitely supposed to be released before the actual WAR story is a sign of just how chaotic it was behind the scenes.

Yeah Errant and her wife feel like they're meant to be switched mechanics wise, but Anhelo's daughter being a graffiti artist who rope swings across the city is absolutely in line with his artistic beyond all measure ass. The weirdness about their cards aside, I'm glad they're married and mechanically work well together.

----------


## enderlord99

I know you've all tried to explain the reasoning, but I still don't get why consensus is that the game consists entirely of "number go down" and every other mechanic is your opponent cheatilly "stopping you from playing the game"

The game has over twenty thousand (individually optional) components and people praise it for its "simplicity" because they consider most of them to not count

----------


## Dienekes

> I know you've all tried to explain the reasoning, but I still don't get why consensus is that the game consists entirely of "number go down" and every other mechanic is your opponent cheatilly "stopping you from playing the game"
> 
> The game has over twenty thousand (individually optional) components and people praise it for its "simplicity" because they consider most of them to not count


Is anyone saying youre cheating or just that it isnt fun to play against?

Because what you describe is not cheating or cheatily doing anything. But playing against a deck that tells you to sit in the corner and wait ten minutes before you can maybe do something isnt fun to play against. And in that instance I would literally rather be off in a corner reading a book than playing the game. 

And thats really the marker here. Would I have more joy in my life by being by myself enjoying a book than continuing to play this game? If no.  Its a good game. If yes. Its a bad game. MTG is somewhat interesting because the answer depends on what your opponent decides to do because there are just so many options and strategies. Its part of why its so popular. Because there will be someone else who finds the gameplay I described absolutely riveting. And would say no to the good book test. 

Such as yourself, I assume. 

And you are in no way playing the game wrong. 

I would just personally rather read a good book than play against you.

----------


## enderlord99

I don't hog priority for ten minutes, nor do my turns take ten minutes.  Both are likely longer than you would like, admittedly, but not nearly _that_ long.

I do, however, occasionally cast a counter-spell or two... and I really do mean "one or two" because I have literally two counterspells in my deck, and only one copy of each.

I'm sure that's two too many, by your standards.

----------


## Dienekes

> I don't hog priority for ten minutes, nor do my turns take ten minutes.  Both are likely longer than you would like, admittedly, but not nearly _that_ long.
> 
> I do, however, occasionally cast a counter-spell or two... and I really do mean "one or two" because I have literally two counterspells in my deck, and only one copy of each.
> 
> I'm sure that's two too many, by your standards.


Honestly depends entirely on how the rest of the deck plays. I will admit I did use some hyperbolic language about the length of a turn. Though I will say there have been games where after ten minutes it felt like nothing happened because of board wipes and counter spells and various delaying tactics. 

But importantly, why would you care if I enjoy playing against you? We will likely never meet or play against each other. Just have your fun.

----------


## enderlord99

One thing we appear to have in common is "not particularly liking wrath effects"

I agree that we're unlikely to encounter each other in-game.

----------


## Personification

Enderlord99, I've read the descriptions you give of your decks and they all sound hilarious to read about, interesting to play, and absolutely miserable to play against, and I mean that as a compliment. I don't think people consider it cheating, but describing prison (which you have definitely mentioned playing, even if it doesn't have many counters or wraths) as "not letting the opponent play" is pretty accurate. I don't think anyone is praising MTG for its simplicity on the grounds that they are discounting bon-aggressive mechanics, and I don't think people  are calling your decks badwrongfun. I do think that it is ok to admit that playing against prison and/or combo can be boring and demoralizing, and that this fact isn't an attack on prison players or the concept, just a fact of how it plays out

----------


## enderlord99

> Enderlord99, I've read the descriptions you give of your decks and they all sound hilarious to read about, interesting to play, and absolutely miserable to play against, and I mean that as a compliment. I don't think people consider it cheating, but describing prison (which you have definitely mentioned playing, even if it doesn't have many counters or wraths) as "not letting the opponent play" is pretty accurate. I don't think anyone is praising MTG for its simplicity on the grounds that they are discounting bon-aggressive mechanics, and I don't think people  are calling your decks badwrongfun. I do think that it is ok to admit that playing against prison and/or combo can be boring and demoralizing, and that this fact isn't an attack on prison players or the concept, just a fact of how it plays out


I have exactly one prison deck (the _Trampoline Museum_) and your assessment of it is probably completely accurate.  I haven't played it in months, because I figured out other deck-concepts (like _Professor IKEA_ (formerly known as "_Professor Google_")) that I find more fun and that might, as a bonus, be tolerable to play against.

----------


## JNAProductions

Didn't we use to have a "Make your own Magic Card" thread?

Because I'm curious what the following characters would look like as Magic cards.

-Kirby
-Meta Knight
-Marx
-King Dedede (with possible Partner Bandana Waddle Dee)

----------


## Personification

> Didn't we use to have a "Make your own Magic Card" thread?
> 
> Because I'm curious what the following characters would look like as Magic cards.
> 
> -Kirby
> -Meta Knight
> -Marx
> -King Dedede (with possible Partner Bandana Waddle Dee)


Kirby is Valki

----------


## JNAProductions

> Kirby is Valki


I don't think that quite fits. It's a good base to work from, but I don't think that really matches. Especially the Planeswalker side.

----------


## Androgeus

> Didn't we use to have a "Make your own Magic Card" thread?


I think there was one in the homebrew section, but it may be past the thread necromancy point now.


As to your other question, Im not familiar with Kirby games to do the other characters but I think PMPersonification is in the right ball park with Valki (Im assuming just the front face). Maybe something like Dark Imposter would fit better? Probably make it only have the activated ablities of the card it most recently exiled. Not sure if that would match the colours Kirby would actually be though. I get the feeling he might be Red/White, if so you could do something like at the beginning of combat, exile target creature until the end of combat, ~ becomes a copy of that creature as long as it remains exiled

----------


## Spore

> Kirby is Valki


Lazav, the Multifarious if you want the effect of turning into a consumed enemy.
Moritte of the Frost or Oko the Trickster if you somewhat care about Kirby not being black.

----------


## Emmerlaus

> Didn't we use to have a "Make your own Magic Card" thread?
> 
> Because I'm curious what the following characters would look like as Magic cards.
> 
> -Kirby
> -Meta Knight
> -Marx
> -King Dedede (with possible Partner Bandana Waddle Dee)


I dont know about their lore so Im going with Smash Bros abilities and mtg creatures  types and abilities here: 

Kirby - Identify Thief if we go by abilities only. 

Meta Knight - Silverwing Squadron? Otherwise Meta Knight feels like a creature enchanted with Dub and Demonic Embrace. Maybe his cloak could be Cloak of the Bat.

King dedede need to be a bird type creature without flying and able to be wielding a hammer. Cant think of anything for it sorry.

----------


## Personification

> I dont know about their lore so Im going with Smash Bros abilities and mtg creatures  types and abilities here: 
> 
> Kirby - Identify Thief if we go by abilities only. 
> 
> Meta Knight - Silverwing Squadron? Otherwise Meta Knight feels like a creature enchanted with Dub and Demonic Embrace. Maybe his cloak could be Cloak of the Bat.
> 
> King dedede need to be a bird type creature without flying and able to be wielding a hammer. Cant think of anything for it sorry.


Storm Crow holding Colossal Hammer

----------


## enderlord99

Wilson's green specialization is turning out to be a *great* addition to the _Gideon of the Trials_ pillowfort element of my Historic deck, especially in combination with _Kaya the Inexorable_.

EDIT:  Yes, I admit that particular combo is kinda mean.  It's not nearly as harsh as my old deck "_The Trampoline Museum_" which was an actual prison deck, but it's still a bit... overkill.

----------


## Personification

MaRo talked Unfinity at SDCC and now we know there will be stickers in Vintage.

Also, from the pre-pre-pre-announcement for Dominaria United, we know that 3% of collector boosters will contain a card from Legends.

----------


## LaZodiac

> MaRo talked Unfinity at SDCC and now we know there will be stickers in Vintage.
> 
> Also, from the pre-pre-pre-announcement for Dominaria United, we know that 3% of collector boosters will contain a card from Legends.


Oh right I should talk about the Dominaria United stream that happened.

Teferi, Jaya, Karn, Ajani, and seemingly Liliana will be in, and we know from flavour text and a card preview that Sheoldred, the black praetor, is on plane waking up ancient Old P tech. So that's concerning. Very good chance someone on that list of names is gonna get ate, if this is meant to be the lead up to the next massive chunk of storyline they say it's going to be.

Karn specifically is looking to research the past and see how Urza first bested the Phyrexians, and that'll likely be the frame story for Brother War.

----------


## Personification

Don't forget Braids on the collector box art.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Don't forget Braids on the collector box art.


And Braids in the set! We've seen art of her and she looks... impressive, to say the least. She escaped the nightmare hell realm she was apparently sent to! Might also be compleated, since she was part of the Cabal. I kinda hope she is because the idea of her returning to New Phyrexia to plop down a new Steel Thane would be really funny to me.

----------


## JNAProductions

Whats a good deck style for Chun Li?
I have a friend who will only play Commander if he plays her.

----------


## Personification

> Whats a good deck style for Chun Li?
> I have a friend who will only play Commander if he plays her.


Magecraft/prowess tribal and lots of instants

----------


## Androgeus

> Karn specifically is looking to research the past and see how Urza first bested the Phyrexians, and that'll likely be the frame story for Brother War.


Wasn't that with the Sylex? Which Karn already has?




> Whats a good deck style for Chun Li?
> I have a friend who will only play Commander if he plays her.


First idea I get is just to fill the deck with cantrips, refund spells (I think only Snap and Frantic Search work well, trying to make the Rewind/Unwind work is probably too cute), and then either storm spells or a bunch of buff spells to make Chun Li lethal. A few ways to bounce Chun Li to hand so she can be recast and kick some more spells wouldn't go amiss.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Wasn't that with the Sylex? Which Karn already has?
> 
> 
> 
> First idea I get is just to fill the deck with cantrips, refund spells (I think only Snap and Frantic Search work well, trying to make the Rewind/Unwind work is probably too cute), and then either storm spells or a bunch of buff spells to make Chun Li lethal. A few ways to bounce Chun Li to hand so she can be recast and kick some more spells wouldn't go amiss.


I don't recall if he's yet found the Sylex, but regardless of finding it he still needs to learn how it was used and the possible consequences. Karn, unlike his dad, is going to make sure he fully understands the dangers of using this nuke before setting it off on the plane he made with his own two hands.

----------


## IthilanorStPete

> Wasn't that with the Sylex? Which Karn already has?


The Sylex ended the Brother's War, which wasn't primarily against the Phyrexians, although they were influencing Mishra by the end. That's probably what they're referring to, though, because Karn should definitely know all about the Legacy.

...now I'm worried that WotC's going to retcon the Brother's War into being all about Urza's first Big Heroic Fight against the Evil Phyrexians (tm), which would IMO detract from the tragedy and complexity of the original story. I really like the old books _The Brother's War_ and _Planeswalker_, but honestly it probably makes more sense to unify the backstory with the current storyline, instead of being constrained by a couple of twenty-year-old books and Urza's old character arc, given that he's not likely to be reappearing in the modern story any time soon.

EDIT:




> I don't recall if he's yet found the Sylex, but regardless of finding it he still needs to learn how it was used and the possible consequences. Karn, unlike his dad, is going to make sure he fully understands the dangers of using this nuke before setting it off on the plane he made with his own two hands.


That's a good point, given that the original use of the Sylex not only nuked Dominaria and started the Ice Age, it had a multiverse-level impact, creating the Shard that sealed off Dominaria and a few other planes from the rest of the multiverse for a while. That's not something to casually mess with.

----------


## LaZodiac

> The Sylex ended the Brother's War, which wasn't primarily against the Phyrexians, although they were influencing Mishra by the end. That's probably what they're referring to, though, because Karn should definitely know all about the Legacy.
> 
> ...now I'm worried that WotC's going to retcon the Brother's War into being all about Urza's first Big Heroic Fight against the Evil Phyrexians (tm), which would IMO detract from the tragedy and complexity of the original story. I really like the old books _The Brother's War_ and _Planeswalker_, but honestly it probably makes more sense to unify the backstory with the current storyline, instead of being constrained by a couple of twenty-year-old books and Urza's old character arc, given that he's not likely to be reappearing in the modern story any time soon.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good point, given that the original use of the Sylex not only nuked Dominaria and started the Ice Age, it had a multiverse-level impact, creating the Shard that sealed off Dominaria and a few other planes from the rest of the multiverse for a while. That's not something to casually mess with.


See the interesting thing is that IN UNIVERSE, people do consider Urza's fight against the compleated Mishra to be his first big heroic fight against Evil Phyrexians. Out of universe we know the truth, and Karn researching the old stories will likely lead to the shocking realization (to most modern folk, both in and out of universe) that this heroic war was really just a petty sibling squabble that Phyrexia only took advantage of, and that Urza is a hero only in comparison to his enemy's true evil.

So I don't think there'll be any retconning, persay. Maybe like, some clarification of some things (who slash what is Gix, who I bet will get a Praetor type line) and some elaboration on things the original story presented (what did Tawnos and Mishra's Tawnos whose name I forget but it's like, the girl, the cool girl everyone likes, what'd they do and stuff?).

----------


## IthilanorStPete

> See the interesting thing is that IN UNIVERSE, people do consider Urza's fight against the compleated Mishra to be his first big heroic fight against Evil Phyrexians. Out of universe we know the truth, and Karn researching the old stories will likely lead to the shocking realization (to most modern folk, both in and out of universe) that this heroic war was really just a petty sibling squabble that Phyrexia only took advantage of, and that Urza is a hero only in comparison to his enemy's true evil.


I hadn't thought about that, that would work well.




> So I don't think there'll be any retconning, persay. Maybe like, some clarification of some things (who slash what is Gix, who I bet will get a Praetor type line) and some elaboration on things the original story presented (what did Tawnos and Mishra's Tawnos whose name I forget but it's like, the girl, the cool girl everyone likes, what'd they do and stuff?).


Ashnod. (Who is indeed great, if...ethically challenged.) Some clarification/minor retconning would be fine with me, there are elements of the original stories that aren't quite consistent with how the Phyrexians ended up being presented even in the Weatherlight Saga, as long as the main character arcs are preserved.

----------


## enderlord99

> Mishra's Tawnos whose name I forget


Would that be Ashnod?

----------


## LaZodiac

> I hadn't thought about that, that would work well.
> 
> 
> 
> Ashnod. (Who is indeed great, if...ethically challenged.) Some clarification/minor retconning would be fine with me, there are elements of the original stories that aren't quite consistent with how the Phyrexians ended up being presented even in the Weatherlight Saga, as long as the main character arcs are preserved.


I feel like Urza secretly being kind of a **** wouldn't be that big a surprise to Karn, but to everyone else? Absolutely. Girard never told anyone about how Urza straight up ****ing fell to Phyrexia at the end... because I'm pretty sure he died in the sacrifice to kill Yawgmoth, I don't quite remember all the details. So no one KNOWS that Urza set up a convoluted situation to excuse his using his fellow planeswalkers as soul-fed nukes. No one KNOWS he, at the very end, succumbed to the desire Yawgmoth gave him. No one KNOWS that everything Urza has done was because he and his brother got in a petty fight about a shiny rock.

They only know, in universe, about Urza the hero. Urza the mechanist. Urza who helped defeat the greatest evil.

What's fun though is that... none of these depictions of Urza is "right". Sure, by the end of his life, he was a hero only by virtue of his enemies being true, pure evil. But before the Brother War, before Urza, Planeswalker, there was Urza, a kid who just wanted to tinker with machines. He wanted to fix clocks and make robots. It's honestly my favorite part about Urza's arc- the power of being a God broke the dude. And I trust the brother war set will stick to this.

While also giving some additional stuff. I fully expect the set to have a Bo-Levar planeswalker card since it's canon he ignited during the Sylex Blast.




> Would that be Ashnod?


Yup!

----------


## Zombimode

Not a fan of the D&D/MTG crossovers in general but Minsc being a planeswalker is a really strange decision. I fail to see the logic behind that.

Drafting a Commander deck is weird. And FFA multiplayer is really not a good tournament format.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Not a fan of the D&D/MTG crossovers in general but Minsc being a planeswalker is a really strange decision. I fail to see the logic behind that.
> 
> Drafting a Commander deck is weird. And FFA multiplayer is really not a good tournament format.


It's a casual sort of tournament, so don't stress and it'll be a lot better to play, I think.

Minsc gets to be a planeswalker because of a variety of reasons. He's popular being one of them, his adorable hamster leading to interesting mechanical complexities to a card involving him that being a planeswalker would help being another. And speaking of Boo... Boo IS from Spelljammers or Planescape or whatever. He IS from space, and space is planar jumping. I don't know enough about DND to be sure but I imagine Minsc has been around a few interplanar portals in his time- so it fits.

Also, if anyone in the DND mythos was going to HAVE a spark, I feel like it'd be this goober.

----------


## enderlord99

> Boo IS from Spelljammers or Planescape or whatever.


Spelljammer, yes.


> He IS from space


That's it in a nutshell!


> and space is planar jumping


Not at all.  Spelljammer is, by definition, all part of one D&D Plane (that being the Prime Material)

Planescape is the next layer up, and as the name suggests, it *is* multiple Planes.  Several of those Planes have things called "Layers" which are kinda like the Realms in Kaldheim, but not really; the Prime Material does not have Layers.  It does have "Spheres" but those are all explicitly one... well, most things anyone would care about are part of "Arcane Space" which is pretty much literally a galaxy.

If you want more details, go here.

----------


## IthilanorStPete

> I feel like Urza secretly being kind of a **** wouldn't be that big a surprise to Karn, but to everyone else? Absolutely. Girard never told anyone about how Urza straight up ****ing fell to Phyrexia at the end... because I'm pretty sure he died in the sacrifice to kill Yawgmoth, I don't quite remember all the details. So no one KNOWS that Urza set up a convoluted situation to excuse his using his fellow planeswalkers as soul-fed nukes. No one KNOWS he, at the very end, succumbed to the desire Yawgmoth gave him. No one KNOWS that everything Urza has done was because he and his brother got in a petty fight about a shiny rock.
> 
> They only know, in universe, about Urza the hero. Urza the mechanist. Urza who helped defeat the greatest evil.
> 
> What's fun though is that... none of these depictions of Urza is "right". Sure, by the end of his life, he was a hero only by virtue of his enemies being true, pure evil. But before the Brother War, before Urza, Planeswalker, there was Urza, a kid who just wanted to tinker with machines. He wanted to fix clocks and make robots. It's honestly my favorite part about Urza's arc- the power of being a God broke the dude. And I trust the brother war set will stick to this.


^ all this is why I love Urza's arc. 

Side note: when Time Spiral block came out, and part of the WotC creative team's justification for making planeswalkers less powerful was because it was hard/impossible to write decent storylines with such powerful main characters, I was really annoyed because Urza shows it's definitely possible. With hindsight, though, it's definitely easier to write stories with external threats for post-Mending 'walkers, and making planeswalkers a much larger part of Magic's story and mechanics has worked out well. So I'm only a _little_ annoyed these days.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## The Hellbug

> I feel like Urza secretly being kind of a **** wouldn't be that big a surprise to Karn, but to everyone else? Absolutely. Girard never told anyone about how Urza straight up ****ing fell to Phyrexia at the end... because I'm pretty sure he died in the sacrifice to kill Yawgmoth, I don't quite remember all the details. So no one KNOWS that Urza set up a convoluted situation to excuse his using his fellow planeswalkers as soul-fed nukes. No one KNOWS he, at the very end, succumbed to the desire Yawgmoth gave him. No one KNOWS that everything Urza has done was because he and his brother got in a petty fight about a shiny rock.
> 
> They only know, in universe, about Urza the hero. Urza the mechanist. Urza who helped defeat the greatest evil.
> 
> What's fun though is that... none of these depictions of Urza is "right". Sure, by the end of his life, he was a hero only by virtue of his enemies being true, pure evil. But before the Brother War, before Urza, Planeswalker, there was Urza, a kid who just wanted to tinker with machines. He wanted to fix clocks and make robots. It's honestly my favorite part about Urza's arc- the power of being a God broke the dude. And I trust the brother war set will stick to this.
> 
> While also giving some additional stuff. I fully expect the set to have a Bo-Levar planeswalker card since it's canon he ignited during the Sylex Blast.


We got a card called Windgrace Acolyte and so-and-so, Knight of Windgrace in the last Dominaria set.  If there's anyone following in Lord Windgrace's footsteps, they probably hate Urza like he did, even if they don't know the specifics of the whole Nine Titans fiasco.

And Teferi's still around, too.  He may not have been there for the climax of it all, but he certainly has some opinions on Urza.

----------


## noob

I always liked Mishra(he was really ambitious and did so many revolutionary things).
I also always hated Urza for killing an artificer that is far better than him and surviving purely through being favoured by the writers.

----------


## LaZodiac

> We got a card called Windgrace Acolyte and so-and-so, Knight of Windgrace in the last Dominaria set.  If there's anyone following in Lord Windgrace's footsteps, they probably hate Urza like he did, even if they don't know the specifics of the whole Nine Titans fiasco.
> 
> And Teferi's still around, too.  He may not have been there for the climax of it all, but he certainly has some opinions on Urza.


Yeah anyone who follows Lord Windgrace probably knows Urza's a bitch, but historically everyone knows Windgrace hated Urza so they might chalk it up to that.

Teferi and Jhoira and probably Jodah all know Urza's got problems, but none of them seem interested in making waves in history; an understandable behavior, given they were witness too some of the biggest waves Urza made and might be a little cautious about dramatically changing the world for no reason other than "this damaged mind is being revered as a hero when instead he was a big big jerk, mostly because of said damage."

EDIT: I don't think at all it was a case of "writer's favourite" with Urza killing Mishra. Remember the cards were made well before the story, and in the cards Urza wins. They wrote a story to match that.

Also Urza was the better artificer he did all this without the assistance of demon robots from the meat dimension.

----------


## noob

> Yeah anyone who follows Lord Windgrace probably knows Urza's a bitch, but historically everyone knows Windgrace hated Urza so they might chalk it up to that.
> 
> Teferi and Jhoira and probably Jodah all know Urza's got problems, but none of them seem interested in making waves in history; an understandable behavior, given they were witness too some of the biggest waves Urza made and might be a little cautious about dramatically changing the world for no reason other than "this damaged mind is being revered as a hero when instead he was a big big jerk, mostly because of said damage."
> 
> EDIT: I don't think at all it was a case of "writer's favourite" with Urza killing Mishra. Remember the cards were made well before the story, and in the cards Urza wins. They wrote a story to match that.
> 
> Also Urza was the better artificer he did all this without the assistance of demon robots from the meat dimension.


He dug up the nuke artefact(he did not make it, it was pure luck) and the explosion should have killed him but instead made him a god(again pure luck and writer favour: he did not know it would or even could happen)

----------


## LaZodiac

> He dug up the nuke artefact(he did not make it, it was pure luck) and the explosion should have killed him but instead made him a god(again pure luck and writer favour: he did not know it would or even could happen)


Urza and Mishra's entire story start because they went digging and found something they shouldn't. It blew up in their faces- it's narratively fitting the same happens at the end. Urza becoming a Planeswalker from the explosion isn't because he's a "writer's favourite". He's the hero of the story and it allows him to continue existing- but with the Powerstones he and Mishra found that started it firmly wedged into his eyes, his literal past a lens through which he continues to see the world.

It's incredible a piece of storytelling, given they had to account for the fact that "Urza wins through this ancient relic bomb he found and becomes a planeswalker" was set in stone before they even started writing.

----------


## noob

> Urza and Mishra's entire story start because they went digging and found something they shouldn't. It blew up in their faces- it's narratively fitting the same happens at the end. Urza becoming a Planeswalker from the explosion isn't because he's a "writer's favourite". He's the hero of the story and it allows him to continue existing- but with the Powerstones he and Mishra found that started it firmly wedged into his eyes, his literal past a lens through which he continues to see the world.
> 
> It's incredible a piece of storytelling, given they had to account for the fact that "Urza wins through this ancient relic bomb he found and becomes a planeswalker" was set in stone before they even started writing.


Hero of the story is not exclusive with favourite of the author.
There is lots of stories where the hero dies.
Using a nuke (the nuke weapon was not a powerstone and was not something acquired at start, it was acquired late when the author needed to reverse the situation) at point blank range could have been an heroic sacrifice instead of urza just being dumb but becoming a god by luck.

----------


## Personification

What's funny is that, while Urza is definitely considered a hero in universe, basically all of our protagonists who know about him know enough to hate him as much as the audience, they just don't feel the need to talk about it. Also, while in Dominaria (2018) Karn was looking for (and maybe found) the sylex, and it was implied that he knew how to use it, I doubt he would ever use it on Dominaria. His plan was to use it on New Phyrexia as a sort of "nuke them all from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" thing because the entire plane was lost, but Dominaria is nowhere close to that and he knows about the Ice Age and is friends with people who were alive at the time so he won't start that again. Plus, we know that Dominaria has beaten a Phyrexian invasion before.

My prediction is that Sheoldred's invasion will meet a surprisingly knowledgeable resistance and learn some shocking things about the history of Phyrexia, and that this will be our big win before the heroes take major losses in Lacrosse and then get a huge come from behind victory in Marathon, with a question mark placed on both the denouement and the draft environment by Marathon Epilogue.

I really hope that Brothers' War is not a time travel set, but a flashback, because we don't need more of that. Maybe it's going to be a Princess Bride-esque reading of history to the young 'Walkers so they know the context of what they are fighting.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Hero of the story is not exclusive with favourite of the author.
> There is lots of stories where the hero dies.
> Using a nuke (the nuke weapon was not a powerstone and was not something acquired at start, it was acquired late when the author needed to reverse the situation) at point blank range could have been an heroic sacrifice instead of urza just being dumb but becoming a god by luck.


True, but he's not a favorite of the author.

I'm well aware the Sylex is not a powerstone, I'm saying that thematically, it is something unearthed by Urza's hunger for knowledge- just like the Powerstone that became the Might and Weak stones. It's a parallel. 

Given how Urza becomes after the Blast... I'd argue it is a heroic sacrifice even though he lives. Urza the man, the nice little coded-autistic guy who just wanted to fix clocks, has been beaten and broken by war, and is dead. Urza, Planeswalker, the paranoid god with immense power and no restraint, is what became of his death. Symbolic though it may be, it's more than fair to say he died and was reborn as a Planeswalker, more so than most other walkers.




> What's funny is that, while Urza is definitely considered a hero in universe, basically all of our protagonists who know about him know enough to hate him as much as the audience, they just don't feel the need to talk about it. Also, while in Dominaria (2018) Karn was looking for (and maybe found) the sylex, and it was implied that he knew how to use it, I doubt he would ever use it on Dominaria. His plan was to use it on New Phyrexia as a sort of "nuke them all from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" thing because the entire plane was lost, but Dominaria is nowhere close to that and he knows about the Ice Age and is friends with people who were alive at the time so he won't start that again. Plus, we know that Dominaria has beaten a Phyrexian invasion before.
> 
> My prediction is that Sheoldred's invasion will meet a surprisingly knowledgeable resistance and learn some shocking things about the history of Phyrexia, and that this will be our big win before the heroes take major losses in Lacrosse and then get a huge come from behind victory in Marathon, with a question mark placed on both the denouement and the draft environment by Marathon Epilogue.
> 
> I really hope that Brothers' War is not a time travel set, but a flashback, because we don't need more of that. Maybe it's going to be a Princess Bride-esque reading of history to the young 'Walkers so they know the context of what they are fighting.


Yeah, with maybe Sheoldred coming away with a win of "someone gets killed/compleated, and they get the specific tech Norn wants" to set up for the Lacrosse sets.

Brother's War is not going to be a time travel set. It'll likely be Karn researching the Sylex to see how safe it is to use on New Phyrexia, if it needs a framing story. I'm pretty sure they've said as such as well.

----------


## Zombimode

> Also, if anyone in the DND mythos was going to HAVE a spark, I feel like it'd be this goober.


But there is no such thing as a "Planeswalker Spark" in the Forgotten Realms or Planescape by extension.
That is one of the fundamental problems of crossovers like this: inevitably one setting has to bend over and conform to the other setting.
The Forgotten Realms already have a planar cosmology. A "planeswalker" in this setting is someone who has both the ability for planar travel and the habit of doing so. Elminster is very appropriately represented as Planeswalker card in MTG.
Minsc on the other hand is a braindamaged ranger. He traveled the planes exactly twice, and never on his own volition:
1. When he accompanied %Charname into the Planar Sphere which then travled somewhere to the Lower Planes.
2. When he was drawn into the Abyss while fighting Irenicus thanks to his close connection to %Charname.

That doesn't scream "Planeswalker" to me.

I wasn't imrpessed by the set from a flavour standpoint anyway. It styles itself as a Forgotten Realms flavoured set but includes several prominent characters from Greyhawk...

----------


## LaZodiac

> But there is no such thing as a "Planeswalker Spark" in the Forgotten Realms or Planescape by extension.
> That is one of the fundamental problems of crossovers like this: inevitably one setting has to bend over and conform to the other setting.
> The Forgotten Realms already have a planar cosmology. A "planeswalker" in this setting is someone who has both the ability for planar travel and the habit of doing so. Elminster is very appropriately represented as Planeswalker card in MTG.
> Minsc on the other hand is a braindamaged ranger. He traveled the planes exactly twice, and never on his own volition:
> 1. When he accompanied %Charname into the Planar Sphere which then travled somewhere to the Lower Planes.
> 2. When he was drawn into the Abyss while fighting Irenicus thanks to his close connection to %Charname.
> 
> That doesn't scream "Planeswalker" to me.
> 
> I wasn't imrpessed by the set from a flavour standpoint anyway. It styles itself as a Forgotten Realms flavoured set but includes several prominent characters from Greyhawk...


The easiest fix for that is to just say that all of the Forgotten Realm's cosmology is part of the same plane, like Kaldheim. Easy peasy. Sparks are very easy things to explain away since they are nominally quite rare. This isn't "bending over", it's just sliding in one single side thing.

Honestly given some of the canon planeswalkers out there, "goofy ranger with a magic hamster who ****s around having wacky adventures" is like, barely a blip on my radar Planeswalker wise. Remember, Planeswalkers aren't inherently cool and powerful and extreme heroes or anything; sometimes they're just people. Sometimes a Planeswalker is a kid who has lived in sand hell all his time and during a particular bad storm woke up in a big city. Sometimes a Planeswalker is a dragon who got anxiety. It happens.

I'll admit I don't know the difference between Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms lore wise, but I'm pretty sure they're all like, together as a thing?

----------


## enderlord99

> The easiest fix for that is to just say that all of the Forgotten Realm's cosmology is part of the same plane, like Kaldheim.


Forgotten Realms doesn't have a cosmology.  I mean, it does, but that's because of a couple really bad retcons.  Putting *all of D&D, ever* as a single plane in Magic is a really stupid idea, no matter how "easy" you think it is.


> I'll admit I don't know the difference between Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms lore wise, but I'm pretty sure they're all like, together as a thing?


They're separate settings.  Forgotten Realms takes place on a planet called "Toril" whereas Greyhawk is a different planet in a different Sphere, with Spheres basically being solar-systems.  The size of _real_ solar-systems.

Seriously, go to that thread I linked.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Forgotten Realms doesn't have a cosmology.  I mean, it does, but that's because of a couple really bad retcons.  Putting *all of D&D, ever* as a single plane in Magic is a really stupid idea, no matter how "easy" you think it is.They're separate settings.  Forgotten Realms takes place on a planet called "Toril" whereas Greyhawk is a different planet in a different Sphere, with Spheres basically being solar-systems.  The size of _real_ solar-systems.
> 
> Seriously, go to that thread I linked.


I disagree, and it seems quite easy actually. The material plane, the ethereal shadow beneath it, the various elemental planes, all of deep space, the nine hells and what not. Other planets. None of this feels weird or uneasy to work together at all. What about it makes it difficult?

I may do that after work, since it could be an interesting read!

----------


## Spore

> I don't know enough about DND to be sure but I imagine Minsc has been around a few interplanar portals in his time- so it fits.
> 
> Also, if anyone in the DND mythos was going to HAVE a spark, I feel like it'd be this goober.


Well, for starters no. Minsc is a guy that accidentally drops through a portal, gets turned into a statue for 300 years or runs after his hamster a lot. But he is not an active planeswalker. Nothing about him screams multiverse champion, but accidental hero. There are two wizards from Forgotten Realms that might qualify. Elminster and Mordenkainen. Elminster was canonically on earth looking for apprentices. I think Mordenkainen is a master wizard on Greyhawk AND the Forgotten Realms. And he is most definitely been seen on Ravenloft. But aside from old boring men in bathrobes, FR has actually canonically disabled powerful magic by an edict of the god of magic and the overgod.

Planeswalking by MTG standards is not "planeswalking" in D&D standards. That would most certainly be the kind of spells that Netheril (ancient arrogant hyper magic society) used to float their cities, and it is forbidden in the Realms. My head canon for this is, that planeswalkers know the FR universe exists but entering it they'll loose their spark, and they'll avoid it. Other than that, Ao and Mystra surpress any planeswalker spartk. If people get bored they just send them to Sigil to meet the Lady of Pain.

----------


## Zombimode

> The easiest fix for that is to just say that all of the Forgotten Realm's cosmology is part of the same plane, like Kaldheim. Easy peasy. Sparks are very easy things to explain away since they are nominally quite rare. This isn't "bending over", it's just sliding in one single side thing.
> 
> Honestly given some of the canon planeswalkers out there, "goofy ranger with a magic hamster who ****s around having wacky adventures" is like, barely a blip on my radar Planeswalker wise. Remember, Planeswalkers aren't inherently cool and powerful and extreme heroes or anything; sometimes they're just people. Sometimes a Planeswalker is a kid who has lived in sand hell all his time and during a particular bad storm woke up in a big city. Sometimes a Planeswalker is a dragon who got anxiety. It happens.
> 
> I'll admit I don't know the difference between Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms lore wise, but I'm pretty sure they're all like, together as a thing?


There are two ways about this:
1. Incorporating the Forgotten Realms setting into the MTG multiverse - and with that shoehorning concepts from the MTG lore into the Forgotten Realms. And yes, that absolutely is the Forgotten Realms setting bending over to accomodate the MTG concepts.
Under this view, Elminster is a planeswalker because he has the planeswalker spark.

2. Using the MTG _game language_ to represent concepts and objects from the Forgotten Realms setting.
Under this view Elminster is represented as a Planeswalker card because the character is a powerfull wizard and has both the ability and the habit of traveling the planes. He _is_ a planeswalker under the meaning of this term in the setting. It is a thematic fit to feature Elminster as a Planeswalker card.
Minsc on the other hand would not be called a planeswalker in this setting. In fact he has very little to do with planes and the walking thereof. Thus representing Minsc as a Planeswalker cards would be thematically disconnected.

I hope the difference is clear.

----------


## Personification

> The easiest fix for that is to just say that all of the Forgotten Realm's cosmology is part of the same plane, like Kaldheim. Easy peasy. Sparks are very easy things to explain away since they are nominally quite rare. This isn't "bending over", it's just sliding in one single side thing.
> 
> Honestly given some of the canon planeswalkers out there, "goofy ranger with a magic hamster who ****s around having wacky adventures" is like, barely a blip on my radar Planeswalker wise. Remember, Planeswalkers aren't inherently cool and powerful and extreme heroes or anything; sometimes they're just people. Sometimes a Planeswalker is a kid who has lived in sand hell all his time and during a particular bad storm woke up in a big city. Sometimes a Planeswalker is a dragon who got anxiety. It happens.
> 
> I'll admit I don't know the difference between Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms lore wise, but I'm pretty sure they're all like, together as a thing?


Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are different planets. (Or, technically, they are different settings focused on different planets. The Forgotten Realms setting focuses on the world of Toril and the Greyhawk setting focuses on the world of Oerth.) Greyhawk was one of, if not the, first major campaign settings, so many of the major ancient historical legacy D&D characters like Mordenkainen and Tasha (many of whom are just the personal PCs of the creators) are from there, but the Forgotten Realms is the one they chose as the focus for "vanilla" fifth edition, so it has gotten much more press and popularity with the modern crowd, and it is also the one in which the Baldur's Gate video game series, most published adventures, and the upcoming movie are set, so it makes more sense to make the set there because of brand cohesion.

EDIT: And in the like hour it took me to write this three people returned an unblocked post to their hand and put posts that said the same thing, just shorter and easier to parse, onto the battlefield tapped and attacking.

In "vanilla" D&D, all settings, stylized in-universe as versions or sections of the material plane, are connected in some way and accessible to each other with strong enough magic (even if they have seemingly mutually exclusive cosmologies) and several characters, especially the aforementioned powerful legacy characters, which is how people in the Forgotten Realms know about Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion. 

These characters, including Elminster, who is from the Forgotten Realms but is in a similar space power-wise to the others, fit the image of a Planeswalker both in ability and in the old-walker image of them, but the mechanics are very different. I think that at the end of the day they decided that the multiversal mechanics of the properties of planeswalking and planeshifting were so incompatible that they could either have no planeswalkers or just make any character they wanted who had technically been to other planes a 'walker despite the lore implications and chose the latter. For some of them, like the Archmages, they went with something that felt tonally appropriate, but for others they just chose characters that were popular and/or fun. At the end of the day, the actual thing that differentiates the card type in MTG is the spark, which makes you not a creature and has specific lore meanings that aren't matched in D&D, so it is all moot.


As a total side note to that longer-than-intended essay, the ways that the two games treat planar physics creates a weird situation where the multiverse of Magic fits fine into D&D but the existence of D&D planes in MTG would break the lore, which is why they made it very clear that AFR didn't mean that the Forgotten Realms was a plane, but then they published a short (and kind of meh) D&D adventure where characters from the Forgotten Realms meet a Ravnican. This is also how they are making the MTG setting books work. When you play a game in the setting, you basically choose if you are in a D&D game or a D20 system MTG RPG system. If you choose the former, whatever plane you are on is in the D&D multiverse, which basically means the lore is the same except no sparks and great wheel cosmology is in play. If you choose the latter, you have to reflavor many spells and planar travel kind of breaks down a bit (but summons still work because they are either mana constructs or summoned from a plane's given pocket hell dimension like the Abyss or wherever all of the Innistrad demons come from. Honestly, demons don't entirely make sense in the MTG cosmology but everyone just sort of goes with it).

Also, which planeswalker is a dragon with anxiety? The only Dragonwalkers I can think of (except for Sarkhan, and he definitely doesn't count) are Ugin and Bolas, and they both sparked from existential brother betrayal, not anxiety. (Also also: "If I had a nickel for every time a planeswalker sparked while being buried alive, I would have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice." Same goes for "sparked out of pure joy at getting a small amount of positive reinforcement from one of the brainwashed gods of Amonkhet".)

----------


## enderlord99

> What about it makes it difficult?


I didn't say it was difficult.  I said it was a bad idea.

----------


## Personification

> I didn't say it was difficult.  I said it was a bad idea.


I agree. Luckily, so did they, which is why they didn't do it, they just sort of reimagined the characters with MTG mechanics.

----------


## noob

None of the "spark for summoning and multiverse travel" thing would be an issue if they inserted dnd in mtg before the spark thing started: back then even artefacts could allow universe travel and summoning.
Since time travel is possible in dnd you could just have a dnd character time travel to the past then go in mtg before the spark thing and thus justify the fact you can summon even modern dnd character without needing any dnd characters to be sparks in the modern mtg world because spark's summons are just reflection of memories and thus can be made without current dimensional access to the creature: you just need old enough people who met those dnd characters to be around and to have acquired sparks at some point after it became a thing.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are different planets. (Or, technically, they are different settings focused on different planets. The Forgotten Realms setting focuses on the world of Toril and the Greyhawk setting focuses on the world of Oerth.) Greyhawk was one of, if not the, first major campaign settings, so many of the major ancient historical legacy D&D characters like Mordenkainen and Tasha (many of whom are just the personal PCs of the creators) are from there, but the Forgotten Realms is the one they chose as the focus for "vanilla" fifth edition, so it has gotten much more press and popularity with the modern crowd, and it is also the one in which the Baldur's Gate video game series, most published adventures, and the upcoming movie are set, so it makes more sense to make the set there because of brand cohesion.
> 
> EDIT: And in the like hour it took me to write this three people returned an unblocked post to their hand and put posts that said the same thing, just shorter and easier to parse, onto the battlefield tapped and attacking.
> 
> In "vanilla" D&D, all settings, stylized in-universe as versions or sections of the material plane, are connected in some way and accessible to each other with strong enough magic (even if they have seemingly mutually exclusive cosmologies) and several characters, especially the aforementioned powerful legacy characters, which is how people in the Forgotten Realms know about Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion. 
> 
> These characters, including Elminster, who is from the Forgotten Realms but is in a similar space power-wise to the others, fit the image of a Planeswalker both in ability and in the old-walker image of them, but the mechanics are very different. I think that at the end of the day they decided that the multiversal mechanics of the properties of planeswalking and planeshifting were so incompatible that they could either have no planeswalkers or just make any character they wanted who had technically been to other planes a 'walker despite the lore implications and chose the latter. For some of them, like the Archmages, they went with something that felt tonally appropriate, but for others they just chose characters that were popular and/or fun. At the end of the day, the actual thing that differentiates the card type in MTG is the spark, which makes you not a creature and has specific lore meanings that aren't matched in D&D, so it is all moot.
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation!

Demons in MtG cosmology depend on the plane, as ever. Innistrad's live in an Abyss like hell and can come out if called, demons on Kaladesh are ear-worms that strike people like Dwarf Fortress crafting moods.

Was specifically thinking about Ugin (I don't know about you but I'd have anxiety over Bolas weaponizing his trauma to conqueror and slaughter millions). Though yeah Sarkhan definitely fits that bill too.

Hey now, Jackal Mom wasn't brainwashed when she affirmed Samut's faith!




> I agree. Luckily, so did they, which is why they didn't do it, they just sort of reimagined the characters with MTG mechanics.


For what it's worth I do agree that it's better for the Forgotten Realms to not be part of the MtG multiverse! I just don't get what the big deal about it is; nothing as described feels out of place to me, and some of you seem pretty aggro about the mere thought of it. Sorry about that.

----------


## Personification

> None of the "spark for summoning and multiverse travel" thing would be an issue if they inserted dnd in mtg before the spark thing started: back then even artefacts could allow universe travel and summoning.
> Since time travel is possible in dnd you could just have a dnd character time travel to the past then go in mtg before the spark thing and thus justify the fact you can summon even modern dnd character without needing any dnd characters to be sparks in the modern mtg world because spark's summons are just reflection of memories and thus can be made without current dimensional access to the creature: you just need old enough people who met those dnd characters to be around and to have acquired sparks at some point after it became a thing.


Sparks always existed, they just used to give godlike power. The mending just nerfed sparks and closed all of the planar portals, so it took like 60 years for them to come back (in the form of the planar bridge). The issues with the cosmologies lining up are still there though. Even if you say that the Great Wheel is a Kaldheim/Shard of 12 Worlds situation, there are still issues. Earth (like our Earth) is definitely in D&D and definitely not in MTG. Magic works super differently, too, and there would definitely be Planeswalkers in D&D worlds (which would become godlike beings pre-mending) and visitors from other planes. If you want, you can headcanon what you like and run your D&D games whichever way you'd like, I certainly won't call badwrongfun, but as a practical unified lore solution for WotC, this doesn't work. Plus, WotC already made their decision, which is that they are separate continuities in official material, and announced it both out-of-universe and in-universe through the mechanics. All of the setting books are post mending and none of the AFR or CLB planeswalkers make sense as people who sparked, pre- or post-mending.

EDIT: No aggro is intended, I am just heavily invested in the lore and like to dig into it in discussion. I didn't construe any confusion or disagreement as an insult to me and no insult to anyone (except Urza) is intended in anything I say. I don't know if you were referring to me, but if you were I apologize for giving you that impression. In text, enthusiasm sometimes comes across as anger.

----------


## Zombimode

> For what it's worth I do agree that it's better for the Forgotten Realms to not be part of the MtG multiverse! I just don't get what the big deal about it is; nothing as described feels out of place to me, and some of you seem pretty aggro about the mere thought of it. Sorry about that.


If I came about as aggro, I'm sorry. That definitely doesn't match how I actually feel about this  :Small Big Grin: 
Text is sometimes deceptive, I guess.

I think I'm just mildly annoyed how low-effort and lazy this set appears to me in regards of actually making use of the Forgotten Realms setting.
Instead we get scores of Greyhawk characters and Minsc as a planeswalker  :Small Wink:

----------


## Personification

> If I came about as aggro, I'm sorry. That definitely doesn't match how I actually feel about this 
> Text is sometimes deceptive, I guess.
> 
> I think I'm just mildly annoyed how low-effort and lazy this set appears to me in regards of actually making use of the Forgotten Realms setting.
> Instead we get scores of Greyhawk characters and Minsc as a planeswalker


Scores? We got Tasha and I think that's it, and they gave Minsc a planeswalker card probably because they had a good design for one and it makes no mechanical difference anyway. Plus, they hit a ton of good D&D stuff, as I understand it got nearly every PC from the video games, and made what, I have been told, is a great draft environment.

----------


## NeoVid

> There are two wizards from Forgotten Realms that might qualify. Elminster and Mordenkainen. Elminster was canonically on earth looking for apprentices. I think Mordenkainen is a master wizard on Greyhawk AND the Forgotten Realms. And he is most definitely been seen on Ravenloft. But aside from old boring men in bathrobes, FR has actually canonically disabled powerful magic by an edict of the god of magic and the overgod.


Reading this reminded me that Halaster Blackcloak was higher level than Elminster, despite not having the advantage of being an author avatar.  And made me realize that Halaster would have been a freaking awesome and horrifying character to make into a canonical Planeswalker.

Come to think of it, if Undermountain isn't a legendary land, I'll be sad for a while.

----------


## Zombimode

> Scores? We got Tasha and I think that's it, and they gave Minsc a planeswalker card probably because they had a good design for one and it makes no mechanical difference anyway. Plus, they hit a ton of good D&D stuff, as I understand it got nearly every PC from the video games, and made what, I have been told, is a great draft environment.


Going over the complete set, you're right. There are not "scores" of Greyhawk characters. It's Tasha and a reference to Bigby in one card. Still, two are two too many. They couldn't be bothered to find an actual Forgotten Realms character for the Tasha card?

Named characters in general. I didn't recognize like 80% of the names. I can only assume that these are characters from the Larian Baldurs Gate game, right?
And some of the references that I do recognize seem like really strange choices. Obscure creatures like the Hollyphant or the Nothic.
Or featuring Alora of all things - a character that is extremely easy to miss, and because you meet her so late into that game almost nobody had her in the party.

There are so many strange choices in what to represent and how so that at least in my eyes the set is not a very convincing setting representation of either Baldurs Gate or the Forgotten Realms.


Hm... or maybe the set is meant to feature Larians vision of the setting. That would probably explain a lot of the design decisions.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Going over the complete set, you're right. There are not "scores" of Greyhawk characters. It's Tasha and a reference to Bigby in one card. Still, two are two too many. They couldn't be bothered to find an actual Forgotten Realms character for the Tasha card?
> 
> Named characters in general. I didn't recognize like 80% of the names. I can only assume that these are characters from the Larian Baldurs Gate game, right?
> And some of the references that I do recognize seem like really strange choices. Obscure creatures like the Hollyphant or the Nothic.
> Or featuring Alora of all things - a character that is extremely easy to miss, and because you meet her so late into that game almost nobody had her in the party.
> 
> There are so many strange choices in what to represent and how so that at least in my eyes the set is not a very convincing setting representation of either Baldurs Gate or the Forgotten Realms.
> 
> 
> Hm... or maybe the set is meant to feature Larians vision of the setting. That would probably explain a lot of the design decisions.


Tasha recently had a book come out, and is a popular character everyone likes. She also became friends with Mordenkainen. Tasha being a Planeswalker and the only Greyhawk character in the set might be connected, for those reasons.

Basically every named character is from the Baldur's Gate games. Not just the third one either (it's actually in the minority on that front), but the originals as well. There's a handful of OCs, mostly the Dragonborn ones. They went for deep cuts for people like you who WOULD recognize them; like "oh **** it's a Hollyphant! Or oh dang that's a Nothic, those are cool". That kinda thing.

Honestly, the sheer variety and weirdness of the set is what best encompasses DND to me. Yeah you can be a halfling paladin with a minor nature theme, that's cool. You can be a dragonborn sorcerer with incredible power. You can be a dude who eats magic items like snacks. DND lets you be whoever you want, so showcasing that with a wide range of characters both obscure and well known makes sense!

----------


## Fable Wright

> Tasha recently had a book come out, and is a popular character everyone likes.


Not to derail, but can I have a citation on Tasha being liked? I've seen a substantial amount of backlash for how she gets away with a Neutral alignment despite being Chaotic Evil in every prior edition, backlash against her book removing mechanical depth from 5e, and complaints about her portrayal.

----------


## Spore

> Reading this reminded me that Halaster Blackcloak was higher level than Elminster, despite not having the advantage of being an author avatar.  And made me realize that Halaster would have been a freaking awesome and horrifying character to make into a canonical Planeswalker.
> 
> Come to think of it, if Undermountain isn't a legendary land, I'll be sad for a while.


Halaster and Tasha are great, yes. But the spaces of douchebag mad wizard and bad bitch witch are already taken.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Not to derail, but can I have a citation on Tasha being liked? I've seen a substantial amount of backlash for how she gets away with a Neutral alignment despite being Chaotic Evil in every prior edition, backlash against her book removing mechanical depth from 5e, and complaints about her portrayal.


Admittedly I'm only aware of what I've seen, and what I've seen is people liking her. She's a cool witch lady with named spells and a rad vibe.

Also I have no idea how her book "removes mechanical depth from 5e", as I've read it and think it's rad, but that's for another thread.

----------


## Dienekes

> Not to derail, but can I have a citation on Tasha being liked? I've seen a substantial amount of backlash for how she gets away with a Neutral alignment despite being Chaotic Evil in every prior edition, backlash against her book removing mechanical depth from 5e, and complaints about her portrayal.


She's... a lot. 

There's been a kind of shift I've noticed recently that a lot of conventionally attractive female villains get their harsh edges scrapped aside and turned into some kind of cheeky heroine. And Tasha is the D&D example. I'm generally not a fan of it, especially when they get saddled with the "lol random" style of humor that seems so popular these days. But, I don't think it would be a trend if it wasn't popular. 

Iggwilv may to me remain the vile lover of Graz'zt, whose lust for power made them both betray each other, mother of evils spread over the planes. Delighting in torment and reaping the benefits of madness wherever she goes. Who pretty much just deserves an axe to the face on sight.

But I have a feeling now that D&D audience has grown quite dramatically over the last few years. The toned down, "clever snarky" witch presented in Tasha's Cauldron will have as big if not bigger the audience she had before. I don't have numbers, obviously, but I also don't think WotC would use her again so soon if there wasn't some positive response to her.

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## Zombimode

> Basically every named character is from the Baldur's Gate games. Not just the third one either (it's actually in the minority on that front), but the originals as well.


Hm, among the legendary creatures and planeswalkers I've counted 19 characters that appear in some way in the original trilogy. But that includes Abdel Adrian, who is %Charname in the novelization and thus does not actually appear in game. And Myrkul who has no active role in the plot. That leaves 17 characters.
Contrast that with 40 characters that do not appear in the original trilogy.

Combine that with the art direction, the choice of references and general tone I don't think it is unfair to say that neither the original trilogy nor the Forgotten Realms as a setting was the focus of the Battle for Baldurs Gate magic set. Instead it focuses more on the more recent additions to the general D&D lore.

That's not really a criticism, mind you. Just an observation.

----------


## NeoVid

> Halaster and Tasha are great, yes. But the spaces of douchebag mad wizard and bad bitch witch are already taken.


Solid point, I'll just have to keep hoping we see Braids as a planeswalker someday.




> There's been a kind of shift I've noticed recently that a lot of conventionally attractive female villains get their harsh edges scrapped aside and turned into some kind of cheeky heroine. And Tasha is the D&D example. I'm generally not a fan of it, especially when they get saddled with the "lol random" style of humor that seems so popular these days. But, I don't think it would be a trend if it wasn't popular.


Hearing Tasha described as attractive is weirding me out, considering the first backstory I heard about her was that's she's actually a hag who disguised herself to take up adventuring.

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## Dienekes

> Hearing Tasha described as attractive is weirding me out, considering the first backstory I heard about her was that's she's actually a hag who disguised herself to take up adventuring.


As far as I'm aware, she not a hag technically. But she may be very, very old (which honestly, that is just what a hag looks like with claw fingernails) and glamoring herself with magic. But, every piece of art with her was essentially a lithe Elvira with straight hair. So I'm counting her as being conventionally attractive female.

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## Personification

On the Tasha attractiveness point, my understanding is that she looks however she wants to, and she tends to choose to look like a conventionally attractive woman.

Also, I don't care what they do with the lore, she made what is objectively the best first level spell (Hideous Laughter, I will not be taking comments) and that makes me like her.

----------


## noob

> Also, I don't care what they do with the lore, she made what is objectively the best first level spell (Hideous Laughter, I will not be taking comments) and that makes me like her.


Of course it is a strong level 1 spell: it used to be a level 2 spell then got shoved in level 1 for some reason.

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## Spore

> As far as I'm aware, she not a hag technically. But she may be very, very old (which honestly, that is just what a hag looks like with claw fingernails) and glamoring herself with magic. But, every piece of art with her was essentially a lithe Elvira with straight hair. So I'm counting her as being conventionally attractive female.


Everything that is hag or hag adjacent and extremely old I do not trust on face value. But she is a human wizard (according to D&D 3.5 and probably Magic as well). She created a pocket plane in the feywild, and is more or less the gal that the hags REPORT to. She does not need to be a hag, when she is the witch queen of all hags.




> Of course it is a strong level 1 spell: it used to be a level 2 spell then got shoved in level 1 for some reason.


I play a lot of clerics in 5e, which happens to often target humans and will/wisdom saves. Believe me, Laughter being first level is appropriate. You lock down anyone that has a sense of humor. But the simplifications in the rules made the spell powerful again.

In 3.5 every other schmuck was immune to enchantments or had huge situational boni against it. In 5e you suddenly can make a skeleton laugh. Or an elemental.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Everything that is hag or hag adjacent and extremely old I do not trust on face value. But she is a human wizard (according to D&D 3.5 and probably Magic as well). She created a pocket plane in the feywild, and is more or less the gal that the hags REPORT to. She does not need to be a hag, when she is the witch queen of all hags.
> 
> 
> 
> I play a lot of clerics in 5e, which happens to often target humans and will/wisdom saves. Believe me, Laughter being first level is appropriate. You lock down anyone that has a sense of humor. But the simplifications in the rules made the spell powerful again.
> 
> In 3.5 every other schmuck was immune to enchantments or had huge situational boni against it. In 5e you suddenly can make a skeleton laugh. Or an elemental.


Elementals are sentient and sapient so that makes sense, and it's magically compulsive laughter- even if skeletons can't find anything particularly funny, they are capable of miming the actions of laughter, make no bones about it.

----------


## Androgeus

> even if skeletons can't find anything particularly funny, they are capable of miming the actions of laughter, make no bones about it.


Surely any well made spell will be able to find a skeletons funny bone?

----------


## Giggling Ghast

Hard Drive is a satirical website. You might have heard about their ongoing feud with Elon Musk.

https://hard-drive.net/new-magic-the...your-opponent/

Naturally, its used most often against Blue players.

----------


## Spore

> Naturally, its used most often against Blue players.


What if my favorite colors are Izzet? Do we start a punchout?

(Sideboarding Grixis, so I have a knife hidden in the dark).




> Surely any well made spell will be able to find a skeletons funny bone?


Is this the Undertale thread?

----------


## Personification

We're getting a dedicated Gladiator Queue!

----------


## LaZodiac

The Dominaria United story starts today!

*Spoiler: Episode 1: Karn's no good very bad day*
Show

We open on Karn ruminating on Urza being the worst father imaginable- but faced with the sad reality that he's kinda faling into his old man's patterns. Excavating the Cave of Koilos alone (it's easier, safer that way) and running afoul of Phyrexian agents on the plane, including fan favorite minor legendary card from the first Dominaria set; Rona! Sheoldred is also there, slowly being reconstructed after the Planar Gate travel, from old Phyrexian parts and new meat. Karn intends to kill them all as he charges towards Sheoldred with a bomb he magics up... but the weight of his past makes him unable to bring the hammer down on Rona himself, preferring the "bloodless" idea of just blowing them all up instead.

This ****s him over. Rona, though broken and battered, is not dead- and is Phyrexian in will if not body yet. She just forces herself through the pain and freezes him with a machine of her own devising, intended for him when he showed up (after Sheoldred stuns him a bit by whispering secrets to him. Turns out they have sleeper agents EVERYWHERE). She and Sheoldred leave, and bring the entire section of the cave they were prepping the invasion from down on him. They have other bases, losing this one is sad but nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Karn is locked under a metric ton of rock and old Phyrexian tech, can't move at all. So, time to planeswalk out... except all the old Phyrexian tech includes all the old portal tech, and while it's no longer functional as portals, they DO destabilize aether in the area... and the literal entire boat of it laying on top of him is stopping him from walking out. Alone, distant from anyone he could have trusted (afraid they'd die like Venser) Karn realizes he's kinda ****ed everything.

I'm calling that the "United" in Dominaria United is going to be... of a more compleat unity than expected, honestly. Phyrexia's won this one- the infestation is already here. Will the Planeswalkers who DO know Phyrexia is coming have time to unite with Karn's friends and organize a defense... or is Dominaria going to be the final domino in Elesh Norn's grand schema? We shall see!

----------


## Lord Raziere

*Spoiler: On Dominaria United*
Show

Hopefully not. kinda of a jerk writer move to make all of Urza's and Dominaria's sacrifices during Apocalypse meaningless like that. like seriously the amount of normal people and planeswalkers that died in the process of killing Yawgmoth is probably second only to War of the Spark now, and that was back when they were all godlike entities. if all we're getting is Phyrexian Invasion 2 but with plot armor to make it succeed, I'm just rolling my eyes, cause they are never going to match the original story.

----------


## Dienekes

> *Spoiler: On Dominaria United*
> Show
> 
> Hopefully not. kinda of a jerk writer move to make all of Urza's and Dominaria's sacrifices during Apocalypse meaningless like that. like seriously the amount of normal people and planeswalkers that died in the process of killing Yawgmoth is probably second only to War of the Spark now, and that was back when they were all godlike entities. if all we're getting is Phyrexian Invasion 2 but with plot armor to make it succeed, I'm just rolling my eyes, cause they are never going to match the original story.


*Spoiler*
Show


Thats what happens when a story goes on after the finale. You cant do the same story twice, so if youre doing the same framework gotta make it different somehow. Having the villains ascend for awhile could do it. 

You are right of course. It does kinda leave a bad taste. But then, Im still far more attached to Gerard, Squee, Sisay, Tahngarth, Astor the Upstart, Bo Levar, and, of course, Commodore Guff than pretty much any of the current crop of characters. 

But thats probably a lot of nostalgia talking.

Hopefully the story is well written and meaningful whatever they do with it.

----------


## LaZodiac

> *Spoiler: On Dominaria United*
> Show
> 
> Hopefully not. kinda of a jerk writer move to make all of Urza's and Dominaria's sacrifices during Apocalypse meaningless like that. like seriously the amount of normal people and planeswalkers that died in the process of killing Yawgmoth is probably second only to War of the Spark now, and that was back when they were all godlike entities. if all we're getting is Phyrexian Invasion 2 but with plot armor to make it succeed, I'm just rolling my eyes, cause they are never going to match the original story.


For what it's worth I don't think they'll bother, like, attacking Dominaria. They're here to get supplies. My guess is Elesh Norn wants to ascend to godhood as a Mother of Machines, and they want some old tech for it.

----------


## Personification

I urge everyone to play the Gladiator event on Arena. It's probably the most fun I've had playing since I started. If you don't have a huge collection, they have provided 10 decks that you can use phantom, and you can save the lists to actually craft the cards if you want, but you can also make your own decks to play. It's only available until the 15th, and presumably if it does well they will add an actual long-term queue so please play it. 

I've been having a ton of success with my own personal brew here. (Which might be why I am enjoying the format so much. It is allowing my inner Spike to validate my Inner Johnny)

As one of the 3 Vorthoses of the thread's title, take the fact that I am more excited about this than the DMU lore (which has been very good so far) as evidence of the quality of the format.

----------


## LaZodiac

> As one of the 3 Vorthoses of the thread's title, take the fact that I am more excited about this than the DMU lore (which has been very good so far) as evidence of the quality of the format.


The only reason I haven't posted my quick recaps of the stories is because I didn't wanna double post. But yeah that's a good point.

ANYWAY

Three stories to go over, yesterday's and the TWO today.

*Spoiler: DomU Chapter 2: Karn squishes a bird, ruins two countries worth of peace time*
Show

Long and short of this one; Karn was stuck for months, finally got saved by Ajani since the letters Jhoira sent him had a magical tracker on them that let her know he left her on read for who knows how long. Karn experiences genuine anxiety over this, which is beautiful. They go to the place New Benalia and the Keld are holding peace talks, and no one really believes Karn about Sheoldred... until Teferi shows up reporting about Kaya's encounter with Daddy Vorebucks and Jin being on Kamigawa. He also later tells the walkers in confidence that Tamiyo got got, so now they know how threatening this truly is. Karn hides the Silex, the next morning finds a sleeper agent spy-bird, and revealing that to the collected people here makes things Not Great- Anor Capashen (the leader of the Capashen house and current boss of New Benalia) gets kidnapped by sleeper agents who wake up, Radha takes the remaining living Benalian's and her Keldons and fights a retreating battle. Ajani chases after the kidnapped Capashen so he misses out on Karn, Jaya, Jodha, Teferi, and the New Argivian mediator Stenn teleporting out to a New Argivian watchtower for safety... but a phyrexian slips in with them. The place goes on lockdown, and it becomes...


*Spoiler: DomU Chapter 3: Old Walker Squad Play Among Us*
Show

... a story of Find The Nasty Lad! Feels very reminescent of scenes from The Thing, especially given the absolutely brutal body horror. I love it; eyeballs with teeth for eyelashes, hands coming out of eyes, ripcages opening up like zippers. It's brilliant. Karn sets things up so he can tell fake info to each person with him in turn to see who is a potential Sleeper agent among them as they play pin the tail on the Phyrexian- a difficult thing given near every time it's attacked it splits into two, and the inner organs unfold out to become legs! Jaya gets hurt, Johda runs out of steam, Teferi just about gets eviserated, and it becomes clear this entire watchtower is infected, the Phyrexian's everwhere. Sadly Stenn is the Phyrexian agent... and given his job before mediating was "root out the sleeper agents" it is likely that New Argive belongs to the Machine Orthodoxy now. They call for the Weatherlight, and hope it arrives in time to rescue them.


We also got our first side story, featuring everyone's unproblematic fav who did no wrong, Liliana Vess!

*Spoiler: DomU Side Story: Liliana is the best character don't at me*
Show

Back on Arcavios, Liliana is depressed and sad and feels she deserves it. Wrong but valid. Then good ole Raven Man shows up, makes her break her favorite cup, and she decides she's officially hit rock bottom: time to find a way to rip this ****er out of her head. She studies the books in Strixhaven's massive library, and eventually finds it out; THE Necromancer, Lim-Dul himself, confirming a long held theory about the guy. She returns to her home to see what it was he kept bugging her about, and it turns out he needs her to fight the Phyrexians- a Dominarian Kor lady (Elas il-Kor, who has amazing art) is trying to dig up the last remnant of Lim-Dul that's currently available, the ring of that one body snatcher wizard that Lim-Dul kinda overpowered. If you're an old lorehead you know the one, Marsi or something?

Point is, they want the ring. Which means Liliana is gonna murderize some Phyrexians, which she does quite effectively. Elas escapes to be a cool legendary in the set, and Liliana uses magic to bury the ring even further into the depths- not taking it and specifically NOT using any of its powers, cause she's tired of working for a crusty old man who won't get out of her skull. Raven Man seems satisfied though, since nominally this is all things he wanted to happen.


If this all sounds messily recapped that is because of me, not the story itself. This is probably the best the story has been in a long time, and I am saying that as someone who actually LIKES the story content we've gotten. They're clearly reaching for the stars and actually making it. Props to Seanan McGuire for finally giving Liliana some respect after everyone was very rude and mean to her in War of the Spark, and after she was Just Kind Of There (but still done well) in Strixhaven.

----------


## RayGallade

> I urge everyone to play the Gladiator event on Arena. It's probably the most fun I've had playing since I started. If you don't have a huge collection, they have provided 10 decks that you can use phantom, and you can save the lists to actually craft the cards if you want, but you can also make your own decks to play. It's only available until the 15th, and presumably if it does well they will add an actual long-term queue so please play it. 
> 
> I've been having a ton of success with my own personal brew here. (Which might be why I am enjoying the format so much. It is allowing my inner Spike to validate my Inner Johnny)
> 
> As one of the 3 Vorthoses of the thread's title, take the fact that I am more excited about this than the DMU lore (which has been very good so far) as evidence of the quality of the format.


See, I had the complete opposite reaction to it. I threw together a list running almost every Phyrexian related creature/card along with all the Tezzerets, Compleated Tamiyo, ValkiTibalt, and so on. Figured it was thematic, fun, and could communicate the theme as I played out the smaller Phyrexians. Then I promptly ran into a ton of hyper aggressive red decks, Esper Control lists, theft decks, and so on. Without a commander to fall back on, I just felt like I was running into a wall of Spikes instead of the Timmies and Johnnies that I was looking for.
Ended up switching to a low-to-the-ground Goblin deck to get my two Bo3 wins and leave the event.

----------


## LaZodiac

> See, I had the complete opposite reaction to it. I threw together a list running almost every Phyrexian related creature/card along with all the Tezzerets, Compleated Tamiyo, ValkiTibalt, and so on. Figured it was thematic, fun, and could communicate the theme as I played out the smaller Phyrexians. Then I promptly ran into a ton of hyper aggressive red decks, Esper Control lists, theft decks, and so on. Without a commander to fall back on, I just felt like I was running into a wall of Spikes instead of the Timmies and Johnnies that I was looking for.
> Ended up switching to a low-to-the-ground Goblin deck to get my two Bo3 wins and leave the event.


For what it's worth you're likely to get a new Phyrexian commander in the next set.

----------


## Personification

> The only reason I haven't posted my quick recaps of the stories is because I didn't wanna double post. But yeah that's a good point.
> 
> ANYWAY
> 
> Three stories to go over, yesterday's and the TWO today.
> 
> *Spoiler: DomU Chapter 2: Karn squishes a bird, ruins two countries worth of peace time*
> Show
> 
> Long and short of this one; Karn was stuck for months, finally got saved by Ajani since the letters Jhoira sent him had a magical tracker on them that let her know he left her on read for who knows how long. Karn experiences genuine anxiety over this, which is beautiful. They go to the place New Benalia and the Keld are holding peace talks, and no one really believes Karn about Sheoldred... until Teferi shows up reporting about Kaya's encounter with Daddy Vorebucks and Jin being on Kamigawa. He also later tells the walkers in confidence that Tamiyo got got, so now they know how threatening this truly is. Karn hides the Silex, the next morning finds a sleeper agent spy-bird, and revealing that to the collected people here makes things Not Great- Anor Capashen (the leader of the Capashen house and current boss of New Benalia) gets kidnapped by sleeper agents who wake up, Radha takes the remaining living Benalian's and her Keldons and fights a retreating battle. Ajani chases after the kidnapped Capashen so he misses out on Karn, Jaya, Jodha, Teferi, and the New Argivian mediator Stenn teleporting out to a New Argivian watchtower for safety... but a phyrexian slips in with them. The place goes on lockdown, and it becomes...


First of all, I am stealing Daddy Vorebucks. 
*Spoiler: My thoughts*
Show

 I think your summary pretty much does it, though you skipped the part about the actual squishing of the bird (a varied thrush, as the story tells us nine times) which Karn honestly waited way too long to squish because he probably guessed that it could be a spy pretty soon. I will also say that he probably didn't ruin the peace talks, though he did cause some friction (Teferi caused more) and it felt weird that all of these walkers felt the need (and had the ability) to barge into the late stages of a sensitive meeting to announce it rather than go to the leaders of individual regions at a better moment. Why even choose Benalia and Keld first anyway? Sheoldred's base was in the Caves of Koilos on Terisiaire (another continent/archipelago). Similarly, it felt like all of the oldwalkers (and Jodah, who is older than most of them) were carrying the conflict ball. For ancient beings who have been friends, or at least friendly, for lifetimes, they all seemed intent on behaving in the most soap-operatic way with regards to interpreting each others words. Because this all sounds negative, I want to clarify that I loved the story and I'm just being nitpicky. I also really liked how it showed Ajani's reaction to Tamiyo, and I could almost feel him barely being able to resist the urge to walk to Kamigawa to make sure Nashi is OK (he's probably not) and then immediately run to phyrexia to start splitting heads.





> *Spoiler: DomU Chapter 3: Old Walker Squad Play Among Us*
> Show
> 
> ... a story of Find The Nasty Lad! Feels very reminescent of scenes from The Thing, especially given the absolutely brutal body horror. I love it; eyeballs with teeth for eyelashes, hands coming out of eyes, ripcages opening up like zippers. It's brilliant. Karn sets things up so he can tell fake info to each person with him in turn to see who is a potential Sleeper agent among them as they play pin the tail on the Phyrexian- a difficult thing given near every time it's attacked it splits into two, and the inner organs unfold out to become legs! Jaya gets hurt, Johda runs out of steam, Teferi just about gets eviserated, and it becomes clear this entire watchtower is infected, the Phyrexian's everwhere. Sadly Stenn is the Phyrexian agent... and given his job before mediating was "root out the sleeper agents" it is likely that New Argive belongs to the Machine Orthodoxy now. They call for the Weatherlight, and hope it arrives in time to rescue them.


*Spoiler: (That thunk-thunk sound. Not the Netflix one or the Law & Order one, you know the one)*
Show

I totally agree with your positive comments. I didn't catch the Thing-ness until you mentioned it, but in hindsight the connection is obvious. We also got what looks to be the art for another Multi-Kicker Combo with Jodah and Jaya, which I can't wait to see and I think is a great way to use the mechanic and create ludonarrative harmony. Similarly, I am staking my claim now that the very heavy focus on Phyrexians dividing up is a way of incorporating the return of modular (or a similar mechanic) into the story. If not modular, it will be something along the lines of the Ooze from AFR. My only complaints are that the conflict ball thing from the previous chapters continued into this one and that Stenn was so obviously the Imposter (thunk-thunk) that the only reason I had to doubt it was that he was too obvious. He even went into the boiler room, alone, after lampshading that he shouldn't and survived. I also felt like Teferi did nothing. He is still a very powerful time mage and at no point does he even try to use his magic onscreen until he is bleeding out and therefore too weak to make the spell work (Jodah also felt a bit too weak, though the explanation that non-planeswalking portaling is super-extra-hard and draining was enough of a handwave). 





> We also got our first side story, featuring everyone's unproblematic fav who did no wrong, Liliana Vess!
> 
> *Spoiler: DomU Side Story: Liliana is the best character don't at me*
> Show
> 
> Back on Arcavios, Liliana is depressed and sad and feels she deserves it. Wrong but valid. Then good ole Raven Man shows up, makes her break her favorite cup, and she decides she's officially hit rock bottom: time to find a way to rip this ****er out of her head. She studies the books in Strixhaven's massive library, and eventually finds it out; THE Necromancer, Lim-Dul himself, confirming a long held theory about the guy. She returns to her home to see what it was he kept bugging her about, and it turns out he needs her to fight the Phyrexians- a Dominarian Kor lady (Elas il-Kor, who has amazing art) is trying to dig up the last remnant of Lim-Dul that's currently available, the ring of that one body snatcher wizard that Lim-Dul kinda overpowered. If you're an old lorehead you know the one, Marsi or something?
> 
> Point is, they want the ring. Which means Liliana is gonna murderize some Phyrexians, which she does quite effectively. Elas escapes to be a cool legendary in the set, and Liliana uses magic to bury the ring even further into the depths- not taking it and specifically NOT using any of its powers, cause she's tired of working for a crusty old man who won't get out of her skull. Raven Man seems satisfied though, since nominally this is all things he wanted to happen.
> 
> ...


*Spoiler: I won't bother arguing with your first assertion and mostly agree with your second one*
Show

I mostly agree with your points (though I do think that Lili was actually fairly well characterized in WAR: Ravnica from my admittedly hazy memory of my one read through. She didn't get enough page time to deviate from the outline of her arc's end, which was too well set up to completely ruin, and I felt that her conflicting thoughts accurately portrayed the mono-black ideal of "better to die epically than be enslaved eternally to someone I hate". That's not to say that the book was good, just not the worst. And if you mean the other one I don't know what you are talking about they never published a second WAR book.) and the summary overall is good so I'm just going to add my own thoughts. First, I absolutely loved the opening, a reminder that Arcavios is neither Liliana's birth home (RavnicaDominaria (stupid autopilot brain)) nor her chosen one (Innistrad). Apparently, when not stinging Nick Cage to death the bees of Gavony make really good honey. The way it was written was very poetic and it immediately reminds the reader what the setting is and who the character is, plus, I like the little things in lore. I also really liked her musing about the way that, having become more swampy than foresty, the Caligo is more attuned with her now, and I liked the nod to the fact that every Dominarian learns of the ancient phyrexian invasion and every planeswalker learns of the evil workings of the Yawgfather of Machines. A little note that, whether intentional or not, adds a point of extra tragedy to the character of Elas _il_-Kor is that among the Rathi tribes, the prefix _en-_ meant that they had allied themselves with the evincars and the Phyrexians, and _il-_ meant that they were part of the resistance, so I am going to take this to mean that Elas was one in a long line of anti-Phyrexian resistors compleated against their will. Also, for the record, the original owner of the ring was Mairsl (called The Pretender). Last we knew of it, the ring (assuming it is the one seen in previous stories) was controlling Jaya until she sparked, breaking its hold on her and presumably destroying it and the remnants of the souls of Lim-Dûl and Mairsil (called The Pretender) within it. Obviously if it is that ring then it actually survived the event and was passed down from mage to mage until it was obtained by a Lord or Lady of the House of Vess. Thankfully, the House of Vess have long been, and always will be, unwavering supporters and often members of the Forward Order, who focus on healing magic and purity, so at that point it was buried, never again to be used for evil. What could possibly go wrong! The repeated mention of being a link in the chain could also mean that there is a tie to the Chain Veil, an artifact from Shandalar, where the actual Lim-Dûl was last seen, that contains trapped souls. I feel like there is a heavy implication that the goal was, at least partly, to literally turn Liliana into another link in the chain of the veil, but that also conflicts with the theory that this is the part of Lim-Dûl that is trapped in the ring of Mairsil (called The Pretender) so *shrug*. Also, I will admit that I am not that old of a Vorthos. I just read through the MTG Wiki pages of Lim-Dûl and Vess Manor after reading the story.





> See, I had the complete opposite reaction to it. I threw together a list running almost every Phyrexian related creature/card along with all the Tezzerets, Compleated Tamiyo, ValkiTibalt, and so on. Figured it was thematic, fun, and could communicate the theme as I played out the smaller Phyrexians. Then I promptly ran into a ton of hyper aggressive red decks, Esper Control lists, theft decks, and so on. Without a commander to fall back on, I just felt like I was running into a wall of Spikes instead of the Timmies and Johnnies that I was looking for.
> Ended up switching to a low-to-the-ground Goblin deck to get my two Bo3 wins and leave the event.


I think the issue was the approach to the format. Though they have many similarities, Gladiator isn't really that much like Historic Brawl, and shouldn't be treated as such. It is a format for Spikes (or people who are willing to give into their Spikiness) who want to use their old favorite tech card but in a non-singleton format would have to cut it because there is a better alternative. For example, I don't play Teysa in my Historic Orzhov sacrifice deck, because I don't have space for many 4-drops and Yawgmoth is too good, but in Gladiator I get to play both. Thematic and flavorful decks can and do exist in the format, but to do well only if they are mechanically supported, like elves or goblins. As LaZodiac mentioned, there may well be a Phyrexian tribal deck to play after DMU, but until the type becomes mechanically relevant it probably won't win you many games of gladiator. That said, I recommend trying out some other decks with more spikiness in mind, because it really is fun gameplay.

----------


## LaZodiac

> First of all, I am stealing Daddy Vorebucks. 
> *Spoiler: My thoughts*
> Show
> 
>  I think your summary pretty much does it, though you skipped the part about the actual squishing of the bird (a varied thrush, as the story tells us nine times) which Karn honestly waited way too long to squish because he probably guessed that it could be a spy pretty soon. I will also say that he probably didn't ruin the peace talks, though he did cause some friction (Teferi caused more) and it felt weird that all of these walkers felt the need (and had the ability) to barge into the late stages of a sensitive meeting to announce it rather than go to the leaders of individual regions at a better moment. Why even choose Benalia and Keld first anyway? Sheoldred's base was in the Caves of Koilos on Terisiaire (another continent/archipelago). Similarly, it felt like all of the oldwalkers (and Jodah, who is older than most of them) were carrying the conflict ball. For ancient beings who have been friends, or at least friendly, for lifetimes, they all seemed intent on behaving in the most soap-operatic way with regards to interpreting each others words. Because this all sounds negative, I want to clarify that I loved the story and I'm just being nitpicky. I also really liked how it showed Ajani's reaction to Tamiyo, and I could almost feel him barely being able to resist the urge to walk to Kamigawa to make sure Nashi is OK (he's probably not) and then immediately run to phyrexia to start splitting heads.
> 
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: (That thunk-thunk sound. Not the Netflix one or the Law & Order one, you know the one)*
> ...


*Spoiler: Story stuff!*
Show

They're going to New Benalia and Keld first because historically, the people most likely to drop everything and go murder happy on some flesh robots are those two. One was more or less founded in the wake of Girared killing Yawgmoth, and the other had their entire culture manipulated in service to them, and their cultural revolution was brought on by going "what if we murdered our gods?". So it makes sense to get the biggest powers with the most history in killing Phyrexians to help with the Phyrexians.

While I agree that Stenn was very obviously the imposter, a lotta people didn't notice it! I... do think Teferi was a little downplayed, but only because we just, never got to see him in action. It's hard to use time magic to effective when the entire room is against you. He probably did some rad **** off screen, and will do some cool stuff on screen. Jodha being wiped by the portal spells is, yeah, a little handwavy, but it's been shown teleporting IS pretty rough in this series.

I actually like Liliana in War of the Spark! But most of the fanbase I used to interact with hated her and hated it so I'm defensive of her!

Liliana was born on Dominaria, not Ravnica  :Small Tongue: . Also I agree! Liliana tapping into Caligo was so cool; especially because it ties back to her Of The Veil card, with it's massive black mana generating stuff. That's rad!

Vorthos Jay, the guy who came up with the Lim-Dul theory, posits that Lim-Dul was split in half. He's also one of the Lore consultants and has been subtly over the past year or so floating this idea to people in the story team. I'll post his big write up about it below my response to you, that he did a long time ago (which is going to be followed up soon with a story of how it happened today). The long and short of it is that if you assume all things are canon, Lim-Dul got his soul split- some in the ring, and some in the Chain Veil.


As said; Vorthos Jay's article about the Raven Man. Do note also that before he joined the story team as a lore consultant, he was also the first person to float the idea Mother Luti was Jaya... like, five-ish years before we learned it was the case. The man knows his magic!

----------


## Personification

> *Spoiler: Story stuff!*
> Show
> 
> They're going to New Benalia and Keld first because historically, the people most likely to drop everything and go murder happy on some flesh robots are those two. One was more or less founded in the wake of Girared killing Yawgmoth, and the other had their entire culture manipulated in service to them, and their cultural revolution was brought on by going "what if we murdered our gods?". So it makes sense to get the biggest powers with the most history in killing Phyrexians to help with the Phyrexians.
> 
> While I agree that Stenn was very obviously the imposter, a lotta people didn't notice it! I... do think Teferi was a little downplayed, but only because we just, never got to see him in action. It's hard to use time magic to effective when the entire room is against you. He probably did some rad **** off screen, and will do some cool stuff on screen. Jodha being wiped by the portal spells is, yeah, a little handwavy, but it's been shown teleporting IS pretty rough in this series.
> 
> I actually like Liliana in War of the Spark! But most of the fanbase I used to interact with hated her and hated it so I'm defensive of her!
> 
> ...


I know that Lili was born on Dominaria, which is probably obvious from what I wrote, and I am actively mad at myself for messing it up, and for almost writing Ravnica and Innistrad when attempting to write Dominaria just then (apparently, every time I want to name the plane my brain instead types "plane" into the search bar and hits "I'm feeling lucky").
*Spoiler: I find the epithet "Mairsil, called the Pretender" hilarious for some reason, so I will exclusively refer to him as such*
Show

I also understood the thing about the veil and the ring. My point was that, because as far as we know the pieces of soul are cut off from each other, only one of them can be the piece manipulating Lili, so if the ring is in fact the ring of Mairsil, called the Pretender, it makes the "she was supposed to be just another brick in the wall link in the veil" theory less likely, though it still fits well enough to be plausible, in which case we have two Lim-Dûls (Lims-Dûl?) manipulating her at the same time or the two chunks of soul have somehow reconnected and reconciled.


Unrelated to all of that, I find the fact that she literally thinks, "the Kenriths are walkers, but they are too young to have been in or maybe even know about WAR, and so they probably won't try to get me tried for war crimes (again) unless, like, they somehow know one of the planeswalkers who really REALLY hates me personally, and is likely to want to hunt me down on minimal evidence of my presence (like Garruk or something). And even then they would need to have a mentor or guardian relationship that would make them likely to talk about how they are doing in school, and honestly, what are the odds of that?"

For an infinite multiverse it really is a small world.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Unrelated to all of that, I find the fact that she literally thinks, "the Kenriths are walkers, but they are too young to have been in or maybe even know about WAR, and so they probably won't try to get me tried for war crimes (again) unless, like, they somehow know one of the planeswalkers who really REALLY hates me personally, and is likely to want to hunt me down on minimal evidence of my presence (like Garruk or something). And even then they would need to have a mentor or guardian relationship that would make them likely to talk about how they are doing in school, and honestly, what are the odds of that?"
> 
> For an infinite multiverse it really is a small world.


... god **** I love that. I l love that so much!

I cannot wait for Strixhaven to ask the parents to come in and for Uncle Garruk to go to school.

----------


## Personification

Another mistake I made that I'm kind of embarrassed about**: I flipped the _en-_ and _il-_ prefix meanings. Elas _il_-Kor has the name that is consistent with someone who has joined the phyrexians. This doesn't necessarily mean she did so willingly or started as an _il-_, there is precedent (Greven being a major example) for members of the _en-_ tribes to change their prefix to _il-_ after joining the phyrexians, but my commentary on the name in my original post is still wrong. (I do actually like it better this way, because it keeps the naming convention consistent, I honestly don't know why I got it mixed up I had JUST read the wiki article).

----------


## LaZodiac

Two new magic stories today!

*Spoiler: DomU Chapter 4: Special Guest Staring... HOW???*
Show

After some brief cameos from the cool New Weatherlight team, our heroes decide to split off to begin forming the New Coalition; Karn and Teferi going to Shiv, Jodah going to Yavimaya (specifically Kroog), and Jaya going to fetch Ajani, who is with the Benalians, specifically Danitha, trying to rescue her father Aron. It is at this moment Karn devulges that his scrying lens is disrupted by Phyrexians... and earlier when he tried to scry Ajani, it got disrupted. Ajani was fighting Phyrexians (Karn assumes) during this moment, but... it was not 100% clear.

And then when Jaya goes to meet Ajani, he smiles. Wide. A thing Ajani does not do, as he is cat- something Karn explicitly mentioned earlier in the series. This is concerning. More concerning; Jaya and friends attack the cave Aron's kidnappers escaped to and find ****ING ERTAI???? Somehow alive despite the Phyrexian healing device Squee blew up in his face ages ago... though given his unnatural palor and eyes, he may be some sort of horrified undead Phyrexian. They engage, Danitha killing her compleated father, and Ertai bringing out a Dreadnaught, and threatens to slaughter them all... but will spare them, if given the planeswalkers. Before the sadistic choice can be made Radha flies in with the ancestral Keldon battle ship and turns the tide! **** yeah!

Jodah meets Meria, the leader of the Yavimayan elves, and an intense lover of ancient Thran tech. She is completely Elf about it, saying her people will fight only on their home soil, and not one whit more. Multani will one day let them return to him, and when he does he will strip any sleeper agents from them, leaving only the safe. They are then immediatelly attacked by Rona, driving a Dragon Engine (likely Thraxos himself given they are in Kroog!), waging utter devestation on the land... and unearthing a Thran "weapon" of sorts that Meria uses. Only surviving thanks to Jodah's portal, the weapon is an Oxygen Destroyer from Godzilla, obliterating everything organic in a large area. Rona survives as the cockpit was air tight, and ****s off running. Meria submits and joins the New Coalition.. but Jodah is worried by how immediate and effective this attack was...

At Shiv, Teferi reports that Darigaaz and the dragons are deliberating- and that the Ghitu and Viashino won't be helping if they don't. The goblins meanwhile volunteer, joining first because, quote, they believe it'll give them leverage in the future. They know the others will join, eventually, so why not join up first and get some clout eh? Karn is still putting off talking to Jhoira, but just then the Weatherlight flies by, chased by a Phyrexian airship-creature thing! Darigaaz appears and eradicates it, reporting that politics is done; Shiv will join the New Coalition.

Karn speaks with Jhoira, catching up and talking about their grief, it's quite nice and cute... and then Jodah phones Karn.

There is a traitor among us.

All in all a good story, though I'm fairly certain I know who the traitor is... and if it is Ajani, it's brutal as hell. OF course... it could be Jodah himself, because...


*Spoiler: DomU Side STory 2: Did People Really Like The Carthalion's This Much?*
Show

This story is actually pretty nice... but reads kinda fanficcy and not Great, compared to the others. It's about Ulf, a student at Tolaria at Lat-Nam who is... really not suited for magic, but is a good researcher. He finds a book that could very well serve as information vital to retake Corondor and revitalize the Carthalion name to good standing, breaking their curse. He gets harrassed by Phyrexians about it, but Jared, alive and old but still a gruff badass (who is honestly really really lame to me) saves him. We also learn that Dihada is alive, working for Phyrexia, and is currently bodydoubled in as the Archmage of Tolaria at Lat-nam... which puts open the possibility that Jodah got got, since he often works at the Tolaria schools.

Like I said; nice story, but of a lesser quality than the others. I also just think Jared comes off really lame here. Cool, but a lame sort of cool, a throwback to the 80s.

----------


## noob

> It's about Ulf, a student at Tolaria at Lat-Nam who is... really not suited for magic, but is a good researcher.


So exactly what people wanted to have in high amounts back in the era of the artificers?

----------


## LaZodiac

> So exactly what people wanted to have in high amounts back in the era of the artificers?


Yup! Urf woulda done amazingly back in Urza's time. Shame it's the modern day for the lad.

----------


## Personification

> Two new magic stories today!
> 
> *Spoiler: DomU Chapter 4: Special Guest Staring... HOW???*
> Show
> 
> After some brief cameos from the cool New Weatherlight team, our heroes decide to split off to begin forming the New Coalition; Karn and Teferi going to Shiv, Jodah going to Yavimaya (specifically Kroog), and Jaya going to fetch Ajani, who is with the Benalians, specifically Danitha, trying to rescue her father Aron. It is at this moment Karn devulges that his scrying lens is disrupted by Phyrexians... and earlier when he tried to scry Ajani, it got disrupted. Ajani was fighting Phyrexians (Karn assumes) during this moment, but... it was not 100% clear.
> 
> And then when Jaya goes to meet Ajani, he smiles. Wide. A thing Ajani does not do, as he is cat- something Karn explicitly mentioned earlier in the series. This is concerning. More concerning; Jaya and friends attack the cave Aron's kidnappers escaped to and find ****ING ERTAI???? Somehow alive despite the Phyrexian healing device Squee blew up in his face ages ago... though given his unnatural palor and eyes, he may be some sort of horrified undead Phyrexian. They engage, Danitha killing her compleated father, and Ertai bringing out a Dreadnaught, and threatens to slaughter them all... but will spare them, if given the planeswalkers. Before the sadistic choice can be made Radha flies in with the ancestral Keldon battle ship and turns the tide! **** yeah!
> 
> ...


*Spoiler: I didn't hate it, I just wish I could have read the novel it was a summary of (which would probably have answers to my questions)*
Show


Yeah, both of these stories felt very... summary... to me, especially the main one (something I'm considering referring to as "act 4/5 in the new paradigm" disease). There were elements of this in the earlier chapters, but it definitely feels like it went from "sneaking corruption and an undercover infiltration by Sheoldred's faction in order to get old Phyrexian tech from Dominaria and maybe lay the groundwork for a true invasion" to "there are Phyrexians EVERYWHERE and the sky is falling aaaaaah!!!!" in about five minutes. If they had the strength and inclination to do a full invasion, why only bring Sheoldred's faction and why wait until your cover was blown to attack. They knew Karn had found them and would eventually blow their cover for months, and by waiting until he caught their bird at the peace talks to strike they lost a lot of their advantage. It's implied that they are just here for Karn, the Sylex, and some other stuff and laying the groundwork for an invasion later, but if that's the case how did they take over all of Argive and Tolaria Lat-Nam (home of the Fighting Volvers (not canon)) with nobody noticing?  Why and how is Rona in Yavimaya riding (probably) Traxos? Wasn't he already rampaging when we last saw him in DOM?

My issue wasn't that it was all happening, but that it felt so rushed that I had no time to develop a sense of scale. Are we watching The Thing or War of the Worlds? Similarly, the rushedness led to both an inability to process new information and a very repetative series of false-stakes will-they-or-won't-theys from potential allies. The dragons and most of the other Shivans are still considering it but no they aren't because the Weatherlight, which is covered in decay to hide from the Phyrexians (where? how? why?) is coming chased by not-Skytherix (and thereby we learn that Karn and Teferi are on the ground) and it is immediately saved by Darigaaz. Problem solved! The elves won't help because elves! Except they will because Rona (clearly working on team new coalition here) comes in to make Jodah's point for him and convince them to join. Ajani and Jaya have to give themselves up but no they don't because Radha and her crew fly in on the "Heart of Gold" "Serenity" "Helicarrier From Age Of Ultron" "Unprophesied Second Coming of the Deus Ex-Machina" "Golden Argosy", to save the day. But we have dire news as Jodah has determined that, despite voting Stenn out at the last emergency meeting There is still one imposter among us. How does he know? I read it as being implied by Rona knowing where he was, but we may never be certain. Anyway, no time to think about it, we have an entire block from the nineties to juice into pure nostalgia and only one more chapter to do it!

The second story is similarly disjointed for me. Your analyses of it honestly hit most of my issues with it really well, but I want to reiterate both how little sense the degree of Phyrexian interference, how much people know about it, and its relationship to Dihada and Jared makes. At one point a professor gives Ulf (who really should just switch his major to AG, which according to this means working with horses (it doesn't)) an eye exam to determine he isn't a sleeper agent. Also, as I said before, half of the school is actually a doombot phyrexian because reasons. There is literally nothing connecting the weird Corondor stuff to Phyrexia other than them predating Y2K, and it makes no sense to tie these together. Also, why is there some sort of conspiracy to hide information about Corondor, and is the implication supposed to be that Ulf has library super-magic or that nobody else in a giant school knows how to read an index? This isn't helped by the fact that, as you mentioned, Jared is (according to my quick perusal of his wiki) the most aggressively generic 90's fantasy protagonist that I have ever seen from the Tragic Backstory (tm) to the lost kingdom ruled by a cursed troll to the magic sword to the magical birthmark that makes him the elder druid to the authors somehow thinking that it was a good idea to put him in an intimate relationship with a beautiful-but-actually-1000-years-old woman when he was 16 to the blue ribbon for Conan at the cosplay contest. Also, what has he been doing all of this time? 

I did like learning that Tolaria has an Agriculture major, even if nothing else about the academic system described made sense, and I have a new theory (replacing Oko) that Dihada is the Ozolith planeswalker from IKO (if one of the other 5 people in the world who read that is here to know what I am talking about) which might be cool. If they are setting up Dihada as the next BBEG, I'd actually like that, though her connections to Phyrexia in this make that seem less likely.


As usual, the nature of text and my own nitpickiness make it look like I am much more down on these stories than I actually am. They were both fine, and I'm not mad, I'm just... disappointed. I'm also not surprised. With the exception of maybe the Innistrad sets (and even then, they felt it too) every set since ZNR has had the first three chapters paced like they are out of ten or twelve, and the last paced like a book report, and I am learning to live with that fact ( :Small Sigh: ). Still, this could have gone better, and it just left me confused.

Oh, and the answer to your question is, I believe, "no".

----------


## LaZodiac

> *Spoiler: I didn't hate it, I just wish I could have read the novel it was a summary of (which would probably have answers to my questions)*
> Show
> 
> 
> Yeah, both of these stories felt very... summary... to me, especially the main one (something I'm considering referring to as "act 4/5 in the new paradigm" disease). There were elements of this in the earlier chapters, but it definitely feels like it went from "sneaking corruption and an undercover infiltration by Sheoldred's faction in order to get old Phyrexian tech from Dominaria and maybe lay the groundwork for a true invasion" to "there are Phyrexians EVERYWHERE and the sky is falling aaaaaah!!!!" in about five minutes. If they had the strength and inclination to do a full invasion, why only bring Sheoldred's faction and why wait until your cover was blown to attack. They knew Karn had found them and would eventually blow their cover for months, and by waiting until he caught their bird at the peace talks to strike they lost a lot of their advantage. It's implied that they are just here for Karn, the Sylex, and some other stuff and laying the groundwork for an invasion later, but if that's the case how did they take over all of Argive and Tolaria Lat-Nam (home of the Fighting Volvers (not canon)) with nobody noticing?  Why and how is Rona in Yavimaya riding (probably) Traxos? Wasn't he already rampaging when we last saw him in DOM?
> 
> My issue wasn't that it was all happening, but that it felt so rushed that I had no time to develop a sense of scale. Are we watching The Thing or War of the Worlds? Similarly, the rushedness led to both an inability to process new information and a very repetative series of false-stakes will-they-or-won't-theys from potential allies. The dragons and most of the other Shivans are still considering it but no they aren't because the Weatherlight, which is covered in decay to hide from the Phyrexians (where? how? why?) is coming chased by not-Skytherix (and thereby we learn that Karn and Teferi are on the ground) and it is immediately saved by Darigaaz. Problem solved! The elves won't help because elves! Except they will because Rona (clearly working on team new coalition here) comes in to make Jodah's point for him and convince them to join. Ajani and Jaya have to give themselves up but no they don't because Radha and her crew fly in on the "Heart of Gold" "Serenity" "Helicarrier From Age Of Ultron" "Unprophesied Second Coming of the Deus Ex-Machina" "Golden Argosy", to save the day. But we have dire news as Jodah has determined that, despite voting Stenn out at the last emergency meeting There is still one imposter among us. How does he know? I read it as being implied by Rona knowing where he was, but we may never be certain. Anyway, no time to think about it, we have an entire block from the nineties to juice into pure nostalgia and only one more chapter to do it!
> 
> The second story is similarly disjointed for me. Your analyses of it honestly hit most of my issues with it really well, but I want to reiterate both how little sense the degree of Phyrexian interference, how much people know about it, and its relationship to Dihada and Jared makes. At one point a professor gives Ulf (who really should just switch his major to AG, which according to this means working with horses (it doesn't)) an eye exam to determine he isn't a sleeper agent. Also, as I said before, half of the school is actually a doombot phyrexian because reasons. There is literally nothing connecting the weird Corondor stuff to Phyrexia other than them predating Y2K, and it makes no sense to tie these together. Also, why is there some sort of conspiracy to hide information about Corondor, and is the implication supposed to be that Ulf has library super-magic or that nobody else in a giant school knows how to read an index? This isn't helped by the fact that, as you mentioned, Jared is (according to my quick perusal of his wiki) the most aggressively generic 90's fantasy protagonist that I have ever seen from the Tragic Backstory (tm) to the lost kingdom ruled by a cursed troll to the magic sword to the magical birthmark that makes him the elder druid to the authors somehow thinking that it was a good idea to put him in an intimate relationship with a beautiful-but-actually-1000-years-old woman when he was 16 to the blue ribbon for Conan at the cosplay contest. Also, what has he been doing all of this time? 
> ...


Well, I can answer some of this. They infiltrated Tolaria at Lat-Nam and New Argive during the months Karn was under the rocks in Koilos. There's also an implication they've been doing this for awhile before even then, like after the first experiment with the Planar Bridge Elesh Norn sent out EVERY Praetor, immediately. So they've all been acting, as of Kaldheim.

I do agree it's all a little fast, yeah. I also figured it was because "wow Rona sure knew how to find me immediately" myself. Also last we saw of Traxos he was just relaxing, possibly moving but most likely not. I don't recall the exact lore they gave for ye olde Scourge of Kroog- but Rona's put him back together with meat!

Also we likely will have more stories. They've said officially stories will continue till release on the 18th, so we've got a main story for tomorrow, the next day, AND maybe the 18th.

I do think it's meant to be that Ulf found something hidden due to natural talents no one else had. Given it's likely the teacher who gave him that eye test (which is a potentially fun tell, actually) was allied with Jared. Tying it more to "Dihada is taking advantage of working with Phyrexia" is neat, but since I know nothing about Carthalion or Corondor it means nothing to me.

I don't think either Oko or Dihada is responsible for the Ozolith stuff. Dihada is too cackling evil villain, and Oko is too "high school anarchist" to be even remotely intelligent enough to be that voice.

----------


## Personification

> Well, I can answer some of this. They infiltrated Tolaria at Lat-Nam and New Argive during the months Karn was under the rocks in Koilos. There's also an implication they've been doing this for awhile before even then, like after the first experiment with the Planar Bridge Elesh Norn sent out EVERY Praetor, immediately. So they've all been acting, as of Kaldheim.
> 
> I do agree it's all a little fast, yeah. I also figured it was because "wow Rona sure knew how to find me immediately" myself. Also last we saw of Traxos he was just relaxing, possibly moving but most likely not. I don't recall the exact lore they gave for ye olde Scourge of Kroog- but Rona's put him back together with meat!
> 
> Also we likely will have more stories. They've said officially stories will continue till release on the 18th, so we've got a main story for tomorrow, the next day, AND maybe the 18th.
> 
> I do think it's meant to be that Ulf found something hidden due to natural talents no one else had. Given it's likely the teacher who gave him that eye test (which is a potentially fun tell, actually) was allied with Jared. Tying it more to "Dihada is taking advantage of working with Phyrexia" is neat, but since I know nothing about Carthalion or Corondor it means nothing to me.
> 
> I don't think either Oko or Dihada is responsible for the Ozolith stuff. Dihada is too cackling evil villain, and Oko is too "high school anarchist" to be even remotely intelligent enough to be that voice.


You were totally right about the eyes (which I kind of like in the better-explained context of this story) but I think that, unless they publish something else later, they are counting staggering the side stories and main stories as a story a day, and are still only on the 5-chapter novel summary plan. I'll talk more about this later when I have more time, but I'll leave it at I think this would have been a better place to put the initial Ertai reveal and the eye reveal. If the order of this and the Jared one had been flipped it would have felt smoother. That said, I really liked this, and I liked how they wrote the goblins. Detailed comments and nitpicks to come later.

----------


## LaZodiac

> You were totally right about the eyes (which I kind of like in the better-explained context of this story) but I think that, unless they publish something else later, they are counting staggering the side stories and main stories as a story a day, and are still only on the 5-chapter novel summary plan. I'll talk more about this later when I have more time, but I'll leave it at I think this would have been a better place to put the initial Ertai reveal and the eye reveal. If the order of this and the Jared one had been flipped it would have felt smoother. That said, I really liked this, and I liked how they wrote the goblins. Detailed comments and nitpicks to come later.


Agreed on all counts.

Anyway, we've got two things to talk about today though! Because we also got the Building Words video!

*Spoiler: DomU Side Story 3: Squee Best Goblin*
Show

Squee, god-king of the goblins, lord of death! He who dies, but doesn't! A wonderful, horrifying little story that would, as Personification says, make a better reveal for Ertai Resurrected, but it's whatever. We get some really fascinating philosophy about goblins in this, the opening paragraph or two about what death means to the cultures of Dominaria is genuinely fascinating and has given me character ideas that I'll never get to use since I'm a forever DM. Ah, nevertheless; the story.

No goblin has died for a week (immediate red flag from me I knew what'd happen next from this), so it's time for a celebratory feast... except someone just got squished by a rock. Specifically a rock security system that is intended to seal the warren. Seems sus to me- and correctly so, the squished gobbo was alive... ish. He's Phyrexian, and Squee knows what that means. He has a really good plan to flush'em out though, when he actually learns how to tell who is a Sleeper Agent (something even Karn hasn't worked out)... unfortunately the person he needs to get this plan done is compleated.

As is every other goblin but his disciple, who he sent off to warn others. Ertai is responsible, trying to obtain Squee's Toy, the Salvation Sphere; said to be older than the Plane itself, much like the SYlex interestingly enough. More interesting, Ertai doesn't just torture Squee endlessly. Sheoldred gave him a job and her whispers demand it. Squee is compleated... but due to his nature of a soul and body divided from each other, tricks himself into blowing the entire mountain up, saving the sphere and killing him off.

Within the realm of the dead once more, Squee meets with... Salvation. A primal, living force from Before. What this means and the sheer majesty of it is lost on Squee, who is smarter than a regular goblin- but still a goblin. She gives him a choice- die for real, or return to his immortal life. Squee, being smarter than a regular goblin, takes a third option. Go back to life, but the next time he dies is it; let him have a chance at a good, satisfying death. Salvation is like "weird flex but okay" because she likes the little guy, and sends him on his way. Squee meets up with his disciple, toy in hand, and head off to save the world.

Probably.


*Spoiler: DomU Building Worlds Video, special guest star spoiling a plot point that may just tell the whole twist.*
Show

And the world building stream video! There isn't much TO say, all of the stuff we learn plot wise (save for one massive big one) is stuff we already knew; Sheoldred has been here for months and is infiltrating every nook and cranny of the plane. She's got a new body (Sheoldred, The Apocalypse, a gigantic ****ing thresher maw like lower torso) and agents everywhere. It's brutal and horrifying, and the art is EXCEPTIONAL. Love every Phyrexian body horror monstrosity, from the skulls shuffing off to reveal a metallic skull to the hands breaking apart and utilizing Banelish shields as flesh to make gigantic grabby claws. It's beautiful.

Likewise beautiful; Sagas are back! Saga's continue to have some of the single best pieces of art in the game. And continue to make artists go ham; one of the saga's is a real wood burned carving, depicting the Elder Dragon War! We also get this ****ing, outstanding finger paint horror show that is Braid's Frightful Return, and a genuinely loving look at a tapestry depicting Urza Assembling The Nine Titans- very useful for me for DND reasons, funnily enough.

But they let loose one thing. Slipped it in, without thinking.

The Weatherlight gets compleated. Makes "the Weatherlight, dressed in Phyrexian slag to appear stealthy" take a new meaning...

Between this, Ajani's minor oddities, the spy, and the video ending with what feels like a somber memoriam to these characters, reflecting on their sad pasts...

I think we lose.

Dominaria is United... but not the way we think.

----------


## Personification

> Agreed on all counts.
> 
> Anyway, we've got two things to talk about today though! Because we also got the Building Words video!
> 
> *Spoiler: DomU Side Story 3: Squee Best Goblin*
> Show
> 
> Squee, god-king of the goblins, lord of death! He who dies, but doesn't! A wonderful, horrifying little story that would, as Personification says, make a better reveal for Ertai Resurrected, but it's whatever. We get some really fascinating philosophy about goblins in this, the opening paragraph or two about what death means to the cultures of Dominaria is genuinely fascinating and has given me character ideas that I'll never get to use since I'm a forever DM. Ah, nevertheless; the story.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that pretty much sums it up with the one exception that, while I did really love the story, it had the same problem as the others where literally EVERY NPC was a mimic Phyrexian. This makes especially little sense because it is strongly implied that Squee is pretty hands-on and his kingdom is super isolated. When did they have the time to do this, and if they had done it why wait until cover was blown? Literally all it would have taken would be saying that a quarter were Phyrexians, and the rest were too surprised and/or incompetent to do anything before it was too late. Even that would have been a stretch but at least a doable one. 

Unrelated to all of that, (and I agree about being annoyed about the reveal) I learned a few things from the video that I found interesting, including the answer to the age old question of "why does Karn only and always wear pants on Dominaria?" (It's to remember Urza, noted lover of pants and hater of all that is good in the world). I also had a TIL on the statue of young Teferi with the globe in opt having a chunk of the globe (presumably where Zhalfir was) violently torn out, which you can only really see on the super blown up version but is awesome.

Also, maybe it's just me, but I feel like most of the Phyrexians we got art from (including Sheoldred herself) had more of a "Machine Orthodoxy" aesthetic than a "Steel Thanes" aesthetic (machine orthodoxy has lots of porcelain and cleaner lines), which I could be annoyed about because "wrong praetor" or think is a cool nod to the fact that Norn is now in charge of everyone and I have chosen the latter. 

Also, They tagged the Raven Man art as "The Raven Man-Dominaria United" which is interesting because A) it probably means he is finally getting a (non-Lim-Dûl or Mairsil, called the Pretender) card and B) it implies that they are going to give that card art that they have had since at least 2015 (the image they showed was also used in Liliana's ORI story).

----------


## LaZodiac

> Yeah, that pretty much sums it up with the one exception that, while I did really love the story, it had the same problem as the others where literally EVERY NPC was a mimic Phyrexian. This makes especially little sense because it is strongly implied that Squee is pretty hands-on and his kingdom is super isolated. When did they have the time to do this, and if they had done it why wait until cover was blown? Literally all it would have taken would be saying that a quarter were Phyrexians, and the rest were too surprised and/or incompetent to do anything before it was too late. Even that would have been a stretch but at least a doable one. 
> 
> Unrelated to all of that, (and I agree about being annoyed about the reveal) I learned a few things from the video that I found interesting, including the answer to the age old question of "why does Karn only and always wear pants on Dominaria?" (It's to remember Urza, noted lover of pants and hater of all that is good in the world). I also had a TIL on the statue of young Teferi with the globe in opt having a chunk of the globe (presumably where Zhalfir was) violently torn out, which you can only really see on the super blown up version but is awesome.
> 
> Also, maybe it's just me, but I feel like most of the Phyrexians we got art from (including Sheoldred herself) had more of a "Machine Orthodoxy" aesthetic than a "Steel Thanes" aesthetic (machine orthodoxy has lots of porcelain and cleaner lines), which I could be annoyed about because "wrong praetor" or think is a cool nod to the fact that Norn is now in charge of everyone and I have chosen the latter. 
> 
> Also, They tagged the Raven Man art as "The Raven Man-Dominaria United" which is interesting because A) it probably means he is finally getting a (non-Lim-Dûl or Mairsil, called the Pretender) card and B) it implies that they are going to give that card art that they have had since at least 2015 (the image they showed was also used in Liliana's ORI story).


A though I had rereading the story; we know after Squee's compleation he looks out on his people and only some of them are machines- the minority even. So maybe when he got knocked out he was just, squirrelled away in the dark by the compleated one. So not EVERY gobbo was eaten, just enough to cause severe problems.

I did know about Karn's pant situation (which is hilarious given in his first story he notes he really just, detests clothing as a thing) but I also didn't know about the Zhalfir chunk missing from that statue art it's so ****ing outstanding!

Given the last we had heard of Sheoldred was that Elesh Norn beat her ass, I think it is firmly the case that the Machine Orthodoxy have "won" for lack of a better term. And I imagine we'll see more of the aesthetics of the others so far- but Norn's disciples work best for sleeper agents, I imagine.

Raven Man finally getting a card and it being this ancient ass card art is hilarious and I'm all here for it.

----------


## Personification

> A though I had rereading the story; we know after Squee's compleation he looks out on his people and only some of them are machines- the minority even. So maybe when he got knocked out he was just, squirrelled away in the dark by the compleated one. So not EVERY gobbo was eaten, just enough to cause severe problems.
> 
> I did know about Karn's pant situation (which is hilarious given in his first story he notes he really just, detests clothing as a thing) but I also didn't know about the Zhalfir chunk missing from that statue art it's so ****ing outstanding!
> 
> Given the last we had heard of Sheoldred was that Elesh Norn beat her ass, I think it is firmly the case that the Machine Orthodoxy have "won" for lack of a better term. And I imagine we'll see more of the aesthetics of the others so far- but Norn's disciples work best for sleeper agents, I imagine.
> 
> Raven Man finally getting a card and it being this ancient ass card art is hilarious and I'm all here for it.


I knew about the Karn pants thing before (thanks to Incorrect MTG Quotes) but I didn't know why. Was the reason canon before?

----------


## LaZodiac

> I knew about the Karn pants thing before (thanks to Incorrect MTG Quotes) but I didn't know why. Was the reason canon before?


Yup! Karn typically prefers to not wear clothing, but if he is going to wear clothing it'll be when company is about, and something to at least... mostly honour his father. There is not a lot of good in Urza but despite all that he still has some small affection for dear ol' dad.

----------


## Avaris

> *Spoiler: I didn't hate it, I just wish I could have read the novel it was a summary of (which would probably have answers to my questions)*
> Show
> 
> 
> Yeah, both of these stories felt very... summary... to me, especially the main one (something I'm considering referring to as "act 4/5 in the new paradigm" disease). There were elements of this in the earlier chapters, but it definitely feels like it went from "sneaking corruption and an undercover infiltration by Sheoldred's faction in order to get old Phyrexian tech from Dominaria and maybe lay the groundwork for a true invasion" to "there are Phyrexians EVERYWHERE and the sky is falling aaaaaah!!!!" in about five minutes. If they had the strength and inclination to do a full invasion, why only bring Sheoldred's faction and why wait until your cover was blown to attack. They knew Karn had found them and would eventually blow their cover for months, and by waiting until he caught their bird at the peace talks to strike they lost a lot of their advantage. It's implied that they are just here for Karn, the Sylex, and some other stuff and laying the groundwork for an invasion later, but if that's the case how did they take over all of Argive and Tolaria Lat-Nam (home of the Fighting Volvers (not canon)) with nobody noticing?  Why and how is Rona in Yavimaya riding (probably) Traxos? Wasn't he already rampaging when we last saw him in DOM?
> 
> My issue wasn't that it was all happening, but that it felt so rushed that I had no time to develop a sense of scale. Are we watching The Thing or War of the Worlds? Similarly, the rushedness led to both an inability to process new information and a very repetative series of false-stakes will-they-or-won't-theys from potential allies. The dragons and most of the other Shivans are still considering it but no they aren't because the Weatherlight, which is covered in decay to hide from the Phyrexians (where? how? why?) is coming chased by not-Skytherix (and thereby we learn that Karn and Teferi are on the ground) and it is immediately saved by Darigaaz. Problem solved! The elves won't help because elves! Except they will because Rona (clearly working on team new coalition here) comes in to make Jodah's point for him and convince them to join. Ajani and Jaya have to give themselves up but no they don't because Radha and her crew fly in on the "Heart of Gold" "Serenity" "Helicarrier From Age Of Ultron" "Unprophesied Second Coming of the Deus Ex-Machina" "Golden Argosy", to save the day. But we have dire news as Jodah has determined that, despite voting Stenn out at the last emergency meeting There is still one imposter among us. How does he know? I read it as being implied by Rona knowing where he was, but we may never be certain. Anyway, no time to think about it, we have an entire block from the nineties to juice into pure nostalgia and only one more chapter to do it!
> 
> The second story is similarly disjointed for me. Your analyses of it honestly hit most of my issues with it really well, but I want to reiterate both how little sense the degree of Phyrexian interference, how much people know about it, and its relationship to Dihada and Jared makes. At one point a professor gives Ulf (who really should just switch his major to AG, which according to this means working with horses (it doesn't)) an eye exam to determine he isn't a sleeper agent. Also, as I said before, half of the school is actually a doombot phyrexian because reasons. There is literally nothing connecting the weird Corondor stuff to Phyrexia other than them predating Y2K, and it makes no sense to tie these together. Also, why is there some sort of conspiracy to hide information about Corondor, and is the implication supposed to be that Ulf has library super-magic or that nobody else in a giant school knows how to read an index? This isn't helped by the fact that, as you mentioned, Jared is (according to my quick perusal of his wiki) the most aggressively generic 90's fantasy protagonist that I have ever seen from the Tragic Backstory (tm) to the lost kingdom ruled by a cursed troll to the magic sword to the magical birthmark that makes him the elder druid to the authors somehow thinking that it was a good idea to put him in an intimate relationship with a beautiful-but-actually-1000-years-old woman when he was 16 to the blue ribbon for Conan at the cosplay contest. Also, what has he been doing all of this time? 
> ...


I havent been following the story closely, but flicked through the final story and very much got the impression it was a little rushed to conclusion.

*Spoiler*
Show

Major story beats of Ajani is a Phyrexian Sleeper Agent and Jaya dies felt like they passed by in a paragraph or two!

----------


## enderlord99

I just had a game where I was "on curve" for around 12 turns.  The presence of ramp meant that I spent a lot more than 12 mana on the last one, obviously.

----------


## LaZodiac

Finally, after one thousand years I'm free to conquer earth write the rest of the story summaries and Wizards Presents info.

*Spoiler: DomU Side Story 4: Did Braids join the crew at the end or what?*
Show

Shanna and the Weatherlight! They're doing their do, Weatherlight dressed up in Phyrexian garbage to let them stealth mode around... but not enough to fail to antagonize a bone dragon. They take it out, but they get grounded as well. Raff can sense a magical source they can use to repair the ship, so he, Shanna, and Tiana go to find it... and find Braids instead. Braids is a delightful little gremlin of madness who is quite enjoyable to read, and she offers to help them out so long as they help her kill her. Turns out she can seperate chunks of herself to make more of herself, and the latest herself to be knocked off decided it didn't WANT to stop being herself and instead be her own herself. Naturally.

With no real idea who the hell Braids is because she wasn't like, a high ranking Cabal agent and thus is probably forgotten by history, everyone's chill and decides to help her out as long as she promises not to kill them. She does, they go to where the other Braids is relaxing, walk through a fun fun nightmare corridor, then fight and kill her- Braids specifically coming in at the end to devour the fragment of herself. They take the machine parts and return to the Weatherlight.

Only, unfortunately, to find it blowing up some extras. The phyrexian garbage was not quite so dead as they thought, and has compleated the poor boat. Tiana is hyper depressed because this is the second vitally important artifact she was assigned to protect, and the one that her soul was made for, so she uh... she's having a bad time. But all the named characters and at least some of the red shirts survive, and the Weatherlight flies off to join the war effort... on the other side.

I did like this story, but this is one of those ones that felt the most like "we should have gotten more".


*Spoiler: DomU Side Story 5: Cat baby cat baby cat baby!*
Show

Then we have a story about Niambi, Teferi's daughter, with some deep cut references to characters I don't particularly care about but know get treated really really well and cool here. It's a simple story, Niambi using her status as a healer and a speaker of dreams (someone who interprets dreams) to save a tribe of leonin from being lost to the wastes. A baby is delivered, so real politik is had, Niambi is boss as hell, there's absolutely no metaphors about refugees in this story that would be relevant to our modern day at all nope not at all not even a bit oops look at all this very direct parallels I'm dropping nevermind those that's, it's just a story it's not related at all to real life.

Anyway the story was good, and a lovely shining spot of hope given no one was evil and ostensibly no one dies (the Phyrexian machine will kill hundreds but they'll likely stop it before many are killed. It's fine!)


And finally...

*Spoiler: DomU 5: Elesh Norn Grabbing The Infinity Gauntlet Moment*
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The finale. Jhoira is setting the Mana Rig up to blow as others set up the canon, just in case. The war effort is going... not great. A Phyrexian Sleeper was found in the food so no dinner tonight. There's a grand picture of the pressure this sort of war causes, a snapshot of it, as Karn wonders just how they'll manage things, and when the others will arrive to help. Then the Phyrexians begin to swarm, an army- and a Dreadnought. And, in the distance, Sheoldred in a dragon engine... and the Weatherlight, speeding in fast. Ertai is aboard, and he leaps down to say hi to ol' Shovelhead. He and Karn fight, and Ertai basically rips Karn to pieces, leaving him a broken mess. Good thing he's a robot... and good thing Ajani is here to save the day! Ajani swoops in with Jaya and Jodah and the elves and the Benalish and the Keld and Ajani yeets Eretai off the Mana Rig and defends Karn as the fighting continues to rampage on.

But, slowly but surely, the tide is shifting. Karn tells Jaya to get the Sylex and leave. She gets the Sylex, but... due to the precautions Karn made, the box is too heavy for her to take with her. She's like 170 years old, that's warranted. So Karn opens the box so she can retrieve the Sylex and just leave with it; it isn't ideal, but it's better than nothing.

Then it happens. And the way it's described you can see the genuine, hellish torture of it. Ajani starts to shift, and he can feel it. He mouths wordlessly no, no, no as the unfortunate reality (that I called, sadly) asserts itself. Our loveable cat dad has been compleated. He drives his axe into the retreating Jaya, and everyone is stunned- too stunned to move. Jaya tries one last violent flash of flame to take him out with her... but it's not enough. He throws grandma off the Mana Rig, to her death. Ajani crushes the Sylex and picks up Karn, Sheoldred stopping by to taunt them about how this victory is ours, and that with the Mana Rig they will create an unstoppable tide.

Jhoira appears to flip off the Phyrexian's, all the named characters (save Karn, Ajani, and Jaya) escape via portal or Golden Argosy, and Sheoldred signals Tezzy to get them back home. The Mana Rig explodes, wiping out the Phyrexian forces in the area (rip Ertai probably), and the invasion ceases, likely receding back into the shadows now that the Praetor isn't leading things.

Things are not good for our heroes. Despondent and destroyed, Jodah and Teferi go to find Jaya's body, the former begging, pleading that she may yet live. She's made of sterner stuff, she can't... but, she can. They make a memorial to her, though yet unfinished till Karn returns. Teferi makes his decision; they may not have the Sylex anymore, but they have that document on stone Karn found. It describes the effects of the Sylex and generally how it functions- but in a purely mechanical sense. A blueprint of sorts. So he taps Saheeli Rei to make that for him as he goes to Urza's tower, with a device seemingly based on the Sun from Ixalan given how it is boosting his powers (also made by Saheeli) and does the unthinkinable.

It's time for a time heist.

And, of course, back on New Phyrexia, Elesh Norn greets her father, radiant and resplendent. She takes his damaged lump of a body to a sandy plain, where she shows him the future; a fledgling world tree, from which all of Phyrexia will reach out and grab hold of the multiverse.

All will be One.


Overall I'd say the stories are very good! The same complaints about feeling rushed or needing more air to breath continues to be true, but no one doubts that and the stories are still good that aside- and these ones I feel managed to handle it well, in my opinion. The drama hit where it needed to, and the implications for the future are going to be brutal. And also as just a warning; all my favorite characters have died or been compleated since this arc began, so if I like someone you like prepare your eulogy now.

------

Of course that's not all. What's coming up next for the year? Well, Wizard's Presents (and me, your lovely reporter) have got you covered.

*Spoiler: Untap, upkeep, draw, island, Future Sight, pass.*
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Next set up is The Brother War. Primarily a retelling of the past story, from the observer perspective of Teferi who is learning how to use the Sylex so that he can actually make use of the damn thing Saheeli creates. And that's it, no other time ****ery is going to be involved that we know of. I swear.

After that we get PHYREXIA: ALL WILL BE ONE, finally returning to everyone's favorite mechanical body horror hellscape so we can watch... well, we don't know. Presumably Teferi and the gang will try and stop Elesh Norn from finishing her little gardening project, and we know they'll fail, but perhaps they'll succeed in some way (like say, reconnecting with Melira and inoculating all my favorite characters so they only have to worry about dying and not compleating? Please?). I'm curious what'll happen... but since we know the next two sets, we know what happens.

MARCH OF THE MACHINE! Elesh Norn's compleated world tree baby branches out into the multiverse and succeeds at the task one of my players in my MTG DND campaign does because they consistently keep making **** I'm writing for said campaign become canon! The multiverse is linked, planebound can travel to other planes. It's like Kaldheim writ large, which is honestly rather clever- presumably the hope of Elesh Norn is to outright Domskar the entire multiverse together. Our heroes fight, tooth and nail and flame and fin, to stop the beautiful menace that is Elesh Norn.

Which brings us to MARCH OF THE MACHINE: AFTERMATH. Which. I mean they do, succeed, but the How is left unknown... and to quote the video, the rules of the multiverse have fundementally changed in the aftermath. We pick up the pieces and recover, and look at how the world will be when a planeswalker's spark is not the most unique thing about them. What will things look like, when anyone can just go as they please? How will cultures clash? I wonder...

After that, it's time for... the Wilds of Eldraine! We're back to celtic fairy tale land, with an emphasis on the fairy tale wilds. We got a card for Morgan la Fey. Hopefully with 100% less Oko.

And after that; The Lost Caverns of Ixalan! Time for an adventuresome party on the plane of Ixalan. Woo.


Lots of stuff to look forward too. Excited to see how it all plays out. Have spoiled the above on the off chance no one wants to read all of it/wants to go into the sets with zero foreknowledge, but good luck with that.

Also Doctor Who is getting a commander deck series. Neat.

----------


## enderlord99

I've figured for a while that that there was going to be a card with the typeline "Legendary Planeswalker - Norn" but, after giving it some thought, I have an even more specific prediction to make:

*Spoiler: That card's ult (not including loyalty cost)*
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> You get an emblem with "creatures you control get +1/+1" and "creatures your opponents control get -1/-1"




It's either that or exactly double that.  Calling it now.  Screenshot this.

----------


## Spore

Very excited for new Ajani from a story perspective! 

*Spoiler*
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Nobody tell them!

----------


## enderlord99

I just noticed that Karn's Sylex effectively gives Terror of the Peaks hexproof.

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## Dienekes

I know this is probably old news to everyone. But cracked some packs for the new set and I got freaking Astor. They finally made a card for my guy! Hell yeah, he was protagonist of the first MTG book I ever got. 

Great blast from the past. 

Now I just got to find a deck for him. Pity my fighter equipment deck has basically all the cards in it rotating out.

----------


## Personification

> I know this is probably old news to everyone. But cracked some packs for the new set and I got freaking Astor. They finally made a card for my guy! Hell yeah, he was protagonist of the first MTG book I ever got. 
> 
> Great blast from the past. 
> 
> Now I just got to find a deck for him. Pity my fighter equipment deck has basically all the cards in it rotating out.


Ah, another Vorthos I see. I admit, I didn't know the character before now, but everyone having their random favorite cardless character that they have been waiting forever to get a card is one of coolest parts of the game.

According to the blurb they put out for him yesterday, since the last invasion (i.e. Invasion) he has been in suspended animation inside of the Golden Argosy, waiting King Arthur style for England'sKeld's hour of need. He never actually appears onscreen because they had an entire planetary invasion to foreshadow, start, finish, reminisce on, and rebuild from (plus some commander decks to introduce) and only 10 blog posts to do it, but the blurb assures us that he did lots of cool stuff and had interesting interactions with Radha offscreen, where they can't be billed by the creative team.

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## LaZodiac

> Ah, another Vorthos I see. I admit, I didn't know the character before now, but everyone having their random favorite cardless character that they have been waiting forever to get a card is one of coolest parts of the game.
> 
> According to the blurb they put out for him yesterday, since the last invasion (i.e. Invasion) he has been in suspended animation inside of the Golden Argosy, waiting King Arthur style for England'sKeld's hour of need. He never actually appears onscreen because they had an entire planetary invasion to foreshadow, start, finish, reminisce on, and rebuild from (plus some commander decks to introduce) and only 10 blog posts to do it, but the blurb assures us that he did lots of cool stuff and had interesting interactions with Radha offscreen, where they can't be billed by the creative team.


Snark aside it is pretty rad.

Some other highlights; Braids was freed from the Nightmare Dimension by cultists exploding their heads horribly graphically! Moira is a chill ghost lady who teaches people how to be dead. Najal rolled five consecutive natural twenties and ended up charging up with enough electricity right as she hit an old planar boundry and ended up running from Rabiah to Dominaria! Tori is paraplegic and has a specially trained warhorse with a specially made saddle so she can still ride around kicking the **** out of things!

All in all, pretty cool!

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## enderlord99

Happy Yargle Day

EDIT: Just attacked with a 47/47 with trample and deathtouch, bringing my opponent down from 6 life to 2.  They didn't have 43 blockers, but they did have a decent number of blockers with Lifelink.

----------


## samduke

Dominaria united on deck looks interesting

I am looking for some singles, sanguine & exquisite bond, timeless lotus

Pm me with your discord , for discussion

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## enderlord99

Why did both Science Mom and Cat Dad have to become evil robots?  :Small Frown:

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## LaZodiac

> Why did both Science Mom and Cat Dad have to become evil robots?


Because they're my favorite characters and my favorite characters either turn out to be ruthless villains or extreme suffering hours. Sometimes both.

As a serious answer: Tamiyo and Ajani are both the most shocking, impactful thing. Tamiyo is a tertiary character who is quite popular but hasn't really gotten much screen time, so her being the first to fall (technically) is seriously impactful. Ajani as the follow up is a nail-in-the-coffin that makes it clear that no one is safe. It's not just tertiary fan favorites but people who are obstensibly main characters- hell, Ajani's a major protagonist of the first real Mending era Planeswalker story, Alara! He's a big deal that makes it clear that Anyone could be hit.

All of this of course is in addition to the fact that we know, canonically, that Tibalt's got Vorinclex's seed in him. He's gonna get compleated eventually, it's just a matter of when, not if. But that was a minor thing, easily unnoticed even in the ramp up of Phyrexian aggression. It doesn't lessen the impact because he's a nasty lad fail-son villain, we didn't expect him not to get got.

(fun fact Tibalt is also one of my favorite characters, but his Extreme Suffering Hours is hilarious, so it's positive actually)

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## Emmerlaus

I would have prefered that Sorin was the one compleated. He is supposed to be an heroic character after all and the compleated version could look really nightmarish, like a Nosferatu vampire.

For Tibalt, I dont care if he becomes compleated. Personnaly, Im actually looking foward to it. 

If we went with the "nobody is safe trope", I would have picked Jace. Troll us into thinking he is compleated, only for him to have transfered his mind into a clone and looking to restaure himself in a later set.  :Small Tongue: 

If its cheating it out too much, compleated Ral would have being fun. Make him boyfriend devastated from it.

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## LaZodiac

> I would have prefered that Sorin was the one compleated. He is supposed to be an heroic character after all and the compleated version could look really nightmarish, like a Nosferatu vampire.
> 
> For Tibalt, I dont care if he becomes compleated. Personnaly, Im actually looking foward to it. 
> 
> If we went with the "nobody is safe trope", I would have picked Jace. Troll us into thinking he is compleated, only for him to have transfered his mind into a clone and looking to restaure himself in a later set. 
> 
> If its cheating it out too much, compleated Ral would have being fun. Make him boyfriend devastated from it.


"Sorin is a hero" is honestly a tough sell nowadays, though Vampire Wedding did a good job of it. I'd just be sad if he got compleated now, dude lost his grampy. Though it would be funny to have him be like, friendship ended with Edgar now Yawgmoth is my new grampa.

I care about Tibalt getting compleated only so far as "Tibalt is a perfect little guy to beat up" character wise. He's just a guy! He kidnapped Chandra's mom and tied her to a chair and, without freeing herself from said chair or ropes, she beat him in a fist fight. He's a Loser and it's hilarious, and it'll be sad to see him go.

Jace getting compleated and shunting his mind into a clone would be... weird. He can do it, sorta, we saw that in Agents of Artifice, but I think it'd need to be a PERSON, not a clone. No sentience to like, replace with his own. It would still also effectively kill him since Jace wouldn't be Jace, the Planeswalker, but A Guy Named Jace. Also, there's always going to be this lingering "Jace is an ******* and The Protagonist of Magic" stank on him that'll make him getting compleated not hit right. Ajani meanwhile has no such negativity attached, so it's a sharper cut.

Ral being compleated would, in the face of people's anger with how War of the Spark Aftermath ended, basically just kill some people from brain aneurysm.

----------


## The Hellbug

They could always drag my boy Garruk through the dirt some more.  It's about that time in the cycle again.   :Small Tongue: 

More seriously, the 'going after characters who people liked but weren't the super most important characters' is a tried and true method in these sorts of things.  I just wish they'd pick on the humans more.  We've got all these cool fantasy peoples and yet the planeswalkers feel like they're all humans plus one of each other kind of person so it's kind of annoying they've started with them.

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## LaZodiac

> They could always drag my boy Garruk through the dirt some more.  It's about that time in the cycle again.


Garruk's doing well as the twin's weird uncle (and, in the MTG comics, dressed to the ****ing NINES as a speak-easy bouncer, suspenders and rolled up sleeves and all, beating up Tibalt with a baseball bat. Hand to god this is happening and it kicks ass) so it's unlikely anything negative will happen to the guy. Elspeth is the primary pivot point of the Phyrexian arc, so Ajani getting got is important for her as well- Garruk being compleated wouldn't accomplish anything.

EDIT: I do feel you on the "please more non-standard humans" comment by the way. I do hope we lose some humans and add in some not-humans, but WOTC higher ups (ie, shareholders and supreme bosses, not people like Maro) have always been Weird Dumb Idiots about this.

----------


## Personification

Sorin's just too much of a paranoid loner to get Compleated, and while, relative to some of the memes, Innistrad isn't quite as extra-planar-proof as people say, it is fairly well defended against Phyrexian incursion. The people don't trust anything or anyone, the werewolves and vampires are an actual physical threat to a sleeper agent, the ghosts are uncompleatable and actively an asset to the humans, and both the archangels/angels and Sorin are entirely capable of a "nuke them all from orbit" plan on a suspected Praetor, especially with Liesa back. Completing Sorin would have to happen off plane, and he doesn't get lured into dark alleys, he IS the thing in the dark alley. Honestly, a compleated Sorin would feel like a failure of the character. 

I honestly don't think Tibalt is going to get compleated, at least not by what Vorinclex did to him. I read that as at least something of a bluff. At the time, they hadn't cracked Sparks yet, so he'd lose his spark if it happened, and he has no machine parts, so the automatic process likely won't work. Plus, it would be way to "Oh no, Tibalt... anyway..."

I honestly don't see any major Black Planeswalker getting hit. Other than Tibalt, they are all way too paranoid/competent. Lili has her veil, the Raven Man, and a mostly satisfyingly completed character arc to protect her, Davriel is just THE MOST paranoid, and is on Innistrad, Nixilis has been playing the world domination game for too long to get outplayed by some upstart who thinks they're the new Yawgmoth, Ashiok is the other corner in the alignment triangle containing ELdrazi and Phyrexians already, Kaya has seen too many Noir movies to fall for this, Nissa has Forsaken-regret plot armor, Vraska's already surrounded by power-hungry half-dead things that want to kill her and take her throne, and she's been fine for a while, and Bolas is both on indefinite hiatus and has the same excuse as Nixilis except in his mind Yawgmoth was just a wannabe Bolas.

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## LaZodiac

> I honestly don't think Tibalt is going to get compleated, at least not by what Vorinclex did to him. I read that as at least something of a bluff. At the time, they hadn't cracked Sparks yet, so he'd lose his spark if it happened, and he has no machine parts, so the automatic process likely won't work. Plus, it would be way to "Oh no, Tibalt... anyway..."
> 
> I honestly don't see any major Black Planeswalker getting hit. Other than Tibalt, they are all way too paranoid/competent. Lili has her veil, the Raven Man, and a mostly satisfyingly completed character arc to protect her, Davriel is just THE MOST paranoid, and is on Innistrad, Nixilis has been playing the world domination game for too long to get outplayed by some upstart who thinks they're the new Yawgmoth, Ashiok is the other corner in the alignment triangle containing ELdrazi and Phyrexians already, Kaya has seen too many Noir movies to fall for this, Nissa has Forsaken-regret plot armor, Vraska's already surrounded by power-hungry half-dead things that want to kill her and take her throne, and she's been fine for a while, and Bolas is both on indefinite hiatus and has the same excuse as Nixilis except in his mind Yawgmoth was just a wannabe Bolas.


The way I see it, Tibalt is in pre-op. Vorinclex put the oil in him just to like, prep him for it. Eventually it'll sink in and draw him to New Phyrexia. What we know from his story is that the threat of it "blooming" in him was enough to make him do everything he did on Kaldheim, so they may just strong arm him.

Liliana doesn't have the veil anymore, and she's actively fighting to rip the Raven Man from her brain, but yeah this is true otherwise. Lili is safe as far as I'm concerned (only favorite of mine who is honestly). Dave would never get compleated, he'd nope out the instant he saw a hint of spook **** going on. It'd be funny if Ob got owned, but he's really busy with his New Capenna gang war.

I could see Ashiok getting got if only because Elspeth is pissed as **** about the nightmare meat garden they inflicted upon her- but that'd require finding the folk. Kaya would almost certainly just go ghost fully to avoid compleation, yeah.

I'mma disagree with you on Nissa. Given the prevelance of Chandra in the few arts we've seen for March of the Machine, it could be that they drag one final knife through our souls and make Chandra have to fight a compleated Nissa. Nissa could also theoretically be completed by Urabrask to be an allied Phyrexian and give us the most cursed Gruulfriends possible (and make Nissa a candidate for four, maybe even five colours). Nissa is also one of my favorites so, worth noting.

You're forgetting Angrath (another of my favorites ;_;) who also suffers from the chibi-walker curse (the secret lair that shows a bunch of chibified walkers... two for two of whom are compleated now). He'd probably explode everything to death before he ever let them compleat him though, so he's... hopefully safe???

That all being said; I can imagine we'll get one compleated walker for each colour pair, or half of the colour pairs. That seems a likely like, amount. If that makes sense.

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## IthilanorStPete

> I care about Tibalt getting compleated only so far as "Tibalt is a perfect little guy to beat up" character wise. He's just a guy! He kidnapped Chandra's mom and tied her to a chair and, without freeing herself from said chair or ropes, she beat him in a fist fight. He's a Loser and it's hilarious, and it'll be sad to see him go.


What story was this in? I need to read it _yesterday_, that sounds hilarious.

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## LaZodiac

> What story was this in? I need to read it _yesterday_, that sounds hilarious.


The most recent issue of the Boom! Studios MTG comic. I believe it's #18?

I've got a link of one of the pages here by the way.

ALSO, an important note: None of the Boom! Studios comics are canon... unless the main story is like "naw I like the vibe" and takes it for the main canon. Just a heads up to us starving Vorthosian folk.

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## Emmerlaus

Fine, I admit I dont know eenough about MTG lore to decide which planeswalker should have being compleated instead of Ajani...

I think Nahiri could have being fun? Make her compleated then make her rage war against innistrad or at least force Sorin out of Innistrad if he want to survive, forced to flee and become a stray dog or something? Im curious about your opinion about compleated Nahiri  :Small Smile: 

Also, I just readed Ral's lore and I dont see how people were frustrated over that ending? What part was frustrating?  :Small Confused:

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## LaZodiac

> Fine, I admit I dont know eenough about MTG lore to decide which planeswalker should have being compleated instead of Ajani...
> 
> I think Nahiri could have being fun? Make her compleated then make her rage war against innistrad or at least force Sorin out of Innistrad if he want to survive, forced to flee and become a stray dog or something? Im curious about your opinion about compleated Nahiri 
> 
> Also, I just readed Ral's lore and I dont see how people were frustrated over that ending? What part was frustrating?


Hey, not trying to beat you up here. We're just discussin' stuff, it's cool.

Due to the ties Nahiri has with Sorin that'd cause basically the exact same ****storm of weirdo fans exploding as well. Suffice to say the two are basically untouchable in any realm that specifically has both of them involved- and even then, it can be a risk. Also, she's changed focuses to helping Zendikar out- as far as she cares Innistrad's done with. She had her vengeance. That said, she'd be a fascinating choice!

People really disliked the War of the Spark Aftermath novel because it had some pretty clunky writing, broke up Chandra and Nissa as a potential thing, and showed the rocky waters of Jace and Vraska's relationship, both things that people in the fandom were really into. Ral and Tomik get some of that backlash- the entire side plot with Teysa trying to get him to flip sides that people who can't read think might work, and the fact that Ral Zarek, our first out and proud gay planeswalker... gets his face ****ing turbo beat by Tezzeret in a really graphic display. He ends the series hospitalized, with most of his hair gone, and with Tomik torn between work and home. People at the time felt this, plus the Chandra/Nissa stuff having clunky writing that diminished Chandra's attraction to women, made people think the book was trying to anti-gay the series up. Showing queer folk in excessively negative situations and what not.

Honestly kinda unhinged thinking, but understandable at the time. I cried and got super emotional when it was clear Chandra and Nissa weren't getting together, and I bitterly laughed at the stupid as **** "decidedly male" line, so I get why people were feeling that way.

----------


## Emmerlaus

Well to be fair, any popular planeswalker would have fans exploding with rage or cut deeply with sadness. Ajani was popular too!

I wonder if it would be interesting Tibalt figured out HOW to not be compleated and holds up this as ranson for other Planeswalker to get something that he wants. That could be a thing he do that fit his character lol!

Hummm... I wonder if there is something that could reverse a compleated transformation though. Something that affect only planeswalker because of their sparks or something.

I think personnaly, it would have being as devastating in a story for Jiang Yanggu to sense he was about to become compleated, transfer his spark to his dog Mowu who is devastated by the transformation. I dont know the lore of those two but yeah, that would have being some fascinating drama

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## LaZodiac

We don't really have much for Jiang Yanggu, sadly. He and the other chinese planeswalker are from a China inspired plane, and are themselves based on Chinese mythology... and we are not told anything about it. All we know is that his incredibly good pupper is a creature of stone, not a flesh and blood dog, thus his ability to come along the planes with him. He's more like a DND style statue animal item than a true animal companion.

They could pull the spark transfer thing though, that'd be neat- dog planeswalker! Alone and sad dog! How sad! Becomes friends with Karn since they share the same sorta story.

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## Emmerlaus

> We don't really have much for Jiang Yanggu, sadly. He and the other chinese planeswalker are from a China inspired plane, and are themselves based on Chinese mythology... and we are not told anything about it. All we know is that his incredibly good pupper is a creature of stone, not a flesh and blood dog, thus his ability to come along the planes with him. He's more like a DND style statue animal item than a true animal companion.
> 
> They could pull the spark transfer thing though, that'd be neat- dog planeswalker! Alone and sad dog! How sad! Becomes friends with Karn since they share the same sorta story.


... Mowu is a stone pupper?! OMG it woiuld be so easy to make a legendary Gargoyle Dog now!  :Small Tongue: 

Always wanted a legendary gargoyle creature to be honest LOL

But maybe Mowu wouldn't be that sad, he would gain the feeling Jiang Yangggu's spark is hidden within him and that he must guard "him" (the spark) at all cost. It would feel like a symbiosis. 

Beside, everyone seem to want China's money. Pushing this would be a selling point in some ways, especially if they can restaure Jiang Yanggu at some point lol

----------


## Personification

LaZodiac: Your points on Tibalt are fair. He's honestly up in the air for me but I also don't think most readers care about him either way. As for Ashiok, unless you are referencing something else or this is a typo, I think we interpreted "A Garden of Flesh" differently. I'm 99% sure that it was Elesh Norn's nightmare in which her beautiful perfect Flesh Garden gets ruined by one stupid human who is Too Angry to Die (again). Ashiok learned about the Phyrexians from Elspeth, and basically went over because them always wanted to know what nightmares have nightmares about (apparently, Elspeth is MTG's Doctor, which... tracks) and at this point Norn is aware of them, but I don't expect anything to be able to be done about it because Ashiok doesn't really get dealt with. They may be too nightmare to be compleated at this point (I bet the same is true for Braids, who is at this point just Ashiok who hasn't switched to decaf). I'll cede your point on Nissa, but I think it would be a tough line to walk, and they might not do it for fear of messing up. If Nissa gets compleated, I will take that as a sign that Chandra will fix her in a "we know you're in there somewhere" fight and GruulFriends will finally happen. If they don't I'm not confident it won't feel like the bury your gays trope. Anyway, Nissa is barely Black, and while I didn't state it the real thesis I was getting at is that the nature of Black mana alignment makes getting Compleated much less likely, because paranoia and self-reliance make it hard to get stuck in a place helping and get captured. In fact, the Phyrexians as a whole aren't super Black, which is why I really like that Elesh Norn won the Praetor War.

*Spoiler: What follows is basically the accidental first draft of an essay I've been meaning to write about Phyrexia nad MTG color theory*
Show

 The originals were Black because Yawgmoth was, but while it makes sense for a Black-aligned being to create Phyrexians, the color doesn't suit them as entities, and it actually hurts them. Original Phyrexia was like the Daleks, (the comparison, and comparing Davros to Yawgmoth, are actually eerily accurate) they followed the leader because he was the creator, demonstrably powerful, and hardcoded into their heads as a being worthy of worship, but other than that they hated literally everyone else who wasn't them, including each other, and they would stab each other in the back to advance their own goal, potentially to the detriment of Phyrexia as a whole. They had little to no interest in Phyrexianizing/Dalekizing other beings (though in both cases they had the capability) and only did so for tactical reasons out of necessity and/or to create spies, because although they saw themselves as perfect, they had little interest in sharing that perfection with imperfect beings that could just as easily be destroyed. Sure, Yawgmoth would have loved to see the universe compleated under him, but his servants were just as quick to destroy it, and each other, as to actively alter it. This is all very mono-Black, and it creates an antagonist that is a massive threat but still very liable to destroy itself through infighting. At the end of the day, Black isn't built to sustain a society, and Phyrexia was probably always doomed to eat itself. New Phyrexia, on the other hand, is much closer to the Cybermen or the Borg (and not just in aesthetic). They are proselytizing Phyrexians, and would love to share with you their Gifts. Elesh Norn is not an impersonal, selfish God like Yawgmoth, but a kind, merciful Mother of Machines, who only wants to make you Perfect. This is all very White philosophically, even though it is also very evil and a direct offshoot of Yawgmoth's teachings. Individually, a Cyberman is no match for a Dalek (I have no idea of the relative strengths of Old and New Phyrexians), but as a collective the Cybermen are arguably scarier, because they are a Grey Goo that talks. It is also important to note that, despite their differences, the two styles of villains appear very similar, but when balanced for individual strength the White one will always be better at the task of multiversal domination (Teamwork really does make the Dream-Garden-of-Flesh-That-Has-No-Mouth-But-Must-Scream-Work). Similarly, this also informs Urabrask being the Heretic Praetor, because Red, the color of not just personal freedom but general freedom, is basically incompatible with the ideals of Phyrexia, especially the White-Aligned New Phyrexia. White is the color of the hive mind, and is therefore the ideal color of Phyexia. Blue will strive for perfection, and so with a compleated mind will be totally devoted to, as Jin-Gitaxias puts it, the process of creating the perfect Phyrexia. Black, especially when twisted by the glistening oil, respects the hierarchy of Phyrexia, seeing the structure itself as important to it (and therefore worthy of defending) and its subservience to those above as a means of improving its place in that hierarchy. It will scheme and plot, sometimes to the detriment of the greater Phyrexia, to maintain and improve its place in that hierarchy (there's a reason they call her "The Whispering One"), but at the end of the day it does so in service to the system. Green is similar. The beastial side of Green (again, twisted in POV by the oil) will respect that it is lower on the food chain than other Phyrexians and that non-Phyrexians are at the bottom, and the spiritual side will see compleation as both its destiny and, eventually, the destiny of the multiverse. Red, though, cannot rationalize it all in any meaningful way. Phyrexia is perfection, and there is no mono-Red worldview that could ever see perfection in a multiverse devoid of choice, emotion, and diversity, even with the oil's influence. This is only heightened by the fact that Elesh Norn controls the wider society of New Phyrexia, as this incompatability is centered on the crux of Red's conflict with White. Xantcha was an old Phyrexian, but she was accidentally given free will and turned against Yawgmoth. Her card is RB because red is the color of free will.

TL;DR Phyrexia (especially NP) is more W than B in style, and R is philosophically incompatible with Phyrexia while all other colors can coexist with it at least somewhat.

Meanwhile, non-compleated mono-B creatures/planeswalkers are the most likely to nope out before it's too late, as they tend towards high rates of self-preservation and low rates of things they are willing to lose it all for.

Angrath (who I did totally forget) is actually a great exception, as he is a "my family counts as me for the purposes of selfishness" style B character (as is Liliana, but the reasons her compleation doesn't make sense both in and out of universe are a topic for another accidental essay) and his daughters give him both the incentive to join the New New Coalition (AKA the Gate Gatewatch Watch) and the kind of 5-minute tragic characterization that makes cop shows tell you who's retiring tomorrow.

Emmerlaus: LaZodiac basically explained it, but the issue isn't popularity, it is representation and (intentional or not) implication. WotC lost a lot of goodwill over WAR, and while they may be building it back up slowly, compleating Ral, the only canonically married gay 'Walker I'm aware of in addition to being super popular and fairly non-Phyrexian in philosophy, would do a lot to hurt that unless, and even if, it was executed with perfect tact (something hard to do when you get a tenth of a book for a trilogy length plot). To that point, I'm actually pretty upset about Ajani and Jaya, and on a meta-level. Tamiyo worked so well because it happened at the end of a (fairly) well-paced story, was properly set up, and was given the space on the page to breathe. Ajani, though somewhat foreshadowed, happened in the middle of a story that had no time to give anyone the space they needed, so we got a paragraph of "Oh no!" then suddenly he's gone, Jaya's dead, and nobody has time to grieve because  we are already seventeen point five time increments behind schedule. When Tamiyo died, there was a poignant tragedy in seeing into her head as her worldview was warped, so she could keep learning, spreading knowledge, and supporting her family, but the knowledge was of her new Phyrexian family. We didn't really get that seen with Ajani, even though it would have been similar, and it made the moment cheaper. Neither character resolution felt earned by the story, and I just felt betrayed. When Tamiyo got turned, I was sad because they hurt Tamiyo, and they hurt Nashi. When Ajani got turned, I was sad because they hurt the story and the Vorthos trust. Anger at a villain is not the same as anger at a writer.

On a lighter (or at least differently dark) note, this did lead to an interesting observation that the 'Walkers most like to get themselves captured, being W aligned as they go for the Greater Good, are also probably the easiest to assimilate to Phyrexia. Nahiri, ball of xenophobic rage that she is, might be the exception, though if the oil can turn her Kor supremacism into Phyrexian supremacism she could see use post-compleation as a not-very-tactical nuke (though LaZodiac's point on the unlikelihood of her being involved stands). Sorin, who is much more like his protegee than he would ever admit, is also an exception for reasons outlined in my initial post. That said, can you imagine Gideon if he were made to decide that his squad included every Phyrexian ever?

A final (I mean it this time) tangent: I forgot to mention a few B aligned walkers (other than Angrath) in my initiol list. Tezzeret is immune to the oil, but his life is always somewhat at risk as the Eternal Starscream. Dihada is only barely a character again, and I honestly think that her lack of mattering at all takes her out on a Doylist level, but she has also apparently cut a deal with them and has a history of making it out of deals OK. Jared Carthalion is in the same boat on the mattering scale, is only B by the barest technicality (so if he does get hit it doesn't count) and is too 90s to let himself get taken by a bunch of oily punks. Grist is bugs. Bugs no like oil, so Grist no like oil. If some bugs gets oily, Grist just not be those Bugs. Grist met flea-house man in buggy plane while searching for bugs to be more bugs in non-cannon work. If flea-house man oily now, Grist sad. When Grist sad, Grist be more bugs until Grist enough bugs to end sadness. Grist will come for oil people and end them, because all is bug food, and grist is bugs. Grist avenge flea-house man _and_ meeting-place of blinking moths, which is oily now. Oil lady say all be oil. Oil lady wrong. All will be Bug. All will be Grist.

(Today I learned that Grist appears in the Ajani Goldmane comics.)

----------


## LaZodiac

> LaZodiac: Your points on Tibalt are fair. He's honestly up in the air for me but I also don't think most readers care about him either way. As for Ashiok, unless you are referencing something else or this is a typo, I think we interpreted "A Garden of Flesh" differently. I'm 99% sure that it was Elesh Norn's nightmare in which her beautiful perfect Flesh Garden gets ruined by one stupid human who is Too Angry to Die (again). Ashiok learned about the Phyrexians from Elspeth, and basically went over because them always wanted to know what nightmares have nightmares about (apparently, Elspeth is MTG's Doctor, which... tracks) and at this point Norn is aware of them, but I don't expect anything to be able to be done about it because Ashiok doesn't really get dealt with. They may be too nightmare to be compleated at this point (I bet the same is true for Braids, who is at this point just Ashiok who hasn't switched to decaf). I'll cede your point on Nissa, but I think it would be a tough line to walk, and they might not do it for fear of messing up. If Nissa gets compleated, I will take that as a sign that Chandra will fix her in a "we know you're in there somewhere" fight and GruulFriends will finally happen. If they don't I'm not confident it won't feel like the bury your gays trope. Anyway, Nissa is barely Black, and while I didn't state it the real thesis I was getting at is that the nature of Black mana alignment makes getting Compleated much less likely, because paranoia and self-reliance make it hard to get stuck in a place helping and get captured. In fact, the Phyrexians as a whole aren't super Black, which is why I really like that Elesh Norn won the Praetor War.
> 
> *Spoiler: What follows is basically the accidental first draft of an essay I've been meaning to write about Phyrexia nad MTG color theory*
> Show
> 
>  The originals were Black because Yawgmoth was, but while it makes sense for a Black-aligned being to create Phyrexians, the color doesn't suit them as entities, and it actually hurts them. Original Phyrexia was like the Daleks, (the comparison, and comparing Davros to Yawgmoth, are actually eerily accurate) they followed the leader because he was the creator, demonstrably powerful, and hardcoded into their heads as a being worthy of worship, but other than that they hated literally everyone else who wasn't them, including each other, and they would stab each other in the back to advance their own goal, potentially to the detriment of Phyrexia as a whole. They had little to no interest in Phyrexianizing/Dalekizing other beings (though in both cases they had the capability) and only did so for tactical reasons out of necessity and/or to create spies, because although they saw themselves as perfect, they had little interest in sharing that perfection with imperfect beings that could just as easily be destroyed. Sure, Yawgmoth would have loved to see the universe compleated under him, but his servants were just as quick to destroy it, and each other, as to actively alter it. This is all very mono-Black, and it creates an antagonist that is a massive threat but still very liable to destroy itself through infighting. At the end of the day, Black isn't built to sustain a society, and Phyrexia was probably always doomed to eat itself. New Phyrexia, on the other hand, is much closer to the Cybermen or the Borg (and not just in aesthetic). They are proselytizing Phyrexians, and would love to share with you their Gifts. Elesh Norn is not an impersonal, selfish God like Yawgmoth, but a kind, merciful Mother of Machines, who only wants to make you Perfect. This is all very White philosophically, even though it is also very evil and a direct offshoot of Yawgmoth's teachings. Individually, a Cyberman is no match for a Dalek (I have no idea of the relative strengths of Old and New Phyrexians), but as a collective the Cybermen are arguably scarier, because they are a Grey Goo that talks. It is also important to note that, despite their differences, the two styles of villains appear very similar, but when balanced for individual strength the White one will always be better at the task of multiversal domination (Teamwork really does make the Dream-Garden-of-Flesh-That-Has-No-Mouth-But-Must-Scream-Work). Similarly, this also informs Urabrask being the Heretic Praetor, because Red, the color of not just personal freedom but general freedom, is basically incompatible with the ideals of Phyrexia, especially the White-Aligned New Phyrexia. White is the color of the hive mind, and is therefore the ideal color of Phyexia. Blue will strive for perfection, and so with a compleated mind will be totally devoted to, as Jin-Gitaxias puts it, the process of creating the perfect Phyrexia. Black, especially when twisted by the glistening oil, respects the hierarchy of Phyrexia, seeing the structure itself as important to it (and therefore worthy of defending) and its subservience to those above as a means of improving its place in that hierarchy. It will scheme and plot, sometimes to the detriment of the greater Phyrexia, to maintain and improve its place in that hierarchy (there's a reason they call her "The Whispering One"), but at the end of the day it does so in service to the system. Green is similar. The beastial side of Green (again, twisted in POV by the oil) will respect that it is lower on the food chain than other Phyrexians and that non-Phyrexians are at the bottom, and the spiritual side will see compleation as both its destiny and, eventually, the destiny of the multiverse. Red, though, cannot rationalize it all in any meaningful way. Phyrexia is perfection, and there is no mono-Red worldview that could ever see perfection in a multiverse devoid of choice, emotion, and diversity, even with the oil's influence. This is only heightened by the fact that Elesh Norn controls the wider society of New Phyrexia, as this incompatability is centered on the crux of Red's conflict with White. Xantcha was an old Phyrexian, but she was accidentally given free will and turned against Yawgmoth. Her card is RB because red is the color of free will.
> 
> TL;DR Phyrexia (especially NP) is more W than B in style, and R is philosophically incompatible with Phyrexia while all other colors can coexist with it at least somewhat.
> 
> ...


The implication I gathered from Garden of Flesh was that Ashiok caused Elesh Norn's nightmare, and while this has made her put Elspeth as a 200% priority target kill on sight immediately, I imagine it put Ashiok on her ****list too, is all.

Don't have much to say about your essay, beyond "it's 100% correct". Phyrexia brings out the worst in every colour, which makes Black mana folk the best at avoiding it... and makes white mana Phyrexian's better Phyrexians than the OGs by far. Just listen to Ajani's voice clips.

Gideon getting compleated would be ****ing horrifying, yeah. Let's not even think about what they'd do with "guy who can make people he loves and himself literally invincible".

Tezz is immune, yeah. Dihada IS WORKING with the Phyrexians, but as you said just Isn't A Character (will probably get comics honestly).

Holy **** Grist shows up in Seanan McGuise's Ajani comic? That owns.

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## Androgeus

Obviously the next to be compleated should be The Unluckiest Planeswalker.

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## Personification

> The implication I gathered from Garden of Flesh was that Ashiok caused Elesh Norn's nightmare, and while this has made her put Elspeth as a 200% priority target kill on sight immediately, I imagine it put Ashiok on her ****list too, is all.
> 
> Don't have much to say about your essay, beyond "it's 100% correct". Phyrexia brings out the worst in every colour, which makes Black mana folk the best at avoiding it... and makes white mana Phyrexian's better Phyrexians than the OGs by far. Just listen to Ajani's voice clips.
> 
> Gideon getting compleated would be ****ing horrifying, yeah. Let's not even think about what they'd do with "guy who can make people he loves and himself literally invincible".
> 
> Tezz is immune, yeah. Dihada IS WORKING with the Phyrexians, but as you said just Isn't A Character (will probably get comics honestly).
> 
> Holy **** Grist shows up in Seanan McGuise's Ajani comic? That owns.


I think we got confused by a typo where you said Elspeth instead of Elesh Norn in your original post. Also, Gideon notably CANNOT make his allies invincible except for exactly once with Liliana. That's his whole fatal flaw and character arc, he's the indestructible man with chronic hero syndrome, but he can't save everyone, so he's always the one who survives with the guilt (I just realized that this makes him a really good dark Superman expy).




> Obviously the next to be compleated should be The Unluckiest Planeswalker.


Nah, his whole schtick is that he just barely survives to keep having a miserable life. He is much more likely to get stuck in Phyrexia, tortured forever, but ultimately somehow immune to Phyresis.

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## LaZodiac

> I think we got confused by a typo where you said Elspeth instead of Elesh Norn in your original post. Also, Gideon notably CANNOT make his allies invincible except for exactly once with Liliana. That's his whole fatal flaw and character arc, he's the indestructible man with chronic hero syndrome, but he can't save everyone, so he's always the one who survives with the guilt (I just realized that this makes him a really good dark Superman expy).
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, his whole schtick is that he just barely survives to keep having a miserable life. He is much more likely to get stuck in Phyrexia, tortured forever, but ultimately somehow immune to Phyresis.


Ah, typo, my bad. Sorry!

Also... while that's all true, consider how Phyrexia would warp his mind. They'd show him the power of unity, of togetherness- about how his guilt can be assuaged through assisting the Great Work. For Gideon, sacrificing himself to save Liliana was the absolution he was seeking- throwing forward a good light for someone who needed it. How could the black oil twist this mentality? I think it would make him able to share it- not as strong of course, the conviction of his heart has been tainted, but still.

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## Personification

> Ah, typo, my bad. Sorry!
> 
> Also... while that's all true, consider how Phyrexia would warp his mind. They'd show him the power of unity, of togetherness- about how his guilt can be assuaged through assisting the Great Work. For Gideon, sacrificing himself to save Liliana was the absolution he was seeking- throwing forward a good light for someone who needed it. How could the black oil twist this mentality? I think it would make him able to share it- not as strong of course, the conviction of his heart has been tainted, but still.


That was my point, he'd be a terrifying and powerful general. The reason White Phyrexians are so terrifying is that they have access to the power of friendship, though they don't all necessarily use it. Elesh Norn herself is too broad-minded to really care for her agents individually, at some level she sees many as disposable in service to the Great Work, but Gideon would both be a terrifying warrior and an actually good and caring leader to the other Phyrexians, improving their loyalty and cohesion and stopping the Praetors from deviating to the grander vision. A Phyrexian Gideon would actually make Phyrexia more powerful by making it less inwardly evil, and therefore less self-destructive, while still being totally loyal to the outward-facing evil cause of multiversal domination. I actually think the oil would strengthen, not weaken, his "pure of heart and truly loyal" power base, as it would give him TRUE conviction, free from the tiny human doubts that infected even his, most hubris addled mind. I also think it would actually magnify his guilt, not absolve it, because he would be connected to literally every Phyrexian, and every dead Phyrexian would be one he had failed to save, and every dead Fleshling would be one he had failed to save with the gift of compleation. He would be infinitely tortured, and it would be beautifully ironic on so many levels.

That said, the point I was making was more of a nitpick that he can't really practically extend his aura, at least not much or for very long, and that making others indestructible wouldn't be the scary part. Sure, the guy next to him might also be unkillable, but the guy next to him is probably not much more threatening than the guy who isn't. He himself though, would wade through multiple hells alone to get to someone threatening his family, and he'd survive the experience, too.

Anyway, all of this is moot because Gideon genuinely got a perfect ending to an arc (even if the book was meh) and I'd honestly be really upset if they tried to bring him back for a cheap gut punch.

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## Dienekes

All this talk about my boy Gids is reminding me of my desire to just see an uncomplicated good mono-white planeswalker/god/angel that doesn't die, or turn evil, or whatever. Doesn't have to be a protagonist of a series or anything. Just someone I can go "Yeah, I like them. They're nice." When they show up. 

I just realized I want Mr. Rogers the planeswalker.

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## enderlord99

> All this talk about my boy Gids is reminding me of my desire to just see an uncomplicated mono-white planeswalker/god/angel that doesn't die, or turn evil, or whatever


Teyo fits, at least so far.

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## Fable Wright

> All this talk about my boy Gids is reminding me of my desire to just see an uncomplicated mono-white planeswalker/god/angel that doesn't die, or turn evil, or whatever. Doesn't have to be a protagonist of a series or anything. Just someone I can go "Yeah, I like them. They're nice." When they show up. 
> 
> I just realized I want Mr. Rogers the planeswalker.


The problem is that such a character is perfect for the narrative role of "well we kill them now so the audience KNOWS it's serious!"

I share in your frustration, but the MTG misery mill is too strong to let such a character exist for prolonged periods of time. The only people immune to getting screwed over _appear_ to be Jace and Chandra... and to be 100% honest I'm not sure how long Chandra has left.

Jace, of course, has Darksteel Plot Armor. Nothing truly bad will ever happen to him.

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## Dienekes

> Teyo fits, at least so far.


Oh hey, I forgot about Shield-Boy. Here's hoping he pops up some point to be nice and make a shield.




> The problem is that such a character is perfect for the narrative role of "well we kill them now so the audience KNOWS it's serious!"
> 
> I share in your frustration, but the MTG misery mill is too strong to let such a character exist for prolonged periods of time. The only people immune to getting screwed over _appear_ to be Jace and Chandra... and to be 100% honest I'm not sure how long Chandra has left.
> 
> Jace, of course, has Darksteel Plot Armor. Nothing truly bad will ever happen to him.


Yeah, and I want them to stop doing that. Or just, give me one where it doesn't happen. Serra died, Gids died, Avacyn and Oketra went evil and died. Elspeth died, though, now she's got better. We'll see on that one.

They keep killing off or corrupting characters I like, and I've not too keen on their obvious replacements. Not the white example, but, I don't really care that Chandra was clearly meant to replace Jaya. Jaya was way more fun.

Hell, even my dear Squee lost his immortality card.

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## Personification

> All this talk about my boy Gids is reminding me of my desire to just see an uncomplicated good mono-white planeswalker/god/angel that doesn't die, or turn evil, or whatever. Doesn't have to be a protagonist of a series or anything. Just someone I can go "Yeah, I like them. They're nice." When they show up. 
> 
> I just realized I want Mr. Rogers the planeswalker.


We had a Mister Rogers planeswalker, it was Ajani.
Honestly, though, modern-day Teferi works for that pretty well, too. He was a stay at home dad for decades before getting back in the game around WAR, and he's still mostly just their to make puns and tea. That said, neither is mono-White (Ajani was White-core) and the real issue isn't the personality but the ending. It's honestly just that White is the most likely to sacrifice themself for a cause, so White characters tend to end with tragic sacrifices. Plus, Magic is a game about fighting, so things end up going poorly for people.




> The problem is that such a character is perfect for the narrative role of "well we kill them now so the audience KNOWS it's serious!"
> 
> I share in your frustration, but the MTG misery mill is too strong to let such a character exist for prolonged periods of time. The only people immune to getting screwed over _appear_ to be Jace and Chandra... and to be 100% honest I'm not sure how long Chandra has left.
> 
> Jace, of course, has Darksteel Plot Armor. Nothing truly bad will ever happen to him.


Neither Jace nor Chandra is immune to that at all. They both have SUPER dark backstories, and bad stuff happens to them all of the time. Also, they really haven't had more plot armor than all of the others, they're just more forward facing so they have been memed. As popular characters, it's true that they are unlikely to die soon, but I doubt they're going to kill off anyone else in the original WUBRG Gatewatch soon anyway, and there are plenty of other 'Walkers who I would be equally shocked at the sudden demise of. 

Plus, Chandra's going through a tough breakup right now and Jace, who is out of Standard for the first time since the character was introduced (a fact that both supports and undercuts my point) hasn't been seen since he died in the (non-canon) BOOM! comics. For all we know, next we see of Jace will be his ghost.

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## Fable Wright

> Neither Jace nor Chandra is immune to that at all. They both have SUPER dark backstories, and bad stuff happens to them all of the time.


Uh huh. Jace has not, to my knowledge, ever been crippled, compleated, forced to lose his spark, killed, turned insane, or forced to face, like, actual consequences for the Eldrazi incident, or being the most irresponsible being in the world to be the living Guildpact, or subjecting readers to a depressing number of _really ****ty romance arcs_.

Nor has Chandra, but, you know, they didn't kill Avacyn to save Chandra's life.

Compare Garruk (insane), Gideon (dead), Venser (dead and spark removed), Tezzeret (insane), Tamiyo (compleated), Ajani (compleated), Elspeth (dead), Koth (was presumed dead during Scars of Mirrodin when I played, never been seen again), Sarkhan Vol (insane).

Bear in mind that my formative years of Magic were Shards of Alara through Zendikar. My favorite planeswalkers when I played actively were Garruk Wildspeaker, followed by Sorin Markov, Elspeth Tirel, Venser the Sojourner, and Liliana Vess. The only planeswalkers introduced from that time who have not been subjected to Real Bad Stuff are Jace, Chandra, Nissa (who was introduced to me as an elf supremacist who _unleashed the Eldrazi to the multiverse_ and I do not forgive her), Karn, and Liliana. Sorin had to _kill Avacyn_. Out of the fifteen planeswalkers I really cared about, 10 got _unbelievably_ screwed over. Jace is not one of them. And I guess the sixteenth is Tibalt for whom I have no strong feelings one way or the other.

Liliana's going to get bodyjacked by Lim-Dul, so I'm discounting her from too much in the way of plot armor. Karn can absolutely get merc'd. Nissa deserves whatever happens to her and can be replaced as the face of Greenwalkers at this point, so her plot armor's down.  This leaves Jace and Chandra as people who have dodged every consequence thrown at them thus far, and Jace has been on all the promotional material, been in Standard constantly, had Avacyn die to save him, taunted Garruk the Planeswalker Hunter and lived, screwed with Nicol Bolas and lived, became the worst absentee dad of Ravnica in a story with an _unforgivably_ bad 'romance' with a Selesnya girl, and there's no sign that he will ever face consequences for... anything?

Darksteel-grade plot armor.

If I find out that Wizards actually killed him off for real, I will throw a party. 'A temporary amnesia plotline resolved within the same set it was introduced' does not count as bad thing compared to any of the other fifteen.

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## LaZodiac

> All this talk about my boy Gids is reminding me of my desire to just see an uncomplicated good mono-white planeswalker/god/angel that doesn't die, or turn evil, or whatever. Doesn't have to be a protagonist of a series or anything. Just someone I can go "Yeah, I like them. They're nice." When they show up. 
> 
> I just realized I want Mr. Rogers the planeswalker.


I realize he hasn't... done, anything yet, but Basri Ket is right here.




> Jace, of course, has Darksteel Plot Armor. Nothing truly bad will ever happen to him.


A very large portion of the entire last major story line was "bad things happening to Jace and Chandra".

EDIT: Jace suffered for god knows how long on Useless Island, with basically nothing to eat, plagued by trauma flashbacks he didn't understand. He's absolutely suffered. And hey, his romance stuff is good! To each their own of course.

Chandra too. She's had to deal with someone she really, truly loved telling her they can't be together, went on a revenge quest that ended with zero satisfaction, and is gonna learn that her second mom is dead, among other things. Chandra's been through the ringer too.

Tezzeret isn't insane, he's doin' pretty good for himself actually. Elspeth very much isn't dead right now. We've gotten word Koth's actually doing good last we heard, with the last of the Mirran Resistance. Sarkhan Vol literally had an entire story arc of him healing and being better, he's no longer insane anymore, just recovering from it.

Acting like Karn hasn't suffered is... wrong, on so many levels. Nissa suffered a lot during the fight with Emrakul, and has gone through a lot of character growth since she did the big dumb idiot thing she did back then. And I'm pretty sure Liliana is going to win that particular fight.




> We had a Mister Rogers planeswalker, it was Ajani.
> Honestly, though, modern-day Teferi works for that pretty well, too. He was a stay at home dad for decades before getting back in the game around WAR, and he's still mostly just their to make puns and tea. That said, neither is mono-White (Ajani was White-core) and the real issue isn't the personality but the ending. It's honestly just that White is the most likely to sacrifice themself for a cause, so White characters tend to end with tragic sacrifices. Plus, Magic is a game about fighting, so things end up going poorly for people.
> 
> Neither Jace nor Chandra is immune to that at all. They both have SUPER dark backstories, and bad stuff happens to them all of the time. Also, they really haven't had more plot armor than all of the others, they're just more forward facing so they have been memed. As popular characters, it's true that they are unlikely to die soon, but I doubt they're going to kill off anyone else in the original WUBRG Gatewatch soon anyway, and there are plenty of other 'Walkers who I would be equally shocked at the sudden demise of. 
> 
> Plus, Chandra's going through a tough breakup right now and Jace, who is out of Standard for the first time since the character was introduced (a fact that both supports and undercuts my point) hasn't been seen since he died in the (non-canon) BOOM! comics. For all we know, next we see of Jace will be his ghost.


Yeah, Teferi is here! He's the greatest! Definitely exactly the sorta vibe you're looking for, too.

Chandra's got a girlfriend on Innistrad so there is that an- WAIT WHAT THE **** JACE DIED IN THE COMIC??????????????????????

----------


## Personification

> I realize he hasn't... done, anything yet, but Basri Ket is right here.
> 
> 
> 
> A very large portion of the entire last major story line was "bad things happening to Jace and Chandra".
> 
> EDIT: Jace suffered for god knows how long on Useless Island, with basically nothing to eat, plagued by trauma flashbacks he didn't understand. He's absolutely suffered. And hey, his romance stuff is good! To each their own of course.
> 
> Chandra too. She's had to deal with someone she really, truly loved telling her they can't be together, went on a revenge quest that ended with zero satisfaction, and is gonna learn that her second mom is dead, among other things. Chandra's been through the ringer too.
> ...


Thanks for backing me up there. Also, a point to be made about plot armor and context is where a character is coming from. Koth was never going to be OK because Koth is from a Borg cube, and we all knew that. Plus, the tragic backstory I was referring to was "bullied a ton as a child, then gets betrayed by a father figure but he doesn't even know any of that because he woke up in the middle of a big city as a teenager with no home and no memory, just lots of questions and unresolved trauma (and yes, Jace's childhood trauma does still affect him, despite him not remembering it; apparently, it is clear to the extent that Dovin felt comfortable just calling out that he was bullied as a child (before he remembered being one).

*Spoiler: Comic spoilers*
Show

Also, yeah. Marit Lage got hardcoded to follow Jace, and was going to eat Ravnica, so they went to middle-of-nowhere Amonkhet and had him mind-meld with Liliana to imprint every single zombie with an illusory version of his brain (so that Marit Lage would always think she was surrounded by loyal followers who can't die, and therefore never need to leave, but he had to stay so she couldn't trace his brain back somewhere else.

----------


## Fable Wright

> A very large portion of the entire last major story line was "bad things happening to Jace and Chandra".
> 
> EDIT: Jace suffered for god knows how long on Useless Island, with basically nothing to eat, plagued by trauma flashbacks he didn't understand. He's absolutely suffered. And hey, his romance stuff is good! To each their own of course.
> 
> Chandra too. She's had to deal with someone she really, truly loved telling her they can't be together, went on a revenge quest that ended with zero satisfaction, and is gonna learn that her second mom is dead, among other things. Chandra's been through the ringer too.
> 
> Tezzeret isn't insane, he's doin' pretty good for himself actually. Elspeth very much isn't dead right now. We've gotten word Koth's actually doing good last we heard, with the last of the Mirran Resistance. Sarkhan Vol literally had an entire story arc of him healing and being better, he's no longer insane anymore, just recovering from it.
> 
> Acting like Karn hasn't suffered is... wrong, on so many levels. Nissa suffered a lot during the fight with Emrakul, and has gone through a lot of character growth since she did the big dumb idiot thing she did back then. And I'm pretty sure Liliana is going to win that particular fight.


I'm not saying that they haven't suffered. That's character drama. 

I also acknowledge that yes, after over a decade, Garruk became sane again, and Sarkhan Vol was only driven insane for four years. Tezzeret... admittedly, that's a goof on my part, he just went full evil. 

None of Karn, Chandra, Jace, Liliana, and Nissa were mutated by the plot into something that was meaningfully different from their original cards. None of them are now sporting Phyrexian mana costs. To my knowledge, no fan of the characters ever had to open a pack, look at their card, and said "this isn't the character I came to like". Or realized, "I will never open a pack of cards with this character again." Admittedly, Sorin Markov shares that distinction.

With that being said, they very much demonstrated being willing to kill off Elspeth and Koth. In a story, I might worry about them killing or compleating either of those two. I would suffer precisely 0 fears of such occurring to Chandra or Jace.

----------


## Amidus Drexel

> None of Karn, Chandra, Jace, Liliana, and Nissa were mutated by the plot into something that was meaningfully different from their original cards. None of them are now sporting Phyrexian mana costs. To my knowledge, no fan of the characters ever had to open a pack, look at their card, and said "this isn't the character I came to like". Or realized, "I will never open a pack of cards with this character again." Admittedly, Sorin Markov shares that distinction.


That really depends on what you mean by "meaningfully different". While in general I'd say Jace's core personality hasn't changed a ton (hey, it's easy to write "guy who doesn't know much about the situation and is a little unsure if he's doing the right thing"), if we're talking about his _original_ card...  When he was working for the Consortium, Jace was a villain (albeit occasionally a reluctant one). I doubt many people are too attached to Jace's original characterization (it was such a long time ago and his transformation was gradual), but he wasn't always the goody-two-shoes poster boy for heroism that people associate with him now. 

Nissa's core personality has arguably changed the most, as she's quite a bit more than _just_ "xenophobic elf that caused a huge catastrophe by not listening". Like Jace, I doubt many people were attached to her early characterization, but it's hard to argue that she hasn't changed. 

The two immortal characters obviously haven't changed much over such a short timeframe, though Liliana was definitely on the road to improving herself leading up to War of the Spark (I haven't kept up too much since that massive garbage fire).

That really just leaves Chandra, who is definitely the same person she was in her earlier stories. No argument there.




> With that being said, they very much demonstrated being willing to kill off Elspeth and Koth. In a story, I might worry about them killing or compleating either of those two. I would suffer precisely 0 fears of such occurring to Chandra or Jace.


I could see wotc killing off Jace. I don't think it's particularly compelling right now, but it certainly could be depending on where they go with the current major story thread (and the fact that it isn't particularly compelling doesn't mean they won't do it - RIP Dack Fayden). I'll agree that Chandra's death doesn't seem particularly likely - she doesn't really have as big of a stake in the New Phyrexia plot yet, and has yet to really suffer from it.

----------


## Dienekes

> Yeah, Teferi is here! He's the greatest! Definitely exactly the sorta vibe you're looking for, too.


I understand this is probably 100% my fault for my very haphazard jumping around reading the lore from when I stopped playing. But I really havent seen much of Teferi. And he has a lot to make up for, since the biggest thing I remember about him is seeing the world was in trouble from the greatest danger in history and deciding Yeah, that seems like a you problem.

----------


## LaZodiac

> That really depends on what you mean by "meaningfully different". While in general I'd say Jace's core personality hasn't changed a ton (hey, it's easy to write "guy who doesn't know much about the situation and is a little unsure if he's doing the right thing"), if we're talking about his _original_ card...  When he was working for the Consortium, Jace was a villain (albeit occasionally a reluctant one). I doubt many people are too attached to Jace's original characterization (it was such a long time ago and his transformation was gradual), but he wasn't always the goody-two-shoes poster boy for heroism that people associate with him now. 
> 
> Nissa's core personality has arguably changed the most, as she's quite a bit more than _just_ "xenophobic elf that caused a huge catastrophe by not listening". Like Jace, I doubt many people were attached to her early characterization, but it's hard to argue that she hasn't changed. 
> 
> The two immortal characters obviously haven't changed much over such a short timeframe, though Liliana was definitely on the road to improving herself leading up to War of the Spark (I haven't kept up too much since that massive garbage fire).
> 
> That really just leaves Chandra, who is definitely the same person she was in her earlier stories. No argument there.
> 
> I could see wotc killing off Jace. I don't think it's particularly compelling right now, but it certainly could be depending on where they go with the current major story thread (and the fact that it isn't particularly compelling doesn't mean they won't do it - RIP Dack Fayden). I'll agree that Chandra's death doesn't seem particularly likely - she doesn't really have as big of a stake in the New Phyrexia plot yet, and has yet to really suffer from it.


The thing about Jace's characterization is that the swarmy, sarcastic ******* blue mage persona... was definitely put on so he could take advantage of it. I've read Agents of Artifice, he might do some morally dubious things and definitely works as an interplanar assassin but he's still a little meowmeow loser nerd who is just trying to put up a brave face to stay strong and also annoy his opponents. His later characterization is him basically just, lowering those defenses.

Chandra's actually changed a fair bit! It's harder to tell but her brashness is a bit more cautious now, and she's a bit more adult. Back in the Purifying Fire she was extremely a bratty teen who accidentally set a forest on fire and was like "oops my bad". Modern Chandra is at the tail end of going from "apologize better for burning the forest down" to "actually don't burn the forest down in the first place". Harder to see character growth, but still there.




> I understand this is probably 100% my fault for my very haphazard jumping around reading the lore from when I stopped playing. But I really havent seen much of Teferi. And he has a lot to make up for, since the biggest thing I remember about him is seeing the world was in trouble from the greatest danger in history and deciding Yeah, that seems like a you problem.


To put it lightly, his entire characterization in modern magic story has been him having spent literal years thinking about that moment and going "holy **** I, and really by extension every single Oldwalker with that mentality, was a massive ****ing monster and I'm going to do my best to make up for that with the copious amount of time I have left."

EDIT: Also funny time dad antics. Teferi's writing properly channels the good comedic aspects of his previous character, but shows he's grown and learned from the centuries of hearing about Teferi, the great and powerful idiot that lost an entire country due to negligence.

----------


## Lord Raziere

I've only known Teferi from the Time Spiral books, he sacrificed his spark to close a rift, like he was the first one to do that? so he seemed like a good guy at that point.

----------


## LaZodiac

> I've only known Teferi from the Time Spiral books, he sacrificed his spark to close a rift, like he was the first one to do that? so he seemed like a good guy at that point.


That was the start of him doing good, but after the Great Mending everyone started in universe re-evaluating things many oldwalkers had done; in Teferi's case, phasing out all of Zhalfir without their permission because he didn't want to participate in the war against Phyrexia... and then not putting it back. Now it's stuck, he's not powerful enough to bring it back, and the survivors see him as the genuine monster many Oldwalkers were in their hearts.

Many a year of wandering later he met someone who made him realize instead of sulking he should actually work to help people. The best time to plant a tree was yesterday, the second best time is today, as the saying goes. So he's been working on redeeming himself and finding absolution within his heart.

----------


## Dienekes

> To put it lightly, his entire characterization in modern magic story has been him having spent literal years thinking about that moment and going "holy **** I, and really by extension every single Oldwalker with that mentality, was a massive ****ing monster and I'm going to do my best to make up for that with the copious amount of time I have left."
> 
> EDIT: Also funny time dad antics. Teferi's writing properly channels the good comedic aspects of his previous character, but shows he's grown and learned from the centuries of hearing about Teferi, the great and powerful idiot that lost an entire country due to negligence.


See that sounds good. Ill see if my impression holds up when I get to his books, but I can respect this. 

Might make him the first blue mage Ive liked since Barrin decided to try out red mana that one time.

----------


## enderlord99

My opponent was at 1 life and had a Black Market Connections trigger on the stack... then *I* conceded simply because I thought it would be funny.

Obviously, I am not a Spike.

----------


## Emmerlaus

*Spoiler: The new Warhammer commander decks*
Show

For the new Warhammer commander decks, only two-three cards are interesting to me. And only one of them truly would have a place in one of my deck. I mean, Vexilus Praetor woudl be so OP in a deck with a planeswalker as a commander but Im sure it going to be like 20$-30$ or more. Its that OP.

The most tempting card for me is Out of the Tombs and even then, it's not a necessity in my Ghen, Arcanium Weaver deck. Sure it would make it a bit faster when I can play it but its also a double-edged sword.

If I had still a Alela, Artful Provocateur deck, I would get The Golden Throne though.

----------


## Amechra

> Jace suffered for god knows how long on Useless Island, with basically nothing to eat, plagued by trauma flashbacks he didn't understand. He's absolutely suffered. And hey, his romance stuff is good! To each their own of course.


To be fair, he suffered... and then became a _cool pirate_ and entered into what was _probably_ the first healthy relationship he's ever been in. 

...

I'm honestly in the boat where Tamiyo was shocking but Ajani was... meh. Like, don't get me wrong  I like the handsome lion man as much as the next person. I just feel like the current Phyrexia arc is moving _way_ too fast.

Like, over the course of the last four story sets:

 Vorinclex gets chucked through the Planar Bridge, almost dies, and gets a sample of the World Tree. Jin Gitaxias gets through the Planar Bridge without dying (because he's ALL MACHINE), meets up with Tezzeret, and they both figure out how to use the Reality Chip to compleat Tamiyo. Urabrask wants to meet up with Elspeth to basically let her know that stuff is about to get real. FULL SCALE INVASION OF DOMINARIA. THEY'VE APPARENTLY PERFECTED TO THE PLANESWALKER COMPLEATION PROCESS, CAN COMPLEAT PEOPLE INTO SLEEPERS, AND-

...

I think part of my problem is that the current arc feels very _forced_. If you had asked me about what a modern Phyrexia story line before Kaldheim came out, I would have _probably_ gone with a plane-hopping story where a bunch of planeswalkers (probably lead by a now-alive Elspeth, because why not?) traveled from plane to plane, cleaning up the infestations of Phyrexians left behind from when Karn was dripping the Oil everywhere he went. Maybe partway through you'd get the "oh no, the fan favorite praetors have figured out the planar bridge!" moment, but mostly use it as an excuse to introduce some new planes.

Heck, I thought they were going to go for an "oh no, now we have to stop Tamiyo (and maybe some other compleated planeswalkers) from running around and seeding places with the Phyrexian oil!", not... whatever this arc is.

----------


## noob

> To be fair, he suffered... and then became a _cool pirate_ and entered into what was _probably_ the first healthy relationship he's ever been in. 
> 
> ...
> 
> I'm honestly in the boat where Tamiyo was shocking but Ajani was... meh. Like, don't get me wrong  I like the handsome lion man as much as the next person. I just feel like the current Phyrexia arc is moving _way_ too fast.
> 
> Like, over the course of the last four story sets:
> 
>  Vorinclex gets chucked through the Planar Bridge, almost dies, and gets a sample of the World Tree. Jin Gitaxias gets through the Planar Bridge without dying (because he's ALL MACHINE), meets up with Tezzeret, and they both figure out how to use the Reality Chip to compleat Tamiyo. Urabrask wants to meet up with Elspeth to basically let her know that stuff is about to get real. FULL SCALE INVASION OF DOMINARIA. THEY'VE APPARENTLY PERFECTED TO THE PLANESWALKER COMPLEATION PROCESS, CAN COMPLEAT PEOPLE INTO SLEEPERS, AND-
> ...


Maybe it is about how sneaky pyrexians were: they were sneaky enough to set up quietly all those things and people realise at the last moment, to make readers feel how surprising it is for all the characters they make it appear sudden even if it took quite some time.

----------


## enderlord99

I actually _really like_ this arc.  Like, at first they implied that Vorinclex was merely retrieving the World Tree elixir to make Elesh Norn into a god, but the latest story implies that they have other uses in mind for it.

----------


## LaZodiac

> To be fair, he suffered... and then became a _cool pirate_ and entered into what was _probably_ the first healthy relationship he's ever been in. 
> 
> ...
> 
> I'm honestly in the boat where Tamiyo was shocking but Ajani was... meh. Like, don't get me wrong  I like the handsome lion man as much as the next person. I just feel like the current Phyrexia arc is moving _way_ too fast.
> 
> Like, over the course of the last four story sets:
> 
>  Vorinclex gets chucked through the Planar Bridge, almost dies, and gets a sample of the World Tree. Jin Gitaxias gets through the Planar Bridge without dying (because he's ALL MACHINE), meets up with Tezzeret, and they both figure out how to use the Reality Chip to compleat Tamiyo. Urabrask wants to meet up with Elspeth to basically let her know that stuff is about to get real. FULL SCALE INVASION OF DOMINARIA. THEY'VE APPARENTLY PERFECTED TO THE PLANESWALKER COMPLEATION PROCESS, CAN COMPLEAT PEOPLE INTO SLEEPERS, AND-
> ...


If it helps, part of why Sheoldred was able to be so effective in Dominaria is because there's a ton of Phyrexian cults on the plane already. She just showed up and gave everyone the extra special touch of "One of the real ones", for lack of a better term. She gave them the energy and focus to do what they've always wanted to do. You can probably think of some examples (and I was gonna make one) but realized against it since I didn't want to evoke the imagery.

I do agree it's moving a little fast, but I don't think it is forced necessarily. And it's not _that_ fast, to me. I think the glut of information that comes with them announcing every set for next year has made it feel way quicker and forced, is part of the issue- we already know when this arc will END, and it really only just begun it feels like, due to Sheoldred's actions.

----------


## Androgeus

> Like, over the course of the last four story sets


6 story sets, just because Midnight Hunt/Crimson Vow was filler doesnt mean it didnt happen :P

----------


## RayGallade

> 6 story sets, just because Midnight Hunt/Crimson Vow was filler doesnt mean it didnt happen :P


Seven. Strixhaven happened between Kaldheim and Midnight Hunt

----------


## enderlord99

I expect Unfinity will have a card named something along the lines of "Vorthos, Lore Enthusiast" who will be mono-red.

EDIT: Called it!  "Steward of Myth" is much cooler than my attempt at a name, so that's neat.

----------


## noob

> I expect Unfinity will have a card named something along the lines of "Vorthos, Lore Enthusiast" who will be mono-red.


I guess it will have cool abilities then cost redredredredredred and nobody will use it because nobody wants a card that needs 6 mana all specifically red: it reduces the ability to use it with multicolour decks massively.
Many pure red decks are about beating the opponent by turn 3 with damage so they will also not want a card like that.

----------


## Androgeus

> I expect Unfinity will have a card named something along the lines of "Vorthos, Lore Enthusiast" who will be mono-red.


Or a mono-white Melvin card?

----------


## LaZodiac

Well there is a Vorthos card, and unlike all of you grumpy gooses guessed, it's actually quite good.

1R for a 1/3 human gamer. When ETB, choose a named MAGIC character. Each spell you cast with the named character in the art, card name, or flavour text costs WUBRG less to cast.

----------


## enderlord99

> Well there is a Vorthos card


Like I said: called it!


> and unlike all of you grumpy gooses guessed, it's actually quite good.


"All you grumpy gooses" meaning "just noob, because nobody else guessed anything other than color"

----------


## Spore

> Well there is a Vorthos card, and unlike all of you grumpy gooses guessed, it's actually quite good.
> 
> 1R for a 1/3 human gamer. When ETB, choose a named MAGIC character. Each spell you cast with the named character in the art, card name, or flavour text costs WUBRG less to cast.


Bad synergy with Chandra Tribal!  :Small Furious:

----------


## Androgeus

> Bad synergy with Chandra Tribal!


Que? Seems better than Chandra's Embercat.

----------


## Spore

> Que? Seems better than Chandra's Embercat.


Chandra usually only gets reduced by [R] then. :P

Embercat is cuter, though the true MVP of such decks is of course Chandra's Regulator

Cue discussions whether only having a regulator counts as "Chandra" in her artwork.

----------


## enderlord99

> Cue discussions whether only having a regulator counts as "Chandra" in her artwork.


It doesn't matter.  She's in the name, so it applies.

----------


## Androgeus

The question is, do Chandra cards get reduced if you name Jaya due to the goggles?

----------


## LaZodiac

> The question is, do Chandra cards get reduced if you name Jaya due to the goggles?


1: The goggles are not Jaya
2: Jaya gave Chandra the goggles, they are Chandra's goggles now

So doubly no.

----------


## Avaris

Im not normally someone who has much patience for price complaints, but $999 for 4 packs is obscene. I guess its not really supposed to be a draftable product, given it is basically a reprint of Beta, but with that being the case I would want more guarantees over the pulls, e.g. each pack will contain 1 of the power 9, one dual land, two other rares, 4 uncommons, 4 commons, 1 retro land, 1 normal land, and 1 additional retro frame card. As is, it feels very likely that a lot of sets of 4 will have nothing of significant interest.

----------


## Mystic Muse

Also, they're all *proxies* so they have essentially no value to begin with.

----------


## HolyDraconus

Also also, they made a collectors edition years ago that was every single card in beta and 60 lands for 50 bucks years ago. 
 They dont care about their fans anymore.

----------


## Debatra

Yeah, this is some top-tier nonsense.

----------


## Spore

I have seen this type of product before and it does not fare well ON PURPOSE. For one you get to divide the fanbase. Ones that go: "Oh, it's not that bad." One that go: "You'Re just mad because you  cannot afford it." and the majority of: "This is silly and dumb."

And then you release a more sensible marketed product. Suddenly they all go: "But it is not as bad as the product before." and "The product before was stupid bt that one seems sensible in comparison." I call it the "controlled freakout."

----------


## enderlord99

I know I'm not supposed to understand this and shouldn't care, but I _still_ can't help dwelling on it:

There's a difference between "[thing] isn't interesting" and "if [thing] is happening, even a little, then nothing interesting is happening" and I don't know how someone could ever seriously claim the latter.

----------


## LaZodiac

> I know I'm not supposed to understand this and shouldn't care, but I _still_ can't help dwelling on it:
> 
> There's a difference between "[thing] isn't interesting" and "if [thing] is happening, even a little, then nothing interesting is happening" and I don't know how someone could ever seriously claim the latter.


Yeah... MtG Grognards are some of the worst.

----------


## enderlord99

> Yeah... MtG Grognards are some of the worst.


Google isn't giving a relevant definition for "grognard" unless you're calling me one, which would be fair TBH.

----------


## LaZodiac

> Google isn't giving a relevant definition for "grognard" unless you're calling me one, which would be fair TBH.


Not calling you one. It's a slang term mostly from the DND community used against people who are like, needlessly complaining about things, especially for people stuck in their ways. Transformers fans would call them Genwunners, cause they only care about Generation One Transformers. I typically use it for the former, lighter term of "people who complain about **** they don't actually care about, for the sake of complaining" which is what a fair number of complaints about MTG product feels like to me.

----------


## enderlord99

> Not calling you one. It's a slang term mostly from the DND community used against people who are like, needlessly complaining about things, especially for people stuck in their ways. Transformers fans would call them Genwunners, cause they only care about Generation One Transformers. I typically use it for the former, lighter term of "people who complain about **** they don't actually care about, for the sake of complaining" which is what a fair number of complaints about MTG product feels like to me.


I wasn't referring to complaints about _product_.

I was referring to statements like "If you countered a spell this game, then by definition nothing interesting has happened all game."

----------


## LaZodiac

> I wasn't referring to complaints about _product_.
> 
> I was referring to statements like "If you countered a spell this game, then by definition nothing interesting has happened all game."


Okay fair that's my misread of what you said.

Conflict between the five mana types and how they play is always going to cause some concern and I'm sorry your fun (counter and stax) is so disliked by others even though it's clearly fun for you.

----------


## enderlord99

> Okay fair that's my misread of what you said.
> 
> Conflict between the five mana types and how they play is always going to cause some concern and I'm sorry your fun (counter and stax) is so disliked by others even though it's clearly fun for you.


Counterspells aren't something I focus on.  I don't even think they're fun, usually.  I just don't think they render _whole games_ un-fun by their slightest presence.

Stax isn't my thing either, except that one deck that I don't really use any more because I feel guilty for it.  I do technically have stax-adjacent elements prominently featured in my current main deck, but they're not meant to disrupt my opponents' gameplan; rather, they're used to eliminate downsides of my own stuff.

EDIT:  I dislike wraths for the same reason I dislike the game ending quickly and being immediately followed by another: afterwards, there's nothing on the board any more, and everything's _simple_.  :Small Yuk:

----------


## LaZodiac

The War Between Brothers begins, and with it another season of really well written stories for us to read, enjoy, and then go "could have been better in some ways maybe". The story is split into two branches- the present day stuff, and the past events that Teferi is witnessing. With that said, let us begin... with the end.

*Spoiler: BROWAR PAST 1: Starting At The End*
Show

Episode one: The End! In this one, we follow Kayla of Kroog as she does her best to survive post Sylex Blast. The Ice Age is coming, Tawnos is setting up artifice for her city but clearly running out of desire to exist the way he does now, and those that worship the sun itself are going around slaughtering machines and those who use them. It's genuinely very cool, I've always wanted to see the immediate aftermath of Urza's reckoning, and here we are.


*Spoiler: BROWAR PAST 2: Ending At The Beginning*
Show

Episode two: The Beginning! We continue with Kayle, fresh from the heavy winters, dealing with the fact that Tawnos has killed himself or faked his death. This one is a lot more disjointed than the last, but with good reason; we are getting snippets of her life, and putting truth to the words "The world ended; then we woke up and life continued". I'm sure there's a ton of Ice Age references in this and the last one but I've been slack in my reading of older lore so I just don't know. That said, Kayla learning magic from the Third Path histories is really great, and hearing that Tawnos and Ashnod ABSOLUTELY got together and founded the first Tolarian academy is fun. Nod and Duck are fun new names for the two.

The little time travel specter Teferi leaves at the end, the lovely little story it spawns, and the ending lines of "the story would outlive the lives of those who heard it, but none would survive the ice" is ****ing amazing, as an aside.


*Spoiler: BROWAR PART 3: Typical Battlemech Campaign*
Show

Episode three: Sword One. In this short story, we follow a lance of Avenger pilots who are being sent out with their new sword model Avengers to fight in... the battle of Kroog. The battle where Mishra first shows the full extent of his might and the actual Brother War begins. The mood is ****ing dire, the story dark and bleak, and it truly is exactly how one would expect this story to go, knowing that Kroog dies that day. Genuinely brutal war story, which (along side the last two stories) is nice confirmation that they're not going to be softening any of what happened in this war. It was messy, miserable, and monstrous, from beginning to end.

Teferi's little time specter moment here has the same undercurrent of hope that Kayla's second story had, and I like that. Not yet. This is not yet time.


*Spoiler: BROWAR PRESENT 1: Teferi Just Rags On Oldwalkers For Five Pages*
Show

Chapter 1: Stronghold. In which we begin preparations for the inevitable. Many planeswalkers coming together at Urza's tower, on Teferi's request, all branching out to prepare their planes for the monsters beating at our door, just waiting to get in. Ixalan (no doubt by Saheeli's girlfriend whose name escapes me as I write this), Kaldheim by Kaya's good good friends Beef Largehuge and Niko. Jace is petitioning on Ravnica to get it ready. Chandra is going to Zendikar to see Nissa and get that plane ready and definitely not fulfill everyone's dreams of maybe sparking up their friendship again. Teferi found Wrenn and Seven on the deepest deep cut I've ever seen (the plane mentioned is important to The Cursed Land, the fifth ever MTG book) and she's here to help keep Urza's tower safe.

Adding to that... Viviene and Elspeth are here. Viviene will be going to try and rally Ikoria together. Elspeth is here as our expert on feeling bad and killing the demon machines. We learn from them that Urabrask is 100% going to murderize Elesh Norn and that his revolution is gonna start sooner rather than later, and that he's in communication with the Mirran Resistance within his lands to make it work. We also learn Koth is alive, and in contact with Jace of all people (I choose to believe Tezzeret send Koth to him to get his golden blue boy working harder). Our heroes all kinda dawn on what Elesh Norn's "One Singularity" plan is and how truly awful it'll be...

And then we get this beautiful scene of Teferi venting all his frustration to Wrenn, and then Elspeth. Talking about the truisms that have stuck with the Old Walker stories forever: every old walker, and many characters in general, and almost all who have ties to Urza, are huge ****ing baby children who ****ed up everything on their foolish whims. Urza's plans were only ever wild, crazy luck that caused get ruin regardless of if the risk paid off or not, Teferi was an egotistical tyrant who literally told Urza "**** you got mine" and lorded that small victory over him. The past is full of people who have made horrid mistakes gladly and gleefully... and here he is, rounding the circle of time back to the same moment. 

The enemy is still Phyrexia, only this time he's Urza, and hopefully, maybe, we'll find a happy end at the end of this dark tunnel.

It's **** like this that makes me love writing, and love huge, sprawling fictions like MTG. Good ****, good ****.

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## IthilanorStPete

I've only read the first 2 stories so far, but I definitely liked them. 
*Spoiler: Brother's War story spoilers*
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Seeing the aftermath of the war is interesting, as is getting more of Kayla's POV than what was in the original novel, especially with her learning magic. Incidentally, "Duck" was Ashnod's nickname for Tawnos in the old book, fun to see that get referenced. I love those two, even if Ashnod is...ethically challenged.

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## enderlord99

Why is it that when I say "I like long, complicated games" people hear "I play lots of counterspells and stax pieces"

Those strategies are indeed long, but they're not that complicated.

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## Spore

> Why is it that when I say "I like long, complicated games" people hear "I play lots of counterspells and stax pieces"
> 
> Those strategies are indeed long, but they're not that complicated.


I don't know, but I sometimes hate your opinions on this very thread, but I would love to delve into some degenerate control mirrors with you. Trolling people with Teferi 5 and T3feri in MTGA was like the most fun I have had outside of Big Red Control. The former deck around Teferi 5 didnt even have a proper wincon, it was literally just designed around winning microscopic advantages, and either annoying your enemy to death: Just take your enemy wincon. If I **** up I have no wincon, only suffering.

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## IthilanorStPete

> Why is it that when I say "I like long, complicated games" people hear "I play lots of counterspells and stax pieces"
> 
> Those strategies are indeed long, but they're not that complicated.


Depending on the particular control deck, counterspell-based control mirrors _can_ be really interesting with a lot of subtle maneuvering and interesting decisions, but they can also just be really slow grindfests.

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## Androgeus

I hate grindfests, mainly because I know I'll make a misplay leading to my loss. I'll stick to playing the most aggressive versions of RDW I can.

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## Personification

Thanks for the great write up, LaZodiac. One small nitpick is that Nod and Duck actually founded the Conclave of Mages, not the Tolarian Academy. Though speaking of the Tolarian Avademy, I love the note that the last time Teferi saw the face Elspeth made when she learned about Ajani was when he told Barrin about Rayne, which is DARK.

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## LaZodiac

> Thanks for the great write up, LaZodiac. One small nitpick is that Nod and Duck actually founded the Conclave of Mages, not the Tolarian Academy. Though speaking of the Tolarian Avademy, I love the note that the last time Teferi saw the face Elspeth made when she learned about Ajani was when he told Barrin about Rayne, which is DARK.


Okay that's my bad, I forgot what the big mage school was in the Ice Age. Thanks for the correction.

Also yeah ****, especially given what Barrin does immediately after that... yeah. That's dark as hell, and very sad.

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## Spore

> I hate grindfests, mainly because I know I'll make a misplay leading to my loss. I'll stick to playing the most aggressive versions of RDW I can.


Isn't a misplay in RDW usually much more devastating? Of course your loss comes 20x sooner, but still. Aggro decks do not allow for misplays.

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## LaZodiac

More stories today! Let us peel away just a bit more of the past...

*Spoiler: BROWAR PAST 4: The Hell of War and the Beauty of Humanity*
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Episode 4: The Ink of Empires. We follow Farid, a Fallaji soldier in Mishra's army, and we get a lovely detailing of the powerful hell that is Waiting In War. The cold nights, the rotting trench. The dwindling supplies. It's honestly really well done. Then replacements arrive, and it becomes a lot clearer what this story is going to be about specifically; the genuine reality that this is a useless spat between two brothers that has dragged the entire world into it. There is an amazing scene where Farid tells a righteous, angry young soldier the truth of it. How the trench is older than he is, and how the dead have no allegiance- and neither should the living. If the line breaks you grab your cloak and boots and run. There will always be another trench, there may not be another pair of cloak and boots.

Sadly, the arrival of Ashnod's horrifying, Cenobite ass Transmogrants show up. It's clear that they're gearing up for a push. This coincides with something Farid and friends have done a lot- going out to trade supplies with Argivian's who also understand that war is a suckers game and they should hate their higher ups instead of each other. They talk, they share food and drink, they laugh, and it is beautiful. A reminder that even in this mudcaked hell, humanity still exists. They warn them of the Transmogrants, and are warned in turn of Tawnos' clay soldiers. The push begins, it is brutal, but the likewise warning ensures both sides survive. Life continues onward.

Teferi, popping in, watches with much sadness. This is true hell, and the waste of all this potential is sickening... to him, and existence. He can sense it, so many lives being lost that the timeline becomes bloated with it. He figured that'd be the easiest way to find the Argivian Reckoning happening... but there's JUST SO MUCH DEATH. He can't find it all. He does find scavengers, clearly future phyrexian cultists... who ask if he is the being from their dreams. Creepy.


*Spoiler: BROWAR PRESENT 2: Saheeli Chooses Peace*
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Chapter 2: Antiquities. Hah I see what you're doing MTG. Each present chapter is going to be an old set name. Nice.

Anyway this chapter focuses on Saheeli and her difficulties with the Temporal Anchor. Inspired by Urza's old time machine (but not directly, she took one look at the blueprints and was aghast at the thought that it ever functioned, especially since it gave zero ****s about the pilot), but designed to only send Teferi's spirit back, to avoid causing any timeline changes. Just too risky to do. They also note that the Moonsilver Key from Innistrad (which is integral to making time flow right on that plane) is being used to help with the time magic stuff. Nice! Kaya is also helping, because her ability to be half ghost and extend that to others allows her to make Teferi dead enough to go back in time as a spirit. Clever use of her powers!

Unfortunately, the machine is constantly faltering for some reason or another... and we finally learn why. A ghost, coming out of the sphere we saw MANY years ago in Teferi's first modern day story! it is here that we get the secondary function of the story; delving into Saheeli's past. We dip back, to her days as a young wunderkid inventor... being kidnapped by Gonti, Lord of Luxury, the Aetherborn crimelord. They need her to fix their heart, and will slaughter their entire family to do so. Left with little choice she does so, talking withthem all the while. Saheeli really wishes they'd stop doing crime that negatively affects others, and Gonti gives the genuinely good rebuttal of "Ghirapur considered us nonhumans worthy of extermination I don't really give a **** what happens to other people". Saheeli has no way to solve generational trauma on this scale and thus relents. 

However, upon fixing their heart, she learns that her family was never in danger; Gonti had already given the order not to kill them. An extension of good faith, because while Gonti is a crimelord who has experience the worst of this world and decided to own it, believing "to fight to war, you must BECOME the war", even they understand that peace should be given a chance. Saheeli takes genuine comfort in this, and while she is still distrustful of the Aetherborn crimelord, this does tie them as allies if not friends. Saheeli takes this lesson to heart; namely, that she'll never stop striving for peace.

It is with this in mind that she suggests they try to talk with the ghost sabotaging the Temporal Anchor. After catching and cornering it, we learn it is General Suruman, Urza's military commander! He was trying to stop them because, well... the fear that Urza's machines could be revived was too much to bare. It kept his spirit lingering for 5000 years, after all. Sadly he refuses to see the light, and Kaya sends him off into it- she's none to happy about it, and assures him he'll see his family on the other side. Saheeli is warmed by Kaya's compliment that she's a better person than she is (which Saheeli contests all the same), and uses this moment to think back to what motivates her; her family, and Huatli, her cool dinosaur taming bar warrior girlfriend. Mood.

We then get a little epilogue, with Jodah. Turns out the Starlight Orb as it is called, he knows what the deal is with it. The Thranese message on it reads "go back to the beginning and greet me the proper war", and while Teferi did not recognize what this meant, Jodah does. Way back when Teferi was a little ****, he'd always greet people with a joybuzzer spell, shocking anyone who'd shake his hand. Everyone at Tolaria learned not to do it... even Urza. So Jodah greets the orb similarly, opening up a pocket dimension to a construct of Urza's old log cabin home, full of books once thought lost, including a copy of The Antiquities War by Kayla (a very good book I'd recommend if you want the full Urza and Mishra focused scope of the war the past stories are throwing at you) and... a mechanically duplicate of Xantcha (Urza's Doctor Who esque ex-phyrexian traveling companion during his Planeswalker days) and Mishra. 

The Xantcha construct makes sure we know that she and the Mishrabot are not actually them- the true Xantcha has passed into Karn, after all. But she does note that, in her dreams, she is Xantcha... god Urza you've gotta stop giving full sapience to machines and then locking them in your closet for a thousand years. It turns out, this entire place is exactly what Suruman feared; all of Urza's blueprints for his war machines, plus the Legacy Weapon itself, are here. Jodah leaves us with two final things; one, letting the two know that Teferi, this world's intended recipient, will see it one day. And two, asking if dear old great great great great great great great great grandpa had any final words.

He did. "'Let us end our conflicts. We cannot afford to differ any longer.'"


Overall, these two stories are incredible. The present day story continues exploring the difficulties of getting this actually done, and exploring some of the consequences of the Brother's War. Giving our heroes room to breath a bit. Getting Saheeli's backstory is fantastic, since she kinda didn't get any coverage at all in her own set. It's cool! 

The past story continues to be a brilliant look at the war of machines from the perspective of the meat it ground into so much slurry and death. The Brother's War did not leave much room for perspectives that were not Urza and Mishra, and the few they did related directly to the Argivian Reckoning- which was less about the brutal totality of this ancient unending war, and more about how a soldier helped deliver Gaia's champion, Titania, into the tree robot to start cracking some skulls before Urza decided to nuke reality. 

It's really appreciated, showing the realities of war for what they are; you are a drone that no one cares about, put against people who would be your friend if the people above you didn't exist, slaughtering each other in an endless pursuit of something that no amount of bloodshed will gain you. No amount of killing will let Urza go back to just fixing clocks and making cool machines, and no amount of slaughter will let soothe Mishra's desire to hear "we think you're as cool as your brother, maybe cooler". All the killing gets you is dead children.

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## Androgeus

> Isn't a misplay in RDW usually much more devastating? Of course your loss comes 20x sooner, but still. Aggro decks do not allow for misplays.


Yes, but that misplay comes to fruition in like 3 minutes, not 10.

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## LaZodiac

Do you like Tezzeret and Elspeth? Cause today is a good day to like these characters.

*Spoiler: BROWAR PRESENT 3: Successfully Squeezing Sympathy Out Of Me For Tezzeret*
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Chapter 3: Nemesis. In this one, we get to hang out with Tezzeret, currently watching Karn's body being taken apart piece by piece by Elesh Norn's beautiful order. He hates it, he hates it so ****ing much. He despises all of this stifling order, that reminds me of the Seekers of Espur. He hates how shoving the Planar Bridge into his body and then warping Phyrexian's through it has given him a fatal case of the tummy aches, where the only solution is Urabrask's doctors literally burning his injuries to death so they slow the spreading decay. 

Most of all he hates that Ajani is compleated, because back in his time with Bolas, Ajani one of the few people Bolas went out of his way to distract because he was afraid of what that cat can do. I ****ing love this, it's so heart wrenching to see Ajani compleated, but it is outstanding to hear Tezzy boy, of all people, hyping him up as the one person who could go toe to toe with Nicky B, and how it sucks that he's gone now. Of course... as Tezzeret monologues to himself, he's not GONE gone. In order to keep the spark alive, the walker is still in there. Suppressed, sleeping, but not dead. Ajani may still be in there, and may be exerting some effort as well- he even notes that Ajani giving him his cloak (Elspeth's cloak, he recognizes) could be a sign that he's active and fighting against it all. Amazing.

Tezzeret is then told to cart Karn's pieces to Mom, so he can finally get the thing he's been hunting for all this time; a darksteel body to save himself from the Planar Bridge consuming him. Actually pretty sweet a deal... but as he thinks about it, it becomes pretty clear that Norn might know he betrayed her. He's done a lot behind the scenes- not least of which providing his ole "friend" Jace with some info, and hiring Kaya in secret to kill Daddy Vorebucks back on Kaldheim. He's worried they might be about to gut him- a valid worry indeed, especially since, um, the magical protection Bolas gave him from the Oil is wearing off. He's succumbing.

He attempts to spy on Norn using the Panopticon (thanks to Karn's help) and when it fails him, they have a spat about how Tezzeret is kinda responsible for all of this. He counters that they all are- sure Bolas was a psychotic monster who would have killed all but the most loyal but his first plan as God was to obliterate Phyrexia. Now they've got free reign of the multiverse, compleated some of Tezzeret's most hated enemies (which makes me suddenly incredibly afeared since all of Tezz's enemies include must of my favorite characters, more on that below) and are probably going to kill us all. At least he'll have his shiny body and the ability to just walk the **** out.

Of course once he brings Karn to Elesh Norn, within her garden, he realizes how small a chance of survival he has. The REALMBREAKER, Phyrexia's world tree, is growing wonderfully. Tezzeret knows exactly what this means. And as Mother carresses Karn's severed head, promising to do unspeakable things to him for the good of all, Tezzeret realizes he's not ever actually getting that darksteel body, the dip****. With anger bubbling in his heart, he returns to Shiv to wrest control of what remains of Sheoldred's minions (mostly Rona and some chaff, plus some of the blade-dogs from the end of The Thran and a phyrexian titan of some size) and head off to find our heroes.


*Spoiler: BROWAR PRESENT 4: The Healing Of An Seeping Wound*
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Chapter 4: The Dark. Not just a fitting title, but also a reference to something that happens near the end, but more once we get there. This one centers on Elspeth, who is... severely ****ing depressed. She is training Saheeli's Avengers, mostly to focus her brain on something that isn't all of her dead friends, but it's just not coming. She ends up snapping at Wrenn (who reads her like a book) because she's just... genuinely suffering from survivor's guilt and PTSD and has been for her entire life basically. It's a lot on her shoulders, and she's trying, but there's only so much you can do alone. 

Chandra and Nissa arrive, and that provides a decent distraction. They clearly want to be friends, but Elspeth is still chilly. Does not want to get too close. But when she overhears them talking about Jaya, she listens in. Chandra talks about the inciting incident of the Purifying Fire (and begs they not tell Nissa she once set an entire forest on fire) and how Jaya threatened to drown her over it. Jodah taunts that she stole that threat from him, and that she was never great at creation; did she ever try to cook? Chandra laughs and says yes- she made "THE QUICHE". This sends Jodah cackling, because she tried it with him once and it was so ****ing back, charred to a crisp... and if he could, he'd use the Temporal Anchor to go back and eat it. Every last charcoal. The crying begins, and Elspeth tries to slip away... but they notice her, and drag her in. Because while they may cry, this is a celebration. We tell stories of our dead so that we do not forget the good times we had.

Elspeth talks a bit, of Venser. Jodah knew him, and they bond a bit about it. Elspeth learns Jodah is an immortal, and gets some fantastic advice from him; it only gets easier if you allow yourself to love. She tries to take it to heart. Chandra then demands a toast. To Venser, to Jaya, to Gideon... to... and then she stops. Elspeth says it is okay, she can say Ajani... but Chandra decides. No. **** that. He's not dead yet. We'll get him back. Somehow, we will. Elspeth takes this to heart too, and they all toast their friends. To Venser. To Jaya. To Gideon. A couple days later the Phyrexians attack.

The attack is brutal, sudden, and dangerous. Elspeth and Jodah charge out to meet them, Saheeli's avengers making up the bulk of their forces. Wrenn and Nissa guard the inner sanctum's door. Chandra and the others wait inside (I think. They never mention where Chandra is during any of this and I only just now noticed this and am further feared). They face off against the horrid blade-dogs from the end of The Thran, phyrexian harpies, and all manner of beast, but the robotic soldiers and Jodah's spike traps- hidden by illusion- are enough to take down a lot of the ground troops... but then the titan appears, a skyship birthing legs and arms to begin stomping towards them.

It is here Jodah gives Elspeth a gift. The last shards of the mirror of memories he once used to cure his immortal brain fog. That Jaya shattered to awaken her planeswalker spark and obliterate their enemies back in The Dark, in a conflagration of overwhelming fury and fire. Light and flames are similar, and he thinks Elspeth more than Chandra will benefit from this gift. She takes him, he casts a spell through her, and she reaches out to all the worlds she has known... and in this moment reaches clarity. Protect, and be protected. Save Ajani. Slay the monsters at our door. As Jodah's words to her said; no matter her depression, no matter how broken she feels, she is still that white-hot sun, blinding with radiance. She is good, and she is going to be okay. In a pillar of godly light, obliterates the Phyrexian titan, rendering it into little more than particles. 

Unfortunately, this leaves them both heavily wounded and worn. A second strike time has hit the tower, they cannot stop it. Rona appears, glaive in hand, and downs them both with lightning. Then she impales Jodah. Elspeth manages to rise, manages to take Rona in the shoulder and send her sprawling. She edges to Jodah to heal him... and then Tezzy Boy appears. He sighs, looking at Rona- alive, some ****ing how. Shoulda aimed for the neck (he says this outright). Elspeth spits fury and hate at him, and he tells her straight up; don't bother fighting me. Just save your friend. She questions why he'd say this, why he's sparing her, and he says only this... small cracks, in any edifice, will spell its undoing. No matter how large.

He leaves, and with that the chapter ends.

Also, during this chapter (at basically every scene break) there is a vignette that touches on Elspeth's past, those she's encountered, and how they relate to her. All of them are phenomonal, and for pacing reasons I'll go through them all here. 
 - The first is Elspeth's own self depression, talking about her time in Bant and how everyone considered her the embodiment of hope and how she quit the battlefield as her berserker trauma rage finally broke through to the other side and she collapsed out of depression. As far as she's aware, the only lesson she gave anyone on Bant was that you should not hope. 
 - The second is a BRUTAL ****ing mythohistory story about Daxos, who stalks Theros, a hero by day but by night, his wanders the bladed grass of Erebos's realm, calling out for his lost love, the hero Elspeth. Every Full Moon he finds her, astride Polukranos' rotting corpse, and begs her explain HOW DARE SHE LIVE A STAINLESS LIFE OF GOOD, while he suffers so. The image of her smirks a cruel grin and strikes him in the chest, slaying him so that he may wake the next morning in pursuit once again. This one got me the hardest and is ****ing EVIL. Everything that happens on Theros is evil and I kinda hope the plane burns, just a little bit.
 - The third is about Calix, the nyxborn fateweaver hunting Elspeth down so he can return her to Theros for the crime of not following Klothys's specifically woven fate for her to ALSO be put under a giant boulder for eternity alongside Heliod. **** you you titanic bitch. Calix is dreaming of Elspeth, all her fights and strategies, so he can best combat her. But under it all is a singular fear that is seeping into his core; when he succeeds, what's next? (this is symbolic of Elspeth's own inner turmoil if it wasn't clear, the other two are far clearer in how they relate to Elspeth but this one is probably the least clear).
 - Fourth, we have Boy. Or what Once Was Boy. A phyrexian within the kingdoms of Old Capenna, thinking back on his time with Elspeth, and how they sought to escape the all consuming chaos of the oil. They hid among the viscera- but that very viscera is such a reminder of life, of course they found them there. It's all Phyrexia IS, this love of death, love of the dead they killed, love of their dead selves. They strung the children up, to be stripped clean and made anew. Elspeth slipped away, her spark saving her. Boy was not so unlucky. He's become One now, as all will.
- Fifth, and finally, and perhaps my favorite piece of writing in awhile... a love letter, from Ashiok to Elspeth, describing that even nightmares can have nightmares, and that their gold-and-white glad goddess of battle has inspired such sweet, beautiful nightmares in the grand cenobite. Ashiok wants Elspeth to know, from the depths of their smoky heart, that there is at least one soul within all of the multiverse that thinks only of her, that beats only of her. That admires only her, and the true terror she embodies. Yours dearest, Ashiok.



So I've been hyping up thte past couple stories for being really really good, a return to form, probably the best fiction MtG has put out in awhile.

These two stories, especially Elspeth's, are telling me that naw, naw, NOW they are. NOW we're at the best fiction they've put out in awhile. All those other stories are merely very good. So yeah, this has been ****ing fantastic, and I really, REALLY ask that you read it. This is the best time to be a Vorthos.

On that note time to talk about why this is the worst time to be a Vorthos: everyone you love is dead! Or more accurately...
*Spoiler: TEZZERET'S **** LIST AND THE PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE COMPLEATED*
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So, Tezzeret notes in his story that "some of his most hated adversaries were ostensibly "on the same side."" as him. This means a lot of planeswalkers have been compleated, potentially, and we need to take a good hard look at Tezzy boy and work out which of my favorite characters are compleated now.

In alphabetical order, every planeswalker Tezzeret has met in canon and how likely they are to be compleated because look this man hates everyone it's not out of the realm of reality for me to assume everyone he's ever met is someone he considers a hated adversary. Not counting the dead* (or Elspeth because she's not compleated **** that never gonna happen).

1: Baltrice. Her fate is unclear, she may still be alive. If it turns out she finally shows up in canon but compleated it's going to be ****ing hilarious but also oh no, buff ork lady...

2: Chandra. I don't know if he hates her necessarily but they have met and fought. She was surprisingly absent during Elspeth's story. But she's also been shown on the good guy side for materials for March of the Machine. Unlikely but, worth thinking about.

3: Jace. This is someone who IS ACTUALLY his most hated adversary... but we know he's leaking Urabrask info to him, so he cannot be taken. So, that's good.

4. Kaito. I don't think he hates this kid much, and introducing him and so quickly killing him off would be weird. He also is actively hunting him however... so. Concerned.

5. Koth. I genuinely don't think Tezzeret cares about him, but worth considering. They've fought on New Phyrexia. We've heard from Jace he's alive, so he might have made those connections through Tezzeret. Probably okay.

6. Liliana Vess. Ohh.... ohohoooo... they hate each other So Much and last we saw of her she was fighting Phyrexia on Dominaria. Winning, but still. In all the ad stuff she's shown alongside Ajani though too... oh nooo are they going to kill Lili ;_;?

No. Very unlikely. Still very scary though.

7. Nissa. I don't think they've met beyond "have fought due to Gatewatch stuff". Probably safe except she IS one of my favorites and it'd be drama for Chandra if she got got.

8. Ob Nixilis. Definitely hate each other. Unsure if they hate that much. Ob's busy on New Capenna, likely not compleated.

9. Ral Zarek. This mother****er. Tezzeret HATES this mother****er. Absolutely a "hated adversary". Last we saw, Ral had gotten his ass pushed in by Tezzeret in a fist fight. It wouldn't be impossible for Ral to try hunting him down some more and getting got. This would make me very sad because I love Ral Zarek. Would be turbo depressing since he just married his boyfriend.

10. Samut. They barely interacted, they "met" in so far as she maybe bopped him in the face back on Amonkhet to stop him feeding Eternals in. I doubt he cares.

11. Tibalt. No one can ever reasonably call Tibalt a hated adversary. He's a nuisance at best. Also absolutely for sure compleated Vorinclex put his seed in him he's already a robot.

12. Venser. They DO despise each other, and his corpse WAS on New Phyrexia, but he shoved his soul into Karn to purify him. If he IS alive, and IS a Phyrexian Walker, that's impressive ****. Also depressing. I have no experience with Venser so this wouldn't make me sad but would make Elspeth sad and I love her so this is definitely like, 80% likely.

13. Vivien Reid. Explicitly an ally. Not compleated.

14. The Wanderer. She does hate Tezzeret for breaking her soul and making her teleport all over forever. Compleating her would be weird though. Unlikely.

So yeah. That's my guesstimations.

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## Personification

Once again, a great summary. I do have a few nitpicks and a ray of hope, though. Also, before I get to that, Elesh Norn is voiced by Gwendolyn Christie playing Lucifer in _Sandman_. You are welcome.

First, the nitpicks. Jodah doesn't say "It  gets easier if you allow yourself to love." He says the opposite. She asked if it gets easier he said "not if you allow yourself to love." I actually see this as him acknowledging the reality of grief and implying that, despite it hurting, he still chooses to allow himself to love. I also think it might be a bit of a nod that, before Freyalise gave him the mental capacity to survive immortality, he would effectively download his memories into a magic mirror and then reupload then with no emotional connection to them, which allowed him to process them easier but wasn't ideal. That same mirror is the one that allows Elspeth to later cast Jaya's Immolating Inferno on the Phyrexian skyship (and presumably up to two other Phyrexians with lower toughness).

The other nitpick is that all of the vignettes were part of the same piece. It was all a letter from Ashiok, starting with "Dearest Elspeth" (which Ashiok uses consistently throughout) and ending with "Yours always, Ashiok". Ashiok knows about all of the things being listed because Ashiok has been inside of Elspeth's head and the heads of most people being discussed (including Norn, in "The Garden of Flesh"). Also, I love that Ashiok is now effectively on team good guy, if only because Ashiok is effectively waging a psyops campaign against Norn because Norn has REALLY juicy nightmares. I also love the fact that, with her supreme Doctor-in-Girl-in-the-Fireplace-What-are-monsters-afraid-of?-ME!-energy, Elspeth is officially at the top of the fear food chain, and this has made Ashiok seemingly fall madly in love with her. 

#Ashpeth

Anyway, the ray of hope is that Tezzeret's comment doesn't necessarily mean that anyone we haven't seen has been Compleated. Alone, Ajani and Tamiyo count as some of Tezzeret's most hated adversaries, and they might be who he was discussing. Plus, Phyrexia in general is, as he said to Karn, neither his nor any of his other bosses' cup of tea, and that also counts.

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## LaZodiac

> Once again, a great summary. I do have a few nitpicks and a ray of hope, though. Also, before I get to that, Elesh Norn is voiced by Gwendolyn Christie playing Lucifer in _Sandman_. You are welcome.
> 
> First, the nitpicks. Jodah doesn't say "It  gets easier if you allow yourself to love." He says the opposite. She asked if it gets easier he said "not if you allow yourself to love." I actually see this as him acknowledging the reality of grief and implying that, despite it hurting, he still chooses to allow himself to love. I also think it might be a bit of a nod that, before Freyalise gave him the mental capacity to survive immortality, he would effectively download his memories into a magic mirror and then reupload then with no emotional connection to them, which allowed him to process them easier but wasn't ideal. That same mirror is the one that allows Elspeth to later cast Jaya's Immolating Inferno on the Phyrexian skyship (and presumably up to two other Phyrexians with lower toughness).
> 
> The other nitpick is that all of the vignettes were part of the same piece. It was all a letter from Ashiok, starting with "Dearest Elspeth" (which Ashiok uses consistently throughout) and ending with "Yours always, Ashiok". Ashiok knows about all of the things being listed because Ashiok has been inside of Elspeth's head and the heads of most people being discussed (including Norn, in "The Garden of Flesh"). Also, I love that Ashiok is now effectively on team good guy, if only because Ashiok is effectively waging a psyops campaign against Norn because Norn has REALLY juicy nightmares. I also love the fact that, with her supreme Doctor-in-Girl-in-the-Fireplace-What-are-monsters-afraid-of?-ME!-energy, Elspeth is officially at the top of the fear food chain, and this has made Ashiok seemingly fall madly in love with her. 
> 
> #Ashpeth
> 
> Anyway, the ray of hope is that Tezzeret's comment doesn't necessarily mean that anyone we haven't seen has been Compleated. Alone, Ajani and Tamiyo count as some of Tezzeret's most hated adversaries, and they might be who he was discussing. Plus, Phyrexia in general is, as he said to Karn, neither his nor any of his other bosses' cup of tea, and that also counts.


You are 10000% correct on that casting.

Ah! My bad! The way the situation was framed was a weird double negative, so I completely botched misreading that. And yeah, that mirror is broken, but I imagine the shards of it he still carries with hold a lotta power. He probably gave some to Jaya, and that's what he got from her, the "one final gift".

... I'll admit I completely did not notice that because that first vignette stuck out in my mind as "oh this is the thing Ajani said to Elspeth before she went to Theros" and I COMPLETELY blanked on it being a thing. Oops! Thanks for the correction, friend.

Also yeah Ashiok falling in love with Elspeth, the nightmare of nightmares, is incredible a swerve for their character. I love it.

Okay so while that IS true, Tezzeret notes that "after tamiyo, they set to work compleating their planeswalker prisoners". While Tamiyo and Ajani may be adversaries of ol Tezzbot, it feels like more has been done than just him. Especially since Ajani was not compleated in that wave after Tamiyo, since we know he got got sometime during DomU. Tibalt is likely one of the other prisoners compleated, but who else...?

----------


## Techwarrior

> I don't know, but I sometimes hate your opinions on this very thread, but I would love to delve into some degenerate control mirrors with you. Trolling people with Teferi 5 and T3feri in MTGA was like the most fun I have had outside of Big Red Control. The former deck around Teferi 5 didnt even have a proper wincon, it was literally just designed around winning microscopic advantages, and either annoying your enemy to death: Just take your enemy wincon. If I **** up I have no wincon, only suffering.


I actually quit playing arena when WotS came out because of 3feri. I had been playing Esper control for about a year or so prior to that, but "lul you actually just aren't allowed to cast your spells" was what it took for me to take my ball and go home to be honest. That said I do love playing control mirrors in formats where 3feri isn't legal. It almost doesn't matter which format at that point, although to be honest, the 4+ color soup piles in Modern and Legacy have me somewhat down on those formats regardless. 

Basically I'm saying that I too, am a lover of Ux control mirrors, and would love the chance to play them with someone.

----------


## LaZodiac

And so we bring our stories to a close...

*Spoiler: BROWAR PAST 5: I'm not crying you're crying*
Show

Episode 5: As Cruel, as necessary. We begin this story at the beginning, in media res. Teferi, Kaya, and Saheeli, at the start of the first proper run of the Temporal Anchor, after months of testing to ensure the time stream would not shatter like it did when Urza tried this. There is a wonderful anecdote of, even now, here, after a month, Kaya still raps on the steel coffin Teferi needs to lay in to do this, to make sure he's okay. He muses about how, even if he does die in this mad attempt to save the world, the new walkers are more human than the old ever were. And so the time scouring begins.

But first, detailing the plan. We the readers know it more or less implicitly, and from some context clues, but this is actually I believe the first time they lay it all out. They are hunting for the exact moment Urza turned on the Sylex, so they know how to use it when the time comes. This is itself a very difficult thing, because the Sylex is a fabled and mysterious artifact, with as many beginnings as it has endings. I'm pretty sure just about every listed beginning and ending is a fan theory, in universe answer, and in setting fate for "the sylex", because way back when, when canon was looser, "the sylex Urza used to destroy the world" showed up in multiple conflicting spots, and was destroyed in each. It's adorable, and extremely fitting.

We then get a quick reminder of all the places Teferi ended up, through the other past stories. I especially like how they make clearer that Teferi intentionally saved Aiwan in Kroog, and that Kaya keeps this a secret. It's, a fun little twist to things. We also get, interspersed, Teferi's reactions to slipping through time like a needle through fabric, the feeling of Kaya's ghostform seeping into him, the fact that diving through time kinda ****s you up. It's fantastic stuff. He realizes and reflects on Urza, and fully realizes why he went to the lengths he went, and feels that steel within him.

Then we get to the moment, and they intersperse bits from the actual Brother's War novel, interspersed with Kaya reading what Teferi is seeing off to Saheeli. The initial triggering of the Sylex knocks Teferi back to the present, but he's found it. He just needs a little... more. So he dives back in one final time, and slows things to a halt so he can properly study it all... and finds nothing. The only answer is to get it from the source. So Teferi slips into place, and lets time resume.

We then get, an incredible little scene. Teferi and Urza, within a void of time- Teferi later compares it to a lake, the proverbial rivers flowing into a still pool before eventually, inevitably, the tributary breaks and the water continues moving, and it's like the lake never even was. And they speak of things; of Urza's future, his struggles, his never ending war. There is a lot of palpable pain and sadness here. We see Urza as he was, the human being. Flawed, but trying. Sarcastic and jaded but clicking into the point immediately, understanding why this must be done... realizing that this means his war, the war that he just finished, the end of everything, was just a beginning to an even greater endless war. There's real, genuine pain here, as we see the final remains of Urza the Human give way to Urza the Planeswalker.

And then the lake breaks, time reasserts itself, and to finish us off we see, laid out before us, the final segment of The Brother's War itself. Re-contextualized, but the same finale we've always known would happen, as it is the one that lead us to where we are now.

This sorta **** always gets me, and I'm not ashamed to admit I almost cried at hearing Urza repeat "Away. I am going... away." with the last of his humanity.



*Spoiler: BROWAR PRESENT 5: All The Men On The Chessboard...*
Show

Chapter 5: Exodus. We focus on Nissa, drawn to Dominaria by Chandra, and her desire to try and amend things. She wants to go back to those younger, naiver days of the Gatewatch. Discussion turned to the REALMBREAKER and how dangerous it is... and what destroying it will accomplish. If it's rooted as deeply as the World Tree on Kaldheim, New Phyrexia may burn with it. Chandra says she's happy about that- and this starts an argument. Nissa aghast at Chandra, Saheeli saying she knows we need to fight but we will NOT fall to bloodlust, and Chandra insisting that it's good actually if Phyrexia died probably- but she doesn't mean like, everyone, and- Nissa interrupts her, snapping, and immediately regretting it. She wants things to go back to how they were... and they likely won't.

Teferi returns from the above story, exhausted. Meeting is over, time to prepare. The plan is to send one wave of Planeswalkers with the Mirran resistance and Urabrask, while another wave stays in the wings to follow up... Chandra, Liliana, and later Wrenn, Saheeli (once she's done prepping Kaladesh) and Jodah (when the REALMBREAKER llinks things, most likely) will be part of that. Nissa, Tyvar (the ever-allergic to shirts), Jace, Vraska (in bitchin' rad Golgaria war armour), Elspeth, Kaito and the Emperor... and, of all ****ing people, Lukka the nasty stinky cat man! Preparations are under way...

Nissa takes this moment to try and talk with Chandra, trying to understand the rage she's feeling. She never mentioned Jaya was dead... and that was the final straw. As much as she hates to admit it, as much as she feels she's a monster for thinking it, Chandra wants Phyrexia to suffer and die. She wants it all to burn to char. Nissa counters that Ajani is part of them now- a cruel twist of the knife that makes Chandra sink in on herself. Nissa lets her be, hoping to apologize later...

Then the Phyrexians attack, linking back to Elspeth's story yesterday. We learn WHY Chandra wasn't mentioned (she went home to prep for being wave 2) which makes me very happy. Less happy- Nissa suffering hours. The fighting is intense, even with Wrenn's help. The Phyrexian forces are relentless, even as Elspeth and Jodah stem the flow. Norn's elite shock-troops, the white phyrexian knights and their angel leader, march upon the tower and it's too much. It is attrition, and they are winning. She calls upon Dominaria to aid them... and Gaea refuses. Rejects her, completely. So Nissa pulls her sword and decides to handle this herself.

The fighting continues- Nissa targeting the angel by casting Giant Growth on Seven and then getting yeeted at the angel to take it down, but ultimately this just slows them down. It's an oncoming wave, that they cannot stand against. So Nissa tries, again, to reach Gaea... and does so. The hate within Gaea's heart is so strong, so furious, so rotten, that it leaves Nissa stunned. It is intense. They talk, Gaea shows her the truth of it; DomU is still going even if our heroes are no longer involved. The Phyrexians continue unabated. Gaea cannot be everywhere at once, so why here? Nissa says this is fine- let her die then, if that is to be her fate. But let her die fighting.

This meets Gaea's approval. It fills her with life and memory. Gaea's avengers storm the field, assisting- Nissa knows that many will die for this, but it must be done. The angelic leader, broken and battered, confronts her... and Nissa throttles her with vines, speaking through to whatever agent holds the angel's sway, asking if they feel the pain it feels. Wrenn tries to stop her- this is a streak of cruelity uncommon in her. Maybe it is now, but Nissa used to be a kinda bad person. She used to have no qualms about this. And Gaea's reminded her of that rage. Reminded her of what Emrakul said, what Kefnut divined- before she woven his leylines into her snare, a trap that never sprung but was still prepared. Crush them. Do not allow the world to act upon you. Know in your heart, in Gaea's heart, that your beloved ones have been taken by this corruption and that in order to win, the blood of friend and foe alike will be spilled.

Be the hand that moves the pieces. The angel is crushed in Nissa's grasp.

We return to the tower. Everyone is gearing up. Teferi's... kinda stuck in the Temporal Anchor, fading away (or should that be phasing away...?). But there's only so much they are able to do. It's time to go.

Brief epilogue: Teferi finds himself Somewhere, Somewhen. Footprints in the sand show him that life exists here, wherever here he. He walks off, to find it. I'm like 90% sure this is Zhalfir and he's fallen into his home.



And that's the story of The Brother's War (the set).

I joked, at the start of this, that we'd read these, go "damn these are good, wish it coulda been better" and then moved on.

It... it was so much more than I expected. This was so ****ing good you guys. I'm not sure how many of you are engaged on the story as the like, two of us who are are, but please. If you do like the story, especially the old lore... they treated us right.

----------


## Spore

I started playing Magic during Time Spiral-ish times and back then I thought the Battlemages are the PINNACLE of game design; or in my 12 year old words:

"Three colors in one deck? I have enough trouble paying for my goblin rush deck." We played aggro tribal mirrors mostly, because our friend's black Avatar of Woe deck felt so oppressive and OP.

Somehow DMU does not invoke that kind of wonderment. Not because I like Magic less, but the mirrored card cycles aren't truly mirrored I feel. Battlemages were all wizards and shamans. Having five different tribes for the multikickers feels off.

----------


## RayGallade

> I joked, at the start of this, that we'd read these, go "damn these are good, wish it coulda been better" and then moved on.
> 
> It... it was so much more than I expected. This was so ****ing good you guys. I'm not sure how many of you are engaged on the story as the like, two of us who are are, but please. If you do like the story, especially the old lore... they treated us right.


I will readily admit that I haven't actively read the Magic story in some time, but I always look forward to your summaries so that I can stay aware of what is going on in the multiverse. Perhaps once I have enough time I will sit down and read through this one.

----------


## LaZodiac

> I will readily admit that I haven't actively read the Magic story in some time, but I always look forward to your summaries so that I can stay aware of what is going on in the multiverse. Perhaps once I have enough time I will sit down and read through this one.


Ah dang, I appreciate it.

And I do recommend it. As someone who has a great affection for The Brother's War, this was basically as perfect as one could make it. Everyone's biggest fears that I saw, throughout the entire lead up, would be that they hold back. That they'd change it, in some way.

Instead we got Urza snapping at Teferi about how he needs to get on with the point because this is either the most important thing he'll ever hear or the least, and then gruffily admitting that if Teferi was really his student he failed him- but in that gruff, familiar tone that Teferi knows is intended as a compliment, and that's such a core character trait of Urza... as is the heart wrenching description of the man, just before the Sylex Blast happens; "Tears. Lots of tears. Urza never cried. He's so . . . human, here."

The fifth past-story basically fully encompasses everything I love about Urza Planeswalker, and god I cannot stop going over this story in my head. One last exchange that I just, really need to specifically write out, because it captures the heart and soul to me.




> "Some would probably call you a god." Teferi thought back to his school days. "Others would call you a curse. I called you my teacher; most know you as 'Planeswalker.'"
> 
> Urza could not smile anymorehis skull had blackened and crumbled, his shoulders and ribs burned to ash. And yet his voice was strong as when he was whole.
> 
> "There's nothing I can do to change that, is there?" Urza asked. He sounded exhausted, not plaintive. Fatigued as a man gone decades without sleep.

----------


## enderlord99

I've mentioned before how much I like Kaya, the Inexorable's ult, but did you know that it allows a certain card from _Dominaria United_ to effectively turn Pact into a *truly*-free counterspell with delayed cantrip?

----------


## LaZodiac

> I've mentioned before how much I like Kaya, the Inexorable's ult, but did you know that it allows a certain card from _Dominaria United_ to effectively turn Pact into a *truly*-free counterspell with delayed cantrip?


Oh, that's cool!

On the mechanical side of things by the way, they revealed some fun cards. Mishra and Urza have a vertical cycle from Uncommon to Mythic of... themselves, throughout the ages. As youths under Tocasia, in their respective adulthoods, and then at the apex of the Brother War. Adding to their commander decks that are them at the height of their power during said war, and we've got four cards for the brothers!

We also have a new mechanic: Prototype! Cast a card fore its prototype cost and it comes in as a smaller, scrappier, coloured version of a big nasty colourless artifact. It's a fascinating mechanical and very good and oops I dropped all my flicker spells on the battlefield time to play 7/5s for 3 mana.

----------


## Emmerlaus

I feel like the new spoiled Teferi card is going to be overpriced. It seem stupiditly strong. And a add-on to any wheel decks... and so tempted to buy it anyway for my Minn, Willy Illusionnist EDH deck

----------


## Spore

> It seem stupiditly strong.


Not really. Outside of Commander it is slow enough to only work in the most pillow-forty things. And in Commander if anyone outside of cEDH comes to the table with a card that reads "Ultimate: Pack everything but one of your game pieces, but stay at the table" I'll happily concede and go home. Short: It's not that big a deal in 1 on 1 and a fun killer in EDH.

----------


## Personification

> Not really. Outside of Commander it is slow enough to only work in the most pillow-forty things. And in Commander if anyone outside of cEDH comes to the table with a card that reads "Ultimate: Pack everything but one of your game pieces, but stay at the table" I'll happily concede and go home. Short: It's not that big a deal in 1 on 1 and a fun killer in EDH.


The ult isn't even that extreme. It's a single-target cyclonic rift, which, while annoying and powerful, isn't exactly game breaking. Also, the card costs five and only gains loyalty when you draw, so in commander it might have trouble surviving until your next turn, and if it does you still have to draw a ton of cards. It's good, but probably not busted in half.

----------


## LaZodiac

> The ult isn't even that extreme. It's a single-target cyclonic rift, which, while annoying and powerful, isn't exactly game breaking. Also, the card costs five and only gains loyalty when you draw, so in commander it might have trouble surviving until your next turn, and if it does you still have to draw a ton of cards. It's good, but probably not busted in half.


You're probably right but also I think about the time a friend of mine played his monoblue commander deck and ended up drawing his entire library like twice over during the game and thinking about how he could ult every turn if he wanted.

----------


## enderlord99

Cyclonic Rift returns to hand; the new ult mostly returns to library.  I'm not sure how big of a difference that is, but it definitely is a difference.

----------


## Personification

> You're probably right but also I think about the time a friend of mine played his monoblue commander deck and ended up drawing his entire library like twice over during the game and thinking about how he could ult every turn if he wanted.


Sure, but "Combos with ancestral" isn't exactly a justification for calling a card busted. I'm not saying it isn't powerful, I'm just saying that it isn't game breaking. If you are drawing over twelve cards per turn cycle consistently, literally anything is payoff, and a five mana Planeswalker which isn't adding much to that number isn't why you are the threat.

That said, it is a good card, and I like that it doesn't look like it would be the most miserable thing ever to play against.

----------


## Androgeus

> You're probably right but also I think about the time a friend of mine played his monoblue commander deck and ended up drawing his entire library like twice over during the game and thinking about how he could ult every turn if he wanted.


If your opponent is drawing their entire deck, youve probably got more problems than a board wipe that only affects 1 player

----------


## Eldan

> I started playing Magic during Time Spiral-ish times and back then I thought the Battlemages are the PINNACLE of game design; or in my 12 year old words:
> 
> "Three colors in one deck? I have enough trouble paying for my goblin rush deck." We played aggro tribal mirrors mostly, because our friend's black Avatar of Woe deck felt so oppressive and OP.
> 
> Somehow DMU does not invoke that kind of wonderment. Not because I like Magic less, but the mirrored card cycles aren't truly mirrored I feel. Battlemages were all wizards and shamans. Having five different tribes for the multikickers feels off.


OH man, I remember those times. We also had a friend who had _an_ Avatar of Woe and we all hated that card. Like, it can just kill everything how can you stop that. He of course had only one because no one ever opened a second one in a pack and buying singles is cheating.

----------


## Spore

> The ult isn't even that extreme. It's a single-target cyclonic rift, which, while annoying and powerful, isn't exactly game breaking. Also, the card costs five and only gains loyalty when you draw, so in commander it might have trouble surviving until your next turn, and if it does you still have to draw a ton of cards. It's good, but probably not busted in half.


I overlooked "nonland" in nonland permanent. I thought, they Tefers is just sending your whole board into the deck. My bad.




> OH man, I remember those times. We also had a friend who had _an_ Avatar of Woe and we all hated that card. Like, it can just kill everything how can you stop that. He of course had only one because no one ever opened a second one in a pack and buying singles is cheating.


Of course I never realized my goblin deck would have had a HAYDAY with such a deck (of course my friend also only had a single Avatar, what are we? Rich adults?) simply because I never realized how to pilot a hasty aggro deck and depended too much on my Reckless One (*/* where * = number of goblins) which pulled the deck into midrange (and made it vulnerable to removal which surprisingly a black deck has plenty of).

----------


## Techwarrior

Does anyone happen to know where I could find that interview with Melissa De'Tora and Gavin Verhey where they were talking about how Oko went wrong in playtesting?

----------


## Fable Wright

> Does anyone happen to know where I could find that interview with Melissa De'Tora and Gavin Verhey where they were talking about how Oko went wrong in playtesting?


It wasn't Gavin, that's probably why you got the search terms messy.

----------


## Techwarrior

> It wasn't Gavin, that's probably why you got the search terms messy.


Thanks so much. I thought it was on a good morning magic episode. Good thing I didn't go looking through the archive for that.

----------


## enderlord99

What do y'all think of this custom card design?

I suspect it's probably really strong, but I don't know for sure, and would like feedback.

----------


## Androgeus

> What do y'all think of this custom card design?
> 
> I suspect it's probably really strong, but I don't know for sure, and would like feedback.


I think you are too focused on making a complement to Lich's Mastery than actually making a good card.

----------


## enderlord99

> I think you are too focused on making a complement to Lich's Mastery than actually making a good card.


Probably true.

----------


## Emmerlaus

So, if you haven't heard, CardConjurer, one of the best sites for making custom magic cards, has been shut down after getting a C&D from wotc. I cant give you a link to the tweets but look up Imkyle4815, Kyle Burton. Very sad day.

I think it will have the opposite effect however. People will feel even less remorse to proxy!

----------


## enderlord99

> I've figured for a while that that there was going to be a card with the typeline "Legendary Planeswalker - Norn" but, after giving it some thought, I have an even more specific prediction to make:
> 
> 
> It's either that or exactly double that.  Calling it now.  Screenshot this.


*Spoiler*
Show

I was incorrect.

----------


## LaZodiac

I couldn't watch the stream because my new workplace is a bit more strnigent about things like that, so here is a less than meaty recap than I'd prefer courtesy of one of the like three vorthos here.

NEW PHYREXIA: ALL WILL BE ONE

Elesh Norn's card in the cycle is here, a nasty effect.

Slobad and Venser's corpses have in fact been compleated. No spark for Venser for obvious reasons.

Sheoldred is seemingly choosing now to try and traitor Mommy Norn. Dumbass.

There will be ten planeswalkers in the set, each with a nasty and cool compleated art varient that is NOT CANON... but five of whom ARE getting compleated or are compleated in the story.

These walkers are as follows: Jace, Kaito, Kaya, Koth (whose card is rad and we see it), Lukka, Nahiri, Nissa, Tyver, Vraska, and the Wandering Emperor.

Place your bets now, folks. I've got a lot of potential pain in this batch... I'll write my own deathpool later though.

----------


## enderlord99

> Elesh Norn's card in the cycle is here, a nasty effect.


Yup.  Not as nasty as what I predicted way-back-when, though.

----------


## Emmerlaus

> I couldn't watch the stream because my new workplace is a bit more strnigent about things like that, so here is a less than meaty recap than I'd prefer courtesy of one of the like three vorthos here.
> 
> NEW PHYREXIA: ALL WILL BE ONE
> 
> Elesh Norn's card in the cycle is here, a nasty effect.
> 
> Slobad and Venser's corpses have in fact been compleated. No spark for Venser for obvious reasons.
> 
> Sheoldred is seemingly choosing now to try and traitor Mommy Norn. Dumbass.
> ...


Easy if you ask me!

Lukka, Jace, Tyver and Kaito are ... ahem, "pale" and all mens. Those 4 are getting compleated. Then I would would either add Nahiri or Vreska in there cause its not as new as the other planeswalker and because the art I saw of their "compleated" version is sick/awesome looking so Im biased toward those two. 

Beside, I wanna see Sorin vs Compleated Nahiri fight lol!

----------


## LaZodiac

> because the art I saw of their "compleated" version is sick/awesome looking so Im biased toward those two. 
> 
> Beside, I wanna see Sorin vs Compleated Nahiri fight lol!


Right I should clarify, all ten have compleated art as well as part of the showcase frames but it's all what-ifs.

I'm not gonna engage with the rest of your comment beyond "Kaito is Asian".

----------


## Dienekes

Hmm Kaito and the Emp are both new and from a popularized take on a setting that I think people liked. Now I personally didn't read any of that one because I didn't care. But I'm willing to bet they hadn't completed whatever narrative arc they got. But I think from the cards they were childhood friends? Making one of them compleated would be some nice added drama. Which one though? I'm tempted to say Emp because all mono-White authority figures in MTG either turn evil or die. I don't know how much of an actual leader Emp is, since I believe her backstory had something to do with being forced ever to wander or something. So I'm not sure if that counts. If that's the case, that she's not the one who really handles the empire's normal activities I'm going to bet on Kaito biting it of the two.

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if Jayce gets compleated. Now a gut reaction amongst fans might be that Jayce is too big, too important for that to happen to him without it being the big smashing ending of series. Which I don't think this is. We still haven't really even found out what the Phyrexians are doing, really. We can just make some educated guesses based on what they're up to behind the scenes. And the heroes definitely don't know. My guess is more the arc will be figuring that out and delaying it for some time. But because of that, I actually think WotC could be pulling a double bluff and actually doing it. Especially since with Chandra's vow to figure out a way to reverse compleation they have an out should they want to bring him back.

I'd be ok watching Nissa bite it. Don't much like her. More easy drama for Chandra if they want to go that route later on. But I doubt they'll compleate two of the original Lorwyn Five in one go. Of the two, I think I'd rather see Jayce go. I like him more than Nissa, but, I think him getting offed would end up more interesting.

Koth getting compleated would be a very darkest moment blow to the resistance against Phyrexia. But there's also a part of me that thinks them showing the reveal art of him as a Phyrexian by way of example means it's not him. Up in the air about it though.

How popular was Tyvar? Honestly he didn't leave much an impression on me reading through Kaldheim. If he left as little an impression on everyone else as he left on me, I can see him getting the axe. If he was popular, I don't think he will. New blood and all.

Nahiri seem bouncing back and forth between becoming increasingly horrible and putting aside her rage fueled blood oaths of murder to fight against a common cause. Seems kind of poorly written just floating off to do what is needed. She might get compleated. 

Kaya I think is getting positioned as a new leader figure for team good guys. I don't think she will get compleated here. But, I'd be very amused to be proven wrong.

That leaves what, Lukka and Vraska? Maybe Vraska? Lukka has his whole plot with the Oriq still going and whatever exchange of ideas he made. If Jayce doesn't get compleated then he gets to be a sad boy over his ex-girlfriend. If he does then they can maybe do something about them finding each other among Phyrexians or whatever nonsense. But more importantly her dangling thread is the blackmail by Lazav, which this would effectively solve anyway.

Because everything I said above is a little wishy-washy I think Im just going to rank those I think will get compleated from most likely to least likely. 

Jayce, [Kaito/Emp], Vraska, Nahiri, Tyvar, Nissa, Lukka, [Kaito/Emp], Kaya, Koth

Those paired together because I think it will be one or the other, but not both.

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## LaZodiac

> Hmm Kaito and the Emp are both new and from a popularized take on a setting that I think people liked. Now I personally didn't read any of that one because I didn't care. But I'm willing to bet they hadn't completed whatever narrative arc they got. But I think from the cards they were childhood friends? Making one of them compleated would be some nice added drama. Which one though? I'm tempted to say Emp because all mono-White authority figures in MTG either turn evil or die. I don't know how much of an actual leader Emp is, since I believe her backstory had something to do with being forced ever to wander or something. So I'm not sure if that counts. If that's the case, that she's not the one who really handles the empire's normal activities I'm going to bet on Kaito biting it of the two.
> 
> You know, I wouldn't be surprised if Jayce gets compleated. Now a gut reaction amongst fans might be that Jayce is too big, too important for that to happen to him without it being the big smashing ending of series. Which I don't think this is. We still haven't really even found out what the Phyrexians are doing, really. We can just make some educated guesses based on what they're up to behind the scenes. And the heroes definitely don't know. My guess is more the arc will be figuring that out and delaying it for some time. But because of that, I actually think WotC could be pulling a double bluff and actually doing it. Especially since with Chandra's vow to figure out a way to reverse compleation they have an out should they want to bring him back.
> 
> I'd be ok watching Nissa bite it. Don't much like her. More easy drama for Chandra if they want to go that route later on. But I doubt they'll compleate two of the original Lorwyn Five in one go. Of the two, I think I'd rather see Jayce go. I like him more than Nissa, but, I think him getting offed would end up more interesting.
> 
> Koth getting compleated would be a very darkest moment blow to the resistance against Phyrexia. But there's also a part of me that thinks them showing the reveal art of him as a Phyrexian by way of example means it's not him. Up in the air about it though.
> 
> How popular was Tyvar? Honestly he didn't leave much an impression on me reading through Kaldheim. If he left as little an impression on everyone else as he left on me, I can see him getting the axe. If he was popular, I don't think he will. New blood and all.
> ...


We actually know pretty directly what the Phyrexians are doing, as of the end of the Brother War present day story. They've gotten enough information to surmize, as we readers have, that the Phyrexians intend to link the multiverse with their own World Tree, the REALMBREAKER, that will allow Phyrexia to easily invade every plane in the multiverse.

Also, on the note of Koth that I was not able to update in time: They have officially said in the stream that Koth IS immune, because of the injection from Melira, so he's Safe from compleation, so... that's a thing.

So, my deathpool time!

======

*JACE:* Jace is a character I like pretty decently. He's a cool, flawed hero who has been with the series the entire way, and one of it not the only people who knows Bolas is actually alive. His ongoing relationship with Vraska is or was one of the most popular "things" in Magic for a time. Compleating him would cut off a fair amount of stuff, and be really impactful- especially since he and Ajani are often considered the faces of Magic. If both got got, anyone can get got.

I'm not sure on what odds I give it, but... it's decent to high. The whole Realmbreaker thing is going to change the multiverse entirely, and having "Magic's Main Character" end with the old world makes sense.

*KAITO:* Kaito is a fun character, but his arc has literally just begun- he and the Wandering Emperor were childhood friends and his entire character motivation has beenn finding a way to save her from her weird spark- the answer to which was taken by Jin, and it along with his studying of Kami is how they're able to compleat walkers in the first place. He and the Wanderer need to get their revenge on Jin and stop the Phyrexian's ability to compleat walkers for the finale... which would also mean the Emperor's problem is still going.

His chances? I'm gonna say no straight up, Kaito's not getting got. Young, fresh faced hero who must journey the multiverse to find some cure to the Wandering Emperor's roaming soul? That's an absolutely great way to give some variety to the plans and introduce a new quote-unquote "main character of magic".

*KAYA:* Kaya is a hard one. She is, as has been said above, been given a sort of leader role vibe. She is growing as a character, is very cool, a huge fan favorite, and one I personally love a lot. Unfortunately, her biggest plot hook (fixing her home plane) is tied up with the ending to War of the Spark Forsaken, so is likely off limits... and since she was made to kill the Obzedat and literally nothing else, well...

Unfortunately I think it's likely to be Kaya. All of the above, plus the fact that she's a fan favorite of mine, like Ajani and Tamiyo, means she's doomed. I'll also make the called shot of "gets compleated" instead of "was compleated already", since otherwise our heroes would not have made it this far at all.

*KOTH:* Explicitly immune. Whether this means he'll DIE, instead of being compleated, is another question entirely, but given the presentation of him being The One Who Lived, Elspeth's sole remaining friend who still draws breath, just as he promised so long ago... he's fine.

*LUKKA:* Lukka is a nasty-man villain that most people hate in the way they like someone like the stabby murder man from Batman. He's a bastard (affectionate) and has some plot hooks of interest (the mysterious voice ****ing with the crystals on Ikoria, the cult of college drop outs on Arcavios) but overall, I can see him getting got pretty easily.

I'm going to give Lukka high odds. He's someone who genuinely hates other people, so him volunteering to help here is suspect. He's basically a slithering doom dragon man for these modern ten titans, so him being pre-compleated would make sense, too.

*NAHIRI:* Everyone's favorite "discussions about this character are banned because people won't shut up about the discourse". Her character writing is actually really good (and Seanan's newest comic involving her is excellent, give it a look!) and her helping against Phyrexia makes sense.

Does she get compleated, though? I'm... unsure. I'd put it at the lower end of things. It'd take a ****ing lot to put her down on the Phyrexian side in the first place, and while it could be cool to have Sorin vs Compleat Nahiri, I genuinely don't think it'll happen.

*NISSA:* My favorite character of the bunch. Been with us forever. Perfect elf child who has grown so much over the years. I want her to reunite with Chandra, I want that spark to rekindle. Nissa has so many plot hooks; the growing reminder that Emrakul Chose Her, the fact that Gaia has now Chosen Her too. But the thing is, people would ****in' riot if this happened. Chandra and Nissa not getting together fractured the fandom harder than all of the faults of the War of the Spark books combined.

So how does this affect their chances? Well... sadly I think all of the above taken into account, she's going to get got... but NOT fall to the oil. She'll be compleated, but she'll still be her inside- which we know is true of all the compleated walker thanks to Ajani and Tezzeret's story- and Chandra will help break her out of it, and there'll be a really sad moment of self sacrifice emulating the giant lesbian fire laser that killed Ulamog and Kozilek that started all of this mess.

This would hurt me severely, so please no? Please?

*TYVER:* I like him a lot, and he's such a delightful dumbass with the power to absorb things into his body to use their materials to fight. He's got a fair number of plot hooks, and is just a really cool character, even if he is the biggest himbo to ever exist.

It is with great sadness that I'll mark him as very likely to get compleated, though. His powers make him so vulnerable to the oil, and his mentality is a norse-warrior-plane inspired "I am alive to die in a glorious battle!" so he's gonna dive right ****ing in.

*VRASKA:* Vraska is a big fan favorite, and a big favorite of mine, but her plot hooks are all mostly tied to Jace and Ravnica- though with some Ixalan there too! There could be a lot to do with her if say, Jace died, and it made her realize that conquest of Ravnica doesn't matter. It'd be part of the Golgari cycle of death and rebirth if she got got, compleated the current large chunk of it, and was destroyed to be replaced with the new leadership.

But, I think, odds wise... Jace has one over on her, due to the symbolism of it. Vraska is safer than him, but still up there, and I don't think they'll do both- though it would be cute if they both got got and that brought them together for one final dance.

*WANDERING EMPEROR:* Like with Kaito, she's a new character, fresh faced, and very well loved by everyone, including me (which, as a reminder, means they're likely to be in danger). Her story has ties to Phyrexia and Tezzeret, and like with Kaito could go on even if they were destroyed. I don't think she's very likely... except.

If she gets got and Kaito doesn't, it makes his story more bittersweat and perhaps interesting. Hunting down his compleated friend, who warps across the multiverse, one of the last Phyrexian's... still doing what she do (showing up, killing ****, leaving), but with a sharper, oil'd edge to it. I could see something being made of this!

So, with that all said and done... my deathpool iiiis...

*JACE, KAYA, LUKKA, NISSA, TYVER*

May god help us all.

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## Fable Wright

> So, with that all said and done... my deathpool iiiis...
> 
> *JACE, KAYA, LUKKA, NISSA, TYVER*
> 
> May god help us all.


There was a leak.
*Spoiler: Three revealed compleations*
Show

[IMG="https://i.redd.it/9y4yxdq7t06a1.jpg"]https://i.redd.it/9y4yxdq7t06a1.jpg[/IMG]

The numbering implies no mono-red compleated walkers and only one Black compleated walker.

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## Emmerlaus

> There was a leak.
> *Spoiler: Three revealed compleations*
> Show
> 
> [IMG="https://i.redd.it/9y4yxdq7t06a1.jpg"]https://i.redd.it/9y4yxdq7t06a1.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> The numbering implies no mono-red compleated walkers and only one Black compleated walker.


*Spoiler: Considering the spoilers*
Show



My last comment was very cynical... Sorry about that.

And yet, I was right about Jace being compleated! He is even holding that new Street Capenna weapon that change planeswalker into creature. That detail alone convinced me that he was going to be compleated. Lukka is a given to be compleated as well but mostly because of what we know of his character and how its not a loss if he is compleated.

As for the spoilers go, Im very disappointed Nissa couldn't be spared. It hurts, not going to lie. Not surprised, since they pull out of Chandra/Nissa romance. Feels like a way to bury it for good on their end.

I WISH Nahiri would get compleated though. Would have being freaking awesome to have her and Sorin match up.

Ok, so... Jace, Vreska and Nissa are considered confirmed at this point for me. Not surprised they are sacrificing the old characters to give place to new ones. Still hurt for what they did to Odric to be honest but that's not the same I guess.

I'll put my last two bet on Lukka and Tyver. LaZodiac explained well why its most probably him next and his argumentation seem solid. I really should try to find those online stories again and give it a shot but I have like 4 books to read at home that are begging me to start or finish them LOL!  :Small Red Face:

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## enderlord99

It's a common pattern for me that whenever I think "I've shown off enough; I'll swing for lethal next round, and see how much overkill I've built up" my opponent concedes in the half-round window between my deciding that and my actually doing it.

I find this mildly funny, but also disappointing.  The pillowfort experience be like that.

EDIT:  It's not a pure pillowfort deck.  It's a deck with a lot of different concepts mashed together.  However, it _feels_ halfway between pillowfort and manaless dredge (even though it is very much *not* manaless)

EDIT AGAIN:  Tyvar is probably safe, because he only has one card so far; they (hopefully) wouldn't have him get got _that_ fast.

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## DrakeRaids

For those interested; a large leak of rares accidently being placed in Dominaria Remastered draft boosters has resulted in us having now seen all the rare uncompleated planeswalkers, allowing us to deduce the others from process of elimination.


*Spoiler: Who got got* 
Show

Uncompleated: Koth, Kaito, Wanderer, Tyvar, Kaya
Compleated: Jace, Vraska, Nissa, Nahiri, Lukka

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## enderlord99

Bold (and unlikely) prediction: the next Wrenn will not be "Wrenn and Eight" but rather

*Spoiler*
Show

"Wrenn and Worldbreaker"

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## LaZodiac

News today!

Phyrexian Script! They've given us the Alphabet! This is a big win for me specifically because it makes my girlfriend happy. There's also new art for Atraxa and probably a new card for her, which also makes my girlfriend happy. That's going to be a running theme of this set.

Many art of Phyrexia, showing how beautiful and serene it's become. Ajani in full Norn regalia fighting Elspeth, art of a compleated Tibalt being throttled by Tyver.

Lukka is our first confirmed compleated of the five who are getting got, so that's one point for me. Neat! The nasty-man has become nastier.

Near I'm aware that's it for official reveals.

CORRECTION: There are two stories. I'll read them later and make my write ups. New job has less free time.

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