# Forum > Comics > The Order of the Stick >  MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic

## Grey_Wolf_c

*WARNING*: This Thread *WILL* contain spoilers.
Smallprint: If you are unwilling to hear what MitD might be, or segments from the published books (specially SoD) then this is not a thread for you.
Everyone else: don't bother spoilering or hiding that stuff in this thread. It is what we are here for

*ATTENTION:* Newcomers, please read:
*Spoiler*
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This thread has, over the last 500+ pages, accumulated a lot of knowledge about MitD. However, you don't need to read the whole thread (and the previous ones) to get up to speed. So long as you are reasonably familiar with these first five posts, you can jump right in, with no need to read more than the last few pages. On the other hand, please don't be surprised if your insight has been proposed before.

For relevant MitD canon and in-depth analysis of central MitD scenes, check section 1For specific characteristics of MitD, check section 2To see all suggestions so far (and particularly, if your idea has been mentioned before), check section 3Thread rules and FAQ, check section 4
If you want to propose a new creature, consider using the following question template:
1) How did [insert suggestion here] punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt [insert suggestion here]?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize [insert suggestion here]?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing [insert suggestion here]?
5) How did [insert suggestion here] teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?

*Section 1: General Information**Section 1a: Directly from Rich*
*Spoiler*
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Rich's Words on MitD*Spoiler*
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> I've been imagining the scene for MITD's eventual reveal for like nine years now





> The reveal is a crucial part of the story and it will happen when it's time for it to happen.





> So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]I now know exactly when and why the monster will reveal itself, too ... don't expect it any time soon, though. Sorry. There's a lot of story left, and that little tidbit will need to wait to close to the end. 
> I will say this much: It is possible to guess. 
> That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun  for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
> I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.





> [O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.





> A lot of people have asked me whether there is any actual answer to the mystery of the Monster in the Darkness that could possibly satisfy after so many years of wondering and guessing and weighing characteristics against existing monsters and otherwise just generally thinking about it.
> The answer to that question is yes. Yes, there is.





> The Monster in the Darkness plays an important role in this scene [Tower scene - ed] -- perhaps the first time it has ever done so. Prior to this, the creature existed mostly as comedy relief for Xykon's team. Sure, Redcloak and Xykon talked about how powerful they thought it was, but we never actually got to see it in action. Its childlike persona had likely led many readers to feel that he wasn't a real threat... and that needed to change. And so, I had the opportunity for the monster to display a little of its power without giving too much away by encountering Miko.
> 
> This was specifically necessary because of the scene I had planned for later, when Haley and Belkar need to retrieve Roy's dead body from the monster's tea party. I wanted there to be no doubt that the monster was a real threat when they encountered it. Moreover I wanted to explore the idea that the monster itself isn't really aware of all its capabilities. It tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails. It doesn't know it can cause an earthquake by stomping until a demon roach tells it so.





> [Question: has anyone out there made a guess or come to the wrong conclusion but made you think thats better than what it really is, even for a second?]
> No, because if he was something else then it wouldnt fit everything that is going to happen and has already happened. Its not a guessing game I added to the strip just for extracurricular fun and games, its part of the story. Theres no answer thats better than what he is because everything written for the last 15 years has been written with that answer in mind.


Notes: Strip 100 came out Sep 2, 2004, so no creature first published after that time can be considered."It is possible to guess." Any number of people have jumped to the conclusion that it means that MitD must be a famous or iconic creature. The phrase warrants no such conclusion. Instead, all it says is that MitD exists listed somewhere outside OotS - nothing more and nothing less. As such, the iconic status of an idea, or lack thereof, is of no weight whatsoever when considering its fitness as MitD's species."someone will figure it out": related to the above, it specifies that what Rich means by "guess" is not "throwing darts while blindfolded" type of guess, but a rational, follow the clues to a conclusion process. "A potted plant that was eaten and spat out by the Snarl, giving it eyes, a horrible appearance, great strength and the ability to teleport, and look, it can be guessed- I just did!" might fit the first meaning, but not the second.

Rich's Words on Fidelity to D&D Rules*Spoiler*
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> I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time.


Notes:
Rich has made mistakes with the powers a character can have (Tsukiko's extra school), but has admitted they are mistakes. The fact he admits it is one, in addition to this quote, indicates that Rich does not routinely give characters powers they wouldn't normally have. In addition, MitD's guessing game would require him to be more careful, not less, about what abilities and powers it displays, such as immunity to mind control.

Published Canon*Spoiler*
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Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, when they capture MitD: 


> Monocle: "My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!"
> Jenkins: "Unbelievable!"
> Monocle: "Well, that will surely fetch a fine price."
> Jenkins: "Indeed!"
> Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."
> Jenkins: "Quite!"
> Monocle: "One-in-a-lifetime catch, Jenkins[...]"


Circus, when the public looks upon MitD:



> Human male: "Oh my gods..."
> Human Male: "It's horrible!"
> Human Female: "And yet... beautiful!"
> Human Female Child: "Mommy, I feel funny looking at it"
> Human Male: "Blerrch!" (throwing up)
> Human Male in wizard's clothing: "I've never seen anything like it!" 
> Goblin Female Child: "Wooooooo!"
> Goblin Male Child: "YEAH!"
> Rest of the public:
> ...


RedCloak, admitting he knows what MitD is:



> I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted.


Xykon's first look at MitD:



> "My you're one ugly sonofabitch, aren't you?"


Xykon's wording of the mind-controlling spell on MitD:



> "And if Redcloak ever betrays me, you will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears."


Nature of the darkness around MitD:



> Xykon: Did you see him yet?
> RedCloak: He's permanently shrouded in magical darkness. How exactly was I supposed to "see him yet"?


MitD enjoying the sunshine:



> MitD: Oh man, I love the jungle! The sun, the blue skies, the fresh air






*Section 1b: The Circus Scene**Spoiler*
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The circus scene is, as befits the most MitD-centric moment in the comic, full of clues:The public's reactions: note they are not fear, but disgust. Vomiting, queasy faces and exclamations of ugliness do not match reactions of people scared (that would be brown pants, yellow pools under the stands, and attempts to run away).MitD's Actions: none. it is quite explicitly told he is doing nothing. Activated abilities thus are unlikely to explain this sceneRecognition: The show depends on MitD not being recognisable (billed as such), and this aspect reinforced with the guy in robes saying he's never seen anything like MitD before.

*Section 1c: The Escape**Spoiler*
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Link to the scene It can't be dimension door or blink because those spells have pityable ranges. Teleport and Greater Teleport in the standard rules require the caster to go along with the other subjects of the spell. We have seen teleport work this way in OOTS here and here, and also here we get to see two teleports work this way. In fact there, there are two casters, presumably one divine (raise dead) and one arcane (teleport). Then Soul Spliced V casts (presumably) Teleport and travels along too (though we don't actually see the spell cast, just the resultant "pop"). Finally when we see Epic Teleport, even then the caster (and his spliced spirits) go along for the ride. So although it doesn't absolutely prove that Rich insists the caster always goes along when they Teleport, it really seems to suggest that is the way it works in OOTS, which is the standard D&D rules. Teleport also requires the caster to know the destination, although when that is not the case, a lucky (i.e. plot-induced) roll in the missed teleportation table could have delivered V & O'Chul to the right place anyway. 
It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor/lock cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box, since the visual effect is a green aura and coloring that is not present on either, but MitD himself may have been hit by the stray (Quickened) Dimensional Anchor cast by V during the preceding battle.In the Scruf and Tumble short story (in GDGU), the carbuncle befriended by Mr. Scruffy teleported (likely with a SU-type Dimension Door) him without going along, suggesting that at least Dimension Door in OotS doesn't require the caster to go alongAlternatively, the Forbiddance spell provides a similar effect to that of dimension lock without the visual component, but would require it to be awkwardly placed to only cover MitD's box, since it doesn't hurt V - this would be a very strange use of a spell designed to cover a whole area from teleport. The chance of MitD remembering the password are slight, too, which would mean he'd be damaged every time he entered the box.Standard teleporting rules do require the caster to touch any other travelers, but the rule is not observed in OotS (see any of the prior examples)MitD could have the ability to grant Greater Teleport or its equivalent to its target, rather than cast it himself, thus leading to V or O-Chul casting it to get them out of there (although O-Chul wouldn't know where to take them anymore than MitD would, and it seems unlikely MitD would target V with that ability)Standard 3.5 edition D&D rules say Plane Shift can be cast so that the caster does not travel along for the ride. However it also says you MUST go to another plane, not another place on the same plane and that "precise accuracy as to a particular arrival point on the intended plane is nigh impossible". Also that "creatures must find their own way back". O-Chul and V make no mention of "getting back" and have no apparent means to plane shift. Note that in most occasions plane shift has been depicted with a kind of "window" opening, but not always.It has been suggested that MitD could have plane-shifted them to a good plane (e.g. Souther Gods' domain), and then where teleported back by an agent of good. Wish and the psionic ability "reality revision" are stated as being able to "Transport Travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions".Miracle can "Move you and your allies along with your and their gear from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error".Limited Wish doesn't say anything about travelling or transportation explicitly.The Epic Spell "Dreamscape" could be interpreted as providing the "Escape" capabilitiy, (_see_ Dream Larva)Psionics has equivalent teleportation abilities to all of the above. DaggerPen compiled a fairly complete list here.Creatures who have the ability might have captured Ganonron after he was expelled from V, and forced him to cast the teleport (other than being theoretically possible, no monster has been found capable of doing so other than the Parshendi that came out in 2014, and there is no evidence that this scenario took place)Selecting the Destination: Wish and Miracle have no issues with the destination of the escape. Teleport and Greater Teleport, on the other hand, do not easily explain how MitD was able to send them to a place he does not know about (teleport can only target places, not individuals). Possibilities:
MitD also used some form of Trace Teleport to send them to where V came fromMitD "rolled" on the Mishap table due to False destination, and got 'Similar Area', which placed them in the right place


*Section 1d: The Tower Scene**Spoiler*
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Link to the scene
It is likely that Rich bent the rules of D&D to show the point about MitD being both amazingly strong and a credible threat to the OotS. Nevertheless, Nerdanel has done an analysis of the feats and strength necessary for the scene to work in accordance to the rules. Find the relevant posts here, here and here.


*Section 1e: MitD's Alignment*
*Spoiler*
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The best that can be said about MitD's species' alignment is that it is unlikely to be Good, since RedCloak would not have recruited a Good creature to protect the goblin village given his rather dim views on the Good alignment.

This, however, is a very weak argument, since it can be argued that MitD was not, at the time, Good. Also, consider that MitD's alignment and his species' need not match. As such, knowing MitD's actual alignment brings us no closer to knowing his species' alignment and, thus, for the purposes of this thread, this is a barren path of inquiry.

The only exception to this is alignment when applied to morality plane denizens (i.e. angels, demons, etc.). Rich commented on this topic in DStP:



> It's important to note that this doesn't necessarily make Celia right in her views. Heck, they're not even all that consistent, considering she has been known to fly off the handle and zap people from time to time. Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an *embodiment of Law or Good*. She can mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals, as she does later when she finds herself cheering while Haley shoots people. She wants to be a pacifist, but she can get caught up in the excitement of battle the same as anyone else.





> The entire point of their organization is to blur the lines between the the three fiendish races (demon, daemon, devil) and depict cooperation where normally one would expect backbiting and betrayal. So here, we have a slightly less neutral daemon, a slightly more chaotic devil, and a slightly more lawful demon (one who went to college with devils, even).


From the above, we know that angels and demons (unlike other outsiders) are embodiments of their own morality planes. Yes, they can change their alignment, but only slightly, and when doing so it serves the purposes of their other alignment. And even then, it is a very rare and line-pushing experiment. The embodiments of the morality planes are as follows:

Lawful Evil: Baatezu/Devils
Lawful Neutral: Formians, Inevitables, Modrons
Lawful Good: Archons

Neutral Evil: Yugoloths/Daemons
True Neutral: Rilmani
Neutral Good: Guardinals

Chaotic Evil: Tanar'ri/Demons
Chaotic Neutral: Slaadi
Chaotic Good: Eladrin



Since MitD has performed both good and evil acts, it is very unlikely he is an embodiment of either Good or Evil.

*Section 1f: MitD's Scores**Spoiler*
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It has proven almost impossible to nail down what MitD's scores might be. The general agreement is that his strength must be past 30, his INT must be high (to account for his ability to learn quickly), his Wisdom be low (to account with his innocence and bad judgement) and his Charisma high (to account for the "beautiful" comment).

However, it is equally likely that he will be a near-epic creature, and as such his scores are going to be all-around high (by human standards).

*Section 1g: (Not) Seeing the Gates*
*Spoiler*
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MitD's inability to "see" the gates is felt by several participants to be a "clue" about MitD (rather than the alternative possibility, Rule of Funny). However, no explanation that ties MitD's species to the gates has been forthcoming, except when contemplating the idea of MitD being part of the Snarl.

Alternatively, it has been proposed that since the demiplane in which the Snarl is trapped is designed to null divine magic, and it is third-handedly established in SoD that the gods have difficulty in detecting the rifts, there might be some connection between MitD and the gods that makes him, too, unaware of the rift. Note, however, that MitD has an issue seeing the definitely-not-Snarl-related gate that Xykon installed to stop his zombies from walking into and being destroyed by the rift, so this connection is quite far-fetched.

Finally, it must be pointed out that MitD doesn't have a problem actually seeing the physical object that is the gate. Instead, his words seem to suggest that he doesn't know it is one. It has been suggested this might be because he thinks the only definition of "gate" is the portal that opens when the spell _gate_ is cast. If he has been told that is a gate (and he probably had seen the spell before, when he previously saw the Astral Plane), he would be confused as to why he can't see one near the massive wooden thing Xykon and RC keep pointing at.

*Section 1h: Recognising MitD (in-comic)**Spoiler*
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There have been two alternative explanations for the Hunter's + Circus scene and the differing reactions to MitD when looked at.

On one hand, the Hunter's scene can be seen as a lampshade hanging of MitD's ability to talk, i.e. an express admission of Rich that he shouldn't, just to get it over with and ignored thereafter. The hunters see a creature that is rare, powerful, strangely non-threatening and decide to sell it. They mention it talks, and from then on Rich need not keep pointing out this fact. The circus scene builds on this, letting us know MitD is revolting to look at (or smelled, or some other passive characteristic).

On the other hand, MitD could be a shifter. The Hunters may have seen a creature that couldn't talk, because MitD was adopting the shape of one, and was sold under the guise of one such creature. The circus crowd would likewise see either a revolting creature, or one that is shifting uncontrollably, such that the change is both revolting and, for some, beautiful (like a kaleidoscope). RC would recognise MitD for what he is, a creature that both shifts and can talk, explaining why he is not surprised by this last fact. Note that while this works on paper as an explanation, no creature that fits it has ever been proposed.

*Section 1i: Recognising MitD (by readers)**Spoiler*
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Some people have argued that the MitD must be easily recognized because they feel it would detract from the eventual reveal if the readers cannot immediately identify its species (usually, this is countered by the argument that the reveal will likely be a dramatic moment for MitD which, while it might require a specific ability, will not be centered upon MitD's species, but his growth as a character). 

Other people have argued that the MitD cannot be easily-recognized because it seems unlikely that Rich would select something easily guessable when part of the purpose of MitD was to provide a challenge to what, at the time, was a very D&D-centric readership. Faced with such an audience, Rich, they argue, would likely go for a challenging creature that would keep them (us) guessing for years to come.

Finally, some more people think that the fame of the creature is irrelevant, because nothing in Rich's words suggest that he must be famous or must be obscure and thus, unless he chooses to clarify, it is not a demonstrable characteristic upon which to build a hypothesis.

*Section 1j: Suspicion of MitD's involvement in the escape**Spoiler*
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Why wasn't MitD suspected for the escape beyond the demon roaches? RC, the resident know-it-all and most likely to connect the dots was not present for the escape - he used Word of Recall and only returned once the action was over. We also do not know how much Xykon knows about MitD. We only have MitD's word that Xykon knows what he is, and even then, given Xykon's attitude towards book knowledge, he probably only knows MitD's species name and the fact that he is strong, and thus powerful (power is all Xykon cares about). If so, Xykon would not know MitD can teleport, and likely thinks him too incompetent (and too asleep) to be responsible. All in all, the scene seems carefully orchestrated so that MitD could save O-Chul and V without giving himself away.

*Section 1k: The meaning of Fine Line**Spoiler*
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For a wide variety of reasons, a number of participants feel that the "fine line" comment is meant to be a clue about MitD's authorship:



> I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one


The reasoning goes that the phrase itself is unnecesary, the general understanding of it (i.e. Rich didn't create MitD) is addressed well enough in the context, and thus the retreading of the point actually hints to something not quite so clear cut - usually interpreted that Rich did have a hand in MitD's creation (because he helped craft the manual it is in, for example) or because he created it, but not for OotS.

On a strictly logical way, it is true that the sentence is somewhat redundant in context. However, it is also Rich's way of admitting that, to most of his readers, his assurance that he personally didn't create MitD is a cop-out since when MitD is revealed, he might as well have - the line he intends to draw between fantasy monsters created by him and others is fine indeed.

As a practical matter, even if the above interpretation is correct, and it is a subtle hint that Rich did in fact create MitD is some indirect way, it has never as a theory born fruit. To date no creatures have been brought forth with "partially authored by Rich" as a point in their favour.

*Section 1l: MitD's Hand in #555?**Spoiler*
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Unfortunately, what we see in Panel 1 in strip 555 is not MitD's hand, but the bucket's handle

*Section 1m: MitD's Species Size**Spoiler*
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We know that MitD has not yet reached his adult size, both from MitD's recollection of a much bigger father, and from Oona's comment that he is "so small, but will grow in time". The question, then, is how much bigger we can expect the base species to be. To answer this, size categories as used in D&D must be understood to be a logarithmic scale - each size category is double the height of the previous (length for quadrupeds) - a Medium size creature is up to 8 feet tall, a Large one 16, a Huge one 32, etc. While a child-sized Large or even Huge creature could be argued for (and is the basis for the size restriction in the FBS rules in section 3a), anything beyond has generally been found to be hard to justify. In part due to the general agreement that MitD is a pre-teen (due to his attitudes towards sex & boys-only clubs), which suggests he still has some growth to do before he becomes an adult - but not a huge growth. Humans, for example, grow about 20-30% of their height during adolescence. In D&D size terms, that might push you through one size category, but not through two (which would require more than doubling your height).

A second consideration is strength - larger creatures are, of course, stronger, but children are weaker than full grown adults. In the D&D ruleset, there exists a strength growth chart for creature size advancement that can serve as a guideline to how strength changes between sizes:
Old Size
New Size
Str
Dex
Con
Nat. Armor
AC/ Attack

Fine
Diminutive
Same
-2
Same
Same
-4

Diminutive
Tiny
+2
-2
Same
Same
-2

Tiny
Small
+4
-2
Same
Same
-1

Small
Medium
+4
-2
+2
Same
-1

Medium
Large
+8
-2
+4
+2
-1

Large
Huge
+8
-2
+4
+3
-1

Huge
Gargantuan
+8
Same
+4
+4
-2

Gargantuan
Colossal
+8
Same
+4
+5
-4


Dragons, as one of the few species with detailed statblocks for multiple stages of development, adhere to the above strength growth, usually splitting it across the age groups that share a size.



Version History
*Spoiler*
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1 - MitD - What We Know
2 - MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
3 - MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque
4 - MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque
5 - MitD V: MitD and the Templates of Doom
6 - MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature
7 - MitD 007: GoldenEyes
8 - MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)
9 - Summon MitD IX: Roll in Section 3a
10 - MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me
11 - MitD XI: A Good Man
12 - MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
13 - MitD XIII: Learning is happening
14 - MitD XIV: High In Protean
15 - MitD XV: The Other Dark One
16 - MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed
17 - MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic

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## Grey_Wolf_c

*Section 2: MitD**Section 2a: Physical Characteristics*
*Spoiler*
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Age*Spoiler*
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MitD's first appearance in SoD happens "29 years ago" (SoD pg. 49). This is measured back from comic 1, so MitD is at least 30 years old.

From his keeper's comments about how long he has been fed stew every day, we know MitD spent more than five years in the circus.

Appearance*Spoiler*
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MitD's appearance is both disgusting and beautiful, to judge from the reactions of the circus crowd (_see_ 1a SoD Canon). It is ugly enough to provoke vomiting in the stands, but still cause someone to exclaim "And yet... beautiful". 
Oona the Beastmaster compares him to a creature out of a spicy meat-induced nightmare, although she also calls him magnificent. 

It has been suggested it could be because in 1st edition, an evil creature with CHA -1 had the same CHAR bonus as a good one with CHA 24

Body*Spoiler*
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RedCloak suggests that he could use MitD as material to create undead, which suggests he has a physical body (e.g. not a fire elemental)
MitD's ability to laugh indicates he has lungs

Diet*Spoiler*
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For most of the comic & prequel, MitD was almost constantly hungry, thus probably indicating a species that requires food (but it isn't stated).
Take into account:
He is not at all picky about his food, having been shown to eat almost anything ("His palate can't be _that_ refined", dibs on a moldy cheeseburguer in sock drawer).He has preference for stew (See SoD, and here).He feels weird to eat babies (including veal), but not adults.He has eaten scrabble tiles, and apparently didn't find them to his taste (but he was expecting donuts)Xykon claims he has "read someplace" that MitD's species considers dwarves a delicacy (MitD disputes this)
As of #1260, MitD claims to not having been as hungry for the last few days ("not like super full, but I'm not starving. It's fine"). There is so far little consensus about the cause, but the following have been suggested as possibilities:
He is lying, not unlike the time he extemporised to stop Xykon from attacking the OotS at the desert; although this sitution feels different - for one thing, MitD doesn't know who these dwarves being offered are, and thus doesn't seem as conflicted about their impending deaths.He is approaching some kind of developmental stage (like a caterpillar about to cocoon, or in D&D Barghest about to go Greater Barghest)The caves are sustaining him, just like (presumably) they sustain all other powerful creatures inside themHe is in his species' preferred climate, being shown by his energy consumption being lowered


Gender*Spoiler*
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MitD self-identifies as male, forming clubs that don't allow girls. Also, O'Chul calls him "a good man"

Head*Spoiler*
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Eyes: MitD has two yellow eyes, next to each other. They are consistently drawn as larger than those of medium-sized creatures, closer to that of ogres (while still being more or less at medium-sized height, but he might be crouched under the umbrella)Face: RC makes reference to stabbing him in the face (War and XPs, page 415a)Mouth: MitD presumably has a mouth, since he has a tongue and teeth (that leave toothmarks in a taco in SoD). It must be rather large, since Xykon instructs him to "devour [RedCloak] whole"Olfactory organ: smells by sniffing while holding the bag close to below his two eyes (but could be his mouth, rather than a nose)Teeth: munches its food. And its voice is deformed while speaking with its mouth full


Limbs*Spoiler*
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MitD has got stomping ability while holding an umbrella. No specific limbs are identified (feet/paws/tail?), but the use of the verb stomp requires physical limbs, whatever they are. The limbs are also dextrous enough to hold crayons (War and XPs page 415a) and draw (lack of quality may indicate clumsy apendages, or lack of maturity).

Since he was able to both step on and pull on the rope at the same time, he must have or be able to produce at least two limbs, one of which must be prehensile.

He is capable of holding a bucket of paint and a brush on opposite sides of his face, suggesting he probably has two symmetrical prehensile appendages.

In the Earthquake scene, the far-back position of the stomp suggests he is either bipedal but crouched over, or walks in multiple 3+ legs, with some far behind the head's position.

Finally, what is visible in Panel 1 of strip 555 is not a limb, but the bucket's handle.

Maturity*Spoiler*
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MitD has consistently acted in very immature fashion, which could be his personality, or it could indicate he is a child of his species.
Take into account:
Oona the Beastmaster believes he will grow biggerHe is over 30 years old (_see_ Age)He hasn't changed all that much in size or personality since his earliest appearanceMany creatures (including demons and angels) have a really hard time fitting as MitD because of his child-like behaviour.Rich is unlikely to have him be too young - he dislikes the idea of creatures with the personality of a 4 year old having an alignment. MitD acts more like a 12 year old.

Personal Odor *Spoiler*
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MitD has frequently apologized for his personal odor. This could explain the reaction in the circus, although it would need to address the reason why the odor doesn't affect the public until _after_ he is lighted up.
It has been suggested that MitD's personal smell could be a hint towards the Stench ability

Size*Spoiler*
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Since his first appearance, MitD has fit in a box this size, and under this umbrella. This makes him human-sized or large. He is also shorter than Oona, who is Medium sized.
Take into account:
Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large faeries), but to this date he has only made small creatures larger, never larger ones smaller than they should be.MitD could be a young member of his race (_see_ Maturity)Oona the Beastmaster believes he will grow biggerHe's probably taller than a kobold:



> Mitd: "I know! Maybe I'm a kobold!"
> BlueCloak: "You're pretty tall for a kobold"
> MitD: "Maybe I'm _two_ kobolds?"


If you do not object to using templates (_see_ 3a: Templated Creature), the Dungeonbred template can be used to reduce his size by one category, theoretically allowing for huge creatures (but does carry the disadvantages of templates)

Sleep*Spoiler*
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MitD has been shown sleeping in various occasions (in SoD, and after O'chul's and V's teleportation), and has admitted to becoming sleepy, so it is reasonable to assume he requires sleep  (but it isn't stated).

Weight*Spoiler*
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RC was able to lift both MitD and his box onto a cart. This is almost certainly an exaggeration of RC's lifting ability for the purposes of moving the plot forwards, but a detailed examination of the issue was attempted starting here. The conclusion reached is that if Rich wasn't bending the rules, and if the box was made of a light wood (such as pine), and RC was using a spell to boost his strength [Divine Power gives +6], and he has average or slightly above average strength for a goblin (he is unlikely to have more than that, since he is a pure caster), MitD's weight should be that of a medium creature, tops. (See my numbers here)



*Section 2b: Abilities**Spoiler*
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Attack*Spoiler*
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MitD attempts to "hit as lightly as possible" and still sends both Miko and her horse flying through a wall, off a tower and long distance (the tower is nowhere to be seen, the mountains are far away).
Take into account:
If proposing a "child" or "runt" of a species known for great strength, the dissonance between his undeveloped personality and adult strength needs to be addressed.See here a post examining possible ways the punch could have happened by the rules.


Defences*Spoiler*
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MitD did not notice 5 attacks from Belkar and feels tickles when attacked by Miko. 
Take into account:
It could indicate piercing/slashing resistance, DR, high AC, high HP or a combination thereof.He got a paper cut from trying to eat a letter, indicating he can hurt himself (e.g. overcoming epic resistance, if he himself is epic, or indicating a natural armour that doesn't protect his insides), or Rule of FunnyMiko believes he has DRRC knows he cannot possibly injure MitD by stabbing him in the face (see War and XPs, page 415a)

Earth Cracking*Spoiler*
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MitD cracks the earth by stomping on it.
Suggestions:
Consequence of his great strength: sending horses flying through walls and for kilometers take about as much strength as causing the Earth to crack.Earthquake ability: like that of an Earth Elemental, or some other specific spell-like ability in that sense such as Wrack Earth (PH2)

Knowledge*Spoiler*
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Even though MitD displays lack of maturity (_see_ 2a: Maturity), he has displayed flashes of brilliance:O'Chul's comment he learnt Go! quicklyHis ability to tell that a ritual was only the second half of a wholeHis right-on-the-money Political AnalysisHe admits he doesn't actually try to think, and that he lets Xykon and RedCloak think for himIf MitD is psionic, it can be explained by hypercognition

O'Chul's Escape*Spoiler*
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We know from Rich's words (see section 1a) that MitD was responsible for O'Chul's and V's escape.
Suggestions:
Teleportation Spell: in D&D, teleportation requires the spell caster to travel with the targets, and more often than not to be touching the other targets.Wish: Very few creatures can cast wish, but would explain the situation well. In its favour, MitD is surprised when his wishes don't come true (but that could be his child personality).Plane shifting: Many creatures have this spell, but has most of the disadvantages of teleportation, plus O'Chul's and V's escape does not match the effect of plane shift (in that they ended up in the same plane)See also Section 1b for an in-depth analysis of teleportation options in D&D
Take into account:
MitD may have been hit by V's missed dimension anchor, explaining why he didn't go along if it was a teleportation effect.Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it has succesfully been used offensively in OotS)It has been pointed out that if it were a spell, MitD would have had to say its name out loud, which typically a spell requires (but not an extraordinary, spell-like ability or supernatural ability, nor a psionic power). On the other hand, not all spells have been said out loud in-comic (example: Xykon's mental suggestion in SoD, Redcloak passing his Trial Of Becoming A Hobgoblin with a silent Slay Living), so it doesn't discard a spell either.Other systems have spells or abilities named "Escape"

Psionics*Spoiler*
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It has been suggested that MitD may have psionic abilities since we never see his limbs holding up objects, and as an avenue to explain his other powers. If he only starts to actively use psionics at the time of escape ("unshackling" his mind due to the stress of the situation), it would also tie with Rich's comment about discovering powers deep inside himself (see Section 1a - Rich's Words). Also, it would explain why he tends to be tired after using his powers.
Take into account:
Most psionics featured in the comic (goblin mind reader, the story of the little psion that could and a guest appearance in SSaDT), had a purplish aura around their entire heads. However, Laurin has a yellow aura. In both cases, though, the aura surrounds the entire head, where MitD, at best, illuminates his eyes briefly.During the Go game, his turn starts and end, and yet we don't see him place a counter. Rich may have skipped the dialogue where MitD told O'Chul were to place his counter just to reduce the wordiness of that page, though. There is also no psionic effect line like the ones radiating from LaurinMitD is unaware of most of his powers, which doesn't suggest his mind is making them happen (so it would only explain the escape, if at all).RedCloak, who knows what MitD is, had to research if psionics existed in OotS-verse. If MitD is psionic, why was it so difficult to know? (it has been suggested he may have templated psionic ability, and as such his psionics not be part of his species). On the other hand, creatures can be psionic or not depending on the setting. RC could have known about the mind flayer in Dorukan's Dungeon, and still not know if psionic powers did exist.
If MitD wasn't actively psionic until the escape, it would also constitute an explanation: RC tested him for psionic powers and, finding none, couldn't decide if psionics existed or not.The lack of visible limbs is likely a combination of the minimalistic drawing style of the comic and Rich's desire to not show us what MitD is.MitD had to tip the circus cage to get to the bucket of stew; presumably a psionic creature could simply levitate the bucket (but MitD may be unaware of his abilities)The fact that no hand is seen holding the umbrella is a style issue where the hand is behind the object, rather than around it. Belkar holds his daggers in the same way

Rain*Spoiler*
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It has been suggested that MitD could have (inadvertently) caused rain to help O'Chul rest

Raising undead*Spoiler*
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MitD probably does *not* have the ability to raise undead, but might be used as raw material. At the very least, he does not have 5 levels of cleric, although it has been pointed out he may have the capability but due to his innocence/incompetence he has never used it, leading RC to believe he cannot without gaining cleric levels first. That said, RC would probably have checked MitD's MM entry, and be aware of all its powers, regardless of which one MitD uses.

Sight*Spoiler*
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MitD's sight is keen enough to be able to recognise Xykon on top of a dragon a catapult-max-range away, without the benefit of a telescope, but does not see him until he becomes visible, indicating he does not have natural See Invisible ability

Speech*Spoiler*
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The Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surpised MitD could speak, and in common (_see_ 1b SoD Cannon)
This is usually interpreted as a lampshade: his species can't or won't talk, but Rich changed it for plot purposes.Alternatively, MitD's species could have been confused with a similar species, which while rare and valuable, is not capable of speech.Note that the wording could indicate both species incapable of speech, and species that normally wouldn't talk (like Zodars).
It has been pointed out that MitD's speech bubbles are black text on white background, unlike demons, who tend to have red-on-black and undead, who tend to have white-on-black. However, there is one demon who has a normal voice, Sabine, so it is probably not a good indicator of species. Rich has confirmed that voice "colour" can mislead.

Shout*Spoiler*
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MitD can shout loud enough that it gives Belkar pause. This may or may not be an actual shout attack, although neither Belkar nor Haley were damaged, but they may have been Shaken, as in Frightful Presence.

Summoning Demon Roaches*Spoiler*
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MitD was *not* responsible for the Demon Roaches following team evil - as per SoD, they first attached to Xykon and RC in an evil dinner where Xykon used to get his coffee (in his pre-Lich days). MitD may have attracted more of them, but not the original group. As such, it is unlikely that their presence indicates anything about MitD. That said, the Demon Roaches are 4th-wall breaking rule of funny most of the time, regardless of their origin.

Swallow Whole?*Spoiler*
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In SoD, Xykon orders a mind controlled MitD to devour whole RC if RC double-crosses Xykon. This might indicate that MitD has a swallow whole ability.
Take in account:
 Xykon uses the word devour, not swallow, which allows MitD to chew. Xykon had only just met MitD, and since he isn't interested in reading, he probably would not know what MitD is precisely. Nevertheless, something about MitD (probably a big mouth or similar) suggested to Xykon that MitD would be able to carry out the order.



*Section 2c: Other Characteristics**Spoiler*
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Categories*Spoiler*
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MitD cannot belong to any of the following without being an exception to the listed characteristic:
*Not* a deity (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)*Not* Construct (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)*Not* Elemental (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)*Not* Ooze (has a body)*Not* Plant (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)*Not* Undead (eats, sleeps, etc)*Not* Vermin (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)

Several people have remarked that Oona's knowledge of MitD makes it unlikely he is an Outsider - but Oona may have better-than-average knowledge skills from her extended familiarity with Kraagor's Tomb.


Challenge Rating*Spoiler*
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Rich intends the MitD to be a credible challenge for the heroes - the watchtower scene was included for that reason, as explained by Rich. Since Rich likely has a target level the party will achieve by the time they face MitD, MitD must have a CR at or above this level. As a rule of thumb, CR18 or higher is preferred, Epic levels being better.See also lothos' analysis of MitD's CR

Connection to the Astral Plane*Spoiler*
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MitD seems to know the Astral Plane's characteristics.
Considerations:
He doesn't remember having been thereXykon is surprised at thisIt could be just a successful knowledge roll, or that he was taken there at some point in the pastIn the past, it displayed extreme ignorance of the planes

Darkness*Spoiler*
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As per NCftPB (see section 1a - Published Canon), the darkness that surrounds MitD is magical in its nature. Xykon's instructions imply that they are  independent of MitD, since he can step or leap out of them (i.e. leave them behind).
Note that D&D rules for line of sight allow for creatures at the edge of magical darkness to see out of it, while remaining concealed.

Drawing Clues*Spoiler*
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Even though MitD is always in darkness, it has been suggested that by carefully noting the placement of his eyes, and of anything he manipulates, his general shape can be deduced. The general consensus is that he is either walking crouched or has four legs on the floor (from the placing of the stomp), and that he has a long reach (as when pulling on the rope: 9th panel). Take into account that this is debatable, and that MitD has not necesarily been drawn consistently

Since he can turn his eyes around (panel 11) without turning his entire body, it is possible that MitD has a neck or similar (such as eyestalks) that can move independently of the rest of the body.

Also, it has been brought up multiple times that the go board is a cryptoclue about MitD. Unfortunately, there is no agreement on what image they show, with people having identified it as Tarrasque, PvP's Skull, a demon, or an 8-bit sprite from some NES game (also, one jokingly suggested it looked like Pepe le Pew due to the color scheme). It is likely a case of pareidolia

Environment*Spoiler*
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The Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surprised to find him deep in a rainforest. This discards rainforest as his environment, but leaves everything else open.

Family*Spoiler*
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MitD remembers his dad "sort of" as BIG and even a bigger eater than he is.
Considerations:
MitD could have been "adopted" (or even created) by a member of another species completely, just as he is in the wrong environment. If this adoptive parent is of a different alignment from MitD's base species, it could explain MitD's conflict between good and evil.MitD is still young and will eventually be as big as he remembers his father to have beenMitD might have a warped mental image of his father, from remembering as "big" when MitD himself was smaller; as such, he may already be as big as his father used to be.MitD is mixed breed, and his father is larger than he will ever be

Knowledge of MitD*Spoiler*
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MitD is very difficult to identify. Only a few individuals have claimed to know what he is:
The Stereotyped Big Game Hunters (SoD) knew he was "one of those" and that it was surprising he could talk (and in common, even)RedCloak (SoD) stated he knew what MitD isOona compared him to a majestic monster comparable to a kebab-induced nightmare, but smaller than he could beO-Chul, after his long imprisonment and friendship with MitD, still needed the help of the most knowledgeable scribe available to the Azurites, and even after that, he only has "a theory" (which he does not think Lien or MitD would believe).MitD believes Xykon also knows what he is, but it's likely Xykon only cares about MitD's strength and looks, rather than detailed knowledge of what MitD can doWhat looks like a wizard (SoD) in the circus audience admits he'd never seen anything like it.

It has been suggested that the hunters may have confused MitD with a different, less powerful but similar looking species that nevertheless is still rare. There have been no practical examples of this yet. Stereotypical Big Game Hunters, however, are seldom wrong about their prey.

Mental Resistance*Spoiler*
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In SoD (pg.96), Xykon was able to command MitD (as evidenced by MitD's swirly eyes), indicating MitD is not immune to mind-affecting spells.

Reach*Spoiler*
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MitD cannot reach stew or meat left outside his box, but can reach the doors in Kraagor's wall enough to paint them, suggesting his reach is based on free movement rather than long appendages or telekinesis.

Species*Spoiler*
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MitD was declared by the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters to be "one of these", indicating that there are more than one of him.

Tracks*Spoiler*
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MitD leaves tracks, which Belkar can't identify (but he's a lousy tracker, and even if he wasn't, MitD might have been carrying table, chairs, stuffed animals and a paralized O-Chul at the time, which might have obscured the tracks). However, he leaves no tracks in the snow. The following possibilities have been suggested as an explanation:
He floats/fliesHe has some form of permanent pass without trace or water walk (note that despite its name, it works on plenty of non-water surfaces, including snow and lava)The umbrella hides the tracks, in the same way it hides MitD's limbs even when they should be visible (e.g. around the handle) (i.e. it's part of the "we don't get to see any part of MitD until the reveal)



*Section 2d: Abilities Augmentation: Templates, Class Levels, etc.**Spoiler*
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A number of ways to increase creatures capabilities to match those shown by MitD have been proposed. All of them have the same general problem: they likely violate Rich's assurance that he didn't invent MitD and that it can be figure out. To illustrate these issues, consider two examples:
Bingosaurus*Spoiler*
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The argument most commonly cited in favour of augmentations is that it is *not a Rich creation* if Rich merely uses already existing rules to create MitD, such as adding templates, feats, class levels, etc. But there are rules for making your own monsters, spells, etc.

Nothing is stopping Rich from making what is for all intents and purposes a Bingosaurus* complete with an insatiable hunger for stew and yellow eyes, using rules that were published prior to comic #100. He will then furnish it with Bingo's epic earthquake (which functions like a regular earthquake except it is much more awesome and can be aimed in a direction), Wish and Bingo's Commanding You To Stop ability, DC100, at will

*Named after Lord Bingo, original proponent of this counterexample.

Binks' Mystery Sword*Spoiler*
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Related to the above, the second most common argument in favour of augmentations is that since the rules exist, *it can be figured out*. By the same logic, a DM could hand a character a custom magic item like Binks' Mystery Sword* and not tell his player what it does because the DM didn't invent it, instead followed the rules, so clearly the player can figure out what it does on his own.

*Named after Binks, original proponent of this counterexample.


The augmentation ideas presented so far are:
Feats*Spoiler*
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When a creature is promoted beyond its base CR, with every 3 HD added, the DM can also add a feat. Of interest to this thread are the two following feats:
Mighty Roar: allows a creature, once per day, to make a dreadful roar that renders everyone nearby shaken for x rounds. Pre-requisite: be an animal or magical beast of at least large size.Stamp: allows a creature to make a shockwave with a radius of a number of squares equal to their HD. Creatures within the radius that fail a balance check vs the stamper's attack roll are knocked down; structures are also damaged by the shockwave, which could explain the ground being torn up if one is generous with the definition of 'structure'. Prerequisites: have feet, be at least huge size, and have the trample attack.
Cons:
No Wish featProbably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (_see_ Section 1a) since the exact number of extra HD added by "the DM" is not really guessable.Size issues: MitD is likely Medium sized; while large is possible, huge is likely too big.MitD is clearly lazy, and thus has little canon support for the idea that he has developed beyond the average of his species (quite the opposite, in fact). His father being bigger than he is also argues against this (more HD eventually makes the monster bigger).


Templated/Mixed lineage Creature
*Spoiler*
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In D&D, a template is not a creature, but rather a number of changes that can be made to any creature meeting the requirements. The changes usually are around a theme. For example, the half-dragon template (applied to creatures with partial draconic parentage) make the creature more draconic, giving it a breath weapon, claws, a bite attack, and some draconic immunities, along with making the creature physically and mentally stronger. 

Some templates function more generally, the fiendish template, for example, is used to create races of fauna native to the lower planes, and never originally were the base creature, but instead are a separate (but similar) species. Therefore, not all templates are once-in-a-lifetime combinations fluff-wise (although a half-fiend, half-celestial, half-red, half-blue, half-green, half-silver, fiendish living fireball could hardly be considered anything but a once-in-a-lifetime combination).

More practically, templates can provide practically every ability the MitD has demonstrated (teleportation, strange appearance, physical defenses, great strength, etc). Due to the ability of templates to make practically anything the MitD, this thread has moved away from analyzing specific monster template combinations (of which there are many), and instead will evaluate templates alone as what they could contribute (if there is a published example of a creature with a template, it can be proposed as a creature).

However, templates, like all augmentation, has its drawbacks:
No Wish template before strip #100 (Amidah and other Immortal's Handbook variants came out later)Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (_see_ Section 1a) since the exact base type and templates use is not really guessable.Unless the exact combination of templates and base creature has been used elsewhere, it can be argued that an original template stack would be a Rich invention.Its unlikely that a one-in-a-lifetime combination of templates would be so common that the hunters call it "one of these" (although not all templates require mixed parentage)No actual evidence of MitD having different species parents (although not all templates require mixed parentage)

Below is a list of templates that can provide abilities the MitD has demonstrated.
*Spoiler*
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Beast of Xvim (Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerûn)
*Spoiler*
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Summary: A monster blessed by Xvim (and evil god in Forgotten Realms). While it doesn't give any abilities that make it a good candidate to be the MitD, it has a Feed ability similar to that of the Barghest (only increases HD, but the HD increase is uncapped). See the entry on Phrenic Creature for how this is useful. The fluff would need to be redone, as Xvim does not exist in OoTSverse, although the Dark One could be a suitable replacement. Has moderate DR that might be able to explain tower scene defenses, although on its own it cannot explain any other scene.

 Advances HD by 1 automatically, gains an additional HD per 8 HD of humanoids slain and eaten. Makes explicit mention of glowing green eyes. The eyes of the MitD glow yellow. With the adaptation to a different god, arguably the appearance like this could be altered. In any case, there would be some alteration (which could violate the "not Rich's creation" rule) to make a Beast of Xvim without Xvim. Gives moderate DR (scaled on HD, /+1, +2, or +3, so unclear what would overcome it after upgrade, which could explain tower scene defense. Can be applied to any creature, although Xvim prefers "bats, black dogs, black cats, hawks, and vultures, or in monsters such as beholders, green or blue dragons, hell hounds, cockatrices, imps, dark nagas, and undead creatures."


Dungeonbred (Dungeonscape)
*Spoiler*
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Summary: Creature was raised in a dungeon and is smaller than normal. Applied to corporeal aberration, animal, magical beast, or vermin. Makes the creature slightly weaker physically. Doesn't explain any scene, but can allow the MitD to fit in the box or under the umbrella.

Rich was involved in the creation of Dungeonscape, and has mentioned working on the template chapter, therefore could be his creation, no real way to be sure. Essentially gives -4 Strength, so it is harder to fit the tower scene. Eats less than a normal member of his race, as the MitD eats a lot, not all that good a fit.


Fiendish Creature (SRD/MMI)
*Spoiler*
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Summary: Like normal creature, but native to lower planes. Gets DR/magic, energy resistance, SR, and Smite Good, all scaled with HD. Always evil. Doesn't explain any scenes, although the DR arguably could help provide defenses for Tower Scene (although it is at most  10/magic, so not unlikely Milko would overcome it). Can be applied to corporeal nongood  aberrations, animals, dragons, fey, giants, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, oozes, plants, or vermin. Animals and vermin become magical beasts.


Half-Dragon (SRD, MMI, various other books)
*Spoiler*
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Summary: Applied to any corporeal living creature to make it more draconic. Gets breath, claws, bite, and some draconic immunities (paralysis, sleep). Also gets wings if large or larger. Big bonus to Strength (+8), small bonuses (+2) to Con, Int, and Cha. There is a type of half-dragon for practically each type of true dragon, although none of them really do much. The +8 Str means if the base creature's strength is ≥22, it'd have get sufficient tower scene offensive, but other than that, the template doesn't generally help much (there are a bunch of types, it is possible one of them adds something else, if so, bring it up).


Half-Elemental (Manual of the Planes)
*Spoiler*
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Summary: Creature has various elemental traits. Doesn't change appearance much (minor elemental themed things, like an half-earth elemental might get gemstone eyes. Gives a number of SLAs based on HD, none of which really are useful (with the exception of half-earth, which gives earthquake at 13 HD, and could explain the stomp scene). Earth and Water give minor boosts to strength. Can be applied to any corporeal creature with an Int of 4+. Changes type to outsider, gives appropriate elemental subtype. With the exception of the strength boost (+4 and +2 for earth and water respectively), doesn't allow creatures to explain the big scenes, although Half-earth can explain the  the stomp with earthquake.


Half-Troll (Fiend Folio)
*Spoiler*
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Summary: Boosts strength, gives a bit of fast healing, bite attack, claw attacks. Can be added to any animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or outsider, and changes type to giant. Strength boost (+6) lowers the required strength of the base creature (with this template) to explain the tower scene to 24. The fast healing (5) arguably could explain the tower scene defense, although somewhat dubious. The changing type away from outsider allows lots of template stacking, if one so desires. Furthermore, half-trolls are pretty ugly, which could explain the circus scene (but what kind of wizard hasn't heard of trolls?).


Monster of Legend (MMII)
*Spoiler*
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Summary: An animal, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid has a divinely appointed task, and special powers to back it up in accomplishing said task. Changes type to outsider (native). They are unique, so all those things kind of make the (seemingly purposeless and lazy) MitD not seem to fit. The template increases physical strength (+10), and can give fast heal 5 and DR 10/+1 as well, which arguably could explain the Tower scene (the strength boost certainly helps, although the fast healing and DR is rather on the low end). Nothing to explain escape. Can get frightful presence, which could explain circus scene, although it is triggered by making "a loud sound (a roar, growl, or other sound appropriate to its form)," hardly what the MitD did.


Paragon Creature (SRD/ELH)
*Spoiler*
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Summary: Generally makes the creature stronger, better faster. Gives fast healing and DR which can explain the tower scene. Boosts ability scores, attacks, damage, AC, saves, skill checks which can qualify an otherwise weaker monster (ex: Genie) as a threat to a near epic-level party. Does not change physical appearance or grant teleportation ability, so cannot explain escape or circus scene. Does not change creature type. Can be added to anything.

+15 Strength allows any base creature with Strength ≥15 meet strength requirement for tower scene offense. Fast healing 20, DR 10/epic, maximized HP, +15 Con, and +12 HP/HD on top of that (along with +12 luck and +12 insight bonus to AC) can explain the defenses in the tower scene for pretty much anything. The +25 luck bonus to hit and +20 luck bonus to damage could be argued to be a cause for the MitD "accidentally" hitting a horse through the wall. There is no real evidence of the MitD being exceptionally competent for a member of his species. In fact, Team Evil seems to think of him as sort of a disappointment. Without saying the MitD is exceptional, there is no real way to convey it is Paragon.


Phrenic Creature (SRD/Expanded Psionics Handbook)
*Spoiler*
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Summary: The creature happens to be psionic. It can be applied to any not mindless creature that doesn't already have the psionic subtype. It provides various PLAs (Psi-like abilities) based off HD. The important thing for the MitD is psionic teleport 3/day (just like normal teleport, but psionic) at 15+ HD, which can explain the escape scene. It does not say it alters appearance (although larger than normal brains is a common trait to denote psionic ability), but probably cannot explain the circus scene, and provides no boosts to physical attack or defense to explain the tower scene.

 Gives PLAs, ML=HD. At 15 HD, gives psionic teleport 3/day which serves as an adequate explanation (likely arriving at a "similar area", possibly the MitD originally had a false destination making it more likely. It has been argued the MitD's eyes glowing with the Escape are more similar to psionics than other magic. We had no real evidence of the MitD being psionic, and the template makes no physical distinction between the base creature, potentially violating "can be figured out" even more than templates in general.


Pseudonatural Creature (SRD/ELH)
*Spoiler*
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Summary: Makes the creature a cosmic horror. Explains circus scene with alternate form. It can fit tower scene for ~90% of proposed candidates (Strength ≥8), but can't explain the escape. Can be applied to any corporeal creature. Makes the creature an Outsider (extraplanar)

 Can be added to any corporeal creature. Gives +22 strength, at least 35 natural armor, and DR/epic scaling with HD. This allows pretty much any creature with over 8 strength to fit the tower scene (although the more HD initially, the better). Has an alternate form specified to be "a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form)," which can explain the circus scene. Alternate form imposes morale penalty on attacks against the monster, but nothing huge like dying of fright or confusion. Does not provide explanation for the Escape (its Dimensional Door ability has a range of 1200 ft).



Radiant Creature (DR321)
*Spoiler*
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Summary: Creature native to the "plane of radiance." Gets DR/magic and fast healing 2 (while in light), which kind of poorly explains defenses in tower scene. Gives some light-based SLAs (nothing we've seen the MitD use). Main draw is dazzling aura (dazzles creatures within 30 ft that fail a will save) to explain the circus scene. Boost to charisma (+6) might make it more beautiful. Strobe lights can cause dizziness and other such things, so that could explain why some people had a negative reaction. The template can be added to any Aberration, Animal, Dragon, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, or Monstrous Humanoid, and changes type to outsider.


Proposed combinations:
The Adversary: a illithid merged via "faulty ceremorphosis" with a powerful sorcerer.Half-giant war troll of legendHalf-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) TarrasqueBaby Awakened Fiendish Half-Efreeti TarrasqueParagon!somethingPhrenic Ephemeral HangmanPhrenic Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque Wilder 1Phrenic Tarrasque Wilder 1Half-Orc Half-DragonRadiant Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) TarrasquePseudonatural Phrenic TarrasquePseudonatural greater barghast servitor of the Dark OneParagon Phrenic Pseudonatural Tauric Werewolf Lord Hybrid Form/Chimeric Giant Giant Shadow Awoken *Bonsai* aka Potted Plant
*Pimp my Tarrasque*
*Spoiler*
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Given the huge number of such combinations suggested for the Tarrasque, this approach is also known as Pimp my Tarrasque:




Class Levels *Spoiler*
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Only useful to explain the escape scene, it suggests MitD has 18+ class levels of Sorcerer, which would allow him to cast wish even if the base creature normally wouldn't (assuming it has at least 19 CHA).
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (_see_ Section 1a) since MitD has not shown any other spell from those 18 levelsIt is unexplained how MitD would even gain 18 levels, given his general lazynessIt would require MitD to have forgotten he gained those levels ("discovers powers that he didn't even know he had")

Proposed class levels:
18 levels of sorcerer would give him access to wish.2 levels of fighter with the alternate class feature Dungeoncrasher might be used to explain the tower scene (although he would have had to rush Miko and her horse, which doesn't quite fit the "hit lightly" rule he himself imposed).

Reincarnation*Spoiler*
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This idea suggests that MitD used to be a powerful spellcaster (level 18 or more) that dies and used a Reincarnation spell to reincarnate as a rare animal.
Cons:Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (_see_ Section 1a) since there has been no mention of the possibility of reincarnation in the comic, and it would make figuring out what MitD almost impossible

Abomination*Spoiler*
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It has been claimed that there is a way for Rich to create his own abomination. Some abomination traits are similar in their description to MitD's eating habits.

Cons:Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's wordsAlmost certainly violates the "didn't create it" clause in Rich's wordsAbominations are immune to mind control


Psychic*Spoiler*
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From a third-party book published just months before strip 100, if offers a number of powers similar to teleport and others, except using "psychic powers".

Cons:Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (_see_ Section 1a) since MitD has shown no psychic abilities, and if he did, they are too easily confused with psionics

Unbridled Shapeshifter*Spoiler*
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By RAW, a shapeshifting creature can gain a large number of abilities by successive shapeshifting into the correct creatures, gaining their magical powers and access to ways to make those changes permanent. The ur-example of this is Pun Pun, the shapeshifting all-powerful kobold. Combined with some form of convenient amnesia you could create a creature very much like MitD, no matter what powers MitD turns out to posses.

Cons:Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (_see_ Section 1a)Rich has been very outspoken about his views on this kind of shapeshifting, including a series of articles on how to fix it.


Book of Vile Darkness Demon Lord*Spoiler*
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As per BoVD, demon lords each have a unique look and a unique set of abilities. While a few examples are given (such as Demogorgon, a demon prince), they are explicitly by no means exhaustive. The proposed demon lord, as such, fits the big scenes in whatever way we wish.
Cons:Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (_see_ Section 1a)Demons may or may not have parents in OotS (general cosmology used doesn't have them, but the demon summoned by Qarr claimed to have one - but he was under the Despair spell, and therefore his idea of being a disappointment to his father might have been spell-induced)Demon Lords are embodiments of their respective Evil plains, and as per Rich's words on the topic, should not be able to change their moral position more than slightly - nowhere near the range demonstrated by MitD (_see_ section 1e)

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

*Section 3: Proposed Ideas*
*Section 3a: Suggestions that Fit the Big Scenes (FBS)**Spoiler*
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This category groups ideas that fit the clues in the major scenes of MitD, with the following characteristics (as per thread consensus):
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 2c - categories) (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size/strength requirement
Up to Huge: 30 STRGargantuan: 38 STRColossal: 46 STRColossal +: 54 STR
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)

The proposals may still have other objections (such as that the above explanations require stretching the rules of D&D).

Athasian Nightmare Beast*Spoiler*
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Pros: 30 Strength Psionic teleport Fairly ugly and unique CR18, decent defences Dominated by its voracious appetite, can eat anything Despite spell-like abilities and intelligence appears to have no listed languages or even forms of communication
Cons: Posted publicly a few months after MitD's decision, but the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich. Post no longer exists. Closest official version (Legends of Athas beta pdf) Jasdoif could find is gargantuan, and from 2008

Glabrezu (SRD or MM 43)*Spoiler*
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Pros:Access to wish 1/month, explains the escape and why the goblin wasn't teleported. It also cannot grant its own wishes, further explaining the lack of later success.31 STR20 CHA, but still rather disturbing looking, while not being immediately recognisable as a demonSurprising it can speak common (not in its language list)The stronger limbs are probably not dextrous. The human-like ones are probably not strong enough to pull on a rope.
Cons:Huge by base, would require MitD to be less than half-adult sizedNot surprising it can speakDepending on canon interpretation, cannot have a parentEmbodiment of Chaotic Evil plane - should not be able to be as Good as MitD is.Low CRCan see through magical darkness due to True Seeing

Hagunemnon (Protean) (SRD or ELH 196)*Spoiler*
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Pros: 
Great strength (53)Access to Planar Travel through convenient partial shapeshift into e.g. Umbral Blot, which includes greater teleportAs a psionic creature, it may have been converted by the means described in the Expanded Psionics handbook, which would give him psionic teleportadequate sizehis shapeshifting sounds disturbing, but has 34 CHA.Despite being capable of speaking any language, Proteans normally speak only ever-evolving language impossible for any non-protean to understand, thus being surprising it talks in common.Its psionic ability to detect thoughts would explain his knowledge of the ritual, probably having heard RC's thoughts on the subject.Fluff implies there are protean newborns, so presumably they have some form of parentage ("Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever changing")
Cons: 
Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (_see_ 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same), and is specially an issue while he sleeps, since he likely cannot spend actions to keep a face then (however, see this essay giving plausible story reasons why MitD might want to keep his eyes steady, and he might be faking sleep, or his eyes are not visible at all when he sleeps and the lines drawn are for visual communication only)

Hunting Horror (CoC)*Spoiler*
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Pros:
CR 20 - powerful enough to be MitD.Strength of 34 - on the lower side, but within acceptable bounds for the tower scene.Hideous form - looks like a "black ropy worm or serpent, rather like a legless dragon... with a single wing rising from the middle of the back and a long sinuous tail trailing behind," but are also "mutable, as some have reported them with two wings instead of one, or two eyes instead of a single three-lobed yellow eye." 6th edition of CoC describes them as "hard to look at" and "continually changing, twitching and writhing".Accompanied by a permanent foul stench that causes Nausea.Has a Roar ability, but that causes damage, so perhaps that doesn't explain the "STOP" after all.Can understand speech, but "rarely speaks," according to the D20 version.Has a Swallow Whole ability, so more than capable of devouring Redcloak.Has a tail that it can use as an appendage, allowing him to smack the ground and "punch" Miko and Windstriker through a wall, but making pulling things or holding small objects difficult.Rare to see it on Earth at all, let alone in a rainforest in the middle of the day.Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a list
Cons:
Defences not that great: AC of 19, plus DR 5/+1, fast healing of 10 - only the last can help explain the "tickle" comment, and not well at that.Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a listAccess to teleportation a bit dodgy - some older versions give it more random spell access, but D20 specifies a list of spells that does not include teleportationDamaged by light - explanations vary as to whether it can tolerate a few hours worth of light or if light damages it outright, but a problem either wayToo big to fit under either umbrella or box.The total lack of non-wing limbs in the official description doesn't fit the art clues. It's of variable form, though, so it might have limbs.
Alternatively, it has been suggested that the HH could be following the CoC rules, rather than the d20 rules, in which case he could use Avert Harm to resist the attacks, but in that case, the creature does not have a means to explain the escape. As a workaround, it has been suggested it could have learnt a heavily modified Word of Recall that teleports to a random destination, although this has no canon support (that such WoR exists, nor that MitD has learnt it).

Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph*Spoiler*
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Pros:Can interface with a teraport to teleport (although it is not clear how he'd know where to send them)Incredible strength and fighting abilities. Invulnerable to anything short of plasma weapons.Looks like a pile of pooEndearing and adorableFits under the umbrella easily, but his dad could have been bigger if he had eaten recentlyFamous for his unbridled appetite.As per Shining Wrath's Weak Carbosilicate Amorphic principle, "If MitD is in fact a Carbosilicate Amorph, it is because Rich has brought Carbosilicate Amorphs into OotSverse, and therefore they are as recognizable as any other monster of similar rarity"Rich could probably secure copyright from Howard Tayler, since they are friends
Cons:Rich _probably_ wouldn't use a science fiction character from another comic in his fantasy comic.


Slaad (ELH 217)*Spoiler*
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White/Black slaads only.
Pros:Very strong, epic defencesCan teleport othersDisgusting appearance (humanoid toad)Not inmune to mind-affecting spellsWhite one is Large. Black is Huge.
Cons:Tricky reproduction cycle means black/white slaads are unlikely to have a "father" (unless it is of the foundling variety).MitD would have to be over 300 years old, having evolved through green, grey and death slaad varieties. This does not mesh well with his mental characteristics. (unless Rich has bent the reproduction flavor text)It may be Product Identity (listed as such in d20.org, but not in the WotC legal documentation).
Even if it is, it may not be impossible for Rich to use it for free, unlike trademarked creatures.Can talk common, and thus wouldn't surprise the hunters that he can talk.It may be too recognisable as a humanoid toad to fit the wizard's comment in the circus scene.


Uvuudaum*Spoiler*
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Pros:
greater teleport available 3 times a day as an SLA explains the escapevery high strength (39), is very ugly but has extremely high charisma (46)large bonuses to knowledge:arcana and spellcraft explains understanding of the ritualLarge size, so fits in the box, and doesn't need for MitD to be much smaller than adult to fit under the umbrellaNormally communicates with telepathy, not by speaking, so it's surprising it talks. A confusion aura could explain reactions in the circus, particularly if it's weakened by MitD being a youngster of the species.
Cons:Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures)His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.


Xenocrysth (Hyperconscious: Exploration in Psionics)*Spoiler*
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Pros:
 Strength 43, High AC, DR Psionic Teleport, and ability to read minds, which would allow him to pick up the destination from V's mind Unusual appearance Telepathic, so surprising one chooses to talk rather than "impart their thoughts directly into the mind of those with whom they wish to communicate"
Cons: More terrifying than vomit-inducing appearance No legs to stomp with, but the end of its tail does have a mace-like protrusion that could have been used instead Gargantuan, although a very small gargantuan by size (30 ft in length, is actually shorter than the minimum). MitD can be argued to be a mere 25% of its standard size (two categories), which even with hefty strength penalties would still make him quite strong Fluff suggests they are formed from psionic nightmares, rather than through reproduction, but it is vague hearsay, and possibly wrong ("Sages believe that xenocrysths have slipped from a lucid dream of the Dark Plea[...] the Dark Pleas progeny continue to squirm forth, birthed from the foulest nightmares of powerful psionic creatures") Hard to reconcile with RC's difficulty in establishing if psionic rules are in place in OotS, since a Xenocrysth comes from a psionic manual, although it could be that its Catapsi Leech ability was impeding any other psionic's from properly demonstrating their abilities to RC.




*Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Ideas**Spoiler*
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These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a significant problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.

Deity*Spoiler*
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First, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:
If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks, which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talkWhy would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.


Grue*Spoiler*
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Can challenge any lone adventurer, has insatiable appetite and sparse descriptions mention it being horrible. However, it wouldn't desire to be lighted as MitD does, and it is not known to have magic (e.g. teleportation). Note that MitD has enjoyed being in the light before joining team evil, both in the jungle and specially in the circus, and has never shown any discomfort from being in the light (see section 1a - Published Canon)

Pun-Pun & Family*Spoiler*
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Pun-Pun isn't really something that can be classified as "one of those", and it seems likely that Rich made a joke of this idea when MitD suggested he might be a kobold, only to be told he's to tall for a kobold 


Rich "The Giant" Burlew*Spoiler*
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Rich does not fit any of MitD's characteristics - neither physical (e.g. great strength), nor mental (e.g. personality), nor supernatural (e.g. teleportation powers). Claims that he could give himself the powers needed because he is the author are effectively accusations that MitD is a Mary Sue (unfounded), but also if that were the case, it would be something Rich invented for the story. 

A frequent defence is that OotS people would react poorly to people from our world, but we have seen RL people in the comic, and they are stickified, so Rich would not fit the circus scene. Claims that he'd retain his RL nose are baseless, and furthermore the reactions to noses in-comic do not match the circus scene anyway. Rich is also a vegetarian, while MitD eats meat


Snarl jr*Spoiler*
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Probably the #1 proposed idea, the "son-of-Snarl" has a major problem: it does not match Rich's words that MitD is a monster someone else (i.e. not him) invented (_see_ Section 1a: "it isn't something I just made up for the story" & "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually"). Snarl has also not displayed any form of teleportation magic, nor any particular appetite (except maybe for souls, although it could equally be a figure of speech of the destruction it brings to mortals), nor need to sleep.

Furthermore, Snarl has been kept a major secret - it's unlikely that the hunters would know, or that they have seen so many Snarl Jr.s running around they can talk about not having seen "one of these".

Tarrasque (SRD or MM 240)*Spoiler*
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Tarrasque is an iconic creature, famed for eating a lot and sleeping a lot. Unfortunately, there is no particular reason to think that MitD is an iconic creature, and Tarrasque brings several other issues to the table, the most important of which is its lack of teleportation/wishing abilities. Other issues: Tarrasque is traditionally unique and non-reproducing (not part of a species) and far bigger than can fit under an umbrella.



*Section 3c: Copyrighted Ideas**Spoiler*
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All ideas listed here, regardless of how well they fit, have a major problem: they are trademarked, or otherwise unavailable for Rich's use due to legal issues (_see_ Section 4a: Inappropriate Topics)

Black Mage (Final Fantasy)
Boggart (Harry Potter)
Claydol(Pokemon)
Danica (Star Power)
Diawolf
Domo-kun (NHK)
Father (KND)
Godzilla & pals (Godzilla)
Goku (Dragon Ball)
Gozer (Ghostbusters)
Haggunenon (HHGTTG)
Heffalump(Winnie the Pooh)
IT (Stephen King's IT)
Jason Asano (From He Who Fights With Monsters)
Kirby(Kirby)
Lord Ochu (FinalFantasyX)
Mario (Super Mario Brothers)
Meatwad (Aqua Teen Hunger Force)
My Little Pony(My Little Pony)
Pervect (MYTH Adventures)
Plastic Man (DC Comics)
Q (from Star Trek)
Rawhead Sidhe (Dresden Files)
Red Mage (Final Fantasy)
Roger Rabbit (Who framed Roger Rabbit?)
Snorlax (Pokemon)*Spoiler*
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A great fit, since:
"They can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes",is known for its huge appetite (including his ability to eat moldy food) and its sleeping.It grows from a much smaller pokemon, Munchlax, and fits in the box as an adult (6' 11'').Using Metronome, it could have a plot-casuality induced access to "escape from battle" abilities.When not drawn anime style, pokemons can be downright disturbing (non-Snorlax example).When you fight a static-encounter Snorlax in the games, if you do not capture it, when the fight ends the game text tells you that it has 'stomped off back to the mountains.'Has Fissure as an egg move, whose in-game description reads: 'The user opens up a fissure in the ground and drops the foe in. The target instantly faints if it hits.' (picture)


Shadow (Babylon 5)
Shadowchild (Digger)
SMT3 and Persona 3 and 4 (Megami Tensei)
Skull (PvP)
Skywarp (Transformers)
Tonberri (Final fantasy)
Vatch (Witches of Karres)
Vorlon (Babylon 5)
Weeping Angel (Dr. Who)
Wile E. Coyote (Looney Tunes)
Ygramul (Neverending Story)
Yoshi (Super Mario Brothers)
Zoidberg (Futurama)


*Section 3d: Light-Hearted Ideas**Spoiler*
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These ideas are not meant to be taken seriously, and were added to this post only because they amused me enough I wanted them recorded for posterity. Please don't read too much into them (or what they say about my sense of humour)
Inmune to blades, including scissors, but suffers from papercuts? *Spoiler*
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Must be a Rock
The most dangerous box everThe fearsome Gazebo*Spoiler*
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HotAndCold explained:
A gazebo is obviously a powerful monster, devouring the story's PC without any chance of rebuttal.It takes no damage from a +3 arrow, just as MitD apparently takes no damage from Miko's or Belkar's attacks.Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?Or expect to find one in a jungle and even speaking in Common, for that matter?It is, of course, a juvenile gazebo, explaining its roughly Medium size, rather than its being large enough for, y'know, people to hang out in it.I... guess he could be a particularly ugly gazebo? Although technically speaking, the gazebo's never actually described in the story beyond its dimensions, color, and the pointiness of its top. So I guess one could argue the gazebo's horrific appearance.The description states that the PC "awakened" the gazebo, implying that it was sleeping. Perhaps it had recently used one of its mighty and tiring abilities!
A Fanboy*Spoiler*
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Truly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.

We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.
Grey_Wolf_c*Spoiler*
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> 1) How did Grey_Wolf_c punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
> - She suggested a Tarrasque should be added, and her horse said Snarl Jr.  An adrenaline-fueled rage took over.
> 2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt Grey_Wolf_c ?
> - Maintaining these threads has made him impervious to pain.
> 3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize Grey_Wolf_c ?
> - Keeping up with the thread means he doesn't have time to keep up his appearance so looks like a human-sasquatch mix wearing clothing.
> 4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing Grey_Wolf_c ?
> - No time to shower either.
> 5) How did Grey_Wolf_c teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
> - Well, you got me there.



The Giant*Spoiler: No but really though.*
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No, not that Giant, *this Giant* Former WCW World Champion. Latterly The Big Show, and played by Paul Wight. 

An actual fairy-tale Giant, a wild-haired mountain-savage, who wrestled in World Championship Wrestling from 1995 to 1999, and was booked as the son of the late Andre The Giant.

*1) The Escape:* Can The Giant teleport?... Bizarrely enough,_ yes._ The Giant debuted in 1995 in World Championship Wrestling as part of the_ 'Dungeon Of Doom'_ stable, portraying a similar role that the MITD has in OOTS. The powerful dragon controlled by _'The Taskmaster'_ Kevin Sullivan. In this role, he actually _could_ teleport. And teleported to and from the titular _'Dungeon of Doom.'_

*2) The attack and defense portrayed in the tower scene:* At Halloween Havok 1995, he attacked Hulk Hogan on the roof of the Cobo Arena in Detroit. He fell from the roof of a 12,000 seater stadium straight to the concrete parking lot below, and not only lived to tell the tale, but wrestled later that night. Talk about damage reduction. As for attack?  Well... He's been showed to flip cars and throw _"350 Pounds, solid steel ring-steps"_ in his time... I think you'd need at least a Strength of 28 to do that last one if you had the Hulking Hurler Prestige Class's ability _'Really Throw Anything.'_ He's choke-slammed two large men at once, in real life, where the men are _resisting_, rather than _helping_ you lift them up, that's basically dead-lifting around 500 pounds at once.
Also, he beat Hulk Hogan. No one beats Hulk Hogan. Ever. Seriously. Because Hulk Hogan is an arrogant, selfish old c-... Never mind.

*3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus:* He's been portrayed as gross, scary, impressive and interesting. And plenty of people paid to watch him.

*4) Isn't one of the impossible categories:* He's _definitely_ a humanoid.

*5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich:* Debuted on US TV in 1995

*6) Size no bigger than Huge:* _Only_ seven foot tall, 484 or so pounds.

*7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects:* Yup.

*8) Smaller and eats less than his father:* He was portrayed as the son of Andre The Giant a seven foot four, 520 pound man who is said to have consumed 7,000 calories a day in wine alone.

*9) Small, but will get much bigger:* The Big Show is _significantly_ fatter now than he was when he was known as The Giant.

*10) Could he eat Redcloak whole?:* Well... He has the appetite of a Giant, soon after his debut, he became tremendously fat, and since he was booked as a _literal_ Giant, a mountain-dwelling savage from 'Parts Unknown,' he probably isn't above eating moldy cheeseburgers.

*11) 'Wouldn't expect to see on of these here [In The Jungle]':* You wouldn't expect to bump into a wrestler in a jungle... Well, you wouldn't! Would you? I wouldn't!

*12: Surprised he can speak, and in common?:* Weirdly enough, despite speaking English very well, the interviewers and commentators would often pretend that they couldn't tell what The Giant was saying, kind of like Stewie in Family Guy.
Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon
*Spoiler*
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The MitD is a green dragon that also has five different green dragon ancestors in his family, so he has five instances of the Half-Dragon template. 

Pros:
Template combination is guessable, because it's not unusual for the Stickyverse.  Half-dragon hybrids are common: Girard is half-dragon, Enor is half-dragon ogre, Durkon's parents fought a half-dragon troll. The ancient black dragon says in #628 that she's expected that her son invites "that nice green dragon girl", showing that green dragons sometimes interbreed with dragons. #555 has a joke about a half-orc half-orc orc.63 strength to explain tower scene.Two claw attacks for 1d6 damage and a bite attack of 1d8 damage, weaker than the attacks of an ordinary young adult green dragon.  Lets Miko and horse survive tower scene.36 natural armor, 25 base armor class, 5/magic DR explains why Belkar's and Miko's attacks fail.  Half-Dragon template says "Natural armor improves by +4" so the bonus from multiple instances will stack."Elongated features [] and exaggerated teeth and claws" and "more formidable" both stacked five times to explain circus scene.  The wizard in circus has seen green dragons, but not one with such grotesque features.  He's just the kind of misshapen mutant that a freak show wants to show off.  Xykon finds him ugly.Misshapen features explain why Belkar can't recognize his tracks.Overly long claws and 10 dexterity makes it difficult to pull the rope.People can still recognize that he is a dragon, explaining "one of these".29 intelligence, 19 wisdom, and 29 charisma, may have skills in Bluff and Knowledge.  That is why he can bluff Xykon once he actually starts to think, and recognize the half a ritual.Large size to fit in box.Can fly, which is how he can get up to the entrances higher up in the mountain without leaving a trace.Dragons grow as they age, which explain that MitD's father was BIG.Two eyes.Not immune to mind affecting effects.

Con: 
Doesn't explain escape scene.

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## Grey_Wolf_c

*Section 3: Continued*

*Section 3e: Proposed ideas**Spoiler*
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Ideas that have been proposed, but cannot explain all major MitD scenes (_See_ 3a)
Aboleth Mage*Spoiler*
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Pros:
28 StrengthEffective caster level 10th would allow him to have teleportAppearance: "The aboleth is a revolting fishlike amphibian" but charisma 14 could count as "beautiful" for someone that isn't too nauseated by fish-like beingsCan only speak languages that are used underwater - would be surprising to hear him speak out of the water, and in common no less.Very rare to be found outside of their natural environment (water)Grows bigger as it ages - father would be bigger than MitDEating creatures gives him their memories, which would explain why he doesn't like to eat babies (no memories - bland and boring food) and why he likes stew (he never knows what he's going to get, it's a big surprise!)
Cons:
This creature could be considered the "almost" FBS suggestion.
Strength is almost to the 30 used as rule of thumb for the tower scene, but not quite thereHuge, almost small enough to fit in the box - and if made any smaller by age or template, he'd be too weakCR17 is almost to the rule of thumb expected power level3 eyes - almost the right amount - vertically stacked.Study-based spellcasting is a poor fit for MitD, who is never seen studying spells

Akvan Div Prince*Spoiler*
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Too tall. probably not ugly enough. Might be too recent.

Alhoon*Spoiler*
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Undead, not strong enough

Anaxim (SRD or ELH 158)*Spoiler*
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Construct, no teleportation.

Andeloid*Spoiler*
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Can absorb the powers of other creatures, virtually explaining everything with the right set of creatures, but seems unlikely that MitD has had a chance to do so

Angel of Decay*Spoiler*
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Undead

Astral Dragon*Spoiler*
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Too big when powerful enough (if it ever is powerful enough - top strength of 24 is insufficient); too weak when the right size. Too recognisable due to being a dragon for it to fit the circus scene. Fluff about staying a child until mating does fit MitD.

Astral Dreadnaught*Spoiler*
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only one eye, gargantuan, can't explain the escape

Asura (high CR homebrew)*Spoiler*
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Can cause earthquake, looks weird. Can't explain the escape. Unsurprising to hear it speak in common. Too many eyes.

Atropal (SRD or ELH 159)*Spoiler*
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Undead: doesn't eat or sleep.

Audrey II*Spoiler*
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Not that ugly (people flock to see it), unclear if it can teleport others/grant wishes (up for interpretation), unclear if its strength is sufficient to punch people through walls and send them flying.

Bauhei*Spoiler*
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Unclear if it can be called "one of these". Doesn't fit the circus scene (awe doesn't induce vomiting)

Aurumach Rilmani*Spoiler*
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Too humanoid looking to fit the circus scene.

Baku*Spoiler*
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28 STR, probability travel works as teleport or a critical roll, fairly unrecognisable. However, also not specially disgusting looking.

Barghest (SRD or MM 22)*Spoiler*
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Pros:
Eats a lot, and gets stronger as he eats (reference)Greater Barghest has dimension door
Cons:
Not really all that strong, (max 20)No earthquake abilityDimension door doesn't explain the escape wellcan speak (but not in common)


Black Troll*Spoiler*
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Large, ugly as every troll, but looking demonic on top. Can cast Teleportation without error, explaining the escape (but not what the hell a troll is doing with that spell and 10 INT and CHA). Unfortunately, not quite strong enough. 

Brachyurus (SRD or ELH 170)*Spoiler*
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Strong and relatively ugly, but can't explain the escape

Brainstealer Dragon*Spoiler*
Show

Old ones are strong and have spells that can explain the escape, but are too big to fit in the box. Young ones that do fit are too weak. All of them can explain the circus scene. Published a year after strip #100

Braxat (MM2 37)*Spoiler*
Show

Not particularly strong, CR9 and can only explain the escape with Dimension Door.

Brood Keeper (MM3) *Spoiler*
Show

Can't explain the escape, the fear aura doesn't fit the circus scene, too big, not strong enough. Rich may have had a hand in their creation.

Bigfoot *Spoiler*
Show

Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.

Bulette (Land Shark)*Spoiler*
Show

Can't explain the escape.

Cerebrilith*Spoiler*
Show

Can´t explain the escape. Insufficient Strength

Centaur (SRD or MM 32)*Spoiler*
Show

Not strong enough, can't explain the earthquake, the tower scene, the circus scene or the escape.

Cherub (four-faced version)*Spoiler*
Show

Pros:
Strength of 36."four-sided head with the faces of a lion, ox, eagle, and man," which can be disgustingWish as an SLA, easily explains the escapeHas earthquake as a power, could explain the stomp.Large sizeCan be advanced to gargantuan, meaning that MitD's "father" could be either another larger cherub who was raising him or just a god specifically.Strange to find a cherub in a rainforest.
Cons:
Like most angelic hosts and demonic armies, it is hard to understand how it went unrecognised in the circus act - most people would have heard of them at their religious service of choice.OotS Cherubs don't look like that.Four sets of eyesUnsurprising it can talk common (can talk all languages)SBGH would probably not likely sell divine beings into slaveryImmune to mind-affecting spells and abilities.Doesn't really fit with why Xykon and Redcloak expect him to be "scary" and eat children


Chi You*Spoiler*
Show

Vaguely defined. Weird looking, but not particularly revolting. Can speak.

Chichimec*Spoiler*
Show

No explanation for the escape

Chronotyryn*Spoiler*
Show

Large, and can teleport, but has low Str (26), isn't particularly revolting-looking (it's a bird with arms) and not surprising it can speak ("dual voice").

Cildabrin*Spoiler*
Show

Insufficient strength, no explanation for the escape

Cipactli (Dragon #317)*Spoiler*
Show

Colossal creature that causes earthquakes by stomping. No Escape and weak Circus explanation. No manipulator limbs.
 
Coco, el*Spoiler*
Show

Creature from Spanish mythology that hides in the shadows and eats (misbehaving) children. Unclear if he is strong enough, probably can't teleport, and both the shadow hiding and children eating are the opposite of MitD's

Coeurl*Spoiler*
Show

CR4, nowhere near powerful enough. Can't explain the escape

Concordant Killer (MM4)*Spoiler*
Show

Created too late to be MitD. Not strong enough. Can't explain the escape

Corpse Tearer Linnorm (MM2 141)*Spoiler*
Show

Strong and with access to miracle, but only through cleric spells, which would give him Animate Dead, which MitD is known not to be able to cast

Couatl*Spoiler*
Show

Cannot explain the escape (caster level not high enough) the tower or the circus (not particularly revolting). CR10, nowhere near powerful enough. Since it has cleric abilities, should be able to help RC

Crypt Thing*Spoiler*
Show

Undead, can't explain the tower scene. Unclear how someone could claim not to have seen a human skeleton before. Unsurprising it can talk

Crystalle*Spoiler*
Show

Can cast Wish, but limited since the ioun stone has limited charges. STR 33. Cons: appearance not particularly disgusting; Elemental: doesn't eat or sleep.

Dao (MoP 172)*Spoiler*
Show

aka "earth genie". Pros:
Can grant wishesCan cast earthquakeHas a "shove" ability to push enemies
Cons:
Unsurprising it can talkCR6, little strength, no defencesNot unusually uglyUnclear how father would be "bigger and hungrier"

Deus Ex Machina personified*Spoiler*
Show

Would be a Rich creation

Disenchanter*Spoiler*
Show

Not strong enough, cannot explain the escape, not powerful enough to be Xykon's Ace in the Hole.

Displacer Beast (MM 60)*Spoiler*
Show

Can't explain the escape, not strong enough

Dragon (SRD or MM 68 + most MMs)*Spoiler*
Show

Pros:
Decent defencesthey like to eat and sleep
Cons:
They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Draknor*Spoiler*
Show

Sprouts from the ground, but we have seen MitD in high floors of towers.

Draeden*Spoiler*
Show

Ludicrously large (1,000ft per HD), would not fit in the box. Can raise the dead

Dread Linnorm (MM2 141)*Spoiler*
Show

Pros:
Huge StrengthWish (Sorcerer Levels)Ugly (with high Charisma)
Cons:
Colossal - requires him to be a runt, which brings problems re: high-level spell accessTwo Heads - requires a reason why it lost one (e.g. decapitation)Immunity to all spells of the enchantment school

Dream Larva (SRD or ELH 161)*Spoiler*
Show

Pros:
Worst Nightmare ability explains circus' reactions (as long as it is a 'young' dream larva, so that it is not immediately lethal)Very strong (42), high CR, defences and DRDreamscape allows teleportation, with a certain amount or rules bending (see here for an explanation)
Cons:
Immune to mind-affecting effectsDreamscape doesn't explain the escape all that wellNot known for its appetite, or its need to sleepUnclear if a young dream larva can even exist, and would be less lethal than an adult one.


Earth Elemental (SRD or MM 97)*Spoiler*
Show

Unstated how it would cause the escape, it cannot provide material for undead

Efreet*Spoiler*
Show

Not powerful enough in D&D, regardless of how powerful they were in the original mythology

Empyrean*Spoiler*
Show

5e monster, and therefore published way too late for MitD

Enveloper (1e FF)*Spoiler*
Show

Insufficient strength, it's main ability of absorbing powers (thus explaining the escape scene), would also give MitD knowledge that would be at odds with his known naïvety and ignorance. Difficulty explaining the circus scene.

Ephemeral Hangman (ToM 161)*Spoiler*
Show

Pros:Looks like a mass of black tentacles centered around a large maw and a trunklike body.Large, but when in darkness or shadowy illumination, it can fit into spaces that appear too small for itThe base species prefers eating children "and others too small and weak to fight back"
Cons:Can't explain the escape sceneProbably too weak: CR7, STR 22

Epic Dragon (SRD or ELH 181)*Spoiler*
Show

Pros:
Have access to WishVery strongLike most dragons, it likes to eat and sleep
Cons:
They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.Beautiful (sp. prismatic)They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Essence Reaver*Spoiler*
Show

Published in 2007, too late for MitD.

Fhoimoren Giant*Spoiler*
Show

No explanation for the escape. Weak defences.

Fiendwurm (MM2 99)*Spoiler*
Show

strong and known for eating constantly, can't talk, can send people to the Abyss, but that explains the escape very badly if at all, and lack of limbs and gargantuan size are problematic.

Fihyr, Greater*Spoiler*
Show

too many eyes, not strong enough, not challenging enough, can't explain the escape.

Formian Myrmarch*Spoiler*
Show

Not strong enough to explain the tower scene

Gelatinous Cube*Spoiler*
Show

Fits none of the major scenes

General Ox*Spoiler*
Show

Sorcerer with access to 9th level spells, and STR 36. Doesn't quite match the circus scene's public reactions

Genie/Djinn (SRD or MM 114)*Spoiler*
Show

while able to cast wish, they can talk, they are not particularly ugly, and they're nowhere near powerful enough for MitD

Geriviar*Spoiler*
Show

No good explanation for the Escape. Not strong enough.

Ghour*Spoiler*
Show

Decently strong, but insufficient CR and too big. Being a demon, it's morality and 'father' doesn't match well MitD's.

Giant Snowman*Spoiler*
Show

Large strength and high HP, but no other known powers to explain the other scenes (especially the escape).

Giant Space Hamster*Spoiler*
Show

Not strong enough, no magical powers, not ugly enough for the circus scene

Gibbering Orb (SRD or ELH 191)*Spoiler*
Show

Can't stomp due to lack of limbs. Shouldn't leave tracks. Too many eyes and mouths. No explanation for Escape, except far-fetched "ate someone with access to wish the day before".

Girard (Member of the Order of the Scribble)*Spoiler*
Show

Unsurprising it can talk, wouldn't be exhibited as a circus freak, wouldn't be hunted by the SBGH, is now known to be dead.

Gloom*Spoiler*
Show

Fairly strong, very powerful, but has no eyes, shadow walk isn't quite good enough to explain the escape and "tall, very dark, elf-eared person with a cloak" is not exactly "I've never seen anything like it before"

Goristro*Spoiler*
Show

Huge, and can't teleport, or explain the escape in any other way. See also Pit Fiend.

Gray Render (SRD or MM 138)*Spoiler*
Show

can't explain the escape, or the tower. Not particularly good at explaining the circus. Too many eyes (6).

Grendel*Spoiler*
Show

Original text says it is immune to weapons. Unclear how it accounts for the escape scene, except if it were demon-spawn due to conversion to D&D, which is a very big stretch. Difficulty addressing its strength (enough to break benches, but not the full hall).

Grey Slaad (MM 231)*Spoiler*
Show

can teleport people both within a plane and between planes, but so-so strength

Grootslang*Spoiler*
Show

Cannot explain the escape. Did not exist when #100 was posted

Guardinal, Leonal *Spoiler*
Show

Not strong enough, aura of fear for evil creatures should have been seen in the comic.

Gug (CoC)*Spoiler*
Show

(From Call of Cthulhu) Very ugly, and causes loss of sanity when looked at. Has a small chance of knowing how to teleport, but is not strong enough, particularly if young version is assumed due to size problems.

Ha-Naga (SRD or ELH 195)*Spoiler*
Show

Access to wish, and fairly strong although, being Colossal, too big for the umbrella (when moving), and lack of limbs make several scenes difficult to explain (like pulling on the rope or painting the doors). Not particularly vomit-inducing. Proposing a child version reduces the strength below appropriate amount. Can raise undead (or could by retraining upon level up), which MitD cannot "without gaining 5 levels of cleric". Can speak multiple languages, and thus would not be surprising it talked in common.

Half-Giant (SRD or XPH 200)*Spoiler*
Show

Strong and psionic, but can talk, unclear how it accounts for circus scene and the escape.

Hellfire Wyrm (MM2 125)*Spoiler*
Show

Dragon, and thus can't explain the circus scene properly. Too big (huge)

Hephaestus*Spoiler*
Show

God: Immune to mind control

Hoary Hunter (SRD or ELH 197)*Spoiler*
Show

Very strong, can plane shift, but not revolting enough to explain the circus' reactions

Hollyphant*Spoiler*
Show

Not quite strong enough, can't explain the escape, too adorably cute for the circus scene

Hunefer*Spoiler*
Show

Undead; due to paralysing aura can't explain the circus scene.

Illithid*Spoiler*
Show

Not strong enough, can't explain the escape

Illithid Elder Brain*Spoiler*
Show

Has good explanations for the Escape and Circus, but not quite enough strength for the Tower (while still having good defences). Does not have teeth or eyes. Requires a pool of water to live in.

Illurien (MM5)*Spoiler*
Show

Female, Insufficient strength

Ilsidaur*Spoiler*
Show

Demonic (difficulty explaining alignment, probably no parent), difficulty explaining the circus scene. Specific stats linked are too recent for MitD (older versions may exist, but have not been presented)

Incubus *Spoiler*
Show

Not powerful enough, difficulty changing alignments, can't explain the circus scene

Infernal (SRD or ELH 164)*Spoiler*
Show

Immune to mind affecting spells, unclear how it accounts for the escape scene (it's greater teleport is self-only). Can animate dead, which RC claims MitD cannot.

Intellect Devourer*Spoiler*
Show

Strength too low. No explanation for the Escape

Jabberwock*Spoiler*
Show

Difficult to gauge if it fits or not, since the jabberwock is never really described. However, being unique, it doesn't fit the comment of MitD being "one of these". D&D versions tend to be too weak, and lack teleportation.

Juiblex*Spoiler*
Show

Pros:
High strength.High DRTeleport without errorAppearance matches the Circus scene and there is even the fact that some people get obsessed with Juiblex and become thralls to explain the bit about beauty.Eats everything. Yeah. Everything.High knowledge skills that would explain the MitD knowing unexpected things. i.e. the ritual.
Cons:
Unique creature (likely, his children wouldn't have the above powers)No reason, assuming the BGH were not confused, for it to be surprising he can speak common.Attacks are always acidic in nature - does not match the Tower sceneToo many eyes, no teethAlignment issues (see section 1e)

King-Kong descendant*Spoiler*
Show

Problem addressing strength and size at the same time. Cannot explain the escape scene.

Klicker*Spoiler*
Show

No explanation for the escape, didn't exist before comic #100

Klurichir*Spoiler*
Show

Several versions exists: the one that are strong enough cant explain the escape, and viceversa. Demonic, so has some issues with Mit'd morality.

Kyton, Eremite*Spoiler*
Show

Can't explain the escape, since it can only self-teleport. Created after strip #100

Lammassu, Celestial*Spoiler*
Show

Not strong enough, can cast cleric spells.

Lammassu, Greater*Spoiler*
Show

The 2e 'Greater Lammasu' looked promising, but the 3 or 3.5 versions that have been reviewed fell short across the board.

Laogzed*Spoiler*
Show

Demigod: can be mind controlled

Lava Children*Spoiler*
Show

Can't explain the circus scene (neither ugly nor particularly strange), unclear if it can explain the escape

Lethus Dragon*Spoiler*
Show

publication date 7 years after strip #100. Otherwise, fits the FBS rather nicely, but not the general fluff of MitD

Li Lung (Earth Dragon) (OA)*Spoiler*
Show

Pros: Yellow eyes Reasonably strong, potentially challenging, and correctly sized up to young adult Damage reduction Earthquake AND a powerful roar Plane Shift
Cons: plane shift doesn't explain the escape well Personality (sleepiness, constant desire to consume, etc) doesn't match typical li lung's description As a young adult, it is not powerful enough

Loculi*Spoiler*
Show

1E monster, so hard to tell if he'd be strong enough. Fairly disturbing, and might have access to teleport items

Marut*Spoiler*
Show

Construct, has a vendetta against undead, embodiment of a morality plane

Myrmixicus*Spoiler*
Show

Teleport self+objects only (although with a very generous weight limit). 33 strength. Demonic looking, which might not quite explain the circus scene. Embodiment of a morality plane. Might not have the ability to breath air, since it's a aquatic demon.

Nabassu (WotC book previews or Fiendish Codex 1)*Spoiler*
Show

Not particularly strong, can only teleport themselves, and kill any level-1s that look at them, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act.

Neh-Thalggu (SRD or ELH 206)*Spoiler*
Show

incorporeal - meaning it has 0 STR and can't explain the punching of Miko or her horse (it could have bitten them, but not hit them)

Neo-otyugh (2e MM?)*Spoiler*
Show

Can't explain the escape. Unclear strength (otyugh is definitely too weak). Too many eyes (3).

Neothelid (SRD or XPH 204)*Spoiler*
Show

Pros:
Fairly high strength (30)Psionic Teleport at willVomit-inducing, since it's a gigantic worm with tentaclesHeavy eatingRarely communicates in a meaningful wayIts ability to Trace Teleport would explain how it knew where to send O'Chul and V
Cons:
Difficulty explaining the earthquake and the stomp, lacking legs.Defences not that greatNo eyesGargantuan

Nessie the Loch Ness Monster*Spoiler*
Show

Too big for the umbrella, can't explain the escape scene, difficulty existing in dry land

Nightmare Beast (MM2 161)*Spoiler*
Show

Pros:
Fairly strongspends most of its time looking for food, and then sleepingDimension doorCan't talk
Cons:
Not defensively impressive - Miko would not have had trouble hurting it.Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well.Red eyesEveryone in the city should've been having terrible nightmares

Nightscape Battlemage*Spoiler*
Show

Can't explain the circus scene or the tower scene. Unsurprising it can talk

Nycaloth*Spoiler*
Show

Insufficient strength, no good explanation for the circus scene or the tower scene.

Oni, Go-Zu and Me-Zu*Spoiler*
Show

Several varieties, none really strong enough, and with no way to explain the escape.

Onyx Worm*Spoiler*
Show

not strong enough, can't explain the escape.

Ophan Angel*Spoiler*
Show

Good stats, but hundreds of eyes, and no good explanation for the escape.

Outsider, The (H.P. Lovecraft)*Spoiler*
Show

undead

Paizo Golem *Spoiler*
Show

Construct. Can't explain the escape scene or the circus scene. Created 5 years after strip #100

Phaerimm (Monsters of Faerun 70)*Spoiler*
Show

Very, very ugly, access to wish through sorcerer levels, but not strong enough for the tower scene, and has no eyes.

Phasm*Spoiler*
Show

Telepathic, so surprising it can speak. Not strong enough, can't explain the escape.

Pit Fiend (SRD or MM 57)*Spoiler*
Show

Pros:Strong, good defencesHighly skilled in Knowledge Arcane, -Religion, -Planes and in Spellcraft which would explain how the MitD could identify the ritual with merely a glance.Access to Wish
Cons:
Pit Fiends probably don't have children and aren't child-like. (From Roy's Archon's words here, it seems OotS-verse has normal "advancement" of celestial beings. On the other hand, two demons have mentioned parents)It is not surprising it can talk.It can reanimate the deadCircus scene presents two problems: demonic creatures are not difficult to recognise (in a broad sense, if not the specific type), and the reaction one would expect is fear, not vomiting.Rich's comments in W&XPs seem to indicate that morality planes creatures can't change alignments more than slightly.

Planetar Angel (SRD or MM 11)*Spoiler*
Show

Has cleric levels

Pooka*Spoiler*
Show

No good explanations for the escape or the tower, being of the trickster fairy archetype

Primus*Spoiler*
Show

The supreme modron, has a bunch of powers, including teleport, but is too unique to be MitD (more a position than a creature type), is not particularly revolting, and cannot be mind controlled.

Prismasaurus*Spoiler*
Show

No explanation for the escape, immune to mind-affecting "attacks" (which may or may not include what Xykon did to MitD). In the circus scene, people aren't being blinded or hit by prismatic sprays

Psammead*Spoiler*
Show

Can grant wishes, but is not strong, is too small and being damage by water is something that does not match well with MitD's life in the rainforest. Also, Psammeads cannot grant their own wishes, so it cannot explain the earthquake or the tower scene.

Qlippoth*Spoiler*
Show

Specifically, the Augnagar: explains circus and tower, but can't explain the escape. Immune to mind control.

Quaraphon Bully(MM3)*Spoiler*
Show

Not strong enough, no explanation for the Escape, too many eyes.

Reality warper (e.g. Superman's Fifth-Dimensional Imp)*Spoiler*
Show

Their reality revision power would explain the escape scene, but not the tower scene. A reality warper can cause anything they desire to become true, but in the tower scene, the exact opposite of MitD's desires (to hit as lightly as possible) happened.

Sapphire Dragon, Ancient*Spoiler*
Show

"Ancient" doesn't really fit MitD's personality. Slightly too big. Barely strong enough. Can't really explain the Circus scene

Sarrukh*Spoiler*
Show

Not strange enough for the circus scene. Not strong enough for the Tower Scene. Not surprising it can speak.

SCP-682*Spoiler*
Show

Published in 2007, didn't exist during comic #100. Can't explain the escape (except by an undefined unrestricted ability to adapt). The personalities are very different. Arguably too powerful to be MitD. 

Shade*Spoiler*
Show

Can't explain the escape, nor the tower scene. It only fits the circus scene if it is a shade with no light sensitivity. Don't eat, breath or age. Their lack of metabolism means they also do not emit odors. The best fitting version is also a homebrew which didn't exist when MitD was picked.

Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon 191)*Spoiler*
Show


Pros:It can cast Dimension Door as a supernatural ability once per day.Its size is Large as a young adult and adult, and Medium if it is juvenile.It has damage resistance 5 when it becomes a young adult.It's Shadowy and gets 9/10ths concealment from this....
Cons:Not incredibly strongDoesn't explain the earthquake or the escape

Shadowcloak Elder*Spoiler*
Show

Shadow Blend doesn't match MitD's instructions to stay in the shadows (other than in Xykon's tower), not quite strong enough, can't talk, can't explain the escape.

Shedu, Greater (FF) *Spoiler*
Show

Not strong enough. Unclear what its stats are in 3.5. Not surprising it can talk.

Shoggoth (CoC)*Spoiler*
Show

Unclear if it can explain the escape, it may drive the public of the circus insane.

Shirokinukatsukami *Spoiler*
Show

Not enough strength (20), can't explain the escape due to only self-teleporting

Siabrie*Spoiler*
Show

Insufficient strength, female, beautiful, can't account for the escape.

Slime Child*Spoiler*
Show

Published after #100

Smiling Medina*Spoiler*
Show

Homebrewed after strip 100. Not strong enough for the tower scene.

Snark*Spoiler*
Show

Cannot explain the escape scene, and most likely cannot explain the earthquake or tower scenes (although the descriptions are vague)

Solar (SRD or MM 12)*Spoiler*
Show

Cons:
Solars don't really have children and aren't child-like.It is not surprising it can talk.It can reanimate the dead

Sphinx (SRD or MM 232)*Spoiler*
Show

Not really strong enough; the suggested idea was a kind of rock sphinx, but that can't be found in the stat'ed lists.

Starspawn (aka Son of Cthulhu)*Spoiler*
Show

Drives people looking at him insane, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act. Strength high, but not impressively so. 

Stench Kow*Spoiler*
Show

With a CR 3-4, it is not a credible threat to the order. Can't explain the escape or the tower scenes.

Sun Wukong*Spoiler*
Show

Talks, no father, not part of a group, vegetarian.

Tarasque, original mythological version*Spoiler*
Show

Probably would be the Tarrasque in OotS. Can't explain the escape

Titan (SRD or MM 242)*Spoiler*
Show

Pros: High Strength, mythologically, the Titan Uranus ate his children.
Cons: The only way to rescue O'Chul is by using Maze, which fits badly. It wouldn't be surprising it can talk.

Titan, Elder*Spoiler*
Show

Not surprising it can talk. Can't explain the circus.

Troll*Spoiler*
Show

Not strong enough, can't explain the escape, has difficulty explaining the circus (trolls are fairly common creatures, not something that unrecognisable).

Truly Horrid Umber Hulk (MM 248)*Spoiler*
Show

Fairly strong, confusing gaze might explain the circus' reactions. However, doesn't have teleportation abilities, or earthquake.

Tulani Eledrin*Spoiler*
Show

Too pretty and elf-looking for the circus scene. Not quite strong enough. Can cast clerical spells.

Two-headed Cyclops*Spoiler*
Show

Two heads, but only one eye each, lazy & fairly ugly, but can't explain the escape and are not that strong. They can also speak, but only elven, not common.

Ulgurstasta Sorcerer*Spoiler*
Show

Undead. Eats (swallows whole) bodies to produce undead, so should have been able to help RC. Gargantuan. Defences too weak to explain the Tower scene or Belkar's attack.

Ultroloth*Spoiler*
Show

Demonic (morality problems), insufficient strength & defences, can't explain the escape

Uluu Thalongh*Spoiler*
Show

Not surprising to be found in a jungle/rainforest. Unclear if it accounts for the escape.

Umbral Blot (Blackball)*Spoiler*
Show

Construct, too weak (Str 10) for the tower scene. Can't explain the earthquake's stomp. Appearance doesn't match circus reactions.

Umpleby (1st ed FF)*Spoiler*
Show

Can't explain the circus scene, or the escape.

Unbodied*Spoiler*
Show

Cannot explain the escape nor the tower

Utukku*Spoiler*
Show

Insufficient strength. 2nd ed version has poor defences, 3rd ed. version can't explain the escape.

Vasuthant (MM3 182)*Spoiler*
Show

Undead. Can't explain the escape

Vaarsuvius*Spoiler*
Show

Created for the comic. Doesn't eat meat. Not strong enough. Explanation that turns a wizard into MitD by means of the Snarl is completely unlikely and unsupported by evidence

Vermiurge (SRD or ELH 226)*Spoiler*
Show

revolting sight, but can't explain the escape, can speak and is immune to mind-affecting spells.

Velociraptor*Spoiler*
Show

Cannot explain the escape or the tower scene

Void Yai Oni*Spoiler*
Show

Can't explain the escape

Warforged (Eberron or MM3 190)*Spoiler*
Show

Construct

Wendigo (FF 186)*Spoiler*
Show

Very strong, fairly ugly, famously hungry creatures. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.

Wharlysk*Spoiler*
Show

Lives in the rainforest. Huge. No explanation for the escape. Not strong enough

Wild Things*Spoiler*
Show

Cannot explain the escape

Wolf-in-sheep's-clothing*Spoiler*
Show

Can't explain the escape. Can't explain the circus, since he explicitly does nothing during his act, so all the public would see is a tree stump with maybe a dead animal on top. Can't explain the tower scene (STR 17, CR 8)

Wumpus*Spoiler*
Show

Doesn't explain the escape.

Yali*Spoiler*
Show

Strong, can psionic teleport, but cannot explain the circus scene.

Yeti *Spoiler*
Show

Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.

Xor-Yost (Planar Handbook 122)*Spoiler*
Show

Can't explain the escape

Zodar (FF 199)*Spoiler*
Show

Pros:
Very strongCan cast wish once in a lifetime, and any spell three times in a lifetimeHuman-sizedInvulnerable to all damage except bludgeoning explains his resistance to Belkar's and Miko's attacks.
Cons:
Does not explain the circus scene, since it basically looks like a man in a black armor No reason why he'd remember a bigger father, or why Oona would expect him to grow.The official version of Zodar is a construct, which would discard him; there is, however, an unofficial version that retains the 2.0 version that was monstrous, and that existed before the official one.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

*Section 4: Thread Information*

*Section 4a: Thread Rules*
*Spoiler*
Show

This is a curated thread, and as such obeys the following rules:

Curator*Spoiler*
Show

I, Grey Wolf, am the curator of the thread.
Responsibilities:
Maintain the threadRemember arguments and canonAnswer polite questions about MitD and the thread

What I can't do
I have no official authorityI am not a moderatorI cannot ban discussion of issues I consider settledI cannot prevent certain topics from being discussed (but I can publicly withdraw from them); however, see also section on  Inappropriate Topics belowI cannot prevent any given poster from participating (but can Ignore them)I cannot make executive decisions on what is or is not included in the first post outside the guidelines stated in this post.


Adding information to the first post
*Spoiler*
Show

To add something to the first post needs _two positive votes_ to do so. "Positive votes" means two more people in favour of the idea than against it.

In normal operation, that essentially means convincing me to add it. The original proponent and me make the 2 votes, assuming no-one objects. If I disagree, the proponent will then need two other posters to agree with him/her (assuming no-one else but me disagrees). And so on: if 3 people are opposed, five need to be in favour, etc.

Why not simple majority? Because that is perilously close to a draw. With only one vote up or down, someone might come in a day later and vote against the idea would mean that we open the door to having to continually add and remove things from the first post - I want to prevent that as much as possible. This way, a vote against the change coming after the change still leaves a simple majority in favour of it (if would take two votes against the change after the fact for it to be reverted).

*The only exception to the rule is the refreshes*. When I do a refresh of the first post, I will not require to get anyone to agree with me; instead, I will publish a list of all changes as I make them, and when it is over, two objections will be enough to remove a change. For those doing the math at home, that is only one positive vote to remove it (I'd naturally be opposed, since I just added it), but since it got added only with one vote (mine), it's fair to remove it also with only one vote.

For major reworking of the first post, such as the issue with the definition of FBS, removing or adding whole sections, etc, it will need to be put to general vote. To request a vote to make a change to the OP, a proponent must obtain the backing of two other participants. The vote will then be held when the curator can set it up, or at refresh, whichever comes soonest.


Inappropriate Topics
*Spoiler*
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The following topics are considered by consensus inappropriate for the thread. Note that no mod has weighted on either, so the easiest way forward if you want to discuss them is to first get mod approval:
Intellectual Property ("copyrighted") creatures not belonging to WotC. Due to section "Inappropriate Topics", subsection "Professional Advice" of board rules, discussion of laws is verboten in this forum. Since the biggest objection to copyrighted creatures is whether or not Rich would be legally allowed to use them, every such creature proposed quickly devolved into a discussion of applicable laws, which is not allowed. For the purposes of this thread, any creature created after Mickey Mouse (1923) is currently under copyright in the US.
Please also see this post explaining the rationale behind the blanket ban on all copyright and copyright discussion, and especially the section on fair use.MitD's personal alignment: not that of his species, but his personally. Consensus is that his alignment cannot be tied to that of his species (_see_ section 1e). It is a separate enough topic that it should have its own thread. If V can have a thread for gender and a separate one for alignment, MitD can have one for his species (this one) and a separate one for his alignment. At least until the mods say otherwise.


*Section 4b: Voting Rules*
*Spoiler*
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Major changes to the first post may be put to consensus vote. In those cases, the following rules will be followed:
Public vote: votes will be posted in the thread, although please be conscious of both spamming rules and the general discouragement of short posts. I will compile all votes in the original voting post for verification and record keeping.Multiple votes per person: you can vote for more than one option. Do so in order of preference.Vote counting: will *not* be first past the post; instead, alternative vote system will be used.Vote length: Until a day passes without anyone else voting.Voting is binding: if you vote _for_ extra work, be prepared to _do_ the extra work. If extra work is voted for, but no-one does it, the option will be discarded and runner-up will be done instead. Generally, though, I will clearly articulate which options I will expect voters to do if they win, usually on the basis of the effort involved. If I do not say anything, you can assume that I'm happy to implement every option myself.Voting options: If you feel the options are not to your liking, you can vote for a new option by describing it in your post. Give it a letter for ease of voting.Changing Votes: You can change your vote at any time before the end of the voting.
Voting record
Aug-2013; Result: "Size no bigger than huge" & "no immunity to mind control" added to FB requirementsMar-2019; Result:No changeAug-2019; Result: No changeJul-2020; Replace FBS Condition 6) with a scaling strength scale, starting at 30 for Huge, and adding 8 thereafter due to reduced size of MitD compared to base species



*Section 4c: FAQ*
*Spoiler*
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Do I have to read all of the first post before jumping in?*Spoiler*
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No, but you should exercise good sense and read the sections most likely to be related to what you are about to post. 

If you want to propose a creature, scan the proposed creatures list to see if it is already there, and read both section 3a (to see how your idea stacks up against the current "best of the crop") and the frequently proposed (in case your idea is already there - in this last case, you need to address all the cons listed in your first post).

If you want to propose an explanation for a MitD characteristic, check section 2 for it, and see what the general consensus of the thread for the characteristic is. If it is a scene, rather than a characteristic, you may have read the whole section to see where that scene is involved.

For other situations, reading section 4 and this FAQ is a good start. If in doubt, you can ask me, the curator, for guidance to the best sections to read.

When is the first post updated?*Spoiler*
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Updates of details that strike me as important, typos, small corrections and other quick things can happen at any time. But, time permitting, every ten pages (at the end of page 10, 20, 30 & 40) I do "first post refreshes" where I add all new proposed ideas, and I may add entire new sections. See rules for the refreshes in section 4a.

When is a proposal added to the first post?*Spoiler*
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Proposals are added during first post refreshes (every 10 pages, unless I am very busy). For a proposal to be added, it needs to meet the following:
Be minimally defended. If just the name is mentioned, it won't get addedNot meant as a joke. If it was meant as one, it will only be added if I find it exceptionally funny (or with two positive votes).Not retracted by the author. If the author retracts it and no-one else is in favour, it won't get added.

Why is my idea not a FBS?*Spoiler*
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Probably because it doesn't meet the requirements which by current consensus are:
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)

Wouldn't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be legal under fair use or parody?*Spoiler*
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A detailed answer would count as legal advice, and can't therefore be further discussed (_see_ Section 4a - Inappropriate topics). Thread consensus is that neither fair use nor parody are applicable to MitD, but agree or disagree, discussion of IP non-D&D monsters is not allowed in this thread per the board rules.

Can't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be discussed, ignoring the legal status and only discussing its pros and cons?*Spoiler*
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In theory, yes, but in practice the biggest con _is_ its legal status, especially if the creature is a half-decent fit. The fact of the matter is that in practice, any non-D&D IP creature quickly descends into a legal discussion.

Isn't every idea guessable? I mean, if someone just guessed it?*Spoiler*
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"Guess" has two meanings. One is "random chance", like throwing a dart at a board. The other is "deduce". Rich intended the second one, as he clarified when he says "I trust that someone will figure it out eventually". He is dropping clues, and expects us to be able to eventually figure it out, presumably once we have all the clues.

Since you haven't found the solution yet, is it possible you are doing something wrong?*Spoiler*
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Not necessarily. Ideas come to this thread slowly. For example, our current best fits were not suggested until late in the second thread and early third, and the explanations for the escape only included the stray dimensional lock as of start of the fifth thread. Besides, there is no way to know if we have found the solution. Balloons won't fall from the ceiling the moment someone says the correct species; for all we know, we have already found the creature Rich thought of.

Haven't you checked all D&D creatures by now?*Spoiler*
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Not even close. There are literally thousand of official creatures, and beyond counting for third-party creatures published in all manner splatbooks. To illustrate just how deep the search space goes, consider that Crusher, in the space of an _afternoon_, checked one new source and found 5 new better-than-average candidates, and then repeated the feat a few pages later. There remains a lot of material to explore. And it was 14 threads before anyone thought to suggest the xenocrysth, a remarkably good fit that you'd think would've been brought up much sooner.

Does MitD have to be a D&D creature?*Spoiler*
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No, not at all. Rich has never said that MitD is a D&D creature, only that, whatever he is, he didn't make his species up.

Does MitD have to be a 3.5 D&D creature?*Spoiler*
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If he was updated to 3.5, yes, since conversion is automatic. But if he was never updated, he could be a 1st Ed or 2ed creature (although the latter would need a reason why he wasn't trapped in Dorukan's Dungeon with the rest of never-updated creatures).

Are templated creatures allowed?*Spoiler*
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Yes and no. You can put in a guess (that will be recorded in Crusher's list of guesses post) with as many templates, class levels, HD boosts, etc as you feel is called for. But when it comes to recording suggestions (section 3), only the base creature, as described in the statblock, is listed - templates are instead classified in section 2d. The reason for this is twofold: first, as per section 2d, templates are a kind of crutch, since they can be used by any creature, so it doesn't so much explain an MitD characteristic as much as declare it is not such, since others of his species can't do what he can.

But more importantly, the number of combinations of template and creature is practically infinite. I don't want to have to insert or maintain entries for species X; species X-template A; species X - template B; species X, templates A & B; etc. - because in the end, the information all those would contain is the entry for species X, and the information under the template entries in 2d. No need to duplicate the information.

----------


## b_jonas

*Section 6: Appearances of the MitD*
*Section 6a: Appearances in online strips.*
*Spoiler: Section 6a: Appearances in online strips*
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#23: Xykon says MitD is his secret weapon, will reveal him when the time is right.#37: Xykon and MitD watch Roy set off the booby-trapped door.#47: More crystal ball watching.#82: Redcloak tells MitD off for leaving mess in kitchen. More crystal ball watching. MitD is in magical darkness.#96: MitD can't see gate.#97: MitD joins Redcloak in evil laugh.#103: Xykon practices big reveal of MitD. Xykon is not satisfied, MitD listing spices to cook OotS with isn't scary enough.#105: Nothing.#106: Doesn't see gate again.#109, #110, #113: Nothing notable.#114: Xykon prepares to reveal MitD, gets interrupted. MitD is anxious.#117: MitD wants to get revealed, Redcloak and Xykon stops him.#120: Nothing notable.#147: MitD asks to hold Xykon's phylactery. Redcloak refuses, MitD had broken all his toys, including Power Ranger figures. MitD gets fanged Hello Kitty umbrella.#148: Nothing notable.#149: MitD does exposition about the initiation rituals.#190: MitD teaches Redcloak evil leadership.#191: MitD doesn't want to go into abandoned castle. Xykon tells MitD should be scary and powerful.#192: Nothing notable.#194: MitD asks lantern archons to light him up.#195: MitD asks why Serini's diary is useful, knows about magical books.#196: MitD knows about Dorukan. Doesn't know about gates.#259: Reader question time.  Hobgoblin Kodrog the Slayer knows what the MitD is, took a peek under his umbrella.  Dies before he answers.#299: MitD wants to be a valuable member. Redcloak says he can't help in making zombies.#331: Still confused about gate.#368: Sometimes I eat to fill the loneliness.#369, #371: Nothing notable.#373: Miko meets MitD.#374: MitD has to stop Miko. Feels Miko's full attack as only tickles. Plays Who Can Hit the Lightest, hits Miko and his horse far through the *tower* wall, but they survive.  Wall now has holes in the shape of Miko and horse.#375: MitD finds Miko's purse with letter from High Priest of Thor to Durkon, paper cuts his tongue.#376: Xykon had asked MitD to not let Miko get away, and this was Xykon's idea.#414: Nothing notable.#415: MitD crystal ball watching on Miko. Confused about gate.#422: MitD confused about Redcloak chewing out on decoy Xykon.#426: MitD confused about three Xykons.#428: Nothing.#431: MitD confused about four Xykons. Understands the distinction between arcane and divine spells. Redcloak explains the decoy strategy to him. MitD still doesn't understand.#447: Nothing notable.#451: MitD grumbles.#463: MitD plays tea party with toy green dragon. Paralyzed O-Chul arrives.#474: When Belkar is trying to track down Roy's corpse, he sees weird tracks that he can't recognize.  They're definitely not hobgoblin footprints, or Roy's, but doesn't know what made them.  MitD is still having tea party, now with dead Roy too.#475: Haley and Durkon wants to retrieve Roy's body. MitD doesn't allow, shouts Stop! As alternate plan, Haley offers stew in exchange for Roy. Flashback to MitD eating moldy cheeseburger.#476: MitD enjoys Belkar's half-cooked vulture stew. As Haley and Belkar starts to leave, MitD hears they're the Order of the Stick, who he's supposed to devour.#477: MitD thinks about whether he should eat Haley and Belkar without Xykon introducing him first. Doesn't seem to notice Belkar's attack. Haley and Belkar escape while he's still thinking. MitD stomps after demon roach's advice, causes earthquake and huge cracks in ground. Wow! I didn't know I could do that! Belkar lets O-Chul go, O-Chul falls back to MitD. MitD is really tired all of a sudden. And still hungry.#484: MitD carries the paralyzed O-Chul.#541: MitD is now in a large box with barred window. Wants to join Team Evil in betting game. Again bets on O-Chul escaping.#543: MitD says he hoped O-Chul would escape, but it didn't work. Still doesn't know gates. Wants to get out of the box, Xykon doesn't let him.#549: MitD is friends with O-Chul, trades food with him. Tells he eats anything but babies. Wants to start a club that girls can't join.#550: O-Chul questions MitD about why he's friends with Team Evil. MitD wants to play, O-Chul promises to play go with him in the morning.#651: MitD tells O-Chul about his youth. He always lived in the rainforest, although need not have been born there. His dad was BIG and a big eater. The MitD doesn't know what species he is or where he belongs, but thinks Redcloak and Xykon know. O-Chul convinces the MitD to start to think for himself, with a cheesy go metaphor. We see the go board. Fart joke at MitD's expense when Vaarsuvius arrives with a bang.#652: MitD does not appear.  Vaarsuvius casts Quickened Dimensional Anchor spell, its ray misses Xykon.#654: MitD still wants to get the darkness lit up. O-Chul escapes, and in his parting words, reminds the MitD of the lesson from #651. MitD calls O-Chul his real name for the first time.#658: MitD is worried about O-Chul.#661: MitD says O-Chul needs to escape now, because Xykon will be really angry. Calls O-Chul his friend again. Shouts *ESCAPE*, O-Chul and Vaarsuvius disappear. Xykon doesn't seem to realize it was the MitD's doing.#662: MitD is sleeping (or pretending to).#663: (MitD not present.) Vaarsuvius and O-Chul turn out to have arrived in Hinjo's camp. O-Chul requests the most learned scribe because he has questions about the escape.#699: MitD tries to replicate the escape on a hobgoblin. Deliberately misinterpreted Redcloak's words to bother someone else. Hobgoblin tells him he'd need to use magic for that to work, MitD says he's too dumb for that. MitD is worried about where he sent his friends and if they're safe.  Mentions the other planes.#700: MitD is not allowed in Tsukiko's room. MitD asks Tsukiko's help because she knows both types of magic. They discuss Tsukiko's fascination with the undead. MitD recognizes ritual scroll as half a ritual. Tsukiko promises she'll try to help him find his friend.#701: Hobgoblin from #699 asks MitD to open the curtains before Redcloak's speech. MitD warns him about clumsiness with pulling a rope. MitD thinks the goblins are cheering for his performance with the curtain.#702: Nothing.#703: MitD reads Gobbotopia history booklet. Joke about how Jirix was dead.#704: Redcloak thinks MitD doesn't know what a prime minister is.#709: MitD meets up with Tsukiko to call in her promise to find his friends. Tsukiko tells him he shouldn't be friends with paladins, and that she can't help because the Cloister spell protects O-Chul from divination. Joke about Xykon's balls. Even if Tsukiko and Xykon can't help, MitD hopes he'll find O-Chul eventually, and recalls the detail O-Chul said about rain.#828: (MitD not present.) Redcloak says MitD still watches the crystal ball.#831: MitD (still in box) informs Redcloak that Xykon is angry. (The reason is that the resistance acquired his phylactery.)#832: MitD now under umbrella. (Team evil is preparing to leave.)#833: MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Xykon says they'll take a quick detour to the Astral Plane before they go to Girard's gate. Redcloak opens portal to the Astral Plane. MitD: Oooo! I love the Astral Plane! It's so silvery and weightless! Xykon: When the hell were YOU ever on the Astral Plane? MitD: I don't remember. Maybe I wasn't?#886: MitD does not appear in OotS's illusionary imagination of confrontation with Team Evil.#887: In tiny picture in illusion montage, MitD under umbrella drinking tea with O-Chul, while Elan, Roy and Durkon are present.#899: Team Evil arrives to Girard's pyramid, MitD under umbrella.#900: MitD's umbrella damaged after pyramid explodes. He asks which pelvis Xykon is looking for.#901: MitD recognizes the Order of the Stick, knows they are O-Chul's friends. MitD refers to the paralyzed O-Chul accidentally falling to his tea party as him having captured O-Chul. Worried about the party, bluffs to Xykon that O-Chul and Vaarsuvius are more dangerous and must be already at Kraagor's dungeon, while Roy's party distracts Team Evil here. He cleverly uses the fact that Xykon never remembers Roy. The bluff works, they depart to Kraagor's dungeon immediately.#1036: MitD shows off his new umbrella to Oona, with drawings of duckies.#1037: Oona calls him Great Beast in Shadow, magnificent and majestic, like in wildest dreams. He saw MitD under umbrella. He and Greyview the dog treats him as if he was Xykon's pet who should obey Xykon, but MitD isn't willing to accept that idea. Oona says he almost bought two humans as food to MitD, seems to have heard that a human was MitD's best friend, but misunderstood as if he was his favourite snack. He also says he'd seen under the umbrella, he's a magnificent monster, envies Xykon for owning him, and thinks it's a waste keeping him in the shadows. Also says that the MitD is small but will grow.#1038: MitD understands that Redcloak needs to prepare his spells. Shows suspicious understanding of goblin culture with big words, demon roach lampshades that as clue to MitD puzzle.#1039: Team evil heads into Kraagor's Tomb, apparently not the first time.  To know which entrances they've explored, they mark the door with paint.  MitD gets permission to do the painting tonight.#1040: MitD feels lucky about new company, picks a door. Joke about adventure being off-screen.#1041: MitD falls back, paints cross on multiple doors, including ones not on the ground floor. Holds paint can and brush as if he had two hands. Seems to leave no footprints in the snow, unlike rest of the team.#1042: O-Chul and Lien covertly observe MitD doing that. O-Chul is happy that the MitD is not always obedient to Team Evil. O-Chul has a theory about MitD, but doesn't tell because nobody would believe it. O-Chul brought a go game board.#1189: Redcloak sees a lots of doors marked, concludes they've explored them quickly.  Oona disagrees, but MitD takes Redcloak's side to move on from that topic and cover his trick.#1259: Lien mentions MitD.#1260: MitD is no longer always hungry.  Hobgoblin named Haarko feeds him stew.  Xykon is surprised and doesn't like this: he needs the MitD to be able to eat the heroes.  Xykon says that he read that the MitD's kind likes to eat dwarves, but MitD disagrees.#1261: MitD asks where Redcloak is.  MitD can recognize Redcloak on Xykon's drawing.#1263: MitD awkwardly tries to deflect suspicion from that he made the extra marks on the door, both Redcloak and Xykon are apparently too busy to notice this.  MitD hopes that he managed to delay the search for the gate significantly with that ploy, but Redcloak explains why it doesn't matter too much.#1264: MitD hopes that searching the gate will take lots of time.  What gate? joke is back as Redcloak summons Modrons with a Gate spell.#1265: MitD is disappointed because the Quinton can keep track of doors so marking them with paint will no longer be necessary.#1266: One unclear line by MitD.#1267: MitD asks tricky questions from Xykon to try to confuse him into losing the word game that is the price for the Quinton's help.  MitD can't remember whether he had a name.


*Section 6b: Appearances in Start of Darkness (prequel book).**Spoiler: Appearances in Start of Darkness (prequel book)*
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page 49: MitD is sleeping then waking up. He's in the jungle and loves it there. Naively baited by a giant steak on a hook, he gets trapped in a box.Page 50: MitD asks hunters to let him out of the box, since it doesn't open from the inside. Hunters are surprised that he talks, and talks in Common. They believe he's a rare and expensive catch. I never expected They'll load him into the cargo hold of a boat.Page 83: MitD is about to perform in circus, has stage fright. He likes stew.Page 84: The ringmaster announces him as Prepare to feast your eyes on IT!.  *Circus* audience reactions: Oh my gods, It's horrible! (closing eyes), And yet beautiful!, Mommy, I feel funny looking at it., _Blerrrch!_ (vomiting), I've never seen anything like it!, _Woooooo!_ (Redcloak's niece), _YEAH!_ (Redcloak's nephew). MitD found the performance tough. The lady who cares for him doesn't understand, because every show he just stands out on the stage and gets gawked at. She gives him stew and has prepared his box. The lady also says the MitD's dinner was the same stew every day for over five years. MitD still likes stew.Page 84: After performance, Redcloak's brother Right-Eye and his children meet MitD. MitD is in the box eating the stew from a bucket. The box seems to be the same one as the one in #541. We see the box from its narrower side too: it has a  window without bars there. MitD remains in this box for the rest of the book. MitD recognizes the family and plays with the younger children with his toy plush dragon from #463. Right-Eye: Almost everyone else who spends a silver piece to get into the sideshow recoils in abject horror at the sight of you. They leave but will return tomorrow.Page 85: Right-Eye says that no, they can't take the MitD home. He affirms that the MitD eats a lot of stew, and can sleep.Page 88: Presumably the next day, Redcloak, newly arrived in town, is supervising Right-Eye's children in the circus. They meet the MitD behind stage in his box again. Redcloak was impressed seeing him. MitD: I don't fit into the leotards the trapeze artists wear. Probably has something to do with all the stew. Redcloak affirms that the MitD could leave the circus and kill all the guards if he wanted, but MitD says that would be rude. Redcloak invites the MitD to work for him. Work involves Being scary, mostly. Maybe some fighting. MitD is not paid by circus, Redcloak will pay three times as much.Page 89: In Right-Eye's home, Redcloak tells him he wants to recruit the MitD for the Plan, because he's powerful.Page 90: During the night, Redcloak steals the monster from the circus. Lifts MitD's box onto a cart with great difficulties. MitD rocks the box to reach the bucket of stew.Pages 91, 92, 93: Still escaping from circus. MitD doesn't help, except he can lean his weight to steer the cart.Page 94: MitD eats cotton candy.Page 95: Nothing notable.Page 96: Xykon observes the MitD. Xykon says the MitD is ugly, and is his secret weapon now, to deal with any heroes who try to stop Xykon and the Plan, as in #103. They're unclear about the details: Well what do you do that really terrifies people? Um let's see I eat a lot? OK, then, when the heroes show up, you'll eat them! I've never eaten a hero before. Xykon also magically charms the MitD to eat Redcloak if he ever betrays Xykon. MitD has swirly eyes, reacts out of character: Yes, master. Xykon promises him all the stew he can eat and toys, but refuses to let him out of the box when the MitD asks.Page 100: Redcloak orders MitD to lead the zombies to attack the castle of Dorukan.Page 101: MitD has no idea how to storm the castle. Asks zombies to bring him tacos instead.Page 103: A zombie has brought taco. MitD eats, with bite marks. MitD abuses the authority that Redcloak left him in charge.Page 104: MitD has a feast with a zombie bringing more taco and a goblin band playing music.Page 105: MitD still feasting. Xykon questions Redcloak about that.Page 109: MitD reacts to the news that Right-Eye died and won't be resurrected: _Awwwww,_ that sucks. He was fun.. Offers taco to Redcloak.Page 110, 112: Nothing notable.


*Section 6c: Appearances in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (book -1/2) and other books by the Giant.**Spoiler: Section 6c: Appearances in books by the Giant.*
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*No Cure for the Paladin Blues (Book 2)*
#194a: unknown (I don't have the book)
*War and XPs (Book 3)*
#415a: unknown (I don't have the book)
*Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (book -1/2)*
Page 28, in the Scruffy story Scruff and Tumble, which happens in Gobbotopia while Haley leads the resistance, around the time of #514:  In a house, a tiny psionic teleporting elephant beetle is leashed and captured in a magic circle.  Redcloak enters to find the beetle gone, the leash torn.  Redcloak is angry, blames the MitD for it.  MitD is under the Hello Kitty umbrella.


*Section 6d: Administrative notes about this list and version history.**Spoiler: Section 6d: Administrative notes about this list and version history.*
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These lists try to list all appearances of the MitD and references to him in all comic strips that the Giant considers canonical for the story.  I mention strips where the MitD is visible even if he's not doing anything, and strips where someone else is talking about the MitD in his absence.  I do not collect appearances in non-canonical material such as calendars and ornaments and shirts.

If you find any mistakes or omissions in this list, please point it out in the active MitD thread.  I will edit the list in place so that we always have the freshest information on the first page of the thread.  In particular, I know there are appearances of the MitD in bonus strips of some of the books I don't have, and one appearance in Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales, and would like your help in writing entries for them.  I am trying to make the list give an objective description of what we see in the comic without interpreting the scene in any particular way, so please try to stick to that style when writing entries.

Version history.
Until 2014 Back in MitD threads number 5, 6, 7, 8, Savannah posted a list of all appearances of the MitD in the comic on the first page2017-11-17 I ask why this practice stopped in threads 9 and 10. Grey_Wolf_c explains that it is because Savannah refused to give permission to copy his post in later threads. I decide to take the matter in my own hands and post a list that covers the first half of the online strips, and try to make it better than Savannah's list. Doug Lampert also starts one, but I don't like its style so I mostly ignore it, except for making sure I haven't missed any strip.2017-11-19: I post an updated list that covers all online strips up to that point2018-05-09: I post an updated list that also covers all of _Start of Darkness_, edit it in place with last update on 2018-05-292018-07-08: I post the list on the first page of the new MitD thread (number 11), with prior permission of the thread curator Grey_Wolf_c.  I add this administrative notes, but make no changes from the 2018-05-19 version in the actual list.2018-07-10: Add literal quotes into #833. Previous description was brief MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Remark about the astral plane. I left it like that because this is a strip I have a very strong opinion about, opposing that of some others of the thread, and didn't want to be too subjective.2018-07-31: Fix #374. Last sentence used to say "Plays Who Can Hit the Lightest, hits Miko and his far through the wall, but they survive." which is both missing the word "horse" and the important information that there are new holes on the wall.  Edited #477 to explicitly mention an earthquake, since the circular waves on the ground seem a clear enough sign. Also added bold keywords to the main panel of the four scenes that we seem to have clear consensus that they are key scenes (tower, ESCAPE, circus) so they're easier to find.2018-08-22: Add entry for #652 with Dimensional Anchor.2018-09-03: Mention Power Ranger figures explicitly in #147.2018-10-11: Extended #474 with Belkar seeing tracks.  Old text was just: Still tea party, now with dead Roy too.2018-11-17: Link to #113 was incorrect.2019-01-30: Add #259.  Add new section 6c for book -1/2; other books with only few appearances can go here too.2019-03-30: Copied post to new thread: MitD XIII: Learning is happening.2019-08-18: In #1037, mention that Oona thinks the MitD is small but will grow.2019-08-21: In #1041, add sentence about footprints.2020-04-29: Copied everything to MitD thread number 14.2020-06-16: Give more context for #1039. Text was just "MitD gets permission to do the painting tonight." Describe 1189.2020-07-17: Copied post to to thread: MitD XV: The Other Dark One.  It is numbered section 6 deliberately, despite that it's posted above section 5 the list of guesses, to keep section numbers stable if reasonably possible.2020-08-19: Stubs for bonus strip #415a in book 3, and #194a in book 2.2022-06-12: Add #1259.2022-08-13: Copied post to thread MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed; added #1260 to #1264.2022-10-11: Added #1265 to #1267.2022-10-12: Copied post to thread MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic.
Thanks.
At least the following forum users gave helpful hints for this list, so I'm hereby thanking them: Doug Lampert, Windscion, D.One, Yendor.

----------


## Ruck

As requested, the Protean argument will be posted at the top of the thread.

The original essay is posted here. With some minor revisions:

*Spoiler: Why MITD is a Protean*
Show


First, the background to my process:

*Preamble*

Im not a D&D player, a couple of the computer game adaptations aside. I dont know the game like other people do. Now on the one hand, I think that means I come in without any particular attachment to a creature, so perhaps my case is more objective than those of people who have a favorite D&D monster and want it to be the MITD.

It also means Im working only from the list of already-proposed FBS characters. Given my lack of experience with D&D and the amount of research already done here by people looking through various sourcebooks to find suitable monsters, I dont think I can add value with any further research. Thus, I have focused my efforts on examining the evidence available vs. the already-existing FBS list and trying to deduce an accurate conclusion. (As this implies, I also believe that it is possible to guess means MITD is a D&D monster which is capable of the things we have seen in comic by the rules of D&D 3.5.)

I also recognize that none of the creatures are _perfect_ fits; if they were, this thread likely would have reached a consensus already. But being as I dont believe I will find a better creature out there, I am going to try to determine the _best_ fit from the FBS creatures based on the evidence at hand.

Im laying out my case in three parts. The first part I call the Negative Case-- why the Protean has the fewest flaws in its case of any creature on the FBS list. The second part I call the Positive Case-- why I think the Protean is the best fit for more scenes weve seen than any other FBS creature. The third part is the Thematic Case-- while the MITDs species is possible to guess from the clues weve been given, Im also keeping in mind that this is a story and not a game of D&D, and I think the Protean is also the best fit for the MITDs role in the story and story arc.

Without further ado:

*Part 1: The Negative Case*

As you can see from the list of FBS monsters, every monster in the list has _some_ marks against its case (under Cons for each). Two things I want to highlight here are:

1a. Fewest cons

Most of the other FBS-list monsters have significantly longer lists of cons than the Protean's two. The longer the list of cons, the worse fit a creature is, as more conflicts need to be explained.

The only monsters with comparably short lists of cons are the Athasian Nightmare Beast, the Carbosilicate Amorph, and the Uvuudaum. Ill get to the Uvuudaum more in the next section, but I believe the first two, while they really only have one significant con, have disqualifying cons:

The Carbosilicate Amorph would have been imported entirely from another webcomic, a sci-fi story at that. Its not a D&D monster, and that makes the sort of deduction through D&D stats and powers were looking for here nigh impossible. I do not think Rich used a monster outside of D&D; while it is certainly possible he might, I would wager that the complications involved there violate the implicit agreement of the it is possible to guess statement. (To say nothing of any complications that might arise from using someone elses intellectual property-- because Im pretty sure were not allowed to discuss that topic.) In any case, thats a deal-breaker for me.

The Athasian Nightmare Beast was published after Rich, by his own words, decided on what MITDs species was. The explanation here is that the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich, but again, I interpret Richs possible to guess statement to mean it would have been possible to publicly find the information on MITD when he decided on the species. I could be wrong, but I dont believe he would have picked a creature yet to be published. (And thats before we get into things like the ANB being described as having crimson eyes when the MITDs are yellow, but Ill get to artwork in a minute.)

Every creature besides those three has a longer con list than the Protean. I believe two of those creatures will not be the MITD because of how they seem to violate the nature of the guessing game of MITDs species. But lets get to what may be the more important part of this argument: The nature of those cons.

1b. Mechanical Explanations

The Proteans cons can be explained without changing the D&D mechanics of how the species works.

Not only is the Protean's cons list shorter than the rest, the other species' cons all require substantial bending of the 3.5 rules to dismiss, or aren't really dismissable at all except by saying "This one just doesn't apply." (Or in the case of ANB and CA, bending space/time and genre in a way that I think violates the guessing game.) The Protean's is the only one whose Cons can be explained with established mechanics. (While Rich has said he only uses the mechanics as a framework for the story and isnt totally faithful to them, the assumption of this thread has been that his statement that it is possible to guess means he _is_ faithful to 3.5 when showing the MITDs powers, and I too use that assumption here.)

Lets pick up the Uvuudaum again. One of the Uvuudaums cons is His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene. I believe this is significant because its a mechanic that should work in OOTS-verse for an MITD scene but would simply have to not work as described in order for the Uvuudaum to fit. Many of the creatures in the FBS list have even more cons of this nature where the mechanics dont fit the creature in question. (The Glabrezu, for example, is too low CR, would not draw a reaction of surprise upon speaking, and is an embodiment of Chaotic Evil, which doesnt fit what weve seen with MITD. The Hunting Horror is too weak and is also damaged by light, which would be a problem considering how often MITD asks for light to be shone on him. Slaads can talk in common and also have already been depicted in the comic.)

The other con on the Uvuudaums list is art-based. The Uvuudaum, ANB, and Protean all have art-based cons, but I am willing to consider these as weaker cons than mechanical deficiencies. My main reasons for this are due to the limitations of the stick-figure art system and how to best express MITDs reactions, and due to Rich not wanting to change how MITD is depicted in strip and thus give away a reveal hes been planning for what might well be 20 years by the time it happens.

That said, I also believe the Proteans art-based con is the weakest of the three:

The Uvuudaums is Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures). While I can let the eyes go given that MITD is shrouded in darkness and eyes are the best way to represent his facial expressions, not having a mouth seems like a serious impediment toward eating and speaking, two things the MITD definitely does.The ANBs regards the eye color; again, I think it would have been a huge clue to change eye colors on the character as soon as its species was decided, so Im willing to overlook it (because I think the ANB is disqualified for the reasons I state above anyway).The Proteans is Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same). If you buy the above art explanations, then they will suffice as well for the Protean. If you _dont_, however, the Protean has a mechanical explanation that would suffice, in its description in the SRD:



> A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a proteans form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes).


Given how little movement we see the MITD make, its certainly possible that MITD is constantly using a move action to hold a form with two eyes (and probably a mouth in case someone brings stew). Indeed, given that a move action can be used in place of a standard action, even when we see MITD moving, its possible hes using his standard action to hold form.

I think there are good explanations _why_ MITD might do this (Ill cover them in Thematic Relevance), but for now, whats important is that a Protean _can_ do this. It doesnt need to be especially likely or common for a Protean to act this way to fit MITD; it only needs to be that a Protean is _capable_ of doing so. (In addition, taking the effort to hold a more-or-less constant form may be why MITD is always so tired.) 

It is also possible that MITD is _not_ doing this, but any extra eyes he manifests continue to remain hidden in the darkness. Or that we don't actually see the same two eyes, it just so happens that every time we look at the monster, he happens to have two eyes that appear in the same place from our perspective.

Peelee has a theory that in a world that runs on the rules of storytelling, the camera placement and our view of MitD's eyes will always be set up so as not so spoil the surprise:




> If an ever-shifting monster is kept as a surprise, the eyes will not spoil the surprise, because that's how the universe works.


In any case, there are multiple plausible explanations here for why we might not see MITD appear as we expect a Protean to appear. Rich's exact words on the subject are "Nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what [MITD] is," and appearing with two eyes, while unusual, _does not contradict the truth_ of what a Protean is or can be. 

(NobleCuriosity has a good post further elaborating on artistic reasons why Rich might depict a Protean MITD as having two consistent eyes-- specifically, the artistic convention of keeping one feature of a shapeshifter consistent so the audience knows which character it is-- as well as other points that supplement the case made in this post.)

The other con for the Protean is:



> Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.


While timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature might require rolling a natural 20 in a real game of D&D, _OOTS_ is a story. In this story, the unlikely result will happen if it proves best for the story (and I dont just mean in the sense that Elan believes a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing, but also in what Rich has said himself about writing the story). It may be _unlikely_, but it _is_ possible without changing the rules of how a Protean works in 3.5.

It is also entirely possible that such a shapeshift does not require a lucky roll, given a Protean's intelligence, wisdom, and knowledge of other creatures. It may not be knowledge MitD consciously realized he had, but by willing himself to save O-Chul, he manifested exactly what he needed to manifest.

In fact, that timely shapeshift explains why MITD _doesnt_ teleport the hobgoblin in #699: As the hobgoblin says, MITD is just shouting synonyms at me, while MITD would have to shapeshift to actually teleport the hobgoblin (and probably still doesnt realize thats what he did or how his power works; see I didnt do it! And if I did do it, I didnt know I could do it until I did it!).

My point is, the Protean is _capable_ of explaining the Escape scene without adding any new information, qualification, or template, or without bending, fudging, or discarding the mechanical rules of the species. It may be _unlikely_ that your typical Protean would do so, but *unlikely under the rules is not the same as impossible under the rules.* Unlike the Uvuudaums mechanical con (or the other creatures with even more cons), the rules of a Proteans mechanics do not have to change to explain anything about MITD.

*Thus, both of the potential "cons" of the Protean as a fit do have a possible mechanical explanation without altering any of the rules of 3.5 or how the creature works.* I dont think you can say that about any of the other proposed creatures. Those explanations may be the product of unlikely behavior for a Protean, but stories like this are generally about unlikely people. (It's pretty unlikely that a wildly dysfunctional, somewhat hastily assembled party of mid-level characters would grow into the team that saves the world, but, here we are.) 
.
So I believe the drawbacks against the Protean have been addressed above. In this section, Ill talk about the Protean as actively the best fit for the big scenes.

*Part 2: The Positive Case*

I believe that not only does the Protean fit all the big scenes, but it generally goes beyond meeting what the agreed minimum requirements to fit them are, and in fact is often the best fit for them of all the creatures on the FBS. Ill give some examples.

2a. The Tower Scene 

Now, 3Power actually gave me an idea with this one a while back (I think in thread XII), although perhaps not the idea he expected. In his case for a creature (the Ha-Naga, IIRC), he suggested that the Tower scene is a joke that can be handwaved away, a bit of Looney Tunes cartoon physics. Well, I agree with the Looney Tunes part, but come to a different conclusion. The physics of the scene are so ridiculous-- MITD tries to hit Miko as softly as possible and knocks her _and_ her horse through the wall and some substantial distance away-- that it's far more likely that MITD has preposterously high strength than that he barely meets the threshold we've established. Thus, the higher the strength, the better fit the creature. Every candidate listed in the FBS list with D&D stats has a strength in the 30s (except the Black Slaad which is listed as 42). The Protean has STR 53. It is significantly higher strength than any of the other FBS creatures. It is thus by far the most likely species on the list that a creature of such could attempt to hit someone as weakly as possible and still send them cartoonishly flying through a solid wall and hundreds of feet away.

2b. The Circus Scene

I think the sheer _variety_ of reactions in the Circus Scene make far more sense for a Protean than anything else on the FBS list. Most of the other creatures on the FBS list should be terrifying, sure, but we see everything from horror to nausea to fascination (both with it being "beautiful" and "never seen anything like it") to the goblin kids cheering him on. The Protean's constantly shifting form is the best fit to cause all of those reactions (including its 34 CHA qualifying it as "beautiful" in someone's eyes); anything that keeps a consistent form is more likely to evoke similar reactions from each audience member, rather than such a wide variety of reactions. Individual reactions from the crowd can be explained by other creatures' traits (Hunting Horror's stench of Nausea, Uvuudaum's confusion aura if you really fudge it, they could all be described as "horrible"), but only the Protean has the traits necessary to cover such a gamut of reactions.

In addition, I also believe that a Protean best explains why the goblin children are always excited to go back to the circus-- they get a new experience every time.

This doesnt conflict with my art explanation for MITDs eyes; MITD is told by his circus handler that what he does every show is stand on the stage and get gawked at. If those are his instructions, then he is probably not using a move action to hold a form when hes on stage, merely standing still. (We dont see his eyes when hes on stage, after all-- we see that entire scene from his perspective until he goes back into the darkness.)

While the Escape scene is not one where the Proteans ability to perform it stands out compared to other species, it does have the capacity to do so (as I explained in part 1), and its really a binary yes/no question as to whether a species can. The Protean can.

Items 4-7 in the list of characteristics necessary to be on the FBS list arent scenes, they are traits, and the Protean does possess them all.

For the record, its not in the Big Scenes list, but the Stomp scene would also fit a Protean, given that a Protean can manifest a limb to stomp with, that MITD is later shown in the Escape scene to be capable of great powers when it focuses intently, and that the Protean has a ridiculously high strength, the highest on the FBS list. (Note that MITDs reaction to his stomp is, similar to his defense of the Escape scene, that he didnt know he could do that; this also fits for a Protean thats just discovering it can shapeshift into certain creatures to do specific things.)

*So, the Protean isnt lacking in any of the characteristics necessary for the FBS list, and in two of the three big scenes is the best fit for the scene of any creature proposed.*

I believe that covers the case for why the Protean is the best fit for the MITD mechanically. Now, since OOTS is a story, I want to touch on the storytelling aspect of MITDs species.

*Part 3: The Thematic Case*

While the species of the MITD is a guessing game that can be deduced by clues, I also believe that, first and foremost, Burlew is telling a story with _The Order of the Stick_, and that his criteria for choosing MITDs species in the first place would involve that species being thematically relevant to the story.

Of course, it helps if we agree on what that story _is_. From my perspective, there are two key elements here:

3a. MITDs relationship with Xykon and Redcloak

MITD, for the first six hundred-odd strips or so, seems to believe Xykon and Redcloak are his friends (despite the evidence to the contrary). Given MITDs love of social gatherings like tea parties, and the stress he feels from performing in the circus (let alone how people whove seen him openly call him ugly, horrifying, etc.), hes probably someone who wants to be liked, likes to have friends, struggles to fit in, and is insecure enough that he thinks anyone who will accept him is his friend. Darth Paul has a good post on this topic, to which I'll add that he didn't leave the circus because he didn't "[want] to be rude about it." MITD is a people-pleaser.

This is my explanation for why he constantly holds his form to have two eyes: His two best friends have two eyes each (or, you know, did) and he wants to fit in. Grey Wolf had an excellent post in the previous thread detailing this idea further, and expanding another thematic point in favor of the Protean: Part of MITDs struggle has been, as an ever-changing creature, to resist change in order to fit in and find friendship. It would also explain why MITD is perceived as being so lazy; if he's always using a move action to hold a form, it takes him twice as long to do things as other people. (Of course, if you accept one of the other explanations for his depiction, he doesnt even have to be holding a form.)

3b. MITDs relationship with O-Chul

I think the interactions between MITD and O-Chul are the most revealing parts for the theme of MITDs story. Given those interactions and how MITD has changed since then, heres what I think: The story of the MITD is that of a juvenile growing up, someone who is content to be led around by other people and have them think for him and give him orders as long as he thinks theyre his friends. O-Chul begins to prod him into challenging those ideas, not only the idea that Xykon and Redcloak are his friends but also the idea that he should just do what other people say and not think for himself.

O-Chuls prodding and friendship leads the MITD to save him in the Escape Scene, and from then on MITD has been following his own agenda independent of Xykon and Redcloak (and apparently without their awareness). The MITDs journey is one of realizing the things O-Chul has taught him, realizing the immense things he is capable of when he tries, focuses, and follows his own conscience rather than the orders of others.

(The Proteans high stat block also explains why he is able to learn and change so quickly; weve seen signs of his intelligence in the comic, hes just never really applied himself before #661. Intelligence and wisdom are the lowest of the Proteans stats, but theyre still 20 and 21, respectively, which is still remarkably high when compared to typical creature stats, aside from adventuring wizards and clerics. Plus, the Protean has Detect Thoughts at will, which would work to explain how MITD has acquired some of his knowledge.)

The reason I think the Protean is the most relevant is because it is the one suggestion for the FBS that has the power to will itself to change its physical form, not merely its inner character. In fact, from what I can tell, the Protean can consciously choose creatures to shapeshift or partially shapeshift into. (This explains how a Protean MITD achieves the Escape Scene, the first step in his self-actualization.)

Thus, I believe that the MITD's journey is, quite literally, toward the lesson of You can be whatever you want if you put your mind to it, and that the Protean is the creature that fits this theme. (Other people have expressed this idea in other posts better than I am here, but searching in threads seems to be somewhat broken right now on the forums, so I couldnt find those posts.) This also explains why O-Chul doesnt think the MITD would believe his theory on what he is (if he is correct); for someone who has been as passive as MITD has his whole life, learning he is not just capable of setting his own course, but in fact a creature of great and immense power, capable of virtually anything, would indeed come as a shock.

Even if you dont find this particularly convincing, I cant think of any thematic relevance to the story that any of the other FBS creatures hold. Theres always the more general Even pure Evil can be changed by a resolute Goodness, but that doesnt particularly apply for any creature more than the others (or not enough to outweigh their cons), plus that theme makes MITDs story more about O-Chul than himself. Based on some of Richs comments about character choices, I believe MITDs story is about _his_ decisions, not simply as a foil to show O-Chuls Goodness (which weve seen many times over anyway). 

*The MITDs story is about finding the willpower to follow your own heart and mind and change who you are.* What better represents the ability to make that change than a Protean, a creature that can literally physically change what it is?

Thus, in addition to the Protean having the strongest D&D 3.5 mechanical argument for species fit, I believe it also has the most thematic relevance to MITDs story.

*Conclusion*

In conclusion: After reviewing all the available evidence, I believe the MITD is a Protean. I believe Protean is the species that is both the best positive fit and least negative fit for all of MITDs scenes: That is to say, its combination of powers best explain MITD's displayed behavior, and it is also the species that least requires any fudging or bending of the D&D 3.5 rules to work (or the rules of space and time). I also believe, perhaps more importantly, that Protean makes the most sense for MITDs character journey and growing awareness of his own capabilities. Ive reviewed the decade-plus of research and argumentation that has gone into compiling this thread, and I believe this is where the evidence points, substantially and better to the Protean than any other creature proposed.

----------


## Crusher

I was paying attention this time!

*Tracking MitD guesses*

We've been thinking about the MitD's identity for quite some time now. The unmasking is probably not nigh, but its definitely getting closer. Since these threads sometimes run for a long time (a recent one ran for almost 2 years), its entirely possible the great unveiling will occur before this thread finishes so its time to get formal about it.

This spot will track the guesses of anyone who cares to make a guess, along with when they made the guess (and I'll probably track people's guess history as well, unless people object). If you want to make a guess, you can either post it in the thread or message me. I'm pretty thorough about reading the thread, but I miss things so feel free to remind me.

For now, I'll organize them chronologically by guess but I may switch to alphabetical. Date is whatever day the forum tells me it was when the note was posted. Also, I'm already getting tired of typing out "Athasian Nightmare Beast", so it will be abbreviated ANB. You can guess up to three candidates.

List of guesses

*Spoiler: There are quite a few*
Show


DaggerPen - Protean 5/21/16, Protean > Hunting Horror 5/28/16, Protean > ANB > Hunting Horror 4/29/2018
Ranagrande - Extremely heavily templated Giant Space Hamster 5/22/16
Grey_Wolf_c - Protean > Zodar > Aboleth 5/22/16, Grey_Wolf_c - Protean > Slaad > Zodar 6/22/22
Kish - Infernal > Slaad 5/22/16, Infernal > Slaad > Protean 7/17/16, Slaad > Protean 8/31/18
Ron Miel - Púca 5/22/16
Sniffnoy - Uvuudaum 5/22/16
TraceHyde - Protean > Barghest > Something copywrited 5/23/16
Magesmiley - Prismatic Dragon (very young or young) 5/23/16
Michaeler - heavily templated Protean 5/23/16, young Protean = something Snarl-related (perhaps a Protean) 4/20/2018
RWeird - Protean > Neh-Thalggu > Uvuudaum 5/23/16
nihil8r - Glabrezu 5/24/16
Yanisa - ANB 5/27/16
Crusher - ANB > Prismasaurus > Glabrezu 5/27/16, ANB > Glabrezu > Neh-Thalggu 6/22/2016, ANB > Glabrezu > Slaad 1/11/17, Slaad > Glabrezu 1/23/17, Slaad > Glabrezu > Xenocrysth 7/16/20, Slaad > Glabrezu > ANB 10/26/21, Slaad > ANB > Very Old Sapphire Dragon 7/6/22, Slaad > Ancient Sapphire Dragon 7/6/22 (yes, same day), Slaad > Ancient Sapphire Dragon > Loculi 10/12/22
HarryMcB - Protean 5/28/16
Lord Bingo - Zodar 5/29/16
Lombard - Couatl 5/31/16, Li Lung (templated) 7/11/18, Li Lung with Wilder levels 4/10/19
Quartz - ANB 5/31/16, ANB = Uvuudaum 4/25/20
halfeye - Boojum 6/1/16, Black Hole > Boojum 7/24/18, Nightcrawler 3/19/19, Boojum > Nightcrawler > Black Hole 5/1/20
Ruck - Protean > ANB > Snorlax 6/2/16, Protean > Uvuudaum > ANB 12/3/19
GM_3826 - Protean > ANB > Uvuudaum 6/2/16
dancrilis - Grey Render 6/3/16
Vendanna - Half-dragon 6/3/16, Half-dragon/demon 11/15/17
IrishMusician - Protean 6/22/16
thereaper - Protean 6/22/16
ReaderAt2046 - Protean > Zodar > Carbosilicate Amorph 6/22/16, Protean > ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 7/17/16, ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 11/17/17, Xenocrysth > Carbosilicate Amorph 8/1/20
theinsulabot - ANB 6/22/16
Onyavar - Protean 6/22/16
Dark Matter - Protean 6/22/16
Humanist Geek - Protean > ANB > something templated 6/22/16
littlebum2002 - Protean 6/23/16, Slaad > Protean 8/25/2017
voiceofreason - the author 7/1/16
SirKazum - Slaad 7/12/16
Bestigle - Protean 7/12/16
ShiningWrath - ANB 7/17/16, Dread Linnorm (runty, minus a head) 4/28/18
Qwertystop - Protean > Zodar 7/17/16
Hardcore - Imentesh (its a kind of Protean) 7/17/16, Snorlax > Protean 5/1/20, Imentesh > Snorlax 10/24/22
Darth V - Protean 7/20/16, Protean > White Slaad turning into Black Slaad upon reveal > Snorlax 10/18/22
Peelee - Protean 7/20/16
Throknor - Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 7/28/16, Aboleth Mage -> Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 8/5/20
Knight.Anon - Young Titan 8/3/16
Rosstin - Protean 11/22/16
Outliar - ANB 11/23/16
Darth Paul - Slaad 1/20/17, Slaad > ANB 11/19/17, ANB > Uvuudaum 1/12/19, ANB > Protean, 1/13/19, Protean 3/31/19
Kythia - Slaad 8/9/17
Sniccups - Slaad = ANB 10/15/17
Thermophille - Slaad (White > Black) 11/6/17
Monation - Protean 11/15/17
Zenzis - Glabrezu 11/15/17
Shashakiro - ANB 11/15/17, Slaad 8/28/18
Clockshock - ANB 11/20/17
Djinnocide - Enveloper 7/6/18
Jaxzan Proditor- Protean > Zodar 7/11/18
godsflunky - Protean (because of the nice character-development resonances) 7/11/18
woweedd - Protean = Zodar 7/12/18
redgoblin - Hephaestus - 7/18/18
Father Miles - ANB > Protean > Snorlax 7/19/18
3Power - Ha-Naga 7/28/18, Ha-Naga > anything not on FBS list > Zodar 3/20/19
Calavera - Zeus 8/15/18
Synesthesy - pure Black Slaad 9/16/18
Qzin - Snarl, Jr 9/29/18
SpoonR - Baby Deity 9/29/18
Riarra - Slaad > Protean 9/30/18
EmperorSarda - Kandra/Mistwraith 10/22/18
thelivingmonkey - Glabrezu 10/25/18, Protean > Glabrezu > Snorlax 3/13/19
Mightymosy - Something not yet guessed > Protean > Carbosilicate Amorph 1/8/19, Something not yet guessed > Protean 3/31/19
NobleCuriosity - Protean > ANB 1/12/19
The Aboleth - ANB 3/5/19, Protean > ANB 12/5/19
Son of a Lich! - Protean 3/7/19
Mariele - Protean = ANB 3/14/19
Squire Doodad - Protean > Slaad 3/21/19, Protean > Xenocrysth 10/15/21
Jineon - 9-times blinded Beholder 3/29/19
Sir_Norbert - Uvuudaum 3/29/19
cinderrain - Protean 3/29/19
KrankenWagon - ANB > Black Slaad 3/29/19
Angrith - ANB > Hunting Horror 3/30/19
Mad Humanist - Protean 3/30/19
locksmith of io - Protean > ANB 3/31/19
gooddragon1 - Galeb Duhr 6/18/19
BasilisksSoldier - ANB - 8/30/19
pwning doodes - Uvuudaum 9/25/19
Fish - thesaurus 10/1/19
Schroeswald - Red Cloak's niece 10/1/19
Rollin - Protean 12/5/19
DLcygnet - Protean 12/10/19
Scizor - Protean 12/16/19, Xenocrysth > Protean 8/3/20
Iskar Jarak - Protean 4/1/20
trtl - Protean > Gazebo 4/4/20
Emanick - Frankenstein 4/5/20, "Something not guessed" > White Slaad > Protean 10/15/21
DavidBV - Prismatic Dragon - Kinda guessed on 5/10/20 and kinda guessed on 1/20/10 (prior to the contest starting, making it kind of a gray area)
Thales - Protean - 6/15/20
Kastor - ANB (the old one) 6/18/20, Corpse Tearer Linnorm 11/10/22
catagent101 - Protean > Snorlax - 6/23/20, Protean > Xenocrysth > Snorlax 7/16/20
LadyEowen - ANB 6/24/20
Doug Lampert - Wile E. Coyote > Cabosilicate Amorph > Redcloak's Niece 6/24/20
JonahFalcon - Very Young Obsidian Dragon 7/5/20
Neponde - Protean 7/16/20
Charybdis - Protean 7/18/20
Ariko - Xenocrysth 7/19/20
Jaziggy - Xenocrysth > Protean 7/21/20, Loculi 6/28/22
Baine - Protean 8/4/20
Blue Dragon - Snarl Jr 3/22/21
Timy- Protean 12/1/21
Jervis - a small psychic giant 6/16/22, Linnorm 6/18/22
chy03001 - Pit Fiend 6/21/22
IthilanorStPete - Protean 6/22/22
Eric the White - Barghast (version from Dragon #26) 6/22/22
Carl - Neh-Thalggu 6/23/22
silversaraph - baby or young ANB 6/27/22
Laurentio III - Loculi > Protean > amnesiac Proteus (from Marvel comics) 8/4/22, Loculi = Protean = Glabrezu 8/10/22
ff7hero - Slaad 8/4/22
diremage - Glabrezu 8/20/22
puzzler7 - Protean > Slaad 9/28/22
Elanfanforlife - Protean > Loculi = Snorlax 10/3/2022
Zenfrodo - Onyx Dragon 10/10/2022
Psyren - Protean 10/19/22
TaiLiu - Protean 10/26/22
Mike Havran - Protean 12/7/22
brian 333 - Dao 12/22/22
Tzardok - Templated Cipactli 12/22/22
Tubercular Ox - Hunting Horror 12/22/22
Beni-Kujaku - Psionic Old Li Lung 12/28/22


I will also compile a list of the top vote-getters, and running totals for their scores, which I will update infrequently. If you have one guess, it gets 1 point. Two ordered guesses split 0.6/0.4 and three ordered guesses split 0.5/0.3/0.2. Two non-ordered guesses "It is either X or Y, with no favorite" will be awarded 0.5/0.5 and three non-ordered guesses will get 0.33/0.33/0.33. Guessing "X is my first choice then Y and Z are tied for second" will be scored 0.5/0.25/0.25. And "X or Y are tied for my first choice, but Z is clearly my 3rd choice" will be scored... Um, hmm. My normal process falls apart with that but the other way gives a breakdown of 0.4/0.4/0.2. That feels about right and I'll probably go with it but if it comes up, I'll think about it more. 

If you guess more than three, I'll discard the 4th and after if possible. If not possible ("its one of these 5...") then I'll exclude the entire guess.

In the ancient past, when dinosaurs roamed the forums, I used a modestly different scoring system. However, it had a slight improportionality in points awarded based on numbers of monsters guessed. Over time it slowly started bugging me, so I eventually fixed it and here we are.

Update - Last updated 10/12/22

Its been 356 days since the last update, and for perhaps the 5th consecutive update the Protean has, again, modestly extended its commanding lead. The ANB and Slaad also modestly extended their leads over the secondary pack of candidates, and while the Slaad gained slightly on the ANB for 2nd place it is in no immediate danger of passing it. Also worth noting the "Dragon" quasi-candidate had a really strong update and is now arguably the last member of the lead pack (which you can tell because I'm talking about them in this paragraph rather than the next one) rather than the strongest member of the trailing pack.

The last update's hot new thing, the Xenocrysth, surprisingly lost some ground this time and fell behind an apparently revitalized Glabrezu and the "Deity" quasi-candidate. The Uvuudaum, Zodar and "Deity" have the exact same scores as last time ("Deity" moved ahead of Xenocrysth because the Xenocrysth lost ground, not because "Deity" moved. Unlike Glabrezu which actually gained points.), which may not be interesting but we fondly hold them in our hearts anyway. 

While noting the votes, I saw Loculi received a surprisingly large number of votes (more than one) so I totaled them and since I was doing Loculi I figured I should do Barghast as well. The Barghast also had more than one vote and has even had more than one vote for a few years now, so if I was counting the Loculi I could deny the Barghast its recognition no longer. Not surprisingly, the two are second to last and last on the league tables, respectively, but at least they're on it now. Finally, you'll note some candidates have more significant figures in their scoring than they used to. This is a result of people making guesses which result in scores utilizing another significant figure. This has always been acceptable and has been in the explanation of how the scoring works for years, so its sort of an odd fluke it's never happened before.

As a reminder, the "Dragon" and "Deity" quasi-candidates aren't specific candidates but are instead aggregations of all votes cast for any kind of Dragon or any specific or general Deity. They're grouped, added up, and presented because I find it mildly interesting.

The ranking currently goes:

#1 - Protean (or some variant of Protean) - 38.53
#2 - ANB - 13.5
#3 - Slaad - 10.5
#X - "Dragon" - 8.3
#4 - Uvuudaum - 4.5
#5 - Glabrezu - 3.83
#Y - "Deity" - 3.0
#6 - Xenocrysth - 2.9
#7 - Zodar - 2.8
#8 - Loculi - 1.83
#9 - Barghast - 1.3

----------


## Peelee

> Since we are at page 49, and we haven't really seen much movement on the vote front for a bit, I've gone ahead and started the new thread. Please form either an orderly line or a chaotic mob as your alignment calls for and make your way there.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Grey Wolf


I like the implication that British is an alignment.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> I like the implication that British is an alignment.


It isn't? You've got British on one end, and Scottish on the other, orthogonal with the Welsh-N. Irish continuum.

GW

----------


## Shining Wrath

As someone whose ancestry is Scottish, Irish, and English, I can have a civil war without leaving the comfort of my own body.

Especially because half of the Scottish part is Clan Wallace. First ancestor to reach the United States was a Wallace - a sheep thief who was given the choice of transport or hanging in the 17th century.

----------


## Laurentio III

> As someone whose ancestry is Scottish, Irish, and English, I can have a civil war without leaving the comfort of my own body.


While I respect the internal turmoil of your soul, we italian people perfectioned the art of town-to-town hate and impenetrable dialect, up and beyond inciting a war between two thriving cities as revenge for the theft - out of spite - of a single wooden bucket.

So, as I don't know it any fellow countryman is present, I feel obliged to form a mere man messy mob.

----------


## Fyraltari

> It isn't? You've got British on one end, and Scottish on the other, orthogonal with the Welsh-N. Irish continuum.
> 
> GW


Thus my distate for the alignment system is historically justified.
(Edit: also, because you wrote "British" when you meant "English" I think you might be wise to check the sheep you will eat in the future for concealed explosives.)



> While I respect the internal turmoil of your soul, we italian people perfectioned the art of town-to-town hate and impenetrable dialect, up and beyond inciting a war between two thriving cities as revenge for the theft - out of spite - of a single wooden bucket.
> 
> So, as I don't know it any fellow countryman is present, I feel obliged to form a mere man messy mob.


I never really thought about it, but that explains a lot about the Roman Empire.

----------


## Crusher

> As someone whose ancestry is Scottish, Irish, and English, I can have a civil war without leaving the comfort of my own body.
> 
> Especially because half of the Scottish part is Clan Wallace. First ancestor to reach the United States was a Wallace - a sheep thief who was given the choice of transport or hanging in the 17th century.


Wow, did HE make a bad choice.

----------


## Throknor

> As a reminder, the "Dragon" and "Deity" quasi-candidates aren't specific candidates but are instead an aggregation of all votes cast for any kind of Dragon and any specific or general Deity. They're grouped, added up, and presented because I find it mildly interesting.
> 
> The ranking currently goes:
> 
> #1 - Protean (or some variant of Protean) - 38.53
> #2 - ANB - 13.5
> #3 - Slaad - 10.5
> #X - "Dragon" - 8.3
> #4 - Uvuudaum - 4.5
> ...


You might find it interesting but it's a bit glaring to see two of my choices sandwiched between them.
 :Roy:

----------


## Hardcore

I  always found it hard to do those alignment tests, and I am convinced it's my Asperger that is the problem. Questions need be put the right way to not cause confusion. 
Sure, tests specifically made for group is not realistic, but would have been nice to take.

----------


## Shining Wrath

> While I respect the internal turmoil of your soul, we italian people perfectioned the art of town-to-town hate and impenetrable dialect, up and beyond inciting a war between two thriving cities as revenge for the theft - out of spite - of a single wooden bucket.
> 
> So, as I don't know it any fellow countryman is present, I feel obliged to form a mere man messy mob.



I have read Dante and remember well the fratricidal nature of Italian politics. Including hate over how "Si" was pronounced IIRC.

----------


## Synesthesy

> While I respect the internal turmoil of your soul, we italian people perfectioned the art of town-to-town hate and impenetrable dialect, up and beyond inciting a war between two thriving cities as revenge for the theft - out of spite - of a single wooden bucket.
> 
> So, as I don't know it any fellow countryman is present, I feel obliged to form a mere man messy mob.


Two mere man messy mobs!

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> (Edit: also, because you wrote "British" when you meant "English" I think you might be wise to check the sheep you will eat in the future for concealed explosives.)


No, I really did mean to write British, because otherwise the joke wouldn't work (since I was riffing off a post that mentioned British already). If it makes you feel better, pretend it's not a reference to Great Britain but to (French) Brittany, who mostly settled over in the lower half of the island of Great Britain. "Lesser" British, if you will.

GW

----------


## Keltest

> No, I really did mean to write British, because otherwise the joke wouldn't work (since I was riffing off a post that mentioned British already). If it makes you feel better, pretend it's not a reference to Great Britain but to (French) Brittany, who mostly settled over in the lower half of the island of Great Britain. "Lesser" British, if you will.
> 
> GW


I believe the term for that group would be Britons? I think. Not to be confused with the Britons who live on Great Britain.

----------


## Fyraltari

> No, I really did mean to write British, because otherwise the joke wouldn't work (since I was riffing off a post that mentioned British already).


Oh, okay. But that hardly works in opposition with Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh.




> If it makes you feel better, pretend it's not a reference to Great Britain but to (French) Brittany, who mostly settled over in the lower half of the island of Great Britain. "Lesser" British, if you will.
> 			
> 		
> 
> I believe the term for that group would be Britons? I think. Not to be confused with the Britons who live on Great Britain.


You're thinking of "Br*e*ton"*. Also Grey Wolf has it backwards, Britanny was settled by folks coming from Great Britain at the end of the fifth century, which is why its French name is _Bretagne_ which also how we call Britain (therefore we sometimes call Brittany _Petite Bretagne_, Small Britain) and why they're called Bretons which is how we call Britons. For the sake of completeness, we call British, _britanniques_ and the original Small Britain was Ireland.

*If any _Elder Scrolls_ fan wondered where the people of High Rock got their name, now you know (and we've translated it to Bréton to keep it a little bit distinct).

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> Oh, okay. But that hardly works in opposition with Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh.


On the contrary, it works because in everyday parlance, "British", when it comes to stereotypes such as the ones I was referencing (again, based on the previous post where "British" stereotypes to "orderly queueing") is functionally synonymous with "English" (or maybe even merely North bank Londoners, AFAIK), to the enormous annoyance of the other groups, especially the Scottish.

And now the poor frog is thoroughly dissected. RIP frog.

GW

----------


## Tzardok

It may have been a vivisection; the frog may still be alive. Right? Right?

...

Wait, why did I think that was a good thing again?

----------


## Fyraltari

> On the contrary, it works because in everyday parlance, "British", when it comes to stereotypes such as the ones I was referencing (again, based on the previous post where "British" stereotypes to "orderly queueing") is functionally synonymous with "English" (or maybe even merely North bank Londoners, AFAIK), to the enormous annoyance of the other groups, especially the Scottish.


Which is why you should worry about explosive devices. Should I put my frog next to yours?

----------


## Shining Wrath

Alas, the history of the Western Isles shall never be froggotten.

----------


## Crusher

> On the contrary, it works because in everyday parlance, "British", when it comes to stereotypes such as the ones I was referencing (again, based on the previous post where "British" stereotypes to "orderly queueing") is functionally synonymous with "English" (or maybe even merely North bank Londoners, AFAIK), to the enormous annoyance of the other groups, especially the Scottish.
> 
> And now the poor frog is thoroughly dissected. RIP frog.
> 
> GW


Ha! A marvelous back-and-forth play on the title of the thread! 


That was intentional, right?

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> Ha! A marvelous back-and-forth play on the title of the thread! 
> 
> 
> That was intentional, right?


It did indeed cross my mind. But nevertheless I persevered.

GW

----------


## Peelee

> Alas, the history of the Western Isles shall never be froggotten.


Isle of Lucy will never be forgotten.

----------


## NobleCuriosity

> While noting the votes, I saw Loculi received a surprisingly large number of votes so I totaled them and since I was doing Loculi I figured I should do Barghast as well. Not surprisingly, they're second to last and last on the league tables, respectively, but at least they're on it now.


WhatÂs a Loculi? I canÂt seem to find that monster by googling and theyÂre not in the threadÂs opening posts.


Edit: This was very poorly phrased. They do have a two sentence blurb on the proposed ideas section, it just doesnÂt give me enough information to know what one is.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> theyÂre not in the threadÂs opening posts.


Yes it is?

GW

----------


## Ruck

> (regardless of how accurate his psychoanalyzing of the author is, although for the record I believe him to be completely off-base in all his reasoning)





> Yeah, i'll admit Ox, whatever the merits of the Horror (and I will acknowledge it fits two of the three scenes reasonably well), i'm not down with the weird psychoanalysis stuff.


Yeah, this is one of those things where you really have to be right for it to have much use, and not only is there scant little to psychoanalyze Rich on here, and a lot of extrapolations from that which I for one don't think are really that accurate about Rich's process, but I also think it's leading to conclusions that don't make much sense and that I'm still not even sure should specifically favor one monster over another.

The psychoanalysis kind of comes off to me as working backwards from the conclusion in an attempt to justify the Hunting Horror.

----------


## Peelee

> This is one of those things where it gets tricky because D&D hit points are not meat points, and theres no rules for blasting somebody through a wall, cartoonish person shaped hole or otherwise, while still leaving them alive because thats not really something that you could reasonably expect to do no matter how strong you are.


I don't disagree, I just also don't think it's an important point to focus on, but that's just me.

----------


## Keltest

> I don't disagree, I just also don't think it's an important point to focus on, but that's just me.


No, I agree there. I dont think the wall is a useful data point beyond "The monster hits really hard." in a vague way. Its actually almost fascinating in that the more you examine it closely the more it becomes useless for translating into mechanics, either D&D or physics.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> This is one of those things where it gets tricky because D&D hit points are not meat points, and theres no rules for blasting somebody through a wall, cartoonish person shaped hole or otherwise, while still leaving them alive because thats not really something that you could reasonably expect to do no matter how strong you are.


No, but there are rules for how much damage you take if your meld into stone spell ends while you are inside solid rock, and it's 5d6 flat damage & expulsion out one end, which is sufficiently comparable. 5d6 is nothing to sneeze at, but also something Miko would be able to shrug off with a few potions, and probably less than the fall damage she took (which I assume is the max 20d6, for falling 40 feet or more).

GW

----------


## Keltest

> No, but there are rules for how much damage you take if your meld into stone spell ends while you are inside solid rock, and it's 5d6 flat damage & expulsion out one end, which is sufficiently comparable. 5d6 is nothing to sneeze at, but also something Miko would be able to shrug off with a few potions, and probably less than the fall damage she took (which I assume is the max 20d6, for falling 40 feet or more).
> 
> GW


True, but then the MITD also hit her somewhere in there, and we know he didnt do nothing because Miko beat him in the game.

----------


## Doug Lampert

> This is one of those things where it gets tricky because D&D hit points are not meat points, and theres no rules for blasting somebody through a wall, cartoonish person shaped hole or otherwise, while still leaving them alive because thats not really something that you could reasonably expect to do no matter how strong you are.
> 
> I think concluding that Rich decided to ignore the rules to make his point is fair and reasonable here, from the cartoon Miko hole if nothing else. He's done it before for the sake of a joke or drama. Its the subsequent follow up conclusions by Ox that are on pretty shaky logical grounds.


Dungeon Crasher can smash their foe into a wall hard enough to damage the wall. IIRC, both the character and the wall take the same damage, and we've seen that Roy (for example) is tougher than some stone structures.

That one is strictly by the rules, but in the same area we have this. Which is not by the rules, but does show someone getting hit hard enough to fly through a stone wall. A cat has 3 strength, belt is +6, probably +2 strength from animal companion. So, when it's funny, Rich is willing to let "extreme strength" knock someone through a wall for values of extreme which are only 11 (or maybe Mr. Scruffy is an elite cat and has 16 strength, it could be true). But in that case we've just had an obvious magical augmentation to strength, and further the combatants are small enough that 11 really is extremely strong.

Rich is willing to let very high strength smash someone through the walls, and he's shown us this.

----------


## Keltest

> Dungeon Crasher can smash their foe into a wall hard enough to damage the wall. IIRC, both the character and the wall take the same damage, and we've seen that Roy (for example) is tougher than some stone structures.
> 
> That one is strictly by the rules, but in the same area we have this. Which is not by the rules, but does show someone getting hit hard enough to fly through a stone wall. A cat has 3 strength, belt is +6, probably +2 strength from animal companion. So, when it's funny, Rich is willing to let "extreme strength" knock someone through a wall for values of extreme which are only 11 (or maybe Mr. Scruffy is an elite cat and has 16 strength, it could be true). But in that case we've just had an obvious magical augmentation to strength, and further the combatants are small enough that 11 really is extremely strong.
> 
> Rich is willing to let very high strength smash someone through the walls, and he's shown us this.


Im pretty sure that the hole was already there when the wolf went flying, otherwise that would be an incredibly useful data point.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> in the same area we have this. Which is not by the rules, but does show someone getting hit hard enough to fly through a stone wall. A cat has 3 strength, belt is +6, probably +2 strength from animal companion. So, when it's funny, Rich is willing to let "extreme strength" knock someone through a wall for values of extreme which are only 11 (or maybe Mr. Scruffy is an elite cat and has 16 strength, it could be true). But in that case we've just had an obvious magical augmentation to strength, and further the combatants are small enough that 11 really is extremely strong.


Hole was there already. All the cat did was knock the wolf through empty air.

GW

----------


## Doug Lampert

> Im pretty sure that the hole was already there when the wolf went flying, otherwise that would be an incredibly useful data point.





> Hole was there already. All the cat did was knock the wolf through empty air.
> 
> GW


Drat.

Regardless, you can knock someone flying backward with impact if you are strong enough in comic, which isn't RAW possible without particular feats, and Mr. Scruffy does not qualify for Awesome Blow (too small).

So, we have definite evidence that people can be used to break walls, and that hard hitting, magically strong creatures can knock their foes flying.

----------


## Crusher

> Actually, that criticism is correct: no monster (or, more generally, no process) could transfer to Mikos body the energy/momentum needed into it to go from a resting state, to flying out over the horizon, passing through a brick wall in the process, without inevitably turning Mikos body into a pulp.


Indeed. Something I've sadly learned while looking into superhero physics (such as they are) is that the force it takes to knock someone up in the air even a small distance with a near-instant strike rather than a longer-duration shove is probably enough to seriously injure them (assuming a normal person in the real world). Like, it wasn't nearly as dramatic, but when Roy slaps Miko off the wall defending Shinjo, sure, they make a point of noting he was doing non-lethal damage and he hit her a lot less hard than MitD, but in real life that much force would still have turned her into jelly.

Hmm. I'm sure we've talked about this before, but I think its been a while. Those scenes are pretty close together (374 vs 409). If Miko had a nickel every time she was knocked extremely hard off her feet into a wall over that ~48 hour period she'd have 2 nickels. Which isn't a lot, but its still odd it happened twice. Roy at that point was very strong and probably going close to full-out, but he also didn't have his belt of giant strength yet (right?). I wonder if the point was just demonstrating the contrast and saying "Roy, strong as he is, is a LOT weaker than MitD".

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> So, we have definite evidence that people can be used to break walls, and that hard hitting, magically strong creatures can knock their foes flying.


... yes? Was that ever in dispute? I mean, my usual go-to for this is the Roy-Miko flying hit, because by bouncing off the wall rather than through it it also forms the basis for "and needs to be stronger than Roy" rule of thumb we have been using for the past decade and a half. We just cannot put a number to how much damage Miko took to go through the wall. And while I accept there are no RAW for any of this, I think the 5d6 is an acceptable match if a damage is wanted. Not that it much matters, mind you, because I also think looney toons physics are in effect, and thus breaking through walls and falling for great distances does minimal damage if it is funny.




> Roy at that point was very strong and probably going close to full-out, but he also didn't have his belt of giant strength yet (right?)


Correct. He got it in the desert arc.

Grey Wolf

----------


## Tzardok

Incidentally, @Grey_Wolf_c, would you please add the cipactli to the list of proposed ideas? I just noticed that it's still missing.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> Incidentally, @Grey_Wolf_c, would you please add the cipactli to the list of proposed ideas? I just noticed that it's still missing.


Added. In my defence, we've only just crossed the 20th page, and I am still on holidays. But still, my apologies. Also, if you are still looking for a template, I'd imagine that pseudonatural should cover most of its deficiencies other than size.

GW

----------


## lio45

> Indeed. Something I've sadly learned while looking into superhero physics (such as they are) is that the force it takes to knock someone up in the air even a small distance with a near-instant strike rather than a longer-duration shove is probably enough to seriously injure them (assuming a normal person in the real world). Like, it wasn't nearly as dramatic, but when Roy slaps Miko off the wall defending Shinjo, sure, they make a point of noting he was doing non-lethal damage and he hit her a lot less hard than MitD, but in real life that much force would still have turned her into jelly.
> 
> Hmm. I'm sure we've talked about this before, but I think its been a while. Those scenes are pretty close together (374 vs 409). If Miko had a nickel every time she was knocked extremely hard off her feet into a wall over that ~48 hour period she'd have 2 nickels. Which isn't a lot, but its still odd it happened twice. Roy at that point was very strong and probably going close to full-out, but he also didn't have his belt of giant strength yet (right?). I wonder if the point was just demonstrating the contrast and saying "Roy, strong as he is, is a LOT weaker than MitD".


Exactly. The physics-compliant way to throw someone over the horizon (if youre strong enough for that) with their body intact is to accelerate them progressively. Having said that, I now recall Tarquin does exactly this to Durkon in their encounter outside Girards Pyramid.

----------


## Tzardok

> Added. In my defence, we've only just crossed the 20th page, and I am still on holidays. But still, my apologies. Also, if you are still looking for a template, I'd imagine that pseudonatural should cover most of its deficiencies other than size.
> 
> GW


No worries.  :Small Smile:  I'm currently in a bind regarding the template, and the main problem is still the teleportation thing. Because of that, I'm tending to Phrenic, as it is the only template of sufficient teleportiness and age, but for the time being I'm putting that on hold.

----------


## lio45

> No, I agree there. I dont think the wall is a useful data point beyond "The monster hits really hard." in a vague way. Its actually almost fascinating in that the more you examine it closely the more it becomes useless for translating into mechanics, either D&D or physics.


Yeah, of course, the Tower Scene is Looney Tunes Physics, were all in agreement on that. 

Id be even more generic than you in my takeaway from that scene: rather than MitD hits really hard, its MitD is able to transfer/infuse, instantly, a large quantity of momentum to his target. 

It could be, for example, low STR but superpowerful Jedi-style telekinesis powers, activated by accident. 

If I have a power whose effect is automatically knock the target of my focus over the horizon and I dont control my powers well, suddenly it becomes plausible that I would hit a homerun while genuinely attempting to bunt.

----------


## Crusher

> Yeah, of course, the Tower Scene is Looney Tunes Physics, were all in agreement on that. 
> 
> Id be even more generic than you in my takeaway from that scene: rather than MitD hits really hard, its MitD is able to transfer/infuse, instantly, a large quantity of momentum to his target. 
> 
> It could be, for example, low STR but superpowerful Jedi-style telekinesis powers, activated by accident. 
> 
> If I have a power whose effect is automatically knock the target of my focus over the horizon and I dont control my powers well, suddenly it becomes plausible that I would hit a homerun while genuinely attempting to bunt.


Yeah, its actually somewhat less implausible than it is in the real world. Judge aside, intending to hit something soft and knocking it out of the park is ridiculous. However, not realizing you have cast Telekinetic Push augmented with 40 additional power points twice/day  and accidentally using it on someone could be pretty spectacular. If a monster with such an ability  is ever found, please let us all know.

Edit - And I concur, the speed of the energy transference is the entire issue. Grabbing someone your size and lifting them off the ground (accelerating them faster than gravity) over a few seconds is relatively trivial. Doing the same in 1/100th of a second with a punch is very not trivial.

Edit2 - Hmm. Ill note Telekinetic Push is a Wilder ability, just like Psionic Teleport. A really tough, weird looking monster with a bunch of Wilder levels/abilities could work without being extremely strong. Terrible at pulling, near Deity-grade pushing.

----------


## lio45

In the real world its just not something that ever happens. In the entire history of baseball, huh, that guy knocked it out of the park while bunting is tied with that halfling just hit me in the face with a pineapple. 

You need either magic (uncontrolled power) or else out-of-this-world STR (again, not perfectly controlled either) for a genuine bunting attempt to turn into an accidental homerun. 

(I have no doubt that MitD was genuinely trying. Thats crystal clear. So the scenario where he could only achieve what we see with a deliberate application of his full STR and there are no other powers available is, IMO, not satisfying that scene. If an entry has insufficient STR, then it must have other powers.)

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## Solauren

My theory - 
The MITD is connected to the first Pantheon of gods that Snarl killed.   

If will turn out the Snarl imprisoned them, not killed them, and when the Rifts appeared, he managed to slip out somehow before the Order of the Scribble sealed them up.

----------


## Savil

I have an idea how using a spell/ability may be qualified as hitting lightly (though mind you, I still think that raw strength is the best explanation).

Games sometimes feature spells or abilities that produce a random effect (likely any possible spell in a game). Often, for the majority of time, this spell does nothing useful or produces very little effect - which is why MitD could use it for 'hitting lightly' - he may have toyed with it earlier and saw that it never does anything tangible. However, in rare cases the 'random' spell actually makes very potent effect - and dictated by the plot, it did exactly this here.

Honestly, I don't really buy this, and I don't think it actually helps to find candidates but it is an alternative explanation for some superpower attack when trying to hit lightly, better than 'he was being stupid'

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> My theory - 
> The MITD is connected to the first Pantheon of gods that Snarl killed.   
> 
> If will turn out the Snarl imprisoned them, not killed them, and when the Rifts appeared, he managed to slip out somehow before the Order of the Scribble sealed them up.


The gods in OotS require worship & belief to survive. The lost pantheon hasnt had any for so long they cant have survived. Besides, the existence of green quidity would render the current plot line about reaching an understanding with RC irrelevant, which I find unlikely in the extreme.

I also wonder what any of all that has to do with the MitD. A connection would require MitD to have somehow survived billions of worlds, which, again, doesnt seem at all likely.

GW

----------


## Peelee

> The gods in OotS require worship & belief to survive. The lost pantheon hasnt had any for so long they cant have survived. Besides, the existence of green quidity would render the current plot line about reaching an understanding with RC irrelevant, which I find unlikely in the extreme.
> 
> I also wonder what any of all that has to do with the MitD. A connection would require MitD to have somehow survived billions of worlds, which, again, doesnt seem at all likely.
> 
> GW


Also two clerics who had explicitly never even thought of an Eastern Pantheon, much less heard of them, were shocked to learn of their existence, so it is also unlikely that two big game hunters weould not only know about them but recognize one of them.

----------


## WanderingMist

> Yeah, its actually somewhat less implausible than it is in the real world. Judge aside, intending to hit something soft and knocking it out of the park is ridiculous.


Not really? This world does run on RPG mechanics so if he happened to "roll a 1" so to speak in his attempt to hit lightly, he totally could have accidentally applied his full strength.

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## Tzardok

> Also two clerics who had explicitly never even thought of an Eastern Pantheon, much less heard of them, were shocked to learn of their existence, so it is also unlikely that two big game hunters weould not only know about them but recognize one of them.


Also, the cojones on those big game hunters. Not only able to recognize the "natural habitate" of a Greek God, but also able to catch it in a cardboard box and sell it to a circus.

----------


## Peelee

> Not really? This world does run on RPG mechanics so if he happened to "roll a 1" so to speak in his attempt to hit lightly, he totally could have accidentally applied his full strength.


What mechanic would this be? Typically hitting under your power can just be stated or provides begatuves (eg hitting for nonlethal damage), and does not have a separate d20 roll where the lower the number the harder you hit.

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> Not really? This world does run on RPG mechanics so if he happened to "roll a 1" so to speak in his attempt to hit lightly, he totally could have accidentally applied his full strength.


I like this, sort of, but I think what is happening is more narrative.

If my best friend in the whole world told me he was going behind a curtain to hit a strength tester as lightly as possible, then rang the bell, Id accuse him of cheating.

If he rang the bell so hard that it flew away into the distance, I would assume he rigged something ahead of time.

If God Himself came down and said, No, TB, your friend is honest and would never lie to you or try to con you, then I would assume a third party was responsible for conning him and me both, possibly God Himself, since Hes suddenly a part of this story.

I think Rich is smart enough to anticipate people like me, but also other people in this thread, so he calibrated his art to set expectations.

If Rich intended the giant hit to say that this was the Monster in the Darks lightest hit, but also really, really strong, then he couldve tried harder.  He couldve taken the mountain range away, or put the tower in view from Mikos landing spot, or just made her leave an imprint on the wall without going through it.  She couldve exclaimed, That was its lightest hit!? and fled remembered her duty was to return to Azure City.

But if Rich intended the giant hit to say that some third party, perhaps the God of Not Being Aware of Ones Capabilities, was conning both the audience and the Monster in the Dark, theres nowhere to go.  If through the wall and over the horizon is ignorable in the quest to see this scene as the Monster in the Darks lightest hit, a second mountain range is not going to help.  Nor would putting Miko in orbit or on the moon.  Looney Tunes Physics covers all of those.  Its unfalsifiable.

----------


## Throknor

> What mechanic would this be? Typically hitting under your power can just be stated or provides begatuves (eg hitting for nonlethal damage), and does not have a separate d20 roll where the lower the number the harder you hit.


Just to be clear it also has to have occurred twice in a row since the horse goes through the wall as well.  And her horse is apparently on the heavy side for a horse if her comments on his weight are to be believed.

And I just noticed that however far he punched them (and from the art I think it's implied to be far) he got there in the time it took them to drink some potions.  That's probably more for comedic effect than an indication of his top speed, but I never noticed it before.  (Though I do remember discussions about how swords/daggers don't appear to hurt him but he can get papercuts on his tongue.)

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> (Though I do remember discussions about how swords/daggers don't appear to hurt him but he can get papercuts on his tongue.)


In Call of Cthulhu the damage reduction rules say some monsters have wounds from weapons close as soon as they're made instead of having impenetrable skin or anything like that.  Just saying.

----------


## Keltest

> In Call of Cthulhu the damage reduction rules say some monsters have wounds from weapons close as soon as they're made instead of having impenetrable skin or anything like that.  Just saying.


Yeah, but that doesnt explain why swords wouldnt hurt but papercuts would.

----------


## Tzardok

Besides, Damage Reduction as instant regeneration is a thing in D&D too. The vampire in the example of how DR works, for example.

----------


## WanderingMist

> What mechanic would this be? Typically hitting under your power can just be stated or provides begatuves (eg hitting for nonlethal damage), and does not have a separate d20 roll where the lower the number the harder you hit.


I don't know details of D&D mechanics, basically all of my knowledge of the rules is from this comic. I just figured that critically failing an attempt to hit lightly was as good a possibility as any other. Also, what's a "begatuve"?

----------


## Tzardok

> I don't know details of D&D mechanics, basically all of my knowledge of the rules is from this comic. I just figured that critically failing an attempt to hit lightly was as good a possibility as any other. Also, what's a "begatuve"?


I'm pretty sure he meant negatives.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> I don't know details of D&D mechanics, basically all of my knowledge of the rules is from this comic. I just figured that critically failing an attempt to hit lightly was as good a possibility as any other.


3.5 doesn't have a critical failure mechanic.

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## Kish

> In Call of Cthulhu the damage reduction rules say some monsters have wounds from weapons close as soon as they're made instead of having impenetrable skin or anything like that.  Just saying.


If that was the situation, he wouldn't be saying "that tickles!" or acting like he doesn't notice attacks at all. It would be all, "Ow! *healed* Ow! *healed*" So that's a point against your case, not for it.

If you want to hit for nonlethal damage, you get -4 to hit. This is a begatuve (or four of them).

----------


## lio45

Pretty sure any DM would allow someone normal to hit lightly without having to roll. 

I can turn lights on day after day, week after week, year after year, without breaking the light switch or ripping it from the wall 1/20th of the time because Ive mistakenly applied all my physical strength to it. 

Any decent GM would allow a character to enter a room and turn the lights on without asking for a roll and making them fail it on a 1. 

There are actions so easy theyre just automatic. If a character want to slap a bound enemy in the face, they just do that, they dont have to roll and risk a 1/20th chance of killing the person.

----------


## woweedd

> I like this, sort of, but I think what is happening is more narrative.
> 
> If my best friend in the whole world told me he was going behind a curtain to hit a strength tester as lightly as possible, then rang the bell, Id accuse him of cheating.
> 
> If he rang the bell so hard that it flew away into the distance, I would assume he rigged something ahead of time.
> 
> If God Himself came down and said, No, TB, your friend is honest and would never lie to you or try to con you, then I would assume a third party was responsible for conning him and me both, possibly God Himself, since Hes suddenly a part of this story.
> 
> I think Rich is smart enough to anticipate people like me, but also other people in this thread, so he calibrated his art to set expectations.
> ...


...What? No, that...That seems like the most plausible reading of the scene. MITD tried to hit lightly, his attempt was still really strong, the implication being "he is very strong".

----------


## Ruck

> ...What? No, that...That seems like the most plausible reading of the scene. MITD tried to hit lightly, his attempt was still really strong, the implication being "he is very strong".


Agreed-- more specifically than "plausible," I'll add it's the most direct and straightforward reading of the scene. While I don't have time to address the whole post, I can get a little more specific on a couple of points:




> If Rich intended the giant hit to say that this was the Monster in the Darks lightest hit, but also really, really strong, then he couldve tried harder.  He couldve taken the mountain range away, or put the tower in view from Mikos landing spot, or just made her leave an imprint on the wall without going through it.


How would those changes have better communicated the idea? I mean "how" as literally as possible: In what way would any of those three changes to the comic art have made it more obvious that MitD was trying to hit as lightly as possible and still hit with preposterous strength?




> She couldve exclaimed, That was its lightest hit!? and fled remembered her duty was to return to Azure City.


Was MitD saying "Aww, man! I lost twice. I suck" not enough?

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## Fyraltari

> I think Rich is smart enough to anticipate people like me, but also other people in this thread, so he calibrated his art to set expectations.


The Giant made Laurin's character designed to be as "unsexed-up" as possible and was very surprised when people assumed she wanted to extort sex from Tarquin.

The Giant made a dragonborn joke by having Roy be grossed out by a lizardwoman who used surgery to have breasts and was very sorry to learn that some trans readers felt attacked.

The Giant said he regrets cutting a scene of Crystal murdering Giro and antagonizing Haley because many people reacted more negatively to Haley's shower-ambush than he thought they would. 

I feel like you are severely overestimating the Giant's ability to predict the Internet.

Also, "[character] tries to use very little force but still does something that obviously requires an absurd level of strength" is a *very* common way to show a charactzr as superstrong.

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## Crusher

Its been a while, but I've got a creature to propose. Its not original and long-time followers of these threads probably know it pretty well. But newer folks might not know it as well and its been a while since we've talked about it seriously. After thinking about psionic abilities for a few days I think it has potential.

So, I present for your consideration:

*The Neothelid*

For background, the Neothelid is a gigantic, tentacled, psionic worm-like creature that's the result of mindflayer reproduction gone horribly wrong (as opposed to when it goes horribly... right, I guess, and produces a mindflayer like its supposed to). The Neothelid was one of the first monsters considered for MitD and it was either on the original FBS list or at least one of the very first ones. However, when we started looking seriously at how big MitD could realistically be (fit in box/under umbrella) its Gargantuan size was a problem. Sure, we could shrink it to Huge but its STR is already exactly 30 so any reduction (from size reduction) would make it far too low, and it was removed from the FBS list. I have a solution for that.

Specifically, I propose an immature/runty and thus Large sized Neothelid, so it takes a -16 STR penalty.

On to the tests:

*Circus Scene:* Its a giant, tentacled worm and weird enough looking we considered it a "pro" at the time.

*Escape Scene:* It has Psionic Teleport, Trace Teleport, and Read Thoughts all usable at will as a 15th level manifester. So it can handle the teleport and between Read Thoughts on V and... maybe via Trace Teleport, figure out where to send V and O'Chul.

*Tower Scene:* First, the little stuff. Its defenses are fine. 5/- DR, 312 HP, and AC 28. If we assume Miko and Belkar both rolled badly to hit and damage, its good enough. Not a plus, but in the past we considered it acceptable. 

Now, the real question "How did it knock Miko and Windstriker that far with a 14 STR?" And the answer is: it meant to punch them softly, but instead accidentally Telekinetically Thrust'ed them away. Neothelids use their psionic powers as 15th level manifesters, meaning they can throw things up to 150' (if we assume Miko's very sturdy and along with her gear weighs 150-175 lbs) doing 7d6 to the tower wall. I don't remember the math on breaking walls, but if its a thin wall and MitD rolled well, its probably enough to break through. The weight limit is 500 lbs which could be an issue for Windstriker, though MitD could have used a bunch of power points to raise the weight limit, plus, who knows? Maybe Paladin steeds are weirdly light.

*Impossible Category?* Its an aberration, and thus needs to eat, sleep, breathe, etc. 

*Existed before strip #100?* It existed in 2e so its old enough.

*Strong Enough?* Well... no. So, that's a problem, though I suggested an alternative.

*Vulnerable to mind-affecting abilities?* - Yep.

*Pros:*
- Four big tentacles but no hands, so it can hold multiple items at the same time, but wouldn't be very dexterous with them.
- Has a variety of Telekinetic powers, all of which have more capability than its STR. If its used to using those, it might be better at pushing than pulling.
- Even a 14 STR would make it pretty strong by the standards of Goblins and Hobgoblins, so even using its normal STR it'd be a decent choice for lifting heavy objects or pulling ropes. With its telekinetic powers everyone might think its a lot stronger than it really is.
- Has "Swallow Whole" as an ability, can swallow up to Medium size creatures.
- Normally only understand Undercommon, and rarely communicate in any meaningful way.
- Its pretty slow, 20'/round but has the feat Speed of Thought which gets it up to 30'/round.
- Has both Body Equilibrium and Psionic Levitate, which let it walk on snow without breaking through or leaving a trace and levitate up to ledges, respectively.
- 7 DEX so its pretty clumsy, 16 INT and 15 WIS so its pretty smart.
- Would be really, really small for its species.

*Cons:*
- Might not have any eyes or be able to see, though it has 100' blindsight.
- No ranks in spellcraft, not sure how it'd have understood the ritual. Maybe it read minds?
- Not nearly strong enough, though there's an alternative.

----------


## Kish

Does the neolithid have any powers worth mentioning if psionics aren't in the campaign? Redcloak said he wasn't sure the campaign he was in was using psionics, years after he met the creature in the darkness and declared him really powerful.

Also, hobgoblins have a +2 Strength bonus. Whether goblins still have their base -2 Strength penalty, which usually goes with Small size, when they've been made medium, is questionable, but hobgoblins most certainly should not be viewing "he's two points stronger than our racial average" as "really strong."

----------


## Yendor

> - Normally only understand Undercommon, and rarely communicate in any meaningful way.


Just a general observation: that the hunters are surprised by him speaking can be explained by a monster that doesn't usually speak, or one that doesn't speak in a recognizable way. Since the Monster is shown speaking before #100, we should be able to rule out monsters that _can't_ speak. Also, he only needs an INT of 12 to get bonus languages.




> *Cons:*
> - Might not have any eyes or be able to see, though it has 100' blindsight.


"It's not my fault I can't see anything in all this darkness." would argue against having blindsight.




> Also, hobgoblins have a +2 Strength bonus. Whether goblins still have their base -2 Strength penalty, which usually goes with Small size, when they've been made medium, is questionable, but hobgoblins most certainly should not be viewing "he's two points stronger than our racial average" as "really strong."


There's that scene in the circus escape where he triggers the strength tester, which at least implies a Strength of at least 18.

----------


## lio45

Would we explain the Earthquake by telekinesis? Im not sure it works, since MitD clearly triggers it by stomping the ground  either extraordinary, close-to-Neutronium-Golem-caliber STR, or some other Earthquake Power that can get activated (but still with a stomping component).

The biggest con IMO, almost a deal-breaker, is Redcloak, the epitome of the perfectly-informed nerd, whos on record knowing what MitD is, not even knowing whether theyre using psionics in this world.

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## Grey_Wolf_c

> Just a general observation: that the hunters are surprised by him speaking can be explained by a monster that doesn't usually speak, or one that doesn't speak in a recognizable way. Since the Monster is shown speaking before #100, we should be able to rule out monsters that _can't_ speak. Also, he only needs an INT of 12 to get bonus languages.


Unless it was a lampshade hanging that the creature shouldn't be able to speak at all, and yet it does.

GW

----------


## Crusher

Hrm. I'm a little under the weather and did a poor job on the pros/cons. I might elaborate on those a bit.




> Does the neolithid have any powers worth mentioning if psionics aren't in the campaign? Redcloak said he wasn't sure the campaign he was in was using psionics, years after he met the creature in the darkness and declared him really powerful.


The bulk of its power is in its psionics, but even dramatically shrunk down its still reasonably formidable in melee and has a nasty breath attack (15d10 acid damage, with a DC30 save for half).




> Also, hobgoblins have a +2 Strength bonus. Whether goblins still have their base -2 Strength penalty, which usually goes with Small size, when they've been made medium, is questionable, but hobgoblins most certainly should not be viewing "he's two points stronger than our racial average" as "really strong."


Good point, 14 wouldn't be that strong to a hobgoblin. I suppose it might be used to using its telekinetic abilities (it has a few) making it look very strong, but never realized it had Telekinetic Thrust and accidentally used it on Miko.




> "It's not my fault I can't see anything in all this darkness." would argue against having blindsight.


True, or being blind.




> Would we explain the Earthquake by telekinesis? Im not sure it works, since MitD clearly triggers it by stomping the ground  either extraordinary, close-to-Neutronium-Golem-caliber STR, or some other Earthquake Power that can get activated (but still with a stomping component).


Stomping without legs isn't great, though it has big tentacles and maybe a tail. But, yeah, very few things get over the Earthquake hurdle. Maybe accidentally telekinetically thrusting? Eh. 




> The biggest con IMO, almost a deal-breaker, is Redcloak, the epitome of the perfectly-informed nerd, whos on record knowing what MitD is, not even knowing whether theyre using psionics in this world.


Oh, nah. Neothelids are the result of a mindflayer reproductive mishap and there was a mindflayer in Dorukan's dungeon, probably under Xykon's control. Redcloak presumably knew about it, so the existence of neothelids shouldn't be a stretch.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Neothelids use their psionic powers as 15th level manifesters, meaning they can throw things up to 150' (if we assume Miko's very sturdy and along with her gear weighs 150-175 lbs) doing 7d6 to the tower wall. I don't remember the math on breaking walls, but if its a thin wall and MitD rolled well, its probably enough to break through.


7d6 wouldn't be enough to break a wall. The weakest walls have 90 hp per ten-foot section, which even if you ignore hardness is more than twice the maximum of 7d6. It's also possible to smash through a wall with a Strength check rather than by doing damage, but the weakest stone wall have a break DC of 35.






> There's that scene in the circus escape where he triggers the strength tester, which at least implies a Strength of at least 18.


I don't think that scene says anything about MitD's Strengths score. He doesn't hit the strength tester, he's in a runaway wagon that collides with it.

----------


## Crusher

> 7d6 wouldn't be enough to break a wall. The weakest walls have 90 hp per ten-foot section, which even if you ignore hardness is more than twice the maximum of 7d6. It's also possible to smash through a wall with a Strength check rather than by doing damage, but the weakest stone wall have a break DC of 35.


That assumes its 1' thick and for the full 10x10 section. Ballpark, I'd say Miko and Windstriker both go out through the same 10'x10' section, so neither of them took out its full hp, and if it was, say, 5" thick instead of 1', it'd have 38hp and thus be breakable!

----------


## InvisibleBison

> That assumes its 1' thick and for the full 10x10 section. Ballpark, I'd say Miko and Windstriker both go out through the same 10'x10' section, so neither of them took out its full hp, and if it was, say, 5" thick instead of 1', it'd have 38hp and thus be breakable!


Unfortunately, the watchtower wall is clearly at least a full foot thick. And I don't see how Windstriker subsequently going through the same section of the wall would influence how much damage Miko would have had to do to the wall to break through it.

----------


## Ruck

> I don't think that scene says anything about MitD's Strengths score. He doesn't hit the strength tester, he's in a runaway wagon that collides with it.


True, but it also only goes up to 18 anyway, and almost certainly any reasonable MitD candidate would be significantly higher than that.

Speaking of the Tower Scene, for my own curiosity and since I don't know enough about D&D mechanics in practice, I decided to look up the Protean again:

It's got 53 strength (or 45 if you reduce it a size category per the guidelines we've been using)Its base attack bonus is listed as +33Its standard attack is listed as "Slam +54 melee (2d6+21/19-20)"
I don't know what all the numbers mean exactly, so I was wondering if someone who did could enlighten me on just how strong it would hit / how much damage it would do even if it tried to hit as weakly as possible (which I would assume is like rolling intentional 1s, although I still don't know exactly what the numbers after the dice mean).

----------


## Kish

Attack roll: 1 twenty-sided die plus 54.

Damage: Two six-sided dice plus 21.

/19-20 means: if the attack roll is a natural 19 or 20, it's a critical threat. The protean would make another attack roll. If that second attack roll is a hit, then the damage from the protean's attack is doubled.

A by-the-book protean, rolling a 2 to hit (anyone except a god auto-misses on a 1) and 1s on both damage dice, would hit a target with an Armor Class of 56 or below for 23 damage.

----------


## Ruck

Thanks, Kish, that clears a lot up. How does the BAB of +33 factor into this?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Thanks, Kish, that clears a lot up. How does the BAB of +33 factor into this?


Base Attack Bonus is one of the numbers used to calculate a creature's attack bonus, and a few other things as well. It generally doesn't matter, since it's already been included in the commonly used derived stats that are part of the stat block, but it's included in monster stat blocks for completeness, to make it easier to tinker with them, and because it does occasionally need to be referenced.

----------


## Ruck

> Base Attack Bonus is one of the numbers used to calculate a creature's attack bonus, and a few other things as well. It generally doesn't matter, since it's already been included in the commonly used derived stats that are part of the stat block, but it's included in monster stat blocks for completeness, to make it easier to tinker with them, and because it does occasionally need to be referenced.


Thanks. Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, then, the BAB +33 is already factored into the Slam +54?

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> Thanks. Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, then, the BAB +33 is already factored into the Slam +54?


Correct. The BAB forms, unsurprisingly, the base of it. Then you add other bonuses such as strength, size modifier and others, and you should end with the same +54.

GW

----------


## ti'esar

> *Pros:*
> - Would be really, really small for its species.


Given that the neothelid is the product of mind flayer reproduction gone wrong - and admittedly that _is_ more complicated than, say, human reproduction - wouldn't his "dad" BE a mind flayer in that case? Which would be smaller than the MitD (though not by much), not much larger.

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> Given that the neothelid is the product of mind flayer reproduction gone wrong - and admittedly that _is_ more complicated than, say, human reproduction - wouldn't his "dad" BE a mind flayer in that case? Which would be smaller than the MitD (though not by much), not much larger.


A mind flayer's spawn would never know for certain who its parent is.  The mind flayers spawn like fish into the elder brain's pool.  Most of the spawn get eaten by other spawn, and only the most lucky spawn reach the stage where older mind flayers take them out of the pool and make them into mind flayers.

When adventurers wipe out a mind flayer colony but forget to purge the elder brain pool, the spawn continue eating each other until one grows big enough to leave the pool on its own.  This is the neothelid.  So since a neothelid's existence depends on its parent being exterminated, it's even less likely  to know its father.

Assuming the information in the Illithiad is still accurate for 3.5e.

----------


## Keltest

> A mind flayer's spawn would never know for certain who its parent is.  The mind flayers spawn like fish into the elder brain's pool.  Most of the spawn get eaten by other spawn, and only the most lucky spawn reach the stage where older mind flayers take them out of the pool and make them into mind flayers.
> 
> When adventurers wipe out a mind flayer colony but forget to purge the elder brain pool, the spawn continue eating each other until one grows big enough to leave the pool on its own.  This is the neothelid.  So since a neothelid's existence depends on its parent being exterminated, it's even less likely  to know its father.
> 
> Assuming the information in the Illithiad is still accurate for 3.5e.


It would however allow for the mitd to perceive his father as larger without the father actually being larger. Neothelids are much much larger than a regular tadpole.

----------


## Tubercular Ox

I dont know if this is helping or hurting, but:

1.  Adult mind flayers have no concept of family and no memories of living in the pool.  Neothelids, dunno.
2.  When I said, spawn like fish, I meant theres an egg stage.  There may or may not be any mind flayers standing around the pool to be seen when a tadpole hatches.
3.  Tadpoles have animal intelligence.  They retain animal intelligence until theyre allowed to eat their first sentient brain, which is what gives them sentience.  Neothelids have obviously bypassed this in some way, but not until after their colony was wiped out or else they wouldve made it to mind flayer status.
4.  Mind flayers havent a single bowel for tadpoles.  The Elder Brain compels them to care for the pool and spawn more mind flayers, but the Elder Brain also eats tadpoles for all its nutrition, so it was a threatening presence in the early life of any tadpole that later became a neothelid.

Maybe a neothelid could mistake the all-consuming hostility of the elder brain for a father figure, in which case, yes, the elder brain is much bigger than a tadpole.

----------


## Fyraltari

I wouldn't put much stock in the "father" comment. When you're very young everybody seems big, regardless of their actual size, and MitD's "father" might not have been a blood relative at all, simply someone who care for him for a while.

The way I view it, this simply indicates that the MitD was indeed a baby at some point, and so does not belong to any species that comes into being adult sized (like Beholders do, I believe?).

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> I wouldn't put much stock in the "father" comment. When you're very young everybody seems big, regardless of their actual size, and MitD's "father" might not have been a blood relative at all, simply someone who care for him for a while.
> 
> The way I view it, this simply indicates that the MitD was indeed a baby at some point, and so does not belong to any species that comes into being adult sized (like Beholders do, I believe?).


Why, _I, Tyrant_ is another book I own!

Nah, they have a life cycle.  Generally Mommy shoos the kids out the door once she gets too disappointed that they're not clones of her.

----------


## Neponde

> I wouldn't put much stock in the "father" comment. When you're very young everybody seems big, regardless of their actual size


My 4 year old regularly informs me that I am really big.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Why, _I, Tyrant_ is another book I own!


Don't know.




> Nah, they have a life cycle.  Generally Mommy shoos the kids out the door once she gets too disappointed that they're not clones of her.


You sure? I found this, allegedly from a monster guide for 5th edition:



> When a beholder sleeps, its body goes briefly dormant but its mind never stops working. [] Sometimes a beholder's dreams are dominated by images of itself or of other beholders (which might or might not actually exist). On extremely rare occasions when a beholder dreams of another beholder, the act creates a warp in reality- from which *a new, fully formed beholder springs forth* unbidden, seemingly having appeared out of thin air in a nearby space. This "offspring" might be a duplicate of the beholder that dreamed it into existence, [] a different variety of beholder, such as a death kiss or a gazer (see "Beholder-Kin"), [or] a truly unique creature, such as could be spawned only from the twisted imagination of a beholder, with a set of magical abilities unlike that of its parent. In most cases, the process yields one of the three principal forms of the beholder: a solitary beholder, a hive, or a death tyrant.


Emphasis mine.



> My 4 year old regularly informs me that I am really big.


People keep telling me my maternal grandfather, who died when I was little was a diminutive man, I'd tower above today, but those are lies. Lies I say! I distinctly remember the man being a kilometer tall at the very least.

----------


## Peelee

> People keep telling me my maternal grandfather, who died when I was little was a diminutive man, I'd tower above today, but those are lies. Lies I say! I distinctly remember the man being a kilometer tall at the very least.


I thought Paris had height restrictions. As that is the only city in France clearly he must have been only 31 meters.

----------


## b_jonas

> People keep telling me my maternal grandfather, who died when I was little was a diminutive man, I'd tower above today, but those are lies. Lies I say! I distinctly remember the man being a kilometer tall at the very least.


See xkcd 255: Subjectivity.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I thought Paris had height restrictions. As that is the only city in France clearly he must have been only 31 meters.


What makes you think my grandfather lived in a city?

----------


## Peelee

> What makes you think my grandfather lived in a city?


He didn't cook grits so he wasn't from the country. :Small Amused:

----------


## Fyraltari

> He didn't cook grits so he wasn't from the country.


Is this some kind of American joke I am too French too understand?

Also, do not presume what my grandfather did or did not cook.

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> You sure?


Well, my reference is 2nd Edition, so there!

Honestly _I, Tyrant_ and _Illithiad_ are from the same series, and I love both books, so I was shocked a beholder came up so close to an illithid.  That's all.

I'm even steven now on trying to give a copy of _I, Tyrant_ to Rich.  It's got multiple chapters on building a beholder lair, like Tucker's Kobolds for Beholders.  Or maybe he already has it, the trick of using a magical barrier that an antimagic eye can dispel is in there.  OTOH, the trick's not that clever, and Rich is, so maybe he doesn't.

----------


## Kish

> You sure? I found this, allegedly from a monster guide for 5th edition:


OotS ain't 5th Edition.

Whether one considers it an improvement or not is subjective, but in 3.5ed, beholder births are a lot closer to biological standard. (All beholders are hermaphroditic and capable of giving birth, once. And once only because the beholder birth process actually involves removing the uterus.)

And if a death tyrant shows up, it's an undead beholder, as in a beholder that lived and died and got brought back like Xykon, Malack, and Tsukiko's wights, not a creature that was born from a beholder's nightmare.

----------


## Peelee

> Is this some kind of American joke I am too French too understand?
> 
> Also, do not presume what my grandfather did or did not cook.


I highly recommend you check out _My Cousin Vinny_. It is a shockingly accurate portrayal of American legal procedure, to the point that several scenes are frequently used in law schools as textbook examples (as well as highlighting many parts of being a lawyer are not actually taught in law schools).

Also it's really funny.

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> OotS ain't 5th Edition.
> 
> Whether one considers it an improvement or not is subjective, but in 3.5ed, beholder births are a lot closer to biological standard. (All beholders are hermaphroditic and capable of giving birth, once. And once only because the beholder birth process actually involves removing the uterus.)
> 
> And if a death tyrant shows up, it's an undead beholder, as in a beholder that lived and died and got brought back like Xykon, Malack, and Tsukiko's wights, not a creature that was born from a beholder's nightmare.


I believe you 100%, but if there's a supplement for beholders in 3.5 I'd like to read it?

----------


## Kish

Lords of Madness.

----------


## Doug Lampert

> Would we explain the Earthquake by telekinesis? Im not sure it works, since MitD clearly triggers it by stomping the ground  either extraordinary, close-to-Neutronium-Golem-caliber STR, or some other Earthquake Power that can get activated (but still with a stomping component).
> 
> The biggest con IMO, almost a deal-breaker, is Redcloak, the epitome of the perfectly-informed nerd, whos on record knowing what MitD is, not even knowing whether theyre using psionics in this world.


Psionic monsters can be used in games that don't use psionics. You just treat the Psi-like abilities as Spell-like abilities.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> OotS ain't 5th Edition.
> 
> Whether one considers it an improvement or not is subjective, but in 3.5ed, beholder births are a lot closer to biological standard. (All beholders are hermaphroditic and capable of giving birth, once. And once only because the beholder birth process actually involves removing the uterus.)


So, even under ideal conditions the rate of replacement is 1? Or do they give birth to litters?

GW

----------


## InvisibleBison

> So, even under ideal conditions the rate of replacement is 1? Or do they give birth to litters?
> 
> GW


Yes, a beholder can have up to twelve offspring, though the parent typically kills most of them for being too physically different from it; "only a handful survive" (Lords of Madness p. 40).

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> the parent typically kills most of them for being too physically different from it.


Just like _I, Tyrant_!

I gotta get Lords of Madness.

----------


## lio45

> So, even under ideal conditions the rate of replacement is 1? Or do they give birth to litters?
> 
> GW


Obviously they MUST be giving birth to litters, otherwise the species is guaranteed to be heading to extinction as individuals will inevitably occasionally get killed without having a chance to reproduce first.

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> Obviously they MUST be giving birth to litters, otherwise the species is guaranteed to be heading to extinction as individuals will inevitably occasionally get killed without having a chance to reproduce first.


I dunno, there's plot in having a precise number to kill, even if it's huge.

----------


## Fyraltari

> OotS ain't 5th Edition.
> 
> Whether one considers it an improvement or not is subjective, but in 3.5ed, beholder births are a lot closer to biological standard. (All beholders are hermaphroditic and capable of giving birth, once. And once only because the beholder birth process actually involves removing the uterus.)
> 
> And if a death tyrant shows up, it's an undead beholder, as in a beholder that lived and died and got brought back like Xykon, Malack, and Tsukiko's wights, not a creature that was born from a beholder's nightmare.


Well replace beholder by any D&D 3.5. that spawns adult-sized of your choosing. The point being that MitD is unlikely to be any of those.

----------


## GrayGriffin

> I'm even steven now on trying to give a copy of _I, Tyrant_ to Rich.  It's got multiple chapters on building a beholder lair, like Tucker's Kobolds for Beholders.  Or maybe he already has it, the trick of using a magical barrier that an antimagic eye can dispel is in there.  OTOH, the trick's not that clever, and Rich is, so maybe he doesn't.


Okay, so you've gone from trying to psychoanalyze Rich to deciding that apparently he needs your help to know how to write his story, despite him having planned it in advance and having worked out himself what tricks to use?

In case that wasn't clear, you really, really, shouldn't send a content creator you only know by vague proxy a random book, and you _especially_ shouldn't send it with the intention of telling him that he should write from it.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I highly recommend you check out _My Cousin Vinny_. It is a shockingly accurate portrayal of American legal procedure, to the point that several scenes are frequently used in law schools as textbook examples (as well as highlighting many parts of being a lawyer are not actually taught in law schools).
> 
> Also it's really funny.


...

Not your best sales' pitch, friend.

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> you _especially_ shouldn't send it with the intention of telling him that he should write from it.


What "he should write from it"?  There's such a thing as enjoying books.

And I would wait until a Q&A to ask if he's read it, and that would be trying.  You know, because he's a content creator who doesn't need my help to write the story, but might enjoy other people's perspective on things he's writing about.

----------


## Peelee

> ...
> 
> Not your best sales' pitch, friend.


Let me rephrase. It's a comedy headed by Joe Pesci playing a wise-guy lawyer who has to represent his cousin in a murder trial in backwoods Alabama, as his first ever trial since he graduated law school six years prior but has been unable to pass the bar (exam that allows you to actually practice law).

It's a well loved movie that typically shocks people when they hear that is is often cited as incredibly legally accurate since it's effectively a courtroom comedy and contains many antics, such as the titular lawyer Vinnie falling asleep during prosecutor's opening arguments and on being woken up, making his own opening argument as "Everything that guy just said is bull****. Thank you."

Highlights from the lengthy "legal accuracy" header on its Wikipedia page:

*Spoiler*
Show


Lawyers have praised the accuracy of My Cousin Vinny's depiction of courtroom procedure and trial strategy, with one stating that "the movie is close to reality even in its details. Part of why the film has such staying power among lawyers is because, unlike, say, A Few Good Men, everything that happens in the movie could happenand often _does_ happenat trial".Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals judge Richard Posner praised My Cousin Vinny as being particularly rich in practice tips: how a criminal defense lawyer must stand his ground against a hostile judge, even at the cost of exasperating the judge, because the lawyer's primary audience is the jury, not the judge; how cross-examination on peripheral matters can sow serious doubts about a witness's credibility; how props can be used effectively in cross-examination (the tape measure that demolishes one of the prosecution's eyewitnesses); how to voir dire, examine, and cross-examine expert witnesses; the importance of the Brady doctrine; how to dress for a trial; contrasting methods of conducting a jury trial; and more.In "Ten Things Every Trial Lawyer Could Learn From Vincent La Guardia Gambini", District of South Carolina judge Joseph F. Anderson.... concluded that Lynn and scriptwriter Dale Launer "have given our profession a wonderful teaching tool while producing a gem of a movie that gives the public at large renewed faith in the common law trial and the adversarial system as the best way to determine the truth and achieve justice".in 2019.... The Chief Judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, wrote "In 1992, Vincent Gambini taught a master class in cross-examination.", and further extensively quoted from a cross-examination scene in the film.John Marshall Law School professor Alberto Bernabe wrote that "Vinny is terrible at the things we do teach in law school, but very good at the things we don't: how to interview clients, gather facts, prepare a theory of a case, negotiate, know when to ask a question and when to remain quiet, and cross examine a witness forcefully (but with charm) in order to expose the weaknesses in their testimony.In 2008 the ABA Journal ranked the film #3 on its list of the "25 Greatest Legal Movies", and in 2010 ranked Pesci's character as #12 on its list of "The 25 Greatest Fictional Lawyers (Who Are Not Atticus Finch)".Lawyers find the film appealing, according to the director, because "there aren't any bad guys", with the judge, prosecutor, and Vinny all seeking justice.



Basically, if you're a not an Americanlawyer, you'll find the movie incredibly enjoyable. If you are an American lawyer, you'll find the movie incredibly enjoyable and a shockingly excellent portrayal of legal system idiosyncrasies and will probably end up quoting it more than others might see as reasonable.

----------


## woweedd

> What "he should write from it"?  There's such a thing as enjoying books.
> 
> And I would wait until a Q&A to ask if he's read it, and that would be trying.  You know, because he's a content creator who doesn't need my help to write the story, but might enjoy other people's perspective on things he's writing about.


I would like to note: Rich has said in the past he's deliberately avoiding reading Discworld until OOTS is done, specifically to avoid it influencing his ideas too much.

(Also, yeah, dude, this reads even more parasocial then usual.)

----------


## mashlagoo1982

> Let me rephrase. It's a comedy headed by Joe Pesci playing a wise-guy lawyer who has to represent his cousin in a murder trial in backwoods Alabama, as his first ever trial since he graduated law school six years prior but has been unable to pass the bar (exam that allows you to actually practice law).
> 
> It's a well loved movie that typically shocks people when they hear that is is often cited as incredibly legally accurate since it's effectively a courtroom comedy and contains many antics, such as the titular lawyer Vinnie falling asleep during prosecutor's opening arguments and on being woken up, making his own opening argument as "Everything that guy just said is bull****. Thank you."
> 
> Highlights from the lengthy "legal accuracy" header on its Wikipedia page:
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> ...


There is also a LegalEagle youtube video about movie analyzing some of the scenes.  Both My Cousin Vinny and the LegalEagle youtube video are fantastic.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Let me rephrase. It's a comedy headed by Joe Pesci playing a wise-guy lawyer who has to represent his cousin in a murder trial in backwoods Alabama, as his first ever trial since he graduated law school six years prior but has been unable to pass the bar (exam that allows you to actually practice law).
> 
> It's a well loved movie that typically shocks people when they hear that is is often cited as incredibly legally accurate since it's effectively a courtroom comedy and contains many antics, such as the titular lawyer Vinnie falling asleep during prosecutor's opening arguments and on being woken up, making his own opening argument as "Everything that guy just said is bull****. Thank you."
> 
> Highlights from the lengthy "legal accuracy" header on its Wikipedia page:
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> ...


I'll give it a try on occasion.

----------


## Crusher

> I'll give it a try on occasion.


Also worth noting, this is the film for which Marisa Tomei extremely unexpectedly won a best supporting actress Oscar. She is an absolute joy as Vinnie's girlfriend.

----------


## Peelee

> Also worth noting, this is the film for which Marisa Tomei extremely unexpectedly won a best supporting actress Oscar. She is an absolute joy as Vinnie's girlfriend.


Well-written character too. Early 90's ultra-Italian-Brooklyn style woman so the hard focus on getting married and having kids isn't out of line at all but she's also incredibly capable and very incisive, not only when she's in her wheelhouse but also when she tries to help Vinny with legal research.

----------


## lio45

> I'll give it a try on occasion.


When watching it, remind yourself that Alabama is Peelees homeland ;)

----------


## GrayGriffin

> What "he should write from it"?  There's such a thing as enjoying books.
> 
> And I would wait until a Q&A to ask if he's read it, and that would be trying.  You know, because he's a content creator who doesn't need my help to write the story, but might enjoy other people's perspective on things he's writing about.


Dude, you literally said "give a copy" to him. That's completely different from recommending it in a Q&A as you claimed. Also the fact that you discuss beholder lair concepts from the book and then ponder if he knows them already certainly sounds like you think he needs the advice.

----------


## mashlagoo1982

> Dude, you literally said "give a copy" to him. That's completely different from recommending it in a Q&A as you claimed. Also the fact that you discuss beholder lair concepts from the book and then ponder if he knows them already certainly sounds like you think he needs the advice.


I may have missed that post, but I don't think TOX suggested they only recommended it in a Q&A.
I don't see where TOX denied sending a copy of the book.

My understanding is that TOX admitted to sending a copy of the book and then saying they would ask during a Q&A if the sent book was read.

Please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding.

----------


## Kish

I have nothing to say about the ox's desire to share with Rich a book he likes, but I am going to say that I think the idea that Rich might find useful for writing Sunny or any part of the comic which features Sunny a book which apparently fits perfectly into the idea that genociding beholders is an appropriate "plot" goal...suggests having missed a few things here.

----------


## Ruck

> ...
> 
> Not your best sales' pitch, friend.


It is a good movie and quite funny.




> Also worth noting, this is the film for which Marisa Tomei extremely unexpectedly won a best supporting actress Oscar. She is an absolute joy as Vinnie's girlfriend.


A well-deserved Oscar, too, long-standing urban legend aside.

----------


## Peelee

> When watching it, remind yourself that Alabama is Peelees homeland ;)


And Brooklyn was my dad's homeland! Nifty!



> It is a good movie and quite funny.


Also, apropos of nothing, but I discovered today that someone decided to make a book series of the continuing adventures of Vincent La Guardia Gambino and Mona Lisa Vito, and there is a non-zero chance that I got the audio book and already got partway through chapter 1 when I ran out for lunch today.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Ruck

> And Brooklyn was my dad's homeland! Nifty!
> 
> Also, apropos of nothing, but I discovered today that someone decided to make a book series of the continuing adventures of Vincent La Guardia Gambino and Mona Lisa Vito, and there is a non-zero chance that I got the audio book and already got partway through chapter 1 when I ran out for lunch today.


How is it? One always wonders if tie-ins / expanded media from sources like this live up to the original. (For example, I'm not sure _Vincent LaGuardia Gambini Sings Just for You_ is really worth a listen.)

----------


## Peelee

> How is it? One always wonders if tie-ins / expanded media from sources like this live up to the original. (For example, I'm not sure _Vincent LaGuardia Gambini Sings Just for You_ is really worth a listen.)


So far it's... weird. Five chapters in and so far the only things that happened were Vinny got in a gun control debate with a gas station owner that seemingly took place in present day instead of 1992, and then Vinny and Lisa argued about the environmental impact of toilet paper cardboard tubes back on New York. The vocal team is great on accents but horrible in inflection. Everyone speaks the exact same way no matter what they say. That seems pretty normal for audio books though, from my (limited) experience with audiobook fiction.

All that said, the amazon reviews are quite high, and while it's target market is clearly fans of the movie. However, one would assume this means that such people would be highly critical if it wasn't good like the original, so I still have hopes it'll find its footing once it gets going.

----------


## brian 333

I am quite surprised that Cartoon World Physics has not been invoked to explain the Tower Scene. After all, in the real world, projecting someone through a stone wall never results in the defenestratee getting on a horse and riding away. And either way, the hole in the wall wouldn't be anything but some form of oval.

Clearly, there is a level of cartoonishness in that comic which, somehow, morphed into something bigger than a one page joke. As for how much one can interpret that as a display of strength score, I have misgivings. It seems to me that above STR 18, real world physics don't really apply anyway. By the time a character is STR 20, I'd allow punching someone through a wall for a joke.

----------


## Throknor

> I am quite surprised that Cartoon World Physics has not been invoked to explain the Tower Scene. After all, in the real world, projecting someone through a stone wall never results in the defenestratee getting on a horse and riding away. And either way, the hole in the wall wouldn't be anything but some form of oval.
> 
> Clearly, there is a level of cartoonishness in that comic which, somehow, morphed into something bigger than a one page joke. As for how much one can interpret that as a display of strength score, I have misgivings. It seems to me that above STR 18, real world physics don't really apply anyway. By the time a character is STR 20, I'd allow punching someone through a wall for a joke.


While I agree the outlines were for comic effect 'real world' arguments hold little sway in an environment where a cat can disembowel a 'low-level' person with a single swipe but 'high-level' people can be both set on fire and stabbed multiple times with little inconvenience.  As I recall the point of working out the thickness of the wall and the real-world force it would take to break through was to get a reference point of some kind.  I don't think anyone thinks Rich actually did the math.

----------


## Peelee

> I am quite surprised that Cartoon World Physics has not been invoked to explain the Tower Scene.


It has been. Often. As recently as a few pages ago.



> Not that it much matters, mind you, because I also think looney toons physics are in effect





> Yeah, of course, the Tower Scene is Looney Tunes Physics, were all in agreement on that.


 



> After all, in the real world, projecting someone through a stone wall never results in the defenestratee


Not a defenestratee. That would require her to be thrown out a window, not through a wall.

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> As I recall the point of working out the thickness of the wall and the real-world force it would take to break through was to get a reference point of some kind.  I don't think anyone thinks Rich actually did the math.


I don't think a reference point that no one thinks Rich calculated provides any insight into what Rich was thinking when he drew the scene.

----------


## Crusher

> Not a defenestratee. That would require her to be thrown out a window, not through a wall.


IS there a term for throwing someone out a building through a wall?

----------


## Peelee

> IS there a term for throwing someone out a building through a wall?


Yes. "Throwing someone through a wall".

It's a bit wordier than the term for throwing someone through a window.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Fyraltari

> IS there a term for throwing someone out a building through a wall?


Not really.

It doesn't come up much in the real world.

----------


## Peelee

> Not really.
> 
> It doesn't come up much in the real world.


Maybe in Japanese? Though I'd assume throwing someone through shoji is pretty exclusive to Hollywood.

Well always have Paris drywall.

----------


## lio45

The basically consensual acceptance of Cartoon World Physics being at play in the Tower Scene is exactly why over all the years, we have never seen anyone analyzing the shape of the holes or wondering why Miko and Windstriker arent turned to paste. 

The takeaway from the scene is, however, unarguable: that MitD possesses the power/ability to infuse a target with a large quantity of momentum. 

Cartoon World Physics doesnt change that basic fact. MitD is able to launch someone in the air, either through extraordinarily high STR or something else.

----------


## Tzardok

> IS there a term for throwing someone out a building through a wall?


Well, defenestrate is derived from fenestra, Latin for window. Latin for wall is murus. The term for "throwing through a wall" is logically demurate.  :Small Tongue: 

We propably need another prefix, as de- means "out of" instead of "through", but let's not be pedantic in this thread. *wink*

----------


## Peelee

> Well, defenestrate is derived from fenestra, Latin for window. Latin for wall is murus. The term for "throwing through a wall" is logically demurate.


Which gives a whole new outlook on demure people.

----------


## woweedd

> I don't think a reference point that no one thinks Rich calculated provides any insight into what Rich was thinking when he drew the scene.


I'm not sure what could, really? But the conclusion the scene imparts is inarguable: MITD is very strong, or, at least, able to send someone flying quite a large distance with very little conscious effort.

----------


## Peelee

For my money, the line of "what was he thinking when he wrote this scene?" ends at the point where he explicitly told us what he was thinking when he wrote that scene.

----------


## Crusher

> Maybe in Japanese? Though I'd assume throwing someone through shoji is pretty exclusive to Hollywood.
> 
> Well always have Paris drywall.


Surely the Germans have a term for this.

Edit - Just because German seems to have a term for everything, not because the Germans throw people through walls often enough to need a term for it. That I know of.

----------


## Peelee

> Surely the Germans have a term for this.
> 
> Edit - Just because German seems to have a term for everything, not because the Germans throw people through walls often enough to need a term for it. That I know of.


They doo! It's "Werfen Sie jemanden durch eine Wand"  :Small Amused:

----------


## Tzardok

> They doo! It's "Werfen Sie jemanden durch eine Wand"


That's not a term, that's an instruction.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## lio45

> Well, defenestrate is derived from fenestra, Latin for window. Latin for wall is murus. The term for "throwing through a wall" is logically demurate.


Its taken from French. Includes the de- prefix and the ending in -ate (the English ending of converted French verbs of the -er family). 

There exists a verb for the opposite: emmurer (shut / seal someone behind a wall). I guess it was done often enough back in the day to justify a verb :P

----------


## Peelee

> Its taken from French.


Unless you want to go with Gaullish instead, I that's just one stop on the train back to Rome.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Tzardok

> There exists a verb for the opposite: emmurer (shut / seal someone behind a wall). I guess it was done often enough back in the day to justify a verb :P


Now _that_ is something German has a term for: einmauern. On the other hand, English also has one: to wall in.

----------


## Yendor

The English version of that word is "immure".

----------


## Ruck

> For my money, the line of "what was he thinking when he wrote this scene?" ends at the point where he explicitly told us what he was thinking when he wrote that scene.


Which is, for those that don't know:

(from the War and XPs commentary-- I think this is OK to post, but if not a mod can always remove it.)




> The Monster in the Darkness plays an important role in this sceneperhaps the first time it has ever done so. Prior to this, it existed mostly as comedy relief for Xykons team. Sure, Redcloak and Xykon talked about how powerful they thought it was, but we never actually got to see it in action. Its childlike persona had likely led many readers to feel that he wasnt a real threatand that needed to change. By encountering Miko, the monster had the opportunity to to display a little of its power without giving too much away.
> 
> This was necessary so that later, when Haley and Belkar needed to retrieve someone from the monsters clutches, there would be no doubt that he was a real threat. Moreover, I was able explore the idea that the monster itself isnt really aware of all of its capabilities. In #374, it tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails. Later, in #477, it doesnt know that it can cause an earthquake by stomping until a demon roach tells it so.

----------


## Tubercular Ox

None of that implies a whole bunch of roleplaying requirements for getting through the scene.

----------


## Peelee

> None of that implies a whole bunch of roleplaying requirements for getting through the scene.


I'm sorry, I'm confused here. What do you mean by "role-laying requirements"?

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> I'm sorry, I'm confused here. What do you mean by "role-laying requirements"?


"I think the Monster in the Dark isn't trying very hard in this scene, so I'm not going to use any abilities that require a choice on the player's part, nor any feats that seem too aggressive.  SLA's are okay because they can be activated accidentally."

Those are roleplaying requirements.

There is also nothing in that text to suggest that Rich looked at the Monster in the Dark's strength score and made any decision about how far it could bop someone.  Even if he did, there's nothing in that text to say what his bar is.

Everything is invented.

----------


## Wintermoot

> IS there a term for throwing someone out a building through a wall?


Dekoolaidmanate

----------


## Kish

> "I think the Monster in the Dark isn't trying very hard in this scene,


Point of order: This is not the {scrubbed} way to paraphrase "I think the Monster in the Dark meant he was going to try to hit lightly and that he in fact tried to hit lightly when he said he was going to try to hit lightly and Rich said he tried and failed to hit lightly."

----------


## Tubercular Ox

"I think the Monster in the Dark is going to try to hit lightly and in fact he will try to hit lightly when he says he is going to try to hit lightly and I'll tell them later he tried and failed to hit lightly, so I'm not going to use any abilities that require a choice on the player's part, nor any feats that seem too aggressive. SLA's are okay because they can be activated accidentally."

----------


## b_jonas

I still hold the minority view that the MitD was deliberately hitting Miko and Windstriker hard, and in #347 last panel he was speaking sarcastically.  This is easier to imagine now that we have seen in #901 that the MitD can do a clever bluff.  Bluffing about this hitting light challenge against a paladin is particularly easy, see Haley's comment in #428 16th.  There's also #1038 which shows that the MitD can have occasional  smart insights.  Perhaps these happen more often after he became friends with O-Chul, but it can't be just that, so I think it could have happened #347.  

Yes, the tower scene uses cartoon physics.  That's why for the FBS list we allow monsters with a strength of merely 30, rather than the more than 120 strength that a D&D monster would actually need to hit Windstriker through a wall.  

It's possible that the MitD didn't use raw strength or raw damage for the tower scene but some very specific ability, in which case the above might not apply.

----------


## Keltest

> I still hold the minority view that the MitD was deliberately hitting Miko and Windstriker hard, and in #347 last panel he was speaking sarcastically.  This is easier to imagine now that we have seen in #901 that the MitD can do a clever bluff.  Bluffing about this hitting light challenge against a paladin is particularly easy, see Haley's comment in #428 16th.  There's also #1038 which shows that the MitD can have occasional  smart insights.  Perhaps these happen more often after he became friends with O-Chul, but it can't be just that, so I think it could have happened #347.  
> 
> Yes, the tower scene uses cartoon physics.  That's why for the FBS list we allow monsters with a strength of merely 30, rather than the more than 120 strength that a D&D monster would actually need to hit Windstriker through a wall.  
> 
> It's possible that the MitD didn't use raw strength or raw damage for the tower scene but some very specific ability, in which case the above might not apply.


Why would the MITD be trying to hit them hard on purpose though?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> I still hold the minority view that the MitD was deliberately hitting Miko and Windstriker hard, and in #347 last panel he was speaking sarcastically.


Are there any other instances of MitD using sarcasm? He's generally pretty sincere, as I recall.

----------


## Ruck

> I still hold the minority view that the MitD was deliberately hitting Miko and Windstriker hard, and in #347 last panel he was speaking sarcastically.  This is easier to imagine now that we have seen in #901 that the MitD can do a clever bluff.  Bluffing about this hitting light challenge against a paladin is particularly easy, see Haley's comment in #428 16th.  There's also #1038 which shows that the MitD can have occasional  smart insights.  *Perhaps these happen more often after he became friends with O-Chul, but it can't be just that*, so I think it could have happened #347.


Why can't it just be that? I think it's pretty evident MitD didn't start thinking for himself until O-Chul prodded him to doing so. And the only times we've seen him bluff are when he was trying to thwart Team Evil's agenda in order to protect O-Chul's friends. This scene doesn't really qualify as either.

MitD was tasked with preventing Miko from escaping, so it doesn't really make sense that he'd hit her so hard that she could then escape. Unless you're arguing that he purposely let her out in hopes she'd thwart Team Evil, which doesn't make sense as a motivation at this point in time _and_ surely there would have been an easier way to do so than "bash her through a stone wall."




> "I think the Monster in the Dark isn't trying very hard in this scene, so I'm not going to use any abilities that require a choice on the player's part, nor any feats that seem too aggressive.  SLA's are okay because they can be activated accidentally."
> 
> Those are roleplaying requirements.
> 
> There is also nothing in that text to suggest that Rich looked at the Monster in the Dark's strength score and made any decision about how far it could bop someone.  Even if he did, there's nothing in that text to say what his bar is.
> 
> Everything is invented.


I guess I don't follow here, because the obvious implication to me is "I wanted to show the MitD was a real threat by showing that even when he tries to hit someone as lightly as possible, he still hits with tremendous power and force."

But I also still don't understand this concept of "roleplaying requirements," because this is a story, not a game. And to me it seems very obvious that of course Rich is not going to say something like "It would require a strength of at least X to be able to do this, so now we know MitD has at least strength X" in a book commentary. So what does "Everything is invented" mean? It's a fictional story; of course everything in it is invented.

You've left the last few questions I posed to you hanging, too.

----------


## b_jonas

> Are there any other instances of MitD using sarcasm? He's generally pretty sincere, as I recall.


Yes, I don't recall any other place where he clearly uses sarcasm.




> And the only times we've seen him bluff are when he was trying to thwart Team Evil's agenda in order to protect O-Chul's friends.


Do you count #1038 6th is a thing I totally overheard some guy say into that?




> MitD was tasked with preventing Miko from escaping, so it doesn't really make sense that he'd hit her so hard that she could then escape. Unless you're arguing that he purposely let her out in hopes she'd thwart Team Evil, which doesn't make sense as a motivation at this point in time _and_ surely there would have been an easier way to do so than "bash her through a stone wall."


Yeah, I admit I don't understand his motivation in hitting Miko and Windstriker through the wall.  But I still find the alternative, where he tried to hit lightly and failed, hard to believe.

----------


## Ruck

> Do you count #1038 6th is a thing I totally overheard some guy say into that?


Somewhat. I suppose it would be more accurate to say that he's covering for his own intelligence and knowledge, because he still wants Xykon and Redcloak to think he's stupid and useless. (Which itself is part of his cover for his attempts to sabotage their efforts.)




> Yeah, I admit I don't understand his motivation in hitting Miko and Windstriker through the wall.  But I still find the alternative, where he tried to hit lightly and failed, hard to believe.


The alternative is that he tried to hit lightly and is still so strong he hit with a ridiculous amount of force.

----------


## hroþila

> But I still find the alternative, where he tried to hit lightly and failed, hard to believe.


It's a pretty common comedic trope. This scene from Dragon Ball comes to mind.

Edit: This is an even more straightforward example.

----------


## Kish

He also has absolutely no reason to lie there.

...and here I cut the rest of the post after writing it, to instead point out that Rich explicitly said he tries to tap Miko lightly and fails. Are straightforward, perfectly earnestly presented things Rich says also up for "I think he's being sarcastic"? That's gonna make the Index of the Giant's Comments less useful.

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> But I also still don't understand this concept of "roleplaying requirements," because this is a story, not a game. And to me it seems very obvious that of course Rich is not going to say something like "It would require a strength of at least X to be able to do this, so now we know MitD has at least strength X" in a book commentary. So what does "Everything is invented" mean? It's a fictional story; of course everything in it is invented.


Deflect Harm makes a Hunting Horror invincible for a turn.  It's got some side effects that might be important to the plot someday, but "Does a Hunting Horror have to make choices to use it?" is not implied by what Rich has told us motivates him for that scene.

A candidate with XX strength can hit for all that bonus damage and still be counted as trying to hit lightly, but any amount of power attack, even if it provided less damage, can't be used because then it would be trying, is also not what Rich implied when he talked about the scene.

My strength is, like, 10 or 11 tops, which is enough to smash an aluminum can with my hands if I want, but that doesn't mean I'm in danger every time I try to drink a coke.  Once you're into the realm of "I don't know my own strength" jokes and allowing a monster to have +21 damage from strength bonus but not +1 from Power Attack, you're limiting Rich's imagination on what "hits lightly and fails" means.




> How would those changes have better communicated the idea? I mean "how" as literally as possible: In what way would any of those three changes to the comic art have made it more obvious that MitD was trying to hit as lightly as possible and still hit with preposterous strength?


Because you could have run the argument in reverse on me.  If Rich had drawn Miko hitting the wall and making an imprint rather than going through it, then I said, "This was clearly a sucker punch and the MitD, for whatever reason, hit as hard as it could," you could have said, "If Rich really wanted to convince use this was his hardest hit and not the lightest hit of a very strong monster, he could've put her through the wall.  Or over the horizon.  Or beyond a mountain range."

If I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that the hit we see is some monster's lightest hit, then I ask myself what Rich could have drawn differently to show more clearly that it was a sucker punch (witting or not on the part of the MitD).  I guess it's complicated here because I'm not assuming it was a sucker punch for this story, I'm assuming it was the lightest hit of a strong monster and then asking what a sucker punch would have looked like, and I don't know.  I can't picture any art that would say sucker punch after the assumption becomes that hitting farther than any printed monster can actually hit is secret code for the lightest hit of a very strong monster.




> Was MitD saying "Aww, man! I lost twice. I suck" not enough?


It shows that what he does is repeatable, and I'm referring both to the abilities he used and to whatever failure "It tries to hit lightly and fails" is supposed to represent.

----------


## Ruck

> Deflect Harm makes a Hunting Horror invincible for a turn.  It's got some side effects that might be important to the plot someday, but "Does a Hunting Horror have to make choices to use it?" is not implied by what Rich has told us motivates him for that scene.
> 
> A candidate with XX strength can hit for all that bonus damage and still be counted as trying to hit lightly, but any amount of power attack, even if it provided less damage, can't be used because then it would be trying, is also not what Rich implied when he talked about the scene.


I think I follow what you're saying and don't disagree with it, but I'm still not sure how it answers my question. Re: Deflect Harm, I'm also not sure how it's relevant in the Tower Scene since MitD hits first.




> My strength is, like, 10 or 11 tops, which is enough to smash an aluminum can with my hands if I want, but that doesn't mean I'm in danger every time I try to drink a coke.  Once you're into the realm of "I don't know my own strength" jokes and allowing a monster to have +21 damage from strength bonus but not +1 from Power Attack, you're limiting Rich's imagination on what "hits lightly and fails" means.


Eh, but not knowing your own strength, and attempting one type of attack and doing another, fall into two different categories.




> Because you could have run the argument in reverse on me.  If Rich had drawn Miko hitting the wall and making an imprint rather than going through it, then I said, "This was clearly a sucker punch and the MitD, for whatever reason, hit as hard as it could," you could have said, "If Rich really wanted to convince use this was his hardest hit and not the lightest hit of a very strong monster, he could've put her through the wall.  Or over the horizon.  Or beyond a mountain range."


I mean, "If a then b" does not imply "If b then a," which is what the argument in reverse seems to depend on. 

In any case, I think all the scenes communicate that Miko was hit really hard; why do you think one communicates that MitD tried to hit lightly and failed, and another that MitD actually hit as hard as possible? Unless we have reason to think MitD was tricking Miko, and I don't think we do, the difference between the scenes is just a matter of degree. And we have plenty of supporting evidence around the actual hit that MitD was in fact trying to hit as lightly as possible, so I think, whatever happens to Miko afterwards, the most straightforward conclusion is that he was trying to hit as lightly as possible.




> If I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that the hit we see is some monster's lightest hit, then I ask myself what Rich could have drawn differently to show more clearly that it was a sucker punch (witting or not on the part of the MitD).  I guess it's complicated here because I'm not assuming it was a sucker punch for this story, I'm assuming it was the lightest hit of a strong monster and then asking what a sucker punch would have looked like, and I don't know.  I can't picture any art that would say sucker punch after the assumption becomes that hitting farther than any printed monster can actually hit is secret code for the lightest hit of a very strong monster.


I'm not assuming it was a sucker punch either. I'm also assuming it was the lightest hit of a strong monster, which is what has left me confused that you think showing less impact or damage would've made that clear. 

To the best of my deductive abilities, it sounds like you think the impact of the hit on Miko and the distance flung her is just too strong to be a "lightly as possible" hit. Since we have all the evidence supporting that MitD was hitting as lightly as possible, I think the logical conclusion is that he was doing just that. I think it just means, even the lightest hit of the MitD is preposterously strong.

(And, of course, for plot-related reasons Miko has to exit the tower.)




> It shows that what he does is repeatable, and I'm referring both to the abilities he used and to whatever failure "It tries to hit lightly and fails" is supposed to represent.


And a basic attack is certainly repeatable. But I also think that MitD is being sincere when he's disappointed he lost, because he has no reason to lie in that scene and no one to even lie _to_.

----------


## b_jonas

> ...and here I cut the rest of the post after writing it, to instead point out that Rich explicitly said he tries to tap Miko lightly and fails.


> Moreover I wanted to explore the idea that the monster itself isn't really aware of all its capabilities. It tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails.   Rich in War and XPs

Hmm indeed, I forgot about that quote, thank you.

----------


## mashlagoo1982

I had an interesting idea that has been knocking around in my head for a couple days.  It's not much, but I thought it maybe worth sharing on the board.

Haunting Horrors are creatures that serve a master.  In this theory, Xykon is basically a stand-in for their named master Nyarlathotep (though HH can be summoned and bound too).

Most importantly, HH serve a master.  Perhaps the MitD is displaying this servitude through its more recent evolution in behavior.  Earlier in the comic, MitD only served Xykon and they seem to have a master/slave relationship (though MitD doesn't appear to recognize it maybe partly because Xykon doesn't want MitD to think).

However, I suspect MitD has chosen a new master; O-Chul.  This is a new student/sensei relationship.  O-Chul encourages MitD to think, after which we see the drastic changes in behavior MitD displays.  I don't know if any of the other candidates are specifically described as serving a master.  If so, that would be a point in their favor for me.  However, I think this idea maybe further evidence that MitD could be a HH (though maybe a stretch).

tldr; 
HH serve a master
MitD appears to serve a master (Xykon)
MitD may have chosen a new master (O-Chul)
This adherence to servitude is a feature of the HH that may explain the change in MitD behavior.

Maybe MitD is undecided, and is stuck serving two drastically different masters?

It could also just be a natural evolution of MitD's character after their interaction with O-Chul.

Thoughts?

----------


## Keltest

The need to serve a master would be a point against a creature IMO, since learning independence and to rely on his own values and judgement is part of the MITD's character arc, and he cant well do that if he doesnt actually have free will.

----------


## woweedd

> I had an interesting idea that has been knocking around in my head for a couple days.  It's not much, but I thought it maybe worth sharing on the board.
> 
> Haunting Horrors are creatures that serve a master.  In this theory, Xykon is basically a stand-in for their named master Nyarlathotep (though HH can be summoned and bound too).
> 
> Most importantly, HH serve a master.  Perhaps the MitD is displaying this servitude through its more recent evolution in behavior.  Earlier in the comic, MitD only served Xykon and they seem to have a master/slave relationship (though MitD doesn't appear to recognize it maybe partly because Xykon doesn't want MitD to think).
> 
> However, I suspect MitD has chosen a new master; O-Chul.  This is a new student/sensei relationship.  O-Chul encourages MitD to think, after which we see the drastic changes in behavior MitD displays.  I don't know if any of the other candidates are specifically described as serving a master.  If so, that would be a point in their favor for me.  However, I think this idea maybe further evidence that MitD could be a HH (though maybe a stretch).
> 
> tldr; 
> ...


I think that's missing the point. Xykon is not his master, but neither is O-Chul. He does not serve O-Chul, indeed, O-Chul has only ever advised him to think for himself. And, for serving a master...Has OOTS as a story struck you as one typically bound by monster descriptions, in terms of personality at least? Compare Sunny, gentle cheerful child who's on par with ELAN's level of friendliness and compassion, with by the book Beholders, living embodiments of paranoid, narcissistic megalomania who hate one another for the slightest variations in form and reproduce by creating an enemy from their own mind out of sheer insecure xenophobia. Clearly, free will accounts for a lot in the OOTS verse.

----------


## mashlagoo1982

> The need to serve a master would be a point against a creature IMO, since learning independence and to rely on his own values and judgement is part of the MITD's character arc, and he cant well do that if he doesnt actually have free will.


I wasn't trying to suggest that the MitD needs a master.  It was more a point of origin for MitD behavior.  I find the breaking of this point of origin completely in-line with the comic itself and MitD's character arc.




> I think that's missing the point. Xykon is not his master, but neither is O-Chul. He does not serve O-Chul, indeed, O-Chul has only ever advised him to think for himself. And, for serving a master...Has OOTS as a story struck you as one typically bound by monster descriptions, in terms of personality at least? Compare Sunny, gentle cheerful child who's on par with ELAN's level of friendliness and compassion, with by the book Beholders, living embodiments of paranoid, narcissistic megalomania who hate one another for the slightest variations in form and reproduce by creating an enemy from their own mind out of sheer insecure xenophobia. Clearly, free will accounts for a lot in the OOTS verse.


But Xykon was clearly MitD's master for a long time.  Sure there were comic hijinks, but generally MitD obeyed Xykon and never intentionally acted against Team Evil.

After meeting and learning from O-Chul (like a master and student relationship), MitD starts to think for theirself. This is in drastic contrast to the relationship Xykon has with MitD.  The suggestion wasn't that MitD serves O-Chul.  Instead, MitD adopts O-Chul as their teacher or a different type of master. MitD even tries to sabotage the efforts of Team Evil which we know (even if MitD doesn't) O-Chul approves.

The idea is that MitD transitions from Master/Servant > Sensei/Student

----------


## Keltest

Mitd is agreeable, not servile. He does basically anything anyone asks of him within the limits of his understanding

----------


## Crusher

> They doo! It's "Werfen Sie jemanden durch eine Wand"


Feels a little too "on the nose".

----------


## woweedd

> I wasn't trying to suggest that the MitD needs a master.  It was more a point of origin for MitD behavior.  I find the breaking of this point of origin completely in-line with the comic itself and MitD's character arc.
> 
> 
> 
> But Xykon was clearly MitD's master for a long time.  Sure there were comic hijinks, but generally MitD obeyed Xykon and never intentionally acted against Team Evil.
> 
> After meeting and learning from O-Chul (like a master and student relationship), MitD starts to think for theirself. This is in drastic contrast to the relationship Xykon has with MitD.  The suggestion wasn't that MitD serves O-Chul.  Instead, MitD adopts O-Chul as their teacher or a different type of master. MitD even tries to sabotage the efforts of Team Evil which we know (even if MitD doesn't) O-Chul approves.
> 
> The idea is that MitD transitions from Master/Servant > Sensei/Student


I mean...I guess I get it, but for what it's worth, the MITD largely just obeyed the orders of whoever he happened to be standing near. Which was Team Evil.

----------


## Doug Lampert

> Dekoolaidmanate


I think that that is not throwing someone else through the wall, that's when you burst through the wall on your own.

Also, the comic needs more appearances by Soda, Fruit Pies, and various other anthropomophised snacks.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Dekoolaidmanate


No, that's throwing someone through the Kool-Aid Man.

----------


## Peelee

> No, that's throwing someone through the Kool-Aid Man.


What if I only have Flavor Aid?

----------


## Fyraltari

> What if I only have Flavor Aid?


I suppose you'll have to ask the prospective throwee politely, but firmly, to leave.

----------


## Tubercular Ox

mashlagoo1982 is right, character arcs have a beginning and an end and good ones generally don't start and end in the same place.  Monster descriptions tend to be static, so expecting one to apply at every moment of a character arc doesn't work.

Oona thinks the Great Beast in Shadow should serve its master, and the Monster in the Dark resists.  This should show that its starting place is as a servant creature and that it's moving away from that.  If it's an independent creature that's been misplaced by its agreeable personality, Oona's comments make less sense.

And, whiplash, I go to boxing once a week because threatening to hit me is the only way I'll exercise.  Once or twice a year someone sparring (not me, I'm a poser who does drills all the time) takes a hit and goes to the mat.  This is not supposed to happen.  Sparring is about hitting lightly so people can work on their form and technique.  It only happens when partners have different skill levels and fail to figure it out in time.  This means every example in my life of someone failing to hit lightly comes from not working Power Attack correctly (a teachable way of hitting harder), rather than having excessive strength (which pretty much anyone can suppress).

I don't expect Rich to have the same experience as me, but given that the thread's experience with failing to hit lightly is the opposite of mine, it should show that all of the assumptions that govern hitting lightly and failing are just that: assumptions.  If we don't know how Rich thinks, then we can't require monsters limit themselves to certain abilities when passing the scene because we don't know how Rich thinks and it may not be the same as the thread.

----------


## Fyraltari

> mashlagoo1982 is right, character arcs have a beginning and an end and good ones generally don't start and end in the same place.  Monster descriptions tend to be static, so expecting one to apply at every moment of a character arc doesn't work.
> 
> Oona thinks the Great Beast in Shadow should serve its master, and the Monster in the Dark resists.  This should show that its starting place is as a servant creature and that it's moving away from that.  If it's an independent creature that's been misplaced by its agreeable personality, Oona's comments make less sense.


Oona defies herself as a beast_mistress_, don't you think that colors her experience? She sees all companionship with a monster as a master-servant relationship. That is how she treats Greyview and Lancer, do _their_ descriptions say they need masters?

----------


## woweedd

> mashlagoo1982 is right, character arcs have a beginning and an end and good ones generally don't start and end in the same place.  Monster descriptions tend to be static, so expecting one to apply at every moment of a character arc doesn't work.
> 
> Oona thinks the Great Beast in Shadow should serve its master, and the Monster in the Dark resists.  This should show that its starting place is as a servant creature and that it's moving away from that.  If it's an independent creature that's been misplaced by its agreeable personality, Oona's comments make less sense.
> 
> And, whiplash, I go to boxing once a week because threatening to hit me is the only way I'll exercise.  Once or twice a year someone sparring (not me, I'm a poser who does drills all the time) takes a hit and goes to the mat.  This is not supposed to happen.  Sparring is about hitting lightly so people can work on their form and technique.  It only happens when partners have different skill levels and fail to figure it out in time.  This means every example in my life of someone failing to hit lightly comes from not working Power Attack correctly (a teachable way of hitting harder), rather than having excessive strength (which pretty much anyone can suppress).
> 
> I don't expect Rich to have the same experience as me, but given that the thread's experience with failing to hit lightly is the opposite of mine, it should show that all of the assumptions that govern hitting lightly and failing are just that: assumptions.  If we don't know how Rich thinks, then we can't require monsters limit themselves to certain abilities when passing the scene because we don't know how Rich thinks and it may not be the same as the thread.


I find you of all people saying we don't know how Rich thinks funny. I think we can safely assume, given the context and his set-up, MITD has a Strength score in excess of 18, probably in the mid-20s or higher. Point is, he's clearly very strong, is my impression of what the scene conveys.

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> Oona defies herself as a beast_mistress_, don't you think that colors her experience? She sees all companionship with a monster as a master-servant relationship. That is how she treats Greyview and Lancer, do _their_ descriptions say they need masters?


In this context, yes, they need masters.  Without Oona present to control them they're random encounters.

----------


## Keltest

> In this context, yes, they need masters.  Without Oona present to control them they're random encounters.


Random encounters as a concept only really applies to actual games. In scripted media, every encounter has a purpose.

----------


## Ruck

> In this context, yes, they need masters.  Without Oona present to control them they're random encounters.


This misses the point. The point is that MitD being in a master/servant relationship is entirely from Oona's perspective, because of her class. It does not mean she is definitively correct about him. Indeed, he is quick to point out Xykon is not actually his "master" in any meaningful sense.

----------


## brian 333

Is the hit used to propell Miko and Miko's Horse from a fist? Or from a tail-slap?

MitD may not have a fist, (thus its fascination with pulling.) Of course, Monster-san may not have a tail, either. But I assume it is far easier to control how much power one puts into a punch than into a whipping tail.

----------


## Peelee

> Is the hit used to propell Miko and Miko's Horse from a fist? Or from a tail-slap?
> 
> MitD may not have a fist, (thus its fascination with pulling.) Of course, Monster-san may not have a tail, either. But I assume it is far easier to control how much power one puts into a punch than into a whipping tail.


Why would you assume this?

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> Is the hit used to propell Miko and Miko's Horse from a fist? Or from a tail-slap?
> 
> MitD may not have a fist, (thus its fascination with pulling.) Of course, Monster-san may not have a tail, either. But I assume it is far easier to control how much power one puts into a punch than into a whipping tail.


It's a wing slap.   :Small Tongue: 

As for Oona, what I'm hearing the thread say is that Rich gave up a chance to say something true about the Monster in the Dark so that Oona could say something false about the Monster in the Dark.

----------


## Shining Wrath

We have good reason to believe MitD is an unusual member of his species. Possibly immature; possibly smaller than normal; definitely unusual to be found in a jungle and speaking Common, which implies life experiences prior to first appearance that are not standard for his species.

And we know that Rich is willing to modify D&D RAW in order to advance his story. For example, we've seen wizards teleport people they weren't touching.

Therefore, I think Rich's thought processes around strip #100 when he needed to pick a species for the character MitD would not be focused on the stat block of the creature in the MM, but on a creature that would help him tell a story. I believe we have Word of Giant that his goal in the Tower scene was not to provide information about MitD per se, but to demonstrate that MitD is a credible threat to the Order of the Stick all by himself.

I'd say that means we should be looking for creatures with a challenge rating in the high teens, except for the aforementioned idea that MitD is not a normal member of his species.

But what would Rich want when making his choice? I hypothesize:
Fun to draw and will be impressive when revealedSomething not "always evil" but probably "tends towards evil", as redemption and growth are a big part of the storySomething that is powerful enough to be important to the battle between good and evil, but not so powerful as to render the Order irrelevantSomething that his readers would be able to understand; not too obscure or weird

I think a lot of our leading candidates don't meet these criteria very well, because we've focused more on "creature stat block and the big scenes" and less on "Rich Burlew is telling a story and needs a character". To be fair, stat block analysis is a lot more tenable than reading Rich Burlew's mind.

----------


## littlebum2002

> We have good reason to believe MitD is an unusual member of his species. Possibly immature; possibly smaller than normal; definitely unusual to be found in a jungle and speaking Common, which implies life experiences prior to first appearance that are not standard for his species.
> 
> And we know that Rich is willing to modify D&D RAW in order to advance his story. For example, we've seen wizards teleport people they weren't touching.
> 
> Therefore, I think Rich's thought processes around strip #100 when he needed to pick a species for the character MitD would not be focused on the stat block of the creature in the MM, but on a creature that would help him tell a story. I believe we have Word of Giant that his goal in the Tower scene was not to provide information about MitD per se, but to demonstrate that MitD is a credible threat to the Order of the Stick all by himself.
> 
> I'd say that means we should be looking for creatures with a challenge rating in the high teens, except for the aforementioned idea that MitD is not a normal member of his species.
> 
> But what would Rich want when making his choice? I hypothesize:
> ...



I agree with some of this and disagree with some.

I agree that Rich almost certainly didn't stat out this monster. However, he has said that we should be able to guess it, and that nothing in the comic "disproves" (i dont remember his actual words) the monster, so i think it is safe to say that he can do everything that he has been shown to do. He must have high strength, he must have access to something that allows him to teleport others (even if the teleport doesn't work as RAW as you mentioned), he must have some way of making the earthquake, he must have some way of painting doors far away without moving his feet. We will probably have to stretch the rules almost to breaking to make a lot of these fit, but they still have to be plausible

I think from what Xykon has said in the past that the Monster is far, far more powerful than the Order. He might even be more powerful than Redcloak and Xykon. After all, Xykon planned on relying on the Monster to defeat the Order in the first dungeon, not his own spells.

I agree that his species is not super obscure, but you have to remember that the reader base was VASTLY different in strip 100 than it was now. It consisted mainly of devoted D&D players. SO I would say that his species is probably one which would be recognizable to most devoted D&D players, but maybe not to the population at large.

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## b_jonas

> He might even be more powerful than Redcloak and Xykon. After all, Xykon planned on relying on the Monster to defeat the Order in the first dungeon, not his own spells.


That's not because the MitD is more powerful.  Either Xykon or the MitD could have defeated the Order at that point, since they were very low level. But the MitD could also strike fear into their heart by threatening to eat their broken corpses lightly seasoned with nutmeg.  Xykon can no longer feel tastes as a lich, so Vaarsuvius or Roy would be able to tell that Xykon is lying and the threat from his mouth would ring hollow.

----------


## Shining Wrath

It's important that Xykon believes that MitD, just by emerging from the shadows, will intimidate a group of adventurers. Mere ugliness is not enough; an otyugh is very ugly, and also smells bad, but wouldn't intimidate a party of seasoned adventurers. They don't have to be able to identify the species, but it does need to be readily apparent it's dangerous.

This is kinda-sorta the same as "fun to draw". Bulging muscles or wicked claws or fangs dripping venom; just looking at MitD has to be daunting.

Xykon also believes that MitD can devour Redcloak if Redcloak ever betrays him. Now, maybe the wording of the spell Xykon lays on MitD requires that he say "Do this" rather than "attempt this", but it certainly seems that Xykon thinks MitD is sufficiently powerful to defeat a high level cleric before he can teleport out of danger. In fact, we maybe should impose a requirement of "has a big mouth".

----------


## Keltest

> It's important that Xykon believes that MitD, just by emerging from the shadows, will intimidate a group of adventurers. Mere ugliness is not enough; an otyugh is very ugly, and also smells bad, but wouldn't intimidate a party of seasoned adventurers. They don't have to be able to identify the species, but it does need to be readily apparent it's dangerous.
> 
> This is kinda-sorta the same as "fun to draw". Bulging muscles or wicked claws or fangs dripping venom; just looking at MitD has to be daunting.
> 
> Xykon also believes that MitD can devour Redcloak if Redcloak ever betrays him. Now, maybe the wording of the spell Xykon lays on MitD requires that he say "Do this" rather than "attempt this", but it certainly seems that Xykon thinks MitD is sufficiently powerful to defeat a high level cleric before he can teleport out of danger. In fact, we maybe should impose a requirement of "has a big mouth".


Not to get too far into the gory details, but I think something with a normal sized mouth could eat a medium sized creature if it took its time. Xykon didnt specify "in one bite" even if he maybe implied it a little. "Big Mouth" is another thing that can support a strong candidate but not really prop up a weak one.

----------


## Fyraltari

> It's important that Xykon believes that MitD, just by emerging from the shadows, will intimidate a group of adventurers. Mere ugliness is not enough; an otyugh is very ugly, and also smells bad, but wouldn't intimidate a party of seasoned adventurers. They don't have to be able to identify the species, but it does need to be readily apparent it's dangerous.
> 
> This is kinda-sorta the same as "fun to draw". Bulging muscles or wicked claws or fangs dripping venom; just looking at MitD has to be daunting.


*Spoiler: This to you isn't daunting?*
Show

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> Xykon didnt specify "in one bite" even if he maybe implied it a little.


The quote is, "Devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears."

----------


## Ruck

> As for Oona, what I'm hearing the thread say is that Rich gave up a chance to say something true about the Monster in the Dark so that Oona could say something false about the Monster in the Dark.


That presumes Oona's comment is specific to MitD and what species of monster he is, not merely the fact that he _is_ a monster. Maybe it is, but having a good idea of Oona's class and her own relationship to monsters, we have reason to believe her perspective is biased from that.




> Therefore, I think Rich's thought processes around strip #100 when he needed to pick a species for the character MitD would not be focused on the stat block of the creature in the MM, but on a creature that would help him tell a story. 
> 
> ...
> 
> But what would Rich want when making his choice? I hypothesize:
> Fun to draw and will be impressive when revealedSomething not "always evil" but probably "tends towards evil", as redemption and growth are a big part of the storySomething that is powerful enough to be important to the battle between good and evil, but not so powerful as to render the Order irrelevantSomething that his readers would be able to understand; not too obscure or weird


I repeat myself, but there's always "has some of kind of thematic resonance or parallel with the character arc MitD is on."

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> we have reason to believe her perspective is biased


If her bias prevents her from saying something true about the Monster in the Dark, then she is saying something false about the Monster in the Dark.

----------


## Keltest

> The quote is, "Devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears."


Even if he maybe implied it a lot.

----------


## lio45

> I believe we have Word of Giant that his goal in the Tower scene was not to provide information about MitD per se, but to demonstrate that MitD is a credible threat to the Order of the Stick all by himself.


It's obviously both at the same time: demonstrate that MitD is a real threat, by having MitD do, on screen, high-power stuff that does not in the slightest way contradict what type of creature he actually is.

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## Tubercular Ox

> It's obviously both at the same time: demonstrate that MitD is a real threat, by having MitD do, on screen, high-power stuff that does not in the slightest way contradict what type of creature he actually is.


What if Rich picked a monster CR-appropriate to the rest of the story, like Shining Wrath suggests, then found that, while it was powerful enough to be a threat to the party, it was difficult to "remove all doubt" that it is a threat in a single comic or two?  Would Rich cancel the comic because he picked the wrong monster and couldn't make the scene go?  Would Rich switch monsters at this late date so he could have something more threatening?  

What wouldn't Rich do to avoid canceling the comic or switching monsters?

I think the Tower scene is not meant to play fair with the MitD crowd, the stakes are too high.  Roleplaying requirements unnecessarily complicate Rich's job in this scene without his permission.

----------


## Keltest

> What if Rich picked a monster CR-appropriate to the rest of the story, like Shining Wrath suggests, then found that, while it was powerful enough to be a threat to the party, it was difficult to "remove all doubt" that it is a threat in a single comic or two?  Would Rich cancel the comic because he picked the wrong monster and couldn't make the scene go?  Would Rich switch monsters at this late date so he could have something more threatening?  
> 
> What wouldn't Rich do to avoid canceling the comic or switching monsters?
> 
> I think the Tower scene is not meant to play fair with the MitD crowd, the stakes are too high.  Roleplaying requirements unnecessarily complicate Rich's job in this scene without his permission.


I dont even understand this line of thinking. Why would Rich pick a monster that wasnt strong enough for the story he wanted to tell with it?

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## woweedd

> I dont even understand this line of thinking. Why would Rich pick a monster that wasnt strong enough for the story he wanted to tell with it?


I think what they're suggesting is that Rich picked a monster that fit, found it didn't fit for the tower scene, and, apparently, they have a low enough opinion of his talents to belive he'd cheat and give us a false clue instead of just...Re-writing the scene a little. I think this is just another attempt to discard the parts that don't fit their prefered monster.

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## lio45

> What if Rich picked a monster CR-appropriate to the rest of the story, like Shining Wrath suggests, then found that, while it was powerful enough to be a threat to the party, it was difficult to "remove all doubt" that it is a threat in a single comic or two?  Would Rich cancel the comic because he picked the wrong monster and couldn't make the scene go?  Would Rich switch monsters at this late date so he could have something more threatening?  
> 
> What wouldn't Rich do to avoid canceling the comic or switching monsters?
> 
> I think the Tower scene is not meant to play fair with the MitD crowd, the stakes are too high.  Roleplaying requirements unnecessarily complicate Rich's job in this scene without his permission.


That makes absolutely no sense. It is trivial for an author to show that a super-powerful monster is super-powerful without having to cheat by showing the monster do powerful things that are NOT among the very strong powers that he does have, whatever they are. 

The requirement of the scene: MitD and Miko encounter each other, and MitD ends up doing something to Miko that 1) doesn't kill her, 2) shows that MitD has great capabilities to be a dangerous threat, and 3) uses MitD's actual capabilities, rather than other capabilities that MitD does not have.

It's pretty much a truism that if MitD is a high-CR monster that can be highly dangerous if he wants to, then MitD can be shown by the author doing dangerous things *that are within his abilities.*

Because, well, if MitD can't be doing anything dangerous to Miko without the author having to cheat or greatly exaggerate, then it automatically follows that MitD is a low-CR weakling, an untenable conclusion.

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> I think what they're suggesting is that Rich picked a monster that fit, found it didn't fit for the tower scene, and, apparently, they have a low enough opinion of his talents to belive he'd cheat and give us a false clue instead of just...Re-writing the scene a little. I think this is just another attempt to discard the parts that don't fit their prefered monster.


Actually, rewriting the scene a little is exactly what I'm proposing.  Rich arranged for the Monster in the Dark to have its attack and defense on separate rounds.  Then he let it show off its strongest defense (during which it can't attack) and strongest offense (during which it can't defend), and then he told us, "It tries to hit lightly and fails," to close the plothole for anyone who can't see an unwitting sucker punch in the art. 

With only a little motivation, Rich could pass off a CR-appropriate monster as much stronger, and not feel guilty because the Tower Scene was not written to be fair to MitD fans.  It was meant to make the Monster in the Dark look strong, and there are ways to do that other than being CR-inappropriate.




> It is trivial for an author to show that a super-powerful monster is super-powerful


Assuming that Rich would want a super-powerful monster in the first place requires at least as much psychoanalysis as anything I've ever done.  Shining Wrath is right, a CR-appropriate encounter makes a lot more sense, especially when Rich was picking a monster at strip #100.

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## Peelee

> What if Rich picked a monster CR-appropriate to the rest of the story, like Shining Wrath suggests, then found that, while it was powerful enough to be a threat to the party, it was difficult to "remove all doubt" that it is a threat in a single comic or two?  Would Rich cancel the comic because he picked the wrong monster and couldn't make the scene go?  Would Rich switch monsters at this late date so he could have something more threatening?  
> 
> What wouldn't Rich do to avoid canceling the comic or switching monsters?
> 
> I think the Tower scene is not meant to play fair with the MitD crowd, the stakes are too high.  Roleplaying requirements unnecessarily complicate Rich's job in this scene without his permission.


So here's the issue. This question is unanswerable, because this question is heavily flawed. Your premise begins at a completely unfounded assumption - that the creature is at an incredibly specific level of power that it is both a credible threat to the characters but also unable to establish that it is a threat - and then you build on this baseless assumption with yet another completely baseless assumption, that the author would cancel the entire strip over this. The only proposed solution, according to you, is for the author to "cheat" a little - to kind of fudge things. Your question is a baseless assumption on top of a baseless assumption that flows into a false dichotomy. And you use this to demonstrate your thought process on why you think something is the case.

I'm not going to try to argue you out of thinking the way you do. You so you, man. But I do think that explaining exactly what this train of thought entails might help you understand why tickets to ride aren't selling like hotcakes.

----------


## hroþila

Sometimes I click on this thread and no matter how far back I scroll up I have no idea what the conversation _really_ is about. Where do the sucker punches and the idea that the MitD is level-appropriate come from

----------


## Fyraltari

> Sometimes I click on this thread and no matter how far back I scroll up I have no idea what the conversation _really_ is about. Where do the sucker punches and the idea that the MitD is level-appropriate come from


Not sure about the level appropriate, but I think the sucker punch comes from the suggestion that MitD was a creature from an entirely different RPG who threw Miko through a wall by using its tail as a batte and punting.

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## Ruck

> If her bias prevents her from saying something true about the Monster in the Dark, then she is saying something false about the Monster in the Dark.


OK, fair enough. Yes, I do not think Oona's comments about Xykon being MitD's master are accurate (although I think the comments in the second-to-last panel of the strip likely are accurate). I think that scene is mostly meant to show MitD actually pushing back against the idea he should be subservient and unquestioning in a way he wouldn't have pushed back before. Part of the reason I believe this is because of Rich's own comments:




> Oona and her companion also serve as something of a challenge for the Monster in the Darkness. So far, his story has involved burgeoning independence in both thought and deed, sparked by his time spent with O-Chul back in the ruins of Azure City. This autonomy has led him to question his current leaders, Xykon and Redcloak. But Oona offers him a path to back away from this awakening, suggesting that the problem is merely the specifics of who his leaders are. He could easily slip back into oblivious subservience while still holding on to his newfound feelings about Xykon by working for her instead. Greyview further reinforces this by cynically dismissing the idea that independent thoughts or goals have any inherent value whatsoever. Nod. Get treat, is basically the mantra of someone who has given up on everything and now just seeks to maximize the physical comforts available to him by agreeing with whatever his mistress does or says. By rejecting this point of view and continuing to take subtle action against his own teams goals, the Monster in the Darkness shows hes internalized many of the ideas he learned from O-Chul.





> Assuming that Rich would want a super-powerful monster in the first place requires at least as much psychoanalysis as anything I've ever done.  Shining Wrath is right, a CR-appropriate encounter makes a lot more sense, especially when Rich was picking a monster at strip #100.


No, it doesn't. All it actually requires is a belief that all the clues that the monster is, indeed, super-powerful are accurate. If you're going to make the claim you ought to be prepared to support it. I don't think either you or Shining Wrath has supported the case that "a CR-appropriate encounter" (a definition itself open to interpretation) is most likely to be correct or is a starting point for figuring out the MitD. (Shining Wrath's argument doesn't actually lead to his conclusion.)

But this (in conjunction with your longer post, which Peelee has already elegantly answered) works as an example of where I think your thinking is going down the wrong track deductively. Why, in the first place, are we trying to analyze what MitD is based on assumptions of what Rich supposedly thinks the exact right power level for MitD should be, rather than based on the evidence in the text of what MitD can do and what that says about his power level?

----------


## Kish

> As for Oona, what I'm hearing the thread say is that Rich gave up a chance to say something true about the Monster in the Dark so that Oona could say something false about the Monster in the Dark.


Oona is not Rich. Treating every time a character opens their mouth as "Rich has a chance to say something to the audience, which he will prioritize above everything about the actual character speaking" is as detached from Rich's actual demonstrated writing as anything I can imagine.

I also don't get where "SLAs are okay" would come from. Is there a specific poster you're arguing against there or is that just to make the "yeah no, he's not going to hit extra-hard when he's actively trying to hit extra-light" argument look self-contradictory?

Also I confess I am not an expert on sparring. The people sparring are literally trying to hit as lightly as they can? They're not aiming for a "hard enough that my opponent definitely knows they've been hit but not so hard that they fall over?" Not that I'm quite seeing why "make yourself hit harder but be less likely to make contact" would be even a tiny bit desirable either way. People sparring and trying not to injure each other or knock each other down:

1) Might well be using Combat Expertise.
2) If they have Improved Unarmed Strike, will certainly choose the nonlethal damage option.
3) Are likely to go "crap!" if they see they've rolled maximum damage, in the expectation that their opponent is probably a first-level commoner with 4 hit points +/- Constitution modifier.
4)...Would have nothing to gain and everything to lose by using Power Attack, which would get them coming ("because of your reduced attack roll you missed") and going ("when you did hit, you automatically knocked your opponent down").

----------


## Doug Lampert

In any case, sparring is practice for boxing, boxing is a sport where you are trying to knock your opponent out (or to outscore him by landing more "good" punches than he does).

Sparring uses extra padding, but you are still punching hard. The definition of sparring as "hitting as lightly as possible" is not one I'm familiar with.

Boxers do in fact knock each other out in sparring, because they are expected to be hitting fairly hard, they STOP when they have someone at a really serious disadvantage in a sparring match, but AFAIK, the punches they throw follow the maxim, "train like you plan to fight," and are at the same force as those in an actual match.

----------


## lio45

> With only a little motivation, Rich could pass off a CR-appropriate monster as much stronger, and not feel guilty because the Tower Scene was not written to be fair to MitD fans.  It was meant to make the Monster in the Dark look strong, and there are ways to do that other than being CR-inappropriate.


The Tower Scene was written to show that the Monster in the Dark is very powerful, AND it was also, I'm absolutely certain, written while being perfectly fair to MitD fans, because there's no reason to cheat when you can, y'know, just not cheat. 

"MitD is very powerful" is in the same category of takeaways from the comic as "Roy is a fighter", "V is a wizard", "Xykon is Evil", "Redcloak is a goblin". Anyone who refuses to accept any of those -- or "demands" proof and wants to argue -- is just wasting everyone's time, IMO.







> Shining Wrath is right, a CR-appropriate encounter makes a lot more sense, especially when Rich was picking a monster at strip #100.


Not at all. 

Rich never had to consider whether the Monster in the Dark is a "CR-appropriate encounter", since the heroes are never going to be fighting it. 

Also, Rich is a versatile enough author that not every encounter is CR-appropriate. The PCs had a ton of CR-inappropriate encounters. Xykon as final boss of the Dungeon of Dorukan is a good example. Miko when she kicked the whole party's ass is another.

----------


## Saint-Just

Also CR-appropriate for one scene (let's say the tower) is unlikely to be CR-appropriate for the Dungeon of Dorukan and both will be different from CR-appropriate for final confrontation, so the idea of CR-approprate MitD seems to be ill-formed.

----------


## Tubercular Ox

> Also CR-appropriate for one scene (let's say the tower) is unlikely to be CR-appropriate for the Dungeon of Dorukan and both will be different from CR-appropriate for final confrontation, so the idea of CR-approprate MitD seems to be ill-formed.


If I said, "I don't think the Monster in the Dark is going to leave a page or two after the reveal," and/or, "I don't think the Monster in the Dark can wipe the floor with Xykon and Redcloak," and/or, "I don't think the Monster in the Dark would overshadow the party in a fight against Xykon and Redcloak," how would that make you feel?

All of them can be interpreted as indirect comments on the CR of the Monster of the Dark, and all of them provide more specificity than just, "CR-appropriate."

----------


## Kish

So, Ox, how much of the comic do you think will be left for anyone to appear in post-reveal? I expressed wondering about that before, but let me make it an explicit question with a name on it.

----------


## b_jonas

> So, Ox, how much of the comic do you think will be left for anyone to appear in post-reveal?


The previous four books ended with an all-black panel with some text (#484, #672, #946, #1189).  So maybe this last book will also end with an all-black panel: a closeup of the MitD evolving to a black Slaad just as he finally steps out of the shadows.

----------


## woweedd

> If I said, "I don't think the Monster in the Dark is going to leave a page or two after the reveal," and/or, "I don't think the Monster in the Dark can wipe the floor with Xykon and Redcloak," and/or, "I don't think the Monster in the Dark would overshadow the party in a fight against Xykon and Redcloak," how would that make you feel?
> 
> All of them can be interpreted as indirect comments on the CR of the Monster of the Dark, and all of them provide more specificity than just, "CR-appropriate."


I would disagree with the assertion he's not stronger then Xykon. He'd be a pretty terrible trump card if he was weaker. He's not invulnerable, the Gate explosion damaged his umbrella, but, notably, his adventures through Kraggor's tomb didn't. Seriously, look: Even Xykon looks visibly beat up, and he says the monsters in there were strong enough he actually got XP off them, which is rare for a character past Epic level...But MITD's umbrella? Utterly unharmed. Not to mention, ya know, Miko, most powerful Paladin of the Sapphire Guard, and someone who has, twice, taken on the entire Order at once and won, attacked him fully and he didn't even feel actual pain, much less injury. When Belkar tries to stab him, he doesn't even notice it's HAPPENING. Not to mention, ya know, he hit Miko hard enough to send her flying into the distance. I don't think it's implausible to say that, whatever he is, even now, he's probably stronger then Xykon. Certainly tougher.

----------


## halfeye

> I don't think it's implausible to say that, whatever he is, even now, he's probably stronger then Xykon. Certainly tougher.


However, who would win if they fought alone? I suspect that would be Xycon.

----------


## woweedd

> However, who would win if they fought alone? I suspect that would be Xycon.


I mean, yes, but that's not because the MITD is weaker. It's because he has the combat skill of a baked potato.

----------


## lio45

> However, who would win if they fought alone? I suspect that would be Xycon.


That's not the ultimate metric though, as there are ways to win a confrontation without having the most raw power.  

For the first example that comes to mind, in the literary classic "Of Mice and Men", if you asked who'd win if George and Lennie fought each other, I'd say George, because he'd know what to say to convince Lennie to avoid fighting him and become his minion instead.

There are even examples in the strip: Roy beats Thog thanks to using his INT score in combat, but Thog was pretty unarguably a more fearsome opponent than Roy (and unvanquished in the arena so far).

For an even more unbalanced example: Unarmed Roy, alone, manages to beat Xykon at the end of DCF.

Ox's three questions, I have basically the opposite view on all of them. I expect MitD will only get revealed in the grand finale, at the end of Book 7; I am sure MitD is at the very least as powerful as Xykon (why would he have a super secret weapon if he's more powerful than his weapon?); and I am sure MitD could mop the floor with the party (he does not even notice that the Sexy Shoeless God of War is trying his hardest to kill him, that's how out-of-their-league he is).

----------


## woweedd

> That's not the ultimate metric though, as there are ways to win a confrontation without having the most raw power.  
> 
> For the first example that comes to mind, in the literary classic "Of Mice and Men", if you asked who'd win if George and Lennie fought each other, I'd say George, because he'd know what to say to convince Lennie to avoid fighting him and become his minion instead.
> 
> There are even examples in the strip: Roy beats Thog thanks to using his INT score in combat, but Thog was pretty unarguably a more fearsome opponent than Roy (and unvanquished in the arena so far).
> 
> For an even more unbalanced example: Unarmed Roy, alone, manages to beat Xykon at the end of DCF.
> 
> Ox's three questions, I have basically the opposite view on all of them. I expect MitD will only get revealed in the grand finale, at the end of Book 7; I am sure MitD is at the very least as powerful as Xykon (why would he have a super secret weapon if he's more powerful than his weapon?); and I am sure MitD could mop the floor with the party (he does not even notice that the Sexy Shoeless God of War is trying his hardest to kill him, that's how out-of-their-league he is).


To be fair, Belkar is probably the weakest member of the party, most well-suited for slaughtering mooks. To be balanced, it's not like he's weak: Even in Book 4, he was probably one of the higher-level Rangers in...The world, at this point. Him stabbing someone repeatedly, and them not only not taking damage, but not even NOTCING they're being attacked, says a lot, yeah.

----------


## Ruck

The Protean is Challenge Rating 29. That seems plenty strong enough for a secret weapon, and I would think that's stronger than Xykon-- although the exact number of Epic levels he has is indeterminate, he's probably not at level 29 himself, let alone "an encounter of moderate difficulty for a party of level-29 characters."

----------


## hroþila

Personally, I don't think the MitD is stronger than Xykon, or at least that Xykon believes he is. Xykon didn't treat him as his trump card per se, i.e. as something to unleash to turn the tables around when everything seems lost. Rather, he was going to use the MitD before he even got serious himself. Xykon's lines when he was rehearsing the reveal don't suggest trump card to me, they suggest "surprise elite mook that the good guys must defeat (which they'll do with great difficulty, if at all) before they face the actual bad guy". It was more about the theatrics than anything else, which is also why Xykon wanted him to remain hidden. The MitD doesn't need to be stronger than Xykon (or to even come close) to fulfill that role. In fact, I think Xykon would likely have offed the MitD if he actually believed he was stronger than him, because that'd make him someone who wasn't much of a threat at the moment because of his personality (which means Xykon could probably kill him _relatively_ easily if he tried), but who _could_ become an existential threat in the future (and who honestly wasn't providing anything that would offset that risk).

----------


## lio45

There are a few exchanges that suggest MitD is more powerful than Xykon:

(Paraphrasing from memory, in all cases, but I'm confident it doesn't change the meaning and context)


1) When practicing to face the PCs, one of his lines was "you guys can't hope to defeat me, given that I have the power of this thing (MitD) on my side", which strongly hints that MitD is the most powerful thing in the room. (Otherwise, it would have made more sense to say "you guys can't hope to defeat me, given that I am an Epic-level lich".)

2) When escaping, with Xykon destroyed and in the phylactery, he talks about MitD as the star member of their team, a team of which he himself is a part of. Would, say, Lionel Messi refer to the second best player of the Argentine soccer team as the star of the team? Unconceivable.

3) In Xykon's tower that got infested by Good-aligned squatters, Xykon and Redcloak point out that MitD is, or at least should be, the scariest thing around, and that's in Xykon's presence. That comment would make little sense if Xykon, who's right there, is even scarier. 

4) I'm sure I'm forgetting some. The point is, the comic suggests, to me at least, that MitD is even more powerful than Xykon. (He's just too polite to use that power to harm others; I agree Xykon is actually way more dangerous.)

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## Tubercular Ox

> So, Ox, how much of the comic do you think will be left for anyone to appear in post-reveal? I expressed wondering about that before, but let me make it an explicit question with a name on it.


I'm not sure, there are different things that need to happen based on decisions Rich makes.  One thing that must happen, and time for it will exist before the conclusion, is that Rich must recapitulate the Monster in the Dark's story.  This involves digging up all the story moments that were supposed to show us what the Monster in the Dark really is, then demonstrating how what the Monster in the Dark really is created those moments.  This is also the place to explain the red herrings so that they don't look like plot holes on a second read.  If the Monster in the Dark is not present for this, then it will happen entirely in dialog and/or flashbacks.  If the Monster in the Dark is present for this, then it can do things it's done before, only drawn so we can see how it works, as a third option.

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## Throknor

> 3) In Xykon's tower that got infested by Good-aligned squatters, Xykon and Redcloak point out that MitD is, or at least should be, the scariest thing around, and that's in Xykon's presence. That comment would make little sense if Xykon, who's right there, is even scarier.


It's also suggestive* that MITD was distracted for the fight with the silver dragon.  Whether Redcloak and Xykon could have won without the goblin's lucky shot is a side debate of its own but it is worth considering that if MITD had been there the fight might have been a little more lopsided.

(Setting aside whether the fact the MITD played with dragon toys might have affected his willingness to fight one, of course.)

* Suggestive in the sense that Rich has commented on the need to separate V from fights specifically because they could turn the tide by their own power level.  The same thought process could be partly why MITD wasn't there for the only difficult fight in the tower.

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## Ruck

> I'm not sure, there are different things that need to happen based on decisions Rich makes.  One thing that must happen, and time for it will exist before the conclusion, is that Rich must recapitulate the Monster in the Dark's story.  This involves digging up all the story moments that were supposed to show us what the Monster in the Dark really is, then demonstrating how what the Monster in the Dark really is created those moments.  This is also the place to explain the red herrings so that they don't look like plot holes on a second read.  If the Monster in the Dark is not present for this, then it will happen entirely in dialog and/or flashbacks.  If the Monster in the Dark is present for this, then it can do things it's done before, only drawn so we can see how it works, as a third option.


What would this even look like and why "must" it happen?

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## Peelee

> I'm not sure, there are different things that need to happen based on decisions Rich makes.  One thing that must happen, and time for it will exist before the conclusion, is that Rich must recapitulate the Monster in the Dark's story.  This involves digging up all the story moments that were supposed to show us what the Monster in the Dark really is, then demonstrating how what the Monster in the Dark really is created those moments.  This is also the place to explain the red herrings so that they don't look like plot holes on a second read.  If the Monster in the Dark is not present for this, then it will happen entirely in dialog and/or flashbacks.  If the Monster in the Dark is present for this, then it can do things it's done before, only drawn so we can see how it works, as a third option.


I don't think plot holes are what you think they are.

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## Ruck

> I don't think plot holes are what you think they are.


That too. Really, there are just so many things in the reasoning here that are taken as givens that I don't agree with or even understand that I didn't know where to begin.

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## Fyraltari

> I'm not sure, there are different things that need to happen based on decisions Rich makes.  One thing that must happen, and time for it will exist before the conclusion, is that Rich must recapitulate the Monster in the Dark's story.  This involves digging up all the story moments that were supposed to show us what the Monster in the Dark really is, then demonstrating how what the Monster in the Dark really is created those moments.  This is also the place to explain the red herrings so that they don't look like plot holes on a second read.  If the Monster in the Dark is not present for this, then it will happen entirely in dialog and/or flashbacks.  If the Monster in the Dark is present for this, then it can do things it's done before, only drawn so we can see how it works, as a third option.


No? The reveal of the Monster in the Dark's nature ought to be enough to give clear meaning to all the hints. I have a hard time seeing how such "digging" could be justified in the story. Why would anyone bring up the time Redcloak asked the MitD to pull a rope, for example?

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## No good @ names

> I'm not sure, there are different things that need to happen based on decisions Rich makes.  One thing that must happen, and time for it will exist before the conclusion, is that Rich must recapitulate the Monster in the Dark's story.  This involves digging up all the story moments that were supposed to show us what the Monster in the Dark really is, then demonstrating how what the Monster in the Dark really is created those moments.  This is also the place to explain the red herrings so that they don't look like plot holes on a second read.  If the Monster in the Dark is not present for this, then it will happen entirely in dialogue and/or flashbacks.  If the Monster in the Dark is present for this, then it can do things it's done before, only drawn so we can see how it works, as a third option.


In addition to what the others have said, I think Rich has demonstrated already with number of callbacks that reinserting old scenes isn't going to happen unless it's to cast a _different_ light upon the scene.
Personally I think that is an excellent use of the webcomic medium. The entire main comic is easy and free to access. Forum regulars and others' most invested in MitD's identity have probably picked up most of Start of Darkness' plot by osmosis if they haven't bought it. (Sidenote: I have never seen the Princess Bride but I'm fairly sure the internet has taught me the entire plot) Forum regulars also scare me a little with their ability to reference relevant comics in mere minutes... to paraphrase (I think) the demon roaches 
 :Roach:  _take it {the callbacks} to the forums_


I think a good example outside of OoTS is the Larry Gardener Harry Potter books, of which the 2nd, 3rd and particularly 4th had a lot of clunky explainers of events that happened in previous books. The latter books flow much better by the fact Rowling is now able (or allowed) to assume that readers have at least read the previous books, and based on sales could probably assume many also have access to personal copies at their home if they're confused by references to prior events.

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## Tubercular Ox

> What would this even look like and why "must" it happen?


From Sherlock Holmes to Scooby Doo, every mystery plot has a recap at the end where all the mysterious things are demystified.  This isn't a cliche, it's necessary to create closure in the denouement of the subplot.

If I'm forced to explain it more than that, then we need to talk about how what the Monster in the Dark does creates tension, how closure needs tension to happen, and how closure is actually the satisfying part of a story so excluding it isn't really an option.  Then, I don't know, I guess I have to talk about the Mystery genre and what centuries of examples have shown is the best way to create closure in a whodunnit (or, in our case, a whatdunnit).

And then, if we want to talk about it after that, we have to make judgement calls.  Will Rich cater to casual readers who want their denouement inside the story, or will he refer them to liner notes for that part of the story?

As for whether or not it's going to be a drag, a significant part of being an author is finding ways to make things that must happen seem fresh and exciting when they do happen.  I'm not particularly worried about Rich navigating this part of the story, but this part of the story will happen.

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## Keltest

> From Sherlock Holmes to Scooby Doo, every mystery plot has a recap at the end where all the mysterious things are demystified.  This isn't a cliche, it's necessary to create closure in the denouement of the subplot.
> 
> If I'm forced to explain it more than that, then we need to talk about how what the Monster in the Dark does creates tension, how closure needs tension to happen, and how closure is actually the satisfying part of a story so excluding it isn't really an option.  Then, I don't know, I guess I have to talk about the Mystery genre and what centuries of examples have shown is the best way to create closure in a whodunnit (or, in our case, a whatdunnit).
> 
> And then, if we want to talk about it after that, we have to make judgement calls.  Will Rich cater to casual readers who want their denouement inside the story, or will he refer them to liner notes for that part of the story?
> 
> As for whether or not it's going to be a drag, a significant part of being an author is finding ways to make things that must happen seem fresh and exciting when they do happen.  I'm not particularly worried about Rich navigating this part of the story, but this part of the story will happen.


OOTS isnt a mystery novel though, its a comedy webcomic. The MITD's identity is mysterious, but it is not a mystery in the sense that it is a plot we are meant to actively be trying to solve the whole time the comic is going on.

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## woweedd

> From Sherlock Holmes to Scooby Doo, every mystery plot has a recap at the end where all the mysterious things are demystified.  This isn't a cliche, it's necessary to create closure in the denouement of the subplot.
> 
> If I'm forced to explain it more than that, then we need to talk about how what the Monster in the Dark does creates tension, how closure needs tension to happen, and how closure is actually the satisfying part of a story so excluding it isn't really an option.  Then, I don't know, I guess I have to talk about the Mystery genre and what centuries of examples have shown is the best way to create closure in a whodunnit (or, in our case, a whatdunnit).
> 
> And then, if we want to talk about it after that, we have to make judgement calls.  Will Rich cater to casual readers who want their denouement inside the story, or will he refer them to liner notes for that part of the story?
> 
> As for whether or not it's going to be a drag, a significant part of being an author is finding ways to make things that must happen seem fresh and exciting when they do happen.  I'm not particularly worried about Rich navigating this part of the story, but this part of the story will happen.


I mean...I feel like it will be probably be shown, not told, what he can do. In such a way that those scenes now make sense in retrospect. Rich is not known for his flashbacks.

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