# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  Playing a Bard with a wizard in party

## Deadandamnation

Hi everyone,

I'm here to get some advice on what to do in order to not overshadow my fellow companions.

I'm playing a written campaign with 4 others (the dragon Queen or something like that)

The group Is made of:

A barbarian (the guy playing it Is unexperienced but Is doing well so far just by smashing heads, he Always forgot to enter in rage, really like he never raged so far)

A Tempest cleric (he Is unexperienced too, mostly playing the cleric as a Blaster i Guess and selfish as spell selection)

A rogue (experienced player, he's doing the iconic rogue stuff and fighting in melee and outside of combat Is the Spy/scout/disabling device etc.)

A wizard (She is really unexperienced but also never played any tabletop RPG before. Seems to like the class but in her mind probably the magic Is more powerful than what Is in reality.
The rest are trying to push her into a Blaster type of wizard while i'm trying to help her to understand the game and pick more things for the roleplay or utility or effects that She likes to see in play)

Me playing a Valor Bard (Just supporting the group with spells, Heal the deads, disabling enemies, face of the party)

I'm doing a lot or RP since i'm the face, but i try to include others in my speechs so they are forced to interact in some way and it's working somehow.

In combat i'm mostly thinking how to make things easier and less deadly, using Control spells like sleep, fear, pattern and such.

As things are now i shouldn't steal the glory since they feel good doing damage, only exception Is maybe the wizard since i'm actually playing the Bard as a controller wizard and stealing the scene a Little.

Any advice on what i could do Better to keep them alive but leave the wizard space to find Hero playstyle and not overlap?

We are @ third level and not using any side book, Just the player guide.

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## Dungeon-noob

If everyone is new, i'm not sure how easy it's going to be to change things. Also, do first check if they're actually not having fun, i.e. if any change is needed. But here are a few things i'd advise you to to if you want to give the wizard their space.

First, i'd suggest you look over the wizard spell list and take note of which spells are wizard unique, or not available to other members of the party. Those are easy inclusions for more distinctive spell selection. 

I'd also suggest you and the wizard player OOC have a talk about what kind of spells you want to cast, pick a preference for spell types. If you can make sure one of you is doing defensive abjurations while the other does evocations or illusions, you'll have an easier time not stepping on each other's toes. 

I'm not sure how viable it is to try and run her through the rules for her spells and help her get both a better understanding of what her spells do, and how to use them well? I'd have her (re)read the lighting, movement and Attack of Opportunity rules first, since a lot of spells interact with those in ways that easy to overlook.

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## KillingTime

It's definitely the inexperience of the player that's the issue here, rather than any character build overlap.
I've played a Bard in a party with a controller Wizard, but as both experienced players we made a hellish tag team that used to have a field day on a regular basis. Was great fun.

As the previous post says, probably best to just check in with the wizard player to a) see if they're having fun  and b) discuss where they might like to take the character so you can discreetly avoid stepping on their toes.
But there's definitely room for both characters to shine, and if you can set up neat combos where one of you tees up and the other takes the swing then you'll both get to feel awesome.

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## Unoriginal

> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm here to get some advice on what to do in order to not overshadow my fellow companions.
> 
> I'm playing a written campaign with 4 others (the dragon Queen or something like that)
> 
> The group Is made of:
> 
> A barbarian (the guy playing it Is unexperienced but Is doing well so far just by smashing heads, he Always forgot to enter in rage, really like he never raged so far)
> ...


What is the Wizard's subclass?

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## Catullus64

> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm here to get some advice on what to do in order to not overshadow my fellow companions.
> 
> I'm playing a written campaign with 4 others (the dragon Queen or something like that)
> 
> The group Is made of:
> 
> A barbarian (the guy playing it Is unexperienced but Is doing well so far just by smashing heads, he Always forgot to enter in rage, really like he never raged so far)
> ...


This sounds like things are going fine, and you're doing the right thing. If the Wizard player enjoys playing her class mostly for offense, that's not a problem to be solved. Dealing damage is the role that pretty much any class can be good at, and that pretty much never goes amiss. If watching you change the course of a fight with a well-placed control spell inspires her to want to shift more towards that playstyle, well, good news for her: she picked a class capable of backfilling its spell list by scribing new spells.

I'm curious why you're particularly concerned with the Wizard player and not the Cleric. Both are, according to you, inexperienced players trying to play a primarily control/support oriented class as a damage dealer, and the Cleric is the one whose use of spells you describe as "selfish." From this description, that would be the player I might take aside and gently ask "hey, can you help pick up some of the slack in the healing/buffing department?"

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## ChaosStar

From what I read the problem with the Wizard is mostly the rest of the party trying to force her into a specific role, while the OP is trying to get her to understand the rules and help her make her own decision. FWIW, I agree that you should make sure the Wizard is having fun and helping her with her build so the two of you aren't stepping on each other's toes. I also agree that you should have a talk with the Tempest Cleric and get him to help with the Healing/Buffing stuff, though Tempest is IIRC one of the more Blasty Cleric subclasses. Just make sure everyone is having fun.

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## Eldariel

Have The Talk with the party. Control is better than damage and every hammer needs an anvil, which Wizard excels at. Then just point the Wizard towards the better control spells on their list: Wizard naturally wins out there simply due to superior options (Web is the massive one on low levels as is familiar that can help in combat).

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## Deadandamnation

> This sounds like things are going fine, and you're doing the right thing. If the Wizard player enjoys playing her class mostly for offense, that's not a problem to be solved. Dealing damage is the role that pretty much any class can be good at, and that pretty much never goes amiss. If watching you change the course of a fight with a well-placed control spell inspires her to want to shift more towards that playstyle, well, good news for her: she picked a class capable of backfilling its spell list by scribing new spells.
> 
> I'm curious why you're particularly concerned with the Wizard player and not the Cleric. Both are, according to you, inexperienced players trying to play a primarily control/support oriented class as a damage dealer, and the Cleric is the one whose use of spells you describe as "selfish." From this description, that would be the player I might take aside and gently ask "hey, can you help pick up some of the slack in the healing/buffing department?"


Well mostly because i consider the player playing the cleric not interested too much in improving, I advised him to play a Ranger or a Fighter or a Warlock, but he wanted to be a dwarf that smash things in a lightning fashion. He is Happy to do that so it's fine for me.

Until now many mistake have been made, but the fights weren't so punishing so we survived even if many don't play and pay much attention on the mechanic part of the game.

Well the wizard is another story since She rely only on her spells and I want to be kind with the player and maybe teach something without sounding concited.

For example i told her to take a look at Mage Armor and Shield since they have uses and work well mechanically, while not being 'impressive' or also use sleep.
She instead was into the fray with her 13AC and 8HP and went down from a javelin or something like that, the cleric had already used all the slots for guiding Bolt iirc and was playing as a ranged, unlucky also with the cantrips missing a lot of the time.

So in a turn i did Healing Word on the wizard, Sleep on 3 enemys, move flanking the rogue (we use the flanking optional rules) and the fight was over after that.

What i mean Is: i know i did a good 'turn' but don't want to make them feel weaker Just by playing the game in a more optimal way.

In the end maybe seeing Action used in a smart way can make them improve.

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## Deadandamnation

> What is the Wizard's subclass?


I told her to read them all and ask for clarifications, others said: "pick up invocation, what else you could pick?"

So for now She Is and invoker.

The problem Is not Just that, since personally i find invoker subclass a fine choice but more the consequences:

She had to pick the 2nd level spells to writer in the book and i said:
'ask me if you want help or you like some spells in a vacoom; like levitate and/or invisibility are really cool and strong, also web Is nuts" 

Others said: "You are an invoker now: pick up invocation ones scorching ray and shatter or melf acid Arrow (that's not even invok iirc)"

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## Segev

> I told her to read them all and ask for clarifications, others said: "pick up invocation, what else you could pick?"
> 
> So for now She Is and invoker.
> 
> The problem Is not Just that, since personally i find invoker subclass a fine choice but more the consequences:
> 
> She had to pick the 2nd level spells to writer in the book and i said:
> 'ask me if you want help or you like some spells in a vacoom; like levitate and/or invisibility are really cool and strong, also web Is nuts" 
> 
> Others said: "You are an invoker now: pick up invocation ones scorching ray and shatter or melf acid Arrow (that's not even invok iirc)"


"Evoker," not "invoker," and "vacuum," not "vacoom." Sorry, those were bugging me.  :Small Red Face: 

The Evocation subclass is at its best with AoEs, not with direct damage spells that offer spell attacks against specific targets. Not that those are bad, but the evoker subclass doesn't do anything for them. What it does is let her drop _burning hands_ or _fireball_ on top of her allies and minimize the damage they would take.

It does sound like the other players have opinions about how she should be playing it. I would focus on asking her what she wants to be doing. Ask her what she envisions as a "cool scene" when she imagines her character being awesome.

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## Deadandamnation

> "Evoker," not "invoker," and "vacuum," not "vacoom." Sorry, those were bugging me. 
> 
> The Evocation subclass is at its best with AoEs, not with direct damage spells that offer spell attacks against specific targets. Not that those are bad, but the evoker subclass doesn't do anything for them. What it does is let her drop _burning hands_ or _fireball_ on top of her allies and minimize the damage they would take.
> 
> It does sound like the other players have opinions about how she should be playing it. I would focus on asking her what she wants to be doing. Ask her what she envisions as a "cool scene" when she imagines her character being awesome.



Yeah i'll try that route thanks.

Sry my translations sucks: in italian 'invocazione' is Evocation and 'evocazione' Is conjuration, Always get Lost between them hehe

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## Segev

> Yeah i'll try that route thanks.
> 
> Sry my translations sucks: in italian 'invocazione' is Evocation and 'evocazione' Is conjuration, Always get Lost between them hehe


Yikes, that is confusing!

What makes it worse is that, in English, "Invocations" are the Warlock things, like Devil's Sight and Agonizing Blast. So there's that further confusion in the cognates when you translate "invocazione" to "invoker!"

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## Zuras

I would definitely say any solution to your concerns is social rather than mechanical.  Bards dont have many good spell options that arent illusion or charm related, and your solid charisma means you naturally get more mileage out of Disguise Self and similar spells than the wizard.

In that situation, its more on the wizard to avoid overlapping with you, since you dont have that many options to begin with.

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## Eldariel

> Yikes, that is confusing!
> 
> What makes it worse is that, in English, "Invocations" are the Warlock things, like Devil's Sight and Agonizing Blast. So there's that further confusion in the cognates when you translate "invocazione" to "invoker!"


And even worse, in 2e and earlier, current "evocation" *was* named "invocation".

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

To some extent this feels like a solution looking for a problem.  Evokers are good.  At tier 2 (where most people are playing) Fireball is one of the more overtuned spells and Evokers get avoid friendly fire and to just paste damage on top of this.  Magic missile in the hands of an evoker is a good (extremely reliable) single target damage option.
I read so often that 'Control is better than Blasting'.  It can be at times.  Other times the best condition to impose is dead.  As multiple people are learning the game the more reliable tactic is blasting.
I've got one small party I'm playing with at the moment (tier 3) with a Ranged Battlemaster, an Evoker, and I'm a Paly 2/ Swords Bard where until recently I mostly focused on control.  I tried to get the Big Bad, using Silvery Barbs as needed and let the Evoker do his thing.  Now that I have Synaptic Static and Destructive Wave (secrets) there are times I just layer my AOE on top of the Evoker's.  The Battlemaster just cleans up the mess, doing single target damage to whatever's left.

I'd mostly just let the Evoker... Evoke?  Suggest the odd other spell to add variety to the playstyle, but if the other player is having a good time, honestly this seems more like a 'you problem.'

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## arnin77

I agree; Id much rather play my character based on how others are playing theirs than start telling them how they should be playing their characters. If someone wants to play their cleric or wizard a certain way, unless they are asking for advice, I wouldnt be telling them to be something else etc. As a bard, I would think its the best class to help fill in what you want the cleric and wizard to be doing no?

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## Deadandamnation

> To some extent this feels like a solution looking for a problem.  Evokers are good.  At tier 2 (where most people are playing) Fireball is one of the more overtuned spells and Evokers get avoid friendly fire and to just paste damage on top of this.  Magic missile in the hands of an evoker is a good (extremely reliable) single target damage option.
> I read so often that 'Control is better than Blasting'.  It can be at times.  Other times the best condition to impose is dead.  As multiple people are learning the game the more reliable tactic is blasting.
> I've got one small party I'm playing with at the moment (tier 3) with a Ranged Battlemaster, an Evoker, and I'm a Paly 2/ Swords Bard where until recently I mostly focused on control.  I tried to get the Big Bad, using Silvery Barbs as needed and let the Evoker do his thing.  Now that I have Synaptic Static and Destructive Wave (secrets) there are times I just layer my AOE on top of the Evoker's.  The Battlemaster just cleans up the mess, doing single target damage to whatever's left.
> 
> I'd mostly just let the Evoker... Evoke?  Suggest the odd other spell to add variety to the playstyle, but if the other player is having a good time, honestly this seems more like a 'you problem.'


It's hard to explain the whole point of view, but i'm aware of how powerful are and aren't blasting.

To make things maybe more understandable:
We were escaping from a prison, with no weapons at our disposal so the general consensus was hide past the lonely guard.
The guard was a big dragonlike guy (i Guess at least a CR 4) and She (the wizard) told us:
"I could hit the guard with my ray of frost to Kill It and walk past"

So fictionally She thought to 'hamehameha' while instead the result would probably been Just a angry dragonkin.

Anyway they seems to having fun right now, i only Hope She don't get overwhelmed by the wizard 'kind of' complexity

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## Snails

The party is pretty nicely balanced IMO.  Do not worry about the tempest cleric blasting away.  Do not worry about the wizard leaning too much towards blasting.  It is okay.

In combat, you can do just fine with Vicious Mockery, plus a well-timed Hideous Laughter or Sleep.  (And you are not bad in a fight yourself.)

Hideous Laughter will temporarily disable one full health dangerous enemy, and let the barbarian and rogue go to town on everyone else.  With two blasters in the party, sometimes you will see multiple very weak enemies, and Sleep becomes hyper-efficient.  

These will serve you well even into T2.  I like an opening move of Slow or Hypnotic Pattern for a big fight.  Slow will help the frontliners have fun.  Do not overlook upcasting Sleep when there are many vulnerable targets.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> The party is pretty nicely balanced IMO.  Do not worry about the tempest cleric blasting away.  Do not worry about the wizard leaning too much towards blasting.  It is okay.
> 
> In combat, you can do just fine with Vicious Mockery, plus a well-timed Hideous Laughter or Sleep.  (And you are not bad in a fight yourself.)
> 
> Hideous Laughter will temporarily disable one full health dangerous enemy, and let the barbarian and rogue go to town on everyone else.  With two blasters in the party, sometimes you will see multiple very weak enemies, and Sleep becomes hyper-efficient.  
> 
> These will serve you well even into T2.  I like an opening move of Slow or Hypnotic Pattern for a big fight.  Slow will help the frontliners have fun.  Do not overlook upcasting Sleep when there are many vulnerable targets.


With 2 other characters trying to blast, Slow would be my default choice over Hypnotic Pattern.  Yes, the Evoker can work around charmed creatures from HP by not doing damage to them, but when you've got a comparable spell where that's not an issue why bother.  Also, the penalty to Dex saves from Slow will help out the blasty spells.

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## Snails

> With 2 other characters trying to blast, Slow would be my default choice over Hypnotic Pattern.  Yes, the Evoker can work around charmed creatures from HP by not doing damage to them, but when you've got a comparable spell where that's not an issue why bother.  Also, the penalty to Dex saves from Slow will help out the blasty spells.


Good point.  Much better to let this newbie Evoker blast whatever seems convenient, rather than ask her to tip toe around Hypnotic Pattern.

Personally, I prefer Slow.  Hypnotic Pattern can win an encounter.  But I like the reliability of being able to drop it on a scrum with frontliners and enemies mixed together.

It is probable that the Bard will not find space on his known spell list for two Will save targeting 3rd level spells.  I would take Slow here.

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## Deadandamnation

Nice advise for the slow pick.

I think I can afford both pattern and slow, at least in the beginning since my standard pick are:

Hypnotic Pattern, Tiny Hut and Dispel Magic (plus counterspell @10) but Tiny Hut Is covered by the wizard spellbook and Dispel Magic can be traded if both cleric and wizard have It.

That open up the space for Slow and Tongues. Unless i go for the Stinking Cloud/Slow combo but probably replacing the pattern in that case.

How good bestow curse Is in the 5th? Never used It

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## Unoriginal

Don't forget: Bards can heal, Wizards can't.

If the Cleric isn't a fan of spending spell slots on teammates, your Bard having some healing spells in case things go wrong won't step on anyone's toes.

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## Snails

> How good bestow curse Is in the 5th? Never used It


Does not look promising to me, so I have never used it.  So far.

The basic problem is the the curse itself does not accomplish anything without another failed roll of some kind.  So there are two chances for this juicy 3rd level spell slot to do nothing.  And while there are potentially multiple bites at the apple for this spell to bring benefit, it is also a Concentration spell which limits your tactical choices for follow on spells.

I would not say it is bad.  But unless you expect the combat to be decided after more than 3 rounds, it is may not pay good dividends.  Against intelligent enemies or humanoids, you could be casting Command or Hold Person instead, which gives a more immediate punch after the first failed save with a cheaper spell slot.  And those spells could be upcast to hit multiple targets.

I would say I am reconsidering Bestow Curse in T3 play, where I think it is just good enough that an enemy with Legendary Saves would sorely regret not avoiding the effect.  The key here is this would be for a longer combat, when we might want to open the fight spamming 3rd level spells from multiple spellcasters to grind through the Legendary Saves.  I would note that Slow is probably good enough for this purpose, and Bestow Curse would be what the cleric would use.  If the Bard has Bestow Curse, too, sure, that will work.

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## Witty Username

> A wizard (She is really unexperienced but also never played any tabletop RPG before. Seems to like the class but in her mind probably the magic Is more powerful than what Is in reality.
> The rest are trying to push her into a Blaster type of wizard while i'm trying to help her to understand the game and pick more things for the roleplay or utility or effects that She likes to see in play)


You are using alot of enchantment spells as bard, what you could do if the wizard player is leaning control, conjuration spells like web, or grease and black tentacles could be a solution. And that opens one to summon and conjure spells which are pretty fun.

Alternatively transmutation spells can be decent buff spells to go that route, polymorph as king.

On your end, healing and buffing can be things to prioritize over control, if they really like mind affecting spells.

--
bestow curse is interesting primarily if one casts it with a 5th level slot, as it no longer requires concentration. Before that the opportunity cost is probably too much.




> I read so often that 'Control is better than Blasting'.  It can be at times.  Other times the best condition to impose is dead.  As multiple people are learning the game the more reliable tactic is blasting.


Blasting is fun, and reasonably effective, it think the large concerns are shelf life and resources. Blasting tends to mean alot less one and done casting in comparison to control, more multiple spells a fight. At 5th ish, its good because the damage is a significant swing in the fight, as tier 3-4 go, evoker type effects tend to loose that potency, and can get overshadowed by martials. It is never bad though.

Control is more reliably effective, but it is alot of overhead, and it requires a pretty patient mindset, as one's effect on the combat is often less overt.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> You are using alot of enchantment spells as bard, what you could do if the wizard player is leaning control, conjuration spells like web, or grease and black tentacles could be a solution. And that opens one to summon and conjure spells which are pretty fun.
> 
> Alternatively transmutation spells can be decent buff spells to go that route, polymorph as king.
> 
> On your end, healing and buffing can be things to prioritize over control, if they really like mind affecting spells.
> 
> --
> bestow curse is interesting primarily if one casts it with a 5th level slot, as it no longer requires concentration. Before that the opportunity cost is probably too much.
> 
> ...


I know the prevailing wisdom is that Control is better, but I think that comes from a place of experience, both in terms of spell choice and use; I disagree with characterizing them as reliable for less knowledgeable players.  Control spells can mess up your own group as much as enemies depending on the group and where they're placed.  Additionally, there is a certain amount of metagaming regarding weaknesses of foes like saves, even if we're not trying to do it, that benefits experienced players using Control.  For the most part damage spells work to some extent.  Force (Magic missile) is almost always going to work.  Even if enemies save vs. damage spells they generally take 1/2 damage, so you're doing something.  Damage immunities are usually pretty obvious; don't fireball a bunch of fire elementals. 

I think the current thread on Slow vs. Web is a good example of this.  Both are good spells.  Both can be average to poor if used in the wrong circumstance.  Web particularly has the potential to mess up your own party as much as enemies.

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## Snails

> Control is more reliably effective, but it is alot of overhead, and it requires a pretty patient mindset, as one's effect on the combat is often less overt.


I find the mindset of the rest of the party makes a big difference.

I am personally biased towards control.  But in the campaign I am in, the frontliners are a barbarian and TWF ranger who are both inclined to charge in.  Laying down a damaging AoE to soften up some enemies is the most reliable means to swing the combat strongly in our favor.  As already mentioned, "dead" is a very effective debuff.

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## Witty Username

Yeah, its fair that contol is not new player friendly. It requires multiple spells that do different functions and developing a sense of when is the right time for what. I generally think of that as overhead.

Blasting is alot easier to asess moment to moment.

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