# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  Taking Fighting Initiate (unarmed combat) feat on a tier 1 tier 2 monk. Good idea?

## Spo

GM is giving us a free feat at the start of our next campaign. Played a monk before but there was no Unarmed Fighting style available back then. With this style my attacks will be d8s as opposed to d4s and d6s for the first 11 levels. I know that ASIs for Dex and Wis are important for any monk build to help with AC and stunning strike DC, but was wondering if this damage boost was a good trade here. 

Advice?

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## MisterD

I suggest taking and staggering fighter levels so at fighter 4 if you get MA die to D8 you can change fighting style.

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## Rukelnikov

> GM is giving us a free feat at the start of our next campaign. Played a monk before but there was no Unarmed Fighting style available back then. With this style my attacks will be d8s as opposed to d4s and d6s for the first 11 levels. I know that ASIs for Dex and Wis are important for any monk build to help with AC and stunning strike DC, but was wondering if this damage boost was a good trade here. 
> 
> Advice?


Monks can use d8 weapons too, but assuming you wanna go full unarmed and not use weapons. FS Is pretty much a +2 Damage until level 5, and a +1 Damage from level 5-10. Getting +2 Dex is +1 attack and damage.

So, if we put them side by side:

  1-4: +1 Damage (FS) vs +1 Attack (+2 Dex)
5-10: +0 Damage (FS) vs +1 Attack (+2 Dex)

lvl 1-4 I guess could be arguable, +1 Attack would likely be better, but maybe there's reason why you think attack won't be as important and want more damage.

lvls 5-10 +2 Dex gives the same damage bump, and +1 Attack, so there's really no comparison to be done anymore.

So, maybe its ok at lvl 1, if there's some other featworthy style to which you can change. To be completely honest though, a full feat for a fighting style seems to be extremely expensive in almost every case, save for Archery whichs +2 Attack can easily be featworthy.

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## Grod_The_Giant

Partially it depends on how long the campaign is going to run.  Overall, though... I think I'd prefer something that adds new options to a flat damage boost.

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## Unoriginal

> GM is giving us a free feat at the start of our next campaign. Played a monk before but there was no Unarmed Fighting style available back then. With this style my attacks will be d8s as opposed to d4s and d6s for the first 11 levels. I know that ASIs for Dex and Wis are important for any monk build to help with AC and stunning strike DC, but was wondering if this damage boost was a good trade here. 
> 
> Advice?


Unarmed Fighting boosts your Martial Arts bonus attack, your Flurry of Blows, and let you do as much damage as a two-handed staff with no weapon.

Those are not small benefits in tier 1 or 2, and once your Martial Arts die is 1d8 you can just switch the fighting style for something else, like Blind Fighting, so the feat will never be a dead weight. 

And you're getting that feat for free, too, so unless you have another feat you're interested in for mechanical or thematic reasons, I don't see any downside and see several upsides to taking Fighting Initiate: Unarmed Fighting for a Monk.

The one thing I can see as making it not worthwhile is if your subclass doesn't work well with it. Open Hand and Mercy Monks benefits a lot from having stronger unarmed strikes, as they'll be doing a lot of them. A Kensei or Sun Soul, that's another story.

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## diplomancer

Unless you want it for thematic reasons, duelling is better, and will remain better. You can also choose to play a race with natural weapons, bringing your tier 1 strikes to a d6. Or an Elf or Dwarf, who, from level 2, can two-hand a long sword/battle axe with the Monk's upgrade from Tasha's, so a d10 from level 2.

I'd not sacrifice a free feat for that; you could also consider a Dex or Wis half-feat (probably the best choice mechanically, as every extra point of Dex and Wis count for a Monk).

I might consider the Fighting Style Feat for a Shadow Monk: Blind fighting FS, but otherwise the damage increase is simply not significant enough, except at some levels, when you're flurrying.

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## strangebloke

> I might consider the Fighting Style Feat for a Shadow Monk: Blind fighting FS, but otherwise the damage increase is simply not significant enough, except at some levels, when you're flurrying.


Fighting Initiate does let you trade out the fighting style at ASI levels, so you can trade up for blindfighting or something when the d8 becomes irrelevant.

But really, the d8 bonus is overstated and IMO simply not worth it. It's just +1 damage for your unarmed strikes if and only if you're using no weapons. So think about it. 
At level 5 with unarmed fighting style you're doing (1d8+DEX)*4*accuracy with a flurry.At level 5 without unarmed fighting style you're doing [(1d8+DEX)*2+(1d6+DEX)*2]*accuracy with a couple of spear hits and flurry.
That's 2 damage a turn before accuracy is considered! That's like 1.2 with a 60% hit rate. That's nothing! You know what gets you a comparable return? _Weapon Master_ to get longsword proficiency. _Savage Attacker_ outcompetes this. Savage Attacker! Those are both very bad feats.

Now you do get a little more damage from levels 1-4, but those levels go by really fast and you're not flurrying much at level 2 for obvious reasons. 

So yeah. Fighting initiate is for archery, or blindfighting, or superior technique. Not for unarmed style. Its redundant and quite bad, and overall I would strongly prefer piercer, crusher, slasher, alert, lucky, fey touched or any of a dozen other feats.

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## diplomancer

> Fighting Initiate does let you trade out the fighting style at ASI levels, so you can trade up for blindfighting or something when the d8 becomes irrelevant.
> 
> But really, the d8 bonus is overstated and IMO simply not worth it. It's just +1 damage for your unarmed strikes if and only if you're using no weapons. So think about it. 
> At level 5 with unarmed fighting style you're doing (1d8+DEX)*4*accuracy with a flurry.At level 5 without unarmed fighting style you're doing [(1d8+DEX)*2+(1d6+DEX)*2]*accuracy with a couple of spear hits and flurry.
> That's 2 damage a turn before accuracy is considered! That's like 1.2 with a 60% hit rate. That's nothing! You know what gets you a comparable return? _Weapon Master_ to get longsword proficiency. _Savage Attacker_ outcompetes this. Savage Attacker! Those are both very bad feats.
> 
> Now you do get a little more damage from levels 1-4, but those levels go by really fast and you're not flurrying much at level 2 for obvious reasons. 
> 
> So yeah. Fighting initiate is for archery, or blindfighting, or superior technique. Not for unarmed style. Its redundant and quite bad, and overall I would strongly prefer piercer, crusher, slasher, alert, lucky, fey touched or any of a dozen other feats.


Piercer: +1 Dex or Str
Slasher: +1 Dex or Str
Crusher: +1 Con or Str

Why does WotC hates monks?

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## Dork_Forge

What race and subclass are you thinking about?

For damage I'd personally go for Dueling unless you had planned on a grappling build.

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## Spo

> What race and subclass are you thinking about?
> 
> For damage I'd personally go for Dueling unless you had planned on a grappling build.


Thanks everyone for your math and input.

Was looking at halfling Mercy monk.  

If not taking the unarmed combat/fighting initiate feat, then was thinking of halfling Second Chance feat: 

_Increase your Dexterity, Constitution, or Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.  When a creature you can see hits you with an attack roll, you can use your reaction to force that creature to reroll. Once you use this ability, you cant use it again until you roll initiative at the start of combat or until you finish a short or long rest._

Although now looking at Crusher feat:

_Increase your Strength or Constitution by 1, to a maximum of 20.  Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space, provided the target is no more than one size larger than you.
When you score a critical hit that deals bludgeoning damage to a creature, attack rolls against that creature are made with advantage until the start of your next turn._, 

This would give me a free disengage when shoving them back.

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## Dork_Forge

> Thanks everyone for your math and input.
> 
> Was looking at halfling Mercy monk.  
> 
> If not taking the unarmed combat/fighting initiate feat, then was thinking of halfling Second Chance feat: 
> 
> _Increase your Dexterity, Constitution, or Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.  When a creature you can see hits you with an attack roll, you can use your reaction to force that creature to reroll. Once you use this ability, you cant use it again until you roll initiative at the start of combat or until you finish a short or long rest._
> 
> Although now looking at Crusher feat:
> ...


Both are great options, with Second Chance taking some pressure off of your ASIs. I think I'd go with Crusher, personally, more fun and enables skirmishing easily.

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## RogueJK

Squat Nimbleness is also worth considering on your Halfling Mercy Monk.  You get +1 DEX, +5 movement, Acrobatics proficiency, and Advantage on checks to escape a grapple.

All very useful and thematically appropriate abilities for a small Monk.

Personally, I'd go with that over Second Chance or Crusher.

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## diplomancer

Or Mobile, which also gives you a free disengage and helps deal with your relatively low speed for a Monk.

Also a Mercy Monk wants Wis about as much as Dex because of Hands of Harm/Healing, so feats like Observant (or Chef if you want to lean into halfling stereotypes) are also a good option. Fey-touched would give you Hex, which is great on a Monk, but only one hour a day.

I don't think Second Chance is worth it. As a Monk, you have decent reactions already, and though your AC isn't horrible, it isn't great either. So it's good mostly for negating crits, as there's still a decent chance you're getting hit again.

Crusher would be a great option... If it improved Dex. As it is, it's still decent (Constitution is always useful), but I believe there are better options.

If you know the campaign is not getting to level 14, Resilient (Wis) is also a decent choice. 

Skill Expert is always a safe choice for a half-feat, you'll always get good mileage out of Expertise in Stealth or Perception.

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## Witty Username

> What race and subclass are you thinking about?
> 
> For damage I'd personally go for Dueling unless you had planned on a grappling build.


Wouldn't unarmed fighting just be better, since deuling doesn't apply to unarmed strikes?

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## diplomancer

> Wouldn't unarmed fighting just be better, since deuling doesn't apply to unarmed strikes?


I've done the math. Yes, very slightly (because of crits) on tier 1 (more significantly on the rounds you Flurry*). But the feat allows you to change it at ASI levels, so it could be an option to switch it out at level 4... Though I still think it's not that great of a damage increase to be worth the feat. As has been pointed out, even *weapon master* would give a bigger damage increase if you are also using it to even your Dex score (and simultaneously improving your AC, initiative, Dex skills and Saving Throws, and improving your weapon selections- quite useful if the DM does not tailor magic items to the party- and that's a bad feat!)

*But tier 1 and 2 Mercy monks don't want to Flurry much unless they're nova'ing, since Hands of Harm is a more efficient use of a ki point than Flurry of Blows, except against very low AC enemies. Although with unarmed fighting style you'd get two chances per round of using Hands of Harm instead of only one, in my experience, you're still going to run out of ki at tier 1 anyhow, so even if you can't apply it on one round, you're still pretty much guaranteed to use it at some point.

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## Dork_Forge

> Wouldn't unarmed fighting just be better, since deuling doesn't apply to unarmed strikes?


Personally, I prefer flat bonuses to increasing damage die size, more reliable even if it doesn't crit. Since Mercy Monks have plenty to spend their Ki on, one handing a weapon with dueling works pretty well for most of their progression.

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## Unoriginal

> Wouldn't unarmed fighting just be better, since deuling doesn't apply to unarmed strikes?


For a Mercy Monk, it would be better, as they benefit from using unarmed strikes over weapons.

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