# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  advice on paladin for DotMM?

## Sception

playing in a party w/ a few new players.  We just finished lost mines & are going into dungeon of the mad mage.  DM is allowing full retcon/rebuild of the PCs between adventures.  My current guy looks like so:

standard array
s12, d13, c14, i8, w10, h15
current stats
s13(19), d14, c14, i8, w10, h18
half elf, +1 str & dex
prof: perception, insight
spy background
prof: stealth, deception, thief's tools
conquest paladin 5
prof: athletics, intimidation
defense fighting style
fey touched (w/ bless)

standard sword & board paladin gear, plus the following magic items from lost mines:
+1 breastplate
+1 longsword
Gauntlets of Ogre Power

This character is primarily looking to tank, support, and cc.  I want to be able to deal some damage when needed, but am trying to let the other characters claim most of the glory in terms of actually dealing hp damage & killing things.

The rest of the party includes a champion fighter, evoker wizard, and thief rogue (we were playing the classic quartet until my cleric died).  while i think they're mostly sticking to the same classes, the subclasses are subject to change.

...

I'm honestly pretty happy with where my paladin is, though there are some bits I'm considering changing, namely:

fighting style: defense is just bog standard good, and with the character's shield, +2 dex, and +1 breastplate he's already up to that coveted ac20 at level 5.  on the other hand, dueling would help shore up the otherwise lacking damage of a sword & board build.  alternatively, lack of ranged options has been a problem already, so maybe I should switch to blessed warrior to pick up toll the dead - plus guidance, since nobody in the party has it right now?

the feat.  fey touched is good, and misty step in particular can be a big deal for a melee character otherwise lacking in positioning abilities, but there are alternative feats that might be better choices.  telekinetic is also half cha, & would give the character something to do with their bonus action.  while not half-cha, sentinel would help significantly with tanking.  alert could be quite useful given the conqueror's cc options.  warcaster would help w concentration & set up for future multiclassing.  there's also a strong case to be made for the standard melee feats - PAM or GWM, but again I'm trying not to outshine other party members in damage dealt.

speaking of multiclassing, I had intended to dip hexblade at level 5 (the dm haveing asked for no multiclassing until the tutorial adventure was finished, not wanting to confuse new players with excess complications).  However, having picked up the gauntlets of ogre power, the pressure to do so has greatly diminished.

at this point i'm leaning towards taking paladin to at least 6 and probably 8 before I consider any multiclassing, but there's still a strong case to be made for dipping a level or two, whether the previously intended hexblade (curse, shield, mask of many faces), or, since hex warrior is no longer essential, maybe deadlock (mask, spooky form, but sadly no shield), or some form of bard or sorcerer (clockwork might be hard to justify thematically on my half-drow, but intuition tells me having an option to shut off spell resistance could prove valuable in the long term), and i'm certainly open to arguments that I should look into the option sooner rather than later.  the shield spell in particular is a big deal on a tank.

any thoughts/advice?

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## llama-hedge

If you're going as far as Paladin 8, you might as well go to 9 to get 3rd level spells, notably Fear. Speaking as someone who played a conquest paladin/lore bard multiclass from 1 to 20, the subclass aura is very effective at controlling enemy movement. Tanking isn't just about being able to withstand damage: you need to either make yourself an appealing target or take away the option to target the rest of your party.

Form of Dread does look potent in combination with the aura, and dipping warlock would also solve your range problem. However, all this isn't going to happen until quite a long time into the future so your considerations might have changed since then. 

Really, your build looks fine and I wouldn't bother changing it except maybe getting those ranged cantrips.

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## Corran

Between dueling and defense I would keep defense. The +1 to AC will overperform due to the disadvantage on incoming attacks of frightened enemies (sometimes the best positioning will be to be adjacent to enemies, even frightened ones with 0 speed). While the +2 to damage would profit from PAM and sentinel, both of which, while very good feats, I would not prioritize on a conquest paly (if you do though, then more points for dueling).

If your team tries to make something out of blind fighting (which you all seriously could in this set up), that's the fighting style to go with. If you go single class build, then protection might have some value if your fighter changes subclass and goes with a full damage melee build, since for example melee battlemasters can be a bit squishy if they cannot keep moving.

For feats/ASIs, I would go with a concenration booster (warcaster or resilient con; depending on if you multiclass or not; warcaster if yes, resilient otherwise) and with CHA bumps before looking at anything else. Only feat that might tempt me to delay both of these might be insiring leader, but with only 4 characters and with one of them being a rogue and the other a wizard, I wouldn't prioritize it in this particular case.

Unless you plan to mc with divine soul sorcerer specifically (which is a good option for conquest paly; IMO the best even as you can end up with some nice combos, eg conquering presence + web/spirit guardians), then I'd certainly rush paladin 9 (paladin 9 is still a good stopping point for a paly/ds, but paladin 7 is not bad either). Mainly for aura of vitality, since dungeoncrawling will require good off combat healing, for fear, since this is the best spell you can pair your aura of conquest with, and for revivify, since no one else get access to anything for bringing back the dead. And if you are at paladin 9, then you want to rush paladin 10 for aura of courage, so that you can make your fear spell party friendly. One level in caster for shield and a ranged cantrip (along with whatever else you can squeeze in) can be enough to delay your progression to paladin 10 though.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Between dueling and defense I would keep defense. The +1 to AC will overperform due to the disadvantage on incoming attacks of frightened enemies (sometimes the best positioning will be to be adjacent to enemies, even frightened ones with 0 speed). While the +2 to damage would profit from PAM and sentinel, both of which, while very good feats, I would not prioritize on a conquest paly (if you do though, then more points for dueling).
> 
> If your team tries to make something out of blind fighting (which you all seriously could in this set up), that's the fighting style to go with. If you go single class build, then protection might have some value if your fighter changes subclass and goes with a full damage melee build, since for example melee battlemasters can be a bit squishy if they cannot keep moving.
> 
> For feats/ASIs, I would go with a concenration booster (warcaster or resilient con; depending on if you multiclass or not; warcaster if yes, resilient otherwise) and with CHA bumps before looking at anything else. Only feat that might tempt me to delay both of these might be insiring leader, but with only 4 characters and with one of them being a rogue and the other a wizard, I wouldn't prioritize it in this particular case.
> 
> Unless you plan to mc with divine soul sorcerer specifically (which is a good option for conquest paly; IMO the best even as you can end up with some nice combos, eg conquering presence + web/spirit guardians), then I'd certainly rush paladin 9 (paladin 9 is still a good stopping point for a paly/ds, but paladin 7 is not bad either). Mainly for aura of vitality, since dungeoncrawling will require good off combat healing, for fear, since this is the best spell you can pair your aura of conquest with, and for revivify, since no one else get access to anything for bringing back the dead. And if you are at paladin 9, then you want to rush paladin 10 for aura of courage, so that you can make your fear spell party friendly. One level in caster for shield and a ranged cantrip (along with whatever else you can squeeze in) can be enough to delay your progression to paladin 10 though.


Conquest is on my list to play and your assessment rings true.  The way the 7th, 9th (fear) and 10th level features build on the 3rd level one, this subclass seems like a tough one to multi-class out of.  At that point if you want 4th level spells you can stick it out in Paly for 3 more levels or 7 in another class.  If you stick it out you get a Greater Steed and you've got access to AoA.

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## Sception

I'm quite familiar with the conquest pally pull that's strong from level 2 straight through level 13.  Divine & wrathful smite -> conquering presence -> asi (on such a stat & feat hungry build you prefer not to delay these) -> extra attack -> aura of protection -> aura of conquest -> asi (still desperate for stats & feats) -> fear -> aura of courage (not as big a deal, but helps w/ fear) -> improved divine smite (a big deal feature that i feel people don't give enough credit based on how I rarely see it mentioned in discussions of paladin break levels) -> asi (still hungry) -> improved find steed.

its not until 14 that the build has a proper dead level, though in a dungeon crawl improved find steed may not matter as much, so i migh consider ducking out at 13 instead of 14.  or i might stick with paladin for 18 or even 20 levels if ive already made it to 12.  im not too worried about tier 3 & 4 yet.  still gotta survive tier 2.

the multiclassing question is less about abandoning this path early and more about whether to interrupt it briefly for some combination of ranged fallback, short rest resources (as paladins in general, conquest included, are a bit lacking there, and a level or two of warlock offers a lot), & maybe the shield spell.  this was an easy choice before the gauntlets when the character was desperate for that hexblade dip.  now it's an actual decision.

re:sorcerer, divine soul is good, especially in a cleric-less party, and an easy thematic fit, but for conquest clockwork is significantly better.

the extra spells known are helpful, but the big draw is restore balance, which lets you burn a reaction proficiency times per day to negate advantage/disadvantage - in particular negating advantage on a saving throw makes a whole wealth of monsters subject to frighten abilities that are otherwise very hard to scare due to spell resistance.

between that and the usual sorcadin synergy (particularly heighten & quicken metamagic for your frighten spells), clocksoul is one of the few multiclass options worth abandoning the conquest progression outright before level 13 (as opposed to diping out & coming right back).  even as early as level 8, if you think you'll do enough gaming at levels 13+ to make it worth delaying Fear till then.  im not really looking to do that with this character for thematic reasons, but if i were then an early dip for cantrips, shield, & restore balance, going back to paladin until 8 or 9, then back to clocksoul for the rest might be on the table.

again though, not for this character.

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## Aimeryan

My advice would be to take a build like this: https://tabletopbuilds.com/flagship-...chers-paladin/

Paladin damage is alright, the personal defence is alright, and the spells are pretty poor. What really makes going Paladin worth it is the Aura of Protection, and potentially the subclass aura. However, the Aura has problems with the size; preferably you would cover the entire group due to missing even a single person making them the ones liable to take save-or-suck effects. If there are a mix of melee and ranged you just cannot do that. So, the next ideal is to cover the casters, since having them lose Concentration is worse than having a melee suck a little more. The problem here is that Paladins are stuck in melee.

The build above takes two levels of Warlock to grab Agonising Repelling Blast, allowing for alright ranged damage with battlefield control thrown in. This allows you to sit nicely at ranged, allowing you to take less damage, keep Concentrating on spells, and protecting others doing the same. The heavy armour and shield help passively with AC when things do manage to get close, while the the Shield spell can ramp this up for a round. Tanking shouldn't mean running into danger, it should mean being able to take danger when it comes to you.

The multiclassing helps with actually grabbing good spells. Bless is great (and one of the best spells Paladin gets), but eventually you'll want something with more umph.

The subclass for the Paladin is optional, and Conquest is one of the better ones if not going Watcher. The Form of Dread from the Undead Warlock version can work well with this, helping with the tanking element when things do get close. Hexblade does get Shield quicker, though.

Ideally, your Fighter and Rogue would go ranged as well, which really soups this up as a full ranged party with a tank when needed is amazing. Otherwise, well the Rogue needs to get back after going into melee in any case (staying in melee is a quick route to death for them), and the repelling blast can help the melee Fighter take hits from one enemy at a time (ideally, the Wizard would help with battlefield control). In fact, pushing enemies into the Wizard's area effects is one of the strongest ways to be effective - whether that is a Wall of Fire or a Web.

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## CTurbo

I really like your Blessed Warrior fighting style idea for Toll the Dead and Guidance. 

Otherwise, I wouldn't multiclass.

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## Sception

> My advice would be to take a build like this: https://tabletopbuilds.com/flagship-...chers-paladin/
> 
> Paladin damage is alright, the personal defence is alright, and the spells are pretty poor. What really makes going Paladin worth it is the Aura of Protection, and potentially the subclass aura. However, the Aura has problems with the size; preferably you would cover the entire group due to missing even a single person making them the ones liable to take save-or-suck effects. If there are a mix of melee and ranged you just cannot do that. So, the next ideal is to cover the casters, since having them lose Concentration is worse than having a melee suck a little more. The problem here is that Paladins are stuck in melee.
> 
> The build above takes two levels of Warlock to grab Agonising Repelling Blast, allowing for alright ranged damage with battlefield control thrown in. This allows you to sit nicely at ranged, allowing you to take less damage, keep Concentrating on spells, and protecting others doing the same. The heavy armour and shield help passively with AC when things do manage to get close, while the the Shield spell can ramp this up for a round. Tanking shouldn't mean running into danger, it should mean being able to take danger when it comes to you.
> 
> The multiclassing helps with actually grabbing good spells. Bless is great (and one of the best spells Paladin gets), but eventually you'll want something with more umph.
> 
> The subclass for the Paladin is optional, and Conquest is one of the better ones if not going Watcher. The Form of Dread from the Undead Warlock version can work well with this, helping with the tanking element when things do get close. Hexblade does get Shield quicker, though.
> ...


The rogue has been pretty good about staying ranged when things are dicey and only slipping into melee when enemies are already tied up with me or the fighter, helped significantly by the DM basically ignoring the item interaction rules and letting him just use whatever weapons he wants on a given turn.  Fighter has been very melee oriented so far though, so the ability to move in and support that has been pretty key.  We're also going into DotMM, which as I understand it is more or less a strict dungeon crawl, which limits the utility of full party ranged tactics generally.

The wizard has thus far been pretty eager to get in close to catch multiple targets in burning hands or thunder wave - with his survivability while doing so proped up significantly by the staff of defense we took from an enemy npc in lost mines (that adventure really is generous with solid utility items), so keeping the party together hasn't been much of a problem yet, though its sure to become more so as he gains more longer range, aoe, and control options - in particular having just reached 3rd level spells for fireball, plus picked up a spider staff granting him access to web (i tried to encourage web as a spell choice earlier, but he had other priorities).

The option to stay back and support the wizard and or the rogue with auras while still having a reasonable at will action is the main reason why I've been considering either a multiclass dip or changing my fighting style, yeah.  If I do dip 2 levels of warlock, I probably won't get both agonizing and repelling blast.  As nice as that full combo is, there's too much utility in mask of many faces to pass on the opportunity to snag it, especially for a character who is supposed to be a bit of a spy.  DotMM may be mostly a dungeon crawl, but I'm also given to understand that there's a fair bit of faction interplay going on that could make that sort of thing useful.  Plus it would make it easier to hid the character's drow heritage - right now he's relying on hair dye and the influence of his human side, but that only goes so far.


As for medium vs. heavy armor: I picked medium armor for a couple reasons.  First, purely thematically, medium armor fits the concept (paladin of Vhaeraun embodying the now humbled masked god's new aspect as the ideal of drow masculinity - strong, skilled, swift, silent, and subservient). The second reason I went with medium armor was because nobody else in the party is using it, which means I get dibs on any magical medium armor by default, which has already paid dividends on the +1 breastplate, on par with the splint I would otherwise be using if I went with heavy armor (the party hasn't had the means or opportunity to pick up plate yet).  The final reason is that our rogue sometimes likes to scout ahead, but nobody else in the party has the stealth to back them up.  Between stealth & perception proficiency, +2 dex, and non-disadvantaging armor, I can support the rogue on scouting missions.  I'm nowhere near as good at stealth, so I have to hang back a bit, but at the very least they shouldn't have to risk get stuck in a deadly solo combat if something goes wrong.

This decision comes with, in theory, a long term -2 ac penalty (one for medium armor, one for non-disadvantage), as well as some other sacrifices in particular a lot of extra stat strain to keep max cha, +2 dex bonus, and 13 strength to multiclass.  I was stuck with a +2 to my weapon attack stat for multiple sessions, my con bonus is only +2 which isn't great for a tank, and to make it work at all I was kind of pushed into half elf, where I might otherwise have gone with another race entirely.  I absolutely agree that heavy armor use would have been superior from an optimization perspective, but it's not one of the elements that's on the table for a possible change right now.  If worse comes to worst, now that I have the gauntlets of ogre power I can always switch to heavy armor in the future should the ac penalty get to be too painful.


Re: subclass: watchers is fantastic, though I'm not as impressed with their oath spells.  Still, I prefer conquest on this character for the oath list and control elements.  Our wizard prefers blast spells, at least for the moment, so being able to throw out some aoe cc has been quite helpful for the party.  Plus conquest is just fun - best implementation of a 'dark knight' character concept in 5e, maybe in D&D period.

Re: paladin spells: I think they're a bit better than you're giving credit for, particularly with oath of conquest and the additions from new spells and expanded spell lists in Tashas.  It's probably worth noting that all of the tasha's optional class rules are in effect now that we're out of the tutorial zone.  But yeah, spell selection is the biggest reason to eventually multiclass out altogether.





> I really like your Blessed Warrior fighting style idea for Toll the Dead and Guidance.


So far what I'm hearing from this thread is an even split between 'you're good as you are', 'dip a couple levels of warlock for a ranged option', and 'don't multiclass, but do switch your combat style to pick up a ranged cantrip'.  Kind of funny that thread seems to be exactly as torn between those three options as I already was going in.  :p

But that also reinforces my feeling that I've got a solid handle on the situation, and the options in front of me really are about as evenly balanced as I thought, so it may not matter too much which I go with.

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## Aimeryan

Dungeons can actually be better for a ranged party than open areas, if battlefield control is available. The reason for this is that chokepoints and small areas are ideal for forcing enemies to engage with the area of effects. A large part of this is that diagonals in 5e do not require more movement than just going straight - so skirting areas doesn't take much/any more movement. You don't really need much distance if you can slow and push back enemies.

One concern about tanking by putting yourself up with the Fighter is that it kind of requires that the DM be complicit with this. Essentially, the DM _could_ just choose to attack the Fighter, ignoring anyone else in melee. Another issue is that battlefield control becomes more difficult to set up the more allies are stuck in melee due to restricting placement - so it actually hinders stopping the enemies from getting to the Fighter.

One solution is for the Fighter to engage enemies in melee once they manage to get through the battlefield control, preferably one at a time. This is where something like Repelling comes very handy - knocking an enemy back up to 20ft at level 5, up to 30ft at level 11, can separate them into small individual fights. Until that point, the Fighter could throw Javelins or use a ranged weapon (depends on stat allocation). There is little to gain by putting themselves at risk by running into a group of enemies, and a lot for the party to lose by not being able to Web/Hypnotic Gaze/etc. Let the enemy do the hard work of getting to the party, since they tend to suck at ranged (many have no options at all). If the Fighter does go Leeroying in, well, they'll likely hang back in future fights once those hitpoints aren't looking so good  :Small Amused: 

Masks is fun. Repelling isn't completely necessary, although it really is pretty great here. The ability to knock enemies back into battlefield control is very powerful. Agonising is also pretty key, unless you really want to give up on damage. Five levels in Warlock would likely not be optimal (mostly because it puts off Sorc level 3 spells even further), but its a possibility for another invocation. Feats are problematic with the multiclassing breakup, but possible - you could go to level 8 Paladin instead of level 5 Warlock.

Medium armour and heavy armour are pretty much equal, just depending on stats. The issue with Paladin is that you need 13 Str anyway to multiclass out - if your DM waives that (or allows you to substitute with Dex, like Fighter) then medium armour becomes fine. Otherwise, its difficult to get 13 Str, 14 Dex, 14/15 Con , not completely dump Wis, and have 15 Cha (before racial stats). Drop the Str requirement, though, and all is good.

Conquest and Undead would work well together. Regarding watchers level 3 Oath spells, they are pretty dire. However, the level 5 Oath spells (Moonbeam and See Invisibility) are not bad - especially with Repelling knocking enemies back into Moonbeam after they escape. In regards to the Paladin spells in general, this article has a good look at them (and pretty much everything else Paladin related): https://nystulsmagicwebsite.wordpres...ded-dont-work/

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

I like the Med Armor option, particularly as you've already got a +1 Breastplate.  My nastiest character was a Dex based Paly with 1 level of Rogue for expertise in Stealth and a bit of Sneak Attack damage.  I also took expertise in Athletics and Shield Master feat.  Our whole group was Stealthy and we could end a lot of encounters before they started; depending how your DM handles Surprise this can be really strong.  DotMM has a lot of levels where these sort of tactics can work.
As another poster mentioned, one significant issue here is you're making a MAD character even more so due to multi class requirements (Strength) of Paly.  But under the right conditions it's worth the trade off.

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## Sception

> Medium armour and heavy armour are pretty much equal, just depending on stats. The issue with Paladin is that you need 13 Str anyway to multiclass out - if your DM waives that (or allows you to substitute with Dex, like Fighter) then medium armour becomes fine. Otherwise, its difficult to get 13 Str, 14 Dex, 14/15 Con , not completely dump Wis, and have 15 Cha (before racial stats). Drop the Str requirement, though, and all is good.


I appreciate the feedback, though I fear we're talking in circles a bit.  For example, again, I fully understand the reason why heavy armor is preferred, and indeed was backed into half elf specifically so I could hit the stat targets you mention.


I also feel you have missed the bit where our wizard is played by a new player who favors blast spells over control.  I've made some suggestions here & there, but absolutely do not want to back seat their first character, that would be seriously uncool (and the same would apply to flat out telling the fighter with his family heirloom great axe he wrote a whole back story about that he should spend his turns throwing javelins until a suitable great axe target comes to him).  So if I want the party to have control options, I kind of need to bring them myself.  Hence conquest over watchers in the first place.

It's possible things will change in the future - the wizard did just pick up that spider staff, maybe it will teach them the joys of web and through it open them up to the wider world of battlefield control.  If that does happen, I have a pre-prepared narrative arc in my back pocket to justify a future subclass change (as I spend more time with these surface folk they begin to teach me their strange concepts of 'friendship' and 'equality' and 'social interactions not based on displays of dominance and excessive cruelty', eventually the drow supremacist indoctrination starts to slip, leading me to break my oath of conquest and subsequently adopt a new oath to 'watch out for' my new comrades).

I don't currently /expect/ things to go that way, the wizard so far is quite happy blowing stuff up and racking up the largest kill count in the process, but the path is there.

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## Corran

> Conquest is on my list to play and your assessment rings true.  The way the 7th, 9th (fear) and 10th level features build on the 3rd level one, this subclass seems like a tough one to multi-class out of.  At that point if you want 4th level spells you can stick it out in Paly for 3 more levels or 7 in another class.  If you stick it out you get a Greater Steed and you've got access to AoA.


I mean, the shield spell and a good ranged attack can be a big deal. If you either need one or both desperately, or at the very least you can make pretty good use of them, you (eventually) multiclass out without worrying too much about what you are delaying. That said, the one time I played a conquest paladin I did go for the singleclass experience (up to level 12 eventally) and I did not regret it (though we were not challenged too hard tactically). The only thing I wished we had a bit more off was better CC AoE options (at least anything better than entangle). And on that note, do be mindful about how frightening enemies can backfire in some occasions, ie them circling you and going after allies of yours that you would rather not.






> the multiclassing question is less about abandoning this path early and more about whether to interrupt it briefly for some combination of ranged fallback, short rest resources (as paladins in general, conquest included, are a bit lacking there, and a level or two of warlock offers a lot), & maybe the shield spell.  this was an easy choice before the gauntlets when the character was desperate for that hexblade dip.  now it's an actual decision.


Any extenssive dungeoncrawling is all about attrition. Ranged attacks help with attrition. I'd take the haxblade level early. That is, I'd take warcaster at first opportunity (paladin 4), and I'd take the warlock level right after that (ie at character level 5, conincidently when cantrips also power up). Shield is also very useful and it can help you endure a beating if you have to, eg for the rogue to get their sneak attack in or for the evoker to fire a well placed AoE after you've lured enough enemies on you (which you can attempt to survive with better odds when you do have the shield spell). After paladin 4/warlock1 I'd rush paladin 9, mainly for aura of vitality, which is another good way to counteract attrition. At the same time you'll get fear and revivify, which do put a lot of stress on your 3rd level slots at that point (as revivify begs for careful resorce management on those slots, and the fear spell is like your main deal when you are a conquest paladin). After paladin 9/warlock1, there are lots of good options. Warlock 2 will further boost your ranged attack at he same time of it powering up again, paladin 10 will give you aura of courage which transforms one of fear's downsides into a benefit, or you could go for another fullcaster mc to fuel your 3rd and higher level slots faster which at level 9 I bet it will sound like an extremelly good idea (at that point it's a decent idea).

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> I mean, the shield spell and a good ranged attack can be a big deal. If you either need one or both desperately, or at the very least you can make pretty good use of them, you (eventually) multiclass out without worrying too much about what you are delaying. That said, the one time I played a conquest paladin I did go for the singleclass experience (up to level 12 eventally) and I did not regret it (though we were not challenged too hard tactically). The only thing I wished we had a bit more off was better CC AoE options (at least anything better than entangle). And on that note, do be mindful about how frightening enemies can backfire in some occasions, ie them circling you and going after allies of yours that you would rather not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any extenssive dungeoncrawling is all about attrition. Ranged attacks help with attrition. I'd take the haxblade level early. That is, I'd take warcaster at first opportunity (paladin 4), and I'd take the warlock level right after that (ie at character level 5, conincidently when cantrips also power up). Shield is also very useful and it can help you endure a beating if you have to, eg for the rogue to get their sneak attack in or for the evoker to fire a well placed AoE after you've lured enough enemies on you (which you can attempt to survive with better odds when you do have the shield spell). After paladin 4/warlock1 I'd rush paladin 9, mainly for aura of vitality, which is another good way to counteract attrition. At the same time you'll get fear and revivify, which do put a lot of stress on your 3rd level slots at that point (as revivify begs for careful resorce management on those slots, and the fear spell is like your main deal when you are a conquest paladin). After paladin 9/warlock1, there are lots of good options. Warlock 2 will further boost your ranged attack at he same time of it powering up again, paladin 10 will give you aura of courage which transforms one of fear's downsides into a benefit, or you could go for another fullcaster mc to fuel your 3rd and higher level slots faster which at level 9 I bet it will sound like an extremelly good idea (at that point it's a decent idea).


I've never really seen the need for Paly's to invest in improving their ranged attack, particularly compared to a Strength based fighter.  Most of the time you're better off to cast a concentration spell on round 1 and close than whatever mediocre attack you're going to get with limited investment.  You've also got a magical Steed by level 5 and a Flying one by 13 to help you close distance.  Worst case, occasionally you've got to chuck a javelin for a round, but the difference between that and a cantrip is really not going to make or break an encounter, particularly vs delaying one of your amazing auras or upper level spells.  In the cast of the Conquest you've got another great spell already on your list to work with your Steed: AoA.
On Shield, this as a good additional option, but Paladins at our table are seldom finishing an adventuring day with remaining slots regardless.  So the most likely case is trading Divine Smites for Shield, which is an upgrade at times, but not a need.  That said, I could see this being table dependent, particularly at upper levels if slots are being left on the table.

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## Corran

> I've never really seen the need for Paly's to invest in improving their ranged attack, particularly compared to a Strength based fighter.  Most of the time you're better off to cast a concentration spell on round 1 and close than whatever mediocre attack you're going to get with limited investment.  You've also got a magical Steed by level 5 and a Flying one by 13 to help you close distance.  Worst case, occasionally you've got to chuck a javelin for a round, but the difference between that and a cantrip is really not going to make or break an encounter, particularly vs delaying one of your amazing auras or upper level spells.  In the cast of the Conquest you've got another great spell already on your list to work with your Steed: AoA.


Yeah, but (putting aside the assumption on starting distances which by no means is something the pc's cannot influence) dont think of it just in terms of action economy. Think of it in terms of tactics too. Say that a party of tier 2 pc's has to fight against a few fire giants in an abandoned ruined town, where pressumably it's much easier for the pc's to take cover than it is for the giants. Looking at this fact, and at what the giants can do, I would want to engage in ranged for as much as possible (ideally pairing that with luring the giants to some kind of preplanned trap for a major blow). Whether that's actually a good idea depends on the pc's capabilities. If the pc's are heavily geared towards melee and neglected their ranged capabilities, it will have to be melee combat, thus you are not engaging as favourably as you could have due to your own party's inefficiencies. Two levels to add ranged dpr along with considerable personal survivability (shield and extra slots) to your pc is an interesting proposition. How much you make use of that can vary of course.

There are circumstancial benefits too. Such as being able to attack a priority target you wouldn't be able or you wouldn't be willing to (eg due to reckless positioning) with a melee attack. Or being able to contribute damage wise more consistently when you are low on HP.





> On Shield, this as a good additional option, but Paladins at our table are seldom finishing an adventuring day with remaining slots regardless.  So the most likely case is trading Divine Smites for Shield, which is an upgrade at times, but not a need.  That said, I could see this being table dependent, particularly at upper levels if slots are being left on the table.


Heh, if you hadn't told me that the conquest paly is on your to-play list, I would think you had already layed one. Fair point. And let me tell you. At level 5 it does not get easier. Aid, smites, spiritual weapon and armor of agathys can all make good use of this slot. And that's even before looking at your more situational options. At level 9 is when you start screaming. You (and when I say "you", what I really mean is "I") really want to keep one slot open, just in case you need it for revivify or in case something ambushes you during rest (that last part goes for all slots, but in my mind it helped me justify trying to keep it open for revivify at the same time). You also have fear, and I know frm your earlier post that I dont need to explain anything here. You'll have enemies that you'll really want to smite with your highest level slot. Aura of vitality for the long days (damned spell less fighters and their pitifull defenses). Occasionaly dispel magic (if your caster didn't make the session). I dont need to try and stretch it further.

All that said, I wound't secondguess grabbing shield just because of spell slot management. I would look to cut down a bit from {smites, shield, sanctuary, healing word, armor of agathys, wrathful smite, spiritual weapon, hex, aid, absorb elements, plus whatever else I am forgetting}, because this is most likely too many answers for the number of low level slots I will have, so a lot of it will go unused. But secondguessing shield because of slot management. Nah. Dont get me wrong, it's not a must-pick by no means. But the difficulty of the campaign is the deciding factor here IMO. If I wanted to push for more character power, I'd include it. More options means that it's more likely to get it wrong more often and to make mistakes that can cost you, but that's something I can work on so I would not let it stop me.

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## Mors

Some thoughts:
- If being effective in melee is your primary concearn regarding your feats, Polearm Master is king, since it provides you with an additional attack per round plus attack on reaction.
- Regarding multiclassing: Grabbing one lvl of Hexblade warlock as soon as possible is an upgrade, in order to be able to use charisma in attack and damage rolls and cast shield on reaction. After that going at least Paladin 7 is a priority for the extra attack, the Aura of Protection and the Aura of Conquest. After the 7th Paladin lvl, contiuning with paladin has less value, so you can consider talking an additional lvl in warlock for eldrich blast, or/and talking a sorcerer lvl (divine soul being the best option) for absorb elements and more shield casts. If the session continues past that lvl, having access to higher lvl spellcasting and more spell slots is the strongest option, so continuing with sorcerer is ideal, though is is by no way a must-do if you prefer continuing with paladin. The 8th lvl of Paladin offers and ability score increase, so you do have a decent motive to continue with Paladin for at least one more lvl.

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## Sception

re: "why worry about ranged options", spoilers for lost mines, but in just the previous adventure we fought a flameskull that refused to descend below 15' in the air, and a wizard with spider climb that spent the whole fight on the ceiling supported by four giant spiders that didn't descend from the ceiling until most of the party was webbed up.  in both cases support spells were cast, but lack of ranged options left me with limited ability to contribute on more than one turn.

i don't know if DotMM is likely to feature many similar encounters, ive never read or run it before, and don't want to spoil myself by looking.  but having a secondary ranged attack can matter quite a bit.

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## Sception

> - If being effective in melee is your primary concearn regarding your featso


per the original post, it is not.  support/buffing, cc/debuffing, and to some degree tanking are my primary concern.  I specifically want to avoid damage optimization in order to leave the glory of actually defeating enemies to the new players in the group.




> - Regarding multiclassing: Grabbing one lvl of Hexblade warlock as soon as possible is an upgrade, in order to be able to use charisma in attack


this was the plan except my character has aquired a set of gauntlets of ogre power, again per the original post.  even after already raising cha at level 4, hex warrior would not improve my attack.  and even in a long term perspective could only theoretically improve my attack stat modifier by +1 after maxing charisma, which would be at earlierst possible level 13 (due to delayed asi for dip and having to take warcaster).

I'm not looking for white room paladin, or even conquest, advice.  I have played many paladins, including many conquerors, and was active in the build's dedicated optimization thread.

The question here is mostly whether multiclass dipping is still worth delaying conquest progression early, & if so whether hexblade is still the best choice for it, if hex warrior is essentially no longer relevant due to a magic item already solving the split attack stat madness issue.

so far opinions on that question seem pretty split.

at the moment, I'm leaning towards stayibg single classed but swapping out defense style for blessed warrior to pick up toll the dead as a ranged fallback and guidance for support in non-combat-encounters, plus to help my stealth checks when backing up the rogue on scouting missions.

see how that goes for levels 5 to 7, and reasses when i hit level 8, retraining back to defense via martial versatility if the ranged option & bless have proven not to be worth the ac trade, or if ive decided to take a multiclass dip next level after picking up warcaster anyway.

but i have until tomorrow to decide, plenty of time yet for me to change my mind.  AC 20 /is/ such a nice, round number, it it does hurt my heart to drop it back to 19.  way more than dropping from 21 to 20 or 19 to 18 would have hurt, for dumb irrational psychology reasons .

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> re: "why worry about ranged options", spoilers for lost mines, but in just the previous adventure we fought a flameskull that refused to descend below 15' in the air, and a wizard with spider climb that spent the whole fight on the ceiling supported by four giant spiders that didn't descend from the ceiling until most of the party was webbed up.  in both cases support spells were cast, but lack of ranged options left me with limited ability to contribute on more than one turn.
> 
> i don't know if DotMM is likely to feature many similar encounters, ive never read or run it before, and don't want to spoil myself by looking.  but having a secondary ranged attack can matter quite a bit.


I mean, a Command Spell: Approach (1st level, non-concentration) would work on both the Wizard and the Flameskull.  Sure the Wizard could Counterspell, but then it would be vulnerable to whatever other spells the party has.
Also, I'm not exactly sure of RAW, but a mounted character with a reach weapon should be able to attack 20 or 25 feet up, so unless they are in an area with tall ceilings kiting in this way isn't possible.

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## Sception

> I mean, a Command Spell: Approach (1st level, non-concentration) would work on both the Wizard and the Flameskull.  Sure the Wizard could Counterspell, but then it would be vulnerable to whatever other spells the party has.
> Also, I'm not exactly sure of RAW, but a mounted character with a reach weapon should be able to attack 20 or 25 feet up, so unless they are in an area with tall ceilings kiting in this way isn't possible.


mounted on a large creature + reach can attack 20 feet up.  my character was already carrying a whip, and now that finesse is no longer an issue I'll want to pick up a lance.  But a dungeon / cave setting makes it hard to keep a mount around, as open encounter areas tend to be connected by narrow passageways, stairs, ladders, etc.  the selling point of find steed is that you can cast it yesterday.  re-summoning the mount during the adventuring day when i get to a new open area after having to leave it behind in the previous one can burn through second level spell slots pretty fast.

i could maybe talk the dm into letting me use a giant lizard as a steed for the climb speed, which would help it stay with the party and help me reach enemies higher up.  it would also fit with the chatacter's drow connections.  sadly, there's no explicit riding lizard in 5e, and the regular giant lizard stat block you're supposed to use instead is a pretty questionable mount what with only 30' speed.

EDIT: I've been informed that out of the abyss has specific stats for some underdark mounts.  will look into that.

command: approach (or my preference command: fall) is good, but it burns an action, burns a limited spell slot, requires a failed wisdom save, rewuires a shared language, and only buys you one turn before a flying or climbing enemy can be back out of reach.  certainly a strong option to consider though, especially now that i can up cast it to level 2.  one im embarrased to say i hadn't thought of in this context, so thank you for pointing it out.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> mounted on a large creature + reach can attack 20 feet up.  my character was already carrying a whip, and now that finesse is no longer an issue I'll want to pick up a lance.  But a dungeon / cave setting makes it hard to keep a mount around, as open encounter areas tend to be connected by narrow passageways, stairs, ladders, etc.  the selling point of find steed is that you can cast it yesterday.  re-summoning the mount during the adventuring day when i get to a new open area after having to leave it behind in the previous one can burn through second level spell slots pretty fast.
> 
> i could maybe talk the dm into letting me use a giant lizard as a steed for the climb speed, which would help it stay with the party and help me reach enemies higher up.  it would also fit with the chatacter's drow connections.  sadly, there's no explicit riding lizard in 5e, and the regular giant lizard stat block you're supposed to use instead is a pretty questionable mount what with only 30' speed.
> 
> command: approach (or my preference command: fall) is good, but it burns an action, burns a limited spell slot, requires a failed wisdom save, rewuires a shared language, and only buys you one turn before a flying or climbing enemy can be back out of reach.  certainly a strong option to consider though, especially now that i can up cast it to level 2.  one im embarrased to say i hadn't thought of in this context, so thank you for pointing it out.


I was just doing a bit of reading on the Find Steed Spell.  It does say to check with your DM on other summoning options.  For me it's a signature spell, so in the context of DotMM I'd definitely be providing something that would work for the player, as the entire campaign is underground.  Agreed, the Giant Lizard CR 1/4 is a little disappointing, but it still has the same HP as a warhorse, darkvision, a climbing speed, and can dash 60.  Also, by 9th level if the character was using a 3rd level slot, I'd be opening it up to CR1 mounts with climbing or swimming speeds.  That would provide a good progression to Find Greater Steed at 13th which gives CR 2 and flying.

Yeah, Command has it's limitations and I agree with most of your criticisms, but in the context of the 2 encounters you described the 'only one turn' doesn't really seem like a big deal.  The creature(s) spend their next turn getting close to you, then you and your buddies smack the heck out of them.  If they survive (both the Flameskull and the Wizard are glass cannons so probably won't) they start their next turn right beside you and your buddies, including your Steed if you have one.  At that point they either spend their action disengaging or take another beating.  I suppose the Wizard might have Misty Step, but at least they're only using a cantrip at that point, rather than hammering the party with another leveled spell.

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