# Forum > Comics > The Order of the Stick > Analysis Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

## Kurald Galain

Welcome to the latest incarnation of the Class and Level Geekery thread! Here, we are discussing what the possible stats are for each of the six OOTS members. Below is an estimate of the characters' stats; this was first kept by Runolfr, Wrecan, Chrismith, and RMS Oceanic. I will update these posts as the discussion continues and as subsequent strips reveal more information about OOTS and the other characters.

The aim of this thread is that we give D&D statistics for the characters in the comic based on the events and statements made in the comic, plus statements by The Giant in the forum and his books. For this purpose, we assume that the comic strictly follows the 3.5E D&D rules. We are aware that The Giant has stated that he doesn't always follow the rules, because his goal is to write a story and not to write session reports from a D&D campaign. Nevertheless, in this thread we assume the rules are being followed anyway, and see what stats, feats, and skills could explain what happens. Essentially, that means we're taking the rules side of the comic more seriously than its author does; if you like, you can assume a little footnote on every factoid of this thread that says "* or The Giant used a houserule". Why? Well, because it's Geekery. If Star Trek fans can do it, then so can we  :Small Wink: 

*Frequently Asked Questions*
*Spoiler*
Show


_Q: Does The Giant check this thread?_
Yes, but only really for spell lists.

_Q: Which source books are used in the comic?_
Player's Handbook 1 and Dungeon Master's Guide 1Book of Vile Darkness (certain monsters; Boost Spell Resistance feat)Complete Adventurer (ninjas)Complete Arcane (warlocks; Tsukiko's and Zz'dtri's spells)Complete Warrior (hexblade)Dungeonscape (Thog; the acid-breathing shark; note that The Giant co-wrote this book)Expanded Psionics Handbook (blue; mindblade)Fiend Folio (certain monsters)Frostburn (Frostbite spell)Magic of Incarnum (mentioned by Redcloak's lackey)Monster Manual (mentioned by Celia and Vaarsuvius)Monster Manual 2 (certain monsters)Oriental Adventures (other samurai class, and mentioned by Xykon)Races of the Dragon (winged kobold)Spell Compendium (numerous spells that aren't from the PHB1)uncertain: Epic Level Handbook (a feat and spell from this book are mentioned, but most epic characters or spells in the comic don't follow the rules from this book)

_Q: In which comic do the characters demonstrate having leveled?_
*Level*
 :Roy: 
 :Belkar: 
 :Durkon: 
 :Elan: 
 :Haley: 
 :Vaarsuvius: 

9
12
12
12
12
12
12

10
124
125
124
124
124
124

11
???
???
201
???
???
186

12
251
249
???
382
477
220

13
???, 665
???
556, 1162
392
511
397

14
485, 862
???
859
647
???
627

15
 -
860
864
860
648
716

16
 -
 -
 -
 -
990
935



_Q: Which characters are included in this thread?_
(1) All named members of the Order, Team Evil, the Linear Guild, the Order of the Scribble, and the Vector Legion.
(2) Any frequently occurring character, as noted in the Character Appearances thread. Note that this includes Samantha: it was easier to be a common character back when the comic was shorter. We don't unlist characters just because they've died.
(3) Family members of the main characters, as long as we have something to write about them.
This means that Daigo and Bandana would be next in line, but we don't have a lot of material on either character.

_Q: Which material is covered by this thread?_
All comics on the web and in print (including SSDT, Gygax magazine, and the Kickstarter bonus stories), as well as anything written about the comic by The Giant. However, not included are any one-panel joke comics, such as used for incentives, t-shirts, or the fundraiser.
Note that even though the characters have stated they aren't sure whether this is the same continuity, certain items and abilities have been shown to carry over. We're listing all of it here for the sake of convenience, but any material from (e.g.) SSDT is clearly marked as such so that people can distinguish it from the main online comics.

_Q: I've heard there was a fight over some topic years ago, and now we're not allowed to discuss it any more. Is that the case?_
No; this thread does not have a banned topic list. Of course, the forum as a whole has one; please see the board rules for details.

_Q: Is a character's statement about another character considered evidence?_
Yes. We assume that when a character says something about another character's (or their own) ability scores, build, feats, and so forth, they are speaking the truth, except where this contradicts with other evidence or is clearly not possible within the rules.

_Q: If a character makes a special attack like grappling, and the victim does not make an attack of opportunity, can that be evidence of a feat like Improved Grapple?_
Yes, assuming the victim is armed, and otherwise capable of making AOOs. It is clear that the rules for attacks of opportunity are used in the comic, and there is no reason to assume that grappling/tripping/sundering is an exception.

_Q: If somebody doesn't say the name of a spell while casting it, does that mean he has the Silent Spell feat?_
Not necessarily. We know that Vaarsuvius doesn't have that feat, and yet V still occasionally casts spells while talking about something else.

_Q: What does "Core" mean?_
The three "Core" books in 3E D&D are the Player's Handbook 1 (PHB), Dungeon Master's Guide 1 (DMG), and Monster Manual 1 (MM). This is an official term defined by WOTC, who put the word "Core" in big letters on the cover of these three books. No other books are Core, and there is no such thing as "partially Core", "almost Core", or "semi-Core" - every book is either Core or non-Core. Note that both the OOTS comic and this thread contain numerous non-Core elements.

_Q: Does The Giant use house rules?_
Probably. But for the purpose of this thread, we assume that the comic doesn't, except where The Giant has explicitly said so, or where some event is clearly not possible by the rules. That is, we try to explain events in the comic within the rules as much as possible, and that means not leaving factoids out of this thread just because The Giant might not have followed the rules there.

_Q: A character undertook this heinous/awesome/dutiful/impulsive/meh action. Does that mean they are now evil/good/lawful/chaotic/neutral?_
No. As seen in a thousand forum threads, people have different ideas about alignment, and what defines and changes them. The alignments posted here are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their alignment, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which has an alignment restriction. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's action changes their alignment, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers.

_Q: A character undertook this brilliant/moronic/insightful/ignorant/inspiring/repulsive action. Does that mean they now have a high/low intelligence/wisdom/charisma score?_
No. Similar to the previous question, people have different ideas about what the mental ability scores represent and how much they influence a character's personality. The ability scores posted here are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their scores, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which requires a minimum ability score. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's personality changes their ability scores, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers either.

_Q: How does Xykon cast Maximized Energy Drain in comic 652?_
We don't know for sure. The most popular theories involve the feat Sudden Maximize, the feat Improved Spell Capacity, or a Rod of Metamagic. Each theory has its pros and cons. Note that comics 429, 442, and 1041 have implications for Xykon's level, and that 653 requires the Metamagic Specialist alternate class feature, regardless of his level.

_Q: What magic item makes Xykon immune to fire damage in comic 653?_
We don't know for sure; there are multiple items within RAW that make their user immune to fire, available from level 14. Note that Xykon doesn't specify whether it's an amulet, ring, belt, or other kind of item.

----------


## Kurald Galain

* Roy Greenhilt*
Lawful Good, Human male Fighter 14+ (forum).
Str 29 (same as a frost giant).
Dex 13+ (required for Improved Grapple).
Con 12+ (151+ hit points).
Int 14-17 (very good, less than Vaarsuvius, forum).
Wis 14+ (very good, forum).
Cha 12+ (decent, forum; less than Elan).
*Age:* 29.
*Feats:* Cleave (prerequisite for Great Cleave), Combat Expertise (prerequisite for Improved Disarm), Great Cleave, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Least Legacy, Lesser Legacy, Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Run, Spellsplinter Maneuver, Weapon Focus (prerequisite for Weapon Specialization), Weapon Specialization: greatsword.
*Skills:* Bluff 0, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering 2+, Knowledge: Geography, Knowledge: Planes, Listen low, Profession: Baseball Player (BRITF), Profession: Goatherd, Ride 1, Sense Motive 0 (OOPC), Spellcraft, Spot low.
*Items:* Magical heavy armor, Bag of Tricks, club, newspaper, heirloom +5 Starmetal Greatsword of Legacy, formal suit, shillelagh oil, potion of delay poison, Ring of Protection (WXP), Manual of Gainful Exercise (SSDT), non-magical boots, bedroll, list of Xykon's spells, feats and magic items, Belt of Giant Strength, book, sextant, runestone, Wrecan's book, scarf, potions of Cure Serious, Remove Paralysis, Magical Vestment.

* Belkar Bitterleaf* aka Ali S. Fakenamington (KS:US), aka the Belkster, aka Death's Li'l Helper
Chaotic Evil, Halfling male Ranger 14 / Barbarian 1 (forum, deafened by Holy Word).
Str 14-17 (jump exceeds movement, forum, and carrying capacity in SSDT).
Dex 13+ (required for Spring Attack).
Int <10 (OOPC).
Wis 9 (ability score penalty, and can use a third-level scroll when buffed).
Cha <10 (without any charisma).
*Age:* 28+ (ranger for three years, over a year ago).
*Feats:* Endurance, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting (all ranger bonus feats); Bounding Assault, Craft Disturbing Mental Image, Dodge (prerequisite for Spring Attack), Improved Sunder, Mobility (prerequisite for Spring Attack), Power Attack (prerequisite for Improved Sunder), Spring Attack; no feats related to special attacks (SSDT).
*Skills:* Balance 5+, Climb, Craft: Alchemy, Craft: Trapmaking, Handle Animal 0 (NCPB), Hide, Jump, Move Silently 2+, Profession: gourmet chef 4, Sense Motive 0, Speak Language: Halfling (racial), Spellcraft 4+, Spot 0, Survival 0, Tumble, Use Magic Device (SSDT).
*Abilities:* Halfling racial abilities, ranger and barbarian class abilities, animal companion: Mr. Scruffy, favored enemy: human (forum) and undead, scent.
*Items:* Unholy symbol, red chalk, cloak, Ring of Jumping +20, stilts, Sapphire guard disguise, Ring of Protection (WXP), quill, string, chef hat, Mama Bitterleaf's secret ingredient, clothespin, bedroll, +4 and +2 daggers (forum), mallet and spike (DSTP), mimic (SSDT), wand of dispel clothing (SSDT), 18 pounds of salt (GYG), book: Dune, bucket and spade, +5 Dagger of Collision, +3 Vest of Resistance, Clasp of Protection from Evil, Feather Fall item, spatula, stakes, track-covering powder, fire-starting tools.

 *Mr. Scruffy*
True Neutral (forum), Cat male, animal companion.
Str 6 (animal companion).
Dex 18 (animal companion).
Con 10 (racial).
Int 2 (racial).
Wis 12 (racial).
Cha 7 (racial).
*Age*: 7 (WXP).
*Feats*: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
*Skills*: Balance +10, Climb +6, Hide +16, Jump +10, Listen +3, Move Silently +8, Spot +3 (all racial skills).
*Abilities*: Racial abilities; animal companion abilities; 3 tricks, including attack and come.
*Items*: String, gear and wind-up key (UD),  potion of Greater Magic Fang.

* Durkon Allotrope Thundershield*
Lawful Good, Dwarf male Cleric of Thor 13 (required to cast Regenerate).
Str 16-21 (can carry Vaarsuvius, can't carry Roy, before getting his belt).
Dex <10 (dex penalty, SSDT).
Con ~12 (racial).
Wis 22-23 (forum).
Cha <10 (low modifier, see also DCF).
*Age:* 55+.
*Feats:* Extend Spell or Sudden Extend, Extra Turning, Leadership (UD), Martial Weapon Proficiency: Warhammer.
*Skills:* Concentration 7+ (forum), Knowledge: Dungeoneering, Knowledge: Religion not maxed, Listen 0 (OOPC), Ride 0, Speak Language: Dwarven (racial) and Giant (SSDT), Spellcraft, Spot 0.
*Abilities:* Dwarf racial abilities, Turn Undead, Good domain (required to cast Holy Smite), 
*Items:* Candles, bedroll, deck of cards, holy symbol, Amulet of Natural Armor, Ring of Protection (WXP), parcheesi board, spyglass, religious vestments, scroll of Sending,  belt pouch, Bleedingham papers, flask of liquor, Macebook, 5,000+ gp of diamond dust (Greg used 5000 for Symbol of Death), robe, Hammer of Thunderbolts, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Belt of Giant Strength, plate armor, shield.
*Spells:* Standard cleric list, domain spells, plus Bless Beer (WXP), Call Lightning (DCF), Cat's Grace, Control Winds, Cure Itchy Wounds,  Heat Blisters of Eternal Pain, Heathen Smiting, Mass Death Ward with backdoor, Thor's Lightning, and Tumor, unspecified clock spell.

* Elan* 
Chaotic Good, Human male Bard 14+ (required to retrain to Cure Critical Wounds) / Dashing Swordsman 1+.
Str 10-11 (KS:H&J, and the same as Nale, forum).
Dex 13-17 (required for Dodge, and to get a four on Move Silently).
Con same as Nale.
Int 4-9 (too low to cast cantrips, but higher than Thog.
Wis <10 (not even a smidgen).
Cha 22+ (required for 5th level spells at level 13, +2 from belt).
*Age:* 22 (same as Nale, who is five years older than Julia, who is 17).
*Feats:* Dodge, Mobility (both prerequisites for Spring Attack), Spring Attack, Still Spell.
*Skills:* Bluff 0, Concentration 0, Craft: Shiv 0, Diplomacy, Hide, Listen (higher than Sir Francois, OOPC), Move Silently <3, Perform: riddles 2+ (BRITF), Perform: sing 12+ (required for Inspire Greatness), Perform: string instruments 15+ (required for Song of Freedom), Perform: kazoo 3+, Profession: Chef, Ride 2+, Spot 0, Spellcraft 2+, Tumble.
*Abilities:* Bard class abilities, charismatic strike, dramatic instincts, glass damage immunity.
*Items:* Bedroll, Banjo, coffee maker, espresto box, ceremonial meat costume (OOPC), ritalin (OOPC), dice, Boots of Elvenkind, kazoo, jam, lantern, pingpong bat, roller skate, squirrel, yoyo, Ring of Protection (WXP), dashing outfit, toothbrush, Lutey the Lute-tastical Lute, evil sword (SSDT), castanets and sombrero (SSDT), equipment lists (GYG), Belt of Charisma +2, treasure chest, drawing, The Stick the Order was named after, [url=https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html]sash outfit[/url[, letter, Chaos Sabre, Wand of Cure Moderate Wounds, Armand Vestinghole; no armor worn.
*Spells:* Animate Rope, Cure Critical Wounds, Disguise Self, Ghost Sound, Greater Dispel Magic, Heroism, Lesser Confusion, Major Image, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mending, Neutralize Poison, Prestidigitation, Silent Image, Summon Plot Exposition; no Identify, nor Break Enchantment.

* Haley Starshine* aka Mistress Nightingale, aka The Red Blur (OOPC), aka Dark Mistress Shadowgale
Chaotic Good, Human female Rogue 16 (based on attacks per round and leveled since then).
Str 15-19 (high enough to carry Belkar (forum), but can't carry Roy).
Dex 20-21 (modifier of +5, forum).
Con 9+ (higher than Vaarsuvius).
Int 12+ (received bonus languages).
Cha 12-19 (with any charisma; and with maxed out Bluff, for Hide to be her best skill, her cha mod has to be less than her dex mod).
*Age:* About 25 (forum; was 24 here, and that was over a year ago).
*Feats:* Dodge (SSDT), Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (prerequisite for IPS), Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, Rapid Shot.
*Skills:* Appraise, Bluff 18+ (maxed out), Climb, Disable Device, Forgery (OOPC), Hide 18+ (best skill), Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Planes, Knowledge: Religion low (forum), Open Lock 15 (forum), Ride 0, Search 10+ not maxed, Sense Motive 2+, Spellcraft 9+, Spot 0, Tumble, Use Magic Device 7+, Use Rope 8.
*Abilities:* Rogue class abilities; three special rogue abilities, two spent on a feat (based on feat count for her level).
*Items:* Two gemstones, 8 Bags of Holding, towel,  hair dryer, Ring of Protection (WXP), rope,  +5 Air Freshener of Pineness, a lot of clothes, bedroll, +5 Icy Burst Longbow, bag of copper pieces (SSDT), magic leather armor, dyed Boots of Speed (forum), trowel, metal detector, Bleedingham papers, 4+ quivers of green arrows including silver and cold iron, three potions (since Belkar took one), thief's tools, Z's wands, bounty paper, Wand of Obscuring Mist, Magic Missile, Fly, and four others, adamantine dagger, winter coat, Elan's coat, Quippie the dead osquip head.

 *Minrah Elle Shaleshoe*
Lawful good, Dwarf female, Fighter 1+ / Cleric 9+.
Str 15-19 (prerequisite for Knockdown, and can fail to pierce a vampire spawn's DR).
Con ~12 (racial).
Int 13+ (required for Combat Expertise).
Wis 16+ (based on spells per day).
Cha 6+ (can return as a ghost).
*Feats:* Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knockdown, Power Attack (to get through vampire DR after having all buffs dispelled), Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Bull Rush, Knockback.
*Skills:* Knowledge: Planes 0, Knowledge: Religion, Spellcraft.
*Abilities:* Dwarf racial abilities.
*Items:* Holy symbol, non-silvered warhammer (based on vampire spawn DR), armor, helmet.

* Vaarsuvius*
True Neutral (forum), High Elf (OOPC) genderqueer (BRITF) Wizard: Evoker (DCF) 16 (+1 caster level from Blackwing's ioun stone).
Str 5-9 (can carry Yukyuk, and strength penalty).
Dex <12 (no real attack bonus on rays, forum).
Con 8-12 (to have enough HP to survive the fight against Xykon; also, lacks a decent con, forum; and lower than Haley).
Int 24 (forum).
Wis 10-11 (moderate, forum).
Cha 6-9 (can return as a ghost, and without any charisma).
*Age:* 131+ (WXP).
*Feats:* Alertness, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Improved Counterspell, Maximize Spell (SSDT), Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat); no Silent Spell (forum), nor Still Spell.
*Skills:* Appraise +3 (from familiar), Concentration 12+, Craft: Alchemy, Decipher Script (SSDT), Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Dungeoneering, Knowledge: Engineering, Knowledge: Planes, Knowledge: Religion not high (forum), Ride 0, Spot 0, Search 0, Speak Language: Elven (racial), raven, not draconic (SSDT), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device 2+.
*Abilities:* Elf racial abilities, familiar: Blackwing, share spells with familiar, scry on familiar, barred schools: Conjuration and Necromancy (forum; also by elimination).
*Items:* Headband of Intellect +4 (required to cast four 6th level spells with a base int of 18 at level 11), doily, Ring of Wizardry III or IV, two small gemstones, many scrolls and spellbooks, Ring of Protection (WXP), Finding Plot Holes for Dummies, twelve more books, two potions (SSDT), apricot-scented face gel (SSDT), chalice (SSDT), jar of diamond dust, Bleedingham papers, defensive potions, Tarquin's whip.
*Spells:* Arcane Sight, Banishment, Bear's Endurance. Bull's Strength, Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand, Bugsby's Clenched Fist, Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit, Bugsby's Flicking Finger, Bugsby's Grasping Hand, Burning Hands, Chain Lightning, Charm Monster, Cone of Cold, Crushing Despair, Detect Magic, Dimensional Anchor, Dimensional Lock, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Distant Inferno (OOPC), Dominate Person, Expeditious Retreat, Explosive Runes, Feather Fall, Fireball, Fire Trap, Flamefinger (OOPC), Forcecage, Fly, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility, Gust of Wind, Haste, Heroism, Hold Monster (SSDT), Hold Person, Hold Portal, Identify, Invisibility, discount Invisibility Sphere, Light, Lightning Bolt, Locate Creature, Locate Object, Magic Missile, Mass Bear's Endurance, Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Enlarge Person, Mass Suggestion, Mind Blank, Overland Flight usable on others, Owl's Wisdom, Passwall, Polymorph,  Power Word Blind, Power Word Stun, Prestidigitation, Prismatic Spray, Protection from Arrows, Ray of Frost, Resilient Sphere, Scorching Ray, See Invisibility, Sending, Shadow Conjuration (to cast Evan's Tentacles, forum), Silent Image a.k.a. Phantasmal Force, Sleep, Stinking Cloud (DCF), Stoneskin, Stone to Flesh, Suggestion, Summon Plot Hole (Supercollider Mash-Up), Telepathic Bond, True Seeing, Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying, Vaarsuvius' Greater Animal Messenger, Vampiric Touch, Veil, Wall of Fire, Wall of Force, unspecified polymorph spell, unspecified sonic spell.

 *Blackwing* (Common name)
Raven male, familiar.
Str 1 (racial).
Dex 15 (racial).
Con 10 (racial).
Int 13 (familiar).
Wis 14 (racial).
Cha 6 (racial).
*Feats:* Alertness, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
*Skills:* Listen +5, Spot +7 (racial skills), can use Vaarsuvius's skill ranks (familiar).
*Abilities:* Racial abilities; familiar abilities.
*Items:* Bauble, sombrero, fake beard and mustache, wand, bracelet with Orange Prism Ioun Stone, sunglasses.

----------


## Kurald Galain

*Team Evil*

 *Xykon*, pseudonym (SOD)
Chaotic (forum) Evil, Human male lich, Sorcerer 21+ (see 429, 442, and 1041), metamagic specialist
Str 15+ (forum).
Con n/a (undead).
Int ~15 (no evidence, age and lichdom).
Wis ~15 (no evidence, age and lichdom).
Cha 28+ (casts seven 9th level spells in one combat, SOD).
_Age:_ 111+ (WXP).
_Feats:_ Maximize Spell or Sudden Maximize, Still Spell or Sudden Still, Epic Spellcasting, unspecified craft feat, Dodge.
_Skills:_ Bluff, Concentration (required to cast while grappled), Spellcraft 24+, Knowledge: Arcana 24+ (required for Epic Spellcasting), Reverse Psychology 2+, Speak Language: Draconic (NCPB); +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
_Abilities:_ Fear aura, paralyzing touch, turn resistance, damage reduction (SOD), immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks (all lich abilities).
_Items:_ Soul gem (SOD), Ring of Positive Plane Protection (SOD), Serini's diary, Widescreen crystal ball, Teevo, crown that radiates evil, Dorukan's headband, unspecified item that gives fire immunity, Ring of Protection that gives deflection bonus, unspecified item that boosts Spellcraft, bunch of scrolls, Boots of Freedom of Movement.
_Spells:_ Animate Dead, Animate Dead Animal (SOD), Blackfire, Burning Hands, Cloister, Cloudkill, Contingency, Energy Drain, Epic Mage Armor, Finger of Death, Fireball, Ghostform, Greater Invisibility, Greater Shatter, Greater Teleport, Invisibility (SOD), Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Mass Hold Person, Meteor Swarm, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Overland Flight, Ray of Frost, Soul Bind (SOD), Stoneskin, Superb Dispelling, Symbol of Insanity, Symbol of Pain, Telekinesis, Teleport, Vampiric Touch, Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage, spells for mind control (SOD), summoning, architecture, wall breaking, planar travel, and rock drawing.

*Oona*
Bugbear female, racial HD 3 / unknown class 3+ (required for Beast Heart) / Beast Heart Adept 9+ (required for yrthak companion).
Str ~14 (no evidence, racial).
Dex 15+ (required for Two-Weapon Fighting).
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
_Feats_: Animal Affinity (required for Beast Heart), Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Pounce.
_Skills_: Handle Animal 8, Knowledge: Arcana 4, Knowledge: Dungeoneering 4 (all required for Beast Heart Adept), Survival.
_Abilities:_ Bugbear racial abilities, Beast Heart Adept class abilities, monstrous companions: Lancer and Greyview
_Items_: Mask of Cold Resistance, sack of monster parts, Two maces, dagger.

 *Redcloak*, pseudonym (SOD)
Lawful Evil (SOD), Goblin male, Cleric (SOD) 17+ (required to cast 9th level spells).
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 20+ (based on saving throw difficulty class).
Cha 12+ (required to use Rebuke Undead four times per day).
_Age:_ 55+ (WXP), does not age physically (SOD).
_Feats:_ Craft Wondrous Item (Xykon's phylactery in SOD), Extend Spell.
_Skills:_ Diplomacy (SOD), Knowledge: Chemistry, Knowledge: Nature (SOD), Speak Language: Goblin (racial), Spellcraft; no Draconic (NCPB).
_Abilities:_ Goblin racial abilities, Rebuke Undead, Command Undead, Destruction domain (required to cast Disintegrate) and Law domain (required to cast Hold Monster, SOD).
_Items:_ Black armor (SOD), The Crimson Mantle, backup unholy symbol, Book of Vile Darkness, Fiend Folio, Monster Manual II, eye patch, spyglass, 8th level scroll (WXP), Xykon's Phylactery, Arcane half of the Snarl Ritual, Ring of protection from level drain, boots.
_Spells:_ Standard cleric list and domain spells, plus Unseal, Greater Obscure Object, Superior Resistance, Hardening.

 *Tsukiko* (deceased) 
Neutral Evil (forum), Human female, Wizard: Necromancer (forum) 3+ / Cleric 3+ (required for Mystic Theurge) / Mystic Theurge 6+, and two more levels of Wizard or Mystic Theurge (required to cast Create Undead). 
Int 16+ (required to cast Create Undead as a wizard).
Wis 15+ (required to cast Flame Strike as a cleric).
_Feats:_ Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Quicken Spell.
_Skills:_ Knowledge: Arcana 6+, Knowledge: Religion 6+ (required for Mystic Theurge).
_Abilities:_ Rebuke Undead, barred school (forum): Abjuration (by elimination).
_Items:_ Spellbook (wizard feature), item that boosts caster level (to teleport six wights), unholy symbol (required to cast Flame Strike), Xykon plushie, Xykon portrait, various books and scrolls, quill.
_Spells:_ Standard cleric list, plus wizard spells Cold Orb, Create Undead, Dominate Person, Electric Orb, Fire Orb, Fireball, Fly, Invisibility, Lesser Acid Orb, Lightning Bolt, Mind Fog, Shout, Teleport, Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell (forum).

 :Mitd:  *Monster In The Darkness*
Please see this thread for details.



*The Linear Guild*

 :Nale:  *Nale* (deceased)
Non-lawful Evil (forum), Human male, Fighter / Rogue 2+ (required for Evasion) / Sorcerer 8+ (required to cast Dimension Door); total level 15 (deafened by Holy Word).
Str 10-11 (same as Elan, forum).
Dex 13-17 (same as Elan).
Con same as Elan.
Int 13+ (required for Combat Expertise).
Cha 15+ (required to cast Sending).
_Age:_ 22 (same as Elan).
_Feats:_ Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm.
_Skills:_ Bluff.
_Items:_ Longsword, business cards, wand of Enervation, Elixirs of Negative Energy Protection.
_Spells:_ Charm Person, Dimension Door, Expeditious Retreat, Invisibility, Prestidigitation, Suggestion.

 *Hilgya Firehelm &  Kudzu*
Chaotic (required for Chaos domain) Evil (WXP), Dwarf female, Cleric of Loki 14+ (based on spells cast per day).
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 24+ (based on spells cast per day).
Cha 6+ (can use Turn Undead).
_Skills:_ Speak Language: Dwarven (racial).
_Feats:_ Empower Spell.
_Abilities:_ Dwarf racial abilities, Chaos domain, Fire domain, Turn Undead (despite evil alignment).
_Items:_ Horned helmet, armor, shield, holy symbol (required to use rebuke ability), morningstar, carrying sling, anarchic water, wand of Protection from Law, plate armor.

 *Leeky Windstaff*
Neutral Evil, Gnome male, Druid 13+ (required to cast Fire Storm).
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 17+ (required to cast Fire Storm).
_Feats:_ Leadership.
_Abilities:_ Gnome racial abilities, druid class abilities, animal companion: hawk "Kitty" (deceased).

 *Pompey*
Neutral Evil, Half-Elf male, Wizard: Conjurer 5+ (required to cast Still Silent Animate Rope).
Int 14+ (required to cast four 2nd level spells per day).
_Age:_ 44+.
_Feats:_ Scribe scroll (wizard bonus feat), Silent Spell, Still Spell.
_Skills:_ Knowledge: Arcana.
_Abilities:_ Half-elf racial abilities, barred schools: evocation and enchantment.
_Items:_ Spellbook (wizard feature).
_Spells:_ Animate Rope, Summon Monster I, Summon Monster II, five unspecified touch-range buff spells.

 :Sabine:  *Sabine*
Evil, Succubus female, Racial hit dice 6 / Level adjustment 6 / Rogue (NCPB) 4+ (at least as high as her personal rival Haley).
Str 19+ (can carry Nale and Thog).
Dex ~13 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~13 (no evidence, racial).
Int 9+ (higher than Thog, lower than Nale, forum).
Wis ~14 (no evidence, racial).
Cha ~26 (no evidence, racial).
_Age:_ 2000+ (NCPB).
_Abilities:_ Flight, change shape, energy drain, charm monster, detect good, detect thoughts, ethereal jaunt, suggestion, greater teleport: self plus 50 pounds of objects, summon demon, damage reduction 10 / cold iron or good, darkvision, electricity and poison immunity, acid cold and fire resistance, spell resistance 18, telepathy, tongues; plane shift 1/day (all racial abilities), rogue class abilities, immune to fatigue.
_Items:_ Cellphone

 :Thog:  *Thog*
Non-lawful (required for rage) Evil, Half-Orc male, Fighter 2 / Barbarian 9+ (required to have 3 attacks a round).
Str 22+ (to break down an iron door while raging).
Con 16+ with Extend Rage feat, or 26+ without (based on rage rounds per day).
Int <8 (racial, dump stat).
Wis <10 (abysmal will save).
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
_Age:_ 17+ (WXP).
_Feats:_ Extend Rage (see above), Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack.
_Skills:_ Jump.
_Abilities:_ Dungeoncrasher (forum), half-orc racial abilities, barbarian class abilities.

 *Yikyik* (deceased)
Chaotic Evil (same as Belkar, DCF), Kobold male, Ranger (DCF).
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex 12+ (gets additional attack from Combat Reflexes).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
_Feats:_ Combat Reflexes, Track (ranger bonus feat).
_Skills:_ Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
_Abilities:_ Kobold racial abilities.
_Items:_ Dagger.

 *Yokyok* (deceased)
Kobold male.
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
_Skills:_ Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
_Abilities:_ Kobold racial abilities.
_Items:_ Rapier.

 *Yukyuk* (deceased)
Kobold male, Ranger 4+ (required for an animal companion) / Rogue. 
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
_Abilities:_ Ranger and rogue class abilities, animal companion: riding dog "Sir Scraggly".
_Feats:_ Endurance, Track (ranger bonus feats).
_Skills:_ Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
_Abilities:_ Kobold racial abilities.
_Items:_ Two Crossbows of Quick Loading.

 *Zz'dtri* (deceased)
Neutral Evil (forum), Drow male, Wizard: Transmuter (DCF) 15 (deafened by Holy Word).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Int 17+ (required to cast Plane Shift).
Cha ~12 (no evidence, racial).
_Feats:_ Lightning Reflexes, Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Silent Spell (forum), Boost Spell Resistance, unspecified feat that increases Spell Resistance, Empower Spell.
_Skills:_ Speak Language: Drow Sign Language.
_Abilities:_ Spell Resistance 28+ (racial, +4 from feats and an item); drow racial abilities; barred schools: Enchantment, Necromancy (by elimination).
_Items:_ Spellbook (wizard feature), unspecified item that boosts Spell Resistance.
_Spells:_ Baleful Polymorph, Break Enchantment: short version, Dimension Door, Disguise Self, Flesh to Stone, Fly: 3.0 version, Greater Dispel Magic, Gust of Wind, Locate Object, Magic Circle Against Evil, Phantasmal Killer, Planar Binding, Plane Shift, Protection from Energy, Scrying, Shield, Teleport, Vitriolic Sphere, Wall of Ice, unspecified lightning spell.

----------


## Kurald Galain

*The Sapphire Guard*

 *Hinjo*
Lawful Good, Human male, Paladin 11+ (based on attacks per round).
Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands).
_Age:_ 24+ (WXP).
_Skills:_ Diplomacy (GDGU), Swim 0 (GDGU).
_Abilities:_ Paladin class abilities, Summon Conscience, paladin mount: dire wolf "Argent".
_Items:_ Cold-iron katana, silvered katana; magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP).

 *Lien*
Lawful Good, Human female, Paladin 12+ (higher level than Hinjo).
Str 13+ (required for Cleave).
Int 10+ (good, not dumb).
Wis 11+ (required to cast spells).
Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands).
_Age:_ 23+ (younger than Hinjo, GDGU).
_Feats:_ Cleave, Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Weapon Focus: Spear.
_Abilities:_ Paladin class abilities, paladin mount: large shark "Razor".
_Items:_ Spear; magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP); Ring of Waterbreathing, crossbow.

 :Miko:  *Miko Miyazaki* (deceased)
Lawful Good, Human female, Monk 2+ / Fallen Paladin 10-14 (three main-hand attacks per round, higher level than Hinjo, and three smites per day, forum).
Str 13+ (required for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana).
Dex 17+ (required for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting).
Wis 11+ (required to cast Cure Light Wounds in the Miko fight).
Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands).
_Age:_ 28+ (WXP).
_Feats:_ Cleave, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (two off-hand attacks per round), Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Stunning Fist, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting (prerequisite for ITWF).
_Skills:_ Knowledge: the Planes, Knowledge: What The Hell She's Talking About 0, Spellcraft 0, Survival 1.
_Abilities:_ Monk class abilities, unavailable paladin mount: horse "Windstriker".
_Items:_ Magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP); katana, wakizashi.

 *O-Chul*
Lawful Good, Human male, Fighter 8+ / Paladin 3-4 (has Aura of Courage but no mount), total level 12+ (higher than Hinjo).
Str 11+ (can carry Vaarsuvius).
Con ~25 (WXP).
Cha <10 (dump stat).
_Age:_ 50+ (in GDGU, Hinjo is 15-16 and O-Chul is 42).
_Feats:_ Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana (GDGU).
_Skills:_ Bluff 0, Diplomacy 2+ (forum), Spellcraft, Swim.
_Items:_ Protective cloak, go set, spyglass.

 *Shojo* (deceased)
Chaotic Good, Human male, Aristocrat 14.
Str / Dex / Con ~4 (no evidence, age).
Int / Wis / Cha ~13 (no evidence, age).
_Age:_ 72+ (WXP).
_Feats:_ Improved Paranoia.
_Skills:_ Bluff, Perform (puppetry).



*The Vector Legion*

 *Tarquin*
Lawful Evil, Human male Villain (DSTP), level 16+ (unaffected by Holy Word).
Str 16+ (can carry Nale).
Dex, Con ~9 (no evidence, age).
Int, Wis ~11 (no evidence, age).
Cha 16+ (higher than Nale, BRITF).
_Age:_ 51+ (adventuring for 35 years).
_Feats:_ Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist.
_Skills:_ Speak Language: Drow Sign Language, Ride, Spellcraft, Spot.
_Abilities:_ Evasion, Counter Charge, Soaring Throw.
_Items:_ helmet, two Rings of Regeneration, Ring of True Seeing, Glamered plate armor, mask that says "Nope" on it, Extra Strength Keoghtum Ointment.

 *Soul Muncher*
Intelligent (BRITF) ki focus axe.

 *Jacinda*
Evil (forum), Catfolk female.
_Items:_ Dagger.

 *Kilkil*
Lawful Neutral (forum), Winged Kobold male, level 6-10 (paralyzed by Holy Word).
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
_Items:_ Glasses.
_Skills:_ Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
_Abilities:_ Kobold racial abilities, Flight.

 *Laurin Shattersmith*
Evil (forum), Human female, Psion 15+ (required to craft a +5 collision weapon).
Str, Dex, Con ~7 (no evidence, age).
Int 18+ (required to manifest Matter Manipulation).
Wis, Cha ~12 (no evidence, age).
_Age:_ 58+ (forum).
_Feats:_ Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, Expanded Knowledge x2 (can manifest Clairvoyant Sense, Control Body, and Mind Probe).
_Items:_ Headband, two Ioun Stones.
_Powers:_ Body Adjustment, Clairvoyant Sense, Control Body, Dimension Door, Disintegrate, Dispel Psionics, Energy Adaptation, Matter Manipulation, Mental Disruption, Mind Probe, Telekinetic Force, Wormhole, unspecified attack power.

 *Malack* (deceased), pseudonym
Lawful Evil (forum), Lizardfolk male vampire, Cleric of Nergal 12 (required for Craft Staff, but no higher spells, forum).
Str ~18 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~14 (no evidence, racial).
Con n/a (undead).
Int ~13 (no evidence, racial, age).
Wis 20+ (from spells per day, forum).
Cha ~17 (no evidence, racial, age).
_Age:_ 200+.
_Feats:_ Craft Staff, Quicken Spell.
_Skills:_ Speak Language: Draconic (racial), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.
_Abilities:_ Vampire abilities, Death and Destruction domains (forum).
_Items:_ Holy Symbol.
_Spells:_ Standard cleric list and domain spells, plus Protection from Daylight.

 *Miron Shewdanker*
Evil (forum), Human male, Wizard 15+ or Sorcerer 16+ (required to cast Horrid Wilting).
Str, Dex ~9 (no evidence, age).
Con 6+ (forum).
Wis ~11 (no evidence, age).
Int or Cha 18+ (required to cast Horrid Wilting, depending on his class).
_Age:_ 38+ (forum).
_Spells:_ Baleful Polymorph, Contingency, Greater Dispel Magic, Horrid Wilting, Teleport, unspecified defensive spell.

 *???*
We don't seem to know anything about the sixth member of the Vector Legion.

----------


## Kurald Galain

*The Order of the Scribble*

 *Soon Kim* (deceased)
Lawful Good, Human male Sacred Watcher, Paladin 21+ (Low Epic).
Str 13+ (required for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana).
Con n/a (Deathless).
Cha ~17 (old age, Sacred Watcher).
_Abilities:_ Flight, Paladin class  abilities, Sacred Watcher abilities, Deathless abilities.
_Feats:_ Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana.
_Items:_ Enchanted Armor, Katana.

 *Dorukan* (deceased and soulbound, SOD)
Neutral Good (forum), Human male, Wizard 21+.
Str/Dex/Con ~4 (no evidence, age).
Int 19+ (required to cast Gate, SOD).
_Feats:_ Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Craft Wondrous Item, Epic Spellcasting.
_Skills:_ Knowledge: Arcana 24+, Spellcraft 24+ (both required for Epic Spellcasting).
_Spells:_ Arcane Half of the Mystic Gate ritual, Cloister, Gate (SOD), Meteor Swarm (SOD), Monster Ward, Prismatic Spray (SOD), Pure Heart Ward, Seal Rift, Scrying (SOD), Teleport (SOD), unspecified fire spell (SOD), unspecified summoning spell.

 *Girard Draketooth* (deceased)
Chaotic Neutral (forum), Black dragon-blooded human male, Ranger 2 / Sorcerer 19+ (low epic, forum).
Cha 19+ (required to cast Microcosm).
_Feats:_ Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, no Epic Spellcasting (forum).
_Spells:_ Microcosm, Recorded Message Trap, unspecified illusion spell.

 *Kraagor* (deceased)
Non-lawful, Dwarf male, Barbarian.
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
_Skills_: Speak Language: Dwarven (racial).
_Items_: Axe.

 *Lirian* (deceased and soulbound, SOD)
Neutral Good (forum), Elf female, Druid 21+ (Low Epic, forum).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 19+ (required to cast Shapechange, SOD).
_Skills:_ Speak Language: Druidic (class) and Elven (racial).
_Spells:_ Standard druid list, plus Divine Half of the Mystic Gate ritual, Guardian Virus (SOD).

 *Serini Toormuck*
Halfling female, Rogue 21+ (Low Epic).
Str ~5 (no evidence, racial, age).
Dex ~9 (no evidence, racial, age).
Con ~7 (no evidence, age).
Int/Wis/Cha ~12 (no evidence, age).
_Abilities:_ Regeneration from troll blood.
_Feats:_ Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot.
_Skills:_ Bluff, Climb, Craft: Alchemy, Use Magic Device.
_Items_: Shortbow, staff, Instant Magic Pot, crossbow, wand of Dimension Door, goggles, pouch, blowgun with poison darts.



*Family and other characters*

 *Celia*
Lawful Good (DSTP), Sylph female, 6+ HD (required to cast Lightning Bolt).
Str 14+ (required to pick up Roy).
Cha 16+ (required to cast four 3rd level spells in a day).
_Age:_ 22+ (WXP).
_Abilities:_ Flight, cast sorcerer spells, shoot lightning out of her fingers (all racial abilities).
_Skills:_ Knowledge Nature, Profession: Lawyer, Spellcraft 10+.
_Items:_ Cell phone, feeblemind causing blue dress, black eyeliner pencil, bedroll.
_Spells:_ Alter Self, Charm Person, Lightning Bolt, Fog Cloud or Obscuring Mist, no necromancy spells.

 *Chuck*
Nonlawful, Human male Rogue 3+/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 1
Int 12+ (required to cast 2nd level spells)
_Feats:_ Scribe scroll (bonus wizard)
_Skills:_ Decipher Script 7+, Disable Device 7+, Escape Artist 7+, Knowledge (arcana) 4+.
_Abilities:_ Sneak Attack +2d6 or more, other Rogue class abilities, Wizard class abilities, Arcane Trickster class abilities
_Items:_ Shortsword (the sword he uses looks shorter than the one used by another character).
_Spells:_ Mage Hand, Bull's Strength, Acid Arrow and Scorching Ray.

 *Eugene Greenhilt* (deceased, OOPC)
Lawful Good (SOD), Human male ghost, Wizard: Illusionist 11+ (required to cast Permanent Image).
Str/Dex ~4 (no evidence, age).
Con n/a (undead).
Int 16+ (required to cast Permanent Image).
Wis ~13 (no evidence, age).
Cha 10+ (6 required to become a ghost, +4 bonus from ghost template).
_Age:_ 81+ (WXP).
_Feats:_ Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat).
_Items:_ Spellbook (wizard feature).
_Spells:_ Birth Control Spell (SOD), Conjure Chair (OOPC), Detect Scrying, Fly (SOD), Invisibility Sphere, Minor Image (OOPC), Permanent Image, Summon Boot, Teleport (SOD), unspecified fire spell.

* Greg* (deceased)
Lawful Evil, Dwarf vampire male, Cleric of Hel 15 (required to cast Symbol of Death).
Str 20-25 (same as Durkon; +6 as vampire).
Dex <14 (same as Durkon; +4 as vampire).
Con n/a (undead).
Int ~12 (no evidence; +2 as vampire).
Wis 24-25 (same as Durkon; +2 as vampire).
Cha <14 (same as Durkon; +4 as vampire).
_Abilities:_ Dwarf racial abilities, vampire abilities.
_Spells:_ Standard cleric list, plus Accelerate Vampirization.

 *Gontor Hammerfalls* (deceased)
Evil, Dwarf vampire male, Cleric of Hel 13+ (required to cast Summon Monster VII).
Con n/a (undead).
Wis 19+ (required to cast Gate from a scroll).
_Skills:_ Decipher Script, Use Magic Device.
_Abilities:_ Dwarf racial abilities, vampire abilities.
_Items:_ Armor, belt, scrolls.

 *Ian Starshine*, aka Red
Chaotic Neutral (forum), Human male, Rogue.
Str, Con ~7 (no evidence, age)
Int, Wis, Cha ~12 (no evidence, age).
_Age:_ 60+.
_Skills:_ Bluff, Knowledge: Local, Move Silently, Not Dying, Open Lock.
_Abilities:_ Rogue class abilities.
_Items:_ Signed amnesty papers, Elan's plan to take down Tarquin, dagger.

 *Jenny*
Chaotic neutral, Human female Rogue 1+/Bard 3+/Sorcerer 1+
Cha 11+ (required to cast Hideous Laughter as a Bard. If she had cast as a Sorcerer, it would need to be 12+)
_Skills:_ Perform (?*) 6+ (required to use Inspire Competence)
_Abilities:_ Bard, rogue, and sorcerer class abilities.
_Items:_ Harp.
_Spells:_ Hideous Laughter.

 *Julia Greenhilt*
True Neutral, Human female, Wizard 3+.
Int 15+ (required to cast Sending).
_Age:_ 17.
_Feats:_ Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat).
_Skills:_ Spellcraft.
_Spells:_ Feather Fall, Improved Sending, Magic Missile, Mask Scent.

 *Logann Brightstone*
Dwarf male, Fighter 6+ (based on attacks per round).
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Int 13+ (required for Improved Disarm).
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
_Feats:_ Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm.
_Abilities:_ Dwarf racial abilities.
_Items:_ Armor, Dwarven Waraxe.

 *Qarr*
Lawful Evil, Imp male, Sorcerer 8-10 (required to cast Charm Monster, and to get only two Scorching Rays).
Dex ~17 (no evidence, racial).
Int 12+ (based on Zz'dtri's level).
Wis ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Cha 14+ (required to cast Charm Monster).
_Feats:_ Dodge, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
_Abilities:_ Flight, poison, detect good, detect magic, invisibility: self, suggestion, commune, alternate form, damage reduction 5/good or silver, darkvision, fast healing, poison immunity, fire resistance; greater teleport: self plus 50 pounds of objects, plane shift, summon devil (all racial abilities).
_Spells:_ Charm Monster, Extraplanar Phone Connection, Lesser Telepathic Bond, Lightning Bolt, Scorching Ray.

*Right-Eye* (pseudonym; deceased, SOD)
True Neutral, Goblin male, Rogue
Str ~2 (no evidence, racial, age)
Dex ~6 (no evidence, racial, age)
Con ~4 (no evidence, age)
Int 15+ (can speak common before aging; age)
Wis ~13 (no evidence, age)
Cha ~11 (no evidence, racial, age)
_Age_: 40+ (venerable)
_Feats_: Martial Weapon Proficiency: greataxe
_Skills_: Craft: carpentry, Diplomacy 0, Listen 2+
_Abilities_: Rogue class abilities.
_Items_: Eyepatch, greataxe, deck of cards, hooded cloak, Deathstrike Bracers, 3 credit cards, scroll of Regeneration.

 *Samantha* (deceased)
Evil (NCPB), Human female, Sorcerer 12 (required to cast exactly three 6th level spells in a day).
Cha 16-21 (required to cast Chain Lightning, but has no bonus spells at level 6). Also, her charisma is higher than Haley's.
_Age:_ 18.
_Feats:_ Maximize Spell, no Silent Spell, nor Still Spell.
_Spells:_ Chain Lightning, Fireball, Fly, Hold Person, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Protection From Arrows.

*Previous Threads:*
XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat
XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot
XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?
XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon
XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended.
XII - Even Nerds Call Us Nerds
XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
X: deals +1d6 thread damage
IX: the thread levels up again!
VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
VII (some [spoilers])
VI (some [spoilers])
V (some [spoilers])
IV (some [spoiler]s)
III (some [spoiler]s)
II
Class and Level Geekery

----------


## danielxcutter

Huh, wasn't Right-Eye's weapon for Sneak Attacking Xykon a positive energy dagger, not Deathstrike Bracers? Could be misremembering though.

----------


## gerald_of_sengir

> Huh, wasn't Right-Eye's weapon for Sneak Attacking Xykon a positive energy dagger, not Deathstrike Bracers? Could be misremembering though.


Yep, SoD page 101. positive energy infused dagger, scroll of regen. Page 104 a potion of.. Flight maybe?

----------


## Schroeswald

Deathstroke bracers are a different thing
*Spoiler: SOD*
Show

They are the only way weve found for Right-Eye to deal enough damage as a rogue to KO the Treant, iirc they solve that he cant critical hit plants. As far as we know he never lost those but by his death he dropped the dagger so it wasnt in his posession.

----------


## hamishspence

> Deathstroke bracers are a different thing


It's worth noting that:

*Spoiler*
Show

After slaying that treant, Right Eye was captured and imprisoned along with the Xykon and Redcloak. It's possible that they were confiscated before the imprisonment.

This might explain his use of the dagger - on a "I needed a _different_ way to sneak attack undead because I lost my _last_ way".


An _alternative_ answer for his claims about the dagger besides "replace the effect of the lost bracers" is - that he doesn't trust Redcloak any more, and has decided "_Just in case_ Redcloak tries to stop me without killing me, I'm telling him a lie about how I am able to sneak attack undead, so he uses the "destroy my weapon" method of stopping me, which won't work."

----------


## danielxcutter

Maybe Penetrating Strike ACF? That only lets you do half, so if you wanted to make sure you might still want a dagger like that

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Deathstroke bracers are a different thing


Personally, I find myself not needing bracers when doing the breaststroke or the death one, but different strokes for different folks.

----------


## Wildstag

It's been a while since I saw anyone post in this thread, but for now could we tentatively assume that Serini has found a way to replicate or mass-produce a Pixie's "Memory Loss" arrow poison, since this would explain away the amnesia-inducing nature of the caulron's contents?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> It's been a while since I saw anyone post in this thread, but for now could we tentatively assume that Serini has found a way to replicate or mass-produce a Pixie's "Memory Loss" arrow poison, since this would explain away the amnesia-inducing nature of the caulron's contents?


The pixie's memory arrow doesn't have the same effect as Serini's amnesia potion. The former erases all of the victim's memories, while the latter erases a varying amount of memory based on the dosage. It's possible that Serini's potion is derived from pixie arrows, but without any evidence to actually support that theory it's just speculation.

----------


## elros

I must have missed the discussion at the time, but what is the deal with Durkon's Cousin's Brother-in-Law's niece's fiance? Is he a soul-knife?

----------


## danielxcutter

Think he might be an incarnate. Wasnt there a similar dwarf in the recent A Monster For Every Season?

----------


## b_jonas

danielxcutter: discussion starts after not-Thad's first appearance.  Thread mentions the Soulknife and Incarnate classes, a class called Champion that the Giant created, and spells Spiritual weapon and Flame blade, and that with the strange voice not-Thad might be an outsider or dragon.  They mention #730 10th panel where someone wields a pair of long weapons made of glow.  They mention that many of these seem incompatible with wearing heavy armor, but that you could solve that by multi-classing one level of fighter.  Discussion briefly continues after not-Thad's final appearance, where we learn that their blade is made of pure, but it goes nowhere.  Who'd have thought that when someone already has a weapon with a crossguard made of glow only, with apparently no material inside the glow, then mentioning that it's a blade made of pure doesn't add information?  In any case, not-Thad has so very few appearances (only four strips) and casts no spells, so we can't conclude anything useful.

Update: in an unrelated topic, please put the new shield in Durkon's entry.  He clearly still has the shield, he uses it in #1239 3rd panels.

----------


## danielxcutter

No, I mean wasnt there a very similar sword being used in one of the AMFES things?

----------


## Yanisa

> No, I mean wasnt there a very similar sword being used in one of the AMFES things?


One of the human _Soulknife_ Mindblade indeed looks exactly like the sword in the comic. There are also Kalasthar and Halfling Soulknives who have Mindblades with hilts in different colors, close to the one in the comic.

There is also a human Soulknife with a Mindblade more similar to #730, but with different grips. (The one in the comic is more scimitar like, whereas in the AMFES one is more katana like.)

----------


## hamishspence

> *Lien*
> Lawful Good, Human female, Paladin 12+ (higher level than Hinjo).
> Str 13+ (required for Cleave).
> Int 10+ (good, not dumb).
> Wis 11+ (required to cast spells).
> Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands).
> _Age:_ 23+ (younger than Hinjo, GDGU).
> _Feats:_ Cleave, Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Weapon Focus: Spear.
> _Abilities:_ Paladin class abilities, paladin mount: large shark "Razor".
> _Items:_ Spear; magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP); Ring of Waterbreathing, crossbow.


Given that regular Large or Huge sharks don't have Swallow Whole as an option, but Dire sharks do:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shark.htm

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direShark.htm

might strip 1251 be used as evidence for Razor being a dire shark?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1251.html

----------


## Rogan

> Given that regular Large or Huge sharks don't have Swallow Whole as an option, but Dire sharks do:
> 
> https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shark.htm
> 
> https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direShark.htm
> 
> might strip 1251 be used as evidence for Razor being a dire shark?
> 
> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1251.html


Since Swallow Whole deals acid damage, it would contradict Liens words a bit. 

I also don't think Razor is big enough, but that's hard to judge.

----------


## hamishspence

It's possible. Another way of justifying the scene is "Sereni wasn't actually _swallowed_ - she fits in the closed mouth, but hadn't actually passed down the gullet to the stomach when Razor disappeared."

----------


## b_jonas

Per #1240 first panel, Belkar must have fire-starting tools.  Please add that to his entry.

----------


## Wildstag

> They mention that many of these seem incompatible with wearing heavy armor, but that you could solve that by multi-classing one level of fighter.  Discussion briefly continues after not-Thad's final appearance, where we learn that their blade is made of pure, but it goes nowhere.  Who'd have thought that when someone already has a weapon with a crossguard made of glow only, with apparently no material inside the glow, then mentioning that it's a blade made of pure doesn't add information?


For what it's worth, in that discussion about pure, I'm surprised that it doesn't actually bring up Incarnate Weapon's text, which reads...




> _When you hold your incarnate weapon, a chain of nearly invisible blue incarnum connects it to the steel bracer on your weapon hand, channeling the force of your conviction directly to your weapon._
> 
> As a move action, you can charge the incarnate weapon with the stunning power of pure conviction. If the next melee attack that you make is successful, the target (as long as at least one component of its alignment is opposed to your devoted alignment) must succeed on a Fortitude saving throw or be stunned until the beginning of your next turn.


The only downside to the argument is how the italicized fluff text the chains, and I'm not entirely certain if that's even _technically_ fluff text. The "pure conviction" actually would fit well though.

----------


## MultitudeMan

> Given that regular Large or Huge sharks don't have Swallow Whole as an option, but Dire sharks do:
> 
> https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shark.htm
> 
> https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direShark.htm
> 
> might strip 1251 be used as evidence for Razor being a dire shark?
> 
> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1251.html


Since a Dire Shark is always neutral, can it live in the Celestial Ocean? I thought Celestial Creatures always had to be good?

----------


## hamishspence

Templates like Celestial are often applied to animals. They _change_ said animal's alignment from Neutral to Good (and the Type changes from Animal, into Magical Beast).



_"Celestial" is an inherited template that can be added to any corporeal aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, or vermin of good or neutral alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature)._
_

Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged._

----------


## Yanisa

Well technically we are dealing with a Paladin Mount here. Which isn't a celestial creature (but a magical beast that lives on the celestial plane) and which cannot be a dire shark (at least within the core rules).

----------


## hamishspence

The core rules were published in 3.0 before the MM came out. It's inevitable that the 3.5 PHB is not going to reference monsters that are only statted in MM2.

And considering that Hinjo's mount is a dire wolf (with there being no 3.5 rules for_ that_ either) it's fairly logical to presume "The OOTS-verse allows for non-standard Mounts".

Probably the rules in the 3.0 book Defenders of the Faith (those rules do allow for Dire Wolf paladin mounts and discuss the possibility of using other creatures not in the table).

----------


## Quartz

Does this strip help us apply numbers to Serini? Specifically her Str score . grappling ability and her Intimidation and Persuasion skills?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Does this strip help us apply numbers to Serini? Specifically her Str score . grappling ability and her Intimidation and Persuasion skills?


I don't think this strip shows much of anything about Serini's stats.

 Grappling: Haley successfully grapples Serini in panel 12, which means she beat Serini on an opposed grappling check. Haley's bonus is between +14 and +16, depending on what exactly her strength is, and assuming she doesn't have any gear that boosts it (which makes sense, as she doesn't typically do much grappling. Serini then kicks Haley in panel 13, which I think means she used the "damage your opponent" grapple option. If so, she must have beat Haley at an opposed grapple check. Since they each beat the other, neither one can have a grapple bonus more than 19 points higher than the other. Thus, Serini's grapple bonus can be no more than +35 and no less than -5. That's a broad enough range that I feel comfortable not listing it in Serini's stats.As for her effect on Belkar, I don't think Intimidate fits her spouting insults, because she was talking to Haley, not Belkar, and Intimidate has to be directed at a specific person. Her dialogue in panels 14 and 15 definitely fits either Bluff or Diplomacy, depending on whether or not she was being honest, but regardless of which skill she used I don't think we can deduce anything from the attempt. Diplomacy automatically fails against PCs, so if she was using that skill there's nothing we can learn from her failure. She might have successfully bluffed Belkar, but since he has zero ranks in Sense Motive that's not much of an accomplishment - it could even be done if she has no ranks in Bluff!

----------


## Yanisa

> The core rules were published in 3.0 before the MM came out. It's inevitable that the 3.5 PHB is not going to reference monsters that are only statted in MM2.
> 
> And considering that Hinjo's mount is a dire wolf (with there being no 3.5 rules for_ that_ either) it's fairly logical to presume "The OOTS-verse allows for non-standard Mounts".
> 
> Probably the rules in the 3.0 book Defenders of the Faith (those rules do allow for Dire Wolf paladin mounts and discuss the possibility of using other creatures not in the table).


A dire wolf is a 3.5 core legal mount, but those rules aren't part of the SRD.  :Small Tongue:  It's in the DMG [3.5 revision] page 204-205. Bonus fun fact: Celestial horses are part of the unusual mounts.

Still, those same rules also give a DM the room to add more usual mounts then the one listed. So your point still stands. The requirement being, it must be able to carry people, must be _at least_ one size category larger than the rider and have a CR of no more then 3 lower than the rider. Those all three are yes, so Dire Sharks could be added under the same rules that added Dire Wolf.

----------


## MultitudeMan

So, did we come to consensus about whether Lien's Paladin mount is a dire shark, or just a regular Large shark?

----------


## Squire Doodad

> So, did we come to consensus about whether Lien's Paladin mount is a dire shark, or just a regular Large shark?


Dire Shark:
Pros - fits power/size, has _Swallow Whole_ as ability.
Cons - _Swallow Whole_ deals acid damage, which is explicitly not being dealt. Could also be that Serini wasn't being moved into the stomach, just swallowed.
Large Shark:
Pros - fits size, does not have _Swallow Whole_ as ability and so does not deal acid damage on swallowing.
Cons - Does not have _Swallow Whole_ as ability, Dire Shark is cooler and stronger.

----------


## InvisibleBison

I don't think Razor is big enough to be a dire shark. By my measurements, Razor is about 4.13 times as long as Serini is tall. Female halflings can be between 2' 8" to 3' 2" tall, which means Razor is between 11 to 13 feet long (approximately). That's a reasonable for a large shark, which can be up to 15 feet long, but completely inadequate for a 25-foot-long dire shark.

----------


## Squire Doodad

Duly noted, Large Shark it is.

----------


## Riftwolf

> Since Swallow Whole deals acid damage, it would contradict Liens words a bit. 
> 
> I also don't think Razor is big enough, but that's hard to judge.


A random thought attached to this, has there been a firing/rehiring of a familiar or a mount (as might happen when a player upgrades to Improved Familiar) in any of the side books (it seems like the sort of thing that'd be in SS&DT, but I've not read that)?

----------


## Emanick

> A random thought attached to this, has there been a firing/rehiring of a familiar or a mount (as might happen when a player upgrades to Improved Familiar) in any of the side books (it seems like the sort of thing that'd be in SS&DT, but I've not read that)?


I am fairly sure there hasn't been. It does seem like the kind of thing Rich would depict, though. It seems so much up his alley that it wouldn't surprise me too much if, by some odd coincidence, it'd happened in the ~6 (IIRC) Gygax strips I haven't read.

----------


## Riftwolf

> I am fairly sure there hasn't been. It does seem like the kind of thing Rich would depict, though. It seems so much up his alley that it wouldn't surprise me too much if, by some odd coincidence, it'd happened in the ~6 (IIRC) Gygax strips I haven't read.


My train of thought was, if Razor is indeed a dire shark, then either they were a dire shark since the Battle of Azure City (which would say something about Lien's level that might contradict other things in the comic), or Razor evolved into a Dire Shark, or Razor the regular shark was replaced by Razor the Legally Distinct Dire Shark when Lien reached the requisite level. I didn't know if Rich had covered the replacement of familiars/mounts before, which could've been a clue as to how it might've transpired.
For what it's worth I doubt Razor is a Dire Shark based on Swallow Whole alone. I'd be very surprised if Swallow Whole wasn't a monstrous feat somewhere out in the splats.

----------


## hamishspence

There are ways of _improving_ an existing Swallow ability, but not much in the way of _gaining_ a swallow ability if they don't already have one.

However, I could see The Giant _extrapolating downwards_ from "Dire Shark" - concluding that 

"If Dire Sharks can grab/swallow Medium creatures, Large Sharks_ ought to_ be able to grab/swallow Small creatures" and buffing the standard Large Shark slightly by adding the ability.

----------


## dsollen

I doubt we would get much in terms of useful numbers, but still have to ask.  Can we infer anything about levels of bluff/sense motive based off the fact that neither rogue could determine if the other was bluffing?

----------


## danielxcutter

Considering the nature of the d20 system and the fact that both skills are Rogue class skills... no.

----------


## Heksefatter

Question: How does OotPCs say that Belkar has an int below 10? All I could find is that he says that he may not be the sharpest stick in the wood. I'd say that even with an int of 10 and a wis and cha under 10, it would fit.

----------


## danielxcutter

I wouldn't take that as related to his Charisma score, but otherwise yes it doesn't necessarily seem to indicate anything about stats.

----------


## MultitudeMan

> Question: How does OotPCs say that Belkar has an int below 10? All I could find is that he says that he may not be the sharpest stick in the wood. I'd say that even with an int of 10 and a wis and cha under 10, it would fit.


I've petitioned for that line from Belkar's entry to be removed before (I think that panels 5 and 6 of this strip are at least as strong evidence for Belkar having INT above 10 as the line from OOPC is for INT below 10), but it didn't gain any traction. Maybe an idea whose time has come?  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Yanisa

So I delved into the archives to find out when it was added. Belkar's int was defined IX, but is in X. But in those threads I al found was




> I have a question: Where does it say in OOPC that Belkar's int is less than 10?





> Doing a quick scan, all I see is:
> 
> : I may not be the brightest torch in the dungeon, but I know the path to sweet, sweet freedom when I see it.
> 
> Is there anything else there that I might be missing?


It's not the original discussion, but maybe it's based on that line, maybe not.

----------


## Kakuro

Just as a heads up Haley's section has her adamantine dagger in front of the four extra wands which kind ruins the flow.

----------


## dancrilis

> * Elan* 
> *Items:* Bedroll, Banjo, coffee maker, espresto box, ceremonial meat costume (OOPC), ritalin (OOPC), dice, Boots of Elvenkind, kazoo, jam, lantern, pingpong bat, roller skate, squirrel, yoyo, Ring of Protection (WXP), dashing outfit, toothbrush, Lutey the Lute-tastical Lute, evil sword (SSDT), castanets and sombrero (SSDT), equipment lists (GYG), Belt of Charisma +2, treasure chest, drawing, The Stick the Order was named after, letter, Chaos Sabre, Wand of Cure Moderate Wounds, Armand Vestinghole; no armor.
> 
> * Haley Starshine*
> *Items:* Two gemstones, 8 Bags of Holding, towel,  hair dryer, Ring of Protection (WXP), rope,  +5 Air Freshener of Pineness, a lot of clothes, bedroll, +5 Icy Burst Longbow, bag of copper pieces (SSDT), magic leather armor, dyed Boots of Speed (forum), trowel, metal detector, Bleedingham papers, 4+ quivers of green arrows including silver and cold iron, three potions (since Belkar took one), thief's tools, Z's wands, Wand of Obscuring Mist, Magic Missile, Fly, adamantine dagger, and four others, winter coat, Elan's coat, Quippie the dead osquip head.


Two items:
Elan is not listed as having 'Bleedingham papers' where Haley (and Vaarsuvius) are listed as having them.
Secondly Haley perhaps should be listed as having her fathers bounty paper.

----------


## urbanwolf

Question about Soon Kim. 
His Cra is listed as 14+ because of Sacred Watcher, but shouldn't  it be 17+  3 for age and 4 Sacred Watcher he appears to have died from old age. 

If this had been discussed  before sorry. I am just bored at work.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Two items:
> Elan is not listed as having 'Bleedingham papers' where Haley (and Vaarsuvius) are listed as having them.
> Secondly Haley perhaps should be listed as having her fathers bounty paper.


Also, Elan is listed as owning no armour, which is incorrect, since he retrieved his old outfit (presumably including the chain shirt) from Nale, he's just not been wearing it for some time now.

----------


## MultitudeMan

I was looking at Belkar's entry, and a few things about his feats list concerned me. Here are the issues as I see them, and my suggested solutions.

Firstly, there's the number of feats. Not counting the ranger bonus feats, there are 7, which would imply that Belkar is level 18 overall. In that none of the Order have demonstrated even level 17, I find this highly implausible of itself. The obvious candidate for removal is Craft Disturbing Mental Image, which it seems pretty clear to me was an end-panel punchline, not an informative comment by Belkar about his build.

It gets worse though. As his other 6 feats are currently a 4-feat chain culminating in Bounding Assault (demonstrated in panel 9) and a 2-feat chain culminating in Improved Sunder (demonstrated here), it would be necessary, with the current feat list, for Belkar to be level 18 in strip #325! This, despite being patently ridiculous, would contradict his being exactly level 15 in the pyramid fight (deafened by Durkon's Holy Word), unless he lost 3 levels off-panel somehow, and didn't level between #325 and #860. Even dropping CDMI doesn't really resolve this, as it would still require Belkar to have the 4-feat chain by #176, and also the two-feat chain by #325, and to have been level 15 in both strips #325 and #860. I agree that Improved Sunder and Spring Attack are the best explanations of #325 and #928, but the package doesn't hang together at all well.

Fortunately, there is a simple resolution. Two-Weapon Pounce was suggested at the time as an alternate explanation of Belkar's "flawless victory" in #176, and this change makes the feats fit much, much easier. The feat sequence could then run something like:

1: Power Attack
3: Dodge
6: Improved Sunder
9: Two-Weapon Pounce
12: Mobility
15: Spring Attack

All feats gained in time for their relevant scenes, no unrealistic level requirements. The sequence I list here isn't definitive, especially in the early feats, but I thought it was generous to imagine that Belkar took Power Attack before he'd decided between TWF and Archery. The only additional pre-req to add would be giving Belkar a Dex of 15+, which is not at all unlikely for a halfling.

Is this optimized? Heck no, Belkar remains a Ranger who can't cast spells from his innate Wisdom, and who took Power Attack, yet fights with daggers, but this is much closer to both RAW and our level estimations than what we have right now.

TL DR: There are problems with Belkar's feat list. Dropping CDMI, changing Bounding Assault to Two-Weapon Pounce, and upping Belkar's Dex to 15+ resolves them.

----------


## Doug Lampert

> Is this optimized? Heck no, Belkar remains a Ranger who can't cast spells from his innate Wisdom, and who took Power Attack, yet fights with daggers, but this is much closer to both RAW and our level estimations than what we have right now.


Note that in 3.0 there was no choice between twf and archery, rangers got twf by default, and power attack WORKED with light weapons so it was golden for rangers who needed bonus damage to make their builds work.

Like V, Belkar did not do well out of the edition change in strip 1.

----------


## MultitudeMan

> Note that in 3.0 there was no choice between twf and archery, rangers got twf by default, and power attack WORKED with light weapons so it was golden for rangers who needed bonus damage to make their builds work.
> 
> Like V, Belkar did not do well out of the edition change in strip 1.


I did not know that! That makes my feat order even more plausible, then. Thoughts about making the changes I suggest?

----------


## mjp1050

> TL DR: There are problems with Belkar's feat list. Dropping CDMI, changing Bounding Assault to Two-Weapon Pounce, and upping Belkar's Dex to 15+ resolves them.


Sounds good to me. The opening post could use a little trimming of the fat in general. Too many things on there are clearly a joke, or extrapolated from tenuous evidence, or don't have an explanation at all. 

While we're on the subject of changing things, can we just strike this rule?




> _Q: Is a character's statement about another character considered evidence?_
> Yes. We assume that when a character says something about another character's (or their own) ability scores, build, feats, and so forth, they are speaking the truth, except where this contradicts with other evidence or is clearly not possible within the rules.


It's flawed. It assumes that 1) characters have perfect knowledge about each other's builds and 2) everything they say about each other is accurate. It also means we have to include the obvious joke builds like Craft: Disturbing Mental Image.

----------


## dancrilis

> It's flawed. It assumes that 1) characters have perfect knowledge about each other's builds and 2) everything they say about each other is accurate. It also means we have to include the obvious joke builds like Craft: Disturbing Mental Image.


It isn't an absolute rule (otherwise Oona would be a ranger - which frankly I think she should be), but on your two points.

Character statements are often the only clear way that The Giant can communicate to us about what someone is - if we ignore it then things like Elan's charisma become in doubt.

On Belkar he could be level 18 (he had made 8 attacks here panels 2,3 and 5 without responce - if we assume that panel 5 is his attack of opportunity then that is 7 attacks which he would have with 4 base and 3 two weapon fighting attacks) - which would allow him to keep all his feats and works nicely with him being able to treat an opponent 4 levels higher then Haley like a chump.

----------


## MultitudeMan

> On Belkar he could be level 18 (he had made 8 attacks here panels 2,3 and 5 without responce - if we assume that panel 5 is his attack of opportunity then that is 7 attacks which he would have with 4 base and 3 two weapon fighting attacks) - which would allow him to keep all his feats and works nicely with him being able to treat an opponent 4 levels higher then Haley like a chump.


Belkar would gain his 4th attack (not including off-hand attacks) at level 16, not level 18, so I'm not quite sure what point you're making. For #616, I had assumed that panels 1 & 2 were in one round, and panel 3 was the start of a new round, with Belkar deliberately making fewer attacks than he could in panel 5 to avoid kill-stealing. 

However, the issue still remains that if he's 16+ in this fight, then how is he exactly level 15 in the pyramid fight for Durkon's Holy Word to deafen, but not blind him? I really don't think we can put Durkon at level 17 in the pyramid fight for the sake of upping Belkar's level.

I know Belkar taunts Bozzok and Crystal here, but I also notice that he drops his +2 dagger to pick up Bozzok's shield, so he clearly valued the extra AC over extra attacks. I think he was belittling the Rogues for their 3/4 BAB (unlike "proper" martials), but his actions show that he actually considered them a threat, and altered his tactics accordingly.

----------


## dancrilis

> Belkar would gain his 4th attack (not including off-hand attacks) at level 16, not level 18, so I'm not quite sure what point you're making.


The point is that if Belkar is a higher level then he is listed at then he could have the feats he currently has.




> For #616, I had assumed that panels 1 & 2 were in one round, and panel 3 was the start of a new round, with Belkar deliberately making fewer attacks than he could in panel 5 to avoid kill-stealing.


You can assume whatever you want but there is no indication of a counter attack or a break in his dialogue.




> However, the issue still remains that if he's 16+ in this fight, then how is he exactly level 15 in the pyramid fight for Durkon's Holy Word to deafen, but not blind him? I really don't think we can put Durkon at level 17 in the pyramid fight for the sake of upping Belkar's level.


There are many ways to increase caster level for spells.




> I know Belkar taunts Bozzok and Crystal here, but I also notice that he drops his +2 dagger to pick up Bozzok's shield, so he clearly valued the extra AC over extra attacks. I think he was belittling the Rogues for their 3/4 BAB (unlike "proper" martials), but his actions show that he actually considered them a threat, and altered his tactics accordingly.


An equal level rogue with support from a lower level rogue (or anyone) is a threat - frankly with sneak attacks even lower level rogues are a threat, Belkar treated them as such but he knew how to mitigate that threat.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> The point is that if Belkar is a higher level then he is listed at then he could have the feats he currently has.
> 
> You can assume whatever you want but there is no indication of a counter attack or a break in his dialogue.
> 
> There are many ways to increase caster level for spells.
> 
> An equal level rogue with support from a lower level rogue (or anyone) is a threat - frankly with sneak attacks even lower level rogues are a threat, Belkar treated them as such but he knew how to mitigate that threat.


We have many other instances of characters attacking without break, if only Xykon's iconic Energy Drain spam in SoD. 
There indeed is many ways to improve caster level, but Durkon is never shown to use them, while V (for example) pretty clearly is. The point of this thread is to make the least amount of unbased assumption possible, and "Belkar is lv 18 and Durkon has items to boost his caster level by 3 and Nale and Zz'dtri are at level 18 too but Z never used a 9th level spell" is more assumption than just "The Giant took some artistic liberty in depicting those two combat rounds and Belkar is just that good". Honestly, the power levels are kinda all over the place. We have seen Roy solo basically the entire dominated Order (who were all higher level than he is), why wouldn't Belkar be able to beat two rogues?

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

Did we ever figure out what mind control spell Xykon used in SOD to 
*Spoiler: Start of Darkness*
Show

implant the permanent suggestion that the MitD would eat Redcloak and spit out his amulet should he ever betray Xykon?


I haven't found any sorcerer Compulsion spell with such a permanent effect, except Hypnotism. If the target was already friendly to Xykon (which it seemingly was), that would make it permanently fanatic in regards to that specific suggestion, which is probably how it will work. At the very least, we should put some variation of "mind-control spell permanent until discharged" in Xykon's spell list.

*Spoiler: Speculation with spoilers for SOD*
Show

This would also make the MitD at most 12 RHD (maximum of an empowered Hypnotism), and more likely 8 RHD (Maximized Hypnotism). Now, this may be because the MitD is still a child ("it will grow in time"), and Xykon put an Hypnotism on it knowing that it would soon become much more powerful. Or it means that the MitD really has no more than 8 RHD, which I find doubtful.

----------


## MultitudeMan

Does anyone else think that Serini's interactions with the trolls are evidence of at least one rank in Diplomacy?

----------


## Jervis

> Does anyone else think that Serini's interactions with the trolls are evidence of at least one rank in Diplomacy?


Most likely animal handling as well because of all the aberrations around doing what she asks actually do they use animal handing?

----------


## b_jonas

> Most likely animal handling as well because of all the aberrations around doing what she asks actually do they use animal handing?


I think the Handle animal is used only for domesticated animals.  For everything else, you use Diplomacy or Wild empathy, which are basically the same skills, only bards call it Diplomacy while Rangers or Druids call it Wild empathy (#335 last panel).  Then there's the third skill, Ride (#141 9th).

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Does anyone else think that Serini's interactions with the trolls are evidence of at least one rank in Diplomacy?


I don't think you need to have ranks in Diplomacy in order to have friends. Serini could have used Diplomacy to befriend the trolls, but she could also have done it some other, more involved way, and since we don't actually see the process occurring we don't have enough information to determine which way it happened.

----------


## danielxcutter

I mean she probably _does_ have at least a few ranks in it, but yeah not enough proof for the purposes of this thread.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I don't think you need to have ranks in Diplomacy in order to have friends. Serini could have used Diplomacy to befriend the trolls, but she could also have done it some other, more involved way, and since we don't actually see the process occurring we don't have enough information to determine which way it happened.


Not to mention that Diplomacy isn't Trained Only, and Serini thinks she had a decent CHA even before the bonuses for her age.

----------


## Xihirli

Does this comic confirm that Ho Thanh was less than ninth level at the time?
I count nine times that you touch before the second line finishes.

----------


## Seward

> Also, Elan is listed as owning no armour, which is incorrect, since he retrieved his old outfit (presumably including the chain shirt) from Nale, he's just not been wearing it for some time now.


I think Dashing Swordsman doesn't allow armor use (gotta show off that high charisma).  Elan changed out of the chain shirt when he took that class, and we've never seen him in armor since.  He might still have the armor in hammerspace, or he might have sold it to fund Haley's shopping at some point (azure city prior to invastion, tent city, bleedingham, tinkertown...)

----------


## Metastachydium

> I think Dashing Swordsman doesn't allow armor use (gotta show off that high charisma).  Elan changed out of the chain shirt when he took that class, and we've never seen him in armor since.  He might still have the armor in hammerspace, or he might have sold it to fund Haley's shopping at some point (azure city prior to invastion, tent city, bleedingham, tinkertown...)


dancrilis, is that you? On a more serious note,
1. Elan changed out of his old outfit when Nale kidnapped him and took his clothes; he's been wearing his current garb well before he gained his first level in the prestige class, the restrictions imposed by which we know next to nothing about anyway; and
2. a cursory look tells me that Roy supposedly still owns his greatclub, the newspaper from a throwaway panel and that potion and Delay Posion plus the useless Shillelagh oil; Belkar is listed as having all of his pre-_BRitF_ daggers, the unholy symbol of Whitecloak (which he has absolutely no use for) and a clothespin from another gag panel; V's inventory, in the meantime, also includes _books we know they abandoned on the island in the wake of ABD's attack_. By the same metric, Elan should absolutely _not_ be described as owning _no armour_ based on a strip that only proves he's not _wearing_ one.

♣
Speaking of Belkar, the list of his belongings seems to assume he stole Haley's bag of holding. I see no reason to assume he did that.

----------


## danielxcutter

Didnt he mention that Dashing Swordsman doesnt really work with armor when Haley bought her own?

----------


## Peelee

> Didnt he mention that Dashing Swordsman doesnt really work with armor when Haley bought her own?


Did     he?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Did     he?


Yes, he does.

----------


## Xihirli

Elan:



> Int 4-9 (too low to cast cantrips, but higher than Thog.


Isn't mending a cantrip?

----------


## Jervis

> Elan:
> 
> 
> Isn't mending a cantrip?


To cast wizard cantrips not bard ones

----------


## Yxylu

> Elan:
> 
> 
> Isn't mending a cantrip?


As a bard, he uses charisma instead of intelligence for all of his spells, including cantrips.

----------


## Jervis

What spell was Xykon using to draw on the cliff walls in the newest issue? Too weak an effect for disintegrate and the spell itself seemed to work for a while so either its a cantrip he can spam or it has a duration. Either way its enough to damage rock without making a considerable dent

----------


## Yanisa

> What spell was Xykon using to draw on the cliff walls in the newest issue? Too weak an effect for disintegrate and the spell itself seemed to work for a while so either its a cantrip he can spam or it has a duration. Either way its enough to damage rock without making a considerable dent


The only cantrips that can deal damage are Ray of Frost and Orb of Acid. Both don't fit this scene.

In addition, if we assume the cliff walls are stone, we are dealing with 8 hardness and 15hp/inch. Even if we assume the damaged surface layer is like 1/15 of an inch, we still need a spell that needs to deal at least 9 damage. Also there is a rule about Energy Attacks dealing less damage to objects. Stone seems to be outside cantrip range. (All damage cantrips deal 1d3 damage.)

Unless we go into a little bit of speculation: if Xykon has a 1d3 Ray of Fire cantrip (by switching energy types) and the damage is to ice instead of stone. It could be a modified Ray of Frost, or an homebrew cantrip.
(Ice has a hardness of 0, and 3hp/inch.)

Besides that, there aren't a lot of ray spells. There is Scorching Ray with 4d6 fire damage, which is a level 2 spell. It does have enough damage to destroy stone, but it wouldn't be consistent. If it is ice, it would be easy. Also it lacks the multiple rays that Scorching Ray is famous for, so I wouldn't use this scene as evidence for Scorching Ray.

Beyond Scorching Ray we get spells like Ray of Exhaustion, Polar Ray and Disintegrate. All poor candidates for this scene.

Perhaps someone else knows a better fit outside of the SRD list.

----------


## Jervis

> The only cantrips that can deal damage are Ray of Frost and Orb of Acid. Both don't fit this scene.
> 
> In addition, if we assume the cliff walls are stone, we are dealing with 8 hardness and 15hp/inch. Even if we assume the damaged surface layer is like 1/15 of an inch, we still need a spell that needs to deal at least 9 damage. Also there is a rule about Energy Attacks dealing less damage to objects. Stone seems to be outside cantrip range. (All damage cantrips deal 1d3 damage.)
> 
> Unless we go into a little bit of speculation: if Xykon has a 1d3 Ray of Fire cantrip (by switching energy types) and the damage is to ice instead of stone. It could be a modified Ray of Frost, or an homebrew cantrip.
> (Ice has a hardness of 0, and 3hp/inch.)
> 
> Besides that, there aren't a lot of ray spells. There is Scorching Ray with 4d6 fire damage, which is a level 2 spell. It does have enough damage to destroy stone, but it wouldn't be consistent. If it is ice, it would be easy. Also it lacks the multiple rays that Scorching Ray is famous for, so I wouldn't use this scene as evidence for Scorching Ray.
> 
> ...


As people have suggested Disintegrate Finesse can technically do it but the conversation took to long, if he was using that he would have melted it all in 6 seconds. I originally assumed it was a reserve feat but the only thing that remotely fits is Storm Bolt which is line effect that deals electric damage. Reach Spell + any of the Blank touch spells work, so he could be using something like Scalding Touch. Reach Scalding Touch (9th level spell effectively) deals 13d6 fire damage on each hit and after casting (he only pays the sorcerer metamagic badness on the initial casting) he can make a touch attack a number of times equal to his very high caster level. So it takes a while to cast but after that he has a CL use ray touch attack that can be made as an action or part of a full attack that can burn through a lot of stone.

----------


## El Dorado

Might be overkill, but I figured Xykons grafitti ray could be an archmages arcane fire ability. Though the prestige class requirements are a bit steep.

----------


## Jervis

> Might be overkill, but I figured Xykons grafitti ray could be an archmages arcane fire ability. Though the prestige class requirements are a bit steep.


Wasnt Xykon confirmed to have just taken sorcerer 20/ epic sorcerer x somewhere?

----------


## MultitudeMan

> Reach Spell + any of the Blank touch spells work, so he could be using something like Scalding Touch. Reach Scalding Touch (9th level spell effectively) deals 13d6 fire damage on each hit and after casting (he only pays the sorcerer metamagic badness on the initial casting) he can make a touch attack a number of times equal to his very high caster level. So it takes a while to cast but after that he has a CL use ray touch attack that can be made as an action or part of a full attack that can burn through a lot of stone.


The only problem with Scalding Touch is that it's 7th level for Sorcerers, and we already have three confirmed 7th level spells for Xykon here, so we'd also have to add something like the epic feat Spell Knowledge as well.

----------


## dancrilis

We do know that Xykon has symbol spells - his drawing could be one (or more) of them, in theory.

----------


## Jervis

> The only problem with Scalding Touch is that it's 7th level for Sorcerers, and we already have three confirmed 7th level spells for Xykon here, so we'd also have to add something like the epic feat Spell Knowledge as well.


Theres a 5th level spell that works just as well, storming touch IIRC. Also worth noting the Eberron stuff exists in the setting because Deathless from the Sapphire Guard

----------


## hamishspence

Deathless were in BoED before the Eberron Campaign Setting book came out.

though the possibly that the ones in OOTS were _"cribbed off"_ Eberron is alluded to by Redcloak:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html

----------


## Metastachydium

> Yes, he does.


My mistake, then. The rest of my rant kind of stands notwithstanding, and I feel that at the very least, we could perhaps add the strip you linked as evidence for the conjecture  in the first post instead of the largely nonindicative one with the Kubota and the boat.




> Deathless were in BoED before the Eberron Campaign Setting book came out.
> 
> though the possibly that the ones in OOTS were _"cribbed off"_ Eberron is alluded to by Redcloak:
> 
> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html


The "official" position of this here thread, on the other hand seems to be that they are of the _BoED_ sort, and frankly, sacred watcher does indeed fit the abilities the ghost martyrs display quite well.

----------


## Jervis

> My mistake, then. The rest of my rant kind of stands notwithstanding, and I feel that at the very least, we could perhaps add the strip you linked as evidence for the conjecture  in the first post instead of the largely nonindicative one with the Kubota and the boat.
> 
> 
> 
> The "official" position of this here thread, on the other hand seems to be that they are of the _BoED_ sort, and frankly, sacred watcher does indeed fit the abilities the ghost martyrs display quite well.


Yes but redcloak himself said they might be cribbed of a different setting so I think its valid

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Theres a 5th level spell that works just as well, storming touch IIRC. Also worth noting the Eberron stuff exists in the setting because Deathless from the Sapphire Guard


Just because one element of a given setting is incorporated into another setting doesn't mean every element of the first setting has been so incorporated.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Just because one element of a given setting is incorporated into another setting doesn't mean every element of the first setting has been so incorporated.


For my part, I concur.

----------


## durron597

Oona's analysis from #1263 clearly indicates a high wisdom score, but maybe we need more rigor than that to give mental stats attribute scores?

I wonder if Oona's insightfulness stems from a combination of low or average Int + High Wis, or a good amount of both but low formal education? Or maybe no way to tell?

----------


## dancrilis

> Oona's analysis from #1263 clearly indicates a high wisdom score, but maybe we need more rigor than that to give mental stats attribute scores?


I believe you mean 1262, and it is not enough to go on for any kind of changes.




> I wonder if Oona's insightfulness stems from a combination of low or average Int + High Wis, or a good amount of both but low formal education? Or maybe no way to tell?


I tend to lean towards fine int and wis (12+ on both) and just cultural language used - might change that as we see more of her or deal with more of the bugbears.

----------


## Sybarith

Does comic 1264 give us any new hints into Redcloak's level?
Since you can only summon as many hit die worth of monsters as your caster level, do we know what the combined level of those monsters are? 
My guess is that's a Quarton with a few Monodrones to fill in the remaining hit die, but the total CR seems off for where Redcloak should be at this stage and I don't see why he wouldn't summon the maximum he could. Or maybe more of them are about to come through the portal before it closes?

----------


## Jervis

> Does comic 1264 give us any new hints into Redcloak's level?
> Since you can only summon as many hit die worth of monsters as your caster level, do we know what the combined level of those monsters are? 
> My guess is that's a Quarton with a few Monodrones to fill in the remaining hit die, but the total CR seems off for where Redcloak should be at this stage and I don't see why he wouldn't summon the maximum he could. Or maybe more of them are about to come through the portal before it closes?


Actually the spell only specifies a HD limit if the creatures are not unique and youre trying to control them. If that creature is a unique creature then theres no limit but he cant control it. That said he wont be controlling them anyway because control only lasts for a few rounds so he needs to negotiate anyway. That said we know hes at least 17 but likely not epic, otherwise epic spellcasting is a thing. And RC, unlike Xykon, is probably smart enough to use that

----------


## Yendor

Meanwhile, we have in-comic confirmation that Redcloak is Lawful.

----------


## Gwen

*dusts off forum account*  What comic 1264 does tell us about Redcloak, unless I'm forgetting something wildly obvious, is that either his level or his Wisdom is higher than this thread's current estimation.  That's not based on guesses about the Law elemental's HD, but rather on Redcloak casting two 9th-level spells on one prayed-for allotment.

At 17th level, with no bonus spells based on his power stat, he'd only have one 9th-level spell and one domain spelland neither Gate nor Implosion are domain spells for Evil or Law.  Ergo, he has to be either 18th level,  able to cast two 9th-level spells and still have a domain spell in his back pocket, or he has to have the requisite Wisdom to get a bonus 9th-level spell at 17th level, which would put his Wisdom at a minimum of 28.

(I haven't posted in the forums in literal years, but I do still like to duck in sometimes, and this is a fun thread.  Kudos to the regulars who keep it going!)

----------


## Yendor

> *dusts off forum account*  What comic 1264 does tell us about Redcloak, unless I'm forgetting something wildly obvious, is that either his level or his Wisdom is higher than this thread's current estimation.  That's not based on guesses about the Law elemental's HD, but rather on Redcloak casting two 9th-level spells on one prayed-for allotment.
> 
> At 17th level, with no bonus spells based on his power stat, he'd only have one 9th-level spell and one domain spelland neither Gate nor Implosion are domain spells for Evil or Law.  Ergo, he has to be either 18th level,  able to cast two 9th-level spells and still have a domain spell in his back pocket, or he has to have the requisite Wisdom to get a bonus 9th-level spell at 17th level, which would put his Wisdom at a minimum of 28.
> 
> (I haven't posted in the forums in literal years, but I do still like to duck in sometimes, and this is a fun thread.  Kudos to the regulars who keep it going!)


Implosion is a domain spell for Destruction, and we know he has that because he can cast Disintegrate.

----------


## Gwen

> Implosion is a domain spell for Destruction, and we know he has that because he can cast Disintegrate.


Ah, there'd be the wildly obvious thing.  Oh, well.   :Redface:

----------


## ff7hero

And we know from the Cleric duel that Law _isn't_ one of his Domains.

----------


## Jasdoif

> And we know from the Cleric duel that Law _isn't_ one of his Domains.


We know that Redcloak knows _hold monster_ isn't on the standard cleric spell list.

*Spoiler: Start of Darkness*
Show

Redcloak casts _hold monster_ himself, at the circus manticore.

----------


## b_jonas

> Meanwhile, we have in-comic confirmation that Redcloak is Lawful.


It's not entirely clear-cut.  As far as I understand the rules, as long as neither Redcloak nor The Dark One are chaotic, Redcloak can use Gate to summon lawful Modrons.  So he could be neutral evil.  Redcloak says I think the circumstances call for a different skill set  from the _other_ side of the family., but I don't think that is a clear enough statement to mean that he is lawful.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> It's not entirely clear-cut.  As far as I understand the rules, as long as neither Redcloak nor The Dark One are chaotic, Redcloak can use Gate to summon lawful Modrons.  So he could be neutral evil.  Redcloak says I think the circumstances call for a different skill set  from the _other_ side of the family., but I don't think that is a clear enough statement to mean that he is lawful.


So if Redcloak is neutral evil, what family is he talking about and how are modrons from the other side of it compared to devils?

----------


## MultitudeMan

> And we know from the Cleric duel that Law _isn't_ one of his Domains.


I thought that Redcloak was just surprised that he was dueling another Lawful cleric. He cast Hold Monster in SOD, apparently (I don't have it), so unless he cast Substitute Domain that day, he's also Lawful.

----------


## ff7hero

> We know that Redcloak knows _hold monster_ isn't on the standard cleric spell list.
> 
> *Spoiler: Start of Darkness*
> Show
> 
> Redcloak casts _hold monster_ himself, at the circus manticore.





> I thought that Redcloak was just surprised that he was dueling another Lawful cleric. He cast Hold Monster in SOD, apparently (I don't have it), so unless he cast Substitute Domain that day, he's also Lawful.


Huh, my bad then. That scene feels a little weird under that interpretation, but it certainly seems like it must be the case.

Just out of curiosity, when was SoD published relative to that comic?

----------


## danielxcutter

I mean Redcloak using Substitute Domain does feel very well Redcloak.

----------


## ByzantiumBhuka

I think all this is irrelevant? After all, the quinton does explicitly say Greetings, Cleric of Law, which is the sort of thing a quinton would only say as a greeting to a cleric of law.

----------


## hamishspence

> I thought that Redcloak was just surprised that he was dueling another Lawful cleric. He cast Hold Monster in SOD, apparently (I don't have it), so unless he cast Substitute Domain that day, he's also Lawful.


Since the spell doesn't specifically say it overrides the standard rules for_ taking_ domains, doesn't that mean you still have to _be_ Lawful to, for example, "_swap_ the Destruction domain for the Law domain"?

----------


## b_jonas

InvisibleBison: I really don't know. There is certainly no one big happy family of evil (#668 5th), nor is Team Evil a family.




> After all, the quinton does explicitly say Greetings, Cleric of Law, which is the sort of thing a quinton would only say as a greeting to a cleric of law.


Hmm yes, I missed that.  That does sound like the Modron is not talking just about his Law domain but about his alignment.

----------


## hamishspence

It's normally impossible to use the Law domain without having a Lawful alignment. 

And a Law domain cleric will radiate a_ much_ more powerful Lawful _aura_ (for their level) than "A LE cleric of a NE god, with no Law domain" would.

----------


## danielxcutter

They do? Don't remember that.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Just out of curiosity, when was SoD published relative to that comic?


The first printing of _Start of Darkness_ was dated May 2007; #456 was posted on the 23rd of that month.





> It's normally impossible to use the Law domain without having a Lawful alignment. 
> 
> And a Law domain cleric will radiate a_ much_ more powerful Lawful _aura_ (for their level) than "A LE cleric of a NE god, with no Law domain" would.


In case anyone (else) needs a paraphrase: a lawful cleric of a nonlawful deity is not "a cleric of a lawful deity", so _detect law_ (whose description is like "just use the tables for _detect evil_") would show the about-one-fifth-strength aura of a "lawful creature".

This doesn't directly relate to the Law domain; however you can only choose an alignment domain if it matches your alignment and (by convention) deities only offer alignment domains that match their alignment; so having the Law domain almost certainly means you're both a lawful creature *and* a cleric of a lawful Deity (and the stronger aura would show up, which outside of edge cases will be the latter).

----------


## hamishspence

> This doesn't directly relate to the Law domain; however you can only choose an alignment domain if it matches your alignment and (by convention) deities only offer alignment domains that match their alignment; so having the Law domain almost certainly means you're both a lawful creature *and* a cleric of a lawful Deity (and the stronger aura would show up, which outside of edge cases will be the latter).


A cleric with the Law domain _and no deity at all_ will still radiate the powerful aura.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm



_Aura (Ex)
A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deitys alignment (see the detect evil spell for details). Clerics who dont worship a specific deity but choose the Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law domain have a similarly powerful aura of the corresponding alignment._



I would say that part of the _point_ of this line is that if there's a _mismatch between_ "domain" and "deity", "domain" takes precedence for aura purposes. 

So if a NE deity can _somehow_ offer the Law domain, or somehow offer the Chaos domain (Maglubiyet the NE goblin deity can offer the Chaos domain, for example), then the CE cleric who_ takes_ the Chaos domain gets the strong aura, just as the deityless cleric who takes that domain would.

----------


## Jasdoif

> A cleric with the Law domain _and no deity at all_ will still radiate the powerful aura.
> 
> https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm
> 
> 
> 
> _Aura (Ex)
> A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deitys alignment (see the detect evil spell for details). Clerics who dont worship a specific deity but choose the Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law domain have a similarly powerful aura of the corresponding alignment._
> 
> ...


I'll buy that the decision to allow clerics to worship concepts instead of deities could have happened late enough that the spell text wasn't reviewed, yes.

----------


## dancrilis

> This doesn't directly relate to the Law domain; however you can only choose an alignment domain if it matches your alignment and (by convention) deities only offer alignment domains that match their alignment; so having the Law domain almost certainly means you're both a lawful creature *and* a cleric of a lawful Deity (and the stronger aura would show up, which outside of edge cases will be the latter).


We know that in OOTS deities can grant domains for alignments they do not possess.

----------


## hamishspence

> I'll buy that the decision to allow clerics to worship concepts instead of deities could have happened late enough that the spell text wasn't reviewed, yes.


It's a pretty_ old_ concept in D&D. The Rules Cyclopedia, from 1991, which republished and compiled yet older material, said:

"A cleric is a human character who is dedicated to serving a great and worthy cause. This cause can be an Immortal being dedicated to a specific goal or attribute; sometimes the cleric is serving only his alignment, and has no interest in immortal beings."




> We know that in OOTS deities can grant domains for alignments they do not possess.


I think the Southern Pantheon is a good example - TN, yet offering the full range of domains.

----------


## Jasdoif

> We know that in OOTS deities can grant domains for alignments they do not possess.


That's why I said "by convention": there aren't any rules prohibiting it, so it's still possible; it's _common_ practice, but not _enforced_ practice.




> It's a pretty_ old_ concept in D&D. The Rules Cyclopedia, from 1991, which republished and compiled yet older material, said:
> 
> "A cleric is a human character who is dedicated to serving a great and worthy cause. This cause can be an Immortal being dedicated to a specific goal or attribute; sometimes the cleric is serving only his alignment, and has no interest in immortal beings."


I don't doubt it, but I also don't think being an old concept means it's automatically reflected in subsequent rules (D&D's attitude about sacred cows notwithstanding); otherwise we'd still have THAC0 rather than BAB.

----------


## hamishspence

3.0 and 3.5 both had text in the Cleric section of the PHB mentioning the option. I don't know about 2e and 1e but it wouldn't surprise me.

----------


## Gurgeh

So, what's the rationale behind 1148 being evidence of Minrah's alignment? Nothing she says or does in that strip makes a convincing argument for placing her anywhere in particular on the law/chaos axis. I think she _is_ a good fit for LG, but frankly the linked strip doesn't make the case at all.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> So, what's the rationale behind 1148 being evidence of Minrah's alignment? Nothing she says or does in that strip makes a convincing argument for placing her anywhere in particular on the law/chaos axis. I think she _is_ a good fit for LG, but frankly the linked strip doesn't make the case at all.


I also don't see how 1148 demonstrates anything about Minrah's alignment. And looking through the older threads, the only discussion of the issue I can find is someone asking the same question a few years ago.

----------


## danielxcutter

Id _personally_ put her Neutral Good but that is entirely a guess and nothing to do with actual proof. I think its safe to assume shes Good, at least, but not sure about anything else besides that.

----------


## Metastachydium

A question over in the Trivia thread got me thinking. Thor's Lightning seems to have a somatic component, namely a finger pointed at the target. Durkno, on the othe hand is shown doing the targeting with his hammer instead on at least one occasion. Could this mean he has Somatic Weaponry?

----------


## Xihirli

Redcloak cast 2 9ths in one day  Implosion and Gate. That would either put him above level 17 or mean one or the other is his Domain spell, right?

EDIT: Implosion is Destruction Domain. So he might or might not still have a 9th left today.

----------


## tyckspoon

> Redcloak cast 2 9ths in one day  Implosion and Gate. That would either put him above level 17 or mean one or the other is his Domain spell, right?
> 
> EDIT: Implosion is Destruction Domain. So he might or might not still have a 9th left today.


Cast one from a Domain slot, is in excess of level 17, or has a Wisdom of 28 or higher (sufficient to get a level 9 bonus slot.) Lots of ways to get an additional spell cast, generally needs other references or supporting cases to figure out specifically which one. And that's assuming you aren't even considering things like 'Well maybe the Red Cloak gives him extra domain slots' which may plausibly happen but generally have no evidence for or against unless Rich decides to make a direct mention of it in the comic.

(Given that we already know Redcloak has the Destruction domain, the interpretation that requires the fewest additional factors is 'Implosion was cast from Domain slot, Gate was his normal 9th level memorization, and Redcloak is most likely out of 9th level spells for the day.')

----------


## ff7hero

Speaking of RC's Domains, isn't Unholy Blight an Evil Domain exclusive? Or at least not on the stock Cleric list.

----------


## danielxcutter

I think there might be a domain or two that also gets it, but yes it's not on the default Cleric list. Substitute Domain _is_ a thing, though.

----------


## ff7hero

Doesn't Substitute Domain mean we can't make any assumptions about what RC's Domains are based on the spells we see him cast then?

----------


## mehs

I have a question about V's intelligence. It says they probably have a +4 headband because of being able to cast 4 level 6 spells at 11th level, except, how exactly does that make sense? The panel linked for that source is also them casting 2 7th level spells, which doesn't seem to be right also.


What I mean, is at 11th level, at base, they could cast 1 6th level spell, getting another for school specialization. From intelligence of 22, which is what the headband plus base 18 int seems to imply, they would get another 1 spell per day...

That adds up to 3 spells, where is the 4th coming from? If it isn't from a pearl of power, then V would need an int of 30. Does that mean V was level 12 at the time? Which is probably the much more reasonable answer than them having an additional 8 intelligence from somewhere. (level bonus (+1) (+1) at 4th and 8th, (+2) from a +6 headband rather than +4, and a book of int gain (+4) could explain that, but an increased level is also very viable.)

Edit: Reviewing the archives, I think I know what's going on. Firstly, the claim that they cast 4 level 6 spells at level 11 is just wrong. I read all between level 11 and 12, and the most they cast was two disintegrations. Disintegration, is a transmutation spell, so it can't be the specialization slot. Therefore V had a minimum *3* spell slots, 1 base, 1 specialization, 1 from int, which would match up with the claim of 22-24 int being made. So it was a typo, also referencing the incorrect page for that particular source.

Here is the correct link https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html

----------


## MultitudeMan

> Speaking of RC's Domains, isn't Unholy Blight an Evil Domain exclusive? Or at least not on the stock Cleric list.


When did Redcloak cast Unholy Blight?

----------


## ff7hero

> When did Redcloak cast Unholy Blight?


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html

During the "negotiation" with Durkon.

----------


## MultitudeMan

> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html
> 
> During the "negotiation" with Durkon.


OK, so that confirms he's definitely used Substitute Domain at some point, as he's used 3 different spells which are domain-slot-only for Clerics (Hold Monster, Disintegrate, Unholy Blight). I suppose it does at least confirm that The Dark One can offer the Evil, Law, and Destruction domains.




> I have a question about V's intelligence. It says they probably have a +4 headband because of being able to cast 4 level 6 spells at 11th level, except, how exactly does that make sense? The panel linked for that source is also them casting 2 7th level spells, which doesn't seem to be right also.
> 
> 
> What I mean, is at 11th level, at base, they could cast 1 6th level spell, getting another for school specialization. From intelligence of 22, which is what the headband plus base 18 int seems to imply, they would get another 1 spell per day...
> 
> That adds up to 3 spells, where is the 4th coming from? If it isn't from a pearl of power, then V would need an int of 30. Does that mean V was level 12 at the time? Which is probably the much more reasonable answer than them having an additional 8 intelligence from somewhere. (level bonus (+1) (+1) at 4th and 8th, (+2) from a +6 headband rather than +4, and a book of int gain (+4) could explain that, but an increased level is also very viable.)
> 
> Edit: Reviewing the archives, I think I know what's going on. Firstly, the claim that they cast 4 level 6 spells at level 11 is just wrong. I read all between level 11 and 12, and the most they cast was two disintegrations. Disintegration, is a transmutation spell, so it can't be the specialization slot. Therefore V had a minimum *3* spell slots, 1 base, 1 specialization, 1 from int, which would match up with the claim of 22-24 int being made. So it was a typo, also referencing the incorrect page for that particular source.
> 
> Here is the correct link https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html


I think you may be missing something here. In the last panel of #625, V casts Disintegrate at the imp, then casts it three more times in the next strip, but the error in the listing is that V was already level 13 by then, as demonstrated here, when V used Grasping Hand in the first panel, a 7th level spell.

----------


## Kurald Galain

Is it just me or has traffic to this thread gone down significantly since its current _title_?  :Small Amused: 

Added
 :Durkon:  Shield
 :Belkar:  Fire-starting tools; unlisted Haley's bag of holding
 :Haley:  Bounty paper
 :Elan:  Bleedingham papers (edit: oh right, he lost them in #793), sash outfit, and changed "no armor" to "no armor worn"
 :Xykon:  Mind control spell (used on MITD), rock drawing spell

----------


## danielxcutter

To be entirely honest, there _havent_ been a lot of relevations since.

----------


## Kurald Galain

> To be entirely honest, there _havent_ been a lot of relevations since.


That's true. But we could consider "CALG XX - The Most Important Thread In The Universe" and see if participation skyrockets  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Laurentio III

> That's true. But we could consider "CALG XX - The Most Important Thread In The Universe" and see if participation skyrockets


"We have cookies. And cats."

----------


## Peelee

> That's true. But we could consider "CALG XX - The Most Important Thread In The Universe" and see if participation skyrockets


Look at it this way -  if traffic dies down to the point that nobodu posts for a 45 day stretch, you can try that theory out significantly sooner.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Jasdoif

> Is it just me or has traffic to this thread gone down significantly since its current _title_?





> To be entirely honest, there _havent_ been a lot of relevations since.


Look at it this way: you've gotten nearly two-and-a-half times as many posts as the Index of the Giant's Comments has in the same timeframe, and we've had a baker's dozen revelations.  So I ask, which kind of stuff would you guess is closer to "nobody cares about"?

----------


## Metastachydium

> "We have cookies. And cats."


Please tell me the cats are a lie! Because if they aren't, I'm so leaving.

----------


## Ephemera

> Is it just me or has traffic to this thread gone down significantly since its current _title_?


I have had exactly that thought many times. If you want to take this overly seriously (and, hello, what thread is this again? of course I do!), I think the mechanism here is that Rich has taken another step towards even less Dnd mechanics (and yes, maybe that should read "fewer") in the comic, then he noticed he'd done so, made a joke about it, and we picked up the joke as our thread title. So it's more that the thread title and the reduced opportunity to speculate about stats share a common cause, and less that one caused the other.

I suppose, in any case, given that the pace of introduction of new characters hasn't increased, that even if there were actual statblocks, you would expect that, over time, the rate at which we obtain new useful information ought to decrease as we would have already plucked all the low-hanging fruit of easily deduced stats...

Clearly, it's time for an extended meta-discussion of how this thread works or what we're doing here and why. Or maybe a renewed argument about Xyklon's level, Tarquin's arrow snatch, or the rules behind Familicide...

----------


## Laurentio III

> Clearly, it's time for an extended meta-discussion of how this thread works or what we're doing here and why. Or maybe a renewed argument about Xyklon's level, Tarquin's arrow snatch, or the rules behind Familicide...


We could enjoy some time by block stating users' avatars. Metastachydium is apparently charismatic to me, but not much dexterous.

----------


## Peelee

> We could enjoy some time by block stating users' avatars. Metastachydium is apparently charismatic to me, but not much dexterous.


I can't say why but it seems like you would have high Con.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Or maybe a renewed argument about Xyklon's level


I'm not sure Xyklon has (had?) class levels at all; I'm, in fact, ready to posit that most of that meat on him was likely a pile of outsider RHD instead.




> We could enjoy some time by block stating users' avatars. Metastachydium is apparently charismatic to me, but not much dexterous.


Hey! I'm plenty dexterous! Come back tomorrow (or the day after) and you'll see that I've, um, slightly rotated this leaf along its longitudinal axis?




> I can't say why but it seems like you would have high Con.


And as for Mr. Lee himself, if the ability to cast Raise Thread is anything to go by, he's likely at least a mature adult with 25+ RHD and a pretty bad touch AC.

----------


## Peelee

> bad touch AC.


Do I at least have an Awakened Bloodhound Gang?

----------


## Metastachydium

> Do I at least have an Awakened Bloodhound Gang?


_[Identifies reference.]_
_[Adds "terrible taste in music" to the statblock.]_

----------


## dancrilis

> * Vaarsuvius*
> *Feats:* nor Still Spell.


Would 178 panel 1 act as a better reference for this - 161 merely shows they have none prepared where 178 indicates they cannot prepare spells without somantic components.

----------


## Peelee

> _[Identifies reference.]_
> _[Adds "terrible taste in music" to the statblock.]_


Sample size is important. :Small Wink:

----------


## Jasdoif

> Originally Posted by Metastachydium
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Peelee
> ...


Wait, you're not talking about the segment on _3-2-1 Contact_?

----------


## dancrilis

> *Redcloak*, pseudonym (SOD)
> _Skills:_ Diplomacy (SOD), Knowledge: Chemistry, Knowledge: Nature (SOD), Speak Language: Goblin (racial), Spellcraft; no Draconic (NCPB).


Should Redcloak have 'Knowledge: The planes' added.

Rational being that he knows at least some of the spell-like abilities of a Quinton (panel 6) along side some other information (such as modron contracts, cognitive abilities etc).

----------


## danielxcutter

He also knows about periodic elementals, elementals are identified with that Knowledge right?

----------


## dancrilis

> He also knows about periodic elementals, elementals are identified with that Knowledge right?


They are, but he has already been given 'Knowledge: Chemistry' to cover elementals.

Edit: A justification could be made that he only has Knowledge: Chemistry because he said he got passing grades, and didn't so much claim to know the abilities of the creatures he summoned.

----------


## Peelee

Given that Knowledge (The Planes) is a standard knowledge skill while Chemistry is not, I would be in favor of replacing Chem with Planes.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Given that Knowledge (The Planes) is a standard knowledge skill while Chemistry is not, I would be in favor of replacong Chem with Planes.


I also support this change.

----------


## danielxcutter

Same here.

----------


## dancrilis

> Given that Knowledge (The Planes) is a standard knowledge skill while Chemistry is not, I would be in favor of replacong Chem with Planes.


I have no issue with that - or with Chemistry staying.

I think Knowledge: The planes should be added regardless.

----------


## b_jonas

> Given that Knowledge (The Planes) is a standard knowledge skill while Chemistry is not, I would be in favor of replacing Chem with Planes.


As long as you agree that I can play the clavichord, because I'm a decent typist and both of those use the Perform: Keyboard instruments skill check, as that's a standard skill while Perform: Typewriter isn't.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> As long as you agree that I can play the clavichord, because I'm a decent typist and both of those use the Perform: Keyboard instruments skill check, as that's a standard skill while Perform: Typewriter isn't.


Typing isn't a form of performance.

----------


## Peelee

> As long as you agree that I can play the clavichord, because I'm a decent typist and both of those use the Perform: Keyboard instruments skill check, as that's a standard skill while Perform: Typewriter isn't.


As long as you agree that you can't see the sun

Dungeons and Dragons covers game mechanics. Not real-life parities.

----------


## Metastachydium

Also, he does know the exact strength of an earth elemental relative to that of a titanium elemental. That's not exactly chemistry, is it, now?

----------


## b_jonas

> As long as you agree that you can't see the sun


Let me look out my window to check.

I can Spot some big trees obscuring most of my view, grass, paved paths from the sidewalk to the gate, a trashcan, streetlights, three parked cars, the tobbaco store, and clouds on the night sky.  No sun, checks out.  I'll try again when I grow old, in case the extra point of wisdom helps.




> Typing isn't a form of performance.


What else would it be?  Craft?  Profession?  Speak language?  It feels like Perform to me when I do it.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> What else would it be?  Craft?  Profession?  Speak language?  It feels like Perform to me when I do it.


D&D does not, as far as I know, have typewriters or keyboards, so the RAW answer would be that typing is not represented by any skill. In a setting where keyboards of some sort did exist, I would put it under Profession. I don't think typing is "a form of artistic expression", as the rules describe the Perform skill, and I certainly don't think anyone has ever paid to watch someone type for entertainment.

----------


## Ephemera

No number of monkeys playing no number of clavichords (or any other keyboard instrument) will ever produce the complete works of Shakespeare. Therefore Perform: Keyboard and Typing are different skills.

They will, however, eventually play a clavichord rendition of Taylor Swift's catalog (or that of the Grateful Dead if they're undead monkeys).

----------


## Peelee

> No number of monkeys playing no number of clavichords (or any other keyboard instrument) will ever produce the complete works of Shakespeare. Therefore Perform: Keyboard and Typing are different skills.
> 
> They will, however, eventually play a clavichord rendition of Taylor Swift's catalog (or that of the Grateful Dead if they're undead monkeys).


This is a fundamental misunderstanding of infinity. "Infinite" does not mean "all". There are an infinite amount of numbers in between 1 and 2. None of those will ever be 4.

I'll never forgive the person who came up with it.

----------


## dancrilis

> ...and I certainly don't think anyone has ever paid to watch someone type for entertainment.


I am assuming you are unfamiliar with the works of Tim Youd.

I wasn't either until I looking it up, but yes some people will pay to watch or own something someone else typed - to be clear by typed I mean not original work but something the artist has literally typed word for word from the source material.

----------


## Peelee

> Let me look out my window to check.
> 
> I can Spot some big trees obscuring most of my view, grass, paved paths from the sidewalk to the gate, a trashcan, streetlights, three parked cars, the tobbaco store, and clouds on the night sky.  No sun, checks out.  I'll try again when I grow old, in case the extra point of wisdom helps.


Ok, don't know why you put all that irrelevant stuff in, because that doesn't address the point I was making, which you certainly know. Are you capable of seeing the sun? 

If yes, then shocker, D&D rules are made for small scale combat and role play and not for everyday life imitation. There is no typing skill. You do not have skill ranks or levels. It is not equatable like you are trying to make it be.

----------


## Ephemera

> This is a fundamental misunderstanding of infinity. "Infinite" does not mean "all". There are an infinite amount of numbers in between 1 and 2. None of those will ever be 4.
> 
> I'll never forgive the person who came up with it.


I mean, that's true, but I'm not sure it's relevant to this example. If you assume that these are quantum monkeys who have an equal chance of hitting each key (which I think is the implication), then I think it's possible one of them eventually types out Shakespeare. Whether it's merely possible or inevitable verges on being more or a philosophical question than a mathematical one. But most of the ways to generate bounded number sets actually require having more order in the outputs, not less, so I think that with infinite random monkeys and infinite time, you probably do actually get all possible sequences coming up?

----------


## Peelee

> I mean, that's true, but I'm not sure it's relevant to this example. If you assume that these are quantum monkeys who have an equal chance of hitting each key (which I think is the implication), then I think it's possible one of them eventually types out Shakespeare. Whether it's merely possible or inevitable verges on being more or a philosophical question than a mathematical one. But most of the ways to generate bounded number sets actually require having more order in the outputs, not less, so I think that with infinite random monkeys and infinite time, you probably do actually get all possible sequences coming up?


That last sentence is the kicker. Infinite monkeys and infinite time means infinite sequences, but not _all_ sequences. They could all have an infinite amount of sequences of hitting only the letters GHTB, for example.

----------


## Sir_Norbert

> That last sentence is the kicker. Infinite monkeys and infinite time means infinite sequences, but not _all_ sequences. They could all have an infinite amount of sequences of hitting only the letters GHTB, for example.


That does not refute the infinite monkey theorem, since the theorem doesn't make any claim about "all possible sequences", only that the probability of the monkey with infinite time typing any particular finite sequence is 1.

Sure, the monkey _could_ hit only GHTB... for ever; but the probability of it doing this is (4/n)^k, where _n_ is the number of keys on the typewriter, _k_ is the number of characters in the sequence. This tends to 0 as _k_ becomes infinite.

Similarly, the probability that the monkey's first _k_ keypresses are _not_ the Complete Works of Shakespeare can be precisely calculated, if we know how many keys are on the typerwriter and how many characters the Complete Works contain. Call this probability _p_; _p_ is extremely close to 1 but less than 1 by a specific finite amount. Therefore, the probability that the monkey _never_ types the Complete Works is of the form p^k, which tends to 0.

----------


## Peelee

> That does not refute the infinite monkey theorem, since the theorem doesn't make any claim about "all possible sequences", only that the probability of the monkey with infinite time typing any particular finite sequence is 1.


Sure, assuming the monkey isn't actually a monkey.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Sure, assuming the monkey isn't actually a monkey.


I do believe "monkey" is a metaphor here, yes.  Presumably "infinite random character sequence generator theorem" was insufficiently pithy.

----------


## halfeye

What annoys me about the infinite monkeys and Shakespear thing is the number of copies of the complete works of Shakespear there would be that were off by one letter (n ~= number of letters in the complete works of Shakespear), and the number of copies of the complete works of Shakespear that would be off by two letters (n ~= (number of letters in the complete works of Shakespear) squared), etc. Never mind the complete works (and multitudinous almost complete works) of Lewis Carroll, Dickens, Bronte, Tolkein etc. that would also appear.

----------


## Doug Lampert

> What annoys me about the infinite monkeys and Shakespear thing is the number of copies of the complete works of Shakespear there would be that were off by one letter (n ~= number of letters in the complete works of Shakespear), and the number of copies of the complete works of Shakespear that would be off by two letters (n ~= (number of letters in the complete works of Shakespear) squared), etc. Never mind the complete works (and multitudinous almost complete works) of Lewis Carroll, Dickens, Bronte, Tolkein etc. that would also appear.


Actually, per correct copy, there'd be approximately number of symbols used times number of distinct symbols used minus 1 copies that were off by one character.

Based on the number of words, there are probably well over 5,000,000 symbols in Shakespeare's complete works. Let's go low and figure only 5,000,000. (There are 884,647 words in the complete works according to the Folger Library, literary works typically average over 6 characters per word.)

If we assume 26 lower case, 26 upper case, and a minimum of 8 other symbols (.,;:" !?), that gives a minimum of 50 symbols used.

If we assume random choice and that we actually have infinite monkeys and enough time for a monkey to be likely to produce the correct number of characters even once, then the monkeys will produce an INFINITE number of copies of the complete works of Shakespeare. (You don't need infinite time.)

But on average you will need to search 50^(5,000,000) sequences to find even one correct copy of the complete works. This will take a while unless you have an infinite number of computers doing the search, not to mention the minor problems of needing infinite space and infinite mass-energy to store all those copies while someone searches them.

You can do slightly better by biasing the random character generator (aka monkeys) to hit the space bar more often than other characters, but it's still gonna be a very very very large number of books of gibberish for everything that's even vaguely close to the complete works.

----------


## Laurentio III

To clarify, an "infinite number of monkeys with a typewriter" is a bad representation because monkeys would tend to have similar patterns, even in infinite numbers.
Then they would produce an infinite number of extremely varied permutations, but not ALL permutations.

----------


## Peelee

> To clarify, an "infinite number of monkeys with a typewriter" is a bad representation because monkeys would tend to have similar patterns, even in infinite numbers.
> Then they would produce an infinite number of extremely varied permutations, but not ALL permutations.


That's what I meant, yeah. Metaphirizing it to monkeys just gets the typewriters jammed with poop. Metaphorically.

----------


## Laurentio III

For fun, this it a random text generated by an Ai with keywords: *Xykon evil conquer*

_"I have resolved to take the throne of the Necrons from Xykon once I am strong enough. I will return you to your former battle stations. Then we will discover what evil has been buried deep under the sands."

May the gods of darkness be with you.

The Xykon Cry of Fear-Grim

"You are taking his name. He was the one who made the prophecy. And now I am going to end it. I will smash his head into the sand."

Quarrel's footsteps trailed behind Xykon's final words. And there he was, a twisted nightmare from ancient times, haunting Quarrel's dreams. Xykon stood in his host's home, a ferocious, bearded man with eyes of fiery red, and a sword far too long for his hands. His presence was as unnatural as it was haunting. Xykon ordered Quarrel to attack Quarrel's new host, the evil wizard Xykon. Xykon knew this would be the first step in creating the Dark Xykon, and would make Quarrel evil himself. Xykon considered evil as evil, and planned to destroy any evil who was not evil, and to conquer the world with the power of the Dark Xykon. Xykon would always be the ruler of all the evils of the world, conqueror of evil, conqueror of everything evil."_

The problem with recreating art with random generators is that, even when you take out senseless mess of random letters and work with correct words and sentences, you still get mostly garbage.

*Spoiler: Link to the generator*
Show

https://app.inferkit.com/demo

----------


## halfeye

> For fun, this it a random text generated by an Ai with keywords: *Xykon evil conquer*
> 
> _"I have resolved to take the throne of the Necrons from Xykon once I am strong enough. I will return you to your former battle stations. Then we will discover what evil has been buried deep under the sands."
> 
> May the gods of darkness be with you.
> 
> The Xykon Cry of Fear-Grim
> 
> "You are taking his name. He was the one who made the prophecy. And now I am going to end it. I will smash his head into the sand."
> ...


That's trying not to be random. It's entirely different from the Shakespear trope. The Shakespear thing would work with digits of the expansion of Pi, it's not about how close you can get to Shakespear from trying to write Shakespear.

----------


## b_jonas

Oona must be making clear that these are _not_ real monkeys! This is word picture, for making understanding! No trying to go to money cage! _They are not real!!!_

----------


## Laurentio III

> That's trying not to be random. It's entirely different from the Shakespear trope. The Shakespear thing would work with digits of the expansion of Pi, it's not about how close you can get to Shakespear from trying to write Shakespear.


There are setting, you can make it much more random. I tried, it became very dadaist. The difference between an AI and infinite monkeys is that you still get "Monster clay furnicates red" but you don't get "aweo pcmiqronyc gseulx, oà". Let's be honest, you don't need the second one.
The point essentially is: the infinite monkey image is wrong and an artifact of a pre-AI era.

----------


## Ephemera

> There are setting, you can make it much more random. I tried, it became very dadaist. The difference between an AI and infinite monkeys is that you still get "Monster clay furnicates red" but you don't get "aweo pcmiqronyc gseulx, oà". Let's be honest, you don't need the second one.
> The point essentially is: the infinite monkey image is wrong and an artifact of a pre-AI era.


Even at the most random, an AI text generator is still doing some processing. If you wrote it so that it picked words at random from the dictionary, then it would, indeed, in theory eventually generate the complete works of Shakespeare if you could run it for an infinite time period, and if it instead generated random characters, you would have a modern interpretation of the intent of the monkey idea. That doesn't make it "wrong" or "an artifact." 

As I said above, whether this actually "works" or just generates an infinite number of other sequences is more of a philosophical question than a mathematical one. If you accept that the monkeys are random character generators, then the chances of any given combination of characters emerging will converge towards 1 as the number of characters generated goes towards infinity. That's just basic math for any probability that is larger than zero, so it really just depends on what the nature of infinity is and whether the chances of generating the complete works of Shakespeare are actually zero or just incredibly, incredibly small, and the math would seem to support the idea that you would eventually get that (or any other) result. 

Decent writeup here: https://www.czep.net/weblog/typemonkey.html. Note, however, that all of his simplifying assumptions make it easier to get the right results, so the estimate of the odds might be wildly off...but if you substitute a computer program that randomly outputs characters, then the number of seconds calculated there will be the number of cycles it will take, on average.

You're probably (although I don't think anyone could say for certain) correct that the AI as currently written will never generate Shakespeare's complete works, but that's precisely because it's not random, and the point of the original thought experiment is to demonstrate how randomness works, and the difference between vanishingly unlikely and impossible.

----------


## Laurentio III

> Even at the most random, an AI text generator is still doing some processing. If you wrote it so that it picked words at random from the dictionary, then it would, indeed, in theory eventually generate the complete works of Shakespeare if you could run it for an infinite time period, and if it instead generated random characters, you would have a modern interpretation of the intent of the monkey idea. *That doesn't make it "wrong" or "an artifact.*" 
> 
> As I said above, whether this actually "works" or just generates an infinite number of other sequences is more of a philosophical question than a mathematical one. *If you accept that the monkeys are random character generators*, then the chances of any given combination of characters emerging will converge towards 1 as the number of characters generated goes towards infinity. That's just basic math for any probability that is larger than zero, so it really just depends on what the nature of infinity is and whether the chances of generating the complete works of Shakespeare are actually zero or just incredibly, incredibly small, and the math would seem to support the idea that you would eventually get that (or any other) result.


(Enfasy mine)
You first misunderstood what I wrote, that wrote what I wrote with different words.
It's fine, the end goal is to understand. As long as we agree or politely disagree, it's a win.

Besides, what I said is that I don't consider "infinite monkeys" as a reliable, complete random characted generator. As monkeys have a generic monkeysh pattern when using a typewrites, they would create an infinite number of books, with a potentially infinite number of perfectly identical copies, while some potential book wouldn't ever exist.
An AI programmed to systematically write every combination of characters would, instead create every existing book and more.

"Typing monkeys" is an artifact in my opinion. It was a good approssimation when AIs were not a thing, ma we should stop using it.

----------


## RMS Oceanic

This may be semi joking but 1268 gives a few skills to some characters

Durkon: Craft (Baskets)
Belkar: Craft (Soap)
O-Chul: Profession (Beekeeper)

Not sure where Crocheting would sit. Or Astronomy

----------


## Kurald Galain

Looks like today's comic provides the next thread title, too  :Small Tongue:

----------


## 137beth

Knowledge: Astronomy?

----------


## Yanisa

> Knowledge: Astronomy?


3.5 doesn't have a knowledge astronomy. From Complete Arcana we do have Profession (astrologer).

Basket Weaving is noted in the Player's Handbook as a craft.

Crochet is not mentioned as a skill anywhere. I can find tailor, which is profession, but crochet feels more a craft. Not an official skill.

Blowing smoke rings also not a official skill. Feels like a preform, but preform is mostly instrument and acting. Not an official skill.

Soap making is mentioned in the Dungeon Master 2 guide as a Craftsman Specialty. Which is an chapter about rolling random professions for NPCs and city building, but is literally called a craft. Not an official skill.

Beekeeping isn't mentioned as a separate skills, but is generally governed by Handle Animal. However the specific mention of "experienced" could mean an ability, feat or skills with a higher bonus than other animals. But that could also be fluff. Tentatively I would agree with Handle Animal if others agree.

So sadly from a strict RAW perspective we cannot add a lot. But we do got a chance to list Craft (Basketweaving).  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Joerg

> Looks like today's comic provides the next thread title, too


We're really making progress?
I don't see it listed here? 
I struggle to imagine how that might be relevant?
I don't think we should take anything for granted?
We were hoping for something more useful? 
We should never discuss any of it ever again?

----------


## Ionathus

Ranked from favorite to least favorite for me  :Small Cool: 

1. We were hoping for something more useful
2. I struggle to imagine how that might be relevant
3. I don't think we should take anything for granted
4. We should never discuss any of it ever again
5. I don't see it listed here
6. We're really making progress

----------


## Peelee

> Looks like today's comic provides the next thread title, too


And here I was hoping for "We are the infinite monkeys".

----------


## Xihirli

> We're really making progress?
> I don't see it listed here? 
> I struggle to imagine how that might be relevant?
> I don't think we should take anything for granted?
> We were hoping for something more useful? 
> We should never discuss any of it ever again?


I was thinking "No Skill Point," the title of the strip.

----------


## Laurentio III

> 4. We should never discuss any of it ever again


 :Durkon: "Like the fortress of Xykon in the Astral Plane I heard about before."
 :Roy:  "The what of who where how when!?"

----------


## Smoutwortel

> Let me look out my window to check.
> 
> I can Spot some big trees obscuring most of my view, grass, paved paths from the sidewalk to the gate, a trashcan, streetlights, three parked cars, the tobbaco store, and clouds on the night sky.  No sun, checks out.  I'll try again when I grow old, in case the extra point of wisdom helps.
> 
> What else would it be?  Craft?  Profession?  Speak language?  It feels like Perform to me when I do it.


Craft or speak language.
Craft, because the more advanced versions of writing tend to be crafts.
Speak language, because your typing skills are keyboard dependend.

----------


## MultitudeMan

I feel like the Giant was specifically trying to wind up the contributors to this thread in the first panel of the latest strip (this one, for the benefit of the people of the future).

----------


## 137beth

Well, typing it on a forum isn't literally saying it out loud, so we got around O-Chul!

----------


## danielxcutter

I mean, hasn't the Giant been poking fun at us for at least a book or two?

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> I mean, hasn't the Giant been poking fun at us for at least a book or two?


Quick kids: Figure out which monster has Skill Focus (Self-Awareness) as a bonus feat!

----------


## b_jonas

> 3.5 doesn't have a knowledge astronomy.


Normally I'd think astronomy is under Knowledge (nature), since the rules say that covers seasons and cycles.  However, #1099 1st panel makes me unsure, maybe in the OoTS world it's Knowledge (religion) that covers astronomy.

----------


## danielxcutter

Or that one might be a Cloistered Cleric.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> This may be semi joking but 1268 gives a few skills to some characters


No, it doesn't. The various capabilities the characters list are things that aren't represented by their skills or feats, since Roy asked about them after the group assembled "a complete record of all [their] skills, feats, spells known and magic items possessed". If, eg, Durkon had ranks in Craft (basketweaving), they would have included that in the record and he wouldn't have felt a need to mention it when they were listing things they hadn't already recorded.

----------


## Laurentio III

> No, it doesn't. The various capabilities the characters list are things that aren't represented by their skills or feats, since Roy asked about them after the group assembled "a complete record of all [their] skills, feats, spells known and magic items possessed". If, eg, Durkon had ranks in Craft (basketweaving), they would have included that in the record and he wouldn't have felt a need to mention it when they were listing things they hadn't already recorded.


I agree.
"I took a course", "You studied it six years" or "I know crochet" means not much. Making smoke rings is not even a skill.
Belkar claiming to being a soapmaker? Well, it depends on the end result. Every character can make a pointy stick, but "Fletcher" is a profession.
As granpa Greenhilt says, "It don't mean a thing if you ain't paid for that swing". The title of the page is *"No Skill Point"*, so until proved the opposite, it's just flavour talking.

"I'm an experienced beekeeper", on the other hand, is probably a skill. Apparently warriors takes Animal Husbandry very seriously.

----------


## Doug Lampert

> No, it doesn't. The various capabilities the characters list are things that aren't represented by their skills or feats, since Roy asked about them after the group assembled "a complete record of all [their] skills, feats, spells known and magic items possessed". If, eg, Durkon had ranks in Craft (basketweaving), they would have included that in the record and he wouldn't have felt a need to mention it when they were listing things they hadn't already recorded.


I'm inclined to agree, they've got their character sheets in front of them, this is a self-aware stick figure parody with the rulebooks available as in-game items and knowing that there are PCs and NPCs and people able to find prestige classes in old third-party source books they find in the discount bin.

Those are their character sheets. The stuff they're discussing now is their backstories. Anything they get from those is just a circumstance bonus.

----------


## Reboot

> Normally I'd think astronomy is under Knowledge (nature), since the rules say that covers seasons and cycles.  However, #1099 1st panel makes me unsure, maybe in the OoTS world it's Knowledge (religion) that covers astronomy.


Nah, it's probably a specialism available to clerics of Thor or something, like firestarting could be for clerics of Loki, but that doesn't make it an actual (religion)-tagged thing. Astrology/horoscopes, as she offers to do, OTOH...

----------


## Hecuba

> Looks like today's comic provides the next thread title, too


I find much of this surprising and informative.
Profession: Beekeeper
Knowledge Astronomy does not exist

----------


## b_jonas

> Nah, it's probably a specialism available to clerics of Thor or something,


I think it's not specific to Thor.  It's the Animal domain, available to any cleric, which makes it easier for them to learn Knowledge (nature).  I know it sounds stupid at first, but consider it for a moment. 

Tinna uses Astronomy to make horoscopes, which are based on the twelve signs of the zodiac.  We know that the twelve signs of the zodiac is used for astrology at least on the southern continent, so I expect it's used in the North too, only perhaps they're using a third kind of zodiac (OotS south uses the real world Chinese zodiac, OotS west the western zodiac).  Most of the twelve signs of the zodiac are animals and vermin, in both Chinese and western astrology.  Of the Chinese zodiac, all but Dragon are based on animals.  Of the western zodiac, Aires, Taurus, Leo, Capricornus, Pisces are based on animals, Cancer and Scorpio on vermin, making at least seven of the twelve signs.  So Knowledge (nature) and a domain named Animals sounds to me like the most relevant Knowledge skills for making zodiacs.  That's in addition to the description of the skill straight up mentioning seasons and cycles.

----------


## danielxcutter

Domains are usually only for clerics who worship a god with them(or an ideal relevant to them, for non-deity worshipers). Thor would likely not be able to grant the Animal domain.

----------


## b_jonas

> Thor would likely not be able to grant the Animal domain.


I don't see why not.  Thor married Freya who constantly has bluebirds singing around her, so I don't think he hates animals. And look at #1232 for how he explains why the goblins got the weaker end of the creation. we were making an ecosystem. Things consume other things and get stronger, that's how it works.  Plants absorb sunlight, animals eat plants, people eat animals, other people defeat them and gain levels. Then the worms eat everyone.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> I don't see why not.  Thor married Freya who constantly has bluebirds singing around her, so I don't think he hates animals. [url=https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1232.html]And look at #1232 for how he explains why the goblins got the weaker end of the creation. we were making an ecosystem. Things consume other things and get stronger, that's how it works.  Plants absorb sunlight, animals eat plants, people eat animals, other people defeat them and gain levels. Then the worms eat everyone.


There's a big difference between a god thinking animals are worthwhile and a god being a god of animals. Thor is clearly the former, while the latter is what you'd expect from a god that grants the Animal domain.

----------


## Peelee

> I don't see why not.  Thor married Freya who constantly has bluebirds singing around her, so I don't think he hates animals.


Granting the animal domain because "he doesn't hate animals" is probably the weakest argument I've ever seen. Or at the very least in the top 3.

----------


## b_jonas

> Granting the animal domain because "he doesn't hate animals" is probably the weakest argument I've ever seen.


No, that's not the argument.  #1099 first panel says that the church of Thor pays Tinna the cleric for working in astrology, and that's the only dwarven organization where Tinna could find such employment.  So it's reasonable that Thor helps this in some way reflected in the game mechanics.  I argue that the Animal domain should be what Thor gives to help this.  Danielxcutter countered that that's impossible because Thor doesn't grant the Animal domain, but I don't see why he thinks that.

----------


## Laurentio III

Based on manuals, Thor Domains are chaos, good, protection, strength, war, and weather.

----------


## Peelee

> No, that's not the argument.  #1099 first panel says that the church of Thor pays Tinna the cleric for working in astrology, and that's the only dwarven organization where Tinna could find such employment.  So it's reasonable that Thor helps this in some way reflected in the game mechanics.  I argue that the Animal domain should be what Thor gives to help this.  Danielxcutter countered that that's impossible because Thor doesn't grant the Animal domain, but I don't see why he thinks that.


First, it does not say that's the only Dwarven organization that pays for looking at the sky. Second, it's hardly surprising that the northern god of weather would have clergy who would be interested in the sky.

I would imagine there's no reason to think Thor grants the animal domain becuase nothing indicates that, except that he doesn't hate animals (and other claims that I think have similar validity).

----------


## Tzardok

> I think it's not specific to Thor.  It's the Animal domain, available to any cleric, which makes it easier for them to learn Knowledge (nature).  I know it sounds stupid at first, but consider it for a moment. 
> 
> Tinna uses Astronomy to make horoscopes, which are based on the twelve signs of the zodiac.  We know that the twelve signs of the zodiac is used for astrology at least on the southern continent, so I expect it's used in the North too, only perhaps they're using a third kind of zodiac (OotS south uses the real world Chinese zodiac, OotS west the western zodiac).  Most of the twelve signs of the zodiac are animals and vermin, in both Chinese and western astrology.  Of the Chinese zodiac, all but Dragon are based on animals.  Of the western zodiac, Aires, Taurus, Leo, Capricornus, Pisces are based on animals, Cancer and Scorpio on vermin, making at least seven of the twelve signs.  So Knowledge (nature) and a domain named Animals sounds to me like the most relevant Knowledge skills for making zodiacs.  That's in addition to the description of the skill straight up mentioning seasons and cycles.


I think I remember something about a Norse zodiac whose signs are trees. Unlikely for dwarves, but possible.

----------


## dancrilis

> Thor married Freya who constantly has bluebirds singing around her, so I don't think he hates animals. [url=https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1232.html]


I am dubious as to if Thor and Freya are married.




> #1099 first panel says that the church of Thor pays Tinna the cleric for working in astrology, and that's the only dwarven organization where Tinna could find such employment.  So it's reasonable that Thor helps this in some way reflected in the game mechanics.  I argue that the Animal domain should be what Thor gives to help this.


So your arguement is that church of Thor is into astrology and therefore Thor may have the Animal domain - perhaps there is some connection between animals and astrology that I am missing but outside of providing the Knowledge (Nature) skill I am not seeing any (if is we are looking at the domains the Knowledge domain seems a better fit for stuff that might normally be considered astrology stuff).




> I think I remember something about a Norse zodiac whose signs are trees. Unlikely for dwarves, but possible.


The Plant domain also gives Knowledge (Nature) so probably as much justification for Thor granting it as the Animal domain.

----------


## Metastachydium

> The Plant domain also gives Knowledge (Nature) so probably as much justification for Thor granting it as the Animal domain.


Thor doesn't actually hate trees, therefore I hereby posit that he has the Plant domain rather than the Animal domain and this is a fact!

----------


## mjp1050

Regarding V's prior experience with astronomy, that might just be poking fun at 5e's backgrounds. 

Or at least that's how it read to me, as I play a lot of 5e and V's comment sounded very familiar.

----------


## danielxcutter

Also, unlike more "generic" domains like alignment-based ones, the Animal domain usually happens to be granted by gods whose portfolio is explicitly centered around animals or nature or something. And before you try to nitpick that, I mean in the "obvious druid-esque nature deity" sense for the latter.

I'd put decent money on it being in Fenrir's options, but I think there's also a Bestial domain or something...?

----------


## Laurentio III

> Thor doesn't actually hate trees, therefore I hereby posit that he has the Plant domain rather than the Animal domain and this is a fact!


It doesn't means that Thor can't hate you, specifically. Beware the lighting.

----------


## Metastachydium

> It doesn't means that Thor can't hate you, specifically. Beware the lighting.


_[Saddens.]_




> Also, unlike more "generic" domains like alignment-based ones, the Animal domain usually happens to be granted by gods whose portfolio is explicitly centered around animals or nature or something. And before you try to nitpick that, I mean in the "obvious druid-esque nature deity" sense for the latter.
> 
> I'd put decent money on it being in Fenrir's options, but I think there's also a Bestial domain or something...?


Skadi is an even safer bet and Sif might have it (or Plant (or both)) too.

----------


## danielxcutter

> Skadi is an even safer bet and Sif might have it (or Plant (or both)) too.


Yeah but those are the obvious ones. Fenrir is a marginally less obvious one that still illustrates my point.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Originally Posted by b_jonas
> 
> 
> No, that's not the argument.  #1099 first panel says that the church of Thor pays Tinna the cleric for working in astrology, and that's the only dwarven organization where Tinna could find such employment.  So it's reasonable that Thor helps this in some way reflected in the game mechanics.
> 
> 
> First, it does not say that's the only Dwarven organization that pays for looking at the sky.


Even if it did...why couldn't that mean she provides a bonus the church of Thor wants but has difficulty coming up with itself?  Something as simple as starting as an Expert with the appropriate choice of class skills, and devotion to spending skill points cross-class with her subsequent cleric levels, would suffice.




> Beware the lighting.


Is it ultraviolet or something?

----------


## Psyren

I'd like to propose that Belkar has at least some ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering) given his savvy at using Serini's monsters to troll Durkon. No idea how many though.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> I'd like to propose that Belkar has at least some ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering) given his savvy at using Serini's monsters to troll Durkon. No idea how many though.


Remembering a bit of information about a mimic is a DC 17. Belkar might have just rolled well, and only requires a single skill point (or half a rank) to make the check in the first place.

----------


## Metastachydium

> [*]Races of the Dragon (winged kobold)





> *Kilkil*
> Lawful Neutral (forum), Winged Kobold male, level 6-10 (paralyzed by Holy Word).
> Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
> Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
> Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
> _Items:_ Glasses.
> _Skills:_ Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
> _Abilities:_ Kobold racial abilities, Flight.


Okay, so I've just noticed this. Apparently, the thread assumes that Kilkil has Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings from _RotD_. However, he demonstartes the capability of prolonged flight repeatedly which is only possible if 1.) he has the single highest CON score in the whole Stickverse or 2.) he has 12 HD or more. Given the effect of the Holy Word on him, on the other hand, he can't have more than _10_ and therefore, by RAW, this explanation is highly improbable at best.

How do we know he doesn't have the Winged templateSS instead?




> *Celia*
> Lawful Good (DSTP), Sylph female, 6+ HD (required to cast Lightning Bolt).
> Str 14+ (required to pick up Roy).


Here's another flight-related issue. It might just be that I wasn't here yet when this was figured out, but how exactly would STR 14 explain Celia carrying Roy? For a Medium creature with this score, a light load is 58 lb. or less and a flying creature can only carry a light load while using its flight speed. She could have Reinforced Wings and Heavyweight WingsRotD and pull it off if a fully clothed Roy weighs less than 175 lb., but taking the latter feat requires a STR score of _15_.

----------


## Ephemera

> Here's another flight-related issue. It might just be that I wasn't here yet when this was figured out, but how exactly would STR 14 explain Celia carrying Roy? For a Medium creature with this score, a light load is 58 lb. or less and a flying creature can only carry a light load while using its flight speed. She could have Reinforced Wings and Heavyweight WingsRotD and pull it off if a fully clothed Roy weighs less than 175 lb., but taking the latter feat requires a STR score of _15_.


As I recall, there was a certain amount of hand-waving involved...or, rather, the general consensus was that it was more palatable to hand-wave one rule than conclude that Rich is just ignoring the rules for encumbrance fro flying creatures.

That is to say that there's maybe a bit of wiggle room in the RAW about whether a flying creature can lift more than a light load into the air, and I think it was decided that STR 14 would let Roy be a heavy load for her (insert dirty joke here).

It's probably cleaner in many ways to just say that OotS has a house rule about flying creatures and what they can carry (and I suspect you could assemble a consensus who agrees that's more likely insofar as any explanation is "true"), but the thread rules generally try to break as few RAW explanations as possible, and if she's weaker than that, she shouldn't be able to lift Roy at all. Although I guess you can lift twice a heavy load off the ground (not flying) and stagger around, so you might be right that there's no particular reason to justify pegging Roy as a heavy load for her when there's one rule that says he should be a light load and another that suggests he could be 2x a heavy load...

----------


## Wintermoot

> As I recall, there was a certain amount of hand-waving involved...or, rather, the general consensus was that it was more palatable to hand-wave one rule than conclude that Rich is just ignoring the rules for encumbrance fro flying creatures.
> 
> That is to say that there's maybe a bit of wiggle room in the RAW about whether a flying creature can lift more than a light load into the air, and I think it was decided that STR 14 would let Roy be a heavy load for her (insert dirty joke here).
> 
> It's probably cleaner in many ways to just say that OotS has a house rule about flying creatures and what they can carry (and I suspect you could assemble a consensus who agrees that's more likely insofar as any explanation is "true"), but the thread rules generally try to break as few RAW explanations as possible, and if she's weaker than that, she shouldn't be able to lift Roy at all. Although I guess you can lift twice a heavy load off the ground (not flying) and stagger around, so you might be right that there's no particular reason to justify pegging Roy as a heavy load for her when there's one rule that says he should be a light load and another that suggests he could be 2x a heavy load...


Indeed. 

The 14+ str is required to -PICK UP- Roy, not fly with Roy. Celia needed to pick him up, and we can measure that: (14+ str). The fact that that doesn't answer the question about how she flew with him is irrelevant for this point. We can set a lower boundary for her strength based on her picking up this lug of a fighter within the rules. We can separate the rest of it into a further unrelated unanswered side question.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> How do we know he doesn't have the Winged templateSS instead?


I don't think we've assumed anything. It could be a dragonborn kobold, for example. Better to just write "Flight".




> How exactly would STR 14 explain Celia carrying Roy?


It's a bit unclear what the rules are on flying while carrying people. It probably depends on extraordinary or supernatural flight, and your speed is arguably just reduced the way land speed is. "Maximum is heavy load" seemed more logical than "Celia has 22 Str".

----------


## Yanisa

> It's a bit unclear what the rules are on flying while carrying people. It probably depends on extraordinary or supernatural flight, and your speed is arguably just reduced the way land speed is. "Maximum is heavy load" seemed more logical than "Celia has 22 Str".


I am unsure what rules you find unclear?  :Small Confused: 

Basic rules state:



> A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load


Link
And just in case, hover is a part of the default flying maneuvers.

So we have very clear rules for the baseline, light load, no more. Doesn't matter if you carry people or loot.
There are of course magical exceptions, but that's magic for you.


I am unsure of how we ended up the strength scores as we did. This whole carry people while flying is an ancient topic, and often contested because it's high strength implications. I was looking trough the archives but haven't found the exact calculations yet.





> She could have Reinforced Wings and Heavyweight WingsRotD.


Celia having feats from Races of Dragon seems rather unlikely because of the real world time line, although not impossible.

RoD came out in January 17, 2006
#315 came out on 16 May 2006. 

And the first instance of improbable carrying while flying was Sabine, all the back in #57, 18 April 2004. 


Similarly, "Winged Kobold" isn't a creature in Races of Dragon. So either it's a "Dragonwought Kobold" or a the template "Winged" Kobold. With the wrong source.
I don't got the time to delve deeper in the old archives to figure out how we got here, and I don't wanna repeat ancient discussions, so I might chime in later with something more indepth.   :Small Tongue:

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> I am unsure what rules you find unclear?


"at the indicated speed". Any creature in armor or carrying a medium load has its speed reduced even while flying. Although it's not exactly a heavy load we have examples of creatures explicitly flying in heavy armor like the Justicator from MM3. Although heavy load and heavy armor are not quite identical they are so close in effect that they might as well be interchangeable.

----------


## Metastachydium

> As I recall, there was a certain amount of hand-waving involved...or, rather, the general consensus was that it was more palatable to hand-wave one rule than conclude that Rich is just ignoring the rules for encumbrance fro flying creatures.
> 
> That is to say that there's maybe a bit of wiggle room in the RAW about whether a flying creature can lift more than a light load into the air, and I think it was decided that STR 14 would let Roy be a heavy load for her (insert dirty joke here).
> 
> It's probably cleaner in many ways to just say that OotS has a house rule about flying creatures and what they can carry (and I suspect you could assemble a consensus who agrees that's more likely insofar as any explanation is "true"), but the thread rules generally try to break as few RAW explanations as possible, and if she's weaker than that, she shouldn't be able to lift Roy at all. Although I guess you can lift twice a heavy load off the ground (not flying) and stagger around, so you might be right that there's no particular reason to justify pegging Roy as a heavy load for her when there's one rule that says he should be a light load and another that suggests he could be 2x a heavy load...





> Indeed. 
> 
> The 14+ str is required to -PICK UP- Roy, not fly with Roy. Celia needed to pick him up, and we can measure that: (14+ str). The fact that that doesn't answer the question about how she flew with him is irrelevant for this point. We can set a lower boundary for her strength based on her picking up this lug of a fighter within the rules. We can separate the rest of it into a further unrelated unanswered side question.





> And the first instance of improbable carrying while flying was Sabine, all the back in #57, 18 April 2004.
> 
> ()
> 
> I don't got the time to delve deeper in the old archives to figure out how we got here, and I don't wanna repeat ancient discussions, so I might chime in later with something more indepth.


Fair enough.




> I don't think we've assumed anything. It could be a dragonborn kobold, for example. Better to just write "Flight".


_Races of the Dragon_ is cited as a source, and Dragonborn (even if we ignore the fluff) is just as poor a fit as Dragonwrought with feats; Kilkil would require the same 12 HD he certifiably doesn't have for continuous flight as shown.




> Similarly, "Winged Kobold" isn't a creature in Races of Dragon. So either it's a "Dragonwought Kobold" or a the template "Winged" Kobold. With the wrong source.


and for the reason stated above, I suspect the latter if we are to go by RAW.

----------


## Riftwolf

> I don't think we've assumed anything. It could be a dragonborn kobold, for example. Better to just write "Flight".
> 
> 
> 
> It's a bit unclear what the rules are on flying while carrying people. It probably depends on extraordinary or supernatural flight, and your speed is arguably just reduced the way land speed is. "Maximum is heavy load" seemed more logical than "Celia has 22 Str".


The rules in Oots for carrying people while flying have never been observed, from memory. Sabine carries both Nale and Thog from Azure City, for example. I thought there was a link in the thread header post about how strength and carrying capacity couldn't be discerned using flight rules. A personal theory I just came up with is an Outsider-only Sor/Wiz spell that triples carrying capacity while flying called "Flying Ant Haul" that the Outer Planes sells as wands free with every box of Outsider-O's.

----------


## Metastachydium

> The rules in Oots for carrying people while flying have never been observed, from memory. Sabine carries both Nale and Thog from Azure City, for example. I thought there was a link in the thread header post about how strength and carrying capacity couldn't be discerned using flight rules. A personal theory I just came up with is an Outsider-only Sor/Wiz spell that triples carrying capacity while flying called "Flying Ant Haul" that the Outer Planes sells as wands free with every box of Outsider-O's.


A lesser, non-exclusive version of that already exists (this is 3.5, we have stuff covered!); it's called Enduring FlightRotW (Sky 3, Sor/Wiz 4, so available for wands) and allows flying with medium encumbrance as if it were light. If that stacks with Easy Travel armourMIC, Sabine can be explained away with ease, if only retroactively.

----------


## Yanisa

> "at the indicated speed". Any creature in armor or carrying a medium load has its speed reduced even while flying. Although it's not exactly a heavy load we have examples of creatures explicitly flying in heavy armor like the Justicator from MM3. Although heavy load and heavy armor are not quite identical they are so close in effect that they might as well be interchangeable.


The rules also cover that; Emphasis mine:



> A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. *(Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.)* All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows:


Linky

There is also a (to me) weird interaction between the rules, because the game assumes armor to be worse than load.



> A characters armor defines his or her maximum Dexterity bonus to AC, armor check penalty, speed, and running speed. Unless your character is weak or carrying a lot of gear, thats all you need to know. The extra gear your character carries wont slow him or her down any more than the armor already does.


Linky

So, going off the deep end. If Celia is wearing heavy armor, and gains penalties bases on armor, she could carry Roy while ignored the encumbrance rules, as stated by the encumbrance rules!   :Small Tongue: 

Yes, I saw the "If your character is weak or carrying a lot of gear, however, then youll need to calculate encumbrance by weight. Doing so is most important when your character is trying to carry some heavy object."-clause, let me keep my fun.


But in the case of strength scores.

Sabine is based on this post. Ignoring the whole "fly encumbrance" because it can be side stepped with spells. Still even with magic, we need that 19+ strength for a heavy load. And in the case of Sabine a high strength makes sense, because she does a lot of tossing people around.

Which is turn should be the same logic for Celia. We cannot prove she isn't using a fly spell to bypass the "fly encumbrance". Roy at least weighs 122 lbs (minimal for human) but because of the festival isn't wearing his armor or presumable other gear. Which brings us to a minimal of 14 strength. A bit high, but not insanely unreasonable.
Maybe someone else did came to that same conclusion, but I didn't find it.
Also we have room up to 175 lbs, so Roy doesn't has to be underweight.  :Small Tongue: 


In conclusion, because it is possible to use magic to fly with a heavy load, the minimal strength we can gather for Celia is 14.




Edit to avoid double posting.

I also delved into our Kilkil friend.
The first time he was listed, he was already a "winged Kobold". However Races of the Dragons was not discussed as the only source. Winged template, Dragon Disciple and magic items also were named.

Because of Holy Word we know Kilkil's level range, and his maximum level prevents Dragonwought Kobold and Dragon Discipline, but that still leaves us with at least two options. Winged Template and Wings of Flying. So we cannot prove a single way of his wings.
My suggestion is to list Kilkil as a kobold, with "wings" and "flight" as abilities.

Races of the Dragon got added years later, and by then there was no discussion of other ways to fly because the discussion followed Girards dragon blood instead.
I also would like to point out I am am not trying to call anyone out for not knowing all sources, I am just figuring out how we got here to prevent double discussion.

Also, we should remove "Races of the Dragon" as a source book until we got a different way to prove something using only that source book.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I also delved into our Kilkil friend.


You're wonderful, thank you for looking into this.




> My suggestion is to list Kilkil as a kobold, with "wings" and "flight" as abilities.
> 
> ()
> 
> Also, we should remove "Races of the Dragon" as a source book until we got a different way to prove something using only that source book.


Aye. I'm throwing my support behind both motions.

----------


## Ephemera

I'm still not sure I buy the "Celia needs to be able to pick up Roy therefore he's a heavy load" argument. By my reading of the encumbrance rules, you can pick someone up and move at half-speed if they are twice your heavy load, and we definitely don't see her lift him into the air on her feet (in fact, I'd say the implication is that she holds him with her arms and then lifts off with her wings).

I can sort of see an argument for why she'd need to be able to lift him from a real-world perspective, but obviously flying with wings that size is magic from a real-world-physics point of view so that doesn't mean anything. 

So to me, unless we are saying that Celia has a string of feats/wands/spells that let her fly with a heavy load (which, under thread rules, isn't a crazy thing to postulate) I don't see a particular case for either "Roy is somehow a light load" or "Celia is lifting him under the 2x heavy load rules and in OoTS, that means she can fly slowly" (vs. of course, "OoTS doesn't observe encumbrance rules for flying" which is probably my headcanon, and still points--to me at least--towards "Roy is a 2x heavy load for her.).

In either case, I don't really see a clear justification for a 14+ strength unless we are asserting a combination of things (houserule or magic from dodgy splatbooks, most likely) that lets her fly normally with a heavy load.

----------


## Yanisa

> I'm still not sure I buy the "Celia needs to be able to pick up Roy therefore he's a heavy load" argument. By my reading of the encumbrance rules, you can pick someone up and move at half-speed if they are twice your heavy load, and we definitely don't see her lift him into the air on her feet (in fact, I'd say the implication is that she holds him with her arms and then lifts off with her wings).


While the rules of flying don't mention Lifting and Dragging I do feel we need to apply some "D&D-rule based common sense". Normally flying has a limit of Light Load, which has a weight range. Lifting and Dragging start at weights above the Light Load weight range. So Light Load is the limiting factor for carrying while flying and you can't fly while Lifting or Dragging.

Similarly, Medium and Heavy Load have weight ranges that are lower than what a character can lift or drag. Which is also why Lifting and Dragging have heavier movement penalties than Medium and Heavy Load.

However;



> So to me, unless we are saying that Celia has a string of feats/wands/spells that let her fly with a heavy load (which, under thread rules, isn't a crazy thing to postulate) I don't see a particular case for either "Roy is somehow a light load" or "Celia is lifting him under the 2x heavy load rules and in OoTS, that means she can fly slowly" (vs. of course, "OoTS doesn't observe encumbrance rules for flying" which is probably my headcanon, and still points--to me at least--towards "Roy is a 2x heavy load for her.).
> 
> In either case, I don't really see a clear justification for a 14+ strength unless we are asserting a combination of things (houserule or magic from dodgy splatbooks, most likely) that lets her fly normally with a heavy load.


We don't need extreme scenario's, the Overland Flight has an exception of the fly rule that allows heavy load flying, we known V has that spell. We don't see Celia carrying people all the time [citation needed]. So she could easily prepared this for a special night, rather than this is something she can do every day, every time.  :Small Tongue: 

What I am trying to show, with help from those before me, is the minimum strength required for Celia to carry Roy. Because you can fly with a heavy load (regardless of the source), we can set a minimum of strength required to carry the lightest version of Roy. Hence the 14+ strength. 
Roy might be heavier, carrying more than I assume or Celia isn't using magic. Then Celia needs a even higher strength, but in general people find that more unreasonable. 

I say it's impossible to explain Celia's ability to fly while carrying Roy with 13 or less strength within the D&D rules.

P.S.



> "OoTS doesn't observe encumbrance rules for flying"


I do agree that seems more likely, but this thread is to prove things within the D&D rules. Not to prove which rules are being used and which ones are not.

----------


## danielxcutter

Well she can cast Alter Self at least.

----------


## hamishspence

> By my reading of the encumbrance rules, you can pick someone up and move at half-speed if they are twice your heavy load


The rules are pretty clear that if you lift more than your heavy load but less than twice your heavy load, you're limited to 5 ft speed.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingC...ingandDragging


_Lifting and Dragging
A character can lift as much as his or her maximum load over his or her head.

A character can lift as much as double his or her maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action)._

----------


## Metastachydium

> We don't need extreme scenario's, the Overland Flight has an exception of the fly rule that allows heavy load flying, we known V has that spell. We don't see Celia carrying people all the time [citation needed]. So she could easily prepared this for a special night, rather than this is something she can do every day, every time.


Interesting fact: 3rd level Fly has the same text and Celia is a sylph. Assuming she's the 3 HD baseline version, she casts as a 7th level sorcerer. She has demonstrated her ability to use 3rd level spells, but as far as I can tell, we have only ever seen her cast Lightning Bolt  which leaves a slot open for another 3rd level spell known. Now, Fly is a weird pick for a creature with 90' (good) innate flight, but she doesn't need anything we don't know of to be able to fly with a heavy load for more than half an hour a day.

----------


## danielxcutter

Bull's Strength?

----------


## Ephemera

> While the rules of flying don't mention Lifting and Dragging I do feel we need to apply some "D&D-rule based common sense". Normally flying has a limit of Light Load, which has a weight range. Lifting and Dragging start at weights above the Light Load weight range. So Light Load is the limiting factor for carrying while flying and you can't fly while Lifting or Dragging.
> 
> Similarly, Medium and Heavy Load have weight ranges that are lower than what a character can lift or drag. Which is also why Lifting and Dragging have heavier movement penalties than Medium and Heavy Load.
> 
> However;
> 
> 
> We don't need extreme scenario's, the Overland Flight has an exception of the fly rule that allows heavy load flying, we known V has that spell. We don't see Celia carrying people all the time [citation needed]. So she could easily prepared this for a special night, rather than this is something she can do every day, every time. 
> 
> ...


I agree with the last part. My issue is that your breakdown still has two scenarios: either we are in the land of regular flying and Roy is somehow a light load (so Celia needs much higher strength), or else Celia isn't using her native flight ability and has done some off-panel casting, in which case it could be both Fly and also Bull's strength, or she borrowed a strength enhancing item, or cast something that reduced Roy's weight (or if she has fly, she just cast it on him and is holding him).

The point is, I'm not sure what Occam's Razor-satisfying scenario requires exactly Str 14?

----------


## b_jonas

I'm not sure if Bull's Strength actually helps.  The spell description is ambiguous, it kind of sounds like it doesn't actually raise your strength, instead the higher strength only counts for rules that care about the strength modifier, which the carrying capacity rule doesn't.

----------


## hamishspence

"Enhancement bonus to Strength" means _Str score_ is higher, until the spell wears off.



 The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, adding the usual benefits to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and other uses of the Strength modifier.



"What you can lift off the ground" is dependant on your strength score, _whatever_ it is - modified or otherwise. 

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm

A barbarian's rage grants them an _untyped_ bonus to Str:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm

representing a massive release of adrenaline from "working themselves into a rage" Would be a bit silly if a raging barbarian couldn't lift any more than a non-raging barbarian.

----------


## Yanisa

> I agree with the last part. My issue is that your breakdown still has two scenarios: either we are in the land of regular flying and Roy is somehow a light load (so Celia needs much higher strength), or else Celia isn't using her native flight ability and has done some off-panel casting, in which case it could be both Fly and also Bull's strength, or she borrowed a strength enhancing item, or cast something that reduced Roy's weight (or if she has fly, she just cast it on him and is holding him).
> 
> The point is, I'm not sure what Occam's Razor-satisfying scenario requires exactly Str 14?


It's a good point, but I am not going for the easiest explanation. I am going for the minimum amount of strength needed. That strength can even be enhanced, with more magic or magic items, making this even more convoluted.
My point is, you can fly with a heavy load, so Celia needs at least the strength to carry said heavy load. Which is 14+ strength.

Also in the past people did not accept the premise that Celia carries Roy without any enhancements. No magic would put her at 20+ strength, based on Roy weighing 122 lbs (minimum for human) and having no other gear.

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## Ephemera

> It's a good point, but I am not going for the easiest explanation. I am going for the minimum amount of strength needed. That strength can even be enhanced, with more magic or magic items, making this even more convoluted.
> My point is, you can fly with a heavy load, so Celia needs at least the strength to carry said heavy load. Which is 14+ strength.
> 
> Also in the past people did not accept the premise that Celia carries Roy without any enhancements. No magic would put her at 20+ strength, based on Roy weighing 122 lbs (minimum for human) and having no other gear.


I don't feel all that strongly about this, so I'm not sure why I'm belaboring this. But I'm not certain that we should be just basing this on determining minimum strength. Obviously that is the goal, but if minimum strength requires such a convoluted explanation to even work, then I don't know that it makes sense to list it. 

For 14 strength to even work as an explanation, it seems as though we have to assume off-panel casting or magic items, and while it's possible that Celia has Fly as a spell, that's such a radically weird thing for her to take that I think it would require some further evidence (plus, if she has Fly, she can cast it on Roy, too, and not need  to have 14 strength at all). If there's off-panel casting of Fly, then why not also off-panel casting of Bull's Strength (and then she only needs 10 strength), or Roy weighing 150 lbs and Strength 13 (or 9 and Bull's Strength).

I'm not sure any of this is a better fit (by thread rules) than a house rule of some sort (and once it's house rule, it could be either no carrying capacity rules at all for flying, or it could be that you can "lift and drag" while flying with a 5' move speed, either of which would match the on-panel evidence just fine). Am I missing a simple way that she can carry a heavy load while flying that would justify strength 14?

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## Yanisa

> I don't feel all that strongly about this, so I'm not sure why I'm belaboring this. But I'm not certain that we should be just basing this on determining minimum strength. Obviously that is the goal, but if minimum strength requires such a convoluted explanation to even work, then I don't know that it makes sense to list it. 
> 
> For 14 strength to even work as an explanation, it seems as though we have to assume off-panel casting or magic items, and while it's possible that Celia has Fly as a spell, that's such a radically weird thing for her to take that I think it would require some further evidence (plus, if she has Fly, she can cast it on Roy, too, and not need  to have 14 strength at all). If there's off-panel casting of Fly, then why not also off-panel casting of Bull's Strength (and then she only needs 10 strength), or Roy weighing 150 lbs and Strength 13 (or 9 and Bull's Strength).
> 
> I'm not sure any of this is a better fit (by thread rules) than a house rule of some sort (and once it's house rule, it could be either no carrying capacity rules at all for flying, or it could be that you can "lift and drag" while flying with a 5' move speed, either of which would match the on-panel evidence just fine). Am I missing a simple way that she can carry a heavy load while flying that would justify strength 14?


Honestly, I am glad with the discourse. Gives me the motivation to dig a bit deeper in all of this and catch my own mistakes as well. Here are a couple of small points:

In general bonuses to attributes aren't considered, just the end number. Roy is listed strength is 29. 

The flight scene depicts Roy being surprised and has no casting. Off-panel casting between two established panels that literally depict seconds is also a messy assumption, messier than off-panel casting before the scene. (That's why I prefer overland flight instead of fly, because it can be casted hours before the date.)
(Also no stagger for lifting off ground, but that can be subjective.)

Your mention of "Roy weighing 150 lbs and Strength 13" confused me to the point I realized I was reading the table wrong. Which is turn leads to lower a minimum. (Still no idea what you meant).

The lowest strength with a heavy load range that includes 122 lb. is 12 strength with 87-130 lb.
20 strength for light load is still accurate.

And here is a fun fact. The small sylph (MMII) has 8 strength. Increasing a creature from small to medium adds 4 strength.
Celia should have 12 strength from racial + size.

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## MultitudeMan

In light of #1271, should we add a Wand of Prestidigitation to Serini's entry, or could a "cleaning wand" be another spell? I don't think Purify Food and Drink would work on potion remnants.

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## danielxcutter

I'm not sure if there _are_ cleaning spells besides Prestidigitation, frankly.

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## Squire Doodad

> I'm not sure if there _are_ cleaning spells besides Prestidigitation, frankly.


Well now, I'm sure that if you try reverse casting Grease that'll buff that gravy stain right off!

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## Tzardok

Unseen Servant can be commanded to clean.

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## InvisibleBison

I think that in the absence of a specific spell name being mentioned it would be premature to assume what spell Serini is referencing here. It may well be prestidigitation, though given how versatile that spell is it's a bit odd she'd refer to it as "a cleaning spell", but it may be something else, including custom spells.

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## Ephemera

Given the strong likelihood this is a one-off joke, I'd vote for something like "wand of cleaning (unknown what spell exactly). We can always revise if it comes up again, but I'd be mildly surprised if it Chekov's wand of cleaning and not just a random item.

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## Jasdoif

> I'm not sure if there _are_ cleaning spells besides Prestidigitation, frankly.


_Farmhand_ comes to mind.

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## tyckspoon

> I'm not sure if there _are_ cleaning spells besides Prestidigitation, frankly.


Heat Metal could be used to sanitize a metal surface, although the cauldron itself probably has that effect built in as the base of its 'self-heating'; may have the equivalent of an oven-clean cycle it can run. Purify Food And Drink can detoxify 'poisonous' foods and liquids and could turn leftover contamination from the poison into non-toxic water.. although it explicitly does not affect potions, so would depend on if Serini's amnesia brew actually is an alchemical/mundane poison or if it's properly a magical potion.

.. but probably Prestidigitation, as 'cleaning stuff so your adventurer still looks pristine even after two weeks of travelling through dirt, mud, blood, dungeon slime, and unknowable ichor' is by far the best known usage.

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## RobertaME

> 3.5 doesn't have a knowledge astronomy. From Complete Arcana we do have Profession (astrologer).
> 
> ...
> 
> Crochet is not mentioned as a skill anywhere. I can find tailor, which is profession, but crochet feels more a craft. Not an official skill.
> 
> Blowing smoke rings also not a official skill. Feels like a preform, but preform is mostly instrument and acting. Not an official skill.
> 
> Soap making is mentioned in the Dungeon Master 2 guide as a Craftsman Specialty. Which is an chapter about rolling random professions for NPCs and city building, but is literally called a craft. Not an official skill.
> ...


Per the SRD and PHB, there _are_ no "official" Craft, Knowledge, or Profession skills. The closest you get are the examples given in the PHB, which aren't even reflected in the SRD. (except for some of the Knowledge skills)

In each case, the language used is, "Below are listed *typical* fields of study." (emphasis mine) in the SRD and PHB for Knowledge skills. Craft and Profession don't even list examples in the SRD. The PHB, which does include examples, also includes the language, "You are trained in a {craft, trade, or art}/{livelihood or a professional role}, *such as*". Adding "such as" means that the list that follows is an *incomplete* list. (Profession even adds "or the like" at the end of the list, further emphasizing that the list is incomplete)

As for blowing smoke rings, I agree that it might fall under a Perform check. Since Perform in 3.5 is limited to one of the 9 categories, but what each category does is up to the individual DM, the closest match I could figure would be Perform: Comedy or Perform: Act.

In addition, settings can add their own skills under 3.5. _Oriental Adventures_ added the skill "Iaijutsu Focus". In fact, the _Rokugan Campaign Setting_ sourcebook _specifically_ added the skill "Knowledge: Astronomy" on Pg 210, so there's precedent for adding skills not in the normal list as appropriate for a setting. Admitedly, these aren't "core", but that doesn't invalidate the core rules that state that Craft, Knowledge, Perform, and Profession themselves have basically unlimited variety.

Just my 2¢. YMMV. :)

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## danielxcutter

I think the ones explicitly used for class or feat requirements count as "official", yes. And at least most of the Knowledge checks.

But yeah Profession and Craft tend to be vague, intentionally I assume. And even some of the options used for prereqs can get pretty out there. Fatespinner has Profession(gambler) as a requirement for starters.

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## Tzardok

> Per the SRD and PHB, there _are_ no "official" Craft, Knowledge, or Profession skills. The closest you get are the examples given in the PHB, which aren't even reflected in the SRD. (except for some of the Knowledge skills)


In 3.0, Knowledge was like Craft and Profession in that you could make up your own things as much and as specialized as you wanted. 3.5 condensed Knowledge into the subskills found in the PHB, and except for Knowledge (Psionics) no 1st party 3.5 book uses other Knowledge subskills. 3rd party books sometimes add Knowledge subskills that they consider important (the D20 adaption of WoW for example has a Knowledge (Warcraft) skill), but generally in 3.5 there's only the ones in the PHB plus Psionics.

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## Metastachydium

> In 3.0, Knowledge was like Craft and Profession in that you could make up your own things as much and as specialized as you wanted. 3.5 condensed Knowledge into the subskills found in the PHB, and except for Knowledge (Psionics) no 1st party 3.5 book uses other Knowledge subskills. 3rd party books sometimes add Knowledge subskills that they consider important (the D20 adaption of WoW for example has a Knowledge (Warcraft) skill), but generally in 3.5 there's only the ones in the PHB plus Psionics.


Is the Forgotten Realms deal with "Knowledge (local) is actually several skills to purchase separately" a 3.0 thing only?

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## Tzardok

> Is the Forgotten Realms deal with "Knowledge (local) is actually several skills to purchase separately" a 3.0 thing only?


The book Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0) rules that Knowledge (Local) is not a thing and should be replaced by Knowledge ([whatever region]). Player's Guide to Faerûn (the conversion to 3.5) wanted to keep that while at the same time following the condensation of the Knowledge subskills and did it by dividing Knowledge (Local) in sub-subskills (so Knowledge (Local [Halrua]) or whatever). So it's not a 3.0 thing only, but I don't think it's contradictory to my claim before.

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## Metastachydium

> The book Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0) rules that Knowledge (Local) is not a thing and should be replaced by Knowledge ([whatever region]). Player's Guide to Faerûn (the conversion to 3.5) wanted to keep that while at the same time following the condensation of the Knowledge subskills and did it by dividing Knowledge (Local) in sub-subskills (so Knowledge (Local [Halrua]) or whatever). So it's not a 3.0 thing only, but I don't think it's contradictory to my claim before.


Of course not. Thanks for the clarification! (And man, was the 3.0 skill system _stupid_!)

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## Yanisa

> Per the SRD and PHB, there _are_ no "official" Craft, Knowledge, or Profession skills. The closest you get are the examples given in the PHB, which aren't even reflected in the SRD. (except for some of the Knowledge skills)


Problem is, without a DM or a mention in the rule books we cannot really add information to a character sheet. So there is something we in this thread consider "official", even though it sort off goes against the spirit of the rule.  :Small Tongue: 

Besides, I spend some time in collecting all skill mentions across 3.5, so I loved the chance to compare it.




> But yeah Profession and Craft tend to be vague, intentionally I assume. And even some of the options used for prereqs can get pretty out there. Fatespinner has Profession(gambler) as a requirement for starters.


My favorite is still Profession (silkmaker) to construct web golems (from the third Monster Manual). 




> The book Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0) rules that Knowledge (Local) is not a thing and should be replaced by Knowledge ([whatever region]). Player's Guide to Faerûn (the conversion to 3.5) wanted to keep that while at the same time following the condensation of the Knowledge subskills and did it by dividing Knowledge (Local) in sub-subskills (so Knowledge (Local [Halrua]) or whatever). So it's not a 3.0 thing only, but I don't think it's contradictory to my claim before.


Wow, that is amazing. You just found a few dozen new skill checks for my list.  :Small Big Grin: 

Edit: The Underdark has sub-sub regions!
Knowledge (Underdark (Great Bhaerynden) Local)

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## Tzardok

> Wow, that is amazing. You just found a few dozen new skill checks for my list. 
> 
> Edit: The Underdark has sub-sub regions!
> Knowledge (Underdark (Great Bhaerynden) Local)


You're very welcome.

And, yes it has five sub-regions. I mean, it's a continent spanning subterranean cave system. Did you think one sub-sub skill would be enough to cover it all?  :Small Smile:

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## RobertaME

> Problem is, without a DM or a mention in the rule books we cannot really add information to a character sheet. So there is something we in this thread consider "official", even though it sort off goes against the spirit of the rule. 
> 
> Besides, I spend some time in collecting all skill mentions across 3.5, so I loved the chance to compare it.


Apologies for misunderstanding. When "official" was mentioned I assumed that meant "3.5 official". I read through most of the threads of this discussion chain, but I guess I missed that part. My bad! ::blush::

In a way though, OotS _does_ have a DM... Rich Burlew. It could be said that by mentioning these in the comic that he was permitting those characters to have ranks in the appropriate Craft, Knowledge, or Profession skills... but I guess a line had to be drawn somewhere between what is seriously provable under 3.5 rules and what are one-off joke stats, skills, feats, etc.




> My favorite is still Profession (silkmaker) to construct web golems (from the third Monster Manual).


That one always bothered me since the difference, per the SRD and PHB, between a Craft and a Profession is whether or not you create something from the labor; silk-making produces a salable end-product and should really be a Craft, not a Profession. (same with Profession: Brewer, Tailor, and Taxidermy)

BTW, I looked at your sheet of skills. Very nice! If you like knowing new ones though, I saw some missing, notably from _Oriental Adventures_:

(all from pg 57 of OA)
Craft: Brewing*
Craft: Explosives
Craft: Flower Arranging
Craft: Landscape Gardening
Craft: Origami
Craft: Papermaking
Craft: Silkmaking*
Craft: Tailoring*

(all from pg 58 of OA)
Knowledge: Shadowlands _or_ Spirits (replaces Knowledge: The Planes)
Knowledge: Barbarian Lore
Knowledge: War

Perform: Acrobatics
Perform: Noh/Kabuki (separate from Act or Dance)
Perform: Poetry (separate from Oratory)
Perform: Rhetoric (separate from Oratory)
Perform: Storytelling (separate from Oratory)
Perform: Tea Ceremony

Profession: Masseur
Profession: Merchant (separate from Shopkeeper)
Profession: Mortician
Profession: Mountaineer
Profession: Pearl Bed Diver
Profession: Torturer

* These Craft skills may be considered different from their Profession counterparts in the same way that Craft: Blacksmithing is different from Profession: Blacksmith)

Hope that helps! :)

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## MultitudeMan

#1271 just got me thinking, are there any rules about eating in 3.5? Would whether or not Roy and the others eat a meal have a mechanical effect on any upcoming battle?

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## InvisibleBison

> #1271 just got me thinking, are there any rules about eating in 3.5? Would whether or not Roy and the others eat a meal have a mechanical effect on any upcoming battle?


There are rules about starvation, and there are some magical effects that create food that does things to people who eat them, but I don't think either of those are coming into play here.

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## Psyren

> Remembering a bit of information about a mimic is a DC 17. Belkar might have just rolled well, and only requires a single skill point (or half a rank) to make the check in the first place.


He was also savvy about Serini's monster placement.

1 rank is fine by me

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