# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 >  afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

## afroakuma

We emerge from the three-year reign of the seventh thread to found the *eighth* thread of me jabbering on about D&D lore both canon and afrocanon. The last seven threads have covered *quite* a lot of ground, and I hope this one continues the long tradition of fun discussion, random homebrew intrusions, investigating the most minute odds and ends of the D&D mythos, the occasional full campaign concept, and a minimum of decapitation threats.

If this is your first visit to my threads, be prepared for *loads and loads* of terminology, new ideas and more than a little narcissistic grandstanding as I attempt to clear the hurdles of forty-odd years of fluff buildup. There are a lot of regulars, but we like new faces. A cursory attempt to search the past threads before asking your question would be appreciated, since 1) we've got the Search Thread function back and 2) I get a *lot* of repeat questions. If it happens again, it happens, but if it can be avoided then so much the better.

Once again, the fundamentals:

*Basic Rules*

 We'll be going with canonical information wherever possible, wherein this refers to all sources from 3.5 and prior. 4E and beyond are irrelevant to me where this thread is concerned, and I will *actively refuse* to answer questions pertaining to 4E fluff.

 I'll conjecture on demand and supply tidbits from my own extensive work on the Planes where relevant, but these will always be pointed out.

 99% of the time, I'm not interested in breaking down sources. That requires a lot of digging about more often than not, and it's a very big library that I'm drawing from. If you really feel the need to contest something, try to be nice about it; I don't like having to plunge into the boxes to find the right book or magazine unless I'm not sure of something.

 I assume all or nearly all published settings to be connected in the same multiverse; this means both Spelljammer and Planescape, as well as worlds that try to remain separate such as Athas and Eberron, are all part of the same ball of wax as far as I'm concerned. Mystara is also considered included, and its cosmological uniqueness is interpreted through the lens of the Great Wheel. 

 There are very few sources that don't bring something to the table, but sometimes what's written has been done with rather more expedient and financial goals in mind than staying true to canon or respecting the work of past authors. In particular, the Races series from 3.5 notoriously threw out the old racial pantheons and started over with a lot of similar deities. Where this sort of laziness has been evident, older sources are considered to prevail within the context of this thread.

 This thread has nothing to do with Pathfinder and I'm not particularly capable of (or interested in) answering questions involving Golarion. All questions will be addressed as D&D questions using the 3.5 edition rules to the extent possible.

*Core Concepts*

 The planes as will be most commonly acknowledged in this thread include: the Material Plane; the Ethereal, Astral and Shadow Planes; the Positive and Negative Energy Planes; the Elemental Planes of Air, Earth, Fire and Water; the Para-Elemental Planes of Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke; the Quasi-Elemental Planes of Ash, Dust, Lightning, Minerals, Radiance, Salt, Steam and Vacuum; the seventeen major Outer Planes; and the Far Realm. Other planes that may be mentioned with some degree of frequency but lie within the realm of speculation are the Ordial Plane, the Planes of Cordance, the Semi-Elemental Planes, the Near Realm, the Vast Medium and any of those not already named that are located in the 3.X Manual of the Planes, as well as demiplanes.

 The term _exemplar_ or _exemplar race_ may be used a great deal in this thread. These terms refer to the major entities of pure alignment that reside on the Outer Planes: archons, guardinals, eladrins, slaad, tanar'ri, yugoloths, baatezu, modrons and rilmani.

 When discussing worlds of the Material Plane, I often turn to referencing their spatial location on a star chart made for Spelljammer. As there is no official chart to consult, I work off of an extensively detailed and thoroughly researched fanmade chart by Nerik (warning: *huge*). This chart represents the Arcane Inner Flow quadrant of the primary "galaxy" of Spelljammer. This "galaxy" is known as arcane space after the beings that ruthlessly control its spelljamming helm supply and the secret of the lanes that connect the heart of the region to its border, known as the Arcane Outer Flow or AOF. If I note something as being on or near to the AOF, it represents a significant distance from the center of arcane space and from the most well-known worlds in this quadrant (Oerth, Krynn and Toril).

 *Zargon is not an ancient baatorian*, and I'm not engaging on the topic yet again in this thread. It's been done to death already, search it up.

 Three years the last one was active for, how did that even happen?

 And in response to your unspoken question, no; I don't ever shut up.  :Small Big Grin: 

Happy questioning!

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## Tzardok

>  Three years the last one was active for, how did that even happen?


Oh, how many times did it look like the thread was sinking, unbuoyed by curiosity. But in truth, it just lurked beneath the surface, waiting... and snatching up any passing question morsel. Like a shark.  :Small Big Grin:  That's not the grin smiley, that's the "I'm gonna eat you" smiley.

By the by, do we have any idea where the dead power Auppenser did have his divine realm?

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## afroakuma

> By the by, do we have any idea where the dead power Aupenser did have his divine realm?


We know the name of the realm was _The Tranquil Grounds_, but since Auppenser was created in 3rd Edition, placing him conclusively is a bit more challenging. Either Arcadia or Mechanus, and I'm inclined toward the latter.

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## Bartmanhomer

> We know the name of the realm was _The Tranquil Grounds_, but since Auppenser was created in 3rd Edition, placing him conclusively is a bit more challenging. Either Arcadia or Mechanus, and I'm inclined toward the latter.


How did Auppenser become a dead deity anyway? I'm curious.  :Confused:

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## Tzardok

> How did Auppenser become a dead deity anyway? I'm curious.


Auppenser was the most revered deity in Jhaamdath, a human nation on Faerûn. When it was destroyed in a war with neighbouring elves, most of his followers lost their faith. Auppenser dwindled over time from lack of worship. That was over a thousand years ago. I don't know exactly when or how long; I don't have my timeline book with me.

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## QuickLyRaiNbow

Is there any additional information on the beholder city Ootul beyond what's in Lords of Madness?

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## afroakuma

> How did Auppenser become a dead deity anyway? I'm curious.


Gotta love a Dawn Cataclysm.




> Is there any additional information on the beholder city Ootul beyond what's in Lords of Madness?


Ooltul? Oh sure. _Underdark_ and _Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark_ both mention it. I'd suggest running through the overview on the Forgotten Realms wiki.

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## Caelestion

> Auppenser was the most revered deity in Chamdaath, a human nation on Faerûn. When it was destroyed in a war with neighbouring elves, most of his followers lost their faith. Auppenser dwindled over time from lack of worship. That was over a thousand years ago. I don't know exactly when or how long; I don't have my timeline book with me.


Jhaamdath was destroyed by a magical tidal wave in -255 DR, creating the Vilhon Reach, some 1600 years before the 1358-1372 DR timeframe of 3E Faerûn.  This was notably _after_ the Fall of Netheril and is one of the first uses of epic magic after Mystra's Ban.

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## Efrate

Since most vestiges have a sense of immense _age_ to them, is there something preventing the formulation of newer ones, like something closing the avenue to have you exist in near space?  I'm open to afrocannon here, I cannot think of anything that would or could but since ToM was end of 3.5 and got little support was wondering at your musings.  Something like a loophole closed by the powers that be.  

Also, one of the elder evils is seperate in mind and body, generally inaccessible (I do not own EE anymore so apologies for being hazy), and generally need super specific rite to bring the bits together, is it possible those bits have been shunted into near space? It makes sense to me to be in an inaccessible place that doesn't exist in a way we can comprehend.  

Also and completely random, could near space be a 'home's to some draeden?  Again the whole not existing thing but still existing.  I am trying to parse a bunch of half remembered bits into something cohesive to run with an idea I had rather than just fiat.

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## enderlord99

Were "Chamdaath" and "Jhaamdath" the same place or different ones?

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## PairO'Dice Lost

> Were "Chamdaath" and "Jhaamdath" the same place or different ones?


It's just Jhaamdath, "Chamdaath" is a misspelling, probably influenced by the region later becoming known as Chondath.

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## Tzardok

> Since most vestiges have a sense of immense _age_ to them, is there something preventing the formulation of newer ones, like something closing the avenue to have you exist in near space?  I'm open to afrocannon here, I cannot think of anything that would or could but since ToM was end of 3.5 and got little support was wondering at your musings.  Something like a loophole closed by the powers that be.  
> 
> Also, one of the elder evils is seperate in mind and body, generally inaccessible (I do not own EE anymore so apologies for being hazy), and generally need super specific rite to bring the bits together, is it possible those bits have been shunted into near space? It makes sense to me to be in an inaccessible place that doesn't exist in a way we can comprehend.  
> 
> Also and completely random, could near space be a 'home's to some draeden?  Again the whole not existing thing but still existing.  I am trying to parse a bunch of half remembered bits into something cohesive to run with an idea I had rather than just fiat.


First, it's the Near Realm, not near space. Vestiges aren't chilling in orbit.

Second, at least three of the vestiges in ToM were young. Acererak's death happened during 2e, in the adventure Return to the Tomb of Horrors. Orcus' death and resurrection are from the adventure Dead Gods, which happened close to the end of 2e. Geryon still had stats as a living being in 3.0 (in a web-enhancement for, I think, Manual of the Planes or Book of Vile Darkness), meaning that his fading happened most likely between that one and Fiendish Codex II in 3.5. There is no reason to assume that new vestiges couldn't happen in the modern time.

Third, that Elder Evil you are talking about sounds like Pandorym. It's mind is imprisoned in a crystal, and it's body is hidden in some undisclosed location on the Material Plane, far away from the mind, but still on the same world (and likely the same continent).

Fourth, Draeden and vestiges aren't very similiar. Vestiges are things that don't exist anymore, but still have an influence. Draeden are non-existence bound into a physical existence. I think it's unlikely that there's a connection. If you are looking for Draeden, you should instead go the far and forgotten corners of the multiverse. For example, there are a few Draeden frozen in the Paraelemental Plane of Ice and the Draeden called Ulgurshek acts as a layer in the Abyss.

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## QuickLyRaiNbow

Would an illithid elder brain, or group of elder brains, dedicated to extinguishing the sun attempt to awaken, or manipulate surface cults into awakening, Father Lymic as described in _Elder Evils_?  Does that pass the smell test, or would they consider the risk too high?

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## afroakuma

> Would an illithid elder brain, or group of elder brains, dedicated to extinguishing the sun attempt to awaken, or manipulate surface cults into awakening, Father Lymic as described in _Elder Evils_?  Does that pass the smell test, or would they consider the risk too high?


A rogue elder brain certainly might, and others might be convinced it's a reasonable plan, at least for a while - but by the time the dead sun reached Severe status, it's likely that conventional illithid communities would consider the Brood to be of significant concern and the method too risky for the goal. Remember that illithids don't care for the Far Realm, and that while they love creating new crossbreeds and modified creatures, it's to serve as thralls - the uncontrolled and infectious Brood would be a source of particular alarm.

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## QuickLyRaiNbow

> A rogue elder brain certainly might, and others might be convinced it's a reasonable plan, at least for a while - but by the time the dead sun reached Severe status, it's likely that conventional illithid communities would consider the Brood to be of significant concern and the method too risky for the goal. Remember that illithids don't care for the Far Realm, and that while they love creating new crossbreeds and modified creatures, it's to serve as thralls - the uncontrolled and infectious Brood would be a source of particular alarm.


That's kind of what I was thinking -- illithids want to turn off the sun _for their own comfort_.  Llymic's 'freezing realm of darkness and madness' might be a bit much for their ordered lifestyle, and if the surface-dwellers are converted into Brood Spawn, they've got a serious food problem; their cities don't carry enough slaves and thralls to feed them well.  They need a healthy surface population to raid.  Just because it'll work doesn't mean it's a good plan.  Ah well; it was a neat idea while it lasted.

I think in the past you've said that in your played version of the Forgotten Realms setting, the Chosen are depowered; can you elaborate on that a bit, or point me to a place where you've done so before?

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## Thurbane

So, randomly came upon the name Epona looking at monsters in the Planar Handbook.

*Spoiler*
Show





> _UrEpona, also known as Eponas grandchildren, are horselike creatures that can move from plane to plane. Descended through several generations from Epona (a being variously described as a horse-goddess or even the Primal Horse), they derive their power from her._




Does this goddess (?) get a write-up or mentioned elsewhere?

Does she have any kind of relationship with Equinals, or with Vhara? Or even the Equiceph race?

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## afroakuma

> I think in the past you've said that in your played version of the Forgotten Realms setting, the Chosen are depowered; can you elaborate on that a bit, or point me to a place where you've done so before?


I'm not entirely sure I have ever elaborated on it, come to think of it...

The fundamental idea is that the Realms come under threat due to the machinations of Karsus, the extremely-temporary deity of magic, more recently a vestige. A veeeery long-term plan to pull himself back into reality through the Weave is reliant on there being a high concentration of Mystra's power to jack into, which would be Elminster. If he were to do so, Karsus's residual backdoor into the godhead of Mystryl would result in absolute catastrophe for a second time. Of course, Mystra, as a greater goddess, can sense the threat to her power several weeks out, and starts laying plans.

Ultimately, Elminster chooses to pass of old age, relinquishing his Chosen immortality, and goes peacefully in his sleep after a pleasant meal with his assistant. When the threat doesn't clear, Mystra recalls her power from the other Chosen, and other gods are swift to follow suit, fearful that the willing withdrawal of the goddess of magic must be an indicator of grave danger to their own power (which hey, they are *not* wrong, there is a chance that any concentration of divine power that large could serve as Karsus's host). With so many individual casters reduced in power, and many of the greater evils (liches, etc.) choosing to flee the sphere entirely and set up shop elsewhere, uncertainty reigns as the greatest arcane powers are concentrated in artifacts and relics of past ages, many of which are in the trapped but now vacant domains of said greater evils.

The Red Wizards fall back into their towers and fortresses, weakening the magocratic foundations of Thay, as they jockey for scraps of power in the new diminished regime, fearful of a plot by the absent Szass Tam. Bane's forces in the north strike an uneasy peace with the Dalelands with neither side trusting the other. Shar is too cautious to believe Mystra has left a true power vacuum, but in an era of fear and loss, she's already making out like a bandit, so she doesn't care. In the far south, Zakhara's sha'irs quest to other lands to explore the weakening of magic.

Meanwhile, Talos has discovered that in a time when Shar and her Shadow Weave have backed off, and Bane is down a number of powerful wizards and uberclerics, destruction has a pretty good day. First among the greater powers to be willing to risk committing his own might onto the world once more, he has come with a plan - a plan taking place in a corner of the world so pivotal, yet so obscure, that nobody really saw it coming. In the so-called Utter East, beyond Durpar and the Golden Water, beyond even Ulgarth, the Five Kingdoms are the site of ancient fonts of primal magic, channeled by powerful artifacts known as "bloodforges" that were used in ages past to create living armies of pure magic to wage war on one another. Talos plans to seize the bloodforges and use the most ancient magics of the world to sow destruction and chaos, becoming the preeminent deity of darkness.

Lastly, a group of terrifying riders cloaked in black, redolent with the stench of the grave, have appeared across the Realms, all of them conducting unusual errands as they gradually converge on the Five Kingdoms, each bearing the symbol of a long-gone Lord of the Dead. The church of Kelemvor investigates these sightings with growing alarm, worried about the possibility that in this age of shadow, Myrkul may yet return.




> So, randomly came upon the name Epona looking at monsters in the Planar Handbook.
> 
> Does this goddess (?) get a write-up or mentioned elsewhere?


Only one mention outside of the monster references that I've seen; it's noted that she's a lesser power or demipower of the Celtic pantheon, and resides in Tir na nOg with them.




> Does she have any kind of relationship with Equinals, or with Vhara?


Doubtful.




> Or even the Equiceph race?


Hard no.

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## aj77

What is the relationship between the Chinese Pantheon's Celestial Bureaucracy and the Celestial Bureaucracy of Kara Tur?  Same Celestial Emperor, different functionary gods?  Same pantheon with different names?  Entirely unrelated?

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## Bartmanhomer

What's the history of the Celestial Hebdomad and their role against the archdevils?

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## Edreyn

Good to see a new thread from you, Afroakuma!
I hope that by now you had forgiven me for my older unclear questions and won't object to me asking new ones.

1) What does the name "Baator" means, or what's it named after in real life? Other planes are named after real\mythological\historical places (Arcadia, Gehenna, Elisium) or self-explanatory (Beastlands, Carceri, Mechanus). Limbo is from Divine Comedy by Dante. But after what Baator is named?

2) There is a now old game Neverwinter Nights 2 and it has a add-on named Mask of the Betrayer. It's pre 4ed and uses standard 3.5 system and cosmology. Yet, the protagonist in this game can consume souls\spirits\whatever there is of powerful creatures and even demigods or dead deities (Myrkul). 

If the player will pursue evil storyline and do evil choices the game ending will say that he became a god-killing abomination and continued eternal devouring of everything or everyone and even gods had to flee to the edges of Multiverse.

Pretty much the same actually goes for the Snarl from the comic on which site we write.

Are creatures like this ever mentioned and can exist, at least potentially, in the original vanilla Planescape?
Can a mortal receive such power?

3) In the same game, the hero discovers a carcass of Myrkul, floating in the middle of nowhere. Some most devoted worshipers even live on it. And the player can talk and interact with Myrkul. So, the dead deity can't grant spells, but still can talk to those in close vicinity, is it so? 
From older threads of this one I also read that in some cases dead deities can return, in special circumstances.

But can a deity be eradicated permanently?
What happened to Aoskar? Does his remains float somewhere in Astral and can be potentially "resurrected" (far from Sigil), or he is gone completely?
What happened to previous Mystra, Myrkul, Baal and Bane who were killed while being stripped of godhood? Are they completely gone, float in Astral or got afterlives as petitioners as mortals do?

4) There are two major endless wars in Multiverse: Blood War and a war between Githyanki and Githzerai. Due to the Rule of the Three, there should also be a third one. Is there one? 
I thought of endless conflicts of Acheron, but I'd say it isn't exactly one big war with constant stalemate.

5) Some long time ago, I asked if Spire is infinite to the depth as well, and you said that it is. Can there be another city, a twin of Sigil in the depth below the Spire? Has it ever been discussed, in the lore, or in real life?

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## Eldan

The names Baator/Baatezu and Tanar'ri were most likely made up of whole cloth during second edition, when TSR pretty frantically tried to remove anything "demonic-looking" for a while due to religious panic.

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## Edreyn

> The names Baator/Baatezu and Tanar'ri were most likely made up of whole cloth during second edition, when TSR pretty frantically tried to remove anything "demonic-looking" for a while due to religious panic.


That might be so, but the word "Abyss" does have a meaning - bottomless chasm, and does make associations with something. The word "Baator", as far as I know, doesn't.

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## Tzardok

> The names Baator/Baatezu and Tanar'ri were most likely made up of whole cloth during second edition, when TSR pretty frantically tried to remove anything "demonic-looking" for a while due to religious panic.


That story always cracks me up when I hear it.

Religious fanatics: "Dungeons and Dragons is satanistic! It's full of demons and angels!"

TSR: "Demons and angels? What demons and angels? Those are Tana'ri and Aasimon, honest!"

Religious fanatics: "You are right. That's completly different. Carry on, good citizen."




> That might be so, but the word "Abyss" does have a meaning - bottomless chasm, and does make associations with something. The word "Baator", as far as I know, doesn't.


That's exactly what Eldan said, Edreyn. Baator is an invented word, simply for the reason that "Hell" couldn't be used anymore. With "Abyss" one has a degree of seperation to the "hellish" meaning, which grants plausible denieability.




> 2) There is a now old game Neverwinter Nights 2 and it has a add-on named Mask of the Betrayer. It's pre 4ed and uses standard 3.5 system and cosmology. Yet, the protagonist in this game can consume souls\spirits\whatever there is of powerful creatures and even demigods or dead deities (Myrkul). 
> 
> If the player will pursue evil storyline and do evil choices the game ending will say that he became a god-killing abomination and continued eternal devouring of everything or everyone and even gods had to flee to the edges of Multiverse.
> 
> Pretty much the same actually goes for the Snarl from the comic on which site we write.
> 
> Are creatures like this ever mentioned and can exist, at least potentially, in the original vanilla Planescape?
> Can a mortal receive such power?


Draeden are like that. Some of the Elder Evils in the eponymous book are described like that, but they are overhyped. Tharizdun has an reputation like that, but... who knows?




> 3) In the same game, the hero discovers a carcass of Myrkul, floating in the middle of nowhere. Some most devoted worshipers even live on it. And the player can talk and interact with Myrkul. So, the dead deity can't grant spells, but still can talk to those in close vicinity, is it so? 
> From older threads of this one I also read that in some cases dead deities can return, in special circumstances.


Myrkul is a cheating cheater who cheats. His mind is still alive, imprisoned in the Horn Crown.




> But can a deity be eradicated permanently?
> What happened to Aoskar? Does his remains float somewhere in Astral and can be potentially "resurrected" (far from Sigil), or he is gone completely?
> What happened to previous Mystra, Myrkul, Baal and Bane who were killed while being stripped of godhood? Are they completely gone, float in Astral or got afterlives as petitioners as mortals do?


The Graveyard of the Gods floats in the Astral and is patroled by the Gravekeeper. Aoskar's corpse is there. As far as I know every dead deity has a corpse there.




> 4) There are two major endless wars in Multiverse: Blood War and a war between Githyanki and Githzerai. Due to the Rule of the Three, there should also be a third one. Is there one? 
> I thought of endless conflicts of Acheron, but I'd say it isn't exactly one big war with constant stalemate.


I do not see why you consider the skirmishes between the Gith races of equal importance to the Blood War, or even of greater importence than the fighting between the Gith and the illithids, or any of the other "eternal" wars like between Gruumsh and Corellon Larethian, or Gruumsh and Maglubiyet, or Thrym and Thor, or whoever.




> 5) Some long time ago, I asked if Spire is infinite to the depth as well, and you said that it is. Can there be another city, a twin of Sigil in the depth below the Spire? Has it ever been discussed, in the lore, or in real life?


I don't know, but in my opinion a mirror Sigil (let's call it Rune) shouldn't exist. It infringes on the importance of Sigil as a fulcrum of the multiverse. (I mean, if there is a second Sigil, why did Vecna intruding into Sigil had those grave rammification for the multiverse?) Also, Rune's existence opens up a lot of uncomfortable questions about the Lady.

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## Edreyn

As always, answers are interesting and I enjoy reading them. Thanks!




> Religious fanatics: "Dungeons and Dragons is satanistic! It's full of demons and angels!"
> 
> TSR: "Demons and angels? What demons and angels? Those are Tana'ri and Aasimon, honest!"
> 
> Religious fanatics: "You are right. That's completly different. Carry on, good citizen."


Good one!  :Small Big Grin: 




> That's exactly what Eldan said, Edreyn. Baator is an invented word, simply for the reason that "Hell" couldn't be used anymore. With "Abyss" one has a degree of seperation to the "hellish" meaning, which grants plausible denieability.


Okay, but Gehenna and Limbo are still associated with Hell. Though Gehenna is a real place, it still used as synonym for "Hell". And Limbo is a "zero layer" of Hell according to Dante, and directly described as one. City of Dis and names of Carceri layers are from same source. Why those were left then?




> Draeden are like that. Some of the Elder Evils in the eponymous book are described like that, but they are overhyped. Tharizdun has an reputation like that, but... who knows?


Yes, I remember reading about them in those threads. But can a mortal become something like this? I saw the name Tharizdun before, but don't know who he is. 




> The Graveyard of the Gods floats in the Astral and is patroled by the Gravekeeper. Aoskar's corpse is there. As far as I know every dead deity has a corpse there.


Now that's interesting, never read about this before. I always imagined dead deities randomly floating in Astral, without any specific place, center of pattern. Where I can read more about Graveyard and Gravekeeper?




> I do not see why you the skirmishes between the Gith races considere of equal importance to the Blood War, or even of greater importence than the fighting between the Gith and the illithids, or any of the other "eternal" wars like between Gruumsh and Corellon Larethian, or Gruumsh and Maglubiyet, or Thrym and Thor, or whoever.


I am writing about conflicts I know from Torment or lore books. As for illithids, I'd say that the conflict between Githyanki, Githzerai and Illithids is one war, just with three sides instead of two. I honestly don't know what is longer - war between deities you mentioned or war of both Gith races with mind flayers. I just was thinking that Blood War and the war of Gith races can be seen as something similar.

I'll update my question then: is there any additional eternal wars that aren't between deities, but between races or species? Outside of Acheron.




> I don't know, but in my opinion a mirror Sigil (let's call it Rune) shouldn't exist. It infringes on the importance of Sigil as a fulcrum of the multiverse. (I mean, if there is a second Sigil, why did Vecna intruding into Sigil had those grave rammification for the multiverse?) Also, Rune's existence opens up a lot of uncomfortable questions about the Lady.


Yup. I wonder if there is or was a Lord of Pain. Maybe he offended Lady who had to flee Rune and create Sigil. Now we know why she is that angry on everyone!  :Small Big Grin:

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## Tzardok

> Okay, but Gehenna and Limbo are still associated with Hell. Though Gehenna is a real place, it still used as synonym for "Hell". And Limbo is a "zero layer" of Hell according to Dante, and directly described as one. City of Dis and names of Carceri layers are from same source. Why those were left then?


Do you really think that the sort of bible swinging fanatic who let themselves be fooled by renaming a daemon a yugoloth knows that "Gehenna" is the Jewish counterpart of Hell?




> Yes, I remember reading about them in those threads. But can a mortal become something like this?


No idea.




> I saw the name Tharizdun before, but don't know who he is.


I'll just let Afro from the 1st thread do the introductions:



> Originally Posted by Arcanist
> 
> Speaking of Tharizdun, what exactly is he that makes the other gods quake in there boots?
> 
> 
> A dreadful bore. Seriously, if you ever have dinner with the guy, you'll want to throw him in a Demiplane of Imprisonment too. Doesn't help that he argues about his cut of the bill when the time comes to pay up.
> 
> Oh wait, you meant the *other* Tharizdun.
> 
> ...


If one then remembers that this coalition of deities which imprisoned him included virtually all greater powers of Oerth, regardless of alignment, one has quite a nice picture of him.
And really. Dinner was horrible.




> Now that's interesting, never read about this before. I always imagined dead deities randomly floating in Astral, without any specific place, center of pattern. Where I can read more about Graveyard and Gravekeeper?


The word Garveyard implies more than it is. It's just a bunch of rocks that used to be gods clustered in the same general area. The Guardian of Dead Gods was addressed a few times in those threads. He used to be Anubis of the Pharaonic pantheon, but stopped being a god (and being Anubis) when he took his new duties. Anyway, I would start with this post in the 6th thread.




> Yup. I wonder if there is or was a Lord of Pain. Maybe he offended Lady who had to flee Rune and create Sigil. Now we know why she is that angry on everyone!


That would imply that Sigil is the _lesser_ city. That... I mean... yeah...

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## Edreyn

> Do you really think that the sort of bible swinging fanatic who let themselves be fooled by renaming a daemon a yugoloth knows that "Gehenna" is the Jewish counterpart of Hell?


Guess not.




> I'll just let Afro from the 1st thread do the introductions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Speaking of Tharizdun, what exactly is he that makes the other gods quake in there boots?
> A dreadful bore. Seriously, if you ever have dinner with the guy, you'll want to throw him in a Demiplane of Imprisonment too. Doesn't help that he argues about his cut of the bill when the time comes to pay up.
> ...


Wow! Now this is... really scary! As before, interesting to read articles like this.

One part of the long quote reminded me of a question I wanted to ask long ago, but kept forgeting.




> It is now believed that the wraithlike deity was an *aspect* of Tharizdun


So, this is my question. Not about this specific aspect, but the general idea. For example, Sharess is goddess of lust is considered to be an aspect of Shar, goddess of darkness. How is it possible, that both exist as characters or entities, have a physical form on Outer Planes and each with separate consciousness, but still one is a aspect aka a part of another? I mean, in Planescape cosmology deities are actually people, very powerful, but still people who behave like people, though in some cases their alignments are much more extreme then those of mortals. How can a person have aspects who have their own consciousness?

----------


## Tzardok

> So, this is my question. Not about this specific aspect, but the general idea. For example, Sharess is goddess of lust is considered to be an aspect of Shar, goddess of darkness. How is it possible, that both exist as characters or entities, have a physical form on Outer Planes and each with separate consciousness, but still one is a aspect aka a part of another?


Simple. Shar is a lying liar who lies. (I'm noticing a trend in those questions...) Shar does this thing where her church infiltrates other religions and slowly makes them believe that their god is just an aspect of Shar. This leads, if not counteracted, to Shar subsuming the other deity. Shar did this successfully with Ibrandul, a deity of caves and dungeons, and currently tries with the Chultan deity Eshowdow. Sharess specifically was saved from being subsumed and the infection of Shar worshippers in her cult destroyed through the help of Sune.
Shar isn't the only deity who uses this tactic. Set for example successfully subsumed the Faerûnian yuan-ti deity Sseth.




> I mean, in Planescape cosmology deities are actually people, very powerful, but still people who behave like people, though in some cases their alignments are much more extreme then those of mortals. How can a person have aspects who have their own consciousness?


And this is your problem. Planescape deities aren't people. They are forces of (super-) nature that occassionally look like people. They can be in many places at once. They can form avatars and aspects. A deity can sense things miles away, hear every instance of their name spoken by a mortal, notice every event involving their portfolio in their area of worship, sometimes weeks before it happens. A deity's personality is formed by their portfolio and the beliefs of their worshippers, not the other way round.
A deity is not a person. It's a power.

----------


## Edreyn

Thank you for answering about Sharess and Shar. 
One final question about them: is the similarity of their names just a coincidence?




> And this is your problem. Planescape deities aren't people. They are forces of (super-) nature that occassionally look like people. They can be in many places at once. They can form avatars and aspects. A deity can sense things miles away, hear every instance of their name spoken by a mortal, notice every event involving their portfolio in their area of worship, sometimes weeks before it happens. A deity's personality is formed by their portfolio and the beliefs of their worshippers.
> A deity is not a person. It's a power.


Okay, I can accept this. The quote reminded me something from Norse mythology. This religion is old gone, but still a religion, so I don't know if it can be discussed. Probably not.

But I do want to explain why I said that deities in this cosmology are people.

Remember Avatars series? Yes, in three original books deities looked and behaved as people because Ao forced them to this. But the fourth book (different author I think) describes them already after this. And why I say that they behave as people, though their alignments are extreme.

Midnight\new Mystra still loved Kelemvor, but suspected he now sees her physical form as a mummy. Cyric was cheating and plotting as he did in life. It took gods so much of effort and time to reclaim Cyrinishad, and then Mask stole it again, just for lulz. He also said, leave me alone, stealing is my nature. Kelemvor even tried to continue being honest judge of souls, and started sending souls to the Wall only after being scolded by Ao. And it was Cyric who snitched on Kelemvor to Ao about this. 

Even in the first book, Helm, the only one who wasn't made mortal, in the scene when he killed old Mystra, while he really created a few forms of himself, he still had a humanoid form and talked like a usual devoted warrior.
Those series do describe deities as people, and they do behave as people.
Are they considered canon or not?

----------


## Tzardok

> Thank you for answering about Sharess and Shar. 
> One final question about them: is the similarity of their names just a coincidence?


No. Sharess had another name before Shar got her hooks into her. She used to be the Mulhorandi pantheon's Bast, hence her having cats in her portfolio.




> But I do want to explain why I said that deities in this cosmology are people.
> 
> Remember Avatars series? Yes, in three original books deities looked and behaved as people because Ao forced them to this. But the fourth book (different author I think) describes them already after this. And why I say that they behave as people, though their alignments are extreme.
> 
> Midnight\new Mystra still loved Kelemvor, but suspected he now sees her physical form as a mummy. Cyric was cheating and plotting as he did in life. It took gods so much of effort and time to reclaim Cyrinishad, and then Mask stole it again, just for lulz. He also said, leave me alone, stealing is my nature. Kelemvor even tried to continue being honest judge of souls, and started sending souls to the Wall only after being scolded by Ao. And it was Cyric who snitched on Kelemvor to Ao about this. 
> 
> Even in the first book, Helm, the only one who wasn't made mortal, in the scene when he killed old Mystra, while he really created a few forms of himself, he still had a humanoid form and talked like a usual devoted warrior.
> Those series do describe deities as people, and they do behave as people.
> Are they considered canon or not?


The books are canon. Maybe I was a bit overeager when I said they aren't people. Let me correct myself: they are _more than_ people. Talos isn't just a boisterous guy who likes smashing things and enjoys a good thunderstorm. He is *Destruction* and _Storm_ and Conflagration, shaped into a semi-human mindshed and body through the beliefs and ideas of his worshippers. Shar isn't just a superpowered goth who enjoys people being depressed. She is *Darkness.* She is Loss and Desolation. She is *The Night*. 

She is Batman.

To take another example, look at Chauntea. When she was born, she was the Earth Mother. She was nature, red in tooth and claw. She was fertility and fecundity, animals and plants fighting for suvival, feeding, mating and dying. See what she is now, after being changed by millenia of worship. She is the Neutral Good goddess of agriculture, the gentle mother of summer, the patroness of farmers and gardeners. That wasn't just a person switching jobs or changing hobbies. That was a transformation, a shifting of her fundamental nature.

----------


## Efrate

That chauntea bit brings to mind a question.  Since her nature changed over eons with worshippers changing, does she remember her old self or does that chauntea not exist anymore?  Is it a quiet voice in her head, kind of like the random impulse like flip that guy off when something comes up that is (hopefully) suppressed?  Did that splinter offend becoming something like Malar? Is that part of her still worshipped in some weird hinterlands of primitive people? And if so does that mean that part of her exists independently or makes that voice a little more insistent?

----------


## Thurbane

Quick question about the Realms goddess Shar: does she have any notable followers or minions that are vampires?

----------


## Wise Weasel

> Good to see a new thread from you, Afroakuma!
> 1) What does the name "Baator" means, or what's it named after in real life? Other planes are named after real\mythological\historical places (Arcadia, Gehenna, Elisium) or self-explanatory (Beastlands, Carceri, Mechanus). Limbo is from Divine Comedy by Dante. But after what Baator is named?


Baator is a made up word to replace 'Hell' and it has no meaning.  




> a god-killing abomination and continued eternal devouring of everything or everyone and even gods had to flee to the edges of Multiverse.
> 
> Are creatures like this ever mentioned and can exist, at least potentially, in the original vanilla Planescape?
> Can a mortal receive such power?


Yes.  Several such creatures all ready exist like this.  Dahak, Ma Yaun(the killer of gods), Apep(Apophis), Fenris, Jormungandr and Kezif the Chaos Hound.

The power for a mortal....doubtful.  




> 3) In the same game, the hero discovers a carcass of Myrkul, floating in the middle of nowhere. Some most devoted worshipers even live on it. And the player can talk and interact with Myrkul. So, the dead deity can't grant spells, but still can talk to those in close vicinity, is it so? 
> From older threads of this one I also read that in some cases dead deities can return, in special circumstances.
> 
> But can a deity be eradicated permanently?
> What happened to Aoskar? Does his remains float somewhere in Astral and can be potentially "resurrected" (far from Sigil), or he is gone completely?
> What happened to previous Mystra, Myrkul, Baal and Bane who were killed while being stripped of godhood? Are they completely gone, float in Astral or got afterlives as petitioners as mortals do?


Well....Myrkul is a special case as he cheated death by hiding in an artifact.  

Sometimes "dead' deities can and do grant spells...sometimes another friendly god steps in to do this, and sometimes it's just a mystery.  (3E even had a feat you could take to get power from a dead god).

It's general hard to bring a god back....but possible.  And anything can be eradicated.  

Sure, it's possible, in theory, to resurrect any god.  

Mystra, Myrkul, Bhaal and Bane are all special cases....see they all knew they were going to die and planned ahead.  Of those four, only Mystra "really died", and it was of her own choice as she passed on her godhood and name to another.....she was eradicated(much like the Mystra before her).




> 4) There are two major endless wars in Multiverse: Blood War and a war between Githyanki and Githzerai. Due to the Rule of the Three, there should also be a third one. Is there one? 
> I thought of endless conflicts of Acheron, but I'd say it isn't exactly one big war with constant stalemate.


You can't really apply the Rule of Three to something as simple as a war.  After all what counts as a 'major war'.  Good vs evil and law vs chaos would count as two wars, right?  How about elves vs orcs?  Gnomes vs goblins?  The elemental wars?  





> 5) Some long time ago, I asked if Spire is infinite to the depth as well, and you said that it is. Can there be another city, a twin of Sigil in the depth below the Spire? Has it ever been discussed, in the lore, or in real life?


Anything is possible sure....maybe.  I've never seen any lore on it.  




> Okay, but Gehenna and Limbo are still associated with Hell. Though Gehenna is a real place, it still used as synonym for "Hell". And Limbo is a "zero layer" of Hell according to Dante, and directly described as one. City of Dis and names of Carceri layers are from same source. Why those were left then?


Classic case of slipping stuff past the radar.  

They scream "no demons no hell!"

TSR-"Um, ok, how about Gehenna and Limbo?'

They mumble-"Um, no problem.  I don't even know those two words."




> Now that's interesting, never read about this before. I always imagined dead deities randomly floating in Astral, without any specific place, center of pattern. Where I can read more about Graveyard and Gravekeeper?


I think the only major source is _The Complete guide to the Astral Plane_ 2E.





> I'll update my question then: is there any additional eternal wars that aren't between deities, but between races or species? Outside of Acheron.


Elf vs drow, elf vs orc, gnome vs goblin, dwarf vs orc, dwarf vs duegar, and all the elemental ones.





> So, this is my question. Not about this specific aspect, but the general idea. For example, Sharess is goddess of lust is considered to be an aspect of Shar, goddess of darkness. How is it possible, that both exist as characters or entities, have a physical form on Outer Planes and each with separate consciousness, but still one is a aspect aka a part of another? I mean, in Planescape cosmology deities are actually people, very powerful, but still people who behave like people, though in some cases their alignments are much more extreme then those of mortals. How can a person have aspects who have their own consciousness?


Keep in mind the gods are a big mystery so no mortal really "knows" anything about them for sure that is a "fact".  

Sharess is an aspect manifestation of Bast...and, well, it's complicated.  She has nothing to do with Shar at all, despite the similar names.

A god is not a "person", they are beings.  It's complicated, again, but technically when you see a god acting that is an avatar of the god, not the god.  And avatar's are "people".  Depending on the gods power level, they can have several avatars.  And each avatar can be different.  And gods can have aspects too.

And that is on top of a single god can have many names and be worshiped by each. 




> Are they considered canon or not?


They are all avatars.  The books even say so.  Mystra, Cyric and Mask are all quite busy during those stories...and often are doing several things all at the same time.  There was, for example, one bit before the climax where Mystra sends a dozen avatars out to send messages to each god she wanted to talk too.

As Mystra, Kelvmor and Cyric were all new gods....having been mortals not to long ago....they were naturally still acting like mortals: This is a plot point in both books.




> That chauntea bit brings to mind a question.  Since her nature changed over eons with worshippers changing, does she remember her old self or does that chauntea not exist anymore?  Is it a quiet voice in her head, kind of like the random impulse like flip that guy off when something comes up that is (hopefully) suppressed?  Did that splinter offend becoming something like Malar? Is that part of her still worshipped in some weird hinterlands of primitive people? And if so does that mean that part of her exists independently or makes that voice a little more insistent?


Well....yes.  The Old, Wild Chauntea became an aspect called the Earthmother.  




> Quick question about the Realms goddess Shar: does she have any notable followers or minions that are vampires?



Dahlia Vhammos one of the leaders of the Night Masks

----------


## afroakuma

Do I even have a job to do anymore?  :Small Sigh: 

Also, a reminder, for the love of all that is ancient and Baatorian, *please please please* do not invoke real-world religion in this thread, lest it cease to be a thread. There is absolutely no reason to mention the holy book of any present-day religion, or to refer to old world religions in a context other than the mythologically-derived elements offered up in D&D.

----------


## Edreyn

Okay, let's stop discussing religion-related things. I got my answer, thanks everyone.

Afro, what's your personal opinion about anti-Sigil below the Spire?

----------


## Bartmanhomer

> What's the history of the Celestial Hebdomad and their role against the archdevils?


What am I, chopped liver? Did anybody forget my question already?  :Annoyed:

----------


## afroakuma

> What is the relationship between the Chinese Pantheon's Celestial Bureaucracy and the Celestial Bureaucracy of Kara Tur?  Same Celestial Emperor, different functionary gods?  Same pantheon with different names?  Entirely unrelated?


Same Celestial Emperor, different functionaries would appear to be the intent. The functionaries of Kara-Tur appear to be of minor standing compared to those of the Chinese Pantheon writ large.




> What's the history of the Celestial Hebdomad and their role against the archdevils?


A *very* long time ago, seven martyrs to the cause of law and good were reborn on the Mount as the first tome archons, the Celestial Hebdomad. In the time between then and now, six of them have died and been replaced.

For the most part, their role doesn't distinctively involve challenging the Lords of the Nine; Barachiel oversees the defense of the first layer against incursion; Erathaol predicts major planar events; Raziel would be the vanguard general of Celestia if there was a need to lead a force off-plane for any reason; and Sealtiel ensures that the highest layer is protected from any unworthy beings attempting to enter.




> That chauntea bit brings to mind a question.  Since her nature changed over eons with worshippers changing, does she remember her old self or does that chauntea not exist anymore?  Is it a quiet voice in her head, kind of like the random impulse like flip that guy off when something comes up that is (hopefully) suppressed?  Did that splinter offend becoming something like Malar? Is that part of her still worshipped in some weird hinterlands of primitive people? And if so does that mean that part of her exists independently or makes that voice a little more insistent?


Chauntea remembers herself in all aspects, she just considers herself more complete now. Aspects of Chauntea are worshiped in many lands under many names and with many attributes, though they are not independent deities. Certain principles and precepts remain central to Chauntea specifically and not other deities; for instance, she has never been a goddess of the hunt, and so veneration of the hunt would go to Malar, not Chauntea. She is not goddess of the woodlands; veneration of the forest's bounty would go to Mielikki.




> Afro, what's your personal opinion about anti-Sigil below the Spire?


That sounds dumb.

----------


## QuickLyRaiNbow

I know canon is pretty short of things to say on unique archons, guardinals and eladrin; is there any particularly good fanon?

----------


## Bartmanhomer

> A *very* long time ago, seven martyrs to the cause of law and good were reborn on the Mount as the first tome archons, the Celestial Hebdomad. In the time between then and now, six of them have died and been replaced.
> 
> For the most part, their role doesn't distinctively involve challenging the Lords of the Nine; Barachiel oversees the defense of the first layer against incursion; Erathaol predicts major planar events; Raziel would be the vanguard general of Celestia if there was a need to lead a force off-plane for any reason; and Sealtiel ensures that the highest layer is protected from any unworthy beings attempting to enter.


What about Domiel, Pistis Sophia and Zaphkiel?  :Confused:

----------


## Bohandas

I've got a question that's been bugging me. Why is Carceri, the notorious prison plane, so comparatively easy to leave compared to places like Athas, Hades, the Plane of Dread, and even Elysium?

----------


## Lagtime

> I've got a question that's been bugging me. Why is Carceri, the notorious prison plane, so comparatively easy to leave compared to places like Athas, Hades, the Plane of Dread, and even Elysium?


It depends on what rules and what edition you use.  In 2E the plane could not be left by any means other then the Styx or natural...and rare... portals on the first layer.  

So if a PC plane shifted to Carceri, they would be stuck there unless they found a way out.

Of course, by the time of 3E, so many players whined and cried about the "unfair" stuff in D&D that they changed it to Carceri is just a place.

----------


## Yora

In Planescape, the only physical exits out of Carceri are portals to the Outlands, Hades, and the Abysss on the first layers, and taking a boat on the Styx. The portals on the first layer exist only on every fifth orb, and getting a whole party from one orb to the next can be quite a challenge. And then you also might have to cross that entire orb to make the next flight to the next orb in the line. And to make things worse, most gates are guarded.

A special rule applies in Carceri, but it doesn't really have a specific mechanic. Everyone who has been send to Carceri as a prisoner can only use the portals after they have become more powerful than the people who imprisoned them there. What specifically more powerful could mean is up to the GM case by case.

A simple _plane shift_ spell should also do the job, but being a 7th level spell is far out of reach for most people who have been exiled there.

It is relatively easy to get in and out for a typical Prime party that has become powerful enough to go on adventures throughout the planes with their own magical powers. But Planescape is designed as a setting where low and mid level characters travel the planes as well. And these people are usually completely reliant on using the portals with no access to powerful spells or magic items.
A 15th level fighter would be a very powerful opponent on a prime world, but without a 14th level cleric or wizard who comes to find him and get him out, he'd be stuck there.

----------


## afroakuma

> I know canon is pretty short of things to say on unique archons, guardinals and eladrin; is there any particularly good fanon?


There is not. TSR was lazy with these, and WotC never bothered fixing it. Not a ton of demand, you understand.




> What about Domiel, Pistis Sophia and Zaphkiel?


Domiel defends the second layer and his mandate to oppose tyranny would be pointless in the Hells, not much cause for him to go. Pistis Sophia doesn't leave her layer to go poking devils, she has other things to be on with. Zaphkiel oversees all of Mount Celestia and wouldn't go down to the front lines where he'd be leaving his charge at greater risk. All of them are boring. Note: not all three. All seven.




> I've got a question that's been bugging me. Why is Carceri, the notorious prison plane, so comparatively easy to leave compared to places like Athas, Hades, the Plane of Dread, and even Elysium?


The Doylist perspective was touched on by Lagtime and Yora; the Watsonian one is that Carceri knows who its prisoners are and are not; more importantly, it's not that Carceri doesn't want you to leave; it's that Carceri doesn't want you to be capable of escaping. Carceri has no use for a destroyed and hollowed soul like the Gray Wastes create; it doesn't want to trap you there because you've given up on being elsewhere. Carceri wants you to keep aspiring to something you can't have because you stop right before the finish line to make sure nobody else gets there. The spite, selfishness, and suspicion of Carceri are infectious in their own insidious way. Carceri is a prison whose bars are forged of one's own flaws, whose shackles are fired in the venomous certitude that *you* are *so much better* than all these other schmucks, and you just need to make sure they all get the picture before you finally given them all the laugh. It pulls you in like quicksand, until you become part of the problem and deny yourself an escape. In many ways, it's the same way that the Demiplane of Dread locks in its newest members, only Carceri wants everyone, and it doesn't so much mind if you slipped out *today*... if you've ever had cause to come to Carceri, then someday, you'll be back, one way or another, and the plane can wait.

----------


## Yora

To my knowledge, the Planescape campaign setting did not introduce any new spells to 2nd edition. But are there any 2nd edition spells that would be a big deal for a Planescape campaign, which have not been carried over to 5th edition?

Some spells from earlier editions that I found to be notably absent are the shadow spells, but I realized today that the Shadow Plane does not appear to be a thing in Planescape. Is it a new 3rd edition creation?

----------


## Tzardok

> To my knowledge, the Planescape campaign setting did not introduce any new spells to 2nd edition. But are there any 2nd edition spells that would be a big deal for a Planescape campaign, which have not been carried over to 5th edition?
> 
> Some spells from earlier editions that I found to be notably absent are the shadow spells, but I realized today that the Shadow Plane does not appear to be a thing in Planescape. Is it a new 3rd edition creation?


The Shadow Plane existed in 2e, but only as a particularly old, big and well-known Etheral demiplane. There were fanmade attempts to reinterprete it, for example as an Inner Plane lying on the point where Positive and Negative touch. It's status as a transitive plane is new in 3e.

----------


## Lagtime

> To my knowledge, the Planescape campaign setting did not introduce any new spells to 2nd edition. But are there any 2nd edition spells that would be a big deal for a Planescape campaign, which have not been carried over to 5th edition?
> 
> Some spells from earlier editions that I found to be notably absent are the shadow spells, but I realized today that the Shadow Plane does not appear to be a thing in Planescape. Is it a new 3rd edition creation?


The campaign setting boxed set had no spells in it, but the other books like the Planewalker Handbook did.  Few of the 2E Planescape spells even made it into 3E, let alone 5E.  A lot of them were very useful for planewalkers, but of little use to anyone else.  They have only been updated by fans.

The shadow plane was just the Demi Plane of Shadow back in 2E....not the big scary Shadowfall of 4E/5E.  The only shadow spells in 2E were illusion shadow spells....and few were ever converted.

----------


## Yora

Something else I've been wondering. Do people in the outer planes use calendars to track the passage of time? I believe none of the outer (or inner) planes have regular seasons, or any cycle other than day and night. And many not even that.

----------


## Tzardok

> Something else I've been wondering. Do people in the outer planes use calendars to track the passage of time? I believe none of the outer (or inner) planes have regular seasons, or any cycle other than day and night. And many not even that.


I remember a fan-made calendar for Sigil. Was invented by the Fraternity of Law to "reflect" the Wheel. I can't find the source anymore, but I think I may have my German translation saved somewhere. If you are interested, I could search for it?

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

> I remember a fan-made calendar for Sigil. Was invented by the Fraternity of Law to "reflect" the Wheel. I can't find the source anymore, but I think I may have my German translation saved somewhere. If you are interested, I could search for it?


I believe this is the one you're thinking of.

----------


## Bohandas

> 2) There is a now old game Neverwinter Nights 2 and it has a add-on named Mask of the Betrayer. It's pre 4ed and uses standard 3.5 system and cosmology. Yet, the protagonist in this game can consume souls\spirits\whatever there is of powerful creatures and even demigods or dead deities (Myrkul). 
> 
> If the player will pursue evil storyline and do evil choices the game ending will say that he became a god-killing abomination and continued eternal devouring of everything or everyone and even gods had to flee to the edges of Multiverse.
> ...
> Can a mortal receive such power?


I don't know about god _killing_, but I do know that in the Greyhawk setting the (formerly) mortal wizard Zagyg Yragerne canonically imprisoned nine low-ranking deities in his basement, as part of a (successful) plan to become divine himself. (although one of them, Iuz, doesn't count for the purpose of this question because Zagyg received direct aid from one of Iuz's divine rivals)

----------


## Tzardok

> I believe this is the one you're thinking of.


Exactly. Thank you!  :Small Big Grin: 

Also, I'd like to second the question Yora prompted: Do the Planes have seasons? Except for Arcadia (manually steered seasons that are exactly three months long) and Ysgard's first layer (more extreme versions of the normal seasons) I have no idea.

----------


## QuickLyRaiNbow

> I don't know about god _killing_, but I do know that in the Greyhawk setting the (formerly) mortal wizard Zagyg Yragerne canonically imprisoned nine low-ranking deities in his basement, as part of a (successful) plan to become divine himself. (although one of them, Iuz, doesn't count for the purpose of this question because Zagyg received direct aid from one of Iuz's divine rivals)


In the _Dragonlance Legends_ trilogy, Caramon Majere travels into the future, where his twin Raistlin has defeated first Takhsis, Queen of Darkness, then destroyed the other gods and all life on Krynn, save Astinus, the aspect of Gilean the Recorder, and Par-Salian, the former head of the Order of High Sorcery, who has been transformed into a marble statue and condemned to die as the last man on earth.  After Caramon returns to the present, Raistlin reads his mind, accepts Caramon's experience in the future as both true and the inevitable consequence of his victory, and chooses to abandon his quest for godhood and, not incidentally, be tortured by Takhsis forever*.

*admittedly, for a limited value of forever

----------


## Yora

I've found some information about the naga deities Shekinester and Parrafaire on the internet, but with no sources. Any idea where they might be from?

----------


## Tzardok

> I've found some information about the naga deities Shekinester and Parrafaire on the internet, but with no sources. Any idea where they might be from?


Shekinester seems to have been around for a long time. Monster Mythology, a 2e sourcebook, has the earliest mention. I haven't found a mention of Parrafaire outside of the 3.5 sourcebook Serpent Kingdoms, but that doesn't necessarily mean much.

----------


## Lagtime

> Also, I'd like to second the question Yora prompted: Do the Planes have seasons?


I don't think this ever really gets mentioned.  The Astral, Etherial and Elemental planes all have weather.  Divine realms can have whatever weather or seasons the deity wants.  

Other planes are not natural places like the Prime, so really they would not have "seasons", but a lot more just changing weather.  




> I've found some information about the naga deities Shekinester and Parrafaire on the internet, but with no sources. Any idea where they might be from?


2E Monster Mythology is the first mention.  After that though, there is not much.  On Hallowed Ground has a bit, as does the FR Serpent Kingdoms book.

----------


## Sharqking

Are there any named elemental cults of the para or quasi elements? I was thinking Cyronax probably has a cult, and possibly Bwimb II, but I haven't seen any reference to any elemental cults outside of the main 4 elements.

----------


## Lord Haart

> I was thinking Cyronax probably has a cult


I've heard he got so pissed that people keep mixing him up with Cryonax, he blew up Cyre.

----------


## Thurbane

There was a 1E or 2E module where a Ki-Rin owed the party a favour. Later in the module, the party were in a Negative Energy Demi Plane of some sort (sorry for the vagueness on details, this was a LONG time ago) trying to track down an artifact to kill a lich, or something similar. When we called on the Ki-Rin to help us, he said he can't travel to that plane, as his "goodness" (i.e. Positive Energy) would cause a massive explosion if he entered a Negative Dominant plane.

Now, its entirely possible none of this was written in the module, and was entirely the DM ad-libbing or home brewing. In fact, I suspect that to be the case.

*My loosely related question is:* are there any instances where a particular creature entering a particular plane would have widespread destructive consequences, such as an explosion or similar?

----------


## Efrate

There was 3.0 AP that had you do a section on the plane of ice and you meet Cyronax and he sends you to someplace to continue the adventure.  You get there I think from something cult related, but I cannot for the life of me remember it though I ran part of it at one point.  This is all kind of fever dream haze but I do remember it.

----------


## Thurbane

> Are there any named elemental cults of the para or quasi elements? I was thinking Cyronax probably has a cult, and possibly Bwimb II, but I haven't seen any reference to any elemental cults outside of the main 4 elements.


Cryonax apparently has a cult that mainly consists of "frost giants, malasyneps, evil arctic druids, and spellcasters who employ cold-based spells". Also, Yeti supposedly worship him as a god, as do an arctic offshoot of hobgoblins known as "amitoks".

This cult may or may not be known as "The Frostblood Cult".

A lot of potential Cryonax cultists are probably drawn to Thrym or Father Llymic instead.

----------


## Laughing Dog

> There was a 1E or 2E module where a Ki-Rin owed the party a favour. Later in the module, the party were in a Negative Energy Demi Plane of some sort (sorry for the vagueness on details, this was a LONG time ago) trying to track down an artifact to kill a lich, or something similar. When we called on the Ki-Rin to help us, he said he can't travel to that plane, as his "goodness" (i.e. Positive Energy) would cause a massive explosion if he entered a Negative Dominant plane.
> 
> Now, its entirely possible none of this was written in the module, and was entirely the DM ad-libbing or home brewing. In fact, I suspect that to be the case.
> 
> *My loosely related question is:* are there any instances where a particular creature entering a particular plane would have widespread destructive consequences, such as an explosion or similar?


While it wouldn't exactly be widespread destruction, having a Xag-Ya enter the Negative Energy Plane or a Xeg-Yi enter the Postive Energy Plane would probably not be something you want to stand close to.  They are composed of positive and negative energies respectively and have an annoying tendency to charge each other on "sight", causing a 30 ft  radius explosion that deals 2d8+18 points of damage.  They also otherwise do 1d8+9 points of damage upon death in a 20-ft radius if reduced to 0 hitpoints.  This comes from their listing in Manual of the Planes, pages 168 and 169.

----------


## Yron

If one were to look for pieces of the Staff of Fraz'Urb-luu, where would they look? I understand, that, given entities involved in its destruction, "literally anywhere" is probably the answer, but I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

I just have this idea of a campaign, where the PCs are agents of Fraz'Urb-luu, scouring the planes in search of the staff. Seems like a perfect planehopping adventure framework.

What powers would individual pieces possess, if found? The artifact supposedly "combines the powers of the staff of command, a rod of beguiling, and a rod of rulership". There's also the writeup in Dragon #333 that has a complete staff.

Also, are there any mentions of Sckurchur demons outside of the 3.5 Demonomicon article? They seem somewhat random and extremely niche with "imersonating halflings and gnomes" being their shtick.

----------


## Tzardok

> If one were to look for pieces of the Staff of Fraz'Urb-luu, where would they look? I understand, that, given entities involved in its destruction, "literally anywhere" is probably the answer, but I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on the matter.


Pandemonium's lowest layer, Agathion, is a nice place for stashing things you don't want found. Some of the planes with a lot of void between the "landmasses" (Carceri, Archeron, Gehenna) could have stashes far off the beaten paths. Depending on how difficult you want to make things non-standard planes that aren't easily found (like the Plane of Faerie, the Plane of Mirrors or the Cordant Planes) could also be possible.




> What powers would individual pieces possess, if found? The artifact supposedly "combines the powers of the staff of command, a rod of beguiling, and a rod of rulership". There's also the writeup in Dragon #333 that has a complete staff.


I think it depends on how many parts there are and how powerful you want them to be. The most simple way to stat them would be in my opinion to take every spell the whole thing can cast and put it on a single piece.




> Also, are there any mentions of Sckurchur demons outside of the 3.5 Demonomicon article? They seem somewhat random and extremely niche with "imersonating halflings and gnomes" being their shtick.


I didn't find anything else, but I think you misunderstand their shtick. The theme of the sckurchur is insinuating itself as a trusted advisor and then render their leader into a puppet ruler that furthers whatever agenda of chaos and evil the sckurchur has. (Also, I think their ability to prettify people at the cost of their willpower would make them popular with modelling agenturs in reality.)
The fact that they generally impersonate halflings or gnomes seems to be incidental to their shapechanging ability being restricted to their size. What other small humanoids should they disguise themselves as? Goblins?

Edit: In completely unrelated speakings, does anybody know wether the names of the layers of Gehenna, Acheron, Arkadia and the Beastlands mean anything or why they are called this?

----------


## afroakuma

> To my knowledge, the Planescape campaign setting did not introduce any new spells to 2nd edition. But are there any 2nd edition spells that would be a big deal for a Planescape campaign, which have not been carried over to 5th edition?


I'm going with a *very* soft "no" on that if only because trawling through all of the 2nd Edition spells so that I can then match them against the 5th Edition list, with which I have zero familiarity, is well out of scope for me.




> Some spells from earlier editions that I found to be notably absent are the shadow spells, but I realized today that the Shadow Plane does not appear to be a thing in Planescape. Is it a new 3rd edition creation?


As Tzardok mentioned, Shadow was a demiplane in 2nd Edition, although a rather prominent one (it's worth noting that _shadow evocation_ is slightly more potent (4th level spell cap) than _shadow magic_, its cognate from 2nd Edition). As part of the cosmic restructuring that the Lady of Pain was forced to do in the wake of Vecna's attack on Sigil, Shadow became a true Transitive Plane.




> Something else I've been wondering. Do people in the outer planes use calendars to track the passage of time? I believe none of the outer (or inner) planes have regular seasons, or any cycle other than day and night. And many not even that.


I would imagine there are methods that apply to various realms, which would also likely be the denomination for seasons in most cases. The Lower Planes all have seasons, of course, as described below:

*Spoiler: Seasons in the Lower Planes*
Show

 *Acheron*: Football and hockey
 *Baator*: By layer (Fireball and slightly less fireball; suppression and repression; dreary and horrid; summer x4; winter x4; gross and nasty; construction and road work; winter x8 somehow; and in Nessus it's all about the fall).
 *Gehenna*: Bad and worse
 *Hades*: By layer (Flu; winter and that part of spring where you're like "isn't it supposed to be spring now, though?"; summer and fall but exclusively the days where you're like "this isn't how this season is supposed to be, I hope tomorrow is better" and then it never will be)
 *Carceri*: Spring to erroneous conclusions about your neighbor's nefariousness, suimmer in discontent, fall under suspicion, and while it's never really winter you will always be getting the cold shoulder.
 *The Abyss*: By layer.
 *Pandemonium*: Tornado and hurricane.





> I've found some information about the naga deities Shekinester and Parrafaire on the internet, but with no sources. Any idea where they might be from?


Shekinester and Parrafaire originated in Monster Mythology, I believe.




> Are there any named elemental cults of the para or quasi elements? I was thinking Cyronax probably has a cult, and possibly Bwimb II, but I haven't seen any reference to any elemental cults outside of the main 4 elements.


None come to mind, though Cryonax definitely has Material Plane cults. The rest likely do not, though I suppose a cult of Sun Sing is a particularly eerie notion...




> are there any instances where a particular creature entering a particular plane would have widespread destructive consequences, such as an explosion or similar?


I mean, "widespread" no. As Not Tzardok mentioned, the only things that annihilate are energons, and it would be a tiny little fart in a vast and uncaring Energy Plane.




> If one were to look for pieces of the Staff of Fraz'Urb-luu, where would they look? I understand, that, given entities involved in its destruction, "literally anywhere" is probably the answer, but I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on the matter.


All kinds of fun places to hide things. As Tzardok noted, Pandemonium's lowest layer is a wonderful hiding place. Give one to the Sunan of the Dukhani, a valuable piece of her royal regalia that lets her see through deceptions. Sneak one into the swamps of Belierin, where the guardinals zealously protect their secrets. The sands of Pelion, the whirling ice of Ocanthus, a spell weaver tomb floating in the Ethereal Plane... 




> What powers would individual pieces possess, if found? The artifact supposedly "combines the powers of the staff of command, a rod of beguiling, and a rod of rulership". There's also the writeup in Dragon #333 that has a complete staff.


I mean, it depends how many pieces there are, and how interesting one wishes to get with them. I can finagle something if you're interested.




> Also, are there any mentions of Sckurchur demons outside of the 3.5 Demonomicon article? They seem somewhat random and extremely niche with "imersonating halflings and gnomes" being their shtick.


Nope.




> Edit: In completely unrelated speakings, does anybody know wether the names of the layers of Gehenna, Acheron, Arkadia and the Beastlands mean anything or why they are called this?


Eh, well...

*Arcadia*
 *Abellio* may have been named for a little-known Gallo-Roman pastoral deity of apple trees. When I say "may have" I mean "was."
 *Buxenus* was an epithet for the Gallo-Roman version of Mars, and indicates "of box trees."
 *Nemausus* was a deity/religious site in Celtic Occitan France.

*Acheron*
 *Avalas* may derive from French, where "aval" would indicate "downstream." Acheron is the terminus of the Styx.
 *Thuldanin* appears made up, though it's retroactively Dwarven in nature and is one of the Dwarven netherworlds.
 *Tintibulus* derives from "tintinnabulation," the sound of bells.
 *Ocanthus* derives from _acanthus_ meaning "thorned."

*The Beastlands*
 I got nothin'. Most likely made up, or else from one of the imprecise sources often employed by Gygax and his ilk in that era.

*Gehenna*
 Likewise, though I will note that *khalas* in Arabic means "enough" and Khalas is certainly bad enough without needing to go any further down.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Tzardok

> I would imagine there are methods that apply to various realms, which would also likely be the denomination for seasons in most cases. The Lower Planes all have seasons, of course, as described below:
> 
> *Spoiler: Seasons in the Lower Planes*
> Show
> 
>  *Acheron*: Football and hockey
>  *Baator*: By layer (Fireball and slightly less fireball; suppression and repression; dreary and horrid; summer x4; winter x4; gross and nasty; construction and road work; winter x8 somehow; and in Nessus it's all about the fall).
>  *Gehenna*: Bad and worse
>  *Hades*: By layer (Flu; winter and that part of spring where you're like "isn't it supposed to be spring now, though?"; summer and fall but exclusively the days where you're like "this isn't how this season is supposed to be, I hope tomorrow is better" and then it never will be)
> ...


Bwahahahahahaha!




> I mean, "widespread" no. As Tzardok mentioned, the only things that annihilate are energons, and it would be a tiny little fart in a vast and uncaring Energy Plane.


That wasn't me, for a change. That was @Laughing Dog. But it's really kind of confusing that there are now three people in this thread with that avatar.  :Small Sigh: 




> Eh, well...
> 
> *Arcadia*
>  *Abellio* may have been named for a little-known Gallo-Roman pastoral deity of apple trees. When I say "may have" I mean "was."
>  *Buxenus* was an epithet for the Gallo-Roman version of Mars, and indicates "of box trees."
>  *Nemausus* was a deity/religious site in Celtic Occitan France.
> 
> *Acheron*
>  *Avalas* may derive from French, where "aval" would indicate "downstream." Acheron is the terminus of the Styx.
> ...


Ah, that's interesting. I was assuming that Gehenna's layer were of Hebrew origin, and had a slight leaning regarding Acheron's being Greek, but, well...
Thank you for the research.

----------


## Thurbane

Well, there's definitely Seasons in the Abyss...sorry

----------


## Yron

First of all, thank you, both Tzardok and afroakuma, for wonderful responses!




> I mean, it depends how many pieces there are, and how interesting one wishes to get with them. I can finagle something if you're interested.


Oh, I'm very much interested. If it's not too much trouble.

----------


## Efrate

I remember seeing somewhere that there is a floating adamantine tower on the positive energy plane that's a gathering ground of sorts for healers/god of healings followers that study rare and weird conditions or somesuch.  Was this a random fever dream or something that actually appeared somewhere, and if it's real what do we know about it?

----------


## Thurbane

> I remember seeing somewhere that there is a floating adamantine tower on the positive energy plane that's a gathering ground of sorts for healers/god of healings followers that study rare and weird conditions or somesuch.  Was this a random fever dream or something that actually appeared somewhere, and if it's real what do we know about it?


A quick search of 3.X sources didn't find anything. I checked the usual suspects first: Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, Deities and Demigods, Epic Level Handbook, Book of Exalted Deeds, Complete Divine and Complete Champion.

Web search only found mention in a home brew setting, where there are adamantine towers on the positive energy plane where it borders with the elemental plane of earth. No mention of them being bases for healers etc.

If it doesn't exist, it sounds like a pretty awesome concept, and someone should totally head-canon it!  :Small Smile:

----------


## Efrate

I did in a previous campaign but was wondering if there was an official something.  It might have been a random one line plot hook in some book.  

The Grand Hospital
*Spoiler*
Show


On the positive energy plane there exists a floating adamantium tower that is a spot of great pilgrimage for the devotees of the Illmater.  Once you find it and gain entrance by a small teleportation circle on the ground, all manner of maladies from magical to mundane are treated by a cadre of clerics and healers of a wide variety of Faith's and of a wide variety of races.  Bealnorns(good liches) make up a large amount of functionaries but nearly  anyone with true devotion to helping others can be found volunteering. 

 Inside the positive energy exposure issue is cut off except for a few specific places where varying amounts of the plane is allowed to seep in to supercharge healing.

It has multiple floors, each with an overseer who is one of the foremost expert's on their particular floors' malady.  

The first floor is dedicated to diseased of all sorts, their contagion, effects, treatments and sources are extensively recorded and the archives are open to any for a small donation.  

The second floor is dedicated to poisons, of all varieties with areas for inhaled poison research cordoned off by various applications of walls of force.  Antivenom for nearly any poison magical or mundane are found being produced en masse for use of any who need it.

The third floor specializes is grafts, missing limbs, and other physical alterations of form that may or may not have various repercussions.

The fourth floor is similar to the third but specifically applies to supernatural and magical form altering mistakes like those who have fallen to a chaos beast.  They have had success in reverting similar cases without  using even stronger magic like limited wish.

The fifth is odd, in that it is a massive research facility and treatment center for drugs from across the multiverse.  Friends are common here and are allowed some experimentation with new products so treatments can be developed In tandem.  There is a heavy celestial presence but  curiously not a single recorded case of violence.  Ravages are tested on the fiends as part of their agreement to be able to work there.  Devils are the vast majority, and they are bound by contract.

The sixth floor deals with curses of all kinds, including hauntings.  Undead are common here as are necromancers and even hexblades.  They come to study and provide their expertise.

The seventh floor deals with mental damage caused generally by powerful magic like insanity, mind rape, or connection with the far plane.  

The eight and final floor is almost never accessed except for a few select individuals, and is under the purview of a mysterious figure called the administrator.  It is said to hold various maladies, spells, and other things so powerful and dangerous that they can only be sealed but not destroyed.  Several artifacts are known to be hidden there, as well as many more rumored.  No one outside of a select few workers have ever interacted with the administrator and few more than that have ever even ascended.

----------


## Dalmosh

Is it possible you just homebrewed a bit to flesh out The Hospice (MotP p84)?
It's not specified as adamantium but is a floating tower populated by knights and healers focused on obscure healing devotion.

----------


## Thurbane

Looking at Imprisoning Cells (the entry after The Hospice in MotP), got me thinking.

If I wanted to dispose of an "unkilliable" enemy, by physically cramming them into a box or cell, then set it adrift on a plane where it is going to take a long time, if ever, to be found - which plane would be best? Are there any better than the Positive Energy plane for this?

Assume the creature has no means to plane shift or escape its cell without external interference.

----------


## Fable Wright

> If I wanted to dispose of an "unkilliable" enemy, by physically cramming them into a box or cell, then set it adrift on a plane where it is going to take a long time, if ever, to be found - which plane would be best? Are there any better than the Positive Energy plane for this?


Is there any particular reason Carceri or the Demiplane of Imprisonment wouldn't suit your purposes?

Because if the Demiplane of Imprisonment can hold _Tharizdun_, whatever you cast adrift there ain't getting out.

----------


## Tzardok

> Looking at Imprisoning Cells (the entry after The Hospice in MotP), got me thinking.
> 
> If I wanted to dispose of an "unkilliable" enemy, by physically cramming them into a box or cell, then set it adrift on a plane where it is going to take a long time, if ever, to be found - which plane would be best? Are there any better than the Positive Energy plane for this?
> 
> Assume the creature has no means to plane shift or escape its cell without external interference.


Let me reiterate: Agathion is a wonderful place for stashing things you don't want found. For heaven's sake, they imprisoned Kezef the Chaos Hound down there!

----------


## afroakuma

Just FYI, I'm taking a brief sabbatical from various activities for a while. I hope to be back to maintaining the thread this weekend, but no guarantees at this time. I appreciate the continued interest!

----------


## Bohandas

How does Reorx fit into the larger Dwarven and Gnomish pantheons?

----------


## Thurbane

> Is there any particular reason Carceri or the Demiplane of Imprisonment wouldn't suit your purposes?
> 
> Because if the Demiplane of Imprisonment can hold _Tharizdun_, whatever you cast adrift there ain't getting out.


I'm not overly erudite with the outer planes, hence the question. I'll look into Carceri.




> Let me reiterate: Agathion is a wonderful place for stashing things you don't want found. For heaven's sake, they imprisoned Kezef the Chaos Hound down there!


Again, planes aren't my strong suit: where would I find more info on Agathion? [edit] Oh OK, a sub-plane/level of Pandemonium? [/edit]

----------


## Fable Wright

> I'm not overly erudite with the outer planes, hence the question. I'll look into Carceri.


Generally speaking, though I don't know where it'd be written in any given edition, when you _Plane Shift_ someone to Carceri, they will be forever unable to leave by any means until they're stronger than you. And if they are stronger, and don't have access to Plane Shift, it is _hard_ to get out.

----------


## Tzardok

> I'm not overly erudite with the outer planes, hence the question. I'll look into Carceri.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, planes aren't my strong suit: where would I find more info on Agathion? [edit] Oh OK, a sub-plane/level of Pandemonium? [/edit]


I would recommend the 3e Manual of the Planes as a good starting point for researching the planes; afterwards the different 2e Planescape books give a more in-depth look, esspecially on those properties that were ignored in 3.x. Pandemonium and Carceri are described in, respectively, Planes of Chaos and Planes of Conflict.
Both the mirror of planewalker.net and the Planar Questions Threads are good sources too, but have the problem of finding relevant information.

----------


## afroakuma

> Oh, I'm very much interested. If it's not too much trouble.


My mental bandwidth is lower than I anticipated when I first offered - I still plan to do it and I have a few scratch notes, but it won't be soon.  :Small Frown: 




> If I wanted to dispose of an "unkilliable" enemy, by physically cramming them into a box or cell, then set it adrift on a plane where it is going to take a long time, if ever, to be found - which plane would be best? Are there any better than the Positive Energy plane for this?
> 
> Assume the creature has no means to plane shift or escape its cell without external interference.


No end of obnoxious places to put them. Gehenna and Carceri have voids, for instance - endlessly obnoxious to just launch something into the bleakness of Outer Planar space. Agathion is great for the opposite reason, burying something in a place that's often deadly to even poke around in. Loosing the box in the bladestorm of Ocanthus, either of the energy planes, basically any negative Quasi-Elemental Plane...

Of course your problem is that ultimately there will always be methods to home in on a thing, such that nobody needs to just walk to it. Nevertheless, you can make the location pretty odious. I would *not* recommend the Demiplane of Imprisonment, if only because it might result in a worse outcome in the long run. We do not tamper with Tharizdun's prison.




> How does Reorx fit into the larger Dwarven and Gnomish pantheons?


He does not; he's not a member of either, and was originally a human deity (he still has some human followers, no less) - the minoi are the result of a curse he laid on his largest sect, and the dwarves and kender of Krynn originated due to the power of Chaos transforming minoi. Reorx has limited, though not antagonistic, relations with the dwarven and gnomish pantheons, most particularly in areas of shared interest.

----------


## Bohandas

> No end of obnoxious places to put them. Gehenna and Carceri have voids, for instance - endlessly obnoxious to just launch something into the bleakness of Outer Planar space. Agathion is great for the opposite reason, burying something in a place that's often deadly to even poke around in. Loosing the box in the bladestorm of Ocanthus, either of the energy planes, basically any negative Quasi-Elemental Plane...
> 
> Of course your problem is that ultimately there will always be methods to home in on a thing, such that nobody needs to just walk to it.


What about setting them adrift in the interstellar pholgiston? Isn't that region disconnected from the astral plane?

----------


## afroakuma

> What about setting them adrift in the interstellar pholgiston? Isn't that region disconnected from the astral plane?


It is indeed, though it could still be magically located, and spelljammers can move through it. Some kind of sargasso in the phlogiston would be considerably more obnoxious - still ways to do it, but a space boat wouldn't be one of them.

----------


## Edreyn

After someone here mentioned Carceri, I remembered what was bothering me for some time. One of lore books says, that Mercy Killers have an outpost there. Obviously there is a portal to Sigil in this prison\fortress and it can be used by Mercy Killers without problem. So, why Carceri locals won't try to siege this place? No way that this fortress could withstand an attack of a full scale army.

----------


## enderlord99

> After someone here mentioned Carceri, I remembered what was bothering me for some time. One of lore books says, that Mercy Killers have an outpost there. Obviously there is a portal to Sigil in this prison\fortress and it can be used by Mercy Killers without problem. So, why Carceri locals won't try to siege this place? No way that this fortress could withstand an attack of a full scale army.


Carceri locals couldn't make a "full scale army" precisely because they're the sort of person who is local to Carceri.

Also: portal key.

----------


## Edreyn

> Carceri locals couldn't make a "full scale army" precisely because they're the sort of person who is local to Carceri.


Won't they make even a temporary alliance for the sake of breaking free? Even demons have some kind of organization and Carceri is less chaotic.

As for portal key, I expect that whatever it is, if Mercy Killers use it all the time, it can be found inside the fortress. And with correct interrogation of prisoners, one can even find what it is exactly.

----------


## Caelestion

A portal key can be anything, even a word, emotion or memory.  Good luck emulating a memory of a place you've never been to, for instance.

As for Carceri, the people who go there are just the sort of people who will actively fight to make other people unhappy or to stop them succeeding.  Even if they did somehow make a temporary "alliance", no one would pretend that it would last long and would likely break at just the worst time or (as is more the point) just the _best_ time to backstab their "ally".

----------


## enderlord99

> Won't they make even a temporary alliance for the sake of breaking free?


 They might claim to.  They'd all be lying, if so.  Every single one.


> Even demons have some kind of organization


No they don't.  Most don't even pretend to.  The only one who _does_ pretend to organize anything is Graz'zt, who usually appears extremely organized and is never even remotely close to being anything he appears to be.


> and Carceri is less chaotic.


In much the same way that a tortoise is less slow than a sloth, yes.  Limbo and Pandemonium are both coral in the slow=chaotic analogy.

----------


## Edreyn

> Even if they did somehow make a temporary "alliance", no one would pretend that it would last long and would likely break at just the worst time or (as is more the point) just the best time to backstab their "ally".





> They might claim to. They'd all be lying, if so. Every single one.





> Even demons have some kind of organization
> 			
> 		
> 
> No they don't. Most don't even pretend to. The only one who does pretend to organize anything is Graz'zt, who usually appears extremely organized and is never even remotely close to being anything he appears to be.


I do understand and agree with this. But unlike Blood War, besieging just one single fortress is a finite goal.
As for demons organization, I meant this - stronger demons can force weaker ones to obey them, like to go and become a cannon fodder at the Blood War.
Can't something like that happen at Carceri?
All the locals need is to get to portal inside the fortress. Can't one strongest creature (Titan?) simply force others to obey, at least for a short time?

Yes, after getting inside Sigil they'll tear each other throats, and Lady won't even have to maze anyone. But can't an army of Carceri inhabitants hold even for a few days?

----------


## enderlord99

The whole *point* of Carceri is that you're trapped there by your own spite; if someone were capable of working with others well enough to get out, they wouldn't be there in the first place.

The only thing Carceri's denizens want more than to escape, is to be the *only* one who escapes.

----------


## Lagtime

> After someone here mentioned Carceri, I remembered what was bothering me for some time. One of lore books says, that Mercy Killers have an outpost there. Obviously there is a portal to Sigil in this prison\fortress and it can be used by Mercy Killers without problem. So, why Carceri locals won't try to siege this place? No way that this fortress could withstand an attack of a full scale army.


So, first, of course the Metagame reason starting with 3E, the Planes were made very safe and comfortable, along with everything else in the game.  So the "prison" part is mostly in name, as they won't put any negative rules in the book that might make a player sad or unhappy.  So the idea that a player might fail a save and be stuck on Carceri would be out of the question.  

Second, any planual place with an active portal will have traps and guards.  Safe to say that would be 100% more on a plane like Carceri.  So getting to the portal would be a chore.  Plus, anyone with the magic can also destroy the portal: and this is the ultimate deterrent.  At the first sign of an attack, they destroy the portal.  

Also 2E portals could be made with all sorts of magical effects, like say tossing anyone with out the right key 1-100 miles away on the same plane, draining life force, and so on.  3E and on dropped all this making all portals safe.

Third, also from 2E:  _ it is true that those exiled to the plane cannot simply escape even via these means. However, they can escape, should they fulfill one condition  if they become stronger than that which exiled them. This strength can take all manner of forms; purely physical, yes, but intelligence, cleverness, subterfuge, any manner of strength can do. It is this that truly encompasses the plane; only the strong deserve success. Not because they can beat everyone beneath them, but because they have beat everyone above them. Thus, if someone cannot leave Carceri, it is solely because they do not yet deserve to. And indeed, though some constantly struggle to escape Carceri and overcome their weakness._

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

> So, first, of course the Metagame reason starting with 3E, the Planes were made very safe and comfortable, along with everything else in the game.


This couldn't be further from the truth.  Firstly, the 3e rules are just as lethal and dangerous as AD&D; some things are easier (e.g. taking damage while casting lets you try to Concentrate to maintain it instead of just losing the spell) while some things are harder (e.g. monster HP is higher across the board), but in aggregate it's basically the same.  Rose-colored glasses aside, the vast majority of the stuff in 3e that AD&D players grumble about is either essentially equivalent but expressed differently (like descending vs. ascending AC), taken right out of the Player Option stuff and just not recognized by people who preferred to stick to the earlier books, or late-2e-as-commonly-houseruled because no one used the rules-as-written anyway.

Secondly and more relevantly, "make the planes accessible to lower-level characters" was Planescape's entire _raison d'etre_, so complaining that 3e made the planes too "safe and comfortable" is off-target by about 6 years.




> So the "prison" part is mostly in name, as they won't put any negative rules in the book that might make a player sad or unhappy.  So the idea that a player might fail a save and be stuck on Carceri would be out of the question.


Planescape doesn't have a "save or be stuck" effect for Carceri either, at least not in the Planescape Campaign Setting or Planes of Conflict which I just checked; Carceri is a prison for its petitioners in both editions, not just any berk who wanders by.  Elysium and Hades have Entrapping traits in both editions, though.




> Also 2E portals could be made with all sorts of magical effects, like say tossing anyone with out the right key 1-100 miles away on the same plane, draining life force, and so on.  3E and on dropped all this making all portals safe.


Nope, all the fun of Planescape portals is preserved in 3e.  See Manual of the Planes (p.21-22) and FRCS (p.59-61).

----------


## Bohandas

> No they don't.  Most don't even pretend to.  The only one who _does_ pretend to organize anything is Graz'zt


The Lords of Woe too, don;t forget them

----------


## Caelestion

> So, first, of course the Metagame reason starting with 3E, the Planes were made very safe and comfortable, along with everything else in the game.  So the "prison" part is mostly in name, as they won't put any negative rules in the book that might make a player sad or unhappy.  So the idea that a player might fail a save and be stuck on Carceri would be out of the question.


_Planescape_ was a _2nd Ed_ setting, so why bring up 3E completely asked?

----------


## Lagtime

> This couldn't be further from the truth.


Maybe you never played 2E or maybe you only played a homebrew version or something.  But a quick list would be things like poison kills, energy drain takes one or more class levels, system shock rolls, and the start of the removal of the save or die effects.

And then you had the Planescape rules for the magic item 'plus' reduction, clerics being cut off from their gods and getting few spells, and the massive spell alterations for the multiverse.




> Secondly and more relevantly, "make the planes accessible to lower-level characters" was Planescape's entire _raison d'etre_, so complaining that 3e made the planes too "safe and comfortable" is off-target by about 6 years.


Accessible and safe and comfortable are not all the same thing. Only the few complained that "every time my character goes off plane they die": the players that could not handle the more complex rules and settings.  Even just a three dimensional fight, common on the planes, is more then some player can handle.  





> Nope, all the fun of Planescape portals is preserved in 3e.  See Manual of the Planes (p.21-22) and FRCS (p.59-61).


????

The 3E rules list a couple things that might happen when a character steps through a portal safe and sound.

It does not list all the fun stuff from Planescape books like the Planewalker Handbook.  And if you want FR stuff, you can check out the portals in most Undermountain books, plus places like secrets of the magister.


Though really it all comes down to 2E was the type of game were the DM just said things and they happened, no matter how much the players did not like it.  





> _Planescape_ was a _2nd Ed_ setting, so why bring up 3E completely asked?


The thread is in the 3E/D20 subfourm.....

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

Some questions for Afro:

1) The 3e D&DG has example monotheistic and dualistic religions in the back, but I can't actually think of any cases where similar religions show up in published settings; even the Silver Flame in Eberron, which appears to be monotheistic at first glance, is syncretic with the Sovereign Host.  Do you know of any obscure settings, Spelljammer worlds, etc. that have just one or two gods, or have religions teaching that any other gods besides their one/two god(s) are fakers/demon princes/etc.?

2) Aside from the Spirit Realm of Kara Tur, the Gray and Black of Athas, and the Shadow World of Aebrynis (and kinda sorta Krynn's Ethereal Sea), are there other settings out there that have replacements for or variations on the local Ethereal and/or Shadow Planes?

3) On souls:
a) The fate of the soul after death is fairly well-defined in various materials, but the origin of souls is much less so.  Aside from the information on the Wellspring in MoI and the soul fonts in Bastion of Broken Souls, is there any other information on how souls are made, how creatures are ensouled, etc.?
b) What are souls made of?  Just pure positive energy (and, if one is using MoI, presumably a bit of essentia), or N parts positive energy to M parts belief-stuff, or...?

----

Spoilering the derail:

*Spoiler: 3e planar rules*
Show




> Maybe you never played 2E or maybe you only played a homebrew version or something.  But a quick list would be things like poison kills, energy drain takes one or more class levels, system shock rolls, and the start of the removal of the save or die effects.


Nope, I've played 1e, 2e, and a bit of BECMI, and the differences are really overblown.1e has instant-death poison, but only class D poisons kill on a failed save, and they do nothing on a successful save (which is made at +1 vs. assassins or +2 vs. anyone else); 3e has Wyvern Poison and Black Lotus Extract, which deal 4d6 Con and 6d6 Con, respectively, at nontrivial DCs.Energy drain didn't allow a save or have a delay before draining levels, true, but (A) level loss is much less impactful in AD&D when there's less level-dependent stuff and the "catch-up effect" of being lower level is much larger than in 3e, (B) 3e negative levels are much more accessible to NPCs (e.g. _enervation_) so they lose severity but make up for it in prevalence, and (C) turning undead is much stronger in AD&D so level-draining undead are not nearly as threatening in practice.  And remember how I said a lot of 3e changes were stuff people had been houseruling in AD&D for a while?  A lot of players hated AD&D energy drain _so much_ that DMs basically didn't use level-draining undead after the first or second time the party ran into them, so in practice the threat is overstated.System shock rolls were removed as a mechanic as a unification thing, since they rolled into Fort saves along with save vs. death magic and save vs. petrification, and they were removed from the _polymorph_ line and other spells because they were intended as a balancing mechanism to prevent your party fighter from being a storm giant all the time but it actually gave the PCs a bunch of effective save-or-dies (2e _polymorph other_ requires 3 rolls [save vs. spells, system shock, and Int check] to not be turned into a newt and squished, 3e _baleful polymorph_ requires just 2 [Fort save and Will save]).There are plenty of save-or-dies in 3e; don't blame 3e for what 4e and 5e did later on.  What it doesn't have nearly as many of is no-save-just-dies, which (A) were always an unfun idea, (B) mostly showed up in modules rather than sourcebooks, and (C) were, like energy drain, commonly nerfed or houseruled out due to player/DM dislike.




> And then you had the Planescape rules for the magic item 'plus' reduction, clerics being cut off from their gods and getting few spells, and the massive spell alterations for the multiverse.


Spell alterations stuck around in the form of Enhanced, Limited, and Impeded magic traits; clerics don't automatically suffer penalties for being on different planes, but in practice 90% of clerics in Planescape games (as opposed to Clueless clerics who go planeshopping) try to worship causes, elemental gods, or gods with Outlands realms and/or go out of their way to pick up power keys to avoid or strongly mitigate the issue; and magic item plus reduction was removed not to make things better for PCs but because requiring the DM to figure out where every last magic sword was forged and how many planes away the Plane of Fire was from Carceri was a real pain.




> Accessible and safe and comfortable are not all the same thing. Only the few complained that "every time my character goes off plane they die": the players that could not handle the more complex rules and settings.  Even just a three dimensional fight, common on the planes, is more then some player can handle.


Considering that 3e basically assumes everyone is flying all that time past a certain level, those players would have the same issues in 3e as well.




> ????
> 
> The 3E rules list a couple things that might happen when a character steps through a portal safe and sound.
> 
> It does not list all the fun stuff from Planescape books like the Planewalker Handbook.  And if you want FR stuff, you can check out the portals in most Undermountain books, plus places like secrets of the magister.


Again, 3e has plenty of unsafe portals.  All the one-off portals o' doom like in Undermountain were converted more or less faithfully, and the basic overviews in MotP and FRCS don't go into tons of detail on making portals with more unusual effects (beyond the most common one, teleporting a PC to one place and all their gear to another, which is indeed mentioned in those sections) because 3e has build-your-own-magic-item rules and guidelines that let you add life-draining or whatever else to them if desired.

----------


## Edreyn

> The whole *point* of Carceri is that you're trapped there by your own spite; if someone were capable of working with others well enough to get out, they wouldn't be there in the first place.
> 
> The only thing Carceri's denizens want more than to escape, is to be the *only* one who escapes.


Now this does answer my question. Thanks!




> Planescape doesn't have a "save or be stuck" effect for Carceri either, at least not in the Planescape Campaign Setting or Planes of Conflict which I just checked; Carceri is a prison for its petitioners in both editions, not just any berk who wanders by. Elysium and Hades have Entrapping traits in both editions, though.


Those who wanders by can use portals, but I read in lore books that locals always do their best to not allow anyone to use them. If they are trapped, why allow others to run away?

----------


## afroakuma

> After someone here mentioned Carceri, I remembered what was bothering me for some time. One of lore books says, that Mercy Killers have an outpost there. Obviously there is a portal to Sigil in this prison\fortress and it can be used by Mercy Killers without problem. So, why Carceri locals won't try to siege this place? No way that this fortress could withstand an attack of a full scale army.


The simplest problem, and one I've articulated before, is that true denizens of Carceri are the kind of person who would stop right before the finish line so they could turn around to flash the middle finger to everyone else. Carceri is the plane of the monologuing villain who just *has* to let slip his master plan in an attempt to make the hero even infinitesimally more miserable. It's the plane of sour grapes. Why wouldn't they go after the Mercykillers' portal, or any other known and stable one? Because it would mean accepting on some level the help of others was necessary to do what you couldn't alone, and everyone else in the multiverse is a schmuck. Not only are they all schmucks, but it's also vitally important that you let them know they are all schmucks. Gods forbid someone be allowed to be wrong on the Internet think they were in any way needed, or in any way more powerful than you.




> 1) The 3e D&DG has example monotheistic and dualistic religions in the back, but I can't actually think of any cases where similar religions show up in published settings; even the Silver Flame in Eberron, which appears to be monotheistic at first glance, is syncretic with the Sovereign Host.  Do you know of any obscure settings, Spelljammer worlds, etc. that have just one or two gods, or have religions teaching that any other gods besides their one/two god(s) are fakers/demon princes/etc.?


Lolth controls a couple of worlds where she is the only deity. There was a world depicted in a Dungeon magazine adventure ruled by a trio of deities, which is close but not quite. Jakandor might be closest; the Charonti used to worship a god of death and rebirth called Thanhotep (some few still do), while their opponents the Knorr ubiquitously follow the War Mother. They have some subordinate beliefs (hearth gods, various spirits) but only one unifying deity.




> 2) Aside from the Spirit Realm of Kara Tur, the Gray and Black of Athas, and the Shadow World of Aebrynis (and kinda sorta Krynn's Ethereal Sea), are there other settings out there that have replacements for or variations on the local Ethereal and/or Shadow Planes?


None immediately spring to mind; I'm assuming Ravenloft doesn't count, considering.




> a) The fate of the soul after death is fairly well-defined in various materials, but the origin of souls is much less so.  Aside from the information on the Wellspring in MoI and the soul fonts in Bastion of Broken Souls, is there any other information on how souls are made, how creatures are ensouled, etc.?


Bastion of Broken Souls is basically *the* source for information on preincarnate souls, which spring forth from special places in the Positive Energy Plane.




> b) What are souls made of?  Just pure positive energy (and, if one is using MoI, presumably a bit of essentia), or N parts positive energy to M parts belief-stuff, or...?


We've never been given the answer in any detail, but the heart of a soul is pure positive energy. As it changes from positive energy into a soul, it acquires what one might call an "address," a unique serial number demarcating its place in the universe as a thing separate from the energy that birthed it, which gives it an identity to the Astral conduits that will transfer it where it belongs. This process of becoming something distinctive is when a soul becomes a soul, and as its energy becomes more than the sum of its parts, it transforms from simple positive energy into the blend of essentia and positive energy that a soul is, linked to its Astral address and its temporal thread.

----------


## Edreyn

> The simplest problem, and one I've articulated before, is that true denizens of Carceri are the kind of person who would stop right before the finish line so they could turn around to flash the middle finger to everyone else. Carceri is the plane of the monologuing villain who just has to let slip his master plan in an attempt to make the hero even infinitesimally more miserable. It's the plane of sour grapes. Why wouldn't they go after the Mercykillers' portal, or any other known and stable one? Because it would mean accepting on some level the help of others was necessary to do what you couldn't alone, and everyone else in the multiverse is a schmuck. Not only are they all schmucks, but it's also vitally important that you let them know they are all schmucks. Gods forbid someone be allowed to be wrong on the Internet think they were in any way needed, or in any way more powerful than you.


Yes, I understand, thanks!

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

> Lolth controls a couple of worlds where she is the only deity. There was a world depicted in a Dungeon magazine adventure ruled by a trio of deities, which is close but not quite. Jakandor might be closest; the Charonti used to worship a god of death and rebirth called Thanhotep (some few still do), while their opponents the Knorr ubiquitously follow the War Mother. They have some subordinate beliefs (hearth gods, various spirits) but only one unifying deity.


Ah, Jakandor, I'd completely forgotten about that one, time for a wiki binge.

What worlds does Lolth control, or where could I read more about that?  I initially thought of the worlds behind the gates in Queen of the Demonweb Pits, but those worlds are under invasion by Lolth rather than controlled by her and priests on those worlds can access their own gods just fine.

A triumvirate of gods is pretty close.  Do you happen to remember which Dungeon issue that was, or a name I could search for?

----------


## Bartmanhomer

What does Chronepsis look like?

----------


## Eldan

> What does Chronepsis look like?

----------


## Bartmanhomer

> 


Ok. Thank you.  :Smile:

----------


## Fable Wright

Ye of the evil 'fro, I ask you:

How do souls interact with the Inner planes? 

Let's say that an adventurer is killed on a demiplane or elemental plane, connected to the Ethereal but with no Astral conduit. What happens when they die? Do they carry an astral conduit with them? Do they get (hypothetically) get sucked up through the Ordial Plane? Does their soul merge with the elemental plane in some manner? Do they become ghosts? And, because this question came up in a Dark Sun game, does the Grey affect the passage of the soul in this occurrance?

Likewise, _how_ do Ghosts come to manifest on the Ethereal, rather than the Astral? They are a being of pure soul; how do they manage to anchor themselves in the the plane of substance rather than belief?

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## Tzardok

> Likewise, _how_ do Ghosts come to manifest on the Ethereal, rather than the Astral? They are a being of pure soul; how do they manage to anchor themselves in the the plane of substance rather than belief?


That question sounds awefully familiar...

----------


## Bohandas

> 


I imagine him as resting atop a huge pile of HD Rosettas rather than hourglasses

----------


## Dalmosh

Tome of Magic p198 mentions a Dwarven proclivity towards Truename magic and a trend towards Truename research in Dwarven genealogy and scholarship.

How common are pure classed Truenamers in Dwarven society, and specifically what would they contribute that the much more common, prestigious and generally far more powerful Clerics would not?

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## Bohandas

Also, how do places with multiple sun gods (or multiple gods of other unitary things) that aren't affiliated with each other work? Is it like a bunch of people all messing with the thermostat? Does thy additively make the sun more sunlike? Are they merely sunlike themselves and not actually in control of the sun? Should some be assumed to be visiting gods of some _other_ sun? Are they forced to regulate different aspects of the sun, even if they are understood by mortals as simply THE sun god? Or is it a combination of some of these or something else entirely?

----------


## Bartmanhomer

I have a few questions:

1. Does Ao and Lady Of Pain have a relationship together?

2. What's Ao and Lady Of Pain alignment?

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## enderlord99

> I have a few questions:
> 
> 1. Does Ao and Lady Of Pain have a relationship together?


*NO.*



> 2. What's Ao and Lady Of Pain alignment?


Both are _probably_ True Neutral, but nobody can really be sure of that.

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## tyckspoon

> Both are _probably_ True Neutral, but nobody can really be sure of that.


The concerns of Ao and the Lady are largely orthogonal to alignment. They don't really care about Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos - they are concerned that Sigil and the Forgotten Realms run the way they want them to. So they would likely be perceived as True Neutral within the alignment quadrants, as this is the location of 'can't be bothered either way' characters as well as the lunatic 'everything must be forced into balance at all times' philosophy. If either being actually encouraged having a cult they would probably lean toward Lawful followers, as 'shut up and follow the rules' would be basically the entirety of their belief system.

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## Edreyn

The Lady is too fast to punish people and punishments are always extremely harsh. Doesn't that make her closer to Lawful and maybe Evil? At least one of those? I always imagined her as LN or LE.

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## Fable Wright

> The Lady is too fast to punish people and punishments are always extremely harsh. Doesn't that make her closer to Lawful and maybe Evil? At least one of those? I always imagined her as LN or LE.


She also doesn't transcribe her laws, and there can be some inconsistency in how she delivers itwill standing in her shadow cause you to be flayed, or ignored? Will crossing her path be ignored, or not? Why did she randomly decide to end the factions one day in a very abrupt and brutal manner without any prior warning? She's a bit too capricious to be Lawful, a bit too invested in doing good works (like maintaining a free public library) and maintaining the order of the universe _without_ stacking it to her personal benefit to be Evil, and too draconian to be Good.

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## ShurikVch

Maybe, this line from the Al-Qadim is applicable to Ao and Lady of Pain too?



> The Great Gods are neither good nor evil, lawful nor chaotic. They are beyond such matters. Bravery can be found in the most noble faris and the most black-hearted assassin, and who is Hajama to turn his ear from either of them? Individual followers or churches may be good or evil, but the Great gods are above these quibbles. This sets them apart from common gods and heathen deities, who are usually lock-stepped into their believers' alignments.

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## enderlord99

> Maybe, this line from the Al-Qadim is applicable to Ao and Lady of Pain too?


It applies to Ao (who is an Overgod, which is likely what's being referred to) but not to the Lady (who is not any sort of god)

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## ShurikVch

> Lady (who is not any sort of god)


It, probably, was already asked somewhere, but how we can be sure about it?
I mean - it's not like her statblock actually exists, thus - anything goes?..

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## tyckspoon

> It, probably, was already asked somewhere, but how we can be sure about it?
> I mean - it's not like her statblock actually exists, thus - anything goes?..


Because the Planescape cosmology assigns certain common traits to gods, as a class of beings, and the Lady does not have those traits. (The Planescape cosmology also allows for all kinds of extremely powerful beings that are Not Gods - being a god does not mean you are on top of the power scale. It means you are one of a particular class of beings that fits a group of traits. It also usually means you're pretty powerful but it's not inherent to god-hood.)

----------


## Tzardok

I've been working on and off on something inspired by this post in the seventh thread:




> Originally Posted by Tzardok
> 
> I've been re-reading the 3e version of the sha'ir and was thinking about making stats for paraelemental gens when I thought: Are gens related to the Khayal plausible? Could a sha'ir summon a shadow gen? Do the sha'ir's powers even interact with the Khayal?
> 
> 
> Sha'ir powers do not interact with the khayal, who dislike the sha'ir as they do other genies. Renegade poet-vagabonds opposed to order, the sa'alik, are the agents and arbiters who work with the khayal. A su'luk cannot be lawful. Sa'alik are said to "walk alone" because their shadows are separate from them, becoming the facilitators for a su'luk's magic in place of the sha'ir's gen. Sa'alik gain access to shadowcasting but have a more difficult time acquiring spells that do not belong to Shadow.


So now I finished the su'luk as an alternate class feature for the sha'ir. Thoughts?

*Spoiler: Su'luk*
Show


*Su'luk*
*Class:* Sha'ir
*Special Requirement:* Must not be lawful.
*Level:* 1st
*Replaces:* If you select this class feature, you don't cast spells, don't gain a Gen Familiar and do not gain the following class abilities: Elemental Protection (5th), Call Janni (7th), Elemental Travel (9th) and Call Genie (11th).
*Benefit:* Instead of a gen, you grant your own shadow life and use it as a familiar. The stats for this Umbral Familiar are found after this description.
As a su'luk, you can cast mysteries and fundamentals and a few arcane spells. You have access to all paths of shadow magic and to arcane illusion and necromancy spells from the spell list for sorcerers and wizards. Unlike shadowcasters you don't need to follow paths when choosing known mysteries. Instead you use the table of known sha'ir spells to determine how many mysteries, fundamentals and arcane spells you know.
You need to send your familiar to the Shadow Plane to fetch mysteries and spells before you can cast anything. This works by the same rules as a gen familiar fetching spells for his shair master; simply replace all mentions of "arcane spell" with "mystery" and all mentions of "divine spell" with "arcane spell". 
You cast your fundamentals as spell-like abilities and your other mysteries as arcane spells. If all mysteries of a single path are among your known mysteries, you cast those as spell-like abilities too. Spells are always cast as spells. All mysteries (both fundamentals and others) that are cast as spell-like abilities can be cast twice after being fetched before fading from your memory. The total number of mysteries/spells per day you are able to cast remains unchanged.
At 5th level you gain darkvision 60 ft. (or + 60 ft. on existing darkvision) and damage reduction 4/- against attacks made by creatures native to the Shadow Plane. Furthermore attacks against you have a 20 % miss chance as long as you are not in bright illumination.
At 7th level you may call a khayal to your aid once per day. This functions as the _planar ally_ spell except that you can call only a single khayal. You must pay the spell's XP cost and bargain with the Khayal as normal. Caster level is equal to class level. At 11th level you may use this ability twice per day.
At 9th level you can use the _shadow walk_ spell as a spell-like ability once per day. At 15th level you can use it twice per day and at 18th level at will.
At 11th level you can once per day per point of cha-mod. order your familiar to fetch a mystery that you usually cast as a spell as a spell-like ability or a mystery that you usually cast as a spell-like ability as supernatural ability. This doubles the time the familiar needs to fetch the mystery. Mysteries cast as a supernatural ability can be cast thrice after being fetched before fading from your memory.

*Spoiler: Umbral Familiar*
Show


*Umbral Familiar*
*Medium Elemental (Incorporal)*
*Hit Dice:* 1d8 (4 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* Fly 40 ft. (perfect)
*Armor Class:* 11 (+1 deflection), touch 11, flat-footed 11
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/-
*Attack:* Incorporal touch +0 melee (1d2)
*Full Attack:* Incorporal touch +0 melee (1d2)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks* -
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., elemental traits, fetch mysteries, incorporal traits, shadowy travel
*Saves:* Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str -, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12
*Skills:* Listen +5, Spot +5, Spellcraft +5
*Feats:* Combat CastingB, Improved Initiative
*Environment:* None
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* ½
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Like the master
*Advancement:* By the familiar rules
*Level Adjustment:* -

*Fetch Mysteries (Ex):* Like the gen's ability to Fetch Spells.

*Shadowy Travel (Sp):* The umbral familiar can _plane shift_ at will to the Shadow Plane or from there back to the Material Plane. This ability only transports the familiar. It is otherwise identical to the _plane shift_ spell (caster level 13th).

Note: I chose medium size because I think a living shadow should have the same size as its owner. Most sha'irs/sa'alik are humans, so...






And here, as a little extra, the paraelemental gens that caused me to ask that question in the first place. Partially inspired by the paraelemental genies Afro created here:

*Spoiler: Paraelemental gens*
Show


*Ice Gen*
*Tiny Outsider (Air, Cold, Water)*
*Hit Dice:* 1d8 (4 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 60 ft. (perfect)
*Armor Class:* 15 (+2 size, +2 dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/-9
*Attack:* Slam +5 melee (1d2-2 plus 1 cold)
*Full Attack:* Two slams +5 melee (1d2-2 plus 1 cold)
*Space/Reach:* 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks* Chill
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., elemental endurance, elemental travel, fetch spells, immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 7, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Concentration +4, Escape Artist +6, Hide +12, Knowledge (Arcane) +5, Knowledge (The Planes) +5, Listen +4, Move Silenty +4, Search +5, Spellcraft +5, Spot +4, Survival +6 
*Feats:* Combat CastingB, Weapon Finesse
*Environment:* Any elemental plane
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* ½
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Often lawful neutral
*Advancement:* 2-3 hd (tiny), 4-6 hd (small)
*Level Adjustment:* -

*Chill (Ex):* A ice gen's freezingly cold body deals 1 point of extra cold damage whenever it hits in melee, or in each round that it maintains a hold while grappling.

*Magma Gen*
*Tiny Outsider (Earth, Fire)*
*Hit Dice:* 1d8+1 (5 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 60 ft. (perfect), burrow 10 ft.
*Armor Class:* 15 (+2 size, +1 dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/-8
*Attack:* Slam +4 melee (1d2-1)
*Full Attack:* Two slams +4 melee (1d2-1)
*Space/Reach:* 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks* -
*Special Qualities:* Damage reduction 1/adamantite, darkvision 60 ft., elemental endurance, elemental travel, fetch spells, immunity to fire, vulnerability to ice
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 9, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Concentration +5, Escape Artist +5, Hide +11, Knowledge (Arcane) +5, Knowledge (The Planes) +5, Listen +4, Move Silenty +3, Search +5, Spellcraft +5, Spot +4, Survival +6 
*Feats:* Combat CastingB, Weapon Finesse
*Environment:* Any elemental plane
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* ½
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Often lawful good
*Advancement:* 2-3 hd (tiny), 4-6 hd (small)
*Level Adjustment:* -

*Ooze Gen*
*Tiny Outsider (Earth, Water)*
*Hit Dice:* 1d8+2 (6 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 20 ft.
*Armor Class:* 14 (+2 size, +1 dex, +1 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 13
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/-9
*Attack:* Slam +4 melee (1d2-2 plus 1 sound)
*Full Attack:* Two slams +4 melee (1d2-2 plus 1 sound)
*Space/Reach:* 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks* Vibrations
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., elemental endurance, elemental travel, fetch spells, immunity to sound, vulnerability to elektricity
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 7, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Concentration +6, Escape Artist +5, Hide +11, Knowledge (Arcane) +5, Knowledge (The Planes) +5, Listen +4, Move Silenty +3, Search +5, Spellcraft +5, Spot +4, Survival +6, Swim +6 
*Feats:* Combat CastingB, Weapon Finesse
*Environment:* Any elemental plane
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* ½
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Often neutral
*Advancement:* 2-3 hd (tiny), 4-6 hd (small)
*Level Adjustment:* -

*Vibrations (Su):* The ooze gens inherited from the sureshi an affinity for sound. A ooze gen deals 1 point of extra sound damage whenever it hits in melee, or in each round that it maintains a hold while grappling.

*Smoke Gen*
*Tiny Outsider (Air, Fire)*
*Hit Dice:* 1d8+1 (5 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 70 ft. (perfect)
*Armor Class:* 15 (+2 size, +2 dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/-9
*Attack:* Slam +5 melee (1d2-2)
*Full Attack:* Two slams +5 melee (1d2-2)
*Space/Reach:* 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks* -
*Special Qualities:* Billow, darkvision 60 ft., elemental endurance, elemental travel, fetch spells, immunity to fire, vulnerability to ice
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 7, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Concentration +5, Escape Artist +6, Hide +12, Knowledge (Arcane) +5, Knowledge (The Planes) +5, Listen +4, Move Silenty +4, Search +5, Spellcraft +5, Spot +4, Survival +6 
*Feats:* Combat CastingB, Weapon Finesse
*Environment:* Any elemental plane
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* ½
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Often chaotic evil
*Advancement:* 2-3 hd (tiny), 4-6 hd (small)
*Level Adjustment:* -

*Billow (Su):* Once per round as an immediate action, a smoke gen may allow its physical form to briefly billow out as a cloud of smoke, becoming insubstantial, in response to an attack directed against it. That attack fails to affect the smoke gen. Certain effects which manipulate air or gases (gust of wind, etc.) cannot be effectively avoided in this fashion and take full effect as normal. The smoke gen must be aware of the attack to be able to billow. Any time a smoke gen would be denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, it cannot billow.

Notes: The existence of paraelemental gens makes the Elemental Protection class feature of the sha'ir a bit complicated. For one, if the ooze gen is immun to sound, Elemental Protection should also grant resistence to sound and a bonus to saves against attacks based on sound. 
More importantly, Elemental Protection grants a damage reduction against attacks by creatures of the four elemental subtypes, with a higher damage reduction against the gen familiar's elemental subtype. As paraelemental gens have two elemental subtypes, this would make them more useful than normal gens.
For balancing I'm thinking of either choosing one of the two subtypes or loosing the lesser damage reduction against the two other subtypes. Thoughts?
Finally, I'm not sure wether Billow is too strong an ability for the smoke gen. The problem is, I'm not sure how to weaken it, I don't want to copy the ability of another gen and I would like to reflect the dukhan genie in some way and the only other ability unique to that one is smokesight, which appears too weak compared to the abilities of the other gens.

----------


## Edreyn

I have some new questions.

1) I know there are 9 races\types of outsiders defined by 9 standard alignments. I also know that each evil plane has its own denizens. But are there unique native outsiders to planes that are "in-between" alignment-wise: Bytopia, Beastlands, Arcadia, Acheron, Ysgard and Pandemonium?

2) For some planes, I can't really understand the difference between petitioners and mortals residing there. Specifically Bytopia and Acheron. Most of Bytopia residents are gnomes and dwarves, mortal races that love this place and also petitioners have similar forms and even similar life style. Pretty much the same is with Acheron, but with goblinoids instead of gnomes. So, if someone visits one of those planes, how he would distinguish between a mortal resident and a petitioner?

3) Rilmani have been mentioned quite a lot here. But if finding about other outsiders is relatively easy, I don't have any info on those. Where I can read about them? I don't mean stats, I am much more interested in lore, like how they usually behave, how they are organized, how their government looks like, how they treat outsiders, what relation they have to Blood War etc.

Thank in advance!

----------


## Tzardok

> I have some new questions.
> 
> 1) I know there are 9 races\types of outsiders defined by 9 standard alignments. I also know that each evil plane has its own denizens. But are there unique native outsiders to planes that are "in-between" alignment-wise: Bytopia, Beastlands, Arcadia, Acheron, Ysgard and Pandemonium?


I'll assume that you mean big races on par with the exemplars or at least the gereleth. Otherwise your question can be answered simply by looking into a Planescape bestiary.
The answer is no. Afro once tried to create such big races for all the in-between planes, and if you know where to look you may find his write-up of the Lamenti, his version of a Pandemonium race, in the archives of this forum. But he stalled, because he couldn't find a clear inspiration for most of those planes. Seems like the gereleth stay the exception, not the rule.



> 2) For some planes, I can't really understand the difference between petitioners and mortals residing there. Specifically Bytopia and Acheron. Most of Bytopia residents are gnomes and dwarves, mortal races that love this place and also petitioners have similar forms and even similar life style. Pretty much the same is with Acheron, but with goblinoids instead of gnomes. So, if someone visits one of those planes, how he would distinguish between a mortal resident and a petitioner?


I am unclear what the question is here. Do you find it confusing that on some planes/divine realms petitioners take the appearance that they had when alive? Are you wondering why living gnomes/whatever are drawn to the same places as dead ones? Or do you want to know how to differentiate between living beings and petitioners in general?




> 3) Rilmani have been mentioned quite a lot here. But if finding about other outsiders is relatively easy, I don't have any info on those. Where I can read about them? I don't mean stats, I am much more interested in lore, like how they usually behave, how they are organized, how their government looks like, how they treat outsiders, what relation they have to Blood War etc.
> 
> Thank in advance!


This question I will defere to someone who knows the Planescape books better than I do. If I had to guess I would think that Planes of Conflict would be a good start. IIRC the Rilmani got of all the exemplars the least amount of material in 2e, so you won't find a lot.

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## ShurikVch

> Because the Planescape cosmology assigns certain common traits to gods, as a class of beings, and the Lady does not have those traits.


Such as?..
No, I'm serious: Demogorgon is a god in Planescape, but Doresain - isn't.
So, how we can be sure?.. 





> 1) I know there are 9 races\types of outsiders defined by 9 standard alignments. I also know that each evil plane has its own denizens. But are there unique native outsiders to planes that are "in-between" alignment-wise: Bytopia, Beastlands, Arcadia, Acheron, Ysgard and Pandemonium?


Bytopia:
Adamantine Dragon (_Dragon_ #321)
Fire Gnome (_Planar Handbook_)
(2E) Ethyk (_Planes of Conflict_/_Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three_)
(2E) Ni'iath (_Planes of Conflict_)

Beastlands:
Beast Dragon (_Dragon_ #321)
Celestial Wyvern
Dread Blossom Swarm (_Monster Manual III_)
Gaspar (_Planar Handbook_)
Hollyphant (_Book of Exalted Deeds_)
Kadtanach (_Dungeon_ #100)
Spirit of the Wild (_Dungeon_ #148)
Wild Hunter
Xap-Yaup Energon (_Planar Handbook_)
(2E) Animal Lords - Cat, Hawk, Lizard, Wolf (_Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix_/_Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix_)
(2E) Aeserpent (_Planes of Conflict_)
(2E) Asrai (_Planes of Chaos_)
(2E) Mortai (_Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II_/_Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix_)
(2E) Oread (_Planes of Chaos_)
(2E) Warden Beast (_Planes of Conflict_/_Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix_)

Arcadia:
Arcadian Avenger (_Monster Manual V_)
Chaturani - Pawn, Knight, Bishop, Rook, Queen, King (_Dragon_ #358)
Guardian Familiar (_Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene_)
Rhek (_Book of Exalted Deeds_)
(2E) Busen (_Planes of Law_)
(2E) Formian - Worker, Warrior, Myrmarch, Queen (_Planes of Law_/_Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three_)
(2E) T'uen-rin (_Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II_/_Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix_)

Acheron:
Achaierai
Aspect of Hextor (_Miniatures Handbook_)
Axiomatic Dragonne (_Planar Handbook_)
Bladeling (_Lord of the Iron Fortress_)
Bonespear (_Fiend Folio_)
Chronotyryn (_Fiend Folio_)
Justicator (_Monster Manual III_)
Maug (_Fiend Folio_)
Reth Dekala (_Tome of Battle_)
Rust Dragon (_Draconomicon_)
Siege Beetle (_Monster Manual V_)
Steelwing (_Monster Manual V_)
Steel Predator (_Fiend Folio_)
Xong-Yong Energon (_Planar Handbook_)
(2E) Fhorge (_Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II_)
(2E) Hook Spider (_Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II_)
(2E) Observer (_Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II_)
(2E) Sword Spirit (_Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II_)
(1E) Sugo (_Dragon_ #47)

Ysgard:
Aspect of Kord (_Miniatures Handbook_)
Bariaur (_Book of Exalted Deeds_/_Planar Handbook_)
Battle Dragon (_Draconomicon_)
Fensir (_Fiend Folio_)
Lillend
Valkyrie (_Tome of Battle_)
(2E) Asrai (_Planes of Chaos_)
(2E) Oread (_Planes of Chaos_)

Pandemonium:
Bloodthorn (_Fiend Folio_)
Empathos (_Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene_)
Garngrath (_Monster Manual V_)
Hordlings (_Dungeon_ #124)
Howling Dragon (_Draconomicon_)
Howler
Mivilorn (_Monster Manual III_)
Windblades (_Monster Manual IV_)
(2E) Darkweaver (_Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II_)
(2E) Murska (_Planes of Chaos_)
(2E) Miska the Wolf-Spider (_Rod of Seven Parts_)
(1E) Mapmaker (_Dragon_ #47)




> 3) Rilmani have been mentioned quite a lot here. But if finding about other outsiders is relatively easy, I don't have any info on those. Where I can read about them? I don't mean stats, I am much more interested in lore, like how they usually behave, how they are organized, how their government looks like, how they treat outsiders, what relation they have to Blood War etc.


They're in the _Fiend Folio_ and _Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II_

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## Tzardok

> Such as?..
> No, I'm serious: Demogorgon is a god in Planescape, but Doresain - isn't.
> So, how we can be sure?..


Demogorgon isn't a deity. He is a demon lord. Doresain, on the other hand, is a deity, at least since 3.5 (I know a write up of him in 3.0 that isn't a god).

Among the qualities every deity has in Planescape are the ability to grant spells to worshippers, having a portfolio (an aspect of reality they have power over that is of importance for their Material Plane worshippers) and the fact that they starve and die when they aren't worshipped.
The Lady lacks all those qualities (well, technically we don't know that she can't grant divine spells. We only know that she never ever does.) The Lady doesn't die of lack of belief, oh no. Instead, she kills everyone who dares to try to worship her. Furthermore, she doesn't have any discernible portfolio. Her only area of interest is, what, Sigil and keeping gods and similiarly powerful things out? How is that in any way usefull as a portfolio?
I'm sure if we think about it we can find other qualities of deityhood that don't apply to the Lady, but those should be enough.

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## ShurikVch

> Demogorgon isn't a deity. He is a demon lord.


Monster Mythology disagreeing with you there...




> Doresain, on the other hand, is a deity, at least since 3.5 (I know a write up of him in 3.0 that isn't a god).


Doresain was a boss in the "Kingdom of the Ghouls" adventure (_Dungeon_ #70)
It's the ultimate proof he wasn't a deity back then: in the 2E, even the weakest deity in the game could wipe the floor with a party of arbitrary high level and numbers




> Among the qualities every deity has in Planescape are the ability to grant spells to worshippers


As you mentioned below, "doesn't ≠ couldn't"
But let me point also: people who worship Lady on the Planes getting their spells just fine...




> having a portfolio (an aspect of reality they have power over that is of importance for their Material Plane worshippers)


Just because we unaware of her portfolio, it doesn't mean she don't have one




> and the fact that they starve and die when they aren't worshipped.


This part always was inconsistent:
Who the heck worships Elemental deities? Yet they're not just don't starving, but, actually, among the strongest...
Deities such as Gorellik and Ramenos are practically not worshiped at all. While neither of them are "fine", they're still not "starved to death" yet...
Orcus managed to be a deity with just *one* worshiper (Quah-Nomag)!
Also, if lack of worshipers makes deities weaker, then why Tharizdun is still the strongest god ever? And why Doresain isn't Overgod yet - with his untold billions of worshipers?
Let alone the Mythos deities...

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## Fable Wright

> Doresain was a boss in the "Kingdom of the Ghouls" adventure (_Dungeon_ #70)
> It's the ultimate proof he wasn't a deity back then: in the 2E, even the weakest deity in the game could wipe the floor with a party of arbitrary high level and numbers


I believe Libris Mortis had the full story of Doresain. Long story short, he ascended after that adventure. He's a demigod now.




> As you mentioned below, "doesn't ≠ couldn't"
> But let me point also: people who worship Lady on the Planes getting their spells just fine...


There are no people who worship the Lady of Pain on the planes. There are a few flayed corpses lying around from people who tried, though. Her reach is not limited to Sigil.




> Just because we unaware of her portfolio, it doesn't mean she don't have one
> 
> 
> This part always was inconsistent:
> Who the heck worships Elemental deities? Yet they're not just don't starving, but, actually, among the strongest...
> Deities such as Gorellik and Ramenos are practically not worshiped at all. While neither of them are "fine", they're still not "starved to death" yet...
> Orcus managed to be a deity with just *one* worshiper (Quah-Nomag)!
> Also, if lack of worshipers makes deities weaker, then why Tharizdun is still the strongest god ever? And why Doresain isn't Overgod yet - with his untold billions of worshipers?
> Let alone the Mythos deities...


Firstcanonically, per Libris Mortis, most of Doresain's worship gets stolen by Yeenoghu, IIRC, and not all ghouls worship him. Also, the prayers of undead are weaker, at least according to what I remember of afrocanon, than those of living souls. What with, you know. Their souls not entirely being in it.
Secondthere are entities that are powerful in their own right that become gods. Demon princes ascend to godhood and are no less powerful for low numbers of worshippers. This may be the case of the Elemental deities and was definitely the case with Orcus. Or they might just get a tithe of all worship thanking the gods for the elements. It's unclear. This can cause a god with almost no worship to be stronger than deities with stronger worship, based on preexisting power.
ThirdWe don't know what Tharizdun _is_ exactly. It could be something beyond a god that can only be understood in terms of deific power. He does not come from the same cloth as other gods, as anyone else should have starved by now for lack of worship. I find it possible that Tharizdun and the Lady of Pain could be the same kind of entity. But it should be emphasized Tharizdun is very, *very* different beast than a normal deity. We categorize him as a god because he can grant spells and has power that can dwarf divine abilities without worship. The Lady has the latter, and we don't know about the former.

If you want to do a campaign on the Lady being a deity, or... whatever Tharizdun is? Great! But canonically, none of the Factions in Planescape would dare consider her a deity. That's just the canon stance for the time being.

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## ShurikVch

> There are no people who worship the Lady of Pain on the planes. There are a few flayed corpses lying around from people who tried, though. *Her reach is not limited to Sigil.*


 :Small Confused:  Source?




> But it should be emphasized Tharizdun is very, *very* different beast than a normal deity. We categorize him as a god because he can grant spells and has power that can dwarf divine abilities without worship. The Lady has the latter, and we don't know about the former.


Who Would Win?: Tharizdun vs Lady of Pain
(winner would fight vs Pandorym  :Small Amused: )

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## Fable Wright

> Source?


At the end of _Die, Vecna Die!_ she restructured the entire order of the multiverse as the official canon reason for the tradition to 3e rules from 2e. If she has the power to change the underlying mechanics of the universe, across all the Inner and Outer planes, I'm _pretty_ sure she's able to smite a worshipper outside of Sigil.

Oh, and there was that time when she just straight-up murdered Aoskar despite (like every other deity) Aoskar being unable to enter the Cage.

If she can kill a god on his home plane without warning or notice, odds are she can do the same for mortals trying to worship her outside Sigil.

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## afroakuma

> Who Would Win?: Tharizdun vs Lady of Pain


If for some odd reason she had to deal with him, the Lady of Pain would win that one. 




> (winner would fight vs Pandorym )


She'd win that one too.

Sorry I've been away, everyone. Will revisit questions I have missed, hopefully throughout the week. Life has been... well, I can't imagine life *hasn't* been a special experience for anyone this year, so I'll just thank everyone who's still been around and discussing stuff.

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## ShurikVch

> At the end of _Die, Vecna Die!_ she restructured the entire order of the multiverse as the official canon reason for the tradition to 3e rules from 2e. If she has the power to change the underlying mechanics of the universe, across all the Inner and Outer planes, I'm _pretty_ sure she's able to smite a worshipper outside of Sigil.


Note: events of _Die, Vecna Die!_ weren't accepted by certain part of Planescape fans: for them, it's Planescape version of Elseworlds
But otherwise - OK...




> Oh, and there was that time when she just straight-up murdered Aoskar despite (like every other deity) Aoskar being unable to enter the Cage.
> 
> If she can kill a god on his home plane without warning or notice, odds are she can do the same for mortals trying to worship her outside Sigil.


Yes, Aoskar's story is rather interesting...

But I found one more (unexpected) point in favor of my interpretation:



> The Lady of Pain is one of the primary figures of the Planescape campaign setting. She is an immensely powerful being who protects the city of Sigil from outside forces. Despite being at least as powerful as any known deity, she accepts no followers and is known to respond to those who try to worship her with extreme violence (although strangely, not people who worship her *in secret*. There is *at least one* person in Sigil who secretly is a petitioner of The Lady whom she *hasn't destroyed*). While most Cagers don't like to invoke her name lightly, the phrase "Her Serenity" is commonly used to refer to the Lady of Pain.

----------


## afroakuma

1d4chan is not any kind of primary source; Hashkar is a petitioner, yes, but the notion that he is a petitioner of the Lady is a rumor, as indicated in _Faction War_.  Furthermore, it is entirely possible to be a petitioner without the anchor point being a deity. The Lady of Pain is not a god of any kind.




> How do souls interact with the Inner planes?


Unless there's a divine realm they belong in, they generally don't.




> Let's say that an adventurer is killed on a demiplane or elemental plane, connected to the Ethereal but with no Astral conduit. What happens when they die?


Long road. Through the Ethereal to its nearest Astral contact point, then into the Astral to get where they belong. If there is no valid contact somehow, they get stuck (this is what happens around Athas). It should be noted that the elemental nodes of Athas *do* have conduits to the broader Elemental Planes, so if you die while in one of them, you *should* get out just fine.




> Do they get (hypothetically) get sucked up through the Ordial Plane?


Definitely not.




> Likewise, _how_ do Ghosts come to manifest on the Ethereal, rather than the Astral? They are a being of pure soul; how do they manage to anchor themselves in the the plane of substance rather than belief?


We've done that one before; short answer is that ghosts resist the pull of the Astral by anchoring themselves to the Ethereal, and until they're willing to release that anchor, they can't pass on. 




> How common are pure classed Truenamers in Dwarven society, and specifically what would they contribute that the much more common, prestigious and generally far more powerful Clerics would not?


Not tremendously common, and as noted they would be involved in genealogy and history, recordkeeping and scholarship. Less community-oriented than dwarven clerics, more behind-the-scenes. Dwarves have long memories and would archive the truenames of enemies as secret weapons that can be wielded when absolutely necessary, since truenaming is, you know... mechanically abysmal.




> Also, how do places with multiple sun gods (or multiple gods of other unitary things) that aren't affiliated with each other work? Is it like a bunch of people all messing with the thermostat? Does thy additively make the sun more sunlike? Are they merely sunlike themselves and not actually in control of the sun? Should some be assumed to be visiting gods of some _other_ sun? Are they forced to regulate different aspects of the sun, even if they are understood by mortals as simply THE sun god? Or is it a combination of some of these or something else entirely?


In general, gods who share a portfolio cannot share territory; syncretism or redefinition can result, both unfortunate outcomes for a deity. Nobody wants to be the sun god who represents just the dusk and nothing else, but that tends to be how such things end up going - one god gets treated as a more specific, specialized, and lower-scope power than the other, with commensurate impact on worshiper base and, given a large enough timescale, personal nature and abilities.




> I have a few questions:
> 
> 1. Does Ao and Lady Of Pain have a relationship together?


No.




> 2. What's Ao and Lady Of Pain alignment?


Functionally true neutral. Neither of them has a use for being measured in such terms.




> I have some new questions.
> 
> 1) I know there are 9 races\types of outsiders defined by 9 standard alignments. I also know that each evil plane has its own denizens. But are there unique native outsiders to planes that are "in-between" alignment-wise: Bytopia, Beastlands, Arcadia, Acheron, Ysgard and Pandemonium?


Oh each plane has lots of unique local wildlife, but not entire exemplar races in the fashion of the main nine. I considered the idea, as Tzardok pointed out, but ultimately didn't care for it.




> 2) For some planes, I can't really understand the difference between petitioners and mortals residing there. Specifically Bytopia and Acheron. Most of Bytopia residents are gnomes and dwarves, mortal races that love this place and also petitioners have similar forms and even similar life style. Pretty much the same is with Acheron, but with goblinoids instead of gnomes. So, if someone visits one of those planes, how he would distinguish between a mortal resident and a petitioner?


It can be difficult at times, but there are a few things that would set them apart - petitioners (with few select and specific exceptions) cannot learn, change, or grow, and often display a singlemindedness to their existence. They also have outsider traits, do not require sustenance or sleep, are planar committed, and possess very little ability compared to the living (being reset to functionally 1st level permanently). One of the most evident traits, however, is that petitioners, while generally *aware* of their identities, are a bit mentally checked out from them - you'd need to remind one to think about having had a name or a life.




> 3) Rilmani have been mentioned quite a lot here. But if finding about other outsiders is relatively easy, I don't have any info on those. Where I can read about them? I don't mean stats, I am much more interested in lore, like how they usually behave, how they are organized, how their government looks like, how they treat outsiders, what relation they have to Blood War etc.


Very very limited, there... I suppose the Planescape Monstrous Compendium II would be your best source.

----------


## Edreyn

Thank you for the detailed answer. Also, thanks to others who replied. Afroakuma's answer about petitioners is actually what I was looking for. Same about "in-between" planes inhabitants - I was asking about major known races, not about generic (for planes) creatures.

One more question about petitioners and outsiders: Modrons, are they petitioners or outsiders or maybe even both?

----------


## enderlord99

> Thank you for the detailed answer. Also, thanks to others who replied. Afroakuma's answer about petitioners is actually what I was looking for.
> 
> One more question about petitioners and outsiders: Modrons, are they petitioners or outsiders or maybe even both?


Outsiders.

----------


## Edreyn

> Thank you for the detailed answer. Also, thanks to others who replied. Afroakuma's answer about petitioners is actually what I was looking for.
> 
> One more question about petitioners and outsiders: Modrons, are they petitioners or outsiders or maybe even both?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Outsiders


Then who\what are Mechanus petitioners and how they look and act?

----------


## Bohandas

> At the end of _Die, Vecna Die!_ she restructured the entire order of the multiverse as the official canon reason for the tradition to 3e rules from 2e. If she has the power to change the underlying mechanics of the universe, across all the Inner and Outer planes, I'm _pretty_ sure she's able to smite a worshipper outside of Sigil.


I thought it was Vecna who reordered the multiverse. (or possibly even just the side-effects of whatever he did to break the wards on Sigil and the Demiplane of Dread that reordered the multiverse)

And being able to strike down anyone who speaks their name or holds their symbol is a bog standard divine power. _Hand of Death_ doesn't even have a prerequisite.

EDIT:
And what exactly happened with Aoskar? I always he assumed that he was struck down while trying to enter the city.

----------


## Tzardok

> I thought it was Vecna who reordered the multiverse.


Nope. Vecna got in, wrecked **** just by being there, and when he was beat down the Lady did the reordering to repair the harm Vecna did.

----------


## ShurikVch

Then, again - she didn't, actually, killed Vecna.
Why?




> 1d4chan is not any kind of primary source; Hashkar is a petitioner, yes, but the notion that he is a petitioner of the Lady is a rumor, as indicated in _Faction War_.  Furthermore, it is entirely possible to be a petitioner without the anchor point being a deity. The Lady of Pain is not a god of any kind.


You see, Lady of Pain always was more plot device than actual character
Thus, her nature was left deliberately vague: there is just *no* actual story for her
Unfortunately, such vagueness leave limitless field to speculations - their rebuttal is: "Prove she isn't!.."
When I read the theory: "Lady of Pain is six squirrels in a dress with Ring of Levitation", I decided to try my hand there too
Instead inventing something completely outlandish, I decided to attack one of rather well-known - but, nevertheless (AFAIK) not directly stated in a RAW form - presumptions: "Lady of Pain is not a deity"

Oh, she don't likes her followers?
Well, guess who else don't like their followers?
Ao!
Is he not a god now too?  :Small Amused: 

My *real* point there is:
When we take some great mystery, about which almost nothing is known - every new bit of info is chipping from that mystery.
Let's compare:
"SCP-055 is not a sphere."
"Lady of Pain is not a deity."

Thus, unless some book states in no-nonsense terms "Lady of Pain is not ...", we can speculate unrestrained:
Squirrels?
Daughter of Poseidon?
Sure, why not?!..
"Prove she isn't!.."  :Small Wink: 




> She'd win that one too.


Pandorym is able to destroy the Multiverse;
Lady of Pain is a part of the Multiverse;
Thus - Pandorym is able to destroy Lady of Pain.
And Dark Powers of Ravenloft too.
(And Ao...)

----------


## Edreyn

My own opinion, of course not supported with anything, that the Lady is the one who created Multiverse, then chose her own corner to watch over the children in the sandbox. She isn't deity, she is *above* deities.

----------


## Efrate

She has power rivalling that of Ao at least.  Again power =/= godhood however.

----------


## Tzardok

> Then, again - she didn't, actually, killed Vecna.
> Why?


Another question that has been answered a few times.




> Oh, she don't likes her followers?
> Well, guess who else don't like their followers?
> Ao!
> Is he not a god now too?


Of course. Ao is no god. He is an overgod. That's a completely different thing. Overgods are entities that steward material worlds and control, for example, under what limitations and privileges gods operate in their specific sphere. Overgods do not need or want worship, and unless there is a major ****-up, you'll never even notice that they do their job. We know the names of two overgods: Ao and the High Lord of Krynn. We have no idea how many others are there.




> Pandorym is able to destroy the Multiverse;
> Lady of Pain is a part of the Multiverse;
> Thus - Pandorym is able to destroy Lady of Pain.
> And Dark Powers of Ravenloft too.
> (And Ao...)


Elder Evils massively overstates the threat range of everything in it. Pandorym is the most powerful thing in there, and it will at best kill a few gods and do a lot of damage to the world of the sphere it is in before it is beaten down by something bigger and badder. I mean, Afro said just eight posts over your own that the Lady would destroy it if they fought.




> My own opinion, of course not supported with anything, that the Lady is the one who created Multiverse, then chose her own corner to watch over the children in the sandbox. She isn't deity, she is *above* deities.


My personal opinion is that the Lady is the incarnation of the concept of the Bigger Fish. She exists to remind us that no matter how powerful and high up on the cosmological scale something or someone is, there will always be something that can stomp it.

----------


## ShurikVch

> Elder Evils massively overstates the threat range of everything in it. Pandorym is the most powerful thing in there, and it will at best kill a few gods and do a lot of damage to the world of the sphere it is in before it is beaten down by something bigger and badder. I mean, Afro said just eight posts over your own that the Lady would destroy it if they fought.


Complete immunity to any form of magic (except for _Gate_ spell)Divinity nullificationAll which touch it is destroyedTry again!  :Small Tongue: 




> Another question that has been answered a few times.


It's all answers without *the* answer
I read it all, but still don't see why Vecna is still OK, but Aoskar is dead
(Aside from "DVD is non-canon")

----------


## Tzardok

> Complete immunity to any form of magic (except for _Gate_ spell)Divinity nullificationAll which touch it is destroyedTry again!


Yes, thank you for telling us how Elder Evil overstates things (besides the divinity nullification, not even Elder Evil mentions it). As I said, as soon as it tries to pick a fight with one of the real baddies like the Lady, Tharizdun or, god forbid, a sleeping Draeden, it is a smear on the wall. Heck, Pandorym's stats don't even include a planeshifting ability, so it's likely that it just goes up to the crystal sphere and can't get out (if spheres of annihilation can destroy crystal spheres, I'll eat my hat).




> It's all answers without *the* answer
> I read it all, but still don't see why Vecna is still OK, but Aoskar is dead
> (Aside from "DVD is non-canon")


Here, let me quote the specific part of the linked post:



> The Lady can't show him the door because he got in with enough strength to push back against as much force as she's able to personally exert without escalating the conflict to a level that would instantly sunder the multiverse. If she had elected to step it up, Vecna would be dust before he could blink.


I am not sure what else you want.

----------


## Bohandas

> Nope. Vecna got in, wrecked **** just by being there, and when he was beat down the Lady did the reordering to repair the harm Vecna did.


"_Even with Vecnas removal, his time in the crux effected change in superspace. Though the Lady of Pain attempts to heal the damage, the turmoil spawned by Vecnas time in Sigil cannot be entirely erased._" -Die Vecna Die pg151

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## ShurikVch

> Of course. Ao is no god. He is an overgod. That's a completely different thing. Overgods are entities that steward material worlds and control, for example, under what limitations and privileges gods operate in their specific sphere. Overgods do not need or want worship, and unless there is a major ****-up, you'll never even notice that they do their job. We know the names of two overgods: Ao and the High Lord of Krynn. We have no idea how many others are there.


Excuse me, but overgod is still a god
Divine Ranks:



> *Rank 21+*
> These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.






> Heck, Pandorym's stats don't even include a planeshifting ability, so it's likely that it just goes up to the crystal sphere and can't get out (if spheres of annihilation can destroy crystal spheres, I'll eat my hat).


 :Small Confused: 
"Pandorym's stats"?
Gee, *what* stats?
Let me remind you: three biggest Elder Evils in the book - Atropus, Leviathan, and Pandorym - are have *no* listed stats!  :Small Big Grin: 
(Because, if they're, actually, appeared - then you're already lost)
If by the "Pandorym's stats" you meant "Mind Shard of Pandorym" - then let me enlighten you: it's not the whole power of Pandorym; actually, it part is so infinitesimal to the "big whole" - Pandorym can have unlimited amount of Shards without becoming weaker in any notable manner

The "divinity nullification", while not stated directly, is strongly implied: Pandorym agreed to kill the gods.
And not just one or two - all the gods without exception.
To try it without having any means to negate their divinity is as stupid as hunting bears while being unable to put a bear down
And, judging by the fact gods were, actually, afraid - threat was completely real




> Here, let me quote the specific part of the linked post:
> 
> I am not sure what else you want.


Just as I said: answer without explanation - why killing the strongest "normal" god of the Multiverse (i. e. "strongest, but still no overgod") didn't caused Multiverse to fall apart?

----------


## Bohandas

> My personal opinion is that the Lady is the incarnation of the concept of the Bigger Fish. She exists to remind us that no matter how powerful and high up on the cosmological scale something or someone is, there will always be something that can stomp it.


I tend to imagine Zagyg as the biggest fish. He kidnapped the gods and held them in his basement, and perhaps more importantly he's essentially a representation of Gygax' role as the first DM.




> ThirdWe don't know what Tharizdun _is_ exactly. It could be something beyond a god that can only be understood in terms of deific power. He does not come from the same cloth as other gods, as anyone else should have starved by now for lack of worship. I find it possible that Tharizdun and the Lady of Pain could be the same kind of entity. But it should be emphasized Tharizdun is very, *very* different beast than a normal deity. We categorize him as a god because he can grant spells and has power that can dwarf divine abilities without worship. The Lady has the latter, and we don't know about the former.
> 
> If you want to do a campaign on the Lady being a deity, or... whatever Tharizdun is? Great! But canonically, none of the Factions in Planescape would dare consider her a deity. That's just the canon stance for the time being.


IIRC Dragon Magazine made Tharizdun a greater power. 

Also, Tharizdun does have worshippers. The cult of Elemental Evil worships him. Or at least the factions that don't worship Iuz, Zuggtmoy, or Lolth do at any rate

----------


## afroakuma

> Then who\what are Mechanus petitioners and how they look and act?


Depends on a number of things - the petitioners of any given divine realm will look an act as determined by that deity, and even petitioners on particular cogs or wheels may take on different forms. Some may eventually join with the energy pool of the modrons; others may become coggles or moignos and take their place in the regulation of the plane itself.




> I thought it was Vecna who reordered the multiverse. (or possibly even just the side-effects of whatever he did to break the wards on Sigil and the Demiplane of Dread that reordered the multiverse)


Vecna damaged the structure of the multiverse by being in Sigil for as long as he was, but he didn't ultimately get to reorder it.




> And what exactly happened with Aoskar? I always he assumed that he was struck down while trying to enter the city.


One day one of the Lady's dabus servants put on the robes of a priest of Aoskar. That was the last straw. His temple was shattered and his corpse was found floating in the Astral Plane, riddled with blades and with an expression of deepest horror etched into his face.




> Unfortunately, such vagueness leave limitless field to speculations - their rebuttal is: "Prove she isn't!.."


You've demonstrated clear disinterest in counterpoints, so this will be the end of my interaction with you on the topic. The answer is understood; if you don't actually *want* said answer, then I can't help you.




> Pandorym is able to destroy the Multiverse;


Pandorym is identified as being able to eradicate all the worlds of the Material Plane. Eradication of the multiverse itself, or even a single plane, is not attributed to it. Given the farcical ease with which it was stopped from doing so in the first place, one does not have serious grounds for suggesting it could reasonably attempt to total a plane without sufficient intervention to prevent said outcome. Then again, that is of course the point - you have made a decision about what you want to represent as "the most powerful thing in the multiverse," and about what you want dethroned from said position. It's not my place to speak for your campaign, of course, but speaking to the information that others have come here to seek, I do not endorse your opinion.

Given the tenor of your recent posts, I will also no longer be addressing your questions. Good day to you.




> My own opinion, of course not supported with anything, that the Lady is the one who created Multiverse


She is not that.




> I tend to imagine Zagyg as the biggest fish.


Heh, definitely not. Zagyg managed to catch a few gods in his _Godtrap_, but there are many, *many* things in the multiverse that outclass him. He's clever, not powerful.




> IIRC Dragon Magazine made Tharizdun a greater power.


I'd have to recheck, but I was pretty sure he'd been listed as Intermediate.




> Also, Tharizdun does have worshippers. The cult of Elemental Evil worships him. Or at least the factions that don't worship Iuz, Zuggtmoy, or Lolth do at any rate


He's also got his own cults that more openly serve him rather than some disguise or misdirect.

----------


## ShurikVch

> Pandorym is identified as being able to eradicate all the worlds of the Material Plane. Eradication of the multiverse itself, or even a single plane, is not attributed to it.


And Material Plane is the linchpin: remove it - and Multiverse will fall apart!
Also, don't forget: death of deities would cause implosions of their respective realms, and aspects of reality they were responsible for would go haywire, adding to the destruction...




> Given the farcical ease with which it was stopped from doing so in the first place, one does not have serious grounds for suggesting it could reasonably attempt to total a plane without sufficient intervention to prevent said outcome.


What "farcical ease"?  :Small Confused: 
If you about how Pandorym was contained in the first place - we have absolutely no idea how it's happened in the first place. For all we know, Pandorym did all the "heavy lifting", and people who employed it just abused its trust...
But if you're talking about the adventure itself - then "farcical ease" consist in... just not allowing it to get free in the first place, and leave it in the existing containment? Really?!




> Then again, that is of course the point - you have made a decision about what you want to represent as "the most powerful thing in the multiverse


And you - didn't?
Pot.
Kettle.




> Given the tenor of your recent posts, I will also no longer be addressing your questions. Good day to you.


I don't expecting your answer this time, but just couldn't pass such dubious reasoning without reply. Good night.

----------


## Fable Wright

> And Material Plane is the linchpin: remove it - and Multiverse will fall apart!
> Also, don't forget: death of deities would cause implosions of their respective realms, and aspects of reality they were responsible for would go haywire, adding to the destruction...


Sounds like Godsmen propaganda tbh. The Outlands is the lynchpin, and Sigil a representative of that. There's no indication that Pandorym is interested in anything beyond a single crystal sphere and/or the gods therein, much less the entire material plane. There's no indication that if you kill the gods anything bad happens to the multiverse as a whole, or that removing the prime material plane won't cause a new one to be made from the intersection of the Astral and Ethereal.




> What "farcical ease"? 
> If you about how Pandorym was contained in the first place - we have absolutely no idea how it's happened in the first place. For all we know, Pandorym did all the "heavy lifting", and people who employed it just abused its trust...
> But if you're talking about the adventure itself - then "farcical ease" consist in... just not allowing it to get free in the first place, and leave it in the existing containment? Really?!


In Grand History of the Realms, a 4e book, the timeline of Faerun include Pandorym awake and chewing up the countryside for four years (1370-1374) without... really killing any gods or destroying the multiverse as it stands? And then he's put back to sleep by a couple of high level adventurers.

From a deific perspective, that's... really not all that impressive?




> And you - didn't?
> Pot.
> Kettle.


I mean, by posing the question in this particular thread, you tacitly acknowledge that you are asking for afroakuma's perspective and that his answers are definitive. This is *afroakuma's* Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread of 8 years running.

----------


## afroakuma

No point dwelling on it. Let's move on. I didn't come back for this  :Small Tongue: 

Floor's open for questions, as usual.

----------


## Fable Wright

Well, one thing did pop up recently. 

In Dark Sun, there's the Elemental Plane of Silt where there should _normally_ be the Plane of Ooze, but transformations like Transmute Rock to Mud and Mud to Rock still work in a manner that implies that water and earth are still linked. Do you have any speculation about the Plane of Silt might have come about? Or plot ideas for a GM that may deal with a high-level campaign centered around returning the Plane of Silt to the Plane of Ooze?

----------


## Caelestion

> In Grand History of the Realms, a 4e book...


That came out right at the end of 3.5's run and in fact doesn't mention any of the changes to Toril for Fourth Edition except in the most general terms.

----------


## afroakuma

> Well, one thing did pop up recently. 
> 
> In Dark Sun, there's the Elemental Plane of Silt where there should _normally_ be the Plane of Ooze, but transformations like Transmute Rock to Mud and Mud to Rock still work in a manner that implies that water and earth are still linked. Do you have any speculation about the Plane of Silt might have come about? Or plot ideas for a GM that may deal with a high-level campaign centered around returning the Plane of Silt to the Plane of Ooze?


It may be a border area of Ooze - the Muckmire, the Slag Marshes, and the Oasis of Filth all would have regions that are "silt"-esque, being the borders to Earth, Minerals, and Dust respectively.

----------


## Bohandas

Is Sigil on the interior surface of the torus or the exterior surface? And is gravity towards the surface of the torus or towards the surface of the Outlands? And is the torus fully enclosed or is it a half-torus?

----------


## enderlord99

> Is Sigil on the interior surface of the torus or the exterior surface? And is gravity towards the surface of the torus or towards the surface of the Outlands? And is the torus fully enclosed or is it a half-torus?


Interior, the former, it's mostly enclosed

----------


## Fable Wright

> It may be a border area of Ooze - the Muckmire, the Slag Marshes, and the Oasis of Filth all would have regions that are "silt"-esque, being the borders to Earth, Minerals, and Dust respectively.


Ah. To clarify, on Athas, the silt is... not earth-silt. 




> The silt itself is a grayish powder, like very fine and dry dust. It runs through the fingers like water, leaving not a trace on one's hands. The slightest trace of moisture causes it to stick and clump; it can cake the eyes, nose, and throat in seconds. Breathing the airborne silt slowly lines the lungs with powder and chokes the life from even a Giant.
> 
> Like water, silt has a devilish ability to find its way into everything. A traveler walking along the borders of the Sea of Silt on a windy day finds boots, packs, and even pockets filling with gray dust. Most of the time it is merely annoying-but contamination of a canteen or food supplies is a sore blow to the wayfarer on short rations.
> 
> Silt is heavier than air, but far lighter than water. Stories tell of inventors who tried to copy the hulled, wheelless vehicles the ancients used to travel through water. The silt is so light, and of so little substance, that even the most carefully built boat sank through the dust to rest on the bottom. Others tried to strap great baskets to their feet, hoping that these could support their weight over the silt. They were no more successful.
> 
> Water sinks rapidly through the silt. A gallon of water thrown into shallow silt leaves a foot-wide muddy shaft through the dust down to the rock below. This rapidly fills over and collapses, but some Sages observing this effect have speculated that a sufficient amount of water, such as one good rain, could pound the entire Sea into a single mud flat. Of course, the terrible heat of the sun would soon dry the mud back into silt.


It honestly seems pretty close to regions of elemental dust, but on Athas, it... doesn't appear that the paraelemental plane of ooze is known or accessible.

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

Is there a canonical organization in Spelljammer that's devoted to exploring the various known crystal spheres and seeking out new ones, basically being to Prime worlds what the Planewalker's Guild and Planar Cartographic Society are to the planes?

Not necessarily in a full-on "Sphere Trek: Where no demihuman has gone before!" sort of way, but just an ideal one to use for a plot hook along the lines of "[Organization] has discovered a new [crystal sphere/Prime world/celestial body/phlogiston phenomenon/etc.] N days' travel from here and they'd like you to check it out"?

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## Edreyn

I don't really think that Lady is actually the maker of the Multiverse, but as far as ideas go, this one isn't worse then squirrels. Nothing is worse then squirrels.
Somewhat off topic, are there more characters, in any book or game that have a nature unknown even to author? Tom Bombadil, of course, but anyone else?

----------


## Khedrac

> Somewhat off topic, are there more characters, in any book or game that have a nature unknown even to author? Tom Bombadil, of course, but anyone else?


There are a couple of types of answer to this (at least).

The first is when the author hasn't decided on an answer at the time of writing, an example is probably be the prisoner of Elysium.  Various suggestions and false versions have been printed, but it is unlikely that anyone knows because I would guess that the original author wanted it to be a mystery and so never decided on an actual entity.  If Tolkein did not know what Tom Bombadil was (I am not aware of anything saying that Tolkein hadn't decided what Tom was, but I have not read Christopher's series exploring his dad's work) then he fall into this category

The second is in multiple-author environments.  Some novel settings have other people writing additional stories and they can use characters where the primary author is still keeping the true nature of the character secret.  Usually though they avoid these characters (because of the probalmes on getting things wrong).  However this is a lot more common in RPG settings where there is a primary authority and a load of other authors who are given notes on what they can and cannot have the characters do.  These can be glaringly obvious to people who know the setting better than the author of a specific module/article that (mis)uses a character.

Technically cases where the author decides a character is more than originally written are an example, but I think they are not a subset of option 1, but not really an example at all as the author knew at the time of writing, but changed their mind later.

----------


## aj77

I've been kicking around an idea for my homebrew game world.  The idea is that there is a god of magic, but it is not actually a single entity, but rather a gestalt of all that world's most powerful spellcasters, individually ascended to demigod-hood and collectively wielding an intermediate deity's power.
I'm just looking for a sanity check on the idea.  How many demigods would it take to equal one intermediate deity?  Could several individuals wield a greater spark of divinity than any one of them possess?

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## Efrate

Demigods are rank 1 to 5, and intermediate dieties are rank 11 to 15, so as few as 3 or as many as 11 in a strictly by the numbers sense.  I kind of like the idea of 3 rank 5s, good evil and neutral, but since SDA and class levels are more a determination of power thank raw rank, just use what you see fit.

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## Tzardok

> I've been kicking around an idea for my homebrew game world.  The idea is that there is a god of magic, but it is not actually a single entity, but rather a gestalt of all that world's most powerful spellcasters, individually ascended to demigod-hood and collectively wielding an intermediate deity's power.
> I'm just looking for a sanity check on the idea.  How many demigods would it take to equal one intermediate deity?  Could several individuals wield a greater spark of divinity than any one of them possess?


Your idea reminds of a bunch of different phenomena on the planes.

The *Undying Court* are the ancestors of the elves of Aerinal on the world of Eberron, returned to the world of the living as deathless, a positve energy based counterpart of the negative energy based undead. They advise the rulers of Aerinal and are worshipped by their people. As a collective, they are roughly equivalent to a demigod.

The *Moongods* are eldritch wildspace entities associated with the stars, omens and catastrophy. They are most well known among the mortals for creating the aberrations called mooncalves as their agents, but some astrologists obsessed with omens revere them. Their collective power, again, equals a demigod.

*The Xammux* is a deity described in the Book of Vile Darkness. The Xammux is not a single entity, but a conglomerat of six other gods whose identities have been lost to the collective. The Xammux' portfolio includes cold logic divorced of any kind of morals and forbidden experiments. Sadly, the BoVD doesn't give information about it's divine rank, or how powerful the individual pieces were.

*Angharradh* is the queen of the elven deities, wife to their creator Corellon Laretian. She's a triune deity, at once a single being and the fusion of three lesser ones. She herself is counted as a greater deity, while her components are the intermediate goddesses Aerdrie Faenya, Hanali Celanil and Sehanine Moonbow.

All in all I can say that your idea has merit, but you can't expect a rocksolid formula of "6 demigods = 1 lesser god" or something like that.

----------


## Edreyn

I am not sure what exactly you have in mind, but if you mean that demigods actually merge into one entity, with single mind, forfeiting all their personality, then yes, it can work. If they work as collective, and everyone stays with his mind, then it isn't.

The closest example I can think of is from sci-fi and not fantasy. In Starcraft series, when the old Overmind was killed by Protoss, surviving cerebrates physically and literally merged into a new one. Yes, they aren't deities, but they literally control all their subjects every aspect, so I think the example can fit here.

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## tyckspoon

> I've been kicking around an idea for my homebrew game world.  The idea is that there is a god of magic, but it is not actually a single entity, but rather a gestalt of all that world's most powerful spellcasters, individually ascended to demigod-hood and collectively wielding an intermediate deity's power.
> I'm just looking for a sanity check on the idea.  How many demigods would it take to equal one intermediate deity?  Could several individuals wield a greater spark of divinity than any one of them possess?


The idea of pooling power to achieve something greater than any individual caster could is pretty common and occurs in various ways throughout existing rules - see things like Circle Magic, the Metaconcert psionic power, Co-operative Spellcasting feat, Epic Spells that use ritual participants, or the pool of spellcasting power managed by the Arcane Order (of the eponymous Prestige Class.) It's not a big stretch to say that gods of magic could work the same way. The question would be how you determine what the will or desires of this 'god' would be - does it actually have separate desires from the mages that make up its power supply? Is there no real separate entity, and the individual contributing demigod-mages are simply able to perform much greater feats than they should by tapping into it? If so, how is that access regulated? What kind of compacts, traditions, or accords control how they can use that power?

----------


## afroakuma

> Is there a canonical organization in Spelljammer that's devoted to exploring the various known crystal spheres and seeking out new ones, basically being to Prime worlds what the Planewalker's Guild and Planar Cartographic Society are to the planes?
> 
> Not necessarily in a full-on "Sphere Trek: Where no demihuman has gone before!" sort of way, but just an ideal one to use for a plot hook along the lines of "[Organization] has discovered a new [crystal sphere/Prime world/celestial body/phlogiston phenomenon/etc.] N days' travel from here and they'd like you to check it out"?


Hm. The Seekers would be the closest thing; they're more dedicated to seeking out knowledge and answers to mysteries in a broader sense, but certainly discovering new or uncharted planets would be within their idiom. They're also known as the Order of the Orb and Sword.




> I've been kicking around an idea for my homebrew game world.  The idea is that there is a god of magic, but it is not actually a single entity, but rather a gestalt of all that world's most powerful spellcasters, individually ascended to demigod-hood and collectively wielding an intermediate deity's power.
> I'm just looking for a sanity check on the idea.  How many demigods would it take to equal one intermediate deity?  Could several individuals wield a greater spark of divinity than any one of them possess?


It's hard to give a particular figure, since it's not a simple matter of addition. I would say you'd likely want a goodly number of them, if they're demigods. Personally I wouldn't want to go lower than 12, and I'd probably prefer a higher number, but that's just me.

----------


## Tzardok

Say, Afro, what do you think about my version of the su'luk two pages back? Is that roughly how you imagined it when answering back then, or do you think something should be changed?

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

> Hm. The Seekers would be the closest thing; they're more dedicated to seeking out knowledge and answers to mysteries in a broader sense, but certainly discovering new or uncharted planets would be within their idiom. They're also known as the Order of the Orb and Sword.


Good call, thanks, I'd completely forgotten about them.




> I've been kicking around an idea for my homebrew game world. The idea is that there is a god of magic, but it is not actually a single entity, but rather a gestalt of all that world's most powerful spellcasters, individually ascended to demigod-hood and collectively wielding an intermediate deity's power.
> I'm just looking for a sanity check on the idea. How many demigods would it take to equal one intermediate deity? Could several individuals wield a greater spark of divinity than any one of them possess?





> It's hard to give a particular figure, since it's not a simple matter of addition. I would say you'd likely want a goodly number of them, if they're demigods. Personally I wouldn't want to go lower than 12, and I'd probably prefer a higher number, but that's just me.


I think 64 would be a good number for that, for two reasons:

1) Out-of-game, in 3e there are many level-related things that double in power every increment or two (e.g. Versatile Spellcaster turning 2 level X slots into 1 level X+1 slot, 2 creatures of CR X having a CR of level X+2, and so on).  Thus, one might assume (though of course the relationship between gods isn't nearly so clear-cut) that 1 rank 6 deity is "worth" 2 rank 5 deities, 1 rank 7 deity is worth 4 rank 5 deities, etc., and so the minimum ratio of demigods to intermediate deities would be 1 intermediate deity of rank 11 being equivalent to 64 demigods of rank 5.

2) In-game, there are 8 schools of magic, so having 82=64 demigods in the collective and having 8 be a sacred number for them that gets used in a lot of imagery and scripture and so forth would be nicely thematic.  Especially if the demigods ascended one by one over the centuries and you can have a somewhat Avatar-like setup where the god collective cycles through the different schools to pick powerful specialists in each school to join it, to ensure that it doesn't happen to skew towards one facet of magic because e.g. the last century saw a bunch of powerful conjurers and no powerful diviners so the collective is conjurer-heavy now.

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## afroakuma

> Say, Afro, what do you think about my version of the su'luk two pages back? Is that roughly how you imagined it when answering back then, or do you think something should be changed?


Seems good! Ran it by some more balance-familiar amigos and they agreed.

Dice: I like your rationale on that one. I was also loosely braining the 8 schools of magic.

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## aj77

Thanks for all the feedback.
I also like 8 as a sacred number for the collective; I had chosen an 8 pointed star as the god's holy symbol, representing the balance of the 8 non neutral alignments.  One of my concepts was that the demigods were of all various alignments, with the collective averaging out to TN.  Having it also refer to the schools of magic is a great plus.

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## Bartmanhomer

Is there a depression deity? A deity who's always sad and depressed all the time.  :Confused:

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## redking

Afroakuma - where can I find a compiled list of your 3.5e crunch homebrew with links?

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## aj77

> Is there a depression deity? A deity who's always sad and depressed all the time.


Shar isn't really depressed all the time, but is a deity of loss and enjoys nurturing pain, grief, and sadness.

----------


## Bohandas

Wny is Sigil seemingly so uniquiely important, given the fact that there are other planar trade/transport hubs, and sigil's portals seem to be often inconvenient to use and are generally too small to get a wagon through?

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## Tzardok

> Wny is Sigil seemingly so uniquiely important, given the fact that there are other planar trade/transport hubs, and sigil's portals seem to be often inconvenient to use and are generally too small to get a wagon through?


Sigil is, just off the top of my head,
the biggest metropolis in the planes besides Dis;directly reachable from_ everywhere_ without needing magic assistance if you know what you are doing;assured neutrality by the biggest stick around;granted importance through Unity of Rings and Center of All.

----------


## Bohandas

> the biggest metropolis in the planes besides Dis;


How is that possible!? It only has 250000 inhabitants!

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## Tzardok

> How is that possible!? It only has 250000 inhabitants!


Science fiction fantasy writers having no sense of scale.  :Small Amused:

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## Bohandas

But it's not just small-considering-that-it-services-an-infinite-multiverse, it's just a small city period. Even thousands of years ago there were cities in the real world that were bigger

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## Bohandas

And how come we never hear of suburbs or metroplexes or sister cities of Sigil? If it's portal network were at all reliable, we would expect it to have a sprawling network of Fort Worths, East Vegases, and Greater Londons

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## afroakuma

> Is there a depression deity? A deity who's always sad and depressed all the time.


Nephthys.




> Afroakuma - where can I find a compiled list of your 3.5e crunch homebrew with links?


I don't think there is one, anymore. Anything in particular you were looking for? A lot of the really old stuff is pretty crap...




> Wny is Sigil seemingly so uniquiely important, given the fact that there are other planar trade/transport hubs, and sigil's portals seem to be often inconvenient to use and are generally too small to get a wagon through?


It's neutral ground the gods can't get to, a hub for moving between countless worlds and planes, and exists at the center of the Outer Planes, making it an excellent place for those looking to shape reality with their beliefs to congregate and argue their case - which they do. You're thinking of Sigil from the standpoint of "why is it impressive as a city," which is not the reason people care about it - even if it were barren ground, it would be important. The fact that it's been urbanized only adds to its relevance.




> the biggest metropolis in the planes besides Dis


Zelatar.




> And how come we never hear of suburbs or metroplexes or sister cities of Sigil? If it's portal network were at all reliable, we would expect it to have a sprawling network of Fort Worths, East Vegases, and Greater Londons


Its portal network is a thing of value; people pay to learn the whereabouts and methods of portals, and while many are very consistent, no portal is 100% guaranteed forever - the Lady can create them, change them or close them as she wills. Then of course there's the other crucial fact that many of its destinations are on planes of belief, where distance and location are in part a function of the traveler themselves.

----------


## Babale

How much is know about the illithid prophecy of a being called The Adversary?

----------


## afroakuma

> How much is know about the illithid prophecy of a being called The Adversary?


Well, we certainly know what it is - the legend says that one day a ceremorphosis will go wrong, resulting in a being with the body and powers of an illithid, but the mind and soul of the host body. There's been at least one case of something similar happening, although the circumstances were unique - the ulitharid Redatsuul recklessly overused psionic tattoos and accidentally created a circuit that inverted the mental control in his body and allowed the human host mind to regain control. The Adversary would be a _slightly_ different scenario in that the illithid mind would not exist at all, but the nature of their fear is basically the same - something that can move among them undetected and work to destroy them using their own powers.

----------


## aj77

I've read about Uchuulon (chuul/illithids) and Urophion (roper/illithids).  Are there any other nontraditional illithid-kin?  
Are there limits to what kinds of things can be tadpole implanted?

----------


## Tzardok

> I've read about Uchuulon (chuul/illithids) and Urophion (roper/illithids).  Are there any other nontraditional illithid-kin?  
> Are there limits to what kinds of things can be tadpole implanted?


Well, Lords of Madness claims that normally the tadpoles are very discerning about the type of host they can survive in. Only mamalian humanoids of a certain size are valid hosts; given examples are humans, elves, githzerai, githyanki, orks, gnolls, grimlocks and Medium-sized goblionids. On the other hand, illithids are experimenting all the time with implanting tadpoles into other things. Most of the time tadpole and host die, but sometimes it works. Usually, the half-illithid template is used for those "freaks". Urophion and Uchuulon are the only examples I know of that are reliably reproducable. Besides those I only know of the brainstealer dragons, whose exact origin is not quite clear, but most likely, well... tadpole + dragon.

Question of my own: Urbanus and Zarus from Races of Destiny, the deities of the raptorans from Races of the Wild and the pantheon of the goliaths from Races of Stone do not have any homeplanes given. Does anybody have ideas or speculations where those gods have their divine realms?

----------


## zfs

> I've read about Uchuulon (chuul/illithids) and Urophion (roper/illithids).  Are there any other nontraditional illithid-kin?


There certainly are. An illithid tadpole implanted into a Beholder makes a Mindwitness. 2e has the Mozgriken, which are Svirfneblin with a tadpole, but that required some sort of dark ritual because otherwise attempting ceremorphosis with a gnome kills both the gnome and the tadpole. DragMag has the Tzakandi, which are made from lizardfolk.

Brainstealer dragons are also a Dragon Mag thing. They occasionally will rule illithid settlements that don't have an Elder Brain.




> Are there limits to what kinds of things can be tadpole implanted?


Standard targets for normal ceremorphosis (i.e. will create a standard Illithid, not a special Ceremorph like the Urophion) are humans, elves, gith, gnolls, orcs, and some goblinoids. Dwarves and halflings are basically always a no-no.

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## Babale

> Well, we certainly know what it is - the legend says that one day a ceremorphosis will go wrong, resulting in a being with the body and powers of an illithid, but the mind and soul of the host body. There's been at least one case of something similar happening, although the circumstances were unique - the ulitharid Redatsuul recklessly overused psionic tattoos and accidentally created a circuit that inverted the mental control in his body and allowed the human host mind to regain control. The Adversary would be a _slightly_ different scenario in that the illithid mind would not exist at all, but the nature of their fear is basically the same - something that can move among them undetected and work to destroy them using their own powers.


Is there any clue as to what the source of this creature would be? Is it a failure on the tadpoles part? A particularly strong willed individual? Divine favor? Or just random chance?

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## Efrate

Were dwarves ever officially small in older editions?  Seems a medium humamoid is the standard.  Plus the 97% human society means something that fits in is better than something that stands out for infiltration maybe?

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## Mr Adventurer

> Well, we certainly know what it is - the legend says that one day a ceremorphosis will go wrong, resulting in a being with the body and powers of an illithid, but the mind and soul of the host body. There's been at least one case of something similar happening, although the circumstances were unique - the ulitharid Redatsuul recklessly overused psionic tattoos and accidentally created a circuit that inverted the mental control in his body and allowed the human host mind to regain control. The Adversary would be a _slightly_ different scenario in that the illithid mind would not exist at all, but the nature of their fear is basically the same - something that can move among them undetected and work to destroy them using their own powers.


Does anyone know the source of this Redatsuul stuff? Because it doesn't make sense to me: Illithid don't _have_ "mental control" of their bodies nor "hosts" once ceremorphosis is complete: the tadpole eats and replaces the brain. The original creature is dead. There might be some memory transfer but not enough to work with to reconstitute the original creature's mind as this Redatsuul thing suggests.

The actual legend of the Adversary involves a unique alchemical potion taken before ceremorphosis, which at least sounds like it could maybe do something like lobotomising the tadpole so that it doesn't eat your brain while leaving its autonomic functions intact so that your body still transforms.

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## Tzardok

I just googled it. Redatsuul hails from an adventure in the Dungeon Magazine #81. Maybe a case of Early Installment Weirdness.

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## Cieyrin

> Were dwarves ever officially small in older editions?  Seems a medium humamoid is the standard.  Plus the 97% human society means something that fits in is better than something that stands out for infiltration maybe?


Faerun's Wild Dwarves and Krynn's Gully Dwarves are Small but those specific subraces are the exceptions to that, in general, dwarves are Medium. I think there's another Faerun dwarf subrace that's also Small but I'd have to go looking.

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## PairO'Dice Lost

> Does anyone know the source of this Redatsuul stuff? Because it doesn't make sense to me: Illithid don't have "mental control" of their bodies nor "hosts" once ceremorphosis is complete: the tadpole eats and replaces the brain. The original creature is dead. There might be some memory transfer but not enough to work with to reconstitute the original creature's mind as this Redatsuul thing suggests.


The Redatsuul description doesn't actually say outright that the original host's mind survived, there's a bit of vagueness in the explanation.  The specific verbiage in the sidebar is thus:




> Psionic seals are analogous to psionic tattoos in form and receptacles in purpose.  The psionic discipline Imprint Psionic Circuitry allows illithids to brand objects with psionic seals designed to contain psionic power.  It is possible to brand a living being with a psionic seal, allowing the individual so marked to call upon the power stored within the seal.
> 
> The ulitharid Redatsuul became enamored of psionic seals and had several placed upon his person.  The seals' circuitry accidentally crossed, however.  The seals not only shorted out but revived the human personality that the ulitharid supposedly obliterated when he underwent ceremorphosis. (See _The Illithiad_ for details.)
> 
> Note that if Shannotsuul suffers damage in combat exceeding half of her hit points or is reduced to below half her normal PSP total, there is a 5% chance that the psionic seals on her are damaged enough to cease functioning and restore the Redatsuul personality, eliminating all vestiges of the human wizard Shannon Canteel.  If reduced to one fourth of her hit points or reduced to 0 PSPs, the chance increases to 10%.


...and wherever the adventure background talks about Shannon Canteel, it phrases things in terms of an external personality taking over Redatsuul rather than a former mind just hanging around:



> It was constructed hundreds of years ago by Shannotsuul, an ulitharid whose personality was attacked by a human mind.





> The personality that has surfaced and dominated the ulitharid mind is Shannon Canteel, a former human wizard and adventurer.





> [T]he Shannon personality remains in charge and works towards the downfall of illithids with single-minded determination.  To extend her life beyond the normal ulitharid span and to keep the ulitharid's personality at bay, Shannotsuul regularly ingests a special fluid produced by fungal growths mixed with neural tissue from strange subterranean creatures.





> Attempts by Shannon to return to her former human state have met with failure--the Redatsuul personality is too intimately entwined with Shannon's to allow such change.


Given that the human personality only exists and is in control while the item is intact and has a very one-dimensional personality, much like an intelligent item taking control of a host to pursue its special purpose, there's a pretty strong implication that "Shannon Canteel" in this case is more of a false overlay on Redatsuul's mind (in a Tyler-Durden-from-Fight-Club kind of way) than an actual mind that survived ceremorphosis.




> I think there's another Faerun dwarf subrace that's also Small but I'd have to go looking.


That would be the Arctic dwarf, which tops out at 3 foot 4.

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## Mr Adventurer

> The Redatsuul description doesn't actually say outright that the original host's mind survived, there's a bit of vagueness in the explanation.  The specific verbiage in the sidebar is thus:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and wherever the adventure background talks about Shannon Canteel, it phrases things in terms of an external personality taking over Redatsuul rather than a former mind just hanging around:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fantastic, thank you. That's slightly "better", for me at least. Interesting there's a similar link to a unique alchemical potion as in The Adversary - I wonder if that's intentional.

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## Bohandas

> Is there any clue as to what the source of this creature would be? Is it a failure on the tadpoles part? A particularly strong willed individual? Divine favor? Or just random chance?





> The actual legend of the Adversary involves a unique alchemical potion taken before ceremorphosis, which at least sounds like it could maybe do something like lobotomising the tadpole so that it doesn't eat your brain while leaving its autonomic functions intact so that your body still transforms.


I woukd think the most plausible way to achieve the effect would be to mind switch with the tadpole as it is inserted.

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## afroakuma

> I've read about Uchuulon (chuul/illithids) and Urophion (roper/illithids).  Are there any other nontraditional illithid-kin?  
> Are there limits to what kinds of things can be tadpole implanted?


I think this was sufficiently addressed by others. Illithids keep experimenting, of course, and it's possible that one-off mutants can be produced with even "incompatible" hosts using a variety of dark and alien sciences to stabilize the attempt, but that's what the half-illithid template is for.




> Question of my own: Urbanus and Zarus from Races of Destiny, the deities of the raptorans from Races of the Wild and the pantheon of the goliaths from Races of Stone do not have any homeplanes given. Does anybody have ideas or speculations where those gods have their divine realms?


I would place Urbanus on Bytopia, Zarus on Acheron. For the raptoran deities, Tuilviel Glithien is most likely ensconced on Karasuthra, third layer of the Beastlands; Duthila would fit in on Shurrock, second layer of Bytopia; Kithin is a bit hard to place, but a snowy mountain of Arborea may be fitting; Lliendil may fit on Ysgard or Limbo, or on the Elemental Plane of Air; Nilthina is most likely somewhere on Brux, second layer of the Beastlands; Ventila would fit Elysium well. For the goliath deities, Kavaki is most likely situated on the Outlands; Kuliak on Pandemonium; Manethak on the Beastlands; Naki-Uthai on Ysgard; Theleya on Elysium; Vanua on Gehenna, Limbo, or Ysgard.




> Is there any clue as to what the source of this creature would be? Is it a failure on the tadpoles part? A particularly strong willed individual? Divine favor? Or just random chance?


In the documented instance that likely precipitated the legend, Strom Wakeman used a nonmagical herbal mixture called laethal to drug himself prior to ceremorphosis, which impeded the transformation.




> Were dwarves ever officially small in older editions?  Seems a medium humamoid is the standard.  Plus the 97% human society means something that fits in is better than something that stands out for infiltration maybe?


Nope. Dwarves are shorter than humans on average, but not "small" in the way halflings and gnomes are. Some subraces are, of course.




> Given that the human personality only exists and is in control while the item is intact and has a very one-dimensional personality, much like an intelligent item taking control of a host to pursue its special purpose, there's a pretty strong implication that "Shannon Canteel" in this case is more of a false overlay on Redatsuul's mind (in a Tyler-Durden-from-Fight-Club kind of way) than an actual mind that survived ceremorphosis.


I'd dispute that for a few reasons - Shannotsuul is an accomplished arcane caster, for instance, which is rather like if Tyler Durden spoke fluent Urdu. Also, The Illithiad tells us that the tadpole "subsumes the creature's personality" (p.12), which suggests that it's in there somewhere, possibly providing the psionic fuel for the tadpole's growth and development. I do believe the writer's intent was to confirm that Shannon Canteel was the host body and is currently the dominant personality, which suggests some interesting things about illithid cognition, development, and psychology... but since we're not going to see anything authoritative on this point, I'm happy to agree to disagree.

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## PairO'Dice Lost

> I'd dispute that for a few reasons - Shannotsuul is an accomplished arcane caster, for instance, which is rather like if Tyler Durden spoke fluent Urdu. Also, The Illithiad tells us that the tadpole "subsumes the creature's personality" (p.12), which suggests that it's in there somewhere, possibly providing the psionic fuel for the tadpole's growth and development. I do believe the writer's intent was to confirm that Shannon Canteel was the host body and is currently the dominant personality, which suggests some interesting things about illithid cognition, development, and psychology... but since we're not going to see anything authoritative on this point, I'm happy to agree to disagree.


I do agree that Shannotsuul's personality is based on the remnants of the actual Shannon Canteel, I just got the strong impression from the text that it was merely a reconstruction, something like a _Nybor's psychic imprint_ and not Shannon's actual mind.  The Tyler Durden comparison was more in reference to the part where Shannon was taking steps to keep Redatsuul suppressed so she could keep acting freely, not suggesting that her personality appeared out of nowhere.

---

A few Dark Sun questions:

1) There are references in a few sources to ancient gods of Athas (a temple to unknown gods in Undertyr in _The Verdant Passage_, pictures of godlike figures on Kalak's ziggurat on the box set map, and a few others I forget offhand).  This of course contradicts the original concept of Athas having never had gods at all.  Are there any other references that imply one way or another whether Athas had once had actual gods which then died/were killed/disappeared/etc. or if it's more an Eberron situation where no one has any evidence of gods ever existing but early priests got divine power somehow so people worship them anyway?

2) I know of the fanon Crimson Sphere writeup of Athas's crystal sphere and its celestial bodies, but is there any canon information squirreled away somewhere regarding the appearance/properties of Athas's moons or any other planets in the system?

3) How do Athas's elemental sorta-kinda-planes function with respect to the greater Elemental Planes of the Wheel?  You've described them before as "elemental nodes" with conduits to the greater planes, but does that mean they're sort of physical extensions of those planes and if an Athasian planar traveler just walks/swims/flies long enough they could leave their sphere, or there's a big ol' vortex or gate or something somewhere in the Athasian planes that will take a traveler out of the sphere and otherwise they're basically closed off like demiplanes, or something else?
3a) Is travel possible both into and out of Athas that way, or just one way, or it's possible both ways but much easier in than out, or...?
3b) How much of this is known to the Sorcerer-Kings and other knowledgeable individuals?

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## Tzardok

> I would place Urbanus on Bytopia, Zarus on Acheron. For the raptoran deities, Tuilviel Glithien is most likely ensconced on Karasuthra, third layer of the Beastlands; Duthila would fit in on Shurrock, second layer of Bytopia; Kithin is a bit hard to place, but a snowy mountain of Arborea may be fitting; Lliendil may fit on Ysgard or Limbo, or on the Elemental Plane of Air; Nilthina is most likely somewhere on Brux, second layer of the Beastlands; Ventila would fit Elysium well. For the goliath deities, Kavaki is most likely situated on the Outlands; Kuliak on Pandemonium; Manethak on the Beastlands; Naki-Uthai on Ysgard; Theleya on Elysium; Vanua on Gehenna, Limbo, or Ysgard.


Thank you for your thoughts.  :Small Smile: 
The only one I would outright disagree with is Zarus; he sounds more like a Baator guy to me, but everything else is really helpful.
Vanua as a god of avalanches sounds outright fun in Gehenna; maybe he should have a mobile divine realm, "The Great Rock-Slide", moving downwards Chamada.
Lliendil is really a difficult guy, isn't he? Bah, Air is good enough for him. His realm shall be known as "The Changing Sky".
Regarding Kithin, wasn't one of the Seven Heavens a snowy place? Venya, I think... Or do we have to go the cordant planes? K'un-Lun is supposed to be snowy mountains and fits him, doesn't it?




> I'd dispute that for a few reasons - Shannotsuul is an accomplished arcane caster, for instance, which is rather like if Tyler Durden spoke fluent Urdu. Also, The Illithiad tells us that the tadpole "subsumes the creature's personality" (p.12), which suggests that it's in there somewhere, possibly providing the psionic fuel for the tadpole's growth and development. I do believe the writer's intent was to confirm that Shannon Canteel was the host body and is currently the dominant personality, which suggests some interesting things about illithid cognition, development, and psychology... but since we're not going to see anything authoritative on this point, I'm happy to agree to disagree.


If that were true, what implications would it have for the host's soul? With the "normal" understanding of ceremorphosis, the soul goes to its final reward when the host "dies", for lack of better term. Would that happen here too, leaving the consciousness as an imprint, or would the soul remain, imprisoned in the mindflayer?

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## afroakuma

> 1) There are references in a few sources to ancient gods of Athas (a temple to unknown gods in Undertyr in _The Verdant Passage_, pictures of godlike figures on Kalak's ziggurat on the box set map, and a few others I forget offhand).  This of course contradicts the original concept of Athas having never had gods at all.  Are there any other references that imply one way or another whether Athas had once had actual gods which then died/were killed/disappeared/etc. or if it's more an Eberron situation where no one has any evidence of gods ever existing but early priests got divine power somehow so people worship them anyway?


The second Monstrous Compendium - which is admittedly a poor source, given that it keeps referring to the Astral and Ethereal Planes, among other things, but Revised Dark Sun is problematic like that - brings us the raaig, undead wardens of places sacred to lost and forgotten gods; the Revised Campaign Setting also gives us the ruined site known as Godshold, which was supposedly the temple of a whole pantheon in the Green Age. The official word on the matter is that the creators were never formally going to confirm or deny the existence of gods in the setting's past, but what's quite certain is that from at least the Green Age forward, gods were not operating in the Crimson Sphere.




> 2) I know of the fanon Crimson Sphere writeup of Athas's crystal sphere and its celestial bodies, but is there any canon information squirreled away somewhere regarding the appearance/properties of Athas's moons or any other planets in the system?


Nyet. We only know the names of the two moons, Ral and Guthay, and that they meet once every 11 years to cause a fun eclipse.




> 3) How do Athas's elemental sorta-kinda-planes function with respect to the greater Elemental Planes of the Wheel?  You've described them before as "elemental nodes" with conduits to the greater planes, but does that mean they're sort of physical extensions of those planes and if an Athasian planar traveler just walks/swims/flies long enough they could leave their sphere, or there's a big ol' vortex or gate or something somewhere in the Athasian planes that will take a traveler out of the sphere and otherwise they're basically closed off like demiplanes, or something else?


You could move through the elemental planes of Athas to reach the Inner Planes proper, yes. The contamination of the Dark Lens is powerful, but not absolute, and certainly weakest there out of any of the nearby planes.




> 3a) Is travel possible both into and out of Athas that way, or just one way, or it's possible both ways but much easier in than out, or...?


In and out, yes.




> 3b) How much of this is known to the Sorcerer-Kings and other knowledgeable individuals?


Almost all of the sorcerer-kings, at the very minimum, suspect this to be the case, and most of them outright *know* - journeying to another plane is a required part of the dragon transformation, with increasing frequency in the later stages.




> Thank you for your thoughts. 
> The only one I would outright disagree with is Zarus; he sounds more like a Baator guy to me


I did consider that, but his writeup is extremely clear that his dogma includes militaristic subjugation of others, which is strongly in keeping with other denizens of Avalas. His own insular cube would also fit the "perfection and specialness" theme much moreso than being yet another dark lord of the Hells.




> Regarding Kithin, wasn't one of the Seven Heavens a snowy place? Venya, I think... Or do we have to go the cordant planes? K'un-Lun is supposed to be snowy mountains and fits him, doesn't it?


I prefer not to use the Planes of Cordance as they're non-canonical and pretty thin in premise. I chose Arborea because I felt it more suited to the raptoran ethos overall.




> If that were true, what implications would it have for the host's soul? With the "normal" understanding of ceremorphosis, the soul goes to its final reward when the host "dies", for lack of better term. Would that happen here too, leaving the consciousness as an imprint, or would the soul remain, imprisoned in the mindflayer?


In the case of the actual Adversary, the soul remained with the body, as it became mutated but did not "die." In Shannon's case, Dice and I are in accord that she herself is quite dead - the personality that pilots Shannotsuul is an imprint from the consciousness the tadpole subsumed, not the woman herself. She doesn't know or feel that, of course, but it remains the case.

----------


## Tzardok

A little inspiration sometimes goes a... medium way.

Urbanus' realm, *Kosmopolis,* is one of the few large population centers on Dothion, a city fusing the building styles of every non-evil city building civilization in the multiverse into a seamless whole. Kosmopolis serves as a trading hub for wares from all close villages and as connection to many other places in the Great Wheel; it has an above avarage number of doors to Sigil and portals to many metropoles on the Prime. Petitioners are easily recognizable by their skin like masonry; most of them spent their time constructing new and maintaining old structures. Others patroll the streets or forge plans to improve Prime cities under Urbanus' aegis. The Building God himself resides inside the Domicile, a cathedral resembling a civic hall in the center of the city.

Zarus' realm, *Humanity, F*** Yeah! Crown of Creation,* covers a medium sized cube on Avalas. The whole cube shines in a golden light, as if it tried to be a sun in the endless reaches of Avalas. The buildings the petitioners reside and work in are spires, resembling a crown's prongs. Zarus' petitioners appear on the pinnacle of their youth, strong and with a golden tinge to their skin. They spend most of their time with training and competition, but some prefer art and engineering. Menial work is done by nonhuman slaves, most of which are prisoners taken during the frequent skirmishes with the orks of Nishrek and the goblinoids of Clangor. The Perfect One is no distant god and oversees his petitioners' work personally, to punish slacking and honor exceptional feats.

Tuilviel Glithien's realm is called *Night's Silent Wings.* It is located in a mountainous forest region in Karasutra, close to where the Animal Lord of Owls resides. The sky here is alight with millions of stars, and owls and other night birds flit everywhere. Tuilviel's petitioners resemble raptorans with dark plumage, no matter what race they where in life. Besides a village on a mountain cliff there are no signs of civilisation in the Night's Silent Wings, something the fiercily independent inhabitants prefer that way. Better to hunt in the dark and contemplate the beauty of the night than to spent more time with others than necessary. The Queen of Air and Night herself can never be met, but is seen by all: The sky here is in fact her giant wings covering the whole realm.

*Küwitt* is the divine realm of Kithin. The Father of Snow resides in Mithardir, on a high and snowy mountain contrasting with the desert around it. Just beneath the snow lie the dead of the Raptorans, gently sleeping as if they died of hypothermia. Kithin's petitioners, who look as if the cold has frozen all color out of them, dig those dead up, guided by snow white screaching owls, and gently awake them. Afterwards they are escorted to the mountain peak, where Kithin interrogates them on their faith in life and send them on to their proper deity. Visitors that wish an audience with him need to do the hazardous climb themselves, if they can't convince one of the petitioners or owls to escort them there.

----------


## Dalmosh

How common are elementite swarms on the elemental planes?

What causes immature elementals to congregate in this manner?

----------


## Bohandas

What is known about Anarazel the Daring Darkness, the demon prince of adventurers?

----------


## enderlord99

What unique demon is the least Chaotic of those who still officially are Chaotic Evil (as opposed to one which has officially fallen law-wards to Neutral Evil)

----------


## Tzardok

> What unique demon is the least Chaotic of those who still officially are Chaotic Evil (as opposed to one which has officially fallen law-wards to Neutral Evil)


I think the typical answer about an unusually "lawful" demon is Graz'zt, isn't it?

Also, I thought we had decided that we would rename "fallen law-wards" as "codified". (At least, _I_ decided that.  :Small Tongue:  )

----------


## enderlord99

> I think the typical answer about an unusually "lawful" demon is Graz'zt, isn't it?)


Oh, right.  Him.  Well, that was easy.

----------


## aj77

Does anyone know of any write ups for the Lovecraft Mythos entities as D&D gods?

Failing that, does anyone want to posit such stats?

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

> Does anyone know of any write ups for the Lovecraft Mythos entities as D&D gods?
> 
> Failing that, does anyone want to posit such stats?


They showed up in 1e Deities & Demigods (before later being removed), and there are no official stat blocks for them that are more recent than that.

There is a d20 Call of Cthulhu game whose sourcebooks you might be able to mine for writeups, but I'm pretty sure those stats would be along the lines of "Cthulhu - HP: Yes; AC: You Miss; Damage: 1d6 investigators per round" and so forth, so not entirely helpful.

----------


## Fable Wright

> There is a d20 Call of Cthulhu game whose sourcebooks you might be able to mine for writeups, but I'm pretty sure those stats would be along the lines of "Cthulhu - HP: Yes; AC: You Miss; Damage: 1d6 investigators per round" and so forth, so not entirely helpful.


I question the value of this writeup given that someone with Improvised Weapon (Boat) managed to hit Cthulhu hard enough to go back to bed. Seems a bit lore-disingenuous.

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## The Insanity

> Does anyone know of any write ups for the Lovecraft Mythos entities as D&D gods?
> 
> Failing that, does anyone want to posit such stats?


Pathfindet 1st ed. has a few Old Ones stated up.

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

> I question the value of this writeup given that someone with Improvised Weapon (Boat) managed to hit Cthulhu hard enough to go back to bed. Seems a bit lore-disingenuous.


The Cthulhu Mythos RPG stuff has always had an unfortunate tendency towards railroading and unbeatable badguys and such because mumble mumble eldritch geometries mumble beyond human comprehension mumble.  I'm not convinced that everyone who designs a published Mythos RPG necessarily _reads_ the original Lovecraft, as opposed to merely being informed by Cthulhu's memetic invulnerable badassitude.

That being said, while you'd need to ignore most of the numbers in the stat blocks, the d20 CoC material could at least give ideas on relative strengths, ability names, and other inspiration as a starting point for something more sane.

That's why I mentioned the 1e D&DG.  Yes, the Old Ones are considered gods, but they're relatively approachable stat-wise.  Cthulhu, for instance, has stuff like 400 HP, AC 2, +2 or better weapons to-hit, 80% magic resistance, Str 25, Int 20, and moderate psionic ability in an edition when Asmodeus had 199 HP, AC -7, +3 or better weapons to-hit, 90% magic resistance, Str 24, Int 20, and strong psionic ability--pretty beefy compared to mid-high level characters, but not unbeatably strong and not the strongest one in his pantheon either.

----------


## enderlord99

...why would Big A have an armor-class of *negative seven‽*

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## PairO'Dice Lost

Because 1e armor class is descending, where 10 is the worst AC (no protection), 2 is the best mundane AC (plate armor plus a shield), and magical enhancements can take you down as far as -10.  In the 1e MM, only two creatures had an AC better than Asmodeus at -8: Demogorgon (since he was more melee-focused where Asmodeus was more magic-focused) and the Will-o'-the-Wisp (which had AC -8, magic immunity, and natural invisibility to be a "screw you" monster).

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## enderlord99

1e sounds weird.

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## Caelestion

That was 2E as well.  THAC0 started at 20 and went down, so of course AC did too.

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## Lapak

> 1e sounds weird.


It was a weird rule implemented weirdly, but it boiled down to 'your target's AC is used a modifier to your attack roll against a static target' rather than 'the AC _is_ the target you roll against,' which is not that silly on the face of it.

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## Thurbane

Re: D&D stats for Lovecraftian beings - to be honest, the relative power of of Great Old Ones compared to D&D gods and archfiends is massively open to interpretation.

It boils down to a similar debate to "Could a Star Destroyer beat The Enterprise" - it all depends on your PoV in regards to the relevant fandom.

My 2 coppers: if I was to stat them in my games, they would be similar in terms of power to various existing gods and archfiends, for the sake of simplicity.

CoC d20 isn't a bad starting point for using/statting them in 3.X games. I'm not familiar with the PF versions (not being a PF player myself), but that would also probably be useful.

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## blackwindbears

The Planar Binding spell begins:
"Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spells range."

How does this work from the outsiders perspective?  If you don't use a true name you just get a general outsider of the correct type. How is this selected? Lure seems to imply that they aren't literally proofed at random but they perhaps make a decision with a will save to avoid.

Is the fiend selected completely at random or is it predictable in some sense a fiend is selected "closest" to what is described or something

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## afroakuma

Every time I have tried to answer these questions over the past week, my computer has crashed. Let's see if I get lucky this time  :Small Sigh: 




> How common are elementite swarms on the elemental planes?


Likely more common than we would expect based on encounter rates alone - they *are* tiny elementals on planes of the same matter, after all.




> What causes immature elementals to congregate in this manner?


Two possibilities, not necessarily mutually exclusive:

1) Whatever force sparks an elemental animus to its inception activates a cluster all at once, and they stay congregated until they develop sufficient individuality and self-sufficiency to break away from the swarm.

2) Clustering together affords security against the strange predators of the elemental planes who would feast on immature elementals. Safety in numbers and all that.




> What is known about Anarazel the Daring Darkness, the demon prince of adventurers?


Very little, though I am sketching up a loose idea for him. His layer is the 79th layer of the Abyss, the Emessu Tunnels.




> What unique demon is the least Chaotic of those who still officially are Chaotic Evil (as opposed to one which has officially fallen law-wards to Neutral Evil)


Graz'zt, though he's still monumentally chaotic and in zero danger of alignment shift.




> The Planar Binding spell begins:
> "Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spells range."
> 
> How does this work from the outsiders perspective?


They feel the draw of a tantalizing offer - a compulsion like hunger, thirst, or any other fundamental desire. Even a modron would feel pulled to rectify the chaos of the universe. If they give in and give it their attention, they are whisked into the trap.




> If you don't use a true name you just get a general outsider of the correct type. How is this selected?


The construction of the spell seeks out an outsider of the appropriate type - based on the carefully-prepared parameters in the case of a wizard casting, or the sense of need projected by a sorcerer's spell. The specific individual determined isn't set by the spell unless an individual is named - rather, the spell just goes for path of least resistance. What exactly constitutes the "path" is all bizarre arcane metaphysics, but that's conjuration for you.




> Is the fiend selected completely at random or is it predictable in some sense a fiend is selected "closest" to what is described or something


You can't deliberately try to nab a fiend away from a particular spot, if that's what you're asking, unless you can name the individual. No conjuring of "the fiend guarding the door to the treasure vault."

----------


## Kalkra

I assume that this if the place to ask this. Are there stats for the Queen of Chaos in 3e or 3.5 anywhere? I've seen it referenced, but I couldn't find it.

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## Thurbane

Not sure about anything official, but here's a fan-made 3.0 conversion: *Queen of Chaos*

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## Kalkra

> Not sure about anything official, but here's a fan-made 3.0 conversion: *Queen of Chaos*


Seems to be what I saw referenced, no wonder I couldn't find it. Thanks.

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## Bohandas

It's worth noting that that statblock contridicts the Queen of Chaos' few official 3.5e stats. According to Fiendish Codex 1 (pg 106) the Queen is an Obyrith and thus should have resistance to acid, cold, electricity, and fire and continuous _True Seeing_

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## Dalmosh

> Originally Posted by Bohandas 
> What is known about Anarazel the Daring Darkness, the demon prince of adventurers?


Green Ronin's Armies of the Abyss is explicitly 3rd Party (and not especially afro-canon compatible), but it's pretty good 3rd party and really deserves mention here since it was co-written by Erik Mona of Fiendish Codex 1 fame, who explicitly intended it to expand upon the cosmology presented officially in FC1. It very obviously assigns WotC IP Lords different (very similar) placeholder names while focussing around minor Lords, expanding several mentioned by name only in the back of FC1.  

In canon, these Lords are officially only throwaway references from sources like Hellbound:the Blood War and Faces of Evil, but since the names are mostly drawn from (I think) Babylonian mythology they are open content.  Anarazel is such an entity, as is Abraxus the Unfathomable, Azazel the Outcast Prince, Socotbenoth the Persuader, Nocticula the Undeniable and Haagenti Lord of Alchemy

----------


## Tzardok

> It's worth noting that that statblock contridicts the Queen of Chaos' few official 3.5e stats. According to Fiendish Codex 1 (pg 106) the Queen is an Obyrith and thus should have resistance to acid, cold, electricity, and fire and continuous _True Seeing_


Not to mention a unique Form of Madness.

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## Bohandas

Do ALL bounded spaces in Sigil eventually become portals? And if not, what are the restrictions? Also, how long foes it take?




> Not to mention a unique Form of Madness.


You're right, I forgot that one (ironically that was originally going to be the only thing I pointed out, but then I looked up what else the obyriths had going on and somehow only remembered those things when I posted)

----------


## Tzardok

> Do ALL bounded spaces in Sigil eventually become portals? And if not, what are the restrictions? Also, how long foes it take?


All the portals in Sigil are controlled be the Lady. She and she alone decides wether a doorway is portal and what exactly opens it. Yes, that means that sometimes every portal is closed and entirely new ones open at her whim. Luckily that happens only very rarely.

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## Thurbane

> It's worth noting that that statblock contridicts the Queen of Chaos' few official 3.5e stats. According to Fiendish Codex 1 (pg 106) the Queen is an Obyrith and thus should have resistance to acid, cold, electricity, and fire and continuous _True Seeing_





> Not to mention a unique Form of Madness.


Maybe we can tweak that stat block to be more 3.5 compliant?

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## Tzardok

So, I converted those stats to 3.5. The only thing I need is a Form of Madness. Anyone any ideas?

*Spoiler: Queen of Chaos*
Show


*Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Obyrith)*
*Hit Dice:* 20d8+120 (210 hp)
*Initiative:* +5 (+1 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
*Speed:* 20 ft, swim 40 ft
*AC:* 34 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +25 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 33
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +20/+39
*Attack:* _+5 anarchic returning trident_ +35 melee (1d12+16 and 2d6 chaotic damage to lawful creatures); or tentacle melee +29 (2d4+11); or _+5 anarchic returning trident_ +20 ranged (1d12+11 and 2d6 chaotic damage to lawful creatures)
*Full Attack:* _+5 anarchic returning trident_ +35/+30/+25/+20 melee (1d12+16 and 2d6 chaotic damage to lawful creatures) and 2 tentacles +27 melee (2d4+5); or _+5 anarchic returning trident_ +20 ranged (1d12+11 and 2d6 chaotic damage to lawful creatures)
*Face/Reach*: 15 ft/15 ft (60 ft with tentacles)
*Special Attacks:* Constrict (2d4+11), crush (2d6+11), form of madness, improved grab, noxious cloud, spell-like abilities, tear (2d6+5)
*Special Qualities:* Chaos gate, damage reduction 20/cold iron, epic and lawful, darkvision 60 ft, empathic link, immunity to mind-affecting and poison, regeneration 10, resistance 20 to cold, electricity, fire and acid, SR 34, telepathy 100 ft, _true sight_
*Saves:* Fort +18, Ref +13, Will +19
*Abilities:* Str 32, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 20
*Skills:* Bluff +28, Concentration +29, Diplomacy +32, Disguise +5 (+7 to pretend to be someone else), Hide -7, Intimidate +30, Knowledge (arcana) +30, Knowledge (Nature) +9, Knowledge (the planes) +30, Knowledge (history) +30, Listen +38, Search +30, Sense Motive +30, Sleight of Hand +3, Spellcraft +32, Spot +38, Survival +30 (+32 when tracking someone, +32 on other planes), Swim +42, Use Magic Item +28, Use Rope +1 (+3 to tie someone up)
*Feats:* Dark SpeechB, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (trident)
*Climate/Terrain:* Abyss (Steaming Fen)
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 24
*Treasure:* Double standard
*Alignment:* Chaotic evil
*
Spell-Like Abilities:* _At willchain lightning, chaos hammer, clairvoyance/clairaudience, deeper darkness, desecrate, detect good, detect law, detect magic, fear, greater dispel magic, major image, magic circle against law, magic missile, mantle of chaos, mass charm monster, pyrotechnics, read magic, slow, suggestion, symbol of death, symbol of insanity, symbol of pain, symbol of persuasion, symbol of weakness, telekinesis, greater teleport_ (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), _tongues_ (self only), _unhallow, ventriloquism,_  and _word of chaos_; 3/day_polymorph any object_; 1/day_circle of death_. These abilities are as the spells cast by a 20th-level sorcerer (save DC 15 + spell level).
*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, the Queen must hit an opponent with a tentacle attack. If she gets a hold, she can constrict.
*Constrict (Ex):* The Queen deals 2d4+11 points of damage with a successful grapple check against Large or smaller creatures. She may pass a trapped creature to the tentacles on her lower body in order to free up her primary tentacles. This is a free action. A foe still takes constriction damage each round regardless of which tentacle holds it.
An attack with a slashing weapon that deals at least 15 points of damage severs a tentacle (AC 25).
*Tear (Ex):* A beak hidden among her tentacles automatically bites a trapped opponent for 2d6+5 points of damage each round.
*Noxious Cloud (Su):* Affected as by deeper darkness and stinking cloud, cone, 30 feet, every hour; Fortitude save (DC 26).
*Crush (Ex):* The Queen may place a constricted opponent under her massive lower body as a standard action. A trapped opponent takes 2d6+11 points of crushing damage per round. A creature may escape by making an Escape Artist check or Strength check with a DC of 32.
*Empathic Link (Su):* The Queen has a sixth sense concerning the Rod of Seven Parts and can sense its precise location when a creature begins assembling the pieces or when the wielder uses one of the Rods powers. This ability is not inhibited by distance or plane, though she can only detect the Rod if it is in the Abyss, the Material Plane, or the current plane in which she is traveling.
*Regeneration (Ex):* The Queen of Chaos takes normal damage from lawful wepaons and effects and from epic weapons. If she loses a tentacle or body part, the lost portion regrows in 4d12 hours.
*Chaos Gate (Su):* Three times per hour, when the Queen detects the Rod being used, she can create a gate within 30 feet of her. The other end opens in the Abyss or the Material Plane 30-120 feet away from the current wielder of the Rod. For each piece of the Rod that has been assembled, subtract 10 feet from the distance the gate appears in front of the wielder. Through this gate, the Queen will send a pack or troupe of spider-demons to slay the wielder and retrieve the Rod.
Any creature except for demons that steps through the gate (on either side) has a 25% chance of being swept to a random outer plane of existence.
Objects and magical effects cannot pass through the chaos gate unless worn or carried.
*Form of Madness (Su):* Any creature within 120 feet that observes the Queen of Chaos must attempt a Will save. Failure means that the creature perceives the endless rift of chaos that the obyriths desire to bring about across the multiverse, standing fascinated until broken free of the effect. Creatures so affected take a -4 penalty to saving throws to escape being fascinated (such as due to an approaching hostile creature), and must make a save (with a +4 bonus) for any other circumstance that would normally end fascination immediately. Blocking off the creature's line of sight to the Queen completely instantly ends the fascination, as does _dispel chaos_ or a _dictum_. Similar effects may also be successful.

The horror of the Queen's form of madness is particularly insidious. A creature that has failed a saving throw against this effect begins to believe the world is inherently wrong, that lines and shapes and order are a kind of toxic rigidity, a prison for the mind, a chain for the soul. The victim suffers a -2 morale penalty to any action done at the direction of another, whether an order, an encouragement, or a suggestion, as they dread the idea that freedom may not exist. Similarly, they take a -2 morale penalty to any rolls made while knowingly in the company of lawful creatures, as they suffer from a terror that such beings are automatons attempting to keep the multiverse in a fixed and inescapable state. Once per week, the victim must make another Will save. On a failure, they suffer 1 point of Wisdom drain and their alignment shifts one step toward chaotic evil. A victim whose Wisdom reaches 0 is transformed into a beast of chaos.

_Heal_ or _greater restoration_ can cure the effects if the caster makes a DC 30 caster level check, as can _modify memory_ if the experience of seeing the Queen is removed from the victim's mind. Any Wisdom drain sustained converts to Wisdom damage and recovers normally. The experience of changing alignment, even temporarily, may have long-term repercussions for the victim. Once the transformation is complete, only a _wish_ or _miracle_ can reverse it - such spells will also instantly cure the effects of the form of madness.



Edit: Form of Madness, get!

----------


## Bohandas

Maybe an effect akin to the spells _Insanity_, _Maddening Scream_, and/or _Maddening Whispers_ (with the specific version of maddening whispers being chosen randomly)

Or perhaps creatures see her as their true rightful ruler

EDIT:
Or maybe their alignment moves one step towards chaotic

EDIT:
No. I've got it. Her form of madness should induce random changes in personality, mirroring the environmental changes wrought by her "waves of chaos" ability (which should be included in the chaos gate ability BTW. in the module opening a chaos gate has a 20% chance of altering the local environment (to varying degrees in terms of ecology, topography, geography, climate etc) and screwing with the timelines of anyone caught in the radius of the change (and not protected by the powers of Law) so that to them it's always been that way). In cases where the save is failed by a large margin, perhaps physical changes may occur as well, or corruption points (see Heroes of Horror) may be accumulated.


EDIT:
Also, use of the chaos gate power isn't intrinsically tied to the rod; it's simply one of the Queen's powers. And it's supposed to prematurely age non-demons, not randomly dispatch them.

EDIT:
As an aside, I wonder whether it is intentional that the Queen, as described in the module, looks exactly like Ursula the Sea Witch from Disney's _The Little Mermaid_ which came out seven years earlier (lower body of a cephalopod, upper body of a fat lady, and blue skin)

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## Tzardok

> EDIT:
> As an aside, I wonder whether it is intentional that the Queen, as described in the module, looks exactly like Ursula the Sea Witch from Disney's _The Little Mermaid_ which came out seven years earlier (lower body of a cephalopod, upper body of a fat lady, and blue skin)


She also carries a trident. Curious...

Edit: Maybe her Form of Madness makes people unable to talk.  :Small Big Grin:

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## Clistenes

We know that deities know everything related to their portfolio so long as it happens within a Crystal Sphere where they are worshiped by the locals (some more than others... demigods only know about it if it affects a lot of people...).

We know they can perceive anything that happens in a large radius around their worshipers, temples, holy symbols and parts of their portfolio...

But that is limited to their turf... Kelemvor may know that a Faerunian is going to die a month before it happens, but he knows no **** about who is dying on Krynn...

My question is, what about the Planes? These are kinda common ground, they don't belong to any pantheon in particular... are gods flying blind when it comes to what happens in the Planes?

Let say Bane is hunting some guy who escapes to the Planes... Is he restricted to regular spells? Does he just command his many proxies and clerics to regularly cast divinations searching for clues?

In some settings allied deities automatically share information, so everything Selune knows is known by Chauntea, for example... but they probably don't share it freely with deities from other pantheons, otherwise you their enemies learning critical information that has jumped from pantheon to pantheon...

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## Bartmanhomer

Are there any mermaids or merfolks deities that exist?  :Confused:

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## Bohandas

> Are there any mermaids or merfolks deities that exist?


Eadro

from Stormwrack, pg.49:

"Eadro is the patron deity of locathah, merfolk, and tritons. All three races claim him as their creator, each pointing to itself as the most perfect example of sea folk. His symbol is a spiral or whirlpool. He appears as a tall and perfect specimen of his worshipers race."

He's true neutral and his domains are Protection, Seafolk, and Water




> So, I converted those stats to 3.5. The only thing I need is a Form of Madness. Anyone any ideas?
> 
> *Spoiler: Queen of Chaos*
> Show
> 
> 
> *Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Obyrith)*
> *Hit Dice:* 20d8+120 (210 hp)
> *Initiative:* +5 (+1 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
> ...


Personally I'd keep the stuff that was upgraded from obyrith standard in the initial version. I know I pointed out her not having the standard obyrith resistances, but I had thought that they were missing entirely; I think maybe I must have searched the document for the exact values or something, or maybe for "resist acid" onstead of "acid resistance" or I didn't notice them because they'd been consolidated into a single special quality. The same goes for her having regeneration instead of fast healing; That's true to the original module and makes sense for a more powerful creature. although I would change the conditions that can overcome it to lawful effects (ie. Axiomatic weapons and direct damage from [law] spells) and epic magic weapons

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## Tzardok

I'm going to think about it. But first I would like to ask a few questions about the kamarel:

What is known about the kamarel's mirror magic? What quality allowed it to ignore the Spire's magic suppressing trait? Could it be reconstructed, or is that quality present in modern day mirror magic?
And finally, what, if any, would be the relationship between the kamarel and the nerra?

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## Silent Alarm

Is there any relationship between The Church of Hala's Weave (Ravenloft) and Mystra's (Forgotten Realm) Weave?

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## Dalmosh

Are Fiendish Familiars the flayed and magically treated faces of fiends that subsequently develop magical sentience on creation; or are they sponteously arising face-shaped beings in their own right that are harvested from the Lower Planes and then grafted on to hosts?

If the former, are they more commonly made by fiends, or by Prime spellcasters? What would be the typical process involved?

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## blackwindbears

For fiendish promotion, what are the fiendish superiors trading off against. Why not promote all Lemures to Pit Fiends and win the blood war with a nearly limitless number of them. Is it costly somehow? Is there a risk that if the promotion candidate is insufficiently an exemplar of the alignment that the promotion will fail?

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## Bohandas

> For fiendish promotion, what are the fiendish superiors trading off against. Why not promote all Lemures to Pit Fiends and win the blood war with a nearly limitless number of them. Is it costly somehow? Is there a risk that if the promotion candidate is insufficiently an exemplar of the alignment that the promotion will fail?


The 9 Hells have a limited energy supply that's extracted from damned souls. The Abyss' energy supply is potentially unlimited but the supply available to any particular archfiend is probably significantly smaller

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## ExLibrisMortis

Fiends are not terribly keen on handing out power to potential challengers, and they don't trust their underlings. No fiend is going to promote someone if it jeopardizes their own position. There may be orders from above (to promote underlings for some purpose), short-term vs. long-term tradeoffs (promote useful minion to solve a problem now, deal with jumped-up underling later), and risks taken that don't work out (promote ambitious minion to bring them down all the harder), so there are still plenty of usurpations, but fiends look out for themselves first.

The "greater evil" may be something fiends work towards, but they do so for selfish reasons. Being the top dog, getting that self-interest to align with his own plans is Asmodeus' day job (in the case of devils, not all fiends, of course, though I daresay he strategizes about demons plenty).

----------


## Bohandas

> Fiends are not terribly keen on handing out power to potential challengers, and they don't trust their underlings. No fiend is going to promote someone if it jeopardizes their own position. There may be orders from above (to promote underlings for some purpose), short-term vs. long-term tradeoffs (promote useful minion to solve a problem now, deal with jumped-up underling later), and risks taken that don't work out (promote ambitious minion to bring them down all the harder), so there are still plenty of usurpations, but fiends look out for themselves first.
> 
> The "greater evil" may be something fiends work towards, but they do so for selfish reasons. Being the top dog, getting that self-interest to align with his own plans is Asmodeus' day job (in the case of devils, not all fiends, of course, though I daresay he strategizes about demons plenty).


Though this is for Hell specifically (maybe Gehenna too), as most Abyssal promotions seem to either come from the Abyss itself or else be akin to leveling up or else are doled out by the Lords of Woe who don't seem capable to promoting demons beyond the lower castes anyway. And the Demodands are IIRC based on being nearby when a higher caste Demodand dies

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## Bohandas

What compels the obedience of a creature under the effect of _Planar Binding_? It doesn't have the [mind affecting] tag, nor does it impose penalties like _Geas_

----------


## afroakuma

> The only thing I need is a Form of Madness. Anyone any ideas?


The Queen is a particularly major obyrith and should have something quite striking. My own proposal:

*Spoiler: Form of Madness*
Show

*Form of Madness (Su)* Any creature within 120 feet that observes the Queen of Chaos must attempt a Will save. Failure means that the creature perceives the endless rift of chaos that the obyriths desire to bring about across the multiverse, standing fascinated until broken free of the effect. Creatures so affected take a -4 penalty to saving throws to escape being fascinated (such as due to an approaching hostile creature), and must make a save (with a +4 bonus) for any other circumstance that would normally end fascination immediately. Blocking off the creature's line of sight to the Queen completely instantly ends the fascination, as does _dispel chaos_ or a _word of law_. Similar effects may also be successful.

The horror of the Queen's form of madness is particularly insidious. A creature that has failed a saving throw against this effect begins to believe the world is inherently wrong, that lines and shapes and order are a kind of toxic rigidity, a prison for the mind, a chain for the soul. The victim suffers a -2 morale penalty to any action done at the direction of another, whether an order, an encouragement, or a suggestion, as they dread the idea that freedom may not exist. Similarly, they take a -2 morale penalty to any rolls made while knowingly in the company of lawful creatures, as they suffer from a terror that such beings are automatons attempting to keep the multiverse in a fixed and inescapable state. Once per week, the victim must make another Will save. On a failure, they suffer 1 point of Wisdom drain and their alignment shifts one step toward chaotic evil. A victim whose Wisdom reaches 0 is transformed into a beast of chaos.

_Heal_ or _greater restoration_ can cure the effects if the caster makes a DC 30 caster level check, as can _modify memory_ if the experience of seeing the Queen is removed from the victim's mind. Any Wisdom drain sustained converts to Wisdom damage and recovers normally. The experience of changing alignment, even temporarily, may have long-term repercussions for the victim. Once the transformation is complete, only a _wish_ or _miracle_ can reverse it - such spells will also instantly cure the effects of the form of madness.





> My question is, what about the Planes? These are kinda common ground, they don't belong to any pantheon in particular... are gods flying blind when it comes to what happens in the Planes?


Beyond their own divine realms, they rely on divine senses and magic to learn about what's happening on the Planes, though they can perceive around their planar worshipers as well, provided something isn't blocking them.




> Are there any mermaids or merfolks deities that exist?


Oh quite. Merfolk worship Eadro and may also pay homage to Trishina, the dolphin goddess. However, at this time, it is rumored among some planar sages that Eadro's priests are receiving their spells from Persana, the triton god. Given that Eadro has always been an aloof deity, it's hard to say for certain what's going on.




> I'm going to think about it. But first I would like to ask a few questions about the kamarel:
> 
> What is known about the kamarel's mirror magic?


It functions as 1st level magic, making use of the unique properties of the Plane of Mirrors to effect the bulk of the "magical" work and the relative magical simplicity of interfacing with a reflective surface to tap into the magic. It's also considered impossible for a non-kamerel to make use of it. Only three "spells" are known - _scry mirror_, which allows distance viewing of an area near another mirror; _transport mirror_, which allows small objects or creatures to be moved between two prepared mirrors; and _spacial mirror_ (should really be _spatial_ but anyway), the absolute pinnacle of the art, which makes the area reflected within a mirror real, requiring a year of preparation to create the extradimensional link.




> What quality allowed it to ignore the Spire's magic suppressing trait?


None - mirror magic is 1st-level magic, and does not function beyond the final magic-safe ring of the Outlands. Closer to the Spire, even mirror magic fails.




> And finally, what, if any, would be the relationship between the kamarel and the nerra?


That, we do not know. It is possible that the nerra were created by the kamerel to observe the multiverse and enact their revenge for being displaced so long ago, given their own personal distaste for contact with others. It is equally possible that the nerra are unrelated natives of Mirror, or kamerel caught in a magical experiment.




> Is there any relationship between The Church of Hala's Weave (Ravenloft) and Mystra's (Forgotten Realm) Weave?


Only insofar as the latter informed teachings of the former - they are not linked.




> Are Fiendish Familiars the flayed and magically treated faces of fiends that subsequently develop magical sentience on creation; or are they sponteously arising face-shaped beings in their own right that are harvested from the Lower Planes and then grafted on to hosts?


The latter would be my guess, though they may not originally exist as face-shaped entities per se - this is likely an emergent quality of the symbiosis process.




> For fiendish promotion, what are the fiendish superiors trading off against. Why not promote all Lemures to Pit Fiends and win the blood war with a nearly limitless number of them. Is it costly somehow? Is there a risk that if the promotion candidate is insufficiently an exemplar of the alignment that the promotion will fail?


Besides the need for sufficient soul energy to flood into something to promote it, there are other major concerns - will the newly promoted fiend be trustworthy? (No.) Can the soul even endure the promotion? (Nope.) Is this particular lemure capable of the depths of evil and depravity necessary to succeed as a pit fiend? (Not a chance.) It's not just about being, for instance, lawful evil enough - it's also about the fact that the promotion process itself is part and parcel of why it's valued. A lawful evil being expects to ascend up a ladder of progression with several steps, because to be lawful evil and hold power means that such a ladder must exist - what's the point of being a pit fiend if everyone is a pit fiend? Who would you order around? What makes you, personally, better and more clever than another?

Demonic promotions are more haphazard, but similarly are about individual will and hungers - it's easy to want power, but a successful demon has to understand how much it sucks to not have any - and, most importantly, how much it should suck for others once the demon finally attains even a little bit of power. 

Finally, remember that most of Baator and the Abyss don't actually care about the Blood War - it's hardly a priority for the real higher-ups (lower-downs?) and certainly not something to fling all of their resources at. Fiends are the absolute masters of selfishness.




> What compels the obedience of a creature under the effect of _Planar Binding_? It doesn't have the [mind affecting] tag, nor does it impose penalties like _Geas_


Technically what you're doing isn't forcing its mind to obey you; you are prescribing conditions under which it is free to move about the Material Plane, in effect loosening the restrictions of the conjuration and its attendant abjuration (the _magic circle_ you used to bind them) and in doing so offering them both a way back home and a way to get free of the trap you have bound them in. Note that because it is not a mental compulsion, they are under no obligation to robotically follow a directive - they can and will intentionally screw with your instructions if they don't like you, forcing care and precision. So really all you're doing is changing the properties of the _magic circle_ to allow them to move free from it while remaining enjoined by specific directions you lay out in the deal.

----------


## Bartmanhomer

What would happen if a fire elemental mates with water elemental and gave birth to a fire/water elemental offspring? Does the same thing happen if an air elemental mates with earth elemental and gave birth to an air/earth elemental offspring?

----------


## Batcathat

> What would happen if a fire elemental mates with water elemental and gave birth to a fire/water elemental offspring?


Would it be crass to make a joke about steamy sex?  :Small Amused:

----------


## Tzardok

> The Queen is a particularly major obyrith and should have something quite striking. My own proposal:
> 
> *Spoiler: Form of Madness*
> Show
> 
> *Form of Madness (Su)* Any creature within 120 feet that observes the Queen of Chaos must attempt a Will save. Failure means that the creature perceives the endless rift of chaos that the obyriths desire to bring about across the multiverse, standing fascinated until broken free of the effect. Creatures so affected take a -4 penalty to saving throws to escape being fascinated (such as due to an approaching hostile creature), and must make a save (with a +4 bonus) for any other circumstance that would normally end fascination immediately. Blocking off the creature's line of sight to the Queen completely instantly ends the fascination, as does _dispel chaos_ or a _word of law_. Similar effects may also be successful.
> 
> The horror of the Queen's form of madness is particularly insidious. A creature that has failed a saving throw against this effect begins to believe the world is inherently wrong, that lines and shapes and order are a kind of toxic rigidity, a prison for the mind, a chain for the soul. The victim suffers a -2 morale penalty to any action done at the direction of another, whether an order, an encouragement, or a suggestion, as they dread the idea that freedom may not exist. Similarly, they take a -2 morale penalty to any rolls made while knowingly in the company of lawful creatures, as they suffer from a terror that such beings are automatons attempting to keep the multiverse in a fixed and inescapable state. Once per week, the victim must make another Will save. On a failure, they suffer 1 point of Wisdom drain and their alignment shifts one step toward chaotic evil. A victim whose Wisdom reaches 0 is transformed into a beast of chaos.
> 
> _Heal_ or _greater restoration_ can cure the effects if the caster makes a DC 30 caster level check, as can _modify memory_ if the experience of seeing the Queen is removed from the victim's mind. Any Wisdom drain sustained converts to Wisdom damage and recovers normally. The experience of changing alignment, even temporarily, may have long-term repercussions for the victim. Once the transformation is complete, only a _wish_ or _miracle_ can reverse it - such spells will also instantly cure the effects of the form of madness.


Now that is evil. Let's steal it.  :Small Amused: 





> It functions as 1st level magic, making use of the unique properties of the Plane of Mirrors to effect the bulk of the "magical" work and the relative magical simplicity of interfacing with a reflective surface to tap into the magic. It's also considered impossible for a non-kamerel to make use of it. Only three "spells" are known - _scry mirror_, which allows distance viewing of an area near another mirror; _transport mirror_, which allows small objects or creatures to be moved between two prepared mirrors; and _spacial mirror_ (should really be _spatial_ but anyway), the absolute pinnacle of the art, which makes the area reflected within a mirror real, requiring a year of preparation to create the extradimensional link.


Very interesting. Thank you.




> That, we do not know. It is possible that the nerra were created by the kamerel to observe the multiverse and enact their revenge for being displaced so long ago, given their own personal distaste for contact with others. It is equally possible that the nerra are unrelated natives of Mirror, or kamerel caught in a magical experiment.


The Plane of Mirrors really needs to be fleshed out someday. Currently it's just bare bones.




> What would happen if a fire elemental mates with water elemental and gave birth to a fire/water elemental offspring? Does the same thing happen if an air elemental mates with earth elemental and gave birth to an air/earth elemental offspring?


I don't think elementals _mate_ the way you are imagine it (or any way found in natural biology). What I could imagine is that they _fuse_. But that would most likely be a rare event, as fire and water (and to a lesser extent air and earth) are quite incompatible, as seen for example by the description of the omnimental.
If it happened, we would get possibly some kind of aberrant paraelemental or a proto-omnimental searching out the missing elements to become complete or something like that.

----------


## Eldan

My personal headcanon for fiendish familiars, the one time they came up, was that they are born from Ultroloths. Ultroloths, it was hinted at in one of the old books, ritually flay their own faces off to erase their identities and make themselves harder to track and identify with magic.

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## Bartmanhomer

> I don't think elementals _mate_ the way you are imagine it (or any way found in natural biology). What I could imagine is that they _fuse_. But that would most likely be a rare event, as fire and water (and to a lesser extent air and earth) are quite incompatible, as seen for example by the description of the omnimental.
> If it happened, we would get possibly some kind of aberrant paraelemental or a proto-omnimental searching out the missing elements to become complete or something like that.


Oh really? That's a bummer.  :Frown:

----------


## Tzardok

> Oh really? That's a bummer.


I am not sure what you were expecting. I mean, how do you imagine a flame and a wave doing the horizontal tango anyway?  :Small Confused:  :Small Eek:

----------


## Saint-Just

What is the primary source for (seen quite a few times in these threads) piece of lore, namely: the "Guardian of the Dead Gods" is not a god anymore (but still can kick anyone's ass seven ways to Sunday) and doesn't like to be referred as "Anubis" anymore

----------


## Thurbane

Was the dwarven deity Clangeddin Silverbeard always specific to the Forgotten Realms? I seem to remember back in 1E days he was either setting neutral, or possibly from the Greyhawk dwarven pantheon?

Or am I misremembering?

----------


## Tzardok

> Was the dwarven deity Clangeddin Silverbeard always specific to the Forgotten Realms? I seem to remember back in 1E days he was either setting neutral, or possibly from the Greyhawk dwarven pantheon?
> 
> Or am I misremembering?


Everything I found in my search tells me that the Dwaven Pantheon is identical on all worlds it gets worshipped on and (except for when Races of Stone replaced them with suspiciously similiar substitutes) didn't change much, if at all, over the editions. That includes Clangeddin.

----------


## Tiktakkat

> Was the dwarven deity Clangeddin Silverbeard always specific to the Forgotten Realms? I seem to remember back in 1E days he was either setting neutral, or possibly from the Greyhawk dwarven pantheon?
> 
> Or am I misremembering?


You are not misremembering.

The first reference to Clangeddin is in the AD&D D&DG. He does not have a write up, but is merely mentioned as part of the dwarven pantheon in the description of Moradin.

A note in Dragon #64, which introduced Raxivort, said that the non-human deities from D&DG were suitable for use in Greyhawk, with some notes shifting home planes of the humanoid deities about.

The first write up of Clangeddin is in Dragon #58, part of a series on the non-human races available for player characters, which included an expanded pantheon.

That deities from that series were reprinted in Unearthed Arcana (AD&D 1st version).

They were included in DMRG4 Monster Mythology.

The Greyhawk setting boxed set From the Ashes included a note that the demihuman pantheons from Monster Mythology were found in Greyhawk.

----------


## Thurbane

> Everything I found in my search tells me that the Dwaven Pantheon is identical on all worlds it gets worshipped on and (except for when Races of Stone replaced them with suspiciously similiar substitutes) didn't change much, if at all, over the editions. That includes Clangeddin.





> You are not misremembering.
> 
> The first reference to Clangeddin is in the AD&D D&DG. He does not have a write up, but is merely mentioned as part of the dwarven pantheon in the description of Moradin.
> 
> A note in Dragon #64, which introduced Raxivort, said that the non-human deities from D&DG were suitable for use in Greyhawk, with some notes shifting home planes of the humanoid deities about.
> 
> The first write up of Clangeddin is in Dragon #58, part of a series on the non-human races available for player characters, which included an expanded pantheon.
> 
> That deities from that series were reprinted in Unearthed Arcana (AD&D 1st version).
> ...


Thank you both: his only 3E writeups appear in FR books, so I wanted to double check. I run a Greyhawk game, primarily.

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## Bartmanhomer

> I am not sure what you were expecting. I mean, how do you imagine a flame and a wave doing the horizontal tango anyway?


I thought it would be a good idea though but I guess I was wrong. Oh well.  :Frown:   :Sigh:

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## Bohandas

> I am not sure what you were expecting. I mean, how do you imagine a flame and a wave doing the horizontal tango anyway?


Covered in oil

----------


## Bohandas

> Everything I found in my search tells me that the Dwaven Pantheon is identical on all worlds it gets worshipped on and (except for when Races of Stone replaced them with suspiciously similiar substitutes) didn't change much, if at all, over the editions. That includes Clangeddin.


In Dragonlance they're all replaced by the god Reorx

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## Tzardok

> In Dragonlance they're all replaced by the god Reorx


Hence me saying "on all worlds where they are worshipped". On Krynn they aren't worshipped, so that world is irrelevant to the discussion.

----------


## Hand_of_Vecna

In our most recent session my character became infatuated with a sorceress who turned out to be a Green Slaad that was presumably impersonating the spell caster it was created from. The Slaad was eventually revealed and had a distinctly different personality from the sorceress and my character now wants to find a way to save this sorceress.

How extra dead is she? The DM is obviously the final arbiter, but what might be involved in restoring her? True Resurrection is a boring obvious answer. We're level eight and have several powerful contacts who could launch us into Planes hopping. This Green Slaad was created by a Blue so that means no original body, right?

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## Clistenes

> In our most recent session my character became infatuated with a sorceress who turned out to be a Green Slaad that was presumably impersonating the spell caster it was created from. The Slaad was eventually revealed and had a distinctly different personality from the sorceress and my character now wants to find a way to save this sorceress.
> 
> How extra dead is she? The DM is obviously the final arbiter, but what might be involved in restoring her? True Resurrection is a boring obvious answer. We're level eight and have several powerful contacts who could launch us into Planes hopping. This Green Slaad was created by a Blue so that means no original body, right?


Killing the Slaad, destroying the body and then using Wish or Miracle to resurrect the original sorceress should do the trick, I think.

----------


## Bartmanhomer

Why aren't there any good and evil elemental deities but there are good and evil elemental lords?  :Confused:

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## Bohandas

> Green Ronin's Armies of the Abyss is explicitly 3rd Party (and not especially afro-canon compatible), but it's pretty good 3rd party and really deserves mention here since it was co-written by Erik Mona of Fiendish Codex 1 fame, who explicitly intended it to expand upon the cosmology presented officially in FC1. It very obviously assigns WotC IP Lords different (very similar) placeholder names while focussing around minor Lords, expanding several mentioned by name only in the back of FC1.


Bought it a few days ago. I'm a little bit disappointed with their handling of the demon lord of adventurers. I would have thought he would lean more heavily on murderhoboism and handling problems with violence and excessive force.

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## Tzardok

> Killing the Slaad, destroying the body and then using Wish or Miracle to resurrect the original sorceress should do the trick, I think.


If you use Wish or Miracle, is killing the Slaad even necessary?




> Why aren't there any good and evil elemental deities but there are good and evil elemental lords?


Logically one would assume that the gods/lords/whatever of the elements are neutral, as the elements themselves are unaligned. I remember two explanations for why there are princes of elemental good and of elemental evil, but I don't remember which one, if any, is canonical:
The first is that the originally neutral elemental lords where corrupted by the Elder Elemental Eye (one of Tharizdun's disguises), whereupon the Elemental Planes spawned the princes of elemental good as a counter balance.
The second connects the schism to the War of Law and Chaos, where some elemental lords fought on the side of Law and others on the side of Chaos and changed their alignments based on their and their allies' methods.

----------


## Bohandas

If half-fiends have a chariama bonus why do tieflings have a charisma penalty?

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## Thurbane

> If half-fiends have a chariama bonus why do tieflings have a charisma penalty?


Because WotC hates evil races.

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## Tzardok

> If half-fiends have a chariama bonus why do tieflings have a charisma penalty?


Because tieflings only inherit Evil's foulness, but not it's seductiveness?

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## Tiktakkat

> Because tieflings only inherit Evil's foulness, but not it's seductiveness?


Except for Annah in Planescape: Torment.
And Kylie in Faces of Sigil.

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## Tzardok

> Except for Annah in Planescape: Torment.
> And Kylie in Faces of Sigil.


Those are seductive in spite of their ancestry, not because of it.  :Small Tongue:

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## Tiktakkat

> Those are seductive in spite of their ancestry, not because of it.


I thought it was because of their tails.  :Biggrin: 

(And Sheena Easton doing the voice work for Annah.)

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## Bohandas

Is there any reason why becoming a templated undead is not people's preferred afterlife? Because the reasons that would apply in most fantasy or horror settings are reversed in D&D; the undead (or at least templated undead) retain their faculties and their identities, whereas souls that have moved on to the next world wander their afterlife in a semi-conscious fugue state.

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## Tzardok

> Is there any reason why becoming a templated undead is not people's preferred afterlife? Because the reasons that would apply in most fantasy or horror settings are reversed in D&D; the undead (or at least templated undead) retain their faculties and their identities, whereas souls that have moved on to the next world wander their afterlife in a semi-conscious fugue state.


Petitioners aren't "semi-concious", they just lose (most of) their memories;Undead souls are often static, unable to change. while petitioners can grow closer to their god/the concepts underlying their plane until they fuse with them or evolve into something _more_, an archon for example;Undead are unnatural and bring more negative energy (and with it decay and destruction) to the world, need to feed on the living, are mentally parodies of their original personality or a combination of those three points;Most people don't know about all those things and so believe that they go to paradise with their everything intact, while undead are scary and ugly.

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## PairO'Dice Lost

> Is there any reason why becoming a templated undead is not people's preferred afterlife? Because the reasons that would apply in most fantasy or horror settings are reversed in D&D; the undead (or at least templated undead) retain their faculties and their identities, whereas souls that have moved on to the next world wander their afterlife in a semi-conscious fugue state.


Becoming a templated undead isn't an option that most people can just decide to take.  Most forms of undeadification require strong personal magical capabilities (lich, dry lich, worm that walks), the sponsorship of particular gods (death knight, mummy/mummified creature, gravetouched ghoul), the assistance/intervention of other people/creatures/items (necropolitan, vampire, scion of Kyuss), unpredictable or otherwise un-guarantee-able circumstances (bodak, ghost, swordwraith), and so forth.  If Joe Commoner decides that all the afterlives suck and he'd rather be an undead, there's not much he can do to bring that about without spending a lot of time and effort on that, whereas getting into the afterlife of one's choice just requires one to faithfully follow a deity.

Even evil creatures who have no compunctions whatsoever about doing the morally-questionable things that might cause them to spontaneously rise as various kinds of undead and/or would be happy serving an evil god in hopes of earning undeath as a reward would often be better served visiting the temple of Bane once a week and donating to its Conquering Widows and Orphans fund to secure a place in Acheron as a more-or-less-humanoid-like petitioner than trying to pursue esoteric forms of undeath, simply because becoming undead under those circumstances is nowhere near guaranteed whereas becoming a petitioner basically is guaranteed if you're faithful.

And that's before you get to all the practical and social limitations of undeath: undead creatures aren't welcome in most civilized regions because all the Lich Queens and Dread Emperors in a given world's history frittered away any goodwill a non-evil sapient undead might have had, someone who's undead can't really enjoy the pleasures of the flesh the way petitioner in Kord's realm can with their endless feasting or a petitioner in Sune's realm can with their endless...scintillating conversation, and so on.  Compared to that, most people hoping to be faithful enough that their patron deity restores their memory core to them in the afterlife to enjoy eternal luxury as themselves looks like a better option most of the time.




> Undead souls are often static, unable to change. while petitioners can grow closer to their god/the concepts underlying their plane until they fuse with them or evolve into something _more_, an archon for example;Undead are unnatural and bring more negative energy (and with it decay and destruction) to the world, need to feed on the living, are mentally parodies of their original personality or a combination of those three points;


Neither of those points is really supported in the lore.  Regarding the former, a sapient undead can grow, learn, and change just as much in undeath as it could in life--and in fact that's kinda the whole point of the various varieties of lich, with "keep learning spells and hoarding magic items until I possess Phenomenal Cosmic Arcane Power!" being a major motivation for most of them--while many mortals don't particularly care about "becoming something more" in the abstract and can hang around for quite a while in the afterlife before merging with their plane or ascending into some other kind of outsider.

Regarding the latter, undead creatures the _positive energy-challenged_ are just as natural as any other form of life, since negative energy is just as much an integral building block of the cosmos as is the positive energy that powers most mortal creatures or the elemental energy that makes up elemental creatures and powers many constructs.  Animating a new negative-energy-powered skeleton doesn't noticeably increase the amount of free negative energy on the Material Plane and bring decay everywhere it goes any more than a new positive-energy-powered humanoid being born noticeably increases the amount of free positive energy on the Material Plane and brings growth everywhere it goes.  Sure, ghouls need to eat flesh and vampires need to drink blood, but the only difference between a ghoul chowing down on an elf and a lion chowing down on a gazelle is that the elf is sapient and can complain about it, and while that may make the ghoul evil it doesn't make it "unnatural."

----------


## Bartmanhomer

> Logically one would assume that the gods/lords/whatever of the elements are neutral, as the elements themselves are unaligned. I remember two explanations for why there are princes of elemental good and of elemental evil, but I don't remember which one, if any, is canonical:
> The first is that the originally neutral elemental lords where corrupted by the Elder Elemental Eye (one of Tharizdun's disguises), whereupon the Elemental Planes spawned the princes of elemental good as a counter balance.
> The second connects the schism to the War of Law and Chaos, where some elemental lords fought on the side of Law and others on the side of Chaos and changed their alignments based on their and their allies' methods.


Wow. Ok, I understand the first part of Elder Elemental Eye part but I don't understand the War of Law and Chaos part.  :Confused:

----------


## Tzardok

> Neither of those points is really supported in the lore.  Regarding the former, a sapient undead can grow, learn, and change just as much in undeath as it could in life--and in fact that's kinda the whole point of the various varieties of lich, with "keep learning spells and hoarding magic items until I possess Phenomenal Cosmic Arcane Power!" being a major motivation for most of them--while many mortals don't particularly care about "becoming something more" in the abstract and can hang around for quite a while in the afterlife before merging with their plane or ascending into some other kind of outsider.


I used to wrong word; not static, stagnant. I am quite sure that Afro mentioned in one of the earlier threads that sapient undead have a noted tendency to not change much, to be set in their ways. He also mentioned that undead worship is less nourishing for deities and gave the stagnancy of their souls as a reason.
Regarding petitioners, all of them feel the drive to come closer to their planes/powers and fuse with them, but not all of them are in a hurry. They've got eternity.




> Regarding the latter, undead creatures the _positive energy-challenged_ are just as natural as any other form of life, since negative energy is just as much an integral building block of the cosmos as is the positive energy that powers most mortal creatures or the elemental energy that makes up elemental creatures and powers many constructs.  Animating a new negative-energy-powered skeleton doesn't noticeably increase the amount of free negative energy on the Material Plane and bring decay everywhere it goes any more than a new positive-energy-powered humanoid being born noticeably increases the amount of free positive energy on the Material Plane and brings growth everywhere it goes.  Sure, ghouls need to eat flesh and vampires need to drink blood, but the only difference between a ghoul chowing down on an elf and a lion chowing down on a gazelle is that the elf is sapient and can complain about it, and while that may make the ghoul evil it doesn't make it "unnatural."


I may be mistaken, but I distinctly remember Libris Mortis mentioning that undead are in some way funnels to the Negative Plane. What happens inside a ghoul is fundamentally different from what happens inside a lion. Inside a living being, the eaten thing becomes changed into a new state. That doesn't happen inside a feeding undead. Whatever is eaten by it gets funneld into the Negative and eradicated. Every time an undead feeds, it makes the world a little _less._




> Wow. Ok, I understand the first part of Elder Elemental Eye part but I don't understand the War of Law and Chaos part.


You remember the War of Law and Chaos, do you? Well, the story I heard went that during the War the elemental leaders chose sides. Most elementals sided with Law, but some went to Chaos.
So, for example, Zaaman Rul sided with Chaos. He fought side-by-side with the early Eladrin and learnt Good from them. Imix, on the other hand, chose Law. His allies were Asmodeus and his ilk, and he learnt Evil. 
Just an example. No idea wether it's true.

----------


## Bartmanhomer

> IYou remember the War of Law and Chaos, do you? Well, the story I heard went that during the War the elemental leaders chose sides. Most elementals sided with Law, but some went to Chaos.
> So, for example, Zaaman Rul sided with Chaos. He fought side-by-side with the early Eladrin and learnt Good from them. Imix, on the other hand, chose Law. His allies were Asmodeus and his ilk, and he learnt Evil. 
> Just an example. No idea wether it's true.


You mean to tell me that Chaos is good and Law is Evil? Where did I heard that before?  :Confused:

----------


## Tzardok

> You mean to tell me that Chaos is good and Law is Evil? Where did I heard that before?


No, that is not what I said at all.  :Small Sigh: 

To give another (most likely inacurate) example:

Yan-C-Bin sided with Chaos. He slaughtered side-by-side with demons and learned Evil. Chan took the banner with the archons or their precedessors and learned Good.

Do you now understand what I meant with "changed their alignments based on their and their allies' methods"?

----------


## Bartmanhomer

> No, that is not what I said at all. 
> 
> To give another (most likely inacurate) example:
> 
> Yan-C-Bin sided with Chaos. He slaughtered side-by-side with demons and learned Evil. Chan took the banner with the archons or their precedessors and learned Good.
> 
> Do you now understand what I meant with "changed their alignments based on their and their allies' methods"?


Forgive my ignorance but I'm still trying to grasp everything for what you said. I'm very confused here.  :Confused:

----------


## tyckspoon

> Forgive my ignorance but I'm still trying to grasp everything for what you said. I'm very confused here.


Not everybody involved in the War of Law and Chaos was pure Law or Chaos; their were still Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, Chaotic Evil factions, they just prioritized the Law/Chaos split in choosing sides at that time over the Good/Evil. Elementals that had previously been largely Neutral would be influenced depending on who they allied with - if you wound up fighting under Asmodeus and other fiends, you would learn the Evil perspective on Law and be influenced toward becoming Lawful Evil, or if you were more attracted to Chaos you might end up going marauding with demons and learning how to do Evil Chaotically. Same on the Good flip side: elementals who fought with angels would be drawn toward Good as well as law, while those who skirmished alongside free bands of Eladrins would tend to develop a Chaotic Good viewpoint to match their battle-brothers.

----------


## Bartmanhomer

> Not everybody involved in the War of Law and Chaos was pure Law or Chaos; there were still Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, Chaotic Evil factions, they just prioritized the Law/Chaos split in choosing sides at that time over the Good/Evil. Elementals that had previously been largely Neutral would be influenced depending on who they allied with - if you wound up fighting under Asmodeus and other fiends, you would learn the Evil perspective on Law and be influenced toward becoming Lawful Evil, or if you were more attracted to Chaos you might end up going marauding with demons and learning how to do Evil Chaotically. Same on the Good flip side: elementals who fought with angels would be drawn toward Good as well as law, while those who skirmished alongside free bands of Eladrins would tend to develop a Chaotic Good viewpoint to match their battle-brothers.


Well, that makes sense. Thank you fir explaining more clearly.

----------


## Bohandas

> I may be mistaken, but I distinctly remember Libris Mortis mentioning that undead are in some way funnels to the Negative Plane. What happens inside a ghoul is fundamentally different from what happens inside a lion. Inside a living being, the eaten thing becomes changed into a new state. That doesn't happen inside a feeding undead. Whatever is eaten by it gets funneld into the Negative and eradicated. Every time an undead feeds, it makes the world a little _less._


That's only realky relevant on demiplanes, as the other planes are infinite. And even on demiplanes it only matters if it exceeds the influx from conjuration magic

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

> I used to wrong word; not static, stagnant. I am quite sure that Afro mentioned in one of the earlier threads that sapient undead have a noted tendency to not change much, to be set in their ways. He also mentioned that undead worship is less nourishing for deities and gave the stagnancy of their souls as a reason.


Undead are _spiritually_ stagnant, true.  But anyone considering undeath as a means of eternal existence isn't particularly concerned about their god's opinion on their soul, methinks.  And while undead may get set in their ways after a few centuries, that's not particularly noteworthy when outsiders have relatively fixed natures and venerable elves tend to get pretty curmudgeonly themselves.




> Regarding petitioners, all of them feel the drive to come closer to their planes/powers and fuse with them, but not all of them are in a hurry. They've got eternity.


Indeed, but my point was that a mortal considering their afterlife options isn't necessarily going to care about that or even consider that part a positive at all, and in fact one might actively dislike the idea of merging with a plane and losing their selfhood even if it takes a bazillion years, which provides another motivation to become undead.




> I may be mistaken, but I distinctly remember Libris Mortis mentioning that undead are in some way funnels to the Negative Plane.


That's mentioned as one of five possible theories for the existence of undeath-as-a-state-of-existence, so it's not necessarily true; in fact, it's really just an oblique reference to how some undead in the pre-Planescape cosmology were said to exist on the Prime Material and Negative Material Planes simultaneously (and the bit about possible Positive Energy undead is referencing how mummies used to be Positive Material Plane-powered anti-undead of sorts) and never mentioned again in any 3e material.

But even within that section, it contradicts itself as to how harmful the "drain" is.  It says "More precisely, they believe that undead on the Material Plane are linked to the Negative Energy Plane via a conduit, just as life itself somehow partakes of positive energy," which is the equal-and-opposite-to-a-living-being stance I referenced, and then it says "The very existence of even the weakest undead produces a constant drain on the energies of the Material Plane, which accounts for sensations of cold often attributed to the unliving," which is the funnel-of-negative-energy stance you mentioned...but even then, the drain is basically irrelevant because energy is flowing into the Material Plane from the Positive Energy Plane at the same time energy is flowing out to the Negative Energy Plane and, as Bohandas mentioned, any difference in energy level or flow rates is immaterial (heh) when dealing with infinite planes.

----------


## Bohandas

> Indeed, but my point was that a mortal considering their afterlife options isn't necessarily going to care about that or even consider that part a positive at all, and in fact one might actively dislike the idea of merging with a plane and losing their selfhood even if it takes a bazillion years, which provides another motivation to become undead.


This. Honestly I'm not sure what significant difference there is between that and decomposition. It sounds like the same thing when you think about it. Doesn't it?

EDIT:
Or like being reincarnated as a rock or something like Scegf0d the Ungrateful from the old computer game _Afterlife_

----------


## Bohandas

What happens if a crystal sphere lacks a god for some major concept. No sun god perhaps? Or no god of death>

----------


## afroakuma

> What is the primary source for (seen quite a few times in these threads) piece of lore, namely: the "Guardian of the Dead Gods" is not a god anymore (but still can kick anyone's ass seven ways to Sunday) and doesn't like to be referred as "Anubis" anymore


Bearing in mind that I *despise* being asked to dig up references, and therefore am not likely to indulge another question like this in a hurry, you will find the Guardian of the Dead Gods detailed on pp. 38-39 of A Guide to the Astral Plane.




> Was the dwarven deity Clangeddin Silverbeard always specific to the Forgotten Realms?


As covered by others above, nyet.




> Why aren't there any good and evil elemental deities but there are good and evil elemental lords?


There are plenty of good and evil elemental deities. Pyremius, Kaelthiere, Laerme, Huehueteotl, Girru, Agni, Hastsezini, Surtr, Phaulkon, Hotoru, Qotal, Fei Lieng, Fien Po, Shu, Aerdrie Faenya, Lliendil, Habbakuk, Zeboim, Sebek, Naunet, I got bored and stopped listing.

The thing is, though, that by definition attributing "good" or "evil" (or law or chaos for that matter) to an element brings with it some association as to *why* that element is good or evil, and such deities tend to have their natures and portfolios evolve accordingly. Habbakuk is a good-aligned god of water who is seen as the facilitator of ocean travel and the giver of the sea's bounty, and is worshiped as a marine deity by sailors and fishermen. Zeboim is an evil-aligned water goddess, associated with storms, drowning, and the dark mysteries of the unfathomable depths; she is accordingly propitiated to spare those who must risk her capricious temperament from the worst of her wrath.




> If half-fiends have a chariama bonus why do tieflings have a charisma penalty?


Remember that Charisma doesn't purely measure "attractiveness." A strong sense of self, self-worth, interpersonal magnetism... these are things that individual tieflings may certainly possess, but from birth they are "wrong" in ways that others pick up on, and often will experience difficulties feeling like they belong or are fully welcome in their birth societies, coupled with feelings such as shame, resentment, or fear of persecution. Not every tiefling will have these experiences, of course, but the trend is toward some awkward periods in childhood and adolescence that challenge the tiefling's ability to relate to others without resorting to aggressive methods (remembering that people can be aggressively nice/friendly just as easily as aggressively hostile/belligerent). Similar to half-orcs - a half-orc is stronger, generally taller, and theoretically more intimidating to the average human than another human would be, but the Charisma penalty indicates that when trying to intimidate, they either fail to sell the point (inexperience with interpersonal subtleties and how hard to push) or cross the line (provoking hostility with a naked threat when a veiled implication might have caused hesitation and a willingness to negotiate).




> Is there any reason why becoming a templated undead is not people's preferred afterlife?


I mean, for one, it's *not* an afterlife. You don't get to experience what comes next - and you suffer the consequences of whatever mode of existence you've pursued instead.

Also, and I cannot stress this enough, *the vast overwhelming majority of mortals have no knowledge of the Outer Planes or any of what awaits them beyond death.* That's why it's "belief."




> This. Honestly I'm not sure what significant difference there is between that and decomposition. It sounds like the same thing when you think about it. Doesn't it?


It annoys me that there's a perfect media depiction of why this makes sense and it's a huge spoiler for the series in question. To attempt to address without going there:

In the afterlife, you lose the physiological needs of a living being. Those no longer exist for you. You can choose to eat or drink, but not doing so lacks any consequence for you. You also have no need to concern yourself with shelter - you will not suffer the elements, you're not particularly required to sleep, and in most afterlives you don't have to concern yourself with predators or other risks to your person in a meaningful context. We're working our way up the pyramid of needs pretty fast. Being in the afterlife means you are "where you are belong" and "with those you belong with," which is the next step up, and the final two steps are esteem/accomplishment and self-actualization. The challenge here is that it's hard to have goals which have a real meaning, since you can't do anything that ripples back to the Material Plane.

So what's a soul to strive toward? Well, above his pyramid, Maslow put a sixth category: transcendence, which is the need to find meaning by giving oneself to something beyond oneself - shriven of upkeep-based needs and having moved beyond the state where specific tangible goals motivate you, the next step is wanting to have an impact on others based on their unfulfilled needs.

This might involve becoming an outsider and joining the hierarchy of divine servants, being tasked with purposes by a deity or cause you believe in; or it might involve merging, renewing the thing you believe in with your *specific* beliefs about it, and becoming part of a gestalt that makes those things real and possible. 




> What happens if a crystal sphere lacks a god for some major concept. No sun god perhaps? Or no god of death>


Unless that portfolio originally existed within the divine corpus of that sphere, nothing relevant. If it did, and the god holding it has been destroyed or abdicated their post, there may be supernatural disruptions as the forces involved go undirected, depending on how the local overgod has set up divine responsibilities. In Realmspace, for instance, the gods have explicit responsibilities, and a missing or disrupted deity can play havoc with the concept they represent. Conversely, in Krynnspace, the gods have implicit responsibilities, and the concepts they represent can exist without divine curation.

----------


## enderlord99

If there were a spell that lets you take a chunk of any substance and summon an elemental of it, and someone were to use a Calling spell plus some violence to obtain a chunk of demoinc flesh, then used the hypothetical spell I mentioned to make an "Abyss Elemental" then...

...How would such an elemental look and act?

----------


## Fable Wright

> If there were a spell that lets you take a chunk of any substance and summon an elemental of it, and someone were to use a Calling spell plus some violence to obtain a chunk of demoinc flesh, then used the hypothetical spell I mentioned to make an "Abyss Elemental" then...
> 
> ...How would such an elemental look and act?


It wouldn't. The spell would fail. An [outer plane] elemental is an oxymoron. If _somehow_ the spell worked, despite the fact that this is like trying to use electricity to make a mango's legs twitch like you would a dead frog's, you'd probably wind up summoning some existing Tanar'ri, since it's made up of the same manifested soul energy as the demon you called.

If such a spell _created_ an elemental from the existing matter instead of summoning, _and_ worked despite magic not working that way, which I think you're getting at, it would probably create some variety of Obyrith instead (assuming that using this on a piece of _humanoid_ flesh would create a water elemental). Pure abyss-matter untouched by mortal souls is Obyrith. Enjoy the insanity.

Attempting the same on Devils would get you the scariest cease and desist order in the multiverse.

----------


## Thurbane

Assuming for a moment it was possible, and did work, I'd imagine the result could be something like a Demonically Infused Elemental (Dragon Compendium); or maybe an Elemental Demon (Dragon Compendium), or even a Taint Elemental (HoH)...

----------


## unseenmage

So Pathfinder's Golarion has just as interesting a take on atheism as Faerun imo.

The goddess of the dead there throws atheist souls at the moon/god of ending the universe when he gets to close to drive him away and/or appease him. 


Are there any other popular campaign settings that give atheists every specific very bad end for seemingly no reason?

----------


## Tzardok

> So Pathfinder's Golarion has just as interesting a take on atheism as Faerun imo.
> 
> The goddess of the dead there throws atheist souls at the moon/god of ending the universe when he gets to close to drive him away and/or appease him. 
> 
> 
> Are there any other popular campaign settings that give atheists every specific very bad end for seemingly no reason?


I do not know about "popular", but in Tellene, a third-party setting, the souls of atheists are devoured by a giant sphere-of-annihilation-like phenomenon that grows with every devoured soul, eradicating a bit more of the (finite) space where the divine realms are. Logically, the deities take anyone they can justify in.

----------


## Saint-Just

> So Pathfinder's Golarion has just as interesting a take on atheism as Faerun imo.
> 
> The goddess of the dead there throws atheist souls at the moon/god of ending the universe when he gets to close to drive him away and/or appease him. 
> 
> 
> Are there any other popular campaign settings that give atheists every specific very bad end for seemingly no reason?


Dark Sun :Tongue: 

There are no gods so technically everyone is an atheist (at least in the narrow sense), and souls of the dead try to get away from the world only to be caught in the Gray to be slowly eroded to nothing.

----------


## Eldan

At least one planescape book says that Asmodeus gets all atheists.

----------


## Tzardok

> At least one planescape book says that Asmodeus gets all atheists.


You are screwing with us, right?  :Small Eek:  That goes against the whole "petitioner of a plane" thing...

----------


## Bohandas

> You are screwing with us, right?  That goes against the whole "petitioner of a plane" thing...


I think it was the 1e Guide to Hell, which IIRC had a lot of inconsistencies with other planescape material

EDIT:
And that particular bit also contradicts Forgotten Realms canon now that I think about it.




> There are plenty of good and evil elemental deities. Pyremius, Kaelthiere, Laerme, Huehueteotl, Girru, Agni, Hastsezini, Surtr, Phaulkon, Hotoru, Qotal, Fei Lieng, Fien Po, Shu, Aerdrie Faenya, Lliendil, Habbakuk, Zeboim, Sebek, Naunet, I got bored and stopped listing.


Don't forget Tharizdun (and to a lesser extent Iuz, Zuggtmoy, and Lolth)

----------


## Eldan

I didn't know Guide to Hell was 1E. That was before my time anyway, I got all my Planescape stuff through either Ebay or PDFs.

----------


## Khedrac

> I didn't know Guide to Hell was 1E. That was before my time anyway, I got all my Planescape stuff through either Ebay or PDFs.


That's because it's 2nd Ed.  Planescape didn't exist in 1st Ed, there was a Manual of the Planes, but that was about it.

----------


## Eldan

And according to Wikipedia, it was published in 1999, 5 years after the Planescape campaign setting. 

Not an official PS supplement, though, which I suppose explains the weirdness.

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

Here's the exact quote about Big A and atheists:




> An oft-overlooked piece of planar cosmology is that belief is required to be reborn in the afterlife. That is, a mortal must believe in something to become a petitioner.  In worlds in which the power of the gods is manifested through clerical spells, belief isn't hard to come by.  However, there are always those who reject the divinity of the powers and the existence of an afterlife.  It is thought that the spirits of these unbelievers, lacking the will to continue on, simply cease to exist when the body dies.  This too is a misconception.
> 
> Unbelief is the tool of the Lord of Lies, and those who die believing in nothing are reborn on the ninth layer of Hell regardless of alignment. These unfortunates are the true damned of the universe.  While other petitioners strive to merge with their deities, the unbelievers are consumed by Asmodeus in the depths of Hell.  This painful process takes centuries to complete, during which time the unbelievers maintain full awareness.  They vividly experience the loss of every ounce of their true essence, as Asmodeus slowly destroys all that they were and any hope that they could be again.
> 
> So while the rest the powers feed on belief, the Lord of Lies lives on unbelief. His true agenda is to promote lack of faith, not to fool mortals into embracing evil. The entire machinery of Hell, from the Blood War to the temptation of mortals to the politics of the infernal courts, is nothing but a smokescreen.
> 
> [...]
> 
> The Athar, also known as the Lost and the Defiers, are Asmodeuss favorite group.  They believe that the powers are a bunch of frauds. In their view, the gods are powerful beings, but they are not divine. The Athar believe that everyone has the potential to become that powerful, given the right circumstances, but that might doesnt equal godliness.
> ...


Now, all of this doesn't really fit with the rest of Planescape metaphysics at all, was never mentioned before Guide to Hell and hasn't been mentioned since, and appears in a book that is, as Eldan mentioned, not an official Planescape book.

But the out-of-left-field change makes sense at a metagame level, because Guide to Hell was one of the first few cosmology-focused books published after D&D's Satanic Panic era, so in addition to bringing back "devil" and "demon" as game terms in addition to "baatezu" and "tanar'ri" the writers were directed to deliberately reintroduce setting elements that were more edgy and provocative than were seen in Planescape, and trying to position Asmodeus as _the_ Big Evil of the setting was part of that.

----------


## Dalmosh

> If there were a spell that lets you take a chunk of any substance and summon an elemental of it, and someone were to use a Calling spell plus some violence to obtain a chunk of demoinc flesh, then used the hypothetical spell I mentioned to make an "Abyss Elemental" then...


This was Afro's previous response if you're interested... though using demon flesh is interesting...




> Conjuring an elemental brings a unique being whose inherent nature involves inhabiting and manipulating a body formed from its native element into the Material Plane. You can't conjure the spiritual essence of an Outer Plane because 1) it's not a distinctive being, it's just the anchoring foundation of a place literally made of belief; and 2) you have nothing to host it in. Your best imitation is still a totally illogical and incompatible mess because it lacks the nature of the plane in question. Small wonder that planar golems are so intensely difficult to create.


You could probably create something akin to a Demonflesh Golem (Fiend Folio) to begin with. If you then tried to seperate the animating "spirit" from the body, I think you would fail though, as the golem's sentience is simply an emergent trait of the substance, rather than a spirit in its own right bound to a physical form.

----------


## Silent Alarm

I am in Sigil and I want to be mazed. What is the most efficient way to get Mazed by the Lady without her killing you? Can you simply walk up to here and ask to be Mazed?

----------


## enderlord99

> I am in Sigil and I want to be mazed.


False.


> What is the most efficient way to get Mazed by the Lady without her killing you?


There is no guaranteed, or even vaguely viable, way of getting her to do anything specific.


> Can you simply walk up to here and ask to be Mazed?


You can, physically speaking, walk in a direction that is towards her; you can probably even do so on purpose.  However, if you were doing so in an attempt to get Mazed on purpose (which... why?) you would probably get Flayed before you could ask anything.

----------


## Fable Wright

> I am in Sigil and I want to be mazed. What is the most efficient way to get Mazed by the Lady without her killing you? Can you simply walk up to here and ask to be Mazed?


According to Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, steal a book from her library. She'll Maze you with only a blank book for company.

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## enderlord99

> According to Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, steal a book from her library. She'll Maze you with only a blank book for company.


Was that the guy who managed to gain power over the maze he was trapped in, as well as letting other people in and out, and even giving it Harbinger-Houseesque anti_lady properties, all by writing "I rule this place, not the Lady" and "This place exists in Sigil's place, but it is not Sigil" and several similar things into a book that was magically always accurate?  Or am I thinking of something else?

EDIT:  The thing I'm half-remembering has some connection to Umbril, I think.

----------


## Fable Wright

> Was that the guy who managed to gain power over the maze he was trapped in, as well as letting other people in and out, and even giving it Harbinger-Houseesque anti_lady properties, all by writing "I rule this place, not the Lady" and "This place exists in Sigil's place, but it is not Sigil" and several similar things into a book that was magically always accurate?  Or am I thinking of something else?
> 
> EDIT:  The thing I'm half-remembering has some connection to Umbril, I think.


That is something completely unrelated. 

This is a literal library, that the Lady has an interest in. We don't know if she made it or what, but she personally makes sure that people who mess with the library get comeuppance. One of the better collections of lore in the multiverse, since books come in from everywhere and the Lady makes sure that no Library of Alexandria incidents can occur.

----------


## enderlord99

> That is something completely unrelated. 
> 
> This is a literal library, that the Lady has an interest in. We don't know if she made it or what, but she personally makes sure that people who mess with the library get comeuppance. One of the better collections of lore in the multiverse, since books come in from everywhere and the Lady makes sure that no Library of Alexandria incidents can occur.


Who _was_ I thinking of, then?  Was it the same guy who killed his future self in a ritual and then got trapped in a rock and then was killed within the rock by his past self in a ritual, or was this a different idiot-who-tried-to-conquer-Sigil?

EDIT:  Found it.

----------


## Larbek24

I have some questions about animi and souls.
First of all living, mindless and some undead, mindless creatures have an animus, intelligent creatures have souls (exept elementals and outsiders that technically are souls) and constructs have an animating force (usually an elemental). Is that right or are already some of my basics wrong?
2. Incarnum is a magic substance made up of soul energy but is it possible that Incarnum is created from animi?
3. Plants and oozes are normally mindless and have animi but do intelligent one like treants have souls (and would something like a treant soulmeld be possible)?
4. Do warforged and other intelligent constructs have a real soul or an potentially better animated force (or an animus)?
5. If somebody uses "awaken" on a tree or "awaken vermin" on vermin does he create a new soul for that now sentient being or does he 'upgrade' the animus into a soul?
Edit: 5.5 Does the 'upgraded' animus disappear like a normal animus or is the creature able to go into an afterlife?
6. Do the spells "awaken construct" and "incarnate construct" create a soul or do they change the animated force and what happens to the animated force if it doesn't change especially in the case of "incarnate construct"?

----------


## Bohandas

> I am in Sigil and I want to be mazed. What is the most efficient way to get Mazed by the Lady without her killing you? Can you simply walk up to here and ask to be Mazed?


Being in her direct proximity is dangerous because her shadow has some kind of dangerous mojo in it that causes living things it falls upon to be cut/torn apart. Better to submit a request through her Daubus servitors.

----------


## Saint-Just

> False.There is no guaranteed, or even vaguely viable, way of getting her to do anything specific.You can, physically speaking, walk in a direction that is towards her; you can probably even do so on purpose.  However, if you were doing so in an attempt to get Mazed on purpose (which... why?) you would probably get Flayed before you could ask anything.


Well, you are not Afro so I would dare to ask a question: how do you know what do you know? I agree about "no guaranteed way", but why would you say that one would probably get Flayed for intention to be Mazed? Are you assuming by default that any and all such attempt is somehow attempt to subvert the Lady and therefore she calls shenanigans?

----------


## Tzardok

> Well, you are not Afro so I would dare to ask a question: how do you know what do you know? I agree about "no guaranteed way", but why would you say that one would probably get Flayed for intention to be Mazed? Are you assuming by default that any and all such attempt is somehow attempt to subvert the Lady and therefore she calls shenanigans?


Enderlord has a slight tendency for exaggeration, but he isn't far off. I vaguely remember a story I read somewhere in a Planescape sourcebook (no idea which one) about a guy who wanted to communicate with the Lady. He started with, well, talking at her. No reaction. He escalated. He tried yelling, writing, translation spells, simple telepathy. Then, one day, he appeared with some kind of techno-magical device covering his head. It combined, in some way, telepathy and language magic. He managed to make contact with the Lady. That was when the screaming started.
Today he's still walking Sigil's streets, half-flayed, half-stitched together with his device, babbling unendingly in unknown tongues.

Leave the Lady alone.

----------


## enderlord99

I said "probably" not "definitely" or "inevitably"

----------


## Bohandas

When some of Sigil's factions were forced to merge in order to remain in the city, what became of their strongholds and offices elsewhere?

----------


## Eisfalken

> When some of Sigil's factions were forced to merge in order to remain in the city, what became of their strongholds and offices elsewhere?


The fates of the various factions continued into 3rd edition: most of them decamped elsewhere on the planes, to their other strongholds, which are specifically beyond the power or attention of the Lady of Pain (she may have ultimate cosmic power, but she occupies an itty-bitty living space).

Manual of the Planes (3.0) and the Planar Handbook (3.5) covers most of the new headquarters for the factions, such as they exist after the Faction War.  The Athar were originally said to be hiding at the base of the Spire of the Outlands (which Sigil is at the top of), where even divine power was diminished, but by 3rd edition seem to have decamped to the Astral Plane to observe the dead gods there.  The Doomguard have four fortresses among the inner planes of Air, Fire, Earth, and Negative Energy, where they observe entropy.  The Fated set up shop on Ysgard.  The Mind's Eye (formed from the Believers of the Source and the Sign of the One) are now operating in the Outlands.  The Society of Sensation decamped to Arborea, but they do still apparently operate the Civic Festhall in Sigil.  The Transcendent Order operates out of Elysium.  And the Xaositects end up in Limbo, of course.

Now, it should be mentioned, as of Planar Handbook, it seems as if elements of these factions *do* operate to greater or lesser degree in Sigil... without the displeasure of the Lady of Pain.  No explanation is given whatsoever, and I haven't heard that any was given in any later sources.  If I were permitted a theory on the matter, I could surmise that the Lady simply wanted the factions disabled as social and political powers that were unduly taking control of parts of her city: so long as they have given up attempting trying to "rule" Sigil unilaterally, they are permitted to act on behalf of those who do not even belong to their faction.  This is the only justification I can find that makes sense, given that both Arwyl Swan's Song, current leader of the Sons of Mercy, and Rhys (who is, in theory, still in charge of the Transcendent Order) both are listed as "authority figures" for Sigil in the Planar Handbook.  But it should be noted that neither of these individuals really hold a lot of power: Rhys is simply a member of the city council, of which there are other voices (and votes), and Arwyl probably operates as law-enforcement only at the Council's decree (and, thus, answers directly or otherwise to non-faction members).

Of course, I defer to the superior knowledge of afroakuma and others, as I must confess to having lapsed in my keeping up of D&D lore through 4th edition, and only recently was able to review sections of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, which had some additional lore for a few planar topics.

----------


## Tzardok

I think Bohandas was asking about the event in the long past when the Lady declared that the number of factions in Sigil shall be reduced to fifteen, not the much younger event when the Lady banished the factions.

----------


## enderlord99

> Of course, I defer to the superior knowledge of afroakuma and others, as I must confess to having lapsed in my keeping up of D&D lore through 4th edition, and only recently was able to review sections of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, which had some additional lore for a few planar topics.


Neither 4e nor 5e is considered relevant to this thread.

----------


## Edreyn

I have a question about Pillar of Skuĺls. Doesn't it, in some aspects, break the major laws of the setting? It's on Lawful Evil Baator, but people who go there are betrayers and liers - and those should go to Carceri. Also they do retain literally all memories of every head present. How is this possible lore-wise? Are there other similar places or entities?

----------


## Bohandas

> I think Bohandas was asking about the event in the long past when the Lady declared that the number of factions in Sigil shal be reduced to fifteen, not the much younger event when the Lady banished the factions.


This is correct. Did the mergers have any meaning or effect outside of Sigil?

----------


## enderlord99

> It's on Lawful Evil Baator, but people who go there are betrayers and liers - and those should go to Carceri.


Not always.  It's based on alignment, mostly.

----------


## Eurus

How does Carceri "enforce" its metaphysical themes? I've heard Afro describe it as a bucket-of-crabs mentality, a prison where sheer paranoia and spitefulness are the biggest bars in the wall. I also recall that there's some kind of curse alleged to be on the plane so that even if you escape it you're likely to end up back there again, although I'm not sure of the details or if this is actually true...

I can understand how petitioners would be basically locked into that narrative, because they're petitioners, but Carceri is also used as an actual prison to banish things you don't want to see again, right? Some of the entities stuck there, presumably, aren't even neutral/chaotic evil, or at the very least are practical enough to not be naturally predisposed to self-sabotaging vindictiveness.

So, how does the plane keep its whole vibe going? Does it meddle with the minds of people who are there, or manipulate circumstances subtly to encourage the behaviors it wants? Or is it purely cultural factors, being surrounded by other paranoid and spiteful people tending to rub off on you?

----------


## Tzardok

> How does Carceri "enforce" its metaphysical themes? I've heard Afro describe it as a bucket-of-crabs mentality, a prison where sheer paranoia and spitefulness are the biggest bars in the wall. I also recall that there's some kind of curse alleged to be on the plane so that even if you escape it you're likely to end up back there again, although I'm not sure of the details or if this is actually true...


Curse is a strong word, but it's essentially right: If you ever were in Carceri, you are likely to end up there again. This is subtle, just a manipulation of probability; if you are on the Astral and fleeing something by throwing yourself into the first available color pool, chances are that it goes to Carceri. Things like that. It certainly won't get you out of places with a better hold on you, like the Demiplane of Dread, Athas or the Demiplane of Imprisonment.




> I can understand how petitioners would be basically locked into that narrative, because they're petitioners, but Carceri is also used as an actual prison to banish things you don't want to see again, right? Some of the entities stuck there, presumably, aren't even neutral/chaotic evil, or at the very least are practical enough to not be naturally predisposed to self-sabotaging vindictiveness.


Besides the fact that one-way portals into Carceri are much more common than two-way portals that allow escape, legend holds that people imprisoned in Carceri can only escape if they have become stronger than whoever put them there. Not quite sure how exactly that works.
Also, the gereleth are the self-appointed prison wardens and bully other prisoners into "behaving". Sometimes they are even allowed to leave to hunt down escapees.




> So, how does the plane keep its whole vibe going? Does it meddle with the minds of people who are there, or manipulate circumstances subtly to encourage the behaviors it wants? Or is it purely cultural factors, being surrounded by other paranoid and spiteful people tending to rub off on you?


Mostly the second part, I think.

----------


## Dalmosh

When Petitioners fuse with their Outer Plane, does their actual soulstuff disperse into and infuse the firmament of that plane?

If the Outer Planes are predominantly shaped by the collective belief of living beings, how intrinsic to their structure/integrity is this diffused soulstuff?

Do most non-sentient animal souls and the souls of infants end up in the Outlands by default, or does their lack of belief lead their soulstuff to be "recycled" by the Postive Energy Plane?

Do transcendent Petitioners in a Divine Realm only infuse with that Divine Realm, or to a lesser extent with the Plane as a whole too?  If the former, could a particularly prevalent group of Gods come to alter the shape of an Outer Plane through channeling a disproportionate amount of soulstuff available to the planar fabric?

----------


## Tzardok

> Do most non-sentient animal souls and the souls of infants end up in the Outlands by default, or does their lack of belief lead their soulstuff to be "recycled" by the Postive Energy Plane?


Infants go to Celestia as part of some enigmatic phenomenon. In the same way, the souls of wild animals go to the Beastlands and the ones of domesticated animals to Bytopia.




> Do transcencent Petitioners in a Divine Realm only infuse with that Divine Realm, or to a lesser extent with the Plane as a whole too?  If the former, could a particularly prevalent group of Gods come to alter the shape of an Outer Plane through channeling a disproportionate amount of soulstuff available to the planar fabric?


Petitioners of deities fuse with their deity, not the plane that deity happens to dwell on.

----------


## Dalmosh

"Infants go to Celestia as part of some enigmatic phenomenon. In the same way, the souls of wild animals go to the Beastlands and the ones of domesticated animals to Bytopia."

Seems like a fairly recent hijacking of the default order of things to me.  Guardinals and Archons deciding what's best for those without the capacity to choose is getting into some murky ethical waters, especially since Zaphkiel won't reveal anything about what actually goes on in Chronias.  Do infant orcs go to Chronias too?  What about Mindflayer tadpoles?

Bytopia makes sense for particularly faithful loyal dogs and horses, but that should be an exception rather than a rule.  If you're not inherently aligned, and you're not sentient then you can't really make moral choices in a meaningful way that fits with the nature of the Great Wheel.

----------


## afroakuma

> I am in Sigil and I want to be mazed. What is the most efficient way to get Mazed by the Lady without her killing you? Can you simply walk up to here and ask to be Mazed?


There really is no guaranteed method, as noted - she's notoriously inscrutable about how she chooses to solve problems. It is generally more likely to be mazed for causing disruption among society than by damaging the city or assaulting her personage (including her servants), which is far more often punished by immediate murdering.




> I have some questions about animi and souls.
> First of all living, mindless and some undead, mindless creatures have an animus, intelligent creatures have souls (exept elementals and outsiders that technically are souls) and constructs have an animating force (usually an elemental). Is that right or are already some of my basics wrong?


That's the gist - to possess a life force is to have an animus of positive energy; to be a mindless undead is to have an animus of negative energy.




> 2. Incarnum is a magic substance made up of soul energy but is it possible that Incarnum is created from animi?


Incarnum is made up of the same stuff that makes up positive animi, yes.




> 3. Plants and oozes are normally mindless and have animi but do intelligent one like treants have souls (and would something like a treant soulmeld be possible)?


Intelligent plants have souls, yes. No reason you couldn't have some sort of treant soulmeld in theory.




> 4. Do warforged and other intelligent constructs have a real soul or an potentially better animated force (or an animus)?


Warforged are odd specifically because Eberron treats it as an open question - but since they can be _resurrected_, they have *some* kind of positive energy animating force.




> 5. If somebody uses "awaken" on a tree or "awaken vermin" on vermin does he create a new soul for that now sentient being or does he 'upgrade' the animus into a soul?


The spell _awaken_ uses up some of the caster's own soul energy to help the animus evolve into a developed soul - this is the XP cost. Similar spells such as _awaken object_ (which isn't working with any existing animus, and is using a humanoid's brain as a very loose template) take massively more XP to cast. _Awaken sand_ is much cheaper, and is likely tapping some elemental property to draw forth an animus of a different sort and upgrade it - the resultant being does have the Earth subtype. _Awaken undead_ is a thinner and more fraudulent version of the same idea - you are feeding the undead entity *qualities* of a soul, but the magic is pinning it in place, and a dispel can end that entirely (note the duration is permanent, unlike the instantaneous duration of other awakening effects).




> Edit: 5.5 Does the 'upgraded' animus disappear like a normal animus or is the creature able to go into an afterlife?


It has developed a soul in the conventional sense and can proceed to an afterlife. It should be noted that animals already have souls to begin with - it's only mindless living things that do not.




> 6. Do the spells "awaken construct" and "incarnate construct" create a soul or do they change the animated force and what happens to the animated force if it doesn't change especially in the case of "incarnate construct"?


_Incarnate construct_ is a similar idea to _awaken construct_ - you are using powerful magic in tandem with the template from a living being and your own soul energy to convey a living soul into the construct. 




> When some of Sigil's factions were forced to merge in order to remain in the city, what became of their strongholds and offices elsewhere?


Many of them remained intact as sects - these can be found scattered around the Great Wheel, including the Ring-Givers, Incantifiers, and Mathematicians among others. Some, of course, became abandoned.




> I have a question about Pillar of Skuĺls. Doesn't it, in some aspects, break the major laws of the setting? It's on Lawful Evil Baator, but people who go there are betrayers and liers - and those should go to Carceri. Also they do retain literally all memories of every head present. How is this possible lore-wise? Are there other similar places or entities?


Liars come in many stripes - Carceri collects particular kinds of liars and traitors, and they need to belong to that plane. The Pillar of Skulls is also in part "curated" by the baatezu from "trophies" they have collected in the Blood War, so it's not entirely composed of "locals."




> How does Carceri "enforce" its metaphysical themes? I've heard Afro describe it as a bucket-of-crabs mentality, a prison where sheer paranoia and spitefulness are the biggest bars in the wall. I also recall that there's some kind of curse alleged to be on the plane so that even if you escape it you're likely to end up back there again, although I'm not sure of the details or if this is actually true...


Not a curse, so much as the nasty fact that once you've spent time in Carceri's environment of selfish backstabbing paranoia, it tends to leave its mark - and it has an unfortunate way of getting under your skin. Nothing magical *compels* you to come back.




> I can understand how petitioners would be basically locked into that narrative, because they're petitioners, but Carceri is also used as an actual prison to banish things you don't want to see again, right? Some of the entities stuck there, presumably, aren't even neutral/chaotic evil, or at the very least are practical enough to not be naturally predisposed to self-sabotaging vindictiveness.
> 
> So, how does the plane keep its whole vibe going? Does it meddle with the minds of people who are there, or manipulate circumstances subtly to encourage the behaviors it wants? Or is it purely cultural factors, being surrounded by other paranoid and spiteful people tending to rub off on you?


The power of Carceri-as-prison is that in order to escape, you have to be stronger than whatever put you there to begin with. This does not need to mean *literal* strength, but it does mean you need to in some way demonstrate the capability to remove yourself from the plane - not just the technical capacity ("I could if I wanted to") but the actual means, motive, and desire. That's a hard combination for some of its most powerful prisoners, such as the Titans, whose sense of entitlement and nursing of grudges, combined with resentment toward mortals for following the Olympian pantheon, means they are constantly limited in going forth from their bondage by the sheer spite they feel ("why *should* I go to Olympus? I'd just have to deal with Zeus looking smug, and anyway mortals don't deserve my aid...")

For others, who didn't necessarily belong there, the challenge may be more physical in nature - certainly the gehreleths don't *want* people leaving. Stay long enough, and you will eventually fit right in - Carceri is six flavors of misery and all of them looooove company.




> When Petitioners fuse with their Outer Plane, does their actual soulstuff disperse into and infuse the firmament of that plane?


Yep.




> If the Outer Planes are predominantly shaped by the collective belief of living beings, how intrinsic to their structure/integrity is this diffused soulstuff?


In the long term, essential.




> Do most non-sentient animal souls and the souls of infants end up in the Outlands by default, or does their lack of belief lead their soulstuff to be "recycled" by the Postive Energy Plane?


Infants are taken up into Chronias. Animals go to the Beastlands, or (depending on the local pantheon) are cycled through a reincarnation and given a chance to be something new and different.




> Do transcendent Petitioners in a Divine Realm only infuse with that Divine Realm, or to a lesser extent with the Plane as a whole too?  If the former, could a particularly prevalent group of Gods come to alter the shape of an Outer Plane through channeling a disproportionate amount of soulstuff available to the planar fabric?


Transcendent petitioners in a divine realm merge with their deity, not the realm, so no.




> Seems like a fairly recent hijacking of the default order of things to me.  Guardinals and Archons deciding what's best for those without the capacity to choose is getting into some murky ethical waters, especially since Zaphkiel won't reveal anything about what actually goes on in Chronias.  Do infant orcs go to Chronias too?  What about Mindflayer tadpoles?


Any soul which has not yet had the chance to take on definition and form astral links to any kind of principle on its own, including infant orcs (but not mindflayer tadpoles, which are nonsapient in that stage of life and have an animus, not a soul), goes to Chronias. This is not Zaphkiel's decision; rather, it is his responsibility and has the concurrence of the pantheons by and large, who no more wish to see the mass exploitation of the undetermined post-birth than pre-birth (see also the Ban of the Unborn). Chronias, whatever else it is, is the most secure sanctum of Law (they have struck a covenant that they will not exploit the souls, and therefore will not) and Good (they will ensure no harm or exploitation of the souls by other parties, because it is the right thing to do) available.

----------


## aj77

So mindless undead have a negative energy animus rather than a soul.

Do non mindless undead always have a soul, and is it always the soul of the creature it was in life, or is it possible that they have a random evil soul summoned into them, or just an advanced animus?
Obviously, something like a lich has the original creature's soul, but does a vampire?  A ghoul?

Are incorporeal undead by definition formed from the original creature's soul, or is it possible for them to be formed as an imprint from pure negative energy (or ambient soul stuff, etc)?

----------


## Tzardok

> So mindless undead have a negative energy animus rather than a soul.
> 
> Do non mindless undead always have a soul, and is it always the soul of the creature it was in life, or is it possible that they have a random evil soul summoned into them, or just an advanced animus?
> Obviously, something like a lich has the original creature's soul, but does a vampire?  A ghoul?
> 
> Are incorporeal undead by definition formed from the original creature's soul, or is it possible for them to be formed as an imprint from pure negative energy (or ambient soul stuff, etc)?


I'm 90% sure that at least one type of intelligent undead has an animus instead of a soul: the devourer. Being soulless and driven to eat them is their shtick.

----------


## Dalmosh

> This is not Zaphkiel's decision; rather, it is his responsibility and has the concurrence of the pantheons by and large, who no more wish to see the mass exploitation of the undetermined post-birth than pre-birth


Thanks, that sums things up pretty concisely.

What draws nonsapient animal souls towards a mildly good aligned plane?  Do behaviourally deviant animals end up in Pandemonium or Carceri instead (e.g. a lion with a tendency to infanticide that is pushed out of its pride, a captive animal in a cage that becomes aggressively demented)?

Are infant souls likely to evolve into something else based upon their environment, or do they lack the sense of self required to do so?

What would be some of the biggest philosophical contentions/objections that the Court of Stars would have against the Celestial Hebdomad?  Presumably something about tacit support for Baatezu tyranny through the Pact Primeval?  

How much do the Hebdomad likely remember of their mortal lives?  

Which member of the Hebdomad is generally the best known, and most commonly interacted with by non-archons?

How would Morwel do things differently if she needed to take on Zaphkiel's responsibility, and was given a proportional amount of support from the Gods to do so?  How about Asmodeus's duty to hold back the demons?

----------


## Caelestion

In 1st Edition, the Beastlands _were_ the Happy Hunting Grounds.  That is probably why animals are drawn there.

----------


## unseenmage

Is there a list somewhere of all the grand libraries out there in the planes?

Is it only the heavens that have useful libraries or are there hellish tomes hoarded in some infernal layer somewhere?

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## Tzardok

> What draws nonsapient animal souls towards a mildly good aligned plane?  Do behaviourally deviant animals end up in Pandemonium or Carceri instead (e.g. a lion with a tendency to infanticide that is pushed out of its pride, a captive animal in a cage that becomes aggressively demented)?


I think it's the sympathetic connection between those planes and animals. The Beastlands and to a lesser extent Bytopia are nature affine (especially with an animal flavour) in a way the other planes aren't, and this animalness draws souls with animalness to them, just like the Chaotic Goodness of Arborea draws souls with the right amount of Chaotic Goodness to it.




> How much do the Hebdomad likely remember of their mortal lives?


Not much, I would bet. Petitioners generally lose their memories of their lives, and the transformation into an exemplar doesn't help. Not everyone can be like Orcus and retain enough memory to be usefull; otherwise Orcus wouldn't be special.




> Is it only the heavens that have useful libraries or are there hellish tomes hoarded in some infernal layer somewhere?


The Tower Arcane in Gehenna is the archive for all the knowledge the yugoloth have collected, curated by the arcanoloth.

Mephistopheles has a wizard college in his capitol; I would assume that it has a library on infernal magic.

There are one or two demon lords with a focus on books or lore, I think. Afro fleshed one of them out here.

I also vaguely remember something about Graz'zt having a remarkable public (and remarkably public) library.

I don't remember any others, but there are a bunch of deities of magic (Velsharoon, Melifleur, Wee Jas, Hekate) or knowledge (Aflux) on the lower planes, of which all, some or none may have libraries as part of their divine realms.

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## Tiktakkat

Maybe it is not so much something about Bytopia and the Beastlands that draws animal souls to them, but something about Gehenna and Carceri that repels animal souls from them, sending them to the diametrically opposing planes.

The jungles of Colothys, where liars are deceived by nature until consumed by it, is quite a stark contrast to Bytopia, where honest work tames savage nature.

Gehenna is near pure violence, where the ground itself "hunts" anything living, a very profound opposite to the Beastlands, where nature invites all life to thrive, even though some are predators.

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## afroakuma

> So mindless undead have a negative energy animus rather than a soul.
> 
> Do non mindless undead always have a soul


Nope. Some non-mindless undead are animi that come into existence mimicking memories left inside the shell of the deceased, or emotions.

Also liches technically do and do not have souls - the soul is, of course, not *in* the lich.




> and is it always the soul of the creature it was in life


See above.




> Are incorporeal undead by definition formed from the original creature's soul, or is it possible for them to be formed as an imprint from pure negative energy (or ambient soul stuff, etc)?


Some forms of incorporeal undead are animi that emerge from negative energy coalescing around an imprint of evil in a place.




> What draws nonsapient animal souls towards a mildly good aligned plane?


The alignment of the Beastlands has little relevance to the animals; rather, it is the plane that most naturally hosts animal spirits because it allows them to each behave according to their nature (chaotic good) and accords a place to each, regardless of what they may be (neutral good).




> Do behaviourally deviant animals end up in Pandemonium or Carceri instead (e.g. a lion with a tendency to infanticide that is pushed out of its pride, a captive animal in a cage that becomes aggressively demented)?


Nope. Thankfully, as petitioners in their own right, the harsh edges of their memories in life wear away, giving them a chance to act free of the worst torments they suffered in life.




> Are infant souls likely to evolve into something else based upon their environment, or do they lack the sense of self required to do so?


Left alone? They would lack the sense of self to become something on their own.




> What would be some of the biggest philosophical contentions/objections that the Court of Stars would have against the Celestial Hebdomad?  Presumably something about tacit support for Baatezu tyranny through the Pact Primeval?


Oh, there are no end to them; they are better at keeping it _sotto voce_, but a few of the big ones would include...

 The Court of Stars believes in inspiration; the Hebdomad claims to celebrate that same virtue, but their version is much more akin to evangelism, "a firm guiding hand," or the occasional kick in the seat of the pants. The Court of Stars feels that the Hebdomad's narrow view will result in an incomplete vision doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over while insisting the fault is with those who would consider alternatives; the Hebdomad feels the Court of Stars risks giving the wrong path at the wrong time, which could result in all sorts of mess.

 The Court of Stars has no love for demonkind, but they view the corrupting influence of devils and their cults to be a black gauntlet poised to crush Prime worlds in its inflexible grip, and wish to invest more efforts against Baator. The Hebdomad in turn despises the devils, but holds that demons' reckless urge for defilement and destruction risk the very pillars of existence, which makes them by far the more pressing threat.

 The Court of Stars fears that direct intervention on the Prime is counterproductive, and enjoins eladrins to avoid revealing themselves while providing aid, out of concern that their influence will create dependence, overreliance, or an unwillingness to take independent choices. The Hebdomad agree that direct intervention by archons should be employed sparingly, but in turn they motivate their agents (paladins, etc.) to take a very active hand in proclaiming the nature of virtue and ensuring that mortals understand their specific view of it, lest they get the wrong ideas and stray from the most proper road to goodness.




> How much do the Hebdomad likely remember of their mortal lives?


Most of it, but at this point each of them is so old that it's much like remembering your life at the age of three - hazy, irrelevant, and devoid of emotional attachments that were not reinforced for many cycles afterward.




> Which member of the Hebdomad is generally the best known, and most commonly interacted with by non-archons?


Barachiel, as the chief messenger and warden of the lowest Heaven.




> How would Morwel do things differently if she needed to take on Zaphkiel's responsibility, and was given a proportional amount of support from the Gods to do so?


His responsibility to the souls of the stillborn? She'd fail. Her instinct would always be to give choices and opportunities, which would result in the potential, however well-intended, for misuse and exploitation of those souls. Her nature is that of a muse, not a warden. She would also never ever want that job.




> How about Asmodeus's duty to hold back the demons?


Not technically his duty in the first place so far as how things have happened to slot in; the archons would be doing it if the devils weren't. The eladrins also help out in their own way already, including making war on them directly with incursions into the Abyss. 




> Is there a list somewhere of all the grand libraries out there in the planes?


"All," no, I do not believe. There are a great many - several gods of knowledge have one, of course, as well as unique locations such as Timaresh, or Gresil's library in the depths of the Abyss.




> Is it only the heavens that have useful libraries or are there hellish tomes hoarded in some infernal layer somewhere?


Plenty of fiends maintain collections of particularly dire tomes; the arcanaloths are quite proud of their archives, for obvious reasons, and several archdevils keep at least a few classy books, if not a whole library.

----------


## The Insanity

What lore is there on beings that have one soul shared by two (or more) bodies? I know of the dvati race introduced in a Dragon (or Dungeon) Mag., but I don't know how canon they are.

----------


## Bohandas

> What lore is there on beings that have one soul shared by two (or more) bodies? I know of the dvati race introduced in a Dragon (or Dungeon) Mag., but I don't know how canon they are.


There's also the gods and the planar lords, who all have various aspects and avatars running around. 

If you look at the Modrons in a certain light they're essentially all aspects of Primus

There's also Kyuss, and other lesser worm-that-walks creatures.

And swarm-shifter undead (Libris Mortis pg.123-127)

----------


## Bartmanhomer

Are there any iconic demigods exist? If so, what are their names?  :Confused:

----------


## Khedrac

> Are there any iconic demigods exist? If so, what are their names?


One problem is this question is that "iconic" tends to mean different things to different people, however Zagyg is pretty iconic with D&D and has Demigod rank.

I would also consider Hercules an answer - while less iconic within D&D, he is still iconic and his D&D portrayal is as a Demigod.

----------


## Eurus

Another Carceri question, sorry. I'm trying to flesh out the "native fauna" and encounters, and I'm wondering what I can feasibly get away with. Obviously there's gereleths, and probably a fair scattering of yugoloths/baatezu/tanar'ri, and the smattering of creatures from elsewhere that get stuck there. I'm guessing creatures native to other lower planes like Night Hags, Barghests, Nightmares, and whatever a Yeth Hound is might also be found there in some amounts?

-Do elementals ever end up on the outer planes? I've been led to believe that the answer is no, but I wanted to check. No earth elementals popping up on Colothys, or anything like that? Or... mephits, I guess? I honestly don't know what a mephit is, they seem to be outsiders in 3.5 and elementals in 5e.

-The fiendish template is... let's say, _widely applicable_, but doesn't have much guidance for where it's appropriate. Are there a bunch of fiendish animals/fey/oozes/giants stomping around down there?

----------


## afroakuma

> What lore is there on beings that have one soul shared by two (or more) bodies? I know of the dvati race introduced in a Dragon (or Dungeon) Mag., but I don't know how canon they are.


Dvati are canonical, yes. As noted above, they would be the most distinct mortal execution of the idea of a multiply-embodied soul. I'm not sure what specifics you are looking for outside of that?




> Are there any iconic demigods exist? If so, what are their names?


I do not understand this question. As Khedrac indicates, there are very very many demigods. By what standard are we to consider "iconic?"




> Another Carceri question, sorry.


Bah, I love Carceri.




> I'm trying to flesh out the "native fauna" and encounters, and I'm wondering what I can feasibly get away with. Obviously there's gereleths, and probably a fair scattering of yugoloths/baatezu/tanar'ri, and the smattering of creatures from elsewhere that get stuck there. I'm guessing creatures native to other lower planes like Night Hags, Barghests, Nightmares, and whatever a Yeth Hound is might also be found there in some amounts?


Plenty of truly unpleasant things stalk Carceri; the specific fauna will vary by layer, but in general, you'd find  viper trees on Othrys (and some on Cathrys), vaath on Cathrys, gautiere, utukku and wraithworms on Minethys, terlen on Porphatys, and things like abrians, bloodthorn, bonespears, and vorr scattered across most layers. Vargouilles, varrangoins, and shrieking terrors may be found here. Odopi, powerful enough to be a serious menace, also prowl the spheres. Hordlings may show up, too. Yugoloths, of course; tanar'ri; the rare baatezu. Night hags are unlikely but possible; barghests not very probable; nightmares reasonably so.




> -Do elementals ever end up on the outer planes? I've been led to believe that the answer is no, but I wanted to check. No earth elementals popping up on Colothys, or anything like that?


In general, no, though it's always possible that the plane manifests some form of itself as an "elemental" for the purpose of causing misery.




> Or... mephits, I guess? I honestly don't know what a mephit is, they seem to be outsiders in 3.5 and elementals in 5e.


Mephits are something like elemental imps; little pests who are outsiders native to the elemental planes. They are brought to the Lower Planes in droves to serve as messengers (or, frankly, the message in and of themselves) for evil's hoi polloi. 




> -The fiendish template is... let's say, _widely applicable_, but doesn't have much guidance for where it's appropriate. Are there a bunch of fiendish animals/fey/oozes/giants stomping around down there?


Othrys is a swamp, so fiendish things of a swampy nature would be most appropriate; there are also trolls there. Cathrys is a jungle and a savannah both, with expected attendant fauna. Grolantor, patron of hill giants, keeps his realm there, so fiendish hill giants are plausible. Minethys is a wicked and bitter desert, and fomorian giants may appear here, as their patron Karontor keeps his realm on this layer. Colothys is a land of sharp mountains and deep canyons, and other than Othrys is the place most likely to host tanar'ri. Here drow can also be found, followers of Vhaeraun. Porphatys is a shallow ocean, and may host nasty mockeries of Prime aquatic life, while Agathys is a frozen dead orb. Undead, of course, are always a possibility.

To add a bit of color to fiendish creatures, you may wish to substitute out their smite good ability for a 1/day spell-like ability of suitable nature - for instance: _corrosive grasp_SC, _wall of smoke_SC, _incite_SC, _backbiter_SC, _babau slime_SC, _baleful transposition_SC, _phantom foe_SC, _delusions of grandeur_SC, _miser's envy_SC, _resinous tar_CM, _incendiary slime_CM, _acid arrow_, _suggestion_, _lesser confusion_, et cetera. You may also want to swap fire resistance for acid resistance - most of Carceri's native environments are at least mildly acidic, and many lethally so.

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## Bartmanhomer

> One problem is this question is that "iconic" tends to mean different things to different people, however Zagyg is pretty iconic with D&D and has Demigod rank.
> 
> I would also consider Hercules an answer - while less iconic within D&D, he is still iconic and his D&D portrayal is as a Demigod.


What I meant by iconic is a demigod who's very popular and famous.

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## Khedrac

> What I meant by iconic is a demigod who's very popular and famous.


Popular and famous to whom?

Zagyg is certainly famous on Oerth (part of his ascension to godhood was capturing  demigods and successfully imprisoning them for a period of time).
Herculs is certainly famous on earth, but I don't know any D&D world outside of Planescape where he is likely to have a following.

As for popular, this can have different implications:
If you mean "popular, as in a lot of people follow (worship) them" then there probably aren't any - that sort of thing tends to lead to promotion from demigod status to a higher rank. Recently ascended people with a lot of followers also go here, e.g. Al'Akbar on Oerth ("recent" is a relative term and means different things to different people like gods).
If you would accept "popular - a lot of people like them, but don't follow them" then if there is a demigod of wine/partying in a world they might fit this category.
(I thought that the D&D Olympian pantheon might have one of these, but their god of wine is Dionysyus who is an intermediate god; on the other hand Nike, the demigoddess of victory might count.)

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## Bartmanhomer

> Popular and famous to whom?
> 
> Zagyg is certainly famous on Oerth (part of his ascension to godhood was capturing  demigods and successfully imprisoning them for a period of time).
> Herculs is certainly famous on earth, but I don't know any D&D world outside of Planescape where he is likely to have a following.
> 
> As for popular, this can have different implications:
> If you mean "popular, as in a lot of people follow (worship) them" then there probably aren't any - that sort of thing tends to lead to promotion from demigod status to a higher rank. Recently ascended people with a lot of followers also go here, e.g. Al'Akbar on Oerth ("recent" is a relative term and means different things to different people like gods).
> If you would accept "popular - a lot of people like them, but don't follow them" then if there is a demigod of wine/partying in a world they might fit this category.
> (I thought that the D&D Olympian pantheon might have one of these, but their god of wine is Dionysyus who is an intermediate god; on the other hand Nike, the demigoddess of victory might count.)


Depends on each plane of the famous and popular Demigods: Celestia, Eysium, Arborea, Mechanus, The Outlands, Limbo, Baator, Gehenna and the Abyss. But now I got my answer from what you're telling me.

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## Bohandas

> Are there any iconic demigods exist? If so, what are their names?


I'd say that Zagyg is the most iconic

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## Thurbane

> I'd say that Zagyg is the most iconic


Iuz is pretty infamous, too.

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## Khedrac

> But now I got my answer from what you're telling me.


 Glad to hear it :)

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## Eurus

> Bah, I love Carceri.
> 
> *snip*


Thanks! That's extremely helpful.  :Small Big Grin:

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## Bartmanhomer

> Iuz is pretty infamous, too.


What is Iuz infamous for?  :Smile:

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## Thurbane

> What is Iuz infamous for?


He's one of the more well known bad guys in Greyhawk, and is the son of Grazz't and Iggwilv. He had his own 2E module (Iuz the Evil), and was a major antagonist in The Temple of Elemental Evil saga. He is known to be one of St Cuthbert's major enemies.

Some more reading here: https://greyhawk.fandom.com/wiki/Iuz...mall%20kingdom.

*Spoiler: From the LG Deities PDF*
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> Description: luz (EYE-ooze) is thought to be the cambion (half-fiend) son of the demon lord Graz'zt and the powerful wizard Igglwilv. Appearing on Oerth as a shriveled old man or as a huge, demonic-looking being, luz has many fiendish allies and impersonates other gods to fool mortals and increase his territory. He remains a great threat to the balance despite setbacks since the Greyhawk Wars. His symbol is a grinning skull, and he holds a particular hatred for Zagyg, Vecna, St. Cuthbert, and Greyhawk. "The weak must be exploited, tortured, and stripped of hope. The strong must be constantly wary of betrayal by their underlings. Pain is power, and inflicting pain demonstrates power best. Crush those beneath you. luz must be obeyed, and those who defy him will know absolute pain." luz's clerics inflict cruelty and torture upon all who oppose them. luz tolerates no less than fanaticism and complete obedience. His clerics constantly try to outdo each other in their acts of cruelty and evil. They show their superiority over all other beings by hunting for trophies; rare finds such as unicorns or paladins are truly prized. The clerics create spells and magic items of terrible power and evil nature, and travel the world to commit acts of evil and search out luz's enemies, luz is served directly by the Boneheart - two tiers (Greater and Lesser) of six advisers each (clerics and wizards), and by the Boneshadow, six spies and evildoers who roam the world. Iuz builds grand temples to himself in his nation-state, but his churches elsewhere are small and secret. He maintains important sites for mass rituals, sacrifices, and other ill deeds in forbidding wilderness terrain far from the eyes of good.

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## Khedrac

> What is Iuz infamous for?


He is also one of the few gods physically present on the Prime Plane where he rules the country that bears his name on Oerth.
In the Greyhawk Wars series of events (2nd Ed) the area more-or-less under his control expanded somewhat.

In canon no one refers to him as "Iuz", instead he is "the old one" or "the wicked one" as saying his name runs the risk of attracting his attention* (he's not exactly "popular" even in his own country).

*Spoiler: * Living Greyhawk example*
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Apparently there was one big event where lots of tables playing at different levels at a convention all simultaneously received missions inside Dorakaa (his capitol) and everything proceeded very nervously until a player on one table let the word "Iuz" pass his lips.  At that point it became a race to get out for every table present...

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## The Insanity

> I'm not sure what specifics you are looking for outside of that?


I was hoping there would be some examples other than dvati about how such a thing works on a metaphysical (I think I'm using the right word) level in the D&D world. I want to homebrew a race or template that's multiple bodies (I'll start with 2 for now) with one soul, but dvati don't work for me because they were made with mechanical balance in mind so they don't feel like a proper representation of the concept, at least to me. My homebrew version is intended to faithfully convert the fluff into mechanics, with balance being the last concern.

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## Bohandas

> I was hoping there would be some examples other than dvati about how such a thing works on a metaphysical (I think I'm using the right word) level in the D&D world. I want to homebrew a race or template that's multiple bodies (I'll start with 2 for now) with one soul, but dvati don't work for me because they were made with mechanical balance in mind so they don't feel like a proper representation of the concept, at least to me. My homebrew version is intended to faithfully convert the fluff into mechanics, with balance being the last concern.


I think hiveminds and divine aspects are probably the best things to look at here

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## afroakuma

> But now I got my answer from what you're telling me.


I still have no sweet clue what the question actually was.




> I was hoping there would be some examples other than dvati about how such a thing works on a metaphysical (I think I'm using the right word) level in the D&D world. I want to homebrew a race or template that's multiple bodies (I'll start with 2 for now) with one soul, but dvati don't work for me because they were made with mechanical balance in mind so they don't feel like a proper representation of the concept, at least to me.


What is it about the dvati that does not feel like a proper representation of a being with one soul and two bodies?

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## Bartmanhomer

> I still have no sweet clue what the question actually was.
> 
> 
> 
> What is it about the dvati that does not feel like a proper representation of a being with one soul and two bodies?


Never mind. It's not even important anymore.

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## Bohandas

> What is it about the dvati that does not feel like a proper representation of a being with one soul and two bodies?


For one thing, the rules for what affects only one vs. what affects both seem arbitrary

For another thing, the text is contradictory on some pretty fundamental things. For example one paragraph states "Dvati twins share one mind" but the very next paragraph states that a pair of Dvati do not share preceptions and must take a full round action to discern their counterpart's mental state. Another pair of contradictory statememts first states "Both twins must simultaneously take the actions required to cast a spell, (although only one must supply material components)" but then states "A lone dvati can cast spells if his twin takes no actions while he casts".

Basically, the article itself can't seem to decide what the link between a pair of dvati is or means.

EDIT:
As an aside, here's some more specific dvati questions

If one dvati in a pair dies and then someone casts _regenerate_ on the other one that's still alive, does it bring the first one back? 

What about _raise dead_ with one body dead and the other alive? Does it even do anything? And if it does does it cost a level?

If a dvati pair dies and you have just one of the bodies can you use _raise dead_ on it, or are they considered incomplete unless you have both?

And how do they interact with spawn-creating undead?

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## enderlord99

> I still have no sweet clue what the question actually was.


That's normal with Bartmanhomer, TBH.

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## afroakuma

> For another thing, the text is contradictory on some pretty fundamental things. For example one paragraph states "Dvati twins share one mind" but the very next paragraph states that a pair of Dvati do not share preceptions and must take a full round action to discern their counterpart's mental state.


Indeed - mind-affecting abilities strike at the psychic bond that bridges the two bodies and allows them to communicate telepathically. What happens to the mind within one body also influences the other body, because the mind itself is bridged into both bodies; conversely, since it is but one mind, it does not need to save twice against the same effect. Compare it to feeling around your own leg with your hand to try and locate where something is hurting you - your leg knows something is hurting in that vicinity, and has notified your mind, but while the general sense is enough to prompt you to act with your hand, it still needs to poke around to find the spot - you might also use your eyes to locate it. If I gave you an electric shock, meanwhile, your leg wouldn't stay calm while the rest of you gets zapped.




> Another pair of contradictory statememts first states "Both twins must simultaneously take the actions required to cast a spell, (although only one must supply material components)" but then states "A lone dvati can cast spells if his twin takes no actions while he casts".


This is due to the terminology spillover. "Take the actions" is meant to indicate that the capacity to perform combat actions is "taken up" on the part of both twins, i.e. even though normally each could take a full-round action, when spellcasting there is no such split allocation. The twin, as noted, doesn't actually need to be doing anything for the purpose of spellcasting; rather, the twin has to be *not* doing anything that does not involve participating in the caster's activity. So, you could have the two of them doing the motions of the casting, and one resultant spell; or you could have one standing stock-still while the other casts on her own. It does not matter; what does matter is that any purposeful elective action on the part of the non-casting twin is not happening - no attacks, no translocation, no communicatory speech.




> As an aside, here's some more specific dvati questions
> 
> If one dvati in a pair dies and then someone casts _regenerate_ on the other one that's still alive, does it bring the first one back?


No. Each body lives or dies separately and does not constitute a part of the other body.




> What about _raise dead_ with one body dead and the other alive? Does it even do anything? And if it does does it cost a level?


This is addressed in the book, actually - _raise dead_ will restore the dead twin, costing the joint soul a level (affecting the raised twin and the living twin both).




> If a dvati pair dies and you have just one of the bodies can you use _raise dead_ on it, or are they considered incomplete unless you have both?


Each body is _raised_ individually. If both are dead and you only _raise_ one of them, the one you bring back will begin suffering the penalties of being an incomplete twin. 




> And how do they interact with spawn-creating undead?


The body that dies becomes undead, with all the attendant horrific consequences. If both bodies die as a result of the spawning effect, both rise as spawn. I would expect that dvati find the prospect of getting undead-spawned quite horrifying, as the living one will share a soul with a thing that is bound in a state of unlife and torment. The undead one is probably no better off; while the ability damage will not destroy it, if it possesses its living memory it is quite likely that the undead dvati will seek ritual self-destruction rather than exist in that maddening state.

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## Forevaxp

Ive been on a Draeden/Planes/misc. spree for the past week or so, going through all of these threads  :Small Big Grin: 

Where do the Draedens currently reside? Not including the one in the Abyss and the ones in the Para-elemental Plane of Ice. Is it the Far Realm (or the absence thereof)? 

Is Tharzidun a Draeden? He has plenty of Draeden-ish things in his portfolio, and wasnt he imprisoned in either the Abyss or the Demiplane of Imprisonment?

Thanks in advance!

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## Bartmanhomer

I do have a few question, Does Moradin have a wife and children? If so what are their names?  :Smile:

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## afroakuma

> Ive been on a Draeden/Planes/misc. spree for the past week or so, going through all of these threads 
> 
> Where do the Draedens currently reside? Not including the one in the Abyss and the ones in the Para-elemental Plane of Ice. Is it the Far Realm (or the absence thereof)?


Even draedens have no use for the Far Realm. Other than the ones you mentioned, we do not know for certain... there is a demiplane known as Draedenden which is believed to contain larval draedens, though of course there has been very little exploration due to how ridiculously dangerous it is. The voids of Carceri are a likely place, as is the void of Gehenna. Draedens may sleep beneath Ocanthus, or the depths of Agathion, or some terrible reach of Limbo. Other para-elemental planes may also host draedens.




> Is Tharzidun a Draeden?


Nyet.




> wasnt he imprisoned in either the Abyss or the Demiplane of Imprisonment?


The Demiplane of Imprisonment, yes.




> I do have a few question, Does Moradin have a wife and children? If so what are their names?


Aye. Berronar Truesilver is the wife of Moradin. His status as the father of other dwarven deities is a bit nebulous, with dwarven cultures having differing beliefs about which, if any, of the others are his children.

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## Tzardok

You know, Larbek's questions on souls and animi are missing one:

What happens when an outsider or elemental becomes undead? Are they animated by an animus, do they "inherit" the donor's non-dual nature and just don't need a soul, or what?

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## Dalmosh

What would happen to a captive illithid fed only on cow brains?  

How, in general terms, is an Angel's outlook/personality/philosophy different to a human's?

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## Tzardok

> What would happen to a captive illithid fed only on cow brains?


The answer is implied by what Lords of Madness tells us about mind flayer biology.

Technically, a mind flayer is a parasite driving around the body of the ceremorphed humanoid. Mind flayers eat brains because they don't produce certain hormones and enzymes the host body still needs, but the parasite replacing the brain can't provide, and because they absorb psionic energy from them.

A cow most likely won't produce the exact bodily chemicals the humanoid body needs, and I don't think a cow's psionic potential is very high (but hey, what do I know? If camels make good mathematicians, maybe cows are great wilders...). All in all, it's better than nothing in an emergency, but in the long term the illithid will die.

Another little question on my part: We already know that the Divine Mind class is dreck that flies in the face of everything we know about psionics. Is the Ardent's fluff equally bad or is there something of worth there. My intuition says the first thing, but I would like a second opinion.

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## Thurbane

Don't know if this is the best place to ask this, but...

Did D&D invent the differentiation between Demons and Devils? In most folklore, they are interchangeable. I'm assuming D&D came up with the whole LE vs. CE type deal for these creatures?

How far back in D&D do Demons and Devils go? I know as far back as AD&D 1E, but earlier than that? And the Blood War was introduced in 2E, from memory?

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## Dalmosh

> Did D&D invent the differentiation between Demons and Devils?


Pretty sure the idea goes back to Milton's Paradise Lost, in which an Abyss of Chaos floats around Hell, in which live strange and ancient evil entities including Pale Night that predate the fall of the rebel angels. D&D probably first codified such entities as "Demons" though.

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## PairO'Dice Lost

> How far back in D&D do Demons and Devils go? I know as far back as AD&D 1E, but earlier than that?


Demons first showed up in OD&D Supplement III: Eldritch Wizardry, consisting of Type I through Type VI demons, Orcus, and Demogorgon.  Devils didn't show up in statted form until 1e as far as I recall, but they were mentioned as being LE fiends in Gygax's article on alignment in Strategic Review #6, published three years and change before the 1e MM (February 1976 for the former, August 1979 for the latter).




> And the Blood War was introduced in 2E, from memory?


Yep, in the Monstrous Compendium: Outer Planes Appendix.

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## afroakuma

> You know, Larbek's questions on souls and animi are missing one:
> 
> What happens when an outsider or elemental becomes undead?


For the most part, they do not; your conventional methods of undeath do not work on outsiders - I should point out that even those few templates which mention that they apply to "any corporeal creature" should not function on outsiders, and _Savage Species_ told us that outsider and undead are mutually exclusive creature types.

Now, that being said, there are certain very specialized types of undead which arise from outsiders or elementals; the lichfiend, for instance, manipulates the traditional lich ritual to attain body-soul separation by migrating the soul to a phylactery and replacing it in the body with an animus, just as a normal lich does. This is a hard thing for a fiend to do, but it is possible; of course, it comes with attendant vulnerabilities; while the soul and the body are no longer one unit, the soul is now in a comparatively much weaker container, and progression of the soul in the way that fiends normally could (promotion) is stalled forever. Needless to say, this is not something a lot of fiends pursue. Some other forms of undeath may be possible with the corpse of a fiend (assuming it doesn't go through death throes that destroy it), which would involve an animus badly mimicking part of the soul's existence to reanimate the body. These are shoddy and dangerous things - see the visages, for instance, which wholly lack the characteristics of the original fiend but remain driven by its evil nature.

Elementals are more interesting, at least to my mind; they may appear as necromentals, where the elemental nature is essentially hijacked by an animus that pilots it about with no more intellect than a skeleton or zombie would have, or they may take the form of some specific kind of elemental undead, such as a dessicator. In both cases, the negative energy is mimicking something of the binding elemental nature that normally animates an elemental, but in the latter case the original elemental animus is trapped and tainted by the negative energy and unable to disperse, creating a tortured entity that just wants to be a true elemental being again but is incapable of restoring itself and as a result lashes out at its fellows. 




> What would happen to a captive illithid fed only on cow brains?


Psionic starvation, cognitive failure, nerve damage, seizures, eventual death. The minimum Intelligence score required for an illithid to get everything it needs from a brain is 3. If some method is devised to supply them with the psychic energies needed for proper nutrition, the cow brain would handle the physiological nutritional requirements sufficiently.




> How, in general terms, is an Angel's outlook/personality/philosophy different to a human's?


The two are... pretty vastly different. The most general way I could position it is that to a human, one's own needs are always fairly primary; even when one is considering the needs of others, it may tie into a personal need. For angels, their own needs are always secondary. To put it more glibly, you know how you feel sick, tired, and hungry? Well, angels are sick of cruelty, tired of needless suffering, and hungry for justice.




> Another little question on my part: We already know that the Divine Mind class is dreck that flies in the face of everything we know about psionics. Is the Ardent's fluff equally bad or is there something of worth there. My intuition says the first thing, but I would like a second opinion.


At a glance, seems kind of weak, but the general notion that they are making a psionic connection through the Astral Plane to some sort of major belief about the multiverse isn't terribly off base from what we know about belief and the Outer Planes. I think the book is going a bit overblown with all the "fundamental" and "transcendent" nonsense though.

Terrible book.  :Small Sigh: 




> Don't know if this is the best place to ask this, but...
> 
> Did D&D invent the differentiation between Demons and Devils? In most folklore, they are interchangeable. I'm assuming D&D came up with the whole LE vs. CE type deal for these creatures?


Given the topicality, I'm sure you can appreciate there are things from *a certain book* that I am not supposed to talk about on the forums. I will simply say that in *a certain book*, there were terms translated in Greek that referred to particular beings. *A later book starring Virgil* echoed this with the native torture-dispensers and monsters of Hell being "demons" and *some people of a formerly feathery persuasion* being of the other kind.




> How far back in D&D do Demons and Devils go? I know as far back as AD&D 1E, but earlier than that?


Demons originated in OD&D. Asmodeus & friends showed up in AD&D in the Monster Manual.




> And the Blood War was introduced in 2E, from memory?


Correct.

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## Laughing Dog

While I remember from Fiendish Codex II that if you somehow happen to have two opposing alignment auras of equal measure coming from an entity of some form (ex. Pact Primeval) it causes a _confusion_ effect; is there anything that would happen if you somehow had (an entity with) opposing alignment auras of non-equal measure?  Or would the stronger of the two auras just cancel the other out?

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## Bohandas

> While I remember from Fiendish Codex II that if you somehow happen to have two opposing alignment auras of equal measure coming from an entity of some form (ex. Pact Primeval) it causes a _confusion_ effect; is there anything that would happen if you somehow had opposing alignment auras of non-equal measure?  Or would the stronger of the two auras just cancel the other out?


the Ordered Chaos feat allows you to effectively be lawful and chaotic at the same time without any side-effects

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## Edreyn

Hello again, thanks for answering my previous questions, and now I have some new:

1) Are there any deities that reside\visit for a long time on a Outer Plane that is completely hostile to him\her? I, of course, mean opposite alignments, I know that Lloth and Tanar'ri hate each other. I also know that Loki can be found on two planes, but in both he is still feeling at home. What I mean, are there\have there ever been good deities residing permanently or at least for a centuries long time on Evil planes, in some kind of war camp, for the sake of trying to help those suffering unjustly (like who accidentally walked through the wrong portal) or wage a holy war against local evil deities or just evil outsiders? Or the other way around with evil deities living a long time on good Plane to torment\kidnap\whatever.

2) Are there any deities residing on Baator? Other planes usually have a few paragraphs describing Kingdoms of specific deities, but I don't remember this about Baator. Many LE deities live on Gehenna, but again, this isn't Baator.

3) I saw you discussed Dvati here. Do they make one or two petitioners upon death?

4) Have there been any cases of someone asking the Lady for something, not selfish, but for Sigil sake, and getting a reply? For example asking Her to protect everyone from something really horrid that could endanger the whole Sigil. I guess dabbuses can, but what of others?

5) How do people actually feel change from turning from a mortal to petitioner? Do they feel it at all? Is it something like "Goodbye, my loving great grandchildren, be good boys and girls... huh? Who am I? Where I am? Oh dear, what a beautiful mountain is over there!". Or the existing mind shuts down to a mathematical null, then a completely new entity appears?

6) Except Duke Darkwood and Nameless One, have there been any successful escapes from Mazes? If there were, what happened to those people after that? Can\would a Lady maze someone twice?

7) Have there been cases of some clueless berks trying to harm the Lady with any kind of weapon? I know that all of them failed, but curious if there are some interesting stories about attempts.

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## Tzardok

> Hello again, thanks for answering my previous questions, and now I have some new:
> 
> 1) Are there any deities that reside\visit for a long a long time on a Outer Plane that is completely hostile to him\her? I, of course, mean opposite alignments, I know that Lloth and Tanar'ri hate each other. I also know that Loki can be found on two planes, but in both he is still feeling at home. What I mean, are there\have there ever been good deities residing permanently or at least for a centuries long time on Evil planes, in some kind of war camp, for the sake of trying to help those suffering unjustly (like who accidentally walked through the wrong portal) or wage a holy war against local evil deities or just evil outsiders? Or the other way around with evil deities living a long time on good Plane to torment\kidnap\whatever.


A few examples that may or may not fulfill your criteria: Gruumsh is a chaotic god on lawful Archeron. He's there because the war is there. Ares (chaotic evil) and Athena (lawful good) of the Olympian pantheon live with most of the rest of them in Olympia on Arborea (chaotic good). Thrym (chaotic evil) and Sutr (lawful evil) dwell on Ysgard, because of their war with the Nordish pantheon.



> 2) Are there any deities residing on Baator? Other planes usually have a few paragraphs describing Kingdoms of specific deities, but I don't remember this about Baator. Many LE deities live on Gehenna, but again, this isn't Baator.


The most well known deities living in Baator are:  1. Hell: Tiamat, goddess of evil dragons, and Kurtulmak, god of kobolds, 3. Hell: Hekate, Olympian goddess of magic (who has another realm in Hades), and Piscaethces, goddess of aboleths, 5. Hell: Sekolah, god of sahuagin, and Set, Pharaonic god of evil.

Also, on the 2. Hell there is supposed to be a "Street of Gods", where the realms of minor or failing lawful evil deites lie thightly packed, and the Maztican pantheon maintains one of its underworlds on the 6. Hell.




> 3) I saw you discussed Dvati here. Do they make one or two petitioners upon death?


If I have to guess? One soul, one petitioner.




> 4) Have there been any cases of someone asking the Lady for something, not selfish, but for Sigil sake, and getting a reply? For example asking Her to protect everyone from something really horrid that could endanger the whole Sigil. I guess dabbuses can, but what of others?


Communication with the Lady usually involves the dabus as intermediates. If you truly know about a danger to all of Sigil that she didn't already know before, it would be easier and most likely faster to just inform a dabus.

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## Eldan

> 6) Except Duke Darkwood and Nameless One, have there been any successful escapes from Mazes? If there were, what happened to those people after that? Can\would a Lady maze someone twice?


In _Faces of Sigil_ (my favourite RPG book, bar none, really) there's a Gith named... uh... (checks book) Djhek'nlarr who sells maps of the Lady's mazes. The Harmonium has made it known that 

a) These maps are all FAKE. Totally FAKE. Don't buy them.
b) Possessing one of these maps is a capital crime. 

RUmour has it that she has some kind of ability that lets her track people when they are mazed.She tricks people into getting mazed, then tracks them down on the ethereal plane, enters their mazes and maps them out. (There's a few theories offered about how she does it. She seems to pickpocket people's personal possessions. Some also claim that for some reason, mazed people leave behind a silver cord, like astral travellers, that only she can see. And that she can follow her own silver cord back out of the mazes to Sigil.) 

This being Planescape, it's not actually confirmed if she can do it. Also unknown why the Lady hasn't killed her.


That said, as far as I know, the Lady seems to see Mazing more as a warning than as a capital punishment. If you get out and sin again, you just die.

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## afroakuma

> While I remember from Fiendish Codex II that if you somehow happen to have two opposing alignment auras of equal measure coming from an entity of some form (ex. Pact Primeval) it causes a _confusion_ effect; is there anything that would happen if you somehow had (an entity with) opposing alignment auras of non-equal measure?  Or would the stronger of the two auras just cancel the other out?


The stronger would prevail.




> 1) Are there any deities that reside\visit for a long time on a Outer Plane that is completely hostile to him\her? I, of course, mean opposite alignments, I know that Lloth and Tanar'ri hate each other. I also know that Loki can be found on two planes, but in both he is still feeling at home. What I mean, are there\have there ever been good deities residing permanently or at least for a centuries long time on Evil planes, in some kind of war camp, for the sake of trying to help those suffering unjustly (like who accidentally walked through the wrong portal) or wage a holy war against local evil deities or just evil outsiders? Or the other way around with evil deities living a long time on good Plane to torment\kidnap\whatever.


By your definition, no. There are good-aligned outsiders doing that (eladrins fighting a hopeless battle in the Abyss to protect a small community of eladrin children trapped there by Pale Night). For a god to go fighting other gods is generally referred to as suicide, and they do not like doing so in an open fashion. Generally, gods going off to do things themselves is bad juju.




> 2) Are there any deities residing on Baator?


Oh yes, quite a lot of them.

*Avernus*
 Bargrivyek, goblin deity of cooperation
 Kurtulmak, chief deity of the kobolds
 Takhisis, Krynnish deity of evil
 Tiamat, draconic deity of chromatic dragons
*Dis*
 Druaga, Babylonian deity of fiend summoning
*Minauros*
 Hecate, Greek goddess of magic 
*Phlegethos*
 Inanna, Sumerian deity of love and war
*Stygia*
 Kriesha, Cerilian deity of cold
 Sekolah, chief deity of the sahuagin
 Set, Egyptian deity of storms and the desert

Those are some of the more notable ones, but of course there are others. By and large, the gods do not establish realms below the fifth hell, though the Maztican deities set up a shared realm on Maladomini.




> 3) I saw you discussed Dvati here. Do they make one or two petitioners upon death?


One petitioner that manifests as two bodies.




> 4) Have there been any cases of someone asking the Lady for something, not selfish, but for Sigil sake, and getting a reply? For example asking Her to protect everyone from something really horrid that could endanger the whole Sigil. I guess dabbuses can, but what of others?


The Lady only communicates through the dabus. She is perfectly capable of understanding others, but that is how she expresses her will. In turn, as any direct exercise of her will tends to be... shall we say, immediate and horribly violent, asking her for something would still involve a dabus executing the actual request should she feel like honoring it.

So essentially, apart from the PCs asking for aid in _Die Vecna Die_, no, and even then there were dabus on hand to sort things out.




> 5) How do people actually feel change from turning from a mortal to petitioner? Do they feel it at all? Is it something like "Goodbye, my loving great grandchildren, be good boys and girls... huh? Who am I? Where I am? Oh dear, what a beautiful mountain is over there!". Or the existing mind shuts down to a mathematical null, then a completely new entity appears?


We do not get a great deal of information about the transitional experience, but essentially a petitioner is the person they were in life, only their conscious memories of life are a pleasant hazy background to their current state of existence - you can remind them of events, people, etc. and they will recognize what you are talking about and even respond fairly appropriately, but a petitioner does not spend their first moments feeling the pang of loss. Now, if they went to a Lower Plane, their first few moments (which might also be their last few moments) may certainly be spent experiencing negative emotions for *all new* reasons...




> 6) Except Duke Darkwood and Nameless One, have there been any successful escapes from Mazes? If there were, what happened to those people after that? Can\would a Lady maze someone twice?


See the response from Eldan. It is not a common thing, and most who have been mazed would have the sense not to return to Sigil if they ever got free. The Lady *could* maze someone twice, but generally if someone were to have been mazed, escaped the maze, and then decided the most clever thing to do was to return to her city and cross her a *second* time, I doubt she could be swayed to see any reason to let someone so transcendentally stupid continue to draw breath. Then again, you do never know what might amuse her.




> 7) Have there been cases of some clueless berks trying to harm the Lady with any kind of weapon? I know that all of them failed, but curious if there are some interesting stories about attempts.


None recorded in any meaningful detail. People tried. People died. It is *not* an interesting topic.

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## Bohandas

> In _Faces of Sigil_ (my favourite RPG book, bar none, really) there's a Gith named... uh... (checks book) Djhek'nlarr who sells maps of the Lady's mazes. The Harmonium has made it known that 
> 
> a) These maps are all FAKE. Totally FAKE. Don't buy them.
> b) Possessing one of these maps is a capital crime. 
> 
> RUmour has it that she has some kind of ability that lets her track people when they are mazed.She tricks people into getting mazed, then tracks them down on the ethereal plane, enters their mazes and maps them out. (There's a few theories offered about how she does it. She seems to pickpocket people's personal possessions. Some also claim that for some reason, mazed people leave behind a silver cord, like astral travellers, that only she can see. And that she can follow her own silver cord back out of the mazes to Sigil.) 
> 
> This being Planescape, it's not actually confirmed if she can do it. Also unknown why the Lady hasn't killed her.


Presumably they are indeed fake and just make the mazes harder to get out of

----------


## Eldan

Not what her statblock seems to indicate.

----------


## Edreyn

Hello, again, everyone.
I apologize for not replying earlier. This thread is very interesting to read, and I do feel I need to say thanks for every answer I get here. So, doing it now. Many thanks for answering me!

Some comments about your answers:




> A few examples that may or may not fulfill your criteria: Gruumsh is a chaotic god on lawful Archeron. He's there because the war is there. Ares (chaotic evil) and Athena (lawful good) of the Olympian pantheon live with most of the rest of them in Olympia on Arborea (chaotic good). Thrym (chaotic evil) and Sutr (lawful evil) dwell on Ysgard, because of their war with the Nordish pantheon.





> By your definition, no. There are good-aligned outsiders doing that (eladrins fighting a hopeless battle in the Abyss to protect a small community of eladrin children trapped there by Pale Night). For a god to go fighting other gods is generally referred to as suicide, and they do not like doing so in an open fashion. Generally, gods going off to do things themselves is bad juju.


Afro's answer is more precise. I did mean deities living in completely antagonistic place, while being a part of pantheon isn't really such. And Gruumsh is a god of war, so he still fits Acheron.

For Baator, I see now that it's actually a popular place for evil deities. Didn't think so.

About the mazes - so no some specific stories about who and how managed to escape from the Maze?

And some new questions:

1) There are some both canon and fan-made theories about how the Multiverse came to life. Are there any in-game\canon\fan predictions or prophecies how it might end? Like our world scientist predict the "heat death of the Universe". And I mean that Multiverse will be destroyed completely, and not captured by Baatezu or something similar.

2) Is there any reason to believe that there is something even more larger then Multiverse? Like, let's call it Metaverse or Protoverse, that has a number of Multiverses in it.

3) Has it ever been discussed, in-game or out of it, that there might be even more Outer planes? Outer-outer-planes, for example a place where the outsiders that are killed on their own plane go to.

4) As I been rereading about Asmodeus and Pact Primeval, another thought came to me. Do deities actually answer to anyone? Yes, there are overgods, like Ao, but this isn't obviously the case.
Asmodeus tricked the gods of Law when he twisted the Pact to his own benefit. As one of the characters in Torment says, "This isn't Justice (or Law in our case) but the mockery of it".
Asmodeus directly mocked deities of Law, he perverted the agreement they had with him. Why they tolerated it? He was unjust, this is obvious. Their only punishment was to cast him down to Baator.
As I understand, they don't have to answer to some higher power, like absolute manifestation of pure Law, or an over-over-over-god. Why they simply didn't tear him apart for such a mockery? Why didn't strip him of power? Why didn't shove the Pact up to his nose? They don't need to answer to anyone, and he turned the spirit of the agreement to a vile mockery. Why they allowed him to get away with it?

Later, when a hierarchy of baatezu was formed, twisting agreements in a most dirty way became their way of life. But why on earth, Lawful Good or even Lawful Neutral entities tolerated this? Unlike devils, they do want the spirit, and not letter of agreement to be kept.

5) Again about Asmodeus. Before later editions he wan't a god. But he did have a full control on Baator. He once even changed the nature of an entire layer, in a seconds turning it from an endless slope to inside-a-body layout. He, obviously, was very powerful always. He has power to alter his plane, and for comparison Tanar'ri lords can't do that. He can grant clerical spells. He can destroy or unmake any of his subjects at any moment, at will. So, what makes him actually different from a "normal" deities?

----------


## Tzardok

> 1) There are some both canon and fan-made theories about how the Multiverse came to life. Are there any in-game\canon\fan predictions or prophecies how it might end? Like our world scientist predict the "heat death of the Universe". And I mean that Multiverse will be destroyed completely, and not captured by Baatezu or something similar.


We know that there is an end to the multiverse, as that's what the mind flayers were fleeing from when they traveled into the past. The Doomguard also believe that reality's time is measured (even if they can't agree on the when) and are sure that a better one will be created after the old one perishes. As to how it will likely happen: Do you remember the War between Dragon and Draeden? When the Draeden surrendered, existence was allowed to come to be. But they are still sleeping, and one day the Draeden will return and finish their war against everything that exists.




> 2) Is there any reason to believe that there is something even more larger then Multiverse? Like, let's call it Metaverse or Protoverse, that has a number of Multiverses in it.


There are a bunch of multiverses floating around in the void Afro calls the Vast Medium. The easiest (read: horrible difficult and dangerous, but halfway consistent) way to go from cosmology to cosmology are the deepest reaches of the Shadow.




> 3) Has it ever been discussed, in-game or out of it, that there might be even more Outer planes? Outer-outer-planes, for example a place where the outsiders that are killed on their own plane go to.


Outsiders do not have a soul seperate from their body that could go anywhere. Unless the outsider recorporates, the way fiends killed outside their homeplane do, their essence is simply absorbed by their homeplane (or, more rarely, the plane they died on).
There _is_ a group of fan-made outer planes called the cordant planes; a second smaller circle of eight planes between the Outlands and the sixteen other outer planes. These planes are supposed to symbolize Neutrality with a tendency to another alignment, just like Arcadia, for example, is Law with tendency to Good. 




> 4) As I been rereading about Asmodeus and Pact Primeval, another thought came to me. Do deities actually answer to anyone? Yes, there are overgods, like Ao, but this isn't obviously the case.
> Asmodeus tricked the gods of Law when he twisted the Pact to his own benefit. As one of the characters in Torment says, "This isn't Justice (or Law in our case) but the mockery of it".
> Asmodeus directly mocked deities of Law, he perverted the agreement they had with him. Why they tolerated it? He was unjust, this is obvious. Their only punishment was to cast him down to Baator.
> As I understand, they don't have to answer to some higher power, like absolute manifestation of pure Law, or an over-over-over-god. Why they simply didn't tear him apart for such a mockery? Why didn't strip him of power? Why didn't shove the Pact up to his nose? They don't need to answer to anyone, and he turned the spirit of the agreement to a vile mockery. Why they allowed him to get away with it?
> 
> Later, when a hierarchy of baatezu was formed, twisting agreements in a most dirty way became their way of life. But why on earth, Lawful Good or even Lawful Neutral entities tolerated this? Unlike devils, they do want the spirit, and not letter of agreement to be kept.


First, the story is most likely not true, at least not in the details. Yes, the Pact exists, but no one knows what exactly it says or who were the signatories. It is quite unlikely that relatively young human deities like Heironeous or Cuthbert had a part in it.
Second, you miss the point about being lawful and honorable. Lawful means that you stick to your promises. You keep your oaths. How many knights and paladins swore to defend the innocent, even if it killed them, and then proceded to die in the defense of the weak? This is the flipside to that. They do not need a higher Law to police them, to force obeyence on them. They do that on their own. Because keeping promises is _the right thing to do_, even if the promise was stupid.
Yes, Asmodeus has perverted and twisted the Pact. But he hasn't broken it. He's still fulfilling his parts of the terms, whatever they may be. And that means the Pact is sacrosanct.




> 5) Again about Asmodeus. Before later editions he wan't a god. But he did have a full control on Baator. He once even changed the nature of an entire layer, in a seconds turning it from an endless slope to inside-a-body layout. He, obviously, was very powerful always. He has power to alter his plane, and for comparison Tanar'ri lords can't do that. He can grant clerical spells. He can destroy or unmake any of his subjects at any moment, at will. So, what makes him actually different from a "normal" deities?


Demon Princes _are_ able to fully control and reshape the layers they control, just like Asmodeus. They are even better at it then deities, because a deity's divine realm is always finite, and most abyssal layers are infinite in size. They just can't control the whole of the Abyss, because the Abyss is chaotic and par definitionem shattered into many disparate factions, while Asmodeus, as lawful tyrant of the Hells, is granted power over all Hells. 
Furthermore demon lords, other Lords of the Nine, the Celestial Hebdomad are able to grant celerical spells, just like Asmodeus can. This is something deities are better at than planar lords, and especially weaker lords often are restricted in the amount of divine magic they can grant, on account of just not having enough oomph.
Raising and demoting subjects is another thing that Asmodeus has in common with other planar lords, and none of them can truly do it "at will", as it is exhausting.
Summa summarum, next to nothing Asmodeus can do is truly unique or unusual amongst planar lords, it's just that the power that in the Abyss is divided amongst hundreds of demon lords is in the Hells concentrated in Asmodeus' hands, simply on account of the Hells' lawful nature. Obviously that means that Primus' power is even more concentrated, as unlike Asmodeus he doesn't have (or need to have, he isn't evil after all) scheming subordinates that get their own slice of the pie.

----------


## Edreyn

> Outsiders do not have a soul seperate from their body that could go anywhere. Unless the outsider recorporates, the way fiends killed outside their homeplane do, their essence is simply absorbed by their homeplane (or, more rarely, the plane they died on).
> There is a group of fan-made outer planes called the cordant planes; a second smaller circle of eight planes between the Outlands and the sixteen other outer planes. These planes are supposed to symbolize Neutrality with a tendency to another alignment, just like Arcadia, for example, is Law with tendency to Good.


I know about those, and that's not what I meant. I meant afterlife worlds for outsiders. So, no such a thing?




> Second, you miss the point about being lawful and honorable. Lawful means that you stick to your promises. You keep your oaths. How many knights and paladins swore to defend the innocent, even if it killed them, and then proceded to die in the defense of the weak?


I absolutely can understand this argument, however I think this isn't similar case at all. What happened with Asmodeus and Law gods is more like a situation where the paladin found out that the old man he swore to protect is actually a maniac who kidnaps babies, skins them alive then eats them and consumes their souls. Should a paladin really stick to his oath in this case? I'd say not - the prime oath of being lawful globally outweighs any secondary oaths.




> Demon Princes are able to fully control and reshape the layers they control, just like Asmodeus. They are even better at it then deities, because a deity's divine realm is always finite, and most abyssal layers are inifinite in size. They just can't control the whole of the Abyss, because the Abyss is chaotic and par definitionem shattered into many disparate factions, while Asmodeus, as lawful tyrant of the Hells, is granted power over all Hells.
> Furthermore demon lords, other Lords of the Nine, the Celestial Hebdomad are able to grant celerical spells, just like Asmodeus can. This is something deities are better at than planar lords, and especially weaker lords often are restricted in the amount of divine magic they can grant, on account of just not having enough oomph.
> Raising and demoting subjects is another thing that Asmodeus has in common with other planar lords, and none of them can truly do it "at will", as it is exhausting.
> Summa summarum, nothing Asmodeus can do is truly unique or unusual amongst planar lords, it's just that the power that in the Abyss is divided amongst hundreds of demon lords is in the Hells concentrated in Asmodeus' hands, simply on account of the Hells' lawful nature. Obviously that means that Primus' power is even more concentrated, as unlike Asmodeus he doesn't have (or need to have, he isn't evil after all) scheming subordinates that get their own slice of the pie.


So, Asmodeus isn't more powerful then other similar creatures, but he simply abuses this power much more? Interesting, this is a good answer.

----------


## Tzardok

> I know about those, and that's not what I meant. I meant afterlife worlds for outsiders. So, no such a thing?


Nope. Sorry.




> I absolutely can understand this argument, however I think this isn't similar case at all. What happened with Asmodeus and Law gods is more like a situation where the paladin found out that the old man he swore to protect is actually a maniac who kidnaps babies, skins them alive then eats them and consumes their souls. Should a paladin really stick to his oath in this case? I'd say not - the prime oath of being lawful globally outweighs any secondary oaths.


The Paladin in your example would have to choose between doing something chaotic and allowing an evil to be perpetrated. Both could cause him to change alignment. He would more likely do some rules-lawyering and try to mitigate the damage, for example by imprisoning the murderer somewhere safe and trying to redeem him.
Whoever the Pact's signatories are, the Lawful Neutral ones won't care that Asmodeus perveted its spirit, as the Lawful Neutral stance can be summarized as "There is no spirit of the law. There is only the letter." And the Lawful Good ones try to curtail Asodeus' excesses, just like the paladin in the example. Lawful Evil isn't the only side that can engange in rules-lawyering.

I have a feeling you still underestimate the importance Law puts on honor. Understandable, as our society puts less emphysis on it than it did a thousand years ago. Let me give you an example for the mindset incarnations of Law operate under:

Do you know the story of Gawain and the Green Knight? It's one of the legends around King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. The story goes that one New Year's Eve the Knights were celebrating and had already drunk a lot, when a strange knight in green entered. He mocked the king and the knights, accusing them of cowardice. Finally he offered them a bet: one of them would do his best strike against the green knight, and one year later that one would go to the green knight and allow him to return the strike. Enraged, Sir Gawain accepted and beheaded the Green Knight.

The Green Knight picked up his head, reminded Gawain of his promise, and left.

The next parts of the story are less important for this, so I will skip them. Just know that after a few adventures searching for the Green Knight, Gawain found him, kneeled down, and allowed him to strike at his neck. And if the Green Knight hadn't shown him mercy, Gawain would be _dead_. For no gain at all. He had important duties. He had sworn to protect the nation at his king's side. Surely the older and broader oath would be more important than a foolish promise done while being roaring drunk?

No. It's not. To the Lawful, _every_ promise is sacred. Even Lawful Evil does not break oaths. It may try to argue on why what they do is what was promised and not what you thought was promised, it may weasel its way through loopholes, it may come for revenge afterwards, but if pinned down, it does as promised. And that's just lawful people. Imagine how much more this is in effect for beings made of Law.

----------


## Edreyn

> I have a feeling you still underestimate the importance Law puts on honor. Understandable, as our society puts less emphysis on it than it did a thousand years ago. Let me give you an example for the mindset incarnations of Law operate under:
> 
> Do you know the story of Gawain and the Green Knight?
> ...


We got an interesting discussion, hope we both enjoy it!
Now, I didn't know this story before. But yes, I understand what it is about.
A promise is a promise. In majority of cases I do try to keep mine.
As my own example I want to say about the book named The Knights of the Cross, by Sienkiewicz.
I really didn't like how easily protagonist gives vows (before the Lord!) then asks a priest to "cancel" them if he no longer wants to obey them.

But again, I see the difference between your example and the case with Asmodeus. From what I understand, the said Green Knight wasn't guilty in anything harsh. If he would be terrorizing Gawain or Arthur's subjects, or any other innocents, would it still be more honorable to die, rather then follow the oath to protect innocents against evil, even if you owe this evil something?

And, with Pact Primeval, the lawful gods actually handed him countless innocent (yet) on a silver plate.




> No. It's not. To the Lawful, every promise is sacred. Even Lawful Evil does not break oaths. It may try to argue on why what they do is what was promised and not what you thought was promised, it may weasel its way through loopholes, it may come for revenge afterwards, but if pinned down, it does as promised. And that's just lawful people. Imagine how much more this is in effect for being made of Law.


I want to give a second example, which is said to be a real story. To avoid politics, I won't say where exactly it happened, just the story.

A student in one famous university once decided to "troll" his mentors a little. He checked the old books and found out, that centuries ago, there was a rule, that during the exam each student must get a plate of a cold beef and a mug of ale. He checked if the law was cancelled and found out that officially it was never cancelled. And he demanded this beef and ale on exams. Then he showed the said law in a book to shocked professors. And demanded that either he receives what's due, or he should get a free bonus to his grade. Professors tried to argue saying that the law is old, absolete and irrelevant, but he didn't care. They said then, that ordering from a restaurant is expensive, and also that alcohol is forbidden in this university, but the student insisted. In the end, in front of the audience of all other students, they barely convinced him to accept a meal from Macdonalds with a bottle of Cola. Student enjoyed how he mocked all the respected professors.

Next day (or in a few days) he was summoned to university trial. And was kicked outright. Why? Because, by the not-officially-cancelled law he had to *bring the sword to the exam*!

Now, that's how one should deal when someone is mocking the law. But the deities Asmodeus tricked didn't do anything of this sort.

----------


## Tzardok

> And, with Pact Primeval, the lawful gods actually handed him countless innocent (yet) on a silver plate.


No, they didn't. That's the whole point of it (presumably. Don't forget, we don't know what it says). Asmodeus only has leave to take the damned. The loophole is that devils convince people to stop be innocent and start be damned. And this is where Good fights him: In the souls of the Prime.




> Now, that's how one should deal when someone is mocking the law. But the deities Asmodeus tricked didn't do anything of this sort.


Isn't that what they _do?_ "Oh sure, the Pact doesn't keep you from corrupting people into damnation, but it doesn't keep my agents from killing your corruptors too." How many preachers are there, extolling virtuus living and warning of damnation? How many heroes root out devil cults and corrupting baatezu? A whole lot more than there are devil's agents active and successful on the Prime, that you can believe me.

----------


## Edreyn

> Isn't that what they do? "Oh sure, the Pact doesn't keep you from corrupting people into damnation, but it doesn't keep my agents from killing your corruptros too." How many preachers are there, extolling virtuus living and warning of damnation? How many heroes root out devil cults and corrupting baatezu? A whole lot more than there are devil's agents active and successful on the Prime, that you can believe me.


Yeah, I guess that's the closest thing to my example of what they can do. But even then, the one who is guilty of perverting the law remains unpunished - being cast down to Baator isn't exactly punishment for one such as him. That's how Law plays against itself.

Now, I am NOT against honor and keeping word. I myself hate both to break my own promises, or when someone breaks theirs. I am against twisting promises. This is unlawful act, much more unlawful then refusing to comply with it.

----------


## enderlord99

Twisting a promise isn't Chaotic.  It may be Evil, but that's not a problem for Asmodeus (and, more importantly, *is* for most of those he allegedly tricked.)

----------


## Fable Wright

> Now, I am NOT against honor and keeping word. I myself hate both to break my own promises, or when someone breaks theirs. I am against twisting promises. This is unlawful act, much more unlawful then refusing to comply with it.


Incorrect. You view it as an _immoral_ or _unconscionable_ act. Both of which are valid. It is _not_ unlawful, or else EULAs to scalp people for data and bank contracts with extraordinarily evil fine print would be illegal.

Which they aren't, at least where I live.  :Small Annoyed:

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

> 1) There are some both canon and fan-made theories about how the Multiverse came to life. Are there any in-game\canon\fan predictions or prophecies how it might end? Like our world scientist predict the "heat death of the Universe". And I mean that Multiverse will be destroyed completely, and not captured by Baatezu or something similar.





> We know that there is an end to the multiverse, as that's what the mind flayers were fleeing from when they traveled into the past. The Doomguard also believe that reality's time is measured (even if they can't agree on the when) and are sure that a better one will be created after the old one perishes. As to how it will likely happen: Do you remember the War between Dragon and Draeden? When the Draeden surrendered, existence was allowed to come to be. But they are still sleeping, and one day the Draeden will return and finish their war against everything that exists.


Eh, there's not really a solid canonical basis to believe that the multiverse has a definite end.  The Doomguard believe time is finite, but the various Factions believe a lot of things, many of which are unprovable or simply incorrect.  The draeden may one day wake, but it's not like they're on a particular timetable; they may be sleeping forever, or the dragons may find/have found a way to prevent them from waking, or they might be waiting to "wake" until all the gods kill themselves off and if that never happens they'll never act, or they might all suddenly die of the draeden equivalent of heart attacks, there's really no way to know where they're concerned.

As for the illithids, they weren't necessarily worried about an end to the multiverse, or even an end to the Material Plane.  Lords of Madness claims that that's the case:



> A starfaring race of great power existing at the very end of time, the mind flayers faced extinction with the imminent ending of all things. Through a great and terrible spell, the mind flayers dispatched great spelljamming fleets from the cold, pitiful remnants of their dying cosmos back through time, appearing in the ancient skies of younger worlds.


...but it's the only source to do so, all of the others just talking about "some ungodly distant time" (as per the Illithiad), and in any case that's in the "here's what people know about the origins of various aberrations and the truth may be different" section of the book.

Given that the illithid empire was specifically a "spelljamming empire" consisting mostly or entirely of Prime crystal spheres (the Illithiad says they controlled "worlds without number" and "infested" the Astral and Ethereal; Dawn of the Overmind says they controlled "several crystal spheres" plus some alternate Primes), and given that the LoM quote talks about "spelljamming fleets" and "younger worlds" (and not, say, an attempt to flee to/through the Astral), it's much more likely that the illithids were trying to escape the end of the particular worlds in their empire rather the end of the whole multiverse.

Because really, there's no evidence the Great Wheel has any sort of built-in ending.  The planes have no concept of an expanding or contract spacetime that will end in a Big Freeze or Big Crunch respectively, and the only mention of "entropy" in fluff is in relation to either chaotic stuff (which is at worst in balance with lawful stuff or at best subordinate to Law after losing the War of Law and Chaos, with no known threat of encroaching on the rest of the Wheel) or negative energy (which is, as far as we know, basically balanced with positive energy at a multiversal level and capable of chugging along indefinitely) or Tharizdun (who's currently imprisoned and not really capable of advancing his agenda, only influencing patsies to try to free him).  It's more likely that the multiverse is effectively eternal unless actively ended than that it's winding down and not a single entity has noticed or mentioned that fact for the millions of years that the Wheel has been around.




> Incorrect. You view it as an _immoral_ or _unconscionable_ act. Both of which are valid. It is _not_ unlawful, or else EULAs to scalp people for data and bank contracts with extraordinarily evil fine print would be illegal.
> 
> Which they aren't, at least where I live.


This is your [time interval]ly reminder that "un-Lawful" is not the same thing as "illegal" given that something or someone can be perfectly Lawful without adhering to any local legal code(s) or to any legal framework at all.</pedant>

But you're right, there's nothing un-Lawful about twisting promises.  A devil can have as their guiding principle "Adhere strictly to the letter and spirit of any agreements made with other devils, but adhere strictly to the letter of any promise made to a mortal while attempting to twist the spirit of the promise as much as possible" and be perfectly reliable and consistent in their values and behavior, more so than an honorable (or "honorable") mortal who attempts to live up to their word but may sometimes fall short and _much_ more so than a demon who might keep the spirit, break the spirit, keep the letter, or break the letter of any promise they make as the whim takes them.

In the words of Jack Sparrow, "A dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest, honestly--it's the honest ones you want to watch out for, 'cause you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly...stupid."  :Small Amused:

----------


## afroakuma

> About the mazes - so no some specific stories about who and how managed to escape from the Maze?


Not apart from those Eldan had mentioned.




> 1) There are some both canon and fan-made theories about how the Multiverse came to life. Are there any in-game\canon\fan predictions or prophecies how it might end? Like our world scientist predict the "heat death of the Universe". And I mean that Multiverse will be destroyed completely, and not captured by Baatezu or something similar.


Nothing specific that I have ever found to be of relevance, merely that the mind flayers fled from it - as far as they were concerned, at least, whether they are *right* or not is another matter entirely - to come back in time.




> 2) Is there any reason to believe that there is something even more larger then Multiverse? Like, let's call it Metaverse or Protoverse, that has a number of Multiverses in it.


I refer to it as the Vast Medium, though it has also been suggested that it might be known as the Macroverse.




> 3) Has it ever been discussed, in-game or out of it, that there might be even more Outer planes? Outer-outer-planes, for example a place where the outsiders that are killed on their own plane go to.


More Outer Planes? It has been theorized. Where dead outsiders go? Absolutely not.




> 4) As I been rereading about Asmodeus and Pact Primeval, another thought came to me. Do deities actually answer to anyone? Yes, there are overgods, like Ao, but this isn't obviously the case.


To one another, insofar as they can check each other's power, and to their faithful. Also to their overdeities where applicable.




> Asmodeus directly mocked deities of Law, he perverted the agreement they had with him. Why they tolerated it? He was unjust, this is obvious. Their only punishment was to cast him down to Baator.


He was not unjust. He was immoral. As noted in that story, retribution - consequence, as it were - is the cornerstone of Law and of Justice. Asmodeus offered retribution, but then immorally engineered a situation in which retribution was owed to a greater number of souls than might have, without his interference, ended up under his sway.




> As I understand, they don't have to answer to some higher power, like absolute manifestation of pure Law, or an over-over-over-god. Why they simply didn't tear him apart for such a mockery?


What would they do that for? With whom or with what would they replace him? The function he represents is required in order for said vision of the multiverse to function as they desire. Someone has to do it, and none of them were exactly leaping in to take charge. The fact that they are all mad at him is more of a feature than a bug, as it disincentivizes them to attempt to align with the Lord Below, bargain with him, or otherwise take sides within the larger cause of Law that might undermine it.




> They don't need to answer to anyone, and he turned the spirit of the agreement to a vile mockery. Why they allowed him to get away with it?


Funny thing about Law - the spirit of the agreement can go pound sand. Law does not care about the spirit of the agreement. The letter is what matters. That is what makes it Law. As for not answering to anyone, by establishing that there was a need for Hell in their vision of the multiverse and teaching their faithful about it, they created a belief that they in fact *do* answer to - a belief in Asmodeus and his Nine Hells. Merely punching him so hard that he ceased existing for a bit would not be enough to erase that, and they are the ones who worked to make it so in the first place.

Anyway, the whole story is also just a baatezu press release, one of the countless ones that Asmodeus likes having spread about him to keep everyone guessing and make himself seem more impressive, so as with all things concerning the Lord Below, take it with a grain of salt.  :Small Tongue: 




> 5) Again about Asmodeus. Before later editions he wan't a god. But he did have a full control on Baator. He once even changed the nature of an entire layer, in a seconds turning it from an endless slope to inside-a-body layout. He, obviously, was very powerful always. He has power to alter his plane, and for comparison Tanar'ri lords can't do that. He can grant clerical spells. He can destroy or unmake any of his subjects at any moment, at will. So, what makes him actually different from a "normal" deities?


Tzardok covered a lot of what I would have said here, so I will just point out that Asmodeus doesn't abuse his powers any moreso than similar entities do. Apart from the reforging of Malbolge, he hasn't substantially altered a layer of Baator in... ever, as far as we know.

*Spoiler*
Show

Or at least, not without colliding with it...  :Small Tongue: 


Asmodeus is *very* powerful and very very cunning, and should not be underestimated, but it should also not be downplayed how much capacity his cognates in other planes have to do big things on their own as well.

----------


## Bartmanhomer

Which plane does the Evening Glory live on?  :Confused:

----------


## afroakuma

> Which plane does the Evening Glory live on?


A canonical one was never given. I placed her on Pelion, third layer of Arborea.

----------


## Bohandas

> This is your [time interval]ly reminder that "un-Lawful" is not the same thing as "illegal" given that something or someone can be perfectly Lawful without adhering to any local legal code(s) or to any legal framework at all.</pedant>


As an addendum to this, it should also be remembered that the same applies to the other alignments as well. The names are loaded and not necessarily accurate, and this goes a long way towards explaining alignment's apparent inconsistencies. (furthermore, the names in other languages may not be loaded the same way, and in particular the languages of the evil monsters likely do not use the same word for "Good" the alignment and "good" as in desirable)

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## Bartmanhomer

> A canonical one was never given. I placed her on Pelion, third layer of Arborea.


An Undead True Neutral deity lived in a Chaotic Good plane......ok then.  :Smile:

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## afroakuma

> An Undead True Neutral deity lived in a Chaotic Good plane......ok then.


Feel free to pitch me your alternative. I am confident my logic is sound.

Gods are not compelled to make their realms on a plane matching their alignment. The Outlands does not have to have every True Neutral deity.

----------


## Edreyn

Afro, thank you for your own answers.
Again, comments from me.




> More Outer Planes? It has been theorized. Where dead outsiders go? Absolutely not.


I am putting emphasis on the word "Outer" and not the word "Planes". So, the meaning is NOT "larger number of Outer Planes", but "Planes that are positioned even further from the Outlands then the original ones."

The fan-made Outer Planes are more neutral and hence *closer* to Outlands.




> What would they do that for? With whom or with what would they replace him? The function he represents is required in order for said vision of the multiverse to function as they desire. Someone has to do it, and none of them were exactly leaping in to take charge. The fact that they are all mad at him is more of a feature than a bug, as it disincentivizes them to attempt to align with the Lord Below, bargain with him, or otherwise take sides within the larger cause of Law that might undermine it.


Weren't there any other entities that wanted to punish either those guilty or those who are atheists?
Both Cyric and Kelemvor, each in his own way, tried to do something like that.
I don't believe that among first deities there wasn't someone with similar ideology and skills.

I hope you are not offended that I am arguing with you. I want to share my opinion and not insult yours.




> Anyway, the whole story is also just a baatezu press release, one of the countless ones that Asmodeus likes having spread about him to keep everyone guessing and make himself seem more impressive, so as with all things concerning the Lord Below, take it with a grain of salt.


Yeah, he is Lord of Lies.  :Small Big Grin: 




> Funny thing about Law - the spirit of the agreement can go pound sand. Law does not care about the spirit of the agreement. The letter is what matters.


Again, sorry, but I am not sure that in Planescape world lawful guys believe it, or at least not everyone.
What I am talking about - there is a faction in Sigil that follows exactly this ideology - Fated. That's their motto - to twist all rules, laws and promises as you see fit. And that's exactly why Law factions hate them most direly. But unlike with Indeps, Fated bite back, so harder to eradicate.

Yes, Guvners are sometimes accused in finding loopholes in laws, but in the majority Guvners don't use it for own benefit, at least not that dirty.
I see them more close to real world scientists - one can say that scientists are looking how to go around laws of nature, like if one has no wings, he can build a flying machine.




> I refer to it as the Vast Medium, though it has also been suggested that it might be known as the Macroverse.


Are there some interesting stories or articles about it?

Again, I enjoy the discussion, and hope everyone else does too. If not, just ask me to stop and I will.

----------


## Tzardok

> Weren't there any other entities that wanted to punish either those guilty or those who are atheists?
> Both Cyric and Kelemvor, each in his own way, tried to do something like that.
> I don't believe that among first deities there wasn't someone with similar ideology and skills.


Except for Guide to Hell, no book has ever connected Asmodeus with atheism. In fact, people worshipping Asmodeus is the opposite of atheism.
Also of importance is that the "no atheism" clause is specifically a Toril (or at least Faerûn) thing. Cyric and Kelemvor didn't start it; their precedessors Myrkul and Jergal already did the same thing. In fact, Kelemvor was chewed out by the other deities for not indescriminately punishing atheists, instead giving them an afterlife based on good and evil deeds, thereby inadvertently _encouraging_ atheism. This makes it likely that it a "Ao wills it" or at least a "tradition and convention wills it" thing.




> Yeah, he is Lord of Lies.


Nope, that's Baalzebul's title.  :Small Tongue: 




> Again, sorry, but I am not sure that in Planescape world lawful guys believe it, or at least not everyone.
> What I am talking about - there is a faction in Sigil that follows exactly this ideology - Fated. That's their motto - to twist all rules, laws and promises as you see fit. And that's exactly why Law factions hate them most direly. But unlike with Indeps, Fated bite back, so harder to eradicate.


Uhm, no. The Fated philosophy is "Might makes Right" with a dash of "Self-sufficiency is king". The fact that a Fated will without thought break any promise he doesn't believe will be to his own benefit, together with the fact that they feel most at home in Ysgard suggests that they are a primarily chaotic ideology. Something you yourself also believe, or you wouldn't compare them to the Indeps, who espouse the chaotic ideology of "Think for yourself".

Edit: Also, I'm not sure how you came up with the idea that the lawful factions hate and hunt the Fated, as they fulfill a role vital for Sigil's government under the factions: they are the tax collectors.

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## Bartmanhomer

> Feel free to pitch me your alternative. I am confident my logic is sound.
> 
> Gods are not compelled to make their realms on a plane matching their alignment. The Outlands does not have to have every True Neutral deity.


This is just my opinion but I think Evening Glory fits in the Outlands more appropriately.  :Biggrin:

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## afroakuma

> I am putting emphasis on the word "Outer" and not the word "Planes". So, the meaning is NOT "larger number of Outer Planes", but "Planes that are positioned even further from the Outlands then the original ones."


Not particularly. There hasn't been any notion of "further Out" in that sense that I have seen. I am not certain what the point would be or what would differentiate them from more extreme layers of the existing Outer Planes.




> Weren't there any other entities that wanted to punish either those guilty or those who are atheists?


It is not the job of Asmodeus to punish atheists. Outside of the cosmology of the Forgotten Realms, which made atheists the problem of the God of Death, and one the mortal-originated death gods have been so profoundly incapable of resolving that they mortared them into a dumb wall, atheists are not inherently due any kind of punishment in the afterlife.




> I don't believe that among first deities there wasn't someone with similar ideology and skills.


It is a lack of skill that created the Wall of the Faithless, as Myrkul couldn't figure out a safe way to deal with the souls of atheists piling up. Cyric left it because he's a huge jerk. Kelemvor tried to revoke it, but discovered that people would abandon their gods to cast themselves on his mercy when they believed they had the alternative, which stoked larger problems.




> I hope you are not offended that I am arguing with you. I want to share my opinion and not insult yours.


I am not.




> Again, sorry, but I am not sure that in Planescape world lawful guys believe it, or at least not everyone.
> What I am talking about - there is a faction in Sigil that follows exactly this ideology - Fated. That's their motto - to twist all rules, laws and promises as you see fit. And that's exactly why Law factions hate them most direly. But unlike with Indeps, Fated bite back, so harder to eradicate.


The Fated do not align with that whatsoever. Neither the letter nor the spirit of the law bind the Fated to anything, only the direct force of the law. To the Fated, if you *can* do a thing - not *are permitted to*, but *are able to* - and you *want* to do a thing, then *do it*. This is inherently Chaotic - the exaltation of the self and repudiation of an external order. Asmodeus believes very strongly in rules, he just believes that he is best qualified to set them and that one who has mastery of rules knows the exact parameters of how they can be abused. That doesn't make him Chaotic, it makes him Evil.

With respect to the story of the Pact Primeval, Asmodeus would argue that the loophole which allowed him to tempt mortals to sin is not in any way his fault, but rather the fault of the lawful gods, who - if their priority had *really* been to ensure souls were saved from damnation, rather than to sanction them for misbehavior - would have ensured no such loophole existed. They certainly could have invested their efforts toward that end, but they did not, because they created a tool to fit their intention. As far as Asmodeus is concerned, therefore, even the spirit of the Pact Primeval does not restrain him, because it was created in the spirit of punishment by entities who *could* have done better but had other priorities. They did get what they wanted. Asmodeus will not feel any amount of contrition that the gods of Law didn't want the right thing. That's on them.




> Are there some interesting stories or articles about it?


None.




> Again, I enjoy the discussion, and hope everyone else does too. If not, just ask me to stop and I will.


I mean, that *is* what the thread is here for.




> This is just my opinion but I think Evening Glory fits in the Outlands more appropriately.


Do you have any rationale, other than the alignment of the plane? The Outlands has nothing in particular to do with her portfolio.

*Spoiler*
Show

To say nothing of the fact that the domains table in Libris Mortis gives away that she was intended to be written as Chaotic Good.

----------


## Tzardok

> I mean, that *is* what the thread is here for.


I personally am just happy that the thread has approached the activity level of the fifth and sixth thread. That was a good time. *nostalgic dreams*

Edit:




> It is a lack of skill that created the Wall of the Faithless, as Myrkul couldn't figure out a safe way to deal with the souls of atheists piling up. Cyric left it because he's a huge jerk. Kelemvor tried to revoke it, but discovered that people would abandon their gods to cast themselves on his mercy when they believed they had the alternative, which stoked larger problems.


By the way, is anything known about how Jergal managed that particular problem and why Myrkul didn't just ask him? I mean, Jergal became his sucessors' seneschal, he was available.

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## Bartmanhomer

> Not particularly. There hasn't been any notion of "further Out" in that sense that I have seen. I am not certain what the point would be or what would differentiate them from more extreme layers of the existing Outer Planes.
> 
> 
> 
> It is not the job of Asmodeus to punish atheists. Outside of the cosmology of the Forgotten Realms, which made atheists the problem of the God of Death, and one the mortal-originated death gods have been so profoundly incapable of resolving that they mortared them into a dumb wall, atheists are not inherently due any kind of punishment in the afterlife.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a lack of skill that created the Wall of the Faithless, as Myrkul couldn't figure out a safe way to deal with the souls of atheists piling up. Cyric left it because he's a huge jerk. Kelemvor tried to revoke it, but discovered that people would abandon their gods to cast themselves on his mercy when they believed they had the alternative, which stoked larger problems.
> ...


No. Not really unfortunately.  :Frown:   :Sigh:

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## Tzardok

> No. Not really unfortunately.


Could you _please_ only quote the part of a post you actually are referring to? I don't think this is the first time I asked you to do that.

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## Bartmanhomer

> Could you _please_ only quote the part of a post you are referring to? I don't think this is the first time I asked you to do that.


I was referring to the Evening Glory being on the Outlands.

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## Tzardok

> I was referring to the Evening Glory being on the Outlands.


I could infer what you meant. What annoys me is the fact that the quote was, depending on how you zoom and if you are on mobile or not, at least _35 lines_ long, while you answered with _a single_ line that refered only to the _last line_ of the quote. When reading the thread on mobile, that's an aweful lot of scrolling for very little gain. In short, it's rude.

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## Bartmanhomer

> I could infer what you meant. What annoys me is the fact that the quote was, depending on how you zoom and if you are on mobile or not, at least _35 lines_ long, while you answered with _a single_ line that refered only to the _last line_ of the quote. When reading the thread on mobile, that's an aweful lot of scrolling for very little gain. In short, it's rude.


Well I do apologize for that.  :Frown:

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## afroakuma

> By the way, is anything known about how Jergal managed that particular problem and why Myrkul didn't just ask him? I mean, Jergal became his sucessors' seneschal, he was available.


I would imagine it was a confluence of factors, not least of which of course is that Jergal at his height was far more powerful than Myrkul or Kelemvor. Only Cyric came close to him, and Cyric would never have made an effort to do anything productive. Even if he could have told Myrkul how he did it, that does not mean that Myrkul could have, or would have, taken the same steps.

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## Edreyn

I guess I shouldn't write when tired.




> Uhm, no. The Fated philosophy is "Might makes Right" with a dash of "Self-sufficiency is king". The fact that a Fated will without thought break any promise he doesn't believe will be to his own benefit, together with the fact that they feel most at home in Ysgard suggests that they are a primarily chaotic ideology. Something you yourself also believe, or you wouldn't compare them to the Indeps, who espouse the chaotic ideology of "Think for yourself".
> 
> Edit: Also, I'm not sure how you came up with the idea that the lawful factions hate and hunt the Fated, as they fulfill a role vital for Sigil's government under the factions: they are the tax collectors.


That's what I actually meant. Law factions, especially the Hardheaded Harmonium hate less-lawful factions. Among them, Indeps are most vulnerable, that's why Harmonium guys kill them whenever they can. They can't do it with others, for example it's hard to catch a Anarchist on hot, and as you said, Fated are too important to risk harming them. But they do hate them nevertheless.

Now, why I compared Fated to Asmodeus. In one of lore books, there is a short story on how Fated sold another faction a library. And only after getting their money, they said that they only were selling a building, a structure, not the books and scrolls that the buyer actually wanted.

So, is this breaking a promise, or finding a loophole in it? I see it exactly the same situation as with Pact.




> Evening Glory


Had to google about who she is, but now agree with Afro, if she is a goddess of love, even from beyond the grave, she obviously belongs to Arborea. Love, especially the non-standard type of it? Obviously Chaotic Good.

Some additional questions:

1) Do over-gods also reside on Outer Planes? Do they have some manifestations\avatars there? If not, do they live "physically" elsewhere in the known parts of Multiverse? The further-Outer planes I asked about earlier could be such a place, for example.

2) Are there deities living (and not floating around dead) in Astral or Etherial? If yes, do they have petitioners?

3) Many times people mentioned Ordeal plane. Are there any descriptions on how it looks, what physical (or equivalent) laws it has and who lives there? Or only speculations? Maybe the over-gods live there?

4) What happens if a person, who is not a god and not similar to Asmodeus, is being worshiped? I guess there are quite enough examples: both Githyanki and Githzerai worship their leaders, Darksun kings are also worshipped as gods, or in Neverwinter Nights there was a dragolich Vix'thra who forced people not just obey, but actually worship him.
How real deities with actual divine rank look on this? Can one actually become a god in such a case? What happens with them upon death?

5) In the famous Dragonlance series, there was a girl named Mina. She was a goddess, but didn't know this. She thought that her power comes from worshiping Takhisis, and no one directly worshiped Mina herself. What happens to creatures like her if they try to get into Sigil (oblivious to their true nature). Can they die on Prime? Are there any examples of those in "generic" Planescape setting?

6) Are Tiamat and Takhisis same entity or different ones? They are way too similar. Why Planescape puts Takhisis on Baator and Krynn in Abyss? What is actually correct?

7) Except Limbo, are there other places where mortal can re-shape his surroundings using only his will?

----------


## Tzardok

> Well I do apologize for that.


Just don't do it again. Or, even better, go edit your post and cut out the superfluous parts.




> That's what I actually meant. Law factions, especially the Hardheaded Harmonium hate less-lawful factions. Among them, Indeps are most vulnerable, that's why Harmonium guys kill them whenever they can. They can't do it with others, for example it's hard to catch a Anarchist on hot, and as you said, Fated are too important to risk harming them. But they do hate them nevertheless.


I don't think I ever heard about the Harmonium simply going around and killing Free League members. It doesn't make sense for a bunch of reasons.

First, the Harmonium is the police of Sigil. And no one would stand for a police force that goes around murdering a sizeable and influential subgroup of a society (don't forget that a lot of rich merchants are indeps).

Second, the Harmonium is not only Lawful, but also (at least partially) Good. I don't think that killing people for adhering to a non-evil ideology is compatible with that.

Third, serial killings draw the Lady's eye.




> Now, why I compared Fated to Asmodeus. In one of lore books, there is a short story on how Fated sold another faction a library. And only after getting their money, they said that they only were selling a building, a structure, not the books and scrolls that the buyer actually wanted.
> 
> So, is this breaking a promise, or finding a loophole in it? I see it exactly the same situation as with Pact.


The Takers have a chaotic ideology, but not so strongly chaotic that every member needs to be chaotic. Furthermore, a chaotic person may twist, break or keep promises at a whim. So we can't know what alignment this specific Taker had. Is he lawful and uses the Taker's ideology as a rationalization, but requires the additional word twisting to feel safe? Is he chaotic and just felt like playing word games? Maybe he is neutral. *shrug*




> 1) Do over-gods also reside on Outer Planes? Do they have some manifestations\avatars there? If not, do they live "physically" elsewhere in the known parts of Multiverse? The further-Outer planes I asked about earlier could be such a place, for example.


No divine realm or similar place for over-god was ever found. I personally believe that they live on the Prime, somehow in or around their respective crystal sphere, but we can only guess.




> 2) Are there deities living (and not floating around dead) in Astral or Etherial? If yes, do they have petitioners?


The Etheral has a whole lot of deities living there (or better, a whole lot of deities build themselves Etheral demiplanes where they live). Amongst them are Ptah of the Pharaonic pantheon, the three gods of magic of Krynn and a bunch more.

The Astral is technically possible as a home for deities, but (as Afro told us in an earlier thread) it is less of a place and more a between, which makes it difficult to stay there (and, unlike the Etheral, it's nature is not as suited for shaping something there). Also, most gods find the dead gods floating there depressing. The only gods I ever heard of that live there are Ulutiu, a Faerûnian god af glaciers who sleeps there, and Alausha, illumian goddess of knowledge and grief, who wanders the plane.

_All_ deities, no matter where they live, have petitioners in some form.




> 3) Many times people mentioned Ordeal plane. Are there any descriptions on how it looks, what physical (or equivalent) laws it has and who lives there? Or only speculations? Maybe the over-gods live there?


Everything about the Ordeal is speculation. Yes, I have read the guess that the overgods live there. I have also heard the guess that all gods live there, and the gods you meet elsewhere are just avatars. Another guess is that it is connected in some way to language and symbolism, which is why (so the claim) it is full of glowing sigils. But essentially, everything is shrug.




> 4) What happens if a person, who is not a god and not similar to Asmodeus, is being worshiped? I guess there are quite enough examples: both Githyanki and Githzerai worship their leaders, Darksun kings are also worshipped as gods, or in Neverwinter Nights there was a dragolich Vix'thra who forced people not just obey, but actually worship him.
> How real deities with actual divine rank look on this? Can one actually become a god in such a case? What happens with them upon death?


Some deities sponsor cults like that. Beholders, for example, have a tendency to form cults to them, which draw on the power of the Great Mother. It _is_ possible to achieve apotheosis this way, but in most cases there is something more needed. See also Lich-Queen Vlakith's attempts to drain a dead god's divinity in addition to making the githzerai worship her.
Usually the afterlife of a would-be god doesn't change if they fail.




> 6) Are Tiamat and Takhisis same entity or different ones? They are way too similar. Why Planescape puts Takhisis on Baator and Krynn in Abyss? What is actually correct?


Takhisis is essentially a dragon fan-girl, hence her styling herself after Tiamat. She's still fundamentally a humanoid goddess. If you were to, I don't know, supprise both goddesses in the bath, Takhisis would be human-shaped, while Tiamat would be dragon-shaped. (You would also likely have a worse time than Aktaion did  :Small Tongue: ) Takhisis is also more powerful; she is a greater goddess while Tiamat is just a lesser one.

The reason for the planar mismatch is the fact that Krynn's people are... simple in their understanding of the planes. On Krynn, they believe that there are only three Outer Planes: The good Dome of Creation, the evil Abyss and the neutral Hidden Vale. So through the lense of their understanding, _all_ Lower Planes are the Abyss. This, obviously, leads to a lot of missunderstandings when talking with someone more... Great Wheel-affine. Like this one.




> 7) Except Limbo, are there other places where mortal can re-shape his surroundings using only his will?


The Etheral is made of protoplasm, which is easily shaped into facsimiles of many things if you know what you are doing. Hence the abbundance of Etheral demiplanes.

The Region of Dreams easily surrenders to the will of a lucid dreamer.

Shadow is also very fluid, but requires shadow magic in addition to pure will to be controlled.

----------


## Edreyn

> I don't think I ever heard about the Harmonium simply going around and killing Free League members. It doesn't make sense for a bunch of reasons.
> 
> First, the Harmonium is the police of Sigil. And no one would stand for a police force that goes around murdering a sizeable and influential subgroup of a society (don't forget that a lot of rich merchants are indeps).
> 
> Second, the Harmonium is not only Lawful, but also (at least partially) Good. I don't think that killing people for adhering to a non-evil ideology is compatible with that.
> 
> Third, serial killings draw the Lady's eye.


It's from Factol's Manifesto book, introduction of the chapter about free League.
Harmonium guys try to arrest a bariaur who wears a sign of Indeps. For no reason, directly saying this.He resists and they kill him. Just for being an Indep.

The story about library is also from there, chapter about Fated. Who exactly did this isn't said, but I assume that Darkwood at the very least knew of it.

Also, the "good" part of their alignment is... strange, let's say. Don't forget that their beloved Outer Plane: Arcadia lost a whole layer to Mechanus due to their cruelty towards prisoners.




> The only gods I ever heard of that live there are Ulutiu, a Faerûnian god af glaciers who sleeps there, and Anausha, illumian goddess of knowledge and grief, who wanders the plane.


So they can be found pretty much everywhere.




> Takhisis is essentially a dragon fan-girl, hence her styling herself after Tiamat.


Ha, that as a good one!




> She's still fundamentally a humanoid goddess. If you were to, I don't know, supprise both goddesses in the bath, Takhisis would be human-shaped, while Tiamat would be dragon-shaped. Takhisis is also more powerful; she is a greater goddess while Tiamat is just a lesser one.


So, Takhisis just copies Tiamat's image, but she is actually more powerful? That makes it even more weird.




> The Etheral is made of protoplasm, which is easily shaped into facsimiles of many things if you know what you are doing. Hence the abbundance of Etheral demiplanes.
> 
> The Region of Dreams easily surrenders to the will of a lucid dreamer.
> 
> Shadow is also very fluid, but requires shadow magic in addition to pure will to be controlled.


Nice answer, so there are other such places. Planescape lore is really great, thank you for answering.

Now, I suggest to wait for Afro and let him say his final verdict about Harmonium, Indeps and Fated.

----------


## Tzardok

> So, Takhisis just copies Tiamat's image, but she is actually more powerful? That makes it even more weird.


The problem is that Tiamat is primarily a goddess of dragons. Dragons are powerful, but there aren't a lot of them and most of them are not very faithful. So most chromatic dragons go essentially: "Yeah, she's our mother, we love and fear her and all that rot. Now, how about burning down a village?" Tiamat also gets a bit of devotion from evil humanoids worshipping dragons, but most of the crussader-of-evil types her dogma appeals to prefer in fact more humanoid deities like Bane or Hextor. The last source of worship Tiamat gets is from her inclusion in the Babylonian pantheon, but even there it's not a lot, as she is "the Enemy of the Gods" in their eyes. Not many people are depraved enough that they go worshipping that (see also the pitiful size of the Pharaonian cults for Apep, or the Norse cults for Thrym and Sutr).

Takhisis, on the other hand, is a pantheon leader. She dominates Evil on Krynn. Everything evil pays her at least token respect, and a lot of her faithful are downright fanatic.

In short, Tiamat drinks from a wide, but shallow pool. Takhisis has a small well, but it goes *deep.*




> Now, I suggest to wait for Afro and let him say his final verdict about Harmonium, Indeps and Fated.


Agreed. My store of arguments is about running out, anyway.

----------


## Edreyn

While we wait, I remembered I had another question:

8) How many Mystras were there? One was killed by Helm, the one after her (Midnight) by Cyric (or it was another one?)
In any case, how many goddesses with same name existed, how each died, where each came from, and most importantly, why on earth all of them willingly rejected their own identity?!

And another one I thought about now:

9) If a deity dies, what happens with its divine realm and those who live\exist there?

----------


## Tzardok

> 8) How many Mystras were there? One was killed by Helm, the one after her (Midnight) by Cyric (or it was another one?)
> In any case, how many goddesses with same name existed, how each died, where each came from, and most importantly, why on earth all of them willingly rejected their own identity?!


There were only two Mystras, and (as we reject everything that happend in 4e) only one of them is dead. 

The first deity of magic in the realms was named Mystryl (chaotic neutral). Mystryl died when Karsus did his stunt. When the dust had settled, Mystryl had been reborn, for lack of a better term, as the first Mystra (lawful neutral). Mystra died in the Time of Troubles at the hand of Helm because she tried to force her way back into the planes, but she chose the human wizard Midnight as her sucessor. Midnight was raised to divinity at the end of the Time of Troubles by Ao and chose to honor her precedessor (whom she had worshipped in life) by taking her name and generally continuing to sponsor first Mystra's clerics, even those that were incompatible with her own alignment (neutral good).

----------


## afroakuma

> Now, why I compared Fated to Asmodeus. In one of lore books, there is a short story on how Fated sold another faction a library. And only after getting their money, they said that they only were selling a building, a structure, not the books and scrolls that the buyer actually wanted.
> 
> So, is this breaking a promise, or finding a loophole in it? I see it exactly the same situation as with Pact.


To be frank, that is neither. In real-world law, if a contract is for the sale of a library, the building is *all* you would get - no furniture, no books, certainly no employees - unless your contract stipulates you get those other things too. If what you want is the books, offer to buy the books.




> 1) Do over-gods also reside on Outer Planes? Do they have some manifestations\avatars there? If not, do they live "physically" elsewhere in the known parts of Multiverse? The further-Outer planes I asked about earlier could be such a place, for example.


Overdeities do not reside on the Planes. They are beyond such a delimitation of existence.




> 2) Are there deities living (and not floating around dead) in Astral or Etherial? If yes, do they have petitioners?


There are a small number of deities who have realms in the Ethereal Plane, and they do have petitioners. Ptah of the Pharaonic pantheon wanders the plane, and the Immortals of the Chinese pantheon reside in a shared realm there. The deities of magic from the Krynnish pantheon have their shared realm in the Ethereal, as well. The only god I can think of who lives and is active in the Astral is Celestian, the Oeridian god of the stars. Ulutiu is asleep there, with no plans to wake, and his petitioners are with him. Aulasha had built her realm there, but it fell to the githyanki as she was still a novice deity and did not fully understand how to defend her realm. Now she wanders the planes.




> 3) Many times people mentioned Ordeal plane. Are there any descriptions on how it looks, what physical (or equivalent) laws it has and who lives there? Or only speculations? Maybe the over-gods live there?


Since the Ordial Plane is noncanonical, it has been purely speculation, though based on what is speculated it would not be the realm of overdeities either.




> 4) What happens if a person, who is not a god and not similar to Asmodeus, is being worshiped? I guess there are quite enough examples: both Githyanki and Githzerai worship their leaders, Darksun kings are also worshipped as gods, or in Neverwinter Nights there was a dragolich Vix'thra who forced people not just obey, but actually worship him.


It takes a *lot* of belief to ascend to divinity without some sort of additional spark. For the most part, mortal veneration of another mortal just does not get there. Unless an extant deity provides their forbearance, usually such worship is syncretized to that of an existing deity, who gets the actual value of the worship, so they don't particularly mind.




> Can one actually become a god in such a case?


It is possible, but as mentioned above, it takes a *lot* of juice and the flame may never catch without a spark.




> 5) In the famous Dragonlance series, there was a girl named Mina. She was a goddess, but didn't know this. She thought that her power comes from worshiping Takhisis, and no one directly worshiped Mina herself. What happens to creatures like her if they try to get into Sigil (oblivious to their true nature). Can they die on Prime? Are there any examples of those in "generic" Planescape setting?


She would have failed to enter. Deities cannot pass through a portal to Sigil, whether or not they know they are deities is irrelevant. The majority of Mina's power was separate from her incarnation, which was essentially an avatar, and had it died her consciousness would have theoretically rejoined her godhead on her home plane, though it is suggested that Takhisis had figured out a way to trick Mina into effectively suppressing *herself* and would likely have been able to interfere. I am not aware of any other situations like this in Planescape.

I should also point out that I hate pretty much everything from Summer Flame forward and ignore it wholeheartedly. Killed all the fun stuff in DL.




> 6) Are Tiamat and Takhisis same entity or different ones? They are way too similar.


Depends which author you ask - literally, since they have arguments about this and have taken sides. For our part where it comes to Planescape and these threads, they are different.

Tiamat is a goddess of chromatic dragons. She is a patron of greed and wealth, and wants power for her children and to cast down Bahamut. Her worshippers are chiefly evil dragons or those who venerate them. She is quite evil.

Takhisis is a goddess of humans, ogres, and goblinoids who uses the motif of the five-headed dragon to represent her power, awe, and majesty, in contrast to her brother Paladine echoing Bahamut's platinum dragon form. She is a patron of hatred, tyranny, ambition, wrath, and wants power for herself to cast down literally everyone else. Her worshippers are chiefly humans, goblinoids, and ogres. She is *excessively* evil to the point of being directly counterproductive to her ambitions because she just *cannot stop being the most awful*. Chromatic dragons look up to Tiamat as their role model - but even though Takhisis is *quite literally* a direct ancestor of all chromatic dragons on Krynn, many of them find her too horribly evil for even their tastes, which is really saying something. It helps that Tiamat thinks her chromatic dragons are the best and most deserving, while Takhisis thinks Takhisis is the best and most deserving.




> Why Planescape puts Takhisis on Baator and Krynn in Abyss? What is actually correct?


Technically both of them place her in Baator. The cosmological understanding of Krynnish faiths does not distinguish between Lower Planes, which are all called "the Abyss" to them.




> 7) Except Limbo, are there other places where mortal can re-shape his surroundings using only his will?


Other such planes *could* exist, but none on the books do. Magic or some other supernatural ability are required to shape ethereal protomatter in a useful fashion, for example.




> Also, the "good" part of their alignment is... strange, let's say. Don't forget that their beloved Outer Plane: Arcadia lost a whole layer to Mechanus due to their cruelty towards prisoners.


Strained moreso than strange. They lost Nemausus by trying to force people to be good.




> So they can be found pretty much everywhere.


Gods? Oh yes, though the Astral is by *far* the plane with the fewest living ones.




> Now, I suggest to wait for Afro and let him say his final verdict about Harmonium, Indeps and Fated.


Not sure what more you want me to add...




> 8) How many Mystras were there? One was killed by Helm, the one after her (Midnight) by Cyric (or it was another one?)
> In any case, how many goddesses with same name existed, how each died, where each came from, and most importantly, why on earth all of them willingly rejected their own identity?


We don't recognize the killing of Mystra by Cyric, since that is 4E.

There were only two Mystras, if the name specifically is what you care about, but three goddesses of magic of the same lineage. The original was Mystryl, who died repairing the Weave after Karsus temporarily pulled it into himself. She was reborn as Mystra, who died during the Time of Troubles when she challenged Helm. Her godhead was invested in Midnight, who took on the name of Mystra in honor of the destroyed goddess and to restore some continuity to the Church of Mysteries.




> 9) If a deity dies, what happens with its divine realm and those who live\exist there?


The petitioners will drift out and merge with the plane. Other inhabitants will elect to leave - the divine realm of a dead power collapses and rots, a process which is neither fast nor pleasant.

----------


## Edreyn

I don't want to write something stupid because of being tired a second time, so won't comment for now, will continue after resting.

But about this:




> Now, I suggest to wait for Afro and let him say his final verdict about Harmonium, Indeps and Fated.
> 			
> 		
> 
> Not sure what more you want me to add...


Please answer this one: am I right to say that Harmoniums kill Indeps when they get a chance to do it without being caught, or Tzardok is right that such behavior isn't typical for them.

----------


## Eldan

Wasn't there also a Hindu God on the Ethereal? Brahma maybe? 

Hm. No, in On Hallowed Ground, Brahma is more interesting than that. He's part of all the other gods and they are part of him, so he shares all of their realms and/or doesn't have one. 

Anyway, you can put a lot of creation gods on the ethereal. They probably almost all fit there.

----------


## afroakuma

> Please answer this one: am I right to say that Harmoniums kill Indeps when they get a chance to do it without being caught, or Tzardok is right that such behavior isn't typical for them.


It would not be typical of them to immediately leap to murder, but finding an excuse to incarcerate or beat an Indep is not at all outside the Harmonium standard. It should be noted that the Harmonium does include lawful evil members who are quite pleased to have a mandate justifying their taste for violent suppression. The evil members are the ones taking advantage of the factions' mutual dislike.

----------


## Bohandas

Speaking of where gods are, wasn't Iuz stuck in the Demiplane of Dread at some point in 2e? How did he get out?

----------


## afroakuma

> Speaking of where gods are, wasn't Iuz stuck in the Demiplane of Dread at some point in 2e? How did he get out?


Briefly. Vecna tricked him into entering, then ate him to escape, then vomited him back up when he got kicked in the get-out-of-Sigil.

----------


## Bohandas

I thought Vecna just siphoned off his power like Zagyg did

----------


## enderlord99

> There are a small number of deities who have realms in the Ethereal Plane, and they do have petitioners. Ptah of the Pharaonic pantheon wanders the plane


I thought he had a Realm (that was sort of two realms, but not really) on Purgatory, the Lawful-tending Neutral plane that might or might not exist between Mechanus and the Outlands.

----------


## Tzardok

> I thought he had a Realm (that was sort of two realms, but not really) on Purgatory, the Lawful-tending Neutral plane that might or might not exist between Mechanus and the Outlands.


Purgatory is a fan-made plane. Ptah wandering the Etheral is the canonical answer.

----------


## enderlord99

> Purgatory is a fan-made plane.


I knew that.


> Ptah wandering the Etheral is the canonical answer.


TBH, I was hoping he didn't canonically have a home plane listed at all.  Unfortunate.

----------


## Tzardok

> TBH, I was hoping he didn't canonically have a home plane listed at all.  Unfortunate.


Not every pantheon can have a Brahma, an Io, an Annam or a Sheila. *shrug*

Something else: In the Dragon #288, in an article on gods of death there is a write up for Baron Samedi. Is there anything else on loa as gods in D&D?

----------


## afroakuma

> Not every pantheon can have a Brahma, an Io, an Annam or a Sheila. *shrug*
> 
> Something else: In the Dragon #288, in an article on gods of death there is a write up for Baron Samedi. Is there anything else on loa as gods in D&D?


Not so far as I know.

----------


## Laughing Dog

Out of curiosity, are there any gods and/or major(-ish) planar powers the reside in The Region of Dreams?

Also, what would be the best books to learn more of said plane (fluff and mechanics) other than The Manual of Planes?

----------


## Edreyn

I am back, so let's continue discussion. Though, I guess I think i got the answer and shared my opinion too, so this part is concluded.




> To be frank, that is neither. In real-world law, if a contract is for the sale of a library, the building is all you would get - no furniture, no books, certainly no employees - unless your contract stipulates you get those other things too. If what you want is the books, offer to buy the books.


Now when you put it like this, I agree with you. However in the Manifesto it's described that way, that makes me believe, that the buyer expected the library to be sold including everything else within. I'd expect that the "ad" was saying "we are selling a library" and not "we are selling a library building".

So, again, while I do agree with you, I personally see that they walked around the agreement.

Well, it doesn't matter much. It's fine if people don't agree on details.

----------


## Eldan

> Out of curiosity, are there any gods and/or major(-ish) planar powers the reside in The Region of Dreams?
> 
> Also, what would be the best books to learn more of said plane (fluff and mechanics) other than The Manual of Planes?


Pretty sure there aren't any other sources on it, I think that was invented for the MotP.

----------


## Edreyn

Now a new question:

1) Are there any pleasant places on Inner Planes (to Prime mortals)?
2) Are there any places on Lower Planes where Prime mortal would be allowed in a tolerable conditions? And NOT in Realms or cities run by mortals.

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## Eldan

The Plane of Air is largely inhabitable and not too unpleasant, if you find some ground to stand on. There's cities on rocks and so on. The Plane of water has bubbles of air that are more or less inhabitable. If you have air breathing, the plane of water is for the most part full of life. The plane of earth has cave systems, including cities. Fire, not for the most part, though there is the City of Brass, which is marginally liveable.

----------


## Tzardok

> Out of curiosity, are there any gods and/or major(-ish) planar powers the reside in The Region of Dreams?
> 
> Also, what would be the best books to learn more of said plane (fluff and mechanics) other than The Manual of Planes?


Heroes of Horror has a chapter on adventures in dreams, but it is mostly fluff and doesn't even use the term 'Region of Dreams'. It still may be usefull.

The Dragon #287 has an article about alternatives to the Region of Dreams. It also includes a few deities of dreams that, if you want to include them in your setting, could be residents of the Region.




> Now a new question:
> 
> 1) Are there any pleasant places on Inner Planes (to Prime mortals)?
> 2) Are there any places on Lower Planes where Prime mortal would be allowed in a tolerable conditions? And NOT in Realms or cities run by mortals.


1. Eldan already covered the Elemental Planes. The Negative Energy Plane is, obviously, unpleasant everywhere. The Positive Energy Plane has a few places that are both only weakly positively aligned and have enough matter to matter.
The Para-Elemental Planes are generally unpleasant (hot lava, mud everywhere, smoky air, frigid cold), but the local genies may have tolerable cities, similiar to what the Efreet do with the City of Brass.
The Quasi-Elemental Planes are worse than the Para-Elemental ones, with the exception of Mineral, which is similiar to Earth in liveability.

2. Depends. Bigger cities like Dis, Zelatar or Jangling Hither can be quite guest-friendly, as long as you don't annoy the locals. Androlynne, layer 471 of the Abyss, is worthy of mention, as half of the layer is occupied by eladrin wrapped in a war against Pale Night and her minions. The eladrin won't be averse to mortals willing to support them.

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## afroakuma

> Out of curiosity, are there any gods and/or major(-ish) planar powers the reside in The Region of Dreams?


Given that it only cropped up in the Manual of the Planes and one adventure, that would be a no.  :Small Tongue: 




> Also, what would be the best books to learn more of said plane (fluff and mechanics) other than The Manual of Planes?


Bastion of Broken Souls is the only other book I know that handles the dream rules from the Manual of the Planes in any way, and does not really touch on the Region of Dreams in any meaningful sense.




> Now when you put it like this, I agree with you. However in the Manifesto it's described that way, that makes me believe, that the buyer expected the library to be sold including everything else within. I'd expect that the "ad" was saying "we are selling a library" and not "we are selling a library building".
> 
> So, again, while I do agree with you, I personally see that they walked around the agreement.


They set up an offer to catch an idiot, and caught an idiot. _Caveat emptor._ 




> 1) Are there any pleasant places on Inner Planes (to Prime mortals)?


Oh, certainly. Plenty of settlements, divine realms, pockets... now, the caveat to that is, most of these are on Air, Water, and Earth. Fire has comparatively far fewer, the Para-Elemental Planes even less, the Quasi-Elemental Planes next to none, and Positive and Negative are both pretty horrid with the exception of some rare few magically protected sanctuary sites.




> 2) Are there any places on Lower Planes where Prime mortal would be allowed in a tolerable conditions? And NOT in Realms or cities run by mortals.


Fiends run cities, too, and they like money and trade just fine. Now, the question I suppose is what constitutes "tolerable conditions", since if you are trying to ask, in a roundabout way, if there is anywhere that the fiends are nice to mortals and it is safe to be, the answer is me laughing maniacally for several minutes. The best case scenario in the Lower Planes is relative to the norm.

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## Edreyn

> Fiends run cities, too, and they like money and trade just fine. Now, the question I suppose is what constitutes "tolerable conditions", since if you are trying to ask, in a roundabout way, if there is anywhere that the fiends are nice to mortals and it is safe to be, the answer is me laughing maniacally for several minutes. The best case scenario in the Lower Planes is relative to the norm.


I'd never expect fiends to be actually nice, they ARE fiends after all. When I said tolerable conditions I meant: is there a place where a mortal would be allowed to live for more then a few days, maybe a few month, without being killed, eaten, raped, tortured just for lulz, enslaved or bluffed into selling his soul.




> Oh, certainly. Plenty of settlements, divine realms, pockets... now, the caveat to that is, most of these are on Air, Water, and Earth. Fire has comparatively far fewer, the Para-Elemental Planes even less, the Quasi-Elemental Planes next to none, and Positive and Negative are both pretty horrid with the exception of some rare few magically protected sanctuary sites.


Sorry for again being unclear, I hoped to see something interesting about specific settlements. I know there is a huge domed city on the Plane of Water, so I hoped to see something about other similar places on other Planes.

----------


## Eldan

A good example for a safe-ish fiendish place is Broken Reach, a town of a few thousand inhabitants (mostly demons and tieflings) in the Abyss. It's a center of commerce and has strictly enforced non-violence laws.

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## enderlord99

> I'd never expect fiends to be actually nice, they ARE fiends after all. When I said tolerable conditions I meant: is there a place where a mortal would be allowed to live for more then a few days, maybe a few month, without being killed, eaten, raped, tortured just for lulz, enslaved or bluffed into selling his soul.


There might be a few places in Pandemonium where those things are _less likely_ to happen, but on any part of any lower plane... they'll probably still happen.

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## Bohandas

What happens when one half of a dvati goes to a plane where time passes differently?

I'm thinking that maybe they stay synchronized with each other but become desynchronized in time, but it's also plausible that they wind up in a mental state where time seems to be moving rapidly or slowly, or that time passes for both of them at the average of the two rates, or maybe they just die from shock. What do you think?

----------


## afroakuma

> What happens when one half of a dvati goes to a plane where time passes differently?
> 
> I'm thinking that maybe they stay synchronized with each other but become desynchronized in time, but it's also plausible that they wind up in a mental state where time seems to be moving rapidly or slowly, or that time passes for both of them at the average of the two rates, or maybe they just die from shock. What do you think?


Most likely it would be like experiencing a differential in bandwidth - the twin on the faster plane experiences lag in communicating with the other twin, while the twin on the slower plane is overwhelmed by too much signal. I would imagine it has the potential to be quite maddening to both of them, to say nothing of the other concern that one twin will be physiologically older than the other, as age does not share across bodies.

----------


## Thurbane

I may just not be looking hard enough, but...is there any info on which areas of the plane of Earth (or other planes) are particularly rich in rare/valuable materials, and what kind of rare/valuable materials may be present? I'm assuming, at the very least, that the plane of Earth should have some pretty sizable deposits of gold, platinum, gems etc.

Also, any guides or ideas on what kind of profits (gp/day) could be made if one were to find a particularly rich deposit of something valuable?

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## Edreyn

I was waiting, hoping to get some info on interesting settlements on Inner or Outer Planes (see my older questions), but if there are no specific places, then never mind. Thank you in any case.

Now, more to discuss.

1) Many wizards summon evil outsiders. Also, in some cases, people summon good outsiders. What about Modrons and Slaads? Are there any cases where a wizard will want to summon them, and not good or evil creaturers?

I obviously can imagine cases where one would want to summon a modron - to make some complex calculations. For example predict the potential outcome of some important action, like declaring a war. In our world, people use complex computer algorithms for this, in a Planescape world, people might use a Modron for this. Or to invent\construct a powerful weapon of some new type.

And as for Slaads (Slaadi?), well it's less associating with something, but I imagine that they can be useful, if one wants to cause a lot of chaos, but with fewer casualties as if he would use a demon.

2) If a person from Prime summons someone from Outer Plane, can he only summon outsiders, or the mortals can be summoned too?
For example, if an adventurer got trapped on Lower Planes, can his friends use summoning spell to pull him out?

3) More about the (in)famous Carceri. As I understand, being a Lower Plane, it must be touched by a Blood War. With the scarcity of portals around, how do "participants" get in or out? Will the plane itself prevent them from leaving?

4) Is it possible, that a prisoner of Carceri will attempt to join an army of baatezu\tanar'ri passing by, to use them to leave the plane? Even if he will desert right after stepping through the portal? What do locals fear more - staying prisoners of Carceri, or participating in a Blood War?

5) If a prisoner of Carceri somehow finds a way to become more powerful then the one who sent him there, will he actually be able to escape? Will gehreleths pursue him in this case?\

6) Are less evil Planes - Acheron and Pandemonium also touched by Blood War? If they are, how does Blood War affects Free-For-All constant wars on Acheron?

7) Is it only my imagination, or all the Lawful Planes, with exception of Celestia are extremely unfriendly, in some aspects even more then Chaotic ones?
Remember when I once asked why the Carceri is so bad? Now I wonder why Arcadia is considered even partly Good. It has a good climate yes, but people there seem to be VERY unfriendly to outsiders. In the best case they tell visitors to finish their business and leave, sometimes male leave right away, and in the worst case attack. On Mechanus locals won't turn everyone away, but also will give no mercy to someone who breaks a law, even if it seems insignificant.

As for Chaotic, Ysgard seems to be quite welcoming to those who are brave, and on Limbo all the person needs is to adapt, and has the chance to build his own paradise literally with his will. Limbo also has some friendly settlements, like a village of halflings.

8) Gate towns on Outlands, specifically with gates to Evil planes. Considering how bad they are, why they have so large populations? Larger then cities with gates to nicer places, with few exceptions. Unlike petitioners, those people can choose where to live. Why they don't flee en-masse or why they settle there in the first place? I believe the majority CAN choose.

----------


## Tzardok

> 2) If a person from Prime summons someone from Outer Plane, can he only summon outsiders, or the mortals can be summoned too?
> For example, if an adventurer got trapped on Lower Planes, can his friends use summoning spell to pull him out?


Summoning is useless for that, as summoning spells are temporary. Calling, on the other hand, could be useful, but I'm not sure. I think you can call only things that are not native to your own plane, but... *shrug*




> 3) More about the (in)famous Carceri. As I understand, being a Lower Plane, it must be touched by a Blood War. With the scarcity of portals around, how do "participants" get in or out? Will the plane itself prevent them from leaving?


Besides the possibility to use the Outlands to just walk around Carceri, I imagine that the armies of the Blood War have pretty good maps of the most reliable ways to get out. Also, the Maerenoloths aren't the only people that can travel on the Styx, they just are the best at it. So fleets of devils and demons just passing through by way of the Styx are possible. Carceri most likely won't get a grip on them as they are already "owned" by their homeplanes.




> 4) Is it possible, that a prisoner of Carceri will attempt to join an army of baatezu\tanar'ri passing by, to use them to leave the plane? Even if he will desert right after stepping through the portal? What do locals fear more - staying prisoners of Carceri, or participating in a Blood War?


As with everything else regarding Carceri's prisoners, the answer is: no, they wouldn't. It would mean that they needed to accept that they needed help to escape, and they hate that.
This is just one of the rare cases where that is the smart decision, as fighting in the Blood War is a very good way to become very quickly very dead.




> 5) If a prisoner of Carceri somehow finds a way to become more powerful then the one who sent him there, will he actually be able to escape? Will gehreleths pursue him in this case?\


Possibly. I read a story blurb once about some guy who travelled to the lowest depths of Carceri while becoming stronger and found a gate there that allowed him to escape. He was telling the story to the one that imprisoned him while killing him, so...




> 6) Are less evil Planes - Acheron and Pandemonium also touched by Blood War? If they are, how does Blood War affects Free-For-All constant wars on Acheron?


That happens only rarely. Generally when the Blood War reaches Baator/the Abyss, the invaders want to get deeper and eradicate their enemies, not go beyond. It's a bit like if Mexico was at war with the US and an invasion force teared through the States, only to reach Canada and start fighting there.




> 7) Is it only my imagination, or all the Lawful Planes, with exception of Celestia are extremely unfriendly, in some aspects even more then Chaotic ones?
> Remember when I once asked why the Carceri is so bad? Now I wonder why Arcadia is considered even partly Good. It has a good climate yes, but people there seem to be VERY unfriendly to outsiders. In the best case they tell visitors to finish their business and leave, sometimes male leave right away, and in the worst case attack. On Mechanus locals won't turn everyone away, but also will give no mercy to someone who breaks a law, even if it seems insignificant.
> 
> As for Chaotic, Ysgard seems to be quite welcoming to those who are brave, and on Limbo all the person needs is to adapt, and has the chance to build his own paradise literally with his will. Limbo also has some friendly settlements, like a village of halflings.


I generally do not see your problems. Arcadia is a nice place to live, if you like routine and have no problems with following the law. People do their job, you do your job, when a war happens you get your two weeks notice so that you can keep away from the batttlefield and people can adjust their business to it. Sounds paradisical to me. The only problem is that adventurers tend to be disruptive by their very nature, which explains why the locals are generally not happy about them.

Ysgard is much less nice. Yes, everywhere is adventure and challenge. But what if you _don't_ like hotter summers and harsher winters than possible? What if you _don't_ want to climb an impossibly high mountain just to visit your friend in the neighbouring village for a cup of tea? What if you don't want to walk uphill in both directions in the snow to ply your wares? Ysgard is fun for adventures, but not for normal people. Arcadia is the other way round.

Mechanus compares favourably to Limbo too. Yes, Mechanus is disorientating at first, but if you understand the regularities by which the environment works, you can get anywhere quickly. The natives are like that, too. You learn and follow the laws, and no one bothers you. You learn how the people work, and they are predictable. And I'm pretty sure that nowhere is learning the rules forbidden, so no one will decry for asking before you do something.

Limbo, compared to that, is _Hell_. You fall through a whirling mess of fire, water, earth and air, see and hear things emerging from and disapearing into the primal chaos while your magic palys merry havoc. Most people lack the training and/or will power to truly gain control of a part of Limbo for longer than a few minutes, and the natives range from gruff and unappraochable (Githzerai), to completely unpredictable (Slaadi). When talking to a Modron about going home, it will make you fill an application in triplicate. When asking a Slaad, he could lead you to a portal, but he could just as likely kidnap you, put you into a dress and play tea party or (just as likely) eat you from the toenails up.




> 8) Gate towns on Outlands, specifically with gates to Evil planes. Considering how bad they are, why they have so large populations? Larger then cities with gates to nicer places, with few exceptions. Unlike petitioners, those people can choose where to live. Why they don't flee en-masse or why they settle there in the first place? I believe the majority CAN choose.


I am not quite sure, but I think the majority of inhabitants in the Gate Towns are petioners that were neutral in life, but had an tendency to another alignment. So if you generally were neutral, but consistently did occasional chaotic evil things, you would land in Plague-Mort. Combine that with the fact that at least a sizeable minority of those living in a Gate Town want the town to shift to the other side by making it more of the respective alignment, and you have a good reason to live there. (Also there are a whole bunch of people who want the Town to stay where it is, thank you very much, and those a) need to be there to counterbalance, and b) are counterbalancing the badness (or goodness), making it less horrible than it could be.)

----------


## Edreyn

This part:




> I generally do not see your problems. Arcadia is a nice place to live, if you like routine and have no probelms with following the law. People do their, you do your job, when a war happens you get your two weeks notice so that you can keep away from the batttlefield and people can adjust their business to it. Sounds paradisical to me. The only problem is that adventurers tend to be disruptive by their very nature, which explains why the locals are generally not happy about them.


Again, it seems we imagine this place quite differently.

Also, you are talking about living there, and I am about visiting it, or perhaps settling there while being a mortal and born elsewhere.

One of lore books, the one about Planes of Law describe locals as very unfriendly to outsiders.
I have it in Russian, so can't give exact quotes, but here's what it says in my words, translated back to English:

A) Hostility level is about the same as on Ysgard.
B) Locals try to *force* everyone around to submit to *their's* point of view about Law and Good.
C) It's recommended that those of not LG alignment not to visit here at all.
- Chaotic good are tolerated while they uphold the law
- Neutral good are getting a suggestion to finish their business and leave.
- Evil are attacked on sight
- Neutral are being escorted to the closest portal
D) Arcadians actively root out settlements formed by non LG creatures.

Up to me, this is a plane of fanatics. While technically, they fit into the DnD identification of Lawful-Lawful-Good, by our world standards locals are really nationalistic and cold-hearted. 

Some time ago, one man posted a thread asking what Upper Plane other's would choose as their own paradise. I chose Bytopia, and there were some others that chose it too. Bytopia is also LG, but with more Good, than Law. Arcadia is the other way around. This difference between Planes that are so close to each other is somewhat... scary.

I, of course, won't compare Arcadia to Acheron and Baator, but its populace is obviously less friendly then people from Celestia and even Mechanus.

As for Mechanus




> You learn and follow the laws, and no one bothers you.


Again, the lore does say, that a visitor can be executed for breaking a law he wasn't aware about, and that even may seem senseless. Like screaming or crying in an inappropriate place or time.
Many if not all actions require to be allowed in advance, again it might be something completely generic.
Some people are even afraid to speak, because it can increase chaos, they use gestures instead.

Again, quote from the book I have on Russian: it's suggested that a visitor brings a 300-volumed "minimal" codex of laws. 

Yes, if you ask about laws, locals will answer. But can you be sure that talking to local in this specific place and time isn't a crime that demands a capital punishment?




> I am not quite sure, but I think the majority of inhabitants in the Gate Towns are petioners that were neutral in life, but had an tendency to another alignment.


Don't know, I actually imagined the majority of Outlands cities inhabitants as mortals.

----------


## Tzardok

Now, I can't tell you how accurate all this is, as I haven't read Planes of Law in ages and am drawing mostly on 3.x sources. (I find it kind of strange that Arcadians treat chaotic good people better than neutral good, but whatever.)

The main point is that every plane has both good and bad sides, and any description may focus more on the positive or the negative. (Yes, even Baator can be described positively: "It's a place where the ambitious and cunning can rise to the top and enjoy the fruits of their power;" and Elysium (especially Elysium) can be described negatively: "It's being blissed out on drugs forever as a place." Your descriptions of the lawful planes stressed the bad parts while mine stressed the things I see as good, while with chaos we did it the other way round.

A few specific counterpoints: I do not think that my descriptions only deal with the denizens and not immigrants or visitors. An immigrant that is willing to fit itself into the Arcadian society will be treated as one of them, just as it is in many other places. The harshness of Ysgard is also something that affects natives and foreigners equally.

Arcadia has different nations with different laws and presumably different interpretations of their alignment. That's part of why they have their wars, after all. If you don't like one specific interpretation, maybe another is more to your liking.

Celestia is not that much better than Arcadia in it's "everyone should be lawful good" ways. For example there is a city in Lunia, ruled by Lamassu, that doesn't want visitors to leave. Wouldn't it be so much better to be educated in the ways of lawful good while staying there forever? It's for your own good that we keep you here.

----------


## hamishspence

> Now, I can't tell you how accurate all this is, as I haven't read Planes of Law in ages and am drawing mostly on 3.x sources. (I find it kind of strange that Arcadians treat chaotic good people better than neutral good, but whatever.)


The exact phrasing in Manual of The Planes 3.0 (page 130-131)

_Using their abilities to discern the alignment of all they meet, einheriar make it their business to police the plane. If they catch any nonlawful or nongood creatures, they have three possible courses of action. Chaotic good or neutral good visitors are tolerated so long as they follow the laws of Arcadia. Those who are truly neutral are asked to finish their business and leave. Those who are tainted with evil in any aspect are immediately and remorselessly attacked._

So, it's only those who are TN (or, arguably, CN, since those are "truly neutral" on the moral axis) that are asked to leave. NG people can stay if they behave.

----------


## afroakuma

> I may just not be looking hard enough, but...is there any info on which areas of the plane of Earth (or other planes) are particularly rich in rare/valuable materials, and what kind of rare/valuable materials may be present? I'm assuming, at the very least, that the plane of Earth should have some pretty sizable deposits of gold, platinum, gems etc.


Being an infinite plane, there are endless areas where veins of valuable metals and the occasional gem crop up. Generally if you are in the market for gems, though, you would want the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Minerals.




> Also, any guides or ideas on what kind of profits (gp/day) could be made if one were to find a particularly rich deposit of something valuable?


You'd still have to extract it and get it to market, and arguably that is more hazardous to do on an Inner Plane than on the Prime, as the locals are much more in tune with the supply and will get very very cranky about having it mined and carted off. 




> I was waiting, hoping to get some info on interesting settlements on Inner or Outer Planes (see my older questions), but if there are no specific places, then never mind. Thank you in any case.


You asked an open-ended question looking for a large-volume answer. Those take time. I will get to it when I get to it. 




> 1) Many wizards summon evil outsiders. Also, in some cases, people summon good outsiders. What about Modrons and Slaads? Are there any cases where a wizard will want to summon them, and not good or evil creaturers?


Certainly, but less common by and large.




> 2) If a person from Prime summons someone from Outer Plane, can he only summon outsiders, or the mortals can be summoned too?
> For example, if an adventurer got trapped on Lower Planes, can his friends use summoning spell to pull him out?


They cannot. A summoning spell would not move anyone, nor could it even address a random traveler on a Lower Plane. You want a _gate_ spell for that purpose.




> 3) More about the (in)famous Carceri. As I understand, being a Lower Plane, it must be touched by a Blood War. With the scarcity of portals around, how do "participants" get in or out? Will the plane itself prevent them from leaving?


There are plenty of portals on the top layer, and the fiends use them en masse. Carceri has precious little interest in the average fiend from another plane and the gehreleths don't bother policing Blood War battlegrounds most of the time, unless one of their existing prisoners tries to get clever.




> 4) Is it possible, that a prisoner of Carceri will attempt to join an army of baatezu\tanar'ri passing by, to use them to leave the plane? Even if he will desert right after stepping through the portal? What do locals fear more - staying prisoners of Carceri, or participating in a Blood War?


See above, and remember that the locals don't *fear* Carceri, they *resent* it - and their suspicion and resentment of getting involved in the cause of an extraplanar army would be far greater, because that is how Carceri gets you.




> 5) If a prisoner of Carceri somehow finds a way to become more powerful then the one who sent him there, will he actually be able to escape? Will gehreleths pursue him in this case?


Remember that it is not just about power compared to some individual or group, but also the personal growth required to get free of your resentment, suspicion, and spite. That kind of growth is much harder to attain on the plane, especially as so many focus on the first kind.




> 6) Are less evil Planes - Acheron and Pandemonium also touched by Blood War? If they are, how does Blood War affects Free-For-All constant wars on Acheron?


Almost never. There is no tactical advantage to be had from it, and each of them is uniquely unfriendly to the Blood War in their own way - Acheron through the other wars already going on, Pandemonium through the maddening emptiness and killing winds.




> 7) Is it only my imagination, or all the Lawful Planes, with exception of Celestia are extremely unfriendly, in some aspects even more then Chaotic ones?


All planes are challenging in some way. Lawful planes have some expectations of your personal comportment, in exchange for having rules of some stripe about how you are to be treated. Chaotic planes have neither, for good and ill.




> Remember when I once asked why the Carceri is so bad? Now I wonder why Arcadia is considered even partly Good. It has a good climate yes, but people there seem to be VERY unfriendly to outsiders. In the best case they tell visitors to finish their business and leave, sometimes male leave right away, and in the worst case attack. On Mechanus locals won't turn everyone away, but also will give no mercy to someone who breaks a law, even if it seems insignificant.


One does not have to be friendly to be good, nor welcoming. Arcadia is peopled with those who work toward good purposes but are often unwilling to stray from that goal for the sake of being more broadly good, which is why it's more toward the LN side than Celestia is.




> As for Chaotic, Ysgard seems to be quite welcoming to those who are brave, and on Limbo all the person needs is to adapt, and has the chance to build his own paradise literally with his will. Limbo also has some friendly settlements, like a village of halflings.


Ysgard is also the plane where anyone can and will challenge you to single combat to prove your worth. Sure, you won't die, but the point of Ysgard is that you don't settle. You can't merely be brave and be accepted in Ysgard, you have to prove yourself. Life is not calm and there is no contentment. As for Limbo, yes, you can shape your own little bubble by imposing your will on it, but that has nothing to do with Good or Evil, and the plane is always ready to swallow you into the roaring churning chaos if your will falters. It is arguably one of the least friendly places, because each individual asserts their own will to create their bastion of safety, and trying to band together with others risks imperiling the lot of you when divisions arise and your bubbles no longer overlap cleanly. 

All comes down to personal taste, really.




> 8) Gate towns on Outlands, specifically with gates to Evil planes. Considering how bad they are, why they have so large populations? Larger then cities with gates to nicer places, with few exceptions. Unlike petitioners, those people can choose where to live. Why they don't flee en-masse or why they settle there in the first place? I believe the majority CAN choose.


We would have to look at them individually.

 Bedlam is publicly accepting of residents of an evil sort, and the character of the place makes it unlikely to slide into its attached plane. It also attracts those who want to provide services for travelers coming or going from Pandemonium, which can be an attractive proposition as the bleak and horrid plane tends to come with *lots* of needs for travelers. Then of course there is the Bleak Cabal, which happens to particularly like the town.

 Curst is Carceri in miniature, a town of exiles and vengeful types who find it hard to establish themselves anywhere else. The tone of the place is that it makes for an effective base of operations from which to plot revenge, since it attracts all sorts of foul and malefic beings looking for someone to lash out at. It's not one of the bigger towns as a result

 Hopeless attracts the dispossessed and despondent, or rather collects them as they fall out of other societies. At least they know that nobody else around is living a life any happier than their own, which can be a certain kind of cold comfort.

 Plague-Mort is a pretty active trade town, as laws are minimal and opportunism abounds. People come with a purpose, which is the kind of thing an enterprising sort can capitalize on. It may be awful, but it's awful in a way that works for the locals.

 Ribcage is a tiefling-majority settlement, which on its own is unique, but it is also a town that is all about power in all its forms. Everyone works hard to accrue power in some kind or other, and the fact that it can be established in the town with consistency means that the town itself has value beyond its borders, kind of like an outsize bank of influence and secrets, not to mention actual money. Furthermore, Ribcage actively disincentivizes fiendish visitors, which makes it technically safer than other settlements of a dark bent. For these reasons, it is the most populous gate-town.

 Rigus is a place where those seeking discipline can belong, as long as they are willing to deal with the local interpretation of it. It is also surprisingly tolerant of outsiders, who are marked to show their unfamiliarity with the town's laws, and yet again a place with few fiends. If one has to conduct business on the dark side, Rigus is a place where you can get it done under the rigorous protection of local law enforcement, provided you leave as soon as you are done.

 Torch is the place for opportunists, all of whom think they can get the best of the rest. Less inclined to hard work than the people of Ribcage, the people of Torch still want to get ahead by any means necessary, and in Torch they get the best of both worlds, for whatever that's worth. It's still one of the smaller gate-towns to the Lower Planes.

The question might better be posed not as to why these towns are large, but why many of the Upper Planar gate-towns are small. Leaving aside the fact that many in the good-aligned towns *want* to go to their connected plane, as opposed to the evil-aligned towns where most of the denizens want to steer clear, we again should break down how and why this happens.

 Faunel is a town for people who don't really want a town, which is why it has so few formal residents.

 Fortitude is just not a pleasant place to be. It's not a hub for commerce, it's infested by the Harmonium, and it's not like the connected plane wants you in it any more than the town does unless you already belong there. Since there aren't even meaningful ulterior motives for setting up shop in the town, outsiders just generally don't.

 Glorium is a stopover for people who want to pick a fight to prove their mettle. They have no interest in becoming a hub of commerce, or really in having long-term visitors at all. To put it simply, they have little use for being an actual town, which is why there are so few people, and their pride prevents them from establishing fortifications or other structures that would require maintenance and staffing.

 Sylvania is actually a pretty nice place to be, but it's *a lot* - a nonstop party of noise and sensation, and it's hard to live that life all the time. People go in and out regularly, but the actual resident numbers reflect that most are either looking to go to Arborea properly, or just need moments of cooldown in their lives that the town will not offer them.

As for Tradegate, Ecstasy, and Excelsior, each one has a substantial population. 




> Up to me, this is a plane of fanatics. While technically, they fit into the DnD identification of Lawful-Lawful-Good, by our world standards locals are really nationalistic and cold-hearted.


Fanatics, no, xenophobes, yes. Arcadians aren't all crazy, but they definitely dislike outsiders who don't fit in.

As for Mechanus, it is not that it is friendlier than Arcadia, it's that by and large you matter less to it in all things. Arcadians will ask you to state your business and judge you for your answer, but, like... when modrons are marching, *people die from being trampled to death*. Inevitables don't care about the shadings of your actions. Formians will do with you as they please. On Arcadia, you are asked to stop being a square peg so that they can jam you into a round hole. On Mechanus, you will be dragged to the nearest square hole and mortared in.

----------


## Bohandas

> Ysgard is much less nice. Yes, everywhere is adventure and challenge. But what if you _don't_ like hotter summers and harsher winters than possible? What if you _don't_ want to climb an impossibly high mountain just to visit your friend in the neighbouring village for a cup of tea? What if you don't want to walk uphill in both directions in the snow to ply your wares? Ysgard is fun for adventures, but not for normal people. Arcadia is the other way round.


Ysgard also has that free resurrection thing going on, which makes it _a lot_ easier to be adventurous there, even if you're just some random civilian.

----------


## Bohandas

> Now a new question:
> 
> 1) Are there any pleasant places on Inner Planes (to Prime mortals)?


The City of Glass on the Plane of Water and the Djinn settlements on the Plane of Air

----------


## Tzardok

> Ysgard also has that free resurrection thing going on, which makes it _a lot_ easier to be adventurous there, even if you're just some random civilian.


Counterpoint: Being killed hurts.  :Small Tongue: 

I seriously forgot about that part, which makes the challenges of Ysgard more survivable, but certainly no less annoying. (Especially if there is a respawn point.  :Small Big Grin: )

----------


## Bohandas

Speaking of resurrection, does time spent dead count against a creature's lifespan?




> Counterpoint: Being killed hurts.


Isn't Ysgard also overflowing with booze

----------


## afroakuma

> Speaking of resurrection, does time spent dead count against a creature's lifespan?


Nope. letterslettersletters

----------


## Bartmanhomer

What was the relationship between Boccob and Wee Jas? Were they friends, enemies, or lovers?  :Confused:

----------


## Tzardok

> Isn't Ysgard also overflowing with booze


Good point. I'll add "Drunkards everywhere" to my list of complaints about Ysgard.  :Small Amused: 




> What was the relationship between Boccob and Wee Jas? Were they friends, enemies, or lovers?


They are gods of magic in two different pantheons on the same world. Combine that with Boccob's infamous indifference, and the closest relationship you'll get is something like neighbours that work in the same job and don't see each other often.

----------


## Bartmanhomer

> They are gods of magic in two different pantheons on the same world. Combine that with Boccob's infamous indifference, and the closest relationship you'll get is something like neighbours that work in the same job and don't see each other often.


Ok. Thank you.  :Smile:

----------


## hamishspence

While they _were_ of different pantheons, enough time has passed that the pantheons have basically mixed:


https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Human

_The pantheons of humanity are vast and varied. In the Flanaess, humans normally worship a mixture of gods of Flan, Oeridian, and Suel origin together with a smattering of Baklunish gods and a host of deities considered "common" because they are prevalent in most areas regardless of their history of ethnic settlement. As most human groups in the Flanaess are long-since mixed, so are their gods, and the same settlements will contain temples and shrines to a variety of deities regardless of their pantheon of origin._


Wee Jas's entry in _Deities and Demigods_ says of Boccob _"She respects him, but they do not have an alliance"_. Boccob's entry doesn't say anything about her.

----------


## Bohandas

> While they _were_ of different pantheons, enough time has passed that the pantheons have basically mixed:
> 
> 
> https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Human
> 
> _The pantheons of humanity are vast and varied. In the Flanaess, humans normally worship a mixture of gods of Flan, Oeridian, and Suel origin together with a smattering of Baklunish gods and a host of deities considered "common" because they are prevalent in most areas regardless of their history of ethnic settlement. As most human groups in the Flanaess are long-since mixed, so are their gods, and the same settlements will contain temples and shrines to a variety of deities regardless of their pantheon of origin._
> 
> 
> Wee Jas's entry in _Deities and Demigods_ says of Boccob _"She respects him, but they do not have an alliance"_. Boccob's entry doesn't say anything about her.


Which brings up another question, how does the concept of "....gods of Flan, Oeridian, and Suel origin...." even  make sense in a world where the gods are real and for the most part started out as gods (with the exception of Cuthbert, Vecna, Iuz, and the Company of Seven)

----------


## afroakuma

> Which brings up another question, how does the concept of "....gods of Flan, Oeridian, and Suel origin...." even  make sense in a world where the gods are real and for the most part started out as gods (with the exception of Cuthbert, Vecna, Iuz, and the Company of Seven)


Those peoples originally populated different lands and had limited contact with one another until the great migrations shoved them together. Until that time, they were the pantheons of associated peoples, cognate to the Olympian, Pharaonic, and Norse pantheons each coexisting on the same world without comingling.

Oerth isn't the only world where this has taken place, either - Toril is absolutely lousy with pantheons, and the Faerûnian pantheon is the cobbled-together bits and pieces of a shocking number of other faiths.

The Baklunish pantheon was characterized by impersonal deities, forces remote from the world. Istus, goddess of fate, is the greatest deity known from this faith, with Geshtai the river goddess, Mouqol the trade deity, Xan Yae the shadow goddess, and Zuoken the monastic god among the more well-known. Al'Akbar and Azor'alq are lesser deities who typify heroes of myth and legend raised to divinity.

The Flan pantheon are much more akin to mortal figures, in the sense of having more interpersonal relationships and personalities. Social deities such as Allitur, Berei, Myhriss and Zodal pair with great figures of nature such as Beory, the Earth Dragon, and Obad-hai. 

The Oeridian pantheon contains families of deities and a variety of figures who represent aspects of nature rather than broad generalizations - the seasonal deities join deities of mining, stars, roads, agriculture... by far and away the Oeridian pantheon has proved most enduring, in no small part due to figures of morality and social order such as Heironeous, Hextor, Rao, Pholtus, and Zilchus.

The Suel pantheon is an interesting mix, without any greater deities to its name but forming a blend of distinctive nature deities (Fortubo, Jascar, Llerg, Xerbo etc.) and gods of individual pursuit, goals, and accomplishments (Kord, Wee Jas, Bralm, Syrul etc.) 

There are also other human pantheons on Oerth - the Touv and Olman pantheons. These never mixed with the broader pantheon and are regional and limited.

----------


## Tzardok

> While they _were_ of different pantheons, enough time has passed that the pantheons have basically mixed:
> 
> 
> https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Human
> 
> _The pantheons of humanity are vast and varied. In the Flanaess, humans normally worship a mixture of gods of Flan, Oeridian, and Suel origin together with a smattering of Baklunish gods and a host of deities considered "common" because they are prevalent in most areas regardless of their history of ethnic settlement. As most human groups in the Flanaess are long-since mixed, so are their gods, and the same settlements will contain temples and shrines to a variety of deities regardless of their pantheon of origin._
> 
> 
> Wee Jas's entry in _Deities and Demigods_ says of Boccob _"She respects him, but they do not have an alliance"_. Boccob's entry doesn't say anything about her.


Ah. I didn't know that; I've been assuming that treating them as part of the same pantheon was solely a 3.x "standard pantheon" thing.

----------


## Thurbane

> Wee Jas's entry in _Deities and Demigods_ says of Boccob _"She respects him, but they do not have an alliance"_. Boccob's entry doesn't say anything about her.


Similar in the Living Greyhawk deities document.

Under Wee Jas it says _"She respects Boccob, dislikes the beauty goddess Myhriss, and ignores most other deities."_. Boccob's entry doesn't mention her at all.

----------


## enderlord99

Which Outer Plane (and layer, ideally) best fits these lyrics?  I'm guessing Agathion, but I'm not sure.  It's Minauros.

----------


## hamishspence

> Those peoples originally populated different lands and had limited contact with one another until the great migrations shoved them together. Until that time, they were the pantheons of associated peoples, cognate to the Olympian, Pharaonic, and Norse pantheons each coexisting on the same world without comingling.
> 
> Oerth isn't the only world where this has taken place, either - Toril is absolutely lousy with pantheons, and the Faerûnian pantheon is the cobbled-together bits and pieces of a shocking number of other faiths.


Yup. The process is still ongoing - the "Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons" are beginning to lose deities to the greater Faerunian one. Hoar the Doombringer used to be Untheric, but is now Faerunian. Sharess used to be the Mulhorandi deity Bast, but is now Faerunian. And so forth.

----------


## enderlord99

> Yup. The process is still ongoing - the "Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons" are beginning to lose deities to the greater Faerunian one. Hoar the Doombringer used to be Untheric, but is now Faerunian. Sharess used to be the Mulhorandi deity Bast, but is now Faerunian. And so forth.


I'd always assumed (for reasons I can't explicitly state here) that Bast was part of the Pharanoic pantheon, rather than the Mulhorandi one.

...actually...

How often are there multiple deities with the exact same name, if ever?

----------


## Tzardok

> Yup. The process is still ongoing - the "Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons" are beginning to lose deities to the greater Faerunian one. Hoar the Doombringer used to be Untheric, but is now Faerunian. Sharess used to be the Mulhorandi deity Bast, but is now Faerunian. And so forth.


Well, Unther won't lose any more deities, on account of their pantheon being dead.  :Small Amused: 




> I'd always assumed (for reasons I can't explicitly state here) that Bast was part of the Pharanoic pantheon, rather than the Mulhorandi one.
> 
> ...actually...
> 
> How often are there multiple deities with the exact same name, if ever?


The Mulhorandi pantheon _is_ (or used to be) the Pharaonic pantheon.

The old Imaskari kidnapped whole peoples (which worshipped the Mesopotamian and the Pharaonic pantheon, respectively) from other worlds to serve as slaves and errected a barrier to keep their gods from following them. After some time those two pantheons circumvented the barrier by sending in avatars and giving them autonomy, and those avatars freed the slave races, founded the nations of Mulhorand (Pharaonian) and Unther (Mesopotamian) and ruled them as god-kings. That only ended when Ao dissolved the barrier at the end of the Time of Troubles, which allowed the avatars to return to the Outer Planes.

Sharess used to be Bast, and Hoar used to be Assuran, but the two of them are changed too much to be compatible with their originator, so they became new gods.

That, I think, also answers your question about deities sharing names. Either they are two deities that used to be one (I _think_ Tyr and other Faerûnian gods that used to be interlopers have split off that way), or a deity claims to be another one, usually for reasons of subverting them (see also "Shar and every little thing she does").

----------


## enderlord99

> The Mulhorandi pantheon _is_ (or used to be) the Pharaonic pantheon.
> 
> The old Imaskarni kidnapped whole peoples (which worshipped the Mesopotamian and the Pharaonic pantheon, respectively) from other worlds to serve as slaves and errected a barrier to keep their gods from following them. After some time those two pantheons circumvented the barrier by sending in avatars and giving them autonomy, and those avatars freed the slave races, founded the nations of Mulhorand (Pharaonian) and Unther (Mesopotamian) and ruled them as god-kings. That only ended when Ao dissolved the barrier at the end of the Time of Troubles, which allowed the avatars to return to the Outer Planes.
> 
> Sharess used to be Bast, and Hoar used to be Assuran, but the two of them are changed too much to be compatible with their originator, so they became new gods.
> 
> That, I think, also answers your question about deities sharing names. Either they are two deities that used to be one (I _think_ Tyr and other Faerûnian gods that used to be interlopers have split off that way), or a deity claims to be another one, usually for reasons of subverting them (see also "Shar and every little thing she does").


Oh, okay.  That makes sense.

----------


## hamishspence

Tiamat and Bahamat might also count as Untheric pantheon as well as Dragon pantheon - or at least, "having Untheric aliases". Bahamut's Untheric alias was Marduk, but after being killed and then coming back to life as a "celestial paragon" rather than a full demigod or higher, his "Marduk" identity was regarded as dead and no longer worshipped.

----------


## Edreyn

As always, thanks everyone for answers. Will write if I think of something interesting to discuss.

----------


## Efrate

Tiamat in Faerun is also the Red Knight.  I believe thats to imaskari/mulhorandi.

----------


## Tzardok

> Tiamat in Faerun is also the Red Knight.  I believe thats to imaskari/mulhorandi.


Uh, what?  :Small Confused: 

The Red Knight is a mortal that ascended after the Time of Troubles to demigodhood through Tempus' favor. She didn't even live close to Mulhorand or Unther. She's got nothing to do with Tiamat.

----------


## Cicciograna

I think they're referring to Tchazzar. Who was Chessentan, not Mulhorandi/Imaskari.

----------


## hamishspence

Plus he's not a mythological deity - he's a dragon who managed to get worshipped, got eaten by Tiamat, and then resurrected by her and sent back to Faerun.

----------


## Bohandas

> EDIT:
> As an aside, I wonder whether it is intentional that the Queen, as described in the module, looks exactly like Ursula the Sea Witch from Disney's _The Little Mermaid_ which came out seven years earlier (lower body of a cephalopod, upper body of a fat lady, and blue skin)


On a similar note. I just realized that Sibriex demons may be patterned on the giant hologram head from _The Wizard of Oz_. They're huge floating disembodied heads thay traffick in organs.

----------


## Tzardok

Something I've been meaning to ask about is Apep. Deities and Demigods describes him as a neutral evil demigod, while Fiendish Codex 1 and the Planescape sources mention him as a demonic... thing that is imprisoned in the Darkwells.

How accurate are those two things? Is Apep a god or not? If not, what is he? Could he escape the Wells if he ascended to godhood? And, no matter if he is a deity or not, can he grant spells from the Wells? Is the neutral evil alignment accurate? Questions over questions...

----------


## Dalmosh

Hello, I've been interested by the mention in FC1 of a Demon Lord called Alrunes the Soothing Spirit, whose portfolio is "sisterhood and protection".

Eric Mona and James Jacobs subsequently stated that this was just an odd throw-away reference to give future authors something a bit different to work with in the Abyss.

If you were to expand on Alrunes (and her cult), while both keeping these themes, and retaining an alignment and philosophy suitable for an exemplar of CE, what direction would you go in?

Most of the ideas I have end up feeling a bit too NE, though I guess something involving Unholy Scions might fit.

----------


## Clistenes

I know you can't be a member of two factions, or of two sects, or of a faction and a sect, but, can you be a member of both a Sect or Faction and of the Planewalker's Guild?

I mean, the Planewalker's Guild isn't an ideology focused group, but a very practical organization, focused on exploring the Planes and gathering information... I can see a member of the Fraternity of Order joining them for the sake of learning about the workings of the Planes, or of a Sensate joining for the sake of experiencing new stuff, or a member of the Mind's Eye for the sake of finding new challenges...

And then you have some of the less demanding, less rigid organizations like the Guardians or the Free League... The Free League don't even see themselves as a Faction, why wouldn't they join the Guild? And I doubt the Guardians would have any objection to the Guild's activities...

----------


## Bohandas

> Hello, I've been interested by the mention in FC1 of a Demon Lord called Alrunes the Soothing Spirit, whose portfolio is "sisterhood and protection".
> 
> Eric Mona and James Jacobs subsequently stated that this was just an odd throw-away reference to give future authors something a bit different to work with in the Abyss.
> 
> If you were to expand on Alrunes (and her cult), while both keeping these themes, and retaining an alignment and philosophy suitable for an exemplar of CE, what direction would you go in?


I can think of three ways to go with this:

 One way is for her to be focused on finger-pointing and revenge, where "protection" means becoming just as bad as whoever hurt you and taking potshots at anyone you don;t trust

Two is for her to be running an all-female mafia, with "protection" being a euphemism for extortion

The third possibility is that the cult is an exaggerated dysfunctional caricature of the sorority system in colleges whose goal is to transform intellectuals into drunks

----------


## Clistenes

D&D Druids have the Reincarnate spell because of real world stuff we can't speak about, but, do D&D Druids believe in reincarnation, besides having the spell? And, do souls reincarnate, besides the worshipers of the Hindu pantheon?

----------


## Tzardok

> D&D Druids have the Reincarnate spell because of real world stuff we can't speak about, but, do D&D Druids believe in reincarnation, besides having the spell? And, do souls reincarnate, besides the worshipers of the Hindu pantheon?


Reincarnation, besides the forced one through the spell, seems to only happen where pantheons that have reincarnation as part of their worldview hold sway. I don't know which ones besides the Vedic pantheon do, but I remember Afro once saying something about pantheons dealing in reincarnation having a tendency to stagnate, with the Vedic one managing to mitigate that consequence somewhat.

----------


## Bohandas

> D&D Druids have the Reincarnate spell because of real world stuff we can't speak about, but, do D&D Druids believe in reincarnation, besides having the spell? And, do souls reincarnate, besides the worshipers of the Hindu pantheon?


IIRC in some editions reincarnation is forced in the demiplane of dread because souls can't leave, but I don;t know if this applies in the editions we're considering here

----------


## Clistenes

> Reincarnation, besides the forced one through the spell, seems to only happen where pantheons that have reincarnation as part of their worldview hold sway. I don't know which ones besides the Vedic pantheon do, but I remember Afro once saying something about pantheons dealing in reincarnation having a tendency to stagnate, with the Vedic one managing to mitigate that consequence somewhat.


That's kinda disappointing... It makes the Druids look even more some kind of Nature Wizards or specialized Clerics of Nature Deities rather than a viable alternative belief system...

----------


## Tzardok

> That's kinda disappointing... It makes the Druids look even more some kind of Nature Wizards or specialized Clerics of Nature Deities rather than a viable alternative belief system...


*shrug* Nothing says that no worlds have Druids with their own unique system of beliefs, but such things aren't inherent to the class, just as there are no dogmas or whatever that every single cleric shares.

Afro was once asked how a cleric worshipping nature and a druid worshipping nature differ, and the answer was that clerics draw their power from the Outer Planes, while druids draw it from the Inner Planes. The difference between clerics and druids is what they do, not what they believe.

----------


## Tzardok

I just read something that made me think of a question: If an arcane spellcaster somehow gets access to the _Miracle_ spell, for example because they are a dragon and naturally can learn spells from the cleric list, who grants the miracle?

----------


## Thurbane

> I just read something that made me think of a question: If an arcane spellcaster somehow gets access to the _Miracle_ spell, for example because they are a dragon and naturally can learn spells from the cleric list, who grants the miracle?


I would assume it works the same as a Cleric who has no deity and worships ideals: the cosmos/abstract concepts grants the Miracle.

Otherwise, if the Wizard is quite devout, then possibly his deity.

----------


## IslandPerseus

What exactly was the Time of Troubles? How did it start, how did it end, and how did it affect the divine landscape of the Outer Planes?

----------


## Batcathat

> What exactly was the Time of Troubles? How did it start, how did it end, and how did it affect the divine landscape of the Outer Planes?


All I know is that Bhaal spent it having sex with pretty much _everything_.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Tzardok

> What exactly was the Time of Troubles? How did it start, how did it end, and how did it affect the divine landscape of the Outer Planes?


The gods Bane and Myrkul stole the Tablets of Fate, on which the duties and privileges of all Torilian gods were written. They hoped to gain more power in the resulting confusion. Instead Ao, the overgod of Toril who already had been fed up with the deities neglecting their duties and worshippers in their powermongering, cast out all deities in mortal form to Faerûn until the tablets were brought back (with the exception of Helm, who was ordered to watch the ways back into the divine realms). This caused increasing breakdown of natural and magical laws and so on. It took around a year until the Tablets were brought back. When that happend, Ao destroyed the Tablets and decreed that his fiat, which allowed the gods to survive on lipservice, was ended. Now gods in Toril need true belief to survive, just like on any other world.

The Outer Planes themselves weren't affected, but a lot of deities died in the Time of Troubles, and some people ascended to divinity. Deities dying in the Time of Troubles include Bhaal (who tried and failed to resurrect himself through his children), Myrkul (who tried to cheat death by transfering his mind into the Horncrown), Bane (who got resurected a decade later), Moander, Zandilar the Dancer, Torm (who was resurrected by Ao himself when the Time was over, as he died the way he always preached it: in faithful fulfilment of his duty), Mystra, Ibrandul, Tiamat (she got better), Zinzerana, Gilgeam and Rannam (with those two the Untheric pantheon died). Leira was killed shortly afterwards, but she can be counted.

Mortals ascending to divinity as the result of the Time of Troubles include: Finder Wyvernspur, Midnight (who replaced Mystra and took her name), the Red Knight and Cyric. Kelemvor didn't ascend during the Time, but his ascension happened as a direct consequence of the events.

Other divine events worthy of mention: when Ao ended the Time, he also dissolved the barrier that kept the avatars of the Mulhorand and the Untheric gods from returning to the Outer Planes, allowing them to finally leave (not that it mattered for the Untheric ones). Also, Sharess and Hoar as ex-members of those pantheons could through that establish themselves for the first time on the Planes.
Waukeen tried to leave Faerûn by paying the demon prince Graz'zt to smuggle her back, but was backstabed and taken prisoner until she was freed years later.

I think that was everything, but so many things happend that I likely forgot something.

----------


## Clistenes

> All I know is that Bhaal spent it having sex with pretty much _everything_.


I think he did that before the Time of Troubles, in preparation for it.

----------


## Batcathat

> I think he did that before the Time of Troubles, in preparation for it.


Yeah, probably. It was mostly a joke about how most of my knowledge about the Time of Troubles comes from the Baldur's Gate series, where more and more Bhaalspawn shows up (including a... I want to say halfgod gopher). The actual impregnation taking place earlier does explain how Bhaal's dragon kid not only grew to full size but also had a full sized kid of his own, I suppose.

----------


## Tzardok

Are genies of different subraces able to reproduce with each other? And if yes, what will the child be? Just 50/50, like with elf subraces? The weaker genie with the half-elemental template of the element of the stronger?

----------


## Clistenes

> Yeah, probably. It was mostly a joke about how most of my knowledge about the Time of Troubles comes from the Baldur's Gate series, where more and more Bhaalspawn shows up (including a... I want to say halfgod gopher). The actual impregnation taking place earlier does explain how Bhaal's dragon kid not only grew to full size but also had a full sized kid of his own, I suppose.


Bhaal, Myrkul and Bane all predicted their deaths and had contingency plans to resurrect themselves.

Bhaal had the Bhaalspawn thing you speak about...

Myrkul put a piece of his essence in the Crown of Horns, so he would use it to possess somebody.

Bane prepare not one, but two gambits: In first place, he put pieces of his essence and power in a Banelich High Priest and in the artifact _Hand of Bane_, and commanded them to perform a ritual on his petrified body in the Astral Plane in order to bring him back. The second plan was to put a piece of his essence in his half-demon son Iyachtu Xvim, and let him grow in power, devouring him from the inside, replacing him and claiming his divinity back.

----------


## Yanagi

> (including a... I want to say halfgod gopher).


hahaha

Yeah, there's a bit where you're mugged by a whole cadre of bottom-seed Bhaalspawn. Critters and wee little faerie things. Hadn't thought about it in years.

----------


## aj77

> Are genies of different subraces able to reproduce with each other? And if yes, what will the child be?


If I had to guess, I'd say that two genies of non-opposed elements would produce a para-elemental genie child (since Afro was nice enough to stat out magma, slime, and smoke genies a while ago), while two genies of opposed elements would produce a Janni.

----------


## Tzardok

> If I had to guess, I'd say that two genies of non-opposed elements would produce a para-elemental genie child (since Afro was nice enough to stat out magma, slime, and smoke genies a while ago), while two genies of opposed elements would produce a Janni.


Well, I already excluded that idea. The Dukhani's personality and traits are determined by whatever demonic thing happened to them during the War of Law and Chaos. A half-Jinni, half-Ifrit wouldn't have this "taint" and so wouldn't be a Dukhan. The same goes for the other ones. An Erimesh is Lawful Good. How does this happen as the child of an Ifrit and a Dao? How would the Sureshi keep to their superiority complex, if any child of a Marid and a Dao were a Suresh?

It also doesn't solve the question of what happens when a paraelemental genie, a Janni or a Khayal sires children with another genie.

----------


## Thurbane

> If I had to guess, I'd say that two genies of non-opposed elements would produce a para-elemental genie child (since Afro was nice enough to stat out magma, slime, and smoke genies a while ago), while two genies of opposed elements would produce a Janni.


Ooh, that sounds very interesting - would you have a link?

----------


## Tzardok

> Ooh, that sounds very interesting - would you have a link?


Uhm, Thurbane... it was in the Planar Questions Thread VII. As an answer to your question. Here.

----------


## Thurbane

> Uhm, Thurbane... it was in the Planar Questions Thread VII. As an answer to your question. Here.


My memory isn't everything it used to be  :Small Tongue:

----------


## crystal_entity

This might have already come up but I don't remember it. The language "Common" - is this the _same_  language across all the planes and Prime worlds? So someone who learned Common in Baldur's Gate on Faerûn would be able to be understood by someone in Sigil, or in Palanthas on Krynn, etc? Or are there separate "Common" languages for Krynn, Faerûn, Sigil, Arboria, Carceri, etc?

I realise to a certain extent this is game convenience, but I wondered whether there was anything in canon which specifically addressed this?

----------


## redking

> This might have already come up but I don't remember it. The language "Common" - is this the _same_  language across all the planes and Prime worlds? So someone who learned Common in Baldur's Gate on Faerûn would be able to be understood by someone in Sigil, or in Palanthas on Krynn, etc? Or are there separate "Common" languages for Krynn, Faerûn, Sigil, Arboria, Carceri, etc?
> 
> I realise to a certain extent this is game convenience, but I wondered whether there was anything in canon which specifically addressed this?


The Forgotten Realms setting clearly states the origins of the common language, which is derived from a language in Faerun. I can't speak for other settings, but it stands to reason that the various prime worlds have different common languages. There may be a common language of the planes, however.

----------


## enderlord99

The closest you're likely to get is "Cant"

----------


## Bohandas

> Tiamat (she got better)


I'm led by things like this to believe that "dying" just boots a god's influence out of the crystal sphere where they "died". Tiamat has actually been "killed" a couple times and it doesn't seem to affect her except in the places where she was "killed" but in both cases it at least temporarily booted her out of the sphere (the other time was on Krynn where IIRC she still isn't back). Therefore only single sphere deities like Bhaal would have been in true danger during the Time of Troubles.

Furthermore, the fact that she came back to Realmspace leads me to believe that it may work in what is essentially a looser version of how other outsiders "die", where they're merely banished for a period of time.

ANYWAY, This all also raises the question of what happens if you trap a multi-sphere deity in a _Cage of Zagyg_; does it bottle up the whole deity, or just the deity's influence on that sphere?

EDIT:



> Or are there separate "Common" languages for Krynn, Faerûn, Sigil, Arboria, Carceri, etc?


I don't know about the Material Plane or the Outlands, however there's three main languages on the aligned outer planes: Celestial, Infernal, and Abyssal, which are spoken in the planes within the sphere of influence of Elysium, Hell, or the Abyss, respectively.

----------


## Tzardok

> I'm led by things like this to believe that "dying" just boots a god's influence out of the crystal sphere where they "died". Tiamat has actually been "killed" a couple times and it doesn't seem to affect her except in the places where she was "killed" but in both cases it at least temporarily booted her out of the sphere (the other time was on Krynn where IIRC she still isn't back). Therefore only single sphere deities like Bhaal would have been in true danger during the Time of Troubles.
> 
> Furthermore, the fact that she came back to Realmspace leads me to believe that it may work in what is essentially a looser version of how other outsiders "die", where they're merely banished for a period of time.


Tiamat didn't just one day got back with no one questioning it; her recovery is explained and happened before the Time of Trouble's end. When Gilgeam killed her, her essence was scattered over three powerfull dragon. When one of those (Tchazzar) ate the others in the hopes of replacing her, she was reunited and burst out of him. Then she killed Gilgeam.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Tiamat was never on Krynn, as long as you accept that Tiamat and Takhisis are different people.

Furthermore, I think Afro once mentioned that Ao in fact pulled multisphere deities completely in during the Time, and if they died there they would be dead, full stop. But I would need to search through the whole Planar Questions thread to see wether I remember right.
Anyway, even if not, it is in Ao's power to tell a multisphere deity that died in Faerûn: "Get out. You are dead in here, so you have no power here."




> I don't know about the Material Plane or the Outlands, however there's three main languages on the aligned outer planes: Celestial, Infernal, and Abyssal, which are spoken in the planes within the sphere of influence of Elysium, Hell, or the Abyss, respectively.


The 3e adaption of Planescape holds a language called "Planar Common", which seemingly replaces Common for all races that have it in their description, but I don't know what relation it has to other "Commons". It also has a language called "Fiendish", the failed attempt of a common language for the fiends. (It also has seperate languages for the Archons, the Eladrin and the Guardinals, but just like Fiendish they aren't used a lot, having mostly fused into Celestial.)

----------


## Eldan

I've also seen Axiomatic and Anarchic thrown around as languages. THey are a bit of a throwback to 1st edition and earlier, where there was Chaos language and Law language, that only people of those alignments could speak and understand. (Magically so, I think?) 

From what I remember from 2E, most monster compendium entries just said something like "And this creature also speaks their own language", so that's probably where Planewalker got it from.

----------


## Efrate

How does not common common or however you want to put it parse with oerth, earth, and toril becuase they are connected.  Ed Greenwood does not appear to have any issue conversing with Elminster and visa versa.  I know the silly answer is magic hur durr 4th wall, but its actually a cannon thing.  

Assuming those have a shared common ie english, what about places like athas, ravenloft, krynn, eberron, etc.  Is their common just the spanish common to our english common, or english common, or something else entirely.

----------


## crystal_entity

Thanks everyone for your thoughts! I'm struggling to think of other instances of characters from different worlds who weren't powerful mages really communicating, if you count the Baldur's Gate computer game series as canon there were Knights of Solamnia stranded in one quest who have no communication problems, but that was a highly magical planeshifting sphere which may well have have translation magic built in. 

Having read your thoughts, I think it makes more sense for each world to have a separate common tongue, and and I like the idea of a "Planar Common" tongue for the planes too, I can imagine that developing in more cosmopolitan areas such as Sigil and being spread around.

Thanks all!

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

> I'm struggling to think of other instances of characters from different worlds who weren't powerful mages really communicating,


For this, I would present "the entirety of the Spelljammer campaign setting" as Exhibit A.  :Small Amused: 

The whole _raison d'etre_ of Spelljammer is to allow travel between different Prime worlds, and in all of the 2e Spelljammer products I can't find any mention of any communications difficulties when visiting new spheres, no mention of varying dialects of Common, no new NWPs dealing with languages, nada, zip.  All the races have their own languages, of course, but even then there's no mention of differences between, say, the Krynnish and Oeridian dialects of Gnomish--and the Elven Armada explicitly consists of elves of all subraces (except drow and sea elves) from all the known worlds, with no mention of Elven dialects or the like.

Now, that doesn't mean inhabitants of different spheres don't speak different versions of a given language or have very noticeable (and possibly amusing) accents, but it does imply that they're all mutually intelligible dialects, like the differences between American vs. Australian vs. British vs. Indian English rather than the degree of difference between Spanish and Portuguese or Danish and Swedish.

The fact that Common on certain worlds has known "origins" doesn't necessarily conflict with this idea, either.  For instance, Torillian Common came from Old Common came from a mix of Jhaamdathan and Alzhedo, which implies it's a sort of bastard mix of very different parents much like English is with German and French, with no relation to other spheres' languages, right?  Well, not necessarily: Alzhedo is a derivative of "Old Alzhedo" (the Calishıte name for Auran) while Jhaamdathan is a derivative of Jotun (the language of giants), so it's entirely possible that Alzhedo was really a Common/Auran pidgin and Jhaamdathi was a Common/Giantish pidgin and modern Common appears to be part Alzhedo and part Jhaamdathan because both of those languages are part Common.  Toril is much older than Jhaamdath, after all, and has been getting spelljamming visitors for quite some time, so a more universal/multiversal origin for the local dialect of Common makes a lot of sense.

Remember, Common isn't a human language, or even a human_oid_ language.  Nearly _everything_ speaks Common if they can speak at all, regardless of intelligence or vocal apparatus, from the stupid and insane gibbering mouther to the remote and inhuman kraken.  For that to be the case, we're not talking about some random human language that can change in a few decades due to something as simple as cultural separation and linguistic drift, we're talking about something hardcoded into 90+% of sapient creatures, presumably by racial gods or gods of language or the like.  If the gods saw fit to let humans, manticores, tritons, and quasits all sit at the same table and have a nice friendly chat with each other in the same language (at least until the manticore tries to eat the triton and the quasit tries to trick the human into selling its soul), why wouldn't they do the same for humans on different worlds?

Now, I _would_ expect isolated worlds like Athas and Eberron to have their own version of Common, since they don't share gods with other worlds (and in those two cases don't have any verifiable gods at all), don't have spelljamming or portal connections with other worlds and planes (and in those two cases don't even have the same local cosmology as other worlds), and so forth, so whatever mechanism hardcodes and/or transmits the language to every critter under the local sun reasonably wouldn't extend to them.  If anything, this distinction would make reaching a heretofore-unknown and -unexplored sphere even more significant and really drive home the foreignness of the experience, since a human traveler entering the sphere goes from being able to talk to anyone from Krynnish minotaurs to Torillian pegasi without difficulty to finding themselves separated from the local humans by a Common language.

----------


## Bohandas

> If the gods saw fit to let humans, manticores, tritons, and quasits all sit at the same table and have a nice friendly chat with each other in the same language (at least until the manticore tries to eat the triton and the quasit tries to trick the human into selling its soul), why wouldn't they do the same for humans on different worlds?


To be fair, different worlds generally have mostly different gods. And the gods they do share in common are generally racial deities with their own pet language. 

And Krynn doesn't even have that. Their only offworld deities _were_ Tiamat and Bahamut, and they both "died"

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

> To be fair, different worlds generally have mostly different gods. And the gods they do share in common are generally racial deities with their own pet language. 
> 
> And Krynn doesn't even have that. Their only offworld deities _were_ Tiamat and Bahamut, and they both "died"


There are plenty of multi-spheric gods beyond the racial pantheons.  Toril has a bunch of scattered interloper gods (Tyr, Oghma, Loviatar, Tyche, etc.) plus the entire Mulhorandi (/Egyptian) and Untheric (/Mesopotamian) pantheons, Oerth has a bunch of interloper gods the specifics of which vary by edition, the Norse and Olympic pantheons are worshiped in a bunch of spheres in various forms, and several gods (most notably Ptah and Celestian) are worshiped in nearly every known sphere and have their divine power extend to all of them.

While Krynn "only" had Tiamat and Bahamut, Takhisis and Paladine were the heads of their respective moral thirds of the Krynnish pantheon and often took mortal form (as humans!), so they had outsize influence on anything going on in Krynnspace and of course the spread of Common happened long before they died.

----------


## enderlord99

On which plane would the battle at the beginning of this video  most likely take place?  My best guesses are "the Prime Material" or "Acheron" but I'm not certain.

The latter half is obviously Baator, and most likely the layer of Dis.

----------


## Eldan

It's not very Acheron for me... there seem to be too many hero-type people. Individual warriors with glory in mind, enjoying what they are doing (wing guy, the pilot). Acheron is all about being senselessly crushed as part of a nameless mass for no reason. There's not really a place for laughing maniacs with swords or desperate last second air maneuvers. In Acheron, you cower in an artillery crater in Noman's land while mustard gas shells fly overhead, you don't hang from a chain strapped to a missile to leap from plane to plane. That stuff fits right in on Ysgard. On the other hand, the entire thing is a bit too terrifying for that.

Probably material plane, it has a bit of everything.

----------


## Bohandas

> this video


Ok, this is driving me crazy, where else have I heard that opening riff? I've heard that same riff in some other song and I can't seem to place it.

----------


## Fable Wright

> It's not very Acheron for me... there seem to be too many hero-type people. Individual warriors with glory in mind, enjoying what they are doing (wing guy, the pilot). Acheron is all about being senselessly crushed as part of a nameless mass for no reason. There's not really a place for laughing maniacs with swords or desperate last second air maneuvers. In Acheron, you cower in an artillery crater in Noman's land while mustard gas shells fly overhead, you don't hang from a chain strapped to a missile to leap from plane to plane. That stuff fits right in on Ysgard. On the other hand, the entire thing is a bit too terrifying for that.
> 
> Probably material plane, it has a bit of everything.


Nah, it's definitely Ysgard. Muspelheim is a barren, desolate wasteland perfect for this kind of stuff. Bear in mind that Ysgard has pockets of Pure EvilTM for the Good GuysTM to fight all the time. Man blew up, got captured and forced to one of the Evil areas to be tortured, to either become Pure EvilTM (and have an endless stream of Good GuysTM to fight) or be rescued by a particularly heroic squad of Good GuysTM. Can't stage a daring rescue without someone to save, so that's A-OK by the plane.

----------


## Delvin Anaris

> Ok, this is driving me crazy, where else have I heard that opening riff? I've heard that same riff in some other song and I can't seem to place it.


Well, it sounds very similar to the bassline of several classic Final Fantasy games' battle themes (particularly FFVI)...

----------


## Tzardok

I just noticed something when reading On Hallowed Ground. Aerdrie Faenya is described to move her realm between Arvandor and Ysgard, but the realm is not named. Instead the description names as her realm Arvandor (Corellon's realm, not the layer) and Alfheim and claims that her realm "becomes part" of those realms. Is that just a convoluted way to say that she lives in two communal realms, or does she in fact have her own realm and docks at those two? And if the later, what would be a good name for it?

Edit: Where does Kiaransalee have her realm and what is its name? On Hallowed Ground placed her on Thanatos, but since Orcus came back she isn't there anymore, and Faiths & Pantheons is no help as it uses the Tree instead of the Wheel. Also, just to be sure, Selvetarm and Keptolo live with Lolth instead of having realms of their own, right?

2nd Edit: Does anybody know anything about the deity Gzemnid besides his entry in On Hallowed Ground?

----------


## Eldan

Apparently, she lives on the prime now, says the fiendish codex.

----------


## Tzardok

> Apparently, she lives on the prime now, says the fiendish codex.


Which chapter? I would like to read it up myself. (You don't need to add the exact page number; I own the German version of the book, not the English one.)

----------


## Eldan

Only found two entries on different WIkis that list FC as a source. And most D&D books don't actually have a decent index. So... sorry? I can't find it myself, either.

----------


## Eldan

One very short mention in the section on Thanatos, Orcus' realm, in one of the plot hooks:




> *Wail of the Banshee:* While dealing with dark elves,
> the PCs learn of an Armageddon device left by Kiaransalee in the depths of her abandoned Forbidden Citadel in
> Lachrymosa. Initiating the device, a vortex to the heart of
> the Positive Energy Plane, would have devastating repercussions for Thanatos and perhaps the whole of the Abyss.
> Discovering its location requires a trip to the Material
> World of Guldor for an audience with the Banshee Queens
> avatar before making a daring raid against Orcuss heavily
> fortifi ed capital.

----------


## Thurbane

Gzemnid gets a very minor mention in the 2E Monster Mythology, as being the only surviving deity-son of the Great Mother.

FC1 (p.125 in the English printing) mentions that Kiaransalee dwells in Kandelspire, in the mountain dwarf kingdom of Maldev: _"the final refuge of good to fall to Lolth's invasion of this entire Material Plane world"_.

According to the Living Greythawk Deities document, Kiaransalee is now know as Kiaransali in that setting, FWIW.

----------


## Tzardok

> Gzemnid gets a very minor mention in the 2E Monster Mythology, as being the only surviving deity-son of the Great Mother.


Thanks.




> FC1 (p.125 in the English printing) mentions that Kiaransalee dwells in Kandelspire, in the mountain dwarf kingdom of Maldev: _"the final refuge of good to fall to Lolth's invasion of this entire Material Plane world"_.


Well, unless we assume that those worlds are literally drawn into Abyss, that settles it (and her on the Prime):




> According to the Living Greythawk Deities document, Kiaransalee is now know as Kiaransali in that setting, FWIW.


You really shouldn't have sent me into the Greyhawk deities; now I noticed another thing: Both the Greyhawk goddess Geshtai and the Birthright god Erik are given the divine realm of Nature's Rest, but I haven't found any descriptions explicitely stating they share realms. Is that intentional or something that was overlooked?
Also, does anybody know where the Greyhawk deities Stern Alia, Beltar, Phaulkon, Phyton, Merikka, Rao, Norebo and Moquol have their divine realms and what they are named?

Edit: Another question. During my research I've found that kenku differ a whole lot between 2e and 3e. Winged vs unwinged; neutral vs evil; secretive, but honorable clan society vs selfish and thieving bands. Is there an explanation for the change? Is the god of the 2e kenku, Quorlinn, appropriate for the 3e kenku or does need a lot of adaption?

Edit edit: And another thing: Does anybody have an idea what Hoar's portfolio, alignment etc. were back when he was Assuran?

Edit edit edit: Is known what number(s) layer the Maztican tenemos Teotli Itic covers in the Abyss?

Edit x4: Who the hell are the deities Anahita, Apaosha, Kan'on, Nol, Unana, Ur, Yrrkol and Badar?

----------


## Ronin Duelist

Are the Aspects of deities and archfiends independent creatures? With their own thoughts and desires? Or are they simply extensions of their creator's will, and like weaker avatars? 

I was considering a minor plot where an Aspect of Levistus, his master being stuck in ice, has weakened influence over him and thus goes on an independent streak and actively works to keep his creator locked up so he can retain his newfound agency. Trying to figure out if this flies in the face of any established lore.

----------


## Tzardok

> Are the Aspects of deities and archfiends independent creatures? With their own thoughts and desires? Or are they simply extensions of their creator's will, and like weaker avatars? 
> 
> I was considering a minor plot where an Aspect of Levistus, his master being stuck in ice, has weakened influence over him and thus goes on an independent streak and actively works to keep his creator locked up so he can retain his newfound agency. Trying to figure out if this flies in the face of any established lore.


Yes, aspects are independent creatures, usually created for cases where a complete avatar would be overkill and/or cause too big of a disturbance. Aspects are created with a job in mind and imbued with a desire to do that job and then return and be reabsorbed. Your idea would be quite unusual, but I could imagine it happen if the aspect is kept by an outside force for a long time from returning.

Question on my own: Sixin is the god of xill, Kaelthiere is mostly worshipped by salamanders and azers. Both of them have mostly outsiders as their worshippers, which are non-dual. That means that both of them will have no (or next to no) petitioners. I thought deities required petitioners to absorb in addition to faith to survive. How do Sixin and Kaelthiere deal with that?

----------


## Thealtruistorc

Here are some I've had for a while, all compiled into one place.

First, where did the Titans come from in Planescape? They sort of have an origin story in Forgotten Realms, but I don't see how that expands to other settings or the planes at large.

Second, what was the Queen of Chaos' form or being like during the height of the Cthonic War? What sort of effects would her Form of Madness have?

Third, there was some discussion I heard somewhere of homebrew creatures which were CG creatures trapped in bizarre states akin to how the Obyriths became entrapped in their current forms. Could I get a link to those?

Fourth, is neutrality a force on its own in the planes or just an absence of other forces? Does a neutrally-aligned plane just represent a lack of influence from law/chaos/evil/good?

----------


## Caelestion

They're part of the Olympian mythos, so they've just always been there.

----------


## Bohandas

> Second, what was the Queen of Chaos' form or being like during the height of the Cthonic War? What sort of effects would her Form of Madness have?


In _Rod of Seven Parts_ she looks basically identical to Ursula the Sea Witch from _The Little Mermaid_. Big, purple-blue skin, octopus body....

----------


## Thurbane

I have a bit of an odd question: are the default PHB gods (aside from the racial gods Corellan, Moradin etc.) worshiped or recognized in the Forgotten Realms?

Are there any natives of Toril that worship Pelor, Cord, St Cuthbert etc? If yes, how does this affect their afterlife? Do they go in the great wall of heretics?

Do prestige classes like Radiant Servant of Pelor exist in The Realms, or are they modified to be for a native sun deity like Lathander?

----------


## Eldan

Probably varied a bit by edition, but I don't think Forgotten Realms officially recognized the PHB gods. Maybe it does these days in fifth edition, wizards is publishing a lot less setting material, and it's intended to be a lot more crossover-friendly.

Third edition prestige classes often came with a "how to adapt to setting X" section. And Radiant Servant of Lathander is a thing that _definitely_ rings a bell somewhere in my head.

----------


## Tzardok

> Second, what was the Queen of Chaos' form or being like during the height of the Cthonic War? What sort of effects would her Form of Madness have?


We already had a discussion on her stats and Form of Madness in 3.5 on page 8 of this very thread. Look there.




> Third, there was some discussion I heard somewhere of homebrew creatures which were CG creatures trapped in bizarre states akin to how the Obyriths became entrapped in their current forms. Could I get a link to those?


If this is about the hypothetical precedessors to Eladrin, that project never went anywhere and can be found nowhere.




> Fourth, is neutrality a force on its own in the planes or just an absence of other forces? Does a neutrally-aligned plane just represent a lack of influence from law/chaos/evil/good?


Neutrality has the Rilmani, creatures that embody it the way Batezu embody Lawful Evil. You tell me.




> I have a bit of an odd question: are the default PHB gods (aside from the racial gods Corellan, Moradin etc.) worshiped or recognized in the Forgotten Realms?


Nope. Most of the default PHB gods are single sphere deities from Oerth.




> Are there any natives of Toril that worship Pelor, Cord, St Cuthbert etc? If yes, how does this affect their afterlife? Do they go in the great wall of heretics?


I think Afro once mentioned that a visitor to Toril with a patron deity from outside simply goes to their divine realm like normal. I imagine that they still have a stint in the Fugue Plane until Kelemvor gets around to send a messenger to the patron and tell them where to pick up the errant soul.




> Do prestige classes like Radiant Servant of Pelor exist in The Realms, or are they modified to be for a native sun deity like Lathander?


Faerûn is already lousy with divinely inspired prestige classes, but if you think you need to adapt more from outside? Go nuts.

----------


## Eurus

This has probably already been discussed, but I'm suddenly interested in discussions on the subject of Outsiders changing from their "natural" alignment.

We know it _happens_, in both directions, although examples of "falling" seem to be more common in stuff I've seen? There's at least one entire class of fiends that are apparently all supposed to be fallen angels, or descended from such, so that suggests a certain tendency. On the other hand, it seems to be a very small percentage, especially for fiends redeeming/modrons going rogue/

So there are two questions, but they're kind of big. Why does it happen, and why _ doesn't_ it happen more? I've always fallen back on the general explanation that outsiders tend to be formed with a lot of instincts and not much perspective, so it's hard for them to break from the "script", but I feel like this is probably something that depends on which specific type of outsider we're talking about. So, although I'm curious about all of them, I'll limit my specific question to the types that are relevant to my game.

-Yugoloths, and the potential redeeming thereof. More or less unlikely than other fiends? Are there specific points on the promotional ladder that might be more susceptible to catching philosophy? For that matter, how rare _is_ it for a fiend to become less evil if they're stuck outside of their normal plane for a while?

-Angels, why do they seem to fall so much (comparatively speaking)? And how can they avoid it if they're in extreme circumstances? Are there angelic therapists?  :Small Confused: 

-Inevitables. I seem to recall something about them needing to be brain-wiped periodically... does that mean they have a strong tendency to go rogue compared to other lawful outsiders?

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

> Fourth, is neutrality a force on its own in the planes or just an absence of other forces? Does a neutrally-aligned plane just represent a lack of influence from law/chaos/evil/good?





> Neutrality has the Rilmani, creatures that embody it the way Batezu embody Lawful Evil. You tell me.


To expand, Neutrality as a cosmic force exists in both "balance must exist among all alignments!" _and_ "eh, whatever works" flavors in the multiverse, in the same way that LN exists in both "all must be united in the grand design!" and "order and patterns are cool, y'all" flavors and so on.

Rilmani are the current exemplars of Neutrality and subscribe to the "balance" view of TN, centering their existence around enforcing balance and carefully considering whether the slightest action they took would negatively affect the Cosmic Balance.  Their predecessors, however, were the Kamerel, who subscribed to the "apathy" view of TN, just wanting to be left alone and not wanting to even acknowledge other beings existed unless they had to.  Neither is more True Neutral than the other and both are valid expressions of the TN alignment, in the same way that expressions of the other alignments in the Wheel come in at least three different forms (each exemplar plane and its two neighbors).

Further supporting this is the fact that Neutrality is an intrinsic part of the NG, NE, LN, and CN alignments: the alignment associated with Elysium is _Neutral_ Good, not just "Good" on its own, and so on for the rest of them.  While the Wheel doesn't have a NG-with-N-tendencies plane like it does with Bytopia being the NG-with-L-tendencies plane (unless you subscribe to the Cordant Planes hypothesis), that doesn't mean Neutrality is any less important to NG than Law is to LG and so forth.




> -Angels, why do they seem to fall so much (comparatively speaking)? And how can they avoid it if they're in extreme circumstances? Are there angelic therapists?


Honestly?  It's more real-world religious influences creeping into D&D over time than anything with particular in-setting justifications.  I can't go into too much detail given the forum rules, but there's a noticeably tension between the "Good and Evil are equal and opposite points of view and souls just go to matching afterlives" influence on early Planescape and the sketches of the 1e cosmology and the "good souls are rewarded in the Upper Planes and evil souls are punished in the Lower Planes" influence on late Planescape and, say, the Fiendish Codices.

Aasimon fall a lot in D&D because "staying good is harder than becoming evil" and "the Dark Side is more tempting" and so forth are common fantasy/religion tropes and so they make for good backstories, adventure path hooks, and similar.  Fiends do "rise" in D&D but more rarely because that's an existing-but-much-less-common trope, and Lawful and Chaotic outsiders "sliding" to the opposite ethical alignment or Neutral outsiders "choosing" to the extreme alignments are basically unheard-of outside of Rogue Modrons and one-off NPCs because that's not really a concept outside of D&D so there aren't any precedents to draw on.  Looking purely at the in-setting logic and ignoring what adventures and NPC writeups focus on, one would expect to see roughly equal ratios of falling/rising/sliding/etc. because outsiders of a given alignment are as devoted to their own alignment as outsiders of any other alignment are.


It's also the case that fiends are designated bad guys so they get a lot more creative attention than outsiders of other alignments and there are more fiends statted up than other outsider types, so the developers may well have simply gone with the "entire class of fallen angels" idea because they needed more fiends for the next splatbook, and there's no class of, say, Inevitables arising from assimilated Chaotic outsiders because the devs don't care about inevitables as much and so spend very little effort or creativity on fleshing them out (lookin' at you, Anhydrut).

Same thing with exemplar lords.  There are nine archdevils in Baator at any given time but plenty of turnover from all their scheming, and unbounded numbers of demon princes in the Abyss at any given time with even _more_ turnover there, so developers need to keep coming up with ideas and eventually they're going to use the "better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven" premise a second (or third, or tenth) time.  Meanwhile, the ranks of the archon, guardinal, and eladrin lords are relatively static (I guess no one's heard of retirement or job rotation in the Upper Planes?) so they never felt the need to reach for "So-and-so started life as a demon prince, but after X and Y and Z was redeemed and now reigns over the Nth Heaven in Celestia" or the like.

----------


## Eurus

> (...)


That's a persuasive and informative answer, but I'm mostly just amused by that answer coming from your username.

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

> That's a persuasive and informative answer, but I'm mostly just amused by that answer coming from your username.


Don't worry, my previous post was completely free of bias and most certainly _not_ paid for by the Bureau of Alignmental Accuracy and Transparency of Outsider Realignment (B.A.A.T.O.R.).

 :Small Amused:

----------


## Thealtruistorc

What books would I be looking towards if I wanted more information on the Illithid Empire, their time travel, their involvement in pausing the blood war, and the extent of their empire prior to the Gith rebellion?

----------


## Bohandas

> What books would I be looking towards if I wanted more information on the Illithid Empire, their time travel, their involvement in pausing the blood war, and the extent of their empire prior to the Gith rebellion?


_Illithiad_ and _Lords of Madness_ are the main illithid sourcebooks, although I'm not sure if that blood war thing is in either of them

EDIT:
Which brings up a meta question. The monstrous arcana books for mindflayers and beholders both had titles that parodied famous books. _Illithiad_'s title was a spoof on the _Illiad_, and _I Tyrant_ was a spoof on _I Claudius_. So what, if anything, was the tirle _The Sea Devils_ (the sahugin book) a spoof of?

----------


## Tzardok

To keep the thread from sinking while we await Afro's return, I'll post a side product of my current project: an updated and fleshed out version of the neogi pantheon. Enjoy.

*Neogi and Faith:* Neogi are in general not very faithful. Like with everything else in their society, slavery and ownership dominate their interaction with their gods. Neogi treat the deities as slaves whose assistance they are due. They don't pray, only demand, and sacrifices are given as a reward for the Power doing as ordered. Logically, the neogi pantheon doesn't grow strong on devotion, nor does it hold a lot of loyality. Many neogi abandon the "great slaves" for perceived failings and throw in their lot with other gods taken from their trading partners or victims, which they don't treat any better than their own. The Patient One is the most common "great slave" of neogi outside of the pantheon.

*Kil'lix,* LE Lesser Power of the Abyss
_The Darkest Shadow, the Great Slave of Murder_
*Portfolio* Death, murder, poison
*Realm* Abyss/Nr. 246: Karish
*Symbol* A pitch black neogi head
*Domains* Death, Evil, Law, Trickery, Vile DarknessLoM
*Favored Weapon* Light crossbow

Kil'lix is the patron of violent death and assassination. It is usually depicted as a vaugely neogi-shaped blot of darkness. They say that it announces itself with a laughter that sounds equally high-pitched and booming, and that only those who are about to die will hear it. Kil'lix is considered to be the origin of defilers, neogi that evolve the ability to spit poison and usually are trained as elite assassins.


*Thrig'ki,* NE Lesser Power of the Abyss
_The Unceasing Grip, the Great Slave of Love_
*Portfolio* Love, Envy, Hatred
*Realm* Abyss/Nr. 246: Karish
*Symbol* A snake winding around a spidery hand, biting into it
*Domains* DominationSC, EnvySC, Evil, HatredSC, SpiteHH
*Favored Weapon* Claw or dagger

Thrig'ki rules over envy, possessiveness, spite and other emotions that cause you to want to control another, in short, over "love". It is depicted as a twelve legged neogi with a mane of snakes. Thrig'ki's cult is involved with the traditions and rules that govern the enslavement of neogi by neogi.


*T'zen'kil,* NE Lesser Power of the Abyss
_Wrackwhip, the Great Slave of Torture_
*Portfolio* Torture, pain, suffering
*Realm* Abyss/Nr. 246: Karish
*Symbol* A twisted black symbol
*Domains* CorruptionFC1, Evil, PainBoVD, RunesSC, Weakness
*Favored Weapon* Scourge

T'zen'kil is the great slave the neogi call on when it's time to break their new slaves in or to gain a few information. Its cult is also involved when it's time for reproduction and the neogi make one of their great old masters. T'zen'kil is depicted as a black neogi with a whip as a tongue. The glyphes T'zen'kil's priests burn into the skin of their victims are the last remnant of the forgotten neogi language in use.

Karish, layer Nr. 246 of the Abyss and shared realm of Kil'lix, Thrig'ki and T'zenkil, resembles on first sight the phlogiston. The gas that fills its gravityless expanse lacks the phlogiston's ability to block interplanar movement, but on the other hand it's even more volatile and capricious. It seems to outright seek out potential fire sources, and sometimes an especially thick waft drifts in just the right way to block sight on something vital, for example an ambush.
As the three powers don't exactly like each other, each plies the layer in it's own pseudo-spelljammer, which take the typical spider shape of the neogi vessels. Kil'lix's ship, the _Dark Web,_ is pitch black and its presence causes the evil phlogiston to lose its light. Thrig'ki's vessel, the _Ownership,_ is even for neogi standards ornate and ostentatious, and Thrig'ki lets itself be pampered on it by pleasantly looking slaves whose eyes and ears were stabbed out to keep them from looking at and listening to anyone but it. T'zen'kil's _Flayer_ is at the same time sleeker and more thorny than vessels usually are. The _Flayer_ tears through the plane to ram into everything living on its way, impaling them on its spikes (which have the ability that nothing speared through by them can die) and dragging them along until T'zen'kil's minions take them off at their leisure to have their fun with them.

*Kr'tx,* CE Lesser Power of the Grey Waste
_Burner of Weaklings, the Great Slave of War_
*Portfolio* War, brutality, strength
*Realm* Grey Waste/Oinos/Jik'qu
*Symbol* A neogi's face before a halo of fire
*Domains* Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Fire, Strength, War
*Favored Weapon* Claw or ranseur

Kr'tx is a favourite of the neogi's umber hulk slaves, who delight in its exaltation of brute force. The neogi themselves only grant it their attention when a big battle or raid is imminent. Kr'tx is usually depicted as a red neogi with fire instead of fur and burning claws. As neogi are quite cowardly, Kr'tx is the "great slave" who gets punished the most by his "masters", who blame it for them fleeing.
Jik'qu can be seen quite far on Oinos, as not even the Hades' greyness can cover up the red shine of the fires that burn everywhere on the battlefield of Kr'tx's petioners. Jik'qu is fire dominated and induces a blood rage in every visitor of non-evil alignment. Kr'tx sits enthroned on a high obsidian spire in the middle of the realm and amuses itself with the senseless slaughter around it.

*P'kk,* LE Lesser Power of Baator
_The Captain, the Great Slave of Command_
*Portfolio* Fear, Tyranny
*Realm* Baator/Minauros/Ki'pik
*Symbol* An umber hulk's claw
*Domains* Evil, Fear, Law, PrideSC, TyrannySC
*Favored Weapon* Bite or handaxe

P'kk is the patron of bullies and manipulators, in short, leaders. It's the closest thing the pantheon has to a leader and the one who, in the creation myth of the neogi, planed and organized the assassination of their hated parent Ka'jik'zxi, from whose corpse the neogi arose. Difficult to say wether that was a good decision, as now the neogi are pushing P'kk around. On the other hand, they are embodying its teachings, so maybe it likes what they do. P'kk is generally a favourite of neogi captains, and unlike other "great slaves", it gets punished only rarely. That may also be because the main reason for a punishment would be being disposed, and the disposed is rarely in position to carry out the punishment. Instead the new leader rewards P'kk for helping it gain the position. P'kk is depicted as an umber hulk with a neogi's head.
Ki'pik lies beneath Minauros and resembles the swampy caves the neogi prefer when they settle, for whatever reason, on a material world. P'kk's neogi petitioners look like they did in life, but are as big as umber hulks. Living visitors, on the other hand, are shrunk to the size of cats when entering the caves. The giant neogi delight in pushing around the small beings from the outside. Still, none in the cave are as tall as P'kk itself. The only beings in the cave whose size doesn't change are the cruel and capricious dwarf neogi, which the power treats as amusing pets.

Key: SC = Spell Compendium, HH = Heroes of Horror, LoM = Lords of Madness, BoVD = Book of Vile Darkness, FC1 = Fiendish Codex 1

----------


## Larbek24

Does anyone know a reason why there are no (Half-)Orcs in Ravenloft?

----------


## Bartmanhomer

Are there any small deities ranging from small to fine size? If so, what are their names?  :Confused:

----------


## Thurbane

Need some help with an adaptation.

I run a Greyhawk based game, and I want to adapt the Techsmith prestige class to be more Greyhawk themed.

Are there any Greyhawk gods that would be good stand-ins for Gond: those with portfolios of artifice, craft, construction, smithing and/or technology.





> Are there any small deities ranging from small to fine size? If so, what are their names?


After a quick flip through Deities and Demigods: Bes, Garl Glittergold and Yondalla are are small.

I'd recommend searching racial deities of small or smaller races for the most part. Most gnome and halfling deities are likely to be small. Kurtulmak, of the Kobolds, is medium, oddly.

----------


## Tzardok

> Need some help with an adaptation.
> 
> I run a Greyhawk based game, and I want to adapt the Techsmith prestige class to be more Greyhawk themed.
> 
> Are there any Greyhawk gods that would be good stand-ins for Gond: those with portfolios of artifice, craft, construction, smithing and/or technology.


After a cursory look through the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer it looks like  Bleredd (N lesser power), the Oeridian god of metal, smiths and mines would be the closest fit. You may have more luck if you look into Greyhawk's extensive population of hero gods, or if you take a non-human god (Flandal Steelskin, Laduguer and Moradin are forge gods and Dugmaren Brightmantle has inventions and discoveries in his portfolio).

Edit: There is, in fact, the ideal hero god for you: Murlynd, LG hero power of magical technology. His cult even uses revolvers which he apparently once brought over from Earth.

Now that I look at him, I vaguely remember Afro saying something in an older thread that Greyhawk somehow enforces a medieval stasis on technology, which is why those weapons don't spread from his cult.

----------


## Bohandas

How long do gray-elves live?

I came across a line in the flavor text for the Achaierai in the Planes of Law monstrous supplement, that mentions that the gray elf Fionara Silverbane began cataloging the birds of the law aligned planes "when she was *only 400 years old*" (emphasis mine). That implies that gray elves must live much longer than high elves, as high elves only live about 552 years on average

----------


## hamishspence

Pre-3e elves lived longer - that might be it:





> Originally Posted by 2nd edition PHB
> 
> 2nd Edition PHB
> Elves often live to be over 1,200 years old, although long before this lime they feel compelled to depart the realms of men and mortals. Where they go is uncertain, but it is an undeniable urge of their race.
> 
> 
> The table in 2nd edition shows "maximum age range" for an elf as 350+4d100, like 3rd edition, but has the note "Upon attaining this age, an elf does not die. Rather he feels compelled to migrate to some mysterious, other land, departing the world of men."
> 
> 1st edition elves were even more long-lived, with "venerable" being 1501 - 2000 for grey elves, and even the relatively short-lived drow still had 801-1000.

----------


## Ides Usher

>  When discussing worlds of the Material Plane, I often turn to referencing their spatial location on a star chart made for Spelljammer. As there is no official chart to consult, I work off of an extensively detailed and thoroughly researched fanmade chart by Nerik (warning: *huge*). This chart represents the Arcane Inner Flow quadrant of the primary "galaxy" of Spelljammer. This "galaxy" is known as arcane space after the beings that ruthlessly control its spelljamming helm supply and the secret of the lanes that connect the heart of the region to its border, known as the Arcane Outer Flow or AOF. If I note something as being on or near to the AOF, it represents a significant distance from the center of arcane space and from the most well-known worlds in this quadrant (Oerth, Krynn and Toril).


Thank you so much for the link to Nerik's chart.  This is the first of about a dozen which has worked properly.  Until now it was always blurry and no amount of re-loading or size changing or any other effort such as going directly to it has been able to produce a legible image.  I have waited literally decades for a link to this chart that worked properly.  There is much that is completely new to me, and it will take some time to assimilate.

----------


## Thurbane

I know very little about Eberron pantheons or dogma: is being member of the Blood of Vol at all compatible with having Baphomet as a patron?

Does Baphomet even exist in Eberron? 

It's to see if a character can easily have levels in both the Life Eater and Thief of Life prestige classes...

----------


## Tzardok

> I know very little about Eberron pantheons or dogma: is being member of the Blood of Vol at all compatible with having Baphomet as a patron?
> 
> Does Baphomet even exist in Eberron? 
> 
> It's to see if a character can easily have levels in both the Life Eater and Thief of Life prestige classes...


The Blood of Vol has two faces. The first face, which it shows the public and the lower ranked cultists, professes to be an ancient lore that was rediscovered by someone called Vol, who spread it. The cult takes the fact that Eberron's afterlife is always the grey and dreary Dolurrh, no matter what faith you have, as a sign that the gods aren't worth being worshipped. Instead it preaches that everybody has divinity in their blood and if you know how, you can become a god. Undead are highly respected in the cult, as they are seen as some kind of bodhisattva who have walked the path to divinity, but stopped at some point to show following cultists the way. A lot of their rituals deal in giving blood, obviously.

The second face is gradually revealed to you, the higher you climb in the hierarchy. In truth the Blood of Vol is a person cult created by the half-dragon elf lich Erandis d'Vol, the last "surviving" member of the dragonmarked house of Vol. The cult serves to give her recruits for her agents and fodder for her breeding experiments to recreate her dragonmark, the dragonmark of death (undead dragonmarked can't use their mark). By the point you realize what kind of organization you are in, you are usually too indoctrinated and powerhungry to care.

Note that because of the nature of divine magic in Eberron, which requires nothing but faith, you could theoretically become a 20th level cleric of Vol without ever learning of the cult's true face and even kill her without losing your cleric abilities.

Regarding Baphomet, things are a bit difficult. Tana'ri in Eberron are native to a plane called Shavarath, the Battlefield, which they share with the Baatezu and the Archons and which changes depending on which party holds a given territory. I don't know about you, but to me this doesn't sound like a place for archdevils, archon paragons and demon lords. More like the counterpart to the Blood War.
The closest counterpart to archfiends in Eberron are the Rakshasa Rajahs, rulers of the fiends that where born by Khyber, the Dragon Below, in the creation myth and then later bound into the depths of Eberron's underdark (also called Khyber). Adapting Baphomet to be one of those should be easy and has a canon precedent: Tiamat was ported to Eberron as a Rakshasa Rajah in late 3.5/early 4e.
Alternatively, as part of Baphomet's shtick is the breeding of new creatures, he could also make sense as a daelkyr, one of the lords of Xoriat, the Realm of Madness, that invaded Eberron long ago and where also imprisoned in Khyber.
Anyway, cults dedicated to things in Khyber, or to keeping things imprisoned in Khyber, or to Khyber itself, are collectively known as the Cults of the Dragon Below and work mechanically the same. A Eberron!Baphomet cultist would be one of those.

Baphomet could also be one of the Dark Six worshipped under a different name. The Devourer, as a dark and evil nature god, could make sense.

The last alternative is, of course, if you like this thread believe that Eberron is in the Great Wheel and your character is a Baphomet cultist from outside finding his way into Eberron. (Of course, even in that case you would get your divine power from your faith now, instead of from Baphomet.) You could even found a new religion dedicated to what you think Baphomet is.

Either way, I imagine it would take a lot of interesting mental gymnastics to be dedicated both the Demon Prince of Beasts and to your own budding divinity/a jelaous and vengeful lich.

----------


## Fable Wright

> I know very little about Eberron pantheons or dogma: is being member of the Blood of Vol at all compatible with having Baphomet as a patron?
> 
> Does Baphomet even exist in Eberron? 
> 
> It's to see if a character can easily have levels in both the Life Eater and Thief of Life prestige classes...


That's... a tricky one. 

Baphomet is one of the Overlords, the incarnations of godlike evil that ruled Eberron millions of years ago, before the Coatl died to create the Silver Flame, and the Dragons used the Prophecy to bind the Overlords in the Flame. He is the creator of the Minotaurs and Goristros.

The Blood of Vol is expressly anti-divinity, of the 'if they were actually deserving of worship our afterlife wouldn't be Dollurh' variety, and their ultimate goal is to cause the native humanoid races of Eberron to become transcendent, immortal, and divine beings themselves. That is multi-generational work, entrusted to the undead 'Martyrs' of the church (sentient undead like liches/vampires/whathaveyou who have a lot of benefits over the average individual _now_ but will become obsoleted and left behind once humanoid life ascends to divinity). 

It all boils down to what you mean by 'patron'. Baphomet, as an Overlord, cannot directly act in the world, and would move through the Lords of Dust (primarily Rakshasa) under him. They could subtly provide patronage to unsuspecting individuals. If an individual believes that Baphomet, for some reason, might be the catalyst for finding a means to letting humanoids ascend to divinity, they might seek his patronage. If you mean "worship directly as a god" then that is... going to require some mental gymnastics.

EDIT: Ninja'd by another answer, but:




> Regarding Baphomet, things are a bit difficult. Tana'ri in Eberron are native to a plane called Shavarath, the Battlefield, which they share with the Baatezu and the Archons and which changes depending on which party holds a given territory. I don't know about you, but to me this doesn't sound like a place for archdevils, archon paragons and demon lords. More like the counterpart to the Blood War.
> The closest counterpart to archfiends in Eberron are the Rakshasa Rajahs, rulers of the fiends that where born by Khyber, the Dragon Below, in the creation myth and then later bound into the depths of Eberron's underdark (also called Khyber). Adapting Baphomet to be one of those should be easy and has a canon precedent: Tiamat was ported to Eberron as a Rakshasa Rajah in late 3.5/early 4e.
> Alternatively, as part of Baphomet's shtick is the breeding of new creatures, he could also make sense as a daelkyr, one of the lords of Xoriat, the Realm of Madness, that invaded Eberron long ago and where also imprisoned in Khyber.
> Anyway, cults dedicated to things in Khyber, or to keeping things imprisoned in Khyber, or to Khyber itself, are collectively known as the Cults of the Dragon Below and work mechanically the same. A Eberron!Baphomet cultist would be one of those.


Droaam materials added indicate that Turakbar's Fist, a Minotaur stronghold, worships Baphomet as a demon. Rather than a Shavarathi demon, he's most likely an Overlord/Rajah based on the other tidbits of Droaam that were revealed in the 4e Eberron Campaign Guide.

----------


## Thurbane

Thank you both for you answers, very useful and informative.

I guess if I want levels in both classes, easiest thing to do is re-fluff one (i.e. change the cult/patronage reqs) to be more inline with the other.

----------


## enderlord99

*Really* weird and specific one here, related to some of your old homebrew:

Suppose that someone developed a specialized spell that uses positive energy to revive stillborn children (of any species) and which can allow otherwise-dead eggs to hatch.  Suppose, further, that it works regardless of whether the fetus involved was "merely dead" or "about to become undead" and prevents the latter from happening (by way of, you know, bringing them to life.)

If someone with this spell encountered a corpse that died of Wasting Hatred, broke open the corpse's skull, and cast the spell on the Odivia eggs... what, if anything, would hatch from them?

EDIT:  I'm guessing the answer is "that can't happen, because it borders on messing with preincarnate souls" but I hope I'm wrong about that.

----------


## afroakuma

> Suppose that someone developed a specialized spell that uses positive energy to revive stillborn children (of any species)


Yeah, you're about to be disappointed. Messing with preincarnate souls is a smitin'.




> If someone with this spell encountered a corpse that died of Wasting Hatred, broke open the corpse's skull, and cast the spell on the Odivia eggs... what, if anything, would hatch from them?


Nothing. Odivias are undead. A positive energy based spell cast on an odivia egg would kill it.

*So hey everyone. I am back.* It has been *way* too long. Short update to catch you all up: I contracted COVID and got myself a free trip to the hospital, and am now out and in recovery. So that's a party. Haven't seen any questions in a while; if any need to be brought back around to me, please repost 'em. In the meantime, I see that some familiar faces have been doing the Dark Lord's work for me - thanks Fable Wright, Tzardok, and anyone else who has been contributing. Love to see that this thread survives even when my own survival is questionable.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Lapak

Oh wow! I'm so glad to hear that you're out and on the mend. I wish you a speedy and complete recovery.

----------


## Khedrac

> Oh wow! I'm so glad to hear that you're out and on the mend. I wish you a speedy and complete recovery.


This - and welcome back.

----------


## afroakuma

> Oh wow! I'm so glad to hear that you're out and on the mend. I wish you a speedy and complete recovery.





> This - and welcome back.


Much appreciated! Bouncing back, doing pretty well, just waiting for the steroid-induced manic state to go away. In the meantime I have some real hummingbird energy.

----------


## Thurbane

> This - and welcome back.


Thirded.

Glad to have you back, and hope your health continues to improve.  :Small Smile: 

In terms of re-posting questions, I was only able to give a very brief and partial answer to this one:




> Are there any small deities ranging from small to fine size? If so, what are their names?





> After a quick flip through Deities and Demigods: Bes, Garl Glittergold and Yondalla are are small.
> 
> I'd recommend searching racial deities of small or smaller races for the most part. Most gnome and halfling deities are likely to be small. Kurtulmak, of the Kobolds, is medium, oddly.

----------


## Tzardok

Well, this going to be lousy with god questions. Can't be good to see them all at once, but at least some where already answered:

1. Something I've been meaning to ask about is Apep. Deities and Demigods describes him as a neutral evil demigod, while Fiendish Codex 1 and the Planescape sources mention him as a demonic... thing that is imprisoned in the Darkwells.

How accurate are those two things? Is Apep a god or not? If not, what is he? Could he escape the Wells if he ascended to godhood? And, no matter if he is a deity or not, can he grant spells from the Wells? Is the neutral evil alignment accurate? Questions over questions...

2.Are genies of different subraces able to reproduce with each other? And if yes, what will the child be? Just 50/50, like with elf subraces? The weaker genie with the half-elemental template of the element of the stronger?

3. Does anybody know where the Greyhawk deities Stern Alia, Beltar, Phaulkon, Phyton, Merikka, Rao, Norebo and Moquol have their divine realms and what they are named?

4. During my research I've found that kenku differ a whole lot between 2e and 3e. Winged vs unwinged; neutral vs evil; secretive, but honorable clan society vs selfish and thieving bands. Is there an explanation for the change? Is the god of the 2e kenku, Quorlinn, appropriate for the 3e kenku or does need a lot of adaption?

5. Does anybody have an idea what Hoar's portfolio, alignment etc. were back when he was Assuran?

6. Is known what number(s) layer the Maztican tenemos Teotli Itic covers in the Abyss?

7. Sixin is the god of xill, Kaelthiere is mostly worshipped by salamanders and azers. Both of them have mostly outsiders as their worshippers, which are non-dual. That means that both of them will have no (or next to no) petitioners. I thought deities required petitioners to absorb in addition to faith to survive. How do Sixin and Kaelthiere deal with that? (Also, any ideas about where those two's realms are?)

8. Who the hell are the deities Anahita, Apaosha, Kan'on, Nol, Unana, Ur, Yrrkol and Badar?

----------


## Edreyn

Welcome back! Sorry to hear you were sick, but glad you now feel better. Stay healthy!

----------


## afroakuma

> Thirded.
> 
> Glad to have you back, and hope your health continues to improve.


Thanks very much!




> In terms of re-posting questions, I was only able to give a very brief and partial answer to this one:


Exact same answer I would have given.




> 1. Something I've been meaning to ask about is Apep. Deities and Demigods describes him as a neutral evil demigod, while Fiendish Codex 1 and the Planescape sources mention him as a demonic... thing that is imprisoned in the Darkwells.
> 
> How accurate are those two things? Is Apep a god or not? If not, what is he? Could he escape the Wells if he ascended to godhood? And, no matter if he is a deity or not, can he grant spells from the Wells? Is the neutral evil alignment accurate? Questions over questions...


Deities & Demigods is the incorrect source here. Apep is not a god, he's a... thing. A big ugly evil thing in the shape of a snake, sealed away in the Wells of Darkness. Of course, as with many Abyssal entities, he's got some godlike qualities and can grant spells, even from imprisonment, and is functionally equivalent to a demigod in power. He is quite specifically chaotic evil, not neutral evil. 




> 2.Are genies of different subraces able to reproduce with each other? And if yes, what will the child be? Just 50/50, like with elf subraces? The weaker genie with the half-elemental template of the element of the stronger?


It's never really been stated, but stranger things have happened. I would expect the offspring to be functionally a janni, with some features mirroring the parents, and possibly a few changed spell-like abilities.




> 3. Does anybody know where the Greyhawk deities Stern Alia, Beltar, Phaulkon, Phyton, Merikka, Rao, Norebo and Moquol have their divine realms and what they are named?


The gods of Greyhawk generally get the shaft when it comes to setting divine realms. Annoying, but what can you do?

Beltar's home plane is known, at least - she's a resident of Carceri, a suitable place for such a hateful goddess. I would situate her on Colothys, in a realm called _Hollowheart_, a terrible labyrinth of dark caverns.

Merikka fits well on Dothion, first layer of Bytopia, so let's drop her there in a pastoral realm called _the Welcome Homestead_.

Mouqol really should fit into the Marketplace Eternal, but it's a four-god kind of deal. Instead, let's give him a realm that wanders slowly in a circuit of the Outlands, every so often getting close enough to the Marketplace Eternal to become an interesting temporary extension. _The Tradewind Caravan_ is a great place to seek out if you need to track down something rare, unusual, or exotic, and is also probably the safest place to deal with genie trade emissaries (given that the Elemental Planes are normally pretty dangerous places).

Norebo's a denizen of Pandemonium, oddly enough, so let's pop him on Pandesmos, the most habitable layer, and give him a realm called _Scapefate_, a gambling den with doors that may lead to treasure and prosperity... or send you tumbling into the depths of the lower layers.

Phaulkon's home plane is the Elemental Plane of Air. His realm I will call _Arrowflight_, a favored haunt of arrowhawks. He is also known to visit Arvandor.

Phyton's home plane is Ysgard. He resides on the first layer, in a realm I dub _Harvestide_, a thick woodland of orchards and well-appointed wooden halls. He is also known to spend time in Arvandor.

Rao actually has a canonical realm, named _Sweet Reason_, located on Mercuria, second layer of Celestia.

Stern Alia would fit best, I think, on Buxenus, where she can have her privacy in a realm we will call _the Shield Mother's Citadel_. 




> 4. During my research I've found that kenku differ a whole lot between 2e and 3e. Winged vs unwinged; neutral vs evil; secretive, but honorable clan society vs selfish and thieving bands. Is there an explanation for the change? Is the god of the 2e kenku, Quorlinn, appropriate for the 3e kenku or does need a lot of adaption?


Kenku went through a major shift between editions; their origin was changed to be a curse laid by Pazuzu, of all things. We could chalk the changes up to the multiversal upheaval that signaled the change in editions - certainly it's suspect that kenku are mentioned to serve Vecna. It's worth noting, though, that Quorlinn is a neglectful deity who never appreciated having to be the patron god of a whole race. I would surmise that Quorlinn is still active but, having seen his people corrupted in the upheaval, is now working to actually do his job - kenku are big on retribution, after all, and "those jerks stole my mancrows" is a pretty good reason to get some retaliation going. It's noted that there are still plenty of neutral and even some good-aligned kenku out there.




> 5. Does anybody have an idea what Hoar's portfolio, alignment etc. were back when he was Assuran?


Hasn't been mentioned. It's possible, if he is intended to be cognate to the ancient Assyrian deity Ashur, that he was a god of sun and civilization (Ashur was the patron deity/deification of the city of the same name).




> 6. Is known what number(s) layer the Maztican tenemos Teotli Itic covers in the Abyss?


We don't know the numbers of those layers, but we do know what they look like. The first is a desert of black dust; the second, a jagged hellscape of black ice; the third, an airy void without gravity; the fourth, a Limbo-like maelstrom that cannot be manipulated (unlike actual Limbo); the fifth, a magmatic and rocky layer with volcanoes; the sixth, a labyrinth of caverns; the seventh, an endless ocean; the eighth, a layer resembling the Prime; the ninth, much like the eighth, but far deadlier, with poisonous flora, demonic beings that imitate friends and loved ones, and a perverse sense of devious wickedness coming from the layer itself hating visitors and wanting to torture them.




> 7. Sixin is the god of xill, Kaelthiere is mostly worshipped by salamanders and azers. Both of them have mostly outsiders as their worshippers, which are non-dual. That means that both of them will have no (or next to no) petitioners. I thought deities required petitioners to absorb in addition to faith to survive. How do Sixin and Kaelthiere deal with that? (Also, any ideas about where those two's realms are?)


Deities can get by on worship alone; lacking petitioners means that they will simply never progress or evolve with an influx of souls joining them and giving them more richness and broader direction. It's not a *healthy* way to be, sort of like existing on a diet of fast food and junk food, but it does essentially work, with caveats. One thing they have going for them is that the outsiders who worship them are "mortal" and not beings of belief like the exemplar races. Another thing, at least in the case of Sixin, is that he is the racial power of xill (Kaelthiere is *not* a racial deity) and their mere existence helps sustain him (it wouldn't be enough to keep him from becoming a corpse, but in tandem with their worship, it's fine and dandy).

Now, it's quite likely both of them need to expend power to collect at least a few "petitioners" with which to merge; it's possible to resurrect outsiders, which means it is equally possible to recall their souls for a deity. Since they were the faithful of these gods, they have sole claim to doing this. I'd expect it's relatively a lot of work compared to the passive absorption of other gods, and requires enough power and attention that they can't do it as routinely as would really be healthy for them. Still, with Sixin a racial deity and thus not really able to make huge inroads with other races, and Kaelthiere likely having some Prime Material ambitions but limited resources to make a committed move, they're both a bit stuck.

Also, I see you're fishing for me to make up more stuff  :Small Tongue: 

Sixin would have a fine time on the Ethereal Plane, but I think we can reasonably park him on Baator. I'd put him in the outer regions of Dis, in a vicious and alien realm known as _Xixil_, a towering hivelike city at the center of a vast and hideous wilderness in which abductees are hunted for sport.

Kaelthiere is on the Elemental Plane of Fire; we'll give her realm the name _Incineration_, after her favorite thing to do to people.




> 8. Who the hell are the deities Anahita, Apaosha, Kan'on, Nol, Unana, Ur, Yrrkol and Badar?


Anahita is an ocean goddess from the Persian pantheon; Apaosha is a demonic figure from the same source. I'd have to do some pretty substantial digging to locate the rest of them, and right now that is just *not* in the cards. Ironically even in trying to poke around on this question I found some gods missing from the big huge doom list. As always.  :Small Tongue: 




> Welcome back! Sorry to hear you were sick, but glad you now feel better. Stay healthy!


Thanks very much Edreyn! I appreciate it  :Small Smile:

----------


## Tzardok

> It's never really been stated, but stranger things have happened. I would expect the offspring to be functionally a janni, with some features mirroring the parents, and possibly a few changed spell-like abilities.


Hmm, interesting. Thanks.




> The gods of Greyhawk generally get the shaft when it comes to setting divine realms. Annoying, but what can you do?


Don't know. Outsource?  :Small Tongue: 




> Kenku went through a major shift between editions; their origin was changed to be a curse laid by Pazuzu, of all things. We could chalk the changes up to the multiversal upheaval that signaled the change in editions - certainly it's suspect that kenku are mentioned to serve Vecna. It's worth noting, though, that Quorlinn is a neglectful deity who never appreciated having to be the patron god of a whole race. I would surmise that Quorlinn is still active but, having seen his people corrupted in the upheaval, is now working to actually do his job - kenku are big on retribution, after all, and "those jerks stole my mancrows" is a pretty good reason to get some retaliation going. It's noted that there are still plenty of neutral and even some good-aligned kenku out there.


A god on a crussade to steal back his people. I like it.




> Hasn't been mentioned. It's possible, if he is intended to be cognate to the ancient Assyrian deity Ashur, that he was a god of sun and civilization (Ashur was the patron deity/deification of the city of the same name).


Finding information on Ashur is like searching for lint in the desert. Oh well, at least now I have a portfolio to work from. Thank you.  :Small Smile: 




> We don't know the numbers of those layers, but we do know what they look like. The first is a desert of black dust; the second, a jagged hellscape of black ice; the third, an airy void without gravity; the fourth, a Limbo-like maelstrom that cannot be manipulated (unlike actual Limbo); the fifth, a magmatic and rocky layer with volcanoes; the sixth, a labyrinth of caverns; the seventh, an endless ocean; the eighth, a layer resembling the Prime; the ninth, much like the eighth, but far deadlier, with poisonous flora, demonic beings that imitate friends and loved ones, and a perverse sense of devious wickedness coming from the layer itself hating visitors and wanting to torture them.


I think nobody will care if I just put it on the layers 102-110. Not a lot of canonical things there and deep enough to be in one of the bigger holes.




> Also, I see you're fishing for me to make up more stuff 
> 
> Sixin would have a fine time on the Ethereal Plane, but I think we can reasonably park him on Baator. I'd put him in the outer regions of Dis, in a vicious and alien realm known as _Xixil_, a towering hivelike city at the center of a vast and hideous wilderness in which abductees are hunted for sport.
> 
> Kaelthiere is on the Elemental Plane of Fire; we'll give her realm the name _Incineration_, after her favorite thing to do to people.


You see, a few weeks ago I had a stupid idea: "Let's make a list with all the divine realms of all living gods in D&D and invent a few for those who don't have a listed one. That sounds like a nice way to spend an afternoon." So I took your big list of gods and worked my way through it. I didn't take everyone (I threw out a few that I considered superflous, like the goddess of liminals and a few from the Races books like the Glutton) and when I got through the list (three days later), I started asigning divine realms. Needless to say, I still not finished with it. *shrug*
And a deity like Kaelthiere is the worst. No real world mythology to draw from. No background from older editions. No descriptions, not even a portfolio. Just a single table entry. I didn't even know that she is a "she". So in that regard, thank you for doing my work for me.  :Small Tongue: 

That doesn't mean that I was idle. I named and located divine realms for the gods from Frostburn, the racial gods from Sandstorm and Stormwrack, the deities from the Races books (those that I considered worthwhile additons to their respective pantheons), those deities in 3.0 Deities & Demigods that didn't have any yet (for example Imhotep's _The First Pyramid_ is located on Dothion, and Anubis got _The Scales of Maat_ in Buxenus (and I made a Maat Domain)), the Slavic pantheon from the Dragon Magazine (those that weren't covered elsewhere) and the gods from Ghostwalk. I also created 3.5 write-ups (in addition to divine realms) for the Neogi pantheon (already posted), the Taltos pantheon, the Faceless God of the yakmen, Eris, Janus and the Polynesian pantheon (I was tempted to post _that_ instead, but after how annoyed you were with me for posting the Vedic ones I refrained). Currently I'm working on the Native American one.

If anyone is interested in my results, I'm willing to share.

----------


## afroakuma

> A god on a crussade to steal back his people. I like it.


Makes a lot of sense for him.




> Finding information on Ashur is like searching for lint in the desert. Oh well, at least now I have a portfolio to work from. Thank you.


Might also be written as Assur.




> I think nobody will care if I just put it on the layers 102-110. Not a lot of canonical things there and deep enough to be in one of the bigger holes.


I don't know that they are necessarily contiguous (they certainly don't *have* to be).




> You see, a few weeks ago I had a stupid idea: "Let's make a list with all the divine realms of all living gods in D&D and invent a few for those who don't have a listed one. That sounds like a nice way to spend an afternoon."


I've actually been considering doing likewise. I think I'll create a document. We can at least pick away at it.




> That doesn't mean that I was idle.


I'll take your work under consideration, but I may do some overrides where I feel the need. I'm a jerk that way.  :Small Tongue: 




> Anubis


Forget Deities & Demigods, Anubis is very specifically not a god anymore and has no divine realm. He's not even really "Anubis" anymore.

----------


## Tzardok

> Forget Deities & Demigods, Anubis is very specifically not a god anymore and has no divine realm. He's not even really "Anubis" anymore.


One of the later Dragon Magazine articles mentions that a new Anubis arose to replace the old one. I accepted that because you too brought that up once when asked about the Guardian; I think it was in thread number... 7. And if there's Anubis Mk. 2, he needs a realm. *shrug*




> I don't know that they are necessarily contiguous (they certainly don't have to be).


Would certainly make it easier for the pantheon to supervise it if they were close together.

----------


## afroakuma

> One of the later Dragon Magazine articles mentions that a new Anubis arose to replace the old one. I accepted that because you too brought that up once when asked about the Guardian; I think it was in thread number... 7. And if there's Anubis Mk. 2, he needs a realm. *shrug*


Interesting, I don't recall this. Of course my brain is also in steroid hyper mode right now and not the most reliable... do we have a citation? I'd love to reread it.

----------


## Tzardok

> Interesting, I don't recall this. Of course my brain is also in steroid hyper mode right now and not the most reliable... do we have a citation? I'd love to reread it.


That was on pages 120-121 in Dragon #359. Under Class Acts: Forgotten Faiths in the write up of The Guardian of Dead Gods as a worshippable deity.

----------


## Thurbane

Are there any non-Evil gods of beggars/begging as a portfolio? Preferably setting neutral, or Greyhawk based.

I found Erbin in the Deities and Demigods web enhancement, but him being Evil really puts a damper how I wanted to use him in my campaign.

I also found Ralishaz, but his portfolio is seems to be luck/fortune/insanity.

I thought there was a god who's class levels were Commoner 20, but I'm having trouble finding him. Not sure if he was associated with beggars or not.

----------


## Tzardok

> I thought there was a god who's class levels were Commoner 20, but I'm having trouble finding him. Not sure if he was associated with beggars or not.


The only god I remember with an NPC class is Imhotep (Expert 20). Maybe that's the one?

----------


## Thurbane

> Are there any non-Evil gods of beggars/begging as a portfolio? Preferably setting neutral, or Greyhawk based.
> 
> I found Erbin in the Deities and Demigods web enhancement, but him being Evil really puts a damper how I wanted to use him in my campaign.
> 
> I also found Ralishaz, but his portfolio is seems to be luck/fortune/insanity.
> 
> I thought there was a god who's class levels were Commoner 20, but I'm having trouble finding him. Not sure if he was associated with beggars or not.





> The only god I remember with an NPC class is Imhotep (Expert 20). Maybe that's the one?


Yep, that's the one I was thinking of. Was misremembering Expert 20 as Commoner 20.

And his portfolio (crafts, medicine) isn't really anything to do with begging.

----------


## afroakuma

> Are there any non-Evil gods of beggars/begging as a portfolio? Preferably setting neutral, or Greyhawk based.


Specifically? Not that I can think of... Ilmater and Issek of the Jug are close, but they generally focus on anyone who is suffering or oppressed. There are a couple of Chinese deities that relate to beggars specifically, but I don't believe they were adapted to D&D.

----------


## aj77

Recently I decided to try and merge the Pathfinder concept of the Four Horsemen daemonic powers with D&D yugoloth canon, for reasons.

I realized that Pestilence fits very well with the Oinoloth, War with the General, and Death with Charon; but I can't think of any yugoloth or related entity that could embody Famine.  Any suggestions?

----------


## afroakuma

> Recently I decided to try and merge the Pathfinder concept of the Four Horsemen daemonic powers with D&D yugoloth canon, for reasons.
> 
> I realized that Pestilence fits very well with the Oinoloth, War with the General, and Death with Charon; but I can't think of any yugoloth or related entity that could embody Famine.  Any suggestions?


Could give it to Bubonix, the architect and master of the Tower of Incarnate Pain on Carceri, which remains incomplete thanks to the constant attacks of the gehreleths. Striving for a satisfaction that will never be attained is very Famine.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Thurbane

> Recently I decided to try and merge the Pathfinder concept of the Four Horsemen daemonic powers with D&D yugoloth canon, for reasons.
> 
> I realized that Pestilence fits very well with the Oinoloth, War with the General, and Death with Charon; but I can't think of any yugoloth or related entity that could embody Famine.  Any suggestions?


Famine Spirit or All Consuming Hunger fit the theme, but I'm having trouble tying them to Yugoloths. Maybe if you apply the Bhaalspawn template, or Corrupted by the Abyss + Half-Fiend?

There was a couple of Famine entries in the relevant VC comp, but none are especially Yugoloth related:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=109 / https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=110
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=111
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=115

[edit] I think I misunderstood the question. [/edit]

----------


## Tzardok

Found another question that's still waiting for an answer. 



> Does anyone know a reason why there are no (Half-)Orcs in Ravenloft?

----------


## Bohandas

> Are there any non-Evil gods of beggars/begging as a portfolio? Preferably setting neutral, or Greyhawk based.
> 
> I found Erbin in the Deities and Demigods web enhancement, but him being Evil really puts a damper how I wanted to use him in my campaign.
> 
> I also found Ralishaz, but his portfolio is seems to be luck/fortune/insanity.
> 
> I thought there was a god who's class levels were Commoner 20, but I'm having trouble finding him. Not sure if he was associated with beggars or not.


The neutral godess Taiia (Deities & Demigods pg.203-206) has a mendicant religious order devoted to her. She's beither setting neutral nor greyhawk based though

----------


## mattie_p

> Are there any non-Evil gods of beggars/begging as a portfolio? Preferably setting neutral, or Greyhawk based.
> 
> I found Erbin in the Deities and Demigods web enhancement, but him being Evil really puts a damper how I wanted to use him in my campaign.
> 
> I also found Ralishaz, but his portfolio is seems to be luck/fortune/insanity.
> 
> I thought there was a god who's class levels were Commoner 20, but I'm having trouble finding him. Not sure if he was associated with beggars or not.


I was going to suggest Ralishaz, but he only _appears_ as a beggar. So let me suggest Zodal (Living Greyhawk Gazeteer p189-190). NG lesser god of mercy, hope, and *benevolence.*.

----------


## DragonIceAdept

What would be a good set of powers for a Thrall of Obox-ob? How about good Obox-ob monsters you'd find on Zionyn?

The only other mention of this kind of thing I could find was that EttDP's Aspect of Obox-ob had a weapon made from a stinger of an extinct race of obyriths.

----------


## afroakuma

> Found another question that's still waiting for an answer.


The Demiplane of Dread does not like orcs. I suspect the Dark Powers dislike the idiom of having a race present which has a long history of conflict with many of the people they have collected - it distorts the tone of their demiplane away from the "you are the monsters" and Gothic horror. There was one orc known to have entered the Demiplane of Dread; he was transformed into an apelike creature in a menagerie.




> What would be a good set of powers for a Thrall of Obox-ob? How about good Obox-ob monsters you'd find on Zionyn?


Working on that request, received your message. Operating a bit more slowly, still on steroid brain.  :Small Smile:

----------


## DragonIceAdept

> Working on that request, received your message. Operating a bit more slowly, still on steroid brain.


Thank you so much! Looking forward to what you write up.

----------


## Thurbane

> The neutral godess Taiia (Deities & Demigods pg.203-206) has a mendicant religious order devoted to her. She's beither setting neutral nor greyhawk based though


Interesting. 




> I was going to suggest Ralishaz, but he only _appears_ as a beggar. So let me suggest Zodal (Living Greyhawk Gazeteer p189-190). NG lesser god of mercy, hope, and *benevolence.*.


Zodal is probably the best fit so far, thank you.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Tzardok

> The Demiplane of Dread does not like orcs. I suspect the Dark Powers dislike the idiom of having a race present which has a long history of conflict with many of the people they have collected - it distorts the tone of their demiplane away from the "you are the monsters" and Gothic horror. There was one orc known to have entered the Demiplane of Dread; he was transformed into an apelike creature in a menagerie.:


Huh. Makes you wonder why goblinoids are okay. Maybe because they are a better fit for the dark fairy tale-like world. Also makes you wonder wether something similiar would happen to, I don't know, gnolls.
And lastly, it could have the logical consequence that any orc darklord would stop being an orc very quickly. At least, I don't think it's less likely for an orc to qualify than it is for that illithid elderbrain darklord of Bluetspur or that doppelganger darklord.

----------


## Lapak

> The Demiplane of Dread does not like orcs. I suspect the Dark Powers dislike the idiom of having a race present which has a long history of conflict with many of the people they have collected - it distorts the tone of their demiplane away from the "you are the monsters" and Gothic horror. There was one orc known to have entered the Demiplane of Dread; he was transformed into an apelike creature in a menagerie.


I mean, either this or the Demiplane _loves_ orcs (except for that one it wants to punish) and thus doesn't pull them in to be tormented. Clearly, this means that the Dark Powers are actually just an aspect of Gruumsh.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Bohandas

> I mean, either this or the Demiplane _loves_ orcs (except for that one it wants to punish) and thus doesn't pull them in to be tormented. Clearly, this means that the Dark Powers are actually just an aspect of Gruumsh.


Ooh! I like this idea.

----------


## Tzardok

Something that makes me wonder a lot: Sharess is generally accepted to have become an existence independent of Bast, right? She was the Mulhorandi avatar of Bast, but she evolved into a different direction, and when after the Time of Troubles the Mulhorandi and Untheric avatars returned to the planes she had become inconpatible with Bast and became a goddess in her own right.
Why is generally assumed that the same thing didn't happen with Hoar and Assuran/Assur/Ashur? Why is there only Hoar in the planes and not Ashur? And, in the same right, the deaths of the Untheric avatars in the Orcgate Wars had no influence on the Mesopotamian gods on the planes. Why then is Gilgeam treated as a dead god when only his avatar died? At least, I assume that Ao didn't pull the Pharaonic and Mesopotamian gods into the Time of Troubles, when their Untheric/Mulhorandi were already there and more likely more at fault for his anger.

----------


## afroakuma

> Huh. Makes you wonder why goblinoids are okay. Maybe because they are a better fit for the dark fairy tale-like world. Also makes you wonder wether something similiar would happen to, I don't know, gnolls.


Gnolls are also not present in Ravenloft. I suspect they would be transformed into some kind of jackalwere, wolfwere, or hyenawere depending on the domain. It's notable that hobgoblins don't really exist in the plane, nor do bugbears. Ogres do, in a couple of domains, likely because they exhibit nightmarish behavior and cruelty that can serve as an example to others; in general, however, an ogre is both too stupid and not hypocritical enough to become a darklord.




> And lastly, it could have the logical consequence that any orc darklord would stop being an orc very quickly. At least, I don't think it's less likely for an orc to qualify than it is for that illithid elderbrain darklord of Bluetspur or that doppelganger darklord.


It would be possible for an orc to become a darklord; it's likely the Dark Powers would make travellers forget the exact nature of the darklord on crossing the borders, though. The challenge with the usually evil races (orcs, drow, duergar etc.) is that part of the criteria for becoming a darklord is that you have some kind of hangup about your evil deeds. Drow, by and large, just plain don't. Duergar and orcs do lots of hostile and unpleasant things, but they're generally pretty conventional and/or actively sanctioned by their respective deities. I once pitched an orc darklord who was an adopted foundling of a dwarf community and betrayed them; his domain was populated entirely with dwarves and he was the only orc.




> Something that makes me wonder a lot: Sharess is generally accepted to have become an existence independent of Bast, right? She was the Mulhorandi avatar of Bast, but she evolved into a different direction, and when after the Time of Troubles the Mulhorandi and Untheric avatars returned to the planes she had become inconpatible with Bast and became a goddess in her own right.


That's my pitch; a lot of the setting materials treat them as still being the same goddess, but each has attributes the other does not.




> Why is generally assumed that the same thing didn't happen with Hoar and Assuran/Assur/Ashur? Why is there only Hoar in the planes and not Ashur?


Assuran was a minor deity of equally minor scope. The fact that he's not named and associated with the Babylonian pantheon proper suggests that he went "all-in" on his bid to migrate his power base to Toril. He wasn't the only one.




> And, in the same right, the deaths of the Untheric avatars in the Orcgate Wars had no influence on the Mesopotamian gods on the planes. Why then is Gilgeam treated as a dead god when only his avatar died?


Gilgeam wasn't a god anywhere else, only as part of the Untheric pantheon. He was destroyed by Tiamat during the Time of Troubles, which ended him for good. 




> At least, I assume that Ao didn't pull the Pharaonic and Mesopotamian gods into the Time of Troubles, when their Untheric/Mulhorandi were already there and more likely more at fault for his anger.


Anyone who didn't have a purely Torilian counterpart would have gotten yanked. He took all the racial deities despite their multi-world presences.

----------


## aj77

What is the deal (origin, purpose, horrible secrets) with the Garden in Avernus?

----------


## Bohandas

What does Lord Ao look like? 

(Because I had initially imagined him as a generic skyfather until I started reading _Journey to the West_ and noticed that all the dragon kings seem to have the surname Ao, so now I'm not sure)

----------


## enderlord99

> Yeah, you're about to be disappointed. Messing with preincarnate souls is a smitin'.
> 
> Nothing. Odivias are undead. A positive energy based spell cast on an odivia egg would kill it.


Okay, fair.  What I was really trying to ask was more... "what are odivia undead _of_" To put it another way (similar to the first) what would happen if you destroyed an odivia and then cast Raise Dead or Resurrection on the remains?  Obviously, you wouldn't bring back the odivia: you'd need Create (Greater?) Undead for that... but it is a corpse, possibly of the "intact" variety though likely not.  So... when you bring "back" to life something that was never truly alive, what happens?  Presumably, you couldn't use an odvia's remains to bring back the person from whose head the odivia once hatched, any more than you could resurrect a caterpillar from a dead wasp.  So, what would you get instead?

----------


## Tzardok

That's a bit like casting Resurrection on a Nightshadow's corpse. I would assume that the spell would fail as what you are trying to raise never was alive.

----------


## enderlord99

> That's a bit like casting Resurrection on a Nightshadow's corpse. I would assume that the spell would fail as what you are trying to raise never was alive.


Don't nightshades dissipate into nothing when they're destroyed, thus leaving no corpse to attempt it with in the first place?

If nightshades leave a corpse but attempts to rez it fizzle, then it would make sense for the same to happen with odivia... but that's the _boring_ answer!

----------


## Tzardok

I don't think the description says that. Let me take a look... No, nothing about that in the Monster Manual.

And of course it's the boring answer; it's the _sensible_ answer. I know you.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## afroakuma

> What does Lord Ao look like?


Ageless, enormous, wears a robe that reflects the cosmos itself. The description from his only appearance has him take a form: "12 feet (3.6 m) tall, ageless (neither young nor old), with a visage that was not pleasant yet wasn't unpleasant, because it didn't have any remarkable features. He had a white beard and hair, and wore a black robe dotted by millions of stars and moons, arranged in a not-quite-perceptible pattern but which had a beautiful and harmonious feel."




> Okay, fair.  What I was really trying to ask was more... "what are odivia undead _of_"


Nothing. They're natively creatures of negative energy, not animated corpses of some prior living thing. 




> To put it another way (similar to the first) what would happen if you destroyed an odivia and then cast Raise Dead or Resurrection on the remains?


Nothing. Boring, I know, but that's the answer.

----------


## Bohandas

> Ageless, enormous, wears a robe that reflects the cosmos itself. The description from his only appearance has him take a form: "12 feet (3.6 m) tall, ageless (neither young nor old), with a visage that was not pleasant yet wasn't unpleasant, because it didn't have any remarkable features. He had a white beard and hair, and wore a black robe dotted by millions of stars and moons, arranged in a not-quite-perceptible pattern but which had a beautiful and harmonious feel."


So then more-or-less humanoid




> Nothing. They're natively creatures of negative energy, not animated corpses of some prior living thing.


Shouldn't that make them outsiders like the xeg-yi?

----------


## Thurbane

Me again, looking for a FR to Greyhawk deity conversion.

Who is the best Greyhawk stand in for Tyr? Heironeous  doesn't feel quite right to me.

I mean, I get that FR Tyr is based on Norse Tyr (to a degree), but Norse deities don't really fit in with my Greyhawk game either.

----------


## enderlord99

> Shouldn't that make them outsiders like the xeg-yi?


Nah.

Vermin, maybe almost, but they're definitely undead.

----------


## Bohandas

> Don't nightshades dissipate into nothing when they're destroyed, thus leaving no corpse to attempt it with in the first place?
> 
> If nightshades leave a corpse but attempts to rez it fizzle, then it would make sense for the same to happen with odivia... but that's the _boring_ answer!


Actually, according to Dragon Magazine issue 336 Nightshades come from dead fiends that are exposed to negative energy

----------


## Khedrac

> Me again, looking for a FR to Greyhawk deity conversion.
> 
> Who is the best Greyhawk stand in for Tyr? Heironeous  doesn't feel quite right to me.
> 
> I mean, I get that FR Tyr is based on Norse Tyr (to a degree), but Norse deities don't really fit in with my Greyhawk game either.


It depends what aspect of Tyr you want to mirror.

The two Greyhawk gods of Justice are Heironeous and Mayaheine, but I think the Shield Maiden is a worse fit than the Archpaladin.

For me, the FR portrayal of Tyr is not very related to the mythological figure (not the least because he is divorced from most of his origins) so I think Heironeous not a bad fit.

If you could say what's wrong about Heironeous and what you are looking for I/we may be able to come up with a better choice for you.

----------


## afroakuma

> So then more-or-less humanoid


He can choose to be, yes. He's not limited to any particular form. 




> Shouldn't that make them outsiders like the xeg-yi?


They're not physical embodiments of negative energy; they're just animated by it. They still have a body made of flesh which is parasitized from the victim who got implanted with the egg, and the death of said victim is necessary for the odivia to arise.




> Me again, looking for a FR to Greyhawk deity conversion.
> 
> Who is the best Greyhawk stand in for Tyr? Heironeous  doesn't feel quite right to me.
> 
> I mean, I get that FR Tyr is based on Norse Tyr (to a degree), but Norse deities don't really fit in with my Greyhawk game either.


Well... you could go with Allitur, the god of ethics; in Tyr's role as a guarantor of contracts and oaths, Allitur is a solid fit. St. Cuthbert would be the other alternative.

----------


## enderlord99

Are there any creatures that are damaged by the "mending" and "make whole" spells?  If so, what is their creature-type (and subtypes, if applicable) and what sort of energy animates and/or heals them?

----------


## Tzardok

I would expect something like that in Ravenloft. I'm currently reading Denizens of Dread and you wouldn't believe the amount of creatures with a very specific Achilles heel in form of an antithetical spell. Furthermore, I would assume that the creature would be a Fey or an Outsider of the Mist subtype, embodying in some sense the concept of decay and decomposition. Alternatively it could also be a specialized undead with a similiar theme or even a construct, some kind of refuse or trash golem for example.

----------


## ShurikVch

Some extraplanar Outsiders are, if killed outside their home plane, would reappear on their "native" plane. Question: does it works for Elementals too?

Doomguard has a fortress on every negative quasi-elemental plane. The 3.X assumes there are no quasi-elemental planes. What's happened with the fortresses?

Was D&D multiverse created by a single Overdeity? And, if "yes", - did they created the Far Realm too?

Is Planescape compatible with Spelljammer? (My default presumption is "No")

"And Madness Followed" adventure (_Dungeon_ #134) featuring the Yellow Sign, Lake Hali, and Carcosa city. 1E _Deities and Demigods_ included deities from Cthulhu Mythos. Does it mean all lovecraftian entities are exist in the D&D? Was multiverse created by Azathoth?

----------


## aj77

> What is the deal (origin, purpose, horrible secrets) with the Garden in Avernus?


I accept if the answer is there's nothing interesting about the Garden, but I'd like to make sure you saw this.

----------


## Caelestion

> Is Planescape compatible with Spelljammer? (My default presumption is "No")


Why wouldn't it be?  Not only were they both 2E settings, when _everything_ was connected in some fashion, Spelljammer connects the worlds of the Prime Material, not the other planes.

----------


## Eldan

It's not less compatible than other Settings. A few details get a bit weird, but overall it's not too bad. There's a few official nods in the settings to each other, too.

----------


## ShurikVch

> Why wouldn't it be?  Not only were they both 2E settings, when _everything_ was connected in some fashion, Spelljammer connects the worlds of the Prime Material, not the other planes.


Why?
Say, because Planescape have no info about the Phlogiston, while Spelljammer says nothing about the Far Realm?
Or because Spelljammer was aggressively anti-science, while Planescape is scientifically unanswerable? (I mean: our Earth is a D&D world, but Voyager 2 isn't stuck in a Crystal sphere)
Or, maybe, because Planescape was released to replace Spelljammer, and Spelljammer don't get any books ever since? (I mean - if you want something new to be 100% compatible with something old - then why replace it at all?)

The only items of Spelljammer which may be compatible with Planescape are _Shadow of the Spider Moon_ (which is notably different from the "mainstream" Spelljammer) and Voidjammers! (since ships there are traveling the Astral Plane - not the Phlogiston - Planescape is obviously compatible)

----------


## Caelestion

Planescape had very little to say about the Prime Material, which is where Spelljammer takes place.  I don't see the problem.

Besides, how do you know that Voyager 2 isn't still in our Crystal Sphere?  As far as we know, it's only just passed the Sun's heliopause.

----------


## Lapak

> Or, maybe, because Planescape was released to replace Spelljammer, and Spelljammer don't get any books ever since? (I mean - if you want something new to be 100% compatible with something old - then why replace it at all?)


Just pulling this out, because Planescape was in no way designed as a replacement for Spelljammer. The only thing that they have in common at all is that they are a way to travel between different material planes, but that is very much _not_ the point of Planescape and is only a secondary aspect of Spelljammer. Both are intended first as settings in their own right, and are different in everything from mechanics to tone in those settings.

Planescape plays with philosophy-as-landscape, different types of ethos at war with themselves and each other. It plays with the traditional ideas of D&D by foregrounding the metaphysical concepts that underpin a lot of Material Plane campaigns and making more of the subtext into text. It strikes a balance between humanizing truly inhuman forces (demons and celestials, both in the markets of Sigil) and highlighting their genuinely alien nature.

Spelljammer is a very traditional D&D campaign to the point of being almost retro when it was released, leaning hard into the sci-fantasy and assuming a playstyle that pushes exploration into unknown territory to the fore. Forget Keep on the Borderlands, get yourself into the _true_ frontier of unknown space. It is rollicking, swashbuckling, it has aliens in the more Star Trek sense and less in the 'moral concepts made flesh' sense. It is grounded in physics (albeit pseudo-medieval physics) rather than metaphysics.

----------


## Bohandas

If an item under the effect of Shrink Item is thrown and unshrunk in midair does it retain its speed, or does it retain its momentum?

----------


## Fable Wright

> If an item under the effect of Shrink Item is thrown and unshrunk in midair does it retain its speed, or does it retain its momentum?


Psst. This is the _Planar_ questions thread. That's a Simple RAW Thread question.

----------


## afroakuma

> Are there any creatures that are damaged by the "mending" and "make whole" spells?  If so, what is their creature-type (and subtypes, if applicable) and what sort of energy animates and/or heals them?


Not that I'm aware of, but I'd assume they are out there somewhere. What kind of effect would heal them, I assume, would depend on what they are composed of - perhaps _rusting grasp_ for something made of oxidized and pitted metal scraps, or _blight_ for something made of decayed and corrupted wood.




> Some extraplanar Outsiders are, if killed outside their home plane, would reappear on their "native" plane. Question: does it works for Elementals too?


No. Elementals that die on the Prime are dead. Some superior elementals (Princes of Elemental Evil, for instance) may be powerful enough to enact such a contingency, however.




> Doomguard has a fortress on every negative quasi-elemental plane. The 3.X assumes there are no quasi-elemental planes. What's happened with the fortresses?


I mean, I don't hold to the 3.X omission of quasi-elemental planes, but if one does, your two options are: shunted onto a nearby Inner Plane; or plunged out of existence during the reordering of the cosmos. Take your pick.




> Was D&D multiverse created by a single Overdeity? And, if "yes", - did they created the Far Realm too?


No and no.




> Is Planescape compatible with Spelljammer? (My default presumption is "No")


Absolutely. Planescape even notes that there are sites (one exists in the Marketplace Eternal on the Outlands) where spelljammers can land. I myself ran a Planejammer campaign for a while.




> "And Madness Followed" adventure (_Dungeon_ #134) featuring the Yellow Sign, Lake Hali, and Carcosa city. 1E _Deities and Demigods_ included deities from Cthulhu Mythos. Does it mean all lovecraftian entities are exist in the D&D? Was multiverse created by Azathoth?


D&D didn't have the license to the Cthulhu mythos, which is why there are two printings of the 1E Deities & Demigods - one with the Cthulhu mythos, the other without. Given that it was unlicensed, afrocanon omits it from the multiverse.

In any event, no, the multiverse was not created by Azathoth.




> I accept if the answer is there's nothing interesting about the Garden, but I'd like to make sure you saw this.


I did in fact miss that - but if you've read about the Garden, then you have as much canon information as I do.




> Psst. This is the _Planar_ questions thread. That's a Simple RAW Thread question.


Very correct. I deal in fictional metaphysics, not fictional physics  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Bohandas

> D&D didn't have the license to the Cthulhu mythos, which is why there are two printings of the 1E Deities & Demigods - one with the Cthulhu mythos, the other without. Given that it was unlicensed, afrocanon omits it from the multiverse.


Well it's public domain now, with the exception of like 2 or 3 stories

----------


## Eldan

Yes, but also no. The problem is that a lot of what people think they know about Lovecraft (like Azathoth creating/dreaming the universe, like Afro mentioned above) isn't actually by Lovecraft. Like, half hte aspects of the gods and almost every monster associated with them is either from different authors or the Chaosium RPGs. So while you technically can use the Lovecraft mythos, it might not be the mythos people know. 

To add to the Spelljammer/Planescape compatibility, the big poster map of the Planes that came with Planescape shows the material plane full of crystal spheres.

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

There's also the issue that Lovecraftian stuff would require lots of tweaking to fit into Planescape because the two mythoi are fairly tonally incompatible.

There are definitely shared themes (humans being tiny in the face of a much larger universe/multiverse full of unknowable eternal beings, inhospitable swaths of existence full of inhuman races and unimaginable wonders and terrors, and so on) but the "cosmic horror" aspect of the Mythos doesn't really translate, given that Lovecraft sages start losing their grip on reality after seeing something with too many tentacles and are helpless before its might and majesty, while D&D sages will happily study said betentacled beast up close and personal to catalog its various interesting abilities and stab that thing in the face if it tries anything; Lovecraft protagonists cower at the prospect of an infinite universe in the face of which they are like unto the merest speck, while D&D protagonists can easily waltz into and out of infinite planes full of infinite demons without worrying too much about it; and most importantly the Lovecraftian cosmology is anywhere from "utterly uncaring of human life" to "actively hostile to all living beings" with a constant threat of ending if The Stars Are Right, while the Great Wheel has just as many Big Goods as it does Big Bads and will keep on truckin' literally forever unless someone is dumb enough to let Tharizdun loose or something like that and Prime worlds are threatened with ultimate conquest/destruction/etc. (and subsequent nick-of-time saving by adventurers) every day of the week and twice on Tuesdays.

So the Mythos entities _as originally described_, with all their fabric-of-the-universe-supporting ineffability and such, don't and really can't exist in Planescape, and versions of them that do fit would basically end up as another demon prince, Far Realm abomination, Elder Evil, or similar with a confusion aura, amorphous form, and other generic aberration-y abilities.  Which is cool and nice and all, but not quite the same, so headcanonically omitting them is probably for the best.

----------


## Tzardok

From what I remember, most of Lovecraft's protagonists were mentally unstable even before they met the otherworldy. If we instead take that one story where an awakening Cthulhu is forced back into sleep when the protagonist rams him with a steam ship, we get a view that's more... compatible with the Wheel. Also it shows that if you are sane (or at least a different type of nutcase  :Small Big Grin: ) the Lovecraftian abominations are more comprehensible.

----------


## Bohandas

> There's also the issue that Lovecraftian stuff would require lots of tweaking to fit into Planescape because the two mythoi are fairly tonally incompatible.
> 
> There are definitely shared themes (humans being tiny in the face of a much larger universe/multiverse full of unknowable eternal beings, inhospitable swaths of existence full of inhuman races and unimaginable wonders and terrors, and so on) but the "cosmic horror" aspect of the Mythos doesn't really translate, given that Lovecraft sages start losing their grip on reality after seeing something with too many tentacles and are helpless before its might and majesty, while D&D sages will happily study said betentacled beast up close and personal to catalog its various interesting abilities and stab that thing in the face if it tries anything


With the exception of Lovecraft's mary sue self-insert characters Randolph Carter and Abdul Alhazred. 

In _Dream Quest_ Carter keeps going after all sorts of weird crap as well as half the characters in the book telling him that it's a bad idea.

----------


## ShurikVch

> but the "cosmic horror" aspect of the Mythos doesn't really translate, given that Lovecraft sages start losing their grip on reality after seeing something with too many tentacles and are helpless before its might and majesty, while D&D sages will happily study said betentacled beast up close and personal to catalog its various interesting abilities and stab that thing in the face if it tries anything;


D&D sage looks at Obyrith and starts hacking their owl limbs off - believing they're possessed by demons (spoiler: they're not, but sage is too mad now to understand it)
D&D sage looks at the Pale Nigh and falls dead from sheer fear





> Lovecraft protagonists cower at the prospect of an infinite universe in the face of which they are like unto the merest speck, while D&D protagonists can easily waltz into and out of infinite planes full of infinite demons without worrying too much about it;


Well, firstly: Dream Cycle
And secondly:
Lascer was once a human, planar explorer; he become the first human to visit Zionyn; at his second visit, he was caught by Obox-ob, and - after untold tortures and experiments became a demonic errant boy for Prince of Vermins (Lord Lascer's origin story)
Dwiergus the Crysalis Prince tend to cocoon visitors - which, unless timely rescue, would turn them into half-fiendish servants of Dwiergus
Whoever was *almost* trapped by the Demiplane of Imprisonment would become a cultist of Tharizdun - with no saving throw, and no method to restore them
Heck, the mere *approach* of Zurguth destroyed the whole tower of Wizards!.. (Kaorti origin story)





> and most importantly the Lovecraftian cosmology is anywhere from "utterly uncaring of human life" to "actively hostile to all living beings" with a constant threat of ending if The Stars Are Right, while the Great Wheel has just as many Big Goods as it does Big Bads and will keep on truckin' literally forever unless someone is dumb enough to let Tharizdun loose or something like that and Prime worlds are threatened with ultimate conquest/destruction/etc. (and subsequent nick-of-time saving by adventurers) every day of the week and twice on Tuesdays.


Oh, really?
The Dawn WarKarsus's FollyThe Time of TroublesSpellplagueSecond SunderingCataclysmChaos WarSecond CataclysmInvoked DevastationRain of Colorless FireThe Wasting PlagueHeck, in the Eredane, Evil actually won once and for the foreseeable future - even if it's rather Tolkien's Evil than Lovecraftian Evil
Also, I can argue Abeir-Toril and Krynn have no Good deities at all - because FR deities employed the Wall of Faithless, and Krynnish deities - allowed the Cataclysm
On the other hand, Cthulhu Mythos has Nodens and the Elder Gods...





> So the Mythos entities _as originally described_, with all their fabric-of-the-universe-supporting ineffability and such, don't and really can't exist in Planescape, and versions of them that do fit would basically end up as another demon prince, Far Realm abomination, Elder Evil, or similar with a confusion aura, amorphous form, and other generic aberration-y abilities.  Which is cool and nice and all, but not quite the same


Firstly - why the heck not?!!
And secondly: D&D also have the Dark Powers of Ravenloft, the Rad Death of Gothic Earth, and the Lady of Pain in Sigil
(Add in Tharizdun which was directly inspired by Cthulhu Mythos)

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

> D&D sage looks at Obyrith and starts hacking their owl limbs off - believing they're possessed by demons (spoiler: they're not, but sage is too mad now to understand it)
> D&D sage looks at the Pale Nigh and falls dead from sheer fear


There's a significant difference between the D&D setup in which _some_ monsters have mind-affecting abilities that inflict fear, insanity, and such but otherwise running into anything from aboleths and balors to yeth hounds and zodars is no biggie, and the Lovecraft setup in which the mere sight or knowledge of things like non-Euclidean critters (_At the Mountains of Madness_) or a sketchy family history (The Rats in the Walls) and such can drive one to terror, despair, or madness.  Confront Francis Wayland Thurston or Briden with the existence of Cthulhu and he falls into an existential despair from which he may never recover, confront most D&D PCs with the existence of Cthulhu and they start shopping for _+1 aberration-bane vorpal longswords_.




> Well, firstly: Dream Cycle
> And secondly:
> Lascer was once a human, planar explorer; he become the first human to visit Zionyn; at his second visit, he was caught by Obox-ob, and - after untold tortures and experiments became a demonic errant boy for Prince of Vermins (Lord Lascer's origin story)
> Dwiergus the Crysalis Prince tend to cocoon visitors - which, unless timely rescue, would turn them into half-fiendish servants of Dwiergus
> Whoever was *almost* trapped by the Demiplane of Imprisonment would become a cultist of Tharizdun - with no saving throw, and no method to restore them
> Heck, the mere *approach* of Zurguth destroyed the whole tower of Wizards!.. (Kaorti origin story)


You missed the point a bit on this one.  All those bad things happening are the result of people encountering _specific_ creatures or locations that do terrible things to them, but in the Mythos merely the knowledge that something nasty is out there somewhere is enough to mess with their minds, whether it's "there exist non-human monsters who might destroy humanity" (Dagon), "the Necronomicon is actually true" (_At the Mountains of Madness_) or whatever.




> Oh, really?


Yes really.

For every terrible cataclysm that befalls a given setting (and there are many, since D&D is by nature post-apocalyptic), dozens of schemes to set off undead apocalypses, summon evil gods to the Material Plane, merge worlds with the Abyss, flood the world and lead to an abolethic empire, and so forth are averted all the time; every adventure canonically assumes the adventures win, after all, and you can't exactly keep adventuring in a world for long if it's destroyed.

More than that, though, all of those are "local" cataclysms that affect at most one Prime world and generally target a continent or less, leaving the rest of the planet, the crystal sphere, and the Material Plane itself completely unaffected; even Pandorym getting loose isn't a "the Material Plane explodes" kind of threat, more of a "Pandorym will get around to muching on your Prime world one of these millennia" kind of threat.  And without one of those cataclysms going off, the Great Wheel doesn't have a built-in or prophesied end and can keep on going forever.

Contrast that with the Mythos, where there are a ton of "game over" scenarios that affect a whole world or more and are definitely going to happen at some point, from "Cthulhu wakes and everyone goes nuts" to "Azathoth wakes and the multiverse evaporates," and the entire point is that those things cannot be stopped by the merely human and totally cosmically helpless protagonists, only averted or delayed by stopping fellow humans who are trying to bring them about.




> Also, I can argue Abeir-Toril and Krynn have no Good deities at all - because FR deities employed the Wall of Faithless, and Krynnish deities - allowed the Cataclysm
> On the other hand, Cthulhu Mythos has Nodens and the Elder Gods...


It doesn't particularly matter whether a given Prime world has Good gods or not...though note that the existence of the Wall of the Faithless in post-_Crucible_ material is more a continuity mistake from copy-pasting older lore referencing the Wall of the Faithless instead of the new Wall of Mirrors, and even then its existence would be more the fault of Ao than the Good gods who are stuck with it, and the Cataclysm is just described as coming from "all the gods" without detail or differentiation to my knowledge so it's entirely possible that the Good gods of Krynn were against it but were outvoted by the Neutral and Evil ones.

The point is that the Great Wheel _has_ beings, locations, and planes of explicit and undeniable Goodness that are just as powerful as (if not more so than) their Evil counterparts and do everything from empowering mortals with the power of Goodness to providing Good afterlives, and the Good gods actively care about mortalkind even if Good planar lords are ambivalent.  The very nicest cosmic beings in the Mythos, meanwhile, are at _best_ neutral-with-good-tendencies, while the rest are all apathetic to evil and largely hostile to humanity.  A D&D character can't really have the same kind of existential despair over a hostile cosmos that a Lovecraft character can because the D&D multiverse _isn't_ innately hostile in that way.




> Firstly - why the heck not?!!


Because the ineffable statless beings fundamental to the Great Wheel already exist and they can't stand competition?  :Small Amused: 

Outside of the context of the Mythos, the various Lovecraftian entities lose a lot of their unique identity and fearsomeness that makes people want to use them in games.  Lovecraft!Nyarlathotep is scary because he's a nigh-omnipotent (compared to humanity) incarnate god who walks the Earth and brings madness and destruction; D&D!Nyarlathotep can only exist on a Prime world where the Divine Compact and local overgod allow gods to send avatars or manifestations to that world, in which case ol' Nyarly is just one divine proxy among others and can't get away with nearly as much before an adventuring party shows up to slay his cult and banish him.  And so on.




> And secondly: D&D also have the Dark Powers of Ravenloft, the Rad Death of Gothic Earth, and the Lady of Pain in Sigil
> (Add in Tharizdun which was directly inspired by Cthulhu Mythos)


You'll note that every single one of those beings is not only largely "local" in power and influence but actively trapped and/or bound: the Red Death only exists on its own world; the Dark Powers only have power in Ravenloft, even if their reach can extend beyond it to a limited degree; the Lady of Pain can reach far beyond Sigil but is, as far as we know, trapped in the Cage; and Tharizdun is stuck in the Demiplane of Imprisonment.

In the Mythos the Great Old Ones are a supreme unstoppable force, in Planescape the gods defeated Tharizdun and stuck him in timeout.  If that doesn't nicely convey the tonal and thematic differences between Planescape and the Mythos, I don't know what does.

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## Bohandas

> You'll note that every single one of those beings is not only largely "local" in power and influence but actively trapped and/or bound: the Red Death only exists on its own world; the Dark Powers only have power in Ravenloft, even if their reach can extend beyond it to a limited degree; the Lady of Pain can reach far beyond Sigil but is, as far as we know, trapped in the Cage; and Tharizdun is stuck in the Demiplane of Imprisonment.


That all actually fits the great old ones almost perfectly, expecially Cthulhu and Hastur.

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## Eldan

The fun thing about Hastur is that in the original story he's arguably a hallucination. If even that. He might also just be a character in a play. All that stuff about imprisoned in the stars is... _Derleth_ (shudder.)

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## Bohandas

> The fun thing about Hastur is that in the original story he's arguably a hallucination. If even that.


Are you talking about _The King In Yellow_ or _Haita the Shepherd_.

In any case it definitely fits Cthulhu. 

And, IIRC, Yig was a properly regional deity

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## Thurbane

Question about celestial hierarchies.

Hypothetical scenario: a normal, mortal character is permanently PAO'd into a celestial form, like a Hound Archon (if PAO doesn't work for this, lets assume another method, like a permanent mind switch).

Let's also assume the base mortal was a LG Human in this case, so there is no alignment conflict.

Would the celestial hierarchies accept this Hound Archon as one of their own, and allow it to live out the rest of it's existence on an appropriate outer plane? 

Would the answer to the question change if we were talking about a Guardinal or Eladrin instead of an Archon (assume the base mortal had the appropriate alignment in each case)?

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## Tzardok

Hmm. I would assume that (at least in the case of archons) there would be hearing on the whole thing to determine what recourse would be best for both the individual and the cause, and then (on the condition that he would be accepted) the ex-mortal would be demoted to lantern archon to start climb the hierarchy, as promotion in archon society is based on enlightenment and understanding of Lawful Goodness and I think it doubtful that any mortal would have the base understanding necessary to be of a higher caste species.

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## Bohandas

> Hmm. I would assume that (at least in the case of archons) there would be hearing on the whole thing to determine what recourse would be best for both the individual and the cause, and then (on the condition that he would be accepted) the ex-mortal would be demoted to lantern archon to start climb the hierarchy, as promotion in archon society is based on enlightenment and understanding of Lawful Goodness and I think it doubtful that any mortal would have the base understanding necessary to be of a higher caste species.


Unless the spell changed their temperment, as it does in cases such as transmuting an inanimate object into a living creature

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## Eldan

> Are you talking about _The King In Yellow_ or _Haita the Shepherd_.
> 
> In any case it definitely fits Cthulhu. 
> 
> And, IIRC, Yig was a properly regional deity


Depends if Yig is Set or not.

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## Efrate

On Yig, he is the inspiration iirc for Quazecotl(sp?) according to some stuff, as well as various others.

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## Fable Wright

> The point is that the Great Wheel _has_ beings, locations, and planes of explicit and undeniable Goodness that are just as powerful as (if not more so than) their Evil counterparts and do everything from empowering mortals with the power of Goodness to providing Good afterlives, and the Good gods actively care about mortalkind even if Good planar lords are ambivalent.  The very nicest cosmic beings in the Mythos, meanwhile, are at _best_ neutral-with-good-tendencies, while the rest are all apathetic to evil and largely hostile to humanity.  A D&D character can't really have the same kind of existential despair over a hostile cosmos that a Lovecraft character can because the D&D multiverse _isn't_ innately hostile in that way.


Your writeup is good and I agree with you on all points, but, well. 

"Why do I exist?"
"To become god food."

The right spin on something can really recontextualize it.

Also? Fourth-wall-aware characters would be very aware that their universe exists only so long as the GM runs it. The moment the GM is bored, the universe just _ends_. More than that, when their adventures are concluded, when they would retire to become legends, their world dies with them. No afterlife. No legacy. Just fleeting recollections by higher dimensional beings, until those, too, fade in time.

You could _absolutely_ do Lovecraftian horror in D&D.

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## afroakuma

> Would the celestial hierarchies accept this Hound Archon as one of their own, and allow it to live out the rest of it's existence on an appropriate outer plane?


So, this question does require some theorizing, but also... we have a (sort of) case study of this happening. Not exactly in line with what you describe, in this case, and essentially a sort of reversal of it, but... in _The Deva Spark_, we see a deva place its essence somewhere quite unwise, which ultimately ends up in a bebilith. The result is a very depleted deva and a very altered bebilith.

The following points are important:

 A mind switch (see the psionic powers _mind switch_ and _true mind switch_) also migrates the soul, which retains a tether to its previous body.
 A non-native outsider, such as a hound archon, does not have duality of body and soul. They form one unit.
 I would personally contend that a non-native outsider, elemental, Far Realm entity, etc. is not the same "kingdom" for the purposes of _polymorph any object_, and hence that particular method could never be permanent, but that's DM preference so we'll walk past that one.

The essence of the hound archon that got swapped *is* the hound archon, and the archons would be most concerned about investigating and if possible rectifying the violation that occurred, not least of which because it's very likely that there will be unfortunate consequences for such a switch. Even if the mortal is the LGest LG to ever L a G, it's still a mortal, not an archon, and there are some important considerations to that - the soul of the mortal never spent time as a lantern archon and did not earn the position of hound archon; it would be incapable of advancing in the hierarchy and taking new forms. Further, it would lack essential qualities of the archon (supernatural and spell-like abilities are not conveyed by a mind switch) and would be missing the true spiritual worldview of an archon.

Most critically, though, are two points:

 Separated from its incarnate form, the essence of the hound archon (plus its host body) would sicken and eventually extinguish. That's a bad.
 As an unmatched soul and body, the transmigrated mortal won't remain a hound archon forever. Over some amount of time, what specifically it *is* will change - not so dramatically as the deva-bebilith above, but certainly into something that is not a hound archon or the mortal's original form.

So, archons in particular would be very strict about not accepting this individual as a "true" archon, because by any reasonable measure under the Law, it's not. That's not to say that, assuming there was no complicity on the part of this mortal and no means to rectify the situation, they wouldn't be compassionate about their situation. It's entirely up in the air whether the transmigrated mortal would ultimately retain the ties to Celestia as home plane or if it would eventually realign with the Prime, but if it remains attuned to the Mount, then they would find a place for it and provide aid in getting set up. They *are* Good, after all.




> Would the answer to the question change if we were talking about a Guardinal or Eladrin instead of an Archon (assume the base mortal had the appropriate alignment in each case)?


Sssssort of. All of the above analysis still applies to the situation, but for guardinals, while they would recognize that the transmigrated mortal is not a true guardinal (and, as previously, would prioritize fixing the situation if possible), they wouldn't have cause to treat them particularly differently - but again, no capacity for advancement, different spiritual outlook, missing abilities, so there would always be an awareness that they are not a true guardinal and some distance accordingly. They would want to respect who this individual is, rather than trying to treat them like the guardinal that used to inhabit that shell.

As for the eladrin... they're chaotic, they don't care.  :Small Tongue:  Recognize the authority of the Court of Stars and don't do anything an eladrin shouldn't do, and hey, welcome to the club, you weird, ineffectual, bizarrely nonmagical thingie. As above, they would still want to fix the situation first, for the sake of the displaced eladrin, but their "society" isn't particularly structured outside of bowing to the Queen of Stars and there are plenty of unorthodox eladrin out there. If you wanted to call yourself one, the reaction (assuming the whole "not fixable" thing is settled) will be a shrug. 




> Your writeup is good and I agree with you on all points, but, well. 
> 
> "Why do I exist?"
> "To become god food."


I would *really* like to stress, yet again, that this is a very poor way of looking at it. Joining with your deity makes you one with that deity's consciousness - you become part of the gestalt identity and will that drives the divinity, and your identity remains "you," within the god. You're not getting eaten, you're literally *becoming* your deity.

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## Bohandas

> I would *really* like to stress, yet again, that this is a very poor way of looking at it. Joining with your deity makes you one with that deity's consciousness - you become part of the gestalt identity and will that drives the divinity, and your identity remains "you," within the god. You're not getting eaten, you're literally *becoming* your deity.


I like to envision it as gradually taking on the qualities of an aspect

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## Fable Wright

> I would *really* like to stress, yet again, that this is a very poor way of looking at it. Joining with your deity makes you one with that deity's consciousness - you become part of the gestalt identity and will that drives the divinity, and your identity remains "you," within the god. You're not getting eaten, you're literally *becoming* your deity.


Well, sure. An Athar would see it differently, however, and horror is all a matter of perspective. 

Call of Cthulhu to _us_ is cosmic horror story about our insignificance in the face of godly powers.
Call of Cthulhu to _Cthulhu_ is a story about how his alarm clock went off, and when he was going to get up a weird metal fish flung itself at his head and he was _not_ about to call over the bosses for an inspection with a migraine like that, no sir.

...Also I'm coming off the tails of a campaign where the central event was a bunch of mortal wizards who rebelled against the gods at the concept of being god food. It wasn't Great Wheel, but that was how my GM spun it, so there's some cross-contamination of thoughts going on.  :Small Red Face:

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## Eldan

I mean, I'd say the story of Cthulhu is that of the last survivor of a doomed race, his entire species killed off in a brutal interplanetary war, the laws of the cosmos literally changing to make life impossible for his kind, who surveys the last, war-ruined city of his former empire, who magically puts himself into an eternal magical sleep, because he just can't deal with it all anymore. 

It's a tragedy, is what I'm saying, from his perspective. 

Even when he wakes up, hoping that perhas someone else survived and is calling to him, it's a bunch of primitive monkeys who tripped his magic by accident and then try to kill him.

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## enderlord99

> I mean, I'd say the story of Cthulhu is that of the last survivor of a doomed race, his entire species killed off in a brutal interplanetary war, the laws of the cosmos literally changing to make life impossible for his kind, who surveys the last, war-ruined city of his former empire, who magically puts himself into an eternal magical sleep, because he just can't deal with it all anymore. 
> 
> It's a tragedy, is what I'm saying, from his perspective. 
> 
> Even when he wakes up, hoping that perhas someone else survived and is calling to him, it's a bunch of primitive monkeys who tripped his magic by accident and then try to kill him.


That sounds about right.  After all, the mythos is bleak, not just bleak-for-humans.

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## afroakuma

> Are there any non-Evil gods of beggars/begging as a portfolio? Preferably setting neutral, or Greyhawk based.


Well how about that, I found one. Super obscure, but arguably pretty setting neutral. For context, in the original D&D era, Judges' Guild was licensed to produce official D&D material. One of their publications carrying this seal was a little book named Unknown Gods, which featured extremely minor gods associated with their own in-house setting, the Wilderlands of High Fantasy. Their license eventually expired, but the book is still official material, so it's in bounds with all of its bizarre and silly inhabitants. One of the least bizarre and silly is Sashu, God of Justice and Blind Beggars. 

*Sashu*, LN Demipower of Mechanus
_God of Justice, God of Blind Beggars_
*Portfolio* The blind, the indigent, justice for the poor, social order
*Realm* Mechanus/Court of the Sightless
*Symbol* Scales
*Domains* City, Community, Darkness, Inquisition, Law, Retribution
*Favored Weapon* Longsword

Not much is known about Sashu, but some among the indigent who suffer indignities in the shadows and alleys of prosperous cities know his name, calling on him to bring them justice for the worst slights against them and restore them where they have been displaced from lives of diligence and success due to crimes, deceit, and other such skulduggery. He is known to be deeply opposed to chaos and to believe in social order and karma.

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## Thurbane

> Well how about that, I found one. Super obscure, but arguably pretty setting neutral. For context, in the original D&D era, Judges' Guild was licensed to produce official D&D material. One of their publications carrying this seal was a little book named Unknown Gods, which featured extremely minor gods associated with their own in-house setting, the Wilderlands of High Fantasy. Their license eventually expired, but the book is still official material, so it's in bounds with all of its bizarre and silly inhabitants. One of the least bizarre and silly is Sashu, God of Justice and Blind Beggars. 
> 
> *Sashu*, LN Demipower of Mechanus
> _God of Justice, God of Blind Beggars_
> *Portfolio* The blind, the indigent, justice for the poor, social order
> *Realm* Mechanus/Court of the Sightless
> *Symbol* Scales
> *Domains* City, Community, Darkness, Inquisition, Law, Retribution
> *Favored Weapon* Longsword
> ...


That is super-obscure, but I like it!

I used to have a couple of Judges Guild supplements back in the day, but not this one.

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## Bartmanhomer

Is Io the Dragon Deity a good father to his children?

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## PairO'Dice Lost

> Also? Fourth-wall-aware characters would be very aware that their universe exists only so long as the GM runs it. The moment the GM is bored, the universe just _ends_. More than that, when their adventures are concluded, when they would retire to become legends, their world dies with them. No afterlife. No legacy. Just fleeting recollections by higher dimensional beings, until those, too, fade in time.
> 
> You could _absolutely_ do Lovecraftian horror in D&D.


You certainly can, yes, but what I was getting at was that a lot of people think that doing so is as simple as just statting up Chulthu & Friends and a bunch of Mythos critters, throwing them in alongside all the existing gods and monsters, and expecting their D&D campaign to turn out like a Call of Cthulhu one, and when people ask "Do/can the Mythos gods exist in D&D?" they're often implicitly assuming that all of the tone and thematics and such of the Lovecraftian side of things can just be squished into the D&D metasetting with no issue.  If you want Lovecraftian D&D, you have to pick the setting, main plot, Big Bad, character concepts, and similar very carefully to support the right tone and playstyle, and full-on Planescape definitely wouldn't be my first, second, or tenth choice of setting for such a game.

It's funny you mention the fourth-wall-breaking approach, though, since that's sort of how I manage to lend a horror (or at least horror-adjacent) theme to a previous campaign's Big Bad.  It was a beast of primordial chaos from back before the Great Wheel had settled into its current form who hated the strictures of reality and wanted to return the multiverse to its primordial state, and I represented the creeping advance of its influence on reality by actually "rolling back" different aspects of the rules to previous-edition states.  The _characters_ only knew that reality was acting wonky and everything from physics to their memories were being impacted, but the _players_ knew that, say, the "Race" category had just ticked over from 3e to 2e-with-Player-Options so any races that existed in 3e but not 2e had vanished without a trace for no discernible-in-game reason and if the "Items" category ticked over from 1e to OD&D then the artifacts they were hoping to use to fix things would be irrevocably changed, and that gave the whole scenario an aura of horror much more effectively than throwing any number of tentacled non-Euclidean whatsits at them.

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## Fable Wright

> You certainly can, yes, but what I was getting at was that a lot of people think that doing so is as simple as just statting up Chulthu & Friends and a bunch of Mythos critters, throwing them in alongside all the existing gods and monsters, and expecting their D&D campaign to turn out like a Call of Cthulhu one, and when people ask "Do/can the Mythos gods exist in D&D?" they're often implicitly assuming that all of the tone and thematics and such of the Lovecraftian side of things can just be squished into the D&D metasetting with no issue.  If you want Lovecraftian D&D, you have to pick the setting, main plot, Big Bad, character concepts, and similar very carefully to support the right tone and playstyle, and full-on Planescape definitely wouldn't be my first, second, or tenth choice of setting for such a game.


Definite agreement. It can _work_ if you do Cthulhu-as-Pandorym, blocking extraplanar interference as a deity-devouring presence is unleashed; or Shub-Niggurath-as-Ragnorra, or Azathoth-as-DM, or Yog-Sothoth as the Edition Barrier. Plug and play would never work in arguably any tabletop game, I'd arguea key idea of all horror, not just Lovecraftian horror, is the uncanny. Something familiar changing to become unfamiliar-but-recognizable. Dogs acting hostile for no discernible reason happens in movies, but in game mechanics changingborrowing rules from other systems, the Elder Evils' Signs changing setting expectations, or things that don't follow setting expectations like a Vancian spell that you prepare and can't _un-_prepare, that prepares itself each day at dawn and you can't recover the slot back as it slowly begins infecting other preparationsthose are the best way to add in Mythos-style horror that the fundamental assumptions of reality can't be trusted. 

And yeah, just statting up the Old Ones as gods just like any other _really_ doesn't have them come across as transgressive to the nature of reality.

This is a long-winded way of saying that you _should_ be able to stat up plug-and-play mythos critters that will give your game an uncanny feeling. Hounds of Tindalos that appear whenever your miniature touches a corner of the map's 5ft square overlays; Mi-Go who surgically swap stats like Int and Str; or Shoggoths that can copy any feat, spell, or defense they see in action. D&D _hasn't_ done that, but even with the default metaphysics, the _feel_ should be capturable. (They haven't, but I disagree with your assertion that it can't be done.)

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## Bohandas

> or things that don't follow setting expectations like a Vancian spell that you prepare and can't _un-_prepare


Wasn't that the premise of the first two _Discworld_ books?

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## Batcathat

> Wasn't that the premise of the first two _Discworld_ books?


It does sound pretty close. Considering that the early Discworld books was a lot of straight up parody, it wouldn't surprise me if it was intentional.

----------


## Eldan

Early discworld had Vancian magic, yeah. There's Rincewind, of Course, but the University Faculty even discuss which spells each of them has prepared in an emergency, with quite D&D-esque names like _Maxwell's Impressive Separator_ and _Atavarr's Personal Gravitational Upset_.

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## PairO'Dice Lost

> This is a long-winded way of saying that you _should_ be able to stat up plug-and-play mythos critters that will give your game an uncanny feeling. Hounds of Tindalos that appear whenever your miniature touches a corner of the map's 5ft square overlays; Mi-Go who surgically swap stats like Int and Str; or Shoggoths that can copy any feat, spell, or defense they see in action. D&D _hasn't_ done that, but even with the default metaphysics, the _feel_ should be capturable. (They haven't, but I disagree with your assertion that it can't be done.)


It's not that I think individual critters can't be brought over in at least a vaguely recognizable form and retain at least some of the same feel, rather that the individual creatures don't "carry" the whole Lovecraftian thing with them, if that makes sense.

Like, a while back a friend of mine who's really into the Mythos was DMing a high-level game and dropped a Shoggoth in at one point, expecting the party to be all "Alas, a Shoggoth, I can feel my mind breaking under the strain of its squamous form!" and all that...but the PCs basically treated it as just another monster (albeit a puzzle monster who "broke the rules" in various ways), figured out how to kill it, and moved on.  When he asked them why they didn't get any horror vibes, their response was essentially that their characters were high-level, they'd Seen Some ****, Shoggoths are basically scaled-down Hagunemnon with a few quirks mechanically speaking, they'd been able to easily cure or prevent things like insanity for several levels now, and they considered the Illithids they'd dealt with a few levels before to be a lot more horrifying than the Shoggoth in any case.

Other critters can have a similar "been there done that" vibe; Hounds of Tindalos are essentially Inevitables (strange-looking creatures who go after mortals who muck with natural laws) in terms of story role, for instance.  Yes, statted-up Mythos monsters will be uncanny and provide a nice change of pace if a DM usually uses more straightforward monsters, but D&D has enough Lovecraftian DNA that merely introducing a Mythos monster doesn't really move the needle much.  I'd say with most groups you'd really need to pull a Ravenloft (yank the party into a place where they can't escape, lots of things work differently, and the local gods are actively screwing with them) to get the full effect, and even then it's not the monsters that are doing the heavy lifting there.




> Early discworld had Vancian magic, yeah. There's Rincewind, of Course, but the University Faculty even discuss which spells each of them has prepared in an emergency, with quite D&D-esque names like _Maxwell's Impressive Separator_ and _Atavarr's Personal Gravitational Upset_.


And of course there's the fact that octarine being an eighth color specifically for magic that only wizards can see calls back to _detect magic_ and similar spells and the fact that D&D has eight schools of magic.  Though Discworld really draws more on original-Dying-Earth-flavor Vancian than the D&D version, with pseudo-sapient spells, every single spell having a grandiose name after its creator, and powerful wizards only being able to prepare a handful at a time.

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## Bohandas

> Like, a while back a friend of mine who's really into the Mythos was DMing a high-level game and dropped a Shoggoth in at one point, expecting the party to be all "Alas, a Shoggoth, I can feel my mind breaking under the strain of its squamous form!" and all that...but the PCs basically treated it as just another monster (albeit a puzzle monster who "broke the rules" in various ways), figured out how to kill it, and moved on.  When he asked them why they didn't get any horror vibes, their response was essentially that their characters were high-level, they'd Seen Some ****, Shoggoths are basically scaled-down Hagunemnon with a few quirks mechanically speaking, they'd been able to easily cure or prevent things like insanity for several levels now, and they considered the Illithids they'd dealt with a few levels before to be a lot more horrifying than the Shoggoth in any case.


Which is consistent with Lovecraft. The mythos' equivalent of a high level character would be the wizard Randolph Carter, who's pretty chill with all the weird stuff that happens to him, including one of his friends becoming undead, and having conversations with two of the outer gods

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## Eldan

Yeah. If you want the proper Lovecraft experience, your party would be three L2 experts who manage to defeat a Monster only because they have a magic book that allows them to use an invocation to banish it. 

A better representation of a mid-high Level D&D character encountering the Mythos is Conan, or Kull of Atlantis. Howard was a friend of Lovecraft's, and their respective stories share a lot of Elements. How does Conan deal with a Mythos creature? Kills it. 

(Fun fact: there's a Story that Howard and Lovecraft co-wrote with some other of their Friends. You can _really_ tell the Lovecraft parts, the Howard parts and the parts written by someone else. Guy is camping in the forest, hears something weird. Writer changes. It's an Alien with a magic crystal that exchanges his mind with that of an Alien on another planet. He Wakes up and is horrified. Writer changes. Then, because his human spirit can not be broken even when trapped into an alien body, he falls into a berserker rage and starts killing aliens until they give up and make him their ruler.)

----------


## ShurikVch

> How long do gray-elves live?
> 
> I came across a line in the flavor text for the Achaierai in the Planes of Law monstrous supplement, that mentions that the gray elf Fionara Silverbane began cataloging the birds of the law aligned planes "when she was *only 400 years old*" (emphasis mine). That implies that gray elves must live much longer than high elves, as high elves only live about 552 years on average





> Pre-3e elves lived longer - that might be it:


What's the...
[checking the books]
Oh come on!..
Why, I'm asking: why they decided to change that?!
That's so dumb: the elves in 3E are supposed to be the very same elves as in 2E...
(And now Yvonnel Baenre with her 2042 years of life - and death from Bruenor Battlehammer - looks even more out of place...)





> The fun thing about Hastur is that in the original story he's arguably a hallucination. If even that. He might also just be a character in a play.


To quote the Wikipedia article:



> It is unclear from this quote if Lovecraft's Hastur is a person, a place, an object (such as the Yellow Sign), or a deity. This ambiguity is recurrent in Lovecraft's descriptions of mythic entities.





> ...after stumbling queerly upon the hellish and forbidden book of horrors the two learn, among other hideous things which no sane mortal should know, that this talisman is indeed the nameless Yellow Sign handed down from the accursed cult of Hasturfrom primordial Carcosa, whereof the volume treats...


H. P. Lovecraft, 192627, revised 1933





> D&D didn't have the license to the Cthulhu mythos, which is why there are two printings of the 1E Deities & Demigods - one with the Cthulhu mythos, the other without. Given that it was unlicensed, afrocanon omits it from the multiverse.


They already used the King in Yellow
Then - why not the Crawling Chaos, or the Key and the Gate?





> There's a significant difference between the D&D setup in which _some_ monsters have mind-affecting abilities that inflict fear, insanity, and such but otherwise running into anything from aboleths and balors to yeth hounds and zodars is no biggie, and the Lovecraft setup in which the mere sight or knowledge of things like non-Euclidean critters (_At the Mountains of Madness_) or a sketchy family history (The Rats in the Walls) and such can drive one to terror, despair, or madness.  Confront Francis Wayland Thurston or Briden with the existence of Cthulhu and he falls into an existential despair from which he may never recover, confront most D&D PCs with the existence of Cthulhu and they start shopping for _+1 aberration-bane vorpal longswords_.


1) D&D adventurers are "cream of the crop", "best of the best", "chosen ones", etc; Lovecraftian protagonists are mostly random people; see the difference!..
2) Vanilla D&D adventure lacks the Sanity rules. Enforce it - and look how brave are your vaunted adventurers would be
Note: D&D inhabitants are completely lacking the materialistic worldview which can be shattered by eldritch revelations, thus - naturally less susceptible to horrors of otherworldly realities
Also, Dunwich Horror was banished, and Cthulhu - boat-rammed; thus - Lovecraftian protagonists aren't that bad...




> You missed the point a bit on this one.  All those bad things happening are the result of people encountering _specific_ creatures or locations that do terrible things to them, but in the Mythos merely the knowledge that something nasty is out there somewhere is enough to mess with their minds, whether it's "there exist non-human monsters who might destroy humanity" (Dagon), "the Necronomicon is actually true" (_At the Mountains of Madness_) or whatever.


Not always.
Say, The Music of Erich Zann: while the protagonist was highly disturbed by the events in the story, he don't gone mad from it
Also, see the aforementioned victories over eldritch beings





> Yes really.
> 
> For every terrible cataclysm that befalls a given setting (and there are many, since D&D is by nature post-apocalyptic), dozens of schemes to set off undead apocalypses, summon evil gods to the Material Plane, merge worlds with the Abyss, flood the world and lead to an abolethic empire, and so forth are averted all the time; every adventure canonically assumes the adventures win, after all, and you can't exactly keep adventuring in a world for long if it's destroyed.


Do you understand your reasoning is the blatant survivorship bias?
For all the times adventurers heroically triumphed over impossible odds, how many times Evil came out on top offscreen?
In the Eredane (_Midnight Campaign Setting_), Sauron expy blocked the access in- and out- of material plane, which not just impeded Conjuration spells, but even prevented divine acts (except his own) - and not just direct interventions, but even simple divine magic!
"Mind Lords of Talaron" article tells us about how young and hopeful kinda-humans found the path from their world and encountered their first otherworldly folk. Unfortunately for Talaron, it were illithids. Initially peaceful contact ended in a full blown war. Talaron won and kicked invaders out. But Mind Flayers, being sore losers, in reprisal killed their sun. So much for victory of Good!..
Lolth, canonically, have the whole worlds ensnared in her Demonweb Pits...




> More than that, though, all of those are "local" cataclysms that affect at most one Prime world and generally target a continent or less, leaving the rest of the planet, the crystal sphere, and the Material Plane itself completely unaffected


Well, firstly: actually, many of aforementioned were either sphere-wide events, or have aftermath of unknown magnitude
And secondly: even if yes - so what? It's not like we need destruction of the whole world to be afraid: destruction of your home is pretty enough; of your hometown(/village/city/.../whatever) - more than enough; country(/state) - well beyond the mere "enough"; the whole world - just plane insane; more than just a world - inconceivable 





> even Pandorym getting loose isn't a "the Material Plane explodes" kind of threat, more of a "Pandorym will get around to muching on your Prime world one of these millennia" kind of threat.


Pretty bold claim - considering Pandorym have no stats
Are you sure you didn't confused it with Atropus?




> And without one of those cataclysms going off, the Great Wheel doesn't have a built-in or prophesied end and can keep on going forever.


But it have!..
The "Age of Worms" is the best-known (but, likely, isn't the only) example




> Contrast that with the Mythos, where there are a ton of "game over" scenarios that affect a whole world or more and are definitely going to happen at some point, from "Cthulhu wakes and everyone goes nuts" to "Azathoth wakes and the multiverse evaporates," and the entire point is that those things cannot be stopped by the merely human and totally cosmically helpless protagonists, only averted or delayed by stopping fellow humans who are trying to bring them about.


OK!
Say, Tharizdun gone for a "very enthusiastic walk"
Who would stop him?
Adventurers?!.





> Because the ineffable statless beings fundamental to the Great Wheel already exist and they can't stand competition?


Because the Far Realm is outside the Wheel, and non-local gods have no power there?





> Outside of the context of the Mythos, the various Lovecraftian entities lose a lot of their unique identity and fearsomeness that makes people want to use them in games.  Lovecraft!Nyarlathotep is scary because he's a nigh-omnipotent (compared to humanity) incarnate god who walks the Earth and brings madness and destruction; D&D!Nyarlathotep can only exist on a Prime world where the Divine Compact and local overgod allow gods to send avatars or manifestations to that world, in which case ol' Nyarly is just one divine proxy among others and can't get away with nearly as much before an adventuring party shows up to slay his cult and banish him.  And so on.


D&D!Nyarlathotep: any spell at will as a free action!
What, not scary enough? OK, Rejuvenation (like Ghost, but 100% effective, and no "_set right whatever prevents_" clause)
Still not scary enough? Well, it have 10 avatars - which have all the capabilities of original (except for the "Rejuvenation" and "Avatar")





> You'll note that every single one of those beings is not only largely "local" in power and influence but actively trapped and/or bound: the Red Death only exists on its own world; the Dark Powers only have power in Ravenloft, even if their reach can extend beyond it to a limited degree; the Lady of Pain can reach far beyond Sigil but is, as far as we know, trapped in the Cage; and Tharizdun is stuck in the Demiplane of Imprisonment.
> 
> In the Mythos the Great Old Ones are a supreme unstoppable force, in Planescape the gods defeated Tharizdun and stuck him in timeout.  If that doesn't nicely convey the tonal and thematic differences between Planescape and the Mythos, I don't know what does.


Some of Mythos entities are imprisoned too: like Avatar of Nyarlathotep in "The Haunter of the Dark", or Cthulhu - for the most obvious example...

----------


## Efrate

The biggest difference is the abilities a typical dnd character has vastly outstrips anything a protagonist in a cthulhu mythos has.  Reshaping reality on a whim is something high level casters just do.  A high level fighter could get rammed by a boat and brush it off.  Your abilities are more in line with the beings of the mythos than with those who oppose them.

Most adventures are pcs trying to stop horrific things or people from doing some destructive or world changing event.  Just swap Ashardalon for Cthulhu or the like and it plays out almost identically.  Mind blank prebuff over energy immunity.  Half illithid iber half dragon etc.

----------


## Batcathat

> The biggest difference is the abilities a typical dnd character has vastly outstrips anything a protagonist in a cthulhu mythos has.  Reshaping reality on a whim is something high level casters just do.  A high level fighter could get rammed by a boat and brush it off.  Your abilities are more in line with the beings of the mythos than with those who oppose them.


Suddenly I feel the urge to run a game where the PCs are eldritch horrors driving NPCs mad with their unknowable actions... Might be kinda fun with the right group.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Efrate

Typing that I thought the same thing.  Or flip it.  E6 game vs. normal high level players.  Captures the feel better.

----------


## Batcathat

> Typing that I thought the same thing.  Or flip it.  E6 game vs. normal high level players.  Captures the feel better.


Why not both? First have the players wreck havoc on some poor mortals and then (Next session? Next campaign?) have them as their former characters' latest victims. I'm sure there's some sort of moral in that.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Bohandas

> Suddenly I feel the urge to run a game where the PCs are eldritch horrors driving NPCs mad with their unknowable actions... Might be kinda fun with the right group.


Isn't that basically the city of Greyhawk's backstory? Like it's golden age was supposedly nigh unlivable because it was powered by the epic magicial powera of the city's deranged former-adventurer-turned-mayor-turned-god-emperor Zagyg Yragerne, and for every great triumph of that magic there would also be an incident where people would get home one day and discover that their neighborhood was now made of elemental fire or something and was no longer liveable

----------


## afroakuma

> What would be a good set of powers for a Thrall of Obox-ob? How about good Obox-ob monsters you'd find on Zionyn?
> 
> The only other mention of this kind of thing I could find was that EttDP's Aspect of Obox-ob had a weapon made from a stinger of an extinct race of obyriths.


*Spoiler: Thrall of Obox-ob*
Show

*Thrall of Obox-ob*

Deep in the darkest and most wretched depths of the Abyss writhes the deposed Prince of Demons, Obox-ob. Once the mightiest of all demonkind, he was thrown down in an ambush by the Queen of Chaos, nearly destroyed by the attack, reduced to being Demon Prince of Vermin, a shadow of his former might. Obox-ob remembers, however, and so does the multiverse, which still dreads the nightmarish and haunting truth of the profound horror that this once-mighty obyrith represents.

While he has been reduced to the meanest obscurity, ancient ruins and esoteric texts still mention his name and his forgotten power. Though only the most wretched and insane would seek to know more about this being, let alone strike a covenant with him, there are always those few truly depraved souls willing to debase themselves in the name of chaos and evil, abandoning society to serve as the nightmarish feeler of Obox-ob on the Prime Material Plane. Those who profane their own mind and body in service to the Demon Prince of Vermin are "rewarded" with power over crawling things, which live as both symbiote and infestation within their flesh, forever altering them in ways that will exile them from the lives they once led.

Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Spellcasting/Other

1st
+0
+2
+0
+0
Infestation, swarm immunity
-

2nd
+1
+3
+0
+0
Verminbond
+1 level of existing class

3rd
+2
+3
+1
+1
Power over vermin, Willing Deformity
+1 level of existing class

4th
+3
+4
+1
+1
Improved verminbond
+1 level of existing class

5th
+3
+4
+1
+1
Summon ekolid, unknowable horror
+1 level of existing class

6th
+4
+5
+2
+2
Deformity (parasite), greater verminbond
+1 level of existing class

7th
+5
+5
+2
+2
Shriek of Zionyn, swarm hive
+1 level of existing class

8th
+6
+6
+2
+2
Superior verminbond
+1 level of existing class

9th
+6
+6
+3
+3
Profound degradation
+1 level of existing class

10th
+7
+7
+3
+3
Gift of Obox-ob, living nightmare
+1 level of existing class



*Requirements*
To become a thrall of Obox-ob, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria:

*Alignment* Chaotic evil
*Skills* Disguise 4 ranks, Intimidate 8 ranks or Psicraft 8 ranks or Spellcraft 8 ranks
*Feats* Thrall to Demon plus one of: Vermin CompanionECS, VerminfriendBoVD, Verminous GraftDR336
*Special* Must sacrifice a member of your own race to Obox-ob by paralyzing them with vermin poison and letting a swarm of vermin feed on them until death, then allow the swarm to feast on you until you are at 0 hp or below. This ritual must take place in an area that is _desecrated_, _unhallowed_, or otherwise heavily tainted with the power of darkness. This ritual permanently damages the body of the thrall in some way, resulting in a -2 adjustment to the ability score of their choice, which can only be removed if the thrall of Obox-ob renounces her Abyssal patron and receives _restoration_, _heal_, and _atonement_; _wish_ or _miracle_ will also accomplish this. Doing so immediately revokes all of the class features of this class, which can never again be taken - Obox-ob's second embrace will result in certain death, for he does not forgive any slight.

*Hit Die* d8
*Class Skills* The thrall of Obox-ob's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
*Skill Points at Each Level* 4 + Int modifier.

*Class Features*

*Weapon and Armor Proficiency* The thrall of Obox-ob gains no proficiency with any kind of weapon, armor, or shield.

*Spellcasting/Other* Obox-ob accepts thralls from many backgrounds, as long as they are willing to undergo deformity and infestation and spread darkness and chaos in his name. As the powers he confers through his corrupting touch require no training to develop, his thralls are fit to continue mastering some of the talents they possessed prior to making covenant with the Demon Prince of Vermin. At levels 2 through 10, any of the following class features possessed by the thrall may be progressed as though taking an additional level in that class. If an additional level would not result in progression of that ability, then nothing is gained.

*Spoiler: Class Features*
Show

Effective manifester class level, for manifesting classes (e.g. a 5th level psion/2nd level thrall of Obox-ob manifests powers as a 6th level manifester)
Effective spellcasting class level, for spellcasting classes (e.g. a 9th level wizard/3rd level thrall of Obox-ob casts spells as an 11th level wizard)
Effective soulbinding class level, for soulbinding classes (e.g. an 8th level binder/8th level thrall of Obox-ob binds vestiges and uses vestige abilities as a 15th level binder)
Effective shadow magic class level, for classes that wield mysteries (e.g. a 10th level shadowcaster/4th level thrall of Obox-ob wields mysteries as a 13th level shadowcaster)
Effective martial initiator class level, for classes that initiate maneuvers (e.g. a 10th level swordsage/5th level thrall of Obox-ob initiates maneuvers as a 14th level swordsage)
Effective meldshaper class level, for classes that shape soulmelds (e.g. a 7th level soulborn/6th level thrall of Obox-ob shapes soulmelds as a 12th level soulborn)
Ineffective truenaming class level, for classes that suck utter truenames (e.g. a 20th level truenamer/10th level thrall of Obox-ob still really sucks)

Powers known and power points for manifesting classes, unless noted below
Spells known and spell slots for spellcasting classes, unless noted below
Maneuvers known, maneuvers readied, and stances known for initiating classes, unless noted below
Soulmelds, essentia, maximum chakra binds, and open chakras for meldshaping classes, unless noted below

Artificer infusions
Barbarian DR and rage per day, battle ecstasy per day, resilient rage per day, berserker strength, mountain rage, halfling rage
Battle dancer bonus speed, unarmed strike damage, and AC bonus
Binder power augmentation, maximum vestige level, and number of simultaneous vestiges bound
Divine mind psychic aura size, mantles (must be chosen from Chaos, Consumption, Corruption and Madness, Destruction, Evil, or Pain and Suffering) 
Dragonfire adept breath weapon and invocations/invocations known
Dragon shaman draconic aura (*not* auras known) and breath weapon
Duskblade arcane channeling and spellcasting
Factotum inspiration points and arcane dilettante
Fighter bonus feats, feats/abilities from alternate class features in _Dragon_ 310, thane feats, thug feats, elusive attack
Hexblade curse and spellcasting
Lurk augment, powers known, power points, psionic sneak attack
Marshal major aura (*not* auras known) and adrenaline boost or grant move action
Monk flailing strike, unarmed strike damage, AC bonus, and ki abilitiesChaos monk variant from DR335, ex-monks cannot advance monk class features
Mountebank deceptive attack
Ninja sudden strike and AC bonus
Paladin smite good, contagion/cause disease, and spellcasting
Psychic warrior power points, powers known, and bonus feats
Ranger favored enemy and spellcasting
Rogue sneak attack
Samurai honestly keep everything, either version, you've still made a terrible mistake and deserve what you get
Savant choose any two of: arcane lore/spellcasting, divine lore/spellcasting, sneak attack, skill assistance, talent lore.
Scout skirmish, sniper shot, and battle fortitude
Shadowcaster mysteries, bonus fundamentals, and sustaining shadow
Soulborn smite opposition (lawful good), soulmelds, essentia, maximum chakra binds, and open chakras
Soulknife psychic strike, mind blade, mind blade enhancement
Spellthief steal spell and spellcasting
Swashbuckler grace and dodge bonus
Truenamer see samurai... or a psychiatrist regarding your self-destructive tendencies
Warlock eldritch blast and invocations/invocations known
Wilder wild surge, power points, powers known


*Infestation (Su)* The ritual that forges a thrall's covenant with the Demon Prince of Vermin results in her body becoming riddled with countless Fine vermin - spiders, centipedes, scorpions, beetles, worms - that gradually deform her flesh in ways that ordinary society finds horrifying. Pustules, scabies, rashes, pockmarks, suppurating holes... these are only the beginning, as the touch of Obox-ob poisons not just the mind and soul but every part of the body. When dealing with non-evil creatures, a thrall of Obox-ob takes a penalty to Charisma-based skill checks to influence such creatures equal to her thrall of Obox-ob class level.

The infestation does not come without its benefits - the countless vermin crawl over flesh, coating it with their secretions, covering vulnerable areas, and leaving shed chitin strewn throughout the thrall's body. The thrall of Obox-ob gains 2 hp per hit die. Furthermore, the thrall's natural armor increases by 2 permanently unless she already possesses a chitinous exterior or exoskeleton, and the save DC of the distraction ability of vermin within 60 ft. of her increases to DC 10 + ½ her level + the better of the thrall's Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, provided it was lower than this value.

*Swarm Immunity (Ex)* Swarms no longer meaningfully bother the thrall of Obox-ob, who already hosts an entire swarm of vermin within her body. A thrall of Obox-ob is immune to the physical damage of a swarm's attack and the swarm's distraction ability. A swarm that can deal non-physical damage (for instance, fire, cold, electric etc.) or which can otherwise cause harm without distracting or physically attacking the thrall of Obox-ob may still cause the thrall to suffer those effects.

*Willing Deformity* A thrall of Obox-ob becomes horribly deformed as a result of the dark covenant with the Demon Prince of Vermin. At 3rd level, she gains Willing DeformityBoVD;HoH as a bonus feat as the degradation of her body begins to become overly apparent. A thrall who already possesses this feat may choose any of the following as a bonus feat instead: Abominable FormEE, Deformity (clawed hands)BoVD, Deformity (eyes)EE, Deformity (face)EE, Deformity (gaunt)EE, Deformity (madness)EE, Deformity (parasite)EE, Deformity (skin)HoH.

*Verminbond (Su)* A thrall of Obox-ob has in some way formed a bond with vermin via one of three feats - Vermin Companion, Verminfriend, or Verminous Graft. The abilities granted by these feats improve as the thrall of Obox-ob advances in level. If the thrall of Obox-ob possesses more than one of these feats, she gains all of the benefits linked to those feats which she possesses.

_Vermin Companion_
*Spoiler*
Show

Level
Benefit

2nd
Gain the benefits of Companion SpellbondPHB2 with your vermin companion

4th
Gain the benefits of Natural BondCAdv with your vermin companion

6th
Vermin companion gains bonus feat*

8th
Fiendish vermin companion


* Bonus feats are selected from Ability Focus, Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Athletic, Combat Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Improved Toughness, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Skill Focus, Stealthy, Weapon Focus.


_Verminfriend_
*Spoiler*
Show

Level
Benefit

2nd
DC 19, applies to verminlike magical beasts, will not attack allies

4th
DC 18, applies to verminlike aberrations, will become indifferent

6th
DC 17, applies to verminlike outsiders, will become friendly

8th
DC 16, applies to verminlike creatures, will become helpful





_Verminous Graft_
*Spoiler*
Show

Level
Benefit

2nd
2d6+Int damage, weaponized

4th
3d6+Int damage, +Int damage at the start of victim's next turn, weaponized

6th
4d6+Int damage, +Int damage at the start of victim's next turn, ranged touch 30 ft., weaponized

8th
5d6+Int damage, +Int damage at the start of victim's next turn, ranged touch 60 ft., weaponized



*Weaponized (Ex)* The verminous graft may be used to make iterative attacks. When used as part of a full attack, it employs its base damage of 1d6 + the thrall of Obox-ob's Intelligence modifier rather than the enhanced damage from the table, which still applies in any other circumstance.


*Power Over Vermin (Sp)* At 3rd level, a thrall of Obox-ob is endowed with Abyssal magic emanating from her vile patron, which she can wield to command and manipulate vermin. These spell-like abilities can be used at her discretion, limited only by her reserve of vile power. The thrall of Obox-ob chooses Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, and adds the bonus from that ability score to her thrall of Obox-ob level to determine her daily reserve of vile power; once chosen, this cannot be changed. Vile power can be expended at the following costs on the following spell-like abilities, cast at the thrall's character level:

*Spoiler: Vile Power*
Show

1 point:
_align weapon_SC (chaotic or evil only), _calm vermin_ (as _calm animals_), _charm vermin_ (as _charm animals_), _decomposition_SC, _detect vermin_ (as _detect animals or plants_), _enrage vermin_ (as _enrage animal_SC), _healing sting_SC, _hold vermin_ (as _hold animal_), _horrible taste_SC, _magic fang_ (self or vermin only), _speak with vermin_ (as _speak with animals_), _spider climb_, _spider hand_BoVD, _vermin messenger_ (as _animal messenger_), _vermin trance_ (as _animal trance_)

2 points:
_armored vermin_DotU, _blight_, _chitinskin_ (self or vermin only, also grants DR 5/bludgeoning), _contagion_, _dominate vermin_DotU, _giant vermin_, _greater magic fang_ (self or vermin only), _infestation of maggots_SC, _jagged tooth_SC (self or vermin only), _poison_, _prickling torment_CM, _repel vermin_, _summon swarm_ (spiders only), _wall of vermin_CS, _web_

4 points:
_awaken vermin_ (as _awaken_ but vermin only and 2d6+1 Intelligence), _crawling darkness_SC, _doom scarabs_PHB2, _insect plague_, _mass contagion_SC, _prying eyes_

8 points:
_creeping doom_, _greater prying eyes_, _pestilence_BoVD, _wall of maggots_DR300

Any abilities based on spells that would normally exclusively affect or regard animals instead affect only vermin, and not animals. Any abilities based on spells with the mind-affecting descriptor bypass the Mindless ability of vermin, but have no effect on mindless creatures of other types.


*Summon Ekolid (Sp)* At 5th level, the thrall of Obox-ob has demonstrated sufficient competence and servility to be rewarded with one of Obox-ob's own demonic servants at her command. By expending 4 points of vile power, she can call forth an ekolidFCI to serve her. This ability functions as the spell _summon monster V_, using the thrall's character level as her caster level. Above 5th level, the thrall of Obox-ob can also call upon one of the ekolids of Zionyn; these ekolids are dangerous individuals who have pursued advanced skills as a bard, cleric, ranger, or rogue. Beginning at 6th level, the thrall of Obox-ob can expend additional vile power when summoning an ekolid to bring forth such an individual instead. The maximum level held by such an ekolid is equal to the thrall of Obox-ob's class level minus 5 (so, for example, a 7th level thrall of Obox-ob can summon an ekolid with 2 levels). The additional cost is equal to the number of levels the ekolid possesses (1 point for 1 level, 2 for 2, etc.)

A thrall of Obox-ob can only summon a single ekolid at a time; if she uses this ability a second time while the first ekolid is still active, that first ekolid immediately vanishes. Regardless of level, a thrall of Obox-ob is always immune to any ekolid's form of madness (she's very aware that tiny insects *are* in fact infesting her flesh, it's a fact she's embraced, an ekolid has no more surprises for her). Obyriths called or summoned to the Prime Material Plane are likely to attract notice due to the damaging effects of their chaotic natures and forms of madness; a thrall of Obox-ob would be wise to employ this ability with care.

*Unknowable Horror (Ex)* By 5th level, the boundaries between the thrall and the vermin living within her have begun to blur, as their symbiosis increases. The thrall of Obox-ob chooses one ability score to increase by 2, but must also choose two ability scores to reduce by 1 each, a consequence of the infestation. Should the thrall of Obox-ob ever be reduced below 5th level in this class, she loses the ability score increase, but the penalties remain. These are permanent, untyped adjustments. The infestation also renders the thrall difficult to identify with divination magic, protecting her as per a permanent _nondetection_ effect with a caster level equal to the thrall's character level.

*Deformity (parasite)* As of 6th level, a thrall who has not completely succumbed to the infestation ravaging her body is finally marked by the unmistakable deformation caused by the parasites within her. She receives Deformity (parasite) as a bonus feat. A thrall who already possesses this feat may choose any of the following as a bonus feat instead: Abominable FormEE, Deformity (clawed hands)BoVD, Deformity (eyes)EE, Deformity (face)EE, Deformity (gaunt)EE, Deformity (madness)EE, Deformity (skin)HoH. 

*Shriek of Zionyn (Su)* At 7th level, the thrall of Obox-ob's connection with her dark master grows stronger. Three times per day as a standard action, she may unleash a chattering, hissing, discordant shriek emanating from the most profound depths of the Abyss. The shape of the shriek may be circular (20 ft. radius around the thrall) or conical (40 ft. cone) at her discretion, chosen each time she uses the ability. Those caught in the area of the shriek suffer 6d6 sonic damage (Fortitude half) and are deafened and _confused_ for 1d4 rounds (Will negates). Vermin are unaffected by this ability. The save DC is based on the higher of the thrall's Constitution or char and is equal to 10 + 1/2 the thrall's total HD + the relevant ability modifier. 

*Swarm Hive (Ex)* By 7th level, the thrall of Obox-ob is recognized as the home nest by the teeming and writhing vermin within her, and they will rise up to protect her when damaged. On taking at least 10 points of damage from a single attack or effect, the thrall may as an immediate action create a swarm of spiders, locusts, plague antsFF, waspsFF, scorpionsSand, or centipedes in her space. The swarm acts as though the thrall is an ally and acts on her initiative count as she directs (this does not require an action on the part of the thrall). It cannot move more than 60 ft. from the thrall of Obox-ob. The swarm will remain active for a number of rounds equal to the thrall of Obox-ob's class level before dispersing and returning to her body to rest and regain numbers. Whenever this ability activates, the thrall of Obox-ob must wait 1d4 rounds before this ability will trigger again.

*Profound Degradation (Ex)* At 9th level, the thrall of Obox-ob has become barely recognizable as anything close to what she once was, a living hive of vermin with the mocking tatters of an old identity covering it like a thin veil. She once more selects an ability score to raise by 2 points permanently, as well as two ability scores to decrease by 1 point each. Should the thrall of Obox-ob ever be reduced below 9th level in this class, she loses the ability score increase, but the penalties remain. These are permanent, untyped adjustments. The thrall of Obox-ob also must select one of the following deformity feats, which she gains as a bonus feat: Abominable FormEE, Deformity (clawed hands)BoVD, Deformity (eyes)EE, Deformity (face)EE, Deformity (gaunt)EE, Deformity (madness)EE, Deformity (skin)HoH.

*Gift of Obox-Ob (Su)* At 10th level, the thrall of Obox-ob receives the boon of second life from the Demon Prince of Vermin. If the thrall is killed, three swarms emerge from her body one hour later, each a different kind of vermin chosen from spiders, locusts, plague antsFF, waspsFF, scarab beetlesFF, bloodfiend locustsFF, scorpionsSand, or centipedes. These swarms act with the Intelligence and Charisma scores of the thrall of Obox-ob, animated by her will as she seeks to secure her return. The swarms must collectively kill a number of living non-vermin creatures whose total HD equals or exceeds twice that of the thrall of Obox-ob at the time of her death within a period of 24 hours plus a number of hours equal to the total of the thrall's Constitution, Intelligence, and Charisma modifiers. If this is accomplished, the swarms regroup over the next day and reform into the thrall of Obox-ob, who permanently loses 1 point of Charisma due to the experience but otherwise suffers no consequences for having been killed and restored to life. If the deadline is not met, the swarms gradually disperse as the corrupted soul of the thrall slips out of them and wends its way to its final, horrible fate. This ability functions for undead thralls as well, restoring them to unlife. The Charisma loss can be reversed via _greater restoration_, _limited wish_, _wish_, or _miracle_.

*Living Nightmare (Su)* At 10th level, any vestige of the thrall's original identity has been warped utterly beyond recognition due to deformity, degradation, and infestation. The thrall of Obox-ob is no longer treated as a member of their own race, type, and species for the purposes of abilities and effects created by others (abilities the thrall possesses remain unaffected). She suffers a permanent -4 penalty to Disguise checks to conceal her deformity or appear as a member of her own race, type, and species. Three times per day as a swift action, the thrall of Obox-ob may make an Intimidate check to demoralize all within 60 ft. who can see her. Those who are demoralized and fail a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the thrall's total HD + the thrall's Charisma modifier + the number of deformity feats the thrall possesses, including Willing Deformity and Abominable Form) suffer the effects of a _nightmare_ the next time they would sleep (no save).





> Is Io the Dragon Deity a good father to his children?


Sure why not. "Good" is subjective, after all. Edit: since this response was apparently not read correctly for the flippant statement it was intended to be, I will make my position very clear: *I refuse to provide an opinion on this question.*




> They already used the King in Yellow
> Then - why not the Crawling Chaos, or the Key and the Gate?


I'm not aware of anything in particular in D&D canon, outside of the unlicensed version of that book, which references The King In Yellow, which in any event is by Robert Chambers, not Lovecraft. Afrocanon is not going to incorporate the works of H.P. Lovecraft.




> Pretty bold claim - considering Pandorym have no stats


The book laid out already what its capabilities are when freed. If you intend to argue otherwise, I would ask that you start a separate thread for it as it is not germane to the purpose of this thread. I will not engage any further on the matter.




> But it have!..
> The "Age of Worms" is the best-known (but, likely, isn't the only) example


The Age of Worms in no way lays out how the multiverse will end as a result of it. Given how it was written, we actually have very little idea what the Age of Worms presages, apart from a host of unpleasantness for the particular world on which Kyuss manifests.

In any event, I have been away far too long and let this go on well beyond what it should have. Can we please get back on topic and away from Lovecraft et. al? Thank you!

----------


## Tzardok

Well, this is appropriately vile. Especialy the truenamer hate.  :Small Tongue: 

Small question on my own, inspired by a thread I read today: What's the dark on lamias? Where do they come from, and what exactly is the deal with lamia nobles?

----------


## afroakuma

> Well, this is appropriately vile. Especialy the truenamer hate.


I believe you mean "pity," sir.




> Small question on my own, inspired by a thread I read today: What's the dark on lamias? Where do they come from, and what exactly is the deal with lamia nobles?


It has been suggested that lamias may be the work of Pale Night, though there's only one attestation of that and it's not definitive. Curses have also been attested, and there is the suggestion that the strange ecology of the lamia species may point to a connection to chimerae and wemics. Lamias themselves do not know, though they're also not the kind to maintain a rigorous historical record.

----------


## Bartmanhomer

> Sure why not. "Good" is subjective, after all.


 Ok. I'll take your word for it.  :Smile:

----------


## DragonIceAdept

> -snip-


Looking really good, this is an absolutely splendid class. One question - the class table mentions Deformity (Parasite), but that's not in the class description. I assume it's just a bonus feat at 5th level?

----------


## afroakuma

> Ok. I'll take your word for it.


I don't know what to do with questions of that kind, I really don't. Io hasn't been personally encountered in I don't even know how long, off the top of my head. How do you translate that into "good father"-dom? Gods are bad parents to other gods almost by definition, because their children are *gods* - gifted with vast knowledge and abilities and not able to be tossed in time-out.

Please stop asking about things like this. The next time I see a question of this vein, you are going to be ignored. I don't want to be called on to arbitrarily decide who's nicer, Heironeous or Pelor; or who's got redder scales, Tiamat's red dragon neck or Sardior; or how Chauntea feels about Evening Glory; or whether Iyachtu Xvim ever thought of flirting with Talona. The answer to all of these is "this doesn't need a canonical answer, choose for yourself." If you want Io to be a good father, fine. Do that. If you want my endorsement? Go away. If my attempt at flippancy is not being registered correctly then I will spell it out to be very clear: *I refuse to provide an opinion on this question.*




> Looking really good, this is an absolutely splendid class. One question - the class table mentions Deformity (Parasite), but that's not in the class description. I assume it's just a bonus feat at 5th level?


Ahhh farts, I knew I missed something. Last time I do one of these for a while, dealing with HTML tables is a nightmare compared to the old markup format.  :Small Sigh: 

Corrected.

----------


## Bartmanhomer

> I don't know what to do with questions of that kind, I really don't. Io hasn't been personally encountered in I don't even know how long, off the top of my head. How do you translate that into "good father"-dom? Gods are bad parents to other gods almost by definition, because their children are *gods* - gifted with vast knowledge and abilities and not able to be tossed in time-out.
> 
> Please stop asking about things like this. The next time I see a question of this vein, you are going to be ignored. I don't want to be called on to arbitrarily decide who's nicer, Heironeous or Pelor; or who's got redder scales, Tiamat's red dragon neck or Sardior; or how Chauntea feels about Evening Glory; or whether Iyachtu Xvim ever thought of flirting with Talona. The answer to all of these is "this doesn't need a canonical answer, choose for yourself." If you want Io to be a good father, fine. Do that. If you want my endorsement? Go away. If my attempt at flippancy is not being registered correctly then I will spell it out to be very clear: *I refuse to provide an opinion on this question.*


I'm sorry if my question annoyed you. I was just only asking a simple basic question. That's all.

----------


## afroakuma

> I'm sorry if my question annoyed you. I was just only asking a simple basic question. That's all.


In fairness to you, I may be in a cranky mood right now for unrelated reasons.

To be clear, though, when I say "sure, why not?" it does not mean I am agreeing with or supporting something, it means I am disinterested in filing an opinion and asking you to choose for yourself.

----------


## Fable Wright

This may be a conjectural question, but:

Why is the creation of undead tied closer to religious power than arcane power? In D&D 3.5e, Animate Dead/Create Undead are easier for Divine spellcasters to cast, and they have Rebuke/Control/Turn/Destroy undead even without the use of slots. Gods, though, are across the Astral plane from mortals, while Positive/Negative energy are across the Ethereal. Outer plane sources channelling inner plane power to material plane miracle-workers seems incredibly inefficient. So why are divine beings interested in this to the point of subsidizing the magic for divine casters?

----------


## Bartmanhomer

> In fairness to you, I may be in a cranky mood right now for unrelated reasons.
> 
> To be clear, though, when I say "sure, why not?" it does not mean I am agreeing with or supporting something, it means I am disinterested in filing an opinion and asking you to choose for yourself.


Ok. Good to know. I'm sorry that you're in a bad mood.  :Frown:

----------


## Bohandas

> I'm not aware of anything in particular in D&D canon, outside of the unlicensed version of that book, which references The King In Yellow, which in any event is by Robert Chambers, not Lovecraft. Afrocanon is not going to incorporate the works of H.P. Lovecraft.


It's in Dungeon issue 134. A group of bards put on performances of _The King In Yellow_ to summon a bunch of crazy crap from Carcosa

----------


## Thurbane

Dungeon Mag is pretty borderline as being D&D canon. Adventures written largely by non-staff contributors, and published (under license) by a third party publisher.

----------


## Eldan

> I'm sorry if my question annoyed you. I was just only asking a simple basic question. That's all.


The problem is, your questions aren't simple basic questions. THey are unanswerable.

----------


## Bartmanhomer

> The problem is, your questions aren't simple basic questions. THey are unanswerable.


Ok. I get that.

----------


## tyckspoon

> This may be a conjectural question, but:
> 
> Why is the creation of undead tied closer to religious power than arcane power? In D&D 3.5e, Animate Dead/Create Undead are easier for Divine spellcasters to cast, and they have Rebuke/Control/Turn/Destroy undead even without the use of slots. Gods, though, are across the Astral plane from mortals, while Positive/Negative energy are across the Ethereal. Outer plane sources channelling inner plane power to material plane miracle-workers seems incredibly inefficient. So why are divine beings interested in this to the point of subsidizing the magic for divine casters?


Possibly because the creation of undead touches on the manipulation and handling of souls, which is definitely more the realm of the divine than arcane? A purely arcane approach to making undead would likely end up creating things more similar to animated objects and golems than Undead - stuff that is given an animating power or bound to an elemental spirit, but lacks the sort of inherent not-quite-life nature that makes Undead.. uh, Undead.

The association of Positive Energy = Good = Good heroes turn or destroy undead while Negative Energy = Evil = the Evil champions of Evil Gods control undead servitors probably has more to do with old D&D tropes than any consideration of how the planes work.

----------


## Fable Wright

> Possibly because the creation of undead touches on the manipulation and handling of souls, which is definitely more the realm of the divine than arcane?


Well, the issue with that is that animals don't appear to have souls, but making undead animals is no more difficult than making undead humanoids. Also... if undead are soulstuff rather than beings of negative energy, why are _they_ healed by negative energy when outsiders aren't?




> The association of Positive Energy = Good = Good heroes turn or destroy undead while Negative Energy = Evil = the Evil champions of Evil Gods control undead servitors probably has more to do with old D&D tropes than any consideration of how the planes work.


Well yeah, I get _that._  :Small Tongue: 

Just trying to figure out why that might be the case in universe.

----------


## Tzardok

Animals have souls; that has been established often enough in this thread. They canonically go to the Beastlands after death.

----------


## afroakuma

> This may be a conjectural question, but:
> 
> Why is the creation of undead tied closer to religious power than arcane power? In D&D 3.5e, Animate Dead/Create Undead are easier for Divine spellcasters to cast, and they have Rebuke/Control/Turn/Destroy undead even without the use of slots. Gods, though, are across the Astral plane from mortals, while Positive/Negative energy are across the Ethereal. Outer plane sources channelling inner plane power to material plane miracle-workers seems incredibly inefficient. So why are divine beings interested in this to the point of subsidizing the magic for divine casters?


I wouldn't call it a subsidy, really; more of an insight into the different priorities in the structure of arcane magic. The practice of arcane magic was developed by different peoples with different priorities, but by and large the trend was not toward facilitating necromancy. _Animate dead_ is by no means the only necromancy spell that clerics can do earlier than sorcerers and wizards - see _contagion_ and _bestow curse_ for example. It's also a pretty trivial way to create undead, in the grand scheme of things - as a spell, it takes a corpse and channels negative energy into it to create an animus that inhabits the dead body and moves it. Channelling positive and negative energy is more in the province of clerics because the antecedents of modern arcane magical practice put less of a premium on tapping the energy planes, which is harder to do efficiently due to arcane magic tapping into verbal and material components to assist in the harnessing, shaping, and direction of power (there are no languages for these planes, and neither is material). Conversely, deities have hard connections to life and death thanks to the soul cycle - it is much easier for a divine source to move positive and negative energy here and there.

When looking at more potent methods, those which create intelligent undead, there is no difference between divine and arcane - you're not merely channelling energy at that point. In the case of _create undead_, it's actually a fusion of arcane and divine elements adapted by both - note the presence of the onyx gems as material components as well as ceremonial components such as grave dirt and brackish water. 




> Dungeon Mag is pretty borderline as being D&D canon. Adventures written largely by non-staff contributors, and published (under license) by a third party publisher.


For the most part, if Dungeon published it as a D&D adventure, it's considered part of canon for this thread. That said, of course, only elements within that adventure itself would be canonical; anything not represented in the adventure from the same source material would be irrelevant. 




> Well, the issue with that is that animals don't appear to have souls.


Yes they do. Oozes, microorganisms, and nonsentient plants don't. Also vermin.

----------


## ShurikVch

> This may be a conjectural question, but:
> 
> Why is the creation of undead tied closer to religious power than arcane power? In D&D 3.5e, Animate Dead/Create Undead are easier for Divine spellcasters to cast, and they have Rebuke/Control/Turn/Destroy undead even without the use of slots.


Note: Dread Necromancer have Rebuke Undead too - despite being arcane caster
Moreover: Death Master gets _Animate Dead_ as 2nd-level spell: it's lower than for most divine casters (Divine Crusader may get it on the same class level, but it's PrC with BAB +7 requirement...)





> Well, the issue with that is that animals don't appear to have souls, but making undead animals is no more difficult than making undead humanoids.





> Animals have souls; that has been established often enough in this thread. They canonically go to the Beastlands after death.


While it's true for Animals, Mindless creatures are less clear cut
Death Giants and Kir-lanan are have no souls explicitly





> every adventure canonically assumes the adventures win, after all


Yes. That's why they include "If you failed" section - because you're always win...





> The biggest difference is the abilities a typical dnd character has vastly outstrips anything a protagonist in a cthulhu mythos has.  Reshaping reality on a whim is something high level casters just do.


Hey, stop right there!..
You said "_a typical dnd character_", then "_high level casters_".
A "typical dnd character" isn't high level at all (and absolutely not necessary a caster)
While high-level caster may be, in theory, impervious to anything but DM fiat, low-level casters are, for example, dying being eaten by rats...
I don't see what E6 (or even, for that matter, E10) caster can do versus Cthulhu





> A high level fighter could get rammed by a boat and brush it off.


I severely doubt it: Carrack - with strong wind - do on average 147 ramming damage
Even 20th-level Fighter may be one-shot by it (at least, presuming no Improved Toughness, Diehard, or racial Con bonus), and would need to make a save versus Massive Damage regardless




> Most adventures are pcs trying to stop horrific things or people from doing some destructive or world changing event.  Just swap Ashardalon for Cthulhu or the like and it plays out almost identically.  Mind blank prebuff over energy immunity.


Depending on which Sanity rules we using, Mind Blank may not work
Also, we already have example of iconic characters fighting the literal Cthulhu:



Spoiler: they were losing badly, until Mialee hit him with Imprisonment...





> Suddenly I feel the urge to run a game where the PCs are eldritch horrors driving NPCs mad with their unknowable actions... Might be kinda fun with the right group.


IIRR, the _Savage Tide_ adventure path at some point allow you to "play" as one of powerful beings you're allied with - just to get the taste of how powerful they really are
I can't find this text right now, but your allies there are: Charon, Gwynharwyf, Iggwilv, Malcanthet, and even Orcus!.. (A heck of a party!)





> Typing that I thought the same thing.  Or flip it.  E6 game vs. normal high level players.  Captures the feel better.


Question: isn't it standard for adventures to villain of much higher level than the party?
In some cases, level difference is up to 12 levels (_The Lich Queen's Beloved_)
Or, heck, remember what Tarquin did during the confrontation! (And he's a Fighter - for crying out loud!)





> The Age of Worms in no way lays out how the multiverse will end as a result of it. Given how it was written, we actually have very little idea what the Age of Worms presages, apart from a host of unpleasantness for the particular world on which Kyuss manifests.


There it is:



> *WHAT IF THEY FAIL?* 
> 
> If the PCs fail to slay Kyuss within a week (or worse; if they are themselves slain), nothing can be done to prevent the Age of Worms. Over the next several days, the world slips into an era of writhing doom. Kyuss worms rain from the sky over certain parts of the world. Corpses rise within minutes of death as undead. Cities are attacked by flights of broodfiends and razed in hours. The cult of Kyuss ascends, quickly becoming one of the most powerful religions in the world. These events are not caused by Kyuss, but are in fact caused by something greater, something beyond even the gods themselves. Reclaiming the world from the Age of Worms and discovering what nameless threat is behind the apocalypse can be the foundation for an entire new campaign -  one for epic-level heroes desperate to correct what they, in their failure, unleashed upon the world.






> The book laid out already what its capabilities are when freed. If you intend to argue otherwise, I would ask that you start a separate thread for it as it is not germane to the purpose of this thread. I will not engage any further on the matter.


IMHO, it's excessive, but if you insisting - there we go!..

----------


## Lapak

> There it is:


What in that says anything about the multiverse ending? It doesn't even suggest that the one Material Plane world ends, as it explicitly sets up a post-failure adventure to undo it, calls the Cult 'one of the most powerful religions in the world' rather than the only power remaining, talks about vast regions being wiped out (which suggests other regions are not, etc.)

World-upending consequences that will at best leave devastation in their wake, yes; end of the multiverse, categorically no. As afro said in your quote: lots of unpleasantness for the world on which it is unleashed.

----------


## enderlord99

That... doesn't describe what happens to the _Multiverse_ merely "the world."

That is to say, one(*1*) planet within the Prime Material Plane, or *AT MOST* one(*1*) Crystal Sphere.

----------


## Tzardok

{Scrubbed}

----------


## ShurikVch

> What in that says anything about the multiverse ending?





> That... doesn't describe what happens to the _Multiverse_ merely "the world."


Note: powerful deities are able to reach into another spheres: like Lolth and Gruumsh are present on multiple worlds
Once Kyuss is "one of the most powerful religions in the world" - what would prevent it from crawling into other spheres?




> {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}.


It's untrue: I'm accepting *well-proved* alternate view points
So far, I got just a metric ton of opinions ("My thread - my canon!") and very very little of actual proofs

----------


## enderlord99

> Note: powerful deities are able to reach into another spheres: like Lolth and Gruumsh are present on multiple worlds


Correct.



> Once Kyuss is "one of the most powerful religions in the world" - what would prevent it from crawling into other spheres?


Nothing.  It definitely could, and almost certainly would, expand into other spheres.  It might even, eventually, cause apocalyptic conditions on every world it reaches (although that's pure conjecture, of the sort you claim to ignore)

It would not, however, reach *every* sphere simply because there are (from a Wattsonian perspective) literally infinite of them.  Someone else can find the source on that (it's definitely in a Spelljammer product) because I won't bother right now.

Anyway, even if it somehow conquered all  spheres in their entirety... the Prime is not the Multiverse. Nowhere in your quoteblock was there _any_ mention of the Elemental Planes, or the Positive- and Negative-energy Planes, or the Para-Elemental Planes, or the Outer Planes, or the Astral Plane, or the Ethereal Plane, or the Plane of Shadow, or the Plane of Mirrors, or anywhere but "The World."

----------


## afroakuma

> Also, we already have example of iconic characters fighting the literal Cthulhu:
> 
> Spoiler: they were losing badly, until Mialee hit him with Imprisonment...


That image comes from a product which was not released under the D&D brand. d20 Call of Cthulhu is a different game with an appendix regarding compatibility with material from D&D. As I have said previously, Lovecraftian canon is not part of D&D or relevant to this thread. If you dispute that, you are more than welcome to begin a separate thread on which this topic would be germane.




> There it is:


..a paragraph which multiple times specifies bad things happening to "the world" and on no occasion mentions the multiverse, other planes, or even other planets? If that's your interpretation, you're welcome to it, but that's all it is - an interpretation. This text does not serve as any kind of evidence.




> Note: powerful deities are able to reach into another spheres: like Lolth and Gruumsh are present on multiple worlds
> Once Kyuss is "one of the most powerful religions in the world" - what would prevent it from crawling into other spheres?


It would need its representatives to get from Point A to Point B, and in sufficient numbers/with sufficient power to build his faith on those worlds. He can't just shove a priest through a _gate_ and boom, instant access. If Kyuss annexed, say, Oerth, and then set his sights on Toril, he'd have to petition Ao for entry. If the world of Oerth was as destroyed as you infer from the above, Ao wouldn't let him in.




> So far, I got just a metric ton of opinions ("My thread - my canon!")


Literally the purpose of the thread. If it's not for you, you are quite welcome to make your own and share your viewpoints with interested parties there.

----------


## Edreyn

I finally have some new questions.

1) Again, about the Carceri we discussed so much. How the generic approach of "crabs in a bucket" works with deities who live there? I mean actually trapped there, like Malar, and not living willingly like Vhaeraun.
All deities have no choice but to want to be worshipped, and hence be dependent on mortals. Also, Malar does seem to care about his petitioners in afterlife, as much as CE deity can - they become predators and not prey. In comparison, Lloth tortures all her unlucky servants. So, how is Carceri ideology works with deities like Malar?

2) And the good plane of Elysium. I read that it has a feature similar to one of Grey Waste: if someone stays there too long, he no longer wants to leave, and at some point becomes a petitioner.

First question is more subjective and phylosophical. Why someone won't want this?! Don't ALL who believe in happy afterlife want to go there while still alive?

Other questions are actually about rules.

Remember when I asked if an evil person can evade going to Lower Planes by magic means? So, what if evil guy goes to Elysium and stays until merging? The locals are merciful, I don't believe they will attack or banish someone who is evil, but of small status, not a lich or tyrant, but let's say one of their followers.

What of those who made a pact with Baatezu? Can they avoid their fate by going to Elysium and staying long enough to become petitioners? Again, I believe locals could agree to shelter them, those striking pacts with Baatezu are obviosly idiots, but maybe not evil beyond redemption. Locals might even be happy that someone truly bad loses a grip of someone's soul. And Baatezu won't be able to "sue" the very Plane itself!

3) Many of Baator layers have large cities. How would a mortal find them - beautiful, though somewhat scary or completely disgusting? I mean only visual, smell etc, in case when a mortal is safe from any harm, like if he is watching those cities with sensory stone.

----------


## enderlord99

Going to Elysium most definitely won't save you from a Pact Certain, no matter how long you (try to) stay there.

The only possibilities after death for someone who has agreed to one of those are "Soul goes to Baator" and "Soul is destroyed before it can go to Baator."  The former is vastly more likely.

----------


## Edreyn

But it seems that those "trapped" in Elysium become petitioners without actually dying. Though I don't know how it's different by Planescape rules.

----------


## Thurbane

That raises a question for me: is there anywhere that prevents souls from going to their destination plane? The mists of Ravenloft, or anything similar?

If yes, what happens to a departed soul if it can't move on to it's afterlife? Does it become an undead?

----------


## Tzardok

> That raises a question for me: is there anywhere that prevents souls from going to their destination plane? The mists of Ravenloft, or anything similar?
> 
> If yes, what happens to a departed soul if it can't move on to it's afterlife? Does it become an undead?


There are a few places. Nothing that goes into the Demiplane of Imprisonment gets out. Roughly 99% of the souls of people dying on Athas get stuck in the Grey on their way to the Outer Planes and erode to nothing over the following centuries. Some speculate that the Demiplane of Dread recycles souls for new inhabitants instead of letting them out. Also, I would assume that finding your way to your proper afterlife will be... difficult if you die in the Far Realms.

----------


## Fable Wright

> Some speculate that the Demiplane of Dread recycles souls for new inhabitants instead of letting them out.


This is made explicit and a plot point in 5e's _Curse of Strahd_ module. Many people are born without souls; the rest are born with recycled souls or come from outside; and all the other souls are locked into the mists. Not sure how canon that is in this thread, but it's supporting evidence.

----------


## Dalmosh

Stoked you're back Afro, and hope you're feeling a bit better.

1. Assuming a Wightpocalypse able to produce templated Wight animals (e.g. using the alternative template in Dragon 300, but for whatever reason ignoring the fluff that non-humanoid Wights are very rare)...

To what extent would Wight animals continue to differentiate themselves behaviourally and ecologically from other Wight animals of different kinds?  Would this horde be fairly uniform in how it acts (aside from different intelligence from 0-2)?  Or would these undead tend to emulate their original natural behaviours and habits aside from an urge to drain the energy of living things?
Would you see things like territoriality, kinship and habitat selectivity?  Would a hive of Wight ants keep working together?
Would the answer be different for an event that instead produced free-roaming animal Zombies?

2. If one was a Githzerai living in one of the big population centres like ShraÂktÂlor or Zerth'Ad'lun, as a low-level bog standard Commoner or Expert, what would life be like?  What sorts of things do generic urban Githzerai get up to and how would this be different from what you'd see in a human city?

3. If you feel like speculating, and wanted to expand on the throwaway referenced Demon Lord Alrunes the Soothing Spirit (Protection/Sisterhood portfolio) which direction would you go in? 
Anything I come up with ends up feeling a bit too LE or NE for a Demon Lord.

----------


## afroakuma

> 1) Again, about the Carceri we discussed so much. How the generic approach of "crabs in a bucket" works with deities who live there? I mean actually trapped there, like Malar, and not living willingfully luke Vhaeraun.


Most of them are chained there by their own spite. The power of Carceri is the power to get you digging your own grave.




> All deities have no choice but to want to be worshipped, and hence be dependent on mortals. Also, Malar does seem to care about his petitioners in afterlife, as much as CE deity can - they become predators and not prey. In comparison, Lloth tortures all her unlucky servants. So, how is Carceri ideology works with deities like Malar?


Deities don't need to situate their divine realms on planes germane to their attitudes toward their petitioners. Colothys happens to be a very suitable environment for Malar - the unforgiving rocky cliffs and canyons are a place of scarce resources, and the layer operates on survival of the fittest. 




> 2) And the good plane of Elysium. I read that it has a feature similar to one of Grey Waste: if someone stays there too long, he no longer wants to leave, and at some point becomes a petitioner.
> 
> First question is more subjective and phylosophical. Why someone won't want this?! Don't ALL who believe in happy afterlife want to go there while still alive?


Imagine I put you in a room, removed from friends and family, removed from all of your hobbies, everything you care about, anything which might draw your interest, and give you a button marked "happy." When you press it, you feel a sense of happiness for a little while. That's all you get. Eventually you will starve to death or die of thirst, but you'll die happy.

Some people would choose that. Some people choose heroin, etc. etc. but the life I've described is absent any kind of fulfillment. It's bliss without purpose. What are you happy about? Nothing, really, you just are. What can you do with that happiness? Nothing, really. Anyone else nearby doesn't need you to share yours, they've got their own. It's toxic, happiness without purpose.




> Remember when I asked if an evil person can evade going to Lower Planes by magic means? So, what if evil guy goes to Elysium and stays until merging? The locals are merciful, I don't believe they will attack or banish someone who is evil, but of small status, not a lich or tyrant, but let's say one of their followers.


Yep, Elysium can absolutely get someone with no prior stronger claim on their soul, but again, you are vastly overestimating how good a fate that would be. In the Lower Planes, an evil being might be rolling the dice on torture, but they're also rolling the dice on more power, more opportunity, more choice, *more* of what they like about their lives. On Elysium, they would lose everything they care about to wither into a happy little eggshell and die without relevance, without power, without opportunity, without choice.

Most importantly, the locals *know* that, and the guardinals make efforts to stop people from getting entrapped. They don't want it to happen even to good-aligned beings. An evil-aligned being on the plane would be frogmarched out at best. Guardinals are empowered to make hard choices when needed.

It is important to remember that *the entrapping power of Elysium is a bad thing.* It's an unintended consequence of the plane being what it is, and every bit as awful as being poisoned to death with morphine, except it also erases your afterlife by turning you into a lawn ornament. Ever seen a debate about the real morality of _sanctify the wicked_? Imagine if it also killed you and denied you getting to join with a deity or progress as an outsider in service to anything. Souls that become petitioners due to entrapment aren't those who have done exceptional good, they are those who have experienced exceptional good and had their identities smooshed into asphalt by it. They become pavement.

I deeply hate spoiling anything about this show because it's so good, but it really is the best argument for the case.

*Spoiler: Spoilers for a TV comedy*
Show

*Spoiler: About the afterlife*
Show

*Spoiler: It's The Good Place, you should really just go watch it all...*
Show

The problem with Elysium, in a nutshell.







> What of those who made a pact with Baatezu? Can they avoid their fate by going to Elysium and staying long enough to become petitioners?


Nope. The devils would have gotten wise to that one millennia ago and ensured their contracts wouldn't be slipped by such an obvious move.




> 3) Many of Baator layers have large cities. How would a mortal find them - beautiful, though somewhat scary or completely disgusting? I mean only visual, smell etc, in case when a mortal is safe from any harm, like if he is watching those cities with sensory stone.


Scary, ominous, disgusting... varies by city, but even the most arguably beautiful cities of Hell are built with qualities that are inherently twisted toward diabolical sensibilities. You'd find those slowly crumbling on Maladomini, because that's what Baalzebul is all about. Looking into Baator at all is a haunting experience for most mortals, same as any Outer Plane.




> That raises a question for me: is there anywhere that prevents souls from going to their destination plane? The mists of Ravenloft, or anything similar?
> 
> If yes, what happens to a departed soul if it can't move on to it's afterlife? Does it become an undead?


We believe the Demiplane of Dread keeps hold of souls that have entered, except at the discretion of the Dark Powers. The Gray of Athas certainly does; it's a metaphysical trap for souls of the deceased, which might escape back to Athas as undead, or slowly degrade and decay in the endless nothing of the Gray. The Demiplane of Imprisonment lets nothing out - get caught, and you're going nowhere, ever. Some other strange planar sites have demonstrated this quality as well - the Boundless, for example. The Far Realm, being a part of no cosmology, cares nothing for the rules of this one.

A soul somehow trapped in none of these places or otherwise restricted from heading off to its assigned rest is likely to result in an incorporeal undead of some stripe or other, yes.




> Stoked you're back Afro, and hope you're feeling a bit better.


Why thank you!




> To what extent would Wight animals continue to differentiate themselves behaviourally and ecologically from other Wight animals of different kinds?  Would this horde be fairly uniform in how it acts (aside from different intelligence from 0-2)?  Or would these undead tend to emulate their original natural behaviours and habits aside from an urge to drain the energy of living things?
> Would you see things like territoriality, kinship and habitat selectivity?  Would a hive of Wight ants keep working together?
> Would the answer be different for an event that instead produced free-roaming animal Zombies?


Wights are driven by an inescapable craving to consume life energy. Regardless of intelligence, that would be their sole motivation, and you would see wight animals follow that same pattern - their original behaviors wouldn't enter into it. Their motivation for existence and activity has changed irrevocably. 

Zombies, unlike wights, have no motivation. Unless provided specific instruction by the magic that created them, or some other magic to steer them, zombie animals wouldn't pick up their old habits from life; unless prompted to attack something, they would most likely just stand still and wait, unless ordered to wander or patrol. Remember that a zombie isn't even a shadow of what it was in life, just the flesh and bones of something that was once alive. A wight knows what it once was and does not care.




> 2. If one was a Githzerai living in one of the big population centres like ShraÂktÂlor or Zerth'Ad'lun, as a low-level bog standard Commoner or Expert, what would life be like?  What sorts of things do generic urban Githzerai get up to and how would this be different from what you'd see in a human city?


I mean, you'd venture outside less; no easy access to a rural getaway or marketplace. For the most part life would be pretty similar; commoners are more than likely laborers of some stripe, while experts fill all sorts of skilled roles ranging from masons to scholars to cobblers. Githzerai have shoes, too.  :Small Tongue:  The main thing githzerai have that would not be common in a human city, for instance, would be the monasteries - quite simply there are more of them. They are also more likely to have schools for psionic training/associations for psionic individuals than the mage guilds of human cities.




> 3. If you feel like speculating, and wanted to expand on the throwaway referenced Demon Lord Alrunes the Soothing Spirit (Protection/Sisterhood portfolio) which direction would you go in? 
> Anything I come up with ends up feeling a bit too LE or NE for a Demon Lord.


Alrunes is a nasty piece of work, a mother of monsters and patron of hags for whom Cegilune is just too darn tame. One of many unpleasant foundations for the idea of the "evil witch coven," Alrunes offers her dark services with the express aim of suborning black magic. Those who are willing to go outside the laws of gods and mortals in search of ways to protect themselves or their loved ones find a friendly ear and comforting presence in the darkness they turn to, a "soothing spirit" who nurses their fears and reassures them that they are justified in doing what they feel they must. Unlike devils, who will set a clear price for the services they offer, Alrunes makes no contracts and is more subtle in her preferred form of payment. She will allow signs and portents to leak through that expose the secrets of her supplicants to those they desired to protect, ultimately making them into sources of fear and loathing. The methods she supplies, too, will often be horrific in nature - a tax collector found torn limb from limb with his blood dousing the lintels of the supplicant's home; a local baron and his horse dragged underground by monstrous roots and thorns; the town gossip poisoned in a way that leaves her swollen and discolored, rotting into a pile of mulch from which eerie singing flowers grow.

Ultimately, her goals are to gather women who have been exiled from society either through the wickedness of others or in the wake of her "gifts" running their course, at which time they have no one else to turn to. Alrunes offers many avenues to power in her service, from transformation into monsters of feminine aspect to the secrets of black magic. As the Dark Sisterhood grows, Alrunes schemes to use its power to make a bid for Princedom and a layer of her very own, a goal she would pursue though it would extinguish every one of her followers. The distrust, frustration, and hopelessness she sows among those who have sought her aid and paid the price for it results in the Dark Sisterhood being a poisonous and backstabbing group, consumed by wrath and despair, whose only rule is that the coven protects its own from outsiders - but not from one another, certainly. Alrunes distrusts succubi and has a stealthy rivalry with Graz'zt, another patron of witches whose methodology is quite different and whose chosen victims are often young and virginal, as opposed to Alrunes who frequently seeks out mothers and wives.

Pacts with Alrunes are marked by tiny dolls kept in the home; these eerie tokens often give the impression of spying on members of the family, and visitors may swear the dolls have moved on their own, looking at them, or emitting sinister whispers. Supplicants of Alrunes take great care not to let these dolls be destroyed and know better than to cast them out, despite the curses that may accompany their presence - removing or destroying a doll also withdraws the protection of Alrunes, and she will gleefully dispatch the Dark Sisterhood to collect her price in blood when she is scorned in this way. Those few tomes that record the name of Alrunes are unanimous in their warnings that the demoness has but one goal - to destroy all that a desperate woman holds dear, in order to leave her nowhere else to turn.

Alrunes has dealings with the Unseelie Court and counts chaotic evil nymphs and dryads among her followers, as well fiendish lamiae, harpies, medusae, and hags.

----------


## aj77

Is Ilxendren actually the creator deity of the ixitxachitl, and if so why is he only worshipped by the ixzan?
How does he get along with Demogorgon, considering Demogorgon poaches the worship of half his race?
How do the Ilxendren worshipers get along with their Demogorgon worshiping kin?

----------


## Bohandas

> Nope. The devils would have gotten wise to that one millennia ago and ensured their contracts wouldn't be slipped by such an obvious move.


I'd suggest that the Abyss is probably a better chance for getting out of a diabolical contract, as they're the plane that's actively dedicated to screwing Baator over

----------


## Tzardok

> I'd suggest that the Abyss is probably a better chance for getting out of a diabolical contract, as they're the plane that's actively dedicated to screwing Baator over


Step one: Sell your soul to Fierna.

Step two: Go to Shendilavri, let yourself be corrupted and sacrificed to Malcanthet.

Step three: If you wouldn't be digested in inconceivable pain right now, you could watch the cat fight.  :Small Amused:

----------


## afroakuma

> Is Ilxendren actually the creator deity of the ixitxachitl, and if so why is he only worshipped by the ixzan?


He is not. He's not even the creator deity of the ixzan, as far as we know; Ilxendren arose during a time of profound religious schism and warfare amongst the ixzan. He's definitely bound to them as a patron racial deity, but unless he somehow survived an untold amount of time with a negligible worshipper base before reemerging with full power in a time when followers of Dagon, Demogorgon, and Panzuriel were locked in a century-long deadly conflict and actively purging heretics, there's no fathomable way he could be their creator. Now, the faithful of Ilxendren *believe* him to be, but the evidence for that is profoundly shaky.




> How does he get along with Demogorgon, considering Demogorgon poaches the worship of half his race?


They're both chaotic evil and not allied, so they do not get along, but Demogorgon has too many adversaries already to care about picking a fight with a demonic manta ray god over a worshipper base he doesn't particularly need, and Ilxendren already won the chess match on the ground and is, of course, a god - he doesn't bother with Demogorgon. There's no real overlap.




> How do the Ilxendren worshipers get along with their Demogorgon worshiping kin?


Poorly. Ixzan are substantially religious, not averse to infighting, violent and malefic, and of course a vast majority worship Ilxendren. Demogorgon worshippers are likely to be purged.

----------


## Bohandas

> Step one: Sell your soul to Fierna.
> 
> Step two: Go to Shendilavri, let yourself be corrupted and sacrificed to Malcanthet.
> 
> Step three: If you wouldn't be digested in inconceivable pain right now, you could watch the cat fight.


I was thinking more of jumping into the wells of darkness, or paying off the Lords of Woe to declare the contract invalid

----------


## Tzardok

How exactly is what a few upjumped demons say relevant to the bureaucracy and judicatur of the Nine Hells?  :Small Confused:

----------


## Bohandas

Well you'd have to stay in the Abyss, but at that point you're probably not going to heaven anyway

----------


## Efrate

Did the obyrith have a role in the war of law vs. chaos?  If so what? Or were all the chaos forces more or less proto something and once the abyss was more prominant they came into being?  Is there a link to the draeden?

----------


## Bohandas

The impression I'd gotten was that it started as obryiths vs. baatorans until they were overthrown by the tanarri and baatezu respectively

EDIT:
IIRC the battle of Pesh in particular was at least partly obryiths and their overcommitment to it led to their fall because the tanar'ri took advantage of it to rebel and the eladrins took advantage of it to retaliate for getting screwed over on that hostage exchange

----------


## Eldan

> Did the obyrith have a role in the war of law vs. chaos?  If so what? Or were all the chaos forces more or less proto something and once the abyss was more prominant they came into being?  Is there a link to the draeden?


I can't comment on the Baatorians much, but the chaotic side of the war of law and chaos was in fact mainly lead by Obyrith on the chaotic side. The Queen of Chaos and Miska the Wolf-spider are both Obyriths and they started the whole thing.

----------


## Tzardok

The Draeden had reclused themselves long before the War of Law and Chaos began. We don't know _exactly_ how the War started, but the driving force on Chaos' side were the Obyrith, led by the Queen of Chaos, and the one on Law's side were the Vaati, the Wind Dukes of Aqaa.

Edit: Miska was, in fact, a tana'ri. Him being the Queen's consort was the only thing keeping the other tana'ri from rebelling against her. When he was banished, well...

----------


## Tzardok

I have the impression that herogods and quasideities don't starve to death from lack of worship, that the fact that they aren't proper gods yet keeps them from this vulnerability. That would also preclude that a god dying from lack of worship would fall back into hero/quasigodhood on his way out. Is that correct or did I misunderstand something?

----------


## Thurbane

Besides deities and archfiends, what other classes of being can grant spells to worshippers? Elder Evils? Celestial Paragons? Others?

I know cleric can just worship an ideal, but that's not really what I'm getting at. Same with the Fiend of Blasphemy PrC.

I have a nagging feeling I've asked this before, so sorry for any repetition.

----------


## Tzardok

Celestial paragons can, obviously. I mean, they are planar lords just the archfiends (of course, Slaad lords and Primus too). Otherwise I would propably add archomentals to the mix, certain Far Realms entities (looking at you, Mak Thuum Ngatha), and of course the smattering of miscallanous things that defy categorization (like Apep).

----------


## afroakuma

> I have the impression that herogods and quasideities don't starve to death from lack of worship, that the fact that they aren't proper gods yet keeps them from this vulnerability. That would also preculde that a god dying from lack of worship would fall back into hero/quasigodhood on his way out. Is that correct or did I misunderstand something?


You are correct; in essence a hero-deity/quasi-deity has never been a full god. They have been touched by the essence of the divine in some way but it's not the whole of what they are, some portion of them is still mortal. Once a deity becomes a deity, that status is almost completely off the table for them. It would take some really bizarre and unique rite for a deity to be reduced to that status again. One *very* important distinction is that hero-deities who die are dead, they cannot be reborn through faith - their existence does not depend on it in either direction. The exception would be a hero-deity whose death in some way triggers an ascension to true divinity. 

Your basic hero-deity package is:

 Cha deflection bonus to AC
 Maximum HP
 Speed boost
 Immune to transformation, energy drain, ability drain, and ability damage.
 Immune to mind-affecting effects.
 DR 10/epic
 Fire resistance 5
 SR 32
 Cannot die from natural causes, cannot age

Hero-deities *can* convey spells to a select number of priests, but not of their own power - it has to be drawn (with approval) from a hero-deity's patron, though it can be flavored or shaped by the particular portfolio of the hero-deity. This is a heck of a limitation. They do not possess true divine realms, and have to establish residences the old-fashioned way. Some hero-deities possess unique abilities not unlike salient divine abilities, though certainly lower in overall power.

Oddly, for your own trivia reference, "quasi-deity" appears to have been originally used to refer to the absolute lowest state of divinity, with hero-deity one step above. By 3E standards, there is no meaningful distinction and these are effectively interchangeable.




> Besides deities and archfiends, what other classes of being can grant spells to worshippers? Elder Evils? Celestial Paragons? Others?


We have seen it from celestial paragons, archfiends, and Primus; it's likely the slaad lords *could*. Other very powerful planar beings tied to belief may have mechanisms by which to do so (e.g. Apep as Tzardok noted). Aboleth elder evils are likely able to, if they thought about it. "Elder Evil" in the sense of the sourcebook of the same name doesn't meaningfully serve as a category, considering the "group" includes a stillborn god (likely), a Far Realm abomination (not likely), extraterrestrial statue-entities (not a chance), a world-spanning ancient chaos monster (plausible), an extradimensional black hole with a 'tude (absolutely not, nor would it consider doing so), Jenova (no), a powerful demon who exploits atheism for power (yyyyyessssss? It would be profoundly ironic, but yes), a demigod (obviously), and a delusional horny mud puddle (I think you know my opinion on this one).

It's... *plausible*, through the use of a *lot* of shenanigans, that a kind of link or locus could be established between an archomental and the Prime which would allow the provision of a very limited amount of spellcasting ability, but such a caster would not be a true cleric and neither side would get a lot out of it. Archomentals don't have so much juice that they can afford to expend any on fleshsack twerps unless they have a *very* good reason. Spells might also be granted by a deity of common interest (e.g. Kaelthiere on behalf of Imix) on a temporary basis, though said deity will want something in exchange as they're not getting the faith.

----------


## ShurikVch

> That image comes from a product which was not released under the D&D brand. d20 Call of Cthulhu is a different game with an appendix regarding compatibility with material from D&D. As I have said previously, Lovecraftian canon is not part of D&D or relevant to this thread. If you dispute that, you are more than welcome to begin a separate thread on which this topic would be germane.


You're misunderstood it: I don't used this picture as a proof for Planescape/Mythos connection, but merely as illustration in conversation with *Efrate*:
They said Cthulhu would be trivial in D&D because of powerful adventures
I said: powerful adventures already met Cthulhu, and - while they won - it wasn't trivial
Their point was moot anyway - "well-prepared adventures able to beat even gods" is not just a well-known fact in D&D, but even predating 3E
(And even if Efrate meant "Mythos don't do it like that!" - it's still incorrect: it, occasionally, do: from Cthulhu rammed by a steamer to certain Faceless One which was beaten by Roman soldiers...)




> ..a paragraph which multiple times specifies bad things happening to "the world" and on no occasion mentions the multiverse, other planes, or even other planets? If that's your interpretation, you're welcome to it, but that's all it is - an interpretation. This text does not serve as any kind of evidence.


But "the world" isn't a set term - it can mean anything!
Say, let's take the World of Greyhawk boxed set:



It have the "world" in the name - thus, it's the world, yes?
But it also mention Demonweb Pits - and don't says it's on another world
Thus, Demonweb Pits are included in the world of Greyhawk
Thus, the whole Abyss
Thus, the whole Great Wheel...





> It would need its representatives to get from Point A to Point B, and in sufficient numbers/with sufficient power to build his faith on those worlds. He can't just shove a priest through a _gate_ and boom, instant access. If Kyuss annexed, say, Oerth, and then set his sights on Toril, he'd have to petition Ao for entry. If the world of Oerth was as destroyed as you infer from the above, Ao wouldn't let him in.


While it's good for Toril and Krynn, most settings just don't have equivalent powers
To whom Kyuss have petition to invade, say, Aebrynis, Jakandor, Nehwon, or Pelinore?
(Need he petition *at all* in this case?)




> Literally the purpose of the thread. If it's not for you, you are quite welcome to make your own and share your viewpoints with interested parties there.


I know it now
But I wasn't aware about it when I started that argument back then
Some warning in the OP would be nice (if only to avoid "... at your table!.." comebacks)

----------


## enderlord99

> (if only to avoid "... at your table!.." comebacks)


You're pretty much the only one here who has made those.

----------


## Bohandas

> While it's good for Toril and Krynn, most settings just don't have equivalent powers
> To whom Kyuss have petition to invade, say, Aebrynis, Jakandor, Nehwon, or Pelinore?


Plus, if he took over enough of those other settings he might eventually accumulate enough power to overpower Ao or the High God

----------


## Silly Name

> But "the world" isn't a set term - it can mean anything!


It's almost as if the writers expect players to understand plain English and not need to painstakingly define common-usage terms.




> It have the "world" in the name - thus, it's the world, yes?


No, it's a book.




> But it also mention Demonweb Pits - and don't says it's on another world


Sure it does - the Demonweb Pits are a layer of the Abyss, on another plane of existence from the planet Oerth. The Demonweb Pits are not part of "the world" in its most common use sense, the same way the Andromeda galaxy is part of our universe but not part of our "world".




> Thus, Demonweb Pits are included in the world of Greyhawk
> Thus, the whole Abyss
> Thus, the whole Great Wheel...


No, all this stuff is included in the _game setting_. Nobody would say every plane of the Great Wheel is part of Oerth, and Oeridian people talking about "the world" would be talking about their planet, not the totality of the Great Wheel.

----------


## ShurikVch

> The Demonweb Pits are not part of "the world"


But book doesn't said so

As I already said - "world" have no set definition, thus - completely depend on the speaker

----------


## Silly Name

> But book doesn't said so
> 
> As I already said - "world" have no set definition, thus - completely depend on the speaker


The book also doesn't define "hat", "boot", "leg", "bird", "sword", and, most critically, "and". Are we gonna argue that all those words mean whatever is most convenient to support the current argument?

----------


## ShurikVch

> The book also doesn't define "hat", "boot", "leg", "bird", "sword", and, most critically, "and". Are we gonna argue that all those words mean whatever is most convenient to support the current argument?


For the records: many - if not all of aforementioned words have many different definitions.
Your problem there: there is no *wrong* definition!
Just because you don't want me to be right, it doesn't make me any more wrong...

----------


## Fable Wright

> But "the world" isn't a set term - it can mean anything!
> Say, let's take the World of Greyhawk boxed set:
> 
> It have the "world" in the name - thus, it's the world, yes?
> But it also mention Demonweb Pits - and don't says it's on another world
> Thus, Demonweb Pits are included in the world of Greyhawk
> Thus, the whole Abyss
> Thus, the whole Great Wheel...


Let's take a book called The Country of England. In it, it mentions that a lord of France invaded England in 1066.
The book has "country" in the namethus, it's the country, yes?
But it also mentions Franceand doesn't spell out that France is another country. (The writer assumed people just knew that.)
Thus, France is included in the country of England.
Thus, all of Europe.
Thus, the planet earth is really the country of England...

(Sidenote: Expedition to the Demonweb Pits mentions that entire worlds are ensnared in the Demonweb Pits. This implies that 'a world' connected to the Demonweb Pits cannot include the Demonweb Pits, or else it would be an infinite recursive loop. By the same logic, a world doesn't include the entire Great Wheel, as that would be another recursive definition error.)

----------


## afroakuma

We appear to be going off on a tangent unrelated to the topic of the thread. I'd like to get it back on the rails, if we could. There is, as noted above, another open thread on that topic, which would be the place to further this discussion among those parties interested.




> Plus, if he took over enough of those other settings he might eventually accumulate enough power to overpower Ao or the High God


Not possible. The boundary between overpower and greater power is unrelated to belief.

----------


## Bohandas

> Not possible. The boundary between overpower and greater power is unrelated to belief.


Wasn't there a thing somewhere though where one of the Dead Three almost managed to defeat him?

And there's also the matter of Vecna successfully breaking into Sigil.

----------


## afroakuma

> Wasn't there a thing somewhere though where one of the Dead Three almost managed to defeat him?


...defeat Ao? No. I'm not even sure what you might be referring to... if it's the Tablets of Fate, Ao was using those to make a point and they were meaningless. Are you maybe thinking of Jergal?




> And there's also the matter of Vecna successfully breaking into Sigil.


...which has nothing to do with conquering worlds to become an overpower, specifically required a very unique confluence of circumstances Kyuss could never manage, and has been defended against by the Lady of Pain for any future attempt regardless. He was also inevitably doomed to fail; the Lady's next bid, as noted in the module itself, would have been to admit demigods to fight him on an even footing.

In any event, I am done debating this. None of the Elder Evils is written to be a threat to the multiverse in its entirety, and certainly they are not designed for it. I refuse to address any more questions on the matter. If you want to discuss why you think this or that Elder Evil is capable of punching above its weight class, start a thread as ShurikVch did.

----------


## Thurbane

OK, to try an move on to a different topic (_and again my memory isn't what it used to be, so sorry if this is a repeat question_): what's the deal with Yakfolk and Genies?

Specifically this:




> The yak folk are greatly disliked by all genies, but for reasons lost in antiquity, no genie can attack a yak folk. Genies sometimes work to thwart the yak folks plans or disrupt their lives in other, indirect ways, but even this is done cautiously because the genies know that if they antagonize the yak folk too much, the lives of enslaved jann will only become worse and their tasks more onerous.


Is the source of the relationship or history between the races touched on anywhere else?

Also, any idea why would evil Genies care how Yakfolk treat their enslaved Janni?

And on a somewhat related note: are there any notable Janni (or other Genikind) who have became adventurers? I found Aleam Valassar and Dwaecor, but would be interested to hear about others.

----------


## Tzardok

Yakfolk and their relationship with genies hail from the 2e Al-Qadim setting. There the Faceless God, the deity of the yakfolk, kicked the daos' collective faces in until they swore to serve the yakfolk for... a few centuries or so. His goal is, essentially, to enslave all the genies to his race. I'm pretty sure the thing that you quoted is a newer adaption of that old relationship.

----------


## Thurbane

> Yakfolk and their relationship with genies hail from the 2e Al-Qadim setting. There the Faceless God, the deity of the yakfolk, kicked the daos' collective faces in until they swore to serve the yakfolk for... a few centuries or so. His goal is, essentially, to enslave all the genies to his race. I'm pretty sure the thing that you quoted is a newer adaption of that old relationship.


Good to know - Al-Qadim was one of the 2E resources that I didn't own much material for.

My quote above is from the 3E MM2.

----------


## Bohandas

> Also, any idea why would evil Genies care how Yakfolk treat their enslaved Janni?


It could be a case of "It's only ok if _we_ do it" or of "those uppity mortals"

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## Tzardok

A face for the Faceless One, stats for the Statless One!

*The Faceless God,* NE Greater Power of the Etheral Plane
*Portfolio:* Yakfolk, genies and the elements, tyranny, slavery
*Symbol:* A yakfolk's fist clutching manacles
*Divine Realm:* Etheral/Yilyak
*Domains:* Air, Earth, Evil, Fire, Magic, Tyranny, Water
*Favoured Weapon:* Quarterstaff

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## Tzardok

Is the concept of a divine herald, as described for example in Complete Divine, just the older divine proxy under a new name or are there appreciable differences?

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## afroakuma

> Is the concept of a divine herald, as described for example in Complete Divine, just the older divine proxy under a new name or are there appreciable differences?


A herald is functionally a type of proxy, as "proxy" has two definitions for our purposes:

 A being specifically chosen by a power to act as their agent (a herald being such an emissary as dispatched to the Prime Material)
 A being invested with a fraction of a power's divinity to serve some role in the deity's stead.

Heralds are the one but not the other, and proxies for the most part do not serve in the role of herald. Many deities retain an invested proxy in their divine realms to handle mundane affairs, typically a favored cleric, paladin, or warrior of some stripe.

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## bekeleven

I'm not 100% sure this is the correct venue for me, but feel free to ignore or redirect. My question _involves_ planar travel, but it's... Well, here.




I'm looking for information related to qualifying for the War Mind (XPH), which can be done through use of the "an ancient text called the Talariic codex." In the war mind class body, it tells us that "The Talariic texts tell of the perfect warrior, a legend named Ununquam the Vanquisher, who lived many thousands of years ago but who achieved deeds that live on through the texts. " And that's about it; it also lists some principles of warfare the texts can teach.

Further information about the Talariic Codex could be found in Dragon 281 (March 2001)... I thought. You see, the Talariic people are refugees from a dead world that emigrated only a few centuries ago, and the book says the following of what they brought: "Unfortunately, most of these items were lost, left behind on Talaron when the the Talaire were forced to flee their homeworld. Only a few precious heirlooms were taken with them, and the Talaire guard those jealously. Their crafters have since made new psionic items..." which looks to me like most or all of the items of note they brought over were various Psionic/Universal items. If that were the case, the Talariic codex might be a recorded oral history or other reconstruction from postdiluvian times.

So, my questions fall into a range rather than being a quick one, unfortunately. *What, if anything, do we know about the codex?*

If you'd like more specificity: How does one get ahold of them? How much might they cost if purchased? How big/long are they? Are they magical, or just books? Besides Ununquam and a few Sun Tsu references, do we know _anything_ about their contents?

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## afroakuma

> I'm not 100% sure this is the correct venue for me, but feel free to ignore or redirect. My question _involves_ planar travel, but it's... Well, here.


Falls under "other oddities" and therefore qualifies. Virtually any lore question that doesn't touch on 4E and beyond is valid here  :Small Tongue: 




> So, my questions fall into a range rather than being a quick one, unfortunately. *What, if anything, do we know about the codex?*


We know the Expanded Psionics Handbook misspelled the name.  :Small Tongue: 

It's actually the Talairic Codex and, as you surmised, belongs to the refugees of Talaron. It is associated with House Vaymin of the Talaire, and is a relic they have transcribed and disseminated countless times since their flight from the homeworld. These copies are kept by elders in such communities. House Vaymin believes that the teachings of the Codex are integral to educating the "Ultimate Scion," the theorized Talaire hero who will lead the crusade to destroy the ancient enemies that ended Talaron.




> If you'd like more specificity: How does one get ahold of them?


Properly? One would have to request it from a Talaire elder. Improperly... well, those methods would range from theft to purchase on the black market; it's not impossible that a Talaire cell was at some point destroyed by enemies and its relics eventually recovered by previous adventurers, which would make a copy available on the market "legitimately." It's also possible, therefore, that a House Vaymin cell was destroyed by enemies who still occupy the ruins and a copy waits in their treasure cache.




> How much might they cost if purchased?


Depends on a number of factors, really, but it would be reasonable as an absolute baseline to consider it equivalent to a masterwork book of knowledge; a masterwork skill tool costs 50 gp.




> How big/long are they?


I wouldn't imagine it to be larger than about 1 lb. or so, but we lack specifications.




> Are they magical, or just books?


Hard to say; given that there is no listed cost to enter the class and war minds are not known to have access to any special powers beyond their own training, it's likely that the intent was for the Codex to be nonmagical. I have seen one case in which it was made cognate to a _tome of worldly memory_MIC, which does feel sensible and would make it a magic item with a 1,500 gp cost. 




> Besides Ununquam and a few Sun Tsu references, do we know _anything_ about their contents?


It contains details about the tenets that underpin the "chains of war" learned by a war mind. That's about it, though.

Now, that being said, my pedigree is that of a homebrewer, and far be it from me to pass up this opportunity:

*Spoiler: Talairic Codex*
Show

*Talairic Codex*

A _Talairic codex_ is a copy of the original codex that served as the founding document of the Diamond Knights, the warriors and protectors of Talaron, founded by Talaire himself in ancient days. Casual study of such a _codex_ or instruction by one who has completed such a study allows one to learn the principles of the so-called "chains of war," but the texts have a deeper value to one who becomes psionically attuned to them, a permission normally provided by a Talaire elder only to the most promising of candidates.

Two versions exist, the _lesser Talairic codex_ and the _greater Talairic codex_. Either one is sufficient for a reader to become a war mind and to teach others the necessary arts, but the _greater Talairic codex_ contains much more material detailing the history of the Diamond Knights, Talaire the hero, and the wars fought to protect Talaron. Either version functions as a masterwork tool for any Knowledge check involving Talaron or the Talaire people, providing a +2 (_lesser_) or +4 (_greater_) circumstance bonus to such checks. The books detail the Diamond Knights, founded by Talaire in concert with the six Houses of Talaron for the purpose of working toward peace and fighting the Enemy. It contains passages instructing the individual combatant in the principles, or "chains," of combat awareness, and historical treatises on heroes such as Ununquam the Vainquisher, Kestra the Lightbringer, Faerst Crimsonhand, and Donel the Architect. 

The owner of a _Talairic codex_, provided they have studied the book for at least 8 hours a day for one week and possess at least 1 power point, becomes psionically attuned to the book and gains several benefits for as long as this link is forged. A single _codex_ can maintain only one such link at a time, and the link is broken if the book is substantially damaged, more than 100 miles from the attuned owner, or on another non-coexistent plane (the owner and book may be on the Ethereal Plane and Material Plane, respectively, without breaking the link, or the Material Plane and the Plane of Shadow, but Inner Planes, Outer Planes, and the Astral Plane are all out). Certain exotic materials including _quintessence_ can also sever the link.

The owner receives 1 additional power point per war mind level attained and gains the benefits of the Unnerving CalmToB feat. If the owner is capable of initiating a martial maneuver, she also gains the benefits of the Instant ClarityToB feat and gains access to the Diamond Mind discipline if it was not already available to her.

A _greater Talairic codex_ provides the above benefit and confers additional benefits, as shown below.

If the owner has attained at least 4th level in the war mind prestige class, she gains the benefits of the Quick RecoveryLoM feat. She also gains the following ability:

_Chain of Alacritous Leadership (Ex)_ Most war minds are taught methods of applying their preternatural insight in the heat of battle as individual combatants, but a true student of Talaire understands that the success of the Diamond Knights against their foes was born not just in combat, but in the moments before - in leadership and strategy. Whenever an initiative roll is required, the war mind may expend her psionic focus to give herself and up to one ally per war mind level within 30 ft. a +2 insight bonus to initiative rolls for 1 minute. A war mind that uses this ability forfeits her ability to take a swift or immediate action in the first round of combat. This ability may be used three times per day.

As a swift action by expending psionic focus, the owner of a _greater Talairic codex_ may recover one daily use of chain of personal superiority, chain of defensive posture, chain of alacritous leadership, or chain of overwhelming force. This ability may be used once per day.

*Lesser:*
Moderate telepathy; ML 7th; Craft Universal Item, _bestow power_, _precognition_, _psychic reformation_, _serenity_CPsi, creator must be able to initiate at least one Diamond Mind maneuver or possess the Psionic Meditation feat and have a base attack bonus of +5 or greater; all prerequisites are considered met by a creator who possesses the sweeping strike class feature; Price 17,250 gp. 

*Greater:*
Strong telepathy; ML 11th; Craft Universal Item, _bestow power_, _precognition_, _psychic reformation_, _realized potential_CPsi, _serenity_CPsi, _zone of alertness_CPsi, creator must be able to initiate at least one Diamond Mind maneuver or possess the Psionic Meditation feat and have a base attack bonus of +10 or greater; all prerequisites are considered met by a creator who possesses the chain of overwhelming force class feature; Price 63,600 gp.

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## bekeleven

Thanks for the help! You went above and beyond with it.

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## Tzardok

I was rereading the Player's Guide to Faerûn and stumbled in the part with the Great Tree cosmology over the (very short) excursion on the planes you have access to from Maztica, Kara-Tur and Zakhara. Are those (especially Zakhara's two afterlife planes) one-offs that aren't mentioned anywhere else, or are they like most of the Great Tree planes divine realms and planar locales that existed in the Great Wheel and were carried over?

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## afroakuma

> I was rereading the Player's Guide to Faerûn and stumbled in the part with the Great Tree cosmology over the (very short) excursion on the planes you have access to from Maztica, Kara-Tur and Zakhara. Are those (especially Zakhara's two afterlife planes) one-offs that aren't mentioned anywhere else, or are they like most of the Great Tree planes divine realms and planar locales that existed in the Great Wheel and were carried over?


The latter... sort of. Al-Qadim never directly addressed the planar realms of its deities or afterlives, but we can infer from the fact that asuras and buraqi are listed as divine servants of the Zakharan pantheon that their Garden of Delights is on the Upper Planes, likely on or spanning Bytopia, Elysium, the Beastlands, and Arborea. The Maztican temenos are scattered across the Outer Planes, as you know, and the Kara-Turan pantheons are similarly situated, though as mentioned they do have a lot of links to the Spirit World.

On an unrelated note, I have been toying with this and got it to a satisfactory level: the *random planet idea generator* for spelljamming forays. It generates:

 Populated planets with a list of one to ten major races
 Monstrous planets on which humanoid races are subject to a powerful monster type such as beholders, mind flayers, giants, or dragons
 "Divergences," planets on which an unusual lifeform may provide for an interesting encounter off the beaten path
 Dead planets, which have no indigenous sapient life and may be terribly hazardous to visit

Some planets will also be listed as bearing ruins, generally of an extant or extinct people on that planet, but also from time to time bearing the hallmarks of an ancient spacefaring race.

Anyhoo, have fun!

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## Tzardok

I can already see that I'm going to have fun with that. The second planet it produced for me already provoked a question: what the heck are zygodacts? Google doesn't give me anything about them.

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## afroakuma

> I can already see that I'm going to have fun with that. The second planet it produced for me already provoked a question: what the heck are zygodacts? Google doesn't give me anything about them.


An absolutely bizarre race, zygodacts look sort of like anthropomorphic headless turtles whose forelimbs are humanoid arms... that each end in a hand which is also a head. They can use one hand-head as a limb and the other as a normal head without issue, or use both as heads... easily one of the most alien races D&D has ever come up with. I believe the source was Dragon 267.

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## Beni-Kujaku

> An absolutely bizarre race, zygodacts look sort of like anthropomorphic headless turtles whose forelimbs are humanoid arms... that each end in a hand which is also a head. They can use one hand-head as a limb and the other as a normal head without issue, or use both as heads... easily one of the most alien races D&D has ever come up with. I believe the source was Dragon 267.




Isn't he just the cutest little thing?

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## Thurbane

Weird race from Dragon 267. Same issue Diopsides first appeared in.

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## Batcathat

This is one of those times when I'd really like to know how the author came up with the idea. Did they read an issue of TMNT and an article about decapitations just before going to bed?

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## redking

What is the deal with the head of the Chinese pantheon? Is he an overgod or just a very strong leader of a pantheon?

Also, I seem to recall something from Planescape about the Finnish pantheon. Something about those deities progressing to the next level, perhaps becoming overgods. Was that ever elaborated on further?

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## Tzardok

> What is the deal with the head of the Chinese pantheon? Is he an overgod or just a very strong leader of a pantheon?


Shang-ti, the Jade Emperor, is a Greater God. Some 2e sources regarding Kara-Tur speculate that he could be an overgod, but Planescape is clear on his "mundane" divinity.




> Also, I seem to recall something from Planescape about the Finnish pantheon. Something about those deities progressing to the next level, perhaps becoming overgods. Was that ever elaborated on further?


The Finnish pantheon isn't evolving, it's _fading_ from being remote and aloof (esentially the opposite of evolving). Mielikki and Loviatar managed to fight back against this somnolescence and established themselves on Faerûn, thereby injecting themselves with new vigor.

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## Laughing Dog

So, I have a few questions.
First, what happens when a Material Plane is unable to access one (or more) of the Transitive Planes?
Second, what if said Material Plane was only cut off at certain locations, but had normal connectivity everywhere else? (i.e. along the road of Some Place, in the town of The Middle, in the Province of Nowhere there lacks access to the Ethereal Plane.)
Third, is there some sort of list of what gods/pantheons have been published/adapted for D&D?  I think I remember seeing one somewhere around here but I'm not certain it wasn't elsewhere/a figment of my imagination.

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## Silly Name

> So, I have a few questions.
> First, what happens when a Material Plane is unable to access one (or more) of the Transitive Planes?
> Second, what if said Material Plane was only cut off at certain locations, but had normal connectivity everywhere else? (i.e. along the road of Some Place, in the town of The Middle, in the Province of Nowhere there lacks access to the Ethereal Plane.)


Some of this was detailed in the 2001 _Manual of the Planes_. The Material Plane should outwardly work as normal, but some things do change: for example, in a world cut off from the Astral plane, a few spells cannot work, or need to be changed to rely on another plane - so your standard teleport spells don't work, but you may find a spell that uses the Shadow plane instead of the Astral.

Ethereal creatures, like ghosts wouldn't exist in a world disconnected from the Ethereal plane. You'd also need another way to connect the Material Plane to the other Inner Planes, and likewise lacking the Astral necessitates some other way to connect the Material Plane with the Outer Planes, if it all.

All those rules would apply even if the cut off was restricted to precise locations. Kinda like dead magic zones, only applying _there_. So on that road you mentioned there would never be any ghosts of phase spiders.




> Third, is there some sort of list of what gods/pantheons have been published/adapted for D&D?  I think I remember seeing one somewhere around here but I'm not certain it wasn't elsewhere/a figment of my imagination.


There are a bunch of lists. Not sure about a list detailing every god and pantheon ever published for D&D, but I'm sure I can find a list of official 3.5 deities, although it may not be 100% exhaustive.

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## Tzardok

> Third, is there some sort of list of what gods/pantheons have been published/adapted for D&D?  I think I remember seeing one somewhere around here but I'm not certain it wasn't elsewhere/a figment of my imagination.


Afro once threw this list together. It's just an alphabetical list of god names, but it gives an idea of the size of that project. Besides that, I once found a quite complete pdf document, but I'm not quite sure what it was called at the moment. Edit: Found it. Can be downloaded here.
Also, Afro and I are currently working on a masterdocument for gods. When it's finished, it will include information like portfolio, pantheon, divine rank, alignment, divine realm and so on, even for those that weren't given canonical information.

Edit: Here a list of pantheons that are already included some way or another: Faerûnian, Gnoll, the Warrior pantheon from Complete Warrior, Neogi, Taltos, Polynesian, Olympian, Babylonian, Sumerian, Celtic, Dwarven, Pharaonic, Ghostwalk, Goblinoid, Asathalfinare, Slavic, Orc, Finnish, Norse, Oerth, Bugbear, Faerie, Kobold, Lycanthrope, Halfling, Raptoran, Goliath, Gnome, Elf, Drow, Krynnish, Cerilian, Native American, Persian, Japanese, Lankhmar, Draconic, Wilderlands, Indian, Chinese, Aztec, Micronesian, Melanesian, Touv, Anglo-Saxon, Maztican, Kara-Tur, Australian, Yoruba.

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## unseenmage

How possible is it that the phlogiston and the crystal shell of a sphere are made of the same or similar material just in different states?

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## afroakuma

> How possible is it that the phlogiston and the crystal shell of a sphere are made of the same or similar material just in different states?


I would surmise it is unlikely, but if that's what someone would like to do in a game, there's nothing canonically saying otherwise.

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## Silly Name

> How possible is it that the phlogiston and the crystal shell of a sphere are made of the same or similar material just in different states?


Icebergs float in water, don't they?

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## Tzardok

> Icebergs float in water, don't they?


So does pumice.

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## ff7hero

> So does pumice.


So....icebergs and pumice are witches?

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## Tzardok

> So....icebergs and pumice are witches?


You are allowed to burn the iceberg at the stake if it is lighter than a cold duck.

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## Thurbane

> I'm looking for information related to qualifying for the War Mind (XPH), which can be done through use of the "an ancient text called the Talariic codex." In the war mind class body, it tells us that "The Talariic texts tell of the perfect warrior, a legend named Ununquam the Vanquisher, who lived many thousands of years ago but who achieved deeds that live on through the texts. " And that's about it; it also lists some principles of warfare the texts can teach.


Speaking of ancient texts, is there any more info on the Grimoire Arcanamacha, as mentioned in the Suel Arcanamach PrC?




> While the Suel Empire is long dead, the tradition of the arcanamach still survives in a rare set of magical tomes: the _Grimoire Arcanamacha_.


We know from the reqs it is written in ancient Suloise (duh), and takes a week to read.

As a bit of a Greyhawk tragic, any expansion on this would be very much appreciated.

Also, aside from SA and War Mind, are there other PrCs that require specific texts or similar?

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## Kuulvheysoon

> Speaking of ancient texts, is there any more info on the Grimoire Arcanamacha, as mentioned in the Suel Arcanamach PrC?
> 
> 
> 
> We know from the reqs it is written in ancient Suloise (duh), and takes a week to read.
> 
> As a bit of a Greyhawk tragic, any expansion on this would be very much appreciated.
> 
> Also, aside from SA and War Mind, are there other PrCs that require specific texts or similar?


Magelord (LEoF) requires direct tutelage _or_ a set of "rare tomes to study the tradition". Either option costs 10k.

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## afroakuma

> Speaking of ancient texts, is there any more info on the Grimoire Arcanamacha, as mentioned in the Suel Arcanamach PrC?


Looks like that's the lot, unless I've missed something. Are you open to homebrew, or is this another hard canon-only kind of thing?




> Also, aside from SA and War Mind, are there other PrCs that require specific texts or similar?


The Ritual of Bonding for the Acolyte of the Skin, the Apostolic Scrolls for the Wormhunter... nothing else comes immediately to mind.

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## Thurbane

> Looks like that's the lot, unless I've missed something. Are you open to homebrew, or is this another hard canon-only kind of thing?


Open to homebrew in this case.  :Small Smile:

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## afroakuma

> Open to homebrew in this case.


*Grimoire Arcanamacha*

It is hard to say how many copies of this ancient Suloise tome may still exist intact, though lesser copies have been scribed lacking the second and third codicils. Created with the assistance of the Mages of Power during the height of the Suel Imperium, the _Grimoire Arcanamacha_ teaches the secret magic arts of the arcanamachs, magic-wielding warriors specialized in combating mages.

The main body of the text describes the founding of the arcanamachs, their mandate and purpose, and contains a lot of easily glossed-over writing about Suloise greatness. Beyond these sections are the instructional chapters which form the basis of the arcanamach practice, including lessons on arcanamach magic, wielding magic while armored, personally resonant magic, and disrupting magic by focusing a countervailing flow of arcane energies through the body or a weapon.

By reading the _Grimoire Arcanamacha_, one fulfills the special prerequisite to take levels in the Suel arcanamach prestige classCArc. Intensive study of the grimoire for a week or more yields additional benefits to the diligent scholar, however. After spending at least 8 hours a day for one week reading over the _Grimoire Arcanamacha_ and practicing its instructions, the reader may qualify for the Suel arcanamach prestige class by using Mage SlayerCArc in place of Iron Will. The reader may also choose to use Intelligence as the attribute for Suel arcanamach spellcasting rather than Charisma, if so desired (applies to spell DCs and bonus spells). Finally, the reader does not suffer the caster level penalties of the Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical ConcealmentCArc, and Pierce Magical ProtectionCArc feats with respect to Suel arcanamach spells and spell-like abilities (other spells and spell-like abilities will remain impacted by these penalties, if applicable).

The final benefit of reading the _Grimoire Arcanamacha_ comes from its chapter on martial achievement, which is interwoven with Suloise magic. A Suel arcanamach who spends 8 hours per day for a week reading this chapter and following the instructions it lays out, as well as expending 4,000 gp worth of rare oils, meditative incense, and ruby dust, can gain a bonus fighter feat or one of Great Fortitude, Iron Will, or Lightning Reflexes. They must meet all the prerequisites of this feat, and the prerequisites must not include a base attack bonus of +9 or higher. For the purposes of this feat's prerequisites, Suel arcanamach levels are treated as fighter levels. This benefit is only available once per reader, regardless of how many copies of the _Grimoire Arcanamacha_ the reader has access to and reads - any given copy can only provide the same instructions as have already been followed.

All known copies of the _Grimoire Arcanamacha_ contain the first codicil, the Methodologia, while rarer copies also contain the second and third codicils.

Strong transmutation; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, _fox's cunning_, _greater dispel magic_, _greater heroism_; all prerequisites are considered met by a creator who possesses the extended spellstrength class feature and at least three daily uses of the dispelling strike class feature; Price 9,500 gp. 

*Spoiler: Codicil: Methodologia*
Show

*Acuminous Arcanamachy [Arcanamach]*
Your dispelling strike hones the force of your blow to a razor's edge.
*Prerequisites* Dispelling strike class feature
*Benefit* You gain 1 additional daily use of dispelling strike. When you use dispelling strike, your critical threat range is doubled on that attack and you receive a +4 bonus on your critical confirmation roll.

*Arcane Armament [Arcanamach]*
Your weapon can channel Suloise arcane patterns to draw temporary power.
*Prerequisites* Any one Arcanamach feat.
*Benefit* As a swift action, you may expend a spell slot to imbue any weapons or ammunition you are holding with a weapon enhancement of +1 value for 3 rounds per level of the spell slot expended. You must select the enhancement to use for any such weapons to be affected at the time you use this ability, and if more than one weapon is to be affected, each such weapon receives the same enhancement if possible or no enhancement if the selected enhancement is incompatible with one of them (e.g. a _keen_ enhancement applies to a longsword but not to a warhammer). If any such weapon is dropped, stolen, sundered, given away or otherwise leaves your active use, the enhancement ends immediately.

*Autophylact Arcanamachy [Arcanamach]*
Your dispelling strike can be focused inward to ward off harmful effects.
*Prerequisites* Dispelling strike class feature
*Benefit* You gain 1 additional daily use of dispelling strike. Once per round on your initiative count, you may expend one daily use of dispelling strike to apply its effects against a single magical or supernatural effect currently affecting you with a remaining duration of 1 round or more. Make a dispel check against that effect as though you had used dispelling strike on yourself; if successful, the effect is dispelled. Use of this ability is purely mental and does not require an action; it may be used while _charmed_, under a _suggestion_, _dominated_, or influenced in any similar fashion (and this use may not be countermanded by instructions given under the control of such an effect), while _held_ or otherwise paralyzed, while experiencing any grade of fear, sickness, or nausea, or while stunned, dazed, or unconscious as a result of a magical or supernatural effect. Non-magical unconsciousness prevents use of this ability, as does being unconscious and dying, or dead.

*Diffuse Arcanamachy [Arcanamach]*
Your dispelling strike can be focused outside of your weapon.
*Prerequisites* Dispelling strike class feature
*Benefit* You gain 1 additional daily use of dispelling strike. As a standard action, you may expend one daily use of dispelling strike to use _dispel magic_ as a spell-like ability, with your character level as the caster level. Use the normal dispel check rules for _dispel magic_ when employing this ability, rather than the special dispel check rules of the dispelling strike ability. This effect may be used for any of the functions of _dispel magic_ - targeted, area, or counterspell.

*Empowered Spellstrength [Arcanamach]*
Your personal spells are more potent than normal.
*Prerequisites* Extended spellstrength class feature
*Benefit* The variable, numeric effects of spells you cast that target yourself is increased by one-half. This increase pertains only to you as a target; if a spell you cast has multiple targets, the other targets receive the normal effects of the spell.

*Gleaning Arcanamachy [Arcanamach]*
Your dispelling strike ruptures magical energy into fragments that you can absorb to recharge your own spells.
*Prerequisites* Dispelling strike class feature, ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells
*Benefit* You gain 1 additional daily use of dispelling strike. When you use dispelling strike to successfully dispel one or more effects currently affecting a creature, you may regain one arcane spell slot of your choosing of any level below the maximum level of arcane spell that you can cast. For example, if you are capable of casting spells up to 4th level, a dispelling strike allows you to regain a spell of up to 3rd level.
*Special* A single effect may not be both gleaned and reaved; if you possess both this feat and Reaving Arcanamachy, for each effect you dispel, you must decide whether to glean it or reave it. You may make this decision after learning the nature of the effects dispelled, and you may glean one spell effect and reave another on the same dispelling strike if you have dispelled two or more effects simultaneously.

*Reaving Arcanamachy [Arcanamach]*
Your dispelling strike can capture magical energies and redirect them into you.
*Prerequisites* Dispelling strike class feature
*Benefit* You gain 1 additional daily use of dispelling strike. When you use dispelling strike to successfully dispel one or more effects currently affecting a creature, you become aware of the nature of the effects you have dispelled and may pick one of them, redirecting its effect and remaining duration to you as though you were the original target. For example, if you would dispel _fox's cunning_ with 6 rounds remaining in its duration, you may reave that effect and gain the benefits of _fox's cunning_ for 6 rounds. The original effect is still dispelled on the target of your strike. Regardless of how many effects you dispel with the same strike, you may only reave one such effect per dispelling strike.
*Special* A single effect may not be both gleaned and reaved; if you possess both this feat and Gleaning Arcanamachy, for each effect you dispel, you must decide whether to glean it or reave it. You may make this decision after learning the nature of the effects dispelled, and you may glean one spell effect and reave another on the same dispelling strike if you have dispelled two or more effects simultaneously.

*Recalescent Arcanamachy [Arcanamach]*
Your dispelling strike burns with magical force that intensifies as it contacts arcane energies.
*Prerequisites* Dispelling strike class feature
*Benefit* You gain 1 additional daily use of dispelling strike. When you use dispelling strike, your attack deals an additional 1d6 damage plus 1 point of damage for every dispellable effect (not magical item) currently affecting the target of your attack, whether or not your strike actually dispels that effect. For example, if the target of your attack was wearing _mage armor_ and protected by _shield_ and _stoneskin_, your dispelling strike would do an additional 1d6+3 damage.

*Relegative Arcanamachy [Arcanamach]*
Your dispelling strike channels and commands planar boundary energies
*Prerequisites* Dispelling strike class feature
*Benefit* You gain 1 additional daily use of dispelling strike. When you use dispelling strike, you may forego the dispel effect to choose either _dimensional anchor_ or _dismissal_ and apply the effects of the chosen spell to the target of your strike. Your strike must still connect with the target to make them subject to the chosen effect. The _dimensional anchor_ effect lasts for 1 minute. The _dismissal_ effect uses your character level in place of your caster level.


*Spoiler: Codicil: Iconopoeia*
Show

*Arcanamach Golem*
Medium Construct
*HD* 8d10+20 (64 hp)
*Speed* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Init:* +5
*AC* 24; touch 11; flat-footed 23 (+7 natural, +4 armor, +2 shield, +1 Dex)
*BAB* +6; *Grp* +14
*Attack* Longsword +15 melee (1d8+10, 19-20/x2) or slam +6 melee (1d6+10)
*Full-Attack* Longsword +15/+10 melee (1d8+10, 19-20/x2) or 2 slams +6 melee (1d6+10)
*Space* 5 ft.; *Reach* 5 ft.
*Special Attacks* Dispelling strike, maneuvers
*Special Qualities* _Anticipate teleportation_, construct traits, dangerously intelligent, DR 10/adamantine and bludgeoning, improved uncanny dodge, lifelike veil, SR 22, stances
*Saves* Fort +2 Ref +7 Will +4
*Abilities* Str 23, Dex 12, Con -, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills* Bluff -2*, Disguise +9*, Listen +13, Search +11, Spot +13
*Feats* AlertnessB, Improved InitiativeB, Lightning Reflexes, Mage SlayerCArc, Weapon Focus (longsword)
*Environment* Any
*Organization* Solitary
*Challenge Rating* 10
*Treasure* None
*Alignment* Always true neutral
*Advancement* By HD

Arcanamach golems resemble chalky or soapstone hobgoblins, orcs, or goliaths, with some few resembling humanoids of no known lineage. Regardless of appearance, each is outfitted with a weapon (usually a longsword), armor (usually a chain shirt), and a shield (usually a large steel shield) and bears ancient symbols of the Suel Imperium and its gods. Glyphs representing Kord, Wee Jas, Fortubo, Lendor, and (oddly) Lirr appear etched into the shoulders, forehead, abdomen, sternum, and palms of the hands, respectively. Created by the ancient arcanamachs and those who came after them and learned their ways, arcanamach golems are diligent servitors created to defend sites against magical intrusion and to assist arcanamachs in hunting down rogue spellcasters. An arcanamach golem speaks Common and up to two additional languages of the creator's choice which the creator can also speak, though they are not inclined to say anything that is not directly in line with their current task (warning off intruders or questioning witnesses on a hunt, for instance).

*Anticipate Teleportation (Sp)* An arcanamach golem is constantly under the effect of _anticipate teleportation_SC as the spell cast by a 12th level caster (60 ft. radius covered). The golem's creator may specify a password that can be included in the casting of or activation of a _teleport_ effect or similar in order to bypass the golem's _anticipate teleportation_, in which case anyone who knows this password (not just the creator) may use it for this purpose.

*Dangerously Intelligent (Ex)* An arcanamach golem adds its Intelligence bonus, if any, to Reflex saves, damage rolls, and attack rolls made to confirm a critical hit.

*Dispelling Strike (Sp)* An arcanamach golem may make up to three of its attacks per day into dispelling strikes, as per the Suel arcanamach prestige classCArc, which apply a targeted _dispel magic_ effect to the victim of the strike if it hits. The golem's dispelling check is 1d20+12 and factors in the reduction from the Mage Slayer feat.

*Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)* As barbarian.

*Lifelike Veil (Su)* An arcanamach golem can disguise itself as a Medium humanoid as a standard action once per day. While so disguised, it can be cut and will appear to bleed (though the blood will turn milky white in 1 hour) and gives the same result as a living human would to any magical, supernatural, or psionic effect that detects life, creature type, and other such characteristics of a living human. _Death watch_ detects an arcanamach golem using this ability to be in a fragile state (3 or fewer hit points). While so disguised, the golem gets a +2 bonus to Bluff checks and Disguise checks made to seem to be a normal humanoid. 10 or more points of fire, cold, acid, or slashing damage dealt to the golem will end this effect.

*Maneuvers (Ex)* Arcanamach golems are trained in the art of war and can initiate and recover martial maneuvers as an 8th level warbladeToB. Arcanamach golems select from the Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and Stone Dragon disciplines.

*Stances (Ex)* Arcanamach golems are trained in the art of war and can activate stances as an 8th level warblade. Arcanamach golems select from the Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and Stone Dragon disciplines, and traditionally are crafted knowing two of Stance of Clarity, Roots of the Mountain, and Absolute Steel Stance.

*Creation*
An arcanamach golems body must be sculpted from a single block of soapstone, gypsum, or limestone weighing at least 6,00 pounds, treated with ruby dust and ichors worth 1,250 gp. Creating the body requires a DC 20 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 20 Craft (stonemasonry) check.

CL 12th; Craft Construct, _anticipate teleportation_, _false life_, _fox's cunning_, _geas/quest_, _greater dispel magic_, at least one Stone Dragon, Iron Heart, or Diamond Mind stance, caster must be at least 12th level; all prerequisites are considered met by a creator who possesses the extended spellstrength class feature Price 30,000 gp; Cost 16,500 gp + 1,250 XP. 



*Spoiler: Codicil: Phenomenologia*
Show

*Expel*
*Abjuration*
*Level:* Hexblade 2, Suel Arcanamach 2, Wu Jen 4
*Components:* V, S
*Casting Time:* 1 standard action
*Range:* Personal
*Area:* 60 ft. radius burst 
*Duration:* See text
*Saving Throw:* Will partial
*Spell Resistance:* Yes

This spell allows the caster to capture a target who has escaped into extradimensional or nondimensional space via some magical (including supernatural, psionic, etc.) effect. The caster must specify a creature either by name or by focusing on a specific mental image of that creature (for example, if a beholder went into a _rope trick_, the caster could not say "the beholder" or picture any given beholder, but would need to either know the personal name of that beholder or have seen that specific beholder and focus on its image). If any extradimensional or nondimensional entrance, opening, rift, portal, or other such aperture is within the spell's area of effect, the creature specified will be forced out of the extradimensional or nondimensional space and into the nearest adjacent empty space to said opening.

If the creature so specified is expelled, it is prevented from leaving the plane it's currently on, whether to another plane or into extradimensional or nondimensional space, for 1 round per 2 caster levels - no entering a _rope trick_ or _magnificent mansion_, no _teleport_ or _dimension door_, no _plane shift_ or _ethereal jaunt_, et cetera. Although _astral projection_ still works, the subject's astral body cannot exit onto another plane from the Astral while this injunction is in effect. A successful Will save negates this effect but the expulsion itself still takes place.

If the specified creature is the creator of the extradimensional or nondimensional space by way of a spell or other ability or effect (not generated from e.g. a magic item), they are entitled to an opposed caster level check to prevent their own expulsion. If they choose to resist being expelled in this fashion, regardless of success or failure the remaining duration of the effect sustaining the extradimensional or nondimensional space is halved (round down). If such resistance is successful, the caster of _expel_ knows that it was resisted, but does not become aware of the nature of the extradimensional or nondimensional space containing the specified creature, nor of the location of its entrance.

As a magical creation of the ancient Arcanamachs, _expel_ is not subject to _dispel magic_, though an _antimagic field_ or similar effect will still suppress it as normal. _Slerotin's spell suppression_ can dispel _expel_.

*Grimgauntlet*
*Transmutation*
*Level:* Duskblade 4, Hexblade 3, Suel Arcanamach 3
*Components:* V, S, F
*Casting Time:* 1 standard action
*Range:* Touch
*Target:* Creature touched
*Duration:* 1 minute/level
*Saving Throw:* Will negates (harmless)
*Spell Resistance:* Yes (harmless)

A spell devoted to strengthening close-combat magic, _grimgauntlet_ is a valued tool of the arcanamachs. A _grimgauntlet_ spell causes one of the touched creature's hands (or equivalent limbs) to be wreathed in black flame. While active, the _grimgauntlet_ provides its wearer with a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength. Additionally, the caster level of any melee touch effects used by the wearer of the _grimgauntlet_, as well as saving throw DCs for such effects if applicable, increase by 2.

If a weapon is wielded in the hand wreathed by the _grimgauntlet_, melee touch effects may be discharged via successful attacks with that weapon. The wearer of the _grimgauntlet_ can choose to release the touch spell charge through the weapon but must do so before the attack roll is made. If the _grimgauntlet_ is holding a ranged weapon, the melee touch effect can be transmitted through that weapon as well.

When the wearer of the _grimgauntlet_ misses with a melee touch attack that would have transmitted a spell or other effect, they may discharge the remaining duration of the spell in order to make a second attempt immediately. The charge of the touch effect is not lost until such a second attempt is resolved.

As a magical creation of the ancient Arcanamachs, _grimgauntlet_ is not subject to _dispel magic_, though an _antimagic field_ or similar effect will still suppress it as normal. _Slerotin's spell suppression_ can dispel _grimgauntlet_.

Focus: A miniature black gauntlet

*Jekova's Fraudulent Fortification*
*Illusion (Figment)*
*Level:* Beguiler 2, Hexblade 2, Suel Arcanamach 2, Wu Jen 3
*Components:* V, S, M
*Casting Time:* 1 standard action
*Range:*  Personal
*Effect:* One illusory magical protection 
*Duration:* 10 minutes/level
*Saving Throw:* Will disbelief (if interacted with)
*Spell Resistance:* No

A deception used by the ancient arcanamachs, _Jekova's fraudulent fortification_ creates the illusion of the caster being protected by an abjuration effect. This illusion is centered on and follows the caster, and can duplicate the apparent visual and magical presence of any abjuration spell of 9th level or lower that could provide a direct defense (so for example while _dispel magic_ might "defend" a caster by eliminating a threatening spell or effect, its defensive characteristic is incidental to the specific function of the spell).

The illusory abjuration exactly resembles the real spell, except it provides no meaningful defense of any kind. A successful Spellcraft check made to identify the abjuration being falsified will return the duplicated spell on a success, unless the one making the Spellcraft check already disbelieves the illusion. The magical aura of this spell reads as abjuration rather than illusion and mimicks the strength of the spell being duplicated. Observing the effectiveness of the illusory barrier in defending the caster (or lack of effectiveness, rather) against an effect that would normally be handled by the spell being duplicated entitles the observer to a save to disbelieve. The observer must be aware of the nature of the defensive spell being imitated.

Decoding the nature of this spell as it is being cast is quite difficult. The normal Spellcraft DC to identify _Jekova's fraudulent fortification_ being cast is increased by the caster's level. A single caster can benefit from multiple castings of this spell, each emulating a different abjuration.

As a magical creation of the ancient Arcanamachs, _Jekova's fraudulent fortification_ is not subject to _dispel magic_, though an _antimagic field_ or similar effect will still suppress it as normal. _Slerotin's spell suppression_ can dispel _fraudulent fortification_.

Material component: A glass bead, an eggshell, or a piece of quartz

*Magewitness*
*Divination*
*Level:* Cleric 3 (Wee Jas), Paladin 2 (Wee Jas), Suel Arcanamach 2, Ultimate Magus 3, Wu Jen 3
*Components:* V, F, DF
*Casting Time:* 1 swift action
*Range:* Personal
*Target:* Self 
*Duration:* Instantaneous (see text)
*Saving Throw:* None
*Spell Resistance:* No

When casting this spell, the caster focuses on a creature within line of sight. Insight into the magical auras around that creature ripples down from the future into the caster's mind in the present, giving the caster a limited awareness of the next spell that creature will cast (or spell-like ability that creature will use) within 1 minute. This awareness comes in the form of the spell's school and subschool, if any. This information is as accurate as possible, but it can be mistaken if the creature does not cast a spell or use a spell-like ability within 1 minute. Once the creature focused on has cast a spell or used a spell-like ability, or after 1 minute without casting spells or using a spell-like ability, the information provided by _magewitness_ is no longer relevant.

_Magewitness_ specifically does not have any capacity to identify anything that is not a spell or spell-like ability (e.g. psionics, utterances, supernatural abilities, etc.) For this purpose, spell-like abilities listed in a creature's entity as "Psionics" should be exempt from the effects of this spell.

Special note: some players may not like being forced to commit to actions in advance. Work with your group to determine if NPCs should be using this spell against your party.

Divine spellcasters who do not worship Wee Jas cannot cast this spell.

Arcane focus: A ruby of at least 100 gp value.

Divine focus: A silver holy symbol of Wee Jas. 

*Greater Magewitness*
*Divination*
*Level:* Cleric 6 (Wee Jas), Paladin 4 (Wee Jas), Suel Arcanamach 4, Ultimate Magus 6, Wu Jen 6

As _magewitness_ but the caster may focus on up to one creature per two caster levels (max 5 creatures) and learns about the next spell each of them will cast.

*Rellimirck's Reactive Restraint*
*Transmutation*
*Level:* Assassin 1, Duskblade 3, Hexblade 2, Suel Arcanamach 1, Warmage 3, Wu Jen 3
*Components:* S
*Casting Time:* 1 immediate action
*Range:* Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
*Target:* One creature
*Duration:* Instantaneous
*Saving Throw:* None
*Spell Resistance:* Yes

This cunning and irksome spell is favored in duels with spellcasters as it offers an opportunity to impede them in their casting. By making a ranged touch attack against a target who is about to cast a spell or use a similar ability, make an attack, or make a Reflex save, the caster causes the air around one of the target's hands to thicken temporarily, impeding the intended movement of the limb in question in a fashion similar to physically grabbing the target's hand. This results in a -2 penalty to attack and damage rolls and to Reflex saving throws. This spell must be cast prior to the attack roll, saving throw, or resolution of the spell.

If the target was in the process of casting a spell with a somatic component, they must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level + _restraint_ caster level up to 10th level) or lose the spell. _Rellimirck's reactive restraint_ expires after the target attempts one attack roll (and attendant damage roll), one Reflex save, or one spell or other ability requiring a somatic component or hand motion; otherwise it expires automatically at the end of the target's current action (or immediately if the target was not taking any action).

*Saeryn's Secret Word*
*Divination*
*Level:* Suel Arcanamach 5
*Components:* V
*Casting Time:* 1 standard action
*Range:* Personal
*Target:* Self
*Duration:* Instantaneous
*Saving Throw:* None
*Spell Resistance:* No

The most subtle but feared of the spells developed by the ancient Suel arcanamachs, _Saeryn's secret word_ involved the wizard Saeryn, one of the Mages of Power of the ancient Suel Imperium. Through dangerous research, the power of this spell was uncovered, which briefly illuminates the caster's mind with a True Word, an ancient utterance of profound power. This word is forgotten immediately and irrevocably, uttered as part of the casting of the spell but unintelligible to any listener.

When spoke, _Saeryn's secret word_ allows the caster to bypass any one magical (including supernatural, psionic, etc.) effect of less than epic or godly origin which would admit the creator of the effect or other authorized creatures but restrict those not welcomed by the effect's creator. This includes spells such as _Leomund's tiny hut_, _Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion_, _arcane lock_, and even the boundary of a demiplane created via _genesis_. Portals, _phase doors_, and similar effects grant the caster passage. _Glyphs of warding_, _symbols_ and other effects that can be bypassed safely by the creator or another creature using a password will allow the caster to pass safely as well. Effects of epic or godly origin allow an opposed caster level check to bypass in this fashion, with a +5 bonus on the check.

_Saeryn's secret word_ has no effect on mundane methods of restricting entry or passage; a door with a physical lock and key still needs to be opened conventionally, a portcullis raised, and so forth.

The power of _Saeryn's secret word_ applies to one chosen effect, one time only. Once that effect has been passed, the caster has no further protection against or exemption from that effect in the future unless the spell is employed a second time or some other method of admission is arranged (the original creator of the restricting effect granting this spell's caster permission, for example).

*Saeryn's Shadow Stalk*
*Illusion (Shadow)*
*Level:* Assassin 4, Hexblade 4, Suel Arcanamach 4
*Components:* S
*Casting Time:* 1 standard action
*Range:* Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
*Target:* One creature
*Duration:* 1 hour/level or until discharged
*Saving Throw:* None
*Spell Resistance:* No

Derived from ancient texts on shadow magic, this Suloise spell was handed down only to the most trusted of magic warriors, for fear of it being turned against the ruling wizard class. It must be cast while the caster is within 10 ft. of a square that has dim illumination or less.

The caster selects a target, forging a link between themselves and the target's shadow. To maintain this link, the spell slips the caster into the Plane of Shadow, leaving behind an illusory duplicate that acts as a _minor image_. The caster can move about much more quickly on the Plane of Shadow - 50 miles per hour, or roughly 220 feet of movement speed. The caster can perceive the target's shadow on the Plane of Shadow as a glowing beacon. 

As a move action while the spell remains in effect, the caster can step 'out' of the targets shadow. To do so, the caster must be adjacent to the space on the Plane of Shadow that corresponds to the targets space. After stepping out of the targets shadow, the target is flat-footed until their next turn unless they had identified the _shadow stalk_ effect cast upon them. Once the caster emerges from shadow, the spell automatically ends.

If the target is standing in bright illumination when the caster wishes to exit, the caster will be dazzled for 1d4 rounds. If the spell duration elapses while the caster is still on the Plane of Shadow, the caster is shunted 1d10×100 feet in a random horizontal direction from the target's location. If this would place the caster within a solid object, the caster is shunted 1d10×1,000 feet in the same direction. If this would still place the caster within a solid object, the caster is shunted to the nearest empty space available, but the strain of this activity renders the caster fatigued (no save). If the target should enter a different plane other than the Plane of Shadow, the tracking beacon is lost (though a jaunt through another plane to return to the plane of origin, for instance _dimension door_ or _teleport_, results in the beacon reappearing at the target's new location). The visibility of the beacon clarifies the area immediately around it to the vision of the caster, allowing for effects relying on familiarity as though the caster had viewed the location once.

If the target enters the Plane of Shadow, the caster gains a significant advantage - a +2 insight bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks, and saving throws pertaining to the target of the spell for as long as the two are on the Plane of Shadow.

As a magical creation of the ancient Arcanamachs, _Saeryn's shadow stalk_ is not subject to _dispel magic_, though an _antimagic field_ or similar effect will still suppress it as normal. _Slerotin's spell suppression_ can dispel _shadow stalk_.

*Slerotin's Spell Suppression*
*Abjuration*
*Level:* Duskblade 3, Hexblade 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 5, Suel Arcanamach 3
*Components:* V, S
*Casting Time:* 1 standard action
*Range:* Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
*Target:* One spellcaster, creature, or object
*Duration:* Instantaneous or see text
*Saving Throw:* None
*Spell Resistance:* No

A specialized variation of _dispel magic_ created by Slerotin, a Suel wizard known by some as the Last Mage of Power, _Slerotin's spell suppression_ is specially designed to unravel Arcanamach spells. This spell functions as _dispel magic_, save that it is always targeted and applies the area dispel effect in a 20 ft. radius around its target (unless being used as a counterspell). Additionally, when a dispel check fails by 4 or less, the spell effect that was checked against is suppressed for 1 round per 2 caster levels (max 5 rounds). Time suppressed does not count against an effect's duration. A suppressed spell has no effect and is not considered active for the purpose of anything that would benefit from the spell being in place (e.g. if _heart of air_ is suppressed while _heart of water_ remains active, the creature so affected does not benefit from light fortification as they would if both spells were active) but may still be subject to further dispelling while suppressed.

Instead of using it as a dispel or counterspell, a Suel arcanamach may also cast this spell in an inverted fashion, absorbing the potential magic to recharge one of their daily uses of _dispelling strike_. This has no effect if the arcanamach has not expended any daily uses.

*Time Mask*
*Abjuration*
*Level:* Beguiler 6, Hexblade 4, Suel Arcanamach 4, Wu Jen 5
*Components:* S, F
*Casting Time:* 1 standard action
*Range:* Personal
*Target:* You
*Duration:* 10 minutes/level
*Saving Throw:* Will negates (harmless)
*Spell Resistance:* Yes (harmless)

A powerful defensive ward derived from ancient Suel chronomantic traditions, a _time mask_ interferes with time and causality in the immediate proximity of the wearer.

The wearer of a _time mask_ is immune to any magical or supernatural _slow_ effect. _Quintessence_ parts like water at the wearer's touch. Any effect which would be triggered by the presence of the wearer or a non-physical interaction (for instance, looking at a _symbol of death_ or meeting the conditions of a _contingency_, or setting off a magical _alarm_) ignores the wearer when determining whether or not it triggers. Spells and effects which function by providing insight into the future, such as _moment of prescience_ or _foresight_, provide no benefits against the activities of the wearer. Similarly, spells and effects that would predict the future cannot foresee the casting of _time mask_ nor any activities conducted during the duration (e.g. _commune_, _contact other plane_, _divination_, etc).

In addition to these benefits, the wearer of the _time mask_ enjoys a +2 insight bonus to initiative.

As a magical creation of the ancient Arcanamachs, _time mask_ is not subject to _dispel magic_, though an _antimagic field_ or similar effect will still suppress it as normal. _Slerotin's spell suppression_ can dispel a _time mask_.

Focus: A miniature crystal mask

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## Thurbane

Great stuff as always, thanks for whipping that up!  :Small Smile:

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## Kuulvheysoon

> *Spoiler: Spells of the Grimoire Arcanamacha*
> Show
> 
> *Expel*
> *Abjuration*
> *Level:* Hexblade 2, Suel Arcanamach 2, Wu Jen 4
> *Components:* V, S
> *Casting Time:* 1 standard action
> *Range:* Personal
> ...


Can I mention how much I love that you gave the nod to Wu Jen? You truly are a gentle(wo)man and a scholar.

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## afroakuma

> Great stuff as always, thanks for whipping that up!


Not quite done, I just had enough spells created that I wanted to post them before something notorious happened.

Still some feats to do and some fluff to flesh it out. I'll poke you when it's finished.




> Can I mention how much I love that you gave the nod to Wu Jen? You truly are a gentle(wo)man and a scholar.


Wu Jen need care and affection. I really should list a few more specialty prestige classes as well, buuuut... if anyone asks, I'll tackle them case-by-case.

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## Tzardok

> *Magewitness*
> *Divination*
> *Level:* Cleric 3 (Wee Jas), Paladin 2 (Wee Jas), Suel Arcanamach 2, Ultimate Magus 3, Wu Jen 3
> 
> 
> *Greater Magewitness*
> *Divination*
> *Level:* Cleric 6 (Wee Jas), Paladin 4 (Wee Jas), Suel Arcanamach 4, Ultimate Magus 6, Wu Jen 6


I am not quite sure what the Ultimate Magus does there. Do you mean that an Ultimate Magus gains the spell on any of their spell lists that reached the necessary level?




> Wu Jen need care and affection. I really should list a few more specialty prestige classes as well, buuuut... if anyone asks, I'll tackle them case-by-case.


Ohhh...  :Small Smile:  Got any Wu Jen-specific classes that work with one of the other subsystems? Maybe one that's shadow-based? Or a class that improves on the Wu Jen's elemental specialization?

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## Thurbane

> Not quite done, I just had enough spells created that I wanted to post them before something notorious happened.
> 
> Still some feats to do and some fluff to flesh it out. I'll poke you when it's finished.


Excellent. My Greyhawk game thanks you.  :Small Smile:

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## afroakuma

> I am not quite sure what the Ultimate Magus does there. Do you mean that an Ultimate Magus gains the spell on any of their spell lists that reached the necessary level?


When you have Ultimate Magus levels and a 6th level spellslot from either of the two classes used to qualify for UM, those spell slots can be used for that spell, provided it is known to the caster.




> Ohhh...  Got any Wu Jen-specific classes that work with one of the other subsystems? Maybe one that's shadow-based? Or a class that improves on the Wu Jen's elemental specialization?


I meant I should list more prestige classes with distinctive spellcasting in the spells above. I would not be averse to doing something for wu jen, however, if you'd like to tell me what you'd like to see.




> Excellent. My Greyhawk game thanks you.


Glad to help! Let me know how it goes or if you need anything else.  :Small Smile:

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## Tzardok

> When you have Ultimate Magus levels and a 6th level spellslot from either of the two classes used to qualify for UM, those spell slots can be used for that spell, provided it is known to the caster.


Ah. Gotcha.




> I meant I should list more prestige classes with distinctive spellcasting in the spells above. I would not be averse to doing something for wu jen, however, if you'd like to tell me what you'd like to see.


I was thinking of something like the Focused Specialist except for the elemental specializations of the wu jen. So a bunch of metal abilities (like, I dunno, DR/stone or wood), a bunch of wood abilities, etc.
For the thing with the shadow there was no deeper thought besides "I like Wu Jen. I like shadowmagic. Does he have a Wu Jen + shadowmagic class?"
All in all I would be happy with anything.

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## Bohandas

A couple of these spells immediately suggest other spells that might exist




> *Jekova's Fraudulent Fortification*


This one seems like it should have a higher level [shadow] version that provides real protection a certain percentage of the time




> *Slerotin's Spell Suppression*


And this one seems like it should have a cousin that only suspends durations and doesn't dispel


Also, that whole entry was good and I recommend crossposting it to 1001 Homebrew Spells for greater exposure

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## Dalmosh

Is there any known flora native to Arcadia? What properties does it have?

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## afroakuma

> Is there any known flora native to Arcadia? What properties does it have?


Nothing exceptional... but that doesn't mean we can't make some.

*Spoiler: Arcadian Flora*
Show

*Abellian Xixima*
A planar variant of an extremely resilient cereal crop native to certain Prime worlds, Abellian xixima is chiefly planted and harvested by the thri-kreen petitioners of Abellio, first layer of Arcadia. Resembling shoulder-height bamboo with a golden color and rich violet sap, xixima hulls contain a plethora of grainlike seeds suspended in a thin and viscous gel. As the plant grows, the sap and gel dry out, ultimately resulting in a cracking of the outer woody hull that will split open to allow the now-dried grains to be caught and distributed by local fauna or by the wind.

Xixima is made into a purplish paste which is nutty and mildly sweet, with a hint of a citrus edge; in this form, when eaten, Abellian xixima heals 1d4+1 hp and restores 1 Con damage. The woody hulls, harvested and treated, can be used to make various styles of armor, including "leather," studded "leather," "hide," splint mail, and banded mail. Such treatment requires a DC 20 Craft (woodworking) check for a thri-kreen, or DC 25 Craft (alchemy) for other species that cannot metabolize xixima sap into lacquer. Armor made of Abellian xixima weighs 20% less, increases max Dex bonus by 1, and provides a +1 armor bonus to Reflex saves against effects that deal fire or cold damage.

Outside of Arcadia, Abellian xixima as a meal tends to be quite expensive, often running for 100 gp or more. Portable field-stable rations made of Abellian xixima are sold around various planar markets for 200 gp each. Arbor made of Abellian xixima does not need to be masterwork, but the treated material itself adds 1000 gp to the cost of light or medium armor, or 2000 gp to the cost of heavy armor.

*Buxenian Willow*

A very tall tree with elegant dark wood, the Buxenian willow can be picked out easily by the perfect radial arrangement of its branches and foliage. The leaves uniformly present a green color characterized as "soft," which sharpens to an intense and vibrant color in autumn and winter. On the first day of spring, all of a Buxenian willow's leaves fall off simultaneously, a dangerous hazard for those resting below as the hard leaves have razorlike edges, dealing 2d6 damage to anyone caught in their path. Buxenian willows have a supernatural aura that prevents strong emotions within 30 ft. of the tree. This suppresses any kind of fear effect, barbarian rage, _fascination_ and _charm_, _crushing despair_, and other such effects that rely on emotion for either positive or negative ends. Morale bonuses and penalties are ignored within this radius.

Buxenian willow wood is dense and heavy, weighing 25% more than other woods. Used to make wood armorDR319, Buxenian willow reduces the max Dex bonus of the armor by 1. However, a suit of Buxenian willow wood armor or a wooden shield offers valuable protection against emotion-based effects, providing a +2 insight bonus to saves to resist or recover from a change of emotional state. Buxenian willow wood has hardness 8 and 12 hp per inch of thickness. Such a piece of equipment is always masterwork and costs an additional 1500 gp.

Used to make a wooden weapon, Buxenian willow wood is impractical for applications requiring flexibility (such as a bow) but makes an excellent material for blunt weapons. A weapon made of Buxenian willow wood may cause a _calm emotions_ effect on the creature struck (duration 1 minute, Will DC 15 negates) at the wielder's discretion upon seeing the results of the attack. The weapon may _calm emotions_ only three times per day before it has absorbed too many emotions to function, though if an attack misses, or the target makes their save, a daily use is not consumed. Such a weapon is always masterwork and costs an additional 1000 gp.

Magical items that manipulate emotions have their effective caster level and save DC for emotion-manipulating effects (as applicable) increased by 1 if they are made predominantly of Buxenian willow wood. This material adds an additional 1000 gp to the cost to create such an item.

*Ortholys Rose*

These strange roses have a rich red hue and blossom in a distinctive Reuleaux triangle shape. When smelled, the aroma of an ortholys rose has a unique impact on a creature depending on its alignment. A lawful creature gets a +2 morale bonus to their next non-Charisma-based and non-Wisdom-based skill check within 1 minute, while a chaotic creature suffers a -2 morale penalty to their next skill check of the same kind within 1 minute.

Ortholys can be concentrated to make a perfume that offers similar benefits. Mixed with appropriate herbs, a vial of _ortholys essence_ can be tailored to any Str-, Dex-, Con-, or Int-based skill, providing a +4 alchemical bonus to that skill check for 1 minute when inhaled by a lawful creature, or for 1 hour if applied to the skin in the manner of a perfume or cologne. One vial contains enough for three such applications (simply smelling it does not use up a meaningful amount of essence), though once a vial is first unstoppered, it will spoil after one month, wasting any remaining essence. _Pure ortholys essence_ which has not been mixed to give it a more limited character can be used in a similar fashion, providing its bonus to *all* Str-, Dex-, Con-, and Int-based skills for the appropriate duration, but the user will suffer a -4 penalty on Wis- and Cha-based skill checks for the same duration and will become fatigued after it elapses. Inhaling or applying _pure ortholys essence_ also inhibits natural healing for the day. For these reasons, it is a controlled substance, and Arcadian officials are concerned that fiends may be looking into ortholys as an accelerant for certain kinds of poison. Either kind of _ortholys essence_ will sicken a chaotic creature who inhales it for 2d6 rounds (Fort DC 16 halves). While applied to a creature, _ortholys essence_ mixes with their own natural odor, causing it to lose efficacy where other creatures who are within range to smell it are concerned.

Ortholys is extremely toxic to a few specific creatures, with the following effects:

 Illithids and illithid-related creatures: inhaled DC 16; primary damage 2d6 PP, 1d4 Cha, and nauseated 1d4 rounds (save halves duration, does not negate, minimum 1 round); secondary damage 4d6 PP, 1d8 Cha (1 permanent).
 Orcs: inhaled DC 16; primary damage 1d4 Con, 1d4 Wis, and _confused_ 1d4 rounds (save halves duration, does not negate, minimum 1 round); secondary damage 2d4 Con and 1d4 Wis. Half-orcs, orogs, and ogrillons count as orcs for this purpose and suffer a -4 penalty to their Fortitude save to resist this effect.
 Elves (including drow): inhaled DC 16, primary damage 1d4 Dex, 1d4 Con, and fascinated 1d4 rounds (save halves duration, does not negate, minimum 1 round); secondary damage 2d4 Dex and 1d4 Con. Half-elves (and half-drow) count as elves for this purpose and suffer a -4 penalty to their Fortitude save to resist this effect.

Increase the DC by 2 if the source was _pure ortholys essence_.

_Ortholys essence_ sells for 1,250 gp on the open market and may be created with a Craft (alchemy) check (DC 25); _pure ortholys essence_ sells for 2,000 gp and is considered a controlled substance on Arcadia, considerably harder to make (Craft (alchemy) DC 30).

*Beldrul*

These neat little shrubs have precisely ovoid leaves arranged in a precisely spherical form with a precisely conical root network. They bear precisely trifoliate flowers with the hue of a dawn sky, and little berries resembling teardrop-shaped blueberries that grow precisely in clusters of three. Beldrul berries are prized by the Harmonium for their value to guards, for ingestion of a beldrul berry instantly removes fatigue unless caused by a barbarian's rage or equivalent ability or effect. Ingestion of more than one beldrul berry within the same day inflicts 1 point of temporary Wisdom damage, and apothecaries have not found any useful way to make beldrul berries, on their own, assist in recovering from exhaustion. Once picked, a beldrul berry remains good for 1d4 days.

Beldrul bushes are difficult to cultivate on their own; the plane seems to decide where they belong, and it takes a Profession (horticulturalist) check (DC 25) to encourage a transplant or seedling to grow anywhere it did not develop naturally. The DC of this check increases by 5 if the attempt is made on a plane other than Arcadia.

Beldrul has other useful properties; the leaves, dried and processed into a tea, provide the drinker with a +2 insight bonus on Int-based skill checks for 6 hours. Beldrul flowers may be included as a material component in the casting of _fox's cunning_, increasing the effective caster level by 2. The juice of the berries, a thin red liquid, provides the drinker with the benefits of the Alertness feat for 6 hours (though if the drinker already has this feat, they gain no benefit) and can be used as a component in a _potion of lesser restoration_ to reduce the cost of creating it by 50 gp and eliminate the XP cost.

Beldrul berries and their juice may only be obtained on Arcadia, where a berry may be purchased for 5 gp. The juice of at least ten berries is needed to make a dose of beldrul juice, so it is rarely prepared except by those who harvest the berries themselves for their own use. A dose of beldrul tea costs 75 gp normally but only 25 gp on Arcadia, where it is comparatively plentiful. Beldrul flowers go for 10 gp each on the open market.

*Trimgrass*

The bane of trackers on Arcadia, trimgrass grows in many a field, and can be recognized by the unfailingly erect blades, which do not bend in the slightest from gravity, creating a neat and tidy appearance, as though of a well-maintained lawn. A gust of wind will barely disturb trimgrass, and unless trampled to the point of death (a creature weighing at least 1,000 lbs), the blades will spring back perfectly even if trodden on by a passerby. Trimgrass interferes with efforts to track through it (+10 to the DC) and does not respond to spells such as _entangle_ that prompt excessive plant growth or unnatural behavior, even temporarily.

Some patches of trimgrass are slightly silvery; these are especially irksome for visitors, as the blades make a light chiming sound when springing back. Natives of the plane are familiar with this sound and can easily locate it (+4 to Listen checks), and recognize that it means someone is walking off the designated roads. Silver trimgrass has landed many a traveller in hot water.

----------


## Thurbane

> Is there any known flora native to Arcadia? What properties does it have?


I looked at this list, and was surprised that since things like Abyssal Blackgrass exist, there wasn't much published for other outer planes.

Glad we have Afro to fill the gaps.  :Small Smile:

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## Tzardok

Well, those sound like I've got to use them in my next campaign. Just a question: is it intentional that the Ortholys essence is more toxic to half-elves, not less?

----------


## afroakuma

> Well, those sound like I've got to use them in my next campaign. Just a question: is it intentional that the Ortholys essence is more toxic to half-elves, not less?


Absolutely. It's Arcadia, they don't like things that aren't one thing or the other. Which reminds me I need to ding half-orcs too.

Added a couple more plants for fun.

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## Bohandas

> On an unrelated note, I have been toying with this and got it to a satisfactory level: the *random planet idea generator* for spelljamming forays. It generates:


How do I download this? I've tried in several different broswers and I can't get it to display correctly and I can't figure out how to download it to run it in a different program that will display it correctly.

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## afroakuma

> How do I download this? I've tried in several different broswers and I can't get it to display correctly and I can't figure out how to download it to run it in a different program that will display it correctly.


It's not downloadable - it has to be used through Google Sheets. If you have a Google account, you can save a copy and use it that way. Chrome might be the best browser to try it with, though I built the whole thing using Firefox without issues.

I'm fairly confident the whole thing could be cloned over to Excel, but sadly I don't own that software.  :Small Sigh:

----------


## Dalmosh

Damn, that answer sure delivered the goods, thanks a lot.




> Beldrul bushes are difficult to cultivate on their own; the plane seems to decide where they belong


This skirts close to a broader question I have on this topic.

I'd tended to see Arcadia's themes of striving for perfection, and ordering things into optimum ideals as producing plants that would be potentially aggressive (if aesthetically pleasant) weeds on other planes.  Do Arcadian plants tend towards pacifying and terraforming less well organised ecosystems into more uniform, efficient and "ideal" ones?  

Or, as in the example above, would the plane's inherent self-ordering stop such organisms from escaping into and affecting other areas, since their optimal correct place is where they are on Arcadia, performing a pre-delineated and bounded function?  

Is axiomatic biodiversity inherently dangerous to normal biodiversity, due to an inherent tendency towards optimising and perfecting the surrounding environment?

In general, the altered flora and fauna described around portals and planar breaches tends to be normal prime biodiversity that has been altered or corrupted by planar energies.  Is it common though for aligned species of planar fauna and flora to spread across from Outer Planes at such locations, and to then become invasive pests and weeds in the foreign plane on the other side?

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## afroakuma

> Damn, that answer sure delivered the goods, thanks a lot.


I knew there was something bugging me about it - the original 1E Manual of the Planes covered it. Arcadia has trees with metallic coloration - iron, copper, silver, and gold - whose fruits function as various potions. That was the other one.




> I'd tended to see Arcadia's themes of striving for perfection, and ordering things into optimum ideals as producing plants that would be potentially aggressive (if aesthetically pleasant) weeds on other planes.  Do Arcadian plants tend towards pacifying and terraforming less well organised ecosystems into more uniform, efficient and "ideal" ones?


Some of them would be invasive and terrible for the Prime, though ultimately they would not thrive long, in their attempts to do so they would poison ecosystems full of "inferior" plant life.  




> Is axiomatic biodiversity inherently dangerous to normal biodiversity, due to an inherent tendency towards optimising and perfecting the surrounding environment?


Any kind of planar flora or fauna is hazardous to the Prime ecosystem. Outer Planar energies damage the fabric of the Material Plane.




> In general, the altered flora and fauna described around portals and planar breaches tends to be normal prime biodiversity that has been altered or corrupted by planar energies.  Is it common though for aligned species of planar fauna and flora to spread across from Outer Planes at such locations, and to then become invasive pests and weeds in the foreign plane on the other side?


For the most part, no. It generally takes either a fairly large and steady rift for such life to spread in a meaningful sense (fauna can do so much more easily than flora), or deliberate transportation from one side to the other.

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## Bohandas

I've always imagined axiomatic fauna as being things like spherical cows

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## Tzardok

> I've always imagined axiomatic fauna as being things like spherical cows


I assumed spherical cows were the favoured lifestock of the Quasielemental Plane of Vacuum.

Edit: That reminds me: Do we know anything about King Black and Queen White, besides that they are the closest thing Radiance has to Archomentals?

Also, what is known about the elves living in the Valey of the Mage in Greyhawk? Do we know why they and the Seldarine abandoned each other and what they worship now? Are they a subrace on their own (and if yes, are their traits different from the ones of the other elves in the Flanaess?) or are they just members of another subrace or races?

----------


## afroakuma

> Edit: That reminds me: Do we know anything about King Black and Queen White, besides that they are the closest thing Radiance has to Archomentals?


We know they have birdlike heads. That's about it.




> Also, what is known about the elves living in the Valey of the Mage in Greyhawk?


Not a *ton*; they've been there for something like 15,000 years, are generally quite xenophobic and only known to tolerate the tree people of the valley, the gnomes of the valley, and the Mage of the Valley himself. They are predominantly chaotic neutral, and the vast majority of them multiclass between a martial class and wizard (I would surmise that none of them are duskblades or take levels in any elf-specific prestige class). It seems even contemporary scholars aren't sure of what caused the schism between valley elves and other elves, in many cases attributing it to their choice to serve the Mage of the Valley despite his arrival being quite recent and the schism being millennia old.




> Do we know why they and the Seldarine abandoned each other and what they worship now?


We don't know the nature of their schism from their deities, but it must be something quite profound - the best information we have, such as it is, comes from the *drow* of all places, who accuse them of having become "slaves to a lie". The drow in fact have a specific and distinctive hatred for valley elves, beyond the normal contempt they exhibit for other surface elves. One interesting thing to note is that the drow and the valley elves are considered to have branched off from elvendom proper at a similar time, and then divided beyond that. Another is that, unlike even the drow, who draw words of scorn repeatedly from surface elves, valley elves are referred to using the Elven words that indicate a slave or servant *thing* such as a golem rather than being described as minions to some force. The only other elves who tolerate them are the snow elves of the Crystalmist Mountains, who seem to align with them out of mutual exile more than anything else, although in the case of the snow elves it is known exactly why they are disdained by other elves, other elves still recognize them as *being* elves, and they still worship the Seldarine.

Whatever the original nature of the schism, it doesn't seem like valley elves currently cleave to it - the denizens of the Valley of the Mage generally worship Ehlonna.




> Are they a subrace on their own (and if yes, are their traits different from the ones of the other elves in the Flanaess?) or are they just members of another subrace or races?


Valley elves are largely indistinct from high elves, with a couple of exceptions - they are taller, tall enough to easily pass for human; they disdain steeds other than horses; and their features, while marking them out to other elves (-2 circumstance penalty on Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate checks against other elves), are closer to those of a human (+4 to Disguise checks made to appear human).

----------


## Thurbane

This was raised in it's own thread (Alignment and genies?), but I thought it might be interesting to discuss here as well.

Any thoughts on the "always" alignment status of Genies?

Apparently 3.0 genies had alignment subtypes, while 3.5 genies didn't (with the exception of Qorrashi).

Also, apparently the City of Brass has some kind of tie to the Nine Hells, and has a mildly evil planar trait?

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

As a follow-up to that, is there any lore as to why djinn are chaos-aligned?

They're said to be the genies "most tolerant of servitude to mortals" according to Land of Fate, they have the same fairly rigidly hierarchical society that the other genie races do (which would also imply that marids should be LN rather than CN, but that's another issue), and they swore fealty to the Wind Dukes back in the day, all of which would imply they would lean LG (or at least NG like the Princess of Elemental Good) instead of CG.

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## Dalmosh

Do the Yugoloths extort tolls over the fiendish armies that deploy on Oinos, Khalas and Orthrys, for things like access to portals, permission to travel en masse between locations or to establish temporary military camps in choice spots?

How powerful/influential are they in terms of determining what Tanar-ari and Baatezu forces get to do on these Layers?

Are these NE Bloodwar battlefields existentially dangerous for the demons and devils that fight there in terms of Falling towards neutral evil? In what sorts of ways does that manifest?

----------


## afroakuma

> This was raised in it's own thread (Alignment and genies?), but I thought it might be interesting to discuss here as well.
> 
> Any thoughts on the "always" alignment status of Genies?


"Always" is still not 100%, as you know, but essentially the aligning of genies is a legacy of their ancient ties to the War of Law and Chaos, where they were servants of the Wind Dukes of Aaqa. The djinn disliked being pressed into servitude but found their own values in the cause; the efreet thrived under the strictures of the vaati as they intended to rule all and considered the vaati a means to that end; the dao held no convictions about the war itself but believed that their involvement would make them prosperous at the expense of weaker beings; and the marids despised being forced into anything as they believed themselves superior to others. It should be noted that as they are not beings of belief and not typed in the way that celestials or demons are (despite 3.0 mismanaging that and 3.5 making the same mistake with the qorrashi), the alignment behavior of a genie is vastly different than the alignment behavior of a mortal or an Outer Planar outsider, far more in line with a dragon - which is to say, djinn being chaotic good certainly makes them more friendly than, say, dao, but they still view themselves as superior to mortals, not as equals or inferiors, and dislike being asked to serve.  




> Also, apparently the City of Brass has some kind of tie to the Nine Hells, and has a mildly evil planar trait?


The baatezu have trade arrangements with the Great Sultan of the Efreet to the mutual profit of both parties. The City of Brass does have the mildly evil-aligned trait, but while this is certainly cemented by the evil of the efreet themselves, it chiefly stems from the several gates to Baator that are present in the city. You will note that none of the other major genie capitals have an alignment trait.




> As a follow-up to that, is there any lore as to why djinn are chaos-aligned?


Essentially, they value freedom (unsurprising for air genies).




> They're said to be the genies "most tolerant of servitude to mortals" according to Land of Fate, they have the same fairly rigidly hierarchical society that the other genie races do (which would also imply that marids should be LN rather than CN, but that's another issue), and they swore fealty to the Wind Dukes back in the day, all of which would imply they would lean LG (or at least NG like the Princess of Elemental Good) instead of CG.


Djinn are willing to work with mortals under certain circumstances - they still don't want to be forced to serve them, but a square deal to do a mortal a service in exchange for a commensurate boon serves a djinni just fine, whereas an efreeti will stick to the exact letter of the deal and find a way to twist it, a dao is almost always *required* to twist its service simply by the nature of their powers, and a marid is likely to try to smite a mortal for even asking unless she happens to be in a *very* good mood. While the djinn do have something of an ordered society, it's arranged around freeholds with hired servants and is more in line with the eladrin court than a true feudal system. They consolidate strength for purpose, and that purpose is one they have agreed to (it's a buy-in, not an opt-out).




> Do the Yugoloths extort tolls over the fiendish armies that deploy on Oinos, Khalas and Orthrys, for things like access to portals, permission to travel en masse between locations or to establish temporary military camps in choice spots?


They certainly *try.*




> How powerful/influential are they in terms of determining what Tanar-ari and Baatezu forces get to do on these Layers?


Depends who you ask. The baatezu and tanar'ri would both say they are masters of their own fate and the yugoloths had better get in line if they know what's good for them. The yugoloths would say they are playing the long game and cleverly manipulating both sides into being where the 'loths want them to be, when the 'loths want them to be there. The correct answer is... it varies. There's not a ton the yugoloths can do if a marauding tanar'ri force or a major baatezu contingent decides to go X and do Y, but their leaders do seem to be astonishingly aware of when and where such major forces will show up and what they will be up to.




> Are these NE Bloodwar battlefields existentially dangerous for the demons and devils that fight there in terms of Falling towards neutral evil?


No. Nobody involved would want them to be, either, least of all the yugoloths who would have no use for demons and devils horning in on their figurative territory.

----------


## Bohandas

> I've always imagined axiomatic fauna as being things like spherical cows


and also binary adders. I forgot about them the first time




> As a follow-up to that, is there any lore as to why djinn are chaos-aligned?
> 
> They're said to be the genies "most tolerant of servitude to mortals" according to Land of Fate


That could easily be due to being really chill rather than being into heirarchies and stuff

----------


## Tzardok

A purely hypothetical question: The Plane of Shadow is the metaphysical shadow cast by reality. What is the light source?

----------


## Khedrac

Iirc back in 1st Ed days it used to be the positive energy plane

----------


## Thurbane

There's also a quasi (para?) elemental Plane of Radiance, but I don't think that has any direct relationship to the Plane of Shadow. I think Radiance is opposed by Salt.

----------


## Caelestion

Radiance borders Fire and Positive Energy and Salt borders Water and Negative Energy, so yes, I would agree with you.

----------


## Batcathat

> Radiance borders Fire and Positive Energy and Salt borders Water and Negative Energy, so yes, I would agree with you.


It does seem kind of odd. The opposite of Fire is Water? Okay. The opposite of Positive energy is Negative energy? Sounds good. The opposite of Radiance is... Salt? 

I suppose that might be a good afroquestion: is there a reason for Salt being "opposite" of Radiance?

----------


## enderlord99

> It does seem kind of odd. The opposite of Fire is Water? Okay. The opposite of Positive energy is Negative energy? Sounds good. The opposite of Radiance is... Salt? 
> 
> I suppose that might be a good afroquestion: is there a reason for Salt being "opposite" of Radiance?


Negative Quasielemental planes (like Salt) represent a *notable absence* of the relevant element, rather than its presence.  Salt is what you get when you remove water from an ocean; it also removes water from other things.  Vaccuum is what you get when you remove the air from a sky; it also removes air from other things.  Ash is the corpse of a fire, and cools things down.  Dust is the corpse of stone, and breaks things apart.  They are not so much the opposite of the Positive Quasielemental planes associated with the opposite element, as they are the opposite of the Positive with _the same_ element.  The opposite of Radiance is not Salt, but rather the dullness of Ash.  The opposite of Salt is not Radiance but rather Steam.  I can't justify Steam and Salt being opposites, but they are.

----------


## Bohandas

> Negative Quasielemental planes (like Salt) represent a *notable absence* of the relevant element, rather than its presence.  Salt is what you get when you remove water from an ocean; it also removes water from other things.  Vaccuum is what you get when you remove the air from a sky; it also removes air from other things.  Ash is the corpse of a fire, and cools things down.  Dust is the corpse of stone, and breaks things apart.  They are not so much the opposite of the Positive Quasielemental planes associated with the opposite element, as they are the opposite of the Positive with _the same_ element.  The opposite of Radiance is not Salt, but rather the dullness of Ash.  The opposite of Salt is not Radiance but rather Steam.  I can't justify Steam and Salt being opposites, but they are.


Well you just said that salt is what's left behind if you remove the water from the oceans, and the water would have had to boil away to somewhere, you can't seperate it just by bailing it out.

----------


## Batcathat

I see. That does make some sense. Thanks.

----------


## Svata

> It does seem kind of odd. The opposite of Fire is Water? Okay. The opposite of Positive energy is Negative energy? Sounds good. The opposite of Radiance is... Salt? 
> 
> I suppose that might be a good afroquestion: is there a reason for Salt being "opposite" of Radiance?


Because you have to be not very bright to be THAT salty

----------


## Eurus

The opposition between elemental planes has always been pretty weak, so the quasielemental planes sharing that quality isn't surprising. Fire and water aren't really "opposites" in any sense except a vague cultural connotation, and even air and earth aren't really oppositional so much as just not existing in the same space most of the time.

...or you could say that D&D elements are just different, fire and water _are_ metaphysically opposite, and for that matter so are steam and salt, even if it doesn't really make sense intuitively. This is a setting where "vacuum" is apparently a tangible element rather than an absence, after all.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Caelestion

Vacuum is a plane of endless near-nothingness, an airless void where basically only the Doomguard hang out.

----------


## Tzardok

> Vacuum is a plane of endless near-nothingness, an airless void where basically only the Doomguard hang out.


And Sun Sing, Viceroy of Vacuum.

----------


## Thurbane

> And Sun Sing, Viceroy of Vacuum.


You know, for a second I was expecting a Hoover or other type joke, but you named a real being!  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Tzardok

> You know, for a second I was expecting a Hoover or other type joke, but you named a real being!


Good sir, I would never joke about Sun Sing. He is a gentleman... elemental... void-thingy of culture. You can tell from his alliterative name and title.

----------


## Dalmosh

Rilmani tend to avoid acting in the open, and overt military activity would likely be a last ditch option for them.

Fiend Folio describes Ferrumachs as "countless" in number, and notes that Aurumachs tend to deploy them as mysterious phalanxes of knights in disguise tasked to nudge a battlefield in the direction most befitting the balance.  That seems like it would be more relevant on the Prime (in a Lord of the Rings type scenario) than on the Great Wheel (trying to out-Yugoloth the Yugoloths in the Blood War?). I believe older Planescape sources specified that Rilmani were extremely limited at acting on the Prime, generally acting by dispatching higher leveled solo agents to influence events involving other exemplars - more subtly from behind the scenes.  

Ferrumach soldiers don't seem very subtle; they're frontline assault shock cavalry who don't even have training in bluff or disguise. 

I could see a defensive heavy cavalry legion being more effective in a dead magic zone, but this still doesn't seem like a particularly effective use of this legion.  The standard ferrumach can't even _airwalk_ with its _phantom steed_. If you can't fly, you're going to struggle against a lot of planar armies strong enough to bother the Rilmani in the first place.

So (outside of single regiments occasionally sent elsewhere) what does this massive ferrumach legion actually do?  Is it very well-known and feared on the Great Wheel?  Have there been documented battles where Rilmani have fought openly and at strength?

In a broader sense, is a lack of balance between the Alignments dangerous to the Great Wheel itself? Do Archons place any value in what Rilmani do?

----------


## afroakuma

> A purely hypothetical question: The Plane of Shadow is the metaphysical shadow cast by reality. What is the light source?


Egh, in an abstract sense it's sort of "possibility." Shadow being what it is, the source could be said to be the Vast Medium itself, or to abstract it another way, the refraction of potential from the Positive Energy Planes and their cognates in multiple realities. Shadow is after all not only the shadows of things that are, but also of things that are not (Deep Shadow).




> I suppose that might be a good afroquestion: is there a reason for Salt being "opposite" of Radiance?


As enderlord noted, it's arguable that the true "opposites" of the Quasi-Elemental Planes are those of the same corresponding element but inverse energy border (Radiance/Ash, Steam/Salt, etc.)

However, if we want to look at it on a purely axial level, Radiance is warmth and light, and is a supply of something into an absence of that something, but too much of it is harmful. Salt is cold, dry, and actively takes from around itself (salt will devour water, for instance). However, life needs a bit of salt to exist. It's not that Radiance needs to be opposed by darkness, but rather that it is the giving of something wondrous in dangerous excess, versus a substance that takes and is very mundane and uninspiring but is ultimately necessary despite the danger. You can apply similar theory to Steam vs. Ash (a substance that has realized its full potential but become potentially harmful and of reduced function in doing so, vs. a substance that represents the loss of potential of a thing, but which represents the possibility to create something new from the old), Lightning vs. Dust (temporary but powerful; long-lasting but of no purpose), and Minerals and Vacuum (an aggregate of the presence of things which is valuable for that aggregate, vs. an absolute emptiness, which is valuable for that emptiness).




> So (outside of single regiments occasionally sent elsewhere) what does this massive ferrumach legion actually do?


For the most part, the ferrumachs stand apart in gray fortresses around the perimeter of the Spire's environs. They see action only when the rilmani feel moved to direct intervention in some fashion.




> Is it very well-known and feared on the Great Wheel?


It is not, which is sort of the point; the rilmani don't use their legions to establish their own power; they dispatch the ferrumachs only when it serves the Balance to do so, and the victors of the day tend to attribute their success to their own actions, while the losers tend to blame the victors. It's a known trend among mortals that victors have a tendency to overinflate their own contributions to a success, while losers often nurse vengeful thoughts against those who are celebrating. The rilmani don't claim victory and don't hang around for credit or other involvement. Exemplars are much worse at this than mortals, really, because they represent such big ideas that the notion of concerning themselves with the temporary appearance of some meddling tin warriors in a cosmic war is a bit ridiculous to them.

Needless to say, the rilmani like it that way.




> Have there been documented battles where Rilmani have fought openly and at strength?


No.




> In a broader sense, is a lack of balance between the Alignments dangerous to the Great Wheel itself?


It could be, but it handles self-regulation pretty well most of the time.




> Do Archons place any value in what Rilmani do?


Yyyes... to an extent. To archons, the rilmani represent a kind of "necessary evil." They do *not* appreciate those occasions where the rilmani intervene against the forces of law or good, but they do consider the commitment of the rilmani to a particular ethos its own kind of lawful behavior, which provides a kind of grudging respect. By and large, though, the two rarely interfere with one another.

Now to do a thingy.

*Spoiler: The Onnesk Pantheon*
Show

*The Onnesk Pantheon*

On the Prime world of Ashu'an in the remote sphere of Granitespace, a hybrid pantheon exists which is worshipped by all native races on the continent of Onneska, and by extension the border communities on the other two continents, Telwras and Zanpeck. The Onnesk pantheon sees major deities of other racial pantheons worshipped in a particular aspect - for instance, Moradin, on Ashu'an, is not the patron of dwarves, but the god of the forge, of creation, and blacksmiths from all peoples pay him homage. It is constituted of Corellon Larethian, whose portfolio here is limited to the woodlands; Moradin, who is patron of blacksmithing and the forge; Garl Glittergold, god of humor and deception; Gruumsh, god of slaughter and violence; and Yondalla, goddess of hearth and home. In addition, native deities and a few interlopers (Hishrak, Romas, Uria) fill out the pantheon. This pantheon was originally presented in Dragon 283 as the "mix-and-match pantheon" in the article "Do-It-Yourself Deities."

*Amora*
Lesser Power of Bytopia
_Lady of Limerence, Heartsquest, the Witch of the Rose, Muse of the Lovelorn_
*Alignment:* Neutral good
*Portfolio:* Love, romance, the search for love, quests for love
*Divine Realm:* Bytopia/Dothion/Stars' Cross, formerly Elysium/Amoria/Stars' Cross
*Symbol:* A rose with its thorns curled around it
*Domains:* Air, Charm, Good, Healing
*Favored Weapon:* Javelin

Amora is the patron of love and lovers, the cast of her javelin pointing the way for the lovelorn to seek out their other half. The second-youngest of the Onnesk pantheon, Amora is on good terms with Yondalla in particular, as well as some of the love deities of other pantheons, though unlike many of her peers she is not chaotic in nature. Indeed, Amora celebrates and protects those already in love, though there are those who remark that she was born of a thrown javelin and has its same personality, being able to pierce the very heart and transfix her target utterly. Amora is able to counsel both patience and passion, for she knows that true love is a matter of the right time, not the right now. 

*Aos*
Lesser Power of Ysgard
_Turncoin, Lord of Luxuries, Master of Merchants, Brother of Bandits_
*Alignment:* True neutral
*Portfolio:* Wealth, profit
*Divine Realm:* Ysgard/Nidavellir/the Alexandrite City
*Symbol:* A coin tilted diagonally
*Domains:* Luck, Trade, Travel, Trickery, Wealth
*Favored Weapon:* Dagger

Though at one time he had hoped to make his realm part of the Marketplace Eternal on the Outlands, Aos was found wanting by his would-be peers, who refused his petition due to his insatiable need to acquire wealth by any means. A patron of both merchants and thieves, Aos represents an unusual kind of neutrality - he is both lawful where trade is concerned, and chaotic where matters of possession come into play. To Aos, money must flow, and that which does not change hands above the counter deserves to change hands in the shadows. Aos does not concern himself with the loser in any such transaction, as he reasons that what goes around comes around, and through his patronage all will eventually find themselves prosperous in their turn. Of course, some never have their turn before their allotted time elapses... but he's working on that, honest! Aos is depicted both fat and skinny, with a heavy mantle that sometimes covers his crooked grin, and eyes of two different colors - one green, one red. It is said that within the pockets of his cloak and coat can be found anything a mortal would desire.

*Argena*
Lesser Power of Arborea
_The Silver Eye, Sunchaser, Wanderstar, Lady Quicksilver_
*Alignment:* Chaotic good
*Portfolio:* The moon, healing, rest
*Divine Realm:* Arborea/Ossa/Island of Silver
*Symbol:* A crescent moon over water
*Domains:* Chaos, Good, Healing, Moon, Protection, Trickery
*Favored Weapon:* Rapier

The wife of Solis, Argena is said in Onnesk myths to forever chase her husband through the skies, where the two rarely meet, for hers is custody over night, rest, and healing, while her husband is the fiery sun. It is said that the moon's phases shift as Argena's search runs afoul of distractions, causing her silvery eye to fully appear only rarely, and that on nights of the new moon she has found her husband and is enjoying her time with him in the manner that couples often do. Argena is known to be a bit of an adventurer, and her clerics follow her example, going forth to protect others from tyranny and offer healing for the deserving and comeuppance for their tormentors. With her husband, Argena is the oldest native deity of the Onnesk pantheon, and she is mother of Coreth, Aos, Amora, and Neleva, as well as an unknown god slain by Hishrak, who has her eternal enmity as a result.

*Coreth*
Lesser Power of Limbo
_Shaper of Life, the Breath of Light, Daughter of Sun and Moon, the Peace and Grace of Life_
*Alignment:* True neutral
*Portfolio:* Nature
*Divine Realm:* Limbo/the Primal Garden
*Symbol:* A clover composed of four rings
*Domains:* Animal, Balance, Earth, Plant, Sun
*Favored Weapon:* Handaxe

Perhaps due to her relative youth as nature deities go, Coreth is a bit unusual, for her philosophy is that all things that act as part of nature have their place in it, a philosophy that extends even to creatures such as neogi, beholders, and aboleths. Only a very few things, such as undead or illithids, draw her ire. The rest... well, while the first owlbears on other worlds were the work of mad mages, on Ashu'an they were created by Coreth because she believed they would have a place in nature. This attitude is passed down to her druids and clerics, who receive grudging respect and general safe passage from most intelligent creatures as Coreth does not make demands of them. Coreth is zealous in defense of the natural world and fiercely opposes undead, mind flayers, and outsiders of any kind. Her realm is one vast experiment where the goddess's whims and dreams come forth as new creatures for her to consider bringing forth on the world. Coreth is depicted as a bald young woman with glowing green eyes, wearing four bracelets made of the four elements, typically kneeling in mud or clay that she shapes with her hands.

*Hishrak*
Lesser Power of Baator
_The Venomous, the Traitor Defiant, Great Lord of Power, Hatesworn_
*Alignment:* Lawful evil
*Portfolio:* Tyranny, subjugation, power
*Divine Realm:* Baator/Minauros/Atyachari
*Symbol:* A cobra's head
*Domains:* Destruction, Evil, Law, Magic, Scalykind, War
*Favored Weapon:* Kukri

An interloper deity who posed as a power of healing and nature, Hishrak betrayed Solis and Argena, who had charged him with oversight of Telwras in tandem with their only child, devouring the weaker deity and causing a calamity that destroyed the great civilization of that continent. Absolute hunger for power characterizes Hishrak, who plots against every other deity, seeing them all as rivals and prospective sources of new power. The cobra-headed god promotes sorcerer-tyrants and wants to complete his conquest of Telwras, where survivors of the original cataclysm have begun to rebuild a society in the ruins of the ancient lands. Before he can make this move, however, his cult must first ensure that his foothold on Onneska is strong enough to withstand the reprisal of others. Hishrak has no divine allies and is particularly despised by other deities of Baator. His newest plan involves stealing the secrets of the somnolent Abyssal god Merrshaulk in order to create an army of yuan-ti. Hishrak maintains a full-time presence on Ashu'an via a powerful artifact, a ruby known as the Star of Power, which allows the dark god to emanate a direct investiture of his power into a humanoid vessel known only as the God-Tyrant. 

*Intara*
Lesser Power of the Beastlands
_Lady of the Uncertain, Farwitness, Mistress of the Chimera Throne, Queen of Silence_
*Alignment:* True neutral
*Portfolio:* Magic
*Divine Realm:* Beastlands/Karasuthra/The Chimera Throne
*Symbol:* Chimera
*Domains:* Dream, Knowledge, Magic, Trickery
*Favored Weapon:* Mace

The sometimes capricious goddess of magic, Intara keeps her own counsel and rarely involves herself in matters of the broader pantheon. She is known to have entertained a brief dalliance with Corellon Larethian in ages past, though it was largely a matter of academic curiosity for the goddess, who deemed it "unremarkable" and moved on, rebuking Corellon's gambit to extend his portfolio in the Onnesk pantheon to include elements of magic. Intara is an interloper deity whose shifting allegiances have ended up ensuring that the divine family at the heart of the Onnesk pantheon never fully bands together for any purpose, which indirectly benefits the gods of darkness who never have to face the combined might of the rest of the pantheon as a result. Regardless, Intara is no more aligned with the forces of evil than she is with those of good; she considers Solis and Argena frivolous, the elder gods too narrow in their ambitions, but Hishrak's lust for power often threatens the power and authority of the Chimera Throne. Why Intara chose the chimera as her symbol is not known, but some believe it has to do with the three continents of Ashu'an corresponding to the three heads of her patron beast. In most depictions she appears as a scantily clad or nude woman bearing dragon scales and wings which she wraps around herself like a cloak. 

*Neleva*
Lesser Power of Mechanus
_Sister Vengeant, Daughter of Law, Lady of the Wheel, the Fire of Judgment_
*Alignment:* Lawful neutral
*Portfolio:* Justice, retribution, vengeance
*Divine Realm:* Mechanus/the Reckoning Wheel
*Symbol:* A wheel with swords for spokes
*Domains:* Destruction, Law, Protection, Retribution, Strength
*Favored Weapon:* Longsword

Youngest of the Onnesk pantheon, Neleva was born from her father's grief and her mother's rage when Hishrak betrayed them and slew her older brother. Filled with Solis's restraint and measure, but turned from true good by Argena's burning wrath, Neleva represents not only impartial justice but also righteous consequence and personal vengeance. Her symbol is a wheel, and her oath says that one day she will capture Hishrak and crush him in the teeth of the cog of Mechanus over which she rules. Though she is depicted bathed in righteous flame in artwork, Neleva has no inherent power over fire - however, dwarves swear that weapons forged in her name carry a sharper edge and find themselves with a superior temper, and to them the association with fire is culturally essential. Neleva has come to find hatred for Gruumsh, though she recognizes that she has limited capacity to act against the senior god except in opposing his followers across Ashu'an. She bears a cold respect for Uria, whose impartial and immovable verdicts may not always feel just but are in essence fair. Neleva is depicted as a brunette warrior with facial scars, wearing splint mail and brandishing a longsword and a round shield.

*Romas*
Lesser Power of Ysgard
_Captain of Carracks, Netfiller, Windrider, Stormstrike_
*Alignment:* Chaotic neutral
*Portfolio:* Sailors, fishermen, seas, storms
*Divine Realm:* Ysgard/Ysgard/the Wind Carrack
*Symbol:* A trident piercing a cloud
*Domains:* Air, Chaos, Ocean, Storm, Water
*Favored Weapon:* Trident

The wild god of the seas, Romas is an interloper god associated with fierce weather, invited by Argena to join the pantheon in response to the complaints of her husband that she made the tides too uncertain. Sailors note that this was less a solution and more of a method of shifting the blame and tweaking the sun god's nose, as Romas is a high-spirited mad corsair of the skies, forever chasing storms with his nets and casting the underwhelming ones down to Ashu'an. Given that he makes his residence on fierce Ysgard, an "underwhelming catch" may still prove to be a colossal typhoon. The Windrider has his moments of malice, but is generally on the side of seafarers and makes his apology known with rich shoals and full nets whenever a storm should do something too catastrophic. Provided he remembers. Romas gets on well with Garl Glittergold and generally ignores Gruumsh, while despising Hishrak for his hunger to subjugate and control all things that are free and wild, and loathing Uria for her attempts to force fate on mortals who should be free. Romas is depicted as a grinning bearded half-orc with wild locks and eyes filled with blue lightning.

*Solis*
Lesser Power of Celestia
_Father of Hope, Lightgiver, the Golden Flame, Archer of Light_
*Alignment:* Lawful good
*Portfolio:* The sun, farmers, inspiration, courage
*Divine Realm:* Celestia/Mercuria/Orchards of the Sun
*Symbol:* An arrow piercing the sun
*Domains:* Courage, Good, Healing, Law, Strength, Sun
*Favored Weapon:* Longbow

The patriarch of the native Onnesk gods and husband of Argena, Solis is forever chasing after his wife in the sky, trying to find time with her despite their duties. With his vow to never surrender his post, he cannot yield in the chase to be caught by her, causing Argena no small amount of frustration as her moon must vanish from the skies once a month so that she can spend time with him. She gets him back via a series of pranks that the lawful sun god never sees coming. Solis is a patron of rangers and paladins, but other warriors look to the rest of his family for worship, considering the stolid and paternal deity too concerned with peace for their liking. Solis gets on with Moradin and Yondalla has a tolerant dynamic with Corellon and Garl Glittergold, while Gruumsh he considers valuable as an example of how not to live. Uria is a member of the pantheon at his instigation, with some believing the goddess had an affair with him in an ancient time and is blackmailing him. The truth according to his church is that Solis wanted to establish history and purpose in the world, which necessitated a death deity to ensure change, progress, and renewal. As this sounds more like his wife's attitude, some suggest that it was Argena, not Solis, that had the affair. Solis is depicted as a man of roughly 50, with a clean-shaven lantern jaw, reddish hair going silvery at the temples, and comfortable leather garb. 

*Uria*
Lesser Power of Acheron
_Crowngiver, the Ashen Lady, Maiden of History's Veil, She Who Sets The Course_
*Alignment:* Neutral evil
*Portfolio:* Death, ruin, fate, legacy, longevity
*Divine Realm:* Acheron/Thuldanin/Hall of the Crowned
*Symbol:* Crowned skull
*Domains:* Death, Destruction, Evil, Fate, Nobility
*Favored Weapon:* Ranseur

Part of a loose trinity in the pantheon opposite Yondalla and anchored by Coreth, Uria is a goddess associated with the trappings of royalty, for she is said to strike the course of a mortal's life at the hour of their birth with her unfailing ranseur. Known as a cold and unfeeling goddess, she is venerated by those of a dark bent who wish mastery over the powers of death and undeath, but equally she is propitiated by those hoping to better their station and willing to pay any price to do so, and appeased in offerings from those who hold great station in life and fear that she will bring them ruin. Her church are custodians of great tomes of history, and she alone among the powers of evil holds a great and prominent place in civilized society, for her "evil" manifests more as amorality, dispassion, and merciless disposition. Uria has no need for deep plots or active malice; fate and history are within her gift, and she is darkly confident that all will fall under her sway given time. Uria is depicted as a young, slender, pretty but unsmiling woman with blonde hair, carrying a heavy black tome and a pen that shifts to become a great ranseur. Crowns hang from the waist sash of her gown, and the bony fingers of skeletons form its fringe.

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## enderlord99

Just to double-check: the only way to be immune to an Obyrith's _Form of Madness_ is to have the Obyrith subtype yourself, right?

Or are Satut also immune to it?

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## Bohandas

> Just to double-check: the only way to be immune to an Obyrith's _Form of Madness_ is to have the Obyrith subtype yourself, right?



IIRC it's generally sufficient to be any chaotic evil outsider or immune to mind-influencing effects.

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## Silly Name

A few questions on the Ancient Brethren and Vecna:

How much credence should be given to the claim that the Lady of Pain is one of them? Jazirian and Ahriman seem, along with the Serpent, to form a theme of serpentine/draconic members of this "pantheon" while the Lady... doesn't. Still, it seems like an interesting theory.

On that topic, how do you feel about the story told in _Guide to Hell_ regarding Asmodeus' origins and identity as Ahriman? I personally prefer it to other versions, but your mileage may vary, of course.

What are the odds the Serpent is actually just a product of Vecna's madness? How do the Ancient Brethren fit in established cosmology and history of the Wheel?

Has there ever been a definitive statement on how Vecna achieved lichdom? Was it the Serpent who taught him the ritual?

What's the relationship between Vecna and the Serpent like after the Arch-Lich achieved godhood? Does the Serpent still "speak" to Vecna, or...?

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## Tzardok

There was a discussion on Vecna and the Serpent in the 7th Planar Questions Thread. It starts here.

But the gist is this:




> The "Ancient Brethren" are the product of a misreading between Vecna Reborn and Die, Vecna, Die! on the part of the authors of the latter. The term was not originally intended to refer to the Serpent at all, but rather to Vecna's ancestors, a people also known as the Ur-Flan.
> 
> My take is that the Serpent, given Vecna's history and its own characteristics, is most likely a vestige, a truly rare one at that, and that the Whispered One was in his early youth a binder. If pact magic was the secret practice passed down by Mazzel, it might explain her condemnation and execution for "witchcraft" - she was unable to prevent herself from displaying the sign of a patron.

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## redking

> What are the odds the Serpent is actually just a product of Vecna's madness?


I think the designers intention is to leave the Serpent's existence as an open question. Here is a possibility that I haven't seen discussed before - Vecna IS the Serpent. The Serpent is Vecna in the future, guiding himself paradoxically into the future.

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## Silly Name

> I think the designers intention is to leave the Serpent's existence as an open question. Here is a possibility that I haven't seen discussed before - Vecna IS the Serpent. The Serpent is Vecna in the future, guiding himself paradoxically into the future.


That's certainly an interesting idea! May make it canon in a few games.

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## afroakuma

> A few questions on the Ancient Brethren and Vecna:
> 
> How much credence should be given to the claim that the Lady of Pain is one of them? Jazirian and Ahriman seem, along with the Serpent, to form a theme of serpentine/draconic members of this "pantheon" while the Lady... doesn't. Still, it seems like an interesting theory.


If this is a theory you wish to adhere to, one thought is that the Lady might be a third serpent, of neutrality, to go along with Jazirian and Ahriman, and that the body of a serpent biting its own tail would very much resemble some kind of vast ring...

Now that said, I give the whole thing absolutely zero credence, but it's open-ended.




> On that topic, how do you feel about the story told in _Guide to Hell_ regarding Asmodeus' origins and identity as Ahriman? I personally prefer it to other versions, but your mileage may vary, of course.


I don't buy into it, but again, your mileage may vary. It's not considered canonical to answers in this thread.




> What are the odds the Serpent is actually just a product of Vecna's madness? How do the Ancient Brethren fit in established cosmology and history of the Wheel?


As noted in what Tzardok quoted, the whole "Ancient Brethren" thing is a misreading that propagated through a few modules. I don't believe the Serpent was Vecna's own madness (at least not originally, though doubtless that's blended in there somewhere), but rather a kind of ancient and unknown vestige.




> Has there ever been a definitive statement on how Vecna achieved lichdom? Was it the Serpent who taught him the ritual?


There was... in 5E. That said, it's not a terrible answer, so I'm inclined to adopt it - he was provided the ritual by Orcus himself.




> What's the relationship between Vecna and the Serpent like after the Arch-Lich achieved godhood? Does the Serpent still "speak" to Vecna, or...?


I don't recall seeing any references to the Serpent continuing to have contact with Vecna now that he's a full deity rather than a demipower. I suspect that one way or another, Vecna has severed himself from the entity, though whether that was voluntary or a function of becoming a deity is unknown. My guess is that as a deity he recognized how dangerous it was to continue to bind a vestige to his own essence and that there was a substantial risk of something calamitous happening if he didn't. It's quite possible that the god Vecna we have now is actually some kind of hybrid of the original lich and the Serpent and that he was too late - in a moment of weakness after he was ejected from Sigil, the Serpent struck, and while neither won, the Serpent came away with much more than Vecna wanted to give.

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## Silly Name

> If this is a theory you wish to adhere to, one thought is that the Lady might be a third serpent, of neutrality, to go along with Jazirian and Ahriman, and that the body of a serpent biting its own tail would very much resemble some kind of vast ring...
> 
> Now that said, I give the whole thing absolutely zero credence, but it's open-ended.


Definitely an interesting take. It's not so much as a theory I want to adhere to, and more an obscure bit of lore I wanted to examine. It definitely has been fascinating me for some time, however.




> As noted in what Tzardok quoted, the whole "Ancient Brethren" thing is a misreading that propagated through a few modules. I don't believe the Serpent was Vecna's own madness (at least not originally, though doubtless that's blended in there somewhere), but rather a kind of ancient and unknown vestige.


I'm a bit sad to hear that because the whole idea seemed interesting. The Serpent as a vestige however is also quite the cool idea, since I've wanted to delve into Binding for a while but none of my players ever roll up a Binder. Who knows, if they ever do I may make them run into this strange being.




> It's quite possible that the god Vecna we have now is actually some kind of hybrid of the original lich and the Serpent and that he was too late - in a moment of weakness after he was ejected from Sigil, the Serpent struck, and while neither won, the Serpent came away with much more than Vecna wanted to give.


Uh, this is _definitely_ vying to become my headcanon now. 

Btw, does this mean Vecna was also a Binder on top of a Wizard? His mom being one is definitely something I could agree with, and I guess it does fit Vecna's obsession with secret and hidden things, even if he only ever bound himself to the Serpent.

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## afroakuma

> Definitely an interesting take. It's not so much as a theory I want to adhere to, and more an obscure bit of lore I wanted to examine. It definitely has been fascinating me for some time, however.


It's definitely interesting lore, but my own take is that it's one of the many rumors that Asmodeus has allowed out into the Planes to obscure his true history. It does have some grains of truth to it - he definitely *was* an ancient being of Law, and definitely *did* fall, but it omits that Asmodeus is provably a baatezu and the ancient baatorians supersede him as a more foundational form of evil in the Nine Hells.




> I'm a bit sad to hear that because the whole idea seemed interesting. The Serpent as a vestige however is also quite the cool idea, since I've wanted to delve into Binding for a while but none of my players ever roll up a Binder. Who knows, if they ever do I may make them run into this strange being.


Personally I don't know what it would really end up doing if it *were* true - it doesn't actually end up going anywhere, all it suggests is that beings we already know of are a kind of super-ancient group that... doesn't collaborate, doesn't deal with one another, possesses vastly differing power levels ranging from "mere god" to "lynchpin of the cosmos," and has no central agenda or purpose of any kind. That's Marvel Comics writing - "here are an even bigger and more ominous group of omniscient omnipotent watchers from afar who do nothing!"




> Uh, this is _definitely_ vying to become my headcanon now.


 :Small Big Grin: 




> Btw, does this mean Vecna was also a Binder on top of a Wizard? His mom being one is definitely something I could agree with, and I guess it does fit Vecna's obsession with secret and hidden things, even if he only ever bound himself to the Serpent.


Most likely, Mazzel was an actual trained and practiced binder in keeping with ancient Ur-Flan traditions, and Vecna was... neither of those things. He picked up bits and bobs in his childhood from Mazzel, but he'd be like... Bnd1/Wiz19 if you actually looked at his 20th-level build, or possibly even Wiz20 with some kind of feat allowing him to bind a single vestige. He's never been one to run around binding, say, Andromalius or Haagenti or the like. Odds are that he spent most of his life (and potentially a good portion of his undeath) believing his pact with the Serpent was just a form of ancient magic his mother passed down as his heritage, as opposed to understanding pact magic in  a broader sense. He almost certainly knows *now*... but as my above suggestion indicates, "now" may be much too late...

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## Bohandas

Why does the elemental plane of fire have a surface? The other five primary inner planes are continuous blocks of their element, extending forever in all three dimensions. Fire alone has a division between land and sky. Why?

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## Khedrac

> Why does the elemental plane of fire have a surface? The other five primary inner planes are continuous blocks of their element, extending forever in all three dimensions. Fire alone has a division between land and sky. Why?


As far as I am aware fire is exactly the same as the other elemental planes in this respect.  What they do all have, however, is enclosures of other elements within them - pockets of air, earth, fire or water (or possibly para- or quasi- elements).  As such these enclosures are often the focus for permanent structures - so in the planes of Air and Water (and Fire?) lumps of earth enable the building of more complex permanent structures than are otherwise possible (pockets of Air do the same for the plane of Earth).

So references to a "sky" in the plane of Fire (I am guessing that this is in relation to the City of Brass) presumably refer to an immense pocket of Air that forms a "sky" for all the points on its surface.

On other possibility is that the elements, especially Fire, don't just form in one type of matter (gas, solid, liquid) in the planes - so on the plane of Fire you can have structures built on solid fire with a lake of liquid fire lapping at the gates and a sky of gaseous fire above them.
Of course, this approach is easy for water (ice, water and fog) but hard for earth (magma/ooze and err, not sure what the gaseous form should be) but these forms usually to us mentally require the involvement of another element to change the temperature or nature of the base element (usually heat or cold).
And if you want to invoke RL physics, a flame is usually a gas heated to the plasma state (i.e. stripped ions) so the problem in the plane of Fire is not the sky, it is the ground - as in the plane of Air the default state is effectively gas.

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## Beni-Kujaku

The thing is, fire is not an element in the sense that earth, water and air are. Earth is a combination of several minerals, air is a combination of several gases, water is just water, but in the D&D universe, it's a combination of several liquids (just mostly water). Fire is a phenomenon, it's the light and radiations emitted by some heated matter, and the chemical reaction that oxydizes it. In that sense, anything can "be" fire. If something is just hot enough that it starts radiating and getting consumed, then it is on fire. Fire is just energy, and since a plane only made of energy doesn't make sense, it becomes "like the Prime, but with so much energy and heat everywhere that everything is on constantly on fire". 

I even suspect that in the D&D universe, since elemental planes tend to spread into other planes through portals and "elemental bubbles", the only reason why everything can move and has energy to begin with is because the Elemental Plane of Fire spewed just enough energy to ignite a few things. Like stars, or the Big Bang.

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## Tzardok

"A plane made of energy doesn't make sense"? And what are the _Energy_ Planes then? Chopped liver?  :Small Confused:

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## Batcathat

> "A plane made of energy doesn't make sense"? And what are the _Energy_ Planes then? Chopped liver?


Welcome to the Demiplane of Chopped Liver  the worst smelling place in the Multiverse!

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## Beni-Kujaku

> "A plane made of energy doesn't make sense"? And what are the _Energy_ Planes then? Chopped liver?


Point taken ^^ Though the Positive Plane is not really the most interesting place in the cosmology, since the whole concept is "so much life that it is death", and the Negative Energy Plane does have some undead that "live" there and can build their lair in the plane.

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## Efrate

Interestingly the negative energy planes doesn't have the overflow equals death for undead that one might expect.  Or them rotting away to nothing. I wonder if that's another example of "evil" gets all the cool toys. Or if undead somehow leak negative energy or acts as vectors of a sort, which begs the of question about why with the sheer amount of undead there are and them being effectively immortal, why have catastrophic entropy events not happened on prime with semi regular frequency.

I know the answer is because wotc/tsr did not think through stuff and how it applies, but it does create an interesting thought exercise.   Especially despite most authors of game materials seem to push the narrative that negative energy is evil and positive good, despite both being just another force like earth or air that makes up the universe.

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## Silly Name

> Interestingly the negative energy planes doesn't have the overflow equals death for undead that one might expect.  Or them rotting away to nothing. I wonder if that's another example of "evil" gets all the cool toys. Or if undead somehow leak negative energy or acts as vectors of a sort, which begs the of question about why with the sheer amount of undead there are and them being effectively immortal, why have catastrophic entropy events not happened on prime with semi regular frequency.


Most undead seem to have a need/want to feed on the living and their life force in various ways. This parasitic nature may explain why they can't overflow on Negative Energy the same way living beings can burst out from too much Positive Energy.

Most undead creatures are "effectively immortal" only in theory: a zombie or a skeleton doesn't exactly have a long unlife expectancy, and very few creatures live more than a few centuries.

----------


## Bohandas

> As far as I am aware fire is exactly the same as the other elemental planes in this respect.  What they do all have, however, is enclosures of other elements within them - pockets of air, earth, fire or water (or possibly para- or quasi- elements).  As such these enclosures are often the focus for permanent structures - so in the planes of Air and Water (and Fire?) lumps of earth enable the building of more complex permanent structures than are otherwise possible (pockets of Air do the same for the plane of Earth).


"The 'ground' beneath one's feet is made of heavier flame, ash, and debris, but it provides footing similar to the ground on the Material Plane." -Manual of the Planes 3e pg 74

The Elemental Plane of Fire has a relatively firm surface, making ground-based movement akin to walking across flaming coals. The coals themselves are only slightly cooler pieces of elemental fire, and often a traveler sinks ankle-deep into the flaming mire of the plane. Flying creatures find the atmosphere above this surface to be thin but usable. Nonnatives find their fly speed halved and maneuverability reduced by one grade when flying on the Elemental Plane of Fire" -Manual of the Planes 3e pg 75

----------


## Thurbane

> Interestingly the negative energy planes doesn't have the overflow equals death for undead that one might expect.  Or them rotting away to nothing. I wonder if that's another example of "evil" gets all the cool toys.


My experience in 3E has been the opposite - most things aimed at good beings (PrCs, feats, spells, items) are usually mechanically better than those aimed at evil, with a few exceptions.

----------


## Sharqking

I know the stars and constellations on a crystal spheres are portals to the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Radiance, but are the suns/stars that are in a sphere also a portal? Or house a portal inside them?


If one were to have a large permenant portal to the Plane of Radiance underground (in like massive cavern or something), would it function essentially like an underground sun?

----------


## Tzardok

> I know the stars and constellations on a crystal spheres are portals to the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Radiance, but are the suns/stars that are in a sphere also a portal? Or house a portal inside them?
> 
> 
> If one were to have a large permenant portal to the Plane of Radiance underground (in like massive cavern or something), would it function essentially like an underground sun?


Not all stars are portals ("vortices"), some are bits of elemental fire floating around or giant glowing insects or whatever.

It is generally believed that many suns are connected to Fire or Radiance, yes.

I don't think you'll find many connections to Radiance underground. IIRC a proper vortex can only form in places where the respective element is already prevalent: gates to Earth in caves, gates to Air on windswept peaks, gates to Water underwater, gates to Fire in volcanoes. I'm not sure where you would find a connection to Radiance, but underground...

----------


## unseenmage

> Not all stars are portals ("vortices"), some are bits of elemental fire floating around or giant glowing insects or whatever.
> 
> It is generally believed that many suns are connected to Fire or Radiance, yes.
> 
> I don't think you'll find many connections to Radiance underground. IIRC a proper vortex can only form in places where the respective element is already prevalent: gates to Earth in caves, gates to Air on windswept peaks, gates to Water underwater, gates to Fire in volcanoes. I'm not sure where you would find a connection to Radiance, but underground...


Perhaps in a place already bathed in luminescence or glowing radiation or ssomething?

The Underdark book has some sources of light for in the deep but I don't think any of them are Plane of Radiance gate material. 

If there was something relatively natural that glowed at sun-like intensity I would imagine it to be a verybadthing to have trapped in an enclosed chamber of stone and earth. 
At the very least I would have it be Geiger counter breakingly radioactive.

----------


## Sharqking

> I don't think you'll find many connections to Radiance underground. IIRC a proper vortex can only form in places where the respective element is already prevalent: gates to Earth in caves, gates to Air on windswept peaks, gates to Water underwater, gates to Fire in volcanoes. I'm not sure where you would find a connection to Radiance, but underground...



Duly noted, thank you!
I was more wondering how such a thing would look (and more specifically how it produces light) then if it is possible.

Like, would it produce light like a star, an omnidirectional type of source that never dulls? Or would it be more like a flashlight, where the rim of the vortex starts off as the boundary but it expands out like a cone? Or would it be a strobe effect like a rave, with the lights moving and being constantly different colors? Or a real bright aurora borealis?

Is the Plane of Radiance just light (barring pockets from other planes)? Or is it a "tangible light", like a plasma or something? The Inner Planes 2e book does mention "solid light" for the Refuge of Color, but only mentions it and doesn't go into details.

----------


## afroakuma

> Why does the elemental plane of fire have a surface? The other five primary inner planes are continuous blocks of their element, extending forever in all three dimensions. Fire alone has a division between land and sky. Why?


It's important to note that the others also have unusual pockets of their own "stuff" as it were. We just don't usually consider it because it's easy to conceptualize "nothing but air," "nothing but water," and "nothing but earth." However, the Elemental Plane of Air has liquid air, solid air, crystalline air, all kinds of exotic forms of elemental air. The same is true of the rest. Fire, in turn, has "solid fire" and "airy fire" as two of the more pedestrian kinds of local whatnottery. Note that this does not in any way mean that they are super *common* - that's the catch, that because our attention gravitates toward those sites which are innately more accessible to the kinds of creatures we pay attention to, we hear more about the City of Brass than, say, the Plain of Blue Infernos, which looks just like another huge rolling sheet of flame without solid surface except it's blue. To the locals, it's interesting in the same way that a field of blue flowers breaks up the monotony of a landscape of grassy plains, but to Primes, it's just a different colored part of the hellsoup of barbecue and pain that will kill you super dead and you can't walk on it because it's just pure fire.

The conceit of the Elemental Plane of Fire being more conventionally "surface terrain + air" is a later edition thing and not germane to this thread. I promise you that as far as 3.5 and before are concerned, Fire is absolutely a hellsoup and we just tend to pay attention to the croutons.




> Point taken ^^ Though the Positive Plane is not really the most interesting place in the cosmology, since the whole concept is "so much life that it is death", and the Negative Energy Plane does have some undead that "live" there and can build their lair in the plane.


There are still sites of interest in each, but they do tend to get less development, yeah.




> Interestingly the negative energy planes doesn't have the overflow equals death for undead that one might expect.  Or them rotting away to nothing. I wonder if that's another example of "evil" gets all the cool toys. Or if undead somehow leak negative energy or acts as vectors of a sort, which begs the of question about why with the sheer amount of undead there are and them being effectively immortal, why have catastrophic entropy events not happened on prime with semi regular frequency.
> 
> I know the answer is because wotc/tsr did not think through stuff and how it applies, but it does create an interesting thought exercise.   Especially despite most authors of game materials seem to push the narrative that negative energy is evil and positive good, despite both being just another force like earth or air that makes up the universe.


Hilariously in terms of "did not think through stuff," undead are actually not in any way harmed by the Positive Energy Plane, and are in fact stupidly hard to destroy there, because RAW as "creatures" they benefit from the fast healing, but as undead they are immune to any effect which requires a Fortitude save (the detonation from being overstuffed) unless it also applies to objects, which the positive-dominant trait does not. RAI, they should pretty much vaporize on the plane.




> My experience in 3E has been the opposite - most things aimed at good beings (PrCs, feats, spells, items) are usually mechanically better than those aimed at evil, with a few exceptions.


Hoping to have the chance one day to do some homebrew to steer away from that. I like my goblinoids.




> I know the stars and constellations on a crystal spheres are portals to the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Radiance, but are the suns/stars that are in a sphere also a portal? Or house a portal inside them?


Rift moreso than portal, and many are, yes. Stars on a crystal sphere can be *many* different things, however; by no means are all of them or even most of them rifts to Radiance.




> If one were to have a large permenant portal to the Plane of Radiance underground (in like massive cavern or something), would it function essentially like an underground sun?


It *could* - again, more likely for a rift than a portal. Picture a rift as an actual hole in the wall where one was not supposed to be, whereas a portal is a doorway and at the bare minimum has a curtain of beads or those thin plastic slats or *something* clearly delineating that "you are now moving from point A to point B and some things shouldn't."




> I was more wondering how such a thing would look (and more specifically how it produces light) then if it is possible.


The fun thing about portals is that they can look like absolutely anything, they do *not* have to follow the standard template of "two-dimensional disc that seems like a window to another world." A portal could be a shallow pool, a pure iron sphere floating in midair, an obelisk, a patch of grass where the wind whips up with greater ferocity. A rift will always look more like a window because it's not stable; it's a hole between two places. A rift could be omnidirectional, it could blink in and out erratically, it could be swirly and coruscating; take your pick really. Whatever you want it to look like, it can do.




> Is the Plane of Radiance just light (barring pockets from other planes)? Or is it a "tangible light", like a plasma or something? The Inner Planes 2e book does mention "solid light" for the Refuge of Color, but only mentions it and doesn't go into details.


Most of it is just heat and light - rather intensely for both. It's not plasma, though there are places where you would find plasma, certainly. There are also places where you could find glowing liquid that behaves like water, or as you noted above, "solid light." These are quite uncommon, however.

----------


## Caelestion

As I recall, the borderlands between Radiance and Mineral are called the Glowing Lands and are genuinely radioactive, in the very modern sense of that term.

----------


## Thurbane

> As I recall, the borderlands between Radiance and Mineral are called the Glowing Lands and are genuinely radioactive, in the very modern sense of that term.


Interesting. Maybe you can use that whacky radiation effect table from RttTotF.

----------


## PairO'Dice Lost

> As I recall, the borderlands between Radiance and Mineral are called the Glowing Lands and are genuinely radioactive, in the very modern sense of that term.


Close, it's the Glowing Dunes between Radiance and Magma:




> If a traveler opts to change course just a bit, he eventually reaches the quasiplane of Radiance.  Before he does, however, he passes through one of the deadliest places in all the Inner Planes: the Glowing Dunes.  This is a region of rolling hills first made up of volcanic ash.  Nearer the quasiplane of Radiance, the dust becomes more metallic and gradually begins to radiate light and energy.  Whatever the nature of these magical emanations, they present a deadly threat to every living thing.
> 
> Those who travel through the area must make a saving throw vs. death magic each day.  Any poor creature who fails this roll becomes afflicted with a horrible disease or curse (no one knows which for sure).  Before long, nausea sets in.  This is followed by blistering skin, hair loss, bleeding gums, blindness, and countless other nasty symptoms before the victim dies in 3d20 painful days.  All in all, a more unpleasant death would be difficult to imagine.
> 
> No cure, not even a magical one, is known to help, though rumor has it that a loam found in the plane of Earth or a plant growing deep within the plane of Water may alleviate the condition before the victim dies.

----------


## Dalmosh

In Afrocanon, what is the connection between the Black Abyss demiplane (Dragon 353) and the Slaadi?

----------


## Laughing Dog

Can't believe I forgot to check Manual of the Planes. :Small Sigh:   Sorry about the long response time, and thanks to those who answered.

While I'm here, I figure I'll ask a few questions and pick some brains.

1.) While I know about Aasimar, Tieflings, Mechanatrixs (Mechanatixi?); is there a chaos-aligned Planetouched race?  If not, why not?
2.) In Neverwinter Nights 2, Mask of the Betrayer *Spoiler: Spoiler warnings, For a decade and a half old game*
Show

 It is revealed that Myrkul is clinging to (un?)life on the Astral Plane because of the Spirit Eater Curse causing a fear, which in turn sustains him because he created it.  Is this just something the writers pulled out of their rears, or could a god feasibly survive in such a manner?
 
3.) What would happen if someone (or something) was in the middle of traveling through a portal/rift/some-other-type-of-hole-in-the-realities when it was suddenly closed?

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## Metastachydium

> Mechanatrixs (Mechanatixi?)


Mechanatrices?




> is there a chaos-aligned Planetouched race?


Chaonds (MM2) and cansins (Dragon no. 297).

----------


## Kuulvheysoon

> Can't believe I forgot to check Manual of the Planes.  Sorry about the long response time, and thanks to those who answered.
> 
> While I'm here, I figure I'll ask a few questions and pick some brains.
> 
> 1.) While I know about Aasimar, Tieflings, Mechanatrixs (Mechanatixi?); is there a chaos-aligned Planetouched race?  If not, why not?


 The Zenythri (MM2) are also law-aligned planetouched, and presented as the natural counterpart to the chaond.

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## Thurbane

Zenythri are quite popular for the "Lesser Planetouched" option dues to their stat mods.

Now that I think about it, it's a little odd that there are two Lawful based Planetouched.

Is this a full list of official Planetouched? I'm not sure I would count Half-fiends etc. including specific varieties like Durzagon or Draegloth. I believe Genasi are technically Planetouched, according to the RoF and MoF listings.

Aasimar (G): descended form Humans and CelestialsChaond (C): descended from Humans (?) and SlaadiFey'ri (CE): descended from Elves and DemonsGenasi, Air: descended from Humans and natives of Elemental Plane of AirGenasi, Earth: descended from Humans and natives of Elemental Plane of EarthGenasi, Fire: descended from Humans and natives of Elemental Plane of FireGenasi, Water: descended from Humans and natives of Elemental Plane of WaterMaeluth (LE): descended from Dwarves and DevilsMechanatrix (L): descended from Humans (?) and natives of MechanusShyft (N): descended from Humans (?) and natives of the Ethereal planeTanarukk (CE): descended from Orcs and Demons.Tiefling (E): descended form Humans and FiendsWispling (E): descended from Halflings and DemonsZenyhtri (L): descended from Humans (?) and natives of Mechanus (?)
Honourable Mentions:

Baphitaur (CE): descended from Minotaurs and Tieflings

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## Caelestion

The elemental kin are typically spelt _genasi_.

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## Tzardok

Demiplanes canonically only exist on the Astral and the Etheral. Could being able to support demiplanes be a trait of transistory planes in general, meaning the Shadow and the Ordial could have them too? Any idea what those would be or look like?

Also, if you are feeling up for inventing things whole-cloth, could you flesh out the "Deep Mirror", the part of the Plane of Mirrors that is inhabitated by the Nerra instead of consisting of little corridors?

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## afroakuma

> In Afrocanon, what is the connection between the Black Abyss demiplane (Dragon 353) and the Slaadi?


I'm going to ask you to bring this question back in about a week so I can touch on it with a hopefully better brain.




> 2.) In Neverwinter Nights 2, Mask of the Betrayer *Spoiler: Spoiler warnings, For a decade and a half old game*
> Show
> 
>  It is revealed that Myrkul is clinging to (un?)life on the Astral Plane because of the Spirit Eater Curse causing a fear, which in turn sustains him because he created it.  Is this just something the writers pulled out of their rears, or could a god feasibly survive in such a manner?


A dead god isn't irretrievably dead; receiving sufficient worship or a powerful jolt to kickstart them back into existence both work, at least for a time. In the case of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, each of the Dead Three set plans in motion to anchor their essences to something in order to cheat death. Myrkul's plan was probably the weakest of the three (though there's plenty of room for argument) but it would essentially work to keep some mote of the god "active" despite them being functionally dead.




> 3.) What would happen if someone (or something) was in the middle of traveling through a portal/rift/some-other-type-of-hole-in-the-realities when it was suddenly closed?


Depends on the portal or rift in question. Some might collapse in a way that shunts a traveller to one side or the other; some might eject travellers out into a different place entirely; some may allow the travel to complete, but in a warped or harmful way; annnnd of course the one you were almost certainly gunning for, some might just slice the traveller in two.




> Demiplanes canonically only exist on the Astral and the Etheral. Could being able to support demiplanes be a trait of transistory planes in general, meaning the Shadow and the Ordial could have them too? Any idea what those would be or look like?


Demiplanes can form on the Astral and Ethereal because of the specific nature of each of those planes. The Ordial Plane could never support demiplanes because it is the Plane of Proof - what *is*, *is*, and what is not *cannot* be. The Ordial moreso than any other plane is (conjecturally) pretty darn intractable. Conversely, the Plane of Shadow is essentially the plane of what _else_ is - it's not meant to be its own thing, but to reflect in a certain way a different thing that exists. It's closer to the Plane of Mirrors than to the other Transitive Planes. It's plausible that powerful magic could shape a "demiplane" from Shadow, but the result would be problematic and deeply unstable - imagine _shadow conjuration_ producing _genesis_ and having even the boundaries of your created plane being only quasi-real. Most likely, shadowcasting would be involved.




> Also, if you are feeling up for inventing things whole-cloth, could you flesh out the "Deep Mirror", the part of the Plane of Mirrors that is inhabitated by the Nerra instead of consisting of little corridors?


See my response to Dalmosh above. I'm not in an excellent headspace right now unfortunately.

----------


## Tzardok

Thank you for the answer.  :Small Smile: 

It now itches me to make a new path of shadow magic with Umbral Genesis as the capstone. Hmm... anybody suggestions for what the level 7 and level 8 mystery could do?

Also, rules-wise Genesis is exclusively on the lists for wizards, sorcerers, clerics and psions. Any other users of mystical powers known to have created demiplanes? Wu jen or truenamers for example?

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## Thurbane

> Also, rules-wise Genesis is exclusively on the lists for wizards, sorcerers, clerics and psions. Any other users of mystical powers known to have created demiplanes? Wu jen or truenamers for example?


Not sure if any other classes have their own equivalent, but a dip into Wyrm Wizard should be able to get access to Genesis for other casters.

----------


## Tzardok

Does Diinkarazan have any worshippers at all? Or are his status as a racial god and Ilsensine's curse the only things keeping him from fading away?

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## afroakuma

> Does Diinkarazan have any worshippers at all? Or are his status as a racial god and Ilsensine's curse the only things keeping him from fading away?


He *does*... sort of. There are small breakaway dwarven cults that worship weapons and other forces, and some few of these are actually paying their worship to Diinkarazan through his mantle of heedless vengeance. He's also effectively the god of hating the derro (much in the same way as Urdlen is the god of hating gnomes and Lolth is the goddess of hating drow) and so those who truly steep themselves in a desire to expunge the stunted and twisted offshoot race may inadvertently venerate him. More broadly, the natural hate and vengeful feelings of derro continue to give him strength, in no small part thanks to Ilsensine's curse on him. As is to be expected, the mind flayer god engineered a marvelously vindictive situation to continue to repay Diirinka and his minions for having once stolen into his realm - the power of Diinkarazan survives despite all of the factors working against it, and the Mad God continues to use this power to randomly spawn avatars and other projections that go on wild killing sprees through derro communities.

----------


## Laughing Dog

> A dead god isn't irretrievably dead; receiving sufficient worship or a powerful jolt to kickstart them back into existence both work, at least for a time. In the case of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, each of the Dead Three set plans in motion to anchor their essences to something in order to cheat death. Myrkul's plan was probably the weakest of the three (though there's plenty of room for argument) but it would essentially work to keep some mote of the god "active" despite them being functionally dead.


Ah, thank you.



> Depends on the portal or rift in question. Some might collapse in a way that shunts a traveller to one side or the other; some might eject travellers out into a different place entirely; some may allow the travel to complete, but in a warped or harmful way; annnnd of course the one you were almost certainly gunning for, some might just slice the traveller in two.


 Actually, I kind of just assumed that last one.  I was/am more interested in the others.  Thank you for the reply.

----------


## Dalmosh

Hello, if you're inclined to speculate on the Black Abyss, that would be cool.  The paragraph reads like the author is trying to drop exciting adventure hooks for players, but Ygorl and the Vaati are pretty obscure references to have just chucked in there without providing some context and direction.

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## Tzardok

How shameless. I would've waited until Wednesday before reminding him of our requests.  :Small Wink:

----------


## Dalmosh

Guilty as charged, sir

----------


## Sharqking

Is there ever any mention of an Underdark subrace of merfolk? Or any other primarily underwater humanoid besides like kuo-toa and vampire stingrays?
Do merfolks have an evil diety if a group of them were to be evil? Or would they worship just turn to something like Sekolah?

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## Tzardok

I don't think there are "undermerfolk". Other sapient races in the Underdark's seas should be kopru, aboleth and possibly anguillians.

There aren't any evil racial gods of merfolk. I would assume that evil merfolk would pay worship to one of the local evil sea gods like Umberlee, Zeboim or Yeathan before turning to the racial gods of another evil race, and I would think that of the evil racial gods Panzuriel would be the most attractive, followed maybe by Piscaethces before Blibdoolpoolp, Sekolah or Ixzan are chosen.
Also, there is always the chance of directing your worship to an archfiend. Dagon and Demogorgon are favourites of water dwellers.

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## Dalmosh

Aboleths make Skum to fill that role in their domains.

----------


## Tzardok

If I cast Incarnate Construct on a grisgol, what happens to the soul in the phylactery? Does it die, and the ex-grisgol gains one of its own? Is the soul somehow transformed into a soul for the ex-grisgol? If so, would the ex-grisgol show qualities and personality traits of the lich, maybe even become a reincarnation of it?

----------


## unseenmage

> If I cast Incarnate Construct on a grisgol, what happens to the soul in the phylactery? Does it die, and the ex-grisgol gains one of its own? Is the soul somehow transformed into a soul for the ex-grisgol? If so, would the ex-grisgol show qualities and personality traits of the lich, maybe even become a reincarnation of it?


Same question buy with an animated Thinaun Steel dagger containing a soul. (That is also conveniently humanoid shaped.)

Or worse, a brace of said daggers containing a soul each all wired or welded together into a single appropriately shaped animated object.

----------


## afroakuma

> If I cast Incarnate Construct on a grisgol, what happens to the soul in the phylactery?


Nothing, grisgols are immune to _incarnate construct_. As are stone golems, for that matter. Mark of a badly-written spell is when it doesn't work on the very things it's supposed to target.  :Small Tongue: 

Assuming you can make it work somehow, then we get into undefined territory, because as noted above, _incarnate construct_ was written by a monkey. It doesn't even address what happens to the elemental animating spirit of a normal golem, let alone more complex issues. For that, we'll need to get into some inferential territory, and it starts with that outsize XP cost. We can examine _awaken_ to determine that the XP cost of "upgrading" a soul is 250 XP; _awaken undead_ upgrades multiple negative energy animi for the same cost, but isn't actually providing them with *new* functionality so much as reconnecting functionality that used to be there. _Awaken sand_ also works on something inanimate, costing only 500 XP, but creates a construct - not actual life - with the Earth subtype, suggesting the XP expenditure is needed to convert the caster's positive energy into fuel for an earth elemental animus.

None of these is really cognate to what _incarnate construct_/_awaken construct_ do, because a big part of that effect is the explicit creation of life where there was none. The question, then, is what does the spell require of the animating force? To that end... while it doesn't specify, that technically gives us a window for inference, because the spell doesn't seem to care whether the construct is animated via elemental spirit, trapped soul, divine blessing, psionic will, or just pure clockwork. If it has the construct type, which is pretty all-encompassing, _incarnate construct_ works on it. This suggests that the spell outright replaces the original animating force, whatever it may be, with a new living soul (5000 XP being a pretty reasonable cost to do that wholecloth) created from the caster's own. A trapped elemental spirit would become unbound and released back to its Inner Plane of origin, a psionic force would dissipate, and so on.

Grisgols present an unorthodox case, however, because they use a physical object for their animation which contains a soul that does not in and of itself possess or control the body. Where powerful magics combine without specificity, it's uncertain what might happen, but some of the possibilities:

 The lich's soul coexists with the new soul in the living body and overtakes it, being more powerful and experienced, extinguishing the new soul and giving the lich control over the body. Whether some body part still serves as a container for the soul itself or whether the lich loses their "lichdom" in that particular sense is up in the air.
 The lich's soul coexists with the new soul in the living body but cannot overtake it, becoming a dark presence within the new lifeform that may occasionally find ways of manifesting its hateful feelings. Again, up in the air as to whether destruction of this body would be good for the lich or bad for it; likely *total* destruction of the body would also destroy the lich for good, while mere death of the body would allow the lich's soul to animate it as a temporary undead host.
 The spell transforms everything *else* of the grisgol's body, as it doesn't need to use anything present in the body for animation. The untransformed object containing the soul of the lich may reside within the body like a grotesque tumor, or emerge to appear fused into the living flesh. In the "tumor" case, the lich would, as above, have no control over the body inherently but may find ways to exert a dark influence. If emerged from the body, even odds as to whether the lich is able to control the body for as long as it remains attached, or possesses no control as in the above.
 The transformation would destroy the lich's vessel. The lich is entitled to a saving throw and spell resistance (separate from the grisgol's own) to prevent the spell from succeeding. 

In the *general* case, where the transformation is not reversible *and* preservative (unlike _flesh to stone_, which specifically has _stone to flesh_ as an out and also specifically notes that it does not result in death) and does not leave a discrete object (as _transmute metal to wood_ does, which does not strip magical properties) it would be considered destruction of the host vessel, dispatching the bound soul to its final rest. I feel this is the most boring outcome, but it's also the easiest by far.




> Same question buy with an animated Thinaun Steel dagger containing a soul. (That is also conveniently humanoid shaped.)


Quite a trick given that it doesn't work on something animated via _animate objects_, but this one is actually easier. When a thinaun weapon is destroyed, the soul is released, and soul trapping is an inherent property of the material rather than something conferred via ensorcellment. Thus, when thinaun is transmuted into another material of any kind (see _transmute metal to wood_, again), it becomes incapable of retaining the bound soul, which is released. Even if later turned back into thinaun, it still lost the properties of the metal while it was something else, in the same way that iron turned into wood would not remain magnetic, or gold turned into wood would be insufficient as a material component in spells (at least those requiring gold. Gold-turned-wood is probably valuable for something else in its own right).




> Or worse, a brace of said daggers containing a soul each all wired or welded together into a single appropriately shaped animated object.


Same gag as the above.

----------


## Tzardok

The majority of the Athar direct their worship to the Great Unknown, right? And sustained worship directed at something that isn't a power and isn't secretly sponsored by one can birth an appropriate power. What would happen if the Athar's worship caused the power called the Great Unknown to come into being?

----------


## Thealtruistorc

Who were the first deities and where did they come from? Did mortalkind need to exist for deities to rise to power or was the potential for worship enough to cause some to spring into existence? If folks could point me towards good sources on this info, I would be grateful.

----------


## Tzardok

Canon is, as far as I know, mostly silent on that matter. There are few legends, like the story of the Pact Primeval, but they are just that: legends.

Afro once wrote a story how life and gods on the Prime came to be. It begins here, on page 41 of the Planar Questions Thread 5.

----------


## Bohandas

> The majority of the Athar direct their worship to the Great Unknown, right? And sustained worship directed at something that isn't a power and isn't secretly sponsored by one can birth an appropriate power. What would happen if the Athar's worship caused the power called the Great Unknown to come into being?


Related: Is Great Unknown just the DM?

----------


## Tzardok

> Related: Is Great Unknown just the DM?


The way it is described it resembles either an impersonal source of divine magic from which all divine spellcasters draw power or the typical monotheist deity: omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> Related: Is Great Unknown just the DM?


I feel like the Great Unknown is more on the level of an overdeity, like Ao. Theoretically omnipotent and creator/master of an universe, but still a god like any other, who can disappear or change form (Cask of the Great Unknown), and lend spells to their followers, contrary to the DM, who has no real existence in-game and would most probably be represented by the Luminous Being more than the Great Unknown.

----------


## Eurus

Speaking of deities getting power all sneaky-like from things that aren't intentional worship, is there any way to _counteract_ that? Or even determine for sure if it's happening? It seems rather unfair, when you think about it...  :Small Amused:

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## afroakuma

> The majority of the Athar direct their worship to the Great Unknown, right?


Yyyes, but not in the same way that the faithful of a deity do. It's more akin to venerating a principle than a god.




> What would happen if the Athar's worship caused the power called the Great Unknown to come into being?


Essentially it cannot - the Athar's belief is one that cannot meaningfully coalesce as a new distinctive power, because part of that belief is that what they venerate has no need for belief.

But then again, who's to say the Great Unknown does not in fact already exist?  :Small Wink: 




> Who were the first deities and where did they come from?


We don't officially know, but my own conjecture is that the first deities were proto-entities of life and magic that became the draconic deity Io and the ancient fey progenitor Rhiannon.




> Did mortalkind need to exist for deities to rise to power


"Rise to power" is a bit vague here. If you mean to exist at all, then no - the emergence of the most primordial deities came about as a result of cosmic principles clashing at the dawn of the multiverse. There weren't *many* but that was enough. If you mean "to become as numerous/powerful/influential as they are currently," though, then yes absolutely mortals were needed.




> Related: Is Great Unknown just the DM?


Apart from the PCs, isn't everything?  :Small Confused:

----------


## Tzardok

I've got a question about Vecna's stay in Ravenloft. I've been rereading the 3.5 conversion of Ravenloft and it is very vague about Vecna; it doesn't even mention him or his domain by name. The Ravenloft wiki claims that Vecna became a Darklord in 750. It also mentions a passage from the 3.5 book that allegedly refers to his escape and is in the 750-758 (today) part of the setting's history. That sounds... like a really short imprisonment for Vecna. Do we have any clear dates on when Vecna was misted and when he escaped?

----------


## afroakuma

> I've got a question about Vecna's stay in Ravenloft. I've been rereading the 3.5 conversion of Ravenloft


Probably your first mistake right there  :Small Tongue: 




> and it is very vague about Vecna; it doesn't even mention him or his domain by name.


It's required to be; they didn't get the license to D&D characters from other settings. You'll also note them skating around naming Lord Soth.




> The Ravenloft wiki claims that Vecna became a Darklord in 750. It also mentions a passage from the 3.5 book that allegedly refers to his escape and is in the 750-758 (today) part of the setting's history. That sounds... like a really short imprisonment for Vecna. Do we have any clear dates on when Vecna was misted and when he escaped?


Vecna became a Darklord and was brought to the Ravenloft year 750, roughly 581 Common Year in Oeridian reckoning; he spent the real-time equivalent of about 10-11 years in Ravenloft, though given the properties of the Demiplane, it's entirely possible that it bent time purely to troll him. It's equally possible that it didn't even need to do that - Vecna's torment would be absolute purely by virtue of his imprisonment in the first place, his enormous power confined, his enormous ambitions blunted. Remember that for him, even a minute in Ravenloft would be excruciating - a potent mixture of boredom, frustration, and claustrophobia as his divine mind found itself suddenly horribly limited in its access and attentions. For comparison, imagine I take you away from the Internet and lock you in a white room with white lights wearing white clothing, with sound-deadening white padding on the walls that makes everything muted and close to silent, with water to drink and flavorless rice loaf to eat. Your entertainment is now a rock. You can see experiments like this on YouTube - sensory deprivation is incredibly deleterious. Vecna's enormous mind would have found it beyond stultifying, to say nothing of the base humiliation of being a prisoner on the same level as Kas.

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## Tzardok

Ah. Understood.

This leads me to another headscratcher: Vecna is the only known divine darklord, right? I'm pretty sure that gods can't enter the Demiplane of Dread and the dark powers propably couldn't snatch, I don't know, Cyric. It's just... how could the Mists even take a demigod? Bog-standard outsiders cause pressure and shifts in Ravenloft's planar fabric; gods, even a demigod, should have more weight than that.
Just... what's up with that? Would it maybe be better to take Vecna at he point of his imprisonment to be a hero-god?

----------


## afroakuma

> Ah. Understood.
> 
> This leads me to another headscratcher: Vecna is the only known divine darklord, right? I'm pretty sure that gods can't enter the Demiplane of Dread and the dark powers propably couldn't snatch, I don't know, Cyric. It's just... how could the Mists even take a demigod?


Much like how Vecna escaped to Sigil, it was a loophole - Vecna had created a powerful avatar, a significant commitment of his divine powers explicitly intended to exist in mortal form, with the intent of using it as part of a ritual to launch himself to greater godhood. This hubris and negligence created something the Dark Powers could grab onto, and because Vecna had anchored his existence to this avatar, when they used it as the hook to pull him in, the rest of him went along for the ride.

----------


## Tiktakkat

Or . . .

Perhaps it was Vecna's plan all along.

If you look at his "career", it is a continuing sequence of dead ends that he gets out of with grandiose plans that are "foiled" by various forces - heroes or villains, at the end of which Vecna is always more powerful.

Vecna becomes a lich, a rather dead end in terms of power.
He "escapes" by being "killed" by Kas.

Vecna is disembodied spirit, floating around, periodically possessing people stupid enough to use both his Hand and Eye.
He "escapes" by plotting to take over all of Oerth, "conveniently" leaving clues so that adventurers can hook up with Iuz and "stop" his dastardly plot.

Vecna accumulates enough power to come to the attention of the Dark Powers that imprison him in Ravenloft.
He "escapes" by leaving more clues so Iuz will come after him, allowing him to absorb Iuz and "flee" to Sigil.

Vecna is "trapped" in Sigil, locked in combat with the Lady of Pain, a fight he cannot win.
He is "defeated" by adventurers he had left clues for, "evicting" him from Sigil "just in time", and leaving him a . . . well, whatever they classify him as in the current edition - Lesser Power typically, but it has varied so much it is hard to keep it straight. In any case, "well above lich".

Every time Vecna is "defeated", he manages to rise in power level.
"Funny" how that works out.
By the by, what were Vecna's portfolio's again?




> Destructive and Evil Secrets, Magic, Hidden Knowledge, Intrigue


Oh, right.
Pretty much the precise combination to gain power while always looking like you have been defeated.
"Hmm . . ."

----------


## Thealtruistorc

What does having Destiny in a gods portfolio entail? What aspects of existence does that put the god in charge of? How does it shape events? Are there any examples I could look into?

I know that Araushnee was the goddess of Elven Destiny, but I don't quite know how her fall affected the Destiny of Elvenkind.

----------


## afroakuma

> Or . . .
> 
> Perhaps it was Vecna's plan all along.


It wasn't. We have his internal monologue from his defeat in Sigil. He's still livid about that and considers it a massive humiliation.




> What does having Destiny in a gods portfolio entail? What aspects of existence does that put the god in charge of? How does it shape events? Are there any examples I could look into?


Destiny is a pretty rare portfolio - it's about purpose, ambition, decision, the seeking and finding of personal attainment. The desire for and finding of direction in life - a need to do more. Destiny is distinct from fate, a more common portfolio (though still uncommon) which has to do with final and irrevocable outcomes, often of a negative bent but not always. "Fate" is inescapable, cosmic, and unchanged by mortal agency. "Destiny" is the *product* of mortal agency charting a course for the rest of their life. Gods of destiny may be patrons of great movers and shakers - heroes and villains both, potentially; they may see and hint at the futures that may be, opening doors and lighting the roads that a mortal can walk. They are often impassive guides who provide inspiration or choices and then sit back to see what will come of it.




> I know that Araushnee was the goddess of Elven Destiny, but I don't quite know how her fall affected the Destiny of Elvenkind.


Araushnee's fall disconnected her from the elven race, to the detriment of all elves born without her original influence, for without her touch the elves lack meaningful direction. They are reactive, not active, and their struggle to feel purpose and seek direction in life rather than falling into something for reactive reasons not only stunts their progress as a society and as individuals (think of how old elves are when they often begin their adventuring careers, compared to human peers) but also limits their future potential and reduces their birth rate. Elves quite simply lack the feeling that they need to find a path forward in life; they believe it will come to them or it won't, and in the meantime they will while away the years. In a philosophical sense, elves lack a meaningful will to live life - not to say they have a death wish, but rather that they struggle to want to make things be a certain way, carve a path for themselves. Individual elves still have some sense of this and can be driven by a deep enough emotional need, but it's as though someone took a brick out of Maslow's pyramid and the race collectively shrugged about it.

To put it simply, elves as a race have no direction that isn't reactive or complacent. That's what they lost to Lolth.

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## Thealtruistorc

> Destiny is a pretty rare portfolio - it's about purpose, ambition, decision, the seeking and finding of personal attainment. The desire for and finding of direction in life - a need to do more. Destiny is distinct from fate, a more common portfolio (though still uncommon) which has to do with final and irrevocable outcomes, often of a negative bent but not always. "Fate" is inescapable, cosmic, and unchanged by mortal agency. "Destiny" is the *product* of mortal agency charting a course for the rest of their life. Gods of destiny may be patrons of great movers and shakers - heroes and villains both, potentially; they may see and hint at the futures that may be, opening doors and lighting the roads that a mortal can walk. They are often impassive guides who provide inspiration or choices and then sit back to see what will come of it.


Interesting. Thank you for the answer. Could you elaborate more on what a God of Fate might do with their portfolio?

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## Tiktakkat

> It wasn't. We have his internal monologue from his defeat in Sigil. He's still livid about that and considers it a massive humiliation.


Yes, the internal monologue of the power of secrets because like his plans, his motives and feelings are always so straightforward and direct.

That is rather the whole point of my alternative take - Vecna is all about secrets. Nothing he says or does should ever be taken at face value. He always has some deeper plan to come out ahead, particularly after being "defeated".

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## enderlord99

> Yes, the internal monologue of the power of secrets because like his plans, his motives and feelings are always so straightforward and direct.
> 
> That is rather the whole point of my alternative take - Vecna is all about secrets. Nothing he says or does should ever be taken at face value. He always has some deeper plan to come out ahead, particularly after being "defeated".


He keeps secrets, but he doesn't keep them _from himself_.

That's the sort of thing _Cyrik_ does.

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## afroakuma

> Vecna


Yeah no. We're not doing this. Play this song somewhere else.

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## redking

> I've got a question about Vecna's stay in Ravenloft. I've been rereading the 3.5 conversion of Ravenloft and it is very vague about Vecna; it doesn't even mention him or his domain by name. The Ravenloft wiki claims that Vecna became a Darklord in 750. It also mentions a passage from the 3.5 book that allegedly refers to his escape and is in the 750-758 (today) part of the setting's history. That sounds... like a really short imprisonment for Vecna. Do we have any clear dates on when Vecna was misted and when he escaped?


The 3.5 iteration of Ravenloft could not mention the IP of other settings under their license to publish. As for time, for all we know Vecna may have been trapped for hundreds of years of _apparent time_ in Ravenloft, because time can work differently there. Don't sweat the details of Vecna's excursion into Ravenloft. Its not even clear to me that Vecna's true, divine form was trapped rather than an avatar.

----------


## Thurbane

Here's an obscure one: The Black Loper (currently being rated in the LA thread).

Basically, it's a short story, with a 3.0 monster stat block attached as an afterthought.

Any ideas on developing some kind of backstory or ecology for this hot mess?




> Black lopers do not reproduce. They come from some other plane, but which plane and their method of entering the plane is unknown.


Is there a chance they could have originated from the Far Realm?

----------


## Thurbane

Oh, and another question.

Are the Vaati statted out in the OA expansion the same Vaati (Wind Dukes) associated with Greyhawk/The Rod of Seven Parts?

If no, were they statted out anywhere else in 3.0/3.5?

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## afroakuma

> Here's an obscure one: The Black Loper (currently being rated in the LA thread).
> 
> Basically, it's a short story, with a 3.0 monster stat block attached as an afterthought.
> 
> Any ideas on developing some kind of backstory or ecology for this hot mess?
> 
> Is there a chance they could have originated from the Far Realm?


Interesting inquiry. Good chance to walk through the process:

This was obviously a pretty slapdash monster, the acid not even having a damage figure associated or being listed in special attacks. Still, we have some useful data to glean. It's an outsider, with trivial spell resistance, DR 5/magic, scent... and this unusual property: "cannot be flanked." The short story gives us little context for why this might be the case. It certainly doesn't possess all-around vision (it's noted as being "nearly blind"). As a tentacley squishy thingamabob, it might be tapping into elements of the Amorphous special quality, but it doesn't possess the critical hit defense this would normally afford. The closest suggestion it gives us is that lopers have no "front" or face, so this suggests that it cannot be flanked because it's difficult to meaningfully force it to split its perceptions or reduce its attention to one part of its body, but still has a kind of "core" or other vital section which can be threatened by critical hits.

Then we get to the transfer property. Squamous and tentacley and alien in behavior and abilities certainly does sound like the Far Realm, but there are elements of this that don't fit - most especially the linkage with the full moon. That's a mystically resonant element that the Far Realm wouldn't touch on in any way - it's just not germane to entities of the Far Realm to have any properties that would tie into that kind of thing. So that's disqualified.

If anything, the transfer property makes me think of a monster from Pandemonium, the murska - which molts its shell when it has devoured a victim, transforming into them, gradually "regrowing" underneath as it loses access to the intellect and personality of the creature it ate. It's not quite the same effect as the black loper's transfer, though... and of course, Pandemonium is all caverns. No moons. Plus, the black loper is neutral evil by nature. Pandemonium is on the wrong side of the Abyss for that.

...so why don't we look right on the other side? Carceri is endless spheres floating in the sky, a "moon" is not outside the realm of possibility. It's also a plane of imprisonment and suffering, which aligns rather nicely with the whole "it ate me and then I became it" effect in terms of being torturous and vile. Lastly, Carceri does play home to unusual and eerie creatures such as the odopi, and its hostile environments align well with the acid powers of the black loper. Its natural ability to fly would allow it to traverse the spheres of this plane with ease, and the notion of a predator that takes on the mind of its prey and literally believes itself to be its own victim plays well with the betrayal themes of Carceri - by eating one member of a travelling party, the loper effectively causes its victim to "betray" its allies by exploiting its knowledge of their habits and whereabouts.




> Oh, and another question.
> 
> Are the Vaati statted out in the OA expansion the same Vaati (Wind Dukes) associated with Greyhawk/The Rod of Seven Parts?


Correct.

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## Tzardok

Bunch of questions regarding Domains and Darklords, if you feel up for it.

Any idea what the illithid god-brain did to become a darklord? Does this story I heard about a human psion posesseing the brain and betraying his people hold water?

What is the deal with the Nightmare Lands? What can you tell me about the Nightmare Court, where it comes from and how it came to be the Nightmare Lands' collective darklord? Is known when the Nightmare Lands formed?

Is it true that the Sea of Sorrows didn't have a darklord before the Great Conjunction? How is that possible and how could it have been formed?

How did Jack Karn, Baron Lyron Ebonsong and Althea become darklords of their respective domains (respectively Ferelle, Liffe and the island of Demise)? Is known when the Isle of Ravens came into the Mists?

Edit: Do you think this Drowning Deep domain is a worthy inclusion? Does it and Nebligtod combining into the Nocturnal Sea make sense?

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## aj77

Is there any Afrocanon on who or what the Dark Powers actually are?

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## afroakuma

> Bunch of questions regarding Domains and Darklords, if you feel up for it.


Sure why not.




> Any idea what the illithid god-brain did to become a darklord? Does this story I heard about a human psion posesseing the brain and betraying his people hold water?


We still have no concrete answer, but my best two conjectures:

 The god-brain was the elder brain who concocted and disseminated the lie about illithids becoming one with elder brains in death.
 The god-brain is not an illithid elder brain at all, but rather as you mentioned the product of a humanoid psion betraying his people to mind flayers in exchange for power. This one came from a fan-written netbook but is not a bad idea.

I favor the first one because it constitutes a hypocritical crime against mind flayers themselves, which is a pretty big lunge for them. The God-Brain desired to be above all rivals and to gather information and knowledge to itself more quickly, wanting all knowledge within itself. To attain these desires it created and distributed a falsehood, causing the loss of knowledge of how to create new elder brains (thus endangering the illithid species) and a mass psychic suicide as many illithids logically reasoned that with all the intelligence already possessed by the God-Brain, to merge with it would be to instantly acquire all of its knowledge, so why bother remaining an ignorant little drone? The God-Brain's own followers, effectively its instruments of communication and interaction with the outside world, extinguished themselves in service to the Great Lie. Alone in the darkness, it sank into the Mists and got exactly what it wanted - a realm where it alone is supreme and where it can know absolutely everything - because it is limited, bounded, all that is to be known already long since discovered. The God-Brain rules a realm of nothing, psychic storms lashing out with its frustrations at being confined and unable to meaningfully grow in knowledge, with nothing do to but command and be opposed by its own agents.




> What is the deal with the Nightmare Lands?


They're an Island of Terror, formerly part of the Core, where dreamlike entities exist and can terrorize "wanderers," those who are awake within the Lands. Uniquely for part of the Demiplane of Dread, they have a greater connection to the Region of Dreams, much in the same way that parts of the demiplane have a stronger connection to the Plane of Shadow. The mechanics of dreamscapes are not natively compatible with the structure of the Demiplane of Dread, which results in the domain demonstrating substantial instability.




> What can you tell me about the Nightmare Court, where it comes from and how it came to be the Nightmare Lands' collective darklord?


We know very little about the nature of the Court. One proposition, which I believe to be essentially true, is that all of the members of the Court are just fragments of a single darklord, the Nightmare Man. Each of them may have originally been a unique entity, or they may all have been embodied in one original source entity who splintered as part of its torment.

The Court comprises six known members, plus a seventh not known to Dr. Illhousen but directly connected to them.

 The Nightmare Man, a faceless spectre who oversees the Nightmare Court and the Nightmare Lands but does not directly modify dreamscapes;
 The Ghostly Dancer, a mute ballerina associated with grief;
 "Morpheus," a red-skinned man associated with confusion and instability;
 "Hypnos," a suit-wearing gentleman in a glass coffin associated with frustration and impotence;
 Mullonga, a witch associated with fear;
 The Rainbow Serpent, a winged snake associated with betrayal;
 The Redheaded Child, who is unknown to Dr. Illhousen but has manifested on Gothic Earth and is associated with loss of innocence.

Each possess a vast array of powers within the Nightmare Lands, are served by malefic dream entities, and are anchored to a mystical "Web of Dreams" that lets them feel dreamers and feed on their negative emotions, with each connected via a specific mystical relic that if destroyed would sever their link to the web.

*Spoiler: My guess*
Show

My guess is that the Nightmare Man was once a would-be artist who struggled to capture emotion in his works because he had never experienced strong and passionate feelings, ever since an incident as a child left him numb to the world and desperate to recapture the spark he lost. He found himself incapable of experiencing them through contact with others and developed a subdued but malicious envy for those who could experience so very easily what he struggled to feel, let alone to depict. To attain his desires, he made a deal with a powerful witch, whose price was that he would "experience fear like no other before," which struck him as a price he would be comfortable paying. She gave him the means to absorb the souls of others, and he betrayed her by testing it on her first. After taking the souls of a dancer who knew only grief, a fastidious and apparently successful man immersed in frustration, and a chaotic man who despised order and structure but could only find confusion when it was stripped away, the would-be darklord found himself alone on a misty road with a red-haired child, the picture of innocence and bright potential. This would be his freedom, he decided, and he stole the child's soul with the power the witch had granted him... only to discover that the Mists had delivered him to the moment that started his own torment. The Nightmare Man's hollowness and lack of emotion was the result of him stealing from himself as a child, and all he could capture from the moment was the feel of lost innocence. Unable to recognize his own self as either child or man and knowing only that he had sown the seeds of his own destruction, he fled into the Mists and emerged into a realm made just for him, a realm in which each of his stolen souls - including the witch's familiar, who represented his betrayal of both himself and her - manifested as co-regents, each with their own hungers. The Nightmare Man has been reduced to nothing more than a malevolent will that animates the hundreds of spiders who weave his cloak and let him imagine himself to be something other than a hollow void.

And he experiences fear like no other before - only as an observer, incapable of harnessing it himself except to give to others, never able to capture it except as a mirror of another's emotions, and unable to channel it into his art because his paint turns to blood. He is the master puppeteer behind the architects of a thousand thousand nightmares and none of them will ever belong to him.





> Is known when the Nightmare Lands formed?


No.




> Is it true that the Sea of Sorrows didn't have a darklord before the Great Conjunction? How is that possible and how could it have been formed?


The Sea was not necessarily a domain as a whole before the darklord appeared - it would have existed as the sea of many other domains, and any experience of sailing through it to reach another would have been due to the Mists. The domain he plies, after all, does not incorporate coastal waters.




> How did Jack Karn, Baron Lyron Ebonsong and Althea become darklords of their respective domains (respectively Ferelle, Liffe and the island of Demise)?


Just gonna ask me to make up more stuff for their underdeveloped slacker corners, are you?  :Small Tongue:  You know perfectly well that none of these were ever substantially detailed in canon.




> Is known when the Isle of Ravens came into the Mists?


No.




> Edit: Do you think this Drowning Deep domain is a worthy inclusion.


Nope.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Tzardok

> I favor the first one because it constitutes a hypocritical crime against mind flayers themselves, which is a pretty big lunge for them. The God-Brain desired to be above all rivals and to gather information and knowledge to itself more quickly, wanting all knowledge within itself. To attain these desires it created and distributed a falsehood, causing the loss of knowledge of how to create new elder brains (thus endangering the illithid species) and a mass psychic suicide as many illithids logically reasoned that with all the intelligence already possessed by the God-Brain, to merge with it would be to instantly acquire all of its knowledge, so why bother remaining an ignorant little drone? The God-Brain's own followers, effectively its instruments of communication and interaction with the outside world, extinguished themselves in service to the Great Lie. Alone in the darkness, it sank into the Mists and got exactly what it wanted - a realm where it alone is supreme and where it can know absolutely everything - because it is limited, bounded, all that is to be known already long since discovered. The God-Brain rules a realm of nothing, psychic storms lashing out with its frustrations at being confined and unable to meaningfully grow in knowledge, with nothing do to but command and be opposed by its own agents.


This. This is awesome. I'm so stealing this.




> We know very little about the nature of the Court. One proposition, which I believe to be essentially true, is that all of the members of the Court are just fragments of a single darklord, the Nightmare Man. Each of them may have originally been a unique entity, or they may all have been embodied in one original source entity who splintered as part of its torment.
> 
> The Court comprises six known members, plus a seventh not known to Dr. Illhousen but directly connected to them.
> 
>  The Nightmare Man, a faceless spectre who oversees the Nightmare Court and the Nightmare Lands but does not directly modify dreamscapes;
>  The Ghostly Dancer, a mute ballerina associated with grief;
>  "Morpheus," a red-skinned man associated with confusion and instability;
>  "Hypnos," a suit-wearing gentleman in a glass coffin associated with frustration and impotence;
>  Mullonga, a witch associated with fear;
> ...


This too. This is a good Nightmare to have.




> The Sea was not necessarily a domain as a whole before the darklord appeared - it would have existed as the sea of many other domains, and any experience of sailing through it to reach another would have been due to the Mists. The domain he plies, after all, does not incorporate coastal waters.


Hmm. Interesting idea. As an alternate, would it break anything if I were to decide that Pieter van Riese was there from the beginning of the Sea? Or is it important that he only appeared during the Upheavel?




> Just gonna ask me to make up more stuff for their underdeveloped slacker corners, are you?  You know perfectly well that none of these were ever substantially detailed in canon.


Ugh. I hate slacker corners. Frigging *mumble grumble*

----------


## afroakuma

> Is there any Afrocanon on who or what the Dark Powers actually are?


There... *is...* and bear in mind that I *don't* think the Dark Powers should be defined, not even by me. I've played around with it a lot, especially in the wake of 5E deciding to implement a firm definition and getting it horribly wrong. I would recommend that nobody read all the way through this, although I already know most of you are going to ignore me and drill all the way down  :Small Sigh: 

*Spoiler: Defining the Dark Powers*
Show

Let's start with what we categorically know the Dark Powers are *not*, which involves looking at the two explanations that have been published, one in the *decanonized* novel _Lord of the Necropolis_, and more recently in the 5E release _Van Richten's Awful Take On Ravenloft_ or whatever it's called.

 The Dark Powers are *not* a group of fiends living on the Negative Energy Plane who created the Demiplane of Dread as a stepping stone to invade the Prime Material Plane and manipulated the life of Azalin in order to supply themselves with a wizard who could become the key to unlocking the gate. Let's face it, there are far too many problems with this theory, not the least of which is that it's awfully darn easy to make a portal between the two planes, considerably easier than... you know... _creating a demiplane and kidnapping who even knows how many of the multiverse's worst evils, many of whom are quite clearly not candidates for awesome wizardry powers, in the hope of successfully farming up a sufficiently strong wizard._

 The Dark Powers are *not* vestiges. They clearly have the capacity to directly touch and influence things within the multiverse proper, to say nothing of the fact that _I'm sorry 5E what the devil do you mean Shami-Amourae is a Dark Power? A third-rate ex-succubus queen is one of the inscrutable architects of Gothic nightmare? Please._

So those are really dumb answers. How anyone arrived at them is anyone's guess.

If we're going to define the Dark Powers, which again *we should not be doing*, we have to look at established facts about them, scant though they may appear:

*Spoiler: What do we know about the Dark Powers?*
Show

 The Dark Powers collect evil beings from across the multiverse.
 In particular, they do not collect the worst villains, the most powerful wizards, the most depraved murderers. They are highly selective. It's not merely about being the worst.
 It's also not all forms of evil - they *never* voluntarily collect fiends.
 They are also specific about *when* they collect their targets - Lord Soth's most dramatically awful act, for example, was over 300 years before he was taken.
 The Dark Powers do not simply collect darklords, or even darklord candidates; often, they draw in those who can challenge and provoke their darklords/candidates (for instance, adventurers).
 The Dark Powers never tempt the innocent; they await the guilty. Those who find damnation under their power do so at their own hands.
 The Dark Powers rarely ever communicate in any fashion. They are highly selective about how such communication transpires.
 The Dark Powers tailor each prison and curse to each darklord. These often include incredible powers or status as an ironic reward intended to dissatisfy and frustrate.
 Every darklord is accorded a torment that they could escape through their own agency. What keeps darklords bound for eternity is their own inability to exhibit remorse.
 The Dark Powers deeply dislike entities of belief existing within the boundaries of the Demiplane of Dread. Those who arrive accidentally may be expelled. Those who arrive voluntarily are pushed to be bound into the fabric of the Land, and cause notable distortion and interference.
 Darklords have a demonstrated proclivity to be personally bound to or otherwise have their fates tied up in specific relics within their domains. This is not an absolute, but it's a very common recurring pattern.
 Darklords are bound to the Land. If a darklord is slain and not replaced, the Land is likely to vanish into the Mists. If another sufficient candidate is within the domain, they may become the new darklord.
 The Dark Powers and their purpose are canonically "witnessed" only once (potentially); the effect of this is that the observer becomes disconnected from reality, believing his whole life has been nothing more than a nightmare and that he himself might not truly exist.
 The Dark Powers' intervention is directly seen only when a darklord is not playing their role; this has been seen when they tortured Soth for withdrawing into memory instead of enduring his torment.

This tells us that it's not merely evil that attracts the attention of the Dark Powers, nor do they tend to choose overt tortures for their prisoners. There is always, in effect, the possibility of release. That it (almost) never happens speaks to the natures of those who are drawn in by the Dark Powers - they are full of conviction regarding a specific thing, and will betray that conviction when provoked to do so, even though they should learn what happens. Their refusal to acknowledge that they are the agents of their own torment is, evidently, critical to what draws the Dark Powers' attention.

*Spoiler: Yeah yeah so what's your theory already*
Show

The Dark Powers are... exactly what it says on the tin. Just as dark matter is the invisible counterpart to matter, so too are the Dark Powers... effectively dark powers. Not *evil* powers - evil gods have always existed. No, they are rather powers in a way opposite to how normal deities form. Gods are entities of belief, of faith, of convictions. The Dark Powers are the opposite.

The Dark Powers are formed from *faithlessness*. Not atheism, not merely not believing in something. No, they are the entities of self-deception, hypocrisy, of strong conviction breaking to a weak and petty reed. If faith is the flame of a candle, pure and warm and bright, the Dark Powers draw on that which emerges when this fire is snuffed abruptly and then relit. Embers. Smoke. Fumes. A shadowy cloud roiling within the Astral, the turbulence of souls that cast aside their most heartfelt beliefs while continuing to hold them important emotionally.

Their chosen targets are those who exhibit this kind of faithlessness to a particular degree, one made worse by the scope and scale of the consequences. It is not enough to be wicked, nor is it helpful if an evil character does good, or a lawful character does something chaotic. The kind of hypocritical conviction needed is evil by nature, and may be perpetrated by those of goodly bent who have a slip (such as Jander Sunstar) or those who have long ago slid into depravity and evil but remain utterly convinced of their purity. Nor is it something that can be found in those who have the legitimate support of their deity in pursuing their flawed convictions. There must be a betrayal, and there must be a refusal to admit it, to the self and to others. Finally, and most crucially, they must have an opportunity to learn from their mistakes, admit their wrongdoing, and recognize the pain they have caused - and it must be something that will tempt them and torment them.

Why? Well, for two reasons - firstly, the Dark Powers are sustained by this exact kind of belief system, the faithlessness of their captives feeding them. More importantly, however, the Dark Powers struggle to exert themselves within a multiverse whose foundations are composed of true belief. The Demiplane of Dread is an experiment in determining whether faithlessness can be converted to honest conviction - not mere self-delusion. The Dark Powers want to discover, through these flawed vessels that feed them so, whether their own natures can be transformed if the poisons of the soul that give rise to that which feeds them are purged. For this reason, their prisons constantly push a cyclical torment on each prisoner, forcing them to confront their flaws and self-deceptions over and over again, testing them to see if they will rise to the challenge or break against it. Of late, the Dark Powers have been happy to use existing prisons to entrap and evaluate their own creations, given shape by the wickedness of a Prime being but fashioned from the essence of faithlessness. If the Dark Powers could have one of their own evolve to admit their wrongdoings, it would be an even greater triumph for them.

This is also why Vecna was such a prize for them that they couldn't help themselves - an actual entity of belief devoid of his own convictions, and of such vast power? Vecna was the ultimate experiment, a being they should have never been able to confine, who reveled in certainty that he knew exactly what had happened to him (he did not) and that he could escape (he obviously did, but it took a lot of help), but even recognizing that he was being baited using the vampire next door, *still* ended up playing their games, to his ultimate detriment. The nature of the Demiplane as being founded on hypocrisy, self-distrust, and broken conviction is part of what enabled Vecna to use it as such an effective catapult to get into Sigil - it is in a very real sense the antithesis of a power.

If Vecna was their greatest test, Strahd is their favorite test subject - he upon whose sins the Demiplane was founded in the first place. Strahd's self-betrayal comes many times over, but most crucially he is fueled by a monstrous certainty that he is in love with and will be loved by Tatyana, and a willingness to wait forever to prove to himself that he is right. Strahd's willingness to cross any and all lines to get what he believes he is entitled to, not to mention his willingness to pass up opportunities to escape or to gain more power or to eliminate a hated foe in order to pursue Tatyana, make him a constant source of pain for himself and others, an undead monument to self-deception, unwilling to acknowledge that he broke his vows by working with a fiend, abandoned his desire for family out of envy, and invented a love that pushed him to transform into something that would never be loved and commit an unspeakable crime in the process for that very same reason. Strahd will never acknowledge that he does not deserve Tatyana's love and cannot take his brother's place; Azalin will always struggle harder and harder to escape and sow the seeds of his own failure; Drakov will never abandon his futile struggles for conquest and admit he's not a general; and so on, and so on.

As to their two main escapees... neither has proven to be a success, so the Dark Powers' grand experiment continues. Vecna escaped by breaching the laws of the multiverse, and while he will always be haunted by his time imprisoned in the Demiplane of Dread - and provided them interesting observations in the process - he did not change or regain his convictions. In fact, yet again his self-sabotage proved his undoing. As for Soth, the death knight was freed because they broke him - he acknowledged his faults and crimes but did not repent, and ultimately this acknowledgement resulted in him abandoning any conviction, rather than rebuilding it. They released him because Soth had nothing more to give.

By what metric will they be satisfied? It's hard to know for certain. Was the Great Conjunction their own doing? Almost certainly not - the results could never have favored them, though they remain darkly pleased that their understanding of both Azalin and Strahd bore fruit, and they have reconsolidated the Demiplane stronger than ever. Vecna's escape challenged their absolute control, but the Dark Powers always viewed him as an ambitious prize to hold onto in any event. What is important to them is that their dark and terrifying realm is slowly beginning to bear fruit - even Soth snapping represents important information for them to collect. The Manusa legend of the Vistani alludes to "shadows of the gods" and certainly this is what the Dark Powers would seem to be.

How many Dark Powers are there? What are they named? What forms do they take? What are their powers and limitations? These questions can still never be answered, and it is quite possible that ultimately the Dark Powers themselves do not fully know, because they are in many ways a kind of shadow, an emergence from the toxic fumes of souls false to themselves clouding the Astral Plane. We conjecture, with good reason, that there is one Dark Power (at least) cast out from the others for desiring to be a god and provocateur and rule over a world in the manner of a deity. That one is known as the Red Death, and the world over which its shadow is cast is known as Gothic Earth. The Red Death is actively malefic, though no less remote and inscrutable, and it is theorized that it was cast out for the crime of actively tempting someone into faithlessness in pursuit of greater power for itself - in effect surrendering to a sense of inevitability with regards to its inherent nature, and threatening to drag its peers down along with it.

Now, I'm sure that was disappointing, because any definition of the Dark Powers kind of has to be, inevitably. Which is why I told you not to read this.  :Small Tongue: 







> Hmm. Interesting idea. As an alternate, would it break anything if I were to decide that Pieter van Riese was there from the beginning of the Sea? Or is it important that he only appeared during the Upheavel?


He's not stupendously relevant, so I mean, you do you.




> Ugh. I hate slacker corners. Frigging *mumble grumble*


I mean feel free to admit you just want me to make stuff up  :Small Tongue: 

Or you could go look at fan netbooks and resources and use those materials. I've seen some and I feel they missed the mark here and there, so I don't subscribe to their ideas.

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## Tzardok

> Defining the Dark Powers


Propably the best fitting definition I saw. Something's still missing though... hmm...




> Or you could go look at fan netbooks and resources and use those materials. I've seen some and I feel they missed the mark here and there, so I don't subscribe to their ideas.


Some of those aren't bad.




> I mean feel free to admit you just want me to make stuff up


You _are_ the best making-stuff-upper around. :Small Big Grin: 

Incidentally, Dalmosh and I had requests a page ago, regarding making stuff up about the Black Abyss and the Plane of Mirrors.

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## Bohandas

@afro re. the Dark Powers post

That sounds similar to your take on Carceri. Or rather, your take on Carceri sounds similar to this.

Do you think the two planes are in any way connected?

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## Fable Wright

> Now, I'm sure that was disappointing, because any definition of the Dark Powers kind of has to be, inevitably. Which is why I told you not to read this.


For what it's worth, I find it a good explanation. It explains the _why_ and the _logic_ without cutting down on their individual mystery or the scope of their powers, and contextualizes them in the greater multiverse in a way that lets me use them as greater-scope allies or enemies.

I find it satisfying.  :Small Smile: 




> @afro re. the Dark Powers post
> 
> That sounds similar to your take on Carceri. Or rather, your take on Carceri sounds similar to this.
> 
> Do you think the two planes are in any way connected?


Carceri is victim and crab bucket mentality writ large, formed into a prison; whereas the Demiplane of Dread is a prison of your own convictions. While superficially similar, the fundamental difference is that in Carceri, everyone else will drag you back every inch of progress you make out of it, while Ravenloft will torment you by offering a rope out labeled "you're wrong" and watching you squirm by not accepting it. 

I really don't think they're connected.

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## afroakuma

> Propably the best fitting definition I saw. Something's still missing though... hmm...


I mean I *did* warn you not to read it. I take no blame, you knew what you were getting into.  :Small Tongue: 




> Some of those aren't bad.


I mean what they did to Althea was just plain rude. Obvious, yes, but also deeply unfair. 




> You _are_ the best making-stuff-upper around.


Yeah yeah.  :Small Tongue: 




> Incidentally, Dalmosh and I had requests a page ago, regarding making stuff up about the Black Abyss and the Plane of Mirrors.


Ugh, yeah, that's gonna be a lot. Gonna keep a pin in those for the moment.




> @afro re. the Dark Powers post
> 
> That sounds similar to your take on Carceri. Or rather, your take on Carceri sounds similar to this.
> 
> Do you think the two planes are in any way connected?


Nope. There are some thin similarities, but it's important to understand that in the Demiplane of Dread, there's no clarity of "escape" as a purpose, it's more about "ending torment" - the darklords do not have a ton of idea that they're trapped in a particular way for the most part, or otherwise know that to do thing A will result in benefit B. It's a private little morality play for each of them that they all keep failing because of very personal reasons, and their domains only ever reflect back what they deserve. Carceri is very much "a prison to escape" - it's right there in the name - and everyone there is a prisoner of the same sort. It's not personal, it's festering the same set of toxic emotions and attitudes within all of them. Paranoia. Spite. Selfishness. Carceri is a hell in which everyone jails one another. In the Demiplane of Dread, the darklords are their own victims. Most pointedly, Carceri is absolutely the appropriate cosmic destination for those who hold true to convictions (where those convictions involve being a heinous jerk). The Demiplane of Dread hungers for those who violate their own convictions.

Ultimately, the fundamental contrast comes down to that the Demiplane of Dread wants to see if you can change, even though it deliberately provokes and screws with you to test you. Carceri doesn't want you to change except to get even worse. Once you're in, it never wants to let you go.

Anyway, on to the making stuff up bit.




> How did Jack Karn, Baron Lyron Ebonsong and Althea become darklords of their respective domains (respectively Ferelle, Liffe and the island of Demise)?


Bearing in mind that I've basically had to do this wholecloth:

*Spoiler: Jack Karn*
Show

The jackalwere Karn was infamous even among his own kind for his absolute hatred of humans. He would pass up other prey for the chance to tear apart a human, and considered all humans to be beasts no better than sheep. So vicious was his contempt that he was well-known for hounding individual humans, wounding them but leaving them alive simply to enjoy their agony. His infamy spread and he became a figure of fear - the Night Hound, a legendary brigand as much as a legendary beast, and as his tale spread, it reached others of his kind. A female travelled to the lands Karn favored, making her lair in a wooded copse, and sought him out with intent to mate with the fearsome terror Karn. The two joined, and she produced a child by him.

Karn began to notice that the human population in the region was beginning to decline, far moreso than his own predations would cause. Assuming human form despite his disgust, he travellled among their villages to discern if there was something out of the ordinary - a war between the sheep, or a plague felling the helpless beasts, anything he could gloat over - but no, the only thing they attributed it to was monsters in the night. Worse, they were no longer speaking of the legendary Night Hound, but instead talking as though he was a mere predatory animal rather than the glorious apex predator and icon of terror he had built himself up to be.

Karn returned to the wooded lair to share his discoveries with his mate, who revealed that she had planned a marvelous surprise for him. Knowing how much he despised humans, and wanting to make a mark on the land for their son, she had gathered the pack of jackalweres from her own homeland and brought them together here. In two nights, she told him, they would move out en masse, engaging in a glorious bloodbath of carnage, purging the humans from their land, reducing them to a bare handful to torture for sport.

In theory, Karn should have been thrilled - after all, every fiber of him *hated* humans, and to massacre them all alongside his kindred, creating a hunting ground over which he would reign supreme? That should have been his dream... but all Karn could think of was how much he would miss hounding a victim through the night, the screams of his "sheep" as they fell beneath his fangs, the dark satisfaction of filling his belly with human flesh and lording his supremacy over them. The cull was his, Karn reasoned, and these interlopers were depriving him of his sport. In his silent fury, Karn devised a solution to ensure that the human population would never decline to the point that he might need to exist on lesser prey, deprived of the sadistic pleasures he had come to enjoy from tormenting his "flock." Taking the form of a friendly tinker, Karn went to the nearest village and warned the humans there of a pack of jackalweres assembling in a wooded copse, predators who would surely destroy them. A mob was raised, and with torches and pitchforks they went forth to the copse that had been Karn's lair, setting it ablaze. The jackalwere stood before the blaze, remembering only as the fires reached their height that his mate and child were within. He could see them in the depths - trapped under a burning branch. It would have been well within his power to save them, but in that moment, surrounded by his hated prey, all that Karn could think of was how he would never go hungry again, never have to share with another. He turned away, and the rolling smoke concealed the Mists that wrapped around him.

Now the darklord of his own domain, "Jack" Karn has exactly what he always wanted - the human population of Farelle is thriving, their numbers growing with every season. The darklord has more humans than he knows what to do with, but none of them see him as anything but a friendly tinker and travelling merchant. The jackalweres of the land do not recognize him either, although they know and revere the "Night Hound" and await his return. The people of Farelle are a simple folk - so simple that Jack Karn finds himself constantly roaming his domain to put the skills he has developed as a tinker to service to keep the humans from failing due to their ineptitude. He repairs plows and wagon wheels, mends crossbows, and is constantly conveying needed goods between the two main towns of the island and outlying farms. The wolf has become the shepherd, hating that he has to protect and support the humans lest their own incompetence reduce their numbers.

For Karn has discovered something horrific about this new land - his fears about there being insufficient humans are reflected by it with a curse on him. Should the population fall below a certain level, his curse slowly begins transforming him into a human - forever. As well, the same fears he harnessed to slaughter his own kind remain buried within the populace of the isle. Whenever Karn succumbs to his hunger and takes his true form as a jackal, he appears as a monstrous shadowy hound with glowing eyes - and someone *always* spots him and sends up a cry of alarm. For 48 hours, Karn remains bound to his jackal form while mobs of humans hunt for him. As for his ability to command his domain, Jack Karn is no lord and holds no status, except insofar as he can command the dogs and jackals of Farelle telepathically. His presence is also inherently soothing to humans around him while in human form, an intensification of the soporific gaze of the jackalwere. Karn has to carefully manage the beasts whose appetites drive them to rip apart humans to feast on, lest their depredations threaten to trigger his curse.

The terrible irony that Karn refuses to acknowledge is that the humans would in fact be perfectly capable of building and growth of numbers without his constant intervention - indeed, the "blessing" that ensures humans will always be calm in his presence, allowing him to meddle in their affairs without suspicion, is in fact just self-reinforcement of Karn's belief that humans are no better than sheep and incapable of survival without his agency. The darklord moves among them, lives among them, works most of his life for their benefit, while hating every single thing about them and the role he plays - *and he does not have to.* If Karn were capable of believing the humans to be more than livestock for his hungers, he might realize that he doesn't need to live as something he hates, day in and day out - but his contempt runs so deep that he would rather send his canines to scare off his own kind in order to protect and preserve the prey he so completely and utterly despises, allowing him to reinforce his belief in their inferiority.

In short, the jackal has become a shepherd to a flock that only require a shepherd because he believes they do, living in fear of the fruit of his hatred and hunger. Everything he does is unnecessary and he is totally incapable of even considering that possibility, for to do so would be to admit that humans are more than sheep.


Baron Evensong's story is known in full and pretty dull. He believed himself a just and moral man who would teach others through song, and when others failed to "learn" from him, he decided to up the ante by having his harpsichord magically enchanted to have power over human souls. The enchantment messed up and drew his own life force into it, but shriven of mortality, the Baron decided that what he could not do with magic, he'd do the old-fashioned way. After all, if people wouldn't heed his instructions, they obviously deserved to die, right? Only ever able to see people as objects to compel to his will, the Baron went on a murdering spree and ended up in Ravenloft, where he gets to spend each evening totally alone - for 100 years at a time. Now he recognizes the value of others, as his centuries of solitude madden him - but he remains convinced of his righteousness and believes that he deserves to be able to have company during his torments, because of how good a person he is. In so doing, not only does he deny himself an opportunity for release and commit further atrocity; he also directly imperils himself, for the harpsichord containing his life force is part of the library, and his guests can destroy it and end his existence for good.

As for Althea... I'll have to get back to you on that. I severely dislike the fanon version as it stands but there's very little to work with on her.

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## Delvin Anaris

Vecna seems to figure into a bunch of different things, but I'm unclear on the order in which they happen. Do you have some kind of a summary of Vecna's personal timeline?

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## enderlord99

Personalized for the individual, in such a way that there is always a way to escape yet that way is (almost) never recognized nor attempted... that sounds familiar.

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## Tzardok

A very short and minimalistic timeline.

A long time ago: Vecna's mother is executed for practicing forbidden magic. Vecna swears revenge.Some time later: Vecna becomes a lich and builds an empire with his undead army. He gives his loyal right hand, the vampire Kas, an intelligent sword to ensure his loyalty.On the height of Vecna's power and the eve of his triumph Kas, who was driven insane by his sword, betrays Vecna and cuts of his eye and hand. At the end of the fight, both of them are thrown into different planes. Vecna's empire breaks apart and fades into Flan folklore.Vecna, who over the centuries ascended to demigodhood, tries a plan to become a greater god and ruler of Oerth by concentrating all his divine self into a single avatar and enter Oerth. He is defeated as part of the adventure _Vecna Lives!_. After his defeat he is in the weakened position to be drawn into the mists of Ravenloft. The year is 580 CY in Oerth and 750 BC in Ravenloft (for comparison, 3.0 starts in Oerth with 591 CY and 3.5 starts in Ravenloft with 758 BC).Vecna attempts to escape his domain in the adventure _Vecna Reborn_.In _Die Vecna Die!_, the last adventure of 2e, Vecna lures Iuz into Ravenloft and devoures him to kickstart his own ascension to greater godhood and catapult himself wholy into Sigil. There he attempts to reshape the Great Wheel in his image. The players defeat him, allowing the Lady of Pain to dropkick him back to the Material Plane. Then she repairs the damage Vecna did to the multiverse (which is the justification for the differences between 2e and 3e). Vecna falls back down to lesser god.

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## afroakuma

> Vecna seems to figure into a bunch of different things, but I'm unclear on the order in which they happen. Do you have some kind of a summary of Vecna's personal timeline?


Shouldn't be too hard.

 Vecna is born as a member of an untouchable caste descended from the Ur-Flan in the Flan city of Fleeth to his mother Mazzel, a minor practitioner of arcane arts.
 Vecna is introduced by his mother to the Serpent, an indeterminate entity of magic who promises vast power to the young wizard.
 Vecna's mother is executed by the government for practicing witchcraft. Vecna vows revenge.
 And then we skip one thousand years.
 At some point, Vecna pens a foundational tome of dark arts, _Ordinary Necromancy_. He is also believed to have authored additions to the Book of Vile Darkness.
 Now a lich and ruler of an empire stretching across the Sheldomar Valley region, Vecna lays siege to the city of Fleeth, nearly being destroyed and only surviving thanks to the help of his cambion servitor Acererak.
 Vecna conquers Fleeth and murders everyone except the leaders of the city, purely so they can live with the nightmare he built in the ruins of their land.
 Vecna is betrayed by Kas and thought destroyed except for his Hand and Eye.
 Vecna arises as a demigod. His cult plans to raise him to the power of a demigod through a ritual involving the ancient stone circles of Tovag Baragu. This fails due to the involvement of Iuz and Vecna ends up being drawn into the Demiplane of Dread.
 Vecna tries to defeat Kas by using powerful magic to cross from his own domain into the vampire's. Adventurers ruin his plans.
 Vecna's cult inveigles Iuz to be drawn to the Demiplane of Dread, where Vecna uses him as a springboard and power source to escape and invade Sigil.
 Vecna nearly tears down the multiverse and then adventurers wielding his own relics weaken his foothold. As soon as his grasp slips, the Lady of Pain throws him out at top speed. Vecna loses control of Iuz's powers and throws his Hand and Eye away in a fit of pique.
 A splinter cult called the Ebon Triad attempts to merge Hextor, Vecna, and Erythnul. Vecna is not on board. Their plans fail.
 And that brings us to the present!

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## Bohandas

What's going on with Iuz that he keeps getting trapped in places (by demigod Vecna, by pre-ascension Zagyg, by a simulacrum of his mother...)

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## Khedrac

> What's going on with Iuz that he keeps getting trapped in places (by demigod Vecna, by pre-ascension Zagyg, by a simulacrum of his mother...)


He's not the brightest spark and seems to have a positive genius for falling for the same trick twice...
*Spoiler: Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk*
Show

Yes, in the 3.5 hardback adventure he (briefly) gets trapped by Zagyg's Godtrap again.  He really doesn't learn from his mistakes.


To be honest, as an actual deity he'd be ruling a lot more of The Flanaess if he wasn't so inept - there are very few high-level characters about to properly oppose him.

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## Khedrac

I saw this (on another Forum) and though of Afroakuma...



> *Could an Immortal pull a Darklord out of Demiplane of Dread?*
> 
> Ok so a bit of backstory for this question.
> 
> I'm DMing 5e. Ran Curse of Strahd and it ended in a very interesting way, with one of the PCs turned into a Death Knight and made Darklord of her own Domain. I'm now DMing roughly the same group a campaign in Mystara. One of players wanted to be an Undead Warlock and with a player of the Death Knight came with an idea to make said Death Knight his patron, working how he contacted her on Demiplane of Dread via a very strong magical experiment gone wrong (as you can guess, this character is from Glantri). While Death Knight's player plays a new character, she also occasionally does a "voice in his head" for Undead Warlock. Her old character is observing Mystara through his eyes.
> 
> She privately asked me if there could be a possibility Death Knight could contact one of the Immortals and try to strike a deal* of some sort to get herself out of Demiplane of Dread. She did a bit of research on Immortals and considers contacting Loki because he has a history of tricking other Immortals. However, next session I may have an opportunity for that character to get the attention of Thanatos (long story short: they're in Nithian ruins). So I wanted to ask before I even consider if he or any other Entropic Immortal would let her in (which I do think chances are slim considering how Immortals do not like powerful visitors from multiverse outside Mystaraspace**) I need to know if they actually could do it. I know Vecna escaped Ravenloft by becoming a Greater God and supposedly PCs in "When Black Roses Bloom" acted as agents of Krynn Gods when they fetched Lord Soth but Immortals are not gods and their powers are different. What do you think?
> 
> * - That PC was originally a Fiend Pact Warlock so from a devil to Dark Powers to Entropic Immortals sounds about right for her life choices so far.
> ** - I assume this is why the player is eyeing Loki to help her old character, hoping his tricks will shield her from other Immortals showing up to kick her ass dead.


And I thought that while I don't link Mystara with Ravenloft I know someone who can, hence reposting their question here so I can ferry back Afroakuma's wisdom...

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## Tzardok

The Dark Sun source books mention that an elemental cleric makes a pact with the mysterious lords of Athas' elemental planes, who also wage war against each other. But I haven't found any elaboration or description of these lords. Who or what are these elemental lords?

By the way, the 2e descriptions of Athas' elemental planes mention that visitors are immune to the plane's most prevalent danger (drowning on Water, fire on Fire, falling damage on Air, noxious fumes on Magma and so on). Do you think this is a good idea to implement, or should Athas' elemental planes be as dangerous to visit as the proper elemental planes of the Great Wheel?

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## Blueiji

Was recently reading a wiki article on the Blood War, and I stumbled upon a piece of lore on Asmodeus that Ive never heard before. Ive copy-pasted it into a spoiler box below.

*Spoiler*
Show

Asmodeus is actually a decoy/avatar/persona created in order to give the illusion that the ruler of hell is a devil of near-godlike power, and thus less threatening than what he actually is. Asmodeus is one of the twin serpents who created the planes, most likely older and more powerful than the gods themselves. If the good and probably even neutral gods knew what he really was, they'd freak out and then immediately team up to wreck Asmodeus forever which would of course unmake the universe. In his prime he might be a match for them, but the catch is that he's terribly injured from his fight with his lawful good equivalent long ago, and he needs to hide for as long as it takes to heal.

Is any part of this _at all_ canon? Or is this just fanon being presented as canon? Or is this perhaps canon, but only for certain versions/iterations of Planescape?

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## Bohandas

I remember the serpent god part being in an old 1e orn2e sourcebook, but much of that particular book's lore contradicted the other lore of that era (and of later editions)

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## Dalmosh

In general, what is the planar population of Death of Innocence like?  What sorts of folks end up there, and why do they stay?  Is the town fairly Viking in style/culture - given Niflheim's connection to the Asgardian pantheon?

How common is it to encounter gehreleths in Curst?

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## Thurbane

Is there an official/established alternate prime material plane that is like the Mirror Dimension in Star Trek (evil Kirk etc.), or similar to the alternate timeline of Injustice: Gods Among Us where alignments are inverted/the heroes are villains, and vice-versa?

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## Naanomi

I think I asked something like this four threads ago, but I can't find it so... apologies for replication.

~What is the relationship between the Old Ones and the Far Realm?  
~Did they create it (because they created everything), or is it some kind of accident or other mistake beyond their influence?  
~Do they resent that the bad sectors on the MultiCosmos' hard drive keep throwing errors into their fingerpainting projects created cosmologies, and perhaps work to limit its contamination (in their indirect ways)?  
~Is the Far Realm out there bothering other cosmologies and... noncosmological spaces of various kinds (Near Realm, Vast Medium, Bagspace, the Old One's own little pocket I can't remember the name of), or is it more 'interactive' with the Great Wheel for some reason?

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## Tzardok

Hey Naanomi. Long time no see. 

I just did a short dive through the older Planar Questions Threads regarding Old Ones and everything I've found boils down to "They generally don't interact with cosmologies they've finished creating" and "they don't have anything to do with the Far Realms".

Regarding the last question: I would think that the Near Realm and Bagspace are still counted as part or at least adjactant to the Wheel. In the Vast Medium there propably is nothing to interact with for the Far Realms, and other cosmologies, well... did anybody build a permanent portal to the Far Realms, like the Vast Gate in the Wheel? If not, they propably get bothered less.

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## Naanomi

> Hey Naanomi. Long time no see.


Yeah, I didn't realize things got rolling here again (I switched to 5e... Not lorewise but mechanically... because I run games for student groups with those rules) so I've been more active on that forum of late

Now that I know things are active here again though I am sure I'll get smoten by black lightning any day now for my insolence

----------


## Bohandas

> Is the Far Realm out there bothering other cosmologies


It's Eberron's plane of Xoriot. (Which I personally interpret not as a true plane but as a hole in the cosmology leading into the far realm, wherein the Far Realm and Eberron's planar reality intermix; a little bit like a cross between the Paraelemental/Quasielemental Planes and the Eye of Terror.)

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## Silly Name

> Was recently reading a wiki article on the Blood War, and I stumbled upon a piece of lore on Asmodeus that Ive never heard before. Ive copy-pasted it into a spoiler box below.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Asmodeus is actually a decoy/avatar/persona created in order to give the illusion that the ruler of hell is a devil of near-godlike power, and thus less threatening than what he actually is. Asmodeus is one of the twin serpents who created the planes, most likely older and more powerful than the gods themselves. If the good and probably even neutral gods knew what he really was, they'd freak out and then immediately team up to wreck Asmodeus forever which would of course unmake the universe. In his prime he might be a match for them, but the catch is that he's terribly injured from his fight with his lawful good equivalent long ago, and he needs to hide for as long as it takes to heal.
> 
> Is any part of this _at all_ canon? Or is this just fanon being presented as canon? Or is this perhaps canon, but only for certain versions/iterations of Planescape?


There are multiple, conflicting accounts on Asmodeus' origins and goals. I asked a question about the Twin Serpents here too, and while I like it as a theory, it's heavily contradicted by the most widely-accepted "creation stories" of the Great Wheel in general and of the Nine Hells.

The "canon" answer may be that "Asmodeus intentionally spreads conflicting accounts about himself, in a grand ploy to leave everyone else in the dark about his true goals and motives", which is pretty par for the course for ol' Asmy.

The part about the other gods freaking out and killing Asmodeus, resulting in the death of the universe, is fanon even in light of the tale of the Twin Serpents: Asmodeus isn't a metaphysical lynchpin of the universe, and in any case the Pact Primeval ensures that none of the gods would attack him. Also, the other serpent, is Jazirian, the Lawful Good god of couatls, who, while a Greater Deity, is never stated to be so powerful as to be a threat to all other gods.

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## Bohandas

> and in any case the Pact Primeval ensures that none of the gods would attack him


I'm pretty sure only the gods of law are signatories of the Pact

----------


## Tzardok

> I'm pretty sure only the gods of law are signatories of the Pact


And I'm pretty sure no one knows who signed it and what it does actually say. If we didn't know where one of the copies is kept I would even doubt its existence.
Incidentally, any conjecture on defenses of the copies kept by the archons and the modrons?

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## Alea

> It's Eberron's plane of Xoriot. (Which I personally interpret not as a true plane but as a hole in the cosmology leading into the far realm, wherein the Far Realm and Eberron's planar reality intermix; a little bit like a cross between the Paraelemental/Quasielemental Planes and the Eye of Terror.)


Eeeeeeeh. I have pretty strong doubts about this. Xoriat is the moon of chaos and madnessbut those are still very This Realm things. The alien nature of the Far Realms is different. The daelkyr arent _that_ weird; even slaad are more incomprehensible than they are.

This does cause problems when trying to incorporate Eberron into the Great Wheel, of course, since the daelkyr are canonically, within Eberron, the creators of various creatures attributed to the Far Realm outside Eberron. This is part of the reason that I prefer not to try to include the Great Wheel when Im running an Eberron game¹ (I know, heresy here). 5es approach (more heresy) was to just retcon things so the moons are separate from the planes and Eberron just has botha change I find exceedingly stupid, personally.

Shardspace can exist in a Planescape or Spelljammer game easily enoughthere, the Eberron canon is just ignored when it becomes too problematic and it doesnt matter because the focus isnt on that one world.

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## Fable Wright

I will say that the explanation that Afroakuma posited about Shardspace is pretty good for plot hooks, though. Ring of Siberys chunked of planar 'bubbles' from existing planes, and one of the chunks was a cyst from the Far Realms. The essence of the Far Realms was brought into planar reality for prolonged periods, fundamentally changing its nature to be comprehensible-but-maddening since it's cut off from its native environment. You get Daelkyr as organisms that adapted well to the change, eager to pick apart the shapes and minds of mortals that, in turn, give them form as Outsiders; and the things that didn't adapt well to the change... well, they're not going to be leaving their plane to an even _more_ hostile reality, now are they?

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## Naanomi

My 'canon' is that each of the Eberron demi-planes have a tiny portal to a Great Wheel plane that they draw energy from at their heart... And Xoriat has one  to the Plane of Nightmares (in the region of dreams) which canonically had Far Realm corruption present

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## Alea

> My 'canon' is that each of the Eberron demi-planes have a tiny portal to a Great Wheel plane that they draw energy from at their heart... And Xoriat has one  to the Plane of Nightmares (in the region of dreams) which canonically had Far Realm corruption present


Yeah, Ive gone with this in the past, but Shavarath is really hard. Ive generally gone with like a weird, automatically-moving portal that just follows wherever the fighting is thickest (and archons are actually intervening). Problem is, my impression is that there arent really archon armies present on the battlefield anywhere in the Blood War much of the time, which has to be tweaked for Shavarath.

The other hardship is just preventing people from leaving Shardspace via the moons, since its pretty key to the impetus for faith in the Silver Flame, the Blood of Vol, and cults to the Keeper that there really isnt any other way to avoid Dolurrh. Primarily the Blood of Vol: the Silver Flame can get by without the threat of Dolurrh (on some level the beliefs of the Church of the Silver Flame are the most normal by planar standards anyway), and Keeper cults are incredibly niche anyway, but the Blood of Vol is a mainstream religion (at least in Karrnath) that convinces the common people that undeath is a good idealargely because Dolurrh sucks that much.

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## Tzardok

> Yeah, Ive gone with this in the past, but Shavarath is really hard. Ive generally gone with like a weird, automatically-moving portal that just follows wherever the fighting is thickest (and archons are actually intervening). Problem is, my impression is that there arent really archon armies present on the battlefield anywhere in the Blood War much of the time, which has to be tweaked for Shavarath.


Easiest solution is that Shavarath has three connections: to Abyss, Baator and Celestia. 




> The other hardship is just preventing people from leaving Shardspace via the moons, since its pretty key to the impetus for faith in the Silver Flame, the Blood of Vol, and cults to the Keeper that there really isnt any other way to avoid Dolurrh. Primarily the Blood of Vol: the Silver Flame can get by without the threat of Dolurrh (on some level the beliefs of the Church of the Silver Flame are the most normal by planar standards anyway), and Keeper cults are incredibly niche anyway, but the Blood of Vol is a mainstream religion (at least in Karrnath) that convinces the common people that undeath is a good idealargely because Dolurrh sucks that much.


Eberron's planes are still infinite. If each has only a few connections in those parts of the plane that are the strongest expression of what that plane is (which are logically the most inhospitable places), leaving the Orrerry that way would be a rare and unheard of event.

Other problem: assuming that Dolurrh is no exception and has a conduit to an Outer Plane too, where does it connect to?

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## Alea

I seem to recall having this discussion previously, but personally Id just make it a demiplane. Theres no need for Dolurrh to be particularly _big_, after alltheres literally nothing in it aside from souls that are fading away. A demiplane that wraps around would be quite sufficient I think, since youd never be able to recognize that youd returned to somewhere youd already been. I think Id tossed Vacuum as another possibility, if you wanted more space, for much the same reason.

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## Naanomi

Dolurrh seems pretty parallel in effect to The Grey Wastes; though it also reminds me a bit of The Grey from Athas so... Maybe it is just a really corrupt connection to the Astral (which is why dead souls go there: A failed attempt to go through an astral conduit to the 'correct' afterlife beyond)

And I'm totally fine with Eberron's planes having multiple connection points at their heart... Irenia having a bigger portal (or many pinpoint portals) to the Positive Energy Plane, but also some lesser ties to the upper reaches of Celestia (for example)

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## Bohandas

> Eeeeeeeh. I have pretty strong doubts about this. Xoriat is the moon of chaos and madnessbut those are still very This Realm things. The alien nature of the Far Realms is different. The daelkyr arent _that_ weird; even slaad are more incomprehensible than they are.


IIRC Xoriot is explicitly identified with the Far Realm several times in the books

And parts of the description on page 99 of the original campaign setting book is copied verbatim from the description of the Far Realm in the 3e Manual of The Planes (particularly the segment about the rivers of milk-like substances and the blue globs of giant ticks)

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## Tzardok

> IIRC Xoriot is explicitly identified with the Far Realm several times in the books


Nah. The sources only say, paraphrased "Things that are associated with the Far Realms in Standard are to be associated with Xoriat if ported into Eberron". Nothing about Xoriat being the Far Realm, more the opposite of that.




> And parts of the description on page 99 of the original campaign setting book is copied verbatim from the description of the Far Realm in the 3e Manual of The Planes (particularly the segment about the rivers of milk-like substances and the blue globs of giant ticks)


This reeks to me like laziness instead of anything else. Not that the description in MotP wasn't lazy in the first place. Esspecially if we accept afrocanon on that matter and look at his description of the Far Realms.

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## Silly Name

So, while re-reading _The Book of Exalted Deeds_, I've come across something that confuses me: the Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar. According to the book, those two artifacts, associated with a Lawful Good deity, have one power in particular that makes no sense to me: if the Amulet and Cup are displayed together, any onlooker risks being overcome by greed and try to wrestle the artifacts from their owner. _Why?_ Reading on the lore on Al'Akbar I can find, I see no reason why he (or Al'Asran) would want those items to magically induce greed into people, especially considering they do have powers that only work when used in tandem.

This seems more like a curse put on the items by some evil third party, but I can't find any info on that.

----------


## Batcathat

> So, while re-reading _The Book of Exalted Deeds_, I've come across something that confuses me: the Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar. According to the book, those two artifacts, associated with a Lawful Good deity, have one power in particular that makes no sense to me: if the Amulet and Cup are displayed together, any onlooker risks being overcome by greed and try to wrestle the artifacts from their owner. _Why?_ Reading on the lore on Al'Akbar I can find, I see no reason why he (or Al'Asran) would want those items to magically induce greed into people, especially considering they do have powers that only work when used in tandem.
> 
> This seems more like a curse put on the items by some evil third party, but I can't find any info on that.


I'm not familiar with the items in question, but maybe it's supposed to be like a test? "Are you good enough to resist it?" Though if that's the case, it does seem like giving into temptation should come with some consequences.

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## Tzardok

From what I know about artifacts, in 2e each artifact had drawbacks or curses by dint of being an artifact. The Cup and the Talisman had this specific drawback already back in the adventure "Day of Al'Akbar", but their description in the Book of Artifacts omit that specific drawback, only mentioning that people have been going to war out of greed over those two objects for ages. Maybe someone thought the greed they evoke needed a mechanical representation, or maybe the artifacts' history caused the curse: these objects have been stolen and fought over out of greed for so long that evoking greed has become a part of what they _are_.

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## Silly Name

> I'm not familiar with the items in question, but maybe it's supposed to be like a test? "Are you good enough to resist it?" Though if that's the case, it does seem like giving into temptation should come with some consequences.


It's literally a Will save you have to pass, and it's triggered simply by being in the presence of both items at the same time. Hardly a "test", plus it makes using the items an absurd hassle.

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## Khedrac

> From what I know about artifacts, in 2e each artifact had drawbacks or curses by dint of being an artifact. The Cup and the Talisman had this specific drawback already back in the adventure "Day of Al'Akbar", but their description in the Book of Artifacts omit that specific drawback, only mentioning that people have been going to war out of greed over those two objects for ages. Maybe someone thought the greed they evoke needed a mechanical representation, or maybe the artifacts' history caused the curse: these objects have been stolen and fought over out of greed for so long that evoking greed has become a part of what they _are_.


Not just 2nd Ed - ever since before 1st Ed every artifact has had a major drawback, usually of the sort that makes sensible players go "no, not worth it".  I think at some point this was clarified not to affect gods or the original owners of the artifacts.

Even in Master D&D (BECMI) artifacts looked like something you gathered because you were going to need them, but you generally didn't actually want anything to do with them.

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## afroakuma

> I saw this (on another Forum) and though of Afroakuma...
> 
> And I thought that while I don't link Mystara with Ravenloft I know someone who can, hence reposting their question here so I can ferry back Afroakuma's wisdom...


This was actually a really interesting question to delve into, and in fact might address something that Tzardok wanted regarding the Dark Powers.

My ultimate conclusion is *no*, an Immortal, even a Hierarch, would not be able to pull a darklord from the Demiplane of Dread inherently. Now, as a corollary to that, it is *plausible* that an Immortal, or a powerful enough deity, could incite a conjunction between the Material Plane and the Demiplane of Dread, but while this might become an opportunity for a normal prisoner of the plane to cross the border and escape, the Dark Powers would likely mobilize to ensure that a darklord stays put unless they have already decided they can do better.

The reason this is interesting, however, is because an Immortal was involved in a kind of "proto-Ravenloft" event - the curse of Castle Amber, which whisked a castle and its mad inhabitants into an isolated realm cut off from escape by a mysterious deadly mist.

*Spoiler: So for those who read my Dark Powers thing*
Show

...this may have been the inspiration for the current version of their experiment, the Demiplane of Dread, anchored around Barovia and Ravenloft. The Dark Powers are known to have vast awareness of the Material Plane, it's quite likely they picked up on this happening.





> The Dark Sun source books mention that an elemental cleric makes a pact with the mysterious lords of Athas' elemental planes, who also wage war against each other. But I haven't found any elaboration or description of these lords. Who or what are these elemental lords?


They are deliberately left undefined, but they aren't anyone you might be thinking of. In fact, they aren't individual lords at all - elemental clerics may forge pacts with any number of beings who qualify as an "elemental lord," not just one unique individual for each element. They are powerful and often special elemental beings tied to the specific pockets of each Inner Plane that are concerned with Athas, regions substantially distinctive from their host plane by and large. For example, the Athasian Air boundary is a cloudy realm in which the clouds are "solid" and can be walked on, whereas in Air proper, this is a rare phenomenon; similarly, the Athasian Fire boundary is crimson earth ringed in labyrinthine walls of flame, a far cry from the endless inferno of Fire proper. 




> By the way, the 2e descriptions of Athas' elemental planes mention that visitors are immune to the plane's most prevalent danger (drowning on Water, fire on Fire, falling damage on Air, noxious fumes on Magma and so on). Do you think this is a good idea to implement, or should Athas' elemental planes be as dangerous to visit as the proper elemental planes of the Great Wheel?


I think it's dumb, but it's important to note that you only get to Athas's elemental boundaries by and large through the approval of and agency of the elemental lords - it's not very easy for someone to just pop over and visit. Thus, when they have extended this invitation, they are doing so with the protection necessary already allocated.




> Was recently reading a wiki article on the Blood War, and I stumbled upon a piece of lore on Asmodeus that Ive never heard before. Ive copy-pasted it into a spoiler box below.


Ah yes, that one. Just another one of the many many rumors that Asmodeus allows to circulate about himself. He's definitely not an antediluvian ubergod-snake, but it's a fun myth about him nonetheless.




> Question requiring sourcebook I can't find


I have to track down my copy of Planes of Conflict to get this for you.




> Is there an official/established alternate prime material plane that is like the Mirror Dimension in Star Trek (evil Kirk etc.), or similar to the alternate timeline of Injustice: Gods Among Us where alignments are inverted/the heroes are villains, and vice-versa?


I don't *believe* there is one specific one, no. It's been a while though and my 1e books are far from me, I strongly suspect that's where it would be if anywhere.




> ~What is the relationship between the Old Ones and the Far Realm?


Unknown and likely uninvolved, or an accidental byproduct they just didn't care about.




> Did they create it (because they created everything), or is it some kind of accident or other mistake beyond their influence?


"Beyond their influence" is a non-thing. Nothing is beyond the influence of the Old Ones. That doesn't mean that the Far Realm was in any way designed or intentional.




> Do they resent that the bad sectors on the MultiCosmos' hard drive keep throwing errors into their fingerpainting projects created cosmologies, and perhaps work to limit its contamination (in their indirect ways)?


The Old Ones are pretty inscrutable. We haven't seen any of their emissaries poking around the Far Realm or its incursions, so presumably they don't care.




> Is the Far Realm out there bothering other cosmologies and... noncosmological spaces of various kinds (Near Realm, Vast Medium, Bagspace, the Old One's own little pocket I can't remember the name of), or is it more 'interactive' with the Great Wheel for some reason?


In theory it's capable of contaminating nearly anything, and certainly the vestige Otiax would seem to suggest that the Far Realm has touched the Near Realm in some form. There isn't really anything in the Vast Medium to contaminate (that's sort of the point of it). Extradimensional spaces are unlikely to be *specifically* contaminated by contact with the Far Realm, but it's nowhere near impossible. The Old Ones' dimensional barrier would absolutely stop Far Realm interference with them directly.




> I will say that the explanation that Afroakuma posited about Shardspace is pretty good for plot hooks, though. Ring of Siberys chunked of planar 'bubbles' from existing planes, and one of the chunks was a cyst from the Far Realms. The essence of the Far Realms was brought into planar reality for prolonged periods, fundamentally changing its nature to be comprehensible-but-maddening since it's cut off from its native environment. You get Daelkyr as organisms that adapted well to the change, eager to pick apart the shapes and minds of mortals that, in turn, give them form as Outsiders; and the things that didn't adapt well to the change... well, they're not going to be leaving their plane to an even _more_ hostile reality, now are they?





> Yeah, Ive gone with this in the past, but Shavarath is really hard. Ive generally gone with like a weird, automatically-moving portal that just follows wherever the fighting is thickest (and archons are actually intervening). Problem is, my impression is that there arent really archon armies present on the battlefield anywhere in the Blood War much of the time, which has to be tweaked for Shavarath.


There's no real reason it has to be the actual Blood War, and there are always companies of this or that other exemplar race getting involved to try and jab it in this or that direction or accomplish other goals. Shavarath strikes me as being either a demiplane of war or a particularly interesting bubble of Acheron, possibly a kind of "flanking zone" for the demons, which would explain why archons have joined the fray there - demons definitely should not be on Acheron by and large.




> The other hardship is just preventing people from leaving Shardspace via the moons, since its pretty key to the impetus for faith in the Silver Flame, the Blood of Vol, and cults to the Keeper that there really isnt any other way to avoid Dolurrh.


It's entirely plausible that some element of the Rings of Siberys, the dragonshards that perfuse the whole smelly planet, and those below in some way bind the astral links of Eberron-born souls to its weird metaphysical space - not unlike how the Gray exists as an ugly fence for Athasian souls. In so doing, they make it very hard to actually escape Dolurrh as a final destiny - not *impossible*, since the Planes are vast and wondrous, but between how generally challenging it is to get to the moons in the first place, then to travel the planes, and then to find a solution to this - especially given that Eberron is cosmologically off the beaten path and doesn't have a ton of contact with worlds where there's a known alternative for one's afterlife...

----------


## Bohandas

> Is there an official/established alternate prime material plane that is like the Mirror Dimension in Star Trek (evil Kirk etc.), or similar to the alternate timeline of Injustice: Gods Among Us where alignments are inverted/the heroes are villains, and vice-versa?


It's not necessarily an alternate _plane_ but there is the world of Uerth from _Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk_, which has evil doubles of the people of Oerth (or a good double if the original was evil). Apparently the _Iron Bands of Bilarro_ magic item is named after Lord Robilar's double on Uerth.

(There was also the Doppel Cosmology from page 215 of the 3e manual of the planes, but that was explicitly not part of the standard cosmology)

----------


## redking

I just posted this on the Piazza, but I was inspired by the talk of Mystara in this thread. A bit of an effort post.

Fortunately, its not very hard. D&D 3.5 has 20 ranks for deities, with an additional rank of 0. More on the latter later. We will be rounding up when calculating Immortal to Deity ranks for this work.

20/36 = 0.5555555555555556
36/20 = 1.8




> Rank 0
> Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether.
> 
> Rank 1-5
> These entities, called demigods, are the weakest of the deities. A demigod can grant spells and perform a few deeds that are beyond mortal limits. A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more. A demigod controls a small godly realm (usually on an Outer Plane) and has minor control over a portfolio that includes one or more aspects of mortal existence. A demigod might be very accomplished in a single skill or a group of related skills, gain combat advantages in special circumstances, or be able to bring about minor changes in reality itself related to the portfolio.
> 
> Rank 6-10
> Called lesser deities, these entities grant spells and can perform more powerful deeds than demigods can. Lesser deities have anywhere from a few thousand to tens of thousands of worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods. They also have keener senses where their portfolios are concerned.
> 
> ...


*Immortals:*

Initiate 1 - 6
Temporal 7 - 12
Celestial 13 - 18
Empyreal 19 - 24
Eternal 25 - 30
Hierarch 31 - 36
Old One 37+ (equivalent to Overdeity)

*Deity to Immmortal ranks*.

Initiate 1 to Temporal 9 = rank 1 - 5 rank Demigod. Example: Al-Kalim is a 3rd ranked Immortal. When he meets a Deity from a different campaign setting, the Deity perceives Al-Kalim as a rank 2 Demigod.

Temporal 10 to Celestial 18 rank = 6 - 10 rank Lesser Deity. Example: Freya is a 13th ranked Celestial. When she meets a Deity from a different campaign setting, the Deity perceives Freya as a rank 8 Lesser Deity.

Empyreal 19 to Eternal 27 = 11 - 15 rank Intermediate Deity. Example: Orcus (who is apparently not the same as the Demonlord) is a 25th ranked Eternal. When he meets a Deity from a different campaign setting, the Deity perceives Orcus as a rank 14 Intermediate Deity.

Eternal 28 to Hierarch 36 = 16 - 20 rank Greater Deity. Example: Ordana is a 31st ranked Hierarch.  When she meets a Deity from a different campaign setting, the Deity perceives Ordana as a rank 18 Greater Deity.

*What is Divine Rank Zero in Mystara?*

Quasi Deities exist in Mystara in a strictly transitional state. When a candidate for immortality is accepted, it becomes a rank zero Immortal, exactly the same as a rank zero Deity. The candidate must succeed it its quest or die trying.

The Immortal ranks are more granular than divine ranks, but they are socially constructed by Immortal society rather than being an objective difference to the divine ranks. A given quantity of sugar is the same whether you calculate it in pounds or kilos. Likewise, Immortals assign their own ranks Immortal ranks to Deities when they come across them. For example, a Mystara Immortal meeting the 18th divine rank Shar from the Forgotten Realms setting will perceive her Immortal rank as a 33rd ranked Hierarch. 

Immortals are focused on Mystara because most of them came from that planet. Its also possible that the Old Ones have programmed the Immortals to take less interest in the rest of the multiverse. Certainly no Immortal is bothering with the Blood War or other planar controversies. Nor are the Immortals of Mystara bothered by Deities from elsewhere. The Immortals are quite tight knit and do not tolerate interference from outside. Not even the Entropic Immortals tolerate interlopers. If Mystara is to be destroyed, it will be by hand of the Entropic Immortals, not some foreign Deity like Tharzidun.

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## Silly Name

> It's not necessarily an alternate _plane_ but there is the world of Uerth from _Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk_, which has evil doubles of the people of Oerth (or a good double if the original was evil).


So, what goes on on Aerth, Eerth and Ierth?  :Small Big Grin:

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## Naanomi

> Old One 37+ (equivalent to Overdeity)


I disagree with this part.  I buy that Overdeities serve the Old One's interested, but the Old Ones are at least one stage (and possible more) 'beyond' them in the Cosmological corporate ladder... With incalculably greater abilities and scope of influence.  Overdeities worry about single aspects of single Crystal Spheres... Old Ones worry about cosmologies (though, to be fair, 'worry' is a bit much... Mostly just create them and then move on to the next project)




> So, what goes on on Aerth, Eerth and Ierth?


Oerth, Aerth, Uerth, Yarth, and Earth all exist; each one similar but vary (mostly on how strong the magic is there).  Earth has essentially no magic (you may be familiar with this setting).  

There is a number of small canonical crossover events.  It is sometimes implied that some modules take place in the 'less magic than Oerth but not no magic like Earth' settings... Castle Amber, Masque of the Red Death, etc.

----------


## Thurbane

> It's not necessarily an alternate _plane_ but there is the world of Uerth from _Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk_, which has evil doubles of the people of Oerth (or a good double if the original was evil). Apparently the _Iron Bands of Bilarro_ magic item is named after Lord Robilar's double on Uerth.
> 
> (There was also the Doppel Cosmology from page 215 of the 3e manual of the planes, but that was explicitly not part of the standard cosmology)


Very interesting, I might try to track down more info...

----------


## afroakuma

> Very interesting, I might try to track down more info...


There's relatively little, but here it is for you:

 Oerth is the one "fully within" the D&D cosmology as we know it.
 Aerth is less magical than Oerth but has closer ties with its fey boundary and remains a pretty darn magical place. It is outside the conventional D&D cosmology and closely parallels Earth.]
 Yarth is a bit more Conan-esque and is considerably lower-magic than Oerth, but still has a sprinkling of magic-users and magic items, and plenty of monsters. It is outside the conventional D&D cosmology. Yarth closely parallels Oerth.
 Uerth is even less magical, with magic being an uncertain and hard-to-use force. It *may* be cognate to Gothic Earth, the world of _Masque of the Red Death_. If not, it would likely be outside the conventional D&D cosmology. Uerth's paralleling is unknown. It is believed to be a "bizarro" world where evil cognates exist to good characters and vice versa.
 Earth is interesting because we know of two Earths in canon - our own, which is entirely nonmagical and outside the conventional cosmology, and Gothic Earth, where magic exists but is dangerous and rare. It is plausible that Gothic Earth is actually "Uerth."

----------


## Tzardok

> This was actually a really interesting question to delve into, and in fact might address something that Tzardok wanted regarding the Dark Powers.


You know what? It does. Thank you.




> They are deliberately left undefined, but they aren't anyone you might be thinking of. In fact, they aren't individual lords at all - elemental clerics may forge pacts with any number of beings who qualify as an "elemental lord," not just one unique individual for each element. They are powerful and often special elemental beings tied to the specific pockets of each Inner Plane that are concerned with Athas, regions substantially distinctive from their host plane by and large. For example, the Athasian Air boundary is a cloudy realm in which the clouds are "solid" and can be walked on, whereas in Air proper, this is a rare phenomenon; similarly, the Athasian Fire boundary is crimson earth ringed in labyrinthine walls of flame, a far cry from the endless inferno of Fire proper.


Oh, I wasn't expecting names, or any relation to a named being from outside. I also didn't think that there was a single lord per element, I just hoped that, when there is mention of lords and of organized warfare in their name, that their is _something_ regarding elemental society, or if the lords are simply big elementals or unique beings or a specific race or _somehow_ different from the average elemental. If there is nothing, well *shrug*

----------


## Thurbane

While doing some research into siege weapons, I came across mention of Kezefbane - a magical siege engine/artifact - in City of Splendors: Waterdeep.

Couldn't seem to turn up much on this item online, apart from the fact it may feature in the novel Thornhold?

Any thoughts? Any stats? Any relationship to Kezef the Chaos Hound?

----------


## Caelestion

It's almost certainly related, yes.  How, I don't know.

----------


## Naanomi

Used in the Second Troll War to break the siege on Waterdeep... Controlled by three magic rings... Last seen hidden in Blackstaff tower... Mentioned in the City of Splendor books, and maybe Dragon #251... Not sure about the novels though

----------


## Thurbane

Seeing as Kezef has DR 15 admantine and good (CoR p.145), maybe it's projectiles count as adamantine and holy?

----------


## afroakuma

> While doing some research into siege weapons, I came across mention of Kezefbane - a magical siege engine/artifact - in City of Splendors: Waterdeep.
> 
> Couldn't seem to turn up much on this item online, apart from the fact it may feature in the novel Thornhold?


It does, and sadly while I *own* it, it's in storage and I never actually read it. It'll be a while before I can properly consult it to verify.




> Any stats?


Nope.




> Any relationship to Kezef the Chaos Hound?


Probably not, oddly. A siege weapon is not exactly practical in re: smooshing a plane-strolling doom dog.




> Any thoughts?


What we *know* is that it's a siege engine that can magically change in size, and is affiliated with Tyr. It was brought to bear against trolls, so it's possible that it confers some benefits against fast healing and regeneration. My best guess as to its origin is that when the gods trapped Kezef, Gond had made Tyr a bracelet that would resist the Chaos Hound's mighty jaws, forged from the same material that constituted Kezef's chains. It had the power to resize so that no amount of compressive force could crush it apart. Tyr refused to wear it out of concern that such cowardice might alert Kezef to the strength of the chains before he was bound, should the Hound think to test the strength of it.

Now, how it ended up as a siege weapon with that name... well, we just have to wait until I get my hands on that novel.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Bullet06320

https://www.tsrarchive.com/3f/WATERDEEP2CX.PDF

kezefbane is mentioned here on pg 11 briefly

every reference i could find points to the novel thornhold. for more information read the book i geuss, lol
its been well over a decade since i read it so i dont recall

----------


## Tzardok

Got another Ravenloft question, specifically about the domain of Gundarak. 2e sources indicate that when it appeared, the Gundarakites revered Nerull. 3.x replaced him with Erlin. If they really were Nerull worshippers, that implies that Gundarak originally hails from the Flanaess. Are there any signs where Gundarak was originially located? Or would it be better to just take Erlin and ignore that Nerull was ever a thing there, so that Gundarak can remain setting-removed?

Also, what can you tell me about the domain of Malosia?

----------


## afroakuma

> Got another Ravenloft question, specifically about the domain of Gundarak. 2e sources indicate that when it appeared, the Gundarakites revered Nerull. 3.x replaced him with Erlin.


That source is irrelevant, given that it's a third-party book that was specifically required to drop references to WotC-owned game worlds. The only thing I'd do with one of their books is set it on fire.




> If they really were Nerull worshippers, that implies that Gundarak originally hails from the Flanaess. Are there any signs where Gundarak was originially located?


Egh... we could probably look at names and do some kind of comparison or poke-about to infer where it would have originated, but Gundarak was never particularly interesting and neither is Oerth geography.




> Also, what can you tell me about the domain of Malosia?


If you've heard of it, you have everything there is on it. Knowing that there's only the one novel, no sourcebook coverage, and that it's all summarized on the Ravenloft wiki page for that domain and darklord, do you have any questions about it you feel I could answer that those resources cannot?  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Dalmosh

What are relations like between Eberron Mindflayers and those of other Prime Worlds or the planes?

----------


## Tzardok

> Egh... we could probably look at names and do some kind of comparison or poke-about to infer where it would have originated, but Gundarak was never particularly interesting and neither is Oerth geography.


Maybe I'll come up with something and share it.




> If you've heard of it, you have everything there is on it. Knowing that there's only the one novel, no sourcebook coverage, and that it's all summarized on the Ravenloft wiki page for that domain and darklord, do you have any questions about it you feel I could answer that those resources cannot?


Right. Stupid question. Ignore me.




> What are relations like between Eberron Mindflayers and those of other Prime Worlds or the planes?


Propably don't know about each other.

----------


## afroakuma

> Maybe I'll come up with something and share it.


 :Small Sigh:  Why must you keep focusing on underdeveloped garbage? A phrase which *includes* Oerth's stupid boring excuses for nations?

I went and did the research. Gundarak was never on Oerth, it was never anywhere except the Demiplane of Dread. Gundar wasn't selected by the Dark Powers, he just stupidly walked through a temporary portal and got stuck. Most likely he was from the Dim Forest between Geoff and Bissel, though where exactly he walked into the Mists is unknown.




> Right. Stupid question. Ignore me.


I mean if you have something you want to ask, I'm all ears, I just don't know what to offer given that there has only ever been the one book and I'd literally just be paraphrasing the wiki at you.




> What are relations like between Eberron Mindflayers and those of other Prime Worlds or the planes?


Virtually nonexistent. Illithids don't often collaborate between worlds at the best of times, and the vast majority of flayers on Eberron would have been - I'd have to check because I actively dislike and do not care about Eberron and haven't read the books in ages - created by the daelkyr, I believe, using methods they gleaned from the flayers of other worlds in their endless mad gazing across the cosmos for new horrible things to do.

----------


## White Blade

In Savage Species, Ritual of Vitality let's you change species. If a society mastered one such ritual that enabled them to turn their leading members into angels or archons, is there any reason that the angelic hosts might intervene to prevent them from doing so? Or would it be right to assume that only the _Forces Of Evil_ would have an interest in stopping this?

----------


## Tzardok

> In Savage Species, Ritual of Vitality let's you change species. If a society mastered one such ritual that enabled them to turn their leading members into angels or archons, is there any reason that the angelic hosts might intervene to prevent them from doing so? Or would it be right to assume that only the _Forces Of Evil_ would have an interest in stopping this?


This reminds me of this answer.

----------


## Bohandas

What information is known about Ouiyanspace (aka The Broken Sphere)

----------


## afroakuma

> What information is known about Ouiyanspace (aka The Broken Sphere)


We know it had 18 planets surrounding a powerful sun known as Aeyenna, that it existed for millennia before breaking, and that some of the worlds found in it included Thoris, Hedriana, Elias, Asveleyn, Resanel, Ondora, BedevanSov, Ladria, and Colurranur. Living beings native to the sphere included the aboleths (by definition, though they escaped through their own methods), the Sh'tarrgh, the Lovokei, the Broul, the Kutalla, and the Juna. The source of this information mentions humans, but it should be noted that this was likely driven by perspective bias, as the person observing the past through mental contact with the Spelljammer was himself human.

That's about it. Of the things so named above, we know essentially nothing but their names. I should mention that there's only one source for this info and it's... bad.  :Small Sigh:

----------


## Naanomi

What was the path and fate of the souls of beings who died before the Outer Planes had formed?

What Prime race was dominant/prominent when the Gods first manifested?  The True Ancestors?  Juna?  Reigar?  Someone else?

----------


## Edreyn

Hello, everyone.
I have a question about Bytopia this time. As I understand, it happens, once in a while, that evil adventurers or even evil outsiders attack Upper Planes, for whatever reason. It was even in the OOTS comic.

Now, Celestia, Elesium and Arborea have their own armies of outsiders that bite. Beastlands can deploy countless dangerous animals, Ysgard is full of heroes eager to fight and Arcadia has an organized militia. What about Bytopia though? It's a pastoral place, with farmers and craftsman. Who and how will protect them if someone evil attacks?

----------


## Naanomi

Well, first I imagine if it was a large scale attack that Elysium and Celestia would get involved.  Half the plane isn't exactly naturally safe to run around in either.

But beyond that, a big part of Byopia is communities banding together to face hardships together.  I imagine farmers and miners and lumberjacks organizing mass militias and 'protecting the homestead', rallying to the aid of your neighbors, etc.  A thousand 'gotta save the farm from them raiders', 'goblins are squatting in the mines and it is up to the miners to free it', 'hunter in the woods takes out the big bad wolf' scenarios at once.  Not to say it would be chaotic or hyper individualized and disperse for long, it is a lawful leaning place that would pull together an organized front if necessary

----------


## afroakuma

> What was the path and fate of the souls of beings who died before the Outer Planes had formed?


The Outer Planes, in a primitive state, appeared before incarnate souls did. Refer back to thread 5 - the Inner and the Outer both formed before the Prime proper.




> What Prime race was dominant/prominent when the Gods first manifested?  The True Ancestors?  Juna?  Reigar?  Someone else?


None were either dominant or prominent; insofar as a "god" was present, technically Io arose before any Prime race, but he wasn't quite a god at that time. The first gods arose in response to the emergence of the first dragons, though these were little more than primal demiurges. The gods predated the Juna (god-created), the reigar (god-created) and other races. Not sure who the True Ancestors are supposed to be.




> Now, Celestia, Elesium and Arborea have their own armies of outsiders that bite. Beastlands can deploy countless dangerous animals, Ysgard is full of heroes eager to fight and Arcadia has an organized militia. What about Bytopia though? It's a pastoral place, with farmers and craftsman. Who and how will protect them if someone evil attacks?


Bytopia is only half pastoral, the other half is Shurrock. Nobody could ever reasonably accuse Shurrock of being pastoral. Traders and adventurers move between the two layers, and represent a significant amount of combat potential if they were pressed to defend the plane against an incursion of evil. Too, the pastoral nature of the plane belies the diligence and self-sacrifice that denotes the character of Bytopians - they are resolute in ways that Arcadia's defense forces can only dream of, because they are motivated by the common good above any sense of law or order. Lastly, of course, the plane has powerful denizens such as adamantine dragons.

Bytopia is still one of the more vulnerable Upper Planes for incursions, mind you (Belierin, Karasuthra, and Ysgard are other common breakthrough points) but that evil is usually driven back into the depths of the earth with great ease.

----------


## Naanomi

> Not sure who the True Ancestors are supposed to be.


{Edit: sorry 'real ancestors' not true ancestors}

I never got a good sense of that either.  I see the term thrown around now and then (both in discussions and in actual gaming product) as the first 'spread life around to different worlds' species; sometimes in ways that makes me think of Juna but also placed on the timeline earlier than that.  

I always imagined them as whichever Aboleth servitor race escaped control first and spread to the stars, but not with a lot of evidence other than timeline to base that assumption on.

----------


## afroakuma

> {Edit: sorry 'real ancestors' not true ancestors}
> 
> I never got a good sense of that either.  I see the term thrown around now and then (both in discussions and in actual gaming product) as the first 'spread life around to different worlds' species; sometimes in ways that makes me think of Juna but also placed on the timeline earlier than that.


I need to retrieve my books to check on this; my own impression is that the "real ancestors" were supposed to be the Juna, but that a disconnect between the novels and the game material caused those terms to get separated by fans. I have seen the timelines you refer to but they're a bit of a jumble and there is some weird stuff afoot there. We know the Juna were involved in the creation of the Spelljammer, and the novel makes no mention of any prior ancestral race. As far as I can tell, the "vedmoti" are a purely fan creation.

----------


## Naanomi

> but that a disconnect between the novels and the game material caused those terms to get separated by fans


Seems very possible, it has been a long time since I've read any of it myself but I do remember it being... Poorly coordinated at best...

I'd love a good Spelljammer timeline (even moreso one that put it in context of larger Planar events) but I've never seen one that didn't seem at least a small bit fishy

----EDIT to add question/feedback request----

So does this look right to you for a rough broad strokes spelljammer timeline?

~Aboleth and their creations dominate the young Prime.  Dragons of some kind are around, and some migrated elemental life here and there.  Probably some other horrors and Beholders as well.

*(The War of Law and Chaos starts sometime but doesn't impact the Prime directly for a long time)

(Gods later make an appearance, much to Aboleth consternation)

~The Juna take to the stars (along with, probably to a lesser degree, other species from their sphere) and dominate the local spelljammer scene for quite a while.  Gods have probably acted to create some other life here and there as well.

~The Juna decline, but a few other races relatively quickly move to be big players in the Prime... Early Kreen and the Reigar and their peers 

~The Reigar collapse, leaving a brief lull in powerful Space powers; but the Arcane make an appearance and begin peddling Spelljamming tech that reboots the space race

~There is a period of time where known living races that are not in power in modern times flourish (most of your given 'old faded empires' not already mentioned)

(The War of Law and Chaos spills into the Prime more prominently, including Vaati domination of some Prime worlds and friends decimating some planets)

~The 'normal fantasy races' (elves, humans, dwarves) slowly displace the Kreen and Syllix and the like on the broad scale

~??? The first Unhuman War happens, which spread orcs and trolls and goblinoids to many worlds

(The War of Law and Chaos Ends)

~Illithid show up and throw everything into disarray for a period before the Gith rebellion

~More or less current Spelljammer setting stuff happening here on out

----------


## Edreyn

Thank you for your answer about Bytopia. Now more questions.

1) In old "Hordes of the Underdark", the expansion of Neverwinter Nights, in the end the hero is going against Mephistopheles. One of possible endings, non Canon I guess, is to use his True Name to make him become hero's subject, with hero becoming ruler of Cania, but ruling from Mephistopheles shadow.

My question is - even if hero would do everything correctly and make sure that Mephistopheles can't harm him directly or indirectly, is it possible that other baatezu, and most important - Asmodeus, won't feel that something is wrong? I thought Asmodeus knows about everything in Baator. Won't he or any other devil intervene? I think that hero's ruling as grey cardinal would last a few days tops - because others would want to have some amusement.

2) I think that there might be relatively similar places on different planes. For example if a traveler goes through a portal and finds himself in a cave with some minerals or valuable minerals. It can be Bytopia mines, Acheron mines, one of Ysgard layers or even a Plane of Earth. Can those be distinguished? Is there some kind of psychological feeling, a feel of Good or Evil? How can one quickly and harmlessly understand which Plane he is on?

----------


## afroakuma

> Thank you for your answer about Bytopia. Now more questions.
> 
> 1) In old "Hordes of the Underdark", the expansion of Neverwinter Nights, in the end the hero is going against Mephistopheles. One of possible endings, non Canon I guess, is to use his True Name to make him become hero's subject, with hero becoming ruler of Cania, but ruling from Mephistopheles shadow.
> 
> My question is - even if hero would do everything correctly and make sure that Mephistopheles can't harm him directly or indirectly, is it possible that other baatezu, and most important - Asmodeus, won't feel that something is wrong? I thought Asmodeus knows about everything in Baator. Won't he or any other devil intervene? I think that hero's ruling as grey cardinal would last a few days tops - because others would want to have some amusement.


Oh Asmodeus would absolutely know. He's not even your biggest problem, though - while the Lord Below would be aware, he would probably find it quite amusing, at least for a while. No, *that* honor goes to Mrs. Phistopheles - Baalphegor. She would definitely know, and the only reason she'd leave the insolent monkey alive is so that she could track down how it happened and ensure its erasure. That's not so say she'll necessarily go easy on her husband for it either. Eventually one or the other would be required to step in once a Duke of Hell or someone higher-up started feeling ambitious about taking over Cania, but it could plausibly go on for longer than a few days depending on their respective moods.

Mind you, the Lord of the Eighth's court might have something to say about it, too.




> 2) I think that there might be relatively similar places on different planes. For example if a traveler goes through a portal and finds himself in a cave with some minerals or valuable minerals. It can be Bytopia mines, Acheron mines, one of Ysgard layers or even a Plane of Earth. Can those be distinguished?


By someone with reasonable knowledge, absolutely.




> Is there some kind of psychological feeling, a feel of Good or Evil?


Planar traits can certainly make you feel the differences, as well as the general vibe and atmosphere of the place - Bytopia is likely to be warm earth, Acheron likely to be gray and cold, Nidavellir preternaturally dark and sparkly.




> How can one quickly and harmlessly understand which Plane he is on?


Buy a _mimir_, a handy dandy talking skull that serves as your own mini-Wikipedia of the planes. Provided its enchantment recognizes where you are, it'll tell you - though there are places where it will fail, and one never knows why. A _sextant of the planes_ can provide information about the plane, but doesn't specifically name it. Divination spells will also be of use. Usually.

----------


## Tzardok

Does anybody know of a conversion of mimirs to 3.5?

----------


## Edreyn

I really like this thread! When it comes to Planes, there is always something to discuss. And I enjoy reading about it much.

Now I have a question about what's called "Geas" and how it might influence afterlife. This time it's based on even older game Baldur's Gate 2. It uses 2nd edition rules and setting. At one stage of this game, one of NPCs betrays the hero, saying that he can't help it, because he is under geas. If he fails, he won't simply die, but also go to a "special hell built just for him".
He also, expecting a defeat, asks to bring his heart to temple of Ilmater, hoping it will give him peace in death. Also, he can't later be resurrected by any means.

So, questions based on this:
1) Can geas really "override" the very idea of Planes and afterlife?
2) And prevent resurrection, if geas victim failed?
3) Not in this specific game, but in theory, can such an horror be somehow neutralized?
4) This question is based on what I read in some old posts on other forums about this - bringing remains to a temple might give him a chance to talk to Ilmater "in person" and ask for help. But if all of the above is possible, shouldn't the curse prevent it too?

And, talking of Ilmater, a more humorous question: why Ilmater and Loviatar hate each other that much? One loves to torment and another to be tormented. In life, with cases like that, people usually form pairs and enjoy... well let's say non-standard sex and are in love or whatever such relation is called. Even Ilmater priests WANT to be beaten - and worshipers of Loviatar offer exactly this. Why the hatred? It's Yin Yang relation - opposite, but forming a whole.

----------


## Bohandas

> We know it had 18 planets surrounding a powerful sun known as Aeyenna, that it existed for millennia before breaking, and that some of the worlds found in it included Thoris, Hedriana, Elias, Asveleyn, Resanel, Ondora, BedevanSov, Ladria, and Colurranur. Living beings native to the sphere included the aboleths (by definition, though they escaped through their own methods), the Sh'tarrgh, the Lovokei, the Broul, the Kutalla, and the Juna. The source of this information mentions humans, but it should be noted that this was likely driven by perspective bias, as the person observing the past through mental contact with the Spelljammer was himself human.
> 
> That's about it. Of the things so named above, we know essentially nothing but their names. I should mention that there's only one source for this info and it's... bad.


Is the crystal sphere literally broken though? Or is it broken in some metaphorical way?

----------


## Tzardok

> So, questions based on this:
> 1) Can geas really "override" the very idea of Planes and afterlife?


Propably not. The description of geas, both in 2e and 3.5, doesn't include something like this. Propably something the caster invented to scare the victim more. On the other hand, I _could_ imagine something like that in a world ruled by Celtic deities (geas originally meant a special oath in Celtic mythology). The breaker of a voluntary "geas" could be consigned to a special hell, but in that case it wouldn't be a trait of the geas but a decision of Arawn.




> 2) And prevent resurrection, if geas victim failed?


Again, propably not. There are other spells that can steal a soul and make it unressurectible, but geas isn't one of them.




> 3) Not in this specific game, but in theory, can such an horror be somehow neutralized?


A geas can be broken with Break Enchantment or more powerful spells. If your soul is stolen and kept somewhere to keep you from resurecting, only Wish or Miracle can save you without somebody going to your prison and freeing you.




> 4) This question is based on what I read in some old posts on other forums about this - bringing remains to a temple might give him a chance to talk to Ilmater "in person" and ask for help. But if all of the above is possible, shouldn't the curse prevent it too?


Please keep in mind that I think all of this bunk: No, unless a god of higher divine rank is involved. Ilmater is a god.




> And, talking of Ilmater, a more humorous question: why Ilmater and Loviatar hate each other that much? One loves to torment and another to be tormented. In life, with cases like that, people usually form pairs and enjoy... well let's say non-standard sex and are in love or whatever such relation is called. Even Ilmater priests WANT to be beaten - and worshipers of Loviatar offer exactly this. Why the hatred? It's Yin Yang relation - opposite, but forming a whole.


Because Ilmater's shtick is easing the suffering of others by taking it onto himself. Ilmater would prefer it if no one suffered, but if someone _has_ to, it better be him. Loviatar on the other _needs_ other people to suffer to get her jollies.
But hey, if you want to write a fanfic about the forbidden romance of those two, I won't stop you.  :Small Tongue: 
And if you are already writing that, write me a fanfic about what ice queen Auril gets up to with her loveable rogue of a roommate Loki.  :Small Amused: 




> Is the crystal sphere literally broken though? Or is it broken in some metaphorical way?


It's literally broken. There are giant pieces of crystal sphere floating in the phlogiston and everything.

Edit: Also, repeating one of my earlier questions that may have been overlooked:

Do you have any conjecture on location and defenses of the copies of the Pact Primeval kept by the archons and the modrons?

----------


## Edreyn

> 4) This question is based on what I read in some old posts on other forums about this - bringing remains to a temple might give him a chance to talk to Ilmater "in person" and ask for help. But if all of the above is possible, shouldn't the curse prevent it too?
> 			
> 		
> 
> Please keep in mind that I think all of this bunk: No, unless a god of higher divine rank is involved. Ilmater is a god.


Yes, I understand that Ilmater being a deity can neutralize geas placed by mortal. What I meant - if geas prevents resurrection and transition to expected plane, can a *priest* of Ilmater actually manage to "connect" the soul of the dead with Ilmater? I mean, the soul must somehow talk to Ilmater to get his help. If geas prevents afterlife, theoretically it should also block the soul from any kind of talking with deities.




> Because Ilmater's shtick is easing the suffering of others by taking it onto himself. Ilmater would prefer it if no one suffered, but if someone has to, it better be him. Loviatar on the other needs other people to suffer to get her jollies.
> But hey, if you want to write a fanfic about the forbidden romance of those two, I won't stop you.
> And if you are already writing that, write me a fanfic about what ice queen Auril gets up to with her loveable rogue of a roommate Loki.


Interesting idea! Honestly I wasn't thinking to write about it, but once wanted to write a short story about evil goddesses, like Lloth and Takhisis, having a drunken party and arguing who is more evil, cruel and powerful, and then Lady of Pain coming in, furious, and flogging them all like little girls, with them running around and crying. Alas, I never actually wrote it.

----------


## Tzardok

> Yes, I understand that Ilmater being a deity can neutralize geas placed by mortal. What I meant - if geas prevents resurrection and transition to expected plane, can a *priest* of Ilmater actually manage to "connect" the soul of the dead with Ilmater? I mean, the soul must somehow talk to Ilmater to get his help. If geas prevents afterlife, theoretically it should also block the soul from any kind of talking with deities.


The soul doesn't need to talk to Ilmater himself. The way I imagine this it goes: "Yo, cleric, this poor sod was cursed to not reach his proper afterlife. I've got his heart here so you can properly identify him. Could you ask Ilmater to intervene? k thx bye."

----------


## afroakuma

> Does anybody know of a conversion of mimirs to 3.5?


I saw there was one on Planewalker but I can't get the page to load.




> I really like this thread! When it comes to Planes, there is always something to discuss. And I enjoy reading about it much.


I'm glad you're enjoying.




> Now I have a question about what's called "Geas" and how it might influence afterlife. This time it's based on even older game Baldur's Gate 2. It uses 2nd edition rules and setting. At one stage of this game, one of NPCs betrays the hero, saying that he can't help it, because he is under geas.


Yep, I've played it. Good game.




> 1) Can geas really "override" the very idea of Planes and afterlife?


Oh absolutely not. It should be noted that he's not a caster himself and is not speaking accurately of the nature of the magic binding him. A _geas_ can make you plenty miserable, but instant death with no resurrection? Nyet.




> 2) And prevent resurrection, if geas victim failed?


Hard no.




> 3) Not in this specific game, but in theory, can such an horror be somehow neutralized?


I was gonna say, there *is* a loophole in that specific game  :Small Tongue:  but let's not make this afroakuma's video game tips and tricks thread.

It's important to note that Irenicus is a vastly powerful wizard with a lot of specific knowledge on the nature of and manipulation of souls and connections to the divine. His exact methods are almost certainly *considerably* beyond a mere _geas_ spell.




> 4) This question is based on what I read in some old posts on other forums about this - bringing remains to a temple might give him a chance to talk to Ilmater "in person" and ask for help. But if all of the above is possible, shouldn't the curse prevent it too?


It's possible that Irenicus's curse occludes the attention of Ilmater from this NPC's suffering - but his spell would be insufficient on its own to block Ilmater's perception of events in one of his own temples. Even if it could, Ilmater would notice the sudden "blind spot" and focus in on it.




> And, talking of Ilmater, a more humorous question: why Ilmater and Loviatar hate each other that much?


Ilmater despises those who cause unnecessary pain, Loviatar those who provide mercy and relief. Neither of them would enjoy hanging out - Ilmater would do it so that Loviatar would hurt him *and not others*, which would annoy her to no end because he would be achieving his goals and she would want to thwart that.




> Is the crystal sphere literally broken though? Or is it broken in some metaphorical way?


Quite literally shattered - or rather, it was. I'd have to recheck a really bad novel but I think it's actually sealed up again now - and well and truly *sealed*.




> Do you have any conjecture on location and defenses of the copies of the Pact Primeval kept by the archons and the modrons?


No.  :Small Tongue: 

The archons' copy is probably held in Yetsirah by Sealtiel. The modrons' is likely kept in a secure vault within the Labyrinthine Portal.

----------


## Bohandas

> I really like this thread! When it comes to Planes, there is always something to discuss. And I enjoy reading about it much.
> 
> Now I have a question about what's called "Geas" and how it might influence afterlife. This time it's based on even older game Baldur's Gate 2. It uses 2nd edition rules and setting. At one stage of this game, one of NPCs betrays the hero, saying that he can't help it, because he is under geas. If he fails, he won't simply die, but also go to a "special hell built just for him".


What was the exact wording of the entire exchange? Is death explicitly mentioned? I don't think that _geas_ can override afterlife directly, but it _could_ compel the victim to travel physically to Hell.

(and compare the short story _The Seven Geases_ by Clark Ashton Smith, in which a series of geases placed on the protagonist by various beings compel him to travel deeper and deeper into the underworld)

EDIT:
It could be a contingent version of the spell _[url=https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/damnation.htm]Damnation[/url_

----------


## Batcathat

> What was the exact wording of the entire exchange? Is death explicitly mentioned? I don't think that _geas_ can override afterlife directly, but it _could_ compel the victim to travel physically to Hell.


I don't remember the specific wording (although I've played Baldur's Gate 2 enough to know most of it by heart, I tend to avoid recruiting the companion I know will be lost halfway through the game most of the time) but it is specifically mentioned that he'll suffer in the afterlife if you don't do the quest to prevent it.

----------


## Edreyn

About spell placed on Yoshimo that he calls "geas": what it CAN really be, so powerful to affect afterlife?

----------


## Tzardok

Propably some variant of Trap the Soul or Bind to Hell, a 5th level cleric spell from Fiendish Codex 2. Really, messing with afterlifes is kinda easy; use _create undead_ and you keep a soul from going where it's supposed to, instead trapping it inside a rotting body.

----------


## afroakuma

> It could be a contingent version of the spell _[url=https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/damnation.htm]Damnation[/url_


Irenicus has some serious gas under him, but not that much. It'll be something 9th level or lower. 




> About spell placed on Yoshimo that he calls "geas": what it CAN really be, so powerful to affect afterlife?


It's not exactly hard to do that, provided you go about it in a particular way. A thinaun weapon could stop your soul from getting to its eternal reward, and a fiend of possession can get you to sign your soul over to the Lower Planes without needing to be within spitting distance of epic levels. It's quite likely that it's a custom magical effect (or multiple) designed by Irenicus, and it's also highly likely that it was something Yoshimo had to consent to in some way - since if Irenicus could just fling that spell around on anyone he'd probably have tried it out on Jaheira, Minsc, or even the player character. I suspect it was a kind of "deal with the devil" scenario for Yoshimo, who did not know what Irenicus would "charge" for his services.

----------


## Tzardok

Any idea what effects the reality wrinkle of a modron, a slaad or a rilmani in Ravenloft would have? Would it be better to design a single kind of wrinkle for morally neutral outsiders, or is the alignment with Law and Chaos impactful enough to design a Lawful wrinkle and a Chaotic wrinkle to round out the existing Evil and Good wrinkles?

----------


## Naanomi

Do we have any examples of Sigil/Demiplane of Dread interaction?  The Mist yoinking people from the streets of Sigil, or a door in a Barovian tavern bathroom leading to the Hive Ward, etc?

----------


## Tzardok

I think Afro mentioned that before in an earlier thread. Essentially there's always a door between Sigil and the Demiplane, but propably not more than one at once; and the Mists _can_ take people from Sigil, but they generally don't, and the Lady can keep them out whenever she wants.

Edit: Incidentally, here is a thread about shifting a layer of the Abyss to the Material.  :Small Eek:  Let's ignore wether it's a good idea; is it even possible?

----------


## Bohandas

> Do we have any examples of Sigil/Demiplane of Dread interaction?  The Mist yoinking people from the streets of Sigil, or a door in a Barovian tavern bathroom leading to the Hive Ward, etc?


There was the module _Die Vecna Die_ where Vecna used some kind of ultra-powerful magic ritual to force his way through both places' barriers

----------


## Naanomi

> There was the module _Die Vecna Die_ where Vecna used some kind of ultra-powerful magic ritual to force his way through both places' barriers


It was a bit more involved than that, but I was thinking more... Natural (or what amounts for that given the context) travel methods

----------


## Bohandas

Is there a master list anywhere of crazy stuff that Zagyg canonically did as mayor of Greyhawk? 

I remember reading four specific things (him attending city council meetings with an entourage of freakish monsters, a poorly worded indecency law under which anyone transporting poultry over a bridge could be arrested for "fondling a duck", a plan for use of dangerous unstable magical building materials in civic projects, and the giant Mario-64 style slide under castle Greyhawk that ran all the way to the other side of the planet) but I'm sure there must be others that I've missed

----------


## Thurbane

I have an "other oddities" question.

Is much known about Death Giants? Is there any fluff outside of MM3? Any idea if there are biologically immortal, or if now, what their lifespans might be?

If there's nothing printed, happy with some headcanon.

I'm looking for them to be one of the factions/powers in an upcoming campaign...

----------


## Tzardok

> Is much known about Dearth Giants?


The only thing I know is that there is a dearth of information about them.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Laughing Dog

So out of curiosity, are there any planes (or planar locations, demiplanes, etc.) that are insanity themed?  Like the Shivering Isles from TES or perhaps Wonderland (of Alice in Wonderland).  Just not the Far Realms or Limbo.  A 'it runs on logic, but not our logic' type of location.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> So out of curiosity, are there any planes (or planar locations, demiplanes, etc.) that are insanity themed?  Like the Shivering Isles from TES or perhaps Wonderland (of Alice in Wonderland).  Just not the Far Realms or Limbo.  A 'it runs on logic, but not our logic' type of location.


I'd say the Supreme Throne of Cyric and the Court of Illusions of Leira are close to what you're looking for. Yes, they are located inside Limbo, but they are divine realms specifically designed to drive travelers mad as they go through it. So it's not as purely chaotic as Limbo itself, since there is a purpose, but definitely insanity-themed. 

But the closest you may find from something like the wonderland is simply the feywild, with everybody in it considering it "normal", but in fact the place is quite incomprehensible, with chaotic distances (going from A to B may be longer than going from B to A) and time.

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## Tzardok

> But the closest you may find from something like the wonderland is simply the feywild, with everybody in it considering it "normal", but in fact the place is quite incomprehensible, with chaotic distances (going from A to B may be longer than going from B to A) and time.


Please don't bring that stuff into a pre-4e thread.




> So out of curiosity, are there any planes (or planar locations, demiplanes, etc.) that are insanity themed?  Like the Shivering Isles from TES or perhaps Wonderland (of Alice in Wonderland).  Just not the Far Realms or Limbo.  A 'it runs on logic, but not our logic' type of location.


I vaguely remember an Alice in Wonderland themed adventure back in... 1e, I think. I think it took place in a demiplane or alternate Prime. I also remember a Wonderland inspired demiplane being mentioned on the Planewalker website, but I can't remember wether it was canonical or home-brewed.

Generally I would say "a logic, but not the one you are used to" describes most Outer Planes.

----------


## Eldan

> So out of curiosity, are there any planes (or planar locations, demiplanes, etc.) that are insanity themed?  Like the Shivering Isles from TES or perhaps Wonderland (of Alice in Wonderland).  Just not the Far Realms or Limbo.  A 'it runs on logic, but not our logic' type of location.


Pandemonium, all of it. Some layers of the Abyss. Depending on how far you define "insanity", the Grey Wastes (depression, anhedonia, psychopathy), Acheron (trauma, anxiety, PTSD, brainwashing), the Demiplane of Dread, Faerie... 

Really, for "it runs on logic, just not our logic" is kind of all the planes, in Planescape. In Elysium, how long a journey takes, depends on how many people you help along the way. The Beastlands turn you into an animal. In Ysgard, the petitioners are resurrected each time they die in battle. In the Outlands, the geography doesn't make the slightest amount of sense and distances stretch and shrink all the time. Sigil is infinitely far up on the Spire, but you can see it from everywhere.

----------


## Khedrac

> I vaguely remember an Alice in Wonderland themed adventure back in... 1e, I think. I think it took place in a demiplane or alternate Prime. I also remember a Wonderland inspired demiplane being mentioned on the Planewalker website, but I can't remember wether it was canonical or home-brewed.


For AD&D (1st Ed) EX1 Dungeonland and EX2 The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror were Lewis Carroll-inspired adventures written by Gary Gygax set in a demi-plane accessible from within Castle Greyhawk.  (Whether they are accessible from elsewhere is unknown).  They were not particulalrly linked to insanity.
For BECM D&D ST1 Up the Garden Path was also a Lewis Carroll-inspired adventure produced in a big hurry by TSR UK for the 1986 Garden Festival and though valuable because very rare (most copies were pulped) it is also regarded as a pretty poor adventure (unusual for TSR UK) bu I know no more about it.

It's arguable that a lot of the Demiplanes of Dread (Ravenloft) link to Insanity.

----------


## Naanomi

Dreamscapes or the like probably can end up that way as well

----------


## Bohandas

> Pandemonium, all of it. Some layers of the Abyss. Depending on how far you define "insanity", the Grey Wastes (depression, anhedonia, psychopathy), Acheron (trauma, anxiety, PTSD, brainwashing), the Demiplane of Dread, Faerie...


Also the River Styx (amnesia), and Elysium (opioid addiction)

But I don't think this is what the asker meant

In terms of "it runs on logic but not our logic", a lot of the lawful planes seem to have features based on complicated and esoteric design schemes that only the natives understand, including the Labrynthine Portal Network on Mechanus, and the layout of the City of Dis

EDIT:

Also the conditions for climbing Mount Celestia, which rely more on a state of mind than on actual mountaineering

----------


## afroakuma

> Any idea what effects the reality wrinkle of a modron, a slaad or a rilmani in Ravenloft would have? Would it be better to design a single kind of wrinkle for morally neutral outsiders, or is the alignment with Law and Chaos impactful enough to design a Lawful wrinkle and a Chaotic wrinkle to round out the existing Evil and Good wrinkles?


It's debatable whether they'd even produce one, since as far as I can recall, we've only really seen them produced by creatures of a *moral* bent, not an *ethical* one. Reality wrinkles also don't really do a ton on their own; it's more about what the bearer chooses to do with it. Isolde's is unusual in that she "leaks" a non-deliberate effect. That said, taking law, neutrality, and chaos and dragging them through a gothic horror lens...

A modron in the Demiplane of Dread would be all but unrecognizable as a physical and living being, its very nature being a kind of blinding "anti-ness" that makes you want to look away from the cosmic truth and order at the center - a cosmic truth and order that your very soul fears you have no part in. Within its reality wrinkle, the raw and bare truth and the law of the Land are made painfully clear - not only would shapeshifters be forced into their true forms, but the white lies that keep society moving would fail; domain boundaries would solidify as vast chasms of darkness; and the venal desires and passions that people try to keep hidden in order to interact with one another would be drawn to the fore like pus from a wound, ironically resulting in more chaos. Whatever the nature of the Land, it would become moreso. The Dark Powers do not want modrons in the Demiplane of Dread. They are like an infection, where even the least of them represents a pinprick which invites seething toxicity. Neither does Primus have any interest in the demiplane - he knows enough about what it is to know he's quite done with the whole idea, and modrons are instructed to avoid the place. The freezing up of the boundaries of what is, what might be, and what is not would cause the grays of the plane to become slight whites and profound blacks, a separation that would profoundly shatter anyplace it went. Needless to say, the Dark Powers expel the little nitwits whenever one happens into the plane, and spells which call to Mechanus for summoning have a habit of vanishing.

A slaad in the Demiplane of Dread would behave in much the same manner as a fiend - unrestrained and encouraged to indulge in dark pleasures. The bubble around a slaad, however, would be something disturbing beyond measure - a breakdown of the fabric of the demiplane that causes borders to shift and convulse, the rules of the domain to sputter and reverse and warp and seize up the unwary, changing them as the very warp and weft of the plane wends through them. At the heart of this bubbling mess is a predatory and infectious agent of pure chaos, like a colossal finger smudging oil paints together. In the wake of the distortion, the changes - whether temporary or permanent - bring their own sort of horror, for the demiplane and its populace are caught up in dream logic like that of the Nightmare Lands, only to a level so profound and unpredictable that even an Abber Nomad would not be able to safely navigate it. In the Demiplane of Dread, slaad would be treated as equivalent to "evil" beings for the purpose of holy powers, for what bends and melts around them is the substance of evil itself. Obviously the Dark Powers don't really like having a slaad around either, though they're less offensive than modrons and celestials. Barely.

If you want to get even more offensive, though, get a rilmani. Rilmani know *things* about the multiverse that make them persona non grata in the Demiplane of Dread, and even the ignorant plumachs still cause a strange distortion of its functions, for rilmani *actively* want to bring balance, and their conscious and subconscious manipulation of their reality wrinkle would cause the Mists to converge and swirl about, eventually creating a maelstrom that can sweep up the unwary, dragging them away from the Land. It may snatch up and consume or relocate those the Dark Powers never had any intention of moving - a rebalancing taking place without their approval, a cosmic neutrality trying to invade the imbalanced pocket world they have so carefully constructed. A rilmani is not enough to break a darklord out of their prison, but much like Harbinger House to the Lady of Pain, a rilmani creates a temporary "blind spot" in the Dark Powers' awareness - one they will hasten to expel before the native entities of the Mists start crawling forth to do it themselves.

Essentially, the Dark Powers' distaste for outsiders, from least to most offensive, runs fiends, slaad, celestials, modrons, rilmani. And no, do not ask about other types of outsiders, or I shall chase you around with a spatula.




> Do we have any examples of Sigil/Demiplane of Dread interaction?  The Mist yoinking people from the streets of Sigil, or a door in a Barovian tavern bathroom leading to the Hive Ward, etc?


We don't, but we know it can grab you out of Sigil. The Lady has no issues with letting the Dark Powers take things *out* of her city. Mind you, it's unlikely the kind of tormented and self-absorbed souls that the Demiplane of Dread collects would be in Sigil in the first place.




> Edit: Incidentally, here is a thread about shifting a layer of the Abyss to the Material.  Let's ignore wether it's a good idea; is it even possible?


No, it's not possible, you can't shift an infinity into what would fundamentally be a finite space (a crystal sphere). Even attempting to do so is likely to devour the entire sphere's contents, if you could make a reasonable attempt at it.




> Is there a master list anywhere of crazy stuff that Zagyg canonically did as mayor of Greyhawk?


I'm not aware of one. It might exist, but if it does, some fan probably assembled it together.




> Is much known about Death Giants? Is there any fluff outside of MM3?


Not prior to 4E, and I don't do 4E.




> Any idea if there are biologically immortal, or if now, what their lifespans might be?


My suspicion is that, given that the other two giants in the same book have maximum lifespans outlined while death giants do not, death giants are biologically immortal.




> If there's nothing printed, happy with some headcanon.


Sounds good, what are you looking for? Lay out some questions, I'll get it done for you.




> So out of curiosity, are there any planes (or planar locations, demiplanes, etc.) that are insanity themed?  Like the Shivering Isles from TES or perhaps Wonderland (of Alice in Wonderland).  Just not the Far Realms or Limbo.  A 'it runs on logic, but not our logic' type of location.


As others have noted above, there are indeed strange demiplanes that do in fact ape Alice in Wonderland/Through the Looking Glass.

----------


## Bohandas

[QUOTE=afroakuma;25337072]No, it's not possible, you can't shift an infinity into what would fundamentally be a finite space (a crystal sphere). Even attempting to do so is likely to devour the entire sphere's contents, if you could make a reasonable attempt at it.

Two issues here

First and foremost, some abyssal layers are finite

Secondly, you can bound an infinite volume in a finite region if the space becomes progressively more distorted the further you go inward from the outer boundry (similar to Maurits C Escher's paintings _Snakes_, _Development II_, and _Development III_

*Spoiler*
Show










> I'm not aware of one. It might exist, but if it does, some fan probably assembled it together.


Do you personally onow of any major incidents that I left out of my list

----------


## Tzardok

Thank you for your evocative answer.




> A modron in the Demiplane of Dread would be all but unrecognizable as a physical and living being, its very nature being a kind of blinding "anti-ness" that makes you want to look away from the cosmic truth and order at the center - a cosmic truth and order that your very soul fears you have no part in. Within its reality wrinkle, the raw and bare truth and the law of the Land are made painfully clear - not only would shapeshifters be forced into their true forms, but the white lies that keep society moving would fail; domain boundaries would solidify as vast chasms of darkness; and the venal desires and passions that people try to keep hidden in order to interact with one another would be drawn to the fore like pus from a wound, ironically resulting in more chaos. Whatever the nature of the Land, it would become moreso. The Dark Powers do not want modrons in the Demiplane of Dread. They are like an infection, where even the least of them represents a pinprick which invites seething toxicity. Neither does Primus have any interest in the demiplane - he knows enough about what it is to know he's quite done with the whole idea, and modrons are instructed to avoid the place. The freezing up of the boundaries of what is, what might be, and what is not would cause the grays of the plane to become slight whites and profound blacks, a separation that would profoundly shatter anyplace it went. Needless to say, the Dark Powers expel the little nitwits whenever one happens into the plane, and spells which call to Mechanus for summoning have a habit of vanishing.


So, nothing that should be caused by a Lawful Neutral 20th-level monk?  :Small Wink:  I think I can work with that.




> A slaad in the Demiplane of Dread would behave in much the same manner as a fiend - unrestrained and encouraged to indulge in dark pleasures. The bubble around a slaad, however, would be something disturbing beyond measure - a breakdown of the fabric of the demiplane that causes borders to shift and convulse, the rules of the domain to sputter and reverse and warp and seize up the unwary, changing them as the very warp and weft of the plane wends through them. At the heart of this bubbling mess is a predatory and infectious agent of pure chaos, like a colossal finger smudging oil paints together. In the wake of the distortion, the changes - whether temporary or permanent - bring their own sort of horror, for the demiplane and its populace are caught up in dream logic like that of the Nightmare Lands, only to a level so profound and unpredictable that even an Abber Nomad would not be able to safely navigate it. In the Demiplane of Dread, slaad would be treated as equivalent to "evil" beings for the purpose of holy powers, for what bends and melts around them is the substance of evil itself. Obviously the Dark Powers don't really like having a slaad around either, though they're less offensive than modrons and celestials. Barely.
> 
> If you want to get even more offensive, though, get a rilmani. Rilmani know *things* about the multiverse that make them persona non grata in the Demiplane of Dread, and even the ignorant plumachs still cause a strange distortion of its functions, for rilmani *actively* want to bring balance, and their conscious and subconscious manipulation of their reality wrinkle would cause the Mists to converge and swirl about, eventually creating a maelstrom that can sweep up the unwary, dragging them away from the Land. It may snatch up and consume or relocate those the Dark Powers never had any intention of moving - a rebalancing taking place without their approval, a cosmic neutrality trying to invade the imbalanced pocket world they have so carefully constructed. A rilmani is not enough to break a darklord out of their prison, but much like Harbinger House to the Lady of Pain, a rilmani creates a temporary "blind spot" in the Dark Powers' awareness - one they will hasten to expel before the native entities of the Mists start crawling forth to do it themselves.


Hmm, from that I would surmise that slaads could make power rites and gain from them powers like fiends do, while modrons and rilmani are too offensive to even attempt power rites, leaving celestials awkwardly in the middle.




> Essentially, the Dark Powers' distaste for outsiders, from least to most offensive, runs fiends, slaad, celestials, modrons, rilmani. And no, do not ask about other types of outsiders, or I shall chase you around with a spatula.


Wasn't planing on it. I mean, we've got Good, Evil, Law, Chaos and Neutrality. What else would there _be_ to ask about? Genies?  :Small Confused:  Forget it. Logically those shouldn't harm the demiplane as they aren't beings of belief. The demiplane propably harms them more.




> Sounds good, what are you looking for? Lay out some questions, I'll get it done for you.


I'd like to throw in a question: What entity was it that the death giants sold their souls to?

----------


## enderlord99

> What else would there _be_ to ask about?


Kamarel, technically.

----------


## Tzardok

> Kamarel, technically.


Propably doesn't differ that much from the Rilmani one. It's still neutrality, but neutrality through self-isolation, so they still get the mist maelstrom except without the balancing factor. Propably exiles the kamarel deep into the Mists and then either rips him apart or expels him. A self-solving problem for once.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Eldan

> Two issues here
> 
> First and foremost, some abyssal layers are finite
> 
> Secondly, you can bound an infinite volume in a finite region if the space becomes progressively more distorted the further you go inward from the outer boundry (similar to Maurits C Escher's paintings _Snakes_, _Development II_, and _Development III_
> 
> [...]


Ah, yes. Because what could possibly go wrong with fractally folding infinite demonic energies into the prime.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Thurbane

> Sounds good, what are you looking for? Lay out some questions, I'll get it done for you.


Hmm, OK, let's see...

What might have been the threat that threatened their empire with destruction, which lead to them to trade their souls?

Who or what did they trade their souls to?

Do they have allegiance, or pay lip service, to any particular higher power(s)? There is some mention that they still pay homage to giantish deities, but also that they worship "dark and alien" deities.

What kind of society would they have, what kind of power structure? Democracy, dictatorship, oligarchy etc? And would that have been a different society pre-trading their souls?

What types of creatures are they likely to employ to be their intermediaries with the world of men and other civilised humanoids?

...and in regards to my game: the other factions vying for the same slot in a power vacuum are likely to be the yuan-ti, a cult of Dissipater, a cult of Iuz, and an ancient lich and his network of underlings (the lich operates very much behind the scenes, and mainly uses stealth, subterfuge and assassination to achieve his ends). Are there any of these the death giants are likely to ally with, or be particularly opposed to?

----------


## afroakuma

> Do you personally onow of any major incidents that I left out of my list


I personally take great pains not to read Greyhawk's boring excuse for lore when I don't have to, so no, I do not. Whatever madcap nonsense Gygax's ludicrous self-insert got up to is of zero interest to me beyond what I am asked to research. He probably, I dunno, appointed a kangaroo as provost of Greyhawk University. Dictated that all public houses must be constructed in a helical shape. Filled the city fountains with ochre jelly as a cleanup initiative.




> So, nothing that should be caused by a Lawful Neutral 20th-level monk?  I think I can work with that.


If you're asking what distortion a level 20 monk would cause, that's a different question entirely. Don't apply one to the other. Honestly, a monk who attains 20th level in the Demiplane of Dread probably gets a shadowy doppelgänger of themselves stalking them, a living embodiment of all the denied parts of the self that the monk has restricted in order to adhere to their vows and higher principles. Shedding mortality just means that it's now out there to haunt you, because that's what the Gothic tropes would want - sort of Jekyll and Hyde on steroids.




> Hmm, from that I would surmise that slaads could make power rites and gain from them powers like fiends do, while modrons and rilmani are too offensive to even attempt power rites, leaving celestials awkwardly in the middle.


I would say no, slaad cannot make power rites - the commitment is what would drive them off, that and the fact that they lack the inherent evil to draw the Land into themselves. The exception, of course, would be a death slaad.




> Wasn't planing on it. I mean, we've got Good, Evil, Law, Chaos and Neutrality. What else would there _be_ to ask about?


It's *you*, if anyone was going to ask about an obscure noodly outsider...  :Small Tongue: 




> I'd like to throw in a question: What entity was it that the death giants sold their souls to?


Like he wasn't going to ask that.  :Small Tongue: 




> Ah, yes. Because what could possibly go wrong with fractally folding infinite demonic energies into the prime.


That's how afroakumas are made.

Also, Happy New Year sir!




> Hmm, OK, let's see...
> 
> What might have been the threat that threatened their empire with destruction, which lead to them to trade their souls?


Well, if you take the MMIII's suggestions for Eberron or Faerûn at face value, it would have been the dragons and the phaerimm, respectively, but neither of those feels appropriately canonical. I've been over a number of options, and the most logical one, assuming we're not just making something up wholecloth (because I already had to do that once, see below), would be the approach of Atropus, the World Born DeadEE. Their powers protect them from the undead and the worst of Atropus's abilities, but of course it's a Pyrrhic victory - Atropus still destroyed their world and all non-death giant creatures on it, forcing them to use powerful _gates_ to leave their now-dead planet behind and flee to other worlds.




> Who or what did they trade their souls to?


And here's where we get into making things up wholecloth. While it's reasonable to ascribe the deal to a Lord of the Nine, or maybe Orcus, or a powerful and particularly sadistic yugoloth... or dread Tharizdun, or even Shiva, none feels 100% right. The death giants surrendered their souls, collectively, in exchange for power - including the power to draw more souls to themselves and exploit them. Fiends would want those souls funnelled their way, or corrupted, not merely kept in a swirling fog on the Prime. Tharizdun... doesn't care about anything enough to strike a shady contract. Shiva just isn't that much of a jerk - sure, he might be a god of destruction whose divine realm is a literal vortex of annihilation, but he's an alright guy doing a job.

No, the death giants bound their souls to something in exchange for power - and that means vestiges. Allow me to introduce an ancient vestige from the Negative Energy Plane, a being of nihilism and entropy whose legend was too successful for his own good. This is *Ur, Worm of Night and Nothing*, a powerful entity of entropy who fell victim to paradoxical godhood and soul-starvation and ended up becoming a vestige. Ur made a massive and unprecedented collective pact with the people who became the death giants, who display his signs constantly. The power of this collective pact has resulted in Ur being partially pulled back from the Near Realm into the Great Wheel, but he is incapable of fully manifesting himself. With every new pact or soul that is devoured, he inches that tiiiiny hair closer to full reality (note that this method only worked for Ur, as we've discussed previously about each vestige needing their own unique way of restoring). Ur's Negative Energy powers instilled the death giants with everything they needed to survive Atropus - survive, but not thrive. No, not that at all. They were instead empowered with abilities that would do duck-all against the World Born Dead. Ur doesn't care. That's ur problem, not Ur problem.




> Do they have allegiance, or pay lip service, to any particular higher power(s)? There is some mention that they still pay homage to giantish deities, but also that they worship "dark and alien" deities.


They still recognize the giant pantheon, but when even Memnor won't look twice at you... needless to say they don't get spells from any of the Ordning or even their traditional enemies the interlopers and the demon lords. No, the death giants deal with the kind of deities who do not get named. The Dark God. The Patient One. The Elder Elemental Eye. Demon princes and obscure demon lords. Gods of the undead, or blasphemous gods of profound cruelty or corruption such as Panzuriel, Moander, and so on. And yes, when I say the Dark God, I mean Tharizdun. I should note this isn't an "across the race this is the pantheon" kind of thing, it's "a lone death giant cleric of X has collected others to form a cult dedicated to X." Most death giants still remember the Ordning and miss being recognized by their own gods.




> What kind of society would they have, what kind of power structure? Democracy, dictatorship, oligarchy etc? And would that have been a different society pre-trading their souls?


For the most part, death giant society... isn't one. You have violent and cruel gangs seizing territory and combating one another. It's only the cult leaders who would be able to establish larger social groups, and power would be centralized in clerics of ancient and terrible dark powers and their immediate confidants. As neutral evil beings with demonstrated selfishness (save ourselves, not our world!), death giants' religiosity would still be primarily self-serving and driven by fear, rather than the kind of zeal that can create religious police or the kind of wanton fanaticism that can create sectarian violence. Collection of too many souls makes you wealthy but also a logical target for assassination - so whosoever has the most (and this would likely extend to material wealth as well) is always under the most threat.




> What types of creatures are they likely to employ to be their intermediaries with the world of men and other civilised humanoids?


Undead or constructs, since they're all kind of obsessed with collecting souls... their cruel powers might also attract the interest of vasharansBoVD, and of course the kinds of frightening creatures that worship the same alien gods as they (or might want to try converting death nights to those gods), so avolakias and psurlons for example; might even use their desert ties to send asherati, bhukas, or harssafs. 




> ...and in regards to my game: the other factions vying for the same slot in a power vacuum are likely to be the yuan-ti, a cult of Dissipater


A cult of whom? Did Dispater, Lord of the Second, somehow evaporate?  :Small Big Grin: 




> a cult of Iuz, and an ancient lich and his network of underlings (the lich operates very much behind the scenes, and mainly uses stealth, subterfuge and assassination to achieve his ends). Are there any of these the death giants are likely to ally with, or be particularly opposed to?


I would surmise most likely the lich, since they would be immune to its undead. Yuan-ti want things the death giants cannot possibly profit from and would definitely try to transform one. Dispater wants power for Hell and can't bargain with the death giants effectively (he can't offer to release their souls). The cult of Iuz would likely annoy them the most because Iuz wants territory and control and the death giants don't want to cede either (although you may find individual gangs betraying the rest  by serving any of these groups). 

Hope that helps!

----------


## Tzardok

> If you're asking what distortion a level 20 monk would cause, that's a different question entirely. Don't apply one to the other. Honestly, a monk who attains 20th level in the Demiplane of Dread probably gets a shadowy doppelgänger of themselves stalking them, a living embodiment of all the denied parts of the self that the monk has restricted in order to adhere to their vows and higher principles. Shedding mortality just means that it's now out there to haunt you, because that's what the Gothic tropes would want - sort of Jekyll and Hyde on steroids.


Ah, thank you. I kind of assumed that the distortion is based solely only alignment, without care for the kind of being that causes it. In that case, I'd like to ask a last question in that line: You see, I've been writing how class features of non-core classes would be changed in Ravenloft (partly based on your posts from the last thread ). Warlocks gain a fiend-like reality wrinkle, but there's another class with one: the incarnate. So I'd like to ask you, what would be most appropriate for them? Something like the respective alignment's outsiders, because of their alignemental focus, or something like the monk.




> It's *you*, if anyone was going to ask about an obscure noodly outsider...


Noodly outsiders? I don't know any, but they would propably live in Dothion. It's, after all, described as pasta-ral.  :Small Big Grin: 




> No, the death giants bound their souls to something in exchange for power - and that means vestiges. Allow me to introduce an ancient vestige from the Negative Energy Plane, a being of nihilism and entropy whose legend was too successful for his own good. This is *Ur, Worm of Night and Nothing*, a powerful entity of entropy who fell victim to paradoxical godhood and soul-starvation and ended up becoming a vestige. Ur made a massive and unprecedented collective pact with the people who became the death giants, who display his signs constantly. The power of this collective pact has resulted in Ur being partially pulled back from the Near Realm into the Great Wheel, but he is incapable of fully manifesting himself. With every new pact or soul that is devoured, he inches that tiiiiny hair closer to full reality (note that this method only worked for Ur, as we've discussed previously about each vestige needing their own unique way of restoring). Ur's Negative Energy powers instilled the death giants with everything they needed to survive Atropus - survive, but not thrive. No, not that at all. They were instead empowered with abilities that would do duck-all against the World Born Dead. Ur doesn't care. That's ur problem, not Ur problem.


I feel inspired to stat that guy. Propably an epic vestige. Let's see wether something results from it.




> A cult of whom? Did Dispater, Lord of the Second, somehow evaporate?


Introducing Dissipater, the Iron Steam Duke.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Thurbane

> A cult of whom? Did Dispater, Lord of the Second, somehow evaporate?


Damn autocorrect strikes again!  :Small Tongue: 




> Hope that helps!


That is great headcanon, and will be very useful for my game.  :Small Smile: 




> I feel inspired to stat that guy. Propably an epic vestige. Let's see wether something results from it.


Please do! I, for one, would be very interested in this.

----------


## afroakuma

> Ah, thank you. I kind of assumed that the distortion is based solely only alignment, without care for the kind of being that causes it. In that case, I'd like to ask a last question in that line: You see, I've been writing how class features of non-core classes would be changed in Ravenloft (partly based on your posts from the last thread ). Warlocks gain a fiend-like reality wrinkle, but there's another class with one: the incarnate. So I'd like to ask you, what would be most appropriate for them? Something like the respective alignment's outsiders, because of their alignemental focus, or something like the monk.


If you recall what I said about incarnum specifically, incarnum in the Demiplane of Dread is a *bad idea* and becoming a perfect incarnation... at the very least I would say is a stupid, stupid, stupid idea. I never wanted to be tremendously definitive about how incarnum works in the Demiplane of Dread but one thing I can say with absolute certainty is that if you're a true incarnation, your alignment subtype becomes Evil regardless of your actual alignment. Binding the incarnum of *that place* to your very being could not possibly result in anything else - it's almost cognate to a fiend's power ritual. Even if you became a true incarnation elsewhere and then entered the Demiplane of Dread (in which case you are a *stupid stupid stupid* person, who voluntarily enters that place at 20th level?) the supply from which your body draws its powers would become rapidly contaminated.




> I feel inspired to stat that guy. Propably an epic vestige. Let's see wether something results from it.


Not to worry, my vestige guy and I are already on it. I needed a consult to make sure the chosen epithet was a decent one. Tzardok if you want to talk about the mythological roots of my choice, hit me in PM, just to make sure we don't run afoul of that rule...




> That is great headcanon, and will be very useful for my game.


Glad to hear it!  :Small Smile:

----------


## Alea

To what extent would totemic incarnum be problematic? Totemists are already kind of picking and choosing what they are emulating from the beasts they shape soulmelds after, and while a few of them are aligned, that alignment doesnt really influence the totemist particularly anyway. The soulmelds might become more evil, perhaps taking after similar (ish) Ravenloft beasts rather than the Material (mostly) beasts totemists are used to, which would affect the precise behavior of the soulmelds, but that isnt necessarily dire. The only aligned totemist soulmelds are _lamassu mantle_, _lamia belt_, and _shedu crown_, and only the _lamassu mantle_ actually has an aligned effect, though the _lamia belt_ does suggest some intrusive evil thoughts (which is unique among soulmelds, as far as I can tell; none of the rest indicate that they affect ones thoughts, even the aligned ones). So would the unaligned soulmelds have the same issues? Or would they be replaced by evil-aligned ones? And even if they were, would that matter? It does for the _lamia belt_ kinda-sorta maybe, but not for any others, which would suggest that even if your soulmelds became evil it wouldnt necessarily matter very much, unless they all became like the _lamia belt_or worse, since the intrusive thoughts of the _lamia belt_ sound pretty mild anyway.

----------


## porfi86

> And, talking of Ilmater, a more humorous question: why Ilmater and Loviatar hate each other that much? One loves to torment and another to be tormented. In life, with cases like that, people usually form pairs and enjoy... well let's say non-standard sex and are in love or whatever such relation is called. Even Ilmater priests WANT to be beaten - and worshipers of Loviatar offer exactly this. Why the hatred? It's Yin Yang relation - opposite, but forming a whole.


I joined this forum after searching "ilmater loviatar yin yang".  I knew I couldn't be the only one who thought this way.  I've thought about this a lot, and even imagined a subcult or dissenting community of lore.  It goes something like this:

"At the height of Loviatar's prominence, her efforts and those of her followers were continually foiled by the followers of Ilmater. This angered her greatly, and in her rage, she set her sights on one of Ilmaters most notable followers, captured him for herself, and tortured him mercilessly.  Ilmater finally appeared and took his place, which was what Loviatar had intended all along.  

She relished in torturing him for days, but this was fine with Ilmater, as she was too distracted by him to bless any of her followers, giving the Ilmatari the upper hand in saving those being tortured.  All the while Loviatar laughing and taunting "You could end this suffering any time you want, but you are weak." When He saw that her hunger for inflicting pain could not be quelled, he caught her whip, stood up against her, subdued her, and tortured her in retribution.  As Loviatar is just as fond of receiving pain as she is of dealing it, this excited her greatly, and she eventually submitted to him.  

Thinking he had changed her, he forgave her acts and embraced her, and they loved each other just as passionately as they had fought.  But on the third day, he awoke and she was gone.  Her desire to give and receive pain had been temporarily satiated, and his followers were safe for a time.  Inflicting pain was not his natural way, and she knew that.  She would give him and his followers a repose, but eventually her lust for pain would return, starting the cycle over again."

Here in the New House of Loviatar we believe in the Yin-Yang relationship of Ilmater and Loviatar. In dealing pain to those who can benefit and or learn from it.  And receiving pain from those who need a safe outlet. Indeed the best way to know someone is to know them through suffering, submission, and domination. We welcome Ilmatari to stand in for any who suffer and do not begrudge them for it.  For they need us as we benefit from them.

----------


## Eldan

I'd assume the canon answer is that Loviatar isn't into "safe, sane and consensual".

----------


## Tzardok

> To what extent would totemic incarnum be problematic? Totemists are already kind of picking and choosing what they are emulating from the beasts they shape soulmelds after, and while a few of them are aligned, that alignment doesnt really influence the totemist particularly anyway. The soulmelds might become more evil, perhaps taking after similar (ish) Ravenloft beasts rather than the Material (mostly) beasts totemists are used to, which would affect the precise behavior of the soulmelds, but that isnt necessarily dire. The only aligned totemist soulmelds are _lamassu mantle_, _lamia belt_, and _shedu crown_, and only the _lamassu mantle_ actually has an aligned effect, though the _lamia belt_ does suggest some intrusive evil thoughts (which is unique among soulmelds, as far as I can tell; none of the rest indicate that they affect ones thoughts, even the aligned ones). So would the unaligned soulmelds have the same issues? Or would they be replaced by evil-aligned ones? And even if they were, would that matter? It does for the _lamia belt_ kinda-sorta maybe, but not for any others, which would suggest that even if your soulmelds became evil it wouldnt necessarily matter very much, unless they all became like the _lamia belt_or worse, since the intrusive thoughts of the _lamia belt_ sound pretty mild anyway.


My take on it is that soul melds in the Demiplane don't just take in incarnum, but whole souls from the Mists. Essentially, all soulmelds become intelligent items that try to cajole their user into, well, using them (or, in the case of the totemist, into indulging their most bestial instincts) with the single-minded obsession of ghosts.
Furthermore, if I understand it correctly, you manipulate incarnum with your own soul; it needs to flow through it to be meldshaped. This doesn't even take into account what happens when you put more of it into them (i.e. invest essentia). The beasts of Ravenloft are bestial and monstrous, and an totemist channels the nature of that through himself. That that won't have nice consequences seems clear.

----------


## Alea

> My take on it is that soul melds in the Demiplane don't just take in incarnum, but whole souls from the Mists. Essentially, all soulmelds become intelligent items that try to cajole their user into, well, using them (or, in the case of the totemist, into indulging their most bestial instincts) with the single-minded obsession of ghosts.
> Furthermore, if I understand it correctly, you manipulate incarnum with your own soul; it needs to flow through it to be meldshaped. This doesn't even take into account what happens when you put more of it into them (i.e. invest essentia). The beasts of Ravenloft are bestial and monstrous, and an totemist channels the nature of that through himself. That that won't have nice consequences seems clear.


Indeed, that does seem pretty dire. I notice that the totemist capstone (which I hadnt double-checked for my last post) also has the totemist temporarily link [their] body and soul to [their] totem chakra, which has shades of what the incarnate is doing (though perhaps not as strong).

----------


## Bohandas

What hapoens if a fire elemental enters the phlogiston?

----------


## enderlord99

> What hapoens if a fire elemental enters the phlogiston?


Kaboom happens

----------


## Bohandas

Probably, but is it instant, or more like a normal person entering the positive energy plane?

----------


## Silly Name

> Probably, but is it instant, or more like a normal person entering the positive energy plane?


I'd say instant. Producing the smallest flame while in the Flow causes the phlogiston to ignite and create an explosion comparable to Fireball, so the fire elemental would also, logically, create an instant explosion.

----------


## Caelestion

Summoned creatures cannot enter the phlogiston at all, as I recall, so it would have to somehow both arrive in and leave a crystal sphere under its own power for that to be even a consideration.

----------


## Tzardok

The more important question is: does this extinguish the elemental, or is it unharmed? The later would imply that it explodes again ... and again ... and again ...  :Small Amused:

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## Cieyrin

Fire elementals are immune to fire, so I don't think a fireball is going to extinguish it or even bother it. It's just going to continue to burn the phlogiston around it like the Gates of Hell. Probably looks like a small star.

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## Beni-Kujaku

> The more important question is: does this extinguish the elemental, or is it unharmed? The later would imply that it explodes again ... and again ... and again ...


Can you consume the phlogiston into explosions so that there is an area of pure vacuum? If a colony of fire elementals go for a journey on a spelljammer, could they position themselves around a sphere and "burn" all the phlogiston they touch so that none remains in the area? What would happen then?

----------


## Tzardok

> Can you consume the phlogiston into explosions so that there is an area of pure vacuum? If a colony of fire elementals go for a journey on a spelljammer, could they position themselves around a sphere and "burn" all the phlogiston they touch so that none remains in the area? What would happen then?


If it's truely a vacuum, you would create an area sucking in the phlogiston from around. Over short or long you would create a maelstrom that pulls on all the phlogiston on the plane, redirecting the Flow, disrupting all spacejamming and finally sucking in the infinite phlogiston into the Spacejammer equivalent of an exploding black hole. And this is how the Material will end. Not a whimper, but many consecutive bangs.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Bohandas

> Summoned creatures cannot enter the phlogiston at all, as I recall, so it would have to somehow both arrive in and leave a crystal sphere under its own power for that to be even a consideration.


such as _Planeshift_, _Planar Binding_, _Gate_, etc...

----------


## Caelestion

I'm fairly sure that you can't teleport into the phlogiston, but it's been a while since I read the list of things that absolutely won't work there.

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## Tzardok

> I'm fairly sure that you can't teleport into the phlogiston, but it's been a while since I read the list of things that absolutely won't work there.


*rolls eyes* Bohandas means gate in the elemental in wildspace and then transport into the phlogiston.

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## Naanomi

I think eventually it would reach an equilibrium, with phlogiston flowing into the inexhaustable flame source at a constant rate and burning off instantly... Slightly brightening the elemental but not explosions after the first few

----------


## Tzardok

Does the Demiplane of Dread have a connection to the Plane of Mirrors?

Edit: I think I already mentioned that I'm adapting class features of non-core classes to Ravenloft. I decided that shugenja need to to write their ofuda in a way that has to do with the corrupted version of their elemental focus (water shugenja need to make the ink from their blood, fire shugenja from the ashes of burnt flesh, earth shugenja from grave dirt and air shugenja need to write the ofuda inside the Mists). But some shugenja deal in Void in addition to the four classical elements. What would the corruption of Void be and/or how would that be best represented.?

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## Saint-Just

Was Elysium ever entrapping like Hades pre-3e? I am powering through the original Planescape material and that danger seems to be absent.

Also was there any other setting except FR with explicitly mentioned gunpowder or not!gunpowder like smokepowder?

----------


## afroakuma

> To what extent would totemic incarnum be problematic?


It's Ravenloft, everything is problematic.  :Small Tongue: 




> What hapoens if a fire elemental enters the phlogiston?


It explodes immediately, dealing 1d8 fire damage per HD in a 20 ft. radius. Its elemental nature is annihilated in the process, just as if it were killed.




> Does the Demiplane of Dread have a connection to the Plane of Mirrors?


I would expect so.




> Edit: I think I already mentioned that I'm adapting class features of non-core classes to Ravenloft. I decided that shugenja need to to write their ofuda in a way that has to do with the corrupted version of their elemental focus (water shugenja need to make the ink from their blood, fire shugenja from the ashes of burnt flesh, earth shugenja from grave dirt and air shugenja need to write the ofuda inside the Mists). But some shugenja deal in Void in addition to the four classical elements. What would the corruption of Void be and/or how would that be best represented.?


Void represents that which exists between the elements, shaping them by its presence outside them and absence within their expression and union. It is, in short, the essence of the fabric of the Demiplane of Dread. Its corruption is that which is born from the darkness, the pain, the sorrow, and the madness that infest the Demiplane - that which is born from suspicion of the other; apprehension toward the unknown; discomfort in the darkness; and the death of hope to the sword of bleak truth. It is fear. The ultimate clouding of the Void and cloaking of that which should be clear, for in the Demiplane of Dread fear is its own sort of terrible clarity and profound understanding. Sweat born of terror, blood curdled by screams, dead embers from torches and lanterns of those who got lost in the darkness, soil from under the boot of a panicked man in full flight for his life. To wield the Void in the Demiplane of Dread is difficult, for it requires clarity of mind. Thus is it more complex to prepare a void ofuda, the inks requiring the extraction of every element under the new moon.




> Was Elysium ever entrapping like Hades pre-3e? I am powering through the original Planescape material and that danger seems to be absent.


Not that I recall, nor does it show in _Planes of Conflict_, which does note the entrapping characteristic of Hades.




> Also was there any other setting except FR with explicitly mentioned gunpowder or not!gunpowder like smokepowder?


Spelljammer.

----------


## Khedrac

> Also was there any other setting except FR with explicitly mentioned gunpowder or not!gunpowder like smokepowder?


Also Red Steel in its AD&D port, (I cannot off-hand remember if the Mystara original had it, I don't think so).

----------


## Bohandas

> Also was there any other setting except FR with explicitly mentioned gunpowder or not!gunpowder like smokepowder?


I'm not sure about mentions of gun_powder_ specificallt, but Greyhawk explicitly has guns

----------


## Khedrac

> I'm not sure about mentions of gun_powder_ specificallt, but Greyhawk explicitly has guns


Are you sure?  Spelljammer has an explicit mention that smokepowder doesn't work in Oerth's atmosphere.

I think energy weapons from White Plume Mountain aren't within the intent of the OP.

----------


## Tzardok

> Are you sure?  Spelljammer has an explicit mention that smokepowder doesn't work in Oerth's atmosphere.
> 
> I think energy weapons from White Plume Mountain aren't within the intent of the OP.


Murlynd, an Oerthian hero-god of magic technology, once visited Earth and brought guns with him (I think he has an revolver as his personal weapon of choice). Outside of his cult nobody uses them; medieval stasis is enforced on Oerth.

----------


## Khedrac

> Murlynd, an Oerthian hero-god of magic technology, once visited Earth and brought guns with him (I think he has an revolver as his personal weapon of choice). Outside of his cult nobody uses them; medieval stasis is enforced on Oerth.


Good point.  I suspect there was a retro-fit to make them work magically when the spelljammer smokepowder ban went in.
Of course, they could burn something else (see Zelazny's novel "The Guns of Avalon").

----------


## Tzardok

Either that, or, depending on how that ban comes to be and who enforces it, Murlynd got an exception for his cult.

----------


## Dalmosh

What are the major overarching architectural themes/constraints you see on planes with subjective gravity (Air, Water, Limbo, Astral etc) that differentiate how population centres are constructed there, compared with ones in normal gravity?

How does this affect day to day life for the general population?

----------


## Bohandas

What does the "colorless" part of the Rain of Colorless Fire refer to? Was it black, white, iridescent, or clear? 

(I'm personally leaning towards clear in the absence of other information but the other two still seem plausible to me)

----------


## Tzardok

The World of Greyhawk Folio, a 2nd ed. book, describes the Rain of Colorless Fire as "a nearly invisible fiery rain which killed all creatures it struck, burned all living things, ignited the landscape with colorless flame, and burned the very hills themselves to ash." In the Oerth Journal, issue 12, it is described similiar, as "the near-invisible and unquenchable flames that consumed the land, burning even rock to powdery ash."

Incidentally, the Journal ascribes the Rain to a deity named Dorgha Torgu. I haven't heard of him before. What is known about him?

----------


## afroakuma

> What are the major overarching architectural themes/constraints you see on planes with subjective gravity (Air, Water, Limbo, Astral etc) that differentiate how population centres are constructed there, compared with ones in normal gravity?


For the most part these haven't been detailed, though we've seen pavilions in djinn settlements that are pretty open - basically just columned arches with open walls. Limbo has no consistent architectural themes. Water builds things basically the same way underwater civilizations on the Prime do, with the only caveat being that they sometimes need to account for a lack of firm anchoring point unless they can find an earth pocket or sufficiently large coral accretion - after all, to water-dwellers, vertical momentum is always somewhat discretionary to begin with. Some such areas have functional "gravity wells" that clearly define a "down" within their perimeter (for example, the god-corpse of The One In The Void, on which the githyanki city of Tu'narath is built), which allows them to build accordingly.




> What does the "colorless" part of the Rain of Colorless Fire refer to? Was it black, white, iridescent, or clear?


Clear.




> Incidentally, the Journal ascribes the Rain to a deity named Dorgha Torgu. I haven't heard of him before. What is known about him?


That he's non-canonical, because the Oerth Journal is a fanmade publication.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Tzardok

> That he's non-canonical, because the Oerth Journal is a fanmade publication.


Huh. I thought the article he was mentioned in was written by Gygax, but I may have misunderstood something.

----------


## afroakuma

> Huh. I thought the article he was mentioned in was written by Gygax, but I may have misunderstood something.


Not relevant. I mean if we took his canon at face value, then...




> In Gary Gygax's Gord the Rogue series, Demogorgon is the brother of another demon lord called Mandrillagon.


Needless to say, if it's not from an official publication, I don't care what Gygax wrote  :Small Tongue:

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## Tzardok

Herogods can't build divine realms. Where do the souls of those go that worship them? To the appropriate Outer Plane? To the divine realm of the herogod's patron? Something else?

Also, I wonder where Apep's petitioners go, but he propably devours them to gain strength for escape attempts.

Thirdly, do you feel up to fleshing out the Deep Mirror?

Edit: What is the true origin of the malaugrym? The 3.x sources insist that they use the Plane of Shadow only as a bridgehead for conquering Fearûn instead of being natives there.

Edit #2: Is there anything worthwhile on elemental stewards? How do these beings come to be and why are they obsessed with serving psions?

----------


## Tzardok

What form do elemental weirds take on their native planes? How do their abilities change when they aren't routed in some elemental portal on the Prime? Do they fulfill some kind of niche on the elemental planes?

Edit: What other paraelemental weirds besides the ice weird and the snow weird from Frostburn could exist? What kind of events would fall in their respective oracular niche? Are there quasielemental weirds?

Edit 2: The Rabble of Devilkind loiters around on Avernus because Bel has neither the time nor the power to do something about it. Where did they dwell back when Zariel was still in power?

----------


## afroakuma

> Herogods can't build divine realms. Where do the souls of those go that worship them? To the appropriate Outer Plane?


Yep. Some may have arrangements with a patron (provided they have one) to collect the souls to themselves, but in general you go where you belong based on who you are as a person. Hero-gods and quasi-deities don't have any kind of conventional draw to petitioner souls.




> Thirdly, do you feel up to fleshing out the Deep Mirror?


Lol no. I do still want to get to that request, but perhaps when I stop being asked to do overtime from midnight to 3 AM.  :Small Tongue: 

In the meantime, I did do a little mirror stuff over in the other thread. You know the one.




> Edit: What is the true origin of the malaugrym? The 3.x sources insist that they use the Plane of Shadow only as a bridgehead for conquering Fearûn instead of being natives there.


They descend from the mortal wizard Malaug, formerly a warlord named Malaugadorn, who entered the Plane of Shadow and built a castle there to serve as a base for his continued studies into magic. All malaugrym are born "human" and become what they are by being kidnapped and brought to the Castle of Shadows to be raised; the Castle itself is known to impart temporary shape-altering abilities to humans within its boundaries, which normally fade after a brief spell of time away from the Castle. Something about possessing the blood of Malaug (all malaugrym are descended from him) causes the Castle to provide this ability to them permanently. It's likely that the Castle of Shadows draws on energies from another plane (4E decided on the Far Realm, because of course it did, but the malaugrym are just too consistent, to say nothing of actively concerned with the Material Plane, for that to make sense) or more likely an alternate Prime such as the grell homeworld, and that Malaug's experiments in using the Plane of Shadow as a bridge between worlds and radical magical alterations of his own body using shadowstuff to immunize himself against the hazards of alternate Material Planes resulted in the freaky beaky shapeshifters we now know and hate. One alternate possibility is that he tried to use the Castle as a base of operations to explore other planes, including the Ethereal Plane, which cannot coexist with the Plane of Shadow; in trying to tamper with this boundary, he caused the shapechanging instability that permeates the Castle and also inadvertently made it so that only the Shadowmaster, who fully controls the Castle and can stabilize its powers, can create _gates_.




> Edit #2: Is there anything worthwhile on elemental stewards?


Nope.




> How do these beings come to be and why are they obsessed with serving psions?


Most likely, as the entry suggests, they arise from psionic contact with the Elemental Planes causing the living elements to take on shapes vaguely similar to the psionic beings' own mental imprints, though smaller, and with similar behaviors.




> What form do elemental weirds


Oh no.  :Small Sigh: 




> take on their native planes?


As far as we are aware, they quite simply don't. They likely resemble any other conventional elemental of their respective element if encountered on their home plane. 




> How do their abilities change when they aren't routed in some elemental portal on the Prime?


Unknown.




> Do they fulfill some kind of niche on the elemental planes?


It was conjectured that upon their return home, they disperse the knowledge collected from their time on the Prime to the service of their elemental plane in some fashion. It has not been explained how, or why, or verified that this is the case. Other than that, we don't know.




> Edit: What other paraelemental weirds besides the ice weird and the snow weird from Frostburn could exist?


Whyyy.  :Small Yuk: 

I see no reason why other paraelemental weirds could not or would not exist. I also, of course, see no reason for snow weirds to not be ice weirds, but that's Frostburn for you. Causing trouble just for kicks.




> What kind of events would fall in their respective oracular niche?


I would just be making up random nonsense here, so... I won't. To be clear, the specific and explicit reason I hate elemental weirds is because they awkwardly knocked over the original concept of a water weird, which is a hostile water elemental snake that wants to drown you, and then awkwardly tried to reestablish it while also claiming it was one of several "lesser weirds" who can now all shoot energy attacks for some daft reason. 3.X, everybody.  :Small Sigh:  Standalone, they're not a terrible idea, but this was just a case of stepping on toes and then trying to backpedal, badly. Also, as noted previously, Frostburn needs to choke on yellow snow.




> Are there quasielemental weirds?


Feels excessive, but I'm sure Sandstorm wants ash and dust weirds, so sure why not.




> Edit 2: The Rabble of Devilkind loiters around on Avernus because Bel has neither the time nor the power to do something about it. Where did they dwell back when Zariel was still in power?


They have always been on Avernus; they're simply forbidden from amassing power and followings, and it's likely that under Zariel they forked over bribes to be spared her attention from time to time, or to have her direct her burning gaze toward a rival instead. Remember, none of them are forbidden from *being* in Baator, and Asmodeus knows about all of them; Bel's problem is that he lacks sufficient authority within his own layer to even enforce the rules over them, and so it takes him more attention and resources to go swat one - a task he *must* undertake lest the Lord Below get annoyed with his failures. In the past, Zariel had the help of Amduscias, Goap, and Malphas to monitor the Rabble, but with Bel's ascension these three have defected to Tiamat's service, and she doesn't care about the Rabble. Also, of course, since that time the ranks of the Rabble have grown.

----------


## Tzardok

> In the meantime, I did do a little mirror stuff over in the other thread. You know the one.


You are talking about Loremaster Ijiate and his Mirror domain, right? I'll take it happily.



> They descend from the mortal wizard Malaug, formerly a warlord named Malaugadorn, who entered the Plane of Shadow and built a castle there to serve as a base for his continued studies into magic. All malaugrym are born "human" and become what they are by being kidnapped and brought to the Castle of Shadows to be raised; the Castle itself is known to impart temporary shape-altering abilities to humans within its boundaries, which normally fade after a brief spell of time away from the Castle. Something about possessing the blood of Malaug (all malaugrym are descended from him) causes the Castle to provide this ability to them permanently. It's likely that the Castle of Shadows draws on energies from another plane (4E decided on the Far Realm, because of course it did, but the malaugrym are just too consistent, to say nothing of actively concerned with the Material Plane, for that to make sense) or more likely an alternate Prime such as the grell homeworld, and that Malaug's experiments in using the Plane of Shadow as a bridge between worlds and radical magical alterations of his own body using shadowstuff to immunize himself against the hazards of alternate Material Planes resulted in the freaky beaky shapeshifters we now know and hate. One alternate possibility is that he tried to use the Castle as a base of operations to explore other planes, including the Ethereal Plane, which cannot coexist with the Plane of Shadow; in trying to tamper with this boundary, he caused the shapechanging instability that permeates the Castle and also inadvertently made it so that only the Shadowmaster, who fully controls the Castle and can stabilize its powers, can create _gates_.


Ah, clear.




> I would just be making up random nonsense here, so... I won't. To be clear, the specific and explicit reason I hate elemental weirds is because they awkwardly knocked over the original concept of a water weird, which is a hostile water elemental snake that wants to drown you, and then awkwardly tried to reestablish it while also claiming it was one of several "lesser weirds" who can now all shoot energy attacks for some daft reason. 3.X, everybody.  Standalone, they're not a terrible idea, but this was just a case of stepping on toes and then trying to backpedal, badly. Also, as noted previously, Frostburn needs to choke on yellow snow.


Huh, I thought the weird drowning snakes were the younger invention, with the oracular ones being more interesting, which my mind apparantly translated to "Planescape stuff". But if it is like that I can understand your annoyance. Thank you.

Incidentally, my project to adapt non-core classes to Ravenloft is completed! I've started posting it here. If anybody feels like giving their opinion, feel free.  :Small Big Grin: 

Edit: Vistani are technically human. So they should be compatible with elves. If an elf and a vistani produce offspring, would it be identicall to other half-elves or would it have some or all traits of a _giomorgo_?

----------


## afroakuma

> Huh, I thought the weird drowning snakes were the younger invention


Nope, it went:

OD&D: Hey dad let's have a drowny water snake.
1E D&D: Who doesn't love a drowny water snake?
2E D&D: Check out everyone's favorite drowny water snake!
3E D&D: Hi I'm an oracular lady who lives in a pool of water that can transform you into water and I tell you things about healing. Also I'm just one elemental flavor of the same thing.
3.5E D&D: ...oh and also drowny water snakes are our immature versions... for some reason.
4E D&D: What just happened? We're gonna take a breather on the insanity.
5E D&D: *Breathing is for sissies, drowny water snakes are back!*




> Incidentally, my project to adapt non-core classes to Ravenloft is completed! I've started posting it here. If anybody feels like giving their opinion, feel free.


I've been reading with interest. I think Incarnum in particular will need a lot of new content but it looks good so far.




> Edit: Vistani are technically human. So they should be compatible with elves. If an elf and a vistani produce offspring, would it be identicall to other half-elves or would it have some or all traits of a _giomorgo_?


Half-elf half-Vistani are called _giamarga_ and are profoundly rare. The only listed mention of them notes that their rarity is so significant that they should not be an eligible playable race.

----------


## Tzardok

> Nope, it went:
> 
> OD&D: Hey dad let's have a drowny water snake.
> 1E D&D: Who doesn't love a drowny water snake?
> 2E D&D: Check out everyone's favorite drowny water snake!
> 3E D&D: Hi I'm an oracular lady who lives in a pool of water that can transform you into water and I tell you things about healing. Also I'm just one elemental flavor of the same thing.
> 3.5E D&D: ...oh and also drowny water snakes are our immature versions... for some reason.
> 4E D&D: What just happened? We're gonna take a breather on the insanity.
> 5E D&D: *Breathing is for sissies, drowny water snakes are back!*


Everybody loves snakes (except for 4e. Typical.)  :Small Big Grin: 




> I've been reading with interest. I think Incarnum in particular will need a lot of new content but it looks good so far.


Good to know. It also may interest you that I finished posting all that stuff now. I _could_ use a bit of help with the Healer (y'know, the underwhelming one from Miniatures Handbook); I'm not sure what to do with the unicorn companion. A unicorn dread companion sounds... yeah




> Half-elf half-Vistani are called _giamarga_ and are profoundly rare. The only listed mention of them notes that their rarity is so significant that they should not be an eligible playable race.


Huuu. Canon _did_ think of that. Interesting.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

Do we have recorded instances of illithids eating illithid brains? I know Elminster described the illithid brain as poisonous, but is it so for mind flayers themselves? What would be the result of an illithid consuming only its brethrens?

----------


## Tzardok

Well, you propably remember that a mind flayer brain is essentially a parasite in a humanoid body. Lords of Madness tells us that the body requires hormons and other substances produced by the originl brain which the mind flayer brain can't substitute, and that's (part of) the reason why mind flayers eat brains. A cannibalistic mind flayer won't get those, so similiar starvation symptons as a mind flayer dining only on cows are propably goind to set in. If the mind flayer dies this way, I would assume that he would rise as some kind of cannibalistic undead, a illithid version of a ghoul or a mind flayer vampire for example.

----------


## Dalmosh

Elder Brains subsist on illithid tadpoles, though are a higher order of being for all intents and purposes.

Tadpoles also cannibalize one another.

I'd figured illithid cannibalism was more of a taboo than a physiological constraint.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> Well, you propably remember that a mind flayer brain is essentially a parasite in a humanoid body. Lords of Madness tells us that the body requires hormons and other substances produced by the originl brain which the mind flayer brain can't substitute, and that's (part of) the reason why mind flayers eat brains. A cannibalistic mind flayer won't get those, so similiar starvation symptons as a mind flayer dining only on cows are propably goind to set in. If the mind flayer dies this way, I would assume that he would rise as some kind of cannibalistic undead, a illithid version of a ghoul or a mind flayer vampire for example.


An elder brain is the brain of an ulitharid, so the tadpole has to morph into a true brain at one point or another during ceremorphosis. And I'm not sure about the cannibalistic mind flayer not being able to get hormones from the brain of another illithid. For example, the vitamin B12 is only synthesized in the digestive system of herbivores, then passed on to those who eat these herbivores. It could very well be the same for "brain hormones" that aren't synthesized by illithids, but could be passed on if an illithid eats another's brain.

----------


## Dalmosh

> An elder brain is the brain of an ulitharid


Is that actually specified prior to 5th ed.?

----------


## Tzardok

> An elder brain is the brain of an ulitharid, so the tadpole has to morph into a true brain at one point or another during ceremorphosis. And I'm not sure about the cannibalistic mind flayer not being able to get hormones from the brain of another illithid. For example, the vitamin B12 is only synthesized in the digestive system of herbivores, then passed on to those who eat these herbivores. It could very well be the same for "brain hormones" that aren't synthesized by illithids, but could be passed on if an illithid eats another's brain.


What? Where did you get the elder brain-ulitharid connection? Isn't it canon that no one, not even mind flayers, know where elder brains come from?

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> Is that actually specified prior to 5th ed.?


Yeah it was in 5e, that's my b, I didn't check the source. Still, that makes the "illithids can't eat another illithid's brain because they don't have one" argument a bit shaky.

----------


## Tzardok

Only if you accept 5e as canon, which this thread officially doesn't do.

----------


## Dalmosh

Brain cannibalism also comes with acute health risks, as brain tissue can harbour prions, which are often virulently deadly and (in real world humans) impossible to treat.  They are not even normal micro-organisms, just weird self-replicating broken proteins that cause all sorts of degenerative illnesses.  

Generally illithids must be able to suppress prionic diseases from human brains as that's their whole jam, but that isn't necessarily going to be the case for eating the mature brains of their own species.

----------


## Bohandas

> What? Where did you get the elder brain-ulitharid connection? Isn't it canon that no one, not even mind flayers, know where elder brains come from?


No, it's explained pretty clearly in _Illithiad_. It's not ulitharids though, it's just the brains of the settlement's founders all grafted together

----------


## Tzardok

Yeah, well. _Lords of Madness_ on the other hand claims that the elder brains' origins are unknown. I quote:




> How and elder brain comes to be is unknown. Even to the mind flayers, an elder brain is timeless and ageless.

----------


## Bohandas

I still think the kind of "unknown" they're talking about there is more along the lines of how the overwhelming majority of people in the USA don't know how to build an atom bomb

----------


## Tzardok

What languages do quasi-elementals speak? Do they just speak the language of their respective elemental component, or do they... change it up somehow?

----------


## enderlord99

What planar entity would you associate most strongly with the sentence "I don't eat mortal people"

----------


## Batcathat

> What planar entity would you associate most strongly with the sentence "I don't eat mortal people"


I can't be the only one who really wants to know the reasons for this question, right?  :Small Confused:

----------


## enderlord99

> I can't be the only one who really wants to know the reasons for this question, right?


Running joke in another thread.

----------


## Batcathat

> Running joke in another thread.


I must admit, I'm a little disappointed. I was hoping for some weirder explanation.

----------


## Bohandas

> What planar entity would you associate most strongly with the sentence "I don't eat mortal people"


What comes to mind for me is the Avolakia (MM2) which eats the undead, and the Gulthir (MM5) which eats fiends

----------


## Thealtruistorc

So two things which came to my mind today, both relating to my upcoming game.

1. Dragon Magazine talked about the name Astaroth and how it was taken from any Obyrith by a powerful Devil. This got me thinking about what the metaphysical effects of having an outsider's name stolen would be, especially for an outsider that is native to the Abyss.

2. What are the main distinguishing factors between a bargain with a fey and a bargain with a fiend? What does each generally want that would make their deal distinctive? For that matter, would a fey ever get involved with a fiend and vice versa?

----------


## afroakuma

> Do we have recorded instances of illithids eating illithid brains? I know Elminster described the illithid brain as poisonous, but is it so for mind flayers themselves? What would be the result of an illithid consuming only its brethrens?


You know, I was sure there was one, but I cannot find the attestation. In any event, it would not be good for them - the illithid brain by definition does not produce the nutrients or psionic potential needed for illithid digestion, which is why they have to go get brains from others in the first place - otherwise, they could just snack on tadpoles. Furthermore, the powerful psionic personality within an illithid brain is unlikely to "go quietly" if ingested by a compatible bioform, and they're likely to develop serious psychiatric complications as the dying brain's personality lashes out from within.




> No, it's explained pretty clearly in _Illithiad_. It's not ulitharids though, it's just the brains of the settlement's founders all grafted together


Mm... no. An elder brain's mass is certainly continually added to in that way, but what makes an elder brain more than just a few stitched-together brains is unknown to modern mind flayers.




> What languages do quasi-elementals speak? Do they just speak the language of their respective elemental component, or do they... change it up somehow?


Unless otherwise specified, basically just odd dialects of the main elemental languages.




> What planar entity would you associate most strongly with the sentence "I don't eat mortal people"


I wouldn't, really.




> 1. Dragon Magazine talked about the name Astaroth and how it was taken from any Obyrith by a powerful Devil. This got me thinking about what the metaphysical effects of having an outsider's name stolen would be, especially for an outsider that is native to the Abyss.


It's extremely obnoxious for them - Asmodeus actually did it to Jaqon once, changing his name to Dagon, knowing this would be the equivalent of calling a small city in Texas "Paris" - nothing is ever going to properly address to you, not when there's a much bigger and far more well-known thing out there with that name. For Jaqon Dagon, it means he functionally cannot be summoned or otherwise contacted by conventional Material Plane means, as any attempts to do so will get the demon prince of that same name instead. It's also a rather efficient step on the road to becoming a vestige - if the multiverse no longer knows that you are you, why should it bother trying to keep you around? In the case of Astaroth, *two* vestiges actually hold the name, and the third entity to make use of it (who stole it from the demon lord) goes by Gargauth nowadays, likely to avoid any such complications himself.




> 2. What are the main distinguishing factors between a bargain with a fey and a bargain with a fiend?


A fiend actively knows something bad will happen to you, wants it to happen, and designed the deal that way expressly. Their goal is to cause further harm and evil, the maximum amount they can, and you are a pawn in that game. A fey (usually) does not concern itself with what the cost of the bargain will do to you or anyone else; they're entirely of the caveat emptor school of thought, and while they will hold to the exact letter of the deal, even a good-aligned fey is highly unlikely to walk it back at all because you've discovered it might not be all you hoped it was.




> What does each generally want that would make their deal distinctive?


Fiends generally want souls and/or to spread evil on the Prime. Usually both. Fey are comparatively inscrutable and are after esoteric intangibles just as often as anything else - your honesty, for example, might be something for them to buy and bottle.




> For that matter, would a fey ever get involved with a fiend and vice versa?


It's plausible; generally a fey would not initiate such a transaction, as the attendant risks are quite obvious to them, and there's little they could buy from a fiend that would not be inherently contaminated with pure evil. A fiend is likely to make dealings with a fey on the fiend's terms, and they will be quite leery of making the kinds of bargains the fey excel at. By and large the two do not *want* to deal with one another.

----------


## Dalmosh

> otherwise, they could just snack on tadpoles.


Well, even if they technically could, the implication is that they wouldn't.  Elder Brains have spawning pretty tightly locked down as a further means of controlling the community, and given the reverence illithids place on their Elder Brain and its pool, it would seem that the concept of feeding from its waters would be deeply offensive to them.

The Elder Brain is not going to be down with sharing its foodsource either.  LoM specifies that some Elder Brains behave more as passive lorehouses than active rulers, but I'd expect illithids trying to siphon off its core resources would change that up pretty quickly.

----------


## aj77

I'm working on writing an introductory adventure for a Planescape game I hope to run.  The general premise is that some of the factions invite the players (all Clueless Primes) into Sigil to participate in a Rat Race style adventure across the planes, ostensibly for their own amusement. 

I'm thinking, however, that they have an ulterior motive: they need a bunch of Clueless Primes to go somewhere and do something that only Clueless Primes can go and do.
Any ideas on what that might be?

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> I'm working on writing an introductory adventure for a Planescape game I hope to run.  The general premise is that some of the factions invite the players (all Clueless Primes) into Sigil to participate in a Rat Race style adventure across the planes, ostensibly for their own amusement. 
> 
> I'm thinking, however, that they have an ulterior motive: they need a bunch of Clueless Primes to go somewhere and do something that only Clueless Primes can go and do.
> Any ideas on what that might be?


Well, the Outer Planes are fairly compartmentalized, as you're just not supposed to get in a Plane that doesn't have your alignment. Eladrins in disguise can send clueless LG Primes to recover a random McGuffin on Mount Celestia that helps fight evil, but that Archons do not want to use because it has unintended consequences. This can even be framed as a reward if they win the rat race. Or, even more easily, the Lady of Pain forbids any god to influence the inside of Sigil. Some demigod that isn't confident in their ability to assassinate somebody, or gain intel on the Lady herself might ask expendable people with little to no link to them for it. They wouldn't ask one of their powerful followers because... Well, powerful followers are rare, and they don't want the Lady to kill one of theirs if the follower gets spotted.

----------


## Eldan

> I'm working on writing an introductory adventure for a Planescape game I hope to run.  The general premise is that some of the factions invite the players (all Clueless Primes) into Sigil to participate in a Rat Race style adventure across the planes, ostensibly for their own amusement. 
> 
> I'm thinking, however, that they have an ulterior motive: they need a bunch of Clueless Primes to go somewhere and do something that only Clueless Primes can go and do.
> Any ideas on what that might be?


Shadowrunner-style deniability? "Oh no, those were just some primes, they weren't part of _our_ faction."

----------


## Alea

> Well, the Outer Planes are fairly compartmentalized, as you're just not supposed to get in a Plane that doesn't have your alignment.


This is untrue.

People who _die_ naturally go to some particular plane to become petitioners, and are not supposed to go elsewhere. But everyone elseoutsiders, planar mortals, clueless primes using _plane shift_, etc.is more-or-less free to travel among the planes (within the limits of their capability to find and access portals or cast _plane shift_). One presumes a Sigil faction consortium would have no trouble accessing public areas of most planes.

Your specific examples are reasonable, since theyre looking to have plausible deniability with the people of the target planes since they want to do things in each that theyre not allowed to do. But actually accessing the other planes is not a problem.

----------


## Arcanist

Is there an accepted common coordinate system for navigating the arcane flow? I am asking if there is any parallels to how we as Humans created an arbitrary Galactic Coordinate system using Earth and the Sun as a point of reference. Is there a commonly agreed upon celestial body where everyone who engages in the greater Spelljamming societies can collectively acknowledge as being the equivalent to Null Island?

----------


## afroakuma

> Is there an accepted common coordinate system for navigating the arcane flow? I am asking if there is any parallels to how we as Humans created an arbitrary Galactic Coordinate system using Earth and the Sun as a point of reference. Is there a commonly agreed upon celestial body where everyone who engages in the greater Spelljamming societies can collectively acknowledge as being the equivalent to Null Island?


Coordinates aren't tremendously useful in the Flow as things, you know... flow. Broadly, though, the existence of flow rivers allows relativistic charting. The most helpful and consistent reference point in the local quadrant of arcane space is the Radiant Triangle, the fairly stable configuration of Krynnspace, Greyspace, and Realmspace.

----------


## Thealtruistorc

Questions pertaining to parallel Shadow-separated versions of a world and the rest of the cosmology.

If my cleric of Pelor named Bert travels through the Plane of Shadow to go from Oerth to one of its alternate versions,
1. Would he still have access to spells granted by his deity on alt-Oerth? Could Bert prepare new spells on not-Oerth?
2. If Bert casts Summon Monster to call an angel, would the angel come from the heaven which Bert knows or from some analogous higher plane in this alternate universe?
3. If Bert is killed on not-Oerth, where does his soul go? Is it returned to Pelor or does it go to some analagous higher plane?
4. As an alternative to all of these, are the Gods, Crystal Spheres, and Outer Planes the same across many parallel material planes? If Bert were to arrive on not-Oerth, might there already be churches of the same Pelor he knows?

----------


## afroakuma

> Questions pertaining to parallel Shadow-separated versions of a world and the rest of the cosmology.


We don't have a ton of canonical material on this, but I'll do what I can.




> If my cleric of Pelor named Bert travels through the Plane of Shadow to go from Oerth to one of its alternate versions,
> 1. Would he still have access to spells granted by his deity on alt-Oerth? Could Bert prepare new spells on not-Oerth?


In general, spells already granted would be carried over; however, preparing new spells would be at best highly limited.




> 2. If Bert casts Summon Monster to call an angel, would the angel come from the heaven which Bert knows or from some analogous higher plane in this alternate universe?


The spell would attempt to call out across a planar channel it's not supposed to use and would fail.




> 3. If Bert is killed on not-Oerth, where does his soul go? Is it returned to Pelor or does it go to some analagous higher plane?


Insofar as his deity is able, Pelor will absolutely try to pull his soul back through the extremely thin tether. Depending on the method of arrival, though, it's highly probable that Bert's destined for afterlife in the new cosmology and won't be able to go back where he belongs.




> 4. As an alternative to all of these, are the Gods, Crystal Spheres, and Outer Planes the same across many parallel material planes? If Bert were to arrive on not-Oerth, might there already be churches of the same Pelor he knows?


They are very much not. There are gods who know of and have extended aspects of themselves into alternate cosmologies, but you would still end up with Pelor and "Pelor" and no meaningful linkage between the two. There are also, of course, alternate cosmologies with altered parallels of such things - a "Pelor" who knows absolutely nothing about the Pelor Bert worships and might even be some kind of inversion (a god of the night, for example).

----------


## Kordak

Is anything known about the Garden in Avernus, other than that it's a supposedly safe place?

----------


## Tzardok

I don't remember any gardens in Avernus. Are you maybe talking about the Garden of Delights in Dis? That one is suposedly a safe place, but in truth it's an illusion created by hired ifrits, designed to corrupt those that partake in its pleasures to Evil and to secretly kill those who resist being corrupted.

----------


## Kordak

> I don't remember any gardens in Avernus. Are you maybe talking about the Garden of Delights in Dis? That one is suposedly a safe place, but in truth it's an illusion created by hired ifrits, designed to corrupt those that partake in its pleasures to Evil and to secretly kill those who resist being corrupted.


No, I don't think so. The Garden is from Planes Of Law, but there's not much information given other than violence is magically prevented and that people sometimes seem to just disappear there

----------


## Thurbane

Is this related to the 5E adventure Garden of Evil?

----------


## Kordak

> Is this related to the 5E adventure Garden of Evil?


It might be the same garden, but I'm not sure. I've never played 5e in my life.

It does raise the question though; how many infernal gardens are there, and how many do we really need?

----------


## Thurbane

> It might be the same garden, but I'm not sure. I've never played 5e in my life.
> 
> It does raise the question though; how many infernal gardens are there, and how many do we really need?


Yeah, I don't play 5E either (well, we did a single adventure on Roll20 during lockdown), but when I was Googling your question, that adventure kept popping up.

"_In the Garden of Evil_ is a Tier 2 adventure set in Avernus in which the characters are sent to save a Hellrider and her unicorn which are trapped in Bloodroot Grove, a remnant of the beauty that existed in Avernus before the Blood War"

----------


## enderlord99

> The Garden is from Planes Of Law, but there's not much information given other than violence is magically prevented and that people sometimes seem to just disappear there


That sounds like a "yes" TBH.

----------


## aj77

I asked Afro about the Garden on page 20 of this thread.  He said there was no more canon info about it; but remember that 4e and 5e are considered non-canon here.

----------


## satorian

> They are very much not. There are gods who know of and have extended aspects of themselves into alternate cosmologies, but you would still end up with Pelor and "Pelor" and no meaningful linkage between the two. There are also, of course, alternate cosmologies with altered parallels of such things - a "Pelor" who knows absolutely nothing about the Pelor Bert worships and might even be some kind of inversion (a god of the night, for example).


Just curious if this is Afrocanon, or if it is more broadly true. Your thread, your canon, of course. But just want to clarify.

With the caveat that most of my conceptualization of planar and deity stuff comes from a five year obsession 30 years ago with AD&D/2E Deities and Demigods, Legends and Lore, and Planescape, I've usually assumed a sort of "Platonic Pelor" or "Ur-Pelor" from which all mortal understandings arise. The aspect a prime denizen prays to, or would meet in a trip to the upper planes, would be the one from his prime. Wise gods would probably have some awareness of this aspect of the nature of the cosmos.

I guess I always assumed this because Planescape implies the ability to travel to alternate primes from Sigil. If that's possible, then there's only one Sigil, and one of each outer plane. But since the outer planes are shaped by belief, they'd manifest slightly differently, depending on the visitor. And as the planes, so their masters.

----------


## Tzardok

You are intermixing two things: seperate worlds on the Prime Material Plane and alternate material worlds. Toril, Athas, Krynn, Oerth and so on all exist on the same plane in the same cosmology, and all of them have only a single Pelor (not that Pelor is worshipped on all of them, but you know what I mean). But as soon as you step sideways from Oerth to Uerth or Yarth or one of the other parallel worlds, you stop being in the Great Wheel. And then you meet Nega-Pelor or whatever.

----------


## Bohandas

I had always interpreted the alternate worlds reached by the plane of shadow as beign the same alternate worlds you can get to through the phlogiston, with the caveat that proximity in the plane of shadow is tied directly to the similarity of the worlds, so that a world that's similar to your world but too far to by spelljamming might nonetheless be right next door in the plane of shadow

----------


## redking

> You are intermixing two things: seperate worlds on the Prime Material Plane and alternate material worlds. Toril, Athas, Krynn, Oerth and so on all exist on the same plane in the same cosmology


Athas has a different set of inner elemental planes, which is a huge hint that Athas is on a different dimension altogether. You can get from Athas (and it's attendant planes) to the standard cosmology with difficulty.

----------


## afroakuma

> I asked Afro about the Garden on page 20 of this thread.  He said there was no more canon info about it; but remember that 4e and 5e are considered non-canon here.


This.




> Just curious if this is Afrocanon, or if it is more broadly true. Your thread, your canon, of course. But just want to clarify.


As noted in that answer, that would be afrocanon because it essentially *has* to be - the only even remotely canon answer available is "every Pelor is different!" because that's what they started doing in 3E - dividing the settings. There's quite simply an enormous dearth of actual canon regarding how *anything* interacts with alternate Primes.




> I guess I always assumed this because Planescape implies the ability to travel to alternate primes from Sigil. If that's possible, then there's only one Sigil, and one of each outer plane. But since the outer planes are shaped by belief, they'd manifest slightly differently, depending on the visitor. And as the planes, so their masters.


To be clear, when we say "alternate Primes" we do not mean Krynn vs. Oerth vs. Toril. Those are all the same Prime Material Plane - they just exist in different crystal spheres on that same plane. An alternate Prime would exist in its own separate cosmology, which might have close ties to the one we know, or be incredibly remote. When Planescape suggests you can hop from Sigil to Toril or Oerth with ease, that's entirely correct, and entirely the same Prime Material Plane.




> I had always interpreted the alternate worlds reached by the plane of shadow as beign the same alternate worlds you can get to through the phlogiston


It sounds like I need to clear a few things up here.

*The Plane of Shadow* can take you anywhere on the *same* Prime Material Plane (so you can journey from Oerth to Toril, for instance, if you want to) just like a trip through the phlogiston can. However, when we refer to an *alternate Prime Material Plane*, we're talking about an entirely different thing - the Plane of Shadow can get you to these, the phlogiston *cannot*.

The best way I can think to contextualize it is this: on the Prime Material Plane in the Great Wheel cosmology, each campaign setting exists in its own solar system - they're all in the same universe, but when you travel from one world to another, you're expecting different indigenous flora and fauna; different continents, geography, and politics; likely different religions. On an *alternate Prime*, you might find yourself on the *"same"* continent that you came from, on the *"same"* world, only everyone here is the evil twin of their counterpart from your Prime. Or perhaps they're all left-handed. Or perhaps everyone you knew as an elf is now an orc. If you think of something like parallel worlds, alternate timelines, anything where you'd end up in a world that qualifies as "familiar yet wrong," *that* is the domain of the alternate Prime.

Tl;dr:

 Some dude is a warforged: other sphere, same Material Plane.
 Your mom is a warforged: same sphere, alternate Material Plane.




> Athas has a different set of inner elemental planes, which is a huge hint that Athas is on a different dimension altogether. You can get from Athas (and it's attendant planes) to the standard cosmology with difficulty.


Oddly, Athas ends up being canonically in the same cosmology - despite original intentions being pretty clear to keep it separate, *its own product line* ended up linking it to the Outer Planes with an adventure that saw the githyanki attempting to establish a stable portal through which they could invade.

----------


## Larkas

The closing paragraph of Die, Vecna, Die! reads as follows:




> Even with Vecna's removal, his time in the crux effected change in superspace. Though the Lady of Pain attempts to heal the damage, the turmoil spawned by Vecna's time in Sigil cannot be entirely erased. Some Outer Planes drift off and are forever lost, others collide and merge, while at least one Inner Plane runs "aground" on a distant world of the Prime. Moreover, the very nature of the Prime Material Plane itself is altered. Half-worlds like those attached to Tovag Baragu multiply a millionfold, taking on parallel realism in what was before a unified Prime Material Plane. The concept of alternate dimensions rears its metaphorical head, but doesn't yet solidify, and perhaps it never will. New realms, both near and far, are revealed and realms never previously imagined make themselves known. Entities long thought lost emerge once more, while other creatures, both great and small, are inexplicably eradicated. Some common spells begin to work differently. The changes do not occur immediately, but instead are revealed during the subsequent months. However, one thing remains clear: Nothing will ever be the same again.


It is known that DVD! is an in-universe explanation for the changes brought about by the change from 2E to 3E, and that last paragraph was a foreshadowing of things to come.

However, I know of no examples of several of the things cited. Specifically:




> Some Outer Planes drift off and are forever lost, others collide and merge, while at least one Inner Plane runs "aground" on a distant world of the Prime.


The only thing that remotely evokes what is said here, AFAIK, is the transition of the Shadow Plane into a full plane and the relocation of the Elemental Planes into the Astral, but these are, arguably, not the kind of changes indicated there. Do you know of any examples that more closely resemble what was said there?

----------


## Tzardok

Speculation question: do obyriths and loumara evolve over the course of their existence, like tana'ri do? It seems likely, at least for obyriths, as ancient baatorians apparantly did. If yes, what factors are involved? Could a caste hierarchy be constructed?

----------


## enderlord99

> Could a caste hierarchy be constructed?


Considering just how utterly chaotic Obyriths are, I'd go with "not accurately"

----------


## Tzardok

> Considering just how utterly chaotic Obyriths are, I'd go with "not accurately"


But approximately, surely? The evolution hierarchy of tana'ri is after all just a vague ladder with more powerful caste-species on higher steps. More like digimon instead of pokemon.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## PhoenixPhyre

> Considering just how utterly chaotic Obyriths are, I'd go with "not accurately"


Personally, I've always considered it a bit...odd...that demons come in these nice "species" packages at all. I know it's mostly for convenience, but shouldn't creatures of the Abyss be more...chaotic? Slaadi, as I understand it at least, have some constraints that keep them from being just random things and force them into vaguely frog shapes. But I may be thinking of 5e on that one.

----------


## afroakuma

> The closing paragraph of Die, Vecna, Die!


Firstly, hello Larkas! Been a while!  :Small Smile: 

Secondly, oh goodie, *that* paragraph again




> The only thing that remotely evokes what is said here, AFAIK, is the transition of the Shadow Plane into a full plane and the relocation of the Elemental Planes into the Astral, but these are, arguably, not the kind of changes indicated there. Do you know of any examples that more closely resemble what was said there?


We can pretty expeditiously say "no" to that one, given that we have a list of Outer Planes from before the events of DVD! and a list of Outer Planes after those events, and they're the same list.

[QUOTE=Tzardok;25483553]Speculation question: do obyriths and loumara evolve over the course of their existence, like tana'ri do?[//QUOTE]

Loumaras very explicitly do not. Each type of loumara is born of the nightmarish reveries of a particular dead god and reflects said deity's portfolio in some warped, twisted fashion. Moreover, loumaras do not *want* to grow or change - they are driven by specific hungers and quite committed to them.

As for obyriths, obyriths can definitely transform into other obyriths, but I would not expect them to switch between known types - they'd mutate on fairly individualistic lines.




> It seems likely, at least for obyriths, as ancient baatorians apparantly did.


Ah, but you forget - the ancient baatorians are *lawful* - a clear-cut progression of power and status is quite germane to them. Obyriths are what they wish to be, insofar as they have the will to be it, and the only thing limiting them is that reality itself doesn't want them to be what they truly are.




> Could a caste hierarchy be constructed?


No.




> Personally, I've always considered it a bit...odd...that demons come in these nice "species" packages at all. I know it's mostly for convenience, but shouldn't creatures of the Abyss be more...chaotic? Slaadi, as I understand it at least, have some constraints that keep them from being just random things and force them into vaguely frog shapes. But I may be thinking of 5e on that one.


Blame the sibriexes, they sculpted tanar'ri into useful forms. Even with that in mind, it's worth noting that demons *are* a quite chaotic bunch - it's not for nothing that we used to use generic "types" to describe approximate stature and power level rather than species names. As for why it still holds, unlike the slaad who are magically forced into progressing in a certain way, for demons it's got more to do with the endless cycle of bullying - you see the thing that torments you and say "I want to *be* that" and self-actualize your way up the chain.

Demons certainly deserve more mechanical support for their chaotic natures; I'll get around to homebrewing it eventually. Gotta love all the material I create for a dead system  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Larkas

> Firstly, hello Larkas! Been a while!


Way too long, my good Fro, way too long. Glad to see everything heres in order!

----------


## Tzardok

> Loumaras very explicitly do not. Each type of loumara is born of the nightmarish reveries of a particular dead god and reflects said deity's portfolio in some warped, twisted fashion. Moreover, loumaras do not *want* to grow or change - they are driven by specific hungers and quite committed to them.


Hmm. That could be an explanation in addition to their group's youth for why there are so few loumara demon lords. Would that mean that Sifkhu was born a demon lord? Would it be a "mutation" of a normal loumara type or could there be dead god who only rarely spawns, but when it does, it makes loumara lords? Or is ascension possible, just generally unwanted?

----------


## Fable Wright

> Blame the sibriexes, they sculpted tanar'ri into useful forms. Even with that in mind, it's worth noting that demons *are* a quite chaotic bunch - it's not for nothing that we used to use generic "types" to describe approximate stature and power level rather than species names. As for why it still holds, unlike the slaad who are magically forced into progressing in a certain way, for demons it's got more to do with the endless cycle of bullying - you see the thing that torments you and say "I want to *be* that" and self-actualize your way up the chain.


So, bracing for a whack upside the head: what happens when a Planar Binding wizard is so vicious and bullying to a young demon that the dretch wants to be a wizard? Does the Dretch will itself to obtain Wizard or Sorcerer class levels through the power of spite, or does it create a custom form?

Follow-up question: Would a Dretch in Carceri evolve into a Demodand instead of a Tanar'ri? Is it possible for a Tanar'ri to become an Obyrith through the power of manifest spite?

----------


## enderlord99

> So, bracing for a whack upside the head: what happens when a Planar Binding wizard is so vicious and bullying to a young demon that the dretch wants to be a wizard? Does the Dretch will itself to obtain Wizard or Sorcerer class levels through the power of spite, or does it create a custom form?


Probably both, but also, probably mostly the former.  In regards to the latter, the new form wouldn't physically resemble the wizard's species, unless it does, but would be good at being a wizard.

----------


## Tzardok

> Follow-up question: Would a Dretch in Carceri evolve into a Demodand instead of a Tanar'ri? Is it possible for a Tanar'ri to become an Obyrith through the power of manifest spite?


I would give it a tentative yes, but with the restriction that it would propably take ages. Take Pazuzu for example, he's still halfway on the evolution from obyrith to tana'ri and he's already been at it since the end of the War of Law and Chaos.

Of course, an alternate explanation would be that it's impossible and that you can't get closer than Pazuzu's current stage, i.e. aping the other "race" very well.

----------


## Thealtruistorc

A few odd questions I have based on some campaign elements I've been considering.

1. Do we have any idea as to the homeworlds of the elves and orcs and why their respective pantheons hate each other the way they do? How did this whole conflict begin?

2. How did the process of Corellon, Gruumsh, Moradin, and other gods creating their worshipper races function? If gods generally need concepts or portfolios to come into being, how did they then create the peoples which are an integral part of their portfolio? 

3. Would it be appropriate for Kezef the Chaos Hound and Elf-Eater to have Elder Evil signs in the same manner as the entities in Elder Evils? If so, what sorts of setting-spanning signs would they show?

----------


## afroakuma

> Hmm. That could be an explanation in addition to their group's youth for why there are so few loumara demon lords. Would that mean that Sifkhu was born a demon lord?


Most likely. And even with Sifkhu, the fact that he was dormant suggests they just don't have the juice to support many demon lords.




> Would it be a "mutation" of a normal loumara type or could there be dead god who only rarely spawns, but when it does, it makes loumara lords? Or is ascension possible, just generally unwanted?


I suspect it wasn't a function of a particular god so much as a shared nightmare - a collective dread that spawned from multiple gods all focused on the same trauma. Unfortunately we know too little about Sifkhu to conjecture further.




> So, bracing for a whack upside the head: what happens when a Planar Binding wizard is so vicious and bullying to a young demon that the dretch wants to be a wizard?


...how long do you expect the dretch to be exposed to said wizard? Also, while dretches are pretty stupid, they still recognize mortals to be inherently inferior to themselves (whether or not that's true). It's quite unlikely that a dretch would perceive any humanoid to be a role model, and the takeaways from their behavior would still steer the dretch toward aspirations to a *kind* of cruelty or methodology of spite and hatred that would probably resemble an existing demonic type.




> Follow-up question: Would a Dretch in Carceri evolve into a Demodand instead of a Tanar'ri?


No. The two are very different things; it's not possible for a demon of any stripe to "evolve" into a tanar'ri.




> Is it possible for a Tanar'ri to become an Obyrith through the power of manifest spite?


Absolutely not.




> 1. Do we have any idea as to the homeworlds of the elves and orcs and why their respective pantheons hate each other the way they do? How did this whole conflict begin?


Well... we don't have any official answers. I do have some afrocanon ideas as to those homeworlds, if you'd like, which would also tie into the roots of the conflict.




> 2. How did the process of Corellon, Gruumsh, Moradin, and other gods creating their worshipper races function? If gods generally need concepts or portfolios to come into being, how did they then create the peoples which are an integral part of their portfolio?


Gods come into being through belief, but they can also be animated through the agency of an overdeity - the original creator deities were all given a chance to make something and work with a piece of the cosmos, and each of them modelled a race to serve and worship them, infused with their own essence. Except Garl.

This process can of course backfire - Gorellik famously wanted to instill independence in his progeny, and gnolls ignore him to such a vast extent that he's a barely-sapient demipower. The deity of the reigar instilled them with an insatiable need to move forward and try new things, and they *blew up their home planet* so that they would never be tempted to go back. Needless to say, said deity is no longer, uh, alive. Many of the other elder races of the stars - the juna, the thri-kreen, the hurwaeti - no longer have active deities, and in many cases even the identity of those gods is not known.




> 3. Would it be appropriate for Kezef the Chaos Hound and Elf-Eater to have Elder Evil signs in the same manner as the entities in Elder Evils?


Kezef definitely not. Dendar yes, if only because Dendar escaping signals the end of Toril. Ityak-Ortheel... I would strongly lean no, given that it's barely got any agency of its own and only arrives on Toril at all through the actions of other evil agents (Malarites, almost exclusively so).

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## Thealtruistorc

> Well... we don't have any official answers. I do have some afrocanon ideas as to those homeworlds, if you'd like, which would also tie into the roots of the conflict.


Yes, I would absolutely love to hear this.

----------


## Bohandas

> Gods come into being through belief, but they can also be animated through the agency of an overdeity


Additionally, they can also come into being as progeny of existing deities* (or existing deity-like beings**) or ascend to godhood from mortality***




> How did the process of Corellon, Gruumsh, Moradin, and other gods creating their worshipper races function? If gods generally need concepts or portfolios to come into being, how did they then create the peoples which are an integral part of their portfolio?


It's perhaps worth noting that gods' portfolios aren't necessarily fixed. They can change. Jergal is one example of this.

A perhaps more telling example however is that of Lolth. She's the goddess of Drow, but predates drow as a group. Prior to that she was presumably just the goddess of spiders. 

As an alternatr explanation to Afro's explanation, it's entirely possible that they started out as much less powerful deities (of magic, war, forges, etc.) and only became powerful greater deities after creating a race designed to follow them




> No. The two are very different things; it's not possible for a demon of any stripe to "evolve" into a tanar'ri.


Did you mean demodand (or both demodands and tanar'ri), the question was about evolving into demodands

In any case, what's the deal witn Lolth in this regard? I recall hearing in a couple places that she spent time as a specifically tanar'ri archdemon between her fall and her reascension back to godhood. How did that happen? Did she transform into a tanar'ri, was she a tanar'ri to begin with and Corellon had for some reason still thought it was a good reason to marry her, or did Corellon straight-up kill her after she tried to assassinate him and she became a tanar'ri the normal way and then worked her way back up from the very bottom?

*eg. Vhaeraun
**eg. Iuz
***eg Vecna, Zagyg, Bhaal, Bane, Myrkul, Imhotep, etc.

----------


## Tzardok

> (or existing deity-like beings**)**eg. Iuz


Arguably Iuz falls in the last category, as he wasn't born a god, but ascended.




> A perhaps more telling example however is that of Lolth. She's the goddess of Drow, but predates drow as a group. Prior to that she was presumably just the goddess of spiders.


From what we've seen, Lolth's association with spiders came after her fall. We don't have information of what her portfolio was before (except in the Forgotten Realms, as she was a patron of a dark skinned elf subrace that later became the drow), but in Afrocanon she was the elvish goddess of destiny.




> In any case, what's the deal witn Lolth in this regard? I recall hearing in a couple places that she spent time as a specifically tanar'ri archdemon between her fall and her reascension back to godhood. How did that happen? Did she transform into a tanar'ri, was she a tanar'ri to begin with and Corellon had for some reason still thought it was a good reason to marry her, or did Corellon straight-up kill her after she tried to assassinate him and she became a tanar'ri the normal way and then worked her way back up from the very bottom?


I'm not quite sure, but we can say for sure that she wasn't a tana'ri before her fall. Corellon stripped her of her divinity and booted her into the Abyss, where she became a unique spider demon (maybe as a reflection of her weaving a plot). No idea why exactly a tana'ri, but maybe it fit best as gods are made from belief and souls, and exemplars are made from souls, so...

What I wonder the most about is: Vhaeraun (and Eilistrae, but voluntary) was given the boot together with his mother for conspiring with her. Why exactly wasn't he stripped of his divinity? Had Corellon just time to cool down before dealing with his wayward son, or what?

----------


## Caelestion

Can a god really strip another god of their divinity?  If so, it clearly didn't take, as she's unquestionably still a deity now.

----------


## Tzardok

> Can a god really strip another god of their divinity?  If so, it clearly didn't take, as she's unquestionably still a deity now.


Evidently. It propably requires either having authority over the other god (as Corellon had as pantheon head) or having the other god at your mercy, like what happened with Desayus. When Desayus tried to become god of unborn souls, all the other gods turned on him, stripped him of his divinity and chained him up somewhere in Agathion, where he slowly and agonizingly fades over the millenia.

Lolth earned her divinity back by corrupting the elves that would become the drow and using their worship to ascend again.

----------


## Thurbane

The upcoming Thor movie got me thinking: are there many specific entities that have a goal of slaying deities?

I'm pretty sure one or more the Elder Evils do; and I think there was a weird, three-eyed Godzilla type being from 1E Deities & Demigods?

So, is there a really short list of deicide-driven beings in D&D, or is it so large as to be impossible to compile?

----------


## Tzardok

Pandorym is the god slayer from Elder Evils. The three eyed guy is Ma Yuan, he killed a few demigods associated with the Chinese pantheon and is now imprisoned in the darkwells. The kir-lanan are a mortal, but soulless race from Faerûn that blames the gods for them not having an afterlife and want to kill them, but the best they can do is go for the worshippers. Anybody else... hmmm...

There was Tenebrous, with the Last Word, in the salon. Does that count?  :Small Tongue:  Propably not. Godslaying was the method, not the goal here.

I think there was a vestige of another god slayer somewhere, but I can't remember who.

Otherwise... uhm.. Apep?

----------


## Eldan

There's a former demon lord now vestige called Ansitif the Befouler (Dragon magazine, I think?). He is noted for hating the very concept of divinity and directing all his followers to hunt down and destroy clerics, temples,etc. Gives resistance to divine magic, requires you to destroy any holy symbols you find.

Didn't slay any gods, but would surely have tried if he had the power.

----------


## Fable Wright

> ...how long do you expect the dretch to be exposed to said wizard?


In this scenario, I'm supposing a cruel Elven archwizard who keeps it around to use it as test fodder for a variety of debilitating spells to ensure that they work appropriately on creatures of the Abyss and to use it as a sideshow attraction to demonstrate said spells, for ~500 years or so to track long-term effects on immortals.




> Also, while dretches are pretty stupid, they still recognize mortals to be inherently inferior to themselves (whether or not that's true).


Interesting. Do they view powerful respawning undead, such as liches or vampires, as inherently inferior as well due to their unchanging nature? Or would one with overwhelming power and both ageless and resurrective immortality kin to their own put them on a similar level? We know that lichfiends exist, so there's presumably some degree of recognition...

----------


## Bohandas

> The upcoming Thor movie got me thinking: are there many specific entities that have a goal of slaying deities?
> 
> I'm pretty sure one or more the Elder Evils do; and I think there was a weird, three-eyed Godzilla type being from 1E Deities & Demigods?
> 
> So, is there a really short list of deicide-driven beings in D&D, or is it so large as to be impossible to compile?


Possibly Tharizdun.

Also any number of people during the Time of Troubles when IIRC people could claim a slain god's power

EDIT:
Also Caira Xasten, the crazy mass murderer from page 20 of Elder Evils

----------


## afroakuma

> Yes, I would absolutely love to hear this.


Alrighty, well then. May as well do them all.

*Spoiler: Afrocanon*
Show

*Dwarves*
*Creator* Moradin
*Homeworld* Dormark (Grayhome)
*Home Sphere* Drukarspace

The home of the dwarves, Dormark fell prior to the First Unhuman War, a consequence of Moradin dividing his attentions between the expanding dwarven worlds of other spheres and the incursion of orcs and goblins into Drukarspace. Though some sages believe that the fall of Dormark precipitated the War, in truth it fell not due to military conquest but rather through the intervention of Laduguer, who believed that the ongoing state of conflict on the dwarves' own homeworld was a sign of Moradin's weakness and who unleashed a fell magic to purge the world of the invaders. The results cast many dwarven cities into the crumbling hell of Thuldanin and resulted in the exile of most dwarves from their homeworld (as well as Laduguer from the pantheon) when the dire conditions of the world in the wake of the terrible magic transformed it into the Grayhome, a barren waste.

*Elves*
*Creator* Corellon Larethian
*Homeworld* Seldar
*Home Sphere* Seldarspace

The ancient homeworld of the elves, Seldar was annihilated untold eons ago, causing the First Unhuman War. A product of no fewer than three confrontations between Gruumsh and Corellon Larethian, the doom of Seldar is of such terrible infamy that it has been all but erased from the annals of history at the hands of the elves themselves, who have taken vast pains to cover up the vicious and bloody toll that Gruumsh exacted from them in payback for his lost eye. The sphere itself is virtually unknown, which is unsurprising as it bears no resemblance to what it once was; even the once bright and proud sun is now a tortured and tainted thing, the portal at its heart twisted from its moorings to open on a place of nightmare. It now bears a new and terrible name, a place so forsaken that astrogators barely credit its existence outside of being some kind of horror story to tell to young children. It has become known by the name for the unearthly and terrible flame at its heart.

*Gnomes*
*Creator* Arumdina
*Homeworld* Colurranur
*Home Sphere* The Broken Sphere

One of the original races of the 18 worlds of the first crystal sphere, the gnomes were peerless masters of their arcane practice, and through their efforts the magical ship known as the Spelljammer awakened. The destruction of the first sphere, still the only known crystal sphere to ever suffer damage in any fashion, annihilated the gnome homeworld.

*Halflings*
*Creator* Yondalla
*Homeworld* Athas
*Home Sphere* The Crimson Sphere

The halflings have a curious history, as those who are encountered on the many worlds of the multiverse are known for their cheerful attitudes and the faith they place in Yondalla and her children. Those who remained on their homeworld took from her bounty and gathered unto themselves the power to shape life, a gift that she should never have granted. With this knowledge and power, the original life-shapers considered themselves her peers and turned away from her, prompting their own goddess to sorrowfully depart from the sphere with those who wanted to leave it behind, never to return. The fate of Athas is well-known, and the magic unleashed by the ancient life-shapers and their successors has so tainted the sphere that no god will bother trying to extend their reach to Athas again.

*Humans*
*Creator* None
*Homeworld* None
*Home Sphere* None

Uniquely among the major races, humans were not originally created by any patron deity; they are the byproduct of mating between the reigar and the lakshu. Blessed with the imagination and free spirits of the former and the passion and ardor of the latter, humans became the standard template for deities looking to populate their worlds with potential faithful - their essences tied to no deity, and their minds open to providing exactly the kind of faith that powers desire most.

*Orcs*
*Creator* Gruumsh
*Homeworld* See below
*Home Sphere* See below

Where exactly the orcs originated is not known for certain, but it is widely understood that Gruumsh is ancient. Just how ancient is something of a debate, though one theory posits that he dates from the time of the first sphere; that his creations were the ruthless conquerors whose depredations provoked the birth of the Spelljammer itself; and that after the total destruction of that sphere, Gruumsh chased any vestiges of the life magic that created the incredible living ship across the whole of the Prime Material, seeking to seize it and make use of it to forge a world for his orcs. According to this theory, one of these remnants of the ancient magic was drawn to the fey deities, where it was collected by a proto-deity looking to split off from the fey and forge its own path and people. Gruumsh came upon this godling and demanded that the power he desired be yielded unto him, but was denied, for the godling had fused the life magic into his own essence and used it to create a people of his own. The godling would not share any of this magic, for he found the orcs detestable and was unwilling to risk that his children might become like them.

It is suggested that Gruumsh went to war against this godling, and came away without an eye; that this wound so enraged him that Gruumsh forgot entirely about the original reasons for the conflict between them, and spent millennia plotting vengeance. He turned the consort of the godling against him, precipitating a terrible treachery, and when even this attempt was insufficient, the orc god struck against the homeworld of his rival's children with such fury and wanton cruelty that those people scattered to the stars in fear of losing their home. This fear proved justified when the shamans of Gruumsh worked a magic of nightmare and profound evil, bringing forth the naked and unbridled fury of the One-Eyed God in the form of a tainted sun, transforming the lifegiving elemental flames into an atrocity of screaming green light.


How's that?




> Additionally, they can also come into being as progeny of existing deities* (or existing deity-like beings**) or ascend to godhood from mortality***


Accurate.




> A perhaps more telling example however is that of Lolth. She's the goddess of Drow, but predates drow as a group. Prior to that she was presumably just the goddess of spiders.


Elven goddess of fate and destiny, actually.




> Did you mean demodand (or both demodands and tanar'ri), the question was about evolving into demodands


Oh hey, *that's* where I left that sleep deprivation!  :Small Big Grin: 

But yes, I did mean that.




> In any case, what's the deal witn Lolth in this regard? I recall hearing in a couple places that she spent time as a specifically tanar'ri archdemon between her fall and her reascension back to godhood. How did that happen? Did she transform into a tanar'ri, was she a tanar'ri to begin with and Corellon had for some reason still thought it was a good reason to marry her, or did Corellon straight-up kill her after she tried to assassinate him and she became a tanar'ri the normal way and then worked her way back up from the very bottom?


Didn't kill her, no; she was an elven goddess, grew corrupt and tried to overthrow him, and he ejected her from the pantheon and cast her down, stripping almost all of her divinity in the process and reducing her to a demonic being - a demon lord, who mustered her strength and regained her full divinity.




> From what we've seen, Lolth's association with spiders came after her fall.


Nah, she always had that, but in the past it was pretty benign - only after her fall did she start making driders and other spidery abominations.

What I wonder the most about is: Vhaeraun (and Eilistrae, but voluntary) was given the boot together with his mother for conspiring with her. Why exactly wasn't he stripped of his divinity? Had Corellon just time to cool down before dealing with his wayward son, or what?[/QUOTE]




> Can a god really strip another god of their divinity?  If so, it clearly didn't take, as she's unquestionably still a deity now.


I mean, he didn't just push a button. He went to war and they fought and he prevailed, and the damage he inflicted was enough that he could use his station as pantheon head and chief racial deity to expel her and her portfolio. In short, he hit her so hard she stopped being a goddess for a while. It was not fun and not something any god would do lightly - the only reason he did it at all was because she would not stop coming for him until either he was dead or she was denied the further ability to do so.




> The upcoming Thor movie got me thinking: are there many specific entities that have a goal of slaying deities?


Not a ton, but there are a few, Sertrous wants to unravel the concept of belief in the divine, the Athar would love to get people to stop worshipping gods at all, Ma Yuan is a creature that threatens deities, Pandorym was tasked with eating them... 




> In this scenario, I'm supposing a cruel Elven archwizard who keeps it around to use it as test fodder for a variety of debilitating spells to ensure that they work appropriately on creatures of the Abyss and to use it as a sideshow attraction to demonstrate said spells, for ~500 years or so to track long-term effects on immortals.


Still fairly doubtful. 




> Interesting. Do they view powerful respawning undead, such as liches or vampires, as inherently inferior as well due to their unchanging nature?


They view undead as being inferior because they think everything that isn't them is inferior.

----------


## Bohandas

> bringing forth the naked and unbridled fury of the One-Eyed God in the form of a tainted sun, transforming the lifegiving elemental flames into an atrocity of screaming green light.


Is this a reftence to _Homestuck_ and/or _Exalted_?

----------


## Tzardok

> Is this a reftence to _Homestuck_ and/or _Exalted_?


I'm pretty sure he's talking about Witchlight.

----------


## afroakuma

> Is this a reftence to _Homestuck_ and/or _Exalted_?


Definitely not.




> I'm pretty sure he's talking about Witchlight.


I'm pretty sure he is too.

----------


## Tzardok

I thought about how this origin for Witchlight could imply that the Misty Isle could be in that sphere, but then I looked the Isle up and saw that it is solely a Greyhawk location. Mah, happens.

By the way, the elves are kinda lacking in imagination. Their new homesphere is called Seldarspace too.

We've already covered the effects the fall of elven destiny had on the race as a whole. I'm wondering now what could've happened if someone else had fallen. Hanali's fall would have propably twisted the elves into ugly shapes. Aerdrie's fall would have curtailed their fertility. But what would've been the effect of Sehanine going the demon route?
Also, any idea what Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's portfolio/role in the pantheon used to be before their exile?

Finally, the inter-stellar empire that produced the vestige Dantalion. Could you maybe conjecture on where it would fit into Spelljammer and its timeline?

----------


## Bohandas

Doesn't the Misty Isle move around?

----------


## Thealtruistorc

> How's that?


This was very helpful and inspiring for my own work. Of course, it invites a few new question.

1. Are all humans in the Crystal Spheres descended from the Reigar? They weren't discussed in any of the Forgotten Realms books, which seemed to imply that humanity evolved naturally on Faerun. 

2. How does Yondalla abandoning the halflings of Athas work? Surely she could still draw power from the Pyreen given that Halflings are part of her portfolio, or did she worry about being altered or corrupted by their faith? How were the Pyreen altered by lack of a god?

----------


## afroakuma

> I thought about how this origin for Witchtlight could imply that the Misty Isle could be in that sphere, but then I looked the Isle up and saw that it is solely a Greyhawk location. Mah, happens.


I mean, it definitely wouldn't *still* be in that sphere.




> By the way, the elves are kinda lacking in imagination. Their new homesphere is called Seldarspace too.


Mm. Don't much care for that, but it is what it is, and it aligns with the overall principle that the elves don't want to admit their homeworld is destroyed.




> But what would've been the effect of Sehanine going the demon route?


Madunno, probably sever the ties between the moon and elf magic, make them less imaginative, unwilling to wander, more fearful of the grave...




> Also, any idea what Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's portfolio/role in the pantheon used to be before their exile?


Eilistraee's would have been largely similar to what it is now; she was a demigoddess of freedom, passion, swordplay, and dance. Vhaeraun was likely a territorial combat god who was tasked with opposing orcs, goblins, and other foes of the elves through whatever methods possible, including sabotage and thievery.




> Finally, the inter-stellar empire that produced the vestige Danthalion. Could you maybe conjecture on where it would fit into Spelljammer and its timeline?


Not presently, we'd have to put a pin in that one for now.




> 1. Are all humans in the Crystal Spheres descended from the Reigar? They weren't discussed in any of the Forgotten Realms books, which seemed to imply that humanity evolved naturally on Faerun.


The original humans were; the template for humanity was observed and copied wholecloth by countless new gods wanting to populate worlds with a suitable people to give them worship. That includes the gods of Toril. 




> 2. How does Yondalla abandoning the halflings of Athas work?


They rejected her, not the other way around. They considered her unnecessary given their vast powers, and she walked away from the world in sorrow that her generosity had produced such arrogance. 




> Surely she could still draw power from the Pyreen given that Halflings are part of her portfolio


No, she couldn't; the pyreen don't worship her. Their predecessors didn't worship her. It's been a *very* long time since the original rhulisti turned their backs on their own gods, long enough that those who ended the Blue Age barely remembered they had ever had any.




> How were the Pyreen altered by lack of a god?


They weren't, really. Not in any physical sense. Spiritually it certainly increased the overall arrogance that led to them messing up over and over again.

----------


## unseenmage

I was musing about shadowplane connection to the modern world over in this thread and had some cosmological wondering.

Say an evil aligned race from the shadow plane wanders into a universe that not only doesn't have alignments, it doesnt have deities or an afterlife either. No magic even. 

Is that member of that race still evil? Is their racial evil contained in them? In their culture? 
Or is it more of a universal compulsion. The creature is from a race that it's home universe says is evil, so it does evil. 
Could it be a combination of the two where they're born evil but eventually adopt cultural evil as their own at some moral crossroads or another?

I'm wondering how likely little evil shadow plane folk might be to find the luxuries of modern day earth and just kinda get good and drunk on convenience and chill out. 

Or are they doomed to stealing lost children and pets so as to commit unspeakable rituals or whatever evil suits their fancy regardless of how quickly that gets them found and exterminated.

----------


## Silly Name

> Say an evil aligned race from the shadow plane wanders into a universe that not only doesn't have alignments, it doesnt have deities or an afterlife either. No magic even. 
> 
> Is that member of that race still evil? Is their racial evil contained in them? In their culture?


Why a certain creature is Evil depends on the exact nature of the creature - a fiend is Evil because it's made of Evil. Many drows are Evil because their culture is and they're a product of said culture, but they're not innately Evil in the same way the fiend is. 




> I'm wondering how likely little evil shadow plane folk might be to find the luxuries of modern day earth and just kinda get good and drunk on convenience and chill out.


This would entirely depend on the psychology of the creatures, both in general and for individuals. I see no reason for the hypothetical shift to a world without alignments, deities and afterlives to radically alter the way those creatures think and act - except, perhaps, as a way for existential horror to creep in their psyche as they struggle to adapt to a universe so radically different from the one they know.




> Or are they doomed to stealing lost children and pets so as to commit unspeakable rituals or whatever evil suits their fancy regardless of how quickly that gets them found and exterminated.


Again, if we assume those creatures are prone to such acts already, and back on their homeworld they do indeed indulge those urges... why would they stop just because they find themselves in a world that operates under different rules?

----------


## Thealtruistorc

> The original humans were; the template for humanity was observed and copied wholecloth by countless new gods wanting to populate worlds with a suitable people to give them worship. That includes the gods of Toril.


Interesting. Are there any races which weren't the product of divine creation or production by another race? Mortal beings which formed their own gods later rather than being created by some kind of patron?

----------


## Tzardok

Do Paladin variants of different alignments make sense in Ravenloft?

----------


## enderlord99

> Interesting. Are there any races which weren't the product of divine creation or production by another race? Mortal beings which formed their own gods later rather than being created by some kind of patron?


Yes: Aboleths.

----------


## Tzardok

Aboleths are kinda borderline. They are the product of the Blood Queen who's close enough to being a deity to count, and they aren't really mortal, on account of not dying of old age.

----------


## Caelestion

The Sidhelien of the Birthright setting are ageless Elves who supposedly formed out of the elements and explicitly shun the teachings of the gods.  No creator deity is ever mentioned for them.

----------


## Thurbane

Speaking of creation myths etc. what's the canon for Mongrelfolk?

I believe in 2E they may have an official deity, but also in 1E/2E I think there was a source (maybe Dragon mag) that had them as the result of a wizard experimenting on various humanoids?

----------


## afroakuma

> Interesting. Are there any races which weren't the product of divine creation or production by another race?


Nothing comes to mind. Convergent evolution isn't much of an option in a cosmology where souls are an explicit thingamabob and gods want worship. If you want things not beholden to a god, plenty of those; if you're asking about things evolving all on their own without any outside intelligent agency, there are certainly some weird creatures that have done so but they don't worship any gods; most lack the capacity in its entirety.

Then we get to creatures of alien or no known origin, like the keepers or the grell; but they don't worship deities.

Anyway, assuming you're referring to evolution, I'm not aware off the cuff of any noteworthy D&D race that can be said to have evolved without outside interference and started believing in gods of their own accord. If you're allowing for some alternative, I'd love to know what that might be.




> The Sidhelien of the Birthright setting are ageless Elves who supposedly formed out of the elements and explicitly shun the teachings of the gods.  No creator deity is ever mentioned for them.


They're definitely a distinctive elven subrace, but also they're elves. Mixed with a sprinkling of something fey - to the point that they're honestly closer to the 4E/5E "eladrin" than normal elves. In any event, they're not local.

----------


## Caelestion

You don't think that they're native to Aebrynis?

----------


## Tzardok

> Blame the sibriexes, they sculpted tanar'ri into useful forms. Even with that in mind, it's worth noting that demons *are* a quite chaotic bunch - it's not for nothing that we used to use generic "types" to describe approximate stature and power level rather than species names. As for why it still holds, unlike the slaad who are magically forced into progressing in a certain way, for demons it's got more to do with the endless cycle of bullying - you see the thing that torments you and say "I want to *be* that" and self-actualize your way up the chain.
> 
> Demons certainly deserve more mechanical support for their chaotic natures; I'll get around to homebrewing it eventually. Gotta love all the material I create for a dead system


You know, this (together with the Spawning Stone) implies that the Eladrin's forms are also externally imposed. I wonder how that happened. Maybe they just decided by themselves to be defined, for the sake of better... yeah, I got nothing.

----------


## afroakuma

> Speaking of creation myths etc. what's the canon for Mongrelfolk?
> 
> I believe in 2E they may have an official deity, but also in 1E/2E I think there was a source (maybe Dragon mag) that had them as the result of a wizard experimenting on various humanoids?


Dragon Magazine absolutely did do that, because why not muddy the waters on them. It's certainly plausible that some strains of mongrelfolk arose this way; merlanes are nothing if not constantly in pursuit of insane experiments, after all. However, the vast majority of them are simply the result of a *lot* of crossbreeding concentrating particular traits over others. Meriadar did *not* make them, but conversely it's hard to conclusively state whether Meriadar predated them and adopted them, or whether he arose due to their beliefs. Unless you follow afro-canon in which case Meriadar definitely came first and adopted them.




> You don't think that they're native to Aebrynis?


Ehh, yes and no. "Emerging from the elements" is pretty darn silly as a creation myth. The truth about the Sidhelien is they're not really elves in any traditional sense; they're humanoid-ized fey created when the Shadow World split off from Aebrynis proper. As a result, the race itself is "native" to Aebrynis, but their ancestors were fey of the Seelie and Unseelie Courts.




> You know, this (together with the Spawning Stone) implies that the Eladrin's forms are also externally imposed. I wonder how that happened. Maybe they just decided by themselves to be defined, for the sake of better... yeah, I got nothing.


Yes, ish. The true form of any given eladrin is its nonhumanoid form; they very much enjoy taking on and using their humanoid forms (shiere to the point that they are very bad at using their natural form and averse to transforming into it) but a ghaele is actually a sphere of rainbow colors, a bralani is actually a sentient whirlwind, and so on. In my sketched-out plans to draw up the predecessors of the eladrins, the eodath possessed "forms of inspiration" cognate to an obyrith's form of madness.

----------


## Tzardok

Ooh, eodath. Nice to have a name for them. Does that mean something or did you just invent a nice sounding word?

Also, I think you may have overlooked one of my questions. I'll repost it:

Do the Paladin variants of different alignments make sense in Ravenloft?

----------


## Alea

True 10th-level (and higher) spells were banned in the Forgotten Realms after Karsuss Folly. Epic spells are treated as 10th-level, and you can metamagic spells to 10th-level and beyond with Improved Spell Capacity (and with Improved Heighten Spell, they could count in all ways as 10th-level or higher), but they arent the same as the older spells of the Netherese. (_Secrets of the Magister_ and _Lost Empires of Faerûn_ disagree on how thorough Mystras ban was, likely because they ret-conned matters to facilitate the transition to 3e in the absence of _Die, Vecna, Die!_ in their silly World Tree cosmology.)

So my question: did such 10th-level or higher spells ever exist _anywhere else_? That is, did the events of _Die, Vecna, Die!_ actually prevent anyone from casting 10th-level or higher spells, or did Mystras ban already nix that option for everyone whod previously had it, because it had only been a thing in Realmspace to begin with?

----------


## Thealtruistorc

What's the dividing line between an Elder Evil and a powerful evil deity? Why does Tharizdun count as a deity while similar entities like Atropus and Dendar fall in the Elder Evil camp? Is the difference in their origins? Their perceptions? Their followings?

----------


## enderlord99

> True 10th-level (and higher) spells were banned in the Forgotten Realms after Karsuss Folly. Epic spells are treated as 10th-level, and you can metamagic spells to 10th-level and beyond with Improved Spell Capacity (and with Improved Heighten Spell, they could count in all ways as 10th-level or higher), but they arent the same as the older spells of the Netherese. (_Secrets of the Magister_ and _Lost Empires of Faerûn_ disagree on how thorough Mystras ban was, likely because they ret-conned matters to facilitate the transition to 3e in the absence of _Die, Vecna, Die!_ in their silly World Tree cosmology.)
> 
> So my question: did such 10th-level or higher spells ever exist _anywhere else_? That is, did the events of _Die, Vecna, Die!_ actually prevent anyone from casting 10th-level or higher spells, or did Mystras ban already nix that option for everyone whod previously had it, because it had only been a thing in Realmspace to begin with?


I think there are some in old _Spelljammer_ products, like one that forces a Crystal Sphere to open a portal-thingy and another that prevents it.

----------


## Tzardok

> What's the dividing line between an Elder Evil and a powerful evil deity? Why does Tharizdun count as a deity while similar entities like Atropus and Dendar fall in the Elder Evil camp? Is the difference in their origins? Their perceptions? Their followings?


Afro did talk about that in an earlier thread, and it essentially boils down to: DM's decision. Elder Evil (in the sense of the eponymous sourcebook) simply means a campaign driving super threat whose emergence will spell doom for the world. They don't have anything else in common. So, there is literally nothing that prevents you from statting for example Tharizdun as an Elder Evil, with a sign and aall that other stuff (in the 5th thread, Afro helped a guy stat the demon lord Abraxas as an Elder Evil).

By the way, Dendar isn't an Elder Evil (unless you statt her as one), but an elder evil, i.e. a large ominous thing lurking around in background lore.

----------


## afroakuma

> Ooh, eodath. Nice to have a name for them. Does that mean something or did you just invent a nice sounding word?


Just made up a word.




> Also, I think you may have overlooked one of my questions. I'll repost it:
> 
> Do the Paladin variants of different alignments make sense in Ravenloft?


Freedom, yes. Tyranny and Slaughter, definitely not for PCs, since either one is a great way to get the Dark Powers looking at you. For villains, certainly.




> So my question: did such 10th-level or higher spells ever exist _anywhere else_?


"True dweomers" are noted to be "effectively 10th level" and also addressed directly as "10th level" in a few places. Beyond that, 10th level spells are found on one other known setting besides the Forgotten Realms - Dark Sun, where they were majestically terrifying spells used by defilers to do really horrible awful things, up to and including becoming a dragon (the Athas variety, not a conventional dragon).




> What's the dividing line between an Elder Evil and a powerful evil deity? Why does Tharizdun count as a deity while similar entities like Atropus and Dendar fall in the Elder Evil camp? Is the difference in their origins? Their perceptions? Their followings?


I mean, it's funny you pick Tharizdun, because his avatar Shothragot is in fact an Elder Evil and functions the same way they do.

Essentially, though, an Elder Evil isn't necessarily *not* an evil deity - the major things that identify an Elder Evil are these:

 Presence asserted on the Material Plane
 Entrenched presence on said plane
 Restrained in some way from directly acting on the Material Plane despite its presence there
 Any exposure to the Elder Evil's presence causes disruptions to the entire world on which its presence is being felt, known as its sign
 All Elder Evils possess some capability to veil themselves from divine detection, a property known as anathematic secrecy

So looking at the ones that are known to exist, Atropus is physically remote, Father Llymic is trapped in magical ice, the Hulks of Zoretha are dormant and require energy to awaken, the Leviathan is slumbering, Pandorym is trapped in crystal and severed from its body, Ragnorra's connection to the Material Plane is being created by her cultists through feeding her a "trail" of living materials to draw her toward the target world, Sertrous bound his essence to the Material Plane and is actually attempting to rebuild himself in the Abyss via his pocket demiplane layer, Kyuss got himself stuck in an obelisk, and Zargon is a cranky mud puddle.

Point is, evil gods and demon lords and the like can also operate as Elder Evils, but it requires that they make a serious commitment to embodying their power on the Prime, more than just dispatching an aspect or a temporary avatar. If you happen to have a particular evil widget you'd like me to describe as an Elder Evil, I'd be happy to.




> I think there are some in old _Spelljammer_ products, like one that forces a Crystal Sphere to open a portal-thingy and another that prevents it.


Oddly that was an FR product.

----------


## Bohandas

> What's the dividing line between an Elder Evil and a powerful evil deity? Why does Tharizdun count as a deity while similar entities like Atropus and Dendar fall in the Elder Evil camp? Is the difference in their origins? Their perceptions? Their followings?


I don't think the two preclude each other. Kyuss is both

----------


## Thealtruistorc

> ]
> Essentially, though, an Elder Evil isn't necessarily *not* an evil deity - the major things that identify an Elder Evil are these:
> 
>  Presence asserted on the Material Plane
>  Entrenched presence on said plane
>  Restrained in some way from directly acting on the Material Plane despite its presence there
>  Any exposure to the Elder Evil's presence causes disruptions to the entire world on which its presence is being felt, known as its sign
>  All Elder Evils possess some capability to veil themselves from divine detection, a property known as anathematic secrecy
> 
> ...


Actually, there is one that I've wondered about writing up as an Elder Evil: The god-slaying incarnation of Raistlin Majere which is discussed in Legends of the Twins. Given that his presence displays signs on the material plane (magic storms, constellations changing, magic breaking down), I think he would qualify as an Elder Evil.

Not sure how he would acquire anathematic secrecy (or how any creature does, for that matter), but I'm sure he could find a way.

----------


## Thurbane

> Actually, there is one that I've wondered about writing up as an Elder Evil: The god-slaying incarnation of Raistlin Majere which is discussed in Legends of the Twins. Given that his presence displays signs on the material plane (magic storms, constellations changing, magic breaking down), I think he would qualify as an Elder Evil.
> 
> Not sure how he would acquire anathematic secrecy (or how any creature does, for that matter), but I'm sure he could find a way.


I think that would make a great basis for a new Elder Evil!

----------


## afroakuma

> Actually, there is one that I've wondered about writing up as an Elder Evil: The god-slaying incarnation of Raistlin Majere which is discussed in Legends of the Twins. Given that his presence displays signs on the material plane (magic storms, constellations changing, magic breaking down), I think he would qualify as an Elder Evil.


I'd dispute that given that those "signs" are more consequence of his actions than his presence (stars go out as he murders gods, magic is disrupted by the ridiculous spells he's casting, etc.)




> Not sure how he would acquire anathematic secrecy (or how any creature does, for that matter), but I'm sure he could find a way.


I mean, in the case of that alternate future Raistlin, pretty sure he just killed gods until there were none left to know about him.  :Small Tongue: 




> I think that would make a great basis for a new Elder Evil!


I'd dispute this too; while Raistlin is a favorite of mine, the whole point of his alternate future self is that he runs out of goals and has nothing left to him in any way. He also fails one of the essential qualifications in that he's not restrained, and hence is not going to "approach" anything. Finally, of course, there's the question of what he'd even be coming forth to terrorize, or for that matter how any mortal could stop him given that he decked the gods.

----------


## Thurbane

Fair enough. Been a looooong time since I read the latter books...

----------


## redking

> I'd dispute this too; while Raistlin is a favorite of mine, the whole point of his alternate future self is that he runs out of goals and has nothing left to him in any way.


How about this version of Raistlin being a vestige? He would seem to qualify for it. This version of Raistlin existed until a time travelling kender changed the timeline. Care to try your hand at the vestige Raistlin?

----------


## afroakuma

> How about this version of Raistlin being a vestige? He would seem to qualify for it. This version of Raistlin existed until a time travelling kender changed the timeline. Care to try your hand at the vestige Raistlin?


I don't see why that would be a thing; among other things, the dead future Raistlin has zero reason to respond to binders; further, he's from an alternate timeline that never came to pass, so he doesn't belong in any kind of interaction with our multiverse.

Finally, of course, I made an offer to do up an Elder Evil, not a vestige. If you want a Dragonlance-themed vestige, I've got you covered.

----------


## Tzardok

I know a great evil that makes sense as an Elder Evil: 4th Edition.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Thurbane

Speaking of vesiges, I once (with some help from the people at the WotC D&D forums) homebrewed a vestige version of Sakatha (the BBEG from Tomb of the Lizard King). Lost all the info in the forum purge though. The worst part is someone cooked up some awesome fluff of the manifestation, which was far more creative than anything I could come up with.

Actually, scratch that, I think I reposted the fluff on the Enworld forum, so it's not lost forever.

*Spoiler*
Show




> _In the seal in front of you, the ground begins to melt and bubble, like something is hiding beneath a muddy puddle. From this mess, a powerfully built lizardman slowly rises, head bowed, as if being pushed up...and indeed he is. As his feet are pressed upward, you see that Sakatha is standing atop a pile of skulls and bones of various humanoids. The creature slowly opens his eyes, revealing that he has nothing but black blood leaking down, and the left side of his face is skeletal, the flesh torn off. When Sakatha first speaks, the skulls at his feet cackle until Sakatha commands them to silence._





NIfft (same Nifft as these forums?) also helped with the vestige abilities. I think this was help to recreate something the WotC forum purge destroyed.

*Spoiler*
Show




> *Jaws of the Vampire* -- You gain a bite attack (1d4/1d6 for small/medium) as a primary or secondary natural attack; if you already have a bite attack, naturally or otherwise, you may instead choose to increase the damage of your other bite attack by two size categories. If your EBL is at least 11, your bite is considered Silver. If your EBL is at least 15, your bite is considered Silver and Lawful. You do not gain this benefit if you do not show Sakatha's sign.
> 
> - - -
> 
> Vampires and Lizardfolk both have tough skin. Let's give some Natural Armor and DR.
> 
> *Scaly Ward* -- You gain a Natural Armor bonus equal to one-half your Constitution bonus (rounded down), and DR/silver equal to one-half your Charisma bonus (rounded down).
> 
> - - -
> ...







...sorry for the side track, but I love re-imagining characters from earlier editions as vestiges or elder evils.

I'll throw in a question to get back on track: are there any official vestiges that have defined links to any official elder evils?

----------


## afroakuma

> I'll throw in a question to get back on track: are there any official vestiges that have defined links to any official elder evils?


Considering who the canonical Elder Evils are...

 Atropus was made up wholecloth and has no ties to any known vestige.
 Father Llymic is from the Far Realm, which very very very thinly ties him to Otiax insofar as Otiax is theorized to have something to do with the Far Realm, but that's one hell of a granfalloon.
 The Hulks of Zoretha were made up wholecloth and have no ties to any known vestige.
 The Leviathan is a sleeping primordial being and has no ties to any known vestige.
 Pandorym wasn't around long enough to get involved with anything that might have become a vestige, and anything it gets its "hands" on wouldn't have enough of itself left to create a vestige.
 Ragnorra was made up wholecloth and has no ties to any known vestige.
 Sertrous is an obyrith and never interacted with anything that might have become a vestige.
 Shothragot has ties to Tharizdun, but Tharizdun has no known ties to any vestige.
 Kyuss has no ties to any known vestige.
 Zargon is a cranky mud puddle.

----------


## enderlord99

>  Zargon is a cranky mud puddle.


...and *not* an Ancient Baatorian, as has been long-established in this thread.

----------


## Tzardok

Celestial are able to be channeled. Fiends can develop the ability to possess mortals. Do the neutral exemplars have any comparable capabilities?

----------


## Fable Wright

You have, in the past, implied that the Baatezu push lies that they seized Baator from the ancient Baatorians, or that they pretend to live in a realm that was empty when they got there.

You have not, to my knowledge, shared your thoughts on the true history of the Baatorian genocide.

Given the fact that Nupperibos continue to spawn and that Asmodeus chooses to fight the Blood War inside of Baator when possible (though this might be a 5eism), instead of in an external plane, is it that the Baatezu are in fact prisoners of their plane? An Angelic strike force that came to fight against the Baatorians, were trapped, and corrupted until they fell from grace?

If so, how could they have seized the plane despite being a finite number against an infinite army? Seizing the means of soul production only goes so far given the requirement to hold it.
If not, what _is_ the story of how the Baatezu seized hell from the Baatorians?

----------


## Khedrac

> Asmodeus chooses to fight the Blood War inside of Baator when possible (though this might be a 5eism), instead of in an external plane


This bit is actually fairly simple tactics.  Baator, particularly Avernus (the entry layer) has a lot of really hot features where occupants are exposed to considerable amount of fire (or heat) damage.  Since devils have fire immunity as a trait but demons only have fire resistance they can get quite a bit of tactical advantage usign these parts of Avernus.
(Paraphrased from somewhere in the 3.5 Fiendish Codexes iirc.)

----------


## Tzardok

That one was about the defensive methods of Baator. The vast majority of Blood War battles happen in Hades, on Oinos.

----------


## Fable Wright

Yep, it was very definitely a 5e-ism that made very little sense to me.

Quoth the second Fiendish Codex:



> Against any enemy, devils fight cleverly. First and foremost,
> they try to fight on any ground except their home plane, where
> they die permanently if they are slain. Thus, they spend a
> great deal of time trying to ensure that battles occur at times
> and places of their own choosingpreferably when the foe
> occupies lower ground or faces other terrain disadvantages.


Quoth the very bizarre passage from MToF:



> The devils view fighting demons on Avernus as a net
> benefit for their cause. Although most devils slain there
> are destroyed forever, ready access to supplies and sup-
> port from the Nine Hells tilts the tide heavily against in-
> vading demons. Also, the prospect of a permanent death
> compels the devils fighting on Avernus to obtain the 
> utmost readiness and coordination. [...]
> 
> If the devils ex-
> ...


So, uh, forget that bit.

----------


## afroakuma

> Celestial are able to be channeled. Fiends can develop the ability to possess mortals. Do the neutral exemplars have any comparable capabilities?


Not inherently aware of any. Of course, you can get a bit of slaad inside you... but that tends to go very poorly.  :Small Tongue: 

In general, none of them would *want* to - slaad like doing their own thing too much to want to ride shotgun in someone else's body; modrons have negative interest in making deals or getting involved with mortal affairs that do not concern them; and rilmani are famously neutral.




> You have not, to my knowledge, shared your thoughts on the true history of the Baatorian genocide.


I don't think much of a "genocide" happened. I believe there was a long and terrible war against a profound force of evil, and the baatorians watched the celestial beings fighting against them becoming corrupted by their own methods getting darker and harsher with no small amount of glee. Ultimately, having determined the evil they so prized would not be purged from Baator, the vast majority of mature baatorians elected to ascend (descend?) to a new form of existence, one in which they could endlessly savor corruption and suffering.

A small number chose a different path, for various reasons; some delighted too much in the personal touch and elected to stick around. Some were merely content to enjoy their existences and prey on the newcomers, and these tended to lair in lower Hells where they could exert a nameless fear over the baatezu. Their leader, whose name I cannot say, challenged Asmodeus to confront him alone. Asmodeus emerged from the confrontation claiming victory, but then of course there was still the matter of the baatorian leader's daughter. Though the Lord Below claimed that she was allowed to survive as "spoils of war" and that he elected to give her as consort to his then-ally Mephistopheles, the truth is that part of the bargain he struck to take the throne involved her presence, and she elected to side with Mephistopheles over Asmodeus. As a message.

The original leaders of the celestial host became the first of the Nine, and their first power struggles ended with Asmodeus triumphant, as we all know. While most of his most trusted lieutenants had refused to challenge him, one upstart used the void created by the Lord Below's solo confrontation with the Adversary to claim dominion over the whole kit n'kaboodle. His name was we're not going to say what his name *was* but when he got demoted from boss of all the things to "have the Sixth as a consolation prize you smelly thing you" he was dubbed Beherit and ceased bearing light, if you know what I mean.

Now for something fun, I realized I arbitrarily stopped doing this a while back and I thought I'd kick it off again. Here's the archive list, if anyone knows of any that I missed, please do let me know.

*Spoiler: Already Made*
Show

*Acheron*
The Archives of Affliction

*Baator*
Castle of the Shuddering Rift

*Carceri*
The Peeler of Pelts
The Swamps of the Shrieking Tree

*Elemental Plane of Air*
Lasher clouds

*Elemental Plane of Earth*
The Ponos Cataract
Rasashadda

*Gehenna*
Castle of the Shuddering Rift

*Hades*
Castle of the Shuddering Rift
Feighetskog
The Thief of Years

*Pandemonium*
The Spire of Shattered Legs

*Para-Elemental Plane of Ooze*
The Glistening City

*Plane of Shadow*
The Web of Stolen Stars

*Ysgard*
Glaesisvettir


*Spoiler: Afan al-Ramad*
Show

Not a lot of things scare a fire elemental, let alone an efreeti, and invaders from the Prime Material Plane are normally quite low on the list of possible concerns. The environment of the Elemental Plane of Fire is so inhospitable to the majority of Prime life-forms that even with the aid of powerful magic to survive, their capacity to meaningfully threaten the locals is generally pretty trivial. Generally.

Of course, invasive pests succeed precisely because they bring something into an ecosystem that has no context for them and no response to them. Such is the case with the sporebatsFF that were shunted into the Plane of Fire by a wizard trying to destroy the predatory fungal creatures, one who did not do his homework on them beforehand. While a few of the creatures were unable to adapt, most thrived in the environment (as sporebats are fireproof) and rapidly came to dominate the immediate area's ecosystem, slaughtering mephits, azers, and efreet and using their corpses as fertilizer for new generations of sporebats more adapted to the Plane of Fire. The surreal result, over centuries, is the existence of a bizarre anaerobic "forest" miles in diameter haunting a chunk of the Plane of Fire. Known to the efreet as Afan al-Ramad, it is a place of death and fear for the locals, who avoid it with great prejudice while fearfully looking out for more of the predatory fungus fiends.

Naturally, such a location has captured the imagination of more than one rogue druid hoping to protect her wildlands against forest fires. Extracting spores from Afan al-Ramad is a dangerous business, but even worse might be letting the infestation loose on a Material Plane world, one which is unprepared for the scourge of flying fiery fungus.


*Spoiler: Skiffers*
Show

The Negative Energy Plane is a deadly place for the unprepared traveller, and not much more welcoming to those who are prepared. Largely devoid of any kind of inhabitants except for the occasional undead, the endless night of the plane does nothing to suggest any form of ecosystem.

Nevertheless, some truly unusual beings do call this place home, and among their number are the bahar al-Layl, or "skiffers," who ply narrow boatlike vessels through the vast entropic abyss, homing in on anything that arrives in the plane that doesn't belong there. Cloaked in a reflective illusion that makes them appear to be emaciated grey-skinned sailors of the same race as the one viewing them, they are in truth aberrations with one arm, one long twisting anterior limb that links them to the "rudder" of their vessel, and no head to speak of. Skiffers are almost always true neutral in alignment, though this does not exactly make them safe travelling companions - their diet is entropic potential, and while they savor the flavor created the longer something endures the Negative Energy Plane's hungering void, they do not truly feel satiated until entropy has caught up with whatever has been escaping it.

Skiffers can be negotiated with, though they are poor conversationalists, and will provide aid for a time to those visiting the dark plane. They have the natural ability to impart _protection from negative energy_ to their guests. A single skiffer's vessel can comfortably accommodate two Medium-size creatures besides the skiffer itself.

----------


## Tzardok

Apropos negative plane, is it known which entities forged the Dead Truce with the Dustmen and what they get out of the deal?

----------


## afroakuma

> Apropos negative plane, is it known which entities forged the Dead Truce with the Dustmen and what they get out of the deal?


Nope.

*Spoiler: Yirtika Caverns*
Show

The caves the dao call _yirtika_, sometimes referred to as _grandfather caverns_, can be found from time to time in explorations of the Elemental Plane of Earth. Dao employ slaves to harvest gemstones from these stalagmite-filled pockets, which have a distressingly high incidence of mysterious fatalities. The gemstones of yirtika caves include not only regular gems, but also the truly rare yirtika crystals, which require a DC 30 Appraise check to tell apart from other crystals. When properly treated with exposure to cold for 10 hours or more, a yirtika crystal can be worked by a master artisan into a gemstone that can be employed as an additional focus for spells with the Earth descriptor to increase their caster level by 1 and their DC by 2 (if applicable).

While highly valued by dwarves, gnomes, and dao, yirtika crystals are a deadly commodity to seek out. The stone columns within these pockets, the so-called _grandfathers_, seem to possess some ability to bring down misfortune on those who trespass in their lands. They are not earth elementals of any known kind, but it is evident that when the local wildlife take pains to avoid these pockets in the plane, something horrid is amiss. That "something" has been described by survivors as anything from massive rocky serpents rising from the ground to taloned appendages reaching out from the walls to crush interlopers. Sages have attributed these tales to half-remembered encounters with Material Plane cave predators such as darkmantles, lurkers above, or ropers; whatever the case, one thing is always certain - that those who fail to properly chill a yirtika crystal harvested from a grandfather cavern usually turn up dead.


*Spoiler: Whisperwind Shafts*
Show

A strange and unwelcoming phenomenon found in some of the more rugged and mountainous regions of Dothion, first layer of Bytopia, the so-called whisperwind shafts are tunnel networks that descend into the earth - some apparently natural, others formed from mine shafts and other intentional processes. Regardless of the origin of any given entrance to the tunnel network, however, the depths show themselves to be roughly hewn - some would say _gnawed_ - rather than properly worked and reinforced. Whisperwind shafts can always be recognized by the strange "hooked" or "melted" configuration of stalactites and stalagmites, which bend or even curl as though made of some soft, malleable material that had been heated. Of course, this observation is functionally secondary to the more immediate indicator - the sound of wind creating a "whisper" effect, which appears to resemble hushed voices talking rapidly in a language known to the listener but just a hair too quiet to make out clearly. The whispering comes from deeper into the shaft, and may lead off into side tunnels.

Explorers have reported that whisperwind shafts can (somehow) connect to Shurrock, the second layer, despite the fact that Shurrock sits opposite Dothion in an inverted configuration and should be impossible to reach via tunnelling. Inhabitants of Shurrock avoid the shaft entrances on their side, and if alerted to the existence of one are likely to make efforts to board it up and ward travellers away.

Whisperwind shafts are disorienting and unnerving; travellers report being unable to secure meaningful rest while inside (starting each day fatigued no matter how many hours of sleep a creature has had, and unable to remove fatigue by resting while within the shafts). Parts of the tunnel network appear to deaden darkvision, such that a source of illumination is required even for creatures normally able to see perfectly fine in the dark. _Web_ spells and similar effects fail to function within the shafts, as do _spider climb_ effects. Spiders of any kind will not enter the tunnel network, even under compulsion - physical force is required and the spider will display extreme panic (as the panicked condition) for the first 10 minutes, then act as though paralyzed until removed from the shafts. No spider can be conjured to appear within.

Encounters in the tunnels are few and far between, but predominantly involve a feylike being of stone known as a gormlyn. These creatures appear to lurk in the shadows of the tunnel system, resembling bluish-black rocks slick with water. Stealthy and generally uncommunicative, gormlyns appear in small numbers to those travelling from Dothion to Shurrock, but are noted to arrive in considerably larger numbers when travel is attempted in the opposite direction. The creatures whisper in a language that always sounds familiar but meaningless to the listener, and while in small numbers they may be bribed with shiny objects, they are noted to grow hostile when offered same while in groups. Gormlyns are not known to appear in other parts of Bytopia, but have been encountered in remote parts of the Outlands, and some adventurers swear to have discovered them in Arcadia (they are incorrect) and Pandemonium (uncertain accuracy).

Gormlyns are spellwarpedMM3 mineral warriorUnd bogglesMM2 with the following spell-like abilities: At will - _dead end_SC, _ghost sound_; 3/day - _ray of clumsiness_SC; 1/day - _invisibility_. Caster level equal to HD, save DCs Charisma-based. Some advanced gormlyns demonstrate the ability to use _guards and wards_ and/or _phantasmal disorientation_SC. Gormlyns are aberrations with the extraplanar and earth subtypes and are nearly always true neutral in alignment. They speak only their own language and are disinclined to converse with others as a general rule. They will fight to the death to avoid being removed from the whisperwind shafts. Rumor has it that those who have been extracted and brought to settlements where gnomes or gnome petitioners reside transform into gnomes after 24 hours, though nobody seems keen to conduct experiments to confirm this.

----------


## Brookshw

> I mean, in the case of that alternate future Raistlin, pretty sure he just killed gods until there were none left to know about him.


What does an alternate future that never comes to pass look like on temporal prime? Does it exist in any capacity?

----------


## afroakuma

> What does an alternate future that never comes to pass look like on temporal prime? Does it exist in any capacity?


If one could perceive it from afar, it would look like a river entirely comprised of ghost lines; however, as this is extraordinarily unlikely, you're only going to see it if you unwisely wander into a "node" and end up thrown onto that alternate reality's timeline, in which case it will look real to you, and you can step out into it; it came to pass *from your frame of reference*. However, if you cross into a node in this way and end up in an alternate timeline, you cannot get out again. Even if you travel back in time and try to cross into another reality that could have branched off, you will fail.

Krynn is particularly dangerous for nodes; every Dragon War constitutes a node, as does the Cataclysm, the Solamnic founding, the Greygem's active cycle, and *the entire lifetime* of Raistlin Majere, who was personally acquainted with chronomancy and took great pains to ward others off from messing with his timeline. Toril's timestream is less inherently stable, which means fewer branches but a much higher potential to swerve as a whole - so a *lot* of powerful forces work to monitor chronomantic shenanigans. Oerth's is similarly unstable but multiple gods with an interest in time exist who take pains to keep things from going insane, though sites like Tovag Baragu speak to the potent instability so described.

*Spoiler: The Happy Hindrances*
Show

Dobies are fey known on some worlds of the Prime Material Plane, helpful-minded cousins of the brownies whose well-meaning but short-sighted "assistance" has a habit of making things worse for those they try to aid. Their cousins on Bytopia, the bwbachs ("boo-backs"), refine this to a science. Chiefly found on Dothion, the first layer, bwbachs stir the pot whenever they think that someone is taking it a bit too easy - always in minor and friendly ways, but the results can be a few hours of additional work that wasn't planned to be taken on, oftentimes just to get back to par rather than producing anything more than was expected. While their lessons are usually quite friendly, it must be remembered that they are still fey, and despite their good natures they can become dangerous antagonists when they perceive malicious or exploitative action instead of mere laziness.

Bwbachs are pixies with the celestial template applied. They do not possess special arrows. Their spell-like abilities (which replace those of a pixie) are as follows: At will - _calm animals, charm animal, distort speech_SC, ghost sound, longstrider, obscure object, open/close, sleep, stick[/I]SC; 1/day - _bestow curse, dispel magic, entangle, lesser confusion, ray of enfeeblement_. Caster level 8th, save DCs Charisma-based. Bwbachs are normally lawful good or neutral good and chiefly fight with simple melee bludgeoning weapons.

----------


## wah3

Is there any canon (or failing that, speculation) on Greek mythology's 5 rivers of the Underworld other than the Styx i.e. the Lethe, Cocytus, Acheron or Pyriphlegethon?

Some notes from research:

The Lethe, River of Forgetfulness, is noted in the bottom layers of Hell and the Gray Waste, but with no known inflow or outflow, or any way of traveling on it. In myth it is in Heaven as well (along with the contrasting Eunoe, the River of Remembrance). It'd be quite a twist to have a direct route from the Upper to Lower Planes (along with Mount Olympus). 

The Cocytus, River of Forgetfulness, is noted in Nessus, the 9th later of the Hells, but a s a frozen lake rather than a river. In myth it flows thru Hades' realm of the Underwork (i.e. Pluton in the Gray Waste). Given its name you'd think there'd be some connection with Cocytus, the 2nd layer of Pandemonium. 

The Acheron, Acherous or Akherontis, River of Pain and Woe, seems to be only in myth and homebrew, flowing from the layer of Ocanthus in Acheron thru Hades' realm of the Underworld (i.e. Pluton in the Gray Waste). 

The Phlegethon or Pyriphlegethon, River of Fire, seems to be only in myth and homebrew. According to various sources it flows from Mount Erebus on Phlegethos, the 4th layer of the Hells, thru Pluton in the Gray Waste, various layers of the Abyss, the Hinterlands of The Outlands, and back to Avernus in the Nine Hells.

----------


## afroakuma

> Is there any canon (or failing that, speculation) on Greek mythology's 5 rivers of the Underworld other than the Styx i.e. the Lethe, Cocytus, Acheron or Pyriphlegethon?


The Lethe is explicitly present in Hades's divine realm, the Underworld, where it bears the same famous property of forgetting. Then again, the Styx does that too. The Lethe actually splits off from the Styx. The rest, canonically, don't exist as such, unsurprising as their names belong to different parts of the Lower Planes. I would surmise that the error arose from distributaries of the Styx flowing into the various layers and taking on interesting qualities as a result, and the marraenoloths under Charon plying their trades on these. The River Acheron likely flows through Avalas, cutting through steely cubes weighed down with the blood of a thousand pointless wars and the screams of a million soldiers realizing the futility behind their anguish. The River Cocytus carves its way through the Pandemonium layer of the same name, picking up the howls of madness and lamentation for the loss of hope that characterize the wailing tunnels of that horrid place. The River Pyriphlegethon runs through Phlegethon, acquiring its signature flames and drawing them into itself to become a river of burning torture deep within the Nine Hells of Baator.

----------


## Thurbane

Which NPCs are most well known for "multiverse hopping", or visiting alternate Prime Material Planes?

I know there was a series of Dragon articles where Elminster, Mordenkainen and some Krynn guy...Dalamar (?) use to catch up.

Any other notable examples, either from canon or headcanon?

----------


## Khedrac

> Which NPCs are most well known for "multiverse hopping", or visiting alternate Prime Material Planes?
> 
> I know there was a series of Dragon articles where Elminster, Mordenkainen and some Krynn guy...Dalamar (?) use to catch up.
> 
> Any other notable examples, either from canon or headcanon?


Murlynd (the Greyhawk quasi-deity) is famous for having brought six-shooters back from another world while still a mortal.

----------


## Tzardok

Don't know wether they count, but St. Cuthbert hails originally from Earth, and the canonical descriptions of the Aztec pantheon in 1e claim that they live on an alternate Material instead of the Outer Planes.

----------


## Eldan

> Which NPCs are most well known for "multiverse hopping", or visiting alternate Prime Material Planes?
> 
> I know there was a series of Dragon articles where Elminster, Mordenkainen and some Krynn guy...Dalamar (?) use to catch up.
> 
> Any other notable examples, either from canon or headcanon?


For Planescape specifically, Rowan Darkwood, head of the Fated. He's actually a bit of an injoke on power gamers in second edition, given that he's an epic level ranger/cleric who has, according to his backstory, completed most of the famous dungeons/adenture paths of the multiverse: he is said to have fought in the Demonweb Pits, the Bloodstone Wars, the Nine Hells, drank from the Well of Mimir, has been to Undermountain, the Temple of Elemental Evil, the Temple of the Toad, the Caverns of the Giants and the Tomb of Horrors...

----------


## Caelestion

And in what seems like a dig at "good-aligned" power gamers, he eventually commits an act of undeniable evil that kicks off the Faction War.

----------


## Thealtruistorc

Would you say that the re-emergence of Karsus that acts as the instigating even in "An Old Man Died Today" would qualify as an Elder Evil? Certainly, he seems to have an vested interest in the Material Plane and seems capable of affecting events on a grand scale. If yes, how would you stat him?

----------


## Bad Wolf

Apologies if this isn't your wheelhouse, but what's the best/largest source of fluff for the Aasimar in 3rd edition? It feels like the planetouched are a little underwritten.

----------


## redking

> Would you say that the re-emergence of Karsus that acts as the instigating even in "An Old Man Died Today" would qualify as an Elder Evil? Certainly, he seems to have an vested interest in the Material Plane and seems capable of affecting events on a grand scale. If yes, how would you stat him?


According to the FR wiki, Karsus was either Neutral or Chaotic Neutral in alignment. That being, it would be extremely implausible for Karsus to be an Elder Evil. Even if Karsus was evil, you've got to be a special kind of evil to be an Elder Evil.

----------


## Tzardok

> According to the FR wiki, Karsus was either Neutral or Chaotic Neutral in alignment. That being, it would be extremely implausible for Karsus to be an Elder Evil. Even if Karsus was evil, you've got to be a special kind of evil to be an Elder Evil.


Not really. One of the canonical Elder Evils, the Leviathan, is after all CN.

----------


## wah3

Are there powerful beings associated each of the great planar rivers?

The Styx has Charon.

Mythology has Saraswati the One Who Flows, daughter of Shiva and consort of Brahma, the Indian intermediate goddess of knowledge, wisdom, learning, speech, memory, art, music and rivers, who is said to dwell along the Oceanus. There is also the titan Oceanus (perhaps before he was banished to Porphatys on Carceri)? and his eldest daughter Styx, titaness of magic, crossroads, the moon, ghosts, necromancy, oaths, hatred and devastation, who lives in a grotto at the edge of Hades where the River Styx flows forth. And Lethe, the goddess of forgetfulness and oblivion, who is the daughter of Eris, the goddess of discord, and a granddaughter of Nyx of Erebus, the goddess of night.

----------


## afroakuma

> Would you say that the re-emergence of Karsus that acts as the instigating even in "An Old Man Died Today" would qualify as an Elder Evil?


If he ended up within spitting distance of actually manifesting, certainly. The entire premise of "An Old Man Died Today" is that the gods basically see an Elder Evil coming and drastically alter their world to prevent it, quite successfully as well.




> Apologies if this isn't your wheelhouse, but what's the best/largest source of fluff for the Aasimar in 3rd edition? It feels like the planetouched are a little underwritten.


These threads, arguably; there have been a couple of articles in Dragon Magazine about planetouched, but by and large the best source will be poking me for nonsense.




> Are there powerful beings associated each of the great planar rivers?


Not... really. Semuanya could be considered related to the River Ma'at, as its source is the divine realm of that power. Charon, as you noted, plies the Styx. The Oceanus doesn't have anyone - the closest thing is a terribly tenuous connection with Selûne.

----------


## Fable Wright

Google is failing me: What is "An Old Man Died Today"? Where does it come from?

----------


## Bohandas

> Google is failing me: What is "An Old Man Died Today"? Where does it come from?


I was wondering this as well

----------


## MinimanMidget

It's on the first page of this very thread.




> I'm not entirely sure I have ever elaborated on it, come to think of it...
> 
> The fundamental idea is that the Realms come under threat due to the machinations of Karsus, the extremely-temporary deity of magic, more recently a vestige. A veeeery long-term plan to pull himself back into reality through the Weave is reliant on there being a high concentration of Mystra's power to jack into, which would be Elminster. If he were to do so, Karsus's residual backdoor into the godhead of Mystryl would result in absolute catastrophe for a second time. Of course, Mystra, as a greater goddess, can sense the threat to her power several weeks out, and starts laying plans.
> 
> Ultimately, Elminster chooses to pass of old age, relinquishing his Chosen immortality, and goes peacefully in his sleep after a pleasant meal with his assistant. When the threat doesn't clear, Mystra recalls her power from the other Chosen, and other gods are swift to follow suit, fearful that the willing withdrawal of the goddess of magic must be an indicator of grave danger to their own power (which hey, they are *not* wrong, there is a chance that any concentration of divine power that large could serve as Karsus's host). With so many individual casters reduced in power, and many of the greater evils (liches, etc.) choosing to flee the sphere entirely and set up shop elsewhere, uncertainty reigns as the greatest arcane powers are concentrated in artifacts and relics of past ages, many of which are in the trapped but now vacant domains of said greater evils.
> 
> The Red Wizards fall back into their towers and fortresses, weakening the magocratic foundations of Thay, as they jockey for scraps of power in the new diminished regime, fearful of a plot by the absent Szass Tam. Bane's forces in the north strike an uneasy peace with the Dalelands with neither side trusting the other. Shar is too cautious to believe Mystra has left a true power vacuum, but in an era of fear and loss, she's already making out like a bandit, so she doesn't care. In the far south, Zakhara's sha'irs quest to other lands to explore the weakening of magic.
> 
> Meanwhile, Talos has discovered that in a time when Shar and her Shadow Weave have backed off, and Bane is down a number of powerful wizards and uberclerics, destruction has a pretty good day. First among the greater powers to be willing to risk committing his own might onto the world once more, he has come with a plan - a plan taking place in a corner of the world so pivotal, yet so obscure, that nobody really saw it coming. In the so-called Utter East, beyond Durpar and the Golden Water, beyond even Ulgarth, the Five Kingdoms are the site of ancient fonts of primal magic, channeled by powerful artifacts known as "bloodforges" that were used in ages past to create living armies of pure magic to wage war on one another. Talos plans to seize the bloodforges and use the most ancient magics of the world to sow destruction and chaos, becoming the preeminent deity of darkness.
> ...

----------


## Thurbane

My knowledge of Planescape is pretty limited, but I've been interested in Dabus ever since reading about them in EttDP.

I don't have the fluff in front of me right now, but do Dabus ever "go rogue" and leave Sigil/leave the service of the Lady of Pain?

Do they ever just go off to do their own thing, or even become adventurers?

----------


## enderlord99

> I don't have the fluff in front of me right now, but do Dabus ever "go rogue" and leave Sigil


No.


> leave the service of the Lady of Pain?


Fell did, sorta, but otherwise not.

----------


## afroakuma

> My knowledge of Planescape is pretty limited, but I've been interested in Dabus ever since reading about them in EttDP.
> 
> I don't have the fluff in front of me right now, but do Dabus ever "go rogue" and leave Sigil/leave the service of the Lady of Pain?


No. The only case of a dabus "going rogue" was when one took up the mantle of a priest of Aoskar, and even then he stayed in Sigil. Even though the Lady was...

...let us say *unhappy*...

...when she found out, he's still there and going about his day. He doesn't float, though, which is why he's been nicknamed Fell.




> Do they ever just go off to do their own thing, or even become adventurers?


No and no.

----------


## redking

> ...when she found out, he's still there and going about his day. He doesn't float, though, which is why he's been nicknamed Fell.


Creating a simulacrum of a Dabus would be an interesting experiment. If floating is a boon granted by the Lady of Pain, then a Dabus simulacrum should not float.

----------


## Khedrac

Speaking of the Dabus, one thing that puzzled me - how do they interact with races that don't use sight?
Their communication system is the sort of thing that for me would be fun in a novel, but would be an absolute pain for the DM for any encounter not pre-scripted.  Anyway back to the unsighted:

As a sight-only illusion, I am not sure how it would interact with the following alternatives to "vision":
blindsense/blindsight - almost certainly don't show up
mindsight - might show up as only in the mind
tremorsense - nope
lifesense - nope

Going back to 2nd Ed I cannot remember if high Intelligence scores made one immune to illusions as in 1st Ed, if so what level of spell would the dabus comms count as - I could see a high-ranking planar representative turn up and not even realise they are trying to communicate with them!
Also on the 2nd Ed front - presumably they should not show up to infravision either (though I don't remember any races with infravision but not normal sight).

*Spoiler: mild rant about Planescape that goes off topic*
Show

Sorry, but one reason I never took to Planescape when it launched was the way they invented a new slang and wrote everything in it - I am bad at languages so having to learn a new one to play AD&D did not appeal.  I also thought it elitist - it felt like it was designed so that those who mastered the slang could look down on the 'berks' who didn't.  As such I did not encounter the Dabus until 3rd Ed - at which point their comms method comes out as insulting to the visually impaired.
And another thing - while 'berk' is a pretty mild insult here in the UK, its derivation is cockney rhyming slang for an extremely insulting term so did WotC really have to use it as the common insult for people new to the planes?  Even back in 1990 they should have known to invent a new word rather than repurpose and existing insult.

----------


## Tzardok

As far as we know the Dabus can only communicate with seeing beings. I don't see how that comes as insulting to the visually impaired, unless using spoken speach is insulting to the hearing impaired.

As for the slang, well, the whole Cant _is_ based on Cockney Rhyming Slang, so why not use the words that are already there?

----------


## Caelestion

> *Spoiler: mild rant about Planescape that goes off topic*
> Show
> 
> Sorry, but one reason I never took to Planescape when it launched was the way they invented a new slang and wrote everything in it - I am bad at languages so having to learn a new one to play AD&D did not appeal.  I also thought it elitist - it felt like it was designed so that those who mastered the slang could look down on the 'berks' who didn't.  As such I did not encounter the Dabus until 3rd Ed - at which point their comms method comes out as insulting to the visually impaired.
> And another thing - while 'berk' is a pretty mild insult here in the UK, its derivation is cockney rhyming slang for an extremely insulting term so did WotC really have to use it as the common insult for people new to the planes?  Even back in 1990 they should have known to invent a new word rather than repurpose and existing insult.


Well, "berk" and "Berkeley Hunt" are pronounced differently, of course.  Remember that not only is the past a different country, it's entirely possible that they (quite reasonably) thought that no one would notice.  I certainly didn't at the time.

----------


## Lapak

> Going back to 2nd Ed I cannot remember if high Intelligence scores made one immune to illusions as in 1st Ed, if so what level of spell would the dabus comms count as - I could see a high-ranking planar representative turn up and not even realise they are trying to communicate with them!
> Also on the 2nd Ed front - presumably they should not show up to infravision either (though I don't remember any races with infravision but not normal sight).


While this is wandering further afield, I always read that as being immune to being tricked by them, not that you can't perceive them at all. In the same way that 'disbelieving' in 2nd edition allows you to register the presence of an illusion while being able to see through it (literally and figuratively), I would assume high-INT characters pre-3e would be able to see what the Dabus were saying.

And yes, 2E did carry forward the illusion immunity. Starts at INT 19 being immune to 1st-level illusions and scales up one-for-one from there to 7th-level illusions at INT 25.

----------


## afroakuma

> Creating a simulacrum of a Dabus would be an interesting experiment. If floating is a boon granted by the Lady of Pain, then a Dabus simulacrum should not float.


I was less under the impression it was a boon she granted (the related beings known as the phirblas float and have no known ties to the Lady) than something essential to dabus-kind that Fell lost because he transgressed something fundamental about being a dabus.




> Speaking of the Dabus, one thing that puzzled me - how do they interact with races that don't use sight?


In Sigil, people read their rebuses aloud for those who can't follow them. Some people make a career of it. They also don't often speak to others unless there is some particular need. 




> Going back to 2nd Ed I cannot remember if high Intelligence scores made one immune to illusions as in 1st Ed, if so what level of spell would the dabus comms count as - I could see a high-ranking planar representative turn up and not even realise they are trying to communicate with them!


Disbelieving an illusion doesn't mean you don't see it, it means you see it but recognize it as false. The only time disbelief eliminates perception of an illusion is with a phantasm. Figments, glamers, and patterns do their thing and don't care about whether they fooled you or not. A dabus's communication would be a figment or pattern.

----------


## Thurbane

> Well, "berk" and "Berkeley Hunt" are pronounced differently, of course.  Remember that not only is the past a different country, it's entirely possible that they (quite reasonably) thought that no one would notice.  I certainly didn't at the time.


When I hear Berk, this is what I always think of:

----------


## enderlord99

In post #936 of thread VII, you posted a description of a villainous plan that involved an attempt to unleash the greatest *th*reat to the multiverse being used as a distraction for another attempt to do the exact same thing a different way, involving the destruction of an entire world as a mere stepping-stone in the process, which also included time-travel as a key component.

I have things, both complimentary and not-so-much, to say about that story:

It's _freakin' amazing_, but also...

...it reminds me of Homestuck.

I'm sorry to say that, but it's true.

----------


## wah3

How much of the old layer of Malbolge -- the slope filled with tons of rocks, rolling boulders, and avalanches -- do you suppose is left after the Hag Countess' transformation? Given it's an infinite plane, it seems there's a limited area she could have affected. If I recall correctly, there is one copper fortress still active, run by medusae, and Moloch hides there at times. Are the rest in ruins, some buried deep under many yards of hag-stuff?

----------


## Tzardok

Didn't Moloch get himself killed in the Reckoning?

----------


## wah3

> Didn't Moloch get himself killed in the Reckoning?


Killed? Inconceivable, his idol is on the cover of the AD&D 1st edition Player's Handbook! 

From various sources he was ousted as Lord of the 6th, and can't take a form greater than an imp when in the Hells. But he's still around, plotting to get back power. Either on Avernus (part of the Rabble of Devilkin), Malbolge (trying to win over Glasya and wondering if he can somehow bring the Hag Countess back to life), or other planes -- hiring yugoloths and mercenaries on Gehenna or in Sigil, and scheming with Imix of Elemental Fire (possibly arranged by Imix's pit fiend general, Asgeroth).

----------


## Bad Wolf

Does Demogorgon being the Prince of Demons actually mean anything beyond marking him as one of the strongest demons around? Unlike the Nine Hells where Asmodeus is the top dog, the Abyss seems basically like every demon lord for themselves.   

Which I suppose is typical for their chaotic natures, of course...

----------


## Tzardok

For one, being Prince of Demons means that you are topdog. No other demon can grow more powerful than the Prince of Demons.

For another, the Abyss and its... ecology reflect the Prince in subtle ways. To give an extreme example, if Obox-ob were to regain the title, the Obyrith would start spawning again. 
If Graz'zt became Prince of Demons, the balance of power would shift to those demons that were born as demons, as Graz'zt represents inherited right to rule. Orcus' winning the title, on the other hand, would shift power to those demons that began as mortal souls, as manes and other lowlys, and managed to claw themselves to power, as Orcus represents rule by merit. Logically, as Demogorgon represents rule by seniority, the balance of power would currently lie with old demons, the older the better. That's just an assumption, of course; we can't know what exact effect Demogorgon has until he's gone, we only know that it has been the status quo for ages.

----------


## redking

> If Graz'zt became Prince of Demons, the balance of power would shift to those demons that were born as demons, as Graz'zt represents inherited right to rule.


If you follow Gary Gygax's vision of Greyhawk, then Graz'zt is of the Abat-Dolor race of demons. Graz'zt ascendancy as prince could mean the rise of the Abat-Dolor.

----------


## Tzardok

*snerk* If you take Gygax' novels as canon, Demogorgon has a twin brother called Mandrillagon.

----------


## redking

> *snerk* If you take Gygax' novels as canon, Demogorgon has a twin brother called Mandrillagon.


In the Gygax canon, many demons have kinsfolk.

----------


## Tzardok

What I meant to say with that is that Gygax' canon a) contradicts Planescape canon and b) is silly. Afro certainly ignores it:




> Not relevant. I mean if we took his canon at face value, then...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by A source of horrible terrible facts
> 
> ...

----------


## redking

> What I meant to say with that is that Gygax' canon a) contradicts Planescape canon and b) is silly. Afro certainly ignores it:


I'm pretty sure that Mandrillagon was adapted (under a different name) in 3.5e as a clone or son of Demogorgon. So Gordhawk exists in various forms in canon. Ditto Vuron/Verin.

If you want information on Vuron/Verin in particular, the Gord the Rogue books are the best source.

----------


## Fable Wright

If Miska the Wolf-Spider was freed, would he be strong enough to oust Demogorgon?

And if so, what effect would that have on the rules of the Abyss in particular, and would Miska's reemergence risk causing the War of Law and Chaos to begin to involve the Slaadi and Modrons as well, or would it be confined to a vastly more aggressive Blood War?

----------


## Tzardok

Back in the fourth thread, Afro mentioned that Miska at his peak was more powerful than Demogorgon is now, but Miska now is weaker than Demogorgon now.

And in the seventh thread, he had this to say on the topic of Miska being freed:



> I mean, that's a whole 2E module - _The Rod of Seven Parts_. If Miska is freed, the Queen of Chaos resumes the War of Law and Chaos. Certain players would resist immediate involvement - surely one ancient tanar'ri lord cannot represent so great a fulcrum - but the vaati will move against him in short order, and unless Miska is defeated, matters will escalate.

----------


## Thurbane

What deities, if any, can Demogorgon count among his allies? As much as any Chaotic Evil entity can have allies...

----------


## Fable Wright

> Back in the fourth thread, Afro mentioned that Miska at his peak was more powerful than Demogorgon is now, but Miska now is weaker than Demogorgon now.


Thank you for the clarifications! I'd forgotten I'd asked that, uh, eight years ago.

The question is whether the Queen of Chaos now + Miska now is powerful enough to take Demogorgon as he is now.  :Small Smile: 

Followed by, if that was a success, what effects Miska would have on the Abyss, with Demogorgon representing rule by seniority, Graz'zt rule by birthright, Orcus by effort, and (presumably) Obox-Ob representing _sheer, unrelenting spite and a will to live._

...Come to think of it, would Obox-Ob prefer Demogorgon or Miska in command, given, uh, the end of his own reign?

----------


## Tzardok

You are asking a _demon_ which of his rivals he would prefer to be on top when the very existence of non-brutally-murdered rivals is an affront to their very being?  :Small Confused:  :Small Big Grin: 

I'm not sure exactly what Obox-ob represents. From what I remember he emerged from the Abyss' churning chaos already the most powerful demon of all, so unless his current existence has changed the core of his being, he propably represents *primordality*. No idea how that would show itself, except for, well, restoring the Obyrith.

----------


## Fable Wright

> I'm not sure exactly what Obox-ob represents. From what I remember he emerged from the Abyss' churning chaos already the most powerful demon of all, so unless his current existence has changed the core of his being, he propably represents *primordality*. No idea how that would show itself, except for, well, restoring the Obyrith.


Some sources whose canonicity I do not 100% trust indicated that Obox-ob's removal from Demon Prince was through brutal murder, and he barely survived through spite as a shell of his former self. If anything can change the nature of a demon, I'd suspect it's that. What he represents _now_ is not what what Obox-ob represented _then._

----------


## afroakuma

> How much of the old layer of Malbolge -- the slope filled with tons of rocks, rolling boulders, and avalanches -- do you suppose is left after the Hag Countess' transformation? Given it's an infinite plane, it seems there's a limited area she could have affected.


Asmodeus basically copy-pasted her viscera over everything. He can do that. I suspect the slopey rocky version is totally paved over, but the caverns beneath it and many of the fortresses and towers would still be intact.




> Didn't Moloch get himself killed in the Reckoning?


Nope. Demoted, yes, but he's alive and part of the Rabble now.




> Does Demogorgon being the Prince of Demons actually mean anything beyond marking him as one of the strongest demons around?


It means he's the limit, no demon can get more powerful than him without also being a god.




> If you follow Gary Gygax's vision of Greyhawk


We don't. Canon only.




> If you want information on Vuron/Verin in particular, the Gord the Rogue books are the best source.


The Gord the Rogue books are noncanonical and there are other resources on Verin that *are* canonical.




> If Miska the Wolf-Spider was freed, would he be strong enough to oust Demogorgon?


Still no.  :Small Big Grin: 




> What deities, if any, can Demogorgon count among his allies? As much as any Chaotic Evil entity can have allies...


None known, so far as I recall; he kind of makes a habit of ticking off virtually everyone who encounters him.




> The question is whether the Queen of Chaos now + Miska now is powerful enough to take Demogorgon as he is now.


Plausible but they'd need more allies.




> Followed by, if that was a success, what effects Miska would have on the Abyss, with Demogorgon representing rule by seniority, Graz'zt rule by birthright, Orcus by effort, and (presumably) Obox-Ob representing _sheer, unrelenting spite and a will to live._


Miska can reasonably cover rule by seniority given he's an ancient tanar'ri and predates Graz'zt and Orcus both. As noted previously, though, if he were released and Demogorgon dethroned, all of his efforts would be bent toward reigniting the War of Law and Chaos.




> ...Come to think of it, would Obox-Ob prefer Demogorgon or Miska in command, given, uh, the end of his own reign?


Neither. He hates Miska for the circumstances of his dethroning even though Miska wasn't personally responsible, and Demogorgon for being the poser-in-chief for the last several millennia.




> he propably represents *primordality*. No idea how that would show itself, except for, well, restoring the Obyrith.


He does.




> Some sources whose canonicity I do not 100% trust indicated that Obox-ob's removal from Demon Prince was through brutal murder, and he barely survived through spite as a shell of his former self. If anything can change the nature of a demon, I'd suspect it's that. What he represents _now_ is not what what Obox-ob represented _then._


Oh, he still hangs onto it. That can be seen in his form of madness - outside of Pale Night, whose true form reality itself simply rejects, Obox-ob has the most terrifying form of madness; it actually hits in two ways, one representing what he is now (vermin) and one representing what he was (pure sanity-shattering evil so corrosive to witness that it actually begins destroying the body).

*Spoiler: The Glaucous Ravine*
Show

The glooms of the dismal realm of Hades are no place for mortals to tread, but rumors of untold wealth and power for those who dare the literal depths of despair persist around the multiverse, and not entirely without reason. In a remote part of the third gloom, Pluton, lies a place that seems to defy the colorlessness of the evil plane - but all who look upon this crevice describe the hue they see as "the color of sorrow." Here where dreadful silent fiends known as outes and nemoi lurk, one can brave the treacherous descent into the Glaucous Ravine to meet with a master of shadowy arts, who can confer incredible powers of stealth to any willing to pay the price.

What exactly Aebolas is may never truly be understood - some, going by his appearance coated in freshly-suppurating blood, believe him to be a mutant demodand. Others have suggested a deformed xerfilstyx or hydroloth, given his apparent affiliation with the waters of the Styx. Some theories even suggest a rogue tanar'ri, obyrith, or ancient Baatorian. Most commonly, however, Aebolas is believed to be an altraloth, and that is certainly his favorite rumor to stoke. At the bottom of his ravine, Aebolas makes his macabre realm of dessicated flesh curtains, long black needles, twisting glass barbs, and a lake of gray blood. Through an agonizing process, he will explain, the fiend is able to transform a willing mortal into an apon, a thing of nigh-impenetrable stealthiness, a kind of living absence infecting the multiverse with its existence. None but Aebolas the Blooded One has ever been able to produce an apon, and it is known that part of his price is an agreement to commit two murders for him at some unspecified time in the future, one of which is always called in immediately.

The powers conferred to an apon are incredible, including the ability to use the Hide skill against *any* form of sensing, but few would willingly go through the ordeal. Aebolas himself estimates the number of living apons in all the multiverse is less than twenty, and there may at this point be fewer than 10. Even his best methods, the fiend admits with a sinister grin, struggle to keep tabs on an apon once it leaves the Glaucous Ravine - and once it has discharged its duties to him in full. Sages who study the profane art known as soulbinding have sponsored explorations of the Glaucous Ravine, as some believe that the first apon may have actually become so impossible to perceive that the multiverse itself lost the ability to recognize it.

Aebolas remains poorly understood, particularly in terms of what the fiend stands to gain from his services beyond sheer enjoyment of spreading any kind of evil. Those who have met with him and come away with their lives note that he suppresses a small sneer at the mention of the General of Gehenna and has bristled when openly compared to a demodand. One adventurer who barely escaped from the outes spoke of some nameless terror moving in the shadows behind Aebolas, some curled and crawling thing that could only be perceived as yellow eyes and a lipless mouth filled with teeth. She says the thing spoke words that made her ears bleed and its shadows caressed the Blooded One like a parent comforting a child. Her corpse was later found stuffed full of maggots with her eyes and mouth stitched shut, hanging from an outcropping on Mertion, fifth of the Seven Heavens of Mount Celestia. The archons continue to investigate how this could have happened.

----------


## Fable Wright

Follow-up question:

Under the assumption that each plane has a bounded infinity as a pool of power (in the way that the set of all integers is less than the set of all real numbers is less than the set of all complex numbers) that must be in some manner allocated among the denizens of a plane; would the strength of the demon prince be inversely proportional to the number of demons in the abyss? That is, if the ceiling of power is lowered, more demons emerge and/or all existing demons become stronger? Or is the strength of the demon prince independent of the number of demons in the abyss and directly proportional only to the upper bound of demonkind, so that a stronger demon prince is universally good for demons and bad for everyone else in reality?

Additionally, if I were to brainstorm a plot in which a cult of wizards were to attempt to reinstate Obox-ob as demon prince for the purposes of getting more information about the pre-mortal state of the multiverse, what actions might they take, and what consequences might there be for the average berk in sigil when the manure hits the air circulator?

----------


## Alea

> Follow-up question:
> 
> Under the assumption that each plane has a bounded infinity as a pool of power (in the way that the set of all integers is less than the set of all real numbers is less than the set of all complex numbers) that must be in some manner allocated among the denizens of a plane; would the strength of the demon prince be inversely proportional to the number of demons in the abyss? That is, if the ceiling of power is lowered, more demons emerge and/or all existing demons become stronger? Or is the strength of the demon prince independent of the number of demons in the abyss and directly proportional only to the upper bound of demonkind, so that a stronger demon prince is universally good for demons and bad for everyone else in reality?
> 
> Additionally, if I were to brainstorm a plot in which a cult of wizards were to attempt to reinstate Obox-ob as demon prince for the purposes of getting more information about the pre-mortal state of the multiverse, what actions might they take, and what consequences might there be for the average berk in sigil when the manure hits the air circulator?


If you remove a finite number of things from an infinite set, you havent changed anything about it: it is still infinite, and furthermore, its still _just as_ infinite as before.

Also, the cardinality of real numbers and complex numbers is the same; the set of all real numbers is not less than the set of all complex numbersboth are 2ℵ0 which is hypothesized to equal ℵ1, i.e. the next-smallest kind of infinity after ℵ0 as the integers have.

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## afroakuma

> Under the assumption that each plane has a bounded infinity as a pool of power (in the way that the set of all integers is less than the set of all real numbers is less than the set of all complex numbers) that must be in some manner allocated among the denizens of a plane; would the strength of the demon prince be inversely proportional to the number of demons in the abyss? That is, if the ceiling of power is lowered, more demons emerge and/or all existing demons become stronger? Or is the strength of the demon prince independent of the number of demons in the abyss and directly proportional only to the upper bound of demonkind, so that a stronger demon prince is universally good for demons and bad for everyone else in reality?


Yeah it doesn't work that way at all, but the Prince of Demons' personal power is independent of the number of demons in the Abyss. Arguably it swells with *more* demons and demonic activity on the Prime, as opposed to thinning. A stronger Prince of Demons is good for demons (who have a higher ceiling) and bad for anyone who wants to take a run at him.

Also remember: "demon prince" is a generic title that many many demons possess. "Prince of Demons" is the crown.




> Additionally, if I were to brainstorm a plot in which a cult of wizards were to attempt to reinstate Obox-ob as demon prince for the purposes of getting more information about the pre-mortal state of the multiverse, what actions might they take, and what consequences might there be for the average berk in sigil when the manure hits the air circulator?


I feel like they didn't think that one through, as Obox-ob at full power wouldn't be beholden to give them anything except nightmares. They would definitely need to establish a cult of Obox-ob on the Prime and some of their number would need to become thralls of Obox-Ob. Through dark communion with the Prince of Vermin, they would gain insights on how to corrupt holy sites and artifacts for the purpose of feeding more power to their fiendish patron. Undertaking these acts would give the obyrith a foothold on the Prime and likely spread a sign (as per Elder Evils). Ultimately they would want to incarnate Obox-ob on the Prime through profane rituals and sacrifices, trapping the souls of the tormented and funnelling them into his slavering maws. The final step, though, is going to be the most annoying by far - while juicing him up on a Material Plane world is one thing, taking on Demogorgon is quite another. You can look to the final adventures of the Savage Tide adventure path for suggestions, but there would need to be a bit more subtlety involved, and given their goals some would-be allies will decline to get involved. Dagon, of course, might actually be willing to turn on Demogorgon to support the return of obyrith power in the Abyss. The Queen of Chaos is a write-off as an option, neither of them would work together. Orcus is almost certain to still get involved though, he *really* hates Demogorgon and might think he can handle whatever upstart tries to take the crown next.

*Spoiler: The Hills of Keramos*
Show

The first layer of Arcadia, Abellio, is known for a kind of placid pastoral order in all things. Landscape features are evenly distributed and regimented, aligned just so, and features like hills and mountains are typically present only insofar as they are less a distraction and disruption than they are an aesthetic benefit. Of course, divine realms eschew the rules of the layer to match with the intentions of their ruling power, but those are the exception, not the rule.

...and as far as anyone can tell, the Hills of Keramos are not a divine realm.

Nor are they... really hills. A region of Abellio that is dozens of miles in diameter, the Hills of Keramos consist of thin and orthogonally perfect roads 20 feet wide exactly, running between plateaus that rise to a height of 10 feet exactly, with smooth bevelled sides at 60 degree angles. Each plateau occupies an area of 400 ft. by 400 ft. square. The top of each "hill" is perfectly smooth and cool to the touch, made of a marble-like stone with rich whorls and colors. Giant axiomatic vermin occasionally fly or crawl about the plateaus, but they appear to be not so much inhabitants as curious explorers.

Also curious are the formians, who repeatedly mount exploratory patrols into this region. The antlike outsiders are loath to step off the roads and attempt to climb onto any of the "hills," and the reason why lies in the strange manifestation of Arcadia's lawfulness that is exhibited thereon. Any being stepping onto the surface of a "hill" must make a Balance check (DC 25) or begin "falling" perpendicular to the surface, always directly away from the Orb of Night and Day. This "falling" is arrested only by colliding with a barrier, being seized by a creature capable of countering the momentum, or otherwise after 1d6 miles, though never further than the borders of the Hills of Keramos. A creature whose falling stops naturally will never find itself on top of another plateau - it will always be deposited onto a road or outside the Hills entirely. 

Who or what exactly Keramos is remains unknown, but sages who have studied the patterns and whorls on the plateaus have noted some similarities to ruins on Pelion, third layer of Arborea, suggesting a potential involvement by the same vanished titanic beings from that plane. Adventurers who have spent time exploring the depths of the Hills have perceived a towering city in the distance, though to date none have located this place, explored it, and returned, nor does it seem to be perceptible without actually walking along the roads - flight has to date never revealed the city or any other structure in the Hills of Keranos. It is possible that this city, or something within it, is what motivates the formians to keep exploring the Hills.


Curious to know if people enjoy these little concept snippets.

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## wah3

> Asmodeus basically copy-pasted her viscera over everything. He can do that. I suspect the slopey rocky version is totally paved over, but the caverns beneath it and many of the fortresses and towers would still be intact.


Cool, thanks, gotta be some abandoned treasure left in those fortresses.

Re The Glaucous Ravine, what are outes and nemoi?

----------


## Alea

> Curious to know if people enjoy these little concept snippets.


I do! That last one has me wondering if you were referencing something therethats a very specific layout, though that might just have been emphasizing the Lawfulness of it.

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## Thurbane

> Curious to know if people enjoy these little concept snippets.


Very much so.

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## enderlord99

> Very much so.


That's my answer as well.

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## afroakuma

> Re The Glaucous Ravine, what are outes and nemoi?


Faceless fiends of Pluton that I haven't homebrewed yet.




> I do! That last one has me wondering if you were referencing something therethats a very specific layout, though that might just have been emphasizing the Lawfulness of it.


I mean...

*Spoiler: If you really want to know*
Show

...it's bathroom tiles  :Small Tongue: 


Anyway, bit of a different snippet here today, this one isn't for a plane, but for a Prime world. A Prime world I usually think very little of, but this idea came to me and I liked it too much not to pursue it.

*Spoiler: The Black Rooks of Sharn*
Show

The lower classes of Sharn, City of Towers, have long told tales of strange creatures lurking atop the famous spires of the city, gargoyles and spooks and all manner of fantastical birds and bats. Some rumors even give these urban legends a name - the Black Rooks, giant crows who carry off the unwary to their doom, vanishing into shadow at will. Naturally, such legends are just that - numerous investigations on the rooftops have confirmed that there are no such "giant bird creatures" nesting up there. What a ridiculous notion - as ridiculous as believing in the Cabinet of Faces or a lost dragonmarked house. Tall tales to spook the gullible, nothing more.

The Black Rooks quite agree. 

They would never bother nesting anywhere so obvious. No, the lairs of this clandestine organization are unknown, though they are certainly situated, at least in large part, in Sharn itself. One of the most secret of all covert groups operating in Khorvaire, the Black Rooks have an unorthodox history and rather unique function in the world of the criminal and conspiratorial. Behind the veil of polite society that shrouds House Thuranni and House Phiarlan, it is something of an open secret that espionage, thievery, and even assassination are all well-regulated services handled by these fractured Houses. So too do most nations maintain intelligence agencies of one sort or another, generally happy to contract out to these Houses to conduct operations of a less than savory sort. All of this operates under the aegis of the Korth Edicts, which requires the Houses to maintain political neutrality and offer up their services to the highest bidder. Every House has a basic understanding of the rules these reputable sneaks work under, as well as the lines they will not cross. No such rules constrain the Black Rooks.

The truth of this shadowy guild lies in their nature and origins, for unlike the members of the dragonmarked Houses, the Black Rooks are not human, dwarf, elf, gnome, halfling, or orc. They are not even native to this world. They are kenku, a race of avian humanoids who were forcibly dragged to Eberron from their own world a few centuries ago. Arriving in a disruptive planar event on the eastern Sarlonan archipelago of Ohr Kaluun, many of their number were captured by the Inspired and subjected to quori experimentation. The masters of the Dreaming Dark wanted to create slave races with artificial dragonmarks, and their experiments determined that the planar differential infused in these unwary visitors would be a suitable anchor for the ersatz essence they wished to etch into living flesh. This was itself an adaptation of an earlier project meant to bind dragonmarks to Inspired host bodies. Many kenku died in these experiments, but a handful survived, horribly scarred by the synthetic marks. The free kenku aided a revolt that saw many prisoners freed, and in the chaos and confusion of the mass escapes they fled with the surviving test subjects to the shores of Khorvaire.

With their natural aptitude for stealth and covert activity, and sticking out in a way that would make them obvious to Riedran agents, the kenku moved under cover of night to conceal themselves in a place where they could put down roots and safely lose any pursuit in a vast population. Enter Sharn, City of Towers, and before long they discovered that the tensions between the Houses offered a market niche for the kind of services that they could provide. The original generation, led by the victims of the quori, now known as the "dragonscarred," made use of their artificial powers to establish a clandestine operation that has endured to this day. The Black Rooks serve to fill the vacuum, allowing the Houses to act against each other in the dead of night, to say nothing of other institutions such as the Dark Lanterns and the Argentum.

Very few people are aware of the existence of the Black Rooks. In part this is down to the resources and magical tools they possess, but the kenku have never been comfortable relying too much on objects that could be broken or lost. Much of their success at maintaining their anonymity comes down to pure skill and intellect, to say nothing of their high degree of operational secrecy. It has been said by those House leaders aware of their existence that for every Black Rook agent one sees, two more are watching them in turn. The Black Rooks permit only a handful of members of any one group to know about them, and these few are those with whom the Black Rooks will conduct business. Senior members of the Trust of Zilargo are aware of the Rooks, who are in turn aware of the Trust and maintain an official contact in Zilargo specifically for dealings with them. The Trust occasionally demands details of particular Black Rook operations, which are usually provided - and the Trust has learned to provide a healthy respect when a letter arrives from an Old Rook informing them that no further questions will be tolerated on a given matter. In this manner, an uneasy but highly functional detente exists between the two groups, and the Rooks tend to defer to the Trust in most matters pertaining to Zilargo.

The majority of Black Rook operatives are descended from the free kenku who escaped the original abduction, though some are heirs to those who bore the first dragonscars, and possess the Scar of Silence. Agents watch for signals placed by their contacts to know when they should approach for a commission. The presence of a Black Rook is always announced the same way - a veil of utter silence falls in the room, and looking around reveals the grey-robed kenku agent in the shadows, waiting impassively, a written missive or contract in hand. All communication with the Black Rooks is conducted in total silence, using hand gestures or writing. The kenku make use of an alchemically-treated paper which degrades rapidly when touched by flesh. Agents all wear a simple unadorned brooch which can be twisted open to reveal the persistent _silence_ effect within. This brooch allows the Old Rooks, the leaders of the organization, to detect where each agent is, as well as whether any given agent is deceased, so that the corpse can be retrieved or destroyed accordingly. The Old Rooks themselves are virtually inaccessible - requests to meet with them are responded to with a silent pitying look, and more persistent efforts earn a temporary stay in a Rook oubliette. Most learn their lesson after a day in the dark. Some few House leaders may possess the sway to politely request an audience with an Old Rook, and one would certainly attend the call of the Chamber or the Lords of Dust (though it is not believed the latter organization knows of them). The Black Rooks are aware of the Cabinet of Faces, though the two groups do not acknowledge each other, and at times have diverted work to the changelings that better suits their skillset.

If the organization has any substantive long-term goals beyond simple commerce, such objectives are not easy to see. It does appear as though the Old Rooks make use of their unaffiliated and unbound status to manipulate matters between the Houses and the nations of Khorvaire to maintain a tense sort of status quo. The only thing that is entirely certain they care about is the quori - while the Black Rooks do not fully understand the nature of those who tortured and pursued their ancestors, they fear and loathe the Dreaming Dark and the Inspired, and are uneasy about kalashtar as they recognize something off about them. Objectives which would harm Riedra draw their interest and may even attract their covert involvement, though the Black Rooks are keen to ensure they are never revealed. With no expectation of being able to return to their homeworld, they have no intention of risking their new home for any reason shy of a threat to their existence as a whole.


Major thanks to Alea, who helped sharpen this up.

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## MinimanMidget

That's very cool. What does the Scar of Silence do? And, Google having failed me, is "dragonscarred" original, or is there somewhere I can read up on it?

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## afroakuma

> That's very cool. What does the Scar of Silence do? And, Google having failed me, is "dragonscarred" original, or is there somewhere I can read up on it?


Dragonscarred is original, yes; it is a term I created for the Black Rooks to describe the process/consequence of being conferred an artificial dragonmark. Unlike a dragonmark which resembles a tattoo, a dragonscar resembles a discolored scarification that occasionally appears to pulse or throb. Dragonscars are created through a forced process that is known to involve ground-up Khyber dragonshard dust and the blood of an aberrant dragonmark holder or a dragon, catalyzed with the use of psionic power. It is known that a few groups have explored the creation of dragonscars, including the Inspired (drawing from their own use of Siberys shards implanted into the body), the illithids (presumably at the behest of their daelkyr masters, though with the daelkyr, who could say?), foes of the Draconic Prophecy, and even the gem dragons of Argonnessen themselves, creating agents meant to course-correct the Prophecy in their own strange and unique ways.

Properly etched, a dragonscar binds to the soul and blood of the bearer, and can be passed on to its descendants. Improper etching can create a number of different abominations but most commonly produces nothing more than an inert jagged scar. Dragonscars are not common or well understood and have been mistaken for aberrant dragonmarks in the past.

The Scar of Silence is the dragonscar associated with the Black Rooks. It only appears on kenku. The powers it confers are as follows: Least - _silence_ 1/day or _silent portal_SC 2/day; Lesser - _sculpt sound_ 1/day; Greater - _forbidden speech_BoVD 1/day.

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## enderlord99

Just a heads-up:

I recently directed someone to this thread for an explanation of why you can't reasonably just slot the entire D&D multiverse into the MTG one as a single plane of the latter, which she continues insisting would be both easy and a good idea.

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## Alea

> Just a heads-up:
> 
> I recently directed someone to this thread for an explanation of why you can't reasonably just slot the entire D&D multiverse into the MTG one as a single plane of the latter, which she continues insisting would be both easy and a good idea.


Obviously not relevant to this thread, but Wizards of the Coast has implied, in 5e, that D&D and MtG are part of the same multiverse, and the various planes of MtG are, I supposethey dont use these terms much anymorecrystal spheres. This quickly breaks down into nonsenseif nothing else, the MtG concept of planeswalker (preposterously rare and powerful) is wildly incompatible with the D&D concept of planewalker (usually right canny berks, but one hardly needs world-altering power to do it)but it may be a compelling point for this person. Wizards of the Coast disagrees, and sees D&D as, if anything, the larger setting in which to embed MtG.

Anyway, to the best of my knowledgeI am not anything like an expert in MtG loreMtG planes are single, solitary planes, so I think single plane is particularly nonsense since it would have to be one plane with... 27? off the top of my head? major planes and god knows how many individual worlds within some of them (primarily the Material, but dont discount the demiplanes of the Astral and Ethereal, and for that matter the layers of the Outer Planes).

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## Tzardok

Some of M:TG's planes have... layers or attached demiplanes that could make them look like minor multiverses (I'm specifically thinking of Kamigawa's spirit mirror, Ravnica's Ghost Quarter and however the Underworld works in Theros), so the Great Wheel _could_ be interpreted as an extreme version of that. It still wouldn't be easy and require a lot of wedging.

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## SirKazum

> Some of M:TG's planes have... layers or attached demiplanes that could make them look like minor multiverses (I'm specifically thinking of Kamigawa's spirit mirror, Ravnica's Ghost Quarter and however the Underworld works in Theros), so the Great Wheel _could_ be interpreted as an extreme version of that. It still wouldn't be easy and require a lot of wedging.


Still sounds to me like it works better with MtG's cosmology as a subset of D&D's multiverse rather than the other way around, as long as you're slamming the two together. Perhaps a bunch of planes that are... doing their own thing for whatever reason? Of course, still not germane to this thread, but anyway.

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## Eldan

If I had to connect them, I'd just go with the vague excuse D&D has always used for worlds that don't fit into the Great Wheel: "mumble mumble deep ethereal mumble mumble shadow plane mumble mumble higher dimension mumble mumble".

They are distantly connected unusual worlds. The end.

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## Bad Wolf

I'm sure she's no slouch when it comes to knowledge of the matter, but is there any famous wizard/sorcerer who's an expert on the Nine Hells like Iggwilv is on the Abyss?

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## Thurbane

Not sure if this counts, but The Dread Emperor (BoVD p.17) is a LE Wizard 10/Diabolist 10, and has Knowledge (the planes) +28, so I would assume he is something of an expert on the topic.

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## wah3

Some planar pathway questions for consideration.

Can gods be encountered on them? For example:
- Does Apollo's pleasure barge drift down the Oceanus, or Trishina swim in its waters?
- Can Cegilune be seen propelling down the Styx on some horrific errand?
- Do the Aesir, Vanir, or Norse giants ever wander the branches of Yggdrasil?
- Might Selune herself climb the Infinite Staircase? After all, it is still a-building, someone needs to check on the contractors.

Most of the pathways touch Sigil, does the Lady of Pain fully control opening or closing off access?
- There are intermittent portals to the Oceanus used to wash The Ditch clean every month or so. Some public wells and fountains (like the Singing Fountain) may also access it to supply water.
- Marraenoloths have been seen in the canals below the Lady's Ward, implying a connection to the Styx.
- Yggdrasil has tendrils in the Cage, there's said to be a branch in the Hall of Records and a root in the rafters of the Carpenters Guildhall
- Haven't found a specific mention of the Infinite Staircase, but since it seeks out places of creativity I can't imagine it misses Sigil.

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## enderlord99

> Some planar pathway questions for consideration.
> 
> Can gods be encountered on them? For example:
> - Does Apollo's pleasure barge drift down the Oceanus, or Trishina swim in its waters?
> - Can Cegilune be seen propelling down the Styx on some horrific errand?
> - Do the Aesir, Vanir, or Norse giants ever wander the branches of Yggdrasil?
> - Might Selune herself climb the Infinite Staircase? After all, it is still a-building, someone needs to check on the contractors.
> 
> Most of the pathways touch Sigil, does the Lady of Pain fully control opening or closing off access?
> ...


In order:
*no*; no, no; no; no, no, yes; no.  *absolutely*; yes, probably; yes; yes; maybe.

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## afroakuma

> I'm sure she's no slouch when it comes to knowledge of the matter, but is there any famous wizard/sorcerer who's an expert on the Nine Hells like Iggwilv is on the Abyss?


Nope.




> Some planar pathway questions for consideration.
> 
> Can gods be encountered on them? For example:
> - Does Apollo's pleasure barge drift down the Oceanus, or Trishina swim in its waters?


Their avatars and proxies, sometimes, but gods don't leave their realms without a very good reason, and a dip in the river isn't it.




> - Can Cegilune be seen propelling down the Styx on some horrific errand?


See above.




> - Do the Aesir, Vanir, or Norse giants ever wander the branches of Yggdrasil?


Non-divine giants, yes. Avatars, yes. Proxies, yes.




> - Might Selune herself climb the Infinite Staircase? After all, it is still a-building, someone needs to check on the contractors.


Definitely not.




> Most of the pathways touch Sigil, does the Lady of Pain fully control opening or closing off access?


She can open and close access between Sigil and these pathways; she has no other control over the pathways themselves.




> - Haven't found a specific mention of the Infinite Staircase, but since it seeks out places of creativity I can't imagine it misses Sigil.


It definitely reaches Sigil.

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## Thurbane

Is there any nature-themed deities that are evil and/or chaotic-nongood, who have an agenda of attacking or punishing those who harm nature?

Failing that, any evil deities whose domains included Animal or Plant would be good.

Basically, looking for a patron deity for someone who would want to aggressively defend nature against transgressors, and also punish them...

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## Tzardok

I mean, most deities of nature or wilderness  have at least some worshippers that engage in... let's call it ecoterrorism, and most of those who focus on nature over everything are true neutral, like Silvanus or Obad-Hai, but I don't think any deity is both a nature god and a retribution god. The closest one would propably Ravenloft's Wolf God, who has the tiny little problem of not actually existing. Or Rudra, an Indian god of divine retribution, who also has animals, diseases and storms in his portfolio.

Your other request is going to be easier.

Evil aligned deities with the animal domain are:

Malar (Faerûnian god of beasts and the hunt),Sobek (Pharaonic god of rivers, swamps and crocodiles)Mershaulk (god of the yuan-ti, of snakes and poison, corruption and apocalyptic doom),Sseth (an ascended yuan-ti who replaced Mershaulk in Faerûn before being subsumed by the Pharaonic Set),Camazotz (Aztec god of bats, darkness and sacrifice),Damaran (Touv god of vermin and cowardice),Al-Ishtus (a setting neutral god from Sandstorm; god of desert vermin, marauders and poison)and Sss'thasine'ss (a god of venomous creatures in the dead pantheon of the Sarruck). 
And the Wolf God of course.

If we add deities from older editions that I assigned the animal domain to, we get Daragor (god of werewolfs, beasts and pain in the lycanthrope pantheon) and Warger (a Melanesian god of crocodiles and wild beasts). And Rudra of course.


Evil aligned deities with the plant domain are rarer. There's only Mershaulk and Tlaloc (Aztec god of rain and plague). If we add deities from older editions that I assigned the plant domain to, we also have Hisii (Finnish god of evil).

I hope that helped.

Edit: You may like Tawhiri, a Maori god of storms and the weather. His mythology describes him as an antagonist force, enemy to civilization and humanity. On the other hand, he dislikes the gods of animals and plants too.

Edit 2: Question of my own. Let's say I'm a cleric of the Wolf God or Zhakata or any of the other "only exist in Ravenloft" faiths. And I manage to find my way out of the Demiplane. What happens to my spellcasting? Will I be unable to replenish my spells, as there's nothing I can draw on? Do the Dark Powers continue to supply me with power despite not being in their area of influence anymore? Do I simply draw power through my faith like a cleric of a concept? Or will some god step in and pretend to be my non-existant patron?

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## Dalmosh

Are the other members of the Celestial Hebdomad free to enter Chronius if they wish to?

Are Archons (above Lantern Archons) generally free to move between layers in Celestia?

For that matter, if Lantern Archons are simple penitent souls gradually attuning to Celestia, why do the Hebdomad permit them to be summoned as Celestial Familiars?

If you wanted to represent the soul of an unborn in game, how would it differ from a Lantern Archon?

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## Tzardok

Contrary to what 3.x sources tell you Lantern Archons aren't the petitioners of Celestia. Instead they are created by converting petitioners, similiar to how devils make lemures from theirs. The difference is that archons have standards and don't convert everyone; they respect that not everyone is willing or able to fight the good fight, so they only transform petitioners that can thrive as archons and ask for their informed consent before doing so.

An unborn soul would never be a Lantern Archon, if only because they are not lawful good.

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## Bohandas

How do you interpret the elven trance? Would you play it as a meditative trance, or a deathlike trance, or a psychadelic altered state?

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## Thurbane

I have no RAW to back this up, but I always assumed a meditative trance...

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## Cieyrin

> How do you interpret the elven trance? Would you play it as a meditative trance, or a deathlike trance, or a psychadelic altered state?





> When they enter reverie, elves do not usually close their eyes unless there is a bright light present. They relax their bodies entirely, each muscle losing its rigidity, until they are absolutely calm. Their faces relax into a dazed and distant look as if they were seeing another land or another time.


Sounds like an altered state to me, as it goes further to describe that they're aware of their surroundings but have to tear themselves from reverie to interact with things and even then, they're confused for a bit as they reorient to the here and now, and not their memories that they were reliving.

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## KoDT69

Ok so in my thread like a month ago I asked about deities crossing crystal spheres. I was given an example of the Ishtar? kidnapping the Mulan people and their pantheon crossed over to rescue them. So I was reading the FR wiki and now I'm confused. It says Mulan were not native to Toril. I was under the belief that Toril is the main planet in the Realmspace, and it includes the countries like Faerun, Kara-Tur, etc. So the Pantheon map makes it look like the pantheons are bound to country borders. That makes sense as it mirrors the real world, but does that mean they are included in the same crystal sphere? Or are there multiple crystal spheres on Toril? It also appears that the Prime Material Plane is just one that includes all crystal spheres. Is that part true?

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## Tzardok

Yes, the Prime Material Plane is made of all the crystal spheres and the phlogiston. Each crystal sphere includes a solar system. So Realmspace has a sun in the middle around which planets revolve: Anadia, Coliar, Toril, Karpri, Chandros, Glyth, Garden and H'Catha. If I take a spelljammer and leave the solar system, I'll hit somewhere the crystal sphere's wall. I can then open a portal and leave the sphere into the phlogiston, and if I chose the right direction, I'll reach, for example, Greyspace within a few days (which is geocentric instead of heliocentric, so Oerth lies in the middle and the sun revolves around it).

The thing is, the Imaskari were epic level conjurers. They kidnapped the Mulan from a different crystal sphere, a different solar system somewhere out there (I think Afro named that sphere Ankhspace sometime).

Edit: Question on my part. Mount Olympus is connected to the Olympian pantheon (and Yggdrasil to the Norse). How do such a specialized planar pathways come to be? Did the Olympians create the Mount? Did it come to be incidentally, as a result of their worshippers' faith? Did they just find a mountain shaped planar pathway and suborned/assimiliated it?

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## KoDT69

Ok but here is the selection causing my confusion.

The Mulan were first brought to Toril in −4366 DR, through twin gates to another world created by wizard rulers of the Imaskar Empire.[5][9] They were used as slaves and for many years their fervent prayers went unanswered because of the magical Imaskari barrier. However, with the help of Ao,[citation needed] mortal avatars of the slaves' deities from the Mulhorandi pantheon were able to circumvent the barrier and defeat the Imaskari in −2488 DR.[10]

It says their deities were from the Mulhorandi pantheon which is ON Toril.

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## enderlord99

> Ok but here is the selection causing my confusion.
> 
> The Mulan were first brought to Toril in −4366 DR, through twin gates to another world created by wizard rulers of the Imaskar Empire.[5][9] They were used as slaves and for many years their fervent prayers went unanswered because of the magical Imaskari barrier. However, with the help of Ao,[citation needed] mortal avatars of the slaves' deities from the Mulhorandi pantheon were able to circumvent the barrier and defeat the Imaskari in −2488 DR.[10]
> 
> It says their deities were from the Mulhorandi pantheon which is ON Toril.


It is on Toril, but ti wasn't always.

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## KoDT69

Ok, so let me see if I got this right.

The Mulan were kidnapped from whatever other world. They were brought to Toril as slaves. Eventually their pantheon's avatars got the green light to liberate them from Imaskaris then the liberated Mulan stayed on Toril creating the country of Mulhorand and giving their original deities a presence in Realmspace through their worship?

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## enderlord99

> Ok, so let me see if I got this right.
> 
> The Mulan were kidnapped from whatever other world. They were brought to Toril as slaves. Eventually their pantheon's avatars got the green light to liberate them from Imaskaris then the liberated Mulan stayed on Toril creating the country of Mulhorand and giving their original deities a presence in Realmspace through their worship?


Basically, yeah

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## KoDT69

> Basically, yeah


Thanks! I was trying to figure out how a different country was in a different crystal sphere even tho they are supposed to be solar system sized.

It's still kinda weird with the country boundaries and the pantheons. Do the deities have the same power all over the Realmspace? Or only in the area where their worshippers are concentrated?

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## Thealtruistorc

These conversations about the Mulan have gotten me thinking. If this cultures (IIRC) hails from actual-Earth Egypt, which is in a parallel prime material plane compared to Oerth, does that mean that Faerun and Oerth exist on different prime material planes? How is that reconciled with the two realms being accessible via Spelljamming?

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## afroakuma

> Basically, looking for a patron deity for someone who would want to aggressively defend nature against transgressors, and also punish them...


Remember that true neutral deities of nature, as Tzardok pointed out, have neutral evil worshippers and are on board with a bit of Gaea's Vengeance.




> Edit 2: Question of my own. Let's say I'm a cleric of the Wolf God or Zhakata or any of the other "only exist in Ravenloft" faiths. And I manage to find my way out of the Demiplane. What happens to my spellcasting?


You'll find yourself without spellcasting for a while, since the very conduits you used to draw spell power no longer exist for you. If you're a practicing cleric, you may begin gaining power as though a cleric of a concept, but most likely you will be persuaded to join an actual faith. Or walk away from cleric-ing entirely with your faith broken.




> Are the other members of the Celestial Hebdomad free to enter Chronius if they wish to?


I see nothing to indicate anything in either direction. Closest I have is the tomes don't tend to move between layers, so I doubt it.




> Are Archons (above Lantern Archons) generally free to move between layers in Celestia?


No. They are permitted to move between layers only as instructed, and otherwise must follow paths up the mount like anyone else, earning their way to higher layers. They can always go downward.




> For that matter, if Lantern Archons are simple penitent souls gradually attuning to Celestia, why do the Hebdomad permit them to be summoned as Celestial Familiars?


Not every lantern learns how to advance in the same way - those that are summoned need to learn something about the material realm in order to progress.




> If you wanted to represent the soul of an unborn in game, how would it differ from a Lantern Archon?


...you wouldn't, an unborn soul doesn't become a lantern archon and doesn't exist anywhere that stats would be relevant for.




> How do you interpret the elven trance? Would you play it as a meditative trance, or a deathlike trance, or a psychadelic altered state?


Half meditation, half altered state.




> Ok so in my thread like a month ago I asked about deities crossing crystal spheres. I was given an example of the Ishtar? kidnapping the Mulan people and their pantheon crossed over to rescue them. So I was reading the FR wiki and now I'm confused. It says Mulan were not native to Toril. I was under the belief that Toril is the main planet in the Realmspace, and it includes the countries like Faerun, Kara-Tur, etc. So the Pantheon map makes it look like the pantheons are bound to country borders. That makes sense as it mirrors the real world, but does that mean they are included in the same crystal sphere? Or are there multiple crystal spheres on Toril? It also appears that the Prime Material Plane is just one that includes all crystal spheres. Is that part true?


The Prime Material Plane covers all known crystal spheres, yes. Within the sphere called Realmspace is the planet Toril, which is home to numerous pantheons. The Mulan people were abducted from another world (from Earth, in fact) by the Imaskari.




> Edit: Question on my part. Mount Olympus is connected to the Olympian pantheon (and Yggdrasil to the Norse). How do such a specialized planar pathways come to be? Did the Olympians create the Mount? Did it come to be incidentally, as a result of their worshippers' faith? Did they just find a mountain shaped planar pathway and suborned/assimiliated it?


We don't know how planar pathways form, though as components of the Outer Planes they are built of belief in some fashion. It's likely that either the relative prominence of these pantheons (note how many things are named with their terminology) helped create the pathways, or that they adopted existing elements of the Outer Planes in their own mythos. As an example, I strongly suspect Mount Olympus only became a planar pathway through the beliefs of the Olympian faithful, whereas the River Styx and Charon existed independently and were annexed into Olympian myth.




> Ok, so let me see if I got this right.
> 
> The Mulan were kidnapped from whatever other world. They were brought to Toril as slaves. Eventually their pantheon's avatars got the green light to liberate them from Imaskaris then the liberated Mulan stayed on Toril creating the country of Mulhorand and giving their original deities a presence in Realmspace through their worship?


Correct on all counts. The Mulhorandi pantheon is *currently* one of the pantheons worshipped in Realmspace but they arrived *after* their faithful.




> It's still kinda weird with the country boundaries and the pantheons. Do the deities have the same power all over the Realmspace? Or only in the area where their worshippers are concentrated?


The deities are considered to have a portfolio of responsibilities that is bounded by their geographic region and the needs of their faithful; as an example, the Canadian government is responsible for things going on in Canada, and for the well-being of Canadians if they happen to be outside of Canada. The Mulhorandi pantheon is responsible for their individual portfolios (love, knowledge, death, war, nature, etc.) within Mulhorand and as pertains to the Mulhorandi people *only*; this means that, for instance, Anhur is not to manipulate the weather beyond the boundaries of Mulhorand except at the behest of or to aid a Mulhorandi. Similarly, the Faerûnian pantheon, the most well-known gods of Toril, are prohibited from acting within Mulhorand except under the same terms. Now, it's easy to transgress these rules by simply dispatching minions to cross the border, but there are limits to how much Ao will tolerate deliberate attempts to cross lines.




> These conversations about the Mulan have gotten me thinking. If this cultures (IIRC) hails from actual-Earth Egypt, which is in a parallel prime material plane compared to Oerth, does that mean that Faerun and Oerth exist on different prime material planes? How is that reconciled with the two realms being accessible via Spelljamming?


Few things engender the hate in me that Greenwood and Gygax's inane flirtations with "the real Earth" being connected to the D&D multiverse do. This particular one is thorny because it's quite clear that everyone involved in making statements on this point paid no attention to any of the others, at any time. So we rectify this in one of the following ways:

 The Mulan were abducted from the version of Earth that is on the Prime Material Plane - there is one, after all, and it's very similar to our own with a bit of magic and monsters mixed in (only a bit).
 The Mulan were abducted from the real Earth on an alternate Prime, and their prayers were heard by the Great Wheel equivalents of their deities, who sent their manifestations through Wildspace to aid them.
 The Mulan were abducted from the real Earth on an alternate Prime, and their prayers were heard though the agency of Ao by their gods from that cosmology, who could not directly manifest on Toril due to the Imaskari barrier and so dispatched manifestations that traveled through Wildspace in order to reach the planet.

The canonical answer seems to be somewhere in the milieu of the second or third options there.

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## Lord Xan

What is the connection between elves and the fey? Or what was the connection between the fey and Corellon Larethian when he was creating elves? Is theier resemblance merely artificial and coincidental?

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## Tzardok

According to this post, in afro-canon Corellon Larethian began his existence as "a proto-deity looking to split off from the fey and forge its own path and people."

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## wah3

Some questions related to beings not aging on the Astral Plane:

You can't recover from wounds, poison or diseases that would normally heal with time (except through magical healing), but poison or disease cause no ongoing injury? 
What good are short or long rests on the Astral, just recovery of spells?
Creatures still eat and drink, so presumably digestion still happens. Can you get drunk and recover from it normally?
Can you ferment or distill beverages, or does all of it have to be imported from other planes?
Do plants still live without sunlight, just can't change, grow or propagate?
Can creatures get pregnant? If so, are their offspring just frozen in time inside the being? What about creatures who just split off progeny?
Do all new living creatures (animal, plant, mineral or protozoa) have to be imported from other planes, or are some natives able to spawn and/or grow?

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## Bohandas

> Can creatures get pregnant? If so, are their offspring just frozen in time inside the being? What about creatures who just split off progeny?


IIRC the githyanki canonically have to go off plane to reproduce

----------


## Tzardok

> Some questions related to beings not aging on the Astral Plane:
> 
> You can't recover from wounds, poison or diseases that would normally heal with time (except through magical healing), but poison or disease cause no ongoing injury?


I may misunderstand what you are saying here, but yes, poison and disease don't progess or deal additional damage on the Astral.




> What good are short or long rests on the Astral, just recovery of spells?


3.x doesn't have long or short rests. Arcane spellcasters still need to rest to regain their spells.




> Creatures still eat and drink, so presumably digestion still happens. Can you get drunk and recover from it normally?


Hunger and thirst don't progress either. No idea regarding digestion. Alcohol works rulewise like a poison, so you won't get drunk until you leave.




> Can you ferment or distill beverages, or does all of it have to be imported from other planes?


I would assume no. No rot, no fermentation, no aging.




> Do plants still live without sunlight, just can't change, grow or propagate?


I mean, the Astral is glowing a lot. That should be enough for plants. Of course, no hunger and no thirst propably also extends to "needs no light".




> Do all new living creatures (animal, plant, mineral or protozoa) have to be imported from other planes, or are some natives able to spawn and/or grow?


There are natives, like astral stalkers and astral dreadnoughts. How they propagate is generally a mystery.




> IIRC the githyanki canonically have to go off plane to reproduce


It depends on the interpretation. For example, in 3.x two different sources (both Dragon magazine, IIRC) said two different things. One said that the githyanki have secret bases on the Prime where they reproduce (which logically would mean that they are native to the Material, not the Astral), the other claimed that the Timeless trait of the Astral is suppressed in the vicinity of god corpses, and as that is where the githyanki have their city...

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## Laughing Dog

Also, the githyanki grow food in their capital of Tu'narath.  They have a district that is magically enhanced so time passes normally to allow the plants to grow and mature.  This is from the Planar Handbook page 148.

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## Tzardok

Could you invent some headcanon on the relationship of Maglubiyet and Kikanuti, the goddess of the bhukas, those desert goblinoids from Sandstorm? And on the origin of the Stalker and its hatred for goblinoids?

Edit: What kind of animating force has a psion-killer? Just an earth spirit like other golems or something special?

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## Thealtruistorc

I don't know if this has been answered earlier in the thread, but is the Iron Shadow from _Tales from the Infinite Staircase_ a good example of what an ascended ancient Baatorian might have become? It seems to line up with a lot of the other canon/fanon I've seen about the ancient Baatorians being formless influences.

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## afroakuma

> Could you invent some headcanon on the relationship of Maglubiyet and Kikanuti, the goddess of the bhukas, those desert goblinoids from Sandstorm? And on the origin of the Stalker and its hatred for goblinoids?


I have one, actually, I'll have to copypaste it in here, I think it's already written up.




> Edit: What kind of animating force has a psion-killer? Just an earth spirit like other golems or something special?


The force is a sliver of your own soul, created via _mind seed_.




> I don't know if this has been answered earlier in the thread, but is the Iron Shadow from _Tales from the Infinite Staircase_ a good example of what an ascended ancient Baatorian might have become? It seems to line up with a lot of the other canon/fanon I've seen about the ancient Baatorians being formless influences.


Not a bad idea, honestly!

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## Tzardok

How powerful are the big shots of the exemplars compared to gods? You mentioned once that Mephistopheles could wipe the floor with Doresain if they went mano-a-mano, but Doresain is a young and weak god. At what point would, for example, Demogorgon or Primus lose if they fought a god? Lesser god of lesser import, like Evening Glory? Powerful intermediate deity, like Lolth? Greater god, like Zeus? What about if it wasn't a white-room fight, but a fullscale war using all ressources at their behest?

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## enderlord99

What stats would you give to macaroni slaad?

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## Thurbane

I've seen stats for Caesar Slaad...so...

I can't find the original post from Enworld, but I saved the text:

*Spoiler*
Show

Caesar Slaad
Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 10d8+50 (95 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
AC: 24 (+3 Dex, +11 natural) touch 13, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+14
Attack: Claw +15 melee (2d4+4)
Full Attack: 2 claws +15 melee (2d4+4) and bite +12 melee (2d8+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Summon slaad, toss
Special Qualities: Beware the Ides of March, damage reduction 10/lawful, darkvision 60 ft., et tu Brutus, fast healing 5, immunity to sonic, resistance to acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5, veni, vidi, vici
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +10, Will +9
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 17, Con 21, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 18
Skills: Climb +11, Concentration +18, Diplomacy +23, Escape Artist +24, Hide +16, Jump +17, Intimidate +17, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +17, Listen +15, Move Silently +16, Sense Motive +17, Spot +15, Swim +10, Use Rope +3 (+5 bindings)
Feats: Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Negotiator, Weapon Focus (claw)
Environment: Ever-Changing Chaos of Limbo
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral
Advancement: 11-15 HD (Large); 16-30 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: +6


Lean and quick-looking, this humanoid resembles a two-legged frog. Its skin is green with leaflike scales, and it smells of lemons, garlic, eggs and fish. It wears a purple and gold toga, and a laurel wreath crowns its head.

A caesar slaad often takes command of other slaad, leading them on great conquests. Unfortunately, due to the chaotic nature of the slaadi, the caesar slaad more often than not finds itself slain by its own kind.
Caesar slaadi speak Slaad and Common.

Combat

Caesar slaadi prefer to fight from a distance, using their spell-like abilities, although they don't shy away from melee.
A slaad's natural weapons, as well as any weapon it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Toss (Ex): After a successful charge attack, a caesar slaad gets a free trip attempt. If the caesar slaad wins the opposed Strength check during the trip attempt, instead of simply knocking the opponent prone, it tosses the opponent into the air, dropping the opponent prone into any square it threatens. This toss deals 1d6 points of falling damage in addition to the damage that was done with the initital charge attack. Characters with ranks in the Tumble skill who are not flat-footed can make a Tumble check (DC 15) to avoid this damage and land on their feet.

Beware the Ides of March (Su): The caesar slaad is particularly vulnerable on the 15th day of the third month of a given year. On this day, it's damage reduction and fast healing are suppressed, and it suffers a -10 circumstance penalty on all Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.

Et Tu Brutus? (Su): A caesar slaad can place a dying curse on an ally that has betrayed it. This functions as the bestow curse spell (DC 19), except that it is a free action that may be used on another character's turn, and only when an ally lands a blow that would reduce the caesar slaad to -1 hit points or lower. The save DC is Charimsa-based.

Summon Slaad (Sp): Twice per day a caesar slaad can attempt to summon 1-2 red slaadi or 1 blue slaad with a 60% chance of success, or 1 green slaad with a 40% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 5th-level spell.

Veni, Vidi, Vici (Su): Due to the caesar slaad's amazing confidence, all allies within 60 feet gain a +4 morale bonus on attack rolls.

Skills: Due to the creamy dressing covering its skin, a caesar slaad has a +8 racial bonus on Escape Artist checks.

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## enderlord99

But... Caesar isn't a color!

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## Eldan

> But... Caesar isn't a color!


There's three colors named Caesar on that website you linked  :Small Tongue:

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## Tzardok

This sounds like a thread that could maybe benefit from the 'fro's expertise.

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## Thurbane

Bit of an odd one: are any drow houses, factions or individuals particularly associated with healing and restorative magic? Given the CE nature of drow I suspect not, but thought there might be something.

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## Batcathat

> Bit of an odd one: are any drow houses, factions or individuals particularly associated with healing and restorative magic? Given the CE nature of drow I suspect not, but thought there might be something.


I'm sure there are Drow who knows the value of keeping your victims alive long enough to suffer even more.  :Small Amused:

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## Silva Stormrage

Hello, so I was getting into a debate with some of my players regarding 5.5e's change to move conjuration healing spells to the abjuration school. Had some questions for how the positive/negative planes work. 

From my understanding the positive and negative energy planes are equal and opposite inner planes. Souls get born in the positive energy plane and get energy there then go to the material plane to be born. Then when a creature dies their soul goes to whatever afterlife is important but any lingering energy leftover goes to the negative energy plane. 

Is that correct? Regardless the question is basically what is the connection between the positive and negative energy in 3.5e cosmology.

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## Caelestion

Abjuration?  Good grief.  That makes _four_ different schools they've been associated with, over the years.

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## Inevitability

Cure Wounds is Evocation, Healing Word is Evocation, Heal is Evocation, are you talking about spells like Lesser Restoration (Abjuration)? Because most healing magic is evocation in 5e, especially that focused on healing HP.

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## Tzardok

Whatever. Necromancy is the school they fit in the best.

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## Silva Stormrage

We are talking about the 1 DND playtest and they have cure wounds as abjuration in the latest playtest for the new addition. I edited my original post to be more clear XD

But yes I was arguing for a return to necromancy as well. It's what I houserule in my campaigns.

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## Bohandas

I agree, it definitely should be necromancy

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## afroakuma

> How powerful are the big shots of the exemplars compared to gods? You mentioned once that Mephistopheles could wipe the floor with Doresain if they went mano-a-mano, but Doresain is a young and weak god. At what point would, for example, Demogorgon or Primus lose if they fought a god? Lesser god of lesser import, like Evening Glory? Powerful intermediate deity, like Lolth? Greater god, like Zeus? What about if it wasn't a white-room fight, but a fullscale war using all ressources at their behest?


Depends on a host of conditions, but in general in the abstract a god is going to dunk on an exemplar lord, but the effort and attention required to do so would be taxing to the point of folly. In an all-out war, on average a god will lose purely because they're wasting such a vast amount of resources and attention off the Material Plane. Mano-a-mano in a white room, though, a lesser god typically has the stats to beat the stuffing out of virtually any exemplar lord, and an intermediate deity always will.




> This sounds like a thread that could maybe benefit from the 'fro's expertise.


Addressed it.




> Bit of an odd one: are any drow houses, factions or individuals particularly associated with healing and restorative magic? Given the CE nature of drow I suspect not, but thought there might be something.


Not aware of any off the cuff, though certainly many priestesses of Lolth are healers to some extent.




> From my understanding the positive and negative energy planes are equal and opposite inner planes. Souls get born in the positive energy plane and get energy there then go to the material plane to be born. Then when a creature dies their soul goes to whatever afterlife is important but any lingering energy leftover goes to the negative energy plane. 
> 
> Is that correct? Regardless the question is basically what is the connection between the positive and negative energy in 3.5e cosmology.


They are opposites; Positive Energy is the source of souls, life, vigor, potential, and "energy" in the conventional sense, whereas Negative Energy is the source of entropy, the breaking down of all things, the animi that motivate undead beings. The very event of death is a matter of Negative Energy, as it concerns Positive Energy being separated from the material realm and cast through the Astral Plane.

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## Edreyn

Hello everyone, wasn't here for a long time, now back with more to ask about.

1) Something more on Bytopia. One layer is supposed to be harsh and hostile, designed for pioneers that want to literally turn hell into heaven. Now, can a building of a settlement or "terraforming" of an area be ever finished? If a town in a hostile place can actually be completed, it is something that will make its builders happy when their work is done. But if not, then this work is meaningless and is a torment, similar to what petitioners of Dis get. If an area can actually be civilized, will it move to a peaceful layer?

2) About Blood War. Have there ever been attempts, maybe by some Good, but completely dumb entities, to make peace between devils and demons? I remember that one of those threads said that participants made a few tries that failed, but has anyone from outside ever tried to become the greatest peacemaker in the multiverse?

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## afroakuma

> 1) Something more on Bytopia. One layer is supposed to be harsh and hostile, designed for pioneers that want to literally turn hell into heaven.


I wouldn't characterize it in anywhere near that extreme a fashion. Shurrock is many things, some of them quite dangerous, but it is quite far from "hell." It's rugged and unforgiving, but much like any good wilderness where one wants to camp or build a cottage or lodge, richly rewarding to tame a little toehold.




> Now, can a building of a settlement or "terraforming" of an area be ever finished?


Absolutely. Plenty of settlements on Shurrock. Plenty of settlements in Pandemonium, really.




> If a town in a hostile place can actually be completed, it is something that will make its builders happy when their work is done. But if not, then this work is meaningless and is a torment, similar to what petitioners of Dis get. If an area can actually be civilized, will it move to a peaceful layer?


If it became truly "civilized" and agrarian, then it's likely it would migrate to Dothion, but it would take a lot for that. Picture Shurrock's settlements more like frontier towns, fortified palisades, and resolute little homesteads. It would be hell for me, because I hate the "great" outdoors with a vicious passion, but if I didn't have to personally build the cottage and could just stay in it stoking a fire and enjoying the sound of the wind and snow, I'd probably quite enjoy my time there.




> 2) About Blood War. Have there ever been attempts, maybe by some Good, but completely dumb entities, to make peace between devils and demons?


Oh undoubtedly. They probably tasted really good with ketchup.




> I remember that one of those threads said that participants made a few tries that failed, but has anyone from outside ever tried to become the greatest peacemaker in the multiverse?


Definitely. It was definitely a bad idea and they definitely made a fine Jackson Pollock painting with their blood.

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## Edreyn

Yeah, I guess neither baatezu nor tanar'ru like peacemakers. Except when the word "like" is how Oona gets it.

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## Tzardok

What position/location/whatever has the Temporal Energy Plane in the Great Wheel? What planes does it touch and what connections does it have? Are there Quasi-Elemental planes representing the combination of an element and temporal energy? Or is it just some demiplane with delusions of grandeur, like the "Elemental Plane" of Electromagnetism?

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## SirKazum

> What position/location/whatever has the Temporal Energy Plane in the Great Wheel? What planes does it touch and what connections does it have? Are there Quasi-Elemental planes representing the combination of an element and temporal energy? Or is it just some demiplane with delusions of grandeur, like the "Elemental Plane" of Electromagnetism?


Was it called Temporal Energy Plane? I don't have it with me but I seem to remember from Chronomancer that it was called Temporal Prime. But it kinda had the look and feel of an Inner Plane, so who knows.

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## Tzardok

> Was it called Temporal Energy Plane? I don't have it with me but I seem to remember from Chronomancer that it was called Temporal Prime. But it kinda had the look and feel of an Inner Plane, so who knows.


Temporal Prime and the Temporal Energy Plane aren't the same thing. The first one is from Chronomancer (and isn't truly a plane at all, but a "dimension"), the other is an optional plane described in the 3.0 Manual of the Plane. In one of the older threads Afro made a post on the differences between them (and the third one, the Demiplane of Time) that made it look like all three have a place in the Wheel. I'm wondering now what this place looks like.

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## SirKazum

> Temporal Prime and the Temporal Energy Plane aren't the same thing. The first one is from Chronomancer (and isn't truly a plane at all, but a "dimension"), the other is an optional plane described in the 3.0 Manual of the Plane. In one of the older threads Afro made a post on the differences between them (and the third one, the Demiplane of Time) that made it look like all three have a place in the Wheel. I'm wondering now what this place looks like.


Oh, okay. Forgot about the 3.0 MotP. Then again, the "new" stuff it introduces is usually meant for alternate cosmologies, no? IIRC it's the one that introduced the concept that the Plane of Shadows can serve as the connection to other multiverses with varying cosmologies, and stuff like Temporal Energy Plane, Plane of Dreams, Plane of Mirrors etc. are meant to be optional stuff you can fit into your custom cosmology however you want, or at least that's the impression I remember from it.

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## Tzardok

IIRC most of these planes (Dream, Faerie, Mirror, the Far Realm) were at least mentioned in some way in 2e, and Afro-canon treats them as (anomalous) parts of the Great Wheel (except for the Far Realms for obvious reasons). He certainly answers questions about them, even if the knowledge base for them is often... sparse. So why not Temporal Energy?

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## afroakuma

> What position/location/whatever has the Temporal Energy Plane in the Great Wheel?


Temporal Energy is a weird kind of plane because it exists insofar as it has to, and bears features of both an Inner Plane and a Transitive Plane. It is, ultimately, an aberration of the cosmos, one of the more novel of its sort (the Region of Dreams and the Plane of Faerie are examples of other aberrant planes). Cosmologically if it could be "situated" it would be at the heart of the other Inner Planes and yet outside them; it is a face of a hypercube, as it were, a four-dimensional location for the fourth dimension of existence.




> What planes does it touch and what connections does it have?


In one sense, Temporal Energy technically touches virtually all of them, but in the traditional sense of planar connections it does not; rather, it is coexistent with Temporal Prime, and "contacts" other planes by way of that dimension. In the sense of borders, it has none.




> Are there Quasi-Elemental planes representing the combination of an element and temporal energy?


No. Sages have theorized the existence of mysterious "transitional force" or "transitional existence" regions in the Elemental and Energy Planes that represent a contact between that plane and Temporal Energy, but no serious student of planar metaphysics pays them any heed.

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## Tzardok

Damn, that answer was inspiring. I actually designed a creature to inhabit transitional areas. You can see it here, if you want.

Besides that, I wanted to remind you that you wanted to post your headcanon on the relationship between Maglubiyet and Kikanuti.

I also have two questions, if you feel up for it:

What's the deal with ogre magi? My understanding is that ogres are the creation of Vaprak, but he doesn't sound like the guy who would create the magi. So where do they come from, and what is their relationship to actual ogres?

If an ur-priest enters the Demiplane of Dread, does he still do his thing? Is he still "stealing" trickling down divine power, does he "steal" from the Dark Powers, or do the Dark Powers their usual and just gift power to him while pretending to be something else? Does he notice a difference?

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## afroakuma

> Besides that, I wanted to remind you that you wanted to post your headcanon on the relationship between Maglubiyet and Kikanuti.


Kikanuti is, or at least originally was, a piece of Maglubiyet.

At the dawn of goblinkind, there was a darkness, a great cavern, and in that darkness burned a mighty ember, some say a burning drop of the blood of Gruumsh that reviled its origin due to the weakness that caused it to be shed; others suggest a spark from the first strikes of Moradin's hammer on his anvil. Whatever its origin, the ember was a pair of flaming eyes that looked past the darkness and saw another light beyond. The ember sought to grow, to spread, to devour this light and become the only light. Part of the ember sought to go forth, to discover this other light, to know it and spread within it, to explore and to conquer. The greater part of the ember was suspicious of the other light, for if the ember wished to devour this other, surely that other would seek to devour the ember in kind. To go forth in ignorance would be foolish, but to remain in the darkness would mean it could not conquer.

The ember tore the lesser part of itself away and made it into another being, something it was willing to sacrifice. The part of itself that wanted to go forth and see. To spread. The ember commanded his other half to go out of the darkness, to look upon the other light and to come back with knowledge. She went forth as instructed, returning to tell the ember that within the light, many creatures were spreading, multiplying, exploring, conquering. The ember, suspicious, considered the possibility that this was a trick by his other half, to pull him from his safety in the darkness and bring him among enemies to be ambushed; however, not wanting to chance that she might be telling the truth and he could be outpaced by such rivals, he joined with her, giving but the least of himself, and they created the goblins. He would not give more, for he feared that his creations would turn their strength against him, and could not stand to be betrayed. These, of course, were Maglubiyet and Kikanuti.

Kikanuti wanted Maglubiyet to join her beyond the cavern, to step into the light along with their creations, but once again he was suspicious; perhaps she had tricked him into spreading himself among these lesser beings so that he could be made vulnerable. Knowing she had given of herself in kind, he tested her by asking her to go forth once more alone. Kikanuti went forth bearing nothing but her counterpart's suspicions of being led into an ambush, and a shadowy entity of formless power and a hunger to take shape was drawn to the foul suspicions that Maglubiyet had harbored around his consort, merging with the latent curse of the goblin god and seizing Kikanuti, wresting from her a part of the goblinoid nature and carrying it off to shadows of its own. This was Hruggek, and with his assault of the goddess, the bugbear race was born.

When she returned, Maglubiyet could see that his fears were realized, but Kikanuti rebuked him, saying that he was responsible for bringing his own fears to life, and that if they went forth there would be nothing to fear. Convinced that she was unreliable, he "relented," joining with her to create two sons - one strong, one bold - and sending them forth along with any of his creations who seemed more akin to their curious mother than their suspicious father, hoping his sons would report on their mother's falsehoods, asking all three to return to pledge that the world was as she said it was. This time, Kikanuti refused to return; she had her children free from the darkness, Maglubiyet had his sons to struggle with their father's suspicion and distrust, and it had been she who had paid the price for his poisonous nature last time. No longer would she waste her time on him, and when his sons returned to announce this, also telling their father that rivals drew near and that the time to act had come, he decided they had all betrayed him and that his sons, two against one, would surely betray him if he did not act first.

Flattering his sons, he manipulated them, sending them forth on missions of great importance - the time to act, as they had said. Sent to challenge the gods of the dwarves and the orcs, his sons did not return from the field of battle, for he had intentionally dispatched them to die. However, by now, Maglubiyet had overextended himself. He had cast off much of himself to create Kikanuti, fearing his own impulse to explore would be the death of him; spread a meager but still meaningful part of his essence into goblinkind, out of fear that he should be outpaced by unknown rivals; invested still more of himself into his sons, to confirm his suspicions of his wife. As he had remained in his cavern and cast so much of his own self away, he had grown weaker, and with none left to serve him and unwilling to risk surrendering even more of himself, he at long last grew fearful of remaining in the darkness and being seized upon by something that would come in to destroy him. He led his goblins out into the light, only to find that because of his meanness in giving of himself to them, his vast delay in bringing them forth on the world, and his casting aside from them all that should have belonged to them, his creations were smaller, weaker, and ill-suited to cooperating with one another to accomplish his goals. Maglubiyet reclaimed the bodies of his dead sons and from their essence brought forth a stronger creation, the hobgoblin; but ever suspicious that he might be betrayed, he elevated Khurgorbaeyag to divinity to "motivate" the goblins while fusing his sons' bodies together to create the hobgoblin patron Nomog-Geaya, putting them at odds to keep himself feeling secure.

Kikanuti has never bothered with any of them, nor with the meager overtures of Bargrivyek the Peacekeeper; her children have what they have of Maglubiyet and she has no desire to deal with him now or ever again. As he had exiled them all in the dark era, the goblin god has no claim over them. Meanwhile, from his fears in the darkness, festering for untold aeons, a terrible shadow came forth - something Maglubiyet had cast from himself without ever knowing it. The darkness desired his fear. The darkness desired to bring the death he dreaded. When the goblins and their god left the cave, the darkness followed - a Stalker hunting goblins, death ever at their heels.




> What's the deal with ogre magi? My understanding is that ogres are the creation of Vaprak, but he doesn't sound like the guy who would create the magi. So where do they come from, and what is their relationship to actual ogres?


Ogre magi, otherwise known as oni, emanate from an effort of Vaprak to create divinely-empowered champions to bring destruction to the civilized races by incarnating three of his offspring on the Prime Material Plane. While his attempts failed, the bloodlines of his son Muaj and those who followed him became the first ogre mages after the wrathful Vaprak, furious that his sons failed him, exiled them from the Abyss. The existence of other forms of oni as well as the so-called "elemental mages" suggests that he's made multiple attempts at this same gimmick. Vaprak is nothing if not riddled with offspring and also deeply persistently stupid and angry.




> If an ur-priest enters the Demiplane of Dread, does he still do his thing?


Yes but no. He's no longer truly stealing from the divine. He's getting his juice from the Dark Powers deciding it would be funny to let him have it.




> Does he notice a difference?


Oh very yes. An ur-priest in the Demiplane of Dread finds his stealing beginning to catch up to him. In some form or other, the spells he "steals" begin to come for payback. An ur-priest casting a healing spell might discover the healed wound reflecting on his own body with a scar or see his skin break out in hives or boils; casting a buff like _bull's strength_ on himself might result in temporary but quite apparent physical deformity, perhaps with some lingering touches. The ur-priest will grow increasingly paranoid that the gods know about him and are out to get him, and of course the Dark Powers will enjoy that.

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## Tzardok

That was a very nice origin story. And as a bonus, it also explains what I call the Bugbear Problem.  :Small Smile:

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## enderlord99

I find it darkly hilarious how Maglubiyet is so thoroughly trapped in a paranoid loop of "I think my creation might lie to me, so I'll create another one that won't, to verify... but what if it also lies? I'd better make another other one to verify..." that such thinking is the origin of literally every other Goblin deity *and* literally every goblin subrace (even if it's somewhat indirectly, in the case of bugbears)

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## Tzardok

Can the cosmology of Rokugan, as described in Fortunes and Winds, be reconciled with the Great Wheel? Or must Rokugan be relegated to an alternate cosmology?

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## afroakuma

> Can the cosmology of Rokugan, as described in Fortunes and Winds, be reconciled with the Great Wheel? Or must Rokugan be relegated to an alternate cosmology?


Have never read the book, but from a cursory summary...

 *Jigoku* would be a layer, or multiple layers, of the Abyss.
 *Gaki-Do* would be a realm or region of Cathrys, second layer of Carceri.
 *Sakkaku* would be a realm or region of Limbo.
 *Meido* would be a local region of the Astral Plane.
 *Yomi* would be a realm or region of Abellio, first layer of Arcadia.
 *Tengoku* would be a realm or region of Mercuria (possibly sliding to Lunia during the night and back again), second (and first) layer(s) of Celestia.
 *Chikushudo* would be a realm or region of Krigala (likely either stationary or shifting to Brux and Karasuthra appropriately), first (or all) layer(s) of the Beastlands.
 *Toshigoku* would be a realm or region of Thuldanin, second layer of Acheron.
 *Yume-Do* is the Region of Dreams.

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## Tzardok

Part of the problem I had with the cosmology is that it apparantly has no transitive planes, with different contact points (based on "proximity" which again is based on conceptual connections and the will of the inhabitants) where one can open portals as the main way of getting from one spirit realm to another. This interpretation would require a lot of irregular planar contacts (Yomi and Jigoku for example have lots of connection points as they represent to sides of the same coin: absolute honor vs. aboslute vileness and dishonor).

Still, I think I can work with that. Thanks for your answer.

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## afroakuma

> Part of the problem I had with the cosmology is that it apparantly has no transitive planes, with different contact points (based on "proximity" which again is based on conceptual connections and the will of the inhabitants) where one can open portals as the main way of getting from one spirit realm to another. This interpretation would require a lot of irregular planar contacts (Yomi and Jigoku for example have lots of connection points as they represent to sides of the same coin: absolute honor vs. aboslute vileness and dishonor).
> 
> Still, I think I can work with that. Thanks for your answer.


Not really all that hard, we've seen plenty of realms with connections between two planes (Hecate's two realms, for example) and even have a documented case of a direct portal from the Abyss to Celestia. For spiritual realms connected to the same local Astral and Ethereal phenomena, and here it's more a particularity of the sphere than anything else, it's not at all unreasonable that they have more substantial connections by and large. It's not like they are actually physically proximate; more metaphysically so. The sphere would simply be a lot more Astrally active than most are. Could be the reason why their realm of the dead is actually within the Astral rather than being fully housed on an Outer Plane.

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## enderlord99

Does this song fit with Ravenloft, and if so, which Domain?

I'm tempted to presume "yes" because "heaven ain't close in a place like this" certainly fits with a place that's both evil-leaning (making the Upper Planes conceptually far) and on the Ethereal (making all of the Outer Planes physically far)

Furthermore, I'm also tempted to say "Barovia" because it's about both romantic jealousy and seeing the same faces repeatedly.

I wanted to check that my reasoning isn't stupid, though.

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## Tzardok

> Have never read the book, but from a cursory summary...
> 
>  *Jigoku* would be a layer, or multiple layers, of the Abyss.
>  *Gaki-Do* would be a realm or region of Cathrys, second layer of Carceri.
>  *Sakkaku* would be a realm or region of Limbo.
>  *Meido* would be a local region of the Astral Plane.
>  *Yomi* would be a realm or region of Abellio, first layer of Arcadia.
>  *Tengoku* would be a realm or region of Mercuria (possibly sliding to Lunia during the night and back again), second (and first) layer(s) of Celestia.
>  *Chikushudo* would be a realm or region of Krigala (likely either stationary or shifting to Brux and Karasuthra appropriately), first (or all) layer(s) of the Beastlands.
> ...


After re-reading Fortune & Winds, I've come to the conclusion that all of those are good fits except maybe for Sakkaku. I feel that it fits better as a region of the Plane of Faerie, on account of its association with humour and whimsy, its very fey and trickster- like inhabitants, the inability of other planes to shut it out and its aberrant cosmological place (it's the only plane in the cosmology that never receives the souls of the dead, nor does it house any deities). Not to mention that it has an actual landscape resembling the Material (even if it has no buildings or plants, the ground looks like it's polished and the sky is eternal dusk). I am undecided because it's metaphysics _do_ have a certain amount of "lolrandom" in them, and it lacks Faerie's flowing time trait.

Other questions: I've been thinking about a common language of Shadow (let's call it Tenebric). Would introducing such a language be appropriate, or is there something to Shadow's metaphysics or themes that justifies canon's lack of such a language?

Do we know anything about Merrshaulk's origin (that isn't Serpent Kingdom's retcon)?

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## enderlord99

> Other questions: I've been thinking about a common language of Shadow (let's call it Tenebric). Would introducing such a language be appropriate, or is there something to Shadow's metaphysics or themes that justifies canon's lack of such a language?


It stretches really far (though not Far) and is really big, even when compared to other planes.  There may well be a language for _parts of_ shadow, even very large parts, but not for shadow as a whole.  "Tenebric" is a good enough name for it.

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## Caelestion

Ugh, not Tenebric.  At least pick a real word, like Tenebrous.

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## Tzardok

I was told that Tenebric _is_ real word. Allegedly it means something like "vague, incomprehensible, confusing". My first choice would've been Tenebral, in accordance with the German names of the elemental languages (which would mean that in English it would be Tenebran).

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## Metastachydium

> Ugh, not Tenebric.  At least pick a real word, like Tenebrous.





> I was told that Tenebric _is_ real word. Allegedly it means something like "vague, incomprehensible, confusing". My first choice would've been Tenebral, in accordance with the German names of the elemental languages (which would mean that in English it would be Tenebran).





> Allegedly


You _wound_ me, good Sir. I will readily grant that our (ancient?) Baatorian fellow poster is not entirely incorrect insofar it might not be a codified lexeme of standard English, but it is very much a real word, derived regularly through the usual end clipping from Latin _tenebricus, -a, -um_ which _does_ have the specified figurative meaning and quite officially at that. The same does not quite stand for such gems from D&D as _Aquan_ to stay within the context of languages and their denominations (and since I'd rather pretend no one ever tried to use the word _*noctumancer_ for any purpose whatsoever). 

I could go on to posit that I find _Tenebrous_ a horrible name for a D&D language, given that it doesn't really fit any of the established templates, but that's ultimately a matter of taste. Instead, I will challenge the notion that the Plane of Shadow is unfit to have a lingua franca of its own. Half the Great Wheel from Arcadia to Ysgard gets Clestial as its "Common". The Abyss, a supremely Chaotic and diffuse place of _more infinite than thou_ proportions likewise gets away with having a single language, Abyssal.

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## Tzardok

> You _wound_ me, good Sir. I will readily grant that our (ancient?) Baatorian fellow poster is not entirely incorrect insofar it might not be a codified lexeme of standard English, but it is very much a real word, derived regularly through the usual end clipping from Latin _tenebricus, -a, -um_ which _does_ have the specified figurative meaning and quite officially at that. The same does not quite stand for such gems from D&D as _Aquan_ to stay within the context of languages and their denominations


In that regard the German translation is a bit better. Of the elemental languages, one is in fact a real word (Aural is the adjective to aura) and the others are derived from that (Aqual, Ignal and Terral).

Edit: And as for why I said allegedly, it's because after being questioned I did a cursory look in the lexicon and didn't find it, so I wanted to hedge my bets. But you propably have experiences with "hedging"  :Small Wink: 




> I could go on to posit that I find _Tenebrous_ a horrible name for a D&D language, given that it doesn't really fit any of the established templates, but that's ultimately a matter of taste.


I would agree. Tenebrous sound more like a being instead of a language (and oh wonder, it _is_ a being in the context of D&D.)




> Instead, I will challenge the notion that the Plane of Shadow is unfit to have a lingua franca of its own. Half the Great Wheel from Arcadia to Ysgard gets Celestial as its "Common".


Incidentally, you may like what the fanmade conversion of Planescape to 3.5 on planewalker.com did: it stated that the Archons, Guardinals and Eladrin all used to have languages on their own, but over millenia of cooperation these fused into Celestial. Archon, Elysian and Eladrin are still spoken by some beings, but are generally not used anymore.
(planewalker also invented Fiendish as a failed experiment of a lingua franca of the fiendish races.)




> The Abyss, a supremely Chaotic and diffuse place of _more infinite than thou_ proportions likewise gets away with having a single language, Abyssal.


On the other hand, the Abyss is mostly inhabited by a single group of beings, even if it is as diverse as demons. Shadow lacks such a group.
On the athach's third hand, according to the Spelljammer setting Common is spoken on pretty much any world, even those that never were touched by human hands, so that is not exactly a counter argument.

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## Metastachydium

> Edit: And as for why I said allegedly, it's because after being questioned I did a cursory look in the lexicon and didn't find it, so I wanted to hedge my bets.


(I'm fairly convinced that a language like the hypothetical Tenebric would have at least four ways to mark that uncertainty on the predicate itself, so that's kind of all too appropriate.)




> But you propably have experiences with "hedging"


Heh. You bet!




> Incidentally, you may like what the fanmade conversion of Planescape to 3.5 on planewalker.com did: it stated that the Archons, Guardinals and Eladrin all used to have languages on their own, but over millenia of cooperation these fused into Celestial. Archon, Elysian and Eladrin are still spoken by some beings, but are generally not used anymore.
> (planewalker also invented Fiendish as a failed experiment of a lingua franca of the fiendish races.)


Yeah, that's somewhat better. (And the idea that the Devils or the Yugoloths would try to create a Fiendish lingua franca for all fiends, leading to the greatest epic fail in the history of language planning makes nine kinds of sense.)




> On the other hand, the Abyss is mostly inhabited by a single group of beings, even if it is as diverse as demons. Shadow lacks such a group.
> On the athach's third hand, according to the Spelljammer setting Common is spoken on pretty much any world, even those that never were touched by human hands, so that is not exactly a counter argument.


Plus, the demons are more like three groups (obyrith, tanar'ri, loumara) at the least that _hate_ each other. And the tanar'ri also kind of hate each other. _And_ then we didn't even touch upon all the other weird folks living in the Abyss. I think it won't surprise you much that I'm _very_ fond of the Abrians.

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## Xihirli

Whoaaaa heck these are still going? I've been reading a bunch of your archive for like... over a year now, didn't know you were still around the forum and doing this. 
I'm using your So You Want to Kill and Orc to run my players through a campaign set in the beginning of the Netherese war on the Orcs of Anauroch. 

Anything I should know about the way Netheril generally handles war? Or is that not really elaborated on?

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## Tzardok

> Yeah, that's somewhat better. (And the idea that the Devils or the Yugoloths would try to create a Fiendish lingua franca for all fiends, leading to the greatest epic fail in the history of language planning makes nine kinds of sense.)


It was propably an attempt of the devils. Not only are the Lawful guys more likely to try the whole cooperation thing, Fiendish is also described as very simplified Infernal with some borrowed grammar and vocabulary from Abyssal and Yugoloth.
Incidentally, my headcanon is that Archon, Modron and Infernal have a common ancestor that also isn't in use anymore. So if Law ever needed to do large scale cooperation they would have a common language available. In that way, the linguae francae of the alignments reflect them pretty much: Law started singularily and diversified over time in the face of reality's complexity, for Good different perspectives came together for the sake of cooperation, Evil tried the same, but failed because of its flaws, and Chaos never tried to unify and doesn't want to anyway.




> Plus, the demons are more like three groups (obyrith, tanar'ri, loumara) at the least that _hate_ each other. And the tanar'ri also kind of hate each other. _And_ then we didn't even touch upon all the other weird folks living in the Abyss. I think it won't surprise you much that I'm _very_ fond of the Abrians.


One needs to keep in mind that the tana'ri used to be a servant race of the obyrith back during the one time the Abyss was unified, so them speaking the same language makes sense. And after they took over, they certainly didn't go "Now that we freed ourselves from the oppressors' yoke, let's make our own language", but more "This language is mine now by right of conquest, muahaha!" And the loumara, the abrians and all that other stuff are propably more like the new kids on the block who better get on with the program or get eaten.
By the way, I imagine that Abyssal doesn't change a lot over time, because of all those ancient demon lords: "This is the way I talk. If you don't understand what I'm saying, I'll wreck your face. If I can't understand what you are saying, I'll wreck your face." Language evolution and standards by violence. Fits.  :Small Amused:

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## afroakuma

> After re-reading Fortune & Winds, I've come to the conclusion that all of those are good fits except maybe for Sakkaku. I feel that it fits better as a region of the Plane of Faerie, on account of its association with humour and whimsy, its very fey and trickster- like inhabitants, the inability of other planes to shut it out and its aberrant cosmological place (it's the only plane in the cosmology that never receives the souls of the dead, nor does it house any deities). Not to mention that it has an actual landscape resembling the Material (even if it has no buildings or plants, the ground looks like it's polished and the sky is eternal dusk). I am undecided because it's metaphysics _do_ have a certain amount of "lolrandom" in them, and it lacks Faerie's flowing time trait.


I think Sakkaku is too malicious and lolrandom to be Faerie. Fey have rules, even the most chaotic of them, it's just that they are rules which are rarely fair or easily understood. It's part of what makes fey so dangerous and unpredictable - because there is an internal consistency to their actions that outsiders cannot easily read. The inhabitants of Sakkaku have no rules of any kind. It's arguably a region of Limbo where the collective will of the inhabitants is to disempower anyone from applying their will to reshape the realm, because the exercise of will or belief in control and order is to be denied and viciously mocked. The fact that the orochi hailed from there is another point in favor of Limbo over Faerie.




> Other questions: I've been thinking about a common language of Shadow (let's call it Tenebric). Would introducing such a language be appropriate, or is there something to Shadow's metaphysics or themes that justifies canon's lack of such a language?


The peoples of Shadow are insular, often xenophobic, highly scattered, and mysterious by nature. None of them would *want* to be understood by the rest in a common language.




> Do we know anything about Merrshaulk's origin (that isn't Serpent Kingdom's retcon)?


Merrshaulk is an elder god, an old and vile thing, and was at one time a little-known reptilian power who slowly developed a cult among humans. This cult called forth a foul "blessing" from their evil divinity and were "gifted" offspring that were part serpent, the first yuan-ti.




> The Abyss, a supremely Chaotic and diffuse place of _more infinite than thou_ proportions likewise gets away with having a single language, Abyssal.


Abyssal exists and functions because it is the will of demons that they be understood by others when they speak. It's sort of the hammer-to-the-face of languages.




> Whoaaaa heck these are still going? I've been reading a bunch of your archive for like... over a year now, didn't know you were still around the forum and doing this.


Oh they can't get rid of me.




> I'm using your So You Want to Kill and Orc to run my players through a campaign set in the beginning of the Netherese war on the Orcs of Anauroch.


Well that's fun to hear. Let me know if there's anything missing from it that you would like to have added, I know I left those things unfinished. It's my ENFP brain.  :Small Tongue: 




> Anything I should know about the way Netheril generally handles war? Or is that not really elaborated on?


Depends on which era; in the late age of Netheril, they had flying cities and so much magic that war with anyone other than other archmagi ceased being a serious concern (*or did it???* said the phaerimm...) and so they wouldn't have needed to bother. In the time of Ioulaum, war was waged against the orcs using a network of _gates_ to rapidly mobilize an army over 50,000 strong, of whom 32,000 would end up very very dead - in exchange for 140,000 orc lives. This campaign was called the "Excursion into Extinction" as Ioulaum's goal was to totally extirpate the orcs from the land.

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## Tzardok

> The fact that the orochi hailed from there is another point in favor of Limbo over Faerie.


I'm afraid I don't get that point. Unless you are alluding to Susano-o's divine realm also being in Limbo?




> The peoples of Shadow are insular, often xenophobic, highly scattered, and mysterious by nature. None of them would want to be understood by the rest in a common language.


In that case I would expect most of them to have languages on their own, but most that I remember use instead languages shared with beings from other planes. Khayal speak elemental and Outer Planes languages, shadar-kai speak Sylvan, and so on.

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## afroakuma

> I'm afraid I don't get that point. Unless you are alluding to Susano-o's divine realm also being in Limbo?


I'm alluding to fey don't want to leave Faerie with the intent of never returning.




> In that case I would expect most of them to have languages on their own, but most that I remember use instead languages shared with beings from other planes. Khayal speak elemental and Outer Planes languages, shadar-kai speak Sylvan, and so on.


They likely do, but they also retain languages for the peoples they *want* to talk to - the khayal remember how to deal with other genies, and so on. They don't look to teach anyone their own language.

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## Xihirli

> Well that's fun to hear. Let me know if there's anything missing from it that you would like to have added, I know I left those things unfinished. It's my ENFP brain. 
> 
> Depends on which era; in the late age of Netheril, they had flying cities and so much magic that war with anyone other than other archmagi ceased being a serious concern (*or did it???* said the phaerimm...) and so they wouldn't have needed to bother. In the time of Ioulaum, war was waged against the orcs using a network of _gates_ to rapidly mobilize an army over 50,000 strong, of whom 32,000 would end up very very dead - in exchange for 140,000 orc lives. This campaign was called the "Excursion into Extinction" as Ioulaum's goal was to totally extirpate the orcs from the land.


Glad you're happy. I've gotten enough to construct a clan of orcs that specifically venerate Vasthu and have a lot of pride in him being one of their founders. 
I'm thinking of that first try by Ioulaum, and just because why would I include Netheril otherwise I will do whatever timey-wimey stuff I have to to make it so that there's at least ONE mythal. 
I guess my questions would be about the army of 50,000. Would they all have some proficiency in arcane magic? Would they all even be Neth (the ethnicity)? Netheril was, after all, an Empire, and that suggests the subsuming of other culture(s). I always figured at least Low Netheril would be made up of many ethnicities and cultures, so long as they're all HUMAN.
Anauroch _was_ a desert at this point in history, right? That didn't happen AFTER Netheril pulled a Netheril on it?

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## Bohandas

> Incidentally, you may like what the fanmade conversion of Planescape to 3.5 on planewalker.com did: it stated that the Archons, Guardinals and Eladrin all used to have languages on their own, but over millenia of cooperation these fused into Celestial. Archon, Elysian and Eladrin are still spoken by some beings, but are generally not used anymore.
> (planewalker also invented Fiendish as a failed experiment of a lingua franca of the fiendish races.)


Is that in their 9 chapter pdf series? and if so, which chapter?

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## Tzardok

Chapter 2 has the section on languages, I think. I'm not sure; it has been ages since I read it.

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## afroakuma

> I'm thinking of that first try by Ioulaum, and just because why would I include Netheril otherwise I will do whatever timey-wimey stuff I have to to make it so that there's at least ONE mythal.


Actually, the campaign against the orcs happened 131 years before Ioulaum created the first mythallar.




> I guess my questions would be about the army of 50,000. Would they all have some proficiency in arcane magic?


The ethnic Neth were all introduced to basic magical education at the age of 13, though not all would go on to seriously study it. In effect, I would say treat all noncasters as though they possessed the Magical TrainingFRCS feat.




> Would they all even be Neth (the ethnicity)? Netheril was, after all, an Empire, and that suggests the subsuming of other culture(s). I always figured at least Low Netheril would be made up of many ethnicities and cultures, so long as they're all HUMAN.


At that time, Netheril was more imperial in the sense that the original seven villages had united as one collective and enforced claims on their territory. They hadn't conquered any other peoples, and their limited contact with the Earlanni and Illefarni elves as well as the Delzoun dwarves was chiefly trade-based. The only other civilization they had encountered by that point would have been the Rengarth, a barbarian nation of humans that was wiped out by an orc horde.




> Anauroch _was_ a desert at this point in history, right? That didn't happen AFTER Netheril pulled a Netheril on it?


The Netheril region was plains, hills, rivers, forests, pretty lush and verdant. The erosion of the ecosystem wasn't caused by Netheril (though they didn't help) but rather by the _lifedrain_ magic of the subterranean phaerimm, which would take place a few thousand years after the time you're in.

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## Xihirli

Thank you Akuma!

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## Batcathat

> Thank you Akuma!


Huh. This is literally the first time I've realized that it's Afro_a_kuma and not Afrokuma. My worldview (or at least my confidence in my eye for detail) is shaken.  :Small Red Face: 

(Well, technically I suppose it's afroakuma, I do get a vaguely annoyed about people randomly capitalizing my name, so I really shouldn't do it to other people).

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## Tzardok

If I had a nickel for every time someone suddenly realized in this thread that it's akuma, not kuma, I would have two nickels. That's not a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.

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## SirKazum

I would've thought the avatar showing Akuma from the Street Fighter franchise sporting an afro would dispel any misconceptions about the name, but apparently no, it seems...

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## Bohandas

What's up with the moon in Sithicus? Is it a window to the real Nuitari or is it a fake? And if it's a fake is it an illusion or a physical fake?

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## afroakuma

> What's up with the moon in Sithicus? Is it a window to the real Nuitari or is it a fake? And if it's a fake is it an illusion or a physical fake?


It's fake, and quite likely an illusion; the Dark Powers have never been documented to bother with extending the reality of a domain to wildspace.

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## MinimanMidget

A friend of mine has a vague memory of a Forgotten Realms (extinct) civilisation where everyone had their hand/arm replaced with some sort of cyst. Google and the wiki are failing us, does this sound familiar to anyone here?

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## Inevitability

> A friend of mine has a vague memory of a Forgotten Realms (extinct) civilisation where everyone had their hand/arm replaced with some sort of cyst. Google and the wiki are failing us, does this sound familiar to anyone here?


Does your friend play MtG? This almost sounds like Ravnica's Cytoplasts, maybe some memories got jumbled up?

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## MinimanMidget

> Does your friend play MtG? This almost sounds like Ravnica's Cytoplasts, maybe some memories got jumbled up?


No, unfortunately, and they definitely remember it as a characteristic of a civilisation, not just the work of a single person.

Edit: Apparently it was actually Eberron, and the daelkyr with their symbionts. Which was one of the first things I asked, and they said no. 😒

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## Bohandas

What's up with Tristessa, the banshee of Keening? She doesn't seem to have a worse rap sheet than any other Lolth cultist, and seems to have been on the outs with them when she was taken by the mists. How did she become a darklord?

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## afroakuma

> What's up with Tristessa, the banshee of Keening? She doesn't seem to have a worse rap sheet than any other Lolth cultist, and seems to have been on the outs with them when she was taken by the mists. How did she become a darklord?


She betrayed her people to become a cultist of Lolth, waged a proxy war on her own people that consumed hundreds of innocent mortals' lives, betrayed Lolth by prioritizing her love for her marked child over her own bloodthirsty religion, and on dying condemned herself by using her last words to call down a final act of hatred and fury that blasted the land of Arak from the Demiplane of Dread. Consumed by a selfish desire to be loved without end, she is now cursed to be alone and constantly searching for the one thing she knew loved her totally and unconditionally.

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## enderlord99

Okay, but "recursive betrayal" is a pretty common thing for drow.

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## afroakuma

> Okay, but "recursive betrayal" is a pretty common thing for drow.


Sure, except she wasn't a drow, she was a shadow elf.

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## enderlord99

> Sure, except she wasn't a drow, she was a shadow elf.


Oh.

Yeah, that'd do it.

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