# Forum > Comics > Webcomics >  Darths & Droids VI: Thread title will appear here when received

## 137beth

Welcome to the sixth thread discussing Darths and Droids!


The sequel trilogy is now underway.  Please keep spoilers for _Rogue One_, the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy, and other Star Wars media produced by Disney in spoiler boxes.

*Previous Threads:*
Darths and Droids (November 1, 2007 - June 16, 2011)
Darths and Droids 2: Should've Gone to Naboo (June 16, 2011 - September 9, 2012)
Darths and Droids III: Search Your DNA Report (September 9, 2012-June 26, 2015)
Darths and Droids V: Thread IV Was Eaten By Dogs (June 26, 2015-December 25, 2017)
Darths & Droids IV: Not in Numerical Order (December 25 2017-August 28 2021)

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## Rodin

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> checking online there apparently is a novel explanation and it wasn't the force but it was technobabble https://old.reddit.com/r/MawInstalla...n_see/dw72jzc/


*Spoiler*
Show

Which essentially comes down to the writer of the novelization caring more about the technobabble than the movie writers.  The movie writers were some combination of "Didn't know" and "Didn't care" and if it was discussed at all I'm sure the response was that most of the movie-going audience would not have an understanding of interstellar travel distances and wouldn't register the absurdity.  It's not worth writing around something that 90+%  of your audience is not going to notice let alone actively care about.

Heck, I didn't register it at the time and I'm a Sci-Fi nerd.  It's only in retrospect that it's super weird, but it's one of those things you can't unsee once it's been pointed out to you.

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## Taevyr

> Its been however many years of playing, and the DM has finally come up with a scene that Jim cant/wont justify for him. I find this amusing.


To be fair, the GM succesfully distracted him from the really ludicrous part with some "Sweet geophysics". So Pete had to pick up the slack.

Which was my favourite shift, since he went straight for "that's unrealistic" rather than his original "how can I minmax that thing".

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## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Which essentially comes down to the writer of the novelization caring more about the technobabble than the movie writers.  The movie writers were some combination of "Didn't know" and "Didn't care" and if it was discussed at all I'm sure the response was that most of the movie-going audience would not have an understanding of interstellar travel distances and wouldn't register the absurdity.  It's not worth writing around something that 90+%  of your audience is not going to notice let alone actively care about.
> 
> Heck, I didn't register it at the time and I'm a Sci-Fi nerd.  It's only in retrospect that it's super weird, but it's one of those things you can't unsee once it's been pointed out to you.


*Spoiler*
Show

Yeah, and sadly this isn't the only time Start Wars had had novelists care more about providing an explanation. Sometimes this works, like the Episode IV 'space sounds are actually the ship using sound to give you information', but I feel this is closer to *Spoiler*
Show

Clone Palpatine
 than that.

This case is one where it might have been better to respond with 'yes, that is strange' than give an explanation.

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## theangelJean

Okay memnarch, I'll bite:

*Spoiler: Darths and Droids Episode 2043*
Show

"You think the sword is cursed?"

You think that's the laser sword strapped on to Rey's back there?


The stupid thing?  Having watched the movie, and remembering what happens next...

_I don't remember_ if it is, or not.

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## Aeson

> Okay memnarch, I'll bite:
> 
> *Spoiler: Current comic*
> Show
> 
> "You think the sword is cursed?"
> 
> You think that's the laser sword strapped on to Rey's back there?
> 
> ...


*Spoiler*
Show

The laser sword was left with Kanata  in the bar's basement; the object on Rey's back is the blaster that Han gave to Rey between getting off the Falcon and going into the bar.

Kanata will be giving Finn the laser sword in a few scenes.

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## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> The laser sword was left with Kanata  in the bar's basement; the object on Rey's back is the blaster that Han gave to Rey between getting off the Falcon and going into the bar.
> 
> Kanata will be giving Finn the laser sword in a few scenes.


*Spoiler*
Show

Does that mean well get the debut of TR8-R by the end of the year? I wonder how that scene will play out.

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## Aeson

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Does that mean well get the debut of TR8-R by the end of the year? I wonder how that scene will play out.


*Spoiler*
Show

I would expect so since Finn getting the sword and the FO attack on the bar with its associated events are the next few scenes in the film, but I don't have any inside knowledge as to when they'll get to things in the comic; I'm just going off what I remember of the movie.

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## memnarch

Based on an email update I got from DMM while I was working last night, there should be an updated comment in the 24 hours or so. 

And hah! You can't make me open spoiler boxes that easily theangelJean!  :Small Tongue:

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## theangelJean

> Based on an email update I got from DMM while I was working last night, there should be an updated comment in the 24 hours or so. 
> 
> And hah! You can't make me open spoiler boxes that easily theangelJean!


Hah!  And here I was about to go back and note the current comic number, and mark it on the spoiler tag for when keybounce gets here...

(Yes, I'm still going to do that.)

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## Xihirli

I'm gonna disagree. "Destiny" cannot work in a story. Sometimes it doesn't detract that much, but when played straight destiny as a concept can only make a story worse. "You can't fight fate" is a really stupid moral to put into any story because what kind of moral is that? That's not applicable to real life because if we do have fate, we _don't_ have a way to see the future. A world with fate that you can't determine ahead of time is indistinguishable from a world with no fate at all.

Now if fate is an _antagonistic_ force I don't mind that so much, or if there's a subversion where what people _assume_ is fate turns out to be wrong. But if you're going to use destiny to say "the heroes are going to win" then why are you even bothering to use it.

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## Anonymouswizard

> I'm gonna disagree. "Destiny" cannot work in a story. Sometimes it doesn't detract that much, but when played straight destiny as a concept can only make a story worse. "You can't fight fate" is a really stupid moral to put into any story because what kind of moral is that? That's not applicable to real life because if we do have fate, we _don't_ have a way to see the future. A world with fate that you can't determine ahead of time is indistinguishable from a world with no fate at all.
> 
> Now if fate is an _antagonistic_ force I don't mind that so much, or if there's a subversion where what people _assume_ is fate turns out to be wrong. But if you're going to use destiny to say "the heroes are going to win" then why are you even bothering to use it.


I think it's fiber if we're going for something akin to psychohistory but less accurate. Do destiny for larger groups is fine, individual characters I'm mostly agreeing with you. Although when that Destiny is the work of various other characters manipulating the situation, more 'Arthur is destined to become king because Merlin has rigged it', I think it works better.

I also don't see an issue with stories where a character makes small changes within a framework. It can also be useful if said confrontation isn't the point of the story, and instead just an enabling device.

Moving more towards Star Wars, destiny seems to be something the Force decides, and it's really uncertain how much it 'knows'. Let's be honest, Anakin kind of messed up the Bring Balance To The Force thing for twenty-odd years. Might have been nice to have a backup chosen one or two is all I'm saying. I mean, it's a big galaxy and you basically decide who gets to be a space wizard, can't be that hard to pump out two hundred and hide them amongst the population.

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## Ellen

Although it would be incredibly hard to make it work in a game setting, this discussion on prophecies makes me want to do the opposite, a Cassandra thing, where a prophecy has been made, doubted, fulfilled down to the smallest detail, and the characters insist Cassandra just got lucky, anyone could do it, and there is no reason to believe anything else Cassandra says. Even as every bit of Cassandra's latest prophecy comes true, they argue Cassandra's a fake and refuse to act on any info they've been given.

Maybe make part of game play? You get XP every time you act against the prophecy and get penalty points on rolls for actions trying to take advantage of what you've been told?

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## Gez

> Although it would be incredibly hard to make it work in a game setting, this discussion on prophecies makes me want to do the opposite, a Cassandra thing, where a prophecy has been made, doubted, fulfilled down to the smallest detail, and the characters insist Cassandra just got lucky, anyone could do it, and there is no reason to believe anything else Cassandra says. Even as every bit of Cassandra's latest prophecy comes true, they argue Cassandra's a fake and refuse to act on any info they've been given.
> 
> Maybe make part of game play? You get XP every time you act against the prophecy and get penalty points on rolls for actions trying to take advantage of what you've been told?


The main problem would be to devise prophecies that are precise enough to not be dismissed as vague hogwash that can be mapped _a posteriori_ to whatever actually happened through creative interpretation, but that the player cannot thwart easily just by their general tendency to derail everything.

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## 137beth

Okay, hold on: can someone remind me when we previously heard about the "second part of the prophecy?"  I'm pretty sure we heard it before, possibly from Yoda, but I can't recall when.

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## PhantomFox

Going back a few strips, is the DM going to need to call a timeout to have a private chat with Pete about trust, or is it just me?  I feel like there's a line between avoiding railroad tracks/plot hooks/plot points/'path' to pursue character agency for an in-character reason, and avoiding them just because they're there.  It feels like he doesn't trust the path presented to be satisfying.  I mean, it's a very tricky balance.  The players are free to pursue goals however they please, and that should be respected (within reason), but this feels like it is heading beyond balance and towards the opposite extreme where the DM's world building and storytelling efforts are not respected and instead spit upon.  Pete plays like a paranoid players against a killer DM, and there seems to be a mismatch of expectations.  We'll see if this is indeed a thing, and how it gets resolved, or if I'm reading too much into it.

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## b_jonas

PhantomFox: I disagree.  Pete is doing entirely the right thing here.  He's avoiding the obviously cursed laser sword that is clearly layed there as a trap, and tries to take over the mind of anyone who touches it.  And even role-plays it well: his character briefly becomes mad and runs away, rather than just calmly returns the sword as if it had no effect on Rey's mind.  We know that even the DM doesn't expect players to fall into every obvious discoverable trap.

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## memnarch

> PhantomFox: I disagree.  Pete is doing entirely the right thing here.  He's avoiding the obviously cursed laser sword that is clearly layed there as a trap, and tries to take over the mind of anyone who touches it.  And even role-plays it well: his character briefly becomes mad and runs away, rather than just calmly returns the sword as if it had no effect on Rey's mind.  We know that even the DM doesn't expect players to fall into every obvious discoverable trap.


Even if I forget sometimes when commenting and he doesn't make it obvious, Pete really is good at roleplaying.

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## Anonymouswizard

Admittedly it did take Pete time to grow to a point where he cared about role-playing, but he's certainly there now. As is Jim. Annie is possibly the player must likely to be disruptive.

Plus I'm not convinced that the GM didn't expect Pete to not take the laser sword. This is the kind of plot hook that could be followed up on either way, especially as any character that Pete builds is more than likely to be combat capable regardless. Switching from staff to laser sword might actually decrease Rey's effectiveness, she's not invested in it.

Running away however is more likely to have messed up the GM's plans, but he's used to it. We haven't seen him have to burn an NPC backstory in a while.

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## SirKazum

> (...) but this feels like it is heading beyond balance and towards the opposite extreme where the DM's world building and storytelling efforts are not respected and instead spit upon.  (...)


As if that was not what this group is all about.

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## b_jonas

> Switching from staff to laser sword might actually decrease Rey's effectiveness, she's not invested in it.


*Spoiler: Possible Force Awakens spoilers*
Show

It wouldn't.  The reason is that Rey already has a laser sword. Her staff is made of laser sword hilts that she collected while scavenging and repaired.  The Last Jedi didn't confirm this, because it's a disjoint movie with all the setups from The Force Awakens throws away, but it did seem so after The Force Awakens.  You don't expect the staff prop to be designed to look just like it's made of lightsaber hilts in a Star Wars film if Rey wasn't planned to use it after she gets her Jedi training from Luke, do you?  

Rey only agreed to look at a laser sword because the DM decided that Rey left her main weapon on the ship.  Pete never said anything to that effect, and it would be such an uncharacteristic decision for an adventurer that I think it's downright unfair for the DM to assume it.  If the only laser sword that Maz Kanata has to offer is a cursed one, then it's no surprise that Rey isn't interested.  A laser sword could help if a fight breaks out in the bar, but dealing with a cursed laser sword at that point is worse than just using an improvized weapon.  And once they return to the ship, Rey will have her weapon once again.

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## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler: Possible Force Awakens spoilers*
> Show
> 
> It wouldn't.  The reason is that Rey already has a laser sword. Her staff is made of laser sword hilts that she collected while scavenging and repaired.  The Last Jedi didn't confirm this, because it's a disjoint movie with all the setups from The Force Awakens throws away, but it did seem so after The Force Awakens.  You don't expect the staff prop to be designed to look just like it's made of lightsaber hilts in a Star Wars film if Rey wasn't planned to use it after she gets her Jedi training from Luke, do you?  
> 
> Rey only agreed to look at a laser sword because the DM decided that Rey left her main weapon on the ship.  Pete never said anything to that effect, and it would be such an uncharacteristic decision for an adventurer that I think it's downright unfair for the DM to assume it.  If the only laser sword that Maz Kanata has to offer is a cursed one, then it's no surprise that Rey isn't interested.  A laser sword could help if a fight breaks out in the bar, but dealing with a cursed laser sword at that point is worse than just using an improvized weapon.  And once they return to the ship, Rey will have her weapon once again.


*Spoiler: The film*
Show

Her staff being made of ladder sword was not confirmed in any media I confronted. Even then it means nothing more than 'laser swords have hilts that are heavy and solid'. Didn't even notice it. It might have been foreshadowing for Rey building hey own laser sword, but then the cursed series came back.

As a side note, I try to punish players for walking around clearly armed in cities, so I don't see it as that bad if they have a relatively safe place to see their stuff. But that's a quirk of my GMing and paying, you go and grab the big find when you expect combat.

Plus using a laser sword in a bar fight skins like a quick way to get ganged up on.

I honestly expect the thing Pete did that the GM didn't expect is to run away. He might have enough smarts to not pick up the cursed item, but he's running away to no benefit here where there's other ways Rey could react. Almost as if they have to follow the events in stone other piece of media.

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## Kantaki

Chewbacca raises a pretty good point.
But why does he think he'd end up in Wookiee _Heaven_? :Small Tongue:

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## DaFlipp

> Chewbacca raises a pretty good point.
> But why does he think he'd end up in Wookie _Heaven_?


If faithfully working alongside this particular version of Han Solo for all these years and somehow maintaining his sanity doesn't qualify Chewie for some kind of Wookie Sainthood, I can't imagine what would.

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## Metastachydium

> Wookie





> Wookie


(You two are some brave heretics!)

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## Anonymouswizard

Just wait, Peelee will venture into the thread soon to tell you how many es are in Wookieee.

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## Metastachydium

> Wookieee.


Am I really the only person without a death wish hear?

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## Kantaki

> (You two are some brave heretics!)


I have no idea what you're talking about.  :Small Tongue: 
The embarrassing part is that I actually looked at the comicto make sure I got _Chewbacca_ right.  :Small Red Face: 
Totally missed that second e though.  :Small Big Grin:

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## Anonymouswizard

> Am I really the only person without a death wish hear?


I had thee right numbeer of es! I just includeed an eextra to bee safee.

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## Gez

C'm'on, spelling "woookiee" isn't that hard!  :Small Tongue:

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## Kantaki

New comic

What Pete neglects to mention is that the shock probe of overkill was A) connected to the plotonium sphere of endless energy* and B) still foiled by a bit of rubber.
So... I'll take the blaster pleace. Thank you very much.  :Small Big Grin: 


*A.k.a the Lost (and found and lost again) Orb of Phanastacoria, known for powering the Peace Moon's... "pacifying rays".
(What? You  point them at a planet and it turns very pieceful peaceful.)  :Small Amused:

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## SirKazum

Huh. I honestly did not remember Kylo Ren being at Takodana. Come to think of it, reading the comic, I'm realizing I remember way too little of this movie...

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## Metastachydium

My. At this rate, it might soon turn out that Pete, of all people, plays the only actual good guy in this chapter.

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## Xihirli

I don't think Kylo was saying 
"Our agent: Han Solo."
He was listing things.
Our agent; Han Solo; The map. 

"Our agent" being Finn.

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## Anonymouswizard

> My. At this rate, it might soon turn out that Pete, of all people, plays the only actual good guy in this chapter.


To be fair, I think it might legitimately be just him and Corey at the moment. Yanni and Chewbacca are mercenary to a fault, Finn is a First Order loyalist, and Hux and Kylo are pretty highly placed in the organisation. It all friends on if BB-8 goes the way of R2.

*Spoiler: Episode IX*
Show

 Although I wouldn't call Ben a definite bad guy just yet. In the D&D universe Hux might already be a Resistance spy.





> I don't think Kylo was saying 
> "Our agent: Han Solo."
> He was listing things.
> Our agent; Han Solo; The map. 
> 
> "Our agent" being Finn.


I mean, I don't have good enough eyesight to tell. But I think at this point either could work, while the latter is more likely it would fit Yanni to stay be work working for the bad guys.

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## SirKazum

> I don't think Kylo was saying 
> "Our agent: Han Solo."
> He was listing things.
> Our agent; Han Solo; The map. 
> 
> "Our agent" being Finn.


This reading was so obvious to me that I didn't get what the previous comment about Pete being the only good guy was about until you made this correction...

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## Metastachydium

Heh. Yeah, that's a valid reading. Given Jim's track record, though, you must admit I wasn't being unrealistic!

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## SirKazum

Well sure, I wouldn't have trouble believing that for a second. But I guess he simply hasn't had opportunity to sell out the Resistance yet  :Small Tongue:

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## DavidSh

I really wouldn't want to have a name starting with 'Z' with Yanni around.  He seems to be operating with a pattern.  Do we know his full set of identities to this point?

*Spoiler: For the movies*
Show

*Spoiler: Specifically, for "The Force Awakens"*
Show

I suppose that's why Han had to die in this campaign. No more room left in the alphabet.

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## Dire_Flumph

> I really wouldn't want to have a name starting with 'Z' with Yanni around.  He seems to be operating with a pattern.  Do we know his full set of identities to this point?
> 
> *Spoiler: For the movies*
> Show
> 
> *Spoiler: Specifically, for "The Force Awakens"*
> Show
> 
> I suppose that's why Han had to die in this campaign. No more room left in the alphabet.


*Spoiler: For the movies*
Show

*Spoiler: But Rise of Skywalker this time*
Show

Not sure this theory has been advanced, but I'm guessing "Yanni" fakes his death and shows up alive in Episode IX with a Z name

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## Anonymouswizard

*Spoiler: For the movies*
Show

*Spoiler: Episode 7*
Show

*Spoiler: and Ep 9 as well*
Show

I wonder if Kylo Ren is going to turn out to be Rey's half sister. I'm already interested in how they're going to play the two Kylo/Yanni scenes.

Also, why not combine to two series. Yanni takes on a Z name, fakes his death, and turns up in the last campaign having stolen a droid's identity (155AC?).

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## SirKazum

> *Spoiler: For the movies*
> Show
> 
> *Spoiler: But Rise of Skywalker this time*
> Show
> 
> Not sure this theory has been advanced, but I'm guessing "Yanni" fakes his death and shows up alive in Episode IX with a Z name


That's... actually pretty good. Hadn't thought that, but yeah.

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## Xihirli

Is Pete going after Finn for not attacking off-turn? Parry rolls have been made off-turn since episode 1, Finn isn't attacking because Zeppo is attacking; it's Zeppo's turn.

EDIT: Though I suppose it's possible only Jedi can automatically perform parry rolls with their sabers, and non-jedi need to prepare it ahead of time?

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## Kornaki

I think the implication is Finn did have a turn, and used it to take a dodge or defensive action.

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## Anonymouswizard

> Is Pete going after Finn for not attacking off-turn? Parry rolls have been made off-turn since episode 1, Finn isn't attacking because Zeppo is attacking; it's Zeppo's turn.
> 
> EDIT: Though I suppose it's possible only Jedi can automatically perform parry rolls with their sabers, and non-jedi need to prepare it ahead of time?


My guess is that Annie built for ranged combat, and so instead of sucking with a weapon her character is barely proficient in (if at all) she took that rarely used option to sacrifice her attack for a passive defence bonus. Checking GURPS, which I believe it's DMM's standard system, you can do All Out Defense for either a +2 bonus or two different defence rolls. I think the implication is meant to be 'I go defensive for the bonus to parry rolls'.

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## theangelJean

memnarch makes a good point about the latest comic.  Why is Kylo being played by the DM right now?  The DM was talking to Kanata earlier in this session, so that means Sally isn't absent from the session completely, right?  Players being absent is usually lampshaded in the comic as well.

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## Anonymouswizard

> memnarch makes a good point about the latest comic.  Why is Kylo being played by the DM right now?  The DM was talking to Kanata earlier in this session, so that means Sally isn't absent from the session completely, right?  Players being absent is usually lampshaded in the comic as well.


*Spoiler: Films*
Show

Are we sure that in the D&D universe h this isn't another of the Knights of Ren?

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## Kantaki

New comic

Quoting old campaigns is a classic.
Especially if they're as great as this one.  :Small Cool:

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## 137beth

Pete would have been the one to originally say the "inconceivable" line, right?  But then, didn't he ragequit the campaign before Wesley would have said "then again, maybe I have?"  I thought Pete ragequit after the GM gave a character immunity to iocane powder even though there's no rule for it.  Maybe he just heard about that quote from one of the other players?  Or maybe it came up earlier in their campaign.

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## SirKazum

Re: memnarch's last commentary (and I'm pretty sure this isn't a spoiler, it's something that would be clear if you'd looked at the video footage so far): Kylo Ren's saber looks different from all other ones we've seen, not just because of the crossguards, but also because the blade is not a smooth, steady shaft of light, but rather it crackles a little bit, as if it was made of fire or lighting (well, just a little bit, it's mostly an ordinary lightsaber).

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## 137beth

I honestly don't remember this scene in the movie.

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## Kantaki

> I honestly don't remember this scene in the movie.


*Spoiler: The Force Awakens*
Show

It's the scene where Poe shows up again.
I wonder how they'll explain that here.
Actually, how did he make it in the movie? :Small Confused:

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## Metastachydium

> *Spoiler: The Force Awakens*
> Show
> 
> It's the scene where Poe shows up again.
> I wonder how they'll explain that here.
> Actually, how did he make it in the movie?


*Spoiler: Kind of*
Show


Dark science, cloning, secrets only the sith knew?

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## PoeticallyPsyco

> *Spoiler: The Force Awakens*
> Show
> 
> It's the scene where Poe shows up again.
> I wonder how they'll explain that here.
> Actually, how did he make it in the movie?


*Spoiler*
Show

They never explain it, but I assumed that he was still in the TIE fighter when it sunk and escaped later.

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## Kantaki

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> They never explain it, but I assumed that he was still in the TIE fighter when it sunk and escaped later.


*Spoiler*
Show

Didn't the TIE explode?

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## Anonymouswizard

*Spoiler*
Show

Still going for this actually being Wedge.

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## Gez

I'll admit that when NPC mooks die around my table, their last words tend to be a lot less imaginative: "argh", "gasp", "oh no"...

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## Ellen

> I'll admit that when NPC mooks die around my table, their last words tend to be a lot less imaginative: "argh", "gasp", "oh no"...


Remembering the villain's death in a four man play. Everyone was on stage.  The heroes were cornered and weaponless. Suddenly, an uncredited hand appeared from behind a curtain holding a gun. The shot rang out. As the villain slowly died, he gasped out, "I thought . . . this was . . . a four man . . . play."

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## Kornaki

And then the shooter emerged, and she said "I am no man"?

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## theangelJean

I hate spoiler-onlly posts and try not to make them, but...
*Spoiler: The Force Awakens and this thread*
Show

latest commentary (2069): memnarch, please tell me you haven't been reading the spoilers on this page of posts!  I mean, seriously! If you ever come back after the thread and reread, the side-by-side comparison with today's commentary is uncanny...

You know it's meta when I have to put in a spoiler tag, not because this post was referring to anything about the original movie, but because it would give away the spoilers already written in this thread!

But back to the actual comic strip, for all that the Irregulars are working in worldbuilding details to make the inevitable events in the movie make actual sense, they're not making the plot _that_ predictable are they?

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## Anonymouswizard

> I hate spoiler-onlly posts and try not to make them, but...
> *Spoiler: The Force Awakens and this thread*
> Show
> 
> latest commentary (2069): memnarch, please tell me you haven't been reading the spoilers on this page of posts!  I mean, seriously! If you ever come back after the thread and reread, the side-by-side comparison with today's commentary is uncanny...
> 
> You know it's meta when I have to put in a spoiler tag, not because this post was referring to anything about the original movie, but because it would give away the spoilers already written in this thread!
> 
> But back to the actual comic strip, for all that the Irregulars are working in worldbuilding details to make the inevitable events in the movie make actual sense, they're not making the plot _that_ predictable are they?


*Spoiler: Same as above*
Show

Yeah, same things as we've been saying, but probably also the very safe guesses.

Also, we know the rough outline of the plot, and the WIs keep to a relatively small cast of characters to better represent an actual campaign. Out of all the established ace pilot characters Poe and Wedge are pretty much the only ones unaccounted for, and so any attempted guess is going to land on those or suggest it's a new character, which it probably isn't if we assume that Jim's remark suggests he knows who it is.

Of course those of us in spoiler town, having seen the movie, know that in the film it's Poe. So from our point of view it has to be either him, a shapeshifter, somebody incredibly good at disguise, or Poe's evil twin. I remember no insurance of Wedge in the films, so if the WIs want to bring him back this is the most logical place to do it, putting 'Poe somehow survived' and 'Wedge, shapeshifted into the same mini' at the most likely options.

Of course I'm not ruling out the existence of Geoffrey Dameron, actually morally upstanding Resistance pilot.

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## Aeson

*Spoiler*
Show

Wedge makes a brief appearance in The Rise of Skywalker, in the battle over Exegol; I believe he was manning a turret on the Millennium Falcon, or maybe in the background for one of the cockpit shots.

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## theangelJean

You know, I completely missed that the DM and Jim were lampshading the pilot being an important character, rather than just more worldbuilding. I don't know how I took "Zeppo"'s comment at face value - maybe I keep forgetting that this is a game campaign and not, say, the Order of the Stick. memnarch's commentary makes so much more sense now.

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## Ellen

> And then the shooter emerged, and she said "I am no man"?


No, but they should have!

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## Fyraltari

Hi! I had stopped reading this comic back during the puppet show interlude and I'm just now done with binge-reading it/catching up. I find that I liked their treatment of the OT much better the second time around for some reason. I had completely forgotten that Han and Chewie were the traitor Luke was looking for, and I hadn't realized last time that Owen and Beru were still alive. Wonder  how that will matter down the line.

I love how they're doing the ST so far. Finn already has more of an arc than he had in all three movies. Sally and Pete playing Kylo Ren and Rey was a surprise for me, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense.
*Spoiler*
Show

This tells us right off the bat that, despite the movies, there won't be a romance arc between these two characters, and I understand the Comic Irregulars not wanting to do another one after Jim and Annie's took seven movies. Also, Pete palying a woman who was being stalked in the previous campaign feels like commentary on the more... questionable aspects of that relationship.

Sally gets to have fun playing a bad guy, and Rey being played by the king of minmaxers seems like a good-natured way to adress some... criticisms of her character. Never Finds a Good Parking Spot is peak _Darths & Droids_, it's such a small detail I had never noticed but it's entirely true! She always lands her vehicles some distance away from where she's going!

 Ben playing Hux is certainly something else, too.

Also, it's funny to me, that one of the more recent strips (2000) references a _The Clone Wars_ episode I have only recently watched. 

Finally, anybody else hoping Zeppo runs into a guy named "Aaron" at some point?




> *Spoiler: Possible Force Awakens spoilers*
> Show
> 
> It wouldn't.  The reason is that Rey already has a laser sword. Her staff is made of laser sword hilts that she collected while scavenging and repaired.


*Spoiler*
Show

Is it? That's the first time I hear aboit that. Looking at it, only the ends looks loke they could be lightsabers and there doesn't seem to have been any welding done anywhere on the staff. Seems more likely it was just one metal beam she scavenged. That reminds me of the time when (some) people insisted Daisy Ridley looked liked Carrie Fisher and they wouldn't have made that casting choice if she wasn't playing her daughter.




> *Spoiler: Episode IX*
> Show
> 
>  Although I wouldn't call Ben a definite bad guy just yet. In the D&D universe Hux might already be a Resistance spy.


*Spoiler*
Show

I don't know if that scene had happened yet when you wrote this, but I'd say that Hix ordering the destruction of the Hosnian System Chandrila makes this very unlikely. While Hux having always been a Resistance spy would have been a good choice for the character (certainly better than what actually happened), I feel they would have had Kylo Ren or Phasma order the firing instead then, like they did with Tàrkin and Vader. Besides, Hux has so little interaction with the Resistance in IX, it won't be hard to rework those scenes to mean something else.






> *Spoiler: The Force Awakens*
> Show
> 
> It's the scene where Poe shows up again.
> I wonder how they'll explain that here.
> Actually, how did he make it in the movie?


*Spoiler*
Show

They didn't. Maybe there was a throwaway line like "I'll tell you about it some day", but they 'ever actually explained it. Rumor has it Poe was meant to die there, but Oscar Isaac was so darn likeable, Abrams kept his character around.




> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> They never explain it, but I assumed that he was still in the TIE fighter when it sunk and escaped later.


*Spoiler*
Show

If that were the case Finn would have seen him when grabbing the jacket.




> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Still going for this actually being Wedge.


*Spoiler*
Show

I doubt it. For one Wedge and Poe are both in the final battle (though I wouldn't put it past the CI to have another shapeshifter looking just like Wedge show up). For two, the mental coercion stuff isn't resolved yet. I suspect it'll play a bigger role in VIII.

----------


## PhantomFox

One of your spoiler tags is broken

----------


## Fyraltari

> One of your spoiler tags is broken


I fixed it, thanks.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

So the question Princess Leia is asking is whereas Wally?

----------


## theangelJean

memnarch, nice linking to the one who called it in! And yes, I'm guessing it's the robot: he uses the phrase "good buddy" in a few of the links you posted there.

I remember (and my memory is very vague) the movie dialogue being _extremely_ different in style here from the comic dialogue, but with a similarly exasperated tone. But for context, let's just say the movie didn't do _any_ of the worldbuilding that the Irregulars have done with the comic, and unlike the comic format there wasn't the foreshadowing that you can get over a months-long (for just this movie) series, so 

A lot of the setup to this strip is comic-original.  The movie doesn't have the precisely the same buildup, so this scene had an emotional impact all of its own.

(I think that's safe enough to say without spoilers?  I don't think there are any hidden clues there.)

*Spoiler: ongoing speculation*
Show

Now I have to go back and see if Poe uses the phrase "good buddy".  And if he does later on ... 


(edited to summarise)

Editing again to avoid double posting: hellooo? Anybody here? Just me and memnarch? And here I am trying to avoid spoiling the new comics by being as vague as possible.

New comic: new clue to Corey's campaign. Which I don't know anything about, so I don't know if it's a big clue that narrows it right down, or if it just gives us a franchise to work with.

----------


## Fyraltari

Regarding memnarch's commentary, planets with their own asteroid belts aren't that improbable, given that Saturn exists.

----------


## SirKazum

> Regarding memnarch's commentary, planets with their own asteroid belts aren't that improbable, given that Saturn exists.


I guess the real takeaway is that real-life asteroid belts are a far cry from what's usually portrayed in Star Wars and other media; they look pretty boring to the naked eye, you're going to travel for a pretty long time from one asteroid to the next. After all, something as densely packed as the one in Empire Strikes Back, say, would last only for an extremely short time (in astronomical terms) before all the crashing turned everything into dust.

----------


## Gez

> New comic: new clue to Corey's campaign. Which I don't know anything about, so I don't know if it's a big clue that narrows it right down, or if it just gives us a franchise to work with.


Well we know it's about Voltron, a franchise I know very little about as I've never watched any of it, but after looking up "captured zaiforge cannons" based on what was said in 2077, it apparently correspond to the plot of episodes from 2017 of the Netflix series.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

*Spoiler: The Movies*
Show

Well I guess I owe everybody a fiver, and there goes my 'Jim plays Holdo' theory.

The only question now is, is Allan the good twin or the evil twin? Well he's played by Jim, so probably the Chaotic Neutral twin.

----------


## Metastachydium

> *Spoiler: The Movies*
> Show
> 
> 
> The only question now is, is Allan the good twin or the evil twin? Well he's played by Jim, so probably the Chaotic Neutral twin.


*Spoiler*
Show

We may still see all three of those! Edgar Dameron is yet to make an appearance!

----------


## SirKazum

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> We may still see all three of those! Edgar Dameron is yet to make an appearance!


*Spoiler*
Show

Was going to comment on the third twin named Edgar, seems you beat me to the punch  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Metastachydium

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Was going to comment on the third twin named Edgar, seems you beat me to the punch


Heh. I _knew_ I wasn't the only one who noticed!

----------


## Gez

Yeah, they really should have gone with triplets rather than twins.

----------


## 137beth

*Spoiler: Episode VII*
Show

I agree with the commentary on Poe's return.  But then, I couldn't stand the film version of Poe.

----------


## Kornaki

> Yeah, they really should have gone with triplets rather than twins.


Edgar could be a younger brother.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Yep. Definitely one of Jim's characters.  :Small Big Grin: 
I think he might be reaching new heights with this one.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I'm really not sure if I should spoiler this or not. Fro the new comic:

*Spoiler*
Show

Who else is getting the impression that this is Poe, having somehow escaped from Tatooine, pretending to be his twin brother so the Resistance doesn't suspect him?

Although this is Jim, Allan just being like this is entirely believable.

----------


## SirKazum

> I'm really not sure if I should spoiler this or not. Fro the new comic:
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Who else is getting the impression that this is Poe, having somehow escaped from Tatooine, pretending to be his twin brother so the Resistance doesn't suspect him?


*Spoiler*
Show

The "you can trust me" thing does seem to suggest that. But yeah, being Jim, I'd say it's a crapshoot.

----------


## Ellen

*Spoiler*
Show

My guess is that Po is pretending to be his twin. Unless he turns out to be Wedge (or Wedge Jr) pretending to be Po pretending to be his twin to find out if Finn is a twin spy.

Anyone want to bet that Kylo Ren has a twin named Ben?

----------


## theangelJean

Allan refers to Poe being "brainwashed to be a double agent". Is there anyone who could plausibly be present who would know this? Finn wasn't there and I don't remember him being told about it, and it doesn't _look_ like they discussed their backstories...

----------


## DavidSh

Of course, Allan's _player_ knows about it.  Otherwise, it could be just something that the First Order is known to try to do to their captives

----------


## Fyraltari

> Allan refers to Poe being "brainwashed to be a double agent". Is there anyone who could plausibly be present who would know this? Finn wasn't there and I don't remember him being told about it, and it doesn't _look_ like they discussed their backstories...


Nope. Either this is Jim's mouth running again, or this is actually deliberately trying to rouse suspicions while pretending to be his own heretofore unknown twin in some kind of crazy plan to defeat the mind control while adhering to the letter of it.

If this is the case, then Jim is the perfect man to come up with a plan where the various steps all undermine each other.

----------


## SirKazum

> If this is the case, then Jim is the perfect man to come up with a plan where the various steps all undermine each other.


At times like these, I wish there was a Darths and Droids treatment of the Indiana Jones movies (as in, with the same players) just to see Jim playing Indy. Because of course that would be him.

----------


## Kantaki

*Spoiler: Sequel Trilogy* 
Show

Lots of mystery, little answers? Sounds like the movies, yes.  :Small Amused: 


*Spoiler: memnarch, 3PO's red arm*
Show

I don't think it was even mentioned. 
And didn't he have a gold one again at the end?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler: Sequel Trilogy* 
> Show
> 
> Lots of mystery, little answers? Sounds like the movies, yes.


*Spoiler: ST*
Show

Yep.





> *Spoiler: memnarch, 3PO's red arm*
> Show
> 
> I don't think it was even mentioned. 
> And didn't he have a gold one again at the end?


*Spoiler*
Show

I think Han brings it up and it's kind of brushed off.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I wonder if that ever gets a mention in the movies or if it's a "read the tie-in comics to find out!" sort of thing.


Yes. C-3PO says "it's me C-3PO, I thought you might not recognize me because of the red arm." And then it's never brought up again in all three movies.

It's explained in some comic, because _somebody_ has to clean after Abrams, I guess, and it wasn't going to be Johnson.

Here's hoping the Comic Irregulars do something with it.

Also, his leg is no longer silver and nobody comments on it, nor is it (to my knowledge) explained.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I am ashamed to admit that it was reading Darths & Droids that made me realise he had a silver leg.

Also, I think that it's likely just her making a fashion statement or something. This is Sally after all, Pete would have bought a flame resistant arm with backup processor and memory banks.

----------


## ByzantiumBhuka

Not sure if this has been theorized, but...
*Spoiler: Sequels*
Show

Maybe Luke is in a different galaxy, and the weird new hyperdrive is needed to get there? That would suggest that R2-D2 is holding the information on which galaxy it's in, and it would explain the lack of Galactic coordinates.

----------


## 137beth

Who's this Darth Kanata person?  Do we know anything about him?

----------


## Fyraltari

> Who's this Darth Kanata person?  Do we know anything about him?


First appearance of Darth Kanata.

Edit: Also, I love that the Comics Irregular decided that the character played by Carrie Fisher's daughter is resentful of Leia/Princess's daugher and wishes she was in her place.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Right. This moment.

*Spoiler: Kylo Ren*
Show

The sad part is, it's only downhill from there on.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> New comic
> 
> Right. This moment.
> 
> *Spoiler: Kylo Ren*
> Show
> 
> The sad part is, it's only downhill from there on.


*Spoiler*
Show

At least we know that he's not the child of Leia and Zeppo.

Well, in the 'raised by them' sense at least.

Considering that two comics ago we discovered that there's something Rey doesn't know about herself, it's possible that canon biological relationships are in effect. If they are it'll be interesting, if they aren't what the WIs come up with will be interesting.


Oh, and I've been thinking.

*Spoiler: TRoS*
Show

Force Lightning in the films has consistently been Force Drain in the comic. While that kind of makes the ending of the film make more sense I wonder how they'll explain the exploding shuttle.

----------


## Kantaki

> Oh, and I've been thinking.
> 
> *Spoiler: TRoS*
> Show
> 
> Force Lightning in the films has consistently been Force Drain in the comic. While that kind of makes the ending of the film make more sense I wonder how they'll explain the exploding shuttle.


*Spoiler*
Show

Inverted Force drain? 
The drain destabilises the shuttles system causing some fuses to blow?
The pilot confuses the self-destruct and the coffee maker buttons?

----------


## SirKazum

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Inverted Force drain? 
> The drain destabilises the shuttles system causing some fuses to blow?
> The pilot confuses the self-destruct and the coffee maker buttons?


*Spoiler*
Show

The last one _definitely_ sounds like something they'd use...

----------


## Anonymouswizard

*Spoiler*
Show

Yeah, it'll probably be along the lines of 'the big red button is the self destruct. The bigger red button is for coffee'. Not sure why I even wondered.

----------


## Xihirli

Any significance in star wars lore to the name *Spoiler: should this even be spoilered* 
Show

"Nabidalo?"

It kinda sounds like Amidala. Is it like a Nabooan name?

----------


## Aeson

> Any significance in star wars lore to the name *Spoiler: should this even be spoilered* 
> Show
> 
> "Nabidalo?"
> 
> It kinda sounds like Amidala. Is it like a Nabooan name?


As far as I am aware, "Nabidalo" is not a name from any official Star Wars work, whether new or old canon.

Also, I don't see any real reason to spoiler this; it's just a name and two short sentences of speculation, not some major plot point from the movies or a wall of speculative text.

----------


## Gez

For whatever it's worth, a web search for "nabidalo" gave me what appears to be an Indonesian (specifically, Bauzi language I think) translation of biblical texts. But that's presumably just a coincidence.

----------


## b_jonas

That name is not newly revealed though, Kylo Ren already said it in #1876.

----------


## Gez

You know, "Kylo" does sound like the kind of names that Alberto Freddo Greedo Han Romeo Waldo Xasha Yanni Zeppo would have usurped at some point.

----------


## SirKazum

RE: memnarch's commentary in today's strip, listing all the identities... I seem to vaguely recall Han stealing the identity of some Igor, or at least planning to, back in either ESB or ROTJ. Anyone remember that?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> RE: memnarch's commentary in today's strip, listing all the identities... I seem to vaguely recall Han stealing the identity of some Igor, or at least planning to, back in either ESB or ROTJ. Anyone remember that?


When they arrived at Cloud City, Han suggested that he and Chewie should introduce themselves as Iago and Jafar respectively, but nothing came of it. I don't think it counts as one of the identities.

----------


## Fyraltari

"insignificant backwater planet is Tatooine? [...] Wouldn't be the first time the comic has renamed a planet."

Hahahahah!

So, it seems like Kylo Ren's father had a name beginning in K. Kylo I?

Also, does anyone knows what is up with Keybounce's and aurilee's comments?

----------


## dmmaus

> Also, does anyone knows what is up with Keybounce's and aurilee's comments?


Keybounce has been dealing with some personal issues. I'm not sure if he's going to resume commentaries or not.

Aurilee was a commenter for _Rogue One_, but is not doing the sequels.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Keybounce has been dealing with some personal issues. I'm not sure if he's going to resume commentaries or not.
> 
> Aurilee was a commenter for _Rogue One_, but is not doing the sequels.


...

Okay, I don't know why, but for some reason, I was convinced Keybounce had stopped writing commentaries at the same time as Aurilee.

Might have something to do with me bumping my head earlier this evening.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Also, does anyone knows what is up with Keybounce's and aurilee's comments?


Clearly Zeppo killed him and stole his identity!

Or, possibly, the more accurate information DMM has.

----------


## Ibrinar

I opened the link to their generator.




> Lesser Faulconburney
> Every year on Midsummers Day, the village hosts the bardic scythe jamboree. The best twelve competitors (as judged by the previous years winner) are married to the village captains parents


I can only conclude that the parents just want a harem of people who don't bother to check the prices first.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I opened the link to their generator.





> Wimbush Chatbank
> For the past 329 years, venue of the worlds richest harvest umbrella tradition. *The prize is a lifetime supply of menhirs.*


Good to know Obélix is still in business after 329 years.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I got one I'm fairly certain is a real thing somewhere.




> Salisburgh
> Roman New Year is when the villages chimneysweeps compete against those of Langreagh Byville in the roast dinner punching feast.


Although I was confused by the idea of May Day Pantomime in another one. That's like six months out of season for Panto. Cue traditional panto routine.

----------


## Gez

Here's what I got:
*Spoiler*
Show

Princebosthorn
Each Shrove Tuesday, the village drovers assemble for the ancient roast dinner fair.

Guildstone (pop. 28)
Along with Rosesstanes, the village shares hosting of the worlds most prestigious winter umbrella punching gala.

Wellboroughshire
Each Pentecost, the village sergeants assemble for the regions hat crafting spectacle. The wearer of the best costume is banished from the village for a year and a day.

Eaglescott
Hocktide is when the villages guardsmen compete against those of Upper Dalrith in the greased pole scrimmaging feast day. Each year, 805 snowmen are hurled at the village plumber.

Prestlaw Haven
Every year on Lughnasadh, the village hosts the biennial maypole growing festival. A random onlooker is dunked in the local stream.

Bury St Gemmas
Home of the worlds oldest Lunar New Year greased turtle washing cavalcade.

Oakmorespring
Home of the worlds richest harvest telephone box knitting races. The losers are declared to be starfish-infested hedge-wizards.

Princekeld on Derwentside
Home of the regions Yule roast dinner badgering carnival. The prize is a lifetime supply of greased pigs.

Langwich
Each Imbolc, the village drummers assemble for the famous caber leaping jamboree. The best twelve competitors fry the worst performers jig.

Rambost Head
People from as far away as Wrexwold (the one near Stockhurst Mountain Ranges , not the one near Wextarn) gather here on All Souls Day for the worlds richest steam engine stacking fair. The prize is a lifetime supply of peat bogs.


And I have questions. Does any of the village sergeants at Wellboroughshire even attempt to wear a good costume? Is there even still a plumber at Eaglescott? How do you grow a maypole, and how is it a biennial event if it happens each year? What exactly is a harvest telephone box knitting race?  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## The Glyphstone

> Hastfoss (the one near Sud-over-Cove , not the one near Liverglen-over-Stour)
> Home of the lunar the last Monday in February steam engine eisteddfod.


I think the generator broke down for me. Unless 'eissteddfod' is Welsh or something.

----------


## DavidSh

> I think the generator broke down for me. Unless 'eissteddfod' is Welsh or something.


Naturally, "eisteddfod" is a Welsh competitive festival of music and poetry, according to Google.

The ones I get are all in English, as, for example:

Weycardine-under-Arden
Hocktide is when the villages vagabonds compete against those of Lower Tunreagh in the famous full English breakfast carving gala. Each year, 695 nephews are gifted to the elderly.

I suppose that is one way of arranging eldercare.

----------


## Kantaki

Just for fun what the RVG got me:

*Spoiler: Random Village Generator*
Show

  Knocksmith
Every year on Lammas, the village hosts the famous umbrella miming gala. The prize is a lifetime supply of fish and chips.

Great Trestone Ford
Along with Royal Cherrybourne Underdale, the village shares hosting of the druidic summer pork pie jellying concert. Each year, 505 turnips are sold to the neighbouring village.

Garholm-by-the-Beck
Every year on Good Friday, the village hosts the grand cheese ringing fair. The best five competitors are declared the most insulting of them all.

Mersey-over-Cott Heath
Each Lupercalia, the village lacemakers assemble for the national cottage twirling parade.

Hazelquith (the one near Cheltenswold , not the one near Wellstaple-by-the-Spey)
Home of the local Easter egg having pantomime.

Presthurst
Every year on Hocktide, the village hosts the annual Chelsea bun stuffing circus.

Salissley
Mothering Sunday is when the villages harlots compete against those of Rotherholm Fallyn in the snowman tossing competition.

Sudhope (pop. 79)
Home of the national Roman New Year whisky debating carnival.

Trowdarroch
For the past 336 years, venue of the unique autumnal equinox caber poetry picnic.

Dartsstow Forest
Guy Fawkes Day is when the villages glovers compete against those of Trecombe Farmyard in the greased pole snorkeling regatta. The winner is garlanded with crocuses.

----------


## Dewin Dwl

> I think the generator broke down for me. Unless 'eissteddfod' is Welsh or something.





> Naturally, "eisteddfod" is a Welsh competitive festival of music and poetry, according to Google.


Yeup. Originally competitions held in medieval Welsh rulers' courts, with the victorious bard getting a seat at the court. (The word "eistedd" means "to sit".)

Revived in the modern era around two hundred years ago, there are two national eisteddfods encompassing the whole of Wales (one is youth-oriented) which relocate around the country, and an " international" eisteddfod held in Llangollen each year, which invites musicians and dancers from around the world. There are also numerous local and regional eisteddfods, centered on a county, town, or even village. Eisteddfods have also been held overseas by ex-patriots and their descendants (e.g. the USA, Patagonia), and in other celtic nations such as Cornwall.

At a guess, I think the Irregulars may have been exposed to the term by the Association of Eisteddfod Societies of Australia.

----------


## The Glyphstone

I still think the generator glitched from the grammar, or lack thereof. Unless that whole sentence makes sense in Welch.

Not that playing music and poetry on steam engines wouldn't be awesome

----------


## theangelJean

> I think the generator broke down for me. Unless 'eissteddfod' is Welsh or something.


Okay, is that not a thing elsewhere? At least in Australia, we've adopted/appropriated the name Eisteddfod for our local and regional music and poetry competitions (usually kids by age group).

----------


## The Glyphstone

I'd never heard of it before, and the Welsch comment was half a joke and half a shot in the dark. It was mostly the utter word salad that the entire sentence consisted of that made me think the generator had broken and spat out a gibberish word.

----------


## dmmaus

> Okay, is that not a thing elsewhere? At least in Australia, we've adopted/appropriated the name Eisteddfod for our local and regional music and poetry competitions (usually kids by age group).


Yeah, what theangelJean said. Everyone in Australia knows what an eisteddfod is. Everyone's kids perform in them.

Having said that, I can understand if other English-speaking countries don't have the same tradition and are unfamiliar with the word.

----------


## theangelJean

> I'd never heard of it before, and the Welsch comment was half a joke and half a shot in the dark. It was mostly the utter word salad that the entire sentence consisted of that made me think the generator had broken and spat out a gibberish word.


Whoops, looks like I read the comment and didn't read the generated text closely enough. Yeah, the date specification isn't quite grammatical, with the extraneous "the", and doesn't make sense anyway - there isn't a February in any lunar calendar. Other than the date, the same grammar makes more sense for other people's results but it's a stretch for this one.

----------


## SirKazum

I... don't really follow. What's Pete's logic there? (latest comic, 2098)

----------


## theangelJean

> I... don't really follow. What's Pete's logic there? (latest comic, 2098)


Not sure how long that comic has been up, so

*Spoiler: comic 2098*
Show

They've just received a transmission from a planet that was supposed to have been destroyed (just now). R2D2 asks about a particular place, and finds that while there is nothing in the "current" records, there was something there - a system with five planets. I'm guessing it has something to do with the map that doesn't match anything in "current" records.


By the way, do we use this spoiler convention (new comic, 24h) in this thread? Do we want to? I'm doing it to be polite, but there are enough spoiler boxes in the thread already.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Spoiler*
Show

I think Pete suspects that the planets they saw explode were actually destroyed 45 to 52 years ago (the time the light from the destruction took to reach Takodana) which faked the destruction of Chandrila?

----------


## b_jonas

> By the way, do we use this spoiler convention (new comic, 24h) in this thread? Do we want to? I'm doing it to be polite, but there are enough spoiler boxes in the thread already.


No.  The spoilers are to hide anything that you only know because you saw the movies (any of Force awakens, Last Jedi, Rise of Skywalker, Solo).  Keybounce and memnarch are doing a challenge where they deliberately don't watch the movies until like six years after that, and experience the sequels from the comics first.  They sometimes post here and read this thread, so the spoilers are to hide the info from them.

----------


## theangelJean

> No.  The spoilers are to hide anything that you only know because you saw the movies (any of Force awakens, Last Jedi, Rise of Skywalker, Solo).  Keybounce and memnarch are doing a challenge where they deliberately don't watch the movies until like six years after that, and experience the sequels from the comics first.  They sometimes post here and read this thread, so the spoilers are to hide the info from them.


I know about that reason for using spoilers, which is the majority of spoiler boxes here (and which I try to avoid doing). I'm asking if we also use the "don't spoil the current comic" convention that I've seen in other threads. Particularly when I'm basically explaining the plot of the current comic, as I see it, to people who might not have read it.

----------


## SirKazum

I don't believe there is a comics-spoiler policy in place in this thread, or at least I haven't seen one in practice. I often realize a new comic is up (for some reason the RSS feed I follow is a few hours late apparently) because of the discussion here. But hey, keeping it up here just in case.




> *Spoiler: comic 2098*
> Show
> 
> They've just received a transmission from a planet that was supposed to have been destroyed (just now). R2D2 asks about a particular place, and finds that while there is nothing in the "current" records, there was something there - a system with five planets. I'm guessing it has something to do with the map that doesn't match anything in "current" records.


*Spoiler: still comic 2098*
Show

I got that... I just didn't understand what did a planet equidistant from Takodana and Endor (i.e. Starkiller Base) at the specified distance had to do with anything, or why Pete was interested in that distance range. Fyraltari's theory does seem to explain the parameters of Pete's search, but I still don't see what that's got to do with finding Ach-To/Luke, which is what R2-D2 was up to just then.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

To be fair, this thread doesn't get posts for every new comic, discussions aren't lasting for days, and Darths & Droids is one of the webcomics which does stick to it's regular update schedule without regular hiatuses. If this thread was more active I'd support using spoiler tags for new strips, but I'm not sure it's really required at the moment.

----------


## theangelJean

Okay, I went back and checked ... There's no actual confirmation that Chandrila was destroyed. Instead: 
General Hux declares that the target is Chandrila. 
Five planets in the one system are destroyed. 
And Pete says the physics doesn't make sense. 

I'm guessing that that the Peace Moon doesn't work the way they think it does...

----------


## Gez

I think the point was to find how far back to go before finding a version of the star charts that wasn't Nute-ered? Also a way to retcon the silliness of the FTL lightshow.

----------


## b_jonas

> Okay, I went back and checked ... There's no actual confirmation that Chandrila was destroyed.


I see it the opposite way.  There's no confirmation that Chandrilla is _not_ destroyed.  Corey is jumping to a conclusion here instead of listening to the NPC who's bringing an important message.  The message will confirm that Chandrilla is destroyed, and hopefully tell about a few survivors who happened to be on a spaceship or hyperspace or other safe hideouts or got quickly evacuated when the planet got destroyed.

Also Kylo Ren is pretty definitive in #2065, saying Didnt you hear? Chandrila is destroyed. The Republic is no more.

----------


## The Glyphstone

I am curious to see how the GM improves on the canon's technobabble explanation.

----------


## Ibrinar

Huh instant long range attack does imply backwards time travel but seeing as SW also has ftl travel everyone uses I would assume the setting ignores that because it can get messy otherwise.

----------


## theangelJean

Pete's using what I assume is out-of-character knowledge here, which is unusual for him at this point in the campaign. There's nobody present in this discussion who could have had any communication with the people in the scene with Nute that memnarch linked, is there?

----------


## 137beth

I'm glad memnarch linked to the previous relevant page because I had also forgotton about it.

----------


## Morquard

I'm reading and re-reading this and I go "Wha?" ... can someone try to explain to me what happened?

----------


## Mando Knight

> Pete's using what I assume is out-of-character knowledge here, which is unusual for him at this point in the campaign. There's nobody present in this discussion who could have had any communication with the people in the scene with Nute that memnarch linked, is there?


It could be an OOC conversation.

Alternatively, R2 is the one who had the Nute virus, and the destruction of Cardota and Courtsilius pre-date that incident.



> I'm reading and re-reading this and I go "Wha?" ... can someone try to explain to me what happened?


Pete is positing that the Peace Moon is essentially a temporal super-weapon, firing a death ray that travels backwards in time (that doesn't really track with the description of the weapon *firing*, but whatever) so that the interstellar lightshow you see is just normal light that arrived normally, of a system exploding decades ago due to a weapon you just fired right now.

Takodana and the Peace Moon being equidistant from the Hosnian system means that the light from the explosion arrived at both systems at the same time.

----------


## Morquard

> Pete is positing that the Peace Moon is essentially a temporal super-weapon, firing a death ray that travels backwards in time (that doesn't really track with the description of the weapon *firing*, but whatever) so that the interstellar lightshow you see is just normal light that arrived normally, of a system exploding decades ago due to a weapon you just fired right now.
> 
> Takodana and the Peace Moon being equidistant from the Hosnian system means that the light from the explosion arrived at both systems at the same time.


Oh I think I get it now. Since Hosnian has been "mysteriously" destroyed 50 years ago, they didn't take it into account when aiming, but it was their shot that destroyed it in the first place.

----------


## Fyraltari

Pete's logic has some big leaps to it, though. First, the notion that a shot would be limited to lightspeed when FTL is a thing, hell the thing that started this line of thought was receiving an FTL message. Second, even if the beam does travel back through time, he assumed it did so at a one-to-one rate for no real reason. And finally he's using out-of-character knowledge.

I really don't see how the GM could have expected them to figure that out, _when time travel had never even be a part of the setting beforehand_!

----------


## theangelJean

> Pete's logic has some big leaps to it, though. First, the notion that a shot would be limited to lightspeed when FTL is a thing, hell the thing that started this line of thought was receiving an FTL message. Second, even if the beam does travel back through time, he assumed it did so at a one-to-one rate for no real reason. And finally he's using out-of-character knowledge.
> 
> I really don't see how the GM could have expected them to figure that out, _when time travel had never even be a part of the setting beforehand_!


I don't think Pete has the originally-planned explanation.

Whether or not the GM goes with it is another question.

----------


## b_jonas

> Second, even if the beam does travel back through time, he assumed it did so at a one-to-one rate for no real reason.


Pete knows that because the entire Cataclysm beam was visible in the sky at once when viewed from close to the Peace Moon Takodana (where the beam was fired from) in #2038 and #2039.  This may be out of character knowledge, because his character Rey was in Chandrilla at the time, but we don't know where R2-D2 was or what information he has.

----------


## DavidSh

Now with the reference to space bees, I wonder whether _Quark_ existed in this setting, or whether that was too dependent on _Star Wars_.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Pete's logic has some big leaps to it, though. First, the notion that a shot would be limited to lightspeed when FTL is a thing, hell the thing that started this line of thought was receiving an FTL message. Second, even if the beam does travel back through time, he assumed it did so at a one-to-one rate for no real reason. And finally he's using out-of-character knowledge.
> 
> I really don't see how the GM could have expected them to figure that out, _when time travel had never even be a part of the setting beforehand_!


My best guess with this is that, aside from the general ludicrousness of the ultra-laser,
*Spoiler: Episode IX spoilers*
Show

It's an attempt to set up SOMETHING so Palpatine's return can have some level of coherence. Likely with whatever mechanism is enabling time-things getting destroyed in the process, so it gets mostly ruled out.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

*Spoiler: Episode IX*
Show

You're sure that's not actually Nute remote operating a Palpatine clone?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> *Spoiler: Episode IX*
> Show
> 
> You're sure that's not actually Nute remote operating a Palpatine clone?


*Spoiler: Episode IX*
Show

Given what they've done with Nute and with Anakin, and how much material there is between now and the reveal that Palpatine is back, I think all bets are off as to who or what Palpatine actually is.

----------


## Taevyr

> *Spoiler: Episode IX*
> Show
> 
> Given what they've done with Nute and with Anakin, and how much material there is between now and the reveal that Palpatine is back, I think all bets are off as to who or what Palpatine actually is.


*Spoiler: Episode IX*
Show

I honestly hope they'll initially play the "somehow, Palpatine returned" scene straight, with an NPC uttering the infamous line, only for the players to spend the next several strips tearing the DM a new one over it before starting to list increasingly ludicrous ways he could've lived.

Come to think of it, was that mcguffin that helped Padmé live actually destroyed or kept by anyone? Could be one possible way.

----------


## Kornaki

> Pete knows that because the entire Cataclysm beam was visible in the sky at once when viewed from close to the Peace Moon Takodana (where the beam was fired from) in #2038 and #2039.  This may be out of character knowledge, because his character Rey was in Chandrilla at the time, but we don't know where R2-D2 was or what information he has.


I feel like the starting premise is bad here, you can't actually see a beam of light that bypasses you. Whatever it is, it ain't light that you're seeing cut through space.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> *Spoiler: Episode IX*
> Show
> 
> Come to think of it, was that mcguffin that helped Padmé live actually destroyed or kept by anyone? Could be one possible way.


*Spoiler: Episode IX*
Show

The jappor snippet was incorporated into Vader's helmet - so maybe Kylo Ren has it?

----------


## Rodin

> I feel like the starting premise is bad here, you can't actually see a beam of light that bypasses you. Whatever it is, it ain't light that you're seeing cut through space.


They aren't seeing a beam of light that passes them by - they're seeing beams of light emitted by the massive energy beam fired by the Peace Moon.  Which is consistent with the explanation - even if the Peace Moon fired something through hyperspace somehow, you wouldn't be able to see it unless the light it emits _also_ travels through hyperspace for some reason.

Hence, the only explanation is that the light is normal light which travelled the normal way, and the source of the light traveled back in time 50 years to make it so you can see it.

Improbable, but still makes more sense than "the light got to you in real time because it's some sort of super-light that traveled across 50-light years in a second and is an incidental byproduct of this superweapon that was designed to destroy stuff instead of making super-light"

----------


## Fyraltari

So, Galen did deliver on what he was asked. You just have to aim it differently than usual.

The Powerpoint stuff is still a terrible crime, obviously.

----------


## SirKazum

> Improbable, but still makes more sense than "the light got to you in real time because it's some sort of super-light that traveled across 50-light years in a second and is an incidental byproduct of this superweapon that was designed to destroy stuff instead of making super-light"


Or "we forgot that light has a speed and does not propagate instantaneously and also the beam travels across space almost instantly because we have no notion of the scales involved in interplanetary travel" which is probably what it was in the movie  :Small Tongue:

----------


## theangelJean

> So, Galen did deliver on what he was asked. You just have to aim it differently than usual.
> 
> The Powerpoint stuff is still a terrible crime, obviously.


How, exactly, would you aim a weapon like that? You'd need to cross-reference historical records going back at least to the time it would (negatively) take for your beam to reach your intended target. And if there's something in the way, you'd have to move it and recalculate.

Then again they have hyperspace travel.

----------


## Fyraltari

> How, exactly, would you aim a weapon like that? You'd need to cross-reference historical records going back at least to the time it would (negatively) take for your beam to reach your intended target. And if there's something in the way, you'd have to move it and recalculate.
> 
> Then again they have hyperspace travel.


You look where you target is now and at what speed it's moving, you plan out its trajectory, you calculate how long it would take for your beam to reach any point on that trajectory and you fire at the place where the two match. Just loke how you'd aim a normal weapon, but in reverse.

Space is basically just empty stuff with tiny objects floating around separated by huge stretches of nothing. The chance of you accidentally hitting something unintended are (quite literally) astronomically low.

----------


## Gez

Star Wars never really had a clear idea of what "light" is exactly. I mean, they seem to think you can make sabers out of the stuff!  :Small Tongue: 


The whole thing about the Hosnian system exploding in the Takodana night sky is absurd. Even if you use time travel to justify that the photons from the explosions are visible instantaneously 50 LY away, given the distance, it shouldn't be that large in the sky. Just a small point.

Here's an example. The outermost planet in our Solar system, Neptune, has a major axis (largest diameter) of 60 au. 50 light years is 3162050 au. So if you are 50 light years away from Sol, and looking right at it, all the planets that orbit around our Sun will be in a cosmic cone that originates from your eye, is over three million astronomic units long, and 60 au side at its end. To find out the angle of this cone, you use the arctangent of (60 / 3162050), and long story short, that's about 0.001°. Yay maths! Yay trigonometry!

----------


## Aeson

> Star Wars never really had a clear idea of what "light" is exactly. I mean, they seem to think you can make sabers out of the stuff!


It can't have been called a "light" saber because it's a "saber" that glows, a relatively lightweight "saber," a fancy high-tech sword that somehow uses light in its operating mechanism, or for any other reason than that the blade is "made of light?" Is the Darksaber made of "dark?" Are the projectiles/beams produced by turbolasers, laser cannons, and superlasers necessarily lasers despite displaying few of the properties of real lasers?




> The whole thing about the Hosnian system exploding in the Takodana night  sky is absurd. Even if you use time travel to justify that the photons  from the explosions are visible instantaneously 50 LY away, given the  distance, it shouldn't be that large in the sky. Just a small point.


I'd argue this one's more of a JJ Abrams problem than a Star Wars problem - remember his 2009 Star Trek movie?

----------


## Gez

> I'd argue this one's more of a JJ Abrams problem than a Star Wars problem - remember his 2009 Star Trek movie?


No, because I haven't watched it.  :Small Big Grin: 

(Or any other real Star Trek stuff. It's a franchise I only know through cultural osmosis because nerds can't help but talk constantly about Picard and Kirk and Spock and Worf.)

----------


## b_jonas

> Star Wars never really had a clear idea of what "light" is exactly.


Light is what English-speaking people call lamps that are fixed onto the ceiling or electric torches that you carry with you.  So basically any object that deliberately shines bright is called a light.  In Star Wars, this is applied consistently to glowing hot plasma sword blades and glowing plasma torpedoes shot from blasters or fighter ships.

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## Anonymouswizard

I believe they're also called lightsaberz because they're _really_ good at helping you to lose weight. Just ask Anakin, or Luke.

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## Kantaki

> I believe they're also called lightsaberz because they're _really_ good at helping you to lose weight. Just ask Anakin, or Luke.


Darth Maul. :Small Amused:  :Small Tongue:

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## Gez

> ÂLightÂ is what English-speaking people call lamps that are fixed onto the ceiling or electric torches that you carry with you.  So basically any object that deliberately shines bright is called a ÂlightÂ.  In Star Wars, this is applied consistently to glowing hot plasma sword blades and glowing plasma torpedoes shot from blasters or fighter ships.


Did you know the Millennium Falcon is supposedly flying at nearly 50 000 times the speed of light in normal space, on its _sub-light_ engines? True story. That's why it could go to Bespin so quickly without a hyperdrive. Actually, it's not clear at all that hyperspace is needed at all with this kind of speed.

Note that the X-Wings and TIE fighters are even faster. And people wonder why the empire didn't bother putting hyperspace drives in the TIEs.

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## Fyraltari

Memnarch, this extra is played by Carrie Fischer's real-life daughter. That's it, that's the joke.

*Spoiler: Also, regarding today's comic*
Show

Is Uncle Owen a shapeshifter, or does he regularly have reconstructive facial surgery?

----------


## b_jonas

> *Spoiler: Also, regarding today's comic*
> Show
> 
> , is Uncle Owen a shapeshifter, or does he regularly have reconstructive facial surgery?


*Spoiler: answer to Fyraltari*
Show

His wife is a master of disguise, with decades of experience.  His face just looks different because he got twenty years older since we last saw him.

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## The Glyphstone

> Did you know the Millennium Falcon is supposedly flying at nearly 50 000 times the speed of light in normal space, on its _sub-light_ engines? True story. That's why it could go to Bespin so quickly without a hyperdrive. Actually, it's not clear at all that hyperspace is needed at all with this kind of speed.
> 
> Note that the X-Wings and TIE fighters are even faster. And people wonder why the empire didn't bother putting hyperspace drives in the TIEs.


What happened to the Falcon just having a backup hyper drive?

----------


## Gez

> What happened to the Falcon just having a backup hyper drive?


An invention of the WEG Star Wars RPG, AFAIK. There's no mention of it in the movies. Granted, there's also no mention of "megalights" in the movies. The point is that it doesn't make sense and if you try to find some consistency or logic, you will have to retcon stuff.

I just found it funny that on Wookieepedia, someone took a line from one of the Disney canon spinoff novels, and extrapolated from it that the _sublight engines_ go several thousand times the speed of light. That felt like a good encapsulation of how much scientific sense Star Wars makes.

----------


## Fyraltari

> An invention of the WEG Star Wars RPG, AFAIK. There's no mention of it in the movies. Granted, there's also no mention of "megalights" in the movies. The point is that it doesn't make sense and if you try to find some consistency or logic, you will have to retcon stuff.
> 
> I just found it funny that on Wookieepedia, someone took a line from one of the Disney canon spinoff novels, and extrapolated from it that the _sublight engines_ go several thousand times the speed of light. That felt like a good encapsulation of how much scientific sense Star Wars makes.


Also "megalight" should really equal one million light-something.

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## SirKazum

> That felt like a good encapsulation of how much scientific sense Star Wars makes.


I think it saves one a lot of heartache to think of Star Wars as a fantasy series that happens to have spaceships and robots rather than sci-fi of any description. I mean, that might be getting into the weeds of what does or doesn't define sci-fi, but I like to think of it that way in terms of intention at least.

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## Fyraltari

> I think it saves one a lot of heartache to think of Star Wars as a fantasy series that happens to have spaceships and robots rather than sci-fi of any description. I mean, that might be getting into the weeds of what does or doesn't define sci-fi, but I like to think of it that way in terms of intention at least.


You're telling that the story about the space-farmboy becoming a space-knight with the help of a space-wizard and a space-knave to rescue a space-princess ins space fantasy? Unbelievable!

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## Anonymouswizard

> You're telling that the story about the space-farmboy becoming a space-knight with the help of a space-wizard and a space-knave to rescue a space-princess ins space fantasy? Unbelievable!


Of course not! For fantasy you need a space evil sorcerer.

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## Fyraltari

> Of course not! For fantasy you need a space evil sorcerer.


He showed up in the sequels!

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## Morgaln

> How, exactly, would you aim a weapon like that? You'd need to cross-reference historical records going back at least to the time it would (negatively) take for your beam to reach your intended target. And if there's something in the way, you'd have to move it and recalculate.
> 
> Then again they have hyperspace travel.


Actually, the target will be in exactly the place you see it in from the position of the weapon, since the light from the target has travelled for the same 50 years the weapon needs to reach it. So what you see is the position of the planet 50 years ago, right before the weapon hit.

The bigger problem is that you probably can't target it precisely enough considering the distance involved. In billiard, a few millimeters to the left or right can mean the difference between hitting your target or missing it, especially on long pots. In astronomical distances, a  millimeter off will probably make you miss your shot by millions of miles.

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## b_jonas

SirKazum: yes, and on the flip side of the coin, it's best to think of Discworld as sci fi that happens to involve dragons and wizards.

Morgaln: a spacecraft like that would have some capability for course correction built in.  You don't have to aim it impossibly precise, it can just correct its direction when it gets closer to the target.

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## Rodin

Heh, I just realized Darth Vader is the Black Knight.

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## Anonymouswizard

> He showed up in the sequels!


I was actually referring to Vader. Evil Sorcerers can be martially skilled, and Vader is explicitly referred to as one in the first film. While Palpatine fits the archetype even better, it just means we have two 'evil sorcerer' characters.

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## PoeticallyPsyco

> Darth Maul.


Don't forget Obi Wan! Freakin' nothin' left of him but clothes after his light saber diet!

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## Aeson

> I think it saves one a lot of heartache to think of Star Wars as a fantasy series that happens to have spaceships and robots rather than sci-fi of any description. I mean, that might be getting into the weeds of what does or doesn't define sci-fi, but I like to think of it that way in terms of intention at least.





> SirKazum: yes, and on the flip side of the coin, it's best to think of  Discworld as sci fi that happens to involve dragons and wizards.


Personally, I tend to feel that sci-fi and fantasy are essentially the same genre (especially soft sci-fi and readily-available/common-magic fantasy), it's just that one calls its magic 'technology' while the other calls its technology 'magic.' Star Wars and Star Trek have the trappings of a sci-fi setting while Discworld has the trappings of a fantasy setting, more or less, thus Star Wars and Star Trek are (soft) sci-fi while Discworld is fantasy.

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## Anonymouswizard

> Personally, I tend to feel that sci-fi and fantasy are essentially the same genre (especially soft sci-fi and readily-available/common-magic fantasy), it's just that one calls its magic 'technology' while the other calls its technology 'magic.' Star Wars and Star Trek have the trappings of a sci-fi setting while Discworld has the trappings of a fantasy setting, more or less, thus Star Wars and Star Trek are (soft) sci-fi while Discworld is fantasy.


I mean, Girl Genius has a character essentially transported from 300 years before the main plot refer to mad scientists as wizards, and despite Sparks taking offence to the term it makes complete sense when you look at the objects they make. There's even a near certainty that a prophecy out the rightful king returning might come true, but the behind the scenes work to make that happen is addressed (and the prophecy is almost certainly apocryphal).

However I personally tend to put Star Wars in the fantasy pile. At lot of it has to do with how the franchise revolves around a pair of religions who's practitioners use magic.

----------


## Morquard

> I mean, Girl Genius has a character essentially transported from 300 years before the main plot refer to mad scientists as wizards, and despite Sparks taking offence to the term it makes complete sense when you look at the objects they make. There's even a near certainty that a prophecy out the rightful king returning might come true, but the behind the scenes work to make that happen is addressed (and the prophecy is almost certainly apocryphal).
> 
> However I personally tend to put Star Wars in the fantasy pile. At lot of it has to do with how the franchise revolves around a pair of religions who's practitioners use magic.


I have heard the term Science-Fantasy used for SW in the past.

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## Fyraltari

The distinction between sci-fi and fantasy is blurry, but that's not their fault. All genre classification (and to a certain degree, all classification) is like that.

Where's the line between thriller, detective fiction, spy fiction and horror?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I have heard the term Science-Fantasy used for SW in the past.


Yeah, just the average member of the public tells me I'm making the term up. For them it's easier to just insist on 'it's a fantasy IN SPAAAAACE!'.




> The distinction between sci-fi and fantasy is blurry, but that's not their fault. All genre classification (and to a certain degree, all classification) is like that.
> 
> Where's the line between thriller, detective fiction, spy fiction and horror?


I'm not sure, but they're separated from police dramas by a thin blue line.

Today's comic:
*Spoiler: Later in the film*
Show

So whether this is Poor Allan I'm wondering how this interacts with Poe blowing up Starkiller Base later in the film.

Although to be fair Finn is also a FO agent, and Han might well be on their payroll. Maybe the FO decides to get rid of the time travelling superweapon.

----------


## Taevyr

Yeah, most fantasy and sci-fi shares the same fundamental element of "what if" in how their settings are created, built and explore certain themes or possibilities, with either "science" or "magic" being used as the explanation, but I wouldn't say that's enough to make them nearly the same genre. If so, we could lump it in with every post-apocalyptic setting that uses "radiation" as the explanation for everything weird about the setting.

Star Wars blurs the lines, but the Force is the only truly fantastical element: reflavour it as an oddly broad branch of psionics (perhaps some "psionic chemistry" to account for sith alchemy), and the setting is entirely soft sci-fi. It's one of the reasons I tend to particularly enjoy the stories within the setting that don't follow force users as the main plot: those seem to be the ones most willing to explore and expand the setting beyond "religious force wars that just keep repeating".

----------


## Aeson

> Star Wars blurs the lines, but the Force is the only truly fantastical element: reflavour it as an oddly broad branch of psionics (perhaps some "psionic chemistry" to account for sith alchemy), and the setting is entirely soft sci-fi.


Psionics is literally magic by another name, so I really don't see what distinction you're drawing here when you say that the Force needs to be 'reflavored' as a branch of psionics in order for Star Wars to fully fit into soft sci-fi.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Psionics is literally magic by another name, so I really don't see what distinction you're drawing here when you say that the Force needs to be 'reflavored' as a branch of psionics in order for Star Wars to fully fit into soft sci-fi.


Taking the religious aspect out?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Taking the religious aspect out?


I mean, religion and magic aren't considered inherently connected these days.

But yeah, psionics generally seem scientific due to more often running on Sufficiently Analysed Magic (meanwhile pulp style 'mad science' seems magical because it runs on 'no plans, no prototype'). Which is different to it having rules, psionics are just more likely to be presented as researched and codified in-setting than other kinds of magic.

----------


## Aeson

> Taking the religious aspect out?


Because  having a character who's lived basically his entire life in a monastic  order and is essentially a monk or priest of his faith speak about  something that he believes touches on his faith in dry, objective,  scientific language instead of giving his religion-colored take on it -  particularly when talking to someone he's trying to recruit into his  faith - makes the setting more science-y and believable?

There's  nothing wrong with having religious characters in a sci-fi setting -  it's certainly more believable than literally everyone (or, at least,  everyone who isn't a 'savage' or a 'barbarian' or some other such thing)  in a sci-fi setting being atheists, especially when dealing with the  sort of sci-fi setting that contains one or more fields of magic  psionics or the Force or whatever else the setting's not-magic is called  - and there's nothing wrong with having those characters put a  religious bent on any exposition that they give - particularly when  they're attempting to recruit someone to their faith or monastic order  or whatnot; the audience just needs to remember that just because  someone in the setting _says_ that something is the case doesn't necessarily mean that it _is_  the case. Furthermore, there is the context of the scenes where the  characters provide exposition about the not-magic - Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon,  and Yoda may be mentor figures to Anakin and Luke, but they're old  warrior-monks grooming their pupils to follow in their footsteps and  become warrior-monks of the Jedi faith, not secular educators preparing  their pupils to go off to university and get a B.S. in Force Metaphysics  or Force-ology whatever else you want to call a hypothetical scientific  field studying the Force.

----------


## Taevyr

> Taking the religious aspect out?





> I mean, religion and magic aren't considered inherently connected these days.
> 
> But yeah, psionics generally seem scientific due to more often running on Sufficiently Analysed Magic (meanwhile pulp style 'mad science' seems magical because it runs on 'no plans, no prototype'). Which is different to it having rules, psionics are just more likely to be presented as researched and codified in-setting than other kinds of magic.


This, essentially. If the Force were treated more like, for example, biotics in Mass Effect, there'd be a lot fewer people seeing it as straight "magic", and star wars'd feel less fantasy-like as a result, I believe: sure, mechanically both are essentially magic, but one's treated as a mystical Force and the other as a fully scientific, quantified, known effect. In the end, it's indeed mainly the semantics of how the "magic" is explained as I doubt many people think of Mass Effect as science fantasy, despite having a fully female race of telekineticists that can live for a millenium with the ability to mind meld with people.

Not that I mean the Force _should_ be treated that way: I enjoy the mystical, religious aspects of it and wouldn't want to see that focus change, though it'd be interesting to see someone explore it scientifically, whether they believe the religious aspects or not. But having it consistently be treated that way is, in my view, the main reason Star Wars is often seen as "science-fantasy".

----------


## Gez

Religion is perfectly compatible with sci-fi, just look at Dune. (Okay, so it's Space-Lawrence of Space-Arabia, but it's still sci-fi.)

----------


## SirKazum

> Religion is perfectly compatible with sci-fi, just look at Dune. (Okay, so it's Space-Lawrence of Space-Arabia, but it's still sci-fi.)


I feel like that's a weird example though, since religion _itself_ is sort of "scientificized" in Dune, what with the Missionaria Protectiva and whatnot. I mean, it's analyzed to the point it sorta loses all mysticism, and/or employed as a deliberate, constructed thing by characters such as the Bene Gesserit and later Leto II.

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## Fyraltari

> This, essentially. If the Force were treated more like, for example, biotics in Mass Effect, there'd be a lot fewer people seeing it as straight "magic", and star wars'd feel less fantasy-like as a result, I believe: sure, mechanically both are essentially magic, but one's treated as a mystical Force and the other as a fully scientific, quantified, known effect. In the end, it's indeed mainly the semantics of how the "magic" is explained as I doubt many people think of Mass Effect as science fantasy, despite having a fully female race of telekineticists that can live for a millenium with the ability to mind meld with people.
> 
> Not that I mean the Force _should_ be treated that way: I enjoy the mystical, religious aspects of it and wouldn't want to see that focus change, though it'd be interesting to see someone explore it scientifically, whether they believe the religious aspects or not. But having it consistently be treated that way is, in my view, the main reason Star Wars is often seen as "science-fantasy".





> Religion is perfectly compatible with sci-fi, just look at Dune. (Okay, so it's Space-Lawrence of Space-Arabia, but it's still sci-fi.)


Characters in _Dune_ are religious, but the setting itself is not. The supernatural elements are all framed as "natural" within this universe.

On the other hand, the Force in _Star Wars_ defies explanation. It cannot be quantified or measured.

----------


## Kornaki

> On the other hand, the Force in _Star Wars_ defies explanation. It cannot be quantified or measured.


Aren't midichlorians literally a measurement of force power, and I guess we all just hated it so much we decided to never mention it again oh I see what's going on now.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Aren't midichlorians literally a measurement of force power, and I guess we all just hated it so much we decided to never mention it again oh I see what's going on now.


They are a measurement of how sensitive one is to the Force, but nothing else.

----------


## Gez

> Characters in _Dune_ are religious, but the setting itself is not. The supernatural elements are all framed as "natural" within this universe.
> 
> On the other hand, the Force in _Star Wars_ defies explanation. It cannot be quantified or measured.


I don't see why religion should involve the existence of the supernatural in the setting. At its core, religion is about myths, spirituality, and ritualism -- something that gives a group some amount of social cohesion, by establishing baseline beliefs, values, and socialization. The myths don't need to be true, the spirituality doesn't need to be profound, and the rituals don't need to be rational. All you really need is for most everyone to participate.

As for the Force, it depends on your personal canon.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I don't see why religion should involve the existence of the supernatural in the setting. At its core, religion is about myths, spirituality, and ritualism -- something that gives a group some amount of social cohesion, by establishing baseline beliefs, values, and socialization. The myths don't need to be true, the spirituality doesn't need to be profound, and the rituals don't need to be rational. All you really need is for most everyone to participate.


I don't think, you get my point. Characters and setting being religious are unrelated. You can have a story about faith in a setting with no supernatural elements at all. And you can have a story that's not about religion at all but where the existence of a god or several is indisputable fact.

In _Dune_, the Fremen religion is central to the plot and the setting (from the second book on), but the metaphysical apsects of it, like the existence of Shai-Hulud (beyond the actual physical worms) and Shaitan don't feature in the story.

In _Star Wars_, most people are non-religious, but the divine entiry known as the Force does exist and features heavily into the plot.

One has religious characters in a non-religious setting, the other has (mostly) non-religious characters in a religious setting.



> As for the Force, it depends on your personal canon.


The Force was framed from the first movie onward as a mystical phenomenon, with no-other explanation for it presented. There are people who don't believe it exists, but there are no (at least in the main movies) characters who acknowledge its existence but frame it materialistically. The movies are inequivocal about it being a religious thing.

Edit: to give a more concrete example: if this was a setting with psionics à la _Mass Effect_ or something, for Obi-Wan's consciousness to survive bodily death, a scan of his brain would have to be stored on some material object somewhere. But that's not how it works in _Star Wars_, his soul survived bodily death, because there is in fact such a thing as a soul that can ascend to an afterlife by transcend ing flesh to become one with the pandeistic truth of the universe.

----------


## VoxRationis

I just noticed an odd detail in the stormtrooper armor in the last panel. The stormtrooper in this scene has on his left hip a secondary plate that's sort of under the main thigh guard and extends into the gap between it and the codpiece (something that looks like it must be absolutely terrible for basic movement), but on the right, there's no such plate, and just a very broad gap (that is, no less, highlighted as a target by being black against the white of the armor). Do all the First Order troopers have that setup?

No, I looked it up, and they definitely do not. I suspect the actor in this scene just has a longer thigh than did the average extra they used and the costume department had to make do. Seems like an ugly hack for a billion-dollar movie or whatever the budget was, but I suppose John Williams doesn't work for cheap.

This reminds me, though, of a common trend I see in sci-fi armors (which have some odd tendency to be almost uniformly plate-based) in that the costume designers seem to not want their characters to look _too_ much like late medieval/early modern knights and therefore eschew a lot of the pieces viewers might see as looking "medieval" (such as rondels, faulds, or just generally a lot of historical armor about the hips, because they tend to have a skirt-like appearance). Yet if the idea is that people are protecting the human body from harm with a system of rigid plates while retaining as much of the range of motion as possible, historical full plate is probably one of the best, most-optimized systems for doing that exact thing that has ever existed. Sure, you could strip out a variety of the decorative elements (or, if it's that kind of setting, replace them with different ones appropriate to the culture), but the form of the armor for something like _Mass Effect_ or _Star Wars_* should be well-served by being the same as that of historical plate.


*I've chosen these examples and not, say, _Halo_ because they avoid the complicating factor of the armors being powered, as ME and SW armors generally are not.

----------


## Fyraltari

> No, I looked it up, and they definitely do not. I suspect the actor in this scene just has a longer thigh than did the average extra they used and the costume department had to make do. Seems like an ugly hack for a billion-dollar movie or whatever the budget was, but I suppose John Williams doesn't work for cheap.


I think that actor is Daniel Craig.




> This reminds me, though, of a common trend I see in sci-fi armors (which have some odd tendency to be almost uniformly plate-based) in that the costume designers seem to not want their characters to look _too_ much like late medieval/early modern knights and therefore eschew a lot of the pieces viewers might see as looking "medieval" (such as rondels, faulds, or just generally a lot of historical armor about the hips, because they tend to have a skirt-like appearance).


Of course. They need the materials for the OVERSIZED PAULDRONS.

----------


## LeSwordfish

> I just noticed an odd detail in the stormtrooper armor in the last panel. The stormtrooper in this scene has on his left hip a secondary plate that's sort of under the main thigh guard and extends into the gap between it and the codpiece (something that looks like it must be absolutely terrible for basic movement), but on the right, there's no such plate, and just a very broad gap (that is, no less, highlighted as a target by being black against the white of the armor). Do all the First Order troopers have that setup?
> 
> No, I looked it up, and they definitely do not. I suspect the actor in this scene just has a longer thigh than did the average extra they used and the costume department had to make do. Seems like an ugly hack for a billion-dollar movie or whatever the budget was, but I suppose John Williams doesn't work for cheap.
> 
> This reminds me, though, of a common trend I see in sci-fi armors (which have some odd tendency to be almost uniformly plate-based) in that the costume designers seem to not want their characters to look _too_ much like late medieval/early modern knights and therefore eschew a lot of the pieces viewers might see as looking "medieval" (such as rondels, faulds, or just generally a lot of historical armor about the hips, because they tend to have a skirt-like appearance). Yet if the idea is that people are protecting the human body from harm with a system of rigid plates while retaining as much of the range of motion as possible, historical full plate is probably one of the best, most-optimized systems for doing that exact thing that has ever existed. Sure, you could strip out a variety of the decorative elements (or, if it's that kind of setting, replace them with different ones appropriate to the culture), but the form of the armor for something like _Mass Effect_ or _Star Wars_* should be well-served by being the same as that of historical plate.
> 
> 
> *I've chosen these examples and not, say, _Halo_ because they avoid the complicating factor of the armors being powered, as ME and SW armors generally are not.


I don't think that's an extra plate, I think it's the strap of his gun. You can see it hang vertically across his "codpiece" as well.

This particular stormtrooper is Daniel Craig, of course. I can't speak for the length of his thighs.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> I just noticed an odd detail in the stormtrooper armor in the last panel. The stormtrooper in this scene has on his left hip a secondary plate that's sort of under the main thigh guard and extends into the gap between it and the codpiece (something that looks like it must be absolutely terrible for basic movement), but on the right, there's no such plate, and just a very broad gap (that is, no less, highlighted as a target by being black against the white of the armor). Do all the First Order troopers have that setup?


That's not a gap between two plates, that's the black shoulder strap of his rifle hanging down in front of him.

EDIT: Oops, ninjas!

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Of course. They need the materials for the OVERSIZED PAULDRONS.


I mean how else would you stop laser blasts from hitting your head?

----------


## Fyraltari

> I mean how else would you stop laser blasts from hitting your head?


Through dodgy means.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Through dodgy means.


That doesn't sound reliable.

----------


## Aeson

> I mean how else would you stop laser blasts from hitting your head?


Yeah, helmets and personal shields are _so_ much less practical.


Regarding the discussion about sci-fi and the supernatural, I have to say that I feel it's a bit of a double standard to be fine with unexplained and unquantified magic when it's called a technology (e.g. hyperdrive) but not fine with unexplained and unquantified magic when it's essentially a difference between the rules of physics as we know them and the rules of physics as they exist in the setting (e.g. telekinesis). Beyond that, if sci-fi is an exploration of how something affects society, then I have to ask, is a discussion of how telekinesis obeys/evades Newton's Laws or how you can measure somebody's ultimate magical potential with a blood test or whatever really a better way of exploring how the magic affected society than having a monk talk about his faith in the context of the magic?

Oh, and regarding the "the Force is unquantifiable" thing, that's a bit debatable. We know from the movies that there's a blood test whose results correlate with Force sensitivity, and there's also old EU material which has remote detectors for Force use and Force ability as well as Force-based or Force-created or Force-conjured lightsabers, hyperdrives, etc. which were later essentially reverse-engineered, replicated, and eventually replaced by the technological lightsabers, hyperdrives, etc. familiar from the movies and most other Star Wars material.

----------


## VoxRationis

> I don't think that's an extra plate, I think it's the strap of his gun. You can see it hang vertically across his "codpiece" as well.





> That's not a gap between two plates, that's the black shoulder strap of his rifle hanging down in front of him.
> 
> EDIT: Oops, ninjas!


I stand corrected.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> I mean how else would you stop laser blasts from hitting your head?


In my experience, the best method to avoid head injuries is to not have a head.

----------


## The Glyphstone

> In my experience, the best method to avoid head injuries is to not have a head.


Aren't head injuries the #1 leading cause of not having a head though? So statistically, to reach that point of headlessness you must have suffered at least one head injury.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Aren't head injuries the #1 leading cause of not having a head though? So statistically, to reach that point of headlessness you must have suffered at least one head injury.


I thought that was neck injuries.

----------


## SirKazum

> Aren't head injuries the #1 leading cause of not having a head though? So statistically, to reach that point of headlessness you must have suffered at least one head injury.


That's called "regression to the mean". The accumulation of head injuries naturally leads to a reduction in head injury.

----------


## theangelJean

In today's comic, the one you guys tell me is Daniel Craig asks a rhetorical question. And I don't get it. Is it relevant to the current situation, or is it a dig at the person he's speaking to? In-universe (D&D or Star Wars) or something meta, like an actor allusion?

----------


## b_jonas

theangelJean: It's an actor allusion, yes.  Many of the lines in #2106 are from James Bond movies.

----------


## SirKazum

> theangelJean: It's an actor allusion, yes.  Many of the lines in #2106 are from James Bond movies.


The GM is in on it too. It's not "the guard releases your restraints", it's "the guard releases your _bonds_". Pretty small, but still.

----------


## Fyraltari

So this scene was cut from the movie, right? I don't remember a shot of Hux standing in front of the sun like that.




> The GM is in on it too. It's not "the guard releases your restraints", it's "the guard releases your _bonds_". Pretty small, but still.


I'm guessing, in-universe, the GM just randomly decided to make a Bond impression for that one bit character. After all, in the universe the players inhabit, Star Wars does not exist. That's the premise of this entire comic, after. But most of the other things we know and love (such as James Bond) do, albeit modified by the lack of Star Wars.

----------


## dmmaus

> So this scene was cut from the movie, right? I don't remember a shot of Hux standing in front of the sun like that.


No, it's in the movie.

----------


## VoxRationis

I'm not sure he actually does have the power to change history retroactively. After all, the accidental destruction of the Hosnian system happened _before_ anyone made the decision to fire.

----------


## Gez

Well now he just needs to cancel the order, and wait 159 minutes to make sure the fire sequence is indeed not initiated.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Ah, 'roleplayers who don't quite understand the topic' logic.

The sad thing is, taken at face value, this still makes more sense than the film.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Ah, 'roleplayers who don't quite understand the topic' logic.
> 
> The sad thing is, taken at face value, this still makes more sense than the film.


*Spoiler*
Show

"But what if I jump out of lightspeed just as we pass the shield" is such a roleplayer moment.

----------


## Gez

So Nien Nunb had a thing for Mon Mothma?

This is kinda messing with my head because of Blue Milk Special where Nien Nunb had a thing for Lando instead. (And it's Ackbar that courted Mon Mothma, because a fan thing happened.) And obviously they're different Star Wars parodies with different continuities and stuff, but they're still the same side characters that don't really get enough focus to really get distinct identities.

----------


## b_jonas

Gez: no, in Da&Dr, it was always Mon Mothma that Nien Numb loved.  We found out in #1402.  Basically all of Nunb's dialog in Da&Dr is about how he loves Mon Mothma.  He specifically says Mon Mothma's name again in #1438 and again in #1515.  As far as I understand, his love was unrequited.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Does anyone know what's the deal with the guy in the background who doesn't know where or when he is? I am seriously confused why this background conversation is taking place...  :Small Confused: 

Is it just a jab at how the resistance base superficially resembles the rebel base on Yavin?

----------


## Fyraltari

Maybe they just felt like adding another odd NPC.

Or maybe they're setting up some more time-travel stuff.
*Spoiler*
Show

Might explain how Palpatine returned, he didn't blow up on the Peace Moon, he was sent forward in time.

----------


## Taevyr

> Maybe they just felt like adding another odd NPC.
> 
> Or maybe they're setting up some more time-travel stuff.
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Might explain how Palpatine returned, he didn't blow up on the Peace Moon, he was sent forward in time.


*Spoiler*
Show

Could also play into a better explanation for Luke being as he is in episode VIII: the emperor escaping alive, and the Endor system either blowing up or being severely impacted by timey-whimey shenanigans (or Luke himself being impacted by them) could have quite a depressing effect on the man.

----------


## Gez

I was wondering if the chalcedony waves necklace mentioned here had some plot relevance, and it turns out that while it doesn't seem to have been talked about in previous Da&Dr strips, it is a real tidbit of Star Wars lore. Since it only appears in _A New Hope_, however, this is just a joke about why Leia no longer has it.

----------


## ghbok

Oh, that's a good eye, thank you for sharing that. I even googled the word 'chalcedony' to see what was up with the necklace, but it didn't help.

----------


## Taevyr

....I'm real curious what "campaign" they're talking about in that last exchange. Sounds like fun.

----------


## 137beth

Yep, this is the part of D&D that usually leaves me feeling left out, because I really want to know what their previous campaign was but I haven't seen enough movies to make a reasonable guess.

----------


## MinimanMidget

Last thread someone said it was the new Voltron series - I haven't seen it myself, so I can't confirm it.

Edit: the D&D wiki and the TvTropes page both say the same thing.

----------


## Cog

I'm curious to look back and see the other references, but this comic's one sounds exactly like Evangelion, down to the do-over on the last two sessions.

----------


## Taevyr

> I'm curious to look back and see the other references, but this comic's one sounds exactly like Evangelion, down to the do-over on the last two sessions.


....Damn. That might actually be it.

Honestly, it being a tabletop campaign _would_ be a good explanation for how weird that series gets.

----------


## Cog

> ....Damn. That might actually be it.


It's a shame that I did look back, then, because the Zaiforge Cannon thing sure sounds like Voltron after all.  :Small Big Grin:  I'm not sure there's a way to square that; I don't think even Super Robot Wars has an entry with both Evangelion and Voltron/Golion.

----------


## Kantaki

Could be both.
Like with Annie's vampire campaign. (Twilight/Van Helsing it was I think?)
It started as Voltron and Sally's meddling turned it into Evangelion.

----------


## Fyraltari

I don't know what Ben's complaining about. They've got almost an *entire* two-hundredth of a second to throw that lever.

----------


## Gez

It _is_ rather odd that exiting hyperspace is not done automatically by the navigation computer. At a faster-than-light speed, there's really no room for manual guesstimations.

My theory: normally the ship's navigation computer exits hyperspace, but Zeppo's tinkering broke that function and ever since then he has had to "emergency break" by just cutting off hyperspace manually instead of letting it exit as programmed.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Spoiler*
Show

Honestly can't wait for memnarch to find out that the movie incuded no special hyperdrive tech and the only justification for bypassing the shield and crashing into the planet is "Han Solo is just _that_ good."

----------


## Aeson

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Honestly can't wait for memnarch to find out that the movie incuded no special hyperdrive tech and the only justification for bypassing the shield and crashing into the planet is "Han Solo is just _that_ good."


*Spoiler*
Show

One of the characters in the movie also stated that the shield protecting Starkiller Base, and perhaps shields in general in Star Wars, flickers on and off at some high frequency rather than being a constant barrier, presumably as justification for how they can get through the shield in the first place - which, mind you, is yet another timing issue, especially if the duty cycle is high.

----------


## theangelJean

What's with the plethora of titles on the latest comics? Is there a reference I'm not getting?

----------


## sihnfahl

> What's with the plethora of titles on the latest comics? Is there a reference I'm not getting?


They're titles of songs, mostly by Pink Floyd.

Just references to the songs and the situation they're in.

----------


## Kantaki

New comics

The GM just running with it when the players come up with their own obstacles is just great. Kinda mean, but if they want to make things harder on themselves...  :Small Big Grin: 

*Spoiler: Episode IX*
Show

Hux pondering what would happen if he fires early got me thinking.
Might Palpatine's* return be caused by some temporal wonkyness from the Peace Moon going krakaraboom before firing?
He did die pretty close to the thing.

Same with the whole dagger thing. Time travel might make that slightly less weird.

*Whoever it will be.


And the explanation for the crossbow is interesting.
I'd probably have just said something about Wookiees being silly strong.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> And the explanation for the crossbow is interesting.
> I'd probably have just said something about Wookiees being silly strong.


I'm pretty sure that used to be the case, and a normal person couldn't actually fire it without hurting themselves. But then they let Han use it in Episode 7 and I guess threw that out the window...

----------


## hamishspence

It's less the firing (though it's on the heavy side) and more the pulling back of the string. Firing an already loaded and ready bowcaster is easier.

----------


## theangelJean

> It's less the firing (though it's on the heavy side) and more the pulling back of the string. Firing an already loaded and ready bowcaster is easier.


Doesn't solve the kickback issue, though. Conservation of momentum and all that.

----------


## Taevyr

> Time travel might make that slightly less weird.


They should make this into some sort of ground rule for movie directors/writers: if one can say this about the plot of your movie and be correct, you might want to rethink it.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> They should make this into some sort of ground rule for movie directors/writers: if one can say this about the plot of your movie and be correct, you might want to rethink it.


I'm pretty sure this and the post you quoted should be in spoilers.

----------


## theangelJean

*Spoiler: discussion of what is and isn't a spoiler*
Show




> I'm pretty sure this and the post you quoted should be in spoilers.


While the quoted post is from a spoiler section, I thought the time travel element was pretty well established in the current chapter of Darths & Droids. I'm pretty sure that the newbies have heard that the sequel trilogy has something weird going on by now, so the idea that time travel might make something less weird isn't a spoiler in itself?

----------


## SirKazum

> *Spoiler: discussion of what is and isn't a spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> While the quoted post is from a spoiler section, I thought the time travel element was pretty well established in the current chapter of Darths & Droids. I'm pretty sure that the newbies have heard that the sequel trilogy has something weird going on by now, so the idea that time travel might make something less weird isn't a spoiler in itself?


*Spoiler: Replying to spoilered post inside spoiler*
Show

You may have a point there, but if it were me, I'd still keep it all within spoilers just to be on the safe side. You never know how much this sort of indirect, general comment (which I've done off-spoiler myself, I admit) may color their reading.


That's _if_ they (the "haven't-watched-sequels-stuff" squad) are still reading this thread anyway, with the potential spoiler minefield it can get to be sometimes  :Small Tongue:

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> It's less the firing (though it's on the heavy side) and more the pulling back of the string. Firing an already loaded and ready bowcaster is easier.


I didn't think it actually had a string. It's just a big, crossbow-shaped blaster, isn't it?  :Small Confused:

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I didn't think it actually had a string. It's just a big, crossbow-shaped blaster, isn't it?


I believe it actually fires a quarrel. Not sure why, but it apparently does.

----------


## Aeson

> I believe it actually fires a quarrel. Not sure why, but it apparently does.


As for the idea that the bowcaster fires quarrels of some description, Chewie never seems to need to load prior to shooting or reload between shots, there doesn't appear to be room for a magazine - certainly not one large enough to fit something that I'd describe as a quarrel rather than as a bullet - and Chewie doesn't seem to have quarrels on his person (the items on his bandolier are more appropriately sized for magazines for rifle-caliber bullets, if anything, and, again, I can't recall ever seeing him (re)load the bowcaster, so it's not clear that his bandolier actually holds specialized ammunition for the bowcaster), and the audio-visual effects for the bowcaster are very similar to those used for blasters. The idea that bowcaster shots were meant to be fundamentally distinct from blaster shots seems to me more than a little suspect, regardless of what Disney or EU material has to say on the matter.

As to the idea that the bowcaster is a fancy high-tech crossbow, I would point out that the 'bow' and 'bowstring' of Chewie's bowcaster can be observed during firing in the scene where Han fails to sneak up on a scout trooper on the forest moon of Endor, and there is no indication that either so much as twitches during firing. If the bowcaster is a crossbow, then so is a rifle with a recurve bow tied to the barrel.

Pretty much the only reason to think that a bowcaster is anything other than a blaster stylized to look like a crossbow is that it looks something like a crossbow; prior to TFA, there wasn't even any real indication in the films that it was a notably more powerful weapon than for example a stormtrooper's blaster carbine.

----------


## Gez

I remember reading some description that the globes on the tips of the bow were electromagnet thingies so it worked kind of like a coilgun except without a coil. And yeah, it shoots a fancy hi-tech quarrel that wreathes itself in plasma when accelerated.

It's all a bunch of expanded universe nonsense, to be sure, but that's what happens when you put a plasma crossbow and let other people try to make sense out of it.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I never said it made sense. But if you're quibbling about bowcasters firing quarrels then there's some space wizards who'd love to discuss realism with you.

Personally, I assume that it holds just enough quarrels that we never have to see Chewie reload on screen. It's not realistic but it's enough for me.

----------


## Aeson

> I never said it made sense. But if  you're quibbling about bowcasters firing quarrels then there's some  space wizards who'd love to discuss realism with you.
> 
> Personally, I assume that it holds just enough quarrels that we never  have to see Chewie reload on screen. It's not realistic but it's enough  for me.


In visual media, if you want to have thing A and thing B be two different things, you have to _show_  that they're different; if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck,  and acts like a duck, then it is a duck. If the bowcaster was meant to  be a crossbow, it'd act like one; if the bolts it produced were meant to be plasma-coated quarrels rather than blaster bolts then there ought to be _something_  differentiating them from blaster bolts or we ought to see the quarrels  or something so that the audience can see that it's not just another  blaster variant; instead, we have something that looks like a blaster  with a bow attached at the muzzle, which produces bolts that look,  sound, and behave like blaster bolts do.

The two most reasonable  conclusions to draw from what is shown in the films are that the  bowcaster is a blaster stylized to look like a crossbow or that the  bowcaster is a weapon which uses a slightly different operating  mechanism ('justifying' the bow part of the weapon) to produce the same  effect as a blaster - i.e. a bowcaster is to a blaster more or less what  coil guns, electromagnetic rail guns, pneumatic guns, and conventional  firearms are to one another.

Also, as to your implication that  I'm being pedantic and over-analyzing something, my response to you is  that an exercise in critical thinking is never wholly wasted whereas  blind acceptance of the statements of authority, whether due to respect  for that authority or due to apathy or disinterest in the subject  matter, breeds a certain laziness of thought - _especially_ when  what that authority claims to be the case is so clearly unsupported by  the evidence as is the case for the claim that bowcasters are crossbows  that coat their quarrels in some kind of plasma. Moreover, suggesting  that critical thought either should not or cannot be applied to a  setting merely because magic exists within that setting is simply  offensive, especially when it comes to something as simple as weapon  classification by observable characteristics and there is no indication  that the setting's explicit magic has anything to do with the setting's  notionally-technological systems.

----------


## memnarch

Aye, I'm still around, though generally busy enough to only skim the comments and rarely make a post these days. And most of my thoughts about the comic and things end up on website under the comic anyway, so I end up feeling a bit like Old Grandad the Troll sometimes.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Err Phasma?
Before you push the Off-button, please consider what happened to the first Peace Moon. Or the defence station.
Be smart, not Tarkin. 

*Spoiler: The Force Awakens*
Show

Huh, interesting changes. I think in the movie Phasma caved pretty much immediately to save her bacon, didn't she?
Much better showing here. 
Also, better reason to "help".

----------


## 137beth

I'm getting flashbacks to OOTS Book 2.

----------


## Fyraltari

Wait the pilot on the right doesn't have NPC speech bubbles. Who is that and who is playing him?

----------


## dmmaus

> Wait the pilot on the right doesn't have NPC speech bubbles. Who is that and who is playing him?


Snap Wexley, Sally.

----------


## Fyraltari

Oh look! The name "First Order" actually makes some sense now!




> Snap Wexley, Sally.


Thanks!

----------


## SirKazum

Wait... WAIT!

*Spoiler: Big Episode IX spoilers*
Show

Is Palpatine, after he "somehow" returns (I'll never get over that), merely a client who placed a _huge_ order of however many planet-destroying battleships he's got with Nute's organization?

----------


## Fyraltari

> Wait... WAIT!
> 
> *Spoiler: Big Episode IX spoilers*
> Show
> 
> Is Palpatine, after he "somehow" returns (I'll never get over that), merely a client who placed a _huge_ order of however many planet-destroying battleships he's got with Nute's organization?


*Spoiler*
Show

Possible. He might also be Nute in Palpatine's body.

----------


## 137beth

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Possible. He might also be Nute in Palpatine's body.


*Spoiler: Episode IX*
Show

Nute in Palpatine's body seems more likely to me.

----------


## Fyraltari

Problem is, it's a bit obvious, isn't it? It'd work, but it wouldn't be very surprising.

----------


## b_jonas

> *Spoiler: Big Episode IX spoilers*
> Show
> 
> Is Palpatine, after he "somehow" returns


*Spoiler: episode IX*
Show

I still don't understand why some people find Palpatine's return odd.  

Palpatine faked his death in the least implausible way.  He fell down a hole in his own throne room, so clearly he could have prepared that hole as a way to escape if the situation gets hot.  This is in a universe with force fields that slow down your fall, and where Luke fell down a bottomless pit and survived.  This is what we normally call a Disney death, its goal is that the villain can either stay dead or be revealed to have survived depending on what works better in a sequel.  

Palpatine was already a powerful Force user, studying the secrets of the Dark Side and Dearth Plagueis.  So now in Rise of Skywalkre he returned as a Force Lich.  Rey revives him deliberately because an undead lich is more powerful than a living human.  

Palpatine also acquired the Lost Orb somehow.  Instead of putting it in an obvious moon-sized battle station to project power, he hides it in one of a swarm of a thousand identical ships, so that any one of them could be a planet killer and there's no way for the good guys to know which ship that is until it's too late.

----------


## Kantaki

> *Spoiler: episode IX*
> Show
> 
> I still don't understand why some people find Palpatine's return odd.  
> 
> Palpatine faked his death in the least implausible way.  He fell down a hole in his own throne room, so clearly he could have prepared that hole as a way to escape if the situation gets hot.  This is in a universe with force fields that slow down your fall, and where Luke fell down a bottomless pit and survived.  This is what we normally call a Disney death, its goal is that the villain can either stay dead or be revealed to have survived depending on what works better in a sequel.  
> 
> Palpatine was already a powerful Force user, studying the secrets of the Dark Side and Dearth Plagueis.  So now in Rise of Skywalkre he returned as a Force Lich.  Rey revives him deliberately because an undead lich is more powerful than a living human.  
> 
> Palpatine also acquired the Lost Orb somehow.  Instead of putting it in an obvious moon-sized battle station to project power, he hides it in one of a swarm of a thousand identical ships, so that any one of them could be a planet killer and there's no way for the good guys to know which ship that is until it's too late.


*Spoiler: Rise of Skywalker*
Show

Or worse, he found a way to copy the Orb.
All those ships could carry one.
If there's only one Orb it's easy, it's on the ship that demonstrated the new super gun.

(Or the Orb's hidden in Palpatine's fortress or wherever and the ships are just relays so he can blow stuff up without risking his energy source.

Huh. Peace Moon III?  :Small Confused:

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler: episode IX*
> Show
> 
> I still don't understand why some people find Palpatine's return odd.  
> 
> Palpatine faked his death in the least implausible way.  He fell down a hole in his own throne room, so clearly he could have prepared that hole as a way to escape if the situation gets hot.  This is in a universe with force fields that slow down your fall, and where Luke fell down a bottomless pit and survived.  This is what we normally call a Disney death, its goal is that the villain can either stay dead or be revealed to have survived depending on what works better in a sequel.  
> 
> Palpatine was already a powerful Force user, studying the secrets of the Dark Side and Dearth Plagueis.  So now in Rise of Skywalkre he returned as a Force Lich.  Rey revives him deliberately because an undead lich is more powerful than a living human.  
> 
> Palpatine also acquired the Lost Orb somehow.  Instead of putting it in an obvious moon-sized battle station to project power, he hides it in one of a swarm of a thousand identical ships, so that any one of them could be a planet killer and there's no way for the good guys to know which ship that is until it's too late.


*Spoiler: Episode IX*
Show

Mostly because Sheev's death was presented as a death, and so people are less annoyed about him returning than him returning without explanation. Meanwhile Luke's survival was clearly shown, they're different situations.

That said I'm not convinced Palpatine will return in Campaign IX. Yes, he could be revived and have ordered a fleet of Star Destroyers with Mute, but he could also be Mute in Palpatine's body or Snoke's original body. Anything is possible.

But if Palpatine does return I'm sure the WIs will actually give an explanation.

----------


## b_jonas

> *Spoiler: Episode IX*
> Show
> 
> But if Palpatine does return I'm sure the WIs will actually give an explanation.


*Spoiler: The Last Skywalker movie spoilers*
Show

The part of why Palpatine survived works both in the movies and Da&Dr, but almost everything else about Palpatine differs.  His personality is completely different in the comics and the movies.  He's still a powerful force user either way.  In the movie, he's the master manipulating Snoke and Kylo Ren and Rey.  I don't think that will work in Da&Dr, but I have no idea what his role will be and how he's related to the First Order.  He might be working together with Rey, given that both of them are played by Pete, but then why does Rey betray and resurrect him?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler: The Last Skywalker movie spoilers*
> Show
> 
> The part of why Palpatine survived works both in the movies and Da&Dr, but almost everything else about Palpatine differs.  His personality is completely different in the comics and the movies.  He's still a powerful force user either way.  In the movie, he's the master manipulating Snoke and Kylo Ren and Rey.  I don't think that will work in Da&Dr, but I have no idea what his role will be and how he's related to the First Order.  He might be working together with Rey, given that both of them are played by Pete, but then why does Rey betray and resurrect him?


*Spoiler*
Show

When is Palpatine played by Pete?

----------


## b_jonas

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> When is Palpatine played by Pete?


*Spoiler*
Show

In the comic version of Episode 9: The Last Skywalker, when he decides to make a better villain character so they don't always have to fight Nute or incompetent villains.  He becomes a lich, because his limited success with Chirrut and Rey confirms his previous thoughts that mortal bodies are weak.  He min-maxes to research a better form of Force Lightning, at the cost that the heroes can reflect it back to him.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> In the comic version of Episode 9: The Last Skywalker, when he decides to make a better villain character so they don't always have to fight Nute or incompetent villains.  He becomes a lich, because his limited success with Chirrut and Rey confirms his previous thoughts that mortal bodies are weak.  He min-maxes to research a better form of Force Lightning, at the cost that the heroes can reflect it back to him.


Are you from the future?

----------


## b_jonas

> Are you from the future?


No.  I came from the past and go to the future.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Spoiler: Latest comic, no movie stuff*
Show


Phasma being Valorum/Grievous makes sense and certainly explains the... odd speech pattern. What's interesting is that the comic has treated Phasma as female so far. I guess the organic parts came from a woman, but does that "make" Valorum trans, or does he still sees himself as a man and never bothered to explain to anyone. Or maybe they don't care about gender at all?

----------


## Metastachydium

> *Spoiler: Latest comic, no movie stuff*
> Show
> 
> 
> Phasma being Valorum/Grievous makes sense and certainly explains the... odd speech pattern. What's interesting is that the comic has treated Phasma as female so far. I guess the organic parts came from a woman, but does that "make" Valorum trans, or does he still sees himself as a man and never bothered to explain to anyone. Or maybe they don't care about gender at all?


*Spoiler*
Show

Well, she(?)'s mostly a robot and considers robotic creatures inherently superior to organic ones. Robots "reproduce" asexually, so gonochorism should be of precious little interest to her(?); consequently, a linguistic category that is ultimately a means of giving (perceived) sex a grammatical marker in language might not be something she(?) cares about much. Also, _he_ wasn't supposed to be female, _Annie_.

----------


## theangelJean

New comic:
Do PIE fighters have a "forward"?
I thought the position of the pilot inside was fairly manoeuvrable.
Also if they were based on pies in the first place, they wouldn't have a "front". Although that might imply that they fly more like saucers, rather than the vertical alignment we normally see them in the films.
X-wings, on the other hand, clearly have an longitudinal axis. Three distinct orthogonal axes, come to that.

----------


## Aeson

> Do PIE fighters have a "forward"?
> I thought the position of the pilot inside was fairly manoeuvrable.


TIE Fighter cockpits are never shown rotating independently of the hexagonal wing panels in the movies - whether in the Original or the Sequel Trilogy - and the axis running from the center of the cockpit out the window ahead of the pilot always appears to be aligned with a major axis of the hexagonal wing panels whereas if the cockpit could rotate independently of the wing panels you'd expect that you would at least occasionally see an alignment of the cockpit and the wing panels which isn't that.

Also, other TIE-series craft seen in the films - Darth Vader's fighter, the TIE Bombers (and the blink-and-you'll-miss-it TIE Shuttle, although that one's pretty difficult to make out) seen in _The Empire Strikes Back_, the TIE Interceptors seen in _Return of the Jedi_, and most of the EU TIE variants - all have a pretty clear-cut longitudinal axis.




> Also if they were based on pies in the first place, they wouldn't have a  "front". Although that might imply that they fly more like saucers,  rather than the vertical alignment we normally see them in the films.


I don't think that they used pies (or saucers or other similarly-shaped things) as markers for the fighters in the Darths & Droids game, I think Jim just misremembered the name of the fighters and the name that he used is the name that stuck with the group - the GM names the fighters TIE Fighters when the party escapes the Peace Moon, but Jim names the fighters PIE Fighters a session or two later when the Peace Moon scrambles fighters to deal with the Rebel attack.

----------


## MinimanMidget

> I don't think that they used pies (or saucers or other similarly-shaped things) as markers for the fighters in the Darths & Droids game, I think Jim just misremembered the name of the fighters and the name that he used is the name that stuck with the group - the GM names the fighters TIE Fighters when the party escapes the Peace Moon, but Jim names the fighters PIE Fighters a session or two later when the Peace Moon scrambles fighters to deal with the Rebel attack.


As of Rogue One, they were originally named TIE fighters by Jim, then renamed to PIEs by Jim one movie later.

----------


## theangelJean

> I don't think that they used pies (or saucers or other similarly-shaped things) as markers for the fighters in the Darths & Droids game, I think Jim just misremembered the name of the fighters and the name that he used is the name that stuck with the group - the GM names the fighters TIE Fighters when the party escapes the Peace Moon, but Jim names the fighters PIE Fighters a session or two later when the Peace Moon scrambles fighters to deal with the Rebel attack.


Apparently my headcanon is inaccurate. (Also I'd forgotten how long-running this comic was.) I could have sworn there was a fighter misnamed for a food item which was standing in as a mini. But I finally trawled through both sections of the comic you were referring to, and you're right, I was mistaken.

As an aside, I've been pondering the wisdom of having my 8-year-old's first Star Wars experience be Darths and Droids. She loves comics and graphic novels, we've read her all of the OoTS books and 13 volumes of Girl Genius and she regularly re-reads them. She doesn't like live action where there's any kind of danger, so she's not ready for the movies any time soon. We have "8 minute Star Wars stories" (I think it's ages 3+) and she loved that. I'm a bit worried D&D would completely ruin the movies for her - I'm just imagining "they ruined Jar-Jar!" But she walked in while I was archive trawling and read a few pages - I'd started from Ep IV - and now she wants to read from the beginning, so ... Too late?

----------


## Kantaki

To be fair, it's Jar Jar.
I don't think reading Darths and Droids first will make that experience any worse. :Small Tongue: 
A bigger issue might be that some elements of the comic work better if you know the movies.
("Jar Jar, you are a genius"*, Vader's identity...)

*I still would wear that one as a shirt. Just to see the reactions.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## SirKazum

> I could have sworn there was a fighter misnamed for a food item which was standing in as a mini.


IIRC, the model for the Millennium Falcon comes from a sandwich. I think that little pilot's cabin that sticks out was an olive or something. You could be getting that memory mixed up with the name of the PIE fighters...

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

I also want to say that they used food as props in the giant battle of Attack of the Clones, for structures and vehicles. But I'm too lazy to double check that.

----------


## VoxRationis

They absolutely did that, but that wasn't directly related to the naming of the TIEs/PIEs, given the time gap.'

Edit: Also, during the strips where such food-based representation was happening, all the vehicle classes had very sober, non-food-related names associated with them.

----------


## theangelJean

I was wondering where everyone went. I went to formulate a reply to memnarch's speculation about what was happening in the movie at this point, but I couldn't actually remember any details other than what we can see in the screen grabs.  I'm probably more interested in the comic than the movie itself at the moment, and TFA hasn't yet attained rewatch value yet - compared to the OT where multiple people here know sections by heart, if not the whole thing. 

And then a new comic came out. Back in a bit, off to perform chi-squared tests on all my dice ...

----------


## ByzantiumBhuka

Interesting developments with regard to Corey's video gaming group. I'm betting that'll play into *Spoiler: Episode VIII*
Show

the whole Ahch-To dynamic between Pete and Corey. Some nice parallels to be made between Luke's and Corey's respective guilts.

----------


## Kantaki

Jim's characters talking about each other is always good. :Small Big Grin: 

Also, something I realized on watching Return of the Jedi again (in Concert! :Small Cool: *): The biggest weakness of the Emperor wasn't his arrogance, but being incapable of _shutting the hell up for five damn minutes!_
Seriously, there are several moments where the only reason Luke snaps out of falling only because Palpatine can't keep his trap shut.

And I never realized how funny the whole Ewok battle actually is. :Small Big Grin: 
Like, sure, they _are_ ridiculously effective, considering the difference in tech levels, but that's not what I mean.
Even if it is amusing... :Small Amused: 
But the strategies that _don't_ work? It might be mean, but a fluffy little teddy-bear ineffectually hammering on the foot of a Chicken-Walker with a rock is _hillarious_. :Small Big Grin: 
Mind you, watching with an larger audience probably helped, giggles are infectious.

*Minor drawback was the orchestra playing over the dialouges sometimes, but most people there (and here :Small Tongue: ) probably know those by heart anyway. :Small Wink:

----------


## The Glyphstone

I always like to point out that the Ewoks were only winning for the first few minutes of the battle, when they had surprise and pre-prepared traps. Once those run out its mostly playing out like stone age koalas against soldiers should, until the heroes save the day.

----------


## Aeson

> Also, something I realized on watching Return of the Jedi again (in Concert!*): The biggest weakness of the Emperor wasn't his arrogance, but being incapable of _shutting the hell up for five damn minutes!_
> Seriously, there are several moments where the only reason Luke snaps out of falling only because Palpatine can't keep his trap shut.


It is perhaps worth examining what the Emperor's objective in this fight is, and asking yourself whether or not Luke killing Vader in the heat of the moment, so to speak, is sufficient for that purpose. Sure, Luke would probably regret killing Vader in a fit of rage during that fight for the rest of his life, and sure, someone like Palpatine could probably get some mileage out of throwing that in Luke's face whenever they meet, but it's the sort of thing that, upon reflection, would tend to reinforce the Jedi doctrine of being wary of your emotions and acting only when you're calm and in control of yourself.

What Palpatine really wants out of that fight isn't for Luke to kill Vader but rather for Luke to knowingly and deliberately violate his morals and _choose_ to do (something he considers) wrong. It's one thing for Luke to beat Vader down in a fit of rage; it's something else entirely for Luke, having already beaten Vader in a fit of rage, to cold-bloodedly decide to kill Vader when he's no longer a clear threat. It's why Palpatine tells Luke he's unarmed and defenseless while prompting Luke to attempt to strike him down, it's why Palpatine and Vader keep pushing Luke to fight Vader despite Luke's obvious reluctance, it's why at the end of the fight Palpatine tells Luke to finish Vader off and take Vader's place, because in order for Luke to be well and truly fallen he needs to not only step into the darkness but embrace it.

----------


## Kantaki

> It is perhaps worth examining what the Emperor's objective in this fight is, and asking yourself whether or not Luke killing Vader in the heat of the moment, so to speak, is sufficient for that purpose. Sure, Luke would probably regret killing Vader in a fit of rage during that fight for the rest of his life, and sure, someone like Palpatine could probably get some mileage out of throwing that in Luke's face whenever they meet, but it's the sort of thing that, upon reflection, would tend to reinforce the Jedi doctrine of being wary of your emotions and acting only when you're calm and in control of yourself.
> 
> What Palpatine really wants out of that fight isn't for Luke to kill Vader but rather for Luke to knowingly and deliberately violate his morals and _choose_ to do (something he considers) wrong. It's one thing for Luke to beat Vader down in a fit of rage; it's something else entirely for Luke, having already beaten Vader in a fit of rage, to cold-bloodedly decide to kill Vader when he's no longer a clear threat. It's why Palpatine tells Luke he's unarmed and defenseless while prompting Luke to attempt to strike him down, it's why Palpatine and Vader keep pushing Luke to fight Vader despite Luke's obvious reluctance, it's why at the end of the fight Palpatine tells Luke to finish Vader off and take Vader's place, because in order for Luke to be well and truly fallen he needs to not only step into the darkness but embrace it.


Fair enough. I still think less would've been more.
The Dark Side being ultimatly self sabotaging isn't entirely inappropriate though.
I mean, how often did they try that whole "Deathstar" thing*? (What's the definition of insanity again? :Small Amused: )

*Spoiler: *Sequels*
Show

Counting the fleet in Episode IX that would be four times, I think?
Probably even more if we look at the EU/Legends.
I can think of about five without checking, so higher double digits maybe? :Small Big Grin:

----------


## theangelJean

Yay, I'm not the only one here!

Pete being the one who fixed the website and is now bringing down the law on the attackers fits with the reveal last campaign that he was previously in IT and is now a lawyer. But I can't help wondering what else is planned and whether his occupation will be even more relevant later on. (I haven't actually seen VIII and IX so I can't spoil anything.)

The out-of-game stuff so far has mainly added to the development of the characters and tied in to the plot of the films - for example the relationship between Annie and Jim being tested out through their game characters, and Ben's career change informing Obi-wan's attitude. But this is the first thing to pull multiple players away from the table. If Pete is taking legal action, what happens if they need to go to court?

I guess it is time we found out more about Corey than just "the new kid who plays computer games" though. Everyone else is a bit more fleshed out.

----------


## 137beth

*Spoiler: Episode VII*
Show

My memory's hazy, but wasn't there snow in the lightsaber fight at the end of the movie?  I'm guessing the comments about the sun being gone and dropping temperatures are to justify that.

----------


## Aeson

> I'm guessing the comments about the sun being gone and dropping temperatures are to justify [snow at a later point in the movie].


Considering that there's snow on the ground in the part of the Peace Moon where the party is before anything ever happened to the local star, I don't think that that's how they're justifying the snow, nor that they would need such a justification.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

It's just a cold planet, or at least the part of they're on is.

----------


## Gez

> It's just a cold planet, or at least the part of they're on is.


Planets in Star Wars are single-biome. I think Naboo is the only exception in that it had both water areas _and_ land areas, a positively extravagant variety of biomes. Otherwise you've got desert planet that's all desert, swamp planet that's all swamp, ice planet that's all ice, city planet that's all city, etc.

As for the Peace Moon, it used to be the Forest Moon of Endor, so it went from being all redwood, all the time to now being all snow, all the time. I'm not sure about the reason for the biome conversion, whether it's caused by the destruction of its defense station, the digging of that giant trench, or just the fact it's been turned into a spaceship and is now sailing far away from its sun. Who knows. The important thing is that the Ewoks all froze to death.

----------


## Kantaki

> Who knows. The important thing is that the Ewoks all froze to death.


It's spelled Ewoc*. :Small Tongue: 
And they might've frozen to death, but they made a killing selling those fur blankets. :Small Amused: 

*Endor World of Opportunity and Commerce

----------


## theangelJean

New comic. 

Yes, that is rather a lot of jacket changing.

----------


## Kantaki

I really didn't expect that he would take the name stealing any further.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I really didn't expect that he would take the name stealing any further.


*Spoiler: spoilers for the trilogy*
Show

The Man With No Identity seems like a precursor to Han's death, but I'm betting he actually survives and escapes the forest moon.

I'm telling ya, he turns up in Campaign 9 having stolen the identity of the droid F4K3-N4M3, and reveals to Kylo that he stole his father's identity before he was conceived.

----------


## Fyraltari

> *Spoiler: spoilers for the trilogy*
> Show
> 
> reveals to Kylo that he stole his father's identity before he was conceived.


*Spoiler: I guess?*
Show

I think a sperm bank would habe to be involved, then.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler: I guess?*
> Show
> 
> I think a sperm bank would habe to be involved, then.


*Spoiler: Ramblings of a madperson*
Show

Not if he's really Rey's half-brother!

Actually, do we have any proof that Rey and/or Kylo aren't adopted in the D&D universe?

----------


## Fyraltari

*Spoiler: This scene in the movie*
Show

*Spoiler: Seriously, no peeking, commentators*
Show

 I wonder how they're going to justify The Man With No Name tenderly caressing Kylo'd face as he dies in this

----------


## Kantaki

> *Spoiler: This scene in the movie*
> Show
> 
> *Spoiler: Seriously, no peeking, commentators*
> Show
> 
>  I wonder how they're going to justify The Man With No Name tenderly caressing Kylo'd face as he dies in this


*Spoiler*
Show

Jim rolls for seduction? :Small Big Grin:  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler: This scene in the movie*
> Show
> 
> *Spoiler: Seriously, no peeking, commentators*
> Show
> 
>  I wonder how they're going to justify The Man With No Name tenderly caressing Kylo'd face as he dies in this


Well clearly-




> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Jim rolls for seduction?


You know what, I've changed my mind.

----------


## theangelJean

New comic. Not sure if this counts as a spoiler but ...



> This can't have happened in the movie anywhere close to the comic.


As far as I remember, it happened in the movie almost exactly as it did in this comic.

The context was almost entirely different. 

You know, I'm starting to wonder if we need a spoiler Darths and Droids thread as well as a non-spoiler one, like they have at the irregulars forums. Part of the discussion of the comic during the prequel and original trilogies was how they related to and diverged from the movie plots. But doing that now - even in spoiler boxes - just seems rude.

----------


## Fyraltari

I've got to say, reading Aurilee trying to guess how this scene played out in the movie has been _tremendously_ enjoyable so far.

----------


## PontificatusRex

> I've got to say, reading Aurilee trying to guess how this scene played out in the movie has been _tremendously_ enjoyable so far.


it's kinda the best thing about the strip right now - and that's not a dis on the actual comic itself.

----------


## theangelJean

> I've got to say, reading Aurilee trying to guess how this scene played out in the movie has been _tremendously_ enjoyable so far.


aurilee is doing commentary? I thought only memnarch and keybounce were doing this one, and keybounce is still catching up. Is aurilee on the irregulars forums?

----------


## Fyraltari

> aurilee is doing commentary? I thought only memnarch and keybounce were doing this one, and keybounce is still catching up. Is aurilee on the irregulars forums?


No, I'm sorry I meant memnarch. I blame my confusion on the box's color.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Wait, is Kylo one of the younglings? He seems a bit young.

*Spoiler*
Show

I'm guessing this has something to do with the scene of Luke attacking Baby Kylo in Episode 8?

----------


## Fyraltari

Dang, that's some serious editing skills!




> Wait, is Kylo one of the younglings? He seems a bit young.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I'm guessing this has something to do with the scene of Luke attacking Baby Kylo in Episode 8?


*Spoiler*
Show

That would make the most sense to me. Anakin's ghost possessed Luke somehow.

----------


## SirKazum

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> That would make the most sense to me. Anakin's ghost possessed Luke somehow.


That... would be a _very_ elegant solution, I'll say.

----------


## 137beth

*Spoiler: current page, not the movie*
Show

Maybe Kylo is the "Greedo" Anakin killed in Episode I, and that that Greedo was the son of the Greedo NoName killed before stealing his identity.  He's come back to life with some weird force-shenanigans.

----------


## theangelJean

> *Spoiler: current page, not the movie*
> Show
> 
> Maybe Kylo is the "Greedo" Anakin killed in Episode I, and that that Greedo was the son of the Greedo NoName killed before stealing his identity.  He's come back to life with some weird force-shenanigans.


I think you're on the money here, but I am still trying to sort out who is who in Darths and Droids continuity (as opposed to Star Wars continuity, where the one in the PT is canonically the father of the one in the OT). *Spoiler:  for those who haven't yet read comic ep.2178*
Show

We did think shapeshifters were going to be significant again somehow ... Anyway I think the one Anakin killed was called Greedo, and in Ep IV Mr Identity Thief was calling himself Greedo, and then stole the identity of freighter pilot Han Solo. So if Han Solo was the father of the young Greedo who now styles himself as Kylo Ren, they've reversed it from the Star Wars canon and timeframe. Han Solo the shapeshifter must have been much older than he looked.

Also, yes, nice editing and anagram shenanigans. I wonder when the name Nabidalo was introduced? It's got to be an Irregulars invention, right?

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Wait, is Kylo one of the younglings? He seems a bit young.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I'm guessing this has something to do with the scene of Luke attacking Baby Kylo in Episode 8?


*Spoiler*
Show

Do you mean slightly-younger-Kylo? I don't think we ever saw him as a baby...  :Small Confused:

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Do you mean slightly-younger-Kylo? I don't think we ever saw him as a baby...


*Spoiler*
Show

Baby Kylo in the same way first year uni students are Baby Students. Aw look at the ickle first years, they're so young!

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

He has a point.
Also, preventing helmet hair is the best way to use shape-shifting. :Small Cool:

----------


## Fyraltari

> New comic
> 
> He has a point.
> Also, preventing helmet hair is the best way to use shape-shifting.


Also looking like that in the middle of your 60s.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

*Spoiler: So Kylo Ren turns out to be....*
Show

Han Solo's son.


Bravo, just, Bravo.....

----------


## Fyraltari

> *Spoiler: current page, not the movie*
> Show
> 
> Maybe Kylo is the "Greedo" Anakin killed in Episode I, and that that Greedo was the son of the Greedo NoName killed before stealing his identity.  He's come back to life with some weird force-shenanigans.


My hat to you, comrade.  



> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Also, yes, nice editing and anagram shenanigans. I wonder when the name Nabidalo was introduced? It's got to be an Irregulars invention, right?


Pretty sure "Nabidalo" was introduced here, with only "Kylo Ren" being used until then. I guess it took a couple sessions for Sally to find an anagram she liked tolerated.

*Spoiler: The movies, I guess?*
Show

90% sure no-one in _Star Wars_ canon is called Nabidalo, it bugged me from the beginning. It sounds right, probably because it's Naboo and Amidala smashed together. Still props to the Irregular for coming up with it.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Looks like Pete was more right than he realised.

----------


## b_jonas

Fyraltari: it was first mentioned in #1876 in fact.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Fyraltari: it was first mentioned in #1876 in fact.


Oh right, missed that one. Thanks!

----------


## Kantaki

New comic
 :Small Big Grin: 
*Spoiler: The Force Awakens*
Show

 :Small Big Grin: Kylo Ren is the son of Han Solo. :Small Big Grin: 

 :Small Big Grin: 

And that's two things Jim did that are coming back to bite him. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Fyraltari

*Spoiler: Episode VIII*
Show

"I vowed to become more powerful than Luke and kill him. But I tried to soon and had to flee."

Huh. I wonder how they're going to work the _Rashomon_-style flashbacks into this.

Maybe they'll switch the first two around and have both Luke and Kylo remember themselves trying to kill the other one?

----------


## 137beth

When I watched the movie, I had already heard about Han's death, and I found this scene rather boring.

----------


## Thales

I feel like it's appropriate for the Irregulars to have this many-faced character return to his canon identity before the end. Jim is always interesting, but at least he still has one character to come up with his unique schemes with.

----------


## Fyraltari

Huh, I completely forgot that Crimson Dawn or Hondo (and his daughter) have been mentionned before. I wonder where the Irregulars are going to do with this.

*Spoiler: Episode IX, I guess also this movie a little bit, kinda? It's characterization stuff*
Show


I'm a bit miffed they cut Han tenderly caressing Kylo's face as he dies. I figured that was the point of Jim trying to reclaim "Han Solo"'s identity in the last page. Was really looking forward to Memnarch trying to work out how that made sense in the movie, too. And of course, how are they going to explain Han Solo's ghost showing up in _Rise of Skywalker_?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler: Episode IX, I guess also this movie a little bit, kinda? It's characterization stuff*
> Show
> 
> 
> I'm a bit miffed they cut Han tenderly caressing Kylo's face as he dies. I figured that was the point of Jim trying to reclaim "Han Solo"'s identity in the last page. Was really looking forward to Memnarch trying to work out how that made sense in the movie, too. And of course, how are they going to explain Han Solo's ghost showing up in _Rise of Skywalker_?


*Spoiler: Ep. 9*
Show

Clearly he survives and takes on a new identity. Or his spirit killed an ascended Jedi and took their identity.

----------


## 137beth

*Spoiler: Episode IX*
Show

Maybe he got injected with mid-chlorine and so he can force transcend?

----------


## KillianHawkeye

*Spoiler: Episode 9*
Show

Honestly, they could get away with just cutting that part. I really couldn't guess how they're going to resolve Kylo's story with all they've changed about his identity now.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler: Episode 9*
> Show
> 
> Honestly, they could get away with just cutting that part. I really couldn't guess how they're going to resolve Kylo's story with all they've changed about his identity now.


*Spoiler: Episode IX*
Show

Hopefully not with Sally and Pete kissing.

----------


## theangelJean

New comic: it's catch-up time. 

Wonder what they'll come up with.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

This "Never finds a good parking spot" flaw they've given Rey has got to be the funniest tiny addition to any character so far. It explains so much!

----------


## theangelJean

Was it ever mentioned before that the bread contained blue milk?

Why would Rey be suppressing the Force? (If that's what it was supposed to do in the first place ... Was it actually explained, or just implied?)

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Was it ever mentioned before that the bread contained blue milk?


Well, it was described as being blue, at least?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Why would Rey be suppressing the Force? (If that's what it was supposed to do in the first place ... Was it actually explained, or just implied?)


Likely some mixture of going undercover as a normal junker and being incompletely trained by Luke. I'd guess that Pete took some can't of 'can't disguise psionic presence flaw, mitigation: blue milk' flaw and the GM is just getting better at working his flaws into the game.

----------


## Kantaki

New comics

 :Small Big Grin: Han's backstory is epic. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Anonymouswizard

He used large margins, but I'm guessing it's also printed in 30 point text.

----------


## 137beth

I wonder if we'll actually get to see the full backstory Jim made?
*Spoiler: Disney movies*
Show

Maybe using _Solo_?

----------


## Kantaki

> I wonder if we'll actually get to see the full backstory Jim made?
> *Spoiler: Disney movies*
> Show
> 
> Maybe using _Solo_?


There's a link under today's comic.
(In the transcript)

Edit: Jim: "Here it is."

----------


## Gez

Haven't read the Solo spinoff comic yet, but I hope at some point there is a reference to Old Man Henderson.

----------


## Fyraltari

How far into _Solo_ have they come? Memnarch, how long have you kept this from us?

----------


## Kornaki

> but Star Wars didnt have trains before as far as I can recall


Obviously not a fan of the old rogue squadron game.   I remember at least one mission you had to protect a supply train from Imperial bombers.  Thinking about it now thatplot didn't make a ton of sense.

I can only assume they spent some time trying to figure out how to turn this movie into part of the game, realized all their ideas kind of sucked thanks to the working material, and decided to roll with that :)

----------


## Fyraltari

So did they bring the session to a complete stop in the middle of an escape scene just to go over Han's backstory?

Also, Jim came up with all that while he was still playing Kyle Katarn, right? Kind of understand why he didn't do much to save him.

----------


## theangelJean

> So did they bring the session to a complete stop in the middle of an escape scene just to go over Han's backstory?
> 
> Also, Jim came up with all that while he was still playing Kyle Katarn, right? Kind of understand why he didn't do much to save him.


Hmm. Jim spent several sessions working on Han's backstory at the beginning of Ep. IV while Captain Antilles was dead, right? And that was after having played Kyle Katarn, Bria Tharen/Jyn Erso, and Bail Organa? 

Also just noticing that Captain Antilles had an epic backstory of his own. Hmm, I wonder...

Archive trawl time ... 

For Kyle Katarn, the GM asked Jim to make a character with a backstory. He told it to the group. (Next page, when asked for more, he had to start making things up.)
Next session, Jim had prepared a new character...  but we wouldn't meet him until much later... And it turned out he was cribbed directly from the GM.
Since that character couldn't be introduced at that point, the GM gave him the NPC's sheet. He immediately started making modifications .

So I guess Jim had a few models for making a backstory before he got to Greedo/Han, and he had a few chances to practise. Plus he got a couple of great character deaths.

----------


## MinimanMidget

I just finished reading the backstory. That was incredible.

*Spoiler: For anyone who hasn't watched the movie*
Show

It's amazing how many lines they left as is, and how well it works with the blanket excuse that Jim wrote them.

----------


## Gez

Well that was a whole two hundred and thirty four pages of backstory, and no references to Old Man Henderson's backstory. But there was a reference to the Chewbacca Defense, and we find out that Pete learned Latin.

That was quite a huge project to do on the side to reveal by surprise. Makes sense that the nested universe joke was discontinued.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Wait, Corey ran Evangelion? I'm guessing that Sally played Gendo and that the 'lets replay the last two sessions' is referring to End of Eva.

----------


## Kantaki

> Wait, Corey ran Evangelion? I'm guessing that Sally played Gendo and that the 'lets replay the last two sessions' is referring to End of Eva.


Probably something like Annie's campaign (Twilight/Van Helsing).
Started as Voltron(?) and "somehow" (_Sally_) ended as Evangelion.

----------


## Cog

> Started as Voltron(?) and "somehow" (_Sally_) ended as Evangelion.


We've got very specific Voltron references and very specific Eva references now, so that's gotta be it.

Also, Pete has a very limited roster of girl's names that he likes. He's already repeating!

----------


## Fyraltari

About that backstory:
Aren't Annie and Jim living in the U.S. now? Did he send a pdf to everyone?
*Spoiler: Solo plus Sequel Trilogy speculation*
Show

So, I'm guessing Snoke is Maul. Also, I'm going to need to read the Rathar/Saarlac scenes in reverse order now.
Does anyone know why they changed Kessel to Orion III?

----------


## Xihirli

*Spoiler: A-F: An Alphabet Story*
Show

My guess is, because the Kessel Run is now part of Han Solo's backstory, not Han Solo's.

----------


## Kornaki

> *Spoiler: A-F: An Alphabet Story*
> Show
> 
> My guess is, because the Kessel Run is now part of Han Solo's backstory, not Han Solo's.


Your attention to detail is impeccable.

----------


## 137beth

Also, they referred to "Han Solo's son" being murdered the same day Anakin won the pod race way back in Episode IV.

----------


## Fyraltari

Say what you want about the movie, but Enfys Nest's theme slaps.



> *Spoiler: A-F: An Alphabet Story*
> Show
> 
> My guess is, because the Kessel Run is now part of Han Solo's backstory, not Han Solo's.


Ah, thanks. It's confusing to remember what happened to who sometimes.

----------


## Xihirli

Hey nice that's Mutants and Masterminds style phrasing.

*Spoiler: TLJ*
Show

I can't wait to learn Luke's Darth name.
Yoda's was Sain.

Taking bets for what Luke's will be. Dustry? Sertion? Stantaneous? Structor?

----------


## theangelJean

New comic. 



> It feels a bit odd to have someone swinging around a lightsaber without injuring themself


Makes me think ... In the Darths and Droids universe, laser swords are insanely dangerous for those not trained in the Force. Which is eminently reasonable, swords are dangerous for the untrained, laser swords would be so much more so. But for all that everyone has talked up the risk to life and limb, have we actually seen anyone injure themselves with a lightsaber on-screen? I get the feeling that it not been an actual thing in the Star Wars movies up to this point. (I haven't consumed much EU media.)

And if I'm correct and we haven't - it says something about the writing of Da&Dr that we have this constant expectation that someone will maim themselves, to the point where it not happening feels odd, even though that's all we've ever seen.

----------


## Pax1138

> New comic. 
> 
> 
> Makes me think ... In the Darths and Droids universe, laser swords are insanely dangerous for those not trained in the Force. Which is eminently reasonable, swords are dangerous for the untrained, laser swords would be so much more so. But for all that everyone has talked up the risk to life and limb, have we actually seen anyone injure themselves with a lightsaber on-screen? I get the feeling that it not been an actual thing in the Star Wars movies up to this point. (I haven't consumed much EU media.)
> 
> And if I'm correct and we haven't - it says something about the writing of Da&Dr that we have this constant expectation that someone will maim themselves, to the point where it not happening feels odd, even though that's all we've ever seen.


It's the kind of thing that's always said, and is an assumed facet of the setting since forever, but I can't remember anyone ever actually hurting themselves, even in the old EU (which isn't saying a lot as I didn't consume everything, and those that I did were last read loooong ago.)

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Makes me think ... In the Darths and Droids universe, laser swords are insanely dangerous for those not trained in the Force.


And also available in pretty much every bar. Although being incredibly dangerous isn't unusual for the stuff you find there.

In fact laser swords weren't meant to be the iconic weapons of Jedi. If Jim had made a difference decision they could have had the entire order wielding energy maces.

----------


## Fyraltari

> New comic. 
> 
> 
> Makes me think ... In the Darths and Droids universe, laser swords are insanely dangerous for those not trained in the Force. Which is eminently reasonable, swords are dangerous for the untrained, laser swords would be so much more so. But for all that everyone has talked up the risk to life and limb, have we actually seen anyone injure themselves with a lightsaber on-screen? I get the feeling that it not been an actual thing in the Star Wars movies up to this point. (I haven't consumed much EU media.)
> 
> And if I'm correct and we haven't - it says something about the writing of Da&Dr that we have this constant expectation that someone will maim themselves, to the point where it not happening feels odd, even though that's all we've ever seen.


The movies never state at any point that Jedi are the only people who can wield ligtsabers are Force sensitive. The closest they come to is in ANH and RotJ where lightsabers are described as "Jedi weapons" (the Emperor even implies he doesn't use them). ESB shows Han using Luke's to eviscerate a tauntaun (which hardly requires any skill) and RotS shows Grievous wielding four despite being about as Force-sensitive as a particularly enlightened pile of coal (but he has mecanical arms, which would imply that droids could wield lightsabers without issue). Also in TPM Qui-Gon suggests non-Jedi could kill a Jedi and loot the lightsabers, which may imply the possibility of non-Jedi using them as weapons.

In the Original Trilogy lightsabers aren't necessarily presented as the ultimate weapon as no one ever use them to deflect blaster bolts _back_ at the ennemy, lending some credence to  Han's claim that blasters are better weapons.

The idea that only Force-sensitives may use lightsabers safely/efficiently only comes from the EU, as far as I can tell. Probably as a way to explain why more fighters don't use them, especially in video games.

I don't think Disneycanon has really weighted on the issue so far, but the existence, a'd continued appearances, of the Darksaber, a lightsaber that is also a Mandalorian heirloom and status symbol and therefore usually wielded by people with no affiliation to any Force cult whatsoever, makes me think they lean towards (anyone _could_ use a lightsaber). Then again, the Darksaber is an abnormal lightsaber.

----------


## theangelJean

> The movies never state at any point that Jedi are the only people who can wield ligtsabers are Force sensitive. ...
> The idea that only Force-sensitives may use lightsabers safely/efficiently only comes from the EU, as far as I can tell.


Okay, thank you for confirming this concept doesn't come from the movies. I actually thought "Only Jedi can safely wield [lightsabers/laser swords]" was a pure Darths and Droids invention, along with its corollary "Untrained wielders of laser swords will severely injure themselves". Even having it confirmed that the latter never happened in the original trilogy or the prequels, it still _feels_ inevitable now, because of the way the comic has built on the idea since Episode I.

----------


## The Glyphstone

The EU somehow tied it into the Jedi micro-combat precognition, in a way I still don't fully understand. Does seeing the future make you better at wielding a blade without mass or momentum?

----------


## Kantaki

> The EU somehow tied it into the Jedi micro-combat precognition, in a way I still don't fully understand. Does seeing the future make you better at wielding a blade without mass or momentum?


It might help with knowing what not to do.
Where you shouldn't move your blade.
Though I'd expect the telekinesis to be at least as important to not cutting yourself on your glow stick of doom.

----------


## Gez

> The EU somehow tied it into the Jedi micro-combat precognition, in a way I still don't fully understand. Does seeing the future make you better at wielding a blade without mass or momentum?


On that point, the EU just ran with what was in the original Star Wars movie. Remember Luke's training on the Falcon with the little hoverball, when Obi Wan has him deflect shots while blindfolded?

I'd say that lightsabers don't _require_ having Force powers to wield them, but they do require them to become _pertinent_ weapons when everybody else has blasters. So yeah, sure, Jedi can deflect blaster shots with their lightsabers. And that, I think, is both what requires having combat precognition _and_ what makes lightsabers actually useful. Without this capacity, the Jedi knights would be better off with blasters.

One could imagine that after the Great Jedi Purge, there were a lot of lightsabers in circulation, looted from dead Jedi and used by people with no Jedi powers and therefore no special capacity to actually deflect blaster shots coming their way. And that such people who thought they could impress by claiming to know how to wield them when in fact they didn't, helped forge Han Solo's opinion that blasters are better.

----------


## Fyraltari

> One could imagine that after the Great Jedi Purge, there were a lot of lightsabers in circulation, looted from dead Jedi


The vast majority of Jedi having been killed by clone troopers, it seems more likely to me that their lightsabers would have been kept by the Empire. The Death star runs on kyber crystals, after all.

----------


## VoxRationis

> I'd say that lightsabers don't _require_ having Force powers to wield them, but they do require them to become _pertinent_ weapons when everybody else has blasters. So yeah, sure, Jedi can deflect blaster shots with their lightsabers. And that, I think, is both what requires having combat precognition _and_ what makes lightsabers actually useful. Without this capacity, the Jedi knights would be better off with blasters.


This is the explanation that makes the most sense, I think, with what we see in the films (original, prequel, and sequel). Swinging something and keeping it away from one's own body is well within the bounds of normal human capability, but without the Force, you won't be able to do the specific things the Jedi do with a lightsaber and will be stuck holding a glowing melee-only weapon in a setting replete with ranged weapons. One could argue for the usefulness of lightsabers in utility contexts for common soldiers, but at that point, it becomes a question of utility versus cost and availability.

----------


## Laurentio III

> One could argue for the usefulness of lightsabers in utility contexts for common soldiers, but at that point, it becomes a question of utility versus cost and availability.


Lightsabers are a pretty silly weapon if you are not an excellent martial artist, but they do make the best protection against almost everything.
Lightshields should be a thing.
Lightnunchaku, instead, are a crime against humanity.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Lightnunchaku, instead, are a crime against humanity.


Is that two lightsabers connected by a chain, or two handles with a flexible tube of plasma between them?

----------


## Fyraltari

> Lightshields should be a thing.


You mean this?

----------


## Laurentio III

> You mean this?


No, I mean the "vaporizing people with a bull charge" ones.

----------


## Kantaki

> Is that two lightsabers connected by a chain, or two handles with a flexible tube of plasma between them?


Both obviously.  :Small Big Grin:  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Xihirli

> This is the explanation that makes the most sense, I think, with what we see in the films (original, prequel, and sequel). Swinging something and keeping it away from one's own body is well within the bounds of normal human capability, but without the Force, you won't be able to do the specific things the Jedi do with a lightsaber and will be stuck holding a glowing melee-only weapon in a setting replete with ranged weapons. One could argue for the usefulness of lightsabers in utility contexts for common soldiers, but at that point, it becomes a question of utility versus cost and availability.


Which gels with all the movies, but Grievous deflects blaster bolts in Clone Wars.

----------


## The Glyphstone

Is that the Cartoon grevious who is badass, or the movie Greivous who just windmills his sabers around in a circle?

----------


## SirKazum

> Is that two lightsabers connected by a chain, or two handles with a flexible tube of plasma between them?


The first kind are actually light-swordchucks.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> One could argue for the usefulness of lightsabers in utility contexts for common soldiers, but at that point, it becomes a question of utility versus cost and availability.


Which makes me wonder why lightknives aren't a thing. You don't need a whole sword for cutting most things, and a knife with an energy blade would put a vibro-blade to shame.

Actually, I wonder what the younglings' or Yoda's smaller lightsabers would look like when held by a full-size adult? Why do we never see that?

----------


## SirKazum

> Which makes me wonder why lightknives aren't a thing. You don't need a whole sword for cutting most things, and a knife with an energy blade would put a vibro-blade to shame.
> 
> Actually, I wonder what the younglings' or Yoda's smaller lightsabers would look like when held by a full-size adult? Why do we never see that?


I have zero idea from a canon / expanded canon etc. perspective, but putting my worldbuilder hat on, if I had to come up with an excuse, I'd say that getting a stable, contained beam like you see in a lightsaber requires a power concentration that would be sufficient to power a full-size lightsaber. Getting something smaller would require intentionally reducing the range of your beam to less than what your equipment permits. Therefore, since you're paying for the full-size beam in the first place, so to speak, it doesn't make sense to have a smaller blade. No idea if anything in canon contradicts this idea though... if it does, then yeah, why the heck don't we have light-knives, they would be hella cool in a variety of situations.

----------


## The Glyphstone

The EU did feature Lightsaber Shotos, also known as lightdaggers. But they were less combat knives and more offhand parrying blades, or for someone like Yoda who couldn't wield a full-size saber.

----------


## Fyraltari

Courtesy of the H2G2 film.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Courtesy of the H2G2 film.


But what if I want a slice of untoastedd bread?

----------


## VoxRationis

> Which gels with all the movies, but Grievous deflects blaster bolts in Clone Wars.


Grievous cheats. He's been extensively modified with cybernetics, including on a nervous system level, which increases his reflexes. He also uses four lightsabers at the same time, which increases the odds that a given blaster bolt will be parried even if he had no skill whatsoever.




> Which makes me wonder why lightknives aren't a thing. You don't need a whole sword for cutting most things, and a knife with an energy blade would put a vibro-blade to shame.


I think it's probably a matter of resource availability and cost. Lightsaber crystals aren't, say, as rare as Faberge eggs, since every Jedi or Jedi-in-training can be equipped with a lightsaber, but keep in mind that the Jedi are a relatively small organization tied into the high levels of a galaxy-wide government, so they can get a hold of those resources even if, on a broader basis, they're far too rare to be used for consumer goods. And since the crystals are a mineral resource, there's a set and finite amount of them within non-cosmological time scales, so a farsighted organization might make a point to deliberately ration them.

----------


## Pax1138

> Grievous cheats. He's been extensively modified with cybernetics, including on a nervous system level, which increases his reflexes. He also uses four lightsabers at the same time, which increases the odds that a given blaster bolt will be parried even if he had no skill whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's probably a matter of resource availability and cost. Lightsaber crystals aren't, say, as rare as Faberge eggs, since every Jedi or Jedi-in-training can be equipped with a lightsaber, but keep in mind that the Jedi are a relatively small organization tied into the high levels of a galaxy-wide government, so they can get a hold of those resources even if, on a broader basis, they're far too rare to be used for consumer goods. And since the crystals are a mineral resource, there's a set and finite amount of them within non-cosmological time scales, so a farsighted organization might make a point to deliberately ration them.


And a not farsighted organization might hollow out a planet of them to build a Deathstar or two.

----------


## theangelJean

New comic.



> I never looked into any of the specifics of how lightsabers work beyond them needing crystals of some kind, so I'm curious what the reason might be for them always turning off when they're dropped.


I always assumed they had a "only on when pressed" button. Turning them on was always a separate step from unsheathing them, which distinguished them from swords in a visually impressive way. I figured the button required constant contact, rather than being a toggle switch. (Some RL lightsaber toys work exactly that way, probably to save battery.) Now that I think about it, though, that would also mean a lightsaber could never be a thrown weapon - it would turn off in mid-air.

I didn't kill the thread this time! Yay!

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> I always assumed they had a "only on when pressed" button. Turning them on was always a separate step from unsheathing them, which distinguished them from swords in a visually impressive way. I figured the button required constant contact, rather than being a toggle switch. (Some RL lightsaber toys work exactly that way, probably to save battery.) Now that I think about it, though, that would also mean a lightsaber could never be a thrown weapon - it would turn off in mid-air.


Thrown lightsaber is a staple maneuver in older video games, though, and Darth Vader did it at least once in the films (near the end of Return of the Jedi). I think the assumption there is that you have to use The Force to keep the dead man's switch held down; they're already presumably using The Force to guide the saber through the air anyway (and call it back to themselves, in the video games).

----------


## Kornaki

> New comic.
> 
> I always assumed they had a "only on when pressed" button. Turning them on was always a separate step from unsheathing them, which distinguished them from swords in a visually impressive way. I figured the button required constant contact, rather than being a toggle switch. (Some RL lightsaber toys work exactly that way, probably to save battery.) Now that I think about it, though, that would also mean a lightsaber could never be a thrown weapon - it would turn off in mid-air.
> 
> I didn't kill the thread this time! Yay!


You can just use the force to keep the button depressed while it flies to its target.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> New comic.
> 
> I always assumed they had a "only on when pressed" button. Turning them on was always a separate step from unsheathing them, which distinguished them from swords in a visually impressive way. I figured the button required constant contact, rather than being a toggle switch. (Some RL lightsaber toys work exactly that way, probably to save battery.) Now that I think about it, though, that would also mean a lightsaber could never be a thrown weapon - it would turn off in mid-air.
> 
> I didn't kill the thread this time! Yay!


IIRC in the Legends canon lightsabers by default turned off if you released the power button, but there was a switch or something you could toggle to lock the blade on. I haven't engaged with any of the Disney canon EU, so I don't know if there's a similar concept there.

----------


## Aeson

> Thrown lightsaber is a staple maneuver in older video games, though, and Darth Vader did it at least once in the films (near the end of Return of the Jedi). I think the assumption there is that you have to use The Force to keep the dead man's switch held down; they're already presumably using The Force to guide the saber through the air anyway (and call it back to themselves, in the video games).


Vader presumably called his lightsaber back with the Force in _Return of the Jedi_; at any rate, he certainly never bent over to pick it up off the floor or anything like that.

----------


## 137beth

> Hey nice that's Mutants and Masterminds style phrasing.
> 
> *Spoiler: TLJ*
> Show
> 
> I can't wait to learn Luke's Darth name.
> Yoda's was Sain.
> 
> Taking bets for what Luke's will be. Dustry? Sertion? Stantaneous? Structor?


Huh, I just realized the meaning of "Darth Sain" in the comic now.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Vader presumably called his lightsaber back with the Force in _Return of the Jedi_; at any rate, he certainly never bent over to pick it up off the floor or anything like that.


True, but he at least seems to walk over to where it fell rather than pulling it back from afar like Kyle Katarn in the SW Jedi Knight games.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Vader presumably called his lightsaber back with the Force in _Return of the Jedi_; at any rate, he certainly never bent over to pick it up off the floor or anything like that.





> True, but he at least seems to walk over to where it fell rather than pulling it back from afar like Kyle Katarn in the SW Jedi Knight games.


I mean, what's to say that Vader doesn't just have a second lightsaber?

----------


## Gez

> Lightsabers are a pretty silly weapon if you are not an excellent martial artist, but they do make the best protection against almost everything.
> Lightshields should be a thing.


Which is why Ulysses 31 is the superior fantasy space opera franchise.
*Spoiler: Big image*
Show


Look at that: a lightsword that is _also_ a blaster, and a light shield. Plus a badass armor with a helmet that looks like a lion's head. And, instead of just an old evil wizard emperor? Please! Ulysses fight against literal gods. The Jedi got nothing on the King of Space Ithaca.

----------


## SirKazum

> I mean, what's to say that Vader doesn't just have a second lightsaber?


I don't think they know about second lightsaber, Anonymouswizard...

----------


## Kornaki

I airways thought vader walking over to his lightsaber was a show of dominance.  He's allegedly unarmed,  but he just casually strolls over. This isn't a desperate battle,  it's just another day at the office.

----------


## Taevyr

> I don't think they know about second lightsaber, Anonymouswizard...


What about Lightsaber shoto's?

----------


## theangelJean

Corellia was just referenced in comic. I can't tell if memnarch is being deliberately vague in recognising the word Corellian "from somewhere" or if they're just as forgetful as I am. I had to Google to check if I only knew it from SWTOR, or if I really had seen it only four weeks ago... (The August 14 comic was the one that linked here - I wonder if anyone noticed when it was first published in late July?)

I'm still fairly sure I've been to Corellia in SWTOR, though. And I don't know if the phrase "Corellian Syndicate" comes from there or from Da&Dr.

----------


## SirKazum

> Corellia was just referenced in comic. I can't tell if memnarch is being deliberately vague in recognising the word Corellian "from somewhere" or if they're just as forgetful as I am. I had to Google to check if I only knew it from SWTOR, or if I really had seen it only four weeks ago... (The August 14 comic was the one that linked here - I wonder if anyone noticed when it was first published in late July?)
> 
> I'm still fairly sure I've been to Corellia in SWTOR, though. And I don't know if the phrase "Corellian Syndicate" comes from there or from Da&Dr.


Off the top of my head, Corellia is a well-known planet in official SW lore. I _think_ that's where Han Solo comes from (don't know where exactly it was established). Also, a "Corellian Corvette" was a popular vessel, don't remember where it was used in the movies but I think it was. I know it best from the X-Wing / Tie-Fighter flight sim games though.

----------


## Taevyr

Corellia's a pretty old part of the EU and Hal's home planet there, but I mostly know of it because it's the last planet of SWTOR's original class stories, right before Ilum.

----------


## Gez

> Corellia was just referenced in comic. I can't tell if memnarch is being deliberately vague in recognising the word Corellian "from somewhere" or if they're just as forgetful as I am. I had to Google to check if I only knew it from SWTOR, or if I really had seen it only four weeks ago... (The August 14 comic was the one that linked here - I wonder if anyone noticed when it was first published in late July?)
> 
> I'm still fairly sure I've been to Corellia in SWTOR, though. And I don't know if the phrase "Corellian Syndicate" comes from there or from Da&Dr.


The Millennium Falcon is canonically a Corellian Engineering Corporation YT-1300 Light Transport, something I learned from all the time I spent playing through the whole X-Wing series.

----------


## Aeson

"Corellian" - and thus the implied concept of a "Corellia" - first appeared in Star Wars in _A New Hope_, when Han  boasted that "I've outrun Imperial starships - not the local bulk  cruisers, mind you; I'm talking about the big Corellian ships, now"  while he and Obi-Wan were discussing passage to Alderaan in the Mos  Eisley cantina. I don't recall if Han himself was ever identified as  being Corellian in the Original Trilogy, but he was certainly accepted  as such in the EU very early on.




> Also, a  "Corellian Corvette" was a popular vessel, don't remember where it was  used in the movies but I think it was.


The term "Corellian  corvette" was not to my recollection used in the movies. However,  "Corellian Corvette" is one of the more common names that EU material  (particularly older EU material, though that may also describe the type  of ship as a "Rebel Blockade Runner;" more recent EU material might use  some part of "Corellian Engineering Corporation CR90 Corvette" instead)  applied to the type of ship which carried Princess Leia in the opening  scene of _A New Hope_; at least one more such vessel appears in _Return of the Jedi_ as part of the Rebel fleet attacking the Death Star at Endor. _Tantive IV_, the specific corvette featured in _A New Hope_, reappears at the end of _Rogue One_ and - apparently, despite Darth Vader ordering its destruction during the events of _A New Hope_ - as part of the fleet that shows up to attack Exegol at the end of _The Rise of Skywalker_.

The  films contain at least two other types of ship, both featured in the  Prequel Trilogy, which could fairly reasonably be referred to as  "Corellian Corvettes" but which usually aren't what is meant when that  term is used:
- Most reasonably, the Corellian Engineering  Corporation CR70 Corvette, a predecessor of the CR90, which featured as  Senator Bail Organa's personal starship at the end of _Revenge of the Sith_.
- Slightly less reasonably, the Corellian Engineering Corporation _Consular_-class  Cruiser, sometimes also called a "Republic Cruiser," which featured as  the type of ship which carried Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi to the  Trade Federation command ship over Naboo. This type of ship is  canonically unarmed in the standard pre-Clone Wars configuration, so  "cruiser" is probably meant to indicate something more along the lines  of a pleasure cruiser than the warship classification; given its size  and apparent similarity to the CR70 and CR90, a warship version of it  would most likely be used for the same roles as these and thus should  most appropriately be classified similarly, so it could therefore could  be termed a corvette - though Star Wars (especially EU Star Wars) is not  especially consistent with its classification conventions.

----------


## SirKazum

Wow, amazing reply! And yeah, I think the "Corellian Corvette" from the old flight-sim games is specifically the same model of ship as the Tantive IV.

----------


## 137beth

> I'm not really sure what Snoke and Kylo count as, if they're Sith or just something else.


There was only one Sith, and that was Anakin.  

Unless you're talking about the movie.

----------


## Xihirli

> There was only one Sith, and that was Anakin.


But the Sith are just a legend!

----------


## Metastachydium

> But the Sith are just a legend!


_He_ was the Legend!!

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> There was only one Sith, and that was Anakin.  
> 
> Unless you're talking about the movie.


In the comic Anakin claims the title of Sith, but really so could any Jedi who wanted to. IIRC D&D doesn't have the Light Side/Dark Side distinction, and thus no real distinction between Jedi and Sith. Anakin was, as far as we know, the first Jedi to claim the title, but you could argue that's just him snapping after everything and that the 'real' Sith are just the Jedi equivalent of Boogeymen.

Kylo is just a Jedi/Force User (I'm not sure if D&D restricts the title to official Cheddar* Monks). *Spoiler*
Show

As for Snoke I've forgotten if D&D has established him as a force user, but he gets the same deal.


As for the movies *Spoiler*
Show

Kylo is a Dark Jedi and Knight of Ren, which I believe are two different things and not mutually exclusive. If you take TFA era commentary I believe that Snoke is not a Sith but his order, if any, are unknown. By Resurrection of the Emperor he's a Sith in all but name, and possibly a Sith in name as well.


On that note *Spoiler: Comic Speculation, Movie Spoilers*
Show

The comic's Knights of Ren, force users or not? I don't remember them using it explicitly on screen, and they can easily be turned into Kylo's bodyguards or personal hit squad.



* Which after all these years still sounds nothing like Jedi.

----------


## theangelJean

> Cheddar* Monks





> * Which after all these years still sounds nothing like Jedi.


I'm not sure where you're from, but in some Australian accents they're reasonably similar. Probably because we don't pronounce our "I" as either [[aɪ]] or [[ɑɪ]], but with more of an elongated schwa at the start a more closed version of the back vowel, making probably more like [[ʌˑɪ]]; and we don't bother with the rhotic "ar" so we get another vaguely-open back vowel instead. So we get [[ˈdʒe̝dʌˑɪ]] as a half-rhyme with [[ˈtʃe̝dʌ]]. (Apologies to those whose devices won't display IPA.)

edit: some Australian accents; and I'm not a phonologist so I had to revise this a few times.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I'm not sure where you're from, but in some Australian accents they're reasonably similar. Probably because we don't pronounce our "I" as either [[aɪ]] or [[ɑɪ]], but with more of an elongated schwa at the start a more closed version of the back vowel, making probably more like [[ʌˑɪ]]; and we don't bother with the rhotic "ar" so we get another vaguely-open back vowel instead. So we get [[ˈdʒe̝dʌˑɪ]] as a half-rhyme with [[ˈtʃe̝dʌ]]. (Apologies to those whose devices won't display IPA.)
> 
> edit: some Australian accents; and I'm not a phonologist so I had to revise this a few times.


I live about 150 miles from Cheddar Gorge. While you could mangle the first syllable to be close enough, I've been to where the cheese comes from and there they don't rhyme.

Like, I legitimately spent years wondering what the bloody cheese that supposedly sounds like Jedi is. You might think it's obvious from the comic, but I'm fairly certain that Jim is not just the kind of player who misremembered names, I'm fairly certain he's the kind of player who'll use a silly term to mess with the GM 

And it might be ten to seven, but I've had a lot of trouble sleeping and could murder an IPA.

----------


## theangelJean

> I live about 150 miles from Cheddar Gorge. While you could mangle the first syllable to be close enough, I've been to where the cheese comes from and there they don't rhyme.


Okay, now I really want to know what distinction you're making. 

Here's "Cheddar" as pronounced by a local starting at 1:25, and an Australian in the rest of the video - yes, we completely mangle it, but we're using the same phonemes. 

Here's Jedi as pronounced by Alec Guinness starting at 0:17,  

as pronounced by Frank Oz as Yoda starting at 0:51,

and in a similar Australian accent to the above. 

I can hear the difference between the English, American and Australian accents. But other than the voiced vs unvoiced consonants (CH vs J), I can't hear the distinction within the same accent. Is it a different vowel?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I'm not on WiFi, so I'll watch later, but in my experience it really is a different vowel sound* (with cheddar having the shorter vowel). I get now that it's an accent dependent joke, but at least for me it wasn't obvious for years.

* I am not a linguist, this is just guesswork from what I regularly hear.

----------


## b_jonas

> Like, I legitimately spent years wondering what the bloody cheese that supposedly sounds like Jedi is. You might think it's obvious from the comic,


Was it really years?  Jim says a type of cheese in #3, and Cheddar first in #75 then several times later.  That's only half a year.

Though on the other hand, I still have no idea if Padawan being a woven rug and the Sarlacc being a buttered snail are supposed to be puns and what they refer to.  Plus of course there are lots of strip titles that are obscure puns that refer to song lyrics, and I likely don't understand half of them.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Was it really years?  Jim says a type of cheese in #3, and Cheddar first in #75 then several times later.  That's only half a year.


And I was still wondering what cheese Jedi sounds like, because round these parts it doesn't sound like cheddar. To me it just read like Jim trying to mess with the GM by using a random word.

----------


## Rodin

I can't even mangle the "Ch" sound into a "J" listening to the Australian example.  In all the videos it's clear people are saying Cheddar and Jedi.  I get what they were going for and it works as a "Jim is being weird/dumb" joke, but the pronunciation never worked for me either.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I'm not sure where you're from, but in some Australian accents they're reasonably similar.


It might just be monophtonghization in _jedi_ producing the same syllable as the terminal one in _cheddar_ (if pronounced in a non-rhotic fashion). I'm no expert on Australian dialects and sociolects, however, so I'm not sure how common smoothing is thereabouts.




> I can't even mangle the "Ch" sound into a "J"


I mean, those two affricates form a voiced/voiceless pair. They couldn't be more similar while still distinct.

----------


## theangelJean

> It might just be monophtonghization in _jedi_ producing the same syllable as the terminal one in _cheddar_ (if pronounced in a non-rhotic fashion). I'm no expert on Australian dialects and sociolects, however, so I'm not sure how common smoothing is thereabouts.


That's similar to what I was trying to describe a couple posts ago, until Anonymouswizard said the difference was the first syllable.
edit: ahh, I wasn't thinking of smoothing, just the rhyming parts of the words up until the ɪ in Jedi. We have some smoothing but not usually for the "I" sound.



> I mean, those two affricates form a voiced/voiceless pair. They couldn't be more similar while still distinct.


Exactly! Well, almost, "ch" is usually aspirated as well in English. If you whisper "jump" you _almost_ get "chump" - bit more air in the shushing part of the sound, and you're there. In theory. "Jed-" and "Ched-" should be just as similar. 

In practice, given how many different pronunciations of "ch" there are in different languages, I guess I shouldn't be surprised if people form them differently in different dialects as well. Or that there are different vowels to go with them, for that matter.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> until Anonymouswizard said the difference was the first syllable.


Citation please.

----------


## theangelJean

> until Anonymouswizard said the difference was the first syllable.





> Citation please.


Ooh! I misinterpreted you, then: 




> While you could mangle the first syllable to be close enough, I've been to where the cheese comes from and there they don't rhyme.


Right then. I thought you meant that the first syllables were not close enough to even rhyme, unless you mangled them. If it's the "ar" vs the "aye" you're talking about, then no, they don't rhyme. But in General Australian I'd call it close enough to be a half-rhyme, like "clothe" and "close" - same starting vowel sound, different ending. And we elongate the "a" sound in "Cheddar" a tiny bit to make up for dropping the "r".

----------


## Gez

"Cheddar" and "jedi" are not supposed to sound the same, it was a running gag that Jim would provide spontaneous explanation that made no sense. Like "droid" -> "butler", and who can forget "tuna booze oil"?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

But this raises the question: was Anakin the Leicester Monk? Because Leicester cheese is red (orangish) while Cheddar cheese is white (yellowish).

----------


## Metastachydium

> But this raises the question: was Anakin the Leicester Monk?


My guess would be Livarot (take that, France!).

----------


## Gez

If you want an evil cheese for the Sith, I suggest casu marzu.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

I've still never heard the word "cheddar" pronounced with a hard I sound the way Jedi always is...  :Small Confused:

----------


## theangelJean

> "Cheddar" and "jedi" are not supposed to sound the same, it was a running gag that Jim would provide spontaneous explanation that made no sense. Like "droid" -> "butler", and who can forget "tuna booze oil"?


Yes, but part of the joke was that tuna booze oil was Ben mishearing the GM describing them stepping on "to Naboo's soil" and Jim providing spontaneous explanation - that made no sense for the situation, but was a plausible description of "tuna booze oil". I've had to go back many times to check that it wasn't Jim who misheard, but it's got to be Ben, as there are only two players plus the GM at that point and they all speak in that panel. In the case of "Jedi" Ben repeated it correctly and it was Jim who misheard. 

Now I'm wondering if he misheard it as "Cheddar-y".

----------


## 137beth

Is the D&D site down for other people?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Is the D&D site down for other people?


I'm not having any problems.

----------


## theangelJean

New comic: something is definitely up.

Am I misremembering, or did Rey remove a part from a mechanism not long ago?

----------


## Aeson

> New comic: something is definitely up.
> 
> Am I misremembering, or did Rey remove a part from a mechanism not long ago?


She did, yes.

----------


## SirKazum

> New comic: something is definitely up.
> 
> Am I misremembering, or did Rey remove a part from a mechanism not long ago?


Hmm... Is it the thing that allows the new Peace Moon to do the time-traveling beam thing, and it's now giving Rey some sort of time-based power by being in her possession? (Also, the fact that I barely remember the movie makes the comic exciting, I don't really know where this scene is going!)

I'm curious about the title of today's strip though... it couldn't be Tippett as in Benjamin Tippett, from the Titanium Physicists podcast?  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Anonymouswizard

*Spoiler: Movie stuff, spoilers*
Show

I'm guessing this will eventually be related to the entire Dyad thing from episodes VIII and IX? Probably justified by them both having some mind link advantage but Rey's Willpower being higher or the like.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> *Spoiler: Movie stuff, spoilers*
> Show
> 
> I'm guessing this will eventually be related to the entire Dyad thing from episodes VIII and IX? Probably justified by them both having some mind link advantage but Rey's Willpower being higher or the like.


*Spoiler*
Show

Well I'm HOPING they have a better explanation for this part than the movies did, because it didn't really make sense there.

----------


## b_jonas

> I'm curious about the title of today's strip though... it couldn't be Tippett as in Benjamin Tippett, from the Titanium Physicists podcast?


Based on an internet search, my guess is Phil Tippett, who worked on the original Star Wars films.

----------


## theangelJean

So it's a reference to stop-motion animation?

----------


## SirKazum

> Based on an internet search, my guess is Phil Tippett, who worked on the original Star Wars films.





> So it's a reference to stop-motion animation?


That makes a *lot* more sense, yeah.

----------


## Fyraltari

Erso, from beyond the grave:

"Just read the damn manual! I even made it a PowerPoint presentation to be more efficient!"

----------


## Anonymouswizard

To be fair, volume one of the manual was lost when the original Peace Moon blew up. The others just might not cover this.

----------


## Taevyr

> To be fair, volume one of the manual was lost when the original Peace Moon blew up. The others just might not cover this.


Worse, the others _seem_ to cover it when you look at the table of contents, but whenever you turn to the relevant slide it assumes you already know how to solve it by way of volume 1, and simply tells you to consult it in case of doubt.

Additionally, for some reason, each line in the table of contents is a separate animation, and the ppt. file _refuses_ to be opened anywhere but the first slide.

----------


## Rodin

> Worse, the others _seem_ to cover it when you look at the table of contents, but whenever you turn to the relevant slide it assumes you already know how to solve it by way of volume 1, and simply tells you to consult it in case of doubt.
> 
> Additionally, for some reason, each line in the table of contents is a separate animation, and the ppt. file _refuses_ to be opened anywhere but the first slide.


I had a programming textbook like this.  Chapter 1 built a couple of small subroutines, on the same sort of level of "Hello World" but at the level you'd expect for a 'Welcome to object oriented programming' textbook.

Chapter 2 used exclusively programs that called upon those subroutines.  Chapter 3 used programs that called upon the programs from Chapter 2.  By the time you got to Chapter 34....

I've never seen such a badly designed text.  Utterly impossible to learn anything from, and completely worthless as a reference manual since understanding any example program required you to start from Chapter 1.

It's no wonder I decided programming was for the birds and went into tech support instead.  The downside is getting calls about "metachronic instability" a mere 5 minutes before my shift ends.

----------


## theangelJean

... Is that you (as an NPC) in the current comic? It did strike me as I read it yesterday, and now that you've posted...

----------


## Metastachydium

> It's no wonder I decided programming was for the birds


but only the Corvids really enjoy it.




> ... Is that you (as an NPC) in the current comic? It did strike me as I read it yesterday, and now that you've posted...


Well, given that the the good lieutenant Rodin is unlikely to be _on_ for long I hope otherwise.

----------


## Rodin

Hey, nice! I hadnt even noticed that.  If its a reference to me, its one Im not aware of.  Maybe my name got stuck in someones head while they were coming up with a disposable NPC name? Comic went up before I posted though so seems unlikely.

----------


## Metastachydium

Interesting fact: Lieutenant Rodinon is apparently the canonical name of that bit character in the movies.

----------


## SirKazum

> Interesting fact: Lieutenant Rodinon is apparently the canonical name of that bit character in the movies.


Yeah, from what little I know, the comic tends to be very faithful to the source material when it comes to names, _especially_ for bit characters. With some obvious exceptions, such as Han Solo and a lot of the PC party in the Rogue One comic. But random people you see in passing once? You know how Star Wars is with that, so of course the names are right there if you know where to look.

----------


## Thales

I have not seen the movie, but it seems kind of bizarre that the whole planet/moon explodes from what seems like a fairly minor attack. The comic is having a whole fairly complicated explanation of why it... does something that looks like that, but I can't help but feel that in the film it's just Star Wars' commitment to all of a superweapon exploding.

----------


## Xihirli

Wait... who's playing Snap Wexley? Why are his balloons white?

----------


## Pax1138

> Wait... who's playing Snap Wexley? Why are his balloons white?


I was assuming it was Sally for some reason.  Did she run the previous Evangelion campaign?  That'd tie in with a weird world destruction.

Honestly, this "movie", I'm having a hard time remember who alls playing who all.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Wait... who's playing Snap Wexley? Why are his balloons white?


Sally is.

This is what she's complaining about (I think).
No wait, Vader was played by Annie.

----------


## Keltest

> I have not seen the movie, but it seems kind of bizarre that the whole planet/moon explodes from what seems like a fairly minor attack. The comic is having a whole fairly complicated explanation of why it... does something that looks like that, but I can't help but feel that in the film it's just Star Wars' commitment to all of a superweapon exploding.


*Spoiler: In the film*
Show

In the actual film, they basically just rehashed the trench run, up to and including the chain reaction. Theoretically, what happened is the base ate the energy of the star and is currently preparing for another shot with all that energy, so they blew up the systems that let it contain the energy without just erupting back into a star centered on the planet.

----------


## Fyraltari

Ooh, I can't wait to see their take on that scene.

----------


## memnarch

I have little time to spend posting in the thread (or the forums) these days, but I just wished to say thanks everyone for making it easier to continue avoiding movie knowledge with the spoiler boxes!

(I'm still surprised and befuddled at how long this Episode went and just how abrupt it ended)

----------


## Fyraltari

*Spoiler: today's page*
Show

Luke is Rey's father? Of course, that's what they're doing! How does this comic keep surprising me with things that make so much sense?





> I have little time to spend posting in the thread (or the forums) these days, but I just wished to say thanks everyone for making it easier to continue avoiding movie knowledge with the spoiler boxes!
> 
> (I'm still surprised and befuddled at how long this Episode went and just how abrupt it ended)


I think this is a pretty clear example of the chance of medium really impacting the pacing. The dialog-heavy nature of the comic really slows things down and it is very evident here. The ending of the movie feels much more natural than the comic's.

With that said, brace yourself, because given what they have to work with, the last two episodes are going to be something to behold.

----------


## SirKazum

Hah, memnarch's comments in the comics are really a treat. Revisiting the baffled reactions of someone who's seeing this stuff for the first time after all these years really takes me back. And I love the speculation about what the original movie might be like based on the Darths & Droids treatment. Needless to say, I'm very much looking forward to the next two Episodes, both for what the comic will make out of them, and for how memnarch will react to that  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Anonymouswizard

*Spoiler: Film spoilers*
Show

Are we going to get an increasingly improbable sequence of parentage reveals? Is Lando Calrissian actually Finn's father? Is C-3PO really the mother of BB-8? Is Kylo the secret heir to the Gunray business empire?

Probably not. I'm more interested to see what the justification for Luke tossing the lightsaber off the cliff is. Also to see if Ben is playing Holdo next movie because IIRC Chewie gets very little to do.


Also time for the campaign notes and likely confirmation of Neon Voltron Evangelion, featuring Sally as Gendo. Maybe we'll find out the GM's name, perhaps it's Reginald.

----------


## 137beth

> *Spoiler: Film spoilers*
> Show
> 
> Are we going to get an increasingly improbable sequence of parentage reveals? Is Lando Calrissian actually Finn's father? Is C-3PO really the mother of BB-8? Is Kylo the secret heir to the Gunray business empire?
> 
> Probably not. I'm more interested to see what the justification for Luke tossing the lightsaber off the cliff is. Also to see if Ben is playing Holdo next movie because IIRC Chewie gets very little to do.
> 
> 
> Also time for the campaign notes and likely confirmation of Neon Voltron Evangelion, featuring Sally as Gendo. Maybe we'll find out the GM's name, perhaps it's Reginald.


*Spoiler: Episode VII*
Show

IIRC, when the cast list was first announced, some people speculated that Finn would be Lando's son.

----------


## Xihirli

*Spoiler*
Show

I want EVERYONE Rey meets to say she's their daughter.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler: Episode VII*
> Show
> 
> IIRC, when the cast list was first announced, some people speculated that Finn would be Lando's son.


*Spoiler*
Show

Yeah, I started with the most plausible one. Still not convinced the comic won't go for that angle.





> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I want EVERYONE Rey meets to say she's their daughter.


*Spoiler: Episode IX*
Show

I want to see that version of the Rey/Kylo conversation in Episode IX,  after Rey force drains the shuttle.

'Thirty years ago I assumed the identity of a woman named Mara Jade and seduced Luke Skywalker, Nute Gunray revealed to me that the baby I put up for adoption was taken in by Princess Organa...'

Bonus points if they can make this all Qui-Gon's fault.

----------


## Fyraltari

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I want EVERYONE Rey meets to say she's their daughter.





> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Yeah, I started with the most plausible one. Still not convinced the comic won't go for that angle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: Episode IX*
> ...


*Spoiler: Epsiode IX*
Show

Rey and Kylo have a big ol' French kiss scene, so if we could avoid having them be close relatives, that'd be neat.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler: Epsiode IX*
> Show
> 
> Rey and Kylo have a big ol' French kiss scene, so if we could avoid having them be close relatives, that'd be neat.


*Spoiler*
Show

Look, there is absolutely nothing weird about Kylo kissing Rey.

----------


## Metastachydium

> *Spoiler: Epsiode IX*
> Show
> 
> Rey and Kylo have a big ol' French kiss scene, so if we could avoid having them be close relatives, that'd be neat.


Eh, you shouldn't worry about that. He'll turn out to *Spoiler*
Show

be Rey's father*Spoiler*
Show

's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.

 Obviously.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Eh, you shouldn't worry about that. He'll turn out to *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> be Rey's father*Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
> 
>  Obviously.


What would that make them?

----------


## Taevyr

> *Spoiler: Epsiode IX*
> Show
> 
> Rey and Kylo have a big ol' French kiss scene, so if we could avoid having them be close relatives, that'd be neat.


*Spoiler*
Show

To be fair, it wouldn't be a first for the main movies, and not even that surprising considering Abrams started out by simply retreading/revamping said movies

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> What would that make them?


Absolutely nothing, which is what you're about to become!

----------


## SirKazum

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I want EVERYONE Rey meets to say she's their daughter.


*Spoiler*
Show

I think that would be brilliant, and a great twist on the whole hullaballoo around Rey's family origin. Rather in keeping with the comic's style of humor too.

Edit: "Even freakin' _Palpatine_ is saying I'm his granddaughter? This joke is going too far!"

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## MinimanMidget

Well that was...abrupt. No campaign notes for either the GM or Sally, a 2 year hiatus with no explanation on either end, and we're right back into it. This page is mostly all the GM, so hopefully the other characters are as disoriented as I am when they get a chance to talk.

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## The Glyphstone

Yeah I was looking forward to the campaign notes.

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## Anonymouswizard

> Well that was...abrupt. No campaign notes for either the GM or SallyCorey, a 2 year hiatus with no explanation on either end, and we're right back into it. This page is mostly all the GM, so hopefully the other characters are as disoriented as I am when they get a chance to talk.


But there's always been a 2 year hiatus between campaigns, why would they need to explain it?

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## theangelJean

They do tend to explain what everyone has been doing in the two years in between, and why there was a break, but not always in the first strip of the new episode.

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## VoxRationis

Missing a GM notes page is unusual, though.

Ooh, boy, I'm looking forward to the gang's take on

*Spoiler: Not really much of a spoiler, but memnarch might not want to see this*
Show

the gravity bombers and questionable tactics of both sides in the ensuing fight.

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## Kantaki

Huh. New campaign already?
Interlude feels shorter this time.

*Spoiler: Episode VIII*
Show

At least this should be less... _frustrating_ than the actual movie.

Just those bombers are...
 :Small Sigh: Fine, the good guys have no money, but those piles of junk?
Come on, couldn't you dig out an old Y-Wing or three?
At least those would've made it near the target.
Heck, a couple of Ewoks with slingshots would've performed better.
At least they wouldn't have blown themselves up.

Not that I'd call it a _bad_ movie, mind you.
Not even a bad Star Wars story.
Just not a good main episode.

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## The Glyphstone

Who wants to bet that Jim and Annie will have a baby now?

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## theangelJean

Hmm.

I haven't actually watched the last two movies so I have no idea how that would fit in.

I'd put it at 50:50.

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## VoxRationis

> Hmm.
> 
> I haven't actually watched the last two movies so I have no idea how that would fit in.
> 
> I'd put it at 50:50.


Well, whether Jim and Annie have a baby is not necessarily related to whether any characters they play have a literal or figurative child together. I think the idea is that it seems the logical next milestone in their relationship.

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## The Glyphstone

Pretty much. Darths has been going on so long that the lives of the metafictional players have become a story in and of themselves, entirely separate from the campaign.

And poor Pete, the GM is really just rubbing the salt in at this point.

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## VoxRationis

One has to love the description "imposingly begreebled."

Tuesday edit: Now that's an unfair ruling. Jim the player will never genuinely convince Ben the player that Jim's character is actually Snoke, because Ben the player knows that that's not the case.

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## theangelJean

Had to look up the pun memnarch is talking about in yesterday's comic. But I was never allowed to watch the channel with Rocky & Bullwinkle when I was younger.

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## Fyraltari

For the record, the mini-hologram technology was never lost.

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## Anonymouswizard

> For the record, the mini-hologram technology was never lost.


Yes, but that's less handheld and more an optional extra on your camel.

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## Kantaki

New comic

Right. Annie was the crazy one when it comes to driving. :Small Eek: 
Didn't she actually wreck her car in Episode I? :Small Big Grin: 
(At least _some_ damage was heavily implied. What with her coming in and going "Hey, sorry I'm late. Car trouble. By the way, I had a idea how to win the pod race. Oh, and could one of you guys drive me home?)

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## Pax1138

Reminds me of the old X-Wing novels that would go into great detail about how the pilots would adjust their ailerons or stand on the rudder pedal, etc.  Still wildly nonsensical, of course, but at least they weren't calling things brakes and clutches.  :Small Big Grin:

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## theangelJean

I was actually wondering if they were still in atmosphere - that Peace Moon is planet-sized. But the atmospheric halo is deliberately visible in the shots, so in sci-fi terms that puts them in "space", right?

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## Fyraltari

> I was actually wondering if they were still in atmosphere - that Peace Moon is planet-sized. But the atmospheric halo is deliberately visible in the shots, so in sci-fi terms that puts them in "space", right?


This isn't taking place at the Peace Moon, they're in space above the planet the Resistance used as a base.

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## Gez

> I was actually wondering if they were still in atmosphere - that Peace Moon is planet-sized. But the atmospheric halo is deliberately visible in the shots, so in sci-fi terms that puts them in "space", right?


Space is not actually a vacuum in Star Wars.

Remember when the Falcon landed in a cavern in an asteroid (and it was actually the maw of a space worm) and they got out of the ship in plain clothes, just with a little breather apparatus? And there were mynocks in there? And the mynocks have wings that they flap?

Plus, lasers are visible, sound travels, and the way starfighters move just wouldn't make sense without a non-vacuum medium. And, of course, there's the Force that binds the entire galaxy together and it needs a medium too.

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## Fyraltari

> there's the Force that binds the entire galaxy together and it needs a medium too.


Why would it?

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## Keltest

> Space is not actually a vacuum in Star Wars.
> 
> Remember when the Falcon landed in a cavern in an asteroid (and it was actually the maw of a space worm) and they got out of the ship in plain clothes, just with a little breather apparatus? And there were mynocks in there? And the mynocks have wings that they flap?
> 
> Plus, lasers are visible, sound travels, and the way starfighters move just wouldn't make sense without a non-vacuum medium. And, of course, there's the Force that binds the entire galaxy together and it needs a medium too.


In spite of the name, "lasers" usually are plasma based weaponry.

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## Gez

> Why would it?


Because it's made of microscopic lifeforms...  :Small Sigh:

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## Fyraltari

> Because it's made of microscopic lifeforms...


No, it isn't. Midi-chlorians are an intermediary between people and the Force ("they tell us the will of the Force"), not its origin.

And even if so, that wouldn't necessitate for space to be full of something.

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## Metastachydium

> No, it isn't. Midi-chlorians are an intermediary between people and the Force ("they tell us the will of the Force"), not its origin.
> 
> And even if so, that wouldn't necessitate for space to be full of something.


But (and bear with me), what if the will of the force is propagated by the Midichlorian Railgun, i.e. an unbroken chain of midichlorians passing along tiny scrolls?

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## SirKazum

> But (and bear with me), what if the will of the force is propagated by the Midichlorian Railgun, i.e. an unbroken chain of midichlorians passing along tiny scrolls?


I was going to reply with a SW sequels meme (you probably know which one it is) but in this thread that would be considered spoilers, so...

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## Gez

> No, it isn't. Midi-chlorians are an intermediary between people and the Force ("they tell us the will of the Force"), not its origin.


I was thinking of the Whills, which are even smaller and are in everything.

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## Kantaki

New comic

Those bombers are great. If you can get your enemies to use them.

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## Keltest

*Spoiler*
Show

Good lord did I ever hate these bombers. What happened to the y-wings? Why would you ever design a ship like these? Its aggressively bad design.

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## Gez

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Good lord did I ever hate these bombers. What happened to the y-wings? Why would you ever design a ship like these? Its aggressively bad design.


Technology in Star Wars seems to be regressing rather than progressing. The prequels were higher technology than the original trilogy, and things like the Old Republic were even higher technology. So I figure the trend continued and people make these ugly bomber things because they forgot how to build better designs like the B-Wing and Y-Wing.

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## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Good lord did I ever hate these bombers. What happened to the y-wings? Why would you ever design a ship like these? Its aggressively bad design.


*Spoiler*
Show

My guess? They're primarily designed for atmospheric or low or it operations against ground based targets. Probably something you park in orbit for weeks or months after gaining control of the orbitals but before you've pacified the surface.

They're probably old Imperial stock the Resistance got running when they realised the First Order was on their way but didn't have anything suited to attacking capital ships.





> Technology in Star Wars seems to be regressing rather than progressing. The prequels were higher technology than the original trilogy, and things like the Old Republic were even higher technology. So I figure the trend continued and people make these ugly bomber things because they forgot how to build better designs like the B-Wing and Y-Wing.


I mean in the old EU there was technological innovation, but it was slow, the galaxy had mostly plateaued. It's likely that in the new EU we're seeing the decline of galactic civilisation as it tears itself apart into warring kingdoms, before a new group or philosophy arises that can invent new technology and forge a new empire

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## KillianHawkeye

I think these bombers are clearly not the kind that are meant to be used against capital ships, but rather ground targets. The Resistance is using them out of desperation, IMO.

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## Rodin

> I think these bombers are clearly not the kind that are meant to be used against capital ships, but rather ground targets. The Resistance is using them out of desperation, IMO.


I like that explanation for why they're so janky.  It still doesn't explain why you would fly in such close formation to generate soft kills from another ship exploding.  Bombers didn't do that in WWII, which is a major inspiration for Star Wars in the first place.  So why do it here?

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## VoxRationis

> Technology in Star Wars seems to be regressing rather than progressing. The prequels were higher technology than the original trilogy, and things like the Old Republic were even higher technology. So I figure the trend continued and people make these ugly bomber things because they forgot how to build better designs like the B-Wing and Y-Wing.


I wouldn't say that's consistently true. After all, BB-series astromechs pack the same kind of utility the R-series had into a much smaller package. Star Destroyers pretty consistently get larger and more powerful over the years in the main continuous sequence of years we see covered. The _Leviathan_, the enormous foreboding ship we fear in KotOR, is something like a twentieth of the volume of a standard _Imperial_-class Star Destroyer (600 meters long versus 1600). The sequel trilogy shows sporadic developments of one capability or another. I'd say that though there is less technological innovation than one would expect over decades in an industrialized society spanning hundreds of planets, things aren't exactly decaying a la 40K. There are also some moments in this very film, and I'll be vague so as not to spoil anything, where people examine weapons and vehicles from the Rebellion era and unambiguously refer to them as undesirable to use.

The issue that the bombers have, I think, stems from a desire to sort of hyper-stylize the Resistance by exaggerating aesthetic cues. Since a lot of Rebellion/Resistance stuff is based on imagery of the Allies in WWII, they wanted to throw in a scene with vertical-drop bomb bays, ignoring the fact that such things don't really make sense in space combat.*

Edit: I think we have to discount the idea that there is a serious Watsonian explanation for why the bombers are like this, for spoiler reasons that I will enclose below:

*Spoiler*
Show

I see these suggestions that the bombers are, in fact, repurposed minelayers or anti-surface bombers. I think the minelayer explanation makes more sense because the Resistance would have little reason to invest any resources in a vehicle that only carpet-bombs surface targets with gravity bombs. Nonetheless, I think we can't credit the movie for thinking like this _because no one ever mentions it._ Poe gets in trouble for pressing the attack with the bombers, even though it was absolutely the right thing to do. They would never get a better opportunity to use them because the bomber design is so terrible that even in an optimal use case (a single capital ship, outside the range of its fellows' supporting fire, has had its surface cannons disabled and has delayed launching its fighters, preventing them from establishing a screen far enough in advance of the ship), they suffer 100% casualties and very nearly fail the mission. If the idea was that these "bombers" were non-combat vehicles being used outside of their intended purpose, likely at Poe's urging, a) blaming Poe would make more sense, and b) Leia or someone else would mention it: "That minelayer squadron could have kept a First Order flotilla stuck in port for a month if you hadn't rammed them headfirst into the enemy." But such a thing is never said, and every character seems to agree that this frontal attack on capital ships is what the bombers are supposed to be doing, but that this wasn't the time to be doing it. I can only conclude that the writers prioritized getting the cinematic shots they wanted (of rank on rank of bombs plunging out of the open belly of a spacecraft) over actually thinking whether the spacecraft in those shots made sense.


*Or at least not the space combat shown in Star Wars. In a Niven-esque setting, you could easily have a weapon system wherein such bomb bays have a very light, underpowered mass driver that just sort of nudges the bombs out on a small vector perpendicular to the line of travel, with the idea that since they're being launched from a ship traveling at relativistic velocities, the bombs will, from the target's perspective, make a beeline _forward._ But that's not how they work here.

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## The Glyphstone

According to Wookiieepeediiaa, 

*Spoiler: Bombers*
Show


Are intended for microgravity/zero-gravity, because the 'gravity bombs' are actually magnetically launched and guided to fall 'down' towards the largest magnetic object nearby, such as a capital ship.

Okay then.




They're also called B/SF-17 StarFortress heavy bombers apparently, in case the inspirational material hadn't finished beating you over the head hard enough.

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## Fyraltari

Honestly, I _like_ Episode VIII, and I still think these bombers are stupid and this battle makes little sense.

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## The Glyphstone

I always thought it was one-third each of three potentially very good movies, myself. But going into detail would be spoilers.

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## VoxRationis

> Honestly, I _like_ Episode VIII, and I still think these bombers are stupid and this battle makes little sense.


That's my general attitude as well. I see VIII as a flawed but good movie that does best when focusing on the "opera" part of "space opera" and not the "space."

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## Anonymouswizard

> I always thought it was one-third each of three potentially very good movies, myself. But going into detail would be spoilers.


VII was pretty much fine. It's good but a retread, but most of us went in expecting a retread.

*Spoiler: E8 and E9*
Show

VIII is a pretty good movie, but probably needed another draft or to be moved. It would have worked as an ending, but as it is it just closes off too many branches.

IX is two films crammed into one. If ideas had been given time to breath it would have been a good E8 and E9, as it is it just rushes from plot point to plot point 


All three have occasional 'um, okay' moments that weren't in most of the previous films, but nothing that can't be overlooked in the moment. Barring, of course, those bloody bombers.

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## Kornaki

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I see these suggestions that the bombers are, in fact, repurposed minelayers or anti-surface bombers. I think the minelayer explanation makes more sense because the Resistance would have little reason to invest any resources in a vehicle that only carpet-bombs surface targets with gravity bombs. Nonetheless, I think we can't credit the movie for thinking like this _because no one ever mentions it._ Poe gets in trouble for pressing the attack with the bombers, even though it was absolutely the right thing to do. They would never get a better opportunity to use them because the bomber design is so terrible that even in an optimal use case (a single capital ship, outside the range of its fellows' supporting fire, has had its surface cannons disabled and has delayed launching its fighters, preventing them from establishing a screen far enough in advance of the ship), they suffer 100% casualties and very nearly fail the mission. If the idea was that these "bombers" were non-combat vehicles being used outside of their intended purpose, likely at Poe's urging, a) blaming Poe would make more sense, and b) Leia or someone else would mention it: "That minelayer squadron could have kept a First Order flotilla stuck in port for a month if you hadn't rammed them headfirst into the enemy." But such a thing is never said, and every character seems to agree that this frontal attack on capital ships is what the bombers are supposed to be doing, but that this wasn't the time to be doing it. I can only conclude that the writers prioritized getting the cinematic shots they wanted (of rank on rank of bombs plunging out of the open belly of a spacecraft) over actually thinking whether the spacecraft in those shots made sense.


*Spoiler*
Show

My working theory is no one knows what the ships are for.   They found them,  or had them donated,  or stole them,  and decided to load them up with bombs.   Maybe they think they *are* supposed to be bombers, and the poor performance simply proves Poe used them poorly in their minds. These are basically the last single pilot ships they have,  all we can conclude is they did not save the best for last.

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## Fyraltari

> VII was pretty much fine.


Most of what's wrong with this trilogy comes directly from VII.
*Spoiler*
Show

Destroying the accomplishments of OT? VII blew up the new Republic and slaughtered Luke's new Jedi Order.
Taking away the character development of the heroes? VII divorced Han and Leia, made Han a down-on-his luck smuggler again and had Luke flee to the end of nowhere while his nephew turned evil and the Empire was on the rise again.
Snoke coming out of nowhere? VII.
Rey becoming an accomplished Jedi in  no time flat? VII. 
The First Order being inexplicably much more powerful than the New Republic? VII.

TFA actively refuses to do the work the first part of a trilogy ought to: to properly set things up. Instead it just lays a few "mystery boxes" in front of the viewer and passes the responsability of dealing with them to the next guy. Who were Rey's parents? No one should care, but Abrams certainly wanted us to. Even though he evidently had no answer. Where did Snoke come from? Abrams didn't care. What was Luke up to that was so important? Good luck finding a satisfying answer to that one, Rian!
Hey guys, be sure to put Phasma in every single trailer, such an important charac





> It's good but a retread, but most of us went in expecting a retread.


Actually, I remember a lot of people being confused by that at the time, wondering if there were a good reason to do something so close to Episode IV, and whether it was some attempt to gain the fans' trust before going to new directions in the next two.
*Spoiler*
Show

Turns out it was creative bankruptcy.




> *Spoiler: E8 and E9*
> Show
> 
> IX is two films crammed into one. If ideas had been given time to breath it would have been a good E8 and E9, as it is it just rushes from plot point to plot point


*Spoiler*
Show

What ideas? What is there of value in TRoS? This movie has nothing to say, about anything. _Star Wars_ used to be about something. About joining the fight for freedom, about finding yourself, about reckoning with your own family, about democracy falling into tyranny. And it had something to say about the society of its time. But TRoS? It's the most obvious example of the trend of SW to be more and more self-referential rather than be about its surrounding culture. The Empire was a stand-in for real thing, Palpatine was stand-in for real people, the First Order is a stand-in for the Empire and Palpatine is reduced to be his own stand-in, if that makes sense. This movie is just an empty spectacle, noise and lights devoid of any meaning or stakes.

You want to talk about retread? IX's main plot points is that the hero is descended from the villain and that the hero redeems the dark henchman, at the cost of his life. _I feel like I've seen that somewhere already._

Take the first two trilogies, as much as we clown on "it's like poetry, it rhymes", none of those six movies are like the other five. Of the three "main" Disney movies, TLJ is the only one that isn't aping another movie and the only one that has something to say. That's no coincidence.

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