# Forum > Gaming > Homebrew Design > D&D 3.x Class 3.5e class tiers "for better balance" attemp

## Ceuthonymus

This is a balance attempt, which I would like to use as homebrew based on the Class tier and Prestige Class tier posts. 
I didn't want to interfere too much into the rules of 3.5e, but I tried to use its tools to create a kind of more balanced gameplay with minor modifications. Based on what many have said, the balance of the classes starts to slip at level 6, so from here I started to slow down the development of the stronger classes and give more opportunities to the weaker ones to keep up with them. 
   I would be interested in the opinion of the veterans, if my players reaches the level 6, should I use it or it might cause more harm than good. I am asking you to shed light on its biggest weaknesses, or whether it is in the right direction at all.

I'm not allowed to post links but there are the titles what I based it all on.
Class tier - Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update! (Giant in the Playground Forum)
PrC tier - Tier System for PrCs - Reboot (Minmaxforum)


Tier 1: +2 ECL  (at level 6 +1, & at 11 +1)
Tier 2: +1 ECL  (at level 6 +1)
Tier 3: +0 ECL
Tier 4:  -1 ECL  (at level 6  -1)
Tier 5:  -2 ECL  (at level 6  -2)
Tier 6:  -3 ECL  (at level 6  -3)

The extra ECLs are clearly level adjustments, but the minuses are hard to interpret at first. Since I didn't want to interfere into the experience table and based on many opinions, the balance of the classes starts to slip from level 6, so I thought that from there they get the first increased level adjustment, but for the minuses, it provides more opportunities for ECL deduction.

 A, Take prestige class (if meets the requirements) levels in parallel with your basic class (+1 level of existing class features)
as Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion would for level adjustment or without feeling it on the xp table.

Class Features: At each level,
you gain class features and an increase in effective 
level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which 
you belonged before adding the prestige class level. 
The speciﬁc class features you gain include spells 
per day (and spells known, if applicable1), improved 
chance of turning or destroying undead, metamagic or 
item creation feats, bonus feats, monk special abili-
ties, sneak attack progressions, and so on, depending 
on the class. You do not, however, gain the beneﬁt of 
your previous classes Hit Dice, attack progression, 
skill points, or saving throws. If you had more than 
one class before using this prestige class bonus, you 
must decide to which class to add each level for the 
purpose of determining class abilities.

1, Applicable, if the choosen prestige class has some kind of bonus by the current levels and of course if the basic class also own spells as well.

 Level 1-5    +1ECL
 Level 6-10   +2ECL
 Level 11-15  +3ECL
 Level 16-20  +4ECL
  + the chosen Prestige Classes tier level adjustment at every 5 level (if is +2 or -2 you should half it to level 5th and 10th.

E.g.: You can take as a Knight (-2ECL), the Knight of the Weave (+0ECL) prestige class at level 6 with "+1 level of existing class features", so you can increase your level pararell to the Prc 10th level (+2ECL)  (-2+0+2=0), so without level adjustment.

B, Pick up a template.
 E.g.: As Paladin (-1ECL) you can gain the Saint template (+2ECL), (-1+2)= +1 for level adjustment.

And there is a 3rd option, but it may hurt the balance the first 6 levels.

C, Use a stronger races.
 E.g.: Start with Drow (+2ECL) as Monk (-2ECL), (2-2=0) so without level adjustment.


Thank you very much for stopping by!

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## Metastachydium

Well, while I'm not certain it would work without issues all the time, I sure appreciate the idea of reducing LA for those that need a stronger chassis the most. In fact, I'm currently in a game where the DM graciously waived up to 3 points of LA for characters as long as the build was neither cheesy, nor (mostly) a high tier caster. It works swimmingly, so the core idea is demonstrably sound.

Still, I'd be cautious with saddling high tier builds with actual LA. Whilst "always boost, never nerf" (noble as the sentiment may be) is something I find easier said than done, losing levels is never fun and can indeed be crippling. Personally, I see more potential in uneven distribution of feats and ASIs; SAD classes can do with fewer of those (especially, needless to say, the latter) than MAD classes, by design no less.

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## Ceuthonymus

> Well, while I'm not certain it would work without issues all the time, I sure appreciate the idea of reducing LA for those that need a stronger chassis the most. In fact, I'm currently in a game where the DM graciously waived up to 3 points of LA for characters as long as the build was neither cheesy, nor (mostly) a high tier caster. It works swimmingly, so the core idea is demonstrably sound.
> 
> Still, I'd be cautious with saddling high tier builds with actual LA. Whilst "always boost, never nerf" (noble as the sentiment may be) is something I find easier said than done, losing levels is never fun and can indeed be crippling. Personally, I see more potential in uneven distribution of feats and ASIs; SAD classes can do with fewer of those (especially, needless to say, the latter) than MAD classes, by design no less.


Thank you very much for the answer, I was beginning to think that my idea was so far removed from reality that no one wrote. 

In response to what you wrote about the level adjustment, I "designed" the system so that it would change uniformly according to each class tier, I found LA to be the most suitable for this. I know that the class tiers do not have different strengths mathematically either, so less allows for fine-tuning. But you made me think about the fact that the stronger tiers should be "punished" with feats and ASIs.

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## Anymage

Giving bonus ECL runs into the classic issue when people attempt to tier up the fighter; they give it more ability to kill things when the core problem is that it has no tools for when "kill things" isn't the solution.  If the fighter's problem is that all it can do is fight and you give it more levels so it can fight better, that doesn't resolve the core problem.

One thing I remember seeing was a gestalt game where the two classes had to have at least a certain combined tier target.  It's not perfect (e.g: monk becomes surprisingly good when its core of "don't get hurt" is attached to a class that can actually do things), but might be the band-aid you're looking for if your table can't just agree to a tier target for everybody.

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## Metastachydium

> Thank you very much for the answer, I was beginning to think that my idea was so far removed from reality that no one wrote. 
> 
> In response to what you wrote about the level adjustment, I "designed" the system so that it would change uniformly according to each class tier, I found LA to be the most suitable for this. I know that the class tiers do not have different strengths mathematically either, so less allows for fine-tuning. But you made me think about the fact that the stronger tiers should be "punished" with feats and ASIs.


Glad I could be of help!




> Giving bonus ECL runs into the classic issue when people attempt to tier up the fighter; they give it more ability to kill things when the core problem is that it has no tools for when "kill things" isn't the solution.  If the fighter's problem is that all it can do is fight and you give it more levels so it can fight better, that doesn't resolve the core problem.


ECL is not levels, however! It's, well, ECL, which can take the form of RHD or LA just as easily. Let me give you an example! Like I said, I'm currently in a game where builds using low-tier classes for non-cheesy stuff get some LA waived. In practice, this allowed me to slap the Winged and Dark templates on my Knight without losing levels. Now my _Knight_ has incredible speed/mobility in and out of combat, as well as incredible stealth.

Races and templates can do this and more. There's quite a number of those that help MAD, skill-starved characters gain the stats or skill points they need. Others provide modes of movement and many will even offer scaling sets of SLAs or PLAs. Also, tiers 5&6 are about struggling at performing within a class's own niche or not having one. Options that will allow a Fighter to function as advertised is not at all a bad thing, especially when there's but one of the paths extra ECL can open up.

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