# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 >  The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

## Debatra

Thread Twelve. We're going to put another dent into Thurbane's Monster Manual VI compilation of online monster articles. There's a lot though, so we probably won't finish it this thread.

If you're new here, you'll want to at least read through the "Clarification" section of the archive thread to get a feel for what we're doing.

On asterisk ratings:



> The asterisk is not necessarily 'this will be tricky to normally use'. It denotes 'this has an ability that would be completely broken if allowed, and the rating assumes you remove it'.
> 
> The problem with 'low movement speed' and 'has to find a host' is that there's no real trait to remove. Take away 1 ft. movement and... replace it with a basic human walking pace? Remove the symbiont's power restrictions when unattached? There's no obvious way to remove 
> 
> Furthermore: we've rated monsters that wouldn't fit in most dungeons, monsters that need water to breathe, monsters that die from water, monsters that would get run out of any civilized place, and monsters that explode if you leave them out in the sun. None of those traits got them asterisk-ed, because the underlying assumption that they'd only be played in the campaigns that could accommodate them.
> 
> What monsters _did_ get an asterisk? Those whose abilities would innately and effortlessly disrupt _any_ campaign. A dryad can't be used in any campaign that involves 'going places'. An efreet can't be used in any campaign that involves, well, the PCs having goals.


Please place your votes in *bold*. This isn't required, but it makes things easier on me when I go for the final counts.

And so the new thread starts with... pie.

---

Devil, Pie Fiend

*Size & Type:* Large Outsider (Baatezu, Lawful, Evil)
*Face/Reach:* 5'/10'
*HD:* 13, 21 (Huge)
*Speed:* 30', Fly 50' (Average)
*Ability Scores:* Str +14, Dex +2, Con +10, Int +10, Wis +10, Cha +8 - Net +54, no penalties
*Natural Armor:* 18
*Natural Weapons:* Two Primary Wings (1d4) (Also worth mentioning that, while not a natural weapon, they often use rolling pins as Clubs.)
*Skill List:* Bluff, Concentration, Craft (Baking), Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot
*Body Shape:* Humanoid
*Speech (Languages):* Yes (Infernal, Celestial, Draconic), Telepathy (range unspecified)
*CR:* 14
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* +1

*Spoiler: Funny flavor text, taken ver batim*
Show

Many sages remain skeptical that the dreaded pie fiend exists anywhere except in the fevered imaginations of people who fear the unknown. Accounts of these creatures' appearance and habits vary widely, probably because of their unmatched ability to disguise themselves as innocuous commoners (but perhaps because the skeptical sages are right to be skeptical).

Most sources agree that a pie fiend in its natural form resembles a hulking ape with a barrel chest, long arms, and vast bat-like wings. Its dark, shaggy fur is peppered with flecks of light-colored dust (bits of flour, some say). It wears no clothing except a tattered apron with many overloaded pockets, well spattered with variously colored stains. Waves of shimmering heat, along with the curiously pleasant scent of sweet spices and fresh pastry, often surround the creature.

These strange creatures have an affinity for baked goods of all sorts. They spend much of their time creating them and temping mortals with them. (A pie fiend's pies are invariably well made, but usually perilous to consume.) They also have a sweet tooth and can seldom resist swiping another baker's wares. A pie left cooling on a windowsill often tempts a pie fiend to pilfer it, and the pie fiend often leaves one of its own creations in place of the stolen confection.


Immunity to fire and poison, DR 5/-, and SR 26 make for a great chassis on top of those ability scores (and on a speech-capable humanoid shape to boot!).

It has a few good at-will SLAs, each at CL17 and with Charisma-based saves where applicable: Alter Self, Charm Person, Desecrate, Detect Good, Detect Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, Greater Invisibility, Magic Circle Against Good, Mage Hand, Major Image, Pyrotechnics, Suggestion, Greater Teleport (self plus 50lbs of objects), Unholy Aura, and Unhallow.

In addition to actual SLAs, the Pie Fiend has a few other at-will abilities that mostly mimic spells, such as Animate Pie (Animate Objects, but can animate up to thirteen Tiny or smaller objects at a time), and Heatwall (Wall of Fire, but colorless and transparent, and cold effects don't put it out). These are also CL17.

Once each day, the Pie Fiend can generate a compulsion that makes up to thirteen creatures within a 60' radius feel completely content for ten minutes. Creatures that fail the Charisma-based will save can take no actions as though dazed for the duration. Even those who save take a -2 penalty to Str and Dex for that time, and can't run or charge. Any attack against or damage dealt to an affected creature breaks the "not quite daze" effect prematurely, as if they had made their save. Despite being a Su ability, it can be dispelled as if it were a spell cast at CL17.

Its _Make Into Pie_ ability functions three times per day. This power allows it to create a large thin sheet of pie crust that it can hurl up to 100' like a net. Each sheet can entangle a creature of up to Huge size. Entangled creatures can escape by attempting either a DC28 Escape Artist check or a DC34 Str check as a standard action. The dough has a hardness of 2 and 14 HP. It's immune to energy attacks, and actually traps heat inside of it. Any fire effects the creature inside is subjected to are maximized, "baking" the victim.

At will, the Fiend can conjure its namesake confection _Easy as Pie_. This ability is a free action, and the resulting food is delicious, nutritious, nonmagical (unless it makes one of its "special" pies) and safe to eat. They can be made from a variety of ingredients, such as fruits, meats, nuts, vegetables, or whatever else you might put in a pie or tart. Food won't be an issue with a Pie Fiend in your party. The pies will rot and decay just like any other food, but they're conjured fresh and ready to eat. The Pie Fiend can also use them as either a melee or ranged weapon (120' range) to deal 1d3+StrMod nonlethal damage.

In addition to ordinary pies, the Fiend has four types of special pies it can create. Each of these can be made up to seven times per day, with the exception of a Sinfully-Delicious Pie, which can be done once per day. Each of these (as well as making normal pies) is a Su ability.

A Sticky Pie does as the name implies, functioning as a tanglefoot bag. This pie is nonmagical, but dissolves in 2d6+13 rounds. (I'm unsure if it's supposed to be equal to HD or if it's flat and a coincidence.) A quart of alcohol or weak acid (such as vinegar) dissolves the pie immediately, freeing the creature trapped within.

The Pie Fiend can also make extremely hot or extremely cold pies. In addition to the nonlethal damage of a normal pie, these deal an additional 1d4+5 fire or cold damage on a successful hit. The bits of pie remain stuck to the target for 1d4 rounds, dealing its fire/cold damage each round or until a full-round action is taken to remove it. If not used immediately, the pie remains hot/cold for 2d4 rounds, after which it cools/warms and becomes a normal pie. Note that Hot and Cold Pies are _separate_ abilities that can _each_ be used seven times per day.

Finally, the Sinfully-Delicious Pie is a true masterpiece that sends living creatures into fits of ecstasy. This has a different effect based on the alignment of the ones who have so much as a taste of it. Good creatures feel the pie is so good that it must be a sin, causing them to feel extreme guilt that leads to a Confusion effect, while Evil creatures become giddy and start to dance and jump about as per Otto's Irresistible Dance. Neutral characters have a 50% chance of either effect. Both effects are CL17. These are mind-affecting compulsions, and can be avoided with a Charisma-based Will save. If not eaten immediately, the Sinfully-Delicious Pie remains potent for 1d4 hours before becoming just another ordinary pie.

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## H_H_F_F

This is absurd. So weird to see a creature casually get greater dispel magic at will, but treated as if doing 1d4+5 fire damage is anything.

Anyway, this is very good, but I'm not sure if it's positive LA good. Hard to judge creatures with so much HD when they don't very obviously suck.

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## Troacctid

Warlock is the closest comparison here, as many of the pie fiend's abilities also appear on the warlock invocation list. And this monster compares _very_ favorably against warlock.

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## Beni-Kujaku

Aaaah, you love yourself some good April Fool's monsters (and some pies). I agree with Troacctid that this is most probably good enough for a LA. So many at-wills on an Outsider chassis with SR 13+HD and +18 NA is extremely good.

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## danielxcutter

I'm not sure what's funnier; the entire concept, or that this thing is entirely capable of whupping the butts of overconfident or underprepared PCs.

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## Dimers

Outsider skill points, the skill list and a couple SLAs make this fine as a party face.  Greater dispel at will is nice, though I assume it's locked at CL 17 regardless of advancement.  Major image can have some utility if you're inventive.  Unholy aura and greater invis are nice party buffs, and the contentment effect could deflate one combat a day.  I suppose anything with full BAB and +14 Strength can swing a sword.  So there are some things the pie fiend can do even though its "signature" abilities all seem pretty useless at level 13.  The ability scores, natural armor, fly speed, telepathy and immunities are all personally great to have, though the party wouldn't care as much.  Greater teleport would be amazing if it could transport the party, but it's pretty questionable whether a party and its equipment could fit into a Type III bag of holding (which would leave the pie fiend only 15 pounds for its personal equipment outside the bag).

I think this critter would make _some_ contribution in a high-level party, but frankly it lacks offense or even much BFC.  It's mostly defensive, which doesn't win battles.  Furthermore, I don't see a good base class to progress it as it levels up (maybe there's a great PrC out there?).  I'm gonna put it on the same level as a sorcerer just getting their 7ths, which would be more fun and probably more effective but definitely harder to keep alive.  *LA +1* for me.

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## remetagross

This monster is hilarious and I'd love to play one. That said, I'm not really sure where it can go as far as progression is concerned. A possibility would be Rogue, playing out the social skills and disguising SLA's as much as possible. The at-will Greater Invisibility is a cherry on top (of the pie! Got it?) to trigger sneak attacks reliably...including ranged sneak attacks by throwing pies!

But it's too powerful to not have an LA. These at-will Greater Dispel Magic but also Greater Teleport will at once dwarf the party casters, and its infiltration ability far outstrips what a rogue of equal level can do. I'd say it needs an* LA of +2*: this way, rogues can afford at that moment a Ring of Invisibility, which is a 15th-level item.

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## liquidformat

Pie fiend has a great entry in the Villains competition



> But it's too powerful to not have an LA. These at-will Greater Dispel Magic but also Greater Teleport will at once dwarf the party casters, and its infiltration ability far outstrips what a rogue of equal level can do. I'd say it needs an* LA of +2*: this way, rogues can afford at that moment a Ring of Invisibility, which is a 15th-level item.


While Greater Teleport is nothing to sneeze at the self +50lb really does nerf it quite a bit, without stuffing your team into a portable hole or such its not going to be that helpful. Sure it could save your party caster from having to use their spells for day to day party transport but they will still want to have it prepared as a last resort escape button. As far as Greater Dispel Magic goes to be honest I have never seen it nor dispel magic actually used in a game by a player in something like 20 years of play so yeah I see its usefulness in theory but sorry I don't value it very highly. Without sneak attack the value of being invisible is significantly nerfed, also by level 13 much less 15 a lot of encounters will have enemies with true seeing, in my experience maxed hide/move silently + dark stalker +HiPS is much more powerful at these levels than invisibility and Greater Invisibility. Even if you were to use the rest of your 5 to 7 levels for SA classes at most you would be looking at something like 5d6 SA which really isn't much by level 20.

Charm person, hold person, and for our more imaginative people Major Image are probably the real flour and butter for the Pie monkey; I suppose since you have it at will spamming greater dispel will be ok until you hit level 17 or 18. Besides That I would probably go more beatstick with the build maybe grab three levels of swashbuckler to get int to damage or something similar and look at trying to get wis or cha to damage too, dipping bard with snowflake war dance and unarmed swordsage comes to mind.

In the end by levels 13+ this really isn't that impressive and while I think it has enough going for it to be positive LA I am really not seeing anything here that would make me want to play this nor anything that is very powerful. Its a bit too all over the place and has no clear path forward, this seems like a pretty straightforward *+0 LA*.

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## loky1109

I give him *+1*.

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## Tzardok

I agree. *+1* from me.

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## H_H_F_F

I'll vote for *LA +0*, even if it does verge on a +1. I think it's very good at level 13, but the lack of a progression path that really builds on what it can do becomes an issue quite fast. I can see +1, sure, but I think +0 could still work, and I'd rather vote lower when I can see either case.

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## ciopo

Mmmh, how does this compare to a ice devil? That one has 14 RHD and got LA +2.

In hindsight of that, giving this one LA +0 feels a bit on the low side, but perhabs that's more a symptom of the assignment thread evolution?

Pie for thoughts

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## liquidformat

Ice Devil
Size & Type: Large Outsider (Lawful, Evil)
Face/Reach: 5'/10'
HD: 14, 29 (Huge)
Speed: 40'
Ability Scores: Str +12, Dex +10, Con +12, Int +12, Wis +12, Cha +10 - Net +68, no penalties
Natural Armor: 18
Natural Weapons: Two Primary claws (1d10), Bite (2d6), Tail (3d6)
Skill List: Bluff, Climb, Concentration,  Diplomacy, Disguise,  Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Any three), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Infernal, Celestial, Draconic), Telepathy (range unspecified)
CR: 13
WotC LA: -

DR 10/good, Immunity Fire and Poison, Res 10 acid and cold, Regeneration 5, Spell Res 25.
SLAs: At will Cone of Cold, Fly, Ice Storm, Greater Teleport, Persistent Image, Unholy Aura, Wall of Ice; CL 13 Cha based DCs; Summon Devil
Slow: anything hit with spear or tail must make a DC 23 Fort Save or be slowed for 1d6 rounds.
Fear Aura: 10' radius DC 22 Will Save for be effected by cl 13 fear aura, 24 immunity for anything succeeding the save.

So between its natural speed and at will fly sla Ice devil has better movement; Ice devil is a veritable meat blender strongly supported by regen 5 and good AC, DR and SR; the SLAs are a bit of a mixed bag as a primary melee Ice devil's spells are more useful Ice wall and persistent image for some BFC and cone of cold for some blasting. However, Pie fiend's selection tends to be a bit better as debuffer (dispell) and SoL (charm and hold person) with lesser BFC between Major Image and Heatwall. Greater Teleport is actually more powerful for the Ice Devil than the Pie Fiend, since it adds a more BFC to the Ice Devil since it is a larger threat on the battlefield and adds extra mobility.
The really big difference I see is Ice Devil is a real melee threat with some useful SLAs to back it up and some pretty obvious paths that add a lot of power to it, just simply getting a few levels of totemist, Warblade, swordsage, or any number of PRCs does a lot to keep Ice Devil very powerful and relevant. 
On the other hand going against nonhumanoids and things immune to mind affecting effects does a lot to nerf the Pie fiend, and at  level 13+ most of the Pie Fiends pie related abilities are already useless. Furthermore, there aren't any clear and useful paths for the Pie Fiend.
I personally Think the Ice Devil is probably a high +1 but its still fine at +2. The Pie Fiend seems competitive at level 13-14 but at 15+ it really starts falling off in usefulness. If we start the Pie Fiend at +2 LA to be frank it is no longer competitive with the rest of a decently optimized level 15 party and only competitive with a pretty low op group.

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## Remuko

I'm gonna throw my hate in with the *+0 LA* crowd. Though I don't think +1 is unreasonable. Any higher than +1 seems far too high to me.

Official vote from me is bolded. This is just for clarification.

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## Troacctid

Let's compare this to a level 18 warlock.

A level 18 warlock has fourteen invocations (two dark, three each of least, lesser, and greater, plus eldritch blast 8d6 and detect magic) and +13 BAB. With a base 14 Con and Int, he has 101 HP and 84 skill points. His class gives him DR 4, two energy resistances at 5 each, limited fast healing, and a total of +4 to his ability scores.

Here is the standard recommended set of invocations from my Warlockopedia.

*Least:* eldritch glaive, darkness, sickening blast, (detect magic, eldritch blast)
*Lesser:* fell flight, voracious dispelling, eldritch chain
*Greater:* chilling tentacles, vitriolic blast, enervating darkness
*Dark:* dark foresight, path of shadow

Okay, let's compare this to the pie fiend. She has +13 BAB, and with a base of 14 Con and Int, she has 153 HP and 345 skill points. She has DR 5 and is immune to fire and poison. She also has a total of +54 to her ability scores. Here's a breakdown of her invocations, based on the grade I think they would be assigned, or marked with * if the ability actually exists as a warlock invocation already.

*Least:* see in darkness*, easy as pie, desecrate, detect good, detect magic*, hypnotic pattern, mage hand
*Lesser:* Large size, fly speed 50 ft*, telepathy, alter self, charm person*, hold person, magic circle against good, major image, pyrotechnics, waves of contentment
*Greater:* natural armor +18, SR 26, animate pie, heatwall*, make into pie, greater dispel magic*, suggestion*, unhallow
*Dark:* greater invisibility*, greater teleport, unholy aura

So, comparing the two. The pie fiend has much stronger invocations at the lesser and greater grades, and pretty damn good ones at dark. I would estimate that in invocations alone, she's easily equivalent to a warlock of at least 16th level, and honestly stacks up pretty well against even a 20th level warlock. Yeah, her dark invocations aren't quite as good, but all those extra greater invocations more than make up for it. She also has incredible ability score bonuses, and even with the default all 10s array, her stats dwarf those of any normal PC. Meanwhile, the warlock has more consistent damage thanks to his 8d6 vitriolic blast, which can be expected to consistently produce about 91 DPR with eldritch glaive against a single target, or about 98 DPR with eldritch chain spread across four targets. The pie fiend can probably full attack with a greatsword and wings for about 6d6+2d4+50ish? damage if everything hits, which isn't bad, but I'd bet it's not as consistent at this level as the laser beam touch attacks, even with the extra accuracy from the higher Strength.

All in all, if you took away that big pile of raw stats, I think a 13 HD pie fiend is about equivalent to a level 16 warlock. Once you add on the extra +50 to ability scores, she's honestly probably on par with a level 20 warlock. Like, being real here, do y'all realize that even if you slapped a whopping +7 LA on the pie fiend, she still has better HP, saves, and skill points than a level 20 warlock, despite having 7 fewer HD? Outsider hit dice are whack.

I don't know how some of you have come up with +0 or +1 LA. I'd put it at *+4 LA* and I think that's being very generous. Even with +5, it would still be playable, IMO. "But where is it supposed to progress from here?" Who cares? It's already on par with a 20th level character. It _is_ the endgame.

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## Beni-Kujaku

Now, the warlock has the eldritch blast that can be easily quickened, or improved with one or two invocations. They can also PrC or multiclass, and their abilities have much more synergy (or possible synergy) than the abilities of a Pie Fiend. 

That said, there are *a lot* of abilities. More than 10+HD SR, more than HD in natural armor, the ability to always be surrounded by Unholy Aura, to Greater Dispel with a level much higher than his own, obviously Greater Teleport, which is hard to get except for full casters, and being able to Suggestion at-will is great in fights that last more than a few rounds and in a lot of social situations. 

What the Pie Fiend doesn't have in offense (it doesn't have a lot to face non-humanoid foes beyond just hitting them with a stick), it more than makes up for with defense (you really can't overstate how hard SR 28, 18 natural armor before items is hard to pass around CR15) and utility. I feel like that's a solid *LA+2*. Maybe not three, but definitely not +0 in my opinion.

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## Debatra

Where are people getting "10/13+HD" for the spell resistance? SR is just listed as 26, and nowhere does it say it scales.

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## Beni-Kujaku

> Where are people getting "10/13+HD" for the spell resistance? SR is just listed as 26, and nowhere does it say it scales.


Because, especially for high-powered monsters like this one, most players will probably play it at its ECL or very slightly higher. There really aren't that many campaigns (or one-shots, for that matter) that go up to 20 and stay at 20 for a significant amount of time before the end of the campaign. That's why, in general, I want the monster to be playable at its ECL, or at its ECL+1, even if it becomes abit weaker after a few levels (since, for the majority of monsters, the bonuses they give don't scale up as well as class levels), rather than it being overpowered when it is introduced but being balanced for ECL 20.

In that regard, what's important is comparing its initial SR with the caster level of the spellcasters it is likely to encounter at its minimum ECL, which is basically SR-HD with a small additive constant. In the Pie Fiend's case, if you give it LA+1, it has SR 26 in an ECL 14 environment. That's only 40% for enemy casters to affect it, or more likely even less, since boss monsters often have a caster level below their CR. That is hard to affect and should definitely weigh in the balance.

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## danielxcutter

There's that vest in the PHB2 that raises innate SR though, that'd be great.

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## remetagross

> As far as Greater Dispel Magic goes to be honest I have never seen it nor dispel magic actually used in a game by a player in something like 20 years of play so yeah I see its usefulness in theory but sorry I don't value it very highly.


I have played a Wilder in a campaign spamming Dispel Psionics 3 MLs above the party's ECL thanks to Wild Surge. It is an extremely consistent and useful ability to have. I do value it very highly from experience.

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## ciopo

I vote *LA +2*

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## Beni-Kujaku

> I have played a Wilder in a campaign spamming Dispel Psionics 3 MLs above the party's ECL thanks to Wild Surge. It is an extremely consistent and useful ability to have. I do value it very highly from experience.


And the pit fiend can quite easily max out its Greater Dispel with one ioun stone and two magic tattoos. Honestly, dispel spam can disable quite a lot of encounters all on its own. Especially if you take Arcane Mastery, you can basically automatically dispel or counter one spell per round.

Edit: I'm not sure, does Reactive Counterspell work with Dispel Magic?

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## danielxcutter

Er this is a PIE fiend not a pit fiend.

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## Tzardok

> Edit: I'm not sure, does Reactive Counterspell work with Dispel Magic?


I don't see why not.

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## AsuraKyoko

I'm inclined to agree with Troacctid, this thing is _really_ strong, though I'm a little more inclined to be generous, and give this thing *+3* LA.

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## Beni-Kujaku

> Er this is a PIE fiend not a pit fiend.


Oh, yeah, nothing to do with each other. I don't know what came over me.




> I don't see why not.


Then I am going to quote my favorite Magic:the Gathering flavor text:

"Masters of the arcane savor a delicious irony. Their study of deep and complex arcana leads to such a simple end: the ability to say merely yes or no."

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## liquidformat

> *Greater:* natural armor +18, SR 26, animate pie, heatwall*, make into pie, greater dispel magic*, suggestion*, unhallow


How are Animate Pie and Make into Pie Greater invocations? 
Animate pie allows you to animate up to 13 tiny objects for 17 rounds each only has 1/2d10 at this level that ability is fluff and is at most a Least invocation though I don't think it is even worth taking/using as a least invocation.

Make into pie while it isn't horrible I don't think it quite compares with Greater invocations; also it is only useable 3/day just that fact alone it should drop it down to lesser if not least.

Also why are you listing eldritch blast as a least invocation, isn't that significantly undervaluing it?

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## Tzardok

> Also why are you listing eldritch blast as a least invocation, isn't that significantly undervaluing it?


Isn't that what it officially _is_, ruleswise speaking?

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## Metastachydium

> Make into pie while it isn't horrible I don't think it quite compares with Greater invocations; also it is only useable 3/day just that fact alone it should drop it down to lesser if not least.


I'd argue that it disqualifies it completely. Invocations are by definition at-will, regardless of their power level. (Mutatis mutandis, the same applies to Waves of Contentment as well. No, a 1/day Su ability is not the equivalent of an invocation, nor is it analogous to one.)




> Also why are you listing eldritch blast as a least invocation, isn't that significantly undervaluing it?





> Isn't that what it officially _is_, ruleswise speaking?


Nope. Eldritch Blast resembles an invocation, but it's explicitly _not_ one.

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## Brackenlord

It's quite the chassis, but I value progression higher in the 10s range.
I vote for *+1*, at ECL 14 it is a pile of useful things with very little direction so I imagine it dipping lots of frontloaded classes to try to keep up with non-monstrous PCs reaching their PRCs capstones.

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## Tzardok

> Nope. Eldritch Blast resembles an invocation, but it's explicitly _not_ one.


Y'know, I was this close to coming on you like a avenging angel for being wrong, but then I looked it up in Complete Arcane to quote it, and you know what I found? The original text says you are right, but the German translation, which I used all the time in my game, says that the blast _is_ an invocation. How the hell did that happen?  :Small Eek: 

Bah, I'm too old to change my mind. In my games the blast continues to be an invocation.

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## No brains

> Er this is a PIE fiend not a pit fiend.





> Oh, yeah, nothing to do with each other. I don't know what came over me.


It probably originated as a typo and then someone just rolled with the joke (rolled like pie dough!). It's decently notable typo, with the r key being missed entirely. I wonder if there's a pir fiend that doesn't do anything besides sit equidistant between pit and pie fiends. It would still have powerful SLAs, but it doesn't really use them to any end.

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## Tzardok

> Y'know, I was this close to coming on you like a avenging angel for being wrong, but then I looked it up in Complete Arcane to quote it, and you know what I found? The original text says you are right, but the German translation, which I used all the time in my game, says that the blast _is_ an invocation. How the hell did that happen? 
> 
> Bah, I'm too old to change my mind. In my games the blast continues to be an invocation.


Ahah! That's where it comes from. The translation incorporated the errata:




> *Page 8: Invocations and Eldritch Blast*
> Change this section as follows:
> *Invocations and Eldritch Blast:* Eldritch blast is an invocation. Other invocations provide a warlock with the ability to modify his eldritch blast or add new eldritch attacks.


So yes, Eldritch Blast _is_ an invocation.

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## loky1109

> Y'know, I was this close to coming on you like a avenging angel for being wrong, but then I looked it up in Complete Arcane to quote it, and you know what I found? The original text says you are right, but the German translation, which I used all the time in my game, says that the blast _is_ an invocation. How the hell did that happen? 
> 
> Bah, I'm too old to change my mind. In my games the blast continues to be an invocation.


It was errated if I remember correctly.

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## Dimers

> And the pit fiend can quite easily max out its Greater Dispel with one ioun stone and two magic tattoos. Honestly, dispel spam can disable quite a lot of encounters all on its own. Especially if you take Arcane Mastery, you can basically automatically dispel or counter one spell per round.
> 
> Edit: I'm not sure, does Reactive Counterspell work with Dispel Magic?


SRD says "Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell".  It doesn't call out _dispel magic_ as an exception to that rule, so in this case the question is moot.

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## Brackenlord

> SRD says "Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell".  It doesn't call out _dispel magic_ as an exception to that rule, so in this case the question is moot.


Is it clear-cut and encompassing enough to trump the _specific_ in Dispel Magic text? Or it's open to interpretation that a SLA can't counterspell a same name spell; or any SLA.

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## Tzardok

> Is it clear-cut and encompassing enough to trump the _specific_ in Dispel Magic text? Or it's open to interpretation that a SLA can't counterspell a same name spell; or any SLA.


The text as given in the Rules Compendium:




> Spell-like abilities are subject to being dispelled by _dispel magic_ and to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates is subject to spell resistance. They don't function in areas where magic is suppresed or negated, such as in an _antimagic field._ Spell-like abilities can't be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

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## Troacctid

Specific beats general, so a spell-like ability such as _greater dispel magic_ that specifically says it can counterspell can counterspell.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Ahah! That's where it comes from. The translation incorporated the errata:
> 
> 
> 
> So yes, Eldritch Blast _is_ an invocation.


My bad, then. (That's what I get for trusting the books proper!)

----------


## Morphic tide

> It probably originated as a typo and then someone just rolled with the joke (rolled like pie dough!). It's decently notable typo, with the r key being missed entirely. I wonder if there's a pir fiend that doesn't do anything besides sit equidistant between pit and pie fiends. It would still have powerful SLAs, but it doesn't really use them to any end.


As a single word, it exists in Persian with a literal translation of "old person", later being adopted as a term for largely-independent religious teachers/minor spiritual leaders in Islam. I'd go with something local to the Infernal Battlefield of Acheron designed for some active mechanical expression of "fast-tracking" followers to becoming Fiends in truth, with inbuilt qualification for Fiend of Blasphemy.




> The text as given in the Rules Compendium:


Pretty clear-cut that it's referencing the general Counterspelling rule, since Dispel Magic _can_ dispel it, so by all rights a Greater Dispel Magic SLA should do the inverse.

----------


## ciopo

Subjected to being dispelled and subjected to being counterspelled isn't exactly the same, tho.

(I do agree that specific trumos general, but not because of the wording from rule compendium)

----------


## Dimers

> Specific beats general, so a spell-like ability such as _greater dispel magic_ that specifically says it can counterspell can counterspell.


I can understand that interpretation.  My thinking is that the 'general' here is that _greater dispel_ can counter and that the 'specific' is But Not When It's A SLA.  *shrug*  I'm not very invested, either way; I don't think I've actually played in a game where I've seen counterspelling used, so it doesn't feel like a big power difference to me.

----------


## Debatra

Counterspelling is useful _if you bother with it_. It's generally an underused mechanic for the simple reason that the game tends to reward acting rather than reacting. A counterspelled mage has simply lost their action. A dead mage gets no actions to lose.

----------


## Thurbane

I honestly don't know what to make of this joke monster. Let's say *LA +1* for now.

BTW, does anyone remember an old (1E maybe) Dragon mag where they statted up Ronald McDonald (under a slightly different name) as an archfiend, who runs a chain of restaurants serving Stench Kow burgers?  :Small Big Grin: 

Just tried searching for it on DragonDex, but no luck...

[edit] _Found it: Dragon # 120. Dining Out in the Hells: A fast-food guide to the Lower Planes

Ronnell MaughDonnell._ [/edit]

----------


## liquidformat

> I can understand that interpretation.  My thinking is that the 'general' here is that _greater dispel_ can counter and that the 'specific' is But Not When It's A SLA.  *shrug*  I'm not very invested, either way; I don't think I've actually played in a game where I've seen counterspelling used, so it doesn't feel like a big power difference to me.


Yeah this reflects my thoughts and experience as well.

----------


## Debatra

+0 - liquidformat, H_H_F_F, Remuko
+1 - Dimers, loky1109, Tzardok, Brackenlord, Thurbane
+2 - remetagross, Beni-Kujaku, ciopo
+3 - AsuraKyoko
+4 - Troacctid

Sorry I've been away for a while, but it seems we have a *+1*. Next on the docket is the Devil Sail

----------


## Debatra

Devil Sail

*Size & Type:* Large Magical Beast (Aquatic)
*Space/Reach:* 10'/20'
*HD:* 9, 18 Huge
*Speed:* Swim 20'
*Ability Scores:* Str +8, Dex -2, Con +8, Int -2, Wis -2, Cha -2 - Net +8, four penalties
*Natural Armor:* 0
*Natural Weapons:* One Primary Touch (1d10 acid, plus Con-based Fort or 2d4 Dex)
*Skill List:* Listen, Spot, Swim
*Body Shape:* Jellyfish
*Speech (Languages):* No
*CR:* 7
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* -0

First thing: They aren't devils. Second thing: The Devil Sail has more RHD than AC. _Zero_ natural armor.

So it can Improved Grab a creature at least one size category smaller than it, and it has a few PLAs. 3/day Dimension Slide and Painful Touch at ML 11, in addition to the attack/defense modes we can never figure out how to convert.

Finally, its Underwater Sense lets it detect any creature within 60' while under water. Though it's less effective at detecting creatures without nervous systems, like undead, oozes, and constructs. Such creatures can only be detected from 30' away. Figments never fool a Devil Sail under water, and there's no mention of that only being ones within range.

Yes, that's it. See you guys tomorrow.

----------


## Troacctid

Literally unplayable. Absolute garbage. Easy *-0*.

----------


## Thurbane

I'm not at all across psionics, but that looks like a lot of RHD for little gain. *LA -0* from me.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

Whaaaat? It has a touch attack Improved Grab with acid damage and a whopping +8 to ability scores! That alone should make it a +2! And since it's a magical beast, it has full BAB, so it's better than a fighter, so that's another +1. Oh wait, we aren't supposed to make believe we are at WotC? Okay, *LA -0* it is.

----------


## loky1109

I don't think it's totally unplayable, but yeah, *-Zero* here.

----------


## remetagross

I find the concept of a psionic jellyfish oddly fitting. That said, it's still going to be a -0.

----------


## Remuko

CR is 2 below HD? Yeah def *-0*. Honestly its still probably over CRed. This thing has what 8 AC? 10 -1 Dex -1 Size yeah? 8 AC even with 9d10+36 HP is just...really bad. even at CR 5 this might be weak lol

----------


## ciopo

It doesn't even have the saving grace of more than one touchy feely when full attacking

----------


## Troacctid

> I don't think it's totally unplayable, but yeah, *-Zero* here.


I think being unable to move and being unable to breathe are something of a sticking point.

----------


## Tzardok

Yeah, well, maybe don't play a jellyfish in a landbound campaign.

----------


## loky1109

> I think being unable to move and being unable to breathe are something of a sticking point.


Devil Sail can say exactly the same for any land dweller.

----------


## Troacctid

> Yeah, well, maybe don't play a jellyfish in a landbound campaign.





> Devil Sail can say exactly the same for any land dweller.


Implying that there exist D&D campaigns taking place entirely underwater? Sounds fake to me. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me about some mythical campaign that takes place entirely within dead magic zones.

----------


## Tzardok

> Implying that there exist D&D campaigns taking place entirely underwater? Sounds fake to me. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me about some mythical campaign that takes place entirely within dead magic zones.


I am playing one right now. It's called "Real Life".  :Small Tongue:

----------


## ciopo

> I am playing one right now. It's called "Real Life".


That's what we want you to believe

----------


## liquidformat

pretty easy *-0*

----------


## Debatra

*-0*. Next is the Diamondback Viper... aberration.

----------


## Debatra

Diamondback Viper

Ah, I see. It's a pun. Yes, the gem is part of its body.
*Size & Type:* Tiny Aberration
*Space/Reach:* 2.5'/0'
*HD:* 1/2
*Speed:* 5', Fly 20' (Clumsy)
*Ability Scores:* Str -8, Dex +10, Con +0, Int +4, Wis +0, Cha +2 - Net +8, one penalty
*Natural Armor:* 4
*Natural Weapons:* Three Primary Bites (1d4 plus poison), one Secondary Tail Slap (1d6)
*Skill List:* Bluff, Disguise, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Tumble
*Body Shape:* Three-headed winged snake with a gemstone shell.
*Speech (Languages):* Yes (Common, Draconic, Terran)
*CR:* 1
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* +2

Scent caps off the chassis. For a 1/2-HD creature, this is actually pretty nice. Interestingly, the wings are only for "minimal steering" during flight. There's a bladder full of lighter-than-air gasses in its shell.

Its poison bites have both initial and secondary damage of 1d6 Charisma damage, and for bonus points are flavored as hallucinogenic.

It has a "Jet" ability that lets it move "backward" 80' through the air once per round as a full-round action. Good thing 3.5 doesn't have rules for what direction you're facing. Or maybe 160'. Depends on how exactly "a double move action, at a speed of 80 feet" works in 3.0. Double-moving with 80' speed in 3.5 means you're moving 160', but I'm not sure of the minutia of 3.0. Either way it's useful.




> The text of Jet is copied from the kraken. It's text said in 3.0: "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a double move action, at a speed of 280 feet." This was changed in 3.5 to "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 280 feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting."


Thanks, Tzardok.

----------


## Thurbane

Interesting one.

Such a sloppy, quickly written 3E monster, but it still has potential as a playable race, I guess:

Tiny Aberration1/2 RHD: so should be swapped out for class level5 ft speed, fly 20 ft (clumsy), plus jet backwards at 80 (or 160) feet+4 natural AC3 bites 1d4 + poison (1d6 Cha/1d6 Cha), tail slap 1d6Scent, darkvision 60 ftStr -8, Dex +10, Int +4, Cha +2: net +8.OKish racial skill list (not that this applies unless you advance by HD).Has Weapon Finesse and Multiattack listed as feats: may be safe to assume that Weapon Finesse is a bonus feat, as it often is for tiny creatures.
They rarely speak (which is not the same as unable to speak). Very nonstandard body shape, and no manipulative digits to speak of.

The ability mods alone make this fairly attractive, with no RHD looming over you once you start taking class levels. 4 natural attacks, 3 with poison, are also decent. Flight is nice, even though it's clumsy and not very fast (but jet seems to help). +4 natural AC plus size mod to AC, on top of +10 to Dex.

Not sure what your progression here would be? Maybe caster, maybe skillmonkey?

I'll give this a tentative *LA +2* for the moment: lots of good stuff, offset mainly by body shape issues. I could be argued upwards, but I don't think I'd go below +2.

----------


## danielxcutter

Three bites means Rapidstrike is a thing, which is very nice.

----------


## ciopo

> It has a "Jet" ability that lets it move "backward" 80' through the air once per round as a full-round action. Good thing 3.5 doesn't have rules for what direction you're facing. Or maybe 160'. Depends on how exactly "a double move action, at a speed of 80 feet" works in 3.0. Double-moving with 80' speed in 3.5 means you're moving 160', but I'm not sure of the minutia of 3.0. Either way it's useful.


With clumsy manouvrability, facing is still somewhat relevant

----------


## Batcathat

> Diamondback Viper
> 
> Ah, I see. It's a pun. Yes, the gem is part of its body.


I must admit, when I first saw the image I thought "Why does this monster have a D20?". 

And now I sort of wonder if there's some really rich roleplayer out there with diamond dice...

----------


## Thurbane

Am I correct in recalling that an attack must do damage to deliver poison?

1d4-4? Minimum is 1 damage on a successful hit, right?

----------


## danielxcutter

I think part of the "cats kill commoners" thing is that they still do 1 damage, so probably.

----------


## H_H_F_F

Tiny size, type, flight, and ability scores alone make this a very tempting choice for a sneak or a caster type (there's a Savage Species feat for multi-headed casters, IIRC) 

Add in the natural armor, the cute disengage/chase with jet, and the truly excellent early-game poison spam... this is good. 

The main downside is the lack of hands, which is significant. Slow, crappy movement plays a sidekick.

*LA +2* seems solid, I think.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

+10 dex and 4 natural armor is great at low level, and no HD makes this creature pretty good as a PC. The poison is also extremely good (1d6 Cha times 3 for the three bites? Count me in! That will disable a heck of a lot of enemies, even later on) That said, no manipulators will quickly become a problem, and for someone that wants to be a rogue (or a swordsage), Tiny size and 20ft clumsy flying is atrocious (no staying in place for flanking, no threatening the opponent, and provokes whenever it attacks). This prevents it from being absolutely broken, and you can't even take Prehensile Tail with such a low strength. LA+2 seems honestly a bit high to me. I'll vote for *LA +1*.


Also, can I just say that I love that they work with Xorns? A lone gem is really the best way to attract desperate, hungry Xorns so that they work with you.

----------


## loky1109

I'm vote for *+1*, too.

----------


## Debatra

> +10 dex and 4 natural armor is great at low level, and no HD makes this creature pretty good as a PC. The poison is also extremely good (1d6 Cha times 3 for the three bites? Count me in! That will disable a heck of a lot of enemies, even later on) That said, no manipulators will quickly become a problem, and for someone that wants to be a rogue (or a swordsage), Tiny size and 20ft clumsy flying is atrocious (no staying in place for flanking, no threatening the opponent, and provokes whenever it attacks). This prevents it from being absolutely broken, and you can't even take Prehensile Tail with such a low strength. LA+2 seems honestly a bit high to me. I'll vote for *LA +1*.
> 
> 
> Also, can I just say that I love that they work with Xorns? A lone gem is really the best way to attract desperate, hungry Xorns so that they work with you.


It doesn't provoke just by attacking, and it has Tumble as a class skill to mitigate the potential AoOs from needing to move into enemy spaces.

On the other hand, it's also not just no staying in place to flank, but no flanking period.

----------


## Caelestion

I think *LA +2* is solid here, yes.  You're only going to play this creature with specific builds, but what you get out of it is very good.

----------


## Tzardok

> It has a "Jet" ability that lets it move "backward" 80' through the air once per round as a full-round action. Good thing 3.5 doesn't have rules for what direction you're facing. Or maybe 160'. Depends on how exactly "a double move action, at a speed of 80 feet" works in 3.0. Double-moving with 80' speed in 3.5 means you're moving 160', but I'm not sure of the minutia of 3.0. Either way it's useful.


The text of Jet is copied from the kraken. Its text said in 3.0: "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a double move action, at a speed of 280 feet." This was changed in 3.5 to "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 280 feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting."

----------


## liquidformat

I really like this punny snake and think the best path forward is Druid, between venomfire and fangshield druid giving you hands its hard to argue with it and maybe Avenger druid for a bit extra speed and to scrap the animal companion. I would probably take a level of barbarian to snag pounce and maybe take Ferocity in place of rage, if you have a generous DM you could probably trade your avenger druid rage for Ferocity too. Maybe swordsage dip and shadow blade to over come your horrible str penalty. Seems like Surrogate Spellcasting and eschew materials will be a feat tax if you want to do any casting, on the plus side with Surrogate spellcasting you don't need nature spell. Psionics will be a good choice too and the little snake makes a good Psion as well. Being tiny makes the Aberration subtype not very useful since you can't leverage it very well for alter self and you already have a pretty good form.

You can't flank so without leveraging invisibility and flatfooted opponents your going to find sneak attacking to be a headache so SA isn't such a great choice for you. A better choice would probably Invisible Fist Monk/Ninja, and most DMs do allow Ninja to take place for Ascetic Rogue feat so you could have a pretty solid build there with a few dips into unarmed swordsage + shadow blade feat and maybe warblade for good measure. The other option there is probably barbarian/scout/mystic ranger build for a pouncing charger build picking up venomfire for good measure, focusing your feats around fly by attack and things like Improved Flight and air heritage to increase your flying capabilities.

Anyways, the big glaring downsides of the snake is that it is slow, has no hands, str penalty, 1 to 2 feat tax if you want to be a caster (Surrogate spellcasting and eschew materials), and will probably be missing some item slots (I think you will have 3 neck slots, 1 ring/belt, one body/armor slot, and maybe a cape/clock?). On the upside no RHD, good ability scores, flying and great AC. Though you have four natural attacks you will either be ignoring them completely in favor of casting or you will have to put some decent resources in to shoring up your -8 str one way or another. The jet ability also seems pretty useless except as a panic button. I think *+1 LA* might be right here, you have some nice things but whether you go caster or melee you have some issues that have to be overcome the largest being no hands and that one can't be dealt with for at least 5 levels so you will be ECL 6 + before you can do things like open doors...

----------


## Remuko

I think this is clearly better than +0 and seems everyone so far agrees. I don't think its quite +2 like everyone else says. *My vote is* *+1* for now. I'll leave the possibility for revision if someone brings up something convincing but atm I don't expect to change my mind.

----------


## Troacctid

I think this is an easy *+2*. Very high stats and a couple strong abilities.

----------


## remetagross

It's definitely an *LA+2* for a Rogue chassis. for the +10 Dex alone, but the +4 Int does not hurt, as do three natural attacks and an extraordinary flight speed.

----------


## AsuraKyoko

Yeah, I think this is a pretty clear *+2*, it gets a lot, and its stat boosts are pretty high.

----------


## Dimers

No hips/shoulders/hands basically means it can't carry anything, including a bag of holding or handy haversack which is a typical workaround for a low-Strength character.  Lack of hands interferes with some things adventurers do often -- manipulate rope, dig (whether with shovel or adamantine dagger), open doors, pull levers, direct horses, that kind of thing.  The unusual form makes you easily identifiable and causes some social problems.  Reach 0 is a serious disadvantage in melee combat -- where it needs to be if it wants to apply that very nice poison -- and obviously this critter won't be using projectile or thrown weapons.  And body slots are disadvantaged.

With all that said, the Dexterity is good for any class at all, the size is a nice defense and helps with stealth, having any fly speed at all is a big advantage in the early game, the poison is great because few creatures have lots of Cha, the natural armor excels for that size and lack of RHD, and scent is useful.

Being one spell level behind as a full caster hurts, especially when you're pressed hard toward being a full caster by your inherent restrictions.  And having one hit die in a 3rd-level game is super rough.  I have to vote *LA +1*.

----------


## Thurbane

> The text of Jet is copied from the kraken. It's text said in 3.0: "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a double move action, at a speed of 280 feet." This was changed in 3.5 to "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 280 feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting."


That makes it a lot clearer, thank you for finding that.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

Multivoice is the Savage Species feat that lets you cast an extra spell/SLA in a round (in addition to your normal SLA, spell, or other special attack done with head, e.g. breath weapon) if you have multiple heads. Which is amazing, but it's got a lot of prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved TWF, Multiattack, and Quicken Spell. Those last two are probably worth taking anyway, but a typical Diamondback won't be getting much use out of the TWF line.

----------


## Tzardok

> That makes it a lot clearer, thank you for finding that.


No problem. The ability sounded familiar, so I went straight to the kraken to see wether it was actually the same. And lo and behold, it was the same.

----------


## Caelestion

> And having one hit die in a 3rd-level game is super rough.  I have to vote *LA +1*.


Well, _yeah_, that _is_ the side-effect of having +2 LA.  That's not a weakness: that's literally part of the point.

----------


## Remuko

> Well, _yeah_, that _is_ the side-effect of having +2 LA.  That's not a weakness: that's literally part of the point.


the point of LA is to balance things. if it makes them so weak as to be unplayable thats not balanced. i think they were implying with +2 its too frail to be used at all therefore its not a balanced LA.

----------


## Troacctid

> the point of LA is to balance things. if it makes them so weak as to be unplayable thats not balanced. i think they were implying with +2 its too frail to be used at all therefore its not a balanced LA.


It's definitely not so weak as to be unplayable at +2. I mean, the stats alone are well above any existing +1 LA options short of half-minotaur, and as for frailness, its racial stats give it +11 AC and +5 Reflex. It's not like it has a Con penalty.

----------


## Remuko

> It's definitely not so weak as to be unplayable at +2. I mean, the stats alone are well above any existing +1 LA options short of half-minotaur, and as for frailness, its racial stats give it +11 AC and +5 Reflex. It's not like it has a Con penalty.


Yup I'm not necessarily saying its right but that's what I read at the intent behind their comment which seemed to be misunderstood by the person I was replying to.

----------


## liquidformat

> It's definitely not so weak as to be unplayable at +2. I mean, the stats alone are well above any existing +1 LA options short of half-minotaur, and as for frailness, its racial stats give it +11 AC and +5 Reflex. It's not like it has a Con penalty.


Yeah, however, the half-Minotaur has hands, the ability to flank, can cast spells without feat taxes, can carry items, and isn't missing over half the item slots. This thing isn't all positives and it has some decently large negatives to deal with.

----------


## Troacctid

> Yeah, however, the half-Minotaur has hands, the ability to flank, can cast spells without feat taxes, can carry items, and isn't missing over half the item slots. This thing isn't all positives and it has some decently large negatives to deal with.


Just to be clear, half-minotaur is one of the top 3 LA +1 races in the entire game. If you had to be at least as good as half-minotaur to have +1 LA, nothing would be +1 LA.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> Just to be clear, half-minotaur is one of the top 3 LA +1 races in the entire game. If you had to be at least as good as half-minotaur to have +1 LA, nothing would be +1 LA.


Yes he is just arguing that if something is worse than the best LA+1 then it must not be LA+2. (Of course that's assuming Half-Minotaur is balanced as a +1 which it is anything but)

In the end it is much weaker than something that is much too strong for LA+1. Hence the debate between +1 and +2

----------


## Troacctid

If half-minotaur were +2 LA, it would still be one of the best +2 LAs in the game.

----------


## Thurbane

So, in people's opinions, what are the "best" LA +1 and LA +2 races with no RHD _we've_ assigned in these threads so far, for comparison?

----------


## liquidformat

> Just to be clear, half-minotaur is one of the top 3 LA +1 races in the entire game. If you had to be at least as good as half-minotaur to have +1 LA, nothing would be +1 LA.


Honestly I feel like you don't actually read other people's posts or just choose to ignore anything that contradicts your statement and this isn't the first time by far.

Anyways as I said already, the snake has great ability scores but it has a number of glaring issues that will need to be dealt with. One of the biggest being doing anything that requires hands and to go along with that carrying things, you can't deal with that at least until level 5 but more likely 8 to 10. This doesn't strike me as being one of the best choices at LA +1, any path you choose to go with this snake is going to require some investment to overcome its handicaps.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> So, in people's opinions, what are the "best" LA +1 and LA +2 races with no RHD _we've_ assigned in these threads so far, for comparison?


Well we really haven't assigned a lot of +1s and +2s to creatures without HD but if I had to choose I'd say the duergar for its high caster level and the nixie or the varoot for their SLA (3/day Alter Self for the varoot is really strong)

----------


## Thurbane

> Well we really haven't assigned a lot of +1s and +2s to creatures without HD but if I had to choose I'd say the duergar for its high caster level and the nixie or the varoot for their SLA (3/day Alter Self for the varoot is really strong)


Interesting: I'd definitely say this critter is better than Duergar, but not as good as a Varoot. 

I'm sticking with +2 as per my original post, FWIW.

----------


## Troacctid

Races that have gotten +1 with no HD (not including templates):
Animated Object (Small Wagon)
Darkmantle
Drow
Duergar
Formian Worker
Githyanki
Githzerai
Svirfneblin
Badger
Astral Construct, 1st-level
Half-Giant
Feytouched
Carcass Eater
Argent Spider, Tiny

Races that have gotten +2 with no HD (not including templates):
Grig
Nixie
Petal
Puppeteer
Dark Creeper
Nerra, Varoot
Shadow Asp

I'd personally say the best +2 is either the grig or the nixie, and the best +1 is the astral construct, or possibly the badger?

The most obvious comparison, though, is the shadow asp, as it has very similar base stats (with the shadow asp having higher Str, Con, and Wis while the diamondback has higher Int, Cha, and natural armor) and shares the snake body type. In comparison, the diamondback viper loses the shadow asp's ability to turn incorporeal for a limited time each day, but gains the ability to fly/jet, as well as the extra heads (and extra bites) and scent. IMO they're very close.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> The most obvious comparison, though, is the shadow asp, as it has very similar base stats (with the shadow asp having higher Str, Con, and Wis while the diamondback has higher Int, Cha, and natural armor) and shares the snake body type. In comparison, the diamondback viper loses the shadow asp's ability to turn incorporeal for a limited time each day, but gains the ability to fly/jet, as well as the extra heads (and extra bites) and scent. IMO they're very close.


I mean, the shadow asp was one vote away from being voted LA +1, so that's pretty close to our current situation. I don't feel like the ability to defeat some foes in a round (3 Cha-dealing bites is harsh, 4 with Rapidstrike) measures to the sheer versatility and utility of incorporealness. But yeah, with flight and higher intelligence, it may be slightly better. I'll change my vote to *LA+2*.

----------


## H_H_F_F

One of us, one of us!

----------


## Debatra

+2 - Thurbane, H_H_F_F, Caelestion, Troacctid, remetagross, AsuraKyoko, Beni-Kujaku
+1 - loky1109, liquidformat, Remuko, Dimers

Could have seen this going either way, but we ended up at *+2*. Next up is the Disembodied Spirit template.

----------


## Debatra

Disembodied Spirit

*Acquired or Inherited:* Acquired
*Applied To:* Any Aberration, Animal, Dragon, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, or Plant with at least 6 Charisma.
*Size & Type:* Gains Incorporeal subtype. Note that despite losing their Constitution score, the Type is unchanged. (Even the flavor text makes it clear these aren't "true undead".)
*Space/Reach:* Unchanged
*Hit Dice:* Max HP appears to be equal to base creature's _current_ HP at time of acquisition. This is probably abusable.
*Speed:* Fly speed equal to base creature's land speed, or its Fly speed if higher. Perfect Maneuverability. Existing movement modes are not explicitly lost, though being incorporeal may make walking on land difficult.
*Ability Scores:* Str -, Dex +0, Con -, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +0, no "penalties"
*Armor Class:* Lose natural armor, gain ChaMod to deflection, minimum 1.
*Skills:* Unchanged
*CR:* 0. Not "+0", but 0.
*WotC LA:* +0
*Our LA:* -0

So you gain this template by going through a special portal that sends your body and soul to different destinations. Needless to say, your equipment goes with your body.

Most notably, this template will cost you the ability to attack, and limit you to a single move action each round. You also can't speak.

In exchange, you get incorporeality (with all the usual benefits and drawbacks) and one special ability: Rejuvenation. Whenever you would be "destroyed", you get to make a level check against a flat DC of 16. Success allows the Disembodied Spirit to restore itself in 2d4 days. Though there is also a Ghost-esque "set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace" clause.

And hey, if you decide you don't like being a Disembodied Spirit, you can be restored with Resurrection or True Res. Though you still need your old body (or a piece of it) for regular Resurrection.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Most notably, this template will cost you the ability to speak.


I would think the most notable aspect of a disembodied spirit is its inability to attack or take standard actions. Or are we just asterisking that away? It does make the template completely unplayable in anything even remotely resembling a normal game.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

Sooooo. You become incorporeal. That's all, but that's much. You don't even change type? Really? The fact that you lose your Con and that you're considered to be destroyed instead of killed makes me think you should have. And the fact that it's CR 0 makes me think you should not have kept the base creature's special attacks and qualities. But hey, here we are. 

The fact that you can't affect corporeal items without something like a ghost touch gauntlet is a problem, but the simple fact that you're fully incorporeal without losing any important stats (you don't care about Constitution, you keep your max HP) or any spellcasting, without Undead weaknesses (also without undead immunities) is such a boon that I don't see it being worth less than *LA+2*. Oh, yeah, also you're immortal. Not the biggest deal, since your party loses anyway, but it may become very interesting if the mentioned check can be made by a standard action and not every 2d4 days (the wording is confusing). 

Also the whole "the only way to destroy a disembodied spirit is to set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace" seems akwardly copied from Ghost. And doesn't apply here. We know exactly what prevents them from resting, it's that they are stuck behind bars of force after a wizard created an evil portal to separate their spirit from their body!


EDIT: Oh, didn't see the fact that you can only make a move action per turn. Yeah, that's a problem. This list may be useful.

----------


## Tzardok

You've forgot one trait: 


> *Attack:* A disembodied spirit has no attacks and can make only a single move action each turn.


I'm not sure, but I don't think this template is worth anything.

----------


## loky1109

> I would think the most notable aspect of a disembodied spirit is its inability to attack or take standard actions. Or are we just asterisking that away? It does make the template completely unplayable in anything even remotely resembling a normal game.


Beholder + Master of the Unseen Hand.
I vote for *+1*. Maybe with asterisk.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> You've forgot one trait: 
> 
> I'm not sure, but I don't think this template is worth anything.


Counterpoint: Dragonborn of Bahamut.

You are still a humanoid, and DoB doesn't require much beyond being non-evil. You lose all your traits (including "can't attack"), and you keep your subtype. 
What? We have an officially published asterisk-on-a-stick, why not use it?

Also going through the Rite of Rebirth when you're basically a ghost is delightfully ironic.





> Beholder + Master of the Unseen Hand.
> I vote for *+1*. Maybe with asterisk.


Are we considering a disembodied spirit can make free actions? What about swift actions? I mean, "only a single move action each turn" is pretty exclusive.

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## Debatra

> I would think the most notable aspect of a disembodied spirit is its inability to attack or take standard actions. Or are we just asterisking that away? It does make the template completely unplayable in anything even remotely resembling a normal game.


I... somehow managed to miss that giant red flag waving around.

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## PoeticallyPsyco

> Are we considering a disembodied spirit can make free actions? What about swift actions? I mean, "only a single move action each turn" is pretty exclusive.


I'd read that as "can't take 2 move actions in a turn", not "is unable to take non-move actions". Could technically be read either way, but the first one makes more sense since they specified that it can't take standard actions separately. Changed my mind after looking at the text more closely. I think this can't take actions other than a single move action per turn.

If we don't asterisk that (or take into account fixes like Dragonborn), this is *-0*. You could go all in on Swarm damage or something else that doesn't require actions, but outside of that, incorporeality is never going to be worth most of your actions.

If we do asterisk it, well, it's worse than Ghost, but is it worse enough to be a *+1**? Probably, but maybe not. I'm very open to having my mind changed on that.

----------


## loky1109

> Are we considering a disembodied spirit can make free actions? What about swift actions? I mean, "only a single move action each turn" is pretty exclusive.


I had debating about it with matty_p. )))
Swift is out scope, because it's 3.0, so let's talk about free. One of free action is talk, but DS had specific clarification about talking. It doesn't need if DS can't do free actions.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> I'd read that as "can't take 2 move actions in a turn", not "is unable to take non-move actions". Could technically be read either way, but the first one makes more sense since they specified that it can't take standard actions separately.
> 
> If we don't asterisk that (or take into account fixes like Dragonborn), this is *-0*. You could go all in on Swarm damage or something else that doesn't require actions, but outside of that, incorporeality is never going to be worth most of your actions.
> 
> If we do asterisk it, well, it's worse than Ghost, but is it worse enough to be a *+1**? Probably, but maybe not. I'm very open to having my mind changed on that.


The fact that it is CR 0 pretty clearly points in the direction that they are not supposed to contribute in any way in a fight, so "unable to take non-move actions" seems  the most reasonable interpretation of RAI.




> I had debating about it with matty_p. )))
> Swift is out scope, because it's 3.0, so let's talk about free. One of free action is talk, but DS had specific clarification about talking. It doesn't need if DS can't do free actions.


Aaaaah! I was wondering why a way to immediately reset a CR back to 0 was not abused in every iteration of VC! Yeah, Free actions seem to be fair game, but most probably not swift ones. 

Besides a beholder, a swarm may be interesting (an incorporeal swarm would be such a pain to kill, or to reduce to 0 HP), or a creature with some interesting aura. Of course, something with a gaze attack would be perfect. How do you feel about fighting an incorporeal medusa?

----------


## liquidformat

So to start off this thing needs an asterisk for only being able to take single move actions; if that is left on then this is an easy *-0 LA* template.

Moving on, so you get the incorporeal subtype and nothing else, not even the ability to manifest or possession or any of those fun bells and whistles the ghost template gives you so you are left up to what feats to take from Ghost walk. Unless you are in an extremely niche game that means this template is a straight up -0 on anything that isn't a caster. If I am understanding incorporeal correctly even as a caster, besides positive energy, negative energy, force effects (and ghost touched weapons) any damaging spell you use has a 50% chance to be ignored. Also since you are incapable of speech that means all spells with Verbal components are out? So you have to cherry pick spells with no verbal components, and no material components, or use silent spell and Eschew Materials. This seems like enough negatives that *+1* LA* seems about right, I would be open to increasing that but I haven't seen any arguments as to why it should be higher yet.

----------


## loky1109

I think DS actually should not lose its Con, it looks like lazy copy-paste from Ghost.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> Moving on, so you get the incorporeal subtype and nothing else, not even the ability to manifest or possession or any of those fun bells and whistles the ghost template gives you so you are left up to what feats to take from Ghost walk. Unless you are in an extremely niche game that means this template is a straight up -0 on anything that isn't a caster. If I am understanding incorporeal correctly even as a caster, besides positive energy, negative energy, force effects (and ghost touched weapons) any damaging spell you use has a 50% chance to be ignored. Also since you are incapable of speech that means all spells with Verbal components are out? So you have to cherry pick spells with no verbal components, and no material components, or use silent spell and Eschew Materials. This seems like enough negatives that *+0* LA* seems about right, I would be open to increasing that but I haven't seen any arguments as to why it should be higher yet.


Well, no. Incorporeal can't be affected by lots of things, but an incorporeal creature is on the material plane, its spells (or whatever other effects it creates) are fully felt by its opponents. And the Verbal components are only a problem if you go spellcaster. Warlocks exist, psionic classes too, dragonfire adepts, and even bards who can fulfill verbal components with music, all will enjoy the full versatility, utility and defensive benefits of being incorporeal and unaffected by everything anything below ECL 7 throws at them, while losing none of their important abilities. As I said higher, this is worse than a ghost, but being incorporeal is still extremely good, and should warrant *LA +2** in my opinion. Incorporeal creatures can basically always have concealment, infiltrate any castle or camp, stave off any restraints or entanglements, and beat any number of mooks. A ghost touch gauntlet will allow the spirit to manipulate items for 4k gp. That's a problem, but really not that much of one, especially if you compensate with spells.

That said, I agree that except for a specific challenge, I don't see any creature who would really benefit from losing its standard, even if it becomes incorporeal afterwards. *LA-0*

----------


## ciopo

"A disembodied spirit has no attacks and can make only a single move action each turn."

What happens out of initiative? can it do (whatever he's otherwise allowed) if it's not taking a turn? if we take feats to allow spellcasting, can it , for example, summon monsters while out of initiative?

it is not an attack after all, and we aren't acting in the abstraction of "turn"

let's say a disembodied spirit has the ghostly grasp feat, the craft wondrous items feat and the relevant prerequisites, could it craft items? that isn't "an action"


It all boils down to how descriptive of the overall creature we take that paragraph present in the attacks section

----------


## liquidformat

> Well, no. Incorporeal can't be affected by lots of things, *but an incorporeal creature is on the material plane**LA-0*


I thought default for ghosts and Incorporeal creatures is the ethereal plane, no? I don't see anything inside the article that specifically says it is on either the material or ethereal plane and it has no ability to manifest.

----------


## Tzardok

> I thought default for ghosts and Incorporeal creatures is the ethereal plane, no? I don't see anything inside the article that specifically says it is on either the material or ethereal plane and it has no ability to manifest.


No. Incorporeal creatures are by default on the Material. Ghosts are on the Ethereal, but they are corporeal there. When a ghost manifests, it appears as an incorporeal creature on the Material, but at the same time stays corporeal on the Ethereal.

Edit: Libris Mortis spends half a chapter talking about the differences between being incorporeal and being on the Ethereal.

----------


## liquidformat

> No. Incorporeal creatures are by default on the Material. Ghosts are on the Ethereal, but they are corporeal there. When a ghost manifests, it appears as an incorporeal creature on the Material, but at the same time stays corporeal on the Ethereal.
> 
> Edit: Libris Mortis spends half a chapter talking about the differences between being incorporeal and being on the Ethereal.


Ok that is much better than I initially thought, I think this is a *+1* LA* then.

----------


## ciopo

have there been other istances where the LA assignment thread increased  the LA compared to the WOTC one? I know some tmeplates I woulnd't mind not being +0 *cough unseelie fey cough*

Anyway, incorporeality, flight, CHA to AC, immunity to STR and CON damage in exchange of a very significant limitation, I'm going for *-0*

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## Troacctid

*+0* is my vote, but I think -0 is not unreasonable given that it exists already at +0 and has no relevant char-op applications that I know of. Maybe on a marshal cohort so that they can do their auras without having to worry about getting attacked?

I prefer +0 to be safe. There are a lot of monsters that this thread is adding to the pool of playable races, and only a few of them need to have a critical mass of actionless powers in order to be viable as disembodied spirits. I'm not sure which monsters, but I can easily conceive of their existence, and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

----------


## Remuko

feels *easy -0* to me. I'm not sure if it would even be +0 if we removed the "cant do anything but move" restriction tbh

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## PoeticallyPsyco

> have there been other istances where the LA assignment thread increased  the LA compared to the WOTC one? I know some tmeplates I woulnd't mind not being +0 *cough unseelie fey cough*


Early on in the Fiend Folio, there was a lizard-man type monster with 3RHD. We gave it +1 LA, but Wizards had originally given it ECL 3. Can't remember its name, though.

----------


## H_H_F_F

I'm voting *-0*. The restriction is beyond terrible.

----------


## Thurbane

ShurikVch made a thread exploring possibilities of this template: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...rit&p=25188031

It was concluded you really need to jump through hoops to make it remotely effective at doing much of anything, and even then, there are a few ways the RAW can be read on it's action and attack limitations.

All in all, I'm inclined to rate this *LA -0*. Being incorporeal is nice, as is a chance to auto return after being destroyed, but there are better and far more effective ways of getting both. This template just has too many inbuilt drawbacks...

----------


## Tzardok

Yeah. This is the kind of template that you give a character for a single session until the party manages to recover the body. -0 from me.

----------


## remetagross

It's completely useless, except maybe on your Familiar to whom you're linked by Telepathy so that you don't risk losing a bunch of XP that often since it's more difficult to kill, and you get a perfect scout. But still, meh. *LA-0* for a PC.

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## Beni-Kujaku

> ShurikVch made a thread exploring possibilities of this template: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...rit&p=25188031
> 
> It was concluded you really need to jump through hoops to make it remotely effective at doing much of anything, and even then, there are a few ways the RAW can be read on it's action and attack limitations.
> 
> All in all, I'm inclined to rate this *LA -0*. Being incorporeal is nice, as is a chance to auto return after being destroyed, but there are better and far more effective ways of getting both. This template just has too many inbuilt drawbacks...


This thread made a lot more creatures available. For example, take the disembodied spirit of a Dread Blossom Swarm. You force distraction with your swarm attack, and you have an inhaled poison around you for paralysis. You don't need standard actions, what you need is to not be killed by fire or cold, and Disembodied Spirit does just that. Then you take one level of dragon shaman (the particular swarm anatomy of being able to take up any 4 adjacent squares makes the auras especially potent, and they are large enough that you can position yourself to help allies and poison enemies), one of swordsage and/or two of ardent to move around more easily and to get White Raven Tactics, one or two of incarnate for soulspark familiar, lucky dice and spellward shirt, then you go warchief and increase all your friends strength in combat. Or forsaker to really be invincible. Or Beastmaster with Share Soulmeld to give them all mage's spectacles. Or Artificer (crafting isn't an action per se). There are things to do, and being incorporeal is really good all by itself.

----------


## Caelestion

Being incorporeal is a big bonus, and obviously we have to asterisk the "can only take move actions" bit if we want it to actually be played, which is after all the point of this thread.  *LA +1**.

----------


## Debatra

I'm not sure this thing needs an asterisk for its limited actions. I particularly disagree that the point of these threads is that we want these monsters to be played. We're rating their playability, not making them playable. If the goal were to make them playable, then most -0 monsters would then end up getting a discussion on what sorts of buffs or reduced RHD would bring them up to a half-decent +0 or +0*. (For those curious about my sig, it's just because I feel like that phrase rolls off the tongue better than "Rating the Playability of Monsters Since 2016".)




> The asterisk is not necessarily 'this will be tricky to normally use'. It denotes 'this has an ability that would be completely broken if allowed, and the rating assumes you remove it'.
> 
> The problem with 'low movement speed' and 'has to find a host' is that there's no real trait to remove. Take away 1 ft. movement and... replace it with a basic human walking pace? Remove the symbiont's power restrictions when unattached? There's no obvious way to remove 
> 
> Furthermore: we've rated monsters that wouldn't fit in most dungeons, monsters that need water to breathe, monsters that die from water, monsters that would get run out of any civilized place, and monsters that explode if you leave them out in the sun. None of those traits got them asterisk-ed, because the underlying assumption that they'd only be played in the campaigns that could accommodate them.
> 
> What monsters _did_ get an asterisk? Those whose abilities would innately and effortlessly disrupt _any_ campaign. A dryad can't be used in any campaign that involves 'going places'. An efreet can't be used in any campaign that involves, well, the PCs having goals.


But if you guys feel as though its warranted here, we'll let the votes decide. But I'm also throwing in my own vote for *-0*, no asterisk.

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## liquidformat

I am fine with it either way, I just wanted to comment on the differences between the two options. I think in this case we can probably leave on the crippling action economy since it is still playable and there are work arounds. As pointed out I don't think this is a case where an asterisk is needed, so *-0 LA* it is.

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## danielxcutter

This is one of the rare cases where I feel confident to vote instead of just lurking and making the occasional comment.

*LA -0, no asterisk*; this is not the kind of case where we want to arbitrarily change things about it in order to make playable.

----------


## Dimers

The template itself is unadulterated junk.  The fact that there are specific ways to make it less junky doesn't really signify.  *LA -0*.

----------


## TiaC

Unmodified, it's a clear *-0*. If you don't specifically build around it, your character is useless, and even if you do, you could have made something better with less effort without it. 

However, it is such a "You don't get to interact with the campaign" ability that I think it should be asterisked and given a *+1**. You can't speak, can't use most skills, can't attack, can't use most class abilities, and the most basic reading of the ability disallows swift and free actions as well. It's a simple deletion that's not comparable to the amount of work needed to bring most -0 monsters up to +0.

----------


## Debatra

Life springs things on you sometimes.

+1 - loky1109
+0 - Troacctid
-0 - PoeticallyPsyco, Beni-Kujaku, ciopo, Remuko, H_H_F_F, Thurbane, Tzardok, remetagross, Debatra, liquidformat, danielxcutter, Dimers

Potential Asterisk Votes
+1* - PoeticallyPsyco, liquidformat (but prefers -0 no asterisk), Caelestion, TiaC
+2* - Beni-Kujaku

Next up is the Dracolisk. No, that's Dracoli*sk*.

----------


## Debatra

Dracolisk
(Download Link)

*Size & Type:* Large Outsider (Extraplanar)
*Space/Reach:* 10'/10'
*HD:* 18
*Speed:* 20', Fly 40' (Average)
*Ability Scores:* Str +22, Dex -2, Con +12, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +6 - Net +32, two penalties
*Natural Armor:* Presumably 13.
*Natural Weapons:* One Primary Bite (1d10 - the listed one has Improved Natural Attack as a non-bonus feat for 2d8), two Secondary Claws (1d6)
*Skill List:* Hide (+20 in "the cavern", which I will be generous and expand to caves in general because I can't find anything special about "the cavern" in question.), Listen, Spot
*Body Shape:* Eight-legged dragon.
*Speech (Languages):* Yes (Draconic)
*CR:* 14
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* -0

From the same module as the Cauchimera, and having an uneasy alliance with them in the book as well, this creature is the offspring of a Black Dragon (which we gave -0 across the board of age categories) and a Greater Abyssal Basilisk (also -0, though the regular Basilisk got +1). Let's see if it's any better than the sum of its ancestry.

DR 10/magic may as well not even be there at this level. SR 23 is bad, but not completely useless. It's immune to acid, and resists both fire and cold by ten. In addition to the 60' Darkvision all Outsiders have, the Dracolisk also has Low-Light Vision.

Once per day, they can Smite a good creature for an extra handful of damage. Not really impressive at this level, but it's a smite attack. Also once per day they can use a 60' line of acid breath, dealing 6d8 damage, with a Constitution-based reflex save for half.

And of course, there's the petrifying gaze attack. Anything within 30' that looks at this thing makes a Charisma-based fortitude save to avoid being permanently turned to stone.

Wait a minute... This thing is literally just an Abyssal Greater Basilisk with a slightly worse version of the Half-Dragon template. No listed immunity to sleep or paralysis, but it appears to have enough HP to require D12s for an average roll (Outsiders normally have D8s, but the AGB already had D10s.) And the fact that its type isn't changed to Dragon leaves it without a lot of support that the template would normally give it access to. ...And it also lets it take the template "for real" in order to double-up on the benefits if you really want to do that. (Actually, come to think of it, there isn't explicitly a restriction against Dragons taking the Half-Dragon template anyway. Weird.) We gave the Half-Dragon template +2, but what happens when you add that to a -0 creature?

----------


## danielxcutter

This thing would be a *lot* better if it didnt have 18 bloody RHD.

----------


## Dimers

"Atk options" lists Blind-Fight, so maybe you get that as a bonus feat?

Will save seems to be miscalculated; outsiders (and also dragons) have all good saves and the example creature has Iron Will, so the listed +9 is four points short of the +13 that it should be for Wisdom 10.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

You've got a gaze attack with short range and no particular way to get into range quickly.  It's party-unfriendly and it's the only reason you have to raise your Charisma.  Your one-per-day breath weapon is meaningless at this level.  You've got good hit points and Fortitude from Constitution.  Strength is helpful for a beatstick but not really comparable to the DPR value of, say, warblade maneuvers or totemist melds at this level.  You're vulnerable to _dismissal_ and the like.  Outsider skill points, but with a serious Int penalty and few class skills to spend them on.  Your ability to manipulate objects is questionable, and having no innate way to change from Large size will occasionally be a problem.

This is a pretty plain *LA -0*.  It doesn't belong in a level 18 party; it really has no way to face near-epic challenges.  All it has going for it is good Constitution and acid immunity.

----------


## H_H_F_F

Outsider HD are good. That being said, 18 of them for this is still too much, I think. Obvious continuation... Crusader, probably? Two more levels of that would give it 6th level maneuvers at 20. 

I'm thinking this is probably a -0, but I'll wait for Thurbane's dissection to see if I missed anything.

----------


## loky1109

This is *-0*, but one of strong -0.

----------


## remetagross

Definitely a *-0* for me. The petrification trick is cute, but a lot of foes at CR 18 don't care for that, either because they're celestials, or incorporeal, or are beatsticks with a million HDs and 80 Con, and as such a sky-high Fort save. Nice catch for having noticed this dude just got the Half-dragon template put on!

----------


## Chaos Jackal

Would be decent... with maybe a third less HD.

As it stands, 18 is a whole lot to pay for so few perks, even if they're outsider RHD. You don't have enough levels to progress anything or promote any serious synergies, you're not actually a dragon so that's a bunch of tricks out the window and being a half decent beatstick means little at a level where you'll already have 9th-level maneuvers or will be oneshotting stuff left and right with charges or whatever. The petrification seems to be the only other big point outside of the mountain of Str, but it's not a particularly reliable point. This is *-0*.

----------


## Remuko

*easy -0*. how sad.

----------


## StevenC21

-0, definitely. 

Cool picture though.

----------


## liquidformat

> This is *-0*, but one of strong -0.


How is this in anyway a strong -0? If we cut its HD in half I am still thinking it would be -0 or maybe just barely +0 at that point. In no way is this what I expect of a monster that takes up 18 levels. This is an easy *-0 LA* As Debatra pointed out it is strictly worse than a Greater Abyssal Basilisk half dragon which still is an easy -0 LA.

----------


## loky1109

> How is this in anyway a strong -0? If we cut its HD in half I am still thinking it would be -0 or maybe just barely +0 at that point. In no way is this what I expect of a monster that takes up 18 levels. This is an easy *-0 LA* As Debatra pointed out it is strictly worse than a Greater Abyssal Basilisk half dragon which still is an easy -0 LA.


It's definitely isn't weak -0. )))
Not, for example, 30HD mindless undead.

----------


## Morphic tide

Comparing against "Big Dumb Fighters" it has enough +numbers to function, since +11 Strength modifier and AC does _silly_ things to the combat math, but there's no room for utilities save _maybe_ some incredibly ridiculous cheese with Ardent. So *LA -0* because you're stuck to the one note the monster has, for all I'm confident that it can get combat math working just fine.

The save-or-lose is not _irrelevant_, but does need _serious_ investment to have a good chance of working against any "big beater" with a strong Fort save, which is for whatever reason the very obvious majority at this point. 16 Charisma, Ability Focus, +6 Charisma enhancer, and Irresistable Gaze brings the DC to 32, turning it into a coin-flip to end a Balor before it even takes an action. And that's investment not being put into leveraging those numbers to kill whatever _doesn't_ get Petrified or desperately rummaging for ways to do literally anything but trivialize combat.

----------


## Thurbane

Without going into a detailed analysis, this has too many RHD for what it gets. I'm also voting *LA -0*.

Sidenote: interesting how this compares to the "official" 3.5 Dracolisk that appears in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, which is literally a half-black dragon/half advanced basilisk. CR 12, 18 HD, Large Dragon, Str 31, Dex 8, Con 22, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 13. When we played that module, it petrified the Druid's dog animal companion, which was under the effects of an Enlarge Animal at the time. None of us had the means to un-petrify it, so we were left with the logistics of getting a large stone dog statue out of a dungeon and back to town.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Debatra

Another clear *-0*. Next up is the Ectoplasmic Dragon.

----------


## Tzardok

Ugh. 3.0 psionics. _Again!_

----------


## Debatra

Ectoplasmic Dragon

*Size & Type:* Medium-Colossal Dragon (Fire)
*Space/Reach:* Presumably normal for its size.
*HD:* 8 (Medium, Wyrmling), 11 (Medium, Very Young), 14 (Large, Young), 17 (Large, Juvenile), 20 (Huge, Young Adult), 23 (Huge, Adult), 26 (Huge, Mature Adult), 29 (Huge, Old), 32 (Gargantuan, Very Old), 35 (Gargantuan, Ancient), 38 (Gargantuan, Wyrm), 41 (Colossal, Great Wyrm)
*Speed:* 40', Swim 80', Fly 150' (Poor) (Wyrmling - Juvenile), Fly 200' (Clumsy) (Young Adult - Old), Fly 250' (Clumsy) (Very Old - Great Wyrm)

*Ability Scores (Wyrmling):* Str +6, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +4, Wis +2, Cha +0 - Net +22, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Very Young):* Str +8, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +2 - Net +28, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Young):* Str +12, Dex +4, Con +8, Int +6, Wis +4, Cha +2 - Net +36, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Juvenile):* Str +14, Dex +4, Con +8, Int +6, Wis +6, Cha +4 - Net +42, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Young Adult):* Str +18, Dex +4, Con +10, Int +8, Wis +6, Cha +4 - Net +50, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Adult):* Str +20, Dex +4, Con +10, Int +8, Wis +8, Cha +6 - Net +56, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Mature Adult):* Str +22, Dex +4, Con +12, Int +10, Wis +8, Cha +6 - Net +62, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Old):* Str +24, Dex +4, Con +12, Int +14, Wis +12, Cha +10 - Net +76, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Very Old):* Str +28, Dex +4, Con +14, Int +16, Wis +12, Cha +10 - Net +84, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Ancient):* Str +30, Dex +4, Con +16, Int +18, Wis +14, Cha +12 - Net +94, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Wyrm):* Str +32, Dex +4, Con +18, Int +20, Wis +14, Cha +12 - Net +100, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Great Wyrm):* Str +36, Dex +4, Con +20, Int +22, Wis +16, Cha +14 - Net +112, no penalties

*Natural Armor:* Age Category RHD-1. I'm not listing them all after that monster of an ability score chart.
*Natural Weapons:* Standard True Dragon lineup.
*Skill List:*  Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (All), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device (Standard True Dragon list, no noted extras.)
*Body Shape:* Dragon
*Speech (Languages):* Yes (Draconic) (Not noted, but is true for all True Dragons.)
*CR:* 5-27
*WotC LA:* +4 (Wyrmling), +5 (Very Young), +6 (Young) - (Juvenile+)
*Our LA:* +1 (Wyrmling), +0 (Very Young and Young), -0 (Juvenile+)

A Dragon without scales, but instead a smooth, highly reflective hide. We of course have the standard True Dragon packages. Frightful Presence, a bunch of natural weapons, immunity to sleep and paralysis, etc.

Instead of immunity to an energy type (though they do have the Fire Subtype and all that entails), they are immune to the Dismiss Ectoplasm power. While very specific, this is one less save-or-die the Ectoplasmic Dragon needs to worry about. Though you could also not worry about it by not being ectoplasmic. They can also travel instantly between the Material and Astral planes as a standard action, with no listed limit on how often they may do so.

It has psi resistance 21 starting at 20-RHD Young Adulthood, which of course scales poorly and further into irrelevance as it ages. It gains damage reduction at the same age, but it never requires anything other than magic to overcome it. Instead of spellcasting as a sorcerer, it manifests as a Psion who chose Metacreativity as its discipline. Its ML starts at 1 when the Dragon becomes Young, then increases by two for each age category.

It also has a few Psi-Likes aside from the ever-inconvertible Attack/Defense modes: Very Young - Ectoplasmic Cocoon 3/day, Young - Chameleon 3/day, Juvenile - Negate Psionics 3/day, Adult - Dismiss Ectoplasm 3/day, Old - Energy Barrier 2/day, Ancient - Catapsi 1/day, Great Wyrm - Mass Cocoon 1/day. Saves are Int-based.

Their breath weapon is actually quite unusual, being more akin to a fireball than the normal cone or line. While not explicitly stated, their Fire subtype and the fact that the substance is called Whitefire leaves us with the obvious assumption. It deals 2d8 damage per age category, with the standard Con-based reflex save for half. Its maximum range and blast radius are both dependent on the Ectoplasmic Dragon's size, starting at a 40' range and 10' radius when the Dragon is a Medium-sized Wyrmling, and increasing by 20' and 5' per size category respectively.

Finally, a Young Adult Ectoplasmic Dragon can coat itself in a Whitefire Aura once per day as a standard action. It lasts one round per age category, and causes any creature that strikes it with a natural or handheld weapon to take damage in return, with a reflex save for half whose DC is noted to be equal to the Dragon's Frightful Presence. (Not based on the same formula, just "DC same as frightful presence". So I guess technically you could take Ability Focus (Frightful Presence) and double-up on the benefit?) The aura's damage starts at 5d4, and increases by another 5d4 every two age categories.

It's a True Dragon. Only three times have we ever not given one -0, and all three were Wyrmlings. (For the curious: White, Brass, and Silver each got +1.) Will the Ectoplasmic Dragon join that exclusive club?

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## remetagross

It will not. Starting at 8 RHDs is too high a price to pay: going into any form of casting class is doomed to failure, and the rest of the package is nice and all but less interesting than actual class features. The swim speed is nice. Maybe I'd give *LA+0* to the wyrmling.

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## Beni-Kujaku

> It will not. Starting at 8 RHDs is too high a price to pay: going into any form of casting class is doomed to failure, and the rest of the package is nice and all but less interesting than actual class features. The swim speed is nice. Maybe I'd give *LA+0* to the wyrmling.


I disagree. The ectoplasmic wyrmling has better stats than the Silver wyrmling (+4 in all physical stats, -2 Wis, -4 Cha), an obviously worse breath weapon and no Alternate Form, but way better movement options with a fast swimming speed and higher flying speed, and especially a planar travel ability. The astral Plane is great for scrying, buffing, for getting away, or for infiltrating enemy strongholds. If Silver got +1 with 7 RHD, I don't see why Ectoplasmic wouldn't get +0 with 8 RHD. Of course, -0 for all age categories above.

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## remetagross

You might have misread my post as advocating for LA-0? Because I'm for LA+0, as you seem to be too. I had forgotten the plane shifting power of these dragons in my assessment. It's a strong, useful ability. That is still an LA+0 in my opinion, but a pretty good one at that.

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## Thurbane

Imma sit this one out - I struggle with dragons and their age categories in terms of playability at the best of times; throw psionics into the mix, and I don't feel informed enough to vote.

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## Xanyo

Large amounts of HD are basically one of the special qualities of a dragon. They rely on those big piles of dice and base bonuses to make them a challenge for their intended CR. If I were writing a dragon class one of it's main features would be getting more HD than its level would normally indicate. Counting each HD as, say, 3/4 of a level.

In the context of this thread, that would be essentially a negative LA. Naturally the wyrmling is the most playable, but how are you going to play them? Sure, you've got some movement modes and some stats, a little armor and a mild breath weapon. At this level the value of flight starts to fall off - more and more opponents are going to have a response to someone trying to flap around just out of reach. You're fast, sure, but running away doesn't win a fight. Maybe you can build yourself for strafing. Just never go indoors.

Your fighter buddy may not have wings (unless he bought some) but his full plate is comparable to your armor. He may not have your stats (although he might for the important ones if he's a monster race or templated). He can use a bow. All you've got is a pile of numbers that, sure, they're nice. But they aren't class features.

Dragons of all sorts don't get anything particularly interesting until the HD is already approaching the epic boundary. The wyrmling can have a +0, cuz they still have room to try to build something. But beyond that I'm reasonably comfortable giving every dragon of every type (except steel or anything really weird I'm not aware of) a -0 for every age category past the first. Dragons are HD bloated - it's one of their defining features.

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## Morphic tide

> Your fighter buddy may not have wings (unless he bought some) but his full plate is comparable to your armor.


_The dragon can wear armor too!_ This is a recurring issue in these threads, people seem to constantly look at the monster statblock and assume that's the PC you're playing, but it's _not_. You get the full suite of chargen resources, you can select feats as desired, you can buy anything anyone else can even if quite a bit has markups, and there's the frequent ignoring of how much of quite a few perfectly playable builds are dedicated to _aping_ monster math _rather poorly_.

One to three levels (mainly Martial Adepts), basic WBL uses, and a Sovereign Archetype gets the damage output to "Actionable Threat", basic WBL brings to "Basically Immortal Without Specifically Countering Them" _disturbingly_ easily (you can even get a good Touch AC!), and a large Fly speed plus Astral travel give many, _many_ options in _actual gameplay_ where being able to get places you aren't supposed to be while having good combat numbers is plenty enough to start derailments. "Surprise Not-Quite-Clericzilla Dragon In Medium Mithral" can mess up all sorts of things.

Put me down for Wyrmling *+1*, Very Young and Young *+0*, rest *-0*. Not enough room to be flashy for the latter two, but it takes _very_ few levels of Martial Adept classes to get damage on track, and LA +1 doesn't mess that up. Which is there because Plane Shift takes a 9th level Cleric (or, more relevantly, Favored Soul, as "small selection of campaign-warping powers and still fine otherwise" like I'm worried of this is the very definition of t2), so the 8th level Wyrmling is early in provoking that _specific_ change and its rather lengthy downstream side-effects.

For reference, here's a thread of a guy vigorously crowbarring the giant official LAs into passable build stubs with varying levels of cheese, which _usually_ results in worse "dead" ECL than people are complaining about here. Dragons have quite a bit of stuff available to push past their base statblock, Wyrm of War in particular clears a lot of ground in Martial terms, giving Simple and Martial weapon proficiencies and Armor proficiencies, no mention of lacking shields. So yeah, even _without_ getting to the class level you can have a basic beatstick with the Astral shenanigans still online.

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## Troacctid

> _The dragon can wear armor too!_ This is a recurring issue in these threads, people seem to constantly look at the monster statblock and assume that's the PC you're playing, but it's _not_. You get the full suite of chargen resources, you can select feats as desired, you can buy anything anyone else can even if quite a bit has markups, and there's the frequent ignoring of how much of quite a few perfectly playable builds are dedicated to _aping_ monster math _rather poorly_.
> 
> One to three levels (mainly Martial Adepts), basic WBL uses, and a Sovereign Archetype gets the damage output to "Actionable Threat", basic WBL brings to "Basically Immortal Without Specifically Countering Them" _disturbingly_ easily (you can even get a good Touch AC!), and a large Fly speed plus Astral travel give many, _many_ options in _actual gameplay_ where being able to get places you aren't supposed to be while having good combat numbers is plenty enough to start derailments. "Surprise Not-Quite-Clericzilla Dragon In Medium Mithral" can mess up all sorts of things.
> 
> Put me down for Wyrmling *+1*, Very Young and Young *+0*, rest *-0*. Not enough room to be flashy for the latter two, but it takes _very_ few levels of Martial Adept classes to get damage on track, and LA +1 doesn't mess that up. Which is there because Plane Shift takes a 9th level Cleric (or, more relevantly, Favored Soul, as "small selection of campaign-warping powers and still fine otherwise" like I'm worried of this is the very definition of t2), so the 8th level Wyrmling is early in provoking that _specific_ change and its rather lengthy downstream side-effects.
> 
> For reference, here's a thread of a guy vigorously crowbarring the giant official LAs into passable build stubs with varying levels of cheese, which _usually_ results in worse "dead" ECL than people are complaining about here. Dragons have quite a bit of stuff available to push past their base statblock, Wyrm of War in particular clears a lot of ground in Martial terms, giving Simple and Martial weapon proficiencies and Armor proficiencies, no mention of lacking shields. So yeah, even _without_ getting to the class level you can have a basic beatstick with the Astral shenanigans still online.


I agree with all of this except the definition of T2. *+1, +0, -0* respectively.

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## Xanyo

I considered armor for the dragon, but armoring exotic creatures is difficult and expensive. You're paying way more for any armor you try to get than the fighter is. The humanoid fighter can drop 1,500 on a set of full plate and then consider getting it enchanted with the rest of his cash. The dragon is paying double that, or quadruple if they're large. They wanna dress up in mithril? They better be willing to pay through the nose for just a mundane set.

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## danielxcutter

Doesnt armor mess with flight though?

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## Troacctid

Armor is an extremely solvable problem.

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## Remuko

> Doesnt armor mess with flight though?


dont think so. as long as theyre not overweight, which with their strength they likely wont be, i dont think it does.

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## Beni-Kujaku

> dont think so. as long as theyre not overweight, which with their strength they likely wont be, i dont think it does.


Mounts cannot fly in more than light armor and other creatures cannot fly with medium or heavy load if I'm not mistaken.


Also can psionic dragons even take Sovereign Archetypes? It doesn't really matter for Wyrmling and Very Young but might affect Young's rating.

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## Dimers

Can anyone tell me how the dragon "aims" a trip from the Astral to the Material?  Or vice versa, I guess, if the main campaign activity is happening on the Astral.  I don't have the Manual of the Planes and I don't see anything applicable in the DMG, PHB or Planar Handbook.  If it's like _astral caravan_, the dragon would pick a destination and arrive 10-1000 miles away, making the ability not useful for anything except Getting The Hell Outta Dodge.

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## Morphic tide

> I considered armor for the dragon, but armoring exotic creatures is difficult and expensive. You're paying way more for any armor you try to get than the fighter is. The humanoid fighter can drop 1,500 on a set of full plate and then consider getting it enchanted with the rest of his cash. The dragon is paying double that, or quadruple if they're large. They wanna dress up in mithril? They better be willing to pay through the nose for just a mundane set.


That's going to be 16,800 GP for a breastplate for a Young Ectoplasmic Dragon. +4 in Enhancement on armor or shields is 16,000 GP. Note that if the Humanoid has a +5 Necklace of Natural Armor, the Dragon can go completely without to save 50,000 GP, spend 16,000 of that to match enhancement, and proceed to still be taking less than half the damage because they still have +8 Natural Armor over the standard Humanoid and have +5 total from Dexterity because they have 34,000 GP left to spend and have a +4 racial bonus _no matter how big they get_, so assigning a 12 to Dexterity (which would have a non-Dex-bonus humanoid get their +1) means they can get to 20 Dex on 16,000 GP for +4 from their "native" +16, leaving 18,000 GP to spare.

End result of this potential difference in defense spending being -3 Armor, +8 Natural Armor, and +4 Dexterity bonuses to AC, leaving the Dragon at +12 AC ahead of the Humanoid with some leftovers to put towards damage. +12 AC _breaks_ things. It's the difference between 90% accuracy and 30%, between being missed only on 1s and 2s of the first swing and first iteratives needing a natural 20 to hit. To reliably hurt this thing on its normal AC, you have to make the standard humanoid _worthless_. And the humanoid's got less Touch AC so going after that only screws them _harder!_

It gets _much_ worse if we compare Swordsages. Because then both are _obligatorily_ in Light armor, reducing the Mithral cost to just 4,000 GP, and the Dragon gets to _really_ flex having wide bonuses by being able to one-up _literally everything_ Discipline Focus is doing with its racial modifiers and Wyrm of War. Though it's very touchy for Insightful Strike, while +12 Strength _is_ a lot, getting 22 Wis is pretty trivial at level 15 (for that critical first Swordsage level), but then Swordsages can also focus Str or Dex for accuracy.

It is, best I can tell, _literally entirely_ on 5th vs. 8th level Maneuvers and damage-focused gear. With all the other advantages, and the infamy of Martial hyper-dipping with ToB and Barbarian levels? Seems a decent enough tradeoff, "the DM has to fundamentally invalidate multiple normal classes of Martial to deal with me" is pretty standard high-tier fare. The reason I'm taking the Astral travel ability as a big enough deal to compare to Scry Or Die is that they can, in contradiction to the normal way it works, "flip" between Astral and Material _anywhere_ in either.

How locations relate with this is up to the DM, because there's Big Points made that they do not perfectly correspond. But for it to be particularly worth mentioning, they have to have _some_ awareness of what's on the other side. Otherwise there'd be a Big Point made about it being a last resort because they're taking a big gamble on what the output location will be. And even _with_ that strange risk, they're not _incapable_ of stealth to scout out the Astral topography as needed to figure out how to get to their destination.

It's slow, but people _love_ to talk about the Artificer shattering everything about the game with days-long preparations for single-purpose tools, just because it's _any_ single-purpose tool (well, more the bundle of varyingly-broad multi-tools, but the point about being _ludicrously_ pacing dependent to remotely pull off the ridiculousness stands). To say nothing of the fifteen minute adventuring day.

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## Beni-Kujaku

> Can anyone tell me how the dragon "aims" a trip from the Astral to the Material?  Or vice versa, I guess, if the main campaign activity is happening on the Astral.  I don't have the Manual of the Planes and I don't see anything applicable in the DMG, PHB or Planar Handbook.  If it's like _astral caravan_, the dragon would pick a destination and arrive 10-1000 miles away, making the ability not useful for anything except Getting The Hell Outta Dodge.


There is nothing about it anywhere. The ectoplasmic dragon is supposedly made of ectoplasm (comes from the demiplane of Ectoplasm, feels the need to precise that they are immune to Dismiss Ectoplasm...), which is basically the matter the Astral is made of. Other dragons from the astral (basically, the astral dragon from Dragon 344) travel using Planeshift, but they are really not innately made for planar travel, as they could grow sick and die if they travelled too often (astralomitis). On the other hand, Ectoplasmic dragons are said to travel often from their lair in the Astral Plane to the Prime, often to hunt or to find more treasure, which implies that they can both know exactly where they are going (else they wouldn't be able to go back to their lair) and bring items with them. This really seems like an ability based on Gate (although limited to the dragon and its gear) more than on Planeshift.

My headcanon is that, because the dragon is made of ectoplasm, it can modify the ectoplasm around itself to create a very temporary color pool to a location it knows. People can look through a color pool and even around it very quickly, then go through it to travel to the Prime and back again.

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## Dimers

Thanks for the reply.  I was afraid someone would say something like that, though.  Imma sit this one out; my rating might change based on whether the ability is pinpoint-precise, sorta precise or "10 x d100 miles away" precise.

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## ciopo

May I humbly ask that the Mercane from epic level handbook be reLA'd? It's the one creature from there that would have playable RHD.
Or if it was already done, I missed it in the index files, sorry!

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## Beni-Kujaku

> May I humbly ask that the Mercane from epic level handbook be reLA'd? It's the one creature from there that would have playable RHD.
> Or if it was already done, I missed it in the index files, sorry!


We haven't gone over the Epic Level Handbook yet, only MM1, MM3, ToB, FF, Libris Mortis, EPH, HoH and currently MM6 (compilation of online monsters). We will get to it when we get to it, but I believe, considering the overall quality of other monsters, that it will not be people's first choice.

If you want to play it, then ask your DM if around LA+2 (maybe +1 or even +0 but being conservative is always best) is good. There are two problematic things with the Mercane, it's that enormous SR (you're basically immune to spells of your level) and Telepathy (for mindsight). The rest is subpar, even with such great stats on an Outsider), and Plane Shift, as useful as it is, isn't that great as a 1/day, and it is also pretty hard to advance.

Edit: also, if the dragon does know where it is going when it planeswalk, then change my rating to Troacctid's *W:+1, VY:+0, higher: -0*

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## Tzardok

The Mercane is also in the Manual of the Planes, so the chance that we'll get to it is higher (I believe that the Epic Level Handbook is likely to be one of the last books we'll look at).

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## Dalmosh

Probably more one for Afro's thread but...

Specific locations are less useful as a concept on the Astral Plane, because, while it is coterminous with the Prime, and mostly empty, the distances between two astral locations are largely subjective.  Since it's a transitive plane, I think there's an argument that the writer intended this ability to work a bit like a Ghost's Manifestation ability, but that becomes much messier with the Astral.

So, while the dragon might have a lair somewhere fixed and permanent, like on a Dead God, the further it travels away from this point on the Material, the more distant it would be on the Astral as well due to the coterminous nature of the Astral.  However, the nature of the Astral makes covering such a distance in Material Plane terms fairly subjective as well.  MotP makes it clear that the abstract nature of the Astral means that a location one is "very familiar with" always takes 2d6 hours to reach by mentally willing yourself through the Silver Sea.  

So I think I would rule...
Dragon's lair corresponds to a fixed physical location on the Prime.
Travelling out of sight of this location means that you will then just zip back and forth between your current Prime location and a blank area of the Silver Sea which you then "know" as the spot corresponding to that area of the Prime.  
It always takes a minimum of 2d6 hours (from your point of view) to travel through the Astral between such locations, no matter how far away they are from one another in physical space on the Material, usually this will take "longer" though, as areas that one has, for example, only "seen casually", take d4x10 hours to reach.

However, the Astral is also timeless, so from the objective point of view of your adventuring party, effectively, you teleport anywhere around the world infinitely, and instantaneously, taxed only against a 4% chance of encounters per astral "hour", most of which you can instantly escape by just zipping back to the Material.  That said, zipping back to the Material (unless you have the Colour Pool ability Beni-Kujaku suggests above), may kill you instantly if you pop out inside solid rock.  The Astral lacks the Material analogue terrain that the other Transitive Plains have to allow you to do this more safely.

I don't play very optimised games, but I think that needs an Asterisk.

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## Tzardok

The Astral is not completely timeless, just in regard to very specific processes (namely, all biology). Natural healing, aging, hunger, thirst, tiredness, disease and poison don't progress there, but if you travel on March the 3rd to the Astral and spend a month there, you'll return on April the 3rd. Otherwise the Githyanki would be constantly invading from our perspective, while building up an army every century from their perspective.

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## Dalmosh

In that case, it's a fairly flavourful ability that is powerful without being game-breaking.

I think the travel speeds in MotP are useful metrics to use to keep it sensible.

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## Debatra

Plus we've rated a bunch of creatures with at-will self-only Greater Teleport, which that "truly timeless" interpretation would just be a more complicated version of if it worked like that.

And even if those abilities weren't self-only (or if sticking the party into a bag of holding works), it probably wouldn't be asterisk-worthy. Intra-planar travel is a non-issue, you'd trivialize any races against the clock, and you could escape any non-dimension-locked encounter that went badly as long as you can get everyone into one spot to join hands, and probably a few other things I don't care to think of at the moment; but high-level play usually means reaching the point of teleportation being more common anyway. That just removes the cap on how often you can do it. Game-altering perhaps, but it won't break everything.

While I'm here, the votes so far, up to 179:

+0 W, -0 all others - remetagross, Beni-Kujaku, Xanyo
+1 W, +0 VY, -0 all others - loky1109, Beni depending on precise targeting of Planar Travel
+1 W, +0 VY and Y, -0 all others - Morphic tide, Troacctid, Caelestion

Unfortunately, the targeting is not even vague. Just unmentioned. The _entire_ text of the ability, for those who go purely by my descriptions:



> *Planar Travel (Su):* Ectoplasmic dragons have the innate ability to pass instantly between the Material Plane and the Astral Plane as a standard action.

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## liquidformat

So AFB right now but what I can remember for every 3(?) levels you are forced to increase an age category for a true dragon correct? In that case I believe all dragons should be -0 and we should go back and change the others to be -0 too. It literally makes them unplayable in anything but a one shot game where you aren't going to make those three levels...

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## Tzardok

IIRC it's every three racial hd, not every three levels.

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## liquidformat

> IIRC it's every three racial hd, not every three levels.


As I recall there are some very weird restrictions to how many class levels you can take as well, like if you have x number of class levels you have 3 rhd and an age category forced onto you?

I will have to go back and read through Drac but I do remember reading something like that and scratching my head over how game breaking dragons are to use for characters...

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## Beni-Kujaku

> IIRC it's every three racial hd, not every three levels.


Yes, it's only advancing racial RHD which increase age categories. However, you're supposed to spend three to five levels advancing RHD every few years to have the right age category for your age.

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## loky1109

+1 W, +0 VY, -0 all others
It's mine.

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## Caelestion

If you have 25 years in-game to go from Wyrmling to Juvenile, I think your GM can handle juggling variant LAs!

I'm happy to go with *+1 W, +0 VY and Y, -0 all others*.

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## Metastachydium

> So AFB right now but what I can remember for every 3(?) levels you are forced to increase an age category for a true dragon correct? In that case I believe all dragons should be -0 and we should go back and change the others to be -0 too. It literally makes them unplayable in anything but a one shot game where you aren't going to make those three levels...


Also, even if that were the case, the most that would warrant is an asterisk of the "ignore this equine faeces to keep things playable" sort.

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## Debatra

Sorry about the delay, folks. Calling it as *+1 W, +0 VY and Y, -0 all others*. This also marks our first non-Wyrmling dragon to avoid a -0.

Next on the docket is... ****, another Dragon. Typing up that last one was painful.

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## Beni-Kujaku

> Sorry about the delay, folks. Calling it as *+1 W, +0 VY and Y, -0 all others*. This also marks our first non-Wyrmling dragon to avoid a -0.
> 
> Next on the docket is... ****, another Dragon. Typing up that last one was painful.


Cheer up! At least it's the last one! I mean, except the revised Mist, Mercury and Steel dragons.

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## Debatra

Obsidian Dragon

*Size & Type:* Small-Gargantuan Dragon (Fire)
*Space/Reach:* Presumably normal for its size.
*HD:* 7 (Small, Wyrmling), 10 (Medium, Very Young), 13 (Medium, Young), 16 (Large, Juvenile), 19 (Large, Young Adult), 22 (Huge, Adult), 25 (Huge, Mature Adult), 28 (Huge, Old), 31 (Huge, Very Old), 34 (Gargantuan, Ancient), 37 (Gargantuan, Wyrm), 40 (Gargantuan, Great Wyrm)
*Speed:* 40', Burrow 20', Swim 20', Fly 100' (Average) (Wyrmling), Fly 150' (Poor) (Very Young - Very Old), Fly 200' (Clumsy) (Ancient - Great Wyrm)

*Ability Scores (Wyrmling):* Str +2, Dex +0, Con +2, Int +4, Wis -2, Cha -2 - Net +4, two penalties
*Ability Scores (Very Young):* Str +4, Dex +0, Con +4, Int +6, Wis -2, Cha -2 - Net +10, two penalties
*Ability Scores (Young):* Str +6, Dex +0, Con +4, Int +8, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +18, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Juvenile):* Str +8, Dex +0, Con +6, Int +10, Wis +2, Cha +2 - Net +28, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Young Adult):* Str +12, Dex +0, Con +8, Int +12, Wis +2, Cha +2 - Net +36, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Adult):* Str +16, Dex +0, Con +10, Int +14, Wis +4, Cha +4 - Net +48, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Mature Adult):* Str +18, Dex +0, Con +10, Int +16, Wis +4, Cha +4 - Net +52, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Old):* Str +20, Dex +0, Con +12, Int +18, Wis +6, Cha +6 - Net +62, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Very Old):* Str +22, Dex +0, Con +12, Int +20, Wis +6, Cha +6 - Net +66, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Ancient):* Str +24, Dex +0, Con +14, Int +22, Wis +8, Cha +8 - Net +76, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Wyrm):* Str +26, Dex +0, Con +16, Int +24, Wis +8, Cha +8 - Net +82, no penalties
*Ability Scores (Great Wyrm):* Str +28, Dex +0, Con +16, Int +26, Wis +10, Cha +10 - Net +90, no penalties

*Natural Armor:* Age Category RHD-1. I'm not listing them all after that monster of an ability score chart.
*Natural Weapons:* Standard True Dragon lineup.
*Skill List:* Appraise (one free rank/HD... but is not actually noted as a class skill), Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (All), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device
*Body Shape:* Dragon
*Speech (Languages):* Yes (Draconic) (Not noted, but is true for all True Dragons.)
*CR:* 3-25
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* +0 (Wyrmling), -0 (Very Young+)

There are a few similarities to the Ectoplasmic Dragon; such as psionics instead of magic, and the ability to travel across planes. This one can pass between the Material and the Inner Planes.

Also like the Ectoplasmic, the Obsidian has basically-irrelevant Psi Resistance and manifests as a Psion who chose Metacreativity as its discipline. Its ML starts at 1 when the Dragon becomes Young, then increases by two for each age category. It has DR/magic, but it actually goes up to /+2 starting at Very Old. I'm not really sure about DR conversions off the top of my head, but I seriously doubt it can save an 18 RHD Dragon from the -0 pile. Its Breath Weapon is a standard cone of fire, dealing 2d10 per age category.

It gets a few PLAs as it ages. Young: Firefall, Juvenile: Biofeedback, Young Adult: Burning Ray, Adult: Whitefire, Mature Adult: Wall of Ectoplasm, Old: Ectoplasmic Armor, Very Old: Flaming Shroud, Ancient: Plane Shift, Wyrm: Mind Store, Great Wyrm: Genesis. Each are 3/day, except for the last two which are 1/day. Saves are... "appropriate ability modifier"-based, so unfortunately default to Char-... Actually, I can't find any rule that gives a default ability for Psi-Likes to be based on.

Also, I'm not sure if that's just how it worked in 3.0; but its Fire Subtype is noted to double the cold damage it takes instead of 3.5e's normal vulnerability of +50%.

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## Thurbane

> Imma sit this one out - I struggle with dragons and their age categories in terms of playability at the best of times; throw psionics into the mix, and I don't feel informed enough to vote.


^^ Rinse and repeat.

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## Beni-Kujaku

Compared to a Bronze dragon, this has one more RHD, -6 in both Wis and Cha, and a worse breath weapon, but the ability to freely travel the planes (or, at least, freely travel to the Inner Planes and then back again, because no one in the party nor most equipments can withstand the inner planes if they are brought out of the Bag of Holding). That's basically an ectoplasmic dragon with worse stats and a worse choice of planar travel. Still, that's a demon-like Greater Teleport, and I think the Wyrmling should get *LA+0* for that. *-0* for the rest. 

The fact that it has Planeshift as an SLA explicitates at least that its innate ability to travel planes is not the same one, and its tactics imply that it definitely can't bring other people with it, since it states Plane Shift as the most interesting option to transport enemies to the Plane of Fire.


Edit: Also, Thurbane, there is a typo in the second page of your MM6. Dragon of the Great Game appears in MM5, not MM4.

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## liquidformat

> Also, I'm not sure if that's just how it worked in 3.0; but its Fire Subtype is noted to double the cold damage it takes instead of 3.5e's normal vulnerability of +50%.


3.0 Psions had different primary ability score depending on which discipline they used. Given that all psions now use intelligence there might be an argument that they should use intelligence for their PLAs...

Honestly this doesn't seem much different than any of the wyrmling to very young chromatic dragons and is worse than white wyrming so I am comfortable with -0 for all.

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## danielxcutter

These would honestly be interesting enemies due to psion powers, especially since it'd be a Shaper... though I'm not sure it'd be worth it, due to the lack of Scintillating Scales.

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## Tzardok

> Also, I'm not sure if that's just how it worked in 3.0; but its Fire Subtype is noted to double the cold damage it takes instead of 3.5e's normal vulnerability of +50%.


Yep, vulnerability to an energy worked differently. It was double damage on a failed save, normal damage on a successful save, instead of +50% in both cases.

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## remetagross

This dragon looks really nice! But its stat modifiers are a little disappointing. Yeah, I think I'm going to go with Beni-Kujaku assessment on this one: put me down for *LA+0* for the wyrmling and* LA-0* for all the other age categories.

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## Debatra

Two votes for +0 W and -0 for the rest, one vote for -0 to all.

...Anything else to talk about here, or shall we move on?

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## Beni-Kujaku

I'd like to talk about Monster Mash (in my sig) having the builds revealed. If any of you wants to come and judge them it would be greatly appreciated! :)


Oh you meant about the Obsidian dragon? Then no nothing more. Except you forgot to put the link to the article in your presentation

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## remetagross

Let's move on. These two dragons are cute but ultimately not that different from regular dragons as far as being a PC is concerned.

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## Debatra

Yeah, sorry about that. No real excuse, I've just really been letting things go more than I should have lately.

*+0 W and -0 for the rest*, next up is the Dragon Newt.

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## Debatra

Dragon Newt

*Size & Type:* Small Animal (Aquatic)
*Space/Reach:* 5'/5'
*HD:* 1, 2 (Medium)
*Speed:* 20', Swim 30'
*Ability Scores:* Str -4, Dex +6, Con +0, Int -8, Wis +2, Cha -2 - Net -6, three penalties
*Natural Armor:* 1
*Natural Weapons:* One Primary Bite (1d4)
*Skill List:* Hide (+3 racial), Move Silently (+3 racial), Spot (+3 racial), Swim
*Body Shape:* Lizard
*Speech (Languages):*  No
*CR:* 1
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* +0

So these are heavily implied to be amphibious ("just as comfortable out of the water as in it"), but are not explicitly so. They have Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat, which helps with their acidic spit.

Said spit has a range increment of 10', dealing 1d4 acid damage on a successful ranged touch attack. Their saliva is also venomous, forcing a Con-based fortitude save vs 1d4 Str damage for both primary and secondary damage. Why this doesn't also work with their bite is beyond me. Their skin secretes this venom as well, exposing anything that hits it with an unarmed strike or natural weapon.

There is also a psionic version, identical to the above except for being a Magical Beast instead of an Animal. And yes, identical here also means Animal Intelligence. In addition to Attack/Defense modes that we still aren't sure how to convert to 3.5; it can manifest Burst, Catfall, and Spider Climb each three times per day as a first-level Psion. Same number of RHD too, so there's no reason to not be Psionic if able since you get a bigger HD, the same saves, full BAB and 60' Darkvision. (Though unless you _really_ want that second RHD to become Medium, you'll just trade out the one you have for a class level.)

Not much to them, but they're a 1-RHD creature (unless you want to be Medium). The article also has a section where the Skeleton, Zombie, and Fiendish templates are applied to the Dragon Newt, but those are literally just the base creature with a template.

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## Morphic tide

Put me down for *LA +1 Small* and *LA +0 Medium*.

Small is netting +5 to Rays and +6 to AC for little a Cleric, Druid, or Ardent cares about (at least by default), and if we follow monster advancement guidelines Medium should be +0 Strength/+4 Dex/+2 Con, which is a statline that's _fine_ as far as Martial dips go (even just a flat-out Martial, to be honest...), even if Divine-casting archer seems to have basically zero deliberate support.

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## Beni-Kujaku

I mean, the spit is neat, and +6 Dex could make an okay rogue or swordsage, but I don't feel like this balances having -8 Int and not having arms (a thumbless rogue is really not the best thing either). Not by a long shot. Except if there's something I missed, I will vote *LA-0* for the non-psionic version. Adding a few psionic powers isn't much, by I think it gives it some interest. At least enough that *LA+0* may be justified.

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## Tzardok

> So these are heavily implied to be amphibious ("just as comfortable out of the water as in it"), but are not explicitly so.


The amphibious trait didn't exist in 3.0 and was added later. See also skum not having the amphibious trait and air-breathing water-dwelling creatures like crocodiles and whales having the aquatic subtype.

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## remetagross

@Morphic Tide I can't agree here. The Str, Int and Cha penalties mean only the most minmaxed of Wis-based casters or archers will agree to take such a race. And even then, the nice swim speed is counterbalanced by an annoying 20ft land speed, the racial modifiers to skills are made void by the huge Int penalty that prevents any hope of investing into more than 1 skill, and you can barely hold a leather armour before succumbing to medium encumbrance. Granted, the medium version holds its own a little better, but then you can't swap these two annoying animal RHDs and the ability modifiers aren't worth that.

I think I'm going with *LA+0* for the small version, and *LA-0* for the medium version.

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## Debatra

Okay, for the sake of the people voting separately on Medium, I just want to point out that that's not a separate entry. I've just tried getting into the habit lately of listing the RHD you need to increase a size category since it's sometimes a low enough increase to be relevant (like if something is focused as a grappler).

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## H_H_F_F

I'm voting *+0* for both. It's a good race, but not +1 good, not with that body shape. The PLA's don't make much of a difference, IMV.

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## Troacctid

The acid venom makes this an attractive choice for a rogue, with the PLAs offering some nice synergy with things rogues like to do. I don't think you really need hands if you're planning to build around your spittle attack, so the body shape is IMO not a huge problem. And that sort of build is also naturally dumping Strength, so the penalty there isn't a problem either. The way I see it, the main drawback here is the Int and Cha penalties. Losing those skill points hurts, and negatives to casting stats cuts off potential spellcasting rogue builds.

Looking back at similar animals from MM1, most of these tiny guys with this sort of statline ended up at +0 or -0. With that as the baseline, I can agree with *+0* here. Even as a rogue, it's hard to fathom picking this over a flying animal such as the bat, hawk, or eagle. The poison spittle isn't that good, and most of the PLAs here are just poor imitations of flight.

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## loky1109

I vote *+0* for all.

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## Tzardok

I think I agree with *+0*.

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## Thurbane

I'm giving a tentative *+0* for the non-psionic, and *+1* for the psionic version.

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## Debatra

Non-Psionic:
+1 - Morphic tide,
+0 - remetagross, H_H_F_F, Troacctid, loky1109, Tzardok, Thurbane
-0 - Beni-Kujaku, 

Psionic:
+1 - Morphic tide, Thurbane
+0 - Beni-Kujaku, remetagross, H_H_F_F, Troacctid, loky1109, Tzardok

Looks like *+0* for both. Next up is the Dreamfane.

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## Debatra

Dreamfane

_Hanging against the stars like some giant bird or fabulous insect,
 this creature's diaphanous body looks like it was woven from gauze and spiderwebs.
 Twelve luminous eyes twist kaleidoscopically within its body,
 and as you catch their gaze the world around you seems to shift and change._
...Yeah, best I got.
*Size & Type:* Large Fey (Incorporeal, Psionic)
*Space/Reach:* 10'/5'
*HD:* 11, 23 (Huge)
*Speed:* Fly 50' (Perfect) (...Noted as being six squares. Ugh.)
*Ability Scores:* Str -, Dex +6, Con +2, Int -4, Wis +6, Cha +8 - Net +18, one penalty
*Natural Armor:* N/A
*Natural Weapons:* One Primary Incorporeal Touch (Sleep)
*Skill List:* Concentration, Knowledge (Local), Listen, Spot
*Body Shape:* Indeterminate
*Speech (Languages):* No
*CR:* 9
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* +1

DR 5/cold iron, immunity to mind-affecting, Power Resistance 21 (which is actually pretty good for this level), and the ability to see even in magical darkness cap off a decent chassis. Also, you have undefined fast healing and regeneration. No listed numbers or way to bypass the regen (or is that a 3.0 thing?).

So, first thing's first: You are very difficult to permanently kill. If you would "die" while in the physical world, you simply fall back into the Dreamscape. Though you can be killed there as well, presumably for good this time, this effectively makes you immortal for most practical purposes.

Second, you are undetectable by creatures who do not sleep and dream, even with most enhanced senses. Blindsight, blindsense, scent, and tremorsense are useless, as is the Touchsight power. Psionic True Seeing (and presumably the magical one as well) works though.

You have a 60' gaze attack that forces a Charisma-based will save vs a -4 circumstance penalty to attacks, saves, and skill checks for 1d6 rounds. Notably, there is no 24-hour immunity clause; so this thing goes off every round, and of course there's nothing that says the save penalty doesn't also apply to the gaze attack itself. The downside of course being that it's a regular gaze attack and not the kind you have to target as a standard action that we see occasionally. So your friends will want some kind of protection from that. (Of course, being unable to perceive you by being an Elf, Undead, etc works... while having its own problems.)

Your touch sends victims to sleep, with another Charisma-based will save to avoid it. This works as a Sleep spell (ugh), except with no HD limit (oh, okay then), and lasts until the victim is forced awake instead of only a few minutes.

Finally, you have a handful of Psi-Like Abilities, all but one being at ML9. DCs appear to be Charisma-based.
At-Will: Brain Lock (any non-mindless), Concealing Amorpha, Crisis of Breath (any non-mindless)
3/day: Dispel Psionics (+17 bonus... And I'm pretty sure that's a typo there and that 20 is supposed to say "dispel check 1d20" instead of just "dispel check 20"... but if this think automatically counts as nat-20ing its dispel checks, that would be more than a little nuts), Dream Travel (ML13, self only)
1/day: Death Urge

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## Tzardok

> Also, you have undefined fast healing and regeneration. No listed numbers or way to bypass the regen (or is that a 3.0 thing?).


This is a 3.5 creature. Notice the annoying late 3.5 stat block and the lack of psionic attack/defense modes. This to me simply is a sign of an unfinished creature.

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## Troacctid

What a weird creature. I think it would be a great support character, thoughit's hard to kill, and it boasts some reasonably potent disruptive abilities. It should be easy for it to slide into some supporty prestige class like heartfire fanner and fill the role of a beguiler-esque debuffer. I think *+0* is probably fine.

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## loky1109

I vote +2 here.

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## H_H_F_F

> Finally, you have a handful of Psi-Like Abilities, with only one of them having a listed ML, meaning the rest default to 9.


Wouldn't it be 11?

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## Tzardok

No, the ML of the Psi-Like abilities is listed as 9 (except for dream travel).

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## H_H_F_F

Gotcha. I was confused by the word "default" there.

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## Beni-Kujaku

Incorporeal, SoL touch, long distance travel, mass debuff, an incredibly good dispel for its level, mind-affecting immunity, and a few niche bonuses, including a weird immunity that may or may not mean that you can't be resurrected and stay for several days unable to act in the Dreamscape as you slowly heal to full. Much to love, not much to hate. Is it enough to balance the bad body shape and the bad ability scores? I... don't think so. But then you have Dream Phase. You can't be detected by Undead, Constructs, Elementals, non-native Outsiders, Plants or Oozes. That's fantastic! Most of your innate abilities don't work on these types, but that's the difference between a regular monster and a PC. The PC can have other abilities and kill these enemies with no problem, or just use Death Urge. It's not great for the rest of the party, but I kinda don't want to allow this kind of impunity below ECL 11 or 12. I'll go with *LA +1*.

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## Thurbane

Usual disclaimer about my lack of psionics knowledge... (_also, insert rant about the later 3.5 stat blocks_).

Large Fey (incoporeal)11 HDFly 50 ft (perfect)Cha as deflection bonus to ACFast healing, regeneration: undefined. Impossible to rate, and in likelihood, the DM would be within rights to say they don't exist. For me, I'd probably rule fast healing 5, regeneration 5 overcome by cold iron.Immune mind-affecting: nice defence for anyone.DR 5/cold ironPR 21Dream phase: only visible to creatures that can sleep and dream.Sleep Touch: sleep effect unlimited by HD. Save is Cha based.Dream gaze: gaze attack that inflicts -4 on attacks, save and skill checks for 1d6 rounds. Save is Cha based.See in Darkness: see through all kinds of darkness.PLAs: not well versed, but seems like a decent array of low-mid power PLAs. Looks like it might struggle against mindless foes.Str --, Dex +6, Con +2, Int -4, Wis +6, Cha +8Relatively small racial skill list.
This seems to make for a pretty decent CR 9 encounter, but not sure how it stacks up as a PC. No languages listed, unless I'm missing something? You seem to get decent attacks and definitely solid defences. Incorporealness is a mixed bag: great for defence, but makes interacting with things difficult at times.

I'm going to tentatively agree with *+1*, but again, my grasp on the PLAs involved aren't that great.

I'd be interested in home-brewing a non-psionic version for my own game, and swapping out the PLAs for similar themed SLAs.

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## Tzardok

> I'm going to tentatively agree with *+1*, but again, my grasp on the PLAs involved aren't that great.
> 
> I'd be interested in home-brewing a non-psionic version for my own game, and swapping out the PLAs for similar themed SLAs.


You wanna an overwiew what those powers exactly do?

Edit:



> IBut then you have Dream Phase. You can't be detected by Undead, Constructs, Elementals, non-native Outsiders, Plants or Oozes.


Outsiders _are_ able to sleep, they just don't need to, and the description of the _dream travel_ power states that they have dreams (even if they are not easy to navigate).

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## remetagross

Kudos to the author, this monster's concept is very cool. An incorporeal fey? I think that's a first to me. 

Where does this guy go? I suppose Ardent is the usual answer, what with the Wis bonus, and it evens fits the psionic fluff of the monster. Plus, picking the right ideals can orient you towards a certain sort of "dream". The dude is unkillable, and has nasty abilities against those who actually can detect it. The problem of friendly fire with the gaze attack can be solved with the Narrowed Gaze feat from Serpent Kingdoms that allows you to choose to set your gaze attack into "active only" mode. The infiltration and concealment abilities put a Rogue of equal level to shame (to creatures that can see you, just hide in the ground). The one downside is the trouble for handling equipment. Communication is easily solved through one or the other way of acquiring telepathy.

I cannot see this monster not having an LA. Let's say LA +2. This is a very strong package.

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## Debatra

> Wouldn't it be 11?





> No, the ML of the Psi-Like abilities is listed as 9 (except for dream travel).





> Gotcha. I was confused by the word "default" there.


Actually, that was me managing to accidentally be right due to the combination of later 3.5e statblocks sucking (so I didn't notice the general ML) and somehow getting their HD and CR mixed up (so I thought the "unlisted" MLs defaulted to their HD, which I got wrong). It's fixed.  :Small Red Face: 




> an incredibly good dispel for its level


To be fair, that's just how Dispel Psionics works. It starts off just being Psionic Dispel Magic, with the dispel check being 1d20+ML, capped at 10. But then you can augment your bonus by pumping more points into it. Combined with an apparent lack of Greater Dispel Psionics (at least in d20SRD.org) and it appears this is trying to take both roles. Any ML9 character can get that bonus, it's just that having i as a PLA means not having to spend those points.




> But then you have Dream Phase. You can't be detected by Undead, Constructs, Elementals, non-native Outsiders, Plants or Oozes. That's fantastic!


Don't forget Elves. There are more than enough of those to be effective. (Also, Outsiders do sleep.)




> No languages listed, unless I'm missing something?


Yep. "Languages --", right under the initiative and senses.

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## danielxcutter

You can't counterspell with Dispel Psionics, but you can't do that with SLAs anyways.

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## H_H_F_F

This is very good, but I'm worried about progression. Martial is a hard sell, losing that many manifester/caster levels is a hard sell. For thise voting for LA +2 - what would an ECL 20 version of this (with 7 class levels) look like, in your opinion?

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## Metastachydium

> Kudos to the author, this monster's concept is very cool. An incorporeal fey? I think that's a first to me.


Well, off the top of my head there's the joystealer in _MM4_ and (I think) something weird in _MM2_ (because _of course_). More to the point, I'm kind of with H_H_F_F on this. Yes, this is way cool. Yes, this is effectively unkillable (even though this probably makes bringing it back from the "dead" more rather than less complicated). But where does it go from there? Worse yet, It's essentially a one trick pony against what? Six types out of 15 (not counting deathless)? It's offensive PLAs are _all_ mind-affecting and immunity to sleep effects is ridiculously common.

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## Tzardok

I think it is no more or less unkillable than devils or demons are, who after all reform on their homeplane if killed elsewhere (see FC 1 and 2). The fluff is the same, with no mechanics given, so I'm not sure it should go into the LA.

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## Beni-Kujaku

> Worse yet, It's essentially a one trick pony against what? Six types out of 15 (not counting deathless)? It's offensive PLAs are _all_ mind-affecting and immunity to sleep effects is ridiculously common.


That's the point. All creatures natively immune to mind-affecting (except Vermin and weird things like the boneleaf or the shedu) do not sleep, and hence can't hurt it back. It is a two-trick pony with the two being almost exactly complementary to each other. Honestly, an Ardent with Practiced Manifester or a Swordsage can get up to 4th level powers or maneuvers quite easily and dish out touch-ranged death on these guys with no way for them to strike back. And for the rest, well. Death Urge is a good power, and you have other quite good SLAs, even if you don't want to just put them to sleep. Or, in the case of a mind-affecting immune creature who can sleep, you can still make a great job helping your teammates by dispelling whatever they try to do.

After looking, in all reviewed creatures (not counting the Dream Phane itself), there are only 9 non-vermin creatures who can sleep but are immune to mind-affecting effects. That's really not that much.





> I think it is no more or less unkillable than devils or demons are, who after all reform on their homeplane if killed elsewhere (see FC 1 and 2). The fluff is the same, with no mechanics given, so I'm not sure it should go into the LA.


I agree with that. "Not killed but stuck on another plane until it recovers" is not much better than "soul-bound so that it can't be resurrected"

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## Thurbane

> You wanna an overwiew what those powers exactly do?.


That would be very useful, thank you.

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## ixrisor

> That would be very useful, thank you.


Brain lock: dazes a creature for concentration + 1 round, will negates

Concealing amorpha: 20% concealment, basically psionic blur

Crisis of breath: forces a creature to take standard actions to breathe, if they dont they have to make fort saves to avoid dropping to 0. Will negates.

Dispel psionics: just like dispel magic

Dream travel: like shadow walk

Death urge: forces a creature to spend the next round trying to kill itself as effectively as possible, will negates

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## Tzardok

> That would be very useful, thank you.


Then I will do that and also give my thoughts regarding what spells could replace them in a non-psionic version of the creature.

_Concealing amorpha_ grants the user concealment, similiar to the _blurr_ spell. _Dispel psionics_ is of course the psionic counterpart to _dispel magic_ or _greater dispel magic_. Those are the easy ones to replace.

_Dream travel_ is the obligatory power for traveling dreamscapes. Ruleswise, it works like _shadow walk,_ except using dreams instead of the Plane of Shadow, but I don't think that's important for finding a spell that fulfills the same theme. The only spell like that that I could find on a cursory look is _dream walk_ from Heroes of Horror, which works more like _planeshift._

The other three powers don't have easy counterparts. 

_Brainlock_ prevents the target from casting spells and using powers by dazing it. It has a duration of concentration. 
You can propably find an abjuration somewhere that does something similiar ("sunder spell-like" or something like that).

_Crisis of breath_ is a compulsion that forces the target to exhale all air in its lungs. For the duration, the target may choose every round wether it fights the compulsion (allowing it to breath normally for that round) or acts normally (with the risk of suffocation). 
There is IIRC a spell that fills the target's lungs with water, but I personally feel that the mind-affecting thing and the "can fight back every round" part is thematically more important than the "can't breath" part, so I wouldn't use that one. Maybe _hold monster_ fits better?

_Death urge_ is a compulsion with a duration of a single round. During the duration, the target chooses the most suicidical course of action available, be that attacking itself, charging a monster or jumping from a cliff. 
Thematically I feel that it could be replaced with _phantasmal killer_ as a potentially deadly mind-affecting effect.

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## Thurbane

Thank you.

Hmm, some of those would have pretty clear spell/SLA equivalents, but others not so much.

I ran into similar issues trying to make a non-psionic Caller In Darkness.

[edit] Updated for Tzardok's post - thank you for the analysis [/edit]

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## Troacctid

> But where does it go from there? Worse yet, It's essentially a one trick pony against what? Six types out of 15 (not counting deathless)? It's offensive PLAs are _all_ mind-affecting and immunity to sleep effects is ridiculously common.


Into a prestige class, presumably. Fey hit dice have enough skill points even with the Int penalty that it shouldn't be too hard. My earlier suggestion was heartfire fanner (with a quick one-level dip to qualify) or something similar. I think a bard-type class makes a lot of sense with what this monster has going on.

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## Glimbur

I chuckle to consider one of these in a party made up of characters that do not sleep and so cannot perceive it. Things just go right for them, until the wizard gets True Seeing and they learn who their mascot is.

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## Beni-Kujaku

Does anybody have anything else to say here? H_H_F_F, have you made your mind?

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## H_H_F_F

I'm voting for *LA +0*.

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## Thurbane

Could you shoehorn this into a fast progression casting PrC, like Ur-Priest?

Its HD meet the Fort +3 and Will +3 save reqs.

You can take Iron Will and Spell Focus (evil) as feats - although it always feels cheesy to me taking SF when you aren't actually a caster. Iron Will can be gotten through Otyugh Hole, but that feels cheap to me; I know it's kosher at most tables, though.

The skills are the most challenging part: Bluff, Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (planes) are easy enough, albeit as cross-class. Knowledge (religion) and Spellcraft will be trickier. K(R) can be gotten using the Knowledge Devotion feat. You could try for the Education feat, but that feels kinda weird on this monster. Spellcraft would probably require Keeper of Forbidden Lore, which has a req of 13+. With a -4 Int penalty, that requires a fair bit of an investment.

So yeah, you can do it, but it requires 4 feats (or 3 + a magical location), and putting 17+ into int. If it were ruled as LA +0 or +1, you'd still get 9th level spells by ECL 20. May still be worth it. The boost to Wis (for spells) and Cha (for rebuking) would be nice.

...then there's the issue of no languages: does this mean it's incapable of speech? That will cause issues with spells that have Verbal components. Item based solutions are going to be difficult for an incorporeal being. Also, the issue of being incorporeal and manipulating spell components etc.

Is it doable? Maybe. Going to require a pretty big build investment.

[edit] Just looked here for some ideas about Verbal spells etc. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...s-Spellcasters [/edit]

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## Beni-Kujaku

Could we just say as a rule that if nobody posts anything in this thread for 48 hours, we should wrap it up and go to the next creature? At least if it's not a problem of time from Debatra, it's just that I feel like most creatures last for one or 2 days of discussion, and then more than a week of nothing.

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## Debatra

Yeah, I have been rather slow to update lately.

+0 - Troacctid, H_H_F_F
+1 - Beni-Kujaku, Thurbane
+2 - loky1109, remetagross

...Lovely. Averaging it out to *+1* then. Next is... a Drider template? Okay then.

----------


## Debatra

Drider Template

*Acquired or Inherited:* Acquired
*Applied To:* Any Humanoid
*Size & Type:* Size increases one category, Type becomes Aberration, lose all Subtypes
*Space/Reach:* As per new size
*Hit Dice:* Increased to a minimum based on new size by gaining Aberration RHD. 3 (Small), 4 (Medium), 6 (Large)
*Speed:* Set to 30', Climb 15'
*Ability Scores:* Str +4, Dex +2, Con +8, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +2 - Net +18, no penalties
*Armor Class:* Natural Armor increases to 3 (Small), 4 (Medium), or 6 (Large) if lower.
*Skills:* +4 to Hide and Move Silently; Class Skills for any gained Aberration RHD are Climb, Concentration, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spellcraft, Spot.
*CR:* +2
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* +2

We gave the original Drider +2. By comparison, the regular Drider gives you +2 Dex, -2 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, and +4 Charisma. And of course six effective levels in a casting class. That said, that's a 6-RHD creature whereas this is a template. A template that gives you additional RHD if you don't have enough already is odd, but you can avoid that by already being at least level 3/4/6. 

SR 11+HD is always nice, and you don't lose any special abilities. You gain a bite that scales with your size if you didn't already have a better one, and it also delivers Str-damaging poison (which also scales with your size) with a Con-based save (that doesn't scale with size).

You get a handful of 1/day SLAs, each with Charisma-based saves and a CL that scales with your Sorcerer CL (or just CL 1 if you aren't a Sorcerer). Dancing Lights, Darkness, Detect Chaos, Detect Good, Detect Evil, Detect Law, Detect Magic, Faerie Fire, Levitate. Note the absence of Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Dispel Magic, and Suggestion; which regular Driders also get.

If you already want to be a Cleric, Sorcerer, or Wizard, the regular Drider is probably better for you because it gives better mental stats. Then again, you get to tack your existing racial traits onto this and possibly avoid being Large. For anything else this is probably better by virtue of not locking you into a certain class for those 3/4/6 levels. Overall, call it a mixed bag.

----------


## loky1109

I'd give it +2.
Maybe less if applies with aberration HD.

----------


## Debatra

I think this might be a good case for variable LA.

----------


## loky1109

> I think this might be a good case for variable LA.


Ok.
Something like this.
	HD
	LA

	+5
	-0

	+4
	-0

	+3
	-0

	+2
	0

	+1
	+1

	+0
	+2



*Spoiler: code*
Show

[table="class: head alt1 alt2"][tr][th]	HD	[/th][th]	LA	[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]	+5	[/td][td]	-0	[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]	+4	[/td][td]	-0	[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]	+3	[/td][td]	-0	[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]	+2	[/td][td]	0	[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]	+1	[/td][td]	+1	[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]	+0	[/td][td]	+2	[/td][/tr][/table]

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

I don't feel like this really needs variable LA. Gaining HD if you take the template before you already have 3 to 6 HD is a drawback, but one that is easily solved. I don't think it warrants the final score being less simple and readable.

This is definitely worse than the original drider on a pure sorcerer, but the ability to have actual class features (even a cleric 6 can turn undead and can get acfs that will be worth it compared to losing some mental stats, and dispel magic and suggestion as SLAs), to stack it on top of other classes and to multiclass your drider (also the fact that the SR explicitly scales is great) make up for it in my opinion. *LA+2*

----------


## Troacctid

If you assume you always gain HD, instead of only gaining HD if you're low enough level, then I think +2 is fine. But if you can just dodge the HD by not becoming a drider until later, then spending 2 levels to get 6 levels of casting is _wildly_ overpowered and should not be allowed in any universe.

----------


## H_H_F_F

> If you assume you always gain HD, instead of only gaining HD if you're low enough level, then I think +2 is fine. But if you can just dodge the HD by not becoming a drider until later, then spending 2 levels to get 6 levels of casting is _wildly_ overpowered and should not be allowed in any universe.


This template doesn't give casting, as far as I can tell. Just SLAs that key off sorc level for their CL.

I'm actually thinking this might be a strong +1. It's good, sure - but on what build is this worth 2 levels, especially when compared to other templates we've rated this high?

This is a genuine question, by the way, not a rhetorical device.

----------


## Troacctid

> This template doesn't give casting, as far as I can tell. Just SLAs that key off sorc level for their CL.


Oh, I misread the description.

In that case, yes, *+2* sounds right. The size increase, spell resistance, and +18 net stats is way too strong for LA +1 even before taking the SLAs into account (and the SLAs don't even account for that much). This seems about on par with the best LA +2 templates in the game.

----------


## Mystic Muse

I think *+2* seems reasonable.

----------


## Remuko

> I'm actually thinking this might be a strong +1. It's good, sure - but on what build is this worth 2 levels, especially when compared to other templates we've rated this high?


agreed with this. *+1*

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> This template doesn't give casting, as far as I can tell. Just SLAs that key off sorc level for their CL.
> 
> I'm actually thinking this might be a strong +1. It's good, sure - but on what build is this worth 2 levels, especially when compared to other templates we've rated this high?
> 
> This is a genuine question, by the way, not a rhetorical device.


A Medium melee fighter (in the broad sense, not just a Fighter) with at least 6 HD? +18 stats is incredibly great (especially since it's mostly physical stats), SR 11+HD and NA+6 will help you tremendously in most situations, and a size increase has far-reaching benefits, including increased reach. The bite attack and SLAs are just icing on the cake. Also you're an aberration, if you want to abuse Alter Self to become a Carrion Crawler. Basically, it's just numbers, but damn are they good numbers.

Compared to a half-fiend, you have definitely worse SLAs and type (but since you're probably taking it with no RHD, the type isn't that impactful), and no DR, but slightly better stats (we like +8 Con), better natural armor, some poison and especially a size increase. I don't argue that it's better than half-fiend, but I don't feel comfortable allowing that for +1.
Basically, look at Spellwarped, which was the low-end of +2, and tell me a size increase (and more stats) would not make the drider better than being able to get +4 Str when a spell fails to pierce your SR.


Also, having the base creatures of the example drider be a hill dwarf and a goblin is so much devoid of any kind of sense that it physically hurts.

----------


## Tzardok

Spider goblin
Spider goblin
wobbles whatever a spider is wobblin' 
 :Small Big Grin: 

By the way, if a human got this template, would it get an additional boost to Hide? It would after all be a hider.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## remetagross

I agree that's an *LA+2* - and a reasonably strong one at that. It wouldn't seem absurd to me to tack an LA+3 on this for a low-level environment. The amount of stat increases is immense, the size increase is really useful since it stacks with every other size increase trick (use Hidden Talent for Expansion since you don't qualify for Enlarge Person anymore). So yeah, a great template.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> I agree that's an *LA+2* - and a reasonably strong one at that. It wouldn't seem absurd to me to tack an LA+3 on this for a low-level environment. The amount of stat increases is immense, the size increase is really useful since it stacks with every other size increase trick (use Hidden Talent for Expansion since you don't qualify for Enlarge Person anymore). So yeah, a great template.


That's the thing, it can't really be put in a low-level environment, considering it's best if you're already Medium and increases your HD to 6

----------


## H_H_F_F

I guess that the Con+Size+SR makes it +2... Maybe I was too focused on how unimpressive the SLAs were.

----------


## loky1109

I still think it isn't great if came with extra 5 RHD.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> I still think it isn't great if came with extra 5 RHD.


And a Revived Fossil isn't great if you put it on a pixie. And half-troll isn't great if you plan to go full caster. Every template has situations in which it doesn't work, Driderspawn (yeah, I'm not calling these ripoffs driders, they're not even divinely conceived!) doesn't work if the base creature has less than 6 RHD. It doesn't mean we should change the LA to account for everything at once.

----------


## loky1109

> And a Revived Fossil isn't great if you put it on a pixie. And half-troll isn't great if you plan to go full caster. Every template has situations in which it doesn't work, Driderspawn (yeah, I'm not calling these ripoffs driders, they're not even divinely conceived!) doesn't work if the base creature has less than 6 RHD. It doesn't mean we should change the LA to account for everything at once.


Can't agree with you.
Your examples are very different. Revived Fossil and half-troll can be better or worse based on base creature and his classes, Driderspawn is another matter. 
Let's look. I make human sorcerer. I want 20 ECL. Let Driderspawn has LA +2. 
If I apply template firstly, before first level it will be aberration 6/sorc 12. If I apply it after 6th level it will be sorc 18. Do you see difference? It looks like different templates and results in very different final power. And it's true for every classes, maybe except commoner.

----------


## H_H_F_F

Tend to agree with loky here. This isn't just good/bad depending on the entry; this is a different mechanic within the template itself. I don't know if we should bother with it or just assume no one will take it before level 6, but it is different than just being good or bad for certain foes.

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## Morphic tide

> Can't agree with you.
> Your examples are very different. Revived Fossil and half-troll can be better or worse based on base creature and his classes, Driderspawn is another matter. 
> Let's look. I make human sorcerer. I want 20 ECL. Let Driderspawn has LA +2. 
> If I apply template firstly, before first level it will be aberration 6/sorc 12. If I apply it after 6th level it will be sorc 18. Do you see difference? It looks like different templates and results in very different final power. And it's true for every classes, maybe except commoner.


This is just a timing question, one that applies to _many_ Acquired Templates. There are incredibly few cases where LA +2 makes any sense before 3HD, the damage to the early game is just too massive, and on a spellcaster you want 3rd level spells before eating LA because that's way too critical a power spike to delay. Also, it'd be Sorc 13/18, because 0th-level standard humanoids are an incredibly screwy RAW subject. As is what the heck happens when you put this on an innately-Large Humanoid.

Relative to an actual Drider, applying this template to a Drow is -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha, alongside an extra use/day of Dancing Lights, Darkness, and Fairy Fire. For a Sorcerer, you're looking at a further loss of 6 HP out the gate, taking ECL 14 level to equalize, due to being d4 instead of d8 HD, and have -1 BAB, because "proper" Driders get their casting stacked on the RHD. You could equalize chassis with Battle Sorcerer, but that means you lose _even more_ spellcasting. Granted, most any other race is gaining the SR, so I can see an _argument_ for LA +2, but actual-Drider is in fact a plenty good use for your first six levels.

Given the breadth of detriments compared to actual-Drider, if we're looking at taking hard Sorcerer levels I'd say it should be LA +1. Yes, that results in the room for screwy template stacking, but "true" Driders can take Wizard casting while this needs to take Sorcerer levels in particular to get comparable SLA value and seems to be losing _a lot_ compared to a "true" Drider.

----------


## danielxcutter

Not to mention that Driders also have access to Cleric and we all know how quickly _that_ gets out of hand, especially with Drider stats.

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## Troacctid

Can you expound a little more on why you think sorcerer is the obvious class to pair this template with? It seems like a really counterintuitive choice to me, based on the stats it gives you.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Can you expound a little more on why you think sorcerer is the obvious class to pair this template with? It seems like a really counterintuitive choice to me, based on the stats it gives you.


The CL of the SLAs is based on _sorcerer level_ rather than class level or HD. Not that this is too much of a compelling argument, if you ask me. Those SLAs are as meh as it gets.




> Can't agree with you.
> Your examples are very different. Revived Fossil and half-troll can be better or worse based on base creature and his classes, Driderspawn is another matter. 
> Let's look. I make human sorcerer. I want 20 ECL. Let Driderspawn has LA +2. 
> If I apply template firstly, before first level it will be aberration 6/sorc 12. If I apply it after 6th level it will be sorc 18. Do you see difference? It looks like different templates and results in very different final power. And it's true for every classes, maybe except commoner.





> Tend to agree with loky here. This isn't just good/bad depending on the entry; this is a different mechanic within the template itself. I don't know if we should bother with it or just assume no one will take it before level 6, but it is different than just being good or bad for certain foes.


I mean, as others have said, it's an acquired template. Why would you even do that? At that point, we may as well consider the possibility that you're doubling down on hating yourself and take commoner levels afterwards, only to conclude that it doesn't make a difference in the end.

A single, fixed *+2* sounds reasonable enough for me.

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## Troacctid

> The CL of the SLAs is based on _sorcerer level_ rather than class level or HD. Not that this is too much of a compelling argument, if you ask me. Those SLAs are as meh as it gets.


Oh, of course. Gotta have as high a caster level as possible for those...dancing lights...and...detect evils. Yup!

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## loky1109

> I mean, as others have said, it's an acquired template. Why would you even do that?


It can be done against my will. Like lycanthrope, vampire, etc.

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## Metastachydium

> Oh, of course. Gotta have as high a caster level as possible for those...dancing lights.


I mean, I can see _myself_ doing that for kicks and giggles, but still.




> It can be done against my will. Like lycanthrope, vampire, etc.


Yup. It can. And in any given campaign that makes a lick of sense, picking up _5 RHD_ and these abilities as a _first level character_ would probably be followed closely by becoming an NPC, at least for a while.

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## Tzardok

Or playing a short side adventure about searching for a cure.

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## Morphic tide

> Oh, of course. Gotta have as high a caster level as possible for those...dancing lights...and...detect evils. Yup!


It also forcefully sets the Favored Class to it, it has a Charisma bonus, and the save DCs are Charisma-based. Jumping to Cleric to most cleanly match the "proper" Drider is ignoring basically everything but its raw +numbers, and said numbers are pretty redundant with _a lot_ of Cleric build priorities. The actively-forced-to-be-CE aspect has some pretty harsh issues for Clerics, as well, restricting you to Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Evil, and Neutral Evil deities.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> Uhm, GreatWyrmGold? I think you accidentally posted in the wrong thread.


I have no idea what you're talking about, this is the right thread. I never posted this anywhere else.

*Spoiler: Marginally Useful Notes*
Show


One editorial thing I'd like to mention: The LA ratings of the undead variants never made it to their actual post.



I just remembered playing an online single-player version of that game in middle school, presumably also something that WotC made in a futile attempt to make the game profitable. I remember liking it at the time, but I had terrible taste and minimal exposure to non-D&D tabletop gaming in middle school.



I assume Granny Smith?


*Spoiler: Jokes*
Show



Fun concept for a cohort or something, but I don't know how much fun playing as someone else's Stand would be.

...I kinda want to do that sort of thing just to try it, but I don't know how I'd pull it off...



"Attempt" being the operative word here...



Genuinely shocked there's no reference to the pies being aimed at the target's face. This feels like it should have, I dunno, a rider that blinds the target until they take a move action to wipe the filling out of their eyes, negated by a Reflex save.


Now to stuff that's drider-relevant.





> Also, having the base creatures of the example drider be a hill dwarf and a goblin is so much devoid of any kind of sense that it physically hurts.


I'm not sure why.



> Though [driders] consider their form to be a blessing, they know that changing other creatures into driders constitutes hideous torture. Drow-based driders enjoy the irony of their blessing being any other creature's bane.


Seems pretty straightforward to me. Driders inflict this form on their captives as an elaborate form of torture, albeit one that suits itself to a vengeful heroic backstory. (You know, if Drizzt Do'Urden's backstory is _slightly_ too cliché for you.) The only question is whether driders would be likely to encounter dwarves or goblins, which...yeah. Hill dwarves and normal goblins probably aren't the _most_ common things for drow to encounter, but they're not _rare_.


The arguments about whether or not we need to modify level adjustment for adding RHD in _some_ but not _all_ cases makes me wonder if we should asterisk that bit. It doesn't change much for campaigns starting at ECL 8 (assuming +2 LA) or above, but it would save a _ton_ of arguing.
Though it would also set a precedent that asterisks can apply to abilities just because people argue about them a lot...

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## Troacctid

> It also forcefully sets the Favored Class to it, it has a Charisma bonus, and the save DCs are Charisma-based. Jumping to Cleric to most cleanly match the "proper" Drider is ignoring basically everything but its raw +numbers, and said numbers are pretty redundant with _a lot_ of Cleric build priorities. The actively-forced-to-be-CE aspect has some pretty harsh issues for Clerics, as well, restricting you to Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Evil, and Neutral Evil deities.


Which save DCs are you especially concerned with optimizing? I would have assumed it'd be the poison, since the stats here seem to lend themselves to a melee build, but that's Con-based, not Cha-based, right?

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## GreatWyrmGold

> Which save DCs are you especially concerned with optimizing? I would have assumed it'd be the poison, since the stats here seem to lend themselves to a melee build, but that's Con-based, not Cha-based, right?


No argument which brings up Favored Class is _just_ about the mechanics.

I don't think it's a particularly _strong_ argumentI don't think we've given much consideration to what classes WotC thinks a species _should_ use before nowbut your counterargument is the wrong one to use here.

----------


## Thurbane

Another awkward one to rate: I'll throw my hat in with the *LA +2* votes.

----------


## Troacctid

> No argument which brings up Favored Class is _just_ about the mechanics.
> 
> I don't think it's a particularly _strong_ argumentI don't think we've given much consideration to what classes WotC thinks a species _should_ use before nowbut your counterargument is the wrong one to use here.


"You need to go sorcerer to have a decent caster level and save DCs for the SLAs" is 100% a mechanical argument. I'm just confused why you would care about CL and DC for any of these.

----------


## Morphic tide

> Which save DCs are you especially concerned with optimizing? I would have assumed it'd be the poison, since the stats here seem to lend themselves to a melee build, but that's Con-based, not Cha-based, right?


...I _thought_ the SLAs had _something_ with a relevant save at first glance, but they manage to be exclusively Willing-required or no-save. Duration's still got its uses for the CL with regard to how many points-of-interest can be checked with all that Detection and the length of shutting down certain kinds of bother with Darkness/Faerie Fire, and it is a specific-class scaling nonetheless. It's a small touch pretty much _just_ short of having explicit racial spellcasting, if you leave them at CL 1 then you might as well just be a Drow to enjoy SR on the cheap or go the full way to proper-Drider for the chassis benefits or something like Aranea with cheaper casting benefits.

Plus the matter that Cleric just... Doesn't really _need_ anything this is giving by the time it's playable? Seriously, a 7th-level Cleric can already go full-BAB with durability bonus and start working to counter enemy magic, there's no qualitative benefit worth losing a spell level on the style of t1 _already_ defined by "easily self-buff to be a high-end melee combatant". This template doesn't get Int bonus so it's not much good for Wizard. Which leave Sorcerer, who does in fact enjoy the Martial-facing bonuses with open class levels to get Gish PRCs up and running and the SLAs add up to being a very nice just-in-case that combine to mean quite the number of Spells Known able to be freed up.




> No argument which brings up Favored Class is _just_ about the mechanics.
> 
> I don't think it's a particularly _strong_ argumentI don't think we've given much consideration to what classes WotC thinks a species _should_ use before nowbut your counterargument is the wrong one to use here.


When you run into a DM who enforces the multiclassing XP penalty rules, there is _a lot_ of gish-type PRC stuff that gets incredibly annoying if you're not using your Favored Class to shut that off, which becomes considerably more the case when you're not getting the pseudo-theurge of the proper Drider. It's a rule, for all people absolutely despise it to the point of ignoring it the extremely vast majority of the time.

----------


## Troacctid

> ...I _thought_ the SLAs had _something_ with a relevant save at first glance, but they manage to be exclusively Willing-required or no-save. Duration's still got its uses for the CL with regard to how many points-of-interest can be checked with all that Detection and the length of shutting down certain kinds of bother with Darkness/Faerie Fire, and it is a specific-class scaling nonetheless. It's a small touch pretty much _just_ short of having explicit racial spellcasting, if you leave them at CL 1 then you might as well just be a Drow to enjoy SR on the cheap or go the full way to proper-Drider for the chassis benefits or something like Aranea with cheaper casting benefits.


Compared to drow, though, this has about +2 LA's worth of Numbers.




> Plus the matter that Cleric just... Doesn't really _need_ anything this is giving by the time it's playable? Seriously, a 7th-level Cleric can already go full-BAB with durability bonus and start working to counter enemy magic, there's no qualitative benefit worth losing a spell level on the style of t1 _already_ defined by "easily self-buff to be a high-end melee combatant". This template doesn't get Int bonus so it's not much good for Wizard. Which leave Sorcerer, who does in fact enjoy the Martial-facing bonuses with open class levels to get Gish PRCs up and running and the SLAs add up to being a very nice just-in-case that combine to mean quite the number of Spells Known able to be freed up.


Are cleric and sorcerer the only two options? The statline and especially the size increase are really heavily slanted towards a melee build IMO.

----------


## Morphic tide

> Compared to drow, though, this has about +2 LA's worth of Numbers.


For a low-tier Martial and a fairly particular subset of t3 classes, _maybe_, but again those numbers are -12 ability scores and a worse chassis for anything _but_ Cleric compared to the proper-Drider getting LA +2 with its racial spellcasting.




> Are cleric and sorcerer the only two options? The statline and especially the size increase are really heavily slanted towards a melee build IMO.


Sorcerer's the one thing getting a good duration on those SLAs, and has quite the bounty of Gish support that synergizes extremely well with these numbers. Set-to Natural Armor means you want a base race with none, you want to be starting Medium but also get set-to 30 ft. speed so the rare Tiny Humanoid gets a normal speed, you lose subtypes so a lot of race-based stuff stops working, your skill bonus is _Hide and Move Silently_, and the majority of the ability score boost is Constitution.

For a particularly direct comparison on what LA +2 looks like, Spellwarped gives +14 abilities with +4 Str/Con/Int, the same SR, and when the SR goes off you get additional bonuses like +4 to an ability score or temporary HP or energy resistance or an actual _bonus_ to movement speed, while Half-Dragon gives three Natural Attacks, +14 abilities, and if you're Large to start with it gives _permanent double-land-speed flight_ and if that's off RHD it boosts them a die size and sets them to 6+Int skills to dramatically improve a lot of the options for being Large. Voidmind is a pile of rather useful immunities, slightly worse SR, _three_ decent +numbers feats that pop up in prerequisites a lot, +10 abilities, and what can be pretty easily a save-or-lose. And the most Dumb Beater of them, Half-Troll, gets "free full heal between virtually every fight".

Pretty much all of them have _qualitative_ advantages that cross-apply outside combat or are _incredibly_ robust offensive or defensive benefits. This degree of blunt +numbers is _pathetic_ compared to those LA +2 examples unless you go all-in on breaking game math by careful leverage that works much the same with the others, and it _just so happens_ to have active mechanical incentive to be a Sorcerer, specifically, especially with PRC-qualification dips prone to multiclass XP penalty, like you tend to do for Gishes, which Sorcerers like being because it makes it take extremely few distinct spells to fight so they can reserve nearly all their Spells Known for utility.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> Now to stuff that's drider-relevant
> 
> 
> I'm not sure why.
> 
> Seems pretty straightforward to me. Driders inflict this form on their captives as an elaborate form of torture, albeit one that suits itself to a vengeful heroic backstory. (You know, if Drizzt Do'Urden's backstory is _slightly_ too cliché for you.) The only question is whether driders would be likely to encounter dwarves or goblins, which...yeah. Hill dwarves and normal goblins probably aren't the _most_ common things for drow to encounter, but they're not _rare_.


I can't see the posts you are replying to.

For the Pie Fiend that's the difference between Tasha's Hideous Laughter (where you do throw pies at people's face) and pies so delicious that even if you throw them at the body they will try to eat it.


And yeah I made my "makes no sense" comment after having only read the beginning of the template lore and assuming it was supposed to be the regular Lolth-induced drider only as a template. I agree that driderspawns may be any race driders can encounter (although I still think it would make more sense to have a Duergar and a Svirfneblin than races from the surface)







> Sorcerer's the one thing getting a good duration on those SLAs, and has quite the bounty of Gish support that synergizes extremely well with these numbers.


That's the thing. The SLAs are not the most attractive part of the template by far. They're weak and basically do not rely on CL or Cha that much.




> For a particularly direct comparison on what LA +2 looks like, Spellwarped gives +14 abilities with +4 Str/Con/Int, the same SR, and when the SR goes off you get additional bonuses like +4 to an ability score or temporary HP or energy resistance or an actual _bonus_ to movement speed,


I really think you're forgetting the fact that Driderspawn gives you a size increase. A dwarf (Barbarian/Warblade) keeps their ability to move in heavy armor gains the same bonuses as Spellwarped to speed but permanently has better stats reach more damage more NA... Oh yeah and a few SLAs. Not good ones mind you but still Detect Alignment can be interesting. Yeah they don't have the possibility to gain Energy Resistance but they also don't need to ask their wizard to waste slots on them for it.




> Pretty much all of them have _qualitative_ advantages that cross-apply outside combat or are _incredibly_ robust offensive or defensive benefits. This degree of blunt +numbers is _pathetic_ compared to those LA +2 examples unless you go all-in on breaking game math by careful leverage that works much the same with the others,


I don't get how you get "pathetic when the numbers are basically strictly better than Spellwarped and on par with Half-Dragon.




> it _just so happens_ to have active mechanical incentive to be a Sorcerer, specifically, especially with PRC-qualification dips prone to multiclass XP penalty, like you tend to do for Gishes, which Sorcerers like being because it makes it take extremely few distinct spells to fight so they can reserve nearly all their Spells Known for utility.


I mean you could go sorcerer. I just feel like you lose more than any other class considering you're already one level behind in spellcasting. Deepwyrm drows have sorcerer and clerics as their favored class but no PC-built Drow ever chooses these classes. Favored classes are a very weak incentive to choose a class compared to stat repartition.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> When you run into a DM who enforces the multiclassing XP penalty rules, there is _a lot_ of gish-type PRC stuff that gets incredibly annoying if you're not using your Favored Class to shut that off, which becomes considerably more the case when you're not getting the pseudo-theurge of the proper Drider. It's a rule, for all people absolutely despise it to the point of ignoring it the extremely vast majority of the time.


It's a rule that's only applicable to a _very_ narrow range of builds. Putting aside that you need to be very specifically a _sorcerer_, _and_ make that your main class if you want more than one dip (sooff the top of my heada ranger with a couple levels of sorcerer who took the Arcane Archer class would still be penalized), if you have multiple dips you need to keep _your dips_ close to the same level. A Sorcerer 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 3 is gonna have problemsslightly fewer than if they didn't have a favored class, but still.

Your character's Favored Class has less mechanical impact than your alignment. Heck, 5e's Traits, Bonds, and Flaws have more mechanical impact than 3.5's Favored Classesthe former interact with Inspiration, which is used _far_ more often than multiclassing penalties (and applies to _every_ character).





> I can't see the posts you are replying to.


...huh.




> I mean you could go sorcerer. I just feel like you lose more than any other class considering you're already one level behind in spellcasting.


Not true! Archivists, beguilers, death masters, magewrights, wizards, and wu jen don't even get a +2 to their casting stat. There are more if you count prestige classes, but I dunno how many of them do things other than cast spells, and listing half a dozen classes is plenty to make my joke.

----------


## Morphic tide

> That's the thing. The SLAs are not the most attractive part of the template by far. They're weak and basically do not rely on CL or Cha that much.


Detect Magic lets you check three "points of interest" in full at CL 1, provided there's no more than one round of movement, and nine at CL 3 with three rounds of movement. That is, in fact, a pretty impactful improvement to its use-cases. At high CLs, Alignment detection comes to cover large stretches of the day. These are far from _worthless_ improvements for all they stay situational to use, and are something that scales _solely_ with Sorcerer levels. Again, you're insisting on _totally_ ignoring everything but raw +numbers that are a _terrible_ balance for doing much of anything relative to just about any other source of Large size.




> I don't get how you get "pathetic when the numbers are basically strictly better than Spellwarped and on par with Half-Dragon.


...One, it's fairly easy for a Spellwarped to be sticking around at +18 abilities itself and constantly refresh temp HP just by getting a cheap wand and gets +4 Int to _actively_ be a good Warblade or Duskblade, instead of just having a bucket of HP and a _decent_ damage bump to what it did anyways without _any_ serious new options, and two, this is not "on par with Half Dragon", because Half Dragons get an Energy Immunity which is a situational _total shutdown_ with no questions asked and a _massive_ chunk of the benefits of the template are specifically tied to being Large already and having RHD for it to buff, which almost always means stacking to totals that rather thoroughly warp the game math.

And I really can't take the Barbarian/Warblade suggestion seriously. You are _going_ to suffer horrible progression crippling that way, whether from taking enough Barbarian levels to avoid multiclassing penalty or from the penalty itself. Plus Barbarian's benefits are redundant with Tiger Claw and its detriments actually cripple one of Warblade's big advantages in Diamond Mind, and the template bumps Wis/Cha, not Int, so you're actively ignoring even a bit of its ability scores. Psychic Warrior, meanwhile, would have _some_ value to the template's Natural Attack, allows for further size increases, benefits from the Wisdom bump, has a pretty cheap Grapple package for size to be more than just damage, and can be saving more Powers Known than it loses from LA.




> I mean you could go sorcerer. I just feel like you lose more than any other class considering you're already one level behind in spellcasting. Deepwyrm drows have sorcerer and clerics as their favored class but no PC-built Drow ever chooses these classes. Favored classes are a very weak incentive to choose a class compared to stat repartition.


No, the one that loses the worst is Paladin because of the hard Alignment lockout (unless you use the Slaughter variant which is begging for nonsense RAW outcomes with Blackguard), or maybe a Cleric build dependent on an incompatible god. And when you're talking builds that are dip-reliant like most Martial setups and nearly all Gish entry strategies, Favored Class is _really bloody important_ to being able to maintain a sane progression rate, so shifting that is actually a pretty major advantage by making it _possible_ to get away with one-level Martial dips for Proficiencies to start PRCs. Having Favored Class Sorcerer means you can dip freely, having Favored Class Fighter means you have to either mainline it or dip _only_ Fighter.




> It's a rule that's only applicable to a _very_ narrow range of builds. Putting aside that you need to be very specifically a _sorcerer_, _and_ make that your main class if you want more than one dip (sooff the top of my heada ranger with a couple levels of sorcerer who took the Arcane Archer class would still be penalized), if you have multiple dips you need to keep _your dips_ close to the same level. A Sorcerer 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 3 is gonna have problemsslightly fewer than if they didn't have a favored class, but still.


PRCs like Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight don't count because of examples like this being Obvious Garbage that would apply to _literally every_ Prestige Class rendering them unusable, it's base classes only. So for this to kick in, you need to spend _at least_ four levels on a 3/1 split _on top_ of the LA (whether +1 or +2), instead of just a level or two of one Martial to get the PRCs going. And the most common reason for such a split is to get beyond-1st subsystem access, so Sorcerer is poor for taking 4 levels, with Bard being a much better benefit for such if you really aren't scaling up the casting.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> And I really can't take the Barbarian/Warblade suggestion seriously. You are _going_ to suffer horrible progression crippling that way, whether from taking enough Barbarian levels to avoid multiclassing penalty or from the penalty itself. Plus Barbarian's benefits are redundant with Tiger Claw and its detriments actually cripple one of Warblade's big advantages in Diamond Mind, and the template bumps Wis/Cha, not Int, so you're actively ignoring even a bit of its ability scores.


Pretty sure that slash means "or," not "and".




> And when you're talking builds that are dip-reliant like most Martial setups and nearly all Gish entry strategies, Favored Class is _really bloody important_ to being able to maintain a sane progression rate, so shifting that is actually a pretty major advantage by making it _possible_ to get away with one-level Martial dips for Proficiencies to start PRCs. Having Favored Class Sorcerer means you can dip freely, having Favored Class Fighter means you have to either mainline it or dip _only_ Fighter.


First: Keep in mind that we're assuming that the DM is using the multiclass XP penalty rules. Any importance this could have is limited to that edge case.
Second: Favored Class is, by its design, _one class_. You unlock builds that specifically have _sorcerer_ as the main class and a bunch of non-sorcerer dips. And only if none of those dips are more than one level deeper than the others.
Third:



> PRCs like Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight don't count because of examples like this being Obvious Garbage that would apply to _literally every_ Prestige Class rendering them unusable, it's base classes only.


I had forgotten that element, but I don't think it actually helps your side overall. It narrows the range of builds where multiclass XP penalties could apply even further.

So Favored Class is an element that will rarely have _any_ impact on a character, both because hardly anyone uses those rules _and_ because they only apply to a narrow range of builds even when those rules _are_ used. Again: Bonds/Traits/Flaws have a more consistent mechanical impact than Favored Class, because they actually apply to every character (and also because more people use Inspiration than Multiclass XP Penalties, but mostly the first thing).

----------


## Remuko

> I can't see the posts you are replying to.


He was quoting a post someone made in a previous LA Assignment Thread. The post he was replying to isnt in this thread, thats why you didnt see it.

----------


## Debatra

Actually it was because he quoted his own message to get the text instead of editing it before deleting it after absolutely not accidentally posting it in the last thread. Quotes don't show up within quotes, probably so conversations don't end up with monstrous quote chains in a single post.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> Actually it was because he quoted his own message to get the text instead of editing it before deleting it after absolutely not accidentally posting it in the last thread.


In my defense, the Edit and Quote buttons are right next to each other.

...also, if anyone asks, I have no idea what you're talking about.

----------


## Debatra

+2 - loky1109, Beni-Kujaku, Troacctid, Mystic Muse, remetagross, H_H_F_F, Metastachydium, Thurbane
+1 - Remuko, Morphic tide

*+2* it is, then. Next up is the Aleithian Dwarf, a creature that actually has a specific "X as a character" section to make life easier for me.

----------


## Debatra

Dwarf, Aleithian

*Size & Type:* Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
*Space/Reach:* 5'/5'
*HD:* 1
*Speed:* 20'
*Ability Scores:* Str +0, Dex +0, Con +2, Int +2, Wis +0, Cha -4 - Net +0, one penalty
*Natural Armor:* 0
*Natural Weapons:* N/A
*Skill List:* By Class (+2 Racial on Craft related to Crystal, Metal, or Stone)
*Body Shape:* Humanoid
*Speech (Languages):* Yes (Dwarven, Common - Bonus Languages: Draconic, Terran, Undercommon)
*CR:* 1/2 if a 1st-level Warrior
*WotC LA:* +0
*Our LA:* +0

It's a Psionic Dwarf, with both a few neat abilities and some drawbacks that should theoretically even it out but realistically probably don't. Light Sensitivity has a few ways to be ignored aside from just not going out in the day, and while we frown on rating these creatures with the assumption that players will be minmaxing, Charisma is already a common dump stat even if you aren't.

So as far as what you can do that normal Dwarves already can, you have Stonecunning and the +2 bonus to saves against poison. Your Darkvision also goes out to 90' instead of the normal 60. You lack Stability (because this is 3.0 content, which means a proper update might give you that) and the +2 to saves against spells and SLAs, instead having a +2 on specifically Will saves against psionics. You have no other abilities that are common to regular Dwarves, at least not the 3.5 ones.

You can also manifest Ectoplasmic Repair and Finger of Fire each 3/day as PLAs, ML1 and no listed ability score to base the DC on.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

Seems like an easy *+0* to me, unless I'm missing something. Being worse against spells and SLAs is a nerf, but having +2 to Con and Int is good. PLAs are nice to have. It's a good subsystem race, probably even very good, but not stronger than e.g. an Azurin.

----------


## loky1109

Agree with easy +0.

----------


## Troacctid

*+0* is appropriate, although I will say that it is potentially a very strong +0, depending on how you update those 3.0 psionics.

----------


## H_H_F_F

Very good *+0*, IMO.

----------


## Thurbane

Again, very wonky on psionics, especially 3.0 psionics, but this looks like a very strong *LA +0* to me. Could be persuaded to +1 depending on exactly what the 3.5 conversion of it's psionics does: anyone hep me out with that?

_Side note:_ great chassis for a Int based caster. A Wizard can easily afford to dump Cha, and extra Con is always welcome. Bonuses to Int for LA +0 creatures are fairly uncommon.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

Agree on strong *+0*. I think we should just ignore 3.0 attack/defense modes since there's no good way to update them while keeping the spirit and the power level of the creature.

----------


## Tzardok

> Again, very wonky on psionics, especially 3.0 psionics, but this looks like a very strong *LA +0* to me. Could be persuaded to +1 depending on exactly what the 3.5 conversion of it's psionics does: anyone hep me out with that?
> 
> _Side note:_ great chassis for a Int based caster. A Wizard can easily afford to dump Cha, and extra Con is always welcome. Bonuses to Int for LA +0 creatures are fairly uncommon.


I did a short look through my list of powers and the 3.0 Psionics Handbook and came to the following conclusions:

_Ectoplasmic repair_ was converted to 3.5 here. It's essentially a slightly more powerful form of _mending._ It can be used as is.

_Finger of fire_ was a 0th level power, which don't exist in 3.5 anymore. It's basically _ray of frost_ with fire. When converting this creature, one could replace it with the slightly more powerful _energy ray_ (restricted to fire), but as the point of this race is a specialization on metacreativity, I would think that _crystal shard_ (1d6 piercing on a ranged touch attack) or _bolt_ (creates temporary arrows, crossbowbolts or sling bullets with +1) would be a better fit.

The 3.5 version of _empty mind_ at 3/day can stay that way (it's +2 to will saves as an Immediate action for 1 round).

The big problem is _ego whip._ The 3.5 version is 2nd level (all other powers I suggested are 1st) and too changed in its effect. As the old version of _ego whip_ attacked Dex, I would offer as a thematically fitting alternative _entangling ectoplasm_ 3/day (hit the target with a ranged touch attack to entangle it for 5 rounds).

Lastly, I would make saves dependant on Int (not that any of those powers allows a save), and either keep the ML 1 or change it to ML=character level.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

I'll note that with LA Buyoff I could definitely see these guys getting +1, at least if you also converted the attack and defense modes to 3.5 equivalents.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> Dwarf, Ale-ithian


My intuition is *+0*, +1 if it gets the absent 3.5 dwarf traits (or a more generous psionic update).

----------


## Debatra

Easy *+0*. Moving on to the Ecto Fragments.

----------


## Debatra

Ecto Fragments

*Size & Type:* Fine (Speck, Minim), Diminutive (Jot, Bit), Tiny (Mite, Mote) Aberration
*Space/Reach:* Normal for Size
*HD:* 1/4 (Speck, 1/2 (Minim)1, (Jot), 2 (Bit), 3 (Mite), 4 (Mote)
*Speed:* Fly 60' (Perfect)

*Ability Scores (Speck):* Str -10, Dex +2, Con +0, Int -6, Wis -6, Cha +0 - Net -20, three penalties
*Ability Scores (Minim):* Str -8, Dex +2, Con +0, Int -6, Wis -6, Cha +0 - Net -18, three penalties
*Ability Scores (Jot):* Str -6, Dex +4, Con +0, Int -6, Wis -6, Cha +0 - Net -14, three penalties
*Ability Scores (Bit):* Str -4, Dex +4, Con +0, Int -6, Wis -6, Cha +0 - Net -12, three penalties
*Ability Scores (Mite):* Str -6, Dex +6, Con +0, Int -6, Wis -6, Cha +0 - Net -12, three penalties
*Ability Scores (Mote):* Str -4, Dex +8, Con +0, Int -6, Wis -6, Cha +0 - Net -8, three penalties

*Natural Armor:* 0
*Natural Weapons:* N/A
*Skill List:* Spot
*Body Shape:* "floating orbs of goo"
*Speech (Languages):* No
*CR:* 1/3 - 2
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* -0 across the board.

It's pretty much implied these things have no eyes, and therefore probably can't see. Though regardless of if they can, they can sense brain activity (read: non-mindless creatures) within 60'. They also have immunity to mind affecting, poison, sleep, paralysis, stun, polymorph, and precision damage. They are destroyed by Dismiss Ectoplasm.

They also have a handful of at-will Psi-Like Abilities depending on their size, none of which can save then from the -0 pile.

Speck - Far Punch, Minim, Finger of Fire, Jot - Lesser Concussion, Bit - Fire Fall, Mite - Concussion, Mote - Whitefire

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

Horrendous ability scores no item slots and mediocre PLAs. Yeah *-0* for all. A point for +0 for the Jot could be made since being Diminutive is good and 60ft Perfect flying is invaluable as well as immunity to mind affecting. That said I don't currently think it balances the body shape but could be swayed.

----------


## Thurbane

Yeah, can't get psyched about this: I'll vote *-0* all around and be done with it.

----------


## ff7hero

I do think a Jot could make a unique and interesting Wilder, but that's probably not enough to save it (or any of these) from a *-0*.

----------


## Troacctid

*-0* for bit, mite, and mote. *+0* for speck, minim, and jot. It's not great, but if I'm not paying hit dice for it, I could easily see taking this over something like half-elf or goblin. Fine size is cool and unique.

----------


## loky1109

*-0* for all. Jot... is slightly better, but I don't think it worth +0.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

First off: The creatures are never _stated_ to be blind anywhere, and the only implication that they are comes from the fact that they only react to things their brain sense can sense. Plus, they have darkvision. Just one or the other could be iffy editing, but together there's a strong argument that they can see at least 60 feet. If they can't, if the fragment would constantly bump into furniture or ceilings and couldn't sense the zombies shambling towards it, definite -0. Brain sense alone is acceptable for a monster, but unacceptable on a PC.


At low levels, a fragment wilder would rely on its PLAs to do _anything_ once its power points run out. So let's look at them!
_Far punch_: 1 force damage._Finger of fire_: 1d3 fire damage._Lesser concussion_: 1d6 nonlethal damage.
I'd say it would be more worthwhile to use a weapon, but echo fragments don't have hands. Yeesh. And at higher levels, the lack of magic items is gonna be killer.

Maybe a CG warlock with Vow of Poverty would work? You wouldn't need to worry about running out of resources, VoP gives you benefits for not using items, and warlocks don't really need Strength, Intelligence, or Wisdom (more than an ordinary characterWill saves and skill points are gonna suck).


Compare this to, say, a half-elf. The half-elf has hands and item slots, non-negligible Str/Int/Wis, and access to a bunch of elf support. The fragment is small, flies, has a situational but handy sense, and gets an extra cantrip. Also some immunities, but those come with a no-save instant-death weakness, so let's call that a wash. I can definitely see encounters where the fragment would have a big edge...but in general, it's gonna struggle at anything that can't be solved with flight or an eldritch blast.

*-0*

----------


## Debatra

I did only say it's implied they're blind. Also, WotC always lists things like darkvision even on creatures that are _explicitly_ blind. That said, it's entirely reasonable to say these aren't. Doesn't really save them from the trash heap though.

That said, the flavor text does mention that they just float along whatever breeze takes them until they sense non-ectoplasmic brain activity. Still though, not explicitly blind.

*EDIT:* And *-0* it is. Time for the Blood Elemental.

----------


## Debatra

Blood Elemental

*Size & Type:* Medium Outsider
*Space/Reach:* 5'/5'
*HD:* 5, 6 (Large), 11 (Huge)
*Speed:* 20', Swim 90'
*Ability Scores:* Str +6, Dex +2, Con +6, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +8 - Net +22, no penalties
*Natural Armor:* 9
*Natural Weapons:* One Primary Slam (1d8)
*Skill List:* Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Swim
*Body Shape:* Water Elemental made of blood
*Speech (Languages):* "Yes" (Incomprehensible to all but each other)
*CR:* 6
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* +0

As mentioned when we rated the Blood Mother:



> Fluff text specifies that these are actually from an Outer Plane that some low level NPC nobody misidentified as the Elemental Plane of Blood which it very much isn't.


(Also, the fluff text on this one gives a bit more detail than the Mother's did on said NPC, who is actually somewhat interesting.)

They are immune to mind affecting, precision damage, and stunning. They have DR 5/magic.

Its Bloodbath ability lets it engulf creatures up to its size into its bloody mass with a grapple check, potentially drowning them within itself. Surviving creatures that escape or are disgorged take 1d6 Wisdom damage as well as needing to make a Charisma-based Fortitude save vs 2d6 rounds of nausea.

Once per day, a Blood Elemental can use a CL13 Insanity spell as a Su ability, with a Charisma-based save to avoid.

Just like the Mothers before them, Blood Elementals are Incomprehensible. Their gurgling language can only be understood by Blood Elementals and Blood Mothers, and they can not understand any other kind of verbal communication. Even magical translation is useless. A Pearl of Speech should work in theory, because they let a creature speak a specific language. Might not though, and possibly less likely to work than with a Mother. Magical translation specifically doesn't work to translate the language of Blood Mothers/Elementals.

The Blood Mother primarily got its -0 rating because it was Epic level. This thing on the other hand has almost comparable stats; a little over a third of the net total ability scores with about a fifth of the RHD, and most of the same abilities. And hey, if you decide you want to be big like mommy, you only need one more RHD to be Large.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

There was even a question of the Blood Mother being +0 because it also has 13th level cleric casting (and +20 Dex). This one is an outsider but otherwise has low stats for a Medium grappler. Granted it's a great rider on grappling but being Medium is bad. I honestly think I'd rather play the Large version for 1 RHD more. Insanity is devastating on PCs but lackluster on monsters and DR/magic is bad. I'm torn between +0 and -0 but I think I'll go with *LA-0*.(Edit: make that *LA+0*)


Also that weird backstory means that this is probably the only monster with "Elemental" in the name that isn't an Elemental. Does that mean it qualifies for Bloodstained template? That would be very flavorful.

----------


## ff7hero

I know Charisma isn't solely about physical attractiveness, but I still get a kick out of something like an amorphous man-sized bloodblob having +8 Cha.

*-0* from me, but not the least salvageable -0.

Re: Bloodstained, that would require soaking blood in blood, wouldn't it? That seems like a "can water be wet?" situation.

----------


## Tzardok

The fluff of bloodsoaked says that the creature's base material needs to be drenched in blood. How do you imagine blooddrenched blood?  :Small Confused:

----------


## Troacctid

If you advance it to Large, you get a bunch more stat boosts, and grappling suddenly becomes a very attractive strategy. Elemental HD aren't great, but the immunities that they come with help make up for the weaker base stats (and this one even has bonus mind-affecting immunity). The ability bonuses are above par for the ECL, averaging a very impressive +4.4/HD at Medium or +5.3/HD at Large, and the high Charisma here also allows for a smooth and easy transition into a paladin type, and potentially combos well with SLA-granting templates. _Insanity_ kind of sucks, but at least it'll have a good save DC. I think the blood elemental compares well against a human with comparable class levels.

I'm going with *+0*, but I could be talked up to +1.

----------


## ff7hero

> If you advance it to Large, you get a bunch more stat boosts, and grappling suddenly becomes a very attractive strategy. Elemental HD aren't great, but the immunities that they come with help make up for the weaker base stats (and this one even has bonus mind-affecting immunity). The ability bonuses are above par for the ECL, averaging a very impressive +4.4/HD at Medium or +5.3/HD at Large, and the high Charisma here also allows for a smooth and easy transition into a paladin type, and potentially combos well with SLA-granting templates. _Insanity_ kind of sucks, but at least it'll have a good save DC. I think the blood elemental compares well against a human with comparable class levels.
> 
> I'm going with *+0*, but I could be talked up to +1.


They're Outsider HD btw, much better than Elemental.

----------


## Caelestion

They're an outsider with good stats and defences.  I'm going with *LA +0.*

----------


## danielxcutter

Actually does anyone have the archive link for the Blood Mothers?

----------


## Debatra

> Actually does anyone have the archive link for the Blood Mothers?


Here you go.

----------


## danielxcutter

> Here you go.


Thanks! Maybe we should change the link in the original post for Blood Mothers though.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> The fluff of bloodsoaked says that the creature's base material needs to be drenched in blood. How do you imagine blooddrenched blood?


That's simple. You take your pool of blood then you pour blood into it. Blooddrenched blood is just MORE BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! 




> If you advance it to Large, you get a bunch more stat boosts, and grappling suddenly becomes a very attractive strategy. Elemental HD aren't great, but the immunities that they come with help make up for the weaker base stats (and this one even has bonus mind-affecting immunity).


It doesn't have Elemental immunities but it has Outsider hit points. And yeah factoring the stat boosts when going up a size category I'd say this is good enough for *+0* even with no speech and questionable limbs. Change my vote to that.

----------


## danielxcutter

And it does have some elemental-esque traits like crit immunity.

----------


## loky1109

I'd say *+0* here.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> The fluff of bloodsoaked says that the creature's base material needs to be drenched in blood. How do you imagine blooddrenched blood?


Maybe you use a different kind of blood than that which the blood elemental is made out of.

And I'll support *+0* for the blood elemental.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

Definitely *+0 for 6RHD (large)*. Don't know if the 5RHD version is worth +0 or not; I'll abstain until I see more arguments.

----------


## Troacctid

> They're Outsider HD btw, much better than Elemental.


I didn't even notice, but that's even better.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> I did only say it's implied they're blind.


Just because you say something doesn't mean I'm not gonna rephrase it in my own analysis. I have no compunctions against being redundant, particularly if I'm only being a _little_ redundant!





> The fluff of bloodsoaked says that the creature's base material needs to be drenched in blood. How do you imagine blooddrenched blood?


Kinda like oil-drenched water, except with two different kinds of blood.


Alright, let's take a moment to consider incomprehensible:



> *Incomprehensible (Ex):* Because of its alien mentality, a blood elemental does not understand verbal communication of any sort, nor can its own gurgling language be understood by any creature except its own kind. A blood elemental is immune to all language-dependent spells and effects, and no mundane or magical effect that usually allows verbal communication (including a tongues spell or a monk's tongue of the sun and moon ability) functions with respect to it.


On one hand, this isn't great. On the other hand, it specifies _verbal_ communication. Sign language is absolutely on the table! So there's wiggle room to let this guy interact with other party members.

I'm not sure how good a grappling rider Bloodbath really is. Drowning is slow, and the Wisdom damage and nausea only occur upon ejecting the victim. Maybe if the blood elemental engulfed and immediately ejected its victims? (Ejection seems to be a free action...) But of course this doesn't work on enemies bigger than the blood elemental.
I feel it's also worth pointing out that blood elementals get a +5 racial bonus on grapple checks.

Aside from Bloodbath, not much really stands out. Immunity to mind-affecting effects and stunning is pretty big; neither of those is especially common, but they're devastating, so cool. 1/day _insanity_, a bit of DR, immunity to critical hits, a quick swim speed, a slam comparable to the one-handed weapons it probably can't wield, natural armor comparable to the plate armor it probably can't wear...

Actually, _cause insanity_ is worth a little inspection. First off, it's a 7th-level spell that can be used as a supernatural ability once a day. On the other hand, that spell is basically just a 4th-level spell that affects fewer targets for longer. Oh, and nonliving creatures can be affected by _confusion_ but not _insanity_ for some reason. Anyways, as a combat debuff it's way less potent than "7th-level spell cast at ECL 5" sounds, and I struggle to think of a noncombat use for _insanity_ beyond "ruin someone's life, but nonlethally".

I dunno. It works very _differently_ than most comparable grapplers, but not in a way that's obviously superior or inferior. Tentative *+0*. Adding one HD to make yourself Large is definitely worth the investment, but another five to be Huge probably ain't worth five levels of anything else. Even five levels of something like monk would be better than five dead levels plus a size increase...especially if you're in a campaign with lots of 10-foot corridors. (Huge is where your size stops just being a doorways-and-towns sort of impairment.)

----------


## Troacctid

> Actually, _cause insanity_ is worth a little inspection. First off, it's a 7th-level spell that can be used as a supernatural ability once a day. On the other hand, that spell is basically just a 4th-level spell that affects fewer targets for longer. Oh, and nonliving creatures can be affected by _confusion_ but not _insanity_ for some reason. Anyways, as a combat debuff it's way less potent than "7th-level spell cast at ECL 5" sounds, and I struggle to think of a noncombat use for _insanity_ beyond "ruin someone's life, but nonlethally".


Generally speaking, nonliving creatures are immune to all mind-affecting effects.

----------


## danielxcutter

Hmm. Would telepathy work for getting around Incomprehensible?

----------


## Debatra

The first line of Incomprehensible is "Because of its alien mentality[...]", so I would assume not.

...Which actually kinda rules out a Pearl of Speech as well.

Oh, and because I just copy/pasted from my post on the Blood Mother, I neglected to mention the fact that they can't understand other languages either. Sorry about that.

----------


## Caelestion

Well, they specified _verbal_ twice.  You'd think that such specificity would be exclusive.

----------


## ff7hero

> Well, they specified _verbal_ twice.  You'd think that such specificity would be exclusive.


I'm not an expert on the matter, but does Telepathy usually specify whether it is verbal or more...empathic I guess is what non-verbal Telepathy would be called?

(I think the confusion might be people thinking verbal=spoken. It just means "in the form of words.")

----------


## Caelestion

Huh.  That is a good point.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> I'm not an expert on the matter, but does Telepathy usually specify whether it is verbal or more...empathic I guess is what non-verbal Telepathy would be called?
> 
> (I think the confusion might be people thinking verbal=spoken. It just means "in the form of words.")


A lot of Telepathy mention "every creature who has a language". In that case I'd guess this is a verbal communication even if it bypasses language barriers. On the other hand other kinds of telepathies do not. For example the familiar-master telepathy is very explicitly nonverbal and empathic.

----------


## emulord

One advantage of being made of blood is I imagine you can draw symbols on the ground to get your point across to your allies even if it is done without words.

Medium seems on par for stat boosts, but without being able to use weapons or gear effectively it seems like you have to use some kind of build where your grappling or stats are the relevant aspect. Monk, Rogue, Scout (aquatic campaign), some kind of tome of battle class etc.
Large would be able to grapple relevant foes and just mess them up, so its a more restricted build path with a higher power ceiling.

Calling *+0* for medium, *+1* for large, *-0* for huge.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> Generally speaking, nonliving creatures are immune to all mind-affecting effects.


It's still weird that _insanity_ specified "living" and _confusion_ didn't.





> Hmm. Would telepathy work for getting around Incomprehensible?


By RAW, arguably. By RAI, it shouldn't.





> (I think the confusion might be people thinking verbal=spoken. It just means "in the form of words.")


Casual reminder that words can have more than one definition.



> verbal [ vur-buhl ]SHOW IPA
> 
> adjective
> 1. of or relating to words: verbal ability.
> 2. consisting of or in the form of words: verbal imagery.
> 3. expressed in spoken words; oral rather than written: verbal communication; verbal agreement. (_emphasis mine_)
> 4. consisting of or expressed in words (as opposed to actions): a verbal protest.
> 5. pertaining to or concerned with words only (as opposed to ideas, facts, or realities): a purely verbal distinction between two concepts.
> 6. corresponding word for word; verbatim: a verbal translation.
> ...


You _could_ make a RAW argument that "verbal communication" only means "communication of verbs," so the blood elemental can express and understand nouns and modifiers just fine. But nobody would agree with you, because that's not what people generally mean when they say "verbal communication". As indicated by dictionary.com, "verbal communication" is generally associated with definition #3 rather than, say, definition 2 or 5.

I feel kinda dirty for going all _argumentum ad dictionarium_, but you're the one who brought formal definitions into it, so my conscience _should_ be clean.

----------


## Thurbane

Weird creature.

I might do a detailed writeup if I get time before we move on, but for now, I think I'll go *+1*. Good ability mods, solid immunities, some decent special attacks, on a chassis of the equal best HD type. Downsides are lost levels due to number of HD, weird body type, and the Incomprehensible quality.

I'd maybe go into some kind of martial adept for this one...

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

In "Iggwilvs Legacy: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth" (the place the Cauchimera is from), at p24, there is a creature called a Pech that is described. After some superficial research, it's a minor Earth Elemental resembling a squirrel from 1st and 2nd edition. However, it's not in MM6 and I didn't find where else it has been published. Did I overlook something or should the pech be added to Monster Manual VI?

Edit: same thing with the Tooth Golem, page 89.

----------


## Thurbane

> In "Iggwilvs Legacy: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth" (the place the Cauchimera is from), at p24, there is a creature called a Pech that is described. After some superficial research, it's a minor Earth Elemental resembling a squirrel from 1st and 2nd edition. However, it's not in MM6 and I didn't find where else it has been published. Did I overlook something or should the pech be added to Monster Manual VI?
> 
> Edit: same thing with the Tooth Golem, page 89.


Thank you for bringing these to my attention, I will add them to my online monster list now.

The Pech I just flat out missed. I remember these little guys from the 1E MM2. Always happy to discover a 1E monster that got a 3.5 update.



With the Tooth Golem, I thought it was an existing creature: I think I was mixing it up with the Fang Golem (MM4) and/or Tooth Beast (ToM).

----------


## remetagross

I would gladly pay 1 RHD (even more so of the outsider type) to nab a +8 to Str, +4 to Con, -2 to Dex, +2 to NA and thusly +4 to Grapple. This monster has impressive stats and immunities and a nasty rider on grapples. Going Bear Totem Barbarian to nab Improved Grab seems excellent. The one drawback of these guys is the inability to verbally communicate...but Drow Sign Language is available to anyone for at most 2 skill points, and is anyway useful for the whole party.

I'll give *LA+1* to these dudes, and I'm honestly considering LA+2 (looking at a dedicated grappling build). The awesome stat modifiers and immunites make up for the lack of class features to me.

----------


## Debatra

+0 - Beni-Kujaku, Troacctid, Caelestion, loky1109, InvisibleBison, GreatWyrmGold, emulord
-0 - ff7hero, Thurbane, remetagross




> Definitely *+0 for 6RHD (large)*. Don't know if the 5RHD version is worth +0 or not; I'll abstain until I see more arguments.





> Calling *+0* for medium, *+1* for large, *-0* for huge.


Once again, we're rating the base version with 5 RHD. The 6HD bit is just a note on advancement for those cases where it may be desirable (as this one actually seems to be for some builds). If there are actually different versions for different levels of RHD (such as with True Dragons), it will be called out as such.

Looks like a solid *+0*. Next up is the Ectoplasm Elemental... which actually has those different versions for different sizes.

---




> How exactly did you come to +1 with half a dozen people saying +0 and only a single one voting for +1?


A typo is how. Fixed.

----------


## Tzardok

How exactly did you come to +1 with half a dozen people saying +0 and only a single one voting for +1?

----------


## Debatra

Ectoplasm Elemental

*Size & Type:* Small-Huge Elemental (Water)
*Space/Reach:* Normal for its size.
*HD:* 2 (Small), 4 (Medium), 8 (Large), 16 (Huge), 21 (Huge, Greater), 24 (Huge, Elder)
*Speed:* 40', Swim 40'

*Ability Scores (Small):* Str +0, Dex +0, Con +0, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net -6, one penalty
*Ability Scores (Medium):* Str +4, Dex +4, Con +4, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +6, one penalty
*Ability Scores (Large):* Str +8, Dex +8, Con +6, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +16, one penalty
*Ability Scores (Huge):* Str +10, Dex +10, Con +8, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +22, one penalty
*Ability Scores (Greater):* Str +12, Dex +12, Con +8, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +26, one penalty
*Ability Scores (Elder):* Str +14, Dex +14, Con +8, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +30, one penalty

*Natural Armor:* 4 (Small), 5 (Medium), 6 (Large), 8 (Huge+)
*Natural Weapons:* One Primary Slam (1d4 S, 1d6 M, 2d6 L, 2d8 H, + same dice of acid)
*Skill List:* Listen, Spot
*Body Shape:* Humanoid blob
*Speech (Languages):* Not noted, presumably no.
*CR:* 1-11
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* -0 across the board

Immunity to acid, Improved Grab for one size category smaller than itself for its slam, and DR (5/- L+H, 10/- G+E). The acid damage from its slam also sticks around for a bit, forcing its victims to make a Fortitude save... that isn't based on any ability score and is therefore just 10+1/2HD... to avoid taking the same amount of damage again on the round after being struck. Dismiss Ectoplasm only stuns it for 1d4 rounds instead of the normal effects.

Finally, it can Envelop creatures smaller than itself, or two creatures that are at least two size categories smaller than it. The target gets a Reflex save (again, no attribute bonus to the DC) to avoid. Once captured, it can not physically escape. Each round spent Enveloped deals acid damage appropriate to the Ectoplasm Elemental's size.

----------


## Caelestion

An anime water girl can't possibly be the _actual_ art WotC used, right?

----------


## H_H_F_F

I think this is pretty clearly *-0*, right?

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> An anime water girl can't possibly be the _actual_ art WotC used, right?


WotC didn't use _any_ art.
I suppose we should be glad Debatra didn't come across a Monster Musume image first...


The ectoplasm elemental doesn't have _nothing_. Its slam deals as much damage an equivalently-sized greatsword (more for Large+ ones), even ignoring the sticky acid damage; Engulf is a neat ability, even if it's only useful on smaller enemies, the elemental type doesn't have any good size-changing effects, and the ectoplasm elemental still seems to be grappled while using it; and DR/- is always nice.
But the elementals with few enough HD to be considered are small enough that their grappling abilities are only useless on harmless vermin and Ratlar the Rat Witch. That basically leaves them with a slam comparable to a normal weapon, damage reduction, and a heap of situational immunities. Oh, and if you shake hands with a peasant they're gonna go to the ER. *-0*

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

I mean that's just a Fire elemental with worse stats and worse speed. Engulf won't come up before you have too many HD to be viable. 4 natural armor is good on a 2RHD creature but the inability to wield weapon and the absence of any useful ability makes it uninteresting. *-0* for all.

----------


## danielxcutter

> An anime water girl can't possibly be the _actual_ art WotC used, right?


Mores the pity, really.




> WotC didn't use _any_ art.
> I suppose we should be glad Debatra didn't come across a Monster Musume image first...


Coward. :p

----------


## ff7hero

*-0*

Unless they're canonically blob girls, because that's one case I'll use WotC's softbanning method and give them +5 LA.

----------


## Glimbur

What if you psywar so you can get big enough to engulf with low hd? Still voting -0.

----------


## loky1109

I'm agree. *-0*

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> What if you psywar so you can get big enough to engulf with low hd? Still voting -0.


-0, but...

An ectoplasm elemental 2/psychic warrior 1 can become Medium, letting her engulf goblins. Ectomental 4/psywar 1 or ectomental 2/psywar 7 lets her become Large and engulf normal mooks. She would need ectomental 4/psywar 7 to engulf larger bruisers, and it's not worth considering what it would take to engulf something Huge or Gargantuan.

But unless there's a Persistent Power metapsychic feat or something, you're only getting that for a handful of rounds per manifestation.

----------


## Thurbane

Looks like an easy *-0* to me.




> +0 - Beni-Kujaku, Troacctid, Caelestion, loky1109, InvisibleBison, GreatWyrmGold, emulord
> -0 - ff7hero, Thurbane, remetagross


Not sure it would affect the outcome, but my vote was actually +1, not -0.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

I'm wondering, what makes a creature an elemental? If it's just "being made from the stuff of a plane", then most outsiders should be elementals. The blood elemental is an outsider despite being very clearly made of the stuff of the demiplane of blood. Right now, "true" elementals include the four elements, a few paraelementals, Taint, Shadow and Ectoplasm elementals. Taint elementals are created from taint (which may or may not come from the Abyss), but are explicitly said to not be true elementals as they are not created from the four elements. Shadow elementals lack this language, and seem to be real elementals in all regards, and darkness elementals in 2e were in a way quasi-elementals of shadow and negative energy (though they are considered elementals while the nightshades are considered undead). There was never a positive or negative energy elemental, though quasi-elementals of the four elements and negative and positive energy existed in 2e.

Until now, all elementals were creatures mostly composed of the stuff from five specific inner planes and their combinations: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Shadow. But the Ectoplasm Elemental... isn't. The Demiplane of Ectoplasm is in the middle of the Astral Plane, and cannot be reached through the Ethereal like the inner planes. It works like an elemental, but it's like the taint elemental in that it's not made of the same thing. I feel like the wizards and scholars of the D&D world call "elementals" every formless thing that is easy to summon, which incidentally means the creatures from the closest planes to the material planes: the inner planes and the plane of shadow. Afterwards, everything that can easily be summoned that didn't look like anything they knew (ectoplasm elemental, taint elemental, blood elemental), they called elementals without regards to if that made sense. And I'm not sure if "wizards" here does mean "Wizards" or just the in-game wizards.

----------


## danielxcutter

The blood elemental is stated to be kind of a misnomer, to be fair.

----------


## Debatra

Yeah, the lore makes it clear that what some guy dubbed "the Elemental Plane of Blood" is actually some kind of quasi-Lovecraftian alien dimension.

----------


## Tzardok

The description of outsider in the Monster Manuals mentions that they are made at least partially out of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of other planes, with the implication that elementals are made of material. Also, elementals are homogenous (Edit: or mostly homogenous; see also omnimental), while outsiders in general have at least some kind of anatomy (don't ask me what kind of vital organs you see when vivisecting a lantern archon, but it must have them. Otherwise it would be immune to critical hits and sneak attacks).

To me, the demiplane of ectoplasm reflects some of those demiplanes that existed in 2e on the Ethereal, like the demiplane of electromagnetism. From what I remember, there were Ethereal demiplanes that "mimicked" elemental planes (like electromagnetism, metal or wood) which were also inhabited by elementals. I think the demiplane of ectoplasm is cut from the same cloth (and if it weren't a psionic demiplane, I would propably transfere it to the Ethereal).

----------


## Thurbane

> Yeah, the lore makes it clear that what some guy dubbed "the Elemental Plane of Blood" is actually some kind of quasi-Lovecraftian alien dimension.


I might have even asked this on one of Afroakumar's threads, but I wonder if it's related to The Far Realm...

----------


## Tzardok

> I might have even asked this on one of Afroakumar's threads, but I wonder if it's related to The Far Realm...


Yep, you did. It's on the last page of thread number seven, and the answer you got was this:




> Well, let's see. An actual blood elemental would be summoned from the Deep Ethereal conduits around Ravenloft, but that's not what that thing is - that thing is an outsider labeled "blood elemental" by a mad mage who developed a summoning spell that contacts an Outer Plane in an alternate cosmology (or possibly an unknown layer of the Abyss, which is just as plausible and, as noted, dude was crazy).

----------


## remetagross

This monster sucks. The large one has the best ratio of ability modifiers to HDs but then the fact its abilities' DC does not factor in any ability score makes them very nonthreatening. *LA-0* for all.

----------


## Socksy

> [...]
> *CR:* 1/2 if a 1st-level Warrior
> *WotC LA:* +0
> *Our LA:* __
> 
> It's a Psionic Dwarf [...]


You appear not to have filled in the LA for these guys.

I would also like to vote *-0* for all sizes of goo-girl. Wow, I'm not sure I've ever been up to date and able to vote on one of these threads before.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> I'm wondering, what makes a creature an elemental?


An elemental is made of elemental energy. An outsider is made of planar energy. Simple.

This distinction may seem arbitrary for elemental planes; it may, in fact, _be_ arbitrary. The distinction between, say, a djinn and an air elemental seems to follow the biologist's rule of thumb ("you know it when you see it"). But that's the logic that D&D seems to operate on.

(This is probably part of why 5e dissolved the Outsider classification.)

----------


## Debatra

A clear *-0* across the board. Next is the Elhoriad.

----------


## Debatra

Elhoriad

*Size & Type:* Medium Undead
*Space/Reach:* 5'/5'
*HD:* 5
*Speed:* 30'
*Ability Scores:* Str +6, Dex +6, Con -, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +2 - Net +14, no penalties
*Natural Armor:* 5
*Natural Weapons:* Two Primary Claws (1d4 plus Entropic Touch)
*Skill List:* Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot
*Body Shape:* Humanoid Skeleton
*Speech (Languages):* Not specified, presumably no.
*CR:* 3
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* -0

They look like charred black skeletons, which often causes foes to underestimate them. They have a generally better statline, as well as actual intelligence. They retain the DR 5/bludgeoning and cold immunity of their mindless cousins, though they don't get Improved Initiative as a bonus feat. They're proficient with longswords, which is nice I guess.

They only have one special power, though it's actually quite nice. Whenever an Elhoriad hits an aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, outsider, plant, or vermin with one of its claws, the victim must make a Charisma-based Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of _drain_ to both Strength and Constitution.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

Great, a skeleton without bonus feat and 5 RHD. It is intelligent, and the claw rider is strong but it still misses the mark for me (also, oozes and elementals are immune). *LA -0*

It's more dangerous as a monster than as a PC, and still is only CR 3.

----------


## Socksy

You could probably make a clawlock out of the skeleton. Undead immunities are nice, 5 Undead hit dice are not - does it have any kind of Turn Resistance?

Is there a simple way to get the drain to be a bigger die than a d4? It's been a while since I've done much with 3.5e.

If we're assuming our friend here can't talk I'd give it *-0* for sure. If it can talk... probably still -0 but I'd be less certain.

----------


## loky1109

It looks as *-0*. Useful in some circumstances -0, but still -0.

----------


## remetagross

Debatra, you've put a net ability modifier of +20 for these guys, but it should be +14.

They're cute. Their rider should specify "anything except oozes, undead and elementals", it should be faster. They're an *LA-0* for me, but actually not that far off from an LA+0 - 5 RHDs is just that bit too much.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

On one hand, it has one really cool special ability (weird wording aside). It affects everything except constructs, elementals, oozes, or undead; why not just say "living creature except elementals or oozes," or better yet, cut to the chase and say anything immune to critical hits is immune to Entropic Touch?

Anyways, Entropic Touch weakens enemies you hit, and enemies which don't care about Strength will probably be more Constitution-starved, so the only enemies it's useless against are the ones immune to it. And the ones that can make the saving throwyou'd definitely want to find ways to boost that!

The downside is that there aren't a lot of ways to boost Entropic Touch, and of course that elhoriads don't really have anything else at a level where wizards can fireball, warlocks can (almost) fly all day, and monks get a +1 AC bonus. Unless someone digs up some synergistic prestige class or cheese or something, *-0*.

----------


## Metastachydium

> why not just () cut to the chase and say anything immune to critical hits is immune to Entropic Touch?


_[Sighs.]_ Because _Plants_. Why does everyone keep forgetting about Plants?

----------


## Troacctid

These abilities are more appropriate for a 3 HD monster. *-0*

----------


## Metastachydium

(Speaking of types, Deathless are arguably also immune. Not that anyone cares (or should care) about Deathless.)

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> (Speaking of types, Deathless are arguably also immune. Not that anyone cares (or should care) about Deathless.)


I mean they're positive energy undead they're already immune to ability drain.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> _[Sighs.]_ Because _Plants_. Why does everyone keep forgetting about Plants?


I can't decide whether to say it's because there are hardly any interesting plants, because I forgot plants were immune to crits, or because I forgot about plants.

----------


## danielxcutter

> I can't decide whether to say it's because there are hardly any interesting plants, because I forgot plants were immune to crits, or because I forgot about plants.


Probably yes.

----------


## Tzardok

> I can't decide whether to say it's because there are hardly any interesting plants, because I forgot plants were immune to crits, or because I forgot about plants.


Plants? What's that? Can you eat that?  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Metastachydium

> I can't decide whether to say it's because there are hardly any interesting plants


*WHAT?* Treant's a classic (and their cousins, the grumpy wizened elder and the oversized cactus person saguaro sentinel are _way_ cute), volodni would be the best race ever were it not for the +2 LA, adu'ja's are _fun_, greenbound's a crazy strong template, shambling mounds with their whole "don't mind me, I'm just a playable heap of sapient plant matter punching stuff and trying to get hit by lightning" are made of awesome (I love them!) and _then_ there's stuff like oaken defenders and twig blights _and more_! *How can you say that?*




> Probably yes.





> Plants? What's that? Can you eat that?


Now I hate you both.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> _[Sighs.]_ Because _Plants_. Why does everyone keep forgetting about Plants?


Aren't you the one who forgot that Plants are not weak to fire a few months ago  :Small Big Grin:  ? 

But yeah, you can't ignore the type that brought us the great, often-copied, never matched, the shrieker fungus!


Edit: also, Thurbane, MM6 is missing Vanara, from the same place as Vaati (Mahasarpa campaign). And Spellsong Nightingale.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Aren't you the one who forgot that Plants are not weak to fire a few months ago  ?


_[GRUMPY.]_ I know _I_ am (vulnerable to fire, that is). (Also, why do you have to have so good a memory? It's not fair!)





> But yeah, you can't ignore the type that brought us the great, often-copied, never matched, the shrieker fungus!


The list of people I _hate_ now grows longer and longer.




> Edit: also, Thurbane, MM6 is missing Vanara, from the same place as Vaati (Mahasarpa campaign)


Does it differ from the _OA_ version significantly enough to warrant a separate entry here?

----------


## Tzardok

> The list of people I _hate_ now grows longer and longer.


You want to say your hatred grows, thrives and flowers?  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> Does it differ from the _OA_ version significantly enough to warrant a separate entry here?


Oh, absolutely not, it's the exact same, I just read the statblock and saw that it wasn't in the "reprinted in other books" section of MM6, so I assumed it was only Web. I was mistaken.

----------


## Metastachydium

> You want to say your hatred grows, thrives and flowers?



I _might_ take you off of the list.

----------


## Thurbane

Medium Undead5 RHD (d12 HD, poor BAB, good Will save, 4 skill points/"level")Speed 30 ft+5 natural AC2 claws 1d4 plus entropic touchEntropic touch: Cha based fort save or take 1d4 Str and 1d4 Con drain. Affects most living creature types.DR 5/bludgeoningDarkvision 60 ftImmunity to coldUndead traitsStr +6, Dex +6, Con --, Cha +2: net +14, on non-ability, no penalties.Small, but useful, skill list.
Basically medium humanoid in shape; no mention of speaking or not.

I dunno, I don't think these are as awful as most people have said. I mean, 5 RHD is bad, especially being poor BAB when you're likely to be a melee type. Maybe for a skillmonkey/stealth build?

If you go full BAB you can still hit +16 by ECL 20, and you go initiator, you can still get 9ths. I'd maybe go for a stealthy Swordsage build.

I'm going to vote *+0*, but only just barely.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> *WHAT?* Treant's a classic (and their cousins, the grumpy wizened elder and the oversized cactus person saguaro sentinel are _way_ cute), volodni would be the best race ever were it not for the +2 LA, adu'ja's are _fun_, greenbound's a crazy strong template, shambling mounds with their whole "don't mind me, I'm just a playable heap of sapient plant matter punching stuff and trying to get hit by lightning" are made of awesome (I love them!) and _then_ there's stuff like oaken defenders and twig blights _and more_! *How can you say that?*


I would argue with several of those, especially the ones whose reason for being interesting revolves around mechanical strength. When you whittle it down to shambling mounds, treants, and treant variants that dilute the original treant's interesting-ness more than they add anything new...maybe oaken defenders if they had meaningful lore beyond "dryad bodyguards, have a life cycle," maybe adu'jas if I could find any decent information on them, but even if there were five whole interesting plant monsters, that's less than the other types. Most are just "boring monster, made of wood".

----------


## danielxcutter

Ironglass roses are interesting. Also under-CRed but still interesting.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I would argue with several of those, especially the ones whose reason for being interesting revolves around mechanical strength. When you whittle it down to shambling mounds,


Greenbound's not just strong, you know and the likes of shambling mound are more delightfully quirky than just "dumb brute, hits hard".




> treants, and treant variants that dilute the original treant's interesting-ness more than they add anything new...


Wizened elders are grumpy shrubs that can speak with all plants all day every day and are kind of playable while saguaro sentinels are immune to dehydration and Horrid Wilting because they are cacti full of water. How that diminishes the treant is beyond me.




> maybe oaken defenders if they had meaningful lore beyond "dryad bodyguards, have a life cycle,"


Again, they are weird and quirky and I like that. WotClore is usually pretty stupid, so I often feel like the less a critter's burdened with the better.




> maybe adu'jas if I could find any decent information on them,


So photosynthetizing player races with (among other fun stuff) literal bark for skin (volodni (and it gives something _other than_ DR)) and pretty flower people who are very social and can regrow stuff like a proper planty (adu'ja) are "kind of meh"? Man, that feels _wrong_.




> but even if there were five whole interesting plant monsters,


Come on! That's not the ful list, just some highlights. There's also the (very differently) mininonmancing crazy plant creatures like the yellow musk creeper and the orcwort, the shaped garden bush chasing around tresspassers (topiary guardian) and MORE!




> that's less than the other types.


Oh yeah. Plants can't compete with such gloriously varied types as oozes and constructs (mostly same-y minor variations on a kind of bland theme or painfully silly stuff). And let's not even get into what most undead look like (big heap of rotting flesh, big heap of rotting flesh that drains stats/levels, same in incorporeal, skeleton, a different kind of skeleton, slightly more intelligent rotting heap of flesh/skeleton, two skeletons fused awkwardly together &c. &c.).




> Ironglass roses are interesting. Also under-CRed but still interesting.


I have a certain fondness for the udoroot as well, I must admit (even though it's not taht good).

♣
Back on topic, I kind of want to give the elhoriad a +0 here (goodish stats, immunities, messing with STR _and CON_, no gear-related issues), but it's still kind of on the weak side.

----------


## Caelestion

I'm on the fence here.  If it had 4 HD, I think it would be a solid +0, but with 5 HD, it's low +0 at best.  I think I'll err on the side of caution: *-0 LA.*

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> I'm on the fence here.  If it had 4 HD, I think it would be a solid +0, but with 5 HD, it's low +0 at best.  I think I'll err on the side of caution: *-0 LA.*


Agree with that.

----------


## Debatra

A fairly clear *-0*. I keep wanting to disagree with that, but then I remember that those are Undead RHD. This is a relatively strong -0, but it doesn't quite make the cut for the price you pay for it. Next up is the Ember Spawn.

That said, I have somewhere to be soon, so it'll be a while. In the meantime, I'd like to ask for some help finding the statistics for the Adult Ember Spawn. MM6 currently only has the Larval form, which references alternate stats for an Adult which don't appear in the same PDF.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> A fairly clear *-0*. I keep wanting to disagree with that, but then I remember that those are Undead RHD. This is a relatively strong -0, but it doesn't quite make the cut for the price you pay for it. Next up is the Ember Spawn.
> 
> That said, I have somewhere to be soon, so it'll be a while. In the meantime, I'd like to ask for some help finding the statistics for the Adult Ember Spawn. MM6 currently only has the Larval form, which references alternate stats for an Adult which don't appear in the same PDF.


These magazines were one-shots and as far as I know the monsters they depict weren't printed anywhere else. I have read the article a few times and searched on the internet a bit the first time I read this and the adult form doesn't appear in it or anywhere else on the web it seems. The whole life cycle was already a pretty clear asterisk (what with becoming a disease and dying if the guy makes the save or losing your character for weeks if they don't) this is just even more obvious.

----------


## Debatra

Oh well. Would have been interesting to see how different they are. Especially since the larvae are Fine. The adult apparently gets up to six inches, which brings it right to the border with Diminutive.

Anyway...

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> Oh well. Would have been interesting to see how different they are. Especially since the larvae are Fine. The adult apparently gets up to six inches, which brings it right to the border with Diminutive.
> 
> Anyway...


I don't think we would have lost much. The ember spawns are said to be "most dangerous to humanoids" when in larval form. So the adult is less dangerous than a monster whose powers can be summarized as "jumps deals one damage as it enters your skin then give you like 20 saves and a dozen chances for a DC 15 Heal check before actually doing anything and even when it does the only real effect is being blinded". 

I suspect the adult would be "the same but diminutive 30ft flying speed bite deals an additional 1d2 fire damage no anesthetic can lay eggs that hatch after a few weeks"

----------


## Debatra

Ember Spawn Larva
PDF Link, stats start on page 14.

*Size & Type:* Fine Vermin
*Space/Reach:* 6"/0'
*HD:* 1/4
*Speed:* 30', Climb 5'
*Ability Scores:* Str -10, Dex +10, Con +0, Int -, Wis +0, Cha -2 - Net -2, two penalties
*Natural Armor:* 0
*Natural Weapons:* One Primary Bite (1 plus attach)
*Skill List:* Climb (+8 racial, uses Dex, Skill Mastery), Hide, Jump (+8 racial, uses Dex)
*Body Shape:* Larva
*Speech (Languages):* No
*CR:* 1
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* +0* (Advancement to Adult stage)

First thing's first, we're asterisking the ability to advance to an Adult Ember Spawn. Partly because the statblock doesn't seem to exist, and partly because this would probably increase its HD, which we like to avoid. It's a shame too, because the adult seems to have wings and would probably be all-around better. That said, I'll be keeping the Flesh Burrow and Disease otherwise-unaltered since you could still use them, even if it would be a suicidally-bad idea to attempt it.

Immunity to fire is good to have, even with the standard cold vulnerability that comes with it. Improved Initiative is always nice as a bonus feat too. They can also pinpoint the location of any heat source, including warm-blooded creatures, within 60', even if the surrounding heat is larger. So a desert or a burning building won't hide anything from you. That said, an infestation of at least six Ember Spawns in a single host will chill their body to the point where you can't detect them this way. (I'm so sure that will be relevant...) Your mandibles excrete an anesthetic that numbs the pain of your bite, making the wounds you inflict undetectable to the victim except by sight. I can only imagine the sneaky shenanigans you could pull with that.

Notably, you have a built-in way to get around your lack of reach: Leaping Chomp. With a DC 20 Jump check, you can hurl yourself at a target within 5' and attempt your bite attack. It even becomes a ranged attack, meaning you use your far superior Dexterity for the attack roll. No attacks of opportunity, but it's still nice to have.

Whenever you hit something with your bite, regardless of whether it's in regular melee or your Leaping Chomp, you can automatically attach yourself to the target. So Improved Grab without a size limit and automatic success on the initial grapple check. And to compensate for your Fine size and abysmal Strength score on future rolls, you have a _+20 racial bonus_ on grapple checks. There's got to be a few ways to abuse that. To be removed via grappling, you need to be pinned.

And now we come to the parts that we mostly don't care about. The bits that are essentially useless without the ability to advance to the Adult stage. For starters, if you begin your turn Attached to a creature, you can automatically burrow into their flesh, appearing as a lump in their skin. You get a +5 circumstance bonus to Hide while so burrowed. Oh yeah, and you have to _shed your legs_ to do this.

Once inside, the victim must make a fortitude save (whose DC appears to be a flat 14, +1 for each other Ember Span inside them). And if they succeed, you die.

On a failure, you are from then on considered a disease (including the ability to be rid of you with disease-removing magic, implicitly though not explicitly killing you in the process). You feed and incubate for one hour, after which the host must make another save each day, taking 1 point of Con and Cha damage and 1d2 nonlethal cold damage. Taking cold damage like this fatigues them until it's healed. The cold damage also doesn't heal naturally unless the host is either bundled up warmly or near a heat source. Two successful saves in a row, you die. If someone makes a DC15 Heal check on the host, you die. If you're cut out with a slashing weapon (a successful attack against you, for which you have 20% concealment), you die.

After surviving inside your host for a week, you assume pupa form. The Con and Cha damage stops, but not the nonlethal cold damage. You can no longer be killed by a Heal check or by being physically cut out, and the host's fortitude DC increases by five. Three weeks later, you have grown into an Adult Ember Spawn, emerging from one of the host's eye sockets (or elsewhere if they have none). This deals 1 Con damage (which creatures immune to crits are immune to), 1d6 untyped damage, and blinds the eye you came out through.

Honestly, these things are a bit better than I expected them to be. So small, yet with 30' movement speed, a way around 0' reach, and a lot of potential for being a sneaky little bastard. And being a 1-RHD creature is always nice.

----------


## H_H_F_F

These could make for hilarious Binder (Zagan) grapplers. You'd turn the -16 fir fine size to a +4 for being virtually large, and you'd keep the +20 racial bonus. 

Pretty good stuff overall. Can someone remind me what's our policy regarding the benefits of being mindless?

----------


## Debatra

Like with animal intelligence, we just assume some non-specific way to get to at least three Int.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

It's a shame most of the information about these things is lost, because they sound neat. I'm a sucker for monsters with interestingly complicated life cycles, and this sounds like a xenomorph crossed with a trematode ( the _archetypical_ interestingly complicated life cycle). Of course, the Ecology segment makes it sound like the adults are more dragonfly-ishthe larva did everything interesting the critter's gonna do, the adult is just there to mate, lay eggs, and die. Which is a disappointing waste of a facehugger, if you ask me.

Life cycle nerd aside, it probably wouldn't be much fun to play. Aside from a Dexterity of 20 and a +20 racial bonus on Grapple checks, it doesn't have anything. There are some niche builds which can use it, but I feel like you'd get a better grappler from a race with thumbs, item slots, or at minimum a natural attack that doesn't basically kill you.

*-0*. You can't make this a PC without stripping it of everything that makes it interesting.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> That said, I'll be keeping the Flesh Burrow and Disease otherwise-unaltered since you could still use them, even if it would be a suicidally-bad idea to attempt it.
> 
> Whenever you hit something with your bite, regardless of whether it's in regular melee or your Leaping Chomp, you can automatically attach yourself to the target. So Improved Grab without a size limit and automatic success on the initial grapple check. And to compensate for your Fine size and abysmal Strength score on future rolls, you have a _+20 racial bonus_ on grapple checks. There's got to be a few ways to abuse that. To be removed via grappling, you need to be pinned.
> 
> For starters, if you begin your turn Attached to a creature, you can automatically burrow into their flesh, appearing as a lump in their skin.


That's not true. As written Flesh Burrow is not optional. If you begin your turn attached you automatically burrow. That makes the creature's bite attack useless and suicidal by itself and Zagan-based grappling no less hilarious but much more dangerous to yourself (except as a Totemist with improved Grab I guess). Still you are a Fine creature with no RHD and decent movement. 20 Dex and Fine mean the equivalent of +13 to touch AC and a potential Wisdom based manifester will absolutely love it. Does this outvalue the inability to speak and use items? I guess you could make something out of it. *LA+0* for me.

----------


## Debatra

> That's not true. As written Flesh Burrow is not optional. If you begin your turn attached you automatically burrow. That makes the creature's bite attack useless and suicidal by itself and Zagan-based grappling no less hilarious but much more dangerous to yourself (except as a Totemist with improved Grab I guess). Still you are a Fine creature with no RHD and decent movement. 20 Dex and Fine mean the equivalent of +13 to touch AC and a potential Wisdom based manifester will absolutely love it. Does this outvalue the inability to speak and use items? I guess you could make something out of it. *LA+0* for me.


We've been consistently treating those "the creature automatically does X" and similarly-worded abilities as optional up to this point unless it's clear that it's mandatory. Otherwise a lot of monsters' preferred tactics would be mandatory since they're mentioned in the relevant abilities' descriptions.

----------


## remetagross

They're fun little critters. The fact they only get 1 RHD is neat, and vermins have immunity to mind-affecting effects as an added perk. I'll go with *LA+0.*

----------


## ciopo

Does it have 1 RHD, or would it be supplanted by class HD at 1st level like it happens for humanoids?

If it has "0RHD" by virtue of that 1/4HD the combination of size and racial bonuses and ability modifiers are enough for a *+1* to me, otherwise *+0*

----------


## loky1109

I think about *LA +1*.

----------


## Metastachydium

> They're fun little critters. The fact they only get 1 RHD is neat, and vermins have immunity to mind-affecting effects as an added perk. I'll go with *LA+0.*


Vermins only have that beacuse they are Mindless. Once they gain an INT scre, the immunity should arguably go away.

♣
I'm thoroughly confused, I have to say. Yes, fine size is cool, yes it's a funny monster and yes, it has some ludicrous numbers, but it will struggle to put on _any_ gear, use _any_ weapon with _any_ degree of efficacy, cast spells (no language, no chance it can use material components, might have issues with somatic ones). Alright, it grapples stuff. So far so good(ish; grappling's, well, grappling). And then what?

For now, I'll put a *-0* here.

----------


## H_H_F_F

> Vermins only have that beacuse they are Mindless. Once they gain an INT scre, the immunity should arguably go away.
> 
> ♣
> I'm thoroughly confused, I have to say. Yes, fine size is cool, yes it's a funny monster and yes, it has some ludicrous numbers, but it will struggle to put on _any_ gear, use _any_ weapon with _any_ degree of efficacy, cast spells (no language, no chance it can use material components, might have issues with somatic ones). Alright, it grapples stuff. So far so good(ish; grappling's, well, grappling). And then what?
> 
> For now, I'll put a *-0* here.


A spellcasting creature can always use somatic componnents. These things can wiggle something, I'm sure. Nonverbal spell feat could take care of any language issue, if there is one. 

It's doable, and I can see it being worth it for fine size.

----------


## Metastachydium

> A spellcasting creature can always use somatic componnents.


What about a celestial shrieker?




> Nonverbal spell feat could take care of any language issue, if there is one.


No language should count as such, I reckon.




> It's doable, and I can see it being worth it for fine size.


One could just go Sparrow Hengeyokai and stay in little sparrow form all the time. It comes with a 50' fly speed, much better stats _and the ability to assume a form two forms that have none of the drawbacks associated with being a decidedly non-humanoid fine creature_.

This ember larva something is literally worse for every purpose other than grappling which it has precious little to do with. I don't see the appeal, let alone the +1s.

----------


## Ripptor

I was hoping to find a recording of the live session this were created in, but no such luck. I imagine the Adult might still only have 1 RHD (but a full one, not 1/4 as-is here).

I'm on the fence between -0 and +0, since most of the fun stuff is non-PC (and un-statted) and the rest difficult to use effectively, but I'm sure there's something that could be done. I do like the 60' Heat Sense and +20 Grapple, but the lack of hands, item slots, and speech push this towards *-0* for me.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> A spellcasting creature can always use somatic componnents. These things can wiggle something, I'm sure. Nonverbal spell feat could take care of any language issue, if there is one. 
> 
> It's doable, and I can see it being worth it for fine size.


Naturally spellcasting creatures can always use somatic components. Others have to use Surrogate Spellcasting. And the Ember Spawn arguably has no vocal chords that would qualify for "You must still have suitable appendages and vocal organs.". Worms don't scream.




> What about a celestial shrieker?



I think you mean Half-Celestial, since Celestial doesn't even give you SLAs. That said, I don't want to imagine an extraplanar, god-chosen shrieker fungus mating with another. 




> One could just go Sparrow Hengeyokai and stay in little sparrow form all the time. It comes with a 50' fly speed, much better stats _and the ability to assume a form two forms that have none of the drawbacks associated with being a decidedly non-humanoid fine creature_.
> 
> This ember larva something is literally worse for every purpose other than grappling which it has precious little to do with. I don't see the appeal, let alone the +1s.


Hengeyokai is a pretty powerful race and the sparrow variant is arguably overpowered to the point that it's mentioned in a lot of optimization thread as one of, if not the best race LA +0 for a caster. Being worse than that is like saying that a build is worthless because it loses to tier 1 persistomancy. Also, the maggot can walk at a decent speed instead of having to rely on (average) flying for everything, and can deliver touch spells and powers without incurring opportunity attacks. It's not much compared to flying, but it's something.

----------


## loky1109

> "You must still have suitable appendages and vocal organs.". Worms don't scream.


It isn't always true. These caterpillars imitate birds' calls. Not just scream something, but specific sounds.




> That said, I don't want to imagine an extraplanar, god-chosen shrieker fungus mating with another.


Why? It's just spores spreading.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

I'd play one of these for *+0*. Heck, I'd probably play one for +1, but that's because I find the image of one of these tiny little guys leaping onto someone and wrestling them to the ground hilarious.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I think you mean Half-Celestial, since Celestial doesn't even give you SLAs. That said, I don't want to imagine an extraplanar, god-chosen shrieker fungus mating with another.


But then, Half-Celestial doesn't remove mindlessness. Maybe a Half-Celestial Celestial (Celestial-and-a-Half?) Shrieker, then?




> Hengeyokai is a pretty powerful race and the sparrow variant is arguably overpowered to the point that it's mentioned in a lot of optimization thread as one of, if not the best race LA +0 for a caster.


Except maybe for druids, khm, anthropomorphic bat, khm, but yeah,




> Being worse than that is like saying that a build is worthless because it loses to tier 1 persistomancy.


that's fair enough. I'm still not sure fine size and its one trick will carry the ember spawn on itself too far. Looks like taking the caster route promises a pretty feat-hungry trip too. I'll stay on -0 for the time being.




> It isn't always true. These caterpillars imitate birds' calls. Not just scream something, but specific sounds.


Hey, that's pretty cool, actually! I don't think it helps our maggot here, mind you, but it _is_ pretty cool.

----------


## Thurbane

This thing is giving me a headache just looking at it. I'm going to guesstimate *LA +0* and be done with it.

----------


## ciopo

Is it 1RHD , or is it "0" RHD? Not for the creature type, afaik only humanoids and monstrous humanoids have that trait, but does 1/4RHD equal to 0 when converting to adding/using class levels?

There probably has been some precedent?

----------


## Thurbane

> Is it 1RHD , or is it "0" RHD? Not for the creature type, afaik only humanoids and monstrous humanoids have that trait, but does 1/4RHD equal to 0 when converting to adding/using class levels?
> 
> There probably has been some precedent?


Yeah, these threads have always run with any creature type that has 1HD (or a fraction of a HD) swaps it out for first class level.

----------


## H_H_F_F

> Naturally spellcasting creatures can always use somatic components. Others have to use Surrogate Spellcasting.


I don't think you're right about that, Beni.




> A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creatures possession) or having the required component on its person.


"Naturally" isn't a distinction the rules make here, nor do they ever reference innate spellcasting or the like. It's just "spellcasting creature". 

I triple checked that when building Anvil, because Surrogate Spellcasting really didn't seem like it'd work on a whale, even before considering issues with material componnents.

----------


## Thurbane

I always assumed the implication was that the above quote was specifically for creatures with innate casting, but I agree it isn't air tight one way or the other.

----------


## H_H_F_F

> I always assumed the implication was that the above quote was specifically for creatures with innate casting, but I agree it isn't air tight one way or the other.


I mean, RAW seems pretty hard set to me. A human wizard is a spellcasting creature.

I am willing to recognize that RAI is very murky here, though I really tend to think that it's on my side as well. How else do you interpret, say, Unicorn Celestial Charger? Not trying to treat monster blocks as a source for general rules here, but certainly as a supporting argument for my case being RAI, not just RAW.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> I mean, RAW seems pretty hard set to me. A human wizard is a spellcasting creature.
> 
> I am willing to recognize that RAI is very murky here, though I really tend to think that it's on my side as well. How else do you interpret, say, Unicorn Celestial Charger? Not trying to treat monster blocks as a source for general rules here, but certainly as a supporting argument for my case being RAI, not just RAW.


If that was the case then the initial description of Somatic components would make no sense.

*Spoiler: Somatic components*
Show


SOMATIC
A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. An S appears on a spells Components line when a somatic component is required. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

It makes no sense to need a free hand if you can just move your body.

Also the Rules Compendium clarifies that "Spellcasting Creatures" are creatures who cast spells "as a member of a spellcasting class" but "do not gain any class features of the class". So basically creatures with racial spellcasting.

*Spoiler: Rules Compendium*
Show

SPELLCASTING CREATURES
Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can. Such a creature can activate magic items accordingly. Its subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows. A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature still needs material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell either by touching a required component that isnt in another creatures possession or by having the required component on its body. Spellcasting creatures sometimes utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid having to use some material components. A spellcasting creature isnt actually a member of a class and doesnt gain any class features unless its description says otherwise.

----------


## H_H_F_F

> If that was the case then the initial description of Somatic components would make no sense.
> 
> *Spoiler: Somatic components*
> Show
> 
> 
> SOMATIC
> A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. An S appears on a spells Components line when a somatic component is required. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
> 
> ...


Arguement 1 wouldn't really bother me - we're guven a rule (free hand) and then an exception to the rule (creatures without such appendages).

Arguement 2... That's a very strong one. Damn. I really need to get my hands on the Rules Compendium.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Is it 1RHD , or is it "0" RHD? Not for the creature type, afaik only humanoids and monstrous humanoids have that trait, but does 1/4RHD equal to 0 when converting to adding/using class levels?
> 
> There probably has been some precedent?





> Yeah, these threads have always run with any creature type that has 1HD (or a fraction of a HD) swaps it out for first class level.


Thing's also not exclusive to (monstrous) humanoids; out of core, pixies, for instance, have the same clause among their racial traits.

----------


## Socksy

I'm thinking *+1* for this guy. Its stats are too good for a +0, especially if you're planning on being a rogue, swashbuckler, or something similar to that. To get to those late levels where you get penalised for not having gear, you need to survive the earlier levels. 

Your body shape sucks - get someone to graft some arms onto you once you get enough wealth.

----------


## H_H_F_F

*+0* from me, I think.

----------


## Tusen

I'm going to vote +0 as well. It's hard for me to remove the bias of the campaigns I normally play/host, in which the low str score and inevitably low int score would make this a -0, despite its high touch AC. I can imagine it would be good or possibly even worth +1 in very specific campaigns, so I'll go with +0.

----------


## ff7hero

> Thing's also not exclusive to (monstrous) humanoids; out of core, pixies, for instance, have the same clause among their racial traits.


The problem is, as usual, WotC's bizarre organizational choices.




> *Humanoids and Class Levels*
> Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels.


While the heading mentions "humanoids" the rule just uses the more general "creatures."

*+0* for the fire bugs seems fine.

----------


## Socksy

> The problem is, as usual, WotC's bizarre organizational choices.
> 
> While the heading mentions "humanoids" the rule just uses the more general "creatures."


Alright, but I'm not using anything more time-consuming than linear interpolation to calculate how much XP a level something-and-a-quarter creature gets from an encounter. In fact, we might be able to avoid that altogether. For this reason I vote LA +0.75 instead of LA +1.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
> 
> 
> A spellcasting creature can always use somatic componnents. These things can wiggle something, I'm sure. Nonverbal spell feat could take care of any language issue, if there is one.
> 
> 
> What about a celestial shrieker?


They've got verbal components covered pretty well.

----------


## Debatra

-0 - GreatWyrmGold, Metastachydium, Ripptor
+0 - Beni-Kujaku, remetagross, PoeticallyPsyco, Thurbane, H_H_F_F, Tusen, ff7hero
+1 - ciopo, loky1109, Socksy

A surprising *+0** for the Ember Spawn. Next up is the Xag-Az Energon.

...Which probably won't be coming until later tonight or tomorrow. Things have been kind of piling up on me lately. Sorry about all the delays. I'd been intentionally waiting to call the vote here until I was ready to continue in case some new discussion happened, but it's been almost a week of nothing happening in this thread and I figured you guys would like at least some kind of update by now.

----------


## Tzardok

An energon of psychic energy. Well, why not. I'll try to see wether I can convert the 3.0 psionics into something more useful.

Edit: I offer as a conversion:

*Psi-like abilities:* At will - _detect psionics,_ _force screen_ (5 minutes, shield bonus +5*); 3/day - _dismiss ectoplasm,_ _dispell psionics,_ _ego whip_ (DC 16). Manifester level 5th, save DC based on Cha.
*Augmentation already included.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> An energon of psychic energy. Well, why not. I'll try to see wether I can convert the 3.0 psionics into something more useful.
> 
> Edit: I offer as a conversion:
> 
> *Psi-like abilities:* At will - _detect psionics,__force screen_ (5 minutes, shield bonus +5*); 3/day - _dismiss ectoplasm,__dispell psionics,__ego whip_ (DC 16). Manifester level 5th, save DC based on Cha.
> *Augmentation already included.


I really don't understand why we should "update" or more accurately convert attack/defense mode into actual Psi-like abilities. They're abilities that could only be used in very specific circumstances. It was only a very rare occurence in psionic v psionic combat, and was basically never used against nonpsionic characters. The abilities of the monster would not noticeably change by removing them. There's no reason to convert attack/defense modes.

Attack/defense modes are vastly different from their counterpart. Ego Whip dealt dexterity damage and could stun nonpsionic characters by reducing the DC by 8. Current ego whip deals Cha damage. Most of them also were at-will, and there's no reason or guideline to change that to make it more balanced. Defense modes are even worse, since they're just supposed to not be useable outside of Psionic Combat. If you allowed the defense modes to increase your will save or increase your defense, then you would have to convert nonpsionic buffer to give you even more save bonuses against psionic attacks. Psi-like and Psionic Combat were just two different systems that you can't merge without breaking one or the other. There's no way to convert attack/defense modes while keeping the spirit of it.

Attack/defense modes are supposed to be very rarely used, and designed to not really work against nonpsionic opponents. As such, they don't affect the overall power level of the creature. On the other hand, giving any psionic creature an at-will 2nd-level power (in Ego Whip's case, since it seems like it is the "standard" attack mode) definitely changes it, changes the way they fight and should change their CR. Converting attack/defense modes would have unintended consequences that will affect our rating here, and go against most of what we're doing here, which is to rate monsters as written, except considering asterisks (which just remove abilities, they do not change them). The whole point of it is to reduce our arbitrary involvement to the minimum. Updating attack/defense modes to random half-equivalent psi-like powers would be the exact opposite of that.

----------


## Tzardok

Three very simple reasons: 
Because they were updated in most creatures in the XPH.Because psionics in 3.0 were often underpowered, and this gives the creature a power boost.Because why not?

----------


## Debatra

If there was a _consistent_ way Attack/Defense was updated, we could extrapolate it similarly to how we do damage reduction. But there really doesn't seem to be.

----------


## Tzardok

True. My conversion was only a suggestion. I think I'm going to use that from now on, until I see one I like better.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> I really don't understand why we should "update" or more accurately convert attack/defense mode into actual Psi-like abilities. They're abilities that could only be used in very specific circumstances. It was only a very rare occurence in psionic v psionic combat, and was basically never used against nonpsionic characters. The abilities of the monster would not noticeably change by removing them. There's no reason to convert attack/defense modes.
> 
> Attack/defense modes are vastly different from their counterpart. Ego Whip dealt dexterity damage and could stun nonpsionic characters by reducing the DC by 8. Current ego whip deals Cha damage. Most of them also were at-will, and there's no reason or guideline to change that to make it more balanced. Defense modes are even worse, since they're just supposed to not be useable outside of Psionic Combat. If you allowed the defense modes to increase your will save or increase your defense, then you would have to convert nonpsionic buffer to give you even more save bonuses against psionic attacks. Psi-like and Psionic Combat were just two different systems that you can't merge without breaking one or the other. There's no way to convert attack/defense modes while keeping the spirit of it.
> 
> Attack/defense modes are supposed to be very rarely used, and designed to not really work against nonpsionic opponents. As such, they don't affect the overall power level of the creature. On the other hand, giving any psionic creature an at-will 2nd-level power (in Ego Whip's case, since it seems like it is the "standard" attack mode) definitely changes it, changes the way they fight and should change their CR. Converting attack/defense modes would have unintended consequences that will affect our rating here, and go against most of what we're doing here, which is to rate monsters as written, except considering asterisks (which just remove abilities, they do not change them). The whole point of it is to reduce our arbitrary involvement to the minimum. Updating attack/defense modes to random half-equivalent psi-like powers would be the exact opposite of that.


I'm baffled by this whole post, because it's mostly rephrasing the reasons I think 3.0 attack/defense modes need to be updated. They just don't work in the context of 3.5 psionics, or 3.5 _anything_.

This is, of course, countered by the fact that I don't know if there's any way to update them to 3.5.

----------


## jindra34

> I'm baffled by this whole post, because it's mostly rephrasing the reasons I think 3.0 attack/defense modes need to be updated. They just don't work in the context of 3.5 psionics, or 3.5 _anything_.
> 
> This is, of course, countered by the fact that I don't know if there's any way to update them to 3.5.


Here's the big thing to consider about the 3.0 psionic attack/defense modes: They only existed to give the DM the option to hose psionic PCs with their appropriate monsters if they felt like it. Like just cutting them is the most honest conversion given how little most of the classes interacted with them. Psionic combat was a poorly thought out, spiteful mechanic. Its best to just leave it dead.

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## Beni-Kujaku

> I'm baffled by this whole post, because it's mostly rephrasing the reasons I think 3.0 attack/defense modes need to be updated. They just don't work in the context of 3.5 psionics, or 3.5 _anything_.
> 
> This is, of course, countered by the fact that I don't know if there's any way to update them to 3.5.


My point was that they're separate from anything 3.5 and that updating them as Psi-like (or as anything else I can think of but PLA is the most intuitive one) would make no sense and lose the original theme and purpose. Better to discard them entirely than arbitrarily modify monsters like that.

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## Debatra

Xag-Az Energon

*Size & Type:* Medium Outsider (Incorporeal)
*Space/Reach:* 5'/5'
*HD:* 5, 10 (Large)
*Speed:* Fly 20' (Perfect) (The article says 30', but this is presumably including its Speed of Thought feat)
*Ability Scores:* Str -, Dex +6, Con +2, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha +8 - Net +14, one penalty
*Natural Armor:* N/A (ChaMod to Deflection)
*Natural Weapons:* Four Primary Incorporeal Touches (1d6), OR One Primary Energy Ray (1d8)
*Skill List:* Diplomacy, Hide, Search, Sense Motive, Spot
*Body Shape:* Squid-like
*Speech (Languages):* They "do not speak". It doesn't say they can't, but...
*CR:* 5
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* +1

So what's the range on that Energy Ray? Who knows. What about the type of damage it deals? Doesn't say that either, but it's implied that it can be of any of the five main energy types.

Five times per day, it can charge one of its natural attacks to deal an additional 2d8+6 damage of any of the main five energy types. If it hits zero HP, its body explodes and deals 1d8+6 damage of a random energy type to everything within 20', with a Reflex save for half that is either a flat DC16, or is Charisma-based. This explosion also destroys the Xag-Az's body.

If it comes into contact with either a Xeg-Yi or a Xag-Ya, it is transported to a random location on the Astral plane, while the other creature is sent to a random location on a random plane. Fortunately, those creatures tend to flee from a Xag-Az if possible.

Finally, you have a few PLAs, each at ML15: At-Will Detect Psionics, and 3/day Dismiss Ectoplasm and Negate Psionics.

Not a great body type, but four natural weapons gives us at least something to work with.

----------


## danielxcutter

> Here's the big thing to consider about the 3.0 psionic attack/defense modes: They only existed to give the DM the option to hose psionic PCs with their appropriate monsters if they felt like it. Like just cutting them is the most honest conversion given how little most of the classes interacted with them. Psionic combat was a poorly thought out, spiteful mechanic. Its best to just leave it dead.


I would not be surprised at all, considering what I've heard about the Astral Construct nerf, but could you elaborate? I really don't understand 3.0e psionics enough.

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## loky1109

I think ray should be 30 ft range as for other energons.

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## Beni-Kujaku

Incorporeal Outsider is really a great type/subtype combination. Plus you have 4 touch attacks for sneak attacks. The at-will PLA is just cherry on top. I think I would play that with *LA+0*. Maybe even +1 but the poor body shape prevents me from voting that. 

Daniel 3.0 psionics were the ability for a psionic character to lock themselves in a battle of minds with a psionic character. By a standard you choose one of your attack mode the opponent chooses one of their defense modes (without knowing about the other's choice). Using a two-entry table each defense gave a -5 to +4 modifier to Saving Throw against the attack and some "ability damage reduction". If the attacked guy fails their save they take a few ability damage reduced by the chosen defense. If you use it on a non-psionic character they are dazed for a few rounds instead but they get +8 to their save except if the opponent was using Mind Blast (one attack mode mostly reserved for illithidae) in which case they get -4 to their save instead.

----------


## danielxcutter

That does not sound well thought-out at all.

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## Beni-Kujaku

> That does not sound well thought-out at all.


And on top of that, it was almost never worth it, since your DC is set by a flat 1d20+ability score modifier (the specific ability score depends on the chosen attack mode, none of them being Con), which means even against low-Will psionic characters (already there are not a lot), you generally had a lower-than-50% chance that the attack would affect them. And that's not even counting the fact that each attack mode affects a different ability score. If you wanted to lower the opponent's dexterity to 0, you would have to choose the same attack mode 3 to 4 turns in a row, allowing any psionic character to just choose the appropriate defense mode after the first round, making your attacks even more useless. That's easily the worst part of an already pretty ill-designed book, and it's a relief they completely cut it out from EPH. 

To note: Characters with levels in psionic classes could also use attack/defense modes, but they had to pay power points for them. So the 3.0 psion, already one of the most MAD classes in all of d&d, had to expend daily resources to be allowed to be useless. Great. All-around great.

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## meschlum

> That does not sound well thought-out at all.


It's inherited content from earlier editions, with psionic attack / defense modes going all the way back to 1e, though the MAD component comes from 2e. I'm not sure it was ever well thought out.

1e: any character could be psionic (random roll, high mental attributes helped, odds were in the single digit percentiles) but it was rare. If psionic, you got random attack defense modes, a random power (some awesome, some terrible), and random PP. Being psionic meant you could participate in psionic combat, spending PP to attack and defend. Defenders lost PP depending on the attack and defense modes involved. The thing is, because you spent PP to defend, using the more powerful defenses that reduced damage more was sometimes a bad idea - the defense cost more than the damage you'd take! Ultimately, it was a war of attrition, with the higher PP score winning. If you were psionic and out of PP, you lost hit points instead (with saves vs death thrown on), so you died fast. PP recovery was slow, of course. And some monster categories (e.g. Demons) were always psionic - so a psionic character facing half a dozen demons was dead - she might kill the first one or two, but then she'd be out of PP...

2e: psionicist was introduced as a class, with MAD all over the place as using powers required attribute rolls, depending on the power (and results for critical success / failure). Psionicists have a favored discipline which represents the vast majority of their powers and can gain access to other disciplines as they level up - all powers have a discipline, so if you're facing a low level telepath, you know he's not going to use telekinesis. Attack and defense modes are present, but involve saves rather than PP loss. The notion of psionic contact is established - if your attacks succeed, you get access to your target's mind and can do things to them (if you have PP left and are a telepath). Since every psionic entity has attack / defense modes but not all are telepaths, it's necessary to add consequences for being attacked without a defense - hence the saves (which were different depending on whether you were psionic or not).

3.0e: inherited the 2e paradigm and tried to copy it into the 3e paradigm. A few new things are added as well, of course, but the attack / defense modes are essentially ported over (not sure what happened to psionic contact).

3.5e: attack / defense modes are now normal powers. Psionic contact is gone.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> 3.0e: inherited the 2e paradigm and tried to copy it into the 3e paradigm. A few new things are added as well, of course, but the attack / defense modes are essentially ported over (not sure what happened to psionic contact).
> 
> 3.5e: attack / defense modes are now normal powers. Psionic contact is gone.


Psionic contact is referenced here and there as the way every Telepathy psionic power works ("Telepathy: Powers that allow mental contact and control of other sentient creatures"), and is kind of implied to be how all [Mind-affecting] powers work, since there is one power in PH (Control Body) mentioning "Control body doesn't require mental contact with the subject.", but nothing substantial here.

The most important occurence of mental contact in 3.X is the mental contact between psions or between a psion and a Power Stone, allowing the two to share powers known.

----------


## remetagross

The Xag-Az is a good monster. Not too shabby ability modifiers, including a non-ability to dump a low number into. Incorporeality, but not from being undead: that means you still have a reasonable number of HPs and a reasonable Fort save. 5 Outsider HDs are great and party make up for the -4 Int. 4 touch attacks are terrific for SAs, as already mentioned by Beni-Kujaku. Perfect flight speed.

The annoying body shape and the fact you'd need incorporeal equipment of some sort makes me feel this is worth maybe *LA+1*, not much more than that.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

I'm wondering if we are updating Negate Psionics to Dispel Psionics. Both are clearly supposed to be psionic versions of Dispel Magic, but the 3.5 version can be augmented, and reaches an equivalent manifester level of +20 for ML 15, compared to the capped +10 of Negate Psionics. Having the equivalent of Greater Dispel Magic instead of the equivalent of Dispel Magic would probably make me vote for +1 instead, so I'd like to know what we're doing here.

----------


## Temotei

I'll vote *+1* regardless.

----------


## Tzardok

> I'm wondering if we are updating Negate Psionics to Dispel Psionics. Both are clearly supposed to be psionic versions of Dispel Magic, but the 3.5 version can be augmented, and reaches an equivalent manifester level of +20 for ML 15, compared to the capped +10 of Negate Psionics. Having the equivalent of Greater Dispel Magic instead of the equivalent of Dispel Magic would probably make me vote for +1 instead, so I'd like to know what we're doing here.


The manifester level of psi-like abilities in 3.0 is apparantly very often massively inflated because it doesn't actually make a difference. Therefore I think that a conversion into 3.5 would also need to change the ML. In my conversion I used ML 5th.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> Here's the big thing to consider about the 3.0 psionic attack/defense modes: They only existed to give the DM the option to hose psionic PCs with their appropriate monsters if they felt like it. Like just cutting them is the most honest conversion given how little most of the classes interacted with them. Psionic combat was a poorly thought out, spiteful mechanic. Its best to just leave it dead.





> My point was that they're separate from anything 3.5 and that updating them as Psi-like (or as anything else I can think of but PLA is the most intuitive one) would make no sense and lose the original theme and purpose. Better to discard them entirely than arbitrarily modify monsters like that.


I will acknowledge that I don't know much about 3.0 psionics, but attack/defense modes seem like a basic part of the psionic system. The original theme and purpose, aside from possible Gygaxian cruelty, seems to be "This is a psionic monster that fights with its brain". If I'm not wrong about that, it seems like there should be _some_ kind of psi-like ability to replace them.

Aside from the small fact that nothing in 3.5 psionics matches up cleanly to attack/defense modes.





> Daniel 3.0 psionics were the ability for a psionic character to lock themselves in a battle of minds with a psionic character. By a standard you choose one of your attack mode the opponent chooses one of their defense modes (without knowing about the other's choice). Using a two-entry table each defense gave a -5 to +4 modifier to Saving Throw against the attack and some "ability damage reduction". If the attacked guy fails their save they take a few ability damage reduced by the chosen defense. If you use it on a non-psionic character they are dazed for a few rounds instead but they get +8 to their save except if the opponent was using Mind Blast (one attack mode mostly reserved for illithidae) in which case they get -4 to their save instead.





> And on top of that, it was almost never worth it, since your DC is set by a flat 1d20+ability score modifier (the specific ability score depends on the chosen attack mode, none of them being Con), which means even against low-Will psionic characters (already there are not a lot), you generally had a lower-than-50% chance that the attack would affect them. And that's not even counting the fact that each attack mode affects a different ability score. If you wanted to lower the opponent's dexterity to 0, you would have to choose the same attack mode 3 to 4 turns in a row, allowing any psionic character to just choose the appropriate defense mode after the first round, making your attacks even more useless. That's easily the worst part of an already pretty ill-designed book, and it's a relief they completely cut it out from EPH. 
> 
> To note: Characters with levels in psionic classes could also use attack/defense modes, but they had to pay power points for them. So the 3.0 psion, already one of the most MAD classes in all of d&d, had to expend daily resources to be allowed to be useless. Great. All-around great.





> It's inherited content from earlier editions, with psionic attack / defense modes going all the way back to 1e, though the MAD component comes from 2e. I'm not sure it was ever well thought out.
> 
> 1e: any character could be psionic (random roll, high mental attributes helped, odds were in the single digit percentiles) but it was rare. If psionic, you got random attack defense modes, a random power (some awesome, some terrible), and random PP. Being psionic meant you could participate in psionic combat, spending PP to attack and defend. Defenders lost PP depending on the attack and defense modes involved. The thing is, because you spent PP to defend, using the more powerful defenses that reduced damage more was sometimes a bad idea - the defense cost more than the damage you'd take! Ultimately, it was a war of attrition, with the higher PP score winning. If you were psionic and out of PP, you lost hit points instead (with saves vs death thrown on), so you died fast. PP recovery was slow, of course. And some monster categories (e.g. Demons) were always psionic - so a psionic character facing half a dozen demons was dead - she might kill the first one or two, but then she'd be out of PP...
> 
> 2e: psionicist was introduced as a class, with MAD all over the place as using powers required attribute rolls, depending on the power (and results for critical success / failure). Psionicists have a favored discipline which represents the vast majority of their powers and can gain access to other disciplines as they level up - all powers have a discipline, so if you're facing a low level telepath, you know he's not going to use telekinesis. Attack and defense modes are present, but involve saves rather than PP loss. The notion of psionic contact is established - if your attacks succeed, you get access to your target's mind and can do things to them (if you have PP left and are a telepath). Since every psionic entity has attack / defense modes but not all are telepaths, it's necessary to add consequences for being attacked without a defense - hence the saves (which were different depending on whether you were psionic or not).
> 
> 3.0e: inherited the 2e paradigm and tried to copy it into the 3e paradigm. A few new things are added as well, of course, but the attack / defense modes are essentially ported over (not sure what happened to psionic contact).
> 
> 3.5e: attack / defense modes are now normal powers. Psionic contact is gone.


On one hand, if AD&D psionics was tweaked to be less unbalanced and frustrating, it could probably make a decent core mechanic for another RPG. But it wasn't integrated well with D&D's core mechanics, and was also unbalanced and frustrating.



Right, monsters. The four incorporeal touches are pretty good. (Outsiders don't qualify for Rapidstrike, so I guess it doesn't matter whether that counts as two pairs of natural weapons.) The xag-az would make a pretty decent rogue; it has more chances to sneak attack than all but the highest-level dual-wielders, can reposition for optimal flanking without much risk, and has the Charisma to convince people to not freak out about the disembodied energy eyeballs.

The only real downside is that the xag-az is largely incapable of interacting with the physical world. This means no equipment, no lockpicking, and no juggling. Your noncombat abilities are gonna be pretty much nonexistent if you can't secure a reliable source of _mage hand_ or something. Oh yeah, and if you don't pick up _Vow of Poverty_ or something, you're gonna fall behind as your party members accumulate more and more magical toys.

A xag-az with one level of rogue would have four 2d6 sneak touch attacks, compared to a 7th-level human rogue's one ~5d6 attack. The human probably has a better Reflex save and HP, but slightly worse Fort/Will saves. The human also has a bunch of handy secondary abilities, like evasion and uncanny dodge and thumbs...but the xag-az is incorporeal...but the human can use magic items...

I could see arguments for +1 or +2.

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## loky1109

*+1* sounds good for me.

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## Beni-Kujaku

Yeah, +1 may be better

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## Socksy

I definitely wouldn't have thought that was Medium from the art.

I'm really not sure how to rate this one. Probably a *+1* for the same reasons I voted the last monster as a +1.

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## Debatra

Okay guys, can we take the extended attack/defense mode discussion to its own thread please? We're getting a little off-topic.

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## Remuko

> Okay guys, can we take the extended attack/defense mode discussion to its own thread please? We're getting a little off-topic.


im not into that debate but idk if its off topic. its kinda important in how we rate creatures with such things.

Also Im putting my vote for *+0* for the current monster. not a weak +0 by any means but im not feeling it as a +1

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## Debatra

The votes so far, with a week of inactivity.

+0 - Beni-Kujaku, , Remuko
+1 - remetagross, Temotei, loky1109, Socksy

So a +1 here, and next on the docket is the Entomanothrope template. Yes, that's exactly what it sounds like.

----------


## Debatra

Entomanothrope Template

*Acquired or Inherited:* Either
*Applied To:* Any Humanoid or Giant
*Size & Type:* Gain Shapechanger subtype. Size unchanged in normal or Hybrid form, varies in Vermin form.
*Space/Reach:* Normal for size
*Hit Dice:* Add base Vermin to your own, calculate HP with the higher Con mod. If this results in any ability score increases, the extra points can not be put into Int.
*Speed:* Unchanged in normal form, Hybrid uses base creature's land speed, if the base Vermin can fly, use the lower between Base creature's land speed and base Vermin's Fly speed for the Hybrid's Fly speed.
*Ability Scores:* In Normal Form: Int -2, Wis +2 - Net +0, one penalty. In Hybrid form, add physical ability modifiers based on the base Vermin's scores, using the normal rules. (So a Vermin with 14 Str means a +4 to Str in Hybrid form, etc.)
*Armor Class:* +2 Natural Armor in normal form, use the higher of the base creature's new NA or the base Vermin's in Hybrid and Vermin form.
*Skills:* Gain skill points as normal for the amount of Vermin RHD you gain. Maintain racial skill bonuses across forms.
*CR:* By class, modified by Vermin RHD gained.
*WotC LA:* +2 on top of the added RHD.
*Our LA:* +1 on top of the added RHD.

For reference, we gave Lycanthropes +1 across the board. These guys are basically just those, but for were-Vermin instead. You gain terrible RHD, you gain terrible default monster feats, and etc. Unless specified otherwise, use the normal rules for Lycanthropes but replace animals with vermin. Aside from afflicted Entomanothropes not being able to pass their curse on to others, there is no difference between natural and afflicted.

That said, you don't run the risk of becoming the Vermin's alignment, as they are usually mindless and have no particular morals. (Though it could be fun to roleplay as an Entomanothrope who slowly loses all care for the world around him, even if he doesn't go feral or lose himself completely.) Entomanothropes can be of any "monstrous" non-swarm vermin of up to one size category larger than itself, and may also assume a vermin form one size category smaller than the base creature in addition to the full-size form.

Your hybrid form retains any poison or acid attack possessed by the base vermin. Your hybrid form doesn't necessarily have a claw attack, though scorpions are mentioned as having them. Scorpion hybrids also can't cast spells requiring somatic components on top of all hybrids being unable to cast verbally. If your base vermin lacks a bite attack, so does your hybrid form, though it gains whatever Primary natural weapon your base vermin does have.

You have DR 5/silver in hybrid and vermin form, as well as 60' Darkvision and immunity to mind-affecting in all forms. Instead of merely being able to empathize with them as Lycanthropes do, Entomanothropes can flat-out command vermin of their type (of any size) as if they were using a Command Undead spell on a mindless undead. This affects vermin of up to double your HD and lasts an hour.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

Interesting that it only works on monstrous vermin and not giant vermin. It seems to be corroborated by the fact that only werespiders and werescorpions are mentioned. That means there are only eight kinds of monsters this template can be applied to:
Centipede, Scorpion, Spider
Crab, Diving Spider (Stormwrack)
Redspotted Centipede and Abyssal spiders (Dungeon 84)
Toebiter (Web)

Among all of these, only the toebiter is an actual insect, which makes the name of the template completely wrong, but fits ironically well with lycanthrope being used to designate any shapechanging animal-man (the actual term should have been therianthrope, of course).
Also, none of them has the ability to fly, which makes that part of the template superfluous. And the vast majority of them is god-awful, with almost no interesting ability or at least 5 to 10 HD to pay for it. I think the best shapes are the Small Monstrous Crab and the Small Monstrous Spider. The crab gives you Improved Grab on two claws, while the spider gives you the ability to spin webs, which scales with your level, so it's not completely moot, and Weapon Finesse. The ability scores are awful, but the mind-affecting immunity is really great, and the ability to control vermin is good if situational. I think it averages out compared to the better lycanthrope forms. I vote *LA +1*.

----------


## remetagross

Yeah, I guess the main takeaway here is the immunity to mind-affecting effects in all situations. The rest is mostly meh, but for that alone an *LA+1* is deserved.

----------


## danielxcutter

Y'know, these things would be good for making Hollow Knight character expys.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> Y'know, these things would be good for making Hollow Knight character expys.


Nails are one-handed martial weapons dealing 1d8 damage. Needles are one-handed Finesse exotic weapons dealing 1d8 piercing and triple reach. Whatever Gray Mourner has is a two-handed weapon dealing 2d6.

----------


## Remuko

no flying forms legal for the template? if that small list is truly the only list of legal forms this seems butt. i dont think its worth any LA on top of the racial HD you get. *+0* maybe even -0

----------


## Debatra

Well, the article uses a giant wasp as an example for determining the hybrid form's Fly speed; so either it's another case of WotC examples being wrong or it doesn't literally have to be a creature with the word "monstrous" in the name.

"The entomanothrope takes on characteristics of some monstrous vermin (not swarms) no more than one size category larger than the base creature (referred to as the base vermin)."

----------


## Inevitability

Might 'monstrous vermin' be taken to mean 'vermin that are monsters', as opposed to background flies and leeches and stuff? It's weird, but WoTC naming conventions are nothing if not weird.

Anyway, I think +1 is fine in both cases, 1 RHD 1 LA for mind-affecting immunity, some DR, an okayish alternate form, and possibly free Weapon Finesse isn't an awful deal. Maybe say it's +0 for alternate forms with 3+ (or even 2+?) RHD, if we want to get that fine-grained.

----------


## LecternOfJasper

> Anyway, I think +1 is fine in both cases, 1 RHD 1 LA for mind-affecting immunity, some DR, an okayish alternate form, and possibly free Weapon Finesse isn't an awful deal. Maybe say it's +0 for alternate forms with 3+ (or even 2+?) RHD, if we want to get that fine-grained.


I tend to agree, even with the list being limited as suggested in the opening post. Getting all those goodies relatively early on and at mid levels is not bad assuming you're not a caster. Like, sure, the vermin HD isn't particularly useful, but +0 LA seems like it would be too great a deal either way, for the DR and mind-affecting immunity alone, especially on a fighter type.

----------


## Thurbane

> Interesting that it only works on monstrous vermin and not giant vermin. It seems to be corroborated by the fact that only werespiders and werescorpions are mentioned. That means there are only eight kinds of monsters this template can be applied to:
> Centipede, Scorpion, Spider
> Crab, Diving Spider (Stormwrack)
> Redspotted Centipede and Abyssal spiders (Dungeon 84)
> Toebiter (Web)


Well, I think it's safe to say that was obviously not the intent of the author of the article, seeing as in the related article - also written by the template creator - one of the sample creatures is a Humanoid/Giant Wasp. I'd chalk it up to use of the slightly ambiguous term "monstrous vermin", which AFAIK, is not a defined game term.

Also, I'm voting *LA +1*, but could be argued higher.

----------


## loky1109

+1 or +0 for many-HD vermins.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> That said, you don't run the risk of becoming the Vermin's alignment, as they are usually mindless and have no particular morals. (Though it could be fun to roleplay as an Entomanothrope who slowly loses all care for the world around him, even if he doesn't go feral or lose himself completely.)





> Entomanothropes can be of any "monstrous" non-swarm vermin of up to one size category larger than itself, and may also assume a vermin form one size category smaller than the base creature in addition to the full-size form.


I just realized that there's nothing in the lycanthrope template that forbids you from picking, say, a bat swarm as the base animal. I mean, it's a Tiny Animal (Swarm), so you need to be a Small humanoid to pick up the template (or a Tiny humanoid, or a Diminutive giant, or whatever), but it's 100% legal!





> Interesting that it only works on monstrous vermin and not giant vermin. It seems to be corroborated by the fact that only werespiders and werescorpions are mentioned. That means there are only eight kinds of monsters this template can be applied to:
> 
> -snip-


On one hand, that rule is obviously _intended_ to just mean you can't have a wereswarm. On the other hand, that's not what they wrote. So however you look at it, a weregiantbee is as illegal as a wereratswarm is legal.


FWIW, I think we should rate the entomothrope template as if giant bees are legal, and lycanthropes as if rat swarms are illegal. Though I'm absolutely saving that wereswarm idea for some future villainous competition!

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> I just realized that there's nothing in the lycanthrope template that forbids you from picking, say, a bat swarm as the base animal. I mean, it's a Tiny Animal (Swarm), so you need to be a Small humanoid to pick up the template (or a Tiny humanoid, or a Diminutive giant, or whatever), but it's 100% legal!


The thing is, rules-wise, a bat-swarm can't bite you to transmit the lycanthropy, and in-universe, if a swarm of werebats bites you, then you just become a werebat, not a swarm of werebats (or a wereswarm of bats? A were of batswarms?). Even Curse of Lycanthropy (unintentionally) prevents it by putting the lower size limit to Small.





> On one hand, that rule is obviously _intended_ to just mean you can't have a wereswarm. On the other hand, that's not what they wrote. So however you look at it, a weregiantbee is as illegal as a wereratswarm is legal.
> FWIW, I think we should rate the entomothrope template as if giant bees are legal, and lycanthropes as if rat swarms are illegal. Though I'm absolutely saving that wereswarm idea for some future villainous competition!


Honestly, at this point, might as well play a silthilar. Or a Worm that Walks, if you absolutely want to be gross.

Considering any kind of vermin really doesn't change much to my vote, but the Argent Spider makes me tick a bit. Does Blink Dog-like free action Dimension Slide make it worth 1 RHD+2 LA? Probably not, but I'm unsure.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> The thing is, rules-wise, a bat-swarm can't bite you to transmit the lycanthropy, and in-universe, if a swarm of werebats bites you, then you just become a werebat, not a swarm of werebats (or a wereswarm of bats? A were of batswarms?). Even Curse of Lycanthropy (unintentionally) prevents it by putting the lower size limit to Small.


Point #1: Natural lycanthropes don't need to be bitten. RAW, this is the only argument you need. (RAI, you don't really need _any_ argument, they just omitted the obvious.)
Point #2: A werebatswarm can still transform into its hybrid form, which gains a bite attack (and two claw attacks) as per the lycanthrope template's description.
Point #3: What do you think bat swarms are doing when they swarm-attack someone? Tentacle attacks?


Now, saying that you'd just become a werebat if you were bitten by a werebat swarm is a fair point. However, a werebat swarm is a swarm of werebats, not a were(bat swarm). A bat swarm is a _completely_ distinct Animal-type monster from a bat! So saying that someone bitten by a werebatswarm would become a werebat makes as little sense as saying that someone bitten by a werewolf lord (weredirewolf) would become a werewolf, or that someone bitten by a were(brown)bear would become a wereblackbear or werepolarbear.

----------


## Tzardok

I'll vote for +1.

----------


## No brains

Swarm-lycanthropes are silly, but even sillier are were-mobs. A mob of humanoids from cityscape can be bitten by a killer whale to make Ermac, the were Orca. We are many.

RAI, could a mob of humans be bit by a swarm of bats to produce a werebat mobswarm? :Small Tongue:

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

> Swarm-lycanthropes are silly, but even sillier are were-mobs. A mob of humanoids from cityscape can be bitten by a killer whale to make Ermac, the were Orca. We are many.
> 
> RAI, could a mob of humans be bit by a swarm of bats to produce a werebat mobswarm?


I like the way you're thinking, but A. mobs don't have nearly as many members as swarms, so you'd need each human to become something like 50 bats, and B. you forgot to specify "bit by a swarm of werebats".

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## Morphic tide

> RAI, could a mob of humans be bit by a swarm of bats to produce a werebat mobswarm?


RAI, no, because it should not need mentioning that Mobs are not supposed to function as a unitary creature for template acquisition. RAW, _probably_ in the event that Swarm of Bats is a Lycanthrope who's "base animal" is a Bat Swarm. If I were to write up such a thing "clean sheet" to smooth over some of the wonkiness and flesh out some thematic stuff, I'd go with a community of Kobolds who are Were-Vipers. Tiny Vipers get a Swarm in Fiend Folio, while also having an individual creature entry, so the Kobolds can be Were-Vipers while the Mob as a whole is a Were-Swarm.

When they have some forewarning to organize the Mob, the "Base Creature" is their Dragonwrought Totemist/Sorcerer. Which makes those 30 HD into Dragon HD with the all good saves, full BAB, and d12 HP, plus the 5 HD from Viper Swarm. Using Vipers brings 1d6 Con-damage Poison with the DC of 30 HD. Totemist has plenty of choices that carry over to the Mob, while Sorcerer qualifies for Share Soulmeld and can have a Tiny Viper Familiar that "rolls into" the Mob-Swarm, giving ludonarrative resonance to the entire setup so it's less Silly RAW Abuse to carry things over.

----------


## GreatWyrmGold

I just realized that there's a problem with mob were-swarms.



> *Size and Type:* A mob is a Gargantuan creature composed of either forty-eight Small or Medium creatures or twelve Large creatures. The mobs type remains unchanged from the base creature.


And as I'm sure you remember, swarms have the same size as their individual member organisms. A viper swarm is Tiny, but a kobold mob is Gargantuan.


That said, by RAW it's still possible to have a mermaid mob werewhalethat is, a bunch of mermaids who Voltron into a whale. Elephants, rocs, giant snakes/squids/sharks, some dire animals, and dinosaurs are also valid, as are some weird things like sea tigers and bilge eels.

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## Morphic tide

> I just realized that there's a problem with mob were-swarms.
> 
> And as I'm sure you remember, swarms have the same size as their individual member organisms. A viper swarm is Tiny, but a kobold mob is Gargantuan.


The Were-Mob is taking on its Animal Form of a Viper Swarm, not its Hybrid Form, so it takes on the size of the Animal in question. Just like the example Were-Rat becomes a Small Dire Rat. Granted, they'd _probably_ be a "Viper Swarm" without the Swarm subtype, because Lycanthropy keeps the Type unchanged save adding the Shapechanger subtype. With all the rules issues, it really is better to just 'brew up a new template or stat it out as a bespoke creature. Swarm-Shifter is Undead-specific, to boot!

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> I just realized that there's a problem with mob were-swarms.


That's 3.0 wording. Swarms were described as Medium creatures composed of smaller creatures.

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## GreatWyrmGold

> That's 3.0 wording. Swarms were described as Medium creatures composed of smaller creatures.


Ah, so it is! So an ogre were-viper-swarm is weirdly viable. But unfortunately...





> The Were-Mob is taking on its Animal Form of a Viper Swarm, not its Hybrid Form, so it takes on the size of the Animal in question. Just like the example Were-Rat becomes a Small Dire Rat. Granted, they'd _probably_ be a "Viper Swarm" without the Swarm subtype, because Lycanthropy keeps the Type unchanged save adding the Shapechanger subtype. With all the rules issues, it really is better to just 'brew up a new template or stat it out as a bespoke creature. Swarm-Shifter is Undead-specific, to boot!


...a mob is a Gargantuan creature, not a Small or Large one. The mob is Gargantuan, the swarm is Medium, that's three sized apart instead of one.

You have a point about the subtype, though. By the same token, that means that fish lycanthropes don't gain the (aquatic) subtype and can't breathe water. Man, D&D RAW is weird.

----------


## Debatra

+0 - Remuko
+1 - Beni-Kujaku, remetagross, Inevitability, Thurbane, loky1109, Tzardok

Sorry about the delays. I've been a little burnt out lately, but I'm back. Next on the docket is the Euralden Eye.

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## Debatra

Euralden Eye

*Size & Type:* Medium Undead (Psionic)
*Space/Reach:* 5'/5'
*HD:* 9, 15 (Large)
*Speed:* 40', CLimb 20'
*Ability Scores:* Str +2, Dex +4, Con -, Int +2, Wis +6, Cha +6 - Net +20, no penalties
*Natural Armor:* 9
*Natural Weapons:* One Primary Bite (1d8), two Secondary Claws (1d6)
*Skill List:* Climb (+8 racial, Skill Mastery), Concentration, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot (+8 racial)
*Body Shape:* Ball of bones and limbs.
*Speech (Languages):* No
*CR:* 7
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* -0

As skeletal undead, they are immune to cold on top of the normal undead immunities and have the usual DR 5/bludgeoning.

They have a handful of at-will PLAs at ML5. Catfall (50'), Control Light, Detect Psionics, Energy Stun (Sonic), Eradicate Invisibility, Recall Agony.

Their only special ability is Calcifying Cone, a gaze attack that forces living creatures within a 60' cone to make a Charisma-based fortitude save or take 1d6 Con damage as its flesh hardens into bone. Any creature slain by this ability becomes a statue of bone, and is animated (as in an animated object, not a skeletal undead) under the Eye's control within 1d4 rounds. However, this is not an uncapped spawn ability, as a Euralden Eye can only have animated statues of total HD up to its own, with anything beyond this limit being inanimate.

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## Beni-Kujaku

You know what time it is? It's Fuse Arms time!

Anyway, Calcifying cone is interesting but overall pretty slow and getting only your HD of controlled undead animated bone statues won't help you most of the time. At most you'll get a mount. The PLA also pale in comparison to what a warlock should be able to do, although the at-will is good. And melee fighting isn't an option when you're 5 BAB late. These PLAs and stats would be good around ECL 5. With 9 Undead RHD (and no Unholy Toughness, mind you), that's just not enough. I vote *LA-0*.

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## GreatWyrmGold

> Their only special ability is Calcifying Cone, a gaze attack that forces living creatures within a 60' cone to make a Charisma-based fortitude save or take 1d6 Con damage as its flesh hardens into bone. Any creature slain by this ability becomes a statue of bone, and is animated (as in an animated object, not a skeletal undead) under the Eye's control within 1d4 rounds. However, this is not an uncapped spawn ability, as a Euralden Eye can only have animated statues of total HD up to its own, with anything beyond this limit being inanimate.


I'll take something like this over a dozen "if you die to these negative levels you reanimate as a copy of this thing" undead any day.


The gaze attack is an at-will cone of Constitution damage, which seems a good bit better than anything a ninth-level warlock could pull off; I don't think I can call the Euralden Eye a -0. But with that as its only trick of note, I'm not sure I can justify giving it more than +0, especially when thinking about where it goes from here.

----------


## Thurbane

I don't have energy to invest in a detailed breakdown. "New stat block" + psionics gives me a double headache. I'm throwing my vote in with *LA -0*. Too many RHD.

----------


## Debatra

> I'll take something like this over a dozen "if you die to these negative levels you reanimate as a copy of this thing" undead any day.


The flavor text actually mentions that they tend to hoard corpses to make more of themselves, but there don't appear to be any mechanics behind it. Seems we've dodged an asterisk-shaped bullet here.

----------


## loky1109

O vote for *+0*.

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## Beni-Kujaku

It's been about three weeks since there was any activity here. Is there something wrong, Debatra? Should somebody temporarily take the role of chair?

----------


## Debatra

Sorry about that. Life's been nutty, especially this last week. It was definitely worth it in the end though. 

Only three votes, but *-0* takes it 2-1. Up next is the Faze.

----------


## Debatra

Faze

*Size & Type:* Huge Aberration (Extraplanar)
*Space/Reach:* 15'/10
*HD:* 5, 10 (Gargantuan)
*Speed:* Fly 80' (Good)
*Ability Scores:* Str +6, Dex +4, Con +8, Int +10, Wis +2, Cha +6 - Net +36, no penalties
*Natural Armor:* 6
*Natural Weapons:* Six Primary Tentacle Slams (1d8 plus improved grab, 1d6 constrict)
*Skill List:* Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana, Planes), Listen, Spot, Survival
*Body Shape:* "[R]esembles a jellyfish"
*Speech (Languages):* Uncertain. (I mean... Gather Information? That tends to require at least _some_ way to communicate.)
*CR:* 5
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* +2

Improved Grab for Large or smaller creatures, and SR of 16 is actually good for this level even though it doesn't scale. And six natural weapons are always fun to work with.

It has a handful of 3/day Psi-Like Abilities, though nothing amazing. Daze Monsters, Feather Fall, and Shatter.

Finally, it has Mind Drain. This ability needed one more round of editing. For example, there are two consecutive sentences mentioning the saving throw. I really hope that first sentence is just flavor, otherwise the ability actually doubles up on power. Actually, by strict RAW it becomes broken because it's a free action with no listed X/round limit. I believe the intent was for it to be an aura that the Faze can turn on or off as a free action.

Strictly as written, it can deal 1d4 Intelligence drain to all creatures within 50' as often as it likes as a free action, in addition to having a permanent aura that deals 1d4 Intelligence damage (I'm guessing per round?) at the same range. A will save (that appears to be but is not explicitly listed as Charisma-based) can negate the effect. Affected creatures must make a Wisdom check at the same DC to notice their lost Int, which is interesting. Also, this is mind-affecting.

I hate giving an asterisk to the things that make monsters unique, but strictly as written that ability is busted. Remove that first sentence entirely at it goes back to being reasonable. Or do you guys think I'm overreacting a bit here and it's actually okay? (EDIT: We have essentially agreed to just read it reasonably.)

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

How old is that statblock? Were swift actions invented by then? I'm pretty sure the intent is a 1/round.

Edit: so that statblock dates back to 2003 August the 26th just under two months before Miniatures Handbook which first presented swift actions. I suggest we consider the ability as a swift action rather than a free action which is much more faithful to the monster and frame it as a dated rather than a problematic ability.

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## loky1109

> How old is that statblock? Were swift actions invented by then? I'm pretty sure the intent is a 1/round.


It's clear 3.5.

I think Int drain should be 1/round free action. Plus once for everyone who approach.

In this case I'd give it  at least +1. Maybe +2.

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## Beni-Kujaku

> It's clear 3.5.
> 
> I think Int drain should be 1/round free action. Plus once for everyone who approach.
> 
> In this case I'd give it  at least +1. Maybe +2.


It's definitely 3.5. Only before swift actions were introduced.

What I find the most interesting is that it's a Huge grappler with 5RHD. In general Huge creatures always have at least 8 RHD and this one has an additional +4 racial modifier to grapple checks for a total of +18 which is quite enormous even more with so few RHD. +36 to stats is also really good of course. 
You're a jellyfish with sticky tentacles that is described as beautiful that drains intelligence when it's got you grappled or even when you're just too close. What? Isn't that just the alpha version of nihilego?  :Small Big Grin:  
And it's got a psionic theme so going PsyWarrior would fit perfectly. I honestly think this deserves LA+2 which is one of the highest aberration ratings so far (not counting ethergaunts of course).

----------


## Metastachydium

Are we just ignoring the 6 attacks with reach a feat away from dealing 2d6+STR each _for those 5 HD_? The thing's pretty low-STR for its size, but that's quite the attack routine _before_ Improved Grab is factored in.

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## danielxcutter

Can someone explain the image joke for me?

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## Temotei

> Can someone explain the image joke for me?


Card games are often divided into phases (in this case, Magic: The Gathering has Begin Phase, Main Phase 1, Combat Phase, Main Phase 2, and End Phase). Faze sounds like "phase."

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## Beni-Kujaku

> Are we just ignoring the 6 attacks with reach a feat away from dealing 2d6+STR each _for those 5 HD_? The thing's pretty low-STR for its size, but that's quite the attack routine _before_ Improved Grab is factored in.


Oh no, we're absolutely not forgetting about that. It's just that it is a big part of "Huge" and that this monster has so many good things, from mobility to combat effectiveness, that 6 attacks on a hand-less body isn't the most impressive in my opinion.

I really appreciate the will of the author to provide astral travellers with one half-safe place that they can use to settle before going on adventures. The Elserryn cluster and Crosswinds Keep plays a pretty similar role to that of the Rock of Bral in the Spelljammer setting, in that it's a plothook in the form of a location. The Astral lacked such a thing, and mostly only had dangerous locations.

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## Debatra

So we're thinking I was maybe a little overzealous in my evaluation of Mind Drain then?

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## Beni-Kujaku

> So we're thinking I was maybe a little overzealous in my evaluation of Mind Drain then?


I personnally think that we'd better not asterisk away one of the most interesting abilities of the monster especially when there is a simple real-life explanation in mistaking free and swift actions since swift actions were released immediately after. 

What do you think Temotei danielxcutter Metastachydium? How would you rate the Faze and what LA would you give it?

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## Metastachydium

Oh. Yeah. Right. That. I'll agree that your +2 is entirely warranted and I could be convinced to go higher yet. (Where's Remuko when I need a conservative estimate?)

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## Thurbane

Interesting one here. Ugh, so many psionic monsters online. Still, not all that psionic-y in flavour.

Huge Aberration (extraplanar) with 10 ft reach (disappointing it isn't innately 15).5 RHD (d8 hp, medium BAB, good Will save, and 2 skill points/"level").Fly 80 ft (good).+6 natural AC.6 tentacle slams (1d8).Constrict, improved grab: huge size and +6 Str should make you a respectable grappler.Mind drain: ranged 1d4 Int drain, Will save to avoid.Psionics: 3/day Daze Monster, Feather Fall, and Shatter. Not terrible, but not all that powerful.Darkvision 60 ft.SR 16: relevant at your starting level, but will fall away as you level.Str +6, Dex +4, Con +8, Int +10, Wis +2, Cha +6: net +36, no penalties!Smallish racial skill list, especially when you figure in that Int bonus. The list is a little underwhelming, but not totally useless.
Non-humanoid body type. A generous DM might let you use body-slots similar to a Grell. No language or ability to speak mentioned.

Huge size for 5 HD is already a pretty good deal. Flight as a high rate and good maneuverability is also pretty sweet. And those ability mods! Throw in 6 natural attacks, and innate grappling options. It's other special abilities are nice, but not amazing - although Mind Drain could be pretty effective at shutting down low Int/low will save enemies. [edit] Just realized this is a free, or maybe swift, action. That's pretty darn good. [/edit]

Progression? Martial adept could be good for these guys. Or with that Int modifier and 6 attacks, maybe Skillmonkey sneak-attacker?

I'm totally going to use these as a DM, or maybe in a VC in the future. Huge creatures for 5 HD/CR5 aren't all that common.

I'll agree with *+2*.

I picture them as looking vaguely like the Ocularon:

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## Tzardok

> Interesting one here. Ugh, so many psionic monsters online. Still, not all that psionic-y in flavour.


It's also not psionic in crunch. This is more like the aboleth in the SRD; it can use a few spells and slaps the label "psionics" on that to change the fluff a bit.

By the way, I wonder what a creature that naturally floats and lives in a plane that's mostly empty needs _feather fall_ for.

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## Lapak

> By the way, I wonder what a creature that naturally floats and lives in a plane that's mostly empty needs _feather fall_ for.


I read that as less 'it needs it' and more 'it is capable of imposing that aspect of its natural environment on the world around it as necessary.'

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## Remuko

> Oh. Yeah. Right. That. I'll agree that your +2 is entirely warranted and I could be convinced to go higher yet. (Where's Remuko when I need a conservative estimate?)


id been reading other peoples thoughts because im having trouble deciding how I feel about this thing. its very weird. i think ppl are making good points about how often this things abilities can actually be used. that will affect what its worth quite a bit.

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## Temotei

It's tough, but *LA +2* sounds reasonable for now.

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## loky1109

I'm on *+2* stance now, too.

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## goodpeople25

> It's also not psionic in crunch. This is more like the aboleth in the SRD; it can use a few spells and slaps the label "psionics" on that to change the fluff a bit.
> 
> By the way, I wonder what a creature that naturally floats and lives in a plane that's mostly empty needs _feather fall_ for.


Technically I don't think it has a mechanical floating ability, it has a fly speed with good maneuverability that can generally represent floating. Feather fall's lowered fall speed (feather fall being seen as the spell "fall damage immunity" is kind of a pet peeve of mine) can further emulate aspects of floating in the gray area of the rules that comes from this kind of simulated rules.   

And after looking up fall speeds and the astral plane I found that feather fall has another use on subjective directional gravity planes like the Astral, you should be able to use it offensively to prevent your prey from utilizing the full fall speed that anyone can use to pseudo fly in the Astral.

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## danielxcutter

Arent there ways to drop someones flying speed?

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## Metastachydium

> Arent there ways to drop someones flying speed?


Dunno. But there sure are lots of ways to disable a creature's flight (e.g. Undeniable GravityMH, WingbindDrac or the Weighty UtteranceDrM invocation).

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## Beni-Kujaku

> Arent there ways to drop someones flying speed?


The thing is movement in the Astral is not flying and would not be affected by things reducing speed. Capping the falling speed to 60ft with an immediate action is actually quite good.

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## danielxcutter

So yeah, not _pointless_.

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## Beni-Kujaku

Can we move on to the Feverclaw?

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## Debatra

Yeah, sorry about that. *+2* for this, Feverclaw is up next.

----------


## Debatra

Feverclaw

*Size & Type:* Large Outsider (Evil)
*Space/Reach:* 5' by 10'/5'
*HD:* 14, 22 (Huge), 36 (Gargantuan)
*Speed:* 60'
*Ability Scores:* Str +10, Dex +16, Con +8, Int -4, Wis +4, Cha +0 - Net +34, one penalty
*Natural Armor:* 5
*Natural Weapons:* Four Primary Claws (1d6 plus poison), One Primary Gore (1d10), one Secondary Probuscis (1d4 plus 1d4 Cha Drain)
*Skill List:* Balance, Hide (+8 racial), Jump, Listen, Move Silently (+8 racial), Spot, Tumble
*Body Shape:* Bald, Six-Legged Tiger
*Speech (Languages):* No (Understands Abyssal, Infernal, and Common "to a limited extent")
*CR:* 14
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* +0

This thing is something to behold, so I'm actually going to start off with its description:

_A feverclaw measures about 14 feet in length and weighs nearly 1,400 pounds. The beast looks vaguely like a bald, six-legged tiger, with shiny black skin that resembles flexible obsidian. It has no neck to speak of. Two pairs of taloned arms rise out of the center of its shoulders just behind its trowel-shaped head. Six dead-black insectoid eyes form a "V" shape atop its head, and a long blood-red horn curves up from its snout. Its mouth, a writhing mess of tiny hooked grasping tendrils, lies on the underside of the head. When it attacks, a long, red, prehensile feeding proboscis tipped with a hollow bone lancet extends on a dripping fleshy stalk. The feverclaw radiates a cloying, stinking heat when in motion; the bitter stench of this heat is unmistakable to those who have been lucky enough to survive an attack by one of these creatures.

The feverclaw seems somewhat intelligent, but uses all of its intelligence to taunt and torment its prey. The creature feeds on the emotions of its victim. One may think that, given its method of attack, fear would be its favorite flavor. But hope is the sweetest nectar to the feverclaw: It delights in taunting and toying with its prey, repeatedly releasing it and then pouncing again just as the victim is about to reach safety, quickly siphoning out the hope through its feeding proboscis with noisy relish._

That out of the way, we're starting off with immunity to mind-affecting, fire, poison, paralysis, slow, sleep, and any temporal effects. ...Time Stop is listed as an example here, so I'm guessing that worked differently in 3.0? Because in 3.5 it's a misnomer because it actually makes the caster speed up to the point where everything else just _seems_ frozen. What is there even to be immune to? Does it get to act during another creature's _Time Stop_ spell?

Anyway, we also have SR 26 (non-scaling, but still good at this level), DR 30/+3 (which would probably be best converted into 15/magic and good - for comparison the Yuan-Ti Anathema also had that particular conversion, and Feverclaws are neutral on the Law-Chaos axis so neither Silver nor Cold Iron are obvious), and a constant Blur effect. Its Alacrity ability gives it an extra "partial action" (3.0-speak for Standard actions) each round and an untyped +4 to AC while not flat-footed. It can Pounce, and has Improved Grab for anything smaller than itself, automatically hitting the victim with its probuscis on a successful grab. It can Freeze In Place, holding perfectly still for a full round to gain a +10 circumstance bonus on Hide checks.

The poison from its claws deals initial damage of 1d6 Wisdom damage, and is particularly fast-acting. The secondary damage of 1d6 "permanent Constitution damage" (Did 3.0 have Drain as a seperate thing from damage? Because that looks like Drain.) occurs only a single round later. Keep in mind it has four of those things per round, and can Pounce. The Fortitude save appears to be Con-based.

A creature struck by a Feverclaw's probuscis must make a(n apparently) Charisma-based Fortitude save or take 1d4 Charisma drain, which is doubled on a critical hit. The Feverclaw heals five HP when it drains a creature (ten on a crit), and gains the excess as temporary HP. It can also empathetically communicate with a creature it is feeding upon.

So... Up to this point, we've been mostly silent on whether or not you keep the default creature's feats. But either way, you may want to keep Spring Attack given what a Feverclaw can do with it. If a Feverclaw Spring Attacks, it can attempt to Hide at a -20 penalty while finishing its movement (as if sniping), even while being observed. It can use this to hit-and-run, or even to drag off a creature it has Improved Grabbed without ever alerting the victim's companions. I kind of wish that were a general rule. It sounds neat.

----------


## Tzardok

> That out of the way, we're starting off with immunity to mind-affecting, fire, poison, paralysis, slow, sleep, and any temporal effects. ...Time Stop is listed as an example here, so I'm guessing that worked differently in 3.0? Because in 3.5 it's a misnomer because it actually makes the caster speed up to the point where everything else just _seems_ frozen. What is there even to be immune to? Does it get to act during another creature's _Time Stop_ spell?


Propably. I've seen something similiar once in a creature in the Pathfinder SRD. The Time Dimensional has immunity to time based effects, which includes a sentence on how it can act normally during another one's time stop. (I also _made_ something similiar in my hombrew thread; the transitional has a 50% chance of acting normally during other people's time stop.)




> (Did 3.0 have Drain as a seperate thing from damage? Because that looks like Drain.)


I think that's just a mistake. IIRC a relatively common mistake in some monster descriptions is calling drain "permanent damage".

----------


## danielxcutter

I know one of the Abominations can move during a Time Stop. The incorporeal one.

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> I know one of the Abominations can move during a Time Stop. The incorporeal one.


Yeah, but that's because it has Spell Stowaway (Time Stop). It copies any Time Stop cast within 300ft. Here, the feverclaw doesn't seem to have any limit to its ability. I assume creatures like that with link to time (like the Dragon Magazine time dragon) always move at the fastest time rate in the plane. Interestingly, that makes them nigh-invincible in an universe with lots of high-level casters where a time stop is cast every minute or so. But also quite disturbing. Good thing it can communicate telepathically with its prey, or a typical conversation with it would sound like 
-And now you shall know pain, as I'll plunge my proboscis deep in your [//] pineapples that fell on my head some time ago which made me batsh...[//]...ow of the year, nay, of the century! No one would miss you losing your [//] keys that I left inside my car and HE DIDN'T EVEN [//] ask you to go on a date, seriously, you're such a good listener and I love [//] cutting your throat and injecting you with some of the deadliest poison the Nine Hells have ever [//] cooked with granny... Are you even listening? It feels like you've been spacing out? I'll write you an exam at the end of [//] the WORLD! Time is moving aga... [//]inst us! We have to get out of here ! Take your friends with me and we'll [//] jump into the lava to kill him! You got all of that? Let's go!

----------


## Frostmoon

> Propably. I've seen something similiar once in a creature in the Pathfinder SRD. The Time Dimensional has immunity to time based effects, which includes a sentence on how it can act normally during another one's time stop. (I also _made_ something similiar in my hombrew thread; the transitional has a 50% chance of acting normally during other people's time stop.)





> I know one of the Abominations can move during a Time Stop. The incorporeal one.


Adding on to this: one of the D&D video games (I believe it was _Baldur's Gate: Black Pits 2_, so 2e) had immunity to Time Stop equaling the ability to move through the spell, no matter who casts it. So, we've got precedent here on what Time Stop immunity actually looks like.

Also, since this thing is somewhat cat-like, would it count for cat feats? :3

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

Anyway, I want to like everything here. Alacrity, Pounce, nice ability scores, Outsider type (making the -4 Int almost irrelevant), a great poison that can be applied to any kind of claw (Totemist is an easy progression, maybe with a rogue dip?), immune to mind-affecting, and good SR and DR. However, no manipulator barring Gloves of Man, no reach, lowish natural armor and -4 Int make me think that it is barely enough for 14 RHD. The real problem is how many things are immune to poison at this level (between 1/3 and 1/2 of monsters above CR 14). If it had 12 or 13 RHD, I'd have said LA+0 without a second thought. With 14, I think *LA-0* is more appropriate.

----------


## loky1109

I say *+0 LA* for this kitty.

----------


## Metastachydium

> (Evil)
> 
> ()
> 
> It delights in taunting and toying with its prey, repeatedly releasing it and then pouncing again just as the victim is about to reach safety, quickly siphoning out the hope


Yup. That jerk's a cat alright.




> Anyway, I want to like everything here. Alacrity, Pounce, nice ability scores, Outsider type (making the -4 Int almost irrelevant), a great poison that can be applied to any kind of claw (Totemist is an easy progression, maybe with a rogue dip?), immune to mind-affecting, and good SR and DR. However, no manipulator barring Gloves of Man, no reach, lowish natural armor and -4 Int make me think that it is barely enough for 14 RHD. The real problem is how many things are immune to poison at this level (between 1/3 and 1/2 of monsters above CR 14). If it had 12 or 13 RHD, I'd have said LA+0 without a second thought. With 14, I think [B]LA-0[B] is more appropriate.


With Pounce, that DEX score and _especially_ Alacrity this one just invites a comparison to whirlpounce barbarian  and it handily pulls ahead. Even with Gloves of Man, it still has two extra attacks from the remaining claws plus one (or something else entirely, like the chance to activate one of those pesky standard action command magic items) from Alacrity. NA is low, but it also has a +4 _untyped_ armour bonus that applies to touch. It has all good saves plus a blanket immunity to mind-affecting. A barbarian needs an INT score of 14+ to match its skill points/level, and the skill list is not half bad. With that many RHD it will never be anything other than a beatstick, but it outbeatsticks quite some beatsticks with ease. The poison? It's a ribbon alright, but using it costs nothing (it is carried by what this ugly does _anyway_) and if it works

I'll go with a tentative *+0*, but +1 doesn't seem outlandish.

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## Frostmoon

Also: immunity to Timestop, while circumstantial, is _exceptionally_ useful. Enemy lich uses the spell? Congrats, this beatstick can go and attack it. An _ally_ uses the spell? Congrats, now you've got TWO TEAM MEMBERS who can actually act during it!

I'll vote a conservative *+0* here. :3

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## Beni-Kujaku

> Also: immunity to Timestop, while circumstantial, is _exceptionally_ useful. Enemy lich uses the spell? Congrats, this beatstick can go and attack it. An _ally_ uses the spell? Congrats, now you've got TWO TEAM MEMBERS who can actually act during it!
> 
> I'll vote a conservative *+0* here. :3


Being able to act with an opponent is great. Being able to act with an ally is a bit disappointing. The Feverclaw is a beatstick first, and basically, only. It won't be able to deal any damage to its target during the Time Stop, and has no innate ability that use its actions to buff itself. Now, you could of course stock up on items for such an eventuality, but that's a bit too circumstancial to be optimal expenses.

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## Debatra

I mean, if you have an ally that can Time Stop, you may as well at least grab a few extra potions.

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## InvisibleBison

> However, no manipulator barring Gloves of Man


I don't think this is correct. Even if you rule that the feverclaw's arms can't be used to manipulate things (and I don't know why you'd do that), its proboscis is explicitly described as prehensile. Maybe it can't wield a weapon, but it can certainly manipulate things.

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## Frostmoon

> Being able to act with an opponent is great. Being able to act with an ally is a bit disappointing. The Feverclaw is a beatstick first, and basically, only. It won't be able to deal any damage to its target during the Time Stop, and has no innate ability that use its actions to buff itself. Now, you could of course stock up on items for such an eventuality, but that's a bit too circumstancial to be optimal expenses.


Ah, I see why our interpretations were different. Pathfinder's Time Dimensional replicates the effects of Time Stop on itself when some one else casts it; the Time Stop immunity I mentioned lets the immune creature act as if Time Stop didn't exist -- as in, it can still take whatever actions it wants, completely unimpeded by the rules of spell. Thus, attacks, debuffs, and the like are all doable.

So, this once again seems to circle back to what Time Stop immunity even means.

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## danielxcutter

In 3.5e, it appears to generally be capable of attacking the Time Stopped caster. Which I'd say is pretty good once you start fighting things that can use it, I guess.

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## Beni-Kujaku

> I don't think this is correct. Even if you rule that the feverclaw's arms can't be used to manipulate things (and I don't know why you'd do that), its proboscis is explicitly described as prehensile. Maybe it can't wield a weapon, but it can certainly manipulate things.


Considering it's described as similar to a six-legged tiger and has 4 claws, I'd guess the four mentioned "arms" are just its forelegs. If they are similar to human arms, then the Feverclaw is much much better. I didn't notice the proboscis was described as "prehensile". If it's the same meaning as Prehensile Tail, then you might even hold a weapon with this thing. Great!




> Ah, I see why our interpretations were different.


Ooooh, yeah. I really don't think that would work like that, considering the reason you can't affect creatures is because they are in a different time stream than you, but it would be ridiculous. Honestly, the most reasonable way to rule all of this is to give it Spell Stowaway (Time Stop). That's how the ELH does it, and it avoids all the balancing and weirdness of having all Time Stops cast everywhere affecting you specifically.

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## InvisibleBison

> Considering it's described as similar to a six-legged tiger and has 4 claws, I'd guess the four mentioned "arms" are just its forelegs. If they are similar to human arms, then the Feverclaw is much much better. I didn't notice the proboscis was described as "prehensile". If it's the same meaning as Prehensile Tail, then you might even hold a weapon with this thing. Great!


I can see why you'd interpret the description that way, but I don't think it holds up to a close reading of the description. For one thing, it seems odd for the limbs to be called legs in one sentence and arms in the next. For another, the arms are described as "ris[ing] out of the center of its shoulders just behind its trowel-shaped head". If the arms are meant to be its forelegs, this really doesn't make sense. The shoulders would have to be its rear legs', but that would mean all six of its legs are attached at the front of its body. I really do think the feverclaw is meant to have ten limbs.

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## ixrisor

> I didn't notice the proboscis was described as "prehensile". If it's the same meaning as Prehensile Tail, then you might even hold a weapon with this thing. Great!


A prehensile tongue should be able to hold a weapon, but Im not sure it could effectively wield it. Its definitely able to manipulate objects though.

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## Tzardok

> Ooooh, yeah. I really don't think that would work like that, considering the reason you can't affect creatures is because they are in a different time stream than you, but it would be ridiculous. Honestly, the most reasonable way to rule all of this is to give it Spell Stowaway (Time Stop). That's how the ELH does it, and it avoids all the balancing and weirdness of having all Time Stops cast everywhere affecting you specifically.


Maybe it just speeds up itself whenever someone in its vicinity uses Time Stop. That's certainly how I would rule it, that it synchronizes itself with the time streams of those close or something like that.

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## Bavarian itP

I wonder if there will be a monster I feel qualified to rate soon  :Small Tongue:

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## Thurbane

There's a lot going on with this weird cat.

I'll give it a tentative *LA +0*. It gets a lot of good stuff for a beatstick, but 14HD is a lot to deal with.

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## Beni-Kujaku

> I wonder if there will be a monster I feel qualified to rate soon


Don't worry the next one is just a big boar who can burrow through sand and secretes poison on its... Four mouth at the end of four trunks? Okay so not a boar at all. Still a pretty straightforward monster.

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## Debatra

Seems like a good *+0*. Next up is the Fiery Sandhog.

Happy New Year.

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## Debatra

Fiery Sandhog

*Size & Type:* Medium Aberration
*Space/Reach:* 5'/5'
*HD:* 4, 9 (Large)
*Speed:* 40', Climb 20', Burrow 20' (Sand and Loose Soil only)
*Ability Scores:* Str +4, Dex +2, Con +2, Int -4, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +4, one penalty
*Natural Armor:* 6
*Natural Weapons:* Four Primary Bites (1d4 plus poison), two Secondary Claws (1d6)
*Skill List:* Climb, Hide, Jump, Spot
*Body Shape:* Multi-elephant-trunk/mouthed boar
*Speech (Languages):* "No" (generally understands Common, can communicate with each other "with a complex series of grunts and squeals")
*CR:* 4
*WotC LA:* -
*Our LA:* __

First thing's first, the joke image _does not_ do this thing justice.

_The fiery sandhog looks only superficially like a large, bald razorback hog. A spiny row of crystalline spikes runs down its back and bristles on its shoulders. Its powerful legs end in large, clawed flippers that can propel it through sand and loose earth with surprising speed. Its vaguely boarlike head splits at the snout into four long trunks, each of which ends in a fanged maw. A pair of beady, feral red eyes glares from its face, belying its underlying intelligence and cunning._

...Maybe I'll start including the descriptive text regularly instead of just when I find it particularly interesting.

Fiery Sandhogs are immune to fire. Its crystalline spikes can be used to collect and focus heat from the sun into a 70' Heat Ray, dealing 2d6 fire damage on a ranged touch attack. Despite mentioning the sun, there is no mentioned daily limit or need for actual access to sunlight.

The poison of its four fanged trunks is of course Con-based, dealing 1d4 Str damage for both initial and secondary effects.

Finally, it can exert limited control of sand, loose dirt, or gravel within 140', in a 20' radius. It can make such material flow like water to a depth of up to three feet for a brief moment. Any Large or smaller creature caught in the flow has to make a (presumably Con-based) reflex save to avoid being trapped, unable to move and taking a -2 circumstance penalty to Dexterity until they get out. Doing that requires either a Strength or Escape Artist check as a full-round action, the DC being 21, with no mention of any scaling.

---

Ladies and gentlemen, the internet has destroyed the word "loose" for me. I look at it, and despite the fact that _I_ wrote that and I know full-well it's correct; I just reflexively think that somebody misspelled "lose" when I see that word now.  :Small Mad:

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## Tzardok

Bizzare stuff. I'm not sure, does anybody think this is worth more than +0?

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## Thurbane

Yeah, another weird one, not especially suited for use as a PC IMHO.

4 RHD (d8 hp, medium BAB, good Will save 2 skill points/"level").40 ft speed, 20 ft burrow, 20 ft climb: decent movement options.+6 natural AC.4 bites 1d5 (plus poison 1d6 Str), 2 claws 1d6.Heat Ray: at will 2d6 fire supernatural ray attack, 70 feet. Better than no ranged options, but unless you are adding precision damage or similar, nothing to write home about.Control Sand: an area effect tripping/entangling type effect, very terrain dependent.Darkvision 60 ft.Fire Immunity: with no vulnerability to cold. Nice.Str +4, Dex +2, Con +2, Int -2: net +4. Personally, I hate taking a hit to Int. I like skills.Small list of racial skills, movement and stealth based.
Slightly weird quadrupedal body. May not be able to speak normally. No hands. None of those things bode well for ease of use as a PC.

I think this is borderline -0 for me, but I guess the number of attacks and poison could get it to +0. No more than that. Can't ever see myself wanting to play one of these. You can get to large with 5 more HD, but who would want 5 Aberration HD when they could have 5 class levels?

I'm voting *LA +0*.

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## loky1109

I see here some option for good use even with 4 bad HDs.
I give it *+0 LA*.




> Bizzare stuff. I'm not sure, does anybody think this is worth more than +0?


I did, but finally decide it's too much.

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## Beni-Kujaku

The ability scores are bad, as is the body shape, but the movement options are good, and 4 attacks with 1d4 Str poison is absolutely nothing to sneeze at. I could see a Thayan Gladiator. I vote *LA+0*

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## danielxcutter

Oh, and Aberration HD mean access to the Rapidstrike line down the road.

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