# Forum > Play-by-Post Games > Finding Players (Recruitment) > GM Needed Epic Pathfinder Game

## MagneticDragon

So, Ive been recently playing around with Epic Level games in 3.5 edition. Both Seeking High Level DM and The Abomination Concord (and I need to make a post in the former, my apologies for the delay), and Ive found it to be rather fun and engaging. Especially when the Epic Tome of Battle content is allowed, to really flesh out what is and isnt available in terms of Epic Content. 

However, I genuinely find myself preferring Pathfinder to 3.5. Even without considering its significant 3PP support (Though the Homebrew found on this website is delightful), Pathfinders various classes such as the Alchemist, Investigator, Kineticist and Vigilante, grab my attention and interest more than the majority of 3.5s classes. The problem, however, is that Pathfinder never created Epic Material similarly to 3.5 did. Or at least, 3.0 which was then updated, if poorly or at all. Pathfinder has Mythic of course, but that seems even more of a mess than Epic is if Im entirely honest. So, unfortunately, it seems that Epic Pathfinder will have to rely on Epic 3.5 Content...

... Unless, of course. You use Jesses DND Epic Pathfinder

Now, this is not perfect. As it only has content for Core & Base classes. Jesse refused to implement Hybrid classes, as they saw that as power creep, nor have they updated it since the Occult Classes came out. But it _is_, in a way, Homebrew. And their document is designed to be flexible so that other classes can make their own Epic Feats and Class features, similar to what Jesse provides in her suggestions. Not to mention between all the different feats. General, Combat, Magic, Metamagic, and more. There is plenty for everyone, even if you do not have feats specifically for you, such as the Epic Alchemy Feats or the Epic Rage Feats. 

Hence my request: Im looking for a Dungeon Master who is willing to play an Epic Pathfinder game using Jesses Epic Pathfinder material as its base, and is potentially open for discussion of the creation of Epic Material for classes that dont yet have their own progression or feats. And thats it.

Spheres is most likely best taken off the menu, thanks to how radical of a change would be necessary for it to function in Epic levels. But Path of War and Psionics, as well as Legendary Games material _could_ viably be allowed without too much difficulty. Especially as Psionics and Path of War both have their own Epic Material in 3.5 to draw upon for inspiration, with Legendary Games just being changes to the classes and extra feats. Akashic Magic is very much broken, so I highly suggest we avoid it like the plague. But, any 3PP material, while enjoyed, is not at all necessary for this Epic Pathfinder game. 

I look forwards to seeing what game might be created from this.

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## Aleph Null

> So, Ive been recently playing around with Epic Level games in 3.5 edition. Both Seeking High Level DM and The Abomination Concord (and I need to make a post in the former, my apologies for the delay), and Ive found it to be rather fun and engaging. Especially when the Epic Tome of Battle content is allowed, to really flesh out what is and isnt available in terms of Epic Content. 
> 
> However, I genuinely find myself preferring Pathfinder to 3.5. Even without considering its significant 3PP support (Though the Homebrew found on this website is delightful), Pathfinders various classes such as the Alchemist, Investigator, Kineticist and Vigilante, grab my attention and interest more than the majority of 3.5s classes. The problem, however, is that Pathfinder never created Epic Material similarly to 3.5 did. Or at least, 3.0 which was then updated, if poorly or at all. Pathfinder has Mythic of course, but that seems even more of a mess than Epic is if Im entirely honest. So, unfortunately, it seems that Epic Pathfinder will have to rely on Epic 3.5 Content...
> 
> ... Unless, of course. You use Jesses DND Epic Pathfinder
> 
> Now, this is not perfect. As it only has content for Core & Base classes. Jesse refused to implement Hybrid classes, as they saw that as power creep, nor have they updated it since the Occult Classes came out. But it _is_, in a way, Homebrew. And their document is designed to be flexible so that other classes can make their own Epic Feats and Class features, similar to what Jesse provides in her suggestions. Not to mention between all the different feats. General, Combat, Magic, Metamagic, and more. There is plenty for everyone, even if you do not have feats specifically for you, such as the Epic Alchemy Feats or the Epic Rage Feats. 
> 
> Hence my request: Im looking for a Dungeon Master who is willing to play an Epic Pathfinder game using Jesses Epic Pathfinder material as its base, and is potentially open for discussion of the creation of Epic Material for classes that dont yet have their own progression or feats. And thats it.
> ...


I never knew about this, huh. 
Tentative interest as player pending a 16. Note that I enjoy doing wacky nonstandard-character nonsense in epic games, so I would want flexible character creation rules for that purpose. Of course, the levels of nonstandard-wacky-nonsensical can be tuned to the GM, so if the GM is uncomfortable with WAY-OUT-THERE stuff I can be flexible to a degree

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## Armonia13

Always interested in playing a Pathfinder game, especially an Epic one! Adding to the summoning circle.

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## watupwithdat

Didn't even know someone had made epic rules for PF.

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## redfeline

I like using those epic rules, I'd be done to try and be a player.

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## JollyChris

interested as a player pending 16.

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## Darius Vibrtrar

I have some experience using Jesse's rules with an epic kineticist. I'm interested as a player

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## MagneticDragon

> I have some experience using Jesse's rules with an epic kineticist. I'm interested as a player


Huh, truly? Did you make an Epic Progression for the game? Any Epic Feats perhaps? I am quite curious.

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## Darius Vibrtrar

Yea, we came up with an epic progression for Kineticist, and a secondary Elemental challenge to attune to the elements, Adjusted the Channel weapon enchantment to add +1 elemental damage per Kinetic blast die, of the element being used after a Charge energy action. Theres alot we did. Was a Ogre Kineticist that used Void/Water/Earth and completely abused being able to use Reverse Gravity in any direction.

Epic Kineticist:
21- Infusion, Internal Buffer 4 
22- Utility Wild Talent 
23- Expanded element, Elemental Defense 
24- Utility Wild Talent 
25- Infusion, Metakinetic Master 
26- Internal Buffer 5, Utility Wild Talent 
27- Infusion 
28- Utility Wild Talent 
29- Infusion 
30- Utility Wild Talent, Hyper Charge 
31- Expanded element

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## samduke

interested as a player pending big 16

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## Marcarius5555

> So, Ive been recently playing around with Epic Level games in 3.5 edition. Both Seeking High Level DM and The Abomination Concord (and I need to make a post in the former, my apologies for the delay), and Ive found it to be rather fun and engaging. Especially when the Epic Tome of Battle content is allowed, to really flesh out what is and isnt available in terms of Epic Content. 
> 
> However, I genuinely find myself preferring Pathfinder to 3.5. Even without considering its significant 3PP support (Though the Homebrew found on this website is delightful), Pathfinders various classes such as the Alchemist, Investigator, Kineticist and Vigilante, grab my attention and interest more than the majority of 3.5s classes. The problem, however, is that Pathfinder never created Epic Material similarly to 3.5 did. Or at least, 3.0 which was then updated, if poorly or at all. Pathfinder has Mythic of course, but that seems even more of a mess than Epic is if Im entirely honest. So, unfortunately, it seems that Epic Pathfinder will have to rely on Epic 3.5 Content...
> 
> ... Unless, of course. You use Jesses DND Epic Pathfinder
> 
> Now, this is not perfect. As it only has content for Core & Base classes. Jesse refused to implement Hybrid classes, as they saw that as power creep, nor have they updated it since the Occult Classes came out. But it _is_, in a way, Homebrew. And their document is designed to be flexible so that other classes can make their own Epic Feats and Class features, similar to what Jesse provides in her suggestions. Not to mention between all the different feats. General, Combat, Magic, Metamagic, and more. There is plenty for everyone, even if you do not have feats specifically for you, such as the Epic Alchemy Feats or the Epic Rage Feats. 
> 
> Hence my request: Im looking for a Dungeon Master who is willing to play an Epic Pathfinder game using Jesses Epic Pathfinder material as its base, and is potentially open for discussion of the creation of Epic Material for classes that dont yet have their own progression or feats. And thats it.
> ...


You're running this? Could use a full 16 so we can get started building.

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## watupwithdat

> You're running this? Could use a full 16 so we can get started building.


No. If you read the quoted post you will find this:




> Hence my request: Im looking for a Dungeon Master

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## Marcarius5555

> No. If you read the quoted post you will find this:


My bad, but oof, that's going to be hard to find anyone to run something like this. 

Super interested as a player. Love to make a high level assassin.

I did a mythic game a couple of years ago as a live game -- but it only worked because we had 3 people splitting DM duties (we all collaborated on and rotated telling the story, and we all also had characters) -- 1 only made stat blocks and did encounter design stuff, and that took them like at least 6-8 hours a week because they were using lots of Legendary Games stuff to customize things to make it work well -- they had a Herolab full subscription/package and downloaded a lot of stuff into it to marginally speed up the process; I made all the maps, minis, and audio visuals stuff (again, that took me like 8 hours a week, I couldn't have done that and the other stuff unless I was getting paid for it -- I painted like 100 devils for a big encounter with 3d printed terrain and got a hand cramp to where someone else had to move them for the session! I also did a lot of 3d animated backgrounds and sound effects for things), and another sub DM did all the recruitment, scheduling, build rules, house rule adjudications and stuff -- which ended up being like a 20 page document by the time we got done. 

Was a pretty fun time, but a ton of work for like a 20 session expedition (some of the sessions were literally like 9am-5pm stuff on the weekends) to fight Tiamat in the 1st level of Hell. The basic plot was that some of her servitors -- several great wyrm, advanced, mythic polychromatic dragons (like a blue/red dragon) got together and stole the soul of a silver dragon sorcerer queen who was a patron of the PCs -- Tiamat wanted to corrupt her soul to create a new breed of pink chromatic dragons to serve as generals of an army of kobolds to conquer a neighboring prime material world. The dragon council of the metallic dragons and the high priest of Bahamut helped get the expedition together and gave the pcs an astral submarine dug up from an ancient magical super civilization (sort of like Atlantis) to travel to Hell in -- there was a big Githyanki raid orchestrated by Tiamat with warlocks riding on dracoliches on the way there too. Then, we had to fight across the first level of hell to get to Tiamat's lair, which was an enormous dungeon (I mapped out a truly gargantuan complex that had like 1,000+ rooms on twelve levels, and the other sub DM made up encounters for about 100-120 rooms, I forget exactly. Some of it was wiggle room for more stuff; the parts of it we 3d printed took up 2 full-sized dining room tables and we had almost 300 minis on it at one point. The Tiamat 'mini' was like a foot high, it was ridiculous. Some of the rooms were like a mile wide so the colossal monsters could move around. The whole thing was easily the size of a small city). 

Mostly it was a slug fest, but we had some truly amazing encounters like a mythic, hasted, advanced 24 headed hydra that dished out like 1,200+ damage a round that was the watchdog to the bridge over a 10 mile deep lava gorge that was the back door to Tiamat's lair. The 'mini' for the hydra was a custom 3d printed thing that was like 14 inches long and the whole set up involved bringing in an extra table (we basically took over a basement for 3 months while we played this game). The mountains and bridge were all 3d printed and I made a glow in the dark lava lamp kind of thing for the gorge. We turned out most of the lights and played Night on Bald Mountain. The light from the gorge illuminated the table -- it was crazy. The hydra had a paralytic contact poison on its teeth and bit 2 characters that it then threw them into the lava. A couple of the other characters had to use a combination of familiars/pets and several wishes to retrieve their bodies and resurrect them to keep going. 

Some of those people moved, and I doubt I'd try to be on the DM end of it again (in fact, thinking about it again now, I'm sure I wouldn't lol), but it sure was fun. I had a high level Slayer/Assassin who killed like 50 advanced half-ogre half dragon barbarians single handedly in one encounter. 

Only the Oracle survived (with like 20hp) -- the 7 other mythic characters all had their souls eaten by Tiamat. There was also a small army of cohort and hirelings that all bit the dust too -- Tiamat fought alongside her five polychromatic, mythic, advanced great wyrm  'children' and a horde of other monsters like half dragon medusa and gorgons. The PCs were outnumbered like 10-1 in Tiamat's lair. The Green/Black dragon wyrm daughter of Tiamat literally ate the wizard's familiar then vomited her back up as an undead the pcs had to kill (don't ask me the mechanics, I wasn't in charge of that part, but it was one of the simultaneously grossest and most awesome scenes of the whole debacle). 

The Oracle established a shrine to their memory which figured in a later campaign as a place the inexperienced PCs trained at or visited.

I might suggest trying something like the splitting up of GM duties we did in that game -- I'm still only interested in playing, but that might make someone more likely to volunteer to do one part of the immense task of putting together a game like this -- I mean, the OP is talking about potentially vetting whole new class progressions. That's super cool and also super a lot of work on top of all the other stuff. I feel like if we did that for the game I described above, we would have added yet another sub DM to do all the homebrewing work (we used 3rd party stuff for monsters but the PCs weren't making up another 10 levels of progression for some classes). Just thinking out loud for ideas for prewritten stuff that could be used -- I don't know how easy/hard it'd be to adapt something like the _Spires of Xin-Shalast_ to this idea -- certainly you'd have to change almost all the stats, but I'm not sure if you just, for example, doubled everything that would do the trick, or it'd be more challenging. I saw another thread where stat blocks for monsters were generated for a high level game. Maybe that'd be a good idea for this project too, or at least see if some of the raw work could be outsourced on some level?

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## Aleph Null

> My bad, but oof, that's going to be hard to find anyone to run something like this. 
> 
> Super interested as a player. Love to make a high level assassin.
> 
> I did a mythic game a couple of years ago as a live game -- but it only worked because we had 3 people splitting DM duties (we all collaborated on and rotated telling the story, and we all also had characters) -- 1 only made stat blocks and did encounter design stuff, and that took them like at least 6-8 hours a week because they were using lots of Legendary Games stuff to customize things to make it work well -- they had a Herolab full subscription/package and downloaded a lot of stuff into it to marginally speed up the process; I made all the maps, minis, and audio visuals stuff (again, that took me like 8 hours a week, I couldn't have done that and the other stuff unless I was getting paid for it -- I painted like 100 devils for a big encounter with 3d printed terrain and got a hand cramp to where someone else had to move them for the session! I also did a lot of 3d animated backgrounds and sound effects for things), and another sub DM did all the recruitment, scheduling, build rules, house rule adjudications and stuff -- which ended up being like a 20 page document by the time we got done. 
> 
> Was a pretty fun time, but a ton of work for like a 20 session expedition (some of the sessions were literally like 9am-5pm stuff on the weekends) to fight Tiamat in the 1st level of Hell. The basic plot was that some of her servitors -- several great wyrm, advanced, mythic polychromatic dragons (like a blue/red dragon) got together and stole the soul of a silver dragon sorcerer queen who was a patron of the PCs -- Tiamat wanted to corrupt her soul to create a new breed of pink chromatic dragons to serve as generals of an army of kobolds to conquer a neighboring prime material world. The dragon council of the metallic dragons and the high priest of Bahamut helped get the expedition together and gave the pcs an astral submarine dug up from an ancient magical super civilization (sort of like Atlantis) to travel to Hell in -- there was a big Githyanki raid orchestrated by Tiamat with warlocks riding on dracoliches on the way there too. Then, we had to fight across the first level of hell to get to Tiamat's lair, which was an enormous dungeon (I mapped out a truly gargantuan complex that had like 1,000+ rooms on twelve levels, and the other sub DM made up encounters for about 100-120 rooms, I forget exactly. Some of it was wiggle room for more stuff; the parts of it we 3d printed took up 2 full-sized dining room tables and we had almost 300 minis on it at one point. The Tiamat 'mini' was like a foot high, it was ridiculous. Some of the rooms were like a mile wide so the colossal monsters could move around. The whole thing was easily the size of a small city). 
> 
> Mostly it was a slug fest, but we had some truly amazing encounters like a mythic, hasted, advanced 24 headed hydra that dished out like 1,200+ damage a round that was the watchdog to the bridge over a 10 mile deep lava gorge that was the back door to Tiamat's lair. The 'mini' for the hydra was a custom 3d printed thing that was like 14 inches long and the whole set up involved bringing in an extra table (we basically took over a basement for 3 months while we played this game). The mountains and bridge were all 3d printed and I made a glow in the dark lava lamp kind of thing for the gorge. We turned out most of the lights and played Night on Bald Mountain. The light from the gorge illuminated the table -- it was crazy. The hydra had a paralytic contact poison on its teeth and bit 2 characters that it then threw them into the lava. A couple of the other characters had to use a combination of familiars/pets and several wishes to retrieve their bodies and resurrect them to keep going. 
> ...


I will posit that I'd be willing to do (or at least help out with) the nitty-gritty / mechanical sub-DM work if I can still also be a player, just to take off some of the overhead.

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## Marcarius5555

> I will posit that I'd be willing to do (or at least help out with) the nitty-gritty / mechanical sub-DM work if I can still also be a player, just to take off some of the overhead.


The stat blocks were one of the big things that was really hard -- the sub/co DM that did all that literally had 1,000+ pages of stat blocks for this game. She custom designed a version of Tiamat where each head was 12 heads -- like the red dragon head was 12 different red dragons on one 'stalk', and it was the same for each of the other colors -- so Tiamat had 5 necks with 60 sub necks/heads -- the stat block was like 12 single spaced pages of crazy stuff (and yes, Tiamat killed a lot of characters and hirelings -- like she'd kill someone, we'd resurrect them, then she'd kill them again the next round -- I think it had like 3,000 or so hp, it was absolutely bananas). She told me it was hours of just clicking buttons on HeroLab and cutting and pasting stuff into files -- and making Tiamat and her children took like 2 entire nights of work to put together. She also did an amazing job custom designing all this stuff so the monster's all had special powers that were crafted to interact with the PCs -- it definitely went waaay beyond taking some of the premade NPCs in the _Gamemaster Guide_ and adding a couple of abilities. Like my assassin/slayer had all these poison abilities, but some of the monsters had the ability to suck up the poison and spit it back out in a new form, or do other weird things with it. The assassin was himself immune to it, but one monster, I think it was some kind of highly customized protean, spit one of his poisons back out on a hireling squire character and turned them into a plague zombie thing. 

She was also playing the oracle who was the only character that survived, and I'm not going to lie, we all thought that was kind of suspect, like she'd designed the monsters to kill everyone else -- my assassin got killed by one of Tiamat's sons in like the third round of the final combat (and then got resurrected and killed 3 more times, and then was totally dead and I spent the rest of the combat participating with my hirelings), but the rest of the thing was so amazing that we just accepted it -- and certainly no one else was going to do all that anyway.

I'll just lurk then and see if a DM shows up -- there's some third party stuff I want to request if anyone's willing to run this.

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## AvatarVecna

Tentative interest as player.

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## Starmage21

> The stat blocks were one of the big things that was really hard -- the sub/co DM that did all that literally had 1,000+ pages of stat blocks for this game. She custom designed a version of Tiamat where each head was 12 heads -- like the red dragon head was 12 different red dragons on one 'stalk', and it was the same for each of the other colors -- so Tiamat had 5 necks with 60 sub necks/heads -- the stat block was like 12 single spaced pages of crazy stuff (and yes, Tiamat killed a lot of characters and hirelings -- like she'd kill someone, we'd resurrect them, then she'd kill them again the next round -- I think it had like 3,000 or so hp, it was absolutely bananas). She told me it was hours of just clicking buttons on HeroLab and cutting and pasting stuff into files -- and making Tiamat and her children took like 2 entire nights of work to put together. She also did an amazing job custom designing all this stuff so the monster's all had special powers that were crafted to interact with the PCs -- it definitely went waaay beyond taking some of the premade NPCs in the _Gamemaster Guide_ and adding a couple of abilities. Like my assassin/slayer had all these poison abilities, but some of the monsters had the ability to suck up the poison and spit it back out in a new form, or do other weird things with it. The assassin was himself immune to it, but one monster, I think it was some kind of highly customized protean, spit one of his poisons back out on a hireling squire character and turned them into a plague zombie thing. 
> 
> She was also playing the oracle who was the only character that survived, and I'm not going to lie, we all thought that was kind of suspect, like she'd designed the monsters to kill everyone else -- my assassin got killed by one of Tiamat's sons in like the third round of the final combat (and then got resurrected and killed 3 more times, and then was totally dead and I spent the rest of the combat participating with my hirelings), but the rest of the thing was so amazing that we just accepted it -- and certainly no one else was going to do all that anyway.
> 
> I'll just lurk then and see if a DM shows up -- there's some third party stuff I want to request if anyone's willing to run this.


High level 3.x is rocket tag, Pathfinder is not excepted from this. Epic level is just rocket tag infinity but when you die, Resurrection is basically free because 25K in diamonds is chump change or you have a way to avoid it period. Death is just being removed from the fight. Its not necessarily the end of that character anymore.

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## Marcarius5555

> High level 3.x is rocket tag, Pathfinder is not excepted from this. Epic level is just rocket tag infinity but when you die, Resurrection is basically free because 25K in diamonds is chump change or you have a way to avoid it period. Death is just being removed from the fight. Its not necessarily the end of that character anymore.


I wasn't in charge of the mechanics for the monsters but there was stuff going on like they were locking characters in pocket dimensions with time loops and anti magic effects -- some of it was weird 3pp. spells I'd never even heard of -- part of that intense design process. I think my co-DM spent months looking up all kinds of super specialized feats and spells for some of these encounters. I know she got a lot out of some of the late 3.5 stuff Monte Cook did and some Rite Publishing spell collections.

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## Zarthrax

Definitely interested as a player.

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## Yas392

Tentative interest.

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## Thunder999

In the unlikely even this finds a GM I'm interested, always like some high level PF and I've seen that homebrew epic book a few times.

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## Marcarius5555

> In the unlikely even this finds a GM I'm interested, always like some high level PF and I've seen that homebrew epic book a few times.


If anyone wants to run this I can point out resources -- Herolab allows you to do a whole lot for making stat blocks, it's just expensive, and you have to buy a lot of the modules individually. I've never had it, I've just known other DMs for this kind of stuff who found it invaluable for speeding up some parts of NPC creation (again, as long as you're willing to buy all the modules that you'd need for this). 

One suggestion -- I guess you could just handwave stuff and be sort of loosey goosey on build rules to save time -- like not even write down a stat block but just give something the same AC as the pcs, or their AC +10 -- or just say it hits for 100 damage or whatever would seem significant instead of figuring out exactly what to roll. I guess it depends who volunteers and what the tolerance for the potential players is for playing fast and loose with that kind of stuff. That would certainly hugely speed up parts of the process if the DM just sort of guestimated all that stuff.

It might also help to just have a mindless dungeon crawl instead of trying to come up with some crazy plot -- I'd really be okay with that as long as I can use some stuff I want to use and I don't have to participate in running it in any way.

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## MagneticDragon

For those who have missed it. We _do_ have an Epic Pathfinder game!

Nexus the City of Legends fo your viewing pleasure.

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