# Forum > Gaming > Gaming (Other) >  What Are you Playing 7: Deadly Sims

## Mark Hall

New thread, same as the old thread.

And, like the top of the sixth thread five and a half months ago, I'm playing Wrath of the Righteous. Still. I'm really making a go of finishing it, i swear, but they DO hate people without touch spells in this game, don't they?

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## The Glyphstone

I noted that very quickly in my playthrough so far. They also hate people who don't have Displacement effects on them, between the sky high ACs and ludicrous attack boni. I do wish I could figure out how aggro works - having frontline tanks is useless when they can't even block corridors to keep the casters safe.

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## Cygnia

Hubby is playing Chicken Police right now.  I'm trying to finish up Talos Principle before I try it.

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## halfeye

Mainly go on KGS, I have also been playing some spider solitaire just before bed, that tends to go badly for my bedtime.

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## zlefin

There's so much (well justified) salt on the path of exile forums; it's quite dramatic.  I'm kind of enjoying reading it just for the drama.


I played monsters den: godfall for awhile; it's nice.  I'd say not quite as good as monsters den: chronicles, but still pretty good.  The core gameplay is very similar.  It has a lot of additions and some new content, but as a 'game' the balance and some design choices make it slightly less fun I think.  For instance, due to the way setting your party works, it's not generally worth it to identify what the dungeon is like and then send a party that'll be good for that environment.  Instead I mostly just set one party and get through everything with that.  You don't start with the slots to level multiple parties at start, so by the time you can afford more, you'd have to level them up quite a bit for them to be useful.

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## Rynjin

> There's so much (well justified) salt on the path of exile forums; it's quite dramatic.  I'm kind of enjoying reading it just for the drama.


What's the salt about? I was considering trying to play that again this season.

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## Anteros

> New thread, same as the old thread.
> 
> And, like the top of the sixth thread five and a half months ago, I'm playing Wrath of the Righteous. Still. I'm really making a go of finishing it, i swear, but they DO hate people without touch spells in this game, don't they?


I'm doing OK without them in my current core difficulty run, but I am playing pretty optimized. At least as far as I'm able within my own abilities and not looking up guides.  It's not hard to be rocking 40+ to hit and ac in early chapter 3 even with something simple like a base paladin.  I did level Woljif as a vivisectionist instead of rogue though. Being able to put self buffs on party members is completely broken.




> I noted that very quickly in my playthrough so far. They also hate people who don't have Displacement effects on them, between the sky high ACs and ludicrous attack boni. I do wish I could figure out how aggro works - having frontline tanks is useless when they can't even block corridors to keep the casters safe.


My experience is that there's no such thing as aggro for ranged attacks but melee will tend to attack whatever is closest.  I tend to play harder battles in turn based mode though so I have a bit more control.

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## NRSASD

> Hubby is playing Chicken Police right now.  I'm trying to finish up Talos Principle before I try it.


Ooooo enjoy the Talos Principle! Its a good time and a lot of fun.

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## MCerberus

When I get home I'm going to download Saints- *looks at reviews*
Immortal Empires it is. Dwarf time. THEY HAVE WRONGED US

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## Anonymouswizard

On Saints Row 2, started the second Brotherhood mission, and died five times. The game just has enemies approach from pretty much every angle, and health regeneration takes much longer to kick in than the later games. It's a shame, because I really like the game, but some of the early missions can be unbearable.

I do see why SR3 toned down the seriousness, the Boss has no real sense of restraint in this game. But at the same time the more grounded gangs and selfish main character make it compelling. Plus the clothing is much better done, even if I'm currently just wearing a tube top to show off my character's tattoos.

...okay, the Deckers and Morningstar would probably have worked in a serious plot, the latter takes the place of Ultron as the people pulling the strings behind these other gangs, and the Deckers become cybercrime specialists you have to draw out into the open. It's just the Luchadores who are a bit silly.

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## Cygnia

> Ooooo enjoy the Talos Principle! Its a good time and a lot of fun.


I've only a few of the red sigils (and 2 stars) left to get -- unfortunately, the puzzles they're behind have those bloody proximity mines that I just can't seem to move fast enough to maneuver around them in time (yes, I'm using the shift button to sprint and no, none of these are puzzles I can parkour my way into solving).

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## NRSASD

> I've only a few of the red sigils (and 2 stars) left to get -- unfortunately, the puzzles they're behind have those bloody proximity mines that I just can't seem to move fast enough to maneuver around them in time (yes, I'm using the shift button to sprint and no, none of these are puzzles I can parkour my way into solving).


Have you figured out the fun interactions with boxes and proximity mines?
*Spoiler: Spoilerific Secret Mine Technique*
Show

You can place the box on top the mine and ride it!

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## MCerberus

*tries to download Immortal Empires patch*
steam is down
*WRONGED US*

well I did get in and it is beautiful

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## Cygnia

That, I was able to figure out (eventually).  But, alas, for these particular puzzles, that trick is no-go

*Spoiler: Puzzles left*
Show


Egyptian Arcade
Whole Lotta Jammin'
Higher Ground

These three have me showin' my age in terms of reaction time.  Even when I use jammers where they're supposed to be used, I just can't seem to sprint fast enough to avoid the damn mines!

Seven Doors of Recording 
Criss-Cross Conundrum Advanced

These 2 involves recording me -- I'm just damn lazy and was hoping to solve those earlier puzzles first. 

(and one more on either C6 or C7, plus the star in Seven Doors)

Technically, I've the tower and all the white sigils save one to solve as well -- and the 30th star.



LOVED being able to parkour my way into solving Labrynith though.

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## zlefin

> What's the salt about? I was considering trying to play that again this season.


There's a number of things.  The biggest being that they reduced item drops to a fifth or something of what they were before; and didn't put it in the patch notes; only mentioning it later when the community noticed drops were horribly horribly off.

Some lesser bugs, like crashing bugs, a few temporarily broken subsystems; in and of themselves not too bad, but it compounds the annoyance.  These at least are getting fixed in the hotfixes fairly well; but you only got one first impression, and it really annoyed a lot of people.

They made archnemesis stuff standard for all rares, in all the different subsystems like delve, incursion, etc;  it's possible to get several archnemesis mods on one rare foe at higher levels.  They've been toning it back somewhat, but not nearly as much as they should have based on the complaints I've seen.  Complaints like:  some taking 10+ minutes to kill;  some being tougher than Sirus/other end game foes.  Some instakilling you from a screen away even with full health and heavy defense spec.  Some regenerating faster than you could possibly hurt them.  Many of them giving barely anything for how tough they are.

Much harder to maintain maps, especially with any kind of boosts to the map.  Numerous top streamers noting they don't get much running 6 man teams with maximally juiced maps and tons of MF.  Many streamers simply stopped because it wasn't worth it or they were losing resources with each run, or not gaining enoguh to make it worthwhile. 

Poor communication by GGG that only partly responds to complaints, and doesn't really address the obvious problem that people pointed to.  Insensitivity; like a post that barely acknowledges the complaints with some weak glaringly inadequate fixes and ends with an ad for some of their mtx or somesuch.  The lead of the game seems to be doubling down on the things people are most annoyed by.

The main mechanic of the new league having almost no drops most of the time.  Most say it's simply not worth doing until very very late mapping stage.

Some people are also upset over a major change to the economy; something about divine orbs and exalted orbs switching purposes or something, that massively decreased the value of the stuff some people had collected in their standard accounts.

Harvest gutted to the point where it often drops nothing at all; and it may take several sets of plants to get a single craft.  Some other harvest changes as well I think that removed some options people liked.

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## Drasius

> There's a number of things.  The biggest being that they reduced item drops to a fifth or something of what they were before; and didn't put it in the patch notes; only mentioning it later when the community noticed drops were horribly horribly off.
> 
> Some lesser bugs, like crashing bugs, a few temporarily broken subsystems; in and of themselves not too bad, but it compounds the annoyance.  These at least are getting fixed in the hotfixes fairly well; but you only got one first impression, and it really annoyed a lot of people.
> 
> They made archnemesis stuff standard for all rares, in all the different subsystems like delve, incursion, etc;  it's possible to get several archnemesis mods on one rare foe at higher levels.  They've been toning it back somewhat, but not nearly as much as they should have based on the complaints I've seen.  Complaints like:  some taking 10+ minutes to kill;  some being tougher than Sirus/other end game foes.  Some instakilling you from a screen away even with full health and heavy defense spec.  Some regenerating faster than you could possibly hurt them.  Many of them giving barely anything for how tough they are.
> 
> Much harder to maintain maps, especially with any kind of boosts to the map.  Numerous top streamers noting they don't get much running 6 man teams with maximally juiced maps and tons of MF.  Many streamers simply stopped because it wasn't worth it or they were losing resources with each run, or not gaining enoguh to make it worthwhile. 
> 
> Poor communication by GGG that only partly responds to complaints, and doesn't really address the obvious problem that people pointed to.  Insensitivity; like a post that barely acknowledges the complaints with some weak glaringly inadequate fixes and ends with an ad for some of their mtx or somesuch.  The lead of the game seems to be doubling down on the things people are most annoyed by.
> ...


Pretty good summary.

It amuses me that the streamers and ZoomZoom players are now finding out what it's like to play PoE as a casual for the last 10 leagues or so, and it turns out they don't like it.

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## Rynjin

Ah.

Bad time to give it a try then, I take it.

Well, there's always PoE 2?

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## Anteros

I don't play POE anymore so I've got no dog in the race, but in general when devs cave to whining by the vocal parts of the community it almost always makes the end product much worse.  Lower drop rates aren't necessarily a bad thing, at least for the parts of the community that enjoy things about the game besides the endgame grind.  When things are harder to get, it makes it more special when you do get it.  

Dunno, I could be completely wrong, but just because the community is whining doesn't automatically make something bad.  I've seen too many communities go through this and absolutely ruin the games in question when the devs finally caved.

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## Rynjin

Maybe projecting an experience that isn't relevant here, but low drop rates were a big part of why Diablo 3 sucked ass on launch, so I typically assume if that specifically is being complained about it's legit. The low drop rates there didn't make drops feel special, it just made the game feel hella grindier and unfun.

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## Anteros

> Maybe projecting an experience that isn't relevant here, but low drop rates were a big part of why Diablo 3 sucked ass on launch, so I typically assume if that specifically is being complained about it's legit. The low drop rates there didn't make drops feel special, it just made the game feel hella grindier and unfun.


Well, I played Diablo 3 several years after release, but none of the drops in it ever felt special regardless.  

I'm probably not the target audience for these games though.  I typically play the campaign and maybe a tiny bit of post-game and then never touch them again.  I'm definitely not the player that's running the same post-game maps thousands of times to farm stuff, so I'm not nearly as affected by these types of changes.

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## Cazero

So, you can't play Immortal Empires in singleplayer *at all* without also buying TWarhammer 1 and 2, but in multiplayer it only restricts your LL selection to TWarhammer 3 and free DLCs?

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## WritersBlock

Decided to try out Terraria. Got lucky with a weapon drop (legendary tentacle spike weapon with 22 base damage) early. And this is definitely a game where inventory management puzzles are a thing.

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## factotum

> I do see why SR3 toned down the seriousness, the Boss has no real sense of restraint in this game. But at the same time the more grounded gangs and selfish main character make it compelling. Plus the clothing is much better done, even if I'm currently just wearing a tube top to show off my character's tattoos.


SR2 always struck me as having a bit of a split personality. On the one hand you had a game where there were side missions where you had to spray poop on houses to lower property values or run naked through the city scaring as many people as possible, and on the other one of the main missions has you put the gang boss's girlfriend in the boot of a car which he then unknowingly runs over with a monster truck, the implication being she gets crushed to death. It was like that one mission in GTA: San Andreas where you had to drown the manager of a rapper so your friend could get further in his music career--I never liked having to do that because the ends most definitely did not justify the means.

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## Zombimode

> So, you can't play Immortal Empires in singleplayer *at all* without also buying TWarhammer 1 and 2, but in multiplayer it only restricts your LL selection to TWarhammer 3 and free DLCs?


Yes. That is not a surprise, isn't it?


I'm still on *Elex 2* which means I still have some time on deciding which faction to pick first for Immortal Empires.
I was going with Belegar, but considering the sorry state of K8P making that race does not seem worthwhile atm.
Instead I'm leaning into Reikland. In the current state of Immortal Empires, the Empire seems to be threatned by multiple enemies, from the outside and from within. Usualy leading to the Empires destruction with no player involvement. This seem to be a good time for a "save the Empire" style campaign :-)

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## GloatingSwine

> So, you can't play Immortal Empires in singleplayer *at all* without also buying TWarhammer 1 and 2, but in multiplayer it only restricts your LL selection to TWarhammer 3 and free DLCs?


Yeah. Mortal/Immortal Empires was always the combined campaign for owning all of the games. The big change for 3 is that in a multiplayer game only the host needs to own the previous games.

I'm going to wait for Bretonnia now until they get a little more attention, since they've been left with the slowest cav in the game now which is just morally wrong. I've started a playthrough as Drycha, it's going pretty much as expected but it's not quite as easy to manage diplomacy as it used to be because you get less friend points for beating up Vlad than you used to for Mannfred. Zhufbar hate me because I sold some settlements to Stirland, who they are at war with for no sane reason.

Will either do Katarin or Ku'gath next I reckon.

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## Rynjin

It's a little annoying they didn't figure out some way to patch that material into 3 because between 1, 2, and 3 you're looking at like 200 gigs lol.

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## GloatingSwine

> It's a little annoying they didn't figure out some way to patch that material into 3 because between 1, 2, and 3 you're looking at like 200 gigs lol.


It is in 3?

You don't need 1 or 2 installed, you just need to own them all on the same store.  In fact the IE patch made Warhammer 3 about 20GB _smaller_ (and improved performance a good bit, but not up to Three Kingdoms/Troy level).

Like that's how Mortal Empires worked as well, you didn't need 1 installed for that.

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## Rynjin

Ah, I assumed the reason you needed 1 and 2 for 3 was the same as needing 1 for Mortal Empires in 2 and you had to have both installed. 

Edit: Apparently I'm completely misremembering needing to have 1 installed for 2. Not sure why I was so sure about that.

How do they check that you own both other games? If you're multiplatform (eg you own 1/2 on Steam and 3 via Game Pass) are you SOL or do they have some kind of account signup and verification I'm forgetting about?

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## Drasius

> Ah.
> 
> Bad time to give it a try then, I take it.


If you're new, you won't really be missing anything since you have no baseline for what it used to be, and if we're honest, your first league you're going to be learning how to play, making a bunch of mistakes, figuring out how everything works and won't be getting any good drops anyway. If your goal is to simply finish the campaign, you can do that in maybe 10-20 hours with terrible gear and no idea on how to play. If your goal is to see most of the story or even just some of the endgame bosses, it'll likely take you quite a while, probably in the hundreds of hours as a minimum.




> Well, there's always PoE 2?


Not really? PoE2 is basically the same game, but with a different campaign (the campaign is effectively the tutorial). It's also highly speculated that everything that they're doing now to PoE 1 is to prep the playerbase for the massive slowdown that PoE2 is going to be. Needless to say, this has also copped a significant amount of flak from the playerbase.




> I don't play POE anymore so I've got no dog in the race, but in general when devs cave to whining by the vocal parts of the community it almost always makes the end product much worse.  Lower drop rates aren't necessarily a bad thing, at least for the parts of the community that enjoy things about the game besides the endgame grind.  When things are harder to get, it makes it more special when you do get it.  
> 
> Dunno, I could be completely wrong, but just because the community is whining doesn't automatically make something bad.  I've seen too many communities go through this and absolutely ruin the games in question when the devs finally caved.


Loot was cut by *roughly* 90% virtually across the board, with only Heist, Expedition and to a lesser extent, Delve and Blight seemingly unaffected. I like to level criticism over entitled players whining about PoE as much or more than the next person, but in this case, it's probably at least a little justified. Now, don't get me wrong, they've been showering us with stuff for *years* with obscene drop rate multipliers for league content, and it should certainly have been looked at, but making significant reductions in player power, significant increases to monster power *and* only handing out ~10% of the lot you were all at the same time is not the way to get the community on board with your ideas/vision for the game.

They just (like, 2 hours ago at time of posting) released a statement about walking back some of the changes, but they did so in exactly the way the community predicted and in doing so, have managed to make most people even more upset.

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## Zombimode

> How do they check that you own both other games? If you're multiplatform (eg you own 1/2 on Steam and 3 via Game Pass) are you SOL or do they have some kind of account signup and verification I'm forgetting about?


Simple. Multiplattform is not supported.

But that has been the case for Mortal Empires as well, so no suprise there, really.

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## zlefin

> I don't play POE anymore so I've got no dog in the race, but in general when devs cave to whining by the vocal parts of the community it almost always makes the end product much worse.  Lower drop rates aren't necessarily a bad thing, at least for the parts of the community that enjoy things about the game besides the endgame grind.  When things are harder to get, it makes it more special when you do get it.  
> 
> Dunno, I could be completely wrong, but just because the community is whining doesn't automatically make something bad.  I've seen too many communities go through this and absolutely ruin the games in question when the devs finally caved.


while that's true in general; this is not one of those times.  This time the devs really did screw up big; it's also part of a pattern of mistakes the devs have been making for some time now.

Part of the problem with the lower drop rates is also that they didn't mention them in the patch notes; despite it being a massive change.  It's the kind of thing that should really be front and center and highly visible in patch changes given how huge it was.  It was also far too extreme in some cases (and possibly bugged in some cases).  There's also all the other things listed.


I'd definitely wait a couple weeks at least to if things settle into a better state with patches and fixes before trying to play.

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## Anonymouswizard

> SR2 always struck me as having a bit of a split personality. On the one hand you had a game where there were side missions where you had to spray poop on houses to lower property values or run naked through the city scaring as many people as possible, and on the other one of the main missions has you put the gang boss's girlfriend in the boot of a car which he then unknowingly runs over with a monster truck, the implication being she gets crushed to death. It was like that one mission in GTA: San Andreas where you had to drown the manager of a rapper so your friend could get further in his music career--I never liked having to do that because the ends most definitely did not justify the means.


Oh yeah, the Boss is nowhere near a good person in SR2, she's become exactly what Julius didn't want the Saints turning into. The characteristion in that mission pretty much remains for the entire game, the Boss is not a good person and,as I said, has no restraint.

And yeah, the activities are a massive sidestep into wackyland, but even there it's more grounded. I find that activities like Fuzz work better than ones like Septic Avenger, it's entirely possible to get a run of more grounded crimes.

I thi k the assessment of 'you're playing a Batman villain in a world without Batman' is, really the most fitting. The Boss needs an enemy that can actually take them out of the game for a while, and while the other gang leaders could do it they feel no motivation to until the Boss has too much momentum.

Then in 3 they mellow out a bit and become a character you can theoretically root for, rather than just one that's fun to watch.

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## GloatingSwine

> Oh yeah, the Boss is nowhere near a good person in SR2, she's become exactly what Julius didn't want the Saints turning into. The characteristion in that mission pretty much remains for the entire game, the Boss is not a good person and,as I said, has no restraint.
> 
> And yeah, the activities are a massive sidestep into wackyland, but even there it's more grounded. I find that activities like Fuzz work better than ones like Septic Avenger, it's entirely possible to get a run of more grounded crimes.
> 
> I thi k the assessment of 'you're playing a Batman villain in a world without Batman' is, really the most fitting. The Boss needs an enemy that can actually take them out of the game for a while, and while the other gang leaders could do it they feel no motivation to until the Boss has too much momentum.
> 
> Then in 3 they mellow out a bit and become a character you can theoretically root for, rather than just one that's fun to watch.


Yeah, that's why Julius blew you up at the end of Saints Row 1. I find the best characterisation comes from playing SR2 by doing Sons of Samedi, then Ronin, then Brotherhood. That gives you a progressively darker tone and more vicious behaviour from the Boss as the game goes on.

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## warty goblin

Continuing my habit of trying Soulslikes even though I have disliked every single one of them and the genre they rode in on, I've been delicately poking at Thymesia, a vaguely plague themed Soulslike.

Shockingly I think this one might be OK. They sped up the combat substantially, which weirdly makes it easier for me, since the wind-up animations aren't so long I misread them as opportunities to attack, and my character attacks with enough speed I feel like a proper swordsman, and not the usual Soulsalike slow poke incompetent with a crippling addition to muscle relaxants. 

The combat has a different rhythm to it as well. Your light attack is very fast, but doesn't hit super hard, and it's damage mostly regenerates. To keep that from happening, you need to hit with a heavy attack, which pleasingly is a separate weapon with a shorter range. Get an enemy to zero,  and you can execute them. Do this with a charged strong attack, and you harvest a "plague weapon", a very powerful one use attack. There's also a parry system, you can learn blocking, and a limited-use but recharging interrupt ability for certain enemy attacks. It's a pretty good set of combat abilities, and they generally feel solid to use. 

Everything is vague and plague themed, because that's a creepy aesthetic that hasn't been Soulsaliked yet, and all the genre seems to require is creepy aesthetic + vagueness. At least this one bothers to both explain the gameplay mechanics and clarify that you lost your memory, and going through the different zones will restore it. It's not much, but it does count as actual background and character motivation, and when the competition is as pathetic in these areas as the Soulsalike genre, I'll take it.  The story is unobtrusive, clearly doesn't matter much, and thanks to the game's lack of voice acting, devoid of dudes... slowly... talking... vaguely... about... very... little, which is a plus.

edit: played up to what I think is the first boss. Or at least first substantial miniboss. I'm definitely revising my opinion upwards, the combat is fast, fun, and my terrible reflexes inhibiting my ability to interrupt don't seem to be hampering me all that much. The need to sort of confirm light attack damage with heavy attacks gives things a certain sense of timing and aggression that I enjoy. The skill system is another real plus, you can re-allocate your skill points at any rest location for free, so there's basically no worry about getting your build wrong, and trying out new abilities is extremely low risk. So far I'm having fun and the game hasn't massively pissed me off once, which is a real first for the genre.

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## Corvus

Giving Immortal Empires a go.  Despite hundreds of hours in WH1 and WH2, I couldn't get into WH3.  Not sure why, as Kislev and Nurgle should have really got me into it.

Wanted to give my lizardbois a go, but they are still saddled with the same lacklustre racial mechanics they have always have - CA have agreed that they aren't really that good and need fixing but they haven't changed in over 4 years and don't look like doing so anytime soon.

So what lizard do you play when you aren't playing a lizard?  The big croc of course.  Nakai, at least has had some improvements.  His vassals actually provide an income now allowing you to raise more than 1 army and while allies still can attack our vassal, it isn't as frequent.  So you get to rampage around Cathay as a proper horde, with multiple armies, beating up everything you want without having to worry about the lizardmens racial mechanics.  Its good fun.

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## The Glyphstone

Question for the other WotR people : is there any way in Crusade mode to see how long I have till a morale flag flips, for capturing forts or crushing armies? I'm trying to milk Chapter 3 as long as I can for big armies.

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## NRSASD

Currently playing Project Zomboid, as I have been at least twice a week since B41 dropped. Were entering the end game of our nomadic playthrough, where we wandered across Knox County on foot. We cant stay in one place for more than a night, and we cant use cars much.

We assigned ourselves some goals to keep it entertaining. Weve already watched a movie in a movie theater. Now, we just need to burn down three more churches, film our own last episode of woodcraft, and present Spiffo to the giant golden statue in front of Spiffo HQ. Unfortunately, these objectives will take us into the heart of Louisville, and it is doubtful any of us will survive.

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## Zombimode

> Wanted to give my lizardbois a go, but they are still saddled with the same lacklustre racial mechanics they have always have - CA have agreed that they aren't really that good and need fixing but they haven't changed in over 4 years and don't look like doing so anytime soon.


How can you tell? The fact that something hasn't changed much for a long time is not indication that it wont change ever. Warriors of Chaos were in a very bad state for an even longer time but they got their update and from what I can tell it rocks.

I'm currently leaning towards a Vilitch campaign  :Small Smile:

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## GloatingSwine

> Giving Immortal Empires a go.  Despite hundreds of hours in WH1 and WH2, I couldn't get into WH3.  Not sure why, as Kislev and Nurgle should have really got me into it.
> 
> Wanted to give my lizardbois a go, but they are still saddled with the same lacklustre racial mechanics they have always have - CA have agreed that they aren't really that good and need fixing but they haven't changed in over 4 years and don't look like doing so anytime soon.


Given the absolute ruination they just inflicted on the Dark Elves, reducing their entire racial mechanic to a couple of buttons that aren't even worth pressing past about turn 20, maybe you don't *want* them to pay attention to the Lizardmen...

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## MCerberus

> Given the absolute ruination they just inflicted on the Dark Elves, reducing their entire racial mechanic to a couple of buttons that aren't even worth pressing past about turn 20, maybe you don't *want* them to pay attention to the Lizardmen...


At least they didn't get hit as hard as WH2 Norsca. Actually no, Dark elves get to deal with Valkia.
Between the Norsca buffs, demon factions, the warriors of chaos rework, Cathay having to deal with our favorite stack spamming assassin rat, and the new Happy Chaos Friends, looks like end times are back on the menu.

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## Resileaf

My favorite part of Immortal Empires is definitely the endgame crisises. So many possibilities, so many different scenarios and possible combinations.

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## GloatingSwine

> At least they didn't get hit as hard as WH2 Norsca. Actually no, Dark elves get to deal with Valkia.
> Between the Norsca buffs, demon factions, the warriors of chaos rework, Cathay having to deal with our favorite stack spamming assassin rat, and the new Happy Chaos Friends, looks like end times are back on the menu.


Nearly. I reckon the Dark Elf economy probably got cut by about 80%, and the new mechanic is basically completely noninteractive. The old system was hilariously overpowered if you did it even vaguely properly, but there were a lot milder and also more interesting ways to fix it than replacing it with a dull global resource and some weak buttons that aren't worth pressing.

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## Resileaf

I imagine we'll see a proper slave mechanic rehaul when the Chaos Dwarfs are added to the game since they're pretty big on the slavery front as well.

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## Zombimode

> My favorite part of Immortal Empires is definitely the endgame crisises. So many possibilities, so many different scenarios and possible combinations.


For me the Endgame Crisises is probably the one feature I will ignore completely. My problem with it is that they are an external thing. They do not emerge out the gamestate and the gameworld.
That would be less of an issue if there IS a part of the universe that is external to the world represented in game.

But that is not the case for Immortal Empires. Or rather the parts of the world that are external (Ind, Nippon, Kuresh) are not the originators of any of the crisises.


But this is very much a matter of personal preferences. I'm happy that the feature exists because I think there are many players that appreciate it  :Small Smile:

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## Taevyr

> Question for the other WotR people : is there any way in Crusade mode to see how long I have till a morale flag flips, for capturing forts or crushing armies? I'm trying to milk Chapter 3 as long as I can for big armies.


You shouldn't bother: after chapter 3, you're temporarily unavailable for command, and when you get command again the troops you had are just gone and you start with a set amount (far smaller, if you're anything like me) determined by mythic and earlier choices. I'd explain more, but this is already the least-spoilery way I could do so.

Is it terrible game design? Yes, but that doesn't change it, unfortunately. You can grind your generals and council stats, but that's it.

As for the flags: I actually have no idea if you can see it.

----------


## The Glyphstone

> You shouldn't bother: after chapter 3, you're temporarily unavailable for command, and when you get command again the troops you had are just gone and you start with a set amount (far smaller, if you're anything like me) determined by mythic and earlier choices. I'd explain more, but this is already the least-spoilery way I could do so.
> 
> Is it terrible game design? Yes, but that doesn't change it, unfortunately. You can grind your generals and council stats, but that's it.
> 
> As for the flags: I actually have no idea if you can see it.


What about territory/forts? Is grinding up fort strength and income worth delaying for?

----------


## Thomas Cardew

> For me the Endgame Crisises is probably the one feature I will ignore completely. My problem with it is that they are an external thing. They do not emerge out the gamestate and the gameworld.
> That would be less of an issue if there IS a part of the universe that is external to the world represented in game.
> 
> But that is not the case for Immortal Empires. Or rather the parts of the world that are external (Ind, Nippon, Kuresh) are not the originators of any of the crisises.
> 
> 
> But this is very much a matter of personal preferences. I'm happy that the feature exists because I think there are many players that appreciate it


I'm giving them a shot. My first campaign is Eltharion with the Greenskin crisis selected. Progressing very slowly atm due to limited playtime but I think it will be incredibly themeatic when the inevitable green tide spills forth and the Grim Warden leads his armies to crush it in the badlands. Not foot on Ulthuan. 

I am far less interested in the other ones other than maybe the Wild Hunt, they feel very old world focused. So much like wh3 in general: I'll be happier when the system is fleshed out better. And when all the old races are properly ported over and updated. This was a great first step but there's still a bunch of bugs to fix and some stuff that got left out.

----------


## Taevyr

> What about territory/forts? Is grinding up fort strength and income worth delaying for?


Yeah, those are definitely worth delaying for, both for income and logistics exp: each building adds some of the latter. I'd recommend maxing out the councils, getting 2 generals at a decent level, and filling each fort, if you want an optimal jump-off point.

----------


## Anteros

> What about territory/forts? Is grinding up fort strength and income worth delaying for?


My question is if you enjoy the campaign minigame at all?  If not the combat relief mod I mentioned earlier lets you skip it (toggleable).  I like the Heroes of Might and Magic games, but I already own them.  I didn't enjoy playing a shoddy knock of version in my wrath games.  I know you can turn the campaign mode off from the menu as well, but you miss out on a fair bit of non campaign content by doing that.  Then again, I suppose you wouldn't be asking these questions if you didn't enjoy it.  I'm just throwing the option out there.


Personally, as much as I love turn based tactics, I've been swamped with them lately.  I'm really craving a good RTS.  If anyone could recommend a good one I'd appreciate it.  I know WHIII just hit, but I didn't enjoy II so I probably won't be picking it up until it's on a huge sale.  Even something tower defensey like Taur or They Are Billions would be fine, as long as it's RTS.  I've tried a few recently like Age of Darkness or Starship troopers but didn't really enjoy them.  The new Age of Empires was ok, but didn't hold my interest for long.  Maybe I'm just too picky.

----------


## Cygnia

Solved Egyptian Arcade in Talos Principle.  Looks like they nerfed/patched away the ability to parkour your way through Higher Ground though.

----------


## The Glyphstone

> Yeah, those are definitely worth delaying for, both for income and logistics exp: each building adds some of the latter. I'd recommend maxing out the councils, getting 2 generals at a decent level, and filling each fort, if you want an optimal jump-off point.


If my logistics is maxed out at 5 ( the max pre-act 4, iirc), does building more 'waste' the xp it would generate?

----------


## Triaxx

I've cycled back to old favorites, Fallout 4 and Supreme Commander Forged Alliance Forever. Because not much new excites me right now.

----------


## Zevox

Been playing a lot of Persona 4 Arena Ultimax since its rollback update, and damn, do I love actually getting to play this game with good online. Amazing that it actually happened a full decade after the original release. Can really tell I'm improving, too, as my situational awareness has gotten better in a lot of ways. Most fun of which being that I've started doing crouch confirm combos, something I've never done before in a fighting game. Granted, because it's been like, five years since I last played a fighting game where they much of a thing, but still, always feels good when you're suddenly able to do something you've never been able to pull off in a real match before.

On a related note, I've been trying out a new, fighting-game-adjacent game, Rumbelverse. It's a... Battle Royale game, I guess? Never played one of those before, but it's what the term brings to mind. 40 players get shot out of cannons (yes, literally) into a city, where they collect power ups and special moves, and fight until only one remains standing. The game's "ring" shrinks throughout to force people closer together as the fight goes on and eliminations happen, eventually becoming extremely small, and anyone who is out of the ring for ten seconds loses by ring-out. Core gameplay is kind like a simplified fighting game gameplay - you have your basic rock-paper-scissors of strike-throw-block, but with extra mechanics layered on. There's a dodge action that avoids any attacks, but has a length recovery period, so just waiting, or doing the game's basic attack which has little recovery, will let you punish that. Then there's also a priority system for when two people attack at the same time, where attacks with weapons you've picked up beat normal attacks, special moves beat weapon attacks and normal attacks, and super moves (which you can do while in a super mode that you build meter to enter) beat everything. Super moves work like slow throws though, so dodging them can render them punishable. Same-priority moves cancel each other out. There's some amount of nuance to individual moves, too, although not that much.

All in all, it's a fun little game. My main criticism is that the controls feel kind of awkward at times. The big culprits of this are the item interact/climb button, which just work in odd ways, and dodging. You'd think you would automatically climb a wall you jump towards, but no, have to remember to hit that climb button, or you're falling like a rock. With items, you'd think hitting the item interact button a second time after picking them up would use them, but no, it drops them instead. You hit the attack button while holding an item to use it. And the dodge action being a two-button combination (dash + block, the two shoulder buttons on a controller) is weird to get used to. I looked at remapping some buttons to have a single dodge button, but honestly, the game needs every button as-is, and I can't remap anything else to a two-button combination, so I just couldn't think of a way to do it.

What also makes this game a preferable free-to-play game to me compared to Multiversus a few weeks back is that there is absolutely nothing gameplay-affecting locked away in this game. Every character starts the same, and builds up based on items you find scattered throughout the city. You cannot unlock different characters, nor any ways to get even slightly stronger, through grinding or spending money; you can only do that during a match. For what it does sell the game does, unfortunately, do the f2p currency that you have to buy in certain amounts thing, and the prices do seem higher than I'd like (though less so than some of the things in Multiversus), but everything it asks you to spend money for is strictly cosmetic. And the baseline cosmetic options aren't terrible, either. You get full access to every body type, skin color, a fair amount of hair options, and a few options for your clothing. The extra cosmetics are mostly more varied outfits, and minor things that customize your player card. So I'm much, much less bothered by playing this than I am playing a game like Multiversus.

----------


## Cespenar

> Personally, as much as I love turn based tactics, I've been swamped with them lately.  I'm really craving a good RTS.  If anyone could recommend a good one I'd appreciate it.  I know WHIII just hit, but I didn't enjoy II so I probably won't be picking it up until it's on a huge sale.  Even something tower defensey like Taur or They Are Billions would be fine, as long as it's RTS.  I've tried a few recently like Age of Darkness or Starship troopers but didn't really enjoy them.  The new Age of Empires was ok, but didn't hold my interest for long.  Maybe I'm just too picky.


No WH, no Starship, no AoE4? That's hard. Dune: Spice Wars is the only other one I can remember in recent times, and it's sort of a hybrid.

----------


## warty goblin

Beat the first real miniboss in Thymesia. This was an enjoyable fight, which is something I rarely say about bosses. It took a few tries, but right from the getgo it felt pretty clearly doable, I just needed to learn what mistakes not to make. And switch my skill load out to something a bit more mobile. It helps that the game, in a move that can only be described as good game design, put a rest point right outside the boss room. No five minute hike through dumb weak enemies, just respawn and go.

The other thing that Thymesia does, which took a minute for me to notice, is ditch the gooddamn stamina meter. Thank you game developers, I hate the stamina meter. I really cannot express how little I want to interrupt what is supposed to be a thrilling fantasy sword fight to stare at a tiny little Nope bar in some obscure corner of the screen.




> Personally, as much as I love turn based tactics, I've been swamped with them lately.  I'm really craving a good RTS.  If anyone could recommend a good one I'd appreciate it.  I know WHIII just hit, but I didn't enjoy II so I probably won't be picking it up until it's on a huge sale.  Even something tower defensey like Taur or They Are Billions would be fine, as long as it's RTS.  I've tried a few recently like Age of Darkness or Starship troopers but didn't really enjoy them.  The new Age of Empires was ok, but didn't hold my interest for long.  Maybe I'm just too picky.


Iron Harvest is a couple years old, but still counts as fairly new and is solid. It's basically Company of Heroes but with steam mechs.

On that note, CoH 3 is coming put fairly soon. I'm moderately stoked by this.


What I really miss are singleplayer focused big derpy RTSs. Being built for competitive/esports as these finely balanced players judgement engines means no fun dumb stuff. Like having your cave trolls eat orcs in Battle for Middle Earth II, possibly the most fun RTS ever made. Totally imba, full to the brim of dumb cool fantasy buttons to push, and just a joy to play.

----------


## Thomas Cardew

> Personally, as much as I love turn based tactics, I've been swamped with them lately.  I'm really craving a good RTS.  If anyone could recommend a good one I'd appreciate it.  I know WHIII just hit, but I didn't enjoy II so I probably won't be picking it up until it's on a huge sale.  Even something tower defensey like Taur or They Are Billions would be fine, as long as it's RTS.  I've tried a few recently like Age of Darkness or Starship troopers but didn't really enjoy them.  The new Age of Empires was ok, but didn't hold my interest for long.  Maybe I'm just too picky.


The Loria campaign is decent way to kill a weekend if you're ok with single player. It's basically a Warcraft 2.5 copy. Very visually and unit similar to WC2, but it brings in some of the spellcaster and hero innovations from WC3. It's available free from GOG and I think Steam. It's not a long term solution by any means, but it might scratch the itch for a minute. If nothing else, it gave a great nostalgia high for a few hours before getting shelved. Plus you know... Free.

----------


## Mark Hall

Anyone have suggestions for a Civ-like game? I play and like GalCiv, but sometimes I want to climb a mundane tech tree and build an empire. Civ, however, often strikes me wrong... the insistence on using the BC/AD calendar, and the juxtaposition of historical rulers ("In 500 BC, Catherine of Aragon conquered Ghandi in the name of Islam" breaks my brain) just rubs me the wrong way.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Anyone have suggestions for a Civ-like game? I play and like GalCiv, but sometimes I want to climb a mundane tech tree and build an empire. Civ, however, often strikes me wrong... the insistence on using the BC/AD calendar, and the juxtaposition of historical rulers ("In 500 BC, Catherine of Aragon conquered Ghandi in the name of Islam" breaks my brain) just rubs me the wrong way.


Gladius is apparently a reasonable budget Civ-in-Warhammer-40k clothing.

Humankind was going to be the next big Civ but wasn't for reasons I am not quite sure of (it's apparently a really good game that just didn't take off).

Age of Wonders Planetfall is Civ-ish in terms of city building but has more fighty stuff.

----------


## warty goblin

> Anyone have suggestions for a Civ-like game? I play and like GalCiv, but sometimes I want to climb a mundane tech tree and build an empire. Civ, however, often strikes me wrong... the insistence on using the BC/AD calendar, and the juxtaposition of historical rulers ("In 500 BC, Catherine of Aragon conquered Ghandi in the name of Islam" breaks my brain) just rubs me the wrong way.


I've poked around a bit with Old World, which is good. Complex, very well thought out, and fairly hardcore, but overall excellent. It has a reasonably deep succession system, so you always play as a specific and mortal ruler who has relationships with other specific rules. The time period and location are restricted to a couple centuries in classical antiquity as well, so it just feels a lot conceptually tighter.

I particularly like that it actually has a rural economy, which very much matters and is distinct from the urban economy. They work differently, they produce different goods, and you absolutely need them both.

----------


## Cespenar

Yep, gonna second them all, with Old World and Humankind the underdoggiests among them. Old World is chocolate Civ with a reduced CK2 sauce, while Humankind is strawberry Civ but with some crazy comboable bonuses and whatnot (sprinkles?).

----------


## warty goblin

> Gladius is apparently a reasonable budget Civ-in-Warhammer-40k clothing.
> 
> Age of Wonders Planetfall is Civ-ish in terms of city building but has more fighty stuff.


Gladius looks like a Civ type game, but it really isn't. It's a turn-based RTS. Cities are just RTS bases, complete with each building having its own production queue, and the game is entirely about fighting. There's no diplomacy, just murdering everything. Thematically appropriate!

Gladius is also excellent. You should play it.

I'm not really sure what genre Planetfall is. It's definitely a strategy game, but not a Civ type, or it isn't really a tactics game, or an RPG either. What it is is really complicated, and full of oddly cool and slightly weird sci-fi stuff. Play as bugs and eat people today!

----------


## Taevyr

> If my logistics is maxed out at 5 ( the max pre-act 4, iirc), does building more 'waste' the xp it would generate?


Don't think so: If I'm not mistaken it carries over to later acts. I'd have to look it up to be certain, but I seem to remember being able to almost instantly finish up the diplomacy councils when late-game came knocking due to carry-over exp.

----------


## The Glyphstone

Good to know, thanks.

----------


## Rynjin

> It helps that the game, in a move that can only be described as good game design, put a rest point right outside the boss room. No five minute hike through dumb weak enemies, just respawn and go.


Probably the second most welcome change in Elden Ring, next to the jump button.




> The other thing that Thymesia does, which took a minute for me to notice, is ditch the gooddamn stamina meter. Thank you game developers, I hate the stamina meter. I really cannot express how little I want to interrupt what is supposed to be a thrilling fantasy sword fight to stare at a tiny little Nope bar in some obscure corner of the screen.


The lack of a stamina bar is what made me scratch my head at people calling it a "Soulslike". Lacking a stamina bar makes it a straight character action game, akin to God of War, Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, etc. That's really the main thing separating the Soulsbornering franchise from other character action games: resource management.

It did look neat though, what I saw of it a while back. The health regain "plague" mechanic seemed really interesting, but the animations looked clunky. Reminded me of Darksiders in that way.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Eyes have healed enough that I can read for a couple of hours, so I've been playing a bit of Shadowrun Hong Kong.

I really wouldn't mind full voice acting, but yeah this is what I want out of an RPG at the moment. Rolled up an ork mage called Sparkles, and it's nice to just spend a lot of time talking to people. It's also nice not to have to worry about romance options, and to have solid if plain turn based combat. It's certainly a worthy successor to Dragonfall, even if not as entertaining.

I also really like that orks are now tall and relatively lean. It really helps visually differentiate them from trolls, and it feels like they've got better posture.

It's making want to run an actual Shadowrun campaign, although maybe not with the actual rules.

----------


## Rynjin

Yeah. I love the Shadowrun setting, but the rules are pretty off-putting. Though that's mostly because of the ENDLESS GEAR TABLES, the rules themselves for resolution etc. seemed pretty intuitive the one time I tried to make a Shadowrun character, but my dumb ass chose to make a Rigger as my first character and it was...just so much to take in, I had to withdraw from the game.

----------


## warty goblin

> The lack of a stamina bar is what made me scratch my head at people calling it a "Soulslike". Lacking a stamina bar makes it a straight character action game, akin to God of War, Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, etc. That's really the main thing separating the Soulsbornering franchise from other character action games: resource management.


It does have limited healing, saves that respawn enemies, and that thing where you drop all your XP when you die, so it's got like 80% of the standard Soulsalike kit of features. Most of which bug me, but the lack of the stamina bar, faster animation, and what feels like some degree of animation canceling improves combat immensely. I actually feel like a skilled swordsman with magic, not a bungling incompetent. 




> It did look neat though, what I saw of it a while back. The health regain "plague" mechanic seemed really interesting, but the animations looked clunky. Reminded me of Darksiders in that way.


It doesn't look the smoothest maybe, but it feels very smooth to play. It's roughly the sort of third person action game I really like.

----------


## WritersBlock

I played both the Snes and the Genesis/Megadrive versions of Shadowrun not that long ago. Both are great in their own completely different ways. The latter does follow the rules a little bit closer than the former and has an extremely high tier character from the setting making an appearance going for it.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Yeah. I love the Shadowrun setting, but the rules are pretty off-putting. Though that's mostly because of the ENDLESS GEAR TABLES, the rules themselves for resolution etc. seemed pretty intuitive the one time I tried to make a Shadowrun character, but my dumb ass chose to make a Rigger as my first character and it was...just so much to take in, I had to withdraw from the game.


I find that Anarchy is better for that reason, although it has the annoyance of having Plot Points as well as Edge. It also doesn't have reaction enhancers as the be-all and end-all of combat. But honestly I'd still rather run it in Modern AGE or the like.

Like, I just can't deal with eight different augmentation tables these days. Even having to buy starting equipment is annoying.

----------


## Cespenar

Tabletop systems really need to have a redux version for people who already have fulltime jobs and just want to enjoy the worldbuilding, setting and atmosphere.

Go crazy in the CRPGs, fine, but when I'm crossreferencing tables after a certain age just to be able to start playing a game, I'd rather do some actual work and get paid.

Also, easier entrance = more people getting their feet wet = better things for the system and all that, but never mind.

----------


## Mark Hall

> It's making want to run an actual Shadowrun campaign, although maybe not with the actual rules.


Did I mention I have a Shadowrun Savage Worlds hack recently?

----------


## Alcore

> Anyone have suggestions for a Civ-like game? I play and like GalCiv, but sometimes I want to climb a mundane tech tree and build an empire. Civ, however, often strikes me wrong... the insistence on using the BC/AD calendar, and the juxtaposition of historical rulers ("In 500 BC, Catherine of Aragon conquered Ghandi in the name of Islam" breaks my brain) just rubs me the wrong way.


Endless Legend.


It leans heavily into fantasy. Each race has their gimik (the Vaulters are the most 4X civ) and I am presently playing the Cultists of the Eternal End. They can have only one city but the eventual population of that city can dwarf whole empires on smaller maps.

I have been spending the last hour keeping one of my converted villages mine in the west. The Vaulters annoyed me enough to war on them for a bit resulting in a no man's land but the Roving Clans keep bitting. I wasn't ready before but now? I don't think I'll stop when they cry. My north is reasonably secured by the Silics (who number 5 and counting) and my south ends in an ocean but I do need to send a preacher down to collect the remainder of the demon villages. 

Soon the slaves will be gathered... I just need an extra hero to lead them.

----------


## AlanBruce

I recently got my hands on Tormented Souls. Developed by a small studio, it pays homage to old school survival horrir games like Alone in the Dark, Resident Evil & Silent Hill.

It has fixed camera angles and tank controls. The details into the environments is astounding, which cannot be said for the protagonist. Still, it encapsulates the survival horror feeling rather well. And the myriad of puzzles keep you guessing for a good while.

----------


## Anteros

> Endless Legend.
> 
> 
> It leans heavily into fantasy. Each race has their gimik (the Vaulters are the most 4X civ) and I am presently playing the Cultists of the Eternal End. They can have only one city but the eventual population of that city can dwarf whole empires on smaller maps.
> 
> I have been spending the last hour keeping one of my converted villages mine in the west. The Vaulters annoyed me enough to war on them for a bit resulting in a no man's land but the Roving Clans keep bitting. I wasn't ready before but now? I don't think I'll stop when they cry. My north is reasonably secured by the Silics (who number 5 and counting) and my south ends in an ocean but I do need to send a preacher down to collect the remainder of the demon villages. 
> 
> Soon the slaves will be gathered... I just need an extra hero to lead them.


Endless legend looks decent, but the ridiculous number of DLCs they've sold has always stopped me.  I can't justify over 100 dollars on a single game, even if I can afford it.  

I do need to say thanks for the RTS suggestions.  I haven't gotten around to trying them yet, but hopefully I'll have some time to do so soon.

----------


## Rynjin

> Endless legend looks decent, but the ridiculous number of DLCs they've sold has always stopped me.  I can't justify over 100 dollars on a single game, even if I can afford it.  
> 
> I do need to say thanks for the RTS suggestions.  I haven't gotten around to trying them yet, but hopefully I'll have some time to do so soon.


You don't really need all the DLCs to play, and I think it's well worth picking up without them. Easily my favorite 4X game of all time. It's $30 for ENDLESS hours of entertainment! 

The main thing some DLCs add is new factions, and the only two that add new universal mechanics are The Forgotten (which add espionage mechanics) and Morgawr (which overhauls seafaring). Others are much more minor mechanical shifts. So adding those two, it's still under $60.

----------


## Alcore

> Endless legend looks decent, but the ridiculous number of DLCs they've sold has always stopped me.  I can't justify over 100 dollars on a single game, even if I can afford it.  
> 
> I do need to say thanks for the RTS suggestions.  I haven't gotten around to trying them yet, but hopefully I'll have some time to do so soon.


I do not have all the dlc. I only pay what I think a game is worth. It was for sale so I gambled and knew a dozen hours in that I underpaid. 


Try it (it's just 30 for the base game, I think?)


When finances permit I think I'll pay full price for the water themed dlc. The seas are underused.

----------


## MCerberus

Wood elf apocalypse armies have bonus ammo.
Lord Croak has like 75% missile resist and they just... melted him back dead. Then they turned on my poor, defenseless t-rexes. 

The dwarves were right, should have never trusted the damn pointy-ears.

----------


## Anteros

On the topic of 4x games...can anyone explain to me the purpose of economic buildings in Total War games?  They seem completely useless.  

Example:  The kislev storehouse.  At the base level it gives you 100 gold per turn.  There's 5 upgrade levels, and at max level it gives you 500 gold per turn.  In order to achieve this you need to invest a whopping 18,000 gold.  Factoring in building time, you're looking at something like 45 turns for the building to pay for itself in an absolute best case scenario where you can upgrade to maximum immediately.  More realistically you're looking at something like 70ish turns for the building to pay for itself.  In a game where the typical map length is 100ish.  Why does anyone ever build these?  You could have invested that 18k into your army and snowballed the whole game into a win instead of upgrading one building.  Outside of rare exceptions, building economic buildings almost always seems like a massive trap.  I don't know if it's just badly designed, intentional in order to discourage turtle strats, or I'm missing something but it seems completely nonsensical.

This was just a random example, but it's something I've noticed across various Total War games.

----------


## MCerberus

Generally you're going to want to put economic buildings in regions that you can work multipliers into. Also the lower level buildings are generally more efficient. So you're playing dwarves and have a region with a gem mine. That's good money, but you put a storehouse in that region and you get extra money... and oathgold! and you can trade the gems for more to other factions. And since you have a multiplier running, might was well put an industry building in the region. And when it comes time to make big investments, _make sure you always have construction cost reduction_.

Or a different example, say you're playing orcs.
The orc buildings have really bad RoI for passive income. Don't build them. But there is a building that increases battle, sacking, and raiding loot. And it stacks.
So you build that and get to crumping.

Kislev is just generally poor and the regions they give it don't have much cash opportunity, so you end up barely able to afford your doom stack of bears, even though you have the lord that gives you 50% upkeep reduction. I don't like Kislev, they make it hard to field their fun units. Like the ice bears, the guns pulled by bears, and the bear sleds. However, there seems to be a gold mine region with 4 settlements just down south and nobody would mind if something... happened to the vampire counts.

----------


## Anteros

Right.  The lower tier buildings are more economical, only taking 10 or so turns to pay for themselves.  It just makes me wonder why these awful buildings even exist though except perhaps as a trap for people who are bad at math. I'm the type of player that typically enjoys building up a base even though I know offensive strategies are far more effective, but these options are so terrible I can't even justify them.   

I mean, it's nice when you capture a town from the AI and they've built one for you I suppose, but I can't see why anyone would ever want to build one in the first place.  I'd like it better if the economy actually made sense and gave the player meaningful choices is all.

----------


## Resileaf

Personally I find that even if the return on investment isn't that good, the extra gold per turn is still necessary to increase how much upkeep you can pay every turn. Sometimes you have downtime in your conquests, or your faction isn't focused on raiding and destroying enemy cities or even gets penalties from doing so (Bretonnia), so building up your economy will be most of what you can do for the moment.

----------


## Anteros

> Personally I find that even if the return on investment isn't that good, the extra gold per turn is still necessary to increase how much upkeep you can pay every turn. Sometimes you have downtime in your conquests, or your faction isn't focused on raiding and destroying enemy cities or even gets penalties from doing so (Bretonnia), so building up your economy will be most of what you can do for the moment.


I've seen this argument before, and maybe there's something I don't understand...but it seems to me that if the building hasn't even paid for your initial investment to build it then the extra income isn't actually helping you at all.  Like, sure 500 gold a turn is nice for paying upkeep, and it's nice to have a surplus instead of a deficit...but it cost you 18k to get there that you would have otherwise banked that you could have also used to pay upkeep...not to mention giving you an enormous power spike to go take other towns and take their money.

Again, I'm not talking about the lower tier buildings that are actually somewhat efficient.  I'm talking about the awful ones that take 50+ turns to repay your investment.  They're just never worth it unless you can absolutely guarantee you won't get attacked while you recoup your losses.

----------


## Resileaf

> Again, I'm not talking about the lower tier buildings that are actually somewhat efficient.  I'm talking about the awful ones that take 50+ turns to repay your investment.  They're just never worth it unless you can absolutely guarantee you won't get attacked while you recoup your losses.


If the campaign lasts more than 50 turns after that point, it has paid for itself.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> I've seen this argument before, and maybe there's something I don't understand...but it seems to me that if the building hasn't even paid for your initial investment to build it then the extra income isn't actually helping you at all.  Like, sure 500 gold a turn is nice for paying upkeep, and it's nice to have a surplus instead of a deficit...but it cost you 18k to get there that you would have otherwise banked that you could have also used to pay upkeep...not to mention giving you an enormous power spike to go take other towns and take their money.
> 
> Again, I'm not talking about the lower tier buildings that are actually somewhat efficient.  I'm talking about the awful ones that take 50+ turns to repay your investment.  They're just never worth it unless you can absolutely guarantee you won't get attacked while you recoup your losses.


Armies are less reliable than background income from buildings.

The cost of armies doesn't scale linearly, every army you recruit makes all your armies more expensive to upkeep, and for almost all factions even if an army has a good battle every turn it won't make its own upkeep back. That means that if you just try to run an economy entirely off of armies without something backing them you need to be a faction that either makes an incredibly large amount of money from battles and sacking settlements or one that can greatly reduce its upkeep _and_ operate with very few armies. 

That means that the value of raising another army and sending it to go out and get loot is extremely dependent on who you are playing as, who you are nearby, and whether you can guarantee a consistent stream of high value targets.

Also, armies have relatively high spin-up costs because you have limited slots for recruitment, which means that when you do start a new army it will sit there being a giant upkeep sink for several turns before it has even had its first fight.

That means that it is generally better to operate with only as many armies as you can keep active at all times (either having a fight or going to a fight every turn), and use the rest of your income to get more stable income by constructing economic buildings.

----------


## Rodin

Started up my first Elden Ring Randomizer run.  Items randomized but with key items still in "important locations", all regular enemies randomized equally and all bosses randomized within the same category (major, minor, and mini).  

So far it's been the most fun I've had with a randomizer.  The Dark Souls 1 randomizer had more than a little jank in it and you could get utterly screwed by RNG placing an unbeatable boss in a mandatory early location (like getting Gwyn on the Taurus Demon bridge) .  It also didn't have level scaling and the item pool was small enough to pretty much guarantee some OP items early.

Elden Ring has been much more balanced.  There's quite a few bosses I can't beat because the solo boss was replaced by a dual or even triple boss, but the great thing is that I can just search elsewhere!  The level scaling is also a godsend.  It has been interesting to see that non-boss minibosses (like Crucible Knights) are still way stronger than everything else and some enemies benefit greatly from being put on an even keel with everything else.  Bears (not runebears, bear bears) are actually surprisingly dangerous, especially if you meet one in a dark cave.

The only bit of OP luck I've had so far is getting the Elden Beast's soul off a random enemy.  I debated not using it, but then I found out that Margrit's position is being filled by _Malenia_.  Chugged those souls right away after I learned that, I'm going to need as many levels as I can get if I want to have a chance of getting Stormveil Castle's juicy piles of loot.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Well I nearly got the elders arrested, but I was missing one freaking piece of evidence. So it became a choice of killing them or killing Gaichu.

I did at least subdue Porter Lambecause evidence suggests he wasn't involved 

Suffice to say that my team has a new member. He might be as amoral as Ratcer, but out of the two sides he's the one who demonstrated a sense of honour by agreeing to try to talk it out. Plus while I might have put Koseci on the melee track I'd rather have a dedicated melee character in the team.

So my standard loadout looks to be:
-Main character: ranged DPR, debuffs, Academic and Shadowrunner etiquettes.
-Duncan: AP damage, occasional full auto bursts
-Gaichu: melee DPR
-Is0bel: matrix stuff

Ratcer night sub in for Gaichu if it feels the run fits him better, and while Gobbet's support spells would be useful I just kind of can't fit her into the team (maybe if I'd started giving Duncan lethal skills).

Also visiting Crafty Wu after every mission. Partially to see if there's new spells I can nab, partially to see if I'm wrong and the Devs snuck in romance options. Going to have to buff my INT a bit to get some of the good stuff, but that's not inherently a bad thing.

----------


## Rynjin

> Started up my first Elden Ring Randomizer run.  Items randomized but with key items still in "important locations", all regular enemies randomized equally and all bosses randomized within the same category (major, minor, and mini).  
> 
> So far it's been the most fun I've had with a randomizer.  The Dark Souls 1 randomizer had more than a little jank in it and you could get utterly screwed by RNG placing an unbeatable boss in a mandatory early location (like getting Gwyn on the Taurus Demon bridge) .  It also didn't have level scaling and the item pool was small enough to pretty much guarantee some OP items early.
> 
> Elden Ring has been much more balanced.  There's quite a few bosses I can't beat because the solo boss was replaced by a dual or even triple boss, but the great thing is that I can just search elsewhere!  The level scaling is also a godsend.  It has been interesting to see that non-boss minibosses (like Crucible Knights) are still way stronger than everything else and some enemies benefit greatly from being put on an even keel with everything else.  Bears (not runebears, bear bears) are actually surprisingly dangerous, especially if you meet one in a dark cave.
> 
> The only bit of OP luck I've had so far is getting the Elden Beast's soul off a random enemy.  I debated not using it, but then I found out that Margrit's position is being filled by _Malenia_.  Chugged those souls right away after I learned that, I'm going to need as many levels as I can get if I want to have a chance of getting Stormveil Castle's juicy piles of loot.


I've been having fun with a co-op Randomizer run as well. I love how customizable this one is so you can cut down on some of the BS usually inherent in Randomizers, like getting randomly softlocked or enemies not being scaled.

Lobsters are still awful in Limgrave but at least they're not literally unstoppable because they're using Leyndell Sewers level values.

That didn't stop me from getting my ass kicked by the tutorial boss: Crucible Knight Ordovis of Godrick (and his brother Crucible Knight of Godrick), but still.

----------


## Rodin

> I've been having fun with a co-op Randomizer run as well. I love how customizable this one is so you can cut down on some of the BS usually inherent in Randomizers, like getting randomly softlocked or enemies not being scaled.
> 
> Lobsters are still awful in Limgrave but at least they're not literally unstoppable because they're using Leyndell Sewers level values.
> 
> That didn't stop me from getting my ass kicked by the tutorial boss: Crucible Knight Ordovis of Godrick (and his brother Crucible Knight of Godrick), but still.


I had to re-roll my starting character because I hadn't reckoned on the tutorial boss.  Godskin Apostle of Godrick stomped my face when I strolled in there with only a Cinqueda.  Since I had rested at the tutorial Grace and hadn't unlocked any others that was it.  I started a new character and came back later and showed him what's what.

The coolest part so far for me is how the randomizer changes how I approach points of interest in the world.  I have several areas marked that have chests I can't get because the enemy camps are full of terrifying enemies.  There's also a lot of places in the overworld that you are permitted to use Spirit Ashes but which do not contain a baoss.  In the base game this is kind of pointless - the camps are easy enough to clear out without using a summon.  In the randomizer it's _necessary_ to have a tank for some of these areas that drop a bunch of high tier knights on you if you move towards the treasure chest.

Biggest concern at the moment is that questlines give items, which means I want to actually do Roderika's questline and get the reward from her.  Unfortnuately, the item required for her quest is locked behind Malenia.  ...I may just have to bite the bullet on this one and hope it's not important.

Coolest thematically appropriate random placement so far:  A Stonedigger Troll in one of the the big mine caverns.  It looked like the room was designed for him, and you come in on an upper level to give you an appropriate "Oh crap..." moment.

----------


## Rynjin

> Coolest thematically appropriate random placement so far:  A Stonedigger Troll in one of the the big mine caverns.  It looked like the room was designed for him, and you come in on an upper level to give you an appropriate "Oh crap..." moment.


My favorite is finding the "Unseen Assassins" note in a grave, and then a few minutes later getting jumped in the woods near the Frenzied Village by one of the perma-invisible Black knife Assassins. Cue panicked screaming.

----------


## Anteros

> If the campaign lasts more than 50 turns after that point, it has paid for itself.


Sure, but alternatively you could leverage that money into an advantage now which will snowball into an even larger advantage later.  




> Armies are less reliable than background income from buildings.
> 
> The cost of armies doesn't scale linearly, every army you recruit makes all your armies more expensive to upkeep, and for almost all factions even if an army has a good battle every turn it won't make its own upkeep back. That means that if you just try to run an economy entirely off of armies without something backing them you need to be a faction that either makes an incredibly large amount of money from battles and sacking settlements or one that can greatly reduce its upkeep _and_ operate with very few armies. 
> 
> That means that the value of raising another army and sending it to go out and get loot is extremely dependent on who you are playing as, who you are nearby, and whether you can guarantee a consistent stream of high value targets.
> 
> Also, armies have relatively high spin-up costs because you have limited slots for recruitment, which means that when you do start a new army it will sit there being a giant upkeep sink for several turns before it has even had its first fight.
> 
> That means that it is generally better to operate with only as many armies as you can keep active at all times (either having a fight or going to a fight every turn), and use the rest of your income to get more stable income by constructing economic buildings.


I don't mean to be argumentative, but I've simply never had a problem with maintaining my upkeep from battles in any Total War game with any faction on any difficulty.  I'm sure it would be different against human opponents, but the AI absolutely loves to throw tons of garbage armies at you.  Now, I haven't calculated it out or anything, but I've been playing these games for years and I've never once felt the need to build an economic building.  You end up with plenty of them anyway with the lands you take from the AI.

----------


## Resileaf

And it's done, I have completed the main campaign of AC 3. Desmond is dead ("It will be over in an instant" my ass, that was a solid five seconds), Juno is unleashed, apocalypse is canceled, all that good stuff.

It was a good story overall. It would have been more enjoyable without the collectibles distraction though. The Homestead quests were also a highlight, and Achilles' passing was particularly impactful. I kind of think you could make a pretty good game of just the Homestead development. I think the game glitched on me or something though. I don't think I got all the epilogues. It told me that I had to go to Boston, but then the quest marker just disappeared. 

Was the Benedict Arnold questline DLC? It felt off and disconnected to everything, the map was uninteresting and the missions were overall uninspired. I guess they put the bulk of their efforts in King Washington.

Three days left to do that. If there isn't too much padding, it shouldn't be too long to do, hopefully.

----------


## Cazero

> I don't mean to be argumentative, but I've simply never had a problem with maintaining my upkeep from battles in any Total War game with any faction on any difficulty.  I'm sure it would be different against human opponents, but the AI absolutely loves to throw tons of garbage armies at you.


Strange. In my experience, the AI makes sure to keep their even slightly weaker armies just a little bit out of reach, and is willing to abandon the defense of settlements to do so. It takes multiple turns or a lucky ambushing (sometimes failing even at 100% annouced success rate) to catch up.

----------


## Theoboldi

Just tried out Midnight Fight Express, a very cool top-down beat-em-up with gritty John Wick-style action. 

The story itself and the kinds of villains you go up against are extremely over the top, but it does deliver on the fast-paced mixture of kung fu, guns, gun fu, and kicking chairs into people's faces. Everything that happens feels appropriately lethal and dangerous, and especially as you unlock moves you start feeling like an absolute powerhouse taking on incredible odds.

For the most part, the challenge is tough but fair. You don't have a lot of health, and enemies can overwhelm you quickly if there's many of them or they have weapons. But in return they also can't take much punishment, even (most of) the bosses, so you're encouraged to fight dirty and aggressive.

There are some issues though. Enemies with heavy guns, like assault rifles, sniper rifles or grenade launchers are appropriately dangerous, which often means they can kill you in a split second from across the screen before you get a chance to react. Dying isn't too punishing, but it's still frustrating, especially as the game later on expects to take on large groups of these foes. And if you don't already have a gun with you once they start firing, it just becomes a matter of rolling around, abusing invincibility frames and occasionally throwing a single punch until one goes down and you can take their gun. The usual methods of disarming you have also don't work well on them, because they leave you as a sitting duck and get you killed.

There's also some issues with stage hazards sometimes not being telegraphed, some lacking warning markers while some that have them allow them to be obscured by scattered objects. This can lead to the occasional cheap death as you don't see you're standing in the instant death zone.

Finally, there's some (thankfully non-recurring and rare) enemies and bosses with annoying gimmicks, who end up being immune to most of your arsenal of moves, leaving you to fall back on much less fun hit and run tactics that break the pacing. Sometimes they can be fun as the stage gives you interesting other ways to deal with them, but sometimes not.

Overall though, it was very fun. Would recommend checking this out if you're into over-the top action. The frustrating parts are worth dealing with, and for 20 bucks you're getting a good few hours of fun. Emphasis on a few, though.

----------


## Rodin

> My favorite is finding the "Unseen Assassins" note in a grave, and then a few minutes later getting jumped in the woods near the Frenzied Village by one of the perma-invisible Black knife Assassins. Cue panicked screaming.


Nice!  I've been lucky enough to not run into any of those yet, or any other world-bosses-with-no-healthbar except for the ubiquituous Crucible Knights.

I did manage to fully clear Limgrave and Weeping Peninsula without leaving those zones to hunt for better materials, which left me only one place to go:  Malenia.

And I can't do it.  She's heavily nerfed over her "true form" thanks to level scaling, but even so it's just not possible for me to take her down with only +2 Somber weapons at around level 40.  I can survive Waterfowl Dance if she does it when I'm at full health, and I even managed to take her to second phase a couple times.  But that's where it ends - Margrit's Bridge is a tiny boss arena and it's basically impossible to avoid the Scarlet Aeonia opener to phase two, and even getting her to that phase takes all 6 of my flasks.

I'm gonna have to break my rule and bypass her for now.  What's really worrying me is that I don't know how to get into any of the other legacy dungeons other than Radahn's.  Raya Lucaria requires the key, which has been randomized off somewhere.  Volcano Manor needs either the parlor key (randomized) or getting eaten by an Abductor Virgin that won't be there.  And Leyendell requires getting two Great Runes when the bosses might not drop them!

----------


## Anteros

> Strange. In my experience, the AI makes sure to keep their even slightly weaker armies just a little bit out of reach, and is willing to abandon the defense of settlements to do so. It takes multiple turns or a lucky ambushing (sometimes failing even at 100% annouced success rate) to catch up.


It probably depends on if you're rolling in with what the ai perceives to be a death stack or something they can beat. I usually tend to favor multiple smaller armies since even on legendary the ai is so bad that you can reliably beat them while outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1.  It means you can't auto Calc most battles, but the auto Calc is so unreliable I don't like to use it anyway unless I have a huge advantage. 

Like seriously, the AI in these games is almost unacceptably bad. There's so many strategies that it just can't deal with at all. Anything more complex than just lumping your units together with the archers in the back will have it running in circles.  It's especially bad in Warhammer.  Kiting was already easy but adding flying units makes it ridiculously so. Or just lumping your enemies up on one target and blasting them all with a spell.

I know ai is hard, and some of the maps in this game are very complex which makes it even harder....but this ai is basically the same level as stuff you'd see 20 years ago. You'd think that after so many releases of basically the same game with different skins they'd have fine tuned it a little.  I think it's actually worse than in their older games.

----------


## Rynjin

> I did manage to fully clear Limgrave and Weeping Peninsula without leaving those zones to hunt for better materials, which left me only one place to go:  Malenia.
> 
> And I can't do it.  She's heavily nerfed over her "true form" thanks to level scaling, but even so it's just not possible for me to take her down with only +2 Somber weapons at around level 40.  I can survive Waterfowl Dance if she does it when I'm at full health, and I even managed to take her to second phase a couple times.  But that's where it ends - Margrit's Bridge is a tiny boss arena and it's basically impossible to avoid the Scarlet Aeonia opener to phase two, and even getting her to that phase takes all 6 of my flasks.
> 
> I'm gonna have to break my rule and bypass her for now.  What's really worrying me is that I don't know how to get into any of the other legacy dungeons other than Radahn's.  Raya Lucaria requires the key, which has been randomized off somewhere.  Volcano Manor needs either the parlor key (randomized) or getting eaten by an Abductor Virgin that won't be there.  And Leyendell requires getting two Great Runes when the bosses might not drop them!


Yeah, situations like this are probably why the Randomizer has a "disable Malenia self-healing" toggle.

----------


## Mechalich

I finally managed to beat the main story of Sands of Salzaar. The game's come a long way since early access with a lot of the nasty grinding removed (I think, I still conquered everyone to set up max legacy bonus, but I don't believe that's actually necessary anymore). It's a fun little army/party builder sort of game though it could use some more polish.

----------


## Anteros

> Nice!  I've been lucky enough to not run into any of those yet, or any other world-bosses-with-no-healthbar except for the ubiquituous Crucible Knights.
> 
> I did manage to fully clear Limgrave and Weeping Peninsula without leaving those zones to hunt for better materials, which left me only one place to go:  Malenia.
> 
> And I can't do it.  She's heavily nerfed over her "true form" thanks to level scaling, but even so it's just not possible for me to take her down with only +2 Somber weapons at around level 40.  I can survive Waterfowl Dance if she does it when I'm at full health, and I even managed to take her to second phase a couple times.  But that's where it ends - Margrit's Bridge is a tiny boss arena and it's basically impossible to avoid the Scarlet Aeonia opener to phase two, and even getting her to that phase takes all 6 of my flasks.
> 
> I'm gonna have to break my rule and bypass her for now.  What's really worrying me is that I don't know how to get into any of the other legacy dungeons other than Radahn's.  Raya Lucaria requires the key, which has been randomized off somewhere.  Volcano Manor needs either the parlor key (randomized) or getting eaten by an Abductor Virgin that won't be there.  And Leyendell requires getting two Great Runes when the bosses might not drop them!


Well, the bright side is radahn's fight should be easy since you'll fight a random boss there not intended to be fought with all those adds.  I'd probably head there next and hope some of those other issues resolve themselves in the meantime.  

You guys have got me tempted to try the randomizer myself.  It sounds fun.

----------


## Zombimode

> Like seriously, the AI in these games is almost unacceptably bad. There's so many strategies that it just can't deal with at all. Anything more complex than just lumping your units together with the archers in the back will have it running in circles.  It's especially bad in Warhammer.  Kiting was already easy but adding flying units makes it ridiculously so. Or just lumping your enemies up on one target and blasting them all with a spell.
> 
> I know ai is hard, and some of the maps in this game are very complex which makes it even harder....but this ai is basically the same level as stuff you'd see 20 years ago. You'd think that after so many releases of basically the same game with different skins they'd have fine tuned it a little.  I think it's actually worse than in their older games.


Before you go on I would like that you ask yourself if there are maybe other reasons why the AI behaves they way it does.

Challenge is not the only goal and arguebly it is not even close to being the most important goal (for the majority of gamers). Spectacle and aethetics of play are likely more important.

"Staunch lines of spears" instead of Archer Checkerboxes exists because that is how people want to play.


A Total War battle AI that plays "optimally" would look completely different from the "big armies clash" spectacle that Total War wants to provide.


I've started a Vilitch campaign on the Realms of Chaos map. And I'm loving it. Vilitch is a cool lord with pretty funny skills. I love the changes made to diplomacy and war coordination.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Rodin

> Yeah, situations like this are probably why the Randomizer has a "disable Malenia self-healing" toggle.


I saw that in the Randomizer options, and debated heavily whether to turn it off or not.  Life steal is the sole reason why Malenia is so OP - Waterfowl Dance is just an HP check, and if she doesn't lifesteal there are many other strategies you can use to beat her.  I settled on off, entirely out of hubris.  

To be fair to myself, this spawn is the single unluckiest one.  Even swapping only main bosses it's single digits.  I'm not sure exactly what the criteria they used is - I counted on fingers and came up with 15+, but checking Fextralife several of those are listed separately to main bosses.  That includes Margrit, which is why I'm in this pickle in the first place.  According to the item randomizer it's around 30, or around 3% chance of getting this particular spawn.

It's also the ONLY spawn that blocks a legacy dungeon.  The Draconic Tree Sentinel is a field boss - I fought and killed him already.  The Red Wolf of Radagon may count, but he's towards the end of the dungeon.  All the others are end of dungeon bosses.




> Well, the bright side is radahn's fight should be easy since you'll fight a random boss there not intended to be fought with all those adds.  I'd probably head there next and hope some of those other issues resolve themselves in the meantime.  
> 
> You guys have got me tempted to try the randomizer myself.  It sounds fun.


Radahn's fight _would_ be the smart move.  Unfortunately I can't go there yet based on my own self-imposed rules.  When I watched the randomizer Boss Rush (speedrunning the game with randomized enemies and bosses and keeping score based on who you kill) he did what everybody does - he ignored all content in favor of sprinting over to Caelid/Dragonbarrow and grabbing all the high end Somber Smithing stones laying around out there.  He also whacked the great white dragon (who doesn't get randomized) while he was at it for the massive souls boost.  

I didn't want to cheese the game that way, especially since there's a randomizer option that lets you limit smithing stone availability based on level.  The mines have smithing stones in the same place as normal and they're roughly the same level as normal.  Higher level smithing stones are mostly prevented from spawning in low level areas.  The easy way to beat the game would be to do a mine rush - hit the mines in Limgrave and Weeping Peninsula, then Liurnia, then Caelid, then use the power boost to get yourself up to Altus Plateau and hit the mines there.

The rules I put in place were that I couldn't go fishing for loot.  I can't beeline it to the mine in each new area, I have to clear in a steady pattern across the map.  I have to full clear each area before leaving, including defeating every boss.

I can now see that last was a bit optimistic.  Malenia in Margrit's boss location is one of the worst, but there are others I can now imagine.  How about Rykard in Rennala's library, and when you transition off him you've got Elden Beast in Rennala's second phase?  Nightmare material.

So what I think I'm going to do is add a "best efforts clause".  I've already been playing with boss skipping - I don't have to fight bosses I've no chance of winning against, I just have to come back later and beat them before being allowed to move to a new zone.  I just have to add that for legacy dungeons and their bosses.  If a legacy dungeon is inaccessible due to RNJesus then I'm allowed to skip it, and that includes getting bad boss luck as long as I put the effort in to beat the boss and fail.

The randomizer is incredibly fun, especially since it allows for tactics you normally can't do.  I beat Elemer of the Briar because he spawned near a ledge and I was able to get under him and shank his ankles.

----------


## Anteros

> Before you go on I would like that you ask yourself if there are maybe other reasons why the AI behaves they way it does.
> 
> Challenge is not the only goal and arguebly it is not even close to being the most important goal (for the majority of gamers). Spectacle and aethetics of play are likely more important.
> 
> "Staunch lines of spears" instead of Archer Checkerboxes exists because that is how people want to play.
> 
> 
> A Total War battle AI that plays "optimally" would look completely different from the "big armies clash" spectacle that Total War wants to provide.
> 
> ...


Then why do difficulty levels exist?  Why have a legendary difficulty if it's going to have the same terrible AI as the easy one?  Right now the only difference between legendary and easy is that the AI cheats more so it fields larger stacks to run into your grinder.  I understand wanting to make players feel like they're smart and good at the game, but harder difficulties at least should be challenging.  I'm not asking for optimal play.  I'm asking it to be smarter than games that came out 20+ years ago.  I played a campaign last night where the AI kept attacking my fully fortified town with stacks of 3 units every turn.  They don't even make it past the gate.  They just run forward and then run away.  Every turn.  I can't auto-calc it though because the auto calc is so bad it thinks I should take "medium losses" despite them literally not even reaching my units, so every time I end turn I have to go through 2 loading screens and several minutes of the AI running forward and dying to towers before it runs away just to repeat with new units the next turn.  It made me abandon the campaign.

There are plenty of games where I want to turn my brain off and smash things.  *Grand strategy* games are not one of those niches.  I would expect most people who enjoy the genre to agree with me, although I obviously can't speak for anyone but myself.  In Total War it's so bad that it's not even turning your brain off.  You have to intentionally play poorly and implement bad strategies to give the AI a chance.  It's like a version of chess except instead of trying to out-position each other both players just mash their pieces into each other and see who has more standing at the end.  If that's satisfying to you then great, but it's not what I expect when I buy a chess board.  

You're right though.  All of my ramblings are about what I think a strategy game should try to provide.  What they're actually intending to provide is all the spectacle of the ocean with the depth of a puddle.  I suppose it must be working for them given that players keep buying their "new' game every year.  I shouldn't be surprised given the success of similar franchises like Fifa or Madden.  Why bother making a game when you can just slap a few new skins on the old one and resell it for 60 bucks every year?

----------


## Spacewolf

> Then why do difficulty levels exist?  Why have a legendary difficulty if it's going to have the same terrible AI as the easy one?  Right now the only difference between legendary and easy is that the AI cheats more so it fields larger stacks to run into your grinder.  I understand wanting to make players feel like they're smart and good at the game, but harder difficulties at least should be challenging.  I'm not asking for optimal play.  I'm asking it to be smarter than games that came out 20+ years ago.  I played a campaign last night where the AI kept attacking my fully fortified town with stacks of 3 units every turn.  They don't even make it past the gate.  They just run forward and then run away.  Every turn.  I can't auto-calc it though because the auto calc is so bad it thinks I should take "medium losses" despite them literally not even reaching my units, so every time I end turn I have to go through 2 loading screens and several minutes of the AI running forward and dying to towers before it runs away just to repeat with new units the next turn.  It made me abandon the campaign.
> 
> There are plenty of games where I want to turn my brain off and smash things.  *Grand strategy* games are not one of those niches.  I would expect most people who enjoy the genre to agree with me, although I obviously can't speak for anyone but myself.  In Total War it's so bad that it's not even turning your brain off.  You have to intentionally play poorly and implement bad strategies to give the AI a chance.  It's like a version of chess except instead of trying to out-position each other both players just mash their pieces into each other and see who has more standing at the end.  If that's satisfying to you then great, but it's not what I expect when I buy a chess board.  
> 
> You're right though.  All of my ramblings are about what I think a strategy game should try to provide.  What they're actually intending to provide is all the spectacle of the ocean with the depth of a puddle.  I suppose it must be working for them given that players keep buying their "new' game every year.  I shouldn't be surprised given the success of similar franchises like Fifa or Madden.  Why bother making a game when you can just slap a few new skins on the old one and resell it for 60 bucks every year?


AI is definitely the biggest issue in TW games these days, in some ways it feels worse than it did back in Rome 1. They do keep adding things to make it look better but most of the workings are still from that generation and the things getting added just try to hide that fact. Though the issue with them attacking your city is more of an issue of how the game calculates auto battle results, the results are always skewed towards certain stats for example armour which is why AI dwarves usually do well. So in that case what the AI is doing makes sense because it can only really go off the auto resolve result though there should probably be some sort of flag that gets activated after afew attacks to say something is wrong so add more units. 

The campaign AI does generally seem to be better since it has less to deal with, it'll try to pull your armies out of position to kite them around, armies with access to underway will use it to flank you, they recognise when your armies are out of position to declare war obviously it cheats like a bastard but no 4x AI doesn't cheat. It's the battle AI that really needs the overhaul.

----------


## Resileaf

Making an AI in a game with so many moving pieces is incredibly difficult and I think people don't appreciate that enough. With every faction having completely different units, completely different playstyles, completely different possible strategies, completely different spells, completely different counters, completely different lords and heroes, all of this with units that are composed of around a hundred different entities that have to move in blocks, on complex battlefields with various terrain types, all of this with the limitations of what a computer 'sees'... It's just way more complicated than people give it credit for.

It's impossible to make a computer act like a player. Players act on what they see on their screen, with limitations on what they're able to do at a given time (can't control two units and tell them to do different things at the same time, for example) while a computer doesn't even see anything, it has no visual references. A computer can only be programmed to react to events in basic ways rather than make complex strategies. Besides, it's not like the AI can learn through playing. Over time, you will always become better than the AI because you will learn how it works and what strategies it has difficulty countering.

You compared this to chess, but chess is incredibly simple to program for. Chess is 64 squares, 32 pieces, limited, specific movements unique to each piece. A computer can know every move in the game tens of steps ahead and plan ahead for it. Total War is not comparable to chess in the least.

As an aside, no one who cheeses or exploits an AI has a right to complain about how bad it is.

----------


## zlefin

Technically speaking, it'd be quite feasible to make a good ai for the total war games;  I've looked a fair bit at game ai's.  The real problem is that companies simply choose not to invest that much into making the ai that good, because doing so doesn't help their revenue much.  People like to win;  and the number of people who like a true challenge, or an adaptable challenge that improves with them, are fairly scarce.  And even when they do exist, it's not like you can get a lot of extra money out of them.

A computer can certainly make extremely complex strategies, if it's designed to do so (or capable of learning).  Most simply aren't.

----------


## warty goblin

The goal of game AI isn't to be good at the game, win, or even really present a challenge, it's to be enjoyable for the player to beat up. Most players don't finish most games, don't want to lose*, and play on Normal, spending lots of cash on better AI that only the hardcore who have played every game in the series for like 200+ hours will benefit from is probably a bad investment. 

It's also a computationally expensive one. If the selling point of your game is big gorgeous armies hammering at each other, you probably don't want to skimp on graphical fidelity or army size to get the CPU time back for better AI.

Or looked at very cynically, about 100% of people who complain about AI bought and played the game. The game was therefore good enough. If they played for like 50 hours, I do t even think it's cynical to say the game was good enough. Games are illusions, state at them long and hard enough and the wheels come off.


*If they wanted a game they lost a lot, they'd be playing MP.

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## Resileaf

Well it's not like the series has only ever had bad AI. The AI in Shogun 2 was considered to be pretty solid and that was thanks to the lack of unit diversity making it much easier for it to formulate strategies, develop counters and react to battlefield changes.

Also it was a huge fan of camping hills.

----------


## Zombimode

> You're right though.  All of my ramblings are about what I think a strategy game should try to provide.  What they're actually intending to provide is all the spectacle of the ocean with the depth of a puddle.  I suppose it must be working for them given that players keep buying their "new' game every year.  I shouldn't be surprised given the success of similar franchises like Fifa or Madden.  Why bother making a game when you can just slap a few new skins on the old one and resell it for 60 bucks every year?


I understand your frustration but I think you're vastly underselling the ammount of effort each Total War title represents, _especially_ the Warhammer titles.

Another point regarding challenge: What you call "intentionally playing poorly and implementing bad strategies" is in the perspective of other players "building a themed army", "making loreful choices", "intentionally ignoring exploits/cheese options" and "playing to match the desired aesthetic".
Under those "constrains" the moment-to-moment challenge actually increases.

And there is, generally speaking, a negative effect of higher levels of dificulty: that they may narrow down the possible avenues for success. Especially in a high variety environment like Warhammer Total War with hundreds of vastly different units, magic, lords, factions etc. etc.
The more difficult the game gets, the more the players is persuaded to pick the most optimal path to success.

Now, don't get me wrong: I get that none of my points will make you enjoy the game more. But maybe they will help you understand why some (many) players like the games how they are. And that it doesn't have anything to do with those players being dumb or incompetent  :Small Smile:

----------


## Rodin

> AI is definitely the biggest issue in TW games these days, in some ways it feels worse than it did back in Rome 1. They do keep adding things to make it look better but most of the workings are still from that generation and the things getting added just try to hide that fact. Though the issue with them attacking your city is more of an issue of how the game calculates auto battle results, the results are always skewed towards certain stats for example armour which is why AI dwarves usually do well. So in that case what the AI is doing makes sense because it can only really go off the auto resolve result though there should probably be some sort of flag that gets activated after afew attacks to say something is wrong so add more units. 
> 
> The campaign AI does generally seem to be better since it has less to deal with, it'll try to pull your armies out of position to kite them around, armies with access to underway will use it to flank you, they recognise when your armies are out of position to declare war obviously it cheats like a bastard but no 4x AI doesn't cheat. It's the battle AI that really needs the overhaul.


The auto battle for sieges being off is something I first noticed in Rome 1.  If you take charge of a siege you are going to lose a significant portion of your army to the invulnerable arrow towers.  It's an inevitable part of sieging that you have to put up with, and it made siegin have some _stupid_ strategies.  But no matter how you played you were going to lose a big chunk to attrition.  No way around it.

The auto-battle didn't take that into account.  It just looked at the two armies, slammed a force multiplier down on the besieged side, and then ran the auto-battle results.  It bore no resemblance to what would actually happen if you took charge.  A large army would crush a small one with no casualties, because the force multiplier wasn't enough to overcome the lopsided auto-battle.  It was worse if you were defending, because the AI was stupid.  It would stand in range of your arrow towers and take far more casualties than you would.  And if you auto-battled those losses wouldn't occur.

It made it so that auto-battle for sieges was non-viable.  You HAD to fight those battles no matter how lopsided they were, because you would lose battles you would easily win and get crushed in battles you would lose but inflict horrific casualties on the enemy army that made taking the city back easier.

They may have improved on the auto-battles in later games, but it was a sign for me for how slap-dash the process was for CA.

----------


## Resileaf

Auto-resolve is not the point of the game though? Like, it's basically there to not make you have to go through every little skirmish that you would crush the opponent in, not replace every battle. Auto-resolving was never going to be a complete recreation of a given battle, that would be pointless use of processing power, especially because all AIs use auto-resolve in their battles on their turns, so anything too complicated would result in longer turn times.

----------


## Rodin

> Auto-resolve is not the point of the game though? Like, it's basically there to not make you have to go through every little skirmish that you would crush the opponent in, not replace every battle. Auto-resolving was never going to be a complete recreation of a given battle, that would be pointless use of processing power, especially because all AIs use auto-resolve in their battles on their turns, so anything too complicated would result in longer turn times.


Auto-resolve is meant to be a reasonable simulation of the battle given that you are not there using your superior human brain to direct things.

A basic scenario would be 1000 troops vs 1000 troops of equal power.  Stick that into an auto-battle and the result is a toss-up.  Put a human in charge and the human wins comfortably, because they're smarter than the AI.  

And if that's what the TW auto-resolve was doing that would be fine.  In the case of field battles it generally was.  An army with a distinct advantage would win over a weaker army, with more casualties than you would expect if you were commanding it.

_That's not what auto-resolve was doing in the case of sieges._  1000 troops vs 100 troops in a city is a certain victory for the 1000 troops.  However, if you put the superior human brain in charge they would lose 200 troops by sheer inevitability from the invulnerable arrow towers whittling down your army as you marched them up to the walls, lost men on ladders, and then lost a decent chunk fighting on the walls with arrows raining down on them.

But if you do an auto-resolve?  The computer would lose 20-30 troops.  Because those arrows didn't exist, and it just mathed out the victory for 1000 v 100 with a slight bonus for the defenders.  It punished the human player for taking control in the case of certain victory and punished the human player for _not_ taking control even though victory was impossible and you just wanted to lose the city and re-take it some turns later with your reinforcements.

In short, the auto-resolve wasn't accurate.  It wasn't even _close_.  They didn't need to do a complete simulated re-creation of the battle.  They needed to play simulated AI vs AI battles in the development stages and come up with a better formula that properly represented what a realistic result would be given the battle system that existed.


Edit:

Latest Elden ring weirdness:  A trapped loot in Liurnia that's supposed to summon a half dozen phantasmal soldiers around you.  One of those soldiers was an elder dragon.  Not the first time I've been yeeted off a cliff in a Souls game, but "fell because an invisible phantom dragon landed on my head" is a definite first.   :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Resileaf

No, auto-resolve is most definitely not a simulation of the battle. It's just the game hitting the numbers together. It was never anything else and it was never intended to be anything else. A simulation of a battle would take much longer to go through because it would have to fake-load a battle map, fake-place all troops, fake-move and fake-fight them. Maybe not that much of an issue for a single battle, but over the entirety of the map? In Immortal Empires, it would take forever for the computer to go through those simulations every turn. 

In any case, you should be happy that you get the foil the game's expectations by winning what seems to be a one-sided battle by taking advantage of your superior human brain to develop strategies that will save your grossly outnumbered garrison.

By the way arrow towers aren't invulnerable, they can be destroyed by siege weapons.

----------


## Rodin

> No, auto-resolve is most definitely not a simulation of the battle. It's just the game hitting the numbers together. It was never anything else and it was never intended to be anything else. A simulation of a battle would take much longer to go through because it would have to fake-load a battle map, fake-place all troops, fake-move and fake-fight them. Maybe not that much of an issue for a single battle, but over the entirety of the map? In Immortal Empires, it would take forever for the computer to go through those simulations every turn. 
> 
> In any case, you should be happy that you get the foil the game's expectations by winning what seems to be a one-sided battle by taking advantage of your superior human brain to develop strategies that will save your grossly outnumbered garrison.
> 
> By the way arrow towers aren't invulnerable, they can be destroyed by siege weapons.


I never once said it was anything other than the game mashing numbers together.

I said it was the game mashing numbers together BADLY.

And doing so in a way that makes auto-resolving a BETTER result than actually playing the game in many situations.  If you think that's what CA intended, well....

----------


## Resileaf

Ugh, I meant to say "It's not meant to be a simulation" and not "It's not a simulation".

In any case, yes, I do believe that this is what CA intended, because it's a time-saving feature more than a gameplay feature.

----------


## Anteros

> AI is definitely the biggest issue in TW games these days, in some ways it feels worse than it did back in Rome 1. They do keep adding things to make it look better but most of the workings are still from that generation and the things getting added just try to hide that fact. Though the issue with them attacking your city is more of an issue of how the game calculates auto battle results, the results are always skewed towards certain stats for example armour which is why AI dwarves usually do well. So in that case what the AI is doing makes sense because it can only really go off the auto resolve result though there should probably be some sort of flag that gets activated after afew attacks to say something is wrong so add more units. 
> 
> The campaign AI does generally seem to be better since it has less to deal with, it'll try to pull your armies out of position to kite them around, armies with access to underway will use it to flank you, they recognise when your armies are out of position to declare war obviously it cheats like a bastard but no 4x AI doesn't cheat. It's the battle AI that really needs the overhaul.


I mean...then fix the auto resolve?  I don't get how "well the auto resolve we made is terrible and the AI is based on that so of course it's also terrible" is a valid excuse at all.  




> Or looked at very cynically, about 100% of people who complain about AI bought and played the game. The game was therefore good enough. If they played for like 50 hours, I do t even think it's cynical to say the game was good enough. Games are illusions, state at them long and hard enough and the wheels come off.


That might be true for many games, but Total War releases so frequently that I've absolutely skipped several of their titles because I know exactly what they're offering.  Or refunded ones that I've tentatively tried to see if they've improved at all.  




> I understand your frustration but I think you're vastly underselling the ammount of effort each Total War title represents, _especially_ the Warhammer titles.
> 
> Another point regarding challenge: What you call "intentionally playing poorly and implementing bad strategies" is in the perspective of other players "building a themed army", "making loreful choices", "intentionally ignoring exploits/cheese options" and "playing to match the desired aesthetic".
> Under those "constrains" the moment-to-moment challenge actually increases.
> 
> And there is, generally speaking, a negative effect of higher levels of dificulty: that they may narrow down the possible avenues for success. Especially in a high variety environment like Warhammer Total War with hundreds of vastly different units, magic, lords, factions etc. etc.
> The more difficult the game gets, the more the players is persuaded to pick the most optimal path to success.
> 
> Now, don't get me wrong: I get that none of my points will make you enjoy the game more. But maybe they will help you understand why some (many) players like the games how they are. And that it doesn't have anything to do with those players being dumb or incompetent


It doesn't have to be cheese.  The AI can't even handle simple concepts like flanking.  It should be relatively simple to program it to designate a unit of pikes or whatever to protect their ranged units.  They simply choose not to do so.  I also think people vastly overstate how different most of the civs play from each other.  They're mostly just reskins of the same units with slightly different stats.  For the most part every race just has the basic mix of cavalry units, ranged units, and a few meat shield units.  The fact that they're all different colors doesn't wildly change the way they play.  At least not by the AI.  It plays them all exactly the same.  I'm sure a human player can do lots of fun and unique things with different races, but the AI does none of it.




> Auto-resolve is not the point of the game though? Like, it's basically there to not make you have to go through every little skirmish that you would crush the opponent in, not replace every battle. Auto-resolving was never going to be a complete recreation of a given battle, that would be pointless use of processing power, especially because all AIs use auto-resolve in their battles on their turns, so anything too complicated would result in longer turn times.


That's not a valid point though.  It's not uncommon for the AI to throw something like 10+ battles at you in a single turn late-game.  These battles are unlosable to a human, but the auto-calc will lose every single one, or at least lose enough units that it loses the next one.  You have to play them every turn, and it's a massive, repetitive, unfun, time sink.  The auto-resolve is absolutely a massive integral part of the game, and the fact that it's so bad is a glaring problem.

----------


## Mechalich

> That's not a valid point though.  It's not uncommon for the AI to throw something like 10+ battles at you in a single turn late-game.  These battles are unlosable to a human, but the auto-calc will lose every single one, or at least lose enough units that it loses the next one.  You have to play them every turn, and it's a massive, repetitive, unfun, time sink.  The auto-resolve is absolutely a massive integral part of the game, and the fact that it's so bad is a glaring problem.


Auto-resolve has been a problem for the TW series going all the way back to Shogun 1 - where it was essentially impossible to win an auto-resolve that required attacking across a river even if you had a 30 to 1 advantage. They've never fixed and its pretty clear they're never going to. Truthfully the series has over time moved further and further away from the 'grand strategy' setup and more into a just being a battle simulator.

----------


## warty goblin

I like the more recent Age of Wonders auto-resolve, where if you don't like the result, you can still manually fight the battle. It helps that the auto-resolve generally feels about right in those games, and occasionally gets better results than I can. If I have a really super-synergized army and use maximum cheese tactics I still outperform it, but for just getting a pretty good representation of a sort of average battle, it does fine. And even in a lot of cases where I would get substantially better results, the outcome of the battle is of limited interest and frankly not worth the time just to keep like 1 stack of weenie dudes alive. 

Really, what all these hybrid strategy/tactics games need is a way to cut down on the number of battles per campaign. Maybe only let the player fight the ones with a leader/hero involved, or have some sort of sliding scale where as the size of armies increases, battles that involve very small forces are just auto-resolved automatically.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Well SR:HK, once it gets going,, really has that 'just one more run' quality. So here I am at 2am the second night in a row, having played for almost six hours. I've completed all the optional runs and have started the end game.

I'm very glad to be playing a mage, Gobbet is a great character but she's the second crew shaman in a row, whereas going Street Samurai or Adept would require leaving Duncan or Gaichu off the team. As it is I've loaded myself with Heal Wound, Strip Armour, and s many combat spells as I can get my hands on. At 9 Willpower/Spellcasting I feel ready to take on the hordes of enemies! 

So now it's time for two orks to attack their grandmother. This game didn't quite go where I expected (not helped by the implication that while Duncan didn't take Raymond's surname his sister did, blame my lack of imagination).

Looking back on Dragonfall and Hong Kong, I think they work because the developers just took functional systems and used them to prop up the themes and story of the trilogy. The combat is a functional X-COM clone, the dialogue checks are just thresholds, and character building is just a streamlined version of 3e. There's nothing really innovative or fexemplary except for the writing, which really does carry the games. The linearity itself is honestly a plus, I don't go into missions worried I haven't met the developer intended bumming about crafting tripwires quota. There's even the little touches of Shadowrun lore like one character being an elf poseur.

What I'm saying is that I really want Shadowrun Returns 4. Maybe I'll play Dead Man's Switch after this

----------


## Anteros

> Well SR:HK, once it gets going,, really has that 'just one more run' quality. So here I am at 2am the second night in a row, having played for almost six hours. I've completed all the optional runs and have started the end game.
> 
> I'm very glad to be playing a mage, Gobbet is a great character but she's the second crew shaman in a row, whereas going Street Samurai or Adept would require leaving Duncan or Gaichu off the team. As it is I've loaded myself with Heal Wound, Strip Armour, and s many combat spells as I can get my hands on. At 9 Willpower/Spellcasting I feel ready to take on the hordes of enemies! 
> 
> So now it's time for two orks to attack their grandmother. This game didn't quite go where I expected (not helped by the implication that while Duncan didn't take Raymond's surname his sister did, blame my lack of imagination).
> 
> Looking back on Dragonfall and Hong Kong, I think they work because the developers just took functional systems and used them to prop up the themes and story of the trilogy. The combat is a functional X-COM clone, the dialogue checks are just thresholds, and character building is just a streamlined version of 3e. There's nothing really innovative or fexemplary except for the writing, which really does carry the games. The linearity itself is honestly a plus, I don't go into missions worried I haven't met the developer intended bumming about crafting tripwires quota. There's even the little touches of Shadowrun lore like one character being an elf poseur.
> 
> What I'm saying is that I really want Shadowrun Returns 4. Maybe I'll play Dead Man's Switch after this


There are some excellent fan modules. I'd go so far as to say some of them are better than Dead Man's Switch. Antumbra chronicles or the caldecott caper are both in that category. 

I always mean to try a mage, but sniping is just so satisfying.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> That's not a valid point though.  It's not uncommon for the AI to throw something like 10+ battles at you in a single turn late-game.  These battles are unlosable to a human, but the auto-calc will lose every single one, or at least lose enough units that it loses the next one.  You have to play them every turn, and it's a massive, repetitive, unfun, time sink.  The auto-resolve is absolutely a massive integral part of the game, and the fact that it's so bad is a glaring problem.


That's like _every_ autoresolve system though. They can't account for the impact of human skill, all they can do is math out the armies you feed into them.

It's definitely true that autoresolve in TW: Warhammer ignores certain things that it should account for (magic and aura effects especially), and the effect of defences in settlement battles are one of those things. 

I'm not terribly worked up about the defences thing though, (In fact some settlements have deliberately undervalued defensive modifiers, the gate settlements in the Empire, to make the AI attack them instead of using underway to bypass them rendering them useless.) because in 90% of cases the difference in casualties will just be wiped out by replenishment.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> There are some excellent fan modules. I'd go so far as to say some of them are better than Dead Man's Switch. Antumbra chronicles or the caldecott caper are both in that category. 
> 
> I always mean to try a mage, but sniping is just so satisfying.


Yeah, and I might try making my own scenarios. I guess it's at least partially that an official campaign would guarantee a certain baseline. I'll certainly try out your suggestions.

I would have gone Street Sam, but I was already planning to bring Duncan, who's a bit suboptimal in the role but makes up for it with 4/5 of his non-lethal tree (and the one that is questionable is right next to a boost to Full Auto fire, so I nabbed that instead). Unlike deckers going mage/shaman doesn't shake up gameplay much, mostly it unlocks buff/debuff spells and puts your abilities on cooldowns.

Yeah combat spells are fun, but I've got the most use out of those that drain AP (particularly the lightning spells). Both Duncan and Gaichu have abilities which benefit from stunning opponents, and spells are one of the better ways to do it

----------


## Form

> Looking back on Dragonfall and Hong Kong, I think they work because the developers just took functional systems and used them to prop up the themes and story of the trilogy. The combat is a functional X-COM clone, the dialogue checks are just thresholds, and character building is just a streamlined version of 3e. There's nothing really innovative or fexemplary except for the writing, which really does carry the games. The linearity itself is honestly a plus, I don't go into missions worried I haven't met the developer intended bumming about crafting tripwires quota. There's even the little touches of Shadowrun lore like one character being an elf poseur.
> 
> What I'm saying is that I really want Shadowrun Returns 4. Maybe I'll play Dead Man's Switch after this


Yeah, it really is the excellent writing and atmosphere that carry those games. I'm glad they didn't try to make the gameplay as complicated as X-COM and kept things relatively simple, because the last thing I want to do is constantly feel the need to save scum because my turn based tactical skills aren't good enough. It's the story that draws me in and keeps me going.




> There are some excellent fan modules. I'd go so far as to say some of them are better than Dead Man's Switch. Antumbra chronicles or the caldecott caper are both in that category.


If I were to recommend the shadowrun games to new players, I'd recommend them to start with Dead Man's Switch because that's worst of the three and that way they won't feel like they're downgrading by moving on to the other games. By worst I do not mean that Dead Man's Switch is bad (it isn't!), but that the Dragonfall and Hong Kong are simply even better by a significant margin in my opinion. That's where the shadowrun games truly shine.

Also, I found it a little funny that when you break into computer systems in Shadowrun you often don't do so by engaging in Hollywood hacking, but because someone wrote down their password on a post-it somewhere. Or because a co-worker is trying to be helpful and just gives a password to someone else. Or because someone just used their birthday, or feels like password requirements don't apply to them or because someone didn't bother to reset a default password. No fancy technobabble, just some social engineering and bad password hygiene.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Yeah, it really is the excellent writing and atmosphere that carry those games. I'm glad they didn't try to make the gameplay as complicated as X-COM and kept things relatively simple, because the last thing I want to do is constantly feel the need to save scum because my turn based tactical skills aren't good enough. It's the story that draws me in and keeps me going.


Honestly it can get to near X-COM levels, juggling a whole host of abilities and spells. But you don't have to engage in that, it's entirely viable to build up your combat skill to the point you've got 99% hit odds and use ordinary attacks. I played Dragonfall as an elf Street Sam with cybernetic legs and a fully automatic rifle, took down more enemies than the rest of the team combined. However I admit that unlike X-COM I ever felt like I was in the wrong bit of cover l.

The Matrix is another story. But rule one of Shadowrun is 'the Matrix causes gameplay problems'.

[QUOTE]If I were to recommend the shadowrun games to new players, I'd recommend them to start with Dead Man's Switch because that's worst of the three and that way they won't feel like they're downgrading by moving on to the other games. By worst I do not mean that Dead Man's Switch is bad (it isn't!), but that the Dragonfall and Hong Kong are simply even better by a significant margin in my opinion. That's where the shadowrun games truly shine.[QUOTE]

Honestly I think what Dead Man's Switch needs is a crew. On my first attempt I honestly thought that Coyote was going to be the first member of a proper team.




> Also, I found it a little funny that when you break into computer systems in Shadowrun you often don't do so by engaging in Hollywood hacking, but because someone wrote down their password on a post-it somewhere. Or because a co-worker is trying to be helpful and just gives a password to someone else. Or because someone just used their birthday, or feels like password requirements don't apply to them or because someone didn't bother to reset a default password. No fancy technobabble, just some social engineering and bad password hygiene.


To be fair there's a good amount of Hollywood hacking, there's just also a lot of more grounded password scrounging. Honestly I wouldn't mind Shadowrun dropping the Matrix minigame entirely, for both tabletop and computer game versions.

Sadly the Matrix is probably too iconic.

----------


## Cespenar

> Really, what all these hybrid strategy/tactics games need is a way to cut down on the number of battles per campaign. Maybe only let the player fight the ones with a leader/hero involved, or have some sort of sliding scale where as the size of armies increases, battles that involve very small forces are just auto-resolved automatically.


I agree, and although you can still do that in your own with auto-resolve in most games, actually taking away the option to manual in some cases may ironically help people. Because sometimes, even you don't want to manual, you look at the auto-resolve and go "man, I could do it without those losses" and play it yourself anyway (but with added irritation). 

Taking away the option of manual-ing some battles may end up with less irritation for some people, I'd think.

I personally even sometimes do Close Defeat kinda auto-resolves in TW games if I can afford it. Those campaigns are way too long.

----------


## Erloas

I wouldn't say X-COMs tactical gameplay is especially complicated, it is just exceptionally brutal.  One or two bad rolls is enough to get even a veteran character killed.  And as you get later in the game it becomes harder and harder to train up replacements.  So you are almost forced to save and reload regularly if you want to complete the game.

I did like that Shadowrun games were story driven rather than more open world.  The games were long enough and I don't think they would have been improved by a lot more "side jobs." 


I think the biggest issue with Dead Man Switch was that it was a smaller team because it was a kickstarter and "unproven" game design and the whole system had to be built for the first game, while the latter games got to focus on expanding and polishing gameplay and story.  The games definitely improve with expanded support characters, but those characters take a lot more work to flesh them out, and I just don't think that was in the cards for the first game.

I think the matrix parts are vital to the setting, so much of the setting is based on that side of things that leaving it directly out of the games doesn't make any sense.  But it does also break up gameplay.  The concurrence of hacking and combat does put more urgency into both sides of it.  I think there just needs to be more done to explain how/why things work the way they do in the matrix because we as players don't have much to go on as to what is going on.

----------


## warty goblin

> I agree, and although you can still do that in your own with auto-resolve in most games, actually taking away the option to manual in some cases may ironically help people. Because sometimes, even you don't want to manual, you look at the auto-resolve and go "man, I could do it without those losses" and play it yourself anyway (but with added irritation). 
> 
> Taking away the option of manual-ing some battles may end up with less irritation for some people, I'd think.
> 
> I personally even sometimes do Close Defeat kinda auto-resolves in TW games if I can afford it. Those campaigns are way too long.


Limiting the ability of the player to micro stuff is something I wish more strategy games would explore, just in general. A lot of focus lately has gone into better automation, which is great as far as it goes, but tends to leave you auditing the AI a lot, which is still just dull spreadsheet work. If my intervention has costs or limits beyond my tolerance for micro fiddling, I'm saved all of the tedium and my role shifts from omnipotent omniscient God being choosing not only strategy and research but who gets the AP ammunition or whatever into a finite entity interacting with independent agents. It's a lot more interesting. 

This is I think the real genius behind Majesty's design. It's not just that paying heroes to do stuff is both on point and hilarious, it's that your gold supply is a mana bar for intervening in the simulation. Because of the way the economy works, you get most of your bounty back for quest flags, but it takes time, and the simulation is rich enough that it can also just get stolen by ratmen. So you have to weigh the opportunity cost of every action because you have a set amount of them in any given time period, and if you set up your kingdom well, they regenerate faster. This is entirely a matter of player skill too, there's no +5% to gold generation skill you research.

----------


## zlefin

Hearthstone had a neat update to battle grounds;  there's now for a time quests you do in game to get buffs; at the 4th round you discover a quest, there's quite a mix of them.  I'm not sure how much it shakes things up, but many of the buffs are quite significant, so it surely does have a fair bit of effect and adds some variety, as some rewards more heavily favor building certain mechanics.  There's also a bunch of balance changes, a couple new heroes, some units added/removed/adjusted.  They also added a reward line for playing like there is for regular hearthstone, it mostly has remotes and skins by the looks of it.


On path of exile; the developers tripled down on the problem changes.  Or at least doubled down on insisting on the path.  They toned down a few of the biggest problems they caused, but left the core problems very intact and significant. Peopl ehave largely accepted it by now, with many people leaving for awhile;  iirc it shows the worst player retention any league has ever had; but not that much worse than their prior worst.  So the forum drama is heavily fading cuz there's not much more to say.

----------


## Anteros

> I agree, and although you can still do that in your own with auto-resolve in most games, actually taking away the option to manual in some cases may ironically help people. Because sometimes, even you don't want to manual, you look at the auto-resolve and go "man, I could do it without those losses" and play it yourself anyway (but with added irritation). 
> 
> Taking away the option of manual-ing some battles may end up with less irritation for some people, I'd think.
> 
> I personally even sometimes do Close Defeat kinda auto-resolves in TW games if I can afford it. Those campaigns are way too long.


Only if they actually fix the auto resolve to not have you losing battles that you should easily win. Making me automatically lose fights I should easily win is certainly not going to lead to less player frustration.  Honestly, a lot of it could be resolved fairly simply. Does the player regularly struggle with battles?  Give them less favorable auto resolve results. Does the player dominate?  More favorable. Easy peasy and also fair.  Or at least consistent. 





> I think the matrix parts are vital to the setting, so much of the setting is based on that side of things that leaving it directly out of the games doesn't make any sense.  But it does also break up gameplay.  The concurrence of hacking and combat does put more urgency into both sides of it.  I think there just needs to be more done to explain how/why things work the way they do in the matrix because we as players don't have much to go on as to what is going on.


My biggest issue with the matrix parts is feeling like you're basically obligated to bring the team's token decker on every mission. Even if you don't like Isabela, you're bringing her or missing out on a ton of content unless your main happens to be a Decker.  No other class has a similar amount of content gated behind bringing them.

----------


## Resileaf

And it is done, the Tyranny of King Washington has been completed, though a little clutch, on August 31st. I was pretty surprised at the difficulty spike, they really made the entire thing as unfriendly as possible. It was an interesting experience, to be sure. I could do all the extras to 100% it before it's gone... But eh, **** it, I'm done with this series for the foreseeable future.

Gotta say though, final boss battles are very much a weakness of this series. I think only Cesare felt suitably like a battle was being fought rather than just going through the motions of using whatever ability was required. 

After an entire month and more of binging, I can finally go back to playing Total War Rome II and Jade Empire.

----------


## Grey Watcher

I've gotten into Songs of Conquest (currently in pre-release).  The first campaign was fun.  The second... major difficulty spike.  Scenario 1 was OK and 2 was fine once I figured out how to approach it properly.  Scenario 3?  Yeouch.  I'm not sure if you're meant to ignore the AI altogether, but some guides talk about beating her by rushing and, well, they have different definitions of rush than I do.  I've heard they're working on implementing an easy difficulty, and if this scenario is emblematic of what's to come, I think I need it.

Still, I am enjoying it over all.  The magic system is surprisingly fun.  Creates a good ebb-and-flow kind of feeling.

----------


## AlanBruce

I recently purchased the newest DLC for Dead by Daylight, Project W, which includes Resident Evil characters. As the new killer, Albert Wesker.

Sadly, his gameplay is incredibly bug ridden. On the PTB, Wesker was a god- dashing at fast speeds. Lunging with his tendril and grabbing survivors from afar he showed promise.

And then the developers decided to cut his hitbox by 50%, which makes his lunge attack a pain to use, since chances are youll hit an object in the terrain, instead of a survivor.

On the plus side, they did release franchise belles Ada & Rebecca as survivors, with interesting and fun new perks.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Well I've run the runs, had every conversation I can find, spent the Karma, avoided anything that looked like a dragon, and now I'm on the final mission.

Hopefully I can get through this with Raymond in one piece.

----------


## The Hellbug

> My biggest issue with the matrix parts is feeling like you're basically obligated to bring the team's token decker on every mission. Even if you don't like Isabela, you're bringing her or missing out on a ton of content unless your main happens to be a Decker.  No other class has a similar amount of content gated behind bringing them.


Definitely a complaint I have as well--add to that that the Matrix sections don't feel particularly strategic or fun.  That said, I though Hong Kong was better about this than Dragonfall.  I rotated through the party much more in it than it's predecessor and I didn't ever really feel hamstringed by lacking Is0bel when she was left at home.  In Dragonfall, Blitz felt like an absolute necessity, but maybe I would have been able to live without if I had just left him at home more often.  Who knows?

----------


## Cespenar

> This is I think the real genius behind Majesty's design. It's not just that paying heroes to do stuff is both on point and hilarious, it's that your gold supply is a mana bar for intervening in the simulation. Because of the way the economy works, you get most of your bounty back for quest flags, but it takes time, and the simulation is rich enough that it can also just get stolen by ratmen. So you have to weigh the opportunity cost of every action because you have a set amount of them in any given time period, and if you set up your kingdom well, they regenerate faster. This is entirely a matter of player skill too, there's no +5% to gold generation skill you research.


Majesty is a masterclass in economy design in games, IMO, but sadly it's long since forgotten. 




> Only if they actually fix the auto resolve to not have you losing battles that you should easily win. Making me automatically lose fights I should easily win is certainly not going to lead to less player frustration.  Honestly, a lot of it could be resolved fairly simply. Does the player regularly struggle with battles?  Give them less favorable auto resolve results. Does the player dominate?  More favorable. Easy peasy and also fair.  Or at least consistent.


Sure, that's every designer's wish, but when players find AI loopholes and abuses and take them as the norm for game difficulty, then the autoresolve system sometimes gets the wrong end of the stick in the blame game, IMO.

----------


## Erloas

Needing to have someone that can hack in Shadowrun doesn't seem like a problem so much as an expectation of the genre.
It's not even just a Shadowrun expectation, I can't think of any story of these sorts of jobs where the team doesn't have a hacker.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Needing to have someone that can hack in Shadowrun doesn't seem like a problem so much as an expectation of the genre.
> It's not even just a Shadowrun expectation, I can't think of any story of these sorts of jobs where the team doesn't have a hacker.


It's not so much as needing a hacker as the fact there's an entire cyberspace minigame for hacking which is not exactly great. Especially as there's other situations where you just use a software exploit if you meet the Decking requirement.

It also has the issue I've seen in several other RPGs of 'never take this one character out of the party'. Normally it's the healer, in Shadowrun it's whoever the designated decker is. Hong Kong especially suffers because money is a lot tighter than the previous two campaigns, without that couple of thousand of nuyen from paydata you'll be a gear upgrade behind.

----------


## warty goblin

> Majesty is a masterclass in economy design in games, IMO, but sadly it's long since forgotten.


One of the things that most strikes me about Majesty is how it isn't super-centered on the player. It really is built around a concept of a dynamic, persistent and living simulation you can intervene in, which is just something you don't see all that much anymore. It's a pity, because as a game design, it offers an entire different set of ways to expand and vary the player experience, compared to the persistent player upgrade route the industry has at this point adopted hook, line, and sinker.

----------


## Rodin

My adventures in the Elden Ring randomizer continue!  

I finally knocked out Malenia by getting a couple tiers higher on my weapons and swapping over to the Godslayer Greatsword.  The weapon art on that sword is a giant flaming slash which absolutely wrecks her.  Stormveil Castle was a doddle after that.  

Rennala had retired to Carian Manor, and was conveniently holding the Glinstone Academy Key.  Most appropriate randomization yet!  

The next wall was the Red Wolf of Radagon room.  It's not a big room to start with.  It's an absolutely _tiny_ room when you've got Radahn in there.  I could get him into his second phase, but then comes the question:

How do you dodge a meteor that comes through the wall 5 feet away from you?

I found the solution - a Cracked Tear I didn't even know existed that heals all elemental damage for a few seconds.  Chug that and you're immune to the fireball.  

Rennala's room is guarded by Morgott.  I tried him a couple times and just...no.  He's not sufficiently nerfed by the scaling, and if it was *only* him I'd have a slim chance.  But there's a second boss hidden behind him, and the options are almost universally bad.

The cave behind the Great Lift is guarded by Commander Niall, and I'm not even able to take his backup dancers.  I think it's finally time to venture into Caelid, because I am being gated unbelievably hard by the level of my weapons at the moment.  Rank 4 weaponry just isn't cutting it against all these lategame bosses.

----------


## Anteros

> Needing to have someone that can hack in Shadowrun doesn't seem like a problem so much as an expectation of the genre.
> It's not even just a Shadowrun expectation, I can't think of any story of these sorts of jobs where the team doesn't have a hacker.


It's not needing a hacker that's the problem. It's being forced to bring a certain character on every mission even if you don't like them. If they had more character variety or let you customize your own team it would be fine.




> Sure, that's every designer's wish, but when players find AI loopholes and abuses and take them as the norm for game difficulty, then the autoresolve system sometimes gets the wrong end of the stick in the blame game, IMO.


There's a real big middle ground between finding loopholes to abuse the ai and the brain dead ai that totalwar uses. Like, the size of the pacific.  {Scrubbed} No one is asking for a perfect ai that can adapt to any situation. I'm asking for bare minimum competency. If I'm playing a game on legendary difficulty it shouldn't be using worse tactics than a 5 year old child.

----------


## Quizatzhaderac

Playing dragon quest builders one.

For the most part I like it and find it strikes a nice balance between the open world style "do whatever you want, I don't care" and the traditional JRPG style "do A, B, C, and D in that order. in this manner."

My biggest complaint is that you lose some But not all) recipes between chapters. I get that these are non-essential recipies and it's likely the dev's goal to force you to do thing new ways, but it feels arbitrary.




> There's a real big middle ground between finding loopholes to abuse the ai and the brain dead ai that totalwar uses.


I don't really know first hand, but I'm of the understanding that high level play in total war is largely defined by bugs/incomplete features.

Like, if they designed a fancy AI to use a checkerboard formation, then implemented the ability to order your units to properly maneuver through a gap, then the checkerboard tactics would be useless and so would that fancy AI.

However, I think you're right, in-so-far as they shouldn't claim to have such high level difficulties if they can't make a better AI.

----------


## Cespenar

> One of the things that most strikes me about Majesty is how it isn't super-centered on the player. It really is built around a concept of a dynamic, persistent and living simulation you can intervene in, which is just something you don't see all that much anymore. It's a pity, because as a game design, it offers an entire different set of ways to expand and vary the player experience, compared to the persistent player upgrade route the industry has at this point adopted hook, line, and sinker.


Very true. I mean, obviously, player upgrades lead to quicker gratification leads to better sales (statistically), or something, but you'd expect at least a few stragglers to try to copy Majesty.




> There's a real big middle ground between finding loopholes to abuse the ai and the brain dead ai that totalwar uses. Like, the size of the pacific. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote} No one is asking for a perfect ai that can adapt to any situation. I'm asking for bare minimum competency. If I'm playing a game on legendary difficulty it shouldn't be using worse tactics than a 5 year old child.


Eh. I don't recall the AI intricacies of which you speak, so I'm not gonna poke further. Though I suspect legendary difficulty wouldn't really change the AI, as in 99% of the games out there.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Moved onto Shadows of Hong Kong after getting the good ending. Honestly the game needed an epilogue, because the entire 'losing your SINs' plotline from early on needed some closure.

Also considering what character I'll use for a Deaf Man's Switch run. I'm planning on going troll, but I'm not sure if I want to go Street Sam or Adept. I'll be using melee either way because trolls do not get Quickness, but both are tempting options

----------


## tonberrian

> Moved onto Shadows of Hong Kong after getting the good ending. Honestly the game needed an epilogue, because the entire 'losing your SINs' plotline from early on needed some closure.
> 
> Also considering what character I'll use for a Deaf Man's Switch run. I'm planning on going troll, but I'm not sure if I want to go Street Sam or Adept. I'll be using melee either way because trolls do not get Quickness, but both are tempting options


Unfortunately Dead Man's Switch has an extended section where you have to use guns. It really hosed down my decker/rigger build there.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Unfortunately Dead Man's Switch has an extended section where you have to use guns. It really hosed down my decker/rigger build there.


That sucks. I mean trolls can do okay with guns, but it still sucks. As a race they're just dedicated to being CQC monsters with potential mage or adept powers.

Plus decker/rigger is one of the logical builds in the game, alongside the mystic adept combination (although I believe you end up hurting for spellbook space). It sucks that the first campaign isn't friendly to all character types.

I'll check the wiki and see which skill has the gun with the biggest strength requirement. I know in Dragonfall and Hong Kong they're rifles, but maybe in Dead Man's Switch there's a big ****off shotgun or something.

----------


## Erloas

Some things might change if you're playing the newer version of it.  There are a lot of the cool things that I just don't think they had in the original game because they just didn't have the scope for it.  But I know they added a Dead Man's Switch campaign in one of the latter games with the new engine.  I don't know if they changed availability of things when they made that version though, and I'm not sure which version you're playing.

I don't remember the start of the game being all that difficult though, so I imagine any class will get through the start just fine, you just won't see all of your options until you get a bit farther into the game, rather than having them right out of the gate.

----------


## Anteros

Pretty sure there's a modded version of Dead Man's Switch that's supposed to expand on it and fix some of the major issues.  I can't personally attest to the quality though.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Some things might change if you're playing the newer version of it.  There are a lot of the cool things that I just don't think they had in the original game because they just didn't have the scope for it.  But I know they added a Dead Man's Switch campaign in one of the latter games with the new engine.  I don't know if they changed availability of things when they made that version though, and I'm not sure which version you're playing.
> 
> I don't remember the start of the game being all that difficult though, so I imagine any class will get through the start just fine, you just won't see all of your options until you get a bit farther into the game, rather than having them right out of the gate.


I own all three games, but I'll probably play the newer version. Dragonfall really improved the armour mechanics.

Anyway, did the River's Den run, and I thought I'd have a bit of fun and splash 5000 nuyen on a Vindicator to equip Duncan with. Sadly his hit rate drops in half while using it, which combined with it's 2AP reload means it's just not worth using over his rifle. It's a massive shame.

----------


## Anteros

Duncan just makes a really poor street sam in general.  Sub par stats and lack of the most important body modifications.  Most of the companions are pretty poorly optimized though, but it's especially glaring with the sams if you've played as one with your MC before.

----------


## Rodin

> Pretty sure there's a modded version of Dead Man's Switch that's supposed to expand on it and fix some of the major issues.  I can't personally attest to the quality though.


I played some of the modded version.  They did a good job moving it into the new engine and restoring cut content.  I should go back and finish (or maybe restart) that playthrough.

Elden Ring Rando has taken me a while, but I'm finally reaching the "I am OP" phase that every Rando run hits.  A lucky run of smithing stones got my weapon nearly maxed out so I should be able to take on just about anything now.

With that in mind I went into the Radahn fight expecting a nice easy battle.  Out of the remaining bosses, anyone but Elden Beast would be a piece of cake with a ceaseless wave of NPCs to summon.  I got Mogh, and was delighted.  I watch a lot of AI vs AI boss battles, and Mogh is a chump.  I've never struggled with him in a real playthrough either, which is kind of sad considering he's supposed to be the same tier as Malenia.  

That dude kicked my ass.  He kicked Blaidd's ass, Alexander's ass, Tragoth's...he flattened everybody.  You only ever fight him in small arenas so it's not obvious, but he is pretty speedy when he wants to be and his second phase gives him wings that he makes good use of.  I finally managed to dogpile him with all the NPCs but to do so I had to tank and bait his attacks the entire fight to keep my team safe.

Mogh still isn't a patch on Malenia, but I've got a lot more respect for the guy than I used to.  It's not his fault his stats can't keep up with endgame OPness.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Duncan just makes a really poor street sam in general.  Sub par stats and lack of the most important body modifications.  Most of the companions are pretty poorly optimized though, but it's especially glaring with the sams if you've played as one with your MC before.


Oh yeah. I really get the feeling that you're intended to go Street Sam on the PC, both Duncan and Eiger feel like they're supposed to be support rather than your main damage dealer. Glory and Gaichu feel better, but also partially there to show you that yes, melee is viable for non-adepts.

Although giving Duncan the Panther Assault Cannon works wonders.

Is0bel also has significant issues, but that's mainly her mid-range deck coming along so late I didn't notice the upgrade. And everybody's a point or two behind where they should be in skills..

So I'll likely go with a shotgun troll build when I start DMS. I'll cap out at 8 but that leaves some extra Karma for MOAR BODY.

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## Anteros

I haven't tried on on Dead Man's Switch.  I know Sam REALLY shines in Hong Kong due to how overpowered some of the modifications are.

----------


## Zombimode

Finished the Vilitch the Curseling campaign on the Realms of Chaos map.

Some thoughts about Warriors of Chaos in general and Tzeentch in particular:
- Tzeentch warriors are _tanky_ - high armor, protoss shields, and technology and skill bonuses tuned towards defense* and being Chaos Warriors they still packed a punch. It is not often in TWWH that your melee infantry actually carries the battle but it definitely applies here.
- the feeling of commanding the Sorcerous Host of Tzeentch really comes across - at least from a flavour standpoint Vilitch and his Puppets of Misrule have really nailed it.
- Vilitich is a great lord. Very good caster, pretty decent melee warrior - a great hybrid. His unique skills are also pretty fun. My only complaint would be that he is quite the 4th wall breaker. Although if anyone in the WH universe has the right to be "meta" it would be a Champion of Tzeentch.
- I welcome the changes made to Vassals and diplomacy in general
- Minor Settlement Battles really are too frequent
- I concur to what Anteros has said about the battle AI: it is really not good. It is not that case that it is as good as it was 20 years ago - no no, it its actaully much _worse_ that what we had in RTW or MTW(2). And I can say that with confidence since I've never really stopped playing Medieval 2, so I know what the battle AI of the game is capable of.

I will wait for at least the 2.1 patch until a start the next campaign. There are still a lot of thing to be ironed out.


Since I had no other plans for this sunday and to get away from the bloodshed of Total War, I've jumped into *Life is Strange: True Colors*. So far I'm having a great time  :Small Smile: 

Some remarks:
- I'm glad that the series has _finaly_ moved away from the Coming of Age genre. Nothing wrong with that in general, but we had this now three times in a row. A change of perspective was needed. Personally I would have prefered an even older age category (like, playing an actual adult for a change), but twenty-somethings are also fine.
- with the 4th entry into the series it may be a bit late to lament this but I'm still not a fan of the "supers" worldbuilding. Max'es timewarp abilities would have worked perfectly as a one-time occurance for the simple reason that it is so interconnected to Life is Strange 1's story. You can't tell this story without the time loop abilities. Max wasn't born with those powers and regardless of the specific ending Max "looses" her powers in any case at the end. It allows for several intepretations and doesn't really point to a X-Man or Marvel style setting. Before the Storm followed suit with the only supernatural element being the implied connection between Rachel Ambers state of wellbeing and the forest fire - hardly a superpower. But with Life is Strange 2 it is now cemented that in the Life is Strange universe superpowers are a thing, in a X-Man style fashion with no room for interpretation. And this was superfluous in Life is Strange 2 as a very similar story could have been written without any superpowers and a I get the same feeling from True Colors: at least for now the story could have been written without any supernatural abilities in place.
- having said that, Alex' super-empathy powers _are_ quite interesting.



*although some technologies and skill bonuses are bugged - as usual unfortunately. I cant remeber having played a Warhammer Total War campaign where _all_ skill and technology bonuses counted for all units they ought to count  :Small Annoyed: 
Reminds me to make a bug report about it in the official forums.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Well DMS is proving to be much shorter than I expected, got 3AP only a couple of hours in. Playing a troll Street Sam specced primarily into melee with a small amount of shotguns (which I'm going to be boosting soon). Although TBH I've mostly been dumping my karma into Body rather than Strength.

Still at 6 Essence, because there's basically nothing I want in the basic cyberware selection. Cyberarms only give hp at this stage, when I'm walking around with about 90 already, and even though I'd like the bone lacing I know I'll just rip it out when the better version comes along. In Hong Kong I'm certain I'd have picked up SOMETHING by this point, instead I'm just sitting on ~10k nuyen waiting for the good stuff.

----------


## Zevox

I've continued playing some Persona 4 Arena Ultimax since its rollback update last month. Finally pretty pleased with where I'm at with my main, Rise, I've decided to start learning a second character. I decided that would be Margaret. Oh boy, is that a struggle. The biggest immediate issue, aside from some of the normal unique oddities that make her different from the rest of the cast, is that on defense, she pathetically awful. Her Furious Action - a universal invincible reversal move in the game - is a grab. A very slow, for some reason techable grab, which won't hit airborne foes if done on the ground, and lets the opponent recover in the air afterward at an angle that it is very awkward for her to anti-air them from, so even when it hits, it arguably leaves the opponent at the advantage. To top that off, her guard cancel is a sliding low attack, which actually makes it pretty bad if the next move the opponent is performing hops them up into the air even slightly. Which means her best defensive option is probably to spend 100 meter on a reversal super into One More Cancel. So in other words, I'll be doing even more learning to just block everything the opponent does on offense than I was already doing as Rise.

Besides that, after a day of getting my ass kicked, I feel like I'm starting to get a bit of a handle on her basic neutral game and hit confirms. She's definitely got some powerful options, albeit most feel a tad slower than other characters', so that'll take some getting used to as well. But I think I'll like her, as long as I can get past her awful, awful defensive options.

I'm also getting late into my New Game+ run of Triangle Strategy - chapter 16, so almost at the decision point for the ending. Angling for the Golden Ending, of course. 
*Spoiler*
Show

I'm honestly not sure why I needed to go to see Serenoa's father in chapter 15 to qualify for the Golden Ending. I didn't learn anything that I didn't just from Benedict telling me what had happened last time. Really wish I could've gone with Roland, especially since I know you get to recruit Cordelia doing that. Milo is not so interesting a character by comparison. Though I did appreciate getting to kill Patriate, at least.

For earlier choices, I did go for turning Roland over in chapter 7 this time - and oh boy, do I much prefer the other route in that regard. The only positive consequence there is that Roland got to see Cordelia briefly, but then you get the stupidity of her choosing to remain behind rather than escape with him in chapter 8, which is clearly only done because the consequences of your choices in this game only really last for a couple of chapters before things converge back to a universal story point. Which is kind of one of the reasons I'm not normally a big fan of games trying to give you a bunch of decisions that are supposed to alter things - you either need to do like Bioware does and have all of the decisions isolated to their own subplots, which fractures the story, or make them only so impactful, even if it requires awkward decisions to like that one to be made.

On a similar note, I was not expecting Sorsely Ende to still have his illicit dealings discovered and be killed for it in the route where you choose to work with him rather than expose him, but I guess they absolutely needed Serenoa to be a made a member of the Saintly Seven for some reason, even though that really doesn't make much sense at all in this variation of the story. If it weren't for the fact that getting in touch with Svarog in Aesfrost is obviously going to be important to the Golden Ending, I'd say the other route was the better one there, too - and I'd still say it's better written, in that the consequences at the end of it make considerably more sense.

Anyway, game's still good, but I am admittedly getting tired of it at this point. Honestly it would help if New Game+ didn't bump the levels of the enemies up, forcing me to continue using the same team as my first time around unless I want to do a bunch of grinding to bring the others up to par, but oh well. I look forward to seeing the Golden Ending, and then to moving on to some other game to fill the time until Bayonetta 3.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Finished Dead Man's Switch. It's okay, but suffers from severe pacing problems with advancement. When I finish a mission and have 28 Karma to spend something's gone wrong. Thankfully though I could get just enough Shhottgguns to make it tthhrrrough the last mission relatively painlessly.

So finishing up with a replay of Dragonfall. I decided I wanted a character who'd round out the group and went with a human Rigger, adding a little bit of decking skill after the first mission. I can only use the very worst deck at the moment, but it should be okay until I can increase my skill after another run or two. Hoping I can get those couple of storylines I missed out on last time.

----------


## Cespenar

> Anyway, game's still good, but I am admittedly getting tired of it at this point. Honestly it would help if New Game+ didn't bump the levels of the enemies up, forcing me to continue using the same team as my first time around unless I want to do a bunch of grinding to bring the others up to par, but oh well.


I can't fathom why some RPGs still pull this individual levels bull, but I had the same experience as well.

----------


## Zevox

> I can't fathom why some RPGs still pull this individual levels bull, but I had the same experience as well.


On that note...
*Spoiler: Golden Ending route*
Show

Hold the phone, I have to split my party into three for this route? So they're basically going to force me to grind my lower-level characters up to par in order to complete the next few missions, since my main team can only cover 1/3-1/2 of each squad? Oh, I don't know about this. This might be a SMT4-esque "no, getting this ending is too tedious, screw it" moment.  :Small Annoyed:

----------


## Razade

> On that note...
> *Spoiler: Golden Ending route*
> Show
> 
> Hold the phone, I have to split my party into three for this route? So they're basically going to force me to grind my lower-level characters up to par in order to complete the next few missions, since my main team can only cover 1/3-1/2 of each squad? Oh, I don't know about this. This might be a SMT4-esque "no, getting this ending is too tedious, screw it" moment.


Yeah.

*Spoiler*
Show

This was really frustrating getting it the first time. You get everyone in the final fight though. The three levels with the split party are tough though.


I did try to warn you without spoiling it though.

----------


## Mark Hall

Taking a slight break from Wrath of the Righteous and playing a little bit of Temple of Elemental Evil. Just got to Nulb, having cleared the Deklo Grove, the Moathouse, and Emiridy Meadows. Had one of my hardest fights in a long time against Lareth... previously, I've been able to kill all his guards and deal with him alone, but this time, after a couple tries, I was able to get everyone down.

Team is:
Melee Bard/Ranger. Only going to pick up 3 levels of ranger, put the rest into bard.
Dwarven Fighter, going to go Paladin
Human Cleric (Pelor)
Halfling Rogue 1/Wizard x

NPCs:
Fruella, so far straight fighter
Meleny, straight druid, going to get Augment Summoning at 6th
Furnok, going to throw in a bit of Ranger
Elmo, fighter

----------


## Cespenar

I'm trying the Midnight Fight Express that I've heard here some days ago, and it's good. Kinda plays like if an isometric Oni would meet with Hotline Miami in the middle and sort out their problems? Pretty hard at times, but also pretty enjoyable.

----------


## warty goblin

Gave Steel Rising a whirl. It's a soulslike by Spiders, the developer of Greedfall, the Technomancer, and other odd games whose reach exceeds their grasp. I generally like Spiders' work, if nothing else they aren't afraid to try things, and they're consistently weird in a way too few developers are. 

Steel Rising is right on brand, by which I mean weird. You play as Marie Antoinette's personal robot bodyguard, on a mission to stop Louis from killing everybody with his army of murder robots.

Certain historical liberties may have been taken. 

This works surprisingly well as a setup. The traditional awful soulsalike AI is fine, they're dumb robots. The bit where you meet the same types of enemies all over the place is also sensible, robot come in makes. Stamina is recontextualized as overheating, and in a pleasant twist, you actually start to glow red when you get close to overheat. So you can actually see of you are low stamina without looking at some silly little bar in the corner of the screen. 

The animations are fantastic too. You are humanoid, but you don't move or fight like a human. All your movements are a bit too sharp, your arms rotate back too far as you swing them when running. And in classic Iron Man robots are volume-free magic fashion, all your weapons fold up inside you. So you don't hit dudes with a big hammer, your arm turns into a big hammer. The weapons are odd too, chains and razor blade fans, even something as basic as a sword is a sword for a robot. I've long wished more games imagined the player character as something distinctly inhuman, and this does just that. 

Also, most wildly, it has difficulty settings. Oh they call them assists, but they're modular difficulty settings. If you don't want them, you don't use use them, but I do want them and they make the game flat out better. 

I turned off dropping all my souls on death, because if I wanted to do corpse runs I'd be paying Blizzard $15 a month, then upped stamina regen by 25% and cut enemy damage by 25%. This turns the combat from the usual plodding tedium into something fun and dynamic. Like what being a hot French assassin maid robot should feel like.

----------


## Rynjin

Is it generally more fun than Greedfall? I always felt like that was a game that was ALMOST there, so if it's like 10-20% more fun it might be worth picking up.

Greedfall felt low on mobility and general character options for my taste. At least as a magic user.

----------


## Zevox

Well, I've made my way through the initial endgame Golden Route missions in Triangle Strategy.
*Spoiler*
Show

By which I mean the three where your party is split, of course. There's really only two reasons I wound up doing it:

1) The game has a level cap, 50, which I was just reaching upon getting to these missions.
2) Anyone who is more than 2-3 levels below the recommended level of a mission instantly gains 100 XP - a full level - from any action they take in combat. Those within that range still gain a healthy boost to how much XP they gain, more the further from the recommended level they are.

Combined with the fact that the highest level mock battle I unlocked at this point had a recommended level of 49, it only wound up taking two times playing it with each squad to bring the weaker characters up to par - either all the way up to 50, or at least 48-49. So thank heavens for those bits of the game's design. And on the plus side, now I can experiment with more of the characters.

Although a few of of them really don't warrant it from what I've seen. I think I have to nominate Lionel for Worst Character in the Game*. _Maybe_ he'd be much better if I had promoted him to his tier 3 class or had his tier 3 weapon move unlocked, but as-is, he's slow, not that durable, doesn't do that much damage, and all of his special abilities except his defense debuff are really unreliable. I mean, my next-closest candidate would be Picolletta; she seems like a one-trick pony with that Decoy ability, and even leveled up, was squishy and weak like Lionel. But Decoy is still much more useful than Lionel's abilities. Medina also feels like them, but mainly because I don't want to just drop all of my money on items for her to use, she'd pretty clearly be great if I did do that.

By contrast, Best Character in the Game* is almost undoubtedly Ser Maxwell. He's amazingly mobile thanks to Traverse, has high stats all around, gets multiple AoE abilities, a solid ranged attack option, a powerful single-target melee attack for only 1 TP, TP recovery whenever he hits more than one target with the same attack, and to top it all off, a free heal to full the first time his HP hits 0 in every fight. I can legitimately send him off doing things that would be suicidal for anyone else and get great results. Runner-up candidates there: Serenoa (unsurprisingly, main character privilege) and maybe Avlora. Haven't used her much yet, obviously, but she's quite the powerful bruiser, and that super move of hers is potent if the enemies line up right. She does feel like mostly a pile of high stats, though, not nearly as versatile as Serenoa or Maxwell.

*That I have - I'd need to play through twice more to unlock the last two characters I don't have, Cordelia and Travis. I can't imagine either of them being worse than Lionel or better than Maxwell, though.


On the fighting game end of things, I've wound up deciding I need to drop Rumbleverse - whether temporarily or not, I'm not sure, but I'm questioning whether Battle Royale games are for me after getting frustrated with it. In a lot of regards it has elements that I like from fighting games, but the 40-player aspect wound up being a source of frustration, as getting surprise-attacked by a third (or fourth, or fifth...) person while in the midst of a fight with one, or ganged up on by a couple until I die because I simply can't defend against attacks from multiple people at once if they're doing things right, is extremely frustrating. It leads to me feeling like what I need to do is just avoid fighting as much as possible and let everyone else kill each other until there's just one foe left standing, and that's not fun. Leads me to believe I'd best stick to normal fighting games, where there is only one opponent, even in the team games.

On that note, been sticking it out learning Margaret in Persona 4 Arena, and slowly growing more confident with her. Her defensive weakness is still plenty pronounced, but I'm getting better at using the tools she does have there, and a lot better at playing her neutral game and offense. Wouldn't say I'm as good with her as I am with Rise, but I'm pleased with my progress - at the very least I can now run over players who clearly don't know what they're doing, which actually wasn't the case when I first started playing her a few days ago. Feels good to pick up a second character in this game. And to still have people to play in it a month after the rollback update dropped. And to just be able to play it with good online at all. I kind love the game, is what I'm saying.

----------


## Razade

> Well, I've made my way through the initial endgame Golden Route missions in Triangle Strategy.
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> By which I mean the three where your party is split, of course. There's really only two reasons I wound up doing it:
> 
> 1) The game has a level cap, 50, which I was just reaching upon getting to these missions.
> 2) Anyone who is more than 2-3 levels below the recommended level of a mission instantly gains 100 XP - a full level - from any action they take in combat. Those within that range still gain a healthy boost to how much XP they gain, more the further from the recommended level they are.
> 
> ...


Not sure if I should spoiler this because it's mostly post-game stuff but

*Spoiler*
Show

Lionel is really good if you want to break the economy of the game wide open. Like, generating gold. I didn't really have a problem with money or supplies by the end though so I'm not really sure what his purpose is. He's certainly got some oomph with Charm but I rather just kill enemies and there are better crowd control characters.

Quahaug is probably the best character but you only get him post game and he needs a lot of ranking up to get him there. His ability to mess with turn order and just outright being able to redo a turn is brutal for all the reasons you can expect. It really makes me wish Triangle Strategy didn't keep your level when you start a new game. I wanted to play around with a new team from Level 1, try out different strategies and such. Cordelia is the best healer but that's really all she brings to the table. Travis is just another frontline fighter. Nothing bad but also just sorta mid-tier.

Hassbrassa is objectively one of the worst given she's an all-rounder that isn't good at being an all-rounder like a few of the other people who straddle the various role lines without serious commitment and even then she's just kinda flimsy in every major department. She'd be the worst though if not for Giovanna, another of the basically post-game characters. Taking all the worst of the Geomancer from Final Fantasy Tactics and adding variability with TP cost. So you have to get the right terrain, a tricky thing in the game, and have huge TP or she's the weakest of the mages or the weakest of the healers.

----------


## Zombimode

> Gave Steel Rising a whirl. It's a soulslike by Spiders, the developer of Greedfall, the Technomancer, and other odd games whose reach exceeds their grasp. I generally like Spiders' work, if nothing else they aren't afraid to try things, and they're consistently weird in a way too few developers are.


Hm. I'm, too, a fan of Spiders and had interest in Steel Rising. But as soon as I learned the game is a "Souls-like" my interest dropped to zero.

But, this term has been misapplied in the past. For instance, I remember Dont Nod's _Vampyr_ being described as "Souls-like". Well, let's say if Steel Rising is a Souls-Like as Vampyr was, I would be on board!


On other news: I finished _Life is Strange: True Colors_
While I do not regret my stay in Haven I have to say that for me it was very clearly the least engaging Life is Strange game, by a wide margin even.
It was too nice, too happy. It's structure was entirely to familiar - which would be OK if the content is great, but for me it was just ok.
In general the game lacked ambition and daring. I felt it too short to really pull of the character developments.
And then there is the somewhat jarring disconnect between Alex, the Problem Foster Child to Alex, the "Make the world a better place" psychological super-genius.

----------


## Cygnia

While Steelrising is on my wish list, I've got way too many games to play on my queue right now to buy it.

----------


## warty goblin

> Is it generally more fun than Greedfall? I always felt like that was a game that was ALMOST there, so if it's like 10-20% more fun it might be worth picking up.
> 
> Greedfall felt low on mobility and general character options for my taste. At least as a magic user.


It isn't a Bioware style RPG like Greedfall is, it really is a full on soulsalike. The combat however is pretty mobile for one of these. Even when using a heavy weapon I felt quite fast, and the mace and chain weapons are blisteringly quick. 




> Hm. I'm, too, a fan of Spiders and had interest in Steel Rising. But as soon as I learned the game is a "Souls-like" my interest dropped to zero.
> 
> But, this term has been misapplied in the past. For instance, I remember Dont Nod's _Vampyr_ being described as "Souls-like". Well, let's say if Steel Rising is a Souls-Like as Vampyr was, I would be on board!


No, this is full on soulsalike, which I also normally at best sort of tolerate. However, the difficulty options mean you can turn it into a more or less regular third person action game like they used to make 10 years ago. This is basically what I've done, turning off dropping all your XP at death makes exploration feel fun and interesting instead it being a stupid and penalized thing. It also avoids frustrating metaphysical questions about why everything respawns and so forth, dying is now just dying in a normal videogame. Start over at the checkpoint and try again. Cranking up stamina regen by 25% makes it much less of an issue and gets rid of most of those annoying bits in a soulslike where you swing your sword three times and have to stand there wheezing for 30 seconds; if you really never wanted to care I think the modifier goes up to +100% regen rate. And turning down damage to the player by 25% turns boss fights from needing to learn every move and hoping the boss doesn't proc any of the dumb overpowered ones 4 times in a row to just like, a boss fight. You need to pay attention and dodge and stuff, but it isn't the misery that most soulsalike boss fights are. If you want totally easy mode you can turn off player damage entirely, but 25% feels pretty much like Normal on most games, which leaves full player damage as an intriguing sounding hard mode, rather than obligate suffering. 

Some annoyances remain; enemies respawning when you take a nap and so on, but with the worst of the souls nonsense pruned out these are much, much less bothersome.

----------


## Cespenar

> But, this term has been misapplied in the past. For instance, I remember Dont Nod's _Vampyr_ being described as "Souls-like". Well, let's say if Steel Rising is a Souls-Like as Vampyr was, I would be on board!


I said "come on!", opened Steam to check, and voila, the tag is there. /facepalm

----------


## Zevox

> Not sure if I should spoiler this because it's mostly post-game stuff but
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Lionel is really good if you want to break the economy of the game wide open. Like, generating gold. I didn't really have a problem with money or supplies by the end though so I'm not really sure what his purpose is. He's certainly got some oomph with Charm but I rather just kill enemies and there are better crowd control characters.
> 
> Quahaug is probably the best character but you only get him post game and he needs a lot of ranking up to get him there. His ability to mess with turn order and just outright being able to redo a turn is brutal for all the reasons you can expect. It really makes me wish Triangle Strategy didn't keep your level when you start a new game. I wanted to play around with a new team from Level 1, try out different strategies and such. Cordelia is the best healer but that's really all she brings to the table. Travis is just another frontline fighter. Nothing bad but also just sorta mid-tier.
> 
> Hassbrassa is objectively one of the worst given she's an all-rounder that isn't good at being an all-rounder like a few of the other people who straddle the various role lines without serious commitment and even then she's just kinda flimsy in every major department. She'd be the worst though if not for Giovanna, another of the basically post-game characters. Taking all the worst of the Geomancer from Final Fantasy Tactics and adding variability with TP cost. So you have to get the right terrain, a tricky thing in the game, and have huge TP or she's the weakest of the mages or the weakest of the healers.


*Spoiler: Triangle Strategy character strength talk.*
Show

If Lionel's main combat application is his one ability that induces Tempt, I think my assessment of him stands, because he seems to just be worse at that than Milo. As in, has notably lower odds of actually inflicting it (45% seems to be his standard, where Milo's main move that inflicts it is IIRC 70%, and her big AoE Tempt is 100%, but only applies for one turn). Again, unless promoting him to tier 3 increases those odds, but I don't think that's how it works, pretty sure it's level-based.

Quahaug is situationally good, no question there - I've had Turn Back Time be a full heal + restore the hit of invincibility that Benedict had given someone before, which is very potent, and his ability to teleport people can be good at the right time. But for the Best Character in the Game title I'd think you should be more capable as a stand-alone character, and he's really not, he's a support unit that's situationaly powerful. Stand-alone he's got Time Compression, which is a good buff, and his delayed damage move, which is alright, and that's it.

Hossabara I've been using as sort of my last pick for my main team (put her back in when Benedict left during my first run), and I think she's fine. She's a decent backup healer and damage-dealer, her Trekking for TP ability makes her reasonably independent, and it's always nice to have that pushback ability she shares with Roland and Erador. Her main problem is that the first half of her life bar just seems to melt in one hit all the time, and only Desperate Defense keeps her from feeling super squishy - and that's somehow despite her actual defense stats being perfectly fine, strangely enough, on par with Serenoa. She's probably the weakest member of the team I've been using, but I'm far more skeptical of some of the others than I am of her.

Giovanna I can't possibly see as the worst character, just another situational one like Quahaug, except she's map-dependent instead of specific combat situation dependent. From what I've seen of her, her problem is that if you use her on a map where its mostly just flatlands, all she gets to do is throw rocks, in which case yeah, she sucks. But bear in mind that she needs other types of terrain and only use her when they're available, and she's fine. Heck, for the split-party missions I made a point of putting her in the same squad as Ezana, so that no matter what terrain she got she would have puddle squares to fuel her healing ability, and she made a decent healer because of that. Not nearly as good as Geela, but reasonable. And she gets the same Trekking for TP ability as Hossabara, and a high movement range, so she can generate that TP she needs.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

[QUOTE=warty goblin;25576679]Gave Steel Rising a whirl. It's a soulslike by Spiders, the developer of Greedfall, the Technomancer, and other odd games whose reach exceeds their grasp. I generally like Spiders' work, if nothing else they aren't afraid to try things, and they're consistently weird in a way too few developers are. 

Steel Rising is right on brand, by which I mean weird. You play as Marie Antoinette's personal robot bodyguard, on a mission to stop Louis from killing everybody with his army of murder robots.

Certain historical liberties may have been taken. 

This works surprisingly well as a setup. The traditional awful soulsalike AI is fine, they're dumb robots. The bit where you meet the same types of enemies all over the place is also sensible, robot come in makes. Stamina is recontextualized as overheating, and in a pleasant twist, you actually start to glow red when you get close to overheat. So you can actually see of you are low stamina without looking at some silly little bar in the corner of the screen. 

The animations are fantastic too. You are humanoid, but you don't move or fight like a human. All your movements are a bit too sharp, your arms rotate back too far as you swing them when running. And in classic Iron Man robots are volume-free magic fashion, all your weapons fold up inside you. So you don't hit dudes with a big hammer, your arm turns into a big hammer. The weapons are odd too, chains and razor blade fans, even something as basic as a sword is a sword for a robot. I've long wished more games imagined the player character as something distinctly inhuman, and this does just that. 

Also, most wildly, it has difficulty settings. Oh they call them assists, but they're modular difficulty settings. If you don't want them, you don't use use them, but I do want them and they make the game flat out better. 

I turned off dropping all my souls on death, because if I wanted to do corpse runs I'd be paying Blizzard $15 a month, then upped stamina regen by 25% and cut enemy damage by 25%. This turns the combat from the usual plodding tedium into something fun and dynamic.[QUOTE]

Sounds great, especially the addition of assists that should have been in Soulslikes since like Demons Souls. I'll need something more like game speed tweaking or timing leniency to get me to buy it now though.




> Like what being a hot French assassin maid robot should feel like.


Huh, norms that sounds like a good reason for a purchase.

----------


## warty goblin

> Sounds great, especially the addition of assists that should have been in Soulslikes since like Demons Souls. I'll need something more like game speed tweaking or timing leniency to get me to buy it now though.


Just FYI you can at any time change it it so you literally cannot take damage from enemies, and then back to a different setting if you prefer. Sort of a toggleable nuclear option for difficulty. 




> Huh, norms that sounds like a good reason for a purchase.


It totally is. All games now need to have hot assassin maid robots in them.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Just FYI you can at any time change it it so you literally cannot take damage from enemies, and then back to a different setting if you prefer. Sort of a toggleable nuclear option for difficulty.


I mean it's a great setting, but I won't personally get on with it. I need consequences for ****ing up, but many Soulslikes put them too high with too tight timings.

I personally stopped playing Jedi: Fallen Order because I couldn't get it to a reasonable level of difficulty. I needed Easy level parrying with Normal level damage, or vise versa. So if timings are relatively tight in Steelrising I'll likely spend most of my time at high damage reduction.

But yes, customisable difficulty is great, and should be something you can do at any time outside of a battle. Literal invincibility modes are also a plus, just not my personal thing.

Okay, there's one exception. The Lego Star Wars games don't need difficulty customisation, because in practice they're more about competing with the other player.




> It totally is. All games now need to have hot assassin maid robots in them.


I live in England, the French part is non-negotiable  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Zevox

And I've finished the Golden Ending of Triangle Strategy.
*Spoiler*
Show

Honestly, for how bleak the rest of the game is, this ending almost ties thing up a little too tidily. Sure, the Roselle being freed and Roland and Glenbrook choosing to share the salt of the mines with all of Norzelia works. And what's left of Hyzante wouldn't have much choice but to accept Glenbrook's rule if they wanted to do that, and given the alternative is leaving the people of Hyzante leaderless and ruined, it makes sense that they would. But Aesfrost just kind incorporating as a Glenbrook territory instead of its own nation as well? _Really_? Even if Svarog is fine with that for some reason (and it's bizarre to me that he would be), you'd think basically everyone else in Aesfrost is would be against it. Also, he somehow reconciled things with Gustadolph's most ardent supporters _without_ bloodshed? Really? Stretching belief quite a bit there, guys.

Layla's survival and acceptance of things is iffy too. Given her reaction when Serenoa and the other refused to kill her after their battle I half expected she'd commit suicide at the first opportunity. Bleak, yeah, but again, so is most of the game. And with the way she was talking about not being willing to stain the new world you wanted to build with her bloody hands, well, it would make sense.

Still, they did avoid something I was afraid they'd do, which is having Roland abdicate the throne to Serenoa. After Roland's comments about that during one of the final battles I half expected it, given the big secret of Serenoa's parentage, but I'm glad they let that pass. Serenoa's reaction to learning his heritage was basically what I felt it should be given his characterization, and his straight-up refusing when Roland does offer to let him take the throne after telling him his heritage feels right as well. And of course, nice to see Serenoa and Frederica finally have their damn wedding.

Honestly, while this is obviously the best ending by a long shot, it almost feels like the more bittersweet result of Frederica's ending is more appropriate to the game's overall tone. Can't speak to the other two endings, but it wouldn't surprise me if the same was true of them. It was satisfying to confirm my suspicions that the Hierophant was a lie and Idore was the real power in Hyzante, though. And to get to kill him, but you do that in Frederica's ending too, just without him going all giant monster on you. Come to think of it, since Benedict's ending is about siding with Aesfrost to defeat Hyzante, you probably kill Idore in three of the four endings of the game.

Anyway, good game, if not without its flaws. Don't think I'm doing more runs to see the other two endings though, at least not for a while. Not sure what I'll play next for single-player games right now. I'm still sitting on SMT5, but I'm not sure if I want to jump into another game with a bleak moral system and (I presume because it's SMT) only one, difficult to achieve route to a good ending right now.

----------


## Anteros

Been playing some No Man's Sky.  It's definitely a lot better than it was on launch.  Gameplay loop is still a bit shallow, but exploring and building reminds me of Subnautica, and *that* game is good enough to carry this one too.

----------


## AlanBruce

Picked up Death Stranding yesterday from PS Plus. Visually, the game is absolutely stunning. Kojima certainly pours his demented heart and soul into it. The addition of known actors with a bang up job in line delivery make this game as spectacle to watch.

Unfortunately, the gameplay was just not doing it for me. I had heard awhile back it is a walking simulator and sadly, it is. My best take out of this other than the stunning visuals is that I didnt pay for it.

----------


## tonberrian

Playing Valkyria Chronicles again. Hopefully this time I won't bounce of Selvaria Bles in that first encounter.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Playing Valkyria Chronicles again. Hopefully this time I won't bounce of Selvaria Bles in that first encounter.


Smoke shells. She can't murder you if she can't see you.

----------


## Rynjin

> Picked up Death Stranding yesterday from PS Plus. Visually, the game is absolutely stunning. Kojima certainly pours his demented heart and soul into it. The addition of known actors with a bang up job in line delivery make this game as spectacle to watch.
> 
> Unfortunately, the gameplay was just not doing it for me. I had heard awhile back it is a walking simulator and sadly, it is. My best take out of this other than the stunning visuals is that I didnt pay for it.


I will say this for it, while it is literally a walking simulator, it does have game mechanics and traversal options that let you choose HOW you walk.

----------


## MCerberus

Splatoon 3 is like Splatoon 2, except there's inexplicable obsession with random pieces of media everywhere and it seems half of all messages have art of their fursona.

So it's exactly like Splatoon 2. Which to be clear, I signed up for more splatoon, so all is well. Currently attempting to find the sound test jukebox.

----------


## Zevox

So, tried a couple of things today. One is a game that was a PS+ freebie a couple months ago, Crash Bandicoot 4: It's About Time. I've never played a Crash Bandicoot game before, but I figured hey, I like cartoony platformers, and this is a classic series for that genre. Besides, it was free.

To my surprise, I'm really not feeling it. One part of it is that Crash and Coco, the main characters, are kind of dull to play. Their only abilities are their spin attack, jump/double jump/high jump, crouch/slide, and a ground pound. That's it. Mario had more default move options in Mario 64 than that. They do get other abilities, but even once they're unlocked, they only get them during specific parts of stages where you're intended to need them - once you pass that point, they go away. Quite abruptly, actually, I've more than once been surprised to find that I'd lost one of them. The one other character I got to play, a burly girl named Tawna, was actually more fun, just because she got wall jump and use a grapple gun style ability, on top of most of Crash and Coco's moves (she lost crouch/slide, but those are little used even by them anyway, so they're not missed). But unfortunately she's only playable in her own dedicated stages, which seem to be one per world - and even there you switch back to Crash/Coco half to 2/3 of the way through to finish the stage, and their part is repeating a portion of another stage you already did.

More so than that though, I think my big issue is that the game feels like it's created specifically to appeal to perfectionists. The most basic reason being that you do not have a health bar, at all. One touch form anything = you die, back to the last checkpoint. Hell, there's a "classic mode" where you'd also have limited lives with which to finish each stage at all without needing to restart from the beginning, though thankfully that's optional. Still, even without that mode, you effectively have no room for error. To top that off, like most platformers, a big part of this one is collecting things as you play through it: in this case, it keeps count of how many crates you break along the way, and the fruit that you collect (a lot of which comes from breaking crates...). The thing is though, the rewards for doing this are diamonds at the end of the stage - three for collecting 40/60/80% of the stage's fruit, and one for breaking 100% of its crates. What do these diamonds do? Nothing, unless you _also_ find the one hidden diamond in each stage, _and_ complete the stage with 3 or fewer deaths (which I have never done), to get the other two diamonds. If you collect all six of those diamonds, you get an alternate costume for either Crash or Coco. If you fail to get any of them, the ones you do get are useless, because you're not spending them to unlock these costumes, you're getting awarded the costume for collecting all six diamonds from that specific stage. That's really unsatisfying. If you're not going for near-perfect runs of 3 or fewer deaths and collecting everything possible, you may as well just ignore all of the collectibles entirely and just try to get through the stage, because that's all you'll accomplish anyway. It's surprising how much that makes the game less fun than other platformers, where collecting things as you go has more of a purpose (usually to unlock later areas, sometimes to spend as currency for something, etc). It just feels empty by comparison.

So, deciding that game wasn't for me I picked up one that I watched a youtuber I like play recently, Cult of the Lamb. A game where you play as an adorable little lamb who gets ritually killed to prevent the return of The One Who Waits Below, and is instead resurrected by that same entity in exchange for a promise to start a cult in his name. Which is fun. Combat's kind of a much simpler version of Hades', but probably more important than that is building your Cult to power yourself up. Which, admittedly, has aspects I could do without - why do my followers need to take dumps around the camp, which I then have to clean up? Is that really making the game more fun for anyone? - but building up the camp and declaring doctrines and holding rituals for the Cult is a good time. I named mine the Cult of Fighters, and have been basing all of my cultists on characters from Street Fighter. Had to sacrifice Ryu, my first cultist, already because he had turned into a dissenter and I wasn't equipped to deal with that any other way yet. Amusing enough, Chun-li asked me to do it, too, and I got big boost to her loyalty for dealing with the dissenter. Guess she decided that with him out of the way, she could be the main character.

----------


## Cespenar

> Unfortunately, the gameplay was just not doing it for me. I had heard awhile back it is a walking simulator and sadly, it is. My best take out of this other than the stunning visuals is that I didnt pay for it.


I actually liked the walking sim parts, since they were closer to the description of a walking sim than where the term is usually used for, i.e. there were actually walking mechanics for you to master. The problem was for me that there weren't enough economic challenges to actually care about not screwing up.

Also, the ghost parts are as if from a different game. Honestly, if they were to make the world more full and put more variety and sense to the fetch quests, the walking parts could have been its own game.

Also, writing. I know its kojima, but really, DieHardman? Just embrace the absurd comedy and go full, at that point. No need for a plot or anything.

----------


## warty goblin

So I keep getting distracted from my enjoyable French murderbot maid rampage by, of all things, King's Bounty 2.

KB2 is weird. Most of the time it's a third person RPG, you ramble around some very large but not terribly open levels, doing quests and stuff. Then you run into some bad guys, the camera zooms out, your army appears out of nowhere, and you have a turn based tactics fight. It's quite respectable turn based fighting as well, sort of a riff on the Heroes of Might and Magic thing where you get stacks of each unit, though the numbers are small enough all the dudes are individually rendered, which is cool. 

But most of the time is spent doing RPG stuff. These are all very standard sorts of fantasy RPG quests, go here, rescue that person, collect this, that or the other thing, etc. This should be the most tedious, boring exercise in fetch questing ever to need me to find a senile farmer's pig. This shouldn't work at all.

It totally works for me. KB2 is the sort of fantasy game that just loves fantasy stuff, the more clichéd and standard the better. After years of each RPG trying to subvert expectations harder than the last (while of course keeping you as the supreme badass who saves everyone and is mega cool with the most awesome friends and shiniest loot and choice of the hottest sex partners) and be grittier and more realistic (while all the last parenthetical somehow still applies) while the word counts balloon faster than a hot air balloon hooked up to a jet engine, it's really nice to just go find some chickens or whatever. Its a weirdly pleasant, unassuming sort of fantasy, one that somehow both takes itself entirely seriously while also not taking itself seriously at all No fuss, no pretending this isn't deeply silly, but no ridiculing it's own ridiculousness beyond a sarcastic main character, just the fun of going out and exploring and doing stuff. 

In summary, if KB2 was a person, it would have a couple Larry Elmore Dragonlance paintings on the walls. So it's basically me in videigame form, although the GF made me hang Death of Sturm in my basement workshop, where the normals won't be startled.

----------


## Wookieetank

Finished up Avernum 2: Crystal Souls yesterday.  Overall enjoyed it, but the combat got very samey by the end of it.  Final boss was a bit obnoxious, had to use one specific sword to damage him, and didn't have anyone trained in swords.

Plan on picking up Avernum 3: Ruined world at some point, but gonna give myself a break first.

Now to decide if I go back to West of Loathing or Disco Elysium, hmm...

----------


## factotum

> It's quite respectable turn based fighting as well, sort of a riff on the Heroes of Might and Magic thing where you get stacks of each unit, though the numbers are small enough all the dudes are individually rendered, which is cool.


There's a reason for that--Heroes of Might and Magic was based on the original Kiing's Bounty game, which was designed by Jon van Caneghem for New World Computing back in 1990.

----------


## MCerberus

Betrayal! Splatoon 3 does not have a sound test/ddr machine

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Picked up Citizen Sleeper a couple of weeks ago, bounced off it being text based, and came back after time and Shadowrun made reading easier.

So far it's a nice little cozy game that I'll likely play after stressful days. Very glad that I went Mechanist as there's a good few engineering options at this point in the game, but I'm sure that'll change as storylines develop. At least I've found ways to refill Condition and Energy before either became a serious problem.

----------


## tonberrian

> Smoke shells. She can't murder you if she can't see you.


Alas, the first encounter is before Isara invents smoke shells.

Getting into the endgame now, and suddenly these ridiculous timers to get a ranks are doable. I've entered into some sort of zen tank butt exploding mode. The main plot is... fine, i guess, but I could REALLY use something like fire emblem's support conversations. These people, aside from the ones you always use because they give you more command points, are just very generic and samey. Gameplay has some solid bones though. I assume it's similar to Phoenix Point's, though I haven't played that.

----------


## Cazero

> Alas, the first encounter is before Isara invents smoke shells.


I think I remember shooting her with the tank's main cannon to stagger her out of suppression fire.

----------


## Anteros

> Playing Valkyria Chronicles again. Hopefully this time I won't bounce of Selvaria Bles in that first encounter.


Man, these games are so close to being good.  Every few years I'll boot them up again hoping my memory was off or my tastes have changed enough to enjoy them but they never have.  Between the emphasis on speed and the way that some characters are simply *miles* better than others, you're far too encouraged to use a handful of characters to blitz every stage rather than treat it as a tactical squad based game.  They could be so good with only a few minor changes.

----------


## Rodin

> Man, these games are so close to being good.  Every few years I'll boot them up again hoping my memory was off or my tastes have changed enough to enjoy them but they never have.  Between the emphasis on speed and the way that some characters are simply *miles* better than others, you're far too encouraged to use a handful of characters to blitz every stage rather than treat it as a tactical squad based game.  They could be so good with only a few minor changes.


That was the exact point I stopped playing the one game I tried (Chronicles 4 I think?) - when I realized it was a better strategy to simply spend all my action points on a single character rather than use any of the rest of my squad.  Up until that point I hadn't even realized it was possible, and the game was much superior for it.

I suppose you could try and play with a self-imposed limitation, but then you might run into difficulties if the game is assuming you're going to abuse the ability to move one character many times and balances the map around it.

----------


## Cespenar

Self limiting multiple moves (as Rodin said) makes Valkyria Chronicles pretty enjoyable IMO. Plus, on the few maps that the game cranks up the difficulty a notch, you can let yourself use the multiple moves "ability" to give things an anime-like twist, if you want.

Self-difficulty saves a lot of games.




> Picked up Citizen Sleeper a couple of weeks ago, bounced off it being text based, and came back after time and Shadowrun made reading easier.
> 
> So far it's a nice little cozy game that I'll likely play after stressful days. Very glad that I went Mechanist as there's a good few engineering options at this point in the game, but I'm sure that'll change as storylines develop. At least I've found ways to refill Condition and Energy before either became a serious problem.


Tough act to follow Shadowrun, but Citizen Sleeper delivers well on the writing and atmosphere departments.

----------


## Lord Raziere

Hey everyone this is gonna be an angry "the updated thing screwed with the original old thing I found awesome complaint/rant" thing, just to let you know, I'll keep it short

*Spoiler: Fatesworn DLC, Amalur*
Show

the Fatesworn DLC of Kingdoms of Amalur sucks and goes against everything the original Amalur was about. Amalur was about the ability to defy fate actually being good and such, but Fatesworn's final ending sentence was "in the end we were wrong, fate is immutable" all the while the DLC blames the Fateless One for unraveling the world in some way when it was only portrayed as positive in the main game. oh and a NPC tries to be meta about the Fateless One is actually "imprisoned" by this killing and looting and whatnot. oh and the one who says the world is unraveling is the Fateweaver master of the order, so he has selfish motive to get the Fateless one of the picture so his order can predict the future again.

its "everything about the original game was wrong and bad" writing, and now I understand why everyone complains about this.  also the stupid chaos shield damage mechanic is dumb, they wanted to pad out the quests things are too long, don't get Fatesworn, its bad. uninstalled re-reckoning. 


that is all.

----------


## AlanBruce

> Hey everyone this is gonna be an angry "the updated thing screwed with the original old thing I found awesome complaint/rant" thing, just to let you know, I'll keep it short
> 
> *Spoiler: Fatesworn DLC, Amalur*
> Show
> 
> the Fatesworn DLC of Kingdoms of Amalur sucks and goes against everything the original Amalur was about. Amalur was about the ability to defy fate actually being good and such, but Fatesworn's final ending sentence was "in the end we were wrong, fate is immutable" all the while the DLC blames the Fateless One for unraveling the world in some way when it was only portrayed as positive in the main game. oh and a NPC tries to be meta about the Fateless One is actually "imprisoned" by this killing and looting and whatnot. oh and the one who says the world is unraveling is the Fateweaver master of the order, so he has selfish motive to get the Fateless one of the picture so his order can predict the future again.
> 
> its "everything about the original game was wrong and bad" writing, and now I understand why everyone complains about this.  also the stupid chaos shield damage mechanic is dumb, they wanted to pad out the quests things are too long, don't get Fatesworn, its bad. uninstalled re-reckoning. 
> 
> ...


It has been awhile since I played Kingdoms of Amalur. I am aware theres two DLCs: One where you end up in an island and have to deal with a Pirate. The other where you interact with a city of giants, based off Greek mythology. 

I cant recall that one DLC you mention, though. Perhaps I missed it.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> It has been awhile since I played Kingdoms of Amalur. I am aware theres two DLCs: One where you end up in an island and have to deal with a Pirate. The other where you interact with a city of giants, based off Greek mythology. 
> 
> I cant recall that one DLC you mention, though. Perhaps I missed it.


Those are good ones: Legend of Dead Kel and Teeth of Naros. 

I'm talking about the third one introduced with Re-Reckoning, Fatesworn: that is the bad one made years after the others that does the stupid stuff that goes against everything else. of course you don't know about it, it was only added in 2021.

----------


## WritersBlock

So, they basically pulled a Terminator 3?  :Small Sigh: 


Saw earlier that they released Judgement and the sequel Lost Judgment on steam pretty much out of nowhere. There is a small chance that sega could remove that denuvo malware one day like they did with yakuza 0, and if so they will be a great addition to my game list. Sadly they do not have a good track record with such things. (Yakuza 7 LAD says hello)  :Small Sigh: 

On the plus side I picked up Devil May Cry 5 Deluxe Edition for 20 dollars on sale. I had no idea that they added Vergil as a playable character until just a while ago.

----------


## Rynjin

> Saw earlier that they released Judgement and the sequel Lost Judgment on steam pretty much out of nowhere. There is a small chance that sega could remove that denuvo malware one day like they did with yakuza 0, and if so they will be a great addition to my game list. Sadly they do not have a good track record with such things. (Yakuza 7 LAD says hello)


They also added Yakuza Ishin to the list of upcoming games, which is interesting. i think this will be the first release of Ishin outside of Japan?

----------


## Mark Hall

Generally, I try not to play Minecraft on creative. I know it's an option, but it feels like those invincibility cheats in other games.

However, I made an exception last night.

I started making real, proper, houses for my village. I want more people, I want more specialties, so I need to have more people. So I start making real, proper houses. Lay out spaces, build them in something resembling local style (I did not do the log roofs, instead using stairs, with a plank center), put in actual wood floors and the like. A chest to store food, especially as I now had a place for sheep and pigs (want cows, need to find).

And then, after I finished the first house and had started on the second, I woke up and found the entire village gone. No people left. At all. Just two zombies and a zombie villager.

So, I creatived in some villagers, 'cause I was big mad about it.

----------


## warty goblin

So there's one feature in King's Bounty 2 that I thought would annoy me, but I like; alignment. 

KB2 uses a pair of alignment tracks, Order/Anarchy and Power/Finesse. Like Mass Effect, you advance on each separately; making an Order choice doesn't lower your Anarchy. Unlike ME and most RPGs, nearly every choice I have run across only has alignment boosting options, if you solve a quest with a decision, the decision is going to be between Order and Anarchy  or Power and Finesse. The first two are pretty self explanatory, Power/Finesse is mostly between straight forwards solutions vs doing more legwork and showing some, well, finesse.

Where this gets interesting is that alignment is tied into progression. The skills are grouped by alignment, you need so many points in an alignment to unlock higher tier skills, and RP decisions are the only way to get those points. So pretty much all magic advancement is under Finesse, Power buffs your army, Order gives morale and leadership bonuses, etc. Basically if you want to be a wizard, you have to solve problems like a wizard. Sure sometimes you can do the obvious Power solution, but it won't let you become a better wizard.

 It's a sort of obligate roleplaying, since it heavily rewards playing consistently. I rather like it.

----------


## tonberrian

I played several thousand hours of King's Bounty: The Legend, Crossworlds, Warriors of the North, and Dark Side. Am I going to be disappointed in KB2? Also, how easy is it to do battles without losing troops?

----------


## warty goblin

> I played several thousand hours of King's Bounty: The Legend, Crossworlds, Warriors of the North, and Dark Side. Am I going to be disappointed in KB2? Also, how easy is it to do battles without losing troops?


Not sure, I never got into any of the 2000s King's Bounty games enough to give you much of a comparison. I can say KB2 doesn't have much of a sense of humor, it's pretty much a straight up standard fantasy RPG. I'd say the best point of comparison is probably the SpellForce games, particularly SpellForce 3. Except that instead of an RTS, you fight everything out in turn based combat on a sort of minimap. Which, pleasingly, is actually the terrain where the fight happens.

----------


## Zevox

Finished Cult of the Lamb. It was fun - nothing particularly deep or interesting, whether gameplay-wise or (especially) story-wise, but unique and enjoyable. I probably took way longer completing it than I needed to, given I finished the tech trees like halfway through, but eh. The second major boss was the hardest, took me several tries. The final boss was actually kind of a let-down, I was expecting more out of him, but he was the easiest since the first.

Notable point for me is that my second recruited cultist, Chun-Li, almost made it all the way through, despite the rest of the cult dropping like flies all the time because cultists age so fast in this game. Gave her one of the life-extending amulets when I realized she was already outliving the rest of my first batch of cultists, and it resulted in her living from day 2 to day 89. I finished the game on day 98. So close.

The game does have some serious performance issues though, it was experiencing some major slow-down and frame drops when battles wound up including too many enemies/projectiles - which unfortunately most bosses did. Don't know if that's just the Playstation version of the game, or if it's like that on every system, but considering it's not exactly a graphical wonder and I'm playing it on a PS5, it was very surprising and the one big problem I had with the game. Also a few bugs here and there, but mostly not major ones. The worst one was that I had enemies just vanish from a couple of rooms, preventing me from continuing a crusade because I hadn't killed everyone in the room, but sometimes I was able to just randomly attack and have it count as hitting and killing the MIA foe, and the one other time I had the escape ability to back out with, so it never hurt me too bad.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Tough act to follow Shadowrun, but Citizen Sleeper delivers well on the writing and atmosphere departments.


Honestly I'm not expecting Planescape: Torment (which is still my favourite game by kilometers). But yeah, it's solid and the action limiting is a nice system, if occasionally mildly frustrating. Half of my is already convinced that this is going to end with the main character transferring their consciousness to a ship or station.

----------


## Cespenar

> I played several thousand hours of King's Bounty: The Legend, Crossworlds, Warriors of the North, and Dark Side. Am I going to be disappointed in KB2? Also, how easy is it to do battles without losing troops?


After those, you might be disappointed. It seems to harken not to the old KB-Heroes-ish style, but tries to be more like an average 2000s RPG, with matching graphics, quests and writing. The fights are similar, but it seems to have a slower start compared to some of the other KBs, IIRC.

I admit, it has a bit of a charm, but if you're not naturally predisposed to nostalgic jank like warty seems to be (sorry  :Small Tongue: ), you might not like it, especially after the other KB games.




> Honestly I'm not expecting Planescape: Torment (which is still my favourite game by kilometers). But yeah, it's solid and the action limiting is a nice system, if occasionally mildly frustrating. Half of my is already convinced that this is going to end with the main character transferring their consciousness to a ship or station.


You're not too far off with that hunch (though I guess the trope comes with the genre), but there are different endings to choose from, which are not that hard to unlock simultaneously.

----------


## Yora

Once again back up on that Morrowind horse.

I am sure this is the time I am going to cover more than 15% of the game.

----------


## Mark Hall

> Once again back up on that Morrowind horse.
> 
> I am sure this is the time I am going to cover more than 15% of the game.


15% of a game like Morrowind is ambitious.

----------


## warty goblin

> After those, you might be disappointed. It seems to harken not to the old KB-Heroes-ish style, but tries to be more like an average 2000s RPG, with matching graphics, quests and writing. The fights are similar, but it seems to have a slower start compared to some of the other KBs, IIRC.


The start is definitely slow, you kinda gotta plow through the snow map, which is OK but dull. You don't have enough units or abilities for combat to be interesting yet, and the story is mostly uncomprehensible.

Once you power through that and the subsequent dialog bit where you (sort of) figure out what's going on and get to the Crown Lands though, it gets better. There's more quests, your army gets big enough to be interesting, there's a fair amount of unit choice, and as you clear out fights you gradually open up the map.




> I admit, it has a bit of a charm, but if you're not naturally predisposed to nostalgic jank like warty seems to be (sorry ), you might not like it, especially after the other KB games.


Oh I'm totally predisposed to nostalgic jank! I think the thing is I mostly like weird things, and (conventionally) good games are very rarely weird or unusual.

----------


## Sermil

Playing _Disco Elysium_. Playing it on Switch which might not have been ideal; the navigation is very obviously intended to be click-based. There's a couple of tricky routes which the game can just pathfind through if you click on the other side, but where it's not obvious what route will work when you're directly moving the detective with the thumbstick. Also, Kim sometimes gets in your way since the game doesn't know which way you wanted to go.

Otherwise, living up to its reputation as a very weird, quirky, _Planescape: Torment_-like game.

I just got to the big scene where

*Spoiler*
Show


the mercenaries confront Titus and the Hardie Boys.



I was pretty mad because I blew a bunch of 80%+ red checks[1] and everything went sideways. But I did succeed in the most important 28% red check to

*Spoiler*
Show

push Kim out of the way at the end


, so that's good.

I almost considered replaying the scene, but I really don't like doing that, it makes the game feel cheap. I might go back and watch a YouTube playthough just to see what happens if you succeed in a few more checks.

[1] For those who haven't played, white checks are skill checks that can be retried when you get better at the skill, like picking a lock. Red checks are skill checks that can't be retried, like grabbing a piece of paper before it blows away.

----------


## Eldan

It's basically one dead Hardy for every check you fail. Down to I think only two survivors. The conversation you hae with them after you wake up changes a lot depending on which ones survive.

----------


## Yora

> 15% of a game like Morrowind is ambitious.


The furthest I got in the past was taking a peek at Vivec and Gnisis and maybe meeting the Ashlanders of the Nerevarine Cult one time. Done some Fighter and Mage guild stuff in Balmora, and that's about as much as I've seen in probably five playthroughs so far.
But I think I pretty much retreaded almost all of the game that I've seen before. Already got guild quests I've never done before and about to head up North to meet the Ashlanders. From there on I have no clue what's around in the world.

This time I got a computer that doesn't even sweat when all settings are at max and with the upscaled texture pack the game looks really quite nice inside cities and forests.

----------


## Resileaf

Morrowind remains one of my favorite games. I don't care that it's outdated, even with the combat system, I feel good playing it thanks to the absolutely unique setting, and that's all that really matters to me.

I've completed the main quest a couple of times, but I've never gone far into guild quests. Ironically, I found out that I still got several high-end items that are acquired during guild questlines because there are no dungeons locked behind guild progress so if you know where to search or get lucky in your exploration, you can pick up some pretty awesome stuff that other Elder Scrolls wouldn't let you have.

My favorite early-game find is in a Daedric shrine between Balmora and Ald-ruhn, where you can find a staff that lets you cast levitate.

----------


## Sermil

> It's basically one dead Hardy for every check you fail. Down to I think only two survivors. The conversation you hae with them after you wake up changes a lot depending on which ones survive.


Ya, I ended up with just two survivors.

*Spoiler*
Show

 Elizabeth, Titus, and the rest of the Hardies are all dead. The two remaining boys weren't very happy with me.

----------


## Anteros

Tried out ashes of singularity since it was free on gamepass and I've been wanting a good RTS game, but after one mission I didn't feel any reason to keep playing.  The game makes what I'd consider a cardinal sin in an RTS game.  Too much input delay and missed inputs.

----------


## warty goblin

> Tried out ashes of singularity since it was free on gamepass and I've been wanting a good RTS game, but after one mission I didn't feel any reason to keep playing.  The game makes what I'd consider a cardinal sin in an RTS game.  Too much input delay and missed inputs.


Ashes isn't brilliant, but it's a fine game. What it is is a large scale game, you really aren't supposed to be microing units in any way where input delay or exact timings matter. It's much more about directing your endless tide of units against the enemy in a positionally and compositionally superior way.

----------


## Anteros

> Ashes isn't brilliant, but it's a fine game. What it is is a large scale game, you really aren't supposed to be microing units in any way where input delay or exact timings matter. It's much more about directing your endless tide of units against the enemy in a positionally and compositionally superior way.


It's possible I didn't give it a fair shake, but between not letting me shift queue actions, and fully missing more than half my inputs it just didn't feel good to play.  I've still got it installed, so I may revisit it later.

----------


## GloatingSwine

I also bounced off Ashes of the Singularity.

Mostly because it's one of those games where there's a zillion units and they're all pretty indistinct from each other in design.  Maybe unit composition super matters, but who knows what your composition actually even is when every unit is just a floaty rectangle with slightly different greeble on.

----------


## Zevox

Decided to revisit a game I have via the Switch's N64 subscription (get that in while I still have it, since I don't intend to keep re-subscribing to that every year) after finishing Cult of the Lamb. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask.

It feels a lot like re-playing Banjo-Tooie a couple of years ago did. When I re-played the first game (Banjo-Kazooie, Ocarina of Time), I remembered damn near everything about it, because I played the hell out of it as a kid to the point where every nook and cranny, every trick and secret, is still ingrained in my mind. Re-playing the sequel, there's certainly plenty of familiarity, since I did play it several times when I was younger, but the details are significantly hazier, so I'm more genuinely getting to explore and experience the game, if not exactly like the first time, at least a lot closer to it. It's a fun experience with a game that feels like such an old, nostalgic classic. Granted, I'm not one of those who counts Majora's Mask as one of his favorite Zelda games, but it's still damn good, like pretty much every game in the series.

I've gotten through the first Temple, and I do have to say, wow, what were they thinking with that design for the Giants? Just a pair of enormous legs attached to a big head with no other body parts below it, with arms that are nowhere near long enough compared to the size of the legs coming out of the sides of the head. It's so bizarre to look at, like something that belongs in some kind of horror game instead of this one.

I look forward to getting to the Zora Mask, I remember that being my favorite part of the game. Still, have to get through the Goron area first.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> I've gotten through the first Temple, and I do have to say, wow, what were they thinking with that design for the Giants? Just a pair of enormous legs attached to a big head with no other body parts below it, with arms that are nowhere near long enough compared to the size of the legs coming out of the sides of the head. It's so bizarre to look at, like something that belongs in some kind of horror game instead of this one.


.....Zevox. Majora's Mask lowkey has a lot of spooky horror elements

the game has a melancholic tone in some form or other, two of transformation masks are obtained from people who tried to be heroes and died for it, Link has to constantly reset time thus erasing peoples happiness every time he defeats a beast, the ranch in this game outright has a creepy alien invasion, all the people left in town are either those who don't believe the moon is falling or so bound by duty they can't leave and all the mayor does about is let people decide whether or not they leave on their own. there is also the strange fact that all the inhabitants look oddly similar to people Link has met before despite having no proven connection with their counterparts, and you do a lot of putting spirits to rest in that game who'd otherwise just linger around creepily in sadness. oh and Link is still mourning and searching for Navi while having this oddly similar counter part in Tatl.

like it has serious "depressed spooky journey reflecting on the flaws of society and people while mourning those passed" vibe to it. I'd say it belongs even if its not a horror game, because its very horror-adjacent.

----------


## MCerberus

The n64 Zeldas would have been really bleak if they were written just a little worse than they weren't wouldn't they? MM has all those little moments, you think they world is just a doomed place living under the shadow of its destruction, but there are countless little moments. Even Ocarina was about loneliness where you lose the friends Link has wanted his whole life at the start of act 2, and that damned owl really twists the knife about it. But still you unite the peoples of Hyrule, make friends with a scarecrow and mad scientist at a lake, save an avaricious family from a curse, all sorts of things to lighten the tone.

----------


## Zombimode

I was pretty undecided in the last couple of days. First I tried *Blasphemous* - I like the style but the game is a bit more demanding on the dexterity side than what I want right now. For now I've put it on the shelf. I will get to it eventually.

Then I picked up the Allied campaign of *Red Alert 2* again. Finished it this moring and also made first forays into the Sovjet campain in Yuris Revenge. Cool stuff, but I can't play RTSes for too long. Too stressful  :Small Tongue: 

In between I started *Wasteland 3*. At least yesterday afternoon I couldnt really get into it. This may be in part because in comparison I found *Atom* much more engaging and also prefer the closer to reallity stance of that game. But also in part because what actually want is a classic _fantasy_ RPG - but currently there are none "ripe" enough for my tastes*  :Small Annoyed: 

Now I've settled on *Stray*. It's great  :Small Smile: . And I had the impression that my cat, when she was laying on my lap, was actively following the action on the screen - something my cats never do.
I DO have the suspicion that the in-game meows are not actually recored from real cats. They somehow sound "fake" to me. At least I have heard more convincing meows in other games.
In all honesty I have no idea how non-cat people may feel about this game. It seems to be catered to a very specific audience  :Small Big Grin: 


*
*Spoiler*
Show


*Wrath of the Righteous* will take about a year to be finished now that a second set of DLCs have been announced.
*Black Geyser* is still pretty much in active development with several features like player strongholds not implemented yet.
*Solasta* is close, but has still one DLC in the pipeline.
For *King Athur* the news is that there are "many" content updates after The Chained God - although nothing concrete.

----------


## Cygnia

Apparently, that was a real cat meowing...  :)

https://gamerant.com/stray-behind-th...s-inspiration/

----------


## Anteros

> I was pretty undecided in the last couple of days. First I tried *Blasphemous* - I like the style but the game is a bit more demanding on the dexterity side than what I want right now. For now I've put it on the shelf. I will get to it eventually.
> 
> Then I picked up the Allied campaign of *Red Alert 2* again. Finished it this moring and also made first forays into the Sovjet campain in Yuris Revenge. Cool stuff, but I can't play RTSes for too long. Too stressful 
> 
> In between I started *Wasteland 3*. At least yesterday afternoon I couldnt really get into it. This may be in part because in comparison I found *Atom* much more engaging and also prefer the closer to reallity stance of that game. But also in part because what actually want is a classic _fantasy_ RPG - but currently there are none "ripe" enough for my tastes* 
> 
> Now I've settled on *Stray*. It's great . And I had the impression that my cat, when she was laying on my lap, was actively following the action on the screen - something my cats never do.
> I DO have the suspicion that the in-game meows are not actually recored from real cats. They somehow sound "fake" to me. At least I have heard more convincing meows in other games.
> In all honesty I have no idea how non-cat people may feel about this game. It seems to be catered to a very specific audience 
> ...


Any idea where I can find news about the Wrath DLC?  A quick google search didn't turn up much.

----------


## The Glyphstone

How did you get Red Alert 2 to run on a modern computer? That was where I thought the C&C franchise hit its peak, and id love to play it again somehow.

----------


## Thomas Cardew

It's been awhile since I've done it, but there's a fan patch out for The First Decade collection. The one big thing I remember is don't install it /programfiles or you run into everything need admin rights. Just give it it's own c/folder

----------


## Zombimode

> How did you get Red Alert 2 to run on a modern computer? That was where I thought the C&C franchise hit its peak, and id love to play it again somehow.


I bought the C&C collection on Origin*
I had no problems on my old Win7 PC with the main game.
With my new Win10 PC I had to manually edit the .ini file to get a different resolution then 640x480.

For Yuris Revenge the trick with the .ini didn't work. I had to resort to some kind of fan-made patch/launcher: https://cnc.community/red-alert-2/how-to-play
With that installed, everyting runs just fine  :Small Smile: 

*which, in my country, _still_ contains the cut german versions of Generals, Zero Hour and Red Alert 3... although these titles are no longer on the index in germany for quite some time now :-(
Other players seem to have luck contacting the customer support to get the original enlish versions of these games. I will try to do so when I get arround to play those games.





> Any idea where I can find news about the Wrath DLC?  A quick google search didn't turn up much.


I don't think there is much besides the announcement that there WILL BE a second run of DLCs:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_...ontent_season/

----------


## Mark Hall

After fighting Mefistophiles a dozen times last night, I looked up what I was doing wrong, and absolutely every guide said "Turn off turn-based combat".

So, I'll try that today or tomorrow. Ironically, to beat a devil, you need to switch to the more chaotic combat system.

----------


## Zevox

> .....Zevox. Majora's Mask lowkey has a lot of spooky horror elements
> 
> the game has a melancholic tone in some form or other, two of transformation masks are obtained from people who tried to be heroes and died for it, Link has to constantly reset time thus erasing peoples happiness every time he defeats a beast, the ranch in this game outright has a creepy alien invasion, all the people left in town are either those who don't believe the moon is falling or so bound by duty they can't leave and all the mayor does about is let people decide whether or not they leave on their own. there is also the strange fact that all the inhabitants look oddly similar to people Link has met before despite having no proven connection with their counterparts, and you do a lot of putting spirits to rest in that game who'd otherwise just linger around creepily in sadness. oh and Link is still mourning and searching for Navi while having this oddly similar counter part in Tatl.
> 
> like it has serious "depressed spooky journey reflecting on the flaws of society and people while mourning those passed" vibe to it. I'd say it belongs even if its not a horror game, because its very horror-adjacent.


I'd argue most of that is more tragedy than horror - mostly tragedies that the game is ultimately about averting, at that. But even if you take that view, the Giants' role in things isn't as creepy monsters you're supposed to be scared of, it's as saviors. They're the ones who can stop the moon's fall once you release them from whatever Skull Kid did to the Temples, the source of hope for things to have a better outcome. So I'd say it's still a bizarre choice for design for them regardless.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Finished Saints Row 2 again by just giving a significant push to get the Samedi, Ronin,and Ultron donein about two days. In retrospect I wish I'd done the main missions in parallel, it would have presented a nicer difficulty curve and, if I remember right, *Spoiler*
Show

the Boss begins descending into vindictiveness at roughly the same time Gat is mourning Aisha,
 which would have nicely contrasted the arcs.

In retrospect my only complaints are the controls and that final mission. I also think I prefer the more cartoony SR3 artstyle, but that's a minor thing. I do kind of wish that Volition had made remakes of SR1 and 2 in the SR3 engine, both games really suffer from a control scheme designed for the PS2, but maybe alternate universe Anonynouswizard wishesthey didn't.

For my next more involved game to go alongside Citizen Sleeper I'm torn between SR3 and Torment: Tides of Numenera. On the one had SR3 is nowhere near the level of 2 and 4*, on the other I never found a bloody inn in Numenera. Plus Numenera was disappointingly fantasy, I went into itexpecting knights in power armour and priests jury rigging exhausts into beam weapons, and instead it's just swords and 'magic'. At least 40k's tech priests have a basic understanding of their tech (even if they mostly refuse to utilise it, the best thing the Ordo Mechanics could do is abandon the hunt for STCs and broaden their development programs).

* If only because it needs to push you towards the side activities more, it makes the story feel much longer.

----------


## Cespenar

> . Plus Numenera was disappointingly fantasy, I went into itexpecting knights in power armour and priests jury rigging exhausts into beam weapons, and instead it's just swords and 'magic'.


Eh, it's obviously not WH40K, but more magitech with a splash of weird.

Still, it earned points for me by being at least not a direct BG2 clon-, ahem, I mean, homage, and trying a few new things.

----------


## Triaxx

Majora's Mask is an interesting game. The reason it's based around time so heavily is that they had a deadline to finish it with the recycled assets. Thusthe time looping. 

Personally I think it's a more focused game than Ocarina was. I love Ocarina but Majora's just more fun to mess around in. Especially the ability to refight bosses.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Eh, it's obviously not WH40K, but more magitech with a splash of weird.
> 
> Still, it earned points for me by being at least not a direct BG2 clon-, ahem, I mean, homage, and trying a few new things.


.....*looks at the videogame preview on steam*

wow, its even worse than the ttrpg. the ttrpg at least has a cool sleek post-apocalyptic nanotech aesthetic and vibe, but this takes a fantasy setting and slaps on some random tech bits with no consistency. bleh. no surprise though, Monte Cook was never anything but a creator of DnD. like the Numenera ttrpg at least looks freaking good, really good art, even if its just a DnD clone, but Torment Numenera doesn't even look its trying. like even if I was never going to use the system or anything, or the exact setting I like the ideas and vibe the ttrpg was going for? but this just no, just ugh. Whats this aesthetic? Why. this doesn't look like the Numenera of the ttrpg, or did they pick the literal worst screenshots for showing this world's aesthetic? wheres the nice silvery tech, immaculate floating spires in green wilderness, the ruins of cool rings everywhere? wheres the sense that there used to be some Culture-like society that fell? why does it just look like fantasy with some metal bits slapped on? whatever I was picturing of this world, this wasn't it.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Eh, it's obviously not WH40K, but more magitech with a splash of weird.
> 
> Still, it earned points for me by being at least not a direct BG2 clon-, ahem, I mean, homage, and trying a few new things.


I mean, I wasn't expecting it to be 40k, and I get that some of it is tied into the entire idea of cyphers as one shot items. I was just using 40k as a good example of technomysticism.

Also while it might not be a BG2 clone in the same way Pillars of Eternity is, it's very much a D&D clone in a skin.




> .....*looks at the videogame preview on steam*
> 
> wow, its even worse than the ttrpg. the ttrpg at least has a cool sleek post-apocalyptic nanotech aesthetic and vibe, but this takes a fantasy setting and slaps on some random tech bits with no consistency. bleh. no surprise though, Monte Cook was never anything but a creator of DnD. like the Numenera ttrpg at least looks freaking good, really good art, even if its just a DnD clone, but Torment Numenera doesn't even look its trying. like even if I was never going to use the system or anything, or the exact setting I like the ideas and vibe the ttrpg was going for? but this just no, just ugh. Whats this aesthetic? Why. this doesn't look like the Numenera of the ttrpg, or did they pick the literal worst screenshots for showing this world's aesthetic? wheres the nice silvery tech, immaculate floating spires in green wilderness, the ruins of cool rings everywhere? wheres the sense that there used to be some Culture-like society that fell? why does it just look like fantasy with some metal bits slapped on? whatever I was picturing of this world, this wasn't it.


There's times where it definitely works, but early on at least it doesn't seem to move much from Yet Another D&D Fantasy. Cool bits like government buildings being derelict spaceships, but even that has to be pointed out.

Like, as a successor to Planescape: Torment it's just not weird enough. Once you realise it's D&D fantasy it becomes comfortable, whereas P:T and Disco Elysium have that recurring sense of 'not how it's supposed to be'.

The tabletop game has two big advantages. First, I can easily just add to it if I ever run it, especially as I have both The Strange and the Cypher 2e book. I can enhance the great aesthetic by occasionally throwing in a shiny laser rifle or a treasure of diamond data discs (useless to most PCs, invaluable to an organisation like the Order of Truth). The Cypher system is also genuinely solid and a legitimate attempt at innovation, although that also means it's not for everybody. I'd argue it's more similar mechanically to Nobilis than D&D, Pools and Edge are nearly identical to it's MP and Stats, just with a random element thrown in and stats suited to fantasy adventure rather than godly tea parties (and uses a difficulty ladder whereas Nobilis and it's spinoffs use an action/effect ladder).

The art is amazing, and I want to play in that world, not D&D with a coat of paint.

----------


## Mark Hall

> After fighting Mefistophiles a dozen times last night, I looked up what I was doing wrong, and absolutely every guide said "Turn off turn-based combat".
> 
> So, I'll try that today or tomorrow. Ironically, to beat a devil, you need to switch to the more chaotic combat system.


I wussed out. After several times, and even following the suggestion to change to RTWP, I simply could not beat that bastard. I turned difficulty down to Story Mode and moved on with my life.

I HATE that fight. Seriously. On core-ish difficulty, he's spamming insane amounts of summons, to the point where my turn-based game couldn't process them; almost every summon in the fight... and I wasn't shy with summons, either... I had to turn off turn based to end their turn, then turn it right back on. RTWP was even worse, as he'd just lay down constant explosions and summons, immediately overwhelming my Protection from Fire. His AC was so high I found it was actually better to shoot his summons, and hope I critted or killed them to do anything resembling weapon damage to him.

----------


## Anteros

> I wussed out. After several times, and even following the suggestion to change to RTWP, I simply could not beat that bastard. I turned difficulty down to Story Mode and moved on with my life.
> 
> I HATE that fight. Seriously. On core-ish difficulty, he's spamming insane amounts of summons, to the point where my turn-based game couldn't process them; almost every summon in the fight... and I wasn't shy with summons, either... I had to turn off turn based to end their turn, then turn it right back on. RTWP was even worse, as he'd just lay down constant explosions and summons, immediately overwhelming my Protection from Fire. His AC was so high I found it was actually better to shoot his summons, and hope I critted or killed them to do anything resembling weapon damage to him.


Yeah, turn based mode doesn't do well on summon heavy fights.  I've had to use the same trick myself of switching back and forth just to get them to take their turn.  Now I'm wondering how my character will do against him since he's a pure TWF paladin.  I am playing fairly optimized though since I knew about the AC bloat from my first run.  I guess I'll see if I ever get there.  My current run is kinda in stasis because I keep getting distracted by other things.

----------


## Mark Hall

> Yeah, turn based mode doesn't do well on summon heavy fights.  I've had to use the same trick myself of switching back and forth just to get them to take their turn.  Now I'm wondering how my character will do against him since he's a pure TWF paladin.  I am playing fairly optimized though since I knew about the AC bloat from my first run.  I guess I'll see if I ever get there.  My current run is kinda in stasis because I keep getting distracted by other things.


I am powering through it right now. I'm not sick of it, but I want to get done with it, just so I can move on.

Don't know what I'll play next. Maybe go back to Fallout 4.

----------


## Cespenar

> I mean, I wasn't expecting it to be 40k, and I get that some of it is tied into the entire idea of cyphers as one shot items. I was just using 40k as a good example of technomysticism.
> 
> Also while it might not be a BG2 clone in the same way Pillars of Eternity is, it's very much a D&D clone in a skin.
> 
> Like, as a successor to Planescape: Torment it's just not weird enough. Once you realise it's D&D fantasy it becomes comfortable, whereas P:T and Disco Elysium have that recurring sense of 'not how it's supposed to be'.


Eh, I agree that it could have been weirder, but P:T and Disco aren't too realistic barriers to 1-or-0 games with. It's still plenty scifi-er and weirder than your classic D&D stuff, not to mention that it uses its own system, rather than the centuries old Str-Dex-Cha-yadda-yadda with the pausable real time combat.

The only problem I see with it is that the preconceived notion of it being the "spiritual successor of P:T" raising the expectations a bit too much, which is understandable but not 100% fair to the game.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Eh, I agree that it could have been weirder, but P:T and Disco aren't too realistic barriers to 1-or-0 games with. It's still plenty scifi-er and weirder than your classic D&D stuff, not to mention that it uses its own system, rather than the centuries old Str-Dex-Cha-yadda-yadda with the pausable real time combat.
> 
> The only problem I see with it is that the preconceived notion of it being the "spiritual successor of P:T" raising the expectations a bit too much, which is understandable but not 100% fair to the game.


It calls itself Torment and billed itself as a spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment, a comparison to P:T is unavoidable. Unfortunately it comes off really poorly, it's taken some of the story beats from P:T but none of the style, and that matters.

I mean on it's own? It's a decent enough RPG with good mechanics, and if it didn't call itself Torment I might not have any problems with it. But it invites comparisons with P:T, and it misses the mark. It really should have used any other name. Numenera: Echoes of the Changing God or something.

----------


## Wookieetank

> It really should have used any other name. Numenera: Echoes of the Changing God or something.


Numenera: Please don't compare us to Planscape  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## tonberrian

Back to playing Europa Universalis 4 again. Game's harder now, I gotta learn new things again.

----------


## Anteros

Callback to the previous conversation we had about Star Citizen.  I see that they recently passed half a billion dollars in funding.  Still nowhere near a completed game or release date though, and the fanbase is still completely delusional.  That guy must be filling swimming pools with gold Scrooge Mcduck style.

----------


## warty goblin

Two of the (many) things World of Warships does not model are gun overheating and magazine capacity. Normally this doesn't seem enormously relevant, as most of the time you aren't shooting continuously as fast as the guns load, at at least for battleships it would be borderline impossible to fire the guns fast enough to burn through a full magazine in a 20 minute match even if you did.

These things come to mind because I have recently obtained the _Gronigen_, a Dutch destroyer with guns that reload in about 1.4 seconds.

----------


## Zevox

I have now completed up through the Great Bay Temple in Majora's Mask. And I remembered right, the Zora Mask is definitely the highlight of the game. Underwater areas and swimming mechanics that work this well are quite rare - hell, I don't know if anything else of this sort has ever beaten this game in that regard. Not that Action-Adventure games of this sort that have underwater areas are particularly common, but still.

I also like that the game's dungeon items are the bow in the first dungeon, and the three elemental arrows in the subsequent dungeons (I assume for the fourth, since I haven't gotten there yet and don't definitively remember, but it seems like a safe bet at this point). And I have to give Majora's Mask this much over Ocarina of Time, it sure does give the elemental arrows more of a purpose than its predecessor. In Ocarina only the Light Arrows mattered, and only for the final dungeon and boss fight; the fire and ice arrows were optional, easily missed (especially the ice arrows), and didn't really do much for you even when you got them. The ice arrows in particular were basically just a cosmetic effect and bonus damage, and the fire arrows were mostly redundant with Din's Fire, or even just deku sticks for lighting most of the torches you needed to. Where Majora's Mask builds dungeons around them, allowing the ice arrows to freeze enemies or the surface of the water to create platforms, or to stop falling water at points in the Great Bay Temple, while the... Goron Mountain Temple (I don't remember its real name) had plenty of ice that the fire arrows were needed to melt due to the absence of any other fire abilities in your arsenal, and still had some uses in the Great Bay Temple, including against a mini-boss. It is nice to have them go from afterthought in one game to dungeon centerpiece in its sequel.

I also find it quite amusing just how easy it is to get rich in this game. There are two easily acquired 100-rupee chests right in Clock Town that refill every time you go back in time, so you can and should be gaining +200 rupees per cycle before even doing anything, and the bank existing means that your wallet size doesn't really limit the number of rupees you can accumulate anymore. I almost wonder if they didn't originally intend to include the banker who can remember your rupee count even after you go back in time, and the point of those chests was to make sure you weren't really going back to 0 every time, assuming you poked around enough to have found them, and then they just didn't bother to take them out after they did put the banker in.

----------


## Yora

How am I already level 30 with several maxed out skills in Morrowind and still have not even visited a quarter of the world? From what I read, level 25 is when the enemies stop getting stronger or something like that.

And at the same time, my strongest weapons is still the fire short sword you get at one of the first mage guild quests in Balmora.

Not sure if this game is even meant to be completed in one playthrough, or set up to have three or four completely different runs without having to repeat a lot of quests already done in previous ones.

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

> Not sure if this game is even meant to be completed in one playthrough, or set up to have three or four completely different runs without having to repeat a lot of quests already done in previous ones.


Given that a number of the faction quests are mutually exclusive (or at least difficult to do at the same time)? The latter.

----------


## Mark Hall

> How am I already level 30 with several maxed out skills in Morrowind and still have not even visited a quarter of the world? From what I read, level 25 is when the enemies stop getting stronger or something like that.
> 
> And at the same time, my strongest weapons is still the fire short sword you get at one of the first mage guild quests in Balmora.
> 
> Not sure if this game is even meant to be completed in one playthrough, or set up to have three or four completely different runs without having to repeat a lot of quests already done in previous ones.


The Great Houses, and the end of the Fighters Guild and Thieves Guild quest lines, are mutually exclusive, so if you want to experience everything, you'll need to play through at least 3 times, which means a lot of repeated quests.

Related: My favorite Morrowind build puts Conjuration as a Major skill, because it gives immediate access to the Bound Dagger spell, which is a fantastic early-game weapon. Call it up, and for 30 seconds, you have a weightless chopper, comparable to a Steel Broadsword (dagger is 8-12 damage in everything; steel broadsword is 4-14... lower max, higher minimum)

----------


## Zombimode

> the end of the Fighters Guild and Thieves Guild quest lines, are mutually exclusive


It is quite interessting how this particular rumor is still being told even though Morrowind was released almost 20 years ago  :Small Big Grin: 

To elaborate: the Fighters Guild and the Thieves Guild are NOT NECESSARILY mutually exclusive - though they can be if you make certain choices.
Just don't be a Camonna Tong pawn and everything works out fine  :Small Smile:

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> It is quite interessting how this particular rumor is still being told even though Morrowind was released almost 20 years ago 
> 
> To elaborate: the Fighters Guild and the Thieves Guild are NOT NECESSARILY mutually exclusive - though they can be if you make certain choices.
> Just don't be a Camonna Tong pawn and everything works out fine


Note the quote says "the end" of the two is mutually exclusive - which it kinda is, since the heads of the two guilds basically give you orders to
*Spoiler*
Show

kill the leadership of the other one

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

Isnt there some shenanigans you can pull to be part of House Hlaalu and one of the others at the same time too?

----------


## Zombimode

> Note the quote says "the end" of the two is mutually exclusive - which it kinda is, since the heads of the two guilds basically give you orders to
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> kill the leadership of the other one


That's what I was talking about with "don't be a Camonna Tong pawn"  :Small Smile: 





> Isnt there some shenanigans you can pull to be part of House Hlaalu and one of the others at the same time too?


That's a bug: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:G...e_Great_Houses

----------


## Resileaf

If I recall correctly, the Telvanni and Mages Guild also go to war and are also mutually exclusive.

And technically the main quest is incompatible with the Redoran and Telvanni if you do the former first.

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> If I recall correctly, the Telvanni and Mages Guild also go to war and are also mutually exclusive.


Nope, while the conflict is mentioned, and some quests relate to it, joining both is viable, and basically negates the one drawback present (lower disposition from people in opposing faction).




> And technically the main quest is incompatible with the Redoran and Telvanni if you do the former first.


Sounds like a weird technicality (and also not one I remember) ;P

----------


## Resileaf

> Sounds like a weird technicality (and also not one I remember) ;P


*Spoiler: Main quest spoilers*
Show


At least one of the Telvanni councilors must die (up to all of them if you're particularly bloodthirsty or trollish), and one Redoran councilor is necessary to kill as well.

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> *Spoiler: Main quest spoilers*
> Show
> 
> 
> At least one of the Telvanni councilors must die (up to all of them if you're particularly bloodthirsty or trollish), and one Redoran councilor is necessary to kill as well.


*Spoiler*
Show

The Telvanni don't care. It will cost you two quests from his Mouth, and skip the quest to kill him anyway. Don't remember the Redoran side of things, but i think you also get autopromoted at that point.

And I think killing literally all of the Telvanni councillors only work if you're one yourself.

----------


## Resileaf

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> The Telvanni don't care. It will cost you two quests from his Mouth, and skip the quest to kill him anyway. Don't remember the Redoran side of things, but i think you also get autopromoted at that point.
> 
> And I think killing literally all of the Telvanni councillors only work if you're one yourself.


Well I imagine that's more me thinking that if you were to join a House, you'd want to do all their quests so missing out on some makes their questline feel less complete, so to speak.

----------


## MCerberus

It's splatfest weekend. It's actually really interesting if you take a step back how Splatoon passively builds community. All the levels turn into a rave, the artists are passively encouraged to hype up their team, and the city has neon-color coded hype billboards everywhere. This is on top of the normal NPC lines that really drive home the primary goal is FRESHNESS instead of getting kills. Spatoon has shocking low amounts of actual player interaction but it feels like you're partying with all the other cephalescants.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

While trying to work out what to play I saw that Inquisitor: Martyr was on sale for under £10. So I grabbed it and I've now played the first handful of missions.

Now a Diablo-clone isn't how I'd have imagined an Inquisition-focused game to go, but it turns out it's exactly the kind of 40k game I didn't know I wanted. Currently on the easy difficulty because yeah, I'll do another run on normal when I've started to learn the mechanics, but it's just great. I love that skills are tied to your weapon, it means that carrying around a second set feel more sensible. I've gone for a shotgun assassin build, and dodging in to fire off a bunch of shots before retreating is fun.

Although seriously, only one female option out of four classes? I know that Warhammer is for teenaged boys, but can we have some ladies in power armour as well please! I'll take a Sister of Battle corset.

It's being played very serious, but the inherent comedy of the setting shines through. I've got a smile on my face the whole time due to how silly this all is, like the ineffective super soldier corpse you find early on, defending the Imperium about as effectively as they did when alive. But hey, at least it won't steal credit for my work like I'm some kind of Guardsman.

God, why did it take them so long to make an Inquisition game. This is ten times as engaging and fun as Space Marine was.

----------


## Rynjin

> It's being played very serious, but the inherent comedy of the setting shines through. I've got a smile on my face the whole time due to how silly this all is, like the ineffective super soldier corpse you find early on, defending the Imperium about as effectively as they did when alive. But hey, at least it won't steal credit for my work like I'm some kind of Guardsman.


The inherent comedy of hitting Warp overload and spontaneously generating demons or exploding is pretty great too. Martyr's a fun game.

----------


## warty goblin

Martyr is a good time. I appreciate how Neocore always comes at things like 25 degrees off of the standard approach. A cover system in a aRPG? Weird, but delightful. 

Still ambling through King's Bounty 2. I don't fully understand why I like this game so much. Sure the combat is good, but combat is not that much of the game, as in I can easily play for an hour and not fight anything. Mostly it's just pretty low key questing, in that B-grade RPG way. Some of them are pretty involved, in the sense of using a lot of stages and information gathering, and they often feed into each other, but there's very little in the way of choice. 

Honestly maybe that's why I enjoy them. Choice has never been my favorite part of RPGs, and losing most of it honestly is more a relief than a cost. It also helps allow the PC to be an actual character with a personality, the Sorceress character I'm playing is a sarcastic noble with a massive sense of entitlement and a healthy disdain for the usual hapless RPG quest givers that litter her path. She kind of a horrible person and I love it.

----------


## Zevox

Just wrapped up Majora's Mask. And wow, I thought I remembered that the Fierce Deity's Mask made the final boss fight easy, but I did not remember the half of it. It cuts through Majora's Mask like a hot knife through butter in all three phases of the fight. I almost feel like I should redo that without using it just to have the fight not be so easy that even the easiest mini-bosses of the game were harder.

Anyway, game's good, as nearly all Zelda games are. I did remember more of it than I thought as time went on - only needed to check a guide for a few hearts worth of pieces of heart before going to the final boss (though I wound up not getting them all due to missing one somewhere along the way that I thought I got, and not being willing to go back and double-check all of them to find out which one it was), and managed to collect all of the Stray Fairies in each dungeon without too much trouble. I do still feel like it's on the weaker side of the series personally, though. It's so short, and ending resolution is pretty underwhelming, with Skull Kid just learning "oh, I guess my Giant friends hadn't forgotten about me after all... woops." A lot of the many masks the game gives you to collect don't do a heck of a lot, either. The transformation ones are great of course, and there's some good ones among the normal ones, but a lot are just used for one side-quest for a single piece of heart, and a couple you can't even say that about. Probably the most useless is the Circus Leader's Mask, which is literally only useful for an event you need to complete without it in order to obtain it in the first place.

Oh and I hate whoever designed the Goht-masked kid's mini-dungeon in the Moon. Goddamn that thing was a pain. The rolling Goron does not control nearly well enough to make a course like that for it.

Still, there's some really good dungeon design, the transformation masks are fun (especially the Zora), some of the game's mini-bosses were surprisingly kind of challenging (thinking mainly of the bubble-covered eye monster especially), and there's a lot of fun ideas all around. It just feels like it adds up to less than the sum of its parts to me somehow. Maybe the fact that it's kind of doomed to always be in Ocarina of Time's shadow plays into it, it's hard not to compare the two given it uses so many of Ocarina's assets, and Ocarina just feels like so much more of an epic adventure, and provides so many more places to explore and dungeons to complete, and a more fun villain to fight against, which are more what the series' draw is to me than the myriad side-quests that Majora's Mask offers instead.

----------


## Zombimode

Finally picked up *Solasta*

Pretty fun so far  :Small Smile: 
Probably my favourite feature is the emergent characterisation and party dynamics out of the tag-dependent responses. Must have been quite the effort of recording all those lines.
I also didn't expect anything like this. In most party based rpgs where the player creates the party from the ground up (like Icewind Dale) the characters have NO characterisation in game. The only instances that does something similar as Solasta that I can think of are the games of the Nordlandtrilogie (uh.... Realms of Arcania in english I believe) - a series of DSA (uh... The Black Eye?) crpgs from the 90s that where very much ahead of their time and are still unmatched in some aspects.


Solasta has sadly also been the source of some frustration - all of them can be attributed to one thing: D&D 5e.

Normally rpg systems that I don't like for tabletop don't bother my when used for crpgs. The reasons why I dislike a system may be irrelevant within a crpg and/or the system gets changed to better suit the needs of the crpg.

But it turns out many reasons why I dislike 5e are in full swing in Solasta! And the by a large margin worst offender is... Concentration! Gah, I _hate_ Concentration.
It makes spellcasters feel miserable. It takes away options: "Hm, a Sleet Storm on that ramp could be nice. 'That would break your Fly spell.' What? Ok, fine, another round of shooting a Cantrip, I guess."
It's the worst for Clerics. Offensive, defensive, reactionary - doesn't matter, EVERYTHING has Concentration. What I'm supposed to do in a fight? Twiddle my thumps? Because that is exactly what my cleric has been doing for 90% of the fights after the cast of Bless in round 1.

And don't get me started on Skills. I'm now convinced that D&D 5e doesn't actually has a skill system. Instead it has tags that work as a conversation starter between player and GM. I would not be suprised if that fact that you're a level 10 elven ranger with _proficiency_ in Survival is much more important than the piddly +5 modifier you might have.

All in all, D&D 5e is _the worst_ D&D-like system for a crpg. I sincerely hope that Larian takes some big liberties for Baldurs Gate 3.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> The inherent comedy of hitting Warp overload and spontaneously generating demons or exploding is pretty great too. Martyr's a fun game.


40k works great when you can sit back and laugh at stuff like that. Did you know that Terminator Armour is actually a radiation suit? (Hence the Invulnerable Save.)




> Martyr is a good time. I appreciate how Neocore always comes at things like 25 degrees off of the standard approach. A cover system in a aRPG? Weird, but delightful.


Yeah, it's interesting. I don't use it, but I suspect I would of playing any other class. There's quite a few decisions here different from the norm that just work, I think it was actually designed for a controller rather than keyboard+mouse, but even if not using a controller is just really fun.


As to Solasta, I ended up dropping it due to a couple of major 5eisms. A big one was bounded accuracy, because it just made everything too swingy (a lot of low rolls in an investigation section can leave your characters looking like idiots) and the way spellcasting monsters are designed. If a spellcasting monster has a decent selection of spells they can decimate your party due to getting higher level slots than you. Say hello to having to tank 8d6 damage at level 3!

It's a shame, because it's a good turn based tactics game in every way except the use of D&D5e.

----------


## Eldan

Oh, 5E _definitely_ doesn't have a skill system. Never had one.

----------


## Anteros

Something about 5e in general just doesn't translate well to games. Every attempt I've seen has been super lackluster.

----------


## Taevyr

Yeah, the swinginess is my biggest pet peeve in 5e. Bounded accuracy isn't a bad idea, but not with the swinginess of a d20 attached.

----------


## Cespenar

> Something about 5e in general just doesn't translate well to games. Every attempt I've seen has been super lackluster.


That's only 1% about 5e. 5e is just a polished, simplified 3.5. It's mostly about there not being a Black Isle or early Bioware in 2016 forward.

Solasta works perfectly well, for example. Slap on some English-speaking writers in there, and you would get a 8+/10 game.

By the way, I agree with most criticisms about 5e, what with bounded accuracy and skills and whatnot, but they are <1% of why a CRPG succeeds or not.

----------


## Yora

I mean, Baldur's Gate was an incredible success, despite using AD&D rules.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I mean, Baldur's Gate was an incredible success, despite using AD&D rules.


Yeah, but going back to it now, BG1 is kind of dull. Maybe BG2 is a lot more engaging, but the first game suffers from Bioware still finding their feet.

Like gameplay-wise it's fine, but it needed something more built on top of it. Maybe it gets better after you reach Baldur's Gate itself, I never managed to get past Naskell.

----------


## Yora

I replayed Baldur's Gate many more times than Baldur's Gate 2, though.
I think I probably replayed it start to finish four more times in the last 20 years. But I still have never managed to finish even just Baldur's Gate 2 since I played through Throne of Bhaal when it came out.

I still have my save from the last time I made it to Spellhold. Which according to the file information was in March 2020. Since I finished everything except the main quest already on that save, I still plan to continue it eventually and finally finish my second playthrough of the whole series.
But while I can totally see myself replaying Baldur's Gate another time or two in the coming decades, I'm pretty sure I'll not be picking up BG2 again after this is done.

Currently, games that I have been actively playing this months are Anno 1404, Morrowind, Homeworld, and StarCraft.
And the games that I have already lined up to play soon after are Command & Conquer 1+2, Thief, WarCraft 3, Spellforce, and The Longest Journey. (I also want to replay Metal Gear Solid 1-4 and Witcher 2+3 eventually. Oh, and maybe Commandos?) With a replay backlog like this, I think I might be good for the next 25 years before I have to start looking for new games.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Batcathat

Aside from the obvious differences in character power level, I feel like the main difference between BG1 and BG2 is how the game's content is distributed. BG1 has a ton of more areas on the map, but a lot of them are fairly samey with mostly random encounters, while BG2 have fewer areas, but they feel  to me, at least  filled with more content. Potential party members are the same way, BG1 has more, and BG2 have fewer but with a lot more dialogue and such.

----------


## Mark Hall

> If I recall correctly, the Telvanni and Mages Guild also go to war and are also mutually exclusive.


Never actually had the problem. Played through as a Telvanni and Mage's Guild, wound up in charge of both... as much as anyone can be in charge of the Telvanni, I suppose.

----------


## Eldan

Return to Monkey Island is a disappointment. 

Actually, of the five acts, the first four are quite good. A few funny jokes, a few decent puzzles, even if they are all a bit easy, all I want from a Monkey Island, really. 

Then... nothing. The last long series of puzzles is annoyingly bad. Not well designed or interesting and then the story just ends with a big nothing. And the worst thing is, there were a few interesting story threads that were _never_ adressed again, it just ends. *Spoiler*
Show

I was waiting for Le Chuck's crew to do something, mainly. You befriend them, they are increasingly unhappy with what Le Chuck is doing, they don't really dare to say it, I was expecting in the end you were going to turn his crew against him, or they would convince him to leave the secret. Then there's this entire thread about how obsessed Guybrush and LeChuck are with a probably meaningless secret. That... doesn't go anywhere either. No one learns anything, there just isn't a secret, and no one even _reacts_ to there being no secret. Everyone hates how destructive Guybrush is? Yeah, Elaine mentions it, then says "Oh well, that's fine", and that's _never mentioned again_. It just feels like the team gave up halfway through the last act, roll credits. It's extremely unsatisfying.

----------


## Mechalich

The way the AD&D 2e power curve works BGI hits its conclusion right as the characters start to hit the sweet spot of interesting options, while BGII opens there. Consequently BGI begins with a numbing slog, while BGII ends there (especially if you actually get all the good stuff in BGII and transform the final chapters into a cakewalk). Arguably its Siege of Dragonspear that takes place right in the sweet spot of character power, unfortunately its story is rather weak and unmemorable.

----------


## Wookieetank

> Return to Monkey Island is a disappointment.


If you haven't played any of Wadjet eye's games, I highly recommend them for anyone who enjoys point & click adventures.  Primordia is probably my favorite with post apocalyptic robots and a lot of computer/nerd humor, but the Blackwell series is also really good, particularly if you like Noir style stories and Resonance is an interesting techno thriller.  Really need to get back to finishing Gemini Rue...

----------


## Eldan

> If you haven't played any of Wadjet eye's games, I highly recommend them for anyone who enjoys point & click adventures.  Primordia is probably my favorite with post apocalyptic robots and a lot of computer/nerd humor, but the Blackwell series is also really good, particularly if you like Noir style stories and Resonance is an interesting techno thriller.  Really need to get back to finishing Gemini Rue...


I have played at least a dozen Wadjet games, actually, and not enough people talk about them. I might need to get a few more of them. Agreed Primordia is probably the best. I also like Unavowed, which you haven't mentioned.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Arguably its Siege of Dragonspear that takes place right in the sweet spot of character power, unfortunately its story is rather weak and unmemorable.


It was a nice idea to have an obviously good antagonist, but they did somewhat undermine it by making her second in command slightly more obviously evil than **** Dastardly. And about as effective a threat.

(Plus it had that mid period modern dialogue "nice, nasty, snarky" three choices in every dialog)

----------


## Wookieetank

> I have played at least a dozen Wadjet games, actually, and not enough people talk about them. I might need to get a few more of them. Agreed Primordia is probably the best. I also like Unavowed, which you haven't mentioned.


Didn't realize that was even a thing.  Will have to look into it (probably should just see which games of theirs I don't have and add them to my wishlist).  Even their Puzzlebot game, while simple and short, felt really well put together.

----------


## Mark Hall

arrrrrgggghhhh.

My game, when hanging out on my wife's laptop (while she knits or draws), has been Shadowrun Returns. Played it several times, and I've got a favorite character: Troll Rigger/Decker with just enough Physad to cover some gaps (since you're carrying two drones and a deck, your only real option is unarmed... so, with Killing Hands, Magic Protection, and Stride, you're doing pretty well).

However, just as I'm about to go to the mental hospital? Hangs on the loading screen. Several times, now.

----------


## Rynjin

Have you tried turning it off and on again verifying your game files?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> arrrrrgggghhhh.
> 
> My game, when hanging out on my wife's laptop (while she knits or draws), has been Shadowrun Returns. Played it several times, and I've got a favorite character: Troll Rigger/Decker with just enough Physad to cover some gaps (since you're carrying two drones and a deck, your only real option is unarmed... so, with Killing Hands, Magic Protection, and Stride, you're doing pretty well).
> 
> However, just as I'm about to go to the mental hospital? Hangs on the loading screen. Several times, now.


Probably not a bad jack of all trades, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to give up the ability to equip top tier drones or the Xcalibur. I could see doing something similar with an ork though.

Not sure I could do another run of Returns though, Dragonfall is so much better. Which I returned to today to continue my human rigger/decker run (with emphasis on the rigger side, as so far I've come across relatively few matrix portions). I've decided not to do the Lodge missions this run, so the end might be a bit more difficult.

----------


## MCerberus

Dragonfall kind of bounced me when a side mission railroaded me into a fight against enemies that can one-round me and also either took out one of my teammates or made them berserk. That may have been interesting if I were further in but...

"my last save outside this was WHEN?"

----------


## Eldan

> Didn't realize that was even a thing.  Will have to look into it (probably should just see which games of theirs I don't have and add them to my wishlist).  Even their Puzzlebot game, while simple and short, felt really well put together.


Unavowed is apparently also set in the Blackwell universe? If so, the connection is quite lose. It's an Urban fantasy investigation game with a  pretty cool party mechanic. You have four party members, who all different magical powers, but you can only bring two of them on each case. But each case can be solved with any of them, just differently.

----------


## Batcathat

> Unavowed is apparently also set in the Blackwell universe? If so, the connection is quite lose. It's an Urban fantasy investigation game with a  pretty cool party mechanic. You have four party members, who all different magical powers, but you can only bring two of them on each case. But each case can be solved with any of them, just differently.


Well, this post just cost me 14.99 .  :Small Smile:  (Okay, so I did also take the time to watch one trailer and read like two reviews before buying it, which is a testament to my self control, I think). 

Despite loving adventure games, I had somehow completely missed Wadjet Eye Games, so I foresee this thread costing me more money in the future.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Eldan

There's only like two companies left out there who make old-style point and click adventures. If you like them, you need to know about Wadjet.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Dragonfall kind of bounced me when a side mission railroaded me into a fight against enemies that can one-round me and also either took out one of my teammates or made them berserk. That may have been interesting if I were further in but...
> 
> "my last save outside this was WHEN?"


Don't worry, the original version of Returns had no manual save functionality at all (not that the game strictly needs it, but sometimes you want to save halfway through a map). At some point they added the ability to roll back to a previous autosave, but I'm not sure when (it's in Hong Kong, but I've used like like once).

Dragonfall and Hong Kong suffer slighty from being more open. In both cases relatively difficult missions unlock early on, but the game doesn't give fair warning. In DMS you pretty much only have one option for your next run at any point, I've found one optional run, maybe two if you can skip Coyote's loyalty mission, so there isn't really the same issue (but DMS has the issue of needing to hire mercenaries). I can think of another mission that annoys me (Eiger's loyalty mission), but that's further into the game.

----------


## Zombimode

> There's only like two companies left out there who make old-style point and click adventures. If you like them, you need to know about Wadjet.


What's the other company you're thinking of?

The only other name that I can think of is Daedalic - but they have stopped releasing adventure games *ckeck wikipedia* _7 years_ ago  :Small Eek:

----------


## Eldan

> What's the other company you're thinking of?
> 
> The only other name that I can think of is Daedalic - but they have stopped releasing adventure games *ckeck wikipedia* _7 years_ ago



Yeah, I was thinking of Daedalic. 

They still seem to be publishing games in German? But very few and none I've heard of. Not a good sign. Geez. Seven years.

----------


## MCerberus

> Don't worry, the original version of Returns had no manual save functionality at all (not that the game strictly needs it, but sometimes you want to save halfway through a map). At some point they added the ability to roll back to a previous autosave, but I'm not sure when (it's in Hong Kong, but I've used like like once).
> 
> Dragonfall and Hong Kong suffer slighty from being more open. In both cases relatively difficult missions unlock early on, but the game doesn't give fair warning. In DMS you pretty much only have one option for your next run at any point, I've found one optional run, maybe two if you can skip Coyote's loyalty mission, so there isn't really the same issue (but DMS has the issue of needing to hire mercenaries). I can think of another mission that annoys me (Eiger's loyalty mission), but that's further into the game.


It didn't help that this mission was sold as a milk-run and tryout, just seeing if baby's first crew can do the objective. Then if you're right off the first story run you get smashed

----------


## Mr.Silver

> Well, this post just cost me 14.99 .  (Okay, so I did also take the time to watch one trailer and read like two reviews before buying it, which is a testament to my self control, I think). 
> 
> Despite loving adventure games, I had somehow completely missed Wadjet Eye Games, so I foresee this thread costing me more money in the future.


Oh yeah, you're going to be in for a fun time. Besides their in-house developed titles (_Unavowed_, _Blackwell_, _The Shivah_, etc.) they also publish a number of other even more indie developed adventure games, which are also generally good (_Technobabylon_ and _Gemini Rue_ probably would be my two top picks, but pretty much everything is at least decent).
Most of their catalogue is on sale on GOG at the moment, so if you want to snag any of them this would probably be as good a time as any.

----------


## Mark Hall

> arrrrrgggghhhh.
> 
> My game, when hanging out on my wife's laptop (while she knits or draws), has been Shadowrun Returns. Played it several times, and I've got a favorite character: Troll Rigger/Decker with just enough Physad to cover some gaps (since you're carrying two drones and a deck, your only real option is unarmed... so, with Killing Hands, Magic Protection, and Stride, you're doing pretty well).
> 
> However, just as I'm about to go to the mental hospital? Hangs on the loading screen. Several times, now.


Since it was cloudsaved with GOG, I played it on my PC; hopefully, that bypassed the problem going forward.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> It didn't help that this mission was sold as a milk-run and tryout, just seeing if baby's first crew can do the objective. Then if you're right off the first story run you get smashed


Ah, the first Lodge mission I believe. Yeah, that's not a great run, it unlocks early but when things get tough you're going to be down a character.

On the other hand I think it has what's probably my favourite dialogue option of the game ('Yes, but that's not important right now').

----------


## Morgaln

> Yeah, I was thinking of Daedalic. 
> 
> They still seem to be publishing games in German? But very few and none I've heard of. Not a good sign. Geez. Seven years.


According to Wikipedia, their last release that they developed themselves was State of Mind in 2018, so not 7 years yet. And they seem to be publishing games from other developers regularly.
Of course I am still very cross with Daedalic for the terrible ending of Goodbye Deponia, so I haven't really kept up on what they are doing.

----------


## Eldan

I remember being fine with Goodbye Deponia. I just never wanted to play Deponia 4. 

Also, Gemini Rue is just 2.50 on gog right now. I haven't played that yet, need to get it.

----------


## WritersBlock

I still need to play Wing Commander 4: The Price of Freedom. Its in my Gog library but not installed yet and I played through Wing Commander 3: Heart of The Tiger not that long ago. 

It was great, other than the two mission's with those "skipper" missiles.

----------


## Rodin

> I still need to play Wing Commander 4: The Price of Freedom. Its in my Gog library but not installed yet and I played through Wing Commander 3: Heart of The Tiger not that long ago. 
> 
> It was great, other than the two mission's with those "skipper" missiles.


That mission was so hard even the novelization fails it.

----------


## GloatingSwine

Like the infamous Redemption mission in X-Wing that got turned into an unwinnable Kobayashi Maru training scenario in the Rogue Squadron books.

----------


## Mark Hall

I kind of want to play Privateer again. My computer crashed, so I lost the playthrough I was doing, but once you get an Orion with max engines and shields, you can literally fly through most ships without significant damage. 

The Orion is simply an awesome ship. Just ****ing TANK. I'd love to be able to hire a tail gunner to work the turret in the back.

----------


## Cespenar

> I remember being fine with Goodbye Deponia. I just never wanted to play Deponia 4. 
> 
> Also, Gemini Rue is just 2.50 on gog right now. I haven't played that yet, need to get it.


Couldn't really get into Deponia despite loving the genre and anything else that they produced. Something about the humor didn't click with me, I guess.

Also love the Wadjet Eye discography in general, but their final title seems to be horror themed, which is a pass for me unfortunately.

----------


## Mr.Silver

> Also love the Wadjet Eye discography in general, but their final title seems to be horror themed, which is a pass for me unfortunately.


Their last two, from the look of it, although _The Excavation of Hob's Barrow_ has only just come out and I haven't had a chance to get hold of it yet, so I can't confirm that (_Strangeland_ definitely is though). I'll probably pick it up once the next paycheck goes through.

_Old Skies_ looks like it should be more their usual tone, from what I've seen, although obviously we won't know for sure until it's done.

----------


## NRSASD

Having finished torching Louisville in Project Zomboid, I am now introducing a friend to Valheim! Its a great time so far

----------


## Cespenar

> Their last two, from the look of it, although _The Excavation of Hob's Barrow_ has only just come out and I haven't had a chance to get hold of it yet, so I can't confirm that (_Strangeland_ definitely is though). I'll probably pick it up once the next paycheck goes through.


Their last two then, true.

I mean, I couldn't really fault them either, since they seem to be trying out every genre out there one by one.

----------


## Cygnia

Finished up "Chicken Police" and enjoyed it for the most part.  Gave up on "The Trials" as it aggravates my motion sickness something fierce.  And, unlike "Talos Principle" (which is still on hold for me), there's no option to change the POV.

Dabbled on "Pavilion" (another point & click puzzler). Gorgeous art & music, but it's not grabbing me yet.  So now I'm trying "Iron Danger".  It has a "turn back time" mechanic that I'm still not getting the hang of yet.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

*Spoiler: Shadowrun: Dragonfall*
Show

Urgh, the Apex mission. So I decided to try freeing it, and was about two turns away from completion when the drones managed to destroy the console. I'll give it another go tonight, it's much easier with a PC Decker than with Blitz (even if my ESP control is subpar).

I'd switch to killing the blighter, but I've already done that once and in the scheme of things APEX is small fry. Oh, they'd be a big deal in the wireless Matrix, but the 2050s and 2060s are the decades of much more powerful AI than it. Maybe I'll do a third run where I kill it again next year.

----------


## warty goblin

King's Bounty 2 continues to be an excellent source of enjoyable fantasy nonsense. 

Case in point, yesterday I did a quest that involved reassembling the skeleton of an amnesiac talking skull. This revealed that one of my character's ancestors had been an idiot, and the skull belonged to a mildly infamous necromancer. I then fought the  necromancer's revived army and destroyed it, which caused the poor undead chap to feel so bad he just wanted to sulk in the swamp for all eternity. 

I love stuff like that. KB2 also has the huge advantage of having relatively little combat. That whole quest had a single fight in it, and a lot of quests have none at all. You have to win fights to open up new areas of the map, but there's nothing like the density you see in most RPGs, and once you open up an area, it stays open. This lets fights feel like a change of pace, and something that actually impacts quests and the game world, rather than just throwing some more dudes at you because you haven't killed anything in like 3 minutes and might be getting bored.

----------


## Wookieetank

So I picked up a Steam Deck and it came in over the weekend.  About 1/4 of my library is playable on it without any jiggery pokery on my part, and more importantly, allows me to play my metroidvanians on the go (and with a controller).  Maybe I'm weird, but metroidvanians on a keyboard just don't work well for me.  Was able to get past where I was stuck in Guacamelee, and then get through a significant portion of the game in one sitting.  Spelunky is still kicking my donkey though.

Only downsides to the Steam Deck so far, is the heat vents are on the back, so you have to be careful how you hold it, and it only lasts 2ish hours between charging, even with low end games.  Might be able to extend that with turning off/down some of the background of steam features, but haven't had a chance to poke around for sure yet.

----------


## Batcathat

Yesterday I finally started playing the aforementioned Unavowed and so far it's living up to my rather high expectations. Maaaybe a little bit too easy so far, but that seems likely to increase over time (not to mention that if it wasn't, I would probably complain about it being too hard instead.  :Small Tongue:  ).

----------


## Anteros

> So I picked up a Steam Deck and it came in over the weekend.  About 1/4 of my library is playable on it without any jiggery pokery on my part, and more importantly, allows me to play my metroidvanians on the go (and with a controller).  Maybe I'm weird, but metroidvanians on a keyboard just don't work well for me.  Was able to get past where I was stuck in Guacamelee, and then get through a significant portion of the game in one sitting.  Spelunky is still kicking my donkey though.
> 
> Only downsides to the Steam Deck so far, is the heat vents are on the back, so you have to be careful how you hold it, and it only lasts 2ish hours between charging, even with low end games.  Might be able to extend that with turning off/down some of the background of steam features, but haven't had a chance to poke around for sure yet.


Not sure what the benefit is compared to a mid-tier gaming laptop.  The fact that it's handheld?

----------


## factotum

> Not sure what the benefit is compared to a mid-tier gaming laptop.  The fact that it's handheld?


And has a built-in controller. If you want to use one of those with a gaming laptop you have to carry a separate item and plug it in. Mind you, this kind of sounds like asking "What benefit did a Gameboy offer over a TV plug-in console?", and we obviously know there were enough people who wanted that portability to answer the question!

----------


## Wookieetank

> And has a built-in controller. If you want to use one of those with a gaming laptop you have to carry a separate item and plug it in. Mind you, this kind of sounds like asking "What benefit did a Gameboy offer over a TV plug-in console?", and we obviously know there were enough people who wanted that portability to answer the question!


Pretty much this.  And the fact a laptop has to be pretty consistently plugged in once you've had it more than a year, makes it overall less portable.

Seems not downloading a dozen or more games in the background while playing on it significantly improves the battery life (and has it run noticeably cooler as well).  Think I put 3ish hours into using it yesterday and still have a little over half the battery left.  

Down to 2 areas left in Guacamelee, and am just overall impressed with the game.  Between the art style, the music, and the humor, it makes for a very cohesive game.  Still at the stage of giving Spelunky dirty looks and the silent treatment though.

----------


## Eldan

> Yesterday I finally started playing the aforementioned Unavowed and so far it's living up to my rather high expectations. Maaaybe a little bit too easy so far, but that seems likely to increase over time (not to mention that if it wasn't, I would probably complain about it being too hard instead.  ).


I don't remember it ever being hard, but it does a few clever things. Also with all of the later cases being able to be solved with different party combinations giving you different clues and different ways around problems.

How far along are you?

----------


## Batcathat

> I don't remember it ever being hard, but it does a few clever things. Also with all of the later cases being able to be solved with different party combinations giving you different clues and different ways around problems.
> 
> How far along are you?


Probably not very far, since I'm still picking up new party members. My last missions yesterday was making friends with the disgraced detective and the ghost whisperer (so... not far along enough to learn people's names, I guess).

----------


## Anteros

> And has a built-in controller. If you want to use one of those with a gaming laptop you have to carry a separate item and plug it in. Mind you, this kind of sounds like asking "What benefit did a Gameboy offer over a TV plug-in console?", and we obviously know there were enough people who wanted that portability to answer the question!


I very much doubt Gameboy would have been as successful as it was without the exclusive titles. 

Portability is indeed nice, but my biggest worry with the steam deck is Valve's history of releasing products and then barely supporting them.

----------


## Wookieetank

> I very much doubt Gameboy would have been as successful as it was without the exclusive titles.


It is wild to think about how the Gameboy was more successful than the Game Gear (Gameboy outsold Game Gear 10:1), despite having lower quality graphics and no back light.  Nintendo sure knows what its doing with a handheld.

----------


## Erloas

Gameboy didn't have to compete with a world of smartphones and the laptops of that era were much larger and much less capable compared to PCs and consoles of that generation. 

I think most dedicated portable gaming devices are going to really struggle to justify their existence.

Although at this point phone gaming seems to be stuck in the loop of "no company is making phone games worth paying for" and "we're not going to put a lot of effort into any mobile games because people don't pay for them." So they go down the grinding microtransactions route that mostly ignores actual gameplay.

----------


## warty goblin

Yeah, the only things I've ever found worth playing on the phone are ports of old PC games. Which then just reminds me I'm playing a perfectly fine game using a touch joystick controller, and boy does that suck.

----------


## WritersBlock

Well, sadly the sequel to Eternal Senia "Eternal Senia Hydrangea After The Rain-" is still mobile only, so that is the only way to play that game....

----------


## Anteros

{Scrubbed}

----------


## GloatingSwine

Started a new run of Stellaris with Toxoids. Playing Knights of the Toxic God origin. 

The start is going brilliantly, I'm Auth/Mil/Spi and the first species I encountered are Auth/Spi/Phi and a Megacorp*, so I jumped straight on a commercial pact with them and I'm leeching off their much larger trade economy to get huge quantities of energy for the early game, and gave me access to colonise all planets at 70% because they're also Lithoids. That's letting me pay the curators so I can super-tech-rush the start and paying for the situation costs.  I also rolled the Zroni as my precursor so I've gone into a super early psionic ascension which I'll be getting second stage on soon.

Only problem is that I'm absolutely bleeding consumer goods because I'm top heavy with specialist pops (Duellists, Death Chroniclers, Scientists, etc), and I keep having to top them up on the market.  Advancing tech should help that situation and I'm probably going to need to fleet up hard and fast because my other neighbour is a bandit kingdom, and I'm going to have to go and do chivalry to them eventually.


I've also been chewing through the Dawn of War series, going to try and do every game, every faction. Currently on Space Marines in Dark Crusade. The nostalgia is still fun but the pathfinding really does get annoying when you have multiple squads in a control group and they have better ideas about where to stand than where I told them to. (And especially if you have vehicles and squads together, that _really_ messes the pathfinding up).

----------


## warty goblin

Hit a wall in KB2. All the side quest stuff is gated behind a couple of main quest fights. One of these is merely extremely difficult, I have no idea how to beat the other.

The difficult but probably doable fight is against a real humdinger of an enemy army. A strong cavalry hero unit  another punchy regular cavalry stack, two units of weak but mobile birds, and a really annoying full stack of Dwarf flamethrowers, who just wreck face.

The difficulty is that the cavalry units and birds have higher initiatives than my dudes. Between their speed and how much more damage attacking does than counter-attacking, by the time my dudes can move usually my front line is already beat up and stuck in melee, while the birds have zoned my archers.

I think my solution is going to be to switch out all my items for a max leadership build so I can get as many units per stack as possible, swap in melee units for the archers, drop some major debuffs on the Dwarf flamethrowers, and try to stomp the enemy into the mud as fast as possible. An early summon spell may also be useful for a numerical edge.

----------


## Cygnia

Demo'ed "Slay the Princess" on Steam.  Twisted visual novel sort of game -- perfect for this time of year.

----------


## GloatingSwine

The Knights of the Toxic God continue to be blessed by RNGesus. My first two delves into the Shroud gave me precognitive interface and psi-jump drive, and fleeted up hard enough that my megacorp neighbour was willing to become a protectorate, bashed the bandits the other side and made them a tributary (which immediately turned them into a protectorate because I'm so far ahead in tech, and they're starting to get loyal now). I now have one Scholarium vassal and three protectorates. I'm feeding the bandits science now so I can turn them into a Bulwark once they've got enough to graduate from Protectorate status.

My Lord Preceptor has decided that he, in fact, is the true scion of the Toxic God and declared himself God Emperor as well. Going to decide between trying to expand my vassal count forever or go full imperium.

----------


## Cespenar

Trying out another two indies as usual -- *Foretales* turned out to be a pretty enjoyable Hand of Fate-like, if anyone have played that. Minus the 3d fighting bits though, which is a plus. It's basically an adventure/RPG but played with cards.

*Northgard*, on the other hand, is a RTS similar to the new Dune game, which is like 50% RTS and 50% 4x (or something), which is nice for those of us who don't like going on high APMs. It's  Viking-themed, and there's definitely some tabletop "Eurogame" inspirations there, with mechanics similar to worker placement and such. A nice, low-sweat strategy affair, which is refreshing.




> Finished up "Chicken Police" and enjoyed it for the most part.


That looks nice, might try it.

----------


## warty goblin

> Trying out another two indies as usual -- *Foretales* turned out to be a pretty enjoyable Hand of Fate-like, if anyone have played that. Minus the 3d fighting bits though, which is a plus. It's basically an adventure/RPG but played with cards.


I really wish I could get into digital card games, but either I'm bouncing off them, or they bounce off me. Some of it is that they're almost invariably roguelites, and structurally I don't really like roguelites. A pure roguelike is fine, that's just a dungeon crawl with permadeath and randomization, but a roguelite on the one hand basically incentivizes failure, since you need to die to unlock the stuff you need to actually have a shot at success, but on the other penalizes failure with making me redo the same crap again and again. 

The other bit is that the style of card game indie card games have settled on is very gamist Mechanics Uber Alles in nature. You set up a borderline broken combo, you do that combo. Then you do the same combo to the next dude. And the next. It's very Pathfinder 2e, just with digital cards instead of a multi attack penalty.

The other other problem is that the first one of these I ever played much of was Erranorth Reborn, which does odd and interesting things with dynamic story/quest generation, has a stupid number of pretty distinct playstyles (coming from somebody who doesn't usually care that much), is oriented much more towards you being some flavor of semi-ordinary fantasy schmuck, and has a huge library of hot fantasy cheesecake vampire babes you can play as. Or elf babes if you prefer, its pretty heterodox in the fantasy babe department.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Honestly I can totally see why a card battling game would go roguelite, it's just a natural fit. If you're not going for a big, epic campaign you can lock the player into a specific deck for a run and let them unlock new cards to try out at the end. With short enough runs you don't have to worry about players putting the game down and coming back two weeks later having forgotten their strategy.

On the other hand while the combination just makes sense I can see why it wouldn't appeal to people. I personally don't particularly like roguelikes, but I think I could deal with it in a card battling game. Although if I'm playing a card game I'd much rather have actual cards to handle.

----------


## Cespenar

> The other bit is that the style of card game indie card games have settled on is very gamist Mechanics Uber Alles in nature. You set up a borderline broken combo, you do that combo. Then you do the same combo to the next dude. And the next. It's very Pathfinder 2e, just with digital cards instead of a multi attack penalty.


Foretales is not like that at all, but I get your drift. The "optimization" sub-sub-genre is an iffy one. Games can devolve from "oh cool, nice synergy" to full-OCD in a heartbeat.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> On the other hand while the combination just makes sense I can see why it wouldn't appeal to people. I personally don't particularly like roguelikes, but I think I could deal with it in a card battling game. Although if I'm playing a card game I'd much rather have actual cards to handle.


Yeeeeeeeah, the only roguelite I like is Hades. I just can't get into a game where all my customization options are randomized and thus aren't retained.

----------


## Rynjin

> Yeeeeeeeah, the only roguelite I like is Hades. I just can't get into a game where all my customization options are randomized and thus aren't retained.


A good Roguelite should definitely have some method of retaining customization, and I think most of them are pretty similar to Hades honestly. In Hades you get to:

-Retain increased stat totals
-Choose your weapon/weapon variant

And...that's about it, really. In a lot of card game Roguelikes you get to:

-Choose your character/class/equivalent
-Choose your starting deck

In both cases you get to define your overall playstyle going in but everything else is randomized from there. You don't get to choose outright your God Boons or what cards you add to your deck, which is where a lot of your power comes from.

Only true Roguelikes COMPLETELY sack your progress when you die. The only recent true Roguelike I can remember playing is Noita.

----------


## WritersBlock

As far as Roguelike's/Roguelite's. The one I have played the most is "The Consuming Shadow" by Yahtzee Croshaw. When you first start it can be quite punishing but you get exp after each playthrough, win or lose. Gain some levels and subsequent playthroughs get more and more fun as you unlock more levels and star benefits. (And unlock extra characters)

----------


## MCerberus

Octopath showed up on game pass, which is good because my switch cart when missing over a year ago when I barely had the crew together.

And sweet spawn of JJ Abrams did they decide to hide their very good sprite/voxel work behind absurd amounts of post processing.

----------


## warty goblin

> Foretales is not like that at all, but I get your drift. The "optimization" sub-sub-genre is an iffy one. Games can devolve from "oh cool, nice synergy" to full-OCD in a heartbeat.


That's good to know, and bumps Foretales up to actually interesting status. 




> As far as Roguelike's/Roguelite's. The one I have played the most is "The Consuming Shadow" by Yahtzee Croshaw. When you first start it can be quite punishing but you get exp after each playthrough, win or lose. Gain some levels and subsequent playthroughs get more and more fun as you unlock more levels and star benefits. (And unlock extra characters)


That would be the thing I don't like about roguelites though. I don't mind losing a game, I don't mind particularly if the random elements set up a hard run by chance, and I don't mind starting out weak, but I really dislike being set up to lose. That just means I need to get stomped for like 4 hours before I've paid my noob tax and can actually play the game.

----------


## Mark Hall

I need to keep pushing on Wrath of the Righteous. Took a break to beat Aven Colony, again, but seldom have I been less interested in a sandbox for a game, and the central mystery of the campaign is completely superfluous... you're told part of a story at the end of every campaign mission, but you don't actually interact with it at all. "Keep an eye out for suspicious behavior. There will then be zero suspicious behavior you can see, and you have no way of contacting me."

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> That would be the thing I don't like about roguelites though. I don't mind losing a game, I don't mind particularly if the random elements set up a hard run by chance, and I don't mind starting out weak, but I really dislike being set up to lose. That just means I need to get stomped for like 4 hours before I've paid my noob tax and can actually play the game.


Honestly, Roguelikes tend to also have a noob tax in learning to game the systems and when to move to the next area. It's just that you can probably transfer most of it to other Roguelikes.

Honestly, the idea of doing continual runs where you slowly build up resources could be a decent structure outside of the randomised layout genre. The first thing that springs to mind is filling in a map and unlocking shortcuts for later runs (while resetting enemies, items, and bosses), but I'm sure people who spend their time designing games can come up with good 'set map, multiple runs' gameplay loops.


Anyway, I'm back to Shadowrun: Hong Kong again, and I really do think I prefer it to Dragonfall. I went ork again, because they're my favourite metatype, and made a decker because I'm not taking Is0bel along on every mission for the second playthrough in a row. The fact I'm capped at INT 8 rather than 9 shouldn't be too much of a deal, it'll encourage me to dedicate some Karma to meatspace combat.

Although as an ork I'm of course speccing into Strength/Body over Quickness, particularly as I began with a point in Close Combat. Specialising in cyber weapons instead of thwacking sticks or unarmed, because of course the first implant I get is the Molly Millions hand razors. Dermal armour for survivability is probably next on the list, although I'll also need wired Reflexes and cybereyed to go the full Molly. Do cybereyed even increase melee accuracy?

Cyberware+decks+programs means this is going to be one expensive build nuyen-wise. If I can afford it the last purchase will be hydraulic jack legs for the movement boost.

----------


## warty goblin

> Honestly, Roguelikes tend to also have a noob tax in learning to game the systems and when to move to the next area. It's just that you can probably transfer most of it to other Roguelikes.


I don't object to losing because I don't know how to win, because learning to play better is fun. I object to losing because the game hasn't given me the ability to win, because getting my face stomped without the ability to avoid getting stomped is just pointless. 




> Honestly, the idea of doing continual runs where you slowly build up resources could be a decent structure outside of the randomised layout genre. The first thing that springs to mind is filling in a map and unlocking shortcuts for later runs (while resetting enemies, items, and bosses), but I'm sure people who spend their time designing games can come up with good 'set map, multiple runs' gameplay loops.


This is basically Dark Souls map design.

----------


## WritersBlock

Well, the consuming shadow does give you the tools to finish the game the first run technically. You may need a little luck and/or planning to get the full banishment ritual, or at least enough of it to guess what it is. The star bonuses (extra car speed, more max hp and sanity, extra bullet capacity, higher item find rate, and so on) are fun little assists that help you along. So it is a little more accessible than some roguelike's/roguelite's.

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

On the subject of losing because I dont know how to win, I decided to finally play *Dont Starve*, which has been sitting in my Steam library literally for years untouched prior to this. 

Died twice so far. First time was the very first night because I was trying to keep the things that go bump in the night at bay with a combination of torches and setting fire to every twig and tree around me (spoiler alert: they dont last long enough for that to be viable - though I am pleased the game made that an option!).

Second time I got ripped to bits by Hell Hounds, and oddly respawned at a dark shrine Id mucked around with earlier. Got back to my gear and killed the Hell Hounds at great physical cost. Im about two weeks in at this point.

----------


## Taevyr

> Honestly, Roguelikes tend to also have a noob tax in learning to game the systems and when to move to the next area. It's just that you can probably transfer most of it to other Roguelikes.
> 
> Honestly, the idea of doing continual runs where you slowly build up resources could be a decent structure outside of the randomised layout genre. The first thing that springs to mind is filling in a map and unlocking shortcuts for later runs (while resetting enemies, items, and bosses), but I'm sure people who spend their time designing games can come up with good 'set map, multiple runs' gameplay loops.
> 
> 
> Anyway, I'm back to Shadowrun: Hong Kong again, and I really do think I prefer it to Dragonfall. I went ork again, because they're my favourite metatype, and made a decker because I'm not taking Is0bel along on every mission for the second playthrough in a row. The fact I'm capped at INT 8 rather than 9 shouldn't be too much of a deal, it'll encourage me to dedicate some Karma to meatspace combat.
> 
> Although as an ork I'm of course speccing into Strength/Body over Quickness, particularly as I began with a point in Close Combat. Specialising in cyber weapons instead of thwacking sticks or unarmed, because of course the first implant I get is the Molly Millions hand razors. Dermal armour for survivability is probably next on the list, although I'll also need wired Reflexes and cybereyed to go the full Molly. Do cybereyed even increase melee accuracy?
> 
> Cyberware+decks+programs means this is going to be one expensive build nuyen-wise. If I can afford it the last purchase will be hydraulic jack legs for the movement boost.


I've done a playthrough of both Dragonfall and HK as an Orc Decker/Pistoleer with heavy augments: probably still one of my favourite characters, partially because it's so against type.

Not to mention that the sibling relation with Duncan in HK felt quite natural with that build/race, particularly with the story heavily steering towards you having been the "brains" between you two as children.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I've done a playthrough of both Dragonfall and HK as an Orc Decker/Pistoleer with heavy augments: probably still one of my favourite characters, partially because it's so against type.
> 
> Not to mention that the sibling relation with Duncan in HK felt quite natural with that build/race, particularly with the story heavily steering towards you having been the "brains" between you two as children.


I get the feeling that the intended character archetypes are either a decker or mage, because Is0bel is bad at her job and both lend themselves to the Academic etiquette. Plus being a mage or shaman encourages you to speak to the one shopkeeper who's relevant to the main story. Duncan also isn't stupid, he's a competent police officer* and literate (which is more normal in the 2050s than the 2070s, but Duncan probably learnt in his teens). The key difference between teenage Duncan and the teenage PC was that the PC was calm and Duncan was impulsive and violent, which is a dynamic you could continue even with 1 Intelligence.

I also think it's more than reasonable for the PC's stay in corporate prison to have broken them to the point that they're no longer the 'brains'. You can declare that your motivation for being a Shadowrunner is that it legitimises you hurting people, which is exactly the kind of thing Duncan used to look for.

* He's no detective, but he seems to be the Lone Star equivalent of a SWAT team member and is much better at his job than the officers in DMS. Plus take him to Whampoa and he'll actually pick up on important details at the crime scene.

----------


## Mr.Silver

Finished _The Excavation of Hob's Barrow_ and, yes, it's definitely a horror game. Possibly the darkest game overall that Wadjet Eye have published, honestly, although it does slow-roll this more than _Strangeland_. If you're familiar with modern (psuedo) 'folk horror' as a genre the story won't hold any massive surprises, but it's effectively told and works pretty well, with some good atmospheric work.
There is a kind of interesting minor element of branching narrative to it which, while it doesn't particularly alter the story's direction, does seem to have an effect on how you have to approach some of the game's puzzles. Since, depending on what you did in the early game, you may end-up with different options to approach problems in the later, although I'd have to replay it to confirm how much of an effect that can have. Some of my md-game involved a bit of running around the place, but it's entirely possible that would have changed if I'd done a couple of things differently earlier-on.
The game does have a kind of 'in-game hint book' funtion for the actual excavation puzzles once you get to those, if you feel you need that (a number of them also feature the Greek alphabet and knowledge of Latin, which would also make things a bit to look-up online if you're stuck without having to seek out a dedicated guide - which is kind of an interesting approach to the 'ways to make a game accessible to people who aren't good at puzzles' question). 

Pretty good experience overal, I'd say. Not that that's unsual for Wadjet Eye's catalogue at this point, mind you. A couple of the facial animations in the cutscene sections do seem a little off, and while the voice cast do a solid job throughout a couple of the re-used line reads can undercut the mood of some sections a little bit, but neither of those are exactly damning criticisms.

----------


## WritersBlock

Up to chapter 3 in the recently released Trails From Zero (first of the Legend of Heroes/Trails Crossbell duology games.) Runs extremely well on max settings due to Durante's outstanding optimization work. (I remember the first 2 trails in the sky games having the occasional fps drops even on high powered gaming pc's) It is always nice when a 40 dollar game actually feels like a 40 dollar game as well.

----------


## Taevyr

> Duncan also isn't stupid, he's a competent police officer* and literate (which is more normal in the 2050s than the 2070s, but Duncan probably learnt in his teens). The key difference between teenage Duncan and the teenage PC was that the PC was calm and Duncan was impulsive and violent, which is a dynamic you could continue even with 1 Intelligence.
> 
> I also think it's more than reasonable for the PC's stay in corporate prison to have broken them to the point that they're no longer the 'brains'. You can declare that your motivation for being a Shadowrunner is that it legitimises you hurting people, which is exactly the kind of thing Duncan used to look for.
> 
> * He's no detective, but he seems to be the Lone Star equivalent of a SWAT team member and is much better at his job than the officers in DMS. Plus take him to Whampoa and he'll actually pick up on important details at the crime scene.


I certainly wouldn't call him dumb, considering his apparent capability at both his professions, just pointing out that it kind of fits the given story for the MC to have a notably high INT/have applied themselves towards more academic pursuits before disappearing into a black site. Another clear sign of Duncan's competence is that if

*Spoiler: Shadowrun: hong kong + shadows DLC epilogue*
Show

 
1) he survives the main story and DLC
2) you rescue Qiu in the final run
3) you don't reinstate your SINs
He essentially disowns you as a brother, leaves with Qiu, and ends up succesfully working with her as a sort of off-the-books corporate officer: essentially Hong Kong Lone Star with the serial number filed off.


I really liked the dynamic you could have with him if your MC truly loved him like a brother, but also felt too burned by the system to return to it, especially after seeing the hardware and augments running can get you. Really felt like they both gradually realized their perspectives would end up irreconcilable, but didn't want to acknowledge it until someone's hand got forced.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Honestly Duncan is possibly the best character in the game, and considering he's going up against two very amoral but understandable party members that's saying something. It really helps that you don't have to have the PC continue a close relationship with him, you can have them be distant. I love to have him and the PC be like brother and sister, but I'm glad that it's not the only option (even as the game defines quite a bit of the PC's personality).

Also like Glory before him he's LGBT. That's massive bonus points in my book.

Duncan's biggest issue is that he doesn't quite get what he needs. He thinks he needs rules and structures to bind him, but he really just needs something to devote his energy too. It's telling that *Spoiler*
Show

if you do side with Qiu he doesn't return to Lone Star. He picks a new goal, dedicates himself to it, and arguably achieves more than the PC does in Seattle. He becomes the brains, you become the brawn.


But yes, I also like having the PC be the smart one. It helps that the Academic etiquette is just so useful throughout the game.

----------


## Wookieetank

> On the subject of losing because I dont know how to win, I decided to finally play *Dont Starve*, which has been sitting in my Steam library literally for years untouched prior to this. 
> 
> Died twice so far. First time was the very first night because I was trying to keep the things that go bump in the night at bay with a combination of torches and setting fire to every twig and tree around me (spoiler alert: they dont last long enough for that to be viable - though I am pleased the game made that an option!).
> 
> Second time I got ripped to bits by Hell Hounds, and oddly respawned at a dark shrine Id mucked around with earlier. Got back to my gear and killed the Hell Hounds at great physical cost. Im about two weeks in at this point.


For being called Don't Starve, I've died to everything else far more than starvation at this point.  Cold and critters are fighting for top spot on that.  Highly recommend playing with all the different characters at least once, adds to the atmosphere of the game rather well.  Really should get back to this game at some point and see if I can ever survive a full winter.

If you have any friends to play it with, Don't Starve Together is greatly entertaining at the disasters you can bring upon your group, generally by accident.

----------


## Cespenar

> Up to chapter 3 in the recently released Trails From Zero (first of the Legend of Heroes/Trails Crossbell duology games.) Runs extremely well on max settings due to Durante's outstanding optimization work. (I remember the first 2 trails in the sky games having the occasional fps drops even on high powered gaming pc's) It is always nice when a 40 dollar game actually feels like a 40 dollar game as well.


Sigh. Add another game to the ol' list. Not complaining though, since it's arguably from one of the best jrpg franchises aside maybe Persona.

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

> For being called Don't Starve, I've died to everything else far more than starvation at this point.  Cold and critters are fighting for top spot on that.  Highly recommend playing with all the different characters at least once, adds to the atmosphere of the game rather well.  Really should get back to this game at some point and see if I can ever survive a full winter.
> 
> If you have any friends to play it with, Don't Starve Together is greatly entertaining at the disasters you can bring upon your group, generally by accident.


I have to agree; out of about ten runs so far I only had one run where it was a contributing factor, and even then it wasnt what killed me it just lowered my health enough that it was easy for the monsters to finish me off.

Sadly I am friendless and alone so multiplayer anything is beyond me ATM, but I will keep it in mind!  :Small Smile:

----------


## Wookieetank

> I have to agree; out of about ten runs so far I only had one run where it was a contributing factor, and even then it wasnt what killed me it just lowered my health enough that it was easy for the monsters to finish me off.


Just because you Can poke something with a spear, doesn't mean you Should.  Still working on this one myself, that and kiting enemies better.  Game also likes to lean on Things Man Was Not Meant to Know, while interesting, exploring/checking out everything, is not always a good idea.  Still working on that one too.  Really this game just kinda punches me in my general gaming tendencies.

----------


## Resileaf

Finished Jade Empire. Was fun. Interesting twist (that I wish I could say I was either surprised by or saw it coming, but I had come across it at some point, probably on TVtropes). Buggy at times though, the camera doesn't always work (gets stuck looking at the ground and I can't see where I'm going at all). Seems like I missed something with Kang though, didn't get all the minigames. Probably had to complete every combination before finishing the Lotus Assassin base.

Worst part of the game remains the dumb made-up language, which I suppose is a pretty minor complaint all things considered. I can see why it has a good following.

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

> Just because you Can poke something with a spear, doesn't mean you Should.  Still working on this one myself, that and kiting enemies better.  Game also likes to lean on Things Man Was Not Meant to Know, while interesting, exploring/checking out everything, is not always a good idea.  Still working on that one too.  Really this game just kinda punches me in my general gaming tendencies.


In my defense I didnt even know Treeguards existed until after I hit it with my axe and it turned me into a pine needle pincushion.  :Small Red Face: 




> I have to agree; out of about ten runs so far I only had one run where it was a contributing factor, and even then it wasnt what killed me it just lowered my health enough that it was easy for the monsters to finish me off.


Update: two runs now. This time the insanity was the actual primary contributor, but the starvation was the cause of death. On the flip side - new record! I made it to Day 33.

----------


## factotum

> Finished Jade Empire. Was fun. Interesting twist (that I wish I could say I was either surprised by or saw it coming, but I had come across it at some point, probably on TVtropes).


That's a bit of a shame, because the twist is one of the best-executed I've seen in a video game story. The best part about it is the performance:

*Spoiler*
Show


A typical Hollywood outcome to a twist like this would be the guy who betrays you suddenly completely changes character after he does so, going from affable friendly dude to "NOW YOU DIEEE!" without dropping a beat. Master Li never does that--he is the same character after the betrayal as he was before, and it's great to look back at all the stuff he did and what he said during the game and realise that everything still makes sense. There's a moment after you've escaped from the cave he puts you in near the start of the game where he seems to be almost panicking, and at the time you have no idea why--it's only later that you realise he knew the soldiers were on their way to wipe out the village, and his carefully-crafted plan collapses like a deck of cards if you're there when they arrive and get killed!

----------


## Zevox

"Eh, it's been a few months, maybe I'll dip back into HearthStone and play a few rounds of Battlegrounds. Just going to need to grab the perks since it's been so long, but I've got plenty of gold saved up... Wait, where's the perks? Oh, I think they've been lumped in with this new Battle Pass thing. Why can't I buy it with gold? What's this new icon on it as the alternative to paying money? Runestones? How do you get those? *Googles it* So, only by paying money..."

*Uninstalls game forever*

Okay, I haven't quite taken that last step yet, but I have never been so close to doing so. I've already permanently ditched everything else about Hearthstone, and am not inclined to play even Battlegrounds on any regular basis anymore, and now they've pulled this crap? It's like they're actively trying to drive away anyone who plays at all casually.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> That's a bit of a shame, because the twist is one of the best-executed I've seen in a video game story. The best part about it is the performance:
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> A typical Hollywood outcome to a twist like this would be the guy who betrays you suddenly completely changes character after he does so, going from affable friendly dude to "NOW YOU DIEEE!" without dropping a beat. Master Li never does that--he is the same character after the betrayal as he was before, and it's great to look back at all the stuff he did and what he said during the game and realise that everything still makes sense. There's a moment after you've escaped from the cave he puts you in near the start of the game where he seems to be almost panicking, and at the time you have no idea why--it's only later that you realise he knew the soldiers were on their way to wipe out the village, and his carefully-crafted plan collapses like a deck of cards if you're there when they arrive and get killed!


Yeah, the plot of Jade Empire is awesome. Makes me wish there was a third quest hub, but awesome.

*Spoiler*
Show

On the other hand it makes me even more annoyed at how badly the morality system was handled. The two main antagonists both reflect the dark sides of each extreme, which sets up the PC to redeem the philosophy of your choice. But instead *you can't play a character who actually follows Closed Fist*, and Open Palm is portrayed as the good, helpful, cosmically right option.

The Closed Fist option should have generally been one of three things: punishing them for requesting help, giving them a tool to use, or staying out of it entirely. The 'evil' option can still be there, but it should give no morality points.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Yeah, the plot of Jade Empire is awesome. Makes me wish there was a third quest hub, but awesome.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> On the other hand it makes me even more annoyed at how badly the morality system was handled. The two main antagonists both reflect the dark sides of each extreme, which sets up the PC to redeem the philosophy of your choice. But instead *you can't play a character who actually follows Closed Fist*, and Open Palm is portrayed as the good, helpful, cosmically right option.
> 
> The Closed Fist option should have generally been one of three things: punishing them for requesting help, giving them a tool to use, or staying out of it entirely. The 'evil' option can still be there, but it should give no morality points.


*Spoiler*
Show

Yeah, there was like one or two genuine closed fist options, closed fist should be about pushing people to make their own solution or their own destruction if they're not strong enough. But this is 2000s era Bioware morality so it's actually just "be a git".

----------


## Resileaf

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Yeah, there was like one or two genuine closed fist options, closed fist should be about pushing people to make their own solution or their own destruction if they're not strong enough. But this is 2000s era Bioware morality so it's actually just "be a git".


*Spoiler*
Show

Yeah, I didn't mention it, but it _is_ pretty aggravating that all but a few closed fist decisions are the equivalent of "I am now going to eat this kitten to prove how ruthless I am". Feels like half the conversation choices were "How dare a peasant talk to me?!"

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Yeah, there was like one or two genuine closed fist options, closed fist should be about pushing people to make their own solution or their own destruction if they're not strong enough. But this is 2000s era Bioware morality so it's actually just "be a git".





> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Yeah, I didn't mention it, but it _is_ pretty aggravating that all but a few closed fist decisions are the equivalent of "I am now going to eat this kitten to prove how ruthless I am". Feels like half the conversation choices were "How dare a peasant talk to me?!"


*Spoiler*
Show

I get why they did it like they did, it would be hard to implement without missing out on sidequests. But it's really disappointing, especially as there are some situations where a CF might just shut up, stand back, and watch it play out.

The childhood promise quest comes to mind. It's entirely reasonable for a CF character to just get the two of them alone in a room and wait. This is their conflict, and so they should decide it.

But yeah, the medicine and pirate workshop choices stand out, although the latter is marred by the fact that the awesome option to give her the knife rewards less CF points and the Iron Palm piece. I'd have also loved the option to have Dawn Star fight Gao the Lesser, ideally after you've broken his shin (to make the fight fair).

----------


## Resileaf

Oh, I just remembered that there is one thing that I think is really annoying, and it's that shapeshifting makes a huge blinding flash of light that makes it impossible to see the screen for a solid five seconds, during which the enemies can whale on you without problem because it's impossible to see what they're doing.

----------


## avensis

I play Return to Monkey Island, The game is a real pleasure I was afraid like many people about the graphics, But it's a total success.

----------


## Wookieetank

> In my defense I didnt even know Treeguards existed until after I hit it with my axe and it turned me into a pine needle pincushion. 
> 
> 
> 
> Update: two runs now. This time the insanity was the actual primary contributor, but the starvation was the cause of death. On the flip side - new record! I made it to Day 33.


Nice.  Once you can get drying racks and either Rabbits or Frogs, food pretty much becomes a non-issue and Sanity is much more of a threat.  Hey look there's a weird shadow thing over... OHMYGODWHYISITEATINGMYFACE!?!?!  Campfire keep away is fun though.

Treeguards are obnoxious, particularly when you get more than one following you.  Mistakes may have been made (several really).

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

> Nice.  Once you can get drying racks and either Rabbits or Frogs, food pretty much becomes a non-issue and Sanity is much more of a threat.  Hey look there's a weird shadow thing over... OHMYGODWHYISITEATINGMYFACE!?!?!  Campfire keep away is fun though.


The worst thing for me that run was the low sanity made the little rabbits stop giving me food.  :Small Frown:  I tried to get by stealing eggs from some penguins that set up shop nearby but those things are fast.




> Treeguards are obnoxious, particularly when you get more than one following you.  Mistakes may have been made (several really).


Theyre really durable too. I got killed by another one tonight, after I set the thing on fire TWICE, plus several whacks with an axe.  :Small Annoyed:

----------


## Wookieetank

> The worst thing for me that run was the low sanity made the little rabbits stop giving me food.  I tried to get by stealing eggs from some penguins that set up shop nearby but those things are fast.
> 
> Theyre really durable too. I got killed by another one tonight, after I set the thing on fire TWICE, plus several whacks with an axe.


I've had more than one forest burn down as collateral damage from dealing with Treebeards.  Its all fun and games till the burning tree monster follows you to your base.  Totally worth it though for the show.  Had a good supply of charcoal too, not much else, but definitely set on the charcoal.

----------


## Zevox

With recently re-playing X-Com 2 and the upcoming release of Mario + Rabbids 2 (which I'll be getting, but not playing immediately, because it's coming out too close to Bayonetta 3), I decided I felt like re-playing Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle. And wow, first thing that hits me: I remember this game being better than it had any right to be, but I'd somehow forgotten that part of the reason for that is the music being done by Grant Kirkhope, the composer of Banjo-Kazooie's music. But damn, it's obvious fast, and it really contributes to the fun, cartoony feel of the game. Love that stuff - and it makes it all the nicer to hear him mix in elements of Mario 64 music when you're at Peach's Castle.

It also just feels good that while the game was obviously heavily inspired by/borrowing from X-Com, it changes enough to have a completely different feel from it. The dash attack and team jump mechanics, the pipe mechanics, the overall massively different way movement is handled, the special effects weapons can apply on crits, it makes for a much more aggressive style to the game, for lack of a better way to explain it. Blowing up enemy cover can sometimes be possible, but only with repeated hits, so whereas in X-Com doing that is basically the default effective strategy, in this game using the extra mobility afforded to you to move aggressively to flank enemies and get extra hits on them with dash attack/stomp is more the way to go. You really have to appreciate that they go the extra mile with this instead of just cloning the obvious source of the basic mechanics (though they do give Mario and Luigi overwatch as their first special move, so they definitely copied some things).

This time around I'm going to try to use different characters. I know by the end of the last run I was basically always using Luigi and Rabbid Luigi as my partners, because Luigi is the sniper and Rabbid Luigi is just busted strong later in the game due to his Vampiric Dash (he actually soloed the final boss for me after his teammates got KOed early in the fight, as I recall...), and I used Rabbid Peach heavily throughout the game before settling on those two since she's the initial healer. So I'll be looking at Rabbid Mario, Peach, and two Yoshis a lot more this time I think. Unless they just all turn out to suck, somehow. I'll be especially avoiding Rabbid Luigi though.

----------


## zlefin

> "Eh, it's been a few months, maybe I'll dip back into HearthStone and play a few rounds of Battlegrounds. Just going to need to grab the perks since it's been so long, but I've got plenty of gold saved up... Wait, where's the perks? Oh, I think they've been lumped in with this new Battle Pass thing. Why can't I buy it with gold? What's this new icon on it as the alternative to paying money? Runestones? How do you get those? *Googles it* So, only by paying money..."
> 
> *Uninstalls game forever*
> 
> Okay, I haven't quite taken that last step yet, but I have never been so close to doing so. I've already permanently ditched everything else about Hearthstone, and am not inclined to play even Battlegrounds on any regular basis anymore, and now they've pulled this crap? It's like they're actively trying to drive away anyone who plays at all casually.


I find even without any perks battlegrounds is quite fine and playable.  If you haven't already; I'd recommend at least playing it some to try out the quest system.  While at first I'd feared there were serious imbalances in the current iteration; as I've played more I've found it's reasonably well balanced with a number of paths to choose from depending on what comes up.

----------


## Cespenar

So, I wrapped up the "new" Monkey Island, and I get where some of the irritations were coming from (non-art-wise). It's a pretty "eff you" kinda ending, but considering how that point was coming along from 20 odd years ago (not to mention being reminded like a billion times inside the game as well), I can't get that angry about it. 

Also, the credits-message-thingy also explains the devs' feelings pretty well, so I'm willing to "give" this small point to them, since they are the ones who made up the franchise in the first place.

----------


## Zevox

> I find even without any perks battlegrounds is quite fine and playable.  If you haven't already; I'd recommend at least playing it some to try out the quest system.  While at first I'd feared there were serious imbalances in the current iteration; as I've played more I've found it's reasonably well balanced with a number of paths to choose from depending on what comes up.


I've played a few games without. The problem is really the loss of two heroes of the four from your choices. Makes it a lot more likely that you might just get two you just don't like playing - in which case, I get to just concede and then que up for a different match, crossing my fingers for a hero I can actually enjoy this time. Which has already happened a couple of times. Ever so much fun, that.

I really just have no patience for that kind of F2P BS anymore. Locking simple gameplay elements like that in an effort at squeezing a few more bucks out of players is just not something I want to put up with, ever. It actively makes the game less fun, and why should I play a game that is designed to make itself less fun if you don't spend X amount of money with X frequency when plenty of games that don't do that exist? 

As far as the quest system, from what I saw of it, eh. It feels like it probably has some imbalanced stuff - I know one of the quests, where the stats of any minion you sell get added to a random minion in the tavern, felt pretty weak to me, since it's just very difficult to have those stats land on a minion that works with a specific build you're aiming for; while another that I got, which let me discover a minion of my tavern tier every time I played 4 Beasts or Quillboars, seemed way more potent, and did lead to me winning with a Gul'drin Beasts build. But at least nothing seemed as obviously busted as the early versions of Buddies and Nagas from earlier this year I guess. I suppose that's kind of a thing to: after those, I've kind of given up balance in Battlegrounds as a lost cause. Which is definitely part of why I took a long break from it between the middle of the year and now, and another part of why I'm considering just dropping it forever at this point. Me losing confidence in their ability to balance the main game mode was one part of what pushed me away from that, after all, so if Battlegrounds is following suit there...

----------


## zlefin

I can see that.  I'm more of a play everything type, so I'm ok with just 2.

I get hating that.  I also get blizz wanting to try to make some money off the battlegrounds mode, which otherwise doesn't monetize so well.

The quests having different activation costs helps balance them alot.  The selling minions transfers their stats ones is actually quite decent I've found.  It may not be a high roll late gamer, but it's a solid and helpful boost.  If you leave the minion you truly want for last, you can transfer all the stats onto the minion of your choice by buying all the others.  It also works well if you're using demons to eat the tavern minions.  That does take a lot of gold and buying/selling, but it works out ok.  Another notable feature is that it's very accommodating of shifting strategies.  Normally shifting doesn't work well because hte loss of accumulated stats really hurts; but the stat transfer lets you keep all the accumulations/buffs you've spent even if you shift to a completely different build.  It tends to favor an ever-shifting menagerie build really.

----------


## Zevox

> I also get blizz wanting to try to make some money off the battlegrounds mode, which otherwise doesn't monetize so well.


See, that is _exactly_ where they get no sympathy and plenty of anger from me, because I don't think that's a remotely reasonable argument for this. One, they've already found ways to monetize Battlegrounds in the form of the myriad (overpriced, IMO) cosmetic options they started offering for it, and I've seen those more than often enough to know plenty of people are buying them, especially the attack animations. Two, Battlegrounds is just one mode of many in a game that they've already been adding ways to milk for all its worth to for years. There's no way to convince me they needed to lock half of a basic gameplay function behind a paywall in order to make any money off of Hearthstone of all things, that's just absurd on its face - especially when the mode has existed without this for literally years already. It's blatantly making their game worse to feed their greed, nothing more.

----------


## warty goblin

> There's no way to convince me they needed to lock half of a basic gameplay function behind a paywall in order to make any money off of Hearthstone of all things, that's just absurd on its face - especially when the mode has existed without this for literally years already. It's blatantly making their game worse to feed their greed, nothing more.


I think this is more or less an inevitable part of the life cycle of a F2P game. At some point a title simply won't be attracting lots of new players anymore, either because it's already a niche product and has more or less capped out, or because it's a competitive market and an older title gets gradually left behind by changing genre expectations it can't fully meet without massive changes that alienate the existing player base.

As the playerbase stagnates, more and more of the population will accumulate at the top of whatever progression systems the game has, which makes them harder to extract money from. You can't sell a progress booster to a player who has already progressed, it's going to be harder and harder to sell them new cosmetics because they already have the ones they think are cool, and they probably have already accumulated a bunch of the rare and desirable items. 

At the same time however, the players who have stacked up at max progression are generally pretty hardcore, and so can be squeezed harder. In particular, gating things that used to be free works because if the player base has spent 1500 hours getting used to the dopamine kick of getting that reward or using that thing, playing without it is intolerable. But they have 1500 hours or whatever in the game, it's probably a major part of their routine, so not playing is also psychologically expensive. 


I'm thinking about this a lot right now because World of Warships, my F2P poison of choice, is about to retool its progression into the inevitable battle pass. Naturally this looks like it's going to be a worse deal for players, unless you buy the upgraded or the super upgraded versions, which seem like they are independent of what I'm already paying for Premium Time. Since I've been house sitting for a week, I haven't played, and I'm seriously considering just using this as a springboard to quitting entirely. Which is too bad, because I genuinely like the game, I'm just unspeakably weary of having bits of it held hostage behind this paywall and that currency and some other hellish mega-grind that can only be alleviated with cold hard cash spent on their dumb fake in-game currency.

----------


## Zevox

> I think this is more or less an inevitable part of the life cycle of a F2P game. At some point a title simply won't be attracting lots of new players anymore, either because it's already a niche product and has more or less capped out, or because it's a competitive market and an older title gets gradually left behind by changing genre expectations it can't fully meet without massive changes that alienate the existing player base.
> 
> As the playerbase stagnates, more and more of the population will accumulate at the top of whatever progression systems the game has, which makes them harder to extract money from. You can't sell a progress booster to a player who has already progressed, it's going to be harder and harder to sell them new cosmetics because they already have the ones they think are cool, and they probably have already accumulated a bunch of the rare and desirable items. 
> 
> At the same time however, the players who have stacked up at max progression are generally pretty hardcore, and so can be squeezed harder. In particular, gating things that used to be free works because if the player base has spent 1500 hours getting used to the dopamine kick of getting that reward or using that thing, playing without it is intolerable. But they have 1500 hours or whatever in the game, it's probably a major part of their routine, so not playing is also psychologically expensive.


Makes a twisted, sad amount of sense. And is just one more reason for me to move away from ever touching a free-to-play game again, which is the direction I've been heading for years anyway. It's been obvious for some time to me that the way that model impacts game design is quite negative, and if it only gets worse the longer the game's around, well, all the more reason to stop giving them the time of day.




> I'm thinking about this a lot right now because World of Warships, my F2P poison of choice, is about to retool its progression into the inevitable battle pass. Naturally this looks like it's going to be a worse deal for players, unless you buy the upgraded or the super upgraded versions, which seem like they are independent of what I'm already paying for Premium Time. Since I've been house sitting for a week, I haven't played, and I'm seriously considering just using this as a springboard to quitting entirely. Which is too bad, because I genuinely like the game, I'm just unspeakably weary of having bits of it held hostage behind this paywall and that currency and some other hellish mega-grind that can only be alleviated with cold hard cash spent on their dumb fake in-game currency.


Never played that particular game, but yeah, I fully sympathize there. Went through that with non-Battlegrounds Hearthstone, seeing those elements in Multiversus is why I only played that for a couple of weeks despite it appearing to be right up my alley, even spent a year and a half playing a Star Wars mobile game before concluding that I couldn't stomach all that kind of stuff just for what good there was underneath it.

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## zlefin

@goblin I'd like to hear more about what WoWs is retooling.  It was one of my games for years, and I got out a couple years ago upset about some of the changes.  But I still like to hear about what's happening with the game, and sometimes mourn the parts I liked.  How are they changing the progression?  How much effect does it have on the stuff people already got?

----------


## warty goblin

> Makes a twisted, sad amount of sense. And is just one more reason for me to move away from ever touching a free-to-play game again, which is the direction I've been heading for years anyway. It's been obvious for some time to me that the way that model impacts game design is quite negative, and if it only gets worse the longer the game's around, well, all the more reason to stop giving them the time of day.


Yeah, it turns the game into bait to get you to bite on the progression stuff. Then the harvesting can begin. 

To be clear I'm not complaining about paying for stuff. Art, game design, servers, all that costs money and I'm happy to exchange cash for a fun game. I don't even really mind microtransactions, though in absolute terms they're clearly a rotten deal in terms of actual content. It's the layers of manipulation and obfuscation and deliberately making the game worse that F2P games employ that bug me.

And compared to a lot of games Warships isn't that bad. They actually do a good job of keeping power creep down, the premium ships aren't straight up better than the free ones, and they've backed off from lootboxes substantially after a massive community backlash last year. But it's still full of annoying F2P nonsense and unlocks and progression gates that force you to play in silly ways. 




> Never played that particular game, but yeah, I fully sympathize there. Went through that with non-Battlegrounds Hearthstone, seeing those elements in Multiversus is why I only played that for a couple of weeks despite it appearing to be right up my alley, even spent a year and a half playing a Star Wars mobile game before concluding that I couldn't stomach all that kind of stuff just for what good there was underneath it.


Yeah, I think you have the right idea here. I'm certainly not going to get seriously into another F2P game at this point, they just take too damn much time and are too unpleasant to interact with, even if the game itself is good. Which pretty much is going to put the kibosh on playing anything MP, because MP = F2P and I don't see that changing.




> @goblin I'd like to hear more about what WoWs is retooling.  It was one of my games for years, and I got out a couple years ago upset about some of the changes.  But I still like to hear about what's happening with the game, and sometimes mourn the parts I liked.  How are they changing the progression?  How much effect does it have on the stuff people already got?


So they've done a number of things. Most recently they reworked the economy so that instead of a ship's income bonuses coming from camo + economy signals + special econ signals, you just mount a single booster for each of credits, ship XP, free XP and Commander XP. At the same time they monkeyed with a bunch of numbers and made credits etc a function of base XP instead of ship XP, so a ship XP boost isn't also a credit boost anymore. 

This change is actually OK to good. I think it reduced your ability to mega-stack all your super-rare bonuses and have just huge earnings in a single match, but the average earnings seem the same to a little higher for *most* ships in most matches. It's also really simple, If I'm grinding through a T9, I put on the +800%  ship XP booster. If I'm farming credits in a premium though, I don't have to boost ship XP amymore. Permanent camos got replaced by permanent ship boosters, which get added to whatever expendable boosters you use. This also completely separates camouflage pattern from earnings so you don't need to paint your ship like a Christmas tree for the economic benefits anymore. As somebody who ended up with a genuinely vile perma-camo on his Fredrich der Grosse, I appreciate not having blinky Christmas lights on all my gun barrels anymore. 


They also added what they're calling superships, which are really just T11 ships with extra gimmicks. One of these gimmicks is a sky high maintenance cost, which makes them borderline impossible to actually earn credits in. I have 1 supership, which routinely loses me like 50k credits net per game. Don't bother with superships, unless you're doing Clan Battles, which more or less require them when they're allowed.

And this last patch they added submarines for real this time. They've been in testing for like a year, and they're sort of OK. I don't hate them, they're a but dull to play and slightly annoying to fight (no worse than CVs, stealth torping DDs, or HE spam out of smoke), but there sure is a lot of complaining about them right now.

I think the Battle Pass is next patch. I'm not 100% clear yet on what its changing and replacing, but it sounds like it's subsuming the Daily/Weekly missions. I basically ignore these as it is, since they never change,  the rewards are lame, and just take playing the game with a modicum of skill to do anyway. So I'm not keen on replacing that with another thing I need to pay attention to. And while the existing missions are pretty much neutral to how much you spend since they key off base XP, the BP apparently has two levels of premium bonuses, and you can buy through stages because of course you can. Even if this one is fine, it sets up Wargaming to be able to really tighten the screws in future.  Oh hey, you want that 10k coal? Either grind out like 10k BXP this week, or pay, or get nothing.

But it might not be that bad. It's only on the Public Test Server, so this could well be the typical ploy where the test version looks really bad so the very slightly better release version makes it seem like they "listened to them community."

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## Zevox

> To be clear I'm not complaining about paying for stuff. Art, game design, servers, all that costs money and I'm happy to exchange cash for a fun game. I don't even really mind microtransactions, though in absolute terms they're clearly a rotten deal in terms of actual content. It's the layers of manipulation and obfuscation and deliberately making the game worse that F2P games employ that bug me.


Absolutely agreed. I'm perfectly happy paying full price for a good game, and totally okay with DLC as long as it feels appropriately priced - and if it doesn't, cool, I can ignore it, I have the rest of the game anyway. But the way F2P games turn into a treadmill designed to force as much money out of the player as possible in manipulative ways I have come to hate with a passion.




> And compared to a lot of games Warships isn't that bad.


Funny, I've noticed that everyone says that about whatever F2P game they play. I sure did when I played Hearthstone, or Galaxy of Heroes (and boy was it wrong about that one especially). At this point, I've come to conclusion that it's a comment/thought I have to take as a red flag in itself. Especially since, when you stop to think about it, it implies that the game _is_ still bad, or at least not good, when it comes to those elements, because you can't say anything more positive about it. And I'm no longer going to excuse a game not being good just because there are worse out there. Diablo Immortal existing doesn't make Multiversus charging $20 for a single character costume okay.




> Yeah, I think you have the right idea here. I'm certainly not going to get seriously into another F2P game at this point, they just take too damn much time and are too unpleasant to interact with, even if the game itself is good. Which pretty much is going to put the kibosh on playing anything MP, because MP = F2P and I don't see that changing.


Blessedly, fighting games are not. At least, not yet, there are those who are calling for them to become such, and the first couple of attempts are either recently released (Multiversus) or on the horizon ("Project L," a League of Legends fighting game which still doesn't even have an official title yet despite them having teased it for years now). My hope is that even if some end up going that route, not all will, because there are certain fighting games where the typical monetization methods would be very rough to implement - alternate cosmetics are reputedly a lot of work in the cel-shaded art style used by my favorite developer, Arc System Works, for instance, so people doubt they could do it without dropping the very distinct visual style that's helped make them a bigger name in the genre over the last half-decade or so.

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## Anonymouswizard

Part of me is glad that my personal favourite genre, story driven WRPGs, is naturally resilient to F2P elements (whether that's making it a Free To Pay or Fee To Pay game). Sure some of the most successful ones in the last decade have included heavy open worlc elements, but I've never been a massive fan of open world design and I'm sure that trend is going to start dying this decade when something else makes a gajillion dollars and becomes the Standard AAA formula.

That's not to say that microtransactions or even loot boxes are inherently bad. It's just the way they're currently used that's problematic. But I can't see that changing without a widespread abandonment of any game with such elements, which is a shame because there are definitely games that would have completely failed without being F2P.

Thankfully I've bounced off every F2P game I've tried, because people who've seen my TTRPG collection will confer that I have minimal impulse control. Four editions of Shadowrun...

At the same time, I remember when you could buy a game for £30 and its expansion for £10, whereas indiviyquest chains are now £5 each. It's infuriating, especially when there are studios out there who have shown that with a reduction in scope you can sell an amazing game for less than a pair of tenners (insert gushing about Shadowrun games here).

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## Saambell

> At the same time, I remember when you could buy a game for £30 and its expansion for £10, whereas indiviyquest chains are now £5 each. It's infuriating, especially when there are studios out there who have shown that with a reduction in scope you can sell an amazing game for less than a pair of tenners (insert gushing about Shadowrun games here).


Yeah, I'm finding the good games nowadays lean to the mid tier indie games or smaller studios which tend to the 15$ to 25$ area of price tags. At that range you get a lot of polish, but still a small enough game that it's generally tightly focused, and being from a smaller studio it's not got the corporate greed shining in. Though there's still some real gems for even less, but once under that low end is when the cheaper trend chasers or work in "progress" start to become commonplace. I have not bought a AAA game at launch in years. The most recent one I got was 2077 just last month, and it was a gift so I don't even lose anything if I turn out to have too many issues with it. And it's nice that the game is still getting support and fixes. I figure by the time I work though a bit more of my backlog it might be in a good spot. And even if not, I play modded Skyrim as my go to comfort food, so I'm very use to levels of jank that would sink most games.

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## NeoVid

Speaking of games becoming pathetic shells of their former selves...  I had been a dedicated Team Fortress 2 player for ages, but pretty much dropped it when Overwatch released.  Now Overwatch 2 is out... so I'm back into Team Fortress 2.

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## Sigako

Finally weaned myself off Warframe.

Currently alternating between Persona 4 Golden, Shin Megami Tensei III Nocturne, Trails in the Sky FC, Tokyo Xanadu eX+, and fighting utter apathy and depression, which saps my will to play anything.

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## Zevox

Jumped back into Guilty Gear Strive this weekend due to its crossplay beta being up - and since that was using a different client in order to temporarily make the game free for anyone to try while the beta was going on, I took the opportunity to try out the one DLC character I don't have, Bridget. She dropped while I just busy with other fighting games - namely Persona 4 Arena Ultimax, since it got rollback added to it at basically the same time - so I haven't much considered whether I wanted to pick up until now, and this was a convenient way to figure it out.

Short answer: yeah, I think do. Honestly, I'd almost want to get her just for her theme music, which is one of the few very peppy, for lack of a better term, themes in the game, which I seem to have a weakness for (also really like the other two, May's and Jack-O's themes). But Bridget herself is pretty fun to play as well. She's not entirely my style - she's almost a pseudo-zoner with how big some of her normals are, rivaling Axl, the game's dedicated zoner, with some of them - but I like the kind of tricky options she has to mess with people via her yo-yo projectile moves and the special air dash they give her. Also, one way she is totally my style, is she's goofy as hell. I mean, she fights with a yo-yo and a teddy bear, and is constantly animated like she's dancing and singing while she's fighting - definitely a very happy, upbeat sort of character. Reminds me of May, my favorite character in the game, that way.

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## Anonymouswizard

Having another crack at Pillars of Eternity, this time as a Savannah Folk Monk. So of course the game decides to crash halfway through the tutorial  :Small Sigh: 

So did that bit again, establishing myself as a hermit instead of a hunter this time.

It really does feel more like a Baldur's Gate successor than a Torment one. Sure, it's got the philosophical bent and the use of copper as your currency, but it lacks the sense of weirdness. Which is fine, I'm happy to play something more standard without the Divinity: Original Sin issue of having to essentially pixel hunt every single sidequest to get to the expected power level. Plus handing out basically no experience for killing dudes should have been standard practice since games first implemented quests and dialogue.

Monks also seem like a fun playstyle I can get behind. At level 1 I'm a bit inaccurate but my fists hit with the power of one handed weapons, and the idea of running ability usage off of taking damage means I won't just spam everything as combat starts.

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## GloatingSwine

> Having another crack at Pillars of Eternity, this time as a Savannah Folk Monk. So of course the game decides to crash halfway through the tutorial 
> 
> So did that bit again, establishing myself as a hermit instead of a hunter this time.
> 
> It really does feel more like a Baldur's Gate successor than a Torment one.


Yeah, Pillars is extremely a Baldur's Gate successor.

It throws a lot of lore and worldbuilding at you early on, which is an advantage on repeat playthroughs because now you understand the unspoken reasons _why_ everyone is doing what they're doing even in the first village, but makes it relatively impenetrable the first time around.

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## warty goblin

Back from house sitting, so can play stuff again. I'm trying a Warships break, just to firmly de-habituate myself while I wait and see how crappy the new monetization scheme turns out to be. 

So far I'm trying Asterigos: Curse of the Stars, which is roughly an indie Kingdoms of Amalur sort of thing, at least in terms of combat. You get two weapons equipped at a time, each of which gets two actions. First weapon is boimumd left/right bumper, second to the triggers. So you can chain attacks between weapons easily, and the weapon types are all quite distinct. Sword and shield is the only set to get a block, spear gets a parry, and the other weapons have no defensive moves at all. There's also a special attack system, but I'm not far enough in to really have a handle on that.

So far it seems pretty fine. I don't think it'll set your world on fire, but the level design seems pretty decent, combat is good, and the dumb Soulsalike mechanics are minimized to a vestigial stamina bar and enemies respawning when you touch the glowy rest points. So you get to just run around exploring a fantasy world and murdering all the cute cartoon animals, as God intended.




> Yeah, Pillars is extremely a Baldur's Gate successor.
> 
> It throws a lot of lore and worldbuilding at you early on, which is an advantage on repeat playthroughs because now you understand the unspoken reasons _why_ everyone is doing what they're doing even in the first village, but makes it relatively impenetrable the first time around.


On the various times I've tried to get into Pillars, I've always found it to hit a sort of uncanny valley with its lore and worldbuilding, where it's different enough from standard fantasy I need to pay attention, but not distinct or inventive enough  with those differences to make attention particularly rewarding. And because it seems to be attempting to drown the player in lore, it takes a lot of attention. So I'm kinda stuck between either feeling vaguely confused or vaguely bored.

----------


## Batcathat

I have kind of a weird relationship with Pillars of Eternity. When I first tried it, I instantly fell in love with it (in no small part thanks to the aforementioned similarity to the Baldur's Gate series) and I put quite a few hours into it, only to stop playing it like halfway through for no real reason. Like a year later I decided to try it again and started a new game, only for the same thing to happen again. I kind of want to start playing it once more, but I suspect I'd just drop it all over again.

On another note, I finally finished Unavowed a few days ago (it wasn't that long, I just took a more or less accidental break for like two weeks) and I would say it lives up to the hype, even if it's not without its flaws.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> I have kind of a weird relationship with Pillars of Eternity. When I first tried it, I instantly fell in love with it (in no small part thanks to the aforementioned similarity to the Baldur's Gate series) and I put quite a few hours into it, only to stop playing it like halfway through for no real reason. Like a year later I decided to try it again and started a new game, only for the same thing to happen again. I kind of want to start playing it once more, but I suspect I'd just drop it all over again.


Burning out after Defiance Bay is a pretty common reaction to the first game. The Defiance Bay chapter ends with a lot of narrative energy which drains out pretty much immediately when you get to Dyrford.

It is worth pushing through though because there are some cool quests in the second hub with interesting ways to resolve them*, and it's more like 2/3 of the way through.

White March is really good as well. The final dialogue boss in it is one of the best in games, where you don't just have to pick the right arguments to get the golden ending they also have to be consistent with the other choices you've made throughout the game and in your party's quests or you just get called a hypocrite and your arguments fall flat.

*Spoiler: Example*
Show

You need the favour of a god to get into the final dungeon and not be dead, so you have to do a task for them to earn it. For Hylea she sends you to her temple which has been overtaken by a dragon to drive it out. You go there, meet the dragon, and find out that it is nesting there to rear its young. Since Hylea is the god of motherhood as well as birds and the air you can go back and tell her she has to accept the dragon because of why it is there. You can just straight up tell the gods they have to take your solution and lump it.





> On the various times I've tried to get into Pillars, I've always found it to hit a sort of uncanny valley with its lore and worldbuilding, where it's different enough from standard fantasy I need to pay attention, but not distinct or inventive enough with those differences to make attention particularly rewarding. And because it seems to be attempting to drown the player in lore, it takes a lot of attention. So I'm kinda stuck between either feeling vaguely confused or vaguely bored.


Yeah, there is no slow onboarding for that lore and that really hurts the first impression.

After I'd played the whole thing through and did a repeat playthrough and I understood what all that lore was already it enhances the first area because everything that's happening there is pretty much directly caused by the main plot and immediate backstory. Instead of a sort of fishbowl zone where you get a soft intro to the world and _then_ all the lore and backstory starts being relevant later it just yeets you into the deep end of everything mattering.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Yeah, Pillars is extremely a Baldur's Gate successor.
> 
> It throws a lot of lore and worldbuilding at you early on, which is an advantage on repeat playthroughs because now you understand the unspoken reasons _why_ everyone is doing what they're doing even in the first village, but makes it relatively impenetrable the first time around.


Oh, it's dense, but it's also clearly packed with setup for later developments. Like there's a lot going on here, but once you've learnt to ignore the gold NPCs and find a few sidequests it becomes manageable.

I've not got far enough in any previous playthroughs to understand it Ll yet, but I look forward to it!




> On the various times I've tried to get into Pillars, I've always found it to hit a sort of uncanny valley with its lore and worldbuilding, where it's different enough from standard fantasy I need to pay attention, but not distinct or inventive enough  with those differences to make attention particularly rewarding. And because it seems to be attempting to drown the player in lore, it takes a lot of attention. So I'm kinda stuck between either feeling vaguely confused or vaguely bored.


Honestly it's not that strange. It's more like coming into somebody's homebrew setting after a five year campaign has messed everything up (that war everybody keeps talking about), but it really is a standard D&D world with a few twists. But I understand it's not to everybody's tastes, personally I really like those tweaks.


The level curve is, however, utterly borked. Level 3 of 14 before getting to the primary hub ..

----------


## Taevyr

> White March is really good as well. The final dialogue boss in it is one of the best in games, where you don't just have to pick the right arguments to get the golden ending they also have to be consistent with the other choices you've made throughout the game and in your party's quests or you just get called a hypocrite and your arguments fall flat.


White March, to me, felt similar to when I first played Shivering Isles: a very well-written, deeply thematic region (both visually and narratively) and side story, with some great locations. And Durgan's Battery is one of my favourite dungeon delves tout court: it's just brilliantly designed. The Forgotten Sanctum in Deadfire beats it just barely in my view, but that one's almost literally insane. 

The main problem with Pillars is the same thing that attracted me: it's very much in love with its own lore and metaphysics and can be a bit self-indulgent with the narration, so if you're not into deep fantasy worldbuilding nonsense, it's all a bit much. But it's put together beautifully, and it's quite a bit more visible in Deadfire that they were willing to get weirder than "medieval fantasy BG successor".

----------


## Triaxx

Pillars threw me at first by starting in the middle of the story. And we didn't learn about the start of it until almost halfway through the game.

And then the end of the game hung on for ages.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

So got to Defiance Bay fastest I have so far, while completing both the Temple of Eothas and actually finding that hollowborn cure quest in the first village. Again I'm feeling as if the level curve is a bit off, it's about the beginning of Act 1 proper and I'm already level 4. Although I think it now slows to a crawl as I wander around looking for sidequests.

Going Monk was a great idea, there's nothing more satisfying than building up a couple of Sounds and then activating Swift Strikes. Plus I actually have the points in Survival to teach the kid to use that darn knife.

Next stop the library, to progress Eder's personal quest!

----------


## Mr.Silver

Yeah, monk's a pretty fun class. My last run was as a monk using dread cannoneer's belt (for access to firebrand) and turning wheel and spent a lot of combat incinerating things.

I have been toying with taking another run at Pillars, if only to test out one of the off-beat builds (either implement Ranger or tank/riposte Rogue; although caster Chanter and kamikaze Barbarian aren't completely off the table). Just a matter of finding the time, what with all the stuff in my backlog plus an ongoing replay of _Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines_ (which should be fairly smooth sailing again now I've done The Warrens).

----------


## Cazero

NEO:TWEWY made it to Steam. So that's what I'm going to be playing for a while.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Ah Readric's Hold, surely this sidequest will go well and I won't leave a trail of corpses in my wake.

(Proceeds to kill everybody in the castle because she can't find the right place to click to do the talky solution.)

I'd probably reload that, but I'd have to do a Durance conversation all over again. Guess I'm soldiering on with the blood of an entire castle on my hands.

----------


## Taevyr

Yeah, Raedric's is one of the most broad in approach options, similar to Fort Deadlight in Deadfire, but a lot less intuitive. Especially when playing through for the first time, you probably won't intuit how it works, and I doubt I would if I replayed it now since it's been several years.

I enjoyed climbing over the walls, personally.

----------


## AlanBruce

Downloaded Limbo, a little indie game from the Xbox 360 era, now available on PS Plus.

Its a side scroller where you control a child and traverse lethal puzzles and deadly environments. The use of color is pretty much non existent- its all shadows. This meshes really well with the tone of the game.

If you have access to it, give it a try. Its really short and engaging. Also, I am almost certain it may have inspired later games like Little Nightmares and its sequel.

----------


## Rynjin

Limbo hype is back? What year is it!?!

One of the original indie darlings for sure. Never let it be forgotten that the Xbox Live Arcade is what kicked off the "indie renaissance", and Limbo was one of the biggest hits that came out of that era.

You're not wrong on how influential and important it was...though as a standalone game I've always felt it was a lot of style over substance.

If you're taking a walk through Xbox Live Arcade indie classics, you'll probably want to check out Braid as well.

Limbo itself also has a sort of spiritual successor from the same studio, Inside, which has a bit more meat to it IMO.

----------


## Wookieetank

> If you're taking a walk through Xbox Live Arcade indie classics, you'll probably want to check out Braid as well.


And for sheer ridiculousness, *I Maed a Gam3 w1th Zombies 1n It!!!1* is quite entertaining.  Seems its free on Steam these days.

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

> Downloaded Limbo, a little indie game from the Xbox 360 era, now available on PS Plus.
> 
> Its a side scroller where you control a child and traverse lethal puzzles and deadly environments. The use of color is pretty much non existent- its all shadows. This meshes really well with the tone of the game.
> 
> If you have access to it, give it a try. Its really short and engaging. Also, I am almost certain it may have inspired later games like Little Nightmares and its sequel.


I have this untouched in my Steam library, sounds like Ill have to crack it open. How short is short? Are we talking, done over a free weekend or done over a few weeks?

----------


## Eldan

Done in an afternoon, max.

----------


## warty goblin

Speaking of horrible nightmare realms and things with meat on them, I played about 15 minutes of Scorn this morning. I would have played more, but time was limited.

So I think the first 15 minutes are really, really good. I really cannot emphasize enough just how phenomenal the visuals are, it's like a piece of really high detail concept art you can walk around in. A weird, gross piece of meat filled, decayed, inexplicable and probably hostile concept art. Youtube absolutely does not do this justice.

In terms of the actual game, it seems to be mostly puzzles, exploration, and "environmental storytelling" a thing I usually find boring since it means a dead body next to an audiolog explaining how a plot relevant monster is about to kill them, and the password to their safe is 2643 or whatever. Here it seems to be figuring out what weird bits of machinery still work, what they do, what happens when you stick bits of yourself inside them, and generally just looking at stuff.

----------


## Cygnia

I've been curious about Scorn -- how triggering can in be in terms of gore/death/jump scares?

----------


## GloatingSwine

> I've been curious about Scorn -- how triggering can in be in terms of gore/death/jump scares?


From what I hear, nowhere near as triggering as how terrible and frustrating the combat and save system are.

----------


## Cespenar

Tried Ozymandias, a bronze age 4x so minimalist that it's almost a tabletop board game. Still plenty deep though, and one game runs about 1-2 hours, so there are plenty to like about it.

----------


## warty goblin

> I've been curious about Scorn -- how triggering can in be in terms of gore/death/jump scares?


I've played a lot of very gory FOS games, but have pretty much zero tolerance for more overt horror stuff. I wouldn't say I'm triggered by it, but I definitely really dislike it, make of that what you will. Also I've so far played like 15 minutes, so I hardly even have a representative sample of the game.

So far I'd say Scorn has zero jump scares, or really scares at all. It isn't super gory either, at least in the sense of dismemberments or extreme suffering or anything. You do get the world's creepiest Nintendo Power Glove made up of mollusk shells and disturbing sexual undertones grafted into your arm, and there's some blood there, but it's more unsettling than horrifying.

----------


## Sigako

> NEO:TWEWY made it to Steam. So that's what I'm going to be playing for a while.


For reals? F**k, I had to create an Epic account for this game alone. B***rs.

----------


## factotum

> For reals? F**k, I had to create an Epic account for this game alone. B***rs.


I'd say that's on you, Epic exclusives are never "for ever exclusive".

----------


## Saambell

> I'd say that's on you, Epic exclusives are never "for ever exclusive".


Though they may end up on not the system you think they will. One game I was interested in, Ooblets, a farming sim creature collector with card game battle system, was an early Epic exclusive, and due to angry people harassing the dev team, when it finally stopped being exclusive, they ported it to switch rather then let it come to steam. Steam still has it listed as "release date pending" when its been on Epic for years and Switch for a few months now. Goes to show that the more you harass the devs, the less inclined they are to give the angry people what they want. Given the rumoured amount they got for making the game an exclusive, since it was a two person husband and wife team, that pay check will last them years. Very little need to give in to the angry people when they can coast for a nice bit. 

But yeah, on the whole, Epic exclusives, heck most exclusives nowadays, don't last. Unless its a Sony or Nintendo game, then the odds are a LOT slimmer. But even then, hello Spiderman and God of War. And Nintendo is one of the most emulated companies, so given enough time even those.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Really getting into Defiance Bay now. Yeah, I can see why people might be turned off here, it is very much Torment style conversations rather than dungeon crawling.

On the other hand, this is a better open world game than anything AAA from the last five to ten years. Sure the individual environments are small, but there's a lot of actual stuff to do and it feels like the world reacts to it.

Now only a couple more things to do and then I'll head to Heritage Hill.

----------


## Sigako

> I'd say that's on you, Epic exclusives are never "for ever exclusive".


And now I checked - even if the Steam has it, it isn't listed in my region. At least in Epic I can still play it.

----------


## Zombimode

For the past month or so I tried to get into Wasteland 3.

I started the game, played for a bit, and put it back only to pick it up againt a week or so later. During the last 1-2 weeks I tried to play it more seriously but even in those portions of my free time that I actively plan for gaming I catch myself playing the game for like 20 minutes or an hour, then Alt-Tabbing out and getting distracted by some YouTube video. I'm procrastinating while playing a video game!
Yesterday I admitted to myself that I'm simply having no fun with Wasteland 3.


But I don't really know why.
It is not a case of me suddenly not liking RPGs or video games in general anymore.

And I don't _hate_ the game. There are some minor annoyances but overall it is _fine_.

The visual design is good. The sound design is at least serviceable. The character building is ok and the combat gameplay is ok as well. You can make the argument that it has better combat gameplay than Atom RPG or Fallout 1&2.
As for setting design, characters, plot and writing I don't bounce off of those immediately as well.
But maybe we are getting somewhere.

While there is nothing that I _hate_, there is also really much that _hooks_ me  :Small Annoyed:

----------


## warty goblin

Wasteland 3 is fine and does pretty much everything it does fine. I'm not sure it does anything particularly unique or executes any bit of its formula exceptionally well though. Writing? Yep, that's some just fine RPG writing. Combat? It's a decent rendition of post-XCOM move-n-shoot cover combat, but there's like a zillion games that do more or less the same thing about as well. Worldbuilding? Of all the black comedy post-apocalypses with mutants and stuff, this is another of them. 

Which kinda makes it hard to really fall for.

----------


## Cespenar

The combat is fine in Wasteland 3. It's just too much combat and too little investment in story and plot. Also, worse writing than the classic Bioware/Obsidian level doesn't help either.

Funnily enough, all of those problems were even worse in the previous game.

----------


## Erloas

I suppose it depends on how much you like turn based combat, I felt like it executed on the genre very well, but the genre can feel slow and take a while to really develop, especially when you don't get the more interesting things until later.  Although it's been a long time since I played so I don't remember the beginning, and I've been playing that style of games since Fallout 1 so there is a lot of nostalgia value for me.

The world and story design is a blend of serious and big concepts and silly and a bit ridiculous, and I can see that being off-putting for some.  It felt like it matched the other games and Fallout 1&2, but it's still not for everyone.

----------


## Sermil

Bouncing off _Rogue Legacy 2_. I usually don't play action games, but I really liked _Hades_ (finished all the endings!) and this sounded similar -- rogue-like action but with between-run progression so that you can grind your way out of trouble if you aren't very good at twitch games (I'm not very good at twitch games).

Unfortunately, _RL2_ has been a disappointment. It's inferior to _Hades_ in both gameplay and story. In story, there's almost nothing there. There's some occasional cryptic notes about stuff, but the main character has literally 0 personality. There's a few people you can talk to and they'll say some semi-witty remark, but I have really zero interest in any of them. In _Hades_, even if I was getting a bit stuck on progressing, I knew each run would at least give me another chance to throw sarcastic barbs at my father or bond with Dusa. Here, when the gameplay gets tiring, I just don't care enough to keep going.

The gameplay is better, but even there, it just doesn't quite live up to _Hades_. _Hades_ wasn't perfect, but _RL2_ really emphasizes going into the easy areas and clearing them out again and again. In the former, once you were good at the first level, you sped through it and spent most of your time in the later levels you were still struggling with; in _RL2_, I spend at least half my time in areas I can easily breeze through, because that's how you get gold and how you get artifacts and hitpoints. Also, in _Hades_, you had a few choices of weapon, but there were few enough that you could master one or two; in _RL2_, there are so many classes, and you have a limited random selection each time, so I feel like I'm forgetting how to play each. 

Also, the difficulty curve at the end is really steep. The 5th level (Sun Tower) is really hard; even though I can reliably clear the first 4, I usually only get a few rooms into the 5th. I feel like I'm really hitting a wall with it and am getting pretty close to just dropping the game.

----------


## ShneekeyTheLost

I found a hidden little indie gem called Crystal Project that I've found tickles the retro gaming itch I've had lately. 

Consider, if you will, an old-school Final Fantasy game with a Job system, your basic four man band, and throw it into a 2.5D isometric platformer in a deliberately blocky aesthetic world. 

Combat is fairly straightforward, they have a new spin on the old ATB. Spells have casting times so your spell might not go off until after the enemy acts so keep an eye on it. Aggro management is something you have to manage with some classes having particular skills which rely on having high (or lowest) aggro. 

You start off with a selection of classes that looks extremely familiar to classic FF I players. You have Fighter, Thief, Martial Artist, Black Mage, White Mage, and Red Mage. Some of them have been renamed... but it's still pretty obvious. However, Red Mage has taken a page from some of the more modern implementations of using less powerful versions of white and black magic, although it is the first class that starts applying damage over time effects. Then you find crystals out in the world that give access to a single class, there's like a dozen of them or something?  You level up your job as well as your character. Stats are gained based on which class is equipped when you level up. Don't worry, there's a mid-game place to 'respec' your level-up classes to min-max your stats if that's your thing. You can equip a second 'job' although you don't get that class's innates (such as equipment options). There are also passives you can equip that are in each class's skill tree, however you have a maximum number of passive points to fill, but passives can be equipped (once unlocked) regardless of what class you have. Think of it like a Charm system from Hollow Knight. 

It actually has some Metroidvania beats, using a series of mounts as traversal skills with their various merits and flaws to be utilized to get to where you previously couldn't. And of course speedrunners have already found sequence breaks. But really, the game is intended for you to find your own path, so the devs expect (and at least to a certain degree, embrace) sequence breaks. 

The biggest problem I have with the game is that it is a 2.5d isometric world that requires platforming. Usually there isn't much in the way of punishment, but given you can't move your camera angle (mostly, your L and R binds can rock the camera angle slightly) means some extremely awkward platforming. 

Something I personally don't have a problem with but some do is that this game doesn't really hold your hand like a modern game in terms of where quest goals are. There is no quest tracker (although there is a quest list), there is no objective dot on your map, there is no glowing line to follow to your intended destination. Heck, you have to obtain each region's map separately before you can use it! About the best you'll get is 'in this region over by this landmark', and you'll have to find it yourself from there. I find it a refreshing change, others have found it annoying, YMMV. 

So if you've got the hankering for some retro RPG action while navigating your way through a world that looks like it should be a FF: Tactics combat scene with a surprisingly nuanced ATB and class system and encouraged to simply go out and explore and to hades with the plot... I urge you to check it out.

----------


## Cespenar

> Bouncing off _Rogue Legacy 2_. I usually don't play action games, but I really liked _Hades_ (finished all the endings!) and this sounded similar -- rogue-like action but with between-run progression so that you can grind your way out of trouble if you aren't very good at twitch games (I'm not very good at twitch games).


Although it's not feasible in general to compare other games to the current multiple-genres-dominating title (arguable, but still), I agree with your takes in general. It's not a bad game IMHO, but has definitely too much padding.

----------


## Zevox

I'm closing in on the end of my Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle replay - I'm now midway through the fourth and, IIRC, final area. Which means I _just_ acquired the last character, Yoshi, who comes in entirely too late in the game I must say. Even the next-latest character you acquire, Rabbid Yoshi, who you get midway through the third area, it feels like you get at least a decent amount of time with, about 1/3 or so of the game, but regular Yoshi is only going to have a tiny chunk of it (1/8, unless there's a fifth area I've forgotten) where he's available.

Honestly, team composition limitations is my main criticism of the game as it stands. Yoshi and, to a lesser degree, Rabbid Yoshi coming in as late as they do means you don't get much time to use them. You can only ever use two of your teammates at a time, since the team is capped at 3 and you are always locked into using Mario. And finally, a strange restriction I'd forgotten about until just recently when I tried to put together a team that broke it: you cannot make a team without at least one Rabbid. Which means that Luigi, Peach, and Yoshi can never be on the same team as each other, since Mario is always locked into use. That one's just strange, like the developers were insecure about the possibility of people sidelining the Rabbids as soon as you got access to Peach or something. Or maybe they thought that, since the non-Rabbid character always get an Overwatch-style move, having a full team with those moves would be overpowered? I dunno, this is pure speculation for a very strange decision, but it's one that I hope is gone in the sequel. Along with these other little issues.

Beyond that, I've been pretty pleased trying out the non-Luigi characters. Since obtaining them I've mostly used Rabbid Mario and Peach as my team, and oh gods, did I underestimate them the first time around. I figured that the way their shotgun weapons' damage dropped off with range would be a big issue, as well the extra risks inherent in Rabbid Mario in particular being a strictly close-range specialist, but not at all. Rabbid Mario is like a walking bomb. All of his attacks, including his dash attack, are AoEs that do big damage. Sending him into a cluster of foes to do as many dash attacks as possible, then using his Magnet Dance ability to draw them in next to him and whacking them with his hammer will wipe out just about anything that isn't a boss in one go. Peach is less of a powerhouse, but she's crazy durable, making going into close range for high-damage shotgun blasts much more reasonable than I had thought, and the free healing she gets with every team jump is also far more effective than I thought, since it's a healing effect you can get every turn, even if it is only 10-20% instead of the larger heals that Rabbid Peach or Rabbid Luigi (via Vampiric Dash) are capable of. Her ability to take some of the damage when her team members get hit is quite handy at times too - though it's also the one ability in the game that I think I actively don't want to max out, because it seems better to me to keep it at a 60/40 split rather than "upgrade" it so that Peach takes all of the damage. Makes it easier to recover the health give her AoE healing effect if it's spread out.

Also, it's just kind of nice that Peach wasn't designed in the super stereotypical way you'd expect. Being normally a damsel in distress type, I would've figured she'd be more like Luigi or Rabbid Peach - squishy and entirely a support role, maybe the party sniper so she didn't need to get too close to the danger. Instead, she's the party tank, and while still primarily a support-type character, she can definitely dish out some big pain with that shotgun.

I haven't played with the Yoshis as much, since I just got regular Yoshi and Rabbid Yoshi didn't look to synergize that well with Peach or Rabbid Mario, but regular Yoshi looks fun too. Albeit it's kind of awkward that the free ground-pound AoE he gets off team jumps seems to destroy any destructible cover anywhere near where he lands, which makes that ability hard to use. Rabbid Yoshi's more eh - I feel like he synergizes best with Luigi, since his "scare" ability forces enemies out of cover but away from him, which is better for a sniper like Luigi than shotgun-wielders like Rabbid Mario or Peach, but since I used Luigi extensively my first time through the game I'm trying to avoid using him this time. Also, from the one time I tried using the two Yoshis together, I quickly realized that a team with no source of healing whatsoever is probably a bad idea. Which means including either Rabbid Peach, Peach, or Rabbid Luigi in every team. And since I'm avoiding Rabbid Luigi in particular, well, that means one of the Peaches is going to be mandatory in every team for me. (Technically Rabbid Mario can also inflict Vampiric with his weapons, but unlike Rabbid Luigi there's no guarantee, and he tends to just kill anything he attacks anyway, so I'm not going to count him as a healing source.)

----------


## Form

> I've been curious about Scorn -- how triggering can in be in terms of gore/death/jump scares?


I've not played it myself, but I have seen a full playthrough of it. I don't remember there being any jump scares and there aren't many gory scenes, but there are a couple and the squick is significant. This is especially true in the endgame. Aside from that the environment also tends be fleshy and it's got H.R. Giger as inspiration written all over it. If you're very sensitive to gore or just don't want to see it, you might want to pass on Scorn.

----------


## Spore

Marvel Snap is an awesome game. And thus far I have not seen a useless card. Of course this is day 1 and decks are unrefined, but the changing locations and 2 out of three mechanic makes it difficult for meta decks to dominate.

----------


## warty goblin

Returned to World of Warships after a solid two weeks away. Yeah the F2P crap still sucks, and yeah the game has issues. But aside from nearly archeologically old titles, it's the only source for arcade battleship on battleship action*, and however weird some aspects of the game are, it does a good job of it.

And really, popping up at 11 km in HMS Incomparable and delivering a couple 20 inch shells into the citadel of some poor cruiser is never gonna get old. 


*and War Thunder, but the grind there is even worse by all accounts.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Now I remember why I hate open world games. I get a quest to kill some ghosts in a lighthouse, and as I'm level five this seems reasonable.

I enter the lighthouse and geymt swarmed by about twenty higher level ghosts. Maybe this sidequest should have unlocked an act later.

Well guess it's off to Heritage Hill, hopefully I'll find a cute cat!

----------


## Taevyr

PoE has a few of those "come back later" encounters, most notably the Endless Paths, as they're designed to be gradually explored over the course of the entire game. I personally like having those in a game: makes it more realistic than everything "conveniently" being around your level, but I can see why it could be irritating.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> PoE has a few of those "come back later" encounters, most notably the Endless Paths, as they're designed to be gradually explored over the course of the entire game. I personally like having those in a game: makes it more realistic than everything "conveniently" being around your level, but I can see why it could be irritating.


Mostly I think a bit more warning is needed. At the end of the day it got me back onto the main quest at about the right time, but it also feels like I'm leaving more undone than I should. Plus I've got one quest unlocked which is presented as pretty urgent, but I know will kill me if I try it from my first attempt at a playthrough.

Well I've put all that behind me and it's off to The White Marsh. Partially because I want to make sure I don't forget it, and partially because I still don't have a Rogue in the party. I'm also considering dropping Durance, it leaves me without a healer but he is just annoying as hell. Maybe if I switch from Normal to Easy that'll be fine.

Also already trying to plan my class for Deadfire. I know I want to stay Monk, but I'm considering mixing it with one of Barbarian, Fighter, or Rogue.

----------


## NRSASD

> Mostly I think a bit more warning is needed. At the end of the day it got me back onto the main quest at about the right time, but it also feels like I'm leaving more undone than I should. Plus I've got one quest unlocked which is presented as pretty urgent, but I know will kill me if I try it from my first attempt at a playthrough.
> 
> Well I've put all that behind me and it's off to The White Marsh. Partially because I want to make sure I don't forget it, and partially because I still don't have a Rogue in the party. I'm also considering dropping Durance, it leaves me without a healer but he is just annoying as hell. Maybe if I switch from Normal to Easy that'll be fine.
> 
> Also already trying to plan my class for Deadfire. I know I want to stay Monk, but I'm considering mixing it with one of Barbarian, Fighter, or Rogue.


Enjoy the White March! Theres a rogue in there whos a unique species, an automata if I remember right. The Devil of Caroc I think?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Enjoy the White March! Theres a rogue in there whos a unique species, an automata if I remember right. The Devil of Caroc I think?


Yeah, I was hinting at her.

Honestly seriously considering switching down to Story Mode, because the combat is just not that enjoyable. Sorry RTWP, but you are just the less loved sibling compared to turn based combat

----------


## Cygnia

Finished Iron Danger.  It just...ended.  

It seems like they're setting up for a sequel, but it left me unfulfilled.

----------


## MCerberus

I've got all this backlog I need to work th-

Oh look a 40 hour jrpg I've beaten twice has the bonus edition on game pass.
Haha persona time
edit - and to answer the follow-up question, Makoto, the objectively correct answer

----------


## Zevox

> I've got all this backlog I need to work th-
> 
> Oh look a 40 hour jrpg I've beaten twice has the bonus edition on game pass.
> Haha persona time
> edit - and to answer the follow-up question, Makoto, the objectively correct answer


40 hour? I can count the number of times I've beaten a Persona game in under 100 hours on one hand, and even those were over 80 hours.  :Small Tongue: 

Seriously though, I have no idea how you would get through Persona 5 in only 40 hours unless you were skipping a heck of a lot of things.

----------


## MCerberus

> 40 hour? I can count the number of times I've beaten a Persona game in under 100 hours on one hand, and even those were over 80 hours. 
> 
> Seriously though, I have no idea how you would get through Persona 5 in only 40 hours unless you were skipping a heck of a lot of things.


Oh for some reason my brain completely erased my relation to time and memory when it comes to persona games some time when I was playing p4r. Something about the cousin. I sure am glad nothing stunningly awful happens in that game.

----------


## warty goblin

Been faffing around in Ranked in Warships. This season Bronze League (where everyone always starts) is Tier 5 only. Since both subs and carriers are only even tiered, it's 9nly surface ships.

T5 only is weird. Cruisers at T5 suck because almost none of them have heals, and most have citadel for miles. This makes them easy  prey for battleships, because what low tier battleships lack in accuracy, they make up for in sheer number of barrels. So you get like one suicidal cruiser player on each side, who usually immediately explodes in a hail of 12, 13.4 and 14 inch shells from the salivating battleships.

But without cruisers, their natural predators, destroyers are almost completely unchecked. The plethora of slow, lumbering battleships sailing in very straight lines to get all their weird amidships turrets off means torpedo heavy DDs are having a field day. So if you pick a gun heavy DD, you can just murder overconfident and undergunned torpedo boats, then torpedo the battleships anyway. Sure you don't torpedo them as well, but you're faster and stealthier, what are they gonna do about it?

I'm normally awful in destroyers, but this is just fantastic. I'm making it rain First Blood (get the first kill) and Devastating Strike (get a kill with a single salvo that does at least 50% damage) achievements.

----------


## MCerberus

If I'm converting the tiers right, that's the tier with the Kamakazi right? thing's a nightmare.

----------


## warty goblin

> If I'm converting the tiers right, that's the tier with the Kamakazi right? thing's a nightmare.


Yep, there are a lot of Kamikazis. It is indeed a nightmare, and why I pretty quickly switched from battleships to destroyers. At least in Ohkotnik or something French or the psycho knife fighting Italian DD I have a chance.

----------


## Zevox

> Oh for some reason my brain completely erased my relation to time and memory when it comes to persona games some time when I was playing p4r. Something about the cousin. I sure am glad nothing stunningly awful happens in that game.


Ah, but without something stunningly awful happening, would it even be a Persona game?

Which reminds me: if you haven't played Royal before, make sure you make a point of maxing out the two new Confidants (Faith and Councilor), plus Justice (which is no longer automatic). That's how you unlock the "third semester," the extra story at the end.

----------


## factotum

> Which reminds me: if you haven't played Royal before, make sure you make a point of maxing out the two new Confidants (Faith and Councilor), plus Justice (which is no longer automatic). That's how you unlock the "third semester," the extra story at the end.


You only need Councilor to unlock the third semester. The other two are "nice to haves" that give you some extra content once you reach the third semester, but are not necessary to actually get there.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> I've got all this backlog I need to work th-
> 
> Oh look a 40 hour jrpg I've beaten twice has the bonus edition on game pass.
> Haha persona time
> edit - and to answer the follow-up question, Makoto, the objectively correct answer


Put a 2 in front of that 40....

Long Persona is Long.

Royal makes it much easier to max everything out because Bedtime Cat is not as strict and you can do things in Leblanc some nights where you couldn't in vanilla to boost your social stats. By the end of the game I was just sending Joker to the gym to get swole.

----------


## Cygnia

Starting Final Fantasy 9.  I still don't feel inspired to get back and finish up FF8 though.

----------


## Wookieetank

> Starting Final Fantasy 9.  I still don't feel inspired to get back and finish up FF8 though.


FF8 is a much better game when you go into it not thinking of it as a Final Fantasy game.  I was able to enjoy it when playing it as just a random JRPG.  When it first came out and I was playing it fresh off of FF7, so much hatred for it though.  And the dark grey menus/chat boxes are just awful. /rant

----------


## Cygnia

I just wanna punt Squall for being so insufferable.  Should have had Quistis be the main protagonist.

Oh well.  Dug out my little plush Vivi from back in the day to watch me play (and he's cuddling with my Eevee).  Steam has some stuff I have on my wishlist for sale, but I need to go through my backlog before I buy any more (unless there's a REALLY good deal -- and nothing yet has dropped that much for me to pull the trigger).

----------


## ShneekeyTheLost

> Starting Final Fantasy 9.  I still don't feel inspired to get back and finish up FF8 though.


I wasn't a big fan of 7, and 8 really turned me off on the series. But I did quite enjoy 9, if for no other reason than all the liberally applied nostalgia bait, even if it took me years after the fact to play it. I found 10 to be mechanically sound but the storyline was lacking. X-2 is... something I prefer to avoid thinking about in general.

Honestly, I haven't really found a final fantasy game that I've felt good about since X (other than ARR I suppose, I have a problem with MMO's in general but it's the best offering I've found in that genre). I suppose the franchise went one direction, and I went another.

As a fan of the classics, I thought that FF 9 was a great game. It had good mechanics, it had a good plot and storyline, the individual characters all were developed from flawed beginnings and experienced character growth as the game unfolded. 

Lately, I've been playing the Pixel Remaster version of my old favorites. In particular FF 3 (the one with the Onion Knights, not the one with the half-esper) got a significant overhaul and has become a much more enjoyable game with the Pixel Remaster. The FF1 PR was also good, incorporating a lot of improvements from the GBA re-release which fixed many of the bugs but not including the postgame content that later editions featured. I'm trying to block out some time to play IV and VI because I know I'm gonna need it when I get started on those, which I consider the pinnacle of the franchise.

----------


## Zevox

> FF8 is a much better game when you go into it not thinking of it as a Final Fantasy game.  I was able to enjoy it when playing it as just a random JRPG.  When it first came out and I was playing it fresh off of FF7, so much hatred for it though.  And the dark grey menus/chat boxes are just awful. /rant


Eh, speaking as someone who went into it as only his third or fourth game in the franchise, and not being a big fan of the ones he had tried along the way, no, I don't think it does. That game's problems are with poor writing and mechanics (the whole magic drawing system and how tedious it is made me hate it pretty fast), not with the fact that it's Final Fantasy.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I'm honestly not a massive fan of any Final Fantasy game. Never played them as a kid, and while what I've played of the early ones is enjoyable there's generally a point where I just get bored. Then FFIV went and made the battles significantly more boring.

Yeah, I'll stick to MegaTen for my JRPGs (although I can't afford P5 Royal until it goes on sale).

I am, however, vaguely interest if FFIII kept the more defined characters of the DS version.

----------


## MCerberus

There is only one revenge against bedtime cat
*Spoiler*
Show

----------


## Spore

> I'm honestly not a massive fan of any Final Fantasy game. Never played them as a kid, and while what I've played of the early ones is enjoyable there's generally a point where I just get bored. Then FFIV went and made the battles significantly more boring.
> 
> Yeah, I'll stick to MegaTen for my JRPGs (although I can't afford P5 Royal until it goes on sale).


I am sorry, but are you just comparing 30 year old games with modern RPGs?

That feels like comparing comparing Doom (the original) with the most recent Doom. Sure it is the same genre and scratches a similar itch, but 30 years worth of genre evolution changed even more than on my haphazard shooter comparison. You could summarize early Final Fantasy stories on a napkin if you really wanted. But even that feels reductionist (aside from Final Fantasy 1, which is basically just "four people save the world, the game").

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I am sorry, but are you just comparing 30 year old games with modern RPGs?


Yeah, and in terms of the Final Fantasy series those 30 year old ones seem to be better. I through VI are the ones I actually enjoyed, although X had a good battle system.

I mean, I suspect I'll enjoy Dragon Quest XI when I get round to it, so maybe it's just Final Fantasy and not JRPGs in general.




> That feels like comparing comparing Doom (the original) with the most recent Doom. Sure it is the same genre and scratches a similar itch, but 30 years worth of genre evolution changed even more than on my haphazard shooter comparison. You could summarize early Final Fantasy stories on a napkin if you really wanted. But even that feels reductionist (aside from Final Fantasy 1, which is basically just "four people save the world, the game").


Honestly Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 still hold up. They're definitely not games that everybody needs to play, but they're still incredibly enjoyable. Part of that has to do with the noughties taking shooters in a completely different direction, but they're still fun. A pain to get rumming without a source mod, but fun*. I should probably get Ion Fury.

There's a lot to say for simplicity. I've played most of FFXIII, and all I can remember is that Vanille has a nude scene and that I didn't do enough grinding on Gran Pulse. On the other hand I can remember IV's story much more clearly, even if I don't like the gameplay.

I should probably get back to Bravely Default. I liked that one, felt like old-school Final Fantasy.

* No, I don't use Brutal Doom or anything.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> I mean, I suspect I'll enjoy Dragon Quest XI when I get round to it, so maybe it's just Final Fantasy and not JRPGs in general.


Yeah, it pretty much is Final Fantasy. It doesn't help that I think the last one that wasn't an absolute development cluster**** was 12 and that sounds recent given that 15 is the most recent but it was 16 years ago now.  The series developed a pretty severe lack of focus after Sakaguchi left Square, and if I was going to reccommend a JRPG to someone any given Final Fantasy would at this point be pretty low down the list.

If you want to kill god with the power of friendship these days Persona, Xenoblade, Octopath, Trails, and so on all scratch various bits of the JRPG itch way better.

----------


## factotum

> A pain to get rumming without a source mod, but fun*.


Not really? Just use DosBOX or DosBOX-X, either will run Doom just fine--you just need to fiddle a bit with config files and the DOS command line, but anyone who was gaming at the actual time Doom was originally released already knows all about that sort of thing.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Not really? Just use DosBOX or DosBOX-X, either will run Doom just fine--you just need to fiddle a bit with config files and the DOS command line, but anyone who was gaming at the actual time Doom was originally released already knows all about that sort of thing.


If I'm going to mess around with DOS I'll do it on an actual vintage PC!

Which considering I know own a ZX Spectrum isn't that unlikely.

----------


## Cespenar

Talking about old games, I just gave Monkey Island 1 a try since I had only played a tiny bit of it before. The talkie version, of course, with voice acting and such.

Gotta say, the game holds up pretty okay -- the puzzles are way more intuitive than I expected them to be... I'd say even more than the average modern retro adventure title. Only had to open up a walkthrough twice in the end, on the final (Monkey) island. Humor is better than the newest Monkey Island too, with just a couple of eyeroll-y sequences overall.

Color me surprised and not surprised at the same time. I guess there was a reason it got famous in the first place.

----------


## tonberrian

Victoria 3 came out and it's devoured my free time. I'm no good at it yet, but it is a difficult learning curve.

----------


## Spore

> There's a lot to say for simplicity. I've played most of FFXIII, and all I can remember is that Vanille has a nude scene and that I didn't do enough grinding on Gran Pulse. On the other hand I can remember IV's story much more clearly, even if I don't like the gameplay.


A huge problem imho is that Final Fantasy feels it needs to cater fan service to its core fanbase. If there are no references to another FF, all-but spelled out rule 34 calls and neither of the following words*, their fanbase seems to have a meltdown even if they don't really.

*Ultima, Meteor, Holy, Cure, Dragoon

----------


## AlanBruce

Was playing the just released Shadows of Rose DLC, an expansion to Resident Evil Village.

This one focuses on the titular character, Rose, in what may best be described as a surreal trip. Beautiful visuals, an interesting new mechanic and being in 3rd person made the experience enjoyable for me. I couldnt really become invested in the main character since its a relatively short game (my first playthrough took 3 hours). However as a story, it wraps up that chapter in the franchise nicely.

----------


## Mark Hall

Been putting of the rest of Wrath of the Righteous. Most recent distraction has been getting back into LOTRO, which I have apparently been playing, off and on, for 11 years.

----------


## ShneekeyTheLost

> Yeah, and in terms of the Final Fantasy series those 30 year old ones seem to be better. I through VI are the ones I actually enjoyed, although X had a good battle system.
> 
> I mean, I suspect I'll enjoy Dragon Quest XI when I get round to it, so maybe it's just Final Fantasy and not JRPGs in general.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 still hold up. They're definitely not games that everybody needs to play, but they're still incredibly enjoyable. Part of that has to do with the noughties taking shooters in a completely different direction, but they're still fun. A pain to get rumming without a source mod, but fun*. I should probably get Ion Fury.
> 
> There's a lot to say for simplicity. I've played most of FFXIII, and all I can remember is that Vanille has a nude scene and that I didn't do enough grinding on Gran Pulse. On the other hand I can remember IV's story much more clearly, even if I don't like the gameplay.
> ...


The Dragon Quest games are pretty decent, I think you'd like them if you enjoyed early Final Fantasy. They at least retained their focus. DQ 11 has been a favorite of mine for a lot of reasons. Most specifically, my favorite feature is the ability to go 2D. Gives more of a retro-modern feel to it. 

I would suggest the remakes of the older titles, though. Especially 2, the original NES version's boss had a spell called 'HealAll', which was a really rude thing to do. The first one was just 'Grind, the game' since the current RNG manip speedrun that doesn't grind ends in under a half hour. But 2 and 3 were really good for their own reasons. Number 2 was the first iteration of a party in the DQ series, and while the second character became nigh useless, it was at least an attempt. The third one allowed you to form your own party, and the remake includes functions from future games such as whip class weapons hitting enemy groups and boomerang class weapons hitting all enemies plus the token hunt for more prizes. 

It's generally organized into trilogies. 1-3 were a trilogy with 2 being a sequel to 1 set several generations forward, and 3 was a prequel setting up the events for 1. 4-6 was the next trilogy of games and focused more on individual characters and developing backstories of your support cast. 7-9 was yet another trilogy of games that were connected to each other. 10 was an MMO that never made it to the US. 11 is theoretically the start of a new trilogy, and has callbacks to all of the previous games without limiting itself to the mechanics of the predecessors. It's certainly worth playing, IMO.

----------


## Zevox

> The Dragon Quest games are pretty decent, I think you'd like them if you enjoyed early Final Fantasy. They at least retained their focus. DQ 11 has been a favorite of mine for a lot of reasons. Most specifically, my favorite feature is the ability to go 2D. Gives more of a retro-modern feel to it. 
> 
> I would suggest the remakes of the older titles, though. Especially 2, the original NES version's boss had a spell called 'HealAll', which was a really rude thing to do. The first one was just 'Grind, the game' since the current RNG manip speedrun that doesn't grind ends in under a half hour. But 2 and 3 were really good for their own reasons. Number 2 was the first iteration of a party in the DQ series, and while the second character became nigh useless, it was at least an attempt. The third one allowed you to form your own party, and the remake includes functions from future games such as whip class weapons hitting enemy groups and boomerang class weapons hitting all enemies plus the token hunt for more prizes. 
> 
> It's generally organized into trilogies. 1-3 were a trilogy with 2 being a sequel to 1 set several generations forward, and 3 was a prequel setting up the events for 1. 4-6 was the next trilogy of games and focused more on individual characters and developing backstories of your support cast. 7-9 was yet another trilogy of games that were connected to each other. 10 was an MMO that never made it to the US. 11 is theoretically the start of a new trilogy, and has callbacks to all of the previous games without limiting itself to the mechanics of the predecessors. It's certainly worth playing, IMO.


Agreed, if you like old JRPGs, Dragon Quest is the series for you. Highest recommendations go to 11 and 8, personally. The only one (aside from the MMO) that I've never gotten through is 7. I've a tried a couple of times, but for some reason, that one really didn't hold my interest.

(Although I don't see how any of the games after the first three are connected? 2 and 3 reference the first one directly, but I don't recall any of the others doing so.)

----------


## Razade

I'll echo that Dragon Quest 11 is really really solid, and long. Lots of content. The game has some weird difficulty spikes throughout, but overall it's well worth the money just from investment to dollar ratio. I've heard 8 is also really good as well but never got around to it.

----------


## ShneekeyTheLost

> Agreed, if you like old JRPGs, Dragon Quest is the series for you. Highest recommendations go to 11 and 8, personally. The only one (aside from the MMO) that I've never gotten through is 7. I've a tried a couple of times, but for some reason, that one really didn't hold my interest.
> 
> (Although I don't see how any of the games after the first three are connected? 2 and 3 reference the first one directly, but I don't recall any of the others doing so.)


The second trilogy of Dragon Quest games (4-6) deal primarily with Zenethia as a main recurring plot device, with the main protagonist generally being unknowingly related to the royal family of that realm until the plot reveal at the end of the game, and a source of their power. 

In addition to 8, I'd also strongly suggest 6 because of its novel class-based system that reminds me strongly of FF 3/5/Tactics Job based systems. You can build just about any character any way you'd like. And theoretically, any character can eventually unlock the Hero class, although for anyone other than the actual protagonist, it requires an excessive amount of grinding (and this from someone who routinely gets involved in the classic Dragon Warrior Randomizer community!) to attain.

----------


## tyckspoon

> (Although I don't see how any of the games after the first three are connected? 2 and 3 reference the first one directly, but I don't recall any of the others doing so.)


4-5-6 are pretty loose - it's really more story structure and mirrored plot beats than direct setting or reused character elements. Each one revolves around collecting a set of relic equipment from an Ancient Precursor People that gives the hero the power necessary to fight the Big Evil of that game. Like how 1-3 are Erdrick (sp) and his descendants, 4-6 are people taking up the mantle of the Sky Guardian People. And honestly they probably wouldn't be perceived as connected except the Ancient Guardian People society has the same name and are depicted in basically the same way in each game, so there's a connecting through line on that (kinda like if Final Fantasy's Cids were identifiably the same individual in multiple games and not just a reused name/stock character type.)

----------


## Anonymouswizard

For the record I've beaten DQ IX, got halfway through DQ VII, and played at least a little bit of each of IV through VI. Most of the reason I've not beaten the earlier ones is no longer having access to a PS2 or the remake cartridges. Compared to Final Fantasy the common elements are also much more obvious, plus it actually uses turn based combat.

Yeah, both DQ XI and P5R are on my Steam wishlist. Although I'm still waiting for P3P to drop on there.

----------


## Mark Hall

Still not able to devote myself to finishing Wrath of the Righteous, I've taken a break for Banished, a medieval city-building game. Two big obstacles for me to overcome

1)  You build your housing, then your population will expand, not vice versa. If you don't have enough housing, couples don't make babies, as their houses are too crowded.
2)  The default is to not tell you when people die of old age. They just... disappear. Which is confusing as heck.

I'm getting better hang of it, but it can be really hard to build up a surplus of anything... I need a way to expand my population enough to get more miners so my blacksmith has enough to make tools, but I haven't figured out the ratio of farmers:workers yet.

----------


## Wookieetank

> Still not able to devote myself to finishing Wrath of the Righteous, I've taken a break for Banished, a medieval city-building game. Two big obstacles for me to overcome
> 
> 1)  You build your housing, then your population will expand, not vice versa. If you don't have enough housing, couples don't make babies, as their houses are too crowded.
> 2)  The default is to not tell you when people die of old age. They just... disappear. Which is confusing as heck.
> 
> I'm getting better hang of it, but it can be really hard to build up a surplus of anything... I need a way to expand my population enough to get more miners so my blacksmith has enough to make tools, but I haven't figured out the ratio of farmers:workers yet.


There's a notification box you can toggle that'll tell you when someone dies and who, if anyone takes their job when they die.

Depending on how much you want to spoil yourself, there's some good youtube guides for early game I found hugely helpful.  Went from dying out within the first 2-3 years, to not knowing how long my game has been going and having a surplus of 39k food.

Still working out juggling jobs properly though, trying to figure out what tasks to short change workers from so you have enough builders to keep houses going up for population growth is quite the trick.  I could probably pull back on my farming/orchard worker pools, but they look so pretty when fully worked.

----------


## Mark Hall

> There's a notification box you can toggle that'll tell you when someone dies and who, if anyone takes their job when they die.


I found that, and it helped; my current standard set up has the jobs list, the basic inventory, and the information screen.




> Still working out juggling jobs properly though, trying to figure out what tasks to short change workers from so you have enough builders to keep houses going up for population growth is quite the trick.  I could probably pull back on my farming/orchard worker pools, but they look so pretty when fully worked.


What really helped me was, as soon as I get the first frost, is to tank all of my farms, and, currently, throw them into the mines, because I'm behind on iron production.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Well that's The White March part 1 and Act 2 of the main game completed. Finally reached Twin Elms and I'm ready to investigate.

However I've discovered that I really just don't care for the combat and I'm only sticking with the game because the story really is that good. However I also just don't care about some of the companions, several can easily come late enough that I have a full party and don't need their skills. And then there's Durance, who feels necessary but is intolerable. I'm kind of just completing the quests of those the game has actually endeared me to. Except for Kans, because I'm going to try to do Old Nua in one go. But the main plot is engaging, and I'm definitely going to gut Thaos for what he's done.

----------


## Wookieetank

> I found that, and it helped; my current standard set up has the jobs list, the basic inventory, and the information screen.


Much as its a bit blocky and not the prettiest, the ease of customizing your UI layout is greatly appreciated.  And if you haven't discovered this bit yet, if you lock a gathering building or town center off to the side of your screen, it'll keep the yellow circle of its effect on screen.  Super helpful for figuring out how you want to layout things.




> What really helped me was, as soon as I get the first frost, is to tank all of my farms, and, currently, throw them into the mines, because I'm behind on iron production.


The merchants can help mitigate this some, but they're sadly not reliable with the random nature of the goods they bring with them.  Trying to use merchants for stone as much as I can, but I think I'm already on my 3rd quarry even with that.  Need to get back to poking around at this game.

----------


## Batcathat

> However I also just don't care about some of the companions, several can easily come late enough that I have a full party and don't need their skills.


I feel like that's an issue in a lot of (probably most) RPGs with optional party members. And probably a hard one to get around, unless you just want to stick all companions close to the beginning.

----------


## Mark Hall

> The merchants can help mitigate this some, but they're sadly not reliable with the random nature of the goods they bring with them.  Trying to use merchants for stone as much as I can, but I think I'm already on my 3rd quarry even with that.  Need to get back to poking around at this game.


Merchants, I find, are either prohibitively expensive or bloody useless. I would love to have 2500 in goods to afford some new seeds... but why can't my gatherers find Walnuts or Chestnuts enough to form a new orchard?

----------


## GloatingSwine

> However I've discovered that I really just don't care for the combat and I'm only sticking with the game because the story really is that good.


PoE1 is definitely the weakest combat of Obsidian's RTWP* revival games. Combats are frequent and messy. I found the best strategy (on normal) was for everyone to stand next to each other and run buff auras whilst I popped abilities as needed.

PoE2 is better because there's less of it per zone, fewer but more significant enemies per encounter, and you have one fewer characters making them less of a mess.

I think Tyranny is actually the best though, only 4 characters to manage but they have combo attacks making them more interesting to manage, things mostly run on cooldowns rather than different resources, and encounters are generally even smaller.

Oh, and _always_ turn on auto-slow in combat. Making them run at half speed makes them 200% more tolerable because they're much less of a scrappy mess.

* I've observed that nobody really _likes_ RTWP. People either have no strong opinion on it or dislike it. It's an awkward space where it's generally not microable enough to scratch the RTS itch because there's too many options all the time but it's still _mostly_ realtime so you don't have a lot of time to plan to use them unless you pause. And the stop-start nature of pausing to plan and do stuff feels worse than a good turn based system.  That's why I always play the modern ones in slow mode, because I don't really have to pause much but still feel like I get to use all the options.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I feel like that's an issue in a lot of (probably most) RPGs with optional party members. And probably a hard one to get around, unless you just want to stick all companions close to the beginning.


To be fair in PoE they all come by the end of Act 2, but the first three are by far more interested in the main quest than the others. Hiravanas is redundant in role with Aloth and I'm really not sure if he has a personal quest, there's four different frontline warriors, and the Devil of Caroc is mostly redundant with a PC Rogue. And yet no real substitute healer.




> PoE1 is definitely the weakest combat of Obsidian's RTWP* revival games. Combats are frequent and messy. I found the best strategy (on normal) was for everyone to stand next to each other and run buff auras whilst I popped abilities as needed.
> 
> PoE2 is better because there's less of it per zone, fewer but more significant enemies per encounter, and you have one fewer characters making them less of a mess.
> 
> I think Tyranny is actually the best though, only 4 characters to manage but they have combo attacks making them more interesting to manage, things mostly run on cooldowns rather than different resources, and encounters are generally even smaller.
> 
> Oh, and _always_ turn on auto-slow in combat. Making them run at half speed makes them 200% more tolerable because they're much less of a scrappy mess.
> 
> * I've observed that nobody really _likes_ RTWP. People either have no strong opinion on it or dislike it. It's an awkward space where it's generally not microable enough to scratch the RTS itch because there's too many options all the time but it's still _mostly_ realtime so you don't have a lot of time to plan to use them unless you pause. And the stop-start nature of pausing to plan and do stuff feels worse than a good turn based system.  That's why I always play the modern ones in slow mode, because I don't really have to pause much but still feel like I get to use all the options.


Tyranny is great,I should really go back to it at some point. And when I get to Deadfire I'm turning on turn based mode ASAP. As it is, I think I'm just going to switch to Easy or Story Mode.

Anyway, I've got the baby. I believe this means I've won the game?

----------


## MCerberus

Tyranny's reputation has really changed in the last few years. When it came out everyone was mostly just kind of 'meh' on it, considering it a disappointment

----------


## GloatingSwine

> To be fair in PoE they all come by the end of Act 2, but the first three are by far more interested in the main quest than the others. Hiravanas is redundant in role with Aloth and I'm really not sure if he has a personal quest, there's four different frontline warriors, and the Devil of Caroc is mostly redundant with a PC Rogue. And yet no real substitute healer.


Druids can be used for healing, so Hiravias can carry you through quite a lot of encounters. Druids are super versatile with heals, offensive spells, and their wildshape that lets them kick out melee damage. Clerics are better as your buffer and healer though so yeah you usually end up using Durance and just putting up with the fact he's a git. Fortunately, this is much improved in PoE2 because Xhoti is awesome.

You get one of each class as companions, so your real choice is what you want to double up on (and which difficulty you're playing on, the higher the difficulty the better Chanters are because combats are longer and they take time to wind up to their best tricks). I think the best class to have two of in the party if ny is Paladins because you can just give them different auras. (My typical PoE1 party has me and Pallegina as sword and board/defense aura and greatsword/offense aura paladins).

----------


## Mechalich

> I've observed that nobody really _likes_ RTWP. People either have no strong opinion on it or dislike it. It's an awkward space where it's generally not microable enough to scratch the RTS itch because there's too many options all the time but it's still _mostly_ realtime so you don't have a lot of time to plan to use them unless you pause. And the stop-start nature of pausing to plan and do stuff feels worse than a good turn based system.  That's why I always play the modern ones in slow mode, because I don't really have to pause much but still feel like I get to use all the options.


The one real advantage of RTWP is that it streamlines curb-stomps. Depending on factors like setup, difficulty, and just where in the power curve the party happens to be that might be a large proportion of the overall encounters. For example, in old-school BGII, by the time you're roughly halfway through the game _every_ encounter requires functionally no thought unless there's either a powerful spellcaster in the enemy group or an annoying puzzle-type monster with energy drain or something.

Going full on turn-based tactics for every encounter, when there are a lot of encounters of minimal risk, feels like a lot of extra work to no purpose

----------


## warty goblin

> The one real advantage of RTWP is that it streamlines curb-stomps. Depending on factors like setup, difficulty, and just where in the power curve the party happens to be that might be a large proportion of the overall encounters. For example, in old-school BGII, by the time you're roughly halfway through the game _every_ encounter requires functionally no thought unless there's either a powerful spellcaster in the enemy group or an annoying puzzle-type monster with energy drain or something.
> 
> Going full on turn-based tactics for every encounter, when there are a lot of encounters of minimal risk, feels like a lot of extra work to no purpose


I feel like the answer there is to not have lots of brainless curb-stomps in the first place. Not every fight needs to be super complex or difficult, and an occasional absolute beat down is fun, because varying combat difficulty and setting are part of good encounter design. Unfortunately a lot of RPGs seem to never get much beyond a room with a couple orcs or whatever and some forgettable loot for most of their fights. Even if the combat is good, I find that really wears out its welcome pretty quickly.

----------


## Bohandas

I spent October playing _Doom_ and _Doom II_ and replaying _Dusk_




> * I've observed that nobody really _likes_ RTWP. People either have no strong opinion on it or dislike it. It's an awkward space where it's generally not microable enough to scratch the RTS itch because there's too many options all the time but it's still _mostly_ realtime so you don't have a lot of time to plan to use them unless you pause. And the stop-start nature of pausing to plan and do stuff feels worse than a good turn based system.  That's why I always play the modern ones in slow mode, because I don't really have to pause much but still feel like I get to use all the options.


I outright refuse to buy any rpg that uses a realtime with pause system. 

Realtime with pause is a fake system anyway. Realtime with pause as opposed to what? What realtime game even is there that you can't pause? Even in sports you can call a time out.




> The one real advantage of RTWP is that it streamlines curb-stomps. Depending on factors like setup, difficulty, and just where in the power curve the party happens to be that might be a large proportion of the overall encounters. For example, in old-school BGII, by the time you're roughly halfway through the game _every_ encounter requires functionally no thought unless there's either a powerful spellcaster in the enemy group or an annoying puzzle-type monster with energy drain or something.
> 
> Going full on turn-based tactics for every encounter, when there are a lot of encounters of minimal risk, feels like a lot of extra work to no purpose


In that case why even have the encounter play out at all? Why not just have an instant win condition like in Earthbound.

----------


## Mechalich

> I feel like the answer there is to not have lots of brainless curb-stomps in the first place. Not every fight needs to be super complex or difficult, and an occasional absolute beat down is fun, because varying combat difficulty and setting are part of good encounter design. Unfortunately a lot of RPGs seem to never get much beyond a room with a couple orcs or whatever and some forgettable loot for most of their fights. Even if the combat is good, I find that really wears out its welcome pretty quickly.


Well, yes, but most RTWP games are built around rules systems that allow for truly astonishing levels of variability in both the party's overall power and their resource attrition rate, which means that sometimes a group will be able to cruise through intermittent battles, and other times not. Now, this isn't great design either, but it does mitigate the grind it out nature of fully turn-based games that also allow this to happen to a degree.

----------


## Zombimode

> * I've observed that nobody really _likes_ RTWP. People either have no strong opinion on it or dislike it.


I generally prefer turn-based combat in party rpgs, but I like RTWP in Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale.
Not all RTWP systems are created equal. PoE for instance shows a disturbing lack of understanding of why RTWP did work quite well in the Infinity Engine games.




> What realtime game even is there that you can't pause? Even in sports you can call a time out.


Regretably most RTS games don't allow for a "tactical" pause where you still can move the camera and give orders. Many even lock the camera in space or even block everyting with a "pause menu" screen.
And I don't really undestand why. A tactical pause feature would only be relevant to single player anyway and its up to the player to use it.

----------


## Eldan

Yeah, that. I like thinking about what I'm doing. Also, I'm slow. I love any strategy game that allows me to pause while I give orders.

----------


## Batcathat

> I outright refuse to buy any rpg that uses a realtime with pause system. 
> 
> Realtime with pause is a fake system anyway. Realtime with pause as opposed to what? What realtime game even is there that you can't pause? Even in sports you can call a time out.


If that's the case, how do you even know what games you refuse to buy? Clearly, there is a difference between "this game has a pause function" and "this game is designed for real-time with pause".

Personally, I kinda like RTWP. It has its flaws and it can be implemented badly, but so can any of the alternatives.

----------


## Wookieetank

> Merchants, I find, are either prohibitively expensive or bloody useless. I would love to have 2500 in goods to afford some new seeds... but why can't my gatherers find Walnuts or Chestnuts enough to form a new orchard?


I've found firewood of all things makes for good trading materials (and having a secret stockpile for winter is nice too).  Completely agree on the gatherers.

Solved my surplus food situation last night.  Over grew my population, went into a starvation spiral, and ended up with about 1/3 of my population left.  There's quite the collection of graveyards around town now from all the Fun.

Had to close the schools and boot all my students into food production to stop the spiral, but things seem settled now.  Had a fire breakout in my town center, which burned down an impressive 29 buildings (25 houses, 1 market, 2 blacksmiths, and a tailor), but no casualties, so win?

Also had a nomad group of 89 stop by, which I decided to absorb, only to find out that only 30 of them were adults *facepalm*.  Threw all those adults into food production as well, and managed to skate by 2 full years now after that.

Had to call it quits there, but I'm intrigued to see how far I can get on rebuilding before a new disaster strikes.

----------


## Bohandas

> If that's the case, how do you even know what games you refuse to buy?


I blocked the tag on steam

----------


## Batcathat

> I blocked the tag on steam


Fair enough, but my second point remains: that there's a difference between a game that has a pause function and one that's designed around using it (for example, a RTWP game allows for issuing commands while paused, which most games where pausing is just for when you don't want to play doesn't allow).

----------


## Spore

> I generally prefer turn-based combat in party rpgs, but I like RTWP in Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale.
> Not all RTWP systems are created equal. PoE for instance shows a disturbing lack of understanding of why RTWP did work quite well in the Infinity Engine games.


Weren't the Infinity games and its rule sets handcrafted to fit the gameplay style? I recall reading about how AD&D was nothing like Baldur's Gate's rules, and they just loosely took inspiration from classes and mechanics. Because it didn't work.

Similarly with Pathfinder games: RTWP works with a low of classes, but there are some classes that are just too micro intensive. A player on a real table would say they use Shocking Grasp in Spell Combat on their melee attack. So far so good. It works just like two weapon fighting, not very difficult.

But in RTWP you have to get into melee, select the spell from the spell book, pray the character understands this is spell combat (so they attack in melee instead of hard casting the shocking grasp) and you do that for every of your 15ish spell slots for your daily encounter. And you fight A LOT in these games. Or you can simply have an Oracle, click 5 buffs before combat and then right click your enemies to death.

One is easier done than the other.

----------


## Bohandas

> Fair enough, but my second point remains: that there's a difference between a game that has a pause function and one that's designed around using it (for example, a RTWP game allows for issuing commands while paused, which most games where pausing is just for when you don't want to play doesn't allow).


The "real-time with pause tag" generally indicates a realtime game that should _not_ be realtime and would work better in a turn-based format. And it is this, rather than anything about their pausability, that distinguishes them most strongly and consistently from other realtime games. There are some exceptions of course; _Planescape Torment_  should have either been an adventure game like _Monkey Island_ or it should have been a visual novel




> Similarly with Pathfinder games: RTWP works with a low of classes, but there are some classes that are just too micro intensive. A player on a real table would say they use Shocking Grasp in Spell Combat on their melee attack. So far so good. It works just like two weapon fighting, not very difficult.
> 
> But in RTWP you have to get into melee, select the spell from the spell book, pray the character understands this is spell combat (so they attack in melee instead of hard casting the shocking grasp) and you do that for every of your 15ish spell slots for your daily encounter. And you fight A LOT in these games. Or you can simply have an Oracle, click 5 buffs before combat and then right click your enemies to death.
> 
> One is easier done than the other.


Yeah, basically this. RTWP basically precludes the use of anything other than a one-trick melee fighters who just make basic attacks until the enemy is dead. Anything that dealing with more than one kind of attack, or spells or area effects or any sort of complex maneuvering basically can't be done.

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## Sermil

Personally, I love _Sins of a Solar Empire_, which is realtime with pause -- specifically, an RTS where you can still issue orders while the game is paused. Honestly, it's the only RTS I play. I can't keep up with an RTS that doesn't allow that. I certainly couldn't play _Sins_ in multiplayer.

If you want to be technical about it, combat in _FTL_ is realtime-with-pause as well.

If it's done right, RTWP games can be great.

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## Zombimode

> Weren't the Infinity games and its rule sets handcrafted to fit the gameplay style? I recall reading about how AD&D was nothing like Baldur's Gate's rules, and they just loosely took inspiration from classes and mechanics. Because it didn't work.


Hm, broadly speaking this characterisation of the relationship between Baldurs Gate and the AD&D rules is incorrect.

First, stats and character building rules are pretty closely modeled. Some attribute effects are not coded in, but these are minor effects (like save bonus vs some stuff for high Wisdom, Immunity to low level illusions for extreme Int scores etc.). All the different multiclass rules are exactly like in AD&D.
Non-weapon Proficiencies are not in the game, but they are an optional part of the rules anyway.

Then, spell effects. Most spells do exactly what their AD&D counterparts do. Others have their effects altered in a way so they make sense for the game's engine (and lack of GM). Most spells work how you would expect the AD&D spell work in the context of the game. Just a small number of spells work notably different. One example would be Slow Poison which actually _cures_ poison in Baldurs Gate.

Third, the underlying combat engine.
While the Infinity Engine is seemingly real-time and durations are really defined in milliseconds, the game still runs on a strict turn structure: every 6 seconds a new turns starts and this governs what creatures and do within that timeframe. This is a major difference to the systems used in later games like Pillars.
Within that 6 second frame, actions happen at certain times. In other words it is a time tick system where at specific ticks actions (like an attack, start of casting, finish of casting) happen. While later D&D editions use a more classic You-Go-I-Go turn system, AD&D's individual initiative system was pretty much what you see in Baldurs Gate. 

Are there differences? Of course.
But is a far closer model of AD&D then a loose inspiration. At least in the things that the game does model.

----------


## Cespenar

Probably unimportant among the pausable CRPG talk, but I've wrapped up something called Sunday Gold, an indie RPG/Adventure which I can only describe as a budget Shadowrun/Disco Elysium child. The theme of the day is 2080s London heist, where the new pastime in the setting is watching cyborg dog races on TV.

Not on the same level as those two titles, obviously, but still, a pretty fun (and funny) little gem.

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## Anonymouswizard

> Probably unimportant among the pausable CRPG talk, but I've wrapped up something called Sunday Gold, an indie RPG/Adventure which I can only describe as a budget Shadowrun/Disco Elysium child. The theme of the day is 2080s London heist, where the new pastime in the setting is watching cyborg dog races on TV.
> 
> Not on the same level as those two titles, obviously, but still, a pretty fun (and funny) little gem.


I'll have to check it out when I'm finished with the Pillars of Eternity games.

On that note, I've cranked the difficulty down as far as it'll go, and now I just want to do two other sidequests before I go towards the endgame. Although as I e of those is 'actually venture into Old Nua' it might take a while.

Honestly the dungeons are by far the worst part of any RPG.  A long slog through enemies to wear you done, but it doesn't actually matter because you can stop for tea and a nap at any time!

----------


## NRSASD

Playing Deep Rock Season 3! Having a great time foaming the suitably disgusting rock pox. As an aside, Deep Rock Galactic is the only game Ive ever played where random players play in character. I had so much fun gripping about poor working conditions and upper management while shooting bugs.

Also playing Crusader Kings. This time, Im trying to stay a vassal the entire game while also being a different religion. Very fun time!

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## warty goblin

I think RTWP works best when you don't actually need to pause all that often. If the best way to play requires pausing every 3 seconds, I'm not really playing a real time game, I'm playing a WEGO turn based system that lacks the guts to commit to that. 

The absolute worst case for RTWP is when the ability to pause gets used as a crutch for bad interface, AI, and general unpleasant fussiness. Neverwinter Nights 2 is a very good example of how not to do this, with the enormous grid of very easily confused tiny-ass spell icons. Honestly Pathinder Wrath of the Righteous isn't a ton better, though you can at least dodge some of that in turn based mode. Of course the turn based interface is also not great, the walking speed is horribly slow in combat, and some genius decided that spacebar should be the speed up animation and the end turn hotkeys.

In other news, I'm back to messing around with Wrath of the Righteous, or as I like to think of it, a character creator that also seems to include a game of some sort. Usually I create a character and hit cancel before actually starting. Occasionally I actually get to the starter dungeon. My all time record is getting to the inn hub.

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## Cozzer

RTWP could be good with combat rules that synergize with it - both in the strategy half and in the time-sensitive half. 
Few commands for each character, easy to understand and at least a couple that are time sensitive (so that, for example, you need to cast a Fire Barrier as soon as you see the boss charging a fire attack). Also, enemies that telephone at least their biggest attack so that you can react to them, and don't need to read the developers' minds or savescum in order to have a relevant defense already up.

So, basically the complete opposite of D&D rules.

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## Erloas

These complaints are a lot of what I didn't like about the Fallout 3+ VATS system. It just felt like a crutch put in place to overcome very poor controls and encounter design. 

I think pause options on RTSs is generally a good thing though, because a strategy game should be based on strategy, rather than memorizing everything and micromanaging every combat.

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## IthilanorStPete

> I think pause options on RTSs is generally a good thing though, because a strategy game should be based on strategy, rather than memorizing everything and micromanaging every combat.


Chiming in on this tangential point: I definitely like that the Paradox grand strategy games are RTWP, real-time makes them flow more smoothly, but you can still pause at any time to plan your actions (and give new orders to your armies).

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## GloatingSwine

> I think pause options on RTSs is generally a good thing though, because a strategy game should be based on strategy, rather than memorizing everything and micromanaging every combat.


The counterpoint is that if the pace of the game is too slow or you use pause too much then you get punished less for a bad strategy because you have much more scope to recover from the errors by pausing and using your now godlike micro ability.

Most RTS games are designed around not being paused to issue orders, even if you *can* it's not the intended mode of play. That's why they tend to have fewer active abilities per unit which are generally easy and immediate to activate, usually on hotkeys.

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## Rodin

The difference between FTL and the more classic RTWP is how often you have to pause, along with how complex the instructions are.

In FTL you'll typically watch the fight go for 30+ seconds.  Simple things like targeting weapons or reassigning a crew member will typically be done in real time because the pace of the game is not high.  Eventually an important event will happen (fire in the engine room!) and you pause briefly to assess your strategy, assign orders, and then go back to real time for another 30+ seconds.  A more routine fight may not have you pause at all.

The RTWP RPGs I've played don't allow that.  If you don't pause every round of combat, you're doing something wrong.  You're not pausing to tell a single unit to do something different while the rest carry on - you're assigning orders to your entire team.  You're pausing every 10 seconds or less and giving complex orders instead of "go here and do what the game contextually tells you."

It quickly becomes either overwhelming (if you don't pause) or incredibly choppy (if you do).  The games are unsuited to the free-flowing rythym of a game that uses the pause feature as a panic button or as a "sometimes" tool used to do something with precision.

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## Bohandas

> Chiming in on this tangential point: I definitely like that the Paradox grand strategy games are RTWP, real-time makes them flow more smoothly, but you can still pause at any time to plan your actions (and give new orders to your armies).


Personally, the only Paradox games I like are the _Warlock_ games

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## Erloas

> The counterpoint is that if the pace of the game is too slow or you use pause too much then you get punished less for a bad strategy because you have much more scope to recover from the errors by pausing and using your now godlike micro ability.
> 
> Most RTS games are designed around not being paused to issue orders, even if you *can* it's not the intended mode of play. That's why they tend to have fewer active abilities per unit which are generally easy and immediate to activate, usually on hotkeys.


Ideally an RTS wouldn't be designed so that micromanaging would be able to grant you god like abilities, especially not a game that you can pause.  Just like a turn based or pausable RPG wouldn't give you unlimited actions just because you've paused it.
In the majority of cases what you're doing is fighting against really poor AI on your own side, troops that wander off to weird places, run off randomly and get themselves killed, stand there and get shot at because someone is just the right distance away, take a really weird route from point A to B, etc.

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## ShneekeyTheLost

> Ideally an RTS wouldn't be designed so that micromanaging would be able to grant you god like abilities, especially not a game that you can pause.  Just like a turn based or pausable RPG wouldn't give you unlimited actions just because you've paused it.


I think most competitive Starcraft 2 players would disagree with that statement as presented. APM is not strictly necessary above a certain minimum bar, but it sure as heck doesn't hurt, especially not when you're trying to keep your macro flowing while also dealing with a micro situation. Although SC2 doesn't have a pause button, so there's that. 





> In the majority of cases what you're doing is fighting against really poor AI on your own side, troops that wander off to weird places, run off randomly and get themselves killed, stand there and get shot at because someone is just the right distance away, take a really weird route from point A to B, etc.


That's a criticism of the AI, not the ability to pause to fix the problem. It's a legitimate gripe about many games in the genre, but it's not a problem inherent in the ability to pause every few seconds, merely a reason why it is necessary in games with bad AI. 

Personally, I feel that if you have to pause the game every time you issue a command, you may as well make it a turn-based game and lean into the strengths that format provides. However, if the majority of the time you can permit time to flow smoothly, but need to pause to deal with crisis moments, that's where it is acceptable to have RTWP. 

As an example, since someone mentioned Paradox, let's use Stellaris as a game I have hundreds of hours enjoying, including weekly multiplayer with my friends where pausing unless something is really critical is a faux pas because it annoys the rest of the players. For the most part, you can keep up with the game. If you have trouble keeping up, you can set the speed to a more moderate pace so you can keep up and still flow smoothly. However, something happens like you suddenly have your neighbor declaring war, or the crisis faction just appeared one system out from a major piece of your infrastructure, or you just *finished* a war and now have to manage all those planets you just took... it's really dang handy to have that pause button available. You can go for over an hour of consistent gameplay without ever touching that pause button once. But when you do need it... hooooo boy do you need it. 

Now, certainly some people might use the pause button as a crutch in Stellaris, and use it far more often than they probably should. And granted, when you're just starting off the game can be a bit overwhelming so you'll be pausing every so often to go 'what the heck was that' until you get the hang of things. But on the whole, the game flows smoothly. Time doesn't pause except for specific events and when you hit the button. If you're managing a colony, time keeps flowing. And this is good, because basically everything relevant from resource generation to research is on a timer, so you don't want that timer pausing unless you absolutely need time to think. Which means the less you use the pause button, the smoother the experience you get and the faster your game progresses. Which sounds intuitively obvious, but let me put it another way: The fastest way to steamroll is to tech up, you tech up by the timer running, therefore to steamroll faster you need to minimize the amount of pausing you do. As opposed to some of the other examples where you need to pause constantly to steamroll. One gives you a pause button but discourages you from using it frequently if you want to finish a game in a reasonable amount of time. The other encourages you to pause frequently to min/max the game because you aren't capable of winning without it. 

Ideally, in my opinion, a game would allow the pause button to be used, but not to rely on it as a crutch for either bad AI coding, bad game design (requiring complex inputs in a real-time scenario unless that was the entire challenge of the game in which case the pause button is intrinsically antithetical), or just poor game performance.

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## Bohandas

> That's a criticism of the AI, not the ability to pause to fix the problem. It's a legitimate gripe about many games in the genre, but it's not a problem inherent in the ability to pause every few seconds, merely a reason why it is necessary in games with bad AI.


In a turn-based game it simply doesn't happen. The worst case scenario for bad pathfinding AI in a turnbased game is that you manually move the character one square at a time to force the path you want them to take

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## ShneekeyTheLost

> In a turn-based game it simply doesn't happen. The worst case scenario for bad pathfinding AI in a turnbased game is that you manually move the character one square at a time to force the path you want them to take


X-COM strongly disagrees with you

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> X-COM strongly disagrees with you


This is the difference between an AP-esque system and a set number of actions system. You totally could do XCOM while allowing square by square movement, but at least the modern version doesn't. Probably to simplify things for inexperienced players.

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## Batcathat

> This is the difference between an AP-esque system and a set number of actions system. You totally could do XCOM while allowing square by square movement, but at least the modern version doesn't. Probably to simplify things for inexperienced players.


While the original X-COM games did allow for this sort of thing, I don't think I ever used it (and I can't imagine a lot of people did) since continuously guiding every character square by square would get very frustrating very fast. So in regards to bad pathfinding, it's a band-aid at best. That said, I did prefer the AP system of the old games to the action one of the new games.

On a completely different note, the discussions in this thread inspired me to start a new game of Pillars of Eternity. Let's see if I actually finish it this time.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I've discovered something with a quest in Pillars of Eternity. I've gone all the way to the final bit of the darn quest and I just don't care enough to finish it.

*Spoiler*
Show

Oh, your lion and bear are refusing to fight because both of you want the home turf advantage? Well they can starve to death for all that matters to me, this is a meaningless dispute about the rules of a meaningless competition. Maybe before the next fight you'll hammer out actual freaking regulations.

Instead I'm taking the simpler bloody path and killing a dragon.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> I've discovered something with a quest in Pillars of Eternity. I've gone all the way to the final bit of the darn quest and I just don't care enough to finish it.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Oh, your lion and bear are refusing to fight because both of you want the home turf advantage? Well they can starve to death for all that matters to me, this is a meaningless dispute about the rules of a meaningless competition. Maybe before the next fight you'll hammer out actual freaking regulations.
> 
> Instead I'm taking the simpler bloody path and killing a dragon.


*Spoiler*
Show

Kill them both, tell Galawain they both sucked.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Kill them both, tell Galawain they both sucked.


*Spoiler*
Show

I just didn't care enough to do that, and the combat had pushed me into 'getting this done as fast as possible' mode.


Anyway, finished Pillars of Eternity and started a little bit of Deadfire. My Watcher's response to the ending of the last game and the five years in between has been to go from mildly religious to being very much anti-god. I've also stayed single class Monk and kept Edér as a single class Fighter, just so I can get used to the new character building and combat systems.

Speaking of which, I'm glad they completely swapped to turn based combat  :Small Wink:  the turn based combat might be slower, but it feels a lot more controllable.

----------


## Taevyr

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I just didn't care enough to do that, and the combat had pushed me into 'getting this done as fast as possible' mode.
> 
> 
> Anyway, finished Pillars of Eternity and started a little bit of Deadfire. My Watcher's response to the ending of the last game and the five years in between has been to go from mildly religious to being very much anti-god. I've also stayed single class Monk and kept Edér as a single class Fighter, just so I can get used to the new character building and combat systems.
> 
> Speaking of which, I'm glad they completely swapped to turn based combat  the turn based combat might be slower, but it feels a lot more controllable.


I stuck to RTwP for Deadfire, but that also was streamlined a _lot_ compared to the first game. Combat flowed far better, but I also tend to prefer how RTwP plays quicker than turn-based: I tried to play WotR on turn-based, and it just felt like a slog. When the turn-based update hit Deadfire, I tried it, but it just didn't feel right.

Can I ask what final choice you made at the end of PoE? My two playthroughs ended with *Spoiler: Spoilers: PoE ending choices*
Show

My ranger making a deal with Galawain and distributing the souls among the Dyrwood, as they seemed the most willing of the factions to be "hands-off" and let kith grow on their own. Ended up giving the Dyrwoodan companions some additional HP in Deadfire, and Galawain aiding in a few big monster fights, which she ironically _hated_ as it removes the challenge.

My Chanter->chanter/fighter did all the god quests in the tribal city, jumped down without making a deal and tying himself to a certain outcome, survived somehow, and ended up going with Wael's later offer to scatter the souls across the unknown beyond: he didn't want to aid possible plots of any of the god factions, found it pretty funny to just remove the souls from the equation, and he honestly took a minor shine to Wael during the few interactions with them.


Anyway, enjoy the Deadfire! It's beautifully designed, very well written (aside from the main quest being a bit bare: factions are the real main quest imo), and a beautiful swashbuckling adventure in which every faction's a different kind of messed up, and not choosing is a valid option that likely solves exactly nothing. I'd even say it beats New Vegas in terms of how well-developed the factions are to create a real grey-and-gray morality.

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## Anonymouswizard

*Spoiler*
Show

I did Hyleh' quest, refused to make a deal, and jumped down. Then at the end I was torn between sending the souls back to the hollowborn and just letting them go back to the Wheel. I ended up picking the latter because it kind of fit with how I had been roleplaying, the number of dead hollowborn means it was probably what would have happened anyway, and I did not want to see what happens when a Wicht got their originally intended soul.

Sending them to parts unknown was tempting, but I don't think it's what my character would have done.


As I get more into Deadfire I find myself getting more and more annoyed at the concept of Avowed. I don't want Pillars of Eternity: The Elder Scrolls, I want more isometric RPGs. I guess Obsidian and Microsoft just think that first person will sell more.

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## Rynjin

I'll certainly buy and play it, where I have zero interest in PoE.

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## ShneekeyTheLost

> As I get more into Deadfire I find myself getting more and more annoyed at the concept of Avowed. I don't want Pillars of Eternity: The Elder Scrolls, I want more isometric RPGs. I guess Obsidian and Microsoft just think that first person will sell more.


I've been complaining about this since the N64 launched, to no avail.

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## Lord Raziere

> As I get more into Deadfire I find myself getting more and more annoyed at the concept of Avowed. I don't want Pillars of Eternity: The Elder Scrolls, I want more isometric RPGs. I guess Obsidian and Microsoft just think that first person will sell more.


I've tried to play isometric! I just don't like it as much as first person! let people have different genres. you have a lot of isometric stuff on steam now, while I'm feeling starved for content, apparently they take eons just to make one Elder Scrolls-like.

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## Anonymouswizard

> I'll certainly buy and play it, where I have zero interest in PoE.


Which is the risk they're running. Will they attract enough Rynjins to make up for the lack of Anonymouswizards?




> I've been complaining about this since the N64 launched, to no avail.


To be fair, massive RPGs are one of the genres where I kind of get the trend chasing. They're a lot of work.




> I've tried to play isometric! I just don't like it as much as first person! let people have different genres. you have a lot of isometric stuff on steam now, while I'm feeling starved for content, apparently they take eons just to make one Elder Scrolls-like.


This is where we get into indie Vs AAA stuff, and how isometric is going to trend towards the former but first person towards the latter. But honestly, it also takes a ton of work to make a game like Pillars of Eternity or Baldur's Gate 3. But it was intended more as a statement of personal opinion, 'Deadfire is the kind of game I love, I wish the developers hadn't abandoned it to appeal to a different crowd'.

It also sucks because Pillars of Eternity 2 is amazing, as is Tyranny. They're both the kind of mature fantasy that Dragon Age wants to be, they play very well, and the writing is just enjoyable. But I suppose we're out of that nostalgia cycle and into the one for Morrowind and Oblivion.

Plus like, I'm sure TES6 would have been out half a decade ago if it wasn't for the MMO taking up resources. But I have many reasons I dislike the series, including that it tells me to do what I want and I quickly get bored of the lack of solid structure under me. Most people head off in the opposite direction to the main quest, I try to head towards it

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## Mr.Silver

> As I get more into Deadfire I find myself getting more and more annoyed at the concept of Avowed. I don't want Pillars of Eternity: The Elder Scrolls, I want more isometric RPGs. I guess Obsidian and Microsoft just think that first person will sell more.


Yeah, from what I've heard it's that _Deadfire_ underperformed in terms of sales while _The Outer Worlds_ didn't, so that's pretty much where the funding is now. It's a shame, although to be fair, you can't really say 'under a decade of isometric RPGs then pivoting towards increasingly action-focussed games' _isn't_ kind of accurate to the Infinity Engine days  :Small Tongue:

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## Rynjin

> Which is the risk they're running. Will they attract enough Rynjins to make up for the lack of Anonymouswizards?


I don't think it's a risk, because the answer is almost assuredly yes. No offense, but isometric RPGs have always been a niche genre, it's why they died out the first time.

Reliable digital distribution is gonna give them more longevity this time around, but they're never going to become a dominant genre on the market.

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## GloatingSwine

> Yeah, from what I've heard it's that _Deadfire_ underperformed in terms of sales while _The Outer Worlds_ didn't, so that's pretty much where the funding is now. It's a shame, although to be fair, you can't really say 'under a decade of isometric RPGs then pivoting towards increasingly action-focussed games' _isn't_ kind of accurate to the Infinity Engine days


Deadfire had a really good crowdfunding campaign, which meant that almost everyone who would have bought it at launch already had it.

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## Taevyr

Aside from it simply being the safer business choice (obviously, just look at Outer Worlds), Avowed is also the result of Deadfire's lack of sales, which can (disputably) be attributed to a few things:

- Compared to PoE1's, it actually didn't have that good of a crowdfunding campaign. The switch to Fig over Kickstarter for crowdfunding, which was kind of dubious to begin with due to Obsidian's CEO being involved indirectly with Fig's creation, also made the campaign less visible for people outside of the Obsidian Forum: I didn't even find out a sequel was being made until the campaign was almost over. PoE1 was pretty high among kickstarter campaigns for a while, while Fig did notably worse despite (theoretically) having said existent fanbase to draw from. 

- Additionally, the main fanbase bought it by way of the kickstarter, and lacking marketing (which mostly depicted it as "generic pirate rpg") meant there were few new sales. It's comparable to Tyranny in that it's become a bit of a sleeper success with sales over time, but that's generally not what you want out of a game.

But even taking that into account: besides Original Sin's lightning in a bottle, isometrics are rather niche. I love them, I love obsidians work in general, but even I can see why microsoft wouldn't want them to take too big a risk. It's just unfortunate 'cause Tyranny and Deadfire are two of my favourite games out there.

OTOH, they're also the creators of New Vegas and Alpha Protocol, so I don't doubt their credentials when it comes to creating first-person rpg's. Maybe a bit when it comes to creating ones that aren't ridiculously buggy at launch  :Small Tongue: 

EDIT: I also just remembered that Josh Sawyer at one point made a post/video about why Deadfire failed to be the commercial success that was expected: one point I recall was the ship combat minigame being a far bigger money-sink than they ever expected and kind of a mistake in hindsight. There were a few small things like that if I remember correctly, that essentially combined into a pretty big money hole.

EDIT 2: think it might be this video, listened to it a long time ago and it was interesting but I _really_ have no time for a rewatch/listen atm

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## warty goblin

It's also probably easier to sell Nostalgia Bait: The Game than it is Nostalgia Bait: The Game: The Sequel. That's not an infinitely deep well, and there's gonna be a lot of irritating stuff about isometric CRPGs that people forgot, got hyped for the return, and then remembered very, very quickly upon contact with Pillars 1. Stuff like the entire game being either talking to people (i.e. reading pages and pages of dialog) and walking into a 20x30 room, killing four dudes, then walking into a 50x80 room and killing eight dudes, and repeat until you need to read some more stuff. Particularly since the isometric RPG market wasn't super crowded when Pillars 1 launched, but it was by Pillars 2, and the competition had _really_ upped the bar. And the bar has continued to raise since then.

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## ShneekeyTheLost

> I don't think it's a risk, because the answer is almost assuredly yes. No offense, but isometric RPGs have always been a niche genre, it's why they died out the first time.
> 
> Reliable digital distribution is gonna give them more longevity this time around, but they're never going to become a dominant genre on the market.


Isometric RPG's a niche genre? Pardon, have you ever heard of a 'niche' game called Final Fantasy? Or the first six iterations of it? Hell, despite using 3d models, FF7 generally either used isometric or fixed camera angles, and I seem to recall that one sold decently. Does Legend of Zelda ring any bells? Literally every single RPG prior to the release of the N64/PS1? 

Agree or disagree with your original statement about it being a risk or not, labeling isometric RPG's 'niche' is simply untrue.

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## Rynjin

> Isometric RPG's a niche genre? Pardon, have you ever heard of a 'niche' game called Final Fantasy? Or the first six iterations of it? Hell, despite using 3d models, FF7 generally either used isometric or fixed camera angles, and I seem to recall that one sold decently. Does Legend of Zelda ring any bells? Literally every single RPG prior to the release of the N64/PS1? 
> 
> Agree or disagree with your original statement about it being a risk or not, labeling isometric RPG's 'niche' is simply untrue.


Nobody in the history of this Earth has ever referred to Final Fantasy as an isometric RPG.

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## warty goblin

> Isometric RPG's a niche genre? Pardon, have you ever heard of a 'niche' game called Final Fantasy? Or the first six iterations of it? Hell, despite using 3d models, FF7 generally either used isometric or fixed camera angles, and I seem to recall that one sold decently. Does Legend of Zelda ring any bells? Literally every single RPG prior to the release of the N64/PS1? 
> 
> Agree or disagree with your original statement about it being a risk or not, labeling isometric RPG's 'niche' is simply untrue.


The PS1 came out in 1995, 27 years ago. Whatever was true before it is extremely not relevant to the games market in 2022. Or even 2015, when Pillars 1 came out.

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## Zevox

> Nobody in the history of this Earth has ever referred to Final Fantasy as an isometric RPG.


Aye, top-down viewpoint and isometric are not the same thing. The only Final Fantasies that would count as isometric are the Tactics games.

Also, The Legend of Zelda is neither isometric nor an RPG, so doubly wrong there. It's an Action-Adventure series.

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## Taevyr

> Isometric RPG's a niche genre? Pardon, have you ever heard of a 'niche' game called Final Fantasy?





> Nobody in the history of this Earth has ever referred to Final Fantasy as an isometric RPG.


While I agree that it's ludicrous to refer to FF as such, I'm more surprised that we apparently have at least 1 alien on this forum  :Small Tongue:

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## Erloas

Isometric view is not a genre, the same way that first person isn't a genre.  There was a long time when almost the only first person games were shooters, and there were a lot of RPGs that were isometric, but in neither case was the view the definition of the genre.  The early FF games were clearly isometric views, but you wouldn't group them with X-COM, and neither would be grouped with Diablo.    
I would also say that what most people that think of when they think "isometric games" never went away, they just started varying a lot more in looks, and they just went from being very prevalent to developers having a lot more good options to build a game around.  Many of your 3rd person games still have a lot of those designs around them, even if the technology used to make them has changed drastically.

The early Zelda games were somewhat before Isometric was possible, and then later went to 3rd person full 3D, but they hit Isometric too.



> In an interview about the evolution of the Zelda series, Aonuma called Link's Awakening the "quintessential isometric Zelda game"


A quick search on isometric games and the list I found of the "best" ranged from Fallout 2, Civilization 6, Disco Elysium, POE II, Hades, and Divinity: OS2. Among others, but gameplay wise there is almost nothing those games have in common besides the view point they use.

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## Rynjin

> Isometric view is not a genre, the same way that first person isn't a genre.  There was a long time when almost the only first person games were shooters, and there were a lot of RPGs that were isometric, but in neither case was the view the definition of the genre.  The early FF games were clearly isometric views, but you wouldn't group them with X-COM, and neither would be grouped with Diablo.    
> I would also say that what most people that think of when they think "isometric games" never went away, they just started varying a lot more in looks, and they just went from being very prevalent to developers having a lot more good options to build a game around.  Many of your 3rd person games still have a lot of those designs around them, even if the technology used to make them has changed drastically.
> 
> The early Zelda games were somewhat before Isometric was possible, and then later went to 3rd person full 3D, but they hit Isometric too.
> 
> 
> A quick search on isometric games and the list I found of the "best" ranged from Fallout 2, Civilization 6, Disco Elysium, POE II, Hades, and Divinity: OS2. Among others, but gameplay wise there is almost nothing those games have in common besides the view point they use.


Nobody said "isometric view" was a genre, but "isometric RPG" is, just like "first person shooter" is.

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## Zevox

> Isometric view is not a genre, the same way that first person isn't a genre.  There was a long time when almost the only first person games were shooters, and there were a lot of RPGs that were isometric, but in neither case was the view the definition of the genre.  The early FF games were clearly isometric views, but you wouldn't group them with X-COM, and neither would be grouped with Diablo.    
> I would also say that what most people that think of when they think "isometric games" never went away, they just started varying a lot more in looks, and they just went from being very prevalent to developers having a lot more good options to build a game around.  Many of your 3rd person games still have a lot of those designs around them, even if the technology used to make them has changed drastically.
> 
> The early Zelda games were somewhat before Isometric was possible, and then later went to 3rd person full 3D, but they hit Isometric too.
> 
> 
> A quick search on isometric games and the list I found of the "best" ranged from Fallout 2, Civilization 6, Disco Elysium, POE II, Hades, and Divinity: OS2. Among others, but gameplay wise there is almost nothing those games have in common besides the view point they use.


 :Small Confused:  I have no idea under what possible definition of "isometric" any non-Tactics Final Fantasy games or any Legend of Zelda games would count. Isometric games essentially use 2D visuals turned at an angle to simulate 3D visuals. The fights in Final Fantasy Tactics and its Advance spin-off/sequels did that, but no mainline games did that I'm aware of, and certainly Legend of Zelda never did. I've played Link's Awakening, it's the same sort of top-down 2D Zelda as every other 2D Zelda.

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## Erloas

Final Fantasy is unquestionable an RPG, and several of the games were isometric, including 7.  It didn't always stay in that view, but a lot of it was. In fact there are even fan made mods to change the new remake into the classic isometric view.  Granted that the FF games switched to a turn based combat system that used no movement at all and a different view, but the majority of the game world was explored in an isometric view.

I always considered the original Zelda games to be RPGs, or action/RPGs, but I could accept if they were just considered action-adventure, the line between action-adventure and action-RPG has often been very thin at times.  But you can't even start to argue that the original Zelda games weren't isometric in their view/design.  I'll pull a bigger piece of the quote from the director of the games




> In 1991, we released the Super Nintendo Entertainment System and followed that a year later with The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past on that system. With this title the Zelda series once again returned to the* top down, isometric view*. But, it can probably be said if it were not for this title, the Zelda franchise would never have been developed. It established many of the conventions for Zelda games to come, including those that were refined in The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening released for the Game Boy the following year. Even now, _Link's Awakening is lauded as a quintessential isometric Zelda game_.




Not that wikipedia is definitive guide (but considering all of this is at best subjective, it's about as authoritative as anything can be)



> This formula was refined by the action-adventure game, The Legend of Zelda (1986), which set the template used by many subsequent action RPGs... The game was largely responsible for the surge of action-oriented RPGs released since the late 1980s, both in Japan and North America. The Legend of Zelda series would continue to exert an influence on the transition of both console and computer RPGs from stat-heavy, turn-based combat towards real-time action combat in the following decades


There are also plenty of modern, fully 3D games, that still use the isometric view, many of which are RPGs.  You can easily say that they aren't as dominate as they used to be, but I think you would be hard pressed to find many years in the last 30 where isometric RPGs of one sort or another didn't have big releases.  You can find a dozen Diablo-likes just in the last 5 years, and countless more when Diablo was one of the biggest games around.

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## Zevox

> There are also plenty of modern, fully 3D games, that still use the isometric view,


Okay, setting all else aside at this point, this is the moment where you confirm for me that we are talking about different things. Because from my understanding of it, by definition, if a game is fully 3D, it is not isometric. As I mentioned previously, what I'm talking about with the term, summed up in simple terms, is games that use 2D visuals set at an angle to simulate 3D visuals.

Googling this, I see definitions which appear to match what I'm talking about, albeit getting into more nitty-gritty of the specific angles used to achieve the effect. For instance:



> Isometric video game graphics are graphics employed in video games and pixel art that use a parallel projection, but which angle the viewpoint to reveal facets of the environment that would otherwise not be visible from a top-down perspective or side view, thereby producing a three-dimensional effect. Despite the name, isometric computer graphics are not necessarily truly isometrici.e., the x, y, and z axes are not necessarily oriented 120° to each other. Instead, a variety of angles are used, with dimetric projection and a 2:1 pixel ratio being the most common. The terms "3/4 perspective", "3/4 view", "2.5D", and "pseudo 3D" are also sometimes used, although these terms can bear slightly different meanings in other contexts.


With this in mind, I don't see how games like Final Fantasy 7 or Link's Awakening could ever qualify for the term. They simply don't do that, at all. 

So, going to have to ask: what are you referring to with the term? Because it doesn't seem to be the same thing, if you can make that statement and not see it as an inherent contradiction.




> I always considered the original Zelda games to be RPGs, or action/RPGs, but I could accept if they were just considered action-adventure, the line between action-adventure and action-RPG has often been very thin at times.


And bringing back the aside, I know there's a minority out there that think that way, but I can't understand it in the slightest. I don't see anything I would define as RPG-like in any Legend of Zelda game I've ever played, which is most of them. My only guess has ever been that some people just assign the term to anything with a medieval fantasy setting, it's the only link between them that I can see.

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## Erloas

There have been fully 3d rendered "isometric" games for a very long time. The origins of it was pseudo 3d as mentioned there, but it hasn't been limited to that in probably 20 years.
I also don't think it's doing anyone any favors to use a mathematical technical term to a precision that would exclude the majority of what people that play games understand the term to mean. Since technically anything other than exactly 120x120x120 x\y\z isn't isometric.

I was going to quote from the same isometric wikipedia article but it was going to be too long (and I'm on my phone now), but it even says Fallout 1&2 aren't "true" isometric games, so if you're going to get technical to the point of cutting out 2 of the most quintessential "isometric RPGs" out of the definition then it no longer means anything. It also said there are combinations of 2d and 3d assets that can be used in isometric games.

But if the main producer of Links Awakens, in his own (translated) words says he thinks the game is a quintessential isometric game, there really isn't anything more I can say to convince you.

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## Rynjin

My guy everybody but two people in this thread knows what everybody else means when they say "isometric RPG". I could say "CRPG" if you want but that term for the genre is even MORE meaningless if you want to nitpick, which is as far as I can tell the only point of this tangent.

"Oh yeah Final Fantasy X is a CRPG because it got ported to PC a while back, bro, totally."

Come on.

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## Rodin

Going back to the spirit of the original post (we can nitpick all day over what is or isnt an isometric RPG)

The ironic thing is that the modern isometric RPG became mainstream in the 1990s with the release of Baldurs Gate.  Baldurs Gate was heralded as saving the Western RPG from extinction as Adventure games slid into obscurity.  These days they are niche, but they were extremely popular for a few years.

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## Spore

> The ironic thing is that the modern isometric RPG became mainstream in the 1990s with the release of Baldurs Gate.  Baldurs Gate was heralded as saving the Western RPG from extinction as Adventure games slid into obscurity.  These days they are niche, but they were extremely popular for a few years.


Its attention has honestly split between true turn based strategy (90% of which have an RPG advancement system behind it anyhow) and 3rd person action RPGs ala Dark Souls. The first has the benefit of allowing you to weigh any decision without RTWP slowing down to a crawl (there is a reason people clamored for a turn based mode for Kingmaker, and Wrath of the Righteous is saved by it), the latter has the basic idea of "stupid spammy aggression gets you nowhere, and aside from fakeouts that abuse your naivete, no death in combat is unfair" and cranks up the single player aspect with no handholding.

Iso cRPGs are outliers that cross systems successfully every now and then. But what I have started to enjoy is isometric action RPGs (ala Hades, Diablo 3 and Torchlight), there is much potential to be had.

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## Anonymouswizard

Zelda can't be an isometric RPG, because everything's parallel to the bottom of the screen! While I agree that trying to be 100% accurate to the mathematical term is unnecessary, I don't see a need to include games which don't do t have a defining feature.

P.S. when I express disappointment that a series I like is going to be dropped for a genre I have no particular like of I don't need to be told why I'm wrong. They had many more options than just jumping to first person, including a more NWN/KotOR style.

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## Batcathat

> The first has the benefit of allowing you to weigh any decision without RTWP slowing down to a crawl (there is a reason people clamored for a turn based mode for Kingmaker, and Wrath of the Righteous is saved by it)


Maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but I don't see why turn-based would make things less of a crawl than heavily using RTWP, at worst you're basically using RTWP to mimic a turn-based system (which would admittedly make having it as RTWP unnecessary if it's something that had to be done all the time). While I certainly prefer turn-based in some cases (I suspect X-COM would be nearly unplayable with RTWP) I don't really see the advantage in this case.

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## GloatingSwine

> P.S. when I express disappointment that a series I like is going to be dropped for a genre I have no particular like of I don't need to be told why I'm wrong. They had many more options than just jumping to first person, including a more NWN/KotOR style.


No, I don't think that was an option.

NWN/KotOR have aged much worse as play experiences than Baldur's Gate and nobody is nostalgic for the style of play they represented (even if they are for the story).

They could have made a third person game in the modern style, and for a game with both ranged and melee combat that would probably be better than first person (first person melee combat is always going to be more limiting than third person), but not an Aurora-like.




> Maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but I don't see why turn-based would make things less of a crawl than heavily using RTWP, at worst you're basically using RTWP to mimic a turn-based system (which would admittedly make having it as RTWP unnecessary if it's something that had to be done all the time). While I certainly prefer turn-based in some cases (I suspect X-COM would be nearly unplayable with RTWP) I don't really see the advantage in this case.


The thing with RTWP is that the pausing tends to be staccato as you have to respond to things that happen at varying intervals. Turn based games have a regular rhythm of pause and action, RTWP do not but they're a bit too granular and fiddly (and not well enough supported by hotkeys usually) to just power through with realtime micro unless you maintain an annoyingly high APM intensity which is at odds with the pace of responses.

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## Batcathat

> The thing with RTWP is that the pausing tends to be staccato as you have to respond to things that happen at varying intervals. Turn based games have a regular rhythm of pause and action, RTWP do not but they're a bit too granular and fiddly (and not well enough supported by hotkeys usually) to just power through with realtime micro unless you maintain an annoyingly high APM intensity which is at odds with the pace of responses.


I can see your point, but the flip side of that is that you only have to pause when you need to in RTWP. Yes, if "when you need to" is literally every five seconds, it might as well be turn-based but if it's not, RTWP has the advantage in some situations, I think.

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## GloatingSwine

> I can see your point, but the flip side of that is that you only have to pause when you need to in RTWP. Yes, if "when you need to" is literally every five seconds, it might as well be turn-based but if it's not, RTWP has the advantage in some situations, I think.


Yeah, RTWP offers an advantage when the encounters are easy enough that you don't need to react much to what's going on.  But even then a well designed turn based game that feels responsive to inputs and uses things like animations well can feel dynamic enough that easy encounters don't get old either, see: Persona 5.

It's when things are tricky and you're pausing at _irregular_ intervals because you need to get off a heal or counter something an enemy is trying to do with an interrupt or something like that. It's actually even worse than pausing every 5 seconds, it's pausing at 5 seconds, then 7, then 3, then 12, then you've dealt with the dangerous stuff and don't need to again

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## Anonymouswizard

> No, I don't think that was an option.
> 
> NWN/KotOR have aged much worse as play experiences than Baldur's Gate and nobody is nostalgic for the style of play they represented (even if they are for the story).


I guess I'll just go over here and stop existing so you can be right  :Small Mad: 




> They could have made a third person game in the modern style, and for a game with both ranged and melee combat that would probably be better than first person (first person melee combat is always going to be more limiting than third person), but not an Aurora-like.


By which you mean 'they could have made a third person action game'. Which is true, but when leaving isometric RPGs behind they weren't limited to 'first person action' or 'third person action'.

God, this is almost as annoying as Extra Credits's views on turn based combat.

But hey, I guess the homogenisation of big budget games is a good thing.

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## Mechalich

> Yeah, RTWP offers an advantage when the encounters are easy enough that you don't need to react much to what's going on.  But even then a well designed turn based game that feels responsive to inputs and uses things like animations well can feel dynamic enough that easy encounters don't get old either, see: Persona 5.


Easy encounters get old plenty fast in Persona 5, which hands the player an ability to functionally ignore them from pretty early on. In P5:Royal it's to the point that, once you take an hour or so to over-level properly in the mid game you _only_ actually have to play out the boss fights. Various games in the series that use functionally the same combat system, which hasn't changed significantly since Nocturne and is therefore twenty years old now, can get incredibly sloggy without such an option.

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## GloatingSwine

> By which you mean 'they could have made a third person action game'. Which is true, but when leaving isometric RPGs behind they weren't limited to 'first person action' or 'third person action'.
> 
> God, this is almost as annoying as Extra Credits's views on turn based combat.
> 
> But hey, I guess the homogenisation of big budget games is a good thing.


I suppose they could make an autoattack + hotbars style RPG, but that runs into the same problem as they already had with isometric RPGs which is that they're really not a commercially popular model for singleplayer RPGs. The only title that's really kept that style up outside of the MMO space is Xenoblade (and even then they lean more on action elements with timing skill uses with the autoattack hits).

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## Erloas

I guess I don't agree with the premise that turn based tactical western RPGs are what people mean by "isometric RPGs" and neither does a large part of the Internet from a few quick searches. Especially when Diablo is one of the pillars of the term and it has none of that. 
But anyway...


I think that Kickstarter helped prove that turn based western RPGs, which do have a distinctly different feel to turn based RPGs out Japan, still has a pretty strong fan base. Sure they don't have COD or Fortnite numbers, but a lot of people play them and still get good reviews.
I would say that Wasteland 3, Battletech (the Hairbrained Schemes one), and Shadowrun all fall into the category. Even if Battletech isn't an RPG, it has pretty much everything else being discussed.
It's always seemed like "people in charge" just said "these sorts of games won't sell now" and stopped funding them, rather than people not wanting to play them. I think a lot of it came from the companies making them often went out of business in the late 90s, but that almost always came down to "programmers running a company" sort of issues and less "the games weren't good enough to sell."

I think the biggest factor in TB versus RTWP comes down to party size, with the complexity of character options being a modifying factor. If you've got more than about 3 characters and they can do more than basic attacks, and aren't expected to die constantly, then turn based is the way to go.
I think that pausing in what would otherwise be a FPS just breaks up the game.
There are of course exceptions everywhere, the game needs to be tuned around the choice, and games that just throw one or the other option on always come down to one being the far better choice.

----------


## Zombimode

> God, this is almost as annoying as Extra Credits's views on turn based combat.


Never understood why Extra Credits got the tracktion it got. Their knowledge of games seems to come from compiling game magazine articles (like IGN) and their views on what is and what isn't good game design likewise seems to come from reading about game design without a long personal history of actually _playing_ games.


On topic (skipping the "Whats a paladin rpg" and rpg style discussions :smallamused: ):

During a deep dive through GoG strategy catalogue, I stumbled upon *Mission Force: Cyberstorm*
What the title refers to is a bit unclear (especially the "Cyberstorm" part), but whatever ;-)

It an (old) turn-based strategy game featuring mechs. The scale is one to several "lances": I started the game with 3 mechs, and for the final mission my loadout was about 13-15 combat mechs and 3 unarmed scout mechs.
The mechs (called "HERCs") are in the style of Battletech mechs. Which is not surprising since the game was made by the same studio that was involved in some of the older Battletech games. They lost the license but obviously wanted to continue to make battletech-style games. Which resulted in a game universe (called Metaltech - yes, really) that would eventually lead to the *Tribes* multiplayer shooters. No kidding.

Anyway, back to Mission Force.
The setting has nothing to do with Battletech. Instead to get an idea about the aesthetics and tone of the setting, picture the future flashback scenes from Terminator 2: Judgement Day. Add mechs.
The main antagonists of the settings is a class of artifical beings called "Cybrids", men-made cybernetic creatures who rebelled against humankind and both groups have fought several genocidal wars.
During the time of Mission Force, humans and Cybrids took to the stars and war inevitably breaks out anew.

For the humans, a megacorporation called Unitech has essentially took over all functions of state. The worth of a human life is measured in success.
The HERCs are no longer piloted by humans. Instead vat-grown bioengineered beings called Bioderms take the role of the HERC-pilots. Bioderms, or 'derms for short, are rather unstable and have life expectency of 1 to 10 years (for the most sophisticated models). 'derms are not considered beings, but commodities and tools. Although the game's narrative makes it pretty clear that 'derms are actually indistinguishable from humans in terms of personality and emotions :smallamused:
The low life expectancy is actually relevant in game. My own run took 7-8 years in game. While I had not to worry about my high-class bioderm models, several of my lower class models died of "old age" during the campaign.

The gameplay is pretty good. The game offers a good ammount of depth often comming from simple interaction. As such the game feels very aproachable (if you can deal with old games, that is).
A good example is the importance of terrain. This comes down to two things:
1. The ammount of energy it costs to move into the respective hex. The differences are quite drastic.
2. The cover the terrain provides. Cover is not some artifical "gamey" state, but a direct consequence of the topology. If one mech can only see 27% of the target mech, the to-hit chances are recuded accordingly.

It is not the most complex mech simulation, but the game is also not overly long. It took me about 30 hours to beat the camaign.

Speaking of the campaign: it consist of (random?) missions spanning three star systems. The star systems are the chapters of the game. Your goal is to destroy the Cybrid main base in each of the star systems. The epic siege mission for each of the Cybrids bases is available from the start so in theory you only have to beat three missions. This is practically impossible of course, and you have to "farm" Ressource Gathering missions for money and Military Missions for promotions. Military missions still pay money (but less) and Ressource missions still count towards your progress for promotion (but slower). All missions can be completed by destroying/driving off all enemy forces. The missions themselves have no other consequences. Hence my term "farming".
The lack of connection between the missions is my biggest gripe with the game.

On the plus side, at the point when the missions felt like "farming", they where also completed in quickly manner. A ressource mission (which I completely switched over to very early in the second star system) could be completed in 2-5 minutes. The big time-sinks are the big siege missions (each taking several hours) and the early game.


Then, I switched over to *C&C: Red Alert 3* which turned out to be a pleasant suprise.
While it does deviate in several aspects from earlier C&C titles which took some time to adjust to* and it continues Red Alerts style of non-serious camp (in contrast to the Tiberium game's serious camp) which I don't particular care for, the game succeeds in the mission design.

* Most tanks are pretty useless, including the sovjet Mammoth Apocalypse Tank.

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## Cespenar

> Never understood why Extra Credits got the tracktion it got. Their knowledge of games seems to come from compiling game magazine articles (like IGN) and their views on what is and what isn't good game design likewise seems to come from reading about game design without a long personal history of actually _playing_ games.


Extra Credits had a lot of biased and/or dogmatic game design takes, but even they are better than the 99% of "game design analysis" videos on Youtube right now, which consist of "I grew up playing X, so let me speak 45 minutes about it while overusing the word 'GENIUS'".

Anyway, to shake off any excess salt: I also wrapped up Ozymandias, which I must also recommend again to any 4x or strategy lovers -- it basically does to 4x what Into the Breach did to the tactics genre. Minimalistic but with optimized depth of strategy.

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## Zevox

> There have been fully 3d rendered "isometric" games for a very long time. The origins of it was pseudo 3d as mentioned there, but it hasn't been limited to that in probably 20 years.
> I also don't think it's doing anyone any favors to use a mathematical technical term to a precision that would exclude the majority of what people that play games understand the term to mean. Since technically anything other than exactly 120x120x120 x\y\z isn't isometric.
> 
> I was going to quote from the same isometric wikipedia article but it was going to be too long (and I'm on my phone now), but it even says Fallout 1&2 aren't "true" isometric games, so if you're going to get technical to the point of cutting out 2 of the most quintessential "isometric RPGs" out of the definition then it no longer means anything. It also said there are combinations of 2d and 3d assets that can be used in isometric games.
> 
> But if the main producer of Links Awakens, in his own (translated) words says he thinks the game is a quintessential isometric game, there really isn't anything more I can say to convince you.


I mean, if you're not going to even try to explain what you are referring to when you use the term, there's not much more discussion to be had. I'm honestly trying to figure out what the disconnect is here, because your remarks are baffling to me. When I hear the term, I think of it as referring to a fairly specific thing, which I've tried to describe to the best of my ability, and when I google it, I see definitions that seem to match my understanding and screenshots of games that look like I expect them to. None of which appears to me to apply to games like The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening. Not sure what else you expect out of a discussion at that point.

For what it's worth, looking up screenshots of Fallout 1 & 2 (which I've never played), sure, those look like they're isometric to me. And for point of reference, in case it helps, the classic example that comes to my mind when I hear the word is Sonic 3D Blast, which was the first such game I ever played. Not an RPG, but definitely isometric.

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## Anonymouswizard

> Extra Credits had a lot of biased and/or dogmatic game design takes, but even they are better than the 99% of "game design analysis" videos on Youtube right now, which consist of "I grew up playing X, so let me speak 45 minutes about it while overusing the word 'GENIUS'".


You mean I shouldn't write a two hour video on what Inquisition is missing compared to the earlier Dragon Age games? Because I've vaguely been considering doing something along those lines (focusing on the relative lack of main plot and the stripped down combat system).

And yeah, Extra Credits mainly have rep because James was good at giving actual, if opinionated, information. Since he left it kind of went downhill until it got eclipsed by the history side topics. Plus the less said about their expressed views on monetisation in full priced games the better.

----------


## The Glyphstone

> Then, I switched over to *C&C: Red Alert 3* which turned out to be a pleasant suprise.
> While it does deviate in several aspects from earlier C&C titles which took some time to adjust to* and it continues Red Alerts style of non-serious camp (in contrast to the Tiberium game's serious camp) which I don't particular care for, the game succeeds in the mission design.
> 
> * Most tanks are pretty useless, including the sovjet Mammoth Apocalypse Tank.


I wasn't a huge fan of RA3 myself, between how every mission was now Co-Op which made it very clear Singleplayer was an afterthought, and the camp which went too excessive for my tastes. RA1 had serious camp, RA2/YR I felt hit the sweet spot of camp without tipping over into ridiculous. Tim Curry is a hoot though, even if George Takei's talent was completely wasted and the less said about Jenny McCarthy's Tanya the better.

This is also relevant because I'm plowing through the _Mental Omega_ fan mod for RA2, subtitled 'Almost Perfect Yuris Revenge'. Has a massively expanded unit list, and completely rewrites the campaign into a giant sprawling 100+ mission story spanning both the RA2 and YR timeliness and all 3 factions, including a full Yuri campaign. Sadly they couldn't match the FMV briefing segments or voiceovers though, but the mission design is hugely improved with far more variety.

----------


## Cespenar

> You mean I shouldn't write a two hour video on what Inquisition is missing compared to the earlier Dragon Age games? Because I've vaguely been considering doing something along those lines (focusing on the relative lack of main plot and the stripped down combat system).


I mean, at least trim it down to a crisp 45:00.  :Small Tongue:

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## Thomas Cardew

> I wasn't a huge fan of RA3 myself, between how every mission was now Co-Op which made it very clear Singleplayer was an afterthought, and the camp which went too excessive for my tastes. RA1 had serious camp, RA2/YR I felt hit the sweet spot of camp without tipping over into ridiculous. Tim Curry is a hoot though, even if George Takei's talent was completely wasted and the less said about Jenny McCarthy's Tanya the better.
> 
> This is also relevant because I'm plowing through the _Mental Omega_ fan mod for RA2, subtitled 'Almost Perfect Yuris Revenge'. Has a massively expanded unit list, and completely rewrites the campaign into a giant sprawling 100+ mission story spanning both the RA2 and YR timeliness and all 3 factions, including a full Yuri campaign. Sadly they couldn't match the FMV briefing segments or voiceovers though, but the mission design is hugely improved with far more variety.


It's been awhile but wasn't RA3 WAY more micro-intensive than RA1? I seem to remember *every single unit* had an active ability or toggle switch you had to constantly micro with few QoL adjustments.

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## warty goblin

> It's been awhile but wasn't RA3 WAY more micro-intensive than RA1? I seem to remember *every single unit* had an active ability or toggle switch you had to constantly micro with few QoL adjustments.



That was a big thing in RTSs for a while, giving every unit some button to press to do a thing. I recall Star Wars: Empire at War was particularly egregious because they then went and made the button absurdly tiny.

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## The Glyphstone

> It's been awhile but wasn't RA3 WAY more micro-intensive than RA1? I seem to remember *every single unit* had an active ability or toggle switch you had to constantly micro with few QoL adjustments.


I had blocked that from my memory but yes. Right down to the attack dogs who could bark loud enough to stun people.

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## Zombimode

> It's been awhile but wasn't RA3 WAY more micro-intensive than RA1? I seem to remember *every single unit* had an active ability or toggle switch you had to constantly micro with few QoL adjustments.


Yeah, thats true. Thankfully for each mission there are ways to victory that doesn't rely on _that_ level of micro.
Massed Twinblades, Rocket Angles, King Onis with Tidal Wave Artillery, Aircraft Carrier, Mirage Tanks, Bombers...

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## MCerberus

That would be too much for me. I already had enough problems actually doing anything else while using the AC130 from Zero hour.

If you're unfamiliar, in that game it was a ground-support jet that had acquired additional dakka. You summoned it on an area and selected a ground attack zone to make sure was extra dead, which you could move around. And you couldn't assign a quick group to it, so ordering a rush through your doom zone was near impossible unless you wanted to have the AC130 shooting a particularly nasty empty piece of terrain for a while.

So eventually I just stopped getting it, and instead started speccing into the Mother of All Bombs drop. Which also accomplishes the objective of deadifying an area.

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## Anonymouswizard

> I mean, at least trim it down to a crisp 45:00.


When it comes off the pile of project ideas it might end up at 30-60 minutes  :Small Wink:  But I want it to be more than 'Inquisition sucks until the main game is ovet', so I'm waiting. Maybe I'll try after Dreadwolf is out.

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## warty goblin

Speaking of micro in RTS games, I've been playing Warpips, an RTS with basically no micro. It does this quite cleverly; your base is on the left side of the map, the enemy's is on the right. You build dudes, they march right, the enemy's dudes march left. Dudes kill each other, you push them back and blow up the enemy base. But you do not control the dudes, they just do their thing. You earn money over time, which you spend on units. You also earn levels, which can be spent upgrading units, exchanged for large amounts of cash, or spend on upgrading your population cap. There's also a defense button and an attack button; holding down defense will make your dudes find cover, hold ground, and shoot at longer range. Holding down the attack button makes them move faster and shoot more rapidly. Both of these are filled by fighting, and holding either one burns charge from both.

There's some slightly more hands-on stuff, like manually controllable turrets or drone strikes, but basically that's it. It's really simple, and it works extremely well. You get desperate defenses and sudden breakthroughs and oh crap moments like in a good standard RTS, but without nearly as much bother with, like, where exactly to put your barracks or who exactly Pvt Bob should be shooting right now.

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## Mark Hall

> Going back to the spirit of the original post (we can nitpick all day over what is or isnt an isometric RPG)
> 
> The ironic thing is that the modern isometric RPG became mainstream in the 1990s with the release of Baldurs Gate.  Baldurs Gate was heralded as saving the Western RPG from extinction as Adventure games slid into obscurity.  These days they are niche, but they were extremely popular for a few years.


Dark Sun: Shattered Lands in '93 some some of that, I think.

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## Bohandas

I mean, isometric may have a technical meanig in art but in games, or at least to gamers, it pretty much just means that the grid squares are sideways and the camera is at a position in-between top-down and side-view. Even if the devs do follow the technical art meaning scrupulously this is all that will be discernable to the player, unless the player also happens to be trained in art or game development.

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## Rodin

> Dark Sun: Shattered Lands in '93 some some of that, I think.


Adventure games were still going strong in 1993.  Quest for Glory IV released that year, with King's Quest VI releasing the previous year.  It was that 5 year gap which led to gaming publications declaring the death of PC RPGs.  That's not to say some games weren't still being released - much like RTS games being "dead" despite periodic new releases what matters is the perception of the fanbase and the overall volume.  

On a separate note...what the heck was up with 1998?  Half-Life released that year and prompted a revolution in FPS games.  Starcraft released that year and shaped competitive RTS games forever.  Baldur's Gate came out that year and basically invented the RTWP isometric RPG genre.  Thief, Resident Evil 2, Xenogears, Ocarina of Time, Mario Party, Unreal, Quake, Fallout 2, Goldeneye, Final Fantasy VII.  And that's just the big names, there's a lot more "really good but niche" games that year.

If that isn't the best year for videogames in history I'm damn curious to know what _was_.

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## GloatingSwine

> If that isn't the best year for videogames in history I'm damn curious to know what _was_.


Some years are just like that. 1998 was one of them. 1994 was another with Doom 2, System Shock, Final Fantasy VI, Sonic 3/Sonic & Knuckles, Master of Magic, Earthbound, and TIE Fighter.

2006 was another strong year as well.

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## zlefin

> Speaking of micro in RTS games, I've been playing Warpips, an RTS with basically no micro. It does this quite cleverly; your base is on the left side of the map, the enemy's is on the right. You build dudes, they march right, the enemy's dudes march left. Dudes kill each other, you push them back and blow up the enemy base. But you do not control the dudes, they just do their thing. You earn money over time, which you spend on units. You also earn levels, which can be spent upgrading units, exchanged for large amounts of cash, or spend on upgrading your population cap. There's also a defense button and an attack button; holding down defense will make your dudes find cover, hold ground, and shoot at longer range. Holding down the attack button makes them move faster and shoot more rapidly. Both of these are filled by fighting, and holding either one burns charge from both.
> 
> There's some slightly more hands-on stuff, like manually controllable turrets or drone strikes, but basically that's it. It's really simple, and it works extremely well. You get desperate defenses and sudden breakthroughs and oh crap moments like in a good standard RTS, but without nearly as much bother with, like, where exactly to put your barracks or who exactly Pvt Bob should be shooting right now.


So someone made one of those into an independent game?  Interesting.  I wonder how often things like that happen.  I've seen dozens of games like that before; or at least a dozen probably.  It's one of the common kinds of custom map designs found in RTS games, not quite as common as TD games, but very up there.  I've played quite a few in both Starcraft 2, and warcraft 3 that used that game plan.  I wouldn't be surprised if there were also some in sc1; I'm just not familiar with them because I never did custom maps in sc1.

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## Zevox

> I mean, isometric may have a technical meanig in art but in games, or at least to gamers, it pretty much just means that the grid squares are sideways and the camera is at a position in-between top-down and side-view. Even if the devs do follow the technical art meaning scrupulously this is all that will be discernable to the player, unless the player also happens to be trained in art or game development.


Right, but that's exactly my point in that discussion. That description doesn't match Final Fantasy (aside from Tactics) or The Legend of Zelda at all. I cited the definition because I wanted to make sure we were using the term the same way, since it came across as if Erloas wasn't using it to refer to that, and the discussion just kind of stopped after that without him ever clarifying.

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## Rodin

> So someone made one of those into an independent game?  Interesting.  I wonder how often things like that happen.  I've seen dozens of games like that before; or at least a dozen probably.  It's one of the common kinds of custom map designs found in RTS games, not quite as common as TD games, but very up there.  I've played quite a few in both Starcraft 2, and warcraft 3 that used that game plan.  I wouldn't be surprised if there were also some in sc1; I'm just not familiar with them because I never did custom maps in sc1.


There absolutely was, the map type was called "Tug-of-War" and was a competing style with the proto-MOBA games that didn't really get going until Warcraft 3 made proper hero units possible.  

Tug-of-War itself was a spinoff of the even older "Blood" style maps which simply spawned in a unit every few seconds.  You chose the unit, then commanded the army yourself.  Victory was points-based after a set time limit.

One of the most interesting Starcraft map ideas was one called "Commandos".  Each player spawned in a set number of Marines at regular intervals, with the number based on the player's score.  Littered around the map were units of varying types which you could purchase using Marines as currency - you gained a powerful unit at the cost of a significant portion of your army, so you had to be careful.

When you consider the primitive tools players were working with, it's amazing what they managed to come up with.

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## ShneekeyTheLost

> Right, but that's exactly my point in that discussion. That description doesn't match Final Fantasy (aside from Tactics) or The Legend of Zelda at all. I cited the definition because I wanted to make sure we were using the term the same way, since it came across as if Erloas wasn't using it to refer to that, and the discussion just kind of stopped after that without him ever clarifying.


I am using the term Isometric to refer to observing the character from an angle so as to give the impression of 3d within a 2d space. Take, for example, Link to the Past as a prime example. You aren't looking top-down at him, you're at an angle, this gives the impression of depth in a 2d environment. Same with literally every Final Fantasy game except the first which is a true top-down view rather than an angle. FF VII, for example, uses either an isometric view at an angle despite a polyhedron icon for overworld movement, or a fixed camera angle on a set piece. Rarely do you follow 'over the shoulder', and generally only in tight quarters where no other camera angle would work. 

This is an isometric viewpoint for an RPG, which was the gold standard for the genre and is still frequently used, although rarely in the AAA studios. 

You are attempting to conflate an isometric view with a specific subgenre of turn-based strategy games. These include things like the X-COM franchise, the O.G.R.E. series, Suidoken series, Breath of Fire series, and yes, FF Tactics. While yes, they certainly DO use an isometric view, that is not the defining feature of the genre. Isometric views have been used in far more games than have not, and indie games in particular use it extensively because it is VASTLY cheaper than trying to do 3d models and an over-the-shoulder view. 

The move to 3d has been, in my opinion, a VAST disimprovement to the RPG genre in general. The camera angles are a far greater boss than anything the actual game throws at you, which completely and entirely eliminates any chance of immersion. Hell, the whole reason why I consider BotW to be 'good' instead of one of the best games ever is because of the never-to-be-sufficiently-reviled camera control scheme. At least early 3d view games had a camera following around behind you, which could kind of maybe work. Having to manually handle the camera is NOT a gameplay mechanic I enjoy. After nearly two decades, they've finally gotten 3d graphics to the point where they're no longer Uncanny Valley, but any control scheme you have to fight with to function within the game is a bad control scheme.

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## Zevox

> I am using the term Isometric to refer to observing the character from an angle so as to give the impression of 3d within a 2d space. Take, for example, Link to the Past as a prime example. You aren't looking top-down at him, you're at an angle, this gives the impression of depth in a 2d environment. Same with literally every Final Fantasy game except the first which is a true top-down view rather than an angle. FF VII, for example, uses either an isometric view at an angle despite a polyhedron icon for overworld movement, or a fixed camera angle on a set piece. Rarely do you follow 'over the shoulder', and generally only in tight quarters where no other camera angle would work.


*looks at this paragraph*
*looks at the below screenshots*

*Spoiler*
Show





What are you talking about? That's simply not true.




> You are attempting to conflate an isometric view with a specific subgenre of turn-based strategy games.


I am not. I explicitly stated that the first game that comes to mind for me as an isometric game is Sonic 3D Blast, and agreed with Erloas, after looking up screenshots of the games since I'm unfamiliar with them, that Fallout 1 and 2 appear to be isometric. It just so happens that the only Final Fantasy games that fit as isometric are the Tactics ones, so I keep giving that as the exception when talking about Final Fantasy specifically in order to be accurate.

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## Saambell

> I am using the term Isometric to refer to observing the character from an angle so as to give the impression of 3d within a 2d space. Take, for example, Link to the Past as a prime example. You aren't looking top-down at him, you're at an angle, this gives the impression of depth in a 2d environment. Same with literally every Final Fantasy game except the first which is a true top-down view rather than an angle. FF VII, for example, uses either an isometric view at an angle despite a polyhedron icon for overworld movement, or a fixed camera angle on a set piece. Rarely do you follow 'over the shoulder', and generally only in tight quarters where no other camera angle would work. 
> 
> This is an isometric viewpoint for an RPG, which was the gold standard for the genre and is still frequently used, although rarely in the AAA studios. 
> 
> You are attempting to conflate an isometric view with a specific subgenre of turn-based strategy games. These include things like the X-COM franchise, the O.G.R.E. series, Suidoken series, Breath of Fire series, and yes, FF Tactics. While yes, they certainly DO use an isometric view, that is not the defining feature of the genre. Isometric views have been used in far more games than have not, and indie games in particular use it extensively because it is VASTLY cheaper than trying to do 3d models and an over-the-shoulder view.


However, Legend of Zelda and Final Fantasy fail on the "rpg" part of the term Isometric RPG as they are NOT RPGs. They include no character choice, no dialogue options, no ROLEPLAYING. They are just stories that you read then go off into fights. Legend of Zelda is even worse on that, as it has no stats, no level ups, and a very linear story. Its as much a RPG as a shooter where each level you get a new gun. Final Fantasy has the stats and level ups, but not once do you make any roleplaying choices. Its all existing characters you watch emote with no actual choice how things turn out. The discussion is about, if we want to combine all terms involved to narrow it down enough so people who get super nitpicky about terms can understand: A Isometric Strategy Roleplaying Real Time with Pause (or sometimes Turn Based) Dialogue Heavy Where Choices Matter but Characters have Stats and Levels Game. Which most people would understand as "Western Isometric RPG", which functions very differently from most Western RPGs which dont use Isometric view, or JRPGs which, going by screenshots, barely do. This is like getting fussy about "is James Cameron's Avatar a cartoon as 90% of the movie is not real" and comparing it to Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones when the topic is "Live Action Sci Fi movies". Missing the Genre to talk about the camera. 




> Hell, the whole reason why I consider BotW to be 'good' instead of one of the best games ever is because of the never-to-be-sufficiently-reviled camera control scheme.


There's never enough BOTW slander for me. I really don't like that game. Have tried it several times, and always bounced off. The combat is grating, if not to be avoided, the exploration tedious, the shrines either laughably simple or just screaming come back later, the puzzles lacklustre as they all have to be built off the same 4 tools you unlock from the start, and the plot non-existent as its spread across the entire map. Oh, and the horses suck.

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## ShneekeyTheLost

> *looks at this paragraph*
> *looks at the below screenshots*
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You post three out of four pictures in an isometric view and claim to do anything other than undermining your own point? With the second being an aforementioned cramped quarters shot that was already called out as an exception (which also, technically, is part of a cutscene)?

I don't know if you aren't aware of what an isometric view is or if you are being deliberately obtuse. In either case, you have already proven my point with your own posted images. Also in either case, I have no desire to continue pointing to the images you are posting and going 'Yes, that is an Isometric view', and you attempting to claim they aren't. 

Therefore, since this is getting us nowhere, let us simply drop the matter and move on with the original topic before the moderators get upset.

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## Zevox

> You post three out of four pictures in an isometric view and claim to do anything other than undermining your own point? With the second being an aforementioned cramped quarters shot that was already called out as an exception (which also, technically, is part of a cutscene)?
> 
> I don't know if you aren't aware of what an isometric view is or if you are being deliberately obtuse. In either case, you have already proven my point with your own posted images. Also in either case, I have no desire to continue pointing to the images you are posting and going 'Yes, that is an Isometric view', and you attempting to claim they aren't. 
> 
> Therefore, since this is getting us nowhere, let us simply drop the matter and move on with the original topic before the moderators get upset.


 :Small Confused:  I legitimately have no idea what you think you're talking about. Those screenshots are not of isometric anything. They literally don't match your own description of what an isometric view is. The Zelda and FF4 screenshots are a top-down view, and the FF7 ones can most closely be called over-the-shoulder. Though the reality with FF7 specifically is that outside of the world map (which I made sure to include since it works differently than the rest of the game, actually being a full 3D space), what it does is put 3D character models on top of simple 2D images for backgrounds and create invisible walls limiting where on the image you can move to give the appearance that you're moving across a map.

None of them are, in your own words, "observing the character from an angle so as to give the impression of 3d within a 2d space."

For comparison, here are the first three images that come up when I do a google search simply for "isometric video game":
*Spoiler*
Show





Notice how all of them are turned at an angle - we're seeing the corners of buildings or rock formations and both sides attached to it, rather than just the front. Characters are similarly viewed from a diagonal angle. That's how the isometric view creates that impression of three dimensions while only working with two. (The third screenshot might be of an actual 3D game, I'm not sure about that one, but it's at least mimicking the kind of angle that isometric views use, so including it.)

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## Erloas

I didn't mean to disappear, I just travel for work and often don't have more than my phone to post from, which doesn't work well for imbedding pictures and such.

My whole point was that Isometric RPG isn't a genre at all.  And all the ones I could think of had very little in common.  To me Fallout 2 and Diablo are the biggest ones I can think of historically.  Of course I know Baulder's Gate was big too, I just didn't play it.

FF7 pictures (I hope these post, they might not, I found them online, not someplace I can host)
*Spoiler*
Show









Those look very Isometric in design to me.  Granted FF7 did a lot of things, and they had plenty of cut scenes that used different points of view, and some small interior areas that looked a bit less so, but the majority of the game is.

I think even if we just limit the discussion to 3rd person turn based RPGs, they never went away and were never "dying" they just went from being one of the best options to make a game to one of many different options.  And both individuals and the game media like to claim something is dying if there is one game of a genre that is a dud or go a little while between games.

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## Rynjin

> I think even if we just limit the discussion to 3rd person turn based RPGs, they never went away and were never "dying" they just went from being one of the best options to make a game to one of many different options.  And both individuals and the game media like to claim something is dying if there is one game of a genre that is a dud or go a little while between games.


The word I used was "niche", which it is. And they did indeed die out for a while. Very few isometric RPGs, CRPGs, or whatever arbitrary term you specifically decide to use that you will accept as the correct definition pretty much stopped being made for about a decade, in large part because consoles dominated the market and it's really, really hard to make CRPGs on consoles.

Bioware was pretty much the only high profile company making them for a long time, and even they didn't hit it super big until Dragon Age: Origins in 2009.

What big isometric RPG releases were there between 1998 and 2009? KotOR 1 and 2 in '03 and '04, but we already covered Bioware.

And uhhhh...Icewind Dale in 2000? People still sorta knew that game existed because of brand recognition (similar to KotOR), and it was pretty commercially successful.

What else? Planescape: Torment is well-loved, but sold poorly even by CRPG standards at the time.

Are there any successful ones of the era that DON'T have the D&D or Star Wars branding propping them up?

Arcanum? It sold better than Torment, at least, but nowhere near what Icewind Dale did. And bonus points for also being the only game mentioned so far not by Bioware or Black Isles.

The Divinity games of the era did not sell well, and it prompted Larian to rapidly shift gears to...whatever the absolute **** Ego Draconis was.

I'd say the genre essentially skipping most of a decade (closer to a decade and a half) without any particular hits indicates that it had "died out" during the time period.

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## Taevyr

> (The third screenshot might be of an actual 3D game, I'm not sure about that one, but it's at least mimicking the kind of angle that isometric views use, so including it.)


Last one's Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire, which is explicitly an isometric RPG. One of the most recent ones, so I wouldn't be surprised if the techniques used are a bit beyond typical isometric display, but still the same fundamental elements.

And yeah, there was definitely a bit of a "dead zone" for isometric RPG's in the 2000's until the resurgence with Pillars, Harebrained Schemes' Shadowrun games and, of course, Original Sin.

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## Mechalich

> The word I used was "niche", which it is. And they did indeed die out for a while. Very few isometric RPGs, CRPGs, or whatever arbitrary term you specifically decide to use that you will accept as the correct definition pretty much stopped being made for about a decade, in large part because consoles dominated the market and it's really, really hard to make CRPGs on consoles.


I think the mainstreaming of MMORPGs also contributed. WoW came out in 2004 and proved that the MMO model could make _all of the money_ and a lot of studios shifted efforts in that direction. For example, Bioware developed SWTOR instead of KotoR 3. Even console-based, traditionally single-player titles branched into the MMO space during the subsequent decade, for example, Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine, released in 2007. RPGs in general, not just the US-studio produced cRPGs, suffered as a result, and there was a distinctive push towards hybridization - especially with shooters, as witnessed by the Mass Effect and Fallout franchises - to increase overall appeal. Even then, and even when dealing with the biggest publishers, there were shortcuts. Bethesda reused their aging engine until it was a bloated zombie, Dragon Age 2 blatantly reuses in-game assets, etc. 

Insofar as this old style of RPG has come back, it's because the proliferation of indie games has allowed for the resurgence of a niche that stresses story and classic gameplay over graphical capability and therefore be produced slowly and lovingly by small teams. Disco Elysium is probably the ultimate example of this, but it applies to plenty of recent creations in the space. And it applies to other genres as well, which so there's a broader shift in both technology - fairly high-end programming tools like Unity being widely available seems to matter - and the marketplace - the ability of the Steam portal to bypass traditional storefronts has proliferated all kinds of indie games.

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## Zevox

Before resuming conversations, I feel like posting one last thing about Bayonetta 3, and since there doesn't seem to be enough others also playing it for the thread I tried starting, I'll just do so here. The last couple of days I've been attempting the game's ultimate bonus boss fight, with Rodin. I know he's been in the previous games, but I never unlocked the fight in those; this time, I made a point of doing so. And oh gods. I thought that the Masked Lumen in Bayonetta 2 was the series' version of the Dante vs Vergil fight, and thematically I suppose it is, but in terms of gameplay, oh no, this is it. Rodin is an _exhilitaring_ boss fight - he is fast (many of his attacks are so quick I at first thought them to be unreactable), aggressive, deals incredible damage, and very much has a match for every tool in Bayonetta's arsenal. He can break out of With Time with a combo-breaker technique, dodge and counter-attack in a way no other enemy in the series does, and that's before he gets serious and goes into his demon form, at which point the big guns come out. Try to use big demons to knock him around? He can instantly enrage them, turning them on you, so be careful how long they're out there for. And to top that all off, he has a whopping 10 health bars to chew through, and doesn't even go demon form until you've gotten through four.

He may very well be the hardest boss fight I've ever played. I don't know how many times exactly I've died to him now, but I know it's well over 100, since that's how many deaths to him it takes for the weapon you can earn by beating him to be made available in his shop (for an incredibly steep purchase price equal to the amount it took to unlock the fight in the first place), and I got there after the first day of trying. I've now had three days of attempts, and averaging taking 4-5 life bars off him per try, with my best attempt capping out at 8. And yet, I'm not frustrated, I'm loving it. Because Bayonetta is a game where you yourself are incredibly powerful. Not only because of your offensive options (though those are certainly great), but because theoretically, if you play well and can react to attacks right, you're untouchable, because anything and everything you do can be canceled into your dodge, and a well-time dodge activates Witch Time, giving you free hits. A fight like this that forces you to use all of those abilities to their fullest, to be at your sharpest throughout the match, to get anywhere near overcoming him is a damn thrill. And it's also pretty hard to be mad at him once you notice that all of his attacks never kill outright unless you're already on your last pixel of health - dude's always giving you one more chance than he probably has to.

Sadly, with God of War Ragnarok hitting tonight, I'll be setting Bayonetta 3 aside without conquering Rodin for now. But damn, once I'm done with Ragnarok, I need to come back and finish this. He's my white whale at this point.




> I didn't mean to disappear, I just travel for work and often don't have more than my phone to post from, which doesn't work well for imbedding pictures and such.


Fair, I apologize if I came across as accusatory with my remarks there. The conversation here has just been frustrating, feels like there's a lot of talking past each other (or deliberate gaslighting, though I'd hope that's not anyone's intent) going on. Let's see if we can fix that, shall we?




> FF7 pictures (I hope these post, they might not, I found them online, not someplace I can host)
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The third of those is just the world map, which definitely isn't isometric, it's a fully 3D map with a controllable camera. For the rest, as I mentioned earlier, what FF7 does is basically put the 3D characters models over simple 2D backgrounds - just jpegs, basically - with invisible walls defining the paths the models can take to make the backgrounds appear to work like terrain. Some of these can use a camera angle similar to what an isometric game would, sure, such as those first two with the walkways, but others are top-down, side-on, or over-the-shoulder in style. It varies depending on what sort of camera angle they felt worked best for the particular area. I can see how you could pick out certain ones such as the first two and say they look like they would in an isometric game, but that doesn't make the game an isometric one. It just makes it one where, other than in the world map, the camera angles are fixed, and sometimes those fixed camera angles happen to be at the sort of angles you'd see in isometric games.




> Bioware was pretty much the only high profile company making them for a long time, and even they didn't hit it super big until Dragon Age: Origins in 2009.
> 
> What big isometric RPG releases were there between 1998 and 2009? KotOR 1 and 2 in '03 and '04, but we already covered Bioware.


 :Small Confused:  Wait, what? KotOR and Dragon Age were 3D games with fully controllable cameras, how could they be considered isometric?




> Last one's Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire, which is explicitly an isometric RPG. One of the most recent ones, so I wouldn't be surprised if the techniques used are a bit beyond typical isometric display, but still the same fundamental elements.


*hat tip* Thank you for the clarification.

----------


## NeoVid

Back on the thread topic, I just started up a game I'd heard about long ago that caught my interest, though it took me until now to actually try it: "Fuga, Melodies of Steel."  It's set in a just-slightly fantasy world's version of WW1, and starts you out _in media res_ in one of the weirder scenarios I've seen in all my time gaming.  A bunch of kids who were hiding from the army invading their rural village found something in the caves: a nearly forgotten legendary superweapon, the moving fortress called "the Taranis."  But the Taranis isn't as much of a superweapon as it used to be.  It's far from invulnerable to modern weapons, and its one trump card, the Soul Cannon, *can* defeat any opponent immediately, but powering it requires sacrificing one of your crew.  So a bunch of kids potentially have the power to influence the outcome of a war, but actually surviving to succeed at it, and the cost even if they do...  

And let me say, damn, is this game tough.  I'm only at act 3 out of what I think will be 10, but I've already been taken enough of a beating that I'm running dry on ways to recover after battles.  I'll have to get a lot smarter or luckier about the way I fight from now on, because if I run into anything as tough as the Chapter 3 end boss, I really am going to be forced into using the Soul Cannon.  I figure pushing you closer to deciding it's time to sacrifice one of the PCs is a big part of the theme, but I'm hoping I can play well enough that it doesn't come to that... I'm honestly not sure if I'd try to keep going if I put myself in an unwinnable state, since I'd have serious qualms about using the superweapon it gives you to beat "unwinnable."  Now, that's some good ethical conundrum design!




> However, Legend of Zelda and Final Fantasy fail on the "rpg" part of the term Isometric RPG as they are NOT RPGs. They include no character choice, no dialogue options, no ROLEPLAYING. They are just stories that you read then go off into fights. Legend of Zelda is even worse on that, as it has no stats, no level ups, and a very linear story. Its as much a RPG as a shooter where each level you get a new gun. Final Fantasy has the stats and level ups, but not once do you make any roleplaying choices. Its all existing characters you watch emote with no actual choice how things turn out.


It was previously established in this thread that whether a video game has roleplaying is irrelevant to being called an RPG.  Visual novels and Telltale games where the only thing you do is roleplay are not RPGs, while the Epic Battle Fantasy series, which barely have stories, definitely are RPGs.

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## Lord Raziere

> Wait, what? KotOR and Dragon Age were 3D games with fully controllable cameras, how could they be considered isometric?


I'm confused as well, I'm a fan of both, I would say they are not isometric. in comparison to Divinity 2 Original Sin, I can play them just fine, I practically grew playing rpgs on their 3D third person POV.

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## Bohandas

> *looks at this paragraph*
> *looks at the below screenshots*
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, two of those are close enough to top-down as makes no difference

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## Anonymouswizard

> I'm confused as well, I'm a fan of both, I would say they are not isometric. in comparison to Divinity 2 Original Sin, I can play them just fine, I practically grew playing rpgs on their 3D third person POV.


I've never heard of that game. I own Divinity 2: Ego Draconis, and Divinity: Original Sin 2, but not Divinity 2: Original Sin.

Also, I'll note that Disco Elysium, Shadowrun, and Pillars of Eternity use 3D models on prerendered backgrounds. Meanwhile Divinity: Original Sin is fully 3D with a rotatable camera, so it's probably not right to call it isometric.

I've barely played FFVII, but aside from the world map and battle screen it looks like it might fit. I'll also agree that Dragon Age doesn't. Although having played a bit yesterday I can confirm that auto-attack+hotbar RTWP is fine, done right it's not a test of reflexes (as most games are), but of tactics, paitence, perception, and remembering to dump Willpower on your mages.

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## Cygnia

Right now in FF9 I'm enjoying digging up treasures and playing with my Chocobo.  Got him to be able to traverse oceans now.

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## NeoVid

The Chocobo treasure hunting can make you super OP if you progress it faster than you do the main story.  Along with stealing the unique weapon from every boss fight, that'll put you so far ahead of the curve it's hilarious!  One of many reasons 9 is still my second favorite FF.

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## Rynjin

I've been playing a lot of Dungeons and Dragons Online recently. I got the big "most of the adventure packs are unlocked now" code a couple years back, but only played to like level 6. Chilling at 11 now, duo-ing with a friend.

It's a fun game, and I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that EVERYTHING can be done in a group, from the literal moment you step out of the tutorial. There's no prerequsite "bring me 20 bear asses" quests you have to do to unlock your first dungeon at level 10 or whatever, you just ****ing GO.

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## Cygnia

> The Chocobo treasure hunting can make you super OP if you progress it faster than you do the main story.  Along with stealing the unique weapon from every boss fight, that'll put you so far ahead of the curve it's hilarious!  One of many reasons 9 is still my second favorite FF.


What's annoying for Chocobo Hot & Cold (and when I'm popping Dead Peppers) is how acute I have to be in order to dig up treasures.  I'm doing this on my PC so trying to nudge my feet elsewhere is annoying.  I'm at Ocean level now on my birdie.

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## NeoVid

> I've been playing a lot of Dungeons and Dragons Online recently. I got the big "most of the adventure packs are unlocked now" code a couple years back, but only played to like level 6. Chilling at 11 now, duo-ing with a friend.
> 
> It's a fun game, and I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that EVERYTHING can be done in a group, from the literal moment you step out of the tutorial. There's no prerequsite "bring me 20 bear asses" quests you have to do to unlock your first dungeon at level 10 or whatever, you just ****ing GO.


Why is everybody commenting about my old favorite games all of a sudden?  Anyway... It took DDO a long time before it had anything that's *not* an instanced dungeon, and even the open world-ish locations are still reserved for your group.  The fact that it genuinely feels like D&D is one of the main reasons it's different from other MMOs, since you actually need a party with an array of different skills to succeed at most adventures! I was a fanatic about DDO for years, and despite how long it's been since I played, I still sometimes think of how many things I'd still like to get done in that game.

Also, DDO's reincarnation system is one of the coolest ideas I've ever seen in an MMO.  For those who don't know, you can reincarnate a level 20+ character back to level 1, and remake them from scratch, completely changing their class/race if you want.  That also gains them permanent stat increases and exclusive abilities depending on what they were in their past lives.  Besides being the slickest idea for respecs any game's ever thought up, this also means a truly optimized character will need to start the game over multiple times, which means there are players running quests of every level all the time, instead of nearly everyone being level capped like in most MMOs.

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## MCerberus

When I played there was kind of this weird jump in difficulty at level 12 where playing at a level that was good before results in wipes before the first rest shrine. This combined with the fact that you were locked out of pretty much everything except what you save up to unlock... which you then can't find groups for because other players don't have that dungeon group unlocked. Then you get the repeated run penalty.

The first wave of games to go f2p were really aggressively tuned to hate free players. I'm not sure if DDO's "server hop and do the tutorial 50 times" or LOTRO's "kill 500 crows and hope the next zone goes on sale" was worse.

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## Rynjin

> When I played there was kind of this weird jump in difficulty at level 12 where playing at a level that was good before results in wipes before the first rest shrine. This combined with the fact that you were locked out of pretty much everything except what you save up to unlock... which you then can't find groups for because other players don't have that dungeon group unlocked. Then you get the repeated run penalty.
> 
> The first wave of games to go f2p were really aggressively tuned to hate free players. I'm not sure if DDO's "server hop and do the tutorial 50 times" or LOTRO's "kill 500 crows and hope the next zone goes on sale" was worse.


For the last two years around December they've release da code that gives access to all non-Expansion quests, which is like 85% of the game, so it mitigates that issue.

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## AlanBruce

Just finished the first few hours of God of War Ragnarok.

Without going into spoilers, the game is very good and wastes no time setting the tone. The world seems a lot bigger now than in the previous entry. I just finished a sidequest involving Mimir which gives a lot more insight into the very well crafted lore.

I do wish combat werent as punishing, though (I am aware it can be switched at any time). Still, I may have to get used to rolling & parrying again with Kratos.

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## Erloas

> Also, DDO's reincarnation system is one of the coolest ideas I've ever seen in an MMO.  For those who don't know, you can reincarnate a level 20+ character back to level 1, and remake them from scratch, completely changing their class/race if you want.  That also gains them permanent stat increases and exclusive abilities depending on what they were in their past lives.  Besides being the slickest idea for respecs any game's ever thought up, this also means a truly optimized character will need to start the game over multiple times, which means there are players running quests of every level all the time, instead of nearly everyone being level capped like in most MMOs.


This is the first I've heard of reincarnation in a game since MUDs. It was very common in those from what I saw. But considering the relatively low player counts those had and that most of them have been dead for 20 years, it is not a surprise that it would seem like a new idea.
Do they increase the XP to level for each reincarnation? It used to be 2x each time, so first took twice as long to level up, second time was 4x, 3rd 8x, etc. The bonuses were good but it was hard to justify the grind to level up again after a few reincarnation.

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## halfeye

> This is the first I've heard of reincarnation in a game since MUDs. It was very common in those from what I saw. But considering the relatively low player counts those had and that most of them have been dead for 20 years, it is not a surprise that it would seem like a new idea.
> Do they increase the XP to level for each reincarnation? It used to be 2x each time, so first took twice as long to level up, second time was 4x, 3rd 8x, etc. The bonuses were good but it was hard to justify the grind to level up again after a few reincarnation.


Dungeon Master (from 1986 I think) had "Altars of Vi" That would reicarnate one of your characters if you brought their bones (which were left when they died), but there was definitely a downside to dying, lost stats of some sort, don't remember exactly what.

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## Rynjin

> This is the first I've heard of reincarnation in a game since MUDs. It was very common in those from what I saw. But considering the relatively low player counts those had and that most of them have been dead for 20 years, it is not a surprise that it would seem like a new idea.
> Do they increase the XP to level for each reincarnation? It used to be 2x each time, so first took twice as long to level up, second time was 4x, 3rd 8x, etc. The bonuses were good but it was hard to justify the grind to level up again after a few reincarnation.


I know XP to level up scales for sure, but I don't think it's  exponential. Lemme check the wiki.

Ah. It doesn't say by how much the XP goes up, but after your second Reincarnation (3rd life) the XP locks and stays at that level for all subsequent ones.

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## NeoVid

> This is the first I've heard of reincarnation in a game since MUDs. It was very common in those from what I saw. But considering the relatively low player counts those had and that most of them have been dead for 20 years, it is not a surprise that it would seem like a new idea.


Hell, DDO's old enough that it could have taken the idea from MUDs that were still active back when it was in production.  I do remember that there are several types of reincarnation in DDO.  Lesser is just a respec, True Reincarnation is the one that starts a maxed out character over from character creation, and there's Epic Reincarnation, which sets a high Epic character back to level 20 and gets you access to exclusive epic level abilities.

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## ShneekeyTheLost

> Hell, DDO's old enough that it could have taken the idea from MUDs that were still active back when it was in production.  I do remember that there are several types of reincarnation in DDO.  Lesser is just a respec, True Reincarnation is the one that starts a maxed out character over from character creation, and there's Epic Reincarnation, which sets a high Epic character back to level 20 and gets you access to exclusive epic level abilities.


Sounds like a New Game Plus mode or maybe a Roguelite mechanic.

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## Zevox

> Just finished the first few hours of God of War Ragnarok.
> 
> Without going into spoilers, the game is very good and wastes no time setting the tone. The world seems a lot bigger now than in the previous entry. I just finished a sidequest involving Mimir which gives a lot more insight into the very well crafted lore.
> 
> I do wish combat werent as punishing, though (I am aware it can be switched at any time). Still, I may have to get used to rolling & parrying again with Kratos.


I've been playing a hell of a lot of Ragnarok, since I took vacation time this week just because it was coming out. I'm probably a good 16-ish hours in, and yeah, it is so good. It's less surprising now than it was in 2018 I suppose, but I don't think I'll ever quite stop being amazed that I can now honestly say that God of War of all things has an incredibly well-written story and well-developed characters. 

Gameplay is basically the same, but a bit better. More enemy variety, more moves, better-handled armor (no more occasionally buying a new armor set that is much like one of your old ones, but better; every set is different and seems to be fully upgradable to presumably-end-game levels), better integration of the Blades of Chaos into puzzles and exploration, fun new types of puzzles. Not everything is brand new, but enough is. They clearly did not just rest on their laurels and put out a sequel solely to conclude the story.

I find myself in almost the opposite situation difficulty wise. I picked the standard difficulty, since I play through just about everything on that the first time, and am continually wondering whether I should crank it up. Not that I'm never dying or anything, but after playing Bayonetta 3, I do crave a bit more challenge. Still, the normal difficulty's not easy enough that I'm bored by the fights, and I could see certain things getting a bit frustrating if I turned it up right away.

Most fun surprises for me (spoilers, one quite big, for the middle of the game; if you haven't been to Vanaheim yet, you probably shouldn't read):
*Spoiler*
Show

You get to play as Atreus! And he definitely feels a lot different from his father, as he should. A lot more focused on getting stuns instead of raw damage, and of course much more ranged, since he's an archer/mage. I kind of want there to be a point where you get to start changing between them at will, but I see there's no "change characters" button among the options for the control layout, so I'm guessing he'll just have his dedicated parts of the game. Oh well, still awesome.

And Freya joins you as a companion once you manage to work things out with her! She uses the same magical arrows as Atreus, but otherwise fights differently than him, and has her own separate skill tree. Wow was that a pleasant, cool surprise. I was half thinking that you'd end up needing to tragically kill her due to her quest for vengeance on Kratos over Baldur's death, but damn if they didn't handle working through that with her well. Don't know if you ever get to play as her like you do Atreus yet, but I'm kinda hoping you do.

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## warty goblin

Gave into some temporally displaced hype and grabbed God Of War (not Ragnarok, the previous one) the other day. I'd been holding off because the other big name Playstation-to-PC ports I've tried have been extremely underwhelming. Horizon Zero Dawn was fine, but I liked it better back in 2013 when it was called Tomb Raider. And Days Gone was so cookie cutter bland I suspect in 20 years when you can ask the Mediocre God AI for a post zombie apocalypse third person action game, it'll just hand you Days Gone and go back to calculating the most efficient way to convert our useless species into paperclips.

So 40 minutes of God of War. It's fun. I like it. It's a third person action game on which approximately all the money has been spent. There's no stamina bar,  animations are snappy, and things notice when you hit them, so combat is fun. It seems to remember that level design is a thing games can do, so it has areas to poke around in and investigate, which is nice. Writing is good, and has been directed by somebody with a sense for camera placement and tone.

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## Cespenar

It's weird how some companies dump like a billion dollars into a game and make it good at the same time.

(I liked the 2018 GoW too)

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## warty goblin

> It's weird how some companies dump like a billion dollars into a game and make it good at the same time.
> 
> (I liked the 2018 GoW too)


Mostly it just surprises me when they haven't been polished into a state of aggressive and umambitious blandness. They're usually good in a technical sense, but often lack much in the way of spark. GoW appears to still have some creative verve to it. Or maybe it's just the satisfaction of finally finding something with actually good 100% Dark Souls free combat again. Boy I've missed that.

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## AlanBruce

> Mostly it just surprises me when they haven't been polished into a state of aggressive and umambitious blandness. They're usually good in a technical sense, but often lack much in the way of spark. GoW appears to still have some creative verve to it. Or maybe it's just the satisfaction of finally finding something with actually good 100% Dark Souls free combat again. Boy I've missed that.


The 2018 God of War game blew everyone out of the water because of the radical shift from its established gameplay from over a decade. Very good writing, incredible attention to detail and voice acting. A brand new world to explore

But make no mistake: there is combat - optional combat- that definitely takes inspiration from Dark Souls.

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## Zevox

> Gave into some temporally displaced hype and grabbed God Of War (not Ragnarok, the previous one) the other day. I'd been holding off because the other big name Playstation-to-PC ports I've tried have been extremely underwhelming. Horizon Zero Dawn was fine, but I liked it better back in 2013 when it was called Tomb Raider. And Days Gone was so cookie cutter bland I suspect in 20 years when you can ask the Mediocre God AI for a post zombie apocalypse third person action game, it'll just hand you Days Gone and go back to calculating the most efficient way to convert our useless species into paperclips.
> 
> So 40 minutes of God of War. It's fun. I like it. It's a third person action game on which approximately all the money has been spent. There's no stamina bar,  animations are snappy, and things notice when you hit them, so combat is fun. It seems to remember that level design is a thing games can do, so it has areas to poke around in and investigate, which is nice. Writing is good, and has been directed by somebody with a sense for camera placement and tone.


Ah, glad to hear it. Enjoy it, it's certainly a great ride. 

Helps if you're at least passingly familiar with the original three games so you have a good idea of Kratos' history and why he might be like he is. Though really, those can ultimately be summed up as: "angry man/god goes on rampage, kills Olympian gods; it doesn't end well for anyone."




> But make no mistake: there is combat - optional combat- that definitely takes inspiration from Dark Souls.


 :Small Confused:  What are you thinking of with that? None of the optional quests strike me as at all Dark Souls-like.

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## Triaxx

DDO does 2 million XP for the first life, then goes up to 3.8 million for life 3+. They just boosted the level cap to 32, completely overhauled it's epic systems and as of wednesday revamped HP for all classes (bumping most things to 5e die sizes) and reworked a couple of old systems. It is, by no means the most graphically pretty game ever, but it's still a heck of a lot of fun. And they just finished out a Hardcore season, which is a temporary one life to live server. This season was quite tough, but they're not all like that. It does have issues that I absolutely won't deny, but show me something that's 16 years old without some kind of issues.

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## Rynjin

> DDO does 2 million XP for the first life, then goes up to 3.8 million for life 3+. They just boosted the level cap to 32, completely overhauled it's epic systems and as of wednesday revamped HP for all classes (bumping most things to 5e die sizes) and reworked a couple of old systems. It is, by no means the most graphically pretty game ever, but it's still a heck of a lot of fun. And they just finished out a Hardcore season, which is a temporary one life to live server. This season was quite tough, but they're not all like that. It does have issues that I absolutely won't deny, but show me something that's 16 years old without some kind of issues.


I think it actually looks pretty good for what it is. A strong art direction makes up for low poly textures, and DDO has that in spades. The main complaints I have about its looks are polish issues, not purely graphical ones (eg. that one staircase in the Keep on the Borderlands wilderness area that isn't properly meshed into the ground and just hangs in the air), otherwise the game looks pretty good for something made in '06; I actually think it looks better than even modern WoW for instance.

Thanks for fielding some of my questions over on the DDO Reddit BTW. =p

----------


## Silverraptor

Been Playing the latest Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2. Campaign was weak. Not like the last Modern warfare II where the campaign had moments of 2 armies fighting each other. This was all about hunting down some terrorists, which was a lot lower in threat then anything from the original. Missiles weren't even nuclear, so they didn't even have that threat. Multiplayer is better though so I'm going to be playing that for a bit.

----------


## Triaxx

You're welcome. If the staircase you're talking about is the one I'm thinking of, it was added after some complaints, so the placement might not be exactly right.

Honestly you can tell a significant contrast between old DDO and New DDO stuff. Be it Tabaxi vs Dragonborn or the Marketplace Dungeons vs Feywild ones. The new stuff looks much better, and certain improvements have made the older stuff look better yet.

----------


## AlanBruce

> What are you thinking of with that? None of the optional quests strike me as at all Dark Souls-like.


To me, at least, the Valkyrie sidequest- especially the last one- felt like a Dark Souls boss encounter in terms of difficulty.

----------


## Zevox

> To me, at least, the Valkyrie sidequest- especially the last one- felt like a Dark Souls boss encounter in terms of difficulty.


Eh, if you're calling any challenging boss fight Dark Souls-like, I'd say you're using that comparison far too loosely. Tough boss fights long predate Dark Souls.

----------


## Cespenar

> Mostly it just surprises me when they haven't been polished into a state of aggressive and umambitious blandness. They're usually good in a technical sense, but often lack much in the way of spark. GoW appears to still have some creative verve to it. Or maybe it's just the satisfaction of finally finding something with actually good 100% Dark Souls free combat again. Boy I've missed that.


I don't know if I can remember anything in GoW being really creative -- feel free to challenge that -- but rather just plain better executed.

----------


## Zombimode

So, I finished *Red Alert 3: Uprising*. Pretty much everything I've expressed about this game in this thread holds true, as does what other people have said:
- the game is build to reward very high levels of micro
- every unit has some "special ability" including the infamous "stunning bark" of Dogs
- the style is un-serious camp which I don't really enjoy
- the plot viewed in its broad strokes is solid but the implementation is paper-thin and pretty much forgettable 

But:
- you can really feel that the game designers have put some thought into every aspect of the game
- playing the game feels fluent, snappy and fun
- the campaign mission design is really good - this is what really saves the game for me


My next gaming plans involve Solasta, playing the second campaign and making use of the character content of the new Inner Strength DLC (adding Dragonborn, Warlocks, Bards and Monks to the game). But Inner Strength just came out yesterday, and I've finished Uprising on Friday. I had some free time on the weekend and my RTS craving was not yet completely filled. As such I turned to some older RTS:

First one is *Dark Colony*. Now, Dark Colony is not available on any modern distribution plattform so getting it to run (and getting it in the first place) is a taks of its own. Getting it to run _smootghly_ is another matter altogether. I managed the first part but not the latter.
Dark Colony was released in 1997, during the RTS craze. The game is dark (duh), quite gore-y and at least somewhat serious (in a B-Movie SciFi style). It pitches the human corporate owned militaries during their effort of colonising a just-terraformed Mars against the Gray-style aliens. The aliens are NOT natives of Mars, but have lived there for some centuries now. And to make matters worse, the Red Planet holds some mysteries of its own...

I like the setup, I like the style. Sadly, the game has not aged well. I don't like this phrase but I don't know how to describe it better. It simply compares to very well against other contemorary games that DO play very well even today.
It has a number of issues:
- the mouse scrolling is really lackluster. I ended up using the arrow key to move the camera.
- the soundtrack is good, but after a short while playing the game it becomes completely garbled.
- unit responsiveness is horrible - and they block each other constantly. Controlling an even moderately size army is like herding cats. You could say that about many older RTS but it is really bad here!
- the game lacks several rather basic RTS features like grouping your units (like with Ctrl + number)

I could deal with the first two issues, but together with the other problems it was to much for me. I gave up after 4 missions.


Then I turned to *KKND* which IS available on GoG. It runs and plays _much_ better then Dark Colony. Both games were released in 1997.
The setting of KKND is post-appocalyptic. Underground survivors of humanity against the mutated humans of the surface. Not all that serious, but quite fun. The mission design so far is solid. I plan to return to this game, maybe after Solasta  :Small Smile: 

Edit: Regarding Solasta: gah, I hate that rolling is not only the standard stat generating method but that you get one set of stats already rolled. Yesterday I had to stare at an array of 17, 17, 15, 14, 14, 11 and just now at 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 13! Knowing that I can not even get close to that with point buy  :Small Mad: 
Why not making point buy the default, or at least require to click a button to roll for stats.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I needed a break from Pillars of Eternity, so I booted up Bloodlines and resumed a Toreador playthrough I left at an early stage. It's very interesting to go back and look at what 'play it your way' open RPGs looked like two decades ago. The game is even more heavily biased towards stealth and dialogue builds than modern games are (at least in the early game), but I've noticed a big difference that feels like a counterintuitive positive.

The maps are smaller.

I know this was the era of games like Morrowind, so massive modern world's were a thing. But Bloodlines is tiny and that really works in it's favour. I can actually pull up my mental map of Santa Monica after all this time and use it to navigate, although I'll be a little bit more shaky on Downtown and Hollywood.

Also wow is the combat in this game terrible early on. Like, I know the melee combat remains mostly boring throughout, but I'm hoping the FPS stuff becomes better as the game goes on. Because at this point I have one weak pistol, which took a good chunk of XP to get basic proficiency in (which I was hoping to spend on sneaking), and this isn't even a Pathologic situation where you're intentionally given bad equipment. It's a good weapon for this point in the game, but it means combat gets repetitive fast.

ETA: **** that Sabbat warehouse mission.

I'm at Ranged Combat 5, but the basic pistol still seems to take four hits to down a basic mook. Which is fine when there's one or two of them, but not when there's a half dozen of them or a Gangrel thrown into the mix. You can't really bring ammunition for the shotgun you can get either, which means that alerting the enemies without being a melee build basically requires a reload. Guess it's another attempt at a stealth run tomorrow.

----------


## ShneekeyTheLost

> I needed a break from Pillars of Eternity, so I booted up Bloodlines and resumed a Toreador playthrough I left at an early stage. It's very interesting to go back and look at what 'play it your way' open RPGs looked like two decades ago. The game is even more heavily biased towards stealth and dialogue builds than modern games are (at least in the early game), but I've noticed a big difference that feels like a counterintuitive positive.
> 
> The maps are smaller.
> 
> I know this was the era of games like Morrowind, so massive modern world's were a thing. But Bloodlines is tiny and that really works in it's favour. I can actually pull up my mental map of Santa Monica after all this time and use it to navigate, although I'll be a little bit more shaky on Downtown and Hollywood.
> 
> Also wow is the combat in this game terrible early on. Like, I know the melee combat remains mostly boring throughout, but I'm hoping the FPS stuff becomes better as the game goes on. Because at this point I have one weak pistol, which took a good chunk of XP to get basic proficiency in (which I was hoping to spend on sneaking), and this isn't even a Pathologic situation where you're intentionally given bad equipment. It's a good weapon for this point in the game, but it means combat gets repetitive fast.
> 
> ETA: **** that Sabbat warehouse mission.
> ...


Yea, guns are really weak in that game, and for a reason. The old white wolf games Bloodlines was based on strongly discouraged their use because they did normal damage, which practically everything mostly ignored. You needed to do some kind of Lethal or Aggravated Damage if you wanted to do anything. So a melee sword build is pretty optimal for combat. However, the game wasn't designed around combat, and is specifically designed to give you options. You can diplomacy your way out of several situations, you can stealth, or you can murder hobo. Kind of like a primitive version of Dishonored, really, in that regard. 

I suspect one of the devs felt that ranged weapons were inherently more dangerous than melee because range and so nerfed their damage appropriately. However, it generally pays to invest in your blood abilities. For example, instead of Firearms 5, you could've invested into a couple of points of Celerity and simply shot faster and probably dished out more damage over time. Of course, being a Tori, you could also have invested into Domination and had them fight each other.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Yea, guns are really weak in that game, and for a reason. The old white wolf games Bloodlines was based on strongly discouraged their use because they did normal damage, which practically everything mostly ignored. You needed to do some kind of Lethal or Aggravated Damage if you wanted to do anything. So a melee sword build is pretty optimal for combat. However, the game wasn't designed around combat, and is specifically designed to give you options. You can diplomacy your way out of several situations, you can stealth, or you can murder hobo. Kind of like a primitive version of Dishonored, really, in that regard.


Guns did lethal damage to humans, who also couldn't soak lethal. So they should be taking the human mooks down faster.




> I suspect one of the devs felt that ranged weapons were inherently more dangerous than melee because range and so nerfed their damage appropriately. However, it generally pays to invest in your blood abilities. For example, instead of Firearms 5, you could've invested into a couple of points of Celerity and simply shot faster and probably dished out more damage over time. Of course, being a Tori, you could also have invested into Domination and had them fight each other.


I'm actually mostly invested into social skills, I have points in firearms because I know you can't use them in this mission (and I have points in Perception because it also increases noticing stuff). Also I'm Toreador, I don't HAVE Dominate, and Presence isn't really anything special.

Maybe I'll just restart as Tremere. Yeah, I'll probably do that, I remember that Dominate and especially Thaumaturgy rock.

----------


## Eldan

My first run was as a Toreador. I remember actually doing decently well with just social skills early on, and in the second half of the game, when damage was mandatory, I got a sword, Celerity and Auspex, which worked well enough.

----------


## Triaxx

I've seen a few people play it, but the one that seemed to have the most fun was as a Malkavian Melee build. Sword was fun, but the Fireaxe was hilarious.

----------


## Taevyr

Never did a Toreador playthrough, but I can imagine gun + superspeed being a lot more useful in tabletop than in bloodlines' combat "system". Still, zoomies ought to still be useful. My Tremere's main weapons were guns, and the revolvers (or whatever category the 6-bullet hand cannons fell under was named) could pack quite a punch in my recollection.

I only did a Tremere, Gangrel and a partial Malkavian run, though those were done with the Clan Quest Mod installed: it adds a few quests (including the eponymous clan-specific ones), the option to side with the Sabbat, and a new area where the sabbat-quests (or Prince-enforced infiltration quests) take place. The latter is skippable (on the camarilla side) by simply failing to convince the sabbat you want to join. It also shifts up quite a lot of the powers, which makes things more interesting.

Either way, if you're not playing on GOG, I'd recommend getting the unofficial patch+, as it fixes quite a few bugs and restores some "missing" content. It's nice.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Steam version, unofficial patch, and I think I used the Camarilla Edition mod pack installer back in the day, which let me install the Clan Quest mod and a stripped down version of the companion mod.

----------


## Mr.Silver

> Never did a Toreador playthrough, but I can imagine gun + superspeed being a lot more useful in tabletop than in bloodlines' combat "system". Still, zoomies ought to still be useful. My Tremere's main weapons were guns, and the revolvers (or whatever category the 6-bullet hand cannons fell under was named) could pack quite a punch in my recollection.


They can, yes. Guns are, overall, fairly viable in Bloodlines it's just that owing to the starting pistol being a glorified pea-shooter they don't start holding-up own until the mid-game (usually once you get reliable acces to decent shotguns), and won't really start excelling until pretty late (e.g. crossbows, the flamethrower). So, a firearm combat build is a 'start weak, end-up strong' affair, in contrast to unarmed, which starts very strong (comparitively) but will quickly get outpaced by the other options unless you're playing a Gangrel (part of the reason Brujah are good for gunslinging is because their starting points in brawl can make-up for the starting pistol's weakness, incidentally). Melee weapons  are generally solid throughout, probably at their comparative strongest in the mid-game.

The other thing with firearms is that what the 'firearms' skill does isn't necessarily super-intuitive to a lot of players. As it doesn't really increase weapon _damage_ too much, but rather improves _accuracy_ - reducing overal spread (indicated by the size of the corss-hairs) and 'aiming' time (the time it takes for the crosshairs to return to their minimum spread). If you want high damage with ranged weapons you want to be landing headshots as much as possible, which the firearms skill will help you to do, but you still need to be aiming for it. Part of the reason why celerity is good with guns is that it makes it easier to click on heads.

----------


## Zevox

I've completed God of War: Ragnarok. Pretty much 100%ed it, aside from one Legendary Chest I missed in Alfheim that I don't feel like going back for, and some of the "labors" (i.e. "get bonus XP for doing a thing X number of times" quests, the most forgettable bonus thing you can do). Non-spoiler version: the game is incredibly good and I loved it. Put together with its predecessor to form the complete story, it's honestly probably one of my favorite games of all time. Gameplay-wise, it's the first game but better; not a lot to say, but that's not for lack of there being plenty good about it, it's fun from start to finish in every regard. Story-wise...

*Spoiler*
Show

Again, while less surprising now than it was in 2018 when the first game of this duology came out, I don't know that I'll ever get over what they accomplished here. They took one of the most two dimensional, unlikable, just there to kill things protagonists in video game history and turned him into a nuanced, interesting character you can empathize with. In the end, they even gave him that rarest of things, an actually compelling, good _redemption_ story. You see over the course of these two games his slow change from someone running and hiding from his past, just trying to keep his anger under control and get through life in the aftermath of his wife's death, to someone who learns to empathize with and care about others; first and foremost through his son, secondarily through Freya, and eventually this even reaches his enemies like Thor himself. He slowly comes to be able to express emotions other than his rage when he very much couldn't before, and eventually has to stop running from his past and being so afraid of repeating the events of Olympus that he fails to oppose a manipulative tyrant like Odin when he's needed. They actually turned Kratos of all characters into a _hero_ by the end of this, and _it works_. It doesn't feel forced or unnatural for his character, but like a wholly natural consequence of the story that leads up to it. Anytime prior to playing the first of these games, I would not have thought anyone could possibly do that. I was hoping they would drop Kratos entirely for a new main character whenever they moved the series forward after God of War 3, because I thought he was such an unlikable, irredeemable protagonist. I don't think I've ever been happier game devs didn't do what I wanted with a game.

And that's just Kratos, there's plenty of other great characters and stories in here. Atreus, Freya, Mimir, Brok and Sindri, the little bit we learn of Faye, even some of the main villains like Baldur and Thor - wow, did I not expect Thor's portrayal in this game to be what it wound up being, and it is only for the better. Even Odin, as much as he's a heartless bastard who will kill you or leave you to die the moment you stop being useful to him, you can get a little bit of sympathy for in his quest for knowledge, because even though he never says it directly, he dances around it enough that it's clear that it's because he's afraid of death himself. He knows he's prophesied to die in Ragnarok, but unlike mortals, nobody knows what happens to a god when they die, and that terrifies him. And in a way, much like the greek God of War games, it results in him bringing about his own prophesied death, since Kratos and the others never would have chosen to bring Ragnarok to fruition had he not done what he did. Had he ever learned to care about anyone but himself, none of this would have happened, and his entire world would be much less messed up to begin with. Quite an effective counterpoint for Kratos in the end, even if Thor is the more direct comparison.

Also, on a much more minor note, one of my favorite scenes in the whole game is the Norns scene. That is the most creative, brilliant, fun way to portray gods of fate that I've ever seen.

If I have any criticism to give here, it's mostly that Ragnarok itself could've been bigger. It's the final setpiece of the game, where you fight your way across the plains outside the walls of Asgard, then come to face Thor and Odin within, and story-wise, it's perfectly good, it's just that gameplay-wise, it's on the short side. For the title event that everything's been building up to, I just wish there was more there (even though the game is far from lacking in content by any measure). 

I'll be quite curious what happens with the series going forward. It feels like they've set things up for Atreus to take the reigns going forward, since he's going off in search of the remaining Giants' soul gems, and Kratos seems to have every reason to just settle down into a quiet retirement now, helping rebuild his new homeland in the aftermath of Asgard's destruction and all the damage caused by Fimbulwinter before it. That's fine - Kratos' story feels very much complete, and Atreus will make a fine new lead, and the setup gives him reason to wander far and wide, giving us an excuse to have games set in different mythologies, which is what everyone wants out of the series. However, there is the matter of the series' title. Atreus is many things, but a God of War he is definitely not, and the kind of titles customarily associated with Loki, like God of Trickery or Mischief, don't really fit him and aren't nearly as snappy as titles anyway. So, does his series become some spin-off with a wholly unrelated title? How do they make it clear to tie the two together? Or will Kratos continue to be the lead character somehow despite appearances to the contrary?

Honestly, after finishing it, part of me just wants to play it again. Or re-play the original and it back-to-back. Or even pull out my old copies of the original trilogy, and re-play all five back-to-back - though I'm probably not doing that since it'd surely take too long, and I've got other new games I'll be wanting to play coming. With a game this long, that doesn't happen often.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Restarted as a Tremere, because I can't be asked to deal with FPS mechanics, and I'm just not feeling Ventrue or Gangrel (maybe next run). Ah how I've missed this tutorial. And because none of the other histories interested me I decided to see what declaring yourself to be gay does. Hopefully it's more than change your Site's gender.

But yeah, I'm going to be putting a LOT more XP into disciplines. Thaumaturgy grants a couple of good ranged options, and the top two powers will be fun if costly. I wonder if they work on the final boss. If all goes well I should be able to beat the game without putting a single point into combat skills.

----------


## Cespenar

I'd also suggest the newer VtM: Swansong. There is no combat, and starts off a bit all over the place, but fleshes out real nicely. I'd even say that it gives the feeling of the setting almost as good as (if not better than) Bloodlines.

----------


## NRSASD

Currently playing Elder Kings 2, the total conversion mod for Crusader Kings 3 that replaces Medieval Europe and Asia with 2nd Era Interregnum Tamriel from the Elder scrolls. I'm currently playing as the last of the Ayleids in Blackmarsh, trying to recapture White Gold Tower and avenge our species' defeat. I've been trying to cross my Ayleids with the local Kothringi (silver skinned humans native to Blackmarsh), and have managed to produce some excitingly metallic elves and one deeply strange, violently purple elf. 

I'm also experiencing a very amusing bug, where every time I try to use magic to summon a Dremora, an immortal demon knight, I instead summon a Dunmer, aka a Dark Elf. Unfortunately for me and the recently conjured Dunmer, the game gives the very-mortal Dark Elf a Dremora age when conjured, leading to them spontaneously aging to death the moment they appear just like that scene in the Last Crusade.

Bugs notwithstanding, I am having a fantastic time with this game and highly, highly recommend.

----------


## WritersBlock

Decided to pick up System Shock Enhanced Edition since it was Under 2 dollars at Gog and I had not played it yet. (and it comes with the classic edition as well.) From what I have tried so far it was more than worth the price, so that is a plus, even if I have not progressed that far yet.

----------


## Bohandas

Been using the custom unit creator in Totally Accurate Battle Simulator to create a faction of units based on the Postal games

----------


## Zevox

Wahoo! It took several more days of trying and probably hundreds of deaths (I legitimately don't think that's an exaggeration), but I _finally_ beat Rodin in Bayonetta 3! Oh my gods, that was almost certainly the toughest boss fight I've ever played. Feels _so_ good to have conquered it. And what a reward too: a new weapon, which even lets me summon Rodin himself as its demon. Oh my, am I going to have fun using that as I resume going through the game on Infinite Climax.

----------


## warty goblin

Started messing around in the new Solasta DLC, using the adventure that came out in the previous DLC. It's definitely more Solasta, strange conversation system and everything, but it's absolutely top tier Solasta, which is to say it feels like a proper fantasy adventure. You worry about stuff like lighting and how to get from A to B and tracking dudes and elevation and occasionally spiders drop from the ceiling and there are proper traps and sometimes you just have to sneak around a fight and I love it.

This kind of stuff is what makes Solasta grab me in a way a lot of RPGs don't, even ones that are clearly better written (basically all of them*) or have deeper systems. Outside of the Divinity Original Sin games a whole ton of cRPGs are basically
1) walk into a room
   a) talk to person   b) kill person   c) talk to person, then kill person (major story content!)2) loot room3) enter new room, return to 1. 


The actual room, the actual place you are going through, does not matter. Sure the Mage's Guild looks different than the sewers, but they function exactly the same. It's not that Solasta has super deep systems for exploration and puzzles, but it has them, so you pay attention to, and regularly interact with, the world around you. This makes the combat richer - positioning matters! - it makes the exploration actually exist, it feels like going on an adventure. 


*Although there's a real benefit to Solasta's odd sort of non-writing, namely it spends very little time on it. You learn something about the plot, there's maybe a sort of joke, then it's right back to adventuring. This is substantially preferable for me than better written RPGs that unfortunately think they're also a book; worse, one of those late career books from a famous author who nobody can get to cut anything anymore. Saying your game contains like five books worth of text isn't a good brag, it's a sign you really, really need to hire the sort of editor who comes to work with a chainsaw and a bucket of chain lube.

----------


## Lord Raziere

I finally mustered up enough focus to get through all of Illium on Mass Effect 2 in one go. I think this made me capable of having a focus mode for my brain where I just....turn it on and focus on one thing to the exclusion of all else so I can get something done. I think its always been there but now I can access it intentionally. the viper sniper rifle is less damaging but has more shots. hm. think I prefer the sniper rifle before it and just.....headshotting everything with a single shot though.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Thanks to my wonderful girlfriends I now have a Swiitch, and while I can't afford the new Pokémons I've got a couple of games on it, including both mainline MegaTens.

I'll likely play through V first, just because I suspect it has a higher proportion of voice acted dialogue. But it's going to be fun to go back to demon negotiation and fusing after a while away. Fingers crossed for a defence stat!

----------


## Wookieetank

> I'll likely play through V first, just because I suspect it has a higher proportion of voice acted dialogue. But it's going to be fun to go back to demon negotiation and fusing after a while away. Fingers crossed for a defence stat!


I don't remember if V has a defense stat, but it wasn't rocket tag like IV was.  V is setup quite differently from previous ones (open world), but it worked great for me.

III is also fantastic, if long.  Never felt like a slog thankfully, but there is a crapton (metric) of game in that one.  Probably didn't help that I went for the hardest/most involved ending first.

I will say that V spoils the ending of III, being a direct sequel and all, just as a heads up.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Yeah, SMTV has Bit, which'll mean later battles will be more forgiving than in IV. On the other hand it also automatically kicks me back to the title screen when I die, which is annoying when it causes me to lose 15 minutes of progress because random battles legitimately drain your MP in this series. Oh, and pretty much all the demons I want to fuse mind into are several levels above me.

So it's pretty much what I signed up for! Plus it was nice that they went with a transmasc main character, it's been cis men for the last umpteen games.

----------


## Wookieetank

> So it's pretty much what I signed up for! Plus it was nice that they went with a transmasc main character, it's been cis men for the last umpteen games.


Another nice detail with V is that it focuses much more on multiple mythological groups, and fleshing them out to be more than just random enemies. IV: Apocalypse started to a bit with Krishna's group and the fairies, V has at least 5 (6?) different groups fleshed out and playing a more involved role.  Was a nice change from just having the various myth references be text based side info.

----------


## Cespenar

I remember seeing some negative comments on SMTV's writing/plot before. Is that true or is it nitpicking between other SMT games at that point?

----------


## Cygnia

Yes, the world may be ending in FF9, but my chocobo can fly now!  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Another nice detail with V is that it focuses much more on multiple mythological groups, and fleshing them out to be more than just random enemies. IV: Apocalypse started to a bit with Krishna's group and the fairies, V has at least 5 (6?) different groups fleshed out and playing a more involved role.  Was a nice change from just having the various myth references be text based side info.


MegaTen is definitely changing, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Somewhere between Strange Journey and IV we had the last outing of the original model, and the developers seem to be trying to build something new. Like what happened to Persona, but with a much less neat dividing line.




> I remember seeing some negative comments on SMTV's writing/plot before. Is that true or is it nitpicking between other SMT games at that point?


I'm nowhere near being fat enough in to know, but there's at least one friendly demon already who I want to punch in the face. Which might be a promising sign.

The setup is good, I just hope that the payoff doesn't disappoint.

----------


## Zevox

> MegaTen is definitely changing, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Somewhere between Strange Journey and IV we had the last outing of the original model, and the developers seem to be trying to build something new. Like what happened to Persona, but with a much less neat dividing line.


 :Small Confused:  Really? That's not something I'd heard. I've been sitting on my copy of SMT5 since it came out, in part because I feel like I kind of know what to expect from it, and just haven't been in the mood for that: old-school dungeon-crawling, combat-focused RPG with a relatively minimal story that ultimately boils down to the same Law/Chaos/Neutral endings as the rest of the series. Is that not the case?

----------


## Wookieetank

> Really? That's not something I'd heard. I've been sitting on my copy of SMT5 since it came out, in part because I feel like I kind of know what to expect from it, and just haven't been in the mood for that: old-school dungeon-crawling, combat-focused RPG with a relatively minimal story that ultimately boils down to the same Law/Chaos/Neutral endings as the rest of the series. Is that not the case?


So there's a couple of dungeons, but its mostly open world exploration (with a jump button! :D ).  Still has the combat focus, and Law/Chaos/Neutral breakdown.  As for minimal story, can't really say.  I'm a sucker for sidequests, and they fleshed things out nicely I felt.  Really the only SMT game I've played that felt light on story was III and even that one had a fair bit of intrigue going on.

Granted SMT:SJ is peak SMT for me, probably doesn't hurt that it was my introduction to the games.

----------


## Eldan

Got a code for a free month of XBOX live, so have been trying out Pentiment and Scorn. 

Scorn first: adventure game, H.R. Giger artstyle. Some nice designs, but once you get over the general "Huh, neat" of looking at very detailed Giger artwork in 3D, it's just... a rather easy puzzle game involving a lot of abandoned industrial machinery arranged in very clear order, except everything is made of meat. There's some combat, but that's pretty uninspired, too. Overall... a meh/10. 

Pentiment I haven't played enough to say much about it. Still early in the first act, feels tutorial-ish. It's the big passion project of Josh Sawyer, lead designer of Fallout 3, Neverwinter Nights 2, New Vegas and Pillar of Eternity, at Obsidian. It's an RPG where you are are an artist in early Renaissance Bavaria, with the big hook being that everything is drawn in the style of an illuminated manuscript. It's _nice_ so far, but quite slow paced. I've played a few hours and essentially nothing has happened yet, but I'm not _not_ liking it. I'll reserve judgement once I see where the plot goes.

----------


## Brookshw

Giving Triangle Strategy a whirl. 2 hours in, and not bad; very much a Final Fantasy Tactics successor.

----------


## Cespenar

> Pentiment I haven't played enough to say much about it. Still early in the first act, feels tutorial-ish. It's the big passion project of Josh Sawyer, lead designer of Fallout 3, Neverwinter Nights 2, New Vegas and Pillar of Eternity, at Obsidian. It's an RPG where you are are an artist in early Renaissance Bavaria, with the big hook being that everything is drawn in the style of an illuminated manuscript. It's _nice_ so far, but quite slow paced. I've played a few hours and essentially nothing has happened yet, but I'm not _not_ liking it. I'll reserve judgement once I see where the plot goes.


Sort of similar to my impressions even when just watching it. Cool style and promising background, but what is the game exactly?

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Sort of similar to my impressions even when just watching it. Cool style and promising background, but what is the game exactly?


It's a walky talky adventure game a little similar to stuff like Night in the Woods.

----------


## Cespenar

> It's a walky talky adventure game a little similar to stuff like Night in the Woods.


Huh. That's a bit weird coming from a big time dev, but at least it's clearer. Thanks. It doesn't show at all from the trailer.

----------


## Zevox

So, having finished up Bayonetta 3 on Infinite Climax difficulty, I did wind up going back to an old God of War game - though I decided to not bother pulling out my old PS2 for the first two and just booted up God of War 3 Remastered instead.

And wow, what a way to immediately hit myself with how far the series has come since the old days. Even ignoring the writing, which of course I knew was much worse back then, the gameplay feels almost clunky compared to the modern games. I mean, dodge on the right analog stick, really? Why did they ever think that was a good idea? Naturally, this also means you have no camera control, and oh boy do they like keeping the camera pretty zoomed out in this game - usually not enough to be a problem, but sometimes it does become one, and either way it means your view of things like enemy attack startup is much worse than it is in the modern games, making timing dodges or parries harder. And most of your attacks have little sense of impact and it's hard to tell when they're actually causing any hitstun on enemies. None of which is to say that the combat isn't good, mind you, it's still overall pretty satisfying, but it's one of those things where perspective from playing games where it's better makes you realize just how many little flaws it really has.

I'd also legitimately forgotten that you actually do get weapons other than the Blades of Chaos (or Blades of Exile in this one, I guess). Perhaps partially because the first such weapon you get in this game, the Claws of Hades, are basically just the Blades of Chaos with slightly different moves - still chain weapons he spins around him in big arcs or slams to the ground for big hits, just with somewhat changed animations compared to the Blades. The Nemean Cestus is at least different, a pair of big gauntlets shaped like lion heads, but not that much more interesting. The movesets for these feel really straightforward and dull compared to the newer games' options.

Game's a lot faster paced than I remembered too. Not in terms of gameplay, but in terms of how quickly you progress - I feel like I'm already halfway through after maybe five hours or so of play, having already killed Poseidon, Hades, Helios, Hermes, and Hercules. I know I've still got at least Hera to go before Zeus (and Hephaestus, if you count him, since he's not a boss fight IIRC), but can't recall who else, if anyone, remains. You really don't go long in between major encounters in this one.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Huh. That's a bit weird coming from a big time dev, but at least it's clearer. Thanks. It doesn't show at all from the trailer.


Yeah, it was a small team within Obsidian and they basically were only able to convince the bean counters to make it because Game Pass makes it much more likely people will take a chance on "Night in the Woods meets Name of the Rose".

----------


## Rynjin

> So, having finished up Bayonetta 3 on Infinite Climax difficulty, I did wind up going back to an old God of War game - though I decided to not bother pulling out my old PS2 for the first two and just booted up God of War 3 Remastered instead.
> 
> And wow, what a way to immediately hit myself with how far the series has come since the old days. Even ignoring the writing, which of course I knew was much worse back then, the gameplay feels almost clunky compared to the modern games. I mean, dodge on the right analog stick, really? Why did they ever think that was a good idea? Naturally, this also means you have no camera control, and oh boy do they like keeping the camera pretty zoomed out in this game - usually not enough to be a problem, but sometimes it does become one, and either way it means your view of things like enemy attack startup is much worse than it is in the modern games, making timing dodges or parries harder. And most of your attacks have little sense of impact and it's hard to tell when they're actually causing any hitstun on enemies. None of which is to say that the combat isn't good, mind you, it's still overall pretty satisfying, but it's one of those things where perspective from playing games where it's better makes you realize just how many little flaws it really has.
> 
> I'd also legitimately forgotten that you actually do get weapons other than the Blades of Chaos (or Blades of Exile in this one, I guess). Perhaps partially because the first such weapon you get in this game, the Claws of Hades, are basically just the Blades of Chaos with slightly different moves - still chain weapons he spins around him in big arcs or slams to the ground for big hits, just with somewhat changed animations compared to the Blades. The Nemean Cestus is at least different, a pair of big gauntlets shaped like lion heads, but not that much more interesting. The movesets for these feel really straightforward and dull compared to the newer games' options.
> 
> Game's a lot faster paced than I remembered too. Not in terms of gameplay, but in terms of how quickly you progress - I feel like I'm already halfway through after maybe five hours or so of play, having already killed Poseidon, Hades, Helios, Hermes, and Hercules. I know I've still got at least Hera to go before Zeus (and Hephaestus, if you count him, since he's not a boss fight IIRC), but can't recall who else, if anyone, remains. You really don't go long in between major encounters in this one.


TBF, in my opinion GoW 3 was actually the weakest entry of the original trilogy, both in terms of its clunky gameplay and the gratuitous violence of the cutscenes. It's a deeply unpleasant game in a way the first two aren't. I really enjoyed the first two when I played them for the first time a few years ago, but didn't get betond the Neptune "fight" of 3.

I actually think that was a pretty dark period for a lot of games though. There's a span from 2010 to 2014 where I barely liked any games.

----------


## Zevox

> TBF, in my opinion GoW 3 was actually the weakest entry of the original trilogy, both in terms of its clunky gameplay and the gratuitous violence of the cutscenes. It's a deeply unpleasant game in a way the first two aren't. I really enjoyed the first two when I played them for the first time a few years ago, but didn't get betond the Neptune "fight" of 3.
> 
> I actually think that was a pretty dark period for a lot of games though. There's a span from 2010 to 2014 where I barely liked any games.


Eh, it's been just as long since I played the first two as it has since I played the third (I played the series after 3 was already out, since I was a late-comer to Playstation systems), but I don't recall feeling like 3 was anything but an improvement on the first two myself. Gratuitous violence was always part of it - God of War isn't quite Mortal Kombat with that, but it's always been just one step behind. And it is clear that in 3 you're not supposed to feel good about the results of Kratos' rampage - he doesn't care at that point, but the player is meant to see how this is destroying the world around him and recognize it as a tragedy, rather than feel like he's accomplishing something good just because most of the gods he's killing are kind of selfish a-holes.

----------


## Morgaln

> Eh, it's been just as long since I played the first two as it has since I played the third (I played the series after 3 was already out, since I was a late-comer to Playstation systems), but I don't recall feeling like 3 was anything but an improvement on the first two myself. Gratuitous violence was always part of it - God of War isn't quite Mortal Kombat with that, but it's always been just one step behind. And it is clear that in 3 you're not supposed to feel good about the results of Kratos' rampage - he doesn't care at that point, but the player is meant to see how this is destroying the world around him and recognize it as a tragedy, rather than feel like he's accomplishing something good just because most of the gods he's killing are kind of selfish a-holes.


I think God of War 3 just feels more violent because the graphics are better and so you see it in more detail. Also, agreement on that we're not supposed to think Kratos is a good guy in the first three games. Pandora is there to show that he hasn't completely crossed the moral event horizon, but it's still just a rampage fueled by vengeance. While I haven't played God of War: Ragnarok yet, the new God of War very much feels like it is supposed to be the start of his redemption arc,and I expect Ragnarok finishes that.

----------


## Eldan

> It's a walky talky adventure game a little similar to stuff like Night in the Woods.


Hmm. I liked Night in the Woods a lot, it grabbed me almost immediately. It had a plot, it had good character, it had excellent writing. Pentiment is really taking its time, if it's getting there.

----------


## Rynjin

> Eh, it's been just as long since I played the first two as it has since I played the third (I played the series after 3 was already out, since I was a late-comer to Playstation systems), but I don't recall feeling like 3 was anything but an improvement on the first two myself. Gratuitous violence was always part of it - God of War isn't quite Mortal Kombat with that, but it's always been just one step behind. And it is clear that in 3 you're not supposed to feel good about the results of Kratos' rampage - he doesn't care at that point, but the player is meant to see how this is destroying the world around him and recognize it as a tragedy, rather than feel like he's accomplishing something good just because most of the gods he's killing are kind of selfish a-holes.





> I think God of War 3 just feels more violent because the graphics are better and so you see it in more detail. Also, agreement on that we're not supposed to think Kratos is a good guy in the first three games. Pandora is there to show that he hasn't completely crossed the moral event horizon, but it's still just a rampage fueled by vengeance. While I haven't played God of War: Ragnarok yet, the new God of War very much feels like it is supposed to be the start of his redemption arc, and I expect Ragnarok finishes that.


Agreed that you're not supposed to view Kratos as a hero, but in the first two games he is at least an antihero. He has clear, definable goals and wants to right wrongs that were committed against him specifically.

In 3 he's just a puppet for someone else's goals, which leaves a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to playing out the sheer sadistic glee he slaughters the gods with, even ones who've never done him wrong. He crosses the line in 3 to full villain, and not even one with an interesting goal I can kind of identify with.

----------


## Zevox

> I think God of War 3 just feels more violent because the graphics are better and so you see it in more detail. Also, agreement on that we're not supposed to think Kratos is a good guy in the first three games. Pandora is there to show that he hasn't completely crossed the moral event horizon, but it's still just a rampage fueled by vengeance. While I haven't played God of War: Ragnarok yet, the new God of War very much feels like it is supposed to be the start of his redemption arc,and I expect Ragnarok finishes that.


Pandora is another part of God of War 3 I'd forgotten about - probably because it's so badly handled. It's clear that they were hoping to use her to create some pathos and try to show Kratos as not completely irredeemable, but boy does it not work in that game at all. Seeing Kratos briefly care slightly about this little girl because she reminds him of his dead daughter just doesn't move the needle compared to literally everything else that's going on, and her lines about hope that they insist on repeating several times are just so awkward and out of place. 

I wrapped up God of War 3 last night (it's way shorter than I remembered, maybe 8 or so hours in total), and its ending in general is kind of a mess. Everything around Pandora and Athena is so clunky and clashes with the rest of the story in trying to create that pathos that Kratos so thoroughly does not deserve from everything else that went on. It's why I wanted him dropped as the main character and left for dead after that point - GoW3 truly does leave him seeming like an irredeemable monster. (And there will never be a good explanation for how he could survive the ending of 3, even if it did lead to much better things in the Norse games. Even assuming the giant sword through his chest somehow didn't kill him despite releasing Athena's power, which seems to intentionally parallel what happened when the other gods died, how could he go literally anywhere without being killed by the disasters that the other gods' deaths had unleashed?)

My take on God of War as a whole is that the original games were fun action games, but nothing more. The stories were bad and basically only served as an excuse to go around killing monsters and gods in gratuitous fashion. Fortunately, the new Norse ones are so much more than that - to the point that they actually make the old games a bit better in retrospect if only because they serve an important role as the background for where Kratos is at as a character during the Norse games. For as much as I criticize 3's handling of its ending above, you can see elements of it that carry over into the Norse games and are just handled _much_ better in those, to the point where they actually work. Those games are able to take the weak foundation that their predecessors created and make something astoundingly better out of it.




> Agreed that you're not supposed to view Kratos as a hero, but in the first two games he is at least an antihero. He has clear, definable goals and wants to right wrongs that were committed against him specifically.
> 
> In 3 he's just a puppet for someone else's goals, which leaves a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to playing out the sheer sadistic glee he slaughters the gods with, even ones who've never done him wrong. He crosses the line in 3 to full villain, and not even one with an interesting goal I can kind of identify with.


Well now that's not true. His alliance with the Titans in 3 is them mutually using each other because they happen to have basically the same goal even though neither side really cares about the other, but Kratos is very much the one who comes out on top of that. And his goal is exactly the same in 3 as it was in 2, it's just that in 3 you see the full consequences of him achieving it. If he's a pure villain in 3 (which I don't disagree with), he is so in 2 as well, at a minimum. And really the only difference in 1 is that him achieving his vengeance won't screw over the entire rest of the (Greek) world, since he's only after Ares, and none of the others care enough to try to stop him.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I forgot how much grinding this series expects. I'm at like level 13 with both Asparas and Mermaid, and I'm still struggling to beat Hydra. Which is a major issue as battles give out so little macca I can at best barely afford to cover the expenses of grinding.

I suppose I need to level Mermaid up to like level 14 so that her unique skill actually does decent damage per hit.

----------


## Mechalich

> I forgot how much grinding this series expects. I'm at like level 13 with both Asparas and Mermaid, and I'm still struggling to beat Hydra. Which is a major issue as battles give out so little macca I can at best barely afford to cover the expenses of grinding.
> 
> I suppose I need to level Mermaid up to like level 14 so that her unique skill actually does decent damage per hit.


Well, you can get the DLC that floods the zone with mitamas. That severely reduces the grinding.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Well, you can get the DLC that floods the zone with mitamas. That severely reduces the grinding.


The grinding isn't an issue, it's the need to restore MP. Which I've mitigated as much as possible, but it's not like I can just run into battles and spam Attack.

----------


## Mark Hall

Studiously ignoring Wrath of the Righteous (the post-Abyss army reset is BRUTAL), and been dabbling in Battletech and playing Quest for Glory. Doing another Thief run, but maybe I should start over and try pure fighter or mage.

For QfG2, I did the AGD remake, which had some really fun features, including a redesigned combat system. Fighting Jackalmen in that is FUN. They bounce around, and sometimes one will bounce close enough to require you to kick them in the face before they cut you from the side.

----------


## NeoVid

I beat Fuga: Melodies of Steel, and ended up not crying, but only because I managed to pull off the best ending by not losing a single character over the course of the game.  To put the difficulty of that in perspective, it's the sort of game where the boss theme sounds like this.  The game did an amazing job of keeping me on edge about what sort of horrible things would happen to this group of innocent kids stuck in the middle of a major war, gotta say.  I never once felt secure that there wasn't some sort of massive tragedy just around the corner, and if I hadn't played so well (and had RNG go my way at times) there certainly would have been.  

Early on, the game was kicking the crap out of me, but once I had a better idea what I was doing and more abilities unlocked, I found out Fuga has many ways to set up the most valuable strategy in a turn-based game: not letting the enemy get turns.  Not always possible, but I like when a video game lets me apply the most important lesson I learned early in my TTRPG days.  I'm definitely going to be playing the other games in the trilogy once they're out, and I'm interested enough in the setting that I'm looking into the other games in the same world... which led me to the discovery that this setting started with freakin' Tail Concerto, and is directly connected to Solatorobo.  I carefully avoided spoilers about Fuga itself when I was playing, but learning about the other games in the setting gave me info on the world that would have left some aspects of Fuga as completely out-of-left-field surprises.  The big one is that the setting's landscapes are levitating, something Fuga seemed to either expect you to know, or hit you with once it became plot relevant.

But honestly, that's the closest thing I have to a complaint about the game.  The game mechanics were well-balanced and fun once I stopped sucking, the story grabbed me, and the only hesitation I had was due to getting too attached to the characters.  I'm not sure if I'll run a New Game+ since I don't know if I could handle doing worse just to see things turn out differently.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Went back to my Tremere playthrough of Bloodlines, got up to the Sabbat Warehouse mission, and my god is Thaumaturgy amazing. Fortitude might be better than Blood Shield, but it also costs a lot more BP over the course of a map, and Blood Strike keeps the old Blood Pool topped up if you let it. Coupled with Blood Purge and a bit of the old slice and dice for tougher enemies and I left the map with just as much blood as when I entered.

I have to admit though that the early game really isn't fair to firearms characters. You'll have two guns, but only one that you can actually buy ammunition for, meanwhile melee builds get a free knife in one of the required missions and can pick up a sweet short sword from an optional one. Going firearms in Santa Monica is like using only your fists or the tire iron for melee.

So now it's onto Downtown, and trying to convince Strauss to let me into the Pyramid...

----------


## Wookieetank

> The grinding isn't an issue, it's the need to restore MP. Which I've mitigated as much as possible, but it's not like I can just run into battles and spam Attack.


One thing I tend to forget about is that you can negotiate with demons for macca, but when I don't forget I can rake in macca pretty easily with it.  I also tend to not use a lot of items, so I sell them off pretty frequently, particularly early on to get past early game hell. (There's also the option of dipping the difficulty to easy and spamming attack in battles to build up a bank, but that feels a bit cheesy).  On the upside, at least your macca isn't being drained every step you take while having demons in your party like in Soul Hackers 1 *shudder*

The bosses do not pull their punches in this game though, only bosses I didn't have to fight multiple times were in the final stretch, but that's because I'd hit max level from side questing.

----------


## Mark Hall

Been farting around, avoiding Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous. Played through Quest for Glory 1-3, and most of 4, but then got to a place where I couldn't activate the conversation necessary to turn the vampire into a little girl, and got tired of it. Started to replay a little, going for a straight fighter (who would add skills as he went along... pick up Stealth when going to 2, learn Magic and Climbing from the Djinn, pick up Lock Picking going into 3, acrobatics going into 4), but got tired of it, so I picked up Heroine's Quest: Herald of Ragnarok... and am having a lot more fun than last time I tried it. I've gotten better at the combat (can usually beat a varg or bandit, at least, if I don't start too injured/tired), but am taking my time on Chapter 2.

----------


## AlanBruce

Bought this blast from the past for an incredibly low price last night: Dead Island.

Its a first person beat em up game where you butcher zombies in a luxury resorts in the South Pacific. The graphics seem, of course, dated. The game has bugs everywhere, just as it was on release. But they sure nailed the sound, look and feel of slicing/burning/hammering a zombie to a bloody sun soaked pulp.

----------


## warty goblin

The Sister of Battle DLC for Wargammer 40000:  Inquistor: Martyr: Endless Subtitle dropped yesterday, so I messed around with that a bit.

It's definitely more Martyr, or more accurately you can now play Martyr as a combat nun with a rocket space machine gun. This is awesome. Amen. 

One thing that struck me is Neocore did something cool with the combat in the game: Its actually fun. Not super deep or complicated tactically, but there's enough stuff going on that it doesn't merge into the numbers catatonia that a lot of Diablo type games do.

----------


## GloatingSwine

I might get the Sororita DLC for Inquisitor. At least in the early game the heavy flamer is pretty good, and if the Sisters of Battle like anything it's things being on fire in the name of the Emperor.

----------


## Cespenar

> One thing that struck me is Neocore did something cool with the combat in the game: Its actually fun. Not super deep or complicated tactically, but there's enough stuff going on that it doesn't merge into the numbers catatonia that a lot of Diablo type games do.


Is it even a diablolike if you don't have MS Excel up in the background?

----------


## IthilanorStPete

I picked up Inquisitor yesterday after reading about it on this thread, going to try it out; I've been really wanting a game to play that doesn't take as much mental commitment (and spreadsheets) as the Paradox games, Satisfactory, or Factorio.

----------


## Wookieetank

> I picked up Inquisitor yesterday after reading about it on this thread, going to try it out; I've been really wanting a game to play that doesn't take as much mental commitment (and spreadsheets) as the Paradox games, Satisfactory, or Factorio.


Guess I'm playing Satisfactory and Factorio wrong then XD.  Granted I'm usually dealing with a never ending string of shortages where I fix one and another occurs in something else, so there might be something to this spreadsheet business...

----------


## IthilanorStPete

> Guess I'm playing Satisfactory and Factorio wrong then XD.  Granted I'm usually dealing with a never ending string of shortages where I fix one and another occurs in something else, so there might be something to this spreadsheet business...


I was half-joking about the spreadsheets part, though I do usually use pretty extensive notes, and I've used some online calculators for Factorio production ratios before. It's more the mental commitment/energy that matters; after a day of coding for work, I usually like to unwind with something a bit simpler.

EDIT: I've also had the same experience of jumping between fixing different shortages/bottlenecks. In my longest-lasting Factorio game, that was somewhat smoothed out once I got a decent-sized main bus up and running, but usually it's a balance between proactive improvements and troubleshooting.

----------


## Wookieetank

> It's more the mental commitment/energy that matters; after a day of coding for work, I usually like to unwind with something a bit simpler.


I get this, my simple method is: are my conveyor belts full? No = add more production of non-full belt items. Yes = expand base while looking for new resources/clearing out bugs.





> EDIT: I've also had the same experience of jumping between fixing different shortages/bottlenecks. In my longest-lasting Factorio game, that was somewhat smoothed out once I got a decent-sized main bus up and running, but usually it's a balance between proactive improvements and troubleshooting.


I have a love/hate relationship with MBs.  They're straightforward, efficient and easy to plan around, but boy are they boring.  Much as I'm a big fan of spaghetti factories, all my time in online games has me conditioned for MB as the way to go ><

----------


## Mark Hall

Recently, having embraced peaceful mode in Minecraft, I've been doing a lot of simple farming, then pumping my local farmers for some reason. Just nice and relaxing.

The OTHER thing I'll do, since my local fletcher wants flint, is take 3-4 full stacks of gravel, turn them into a single stack 192-256 blocks high, and burn through a couple stone shovels getting to the ground, gathering flint as I go. I no doubt miss some things, but getting up to 256 blocks above village level is really kinda cool.

----------


## warty goblin

> I picked up Inquisitor yesterday after reading about it on this thread, going to try it out; I've been really wanting a game to play that doesn't take as much mental commitment (and spreadsheets) as the Paradox games, Satisfactory, or Factorio.


Inquisitor is a good time, though you have to have a certain tolerance for jank. It's not bad the game doesn't work jank, more like a lack of total smoothness, and a certain illegibility in some of the mechanics. 

What really works though is the basic combat. My murder-nun is mostly using a bolter, because this game gets bolters super right. Like all weapons, the bolter gets 4 skills:

1) fairly slow rate of fire high accuracy/damage shots on LMB.

2) full auto spray and pray on RMB. Less damage per shot, but very nice for target rich environments. 

3) aimed shot on 1. Pressing this pops up a little spinning wheel on the target, release at the right time to you shoot them in the head, torso etc. Headshotting heretics is great.

4) full auto AoE grenade launcher, effectively. Just grinds hordes into salsa with a very enjoyable WHUMP WHUMP WHUMP sound.

Truly a rocket machine gun for all seasons. 

If you go with a chainsword, you can just hold a button to continually saw a dude.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Stop it, you're making me want to pick up the DLC!

Maybe next time it's on sale...

----------


## Saambell

Had picked up the first of the Atelier Ryza games on sale a long while back, finally got around to playing it once Azur Lane started its collaboration event to promote the third Atelier Ryza game. Pretty fun so far, but I'm still super early game. The alchemy mechanics are straightforward, once you learn what to read for effects, and the combat is quick, at least early game, finding a nice mix between controlling only one of the party, but being able to switch who you control at will. Having the resource you need to use skills tied to basic attacks means you cant just spam skills, but also never run out of it either, though resetting each battle is tricky, but getting the jump on foes gives you a starting pool. I spend way too much time just running around grabbing every rock and plant I can see, as the core of the game is built on turning those things into useful resources. Still no clue what the overall plot will be, as I'm still on the "small village girl learns alchemy" part, no sign yet of anything bigger. But my time playing it has been eaten by Pokemon. Having multiplayer has been super nice, so I have been playing through the game with my BF, and its a lot more fun having someone beside me helping look for stuff and making the raids so much quicker and easier. Trading our starters also added a nice flare to the game.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Well I caved, got the DLC, and rolled up a Sister Dominion. Because who needs melee combat when you can march in with bolter and flamer? Only played the first two missions so far, but...

**** yeah, I have a sexy RP accent! It's also just great fun to use the Bolter, it has a big clip combined with full auto and grenade skills. It certainly mows through the basic enemies better than my Assassin's shotgun did. As to the flamer it's not as fun, but still incredibly useful when melee enemies try to swarm you. I'm currently putting my skill points into the Ranged Combat tree, but I'm sure I'll branch out to Acts of Faith and Warfare soon 

So yeah, the basic combat is really fun. It honestly helps that because skills are tied to weapons you don't have to go several levels to have more than two. Sure there's a bit of jank, and it suffers from trying to play a comedy setting straight. But it's fun.

----------


## Hagashager

Recently got back into Master of Magic.

I tried Caster of Magic, but I find it less an improvement and more an alteration of the formula to the point of feeling like a different game.  

Everyone on Realms Beyond have tons of strategies and all insist MoM is broken, but I'm finding it pretty tough to actually get any exploits in place.  I got absolutely roflstomped by Tauron in my last game 25 urns in.

----------


## The Glyphstone

> So yeah, the basic combat is really fun. It honestly helps that because skills are tied to weapons you don't have to go several levels to have more than two. Sure there's a bit of jank, and it suffers from trying to play a comedy setting straight. But it's fun.


Isnt half the fun of the setting that its ridiculously over-the-top nature is played dead serious, like any good satire?

----------


## warty goblin

> Everyone on Realms Beyond have tons of strategies and all insist MoM is broken, but I'm finding it pretty tough to actually get any exploits in place.  I got absolutely roflstomped by Tauron in my last game 25 urns in.


The hardcore fan base for a game nearly always thinks its broken. At this point I more or less use "every member of the community has played like 5000+ hours and whines constantly about the game" as a decent litmus test for being the hardcore fan base.

This would be one reason why I try to avoid being a fan of things.




> Isnt half the fun of the setting that its ridiculously over-the-top nature is played dead serious, like any good satire?


 I mean tongue clearly in cheek can absolutely work too, just see the (good) Saint's Row games. But it really wouldn't work for WH40k stuff in general, still least something as story minimal as a Diablo clone.

Plus, I kinda like the air of slight menace and creepiness that Martyr manages to cultivate, particularly aboard the the titular ship. It isn't very creepy or menacing because you face-murder everything nasty you meet at a rate of like 5 dudes a second, but for what it is, it's relatively effective.

----------


## tyckspoon

> Recently got back into Master of Magic.
> 
> I tried Caster of Magic, but I find it less an improvement and more an alteration of the formula to the point of feeling like a different game.  
> 
> Everyone on Realms Beyond have tons of strategies and all insist MoM is broken, but I'm finding it pretty tough to actually get any exploits in place.  I got absolutely roflstomped by Tauron in my last game 25 urns in.


There are some of the base modifications in Caster of Magic I prefer (advanced capital start, getting some starting settlers, and making the base move value 2 instead of 1 I consider all generally positive in reducing the tedium of the 'click end turn and wait' period of the start of the game .. although that last causes some issues in devaluing ranged units as well), but yeah, it has a distinct desired gameplay/style; the maintainer of the mod/defacto developer of it seems to believe that the game doesn't really start or isn't fun until you have full stacks of summoned units and/or end-tier recruited units sporting piles of unit buffs, and designed the mod to accelerate and encourage that state. It makes anything short of the halberdier tier of units effectively pointless, especially because the neutral lairs are almost all a lot more dangerous than base game so you -need- that pile of summoned stuff and/or much higher level units just to do the basic clearing.

The Community Mod is a worthwhile in-between; has a lot of bugfixes for stuff that just flat out doesn't work as intended in the base game and a much lighter hand in balancing or adjusting some items that were pretty broadly agreed on to be either drastically over or under the power curve without completely adjusting the progression of the game.

..and yeah, the game is broken in sooooooo many ways, but there's a huge difference between early, mid, and late game exploits. Like one or two squads of Shadow Demons can cheese 80% of fights, but you still have to know how to keep the AI off your back long enough to research + summon them.

----------


## Zevox

I just re-played Kena: Bridge of Spirits, because the new God of War kind of reminded me of it - very similar overall gameplay style, except that God of War's combat and puzzles are more fleshed out, while Kena has some light platforming elements that God of War doesn't. Which is not a connection I made at the time Kena came out, honestly. I'm just not used to thinking of God of War as an action-adventure of this sort rather than just an action series, even years after the 2018 game made that shift.

Anyway, it's also a complement to Kena that while its combat isn't as strong as God of War's, it's not honestly that far off. There's a good variety of options for you, and a good amount of varied enemies (for such a short game, at least). Movement and attacking feels nice and snappy for the most part - although you can't cancel attacks, so they are committal. Light attacks are so fast that that almost doesn't matter though. Enemy designs are quite fun to engage with, including weak points, both obvious and not, on some that you can shoot with her bow to either deal significant damage and earn courage (her special move meter) or stun them. The boss fights in particular are really well done - I remember being surprised at how good they were the first time through, and I'm still very happy with them the second time through. 

They've also added a couple of things to the game (for free!) since I played it last year - alternate costumes for Kena, a new system of "charms" that can grant additional bonuses to her, and a set of challenges called Trials that unlock as she completes each area. All good stuff. The costumes are basically just the outfits that other characters in the game wear re-sized to fit Kena, plus a recolor of them that you unlock for completing all of the bonus objectives in the Trials, but still nice to have. The charms give some interesting new options, although they could have made it clearer that only one of them can be active at a time, I honestly thought each one that I unlocked was active until quite late in the game. And the Trials are pretty fun, with later ones (and even earlier combat ones) being genuinely challenging, and bonus objectives making them more interesting while offering some minor extra rewards (mostly cosmetics, but also some charms). Although the very last Trial is... oof. A fight with three of the late-game bosses - not all at once, but two at a time, with the third spawning in once you kill one of the first two. Each one of which is a not insignificant threat even if you've fought them before and know the basic method of beating them. Not sure if I'm going to beat that one, honestly. Took me quite a few tries just to down one of the first two, and the third one that spawns in when it happens is a summoner on top of his other abilities, so things get even harder once he shows up.

Even if I don't do that though, I'm glad I revisited it. It's just a good, solid game, and of genre that we don't see too often anymore. Would be nice if God of War's success could help revitalize action-adventures of this sort, though I don't think I'm holding my breath on it.

----------


## Zombimode

Finished the Lost Valley campaign of *Solasta* yesterday.

Sadly, compared to the main campaign it was a let down. My issues:
Map/level design: for me this was Solastas biggest strength. In Lost Valley however the locations are very horizontal, not very interesting to explore, too "mundane" in feel. This also bleeds into the encounter design:Combat encounter design: the quality of Solastas combat gameplay heavily depends on the quality of the design of the individual encounter. Most important aspects are the combat arena and then a fitting enemy composition. The main game did a pretty solid job on this. Lost Valley does not. As the level design is lacking so are the combat arenas. The enemy composition is often ill-fitting an boring. A heavy reliance of dumb melee enemies. A novel thing are the "Counterspell Wars" - I don't remember those to be a thing in the main game.General lack of writing and color: being an RPG the game has a setting, characters, plotlines, quests. The base setup is actually quite interesting. But everything is so underdeveloped in terms of writing and dialogue nothing really takes off. The whole thing comes of as goofy.The player parties memory loss to their own actions and general incompetence in execution of the "open" narrative: there are two locations on the map that the party had to "discover" multiple times, or uncovering information the party already has. In general the party is completely oblivious to everything that happens in a different questline. My guess is that the dev expected players to pick one faction early and than stick with it exclusively. I must have broken the games flags in the end as I only got three ending slides and all of them were wrong.Overall way too easy.

In general there is lack of effort, care and competence permeating through the game.
... it may sound odd, but sometimes I got the feeling the Lost Valley was the product of machine learning.

It's not all bad or mediocre. There are good parts here and there, and it's clear that in order to create the campaign some real work had to be done. It's a shame that this work is being dragged down by the lack of effort in other areas.

I made use of two of the new classes of the latest DLC.
The 5e Bard is pretty rubbish at being a bard, but otherwise a good and flexible spellcaster. The ability to pick spells from any list is pretty fun (one of my picks was Bless so that my bard could actually buff...).
The Warlock turned out without of doubt to be my favorite class. If I ever get forced to play an actual game of 5e (at gunpoint, otherwise I don't see that happening), Warlock will definitely my pick.
I also had a dragonborn paladin, but the dragonborn breath weapon is so incredibad that you pick the race (oh sorry, I meant _ancestry_...  :Small Sigh: ) for the aesthetics not the ability.

I had corona this week so playing a mediocre not too challenging game that still provided some entertainment during my waking hours was not the worst way to pass the time.

I've pretty much recovered by now and are craving for something more serious, more immersive. But I have no game in mind that would suffice this need  :Small Annoyed:

----------


## Cygnia

Trying to figure out the best approach to dealing with the Ozma fight for FF9 (I completed the Friendly Monsters quest already)...

----------


## DaedalusMkV

> Trying to figure out the best approach to dealing with the Ozma fight for FF9 (I completed the Friendly Monsters quest already)...


The easy answer is that there is no problem in FF9 that cannot be solved by applying Regen to your entire party and then selecting your moves solely by priority of whatever has the longest animation. Because Regen healing is applied in real-time but the effect duration is measured in turns, as long as your animations take long enough to complete you will fully heal all damage dealt by enemy attacks before they're able to launch another one, even Ozma. You'll also want to make sure that at most one character in your active party has a level divisible by 5, that at least one party member has a level divisible by 4, and that your physical attackers are immune to Blind and Mini and your magical attackers are immune to Confuse and Berserk. Stick Reflect on it once it hits half health (otherwise it'll heal itself for ludicrous sums) and you're pretty much good to go (if magic attacks are an important part of your strategy you'll need to have Reflect on at least one of your party members to bounce onto it. This is a good idea anyways, so shouldn't be considered a drawback. Never Reflect the entire party against Ozma, but having it active on one or two members will ease the pressure on you to fix status effects and do a small but steady stream of extra damage to Ozma from reflected spells). 

If the above is all set up correctly, your characters have 9999 HP and your damage output is reasonably high you should have no difficulty winning. Just use items or magic to cure debuffs and/or death as they come, queue up long animations and you're good. There's some other weird quirks to Ozma, like it being preferable to queue up all your characters' actions while it's in the middle of an attack animation, but you don't need to be flawless to win as long as your setup is good... Well, unless you get hideously unlucky. Auto-life is helpful to deal with bad luck, but Ozma is theoretically capable of one-shotting the entire party in back-to-back turns, guaranteeing a loss. The odds are a million to one against, if not worse, but I know at least one poor unfortunate soul it's happened to.

Frankly, the FF7-9 superbosses are all kind of marked by similar issues, in that they're nearly impossible by playing 'properly' but easily trivialized if you know the minutiae of the game well enough (or, in the case of 7, have figured out how to abuse Counter materia to snap the entire game in half). Ozma is perhaps the worst of the lot, considering how many ways it breaks the established expectations of FF9 (Ozma is an input-reading, ATB-ignoring, clairvoyant cheater), but it's still easy if you do a bit of preparation before going in.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Isnt half the fun of the setting that its ridiculously over-the-top nature is played dead serious, like any good satire?


The thing is, Martyr so far doesn't feel that over the top. It's grim,and gritty, but it hasn't quite dived into the parts of the setting that are actually funny.

Also, I'm struggling to find any weapons that leave me with free slots to equip Acts of Faith. Which are the entire point of playing a SoB. Maybe it was wrong to go with the ranged combat option at the beginning, but considering that the Bolter's aimed shot just isn't working for me I'd love to be able to switch out one of my weapon skills. (Although looking online, apparently equipping a censer will give me a slot?)

----------


## IthilanorStPete

I played Martyr for a bit, but it didn't quite grab me. Playing on mouse and keyboard, the controls didn't feel great, felt a little too clunky to move around, fight, and use my skills. Added to that, its style of leveling/items adding a bunch of incremental small percentage increases isn't really up my alley.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I played Martyr for a bit, but it didn't quite grab me. Playing on mouse and keyboard, the controls didn't feel great, felt a little too clunky to move around, fight, and use my skills. Added to that, its style of leveling/items adding a bunch of incremental small percentage increases isn't really up my alley.


It's a very Diablo setup, which has sadly been ruined recently by live service grindathons. Honestly I could do without the equipment grind, but I can deal with shuffling my stuff every couple of missions if I have to. The worst part is having to sell a ton of junk after every mission, and that's mostly because there's rarely anything worth buying.

It's true of a lot of RPGs, but the game would probably be better with less equipment slots and fewer loot drops. I'd honest rather just select two weapons and a set of armour before a mission, with levels unlocking more options. Sure, inopportune loot drops could make me switch weapons more than I would otherwise, but I don't think any of the choices are better than just using the highest level Bolter I've picked up. Sure the new SoB specific weapon types let me equip more Acts of Faith, and flamers and plasma guns have their uses, but bolters on full auto chew through crowds and big guys with ease. Plus they just feel statisfying, with their loud fire sounds and good stagger 

Also I've not played with mouse+keyboard, but it feels like the game was designed for a controller. Movement is completely find with analog sticks, and while targeting specific enemies is difficult with the relatively chaotic combat it's never felt important to. Kill whoever I can, stay as far out of melee range as possible, and keep an eye on my health, that's how the game seems to work.

I was going to say the game felt a bit easy, but getting stuck into the story and turning the difficulty up to Hard solved that. Honestly my biggest complaint is that levels come quick but I still have no idea as to how to earn stat points.

----------


## Zombimode

Picked up *Prey*. That was a good choice, as far as I can tell (still effing around in the Lobby).

Strong world design - as expected. Looks like Dishonored - as expected  :Small Big Grin:  But that is a good thing.

A strong art direction, attention to detail and a strong vision: this is what creates worlds. This is what Arkane is good at. And this is what I'm mostly searching for in games.


Previously I had refrained from buying Prey because several reviewers kept mentioning the "endless respawning of enemies". In most cases I really dislike enemy respawn so I decided that Prey wasn't for me.

Turns out I should be more critical when evaluating information from game reviews. There is no respawing of enemies in Prey. Some people are just unable to differentiate between respawing and new enemies appearing.

So for people who wonder about that: in Prey if you kill an enemy it will stay dead. It will never return. New enemies might appear in the same general area. They do so independently whether or not the original enemy was killed. They do so on specific instances of story progression. That also means there is a fixed number of enemies in the game.

----------


## MCerberus

My sister got me the new wow expansion and time as an early birthday gift (yah, I know. but I'm not going to waste it).

And early on I have never seen a story so at war with its own tone. It wants to be a melancholy thing, looking back at the lore and the last expansions with some sadness for what was lost. There's an old dragon who returning to his childhood home is overcome with grief for someone he had to kill. There's a dragonmaw orc near the end of his life that think's he's past forgiveness. You ask the guards of the pool where they house the black dragon eggs (there are no more black dragons*) why they're there and they answer 'hope'. The first NPC they give a personality to dies in a heroic sacrifice. They're going for a downer here. A low point you have to-

Oh no they added the comedy bits, put the mechanic that's a direct reference to a book series at just the wrong moment, and the bad guy's a kaiju that screams and says the good guys have to suffer first. They were just reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal close to creating a starting point for a good mmo story, but then all the baggage of wow crept in.

----------


## Cespenar

> Recently got back into Master of Magic.
> 
> I tried Caster of Magic, but I find it less an improvement and more an alteration of the formula to the point of feeling like a different game.  
> 
> Everyone on Realms Beyond have tons of strategies and all insist MoM is broken, but I'm finding it pretty tough to actually get any exploits in place.  I got absolutely roflstomped by Tauron in my last game 25 urns in.


Honestly, the game is more fun without the exploits anyway, so you don't need to listen to the 5000 hour grognards. Feel free to turn the difficulty down if you're getting roflstomped.

I find CoM to be a net positive in general, except for the over the top ruin guardians.

----------


## AlanBruce

Just finished playing The Callisto Protocol on console.

Visually, its breathtaking. The team definitely poured heart & soul into creating a gripping atmosphere with the world from an aesthetic point of view. The characters are very well designed and it is becoming harder and harder to tell them apart from an actual movie.

Sadly, thats all the good stuff I can say about it. The game isnt scary. Combat is incredibly aggravating, especially when there is survival horror in name, but youre forced to melee enemies and the protagonist is frustratingly clunky, whereas your enemies are fast and can one shot you. One on one fights are doable, but rarely do you get that luxury. Typically, its two or more, with little to no lighting and a non existent lock on feature. 

Theres a story, but its not that interesting. A pity too, since its the same team that gave us Dead Space so many years ago.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Theres a story, but its not that interesting. A pity too, since its the same team that gave us Dead Space so many years ago.


IIRC, Schofield is the original director; Whitfield, the co-director, was previously narrative director for things like COD?

The writer isn't from DS; he's ex-movie, doing horror genre like SAW.

I think this is an entirely new creative team?

----------


## AlanBruce

> IIRC, Schofield is the original director; Whitfield, the co-director, was previously narrative director for things like COD?
> 
> The writer isn't from DS; he's ex-movie, doing horror genre like SAW.
> 
> I think this is an entirely new creative team?


I knew Schofield, who co-created Dead Space, was involved in Callisto. In fact, he pitched Callistos plot to EA back in 2008, but they refused to fund that game. They were, however, interested in the sci-fi horror part. And so, Dead Space came to be.

Callistos team may be different from Dead Spaces, but the creative minds are the same, at least to my understanding.

----------


## Spore

This might be the wrong thread about it, but I have read about Disco Elysium being stolen from its creators by a big studio and a loophole? Is anyone in the know that can give me a quick rundown? I don't want to support such a caper, but the game is being hailed as the savior of wRPGs so I guess it is worth a look?

----------


## Batcathat

> This might be the wrong thread about it, but I have read about Disco Elysium being stolen from its creators by a big studio and a loophole? Is anyone in the know that can give me a quick rundown? I don't want to support such a caper, but the game is being hailed as the savior of wRPGs so I guess it is worth a look?


I haven't looked into it that much, but from what I understand some of the people behind the game have left the developer and claims to have been forced out or something along those lines. Whether or not that qualifies as what you're talking about is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

----------


## GloatingSwine

The CEO engaged in some Shenanigans to get control over the studio and IP and forced out some of the original creatives. 

There's a lawsuit going on right now, but it's not one my usual lawblog sources are following (because it'll be in Estonian).

----------


## Eldan

> This might be the wrong thread about it, but I have read about Disco Elysium being stolen from its creators by a big studio and a loophole? Is anyone in the know that can give me a quick rundown? I don't want to support such a caper, but the game is being hailed as the savior of wRPGs so I guess it is worth a look?


I'm a mod on the DE reddit, so yeah, I know more than a bit about it.

The entire thing is complicated and kind of a clustereff on many levels. Information is also hard to get, because a lot of it is only available in Estonian. THere's also courts in several countries involved by now and several levels of lawsuits about different things by different people. 

Za/um started as an artists collective that was moderately successful in Estonia. At some point, three of the members, Helen Hindpere, Robert Kurvitz and Alexander Rostov, got the idea that they should make a video game. They had no previous technical experience, but managed to get funding from some moderately shady Estonian businessmen, one of which had previously been convicted of fraud. With this, they managed to get the game out.

At some point, Za/um game studios was spun off from the Za/um artists collective. The original founders and a few other artists got some of the stock, and the businessmen got the majority. The studio moved to the UK. At this point, the game became an international hit and the problems started. 

The artists clashed massively with the business section of the game studio. They are actual, serious intellectual communists and didn't like where the studio was going one bit. On the other hand, the studio owners, as well as more than a few employees also said that the creatives were seriously toxic to worth with, and it's hard to entirely discount all of it. There's drugs, alcoholism, serious mental illness and potentially sexual harassment involved, too. At some point, the financiers managed to get the creative team fired from the studio.

Now the lawsuits start. There's several levels involved: there's potential financial fraud about some shady dealings, where apparently, stock in the studio was bought _with_ money belonging to the studio, which is potentially illegal. And multiple shell companies belonging to the same people buying stuff off each other. Apparently there was a case where an asset was sold for one dollar by shell company A to shell company B, then bought back for a million, which also raised allegations of money laundering. There's the question of IP rights, and how much belongs to the artists collective, how much to the original writers (the setting is their 20 RPG campaign and they have the written materials, including a novel, to prove it), and how much to the game studio. Another ongoing lawsuit. There's lawsuits about employment conditions and whether it was fair to fire the original creatives over their behaviour. And finally, there's at least one lawsuit between the financiers, where the studio's first financier is suing _other_ financiers over several million he claims were stolen from him.

Now, where the fans got involved was mostly when Disco Elysium 2 was announced and fans began to notice several things: almost none of the original names were on it. None of the writers, none of the composers, none of the concept artists or painters. The original game was in large part about mental illness and the general feeling of malaise and economic collapse in an analogy of post-communist Eastern Europe, through the lense of a political murder investigation in a slum. The head writers had been changed from eastern european artists who lived through the collapse of the eastern block to young harvard graduates, which didn't sit well with the fans at all, in a game that mostly stood out by the quality of its writings. There's more bad signs, though. There was also a massive push to make more merchandise for the game. And there were actual job announcements by the company in the UK, looking for, and I'm not kidding, "Live Service Monetization specialists". For a very old fashioned single player RPG. 

The current sitation is complicted. Multiple lawsuits in the UK and Estonia are ongoing. The finances of the studio have been frozen in both countries, as have any stock transfers. At least one of the original founders seems to be in a mental health institution, permanently, since he was kicked off "his baby". But we can't really get a complete picture, since everyone is either communicating in Estonian and/or under non-disclosure because of ongoing legal process. There are some Estonians on the reddit who occasionally translate local papers about the case. (It seems to be big there. The artists were at least semi-famous nationally before making the game, including occasionally being on radio and TV, and it seems the national press and local population _very much_ enjoyed having the international game of the year and often game of the decade on many lists made in their country.)

It is also, coincidentally, an IP being killed by the thing it was _about_, in gloriously ironic fashion, which also drives the fan interest. Like, this is a game that contains characters talking about how "captialism subsumes criticism of the capitalist system into itself. Even those who criticize capitalism end up reinforcing it." There's an entire a long side quest about how visionary creative endeavours fail because of capitalim.

----------


## Eldan

Oh, and, while I'm entirely biased of course, it's currently only 10 bucks on steam. For what I (and quite a few other people) consider one of the best games ever made, I'd say it's worth it. At least if you have a tolerance for politics, being an abject failure of a human being and a lot of text. (The text is now voiced).

----------


## Batcathat

> Oh, and, while I'm entirely biased of course, it's currently only 10 bucks on steam. For what I (and quite a few other people) consider one of the best games ever made, I'd say it's worth it. At least if you have a tolerance for politics, being an abject failure of a human being and a lot of text. (The text is now voiced).


Absolutely agree, and aside from all of that it's also really funny (I think a lot of people are scared off by the idea of a game that leans so heavily into politics, philosophy and psychology but its sense of humor balances it out quite nicely).

----------


## Eldan

Also, and this is difficult to explain concisely, it's really good at roleplaying. Unlike a lot of other games, it will let you _really_ lean into whatever weird idea you get into your head, and when you fail a check, it _really_ commits to making that feel like a failure. This is a game where you can critically fail dialogue checks (often) and it feels both awkward and hilarious. Oh no, I failed a rhethoric check and now my character is ranting at the cashier extensively.

----------


## Sermil

> Also, and this is difficult to explain concisely, it's really good at roleplaying. Unlike a lot of other games, it will let you _really_ lean into whatever weird idea you get into your head, and when you fail a check, it _really_ commits to making that feel like a failure. This is a game where you can critically fail dialogue checks (often) and it feels both awkward and hilarious. Oh no, I failed a rhethoric check and now my character is ranting at the cashier extensively.


Me: I just want to answer the question like a normal human being would.
Disco Elysium: Ha, ha, no; for the Detective that's a legendary difficulty check. How about ranting about the end of the world and collapsing into a sobbing heap instead? 

Also, Kim's a fricken' saint.

----------


## Taevyr

The game's also at it's best when you're willing to listen to your invested skills when they clearly have _terrible ideas_. Be the character you created! Punch that Post Box! Throw stuff at seagulls! Go into a complete breakdown over the rhetorical ****ing of a hat out on the sea ice! THE SEA ICE!

And yeah, none of us deserve Kim.

----------


## Eldan

> The game's also at it's best when you're willing to listen to your invested skills when they clearly have _terrible ideas_. Be the character you created! Punch that Post Box! Throw stuff at seagulls! Go into a complete breakdown over the rhetorical ****ing of a hat out on the sea ice! THE SEA ICE!
> 
> And yeah, none of us deserve Kim.


Warning: bad language and mild spoilers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlxxE9YlRJ8

----------


## Eldan

> Absolutely agree, and aside from all of that it's also really funny (I think a lot of people are scared off by the idea of a game that leans so heavily into politics, philosophy and psychology but its sense of humor balances it out quite nicely).


And then it balances out the hilarious fun with being soul-crushingly sad. Then balances that out with some fantastic catharsis.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

And then you get to sing karaoke. Thanks Ancient Reptilian Brain!


Anyway, I decided to take a break from Inquisitor  Martyr and try some of the new Lego Star Wars. After about an hour I can make these comparisons between it and The Complete Saga.

The combat system is vastly improved, with melee as a Jedi being a really fun experience. It makes me wish normal enemies were tougher.

The retelling of the story is a lot more boring. It's mostly serious, and most of the jokes (of which there are precious few) would probably work better without dialogue. The visual comedy is still there, but there's a lot less of it.

The game is set up terribly. In The Phantom Menace I've had two levels so far, both short vehicle sections, and a few hub areas that they might want me to explore but which I got bored of by the third one. Although they also rush you through the hub areas with objective markers, so who knows. So instead of just having a hub and going to linear levels,which worked fine, I have to either run around maps finding side challenges or rush through a story I'm fairly certain I can't replay without a new save file.

Oh, and the podrace in The Skywalker Saga sucks. I felt like I had no idea how big my pod actually was or it's ability to turn, whereas in TCS it was rail shooter steering, but it worked beautifully.

It's a very annoyingly mediocre game following up a nostalgic game that still oozes with charm to this day. It might be a better solo experience, but that just makes me want to invite a friend round for battenberg and computer games.

----------


## Spore

That Disco Elysium thing sounds like one should buy a copy sooner rather than later before this is locked in an eternal battle between several rights owners and unsellable.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> That Disco Elysium thing sounds like one should buy a copy sooner rather than later before this is locked in an eternal battle between several rights owners and unsellable.


Waaaaaay ahead of you, have had it for weeks, just haven't played it yet because I want to finish ME legendary edition first to free up space on my hard drive.

----------


## Cespenar

I'd be less grim about the Disco IP issue since as long as the minds behind the game persevere, they could do more; but sadly that seems to be up in the air as well.

Here's to hoping they get their affairs together eventually.

----------


## Cygnia

The hubby just couldn't get into DE...too grim for his tastes and he's not keen on mood whiplash.

Meanwhile, I'm 3 fights away from finishing up FF9.  Already took out Hades too.

----------


## Wookieetank

> Meanwhile, I'm 3 fights away from finishing up FF9.  Already took out Hades too.


Not sure if you've run into this yet (my brother and I only found it when we were in the final dungeon first time around), but certain summons on certain bosses will keep re-summoning themselves for free.  If you run into trouble with the final boss I recommend Ark :)

----------


## Taevyr

> Warning: bad language and mild spoilers:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlxxE9YlRJ8


Love that vid, especially that all that dialogue's plucked directly from the game. Nothing plot-important, but glorious in the worst way possible.

----------


## Theoboldi

Some day I've gotta try to play Disco Elysium again too. The first time I did, I sadly bounced really hard off the health mechanic. Just felt like it discouraged the more fun, self-destructive dialogue choices and it got pretty stressful to keep stocked up on healing items. That darn chair.....

Does anyone have a tip on how to handle that aspect of the game effectively, especially early on?


On a different note, I recently bought the Wild Guns remake. That game still holds up, even all these years later, and the updated graphics and soundtrack do it absolute justice. The weird sci-fi wild west aesthetic the game has going on looks better than ever. Plus the new characters and stages are fun, so that's a good time. I don't think there are many other games out there that let you play as a dog mentally controlling a flying machine gun drone.

----------


## Eldan

Have at least 2 endurance and 2 volition. I.e. 2 Physical and 2 Psyche. That way you don't die immediately. If you aren't set on getting any specific skills high early on, play at least 3 psyche, 3 physical. 

You can also pretty easily trick your way into money early on, at which point it becomes kind of trivial to just buy 3-5 of every healing item at the store.  

Spoilery, easiest way to make some money early on: 
*Spoiler*
Show

Ask people for bribes donations, but make sure to have just slightly not enough to pay your debt to the Caféteria manager. Joyce Messier, the corpo Lady on the boat, will give you 100 real with no further comment, if you manage the check to ask for it. Kim will offer to pawn his fancy hubcaps to pay for you. Pawn the hubcaps. Now have far more money than you need. 


Alternatively: the perception skill increases your chance to find random small items on the map. Those are mostly small coins, but may also be healing items.

Good locations for scavenging early on, slightly spoilery:
*Spoiler*
Show

If you have decent perception, both the old appartment complex and the abandoned commercial area behind the bookstore are full of stuff. You can easily make a few dozen reals just by digging around in small nooks.

----------


## Theoboldi

Thanks, that's some pretty good tips. I'll see about trying them out next time I play it.

----------


## Cygnia

Finished FF9.  Accidentally won the final battle with the Femme Fatales? achievement.  :Small Red Face: 

Palate cleanser game right now with a point & click fantasy/ghost story set in Wales called "Rhiannon: Curse of the Four Branches".  Bit clumsy here and there, but it should be relatively quick.

----------


## ShneekeyTheLost

Was feeling like some wholesome casual goodness, so I reinstalled My Time At Portia again. Then proceeded to min/max the heck out of it, with an Industrial Furnace before the 'presents falling from the sky' festival in spring. Because apparently somewhere in my head, that translates to 'casual'. My head is a strange place sometimes. 

Anyway, point is, I had forgotten just how good this game actually is for chillin' and vibin'. Sure, you CAN min/max the hell out of it, but you can also just kinda chill and relax and slowly grow your circle of friends and influence. There's no real stress involved, there's no deadlines that must be made that aren't self-imposed (commissions you have to do in a certain time, but you can opt to not accept them), so you can just live your life how you want. Very much the same vibe that Stardew Valley gives in that aspect. Or, yanno, you can decide to stick it to your not-so-friendly rival, and completely dominate him at his own game while still being a generally sociable member of the community. Your pick. 

I've also played My Time At Sandrock, the sequel, but it seems to have somewhat lost this chill vibe. It's a harsher environment, where sandstorms cause problems, where water is a strictly rationed resource and is now needed for all machines to function. There's a lot more resource management in Sandrock than in Portia, and if you ever thought to your self 'the idea of Portia is all well and good, but it's far too casual, I want more challenge', then you'd probably really enjoy Sandrock. It's still VERY early access, probably at least half the game isn't even done yet as far as plot progression goes. However, the combat system already has a more complex and nuanced system of different weapons behaving different mechanically, with a skill tree that you can use to lean into a particular fighting style, it introduces at least one actually kinda-viable ranged weapon with promised expansion in the future. Despite very similar graphics (and a lot of assets borrowed from the previous game), it has a very different feel and vibe to it. If this is good or bad will ultimately depend on what you are looking for.

----------


## warty goblin

Been slowly chugging away at a little card based RPG called Cardaclaysm: Shards of the Four. Normally I don't love card based games, but this isn't a Slay the Spire clone. Rather its more like a lot of really short Magic games where you get new cards as loot.

So you mostly summon creatures, instead of play Block cards on yourself. And all the creatures have really lovely 3d models with animations and everything, and generally some kind of special ability. Most battles take like 2 turns, so it's basically a little puzzle of trying to kill all the enemy creatures with your hand of cards and your pretty strict mana limit. If you win, you get a new card. Deck building is very low key, you get 14 cards, and can change them out at any time between battles. Defeat all enemies on a map, and a big scary boss monster shows up. You probably want to run away from these at first, but eventually you need to fight them to progress. 

What really makes this work is how snappy and fast paced it is. A battle takes a couple minutes, a whole map can be cleared in under 15. And the creature variety is fantastic, loads of character and options, so just playing the cards is fun.

----------


## Rynjin

If you want something that's a mix of the two, Monster Train is quite fun, I've been playing it recently and enjoying it. It's more roguelike, like Slay the Spire, but definitely more focused on minion management and placement of your units. You get one commander unit and other minions, plus spells and the like.

----------


## Lord Raziere

aaaaah, finally got through ME2, with a perfect run of the suicide mission and romanced Tali on a female character to boot, and all DLCs done. its a good day. soon I'll finally be able to play ME3. (with mods to make sure all that nonsense about a child and three endings is dealt with) pyros were a bit annoying to deal with in the Arrival mission though. couldn't snipe them with my glorious ONE SHOT, ONE KILL method.

----------


## Cespenar

> If you want something that's a mix of the two, Monster Train is quite fun, I've been playing it recently and enjoying it. It's more roguelike, like Slay the Spire, but definitely more focused on minion management and placement of your units. You get one commander unit and other minions, plus spells and the like.


Monster Train is my favorite/utopic example of being clearly inspired from a bestselling game yet adding enough from your own as to uphold at least a modicum of self esteem as a creator.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> and romanced Tali on a female character to boot, and all DLCs done.


Blasphemy! The only true love interest is Garrus! Or Kaiden if you're playing WrongShep.

----------


## Eldan

Kaiden, really? Anyway, the Romances go Garrus>Tali>>>everyone else.

----------


## Form

> Blasphemy! The only true love interest is Garrus! Or Kaiden if you're playing WrongShep.


Kaidan? Who's Kaida-.. oooh, that guy you leave behind to die on Virmire. That Kaidan? I mean, sure, if you want a romance that is tragically cut short...  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Blasphemy! The only true love interest is Garrus! Or Kaiden if you're playing WrongShep.


I mean.....only if your interested in men. Which is unfortunately, Garrus's main flaw romantically to me. But thats okay, he is still like, a platonic best bro. not every good character needs to be romanced. and besides as a leader he needs to flourish and discover how great he can be outside Shepard's influence. 

while Kaidan, he died heroically on Virmire while I romanced Liara. Its okay, its for a good cause, not just getting rid of Saren's plan with a bomb, but also to teach Ashley to not be a space specieist through offscreen character development. we see her grow from ME1: "don't trust the aliens Shepard!!!!1!" to ME2: "Your working with Cerberus the Human Supremacist Terrorist Group, which is something I, Ashley Williams, Known Alien Distruster, cannot condone or approve of." to ME3: "Tali is a treasure and if you let the Geth kill her I _will_ tear you a new one."

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Kaiden, really? Anyway, the Romances go Garrus>Tali>>>everyone else.


His gay romance is supposed to be a lot better, I'll probably do an ME3 run to verify.




> Kaidan? Who's Kaida-.. oooh, that guy you leave behind to die on Virmire. That Kaidan? I mean, sure, if you want a romance that is tragically cut short...


That's a strange thing to say, his romance doesn't unlock until the third game.

Also apparently in the third game he's much more reasonable than Ashley.

ETA: to be fair, I'm bi/pan and so are most of the characters I play in CRPGs, being monosexual feels weird to me.

I'm currently playing Vampire: The Masquerade: Out For Blood as a pansexual female failed scientist (despite my 3 Intelligence and 5 Science & Technology) with a goal to sleep with every human possible in the game. Only just got past the dinner party, so nothing's happened yet, but dammit Adam let me help you get your trousers off!

Actually I do hope the writer makes a sequel to this one, I really like Adam and Lacey as characters, and it would serve as a decent basis for a Hunter: the Vigiling 5e adaptation.

----------


## Rynjin

> Also apparently in the third game he's much more reasonable than Ashley.


The Reapers are more reasonable than Ashley, that's not saying much. Easily the worst character in the entire franchise.

----------


## Eldan

> The Reapers are more reasonable than Ashley, that's not saying much. Easily the worst character in the entire franchise.


But... Jacob exists?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> But... Jacob exists?


Jacob's totally reasonable, all he wants is THE PRIZE.

----------


## Form

> That's a strange thing to say, his romance doesn't unlock until the third game.


Very well, _pining for_ tragically cut short then.

----------


## Cygnia

Been going through my Steam stockpile gaming-wise, so I'm gonna talk about what I've played in '22 and maybe try to figure out what to play next.

Final Fantasy IX: With all the numerous spin-offs FF7 has, can we get a follow-up game for Freya here? Maybe we can flesh out Amarant while we're at it...

Chicken Police -- Paint it Red!:  Glorious.  Absolutely glorious.  Please give me a sequel.

Inspector Waffles: The reason why I ended up picking up Chicken Police. Not quite as cool as CP, but I'm willing to try other games if they follow up with the character.

Detective Grimoire/Tangle Tower: There's a nugget of continuity here that I wanna see where they go with it.

To Be or Not To Be: What if Hamlet was a Choose Your Own Adventure?  Hilarious.

Talos Principle: I want to finish this so badly, but DAMN, I do NOT have good reaction time for some of the final puzzles and it's frustrating me.

The Looker: Free game and quick.  A parody of games like Talos or "The Witness"

The Trials:  Did not finish.  Will not finish.  Gives me motion sickness.  Talos is better.

Iron Danger: Interesting time-rewind mechanics, but it just ENDS, making things feel incomplete.

Wytchwood: Who doesn't like a snarky witch as a protagonist?  Fun but feels incomplete in places.

Planescape: Torment -- One of THE games back in the day, allegedly.  Finished it, but I didn't really enjoy it.  Which is a shame, because Planescape was my favorite setting in 2e D&D.

Plague Tale: Innocence -- Not bad.  I'm curious how the sequel will be.

Rhiannon: Curse of the Four Branches -- Point & Click ghost story based on Welsh folklore. Would have been stronger if Rhiannon was the protagonist and not her uncle.

Nikopol: Secrets of the Immortals -- Wat.  Seriously.  WTF?

Cats In Time: Adorable puzzle game. 

Final Fantasy VIII:  Have not finished it. Better graphics than 7 or 9, but Squall needs to be punched in the junk repeatedly. Why does he have to be the protagonist? He's an ungrateful git!

----------


## Rynjin

> Plague Tale: Innocence -- Not bad.  I'm curious how the sequel will be.


I was so put off by the voice actors putting on completely different accents from the first game that I stopped playing before the opening cutscene ended, having just finished Innocence as well.

I'll wait until I forget what the characters are supposed to sound like first.

----------


## Wookieetank

> Final Fantasy VIII:  Have not finished it. Better graphics than 7 or 9, but Squall needs to be punched in the junk repeatedly. Why does he have to be the protagonist? He's an ungrateful git!


He's an orphan with memory loss and raised from a young age to be a child solider.  Pretty sure any one of those would be enough to mess someone up, let alone all 3.  Not saying he gets a lot better, but you do learn why he is the way he is.

----------


## Gnoman

Squall has massive issues that you don't really see until later in the game. Galbadia Garden, where he has a long internal monologue before suddenly lashing out at everybody, is the first glimpse you get.

----------


## Mark Hall

> ETA: to be fair, I'm bi/pan and so are most of the characters I play in CRPGs, being monosexual feels weird to me.


One of the problems I have in Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous is that I can't make a polycule with Daeran, Lann, and the succubus whose name I can never spell.

Daeran would be down, the succubus doesn't know human customs... Lann might balk, but, really, he's not my first choice. He interprets sparring as a date, after all.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> One of the problems I have in Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous is that I can't make a polycule with Daeran, Lann, and the succubus whose name I can never spell.
> 
> Daeran would be down, the succubus doesn't know human customs... Lann might balk, but, really, he's not my first choice. He interprets sparring as a date, after all.


I mean, most of my dates end in sparring  :Small Tongue: 

I wasn't actually talking about being poly, but yeah I'm also poly. I think we're at the stage with polyamory in games that we were with gay options two decades ago. I can think of one game where you can end up in a triad with major characters (Kingmaker), and no hinges, quads, or more complex polycules. Unless we're getting into stuff we can't talk about on this site. It'll be ten years until I can have my dream of building my party like the relationship map of a soap opera, but it's all 100% consensual.

Hopefully Out for Blood will let me get into an Adam/PV/Lacey hinge. Hopefully with Adam staying with the PC, because man does he need someone who'll give him his independence.

----------


## NeoVid

> Been going through my Steam stockpile gaming-wise, so I'm gonna talk about what I've played in '22 and maybe try to figure out what to play next.
> 
> Final Fantasy IX: With all the numerous spin-offs FF7 has, can we get a follow-up game for Freya here? Maybe we can flesh out Amarant while we're at it...
> 
> Final Fantasy VIII:  Have not finished it. Better graphics than 7 or 9, but Squall needs to be punched in the junk repeatedly. Why does he have to be the protagonist? He's an ungrateful git!


Yes, please to a Freya side story.  She was awesome but didn't get to do anything cool after Disc 1, and the Burmecians/Cleyrans are just about the only rat people in fiction to be based on real rats instead of rat stereotypes.

As for Squall, he has clinical depression, and when you learn more about his backstory, you'll understand why.  All of the player characters in 8 except for Rinoa have major psychological issues, Quistis and Irvine are just better at hiding it than the rest.  A big part of why FF8 is my favorite is how relatable I found the characters.  If you don't have a reason to find them relatable, I'm very happy for you.

----------


## Zevox

I got into the second closed beta for Street Fighter 6, so spent a lot of today playing that. A few first impressions:

The custom character creator is crazy in-depth. Probably the most in-depth I've ever seen - though to be fair, I think the only one I've seen since Bioware stopped making games I wanted to play is Soul Calibur's, since I've never gotten much into most WRPGs that aren't Bioware's, which is where it feels like this sort of thing is usually found. If it is a visible part of the human body, you can probably manipulate it in at least four ways in this game, sometimes more. In the beta, the custom characters are only used as your lobby avatar, but I know the full game will be using them in the World Tour mode (basically the game's story/main single player mode), so it's really good to see how much effort went into this. It even includes some nice little touches I've never seen in a character creator before, such as how when you adjustment your character's height, a full-size cardboard cutout of one of the game's characters (Luke) is placed next to them for reference, so you're not just adjusting it in a vacuum.

On the downside, you don't initially get to customize your outfit. You get some starting clothes, and then others can be unlocked with in-game currency from a shop. And those clothing options are pretty limited, and if you want multiple color options for a given outfit piece, you have to pay multiple times (assuming the color option you want even exists, most only give two). And at least in the beta, the way you get the in-game currency is from daily/weekly "challenges," similar to what you'd expect from a free-to-play game. That part I'm really not a fan of. The beta ones are easy enough, play a few matches, fiddle with the menus, and you'll get a bunch of tickets; but I doubt they'll all be like that when the full game releases. Hopefully the full game will have easy ways to earn these currencies in World Tour mode, and a lot more clothing options to buy; otherwise, this'll be a black mark on the character creator.

The game's online mode is now a lobby called the Battle Hub, similar to what ArcSys games have been doing for a while now, which I like. What I don't like is how convoluted finding some things in it is. Oh, the things you can just walk up to, like the arcade cabinets used to start a fight with someone, or the clothing shop, etc are all fine; but there's several different menus you can open with different buttons that all provide different options. For the first half of the day I legitimately couldn't figure out how to que up for a ranked match because that option is tucked away in a menu I just hadn't found yet, and it took me a good five minutes of fiddling around to find the menu from which you can change your avatar's clothes after I accidentally switched out a piece I wanted to keep wearing when buying a different item. Why they can't just have one main menu with everything that comes up from the options button, I have no idea, it's a really strange design. On the up side, once you have figured out how to get into the kind of matches you want, there seem to be few issues doing so (though not none, I have had some dropped connections), and the netcode is quite good, with most of my matches feeling very smooth. Certainly a big step up from past Street Fighter games there.

For actual gameplay, I've only played Juri so far, since she was an old favorite of mine in SF4 (didn't like what they did with her in SF5). In SF6 I definitely like her better than her SF5 version, but am not sure I like her as much as her SF4 version. She has her divekick back, which is quite nice, it being removed is one of the things I didn't like in SF5; but on the downside, it can now only be done from a forward jump, which means messing with people by jumping backwards and suddenly divekicking them when they try to chase you is no longer a thing, and that is something I enjoyed doing with her in SF4. They did change how her stock mechanic works so that now her power-storing kick is a separate move from the attacks it empowers, and those moves can be done with no stock... though the only one I can see bothering to use that way is the heavy kick, which is still a good combo ender even without the stock powering it up. The fireball has literally no range without the stock, and the axe kick can't be comboed after without the stock, so those completely lose their purpose without it. On the up side, her heavy power-storing kick move now launches the enemy so high that she gets to combo with it - into her DP meterless, or into any of her supers if she has the bar to burn. Her level 1 super is actually quite satisfying to use that way, I must say. Though I really _want_ to be using her level 2, Feng Shui Engine, which not only gives her the chain combo mechanic it always has, but turns her 2HP in a jump-cancelable launcher, letting her go into an air combo into her divekick; the problem is, using that super in a combo often does less damage (or at best slightly more damage) than just using her level 1, and its utility outside of combos... well, I haven't labbed it much in SF6, but it was never high in the other games. So thus far, I fear it costing twice as much as her level 1 just isn't worth it.

Still getting used to the game, so there's a lot of the new Drive mechanic that I'm not using. Mostly I use it for Ex moves or to throw around Drive Impact, because that move is crazy effective. I really don't know how to use parry effectively given how it works in this game, and Drive Rush is... finicky and going to take some labbing with. And since training mode in the beta is only available while waiting for an opponent at a cabinet in the lobby, it's hard to control how much time I have for that. And I legitimately forget that Drive Reversal (aka Guard Cancel) is in the game, and need to look up what the input for it even is before I can try using it...

So, overall day 1 first impressions: the game is definitely looking considerably better than Street Fighter 5. No surprise there, given that's not a high bar and the previews already made it look like it easily clears that, but still worth saying. I don't know how much more I'll like it than that personally though. Juri's not bad, but isn't grabbing me so much that I'm thinking she'd definitely be my main. And the things that I don't much like about Street Fighter compared to other fighting games are still definitely present - as much as the Drive system opens up a lot of new options in some ways, the game still feels and flows like the other Street Fighter games overall. Still, the character creator being as good as it is feels like a good sign for the World Tour mode, even if, as I kind of figured would be the case, I decide I'd rather play other fighting games for the actual fighting.

----------


## warty goblin

So the second stage Early Access for Sins of a Solar Empire 2 dropped yesterday. It's definitely more of a game now,  you can build different capital ships, there's starbases, the research interface is not great, but definitely a work in progress instead of an obvious placeholder, and so on. I still can't recommend it as a game even of itself, if you want Sins, play Sins 1, but it's very definitely shaping up to be a worthy Sins 2.

I'm really liking some of the more, mmm, simulationesque things they've added. Missiles being actual tracked entities is the biggest change; you can dodge them to an extent, and some weapons systems can target them. This both makes the point defense frigates more valuable, and lets them make missiles a lot scarier damage-wise because you can hard counter them.

----------


## Cygnia

Look, I'll probably go back to FF8 after the holidays, but I also suffer from clinical depression (being treated thankfully).  And I still find Squall insufferable.  Now, maybe I will feel differently once I get to his denouncement.  We'll see.

Another game I want to finish, but I just don't seem to have the reflexes for is The Hex.  Doing the Space Marine story right now.  I want to get it done so I can then try my hand at Pony Island and Inscryption and see how they all tie together

----------


## Rynjin

A disturbing number of people seem to conflate mental illness and being an abuser as inextricably linked things, and that one excuses the other somehow.

----------


## Spore

> One of the problems I have in Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous is that I can't make a polycule with Daeran, Lann, and the succubus whose name I can never spell.
> 
> Daeran would be down, the succubus doesn't know human customs... Lann might balk, but, really, he's not my first choice. He interprets sparring as a date, after all.


I'll just officially date Daeran every time and my head canon does the rest for me. If the others do not join, I am sure the Count can "motivate" some handsome strangers to do so.

----------


## Triaxx

Squall is insufferable but mostly because he's a teenager. He does have some reasons for it and get's a bit better.

Of course that's one of the reason's I prefer Zidane to Squall.

----------


## Taevyr

> A disturbing number of people seem to conflate mental illness and being an abuser as inextricably linked things, and that one excuses the other somehow.


One example that always grinds my personal gears: I can recall at least three separate occasions on which a (semi)-celebrity or another essentially said "yeah, I'm an *******, but that's because I'm autistic and can't help it".

Screw that. You _might_ be able to use it as a one-time excuse if you were unaware of being an *******, but once you start using it as an excuse consistently, you're just abusing it so you can act like an ******* with impunity. While worsening the situation for neurodivergent people who struggle but at least actually try to treat people decently.


More on-thread: been giving Bannerlord a try recently, and it's _dangerously_ easy to get sucked into that one. Great fun though, even if I consistently fail at making my workshops even slightly profitable.

----------


## Spore

> Squall is insufferable but mostly because he's a teenager. He does have some reasons for it and get's a bit better.
> 
> Of course that's one of the reason's I prefer Zidane to Squall.


I played FF8 as a preteen. I never found him insufferable, but I was never really swooning over his feat either. I started the game and thought "that is so cool that he gets to fight and cast magic in a school for it" but as soon as one started the Dollet mission where you would see the horrors of war (PG 12 version at least) I'd understand. Squall is a (child) soldier - though to my kid self he was basically an adult - I wouldn't be all smiles then too. In fact if you take their reality into question, Zell and Selphie are the weirdos. Optimistic idiots who relish fighting so much.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

After a fierce battle with the Enter Your Name screen I have finally started playing Skyward Sword HD. It's a good thing too, I was getting to the point where Link would have been named Ladybits if I had to come up with another name.

As to the game? I hate Fi already, and haven't even got to the first dungeon. I'm also not exactly a massive fan of the swordfighting, although I think I might prefer it if I had a dock for the Switch. As it is it's mostly just a decent Zelda game with a companion even worse than Navi.

----------


## ShneekeyTheLost

> More on-thread: been giving Bannerlord a try recently, and it's _dangerously_ easy to get sucked into that one. Great fun though, even if I consistently fail at making my workshops even slightly profitable.


If you like Bannerlord, and you like sci-fi, give Star Sector a try. It's not on Steam, you actually have to go to their website for now, but it's great. You only control your personal ship in combat, but you can give some orders to other vessels (full assault, escort that vessel, To Me!, etc...). You hire officers who have basic personalities that determine how aggressive they are. Aggressive is good for an officer in a rush-down type ship, but probably not so much for a carrier. 

Getting a colony requires you to at least somewhat manage it, either directly or by assigning a governor for the colony. It starts off as a money sink but can be very profitable into the late game and can also build your own ships instead of trying to find them elsewhere. Assuming you can find the blueprints, of course. 

You also generally have a logistics tail of ships in your fleet for things like hauling cargo/spares/loot, hauling fuel, hauling marines to make people regret pissing you off... yanno, ships that aren't intended to get into combat. 

While you can go out and get bounties for hunting pirates, you can also turn pirate and start raiding and pillaging your weaselly black guts out, or you can be an enterprising trader who buys low and sells high, or you can be a scavenger going out into the periphery, finding loots, and making a payday by selling them to interested buyers. 

If you like this style of play, give it a try. It might surprise you. There's also a robust wiki which is kept up to date.

----------


## Taevyr

> If you like Bannerlord, and you like sci-fi, give Star Sector a try. It's not on Steam, you actually have to go to their website for now, but it's great. You only control your personal ship in combat, but you can give some orders to other vessels (full assault, escort that vessel, To Me!, etc...). You hire officers who have basic personalities that determine how aggressive they are. Aggressive is good for an officer in a rush-down type ship, but probably not so much for a carrier. 
> 
> Getting a colony requires you to at least somewhat manage it, either directly or by assigning a governor for the colony. It starts off as a money sink but can be very profitable into the late game and can also build your own ships instead of trying to find them elsewhere. Assuming you can find the blueprints, of course. 
> 
> You also generally have a logistics tail of ships in your fleet for things like hauling cargo/spares/loot, hauling fuel, hauling marines to make people regret pissing you off... yanno, ships that aren't intended to get into combat. 
> 
> While you can go out and get bounties for hunting pirates, you can also turn pirate and start raiding and pillaging your weaselly black guts out, or you can be an enterprising trader who buys low and sells high, or you can be a scavenger going out into the periphery, finding loots, and making a payday by selling them to interested buyers. 
> 
> If you like this style of play, give it a try. It might surprise you. There's also a robust wiki which is kept up to date.


Sounds like it'd be up my alley. Between Bannerlord (and Warband), Battletech sandbox Mode, and CK3 to an extent, I've been developing a clear interest in games that occupy a sandboxy space between small-scale group management, large-scale political/territorial management and roleplay. Bannerlord's a bit light on the actual politics/rp aspects, CK3 lacks the "broke space cowboy/merc company trudging from job to job" aspect, and Battletech... I actually should give that another try, last time didn't last long. 

Bannerlord just had me finally get the cluster of one town and two castles I'd set my sights on, after focusing on fortifying/building up the one castle I'd taken there and milking any other fief I was offered (and could get) while saving influence/men for when war became feasible. All of a sudden, my gold reserves went from eternal yoyo-ing to a veritable wellspring. Maybe I can get a third castle nearby, with some luck.

Also, I've got about 20 enemy nobles (as in, party leaders) imprisoned in said city, am actively refusing all ransom offers, and it's _really_ noticeable that they can't cover nearly as much ground as before. It's broken as hell.

----------


## Zevox

Finished my last day with the Street Fighter 6 closed beta. Day 2 went pretty much the same as the first, but for the final day, I decided to try the one character in the beta I figured I might like besides Juri: Kimberly, the new kinda-ninja girl. And honestly, that helped a lot. Kimberly has moves that feel like they actually help me deal with Street Fighter's relatively bland gameplay and let me do more fun stuff - moves that help her get in (a command run and a teleport), moves that strengthen her mixup options (multiple grounded overheads, solid combos off her lows, an elbow drop that lets her fake doing a crossup), and her combos are longer and flashier than most, including often launching enemies into the air and then getting to jump after them for an air combo, something that's very rare in Street Fighter but which I quite like doing. Honestly, her combos make me feel more like Juri does when she has Feng Shui Engine on, but unlike Juri she doesn't need to activate a 2-bar super to do them. And that's without getting into some of the more advanced stuff she can do, like the with delayed explosion spray-paint cans she can throw out, which I didn't really use much. 

To my surprise, now that I have to stop playing, I kind of wish I didn't. Seems I've found a character that might just make me want to play this game after all. We'll see how that goes once it's finally out though, of course. Or during future betas; with there still being almost six months until release, and this being a second closed beta, I'm sure there will be at least one open one at some point, possibly two, and any such thing will almost certainly let us try more of the characters. That's been pretty standard for a number of recent fighting games.

Just for the hell of it, the characters in this beta by how popular they seemed to be (i.e. how many people I fought that used them):
Most Popular: Ryu and Ken. No surprises there, they're always among or the most-played characters in any Street Fighter game.
2nd Tier: Juri and Kimberly.
3rd Tier: Jamie and Chun-Li. My understanding is these two are considered more difficult to use than the rest of the beta characters, so this makes sense to me.
Least Popular: Guile and Luke. Kind of surprising, given Luke is supposed to be an easy-to-use, shoto-like character in the vein of Ryu and Ken, and is the literal poster boy for the game, but he was probably the single least popular character in the beta. Granted, I think he's a lame character design, so maybe a lot of people think like me there, but still. And Guile is another well-known mainstay of the series that isn't too hard to play, so him being nearly as rare to see as Luke was also surprising.

----------


## Cespenar

I'm playing something called Artist Life Simulator, which plays 99% like Cultist Simulator but with more focus on feelings -- negative mood cards cramp your style and you either think/paint/talk to get rid of them or counter them with their opposite feelings, while juggling sanity, money and health. 

Weirdly fun, but I wouldn't recommend them if you find the timed juggling gameplay stressful, or don't prefer emotions-themed games.

----------


## zlefin

I'm still playing hearthstone, it's stlil reasonably entertaining as a game, though it continues to have issues as it long has.  The power creep has gotten worse of late; and the power level of some of the better cards these days is just ridiculous.  The number of modern decks that can readily outpace a year old murloc aggro deck is considerable.

They added a new Death Knight class;  it's got some neat stuff and subthemes, but a new weird deckbuilding restriction mechanic I dislike, which limits your ability to mix the different subthemes of the class.  While it's new, I'm not sure it really adds much to the game other than its newness.  It doesn't feel as well 'integrated' into the rest of the game; less integrated than Demon hunter was.

Been playing some Adom again; actually making it past the early game a few times, though I continue to dislike some of the ways this game works.  PArticularly how the games' balance is wonky so that getting past the start is basically winning; it seems like a poor difficulty curve design.

Also digging up my old Civ 4; I play it for a bit, but have trouble getting invested enough to really play it a lot.  I used to play the Vanilla version a decade ago or something; at some point I picked up a full version on sale, but I've never played a game long enough to reach corporations, just dithered around in the early/mid game for a bit.

I've quite a number of other old games I might try digging up to play for awhile.  Ofc I still have a backlog of unopened games as well :P

----------


## Rynjin

I like Runes; in theory they're a different lever to balance cards with other than raw numbers and mana cost.

The issue with Death knight is that it is like genetically engineered to be busted in Arena and useless in Standard. It has a bunch of individually REALLY STRONG, premium cards like "Literally Consecration but you also draw a card", but they have little to no synergy with each other.

Nothing in a Death Knight deck ends up as stronger than the sum of its parts.

----------


## Cygnia

It's official -- I'm easing myself back into FF8.  Now to remember what the controls are on my PC... :Small Red Face: 

(Got Odin to agree to work with me tonight at least)

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I got Werewolf the Apocalypse: Heart of the Forest on the Steam sale, and as I'm away from home over Christmas it'll probably be the only game I play until I'm back.

So yeah, Visual Novel is Visual Novel. I like the artstyle more than Coteries of New York, and it's Werewolf, so it's off to a good start. It'll be interesting to see how much it matches up with current information on the new edition. I'm not that far into it though, so it still has time to lose me, particularly if regaining Willpower is as hard as feeding was in CoNY*.

* Darn you Ventrue weakness!

----------


## Cygnia

I did binge through the 3 Nick Bounty point & clicks yesterday before heading back to FF8....not bad, but I'm glad I only paid $5 for the set.

Trying to bite back my urge to splurge on Steam right now until AFTER Christmas.  I've not-so subtly hinted to the hubby that I want "Stray".

----------


## Cespenar

> I got Werewolf the Apocalypse: Heart of the Forest on the Steam sale, and as I'm away from home over Christmas it'll probably be the only game I play until I'm back.
> 
> So yeah, Visual Novel is Visual Novel. I like the artstyle more than Coteries of New York, and it's Werewolf, so it's off to a good start. It'll be interesting to see how much it matches up with current information on the new edition. I'm not that far into it though, so it still has time to lose me, particularly if regaining Willpower is as hard as feeding was in CoNY*.
> 
> * Darn you Ventrue weakness!


I've been putting that off for so long as well. Is the writing comparable to coteries in quality?

----------


## Spore

> I got Werewolf the Apocalypse: Heart of the Forest on the Steam sale, and as I'm away from home over Christmas it'll probably be the only game I play until I'm back.
> 
> So yeah, Visual Novel is Visual Novel. I like the artstyle more than Coteries of New York, and it's Werewolf, so it's off to a good start. It'll be interesting to see how much it matches up with current information on the new edition. I'm not that far into it though, so it still has time to lose me, particularly if regaining Willpower is as hard as feeding was in CoNY*.
> 
> * Darn you Ventrue weakness!


For a split second I feared you bought the action game Earthblood.

----------


## Zevox

I just finished playing through God of War: Ragnarok again. Truly 100%ed it this time, too. Yeah, I might love this game a whole lot.

*Spoiler: Endgame spoilers*
Show

It's actually pretty interesting re-playing it with the knowledge that Tyr was Odin in disguise the whole time. You can really see how he manipulated you throughout the game, nudging Atreus into conflict with Kratos by feeding into his beliefs about the Giants' prophecies, even though he had to do it while maintaining the pretense that he had no desire to lead the forces of the realms into Ragnarok the way Atreus believed the prophecies showed Tyr doing since he wanted to avoid actually bringing about Ragnarok if at all possible. It's also interesting to see a couple of moments where Odin kind of slips up even before the scene Brok calls him out, just in ways too subtle for Kratos and the others (or first-time players) to catch. His truly stunned reaction to learning that the Ragnarok prophecy Groa had given him was a lie is an obvious one in retrospect, but there's also another moment, after Heimdal's death, where he warns that Odin had "promised peace as long as no more Aesir blood was spilled" - and even setting aside Kratos' response that he'd rejected that deal, that's something "Tyr" was never told. But that's far enough into the game that unless you're keeping very close track of everything said in their conversations, it's easy to forget that detail never got mentioned to him.

On a less story related note, I wasn't sure the first time around which of the post-game bonus bosses was harder, Hrolf or Gna. After this time around, I'm now confident it's Gna. Hrolf's still a tough one, but I was able to overcome him in only two attempts this time, despite being on a higher difficulty ("Give Me No Mercy" instead of "Give Me Balance" - basically, hard instead of normal). Gna though still took a couple of hours worth of tries to finally bring down. She's a damn worthy follow-up to the Sigrun fight in the first game. They're both very satisfying boss fights though, for sure. It is a shame though that once you beat them, there's nothing left in the game to use the stuff you get for beating them on - even if you saved other side-quests, they'll be easy compared to fighting those two anyway.

Honestly, I wonder if they might have some post-game DLC planned? While there's not really any danging story threads to speak of, since you get to hunt down Gna post-game already, there is the rescue of the real Tyr, which currently only results in him having a few cameos in various places throughout the game afterward, with very brief conversations attached to each. Notably, none of which are at Sindri's house in the Realm Between Realms, which Freya tells him to visit them at when you rescue him, and there's no follow-up to Tyr mentioning that he feels like he knows Kratos' name when they meet. Maybe that was all really just to have some extra easter eggs at the end, or maybe they have plans for Tyr to show up in future games, but it feels like those comments beg some kind of follow-up. We'll see I guess.

I've also jumped back into DNF Duel since it just (finally) got its first big update. And damn, I should've gone back to the game a while ago, because it's just so much fun. My main character, Dragon Knight, didn't even get that many buffs compared to a lot of characters (justifiably, since she was already top-tier), but it's just a blast playing her again.

Although I really wish they hadn't buffed Launcher as much as they did. She's the game's most dedicated projectile spammer zoner, and was admittedly widely regarded as the worst character in the game, but holy hell, her with a bunch of amped-up abilities is such a pain in the rear to fight. She was already the most annoying character in the game before, and now... well, it feels kind of like trying to get in on Morridoom in UMvC3, if you know what that means. If you don't: it's like playing a bullet hell game, except because it's a fighting game I don't have comparable bullets to shoot back with. It's rough. Still, I've only played one of her so far, so I can still hope that even with all the buffs she got, most people would rather play other characters.

----------


## Form

I've picked AI: The Somnium files - nirvanA Initiative and it looks to be a very unusual game, which is what I'd guessed from what I'd seen of it before. It's... weird, but in a good, refreshing way. It'll probably take some time before I've learned how the game thinks to clear the Somnium segments, but aggressive use of timies and making educated guesses should allow me to clear those parts fairly easily. It feels like a visual novel that doesn't take itself too seriously with some interactive elements.

So far Aiba's been a total goofball and she's probably going to be like that most of the game? Which is good! Be weird, Aiba! Weirdness is why I picked up this game, after all.

----------


## Cygnia

Cats In Time, which I found endearing, added two new levels of puzzles to it on the 22nd!

Unfortunately, the very first area has a bugged puzzle, making it problematic to finish and continue.  :Small Frown:   Hoping after the holidays, the developers fix that.

----------


## warty goblin

> For a split second I feared you bought the action game Earthblood.


Yeah, don't... don't do that. Earthblood is painful, even if you love janky action games it's just bad. Like playing a giant werewolf who just runs around chewing on bad guys should be perfect for a B game, but the combat isn't near crunchy enough to be satisfying. And then there's the stealth, which  is really dull. I usually find stealth dull, but this is extra dull with dull flakes on top.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I've been putting that off for so long as well. Is the writing comparable to coteries in quality?


I haven't got very far, because it turns out I forgot the freaking power cable for my laptop. I'd argue it's better than Coteries, but it might just be more of my style, it certainly helps that the game doesn't rush through the 'becoming a supernatural' part despite you playing a Lost Cub. Atmospheric, and it feels like meaningful decisions have already been made.

Although I'm not 100% certain what the beginning 'how much Rage do you have' is about. Am I choosing my Auspice? Does that mean I've gone Philodox by picking the middle option? If I'd picked the 5 Rage option would I be having even more issues with it? Although I'm sure all will be moreclear when Maia actually undergoes the First Change.




> For a split second I feared you bought the action game Earthblood.


Ha.

Hahaha.

Hahahaha.

Yeah, I've not really heard anything good about Earthblood. I might try it for curiosity's sake if it's ever on Steam for 69p, but not anything more.

----------


## warty goblin

> Ha.
> 
> Hahaha.
> 
> Hahahaha.
> 
> Yeah, I've not really heard anything good about Earthblood. I might try it for curiosity's sake if it's ever on Steam for 69p, but not anything more.


It isn't worth downloading. I have a well documented love of eurojank stuff, and trust me, this is not good even in that arena. The best janky games mostly work, but do something weird with a reach that exceeds their grasp. Earthblood does nothing weird, though arguably it's reach still exceeds its grasp. So what you get is the unlovable sort of jank, bad execution of deeply average or outright mediocre stuff. 

To whit, Earthblood has three modes. 

1: cutscene stuff. This is fine but boring. Maybe if you really like people yammering about Proper Fantasy Nouns and being brooding and troubled badasses this will light your fire, otherwise it's dull. 

2: sneaking. You crouch walk around disabling stuff. Mostly enemy spawn points.Then you turn into a wolf to crawl through air ducts. Is air duct crawling made more compelling by being a wolf? No, you're still shuffling around a rectangle. Eventually you get bored or make a mistake and end up spotted. Then it's time for

3: combat. Shockingly they made turning into a giant Wolfman and ripping security goons apart kinda dull. It's by far the least boring part, but it's still not good. It feels really out of control, and not like you're a berserk unstoppable monster, more like the association between what buttons you push and what the giant visual muddle in the middle of the screen seems to be doing is unclear. Eventually the blur that is you kills everybody, then you get to sneak some more.


Now even aside from the fact that everything is bad and not good, there's a huge problem with the core design. The point of stealth is to shut down enemy spawn points, which results in less combat. Combat is, insofar as any part of the game is good, the good part. So basically half of the game is set up to (very slowly and dully) remove content from the other half. But it's balanced so you kinda need to do the sneaky parts, so you can't just get spotted and get straight to the rending of flesh. So it's more like balanced combat encounters are held hostage behind boring sneaky bits.

In conclusion it's just bad in a boring way, which is the worst way to suck.

----------


## DaedalusMkV

> I've picked AI: The Somnium files - nirvanA Initiative and it looks to be a very unusual game, which is what I'd guessed from what I'd seen of it before. It's... weird, but in a good, refreshing way. It'll probably take some time before I've learned how the game thinks to clear the Somnium segments, but aggressive use of timies and making educated guesses should allow me to clear those parts fairly easily. It feels like a visual novel that doesn't take itself too seriously with some interactive elements.
> 
> So far Aiba's been a total goofball and she's probably going to be like that most of the game? Which is good! Be weird, Aiba! Weirdness is why I picked up this game, after all.


Are you playing the nivanA Initiative currently, or The Somnium Files? Hopefully the first one first, since nirvanA will spoil several important plot developments from the first game even if you don't pick the 'I'm okay with spoilers' option. Based on the fact you're talking about Aiba being a goofball, it should be the first game.

They aren't my favorite games, but I did enjoy them well enough to not feel I wasted my time. IMO the plot of the first game is superior (and overall quite good, very much the driving force behind wanting to play it), but the puzzles in game one are often arbitrary and not terribly interesting (there are a few exceptions, but mostly they're fairly dull). The second game doesn't have quite as strong a plot - I really feel like the author didn't bother with little things like 'plausibility' and 'a minimal level of logical consistency' for it. It does some interesting things, as I've come to expect from the team, but I'd say it's the weakest of any of Uchikoshi's games story-wise. Much better puzzles though. The worst puzzles in NI are on the level of some of the best in the first game, and they get better from there.

Of course, I love Kotaro Uchikoshi. He's one of the very, very few game developers who remains on my list of 'buy at full price, play immediately' creators. So when I say 'weak by his standards', it's still a trip and a half.

----------


## Form

> Are you playing the nivanA Initiative currently, or The Somnium Files? Hopefully the first one first, since nirvanA will spoil several important plot developments from the first game even if you don't pick the 'I'm okay with spoilers' option. Based on the fact you're talking about Aiba being a goofball, it should be the first game.
> 
> They aren't my favorite games, but I did enjoy them well enough to not feel I wasted my time. IMO the plot of the first game is superior (and overall quite good, very much the driving force behind wanting to play it), but the puzzles in game one are often arbitrary and not terribly interesting (there are a few exceptions, but mostly they're fairly dull). The second game doesn't have quite as strong a plot - I really feel like the author didn't bother with little things like 'plausibility' and 'a minimal level of logical consistency' for it. It does some interesting things, as I've come to expect from the team, but I'd say it's the weakest of any of Uchikoshi's games story-wise. Much better puzzles though. The worst puzzles in NI are on the level of some of the best in the first game, and they get better from there.
> 
> Of course, I love Kotaro Uchikoshi. He's one of the very, very few game developers who remains on my list of 'buy at full price, play immediately' creators. So when I say 'weak by his standards', it's still a trip and a half.


I'm playing nirvanA Initiative, but the full title of the game according to Steam apparently includes The Somnium Files in its prefix. Probably to indicate it's the sequel. 

Aiba's been a bit of a goofball in the first somnium so far. Honestly, all the characters seem a bit of a goofball. They have a habit of just throwing really weird things out there completely out of nowhere. It really feels like one of those games I shouldn't take too seriously and I'm mostly playing it because it's so very different from everything else I've played. I'm not very far in just yet and my only complaint so far is that I'd wish the game would lay off the sexual innuendo just a bit or to at least be a little more mature about it.

----------


## DaedalusMkV

> I'm playing nirvanA Initiative, but the full title of the game according to Steam apparently includes The Somnium Files in its prefix. Probably to indicate it's the sequel. 
> 
> Aiba's been a bit of a goofball in the first somnium so far. Honestly, all the characters seem a bit of a goofball. They have a habit of just throwing really weird things out there completely out of nowhere. It really feels like one of those games I shouldn't take too seriously and I'm mostly playing it because it's so very different from everything else I've played. I'm not very far in just yet and my only complaint so far is that I'd wish the game would lay off the sexual innuendo just a bit or to at least be a little more mature about it.


Uh. So, sadly, you wish will not be granted. At all. Well, it gets a bit better in the second half of the game, but... Oof, you're not going to be a fan of Tama. Or Mama and her milky balls... Or game 2 Date. Or... Yeah, they're really, really bad for it in NI. The first game had quite a bit of it, but it's relentless in NI.

Also, I really, really would recommend playing the first game before the second if you're going to play them at all. It's just a much better game experience overall, at least IMO.

But yeah, you can't take anyone seriously in the AI games. At all. And NI is much worse about it than Somnium Files.

----------


## Cespenar

Somnium Files was cool and all, but I keep getting disinterested in the plot in all of these "branching realities" games, no matter how good the writing is in the day-to-day reading part. It's just that the discontinuity really cripples one's investment in the plot.

Same in the 999 series, etc.

----------


## DaedalusMkV

> Somnium Files was cool and all, but I keep getting disinterested in the plot in all of these "branching realities" games, no matter how good the writing is in the day-to-day reading part. It's just that the discontinuity really cripples one's investment in the plot.
> 
> Same in the 999 series, etc.


Honestly, for me the only time it gets distracting is when you get to a point where you just get a 'can't progress here yet, go somewhere else' screen on one of the routes. Like, if a route ends with a time bomb with a code and the character goes 'oh shoot if only I had the code to disarm it we could get somewhere' and then explodes that's one thing. But some of these games just switch to a white screen and tell you to come back later once you've experienced Route F. 

*Spoiler: Minor spoilers for the Nonary Games series*
Show

I'm okay with nonlinear storytelling. It's one of the big selling points of video games in the first place; the ability to affect the outcome yourself. The 'branching realities' games tend to just be that normal multiple-ending scenario where they lock the golden ending behind getting the rest of the endings first. And for the most part the 999 games nail it; the first game only has a couple of branching points in the whole game, the conditions for where branches occur are obvious and you try again by loading a save and/or starting over. The only rough part is when you go to the true ending before getting the main bad end and it just ends on the coffin and tells you to come back later. VLR provides continuity between branches relatively early on, making it something akin to a groundhog loop scenario as a changing protagonist undertakes repeating events looking for a way out of the loop, and always justifies the endpoint of every loop. Zero Time Dilemma, admittedly, got a bit more hamfisted with it because Uchikoshi was getting a bit too into the nonlinear storytelling at that point and *really* didn't want the player to have an easy time piecing the timeline together for some reason. It's a bit of a bad habit of his, along with just sticking in some sexual innuendo every time he's not sure what other dialogue to use during a scene.


Maybe it's just because I played a lot of RPGs with multiple endings as a child who wasn't the best at them and often had to try several times to get the 'right' ending, but I've never had a problem with a story being written that way on purpose.

----------


## Cespenar

It must be okay with a lot of people, since there are a lot of examples of that trope. Mostly from japanese games though, for some reason.

----------


## NeoVid

The only game along those lines that I've played in a long time was Beacon Pines, and it was completely up front with "Come back to the story branching points later, once you've uncovered more options."

----------


## Cygnia

Well, my new addiction is now Sentinels of the Multiverse... :Small Red Face:

----------


## AlanBruce

Decided to go back and play FF7 Remake after a 2 year hiatus, since I uploaded my save file to the new PS5 and wished to see the visual improvement.

The game looks as stunning as it did back on PS4. Maybe even better. I had to look up some guides on where to find specific materia (some are a pain to acquire, but well worth it). I finished the game and found myself in a pretty good spot

And then I decided to play the game again on Hard Mode.

I certainly had forgotten hiw utterly punishing some of the bosses can be in that mode. Im halfway through the game and ablut to go into the Wall Market section, where I foresee a lot of pain with the Colosseum boss.

----------


## Zevox

> Decided to go back and play FF7 Remake after a 2 year hiatus, since I uploaded my save file to the new PS5 and wished to see the visual improvement.
> 
> The game looks as stunning as it did back on PS4. Maybe even better. I had to look up some guides on where to find specific materia (some are a pain to acquire, but well worth it). I finished the game and found myself in a pretty good spot
> 
> And then I decided to play the game again on Hard Mode.
> 
> I certainly had forgotten hiw utterly punishing some of the bosses can be in that mode. Im halfway through the game and ablut to go into the Wall Market section, where I foresee a lot of pain with the Colosseum boss.


Oh yeah, prepare for some pain there. Fighting that boss on hard was what really sold me on the game's combat system, above anything I'd experienced before it. It will definitely make you learn the game's mechanics well to conquer it.

----------


## AlanBruce

> Oh yeah, prepare for some pain there. Fighting that boss on hard was what really sold me on the game's combat system, above anything I'd experienced before it. It will definitely make you learn the game's mechanics well to conquer it.


Just had a few trial runs vs Hell House. You can stagger it by using the right elemental spells against its windiw colors- especially when it begins to shift barriers. That part is manageable with the right Materia loadout.

Having to deal with Tonberries at the first and second half of the match, with surprise appearances from the two mechs in the final stretch I was not ready for that.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Well the sword combat in Skyward Sword is just getting more and more annoying. It's great in theory, but the enemies can change which way they're blocking in the middle of an attack. A bit of bad luck can see me easily down four hearts and spamming shield bash just to get a stun.

I'm just before the third dungeon, and apart from the sword combat (which probably just needs slightly faster animations) it's probably the best 3D Zelda I've played. I do wish that Skyloft was a bit smaller, but I prefer the separated 'city' and more dungeon like overworld to the relatively barren overworlds of other Zelda games. I also really like the Adventure Pouch and breakable shields, although I could do with the standard wooden shield having a bit more durability. It feels more like I'm preparing to go on an adventure, and having to judge what potions, items, and medals I need and if I can forgo the safety net of a spare shield. The addition of a dodge move so you have some kind of defence when your shield is broken would be lovely, but as enemies aren't that aggressive the game is still perfectly playable without one.


I'm also doing another playthrough of Dragon Age: Origins, because I realised I've never seen Warden Alastair in the sequels, and felt like doing another Mage run. I'm not sure that the series could have another companion like Morrigan or Sten, Morrigan's morality is significantly against most of the party's (including the tank and healer) while Sten's approval gains are somewhat no intuitive. Oh, Sten's relatively easy to please, he wants you to act like a commander, listen to his advice, and put your foot down if he steps out of line, but it's also easy to lose. I still walked out of Redcliffe with a net plus, but I'm probably going to have to shove cake in his face before the day is out.

----------


## Cespenar

Tried something called Strange Horticulture. It's a fun short botanist simulator/puzzle/VN, and honestly more enjoyable than the other "alchemist sim"s out there IMO. 

You basically collect, catalogue and suggest people new and exotic plants based on vague clues and descriptions found in your hand-me-down botany handbook. There are also some branching choices and multiple endings, I guess.

----------


## Cygnia

Got that on my wishlist right now.

Was gifted a copy of "Celeste" and splurged on more of the SotM DLCs, Elsinore, Chatventures, Fit For a King and Recettear during the Steam Sale.  *sighs*

----------


## Sermil

Finally finished _Metroid Dread_ on normal. Generally fun but the last boss was a lot.

*Spoiler: Ending cutscene*
Show

Oh no! That was a load-bearing boss!

----------


## tonberrian

Brother got me Persona 5 Royal for Christmas. I beat regular persona 5 when it came out on ps4, but it's been a while and I never touched Royal before.

----------


## Resileaf

> Finally finished _Metroid Dread_ on normal. Generally fun but the last boss was a lot.
> 
> *Spoiler: Ending cutscene*
> Show
> 
> Oh no! That was a load-bearing boss!


What Metroid final boss isn't?

----------


## DigoDragon

Gifted Amori to my child for Christmas, and realized I had some money in my Steam account, so I bought Satisfactory for myself. Scratches that itch the way Minecraft did. I enjoy exploring to find the hard drives (and then getting viciously mailed by something, lol).

Also got Thimbleweed Park. Looks interesting.





> The OTHER thing I'll do, since my local fletcher wants flint, is take 3-4 full stacks of gravel, turn them into a single stack 192-256 blocks high, and burn through a couple stone shovels getting to the ground, gathering flint as I go.


I did that once with an Efficiency V shovel and managed to deal a lot of fall damage to myself in the process. XD

----------


## Lord Raziere

Finally finished Mass Effect: Legendary Edition to usher in the new year.

My thoughts:
when I was younger, I never played Mass Effect 3. I played 1 and 2, and probably intended to get the third one until I heard about the bad endings. So I got a mod to get a good ending for this. But a game isn't just about the ending, but about the journey to it. Say what you will about ME's plot, but its worldbuilding, characters and side stories are good even to this day. I played a mostly paragon shepard with some renegade actions, mostly "Han shot first" kind of stuff. the ending I modded in made sure everyone lived- the AIs and the organic races both, while destroying the reapers. 

replaying it the reason I think Bioware rpgs and Mass Effect in particular is that they have certain....verisimilitude, realism, whatever you want to call it, to them that breaks down the dramatic tropes and examines and displays the people and situation underneath. Commander Shepard is an action hero but the person underneath all the action and heroics is what is focused on, and how while their fighting skills does a lot, who she is as a person, what decisions she makes, what connections she forms is what truly makes an impact upon the galaxy and everyone around her. the Citadel DLC is a good example of this, as the characters are shown what they are like outside a military work environment and who they are as people, while people acting like action heroes in universe are seen as silly and ridiculous, and the conversations about how to get things done make it all seem believable. Bioware was really good at presenting a world that seemingly functions like a world without leaning into hero/protagonist logic too much, but without denying the player the opportunity for heroism. Shepard is never a chosen one or presented as meant to do all this- just that they're the person that ended up doing this, and they keep doing his because they choose to. I salute the sacrifice of Mordin and Legion, great characters they were. 

My Shepard romanced Liara, then Tali then Liara again, cured the genophage, brought peace to the Geth and the Quarians and so much more. they headshotted people to death with a sniper rifle across the galaxy and united people to save it. If I have any complaints its that the mods probably made it a little buggy a couple times and for some reason I either missed Tali on the invite list for the party or she wasn't on it to begin with, which makes me a little peeved. also I wish I could've found a mod to get rid of the child dreams entirely, but whatever.

ultimately, whatever you think of the story, Mass Effect are good games in my opinion and all it really took was a change at the end to make me play the whole thing and have fun with it. the shooter combat looking back on it, doesn't feel all that different going between games all at once, through ME3's is snappier than ME2's I think.

But I'm finally finished with this series, and thus now it goes on my Steam shelf of completed games forevermore, perhaps one day I'll play it again but it won't be any time soon. Any claim that there is a game after this are most certainly lies and I will not humor them. Mass Effect Legendary Edition for me, is Done.

My next journey? Is to GreedFall.

Happy New Year.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Honestly, if I was to mod ME3s ending all I'd do is*Spoiler*
Show

have the Crucible fire as Andersen and Shepard die, with you never learning the actual effects of the weapon. Then after a second or two of silence roll the Stargazer scene. Thematically the game's concluded and the ending is satisfying and emotionally consistent up until that last five minutes with the Catalyst and the space magic.

Yeah, it's not a happy ending, Garrus is going to be going through a lot of pain now his girlfriend is dead. But honestly I don't think the game needs a conclusion beyond 'the Crucible succeeds/fails, Shepard dies'.

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## Lord Raziere

Nah.

Your thinking too thematically.

Mass Effect's is a video game where you play a badass galaxy-traveling secret agent action hero with a crew of outcasts. you don't give gamers an unambiguously positive reward for their efforts, most of them are gonna feel cheated. thats the whole problem with the three endings in the first place. the Stargazer scene is just as unsatisfying as the first three. the ending you propose would be fine for a book focusing on how those who sacrifice themselves for a better tomorrow don't get to see the fruits of their labor, but with a videogame? people put effort, time and honing a skill into it, put time into beating this and that. same principle as running a roleplaying campaign: the GM and the players have to agree on the story being told, and players generally want a positive outcome for the characters they create.

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## Eldan

I have a real thing for main characters who die in the end. I'd say most of my favorite stories end that way.

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## GloatingSwine

Moreover if you sell your videogame on the choices the player can make, you need to track out the consequences of those choices.

ME3's ending needed Fallout style ending slides for the whole trilogy's worth of significant things the player had fiddled with and how they changed the galaxy, and the entire game from Earth onwards needed to call attention to the effect of every war asset that the game had tracked.

Even if one of the endings was "activate the Crucible and Shepard and Andersen watch it fire as they die" and it did all the rest that would have been fine.

There shouldn't have been different colours of space magic, the Crucible should have just made the Reapers vulnerable to whatever fleet the player had brought somehow and the level of war assets and specifics of what the player had done and which ones they had brought should have made the difference from there (up to and including "mutual annihilation but the next cycle will be free" as the minimal ending).

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## Anonymouswizard

I'm think thematically because if I don't the story (that bit Bioware fans tend to claim to care about) fall flat on it's face at the eleventh hour. I also disagree with the assumption that players of a game need to be rewarded with a triumphant victory, my success and Shepard's success are not inherently aligned. My success is beating the theoretically most difficult challenge in the game and getting to see the conclusion, for good or ill.

The issue is that Bioware wrote themselves into a corner. The entire game is getting bleaker and bleaker, with your choices either paying off and letting you claw a millimetre closer to freedom or showing their consequences and making things harder. By the time of the final mission five major homeworks have come under attack and likely sustained massive environmental damage, significant portions of every major series have been killed or harvested, and it's pretty clear that everybody who lands on earth is unlikely to come back. You kind of can't have a happy ending without remaining tonally consistent.

If you want to go with the whole 'choices matter' thing give the option for Shepard to fail. Let the choices influence the ending, instead of just giving us an Endingtron 5,000,000. I totally agree that proper ending slides, as diverse as those in DA:O, would have been much better than the brief overviews we got, possibly narrated by Mr Aldrin.

----------


## Zombimode

> replaying it the reason I think Bioware rpgs and Mass Effect in particular is that they have certain....verisimilitude, realism, whatever you want to call it, to them that breaks down the dramatic tropes and examines and displays the people and situation underneath. Commander Shepard is an action hero but the person underneath all the action and heroics is what is focused on, and how while their fighting skills does a lot, who she is as a person, what decisions she makes, what connections she forms is what truly makes an impact upon the galaxy and everyone around her. the Citadel DLC is a good example of this, as the characters are shown what they are like outside a military work environment and who they are as people, while people acting like action heroes in universe are seen as silly and ridiculous, and the conversations about how to get things done make it all seem believable. Bioware was really good at presenting a world that seemingly functions like a world without leaning into hero/protagonist logic too much, but without denying the player the opportunity for heroism. Shepard is never a chosen one or presented as meant to do all this- just that they're the person that ended up doing this, and they keep doing his because they choose to. I salute the sacrifice of Mordin and Legion, great characters they were.


Lord Raziere, I just wanted to say Thank You for writing this.

For some years now there seems to be a lot of criticism regarding the Mass Effect trilogy and the narrative of "Mass Effect had never been a good game" - which to me has gotten really tiresome.
I think your description is spot-on why Mass Effect succeeds on providing such a remarkable experience. And of course: FemShep is TrueShep!

And have fun with GreedFall. Judging from your post I think there is a good chance you will enjoy your stay on Teer Fradee  :Small Smile: 


I've just finished the main campaign of *King Arthur: Knight's Tale*
Overall, Knight's Tale has been a pretty great game! I wholeheartedly recommend it.

Knight's Tale takes place on Avalon, the afterlife/ghost world of arthurian/britannian myth. I usually don't care for Dark Souls-style "dead worlds" but it worked for me in this game.
The art direction is amazing, the whole audio-visual presentation is great.

I also enjoyed Mordred as the main character. I managed to drive a pretty consistent* lane of a harsh and pragmatic ruler who might sacrifice individual lives and the well-being of his subjects if that is what the situation demands, but who is not cruel for cruelties sake. And someone for that his knightly title still means something. You might condemn my Mordred for his ambition, lack of compassion and will to rule, but you can't say that he isn't a man of honor.
I also took pride it fighting all duels (yes, the game has duels) personally.

But the presentation and refreshing main character are not the reasons why you stick for 80-100+ hours with this game.
The gameplay is what really sells it.

First, what to expect: Knight's Tale might be called an RPG, but it is an RPG in the same sense as the old Gold Box (Pool of Radiance etc.) or dungeon crawlers like Lands of Lore are RPGs. It is NOT an RPG like Mass Effect, Tyranny or Witcher. 
Instead it is turn-based battles pretty much all the time. Plus some equipment management.

But the gameplay of these turn-based battles is one of the best there is. It's in the same league as Divinity Original Sin 2.
It is using side-based initiative with the expectation that the player's side usually (but not always) acts first. Personally I prefer individual initiative but side-based initiative has some qualities on its own: there is often a strong focus on problem-solving and optimizing your turn. How fun and successful that is really depends on what your characters can do. This is an area where Knight's Tale shines: characters have varied abilities and generally feel fun to use. Knight's Tale very much goes against the design principle that everything has to be "balanced" with only marginal differences and boring abilities. Instead it fully embraces qualitative differences and has a strong enough game design to make it all work**.

The battles are a blast to play - sure, you could see them as "puzzles", but they are not abstract ones. Instead, positioning, direction and the battlefield features as well as the abilities of your characters and the enemies are what is important. One battle comes into mind that took place at a Stonehege-style stone circle with the enemies approaching from outside the circle. I used the obstructing features of the stones to constantly outmaneuver the superior foes - the whole scene had a very Conanesque vibe to it (if you know Conan, you know the scene that I'm referring to).

During the later half I started to "breeze" through many encounters, often achieving "perfect" first turn victories: killing all enemies during my first turn without them acting at all. To me that was ok because I actually had to put in the work to achieve those victories.
And this is just the consequence of a system that relies so much on player skill.
I played on "Moderate" difficulty, which is between "Normal" and "Hard". It was patched in after the release as a reaction to the feedback that the difference between "normal" and "hard" was just to steep.

After beating main campaign there is still a fixed number of "endgame" missions. So there is still some content for me to go through. But I think I will save those for when I need some cool fantasy action to unwind after a stressful day of work.
Right now, my appetite for turn-based fantasy battles (or any kind of combat, really) has been thoroughly sated  :Small Smile: 

*the Red Knight recruitment mission was a exception - seeing that I didn't even made use of the Red Knight this mission is the only thing that I actually regret.

**sure, not all companions are created equal - but first, the one at the bottom are the outliers (and they are still pretty useable - just not _as_ good as the higher tier companions), and second, the stronger companions tend to be the more well-known and mythical figures of the arthurian mythology. So what if Sir Lancelot or Morgana le Fay are stronger companions then a Sir Tristan who really has seen better days? They should be!


Which is why I have picked up *Norco* at the GoG winter sale.
Norco is a pixel-art point&click adventure. It seem to lean strongly into the "artsy", depressive and somewhat surreal direction.
The art, music and themes I have been subjected to during the first hour or so surely were depressing. So this seems to be a "fun" ride  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Zevox

Since Christmas I've been playing through Marvel's Midnight Suns. Which is pretty good, honestly, with a couple of caveats.

First caveat: it is not "X-Com, but with superheroes," despite who it's made by. It's turn-based strategy gameplay, sure, and visually you can see some X-Com DNA in there; but gameplay-wise, it's a whole other ball game.

Second caveat: its tone is very much based on the MCU (albeit darker at times than the MCU usually is), so if you don't like that, that could be a problem for you. There will be a lot of snark, especially from Tony Stark. Fortunately, I'm fine with this.

Getting into it though, the gameplay in it is pretty darn engaging. There's a lot of differences compared to X-Com, so just to try to summarize:
 - Fights take place on small maps, and there's no fog of war. Every opponent is visible right away. These are quick brawls with large groups of foes you're fighting, not extended crawls to take a map from your enemies.
 -- Related: there will be enemy reinforcements coming in every turn (at least for five turns or so, there is a limit), so while enemies aren't ever hidden, you aren't seeing everything you'll have to fight right from turn 1.
 - Not all enemies have health. There are enemies who just automatically drop in a single hit, regardless of how much damage it does. These mooks are there as filler, essentially, and to force you to consider whether to expend resources on them. They don't do as much damage as the "real" enemies that have health bars, but leaving a couple of them up may add up to taking as much damage as one of the "real" enemies would do, so you are incentivized to figure out efficient ways to deal with them. A lot of enemy reinforcements often consist mainly of these, though you will certainly see "real" enemies among reinforcement waves too.
 - Your options during combat are determined mostly by cards. Each hero brings a "deck" of 8 cards with them (which you can of course modify and power up over time), and you bring three heroes into each mission, for a total of 24 cards. You draw 5 (or as many as are needed to get your hand size to 5) at the start of each turn, and can play 3 per turn by default, though there are ways to manipulate that. It does not matter which hero's cards you're using, the turn is for the team, not the hero, and not every hero needs to act. You also get two "redraws" per turn - tossing a card back and drawing a new one - if you're not happy with your options. A lot of the game is in working with whatever you get to do as much in a turn as you can.
 -- Cards come in three types: attack, skill, and heroism. Attack cards are what it sounds like, they do damage in some way, though that's rarely all they do. Skill cards are your support cards: buffs, debuffs, card draw, and other assorted special effects. Heroism cards are you big, powerful moves, but they cost heroism, a resource that your attack and skill cards build up when played (normally attacks build 1 heroism each, and skills 2).
 - There are also stage elements you can interact with - rocks you can toss at enemies, explosives you can set off, electric generators you can knock enemies into to stun them, and so forth. Doing so usually costs heroism, however.
 - Movement mostly happens based on the cards you play - your character will move up to attack enemies, either in close or from a specified distance depending on whether the attack is close-range or a projectile in nature, and some skills might let you reposition more precisely. You only get one free move per turn, but it lets you move any character to anywhere on the map. 

There's honestly a lot of variety to the card effects in the game, and even those with similar effects can be used in different ways. The game does a lot with its knockback effect, which, as you might guess, sends enemies flying in a direction; how far and how much control you have over the direction varies depend on the ability. You can knock enemies into objects or each other for more damage, knock them into explosives to set off that explosive without the normal heroism cost, knock them into something electrified to stun them, or (after you get some upgrades) knock them into one of your teammates for that teammate to get a free hit for more damage than knocking them into another enemy would do plus give you a card draw. Or just knock them into a pit for a potential instant-KO (percent chance based on their health that they fall in) - and some of your teammates have cards that can generate such pits if the map doesn't include them already. Or of course maybe you're not knocking them into anything, just repositioning them so they get caught in an AoE you're lining up better. 

Every character actually plays quite differently, too, despite there being at least a dozen of them. For instance, Iron Man does a lot of knockback effects via repulsor blasts, but also gets to power up his cards if he spends redraws on them - though that has the double-edged sword that they won't be redrawn when you do that, just powered up; Tony Stark's kind of selfish that way. Doctor Strange, meanwhile, is more of a support character, with a lot of his best cards being his skills, which can enhance the damage your other cards do, draw you more cards, or increase the number of cards you get to play in a turn. This makes him work very well with characters like Blade, Wolverine, and Spider-Man, who get the "chain" effect on some of their cards, essentially allowing them to multi-hit either one target or different targets, benefiting from Strange's attack buff cards multiple times on a single card. But each of them is quite distinct from the others as well: Blade can inflict Bleed, a damage-over-time effect, and often gets bonuses to his cards based on enemies having that effect on them; Wolverine is good at self-healing, taunting enemies, and counter-attacking enemies who attack him; and Spider-Man is uniquely good at using stage interactables, even having a card whose main effects are to make his next couple of stage interactables cost no heroism and do more damage.

The story is kind of what you might expect if you saw any of the previews. Evil demon lady is resurrected to do evil things, her child (your custom character protagonist, "The Hunter" - that's their actual name, not a title, the game goes out of its way to tell you) who previously defeated her is brought back to help stop her. I'm not done with it yet (though I'm a fair distance in), and it's clearly trying not to be completely straightforward, but it feels like the biggest "surprises" of the game are probably a bit too telegraphed to count as real surprises. Still, it's engaging enough to keep me wanting to play and see the end. There's a friendship system with the characters where you hang out and talk to them as your friendship level goes up, which is nice, particularly for the characters who are less famous and you might not know much about, like Blade, Nico, or... okay, basically all of the Midnight Suns characters, as opposed to their Avengers co-stars, who are the famous ones. It's no Persona in terms of quality, but it's good to have anyway.

All in all, it's no Game of the Year candidate, but I'm enjoying it quite a bit. Kind of like X-Com itself that way, despite not being like X-Com is almost any other way beyond the genre.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Lord Raziere, I just wanted to say Thank You for writing this.
> 
> For some years now there seems to be a lot of criticism regarding the Mass Effect trilogy and the narrative of "Mass Effect had never been a good game" - which to me has gotten really tiresome.
> I think your description is spot-on why Mass Effect succeeds on providing such a remarkable experience. And of course: FemShep is TrueShep!
> 
> And have fun with GreedFall. Judging from your post I think there is a good chance you will enjoy your stay on Teer Fradee


Ah yes, thank you. and Femshep indeed true shep and my lesbian one ending up with cute nerdy alien girls like Liara or Tali just fits for  me. and don't get me wrong, the three endings are indeed a blunder, a big one that I did have to mod out, but everything else is well made and I don't really care if it comes from a fan mod. could it be better done in certain places, in retrospect? Sure. But we have the benefit of hindsight and everything always looks worse through the lens of greater things later accomplished. the setting holds up regardless and if they're being smart about it, any sequel should just ignore the three endings to focus on the politics, individual characters and setting that has always been the strong points of Mass Effect. 

As for Greedfall:
*Spoiler: The Tale of Ensara De Sardet: Adventures in Plague Colonialism, 3 hours in*
Show


Alright fellows, COLONIALISM HO! We set out to the new world to plunder its riches- I mean. Find a cure for the plague we are suffering. Yes. Ensara De Sardet is an Enlightened Rational Lady, a Lady of Science and Guns and totally is focused on that and not leaving this dreary town of mist and brown and her mother who is clearly dying and blind and people and burning things in the street for some reason, to go find some palce better to live than this uuuuh....totally not rubbish town that she grew up in. 

But first we have Important Legately Duties to attend to, (legate in the sense that we're this....governor/diplomat kind of person that seems to be the right hand of the actual governor who seems to be an excitable cousin who is just as ready and willing to leave the rickety brown hellhole that is Serene as Ensara is. bit more childish about it, this Konstantin is, guess she is the big sister of this familial arrangement. but in practice we're the errand girl of various powers.)

We have two important other colonial powers: this religious nation known as Theleme who seem suspect and backwards, and this enlightened scientific Bridge Alliance which seem to be fine chaps who have Done Nothing Wrong whatsoever. like between their stories, she can't possibly believe this charlatan claiming they developed an "intolerance" for their own resistance potion to the plague while claiming these wild tales about Bridge alchemists torturing their fellow man for a cure to it! Thats not how potions work at all, shes know she's an alchemist as well, you build tolerances for things as you acquire taste and become accustomed to them, not get sick from taking more, like how else do you build up a resistance to poison? the Bridge Alliance is an enlightened and rational people they would possibly do that, this charlatan is clearly lying, because his "plague cure" doesn't work and is trying to slander real and honest research into solve this problem, just a criminal to arrest. the papers are admittedly really good forgeries, indistinguishable from the real thing but I can't take these tall tales seriously.

Theleme though, ugh, those religious nuts decrying two honest historians for heresy just for depicting their saints lives accurately, typical. she made sure they escaped by seeking asylum with our good friends the Bridge Alliance then lying about her involvement so as not to endanger Theleme relations. it is not time for a war yet with these zealots.

as for the Nauts, I feel lukewarm, but our .....ugh, _fair city_, has legal dealings with them, the noble did give up his child fair and square and the child themselves is clearly a man in his thirties more used to sailing the seas than being a noble, clearly belongs with those who raised him and is his legal family by all rights and agreements. If lord fontaine wanted a child to raise, he should've just made another one, what is an extra nine months after all? as for those naut guards in that warehouse, uh that was a mistake and she will not speak of it and that Ensara De Sardet learned to be more stealthy and inconspicuous in her less than legal traversal. (I didn't figure out how to stealth until after I killed two naut guards, but I made it up to them by finding Jonas)

after a bit about a stupid cargo and roughing up some merchants to get it, before Ensara can depart she is delayed by this big fearsome beast with wood for armor here and there like its growing off it! It big and scary, but nothing a few shots of her pistol (and some potions because I haven't entirely gotten parrying or dodging down in this game) and some whacks with her sword can't handle. and this new world has more of them? smashing. she will enjoy The Hunt in New Serene then.

and now, Ensara De Sardet is in the new world! time to finally go forth and exploit and plunder all the riches we ca-
*meets Siora, instantly falls in love*
I mean.....respect the native people and their way of life as fellow human beings. 

and find a cure to the plague, that I'm sure our enlightened friends the Bridge Alliance will happily help us with their science and oh, they are in conflict with Siora's people oh dear this must be some sort of misunderstanding, surely the Lions are mistakenly attacking these enlightened scientific folk for some silly mishap and I can clear this up and we can work together, ahahahaha. also Ensara is apparently has some native Lion descent in her bloodline, most intriguing....perhaps she and her heritage is more tied to this island than she thought. and hopefully she will get answers for that, and for why she seems to have amnesia of all these basic things that she feels she should already know, perhaps some unknown malady struck her mind yesterday....

----------


## NeoVid

> Also got Thimbleweed Park. Looks interesting.


I liked Thimbleweed Park a lot. The characters really grabbed me and I was looking forward to seeing how all their stories concluded...
*Spoiler*
Show

Then the big twist to the setting ended up with none of their storylines actually getting resolved.  If the game had been played straight instead of having the twist, I would've liked it a lot more, and this is from someone who usually likes the kind of game Thimbleweed was playing on the player.

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## Form

I've been working my way through Somnium Files - nirvanA Initiative and I have to say that the writing is pretty poor. I've gotten to Lien's somnium and opened the gold safe. The game is rife with contrived coincidences and developments that are not explained or made plausible. That said, I do enjoy the somnium puzzles and I am strangely invested in the game's overall plot. I want to unveil the mystery! Even if it is crazy and/or stupid! Or get to that point in a silly way! It's one of those things where you should just turn your brain off most of the time and go with it. 

*Spoiler: Examples of what I'd consider poor writing*
Show

At some point Ryuki is at the shrine and he takes out a broken (pocket?) watch and suddenly tells us a bit about his brother and his desire for justice. Pretty standard stuff, but my issue here is that it comes completely out of nowhere. He just... suddenly decides to tell us about it.

Or the Yakuza guy telling us the rehearsal for the rocket launches is going to be at the Misetan rooftop amusement park. I guess Tearer paid him off or something to tell us that??? Instead of messaging us? Except Tearer did not seem to want us to know? A random guy just tells us where to look and there's no explanation for why he knows that, why he tells us or why he expects to find us at the Lemniscate reception. Maybe he was just hoping the president of Lemniscate would walk in at some point.

Or the Naix guys who just show up at the shrine to fight Mizuki. They're just... there. For some reason. Honestly, all the fight scenes feel pretty gratuitous and come out of nowhere.

Or Ryuki encountering the masked woman at the warehouse district at some point. She whispers to herself for some reason, even though Ryuki is right there. It's just another contrived way of giving the player a reason to look somewhere that they otherwise would not have.

Also, Ryuki really shouldn't still be a part of ABIS after six years of still not having his act together, much less still have his gun. He even shoots at a civilian with it at some point and they still don't take away his gun!


I also have issues with how the game handles the relationship between Lien and Kizunah. That's the one thing that really bugs me.

*Spoiler: Lien and Kizunah*
Show

Let's be honest here: Lien is a stalker. I do not appreciate the way the game whitewashes Lien's stalking of Kizunah by playing it off as romantic and rewarding Lien with having his obsession fulfilled.

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## DaedalusMkV

> I've been working my way through Somnium Files - nirvanA Initiative and I have to say that the writing is pretty poor.


Pretty much all your examples are true, yep. Contrived is an excellent way to describe a lot of the events of NI. One or two of the issues you've had will be properly explained later, but a lot of things in the game simply happen because the writer needs them to so the plot can advance, or because the director wanted to stick an action scene here (and the action scenes vary from 'not awful' to 'why are we doing this now? This makes no sense at all!'). There are still a couple of big twists coming for you, as I expect you would expect, and the big twists are both impressive and well set-up, but the game's plot really is pretty tortured at times. 

When my friend and I played the game we eventually got to the point that we explained a lot of it with "ABIS is terrible at everything except hindering the protagonists, and the protagonists are very nearly as good at sabotaging themselves". 

The first game was not nearly so bad about it. It was much more tightly written, and the villain much more plausible. Tearer is... Often hard to stomach considering how much of a villain sue he gets to be at times. And you haven't even seen the worst of it yet.

Bonus points: All of the relationships in Nirvana Initiative are deeply problematic at best, and straight-up creepy at worst. Not just Kizuna and Lien.

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## Form

> Pretty much all your examples are true, yep. Contrived is an excellent way to describe a lot of the events of NI. One or two of the issues you've had will be properly explained later, but a lot of things in the game simply happen because the writer needs them to so the plot can advance, or because the director wanted to stick an action scene here (and the action scenes vary from 'not awful' to 'why are we doing this now? This makes no sense at all!'). There are still a couple of big twists coming for you, as I expect you would expect, and the big twists are both impressive and well set-up, but the game's plot really is pretty tortured at times. 
> 
> When my friend and I played the game we eventually got to the point that we explained a lot of it with "ABIS is terrible at everything except hindering the protagonists, and the protagonists are very nearly as good at sabotaging themselves". 
> 
> The first game was not nearly so bad about it. It was much more tightly written, and the villain much more plausible. Tearer is... Often hard to stomach considering how much of a villain sue he gets to be at times. And you haven't even seen the worst of it yet.


I'm a little further in now and have received additional revelations. My impression is that the central mystery is interesting and stuff relevant to it tends to line up well, it's just that the process of unveiling that mystery is where the game tends to drop the ball. And yeah, I too am under the impression ABIS is... not a competent organization.

I'll probably pick up the first game as well. Some stuff will be spoilered because I played the sequel first, but so be it. Maybe I'll be able to better understand the context of certain plot developments in that game as a result. At first I figured I'd be interested in only 1 game like this, but the central mystery has pulled me in enough that I'm curious about the first game as well.




> Bonus points: All of the relationships in Nirvana Initiative are deeply problematic at best, and straight-up creepy at worst. Not just Kizuna and Lien.


I think I see what you mean. Kizunah and Lien just stood out the most to me.

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## Kareeah_Indaga

> Since Christmas I've been playing through Marvel's Midnight Suns. Which is pretty good, honestly, with a couple of caveats.


I'm trying not to spoil it for myself so apologies if you answered this in your post already: is it worth it? Steam sent me a notification that it's 33% off right now. On the one hand, I was putting off buying it because the price point was too high given my battered Christmas budget, and this is much better. On the other hand, it's on sale a LOT earlier than I was expecting, which is kind of concerning by itself.

----------


## Zevox

> I'm trying not to spoil it for myself so apologies if you answered this in your post already: is it worth it? Steam sent me a notification that it's 33% off right now. On the one hand, I was putting off buying it because the price point was too high given my battered Christmas budget, and this is much better. On the other hand, it's on sale a LOT earlier than I was expecting, which is kind of concerning by itself.


Oh, there's no spoilers in my post - even when I mentioned the story I intentionally left details out - so you should be fine to read it. Personally, yes, I think it's worth it; I'm certainly enjoying it a fair bit. If the couple of caveats I noted at the top of my post don't sound like deal-breakers to you, I'd say give it a go.

----------


## MCerberus

> Oh, there's no spoilers in my post - even when I mentioned the story I intentionally left details out - so you should be fine to read it. Personally, yes, I think it's worth it; I'm certainly enjoying it a fair bit. If the couple of caveats I noted at the top of my post don't sound like deal-breakers to you, I'd say give it a go.


On a side note does anyone get the feeling that Firaxis has no idea how to end the XCom trilogy and are actively avoiding starting the project?

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

> Oh, there's no spoilers in my post - even when I mentioned the story I intentionally left details out - so you should be fine to read it. Personally, yes, I think it's worth it; I'm certainly enjoying it a fair bit. If the couple of caveats I noted at the top of my post don't sound like deal-breakers to you, I'd say give it a go.


Excellent. I'll give it a go then.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Lord Raziere

Enjoying Greedfall, I'm getting better at the combat system after fighting repeatedly in the arena and I find that "shoot people in the face then whack them with my sword a lot" works a lot of the time. I'm investing a lot into charisma as this seems to be a very faction/reputation based game where you have to balance many peoples desires and needs without looking bad in the process, though I'm wanting to get things so I can lockpick and craft things better. 

*Spoiler: The Story of Ensara de Sardet: New Serene Noir, 6 hours in*
Show


Ensara finds herself in the town of New Serene, given a command to go forth and diplomatically speak with Theleme and Bridge, while also managing the relations with the native populace. But before that, she decides to deal with the problems of the city itself. After all, it would be a bad look diplomatically if their town wasn't accommodating to those who visit it, no?

and there faces her newest most implacable foe yet: Institutional Corruption. At first she thought it was a small matter of a native not knowing what the idea of a patent was and thus getting in trouble with the guard, but then his friend got arrested by the guard and got sent to fight in the most civilized and enlightened of punishments for delivering goods illegally: fighting in the arena that we apparently have. the Lady Ensara was outraged. How dare they force this upon them! they would not understand the civilized and refined nature of fighting animals and people in a pit for others amusement. So she fought alongside him in the arena to free him because clearly as a civilized and enlightened lady only she can properly help him to get out of it. and thought that was the end of that.

What was that Siora? your people don't have arenas? Wot? How are the punishment arenas barbaric? Its perfectly fair and gentlepersonly! 

But then came the fact that members of the guard, have been extorting merchants under the orders of some silver-coin handling jerk named Egon. or the fact that a new recruit had just been randomly reassigned to some phantom regiment to go raiding Bridge caravans, and that both of these are being kept hush-hush! Ensara is rapidly starting to think that the commanders of the coin guard are either incompetent or corrupt themselves to allow all this. She practically had to become a private detective convincing, bribing and persuading people either through words or force to get all this information to light!

unfortunately both the Egon case and the phantom regiment case will take more time to uncover more information so that we can properly root out this corruption. In the meantime, we went on the diplomatic mission to try and convince Siora's mother to stop this war business but when we got there, she was already dead from a battle with Bridge forces! oh dear. thankfully Ensara had been training her words to become as honeyed as a beehive and her tongue silvered as cutlery so that she convince the natives not to seek revenge, further conflict would be quite bad indeed and doing so yielded information about her mother was was not dead, but rather taken! Furthermore, there were ruins depicting some big being, and Siora explained how her people had a long ago myth about some giant being they summoned to get rid of some old civilization that arrived on their shores and began industrializing just...like....we are.....

This is quite a troubling matter and Konstantin needs to know about it. the natives are completely capable of manipulating nature with magic, and if this story is true, potentially all three colonies of the island are in grave danger. This is no longer just about an affectation for Siora, but something that poses a danger to her entire job as legate! But she must maintain good relations and set about trying to free Siora's mother from an outpost first. If the natives have no reason to call upon this being again, perhaps she can keep the situation from spiraling out of control.....

----------


## Zevox

> On a side note does anyone get the feeling that Firaxis has no idea how to end the XCom trilogy and are actively avoiding starting the project?


It's a trilogy now?

----------


## warty goblin

> On a side note does anyone get the feeling that Firaxis has no idea how to end the XCom trilogy and are actively avoiding starting the project?


I think they're basically up a tree at this point, in terms of where to take the series. The story is easy enough- oh look, more aliens. But mechanics are hard. XCOM was a watershed in tactics games, and 2 added a lot to that formula. But it's the same formula, and the tactics genre has really bloomed and moved beyond the XCOM move and shoot in that order shtick at this point. There's been a ton of titles since then, and most of them are more flexible, more dynamic, and less, for wont of a better term, so stiffnecked and formal. I for one would need a hell of a pitch for going back to that after stuff like Gears Tactics, which is simply a smoother, less fuzzy and better tactical game.

----------


## MCerberus

> It's a trilogy now?


I mean unless the ocean is glowing purple for no reason and the ethereals were running from nothing there was clear intent for an additional part to the story.

----------


## Resileaf

> I mean unless the ocean is glowing purple for no reason and the ethereals were running from nothing there was clear intent for an additional part to the story.


Isn't that something that Chimera Squad has been continuing? It's the aftermath of 2 at least, so it's definitely a continuation.

----------


## MCerberus

> Isn't that something that Chimera Squad has been continuing? It's the aftermath of 2 at least, so it's definitely a continuation.


Angry Viper Adventures featuring other characters I guess was advertised as a test-bed for changes to the formula and has a very limited scope in terms of story. The only actual XCom member that shows up is Col. Kelly, who takes the role of The Spokesman. Although cats not liking Sectoids because they consider them 'competition' was gold.

----------


## Zevox

> I mean unless the ocean is glowing purple for no reason and the ethereals were running from nothing there was clear intent for an additional part to the story.


Sure, they were obviously teasing a future sequel at the end of 2 there. I guess I see a distinction between a third game existing and it being a trilogy, though - a trilogy to me implies a single overarching narrative between the three, which I just don't see with the first two. Mass Effect 1-3 is a trilogy; Dragon Age Origins, 2, and Inquisition are three games in the same series in chronological order, but not a trilogy. X-Com 1, 2, and a hypothetical third feel more like the latter to me, at least at this time.

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

Since theyve now done Midnight Suns in addition to XCOM, its my headcanon that the next game will be a crossover and the Ethereals are running from Knull.

----------


## MCerberus

> Sure, they were obviously teasing a future sequel at the end of 2 there. I guess I see a distinction between a third game existing and it being a trilogy, though - a trilogy to me implies a single overarching narrative between the three, which I just don't see with the first two. Mass Effect 1-3 is a trilogy; Dragon Age Origins, 2, and Inquisition are three games in the same series in chronological order, but not a trilogy. X-Com 1, 2, and a hypothetical third feel more like the latter to me, at least at this time.


I could understand that viewpoints since 2 swerved reallllllllllly hard instead of going into "the war to come" that the Volunteer/Templars depending on the timeline know about. In fact they may avoid the same continuation by distracting us with sea shenanigans. In either case they did deliberately leave the fanbase hanging though.

----------


## zlefin

Is classical music less common in games these days?  I've been wondering this for awhile;  back in my youth, while not super common, classical music showed up a fair bit in games.  These days I hardly ever hear it at all.  So I'm wondering if it's just chance, or if my perception is accurate.

I pondered reasons why this might occur and did come up with some:
The rise of the internet made it easier for people to find other music, or to find someone who can write music just for the game.  Whereas In the old days you'd have to know people in person, and it would be harder to find someone who can write suitable music.

While now, there's probably repositories of free music available, including plenty of new music (I assume, haven't actually looked), in the old days that wouldn't be so true;  in the old days classical music would be the primary source of free music (as in free to put into games without IP issues), and it would be quite obtainable.


It could also be a change in the demographics of those who create the games; or in what they had been exposed to in their lives.

----------


## Cygnia

They finally got the bugs out of those two new levels of Cats In Time, so I was able to finish that.

Then I binged through A Building Full of Cats and A Castle Full of Cats.

Made a _little_ progress in FF8 -- got Pandemona.  I keep getting distracted by Sentinels of the Multiverse though.  And I was gifted/won a game called Celeste that I'm curious about.

----------


## Zombimode

Finished *NORCO*.

A beautiful, depressing, surreal noir-style experience. The pixel-art is gorgeous. The sound design is great. This earns a recommendation from me, at least for people who enjoy this kind of thing.

Rather light on gameplay - it wont't really scratch that point-and-click adventure itch. The game is more of an experience.
It's also short: you can comfortable finish NORCO on a weekend. Total playtime is somewhere in the 10-15 hours mark.


Now, I've turned to *Project Eden* which I've picked up in my end-of-year shopping spre on GoG.
Project Eden is a game from 2001 made by Core Design of Tomb Raider fame. And if you have played any of the original Tomb Raider games, the style is immediately recognizable in Project Eden.

The game is set in in a future where cities have (d)evolved into 40k style Hive Cities: sprawling and vertical, and the lower you get the poorer and more depraved it becomes. I wouldn't call it dystopian or cyberpunk, but this visions future is certainly not an optimistic one.

The player takes command of a squad of police special forces. Everything starts with an incident in the Real Meat factory, there is clearly a mystery which is slowly unfolding.

Gameplay-wise this is a kind of puzzle game with some wonky 3rd person shooter elements. It's a puzzle game because each of your 4 squad members has some unique ability which you have to employ correctly in order to proceed.
The shooter gameplay is pretty basic but I actually like that it is there: it fits the setting and role of the characters and serves as a contrast to the rather static puzzle solving.

That said, this is a game that I will play not for its gameplay but for its setting and story.

----------


## Quizatzhaderac

Jus finished  Nier: Replicant. Getting all five endings involved way too much repetition. Unlike Automata and Drakenguard  3 additional endings pared down the stuff that didn't change for the other endings.

Also playing Earthbound which is good, but has a lot of the problems of that era, like awkward menus or letting your party members be of wildly different levels.

----------


## Zombimode

> Enjoying Greedfall, I'm getting better at the combat system after fighting repeatedly in the arena and I find that "shoot people in the face then whack them with my sword a lot" works a lot of the time. I'm investing a lot into charisma as this seems to be a very faction/reputation based game where you have to balance many peoples desires and needs without looking bad in the process, though I'm wanting to get things so I can lockpick and craft things better.


Oh, absolutely. There are times in game where your relationship with a faction really comes under scrutiny as they ask "how much do we trust this person actually?" and the answer to that question often has drastic consequences.

Greedfall is a game where faction reputation is not just some 30% better prices or the a unique questline or two. No, in Greedfall your reputation literally shapes the story.

Reputation is also not that easy to gain. I _think_ it is possible to achieve perfect relations with all factions, but there is not much room for mistakes.
Your little "missteps" with the Nauts may not be completely irredeemable but may already have some consequences in the mid term.


To me how reputation is handled is one of Greefalls strengths. It makes choices feel "weighty" and makes your successes with a faction feel really earned.

----------


## Triaxx

Sounds like a system that could really, REALLY easily turn into something tedious.

----------


## MinimanMidget

> Is classical music less common in games these days?  I've been wondering this for awhile;  back in my youth, while not super common, classical music showed up a fair bit in games.  These days I hardly ever hear it at all.  So I'm wondering if it's just chance, or if my perception is accurate.
> 
> I pondered reasons why this might occur and did come up with some:
> The rise of the internet made it easier for people to find other music, or to find someone who can write music just for the game.  Whereas In the old days you'd have to know people in person, and it would be harder to find someone who can write suitable music.
> 
> While now, there's probably repositories of free music available, including plenty of new music (I assume, haven't actually looked), in the old days that wouldn't be so true;  in the old days classical music would be the primary source of free music (as in free to put into games without IP issues), and it would be quite obtainable.
> 
> 
> It could also be a change in the demographics of those who create the games; or in what they had been exposed to in their lives.


So you know how all the music in Lemmings is classical? It was originally going to be popular music, because back then, people just put music in games without worrying about copyright. At the last minute, someone was like "copyright exists" so they quickly made a soundtrack out of public domain music.

At a guess, a lot of older games (once they stopped using whatever they wanted) had classical music because it was easier than composing something. These days, I think people see it as cheap, or a sign of a B game. Plus, as you say, there's no shortage of soundtrack conposers around to hire.

----------


## GloatingSwine

The other thing is that back in the day the classical music would be programmed in as MIDI, but these days it's more likely to be a digital recording of a specific performance.

And whilst the classical piece is out of copyright, the specific performance _isn't_. So you can't just grab and use it rights free any more.

----------


## Cespenar

Also, the more known classical pieces are used to death in TV commercials or similar media in the last 2-3 decades, so most of the songs moved from "existing in the common conscious" to "just stop".

Oh, and also also, the subgenre of games in which a classical piece thematically makes sense is really, really tight.

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## Quizatzhaderac

> The other thing is that back in the day the classical music would be programmed in as MIDI, but these days it's more likely to be a digital recording of a specific performance.


Also, I think a lot of classical music works better in that limited format. Many classical pieces were designed to sound good when played by one mediocre person with a piano.

Music designed for recording tends to involve vocals, chords with many notes, or instruments that need to sound different from each other.

----------


## MCerberus

I mean what do we mean by classical? Megalovania has baroque influence, WoW's zone music uses a lot of traditional orchestral composition and instrument sets, and one of the biggest game changers in gaming music was pairing Gregorian chants with electric guitars.

And more directly old-school we have stuff like the Homeworld prequel lean heavily on traditional middle-eastern instrumentation. Or modern pokemon being pretty reliable in incorporating music styles from the real-world equivalent to what the game's region is.

----------


## Zombimode

> And more directly old-school we have stuff like the Homeworld prequel lean heavily on traditional middle-eastern instrumentation.


They stole _that_ song from Platoon! I'm aware that Adagio for Strings exists independently from Platoon and that it's usage in Homeworld, while undoubtedly inspired by Platoon, was _very_ spot-on.

----------


## Gnoman

> I mean what do we mean by classical? Megalovania has baroque influence, WoW's zone music uses a lot of traditional orchestral composition and instrument sets, and one of the biggest game changers in gaming music was pairing Gregorian chants with electric guitars.
> 
> And more directly old-school we have stuff like the Homeworld prequel lean heavily on traditional middle-eastern instrumentation. Or modern pokemon being pretty reliable in incorporating music styles from the real-world equivalent to what the game's region is.


In this case, I think it direct use of "classical" (note, many are not actually Classical) works in the soundtrack. Bad renditions of Hall Of The Mountain King, Blue Danube, Ode to pain Joy, Ride Of The Valkyries, etc used to be universal in game music

----------


## Rodin

> In this case, I think it direct use of "classical" (note, many are not actually Classical) works in the soundtrack. Bad renditions of Hall Of The Mountain King, Blue Danube, Ode to pain Joy, Ride Of The Valkyries, etc used to be universal in game music


*nods*

Another example is the music in the hotel in Quest For Glory IV, which is from the Peer Gynt suite.

The most recent case I can recall (where they aren't explicitly playing the classic piece in-universe) is the original Homeworld, which used Adagio For Strings for the burning of Kharak.  Now I'm curious if there are more recent examples.

----------


## Saambell

I will always remember the use of Symphony Number 9 in E Minor in the game Asura's Wrath for the soundtrack of one of the boss battles. In a very Interactive Anime style game, a fight between the Angry Vengeful Hero Asura and his No Cares Only Fight Mentor Augus, the symphony provides a very stirring background to a climatic showdown. Starting on the moon, with whole chunks getting sliced off, until a lunge from an extending sword drives Asura to the Earth, piercing all the way through to come out the other side of the globe, a bombastic orchestra is a perfect soundtrack to a over the top fight.

----------


## Zevox

Wrapped up Midnight Suns. All in all, I'm fairly impressed and pretty darn happy with it. Gameplay-wise I think they did a real good job - every turn feels like a puzzle to be figured out, every hero feels unique and their mechanics can at times interact in fun ways, there's basically none of the RNG dependency of X-Com to frustrate you outside of the luck of the draw with your cards (which redraws keep from being too bad), the stage elements add quite a bit to it; it's just a fun game to play that I never found got stale, despite the fact that I did some extra grinding towards the end to max out everyone's friendship. There are some individual cards I could point to that feel underpowered and overshadowed, but generally speaking, most seemed good enough to use, depending on how you wanted to build the characters' decks. Oh, and I like how they handle difficulty levels too, with there being a bunch of them, each of which spells out exactly how changes the game - how much extra health and damage enemies get, when the difficulty is going to add more enemies to fights, how much extra rewards you get, etc. Very nice for allowing you to choose just how challenging you want things to be. Oh, and though I'm not going to use it immediately, I like how the New Game+ works - you keep all of the cosmetics you unlocked, friendship levels reached, and all of the heroes you've recruited right from the start*, but character levels and cards are reset, so you still need to power back up rather than just wrecking everything easily (or having everything auto-scaled to high-end levels from the start) and having nothing to do to get stronger but gain levels and maybe refine your cards' mods.

Getting into spoiler territory:
*Spoiler*
Show

Story-wise, the game is just okay on the whole. Like I said earlier, the "twists" are generally a bit too telegraphed to really be surprising - even at the end there, of course Lilith thought she was doing something good, considering so many of her lines to you in your dream pointed to that (even if she was obviously too controlled by Cthon to actually be doing anything but helping him return), and of course the Hunter's collar was going to get broken, given how much emphasis was put on that and the damage it took in your fights with the Fallen. That that would lead to the Hunter becoming Cthon's vessel wasn't a detail I called in advance, but isn't terribly shocking. I do like the sequel tease at the end with Doctor Doom finding the Darkhold (and proclaiming that those who had been using it were "Amateurs") though, him as the villain for a Midnight Suns 2 is an enticing idea.

That said, the writing, despite being generally mediocre, does have its moments here and there. Maybe it's just unfamiliarity with the characters, but I liked the characters I didn't already know much about, especially Nico and Magick (though Magick could stand to be less of a jerk early on). Tony Stark's great discomfort with everything supernatural around him and the behavior that provoked from him felt pretty natural and well-done. And Lilith mind controlling not Hulk, but Bruce Banner, and Bruce's mind staying in the drivers seat even once he went full Fallen Hulk for the third act was a really strong idea on their part. Very interesting to see Bruce's dark side unleashed, and then see him feel extra guilty and uncomfortable once he's released from the mind control specifically because it was him, not the Hulk, who was doing all of that. Also, weirdly, a book club featuring Blade, Captain America, Captain Marvel, and Wolverine was kind of fun. Who knew?

Also, that final fight was pretty awesome, actually. Even with the massive power-up the Hunter got, and the potent special cards you could draw, figuring out how to get through those four waves of the finale wasn't easy. Granted, part of that might be because my four "strongest" characters it pulled for that were three of my least-used who had some of my least refined decks - Iron Man, Blade, and Ghost Rider. Not sure how it picked those out; maybe it was going for highest level, and since I had everyone at the same level, it randomized it? Regardless of that though, the end result was a high-powered finale that was actually a lot of fun and not at all trivial to puzzle my way through, which is definitely what you want out of this kind of thing. 

*Which is especially nice since you don't get to recruit Hulk until right before the final boss fight. If I hadn't spent extra time grinding out friendship levels, I would've hardly used him, and he's pretty darn well-realized with how they did his mechanics and cards.

Apparently the game is getting some DLC at some point, which will add playable characters (Deadpool, Venom, Storm, and for some reason Morbius). If it also adds a side-story with them, or at least additional non-story missions to try, I might just get it, actually. The game's fun enough that I'd spend a little extra for more of it, which is more praise than I honestly expected to have for it. 

I honestly might just be looking forward to a Midnight Suns 2 more than an X-Com 3 at this point. Partly because of the specific thing I mentioned in the spoiler block, but also partly because I think I do like this game's combat system over X-Com's. It gets rid of the frustrating elements of X-Com's combat and adds a lot of fun stuff instead. It's also very different from X-Com's on a fundamental level, so I could see why some others might prefer X-Com's, but at this point, I think I'm sold on Midnight Suns' quick brawls over X-Com's map crawls, personally.

----------


## warty goblin

So speaking of games that get rid of XCOM's annoying random chance, I've been messing around with Warhammer 40000: Chaos Gate: Daemonhunters: Please Let The Title End Now for a bit.

It's very, very XCOM-alike*. You fly around in a strike cruiser dropping Grey Knights on the heads of various plague infected people and plague demons and probably some other bad people with a plague thing going on. But you get 3 AP per dude, and it's a proper AP system, no hidden "actually this action ends your turn" nonsense that I can detect. Also killing dudes sometimes gives you back AP, which means a Space Marine with aggression issues can properly slice his way through lots of chaff enemies. In general actually you just absolutely smash face in an appropriately Space Marine sort of way. And there's very little random chance in combat, attacks always hit, and do predictable damage. There's a bit of chance as critical hits are random, but also abilities that turbo charge your crit rate so if you want to crit, you crit. Half cover reduces damage by half, full cover reduces it by 100%, so that's nice and sensible. It uses XCOM's pod system (unfortunately) but at least tells you where the pods are, so if you trigger two at once that's on you purposely being aggressive and not Jonny Shotgun sticking one toe around the corner of the building. So basically it's XCOM, but like 70% less annoying.

It also leans into making your Space Marines murdering things look as cool as it's (probably not huge) budget allows. So expect all the zooms and slo-mos your nerdy heart could desire, and a veritable rain of cultist limbs. It looks good too, not fantastic technically, but 40K has nothing if not good art design, and the raw pixel pushing is sufficient to make this pleasant on the eyes.

Sadly, it does not eliminate one of XCOM's most annoying features; goddamn NPC advisors who refuse to shut up. It's not as bad as Bradford telling you the mission is beginning like twice per mission, but it's not a million miles off. And being 40K, the writing is best experienced in microdoses, not the occasional exposition slab that gets dumped on your plate. 


*So really, in a case of things coming full circle, it's very Dawn of War 2-alike. Because XCOM is DoW 2, just turn based and with a different license and not as completely utterly perfect and awesome in every way.

----------


## ShneekeyTheLost

So, I've finally completed Crystal Project. It's... certainly not for everyone, I'll get that out of the way right now. If you're looking for AAA title graphics, or hand-holding... you're going to be disappointed by the game. And while it tries and largely succeeds at being a callback to old-school RPG's, it also brings a few interesting twists which may or may not be for everyone. 

Encounters are represented as flames, which you can dodge to avoid encounters. The devs expect players to actively avoid encounters they don't want, since there is no 'run' command (although a couple of classes have access to something of the sort). Encounters are also non-trivial at almost any level. One of the things the devs didn't like are 'trash encounters', you're going to have to respect any enemies you run into no matter your level. However, you're also given an amazing amount of information in the combat screen. You've got an turn order conveyor belt at the bottom of the screen that gives icons for general categories of actions of what the monsters next action will be, you have the ability to use left and right arrow to bring up more information about the enemies. And you'll need that information because the fights won't take it easy on you.

I will say that this is probably the first RPG I've picked up where skills along the lines of 'reduce enemy's attack by 35%' is actually meaningful and extremely relevant. In fact, I've found in this game that they are absolutely critical to surviving, especially surviving bosses that have a tendency to use very strong AoE attacks. However, if you nerf his attack by 35%, then buff your defenses by 35%, what can be a one-shot party wipe can turn into 'is that all ya got?' pretty easily. 

Much like FF3/5/Tactics, you have a Job system and the ability to swap jobs. Each job has a skill tree, picked up with a separate LP system. You can also pick a subclass, which grants access to anything in that class's skill tree you previously picked up. There's also passives which can be unlocked in skill trees that can then be 'equipped' with passive points, with only ten passive points to spend and most passive skills costing between two and four points each. You can use a passive no matter what class you are once you've unlocked it. This gives you a high degree of customization for your characters, which I quite enjoy. 

You start off with six jobs which are suspiciously similar to the classic Final Fantasy classes, although they've picked up some interesting tricks. To unlock more classes, you have to hunt down crystals. Each Job Crystal grants access to one new job. There's like sixteen of them out in the world somewhere. Jobs can be hit or miss, some jobs are great while others... not so much. But with over twenty classes to pick from, I'm okay with some of them being duds. Some jobs aren't fantastic in and of themselves, but can offer a passive that might be used in another class, so not necessarily a class to use directly but beeline for that specific passive to pick up before switching back out. 

The game is extremely hands-off when it comes to exploration. No waypoints, no big yellow exclamation marks or question marks, no towers marking points of interest on your maps... hell, you have to go find the minimaps for each area separately, and they only uncover what you've personally explored. This freedom to explore is key and integral to not just the mechanics of the game, but the plot and storyline as well. 

The biggest criticism I will offer here is that the game has a lot of tight platforming that can be frustrating due to the isometric angle the game is portrayed at. You're never quite sure if that jump is straight, but up one level, or if it's an angled jump. And in some areas, the iteration time can be annoying, you can fall to a lower level and have to work your way around back to the area you fell in before. However, the game strongly encourages you to go see if you CAN actually scale that cliff, because there might be something interesting up there if you do. 

The game does also occasionally use meatwalls but also includes ways to bypass those meatwalls if you want. In fact probably my favorite thing about the game is that there's sequence breaks deliberately and intentionally built into the game for the players to discover and use if they want. The speedrun for this game is absolutely nuts. Any time you run into the game saying 'you must do x before doing y', there's almost certainly a way to bypass that restriction. 

I personally found it to be enjoyable and absolutely worth the money. However, I also freely admit that it's a rather niche game with a niche audience which I happen to be part of. YMMV.

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

> Wrapped up Midnight Suns.


Ive started it, my big complaints so far are that the controls are very obviously intended for console not mouse and keyboard, and that there are a million different currencies. Also one story event seemed a little rushed, namely

*Spoiler*
Show

Spider-man revealing his identity to the team.

Seriously Peter, youve known these people for _one day!_

----------


## MCerberus

> Ive started it, my big complaints so far are that the controls are very obviously intended for console not mouse and keyboard, and that there are a million different currencies. Also one story event seemed a little rushed, namely
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Spider-man revealing his identity to the team.
> 
> Seriously Peter, youve known these people for _one day!_


*Spoiler: Spoiler man Spoiler man does whatever a spoiler can*
Show


Peter's got that issue in every media it seems. MCU spidey pretty much gives out his card. In the console games -double spoiler- and Peter still does the hero voice around them. He just assumes people will get some kind of amnesia... because they do.

----------


## Zevox

> Ive started it, my big complaints so far are that the controls are very obviously intended for console not mouse and keyboard, and that there are a million different currencies. Also one story event seemed a little rushed, namely
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Spider-man revealing his identity to the team.
> 
> Seriously Peter, youve known these people for _one day!_


I'm playing on console, so the first isn't even something I'd notice (I'd only notice if it were the other way around). As to the currencies, eh, it's not bad. Gloss is entirely for cosmetic stuff and you'll quickly have an abundance of it (unless you feel the need to unlock every cosmetic option rather than just the ones you like, I suppose). Credits are your normal money, just used to install upgrades you've researched... and a small amount is paid every time you do daily training with an ally for some reason. Beyond that it's just the three card types' "essences," which are your fee for upgrading cards of the given type. You never need to worry about gloss, and will rarely need to worry too much about credits, so the main one to juggle is just the essences, which mostly act as a check on you just upgrading all of your cards immediately. Why they felt the need to split that up into three currencies rather than just one I don't know, but they track directly to each card type, so it's not confusing which one you need.

As for the spoiler,
*Spoiler*
Show

yeah, he definitely jumped into that pretty quickly. Though it was obvious Tony already knew who he was, and he is probably pretty inclined to trust the Avengers at least, so it's arguable how big of a deal it really needed to be for him.

At the end of the day though it probably comes down to the devs not wanting to make you wait forever to be able to customize his abbey appearance like everybody else, if I had to guess.

----------


## Cazero

> So, I've finally completed Crystal Project. It's... certainly not for everyone, I'll get that out of the way right now.


My one gripe with the game is how complete bull**** the bosses are in general and the true endboss in particular. I like games with a job system to fiddle with them, and bosses having mandatory counters to pass them are just not fun in that respect.

----------


## ShneekeyTheLost

> My one gripe with the game is how complete bull**** the bosses are in general and the true endboss in particular. I like games with a job system to fiddle with them, and bosses having mandatory counters to pass them are just not fun in that respect.


I didn't find them to be complete BS. Sure, they were hard, but by the time you run into them you've got the tools to deal with their BS. 

Never underestimate the power of Power Break and Magic Break. In most games, it's absolutely useless because you can power through without them. In this game? You're gonna need some way to do that. There's several options, Fighter, Aegis, Dervish, Shaman... there's lots of ways to apply a 'you do that less effective' nerf bat, and lots of ways of shoring up your own defenses. 

I was also using a Warlock/Nomad with Therapy Stance to AoE clear debuffs, using Doublecast to remove multiple debuffs as needed. Heck, my caster DPS was a Dervish with Nomad subclass and Wave Stance to occasionally proc free water damage in addition to laying down damage plus 'stop doing that so well'. DPS was a Ninja/Rogue with bleed and poison passives equipped with daggers that would alternately blind or mute. Tank was Fighter/Valkyrie, so he already had a party armor buff in addition to aggro management tools and physical damage debuff. Armor debuff too if I got a chance.

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

> As to the currencies, eh, it's not bad. Gloss is entirely for cosmetic stuff and you'll quickly have an abundance of it (unless you feel the need to unlock every cosmetic option rather than just the ones you like, I suppose). Credits are your normal money, just used to install upgrades you've researched... and a small amount is paid every time you do daily training with an ally for some reason. Beyond that it's just the three card types' "essences," which are your fee for upgrading cards of the given type. You never need to worry about gloss, and will rarely need to worry too much about credits, so the main one to juggle is just the essences, which mostly act as a check on you just upgrading all of your cards immediately. Why they felt the need to split that up into three currencies rather than just one I don't know, but they track directly to each card type, so it's not confusing which one you need.


Dont forget Compliments, which can apparently run out. And the various crafting mats you find around the Abbey, of which there seem to be few enough in type that they act like currencies.




> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> At the end of the day though it probably comes down to the devs not wanting to make you wait forever to be able to customize his abbey appearance like everybody else, if I had to guess.


Yeah, probably.

*Spoiler*
Show

I guess Im just annoyed that even the you be you Light dialogue option causes the Hunter to pressure the kid into taking the mask off. If we trust him enough to take him to our secret base, we should trust him enough to have his own secrets.

And maybe unlock some Spider-jammies so he has a comfier mask to sleep in.  :Small Tongue: 

Tangent, I was irrationally happy to see the kid finally got his pizza during Shop Class.

----------


## Zevox

> Dont forget Compliments, which can apparently run out. And the various crafting mats you find around the Abbey, of which there seem to be few enough in type that they act like currencies.


Sure, but compliments are another "don't need to worry about it" one - when you've got them, just pick the hero(es) you want to raise your friendship with and use them. As for crafting stuff from the grounds, I honestly didn't do much with those. Made a few healing items, but mostly turned them into extra essence when I could. I guess you could go out and harvest as many as possible every few days, or however long it takes them to respawn, to maximize how much you can make from the cauldron, but it didn't seem remotely necessary to me.

Oh, and we both forgot Intel, but that's another "takes care of itself" one - you get it from Intel Caches, which also give you Hero Ops, and you mostly spend it on those Hero Ops. Very early on you won't get enough intel from every cache for the two ops that it gives you, but that changes fairly quickly. Which kind of makes you wonder why it's there at all, but it's not really hurting anything, so eh.

So yeah, I guess there is a lot of currencies of one sort or another when you think about it, but most of them you don't really need to worry much about, so it never bothered me personally. Mainly you'll worry about essences for upgrading cards, and occasionally credits for installing the improvements you research for the Abbey's facilities; the rest pretty much handles itself.

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## Cespenar

Not meaning to belittle anyone's fun, but Midnight Suns looks to me as if a mobile shovelware company tried to copy X-COM and StS at the same time, and also commissioned a writer (singular) with the direction of "You know how some people hate Marvel movies' writing? Go with how they describe the movies".

And ironically it still seems borderline playable if you squint really hard, since those aren't half bad starting points at this time, unfortunately. But coming from "Marvel" and "Firaxis", it looks like a slap on the face.

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## Zevox

> Not meaning to belittle anyone's fun, but Midnight Suns looks to me as if a mobile shovelware company tried to copy X-COM and StS at the same time, and also commissioned a writer (singular) with the direction of "You know how some people hate Marvel movies' writing? Go with how they describe the movies".
> 
> And ironically it still seems borderline playable if you squint really hard, since those aren't half bad starting points at this time, unfortunately. But coming from "Marvel" and "Firaxis", it looks like a slap on the face.


A slap on the face? No, nothing like that at all. It's at least on par with the X-Com games for overall quality, no question about that in my mind. Writing could use some work for sure, but it's still fine, with the occasional legitimately good moment or idea. It's not as great as the Sony Spider-Man games or Square-Enix's Guardians of the Galaxy, but neither are the X-Com games, and those are the only Marvel games I can think of that I'd put over it. 

Well, those and Marvel vs Capcom 3, but it's kind of hard to compare single-player games to a fighting game, especially one that I'm kind of biased towards since it helped inspire my love of the whole genre.

(Not sure what the "StS" is that you referred to you though.)

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## Saambell

> (Not sure what the "StS" is that you referred to you though.)


Slay the Spire is my guess. There's some people who the instant they see "oh you do battle in a rpg with cards instead of actual commands" think "it must be a slay the spire clone". Slay the Spire was just the big indie game to make bank on the concept, but there were many before it. Mobile games were doing it back in 2015, two years before slay the spire, and even then it was considered a bit dated.

----------


## warty goblin

I thought XCOM's talky bits were already painful enough. The idea of more of that as a weird friendship simulator written in store brand MCU style is just... not appealing. Like if it was a bit of the game I'd be interested, but apparently like half the playtime is book club with Blade, which, just, yikes.

Got farther in Daemonhunters. Missions show a pleasant ability to go sideways. The general lack of emphasis on overwatch makes for a lot faster, more aggressive feel. Very space marine.

----------


## Zevox

> Slay the Spire is my guess. There's some people who the instant they see "oh you do battle in a rpg with cards instead of actual commands" think "it must be a slay the spire clone". Slay the Spire was just the big indie game to make bank on the concept, but there were many before it. Mobile games were doing it back in 2015, two years before slay the spire, and even then it was considered a bit dated.


Oh, yeah, I tried that game last year since it was a free PS+ game at some point. Midnight Suns isn't anything like it. Using cards to do stuff is just about the only thing they have in common, really.

Of course, it's also not all that much like X-Com outside of being turned-based strategy, but at least being made by the same people gives more reason to compare the two there.




> I thought XCOM's talky bits were already painful enough. The idea of more of that as a weird friendship simulator written in store brand MCU style is just... not appealing. Like if it was a bit of the game I'd be interested, but apparently like half the playtime is book club with Blade, which, just, yikes.


Surprisingly, book club with Blade is one of the good parts of the writing, I'd say. But yeah, there is a lot of MCU style and tone to it, and I know you're not a fan of that, so makes sense it wouldn't appeal to you.

----------


## Rynjin

Looks more like a party based Metal Gear Acid to me, TBH.

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## Kareeah_Indaga

Ive been enjoying the socialization aspect, my big complaint there is how heavily regimented it is. I cant, for example, spend an entire day hanging out with different clubs or training with different people, nor can I jam two or three missions into one day even if there are enough missions and available heroes to do so. I have to do a little of everything, every day, and I could do with a little more flexibility there.

----------


## Zevox

> Looks more like a party based Metal Gear Acid to me, TBH.


Huh, never heard of that one before, but the basic description of it in Wikipedia sounds kinda right, actually. Far from exact, but closer than anything I can think of, anyway.




> Ive been enjoying the socialization aspect, my big complaint there is how heavily regimented it is. I cant, for example, spend an entire day hanging out with different clubs or training with different people, nor can I jam two or three missions into one day even if there are enough missions and available heroes to do so. I have to do a little of everything, every day, and I could do with a little more flexibility there.


That's fair, more flexibility on how you spend your time could be nice.

Now, if we want to get into actually disappointing superhero games, I just started playing one that, so far, appears to be that: another of my Christmas gifts, Gotham Knights. Which is indeed based on the Arkham games, but more loosely than I'd realized, and the changes are for the worse. 

Remember that counter-attacking mechanic that the Arkham games' whole combat flow was built around? That's gone. Now you just dodge everything. If you do a "perfect doge," meaning dodging at the last moment before you'd be hit, you can get a "perfect attack" follow-up... which is a big, slow uppercut type of move, basically. Launches enemies high up into the air, but they hit the ground before you can do anything further, so I'm not sure what the point of that is. And actually, while it's been a while since I last played one of the Arkham games, this game in general feels slower and more awkward to play than I remember those being. Attack animations, movement, dodges, everything in general feels just a bit clunky, and it actually goes a long way towards making the basic combat less satisfying. Even just sound effects and animation on simple things seem worse: I can honestly fail to notice when I've gotten hit by something at times, because the character doesn't react very much and there's not much sound from it.

You also seem to no longer have the variety of gadgets that Batman did. Instead, his proteges will get different "momentum" moves - they build up what's basically a super meter from attacking and dodging, and can then do a big attack with it. Or a bland one; Batgirl's basic momentum move is a harder-hitting flurry of punches than usual, for instance. Characters do all get some unique skills to unlock, which can be nice. Batgirl gets some tech expert stuff, drawing on her having been Oracle (no explanation for how she can walk again so far), such as hacking cameras to temporarily disable them during stealth segments or overloading enemy weapons and gizmos to create an electric burst on them, while Robin is the stealth expert and gets things like a unique stealth takedown (okay, it was just one of Batman's normal ones, where you strings an enemy up from a perch, but Robin's the only one who can do it in this game) and the ability to move at normal speed without making sound. Nightwing is an acrobatics expert but I haven't played as much of him yet, and I assume Red Hood gets gun-related stuff but I have no intention of playing him.

Beyond that, you have the gear and the crafting system. Oh boy, you want to talk about a game with too many currencies? This one has _at least_ 15 types of "salvage" used for its crafting - and there's space on the screen where you can see them for up to 20, those 15 are just what I have. Now, I seem to have gotten a lot of them for free, probably because the version of the game I was gifted was the "Deluxe Edition," so thus far I don't have to care much about them, but nonetheless, good god is that overdoing it, and boy would I be unhappy if I didn't have all of that free salvage from the get-go. And it has the worst kind of gear too, the kind where you're constantly finding more (blueprints, anyway, since you have to craft it all), and it's just stat increases - hell, the gear itself has levels, for some reason, even though those don't always correspond to their stats being higher than other gear of lower levels. This is definitely not something that the Arkham games needed, at all.

Story-wise, I'm not far enough in to judge. Seems fine by and large so far I suppose, and there was one nice character moment with Batgirl and Renee Montoya at a memorial to Commissioner Gordon (who is apparently dead) that I just got.

Still, so far, this is a very noticeable step down from the Arkham games, which is disappointing since an Arkham-style game focused on the sidekicks instead of Batman is a good idea I'd say. I have to wonder how much of it comes down to them wanting to make it an always-online co-op multiplayer thing? I've got that disabled since I have no interest in it, but I can imagine the slower animations might be to help with potential lag issues that might cause, and the gear and excessive crafting materials is to give people rewards for co-oping with random people online.

----------


## Cespenar

> Slay the Spire is my guess. There's some people who the instant they see "oh you do battle in a rpg with cards instead of actual commands" think "it must be a slay the spire clone". Slay the Spire was just the big indie game to make bank on the concept, but there were many before it. Mobile games were doing it back in 2015, two years before slay the spire, and even then it was considered a bit dated.


I mean, it's possible to see StS's effect on the genre by just being alive and using Steam, but yeah, obviously they didn't invent cards.

----------


## Rynjin

> Huh, never heard of that one before, but the basic description of it in Wikipedia sounds kinda right, actually. Far from exact, but closer than anything I can think of, anyway.


It's an interesting little game if you're a Metal Gear fan, worth booting up a PSP emulator and giving a shot for sure.

----------


## Cazero

Besides, the game Midnight Suns ripped on with their card system was Steamworld Quest : Hand of Gilgamech.
Seriously. Reading your description earlier in the thread, it's word by word the same thing, except for the tactical grid.

----------


## Batcathat

As I mentioned in this thread a while back, I had never finished Pillars of Eternity despite really liking it. So I decided to give it another shot and actually played all the way through this time (and is happy I did, it was very enjoyable.)

So now it's time for the sequel, does anyone know of anything in particular I should think about or be prepared for? I know there's some new stuff (like multiclassing and a ship) but I haven't really looked into it, aside from reading some reviews.

----------


## GloatingSwine

I can't think of any real "I wish I'd known that going in" moments in PoE2 other than that I quickly reached the point where I abandoned trying to do the ship combat and just hit the "close to board" button as soon as I could. 

Boarding battles are some of the most fun in the game anyway.

Oh, and Chanters are better on normal difficulties now because they don't have to wait until they can do their thing.

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## Zombimode

> So now it's time for the sequel, does anyone know of anything in particular I should think about or be prepared for? I know there's some new stuff (like multiclassing and a ship) but I haven't really looked into it, aside from reading some reviews.


Hm... not much. For me PoE 2 was a much better game then the first one. Just going in blind is fine.

The only thing that come to my mind is: you can import a save game from the first game (and I don't see a reason why you wouldn't do that) but that doesn't lock you into any character building choices.
Effectively you create a completely new level 1 character, whether you import a save or not.
Personally I've kept my characters name and gender, but for the actual character build I went into a completely new direction including (I think) the race.

----------


## GloatingSwine

Yeah, the import is about the choices you made and their outcomes, rather than mechanics (because most of the classes had their mechanics changed anyway).

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## Zombimode

> Boarding battles are some of the most fun in the game anyway.


For some reason the boarding battle have the best combat music by far.




> Oh, and Chanters are better on normal difficulties now because they don't have to wait until they can do their thing.


Hm, that must be a RTwP thing. But maybe thats another thing to consider: when you play in turn-based mode the characters initiative stat matters a lot less. In RTwP it defines how many action you can perform in a given time frame. In turnbased mode each combatant has the same set of actions available each turn, regardless of that stat. While you can switch freely between RTwP and turn-based, your build choices might be influenced by your preferred game mode.

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## Batcathat

> Oh, and Chanters are better on normal difficulties now because they don't have to wait until they can do their thing.


Yeah, I can see how that'd make a big difference. I thought the summons in particular were quite useful, but a lot of battles ended before I could use the more powerful ones. 




> The only thing that come to my mind is: you can import a save game from the first game (and I don't see a reason why you wouldn't do that) but that doesn't lock you into any character building choices.
> Effectively you create a completely new level 1 character, whether you import a save or not.
> Personally I've kept my characters name and gender, but for the actual character build I went into a completely new direction including (I think) the race.


Oh, I was hoping it'd be more like an import from Baldur's Gate to Baldur's Gate II, where you keep your character more or less as it is and keep building on it. But this could be fun too, I'm sure I've made some weird build choices I should've avoided.  :Small Tongue: 




> Hm, that must be a RTwP thing. But maybe thats another thing to consider: when you play in turn-based mode the characters initiative stat matters a lot less. In RTwP it defines how many action you can perform in a given time frame. In turnbased mode each combatant has the same set of actions available each turn, regardless of that stat. While you can switch freely between RTwP and turn-based, your build choices might be influenced by your preferred game mode.


Thanks, that's good to know.

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## warty goblin

Unless they changed something PoE 2 is either turn based or real time, you pick at the beginning of the game and the entire playthrough is in that mode. Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous (and I think bow Kingmaker as well) let you toggle RTwP and turn based at any time. IIRC the distinction is that PoE apparently tries to rebalance the game for fewer but longer fights in turn based, but Pathfinder has the same (really large) number of encounters either way.

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## GloatingSwine

PoE2 in general goes for fewer but more consequential fights, with fewer but tougher enemies and less goonswarms than PoE1.

The other consequence of turn based mode and how it changes time and delays is that guns become a bit more powerful because they lose relatively less time to reloads.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> PoE2 in general goes for fewer but more consequential fights, with fewer but tougher enemies and less goonswarms than PoE1.


Yeah, the ogreswarms in latter PoE1 areas....

I should get back to PoE2, especially as I'm getting contact lenses later this week. Although maybe I'll restart and switch class, I'm kind of not feeling Monk anymore.

----------


## Zevox

> It's an interesting little game if you're a Metal Gear fan, worth booting up a PSP emulator and giving a shot for sure.


"Metal Gear fan" isn't really something I'd call myself. I loved Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance, but beyond that the only game in the series that I've played is Metal Gear Solid 3, which I understand is one of the most well-regarded of the series, and while I don't think it's bad by any means, it wasn't my cup of tea. So I've otherwise avoided the bulk of the series.




> Besides, the game Midnight Suns ripped on with their card system was Steamworld Quest : Hand of Gilgamech.
> Seriously. Reading your description earlier in the thread, it's word by word the same thing, except for the tactical grid.


Huh, never heard of that before, but looking at some gameplay quickly on Youtube, there are some definite similarities. Though an important difference in that combat there seems to follow the old-school RPG style of lining up both teams on either side of the screen, whereas Midnight Suns has you moving throughout an area. Which makes a big difference due to the knockback mechanic and stage interactable elements being pretty huge for how its combat plays out. There are cards in Midnight Suns that don't do any direct damage, only knockback, but which are extremely useful and you'll likely keep in your decks from start to finish simply because of how good knocking enemies around is in that game.

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## Taevyr

The focus on fewer, tougher/more consequential fights was one of the things I liked the best about PoE2: resource management/pre-casting tends to simply become tedious and a huge time sink as you progress (looking at you, Wrath), and having played through Deadfire on hard mode thrice, it really incorporated the idea of the party always having access to nearly all its resources into its encounter design. Particularly in the DLC.

----------


## MCerberus

So wow has this quest where this dragon has been sticking to his cave and neglecting the grove around him because he's upset that Ysera had died in a previous expansion. Well a couple of dryads try to cheer him up from his depression, ending where you go clean off a monument to the dead dragon.

It was just a little side quest but wow it was so much better than the stuff I'm used to from modern wow. It's actually surprising.
And due to recent events in my life this all hit devastatingly hard. A lot of stuff this expansion seems to. They actually returned tone... and theming to their storylines.

Except, again, the main antagonist, which is a giant dragon Rita Repulsa and ruins every moment she's in frame.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Games I've played or been playing recently.

*Hero of the Kingdom: Lost Tales 2*: A soothing minimalistic RPG with a dash of hidden object hunting. You'd probably need mental quirks like mine to enjoy it, since everything has been stripped out except gathering/trading/expending resources.

*Turnip Boy Commits Tax Evasion*: A mediocre Zelda-style game that relies on its charm and humor, which I found lacking except for the fun running gag of document destruction.

*FixFox* is a fix-em-up (this should be a genre) with an emphasis on physicality. You scrounge for low-tier equipment and materials to fix basic items, which reward you with mid-tier stuff to fix more complex items. Not a complex game loop, but a satisfying one. The commitment to making everything tactile and kinaesthetic reminds me strongly of Ultima VI and VII. You rummage through your backpack Ultima VII-style for what you need, you apply items directly on components, you save by dragging cassettes around, and your cursor on informational screens is a big ol' hand. It's fun, though the gameplay never develops any complexity.

*Pitcher and the Whale*: A free Ludum Dare game about a fox trying to save a stranded whale by tossing water on him. In addition to platforming with the fox, you manage a bucket that bounces around like crazy, breaks rocks and stuns enemies. It took about ten minutes to finish, but those ten minutes were a joy.

*Creeper World 4* is an RTS where your enemy is fluid physics. Each map will have sources of viscous, corrosive group that slowly oozes across the terrain destroying whatever it engulfs. Thankfully bombs and bullets seem to be effective against it. All resources must flow from destination to destination across the map, via solar towers and energy relays. Resources have no hard caps, and efficiency is all about spotting bottlenecks before they become disastrous, so you can play quite slow and methodically if you like. Further missions (I'm about two thirds through) introduce complications like enemy organisms that can launch the goo behind your front lines. It's fun, but fatiguing.

*Xenoblade Chronicles*: Having a JRPG in the background satisfies some deep emotional urge in me. I suppose it tricks my subconscious into feeling that I am growing steadily stronger. XC has fantastic world design and worldbuilding, taking place on the body of a defeated titan. The game became much more fun when I switched away from the main character.

*Tactical Nexus*: The engine is dated and the pricing is silly, but otherwise this game, a set of optimization puzzles in the guise of an RPG, is fantastic. Doing well in these puzzles gives you permanent rewards on a metagame level, allowing you to choose various boosts on previous levels, thereby turning them into slightly different puzzles. I reinstalled this game after a long absence, and upon reviewing one of the levels I glimpsed an immense lattice inside my mind, a lattice that represented two months of obsessive play. I shut the game down in fear.

Now I'm playing *Rain World*.

----------


## Eldan

> *Tactical Nexus*: The engine is dated and the pricing is silly, but otherwise this game, a set of optimization puzzles in the guise of an RPG, is fantastic. Doing well in these puzzles gives you permanent rewards on a metagame level, allowing you to choose various boosts on previous levels, thereby turning them into slightly different puzzles. I reinstalled this game after a long absence, and upon reviewing one of the levels I glimpsed an immense lattice inside my mind, a lattice that represented two months of obsessive play. I shut the game down in fear.


Hah. That's me and Baba is You. I played a few levels of that game and then glimpsed a vision of the future, where either I'd uninstall that game right now, or play without sleeping for the next month.

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## warty goblin

I continue to purge my way through Daemonhunters.

The long and short of it is that it's XCOM for people who have played a lot of XCOM and are tired of certain BS XCOM annoyances. Of all the XCOM type games I've played, this is the most conservative in departures from that formula, instead opting mostly to make a functional melee combat model and sand off most of the annoyances.

Most obvious is the removal of to-hit and damage rolls. Attacks do flat damage - subject to reduction by range and cover - and if they can hit, they hit. There's still a random crit chance, but you're never left up a tree because your shotgun dude missed a 99% shot from like 2 feet away.

The removal of fussy annoying crap extends to a good number of other pain points as well. XCOM's baroque rules about what actions end your turn are gone, leaving you with a nice tidy system where everybody gets 3 AP, everything costs 1 AP, and there are no restrictions on what you do. Triple attacking is fine, triple moving is fine. Mixing melee and ranged and special attacks is fine. You can shoot, reload, move. 

Ammo management is also de-fussied. Your guns have ammo, if you use it all while fighting you have to reload. When you kill all engaged enemies everybody automatically reloads. Special abilities are either once per mission, once per turn, or always available, there's no cool downs. They all use Willpower, which you recover by killing things. Nothing gets me up and going like chopping a plague mutant in half with righteous fury. 

There's a bunch of other stuff that the game does well, but I think that gives the general idea without me writing a novel. If you like XCOM, but really cannot tolerate any more of some of its more arbitrary nonsense - and the increasingly wobbly mechanical workarounds for those in XCOM 2 - I'd give this a look.

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## Rynjin

> "Metal Gear fan" isn't really something I'd call myself. I loved Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance, but beyond that the only game in the series that I've played is Metal Gear Solid 3, which I understand is one of the most well-regarded of the series, and while I don't think it's bad by any means, it wasn't my cup of tea. So I've otherwise avoided the bulk of the series.


Yeah, good call then. Snake Eater is objectively the most mechanically complex and deep game to play in the franchise, and subjectively has the best story in the franchise. If you don't like Snake Eater, it is incredibly unlikely you'd like any of the other mainline games because at best 1 and 2 for example would feel mechanically watered down and clunkier.

----------


## Cespenar

I've also started on Expeditions: Rome, which is XCOM but Rome.

Tactically, it plays great at the moment. Also some pretty good historical details except some obvious gamification moments, and they also seem to hit my personal pet peeve right on the head, which is pronouncing obviously Greek or Roman words as they should be. So no Hay-deez here, fortunately.

----------


## warty goblin

> I've also started on Expeditions: Rome, which is XCOM but Rome.
> 
> Tactically, it plays great at the moment. Also some pretty good historical details except some obvious gamification moments, and they also seem to hit my personal pet peeve right on the head, which is pronouncing obviously Greek or Roman words as they should be. So no Hay-deez here, fortunately.


I gave Rome a whirl when it came out. Initially I quite liked it, but I found it wore out really fast. 

On the plus side, I liked battles having objectives beyond just killing everybody. The fights were pretty good as well, in terms of mechanics and structure. And it looks great. Writing was fine at a gloss.

The downsides were, to me, just how hard it beat on history to hammer it into an XCOM shaped hole that wasn't too outre for us moderns. Like sure, I get that the dev makes tactical RPGs, but Roman conquests are manifestly not commando raids, and turning them into that (with a pointless actual battle minigame) is weird and unimaginative. Couldn't you have just made the characters high ranking officers in command of bodies of troops that you maneuver around the battlefield? And playing as a woman was just clumsily handled, everybody was all "boy it sure is weird how you are a badass commando trained in combat when this is contrary to every value in our society. I have no issue here and am happy to do your bidding."  Rome was proudly patriarchal as all get out and there's no getting around it. It felt very, mmmm, prettified for a modern audience, rather than engaging with ,you know, Rome. Ditto the whole imperial conquest thing, and the slavery thing, and so on. 

Some of this worked better in Viking, their previous title. There's enough ambiguity in the archeology of Viking age Britain to make a case for female warriors as a normal thing, and Viking raids could actually be fairly small (not tactics game small, but not armies of tens of thousands). Though there was still a lot of dressing up history as nice, when it assuredly was not that rubbed me wrong. Like, I'm going over there to kill everyone necessary to take the valuables, which can include not just the jewelry, but the women, children and land. Let's be honest here.

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## Actana

> I gave Rome a whirl when it came out. Initially I quite liked it, but I found it wore out really fast. 
> 
> On the plus side, I liked battles having objectives beyond just killing everybody. The fights were pretty good as well, in terms of mechanics and structure. And it looks great. Writing was fine at a gloss.
> 
> The downsides were, to me, just how hard it beat on history to hammer it into an XCOM shaped hole that wasn't too outre for us moderns. Like sure, I get that the dev makes tactical RPGs, but Roman conquests are manifestly not commando raids, and turning them into that (with a pointless actual battle minigame) is weird and unimaginative. Couldn't you have just made the characters high ranking officers in command of bodies of troops that you maneuver around the battlefield? And playing as a woman was just clumsily handled, everybody was all "boy it sure is weird how you are a badass commando trained in combat when this is contrary to every value in our society. I have no issue here and am happy to do your bidding."  Rome was proudly patriarchal as all get out and there's no getting around it. It felt very, mmmm, prettified for a modern audience, rather than engaging with ,you know, Rome. Ditto the whole imperial conquest thing, and the slavery thing, and so on. 
> 
> Some of this worked better in Viking, their previous title. There's enough ambiguity in the archeology of Viking age Britain to make a case for female warriors as a normal thing, and Viking raids could actually be fairly small (not tactics game small, but not armies of tens of thousands). Though there was still a lot of dressing up history as nice, when it assuredly was not that rubbed me wrong. Like, I'm going over there to kill everyone necessary to take the valuables, which can include not just the jewelry, but the women, children and land. Let's be honest here.


I do want to comment on the part about playing as a woman, as I seem to recall that your subordinates don't actually know that you're a woman until you've well established your command. There's a whole scene about it, I think. And when you're back in Rome, you do get treated differently in politics and are subject to more scrutiny (how much of this scrutiny is window dressing I can't quite say).

Certainly, the major NPCs and your mentor for instance have far more modern outlooks, but as for the rest of the soldiers, at first they don't know and later you've already built a reputation.

Could be wrong though, it's been a while since I played it. Liked the game a lot, overall. Tossing torches onto the battlefield never got old.

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## MCerberus

> The downsides were, to me, just how hard it beat on history to hammer it into an XCOM shaped hole that wasn't too outre for us moderns.


This surfaced my terrible, terrible memories of the time they tried to apply 2010s FPS design principles to a Roman setting and we ended up with Boudica's war elephants.

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## warty goblin

> This surfaced my terrible, terrible memories of the time they tried to apply 2010s FPS design principles to a Roman setting and we ended up with Boudica's war elephants.


See, if something just goes Full Dumb, I'm actually in some ways happier. One, dumb is fun and awesome. Two, dumb is usually very, very obvious. The tricky bit with Expeditions: Rome is that it looks, and markets, itself as not dumb, and gets a fair amount sort of right. 

I suppose it's a matter of direction and perspective. In an obvious dumb and wrong thing, I'm happy about the correct bits. In something that isn't obviously wrong about everything, it's a lot harder to judge, both if something is wrong, and why they got it wrong.

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## Cespenar

I agree about the silliness of a commander entering 6v6 skirmishes, but it's being done so often by now that I'd be needlessly limiting myself some otherwise good games if I cared too much about that stuff. 

Ideologically I agree with the sentiment though. They could have made your group merely high ranking characters, but obviously they wanted "you" to control the legion-level fights, and they wanted "you" to play tactical battles as well. And those two can't easily mesh together. It all comes down to the top-down design choices.

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## Zevox

I've wrapped up Gotham Knights now. It's... yeah, it's an Arkham game, but worse, sadly. Gameplay remains fundamentally just kind of a clunkier, more limited version of the Arkham series, with the lack of the counter ability in particular hurting it, since now the answer to every enemy attack is the same: just dodge. Nothing ever really replaces Batman's gadgets, and some of his moves are spread out among the characters, so it always feels kind of watered down by comparison. Some of the momentum moves you unlock for each character can be cool and unique, like Batgirl's drone and Robin's micro-bots, but they're few and far between. Oh, and boss fights in the game kind of suck, sadly - they feel kind of Dark Souls-y, in that you have to play pretty defensively and just dodge a lot until you get an opening, and then you're probably only getting one combo sequence or momentum move in. And unless you're over-leveled, the bosses' health bars are way too bloated. It's especially sad comparing the Mr. Freeze boss fight in this game to the one from Arkham City, which was on the standouts of that game.

Story-wise, it's fine. I actually like the character dynamic between the four ex-sidekicks when they're working together better than I've ever liked Batman himself, but I've never big a Batman fan, so take that for it's worth. One problem though is that the game is clearly designed as if you're going to play the same character from start to finish - if you switch, which you can do every time you return to your base (which you have to do at least about 20 times throughout the story), characters will still speak to you as if your current character were the one they saw last time you spoke to them. What makes that weird is that they can and do track which character you used when - during the credits it shows scenes from throughout the game, and actually shows the character you were using at the time, in the outfit you were using at the time. Why they didn't use that to make characters recognize when they're speaking to a different bat-sidekick than before, I really don't understand. And without getting into spoilers, the ending also plays out slightly differently depending on who you take into the final battle, and it's entirely focused on just that character, not the four of them as a team with slight changes based on who fought the final battle, which is weird since the rest of the game does feel like it's about the four of them as a team, just with some side-moments that are more individually focused.

Oh, and the equipment stuff never gets better, either. Massive waste of time that didn't need to be in the game that. There's a reason Batman only gained new moves when leveling up in the Arkham games, not better stats (aside from health sometimes).

At the same time, I don't want to give the impression that it's a bad game, just disappointingly inferior to the games it's based on. They could've just taken the gameplay from the Arkham series, slightly modified it for each character, and the result would be pretty solid, if unoriginal. They tried a bunch of changes though, and basically none of them work out to be for the better, aside from maybe centering the game on the four sidekicks instead of Batman himself. But "worse than the Arkham games" doesn't mean bad, just that it's a 7/10 instead of a 9/10, if you will. It has some definite faults, which are extra visible due to it being spun off of better games, but it's still a good, usually fun game at its core.

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## Anonymouswizard

Started another PoE1 run, because my contact lenses got delayed and I'd rather replay the game I kind of know than struggle to read tons of new text. Took me a couple of days to decide on my character, I wasn't sure if I wanted to go Orlan or Godlike and which class (Priest was tempting just to make Durance very easy to ignore, but I decided I didn't like the choice of gods).

But I finally settled on a Moon Godlike Fighter Philosopher, probably going into two handed weapons and wearing medium armour. It makes me ridiculously durable for the early game, and means I won't feel compelled to have Edér in my party for the entire run (although I probably still will). Plus I apparently picked up my fighting skills from a tendency to wander into temples and debate the existence of the gods, which makes me chuckle.

It's looking like it'll be a good run. But I might crank the combat difficulty down before Act 3, because I remember that as being when some of the more annoying mob swarms start turning up.

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## tonberrian

I love Eder he's just so good. And he's in the sequel!

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## Blackhawk748

Ok, so I've ben trying to remember this game all day but I can't for the life of me and I want to go play it again, so I could use some help.

I used to own this, but I have no clue where the CD wound up, but its a Point and Click Adventure/Mystery game (probably from Walmart) that is about disappearances/murders out in some creepy little town with a henge nearby. I distinctly recall the henge stones moving around in a cutscene and killing someone.

Woulda been somewhere between like 98 and 03. I thought Raven software made it, but apparently not.

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## Rynjin

Until you mentioned henges moving, I thought it might be Mystery of the Druids.

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## Blackhawk748

> Until you mentioned henges moving, I thought it might be Mystery of the Druids.


No, I remember that one. Also, it wasn't 3d animated (at least I don't recall it being that) I think it may have had live actors in some spots? My memory is foggy

Im also convinced that Raven is either in the name or has something to do with the devs. Maybe its a Crow? I just seem to remember a Corvid associated with this game some how.

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## Taevyr

> I gave Rome a whirl when it came out. Initially I quite liked it, but I found it wore out really fast. 
> 
> On the plus side, I liked battles having objectives beyond just killing everybody. The fights were pretty good as well, in terms of mechanics and structure. And it looks great. Writing was fine at a gloss.
> 
> The downsides were, to me, just how hard it beat on history to hammer it into an XCOM shaped hole that wasn't too outre for us moderns. Like sure, I get that the dev makes tactical RPGs, but Roman conquests are manifestly not commando raids, and turning them into that (with a pointless actual battle minigame) is weird and unimaginative. Couldn't you have just made the characters high ranking officers in command of bodies of troops that you maneuver around the battlefield? And playing as a woman was just clumsily handled, everybody was all "boy it sure is weird how you are a badass commando trained in combat when this is contrary to every value in our society. I have no issue here and am happy to do your bidding."  Rome was proudly patriarchal as all get out and there's no getting around it. It felt very, mmmm, prettified for a modern audience, rather than engaging with ,you know, Rome. Ditto the whole imperial conquest thing, and the slavery thing, and so on. 
> 
> Some of this worked better in Viking, their previous title. There's enough ambiguity in the archeology of Viking age Britain to make a case for female warriors as a normal thing, and Viking raids could actually be fairly small (not tactics game small, but not armies of tens of thousands). Though there was still a lot of dressing up history as nice, when it assuredly was not that rubbed me wrong. Like, I'm going over there to kill everyone necessary to take the valuables, which can include not just the jewelry, but the women, children and land. Let's be honest here.


Having played through Rome myself, while the gameplay loop did get old by the time the third act starts rolling, I always felt like they did a good job giving everything a decently historical covering to aid the suspended disbelief. Of course it's a lot harder to make commando-style squad combat believable here than viking age britain/denmark, but the "you're somehow both speculator and commander of the legion and nobody seriously points out what a problem that is because the game won't work otherwise" is decent enough. But hell, I was sold the moment I heard the correct roman v's and pronunciation, and the legion quartermaster mentioning posca off-handedly. And I actually had to take to moment to admire the amphora models they made. Considering its core purpose is still a strategy game in a pseudo-historical Roman jacket, I didn't feel like there was much to reasonably complain about considering the general quality of said jacket compared to the usual fare. 

The option to play as a woman felt out of place, true, but I can imagine it raising a stink if it wasn't possible either: didn't play as one though, so can't really speak on that. The way they played around with history to form a coherent plot also felt... rather clumsy at times: I liked the way they eventually executed it in the second act, but the third act starts out awkward and gradually becomes a complete mess, even if it's one in-story too. Felt like they gave that one less attention to focus on the finale, but at least it shows in the finale (well, on the path I chose). I don't immediately see your points on slavery/imperialism though.

Generally, I got the same vibe as Viking, though I would agree that Viking executed it better: some "cleaning" to make the whole bloody conquest/raiding thing still appealing as a roleplaying experience (and _allowing_ a roleplay experience, cause killing everyone and taking their stuff is just murderhobo simulator), some shifting with history to get a better grasp on the story, and excuses to allow the main character and party to serve as the "special forces" of their era, whether those actually existed or not.

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## Anonymouswizard

> I love Eder he's just so good. And he's in the sequel!


Edér is probably my favourite character in the entire game. A lot of it has to do with him being one of the most religious of the companions despite being a mundane, but he's keeping himself together despite ostracism and a crisis of faith, and he actually gets along with pretty much everyone. Plus there's worse classes to double up on than Fighter.

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## GloatingSwine

> But I finally settled on a Moon Godlike Fighter Philosopher, probably going into two handed weapons and wearing medium armour. It makes me ridiculously durable for the early game, and means I won't feel compelled to have Edér in my party for the entire run (although I probably still will). Plus I apparently picked up my fighting skills from a tendency to wander into temples and debate the existence of the gods, which makes me chuckle.


I always like Fire Godlike Paladin for durability. Resolve 18, Strike Hard or Sheathed in Autumn & Outworn Buckler and Zealous Endurance running. (in PoE2 subbed the weapons for Magran's Favour and 

Your defences all shoot into the sky and you give a bunch to nearby party, plus once you get under 50% health you kinda just stop taking damage (you'll be sitting at 7DR to all types with really high defences).

Then at high level you turn on Sacred Immolation and just start toasting anyone that stands next to you and healing all your allies. Enemies can't damage you so you might as well damage yourself.

I'm in danger of starting a new playthrough to do it again...

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## Batcathat

In my recently finished PoE playthrough I used a melee-focused cipher which ended up being a lot of fun. She was quite a glass cannon, but once I got the hang of it she was very effective.

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## GloatingSwine

Melee cipher gets a a bump up from multiclassing in PoE2. I used Serafen as a Barbarian/Cipher and he worked really well.

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## Batcathat

> Melee cipher gets a a bump up from multiclassing in PoE2. I used Serafen as a Barbarian/Cipher and he worked really well.


Yeah, I'm planning on multiclassing but I'm having trouble deciding with what. I've always had a soft spot for sneaky characters so rogue is tempting, but something a little beefier might be a good idea.

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