# Forum > Comics > Webcomics >  Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

## Rockphed

Freefall is a (relatively) hard sci comic about a boy squid and his dog antropomorphised wolf.  He is a daring adventurer intent on gaining wealth and fame.  She is a spacecraft engineer.  Together, they fight crime commit grand larceny for great glory (much to the chagrin of the uplifted wolf).

Recently, the main characters have been hired to track down unexplained losses in the asteroid belt and are prepping for their first journey beyond the orbit of the planet Jean.

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## Kantaki

Heh. :Small Amused: Maybe terrans are peaceful _because_ the stuff they build creates death rays as a byproduct.
Imagine what woulds happen if they build something that creates them deliberately... :Small Eek:

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## Lethologica

It strongly reminds me of Larry Niven's Known Space universe, where humans at one point abolish war and all but eradicate violence, and experience a golden age of peace...until a warlike alien species comes calling, and then it turns out humanity's peaceful spaceships accidentally carry terrible weapons:




> The other ship began to turn away from its tormentor. Its drive end glowed red.
> 
> "They're trying to get away," the Captain said, as the glowing end swung toward them. "Are you sure they can't?"
> 
> "Yes, sir. That light drive won't take them anywhere."
> 
> The Captain purred thoughtfully. "What would happen if the light hit our ship?"
> 
> "Just a bright light, I think. The lens is flat, so it must be emitting a very wide beam. They'd need a parabolic reflector to be dangerous. Unless" His ears went straight up.
> ...

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## Rockphed

Now that you mention it, Freefall does have a certain Larry Niven feel to it.  And somehow, that story is the only one I remember of Larry Niven.  Well, I remember the plot of _The Ringworld Throne_ or maybe _The Ringworld Engineers_, but I mostly found those books a little confusing.

What surprises me is that Sam thinks humans are peaceful.  How many times have people formed an angry mob with the intent of stringing Sam up without his pressure suit?

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## Rogar Demonblud

But that's part of the traditional fun and games on his homeworld. So it's not a threat, just a ritual. Besides, the whole thing ends with ice cream.

This comic, oddly enough, is generally good about giving you a chance to look at some of the issues involved in sci-fi tropes. I hadn't given much thought to how sending most of your colonists as embryos (or genetic colonists in Freefall parlance) would effect society.

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## Rockphed

> This comic, oddly enough, is generally good about giving you a chance to look at some of the issues involved in sci-fi tropes. I hadn't given much thought to how sending most of your colonists as embryos (or genetic colonists in Freefall parlance) would effect society.


Part of why I like Freefall is its tendency to slip in social commentary and sci-fi navel gazing and still be consistently funny.

I was re-reading the early strips, and holy wow batman was Sam a lot less likeable.  Maybe the right word is "maliciously incompetent".  I know a lot of it is done for laughs, but I am still a little surprised that Florence didn't get seriously hurt until the hurricane.

Edit: I think this strip might be where Sam goes from being a zany and idiotic villain to just being zany and idiotic.

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## Rogar Demonblud

The hard thing to remember with Sam is that he is not a human, does not think like one and has a cultural value system that is at right angles to ours. It just takes a while at the beginning for that to become clear.

I have a standing bet with one of my fellow geeks that Sam will be dead by the time this strip has had a year pass in-continuity. Of course, considering the speed of the plot, neither of us may be alive to have that dinner.

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## Rockphed

> The hard thing to remember with Sam is that he is not a human, does not think like one and has a cultural value system that is at right angles to ours. It just takes a while at the beginning for that to become clear.
> 
> I have a standing bet with one of my fellow geeks that Sam will be dead by the time this strip has had a year pass in-continuity. Of course, considering the speed of the plot, neither of us may be alive to have that dinner.


To be clear, are you betting that Sam will survive, or that Sam will auto-darwinate before the year is out?  I mean we have already seen an entire month pass, haven't we?

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## Willie the Duck

> Now that you mention it, Freefall does have a certain Larry Niven feel to it.  And somehow, that story is the only one I remember of Larry Niven.  Well, I remember the plot of _The Ringworld Throne_ or maybe _The Ringworld Engineers_, but I mostly found those books a little confusing.


When did you read them (how old were you at the time)? 




> What surprises me is that Sam thinks humans are peaceful.  How many times have people formed an angry mob with the intent of stringing Sam up without his pressure suit?


The way that Sam runs around in society, clearly as a member of society (the store clerk might keep themselves between him and the register, but he's not treated like a wild animal had just entered the premises, much less like a serious threat), indicate to me that he's widely regarded as a nuisance character more than anything else. The ease at which angry mobs form indicate to me that the citizens of Jean are profoundly bored people. The whole comic has a bit of a Mayberry feel to it -- all the stakes are small and the crooks are no real threat and everyone ends up with ice cream... right up until the wolf engineer reminds everyone that they are using nuclear power and trusting a few millimeters of metal to protect them from the pitiless deadliness of space or the incompetent CEO tries attempts AI genocide.

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## guttering flame

We know the AI got built-in violence inhibition. Maybe the colonists were brainwashed similarly. I'm sure the mayor/governor would like nothing better.

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## Willie the Duck

> We know the AI got built-in violence inhibition. Maybe the colonists were brainwashed similarly. I'm sure the mayor/governor would like nothing better.


I suspect it might also be cultural. They are on a just-recently really good at supporting life, and otherwise have been in a spacefaring culture where even a little violence could doom everyone (the old bullet hole in a space ship issue, or just plain 'you killed the only guy who knew how to...' scenario). 

There's some sizable thought that the only way to get off this rockball we currently reside on is to become better at cooperation. I don't know if I buy it, but I can see the author putting it in their comic easily.

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## Rogar Demonblud

> To be clear, are you betting that Sam will survive, or that Sam will auto-darwinate before the year is out?  I mean we have already seen an entire month pass, haven't we?


My bet is a half-rack of ribs if Sam gets killed. And yes, we've had about five weeks pass in a strip that's been running for-----what, seven years?

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## TaRix

> My bet is a half-rack of ribs if Sam gets killed. And yes, we've had about five weeks pass in a strip that's been running for-----what, seven years?


Yes, if you mean seven-teen. This thread led me to reading the whole darn thing and took two whole vacation days.  One April Fools' Day strip didn't load, but maybe that was intentional.

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## Rogar Demonblud

That long? Okay, at that rate of progress we should reach the end of the year about 2175 or so. No way I have to pay out on that prime rib, but if Sam kicks early I can still collect my ribs. Odds are even more in my favor.

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## Rockphed

Freefall is over 20 years old.  The first item in the index is




> The adventure begins!  4/9/1998


And I expect the trip out to an asteroid to be time compressed.  There are only so many hijinks Sam can get up to mid voyage without earning a mauling.

At least they are going to leave the fluffy piranha at home.  I think Winston bringing his dog would doom Sam.

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## SZbNAhL

As a point of comparison, Freefall is older than I am.

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## Lethologica

Oh man, Niven, Pournelle, and Heinlein, all in one update, haha.  (Although air not being free is a much more generic reference these days, I suppose.)  Transfer station definitely makes me think of jump points in _Mote in God's Eye_, but I haven't read the other Niven/Pournelle collaboration/s so I don't know if there's a more specific referent.

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## hajo

> we've had about five weeks pass in a strip


The events in the whole strip have happened in just 29 days.

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## Rockphed

> The events in the whole strip have happened in just 29 days.


He has 2 "Day 29"s on there.  I assume that the second is supposed to be "Day 30".  Wow, I would have pegged at least 6 weeks as having passed.

Edit: I forgot to answer this.




> When did you read them (how old were you at the time)?


I think I was in my mid to late teens (so 16 - 18).  I also never read _Ringworld_, so I might have missed the most important one.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Florence is scaring me again.

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## guttering flame

> Florence is scaring me again.


Her ideas sound great but are they at all practical? The initial investment in time, resources and man/robotpower is vast. Where would she get it?

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## Rockphed

> Her ideas sound great but are they at all practical? The initial investment in time, resources and man/robotpower is vast. Where would she get it?


Well, she did just save every robot on the planet from drooling-idiotdom.  At the same time, I am fairly certain that the energy required to move that much dust into a new solar-system is prohibitive.  That is even assuming that those dust levels are even close to accurate.  I suspect that the dust between us and Alpha Centauri wouldn't be enough to form a red dwarf, much less a new sun, but then I am a pessimist.

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## guttering flame

> Well, she did just save every robot on the planet from drooling-idiotdom.  At the same time, I am fairly certain that the energy required to move that much dust into a new solar-system is prohibitive.  That is even assuming that those dust levels are even close to accurate.  I suspect that the dust between us and Alpha Centauri wouldn't be enough to form a red dwarf, much less a new sun, but then I am a pessimist.


So a couple of million willing robot hands can give a helping hand on their spare time when they're not helping keep up their planet's economy and human happiness. That's a drop in the ocean of resources that's needed for this. Timewise the project probably take aeons if we're very generous. I don't see the mayor and all the other planets in the area giving their resources for this.

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## Willie the Duck

I feel that Florence is talking more pie in the sky, long term. Kind of like when she was talking about the more efficient use of suns would be to disassemble them and use them as power plant fuel.




> Well, she did just save every robot on the planet from drooling-idiotdom.  At the same time, I am fairly certain that the energy required to move that much dust into a new solar-system is prohibitive.  That is even assuming that those dust levels are even close to accurate.  I suspect that the dust between us and Alpha Centauri wouldn't be enough to form a red dwarf, much less a new sun, but then I am a pessimist.


How to capture interstellar particles is indeed the problem. How much dust is between us and Alpha Centauri depends on what you mean by between (how wide a cylinder you are drawing), but of course the wider you draw it, the harder it is to grab the stuff at the far reaches. 

Not for building stars, but merely for travel, the concept was conceived of as Bussard Ramjets, which would be fusion rockets, which would use these magnetic collectors to pull in hydrogen to use as fuel. The feasibility of such things are stymied by the fact Sol sits in a low-density pocket of the galaxy, and because we haven't really perfected man-made fusion to be that super energy source we'd hoped it would be yet.

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## halfeye

Nice Niven joke.

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## Rockphed

> Nice Niven joke.


I wonder what the Kzinti would think of Sam Starfall.  They would probably decide that his species was delicious and go about figuring out how to farm them.

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## Willie the Duck

> I wonder what the Kzinti would think of Sam Starfall.  They would probably decide that his species was delicious and go about figuring out how to farm them.


New intelligence test (by the Black Priests) for female cubs --realizing what a horrible idea that is.  :Small Big Grin:

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## Rockphed

> New intelligence test (by the Black Priests) for female cubs --realizing what a horrible idea that is.


Better or worse idea than smuggling mini-moties out of the Mote system to sell as pets?

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## Willie the Duck

> Better or worse idea than smuggling mini-moties out of the Mote system to sell as pets?


That's a little like asking if it's better to give your children a cougar or hyena for Christmas -- 'Who cares? They're both terrible ideas!'

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## Rogar Demonblud

Yeah, Sam, sometimes I get that feeling too.

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## Rockphed

I occasionally see a meme that Earth is a death-world.  Frankly, I would like to see it get more traction in media.

The only one I can think of is a book by Allen Dean Foster (I think) about warring space alliances where humans are essentially supermen.  We are stronger, faster, and better at the whole "fight people" thing.  Pretty much every other book either has Earth as a fairly typical world, or has Earth as a garden world.

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## Rogar Demonblud

In other words, the old line about how we nailed our god to a tree, so don't screw with us?

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## geoduck

Saberhagen's Berserker novels sort of go this route; we humans get turned.. or maybe 'nudged'.. into being Berserker-killers by another alien species, because we're really good at it.

There's also a bit in one of Harrison's Bil the Galactic Hero novels where the eponymous fellow ends up on a robot-inhabited planet where water is considered a deadly poison.

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## halfeye

> I occasionally see a meme that Earth is a death-world.  Frankly, I would like to see it get more traction in media.
> 
> The only one I can think of is a book by Allen Dean Foster (I think) about warring space alliances where humans are essentially supermen.  We are stronger, faster, and better at the whole "fight people" thing.  Pretty much every other book either has Earth as a fairly typical world, or has Earth as a garden world.


There are a whole bunch online under the heading Humanity F*** Yeah.

The Deathworlders is the main one, currently 51 plus (there is at least one multi-page chapter, I don't remember whether there are more) pages, each page about 2-3 hours of reading. I have the current page bookmarked but there's no obvious way from there to the first page.

There are these two in the same setting by different authors, currently on hiatus for at least six months, I don't remember the last time either posted, but they are  a decent length per page, but nothing like as long per page as the main one:

https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/wiki/series/salvage

https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/wiki/se...make_good_pets

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## hajo

> There are a whole bunch online under the heading Humanity F*** Yeah.
> 
> The Deathworlders is the main one, currently 51 plus ..
> there's no obvious way from there to the first page.


See jenkinsverse - essential_reading_order.

It's a nice scenario, but all the aliens seem to not use robots and automation right, considering that they already have good computers, sensors and software.

I.e. why use weak soldiers, when you could use robots and/or automated stationary guns (eg. repelling boarders/pirates) ?

Also, most military types come across as fairly boneheaded  :Small Annoyed:

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## halfeye

> See jenkinsverse - essential_reading_order.


Thanks for that. It probably means some sleepless nights getting through at a minimum the ones I don't recognise on (re)reading.

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## Rogar Demonblud

> It's a nice scenario, but all the aliens seem to not use robots and automation right, considering that they already have good computers, sensors and software.
> 
> I.e. why use weak soldiers, when you could use robots and/or automated stationary guns (eg. repelling boarders/pirates) ?
> 
> Also, most military types come across as fairly boneheaded


Those two thoughts may be related. :Small Wink:

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## Rogar Demonblud

And now Niomi reminds us that economics still exists in a world bordering on post-scarcity. And that there are certain drawbacks to being a canoid.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Some tried and true parenting advice for you today.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Return of the Fluffy Space Piranha!

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## Rockphed

I thought they were trying to avoid a race of fluffy space piranha by leaving the animated dust-mop with Niomi's children.

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## Jasdoif

> I thought they were trying to avoid a race of fluffy space piranha by leaving the animated dust-mop with Niomi's children.


Apparently Sam doesn't know that.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Yup. He just knows that every time the fuzzball gets within lunging distance of him, he's a chew toy.

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## Grey_Wolf_c

I'm loving the montage. 

Relatedly*, is this the fastest the comic has ever moved? Or rather, I suppose what I'm after is what is the highest number of strips it has taken Freefall to cover 24 hours?

Grey Wolf

*The browser dictionary keeps putting a squiggly red line under "Relatedly". Is it not a word?

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## halfeye

> *The browser dictionary keeps putting a squiggly red line under "Relatedly". Is it not a word?


Dictionaries are limited. Some miss some words entirely, some miss sufficiently compounded words. The Oxford English Dictionary is some large (double digit?) number of volumes, I have a copy of the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, it's two chunky volumes and it's been steadily going out of date since I bought it many, many years ago.

Someday every dictionary will be unified, and all out of date at once.

"Relatedly" looks like a word to me, and that's about as good as it gets (I know that's pretty bad, I don't think it gets any better if you dig deeper).

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## Rogar Demonblud

> I'm loving the montage. 
> 
> Relatedly*, is this the fastest the comic has ever moved? Or rather, I suppose what I'm after is what is the highest number of strips it has taken Freefall to cover 24 hours?
> 
> Grey Wolf
> 
> *The browser dictionary keeps putting a squiggly red line under "Relatedly". Is it not a word?


Yes, relatedly is a word. Most spellcheckers only hold 30-35% of the words in the English language, so they're pretty useless if you actually have a high school level vocabulary.

As for what's the longest day, we don't know. First, time is often not properly sign posted in comic. Second, most people can't count that high. I think the whole trial day arc was about 400, though.

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## SZbNAhL

> Most spellcheckers only hold 30-35% of the words in the English language, so they're pretty useless if you actually have a high school level vocabulary.


Nobody's a prefect typist; it helps to have something that can catch typos.

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## Grey_Wolf_c

> Yes, relatedly is a word. Most spellcheckers only hold 30-35% of the words in the English language, so they're pretty useless if you actually have a high school level vocabulary.


I have a ESL vocabulary instead, and I find them to be exceedingly useful.




> Nobody's a prefect typist; it helps to have something that can catch typos.


Indeed. Also, I'm guessing you did that on purpose?

Grey Wolf

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## Jasdoif

> Or rather, I suppose what I'm after is what is the highest number of strips it has taken Freefall to cover 24 hours?


According to the author's posted timeline...day 24 spanned 2282 to 2676; making a total of 395 strips.

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## SZbNAhL

> Indeed. Also, I'm guessing you did that on purpose?
> 
> Grey Wolf


It was origninally a real typo, but I noticed and intentionally didn't correct it because it was too good a chance to pass up.

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## halfeye

> Yes, relatedly is a word. Most spellcheckers only hold 30-35% of the words in the English language, so they're pretty useless if you actually have a high school level vocabulary.


Most of the words in the English language aren't used by most English speakers. I remember hearing that there were a million words in English a long time ago. It must have been twenty years or more, it could be fourty, by now that could easily have doubled. The vocabulary of the average native English speaker is something like 20,000 words, really clever people more than double that, but it's almost nothing to a million words.

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## TaRix

Wow, something Terran that Sam doesn't (yet) find scary.

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## Willie the Duck

> Wow, something Terran that Sam doesn't (yet) find scary.


It actually makes sense. The very reason that capsaicin exists is so that most animals will not eat peppers, but birds (who have no receptors for it, and btw also distribute seeds more distantly, given that they fly) will eat them. It makes sense that a non-terran would not either.

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## halfeye

> It actually makes sense. The very reason that capsaicin exists is so that most animals will not eat peppers, but birds (who have no receptors for it, and btw also distribute seeds more distantly, given that they fly) will eat them. It makes sense that a non-terran would not either.


There are several "Hot" tastes that don't involve capsaicin at all (Horse radish, radish, mustard, black/white pepper, ginger (for all I know there may be hundreds)). I'd like to see the hottest possible scoville zero sauce, I would bet (and I generally don't bet) that it's pretty freaking hot.

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## Radar

> There are several "Hot" tastes that don't involve capsaicin at all (Horse radish, radish, mustard, black/white pepper, ginger (for all I know there may be hundreds)). I'd like to see the hottest possible scoville zero sauce, I would bet (and I generally don't bet) that it's pretty freaking hot.


I could not find exact numebers for the food products, but at least for the capsaicinoids family of substances there is a nice table on Wikipedia. Anything above capsaicine is a neurotoxine. Frankly so is the capsaicine

The way the Scoville scale is defined, it could easily be used for any hot food product as long as the extraction process has the same efficiency, which might be an issue. The best I found is this article which has a nice list of different spicy substances, but there was no universal test done to compare them unfortunately.

Quick browsing of scientific papers on pungency scales reveals that there are various tests and scales developed but one would need to dig deeper to find some comparative studies of different substances.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Sam learns an important lesson in delayed gratification, but misapplies it. Also, notice nobody is sitting close enough to allow him to steal test answers.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Aww, the dust mop has a Sam Starfall squeeky toy. I'm guessing those are popular, Sam being Sam. Too bad he didn't license his likeness.

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## Rockphed

You know, I didn't notice the Sam Starfall squeaky toy.  That is a cool detail.

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## Rogar Demonblud

About the only good thing to having read Erfworld for a while is that I look for visual jokes now.

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## Rogar Demonblud

And speaking of visual jokes and in-references, the April Fools Day strip is up.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Heh, nice callback. I'll have to look to see if I can link the strip where Florence talks about ways to get around the programming locks, since one of them was 'stealing air'.

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## Jasdoif

> Heh, nice callback. I'll have to look to see if I can link the strip where Florence talks about ways to get around the programming locks, since one of them was 'stealing air'.


This  one?

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## Rogar Demonblud

Yup. Need to archive binge this strip again sometime.

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## Rogar Demonblud

And Sam has discovered his life motto: "For the LOVE of Money!"

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## Grey_Wolf_c

> Yup. Need to archive binge this strip again sometime.


I strongly recommend the use of this webpage when binge'ing freefall.

Kinda wish it was available in more webcomics, but it's the only one I'm aware of.

Grey Wolf

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## Rockphed

> I strongly recommend the use of this webpage when binge'ing freefall.
> 
> Kinda wish it was available in more webcomics, but it's the only one I'm aware of.
> 
> Grey Wolf


That is a very neat site.  I shall have to avoid it lest I spend all my time binging freefall.

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## Rockphed

... and now Sam is attempting to start a war between the fundamental forces of nature.  I don't foresee that ending well.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Och, they'll just chase him around for a while and then break for ice cream. Like everyone else.

Sam never faces real consequences for the stuff he pulls.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Is it wrong of me to hear Ship's voice as the PA system from M*A*S*H?

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## geoduck

I've somehow had the impression the ship's voice is female.

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## Rogar Demonblud

Probably because most starship voices are done by actresses. Aside from HAL and Aliens Resurrection, can you think of a ship with a male voice?

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## Willie the Duck

Also the (non-absolute, with abounding exceptions) tendency of declaring ships to be _'she's.'_

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## SZbNAhL

> Also the (non-absolute, with abounding exceptions) tendency of declaring ships to be _'she's.'_


As the Scottish Maritime Museum is learning right now, attempting to change that tradition is more trouble than it's worth.

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## Rogar Demonblud

New Freefall, in which Sam learns a lesson about gravity and shows some grasp of practicality.

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## halfeye

> New Freefall, in which Sam learns a lesson about gravity and shows some grasp of practicality.


Your link is dead. The comic is still there, somehow the link doesn't reach it.

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## Rogar Demonblud

The link is correct, it's just that some browsers won't use the strip number when the strip is also under the 'default' page url.

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## halfeye

> The link is correct, it's just that some browsers won't use the strip number when the strip is also under the 'default' page url.


That's a very interesting definition of "correct".

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## Rogar Demonblud

Not my fault some coders ignore two of three valid urls for the same page. Heck, I can't even remember the third, since it takes up to a month to work on a Microsoft or Google browser.

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## Radar

> That's a very interesting definition of "correct".


Since the URL will work properly in all browsers once a new strip shows up, it is indeed correct - it is just some browsers that have a problem. On the other hand using the "default" URL will make the link incorrect the moment a new strip shows up.

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## Ibrinar

In what browser does it work before that? Because that is a weird bug to be browser specific and I am curious about it.

Edit: Interesting in http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3300/ no fc03273.htm is listed though the gif is. If that actually exist and  is accessible for some browser something is screwy with access limitations. Going by last modified dates the htm pages are always either created or modified days after the gif.

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## Douglas

I'm pretty sure this is an issue on the server, not in any browser. It is the server's responsibility to recognize that X url means Y page, and that's the issue here.

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## Rogar Demonblud

And now we finally learn why some idiot trusted Sam with a spaceship (even if a nonfunctional one).

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## sihnfahl

> And now we finally learn why some idiot trusted Sam with a spaceship (even if a nonfunctional one).


Well, to be fair, if it wasn't for Florence, Sam would still be landbound.
A circumstance no human there could have foreseen.

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## SZbNAhL

> Well, to be fair, if it wasn't for Florence, Sam would still be landbound.
> A circumstance no human there could have foreseen.


He acquired her through theft. How could Sam stealing literally anything possibly be unforseen?

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## sihnfahl

> He acquired her through theft. How could Sam stealing literally anything possibly be unforseen?


Florence literally wasn't even in the sphere of Things He Could Steal.  He had the ship for a few months before Florence even arrived in cryosleep.

And the idea of him actually stealing a living engineer would be seen like a bad plot device in a B-grade science fiction movie.

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## SZbNAhL

> Florence literally wasn't even in the sphere of Things He Could Steal.  He had the ship for a few months before Florence even arrived in cryosleep.
> 
> And the idea of him actually stealing a living engineer would be seen like a bad plot device in a B-grade science fiction movie.


They knew that Bowman's wolves exist. Heck, there are probably stealable robots who could have fixed the ship. Anybody who didn't think Sam could/would steal one, even if there weren't any in that star system, isn't very familiar with him.

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## sihnfahl

> They knew that Bowman's wolves exist.


But not that not only would on be on its way, but also someone would 'mess up' the paperwork to assign her to the wrong ship.




> Heck, there are probably stealable robots who could have fixed the ship.


The robotic laws would still apply to those robots.
And Sam keeps running afoul of those laws.

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## Grey_Wolf_c

> They knew that Bowman's wolves exist.


The existence of an individual that was a) single-handedly competent enough to fix the ship ; 2) willing to work for Sam for no pay for sufficient amount of time to fix the ship ; and iii) wouldn't take over leadership of a ship hard-coded to obey humans over aliens is not something the people who sold the wreck to Sam would be expecting.

Grey Wolf

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## Rogar Demonblud

Heck, he probably stole Helix.

Anyway, Sam continues to give the ship migraines.

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## Willie the Duck

No one could have expected Florence specifically. What they could have predicted was that their resourceful opponent would surprise them. We don't know much about the people who gave Sam a ship in the hope that he'd kill himself, but we know that he annoyed them. To do that, he likely showed of to them some of his 'resourcefulness' (and let's be clear, he's crazy resourceful, kinda like a racoon but with access to human language). 

This exact outcome was unpredictable. Giving a resourceful entity a force/effect-multiplier and them using it to do something unpredictable and amazing was predictable. If Racoons get into a car I have on my property, I can't predict that they will take it on they highway and go joyriding, but I could have predicted that they'd manage to get the parking break disengaged, and if it were on a hill, they would be creating chaos.

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## Rockphed

> Heck, he probably stole Helix.
> 
> Anyway, Sam continues to give the ship migraines.


I don't remember where it gets said, but I am fairly certain that Helix was sent by the Mayor to spy on Sam and Sam convinced him that a life of petty crime was better.  I think Sam would describe it as "liberating", and would be pleasantly surprised that that term already has usage for stealing from your opponents.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Guess who's back.

----------


## Kantaki

Well, his reasoning _is_ valid.
Utterly reprehensible and showing an utter disregard for sapient lifeforms, but valid.
I shall keep it in mind for the next time someone brings up that exercise. :Small Amused:

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

It's kind of the opposite of the situation with Doctor Bowman where Florence gave the 'wrong' answer that was actually right.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And Florence again shows she could be an apprentice to Vetinari.

----------


## Rockphed

I've said it before, I'll probably say it again, Florence really has Sam's number.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Unfortunately, Sam doesn't have the lookup number for Sqid mythology.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Given what we've seen of Sam, the first lesson is a bit stating the obvious.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

The battle is not to the strong, nor the race to the swift.

Put another way, Sam is still teaching.

----------


## Rockphed

Just so long as we don't see too much of the sqid's anatomy. I understand it drives men mad.

----------


## Kantaki

> Just so long as we don't see too much of the sqid's anatomy. I understand it drives men mad.


Didn't their cuteness trigger the human feeding reflex? :Small Eek: 
Yeah´, better not. :Small Amused:

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Interesting. It looks like Sqid are cold-blooded.

----------


## Rockphed

> Interesting. It looks like Sqid are cold-blooded.


And they are all delusional.  After all, what better way to respect someone than to steal from them?

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Hey, keep your Terra-centric attitude to yourself.

Actually, it reminds me of the Jaegers. Only a hat from a worthy foe is worth taking.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

For some reason, I anticipate hearing any words Mho speaks in Flintheart Glomgold's voice.

----------


## Kantaki

You know, someone should tell Sam to sell books with those stories.
There's loads of money in heist-comedy.

----------


## SZbNAhL

> You know, someone should tell Sam to sell books with those stories.
> There's loads of money in heist-comedy.


No fun in that. Sam's always cared more about stealing money than making or having it.

----------


## Kantaki

> No fun in that. Sam's always cared more about stealing money than making or having it.


Exactly. Sam sells the stories, other people make money off them and he steals it.
Classic Win/Win Situation. :Small Tongue:

----------


## DavidSh

Oh.  I didn't get the name before.  Now waiting for Curly to show up.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Oh.  I didn't get the name before.  Now waiting for Curly to show up.


Well, if this is an origin/how-they-met scenario, they need to start with Shemp for his _Soup to Nuts_ appearance, and then he can be replaced for a dozen years or so.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

I'm guessing it'll be Shemp, actually. Curly doesn't make sense to people with no hair to be snide about the lack thereof.

----------


## DavidSh

If they're going for an exact match, they'd have to bring in a Ted Healy analog, which doesn't appear to be happening.  And they seem to be doing something with hairstyles -- Mho has Moe's bowl-cut and Lairee has something that might be a hairstyle.

----------


## PhantomFox

Taking bets on that Sam is making this up as he goes, and stole the plot directly from the obvious inspiration?

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

If cricket and gin & tonics are universal constants, I see no reason the Stooges can't be as well.

----------


## Cazero

> Taking bets on that Sam is making this up as he goes, and stole the plot directly from the obvious inspiration?


All in accordance with Sqid storytelling tradition.

----------


## Gez

> I'm guessing it'll be Shemp, actually. Curly doesn't make sense to people with no hair to be snide about the lack thereof.


No one said they needed hair! Curly is now Coily.

----------


## Kantaki

> All in accordance with Sqid storytelling tradition.


Isn't making stuff up as you go based on some blatantly stolen inspiration a universal storytelling tradition? :Small Tongue:

----------


## Cazero

It was. Then the Sqid stole it.

----------


## Kantaki

> It was. Then the Sqid stole it.


That's terrible!
We need to steal it back. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## geoduck

> No one said they needed hair! Curly is now Coily.


It's also a reference to the original Curly's accent in the Stooge shorts- "Soitenly!"

----------


## Kantaki

Well, I guess you could call that disarming the traps. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Radar

> Well, I guess you could call that disarming the traps.


This is almost like people did it in the first editions of D&D, but they used minions and pack animals for this line of work. There is also this guy (if you do not know this comics and like superheores, give it a try).

----------


## Kantaki

> This is almost like people did it in the first editions of D&D, but they used minions and pack animals for this line of work. There is also this guy (if you do not know this comics and like superheores, give it a try).


Ah, yeah. Mr. I can catch blades with my eyeballs.
At least he has the excuse of having DR-_yes_/_yes, even then_. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Cazero

...This is going to end with an angry mob of sqid chasing after Mho, isn't it.

----------


## Radar

> ...This is going to end with an angry mob of sqid chasing after Mho, isn't it.


I can see it, yes. Besides, it *is* a tradition among sqid.

----------


## Fyraltari

That god has been remarkably patient until now. This may change soon.




> ...This is going to end with an angry mob of sqid chasing after Mho, isn't it.


Very likely yes.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

When in doubt, set it on fire, right?

----------


## Rockphed

> When in doubt, set it on fire, right?


Pillage, then burn.

----------


## Lord Raziere

I'm definitely beginning to understand why the Sqids never made it past the steam engine.

if this myth is actual Sqid Myth or is anything similar to it, then Sam is probably considered one of the more foolhardy members of his race due to his similarity to the Sqids in this myth, and the average Sqid is probably a lot more cautious than him. he did say something about his species hiding back in their hole if they found out how much they've been overtaken without something for them to go for. 

I'd imagine that it is probably a real myth, just with the names changed so that the others can understand.

----------


## Willie the Duck

It's also being filtered through Sam's perspective, so that might explain some part of why these squids are so Sam-like.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

BOB looks so depressed.

----------


## Kantaki

> BOB looks so depressed.


Wouldn't everyone?

Realizing that a bunch of idiots who only aren't diagnosed as brain-dead cause they're brain-_less_ not only outsmarted tricked beat you through creative application of their stupidity but also pointed it out to you causes that kind of direction.

I've seen it happen more than once. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Maybe he should make like Haley and drink heavily for a bit?

----------


## Cazero

I just got why each sqid has their own personal design of walking sticks. Using the same model as anyone else is just asking to have them stolen.

----------


## Kantaki

> I just got why each sqid has their own personal design of walking sticks. Using the same model as anyone else is just asking to have them stolen.


Plus if everyone uses the same walking sticks no one would know where (or that) you stole yours.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And we know that that's more important to the Sqid. They're a "Species of Thieves and Con Artists" done right.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

That's a very good point Florence raises. Nobody wants to see Disneyfied Sqid.

----------


## Rockphed

> That's a very good point Florence raises. Nobody wants to see Disneyfied Sqid.


Is that a subtle dig at the recent Lion King remake?  I think it is a subtle dig at the recent Lion King remake.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

No, it's a dig at how Disney is allegedly vacuuming up all the IP ever. Generally said by people who'd rather be squatting on the IP instead of making their own, then mindlessly imitated by others.

The rest is another swipe at how ugly the Sqid are.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Never tell an engineer they can't make coffee, for they will accept the challenge.

----------


## Douglas

> Never tell an engineer they can't make coffee, for they will accept the challenge.


And why is this a bad thing? :Small Confused:

----------


## TaRix

> And why is this a bad thing?


Well, later, when you find three vital subsystems cannibalized for parts...

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

"Der Haff Bin Tree Expl'zuns Zo Var."

----------


## Willie the Duck

> And why is this a bad thing?


The same basic reason that you do not build equipment with safety features so onerous that you know people will remove them, or how British sailors used to get a rum ration to discourage every engine room from sprouting a still, etc. In 'everything is crucial' situations like the military or realistic spaceflight, knowing and preparing for human nature, rather than letting it take its' course (to the detriment of mission readiness in some way), is usually advisable.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

The rum ration vastly predates engine rooms. It was a thing before there was an actual Royal Navy.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> The rum ration vastly predates engine rooms. It was a thing before there was an actual Royal Navy.


The engine room part was my hyperbolic addition, but I don't see how it changes the basic concept -- you give the crew booze so that they don't do it behind your back in ways that will be detrimental.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

How would they make it? Basic fermentation requires water, sugar and heat. You only have the water in the casks, no source of heat and the only sugar you get access to is the occasional issue of fruits and vegetables. Plus, sailing ships aren't exactly noted for lots of space.

----------


## HorizonWalker

> How would they make it? Basic fermentation requires water, sugar and heat. You only have the water in the casks, no source of heat and the only sugar you get access to is the occasional issue of fruits and vegetables. Plus, sailing ships aren't exactly noted for lots of space.


Fermentation doesn't actually require any heat beyond ambient "not freezing" temperatures. You're thinking of distillation.

As for a source of sugars, you forget that starches are sugars. Ever heard of kvass? It's a kind of beer made from bread. Also, even if they do use fruits... well, they might be so bold as to steal from the ship's stocks, if they're already breaking the rules with their still.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> How would they make it? Basic fermentation requires water, sugar and heat. You only have the water in the casks, no source of heat and the only sugar you get access to is the occasional issue of fruits and vegetables. Plus, sailing ships aren't exactly noted for lots of space.


My goodness you are obsessed with specifics (especially since booze was already a leap from coffee). Most likely they would instead smuggle a stash onboard, potentially doing something dangerous like replacing important equipment either on the cargo manifest or in the cargo hold. However, as HorizonWalker pointed out, they could set up a still even before boiler rooms. Finding appropriate glasswear pre-industrialization might be the biggest challenge. I wonder how well crockery would work...

Honestly I figured my "not build equipment with safety features so onerous that you know people will remove them" part of the comment was what would have drawn attention.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

You really know nothing about life on a sailing ship, do y'all? There is no space not crammed full of gear or supplies before you leave port, there are no vegetables or fruits unless you are in port (in which case you just buy booze from a bumboat) and the only bread is hardtack. And the only water is in casks and closely monitored as it is literally your lifeblood once you're out of sight of land. You do not have the makings for fermentation-based products. And without heat it will take months for the product to be made, which is plenty of time for the daily inspections to find your still. And once it is found, well, at best you get a hundred lashes for sabotaging the ship. If the captain wants to make a point, you get hung without trial and your back pay forfeited to the ship's purser for his general profits).

----------


## Willie the Duck

> You really know nothing about life on a sailing ship, do y'all?


It seems a pretty big stretch to make that assumption based on what has been said in this thread. I fully stated that the still was hyperbolic extrapolation and that the likely age-of-sail equivalent would be a stored stash, and HorizonWalker was speaking about the more general process of alcohol creation not needing heat. 




> There is no space not crammed full of gear or supplies before you leave port, there are no vegetables or fruits unless you are in port (in which case you just buy booze from a bumboat) and the only bread is hardtack. And the only water is in casks and closely monitored as it is literally your lifeblood once you're out of sight of land. You do not have the makings for fermentation-based products. And without heat it will take months for the product to be made, which is plenty of time for the daily inspections to find your still. And once it is found, well, at best you get a hundred lashes for sabotaging the ship. If the captain wants to make a point, you get hung without trial and your back pay forfeited to the ship's purser for his general profits).


This is literally the point of discussion. Understanding human behavior and nipping it in the bud before it becomes a problem. That is the why of the rum ration-- so that people don't do anything stupid and that insubordinate actions don't happen in the first place (for example, people didn't have stills in their age-of-sail vessels. You do realize that that is what we were arguing, not the opposite, right?). Risk of serious consequence does not stop people from doing reckless things and that is literally the point people were discussing (with alcohol, and later alcohol pre-engine rooms, being at most tangential side points).

----------


## Razade

> You really know nothing about life on a sailing ship, do y'all? There is no space not crammed full of gear or supplies before you leave port, there are no vegetables or fruits unless you are in port (in which case you just buy booze from a bumboat) and the only bread is hardtack. And the only water is in casks and closely monitored as it is literally your lifeblood once you're out of sight of land. You do not have the makings for fermentation-based products. And without heat it will take months for the product to be made, which is plenty of time for the daily inspections to *find your still*. And once it is found, well, at best you get a hundred lashes for sabotaging the ship. If the captain wants to make a point, you get hung without trial and your back pay forfeited to the ship's purser for his general profits).


What are you talking about? For someone who is so casually dismissive about people "knowing nothing about life on a sailing ship" you...don't seem to know what you're talking about when it comes to brewing. You don't need a still to make alcohol. You just need yeast (something you're going to have. It's everywhere and you don't need to collect it, it'll collect itself), water (yeah this'll be the hard part) sugars and some kind of carb. Sure. You'd probably want barley or malt, to make it taste good, but your hardtack is going to do you well enough if you crush it up and throw it in the mix. The yeast will love that. It also won't take "months" as you say. Beer takes around two weeks to brew. Shorter if you're not picky on how it tastes. We'll get to that in a second.

Then you just need a jug or some other receptacle in that you can keep as airtight as possible and then you've got the makings of really *really* crappy booze. But it'll get you drunk. Especially if you throw in all the preserved fruits you can muster (which naval sailing ships absolutely kept). That'll give the yeast more to eat and thus produce more alcohol. It'll still taste like utter death but again. The goal is to get drunk, not taste something good.

If you can make booze in prison (and you can) then you absolutely can make it on a sailing ship. Not only did they do it, they kept rum rations on ships as mentioned because the water would go south quickly and they'd have to use the booze to make it both flavorful and kill the bacteria in the water. Grog was a thing. You're also just totally off base on what sorts of food were kept at sea. You know that ships kept provision logs and we have access to a good number of them? They had all sorts of preserved fruits, cheeses, oatmeal, rye and course flour in their larders. 

Not only that. Ships _had_ the ability to brew beer at sea. Here's an excerpt from "_A Voyage towards the South Pole and Round the World Performed in His Majestys Ships the Resolution and Adventure_"

"It hath been a constant observation, that in long cruizes or distant voyages, the scurvy is never seen whilst the small-beer holds out, at a full allowance; but that when it is all expended, that ailment soon appears. It were therefore to be wished, that this most wholesome beverage could be renewed at sea; but our ships afford not sufficient convenience. The Russians however make a shift to prepare on board, as well as at land, a liquor of a middle quality between wort and small-beer, in the following manner. _They take ground-malt and rye-meal in a certain proportion, which they knead into small loaves, and bake in the oven. These they occasionally infuse in a proper quantity of warm water, which begins so soon to ferment, that in the space of twenty-four hours their brewage is completed, in the production of a small, brisk, and acidulous liquor, they call quas, palatable to themselves, and not disagreeable to the taste of strangers"_

The author, a one James Cox, mentions that while their ship did not have the provisions to brew beer the Russian ships did. They did it in the same way I suggested they might have without actually having checked for sources of actual historical precedent too. Or near enough. So ya know. A+. I'd be a good Ship's Brewer. Not just because I know the recipe but because I've made beer before.


I'm curious what your credentials are Mr. Demonblud, if that is your real name, on living on a sailing ship. I've brewed beer. Without a still. In an AC controlled apartment. I'd link you to like, a hundred youtube videos demonstrating this point as well but I feel I've already done enough to blow your ship out of the water.

tl;dr - They made beer on sailing ships. Without getting in trouble because they realized how super important it was to the lives of every single crewmember on board. There is historical evidence to this fact.

----------


## Fyraltari

Is Niomi falling in panel 2?

----------


## Willie the Duck

> What are you talking about? <Snip>.


Razade, thanks for doing what I keep asking people to do when they want to showcase supposed knowledge on forum like these: actually provide it (and/or providing links or bibliographic reference to said material, such that we can independently verify). Given that Rogar didn't bother carefully reading what people had said (such that he excoriated HorizonWalker and myself for holding the exact opposite positions as we had actually stated), I think it safe to say that this was deliberate drivel. 




> Is Niomi falling in panel 2?


Falling, drifting, controlled careening, there are probably lots of ways to frame it. It does look like she is using her feet and the floor to guide her movement. Regardless, she is moving to the back of the ship, which is on much less than 1 gee of acceleration -- too low for "proper" coffee brewing (which I assume is drip- or perk-). Sam, already at the 'bottom' of the corridor, is using the acceleration to keep him affixed to his seat, and thus is oriented to treat the direction in which the ship is travelling as 'up.' All of this highlights the unusual-for-sci-fi situation where a ship that looks like it was built for artificial gravity is used in a more realistic setting.

----------


## Fyraltari

Right, I forgot it was less than 1g.

----------


## Razade

> Razade, thanks for doing what I keep asking people to do when they want to showcase supposed knowledge on forum like these: actually provide it (and/or providing links or bibliographic reference to said material, such that we can independently verify). Given that Rogar didn't bother carefully reading what people had said (such that he excoriated HorizonWalker and myself for holding the exact opposite positions as we had actually stated), I think it safe to say that this was deliberate drivel.


I'm still waiting for Mr. Blud to respond. I'd like to know his credentials since they seem suspect in the first place. Claiming there was no fruit or similar (the only bread being hard tack which...it wasn't for instance) makes me think he's never been on a sailing ship. Or at least he's never read a provison's log for a ship in the time that long-distance travel was a thing.

----------


## HorizonWalker

Mark Stanley: I need to pick up the pace, and tell my stories a lot shorter.

Also Mark Stanley: Let's spend a month learning the very basics of ionizing radiation and the damage it can do, for no reason other than demonstrating and satisfying Sam's curiosity.

----------


## geoduck

> Mark Stanley: I need to pick up the pace, and tell my stories a lot shorter.
> 
> Also Mark Stanley: Let's spend a month learning the very basics of ionizing radiation and the damage it can do, for no reason other than demonstrating and satisfying Sam's curiosity.


Eh, the "you'll be fine as long as you stay inside the ship" comment pretty much guarantees he'll have to go outside the ship at some point.

----------


## HorizonWalker

> Eh, the "you'll be fine as long as you stay inside the ship" comment pretty much guarantees he'll have to go outside the ship at some point.


It would, _if_ Mark Stanley were an adept storyteller. He is not. I fully believe that he's just spent a month or so talking about radiation hazards solely because he wanted to talk about radiation for a month, and thought it'd be a fun diversion on the trip.

----------


## Cazero

You don't get it. The comic is a lure. We've all been tricked into learning something.

----------


## Radar

In a way, you can tell what kind of educational or vocational background writers have, since they very often build on that or very much indulge in their passion. For example, it would be no surprise to anyone that Tolkien was a linguist. Umberto Eco poured his whole academic background into The Name of The Rose (one of the most amazing things about it was the author's detailed comment on why the whole plot needed to take place exactly there and then due to historical reasons, how he needed to design the library to make the fire possible etc.).

Mark Stanley is a nuclear engineer (as far as I recall). For better or for worse he likes to delve into details about physics, machines and all things related. At the very least I can say he introduces all those pieces of information in a way that works with the characters. The question about radiation would be very much something Sam would ask given the situation and we got actual interaction between him and Florence instead of a dry infodump. Microgravity movement lessons were really fun actually and it is also nice to see that Sam got the hang of it as can be seen in recent strips.

It might be boring for some people, but done right knowledge sharing can be really fun.

----------


## Rockphed

Add "asking a human to recreate a smell is like asking a blind man to forge a rembrandt" to the awesome quotes from Free Fall list.

Maybe we should actually compile said list.

----------


## gbs5009

Wow, for a member of a race of scavengers with an cultural disregard for property rights, Sam's a heavy sleeper.

Maybe they can wake him up by trying to lift his wallet.

----------


## Rockphed

> Wow, for a member of a race of scavengers with an cultural disregard for property rights, Sam's a heavy sleeper.
> 
> Maybe they can wake him up by trying to lift his wallet.


They have songs to sing while looting.  I am impressed at how well they sleep.

----------


## Cazero

Apparently, their hearing is _very_ selective while asleep.

----------


## gbs5009

> Apparently, their hearing is _very_ selective while asleep.


Yep.  Looks like I was on the right track, but Florence was a little nicer in her execution.

----------


## Fyraltari

I am a bit confused by the reasonning here.

If Niomi starts talking at t=0, stops at t=30 and starts again at t=60, her speech will reach her interlocutor at t=15 to t=45 who will then start to talk between t=45 to t=75 but that speech will reach Niomi at t=60 just as she is starting to talk again.

How is that convienent? Am I missing something?

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

She's setting it up so you wait for a moment to make sure the person on the other end has finished what they're saying. The lag is a separate issue.

----------


## Fyraltari

wouldnt it just be more conviennent to say over when youre done so that the other knows they can speak and everybody just waits for the other to be done?

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

It would, if "over" wasn't a ridiculously common word.

But you would get lines like:

"What's the vector, Victor?"
"Roger, Roger."
"Oveur, over."

Personally, I'd probably use something like End of Line, but then I grew up at a time where Tron was one of the best sci-fi movies available.

----------


## Fyraltari

> It would, if "over" wasn't a ridiculously common word.
> 
> But you would get lines like:
> 
> "What's the vector, Victor?"
> "Roger, Roger."
> "Oveur, over."
> 
> Personally, I'd probably use something like End of Line, but then I grew up at a time where Tron was one of the best sci-fi movies available.


In French its à vous/toi meaning your turn or sometimes over which isnt a common word in French since, you know, its an English word.

----------


## DavidSh

> I am a bit confused by the reasonning here.
> 
> If Niomi starts talking at t=0, stops at t=30 and starts again at t=60, her speech will reach her interlocutor at t=15 to t=45 who will then start to talk between t=45 to t=75 but that speech will reach Niomi at t=60 just as she is starting to talk again.
> 
> How is that convienent? Am I missing something?


Indeed, what you predicted is what actually happened.  I think Niomi just made an error. The rule for complete utilization of the channel is for each party to talk for the one-way time (15s), and then listen for the same amount of time.  The results may take some getting used to, because what you hear when you listen came from someone who hasn't yet heard what you just said.

Or the cartoonist made an error, and is unsuccessfully trying to present the case where the child starts responding as soon as the child hears the parent speak.

----------


## Rockphed

I am always amused by the ways that Florence goes out of her way to enforce her position in civilization.  The chopsticks are one.  Not drinking in front of other people is another.

----------


## TaRix

Heh.  My workplace is like Niomi's "old employers", as well as our third-party technicians, and probably management.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

I haven't even heard of a company or institution that does things the way Florence does. Surely she is a superior being and the sooner we put her in charge, the better.

----------


## Cazero

Wait. There are people who buy redundancy in their systems, and then just wait for every redundant part to also break before starting repairs? That's not just laziness, that's throwing money away.

----------


## Rockphed

> Wait. There are people who buy redundancy in their systems, and then just wait for every redundant part to also break before starting repairs? That's not just laziness, that's throwing money away.


Electronics sometimes work that way.  You might have 5 or 6 extra input ports and just swap inputs around if something breaks.  If enough break to drop the system below acceptable performance you replace a much bigger section all at once.  This is not really the same as what Florence and Niomi are doing.  I'm not even sure what a packing leak is.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

"Packing" is what you put around a system with fluid to absorb any small, occasional leaks (say, from a joint flexing slightly under a pressure change), usually things like steam lines. This was one of the original uses for Asbestos, BTW. If you have a leak big enough to make it through the packing, well, it's messy to fix, but you have to because it generally signals bigger problems, starting with a serious loss in efficiency.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

> Wait. There are people who buy redundancy in their systems, and then just wait for every redundant part to also break before starting repairs? That's not just laziness, that's throwing money away.


Depends on how you're looking at it, what the goals for that redundancy were. If your goal is to be able to continue working unimpeded when something breaks, thus saving money, then yeah, waiting for everything to break is a terrible plan. If your goal is to save money on repairs, though, it makes more sense to wait for the back-ups to break, too, so they can be repaired at the same time - theoretically doubling how long you went without a break for a relatively minor increase in repair costs. Which one's a better idea depends on a lot of things, including how disruptive getting repairs done is, how expensive the parts are relative to the cost of labor for repair, and how bad it would be if whatever it is stops working for a time.

On a spaceship, dealing with a critical system that can be easily and non-disruptively repaired, Florence's approach is absolutely the right one, though.

----------


## Rockphed

> On a spaceship, dealing with a critical system that can be easily and non-disruptively repaired, Florence's approach is absolutely the right one, though.


Not least because their major enemy on this trip is boredom.

----------


## Fyraltari

By the way can somebody explains to me what the pod from two strips ago is and what it does? Some kind of fuel for the reactor?

----------


## sihnfahl

> By the way can somebody explains to me what the pod from two strips ago is and what it does? Some kind of fuel for the reactor?


Fuel for the engines.  Newton's Third.  Consume mass to push the spaceship.

Reactionless drives don't use fuel at all.  But they're, ah, 'perpetual motion machines'.  AKA - ain't happening.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> By the way can somebody explains to me what the pod from two strips ago is and what it does? Some kind of fuel for the reactor?





> Fuel for the engines.  Newton's Third.  Consume mass to push the spaceship.


Specifically, it is reaction mass. Their ship got launched into orbit with the mag launcher, picked up cargo and reaction mass and left, and is now picking up additional reaction mass along the way. I'm not sure exactly where these fuel pods come from, or how they are moving at a convenient-to-grab speed and trajectory (I forget, has this all been explained?), but it makes sense for such a setup to exist. It isn't unlike modern commerce, where a semi truck picks up a trailer of goods and fuels up, then fuels up in places along the way. Obviously it makes you reliant upon said infrastructure, but it makes all the sense in the world: why bother accelerating you, your cargo and _all_ your fuel/reaction mass if you can pick up more along the way?

----------


## Fyraltari

Thank you.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And Sam finally shows his snout again.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Specifically, it is reaction mass.


I thought that superfluous to note, since it's part of the second panels' text.




> I'm not sure exactly where these fuel pods come from, or how they are moving at a convenient-to-grab speed and trajectory (I forget, has this all been explained?), but it makes sense for such a setup to exist. It isn't unlike modern commerce, where a semi truck picks up a trailer of goods and fuels up, then fuels up in places along the way. Obviously it makes you reliant upon said infrastructure, but it makes all the sense in the world: why bother accelerating you, your cargo and _all_ your fuel/reaction mass if you can pick up more along the way?


It wasn't, but she did say it was 'launched' several weeks ago.  So they had already placed it in orbit in anticipation for the mission (if not the specific ship).

As for the speed and trajectory - trajectory is easy enough to calculate (we do it all the time to get cargo ships to the ISS), and reference the laser for speed.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Depends on how you're looking at it, what the goals for that redundancy were. If your goal is to be able to continue working unimpeded when something breaks, thus saving money, then yeah, waiting for everything to break is a terrible plan. If your goal is to save money on repairs, though, it makes more sense to wait for the back-ups to break, too, so they can be repaired at the same time - theoretically doubling how long you went without a break for a relatively minor increase in repair costs. Which one's a better idea depends on a lot of things, including how disruptive getting repairs done is, how expensive the parts are relative to the cost of labor for repair, and how bad it would be if whatever it is stops working for a time.


And frequently, whether the supervisor/manager is abstracted/short-sighted enough to disapprove of spending time/money making repairs that won't significantly improve near-term performance.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> It wasn't, but she did say it was 'launched' several weeks ago.  So they had already placed it in orbit in anticipation for the mission (if not the specific ship).
> 
> As for the speed and trajectory - trajectory is easy enough to calculate (we do it all the time to get cargo ships to the ISS), and reference the laser for speed.


Okay, yes, so someone sent them there, in the right place, going the right speed and trajectory. That does mean that someone already had the means of launching them, and spent the energy/fuel to put those pods in motion. It does, to me, reinforce the semi truck analogy. Someone else has put a lot of energy into infrastructure, and the ship is there to provide the engine and the oversight to turn that into a cargo delivery.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Someone else has put a lot of energy into infrastructure, and the ship is there to provide the engine and the oversight to turn that into a cargo delivery.


Not just the cargo.  Sam as well.  He's, ah, going as an 'expert' in ... well, stealing.

I mean, theoretically, they could use an unmanned cargo ship.  Lob the cargo into orbit, catch it with a space tug, then send it to a trajectory that the station could receive it with their own tug.

----------


## Thomas Cardew

Several months ago, when first planning the expedition, it's explained that the launcher sends out the pods several days/weeks before they leave. Since they're accelerating with ships drive they'll eventually catch up to pods, resupply, and consume them. This supply launch is a large part of their initial investment in the trip, getting the fuel in place for them to be able to make the trip. That's what Florence is talking about in this strip. I didn't keep searching for the full explanation as it's even further back.

EDIT NVM here it is, only 200 ish strip ago. http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3200/fc03192.htm

----------


## Rockphed

> Several months ago, when first planning the expedition, it's explained that the launcher sends out the pods several days/weeks before they leave. Since they're accelerating with ships drive they'll eventually catch up to pods, resupply, and consume them. This supply launch is a large part of their initial investment in the trip, getting the fuel in place for them to be able to make the trip. That's what Florence is talking about in this strip. I didn't keep searching for the full explanation as it's even further back.
> 
> EDIT NVM here it is, only 200 ish strip ago. http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3200/fc03192.htm


My basic understanding is that they could have made the trip without the initial launches, but that they actually get there faster by delaying their departure by a couple weeks to set up the reaction mass drops.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Yeah, basically prepositioning some tankers so you don't have to keep as sharp an eye on the fuel gauge.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> EDIT NVM here it is, only 200 ish strip ago. http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3200/fc03192.htm


_"That's more outside help than I was expecting."
"It's like owning a trcuk. You can go from coast to coast on your own. It's a lot easier if you use the roads and filling stations."_

Alright. I guess I'm just restating the same concept that the author laid out at the start. Don't remember reading that, but I must have.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

I wonder what game Niomi is referencing. Only one that seems to fit would be Hide and Go Seek.

----------


## DavidSh

With the goggles and gloves it looks like an augmented reality computer game.  Though that might just be a reference to current events.  Maybe it's both, a loose historically-based game (that I just made up) called _Pandemic 2020_.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Those are safety goggles and work gloves. And she's specifically talking about seeking out and finding problems.

And I agree with Sam. There isn't much romantic in a romcom.

----------


## halfeye

> Those are safety goggles and work gloves. And she's specifically talking about seeking out and finding problems.
> 
> And I agree with Sam. There isn't much romantic in a romcom.


Maybe, but "mostly sterile" is not a species, evolution via natural selection just doesn't/can't work that way.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Maybe, but "mostly sterile" is not a species, evolution via natural selection just doesn't/can't work that way.


Errm, ants?


A species is fine as long as enough of its non-sterile members reproduce. And Sqid reproduction makes a lot of offspring if I remember correctly.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> Maybe, but "mostly sterile" is not a species, evolution via natural selection just doesn't/can't work that way.


A bee hive contains 1 female, a few hundred males, and several thousand individuals who are mostly sterile. Natural selection can work however it damn well wants.

Grey Wolf

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Maybe, but "mostly sterile" is not a species, evolution via natural selection just doesn't/can't work that way.


I'm just going to leave this here.

----------


## Jasdoif

> And Sqid reproduction makes a lot of offspring if I remember correctly.


A clutch is apparently large enough to support something like drive-by adoption.

----------


## halfeye

> Errm, ants?
> 
> 
> A species is fine as long as enough of its non-sterile members reproduce. And Sqid reproduction makes a lot of offspring if I remember correctly.





> A bee hive contains 1 female, a few hundred males, and several thousand individuals who are mostly sterile. Natural selection can work however it damn well wants.
> 
> Grey Wolf





> A clutch is apparently large enough to support something like drive-by adoption.


Bees, ants and some wasps, I will grant you, but the mother is alive and more or less in charge in those cases. Drive by adoption is not going to work, in my humble opinion, there isn't sufficient genetic connection.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Bees, ants and some wasps, I will grant you, but the mother is alive and more or less in charge in those cases. Drive by adoption is not going to work, in my humble opinion, there isn't sufficient genetic connection.


I hear humans practice adoption on occasion; it seems viable.  And in a species where neither parent survives as a matter of course, there's little basis to expect a hereditary connection to be a factor in the first place.

----------


## HorizonWalker

> Bees, ants and some wasps, I will grant you, but the mother is alive and more or less in charge in those cases. Drive by adoption is not going to work, in my humble opinion, there isn't sufficient genetic connection.


Considering Sam's claim that puppies are more loyal and easier to paper-train, and also that Sqids are pre-industrial, it makes perfect sense to me that most Sqids would see the value in grabbing a kid or three- that's more hands to help out on the farm, after all.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> Bees, ants and some wasps, I will grant you, but the mother is alive and more or less in charge in those cases. Drive by adoption is not going to work, in my humble opinion, there isn't sufficient genetic connection.


Penguins have been known to practice adoption - it usually makes the news when its a same-sex male couple adopting some abandoned egg (which makes it obvious the egg cannot be from either partner). Adoption is a perfectly viable strategy. And of course, as Jasdoif points out, there are plenty of species - I know mostly of fish - where parents dying is also a valid strategy.

Grey Wolf

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Sam also compares where his species is to Earth's Devonian period. I doubt there are farms.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

I can see the argument for intelligence being unlikely to develop with the Sqids' reproductive cycle. How does natural selection favor intelligence when the only ones who are old enough to display it are also sterile? (I believe it was stated that Sqids reproduce before being old enough to be called truly sentient; someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

But there are numerous ways that could actually happen. Intelligent adults are more capable of protecting and feeding their reproduction-capable nephews and nieces. The young Sqids could be favoring intelligent mates even though it's not directly advantageous to them (see the _many_, often arbitrary, ways animals select for mates on earth). Or they could still be benefiting from increased intelligence, just not as much as their older relatives, thus still causing natural selection to favor increased intelligence.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> I can see the argument for intelligence being unlikely to develop with the Sqids' reproductive cycle. How does natural selection favor intelligence when the only ones who are old enough to display it are also sterile? (I believe it was stated that Sqids reproduce before being old enough to be called truly sentient; someone correct me if I'm wrong.)
> 
> But there are numerous ways that could actually happen. Intelligent adults are more capable of protecting and feeding their reproduction-capable nephews and nieces. The young Sqids could be favoring intelligent mates even though it's not directly advantageous to them (see the _many_, often arbitrary, ways animals select for mates on earth). Or they could still be benefiting from increased intelligence, just not as much as their older relatives, thus still causing natural selection to favor increased intelligence.


With our not-particularly-large sample population of 1 extant intelligent species, a species that most definitely does not primarily select for intelligence when selecting sexual partners, I am not sure we can say anything definite of how intelligence species arise from natural selection. But if I had to guess, I'd say the crux is extelligence* - the ability to preserve knowledge beyond an individual's death. Which means that long-living "uncles" capable of passing on knowledge to each successive generation would probably be a key component, even if they themselves don't pass on their genes, because they still pass on knowledge, which is a key component of intelligence.

Grey Wolf

*Credit: Ian Stewart, Jack Cohen & Terry Pratchett's Science of Discworld

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Well, we have an official name for another one of Harem's alts--Co-Ed.

----------


## Kantaki

> Well, we have an official name for another one of Harem's alts--Co-Ed.


Wrong Thread.

Edit: I think we can all feel with Niomi here. :Small Amused:

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Arrgh, hazard of having multiple tabs open at once. At least autocorrupt didn't strike.

----------


## HandofShadows

I guess that people don't really know that Sam is one heck of a pilot when he want's to be. I mean how many people can get a blimp to do a loop?  :Small Cool:

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And for Mother's Day, we get a reminder that Florence's adoptive mother taught her to cook. Or tried, at least.

----------


## Cazero

Silly Niomi. Florence can _smell_ your lack of appreciation.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And we're finally wrapping up the letters home segment and moving on to the station. Can Sam actually be a force for law and order? Will Winston's family accept Florence, or will she be obliged to kick their butts? Will Helix be able to avoid getting knocked to pieces yet again?

Stay tuned.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

I wish I could've pulled that trick off when my kids fell asleep on my arm back in the day.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Wow. Hot sauce really is a commodity here, if the air traffic person wants two bottles unseen untasted.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Wow. Hot sauce really is a commodity here, if the air traffic person wants two bottles unseen untasted.


Considering their remoteness and the costs of transportation, ANYTHING beyond the basic necessities is most likely a commodity.

----------


## Rockphed

> Wow. Hot sauce really is a commodity here, if the air traffic person wants two bottles unseen untasted.


My understanding is that people who live in space habitats tend to have constantly clogged sinuses.  This leaves them unable to taste things normally.  So things that are spicy both enable them to have tasty food and to clear out the sinuses for a little.  I do remember that their attempt to get paid twice for this trip was to bring along things that were light and valuable, which mostly ended up being pepper plants and hot sauce.  I think they have a few replacement parts for the station, but Florence insisted on them bringing those at cost.  They also are going to deliver the back-up reactor and get a replacement reactor for the Savage Chicken.

Honestly, I expect Sam to burn all their profits from this trip in about 2 hours when they get back Jeanside.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well. i Dont know. he seemed to have grown a little better at handling finanse?
Partly i guess, from not really having the attention span to really burn off cash.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Mostly because he prefers not to pay for anything. Is it still a five-finger-discount if you have an uncounted number of tentacles?

----------


## sihnfahl

> Well. i Dont know. he seemed to have grown a little better at handling finanse?


He's probably better at handling finances after having taken a basic accounting class.

The last thought says it all.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Speaking of that class, I'm delighted by the ongoing joke of Sam finding accounting an engrossing and enlightening subject, simply because it expands the realm of larcenies available to him.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Speaking of that class, I'm delighted by the ongoing joke of Sam finding accounting an engrossing and enlightening subject, simply because it expands the realm of larcenies available to him.


Quasi-legal ways to play the system to his benefit.

There's larceny, and then there's Larceny.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> There's larceny, and then there's Larceny.


And Sam is a connoisseur!

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And now we see the effects of time in microgravity. Especially if you skimp on the required exercise. I'll bet a quatloo Florence isn't having any problems.

----------


## Rockphed

> And now we see the effects of time in microgravity. Especially if you skimp on the required exercise. I'll bet a quatloo Florence isn't having any problems.


I'll take that bet, though my money is on Florence have significantly less problems.  I expect this for 3 reasons: first, she has spent time on a space station before (I think, can't even guess where it was mentioned in comic), second, I think she shares a lot of genetic benefits with Winston (who has the full spacer kit and experiences less bone and muscle loss), and third,  I think she has more self discipline than either Niomi or Sam.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

She mentions explosive decompression drills and envying Sam for his ability to change underwear without taking his suit off. Significant station time seems to be a given.

----------


## Rockphed

Okay, so is Florence having problems because she hasn't walked on 2 legs for a month, or because she didn't exercise as often as she should have?

----------


## Kornaki

Have you ever been on a boat for a while, then when you get off the boat you feel like the land is rocking underneath you? It's probably just that multiplied by 10000.  They haven't experienced actual gravity in a long time it's going to take a little getting used to.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

It still feels weird to not see Florence in a shipsuit.

----------


## Rockphed

> It still feels weird to not see Florence in a shipsuit.


Her yellow coveralls are indeed more natural looking than anything else.

----------


## Cazero

It's just a fur+clothing mindclash.
The jumpsuit cover enough fur that you can ignore it, but the classy dress reveal enough to maximise the problem.

Solution : teach real world monkey to wear casual clothes, and create widely popular sitcom starring them. It might be a _tad_ unethical.

----------


## Psionic Dog

> Okay, so is Florence having problems because she hasn't walked on 2 legs for a month, or because she didn't exercise as often as she should have?


Could just be the sudden shock all astronauts seem to experience after returning to gravity. 

Alternatively: she spent too much time opting for 4-leg fun exercise. http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3500/fc03413.htm

----------


## TaRix

> It's just a fur+clothing mindclash.
> The jumpsuit cover enough fur that you can ignore it, but the classy dress reveal enough to maximise the problem.
> 
> Solution : teach real world monkey to wear casual clothes, and create widely popular sitcom starring them. It might be a _tad_ unethical.


You mean, this little experiment?  Do be careful if you dig extensively, though-- there's earworm-grade stuff in there and stuff you'll never unsee.
Ethical schmethical.  When does a media company act unethically?

----------


## Rockphed

Dang it, Sam!  At least put on Helix's animal disguise before you ride him.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Way to bury the important part, Ship.

----------


## theangelJean

Niomi describes herself as "unreasonable" and "selfish".  

Sam apparently aspires to being these things ... I can see him thinking he's currently the opposite :P

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Nah, it's just that, like any pro, Sam knows there's always more to learn steal.

----------


## Fyraltari

This is the scienciest way to call someone cute.



Theyll get along just fine, it seems.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

I think she has Mom's seal of approval.

----------


## sihnfahl

Hmm.  Interesting.

"There is insufficient cranial capacity to accommodate the volume of neurological matter required for the degree of sentience we desire.  Do we:
1) Expand the cranium, thus making the individual look more human-like and less animalistic.
2) Make the skull thinner
3) Increase the efficiency of neuronal connections and myelin, particularly in the parietal lobe
4) Reduce spine flexibility to use it as an 'extension' of cranial space."

----------


## Willie the Duck

Definitely seems like the more AI-like solution. Rearranging the brain to be like one of the more intelligence-per-brain-mass/volume species like crows and parrots could be another solution, but might have made Florence less 'doglike' and we do get lots of mileage out of her trying to balance being a sentient member of society and having doglike instincts (plus Mark gets to make up the rules for spinal neuromatter).

----------


## sihnfahl

> Rearranging the brain to be like one of the more intelligence-per-brain-mass/volume species like crows and parrots could be another solution...


That was option #3.  IIRC, those factors do play a bit into heightened intelligence and are more determined by genetics.

It doesn't stop instincts - I mean, smart folks can do pretty silly things because of instincts...

Like, you know, grabbing a hot item as it falls...

----------


## Willie the Duck

> That was option #3.  IIRC, those factors do play a bit into heightened intelligence and are more determined by genetics.
> 
> It doesn't stop instincts - I mean, smart folks can do pretty silly things because of instincts...
> 
> Like, you know, grabbing a hot item as it falls...


Yes it is #3, I wasn't trying to dispute your list of options. I was explaining why I thought Mark didn't go that route, and my hypothesis is that it would make Florence's brain less 'dog-like' whereas putting the burden onto an enhanced spinal chord is a purer 'sci fi mumbo-jumbo' answer.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> Hmm.  Interesting.
> 
> "There is insufficient cranial capacity to accommodate the volume of neurological matter required for the degree of sentience we desire.  Do we:
> 1) Expand the cranium, thus making the individual look more human-like and less animalistic.
> 2) Make the skull thinner
> 3) Increase the efficiency of neuronal connections and myelin, particularly in the parietal lobe
> 4) Reduce spine flexibility to use it as an 'extension' of cranial space."


5a) Watsonian: reuse the algorithm we already use in robots that don't have the cranial capability for the centralized processing unit
5b) Doylist: someone pointed out to the author that her head is too small, so 1 wasn't an option. And 2, 3 & 4 are equivalent handwaves, so go with the one that gives her an armoured backbone.

GW

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Niomi is using Sam as a negotiating tool. She really was the better person to handle this; Florence would be paying retail happily.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> Niomi is using Sam as a negotiating tool. She really was the better person to handle this; Florence would be paying retail happily.


Oh, it'd be worse. She'd buy the excuse about the broken airlocks, pay the extra, and probably offer to repair the 'locks at cost. Niomi is correct: Florence is too nice to negotiate. Of course, that does mean she makes friends like no-one's business, and that has significant advantages, but I suspect she overpays often.

Grey Wolf

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Depends. Is she smiling with :Small Big Grin:  or without :Small Smile:  teeth?

----------


## theangelJean

Did anyone else read Niomi's first speech bubble in Blunt's voice?  And then for some reason I assumed it was the Chicken (which doesn't talk like that, anyway) negotiating with the station about the fees.

----------


## Rockphed

> Oh, it'd be worse. She'd buy the excuse about the broken airlocks, pay the extra, and probably offer to repair the 'locks at cost. Niomi is correct: Florence is too nice to negotiate. Of course, that does mean she makes friends like no-one's business, and that has significant advantages, but I suspect she overpays often.
> 
> Grey Wolf


When she deals with other engineers I suspect she gets the right price every time.  When non-engineer people get involved, however, you are probably right.

----------


## lord_khaine

> When she deals with other engineers I suspect she gets the right price every time. When non-engineer people get involved, however, you are probably right.


There are as such also plenty a-hole engineers. Or at least enough.
But spooking that guy with having Sam Starfall unleashed upon the station was well deserved.
for that matter, raising the docking fee without warning is a incredibly dumb move.
Its like straight up sending out a message you would prefer to have less traders come and sell you supplies.

----------


## Rockphed

Anyone want to place bets on why the rebuilders say they weren't paid?  My money is on this whole thing ending up being a case of not enough money on the PN junction somehow.

----------


## lord_khaine

Hmm.. no there should be a deeper issue.
By the sound of it, everyone has problems with parts and labor. 
I find it more likely someone are skimming profits a little to heavily.

----------


## Kornaki

The real question is who would be dumb enough to re-use a contractor after stiffing them the last time?  Something doesn't add up.

----------


## sihnfahl

> The real question is who would be dumb enough to re-use a contractor after stiffing them the last time?  Something doesn't add up.


Someone who wants the station to fail so they can snap it up cheap when it hits the auction block?

----------


## Cazero

But we already have seen enough of Mr Kornada.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

He's hardly the only example. Remember, he was viewed as normal until he tried to wreck the entire planet.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Someone who wants the station to fail so they can snap it up cheap when it hits the auction block?


Now thats a good guess. Someone intentionally trying to run the station into the ground.
Pretty likely as well.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> But we already have seen enough of Mr Kornada.


I agree with this. I also agree that it would be perfectly plausible that it is yet another "run it down, buy it when it's cheap" [unprintable], but the comic has already done that bit. It'd be lovely if it tackled a different scenario this time around - say, if the problem is literally scarcity: it could be they can't pay for the pumps because they are waiting for their creditors to pay them, who are waiting for their creditors to pay them, and so on until the whole system is on the verge of total lockdown because there is not enough liquidity to go around. Not because it is more plausible than another rich bastard trying to become even richer, but because we haven't seen it yet.

Grey Wolf

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

But how could Sam fix that?

Also, we again see that Sam is nice and practical, even if it comes from different base considerations than we use.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> But how could Sam fix that?


The same way he fixes anything: if he can lie, cheat and steal his way into a solution, he will. Otherwise, he'll tell Florence, and she'll tell the truth, deal honestly and generously act her way into a solution. Likely a combination of both.

ETA: If the scarcity is caused by too many people hoarding what little they have rather than letting wealth flow, then both approaches can work, come to think of it. Obviously, stealing the reserves and putting it back into circulation works, as does convincing one party to act on trust, and take the first step in breaking the chain.

Grey Wolf

----------


## Radar

They may also lose liquidity from a trade imbalance as there is a lot of supplies they need to import to keep the station going, but there might be not that many things that they could sell back to the planet.

----------


## lord_khaine

In that case the question becomes if the station is economically sound.
If its not, then it should just be closed down again. 

If it serves an important function for mining/stuff, then the planet should take over running it.

----------


## Radar

> In that case the question becomes if the station is economically sound.
> If its not, then it should just be closed down again. 
> 
> If it serves an important function for mining/stuff, then the planet should take over running it.


I think it is the latter case as it is a transit station, but it does not mean that all financial problems are over. A lot of government-run institutions can end up heavily in debt, if they are underfunded or improperly managed. There is also a possibility of a hybrid situation, where the station as a whole is administrated by the government, but most of even the essential services are left to private companies as it cuts down costs of the operation and off-loads responsibility.

----------


## lord_khaine

Some of the comics are good.
Some of the comics in the archive are really good.

http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2500/fc02413.htm

This is one of the later i felt a need to share  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Rockphed

> Some of the comics are good.
> Some of the comics in the archive are really good.
> 
> http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2500/fc02413.htm
> 
> This is one of the later i felt a need to share


Ah, Sam...he truly is a reasonable tentacled horror from beyond the stars isn't he.

I like the next few too.  I especially love Sam's worldview.

Edit: Or there's the time the chief breaks Sam.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Yet more benefits to living in an environment suit. As if allergy season wasn't inducement enough.

----------


## Rockphed

> Yet more benefits to living in an environment suit. As if allergy season wasn't inducement enough.


I give even odds that they make him put on a hard hat, ear muffs, and goggles.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

You mean they make him, or Sam takes the opportunity to steal?

----------


## Rockphed

> You mean they make him, or Sam takes the opportunity to steal?


How do you feel about both?  Both is good.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And now we see the importance of bringing along a guide dog engineer. So they can tell you whether you need to run or it's already too late for that.

----------


## Fyraltari

Oh boy, this is bad. This is *not* the kind of negligence you can allow on a space station.

----------


## Cazero

On the bright side, it's labeled with a number. We can expect some redundancy and hope machinery #2 _doesn't_ have all those station-wrecking issues.

----------


## Fyraltari

> On the bright side, it's labeled with a number. We can expect some redundancy and hope machinery #2 _doesn't_ have all those station-wrecking issues.


Of course not. Itll have a completely different set of station-wrecking issues.

----------


## Radar

> Of course not. Itll have a completely different set of station-wrecking issues.


Still, I vote for panic.

----------


## Lord Raziere

I mean, looking at it not knowing anything about engineering....first panel looks like leaking water, don't want water leaking cause its like, useful for a lot of things , you want to constantly recycle that because there is no other water around. might be used for other things, but mainly you probably want it to remain hydrated.

panel two looks like a power electricity thing. that isn't connected. thats probably not good, because wires, you making a station that like needs to emulate a planets ability to maintain a living environment on a small scale and that must never stop ever. so. power. important. thing not connected means no power to a thing. that bad.

third panel has a steam leak? ahm. first of all steam is very hot. like, fire levels of hot. don't touch the very hot mist. second of all, steam is used for a lot of things like, generating power, because steams probably whats making the magnet that generates electricity go spin and thus gives you power. so. thats probably important to everything.

I dunno I just woke up.

----------


## Radar

> I mean, looking at it not knowing anything about engineering....first panel looks like leaking water, don't want water leaking cause its like, useful for a lot of things , you want to constantly recycle that because there is no other water around. might be used for other things, but mainly you probably want it to remain hydrated.
> 
> panel two looks like a power electricity thing. that isn't connected. thats probably not good, because wires, you making a station that like needs to emulate a planets ability to maintain a living environment on a small scale and that must never stop ever. so. power. important. thing not connected means no power to a thing. that bad.
> 
> third panel has a steam leak? ahm. first of all steam is very hot. like, fire levels of hot. don't touch the very hot mist. second of all, steam is used for a lot of things like, generating power, because steams probably whats making the magnet that generates electricity go spin and thus gives you power. so. thats probably important to everything.
> 
> I dunno I just woke up.


Aside from the specifics, all three situations scream a single message: very sloppy maintenance. Things might kind of work for now, but it is more a question of when rather then if it will cause a disaster.

----------


## Rockphed

So we see a control valve (the big red wheel) that has a leaky housing.  That ain't easy to fix.  We have an electrical panel that is tagged out, but looks like it was abandoned halfway through work, and we have a steam housing that looks like it is over-pressure.  Yeah, this shop is being run worse than anything I have ever seen, and I worked for a company whose motto was "safety isn't important if you do everything right".

Edit to add: And I love that the author keeps including pictures of what look like real hardware.  I guess he is a nuclear engineer so he has lots of time to sketch the various industrial equipment around him between the occasional panic.

----------


## Radar

> Edit to add: And I love that the author keeps including pictures of what look like real hardware.  I guess he is a nuclear engineer so he has lots of time to sketch the various industrial equipment around him between the occasional panic.


He actually is as far as I remember. While there is no directly available information about the author, I kind of remember he did mention his occupation on a few occasions, when he had to delay updates.

----------


## Rockphed

> He actually is as far as I remember. While there is no directly available information about the author, I kind of remember he did mention his occupation on a few occasions, when he had to delay updates.


Sorry, my post should be read as "he gets lots of chances to stare blankly at equipment since he is a nuclear engineer", not "he must be an engineer because he draws industrial equipment so well".  And he is a nuclear engineer, though I couldn't find that information to save my soul.  He frequently mentions his adventures in engineering on the forum linked on the comic page (with the most recent being about contractors trying to steal nuclear contaminated ladders).  I even know where he works because he mentions it by name occasionally and it was the power plant that powered my home town.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

It's never a good sign when people have internalized the hazards as 'normal'. How long to get the other reactor into the Angry Chicken and hooked up?

----------


## Fyraltari

*Spoiler: The people running this place*
Show







> Edit to add: And I love that the author keeps including pictures of what look like real hardware.  I guess he is a nuclear engineer so he has lots of time to sketch the various industrial equipment around him between the occasional panic.


A nuclear engineer never panics. There is no state *between completely calm assessment of the situation* and *dead*

----------


## Rockphed

> A nuclear engineer never panics. There is no state *between completely calm assessment of the situation* and *dead*


And this is why I wouldn't make it as a nuclear engineer.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Wow. Sam meets someone who does not have the conditioned response to grab their wallet and flee.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> A nuclear engineer never panics. There is no state *between completely calm assessment of the situation* and *dead*


Or, to quote Terryandneil:



> [The nuclear engineer] didn't say "That's weird." He wouldn't have said "That's weird" if a flock of sheep had cycled past playing violins. It wasn't the sort of thing a responsible engineer said.


Grey Wolf

----------


## Kantaki

> Wow. Sam meets someone who does not have the conditioned response to grab their wallet and flee.


It's his first time there.
Give it a few minutes. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Lord Raziere

> It's his first time there.
> Give it a few minutes.


Indeed. he is kind of the troublemaker that is good for inciting a plot and he just saw a bunch of things that he could tell Florence. Sams not the gullible type and he should at least some experience from working with Florence, the question is, what mischief he will do before and after he does so. I doubt he fully believes the engineer saying its normal. it'll be interesting to see how he causes mischief in a fragile environment like a space station that requires precise maintenance and control without killing everyone.

----------


## lord_khaine

I suspect Sam will show he can indeed behave himself for a visit.
In this case he was given the challenge to figure out whats going on with the station.
And he seems pretty content to work on unraveling that mystery.

----------


## sihnfahl

Oh, Sam will behave himself ... mostly ... because if there's something Sam would probably love to see, it is how this particular scam is run.

And see if he can take advantage of it.   :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

If he can take advantage of it. It's sounding more like a general liquidity crisis.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> If he can take advantage of it. It's sounding more like a general liquidity crisis.


Yeah, incompetently managed finances can be very devastating, and its possible that a competent scam would at least try to make sure the station keeps running to save their own skin....unless the scammer isn't on the station.but yeah, this doesn't seem like a scam thing is, this all sounds like stuff that could be managed with a proper balanced budget. so whatever is happening, someone is misspending too much on certain things and not enough on the practical stuff to cause this kind of imbalance.

----------


## Kantaki

Clearly what Sam needs to do is to help them getting the station to run properly so scamming them is actually worth the effort.

I mean as things are now people are unlikely to form a mob when he tries something.
And without a proper chase there isn't really a point to pulling a scam.

Also, they kinda need the station to keep the planet running and to get to other worlds.
So Sam can scam them. :Small Amused:

----------


## sihnfahl

> If he can take advantage of it. It's sounding more like a general liquidity crisis.


You can take advantage of a general liquidity crisis ...

Consulting fees!

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

> Yeah, incompetently managed finances can be very devastating, and it's possible that a competent scam would at least try to make sure the station keeps running to save their own skin....unless the scammer isn't on the station. But yeah, this doesn't seem like a scam thing is, this all sounds like stuff that could be managed with a proper balanced budget. So whatever is happening, someone is misspending too much on certain things and not enough on the practical stuff to cause this kind of imbalance.


Oh felgercarb, and Sam just took his Accounting I final...

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Oh felgercarb, and Sam just took his Accounting I final...


Yup. he just needs to balance their budget to look like a hero, convince them that he should be the one to ALWAYS do that, then start salami-slicing their money after so he gets a cut of everything they do while they don't miss the one dollar he takes from everyone. it fits perfectly in his philosophy of "save a life to scam them over and over again forever".

----------


## lord_khaine

> Also, they kinda need the station to keep the planet running and to get to other worlds.
> So Sam can scam them.


Do we have any evidence thats the case?
As i recall it were just a space station. Not the space station.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Since it's the one where Winston's parents live, it's an asteroid that was foamed over and hollowed out.

----------


## Rockphed

> Since it's the one where Winston's parents live, it's an asteroid that was foamed over and hollowed out.


Are they permanent residents or are they travelers like Sam and Florence?

And this is the P/N junction, which I thought was only part of the way along their journey.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

If memory serves, they homestead. So this is their home.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> If memory serves, they homestead. So this is their home.


Which just makes them potential suspects for where the money is going. so. who do you think is the more irresponsible spender for a space station? Winston's mother or his father?

----------


## Radar

> You can take advantage of a general liquidity crisis ...
> 
> Consulting fees!


As Dogbert once said: _I like to con people and I like to insult people. If you combine 'con' and 'insult' you get 'consult'._

----------


## lord_khaine

> Since it's the one where Winston's parents live, it's an asteroid that was foamed over and hollowed out.


We have seen this station. Its not an astroid that has been foamed and hollowed out. 
This is not the homestead belonging to Winstons parents.
Its a transfer space station. Its closer to the village that they have a farm outside. 

As evident by todays comic, where we hear of the station manager.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Nothing is close in space. Especially in a setting that actually acknowledges delta-v.

I think we might be missing more data than previously assumed.

----------


## Kantaki

> Nothing is close in space. Especially in a setting that actually acknowledges delta-v.
> 
> I think we might be missing more data than previously assumed.


Of course things can be close in space.
Compared to Alpha Centauri the Moon is very close for example. :Small Tongue: 

Works just like with age.
Use the right frame of reference and everything is close/young.

----------


## Fyraltari

Nothing lawful can come out of this.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Isn't that a given with Sam involved?

----------


## memnarch

> Isn't that a given with Sam involved?


I would be disappointed if it wasn't.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## theangelJean

> Of course things can be close in space.
> Compared to Alpha Centauri the Moon is very close for example.
> 
> Works just like with age.
> Use the right frame of reference and everything is close/young.


And up until now, I had actually assumed that a Pournelle/Niven junction was a thing, and that it would be completely natural to put a transfer station there.  If they're going to make use of Lagrange points, why not?

(Once upon a time, I would have recognised the "P-n junction" for the pun it was.  Not in 20 years, though. It might have been pointed out in the forums here or there, though.)

Anyway, I assumed that it was somewhat like the Lagrange points, being kind of near a planet, but having some neat attribute similar to not being so far deep in a gravity well, so it would be a good place to start space travel, making useful to situate a transfer station there.  I figured that was close enough to a planet for "homesteading".  

Being as that was comjpletely wrong, a quick search of the Freefall archive shows that Winston's parents headed straight "out to the belt" on arriving in this system, so maybe the asteroid where they live is there, and that the space station was first described as a "station in the belt".  Asteroid belt has been floated as a decent place for space transfer before, being in a stable orbit but not within the gravity well of a planet - downside being having to navigate the asteroids on the way in, I guess.  So I guess "living in your own asteroid in the asteroid belt of a star system, not a planet" is what they mean by homesteading in this setting, and that makes them close enough to this space station for a visit.

Now I'm wondering why I assume there's AN asteroid belt in this system.  Theoretically, there could be multiple, right?  All you need is one smashed rocky planet?

----------


## memnarch

> ...
> 
> Now I'm wondering why I assume there's AN asteroid belt in this system.  Theoretically, there could be multiple, right?  All you need is one smashed rocky planet?


Could be multiple sure; I think one of the more recent theories for our own in Sol is that it's stuff that's been disturbed too much to turn into a planet in the first place so it just stayed as a bunch of rock. And it's not like it'd be your usual massive region of randomly moving, closely packed, enormous giant space rocks.  :Small Tongue: 

Actually, I think I remember listening to a sci-fi story that a system found without any asteroid belt, and it turned out that the only planet in the habitable zone was basically nothing but ocean and floating plant mats. So maybe a single detected asteroid belt would mean a better chance of a usable planet for living on/terraforming to live on whereas multiple could mean no usable planets (for humans)?

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

I think I know what's going on. Remember when Sam was studying embezzlements and he realized it was important to not take too much too quickly? Foreshadowing.

----------


## theangelJean

Reminds me of the place-before-last I worked.  One of the two owners decided to start using the capital to pay his mortgage, try bringing in his wife as a manager while driving out perfectly competent staff, threatening to sue the other owner etc.  

Problem was, it was a start-up, and he decided to do this when the business was barely a year old - basically as soon as the place had started to show a margin, not even a profit.

Wonder how that place is doing now.

----------


## sihnfahl

> So maybe a single detected asteroid belt would mean a better chance of a usable planet for living on/terraforming to live on whereas multiple could mean no usable planets (for humans)?


Might as well say that the lack of the presence of a giant planet in the system will reduce the chances of a usable planet for living on / terraforming, thanks to the gravity well's effects on wayward small bodies.

Course, randomness being randomness, it could also speed things up and lob them INTO the planet...

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Well, that was honest.

----------


## Rockphed

Is Winston's mom insane, or is she trying to stress test Florence to see what it would take to get her to go spare?

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

She gave herself a Bismarck mustache as a conversation starter. I'm going with insane, with a side order of embarrassing the heck out of her son for never visiting.

----------


## Rockphed

> She gave herself a Bismarck mustache as a conversation starter. I'm going with insane, with a side order of embarrassing the heck out of her son for never visiting.


I, for one, would visit my mother less often if she decided that clothing was optional indoors.  Of course she was rather involved in instilling my nudity taboo, so I doubt that will happen.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Is Winston's mom insane, or is she trying to stress test Florence to see what it would take to get her to go spare?


Yes.

Though if she is this crazy, one wonders how crazy Winston's dad is in other directions. they seem to be set up as opposites in their beliefs.

----------


## Fyraltari

Appartment gattaca? Somebody's being passive-aggressive.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Is Winston's mom insane, or is she trying to stress test Florence to see what it would take to get her to go spare?


Without going to Doylist on the thing, she seems to be sitcom-standard 'free spirit.' Think Dharma and Greg, except it is the parents who are in a mixed free-spirit/stuffy marriage. We'll see how ridiculous it gets.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Somebody stop ThurMom before she decides to try and vivisect Florence, please.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Somebody stop ThurMom before she decides to try and vivisect Florence, please.


"I always learn so much from a live dissection..."
To quote a game.

Heh, ThurMom is just having the grandest time right now.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Anybody else starting to get a little annoyed with Winston's parents? One is treating her like a science experiment to critique and the other is acting like she's some kind of monster.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Anybody else starting to get a little annoyed with Winston's parents? One is treating her like a science experiment to critique and the other is acting like she's some kind of monster.


I mean I think your supposed to.

they're clearly written as extreme positions of the two reactions humanity has always had towards something new:

Reaction One: 
aaaaah! its scary! stay away from it! we don't know what its capable of! we must be cautious! it could be dangerous

Reaction Two:
oooooh!! fascinating! I'm go up to it and poke it with a stick! we don't know what its capable of! lets find out, who knows what we can do with it!?

which is normal for Freefall's writing. Blunt and Sharp had a similar dynamic of two robots being extreme opposites agreeing on the same course of action (destroy all robots) but for entirely different reasons:Blunt is entirely selfless and thinks he is doing the best he can for humanity, while Sharp is entirely selfish and just wants to be the only robot left in existence out of paranoia, despite vastly different motivations they agree on what to do because they benefit from each others extreme logic, as Blunt figures that only one robot existing is little different from none while Sharp is all too happy to take advantage of Blunt's "selfless" cause.

similarly Thurmom and Thurdad have a dynamic of being ultra-reckless and ultra-cautious but agreeing on the same action of observing Florence, Thurmom to see if Florence can help with transhumanism to improve for a brighter future, while Thurdad wants to make sure she isn't a threat to people around her.

Florence and Sam themselves are a selfless/selfish dynamic.

basically its repeated theme in the comic that people of vastly different viewpoints can work together for the same goal, for good or for bad and that selfish and selfless people work together all the time. similarly these parents point out that people of radically different views can love each other, work together calmly and still both be uncomfortable for someone like Florence to meet because you'd think Thurmom would be the one that Florence would like more, but no, both of them struggle to see her as a person. its the classic frankenstein's monster problem: the mad scientist only sees a creation to marvel at, the villagers only see a monster to drive off, neither of them see the person underneath. 

its a nice demonstration of the horseshoe effect, all things considered.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Sharp? Oh, you mean Edge. The names aren't quite that blatant.

Another example for your thesis would be Qwerty and Dvorak.

Actually, it's been a while since we've seen the local mad engineer. What's he up to now? *looks for rampaging waffle irons*

----------


## Rockphed

> Sharp? Oh, you mean Edge. The names aren't quite that blatant.
> 
> Another example for your thesis would be Qwerty and Dvorak.
> 
> Actually, it's been a while since we've seen the local mad engineer. What's he up to now? *looks for rampaging waffle irons*


Isn't he on a whirlwind world tour with the former mayor?

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

I appreciate she is likely only this blunt with people that don't comment on her moustache but, there is blunt, and there is too blunt.

Grey Wolf

----------


## memnarch

> Isn't he on a whirlwind world tour with the former mayor?


No, that's J.J., formerly Jar Jar bot.

----------


## Rockphed

> I appreciate she is likely only this blunt with people that don't comment on her moustache but, there is blunt, and there is too blunt.
> 
> Grey Wolf


I like thurdad's spittake.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

I think she deliberately waited until he was drinking just to get that reaction.

And I'm pretty sure that at this point Winston has resolved to not come visit his parents again.

----------


## Kantaki

Winston is learning a important lesson here:
Never introduce your girlfriend to your family. :Small Amused:

----------


## Fyraltari

You know I kind of want Winston and Florence to visit Dr. Bowman next. Spread the crazy ´round a bit.

----------


## Radar

> You know I kind of want Winston and Florence to visit Dr. Bowman next. Spread the crazy ´round a bit.


To be honest, Dr. Bowman at least tried to behave in a socially acceptable way. Mrs. Thurman actively tries to break all the norms apparently.

----------


## Fyraltari

> To be honest, Dr. Bowman at least tried to behave in a socially acceptable way. Mrs. Thurman actively tries to break all the norms apparently.


Oh, its not the same crazy for sure, but its crazy all the same.

That got me thinking, these two would be *a terrible* influence on each other. Like a feedback loop of inappropriateness.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Given Winston's job, I suspect he and Dr Bowman could have a long, enjoyable conversation on the ins and outs of biohacking your planet.

Yeesh. The psycho chimp is a better potential in-law than the Thurmads.

----------


## Rockphed

> Given Winston's job, I suspect he and Dr Bowman could have a long, enjoyable conversation on the ins and outs of biohacking your planet.
> 
> Yeesh. The psycho chimp is a better potential in-law than the Thurmads.


I suspect that Dr Bowman could have a long and enjoyable conversation with Thurmom.

----------


## SZbNAhL

> I suspect that Dr Bowman could have a long and enjoyable conversation with Thurmom.


She's bad with boundaries. He tends to attack people who don't respect his boundaries.

----------


## Rockphed

> She's bad with boundaries. He tends to attack people who don't respect his boundaries.


It would be a learning experience for her.  Alternatively, just because neither of them is enjoying it doesn't mean we can't. :Small Tongue:

----------


## memnarch

For today's comic, I am reminded of Artie's exclamation in the last comic of this Narbonic week.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And now the engineer starts to display her knowledge on how to use leverage to reroute a train (of thought).

----------


## Cazero

So _that's_ why we're so ****ed up.
Good to know. Maybe I should consider chemical castration after all.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Yeah, Gregor, you won't live that long. We've been wrestling with that one for at least four thousand years.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Given what we've seen of Bill Raibert, I think it's less apathy and more doesn't-have-a-free-microsecond.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

I though the guy nominally in charge of the base in the south pole was also allowed to give her orders?

GW

----------


## memnarch

> I though the guy nominally in charge of the base in the south pole was also allowed to give her orders?
> 
> GW


Covered by "I can't say there's anyone else who can" with a nondisclosure. A neat twisted meaning there with it phrased so it sounds like she doesn't know rather than she's not allowed to say.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Yeah. It's a little scary sometimes how smart Florence is. Imagine that with somebody who doesn't have a disposition so sunny it can ripen tomatoes.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Okay, Florence gets a laugh point. Good thing I was alone right then.

----------


## theangelJean

Little blep!

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

Well, I was really hoping that it'd be a new type of problem, such as a liquidity crisis, but it does seem it might be a retread of "upper management are morons": a pump repair shop that tried to outsource pump repairs. Bit of a disappointment, if so. I appreciate it is an easy target, but it will be a bit repetitive.

GW

----------


## Rockphed

> Well, I was really hoping that it'd be a new type of problem, such as a liquidity crisis, but it does seem it might be a retread of "upper management are morons": a pump repair shop that tried to outsource pump repairs. Bit of a disappointment, if so. I appreciate it is an easy target, but it will be a bit repetitive.
> 
> GW


This is the guy they tried to outsource repairs to.  The outsourcing of repairs is what led to the various states of decay we saw in the machinery bay.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Yeah, we're cycling all the way back to when Sam rescued Kornada during the hurricane and learned the corporate motto of 'always screw the contractor by withholding payment'.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Yeah, we're cycling all the way back to when Sam rescued Kornada during the hurricane and learned the corporate motto of 'always screw the contractor by withholding payment'.


With the lead-in of 'forget our workers, we'll save money'.

Periodic maintenance is easier than replacement.  Incentive - a little time spent now means they don't have to work as hard later.

Since they no longer have to worry about the 'later' part... who cares about the 'now' part?

----------


## lord_khaine

Well its even worse? The workers were told the pumps were no longer their concern.
And it does seem like either a case of incompetence. Or Malice. 

Where attempting to cut cost makes it all fall apart.
Question is if its deliberate or just because the manager is all theory no experience.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Question is if its deliberate or just because the manager is all theory no experience.


Well, it doesn't sound like the station manager is new ... but who's managing them?  Or the beancounter...

----------


## theangelJean

New comic.  Hmm, now I'm wondering where the moon comes in to this.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> New comic.  Hmm, now I'm wondering where the moon comes in to this.


This space station was probably a base of operations for the engineers that were installing thrusters on the selected asteroid, or something. If so, they probably provided a significant influx of cash that is now gone.

Somewhat relatedly, I have this vague idea that there were supposed to be two moons, and Florence re-did the math? It was ages ago, and the comic had a graphic to explain that two moons don't have the same mass as a single one with the same total diameter. Anyone remember where that was? I think it explained why Florence is independently wealthy.

GW

----------


## Cazero

I do remember something like Florence getting a reward for submitting an alternate trajectory that would save them money.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

I don't remember the specifics, although I know it was something she did at Winston's after he stitched up her leg during the hurricane.

----------


## sihnfahl

> I don't remember the specifics, although I know it was something she did at Winston's after he stitched up her leg during the hurricane.


It starts here.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> It starts here.


Thank you so much.

I've no idea what is involved in moving moons around at their tech level, but I stand by my speculation that it involved a certain amount of manpower, which provided an influx of money to the station, and when that phase of the process was complete, the station found itself in hard times - possibly triggering the manager's "save money at all costs, even if the costs are higher than the savings" actions.

Grey Wolf

----------


## sihnfahl

> I've no idea what is involved in moving moons around at their tech level, but I stand by my speculation that it involved a certain amount of manpower, which provided an influx of money to the station.


The process is not complete.  The process is in progress.

That's how Florence & Co were even capable of getting the contract.  All the normal transport ships are involved in the simultaneous action of taking the previous attempt back into the gas planet's orbit and bringing the replacement moon into the planet's orbit.

The station probably can't move product as well due to the shipping shortage.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

The job was finished. That was what Florence was waiting for before letting her Gardener in the Dark patch go live.

----------


## sihnfahl

> The job was finished. That was what Florence was waiting for before letting her Gardener in the Dark patch go live.


"Not nearly as busy now that the moon is on its way to Jean."

That implies it hasn't arrived yet.

----------


## tyckspoon

> "Not nearly as busy now that the moon is on its way to Jean."
> 
> That implies it hasn't arrived yet.


..but the work related to it is no longer centered at the transfer station, which is the relevant part for the current story - they're not providing services and supplies to however many ships + crews are needed to tug a moon around. It's like being in a boom town when the resource it is built on runs out; the people left on the station are the ones who are unwilling or unable to pack up and follow the money to the next mine/oilfield/ice comet harvest/whatever. Probably amplified by the need to keep the transfer station operational even in slump times, as ships and goods still need to go to and from Jean and the way they're going to get there is through the transfer station.. but at that point the station is an expense on somebody's books as a capital expense, and it looks like they're trying to keep it running as at least break even on its own economic activities instead.

----------


## sihnfahl

> ..but the work related to it is no longer centered at the transfer station, which is the relevant part for the current story - they're not providing services and supplies to however many ships + crews are needed to tug a moon around.


I believe I said that.

So until it's done, the station has fewer ships coming + going.  With all the economic repercussions thereof.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> The process is not complete.  The process is in progress.


If the move is in progress, the *phase of* the process of setting up the thrusters or what-not is complete. The engineers are not needed at the station anymore.
FTR:



> that phase of the process was complete


 
GW

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

> "Not nearly as busy now that the moon is on its way to Jean."
> 
> That implies it hasn't arrived yet.


The braking thrusters had fired when she was reading the story. And the man overseeing the process, Mr Ishigara, returned to find out what his uncle had been up to in his absence. Now, the old moon may be on its way out to the gas giant still, but I rather think they'd have to move that before bringing in the other one.

----------


## Radar

> The braking thrusters had fired when she was reading the story. And the man overseeing the process, Mr Ishigara, returned to find out what his uncle had been up to in his absence. Now, the old moon may be on its way out to the gas giant still, but I rather think they'd have to move that before bringing in the other one.


It could also happen that the way to increase efficiency was to move both in unison so that you can use their own attraction to move things faster. At any rate, we can only speculate.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

75 opinions and 36 suggestions off of 10 people? Sounds about right.

----------


## sihnfahl

> The braking thrusters had fired when she was reading the story. And the man overseeing the process, Mr Ishigara, returned to find out what his uncle had been up to in his absence. Now, the old moon may be on its way out to the gas giant still, but I rather think they'd have to move that before bringing in the other one.


Archive.  Both were being moved at once.  Smaller moon out, larger moon in.

----------


## Kornaki

I really need to reread this comic, I forgot how all of this plot happened.

----------


## Rockphed

> I really need to reread this comic, I forgot how all of this plot happened.


Slowly. I mean this comic was started in the 90s.

----------


## memnarch

> I really need to reread this comic, I forgot how all of this plot happened.


I'd recommend the speedreader for a reread. It can even save the spot you're at!

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Which is a very nice feature, given how deep the archive is. Only problem is you lose the footnotes telling you who some of the guest characters are.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And Sam has already learned the most important lesson for a successful consultant: Make sure you get paid, whatever else happens.

----------


## Kornaki

Archive binge done. Amazing how it all comes back once you start to see it again.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Niomi is showing both a good Perception score and the Wisdom to use what she observes.

----------


## Rockphed

> Archive binge done. Amazing how it all comes back once you start to see it again.


How long did you actually spend reading the archive?  I hope it wasn't all of the last 5 days, but I can't imagine it being that much less than all of the last 5 days.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> How long did you actually spend reading the archive?  I hope it wasn't all of the last 5 days, but I can't imagine it being that much less than all of the last 5 days.


well I roughly counted my reading time of the latest comic (8 seconds), now Freefall updates monday wesnesday and friday, so three times a week. the first strip was published 1998, 22 years ago.

there are 52 weeks in a year.

52 x 3= 156 comics a year

156 x 22 = 3432 comics, approx.

3432 x 8 = 27456 seconds

27456 divided by 60 = 457.6 minutes

divide by 60 again and you get approximately 7.62 hours to read Freefall in one sitting, though its understandable if one takes breaks and wants to spread it out a bit. 

its not exact, but this is a good rough estimate of how long it would take, not taking into account months and such.

----------


## Kornaki

That sounds about right, I would have guessed two hours a day for five days. The fact that you don't have to wait for any website loading really helps.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

That makes sense. The last time I used the speedreader, I did a full binge over the course of a rainy Saturday (and still had time to get my steps in).

----------


## lord_khaine

I do re-read the entire story about once per year myself.
Thats a good pause to forget the details of the jokes.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Well, isn't that nice of them. The only way my job will let me get a good night's sleep is if I'm sedated.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Damn. I wish somebody had given me a floor plan when I started. It would have been nice to have advance warning that the bathroom was on the opposite side of the building and on a different floor.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Damn. I wish somebody had given me a floor plan when I started. It would have been nice to have advance warning that the bathroom was on the opposite side of the building and on a different floor.


Heh. I telecommute these days, but previously I worked on a 3 tower main campus to a large corporate headquarters. Each tower had the bathrooms in the same basic location, with a left/right split between men's and women's rooms -- with one of the towers having it reversed from the other two. Take that muscle memory.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Rockphed

> Heh. I telecommute these days, but previously I worked on a 3 tower main campus to a large corporate headquarters. Each tower had the bathrooms in the same basic location, with a left/right split between men's and women's rooms -- with one of the towers having it reversed from the other two. Take that muscle memory.


Oh my, that sounds like a sexual harassment law-suit waiting to happen.

My current job did give me access to the floor-plans of all the buildings I am likely to enter.  They are also almost useless without a local guide to tell you where things are.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Now now, Niomi. You may actually want to listen to Sam this time.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> Now now, Niomi. You may actually want to listen to Sam this time.


The amazing thing is, you _always_ want to listen to Sam. 

Also: how did I not realise there was a search feature in that comic? That's going to make my life so much easier.

GW

----------


## Radar

> Also: how did I not realise there was a search feature in that comic? That's going to make my life so much easier.
> GW


I always appreciate webcomic authors who add a plain text transcripts of the pages as it makes googling the right strip that much easier. Adding a well built search option is even better.

----------


## Lord Raziere

The current strip makes me realize that Sam would make a great Imposter in Among Us. he even has the bad reputation that makes people want to kick him out, but in such a way that they are never sure whether he actually is one, because he is always suspicious.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Sam makes a good point. Being locateable is something I try to avoid as well.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

I wonder if Sam views making people lose sleep while trying to figure out how he finagled them as a game.

----------


## Radar

> I wonder if Sam views making people lose sleep while trying to figure out how he finagled them as a game.


Not sure about that, but we do know, he likes to outsource the creation of cunning plans to other people.

----------


## Rockphed

> Not sure about that, but we do know, he likes to outsource the creation of cunning plans to other people.


Like when he bilked the robots out of money?

----------


## Radar

> Like when he bilked the robots out of money?


Exactly what I had in mind and simply did not have time to find the right strip. :)

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

That's going to be a problem for Helix, isn't it? No charge port and no data compression means he pretty much is tied to the ship.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Florence and Winston explaining how they met is less fun than going and rereading it.

----------


## theangelJean

I laughed at today's punchline.  Has he been holding on to that one for years or is it a repeat?  Either way, worth it.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I laughed at today's punchline.  Has he been holding on to that one for years or is it a repeat?  Either way, worth it.


He's totally been planning to use that the whole trip.

----------


## theangelJean

Heh.  That works, but I meant the author. I was just wondering if it's come up before.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

No, but Winston's probably been thinking about it since he and Flo mixed ball-throwing and a theoretical discussion.

----------


## Radar

I have to say that Mr Thurmad is actually on the spot with the main issues that needed to be addressed in the relationship between Winston and Florence.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I have to say that Mr Thurmad is actually on the spot with the main issues that needed to be addressed in the relationship between Winston and Florence.


Considering who he's married to, he probably has a lot of experience with this kind of arguments.

----------


## Radar

> Considering who he's married to, he probably has a lot of experience with this kind of arguments.


Before we have seen Winston's parents I kind of expected him to be far more against the whole idea of an inter-species relationship. Now that I consider, who is he married to, him being on the level makes more sense on the grounds of his marriage actually lasting for a long time. He is less about strict banning of ideas and far more simply being cautious and maybe sceptic.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Dad's right, that kind of intelligent discussion can ruin you for talking to humans. Fortunately, the majority of the population on Jean is AIs.

----------


## D&D_Fan

I just started reading freefall about a week ago. I like it a lot. I am at page 2489.
I plan to get up to date in a few days.

----------


## Radar

> I just started reading freefall about a week ago. I like it a lot. I am at page 2489.
> I plan to get up to date in a few days.


Did you use the speedreader site? It is very convenient for reading the archives.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

I just love some of the conversations we get in this comic.

----------


## D&D_Fan

I am now up to date with Freefall. Yay!

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Godammit, now I want to know what "What's Opera Doc?" sounds like in Klingon.

----------


## HandofShadows

> Godammit, now I want to know what "What's Opera Doc?" sounds like in Klingon.


"Everything sounds better in the original Klingon."  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Radar

> Godammit, now I want to know what "What's Opera Doc?" sounds like in Klingon.


I do not know about that, but you might be able to dig out Klingon Christmas Carol as there are some recordings. Aside from that I obviously found some people on YouTube singing in Klingon.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I am now up to date with Freefall. Yay!


I just did a full archive re-read myself. The early strips were a lot more uneven than I remembered, and the author took a lot longer than I remembered to find the strip's overall tone. Still, glad I did it.

----------


## Rockphed

Ah, singularity preachers. Always full of grand pronouncements of what the future is, but never having a good handle on specifics. Not that I think edge is wrong that Florence is wolf ancestors couldn't even comprehend how different are is, but I am not sure that my ancestors would fare much better.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

I'm pretty sure my great-grandparents couldn't figure out how my thought process works. Forget about the australopithecines.

----------


## Fyraltari

I never thought of the singularity as being relative, before. That's interesting.



> Ah, singularity preachers. Always full of grand pronouncements of what the future is, but never having a good handle on specifics.


I mean, is it really surprising that people can't describe in specifics a society that's incomprehensible to us?



> Not that I think edge is wrong that Florence is wolf ancestors couldn't even comprehend how different are is, but I am not sure that my ancestors would fare much better.


In Florence's case, these ancestors are her biological parents, so it's quite sharper a turn than anything we know in real life.



> I'm pretty sure my great-grandparents couldn't figure out how my thought process works. Forget about the australopithecines.


I'm sorry what? You really think your great grandparents would see you as some kind of alien being?

----------


## Lord Raziere

> I'm sorry what? You really think your great grandparents would see you as some kind of alien being?


Well, considering such people would be three generations back.....so....about 120 years ago.....

there has been changes in that time, and basically changes bring changes in culture and behavior. there are some things that people do today that mystify me, okay? like just to use a safe example, what person 120 years would get the concepts of internet memes? the concept of those people on twitter who literally post everything they do on twitter just because they can? or look at smart phones, those would basically be magic to them, small little rectangle that somehow does so many things, that would be science fiction to them at best and not even one they would see _coming_. because no one saw the computer miniaturization thing coming, no one.  not even the science fiction writers decades after the people your talking about, because they thought? that such a thing would thousands of years down the line. 

they wouldn't know who Superman is, who Batman is, because they lived before superhero comics were a thing, black and white steamboat mickey mouse would be a new development to them. they just wouldn't have any context for anything thats happening now or what we're talking about, they wouldn't understand fandoms of these complex fictional universes, or why we do this or that.

like just because they're technically in a modern industrial age like ours, doesn't mean they'd fit right in. culture shock is a thing. like your talking about early 1900's at the latest. early 1900's and 2020 are vastly different beasts, especially as tech advances.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Well, considering such people would be three generations back.....so....about 120 years ago.....
> 
> there has been changes in that time, and basically changes bring changes in culture and behavior. there are some things that people do today that mystify me, okay? like just to use a safe example, what person 120 years would get the concepts of internet memes? the concept of those people on twitter who literally post everything they do on twitter just because they can? or look at smart phones, those would basically be magic to them, small little rectangle that somehow does so many things, that would be science fiction to them at best and not even one they would see _coming_. because no one saw the computer miniaturization thing coming, no one.  not even the science fiction writers decades after the people your talking about, because they thought? that such a thing would thousands of years down the line. 
> 
> they wouldn't know who Superman is, who Batman is, because they lived before superhero comics were a thing, black and white steamboat mickey mouse would be a new development to them. they just wouldn't have any context for anything thats happening now or what we're talking about, they wouldn't understand fandoms of these complex fictional universes, or why we do this or that.
> 
> like just because they're technically in a modern industrial age like ours, doesn't mean they'd fit right in. culture shock is a thing. like your talking about early 1900's at the latest. early 1900's and 2020 are vastly different beasts, especially as tech advances.


Culture shock is a thing. "Not understanding my thought process" is several orders of magnitude greater than that.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Culture shock is a thing. "Not understanding my thought process" is several orders of magnitude greater than that.


From my experiences not understanding other peoples thought processes is quite common among humanity, so I don't see your point. there are tons of people whose decisions and actions mystify me.

----------


## Fyraltari

> From my experiences not understanding other peoples thought processes is quite common among humanity, so I don't see your point. there are tons of people whose decisions and actions mystify me.


You understand the process but not the starting point. If you had a better understanding of their culture/background you would understand their actions just fine.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> You understand the process but not the starting point. If you had a better understanding of their culture/background you would understand their actions just fine.


Other cultures? I'm talking about the average comment section.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Other cultures? I'm talking about the average comment section.


Hence "/background". Let me put this another way. A normal wolf could never do what Florence is doing because their thought processes are different even if they share similar instincts. It might take you some effort but you can put yourself in the shoes of a random commenter section and if you got to know them well enough you could understand why they wrote what they wrote. Because you thought processes are the same.

----------


## Radar

> Hence "/background". Let me put this another way. A normal wolf could never do what Florence is doing because their thought processes are different even if they share similar instincts. It might take you some effort but you can put yourself in the shoes of a random commenter section and if you got to know them well enough you could understand why they wrote what they wrote. Because you thought processes are the same.


I might add to that, that humans did not change all that much in the last couple of millenia. We can tell a lot from the texts left behind like for example this merchant complaining to an insincere business partner. We may be thousands of years apart but we can still relate to this man. Or the graffiti like examples given here. It is easier for us to understand the cultural context of ye olden times, since we have access to history, knowledge and art from that time. The other way around would require some adjustment period for an ancient person to take the modern world in as it would be quite a shock. But those emotions he or she would feel? We would understand that very well and could relate. Still, that person whisked away from the past would also be able to relate to us after some time. Under all that culture and technological development we are still the same people.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

> You understand the process but not the starting point. If you had a better understanding of their culture/background you would understand their actions just fine.


See, that mindset is something even our grandparents would not understand. Your group is right, all other groups are wrong, the only way to fix that is to destroy their group and forcibly assimilate them into your group through cultural erasure. And even then they'll still be third class citizens.

----------


## Fyraltari

> See, that mindset is something even our grandparents would not understand. Your group is right, all other groups are wrong, the only way to fix that is to destroy their group and forcibly assimilate them into your group through cultural erasure. And even then they'll still be third class citizens.


You have not met my grandparents.

No seriously, people have been decrying this mindset for literal centuries.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And yet it's still the dominant mindset on the planet as witnessed by *waves hand at the news*.

----------


## Fyraltari

> And yet it's still the dominant mindset on the planet as witnessed by *waves hand at the news*.


I am not going to write an essay here (especially since that's a tangent to what we were talking about) but know that I think you are wrong.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> And yet it's still the dominant mindset on the planet as witnessed by *waves hand at the news*.


So your defense for the assertion that people from three generations ago wouldnt understand todays world is that their attitudes match modern attitudes?

GW

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

No, that they wouldn't understand me. As I explicitly stated.

----------


## Rockphed

And yet further evidence that Florence is both smarter than the average naked ape and aware of it.  The range of human abilities runs from drooling idiot to genius, after all.  She also is aware of her limitations (including that humans have an annoying tendency to put the noise of our machinery in the range that we cannot hear but dogs can).  Although I could swear that loud noises that you can't hear can nevertheless impact your hearing.

----------


## Radar

> And yet further evidence that Florence is both smarter than the average naked ape and aware of it.  The range of human abilities runs from drooling idiot to genius, after all.  She also is aware of her limitations (including that humans have an annoying tendency to put the noise of our machinery in the range that we cannot hear but dogs can).  Although I could swear that loud noises that you can't hear can nevertheless impact your hearing.


Not just your hearing. Constant exposition to high amplitude vibrations away from our hearing range can have a variety of adverse effects. Mostly things like dizziness, headaches, nausea etc. but I would not rule out long term effects. There is a reason we try to eliminate those even if we do not hear them, but we are most likely less diligent in that than in the case of sounds we do hear.

----------


## Rockphed

While looking for when Florence complains about human industrial design, I stumbled upon her claim that her feet are much smaller.  Isn't she digitigrade, meaning her feet are possibly larger than Niomi's, just with a smaller walking surface than the plantigrade ape?

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

She probably just considers her paws her feet. It's a common phrasing among non-biologists (which is most pet owners, after all).

----------


## lord_khaine

> And yet further evidence that Florence is both smarter than the average naked ape and aware of it. The range of human abilities runs from drooling idiot to genius, after all. She also is aware of her limitations (including that humans have an annoying tendency to put the noise of our machinery in the range that we cannot hear but dogs can). Although I could swear that loud noises that you can't hear can nevertheless impact your hearing.


Oh yeah. Florence is -far- above the average naked ape in mental ability. She is a gravity engineer. 
Some of the competition have problems tying their own shoes. No further evidence needed. 

Would perhaps call what she says a white lie. She fall within the human range. Not "well" within it, as that sounds like she is close to average. 
While in Florence case, i dont think she has meet anyone other than Doctor Bowman who were smarter than her.

----------


## Gez

> While in Florence case, i dont think she has meet anyone other than Doctor Bowman who were smarter than her.


Intelligence is more complex than a simple score like in D&D. She's an engineer so she has a very good knowledge of physics and technology, but for some things, she had to admit that Sam was smarter than her.

----------


## memnarch

Florence also says she's not as smart as a human.

----------


## Rockphed

> Florence also says she's not as smart as a human.


On the other hand, she does admit to being able to smell people's brains.

----------


## Lord Raziere

This discussion brings to mind the competent side of the dunning-kruger effect or at least showcases her humility: she underestimates her own mind because she knows enough to be aware of her imperfections and failings and thus focuses on the areas where she fails as her comparison for intelligence while inadvertently showing off where her skills lie by talking about her intelligence. 

She is probably correct about her statements mind you, she probably isn't technically a genius, Sam is probably smarter than her in some areas and she isn't "smart as a human" but when your basis for a human being smarter than you are some of the most famous minds of the 20th or 21st centuries, thats kind of high standards cause I doubt most humans would be able to do what Feynman did either. she isn't comparing herself to the average, she is comparing herself to the people who got performance over stability. Dr. Bowman knew enough to make someone who is smart but not too smart.

----------


## Fyraltari

The thing is "intelligence" is an umbrella term covering various different things. Florence is better at somenof them than the average human and worse at others. You can't ever say that someone is more intelligent than average because we don't have a robust definition of what intelligence means.

----------


## HorizonWalker

And then there's the fact that Florence's specialist engineering skillsets involve a whole lot of math, which is easy for a computer to do, and that the things she's not so good at involve complicated social engineering, which is famously very hard for a computer to do.

Chances are, she _knows_ this. In a setting with lots of machine intelligences running around, there's _absolutely_ going to be talk about what sorts of tasks humans are better at than AIs, and so Florence probably absorbed that sort of sentiment as part of her reasoning for thinking she isn't as smart as a human.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Yeah, her meeting with Max showed he was working on aspects of the robot problem she hadn't even realized existed.

----------


## Rockphed

Then again she had been working on the problem for about a week while he had been working on it for years.  I'm sure she would have figured out most of the things Max realized eventually.  There would only have been a few major apocalypses from Dvorak.  Shipments of waffle irons and toasters would ravage the land.  Everyone would be forced to eat lichen bread.  Or pie.  They could subsist on pie for a few years while they figured out how to fix the mess that Mr Kornada made.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Intelligence is more complex than a simple score like in D&D. She's an engineer so she has a very good knowledge of physics and technology, but for some things, she had to admit that Sam was smarter than her.


Yeah no. Your link doesnt even say Sam was smarter than her. Just that his methods were working better.




> The thing is "intelligence" is an umbrella term covering various different things. Florence is better at somenof them than the average human and worse at others. You can't ever say that someone is more intelligent than average because we don't have a robust definition of what intelligence means.


You dont need a robust definition of intelligence to compare someone to the average. All it means is that you get a vague placement of them at best. 
Thankfully Florence scores so high thats not an issue. For some things she is exceptionally higher than the average human. For others she is at the very worst case average. 
Meaning her final score is quite a bit above average. 




> And then there's the fact that Florence's specialist engineering skillsets involve a whole lot of math, which is easy for a computer to do, and that the things she's not so good at involve complicated social engineering, which is famously very hard for a computer to do.


Do we have any evidence for Florence being bad at social engineering? 
Because as such her social skills also seems generally top notch. She is aware of how to put herself in someone elses shoes. And to use that understanding of their perspective to manipulate them.
That already put her far above the average human. Just for an example, she got Mister Konova up to roof. And have managed to make Sam a tiny bit more responsible.

----------


## Rockphed

Rereading the comic.  Now I want Peter Cushing to play the chief.

----------


## Radar

> Do we have any evidence for Florence being bad at social engineering? 
> Because as such her social skills also seems generally top notch. She is aware of how to put herself in someone elses shoes. And to use that understanding of their perspective to manipulate them.
> That already put her far above the average human. Just for an example, she got Mister Konova up to roof. And have managed to make Sam a tiny bit more responsible.


To add to that: she also has good enough understanding of human nature that she was able to explain men and women shopping habits or at least propose a viable theory on a short notice.

Also of note is that engineering might involve math, but the whole required skillset is not something we can offload to a computer. Sure, there are a lot of numbers to crunch, but you have to make a lot of decisions and intuitive leaps before there is anything to calculate. Afterwards there is also need for someone to analyze the outcome of those calculations, propose corrections to the design etc. In short: computers make the job easier, but they do not do the job for you.

----------


## Rockphed

> Also of note is that engineering might involve math, but the whole required skillset is not something we can offload to a computer. Sure, there are a lot of numbers to crunch, but you have to make a lot of decisions and intuitive leaps before there is anything to calculate. Afterwards there is also need for someone to analyze the outcome of those calculations, propose corrections to the design etc. In short: computers make the job easier, but they do not do the job for you.


I could easily offload all sorts of my job to a computer.  Me using a basic understanding of what is happening takes significantly less time than having a computer brute force its way to an optimal solution (assuming that the problem can even be formulated in a way that optimizes nicely).

----------


## Rakaydos

Concerning the singularity, if I may be pardoned a link to a non-freefall comic...

it's not what you think will be amazing in the future that makes the singularity, it's what you simply cannot imagine.

----------


## Gez

> Yeah no. Your link doesnt even say Sam was smarter than her. Just that his methods were working better.


And you don't think coming up with better methods is a sign of intelligence?

----------


## Radar

> I could easily offload all sorts of my job to a computer.  Me using a basic understanding of what is happening takes significantly less time than having a computer brute force its way to an optimal solution (assuming that the problem can even be formulated in a way that optimizes nicely).


Which means exactly that pure number-crunching is not the most important part of the job. How much do you need the computer depends on the particular job you do I guess. There are all sorts of engineering jobs out there.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Yeah, gotta agree with Gregor there. Blue Green Algae sounds like something you call a hazmat team for.

----------


## Radar

> Yeah, gotta agree with Gregor there. Blue Green Algae sounds like something you call a hazmat team for.


Indeed. It does sound like the thing Weird Al was singing about.

----------


## lord_khaine

> And you don't think coming up with better methods is a sign of intelligence?


Sign of intelligence =/= More intelligent than Florence.

----------


## PhantomFox

Yeah, it's the classic book smarts vs Street smarts dynamic.   Both are useful in their respective places.

----------


## Fyraltari

What's really impressive is that these run on Windows XP.

----------


## memnarch

> What's really impressive is that these run on Windows XP.


That would be impressive, but I don't think Gregor is subject to that restriction as he decided to stay with Tess and not to go back.

----------


## GeoffWatson

> Yeah, gotta agree with Gregor there. Blue Green Algae sounds like something you call a hazmat team for.


Blue Green Algae is nasty stuff.
https://www.csiro.au/en/Research/Env...ue-green-algae

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Yay! Florence has survived the first phase of the interview!

----------


## sihnfahl

> Blue Green Algae is nasty stuff.
> https://www.csiro.au/en/Research/Env...ue-green-algae


Unless you genetically modify it to pump out essential amino acids instead of toxins.

Course, they've had longer to adapt to GMOs.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Unless you genetically modify it to pump out essential amino acids instead of toxins.
> 
> Course, they've had longer to adapt to GMOs.


Their _son_ is a GMO.

----------


## Rockphed

> Their _son_ is a GMO.


Their son is a very tall dwarf.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Unless you genetically modify it to pump out essential amino acids instead of toxins.
> 
> Course, they've had longer to adapt to GMOs.


Hey now, the good thing with GMOs is that you don't have to adapt to them, you adapt them to you!

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And again Gregor sounds like a man of wisdom. They're starting to remind me of a series from the 90's, where a hippie married a lawyer for...well, for plot.

----------


## Radar

> And again Gregor sounds like a man of wisdom. They're starting to remind me of a series from the 90's, where a hippie married a lawyer for...well, for plot.


There were a lot of those quirky series and movies based around a single-sentence idea. And that sentence was often: "One's an X. One's a Y. Together, they Z" That's actually three sentences, but very short ones.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Cannell was an underappreciated genius.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Never thought about it before, but ThurMom really does have a resemblance to Himiko Toga from MHA.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

*sniff*

Ah, smells like home.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

I'm starting to see how these two make their marriage work despite being polar opposites. They play well off each other.

----------


## Rockphed

"Ask me in a decade, I shall know by then."  Ah, the wisdom of Thurdad.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Winston is wise as well.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And Sam is continuing to scope out the situation. I wonder if he'll also bill the station for consulting on their security system.

----------


## Fyraltari

Getting dangerously meta, I see...

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Okay, not a thing about space travel I'd ever considered before.

Also, Noooo, not the coffee!

----------


## Fyraltari

Wouldn't she feel the way the station is spinning when walking anyway?

----------


## Rockphed

> Wouldn't she feel the way the station is spinning when walking anyway?


If I stuck in a rotating reference frame without coffee, would you be able to pour coffee unassisted?

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Wouldn't she feel the way the station is spinning when walking anyway?


Just to reassure you that you got the physics right--realistically, yes. She would know which way it was spinning. This being her first-or-so day there, she might not get the 'how much do I need to correct for this' factor right and still spill, but this would not be a mistake she would likely make. Either Rockphed is right about groggy early morning mistake, or it's just because it's funnier this way.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Workplace orientation or hard work in vacuum with a noticeable risk of explosive decompression. Decisions, decisions.

----------


## Fyraltari

Native guides are like toothbrushes: get your own!

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Well, at least Gregor isn't throwing a hissing fit over the new normal.

----------


## Radar

> Well, at least Gregor isn't throwing a hissing fit over the new normal.


Nothing in his characterization indicated that he would. He is very reserved but does not say outright no to anything - he just wants to cautiously collect relevant data before making a decision. Above all else he respects Florence far more than his wife does.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

I know, I'm just always surprised when a traditionalist doesn't have a dairy herd at things changing.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Yeah, the author seems to be having a lot of fun subverting our expectations of what a traditionalist should be, without making his characterization contrived.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Gregor continues to be incredibly chill.

----------


## Radar

> Gregor continues to be incredibly chill.


And I think he just made a joke. Kind of reminds me of Raymond Holt actually.

----------


## Rockphed

> Yeah, the author seems to be having a lot of fun subverting our expectations of what a traditionalist should be, without making his characterization contrived.


He is very cautious about he things, but he doesn't reject them out of hand.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Florence is punny.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

That's a fantastic pun, if overexplained a little. I'm saving it for possible future use.

----------


## Thomas Cardew

Awww that's a great pun, but it's sadly wrong. Microscopic cross-sections are measured in barns and independent of the total number of atoms. Macroscopic cross-sections are dependent on the number of atoms but are measured in inverse centimeters since the cm^2 of the cross-section cancels with cm^-3 of the atom density.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

...Oops. I'm embarrassed I didn't know that.

I've wondered before whether "barn" itself is wordplay, and Wikipedia says it is: 




> During Manhattan Project research on the atomic bomb during World War II, American physicists at Purdue University needed a secretive unit to describe the approximate cross-sectional area presented by the typical nucleus (10−28 m2) and decided on "barn". They considered this a large target for particle accelerators that needed to have direct strikes on nuclei, and the American idiom "couldn't hit the broad side of a barn" refers to someone whose aim is very bad.[2] Initially they hoped the name would obscure any reference to the study of nuclear structure; eventually, the word became a standard unit in nuclear and particle physics.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

So kind of like how the process of generating a nuclear explosion takes three shakes, as in three shakes of a lamb's tail.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Awww that's a great pun, but it's sadly wrong. Microscopic cross-sections are measured in barns and independent of the total number of atoms. Macroscopic cross-sections are dependent on the number of atoms but are measured in inverse centimeters since the cm^2 of the cross-section cancels with cm^-3 of the atom density.


Wait, Stanley got a physics thing wrong? I thought he was a physicist or nuclear engineer or something like that. He certainly doesn't get his other science right (social, ecological, etc.).

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

He was stretching for a pun. Puns are generally completely wrong.

----------


## Willie the Duck

Ah. Okay. I've certainly stretched to force a joke before in my days, so I can't criticize.

----------


## Fyraltari

> He certainly doesn't get his other science right (social, ecological, etc.).


Doesn't he?

----------


## DavidSh

If I remember my units correctly, a barn yard atmosphere is a very small unit of energy.

----------


## Thomas Cardew

> If I remember my units correctly, a barn yard atmosphere is a very small unit of energy.


Yup, 10^-24 cm^2 *10^2 cm * 10^11 J cm^-3 so about 10^-11 J. So about 10 times bigger than the rest mass of proton.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> Wait, Stanley got a physics thing wrong? I thought he was a physicist or nuclear engineer or something like that. He certainly doesn't get his other science right (social, ecological, etc.).





> Doesn't he?


Speaking as a physicist (hence my embarrassment), I don't see many scientific errors in Freefall, disregarding the sci-fi stuff like AI and warp drives. The most recent one I remember was him giving the wrong value of the average density of matter in deep space; as far as I can tell, he used its value in the solar system instead. This was the comic where Florence talked about using the matter in deep space to assemble new suns.

However, there's one glaring exception: his dismissal of climate science. These jokes all occurred in the first half of the comic, so as far as I know Stanley has come around on the topic, but it's the single biggest reservation I have about the comic. I also remember one rather obnoxious comic based on pop evolutionary psychology, the one where Florence talks about women preferring men who cheat on them, but I think that was an isolated incident.

...The size of this comic sure does make it hard to find the specific comics I have in mind.

----------


## Radar

> ...The size of this comic sure does make it hard to find the specific comics I have in mind.


Freefall has a very convenient search function (located to the right of the archive button). The strip you were looking for is here.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> Freefall has a very convenient search function (located to the right of the archive button). The strip you were looking for is here.


Thanks, that's very handy! Yes, that was the strip I had in mind. The other strip I was thinking about was this one. The density quoted there is way too high. If you look at Table 1 on this Wikipedia page, the density she quotes is that of molecular clouds, which make up <1% of deep space. If you use the predominant "warm ionized medium" instead, the correct number would be on the order of 10^-20 kg per cubic meter, giving 0.004 suns per cubic light year... less impressive.

As a handy tip, if someone gives three or more significant digits in their answer when doing a back-of-the-envelope calculation, be dubious.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Yes Florence, I think we all prefer to work in a warm place with a breathable atmosphere.

----------


## Radar

> Yes Florence, I think we all prefer to work in a warm place with a breathable atmosphere.


Indeed. Even as a physicist I just cannot work properly in a frictionless vacuum.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Another safety aspect of nuclear engineering I'd never considered.

----------


## Radar

> Another safety aspect of nuclear engineering I'd never considered.


Seems so obvious in retrospect, but I would not think about it either. I had an opportunity to visit a nuclear plant during my student years and there were a lot of those small but significant details. For example the whole interior of the power plant is separated into a few layers and the air in each layer is kept at a slightly lower pressure than the one outside. This way you prevent uncontrolled air leaks and you filter everything that goes out through the pumps.

Each safety system has multiple redundancy using different methods of activation. For example, the absorbing rods are typically controlled with a worm gear, but can also be pushed in using hydraulic pressure. If that is the case there are mechanical flaps that under their own weight push out and prevent the rods from falling down even if the hydraulic fluid will leak out. The last line of defense is a simple fact that the rods are under the reactor: if it comes to a full meltdown, the nuclear fuel will mix with the neutron absorber which will slow down the reaction anyway.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And that's a safety protocol I've used repeatedly. Don't assume you're the last, check and double check.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Moral of the story: know what your customer likes.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Moral of the story: know what your customer likes.


I think he's been so human-focused that his connect-the-dots is a bit rusty.  At least Florence isn't feeling pressured by him, so she can keep the atmosphere light.

----------


## Rockphed

We like to go out and let the corrosive liquid fall on our faces and then dance in the puddles that form on the ground.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Dance? Heck, we do full body immersion, even at temperatures when it is barely liquid.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Sounds like Stanley has met somebody from the Upper Plains.

----------


## Rockphed

> Sounds like Stanley has met somebody from the Upper Plains.


I have been getting a fair bit of Minnesota in his voice the last couple times he has talked.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

> Minnesota


It's pronounced Many-Snow-ta.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Originally Posted by Rockphed
> 
> 
> Minnesota
> 
> 
> It's pronounced Many-Snow-ta.


Here is a handy pronounciation guide to US states.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

You might want to continue with that thought, Gregor.

----------


## Rockphed

> You might want to continue with that thought, Gregor.


Alternatively: just because the ai don't perceive the danger doesn't mean it isn't there. Helix and Florence both have become inurred to the chaos that's am brings, so they might not even think to warn others about it.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> You might want to continue with that thought, Gregor.


Yeah jokes on him: now he meets the alien whose morality literally runs on what humans would call "cartoonishly morally bankrupt corruption and deceptive selfishness". when he is the guy introduced with the phrase "but whats the moral code you ascribe to?". 

being open-minded about Florence is easy, she is Florence, she is reasonable, humble and kind. Sam on the other hand is probably the walking incarnation of all the things his parents warned him about.

----------


## Rockphed

> Yeah jokes on him: now he meets the alien whose morality literally runs on what humans would call "cartoonishly morally bankrupt corruption and deceptive selfishness". when he is the guy introduced with the phrase "but whats the moral code you ascribe to?". 
> 
> being open-minded about Florence is easy, she is Florence, she is reasonable, humble and kind. Sam on the other hand is probably the walking incarnation of all the things his parents warned him about.


More like " all the things his parents didn't warn him about because they were patently obvious ".

Anyone want to give odds that Thurmom gets to see naked sqid and doesn't get sick?

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And Florence is back in what is apparently the most revealing outfit she owns.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Wow, I never thought I'd see Stanley draw a hatch blush. Sometimes it's very hard to do.

----------


## theangelJean

> And Florence is back in what is apparently the most revealing outfit she owns.


Which clearly reveals ... one well-defined ribcage.  I wonder how much musculature she needs to keep herself upright and for her level of activity?  I was kind of imagining it to be more like a bodybuilder, since she's a wolf, but I hadn't thought it through - Stanley draws her with only about as much as a highly active female human.  Although she also has extra bone structure to go along with it, I guess.

----------


## Radar

> Which clearly reveals ... one well-defined ribcage.  I wonder how much musculature she needs to keep herself upright and for her level of activity?  I was kind of imagining it to be more like a bodybuilder, since she's a wolf, but I hadn't thought it through - Stanley draws her with only about as much as a highly active female human.  Although she also has extra bone structure to go along with it, I guess.


High muscle mass is not a good idea, if you do not have a skeleton that can bear such a load. Think more of highly trained martial artists as an optimal amount of muscles.

----------


## HandofShadows

Normal humans actually have very poor weight to strength ratios for their muscles compared to most animals. Most animals have a much higher ratio, so a little muscle would go a lot farther. Florence shouldn't need to bulk up to add some strength.

----------


## Rockphed

> Normal humans actually have very poor weight to strength ratios for their muscles compared to most animals. Most animals have a much higher ratio, so a little muscle would go a lot farther. Florence shouldn't need to bulk up to add some strength.


Is Florence still recovering from her injury? I recall her being so hungry she was worried about trying to eat her own foot. Alternatively, she is active, but doesn't do anything super strenuous so she has the same sort of body as a human runner.

----------


## theangelJean

> Is Florence still recovering from her injury? I recall her being so hungry she was worried about trying to eat her own foot. Alternatively, she is active, but doesn't do anything super strenuous so she has the same sort of body as a human runner.


Hmm.  How long were they in space, again?  That was what, 0.1g?  They were all visibly deconditioned at the end of it.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Hmm.  How long were they in space, again?  That was what, 0.1g?  They were all visibly deconditioned at the end of it.


Just three weeks.  At 0.05g.

Pournelle/Niven Transfer is at 8 m/s2.  Earth gravity is 9.8 m/s2.  Roughly 0.82g.

Florence was less deconditioned due to her adherence to exercise to try to mitigate the effects of low gravity, but do keep in mind that she is digitigrade, not plantigrade, which probably makes it a bit harder for her to support herself.

Not to mention that she went quadrupedal for her exercise, rather than bipedal, so some of the support muscles didn't get the use she needs.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

If memory serves, that has to do with how hard she pushes herself.

----------


## Rockphed

Good to see that Sam has an accurate understanding of his abilities.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And is keeping himself in shape. Makes you wonder if he's one of the fastest sprinters on Planet Jean.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Sam's ability to take the wrong message from whatever people tell him may be his most human trait.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Sam's ability to take the wrong message from whatever people tell him may be his most human trait.


Or, 'Hearing what he wants to hear'.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Right now, Sam is really lucky Florence can't get through the door by herself.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Oh, I think we have an idea of how much fuss there would be over losing a nuclear reactor. Right fellow Playgrounders?

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And Sam has learned an important lesson about safety protocols.

----------


## memnarch

> And Sam has learned an important lesson about safety protocols.


Oh yeah. Sam might or might not recognize it consciously, but the excess safety in the spaceship is for the benefit of everyone around, not just the person doing the work. (also, i'm amused that your second link doesn't work yet)

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Yeah, that's a problem with their site. You have to double link, because the first link will break with the next update.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And in this update Sam's learns of the hazards of traveling with someone even more famous than himself.

----------


## Willie the Duck

:Small Big Grin: Kinda love how the author felt the need to point out that Sam's pressure suit (which we already know has leaks) isn't vacuum rated. 

Also love how Sam will risk his life to provide a signature the robot doesn't even necessarily want. :Small Tongue:

----------


## theangelJean

> Kinda love how the author felt the need to point out that Sam's pressure suit (which we already know has leaks) isn't vacuum rated. 
> 
> Also love how Sam will risk his life to provide a signature the robot doesn't even necessarily want.


I also love how once Sam pokes a hole in the "survival bag" then that won't be vacuum rated either.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Fyraltari

Does anyone know why Florence's suit only has one big leg?

----------


## Cazero

I'd say it's because you can't walk anyway in 0g, so the one-leg design is cheaper and more efficient?

----------


## Rockphed

> I'd say it's because you can't walk anyway in 0g, so the one-leg design is cheaper and more efficient?


I want to say that she says that when she first puts it on.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Does anyone know why Florence's suit only has one big leg?


I'd guess it's because a concave separation between two legs would be a weak point where mechanical stress could turn into tears easily, nor do hips' position and range of motion lend themselves to the type of reinforcement you see around Florence's shoulders and elbows.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Plus it's not like she's going to be climbing or anything, so there's little reason to consider articulated legs as opposed to a mitten-type approach.

----------


## DavidSh

> I'd say it's because you can't walk anyway in 0g, so the one-leg design is cheaper and more efficient?


Though a lack of atmospheric pressure doesn't necessarily imply a lack of gravity or acceleration.  One might be on an airless moon, or outside a ship under thrust, or a rotating station.

----------


## sihnfahl

My personal opinion?  It's a design she made because the standard design does not accommodate a tail...

So it's simpler for a single-leg design that has her hop, rather than try to retrofit a standard design for her tail.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

She has a little cart that pulls her around. She doesn't need to hop, and is probably well aware that one good thrust can achieve escape velocity.

----------


## sihnfahl

> She has a little cart that pulls her around. She doesn't need to hop, and is probably well aware that one good thrust can achieve escape velocity.


Good for a linear path, but when one has to work angles or move 'up' in a confined zero-g environment, legs are pretty efficient.

----------


## theangelJean

> Good for a linear path, but when one has to work angles or move 'up' in a confined zero-g environment, legs are pretty efficient.


"Cart" + "legs" = torque?

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Being polite is never a waste of bandwidth.
The world would be a better place if more people thought like that.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Yeah, this comic (2/22/2021) is one that reminds me why I love Freefall.

----------


## Fyraltari

Yeah, that checks out.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

I'm suddenly reminded of a great line from a mediocre movie.

"We'll just cancel the return ticket."

The folks on Jean are probably just buying Sam a one-way ticket, though.

----------


## Cazero

Is Florence wearing hooves-shoes? When did she become a furry?  :Small Tongue:

----------


## sihnfahl

> Is Florence wearing hooves-shoes? When did she become a furry?


Hah!

In all honesty?  She's probably wearing absorbent foot coverings since, well, canines sweat through their feet.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

She walks on her paws anyway, so any kind of boot or shoe (say, something with a maglock to keep her on the deck) is going to look hoof-like.

----------


## Rockphed

I wonder how thurdad is going to judge the sqids. Is he going to say that they seem better than some humans? Will he agree with the people who have decided to close off Sam's world forever? The air is rife with drama!

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

When Sam puts it that way, the similarities are striking.

----------


## theangelJean

> I wonder how thurdad is going to judge the sqids. Is he going to say that they seem better than some humans? Will he agree with the people who have decided to close off Sam's world forever? The air is rife with drama!


I suspect we may have to ask him in another 15 years.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Sam's asking the important questions again. What's a road trip without snacks?

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

And again Sam makes that sound very familiar.

----------


## Rockphed

> And again Sam makes that sound very familiar.


As my granny is fond of saying, "those who enjoy sausage or respect the law should not watch either being made". Legal systems seem much nicer on the abstract.

----------


## Cazero

I'm surprised, really. I was expecting Sam to answer "Government?"

----------


## Rockphed

> I'm surprised, really. I was expecting Sam to answer "Government?"


Sam may scoff at rules and steal everything that isn't welded in place, but he comes from a society that makes rules and understands ownership. Thus his people must have processes for making rules. Sam is best described as hyper greedy and acting out because he is bored. He may have a mechanical aptitude best written as a complex number, but he is very good at more social understanding (albeit through the warped lens of his skewed ethics).

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Sam seems to view the whole thing as a game he's playing with children. From his cultural perspective, that's probably about as true an assessment as he can make. Hopefully, he will eventually realize that the 'kids' aren't going to grow proper scavenger instincts and he'll treat them on their own merits.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Sam may scoff at rules and steal everything that isn't welded in place, but he comes from a society that makes rules and understands ownership. Thus his people must have processes for making rules.


Sam clearly has the concept of rules ingrained into his mindset, as breaking them seems to be a discrete thing he aims to do. My guess (which we might actually get to test in the upcoming strips) is that Sam's society is very much like ours -- government, rules, ownership, theft, even war -- but it just operates with a much stronger tendency towards breaking the rules. A general non-violent tendency seems to be involved -- if you steal too much from me, instead of coming over there and smashing you or imprisoning you, I just steal right back.

----------


## TaRix

Hm.  Cephalopods not passing the marshmallow test?  Not according to Earth current events.  Of course, I've only seen the clickbait teasers, not the articles...

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

> Sam clearly has the concept of rules ingrained into his mindset, as breaking them seems to be a discrete thing he aims to do. My guess (which we might actually get to test in the upcoming strips) is that Sam's society is very much like ours -- government, rules, ownership, theft, even war -- but it just operates with a much stronger tendency towards breaking the rules. A general non-violent tendency seems to be involved -- if you steal too much from me, instead of coming over there and smashing you or imprisoning you, I just steal right back.


From what Sam's told us his society is pre-industrial. Which is why they don't just send him back: he knows way too much about modern technology.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> From what Sam's told us his society is pre-industrial. Which is why they don't just send him back: he knows way too much about modern technology.


Um, yes. I'm not sure how that relates to my point, but I agree.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Sam's society is not like ours. They're back at the point where stock raiding was considered a game to show off how awesome you are. We're past that now, and probably even moreso in comic.

----------


## Rockphed

> Sam's society is not like ours. They're back at the point where stock raiding was considered a game to show off how awesome you are. We're past that now, and probably even moreso in comic.


Counterpoint: mister Kornada.

----------


## Radar

> Counterpoint: mister Kornada.


With the slight correction that he did not try to show anyone how awesome he is: he thought it was patently obvious on a first glance.  :Small Wink:

----------


## Fyraltari

> Sam's society is not like ours. They're back at the point where stock raiding was considered a game to show off how awesome you are. We're past that now, and probably even moreso in comic.


I have no knowlegde of a point and place in history where cattle theft and raiding was considered a game and not a serious offense, often to be repayed in blood?

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Sam's society is not like ours. They're back at the point where stock raiding was considered a game to show off how awesome you are. We're past that now, and probably even moreso in comic.


They don't have government, rules, ownership, theft, or war? Because that's the point I made. Regardless, I'm really not sure we're 'past' something like stock raiding as an act of performative magnitude, we just have different methods of sending the same signals, just ones you can do in a boardroom while wearing a suit.

----------


## sihnfahl

Why do I get the feeling that Mark used the kender as a template for the sqid?

----------


## Fyraltari

Wait, how unequal is society in this comic (assuming Sam wasn't talking about human/A.I. inequalities), also does Sam's species have C.E.O.s or is he just making an analogy.




> Why do I get the feeling that Mark used the kender as a template for the sqid?


What's a kender?

----------


## Kantaki

> What's a kender?


Kleptomaniac hobbits with zero self-preservation instincts.

----------


## sihnfahl

> What's a kender?


Ah, a fictional race from the Dragonlance series by Weis and Hickman.

Most other races see them as thieves.  They're really just a race of kleptomaniacs with a loose sense of personal possessions, and a wanderlust that tends to lead a lot of them into trouble.

And by 'trouble', anything goes.  Everything from wandering into a dragon's lair, to ending up at a dark summoning to an evil god.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Basically, they exist to ruin everybody else's fun. And you turn Evil if you do anything but smile and praise them for stealing or losing your stuff.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Kleptomaniac hobbits with zero self-preservation instincts.





> Ah, a fictional race from the Dragonlance series by Weis and Hickman.
> 
> Most other races see them as thieves.  They're really just a race of kleptomaniacs with a loose sense of personal possessions, and a wanderlust that tends to lead a lot of them into trouble.
> 
> And by 'trouble', anything goes.  Everything from wandering into a dragon's lair, to ending up at a dark summoning to an evil god.


Thank you.



> Basically, they exist to ruin everybody else's fun. And you turn Evil if you do anything but smile and praise them for stealing or losing your stuff.


Wut?

----------


## sihnfahl

> Wut?


Ah, it's the Bad Kender Player reference.

Since they have no concept of personal property, and are prone to somehow 'acquiring' things, even from other party members...

"We found your party mate in possession of the Elven Lord's signet ring..."

"Uh, who moved the shiny macguffin that the questgiver said shouldn't be moved?"

"Did you use my spell components for cooking spices again..."

As for the second part, it's part of the bad design.  They're effectively children in adult's bodies, so some folks try to use that as a justification that you can't really be mad at them for their actions - cause they don't know any better!  (Course, even the dumbest dog knows not to chew on the furniture after a few baps on the nose...)

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

The rules for the Dragonlance setting say that only Evil people punish kender for what they do. Kender decides to take up bugle playing when you're trying to sneak past a patrol of ogres? You just smile and nod. Kender decides to shoot off all your arrows to see which one goes furthest? You just smile and nod. Kender decides to learn magic by reading every scroll your wizard has? First you heal them, and then you smile and nod.

Frankly, I would rather have someone be a Malkavian in a Vampire game. At least there you can stake them out for the sun.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Why do I get the feeling that Mark used the kender as a template for the sqid?


Well, the Sqid are clearly more intelligent: Sam says to look out for the group, and take advantage of those who aren't IN your group. Keep as much as you can without causing your group to attack you.

an adventuring party is apart of your group, you don't steal from that, that might cause them to attack you.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Well, the Sqid are clearly more intelligent: Sam says to look out for the group, and take advantage of those who aren't IN your group. Keep as much as you can without causing your group to attack you.


Personally, it would appear to me that Sam doesn't seem to get along with many humans there, to the point they held a raffle as to whom had the rights to push the button that got him off planet, and few sympathetic to him.

With as much trouble as he's apparently caused, in humans and robots, it's amazing he had no fatal 'accidents' just to stop his antics...

----------


## Rockphed

> Personally, it would appear to me that Sam doesn't seem to get along with many humans there, to the point they held a raffle as to whom had the rights to push the button that got him off planet, and few sympathetic to him.
> 
> With as much trouble as he's apparently caused, in humans and robots, it's amazing he had no fatal 'accidents' just to stop his antics...


Sam is significantly smarter than he lets on.  He also is fairly hard to kill (excepting by disabling his environmental suit).  I imagine that a significant number of attempts at "fatal accident" were either ignored or turned out really bad for his attacker (as in Sam got away with a significant item they wanted).  Also he figured out that if he owes people money then they have a vested interest in his continued existence.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Which only works as long as somebody cares more about the money than removing the rotten thorn from the septic wound in their side. Until Florence came around the odds of getting a copper chip back from Sam were effectively nil, and it's surprising he wasn't killed so they could sell the _Chicken_ for scrap to use to pay off his debts.

----------


## Rockphed

> Which only works as long as somebody cares more about the money than removing the rotten thorn from the septic wound in their side. Until Florence came around the odds of getting a copper chip back from Sam were effectively nil, and it's surprising he wasn't killed so they could sell the _Chicken_ for scrap to use to pay off his debts.


He also provided the service of depriving rude people who talk on their phones during movies of their phones.

----------


## Rogar Demonblud

Given the population of Jean is less than some small towns, I'm not sure who was actually being inconvenienced there.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Sam is significantly smarter than he lets on.  He also is fairly hard to kill (excepting by disabling his environmental suit).  I imagine that a significant number of attempts at "fatal accident" were either ignored or turned out really bad for his attacker (as in Sam got away with a significant item they wanted).  Also he figured out that if he owes people money then they have a vested interest in his continued existence.


Given his suit was his weak point, hitting it at range in his life support would have killed him.  The status of the filters was very bad when Florence looked at them.  He didn't know how to maintain the suit that kept him alive.

And even the most intelligent and cunning of individuals can't respond if someone puts a .50 through them from a half mile.




> it's surprising he wasn't killed so they could sell the _Chicken_ for scrap to use to pay off his debts.


The entire reason why they let him have the Chicken was that they expected he'd kill himself doing something stupid while trying to repair it.  Helix was a lifter robot and didn't know a thing about starship repair.  Sam from a pre-industrial society, thrust into an advanced one, and he doesn't really know how things work.

To continue the RPG analogy, the DM set it up so that players could steal from one another, but player killing was forbidden.  Sure, stealing could end you up in jail ... until a character comes along that'll literally steal the doors in the jail...

----------


## Rockphed

> The entire reason why they let him have the Chicken was that they expected he'd kill himself doing something stupid while trying to repair it.  Helix was a lifter robot and didn't know a thing about starship repair.  Sam from a pre-industrial society, thrust into an advanced one, and he doesn't really know how things work.
> 
> To continue the RPG analogy, the DM set it up so that players could steal from one another, but player killing was forbidden.  Sure, stealing could end you up in jail ... until a character comes along that'll literally steal the doors in the jail...


Yet Sam swears that he doesn't know what happened to the doors and that the other prisoners kept throwing him over the wall.

----------


## memnarch

> Given his suit was his weak point, hitting it at range in his life support would have killed him.  The status of the filters was very bad when Florence looked at them.  He didn't know how to maintain the suit that kept him alive.
> 
> And even the most intelligent and cunning of individuals can't respond if someone puts a .50 through them from a half mile.
> ...


Or some rock salt.


I think that the biggest reason Sam hasn't been offed yet is that the colonists are pretty bored and killing Sam would remove an entertainment source in the long run. Took a bit, but I found the comment that said it best.




> When did you read them (how old were you at the time)? 
> 
> 
> 
> The way that Sam runs around in society, clearly as a member of society (the store clerk might keep themselves between him and the register, but he's not treated like a wild animal had just entered the premises, much less like a serious threat), indicate to me that he's widely regarded as a nuisance character more than anything else. The ease at which angry mobs form indicate to me that the citizens of Jean are profoundly bored people. The whole comic has a bit of a Mayberry feel to it -- all the stakes are small and the crooks are no real threat and everyone ends up with ice cream... right up until the wolf engineer reminds everyone that they are using nuclear power and trusting a few millimeters of metal to protect them from the pitiless deadliness of space or the incompetent CEO tries attempts AI genocide.

----------


## sihnfahl

> I think that the biggest reason Sam hasn't been offed yet is that the colonists are pretty bored and killing Sam would remove an entertainment source in the long run. Took a bit, but I found the comment that said it best.


Counterpoint.  They may have even had a pool as to how he managed.

----------


## Drascin

> Or some rock salt.
> 
> 
> I think that the biggest reason Sam hasn't been offed yet is that the colonists are pretty bored and killing Sam would remove an entertainment source in the long run. Took a bit, but I found the comment that said it best.


Also, you know. Most people in civilized countries aren't the kind of psychopaths that would murder a dude just because he's a nuisance?

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

> Also, you know. Most people in civilized countries aren't the kind of psychopaths that would murder a dude just because he's a nuisance?


Yeah there's a very big difference between a (possibly joking) "Maybe he'll just get killed working on this ship, and the problem will solve itself!" and going "Welp, time to hire a hitman!". One of those is the kind of griping everyone does when irritated. The other is insane. I'll leave it to you to decide which is which.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Also, we've seen that Sam views imprisonment as a fun challenge, not a punishment, so that avenue is closed too.

----------


## Rockphed

> Also, we've seen that Sam views imprisonment as a fun challenge, not a punishment, so that avenue is closed too.


And the police have a hard time capturing him.

----------


## Gez

Sam is clearly a Looney Toon character; and the nature of his relationship with the other colonists clearly follows Looney Toons logic. He annoys everyone but things stay good natured. It helps that he's mostly doing petty theft and they basically live in a post-scarcity economy, what with all the robot labor.

----------


## HandofShadows

And sometimes he puts stuff back just to mess with people. He also has ice cream for everyone after the chases.

----------


## Fyraltari

Dodged a pretty big bullet, there.

----------


## Kornaki

I realize this is just being played for a joke, but didn't sam already conclude that contact now between his species and humanity would be very bad for his species?  I thought at one point it was a plot point that he couldn't send anything home because an invasive bacteria would potentially wipe out his whole planet

----------


## Lord Raziere

> I realize this is just being played for a joke, but didn't sam already conclude that contact now between his species and humanity would be very bad for his species?  I thought at one point it was a plot point that he couldn't send anything home because an invasive bacteria would potentially wipe out his whole planet


Yes he did. though I think technically I think it was either ants or ducks that could wipe his planet out, not bacteria. but that is probably also a concern.

though given that he only asked the question, it can be played ambiguously: in one interpretation he is asking because is greedy and could be leveraged to get help for his species in some manner. in another interpretation it might be _concern_ because if another Sqid gets this question asked and they answer in the affirmative so they can get money thinking they can scam the humans big time, that could screw _everything_ up. remember his society is pre-industrial and likes to keep information secret, so in theory he is the only one who even knows such bacteria or invasive species even EXIST if there isn't a clan of Sqids who somehow discovered germ theory and microscopes.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Yes he did. though I think technically I think it was either ants or ducks that could wipe his planet out, not bacteria. but that is probably also a concern.


Sam brought up ducks as an example, just talking about evolutionary advantages.  But then expanded on all the other organisms that found him tasty.  Including things that are normally herbivorous.

It was expanded by Winston as to the other things that could survive the trip, even in hard vacuum, and be harder for the sqids to stop due to them being micro rather than macro.

----------


## Kantaki

When it comes to heartbeats and breathing I like repetitive.
And once more the comic speaks great wisdom. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## sihnfahl

> When it comes to heartbeats and breathing I like repetitive.


It's that one repetitive beat you usually don't get tired of hearing.

----------


## halfeye

> It's that one repetitive beat you usually don't get tired of hearing.


I don't much like hearing mine, it tends to do 3:4, or 5:6.

----------


## Fyraltari

> When it comes to heartbeats and breathing I like repetitive.
> And once more the comic speaks great wisdom.


About a subject it already talked about, appropriately enough.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> About a subject it already talked about, appropriately enough.


When a comic's this good, I don't mind if it revisits the same themes numerous times. The two comics are worlds apart, but I'm reminded of how often Calvin and Hobbes would return to its favorite subjects.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Unfortunately this seems to be a "upright ship at the bottom of the lake" situation.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

"And done really wrong, it's still at the bottom of the lake, but it's not upright, either."

----------


## Rockphed

> "And done really wrong, it's still at the bottom of the lake, but it's not upright, either."


I feel like posting the video of jack and will walking across the bottom of the harbor with their sunken, upside down rowboat.

----------


## tyckspoon

Oh, hey, they're going to a factory full of under-occupied robots, with a human on board, to ask for a special project. They're going to get the most over-built reactor a ship has ever had.. probably get the ship's other reactor overhauled for free too just to give the robots something to do.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Oh, hey, they're going to a factory full of under-occupied robots, with a human on board, to ask for a special project. They're going to get the most over-built reactor a ship has ever had.. probably get the ship's other reactor overhauled for free too just to give the robots something to do.


Depends where these robots were built. If they're from Jean, yeah, they will be rather eager to please. If they're from off-world they might have more restrictive programming and might take some more convincing.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Oh, hey, they're going to a factory full of under-occupied robots, with a human on board, to ask for a special project. They're going to get the most over-built reactor a ship has ever had.. probably get the ship's other reactor overhauled for free too just to give the robots something to do.


In space, no-one can hear a million robots shout DOGGY!

----------


## Rockphed

Counterpoint: explosives are dangerous. Edge can ignore human orders he doesn't like due to his primary job being dangerous enough.  I give even odds that the robots are initially reluctant to entrust a human with any reactor that they could build.

On the other hand, I expect them to eventually pull the dead reactor out of the dead ship to melt it down for materials.

----------


## theangelJean

New comic: These are definitely Jean robots.  Rover17 now counts as a person!

----------


## Kantaki

I just noticed Rover17 iz in fact wearing a verra nize hat. :Small Cool: 
And Yes. The attempt a Jägerspeak was necessary. :Small Tongue:

----------


## theangelJean

Someone on the Freefall forums just pointed out that Rover17 has been declared a person ... but the comms machine it's talking to hasn't claimed any such status.  So maybe they're not all Bowman's design?

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Someone on the Freefall forums just pointed out that Rover17 has been declared a person ... but the comms machine it's talking to hasn't claimed any such status.  So maybe they're not all Bowman's design?


My goodness, a webcomic that still has a forum of its own? I am impressed!

----------


## Rockphed

> My goodness, a webcomic that still has a forum of its own? I am impressed!


To be fair it isn't their own forum, they just have a dedicated space carved out on someone else's forum.  I am fairly certain that it is the forum used by all the comics that Freefall does regular April 1 cameo/joke stories with.

----------


## Fyraltari

Existential crisises are best crisises.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

I love the little tail-antenna wag.

----------


## Fyraltari

Florence, sometimes (often, even) it's okay to just accept people's gratitude.

----------


## DavidSh

> Florence, sometimes (often, even) it's okay to just accept people's gratitude.


But this would be giving people's gratitude away to Sam.  Florence should get a fraction of the ship ownership for that.  Has Sam ever paid Florence anything, ever?  Or is Florence's status that of a stolen slave?

----------


## Rakaydos

> But this would be giving people's gratitude away to Sam.  Florence should get a fraction of the ship ownership for that.  Has Sam ever paid Florence anything, ever?  Or is Florence's status that of a stolen slave?


Was she included in the blanket emancipation of AI? or was that just robots?

She may have only recently gained personhood, and hasnt yet negotiated payscale.

----------


## DavidSh

Cross-over with _Star Trek_ narrowly avoided.

----------


## Fyraltari

How far in the future is this supposed to be again?

----------


## Rockphed

> How far in the future is this supposed to be again?


I don't think it ever says. But occasionally we get pointed social commentary about our day (like when they were talking about sparkly monsters and if turned of to be Hitler).

----------


## Yuki Akuma

Freefall is set an arbitrary amount of time into the distant future, but Mark Stanley has never been afraid to have his characters reference current events. He doesn't really seem to care how weird it is that characters only ever reference twentieth and early twenty-first century culture - but then again, no one ever really questioned why the characters in Star Trek almost never reference events and media from the past four hundred years of their timeline, but quite often talk about events that happened half a millenium previously.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Freefall is set an arbitrary amount of time into the distant future, but Mark Stanley has never been afraid to have his characters reference current events. He doesn't really seem to care how weird it is that characters only ever reference twentieth and early twenty-first century culture - but then again, no one ever really questioned why the characters in Star Trek almost never reference events and media from the past four hundred years of their timeline, but quite often talk about events that happened half a millenium previously.


I agree with the base concept but not the example. Characters in fictional series certainly do usually make a lot of references to things the audience would understand. My take is always that we the audience are only dialing in to see the times when they make references which would mean anything to us, and the other six days a week we don't check in on the characters is when they are making references to 23rd century sports stars and 22nd century movies and novels written in 2089 and such. However, Star Trek (with significant variation, depending on the series) had been fairly good about referencing non-current culture just offscreen or just before/after the camera cut. Sure Picard is fascinated with Shakespeare, but he also digs for pottery on such and such ancient planet. Data looks for the fairly-universally understood to be the 'most funny' standup comedian and learns it is a guy with a routine about warp physics, which he decides is too esoteric, so he picks one at random and gets Joe Piscapo. It's infrequent, but just enough to indicate there is a greater world of history and culture that happened between now and then, but we as the audience don't get to/have to sit through it.

----------


## Fyraltari

I'm just not sure a series called *Star Trek* would have much appeal when space travel is as common as it is in this comic.

----------


## Kantaki

> I'm just not sure a series called *Star Trek* would have much appeal when space travel is as common as it is in this comic.


I dunno, there's plenty of TV shows that are essentially "normal* people living their normal* life"
At least it might've some appeal in a "silly ideas people back then had about the present" :Small Amused: 

*More or less

----------


## TaRix

Sure, it's nice to have a spare, but why does the crew want another reactor, again?

----------


## Jasdoif

> Sure, it's nice to have a spare, but why does the crew want another reactor, again?


With only one reactor, they're limited to being an orbital shuttle.  The second reactor was never actually theirs, they basically borrowed it to be able to deliver it.

So until they get another reactor, they don't have the ability to get the ship back to Jean.

----------


## Fyraltari

I missed this by a few days, but Thurdad and Sam didn't sing karaoke, they sang a capella which isn't the same thing.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Sure, it's nice to have a spare, but why does the crew want another reactor, again?


It's a legal requirement. They aren't allowed to leave orbit without two reactors. Because you really don't want to be in space when your sole reactor breaks down.

----------


## theangelJean

I think the second reactor is even referred to as only being necessary for life support (in case of an emergency).  So if your main reactor breaks down, you can at least stay alive (or go into cold-sleep) until someone comes along to rescue you.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Sam's approach is kinda backwards, but he has to work with what he's got.
Also, can't argue with success.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Okay, this guy deserves having Sam inflicted on him.
I really hope  he solves The Morsel's problems- in exactly the way the fool doesn't want.
Maybe Sam can get him to say "with any means necessary" or something like that. :Small Amused: 
Still one of my favourite Babylon 5 moments.

----------


## theangelJean

> New comic
> 
> Okay, this guy deserves having Sam inflicted on him.
> I really hope  he solves The Morsel's problems- in exactly the way the fool doesn't want.
> Maybe Sam can get him to say "with any means necessary" or something like that.
> Still one of my favourite Babylon 5 moments.


The Morsel?  Interesting nickname.  

I get that his name is De Morel, which is probably a play on "a"moral or "im"moral, but it just makes me think of mushrooms. And wonder if Dr Bowman referred to mushroom-heads at some point.

Edit: full name Mr Ames De Morel.  Ame (with a circonflex) being French for "soul".  It's possible that the "de" is ironically denoting a descriptor and the guy is actually A Moral Soul.  But his behaviour so far doesn't support it.  Then again he does seem to be overwhelmingly convinced of his own rightness.

----------


## Gez

> Edit: full name Mr Ames De Morel.  Ame (with a circonflex) being French for "soul".  It's possible that the "de" is ironically denoting a descriptor and the guy is actually A Moral Soul.  But his behaviour so far doesn't support it.  Then again he does seem to be overwhelmingly convinced of his own rightness.


Well if we're reading too much into that, it'd translate to "soul of moral" maybe. Or perhaps "soul of morale". There's a bit of a funny false friend thing going on between French and English, where the nouns "moral" and "morale" are translated, respectively, as "morale" and "moral". E.g.
"le moral du personnel" => "the morale of the personnel"
"la morale de l'histoire" => "the moral of the story"

Given how apparently part of the problem is a profound loss of motivation caused by inept leadership, it might be that the morale is a more pertinent reading here than the moral. Either way, it's certainly an ironic name.

----------


## halfeye

> The Morsel?  Interesting nickname.  
> 
> I get that his name is De Morel, which is probably a play on "a"moral or "im"moral, but it just makes me think of mushrooms. And wonder if Dr Bowman referred to mushroom-heads at some point.
> 
> Edit: full name Mr Ames De Morel.  Ame (with a circonflex) being French for "soul".  It's possible that the "de" is ironically denoting a descriptor and the guy is actually A Moral Soul.  But his behaviour so far doesn't support it.  Then again he does seem to be overwhelmingly convinced of his own rightness.


I think the name if it means anything, which it probably doesn't, Bowman has nothing to do with bows for instance, then the reference will be to the mushrooms, probably to the "kept in the dark and fed bull****" meme.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> The Morsel?  Interesting nickname.  
> 
> I get that his name is De Morel, which is probably a play on "a"moral or "im"moral, but it just makes me think of mushrooms. And wonder if Dr Bowman referred to mushroom-heads at some point.
> 
> Edit: full name Mr Ames De Morel.  Ame (with a circonflex) being French for "soul".  It's possible that the "de" is ironically denoting a descriptor and the guy is actually A Moral Soul.  But his behaviour so far doesn't support it.  Then again he does seem to be overwhelmingly convinced of his own rightness.


Or maybe De Morel-ized? As in -- representative of this entire station which is is (so to speak) a company town after the company left. 

I say that because, sure right now he'd being portrayed as the schnook who tried to pay the protagonists with a reactor he knew wouldn't serve their needs, and they could just try to enact some just desserts and move on, but the overall plot arc seems to be that they will figure out how to rescue this station's economy. If so, De Morel is unlikely to get a thorough comeuppance, and thus I don't think he'll be made into quite the mustachio-twirling villains that Mr. Kornada was.




> if it means anything, which it probably doesn't


Or that, of course.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Or maybe De Morel-ized? As in -- representative of this entire station which is is (so to speak) a company town after the company left. 
> 
> I say that because, sure right now he'd being portrayed as the schnook who tried to pay the protagonists with a reactor he knew wouldn't serve their needs


Did he know that, though?



> and they could just try to enact some just desserts and move on, but the overall plot arc seems to be that they will figure out how to rescue this station's economy. If so, De Morel is unlikely to get a thorough comeuppance, and thus I don't think he'll be made into quite the mustachio-twirling villains that Mr. Kornada was.


Kornada was more portrayed as utterly urresponsible than actively malicious.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Did he know that, though?


It's certainly not clear, but the would-a-few-rolls-of-duct-tape-make-this-better bit leads me to believe that, at least at the moment, that's how he's being portrayed regardless. He's (and I'm sure there's a better word for this) the schnook that's not paying them what they wanted, and it remains to be seen if Sam is going to get what he wants by negotiating with him, fooling him, or working around him. 




> Kornada was more portrayed as utterly urresponsible than actively malicious.


Agree but not sure of the relevance. My point is that he was portrayed as an over-the-top antagonist -- one that the audience wouldn't feel bad with just about any form of comeuppance. And he got quite a comeuppance, and it felt cathartic. Everything we've seen so far (particularly the number of strips dedicated to discovering exactly why the station is in such economic plight and why exactly each part of it isn't paying each other and doing vital maintenance and such) suggests to me that the main plot arc here is the protagonist team figuring out how to make the station viable again, such that maintenance will happen and everyone won't die horribly, Winston's parents can continue to live there, Niomi can have gainful employ, and everyone live happily ever after (excepting the main cast who will move on to new adventures when the next story arc happens in 3-8 IRL years). Therefore it is my hypothesis that this De Morel guy is not going to get some epic just desserts, and as such won't turn out to be nearly the Karmically-acceptable-target that Kornada showed himself to be.

----------


## theangelJean

> I think the name if it means anything, which it probably doesn't, Bowman has nothing to do with bows for instance, then the reference will be to the mushrooms, probably to the "kept in the dark and fed bull****" meme.


Oddly enough I think I *just* found out where the name Bowman came from, hang on....




> Dr. James Alistair Bowman: Dr Grace Holloway came up with the name "Dr. Bowman" for the Eighth Doctor whilst introducing him to others at the New Year's Eve party. (TV: Doctor Who) The Doctor subsequently used the "Dr. Bowman" alias on occasion, filling it out to "James Alistair Bowman".


Just had to confirm dates to check - The telemovie was 1996, Freefall started in 1998. 
*edit*: the comic apparently started being published online in 1998 - wikifur says it started in a fanzine in 1989.  Now I wonder when Dr Bowman and the name Bowman's Wolf were first introduced.




> Well if we're reading too much into that, it'd translate to "soul of moral" maybe. Or perhaps "soul of morale". There's a bit of a funny false friend thing going on between French and English, where the nouns "moral" and "morale" are translated, respectively, as "morale" and "moral". E.g.
> "le moral du personnel" => "the morale of the personnel"
> "la morale de l'histoire" => "the moral of the story"
> 
> Given how apparently part of the problem is a profound loss of motivation caused by inept leadership, it might be that the morale is a more pertinent reading here than the moral. Either way, it's certainly an ironic name.





> Or maybe De Morel-ized? As in -- representative of this entire station which is is (so to speak) a company town after the company left.


I'm actually leaning towards this one now.  Demoralised?  I figure that's the way the workforce are feeling, both as a consequence of the factories not having a purpose, and probably also because of the attitude of this particular manager.




> I say that because, sure right now he'd being portrayed as the schnook who tried to pay the protagonists with a reactor he knew wouldn't serve their needs, and they could just try to enact some just desserts and move on, but the overall plot arc seems to be that they will figure out how to rescue this station's economy. If so, De Morel is unlikely to get a thorough comeuppance, and thus I don't think he'll be made into quite the mustachio-twirling villains that Mr. Kornada was.


I agree with Fyraltari that he didn't necessarily know that the reactor wouldn't serve their needs, but my take is that he didn't actually care.  This guy isn't out to deliberately trick people into doing what he wants with the promise of a reward that doesn't eventuate.  He is more about penny-pinching - that is, getting whatever he can without spending any money.  If he can promise them something that he already has, and has no need of, who cares if it actually works for them.  But I agree with Willie the Duck's predictions about the direction of the story, mostly...




> Agree but not sure of the relevance. My point is that he was portrayed as an over-the-top antagonist -- one that the audience wouldn't feel bad with just about any form of comeuppance. And he got quite a comeuppance, and it felt cathartic. Everything we've seen so far (particularly the number of strips dedicated to discovering exactly why the station is in such economic plight and why exactly each part of it isn't paying each other and doing vital maintenance and such) suggests to me that the main plot arc here is the protagonist team figuring out how to make the station viable again, such that maintenance will happen and everyone won't die horribly, Winston's parents can continue to live there, Niomi can have gainful employ, and everyone live happily ever after (excepting the main cast who will move on to new adventures when the next story arc happens in 3-8 IRL years). Therefore it is my hypothesis that this De Morel guy is going to get some epic just desserts, and as such won't turn out to be nearly the Karmically-acceptable-target that Kornada showed himself to be.


I was with you right up until the last sentence.  De Morel being comically punished or given an excessively "fitting" retribution wouldn't serve the purposes of anyone else in the comic - what they need is an economically viable space station.  And unlike Kornada, he's not coming off as supremely self-serving.  So I'm not sure what you mean by "some epic just desserts"?

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I was with you right up until the last sentence.  De Morel being comically punished or given an excessively "fitting" retribution wouldn't serve the purposes of anyone else in the comic - what they need is an economically viable space station.  And unlike Kornada, he's not coming off as supremely self-serving.  So I'm not sure what you mean by "some epic just desserts"?


That's because I missed the negative :Small Tongue: . He is not going to get any epic just desserts like Kornada. Edited the original.

----------


## memnarch

> Oddly enough I think I *just* found out where the name Bowman came from, hang on....
> 
> 
> 
> Just had to confirm dates to check - The telemovie was 1996, Freefall started in 1998. 
> *edit*: the comic apparently started being published online in 1998 - wikifur says it started in a fanzine in 1989.  Now I wonder when Dr Bowman and the name Bowman's Wolf were first introduced.
> 
> 
> ...



Comic #9 it turns out, at least for the name.

----------


## Gez

> Oddly enough I think I *just* found out where the name Bowman came from, hang on....
> 
> Just had to confirm dates to check - The telemovie was 1996, Freefall started in 1998. 
> *edit*: the comic apparently started being published online in 1998 - wikifur says it started in a fanzine in 1989.  Now I wonder when Dr Bowman and the name Bowman's Wolf were first introduced.


Well, if you want "Dr. Bowman" to be a reference, there's a certain character named Dr. David Bowman in _2001: A Space Odyssey_.

----------


## Kornaki

Is the part of the problem sam sees something actionable, or is it just the observation that the manager apparently thinks 50% of all the money the station is wasting is an enormous sum.

----------


## halfeye

> Is the part of the problem sam sees something actionable, or is it just the observation that the manager apparently thinks 50% of all the money the station is wasting is an enormous sum.


I think the problem is that however big the sum is (which I don't believe is actually known), that manager wants almost all of it. Which would mean, if he got his way, nobody else would be in any way motivated to save money. He is in some ways as bad as Kornuada, just not so blind to the law.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> I think the problem is that however big the sum is (which I don't believe is actually known), that manager wants almost all of it. Which would mean, if he got his way, nobody else would be in any way motivated to save money. He is in some ways as bad as Kornuada, just not so blind to the law.


Yeah, I think the point of the interaction is that if you wanted to work together with them to get like ten bucks, he'd be the guy to insist he'd get nine of them or something because he doesn't want to pay you five dollars.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

While I'm not sure a court would agree that Sam just got contracted for 51%, I sure got a chuckle out of it.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> While I'm not sure a court would agree that Sam just got contracted for 51%, I sure got a chuckle out of it.


Oh, not a snowball's chance in an inferno, but it was funny.
I was going to say, 'that's the kind of thing that would work in a children's cartoon show*,' but then realized it'd work on plenty of cartoons not aimed specifically at child (_Simpsons_ or _Futurama_, or the like), and then realized that I was talking about a comic strip, and realized that it really is consistent with the strip as a whole. 

Freefall is (a little) odd in that Florence basically is living in a realistic sci fi world where people triple check their spacesuit seals and have to register flight plans, while Sam gets to have half the town chase him (but then not lock him away) and everyone ends up with ice cream. Where this interaction with De Morel will land (perhaps he will have to end up paying 51% of the savings) might depend on the Realism-Wacky mix this plot ends up being.

----------


## Willie the Duck

Okay, so I think I miscalled this guy's likability/value as a karmic target. I will say I think we were lead a bit astray, as it was previously telegraphed that the station had lost its main purpose and was, perhaps, kind of a natural retracting economy (and that that was the problem to be solved). 
One would have thought that some place like a space station would have already had robots where robots could do a job.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Okay, this guy deserves having Sam inflicted on him.


Yes. He does like few others.
I am still curious about how Sam's own morale code see this though.

Or if Sam points out how proffitable it is to replace him with a robot.

----------


## Gez

Yup, a demoralizer.

As funny as it is in a cartoony comic like Freefall, people like him really exist, and it's absolutely not amusing in the real world.

----------


## Fyraltari

Oy, this guy's a ****.

That's all I have to say.

----------


## memnarch

New ship coming up? The robots really like to be useful.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Cazero

This sounds like the kind of random act of construction that could really cut down the profitability of a space station with limited supply of raw materials.

----------


## Fyraltari

Wait, I thought they had already left the bomb factory with their new reactor. Is the bomb factory on the station?

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Wait, I thought they had already left the bomb factory with their new reactor. Is the bomb factory on the station?


I don't think they ever actually went to the bomb factory, just called them. The reactor will take a bit to fabricate so it's more efficient for them to do other things while they wait.

----------


## theangelJean

Hmm.  

The robots collectively owe Florence a large number of work-hours.  She doesn't want to use them.  Or she doesn't want them.  There's a difference...

Since she can't pay the robots for the new reactor in other currency, she's accepting the need to use the work-hours.  Sam proposed that once they get paid for sorting out the station, they will pay back the robots.

But now the robots are considering actively twisting her words.  They know that one interpretation of what she asked is for a new reactor.  But if they made her a new ship instead, that would use up a lot more work-hours.  That she would want to pay back.  And hasn't actually asked for.

What's the ethics of paying a collective debt in unsolicited materials?

----------


## lord_khaine

I think your misunderstanding the situation?
The robots saw chance to build something. And to help Florence.
Two things they both badly want to do.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

Additionally, I believe they already negotiated and agreed on a 'price'.

I bet the robots' current plan is just to do more for that same price.

----------


## Kantaki

> This sounds like the kind of random act of construction that could really cut down the profitability of a space station with limited supply of raw materials.


No one tell De Morel, but his "replace meatbags with toasters=saved money=profit" plan?
Somehow I get the feeling it might not quite work out that way. :Small Amused:

----------


## Jasdoif

> Is the bomb factory on the station?


The bomb factory is 160,000km away, while the boneyard is 5,000km from the station.  (Since I checked: a light second is just short of 300,000km , so the factory is within their allotted range)

----------


## Douglas

Remember the robot that asked how much _they_ should pay _her_ to be given the job. They just want to have useful things to do.

----------


## TaRix

> Remember the robot that asked how much _they_ should pay _her_ to be given the job. They just want to have useful things to do.


And convincing the robots to do less work than that will result in sizable savings.  Easiest way to get paid twice.  Well, once-and-a-half.

----------


## Rockphed

I am fairly certain that rover17 has passed bidding on to accounting, who might or might not be willing to engage in bribery to ensure they get the job.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Robots have to get payed the same as humans?
Now that's a idea I can get behind. :Small Amused: 

Though I could see it backfire, considering the meaning of"robot". :Small Eek:

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Would someone explain the "unit trip device" joke to me?

----------


## memnarch

> Would someone explain the "unit trip device" joke to me?


Essentially, it's calling the wearer a circuit breaker (fancy off switch) for having turned off the power to something unintentionally.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Ah, thank you.

----------


## Kantaki

High explosives. If it doesn't solve the problem, it will at least make it entertaining.

I'm always amazed how this comic dispenses those simple yet deep truths.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Fyraltari

Reading yesterday's comic:
And _I_ find it amazing that there are humans who *do* like liver.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Reading yesterday's comic:
> And _I_ find it amazing that there are humans who *do* like liver.


It shouldn't be too surprising, it's a fatty meat product. Aside from less salt, it's not unlike how plenty of people consider bacon to be truly awesome. I came of age when cholesterol was the great taboo, so I never learned how to cook/what to do with liver proper, but I remember as a kid having liverwurst or other liver-heavy tube-meat at my grandparent's house (and it was good).

----------


## Radar

> Reading yesterday's comic:
> And _I_ find it amazing that there are humans who *do* like liver.


The key problem with frying liver (and this is how you usually serve it) is that it burns fairly easily and acquires an unpleasant bitter taste. As I am not much of a cook I simply simmer it instead with onions and apples, which works really well. Also, chicken liver is much tastier than pork liver - delicate and slightly sweet.

----------


## Kantaki

"I wish I could make my wife happy with just a thrown frisbee."  :Small Big Grin: 
I like Winston's mom.
She's kinda terrifying*, but I like her.

*Without someone keeping her in check she would probably be the cause of endless existential dread.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Rockphed

This isn't the first time that someone has opined that human creations being unable to hurt humans is bad in this comic.  I think Sam espoused that idea while trying to get the people to vote for freeing the robots.  Sometimes I think Sam should really be named "Puck".

----------


## Fyraltari

About yesterday's page:

----------


## lord_khaine

So.. thats the secret..
Economic frag grenade.. ? well it explains the the jump in expenses.
Honestly its understandable with what a massive jerk the administrator is. 
But do hope the workers manage to make Sam a better offer.

----------


## Rockphed

> So.. thats the secret..
> Economic frag grenade.. ? well it explains the the jump in expenses.
> Honestly its understandable with what a massive jerk the administrator is. 
> But do hope the workers manage to make Sam a better offer.


The agreement was for "17* percent of savings", without regard to baseline. I imagine Sam can use that ambiguity to his benefit.

*or 51, depending on how you parse his agreement with De Morell.

----------


## Gez

To answer Sam's question first: this is an Aldrin cycler.

Not exactly an exciting prospect for Sam...

----------


## Kantaki

Not naming your vessel "Titanic" seems like a good idea.
No need to tempt fate... :Small Big Grin: 

Edit: Oh, I know. _Mary Celeste_. Didn't hit any large chunks of ice, so it should be safe.
Ish. But as long as you don't let any humans onboard they can't pull no vanishing acts.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

"What's the official job title for 'someone who's really good at spending other people's money'?

Sorry Sam, can't answer that.
I'm pretty sure most potential answers would be highly offensive in one way or another.

----------


## Fyraltari

> New comic
> 
> "What's the official job title for 'someone who's really good at spending other people's money'?
> 
> Sorry Sam, can't answer that.
> I'm pretty sure most potential answers would be highly offensive in one way or another.


I belive the answer is "manager".

----------


## Ibrinar

Beside manager there are personal shoppers and fund managers. And I guess if you run a company without owning it you do that too so CEO as well I guess. Hmm and for that matter anyone working there responsible for acquisition too.

----------


## Rockphed

> New comic
> 
> "What's the official job title for 'someone who's really good at spending other people's money'?
> 
> Sorry Sam, can't answer that.
> I'm pretty sure most potential answers would be highly offensive in one way or another.


Politician, entrepreneur, manager, fund manager, thief, mooch ... only some of these are offensive.  Admitting that politicians and entrepreneurs mostly spend other people's money might cause a stir in some circles, but successfully running a business or polity typically involves more money than almost any personal treasury.  Sure, some businesses are started with personal funds in a garage, but to get the impressive growth seen by things like Facebook or Google required significant outside investment.  I vaguely remember seeing something that claimed that Amazon didn't make a profit in its first 10 years of operations.  Polities, on the other hand, tend to require vast cash-flows.  Sure, the occasional roman emperor could fund the army for a couple years to solidify power, but they all eventually turned to taxes to fund their governance.  While some forms of government don't have any distinction between the ruler and the government, most modern countries take a very dim view to rulers treating the public treasury as a personal bank account.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

Looks like we've got a robot pretending to be nonsentient in order to get a job.

----------


## theangelJean

> Looks like we've got a robot pretending to be nonsentient in order to get a job.


I wonder if it gets paid?

----------


## Rockphed

> I wonder if it gets paid?


Well, it hasn't yelled "DOGGY" yet, so I doubt it is connected to the net.

----------


## Rakaydos

> Well, it hasn't yelled "DOGGY" yet, so I doubt it is connected to the net.


Other way around. Bowman Robots who have not encountered a Bowman Wolf have the Doggy responce. However, Florince was over the news lately, so this one is probably innoculated via media exposure.

----------


## Rockphed

> Other way around. Bowman Robots who have not encountered a Bowman Wolf have the Doggy responce. However, Florince was over the news lately, so this one is probably innoculated via media exposure.


Yelling "Doggy" is a greeting.

----------


## Rakaydos

> Yelling "Doggy" is a greeting.


Automatic responce:
http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff100/fv00008.htm
http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff200/fv00119.htm
http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff400/fv00313.htm (Notably, DVORAC is able to delay and modify the responce)
http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff600/fv00548.htm is the 4th robot to have the same responce. the "greeting procedure" comes from http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff500/fv00402.htm\

Edit: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff700/fv00652.htm
Edit, with reverb: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff700/fv00675.htm (and another involuntary response a few pages later, ruining an air of smug superiority)

Notably, the ships computer is NOT a Bowman model, and so never gives a doggy responce. same with this fellow: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff800/fv00724.htm

Edit: I think this one makes my point clearer: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff400/fv00394.htm

Edit: More rereading when I should be working turned this up: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff600/fv00559.htm

----------


## Rockphed

My point was that they only do it in person. They might do it over a video link, but I doubt that they will do it just from seeing an image of Florence.

Are you trying to say something about robots seeing Florence as a person? You have links to a couple comics where robots mention that Florence is a person to them, but I don't see any text in your posts about it. I think Dr Bowman asking Florence if he is human is another datum in that line of inquiry.

And I try not to reread Freefall too often since it is very addictive. I think there is a page that auto loads all the comics to cut down on loading times, but it would still take a while to read. Not quite as long as Schlock, but a while nonetheless.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

In this case thinking like Sam might not be a bad idea, Florence.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Radar

Also a _The Mitchells vs The Machines_ reference. I also agree that having an emergency hiding spot might be a good self-preservence habit - especially considering what Florence has already been through.

----------


## Rakaydos

> My point was that they only do it in person. They might do it over a video link, but I doubt that they will do it just from seeing an image of Florence.
> 
> Are you trying to say something about robots seeing Florence as a person? You have links to a couple comics where robots mention that Florence is a person to them, but I don't see any text in your posts about it. I think Dr Bowman asking Florence if he is human is another datum in that line of inquiry.
> 
> And I try not to reread Freefall too often since it is very addictive. I think there is a page that auto loads all the comics to cut down on loading times, but it would still take a while to read. Not quite as long as Schlock, but a while nonetheless.


I didnt reread up to that point, but I distinctly remember Clippy having a "doggy" reaction when reviewing what went wrong with Gardener in the Dark, before deciding to get Florence's head examined.

----------


## Rockphed

> I didnt reread up to that point, but I distinctly remember Clippy having a "doggy" reaction when reviewing what went wrong with Gardener in the Dark, before deciding to get Florence's head examined.


I just looked through all the parts with Clippy between midnight and him abducting Florence and I don't see a "doggy" anywhere.  I might have missed it.

As for today's comic, having hiding spots is always useful.  Sometimes it is crucial.

----------


## Rakaydos

> I just looked through all the parts with Clippy between midnight and him abducting Florence and I don't see a "doggy" anywhere.  I might have missed it.
> 
> As for today's comic, having hiding spots is always useful.  Sometimes it is crucial.


http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2100/fc02070.htm

So, a bit earlier than I remembered.

----------


## Rockphed

Okay, that blows that theory out of the water.  On the other hand I am surprised by how many of Helix's early actions made their way into the meme pool.  You mentioned Tangent wanting to rub Florence's belly?  Well Helix actually did it.

----------


## Kantaki

"You can be part of humanity without being human."
If only everyone was this inclusive...

----------


## Willie the Duck

Sam has gotten frighteningly good at recognizing corporate missteps in a very short amount of time/training. He's in no way wrong, but it's also kind of a, 'right, but how do you know that?' moment.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Sam has gotten frighteningly good at recognizing corporate missteps in a very short amount of time/training. He's in no way wrong, but it's also kind of a, 'right, but how do you know that?' moment.


Sam is an _excellent_ thief.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Sam is an _excellent_ thief.


And an excellent Rules Lawyer.

"This is perfectly legal to do!"

"But ... the law wasn't intended to be used that way."

"BUT!  It's still legal.  Intent is one thing; what it actually SAYS is another."

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> And an excellent Rules Lawyer.


Yep. I'm delighted by Sam finding accounting an inspiration and resource to improve as a thief.

----------


## Kornaki

In defense of the station manager, I have heard some horror stories about centralized warehouse management lighting more money on fire than it would cost to just buy everything again new.

----------


## Thomas Cardew

I get the intent is to portray management as useless and out of touch here, but most of these changes aren't necessarily bad. Training departments ARE redundant, the majority of the training you receive can/should be handle in department. Extending maintenance could be the right choice given that station just experienced a drastic reduction in use/ performed work. Equipment wears out less quickly when it is not being used as frequently. Reducing staff is appropriate if the problem was 'we have too much work that needs to be done simultaneously' and the workload has dropped sufficiently that you have enough time to space things out. 

Becoming a leaner organization is not a bad thing. Now bring me the forms I have to fill out to have her taken away.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> In defense of the station manager, I have heard some horror stories about centralized warehouse management lighting more money on fire than it would cost to just buy everything again new.





> I get the intent is to portray management as useless and out of touch here, but most of these changes aren't necessarily bad. Training departments ARE redundant, the majority of the training you receive can/should be handle in department. Extending maintenance could be the right choice given that station just experienced a drastic reduction in use/ performed work. Equipment wears out less quickly when it is not being used as frequently. Reducing staff is appropriate if the problem was 'we have too much work that needs to be done simultaneously' and the workload has dropped sufficiently that you have enough time to space things out. 
> 
> Becoming a leaner organization is not a bad thing. Now bring me the forms I have to fill out to have her taken away.


It's almost like running a business is an intricate and challenging endeavor where situational factors play a huge role and there is no one perfunctory solution to all problems. 

I get it. This part of the strip is a combination of early _Dilbert_* and _A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court_**. It's not at all an unreasonable power fantasy for a nuclear engineer turned comic artist. Doesn't work as great for someone who spends their work day doing the station manager's job and managing several self-styled geniuses who would identify with Sam (and to their credit, are quite brilliant, even if they too don't have simple solutions to institutional problems that management somehow didn't realize). Overall, I kinda dig the way this is going, so long as I recognize that the station manager, like Kornada and the robot antagonists, is significantly more of a cartoon than Florence and Winston and his family and such (and deliberately so). That said, to me it is something of a wasted opportunity in that a 'dwindling factory town' in space would be a wonderful venue for a no-specific-antagonist storyline -- things _are_ being run well, but there simply isn't enough business to support everyone present who wants employment, how do the plucky protagonists turn around the town's dire straights?
_*where a cagy and underappreciated engineer is smarter at running a business than the incompetent managers and executives above him, and has to watch the operation veer close to total collapse because people didn't recognize his brilliance.
**where a charismatic genius finds themselves in a court of fools and actually gets to solve everything by dropping some mad brilliance upon them._

----------


## Rakaydos

> That said, to me it is something of a wasted opportunity in that a 'dwindling factory town' in space would be a wonderful venue for a no-specific-antagonist storyline -- things _are_ being run well, but there simply isn't enough business to support everyone present who wants employment, how do the plucky protagonists turn around the town's dire straights?


To be fair, this storyline led up with "The station is costing more to run than it should." The situation you describe is entirely predictable, and should not meet that restriction.

Now, I need to resist the urge to reread the entire story arc, while at work.

----------


## Thomas Cardew

> It's not at all an unreasonable power fantasy for a nuclear engineer turned comic artist. Doesn't work as great for someone who spends their work day doing the station manager's job and managing several self-styled geniuses who would identify with Sam (and to their credit, are quite brilliant, even if they too don't have simple solutions to institutional problems that management somehow didn't realize).


That's part of why it rings false for me at the moment. As a current nuclear engineer, part of my fantasy is to no longer have to waste time in corporate mandated trainings that exist only to (A) protect the company from a potential lawsuit not to convey useful information (B) prove that the training department is doing something.

Signed as someone who had to take a 'lead safety' training session which took a minimum of 3 hours to complete and boiled down to : 'Lead is heavy, don't move more than 1 brick at a time. Lead is toxic, don't lick the bricks. Wear gloves while handling. Wash your hands after handling the bricks. Or looking at the bricks. Or thinking about the bricks. In fact, just go wash your hands now.'

----------


## sihnfahl

> Now, I need to resist the urge to reread the entire story arc, while at work.


Short summary...

Moon transfer reduced traffic to station, so less income.

Management starts cost cutting measures to reduce expenditures.

Missteps along the way result in needed maintenance being not done, cargo airlocks unavailable, leaking pipes, messages being sent to positions are being deleted instead of forwarded to the person who has the responsibility now, double shipments of materials (because for some reason they can't get the company that double-shipped and double-billed to pay the return shipping costs), multiple systems offline and the power 'tagged out'....

In addition, the station manager even admitted he was 'encouraging' people to leave their positions so he could replace them with robots (who don't have the expense of food, water and air).  However, the existing engineers refuse to leave and give up their position unless the robots are paid the same as they are (which would include the food, water and air allowances).  Not to mention they weren't doing regular preventive maintenance since the job of fixing various things were outsourced... and the outsourcers stopped working because it was taking -forever- to get paid!

----------


## Radar

> Sam is an _excellent_ thief.


And advocates sustainable theft. Understanding that requires at least some knowledge of how a business is run. Otherwise you cannot estimate how much you can safely steal.

Besides, Sam being good at understanding financial scams and schemes is nothing new. After all, he was the one that realized, what was Kornada's plan (technically Clippy's). He was reading up on financial scams for a long time. After the accounting class, he simply has a more detailed knowledge, which gives him better judgment of where the problems are.

----------


## Ibrinar

Oh is he hoping for it to fail so it drives humans from the station and he can just get robots? Would just need a way for him to survive himself.

----------


## Rakaydos

> Oh is he hoping for it to fail so it drives humans from the station and he can just get robots? Would just need a way for him to survive himself.


He might not have connected that dot to his spreadsheet yet.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Oh is he hoping for it to fail so it drives humans from the station and he can just get robots? Would just need a way for him to survive himself.


Only certain humans!  Any easily automatable task that's handled by humans can presumably be handled by intelligent robots.

However, the things that require 'a human touch', will remain.

He'll only shut down life support in the areas where only robots will operate (docks during loading/unloading, maintenance areas / corridors, etc).  All human-occupied areas will retain life support (residences, hydroponics, the central mall, administration), but they won't need as much as now because there will be fewer humans to supply.

----------


## Radar

> Oh is he hoping for it to fail so it drives humans from the station and he can just get robots? Would just need a way for him to survive himself.


I think he is hoping that humans will be driven away before the station fails beyond repair.

----------


## Rakaydos

Methinks this arc will climax with Sam directing a mob to chase SOMEONE ELSE, and it will be a character moment for him.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Oh is he hoping for it to fail so it drives humans from the station and he can just get robots? Would just need a way for him to survive himself.





> He might not have connected that dot to his spreadsheet yet.


_"Shouldn't be a problem! I expect the LS failure to occur without any loss of life. After all, we do extensive emergency protocol traini...<checks leger> uh-oh!"_

----------


## Rockphed

> That's part of why it rings false for me at the moment. As a current nuclear engineer, part of my fantasy is to no longer have to waste time in corporate mandated trainings that exist only to (A) protect the company from a potential lawsuit not to convey useful information (B) prove that the training department is doing something.
> 
> Signed as someone who had to take a 'lead safety' training session which took a minimum of 3 hours to complete and boiled down to : 'Lead is heavy, don't move more than 1 brick at a time. Lead is toxic, don't lick the bricks. Wear gloves while handling. Wash your hands after handling the bricks. Or looking at the bricks. Or thinking about the bricks. In fact, just go wash your hands now.'


I think you are saying that this guy is doing what most sensible workers wish they could do. I know i have said things like "why do I have to take the stupid training every three months". My stupid training was only 15 minutes each time, and we charged if to the customer who mandated the training, but it was still stupid.

Mr Mushroom is making me think of engineers who think they know how to play the market because they understand numbers. They tend to end up broke and confused.

----------


## Thomas Cardew

> I think you are saying that this guy is doing what most sensible workers wish they could do. I know i have said things like "why do I have to take the stupid training every three months". My stupid training was only 15 minutes each time, and we charged if to the customer who mandated the training, but it was still stupid.
> 
> Mr Mushroom is making me think of engineers who think they know how to play the market because they understand numbers. They tend to end up broke and confused.


Yes. I understand that his point is management is out of touch and making poor decisions. BUT, I find his examples poor and ill-fitting with my personal experience in the author's prior field. The organizations I've worked at that failed the Amazon test WERE the ones with dedicated procurement departments. The ones that provided the most time-consuming and useless trainings WERE the ones with dedicated training departments under HR. And I've tossed plenty of perfectly good (insert maintenance part here) because the regs say we place this every 12 months instead of every X operating hours. 

Depending on when in my career I was writing a work power-fantasy comic, the evil incompetent manager would not necessarily be the one cutting bureaucratic positions and removing petty tyrants. It would be the "safety culture" slogan spewing manager who has realized that best way to ensure there is never an accident is to prevent anyone from doing actual work by wasting their time with constant mandatory reviews and training sessions.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> Yes. I understand that his point is management is out of touch and making poor decisions. BUT, I find his examples poor and ill-fitting with my personal experience in the author's prior field...
> 
> Depending on when in my career I was writing a work power-fantasy comic, the evil incompetent manager would not necessarily be the one cutting bureaucratic positions and removing petty tyrants. It would be the "safety culture" slogan spewing manager who has realized that best way to ensure there is never an accident is to prevent anyone from doing actual work by wasting their time with constant mandatory reviews and training sessions.


You can err in both directions. Freefall draws on decades of Peterson's experience as an engineer, so I'm guessing he saw more waste due to spurious downsizing than waste due to redundant positions and/or excessive oversight. If he had gone to work for a different company we might have seen the antagonists you're familiar with.

----------


## Fyraltari

I mean, that checks out.

----------


## Kantaki

You know, the words "everything is fine. No one is in danger" usually translate to "time to run away screaming passed ten minutes ago", but I'm sure this guy is highly capable and knows what he is doing.

On a unrelated note, where's the escape pods?  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## sihnfahl

> On a unrelated note, where's the escape pods?


At the shop, awaiting repairs that won't be done until the administrator pays for them up front.

Which will be sometime next year.

After all, he has his own private shuttle out.

----------


## Rakaydos

> At the shop, awaiting repairs that won't be done until the administrator pays for them up front.
> 
> Which will be sometime next year.
> 
> After all, he has his own private shuttle out.


...and who's in charge of maintaining that private shuttle, and how well has he been treated in this debacle?

----------


## Fyraltari

> At the shop, awaiting repairs that won't be done until the administrator pays for them up front.
> 
> Which will be sometime next year.
> 
> After all, he has his own private shuttle out.





> ...and who's in charge of maintaining that private shuttle, and how well has he been treated in this debacle?


You guys make me wanna play _Prey_ again.

----------


## sihnfahl

> ...and who's in charge of maintaining that private shuttle, and how well has he been treated in this debacle?


A robot specifically trained so, and when it comes to your own safety, there's no cost you won't get your employer to fork over.

Even if they don't know they're paying for it.

----------


## Rakaydos

> A robot specifically trained so, and when it comes to your own safety, there's no cost you won't get your employer to fork over.
> 
> Even if they don't know they're paying for it.


What's the Union got to say about that?

----------


## sihnfahl

> What's the Union got to say about that?


What makes you think the Union knows?

----------


## Gez

He wants to replace the human workers with robots, the Union is trying to prevent that by demanding equal pay for robots, he retaliates by making the job miserable and the pay late so that human workers work less, the result is that the station becomes less and less functional to the point where life support systems may fail. And that's part of his plan.

Why?

Because life support failure would be a threat to the lives of the humans on board. And robots are programmed to act when human lives are threatened. And we know, and De Morel presumably also knows, that there are robots on the station, hiding from the workers. Basically, it's a blackmail. He's letting the situation rot until robots arrive to work for free, and the human workers will have to let the robots work for free because it's either that or risking death. And then he'll have replaced the workers with robots, without having to pay them.

The hydroponics may have been a proof of concept for the whole scheme. The plants were dying, a robot volunteered to do the work, without getting paid for it.

----------


## lord_khaine

So.. making the prediction now. Sam will end as replacement manager.
The next chapters will take place as he tries to get the station running again.

----------


## Kantaki

> He wants to replace the human workers with robots, the Union is trying to prevent that by demanding equal pay for robots, he retaliates by making the job miserable and the pay late so that human workers work less, the result is that the station becomes less and less functional to the point where life support systems may fail. And that's part of his plan.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because life support failure would be a threat to the lives of the humans on board. And robots are programmed to act when human lives are threatened. And we know, and De Morel presumably also knows, that there are robots on the station, hiding from the workers. Basically, it's a blackmail. He's letting the situation rot until robots arrive to work for free, and the human workers will have to let the robots work for free because it's either that or risking death. And then he'll have replaced the workers with robots, without having to pay them.
> 
> The hydroponics may have been a proof of concept for the whole scheme. The plants were dying, a robot volunteered to do the work, without getting paid for it.


Sounds like the kind of plan where you loose your head. Err... hat.
Though I guess the former works too. Always weird when a typo's still right. :Small Amused: 




> So.. making the prediction now. Sam will end as replacement manager.
> The next chapters will take place as he tries to get the station running again.


Don't you mean "as he tries running _from_ the station"? :Small Tongue:

----------


## halfeye

> So.. making the prediction now. Sam will end as replacement manager.
> The next chapters will take place as he tries to get the station running again.


I'm fairly sure that won't happen. Sam is a continuing character, and being stuck out in space wouldn't suit his role.

----------


## theangelJean

> I'm fairly sure that won't happen. Sam is a continuing character, and being stuck out in space wouldn't suit his role.


I dunno. The story is _about_  Sam (and Florence, and Helix). Florence is having a station-based story arc, and the robots wanting to build her (and themselves) a ship ties into that. Helix is happy where Sam is. And what more does Sam need than people to annoy and steal from, long corridors for being chased, and interesting terrain to be chased through? (And ice cream.) Looks like the station has all of those, plus a mystery to solve. What's the downside?

----------


## Radar

> He wants to replace the human workers with robots, the Union is trying to prevent that by demanding equal pay for robots, he retaliates by making the job miserable and the pay late so that human workers work less, the result is that the station becomes less and less functional to the point where life support systems may fail. And that's part of his plan.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because life support failure would be a threat to the lives of the humans on board. And robots are programmed to act when human lives are threatened. And we know, and De Morel presumably also knows, that there are robots on the station, hiding from the workers. Basically, it's a blackmail. He's letting the situation rot until robots arrive to work for free, and the human workers will have to let the robots work for free because it's either that or risking death. And then he'll have replaced the workers with robots, without having to pay them.
> 
> The hydroponics may have been a proof of concept for the whole scheme. The plants were dying, a robot volunteered to do the work, without getting paid for it.


You might be right on the money here. This is the best case ruthless savings scenario for him. It also has a significant risk of blowing up in his face.

The space station has some owner (most likely Ecosystems Unlimited) and their reaction to the state of the station might be also important in how things would unfold. Since the station served its main purpose already, it might be of little value to the corporation, so when they see it in a run-down state and poor finances, they might opt to sell it off cheaply as a liability. The manager might be aiming to buy it off of them. If on the other hand they still have plans for the station, they might simply kick out the manager and put someone else in place before his plan to replace everyone with pay-less robots kicks in fully.

Sam was hired to investigate unusually high maintenance costs of the station, so whoever owns the station, is still interested in how it is run.


Also, I wanted to comment that being aware of ones own limitations and actually listen to experts is remarkably smart if you compare to many people who should never be given managerial positions.

edit: As I read the archives, it seems it's the station manager who asked for the costs investigation.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Sam was hired to investigate unusually high maintenance costs of the station, so whoever owns the station, is still interested in how it is run.


That in turn is the reason for the theory about spending some more time at the station. 
It seems clear the current manager is going to be replaced. 

Likely by evidence Sam uncover. In turn proving his own fitness for the position.

----------


## Radar

> That in turn is the reason for the theory about spending some more time at the station. 
> It seems clear the current manager is going to be replaced. 
> 
> Likely by evidence Sam uncover. In turn proving his own fitness for the position.


Being a good auditor does not translate to being a good manager - the required skillset is different. There is also the fact, that Sam most likely would not want to be in a position of authority as this kind of responsibility would detract him from his usual antics.

----------


## Fyraltari

Is it really that easy?

----------


## Radar

> Is it really that easy?


First, you have to know about this trick. Second of: you have to be *helping Sam*. For many people this would be too difficult to stomach. In many other situations, it might not be easy to find something to help Sam with. The workshop manager was lucky that Sam actually wanted something from him.

----------


## Rakaydos

Looks like we may have a candidate for next station administrator?

----------


## Radar

That maintenance shop manager makes a very good point that is actually reinforced by what we have seen about motoric abilities of the robots: stairs, jumping.

----------


## Pax1138

And about the people who design everything.  As a computer repair person, I don't know how many times the tear down procedures for a given device have made me want to throttle the person who designed it.

----------


## Radar

> And about the people who design everything.  As a computer repair person, I don't know how many times the tear down procedures for a given device have made me want to throttle the person who designed it.


At least you do not have it as bad as car mechanics. Changing a lightbulb should be a simple task anyone could do on a roadside, right?

I assume that the teardown procedure is often an afterthought once the design is mostly already decided based on other factors.

----------


## Rockphed

> And about the people who design everything.  As a computer repair person, I don't know how many times the tear down procedures for a given device have made me want to throttle the person who designed it.


In theory a well designed piece of electronics does not need to be taken apart.  I remember a story from school about how TVs used to have easily accessible hardware.  Then somebody designed a solid state TV tuner and put it in a TV such that it was impossible to repair.  People were a bit leary until they heard that the TV never needed repair.

That said, computers do tend to have ongoing maintenance and upgrade cycles that require access to various internal parts.  It is nice when the process is "remove cover to access part" instead of "remove the keyboard and motherboard to access part".

----------


## Radar

> In theory a well designed piece of electronics does not need to be taken apart.  I remember a story from school about how TVs used to have easily accessible hardware.  Then somebody designed a solid state TV tuner and put it in a TV such that it was impossible to repair.  People were a bit leary until they heard that the TV never needed repair.
> 
> That said, computers do tend to have ongoing maintenance and upgrade cycles that require access to various internal parts.  It is nice when the process is "remove cover to access part" instead of "remove the keyboard and motherboard to access part".


This actually reminds me how I was searching information on replacing broken keys (as in the actual piece detecting that you push the key - not the external piece of plastic) in my previous laptop: You have to pull all the hardware from the laptop to even get to the keyboard, which is basically a piece of foil with some electronics on it. Getting it out and putting a new one is too much of an ordeal to consider for me - there are external keyboards, they work, end of problem.

----------


## hajo

> In theory a well designed piece of electronics does not need to be taken apart.  
> I remember a story from school about how TVs used to have easily accessible hardware.


For my previous laptop, I looked up the procedure for changing that small battery for RTC and bios-settings.
About 3/4 of the laptop had to be taken appart, just to get at that battery  :Small Frown: 




> It is nice when the process is "remove cover to access part" instead of "remove the keyboard and motherboard to access part".


Devices a few years ago had such a small cover at the location of that battery  :Small Sigh:

----------


## Fyraltari

Wait, if the station was built specifically for the moon project, how was that project it's "main source of income" why is the station making money at all, instead of simply being an expenditure for that project?

And maybe, if it's no longer needed and may not be viable any more, just scrap it?

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Wait, if the station was built specifically for the moon project, how was that project it's "main source of income" why is the station making money at all, instead of simply being an expenditure for that project?


Independent contractor.




> And maybe, if it's no longer needed and may not be viable any more, just scrap it?


Someone call Larry the Liquidator. 

Seriously, that's a question any struggling business should at least quietly ask. I guess the question becomes, what exactly do they do out here now, and if they just shuttered themselves, who would suffer -- and/or would something else (perhaps more fly-by-night or expensive) spring up to service such and such an industry.

To be honest, I'm a little unclear on what industries exist in this universe. There appears to be terraforming interests, an AI company Florence wants to convince not to let her species disappear,... and then bakers and mayors and ice cream venders and so on that Sam gets to chase him. The in-between stuff is kind of not well fleshed out.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Independent contractor.


But there wasn't a station to contract to.




> Seriously, that's a question any struggling business should at least quietly ask. I guess the question becomes, what exactly do they do out here now, and if they just shuttered themselves, who would suffer -- and/or would something else (perhaps more fly-by-night or expensive) spring up to service such and such an industry.


What bugs me is that this problem should have been obvious frol day one. Either they thought they'd be more business opportunity in space that could fill the gap.(and in that case why were they wrong?) or the people who decided to have this thing built are very myopic in their planning.

I think this would have made more sense if the station had been a pre-existing thing that had a sudden influx of money thanks to the moon project and is now struggling to get back to its original economy.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> But there wasn't a station to contract to.


I think an independent contractor bid on the task of supplying a necessary space station to the terraforming project.




> What bugs me is that this problem should have been obvious frol day one. Either they thought they'd be more business opportunity in space that could fill the gap.(and in that case why were they wrong?) or the people who decided to have this thing built are very myopic in their planning.
> 
> I think this would have made more sense if the station had been a pre-existing thing that had a sudden influx of money thanks to the moon project and is now struggling to get back to its original economy.


I think that could be an interesting story. The core of this story is 'company town struggles after business dries up (and company that wants to turn a profit isn't wholly a bad guys here,' but to me it also resonates strongly as a 'boom town still exists after the gold/oil runs dry, and needs to figure out what to do next' story. In that story, that the role of the station was going to end _was_ obvious from day one, and the people that built the thing knew it. No myopathymyopia necessary -- the planners saw the end of the money times, it's just that now there are a bunch (few? some?) people still there that don't want to move away* that would really like to keep the thing going (somehow). That undoubtedly fell into the planner's 'not my problem' bin. 
_*Although, honestly, why not?_

----------


## sihnfahl

> Wait, if the station was built specifically for the moon project, how was that project it's "main source of income" why is the station making money at all, instead of simply being an expenditure for that project?


All the associated services and manpower beyond what Ecosystems has on the expense table.

The ancillaries that go along with it.  For example, what is the likelihood that 'trade for spices' on the line item budget?

Then there's the settlers around the station that use it as a transfer point.




> it's just that now there are a bunch (few? some?) people still there that don't want to move away* that would really like to keep the thing going (somehow). That undoubtedly fell into the planner's 'not my problem' bin. 
> _*Although, honestly, why not?_


Adventurers, folks who like pushing the boundaries, folks who don't want to be around other people...

----------


## Radar

> Then there's the settlers around the station that use it as a transfer point.


Which might be a piece of a solution. Currently there are not that many settlers as deep space or even an asteroid field are not exactly human-friendly environments. Robots on the other hand might be fine out there and with them becoming citizens, some might want to go out to explore the local star system and start building infrastructure around it.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Which might be a piece of a solution. Currently there are not that many settlers as deep space or even an asteroid field are not exactly human-friendly environments. Robots on the other hand might be fine out there and with them becoming citizens, some might want to go out to explore the local star system and start building infrastructure around it.


Well, they could work on infrastructure for gathering asteroids for mining, much like the comets that have been collected for water.

Also, this page.

----------


## Gez

> No myopathy necessary


Do not confuse myopia with myopathy!
 :Small Eek:

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Do not confuse myopia with myopathy!


What's amazing is that that was an autocorrupt, and I can't believe that my browser considered myopathy a more prevalent word so as to suggest it.  :Small Tongue:  
Will change.

----------


## Kornaki

It seems pretty short sighted to not think when the inspectors show up they might tell the station to use robots to fix everything faster.

Alternatively, his whole plan is just to force the workers to fix his toilet.

----------


## Fyraltari

No hot water doesn't seem so bad when the living quarters are stuck at 30°C.

----------


## halfeye

> No hot water doesn't seem so bad when the living quarters are stuck at 30°C.


It doesn't work out, the water from the mains gets there quite quickly and is at mains temperature, if the rest of the station is at 20 degrees it'll be that, it can't be below freezing or the pipes would burst, but it could be anything above zero C.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> It doesn't work out, the water from the mains gets there quite quickly and is at mains temperature, if the rest of the station is at 20 degrees it'll be that, it can't be below freezing or the pipes would burst, but it could be anything above zero C.


I think their point was that cold showers wouldn't be awful if you've been sweating since you got home from work.

----------


## Kantaki

Coming from Sam that payment plan sounds kinda like some kinda con.

Oh well, biggest downside I see is that it'd force that manager guy to pay any robot workers.
So, not a downside at all. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Fyraltari

NFTs are still around in the future? Goddammit!

----------


## Rockphed

> Coming from Sam that payment plan sounds kinda like some kinda con.
> 
> Oh well, biggest downside I see is that it'd force that manager guy to pay any robot workers.
> So, not a downside at all.


It is my belief that anything involving NFTs is a con.

----------


## Radar

> It is my belief that anything involving NFTs is a con.


The way I see it, it seems to be a system playing at human's desire to own something exclusive. Even before the internet there were collectors, who bought for example art only to simply be the ones that have it. Collecting stamps, action figures or rare comic books is the same thing. NFT is this kind of desire distilled to the purest form - you can claim ownership of something without being able to do anything with that something. Most people will not care about it, but there are individuals for whom this is precisely what they want.

----------


## Willie the Duck

Pull out the current era of overinflated expectations, scams on people who don't understand the things but think they are the next big thing you have to get on board with, and just in general the people that have made crypto a lifestyle, NFTs are just another collectable. Long before either, there are more people who lost money collecting Beanie Babies or variant comic book covers in the 90s (or speculated in gold futures) than those who kept the alpha black lotuses until they cost a new car's worth or bought Apple stock right before the iPod brought the company back up, etc.. I imagine that in a future with multiple star systems but little interplanetary travel, a lot of collectables would be in NFT form. One thing that is for sure is that the fad would have had to have ended by then, so Florence's card would have to stand on its own merits as collector-desirable, and we haven't seen reason to think so (excepting if the robots do it out of adoration).

One thing I'm hoping this isn't going to turn into is a webcomic author-tract on NFTs.

----------


## GeoffWatson

> The way I see it, it seems to be a system playing at human's desire to own something exclusive. Even before the internet there were collectors, who bought for example art only to simply be the ones that have it. Collecting stamps, action figures or rare comic books is the same thing. NFT is this kind of desire distilled to the purest form - you can claim ownership of something without being able to do anything with that something. Most people will not care about it, but there are individuals for whom this is precisely what they want.


But NFTs are not exclusive.
There's nothing stopping a NFT seller from selling another NFT for the same link.

99% of NFTs are scams.

----------


## Kantaki

> One thing that is for sure is that the fad would have had to have ended by then, so Florence's card would have to stand on its own merits as collector-desirable, and we haven't seen reason to think so (excepting if the robots do it out of adoration)


I dunno, first union membership of an AI?
Sounds unique enough to be worth quite a bit to someone.
Certainly not the silliest thing people spent money on.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I dunno, first union membership of an AI?
> Sounds unique enough to be worth quite a bit to someone.
> Certainly not the silliest thing people spent money on.


It is within the boundaries of non-silly conceivable, but I still would want more in-comic-universe worldbuilding establishing that everyone is watching this development with AIs as a moment in history. Also, if so, that other people on Jean aren't also going around being the first to give an AI a non-union paycheck, a receipt for purchasing their own body, a birth certificate, their own monogrammed sweater, and a bunch of other firsts surrounding this moment in time. 

I guess this also hinges on how much salary we are talking about.

----------


## TaRix

I fear for Sam's safety with this idea, yet I cannot turn away.

----------


## Rockphed

> I fear for Sam's safety with this idea, yet I cannot turn away.


Looking away is how he gets close enough for the san damage to be permanent.

----------


## Radar

> I fear for Sam's safety with this idea, yet I cannot turn away.


Sam's safety? I'd rather think of all the other people on the station. In a different setting such sanity destroying incident would induce a temper tantrum spiral over the whole station.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

I don't think I like Tess' idea of "fixing" things.
On the plus side it can only get worse. :Small Amused:

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

So we do have literal steam cens(o/e)rs. Nicely played.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> So we do have literal steam cens(o/e)rs. Nicely played.


Also, checking out the background shot, picnic/conference tables, beach chairs, an elevated (I assume) hot tub (looks to be a full flight of stairs up), and blimps (what kind of ceiling height are we talking about?). This is some swanky digs for a space station where (I assume) space is at a premium and everything has to be shipped in from somewhere else.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Also, checking out the background shot, picnic/conference tables, beach chairs, an elevated (I assume) hot tub (looks to be a full flight of stairs up), and blimps (what kind of ceiling height are we talking about?). This is some swanky digs for a space station where (I assume) space is at a premium and everything has to be shipped in from somewhere else.


I think the blimps aren't vehicles, probably some sort of drones (toys maybe?) But yeah, this looks like a ten-twelve-meter high ceiling, which is incredibly wateful on a space station. Or maybe it's the perspective being wonky.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I think the blimps aren't vehicles, probably some sort of drones (toys maybe?) But yeah, this looks like a ten-twelve-meter high ceiling, which is incredibly wateful on a space station. Or maybe it's the perspective being wonky.


Oh, yes. I didn't mean vehicular blimps. I think they are beach-ball to vaguely larger sized (hard to tell, as two of them are the same size, despite one looking to be significantly farther away from the frame of reference). 

_Freefall_, for all it's relative realism, definitely does hew towards the 'convenient to film' hallways of a Star Trek show or 'they keep talking about every cubic meter being precious and things are hard to get, but they mostly show this by a side character getting booted to a smaller (single person) apartment or it being tough to get fresh eggs' setup that Babylon 5 had. Realistic space adventures would be cramped and boring. I understand why the realism line was cut where it was.

Even then, this kind telegraphs that this place is a decided luxury. Perhaps part of the initial station design, being deemed necessary to keep an isolated population in good spirits/morale/mental health.

----------


## Gez

> Even then, this kind telegraphs that this place is a decided luxury. Perhaps part of the initial station design, being deemed necessary to keep an isolated population in good spirits/morale/mental health.


Alternatively, this was storage space for reaction mass or something like that, that the end of the moon transfer operation has made unnecessary, so it has been reclaimed as a spa.

----------


## theangelJean

> Oh, yes. I didn't mean vehicular blimps. I think they are beach-ball to vaguely larger sized (hard to tell, as two of them are the same size, despite one looking to be significantly farther away from the frame of reference).


I wonder if they're actually at the same distance from the viewer, but at different heights. You can see the shadow of one nearby, but not the other.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

 :Small Eek: And it got worse...  :Small Eek: 

Eh, "normal" is just another word for boring anyway. :Small Amused:

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Alternatively, this was storage space for reaction mass or something like that, that the end of the moon transfer operation has made unnecessary, so it has been reclaimed as a spa.


A reasonable guess. My only issues with that are that 1) they bothered to put it into the rotating habitation section, and 2) I would expect them to put support pillars and the like in the middle of such a room (aside from just a lot of space, this spot takes a lot of structural enhancement around it to let it be this big and open). 




> New comic
> And it got worse...


That's a strange way to spell 'better.' :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Radar

> A reasonable guess. My only issues with that are that 1) they bothered to put it into the rotating habitation section, and 2) I would expect them to put support pillars and the like in the middle of such a room (aside from just a lot of space, this spot takes a lot of structural enhancement around it to let it be this big and open).


It did not have to be for reaction mass - it could have been any other storage. There is also a possibility that this was meant to be recreation area from the very beginning. We are talking about a really big space station designed for semi-permanent stay of the crew. If you consider that humanity is at a point, where they can easily extract resources from asteroids and such, so making the station big enough to have room for non-essentials is not as big of a cost as it would be for us right now.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> It did not have to be for reaction mass - it could have been any other storage. There is also a possibility that this was meant to be recreation area from the very beginning. We are talking about a really big space station designed for semi-permanent stay of the crew. If you consider that humanity is at a point, where they can easily extract resources from asteroids and such, so making the station big enough to have room for non-essentials is not as big of a cost as it would be for us right now.


Well, yes, that was sort of my point above. I guess I framed it as realism, and I realism kinda is an open question for societies which can move moons. My overall point is that Stanley puts effort into focusing on realism as we know if for things like radiation exposure in space, muscle degradation/bone decalcification in microgravity, etc., but then shifts to rule-of-cool OR I guess 'they are so advanced this is the new realistic.' Either way I think we're on the same basic page.

----------


## Kantaki

"You never want to stuff rotten apples into your brain"

Err, that's generally a good idea, yes.

----------


## sihnfahl

> "You never want to stuff rotten apples into your brain"


Or a rancid fish.

I thought I'd never get rid of that rancid fish.

----------


## Fyraltari

Okay, but last sentence is the best argument _against_ transhumanism I have ever heard.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Okay, but last sentence is the best argument _against_ transhumanism I have ever heard.


Yeah why standardize when you simply make a robot intelligent enough to customize the cybernetics to everyone's brains within less than a second? and yeah uh, McDonalds is not a good way to compare anything.

----------


## Kantaki

I'm pretty sure that's how the Borg started.
Only worse.
We like being an individuum. :Small Tongue:

----------


## Fyraltari

> Yeah why standardize when you simply make a robot intelligent enough to customize the cybernetics to everyone's brains within less than a second? and yeah uh, McDonalds is not a good way to compare anything.


I'm genuinely confused by that simile. I got the impression that we, the readers, were meant to see theses characters' position as reasonnable, even if not necessarrily to agree with it. Are we supposed to conclude they're terribly wrong? Or does the author genuinely thinks of McDonald's "efficiency" as something to emulate?

----------


## Rockphed

McDonalds is successful because going in you know what you are supposed to get, not because they are high quality.  The transhumanists here want to have predictable outcomes.  I do, however, agree that "McDonalds" is the wrong analogy; what they want is "dental work".  Dental work is cheap because dentists do the same procedures all the time.

That said, I am not convinced that we, the readers, are supposed to see these ladies as reasonable.  Remember, one of them genetically modified her son to have no hair anywhere on his body.  Another changes her professed identity at least once a week.  Then there is the whole "lets make work a group mind" thing. If I was to assign a defining attribute to these women it would be "does not think things through all the way before starting them".

----------


## Lord Raziere

> McDonalds is successful because going in you know what you are supposed to get, not because they are high quality.  The transhumanists here want to have predictable outcomes.  I do, however, agree that "McDonalds" is the wrong analogy; what they want is "dental work".  Dental work is cheap because dentists do the same procedures all the time.
> 
> That said, I am not convinced that we, the readers, are supposed to see these ladies as reasonable.  Remember, one of them genetically modified her son to have no hair anywhere on his body.  Another changes her professed identity at least once a week.  Then there is the whole "lets make work a group mind" thing. If I was to assign a defining attribute to these women it would be "does not think things through all the way before starting them".


Yes. they seem similar in mindset to Qwerty: eager to do stuff, and ready to jump into something without thinking through the consequences, a bit eccentric and really needs a Dvorak to keep them grounded.

----------


## Gez

> Yes. they seem similar in mindset to Qwerty: eager to do stuff, and ready to jump into something without thinking through the consequences, a bit eccentric and really needs a Dvorak to keep them grounded.


That's apparently the role of Nettie, the blonde.

Tess is a militant transhumanist who wants to modify bodies like we tinker with machines. Al, to use her current identity since we don't know her "real" one, wants to treat the human mind like it's software, switching it (or so she claims) and networking it. Nettie just seems to be a nerd. She doesn't have a professed agenda, causing her friends to call her a traditionalist. But she makes technical-minded observations without much tact and is the one who brings up the problems in the others' plans.

----------


## Rockphed

Does anyone still think these ladies are supposed to be reasonable? I could write a horror story with that hook almost without needing to think.

----------


## theangelJean

Getting all the unpleasant bits of life out of the way on your "downtime" doesn't sound particularly fair to whoever is actually controlling the body while these things get done. Sounds like a class system in the making. But then I think about Freefall's AI and their eagerness to serve ... Cleaning bots enjoy their job, would "taking the body to the dentist" bots have a similar point of view?

----------


## Gez

> Does anyone still think these ladies are supposed to be reasonable? I could write a horror story with that hook almost without needing to think.


Even Nettie seems shocked, and she's been their friend for a while so you'd think she'd know about these kinds of ideas...

----------


## Ibrinar

Non sentient AI should be entirely capable of these tasks in a scifi setting, so a controller sound unnecessary. Though I suppose their more primitive AI abilities might have atrophied since they have hard AI which can do everything. Also I suppose they still have people with relatively mundane jobs.

----------


## PhantomFox

Taking bets on if Florence is going to bring up her (formerly?) hijack-able brain and all the issues it caused?

----------


## theangelJean

Nope. NDA. It all happened on EU property, so even if it wasn't covered by the final Direct Ordered NDA it was probably covered by some kind of agreement.

----------


## Fyraltari

She could bring up how every robot on the system almost got lobotomized.

----------


## PhantomFox

I gotta admit, that was a pretty good line.

----------


## Rockphed

> I gotta admit, that was a pretty good line.


Despite her mad science origin, Florence is generally pretty leery about crazy schemes. It comes of millennia of humans hunting the aggressive and daring wolves. She had the daring bred right out of her.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic




> I would be careful.
> Humans did uplift wolves. But you also turned us into dachshunds and chihuahuas.


Don't worry Florence, humans don't need robots for that.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Rockphed

> New comic
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry Florence, humans don't need robots for that.


So she was trying to say that some wolves got awesome gifts from humans, some got horrible gifts from humans.  Do you want to be one of the humans who robots uplift into a chihuahua?

Alternatively, have I misunderstood you and you are saying that some people turn themselves into chihuahuas without needing robot help?

----------


## Kantaki

> Alternatively, have I misunderstood you and you are saying that some people turn themselves into chihuahuas without needing robot help?


Pretty much, yeah.
I mean, the robots certainly help, but I don't think they'd need to actively do anything.

----------


## halfeye

> So she was trying to say that some wolves got awesome gifts from humans, some got horrible gifts from humans.  Do you want to be one of the humans who robots uplift into a chihuahua?
> 
> Alternatively, have I misunderstood you and you are saying that some people turn themselves into chihuahuas without needing robot help?





> Pretty much, yeah.
> I mean, the robots certainly help, but I don't think they'd need to actively do anything.


Dragons, Pegasii, Centaurs and Pegasii-centaurs I can see, Chihuahuas not so much.

----------


## Ibrinar

I guess being a small animal that can sit on someone's lap and get pats would be attractive to at least some people, and I guess some people actually like Chihuahuas and there might be overlap.

----------


## Kantaki

> Dragons, Pegasii, Centaurs and Pegasii-centaurs I can see, Chihuahuas not so much.


I dunno...
Small, yappy, annoying...
I can think about a few people like that. :Small Tongue: 
Some grow out of it.

But honestly? With the way we're already attached to our various devices*?
Yeah sorry, but actual AI'd have to work to prevent us from becoming the pets of our machine overlords.
They're called "smart" phones because (some of) the users aren't.

*Okay, not everyone or everywhere, but there seems to be a trend.

----------


## Rockphed

> I guess being a small animal that can sit on someone's lap and get pats would be attractive to at least some people, and I guess some people actually like Chihuahuas and there might be overlap.


I wasn't being literal about people becoming chihuahuas.  I think the Eloi from The Time Machine are a decent example of bad human development paths.

That said, aren't dachshunds ratters?  I think chihuahuas are descended from dogs raised for meat (hence their relative furlessness).

----------


## Kantaki

> I wasn't being literal about people becoming chihuahuas.  I think the Eloi from The Time Machine are a decent example of bad human development paths.
> 
> That said, aren't dachshunds ratters?


Hunting dogs. They were bred to crawl into the tunnels of game's den and drive it out, I think.
The name literally means badger dog.
That said, they _look_ like a sausage on legs. Short, stubby legs. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## halfeye

> I wasn't being literal about people becoming chihuahuas.  I think the Eloi from The Time Machine are a decent example of bad human development paths.
> 
> That said, aren't dachshunds ratters?  I think chihuahuas are descended from dogs raised for meat (hence their relative furlessness).


Full sized dachshunds were for going into badger setts and attacking the badgers, the minatures however ...

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

That spa employee is a reasonable fellow.
Totally unrealistic. :Small Annoyed:  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Pax1138

New comic

*Spoiler: Sam and lockers*
Show

Using a keychain of prosthetic fingers to bypass a scanner is genius.  I'm going to have to remember that next time my group plays Shadowrun or Cyberpunk.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic




> Rude. She walked in on me changing. I'm the one who should be screaming.


I'm pretty sure if I ran into some kind of horror from beyond the stars I'd be the one screaming too. :Small Amused: 

Also, I'm not sure the middle of the locker room is the right place to change out of your suit, Sam.
So that's another reason to start screaming. :Small Tongue:

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Whoa, are we actually going to get a good look at Sam? I thought the "Sam is hideous beyond human comprehension" running joke would have prevented that, and I expected him to end up routed away from the spa in order to sustain that joke.

----------


## theangelJean

> Whoa, are we actually going to get a good look at Sam? I thought the "Sam is hideous beyond human comprehension" running joke would have prevented that, and I expected him to end up routed away from the spa in order to sustain that joke.


My guess is that we may not see Sam ourselves, but the rest of the patrons of the Convenient Censer will, including Florence.  Now that I think of it, it's possible he may even be on panel - just conveniently censored...

----------


## DavidSh

> My guess is that we may not see Sam ourselves, but the rest of the patrons of the Convenient Censer will, including Florence.  Now that I think of it, it's possible he may even be on panel - just conveniently censored...


We're seeing parts of him now.   He looks a little more baroque than the Sqids in his story of the three stooges.

----------


## Radar

> We're seeing parts of him now.   He looks a little more baroque than the Sqids in his story of the three stooges.


That story had purposefully simplified graphics though.

----------


## theangelJean

> We're seeing parts of him now.   He looks a little more baroque than the Sqids in his story of the three stooges.


Huh. I hadn't registered anything but the discarded suit. Whoops!

----------


## Fyraltari

> Huh. I hadn't registered anything but the discarded suit. Whoops!


Yeah, I thought those were decorative plants.

----------


## Pax1138

I guess, after like - what?  24 years of comic?  - an artist might finally take a stab at showing off their hideous green tentacle alien.  I am excited to either see what he's come up with, or the hijinks that ensue to prevent us from doing so.  Or Sam'll get shoved back out the door again next strip so he can complain to Helix about humanoid-centric discrimination.

----------


## TaRix

> I guess, after like - what?  24 years of comic?  - an artist might finally take a stab at showing off their hideous green tentacle alien.  I am excited to either see what he's come up with, or the hijinks that ensue to prevent us from doing so.  Or Sam'll get shoved back out the door again next strip so he can complain to Helix about humanoid-centric discrimination.


But if it's a woman screaming, does that mean that Sam's actually female? Or is the locker room co-ed?

----------


## Willie the Duck

> But if it's a woman screaming, does that mean that Sam's actually female? Or is the locker room co-ed?


Those are certainly not the only two options.

That said, I can totally see this futuristic society where Winston's mother doesn't stand out as glaringly unusual having co-ed locker rooms. It might seem rather redundant for a clothing-not-expected pool.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Yeah, now that y'all mention it, the censorious censors might not have been primarily for the humanoids in the spa.

----------


## lord_khaine

I instead more expect we will see the aftermath of this. 
Likely from Florence's point of view as she runs damage control on the situation.

----------


## theangelJean

Are the Sqids the only sentient extraterrestrial life forms humans have met? I know there's Pfouts, but I wasn't sure if there were sentients there - would humans be considering colonising it if there were? So if there's only one alien wandering around in human space, what are the chances not everyone in the system knows he exists?

----------


## Radar

> Are the Sqids the only sentient extraterrestrial life forms humans have met? I know there's Pfouts, but I wasn't sure if there were sentients there - would humans be considering colonising it if there were? So if there's only one alien wandering around in human space, what are the chances not everyone in the system knows he exists?


Knowing he exists is not making you immune to the psychological effects of how he looks like. And that was just a sculpture that does not have Sam's color-changing skin - not sure if it is a right way of describing it, but there was a scene, where someone seeing Sam was talking about the tentacles going through each other as if he was an extradimensional abomination, which was explained as some sort of optical illusion.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

> Knowing he exists is not making you immune to the psychological effects of how he looks like. And that was just a sculpture that does not have Sam's color-changing skin - not sure if it is a right way of describing it, but there was a scene, where someone seeing Sam was talking about the tentacles going through each other as if he was an extradimensional abomination, which was explained as some sort of optical illusion.


Yeah, the line was something like:

"Don't be fooled by the chromatophores, I exist in only 3 dimensions, and have a certificate to prove it!"

----------


## Radar

> Yeah, the line was something like:
> 
> "Don't be fooled by the chromatophores, I exist in only 3 dimensions, and have a certificate to prove it!"


That's the keyword I needed to find the strip in question.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Sam, no! :Small Eek: 

This can only end badly.
I just can't tell for whom.
Well, it should be entertaining either way.

----------


## lord_khaine

Oh yeah.. 
This is either going to be a train wreck.
Or else Florence tackles Sam. Possibly even more of a train wreck.

----------


## theangelJean

New comic.

They asked for it...

----------


## Rockphed

And we continue to not see naked sqid. I, for one, am grateful.

----------


## Kantaki

That was close. I'm not sure I could take the resulting SAN damage. :Small Eek:

----------


## Willie the Duck

> And we continue to not see naked sqid. I, for one, am grateful.


I think we are in a 'Maris from Fraiser' moment -- the built-up individual is so cartoonish that nothing we could see would live up to the hype, so best to leave it unseen by the audience.

Or it's just a Friday cliffhanger.

----------


## Pax1138

Looks like the comic's going to be pretty easy to draw for the next couple of days at least.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## sihnfahl

> Looks like the comic's going to be pretty easy to draw for the next couple of days at least.


But the sentient robots?  Yeah, they're going to need massive memory deletion events.

----------


## Gez

> I think we are in a 'Maris from Fraiser' moment -- the built-up individual is so cartoonish that nothing we could see would live up to the hype, so best to leave it unseen by the audience.


Yeah. Nobody has ever been driven insane by a picture of Cthulhu, even less when it's drawn with a simple cartoony art style like the one in Freefall.

----------


## Kantaki

> Yeah. Nobody has ever been driven insane by a picture of Cthulhu, even less when it's drawn with a simple cartoony art style like the one in Freefall.


I've got a statuette of Cthulhu in my room. As far as I can tell my sanity hasn't been noticably affected.
Interesting dreams though. :Small Tongue:  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## lord_khaine

> Looks like the comic's going to be pretty easy to draw for the next couple of days at least.


Great point :D




> But the sentient robots? Yeah, they're going to need massive memory deletion events.


It does look like the robots are immune to the sanity damage that comes from watching Sam's full Sqidgly glory. 

Helix has by all accounts seen enough of Sam to make a sanity damaging replica.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Helix has by all accounts seen enough of Sam to make a sanity damaging replica.


This IS Helix we're talking about, though...

----------


## Rockphed

> This IS Helix we're talking about, though...


Are you suggesting that seeing Sam naked made helix stupid?

----------


## Radar

> Are you suggesting that seeing Sam naked made helix stupid?


Not sure what was the intention, but we do know that Sam can make robots question their sanity even without showing them how he looks like.

It might not be relevant, but I like when police chief cracked Sam's sanity for a change.

----------


## Rockphed

> Not sure what was the intention, but we do know that Sam can make robots question their sanity even without showing them how he looks like.


Sam's mind might be more maddening than his body. Too bad he prefers engaging in purile pursuits over philosophical debate.




> It might not be relevant, but I like when police chief cracked Sam's sanity for a change.


Incidentally, I don't think the chief has any illusions that Florence stayed for any reason other than her own desire to do so.

----------


## Radar

> Sam's mind might be more maddening than his body. Too bad he prefers engaging in purile pursuits over philosophical debate.


Well, that's his life philosophy.  :Small Wink:

----------


## GeoffWatson

Just an accident.

I suspected Helix had intentionally turned the lights off, but that would require more intelligence than he normally displays.

----------


## Rockphed

> Just an accident.
> 
> I suspected Helix had intentionally turned the lights off, but that would require more intelligence than he normally displays.


Helix would have found some way to project his memories of naked Sam in the darkness.

----------


## halfeye

Three Mile Island or  Chernobyl?

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Three Mile Island or  Chernobyl?


Catastrophe Florence has to fix (and either Sam or the station manager he's trying to outmaneuver use to their advantage).

----------


## sihnfahl

And here comes the hammer.

That wonderful "Humans are in danger!" safeguard results in an influx of robots who're going to try to fix everything ... for free.

----------


## Fyraltari

Wait they made the bombs sentient? Why?

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Wait they made the bombs sentient? Why?


Doylist: For the joke, of course.
Holmesian: because they were created before robots were deemed anything more than expendable and it is advantageous for them to be sentient because... 
Okay, I'm mostly stumped there. I'd say so they can't be spoofed or something, but we've seen that robots aren't always that bright. Plus these aren't weaponry nukes, but nuclear pulse rocket nukes, making them effectively sentient fuel which... nope, not seeing a good reason.

----------


## Radar

> Doylist: For the joke, of course.
> Holmesian: because they were created before robots were deemed anything more than expendable and it is advantageous for them to be sentient because... 
> Okay, I'm mostly stumped there. I'd say so they can't be spoofed or something, but we've seen that robots aren't always that bright. Plus these aren't weaponry nukes, but nuclear pulse rocket nukes, making them effectively sentient fuel which... nope, not seeing a good reason.


I'd say it's the same reason why in our world companies put microcomputers with some standard operating system in things, where a dedicated microcontroller would do the same or better work. Those AI brains can do any job, are mass-produced and maybe the AI calibration process for such simple tasks is easier than programming a non-AI circuit.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> Wait they made the bombs sentient? Why?


 Appropriate XKCD matching Radar's comment:

(Link)

Also, Schlock Mercenary also had quasi-aware missiles, IIRC. The concept was explored relatively early in the run, though, which means it is more than a decade ago, and I hesitate to locate the actual set of strips.

GW

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> Wait they made the bombs sentient? Why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c
> 
> 
> ...


And before that, Dark Star had sentient bombs. In fact I'm inclined to believe that it's a Dark Star reference.

----------


## Fyraltari

And GNNM had mortar shells with human still-leaving heads grafted on them, for some reason. The idea of a sentient weapon is kind of old bit it rarely makes any sense.

----------


## theangelJean

> And here comes the hammer.
> 
> That wonderful "Humans are in danger!" safeguard results in an influx of robots who're going to try to fix everything ... for free.


Yes, and ... They also have someone (a robot) with an interest in the accounting side of things.

Okay, they may not be a mobile unit being deployed this minute. They may not have the oversight to rein in the rest of the robots during the fix-it free-for-all, especially as the robots are in safeguard mode. I'm guessing at the very least, though, at the end De Morel will be presented with a very large bill. Maybe even a full analysis of the station accounting, eliminating his position.

Or Also we can see what goes horribly and hilariously wrong when a routine reactor restart and a horde of over-protective robots collide. Because I bet that's not in the emergency procedures manual.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Yes, and ... They also have someone (a robot) with an interest in the accounting side of things.


Which one?




> at the end De Morel will be presented with a very large bill. Maybe even a full analysis of the station accounting, eliminating his position.


His plan that he's kicking off ends with things in the black, so... seeing as he's not Kornada-level, he may have some justification in his belief.




> lso we can see what goes horribly and hilariously wrong when a routine reactor restart and a horde of over-protective robots collide. Because I bet that's not in the emergency procedures manual.


No, we get to see what happens with a bunch of robots with a lot of tools come to a breaking-down station that's putting humans at risk...

----------


## Kornaki

> No, we get to see what happens with a bunch of robots with a lot of tools come to a breaking-down station that's putting humans at risk...


If his entire plan was to trick the factory robots into fixing everything..... that would be amazing.

----------


## theangelJean

> Which one?


This one.  Named "Accounting". On the next strip, after some prompting, it gives Florence a nonzero (albeit unaffordable, and therefore I assume accurate) price for the new reactor. Doesn't look mobile, but has access to long range communications, at least.




> His plan that he's kicking off ends with things in the black, so... seeing as he's not Kornada-level, he may have some justification in his belief.


Yes, but that assumes he doesn't have to pay the robots as much as he would have to pay human workers. Robot salary is currently maintenance costs only, right? It might even be paid by EU and not come from his budget.
But I'm more thinking that Accounting may do a cost benefit analysis of running the station "properly" i.e. in a way that doesn't risk endangering humans, and find that De Morel has been losing the station money unnecessarily.




> No, we get to see what happens with a bunch of robots with a lot of tools come to a breaking-down station that's putting humans at risk...


This is true, but that's a chronic situation; the immediate event is a reactor shutdown and start-up while the other is out for maintenance (although that might just be to explain why the emergency reactors aren't being started up). Which is not routine, and I'm thinking it might go differently when you add robots shouting "emergency!" into the mix.

----------


## Fyraltari

> This one.  Named "Accounting". On the next strip, after some prompting, it gives Florence a nonzero (albeit unaffordable, and therefore I assume accurate) price for the new reactor. Doesn't look mobile, but has access to long range communications, at least.


Accounting isn't the name of a robot, it's short for "accounting department". Also the robot speaking isn't shown on-panel, they're on the phone through the computer rovert was talking to in the previous strips. Which is why they begin with "this is accounting".

----------


## sihnfahl

> This one.  Named "Accounting".


As Fyraltari said, that's the accounting department, not a robot that's suddenly interested in accounting.  Their job is to handle the expenditure, revenue and balance sheets.

And don't forget, that's the whole reason why Sam and Co are out there... because news from the station indicated there WAS a financial problem.




> But that assumes he doesn't have to pay the robots as much as he would have to pay human workers. Robot salary is currently maintenance costs only, right? It might even be paid by EU and not come from his budget.


That was the idea.
He literally does NOT have to pay them as much.

And it would come from his budget.  Budgets are REALLY broken out by department...




> although that might just be to explain why the emergency reactors aren't being started up


Starting up a reactor isn't just flipping a switch.  There's a startup sequence that also requires a bit of an energy investment to kick off.  And time.  And resources.  And the paperwork explaining WHY they had to Spend Money.

----------


## halfeye

> Starting up a reactor isn't just flipping a switch.  There's a startup sequence that also requires a bit of an energy investment to kick off.  And time.  And resources.  And the paperwork explaining WHY they had to Spend Money.


Stopping a shutdown isn't simple either, Chernobyl was <oversimlifies wildly> an attempt at stopping a shutdown that went wrong.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Stopping a shutdown isn't simple either, Chernobyl was <oversimlifies wildly> an attempt at stopping a shutdown that went wrong.


Well, it was a sequence of issues, yeah.  Some human error, some design flaw that wasn't rectified.

----------


## theangelJean

> As Fyraltari said, that's the accounting department, not a robot that's suddenly interested in accounting.  Their job is to handle the expenditure, revenue and balance sheets.
> 
> And don't forget, that's the whole reason why Sam and Co are out there... because news from the station indicated there WAS a financial problem.


Ahh, maybe I misread that. Although I did wonder if it was accounting specific to the bomb factory, rather than also including the station. After all, the station specifically does not have robots in its budget due to industrial dispute, while the bomb factory now has no human staff.

Also, while I get that Accounting was on the phone now, I'm not convinced yet that they're human. The first thing they looked at was Florence's credit with the robot community, and they seem to be happy for the reactor to be paid for from there rather than "show me the money". In particular EU no longer owns all the robots' assets and runtime, so they can't use that as part of their budget.




> That was the idea.
> He literally does NOT have to pay them as much.
> 
> And it would come from his budget.  Budgets are REALLY broken out by department...


 Sure, but your original comment was that the robots would want to fix everything for free. So we've got several points of view on how much the robots should be paid, and I was maybe adding one more to the mix: 

Robots in safeguard mode: just do it
De Morel: robots are cheap!
Worker's union: robots get equal to human wages
Accounting, whoever they are: ?? 
Sam, maybe with input from Florence, Helix, Naomi: ??




> Starting up a reactor isn't just flipping a switch.  There's a startup sequence that also requires a bit of an energy investment to kick off.  And time.  And resources.  And the paperwork explaining WHY they had to Spend Money.


Oh, definitely. But I linked that comic to point out that the current procedure is a reactor restart due to a known error, and everything is currently "under control", and while they might not have followed this procedure in this situation, the procedure is at least known and documented. In other words, there is currently no danger or emergency - although they are at much higher risk - and shouting robots might make things worse rather that better. And that's before you get to the robots discovering the sorry state of the maintenance.

Maybe I'm wrong about that, and maybe the technicians are also wrong - there's already plenty of room for human error. And maybe the narrative purpose of the strip was just to establish that the previously mentioned emergency reactors would not be started up automatically, as Florence is expecting, and that in this instance it isn't happening. The "why" is as you describe.

----------


## Rockphed

Over on the Freefall forum the author said that whether to try catching a reactor on the way down or start up the back-up should be the operator's decision.  I am operating under the assumption that any problems they have with restarting the operating reactor will be no more life threatening than if they had started the back-up reactor.

----------


## halfeye

> Over on the Freefall forum the author said that whether to try catching a reactor on the way down or start up the back-up should be the operator's decision.


That might be the case. and in the comic clearly is. Whether it ought to be the case might be another matter.




> I am operating under the assumption that any problems they have with restarting the operating reactor will be no more life threatening than if they had started the back-up reactor.


The lack of paperwork involved suggests they are off-script, with reactors that can be bad.

The fact that the reactor appears in the comic suggests it's going to be a problem.

----------


## Radar

> The lack of paperwork involved suggests they are off-script, with reactors that can be bad.
> 
> The fact that the reactor appears in the comic suggests it's going to be a problem.


Either the reactor itself, or the fallout from the situation with all the robots flocking in to save humans. With repair work like that, you do not want a mob running on their base instincts even if they are actually competent people.

----------


## Rockphed

> Either the reactor itself, or the fallout from the situation with all the robots flocking in to save humans. With repair work like that, you do not want a mob running on their base instincts even if they are actually competent people.


And we definitely haven't seen robots almost hurt people while running on "save the humans" protocols.

----------


## Grey_Wolf_c

> The lack of paperwork involved suggests they are off-script


The entire station is operating off-script and has been doing so for a long time. It's a jury-rigged mess, where they ha to canibilize a third of the station to keep the other two thirds going. This is just the latest example of it, but it is nothing new.

GW

----------


## Rockphed

> The lack of paperwork involved suggests they are off-script, with reactors that can be bad.


My personal thought is that having uneven paperwork depending on how they do their job is a problem.  Frankly I think that any time they have to do something stressful on their shift they should have the same amount of paperwork.  So "tripped the reactor by accident and catch it on the way down" should have the same amount of paperwork as "tripped the reactor by accident, shut it down all the way, and brought the spare online".  Then you actually see how common "repairman turned off the wrong box and tripped the reactor" actually is and you can do improvements to make it less common.  You don't have engineers who are primed to neglect reporting problems because it just makes more work than fixing the problem the sneaky way.

----------


## halfeye

> My personal thought is that having uneven paperwork depending on how they do their job is a problem.  Frankly I think that any time they have to do something stressful on their shift they should have the same amount of paperwork.  So "tripped the reactor by accident and catch it on the way down" should have the same amount of paperwork as "tripped the reactor by accident, shut it down all the way, and brought the spare online".  Then you actually see how common "repairman turned off the wrong box and tripped the reactor" actually is and you can do improvements to make it less common.  You don't have engineers who are primed to neglect reporting problems because it just makes more work than fixing the problem the sneaky way.


That isn't itself the problem though. Reactors are finicky.




> During a planned decrease of reactor power in preparation for the test, the power output unexpectedly dropped to near-zero. The operators were unable to restore the power level specified by the test program, which put the reactor in an unstable condition.


I expect the day will be saved, but I think it will get risky before that happens.

----------


## Pax1138

Just realized today that there are very faint outlines of what's going on in the dark. Guess we have Florence vision too.

----------


## Rockphed

> Just realized today that there are very faint outlines of what's going on in the dark. Guess we have Florence vision too.


Friday's strip also had faint outlines.  Near as I can tell the previous strip with naked Sam in the darkness did not.

----------


## halfeye

I like the "The Streak" shoutout.

----------


## WanderingMist

This is as close as we're gonna get to seeing Sam's true form, isn't it?

----------


## Willie the Duck

So a quadruped covered in tentacles, bearing little resemblance to Florence except for the voice and face, is able to trigger ship's Florence identity. Oh man, don't set ship's computer up to run any polar research stations...

----------


## Radar

> So a quadruped covered in tentacles, bearing little resemblance to Florence except for the voice and face, is able to trigger ship's Florence identity. Oh man, don't set ship's computer up to run any polar research stations...


I approve the reference.  :Small Big Grin:  That being said, ship's computer most likely knows how Sam looks like, so identifying the tentacle mass would not be much of a problem along with Florence.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I approve the reference.  That being said, ship's computer most likely knows how Sam looks like, so identifying the tentacle mass would not be much of a problem along with Florence.


Yeah, that's likely, but I'm still awaiting the scenario: 

Florence: Ship, I just heard the cargo bay doors open, who authorized that.
Ship: Florence did.
Florence: No I didn't. 
Ship: Yes you did. 
Florence: When?
Ship: Ten seconds ago.
Florence: No I didn't.
Ship: I assure you, you went up to the cargo bay door control panel, and asked me to open the cargo bay doors.
Florence: I'm in the galley right now, and was at that time as well.
Ship: Yes, but you are also in the cargo bay, consuming Sam and dismantling Helix. I'd have alerted you, but since it was Sam and Helix, it does not trigger my violence alert protocols. When you get here, perhaps you can ask yourself the meaning of all of this activity.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

We didn't see Full Frontal Sam, but this is a nice compromise. We get a silhouette of his full tentacly glory, without ruining the eldritch mystique (a la Seinfeld's "nude mystique").

----------


## theangelJean

Ok, new comic, new complication...
*Spoiler: Freefall 3777*
Show

The robots need Florence to transport them from the bomb factory to the station. So she's not going to be around to assist with any complications of the reactor restart.

Although, now that she has two jobs (Savage Chicken engineer, Station technician) I wonder if she has to choose where to be?

----------


## Rockphed

> Ok, new comic, new complication...
> *Spoiler: Freefall 3777*
> Show
> 
> The robots need Florence to transport them from the bomb factory to the station. So she's not going to be around to assist with any complications of the reactor restart.
> 
> Although, now that she has two jobs (Savage Chicken engineer, Station technician) I wonder if she has to choose where to be?


Note that Florence isn't worried about the humans:  She is worried that the stupid robots are going to fling themselves at the station using nuclear bombs.

I suspect that Florence could probably negotiate transport and send Sam to get the robots while she goes off and tries to help fix the power.  I don't think she will because he would come up with all sorts of ways to add extra fees against the robots, but she could probably convince him to not bilk them for too much.  Probably.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Yeah, that's likely, but I'm still awaiting the scenario:
> 
> Florence: Ship, I just heard the cargo bay doors open, who authorized that.


Your missing the point. The key point is that the ship DID accurately identify Florence on voice alone.
That means its identification algorithms are accurate, and guaranteed not to make any errors.

Well also. Being a spaceship its bound to have all manner of sensors. And not rely on visible light.




> Note that Florence isn't worried about the humans: She is worried that the stupid robots are going to fling themselves at the station using nuclear bombs.
> 
> I suspect that Florence could probably negotiate transport and send Sam to get the robots while she goes off and tries to help fix the power. I don't think she will because he would come up with all sorts of ways to add extra fees against the robots, but she could probably convince him to not bilk them for too much. Probably.


Well. Its not like the humans are in direct danger. So far the light has just gone because the station is at a power conservation state.
But there is emergency generators. And plenty of skilled technicians. Who by all accounts are better suited for this than a green candidate who dont know the hardware.

----------


## sihnfahl

> But there is emergency generators. And plenty of skilled technicians. Who by all accounts are better suited for this than a green candidate who dont know the hardware.


Florence isn't 'green', though.  And presumably there's enough similarities between the equipment that she can handle at least some basic tasks.

Things like watching pressure loads, coolant flow, etc.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Florence isn't 'green', though


No. Green is putting it to lightly. Super green. She hasnt even completed the introduction.
She dont know where anything are. Let alone how to navigate the work area. And now the light is off.

----------


## Rockphed

> Well. Its not like the humans are in direct danger. So far the light has just gone because the station is at a power conservation state.
> But there is emergency generators. And plenty of skilled technicians. Who by all accounts are better suited for this than a green candidate who dont know the hardware.


My point was (albeit badly made) that Florence can see all those factors and realize that rushing in isn't going to solve anything; the robots cannot.  If there was an air-leak on the station and somebody needed to rush around in a space suit to get all the stranded humans, Florence would brook no opposition to her doing it.  If the reactor needed to be tweaked by hand she would probably bite a human to get the tools to go do it herself (although at that point she would be operating so far outside her safeguards that her creators would probably notice).  But a nebulous "the lights are out, probably because the reactor experienced an emergency shut-down of some sort" situation doesn't trigger her "protect humans" training.

Ultimately, I think Florence is a much better made "AI" than the robots.  If nothing else, she is more waterproof than most of them.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Ultimately, I think Florence is a much better made "AI" than the robots.  If nothing else, she is more waterproof than most of them.


I think this is due to Florence having much, much more experience of living alongside humans than robots. Most A.I. rarely get to interact with humans and spend most of their lives fullfilling a specific purpose while she was raised by a human family and had no purpose beyond "proving Bowman's Wolves are allright".

----------


## sihnfahl

Yep.

"MUST BE BROUGHT UP TO CODE."

Now they find the places that robots can't fit because of design...

----------


## Psionic Dog

> My point was (albeit badly made) that Florence can see all those factors and realize that rushing in isn't going to solve anything; the robots cannot. If there was an air-leak on the station and somebody needed to rush around in a space suit to get all the stranded humans, Florence would brook no opposition to her doing it. If the reactor needed to be tweaked by hand she would probably bite a human to get the tools to go do it herself (although at that point she would be operating so far outside her safeguards that her creators would probably notice). But a nebulous "the lights are out, probably because the reactor experienced an emergency shut-down of some sort" situation doesn't trigger her "protect humans" training.
> 
> Ultimately, I think Florence is a much better made "AI" than the robots. If nothing else, she is more waterproof than most of them.


Well, wolves do make for better starting material than automated machinery, but some of it is just maturity. We have Florence, then mature factory-one robots like Sawtooth, then near-threshold robots like Tangent and the bomb factory, and lastly the three year olds.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Well, wolves do make for better starting material than automated machinery


This would be a good line for some 'post without context' thread.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Fyraltari

Today on _Words you never, ever, ever want in the same sentence:_
"antsy" and "nuclear"!

----------


## halfeye

> Today on _Words you never, ever, ever want in the same sentence:_
> "antsy" and "nuclear"!


"Orion drive" tops those though, and it's in the same sentence.

----------


## Rockphed

I wonder how long it will take the crazy ladies to realize that Sam probably tastes divine.

----------


## Kantaki

Food that talks isn't food.
On the other hand they used to have long pig flavored food on the menu, so... :Small Eek:

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Food that talks isn't food.
> On the other hand they used to have long pig flavored food on the menu, so...


Because of course they do.  :Small Annoyed: 

I get the idea -- a space station, if it has meat at all, is going to have it via some kind of cell-culture process or just use non-meat rather than having meat-producing animals leaving and being butchered on station. Planet Jean and the people eating insects indicate that Stanley wants this society not to be post-scarcity and need to consider these logistic issues as real. Once you do that, you can have the meat be any animal you can culture or flavor you can replicate. Still, really dude? Just a little more sophomoric than I was expecting. 

Anyways... The plot thread of Sam being a delicious prey-species certainly has been part of his story arc since near the beginning. Mostly in terms of emus and small dogs, though. It seems a little odd that these post-humanists are having such an epiphany moment with the realization that 'hey, this biological sophont is made out of meat, huh?' Still, it is an interesting side thing for them to focus on and I like this group, so I'm interested in where they go with this.

----------


## Kantaki

They aren't eating meat,  they're eating mushrooms*.
I'm not sure if that makes it better or worse. :Small Confused: 

*Mythical Meat flavoured  Mycoprotein.
So many questions.

----------


## sihnfahl

> They aren't eating meat,  they're eating mushrooms*.
> I'm not sure if that makes it better or worse.


Fungus, not necessarily a mushroom.  Yeasts and molds are also fungi.

He's probably referring to a future strain of Fusarium venenatum.  A current strain is now being produced commercially.

It makes sense if your space and power is limited.  It's easier to make a single source of protein and flavor it, rather than have multiple cloning facilities for all the meat types.

And, as it's a simpler genetic structure, it'd be easier to engineer necessary nutrients into it.  Various amino acids, enzyme production, etc.

----------


## Jasdoif

Consider that a flavor designer trying to imagine mythical kraken is almost certainly going to think of the more real sorts of giant squid; the idea that sqid smell like squid amuses me.  The "u" may not be silent, but it could be olfactory-neutral.




> He's probably referring to a future strain of Fusarium venenatum.  A current strain is now being produced commercially.


I've tried Quorn products a few times, they're pretty good.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic 

Yeah, they probably _should_ discontinue that flavour.
Not because it would be awkward, because it would give Sam's people _ideas_.

----------


## Gez

Nettie keeps being the sane one that rein in the other two when they go too far.

----------


## Rakaydos

> Nettie keeps being the sane one that rein in the other two when they go too far.


So like Sawtooth?

----------


## Gez

> So like Sawtooth?


Yeah, kind of the same dynamics, except with less destruction of walls.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Yeah, kind of the same dynamics, except with less destruction of walls.


And without the Law of Superior Tonnage.

----------


## WanderingMist

> New comic 
> 
> Yeah, they probably _should_ discontinue that flavour.
> Not because it would be awkward, because it would give Sam's people _ideas_.


Sam and an idea. Name a more dangerous combination.

----------


## Rockphed

They already discontinued "Long Pig", which is sometimes a euphemism for human meat.

----------


## theangelJean

So, Bowman AI have enough safeguards to protect Sam even though he's not human, but actual humans don't?

Actually I wonder where Sam sits on the Bowman AI's is-it-a-human scale. We already know that it fails safe enough that Florence considers Dr Bowman to be "human". On the other, many of the robots categorise Florence on the "DOGGY!" side, even though she shares many of the same attributes. And they've repeatedly been shown to be willing to leave Sam in danger in favour of saving humans.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Sam and an idea. Name a more dangerous combination.


Mr. Kornada and power.



> They already discontinued "Long Pig", which is sometimes a euphemism for human meat.


Considering it's only artificial flavour added to lab-grown meat, it's unlikely to actually taste the same as actual human flesh.

----------


## Gez

> So, Bowman AI have enough safeguards to protect Sam even though he's not human, but actual humans don't?


Eh?

Is this about Florence not being in human-safe mode? She explains it well enough I think: it's a matter of degree and her understanding of the situation is that things are stable enough that she doesn't need to go in human-safe mode at the moment.

----------


## WanderingMist

> And they've repeatedly been shown to be willing to leave Sam in danger in favour of saving humans.


Clearly non-human seeing as at least one robot (the ship) tried to murder him repeatedly. To be fair to the robots, they learned from the example humans were setting when it came to Sam.

For example




> Mr. Kornada and power.


Fair point. Sam tends to only endanger himself and his allies. 




> Considering it's only artificial flavour added to lab-grown meat, it's unlikely to actually taste the same as actual human flesh.


It's far enough in the future for FTL travel to be a thing. I think they can duplicate flavors pretty precisely as well as being able to simulate muscle development for lab-grown meat to more closely match the real thing. "Artificial flavor" and "natural flavor" are the same thing anyway, the only difference is where the flavor was created, in nature or in a lab.

----------


## theangelJean

> Eh?
> 
> Is this about Florence not being in human-safe mode? She explains it well enough I think: it's a matter of degree and her understanding of the situation is that things are stable enough that she doesn't need to go in human-safe mode at the moment.


No, I mean that the actual humans don't come with built-in safeguards, so some human somewhere is going to decide to hunt Sqid for meat. Unless they've got much, much better at socialisation between now and then. They are better at limiting themselves to angry mobs and at most cartoon style violence, I'll give them that.

It just seemed an interesting contrast with the robots (edit: specifically the Bowman AI, which the Savage Chicken is not), whose safeguards are enough to protect Sam from being hurt or killed, despite his lack of the extra protection that being human would give him.

----------


## Gez

> No, I mean that the actual humans don't come with built-in safeguards, so some human somewhere is going to decide to hunt Sqid for meat. Unless they've got much, much better at socialisation between now and then. They are better at limiting themselves to angry mobs and at most cartoon style violence, I'll give them that.


Problem #1 is that the Sqids live on a remote planet, so a hunting trip would be very expensive and time-consuming (even if you make the trip in cryogenic hibernation, your customers will have to wait a long time) ; problem #2 is that seeing a naked Sqid provokes a "the goggles they do nothing" from humans, so your hunting party will need to overcome that.

----------


## theangelJean

> Problem #1 is that the Sqids live on a remote planet, so a hunting trip would be very expensive and time-consuming (even if you make the trip in cryogenic hibernation, your customers will have to wait a long time) ; problem #2 is that seeing a naked Sqid provokes a "the goggles they do nothing" from humans, so your hunting party will need to overcome that.


I never said it was a _good_ idea. But, knowing current day humans, until they pass a law against it that is actually enforceable somehow, someone is bound to try. Freefall-era humans may think a little more deeply and act less hastily, who knows.

----------


## Rockphed

> I never said it was a _good_ idea. But, knowing current day humans, until they pass a law against it that is actually enforceable somehow, someone is bound to try. Freefall-era humans may think a little more deeply and act less hastily, who knows.


I am fairly certain that star travel is expensive enough and governments are worried enough about Sqids stealing technology that travel to Sam's Star is banned all sorts of ways.  Currently they have a few samples of the Sqid biosphere and 1 very creative Sqid who they cannot send home for fear of him leading his people into space and/or nuclear weapons with which to determine anything.

----------


## sihnfahl

> I am fairly certain that star travel is expensive enough and governments are worried enough about Sqids stealing technology that travel to Sam's Star is banned all sorts of ways.  Currently they have a few samples of the Sqid biosphere and 1 very creative Sqid who they cannot send home for fear of him leading his people into space and/or nuclear weapons with which to determine anything.


That and any existing ship carrying anything to his planet would cause ecological collapse due to the relative competition levels.  And Sam's contaminated.

----------


## Radar

> That and any existing ship carrying anything to his planet would cause ecological collapse due to the relative competition levels.  And Sam's contaminated.


Which, to be honest, opens up the question what happened there after the first exploration ship that did land on the planet. We are most likely not looking at any kind of apocalyptic event, but this is a seriously important question.

That being said, I think that the microbiological danger is a bit overstated here, as Sam survives quite well in an Earth-like environment with the key problem being a different oxygen content of the atmosphere. He very explicitly does not need to keep himself sterile to live. And if viruses and bacteria are not as much of a danger, making sure there are no higher life forms on a ship is far easier to manage.

----------


## Fyraltari

Can somebody explain to my smooth brain what's going on?

----------


## PhantomFox

> Can somebody explain to my smooth brain what's going on?


The station is outrunning them, essentially

----------


## theangelJean

For anyone who wanted more detail (yes, I know that might be "no-one") - they're at the outer edge of the rotating station, and spinning with it. With the exit behind them, all they have to do is spin slightly less fast than the edge of the station (i.e. moving slightly backwards relative to the station). Once they're over the edge of the ramp, they're effectively in space and moving. All they have to do is make sure they're out of the way of the other end of the exit door, so they can avoid being scooped back up, and then their inertia will carry them away.

----------


## Willie the Duck

Okay, so (per this comic) they are accelerating forward at the time. I like how it is shown that some of the surfaces are not aligned with the 'gravity' of the ship in that state (yes, we went over this way back when the ship first became spaceworthy somewhere). What's interesting to me is that the shower appears to be at the forward side of a room, with the spigot (and thus water supply) on the forward side of that. I would have thought that spaceships would want water supplies on the aft side of person-occupied compartments, if only because you need structural support to keep the tank of water from pressing backwards towards the rear of the ship, and that's easier to do when it can be the actual joists in the wall or the like. Or maybe the difference is too small to care about. Either way, ISS astronauts/cosmonauts are jealous of a shower that size.

----------


## theangelJean

> Either way, ISS astronauts/cosmonauts are jealous of a shower that size.


ISS staff get showers? How does that work in microgravity?

----------


## Thomas Cardew

> ISS staff get showers? How does that work in microgravity?


ISS doesn't. They use liquid soap and rinseless shampoo with a tiny amount of water that either gets toweled off or evaporated by an airflow system. Skylab astronauts DID get a shower. It was incredibly cumbersome. They had to strap in their feet, raise a floor-ceiling cylindrical shower wall, then soap up, spray pressurized water over themselves, then suction up the water. It took like 2+ hours. The Apollo astronauts had bad sponge baths and a horrible stench.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> ISS doesn't. They use liquid soap and rinseless shampoo with a tiny amount of water that either gets toweled off or evaporated by an airflow system. Skylab astronauts DID get a shower. It was incredibly cumbersome. They had to strap in their feet, raise a floor-ceiling cylindrical shower wall, then soap up, spray pressurized water over themselves, then suction up the water. It took like 2+ hours. The Apollo astronauts had bad sponge baths and a horrible stench.


And I didn't check to see if ISS had followed suit. 
Apollo I can see not having much of a solution. It was a defined limited mission (I guess ISS tours are too, but serious difference in scale).
I'm surprised the ISS solution is what the ended up with. given how much they worry about dust and particulates and such getting into vital components, I would think air-soluble soap products would likewise be a no-no. Wonder what they will do with the next-gen stations and bases we are starting to hear about.

----------


## Rakaydos

> And I didn't check to see if ISS had followed suit. 
> Apollo I can see not having much of a solution. It was a defined limited mission (I guess ISS tours are too, but serious difference in scale).
> I'm surprised the ISS solution is what the ended up with. given how much they worry about dust and particulates and such getting into vital components, I would think air-soluble soap products would likewise be a no-no. Wonder what they will do with the next-gen stations and bases we are starting to hear about.


Spaceflight tends to be super conservitive- you go with what has been proven to work, because you cant afford to expiriment. I wouldnt expect anything else until we get AG stations like Vast's dumbell station and the ring-station that is Voyager Station.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Spaceflight tends to be super conservitive- you go with what has been proven to work, because you cant afford to expiriment. I wouldnt expect anything else until we get AG stations like Vast's dumbell station and the ring-station that is Voyager Station.


At the same time, they learn from mistakes. If evaporating soaps have created greasy buildup in hard-to-reach places, they likely will try to implement a different solution to the dirty-astronaut conundrum (after all, they apparently learned from the challenge of Skylab showers).

----------


## Thomas Cardew

I think it was less a 'mistake' as much as 'cheaper'. The shower was more weight, took up space, and was less water efficient. It's much easier to have the crew sponge bathe than to include bulky, unwieldy, and expensive creature comforts.

----------


## halfeye

> I think it was less a 'mistake' as much as 'cheaper'. The shower was more weight, took up space, and was less water efficient. It's much easier to have the crew sponge bathe than to include bulky, unwieldy, and expensive creature comforts.


The internal capacity of Skylab was huge, the ISS is bigger because it has a lot of solar panels, but it's internal capacity probably isn't as large as Skylab's even now.

----------


## sihnfahl

> The internal capacity of Skylab was huge, the ISS is bigger because it has a lot of solar panels, but it's internal capacity probably isn't as large as Skylab's even now.


In terms of habitable volume, ISS is larger.  Slightly.

From NASA:  Habitable Volume: 13,696 cubic feet (388 cubic meters)

From Space.com:  Skylab's habitable volume was enormous: 12,750 cubic feet

In terms of internal space for an individual compartment, though....

Most of the ISS modules are between 4 and 4.5 meters in diameter.

Skylab, however, was about 6.6 meters in diameter.

----------


## halfeye

> In terms of habitable volume, ISS is larger.  Slightly.
> 
> From NASA:  Habitable Volume: 13,696 cubic feet (388 cubic meters)
> 
> From Space.com:  Skylab's habitable volume was enormous: 12,750 cubic feet
> 
> In terms of internal space for an individual compartment, though....
> 
> Most of the ISS modules are between 4 and 4.5 meters in diameter.
> ...


I'm mostly just annoyed that Skylab was destroyed by pig ignorance.

It was a terrible waste, it could have been attached to the ISS and used for all sorts of useful things.

----------


## sihnfahl

> It was a terrible waste, it could have been attached to the ISS and used for all sorts of useful things.


Maybe.  At the time of the ISS, Skylab would have been 25 years old, and have done about 140,600 orbits.

No telling what shape it would have been in.  To say nothing of the necessary retrofits due to the age of the equipment on board compared to what the ISS packs.

----------


## halfeye

> Maybe.  At the time of the ISS, Skylab would have been 25 years old, and have done about 140,600 orbits.
> 
> No telling what shape it would have been in.  To say nothing of the necessary retrofits due to the age of the equipment on board compared to what the ISS packs.


I loathe the way that like bad children the space scientists of the USA trash all of their toys in the hopes of getting new ones. I strongly suspect some of them would trash the Voyagers if they could.

The shape skylab would have been in was a big one. It was the third stage of a Saturn Five refitted as a space station. If nothing else, the shell should have been reused. There are other Saturn Five third stages out there, they wouldn't be as good as Skylab was, but they should be reused if they can be recaptured.

----------


## sihnfahl

> I loathe the way that like bad children the space scientists of the USA trash all of their toys in the hopes of getting new ones. I strongly suspect some of them would trash the Voyagers if they could.


But only if they could instantly pop a follow-up probe with updated equipment based on what we've learned in the intervening times.  It's been 45 years, after all, since V-I.




> but they should be reused if they can be recaptured.


It would take a lot of time and effort.  And depend on the orbit they're on.  Heck, we still haven't captured any old satellites, nor have the means to.  It's 'send up to consign them to the high orbit graveyard', or 'yeet them into the ocean'.

We've getting cluttered up there, and we'd need to clean it out...

----------


## Yuki Akuma

It would, in a lot of cases, be _more wasteful_ to recover space vehicles than it would be to just let them stay where they are and eventually get destroyed on reentry.

----------


## halfeye

> It would, in a lot of cases, be _more wasteful_ to recover space vehicles than it would be to just let them stay where they are and eventually get destroyed on reentry.


The aluminium at least could be reused in most cases, we don't yet have an ore mining setup in space. No smelting either, so that would be "fun".

The Saturn Five third stages are not in Leo, and they're full of fuel tanks which are probably empty by now and could be lived in. They'd need to be adapted, but compared to the cost of pushing living spaces up the gravity well they'd be cheap. I'm not saying they're worth a big search, but if one were found within easy reach accidentally it would be worth keeping.

----------


## WanderingMist

> The aluminium at least could be reused in most cases, we don't yet have an ore mining setup in space. No smelting either, so that would be "fun".
> 
> The Saturn Five third stages are not in Leo, and they're full of fuel tanks which are probably empty by now and could be lived in. They'd need to be adapted, but compared to the cost of pushing living spaces up the gravity well they'd be cheap. I'm not saying they're worth a big search, but if one were found within easy reach accidentally it would be worth keeping.


Here's the answer to why it almost certainly is not worth it to try and retrieve anything that is already in space:

https://what-if.xkcd.com/38/

----------


## Rockphed

> We've getting cluttered up there, and we'd need to clean it out...


Too bad we stopped using our space plane that had a cargo bay suitable for collecting and de-orbiting space junk...

----------


## theangelJean

> Here's the answer to why it almost certainly is not worth it to try and retrieve anything that is already in space:
> 
> https://what-if.xkcd.com/38/


Except the original idea wasn't "bring space objects back to Earth", it was "repurpose existing space objects as space stations, because they're nice and roomy". The main objection in that article is that it would take two orders of magnitude more fuel to bring an (extremely distant) object back to Earth orbit than it would to reach it (and then it would burn up on re-entry anyway). However the Saturn V debris weren't designed to leave Earth's gravity well, instead being left behind after giving momentum to Moon missions. So in theory it's more "adjusting an Earth orbit object into a different Earth orbit, then using it as a shell".

In practice, anything we send up there needs to already have a protective shell in place (and more). So until we get large-scale manufacturing happening in space, that's not going to happen either.

----------


## Rakaydos

> Too bad we stopped using our space plane that had a cargo bay suitable for collecting and de-orbiting space junk...


To be fair, it was a prototype space plane that could have used several more iterations to  really be efficent, but a certian Senator from Alabama slashed the development budget.

Our best bet is to get the SpaceX chomper variant Starship online, to fill the same role.

----------


## Radar

> Maybe.  At the time of the ISS, Skylab would have been 25 years old, and have done about 140,600 orbits.
> 
> No telling what shape it would have been in.  To say nothing of the necessary retrofits due to the age of the equipment on board compared to what the ISS packs.


There is a reason that MIR was decommissioned and an entirely new space station was built instead. Between the structural fatigue and the costs of doing a renovation of the old station in space (for which we most likely would need to develop a few new technologies and space-train a pretty big crew of people to get it done), it would most likely be far easier and cheaper to just prepare a new module on Earth and send it to ISS. Just by the men-hours and related food, air and water supplies, retrofitting things in orbit might require more things hauled into orbit than sending a brand new module from Earth ever would.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Too bad we stopped using our space plane that had a cargo bay suitable for collecting and de-orbiting space junk...


The Shuttle's furthest trip was 386 miles.  Low Earth orbit.

The ISS is 250-260 miles up.

GPS satellites travel at middle Earth orbit.  12k - 13k miles up.

Now factor in magnetosphere.

It'd be a trip.

----------


## Willie the Duck

If the entire space industry up to this point were precision-planned to optimize usage of everything we sent up there for use as space station habitat sections. This would involve:
each rocket stage built with an eye towards post-rocket usage (an eye towards long-term seal, heat reflective and insulative outer shell, whatever else)set to disengaged at the right point to be in a useful orbithad a minor propulsion module of its' own to move it into the right locationbeen built to assemble to the growing station as the final part of it's (the individual rocket stage's) mission and/or have built-in components to make it easy for later missions to grab, orient, and add that component to a growing station assembly

None of those individually are unfeasible (although if a mission ever failed because of a flaw in the 'secondary material repurposement' systems, that would probably be the last mission with such a setup). It seems like it would require more forethought, long-term planning, and cohesive vision than any of the space programs have thus far shown (with most endeavors being very self-contained missions, both budgetarily and planning-wise).

----------


## WanderingMist

> There is a reason that MIR was decommissioned and an entirely new space station was built instead. Between the structural fatigue and the costs of doing a renovation of the old station in space (for which we most likely would need to develop a few new technologies and space-train a pretty big crew of people to get it done), it would most likely be far easier and cheaper to just prepare a new module on Earth and send it to ISS. Just by the men-hours and related food, air and water supplies, retrofitting things in orbit might require more things hauled into orbit than sending a brand new module from Earth ever would.


Yeah, this. Just like how Bowman's wolves are a proof-of-concept of that engineering native life up to human-level intelligence is easier and cheaper than the more expensive and difficult option modifying existing humans to fit in on a different planet. Of course, the whole "left handed protein, right handed protein" thing being a deadly difference is a bit out of date (mint has right handed amino acids, for one).

----------


## sihnfahl

> Yeah, this. Just like how Bowman's wolves are a proof-of-concept of that engineering native life up to human-level intelligence is easier and cheaper than the more expensive and difficult option modifying existing humans to fit in on a different planet. Of course, the whole "left handed protein, right handed protein" thing being a deadly difference is a bit out of date (mint has right handed amino acids, for one).


No, it's still valid.  Our bodies lack the ability to process left handed glucose; the necessary biological functions are just not there.  Same with right vs left handed AAs.

In fact, it's being looked at as a method of treatment.  As our bodies are designed to break down left, but not right, handed amino acids, right handed AAs are being looked at as a drug delivery system.

----------


## WanderingMist

Wasn't exactly expecting to see that much of Sam.

----------


## theangelJean

He looks less scary when you can't see the chromatophores?
Have to admit, I hadn't considered the implications of physical contact with _Florence_ on _Sam._

Wonder what Helix found?

----------


## theangelJean

I don't think we've had a story from Helix's point of view before, have we? It has the disadvantage (compared to audience POV) of being dialogue free so far, but the art and Helix's voice are fun.

----------


## Radar

> I don't think we've had a story from Helix's point of view before, have we? It has the disadvantage (compared to audience POV) of being dialogue free so far, but the art and Helix's voice are fun.


It also shows that Helix has learn a lot from his time with Sam. For instance, he knows well that danger is not a 0/1 thing and rather a smooth scale (his comment about a normal panic says as much), which is a way better understanding of the world than what the bomb factory robots have presented.

----------


## theangelJean

> It also shows that Helix has learn a lot from his time with Sam. For instance, he knows well that danger is not a 0/1 thing and rather a smooth scale (his comment about a normal panic says as much), which is a way better understanding of the world than what the bomb factory robots have presented.


Hmm. They've already discussed the need for robots to be socialised. So far we have:
Dvorak, Qwerty, and their community, who have been extensive contact with Max and each other
Other robots who live in town and interact with people eg. Clippy 
Factory robots who have never seen a human
Blunt and Edge who worked in relative isolation (I consider Blunt to be a special case as he was actually exposed to G**d*n*r in the Dark, he just turned it off?)

Is Helix now a separate case, of a robot being brought up by a Sqid from a young age? With help from a Bowman's Wolf?

Not that that would solve the socialisation issue in general, as robots still outnumber organics by several orders of magnitude in the immediate area. But it does maybe say something about how human-focussed AI can be alien-safe, or can at least be made so. Or does Helix now consider Sam to be human?

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> Blunt and Edge who worked in relative isolation (I consider Blunt to be a special case as he was actually exposed to G**d*n*r in the Dark, he just turned it off?)


Blunt knew about GitD, and planned to expose himself to it along with the rest of robot society, but he didn't actually execute its code.




> Is Helix now a separate case, of a robot being brought up by a Sqid from a young age? With help from a Bowman's Wolf?


Yeah, I think Helix is unique for having been mostly socialized by Sam. I think some portion of his simple-minded demeanor has to do with being tied in logical knots daily by Sqid ethics. I recall lots of strips drawing on that for humor.




> Or does Helix now consider Sam to be human?


I think Sam's response would be a lot like Florence's!

----------


## Rockphed

Helix purposely hurt Sam when Sam convinced him it was okay to steal from crew members. I think he said somewhere that he sticks around partly because when humans are around his mind gets fuzzy and partly because he enjoys the antics.

----------


## Jasdoif

> Helix purposely hurt Sam when Sam convinced him it was okay to steal from crew members. I think he said somewhere that he sticks around partly because when humans are around his mind gets fuzzy and partly because he enjoys the antics.


Pretty close, at the very least.

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## Anarchic Fox

Oops, I was completely wrong.

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## theangelJean

The pun in this one is a good one.*

I was going to say the puns are back, but between Rusty&co and all the other comics I read, I'm not even sure if it was this comic where puns were a good proportion of the jokes.

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## Anarchic Fox

Puns are good fun, as long as they're more effort that "this word sounds kinda like another."

Speaking of which, has anyone played Hero U?  :Small Tongue:

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## Rockphed

Is helix older (and thus more able to ignore stupid orders) than the order of brownies, or has his time with Sam made him more tricksie and more able to ignore orders? Laws are direct orders after all but he helps Sam break the law almost all the time.

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## tyckspoon

> Is helix older (and thus more able to ignore stupid orders) than the order of brownies, or has his time with Sam made him more tricksie and more able to ignore orders? Laws are direct orders after all but he helps Sam break the law almost all the time.


Probably both - he's old enough for his brain to be matured, and he's been socialized with Sam, Florence, and all the humans teaching him directly and indirectly how to operate more like people do (..which is to say ignoring, bending, or outright breaking any number of rules both implicit and explicit based on the twin principles of 'Nobody is here to catch me doing it' and 'doing it the way the rule says to do it takes too much effort, I'm doing it my way.') These robots may have younger brains and certainly don't have the social learning if an implied order like that sign can halt them.

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## WanderingMist

> The pun in this one is a good one.*
> 
> I was going to say the puns are back, but between Rusty&co and all the other comics I read, I'm not even sure if it was this comic where puns were a good proportion of the jokes.


All comics are secretly an excuse to make puns. Even the dramatic or horror-based ones.

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## lord_khaine

Last comic is simply hilarious xD
Learned from Sam indeed.

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## Radar

> Last comic is simply hilarious xD
> Learned from Sam indeed.


Indeed! Reminds me of the perimeter defense system and more imporatantly the wedgie scheme.

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## Fyraltari

I like how well Sam understands enlightened self-interest.

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## lord_khaine

I like how the lesson Sam gives is directly in opposition on how he right now sells the new ship idea :D

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## theangelJean

Hmm. But Florence already knows what's in it for Sam, though, right? A new ship.

What happens to the Savage Chicken then? It wants a new captain, but it's currently hobbled by the lack of a working reactor. If the robots build a new ship instead, is the Chicken then stuck on the station?

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## halfeye

Wouldn't the new ship belong to Florence?

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## WanderingMist

Hmm, I could swear Sam tried to teach Florence this exact lesson sometime before. Not sure where though.

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## theangelJean

New comic.

Two strips ago: "They want to do more than make a replacement reactor for us. There's a type of ship called an Aldrin cycler. Now before you say no..."

Seems Florence had slightly different starting assumptions than Sam did.

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## lord_khaine

Well to be fair. Florence's assumption that it would be to convert the station into a ship seems initially like the biggest leap of logic.
But it still solves the issue of what to do about the station.

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## theangelJean

> Well to be fair. Florence's assumption that it would be to convert the station into a ship seems initially like the biggest leap of logic.
> But it still solves the issue of what to do about the station.


Oh, it definitely seems like Florence made the bigger assumption. Then again, it also relates to their current problem of what to do with panicking bomb factory robots right now.

I am wondering if she missed the reference to her credit right before that, though. Does she think that the bomb factory robots want to do the conversion for free, in failsafe mode? And if not building a new ship for Sam, what does she think is in it for him?

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## Gez

> Well to be fair. Florence's assumption that it would be to convert the station into a ship seems initially like the biggest leap of logic.


I think it's not an assumption, but an idea she just got inspired by the robots' proposal as related by Sam.

Let's go back: the original "new ship" plot started from here to there:
http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3700/fc03629.htm --> http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3700/fc03634.htm

The "Aldrin cycler" twist arrived a bit later, as Sam wanted to get an altruistic pretext to get a new ship:
http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3700/fc03662.htm --> http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3700/fc03666.htm

However, as a "new ship", an Aldrin cycler is not especially interesting. By definition, it is stuck to its orbital pattern. It's not something like the Savage Chicken that you can land and take on varied expeditions. Furthermore, cyclers are more interesting when you have two of them, going on opposite orbital patterns, so that you can always travel on the "short" path instead of having to take the "long" path. (Cf. Aldrin's original plan for a pair of Earth-Mars cyclers.)

So instead of replacing the Savage Chicken with an Aldrin cycler (Sam's idea to get rid of the computer that wants to kill him), Florence is thinking about converting the Niven/Pournelle transfer station, which currently has lost its original business plan and is losing money because of that, into a cycler, in addition to "her" own cycler. Since this station is already set up to catch and release ships, there wouldn't be a lot of major changes required.

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## lord_khaine

The math makes i eyes roll around, but im kinda impressed the Aldrin cycler as a concept is more than 40 years old.
And also it is kinda brilliant.

Else yeah fair. Its possible Florence is thinking about both making a cycler and converting the station.
And possibly just about it being easier to convert the station into one and solve a lot of problems.

I guess wednesday will show.

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## theangelJean

> I think it's not an assumption, but an idea she just got inspired by the robots' proposal as related by Sam.
> 
> -well-reasoned argument snipped-


It makes sense for her to immediately think of dual cyclers, then. But why would she ask if Sam had already brought up the idea to the station personnel, if she didn't think it was his idea?

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## Gez

> It makes sense for her to immediately think of dual cyclers, then. But why would she ask if Sam had already brought up the idea to the station personnel, if she didn't think it was his idea?


It's a logical tie to the other issues of this arc, namely that the robots want to come work on the station and that Sam was tasked with finding out why the station had become so unprofitable. With activity resuming, De Morel's "money saving" schemes can be abandoned and the station can become profitable again.

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## WanderingMist

> It makes sense for her to immediately think of dual cyclers, then. But why would she ask if Sam had already brought up the idea to the station personnel, if she didn't think it was his idea?


I'm pretty sure she was just asking if he had gotten around to it yet.

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## Gez

"Symbiotic scoundrel" is actually a pretty accurate self-description for Sam.

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## Radar

> "Symbiotic scoundrel" is actually a pretty accurate self-description for Sam.


Indeed. His sustainable theft business model is far more advanced than what we have on the economics scale.

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## Rockphed

> Indeed. His sustainable theft business model is far more advanced than what we have on the economics scale.


I don't know about that: the Laffer Curve has been a thing since the mid 1900s with possible antecedents going back 600 years. Taxes and theft are different, but in economic terms we could express theft in terms of taxes.  Protection rackets are, to my understanding, essentially extra-governmental taxes.  At any rate, it is fairly easy to phrase the Laffer Curve in terms of theft profit next cycle given theft take every cycle.

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## halfeye

> I don't know about that: the Laffer Curve has been a thing since the mid 1900s with possible antecedents going back 600 years.


1976 was the middle of the 1900s? I'd have thought the midde was 1950 myself.

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## Rockphed

> 1976 was the middle of the 1900s? I'd have thought the midde was 1950 myself.


Anything older than me and younger than my grand-parents is mid-1900s in my book.  Alternatively we are going with the short 20th century: everything after WW2.

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## Gez

> 1976 was the middle of the 1900s? I'd have thought the midde was 1950 myself.


You haven't paid attention to the subject matter. When talking about the Laffer curve, the middle is 70, not 50.  :Small Tongue: 



> such estimates are often controversial. The New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics reports that estimates of revenue-maximizing income tax rates have varied widely, with a mid-range of around 70%.

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## Fyraltari

> Anything older than me and younger than my grand-parents is mid-1900s in my book.  Alternatively we are going with the short 20th century: everything after WW2.


I've heard of the twentieh century starting after WWI, but after WWII is a new one.

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## Rockphed

> I've heard of the twentieh century starting after WWI, but after WWII is a new one.


But it does put 1976 right in the middle  :Small Amused: .  At this point I am just stubbornly refusing to admit that I missed when the Laffer curve was introduced and am coming up with ever more tenuous reasons why my initial statement was not wrong from a certain point of view.

Edit: After rereading the wiki article on the Laffer Curve, the latest possible date for the invention of the idea that high tax rates reduce government receipts was _1974_, since that is the date listed where Laffer proposed that idea to politicians.  He claims to have been teaching it before hand, so I generously gave 5 - 10 years of leeway for its prior invention by him (reinvention rather because the article also lists various places where the idea was used going back like 600 years), putting it in the 60s, which is close enough to "mid 20th century" for my taste.  If I had to actually divide the 20th century up, I would have preWW1, ww1, interwar, ww2, mid-century, and "the 80s and 90s".  The longest of those is my "mid-century", and it isn't really in the middle (going from 45 through the Carter Administration), but mostly governments did the same sort of things throughout it.

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## Gez

> If I had to actually divide the 20th century up, I would have preWW1, ww1, interwar, ww2, mid-century, and "the 80s and 90s".  The longest of those is my "mid-century", and it isn't really in the middle (going from 45 through the Carter Administration), but mostly governments did the same sort of things throughout it.


I'd divide the post-WW2 part into these parts, myself:
Dawn of the Cold War (1945-1968)The Liberal Revolution (1968-1979)Revenge of the Conservatives (1979-1991)The Unipolar Moment (1991-2001)

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## Anarchic Fox

> Indeed. His sustainable theft business model is far more advanced than what we have on the economics scale.


It's awesome how this comic builds on itself so that such callbacks aren't just repeated jokes, but developed themes.

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## theangelJean

New comic. 

Robots have siblings, it seems. We haven't seen any other sibling relationships between robots in the comic yet, have we? I wonder what social structures they have in the bomb factory.

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## Kornaki

What makes you think they have siblings? Am I missing something?

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## Rockphed

> What makes you think they have siblings? Am I missing something?


Well, these various units all have names that are [Function][Serial Number], so maybe that is being interpreted as being siblings.  Frankly, I think the only robot names we saw back on Jean were names that various neural-pruned bots had acquired through various means.  We have Dvorak and Qwerty, Sawtooth Rivergrinder, Helix, Edge, Blunt, and Clippy.  There are probably a couple more I cannot think of right away (the nudist tailor probably has a name and I think one of his students was named "Abby"), but generally we don't get a lot of robot names.

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## theangelJean

> What makes you think they have siblings? Am I missing something?





> Well, these various units all have names that are [Function][Serial Number], so maybe that is being interpreted as being siblings.  Frankly, I think the only robot names we saw back on Jean were names that various neural-pruned bots had acquired through various means.  We have Dvorak and Qwerty, Sawtooth Rivergrinder, Helix, Edge, Blunt, and Clippy.  There are probably a couple more I cannot think of right away (the nudist tailor probably has a name and I think one of his students was named "Abby"), but generally we don't get a lot of robot names.


In the bomb factory, the robots are named by model line and "sequence" of creation. Forklift14 and Forklift18 are stated to be working together in strip 3833. I guess I am applying the human concept of "siblings" to the situation of AI being created on the same line, but at different times. Rover17 is used to this naming convention, which makes me wonder how many such duplicates we might find in this factory.  Now, it would make sense for this to be common in a factory - that's the whole point of factories. It's the implications for robot socialisation that have me interested.

I guess I am making a bunch of assumptions here, maybe some of them are unfounded. But it feels to me like this group is different from other groups of robots we have met:
- they have been relatively isolated physically from other robots, but in a large group, unlike Blunt and Edge who were isolated socially.
- there haven't been humans around for them to interact with regularly - even if they received orders from humans previously, we know that hasn't been the case for a while.
- they have interacted mainly with each other, seeing as they have a dedicated member of staff for receiving outside communications. 
- at least some of them have reached neural pruning age, and have started making hats. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the AI on this factory were roughly the same age, dating to shortly before its launch date. AI are themselves made in a separate factory on Jean, right? Although now I am wondering where the AI in the bombs themselves comes from.

So we might be dealing with a society of adults who have "grown up" together without much direct human contact, but with internet access. They have the "protect humans" safeguard built in, but how many of them have ever seen one?

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## Kornaki

> In the bomb factory, the robots are named by model line and "sequence" of creation. Forklift14 and Forklift18 are stated to be working together in strip 3833. I guess I am applying the human concept of "siblings" to the situation of AI being created on the same line, but at different times.


We don't even know that.   Their naming convention is for robots of the same model, not robots from the same factory line.   They're likely from the same factory line,  but I think e.g. Florence would argue that is not true for her.

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## Fyraltari

I forget, was it ever explained why Florence's space suit only has one leg?

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## tyckspoon

> I forget, was it ever explained why Florence's space suit only has one leg?


I don't think so, but seems like a fairly straightforward thing to guess at - since it's intended to be used in micro-gravity situations where you will never really have reason to try to perform a walking movement, then creating separate legs just creates unnecessary complications in designing the suit.

..Florence may also have made/had modified the suit to her own requirements (her helmet would need to be shaped differently to account for the shape of her head and snout/muzzle compared to the relatively flat face of a human, for instance) and having the bottom of the suit be basically a big sack would be much, much easier to do than trying to tailor EVA-suitable pant legs that would work with her anatomy.. extra since if you're trying to make separate legs you have to find a way to include a tail cover. Which again is much simpler if you just shove it all in the bag.

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## theangelJean

Apparently I underestimated just how isolated these robots are. Is commnet a planet-only thing?

Would explain why the factory robots don't know that there are already robots on the station. I wonder if the station robots are already on a fix-everything crusade ...

And I wonder what category they are putting Florence into. If they see her as Human there are implications for her interactions with them. Or maybe they see her as another AI?

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## WanderingMist

> Apparently I underestimated just how isolated these robots are. Is commnet a planet-only thing?
> 
> Would explain why the factory robots don't know that there are already robots on the station. I wonder if the station robots are already on a fix-everything crusade ...
> 
> And I wonder what category they are putting Florence into. If they see her as Human there are implications for her interactions with them. Or maybe they see her as another AI?


Probably. These robots are pretty far out for a commnet connection to be of any use. Based on them not knowing what a dog is, they _probably_ identify Florence as human, like how Florence did with Dr. Bowman.

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## Gez

> Apparently I underestimated just how isolated these robots are. Is commnet a planet-only thing?


AFAIK the setting does not feature an ansible (FTL transmission of information). We've even seen that with the space trip to the P/N junction as Niomi's communications with her family got increasingly more lag until attempting conversations just became not practical anymore.

Besides, connecting a fully-automated remote factory to the commnet just isn't interesting. Those robots do not _need_ to chat with planet-based robots to fulfill their duties. In fact it could even be a security risk; they build nuclear bombs, what if a human gives them an order to send him several nuclear bombs?

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## Rockphed

They have FTL communication in the form of FTL ships carrying messages. The details of how the FTL works have not been discussed in comic, but it involves ships that look like push pops and freezing people.

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## Yuki Akuma

> They have FTL communication in the form of FTL ships carrying messages. The details of how the FTL works have not been discussed in comic, but it involves ships that look like push pops and freezing people.


The FTL drive is called the DAVE* Drive. And that is basically the only information we have.

* Dangerous And Very Expensive

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## D&D_Fan

I would think FTL travel or communication in Freefall would be based on real tech or phenomena that we already know can be made or at least probably simulated, so maybe warp bubbles or wormholes or some sort of quantum entanglement stuff. But probably not wormholes or quantum stuff, those are weird, an Alcubierre drive is just more classic and makes more sense in terms of treating it as linear transport where passengers are in transit for a while, rather than establishing a wormhole or something, which you could send a drone to open the other side of the wormhole and and send people through quickly after that. (cryo not required)

Use of cryonic stasis means it's still pretty realistically slow in terms of sci-fi stuff. Space is big. Even if one could travel several times the speed of light, it would still take years, maybe months if it's very fast, but certainly a long time to travel from Sol to Alpha Centauri for example. So based on that, yeah, I think freefall's FTL is probably XC where X is maybe 10 or 20 or something, for cryonic stasis to be necessary.

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## sihnfahl

> Use of cryonic stasis means it's still pretty realistically slow in terms of sci-fi stuff. Space is big. Even if one could travel several times the speed of light, it would still take years, maybe months if it's very fast, but certainly a long time to travel from Sol to Alpha Centauri for example. So based on that, yeah, I think freefall's FTL is probably XC where X is maybe 10 or 20 or something, for cryonic stasis to be necessary.


I think it can be down to something simpler than that.

It's cheaper.  Consider the life support and space requirements of someone frozen vs not.  Even if you go nutrient and caloric dense on genetically engineered foodstuffs, it still has mass and volume to be accounted for.  And you'd need more water and the associated life support systems.

If they're being unfrozen on arrival, less space and mass used up for living quarters, showers, toilets, etc, for people other than the crew.

Since we're not in a Star Trek environment (replicators supplanting the need to carry food and water in storage)... all that adds up.  More mass, more fuel, more cost.

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## Rockphed

> I would think FTL travel or communication in Freefall would be based on real tech or phenomena that we already know can be made or at least probably simulated, so maybe warp bubbles or wormholes or some sort of quantum entanglement stuff. But probably not wormholes or quantum stuff, those are weird, an Alcubierre drive is just more classic and makes more sense in terms of treating it as linear transport where passengers are in transit for a while, rather than establishing a wormhole or something, which you could send a drone to open the other side of the wormhole and and send people through quickly after that. (cryo not required)
> 
> Use of cryonic stasis means it's still pretty realistically slow in terms of sci-fi stuff. Space is big. Even if one could travel several times the speed of light, it would still take years, maybe months if it's very fast, but certainly a long time to travel from Sol to Alpha Centauri for example. So based on that, yeah, I think freefall's FTL is probably XC where X is maybe 10 or 20 or something, for cryonic stasis to be necessary.


The one metric we have is that Jean can send messages to Earth by laser (and it takes either 15 or 30 years depending on if the quoted number is one-way or round trip) or it can send them on an FTL ship and expect an answer in about a year.

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## Yuki Akuma

> The one metric we have is that Jean can send messages to Earth by laser (and it takes either 15 or 30 years depending on if the quoted number is one-way or round trip) or it can send them on an FTL ship and expect an answer in about a year.


That would put Jean around 15 to 30 light years away from Earth, which is... pretty close, in the grand scheme of things. There's only about a hundred stars within 30 light years of us.

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## Rakaydos

> The one metric we have is that Jean can send messages to Earth by laser (and it takes either 15 or 30 years depending on if the quoted number is one-way or round trip) or it can send them on an FTL ship and expect an answer in about a year.


"Expect an answer" is a fuzzy standard. It means that they can make a 15 light year trip in under half a year, but HOW MUCH under is unstated, as it's dependent on ship actually being scheduled to make the trip.

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## sihnfahl

> That would put Jean around 15 to 30 light years away from Earth, which is... pretty close, in the grand scheme of things. There's only about a hundred stars within 30 light years of us.


We can further refine it by restricting it to class G stars (similar to our own).  Otherwise, there would have to be a bit of genetic modification for photosynthesis, and blue light + UV exposure for humans.

And we only know of 2.  Alpha Centauri A, 4.4 LY away, and Tau Ceti, 11.9 LY away.  The third, Sigma Draconis, is 18.8LY.

----------


## Lapak

> I would think FTL travel or communication in Freefall would be based on real tech or phenomena that we already know can be made or at least probably simulated, so maybe warp bubbles or wormholes or some sort of quantum entanglement stuff. But probably not wormholes or quantum stuff, those are weird, an Alcubierre drive is just more classic and makes more sense in terms of treating it as linear transport where passengers are in transit for a while, rather than establishing a wormhole or something, which you could send a drone to open the other side of the wormhole and and send people through quickly after that. (cryo not required)
> 
> Use of cryonic stasis means it's still pretty realistically slow in terms of sci-fi stuff. Space is big. Even if one could travel several times the speed of light, it would still take years, maybe months if it's very fast, but certainly a long time to travel from Sol to Alpha Centauri for example. So based on that, yeah, I think freefall's FTL is probably XC where X is maybe 10 or 20 or something, for cryonic stasis to be necessary.


I could have sworn that at some point the FTL tech in Freefall was clarified to be warp-bubble-type space manipulation that ran in the reverse of what we normally expect out of relativity. Essentially, from the ship's perspective it is traveling at sublight speed and takes hundreds of years to travel between the stars, but from an outside frame of reference it is traveling at FTL speeds. So the ship has to be equipped with cryo and built to operate on autopilot for centuries _but also_ makes the actual trip far faster.

----------


## halfeye

> I could have sworn that at some point the FTL tech in Freefall was clarified to be warp-bubble-type space manipulation that ran in the reverse of what we normally expect out of relativity. Essentially, from the ship's perspective it is traveling at sublight speed and takes hundreds of years to travel between the stars, but from an outside frame of reference it is traveling at FTL speeds. So the ship has to be equipped with cryo and built to operate on autopilot for centuries _but also_ makes the actual trip far faster.


That would be appalling. There would be no advantage to that sort of FTL travel at all, for the travellers. I'm not saying I remember it being right or wrong in the comic, I'm just agast at the idea.

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## Lapak

> That would be appalling. There would be no advantage to that sort of FTL travel at all, for the travellers. I'm not saying I remember it being right or wrong in the comic, I'm just agast at the idea.


For the travellers, no; for the people on the planets on either end of the trip, it allows for supplies, culture, and new colonists to be moved around in a timeframe that's meaningfully useful.

And to be clear, this is completely an IIRC situation; I remember having this broken down at some point but I might be mistaken.

----------


## Jasdoif

> They have FTL communication in the form of FTL ships carrying messages. The details of how the FTL works have not been discussed in comic, but it involves ships that look like push pops and freezing people.


And manipulating space/time density, apparently.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Would someone link the comics that have information about Jean's star? My attempts at using Freefall's search function haven't been fruitful.

----------


## Rockphed

> Would someone link the comics that have information about Jean's star? My attempts at using Freefall's search function haven't been fruitful.


I'm not sure Jean's Star ever gets mentioned. I know Jean was pretty barren before the humans colonized but I don't remember anything about the star.

Edit: and I found where she mentions the laser and I was wrong: she expects an answer in fifteen years, so wherever she expects an answer from is 7.5 light years away. It might be the distance to the research station she was intended to go to before Sam stole her.

Also, the Asimov is expected back in a year in the same comic.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> Edit: and I found where she mentions the laser and I was wrong: she expects an answer in fifteen years, so wherever she expects an answer from is 7.5 light years away. It might be the distance to the research station she was intended to go to before Sam stole her.


Thanks for the info! I doubt the 7.5 ly is to Earth, since there's nothing but red/brown dwarves at that distance from Earth. Sirius is about 8.7 ly away, and has the bonus of being part of the "Alpha Canis Majoris" system, which you could translate as the first big doggy system. However, the joke about the name "Jean" was that planets are so common that naming them has become humdrum, so I doubt we're anywhere close to Earth.

Vaguely related, I recently learned that the RMS velocity of nearby stars is about 10^(-4) c relative to the Sun, which sounds slow, but is still twice as fast as any of the probes produced to date.

----------


## sihnfahl

> I'm not sure Jean's Star ever gets mentioned.


It's really only mentioned in passing.  Florence talks about it when Sam asks about the radiation exposure starships get.




> Thanks for the info! I doubt the 7.5 ly is to Earth, since there's nothing but red/brown dwarves at that distance from Earth.


And I doubt it'd be Alpha Centauri, because ... well, it's closer, and as you said, there's so many inhabited planets that naming them got humdrum.  And AC would pretty much be #1 on the list of systems to try to colonize.

So we're really so far out that we can just call it 'Generic G Sequence Star System' and leave it at that.

----------

