# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  [AL] Mechanical considerations for Treantmonks Bugbear

## prototype00

So Im starting up a Bugbear blaster built on the chassis Treantmonk presented here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=olEJkTWVpKI for AL.

However Ive come up with a couple of questions while monkeying around with the nuts and bolts involved:

1. When do you take that second level of Fighter? First level is of course fighter for con save prof, but when is a good time to slot in level 2? When you just hit T2 at level 5?

2. Treantmonk recommends shield and casting, but since Scorching Ray is VS, that would preclude use of a spellcasting foci, and indeed the more powerful ones that boost spell attack rolls like the staff of power or the wand of the war mage. Would you recommend forgoing the shield, or foci until you can pick Warcaster (at lvl 14 by his estimation!). 

Note: Magic items received can be controlled for to a certain extent and in a certain pool in AL, especially if you DM.

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## Mastikator

The second level of fighter gives you action surge. Lets you double the number of attacks on the first round when you want to benefit from the bugbears 1st round ability.

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## prototype00

> The second level of fighter gives you action surge. Lets you double the number of attacks on the first round when you want to benefit from the bugbears 1st round ability.


Im quite aware of how good it it, yes. Im just wondering when in the levelling process to take it? Should I just start with Fighter 2 and then go straight Wizard or should I slot it in once Ive got Scorching Ray (requiring Wiz 3 first).

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## Dork_Forge

Do you mind writing the build gist so we don't have to watch the video?

I can't address 1 without knowing the build, but 2 is easy:

2) Just use a component pouch, leaves you with an effectively free hand to cast spells or do whatever you please. Foci are of no mechanical benefit to you unless they have an enchantment or it's a staff you intend to use as a melee weapon.

You mentioned Scorching Ray, but also that Fighter gives Con prof, in anticipation of the build gist I'm going to assume that this features a lot of Wizard levels for some reason?

Edit: Ah saw your reply, the better proposition would be to not be a Wizard period. Sorcerer is much better for the concept.

What level are you starting at?

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## Mastikator

Eh you can either start fighter for the con saving throw proficiency or wizard to beeline for scorching ray. Either way is fine, up to you what you prefer.

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## prototype00

> Do you mind writing the build gist so we don't have to watch the video?
> 
> I can't address 1 without knowing the build, but 2 is easy:
> 
> 2) Just use a component pouch, leaves you with an effectively free hand to cast spells or do whatever you please. Foci are of no mechanical benefit to you unless they have an enchantment or it's a staff you intend to use as a melee weapon.
> 
> You mentioned Scorching Ray, but also that Fighter gives Con prof, in anticipation of the build gist I'm going to assume that this features a lot of Wizard levels for some reason?
> 
> Edit: Ah saw your reply, the better proposition would be to not be a Wizard period. Sorcerer is much better for the concept.
> ...


The build gist is Bugbear Fighter 2/War Wizard X, mostly for the really big boost to initiative which is important for the combo to go off (Bugbear win initiative= Big damage). 

The thing is that Sorceror has some nice damage boosting mechanics, but no initiative boosting ones quite as good as the War Wizard. (Or at least I assume that is the logic)

Edit: Its for Adventurers League so I can nudge a bit the level I start at as well as the magic items I have at said levels. (On account of DMing)

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## Dork_Forge

> The build gist is Bugbear Fighter 2/War Wizard X, mostly for the really big boost to initiative which is important for the combo to go off (Bugbear win initiative= Big damage). 
> 
> The thing is that Sorceror has some nice damage boosting mechanics, but no initiative boosting ones quite as good s the War Wizard. (Or at least I assume that is the logic)


An understandable, but flawed, approach. The Int to initiative is nice, but you'll still lose initiative sometimes, maybe even get surprised on occasion.

To build a blaster entirely around that is a risky novelty, you can slap Alert onto any build. By going Sorcerer you not only put yourself in a better position as a blaster (metamagic and subclass synergies) but you also set yourself up for the Charisma multiclassing ecosystem:

- Warlock sets you up with an improved Eldritch Blast (which scales with character level and can be cast as a bonus action with metamagic) as well as the potential for additional damage (from Genie for example).

- Bard nets you Jack of All Trades for initiative (and everything else) with the potential for extremely nasty castings of Booming Blade as a bonus action (Whispers Bard smites)

Heck, if you're all about initiative just take Fighter to 3, take Battle Master and the Ambush maneuver. Then throw a superiority die at whatever initiative roll looks a little low to you. You can even use the Parry maneuver as a cover for what Shield won't protect you from, since you'll have more than enough dice for initiative and won't be using a weapon.

I'm going to throw a wild guess that Treantmonk just applied Wizard to this build because he has a preference for it. Fighter 2/War Wizard X does relatively little for this build compared to all options.

Edit: if you want specifics you'll have to say what level and items you can start with from DMing, I'm not that familiar with AL current season.

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## Unoriginal

> So IÂm starting up a Bugbear blaster built on the chassis Treantmonk presented here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=olEJkTWVpKI for AL.
> 
> However IÂve come up with a couple of questions while monkeying around with the nuts and bolts involved:
> 
> 1. When do you take that second level of Fighter? First level is of course fighter for con save prof, but when is a good time to slot in level 2? When you just hit T2 at level 5?
> 
> 2. Treantmonk recommends shield and casting, but since Scorching Ray is VS, that would preclude use of a spellcasting foci, and indeed the more powerful ones that boost spell attack rolls like the staff of power or the wand of the war mage. Would you recommend forgoing the shield, or foci until you can pick Warcaster (at lvl 14 by his estimation!). 
> 
> Note: Magic items received can be controlled for to a certain extent and in a certain pool in AL, especially if you DM.


Typical of Treantmonk's work: missing key information, not as good as it pretends to be, clunky at the best of time, and based on misunderstood or misrepresented rules.

Prototype00, if you like the concept you're *far* better off ignoring Treantmonk and re-building it from scratch yourself.

"Bugbear acting first" is not equal to "big damage". The extra damage triggers on either when the Bugbear surprises a target (from Volo's) or when the attack is the first to hit that creature (from the MP:MoM), and the damage is at 2d6 once per combat per creature at best. EDIT: Got that one wrong actually, as pointed out by others below it's 2d6 per hit on a creature that hasn't acted yet. I apologize.

In other words there is no reasons to invest in a subclass to boost initiative, meaning there is little reason for the suggested multiclass. You can either go full Eldritch Knight Fighter or Full Wizard and be better at the thing, without ASI delays, spell delays or class abilities delays.

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## Dork_Forge

Curiosity got the better of me and... why is that video 50 minutes long and most importantly _why is he making a build that is not aiming for the title of the video?_

Seriously, I thought the video was making a blaster with a Bugbear, which fine, but it's just optimizing the Bugbear. To which he then ruled out Gloom Stalker (which he even said was the best option) because he didn't want to use it, and he discounted a Sorlock because he just made one. 

He literally ruled out multiple good options for arbitrary reasons just to end up on an 18 levels of Wizard build.





> Typical of Treantmonk's work: missing key information, not as good as it pretends to be, clunky at the best of time, and based on misunderstood or misrepresented rules.
> 
> Prototype00, if you like the concept you're *far* better off ignoring Treantmonk and re-building it from scratch yourself.


Thoroughly agree.




> "Bugbear acting first" is not equal to "big damage". The extra damage triggers on either when the Bugbear surprises a target (from Volo's) or when the attack is the first to hit that creature (from the MP:MoM), and the damage is at 2d6 once per combat per creature at best. 
> 
> In other words there is no reasons to invest in a subclass to boost initiative, meaning there is little reason for the suggested multiclass. You can either go full Eldritch Knight Fighter or Full Wizard and be better at the thing, without ASI delays, spell delays or class abilities delays.


The MPMoM version is if the creature hasn't acted yet, so you can get 2d6 per attack if you beat them in initiative. It's glaring power creep, but it's official and it's insane.


But yeah, if the aim is to just do lots of damage as a Bugbear, this is not the build to do it with.

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## prototype00

> Typical of Treantmonk's work: missing key information, not as good as it pretends to be, clunky at the best of time, and based on misunderstood or misrepresented rules.
> 
> Prototype00, if you like the concept you're *far* better off ignoring Treantmonk and re-building it from scratch yourself.
> 
> "Bugbear acting first" is not equal to "big damage". The extra damage triggers on either when the Bugbear surprises a target (from Volo's) or when the attack is the first to hit that creature (from the MP:MoM), and the damage is at 2d6 once per combat per creature at best. 
> 
> In other words there is no reasons to invest in a subclass to boost initiative, meaning there is little reason for the suggested multiclass. You can either go full Eldritch Knight Fighter or Full Wizard and be better at the thing, without ASI delays, spell delays or class abilities delays.


Actually, according to MoTM, the +2d6 damage from surprise attack triggers per attack/hit and not once per foe, meaning that just at lvl 3, Scorching ray can do 4d6 damage per ray (so 12d6 damage assuming all hit, and you can target a single enemy with it) if the Bugbear uses it against a foe that hasnt had its turn yet.

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## Mastikator

You may go for divination wizard and use your portent for initiative. If you roll high on portent you go first, if you roll low then the enemy rolls low on their saving throw against your high impact spell.

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## Dork_Forge

> You may go for divination wizard and use your portent for initiative. If you roll high on portent you go first, if you roll low then the enemy rolls low on their saving throw against your high impact spell.


Or you could hand them a low initiative to use your gimmick, especially since there's no way to avoid that like Legendary Resistance.

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## Unoriginal

> Actually, according to MoTM, the +2d6 damage from surprise attack triggers per attack/hit and not once per foe, meaning that just at lvl 3, Scorching ray can do 4d6 damage per ray (so 12d6 damage assuming all hit, and you can target a single enemy with it) if the Bugbear uses it against a foe that hasnt had its turn yet.


I apologize, you are correct.

Still, as you just said, a non-multiclassed Bugbear Wizard can do that at lvl 3. And a non-multiclassed Bugbear Fighter with a Greatsword can do 4 attacks for 16d6+(4*STR mod) if all attacks hit the same foe, at lvl 5. With both having an ASI to spend on improving their chances to hit, on another stat, or on a Feat.

Treantmonk's multiclass is worse than both at the thing it's supposed to be good at.

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## Dork_Forge

> I apologize, you are correct.
> 
> Still, as you just said, a non-multiclassed Bugbear Wizard can do that at lvl 3. And a non-multiclassed Bugbear Fighter with a Greatsword can do 4 attacks for 16d6+(4*STR mod) if all attacks hit the same foe, at lvl 5.
> 
> Treantmonk's multiclass is worse than both at the thing it's supposed to be good at.


According to the comments, the important coll part of the build is Shapechanging into a Hydra.

Because that's what you want out of a Bugbear optimization guide. Right guys? ...Guys?

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## Mastikator

> I apologize, you are correct.
> 
> Still, as you just said, a non-multiclassed Bugbear Wizard can do that at lvl 3. And a non-multiclassed Bugbear Fighter with a Greatsword can do 4 attacks for 16d6+(4*STR mod) if all attacks hit the same foe, at lvl 5.
> 
> Treantmonk's multiclass is worse than both at the thing it's supposed to be good at.


You're comparing a level 3 to a level 5. A level 5 character with 2 fighter 3 wizard can cast scorching ray twice on one turn with action surge. 2 x 3 x 4d6 = 24d6 damage
At level 6 they pick up fey touched and hex. With hex precast and use their bonus action on the first turn to change target it is upgraded to 30d6

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## Unoriginal

> According to the comments, the important coll part of the build is Shapechanging into a Hydra.
> 
> Because that's what you want out of a Bugbear optimization guide. Right guys? ...Guys?


So a spell that multiclass would only be able to start casting at lv 19?

Treantmonk really is showing us how skilled he truly is.

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## Dork_Forge

> You're comparing a level 3 to a level 5. A level 5 character with 2 fighter 3 wizard can cast scorching ray twice on one turn with action surge. 2 x 3 x 4d6 = 24d6 damage
> At level 6 they pick up fey touched and hex. With hex precast and use their bonus action on the first turn to change target it is upgraded to 30d6


Let's be fair here, yet again we have a Fighter with no subclass in a nova competition. Dropping a maneuver on each attack spirals quickly, not just in raw damage but also stacking things like prone and frightened.

The Hex thing is also pushing it, neglecting boosting initiative or casting mod for something you may not even be able to precast. The Fighter at 6th would be able to have both a higher attack mod and higher initiative.




> So a spell that multiclass would only be able to start casting at lv 19?
> 
> Treantmonk really is showing us how skilled he truly is.


Yup, really don't understand the logic or the lack of questioning the build in his comments.

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## Mastikator

> Let's be fair here, yet again we have a Fighter with no subclass in a nova competition. Dropping a maneuver on each attack spirals quickly, not just in raw damage but also stacking things like prone and frightened.
> 
> The Hex thing is also pushing it, neglecting boosting initiative or casting mod for something you may not even be able to precast. The Fighter at 6th would be able to have both a higher attack mod and higher initiative.


Yeah. I would probably go with gloom stalker / battle master if I wanted to make a nova at first round bugbear myself. But I also want to be fair to the build OP is asking about and give it honest criticism rather than comparing a T1 wizard to a T2 fighter

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## Unoriginal

> Yeah. I would probably go with gloom stalker / battle master if I wanted to make a nova at first round bugbear myself. But I also want to be fair to the build OP is asking about and give it honest criticism rather than comparing a T1 wizard to a T2 fighter


I'm not comparing a T1 wizard to a T2 Fighter, I'm comparing both to Treantmonk's build to show how bad it is.

But if you want to compare all of them at the same level and in the same conditions:

Bugbear Eldritch Knight 6 with Fey Touched (Hex):

4 attacks, 5d6+STR mod per attack, or 20d6+(STRmod*4) if all hit, with one more ASI to spend.

Bugbear War Wizard 6 with Fey Touched (Hex):

4 attacks, 4d6 per attack, or 16d6 with an additional 3 damages from War Wizard if all hit.

If we assume Treantmonk's "Hex is always on" paradigm applies, at least.

Now let's assume, for example, the Eldritch Knight invested in Eldritch Blast via Magic Initiate instead:

5 attacks, 1d10+2d6 for the first two, 2d6+2d6+STRmod for the next two, 2d6+2d6+STRmod for the bonus action one, total 2d10+16d6+(STRmod*3), and still one more ASI to spend.

Now let's take those builds and put them to lvl 8:

Eldritch Knight: spent two ASIs caping STR, now deals 20d6+20 damages if all hit.
War Wizard: spent one ASI in INT, now deals 20d6+4 damages if all hit.
Treantmonk build: didn't have any new ASI to spend, now deals 30d6 if all hit.

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## Master O'Laughs

> I'm not comparing a T1 wizard to a T2 Fighter, I'm comparing both to Treantmonk's build to show how bad it is.
> 
> But if you want to compare all of them at the same level and in the same conditions:
> 
> Bugbear Eldritch Knight 6 with Fey Touched (Hex):
> 
> 4 attacks, 5d6+STR mod per attack, or 20d6+(STRmod*4) if all hit, with one more ASI to spend.
> 
> Bugbear War Wizard 6 with Fey Touched (Hex):
> ...


It has been awhile since I watch the video but why are we using a straight bugbear war wizard for Treantmonk's build idea?

From prior conversation, are we not assuming a Fighter2/war wizard 4?

Then even ignoring hex, 2 casts of a lvl 2 scorching ray would be 6 rays each doing 4d6 damage (2d6 base, 2d6 from bugbear) for a total of 24d6 (84 avg) fire damage. This would be with a +4 Int modifier.

The fighter would definitely have more sustained damage in subsequent rounds. In the initial round (assuming everything hits and hex since they have a free bonus action). 4 attacks at 5d6+4 damage for 20d6+16 damage total (86 avg damage). 

So fighter at lvl 6 would even have the superior damage in the initial round, though he would be melee while the wizard would be ranged (usually does not have an impact but could).

At lvl 11 (straight fighter and fight 2/wizard 9), fighter damage potential would be 6 attacks at 5d6+5 damage/attack (no GWM to simplify accuracy assumptions) for 30d6+30 (135 avg damage).

The wizard would be 2 scorching rays at 5th level (may be a better spell but can't think off top of my head) for 12 rays at 4d6 damage for 48d6 (168 avg damage) total.

If it is reasonable to assume ongoing hex at this level then damage would be 12 rays for 5d6 for a total of 60d6 (210 avg damage) total.

Again, assuming everything hits.

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## KorvinStarmast

> Typical of Treantmonk's work: missing key information, not as good as it pretends to be, clunky at the best of time, and based on misunderstood or misrepresented rules. Prototype00, if you like the concept you're *far* better off ignoring Treantmonk and re-building it from scratch yourself.


 This is a good response. 



> According to the comments, the important coll part of the build is Shapechanging into a Hydra.
> Because that's what you want out of a Bugbear optimization guide. Right guys? ...Guys?


 *Snicker* On the other hand, Hydra's at level 19 are up against some pretty powerful monsters. Oh, wait, TM's white room approach doesn't address that.  


> So a spell that multiclass would only be able to start casting at lv 19?


 Yep. 



> Treantmonk really is showing us how skilled he truly is.


 *snicker* 
Alert feat for the win.

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## Unoriginal

> It has been awhile since I watch the video but why are we using a straight bugbear war wizard for Treantmonk's build idea?


I am not doing that, I am comparing Treantmonk's build to both a straight wizard and a straight fighter.




> From prior conversation, are we not assuming a Fighter2/war wizard 4?


We are.


Perhaps it would be better do an every-few-levels comparison of each build.

[WORK IN PROGRESS, couldn't finish it at the moment but did not want to risk lose my work]

BUILD GOALS:

1) Hit first.

2) Hit often.

3) Hit hard.

Using the standard array:

Bugbear (future) Eldritch Knight Fighter: STR 17 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 10 CHA 8

Bugbear (future) War Wizard: STR 10 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 17 WIS 12 CHA 8

Bugbear Treantmonk Build: STR 10 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 17 WIS 12 CHA 8


*Level 1:*

*Bugbear (future) Eldritch Knight Fighter:* 

*Spoiler*
Show

AC: 16 (chain mail)

HPs: 12

To-hit mod: +5

CON save: +4

Initiative: +2

Cantrips known: 0

Highest level spell slot: 0

Damage when attacking someone who hasn't acted yet (nova): 4d6+3


*Bugbear (future) War Wizard:*

*Spoiler*
Show

AC: 12, 15 with Mage Armor, 17 with Shield

HPs: 8

To-hit mod: +5 (with attack spells)

ASI spent: none

CON save: +2

Initiative: +2

Cantrips known: 3

Highest level spell slot: 1rst

Damage when attacking someone who hasn't acted yet (nova): 2d8+2d6 (Ray of Sickness)


Bugbear Treantmonk Build (Fighter 1): 

*Spoiler*
Show

AC: 15 (leather armor+ DEX Mod+shield)

HPs: 12

To-hit mod: +4 (rapier or longbow)

CON save: +4

Initiative: +2

Cantrips known: 0

Highest level spell slot: 0

Damage when attacking someone who hasn't acted yet (nova): 1d8+2+2d6



*Level 4:*

*Bugbear Eldritch Knight Fighter:* 

*Spoiler*
Show

AC: 17 (splint armor)

HPs: 36

ASI spent: +1 in STR +1 in INT

To-hit mod: +6

CON save: +4

Initiative: +2

Cantrips known: 3

Highest level spell slot: 1rst

Damage when attacking someone who hasn't acted yet (nova): 8d6+8


*Bugbear War Wizard:*

*Spoiler*
Show

AC: 12, 15 with Mage Armor, 17 with Shield

HPs: 26

To-hit mod: +6 (with attack spells)

ASI spent: Fey Touched (Hex)

CON save: +2

Initiative: +6

Cantrips known: 4

Highest level spell slot: 2nd

Damage when attacking someone who hasn't acted yet (nova): 12d6 (Scorching Ray), 15d6 (Scorching Ray + Hex)



Bugbear Treantmonk Build (Fighter 2/War Wizard 2): 

*Spoiler*
Show

AC: 15 (studded leather armor+ DEX Mod+shield), 20 with Shield 

HPs: 32

To-hit mod: +5 (attack spell)

CON save: +4

Initiative: +6

Cantrips known: 3

Highest level spell slot: 1rst

Damage when attacking someone who hasn't acted yet (nova): 4d8+4d6 (Ray of Sickness x2)



*Level 6:*

*Bugbear Eldritch Knight Fighter:* 

*Spoiler*
Show

AC: 18 (plate armor)

HPs: 52

ASI spent: +1 in STR +1 in INT, Fey Touched (Hex)

To-hit mod: +7

CON save: +5

Initiative: +2

Cantrips known: 4

Highest level spell slot: 1rst

Damage when attacking someone who hasn't acted yet (nova): 16d6+8, 20d6+8 (with Hex)


*Bugbear War Wizard:*
*Spoiler*
Show


AC: 12, 15 with Mage Armor, 17 with Shield

HPs: 38

To-hit mod: +7 (with attack spells)

ASI spent: Fey Touched (Hex)

CON save: +2

Initiative: +7

Cantrips known: 4

Highest level spell slot: 3rd

Damage when attacking someone who hasn't acted yet (nova): 12d6 (Scorching Ray)


*Bugbear Treantmonk Build (Fighter 2/War Wizard 4): 
*
*Spoiler*
Show

AC: 15 (studded leather armor+ DEX Mod+shield), 20 with Shield 

HPs: 48

To-hit mod: +6 (attack spell)

ASI spent: Fey Touched (Hex)

CON save: +5

Initiative: +7

Cantrips known: 4

Highest level spell slot: 2nd

Damage when attacking someone who hasn't acted yet (nova): 24d6 (Scorching Ray 2x), 30d6 (Scorching Ray + Hex 2x)

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## Dork_Forge

There are so many fun ways to take advantage of the Bugbear's abilities that playing 'Wizard with Action Surge' is just... a bit boring imo. Though something I will toss out here that I doubt he covered (I made it through a collective 8ish minutes of the video as a disclaimer, the guy's ad revenue must be impressive):

Fighter 2/War Wizard18 was advertised as Wizard being a 'savior' and giving you good turns whenever you're not nova'ing, but I really doubt that he said in exchange you're just being a worse Wizard. A 2 level noncaster dip heavily delays all progress in a meaningful way and gives you really awkward moments like 'I'm playing a Wizard basically. Well... no I'm not actually a Wizard yet, but I got this bow though' and 'no I don't have anything prepared for this, well actually I don't have that level of spell and I can't prepare that many. Oh no I'm still a Wizard so treat me like a god.'

Personally I'd go with something like:

Fighter (Battlemaster) 6/Gloomstalker 4, being Dex dependent and grabbing alert at 6th, maxing Dex at 10th. The core chassis of the Fighter with maneuvers gives you more than enough to romp through 1-7 and once Ranger actually starts contributing you ramp up at a drastic pace when the game should be getting harder. Depending on taste, once the core of the build is done you can either keep going Fighter or dip Rogue for goodies, Assassin is actually a good choice here since you're both likely to go first and are making a lot of attacks with high damage.

Something fun would be a Monk of some variety, maybe Mercy or Kensei (the latter becoming a surprisingly effective death machine).

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## Wacky89

wow people really have a hate boner for Treantmonk  :Small Confused:

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## Dork_Forge

> wow people really have a hate boner for Treantmonk


Valid criticism of a flawed build that doesn't hold true to the video's premise for no good reason does not a 'hate boner' make. That would be better shown if the video showed a masterclass of optimizing the Bugbear and the thread was still negative towards it.

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## prototype00

Full disclosure, I have no desire to engage in one true wayism or Treantmonk fanboyism, Im more of a rubber-meets-the-road enthusiast, and for that purpose AL is pretty useful.

But a couple of notes/observations:

1. My OP questions got answered elsewhere, to wit, get that second fighter level as soon as you can cast 2 second level spells (level 5 then) and if you find an accuracy boosting spell focus, dump the shield until you pick up Warcaster, as it improves your core schtick. Optimizers dont usually plan for ALs largesse with choose-your-own-magic-items.

2. Im not a mathematician by training, but does it not seem from Unoriginals numbers (which seem legit) that the Fighter2/Wizard 4 build is putting out more damage than the Eldritch Knight by level 6? (Though I do note that there is nothing stopping this multiclass from dressing in Half Plate or even Full Plate if they are okay with eating the mobility penalty, leather is probably not the best for survivability in general), and since Scorching Ray upcasts so well might not the upward trend favor the multiclass over the EK?

Hmm, things to consider in any event.

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## OBoyd

I think Magic Missile would be my go to Spell at levels 3-4. That's 12d6+6d4+6 (+6d6 with Hex). And in many games the Wizards would have the option of Gift of Alacrity as well which puts them 4.5 points ahead on Initiative even if the EK takes Alert.

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## Dork_Forge

> 1. My OP questions got answered elsewhere, to wit, get that second fighter level as soon as you can cast 2 second level spells (level 5 then) and if you find an accuracy boosting spell focus, dump the shield until you pick up Warcaster, as it improves your core schtick. Optimizers dont usually plan for ALs largesse with choose-your-own-magic-items.


Good advice, just don't neglect your Intelligence because you can get an enhanced focus.




> 2. Im not a mathematician by training, but does it not seem from Unoriginals numbers (which seem legit) that the Fighter2/Wizard 4 build is putting out more damage than the Eldritch Knight by level 6? (Though I do note that there is nothing stopping this multiclass from dressing in Half Plate or even Full Plate if they are okay with eating the mobility penalty, leather is probably not the best for survivability in general), and since Scorching Ray upcasts so well might not the upward trend favor the multiclass over the EK?


Stuff about this:

- You shouldn't be attached to Scorching Ray, fire damage is one of the most common resistances/immunities, so whilst it's probably the best spell for Surprise Attack, it's incredibly swingy depending on situation.

- With any build I wouldn't rely, or even pay that much attention to Hex damage if you're reliant on spells. It's going to be far from reliable that it will happen at all.

- I assume the Eldritch Knight is using a greatsword, in which case Unoriginal's numbers are wrong in the conservative department as it only counts two lots of modifier damage. It should be *72* avg for the non-Hex, but since there's nothing stopping you using Hex on that turn (unlike the caster option) Hex damage is more reliable for it. Hex average would be *86*.

The Treanmonk build at 6th level is doing 24d6, or *84* avg. So less, actually. Since that build would be dependent on casting Hex before combat, it's unreliable at best and shouldn't really be considered in comparisons like this. Otherwise you run into sillyness like why can't the EK have Hex precast and build in a bonus action attack.

It's also worth noting that a Battlemaster could nova harder, if that's desired, and GWF can improve damage somewhat, though I'm not confident on that maths nor do I like the style.

Battlemaster instead of EK (same ASIs, weapon, and tactics):

20d6+16+4d8 = *104* avg, but those maneuvers will also have effects. knocking prone makes crits more likely, frightened helps if the monster survives the nova etc.

The only downside to this approach is that the Hex becomes once per long rest, but seeing as it has the potential to last an hour and most fights won't require the hardest of novas, it doesn't really matter. A single-level dip in literally any fullcaster would remedy that issue immediately if desired.




> I think Magic Missile would be my go to Spell at levels 3-4. That's 12d6+6d4+6 (+6d6 with Hex). And in many games the Wizards would have the option of Gift of Alacrity as well which puts them 4.5 points ahead on Initiative even if the EK takes Alert.


Magic Missile doesn't benefit from Hex or Surprise Attack because it isn't an attack roll.

I wouldn't assume Dunamancy spells as standard, especially since I think by the book only the Wizards from those books can use them? It's been a while since I read it, but it's not great to consider spells like that as more than a nice-to-have footnote unless you know it can be used.

Which it can't be in AL.

----------


## Unoriginal

> 1. My OP questions got answered elsewhere, to wit, get that second fighter level as soon as you can cast 2 second level spells (level 5 then)


My apologies that my interventions weren't helpful. I must say, however, isn't playing a Figher 1/Wizard 1-to-4 before you can take the level of Fighter that gets you Action Surge kind of a bummer?




> 2. Im not a mathematician by training, but does it not seem from Unoriginals numbers (which seem legit) that the Fighter2/Wizard 4 build is putting out more damage than the Eldritch Knight by level 6? (Though I do note that there is nothing stopping this multiclass from dressing in Half Plate or even Full Plate if they are okay with eating the mobility penalty, leather is probably not the best for survivability in general), and since Scorching Ray upcasts so well might not the upward trend favor the multiclass over the EK?
> 
> Hmm, things to consider in any event.


I was still working on those numbers as I posted them, so them being wrong/not taking the best choices into account yet is entirely possible. 

I have to point out though that even if the multiclass does deal more damage at certain levels assuming all hit, it doesn't mean that the sacrifices made for that one trick are worthwhile. The goal of comparing the three is to showcase that.




> - I assume the Eldritch Knight is using a greatsword, in which case Unoriginal's numbers are wrong in the conservative department as it only counts two lots of modifier damage.


They are indeed using a greatsword. It is indeed possible I haven't copy/pasted right yet or just miscalculated in my rush to post (by fear of losing all the post).




> It should be *72* avg for the non-Hex, but since there's nothing stopping you using Hex on that turn (unlike the caster option) Hex damage is more reliable for it. Hex average would be *86*.
> 
> The Treanmonk build at 6th level is doing 24d6, or *84* avg. So less, actually. Since that build would be dependent on casting Hex before combat, it's unreliable at best and shouldn't really be considered in comparisons like this. Otherwise you run into sillyness like why can't the EK have Hex precast and build in a bonus action attack.
> 
> It's also worth noting that a Battlemaster could nova harder


Quite true.

The reason I went EK is because I wanted to show that a relatively unoptimized Fighter still arrived within a stone throw's distance of the one trick (aka, bugbear big nova damage) that Treantmonk's build is built around (since being an Eldritch Knight does not actually contribute to the nova damage using those feats and spells).

That becomes even more apparent at lvl 12, where the Figther 2/War Wizard 10 multiclass may deal more damage if everything hits but given they have a *lot* less accuracy and their initiative isn't the best anymore, they're unlikely to actually deliver.

----------


## prototype00

> My apologies that my interventions weren't helpful. I must say, however, isn't playing a Figher 1/Wizard 1-to-4 before you can take the level of Fighter that gets you Action Surge kind of a bummer?


Its actually Wiz 3 where you get two 2nd level spell slots, so as I said, you can start nova-ing at 5 (granted you dont have your ASI yet).

As for feel? I guess. Its the same for most builds that take a while to get running. Ive played multis that take longer (Beast Barb/Soulknife for example)




> That becomes even more apparent at lvl 12, where the Figther 2/War Wizard 10 multiclass may deal more damage if everything hits but given they have a *lot* less accuracy and their initiative isn't the best anymore, they're unlikely to actually deliver.


This I am confused about, why would the accuracy be lower given Ive already said that in AL I can nudge things to get a +2 Accuracy spell foci, just like the Fighter can get a +2 weapon?

And on the initiative side, does not the War Wizard add their Int to initiative? So thats +3 (Dex) + 5 (Int) for a +8 base Initiative and both classes are equally likely to take the Alert feat or spring for a Weapon of Warning?

Edit: Just realized at high tier you can get a +4 bonus to hit with Warcaster if you bi-foci with a Staff of Power and a Wand of the War Mage, lol. (This is mostly daydreaming at this point to be sure)

----------


## Unoriginal

> Its actually Wiz 3 where you get two 2nd level spell slots, so as I said, you can start nova-ing at 5 (granted you dont have your ASI yet).


Ah, I misread you then. My bad.




> As for feel? I guess. Its the same for most builds that take a while to get running. Ive played multis that take longer (Beast Barb/Soulknife for example)


More than fair.




> This I am confused about, why would the accuracy be lower given Ive already said that in AL I can nudge things to get a +2 Accuracy spell foci, just like the Fighter can get a +2 weapon?


It's possible that the multiclass and the Fighter both start with a 17, being MoM Bugbear, and the multiclass can get a +3 from Fey Touched + one ASI in INT, in which case sure the Figher and the multiclass are likely tied for accuracy.  

But since the Eldritch Knight would have 4 ASIs at lvl 12, and the multiclass would have 2, it means that this:




> And on the initiative side, does not the War Wizard add their Int to initiative? So thats +3 (Dex) + 5 (Int) for a +8 base Initiative and both classes are equally likely to take the Alert feat or spring for a Weapon of Warning?


Isn't really possible outside of Point Buy. Multiclass build will have to choose between either the Alert feat, a +3 DEX or a +5 INT.  

With Point Buy, Multiclass can have +3 DEX, +5 INT and Fey Touched, but the Fighter can still have +5 STR, Fey Touched, Alert and +3 DEX, meaning they're tying again.

Does AL let you have both a Weapon of Warning and a +2 accuracy focus/weapon at that level?





> Edit: Just realized at high tier you can get a +4 bonus to hit with Warcaster if you bi-foci with a Staff of Power and a Wand of the War Mage, lol. (This is mostly daydreaming at this point to be sure)


I don't think you can use two focuses and get the bonuses from both on the same casting.

----------


## prototype00

> It's possible that the multiclass and the Fighter both start with a 17, being MoM Bugbear, and the multiclass can get a +3 from Fey Touched + one ASI in INT, in which case sure the Figher and the multiclass are likely tied for accuracy.  
> 
> But since the Eldritch Knight would have 4 ASIs at lvl 12, and the multiclass would have 2, it means that this:
> 
> Isn't really possible outside of Point Buy. Multiclass build will have to choose between either the Alert feat, a +3 DEX or a +5 INT.


Indeed true, multiclassing delays ASIs, this I acknowledge.




> With Point Buy, Multiclass can have +3 DEX, +5 INT and Fey Touched, but the Fighter can still have +5 STR, Fey Touched, Alert and +4 DEX, unless I'm mistaken.


 yes, but that is a strange build for a fighter is it not, investing so heavily in both Str and Dex like that? I mean if its to prove a point, sure, but I probably would have focused either Str or Dex. (Yay for the meta!) Fighter also gets those extra ASIs so honestly even a pure classed Wizard is not going to catch up ever, and especially by lvl 12.




> Does AL let you have both a Weapon of Warning and a +2 accuracy focus/weapon?


If you DM, AL lets you trade in DM-ed hours to get (broadly speaking) any item that has featured in any AL module and/or hardcover to give to your character. (Number held limited by tier of play, 1 magic item T1, 3 T2, 6 T3, 12 T4)

Since AL has been around and putting out mods about as long as 5e has been around well thats basically every magic item barring the most recent ones you can pick from like Fitzbans.

The simple answer is yes.

----------


## Gignere

> Ah, I misread you then. My bad.
> 
> 
> 
> More than fair.
> 
> 
> 
> It's possible that the multiclass and the Fighter both start with a 17, being MoM Bugbear, and the multiclass can get a +3 from Fey Touched + one ASI in INT, in which case sure the Figher and the multiclass are likely tied for accuracy.  
> ...


You cant use two foci at the same time but both staff of power and wand of war mage gives you the bonus to spell attack rolls just by attuning and holding them. You dont need to use them as a focus to get the bonus.

----------


## prototype00

> You cant use two foci at the same time but both staff of power and wand of war mage gives you the bonus to spell attack rolls just by attuning and holding them. You dont need to use them as a focus to get the bonus.


Right. Thats what I was referring to, but you need Warcaster to sub for Somatic components as both your hands are otherwise occupied (the Staff of Power is a weapon, so it qualifies for Warcaster) since you need to wield both the staff and the wand to get the bonus.

----------


## Dork_Forge

> They are indeed using a greatsword. It is indeed possible I haven't copy/pasted right yet or just miscalculated in my rush to post (by fear of losing all the post).


I've been there, my PC crashes 2-3 times a day, often when writing a longer post.





> The reason I went EK is because I wanted to show that a relatively unoptimized Fighter still arrived within a stone throw's distance of the one trick (aka, bugbear big nova damage) that Treantmonk's build is built around (since being an Eldritch Knight does not actually contribute to the nova damage using those feats and spells).
> 
> That becomes even more apparent at lvl 12, where the Figther 2/War Wizard 10 multiclass may deal more damage if everything hits but given they have a *lot* less accuracy and their initiative isn't the best anymore, they're unlikely to actually deliver.


Ohh, a very good point to illustrate. The TM build is far from the ceiling of the Bugbear, even without really pushing it you can eclipse it. I haven't done all the numbers, but I feel like an EK could go even further with Shadow Blade. You lose Hex, but you open up adding a flat +2 from Dueling and from 13th level can upcast it for 3d8.

The TM is stretching itself pretty thin by the time 12th level comes around, to the point where a straight War Wizard is arguably the better choice most of the time.




> This I am confused about, why would the accuracy be lower given Ive already said that in AL I can nudge things to get a +2 Accuracy spell foci, just like the Fighter can get a +2 weapon?


Besides the Fighter being able to max their main stat faster, it's just easier to increase accuracy with weapons than it is spells.




> And on the initiative side, does not the War Wizard add their Int to initiative? So thats +3 (Dex) + 5 (Int) for a +8 base Initiative and both classes are equally likely to take the Alert feat or spring for a Weapon of Warning?


The build isn't getting +5 Int for a long time and there's no reason why the fighter should have the same Weapon of Warning boost if it's on the table.

Realistically, the Fighter can afford a higher initiative for a lot of the progression.




> Edit: Just realized at high tier you can get a +4 bonus to hit with Warcaster if you bi-foci with a Staff of Power and a Wand of the War Mage, lol. (This is mostly daydreaming at this point to be sure)


Nothing wrong with whimsical ambition.




> Indeed true, multiclassing delays ASIs, this I acknowledge.


It does, but it's also that the Fighter just straight has more of them and the TM build seems very dependent on ASIs, where as the Fighter has an abundance to spend to close any gaps.





> yes, but that is a strange build for a fighter is it not, investing so heavily in both Str and Dex like that? I mean if its to prove a point, sure, but I probably would have focused either Str or Dex. (Yay for the meta!) Fighter also gets those extra ASIs so honestly even a pure classed Wizard is not going to catch up ever, and especially by lvl 12.


Not really, it's thematically appropriate that a physically impressive warrior have a good Dex and the mechanical benefits of having it are numerous.

Anecdotally, one of my games has a BM Fighter with a +5 Strength and +3 Dexterity, it's allowed him to switch to a bow when needed and between that and Alert gives him an impressive initiative. If he was a Bugbear he'd actually be pretty optimised for the discussion, but he's a dragonborn and just how the player made him.




> If you DM, AL lets you trade in DM-ed hours to get (broadly speaking) any item that has featured in any AL module and/or hardcover to give to your character. (Number held limited by tier of play, 1 magic item T1, 3 T2, 6 T3, 12 T4)
> 
> Since AL has been around and putting out mods about as long as 5e has been around well thats basically every magic item barring the most recent ones you can pick from like Fitzbans.
> 
> The simple answer is yes.


It would have been nice to have this explanation earlier, but given that this is an option I really don't see why the Wizard option is appealing from a damage perspective. You could just get a flametongue weapon and heap another laundry basket of d6s onto it, then you'd actually be able to use Long Limbed, since the Bugbear is more than just Surprise Attack.


Ultimately a really easy answer is just to play a Gloomstalker, it naturally excels in all aspects of abusing Surprise Attack in how it normally functions and was just dismissed out of hand by TM because he didn't want to do it.

----------


## Witty Username

> Curiosity got the better of me and... why is that video 50 minutes long and most importantly _why is he making a build that is not aiming for the title of the video?_
> 
> Seriously, I thought the video was making a blaster with a Bugbear, which fine, but it's just optimizing the Bugbear. To which he then ruled out Gloom Stalker (which he even said was the best option) because he didn't want to use it, and he discounted a Sorlock because he just made one.


Treatment does his builds level by level, usually 1-20, but sometimes he will stop at 14-15 if the build has no additional options of note. That contributes to most of the length. 

As for this build, he was making a video discussing bugbear and whether or not gloomstalker was the only optimized way of going about it, I think he mentioned warlock and it ended up being less effective than gloomstalker by enough that he wasn't satisfied with it, hence war wizard (win initiative, upcast scorching ray, action surge for a very potent round 1) I don't recall the video well, it came out and I watched it months ago, but I am pretty sure alert was part of the build.


Edit: What would sorcerer add to this build? Metamagic doesn't give you much here, and doesn't give the initiative bonus which winning initiative is nessasary for the build.

----------


## prototype00

> Treatment does his builds level by level, usually 1-20, but sometimes he will stop at 14-15 if the build has no additional options of note. That contributes to most of the length. 
> 
> As for this build, he was making a video discussing bugbear and whether or not gloomstalker was the only optimized way of going about it, I think he mentioned warlock and it ended up being less effective than gloomstalker by enough that he wasn't satisfied with it, hence war wizard (win initiative, upcast scorching ray, action surge for a very potent round 1) I don't recall the video well, it came out and I watched it months ago, but I am pretty sure alert was part of the build.


Alert was indeed part of the build, right after it hit max int.




> Edit: What would sorcerer add to this build? Metamagic doesn't give you much here, and doesn't give the initiative bonus which winning initiative is nessasary for the build.


I ask myself that question too, and asked it here. Im guessing the idea is to go Sorlock on top of fighter so that you can quicken Eldritch Blast and cast it three times in succession? But spell prog is delayed horribly in that event.

I admit, I wanted to ask some questions here, like is Scribes Wizard better if you pick Alert early so that your Scorching Ray nova burst is always applicable, but I also didnt want to have to fight through thick piles of anti-Treantmonk bias, just to get something mechanical answered, so I decamped to more neutral internet arenas for discussion.

----------


## Witty Username

> I admit, I wanted to ask some questions here, like is Scribes Wizard better if you pick Alert early so that your Scorching Ray nova burst is always applicable, but I also didnt want to have to fight through thick piles of anti-Treantmonk bias, just to get something mechanical answered, so I decamped to more neutral internet arenas for discussion.


Scribes gives a more reliable damage burst,
Stacking tactical wit and Alert gives a very relable initiative.
Since the goal is optimize bugbear's surpise specifically, going first is nessasary for that. +5 initiative isn't going to be that much for winning against high dex opponents alone. Stacking for a +10 initiative before dex bonuses is going to me much more reliable for that.

It depends on what you are expecting more, enemies with 16+ dex or fire Immunity. Or if you have a watcher paladin friend.

----------


## Unoriginal

> IÂ admit, I wanted to ask some questions here, like is Scribes Wizard better if you pick Alert early so that your Scorching Ray nova burst is always applicable, but I also didnÂt want to have to fight through thick piles of anti-Treantmonk bias, just to get something mechanical answered, so I decamped to moreÂ neutral internet arenas for discussion.


I don't see how a "what if I do not follow Treantmonk's build and do X instead?" question would mean you'd have to "fight through thick piles of anti-Treantmonk bias". Doing that is litterally a piece of advice I gave on page 1, even if you consider me too biased for me talking about Treantmonk to be worth anything.

(I want to mention, even if you probably don't believe me, I never assume a build is bad because Treantmonk made it, and analyse the work as objectively as I can.)

For the pro/con analysis of Scribe Wizard, I think Witty Username hit bullseye here, but with a caveat: if you have DEX 16 and Alert, you're much more likely to encounters enemies that are resistant/immune to fire than enemies who can realiably beat your +8 to Initiative.

So all in all I would day Scribe+Alert is better as long as your build has high DEX, but War Wzard+Alert+high DEX would have basically unbeatable Initiative before applying magic items.

As for the Sorcerer thing, I'm not sure, but I think it's about using the Transmute Spell and maybe the Quicken Spell metamagics to add to the pile of damage and maie sure the damage type hurts.

----------


## prototype00

> I don't see how a "what if I do not follow Treantmonk's build and do X instead?" question would mean you'd have to "fight through thick piles of anti-Treantmonk bias". Doing that is litterally a piece of advice I gave on page 1, even if you consider me too biased for me talking about Treantmonk to be worth anything.
> 
> (I want to mention, even if you probably don't believe me, I never assume a build is bad because Treantmonk made it, and analyse the work as objectively as I can.)


Understood and thanks for the answers. Please understand, Im not pointing fingers, but it was just kind of tiring to sift through the 101 ways Treantmonk is wrong/other builds are so much better to get to the actual part I was interested in. 

Im not a Treantmonk apologist personally, if I was I wouldnt be playing a Bugbear Monk in AL currently, but I just thought this might be an interesting concept (as Ive done all the other Gloomstalker stuff).




> For the pro/con analysis of Scribe Wizard, I think Witty Username hit bullseye here, but with a caveat: if you have DEX 16 and Alert, you're much more likely to encounters enemies that are resistant/immune to fire than enemies who can realiably beat your +8 to Initiative.
> 
> So all in all I would day Scribe+Alert is better as long as your build has high DEX, but War Wzard+Alert+high DEX would have basically unbeatable Initiative before applying magic items.


Ah interesting. I was intending to have +3 Dex, so the absolute winner is unclear.




> As for the Sorcerer thing, I'm not sure, but I think it's about using the Transmute Spell and maybe the Quicken Spell metamagics to add to the pile of damage and maie sure the damage type hurts.


Ah, fair. Quicken is an odd beast, I dont know whether it helps as much as it hinders. You definitely wont be pulling off two Scorching rays in a round with it.

----------


## Unoriginal

> Understood and thanks for the answers. Please understand, Im not pointing fingers, but it was just kind of tiring to sift through the 101 ways Treantmonk is wrong/other builds are so much better to get to the actual part I was interested in.


More than fair.




> Ah interesting. I was intending to have +3 Dex, so the absolute winner is unclear.


I would say the definitive winner is Scribe, given that you are guaranteed to get a Weapon of Warning.

Why I'm saying that:

War Wizard + Alert + high DEX + Weapon of Warning = no one can beat you in Initiative, but if you're facing enemies resistant to fire your tactic's efficiency is greatly reduced and if you're facing enemies immune to fire you can't use it at all.

Scribe Wizard + Alert + high DEX + Weapon of Warning = It's possible that once in a blue moon you roll badly in Initiative and one of your foes roll amazing when they have high DEX, but if those three things don't happen all at once you will win Initiative, and you can entirely bypass the enemies that are resistant/immune to fire which would normally be a major hindrance. 

In other words, Scribe Wizard makes the tactic be always useful no matter what you face, at the cost of the *possibility* you're not winning Initiative against a few high DEX enemies if the dice are against you, while War Wizard guarantee you will win Initiative at the cost that it also guarantee you can't use your tactic against a fair share of enemies (with even more enemies who will make the tactic usable but way less efficient).

----------


## Gignere

> More than fair.
> 
> 
> 
> I would say the definitive winner is Scribe, given that you are guaranteed to get a Weapon of Warning.
> 
> Why I'm saying that:
> 
> War Wizard + Alert + high DEX + Weapon of Warning = no one can beat you in Initiative, but if you're facing enemies resistant to fire your tactic's efficiency is greatly reduced and if you're facing enemies immune to fire you can't use it at all.
> ...


Remember to learn Dragons Breath and Shadow Blade/Phantasmal Force. With these two spells you should be able to overcome almost any type of enemies short of those that just take 1/2 magical damage.

----------


## prototype00

> More than fair.
> 
> 
> 
> I would say the definitive winner is Scribe, given that you are guaranteed to get a Weapon of Warning.
> 
> Why I'm saying that:
> 
> War Wizard + Alert + high DEX + Weapon of Warning = no one can beat you in Initiative, but if you're facing enemies resistant to fire your tactic's efficiency is greatly reduced and if you're facing enemies immune to fire you can't use it at all.
> ...


Ah, I hadnt looked at it that way. You are right, why should I not leverage the benefits the benefits when I can choose to give myself a Whip of Warning on top of the Ambush Maneuver (chosen via fighting Style) when I want it.




> Remember to learn Dragons Breath and Shadow Blade/Phantasmal Force. With these two spells you should be able to overcome almost any type of enemies short of those that just take 1/2 magical damage.


Someone put together a handy table of spells sorted by energy type and level (in case you want to upcast force Scorching Ray) just for this purpose.

At around level 8 you can also manifest your spellbook and send it around as a drone for an alpha strike (spells can originate from it prof bonus times per day and it can move 300ft from you) while you hide which I found amusing.

----------


## 8wGremlin

Could do this with Fighter/Druid (wildfire) as well, fyi

----------


## Unoriginal

> Could do this with Fighter/Druid (wildfire) as well, fyi


True, but Wildfire Druid grants neither the Initiative bonus of War Wizard nor the damage-type-swapping of Scribe Wizard, and the elemental summon doesn't synergize with the Bugbear perks.


Still an interesting option, but not one that makes the build better at what it's meant to do.

----------


## 8wGremlin

> True, but Wildfire Druid grants neither the Initiative bonus of War Wizard nor the damage-type-swapping of Scribe Wizard, and the elemental summon doesn't synergize with the Bugbear perks.
> 
> Still an interesting option, but not one that makes the build better at what it's meant to do.


True, I was thinking just more damage from the bonus action to command the wildfire spirit, but you have to have it pre summoned.

----------


## Aimeryan

> I wouldn't assume Dunamancy spells as standard, especially since I think by the book only the Wizards from those books can use them? It's been a while since I read it, but it's not great to consider spells like that as more than a nice-to-have footnote unless you know it can be used.
> 
> Which it can't be in AL.


Does AL still have that book limit thing?

In regards to Gift of Alacrity, outside of AL, you can grab it via Fey Touched - there is no restriction on class list. Another contender for initiative to put into the mix is the Watcher Paladin - this IS a group game, after all. Actually, for that matter, someone else could rest cast Gift of Alacrity on you...

---

In regards to TM builds, the way I look at it is that he comes up with some theme and then checks what he hasn't used recently that might fit there. I don't think they are meant to be optimised outside of those conditions. Kind of like a chef that has some leftovers after preparing a meal and then figures out what they can do with them.

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## prototype00

> Does AL still have that book limit thing?


PhB+1 got done away with two years ago, currently its all AL legal sources.

Edit: AL also recently implemented the free feat at character creation that Spelljammer and Dragonlance have (it comes from your background), limited to Tough, Skilled and Magic Initiate. Usually I like to choose Tough for my characters, but in this case Magic Initiate (Cleric) for guidance to boost Initiative occasionally would be useful, I think.

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## JNAProductions

> PhB+1 got done away with two years ago, currently its all AL legal sources.
> 
> Edit: AL also recently implemented the free feat at character creation that Spelljammer and Dragonlance have (it comes from your background), limited to Tough, Skilled and Magic Initiate. Usually I like to choose Tough for my characters, but in this case Magic Initiate (Cleric) for guidance to boost Initiative occasionally would be useful, I think.


That'd require you to know combat is coming up within the next minute, use an action on _Guidance_, not make any other ability checks before combat starts...

It's not impossible to use _Guidance_ in that way, but it ain't easy.

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## prototype00

> That'd require you to know combat is coming up within the next minute, use an action on _Guidance_, not make any other ability checks before combat starts...
> 
> It's not impossible to use _Guidance_ in that way, but it ain't easy.


From personal experience, most DMs just give you a nod if you say "I'm refreshing Guidance from now." if you aren't sneaking around.

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## Witty Username

So, it sounds like no one has actually said how this build works explicitly.

So I will give the quick run down:
Example slice of the character
11th level
Fighter 2/war wizard 9
If we win initiative
Action surge plus scorching ray using 2, 5th level slots
That is 6 rays each for a total of 12 attacks, or
48d6 damage, or 168 damage before we factor accuracy
Or being conservative, 2 3rd level slots
4 rays each, for 8 attacks
32d6 or 112 damage before we factor accuracy

We also have power surges from war wizard to bump damage I guess but its not alot.

The goal of this is that we are a wizard primarily, but if we win initiative, we can dump a couple slots and slaughter the combat.

The alternative is something like:
Gloomstalker 5/battlemaster 6? 
If we win initiative
Action surge for 2 attack actions for something like 6 attacks, 7 if we are using a hand crossbow
So something like
21d6 + 2d8 + 35 or 117.5 damage before accuracy 

Sharpshooter could carry this over with something like precision attack, but we are taking an accuracy hit to do that.

As the gloomstalker we have better overall damage but worst burst in that first round (unless the wizard has burned through their 4th and 5th level spell slots). Also, while we have 3 feats we are unlikely to fit alert on the build, and 20 dex and crossbow expert and sharpshooter. Meaning we are much less likely to win initiative at this level or we need to drop things that reduce our damage the rest of the time.

As we go up in level as the wizard, upcasting scorching ray will continue an option as needed, but we will have other spells and abilities if we don't win initiative or we need to bring something other than single target damage.

Gloomstalker is still probably the best option for bugbear, but there is other nonsense to be had.

----------


## Aimeryan

> As the gloomstalker we have better overall damage but worst burst in that first round (unless the wizard has burned through their 4th and 5th level spell slots). Also, while we have 3 feats we are unlikely to fit alert on the build, and 20 dex and crossbow expert and sharpshooter. Meaning we are much less likely to win initiative at this level or we need to drop things that reduce our damage the rest of the time.


It would depend on party composition. You can still get Gift of Alacrity's +d8 and Watcher's +proficiency from party members with pseudo-no-resource cost (rest casting) or action cost to them. They are both near 100% reliable that you will have them too if the party has them at all. Paladins are popular enough and Watchers is one of the best (I would argue THE best) subclass, and Gift can be got through Fey Touched for many casters.

Gloomstalker already has something like +8 initiative, add d8 (+4.5 avr), add +2 to +6, you are going to win practically all initiative against enemies. Pass Without Trace is also a consideration here, although it doesn't affect Bugbear itself (realistically, you should have at least advantage on an initiative roll if you are attacking from surprise, weird 5e).

----------


## Dork_Forge

> Treatment does his builds level by level, usually 1-20, but sometimes he will stop at 14-15 if the build has no additional options of note. That contributes to most of the length. 
> 
> As for this build, he was making a video discussing bugbear and whether or not gloomstalker was the only optimized way of going about it, I think he mentioned warlock and it ended up being less effective than gloomstalker by enough that he wasn't satisfied with it, hence war wizard (win initiative, upcast scorching ray, action surge for a very potent round 1) I don't recall the video well, it came out and I watched it months ago, but I am pretty sure alert was part of the build.


I didn't watch most of it, but I did mostly watch the opening:

The video was meant to be optimizing the Bugbear, he went through some options and reasoned why he didn't use them. Gloomstalker was simply because he does it a lot apparently, and Sorlock was because it was the last build. Then he settled on basically just using a Wizard and ignoring Long-Limbed because Bugbear=Surprise Attack.





> Edit: What would sorcerer add to this build? Metamagic doesn't give you much here, and doesn't give the initiative bonus which winning initiative is nessasary for the build.





> I ask myself that question too, and asked it here. Im guessing the idea is to go Sorlock on top of fighter so that you can quicken Eldritch Blast and cast it three times in succession? But spell prog is delayed horribly in that event.


Sorcerer gives you:

- Twinning and Quickening for normal Sorc shenanigans
- The ability to easily swap out the damage type of Scorching Ray according to what you're fighting
- The ability to switch around your slots to maximise the gimick 
- MC's well with Warlock for the EB/AB trick, which works exceptionally well with Surprise Attack and scales with character level
- Different subclasses to boost you otherwise. Draconic for Cha mod, Divine Soul for accuracy boost etc.
- A more generally useful primary stat




> I admit, I wanted to ask some questions here, like is Scribes Wizard better if you pick Alert early so that your Scorching Ray nova burst is always applicable, but I also didnt want to have to fight through thick piles of anti-Treantmonk bias, just to get something mechanical answered, so I decamped to more neutral internet arenas for discussion.





> Understood and thanks for the answers. Please understand, Im not pointing fingers, but it was just kind of tiring to sift through the 101 ways Treantmonk is wrong/other builds are so much better to get to the actual part I was interested in. 
> 
> Im not a Treantmonk apologist personally, if I was I wouldnt be playing a Bugbear Monk in AL currently, but I just thought this might be an interesting concept (as Ive done all the other Gloomstalker stuff).


I hope I didn't contribute to that, though I suspect I did and I apologise for putting you off.

If you're just interested in answers to your questions and nothing more, I'd suggest in future to actually post the build and conditions you're working with, rather than linking to a long video.




> Does AL still have that book limit thing?
> 
> In regards to Gift of Alacrity, outside of AL, you can grab it via Fey Touched - there is no restriction on class list. Another contender for initiative to put into the mix is the Watcher Paladin - this IS a group game, after all. Actually, for that matter, someone else could rest cast Gift of Alacrity on you...


It has a list of approved books, the CR book isn't on it, so you just can't choose those spells.




> In regards to TM builds, the way I look at it is that he comes up with some theme and then checks what he hasn't used recently that might fit there. I don't think they are meant to be optimised outside of those conditions. Kind of like a chef that has some leftovers after preparing a meal and then figures out what they can do with them.


I can completely respect that, but that wasn't the given premise of the video _*shrug*_




> From personal experience, most DMs just give you a nod if you say "I'm refreshing Guidance from now." if you aren't sneaking around.


Worth remembering that locks you out of walking into encounters with other concentration effects up.




> So, it sounds like no one has actually said how this build works explicitly.
> 
> So I will give the quick run down:
> Example slice of the character
> 11th level
> Fighter 2/war wizard 9
> If we win initiative
> Action surge plus scorching ray using 2, 5th level slots
> That is 6 rays each for a total of 12 attacks, or
> ...


You can't use two 5th level slots, at 11th level the build only has 1. So ignoring accuracy, using one 5th, one 4th, and the free Power Surge the nova for the TM build at 11th looks like:

44d6+4= *158 avg.*




> The alternative is something like:
> Gloomstalker 5/battlemaster 6? 
> If we win initiative
> Action surge for 2 attack actions for something like 6 attacks, 7 if we are using a hand crossbow
> So something like
> 21d6 + 2d8 + 35 or 117.5 damage before accuracy 
> 
> Sharpshooter could carry this over with something like precision attack, but we are taking an accuracy hit to do that.


There's no real benefit for this to take Gloom to 5 and double dipping Extra Attack, personally I'd leave Gloom at 4th. I also wouldn't bother with crossbow expert, instead, if you want to do this ranged, using a longbow and Hunter's Mark, which means:

Bonus action Hunter's Mark, Action Surge Attack for:

8d8+30+18d6 = *129 avg.* Which is better, but not quite cutting the mustard in comparison, right? But we're talking about going nova and the Fighter is currently subclassless and the build has one unspent ASI. So let's do the same thing, but dump assume Battle Master, Superior Technique as our second style, and dump all SD into maneuvers that add damage:

13d8+30+18d6= *151.5 avg.* well, now that's spitting distance! Take Martial Adept for another SD to close the gap, or Piercer. And then there are the effects of the SD.

The reality of these damage numbers are going to be very different, with the Gloom build having superior accuracy and a higher damage floor (thanks to all that Dex mod), with a reasonable chance for advantage from the invisibility ability.




> As the gloomstalker we have better overall damage but worst burst in that first round (unless the wizard has burned through their 4th and 5th level spell slots). Also, while we have 3 feats we are unlikely to fit alert on the build, and 20 dex and crossbow expert and sharpshooter. Meaning we are much less likely to win initiative at this level or we need to drop things that reduce our damage the rest of the time.


You don't need CBE or SS, so affording Alert is entirely possible if wanted.




> As we go up in level as the wizard, upcasting scorching ray will continue an option as needed, but we will have other spells and abilities if we don't win initiative or we need to bring something other than single target damage.


Yes, but it'd be very important to deal with the fire damage issue, at the very least grabbing Elemental Adept would be really worth it.




> Gloomstalker is still probably the best option for bugbear, but there is other nonsense to be had.


I'd agree with this, I think the best option is probably a monstrous multiclass to take advantage of front-loading. Off the top of my head Gloom 4, Fighter 12 as a base and then grabbing something else with the 4 remaining. Rogue something would be nice for the Sneak Attack dump, Swash giving another modifier to Initiative, Assassin giving advantage on all those attacks etc.

----------


## Witty Username

Oh, I was thinking spels held the 2 at first level you get them, my mistake.
So it would be 4+5, until 12h, 4+5 is probably more reliable anyway, and you can do that more times per day than when 5+5 would be posible.

Ah, I figured gloomstalker to 5 to not delay extra attack
So at like 8,
Gloomstalker 4/fighter 4
The 8 level burst will be a robust
4 attacks in the first round....
And 1 the rest of the time.

Gloomstalker 5 fighter 2
Gets the 6 attacks
So my thoughts are
Gloomstalker 5 is the much better play in tier 2, assuming leading gloomstalker because it is the stronger tier 1 for its level 3 abilities.
Leading fighter 5 into gloomstalker 4 gets us there though.


As for why Treantmonk didn't do gloomstalker + fighter, everyone already knew about it, so he was more interested exploring other options.

Sorlock was mentioned but its numbers weren't by his reckoning all that interesting, generally lower across the board than gloomstalker and the burst potential was generally less as well (I think it passed over by level 17ish, but that wasn't considered relevant to most playgroups). His assessment was more or less bugbear doesn't give much to Sorlock and Sorlock doesn't give much to bugbear. Also, no bonuses to initiative, so the burst was also unreliable.

Action surge + war wizard has the initiative bonuses and the surge plus scorching ray could provide very powerful burst options by tier 3. Damage is generally less than gloomstalker fighter but that wasn't considered a large concern as the idea was alternatives to gloomstalker fighter, and it having options to contribute to the game with other effects was thought to be why one might be considering alternatives.

Edit: Quick note, by accuracy I assume you mean archery style? So a 10% change to accuracy and nothing else.

----------


## Dork_Forge

> Oh, I was thinking spels held the 2 at first level you get them, my mistake.
> So it would be 4+5, until 12h, 4+5 is probably more reliable anyway, and you can do that more times per day than when 5+5 would be posible.
> 
> Ah, I figured gloomstalker to 5 to not delay extra attack
> So at like 8,
> Gloomstalker 4/fighter 4
> The 8 level burst will be a robust
> 4 attacks in the first round....
> And 1 the rest of the time.
> ...


My personal preference for this build, assuming that the game actually goes high enough for this to be relevant, would be Fighter 6 then Gloom 4. If it's not going to go to higher levels, then I would go Gloom 5, Fighter 4. It's entirely dependent on the campaign length.

For the record his progression was Fighter 1, Wizard 5, Fighter 2, Wizard X. So his proposed build isn't getting Action Surge off until 7th character level, meaning competing against it throughout Tier 1 and early 2 is actually really easy for no reason but wanting 3rd level spells.




> As for why Treantmonk didn't do gloomstalker + fighter, everyone already knew about it, so he was more interested exploring other options.
> 
> Sorlock was mentioned but its numbers weren't by his reckoning all that interesting, generally lower across the board than gloomstalker and the burst potential was generally less as well (I think it passed over by level 17ish, but that wasn't considered relevant to most playgroups). His assessment was more or less bugbear doesn't give much to Sorlock and Sorlock doesn't give much to bugbear. Also, no bonuses to initiative, so the burst was also unreliable.


This will probably be the last time I address the video's faulty logic:

Title: "Optimizing the new BUGBEAR: D&D 5e" But just focuses on Surprise Attack

Preamble: "The consensus is Gloom/Fighter/Assassin, but I want to know if that's the only build worth while"

So, a bit of a diversion from the title, but sure. Then the overwhelming majority of the video is focused on a single build, that's basically just 'play a Wizard.' That is not finding out other worthwhile builds, nor is it optimizing the race to its full potential.

His assessment of Sorlock wasn't that it doesn't give much, and that would be an incorrect statement if he did make it. It was that winning initiative was a bit harder, but he then pointed to subclasses that would help with that and said I literally just did a Sorlock as my last build, so I'm not doing it again.

It is very easy to come away from the video as it's presented as 'this is the best way' especially when he spends about 40 minutes on the Wizard build and a combined 6 minutes quick fire dismissing things. 

Where he loses credibility in an exercise about optimizing, is where he arbitrarily dismisses things because he's done similar before. It's like not wanting to answer A to to questions in a row on a test, that doesn't mean that the second A is a wrong answer. The mismatch of title and content is another thing that annoys me, since he's actually trying to optimise Surprise Attack.

I'm not going to touch on the video or reasoning again, I feel that he could have delivered the spirit of what he wanted in a much more concise, balanced way. One that quickly highlighted a few different builds to actually show options, for example.




> Edit: Quick note, by accuracy I assume you mean archery style? So a 10% change to accuracy and nothing else.


That and if desired precision attack, Archery alone makes a significant difference on so many attacks. It's worth bearing in mind that this is amplified by the TM build postponing it's ASIs more than the Fighter/Gloom built, so until 10th level you're also dealing with a lower primary stat at different levels.

----------


## Witty Username

So figher 6 vs wizard 5 effectively?
So that would be
Fighter, 4 attacks with action surge vs
Wizard with 4 attacks from scorching ray.
So, by surprise gains, the builds are the same at that point
There is the note of accuracy from the archery style, but as we are looking at war wizard, initiative is going to be double the fighter's so we are much more likely to actually win initiative and get that extra damage
(Sure you can have Ambush, but that is an option for both builds through superior technique)

Wizard 5 fighter 2
Wizard with action surge 6-8 attacks depending on slot use
Vs fighter 6 ranger 1
4 attacks with action surge, no changes to the attack line

That doesn't look like the Wizard going to 5 before action surge, is doing badly in tier 2, it looks like it is keeping rough parity with fighter. It looks like going wizard 5 is in fact the right call for the specifics of this build, not something that is lol random.

----------


## Dork_Forge

> So figher 6 vs wizard 5 effectively?
> So that would be
> Fighter, 4 attacks with action surge vs
> Wizard with 4 attacks from scorching ray.
> So, by surprise gains, the builds are the same at that point


I think you're comparing them both at 6th level, if that's the case then no, they're not the same:

Fighter 6 (no subclass): 4d8+16+8d6 = *62 avg*

Fighter 1/Wizard 5: 16d6 = *56 avg*

That's with one unspent ASI and no subclass, max Dex and the Fighter pulls even further ahead (66 vs 56). Use any subclass damage at all and the Figher pulls ahead even more.

Since the whole point of the builds is to make the most of Surprise Attack, let's take a look at a Battle Master grabbing Alert instead of maxing Dex:

8d8+8d6+16 = 80 avg.

Assuming that the fire type isn't an issue, the Wizard is still doing less damage with lower to hit. Is it _bad_? No, but it's not as good as the Fighter option. It's also worth noting that +X weapons will impact damage more than a +X focus usually, thanks to the flat damage bump.




> There is the note of accuracy from the archery style, but as we are looking at war wizard, initiative is going to be double the fighter's so we are much more likely to actually win initiative and get that extra damage
> (Sure you can have Ambush, but that is an option for both builds through superior technique)


No, it won't be double the Fighter's.

War Wizard: Init +7

Fighter w/ Alert: Init +9

Fighter w/ 20 Dex: Init +5

Even on the Fighter that didn't take Alert at 6, it's a far cry from double. And since the point is making the most of Bugbear, I don't see why you wouldn't take Alert by 6 on a Fighter.

Also, a Battle Master gets more mileage out of Ambush. The Wizard will only ever have a d6, the BM has a d8 and this will increase later in the levels.

Unless Dunamancy spells are on the table, which they aren't for AL, the War Wizard build doesn't have the potential for better initiative. The Gloom levels cancels out the additional modifier, both get Alert, the BM build is better at using Ambush.




> Wizard 5 fighter 2
> Wizard with action surge 6-8 attacks depending on slot use
> Vs fighter 6 ranger 1
> 4 attacks with action surge, no changes to the attack line
> 
> That doesn't look like the Wizard going to 5 before action surge, is doing badly in tier 2, it looks like it is keeping rough parity with fighter. It looks like going wizard 5 is in fact the right call for the specifics of this build, not something that is lol random.


It's never straight-up bad, and there are times where the Wizard build looks more appealing, but it does look like you keep ignoring that the Fighter has a subclass, which does it a great disservice. As does the fact that the Wizard is reliant on fire damage for this gimmick, with no way to deal with the shortfalls associated

Personally, if I were to play a Bugbear I'd probably go for something melee based, since it's a waste to ignore Long-Limbed. A sword and board with Dueling or a Greatsword maybe.

----------


## Witty Username

That is why I said by surprise gains instead of raw damage, surprise gains for both are 8d6 damage by surprise.

How does a fighter 6 at 6th level have any levels in gloomstalker yet? That isn't a factor until 9th level, in the meantime the wizard has better initiative.

Ok, so your claim is the fighter is better because they can burn all their short rest resources on the first round?
Lets take a second combat situation then:
Wizard 5/ fighter 1
Cast scorching ray 3rd level slot (we have 2 after all)
16d6 damage, 64 damage
Or perhaps a second level slot ( we have 4)
12d6, 42 damage
Fighter
Attack action
2d8 + 2d6 + 8, 24 damage
(I haven't been ignoring it, so much as its less clear, for wizard I have been including lower level slots, this is because multiple combats happen, and those numbers need to be considered, for the fighter this is not as much an issue when just comparing action surge, but including other resources gets into how often we can do this between short rests, assuming a short rest between every combat feels to me like flawed reasoning).

And we aren't factoring in the possibility of restance/Immunity to non-magical weapon damage, which is about as common as fire resistance/Immunity at this level.

If we are fighting say a shadow demon, we are obligated to cut this damage in half for the fighter

And wizards are arcenal based by nature, enemies immune to fire aren't necessarily immune to hypnotic pattern for example. The fighter doesn't really have solutions to damage resistance outside of DM pity, or friendly wizards.

But this is all to say, I don't think the wizard build is bad, or based on flawed reasoning, it seems that it is a build people don't like cause wizard.

As for long-limbed, I don't think it is much of a waste to ignore it, the 5ft of extra isn't all that much.
As for optimizing it, I would go Watcher's Paladin (so we aren't wasting surprise) with a halberd, I would take wrathful smite to inflict the frightened condition from 15ft away, probably take PAM and Sentinel to get the most out of the AOO range. I feel like that would be too much away from ASIs though, since we care about both saves and attack rolls, maybe go to 8th and go into hexblade for the rest so we can get hex warrior to get cha to both ends, also some extra spell slots for smites.
I am not sure the build is much better than just going variant human though.

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## Dork_Forge

> That is why I said by surprise gains instead of raw damage, surprise gains for both are 8d6 damage by surprise.


Ohh I thought that was meant to be something related to initiative or something.




> How does a fighter 6 at 6th level have any levels in gloomstalker yet? That isn't a factor until 9th level, in the meantime the wizard has better initiative.


They don't, I'm not sure what part you're referring to, it doesn't become a Gloomstalker until 9th.

But no, the Wizard doesn't have the better initiative until then. It's better until 6th level, where Alert puts the Fighter in front, but it's never double the Fighter's initiative and it never reaches the same potential.




> Ok, so your claim is the fighter is better because they can burn all their short rest resources on the first round?


The entire premise of the build is novaing, taking advantage of Action Surge, a short rest resource, so... yes?




> Lets take a second combat situation then:
> Wizard 5/ fighter 1
> Cast scorching ray 3rd level slot (we have 2 after all)
> 16d6 damage, 64 damage
> Or perhaps a second level slot ( we have 4)
> 12d6, 42 damage
> Fighter
> Attack action
> 2d8 + 2d6 + 8, 24 damage


I'm not really sure what your aim here is? The Wizard can use their slots on any combat, the Fighter nova's harder once per short rest, which is what the Wizard is aspiring to with the second Fighter level.

Yes, the Wizard has the potential to nova harder on the second encounter after each rest, at the cost of... well everything since a Wizard's class features amount to 'cast spells.'

The baseline damage of the Fighter remains even, the Wizard can burn their slots for a while, but their damage dramatically drops off when they run out, or simply choose to not do so. For what you're proposing to be sustainable it sounds like they're using 3rd and 2nd level slots for Scorching Ray, and just casting a cantrip for most rounds? I'm not doing that math right now, but I imagine that would even out (or come close to it) and isn't really the purpose of the build anyway.




> (I haven't been ignoring it, so much as its less clear, for wizard I have been including lower level slots, this is because multiple combats happen, and those numbers need to be considered, for the fighter this is not as much an issue when just comparing action surge, but including other resources gets into how often we can do this between short rests, assuming a short rest between every combat feels to me like flawed reasoning).


You don't need to assume a short rest between each combat, I'd hope that most combats at this level didn't even require anywhere near that damage! Nova when it's appropriate, not at the drop of a hat when you're liable to waste a lot of damage with overkill (a benefit of maneuvers, since they act like smites).

And if you meant it's less clear how the subclass thing shakes out for Wizard, I'd wager that the initiative bump probably cancels out the lost damage from having to cast cantrips when using the defensive feature. Wiz 6 onwards it's a pretty straightforward boost to nova damage once per rest.




> And we aren't factoring in the possibility of restance/Immunity to non-magical weapon damage, which is about as common as fire resistance/Immunity at this level.
> 
> If we are fighting say a shadow demon, we are obligated to cut this damage in half for the fighter


In this discussion? Because you're guaranteed a magic weapon in AL, you can actually just choose to start at 5th level with a +1 weapon. I didn't assume that in the numbers, but that does favour the damage of the Fighter/Gloom.

In general? Because res/imm to nonmagical BPS is a problem that once solved, is just solved for the rest of the game. It's a solution that has a really low bar (since any old enchantment works), that allies can help you achieve with spells or features, and that you can just expect to come across a magic weapon at some point.

Relying on a fire spell without the ability to swap its type is a much larger issue, especially when that fire spell is the only thing that really props up the blaster gimmick on the Wizard chassis.




> And wizards are arcenal based by nature, enemies immune to fire aren't necessarily immune to hypnotic pattern for example. The fighter doesn't really have solutions to damage resistance outside of DM pity, or friendly wizards.


I mean, yes you can cast other spells... but the whole point of the build is to be a blaster that takes advantage of Surprise Attack... right? So to be incredibly reliant on a single spell, which is one of the most common res/imms... Not good?

And I get that you're being hyperbolic with the 'friendly Wizard' thing, but Magic Weapon is not exactly a niche spell:

- Artificers (who also have infusions)
- Wizards
- Paladins
- Rangers (TCOE)
- Sorcerers (TCOE)
- Arcana Cleric
- Forge Cleric (who can also make +1 weapon)
- War Cleric
- Mark of Making (enchanced version)

And again, getting a weapon that is magical to any degree works and is not only common, but extremely expected.




> But this is all to say, I don't think the wizard build is bad, or based on flawed reasoning, it seems that it is a build people don't like cause wizard.


I don't think it's bad, I think that the concept is entirely reliant on a single spell and the notion that if that one spell fails just being a Wizard leaves a bad taste. I like builds to be versatile, but if they have clear objective or niche, they should be robust within it and doing the other stuff should be less likely as a result.




> As for long-limbed, I don't think it is much of a waste to ignore it, the 5ft of extra isn't all that much.
> As for optimizing it, I would go Watcher's Paladin (so we aren't wasting surprise) with a halberd, I would take wrathful smite to inflict the frightened condition from 15ft away, probably take PAM and Sentinel to get the most out of the AOO range. I feel like that would be too much away from ASIs though, since we care about both saves and attack rolls, maybe go to 8th and go into hexblade for the rest so we can get hex warrior to get cha to both ends, also some extra spell slots for smites.
> I am not sure the build is much better than just going variant human though.


Whilst it's not the most powerful ability, it's a nice one and it's pretty much half of what a Bugbear gets. To ignore it is less 'Optimize Bugbear' and more 'Optimize Surprise Attack' which is fine and fun, but not the same thing.

Eh, personally I think Watchers is better for this as a party member than a build goal. 7th level of a single class just to get a boost to initiative is a long time and on a Str-based build that's already MAD it hurts a lot. If I was doing it with a Paladin I'd probably go sword and board with Dueling and dip Divine Soul to get an accuracy boost and access to Shadow Blade.

Something to keep in mind is that Long-Limbed only works on your turn, so it doesn't increase OA range.

----------


## diplomancer

One easy way to optimize both features is Monk. I've played a Bugbear Mercy Monk once (for one session only, at level 5, as the campaign dispersed, unfortunately), and had a lot of fun. Punching people with Flurry of Blows and Surprise and then skirmishing away from them feels almost like cheating. It was not AL, so I could get Fey-Touched Gift of Alacrity. 

Had I continued playing him, I was planning on getting to Gloomstalker 4 at some point, either after 8 or after 12. Oh, and the one uncommon magic item I picked was a Short Bow of Warning.

----------


## Witty Username

> In this discussion? Because you're guaranteed a magic weapon in AL, you can actually just choose to start at 5th level with a +1 weapon. I didn't assume that in the numbers, but that does favour the damage of the Fighter/Gloom.


Ah, fair, for the purpose of this discussion sure, I actually didn't know that about AL.
--
I will give this is probably a perception thing, personally I have found that the overwhelming majority of encounters aren't fire resistant/immune (demons, some elementals, some dragons), it also has a number of creatures that are fire vulnerable. This is probably just a difference of table stuff. If this was poison I would be of a different opinion since like half the MM is immune to it (probably exaggerated, I don't have the actual numbers)

But either way, I feel like this was up top, in the war wizard vs scribe wizard stuff. I expect to have more trouble consistently wining initiative (as you mentioned earlier even with war wizard and alert you will still sometimes lose initiative), so war makes more sense to me, scribe is an alternative if Alert + dex is enough and fire resistance/Immunity is expected.

----------


## Dork_Forge

> Ah, fair, for the purpose of this discussion sure, I actually didn't know that about AL.
> --
> I will give this is probably a perception thing, personally I have found that the overwhelming majority of encounters aren't fire resistant/immune (demons, some elementals, some dragons), it also has a number of creatures that are fire vulnerable. This is probably just a difference of table stuff. If this was poison I would be of a different opinion since like half the MM is immune to it (probably exaggerated, I don't have the actual numbers)
> 
> But either way, I feel like this was up top, in the war wizard vs scribe wizard stuff. I expect to have more trouble consistently wining initiative (as you mentioned earlier even with war wizard and alert you will still sometimes lose initiative), so war makes more sense to me, scribe is an alternative if Alert + dex is enough and fire resistance/Immunity is expected.


Yeah I think the real issue is falling into the trap where you just expect to win initiative because your modifier is high. Monsters can still roll high and you can still roll low, dice happen and it's best to not be totally reliant on it, it's like the Assassin autocrit but more reliable in that way.

----------


## prototype00

After some cogitating, I think I'll give the Scribes Wiz subclass a try. If only because:

1. With Guidance (d4), the Ambush Maneuver (d6), a whip of warning (Advantage) and semi decent dex (16/+3), I stand a good but not unbeatable (thats War Wizard) chance of winning initiative and sometimes you just gotta depend on the dice.

2. The damage type swap means that Scorching Ray nova basically scales to the endgame now as very few creatures are resistant to stuff like magical bludgeoning damage delivered by spell or Force. (Surprisingly, Psychic is resisted by a distressing number of critters starting T3).

3. The Manifest Mind Drone might actually be good for alpha strikes while the rest of the group hides down the corridor. Most enemies (especially at T2) aren't going to figure that Zordon is going to fire 24d6 worth of force scorching rays at them in the first round. Its also a decent scout, if not an invisible one, and can set off ambushes from less intelligent monsters. Anyway, shennanigans, and I always enjoy those.

I can start at lvl 7 (lvl 5 base start and 2 levels from granting DM rewards) so thats most of the growing pains skipped, and the money that goes with granting myself a +1 Half Plate, a Whip of Warning and a potential +2 Arcane Grimoire (if I can't find that in the DM rewards, I'll default to the +1 Arcane Grimoire) is 2900gp, so I can use that to buy scrolls as per Xanathar's rules to supplement the spellbook. 

Seems solid, am I missing anything (besides being a gloomstalker and/or a non-Treantmonk build)?

----------


## Dork_Forge

> After some cogitating, I think I'll give the Scribes Wiz subclass a try. If only because:
> 
> 1. With Guidance (d4), the Ambush Maneuver (d6), a whip of warning (Advantage) and semi decent dex (16/+3), I stand a good but not unbeatable (thats War Wizard) chance of winning initiative and sometimes you just gotta depend on the dice.
> 
> 2. The damage type swap means that Scorching Ray nova basically scales to the endgame now as very few creatures are resistant to stuff like magical bludgeoning damage delivered by spell or Force. (Surprisingly, Psychic is resisted by a distressing number of critters starting T3).
> 
> 3. The Manifest Mind Drone might actually be good for alpha strikes while the rest of the group hides down the corridor. Most enemies (especially at T2) aren't going to figure that Zordon is going to fire 24d6 worth of force scorching rays at them in the first round. Its also a decent scout, if not an invisible one, and can set off ambushes from less intelligent monsters. Anyway, shennanigans, and I always enjoy those.
> 
> I can start at lvl 7 (lvl 5 base start and 2 levels from granting DM rewards) so thats most of the growing pains skipped, and the money that goes with granting myself a +1 Half Plate, a Whip of Warning and a potential +2 Arcane Grimoire (if I can't find that in the DM rewards, I'll default to the +1 Arcane Grimoire) is 2900gp, so I can use that to buy scrolls as per Xanathar's rules to supplement the spellbook. 
> ...


1) You might want to consider breastplate, since you can still get a +1 and won't have disadvantage on Stealth.

2) Just make sure you keep learning spells of relevant types as you level up, it's about the level of slot you expend, not the base level of Scorching Ray.

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## prototype00

> 1) You might want to consider breastplate, since you can still get a +1 and won't have disadvantage on Stealth.


Ah, thats a good point, I do have a +1 Breastplate kicking around my other characters that I can trade for.




> 2) Just make sure you keep learning spells of relevant types as you level up, it's about the level of slot you expend, not the base level of Scorching Ray.


Don't I know it, that 2900gp is just to make sure I have essential damage types (thunder, force or B/P/S) covered at the appropriate levels and that I also have the Control Options when my 1st round Nova is done.

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## Dork_Forge

> Don't I know it, that 2900gp is just to make sure I have essential damage types (thunder, force or B/P/S) covered at the appropriate levels and that I also have the Control Options when my 1st round Nova is done.


What ar ethe rules for buying scrolls in AL nowadays?

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## prototype00

> What ar ethe rules for buying scrolls in AL nowadays?


They use the ones found on Xanathar's page 174.

1st: 75gp
2nd: 150gp
3rd: 300gp
4th: 500gp
5th: 1000gp

And after that you fend for yourself. Also spell scrolls can only be bought by people who can cast the spell, which in the absence of word-of-mod, I have taken to mean have the potential to cast the spell based on their current class, a common enough interpretation.

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