# Forum > Discussion > Media Discussions > TV New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

## russdm

So, I was looking around the forum, and have noted that there is a show about watching the Original Star Trek series (Which I like) and watching DS9 (By yora, and a series that I also like) but nothing for the Next Generation. (Also nothing for either Voyager or Enterprise)

So what does that mean? Well it means someone has to watch this show through. and evaluate a few things: 1) Is this series any good? ; 2) Is the stuff made with Gene Roddenberry better or worse? ; 3) how actually likable are the characters, and are there any that should simply die? ; 4) Does the series really deserve to be seen as so great, or is that more the fans who loved TOS being dumb and giving it a chance due to it being Star Trek.

Also, should the show have been canceled at any point.

So, Yora used a nice versions of emoji faces which will get used for this thread as well. I am expecting the playground to come along and discuss this show. As we go through the episodes. With spoilers being dumped everywhere because it is an old series and people should have seen it.

Now, since the show started as it did, I feel that it is only proper that the viewing work the same, which means watching the episodes in order, and talking about it. That means starting with the pilot and going through the first season then the second and so on. (except for the Borg Episodes which I am skipping, because I refuse to watch them. the Borg always gave me weird dreams and nightmares, you all can watch the Borg on your own. I HATE Horrer!)

So, kick back and get your tv trays ready. I will be watching on Netflix myself.

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## Hopeless

In retrospect it was great and is set before DS9.
Like most series its first season it takes time to get its footing, but then it introduces the Borg and goes from there.

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## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Hopeless*
> _Like most series its first season it takes time to get its footing..._.


First season was great when it originally aired, because it was so highly anticipated and about the only decent SF on the air at the time.

But it really has not aged well.

*Spoiler*
Show

The lighting and music for the first season have much more in common with TOS than with later seasons of TNG, so that can seem rather jarring.  

And everyone is still finding their characters, so some episodes are quite goofy, occasionally on purpose.  And the writing is often not great.

But if you can get through the first season, the show starts becoming truly great.  I've been watching later episodes on BBC America and many of them hold up very well.  And Guinan always steals every scene she's in.

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## Cikomyr2

> First season was great when it originally aired, because it was so highly anticipated and about the only decent SF on the air at the time.
> 
> But it really has not aged well.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> The lighting and music for the first season have much more in common with TOS than with later seasons of TNG, so that can seem rather jarring.  
> 
> ...


It's not just "people trying to find their footing". 90% of the pains of season 1 has nothing to do with the directors, the music, the acting. It has to do with the writing, which was abysmal.

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## Peelee

> So, I was looking around the forum, and have noted that there is a show about watching the Original Star Trek series (Which I like) and watching DS9 (By yora, and a series that I also like) but nothing for the Next Generation. (Also nothing for either Voyager or Enterprise)


Speaking as someone who greatly enjoyed _Enterprise_, I think it's for the best that there is no thread for it as yet, since it would invariably be a punching bag.  :Small Tongue:

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## GloatingSwine

> First season was great when it originally aired, because it was so highly anticipated and about the only decent SF on the air at the time.
> 
> But it really has not aged well.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> The lighting and music for the first season have much more in common with TOS than with later seasons of TNG, so that can seem rather jarring.  
> 
> ...


TNG Season 1 was not universally well received when it was new (with, ironically, many of the same complaints made about it as are made about the recent series). It hasn't just not aged gracefully though, quite a lot of the first season is actively drek.  Like there are some miserable 45 minute periods coming up for these intrepid viewers who have to make it through Code of Honor, Justice, and rather more Wesley Crusher than anyone, especially Wil Wheaton, should have had to put up with.

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## russdm

Yeah I have watched this series before but I think that we need a thread for watching the show, like how there were for TOS and DS9 and Babylon 5.

When I rewatch the series, I watch a couple from the first season and a few from the second season and really get going in season 3. The first two seasons are both just bad.

Frankly, I think that you can lay the blame for what is wrong at the feet of roddenberry himself. He did rewrite the episode of code of honor which has a bunch of problems beyond the casting and being space Africa.

I think that you could accurately describe roddenberry as being like George Lucas but that unlike George who came to learn that he worked better with the others who helped make the shows/movies as good as they could be.  I don't think that Gene ever picked up on that point  also, according to stuff I saw on tvtropes, I think gene did one of his script rewrites for code of honor. 

But the problems for that episode can be covered when the episode is gotten to.

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## Kitten Champion

> It's not just "people trying to find their footing". 90% of the pains of season 1 has nothing to do with the directors, the music, the acting. It has to do with the writing, which was abysmal.


One of things SFDebris pointed out to me was that the music was ostensibly better for the first three seasons of TNG than at any other point in the franchise as a whole, at least on television. It was rich and atmospheric, often conveying the spirit of what was intended even if the writing often couldn't. Then Rick Berman fired the guy doing it and TV Trek pivoted into mostly just being neutral television background noise you could find anywhere, outside of the big opening score obviously.

Though I will say the banal ambiance of TNG is quite soothing, especially compared to similar contemporary SF works.

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## russdm

so for doing this, i think there should some points here. i may like episodes that you don't like, and i may not like episodes that you like. there will probably be disagreements.

For this watching, I am going to be using two hats: The Russ fan of Star Trek and Star Wars and scifi/fantasy hat; the Russ the Network Executive that has to fork up/put up the money for this show and so how much / little there pops for doing that, along with whether canceling the show should have happened.

Then, Of course, for this to be more of a proper viewing, the only parts of Star Trek for consideration here, should naturally be the Original Series (TOS) and the Animated Series (TAS) and also, whatever previous episodes happened already.

There will be some trackers made for this. Of the good episodes, of the bad episodes, of the "Meh" episodes. For how in general did the season do. For how much appeal/value there would be in making the series, and should Russ the Network Executive (The Network) have paid to do the show, and should have the show been canceled at any point. The most tracker in my mind is, Should Gene Roddenberry been removed from being able to influence/tweak the show. There will be how much/often the cast holds the Idiot Ball, where the problems of the episode could have been solved due to technology they had available (Shields, Transporters, Phasers, Photon Torpodoes, Sensors), does the cast hold an idiot ball for common sense actions that they should have taken? All that.

Then there trackers that the playgrounds could suggest going with. 

My Trackers: Episode Quality, Series canceled/kept, Idiot Ball (Technology), Idiot Ball (Common Sense), Kick Gene Roddenberry Out, Everyone is a Moron (More than one person in the episode is holding an Idiot Ball and more than one at the same time as well), How Insufferably Smug the Federation/Our Cast is

What are your suggestions, playgrounders? After those have been assembled, then watching the Pilot, Encounter at Farpoint, can happen.

okay, so maybe more Star trek stuff had come out before TNG, the first episode aired September 28th, 1987.

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## Kareeah_Indaga

> Then there trackers that the playgrounds could suggest going with.


Maybe a tracker for when the Prime Directive comes up?

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## Peelee

> Maybe a tracker for when the Prime Directive comes up?


Or _should_ come up. :Small Wink:

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## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *russdm*
> _The first two seasons are both just bad_.


This is pretty broad-brush, and I disagree completely.

First season is clunky and awkward, with some overt moralizing that seems very out of place in comparison to later seasons.  But its not a total loss by any means.  Second season is much improved and even has some gems, most notably Measure of a Man, which was beautifully done and even a little daring in the context of the show as a whole.

So claiming that two entire seasons are just bad isnt very helpful, and I would argue not at all accurate. 




> Originally Posted by *russdm*
> _Frankly, I think that you can lay the blame for what is wrong at the feet of roddenberry himself._


Roddenberry wasnt the only personality working on the show, and its usually too simplistic to ascribe things that are wrong to any one person.

Without going into details, there are claims that someone else close to Roddenberry, but not actually on production staff, made some last-minute changes to certain scripts.  No telling if those claims are true, but there were a lot of other factors besides Roddenberry at work.  

To say nothing of what should be defined as wrong in the first place, which is a separate issue entirely.




> Originally Posted by *Kitten Champion*
> _One of things SFDebris pointed out to me was that the music was ostensibly better for the first three seasons of TNG than at any other point in the franchise as a whole, at least on television._


Thats quite a claim, especially when set against the entire franchise, which includes some great film scores.

I was commenting specifically about the music in the first season, which feels much more akin to music from TOS.  When I notice it, it feels very stilted and awkward, much like some of the lighting and camerawork from first season.




> Originally Posted by *russdm*
> _Everyone is a MoronHow Insufferably Smug the Federation/Our Cast is._


Having these categories makes this exercise much less appealing, since it doesnt exactly suggest an objective approach to viewing the show.




> Originally Posted by *russdm*
> _okay, so maybe more Star trek stuff had come out before TNG, the first episode aired September 28th, 1987._


Confused by what you mean here.  Do you mean earlier TV or movie material, or anything else at all?  Because there was a pulse of novels in the early 80s, focused on the TOS and early movie eras.  Not to mention a huge variety of tie-in merch, from puzzle books to the old AMT model kits.




> Originally Posted by *Kareeah_Indaga*
> _Maybe a tracker for when the Prime Directive comes up?_


On a related note, are there any books that deal with the ethics of the Prime Directive across the franchise as a whole?  I know Larry Krauss did a great little book on the science of Star Trek, quite some years ago, and Im wondering if anyone has given a similar in-depth treatment to the Prime Directive.

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## The Glyphstone

Yeah, a 'snarking at how dumb everything is' thread is significantly less interesting. The B5 and DS9 threads worked because they were someone's honest first time and first hand experiences. Having nine different trackers of nothing but negative things gives a completely different tone, more like MST3King Trek ( which some people might buy into) .

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## Manga Shoggoth

Really, unless you are going out to roast the episodes I would suggest keeping it simple.

Don't use lots of criteria - keep it simple and score the episode on a set of general criteria (eg: Story, Character, Technical (writing, effects), Lore (how well it fits in the wider TNG/TOS viewpoint) and Overall). 

So, something like:




> Episode: (pilot, S1E1 or however you wish to label them)
> Title: (Obvious)
> 
> Plot:
> (Quick plot summary)
> 
> Reaction:
> (How you feel about it. If important, how you marked it)
> 
> ...


For scoring, I suggest that you keep the score ranges small - 5 is usually a good one:

1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on

This covers most of the basis - Trying to score out of 10 becomes cumbersome because there are too many choices; scoring out of three can work, but it is a little tight.

If you want, optionally stick a short comment after a score iff you need to clarify why you gave that score.

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## Dire_Flumph

> Thats quite a claim, especially when set against the entire franchise, which includes some great film scores.
> 
> I was commenting specifically about the music in the first season, which feels much more akin to music from TOS.  When I notice it, it feels very stilted and awkward, much like some of the lighting and camerawork from first season.


The SFDebris quote he was talking about (looking at the episode _Justice_ at about 7:21.) was actually just comparing pre-Berman Star Trek TNG, and specifically Season 1, to the Berman era and not the franchise as a whole and certainly not the film scores.  There were a few composers during this time, but Ron Jones has been most vocal about the changes Berman demanded, that the music not be "too noticeable" according to Jones, who was fired from TNG around season 4.  Post Season 3, the music does tend to just fade away, comprising more of just repeated themes and background mood.

I actually do prefer a lot of the early TNG music to later TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT for this reason.

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## Peelee

> poor connection to lore.


I don't know if we really want to judge episodes based on their relationship with a single side character.

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## Manga Shoggoth

> Originally Posted by Manga Shoggoth
> 
> 
> poor connection to lore
> 
> 
> I don't know if we really want to judge episodes based on their relationship with a single side character.


True. Let's stick to the relevent data.

(Well played Peelee, well played...)

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## Palanan

Is there any real need for scoring and criteria?  

Why not just discuss the episodes without making it an Olympic event?

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## Peelee

> True. Let's stick to the relevent data.
> 
> (Well played Peelee, well played...)


For reals, I giggled when I read the original line and thought of someone saying "Solid plot, witty dialogue, great camera work, but Lore was completely absent. Subpar episode."

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## Kitten Champion

> The SFDebris quote he was talking about (looking at the episode _Justice_ at about 7:21.) was actually just comparing pre-Berman Star Trek TNG, and specifically Season 1, to the Berman era and not the franchise as a whole and certainly not the film scores.  There were a few composers during this time, but Ron Jones has been most vocal about the changes Berman demanded, that the music not be "too noticeable" according to Jones, who was fired from TNG around season 4.  Post Season 3, the music does tend to just fade away, comprising more of just repeated themes and background mood.
> 
> I actually do prefer a lot of the early TNG music to later TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT for this reason.


Yeah, that's why I specified television, because they ain't paying Jerry Goldsmith for regular TV compositions.

If you want a straightforward example of where early TNG Ron Jones music is peak TV Trek music, then watch or listen to the sound track on _Q Who_ or _Best of Both Worlds_ and compare it to any other occasion where the Borg appear later on in TNG, Voyager, or Enterprise. Jones' music sells those episodes and made the Borg feel like the oppressive force they were intended to be, while later composers just made fairly indistinct tense action-y kind of music.

I can't speak for Discovery though as I barely remember any of its music, nor can I recall much of ST: Picard's OST outside of the persistent - if pleasant - use of the flute.

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## Kareeah_Indaga

> Is there any real need for scoring and criteria?  
> 
> Why not just discuss the episodes without making it an Olympic event?


...so no trying to count the number of Script Reading Doors in a given episode?

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## russdm

That's why I was asking for advice from others. To properly setup the best way of reviewing this.

Leonard maizlish is the guy who you are looking for. I read the stuff about "chaos on the bridge"

I am just going with the tv series and movies that had been done before the first episode airing and that to count for Lore.

Considering that Lore, Data's brother doesn't show up until the datalore episode and then disappears after, i don't think it is fair to judge an episode on him in some way.

There are a few gems in the first season, too.

I think that "bad" can range from "meh" to "throwing a shoe at the screen "

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## russdm

So, I am going to do a rundown on the tv shows that I like, the ones that I have not been interested in. Then there will be the episodes from the Original Series that I will frequently rewatch for whenever I go do another rewatch using the streaming services. That should give people a sense of what I happen to like and so what would be affecting how I would view the series/episodes and how much I would like them or not.

Tv Series: MASH (all seasons but especially the post Frank Burns ones); TOS; Mobile Suit Gundam Wing; Mobile Suit Gundam: 8th ms team; mobile suit gundam; wings; Seinfeld; Battlestar Galactica (the original one); Battlestar Galactica (newer version); sailor moon ( i watched some bits); Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy (the BBC one); Doctor who (the recent one, I have not seen anything pre- Christopher eccleston); MST3K (the original one); Firefly; Linda Hunt and her series about being space rangers (Linda hunt, who was shadout mapes in david lynch Dune and she was in NCIS Los Angeles i think it was); quantum leap; Sliders (I saw parts of this, and my main memory is of john Davies (gimli in lotr movies) as Arturo, Rembrandt the black guy, wade the girl and somebody else; as being the main characters; I think that I recall bits from earlier in the show); Babylon 5 (i thought that it started slow and could have better some but my favorite characters were Vir - G'Kar - Londo); Deep Space 9; Voyager (my favorite episode of this show was the episode of the planet with the super fast rotation and then my second favorite was the show where the doctor was sent to that ship that the crew picked up on sensors using the big array of communications systems that were connected with black holes); enterprise (i liked the ones dealing with the vulcans and the andorians and about the interactions between the groups that form to be the federation and i didn't like the time travel stuff or the xindi stuff, did like the romulan stuff);  pysch; highlander

TV Shows  (that I didn't like or have interest in): Buffy the vampire slayer (i actually saw the movie for this show but I couldn't ever find the interest in watching the show any, the little that I saw of episodes that I had, didn't encourage my interest); friends (the ross Rachel relationship tumor); breaking bad (I didn't find myself interested in seeing this); angel (I just couldn't find an interest in wanting to watch this)

The Original Series Episode Returns (these are the episodes from the original series that whenever I do another rewatch of the original series on a streaming service that I will usually always watch again every time and just keep going back to; this will also have the episodes that I remember liking): Balance of Terror; Errand of Mercy; Space Seed; Journey to Babel; The trouble with tribbles; the one with the constellation and the bugle chip shaped robot superweapon/doomsdayweapon; the one with the space romans and planet; the ultimate computer (the one with the m5 computer); the one with the gorn; the one where spock and mccoy go back in time on a planet;(ones that I remember liking when I saw the show and did a rewatch,  I was born in 1985 so I had to watch the show on TV or through DVDS or streaming services) the one with Kodos; the giant cat Halloween one; the one with the nazi culture influenced place thing; the edith lady one; the cappy guys and McCoy has to help make a kid featuring a Klingon guy one; the one with the poisonous gorilla that is wearing a horn that features a Klingon guy; the one with the gorn; the one with Kang the Klingon; the one with the intelligent rock; the one with Lazarus guy and guy; the one with the old long lived guy; the one with Garth; the one with the crew stealing the romulan cloaking device and spock interacts with the romulan lady; the one with the war between the two planets that was done with computers and that Kirk broke those computers and the federation diplomat that kirk was escorting there was helping the two planets do talking with each other at the end

So yeah

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## Peelee

Sliders was _amazing_.

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## Bugbear

> My Trackers: Episode Quality, Series canceled/kept, Idiot Ball (Technology), Idiot Ball (Common Sense), Kick Gene Roddenberry Out, Everyone is a Moron (More than one person in the episode is holding an Idiot Ball and more than one at the same time as well), How Insufferably Smug the Federation/Our Cast is
> 
> What are your suggestions, playgrounders?


I'm not sure doing a canceled/kept per episode would really be worth it.  

Kick Gene Roddenberry Out, is a bit of a waste too.  For everything you want to blame on Gene, he also did all the good things.  Gene wanted the handy-capable  main cast member(Geordi La Forge) at a time when that was not done much on TV.  Also it was not just Gene, like five people really had hands in ruining the first couple years of TNG.

I might suggest:

*Missed Chances- TNG is a great example of a show that often had great ideas...and then never went anywhere with them.  

*80's Flashback and 90's flashback-  it's sure funny to see such things now.  

*Money Matters- A fun one, as as soon as a character says no moneu...a character then buys something with "credits".  Dr. Crusher BUYS some fabric in Encounter at Farpoint, no less.

*Troi Troubles- So...they state that she is an empath with a range of at least a kilometer or two.  Sometimes they renumber to have her use her ability...but most often they forget.  

*Data's Emotions-  It's said all the time that "Data has no emotions"....ok, but then why does Data ACT like he has emotions.  Data is very curious, but then maybe curious is not an "emotion".  Data cares for the ship and crew....but "care is an emotion".  Data also gets surprised, confused, and countless other things that sure seem like "emotions" .

*Family Fun -  So....the Enterprise has families on it, and that is just a horrible idea.  The ship can be called into battle, or worse just get attacked out of the blue.  But OF COURSE we never see a photon torpedo blow up classroom 1 and kill a bunch of kids.  And even worse, every so often _everyone on the ship de-evolves or something_, but the show just skips the horror of little Billy and Sally becoming frogs or whatever.  

*Clunky Allegories- Star Trek CAN be so great at this......but TNG fails way more often them not.  

*Surprisingly Timid- TOS had plenty of raw, powerful, emotional stories.  THG....well, not so much.  Far too often is was just too timid.  If you want to "show" us something....then show us, don't dance around it.

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## Kitten Champion

I think, personally, I'd go for more amusing-in-a-meta-kind-of-way than season one/two-specific kinds of things.

Like 

The Red Shirt -- for when someone - predominantly an extra -  dies to build tension.

He Who is Worfed -- where, ya'know, Worf is made to fight and lose to prove the adversary is serious business.

The Picard Speech -- which is self-explanatory I think, but you could also rate them against one another.

Polarize the Phase Inverters -- for impressive use of meaningless jargon or pseudo-science. 

Here be Dragons -- for space anomalies.

and, of course.

It's Yet Another Simulation Gone Mad -- for holodeck malfunctions.

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## Dire_Flumph

> It's Yet Another Simulation Gone Mad -- for holodeck malfunctions.


While a trope of the series, it doesn't happen that often.  I'd like to expand it to something like *Didn't Spring for the Extended Warranty*, covering where 24th century tech gets inexplicably unreliable so the story can happen (transporters can't solve the problem of the week because of ionizing thingy, phasers that can vaporize steel don't bother the alien of the week, none of the ships controls work, "Hey, did that guy just beam through the shields?", and of course, holodeck safeties fail and the holograms try to kill everyone)

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## russdm

There will be a tracker for Miles O'Brien and his ranks, which are a little silly some

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## Kitten Champion

> While a trope of the series, it doesn't happen that often.  I'd like to expand it to something like *Didn't Spring for the Extended Warranty*, covering where 24th century tech gets inexplicably unreliable so the story can happen (transporters can't solve the problem of the week because of ionizing thingy, phasers that can vaporize steel don't bother the alien of the week, none of the ships controls work, "Hey, did that guy just beam through the shields?", and of course, holodeck safeties fail and the holograms try to kill everyone)


I think there's about one a season going from TNG and onward into the spin-offs. Though early on there were more as the Holodeck was a novel concept, and now they didn't have to find insane counter-part Earths like in TOS. 

There was also The Royal - I think it was called - which was a Holodeck Malfunction story even if it was an inexplicable alien simulation of a cheesy novel and not on the actual Holodeck.

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## russdm

We (I) Have Started!!!!!

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## russdm

(I will be making episode comments in () during the watch. And then will be making comments after the show finishes as well)

Season One, Episode 1
Encounter at Farpoint

Stardate: 41153.7

Plot:

We start out with the Intro for each and every episode, the shots of the Enterprise D flying through space after Picard gives his line, "Space, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. Its continuing mission -- to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before."

Cue, the ship flying. (This is probably the best intro of the franchise. The visuals, the music which is similiar to the Enterprise theme from the TOS movies. Just daaa....)

We finish the Intro and pan towards the ship and a window, in which is standing our captain. Picard is doing his captain's log. Explaining what is going to be happening. Picard says that they are going to Deneb IV, beyond which lies the great unexplored mass of the galaxy. We get a close up of Picard's face here. (Picard is wearing a red uniform)

We continue with Picard doing a voice over of his Captain's Log, as he goes through the ship. Picard has orders to explore/examine Farpoint Station. He takes us through a tour of the ship, as he takes a stroll. So, Farpoint was a starbase built by the inhabitants of the world. His new command is a Galaxy Class USS Enterprise.

It's the BRIDGE!!! and Worf. (The Set looks pretty good, even if it is a tad bit too large) Worf. (So Worf is wearing a golden Baldric on his uniform. Worf is also wearing a red uniform)

It's Yar! (She is the blonde standing at the top curvy wood part. I am not shy or unashamed to say that Denise Crosby looks good in that uniform. Yar is wearing a gold uniform)

It's the back of Troi's head! (Hi Troi. Also, Troi is wearing a blue uniform with a skirt. Troi also looks good in that uniform)

It's Data, at the station. (OPs? I don't know which station it is yet. Data is wearing a gold uniform)

It's Geordi at the other station. (I don't know which station is which. If I was going by the TOS, I would say, but actually I can't remember which of the two sides was the helm and which was the other thingie that the not-helm side did. Also, Geordi is wearing a gold uniform)

So, that was not Geordi at the station next to Data, it is some other guy (The establishing shots earlier show the guy sitting the seat as having dark skin, but the guy in the close up doesn't have the same dark color. I think that this is supposed to be the Torres character) Also, the first officer is not present and will be picked up at Farpoint. The first officer is named William Riker and he is a commander

There is some discussion about the crew's orders. Picard is to negotiate about using the base. Also, Data makes an 'Inquiry' (Which reminds of how HK-47 from the Knights of the Old Republic Games talks) about the word "Snoop".

So, Data has been programmed with a virtual encyclopedia of information and does not know "snoop". ( So we are learning about Data here, some of his abilities) Also, Data is programmed to emulate human behavior and "snoop" is not among that which he was programmed for.

Data is a theasaurus here.

Troi senses something. (Yeah, this starts now...)

Red Alert! The viewscreen fills with mesh outside that is a bunch of little...thingies...all put together (To be honest, there is space such that the mesh looks like a chain link fence, and I see spaces that the Enterprise D could have flown through to leave) (also detector circuit) (so it's a powerful force field that they shouldn't run into)

Picard orders going to Yellow Alert, "Shut off that damn noise", and Worf says that "Shields and deflectors up, sir". (Does this mean that the Shields are separate thingie from the deflectors?)

It's Q!!!!!!!!! (Q arrives, dressed up in a weird outfit that I don't recognize. He has on a breastplate, like something worn by cavalry, and a high middle ages (from about 1400s to 1700s) outfit with it. Stylish boots, and stylish hat)

Q tells them, using "Thou", "Thy", "Thee", to go home, that they (Humans) have gone out into the galaxy far enough. Q introduces himself and we-self, the Q. The turbolift opens up with two security people, Q makes a mesh thingie appear in the doorway, so they can't come onto the bridge. Q calls himself/itself/we-self a fellow captain.

Torres pulls out a thing (A small phaser), Q turns to look at Torres (Q is currently just doing glances to use powers) and queues the freezing (To be honest, it looks more like Q sprayed some dry ice or fire extinguisher. also, the frozen bits on Torres looks like styrofoam or styrofoamy. It doesn't look good visually here. it looks to me like they coated him in frosting or some kind of sticky flour. The mesh looks realish)

 Troi "He's frozen" (I don't know if the effect would have been understood or not) Picard removes the phaser from Torres. It or Torres was harmless. (that is a tiny phaser, looks really fragile but palm-sized)

Q threatens them. cue ominous music and ominous looking close-ups

Supplementary (sheesh) (also, how exactly is Picard doing this log with Q just standing right there?)

Q speaks some, then takes the form of a US Marine (based on Colonel oliver north, according to Tvtropes and memory alpha) Q mentions patriotism while using this form. Commies. Picard says it has been centuries since that (actually in 1987, I think that the Soviet Union is still around, along with the people's republic of china)

Q and Picard debate (i think that the 400 years and 400 years it is in error because if this takes place in 2374, that would make 400 years ago as 1974 and 400 years ago from that it is 1574. I don't thinl that fully is the timeframe of the tribal gods thing that Q says)

Q makes another costume change. the drug soldier one. We learn that Torres is fine, Q makes Snide Comments, Worf asks if he clean up the bridge. Q is strutting around here. Yar steps up to comment some. (Hey! when did the two security guards in the turbolift have a chance to come inside?)

Picard brings up all about Superior beings (References to the ones that showed up in TOS/TAS, and that criticized humans over things) Picard mentions about prosecute and judge. Q likes the idea and promises to return and employ that later. Q also leaves.

Worf suggests fighting. Yar agrees. Picard consults the magic eight ball err...Troi. Picard consults Troi, who mentions about minds. Troi makes a recommendation. Picard decides to go silent and see what his ship can do. (also, maximum acceleration?) They are going to detach the saucer.

Shots of activity after Picard gives his statements (why is there a blue uniform vulcan guy in the engine room?) The ship takes off, the mesh turns into a glowy ball. Attempts to escape. Picard asks Troi about the alien being / Q. Troi tries to give an answer (It is basically that she doesn't know, but with words like very advanced and not what we could have considered a lifeform. I think Troi could have said that she doesn't know what it is but it seemed to be those)

More attempt stuff. The glowy ball is moving really fast, the ship is moving fast, but the glowy ball is catching up to the ship. Picard will arm aft photon torpordoes. (not sure what he hopes to accomplish with this, but okay) Lots of worry about redlining the ship's engines.

They won't be able to escape. Picard decides to separate the saucer. He puts Worf in command, who protests that as a Klingon he cannot allow his captain to go into command while he runs away. Picard reminds that he is a Starfleet Officer. So they will separate the ship. That means that all the families and a bunch of the crew will go in the saucer part, while the stardrive part with the main weapons and everything will do some fighting or whatever. Also, Picard, Yar, Troi, and Data all go the battle bridge. (Not sure exactly if that sounds like the right picks but whatevehs)

It's Miles! (Miles shows up to take one of station places, on the battle bridge. He is wearing a red uniform. I couldn't tell if or what his rank badge is here. I will listen to hear if it is said out loud by someone) (also, the scenes of people walking through the ship for the separation part, I could have sworn that they were going through main engineering or something. Maybe a different area, the guy that was in main engineering, the black guy in the yellow that Worf was talking with when Worf went down to tell the engine room Picard's orders, was the one that was motioning where people should be going) ((This guy is one of the background actors or stunt actors I think))

Miles has one pin, (From I could see in the shot of him, so I think that was clear. So Miles is an Ensign in this scene on the battle bridge) Picard's plan involves shooting things. Bunch of scenes of things shooting. Then separating the ships. the ships separate, the stardrive part stops to wait for the glowy ball to catch up

The Trial part. So this is a mockup of the mid-21st century, the post atomic horror. Also, it's Shang Tsung (The Bailiff guy with the staff is Cary H??? ((Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa, also played the android/alien in Space Rangers which was Linda Hunt's TV Show that I mentioned in an above post that I had seen some of)) who later plays as Shang Tsung in the Mortal Combat/Kombat live action movie) Courtroom drama (I don't get the look of the soldier guys really. They take drugs and have a machine gun type thing strapped to their right forearm. They just appear so bizarre)

Q appears in his judge's outfit. He rides around a little platform with two lion/cat statues on it. The 4 (Picard, Data, Troi, Yar) get accused of stuff. Yar beats up a soldier, who gets shot and dragged away. Data mentions the New United Stations, Q clarifies that the court happens in 2079 (Which according to later established timelines means the vulcans are hanging out/involved with earth, so who knows) and then Yar gives a speech, she gets the frozen treatment like Torres. Picard has an argument with Q, Q unfreezes Yar. Data shows off his voice mimicking skills. 

Picard makes some argument, that argues that while humans have been savage, that they should be tested on how humans currently are. Q likes that idea and will use the Farpoint mission as that test. the courtroom drama ends, and the 4 are back on the ship thing. Picard speaks with Miles, who is sitting at the Conn station.

It's Riker, and he has a personal log. He has been chilling out after being dropped off by the starship Hood. He goes to visit the leader of the aliens that built Farpoint station, and talks about he would like to learn more and how he likes everything that he has seen. the leader offers him an earth delicacy which is some fruit (I wouldn't call a basket of fruit a delicacy honestly)

Riker asks about an apple, a bowl of red apples appears, this catches attention. later in a bit, the leader guy is unhappy that that happened, and he complains that it occurred. To something and promises of punishment.

Riker meets up with Dr. Crusher and Wesley. They wander through a mall/market. Riker wants to explore the weirdness of the station but Dr. Crusher thinks it because Riker just wants to show off. Wesley mentions that it is just because Riker is a man that Dr. Crusher doesn't know. (A bit silly here in some form I guess, given the later thing with the candle and the ghost and all...) Crusher sees a red thing that she comments would look nice with Gold and pop, the cloth suddenly has that. She orders the whole thing/bolt. From the guy with the weird hat/headdress that is not saying anything. Riker comments on the change

The others wander off after some talking about the captain.

It's Geordi! with a thing across his face. It's a weird looking thing. (It's Geordi's visor, VISOR. He says with it because he was born blind??  I think it was said. He is named Geordi La Forge) He is a Lieutant but has a gold pip and a ring pip part. (Is that lieuetant junior grade then? it is the same marking for both Yar and Worf. Data has two gold pips and one ring, so Lt Comander then? Miles has one gold pip it looks like. Also Riker has 3 gold pips and Picard has 4 gold pips) Geordi is a bit uptight here. He tells Riker that the ship has arrived and that Riker should go up to the ship. (we get a shot of the saucer-less Enterprise D. I think that it look a lot better looking, more sleek looking than the ship with the saucer)

Picard welcomes Riker coldly and gets Riker up to speed. The two talk some and Picard asks some questions. Picard read a report or something on his little desktop thingie/brick. He speaks a bit, then the Saucer arrives and Riker does a manual docking (Which is a bit fast and harsh from Picard, also, it will be a while for the next type of this thing -- removing the saucer section -- happens in the show) Riker is successful with it naturally. Before this, Riker watched a show/thing that was the whole section with Q part.

(Wow, that visual goof. So there is a shot of the saucer getting closer in the viewscreen, and then it cuts away for some talking, a line of dialogue, some glances, and then cuts back to the viewscreen, for the next bit of film that it was showing before. Check it on Netflix at the mark with 50 mins and 55/54 seconds left and then again at 50 minutes and 48/47 seconds left)

So, we have some discussion between Picard and Riker. That goes on for a bit, and then we learn about Geordi and how he was blind from birth, and how his visor works (It apparently works in a weird way, with infrared, Em Spectrum, a few others; it doesn't all him to "see" "Normally" any, which is weird choice to me) We get some detail about how Geordi's visor apparently gives him pain in some way and that he can't do anything about it.

Data is escorting Admiral McCoy around, finishing up his tour. McCoy thinks that Data is a vulcan originally. (This is a fine little bit of comedy) McCoy approves of the ship and notes that taking good care of it will be great. The Hood picks up the admiral and then heads out to somewhere.

Q pops in to remind Picard that Q has not left any. Q informs Picard and the others that there is only 24 hours available. Worf also tried to shoot Q but is stopped by Picard because he would just be blasting the viewscreen.

Riker tells Picard about the planet and what it has. He mentions that the materials being used are not those of the world. the miracle events of the stuff to please is mentioned. We then learn about how Riker and Troi know each other (I would have thought, that being first officer, that Riker could have just checked the duty roster and would have found out Troi was on board) Also, They can communicate telepathically. some. We learn that the two were rommantically involved

The three (picard, troi, riker) gp visit groppler zorn and they wish to take advantage of the what the Bandi have to offer. First mention of the Ferengi. picard suggests that the Ferengi eat people. no bandi can go anywhere/want to go anywhere, and they can't help with anything being setup elsewhere.  They finish their meeting with zorn

Riker finds Data in the holodeck, and we learn how they function. We also learn that Data can tell where he is inside. Then we learn about Data, Riker learns about one of the rocks being loose, which Wes steps on (Actually based on the shot of Wes and the water/rocks, he didn't step on the loose one. The rock he is on just doesn't move, he actually does twist-turn to fall into the water, I think a poorly done stunt here) (also, Wes reminds wet after leaving the holodeck, that doesn't happen)

So, the group goes exploring (Riker, Yar, Data, Troi, Geordi) they split up and starting exploring. Troi, Geordi, Yar go wandering through some tunnels under the station. Naturally they don't bring any lights with them, (Despite how useful that would have been) and Geordi examines everything with his special vision, recognizes nothing. Data and Riker wander around up topside, before hearing some news. Troi opens her mind and has an emotoinoal moment (Also, I think that just about all the scenes featuring Troi is this episode has her in some condition or other that makes it looks like she is on the verge/edge of tears. Not the stuff before the encounter with Q but all the stuff after. It is a bit jarring)

A ship is approaching (X-Wing Class, Give him permission to land; sorry about that, I couldn't resist) Also, Wesley wanders around the bridge and then gets to sit in the Captain's chair. the ship is a flying saucer, an actual flying saucer looking thing. (Maybe there are aliens on board) (Or maybe it is an alien)

The saucer thing scans the ship, and before a little bit, Picard talks with Zorn. Then the Saucer ship/thing starts firing on the old Bandi settlement, while Picard has the ship with shields up, phasers ready, and torpedoes ready. However, he decides to currently try to figure this out. The people exploring the station finish up and go back up. Riker send Geordi, Troi, and Yar back to the ship.

Q shows up at this point to snark at the humans. He (Will be calling Q that) snarks at Picard for what Picard is doing. (This I think is Q playing the role of a Trickster Mentor. Q has no reason to interfere, but chooses to appear just about when Picard could have fired on the alien ship. It's like he is trying to get Picard to think differently in some way...) There is some further talking and then Riker says his piece, and Riker says he wants to beam over to the alien ship.

We get a short interlude of Picard, having decided that it was important enough in the limited time that there is left, to have a chat with Dr. Crusher about Wesley. It happens (I skipped ahead of this part, It's just about how Picard is trying to clear the air about his so far not so friendly conduct with Dr Crusher and Wesley. Just a section that suddenly eats into the pacing of the episode. It should have happened sooner if it needed to happen at all. Or it could have happened after everything else did. Yeesh, it is out of place)

Q reappears, there is discussion and we learn things. Plus we discover that the Ship/thing, is actually a space glowy Jellyfish. Also we see zorn rescued, that the Bandi treated the other alien thing badly. Also, Q watches the events (with a degree of smugness, but one also gets the sense of Him being very satisfied smugness about the humans that He is currently shepherding to a greater understanding)

Section of Space Jellys getting energy and meeting up and taking off. After that, Picard gets Q to Leave. Q does, while smirking that they have not seen the last of him.

----------

Episode Rating: 3 out of 5
((Episode Commentary to follow in next post))

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## russdm

Episode commentary and thoughts ----->>

Rating: 3 out 5
This episode/pilot was long, and it was also slow. It took a little long to a lead up and build up. There was some slog here. I think that they could have cut the scenes of separating the stardrive and saucer section, while also cutting the scenes of doing the reconnection of the saucer section and stardrive. Neither set of scenes are important enough to include in my opinion. Also, they could have trimmed down the scene of Picard and Dr Crusher. I don't think I recall fully what appears in this scene but I feel that it slows do the episode right when we are moving into the final act here. I am not sure Picard going down to Sick Bay to have a chat, is really the best in terms of pacing. The Holodeck scene could have been cut, and give Riker less area to walk through to find Data, along with just trimming parts there. It kinda drags a little.

The Plot was a standard Trek TOS style of plot. So nothing interesting there. You could swap out the TOS cast, and I don't think that it would change anything really.

The stuff with Q is great and pretty cool. That said, I think that I would like some of the scenes of the Enterprise sitting there with some mesh outside cut down. In those spots It drags a little bit. All of the Bridge scenes and the Trial scene, all with Q, works well. Maybe not as stretched out but they work pretty good.

I think that so far, my favorite characters are Q, Worf, Data, and Picard. I don't have a feel for the other characters yet any, and Troi, well, Troi appeared to be post Q almost always in a state near of tears or something. Like she could start crying/sobbing at any moment. It's apparent a little more in that Telepathic talk to Riker scene. This may be the make up more, or just the lighting. It was a general impression.

So, Miles. Miles is clearly an Ensign here, based on what I could see of his collar and the rank markers. A run down on ranks would be that we have a number of ranked people. That is good.

The Ranks go: Picard - Captain; Riker - Commander; Data - Lt Commander; Worf - Lt and He has a golden sash for this season since he switches out for a silver one, also his sash is the one that was worn by Kor in the Errand of Mercy episode, the sash also has Worf's house symbol on it too; Yar - Lt; Geordi La Forge - Lt.

Dr. Crusher is bit of a weird bird. Her and Wesley, I think were a little out of place, and I think a small immediate bit of scenes could have featured them and less so further on. I think the scene with Wesley asking for permission to go on the bridge and that should have been reduced, and just have Wesley in the Turbolift with Dr. Crusher coming out and talking.

As for other things, I don't think there were any real troubles/problems. I do think the episode works but it doesn't really have an "oomph" to me. It doesn't leap out or really hook me any. Q definitely does, and I want to see more of Q, but I feel, just kinda of "meh" really. it's not terrible, it's not great, it's decent.

So, Data was showing some emotional moments in this episode, a few here and there. Just little bits, but they feel more like the actor just working into the character more, remind me of the Spock emotional moments from the Cage Pilot.

So, yeah, this episode is decent in terms of rating. Not terrible, not great, a middle level of good and "meh".

Under the Rating system of Mango Shoggoth, this episode is:

3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

Trackers)

Miles O'Brien Ranking:
Encounter at Farpoint - Ensign

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## Manga Shoggoth

> Under the Rating system of Mango Shoggoth, ...


Does that qualify as a vowel pun?

(ahem)

I remember watching *Encounter at Farpoint* when it first came out in the UK. I had enjoyed the original series growing up, and mostly enjoyed the cartoon version as well.

My main memory from it is (and I hate to use the word) cringe from every time Troi appeared and a flat "what the hell" when they produced Wesley. Q himself felt like a really bad rewrite of Trelane from *The Squire of Gothos*.

I remember the effects being good, and some of the background - especially the idea of carrying families on a long mission - was interesting.

While I quickly warmed to Troi in subsequent episodes (when she started doing something other than weepy telepath), I never really took to Wesley. By the time they started trying to do something decent with him, he was already being written out.

Overall, the episode felt like a mix of some really good ideas and a few good characters let down by some really poor writing and incredibly forced drama.

What kept me with the series was that the underlying ideas looked good, and the characters mostly had potential despite the bad writing, and sure enough most of them improved as the season (and series) progressed.

Even Q, who I disliked as a cliche smug overpowered villian in most of his early appearances, improved towards the end of the series when they started to portray him more as a trickster mentor for humanity. But this interpretation was tacked on years later. At the start he was a straight cliche, and not a very good character at all.

I still think that even Wesley could have been improved by some decent writing and characterisation, but I only ever liked one of his focus episodes and all the other ones were bad, forgettable or (mercifully) unwatched.

But overall, I would agree with the score - it's a 3; A later episode of this quality would get a 2 at best, but we have to remember that this was the first episode and the whole thing needs time to get itself together. This isn't damning - Earning a 5 (or even 4) out of the gate would have been nice, but would also give the first series a high bar to live up to.

Suggestion for future episodes: Keep the plot summary smaller so everything fits in one post - we don't need a blow-by-blow account of the episode. Save that space for your commentary (which, paranthetically, was quite good).

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## GloatingSwine

> So, Miles. Miles is clearly an Ensign here, based on what I could see of his collar and the rank markers. A run down on ranks would be that we have a number of ranked people. That is good.


As the only enlisted man in all of Starfleet, Miles is required to do a lot of jobs.

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## Arcane_Secrets

> I think there's about one a season going from TNG and onward into the spin-offs. Though early on there were more as the Holodeck was a novel concept, and now they didn't have to find insane counter-part Earths like in TOS. 
> 
> There was also The Royal - I think it was called - which was a Holodeck Malfunction story even if it was an inexplicable alien simulation of a cheesy novel and not on the actual Holodeck.


....I'm already thinking of two in Season 2 alone: the episode where the transporter couldn't catch a pathogen and I won't spoil beyond that, and the one with the alien malware (which btw, sets up one of my favorite episodes in DS9).  :Small Smile:

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## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Bugbear*
> _Kick Gene Roddenberry Out, is a bit of a waste too. For everything you want to blame on Gene, he also did all the good things._


*Spoiler*
Show

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/Enchanting...ly-max-1mb.gif





> Originally Posted by *Manga Shoggoth*
> _Suggestion for future episodes: Keep the plot summary smaller so everything fits in one post - we don't need a blow-by-blow account of the episode_.


Very much seconded.

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## Dire_Flumph

> I think there's about one a season going from TNG and onward into the spin-offs. Though early on there were more as the Holodeck was a novel concept, and now they didn't have to find insane counter-part Earths like in TOS. 
> 
> There was also The Royal - I think it was called - which was a Holodeck Malfunction story even if it was an inexplicable alien simulation of a cheesy novel and not on the actual Holodeck.


I think you're remembering more than there were, and possibly mixing in Voyager where "Holodeck goes bananas" was more of a thing.

*Spoiler: Holodeck malfunction tally*
Show

For TNG, I can only think of 4 classic "Crew trapped and in danger on the holodeck" episodes (The 2 moriarty episodes, The Big Goodbye, and A Fistful of Datas), and two where they are trapped in an alien simulation (The Royale and Future Imperfect, and only on the latter is it clear that Riker was on a holodeck)

Edit:  Forgot about "The Inner Light" for the alien simulation tally, but that specifically wasn't a holodeck.  

There are two episodes where crew fall in love on the holodeck (11001001, Booby Trap), 1 crew obsessed with holodeck story (Hollow Pursuits) which might qualify.

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## Bugbear

Encounter at Farpoint

This is an Original Series, or Star Trek Phase Two, episode for the simple reason that they were making a Star Trek show.   This is what Star Trek was in the past, so they made it Star Trek in the '80's.  Remember....there was nothing else.  Sci fi on TV was a void in the mid 80's.  And you had the typical Hollywood sci fi problem:  Sci fi is just dumb stuff for kids, but er, Star Trek was "ok".  So this boxed them into making only a Star Trek like show, anything else would have gotten them laughed at.

The three arcs, Q/Farpoint/Introductions of the Characters is all a bit clunky.  The idea of throwing a random crew of strangers together and have them solve a cosmic mystery is just odd.  

Captain Picard: The non-Kirk scholar captain, Riker-The Kirk, Data- The Spock, Worf- the enemy turned ally, Yar- the Ellen Ripley copy from Alien(s) and "strong woman character", Troi- The touchy feely 80's person, Crusher- the Doctor, Laforge- blind...and, er, was there, Wesley- wow, look a kid on a sci fi show..wow, so all the kids could..um..look up to him and want to be him or something..kids and sci fi wow!

Worf and Yar get the odd couple.  Both are the tough fighter types ready for aggression and physical action.  Though in a twist Yar is made head of Security and Worf is just...um...there.  Neither gets much of a chance to do "security" or even action.

Troi gets to use her powers a lot here....but she gets the nerf quick, just like Data.

They were so crazy about avoiding the Big Three, where Kirk, Spock and McCoy were the main characters of most Star Trek....and they make a large ensemble cast, that gives most nothing to do.  Worf, Yar, Crusher, and LaForge don't get to do much other then stand around and made say a line.  

This is also why Doc Crusher only does some shopping and has drama with Picard.

And why the ship has no Chief engineer main character. 


Er...yea...Helmsman Bob had a small palm phaser, in case he needrd it to pilot the ship.  Yar and Worf are both unarmed, like everyone else.  

This episode has the silly line by Picard to "Tell everyone by PRINT OUT ONLY" the plan....because the all powerful alien can only listen to spoken words.

The holodeck eats up a ton of time...but sure a 3D virtual reality world was a very new "cool" idea back in '87, so they wanted to show it off.  Still...this would have been a lot better in another episode. 

Having Riker watch Encounter at Farpoint to get up to speed on things is just odd.  Does the Enterprise record everything and why don't we ever see this again? 

So, yes......3 out of 5 is good for me too.

----------


## russdm

To be honest, the problem with Yar and stuff to do is based more on the writers have done no research really.

Yar and Worf end up both wearing two hats, the Chief of Security hat, and the PWO - Principle Weapons Officer / Defense Officer Hats. This ends up sticking them on the Bridge with little to do, despite that in reality is not the case.

The Chief of Security functions basically like Odo from Deep Space Nine, and Garibaldi from Babylon 5. The Chief of Security is the Sheriff in the old wild west form. The role means working to investigate events among the crew of the ship/station, along with being in charge of postings of guards for sensitive or high security/topsecret locations, the protection of VIPs, Dignatories (Sp?), Flag Officers of Ranks from Commodore and Above, and Diplomats. They function as the head of a section of Military Police, or in civilians terms as being Chief of Police (Vick in Psych) or like Gibbs with his team in NCIS. This is a department of its own onboard naval vessels and also stations. It is a fairly active role and the Chief would be busy.

The PWO - Principle Weapons Officer, is in charge of weapons aboard a ship. They do all the firing solutions steps, set up the weapons, fire the weapons. They oversee the stock of the weapons on board ship, the ammunition. They have no oversight over the small arms, since falls under the role of the Chief of Security more or the Master Armorer sort of, who looks after the Armory with the guns-rifles/pistols/etc plus ammunition for that is held. They also are not involved in any way with Security, as the PWO is a bridge officer spot solely. In old wild west terms, they are the Artillery officer, the guys/gals loading the big artillery guns, loading the canons. They are the ones firing the cannons. This is also its own department. They oversee anybody also working with the weapons, the gunnery officers and teams.

So, combining the two hats means in old Wild West terms that your sheriff is also your artillery officer at the Fort. The Sheriff is helping to load the cannons, they are helping to aim and fire the cannons. They are keeping track of how much cannonball/types and powder for firing the cannons. They are keeping track of having the other material for working cannons.

Those two hats combined is completely wrong. They are two separate departments that have exactly no overlap. There is no reason as Chief of Security for Yar to man a console. She would be present as called for by the Captain, but also present during Red Alerts and maybe Yellow Alerts for Bridge Crew Safety. Meanwhile she would be in an office doing work. The person manning the console would be doing the weapons, the shields/other defenses, and any communications. That would be their sole function, doing that. They would also have staff to look over everything weapons related except for the hand held phasers of any kind, and also over the shield systems. They would not be bouncing between the two jobs.

There is no effective reason to combine the two department heads into a single role, which is why there is so little for Yar to do. The Writers did this in error because as Chief of Security, Yar would be way to busy to be constantly on the Bridge. It's a bad error to make.

When Worf gets the Job, he ends up having to wear both hats as well. They function normally as two separate departments. Even if Starfleet is mildly military, these two functions/departments should be combined, because they also involve completely different sets of training.

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## russdm

I am sorry about the Mango bit, Manga. I just recalled it wrong.

The problem with the Ensemble Cast at this point is that the writers/crew hadn't figured out where to stick the different people fully. We have a few defined roles but the others just drift.

Picard is the Captain. He performs that role
Riker is the First officer
Data floats, he drifts between helping with away teams, and he mans a console on the bridge.
La Forge floats, he drifts between helping with away teams, and he mans a console on the bridge.
Worf floats, he drifts between helping with away teams, and he mans a console on the bridge.
Yar functions as both PWO - Principle Weapons Officer and as Chief of Security, helps/goes on away teams, and mans a console
Miles drifts, mans a console, no away team function
Troi drifts, hangs out in a chair by the captain and plays a helper role, also performs as ship's counselor which would have been a full time job and she would not have been on the bridge as often as she is
Crusher, Dr. Crusher, is the chief medical officer
Wesley floats, has no established functions yet

They don't have an established Chief Engineer or Scotty, that will get picked up later by La Forge
They don't have an established Science Officer or Spock, that bounces around between Data and La Forge
They don't have an established Helm/Navigation Officer or Sulu, that bounces around between Data, La Forge, and Worf
The role of Chekov in firing weapons and mentioning shields and stuff is filled by Yar and then Worf; it's the station at the part behind the captain's seat in the bridge, the wood thing

For most of the time, the cast spends it on the bridge. several of them are not necessary here, but the idea of filling the other roles with cast members has not yet caught on. After going to Engineering, we will not be seeing La Forge on the bridge often anymore. So, that has not yet happened, it's a second season change.

I will work on condensing the Episode Plot summaries. Getting used to a sense of how much to include, how to work it best. The examples that I am following so far are the ones made by Yora for the DS9 and Babylon 5 watch threads. I will work on improvements in that.

I like Q as Q as appeared so far. I just do. I think that is due to John de Lancie's acting. Also, we have Patrick Stewart as Picard. From what I recall, Roddenberry didn't want Stewart originally as Picard. That is something I think is good that it didn't happen, and we got Stewart.

Being the first episode, neither the cast or crew have handle on the characters yet. This will be a major problem for the next episode in the season, the Naked Now, which is a comedy episode really.

Will have the next episode up, when I have the time for watching and commenting on. That will be later today

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## Cikomyr2

If you start applying naval military logic to Star Trek, you are starting at a disadvantage.

It's not about the naval military, it's about science/adventure/military. Especially in the TNG era, the tactical/security officer where the "violence character". You usually don't need a violence character for shooting aliens at the same time you need a violence character to shoot at alien * ships*.

Compare to DS9, where you had multiple "violence characters" that were covering many nuances

You had Kira, who covered political violence
You had Odo, who covered police/criminal violence
You had Quark, who covered financial violence
Garak, spycraft violence
Sisko, who was both a war victim and a "big war picture" guy
Worf was just all over the place and very well rounded

O'Brian also had this grizzled veteran edge to him that was less present than in TNG.

The problem with Star Trek main style is that most of the time the show is framed as "shop in a bottle", so there is only so much way to interact with other people in the cadre of that shop in a bottle.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> To be honest, the problem with Yar and stuff to do is based more on the writers have done no research really.


There is also the issue that she's Chief of Security on a ship where editorial decree has made it so that there will be no conflict among the crew. With a distinct lack of squeaky wheels the day to day jobs of the chief of security don't exist.

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## Manga Shoggoth

> I am sorry about the Mango bit, Manga. I just recalled it wrong.


No offence was taken - I just thought you were pulling off a pun and was acknowledging it. I am rather partial to puns.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Mando Shoggoth*
> _I am rather partial to puns._


This is the way.    :Small Tongue:

----------


## Bugbear

> To be honest, the problem with Yar and stuff to do is based more on the writers have done no research really.


Well, they are after all TV people, so they don't really do research....they do TV.  But they fail there too.  

The basic idea is the Captain is older and more a scholar, so NOT a Kirk like Captain.  He would mostly stay on the ship while the first officer ran the away teams and took care of the action, both fights and the sexy stuff.  

That is Riker, the Kirk guy.  So the Enterprise would go to a strange new world and Riker would fight the monsters and aliens, while Picard did things like negotiation.

So, I guess the idea is Riker would need a buddy to fight with, and that was confusingly made to be Yar and Worf.  Data was more support or tech then a combatant, and like I said they had to super nerf Data so he did not rule the universe.  In any fight with typical "like human" aliens Data can move super fast, shot with excellent computer pin point accuracy  and has super human strength.......but the show quickly nerfs and forgets about all that.

So Riker, Yar and Worf fighting aliens and other action adventure.

Except that idea is if TNG was TOS, as in an exact copy.  TOS was very quick to get to the "wild west like fight" .  In TOS beem down to a planet and a fight was soon to start.  Tons of TOS episodes are pure fights  that take up a bulk of the show.  

But TNG was not made to be that exactly.  Some fights and action, sure.....but nothing like TOS.  There is no fight in Encounter at Farpoint.  The space jellyfish don't make ninja antibodies to fight the crew or anything like that.  

Riker does a bit more just investigation and being in command.  Yar and Worf are just there.

As you watch the show note the actors that complained that they had nothing to do were Picard, Yar and Crusher.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> That is Riker, the Kirk guy.  So the Enterprise would go to a strange new world and Riker would fight the monsters and aliens, while Picard did things like negotiation.


Though this is commonly stated, and may at one point have been part of the plan, it's probably not how things actually hit production.

See, there's a problem with Riker being the Fighty Guy.  The problem is that he's played by Jonathan Frakes. And Jonathan Frakes has a pretty serious persistent back injury (As this series goes on you may notice that Riker has an ideosyncratic approach to chairs and is very often leaning on things, those are both ways that JF managed the back pain of either standing around all day or having to bend quickly, with some types of back pain sitting down is a bit of a mission.).  He doesn't not do fight scenes, but he's not really the E-D's go-to fight boy.

----------


## russdm

To be honest 

Picard: He was made to be a scholar type of captain and a non action guy. So he stays on the ship, doesn't go on away missions really and is just there. So he is written already to not do much

Yar: she has moments where more could have been done with her but that was not figured out by the writers. Like Janeway, they just couldn't figure out what to do with her. The few times that she does things it shows potential but the writers just miss it.

Crusher: she gets the wham of being mainly tied with wesley and without him, the writers just don't know what she is. She is supposed to be the ship's chief medical officer but there ends up being not much call for that. Frankly she suffers from the same problems as B5's Doctor Franklin.

----------


## DavidSh

In the Original Series, security was sort of a cross between marines and military police.  They both guarded the science personal and other officers who went ashore on dangerous planets, and dealt with misbehaving visitors to the ship and personal (who might be under alien influence, or otherwise not acting normally).  For reasons of drama, they aren't seen to be terribly effective in either job.  Neither task should require that the chief of security be on the bridge under normal circumstances.  (Different rules apply in the Mirror Universe, of course.)

On the other hand, McCoy spent a lot more time on the bridge than his official role really supported, and that worked fairly well.  Good writing can overcome a lack of realism.

----------


## Bugbear

> Crusher: she gets the wham of being mainly tied with wesley and without him, the writers just don't know what she is. She is supposed to be the ship's chief medical officer but there ends up being not much call for that. Frankly she suffers from the same problems as B5's Doctor Franklin.


This is a good point.

With TNG based off TOS you have the Doctor character.  McCoy is given the spot of Commander, though he does not have that rank.  Still he is almost never more then a few feet from both Kirk and Spock with something to say.  

Also a huge plot point in many TOS episodes is injuries (because there was so much physical combat and effects) and a great many episodes had "something" effecting people.

This gave the Doctor character TONS to do.  

TNG is a LOT less focused on combat and strange things that effect the crew.  This gives the poor Doctor character nothing to do.  In like a dozen episodes Dr. Crusher will "fight" the common cold though...

B5's Doctor Franklin is a great example.  Guess the idea was "sci fi show must have a Doctor"....but B4 is a huge epic story.  And a Doctor really does not fit in.  Binge watch the show and several episodes go by where poor Doc Franklin gets only a cameo.  His drug plot only gets like ten minutes of screen time, and then he gets the Walkabout episode.  He does not really do anything until the Mars arc.

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 2
The Naked Now
Stardate: 41209.2

Plot:
this episode starts out with the Enterprise traveling to make contact with a Russian named the SS tsiolkovksy (I know that I spelled that wrong, the ship is named after konstane/konstean T, a Russian Rocket Scientist or Space Guy like Oberth/etc. The ship is one of the Oberth science type ships, that was the US Grissom from Star Trek 3) which has been watching a star that is slowing falling apart. The crew of the SS T.Guy have lost their minds and end up opening an emergency hatch on the bridge. The team of Riker, Yar, La Forge, Data, beam over and check out the ship. Data works to download the ship's logs about the star. The rest of the away team explore the ship, and find that everyone is dead. Some of the crew died from freezing, and La Forge finds a clothed person in the shower unit.

Riker ends up remembering something about the "showering with clothes" and tasks Data with finding it. The away team is checked out, but as it turns out, this stuff is not filtered out at all. La Forge is infected and it spreads through the whole ship. Naturally things occur.

Wesley is messing with a version of the ship's tractor beam, and has a toy that He made to simulate the captain's voice. Wesley uses said device to take over engineering where he proceeds to have Picard declare him "Acting captain". The star breaks down and sends a rock with fire out that ends up hitting the SS T, which explodes and then the Enterprise D warps away, after Data replaced the Isolinear chips in.

The thing that Riker remembers relates to the TOS episode the "Naked time" which is brought up along with the solution there. A few tweaks makes the solution work for our crew here.

Memorable Moments:
Beverly flirting heavily with Picard in his ready room on the bridge with the strong subtext that she would like to  copulate with him (With Crusher pulling the zipper down on her uniform to expose part of her chest as part). Picard must resist for the sake of the mission. It's clear that he very much would like to indulge her, but can't right now doctor.

Yar's antics and then her asking Data how functional he is. Then making use of said functionality. Then after everything has calmed down, telling Data that nothing happened.

1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)
to
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

[Episode Commentary]
This is the first real episode and it is a comedic episode. While the comedy works some, some stuff just falls flat, like the ease of Wesley taking over and the sheer amount of fail, like how La Forge can just wander off out of Sick Bay. When Wesley uses his Picard voice simulator, the engineer lady doesn't comm the bridge to ask for any further information. That probably would have stopped all of Wesley's actions almost immediately.

Worf is not affected by the crazy, leaving him the only sane one. Riker gets affected near the end part of the episode before the new solution gets spread.

Then there is what with Yar (sleeps with Data), Troi (Who visits Riker in Engineering for some hanky-panky), Dr.  Crusher (Who visits Picard on the bridge and does her longing for the touch of a man scene), other crew (The background shows a number of crewmembers hooking up). Plus we have Troi's empathic reaction when she visits Riker with its heavy implication that most of the crew are busy getting it on.

This episode frankly hits bad spots, because we barely know the characters at this point. We go from the introductions in Encounter at Farpoint to this comedy episode. Beverly goes from having a cold distant demeanor towards Picard to barely restrained jump his bones in this episode. It's not exactly the greatest of displays.

Wesley saves the day, but then he was also responsible for the problem. His ability at turning the Tractor Beam into a Repulsor beam is interesting, but surprising that the chief engineer couldn't figure it out. It's a bit much that it would takes weeks to lay down new circuits when Wesley shows that a few simple reroutes can do the job.

Wesley naturally receives no punishment for seizing control of the ship.

Also, there is no hazmat protocol of any kind apparently. Dr. Crusher does nothing to prevent La Forge from leaving nor does she use any kind of protection, that a regular doctor is this scenario would have used. That is all bizarre.

It's not looking great so far. I did find some stuff funny for this episode but that was more just crazy it was, and how much out of character or in character everyone acts. The episode is just full of Narm: Yar, Dr Crusher, Troi, Data, Wesley.

----------


## The Glyphstone

I suspect they were still leaning into the 'Trek Show' angle at this point. Much like the eventual Tribble episode, these are just callback nostalgia references to classic TOS episodes in full episode format.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

This isn't one I've seen (I still have no idea how much of the series I've seen), but it sounds awful. It is the sort of episode that might have worked in the middle of S3, once the characters are bedded in (so to speak). But yes, as the first episode after the pilot it is a questionable choice.

(The question being "what the heck were they thinking?")

----------


## Cikomyr2

> I suspect they were still leaning into the 'Trek Show' angle at this point. Much like the eventual Tribble episode, these are just callback nostalgia references to classic TOS episodes in full episode format.


I don't think there was a "tribble episode" in TNG.

The DS9 tribble episode was in Honor of 30 years of Star Trek, so indulging in nostalgia was the point.

----------


## comicshorse

> (The question being "what the heck were they thinking?")


  A mean part of me suspects the answer is 'Gene Rodenbury was thinking it was still the 60's'

----------


## DavidSh

> This isn't one I've seen (I still have no idea how much of the series I've seen), but it sounds awful. It is the sort of episode that might have worked in the middle of S3, once the characters are bedded in (so to speak). But yes, as the first episode after the pilot it is a questionable choice.


In comparison, "The Naked Time" was the 4th episode of the original series to air, and in one of the previous episodes they hadn't settled on the full set of first season regulars yet.  I think this kind of episode can work as a quick introductory dive into the characters' psyches fairly early on, but maybe the second episode is too soon.

~~~
But we really needed random Caitians caterwauling in the corridors.  Just sayin'.

----------


## The Glyphstone

> I don't think there was a "tribble episode" in TNG.
> 
> The DS9 tribble episode was in Honor of 30 years of Star Trek, so indulging in nostalgia was the point.


Right, my bad. The tribble episode was DS9.

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 3
Code of Honor
Stardate: 41235.25

Plot:

Yar has a fight with a woman. The rest is just ways to make the fight happen, while trying to produce reasons why the fight should happen. Also, Luton gets demoted.

The actual plot -- is that the Enterprise has been sent to the planet Ligon to get a vaccine that can't be replicated and that so they need to get it from the Ligonions. The  crew welcomes Luton, the leader of the people and the crew show him around as well as gift him with a horse from the Song dynasty.

Luton kidnaps Yar and then has a whole thing about making her his top wife. There is the crew deciding to try to do diplomacy working through the Ligon to get the vaccine.

Yar and Yar (Yareena, who is Luton's wife) have a fight in a kid's jumble gym and the crew sends her back after beaming her up. She demotes Luton, who was trying to kill his wife.

Rating:

1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)

[Episode Commentary]

This episode runs on the idiot ball because there is no reason to keep Yar in Luton's care. Nor is there a reason to have Yar fight the wife, Picard should have beamed her up at that point.

The whole thing with the vaccine is wonky because vaccines are made from the virus that is dangerous. The doctor could make itself after a time. Instead she worries about if it can be replicated or not. The natives were making the vaccine without replicating it, why exactly did Crusher feel a need to try replicating it?

It's like that as soon as replicators were available that they became the solution to all problems. Get a vaccine, replicate it endlessly. It is dumb.

Picard just rolls with the actions of Luton, but never brings up how those actions would look really. This is more due to how Gene decided people would act now, with words and no actions as much.

And then it does the Trek usual of portraying a culture in a poor way. The natives are all black cast.

I really expected that based on how the episode goes before Yar's kidnapping that the crew would be taking actions and steps to earn respect. Thst is how it is molded up but then the kidnapping happens and we get Pansy Picard not doing anything about Yar because diplomacy.

I was not impressed with them

----------


## Tarmor

> Plot: Yar has a fight with a woman. The rest is just ways to make the fight happen, while trying to produce reasons why the fight should happen. Also, Luton gets demoted.


I'm tempted to say your "plot" above was your commentary. I had to actually look up the episode to have any idea what you were talking about. Even if this is considered (one of) the worst TNG episodes ever, I'd expect you to actually give us some details about what happened in the episode, then tell us why you didn't like it. Give us something to discuss. :)

----------


## comicshorse

Alternatively we could leave it at that so we can continue to pretend this Episode never happened  :Small Frown:

----------


## Cikomyr2

Yes. Let's do that. The franchise forgot this episode existed, I say we move forward. There's nothing to add to this that hasn't been said a lot in a lot of places.

----------


## russdm

Well I thought it was bad because it tries to sell that it would be about watching the crew working to the respect of the natives and getting a thing (the vaccine) from them. Instead we get Luton's domestic troubles as the focus, the Yar and Yar fight, and  everything helped along to make it happen. Then rhe writers remembered that they need to end the episode so they have things turn out all well.

According to tvtropes and memory alpha, this episode was written by the same person who wrote SG1 episode Emancipation. Which was viewed as another terrible episode.

----------


## Kitten Champion

I think that somewhat paints Katharyn Powers unfairly. Yes, Code of Honor and Emancipation are terrible, but she has written some fairly strong episodes - mostly of SG-1 - in a relatively modest television career. 

Not that she was a transcended genius or anything - and there's definitely something in this basic narrative she was going for - but rather that there's a lot going on between having a written script to what actually goes on the screen that should also be accounted for. 

This is most emphatically the case when we're discussing early TNG as we are, where there were more than a few writers who were not pleased with the ultimate fate of the episodes they were credited for.

----------


## russdm

> I think that somewhat paints Katharyn Powers unfairly. Yes, Code of Honor and Emancipation are terrible,


This is flat out wrong. Code of Honor is a terrible episode. Emancipation is just "meh". It is the SG1 episode where Carter was captured after being the trade by that guy who wanted to marry that girl and the girl wanted to marry him too. The father was against it. Then, Carter was made to be one of the father's wives.

The culture was based around that of the mongols some. Carter remained behind rather than escaping so she could take steps to help out the girl. So Carter managed to get herself fighting the father and after defeating him in combat, made him agree with letting the girl marry as she wanted and also got her own freedom.

Cary (the mandarin bailiff from Encounter at Farpoint and Shang tsung) played the father in the SG1 episode.

In Code of Honor, Yar does no actions from her own drive or interest. She takes no steps to escape while she has nothing keeping her there. In fact, nearly everyone has to hold the idiot ball for the plot to work.

Picard: forgets about having a transporter and also decides that despite what Luton did was wrong for Picard's culture, decides that trying to continue diplomacy will work out somehow. Also none of the other crew suggests beaming Yar up any, despite stealing her back from Luton would work in the kind of counting coup culture of Ligon. Seriously, counting coup is about being daring and courageous before the enemy/rival without doing any real harm. Picard could have stolen her back somehow and had earned respect for it.

Yar: she decides to fight Yar and go along with everything before despite her stated history of her planet with the rape gangs mentioned about in the past episode. She has no problem being kidnapped. Then she just sticks around until the fight with Yar. Then she agrees to fight Yar when she could have just said no.

Yar, yareena, Luton's wife: she decides to challenge Yar to a fight but it is not clear what she gains. There is nothing in the culture suggesting that Luton will get her stuff if she dies or I don't recall seeing anything suggesting that. In fact, Luton gets his title and power from his marriage.

Code of Honor is alround bad. It's a terrible episode with a premise about how Luton wants to kill his wife. That is not the impression that the episode gives you at all. The episode acts like you will get to watch the crew work on ways with interacting with the natives to impress them and so earn that vaccine they need.

Which is a major problem. Vaccines don't work the way that they are treated in the episode. There is nothing stopping Dr. Crusher from making the vaccine. But they (the writers) decided that she had to try to replicate it and that made it go all putzy (unstable) and apparently fall apart. But that is not how vaccines work.

The SG1 episode doesn't include staggering amounts of stupid to make it happen and keep going. Code of Honor does do exactly that, it requires a considerable amount of stupid to work and continue working.

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 4
The Last Outpost

Stardate: 41386.4

Plot:

The Enterprise is chasing after a ship of Ferengi design. It stole some kind of T-9 energy converter from and unmanned station (Something that would be easy to do, since unmanned means low security) and end up in a particular solar system.

This solar system is revealed later to be part of the TKON empire. After arrival, with a minor shot or two, both the Enterprise and the Ferengi are rendered immobile. Initially, the crew that the Ferengi are doing it, but learn every quickly after talking with the Ferengi leader, that they aren't.

A probe sent out reveals the force fields come from the planet below. It appears to be something worth investigating. Also, the planet thing is probably what also read through the Enterprise's databanks. That makes it definitely worth investigating.

Also, the Ferengi are mentioned as being like Yankee Trades and ascribing to "let the buyer beware" school of trading. And are described as capitalists (I think the Federation became a communist state or something)

The Ferengi and the Enterprise send a team down to the planet to investigate. They discover some giant crystals interspersed among plants and rocks. There is some engagement between the two groups, and the Ferengi zap our crew with some energy (Water Tubes, like you would use for in pools) and examine them. Then there is the bit with Yar and her having clothes.

The group manages to awaken or cause Portal, who guards the portal to the TKON Empire, which appears to test the characters. A bit of talk and an examination of human thought is carried out. after some exchange, Portal shows an interest in learning more about what has happened since the last age that it knew of. 

The Ferengi, with prodding from Portal, return the T-9 device. Both ships get all there power back, and they end up leaving. Riker suggests beaming over some Chinese finger traps.

Rating:

3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score. {Episode}
to
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects) {Ferengi as Future Villains}

[Episode Commentary]

This is the episode where we are introduced to the Ferengi as a race. They, the actors playing them, were told to act like excited gerbils. That translated out to them jumping around a little bit and waving their arms and hands a bit. It ends up being a bit much. One of the actors is Armin Shimmerman, who will go on to play Quark on Deep Space 9

The Ferengi are basically a version of Yankee Traders and are very much charaictures of some groups. They make for an interesting display.

Sadly, there were plans to make the Ferengi a new villain race. That of course doesn't work out and the episode goes to some lengths to effectively defang them before the episode is over even halfway that they will not work. Basically due to the portrayal, the writers and Gene ruin any chance of seeing them as actual threats. That will force them to shift the Ferengi to different roles. There is also a replacement needed to be made because of that. This means that the writers don't have a replacement villain for the Klingons or the Romulans.

The Ferengi will go to appear some more and go on to great portrayal as comic relief, until Deep Space 9 humanizes them up.

Wesley has not showed for the last episode or this one. Which is interesting. It will also change some as we go along here.

----------


## Cikomyr2

That episode is truly abysmal. But at least it has some interesting stuff to point and laugh at.

Sfdebris rightfully pointed out that the Ferengi's core concept is broken from the get go. They are meant to be "Yankee Capitalists", and yet acted secretly from the federation for years? Yankee traders were not renown to be subtle or discreet.

They had to actually write a novel to rationalize this. Basically the non canon explanation is that the Grand Nagusx upon learning that the Federation was without money, declared that the Federation was ran by mad people, and ordered to prevent all contact with such a crazy society.

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 5/6
Where No One Has Gone Before
Stardate: 41263.1

Plot:
Ah the one with the Traveler. And Wesley gets made an acting Ensign.

This episode has the crew receive a warp specialist that can improve ship engines. As it turns out, that is actually want the guy's assistant is doing, and said assistant is traveling around to explore, bartering his/its services with propulsion in exchange for travel. It's not clear exactly when the Traveler meet K (The specialist) or if the traveler encouraged K's ideas. All for the Traveler to get the ability to travel around.

Wesley notices that the Traveler phases out some (Basically disappears and reappears). The Traveler sends the ship to 2 different places, one is galaxy M-33 and the other is Weirdo Land. In Weirdo Land, people can think things and make them real. It is not a safe place. The Crew need to leave before they end up destroying themselves. Through the traveler's help, they succeed. K's Ego, practically a character here, (He is very Egocentric) takes a blow after learning He didn't do anything really.

The Traveler mentions Wesley having superpowers. And convinces Picard to make Wesley an Acting Ensign, with all that entails. (Lots of work)

[Episode Rating]
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

{Episode Commentary}
The best moment in this Episode is in my opinion, the Picard Turbolift Scene, where Picard exits the Turbolift into what is basically empty Warp. It shows where Picard's thoughts dwell, and the moment is great because how evocative of a similar kind of scene from Doctor Who. Such an amazingly performed scene, and I think the one that makes Picard able to really understand what is happening in the Weirdo Land the ship ended up in.

The rest of the story is pretty basic. It's not one of the first seasons hidden gems of quality, as we have 4 more Episodes to get to the first (Hide and Q) and 7 for the second (Datalore). [There are a number of these "Hidden Gems", which in my opinion are simply amazing episodes. Others may disagree freely, though I would want commentary from you, why you think that I am wrong]

The Episode doesn't do anything wrong really, but not impressive either. And it goes through very little in regards to Wesley to make it terrible there. Just an average episode.

----------


## russdm

So, Encounter at Farpoint was a two-parter episode, being Episodes 1 and 2. So we are actually at Episode 6 and going to watch Episode 7 next. That will be fixed later.

Another interesting point is going with the Stardates, and figuring out the Episodes in universe chronogical order of when they are supposed to take place. I will leave that to interested parties.

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 7
Lonely Among Us
Stardate: 41249.3

[Plot]
The crew are to ferry delegates from two worlds to a neutral planet/planetoid for talks. One is a race of serpent people called the Selay, and the other is a race of wolf like people named Anticans. Both groups have recently achieved space flight (Maybe Warp, maybe just their versions of the Russian/American Space Programs) and so they are also interested in joining the Federation.

Meanwhile...

The Crew encounter a floaty cloud in space traveling at warp. Through a series of events, they somehow manage to either capture or hijack some cloud energy, which then goes about trying to get home to the cloud.

Meanwhile...

There are problems with the Anticans and the Selay. And the travel to the neutral planet is a problem. Then one of the Selay delegates is going to turn into dinner for the Anticans.

[Rating]
1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)

{Episode Commentary}

This is a real whimper of an episode. The energy cloud creature/entity could have been interesting and it's own plot, but it lacks much or any real development, and no tie back to the neutral planet story. Which is a poor decision.

The plot between the Selay/Seley, and the Anticans, exists more than anything to preach about food views and about eating meat/etc, as no respect is given to any of the reasons that the two races are in conflict. Religion is mentioned along with economic systems, but are treated dismissively with a "everybody love one another" message in general. Real life conflicts are due to myriad of reasons. That could have been explored, what reasons the two sides had to be in conflict, but the entire real point is that, the Anticans end up trying to eat the Selay/Seley.

The two plots are interwoven but neither plot is actually any good. Some interesting explorations could have been made of either individual plot, but the two combined just don't work because they have very different feeling, and neither seem that related. The two plots should have been made their own episodes instead, which have worked better in my opinion.

One member of the Antican bunch is played Marc Alaimo who shows up later in another role. And Miles is back in this episode. That's great.

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 8
Justice
Stardate: 41255.6

[Plot]

The crew have finished setting up a colony and have discovered a new paradise kind of world. The Doctor suggests that the crew need some shore leave. This is agreed with by Picard, who awaits news from the Away Team about the planet. The planet is occupied/lived on by the Edo, a race of human looking aliens wearing skimpy barely there outfits. The Edo also have a pretty free love society and are very open to stuff (Free love stuff, this board/forum is PG in Rating, I believe) happening.

Picard sends Wesley down along with the team to explore how much shore leave is possible. Apparently the Edo have no crime, but do have a system of Justice involving areas designated as crime areas, with anybody who breaks the law dying. Not like individual sentences, but one punishment for everything.

Naturally, Wesley runs afoul of the law, and gets to be punished. Sadly, despite nearly everything pointing out that Picard can just beam Wesley away (something that would have been useful in the Code of Honor episode) Picard decides to go for being Lawful over Good and insists on following the letter of the Prime Directive more so than the Spirit. Since that ends up with with trouble, a solution must happen.

Meanwhile...

Data has discovered the existence of some aliens posing as "God" for the Edo (the only thing that seems to happen in Star Trek of a divine nature, aliens posing as "God" or a God-like being) and they communicate with Data and Picard. The Edo "God" make their feelings known, and Picard carefully measures an approach to appeal to them in some form.

Meanwhile...

Through some different steps, and a serious hammy Patrick Stewart Speech (The first of many, so it gets a tracker), the Edo "God" decides and accepts the crew taking Wesley with them. Whee.

[Rating]
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

{Episode Commentary}

Well, this episode covers a lot over how the Justice systems of other civilizations and species should be recognized, which would have made a great episode to follow. Sadly, this is not that episode, instead we get Wesley facing death over falling over into a flower bed. Seriously.

The issue with the Prime Directive makes Picard look like bit of an ass in that he pushes following it instead of just doing something else, and makes it an issue, when it is not clear that the Edo "god" aliens will care as much. The Writers try to build in some reasoning for Picard to use. Unlike what Janeway would get with her being a different kind of captain any given week treatment.

Exploring the idea that you can't run over some other party with their justice system and impose your own, is a nice story. It is one that is very much a good Star Trek story, but the way it was cast in this episode just makes the whole matter not work. There is just no way of making a convincing arguement and much of what happens ends up being plot contrivances.

I don't recall if we get another shot at the attempted story in Justice or not, about how you have respect the culture of a people that is not you, but it might be there.

Trackers)
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2 (It came up in Code of Honor, and here)
Patrick Stewart Speech: 1 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)

----------


## Cikomyr2

> One member of the Antican bunch is played Marc Alaimo who shows up later in another role. And Miles is back in this episode. That's great.


Everyone involved in Star Trek production at the time really loved Marc Alaimo, as he kept popping up in minor roles, until they designed the Cardassian, a race explicitly visually designed to enhance Alaimo's natural features (like his elongated neck and his pronounced brow). And then he became the biggest recurring guest actor in the history of Star Trek.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> the only thing that seems to happen in Star Trek of a divine nature, aliens posing as "God" or a God-like being...


TOS and the cartoon series did this in places as well, although I think they tended to pull it off better. Mostly because it was the focus of the story rather than a plot element.

----------


## russdm

> Everyone involved in Star Trek production at the time really loved Marc Alaimo, as he kept popping up in minor roles, until they designed the Cardassian, a race explicitly visually designed to enhance Alaimo's natural features (like his elongated neck and his pronounced brow). And then he became the biggest recurring guest actor in the history of Star Trek.


I am not complaining about that. I thought that it was worth mentioning because he showed up again until he got the role of Dukat.

There are a few other actors who played in different episodes and kept coming back.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> TOS and the cartoon series did this in places as well, although I think they tended to pull it off better. Mostly because it was the focus of the story rather than a plot element.


Though when TOS did it it was fifty fifty whether it was aliens or a computer.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *russdm*
> _2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)_


I happened to catch this one recently, and I'd say you're being generous here.  Id give it a 1.5 at most.  It was pretty gawdawful for a lot of reasons, including some extremely clunky 80s acting.  

Also, as far as tracking things, how about tracking the use and re-use of ship & station models throughout the series?  The Edo divine-thingy, which only appeared in translucent form in this episode, was re-used in a later season as an enemy space station.1  

*Spoiler*
Show

Cant recall the title, but I think fifth or sixth season, in which the crews memories were suppressed and they were nearly manipulated into destroying a much less advanced interstellar power.  

Also notable for a one-night stand involving Riker and Ro Laren.  Sorry, imzadi, the alien mind control made me do it wasnt an excuse that got him very far.


Some of the early episodes also used the movie miniatures for Regula One (upside down) and Spacedock as random starbase exteriors, which could also be fun to track.




> Originally Posted by *russdm*
> _There are a few other actors who played in different episodes and kept coming back._


Shout-out for Tim Russ, who played three different characters in the TNG era, as well as others in some oddball fan-made series Id never heard of before.  

And, amusingly, a bit part in Spaceballs.

----------


## russdm

> I happened to catch this one recently, and I'd say you're being generous here.  Id give it a 1.5 at most.  It was pretty gawdawful for a lot of reasons, including some extremely clunky 80s acting.  
> 
> Also, as far as tracking things, how about tracking the use and re-use of ship & station models throughout the series?  The Edo divine-thingy, which only appeared in translucent form in this episode, was re-used in a later season as an enemy space station.
> Some of the early episodes also used the movie miniatures for Regula One (upside down) and Spacedock as random starbase exteriors, which could also be fun to track.
> 
> Shout-out for Tim Russ, who played three different characters in the TNG era, as well as others in some oddball fan-made series Id never heard of before.


*Spoiler: Your Spoiler*
Show

That Episode was Conundram
.

For that tracker, I would be checking on Memory alpha to be sure.

Well, Tim Russ (Tuvok) shows up in a later episode.

I gave the Episode a 2 rating because, coming from TOS, TAS, The TOS movies; the acting or other stuff is not that terribly bad. In a later season, I might have given it a lower score, because they should have no reason for making outright terrible episodes.

The thing is; this season has been at 3 or lower using Mango's/Manga's scale. There are better episodes (4s) and Gems (5s), but very few if at all. Being the First season of the show, I am letting things slide, because everything is all new, new for the fans, new for the actors.

I also have a different scale of quality I think than most. So, I may rate some episodes higher than others would. Which is something for people to be busy discussing about.

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 9
The Battle
Stardate: 41723.9

[Plot]

The crew were requested to meet up at a place. They go there and find a Ferengi ship that doesn't say anything. Picard starts getting a headache. Three days pass before anything happens.

The Ferengi contacts the Enterprise and does an introduction with a request to beam over. Three Ferengi beam over onto the bridge. A Diamon/Daimon Bok, Kazago, Rata. Bok offers and gives Picard his old ship back, the Stargazer. The other Ferengi are surprised over the gift.

The crew want to learn more, and Picard tells them a story about an encounter that he had at Maxia. He encountered a ship, which turned out to be Ferengi, and had a violent result. He ended up using a special manuever. During his recollection, Picard calls out to his officer, from the Stargazer, not Will. It is a bit weird, but no one thinks anything of it.

Picard and the Crew go exploring the Stargazer. They inspect it and see what it's quality is. Picard finds a box in his quarters. The box is important. Picard has some more head problems.

Riker takes time to connect with the Ferengi, Kazago, who Riker berates a little over the gift, and what exactly is going on. Riker manages to insult Kazago, each time (2 contacts). Not the best work.

We get a few shots of Bok working with a device similar to what is in the box that was brought back from Picard's Stargazer quarters. Bok uses the device to affect the captain, giving him headaches. Bok takes some glee with doing so.

Picard ends up beaming over to the Stargazer after some events and Bok using the device. Bok arrives, or sends a message, while putting Picard under the device use, to inform him about how the ship that Picard destroyed was Bok's Son's. Bok found the Stargazer and heard all of the logs, and plotted revenge. Bok is caring out his revenge. He makes it so Picard ends up attacking the Enterprise and see ghosts.

Riker finds out some things. Riker ends up having to fight Picard in the Stargazer, he asks Data how to defeat the Picard Manuever. They do. Riker talks Picard into blowing up Bok's device. Which Picard does.

Riker, or the crew/etc. Find out that the device that Bok was using, was a forbidden Ferengi thing. Kazago ends up arresting Bok, claiming (according to Riker) that there was no profit in revenge. Picard says that there never is.
(Also, despite the ability of the crew, only Wesley figures out the connection between some scans/beeps going on with Picard's head and the Ferengi ship, revealing the whole deal with the forbidden Ferengi Device)

[Rating]
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.
to
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

{Episode Commentary}

So, this is the real true Ferengi episode that we get. It shows the potential that the Ferengi could have, had they been given a better set of setups. None of the Ferengi are jumping around. Everyone is acting seriously, or that serious matters are happening. So all in all, good there.

The part of Wesley being the only one able to figure out anything about the Device and it working on Picard was bad. But I think that I may have ignored it some. It is not a great bit, to make the crew so incompetent here, but this is the first season, still.

I like Bok as a villain, because the performances between the two actors, Patrick Stewart and Bok's work so well. You really do get the sense of Bok being driven by revenge, and by the Stargazer and all about it, really affecting Picard deeply. That whole bit could have been played completely for laughs.

The episode shows itself really to be a good solid 4 for most of it, but it starts failing close to the end, along with the Wesley bit. The entire part about "No profit in revenge", just comes out of nowhere, and feels like a hammered in Aesop, as opposed to anything realistic.

To be honest, I take the view that Kazago realized that if something happened with the Enterprise surviving in some way, that the Federation would most likely complain to the Ferengi government over the events, and that mention of Bok using that forbidden "Thought Maker" device would become public knowledge for Ferengi. That would be really bad for Kazago, so He acted then to avoid getting his reputation damaged.

My real beef/annoyance with the "No profit in revenge" Aesop, is that it is a Human Aesop. I like my aliens having alien customs and attitudes, because they don't/shouldn't have to stick with human morals or whatever. That is why I like the Klingons and Romulans and Cardassins so much. Very different moral outlooks.

My other beef/annoyance is how much "no profit in revenge" is a {scrubbed}

We get a taste of this in the "Lonely Among Us" episode, that seems to cast the conflict between the Anticans and Seley/Selay over completely nonsensical reasons (Religion, Economic systems) to the crew, the episode treats the idea of the Anticans eating meat as being a war crime with a speech about how horrible it is from the Crew (it is mentioned as being "enslaving animals for food purposes"), and the episode ends up with the fact that the Anticans/or-just-one has killed a Seley/Selay and is trying to eat it.

{scrubbed}

The Crew entirely act that being as morally superior or culturely developed as they have gotten is free entitlement to treat the groups/races/civilizations that have not reached the same point with condenscion and derision. It's not the sort of portrayal I would expect for a Federation that people want to be a part of.

{scrubbed}

Trackers)
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2 
Patrick Stewart Speech: 1 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Pithy Aesops: 1
{scrubbed}

----------


## Scarlet Knight

So this is the first episode that points to Wesley as being Star Trek's Mozart child prodigy, I guess.

----------


## Cikomyr2

> So this is the first episode that points to Wesley as being Star Trek's Mozart child prodigy, I guess.


Seeing the rather amazing list of genuine geniuses that exist in the Trek verse, it's really impressive.

----------


## The Glyphstone

Maybe he actually projects a Stupidity Field, empathically draining the intelligence from everyone around him.

----------


## Cikomyr2

> Maybe he actually projects a Stupidity Field, empathically draining the intelligence from everyone around him.


So some sort of intelligence vampire.

that sort of technology in the Star Trek verse is clearly already existing. The Red Shirts of TOS had a similar field that drained all the bad luck.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> So some sort of intelligence vampire.
> 
> that sort of technology in the Star Trek verse is clearly already existing. The Red Shirts of TOS had a similar field that drained all the bad luck.


In TNG they use ensigns in much the same way. They're made to sit at strategically placed bridge consoles that are designed to fail like fuses to protect the important staff.

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

> In TNG they use ensigns in much the same way. They're made to sit at strategically placed bridge consoles that are designed to fail like fuses to protect the important staff.


...important consoles or important crew members?

----------


## The Glyphstone

> ...important consoles or important crew members?


Yes. characters

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 10
Hide And Q
Stardate: 41590.5

[Plot]

The crew are on their way to assist a colony that had some kind of accident. We see preparations being made for that. The ship is traveling at Warp 9.1

Then Q shows up to say hi. Q appears as a three-headed serpent with a glowing ball/orb/bubble, then appears as a Starfleet Admiral. Then Q takes the crew, minus Picard to some planet.

Q says, before taking the crew, that the Q are interested in humans. The Q want to learn, and Q is there to help. Q promises to give Q powers. Q takes the crew to a planet, to have a game. Then Yar gets put in a penalty box.

Q appears a French Field Marshal, and speaks with Riker. They have a pretty friendly conversation. Q describes about the reason for the "games". Q gives Q power to Riker. Riker uses the Q power to spend them back.

During part of this, Picard is alone on the Bridge. He tries a few different things, nothing works. Yar shows up for penalty. Yar and Picard talk. Q shows up to speak with Picard, then the two share Shakespeare quotes in Picard's ready room. Then the others come back. Then events happen that Riker sends everyone back.

Riker learns some things about the Q and the galaxy, while the others are briefly gone. Then Riker sends everyone back.

Picard convinces Riker to not use the Q powers any. Riker agrees. The crew go to the colony place. They perform their mission.

Riker misses a chance to save a child, because he promised Picard that he wouldn't use the Q powers. Riker agonizies over this, then complains some. Riker also lets the new powers go a little bit to his head. He gets more familiar with the captain, calling him "Jean-Luc". Picard notices that.

The crew finish their mission, and Riker gives everybody some gift. They are very touching ones. Of course, Riker gets some backlash from the crew, who don't trust him. Q shows up again, speaks some, and then has to acknowledge the wager made earlier. After the Q take Q away, the crew comment on the Q's problems with humans.

They head off to new adventures.
[Rating]
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on
Hidden Gem Episode

{Episode Commentary}

Well, the plot summary is probably not fully accurate, and I am not mentioning everything that happened. Still, I would say that...

This is one of the Hidden Gems that I mentioned before that were in the first two seasons. This episode is probably one of the best from Season 1, and only a couple more can top it or as good. (I will mention those when we get there)

I love the performances by John de Lancie, Patrick Stewart, J Frakes (Plays Riker). They really sell this episode and what happens. The other performances are pretty great as well, though there is not much of them. The episode really could have turned far worse than it did.

We learn an awful lot about the Q in this episode, plus we have very great humanizing moments for Picard, like his lines with Q and how Picard reads Shakespeare (like the Actor). Then we have how much "human" Picard is, how much he comes across as caring in this episode, due to the scenes with Yar being in the Penalty box. Those are lovely scenes too, and really go to show what kind of character Picard could become.

I think that it is rather surprising that this episode is so good. Sure there are some technical goofs with the remasters (I don't know if that is what Netflix has) but overall the story is good.

The other plot, about the colony, is given just enough drama and gravitias that it works with the other story. The last attempted two-plot story episode, "Lonely Among Us" did rather poorly with its two plots and trying to mesh them together. It all works here, somehow. Probably due to how it focuses on the crew in a human type way.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree?

Trackers)
Hidden Gems: 1
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 2 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 1

----------


## Cikomyr2

I felt that Riker's flip to the dark side at the end was prompted by his denial of his new ability. He was angry at the situation, and thought everyone resented him for sticking to his guns.

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 10/11
Haven
Stardate: 41294.5

[Plot]

The crew have arrived at a planet called "Haven", where the crew are stopping off for R&R. On the Bridge, Picard mentions the rumors/stories about the planet. Data responds. There is a request for beaming.

A box is beamed on board that talks. We learn that Deanna has an arranged marriage.

We meet the Millers and Lwaxana Troi, Deanna's mother. We learn that Deanna's father was human. Lwaxana is a pretty big ham. We meet Wyatt who Deanna is to marry, but he has been thinking of someone else.

Preparations go under way for Deanna and Wyatt's marriage, when a ship arriving. It is a plague ship, but has the woman that Wyatt has been thinking of and drawing on board. Being a doctor/medical-student, Wyatt goes on board, to meet the woman and also to help cure the plague. The ships leaves.

The Millers leave, Lwaxana leaves. Earlier in the episode there were some party moments for the wedding. The episode concludes with the crew off to their new/next destination.

[Rating]
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.
&
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

{Episode Commentary}
This episode waffles between being "Good" and "Average". Pretty much everything besides Lwaxana is not all that impressive and just doesn't linger with you. Wyatt and his deal, is actually interesting, and is the other good part of this episode. It makes for some nice little interpersonal conflict between the woman and Deanna, which will Wyatt pick.

Lwaxana is of course the star of the Episode and the actress is hamming it up. She also did the original pilot as Number Two. She also voiced the computer. Her assistant is interesting some too. We also get some nice acting moments / character moments for Picard, Data, Riker, and Troi. Those are always nice.

Lwaxana will be coming back of course, and will always make a big splash whenever she does. She is one of the better secondary characters for the show.

The box that shows up for the transporter pad is of course played by Armin Shimmerman who would be playing Quark. So, this and the episode "The last outpost" both feature him.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree?

Trackers)
Hidden Gems: 1
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 2 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 1

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

The one thing this is doing is highlighting the number of episodes I have either not seen or completely forgotten. I have no memory of this one at all.




> Season 1 Episode 10/11
> [Rating]
> 4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.
> &
> 3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.


Pick _one_. The whole point of a rating is that it is a single measurement. (That's why my original suggestion had seperate scores for Story, Character, Technical, Lore and Overall - that way you can score each broad area, then give an overall score)

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

> The one thing this is doing is highlighting the number of episodes I have either not seen or completely forgotten. I have no memory of this one at all.


Second this.




> Pick _one_. The whole point of a rating is that it is a single measurement. (That's why my original suggestion had seperate scores for Story, Character, Technical, Lore and Overall - that way you can score each broad area, then give an overall score)


Disagree here. Im perfectly fine with a range, especially since russdm is explaining the reason for the score.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Kareeah_Indaga*
> _Im perfectly fine with a range, especially since russdm is explaining the reason for the score._


Seconding this.  OP is doing the heavy lifting in terms of watching, evaluating and writing up an extensive summary of each episode.  I'm fine with the occasional borderline rating, especially since, as noted, OP explains his reasons for the dual rating on this one.

As for remembering episodes, most of these I remember very well, but this one counts as "just barely."  That's partly because I try to block out all memory of Lwaxana, who I can't stand.  

Nice catch on Armin Shimmerman as the voice of the box, though.

----------


## The Glyphstone

Its no different than just saying "3.5" on a 1-5 scale.

Maybe we need a tracker to track our number of trackers?

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> Disagree here. Im perfectly fine with a range, especially since russdm is explaining the reason for the score.


Fair enough, but in that case put 3.5, rather than pasting in both scores (or use A to E and say C+ or B-). But once you start going outside the 5-point score you might just as well start using a more expanded range of scores.

*Spoiler: Engage rant mode...*
Show


This is a bit of a red rag to me - I see lots of different scoring systems such as:

Score 1 - 3 (Good, OK, Bad) - limited because there is almost no nuanceScore 1 - 5 (Excelent, Good, OK, Bad, Terrible) - my favourite (and the one that used to be used in work reviews)Score 1 - 5 (Excelent, Good, Just above OK, Just below OK, Bad, Terrible) - The one work now uses (apparantly it is not OK to be OK any more). Also the one used by the old O-levels, but they mapped roughly to percentage scores.Score 1 - 10 (usually with no explanation apart from 1 = terrible and 10 = perfect) - used by certian review sites, where the range is too wide to have meaning, and people end up being offended if they don't get 9 or 10, meaning that essentially most of the scale is useless anyway)
...And most of the time they are better off using and sticking with a 5-point system. KISS is an acronym for a very good reason.






> OP is doing the heavy lifting in terms of watching, evaluating and writing up an extensive summary of each episode.


And mostly doing a pretty good job.




> As for remembering episodes, most of these I remember very well, but this one counts as "just barely."  That's partly because I try to block out all memory of Lwaxana, who I can't stand.


I didn't care much for the character, but she wasn't all that bad and improved in later appearances. She also made a very good appearance in DS9.

----------


## Gnoman

> Lwaxana is of course the star of the Episode and the actress is hamming it up. She also did the original pilot as Number Two. She also voiced the computer.


Majel Barrett Rodenberry was also regular TOS cast member as Nurse Christine Chapel.

----------


## russdm

I can add in the .5 parts for the ratings. That won't be a problem. I use the "&" part because of episodes that follow under more than one during the run of the episode.

Some episodes have the same level of quality throughout so they get one rating. Some have a bit of varying along their quality line and so end up with some parts that follow in that and parts that fall below.

I am trying to keep the ratings down to a minimum of one and a maximum of two.

Think of my doing "&" for ratings being that it fell as being a mix of those ratings through the episode.

I will be putting in "& .5" to make it easier

----------


## russdm

> Nice catch on Armin Shimmerman as the voice of the box, though.


This may be listed in the credits at the end of the episode. 

In the memory alpha section for the episode, i think that it mentions that he did the box role. In the memory alpha section for the episode of The last outpost, it mentions it i think.

I am using the memory alpha wiki for the show as it has a full write up and I check it for parts that i miss in my summary that ought to be included.

Memory alpha wiki has information for each episode with stuff about production details, cast/crew feelings or thoughts,  continuity, then other things 

It has that for all of the different shows and their episodes and all the movies.

I am also using the recap list for the tvtropes the next generation post, as well for looking at stuff.

Then I have a tab with Manga's rating idea post open when I watch an episode.

So it is usually: Manga's post tab; new post to the thread tab; Netflix tab (for watching the episode); tvtropes tng recap of episode tab; memory alpha wiki of episode; 

That helps me when writing a new post. Watch the episode, write a summary, catch on memory alpha wiki for plot events that need to be included, catch both after deciding and listing my rating, and then commentary along with notes from tvtropes or memory alpha.

In fact I didn't know about the box role for Armin without reading it on memory alpha.

Memory alpha also has the stardates with all of the episodes in the tables of episodes for each season but i have added in the stardate after listening to Picard say it.

We are a couple of episodes away from another hidden gem episode i believe. We have  an episode or two then it is the below

After all, soon up is the episode "Datalore" where we will get to meet Lore, Data's brother for the first time.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *russdm*
> _After all, soon up is the episode "Datalore" where we will get to meet Lore, Data's brother for the first time._


Not entirely by coincidence, I've just been watching Star Trek: Nemesis.  Safe to say that Data has a complicated family, especially given the events of ST: Picard.

But as Conan's chronicler would say, that is a story for another thread.    :Small Tongue:

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 11
The Big Goodbye
Stardate: 41997.7

[Plot]

The episode starts with Picard getting ready to speak to some aliens. He has to study the words, because they have to be given in a certain form or way, otherwise the aliens take offense.
Troi suggests he take some time off. He does, by going to visit the holodeck. Picard starts up the adventure about Dixon Hill, a private eye.

The holodeck adventure runs, with Picard enjoying it. The first time that he goes in, he is still wearing his uniform for starfleet. He changes into a more proper period outfit. Then Picard goes ahead and mentions the adventure to a few others. A guy named Whalen joins, along with Data, and then Dr. Crusher.

Picard doesn't anything about what is going in the holodeck program, so he tries to figure it out. He is joined by Data and Whalen and Dr. Crusher.

The aliens send out a probe to scan the ship or something. It breaks the holodeck so that the weapons become lethal, and that there is danger now. The crew try to do what they can to help, which is not much.

Through events, Picard plays through the Dixon Hill program, and ends up having the the two major bad guys leave the holodeck, where they dissolve away. With that done, Picard can have Whalen taken to sickbay as he was shot. The bad guys were looking for something, think that Picard knows about it, and ended up learning nothing.

With the program over, Picard goes to the bridge, where he delivers the greeting to the aliens in all of their required forms. Picard and Data are still wearing the holodeck outfits as the episode ends.

[Rating]
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

{Episode Commentary}
This is of course, the first episode featuring a holodeck breaking and establishes about the "safety" features. Naturally, those features break in this episode. For a first time of this sort, the idea is interesting and new. Later  episodes would have a faulty holodeck, making this trope/thing become a little stale.

This episode is rather nothing special and not that bad, but not that great. There is the crew's fascination with things of the general 20th century, which is bit weird. Then there is not much really to shine here, but nothing that wreaks either.

I mean, the Dixon Hill idea, and Picard liking those kind of detective novels is interesting in terms of personalization, but I don't know how often the Dixon Hill thing comes up again. The aliens all don't show up again, and the fact that for 20 years, they (Starfleet/Federation) have getting the alien greeting wrong, just doesn't feel/seem that great. It seems a little too incredible to have occur, especially since it doesn't seem, thanks to the episode's events, that the phrasing should be so challenging. Bit of a disappointment there.

The better episode over alien communication issues and such, is of course the "Darmok" episode, though it doesn't involve getting a greeting right, but Picard figuring out how to communicate. "Darmok" is one of the better episodes out there, but we are still in season 1

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Hidden Gems: 1
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 2 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 1
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

Yet another one I haven't seen!

Sounds like the premise of the episode is OK, but the framing narrative with the Jaradar feels like a waste of time. Something like that should have been the focus of an episode, rather than a prologue and postscript.

I'm not a big fan of framing stories like this - if the story can't shand up on its own without a frame, it probaly wasn't worth the effort, and if it can there's little point in having the frame.

----------


## Cikomyr2

I think the Jarada were meant to be what the Borg ended up becoming. They initially thought the Borg to be an insectoid specie but scrapped the concept for budget reasons.

Think about it. A dogmatic alien who speaks with one voice and can act hostile for alien reasons. Yhea, that describe about 40%of all Star Trek encounters, but it also describes the Borg.

----------


## The Glyphstone

The Tracker count is up to 8, or 9 if you count the Tracker Tracker itself.

----------


## russdm

> I think the Jarada were meant to be what the Borg ended up becoming. They initially thought the Borg to be an insectoid specie but scrapped the concept for budget reasons.
> 
> Think about it. A dogmatic alien who speaks with one voice and can act hostile for alien reasons. Yhea, that describe about 40%of all Star Trek encounters, but it also describes the Borg.


Actually you are wrong over this.

The borg were originally conceived to have some tie-in to the aliens that appear in the "Conspiracy" episode, the one before the last season one episode. That dropped out quickly.

The episode "the neutral zone " contained areas that had been affected by the borg. So they technically make their first unofficial appearance in that episode. They later show up in a different form from what they turned into in the second or third season episode that featured Q showing up. Guinan had joined the crew and cast before this point in time.

The borg were originally conceived as being a race hivemind insects and had a few other features. They quickly, because of reasons (no money for it), ended up becoming the cyborg people.

Edit update: thank you so very much for making me look up stuff on the borg. I am sure that I won't have any interesting dreams/nightmares featuring them...

----------


## Gnoman

> Sounds like the premise of the episode is OK, but the framing narrative with the Jaradar feels like a waste of time. Something like that should have been the focus of an episode, rather than a prologue and postscript.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of framing stories like this - if the story can't shand up on its own without a frame, it probaly wasn't worth the effort, and if it can there's little point in having the frame.


I disagree here quite a bit. In a low-continuity series such as this, you've only got 45 minutes to focus on anything. Even the Klingons, Vulcans, and Federation Humans are only explored to a fairly shallow depth, and the aliens-of-the week get far less. Having them be a single-trait race beacause that's all that matters and is encountered is far better.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> I disagree here quite a bit. In a low-continuity series such as this, you've only got 45 minutes to focus on anything. Even the Klingons, Vulcans, and Federation Humans are only explored to a fairly shallow depth, and the aliens-of-the week get far less. Having them be a single-trait race beacause that's all that matters and is encountered is far better.


Only 45 minutes to focus on anything? Then _don't bother wiith the unnecessary framing device!!_

As far as I can see there was literally no need to make up a race, give it a reason to be around in the prologue and then sort it's business out in the epilogue. They could have just had Picard getting stressed over paperwork and it would have worked equally well. Instead they wasted something that had the potential for a full episode as a frame for a _completely unrelated story!_

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 12
Datalore
Stardate: 41242.4

[Plot]

The one with Data's brother Lore!

We learn about Omicron Theta, the place where Data was found. The colony of Omicron Theta was destroyed. Data was found by a Starfleet ship. Close to where Data was found, is found a lab that Data was built in. The lab has another android like Data, locked away in storage.

The crew decide to pull out this android and end up putting "him" back together. That happens and we are introduced to Lore. Lore makes a few comments about being a more primitive version (Or comments are made about how Lore is more primitive in design than Data)

We watch the crew interact with Lore some, while Wesley holds a few doubts. As things move along, it turns out the Lore, is well, nuts. Like really really nuts.

Lore calls in the Crystal Entity, a giant snowflake thing. Lore, disguises himself as Data, which only Wesley figures out. Lore, as Data, beats up Worf. Lore tries to feed the crew to the Crystal Entity, and fails, getting transported out into space.

The Crystal Entity decides to leave, heading off. The Crew head off as well.

Meanwhile, Lore remains floating in space, with it not clear if he is actually functional or not....

[Rating]
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on

This is another Hidden Gem Episode

{Episode Commentary}
So, I didn't cover everything that happened fully, but the above is the general gist. This episode is one of the best because it tells us more about Data, his history, and the history of Androids like him. That is always great to explore, because of how interesting it all happens to be.

Lore is of course the star of the episode. Lore is a more pyschotic and dysfunctional android compared to Data. This is due to mistakes made by Dr. Soong when building Lore, which made Lore all crazy. Naturally, that means Lore has problems, like emotional ones. Which is why Data has no emotions, so to speak. Because of Lore.

The entire progression of events, especially relating to Wesley and the Crystal Entity and about Data's/Lore's use of contractions (i'm lost/etc), makes for a mixed element, but not enough to drop the score any.

The Crystal Entity doesn't show up here enough to say much about it, but it makes another appearance in a later episode. The Crystal Entity pretty much doesn't have any interest in talking with the crew. So, it doesn't ever communicate in a way really that helps to understand it. This makes it one of the most alien of the aliens on the show.

I like episodes that explore or tell us things about the crew, especially the alien members, along with episodes that showcase the fun aliens (Klingons, Romulans, Cardies/Cardassians, Bajorans, Ferengi) who actively impact future events.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Hidden Gems: 2
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 2 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

While I haven't seen this one, I have at least heard of it.

Amusingly, the way Lore is identified (using contractions) where Data doesn't is something I usually recall as being how they realise the transmissions supposedly from Data before he "dies" in "The Most Toys" are fake, while the write-ups for it say that they actually realise because "Data" is not following procedures exactly. I may not have seen the episode, but I know enough about it to get it confused with another.

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

Doesnt Data pick up the ability to use contractions later when he downloads his dead daughters brain, or something like that?

----------


## DavidSh

They are very inconsistent about whether Data can or does use contractions, I understand.

----------


## Beleriphon

> There will be a tracker for Miles O'Brien and his ranks, which are a little silly some


Eventually for DS9 there needs be an O'Brien Must Suffer Tracker.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> They are very inconsistent about whether Data can or does use contractions, I understand.


Even in this episode, which establishes Data can't use contractions, he tells Picard "Yes Sir, I'm fine" at the end.

The writers and Brent Spiner are only human, and mistakes are all over the place.

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 13
Angel One
Stardate: 41636.9

[Plot]

The crew have gone to visit a planet or area that had a ship go missing. The ship is called Odin. It had a mixed crew. The planet/area is a female led place. It has been some time since there was contact with the place with the Federation.

Riker leads the away team with Troi going along to speak to the head lady. That doesn't go fairly well. The female leader is complainy, and not happy about the lateness of the visit. Then the female leader says nothing about might have happened to any survivors.

Meanwhile

Picard tells the crew that they need to be getting ready for the departure since they will be going off to investigate or be some involved in Romulans. Apparently Romulan ships have been sighted/seen/buzzing about. [This will not actually mean anything]

Meanwhile

We learn that there are survivors and the leader is named Ramsay. There is some demonstration at some point of the "lego's", a little device and set up for dissolving things that works by putting a hand on a snowglobe/crystal ball.

Meanwhile

Wesley and his friends used some kind of Klingon scent doing a snowball throwing thing, then they or people get sick. This is all cleared up by Dr. Crusher. Also, Picard gets benched for being sick.

Meanwhile

The crew find some survivors. Riker ends up hooking up with the female leader. The survivors aren't starfleet, and so not under that jurisdiction. then the female leader has to sentence them.

The survivors are rounded up, Riker gets involved, some words are exchanged and things happen. The survivors are all fine, the female leader person is fine, and the crew is fine from the sick/virus after Dr. Crusher cures it.

Meanwhile

The Female lead planet apparently employs apartheid or something. That is supposed to be in the background during the parts on the planet.

Meanwhile

The crew ready themselves to go off and visit the Romulans.

[Rating]
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

{Episode Commentary}
To be honest, this episode has a few too moving parts. The planet stuff is interesting some, but not that much. The part on the ship with everything getting sick is not that great. Then the planet stuff about it having apartheid or something or whatever the threat the survivors are supposed to be posing is not care, and doesn't work much.

All in all, it just doesn't really stand out as being memorable. Worf even gets sick too. Things develop to where it is Laforge in charge of the ship. That is interesting a little bit.

The three or two depending on how you look at , plotlines don't really mesh that well. I mean, the episode is just average but slightly drags down a little. There is no clear "oomph" of what the different points mean/matter. Why are the survivors a threat? That was not established enough. Why is the illness/sickness spreading through the ship? What point does it serve in the episode?

So, a mediocre episode to start with that gets drug down a little bit due to issues about just not interesting storylines.

Oh, and that whole bit about the Romulans? That never happens actually. It is all just in this episode, nothing occurs about it again. Which makes it weird for being brought up at all.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Hidden Gems: 2
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 2 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> All in all, it just doesn't really stand out as being memorable. Worf even gets sick too. Things develop to where it is Laforge in charge of the ship. That is interesting a little bit.


Actually, there is precident from TOS - Scotty was given the con on at least one occasion that I can remember offhand (S1 E23 "A Taste of Armageddon" - he acquited himself well both in the episdoe and the novelisation).




> Oh, and that whole bit about the Romulans? That never happens actually. It is all just in this episode, nothing occurs about it again. Which makes it weird for being brought up at all.


I wonder if that was just a flag to say "oh yes, we have the Romulans as well as the Klingons".

According to TVTropes, "Originally, the Race Against the Clock was supposed to be Ferengi ships threatening an outpost. Due to negative reactions to the Ferengi from fans and production personnel alike, this was changed to a Romulan threat instead." - Nobody liked the Ferengi, it seems.

----------


## Peelee

> I wonder if that was just a flag to say "oh yes, we have the Romulans as well as the Klingons".
> 
> According to TVTropes, "Originally, the Race Against the Clock was supposed to be Ferengi ships threatening an outpost. Due to negative reactions to the Ferengi from fans and production personnel alike, this was changed to a Romulan threat instead." - Nobody liked the Ferengi, it seems.


They were way too ridiculous in their debut episode. Came off as more comedic than threatening. Which is great, because them being axed as pure villains gave its both the Borg and Quark in DS9

----------


## Velaryon

I just started re-watching TNG on Netflix, so I'm going to try and catch up so I can participate in the discussion with a fresher memory. In the meantime, here are a few thoughts I had on the first few episodes and the commentary here.

*Spoiler: Encounter at Farpoint*
Show


I actually like this episode quite a bit. Sure, they were figuring a lot of things out in terms of plot and characterization, and it obviously wasn't all there yet, but it did pretty well to introduce most of the characters and I thought it did a great job of showing how Picard & co. handle things differently than Kirk would have.

Random stuff I noticed:
Yar is portrayed as much more emotional and impulsive than I rememberData's quirk of being unable to use contractions must not have been invented yet, since he uses one in the trial scenethe first time we see the transporter used, Riker is actually taller than the beam effect which only reaches to about his shoulders. It's fixed in the following scene when he appears on the EnterpriseRiker comes off much more of a by-the-book and stickler for the rules here than I remember. I'm guessing it was seen as a way to introduce the notion of the Captain not leading away teams and the character just evolved away from that over timeMention is made of Geordi being in constant pain from his VISOR. Does this ever get referenced again?Dr. McCoy seems to have gotten WAY more southern in his old age. I don't remember him ever calling Spock "boy," but he does so to Data several times

Also, I think the holodeck "rules" had not been figured out yet. The way it's described in this episode is that many of the items in the holodeck ARE real, including some of the life. It makes sense since replicator technology is a thing, and simply creating water (for example) would probably be a more efficient use of resources than pretending to create water, tracking every single person and object in the simulation that's supposed to be wet (including people's clothes) and constantly simulating that.



*Spoiler: The Naked Now*
Show


our first instance of Wunderkind Wesley being obnoxiousData uses another contractionThat poor chief engineer lady carried the idiot ball so hard in this episode she probably got thrown off the crew for sheer incompetenceI never realized before that Worf was the only main cast member not to be infected, even if Riker basically just completely no sold his infectionWhy does the assistant chief engineer have a random non-Starfleet uniform on? He looks completely out of placeHaving every single woman in the main cast get super horny when affected by the virus says a lot about the attitudes of Roddenberry or the writers, none of it good

I had forgotten that Geordi is not the chief engineer this early in the show's run. It's odd that they clearly placed so little interest in casting that role early on, given how important Scotty was in TOS. Instead they case someone who was clearly an extra with little to no thought given to characterization.

I think making this the very next episode after the pilot was a mistake, as it makes the show look far too reliant on TOS nostalgia. I didn't hate it overall, but it could have been done a lot better and should probably have been at least a couple episodes later than it was.



*Spoiler: Code of Honor*
Show


Hoo boy, that was... certainly an episode that happened.

I absolutely see why this episode is regarded as racist, though I thought the whole "counting coup" reference was almost as bad as the fact that they cast this whole race as AfricanPicard says some shockingly sexist things while buddying up to Lutan. Like I get he was trying to get Lutan to lower his guard a bit, but holy cow is it weird to see him say such thingsPoor Denise Crosby. Her main complaint was that she felt like she never had anything to do, but here we have a heavily Tasha-focused episode, and it's... this. At least she got to look like a bit of a badass, I guess.First hints of Data and Geordi being friends. That scene was pretty decent at leastWhose brilliant idea was it to call Yar's rival in this episode Yareena? You could name her _anything at all_ and you decide to make it almost the same name? Dumb.

I'm not too bothered about the technical aspects of the conflict setup. What's important here is that the Ligonians had medicine that the Enterprise absolutely _had_ to get because they were unable to make it themselves. If it's not convincing, I blame the technobabble rather than the plot setup. Yes, Picard could simply beam Tasha up, but then they can't get the medicine. I think a bit of exposition about why simply stealing it with the transporter would be unacceptable would've been nice here, but oh well.

With regard to a point that was brought up earlier, Lutan did explicitly state that he'd set things up so that he won either way - if Yareena died then he was supposed to inherit. It's not clear why the law would allow that when their custom was explicitly for women to own the property, but I don't think this even makes the top 10 worst things about this episode list.

----------


## DavidSh

> *Spoiler: Encounter at Farpoint*
> Show
> 
> 
> I actually like this episode quite a bit. Sure, they were figuring a lot of things out in terms of plot and characterization, and it obviously wasn't all there yet, but it did pretty well to introduce most of the characters and I thought it did a great job of showing how Picard & co. handle things differently than Kirk would have.
> 
> Random stuff I noticed:
> Yar is portrayed as much more emotional and impulsive than I rememberData's quirk of being unable to use contractions must not have been invented yet, since he uses one in the trial scenethe first time we see the transporter used, Riker is actually taller than the beam effect which only reaches to about his shoulders. It's fixed in the following scene when he appears on the EnterpriseRiker comes off much more of a by-the-book and stickler for the rules here than I remember. I'm guessing it was seen as a way to introduce the notion of the Captain not leading away teams and the character just evolved away from that over timeMention is made of Geordi being in constant pain from his VISOR. Does this ever get referenced again?Dr. McCoy seems to have gotten WAY more southern in his old age. I don't remember him ever calling Spock "boy," but he does so to Data several times
> 
> Also, I think the holodeck "rules" had not been figured out yet. The way it's described in this episode is that many of the items in the holodeck ARE real, including some of the life. It makes sense since replicator technology is a thing, and simply creating water (for example) would probably be a more efficient use of resources than pretending to create water, tracking every single person and object in the simulation that's supposed to be wet (including people's clothes) and constantly simulating that.


To be fair to McCoy, he was about 100 years older than Data, which should give him some license.  As long as there isn't a history of humans calling androids "boy" regardless of the relative ages.

----------


## russdm

> Actually, there is precident from TOS - Scotty was given the con on at least one occasion that I can remember offhand (S1 E23 "A Taste of Armageddon" - he acquited himself well both in the episdoe and the novelisation).


I think you misunderstand my comment.

I found it an interesting bit, to have La Forge in command, instead of Picard. We get to see how Geordi deals with problems when he doesn't have anybody else to answer to. It is one of the interesting parts of this rather mediocre episode.

Geordi gets a couple more opportunities to run the ship, before he gets kicked into Engineering on a permenant basis. It's nice to see the transition, to see who else gets to run the ship, when Picard is unavailable.

----------


## russdm

> I wonder if that was just a flag to say "oh yes, we have the Romulans as well as the Klingons".
> 
> According to TVTropes, "Originally, the Race Against the Clock was supposed to be Ferengi ships threatening an outpost. Due to negative reactions to the Ferengi from fans and production personnel alike, this was changed to a Romulan threat instead." - Nobody liked the Ferengi, it seems.





> They were way too ridiculous in their debut episode. Came off as more companies than threatening. Which is great, because them being axed as pure villains have its both the Borg and Quark in DS9


I think Peelee about summed it up. The Ferengi had an extremely poor Debut Episode, and you couldn't, as soon as you actually saw them acting on the planet, take them any seriously. Even with the misunderstood, bizarro "Yankee Traders" bit.

I mean, the thunder sounds are enough to get the Ferengi screeching in pain, and there is no sign really that it is anything but standard thunder. I think maybe it could be head-canoned that the thunder was much louder than what would be standard thunder.

Which makes it worse, when we discover that the Ferengi homeplanet apparently is prone to having frequent rain storms and thunder. Heck, when Quark and Rom arrive at home in that Episode when they go home, there is a rainstorm going on in the background, with thunder sounds.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> I think you misunderstand my comment.
> 
> I found it an interesting bit, to have La Forge in command, instead of Picard. We get to see how Geordi deals with problems when he doesn't have anybody else to answer to. It is one of the interesting parts of this rather mediocre episode.
> 
> Geordi gets a couple more opportunities to run the ship, before he gets kicked into Engineering on a permenant basis. It's nice to see the transition, to see who else gets to run the ship, when Picard is unavailable.


By the bye, one of the TOS novels (Doctor's Orders, I think) had McCoy dumped in the hot seat. When he protested, Kirk points out (a) you've been through Command Training, and (b) I can give the con to an Ensign if I think it is appropriate.

----------


## Velaryon

I knew that the Ferengi were originally intended to fill the role that Klingons did for TOS (that of primary recurring antagonists), but after seeing The Last Outpost again, it's hard to imagine how anyone ever thought that was going to work. They are comedic from the very outset. 

As a child I thought their energy whip things were cool, but as an adult it reminds me more of a small, curved pool noodle than anything else.

I really thought it was weird and jarring though in the episode how quickly Portal pivoted from "No, ages haven't passed and my empire still lives on" to "Hey, you're okay! Tell me more about Sun Tzu!"

----------


## russdm

> As a child I thought their energy whip things were cool, but as an adult it reminds me more of a small, curved pool noodle than anything else.
> 
> I really thought it was weird and jarring though in the episode how quickly Portal pivoted from "No, ages haven't passed and my empire still lives on" to "Hey, you're okay! Tell me more about Sun Tzu!"


Yeah the energy whip things do look like pool noodles. I don't recall right now that it was where they got the props for the whip things from, a collection of pool noodles. Memory alpha wiki page for the episode should be able to tell.

The stuff about Portal and Sun Tzu is because Portal scanned the Enterprise and what is in the computers and everything and downloaded and processed it.

Did you miss how Portal refers to and addresses Riker by calling him Riker. And when Portal does the challenge, Portal directly quotes from Sun Tzu?

----------


## Velaryon

I did catch that part (it's the only reason to have Riker quote Sun Tzu earlier in the episode, after all). But Portal knew that already before the away team ever came to the planet, and he still turned from judging them to best buds with Riker on a dime.

----------


## russdm

Yeah I think that it is to show how incompetent and terrible the ferengi are supposed to be

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 14
11001001
Stardate: 41365.9

[Plot]
So the Enterprise goes to Starbase 74 for getting a clean or an upgrade, or something. The starbase looks like the one in Star Trek 3, because that is where the footage is from. The Enterprise docks, we meet the guy in charge of what is going to happen. Who also mentions how he worked on building the ship.

There are also some aliens called Bynars there. They talk in funky ways, finish each other's sentences and interact in a way suggesting a computer relation.

The work on the ship starts going. Wesley asks about what is happening, Riker goes wandering. He meets Yar and Worf going off to play some games. Riker ends up wandering down to the holodeck, and ends up hanging out there.

Then through a set of events, the ship is apparently going to explode. It takes off, after having the crew / people on board evacuated. Then, with Riker still in the holodeck, Picard ends up finding him.

There is a mention of whether Data could paint or learn to paint. In the holodeck later, Riker creates a jazz club and  does some playing with a trombone. He meets a hologram lady that he gets smitten by.

The hologram lady is called Minuet, and she is pretty advanced. She can react and adjust her parts/programming as need be when events happen (An early version of what the Doctor on Voyager and Vic from Deep Space 9 would end up being like)

Due to events, the Bynars steal the ship and take it off home. Along the way, both Riker and Picard get out of the holodeck, causing trouble. Then they get the ship to go for self-destruct, do a few things, and then a couple of events happen (They use the self-destruct, the bynars have kind of mental seizure and collapse, Riker and Picard retake the ship and turn off the self-destruct)

Riker loses Minuet, the hologram lady, in the course of events.

[Rating]
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

{Episode Commentary}
To be honest, this episode could have been just mediocre, but it falls down. That is due to the stealing the ship plot. There is little improvement with this. The rest of the episode, or whole episode could have just been about meeting the Bynars and how they can do so amazing holograms. That would have worked out for the episode, since  we have seen other holograms in the episode with Picard playing as Private Detective Dixon Hill. It would have been a nice little follow up and we could have seen some interesting things. See the possibilities.

The other problem, is that the Bynars consider that Starfleet might have said "No" if asked for help. That is not likely to ever happen, with Starfleet being the way they are. It is something I would expected the Bynars to know about. For making their plans, that is a variable I feel that they should have considered.

So, the episode is a 3, but slips down to a 2. 

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Hidden Gems: 2
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 2 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

I think I remember this one. The Bynars needed the ship to save their home planet or something, didnt they?

But yeah they could have asked first, and _then_ stolen the ship _if_ Starfleet did say no for some reason. It would have saved them effort in the (agreed, likely) case of a yes, and in the case of a no, theyre no worse off then they were without asking.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

Hey - this is one I've actually seen!

I'd have given it a three - the plot was OK, and there wasn't wasn't any amazing revelations, but I don't recall anything I would particularly mark down for.




> The other problem, is that the Bynars consider that Starfleet might have said "No" if asked for help. That is not likely to ever happen, with Starfleet being the way they are. It is something I would expected the Bynars to know about. For making their plans, that is a variable I feel that they should have considered.


The way I saw it was that, despite their complex and multifaceted products, ultimately the Binars were incapable of seeing anything as any other than ultimate yes or no. They had a plan that the Federation might agree to or reject. They couldn't see that there were other possible solutions that the Federation might have, or that they might be able to get part of what they want and wing the rest of it. It was their way or the highway, as it were.

And because they could only see those two options, they had no choice to deceive the Federation, otherwise their plan might not happen.

It was an attempt to show a race that thinks in a fundamentally different way. And that is a very hard thing to do.

----------


## russdm

> Hey - this is one I've actually seen!
> 
> I'd have given it a three - the plot was OK, and there wasn't wasn't any amazing revelations, but I don't recall anything I would particularly mark down for.
> 
> It was an attempt to show a race that thinks in a fundamentally different way. And that is a very hard thing to do.


Yeah I would have given it a 3 as well but:

I feel like the Bynars would have provided for an interesting story about exploring how they work and how they are able to make such an amazing hologram lady, Minuet. That would have been good for the episode. For discovering new civilizations and interacting with them.

We got:

Little exploration of the Bynars and about the hologram lady. 

The Grand Theft Starship, in which the Bynars proceeded to steal the Enterprise. Which they were to take to their homeworld and fix a computer problem for them

Riker and Picard playing Rambo and Die Hard. They have to take the ship back, like nothing else can happen until they succeed in that, then they can worry about whatever.

Really:

Once Picard and Riker learned why the Bynars needed the ship, they would stop and pause and find some way to work with the Bynars and accomplish a goal.

I think that Minuet, the hologram lady told them about what or at least, some of why the Bynars stole the ship.

An exploration of a new race would have been interesting to see. So I was not as impressed with including the theft.

I know that the show needs drama but somehow the part and plot of the Enterprise theft feels out of place. Like it just doesn't have a connection with the rest of the episode.

Maybe I am affected from the other instances of somebody trying to steal the enterprise. Which happens in a few more episodes of this show and other ones. Enterprise theft or the attempt.

That may be really it, what is making me give a lower rating.

There is a latet episode with a follow up that makes the earlier episode, and the follow up episode,  bad in one of its plotlines

----------


## russdm

> They had a plan that the Federation might agree to or reject. They couldn't see that there were other possible solutions that the Federation might have, or that they might be able to get part of what they want and wing the rest of it. It was their way or the highway, as it were.
> 
> And because they could only see those two options, they had no choice to deceive the Federation, otherwise their plan might not happen.


I think that is another problem I have with the episode. I have thought that it has been established before and will be after, that Starfleet and the Federation have such a friendly and caring attitude that they will do all sorts of things without thought if it would help some people out.

I mean that Starfleet is totally willing to give some replicators to the Cardassians and they agreed to not make any cloaking devices and they agreed to help out the Klingons with their environmental problems and they did to such extent that it appears that those Klingon environmental problems are not seen in the episode that we visit the Klingon homeworld.

There were times when Starfleet didn't have to help out but they did anyway. The times that Kirk broke some computers. How the incident with the tribbles ended, how the events with Kang, the thungs with Kruge.

Starfleet and the Federation could have pushed hard at the Klingons for what they have done before. Starfleet and the Federation could have pushed hard at the Romulans for what they did.

So, I don't have an impression of a Starfleet and the Federation that would say no to a request for help or assistance and that it would have been known about somehow for the Bynars.


That is what I felt myself.

I did want to give the episode a rating of 3 but it felt through it and at the end, that it had somehow dropped slightly down a bit in grade.

And I know that there ends up being no follow up with the Bynars and what they needed. So we never find out what happens with it and the events.

----------


## The Glyphstone

The race with high aptitude towards computers and a tendency to see all situations as binary options is named...Bynars. If these writers had been working on TOS, Worf would be an Honoroid and Spock would be a Logican.

----------


## russdm

> The race with high aptitude towards computers and a tendency to see all situations as binary options is named...By*n*ars. If these writers had been working on TOS, Worf would be an Honoroid and Spock would be a Logican.


Corrected you there.

They do have computers on them, and they are also partly computers. Basically two people linked together in a way. And they speak in computer sounds too.

Bynars/Bynar -- Binary

It does make sense

----------


## The Glyphstone

Typo, yeah. But thats sort of what I'm saying, its taking the Planet/Race of Hats that Trek is already known for up to a new level by even having their name conveniently match their Hat. I just find it uncreative.

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 15
Too Short a Season
Stardate: 41309.5

[Plot]
So the crew goes to consult with an admiral after receiving a message from the leader of a planet that has reported some hostages having been taken. the admiral will be going with them to deal with the situation.

as it turns out the admiral has taken some special de-aging substance that makes him get younger. it, the substance, also gives him pain.

the Enterprise heads off to Mordan. No, not Mr. Mordan, but a planet called that. it had been in a civil war for 40 years. the leader of Mordan is named Karnas. the admiral is named Mark Jameson.

Jameson keeps getting younger and he wants to go in forcefully. we learn that Karnas is holding the hostages. Picard learns that Jameson traded weapons for the hostages when Jameson was a captain. then Jameson gave the enemies of Karnas the same weapons.

this ended badly in that while Jameson hoped for a short war, it caused a civil war that lasted for 40 years and that Karnas wants revenge.

the storming the base to rescue the hostages fails. the admiral and Karnas meet again and Karnas gets his revenge as the admiral dies thanks to the substance. Karnas has the admiral buried on planet. Karnas releases the hostages.

Riker and Picard do a talk like how Kirk and Spock would do.

[Rating]
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.

{Episode Commentary}
First, to get it out of the way, the stuff to show the admiral being different ages until looking like the actual actor are terrible. very bad makeup.

the plot is good over how a solution of arming both sides equally in a way similar way that Kirk did but for different reasons, can turn out rather badly. the need to atone is something that the admiral feels. that part or plot works.

the part with the de-aging substance is mixed, the episode struggles with it.

the background events for this episode is {scrubbed} so there is that. i think that a few episodes have a real world event triggering them.

again, the makeup for the de-aging admiral is terrible 

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Hidden Gems: 2
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 2 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1

----------


## Peelee

> The other problem, is that the Bynars consider that Starfleet might have said "No" if asked for help. That is not likely to ever happen, with Starfleet being the way they are.


Federation may totally have said no, circumstances depending. I don't mind that aspect. Sure, they were likely to say yes from all indications we can see, but if the prime directive means letting a sapient people die out for whatever reason, Federation will sit by and watch them die. Can't fault a people not in the Federation for not knowing the intricacies of Federation policy.

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 16/17
When The Bough Breaks
Stardate: 41509.1

[Plot]
So the crew arrive at the planet of Aldea. Events happen, the kids or some kids get kidnapped. The crew get the kids back. Wesley learns about the planet and how everyone on the planet is sterile or like it apparently. Then the crew fix the problem of that. The planet's inhabitants don't know how to work the technology they have anymore.

Everything ends well, Captain Picard ends up with a tribble toy stuck to him.

[Rating]
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

{Episode Commentary}
Yeah, this is a stinker.

The plot of missing kids really doesn't ever pay off, because frankly, we have not seen them really anywhere before. The kid that the ship seems to have by this point is Wesley, with a brief appearances maybe in a couple of episodes of so family presence. Really, this whole point of families being on board, should have been the feature of several previous episodes. That would have helped here for the plot.

Because this is about the first time that the issue of kids and family seems to have come up in the show, the entire plot just falls sideways. The whole kid kidnapping and the upset parents, just don't ever work. We never saw them before, and given how "monster of the week" TNG is already, I pretty much know that  things will turn out well anyway. That just about strips all of the value and tension from this episode. The parts not massively damaged due to having never seen any of the families in the episode before.

The planet of Aldea is interesting up to a point, but then the inhabitants have pretty much forgotten everything about their own technology and such. That would have worked with a different secondary premise, cutting all of the kid parts and getting another plot element. Maybe the inhabitants of Aldea request assistance from problems that they just don't know how to handle, and then follow up with some Wesley exploring as he did, and include that bit and trail. Then, I think the episode would have worked out better.

A Deep Space 9 episode featured a plot of people going missing and troubles. it was the one with the holographic village, and it  did a much better way of making you care about everything in my opinion. That just wasn't the case here. The DS9 episode built the characters involved in the problem and Dax & Odo 's experiences with them, so when things happened badly, and when things were fixed, there was strong emotional involvement there. This episode just couldn't get that to work.

The lack of build up, of families, really hurt this episode. It made it not that interesting and I found that, I didn't care at all.

It was funny though that apparently kids need to learn Calculas (sp?) since, supposedly like all mathmatics beyond a basic level is going to be used in every day life. Sure.....

The two plots that were meshed together here, just don't work. Terrible episode.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Hidden Gems: 2
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 2 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Season 1 Episode 16/17]
> It was funny though that apparently kids need to learn Calculas (sp?) since, supposedly like all mathmatics beyond a basic level is going to be used in every day life. Sure.....


To be fair, if you live on an actual spaceship* the likelihood of complex mathematics becoming relevant to your daily life shoots up dramatically.


* Especially one named Enterprise where weird nonsense is guaranteed to occur every wednesday at 6PM.

----------


## DavidSh

And you have to start early, if you want to be able to learn Warp Physics in high school.

----------


## Peelee

> And you have to start early, if you want to be able to learn Warp Physics in high school.


That's what I was about to say. Calculus used to be advanced mathematics. Now it's a high school subject, because the current advanced math and chemistry needs that as a very basic foundation. By the time you get to the level of technology and science in TNG, gotta start moving to calculus as soon as possible to get it out of the way for the rest of the stuff they'll need to know by high school (or equivalent).

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 17
Home Soil
Stardate: 41463.9

[Plot]
The crew arrive at a planet to check up on the terraforming in progress. There have been setbacks. As it turns out, the terraforming people are lying and Troi demonstrates her talents.

The progress has slowed down due to issues. There are some. Then we learn about there is some inorganic crystal like life forms that have some issues with the planet getting terraformed. So they take steps to stop or hinder the terraforming. A laser beam kills someone. then other issues. Then Data talks with the inorganic life forms. Who are some what sorry over killing that person.

The crew work to help out the crystal like life forms and it becomes some big crystal. The crew is able to help out.

After the events, Picard marks the planet as being in quaratine and not to be visited. Picard is also hopeful about not doing another thing like this again.

[Rating]
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

{Episode Commentary}
To be honest, I had wanted to give this a higher rating, but based on reading parts about the episode on tvtropes, it is clear that the plot is a bit old. Despite that, it works.

The episode deals with discovering that something already lives at a place where some terraforming was going to happen. That is not exactly a newish thing anymore, in the 1960s it may have been. So, this is the last of the TOS style of scripts for use. So, this episode works as an episode of Star Trek, but nothing pushes it up, to either a 4, or being a Hidden Gem. So, it is where it is.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Hidden Gems: 2
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 2 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1

{{Addendum}}

So, we are 9 episodes from finishing out the Season. I think that I will be making a Season Recap, a commentary on the season and how it did. Also, we have reached the point that Roddenberry is starting to take his first steps of considering/lessening influence on the show too.

Also, coming up, is the episode that is a two-parter of probably among the worst of TNG episodes with the next episode having part one of that two parts/episodes. You should be easily able to figure out what I am referring to here.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

Another one I've not seen, but the moment I way "crystals" I was thinking of "The Devil in the Dark", although that was based on mining rather than terraforming, and a form of co-existance was brokered in the end. Also it gave rise to one of my favourite novel characters, Lt Naraht.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Manga Shoggoth*
> _Also it gave rise to one of my favourite novel characters, Lt Naraht._


I'm glad someone else remembers this guy.  Diane Duane was one of the better TOS novelists back in the day.

----------


## The Glyphstone

The Romulan Trilogy is still canon as far as I'm concerned. Along with _How Much For Just The Planet?_

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 18
Coming of Age
Stardate: 41461.2

[Plot]
So the crew goes to have Wesley do some testing for getting into Starfleet Academy. Then a few guys show up to visit to critique how Captain Picard is doing, or so.

[Rating]
Wesley and his parts of the Episode --
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on

The Inspections/Critique of Captain Picard of the Episode -- Stand Alone --
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

The Inspections/Critique of Captain Picard of the Episode -- With the follow up episode in consideration --
Barely reaches up to -- 1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)

{Episode Commentary}
So this Episode gets a few ratings for it because it contains separate parts and one of those parts has a follow up episode with it.

All of the episode that relates to Wesley is very interesting and very good. Seeing Wesley explore parts of himself and his fears makes for some compelling watching. This could have been the episode itself alone. I really really liked it and was annoyed when the episode switched away. This episode is really Wesley at his most non-annoying and most personable and likable. Some staggeringly good acting on Wil Wheaton's part here.

The other part...

Is mediocre. The critique of Captain Picard is not really that interesting and it is just a follow up of the different events that happened before this episode. Some of the previous episodes have their plots mentioned some. The overall feel is just meh, it doesn't really seem like much. Not bad but not great. Overall, just a middle of the road performance.

The other part, thanks to the follow up episode...

The stuff about how there are weird things that worry Admiral Quinn probably would have worked, but knowing what the follow up episode for it is (Conspiracy), I honestly wish this episode's part was just erased. That it got completely axed. The follow up episode for this was so staggeringly bad that I want to burn out my memory.

Had there been a different subject for the Conspiracy, then I think that this episode's parts could have stayed as being what it was. But what was gotten just retroactively ruins the parts here. It is just such a bad idea of a plot and so terribly done, that it just brings down this episode as well.

That Follow UP Episode...

Conspiracy is the follow up to this episode's parts with Remmick and Quinn, and given that episode (Conspiracy) falls next to Code of Honor and the Janeway - Paris as Salamander Episodes and all of the other utterly horrible episodes of Star Trek, I just don't see how They (the cast and crew) could have thought what got made should have ever been aired at all. Conspiracy is almost entirely made of Narm and Stupid, then graduates to Narmy Stupid and Stupid Stupid. Bad all around.

Of course, we will get to that episode, and I will be proceeding to chew that episode out for what a piece of royally impressive garbage that it happens to be.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Hidden Gems: 2
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 2 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1

----------


## Velaryon

> Season 1 Episode 16/17
> When The Bough Breaks
> Stardate: 41509.1


I agree this was not a very good episode. I put it down to two main factors:
1. Other than Wesley, we have never seen any of the other kids before nor will again, so it's hard for the audience to care about these characters specifically.
2. This came way too close on the heels of another episode about people trying to steal from the Enterprise instead of just asking for help that would have been freely given (the last being "11001001").

There's also a lot of poor acting going on here. The kids say they miss home but there's no whining, no crying, no tantrums, and no acting out whatsoever. Other than one brief moment where the one woman refuses to give up the little girl to the family she was assigned to, nobody acts particularly emotional about the Enterprise taking back its children even though these people believe that will mean the end of their civilization.

In general I think season 1 is better than its reputation, but this episode is impossible to defend.

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 19
Heart of Glory
Stardate: 41503.7

[Plot]
the ship goes and rescues some klingons. we get to see how la forge sees. it is really cool. then the klingons are rescued and brought to the ship. One dies and we get the klingon death ritual. Picard doesn't buy the story that the Klingons tell him. He doesn't have proof though. He leaves them with Worf.

Picard consults with the Klingons/starfleet, and also has a klingon ship nearby sort of. Picard hails them and speaks to them about the klingons. He learns they are radicals/renegedes.

We learn about how Worf ended up in the Federation and in starfleet. Also about the relations between Klingons and Romulans some. The Klingons try to appeal to Worf, to convince him to join them. They fail. They also attempt to escape and one klingon dies.

The last klingon takes the ship's warp drive hostage, as it were, and speaks to Worf. Worf then kills that klingon.

The klingon on the approaching ship speaks to Worf and offer him a space on his ship. Worf accepts to be polite as he tells the others.

[Rating]
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on

{Episode Commentary}
I love Klingons, whenever they appear, and this is our real first appearance of them in the show. Not only are the Klingons pretty awesome whenever, but this episode begins the process of moving them from their pseudo Soviet Union portrayal to that of the Viking/Samurai style they would have. All in all, it helps establish the Empire and what it is dealing with.

Peace between the Klingons and Federation, is not exactly working here. It contrasts heavily with much ideals, and Klingons remain one of a handful of races that Picard cannot do his speech to but he does earn their respect.

Klingons are pretty awesome. They have a great look from TOS and here in TNG, they have really nice looking uniforms and stuff. They just look like Warriors, like they could totally beat up people and look cool while doing so. They have a style that the Federation/Starfleet just simply lacks. They just look cool.

The Klingon ships also look pretty cool anyway. They contain a sense of alien look and feel to them, while also including a strong predatory kind of "This is a warship" vibe. The Feddies don't have that for any of their ships except for the Defiant, Sisko's ship.

This episode also highlights an issue with the Federation: They have been at peace for way too [email protected]## long. Conflict,  between yourself and others, is one of the best ways to test and show your determination. You must be challenged.

Kahless had it right, "Fight to enrich the spirit". Life is conflict, and the Klingons get this. They don't allow themselves comfort and what we see of their ships doesn't have the "Hotel" in space feel from the Enterprise D. The Klingons are a warrior people, who go about fighting. They may hold to very different ideals, but they completely challenge how perfect our humans actually are.

Klingons are awesome. They get amazing weapons, amazing songs, amazing cultural details and myths. Our Feddies  ?humans get very little that makes them interesting. They come across as really dull. just dull.

Ah, Klingons. How awesome you are.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Hidden Gems: 2
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 2 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A few in this episode
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1

----------


## Gnoman

The funny thing is that later episodes establish that the war between the Federation and the Cardassians is going on around this time.

----------


## russdm

The fact that the Federation is at war with the Cardassians is not Canon at this point. Also, apparently the war was never important enough that it affected the Federation in any real way.

Think of it as being weird affects of Canon Retcons. Maybe fighting the Cardassians is what Miles is doing since He has been missing from the ship some.

Season 1 Episode 20
The Arsenal of Freedom
Stardate: 41798.2

[Plot]
The crew go off to investigate the disappearance of a ship. They go to a planet where they are contacted by the Harkonnens who offer to preen about been the best weapon makers in the galaxy. The Preening Harkonnen is just an automated recording. Picard sends down an away, they discover a ruined planet.

Through a series of events, the crew learns that the inhabitants of the planet, Minos, built an AI weapon that promptly and apparently destroyed them. It was a highly effective weapon. One version of the Weapon attacks the away team, while another attacks the Enterprise. Meanwhile, for reasons..., Picard and Dr Crusher fall in a hole.

La Forge has command of the Enterprise and fights the space weapon, separating the Enterprise apart while doing so. He destroys the space weapon after Picard has purchased the Weapon System.

The Federation, or Picard, now owns a Weapon System, which will promptly never show up again.

[Rating]
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

{Episode Commentary}
Okay, It is not the actual Harkonnens, but the Peddler is played by the guy that plays the Harkonnen Mentat for the Emperor, Battle for Dune game. Also, Michael Dorn appears in that game as well, playing the Atreides Duke. Of course, it does feel like the sort of thing that the Harkonnens would do; make a weapon system that couldn't be controlled in any way.

Basically, this Episode is about the dangers of making Automatic weapon systems, and how unsafe that could be. Babylon 5 does a similar episode, about a weapon that used Genetic Purity for its take on who to kill, but as it turned out, that genetic purity amount didn't work for anybody of the race/species, so the weapon proceeded to kill everyone.

With that said, the Weapon introduced in this episode would have been quite helpful for use with the Borg and with the Dominion and with other events that happened. So, it is a little bit said to see no future appearance of it anywhere.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Hidden Gems: 2
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 1
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 2 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1

----------


## Velaryon

I actually really like this episode. It's one of if not my favorite from season 1. 

My personal headcanon is that the demonstration system was designed to hand customers off to an actual living salesman once they've agreed to buy, and then the system simply shuts down. Therefore no delivery was actually made, and the Enterprise never actually acquires the Minoan weapon system. Plus at the end I believe they quarantine the planet so that nobody else comes along and accidentally triggers the demonstration. 

The intended message is obviously that the weapons are too dangerous to use because they escape the control of their masters and kill everyone, thus the Enterprise does the only thing it _could_ do by promising to buy and then running away. But I do wish there had been a bit more continuity allowed in this series, and that we had seen the Enterprise or someone else from the Federation study the weapon systems on Minos and take a few of their innovations.

I also wonder how the automated drone systems on Minos would fare against the Borg. Which adaptive technology would prove the superior?

----------


## Gnoman

This episode is pretty much a direct rehash of the TOS episode _The Doomsday Machine_, with some elements of _Shore Leave_ mixed in. The biggest change from the earlier episode is the shift from a Cold War fear of Mutual Assured Destruction to a more time-appropriate fear of unscrupulous weapons traders - a take that is oddly prophetic considering the later course of history.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

I think it's fair to say this was an OK episode, but not really mich more than that.

As to the weapon being any use against the Borg, well I doubt it. The Borg are masters of adaptation and simulation and have the accumulated knowledge of an unknowk number of cultures at their fingertips. The system might well put up a good fight, but it would eventually lose.

Failing that, I suspect the Borg would be able to do the equivalent of a Zerg Rush in retalliation, which the Enterprise really couldn't.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *Manga Shoggoth*
> _As to the weapon being any use against the Borg, well I doubt it. The Borg are masters of adaptation and simulation and have the accumulated knowledge of an unknowk number of cultures at their fingertips. The system might well put up a good fight, but it would eventually lose._


Very much agreed, and its almost certain the Borg have come up against this sort of thing before.  

We know from First Contact that the Borg have assimilated thousands of species, so thats thousands of entire cultures and their associated technologies.  At this point, the Borg are able to bring the resources of a large portion of the galaxy to bear on each new conquest, so it should be comparatively easy for them to deal with a clever but easily duped automated weapons system.

As an aside, I know TNG was constrained in terms of budget, but I always wanted to see nonhumanoid Borg, since there should be plenty of nonhumanoid species out there in the galaxy.  A giant cybernetic mantis shrimp would make for some serious nightmare fuel.

Since we dont see that sort of thing, its worth asking whether theres a plausible in-universe reason why the Borg seem to selectively assimilate only humanoid species.  Since the original Borg were apparently humanoid themselves, are they simply better-adapted to efficiently assimilating other humanoids?  

Or, since they consider themselves well on the way to perfection, do they judge nonhumanoid species as inherently inferior and undeserving of inclusion in the Collective, and simply annihilate them rather than assimilating them?

----------


## Velaryon

Well, the overwhelming majority of alien species we've seen in Star Trek are humanoid in at least shape, so it's not like they're skipping over a whole swath of differently-shaped aliens as far as we know. For every Horta, there's at least a dozen species that are basically humans with something on their forehead or nose. And that's not even getting into non-corporeal beings like the Q.

----------


## DavidSh

Of course, more not-so-humanoid aliens showed up on the Animated Series, including a three-legged helmsman.

----------


## Peelee

> Of course, more not-so-humanoid aliens showed up on the Animated Series, including a three-legged helmsman.


The luxury of significantly cheaper effects. Also, the animated series is better than I ever expected it would be.

----------


## russdm

Alrighty, we are back on our viewing schedule. Let's finish our first season rewatch, as we are almost done with the first season of TNG

Season 1 Episode 21
Symbiosis
Stardate: Unknown

[Plot]
The crew go to visit a star that has weird effects going on. The star has higher magnetic stuff. The crew detect a distress call. They rescue the crew people.

It's Kirk's Son and Khan's right hand friend. (Not really, but the two actors playing some people are played by the actors playing those characters in the Wrath of Khan movie. Khan's right hand friend also shows up as a Romulan in the episode where the Doctor is sent to the Alpha Quadrant using the Hirogen Black Hole Communications systems network)

One side of the people want some drugs made by the other side. In the end, Picard gives them the drugs, but won't help fix the ships that remain on planet.

[Rating]
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

{Episode Commentary}
This episode is pretty much just meh. It doesn't really hook with you, and the plot about drugs has been done before, elsewhere. The only really interesting part aside from a suggestion that Yar might have been a drug user is that both peoples can generate electricity, from their hands. So if Roy Greenhilt needed somebody that could produce lightning, he could call on one of them.

Learning that Yar had a drug thing, is actually interesting, but sadly by this point the writers have basically failed the  cast. This is Yar's last episode before she quietly leaves our group.

We learn about why the Federation has its Prime Directive, which is nice, even though the Prime Directive ends up getting used to justify pretty much abandoning worlds to die, and what have you.

3 episodes to go before we get to "One of the Worst Episodes of Star Trek Ever Made", in my oh so humble opinion (Conspiracy)

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Hidden Gems: 2
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 1
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 2 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

Ah, an episode I've seen and can remember. A rarity for the early seasons...

I was a little disappointed by this - I see no reason why they can't simply tell them that the drugs are just addictive placebos (yes, I know that's not quite the right word).

But they weren't abandoning anyone to die here - all that would have happened would be that they ran out of the drug, went through withdrawal and then realised that the drug did nothing useful. Reparing the ship would have prevented that.

A reasonable episode, but not one that reaches for greatness.

----------


## Velaryon

I think you got this one about right. It was an okay episode but not a great one. Simple moralizing in the Star Trek tradition, with a side dish of "the Prime Directive isn't perfect, but events contrive themselves to allow us to do something anyway, therefore the Prime Directive is good."

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 22
Skin of Evil
Stardate: 41601.3

[Plot]

The crew go to meet a shuttle that was carrying Troi back from some place. The shuttle had crashed on a planet with an oil slick. Who happens to be intelligent, and named Armus

Armus is made up of the aspects of a group/race that cast off all of their bad stuff. That basically congealed into Armus. The crew must deal with Armus, who is essentially a bully.

Armus kills Tasha. Then Armus grabs Riker and covers him in goo, then Armus lets Riker go. Armus visits Troi to chat with her in the shuttle. That happens a few times.

Armus is looking to be entertained or amused, rather than deal with Armus and existence. Picard figures out Armus and speechifies Armus to ineffectiveness. Then the crew gets rescued, the shuttle gets destroyed, and The ship leaves.

The crew have a memorial for Tasha. Data has a learning moment.

[Rating]
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.
But goes to
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

{Episode Commentary}
This episode kills off Tasha. It happens as Gene wanted, a senseless thing. That is, well, all things considering, it doesn't work because we have not been doing the bonding with the different characters enough at this point to make her death have meaning. I mean, if we had gotten a whole season then another one with her death, with some characterization happening, then her death would have had an impact. It just doesn't.

Armus looks terrible in terms of effects but works pretty well as a character. In fact, just interacting with Armus alone would have worked as an episode. Including a cast death, which is the only one that happens in the entire series mind, is a bit much. Armus just works, the main times that Armus is busy being the oil slick, not when Armus has taken the humanoid shape, which just looks like somebody took a bodysuit similar to Darth Vader's costume and poured a bunch of black goop/goo all over it. It just looks staggeringly bad.

It is important to point out here, that we have lost our first and only member of the main cast. The series will have a few episodes that will tease the idea of deaths happening, but that never occurs. Even worse, the death of Tasha apparently wasn't a good send off, so we end up getting Tasha appearing in Yesterday's Enterprise and her being captured by Romulans, to produce Sela. We can thank Gene for that little bit of stuff. Not exactly one of Gene's shining moments. (The Sela bit, and Yesterday's Enterprise bit is different attempt at closure, but I think that is falls under one's own judgement if Tasha becoming the consort/concubine of a Romulan General and dying trying to escape is a really form of closure)

At this point in the series, we are almost done with the first season. We have slightly way too many cast members, and so naturally Tasha gets the axe. The writers couldn't give everyone enough character moments, and so the actress playing Tasha made the decision to walk. It ends up being a problem for the later seasons, but not to the degree of Voyager with Chuckles (Indian Guy), and the others in that series.

To be honest, they (the writers) could have done a better job with the characters, but they just didn't. We have gotten a few moments of character for the different characters, but there is not much to get. The ones that have gotten that are of course, Worf and Data. Because both of them are not Gene's boring future human people. It is really hard to make drama and character moments happen with Gene's boring future human people. Who because of how Gene made them, come across as really preachy and racist. That was not Gene's intent, but it shows up heavily in episodes.

Two episodes to go to one of the worst episodes of the Star Trek franchise

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Hidden Gems: 2
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 1
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 3 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 1 (He has one at the memorial for Tasha)
*Troi Troubles: 1 (Troi heavily uses her empathy here on Armus)
*Money Matters: 1 (The crew have a betting pool, and Worf is betting on Tasha)

----------


## KillianHawkeye

To be fair, a lot of 80s/90s sci-fi shows took a couple seasons to figure themselves out, and Star Trek TNG in particular got a lot more focused after Gene Roddenberry stopped being in charge of things. But yeah, there are some egregious episodes of TNG, especially in the first season.

And while no other main cast member was killed off the way Tasha was, it was still fairly groundbreaking for a main character to die at all on a TV series like this back in those days. The fact that it happened at all inherently puts TNG on a higher level of potential character drama than other shows that don't kill off any of their main characters (even if it didn't end up paying off in the long run).

----------


## russdm

> The fact that it happened at all inherently puts TNG on a higher level of potential character drama than other shows that don't kill off any of their main characters (even if it didn't end up paying off in the long run).


I would put this under "Things the series never followed up on". TNG teases us with moments looking like other cast members could die, but it never happens, and it gets only moderate close to look like happening.

Shame about all that possible drama

----------


## Velaryon

I actually thought Skin of Evil was a really poor episode. It feels hastily thrown together as a way to write out Tasha. I didn't find Armus at all compelling as a character or a concept, and he has aged extremely poorly in terms of special effects. Both the oil slick version and the goopy-person version look really bad to me. To me this is one of the worst episodes of the first season.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> And while no other main cast member was killed off the way Tasha was, it was still fairly groundbreaking for a main character to die at all on a TV series like this back in those days. The fact that it happened at all inherently puts TNG on a higher level of potential character drama than other shows that don't kill off any of their main characters (even if it didn't end up paying off in the long run).



That's because the writers got a kick up the ass when one of the regular cast quit.

That's why Tasha was killed off, because Denise Crosby thought the show was going nowhere and bailed. That was the "oh ****" moment for the writers that made them reassess how they were approaching writing for the series.

----------


## russdm

> I didn't find Armus at all compelling as a character or a concept, and he has aged extremely poorly in terms of special effects. Both the oil slick version and the goopy-person version look really bad to me. To me this is one of the worst episodes of the first season.


Well, Armus does work as a character in idea, but in execution is pretty terrible. The effects were terrible when the episode was filmed and it has not changed.

Then there is the fact that this episode is one of the few times that Troi uses her empathy and being a betazoid before the writers completely just forget about that. A few later episodes have her use her empathy.

I would challenge on it being the worst episode as we have two episodes to go for the worst episode of the first season

----------


## The Glyphstone

The Tracker Tracker is up to 16 trackers - at this rate of growth we'll have more trackers than we do watched episodes.

----------


## Velaryon

> Well, Armus does work as a character in idea, but in execution is pretty terrible. The effects were terrible when the episode was filmed and it has not changed.
> 
> Then there is the fact that this episode is one of the few times that Troi uses her empathy and being a betazoid before the writers completely just forget about that. A few later episodes have her use her empathy.
> 
> I would challenge on it being the worst episode as we have two episodes to go for the worst episode of the first season


Armus is just a Mr. Hyde in space without Dr. Jekyll. Since we never see the "good" aliens that cast him off, he's kinda meaningless. I guess he does give Troi a chance to get her Betazoid on, but he's still not at all compelling to me. 

I did say "one of" the worst, not _the_ worst. I would place it in the bottom 5 for this season easily though.

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 23
We'll always have Paris
Stardate: 41697.9

[Plot]
the crew are traveling twhen they experience a time moment. they go to investigate and discover that picard has an old flame who is married to a guy that is experimenting with time. Managed to end linking to another dimension and caused trouble. so the crew work on fixing the problem which is solved by Data using some antimatter. the guy and picard's old flame return to their place

[Rating]
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

{Episode Commentary}
basically a nice star trek episode. we learn some about picard and we see some of what Data can do. the time related things are interesting but nothing special. everything works out fine in the end.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Hidden Gems: 2
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 1
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 3 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 1 
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1 (Data uses antimatter to fix what went wrong)

----------


## russdm

Season 1 Episode 24
Conspiracy
Stardate: 41775.5

[Plot]
the crew head to Pacifica, when Picard hears from a friend about weirdness. and that there is something going on. Starfleet Command has taken over by Neural Parasites. the crew fix the problem. 

Thanks to Tvtropes and Memory Alpha))

The crew head to Pacifica, when picards hears from a friend about weirdness and that he needs picard to go to a place and have a chat.

Once arriving at the place, Picard meets some other captains and has to prove that he is himself. Apparently according to Picard's old friend, people involved in the thing that he is worried about can't remember anything long term (one of the captains is a member of that group that Picard's friend is worried about)

Picard leaves with his ship and then his friend's ship gets blown up. Picard goes to earth to investigate.

Thanks TVTropes:

The Enterprise is on its way to Pacifica, a water world for that much-needed R&R they mentioned last episode.

However, a priority call to Picard interrupts the mission, as it's Picard's old friend, Captain Walker Keel, on the line. He demands for the ship to detour to an abandoned mining planet for a secret meeting. Picard is confused but curious, and humors him. Upon arriving at the planet and beaming down, Picard is confronted by not just Keel, but two other captains, who try to Bluff the Impostor to make sure Picard is really Picard before telling them of their concerns of a subversion in the Federation. The evidence is both vague and disturbing: mysterious disappearances and deaths in the ranks, bizarre orders and personnel shuffles, among other things. Picard doesn't buy it, but agrees to keep his eyes open for anything unusual that would corroborate their stories, assigning Data to look over Starfleet's recent activities upon returning to the ship as a precaution before heading back on course to Pacifica.

Unfortunately, the conspiracy decided to make its presence known shortly thereafter; the Enterprise comes across the destroyed wreckage of Keel's ship, and through his research, Data is able to confirm many of the odd occurrences Picard was told of, leading everyone to assume the worst: secret invasion. Picard decides to head to Starfleet Headquarters to figure out just what the hell is going on. Once there, Picard and Riker meet with a trio of admirals, all of whom seem to be acting very strangely. Things get weirder when we learn that one of them is Admiral Quinn, who, in a previous episode ("Coming of Age"), started the rumors of the conspiracy, but now insists he was only speaking metaphorically about acquiring new members of the Federation. While Riker is still not convinced, Picard is, and orders him to keep an eye on this admiral while he goes on a tour of the Enterprise.

Once on board, Quinn introduces Riker to a brain slug (no, not those ones), batting him around like a rag doll when he refuses to become one with the thing. When Worf and Geordi fail to stop him, Quinn is eventually subdued by Dr. Crusher, and an investigation reveals a similar brain slug within him. Apparently, these are the things that are trying to subvert the Federation, and as Picard soon learns, they've made their way into the highest levels of Starfleet. Fortunately, Riker recovers enough from his beating to pull off a successful fake-out to rescue Picard from assimilation, and together, they face off against the mother alien, possessing Quinn's second-in-command, Commander Dexter Remmick, who defiantly insists they only wanted "peaceful coexistence". The episode ends on a Red Herring Twist, with a homing signal being sent out to the Delta Quadrant. The End... Or Is It?

[Rating]
Barely even makes it up to
1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)

{Episode Commentary}
This G**-D*** Episode

Good Lord, this is trash. No other episode has gone further to portray Starfleet as a bunch of utter idiots before and since. Nobody figures out anything about the Parasites thing until this point, and, yet, there are staggering bits of evidence suggesting that someone should have figured it out. Like the whole eating maggots thing, and with relish, by a smiling Vulcan. Or how a commander like Remmick is busy apparently giving instructions to Admirals, or so.

But then, Starfleet is mildly military, and never before has the suggestion that Starfleet is staffed by trained morons and run by morons and led by idiots come up. It does here, so very very much.

The entire premise reminds one of those movies, invasion of the body snatchers or such, those idiotic things that came before any of the zombie movies, which zombie movies run on the principle of having to give every single human being an idiot ball to even work. Those kind of movies. The ones that makes you think if Hollywood is completely stupid. or if Hollywood thinks everyone is stupid 

This episode features one of those secret invasions type of things, people being controlled by something. If either the things doing the controlling had looked actually interesting or the story not been overdone with crappy B Scifi movies before this point in time. Then this episode might have been barely mediocre.

Then, we fall into the trap of what makes TNG so horrible: No {Scrubbed} setup. I didn't care about the kidnapped kids in that one episode, I didn't care much about Bablyon 5's Shadow War, and I struggled to care about the Narn-Centauri War. The only reason that I did care about the Narn and Centauri was thanks to those actors playing G'Kar and Londo. The only reason.

TNG suffers heavily from lack of setup and from its own medium. Given how "monster/Crisis" of of the week, the show is, I already know it will get solved out by the end credits. Then, I also know that it also features Roddenberry's super humans of the future, who are rather bland and uninteresting. And incredible preachy.

Apparently, according in this episode, having Starfleet Command under the control of something is bad. To be honest, I feel more like this episode is depicting what happens on Monday, and who knows if it will just as zany and nuts on Tuesday. Maybe Roddenberry should have shelved the "mildly" (Read as thoroughly dedicated incompetency) military Starfleet. Pretty much the whole series has been leading up to how thoroughly dedicated to incompetent behavior Starfleet is. In "The Naked Now", no mention is made of having anyone wear hazmat suits because something happened and that other crew died. In fact, the only time quaratine actually comes up, Geordi has managed to affect the entire crew already.

I would be horrified to imagine how Starfleet would handled the Coronavirus. Whelp, there goes the whole fleet.

Starfleet has apparently in the time since the TOS Films fallen in terms of general ability. In dealing with problems using Diplomacy and any of the Pew-Pew-Pew parts. For a bunch supposed to be representing Starfleet's best, well, I am going to quote somebody here...

"Then, I weep for the Species." (Kudos to Preed from Titan AE, after being told by Cole/Cale, about how Cale/Cole is  Humanity's Last Hope) (I hope it is close to right)

If the Enterprise D is the Flagship of Starfleet and represents the best, then clearly the general level of ability has fallen. Data is able to figure out that a pattern exists, which is surprising because of my understanding that Starfleet's general competency bar is such that a pattern represents a major above board level of general competency that Starfleet doesn't have.

Apparently at some point it was decided that "Mildly" Military is actual translation for barely competent to (Thanks to my civil war military types -- not able to pour piss out of a boot with written instructions on boot) horrendous. Seriously, really people? Only Data even notices a pattern? Don't you morons have computers?

Oh, that's right, we are operating in a future where the computer is barely functional above the level of something like an Apple 2 or the Macintosh or the PC equilvant. Something that could let you play "Oregon Trail" and die of dysentery or drown while fording a river. That sort of thing. Computers that die if you ask it to much.

Then, we have the wonderfulness, of how easily able and effectively, no one even notices for a while that something has happened. I guess, that general levels of whatever was happening by Starfleet Command is actually normal. That stupidity in some form, is the normal part? So, basic incompetence or rank incompetence is the standard? Okay.

Then, there is how one idea was originally there was going to be a "militant"/"Militarist" faction in charge of the events. Given later events in the series, I feel that dropping that idea was a serious blunder. The original idea would have given serious area for exploring that would have benefited the series later on.

instead we learned that becoming Roddenberry's supaWOKE humans makes you not able to handle things without the help of an English speaking French dude and the funny way to sit guy. what happens when those two leave? probably Tuesday and just the same amount of zany events. it's a wonder that they haven't blow up the universe already. in the last episode, picard's old flame had a husband who was able to open a hole/portal to another dimension.

those Vulcans must think that we are a species of laughing mad insane mad scientists. "that Doc Brown guy and his time traveling car is a real story" -- some poor Vulcan says before tearing out their hair and going crazy

and the science with the adrenal lands is totally bogus b.s. science. so Worf didn't get Worfed

But, good lord, this is a bad episode. Personal Canon: this episode never happened

again, good lord, this is a bad episode, equal to how bad Code of Honor was

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 (Starfleet is depicted as Super Incompetent)
Hidden Gems: 2
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 1
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 3 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 1 
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1 (Data uses antimatter to fix what went wrong)

----------


## Velaryon

With this episode it's painfully obvious that they originally had something else in mind, and then abandoned it to do... this, instead. The previous episode where we saw Admiral Quinn and Commander Remmick had them as obviously not taken over by alien parasites, which is possibly believable in the admiral's case but not for Remmick who plays host to the mother creature. Admittedly, when Remmick said he hoped to one day serve on the Enterprise in that previous episode I laughed out loud, but it was clear he was being a jerk because he was following Quinn's orders and maybe took them a little too seriously.

If I remember right, they had a deeper plot in mind but it was the victim of the episodic nature of TV at the time not really allowing for longer-term plots. I put it down to TNG being a product of its time and not really the show's own fault that they weren't allowed to tell longer stories much.

Anyway, I don't particularly care for this episode but have nowhere near the vitriol you apparently do for it.

----------


## russdm

> Anyway, I don't particularly care for this episode but have nowhere near the vitriol you apparently do for it.


I really didn't care for simply how much it goes to basically make Starfleet's leadership and everyone else appear so stupid, in how easily the deal is spotted. Eating Maggots? People can't remember anything in long term memory? Having a Vulcan smiling with relish while eating maggots? Seriously, no other Vulcan who saw that Vulcan didn't think that something was wrong? That Vulcan admiral was smiling and being un-Vulcan like. Nobody noticed?

Nobody on Earth noticed, and only those three that showed up (with a spy/plant) on that Dyt B place having noticed that something was going on.

That sheer amount of Idiot Ball holding to make some of these be ignored, like the maggots or Smiling Vulcan, just seriously boggle the mind. I have no problem with making the crew look ineffectual or in over their heads at times, but the entire G**-D*** Starfleet and every single Federation Official who interacted with those admirals, all of them are ineffectual or stupid? I...I Can't Buy that kind of crap.

As for getting some Arc for this episode to follow up on...

Oh, HELL, NO. Not with this Snidely Whiplash from Dudley Do Right Kind of Villains.

I expected more secretive sinister manipulation, less overt manipulation. Less clearly on display something was wrong, and more something that would have taken time to figure out.

I seriously wish the writing team and the other crew had been to have the balls or spine to tell Gene off, and had gone with a Militant/Militarist Starfleet Faction. This episode would have been so much better.

----------


## The Glyphstone

I'll be entirely honest - I have never seen this episode, and after reading your review I still have no idea what it is about or what happens. You spent your entire wordcount on how much you hate the episode, and almost nothing on the events that inspire such boiling rage.

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> I really didn't care for simply how much it goes to basically make Starfleet's leadership and everyone else appear so stupid, in how easily the deal is spotted. Eating Maggots? People can't remember anything in long term memory? Having a Vulcan smiling with relish while eating maggots? Seriously, no other Vulcan who saw that Vulcan didn't think that something was wrong? That Vulcan admiral was smiling and being un-Vulcan like. Nobody noticed?


Because the only people who saw that were infested or about to be infested. Still it was the dumb kinda bond villain movie of explaining your whole plan before you actually pull it off.




> With this episode it's painfully obvious that they originally had something else in mind, and then abandoned it to do... this, instead. The previous episode where we saw Admiral Quinn and Commander Remmick had them as obviously not taken over by alien parasites, which is possibly believable in the admiral's case but not for Remmick who plays host to the mother creature. Admittedly, when Remmick said he hoped to one day serve on the Enterprise in that previous episode I laughed out loud, but it was clear he was being a jerk because he was following Quinn's orders and maybe took them a little too seriously..


Because they weren't infected by that point. They'd caught on to the 'conspiracy' hence the Investigations in the episode 'Coming of Age' but at some point they uncovered the truth and were then infected or got infected when they got to close, then the mother creature migrated to Remmick.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

So, this episode was meant to be a precursor to introducing what eventually became the Borg, which were originally conceived as an insect hive species. Of course, those plans were aborted when they changed their minds about what the Borg would be and made them into cyborg zombies instead. The episode even ends with a mysterious signal sent into deep space that's never mentioned again.

----------


## russdm

> I'll be entirely honest - I have never seen this episode, and after reading your review I still have no idea what it is about or what happens. You spent your entire wordcount on how much you hate the episode, and almost nothing on the events that inspire such boiling rage.


put a plot summery in, from tvtropes

----------


## Velaryon

Got any new ones coming up? My own TNG rewatch is up to the beginning of season 3 now, and I've got a lot of thoughts to share about the season 2 episodes when we get there.

----------


## russdm

Sorry, I was busy in between the times.

Getting back to this

Season 1 Episode 25
The Neutral Zone
Stardate: 41986 (2364)

[Plot]
the crew are waiting on picard to get back from a conference. they discovered a space module from earth apparently. given how far away from earth it is, Data decides to pay a visit. the space module has several people on board and they were frozen (in carbonite) after death using cryogenics. picard gets back and data has the people who are living (not the two corpses) brought on board the enterprise.

the carbonite people get revived while picard sends the ship to the neutral zone. several outposts have been destroyed and it ought to be those romulans. picard wants useful information and he has to deal with the frozen people.

the freezee-ies are clare raymond, a homemaker; l.q. "sonny" clemonds, a musician; ralph offenhouse, money guy

none of the three know how to handle their situation though doesn't have a hard time adjusting than the others. both ralph and clare have concerns.

the crew heads to the neutral zone while the crew interact with the frozen ones and be all smugly superior, and treating them with a considerable amount of bigotry. apparently, alll humans in the 20th century are scumbags.

they arrive at the neutral zone and explore a little then encounter romulans. the encounter ends peacefully and the crew head off for further explorations.

[Rating]
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.
Hidden Gem

{Episode Commentary}
i consider this to be a hidden gem episode. it brings back the romulans. it also reveals that gene's future-humans are not as great or a perfect as they are supposed to be. the  feddies are or act like bigots here the most clearly. then we interact with the romulans. seeing the different alien powers can be interesting.

then there was the writers strike that happened.

a pretty good episode to finish the season on

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
Hidden Gems: 3
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 3 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 1 
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

Expect a in-depth analysis of the first season since it is over now.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

This is an episode I really didn't care much for.

It had good ideas, but tried to do too much at once, so instead of having a lighter episode based around trying to integrate into a future society OR a tense episode of border conflict being caused by an unknown enemy we had a mess of the two crunched together, and neither really got the treatment it deserved.

I don't remember the crew being particularly "smugly superior", except when dealing with Ralph. Since he spent a considerable amount of time being a complete, self-important **** I can't really blame them for that. He was also possibly a representation of a very 80's trope: The Yuppie.

----------


## Velaryon

I loved how indignant Ralph was about all his precious wealth being meaningless in 24th century society. Even when told that people on Earth want for nothing, he was mad because he was so used to his money granting him power and influence. I'm not generally fond of that kind of person so I enjoyed seeing him taken down a peg. The other two I had less of a reaction to.

I don't remember too clearly, but weren't both the Enterprise and the Romulans finding destroyed outposts on their sides of the Neutral Zone that they thought the other party was responsible for? I think this is more Borg foreshadowing.

----------


## Seppl

> I don't remember too clearly, but weren't both the Enterprise and the Romulans finding destroyed outposts on their sides of the Neutral Zone that they thought the other party was responsible for? I think this is more Borg foreshadowing.


Yes, it's clearly stated in the first 'proper' Borg episode, that the devastated planet (the one, Q teleports them to) looks just like what happened near the Neutral Zone.

----------


## Velaryon

> Yes, it's clearly stated in the first 'proper' Borg episode, that the devastated planet (the one, Q teleports them to) looks just like what happened near the Neutral Zone.


Which is a bit weird logistically speaking. Q sent them so far away that it would take them a couple _years_ to travel back under their own power. So that implies that either the Borg cube they encountered traveled to the Neutral Zone and then back in the other direction, or that there's a second cube that got there before the one they encountered.

----------


## russdm

Actually, you are both wrong. Technically, the destroyed outposts were supposed to be related to the last episodes bad guys. And the Borg were going to be a hive mind insect race. Things ended changing to retcon the destroyed outposts having been done by the Borg. Which then throws out the timeline and makes not clear where or how the Borg are exploring/located.

I don't think that there was any thinking about how screwed up the timeline got and with the Borg. According to the Q episode where Q teleports them away, the Borg might not have known anything. Then in Enterprise, Archer comments that the pseudo-Borg sent off a message in that episode.

So, working out exactly what was happening just can't be done.

I think that it is better to just assume that nobody paid any attention to continuity.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

It's more like the Borg continuity was changing as the first season of TNG went into the second season. The conspiracy episode (with the weird bug creatures) was meant to be about what was eventually changed into the Borg we now know.

Honestly, the Borg are probably the most heavily retconned species in the Star Trek canon, since they were originally introduced as if Q was totally responsible for them even knowing about humanity in the Alpha Quadrant, while also having the prior disappearing outposts along the Neutral Zone attributed to their invasive probing. Then after that, in Voyager they were known to the Hansen family (Seven of Nine's parents) several years before the Enterprise encountered them. Then because of the time travel events of ST First Contact, there were some remaining Borg drones which tried to contact the collective in the past on Enterprise.

So after all that, it's really hard to say what happened when and what the Borg really knew about the Federation and humanity. And that's not even mentioning how the Borg were originally introduced as only interested in technology, but then were changed to also want to assimilate biological entities so that creating Locutus would make sense.

----------


## Trafalgar

> Good Lord, this is trash. No other episode has gone further to portray Starfleet as a bunch of utter idiots before and since. Nobody figures out anything about the Parasites thing until this point, and, yet, there are staggering bits of evidence suggesting that someone should have figured it out. Like the whole eating maggots thing, and with relish, by a smiling Vulcan. Or how a commander like Remmick is busy apparently giving instructions to Admirals, or so.


I always questioned why teleporters didn't pick the parasites up. I always thought teleporters had a built in decontamination cycle. Like if you beamed up from a planet with an Alien tick on your leg, the teleport isolated the tick or at least notified the person at the panel that something was wrong.

I remember being shocked when this came out by the bad special effect gore when they shoot into the chest cavity of Remmick. I was like 10 or 11 at the time and this was a "PG" family show. Previously, phasers on kill either disintegrated the person or knocked them down dead with no apparent wounds. Here, it cuts you up and causes you to explode. I think this shoes the effect of Predator and Alien on early TNG.

----------


## Bohandas

> I would put this under "Things the series never followed up on". TNG teases us with moments looking like other cast members could die, but it never happens, and it gets only moderate close to look like happening.
> 
> Shame about all that possible drama


I prefer that series avoid death by newberry award

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## GloatingSwine

> I always questioned why teleporters didn't pick the parasites up. I always thought teleporters had a built in decontamination cycle. Like if you beamed up from a planet with an Alien tick on your leg, the teleport isolated the tick or at least notified the person at the panel that something was wrong.


Depends whether the transporter was set to Drama that week.

If it was then it'd probably swap your brain with the alien tick and you'd have to try and explain it to the crew before your body sucked too many redshirts dry.

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## tomandtish

> Season 1 Episode 24
> 
> But then, Starfleet is mildly military, and never before has the suggestion that Starfleet is staffed by trained morons and run by morons and led by idiots come up. It does here, so very very much.


There will be other times when it becomes blatantly obvious, and some occurring in the past will be referenced as moments of genius. 

Case in point: The Picard Maneuver.

The Picard Maneuver is a battle tactic invented by Starfleet Captain Jean-Luc Picard. In 2355, Picard was in command of the USS Stargazer when it was attacked by an unknown alien vessel, later determined to be of Ferengi origin.

During the engagement, the Battle of Maxia, the Stargazer, which was holding station several million kilometers away from its adversary, suddenly accelerated to warp 9 directly towards the Ferengi ship. Because the enemy was only equipped with light speed sensors, they had no way of knowing that the Stargazer had moved until it was too late. When the light from the newly-moved ship reached the Ferengi ship's sensors, the light from its previous position was still arriving, so the Ferengi saw two Stargazers. Even if they had figured out that the new image was the genuine one in time, it would have been too late, as the Stargazer opened fire as soon as it dropped out of warp, and the Ferengi ship had no time to maneuver out of the way before the phasers and photon torpedoes hit. The Ferengi ship was destroyed. This technique was so successful that it was named after Picard, and there was no known defense against it until 2364.


Note that this is basic stuff, and should be a standard tactic when used against anyone without FTL sensors, which existed in Kirk's day. That no one figured this "tactic" out until Picard does not speak well of the intelligence of Starfleet.

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## Gnoman

For the Picard Maneuver to make sense, you need a very specific scenario.


1. You need to have reliable FTL drive. Not just something you can travel with, but something you can spin up at a moment's notice.
2. You have to be fighting at sublight.
3. You have to be fighting somebody that does not have FTL sensors, and be aware of this fact
4. You have to be fighting at a long enough range that the lightspeed sensors will have meaningful delay.
5. You must be losing at this range, despite the difference in sensor speed theoretically giving you a huge advantage.

It is quite plausible that that exact scenario rarely shows up, and Picard's encounter was the first time somebody faced it and came up with a solution instead of dying or fleeing.

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## Arcane_Secrets

> I always questioned why teleporters didn't pick the parasites up. I always thought teleporters had a built in decontamination cycle. Like if you beamed up from a planet with an Alien tick on your leg, the teleport isolated the tick or at least notified the person at the panel that something was wrong.


They do but its not omniscient although its pretty powerful. (This comes up actually a bit in some later episodes). If something is completely unknown to it, or there's a really good simulation or false generation of signals effect, the decontamination cycle might miss it.

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## Peelee

> For the Picard Maneuver to make sense, you need a very specific scenario.
> 
> 
> 1. You need to have reliable FTL drive. Not just something you can travel with, but something you can spin up at a moment's notice.
> 2. You have to be fighting at sublight.
> 3. You have to be fighting somebody that does not have FTL sensors, *and be aware of this fact*
> 4. You have to be fighting at a long enough range that the lightspeed sensors will have meaningful delay.
> 5. You must be losing at this range, despite the difference in sensor speed theoretically giving you a huge advantage.
> 
> It is quite plausible that that exact scenario rarely shows up, and Picard's encounter was the first time somebody faced it and came up with a solution instead of dying or fleeing.


Bolding mine, because it's probably the single most salient point.

And, as an aside, I prefer the _other_ Picard Maneuver.

----------


## russdm

> Note that this is basic stuff, and should be a standard tactic when used against anyone without FTL sensors, which existed in Kirk's day. That no one figured this "tactic" out until Picard does not speak well of the intelligence of Starfleet.





> For the Picard Maneuver to make sense, you need a very specific scenario.
> 
> 1. You need to have reliable FTL drive. Not just something you can travel with, but something you can spin up at a moment's notice.
> 2. You have to be fighting at sublight.
> 3. You have to be fighting somebody that does not have FTL sensors, and be aware of this fact
> 4. You have to be fighting at a long enough range that the lightspeed sensors will have meaningful delay.
> 5. You must be losing at this range, despite the difference in sensor speed theoretically giving you a huge advantage.
> 
> It is quite plausible that that exact scenario rarely shows up, and Picard's encounter was the first time somebody faced it and came up with a solution instead of dying or fleeing.


Regarding the Picard thing: It is actually said during the episode that Picard was traveling at WARP 2 when the Ferengi ship opened fire. So the Ferengi had FTL sensors or they couldn't have targeted Picard's Ship. That means they should not have problems scanning the real ship. Nothing about how the battle happened makes sense as a result.

The second issue happens to be that the visual of the ship, shows it moving towards the ship. Which should have been a clue of where to fire, without using the sensors.

Apparently, everyone forgot about the Eye and Eyeball, that humans get issued two of at birth.

I really think it was put in to explain some kind of victory thing and with a set up to make Picard as good a fighter as Kirk was, rather than anything else. Gene might have wanted to show how Picard was somehow better than Kirk.

Moving on....

So, I said that I would do a Season Review and so here it is)

The first season of TNG is...

Not very good

The show is trying, but it is really falling flat. I was never excited to see another episode, the way I was/am when watching DS9 and I was not that much impressed with what I did see. There were a few episodes that were really good, but the bulk of the episodes where just "meh" at best. Not good, not bad, just "meh".

I fully blame Gene and the writers because the characters are pretty terrible to me, aside from Data and Worf and Q. I actually think that losing the entire rest of the cast but those 3 characters would not be any loss.

Picard -- The Captain of the ship, Picard has no heart and no soul. This is not the character that would be affected by his experience with the Kataan Probe, nor the Picard that had been facing death by fighting 3 Nausicans. The man who had been shaped by a near death experience as suggested by Q in the Tapestry episode. The one that took advantages of opportunities. This Picard is too much of a ninny, too much of a party line follower. He lacks anything that makes him an interesting character to watch. To much of a fussy bureaucrat. I can't see this Picard being the sort that could actually teach Data about Humanity.

Riker -- Basically Kirk as first officer instead of Captain with bits stapled on. No beard either yet, but just...just...boring. I don't get it. Riker comes across as boring. I think it's how much he just Kirk-clones (Like Char Clones)

Beverly Crusher -- A doctor, I guess, and a mother. She suffers from the fact there is considerably plot reasons for her to show up, since the Crew Can't Fight Anymore (As Gene Commands). Incredibly boring as result.

Wesley Crusher -- Marty Sue or part Marty Sue part super Creator's Pet. Gene made himself a self-insert Fanfic character. Actually could have huge potential thanks to that Travele/o/r guy episode, but it gets wasted later on.

Deanna Troi -- She of how Gene wanted to have 6 breasts, but Thank Heaven Gene's wife talked him out of that. Or we would have seen Troi running around with extra boobs. Is half-alien and that makes her able to sense emotions or lies or something. Barely came up on using that majorly important development, because it could have been used for some amusing plots. Meet some alien or presence or whatever with feelings of rage or something, have Troi lead the Captain to help give said alien some therapy and make it work to help explore. That potential? promptly wasted.

Geordi La Forge -- the blind guy. Why is he blind? doesn't it matter that he has a special tool that lets him see in a unique way, that could be helpful in some plots. They could have made him be a seeing fellow and it would meant nothing. Geordi's visor and what it can do, doesn't really come into play much. which is a bad use of what could have included some interesting plots.

Natasha Yar -- A lady that does things. Basically space cop. I just don't know what makes having her instead of some guy really does for the series.

Worf -- The better version of SovietUnion Chekov from TOS. Where Walter Koenig played a character that was the SovietUnion Enemy and Sulu was the Japanese Enemy characters, so Michael Dorn's Worf is the latest version of "Your real life enemy is present as an in-character friend". Being a Klingon allows us to explore someone with a entirely different set of moral beginnings and moral philosophy. I really love all of the Klingon stuff in the Series.

Data -- The other breakout character besides Worf. Pretty amazing, worth watching.

That's the main characters. Who aside from Worf and Data, are expected to be better future humans than any currently living humans. Gene's super Future Humans, the Marty Sue ones.

Gene, to be honest, let the time period between TOS went off the screen and TNG began into development, and slightly before the Motion Picture, have a trait of letting the years then, just promptly go to his head, go on a real ego trip. The same way that George Lucas did.

So, Gene has his Ego TRIP, and ends up deciding on he wants the future humans to be: better than current humans, SUPER-WOKE, and ultimately super boring. Not like the TOS characters way of being WOKE and considerably less in your face about how horrible you, the viewer, is in general. The characters in TOS, you wanted to know and be friends with and hang out with.

None of the TNG characters have that, frankly, besides Worf and Data. This is a real problem.

I didn't care anything about what was happening most of the time.

TNG suffers heavily from the Babylon 5 problem, I think. It tries to make you care about the different characters but I think the ones that I liked in that show was Londo and G'Kar, because the Actors were so good at that. It made the  Narn-Londo'sFunnyHairPeople have a meaning and realness to what was happening compared the plunky Shadow-Vorlon conflict/debate/childishTantrums. Having Delenn and everything always acting so OMINOUS & DRAMATIC about those two groups, the Shadows and Vorlons, make it hard to take them seriously when they showed up in full form.

Then both shows have that massive "Monster of the week" style of TV. That didn't help it any. When the kids got kidnapped in that one episode, we should have gotten an episode before that let us meet the kids, in a less kidnappy plot, something that just featured them in the background, so we saw them before and know that they were present, since that would have made a much better result of Drama when the kids got kidnapped.

It is mentioned in George Takei's autography book about how the original cast (besides Shatner) though that the new TNG was pretty bad. Then it got better. I would agree on George's point on how bad TNG is. It is pretty bad so far. It will get better. Picard will get a heart and soul (metaphorically, since Picard has an artificial one), Riker will grew a beard, and ah, oh, the other cast members besides Worf and Data will be just as boring as they have been.

And in Season 2, we will get introduced to one of the writing room group's worst of all possible ideas: Recreating the Spock and Bones dynamic, with A doctor and Data. Ms Doctor Pusalki.  (Whatever the hell her name is)

And it will require some new counters/trackers be made:

1) Dr. P is mean to Data

2)Dr. P verbally belittles Data or treats him with contempt

3) Dr. P acts and treats Data like some fancy shmancy tool device that needs to be put into its proper place.

4) Dr. P acts racist towards Data

5) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned

Yeah, those will be high numbers (If I am remembering my impression of the dialogues and events correctly, as I may not be)

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

I think you are a little harsh on the characters and the series.

IIRC, the Picard/Riker setup was put in to answer the question "Why is the captain - the most important person on the ship, going down to the dangerous planet", by splitting the old "Kirk" role into two characters. But the writers found out that this didn't really work in practice, so over time it got abandoned.

Deanna Troi came across as a wet mess. The characterisation improved in later seasons when they stopped focussing so much on her abilities and started giving her more of a character. 

Wesley Crusher was frankly a waste of time. My problem with him wasn't the "Marty Stu" accusation (at the time I didn't even know the term "Mary Sue"), my problem was that he was a very obviously inserted to give younger viewers a viewpoint character. Shows like Star Trek don't handle such characters well as permanent cast, and I don't think the writers really knew what to do with him.

Natasha Yar? I'm not sure why you feel that her being female is an issue - In fact I don't ever recall the gender balance of the TNG series really being an issue, at least for me. 

The show may have been more progressive than you like - but even TOS was for it's time (Nyota Uhura, anyone?).  "Woke" isn't an accusation that would have been made back then, and I don't think it's a fair accusation now.

And the Monster of the Week thing? Well, that was pretty much Sci-Fi at the time. You didn't get a plot that lasted longer than an episode or two, and as I recall it was B5 that broke the mould by starting to introduce a background story arc. Star Trek (DS9 especially) improved dramitically once it started doing the same, and that in turn forced B5 to up it's game.

(Of course, Dr Who got there first, since the from the beginning the stories tended to be four to six part; and later on they had a few multi-story arcs like the Key of Time and Trial of a Time Lord.)

But yes, over all the first couple of seasons had more in potentia rather than realised, but at least had enough potential to be worth working on. Even then, the early seasons of TNG were still good for their time. They look worse looking back because the quality of Sci-Fi has improved markedly since then.

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## russdm

My problems with the "WOKE" is how in your face about it, the Series happens to be, and Not by making it a natural part of the story. The WOKE about Racism in "Let this be your last battlefield" (The one with the two guys with black/white skins on different sides of their bodies) worked well because it incorporated the message it was going for in a way that felt it came up naturally. It wasn't suddenly dumped in using some comment. Even more important, The characters in TOS are human.

TNG goes with with SUPA-FUTURE HUMANS. Who are portrayed as being as perfect as they can and everybody else can't measure up. And then they (Gene) goes out of the way to have Riker comment about how amazing it is that our 20th century race survived, after meeting a mother (Clare-Homemaker), a musican (Sonny) and a guy that works with money (Ralph). Then we get comments at points too.

TOS in my opinion was very "Hey, you should pay attention to this", and explore what "This" was supposed to be.

TNG (Under Gene) was very "Hey, YOU MORON! You are a horrible person and should do this instead" and said what "This" was supposed to be.

TOS never felt like it was trying to actively insult me the way TNG (Under Gene) did. This is best exemplified in the episode in Season 3 with the Mintakans, with Picard treating Religious belief as being absolutely horrible, like the worst thing ever. He doesn't approach it from what the Mintakans experienced or what he could have learned about their culture. He treats the Religious stuff as going to Backwards Fear and Superstition and General Idiocy and that Religious types/stuff makes you incapable of living above being a cave dwelling person without technology, that it dumps you back into Stone Age living.

Gene let his personal philosophy heavily influence how stories went. Rather than getting that checked over by writers, they just went with his ideas and they totally accepted his design that none of the Human characters would have drama amongst themselves or independent thought. All of the main cast agree quite heavily with whatever the Federation is, and others (not main cast) should be begging to join the Federation because it is absolutely wonderful in every possible way. It just comes across as disjointed.

It was like what Master Complex of Paranoia would really by like or something.

I would suggest that people ought to watch the Honest Trailer for Star Trek the Next Generation.

I stand by that this Season is being not good. It is not as bad as it could have been, and it is not as good/great as it could have been but how could have it been better? There are areas definitely for improvement, areas that would make for a better show.

What I think is the most sad or ironic, is simply how much the show ends up improving in general after Gene leaves. It is a real tragedy of sorts, that fact.

As for the characters))

Yar: The most of what we know about her is that Picard knows her from some previous encounters, and that she had to hide from rape gangs. Beyond that, we don't know why she picked security when she joined Starfleet. Why she decided that was the path her life was to go on. What makes her the way she is? We never find out. It feels too much like that just made a female character pick because they needed a female character. She gets little characterization. Then she dies and only comes up again once.

Troi: I have to agree about Troi.

Wesley Crusher: To be honest, Wesley would have worked had the writers worked to remove or cripple Gene's ability to make Wes such a writer insert. The concept of Wesley as a kinda of Audience Surrogate of a fan being in Star Trek as it were, that would have worked. Then Gene decided that Wesley had to be Mr Solve-it, Mr Know-it-all. Wesley figures out the solution to the problems being caused in the Battle episode. Way before any of the main cast even figure out something may be going on. Gene made him into basically a self-insert, and a character that was super awesome. No effort was made to make him what he was, a teenager growing up. Instead, Gene had to make him essentially Star Trekkian Space Jesus.

What they could have:

1) Conspiracy: Make Quinn one of Picard's old friends. Someone that means more to Picard than just as some admiral. They introduced Walker/Walter Keel as Picard's old friend, they could have done the same with Quinn. Make  Rimmick less annoying, less of a general Prick.

The big one -- Go with the Militant Faction plot, and if you have to, appeal to the head of the studios or whatever to overrule Gene. Give us a chance to see how and why Starfleet works better with those like Picard than a bunch of Militants or Militarists. Show us how the difference would be.

A smaller one -- Insert references to past weird orders or background events of Starfleet in the earlier episodes. Get a sense made of something weird, just happening, then tie in the Conspiracy part. It would have worked out better.

2) The Kids -- Have an episode that showcases them and has them doing things, something pretty basic. Then do the kidnapped episode. Let us have the chance to meet the kids and spend an episode with them, then have another episode to kidnap them. Let us see the kids in episodes in between the two episodes.

Just because at the time Scifi Shows are doing "monster of the week" doesn't mean that you can't have character moments or things that pay off in a later episode. Non Scifi shows frankly do "Problem of the Week" type of stories way better. 

As to the above not being doable...The TOS movies did this. Star Trek 2 and 3 and 4 are a movie and that movie's two sequels following up. that could have been copied some in the Series.

Even the TOS actors (George and Walter) thought the show was bad. Then they both thought the show had gotten good. I think that should really say it all

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## Bohandas

I don;t know why there's so much hate here for episodic TV. Personally I prefer shows that remain watchable even if removed from the context of Netflix, which rules out all arc-based programs. I'd rather watch a proper series than a glorified miniseries any day

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## russdm

> I don;t know why there's so much hate here for episodic TV.


Hey, I love MASH, which is episodic and a few others that are. It is just...Science Fiction doesn't always work out when doing Episodic TV style (Case in point, see Star Trek Voyager).

Some times the Episodic TV Plot is just too much, like in Conspiracy or in the Kids getting kidnapped episode. We got introduced to the kids earlier and then they get kidnapped. We don't get to meet the kids in another episode, so we at least know them briefly, and see how things are for the kids normally. Instead, we meet them and then they get kidnapped, and then we never see how it is normally. So, no emotional connection really. It undercuts, unintentionally, the tension of the kids having been kidnapped, because we have not seen them before yet. It is a little too much, too fast.

TOS was strictly entirely Episodic TV, and it was considered pretty good (Aside from those Nelson/Nielson ratings) and was campy but loved. By then, TOS didn't take itself seriously the way that TNG does. This may be one of the problems TNG has. It is too self-serious.

or maybe Shatner's hammy acting did something?...

I don't know. Both TOS and TNG are episodic TV, but yet have ended up with completely different tones that affect how likable they are.

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## Lord Vukodlak

> TOS never felt like it was trying to actively insult me the way TNG (Under Gene) did. This is best exemplified in the episode in Season 3 with the Mintakans, with Picard treating Religious belief as being absolutely horrible, like the worst thing ever. He doesn't approach it from what the Mintakans experienced or what he could have learned about their culture. He treats the Religious stuff as going to Backwards Fear and Superstition and General Idiocy and that Religious types/stuff makes you incapable of living above being a cave dwelling person without technology, that it dumps you back into Stone Age living.


Does he? 
Whether or not are religious or not. You can not argue with Picard's statement that by pretending to be a deity and laying down scripture he would be encouraging superstition and ignorance and fear not because its a religion but because its a lie. Picard is not a god.

At no point does Picard ever disparage Worfs religious beliefs even in the episode where those beliefs could lead him to commit ritual suicide.

You want to be mad at Picard for his actions in that episode you should be upset that he was willing to let that Mintakan die in order to preserve the prime directive.

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## russdm

> Does he? 
> Whether or not are religious or not. You can not argue with Picard's statement that by pretending to be a deity and laying down scripture he would be encouraging superstition and ignorance and fear not because its a religion but because its a lie. Picard is not a god.
> 
> At no point does Picard ever disparage Worfs religious beliefs even in the episode where those beliefs could lead him to commit ritual suicide.
> 
> You want to be mad at Picard for his actions in that episode you should be upset that he was willing to let that Mintakan die in order to preserve the prime directive.


He actually has one of the other survey team guys in that episode die. Like the character ends up dying and he shows the Mintakan lady that he (Picard) beams up to convince her that he is not a God.

But whenever he rejects the Survey Team Leader's suggestions about Impersonating a God, Picard doesn't mention how it is wrong under the Prime Directive to do and that Picard will not break the Prime Directive. Or does Picard mention that Impersonating a God goes against Starfleet's principles which Picard learned. That even suggesting to Picard to consider it is basically going against one of Picard's core values/beliefs.

But, instead, Picard makes no mention of any of that as his reasons or part of them for saying "No". Lying by impersonating a god goes against his beliefs. the principles he learned and applied through Starfleet. That impersonating a god goes against the spirit of the Prime directive as well as the letter of its law.

No. all that comes up, from my recollection, is backwards religious beliefs make people, because Picard just doesn't apply that reasoning to the Mintakans but to humans as well.

Could they have made it more clear that Picard is solely talking about the Mintakans and their views of religion and such? Yes, the writers could have been very much clearer.

Also, despite the questionable ness over the religious, that particular episode is a still pretty good episode.

Like how the Darmok episode is another really good episode. Even if Darmok is a little bit daft.

But still, Darmok and Jalad at Tanegra!

Oh, and about letting the Mintakan die...

That is actually the right call to make, from based on what or how I understand the prime directive has been applied. after all, the Prime Directive got interpreted at points to allow entire pre-warp Civilizations to die if some natural diaster occurred that caused some kind of damage, and that the starfleet crew could have prevented.

So, kinda shifty on the prime directive thing.

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## Manga Shoggoth

> TOS was strictly entirely Episodic TV, and it was considered pretty good (Aside from those Nelson/Nielson ratings) and was campy but loved. By then, TOS didn't take itself seriously the way that TNG does. This may be one of the problems TNG has. It is too self-serious.
> 
> or maybe Shatner's hammy acting did something?...


I think that is probably the fairest criticism against TNG. It took itself very seriously, where TOS wasn't afraid to ham it up when necessary. I think it was trying too hard to distance itself from other sci-fi of the day.

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## Kareeah_Indaga

> Yar: The most of what we know about her is that Picard knows her from some previous encounters, and that she had to hide from rape gangs. Beyond that, we don't know why she picked security when she joined Starfleet.


I think you answered your own question here. If _I_ grew up having to dodge rape gangs, Id definitely want a career path that let me go around armed!

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## Lord Vukodlak

> But whenever he rejects the Survey Team Leader's suggestions about Impersonating a God, Picard doesn't mention how it is wrong under the Prime Directive to do and that Picard will not break the Prime Directive. Or does Picard mention that Impersonating a God goes against Starfleet's principles which Picard learned. That even suggesting to Picard to consider it is basically going against one of Picard's core values/beliefs.


Doctor Barron, I cannot, I will not, impose a set of commandments on these people. To do so violates the very essence of the Prime Directive.
-Picard.

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## Gnoman

> Hey, I love MASH, which is episodic and a few others that are. It is just...Science Fiction doesn't always work out when doing Episodic TV style (Case in point, see Star Trek Voyager).


M*A*S*H is an excellent example of a show that does episodic well. You can watch pretty much any episode in any order as long as you know about the cast changes -Col. Potter replacing Col. Blake, Charles Emerson Winchester replacing Frank Burns, etc- without being confused or missing key plot details.


But the characters evolve significantly and are allowed to have meaningful change. The relationship between Hawkeye and Houlihan is probably the most dramatic example - they go from acrid enemies through a complicated phase to a genuine friendship based on mutual respect.

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## Velaryon

I think I'm in the minority opinion, in that I think TNG's first season isn't really bad. It's definitely still finding its footing, and there are a few major swing-and-miss moments, but the overall result was still mostly entertaining to me.

My understanding is that Denise Crosby left because she got tired of being background decoration on the bridge and somewhat rarely getting to do anything significant. I can kinda see where she was coming from but to me the greater issue (and one that I have with Worf as well) is that her primary function seems to be to stand there and suggest the military course of action - raise shields, fire on the unknown vessel, etc. - only for Picard to shoot down that idea and show that violence isn't the answer. There's nothing wrong with that message, but it just seems to be a point that gets hammered over and over again in the first couple seasons.

The number of times season 1 Worf gets relegated to agreeing with Tasha on these things also drives home a) how redundant the two characters were in most ways, and b) how odd it was for him to be at the conn instead of part of the security team. On more than one occasion it feels like his true role was assistant security chief all along.

On the other hand, that means when Worf is shifted over to security chief after Yar's death, it feels very natural. Contrast that to Geordi becoming chief engineer, which feels very much like they did it just to give him something to do. I had forgotten about the revolving door of forgettable chief engineers in season 1, and in retrospect that seems very strange to me. Considering that Scotty was almost inarguably the 4th most important TOS character behind Kirk/Spock/McCoy, the idea that they apparently thought they just didn't need a character in that role is really hard to wrap my brain around.

I do agree that Geordi's extra abilities from his visor are often underutilized. Narratively the visor's main purpose is to serve as an exposition device for scientific stuff in the way that Troi's empathic powers are a device to indicate antagonists' intentions and provide Picard a sounding board for making decisions on the bridge. The problem is that the visor overlaps a lot with tricorders in that respect, and also that Data is a _much_ better source of technobabble explanations for various phenomena the crew encounters than Geordi. I do find Geordi very likable and I think the disability representation he provides is worthwhile regardless of its plot value, but I cannot deny he's underutilized.

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## russdm

I agree with what you are saying, Velaryon

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## russdm

So the second season was starting up with the writers' strike that was going on. This meant that some of the filming scripts come from the Star Trek Phase II. Those were modified for the Next Generation and it's characters.

also, Gates mcfadden (dr. beverly crusher) left the role that she was doing so a replacement character was put together. Then, they needed to cast a new person for the role. And then that Bones and Spock was popular.

Thus was born the character of dr. catherine pulaski, a character played by Diana Muldaur, who featured in the original series. She played a few roles there and also elsewhere. Shows that she has some good acting talent.

So, we get to see how it goes. Well, to spoil it, not very. The Bones and Spock dynamic of Dr. P and Data doesn't actually end up working through the season. But we will get to that later.

Now, onward to Season 2! Onward!

Season 2 Episode 1
The Child
Stardate: 42073.1

[Plot]
the crew are picking up some things to take elsewhere. we learn that Laforge has been made chief engineer and that Worf is wearing his new silver baldric. it is pretty cool looking.

a little glowy thing appears and goes off to explore the ship. the glowy thing visits the corridors, where it sees follows some guys towards a turbolift. it ends up floating to visit miss Troi.

The picked up stuff goes to the planet and things happen with it a little.

The new doctor is in Ten forward, talking with Troi, who had the glowy thing make her become with child. Said doctor is Dr. P, who is abrasive and not friendly. She also talks down to Data, and even gets his name wrong. She does acknowledge that he insists on how his name is pronounced. she makes comments about him having cold metal parts and not being able to do any comfort for troi giving birth but troi asks for him.

Troi is with child and it is going fast through development, then she has the kid. then the kid is older and then the kid reveals about wanting to learn about human life. the glowy thing is responsible for making the stuff that got picked up earlier being changed up some.

during this episode, wesley is making considerations about starfleet, but stays with the ship.

we also meet guinan as played by whoopi goldberg

[Rating]
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

{Episode Commentary}
so we have the first episode of the new season. two characters are moved to new jobs. we meet the new doc.

the plots are basic in terms of how they come across. don't break any new ground but are not bad either.

pulaski starts her time out bad and she acts pretty abrasive to people, maybe she will get better...


So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
Hidden Gems: 3
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 3 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 1 
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 1
2)Dr. P verbally belittles Data or treats him with contempt: 1
3) Dr. P acts and treats Data like some fancy shmancy tool device that needs to be put into its proper place.:
4) Dr. P acts racist towards Data:
5) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## Velaryon

I was actually much more bothered about how accepting Troi is of this alien being forcing itself inside of her than I was with Dr. Pulaski's comments toward Data. It makes sense that someone who wasn't familiar with him might react how she does. She takes it a bit far a couple times (the holodeck episode with Moriarty is the worst of it, as I remember it), but outside of a couple bad incidents I wasn't bothered by their dynamic. It definitely didn't recapture the Spock/Bones dynamic as well as they were trying, but I didn't hate it.

----------


## russdm

> I was actually much more bothered about how accepting Troi is of this alien being forcing itself inside of her than


Yeah, I tried to avoid Rating the episode based on this and how much Rape-y in feeling the episode's plot is. It's just hard to accept that Star Trek would make an episode like this and nobody would bring up how Troi is being treated before the show was finished and aired. But then there is one possible answer...

Gene Roddenberry and his mixed...attitudes...towards women. After all, this is a Phase 2 script that had been approved or submitted to Gene that was dusted off some.

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> Yeah, I tried to avoid Rating the episode based on this and how much Rape-y in feeling the episode's plot is. It's just hard to accept that Star Trek would make an episode like this and nobody would bring up how Troi is being treated before the show was finished and aired. But then there is one possible answer...
> 
> Gene Roddenberry and his mixed...attitudes...towards women. After all, this is a Phase 2 script that had been approved or submitted to Gene that was dusted off some.


Gene wasn't even involved in the writing of either the Phase 2 script or The Child. And given how they doubled down on this fiasco in the Enterprise episode Unexpected. I think the this is a general attitude towards consent and not women.

----------


## russdm

That may be true. I just recall either reading on tvtropes or memory alpha about Gene having things related to women. I may have confused it in.

To be honest, I think that Star Trek has had issues in relation to women and how it treated them. Some in TOS were products of being the 60s. I don't think that TNG could employ that same excuse.

Plus time and society too have gone on. The Troi plot would be unlikely to happen today. It just threads to close to unacceptable actions and wouldn't have been today

----------


## GloatingSwine

Gene had some weirdness around sex that made it into a few early TNG episodes.

This wasn't part of it though.

It was, however, a plot that popped up from time to time. Usually complete with literally nobody taking the bodily autonomy of the female character involved seriously _at all_. (See also: Avengers #200).

(The one time I can remember it not being treated as no big deal was in The X-Files where it was a multi-part arc and treated as a big deal for the entire mythos of the show and the character.)

----------


## Bohandas

To be fair, I can't really imagine pregnancy still being a big deal with star trek level medical technology. If it still poses any inconvenience or health risks at all in the year 2367 then something has gone *seriously* wrong with the advancement of medical technology.

----------


## Gnoman

The pregnancy subplot would probably have been alright if it had been the episode's only plot and was given more agency from Troi (there's potential valid reasons for her to act the way she does, but doesn't give any of them). As it was, they shoved the "Pulaski meets Data" in enough to cripple it.

----------


## Wintermoot

> To be fair, I can't really imagine pregnancy still being a big deal with star trek level medical technology. If it still poses any inconvenience or health risks at all in the year 2367 then something has gone *seriously* wrong with the advancement of medical technology.


The fact that you see the issue with forcing an unwanted pregnancy on a woman being purely the medical hardships and health risks is indicative of the overall problem.

----------


## Bohandas

What other problem could it possibly cause her?

Is this a bodily autonomy purely on principle for it's own sake thing? Because this episode has nothing on the ending to _Phage_, which basically ends with Janeway selling Neelix's organs at a loss, and I've never heard this kind of vitriol about _Phage_ (is it because it's Neelix?)

----------


## Ionathus

Fun story. The only thing I knew about Star Trek: TNG when I started my first watch-through, four years ago, was the phrase "Growing the Beard" came from here, and specifically at the start of Season 2 when Riker has a beard now. And then I watched The Child, and almost stopped watching the series, because I was worried people thought _this_ was the best it had to offer. 

I hated The Child so much. The plot was rapey, maudlin, overwrought drama that didn't make any sense. Nobody acted like themselves, which is impressive given the writers only had a single season of characterization to mess up. The alien was supposed to be portrayed sympathetically I guess, but I just hated every second of its screentime. I'll admit a bit of this vitriol comes from reading the _Twilight_ series and having a bad taste in my mouth about fast-growing babies, but it was poorly done by any standard I can put to it.

And then there's Dr. Pulaski, who I only liked for half of one episode (the one where she's supposedly about to die due to her own mistakes). I'd liked Dr. Crusher a lot and they replaced her with this stuck-up jerk with absolutely zero charisma and bad, half-formed pseudo-intellectual opinions about Data that made her seem callous (understandable given the context you provided about wanting another Bones) and idiotic (inexcusable for a high-ranking Starfleet medical officer). Nothing about her character ever worked for me. I gritted my teeth through this entire season, waiting for Pulaski to go.

Anyway, I've been lurking on this thread for awhile and waiting for you to hit an episode I had strong feelings about. Be careful what you wish for, I guess  :Small Big Grin: 




> What other problem could it possibly cause her?
> 
> Is this a bodily autonomy purely on principle thing? Because this episode has nothing on the ending to _Phage_


Yes, it's a "bodily autonomy on principle" thing. Men in sci-fi (with the exception of Futurama) never get hit with a surprise pregnancy for cheap drama, so it's something that almost only ever happens to women...because they're women. 

Pregnancy in real life is a deeply complicated topic for people -- some don't even want kids, some want lots, some can't have them, some feel conflicted. But "supernatural pregnancy" storylines in TV never seem to give a **** about any of this -- they just see a female character and make her pregnant, because wouldn't that be _interesting_? It's the same mentality that gets female characters raped for drama or to set up their backstory, without spending any amount of time to unpack it and give the topic the attention it deserves. A pregnancy arc in a long-running series can be good, but forcing it upon a character via weird alien stuff is creepy to the extreme, because it never treats the subject with any amount of nuance, and it almost always strips the mother of any agency or personality in the story.

----------


## DavidSh

In this particular episode, Troy doesn't treat the pregnancy as unwanted once it occurs.  The rest of the crew, as best I remember, was incredulous at this, but ultimately backs down.

Was it really mind control by the alien?
Is this normal behavior by a half-Betazoid who has been effectively raped?

Ordinarily, Troy acts much more human than Worf does, but she is not human.

----------


## Ionathus

> In this particular episode, Troy doesn't treat the pregnancy as unwanted once it occurs.  The rest of the crew, as best I remember, was incredulous at this, but ultimately backs down.
> 
> Was it really mind control by the alien?
> Is this normal behavior by a half-Betazoid who has been effectively raped?
> 
> Ordinarily, Troy acts much more human than Worf does, but she is not human.


As I remember it, there was some mental influence from the alien, but not full mind control. I think Troi really did "want" the baby...whether the writers were being truly honest to her character in *having* her want it is another matter.

And oh look, I just checked Wikipedia and the episode was written by three men. _Shocker_.

----------


## Bohandas

> Yes, it's a "bodily autonomy on principle" thing. Men in sci-fi (with the exception of Futurama) never get hit with a surprise pregnancy for cheap drama, so it's something that almost only ever happens to women...because they're women.


What about that one episode of _Red Dwarf_

EDIT:
Also, and this isn't a response to that particular comment but to the entire previous page of the thread, I don't see how it's rapey. Sex and pregnancy are two different things and you can have either one without the other.

EDIT:
If anything it's closer to forced labor, she's been forced into a temporary job as a surrogate. That's bad, but by the standards of things Star Trek officers get shanghaied into doing it's not too bad, at least they didn't get forced to fight in a gladitorial arena like Kirk, Uhura, and Chekov in _The Gamesters of Triskelion_ or forced into an ACTUALLY RAPEY situation like Vina and Captain Pike in _The Menagerie_

----------


## Ionathus

> What about that one episode of _Red Dwarf_


Having never seen _Red Dwarf_, I'm not sure what the episode was about. But from context I'm guessing it was about a dude getting pregnant? I figured there were examples I didn't know, which is why I put "almost" in there. 

And pregnant men have their own unacknowledged problems in "supernatural pregnancy" stories. It's always treated as a *hilarious situation*: "look at the pregnant man, he's so fat and he's doing stereotypically pregnant woman things! Men don't do woman things, haha!" When in reality, a pregnancy for me (a man) would be horrifying on a number of levels, not least of which is the, ahem, exit strategy. And that's not even accounting for the body image issues that plenty of pregnant people in real life have, and are also treated as silly if they happen to men. Honestly, if memory serves the Futurama episode was actually one of the more touching ones I remember.

Hot take: *Pregnancy stories should not happen in Sci-Fi*, unless they're season-long arcs with lots of exploration of the pregnant person's experience, or treated like the *actual* body horror they would inevitably be (only in the right subgenre of sci-fi horror, of course). Otherwise, these stories always butcher the experience of pregnancy. It's a huge, complicated topic that changes everyone who experiences it in different ways, and its depiction in all of fiction is one of the most watered-down and disrespectful treatments of real life. Don't half-ass a fictional pregnancy, full stop.

----------


## russdm

Nice great discussions people.

Also, I think I need to start a tag of countdown to the First Appearance of the Borg. Since they make an appearance later this season. And the Borg have always given me nightmares and...interesting...nightmares...
(Has anyone else had a weird dream/nightmare about being the Borg King type person with even a Borg style Throne Box to sit in and being in a Pyramid style Borg ship? Or has that been just me?)

Season 2 Episode 2
Where Silence Has Lease
Stardate: 42193.6

[Plot]
So the Episode starts with Us Viewers getting a look at what Klingon ideas about an exercise program is/are. A series of fights with some creatures. Which frankly just looks cool. (I always love Klingon Stuff). Picard is worried about Riker and Worf, who are employing the program. Worf goes a little wild, and starts being aggressive towards Riker.

The crew are visiting a place called Morgana Something, when they encounter a patch of empty space? Black Space? A space cloud? in space. After finding it something curious, naturally Picard must pay it a visit. Which they then do.

They send in a probe, and Worf mentions a Klingon Legend about a cloud/creature that devours Starships. Interesting. They send another probe, and then end up in the black could thing.

Dr. P comes on the bridge and has a moment with Data (She calls him "It" and suggests he doesn't know how to work his console), when Picard orders maxifciation be done (Making things further away go bigger and look closer). There seems to be nothing to see.

Dr. P talks to Data, but brings up that he is a machine, and then alive, and that she has to accept that. Data gives a smug little smile. The crew have some events happen.

Then they encounter a Romulan Warbird and have a brief fight. Then another galaxy class ship appears. Riker and Worf go over to explore and wee what happened. Naturally, it is a ghost ship.

Oh, and Miles O'Brien is manning the Transporter Station, (His Rank Badge or Rank is: Lt.)

Worf and Riker explore the ship, and then there are weird structural parts. The weirdness makes Worf be a little bit nutty or slightly insane. He has a moment of losing control because of the whole bridge(s) thing. then the ship disappears and the two are beamed back.

Some other events happen, and then Troi is detecting an "intelligence" or something. Apparently the crew are being experimented upon. So Picard decides to do nothing. Then something appears.

It is a bizarre entity that calls itself "Nagilum", whatever that is. It wants to learn about people and Sex (Because apparently, every single entity that doesn't understand human type creatures want to learn about Sex)

The Naggy (Nagilum) decides to kill the Redshirt (Meaning I need a tracker for this) and is curious. Then Naggy decides to test out dying on humans/humanoids some more. The crew are stunned over this.

Picard is having none of this and decides to blow up the ship. It is the option that he fills the best to do. So, Picard turns on the Self-Destruct function. Naturally, Naggy doesn't like this and creates some images of Troi and Data to get him to stop.

Picard sees through the trick, so Naggy ends up having to abandon things. The ship ends up back in normal space, and the self-destruct is halted. Then after a brief conversation, Naggy leaves. The crew go on there way.

[Rating]
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

{Episode Commentary}
To be honest, this episode just doesn't come across all that much like in terms of being interesting. Feels like a standard God-Like Entity messes with the Crew Episode. It feels a little bit just slow and uninteresting. A weird entity interacts with the crew. They wander around in a space cloud of sorts, have a few encounters, and then later, they encounter Naggy, who looks terrible. Despite the idea of exploring a perhaps different perspective, the episode just seems to slog on.

I liked the parts about learning about Klingon things, like Worf's program, and the legend. Those parts were pretty nice. And the other parts with Worf on the fictional Ship were nice too.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 3
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 3 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 2
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2)Dr. P verbally belittles Data or treats him with contempt: 2
3) Dr. P acts and treats Data like some fancy shmancy tool device that needs to be put into its proper place.: 1.5
4) Dr. P acts racist towards Data:
5) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> What other problem could it possibly cause her?
> 
> Is this a bodily autonomy purely on principle for it's own sake thing? Because this episode has nothing on the ending to _Phage_, which basically ends with Janeway selling Neelix's organs at a loss, and I've never heard this kind of vitriol about _Phage_ (is it because it's Neelix?)


People having their organs stolen is an urban legend. There arent real victims who can identify with what happened to Neelix.

Women being denied agency over their own bodies and being regarded as incubators is an actual issue. Now if you want a comparison look to Enterprises Unexpected.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Having never seen _Red Dwarf_, I'm not sure what the episode was about. But from context I'm guessing it was about a dude getting pregnant? I figured there were examples I didn't know, which is why I put "almost" in there.


Yes. Though not "supernaturally", the crew visit a parallel universe where everything is gender flipped (except the evolved cat, who is a dog).

Lister, the laddish character, gets drunk and has sex with the female version of himself. 

But _everything_ is gender flipped, including who gets pregnant.

The pregnancy itself isn't really the point though, it's the punchline of the episode and gets dealt with offscreen, it's about reflecting the dismissive way women are treated on the male characters.

----------


## Gnoman

I can't comment on this episode, because I generally forget it exists. I had to stop writing this comment three times to look back at what we were talking about.

----------


## Ionathus

Another episode that feels mostly like TNG still trying to be a TOS episode. I'm glad it grew beyond this because I agree, there was absolutely nothing special at all about this one.

Still prefer it over "Alien Baby Forces Troi Into a Hallmark Movie" though

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 
Elementary, Dear Data
Stardate: 42286.3

[Plot]
the crew are waiting for another ship to arrive. Geordi has made a model of the HMS Victory to present to the captain that he served with as the ship to arrive is also called Victory. Data comes and collects geordi to go do some holodeck cosplaying, as sherlock holmes and dr. watson

as it turns out, data remembers everything from all of the novels or stuff for sherlock holmes. dr.p mentions that data would have some trouble. data accepts a challenge

the first bit ends up being just a combo of two stories. so geordi goes to the arch and has the computer make an opponent for data, not holmes. the computer makes professor m get all smart.

what follows is an exploration of what would happen with a self aware hologram. in the end, picard promises to help professor m. the victory ship arrives and geordi is fixing his model.

[Rating]
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.

{Episode Commentary}
so this is a nice episode. it is not one of the holodeck mishaps since the crew (geordi) actually requested what ended up causing the problem. not sure that it is a problem though.

so professor m is the precursor to the emh and vic from ds9. the story is good in that it also shows ways that data could improve himself. also i think that we have a few episodes to go before we get to encounter data's pet spot.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 3
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 3 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 2
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2)Dr. P verbally belittles Data or treats him with contempt: 2
3) Dr. P acts and treats Data like some fancy shmancy tool device that needs to be put into its proper place.: 1.5
4) Dr. P acts racist towards Data:
5) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## KillianHawkeye

I like this episode. Data and Geordi as Holmes and Watson is just too perfect! And the guy playing Moriarty was great, too. Even Doctor Pulaski isn't too horrible in this one.

----------


## Peelee

> Even Doctor Pulaski isn't too horrible in this one.


It's a shame that this is an accurate statement about the character. At least some part of the Bones/Spock rivalry was that Spock understood exactly what was being said and could give as good as he got (often better). That's not there with Data, who is much more childlike.

----------


## russdm

Actually this is one of the few episodes that dr.p treats data with a degree of decency. Almost like a mentor of sorts similar to how Picard and Geordi act for Data and showing him human aspects.

Then we get the stuff that happens with the Stragatema (the weird strategy game) that happens.

To be honest, I think that dr.p should have been gone as being someone who didn't see Data as being anything more than a machine then learn how he is more and slowly begins to appreciate and treat him better and maybe goes a Q route and becomes a trickster mentor of sorts for Data.

Let the Bones Spock dynamics rest.

But the writers had to go and be stupid. I really want to blame for gene this but I don't think that Gene was the one who came up with using the bones spock dynamics. That was the writers and I think that Gene decided to just do nothing over things.

Of course it did give the doctor some interesting uses opposed to boring Crusher. TNG has the same problem that Babylon 5 has with dr. Franklin. Neither can figure out how to make their doctors interesting.

Well until b5's gropos and we get some characterization for Franklin and then he gets his walkabout and then goes to mars. It gave him something to do but he was fairly uninteresting before those. His time with Marcus and the drug addiction were interesting.

Crusher is basically tied to picard and wesley and has little else. Dr.p has no ties to picard and is older and has a different personality. Then there is Gene's rule on conflict which didn't mean that the writers couldn't have used plots. Investigating what happens on a planet with a special disease maybe.

Oh well. It's not like having a doctor on board would have allowed for interesting stories to tell for writers that could actually think some

----------


## Velaryon

I liked this episode for the most part, though it was not without its flaws. I felt like the setup was a little contrived with Data having to act a bit more obtuse than usual in order for Pulaski's criticisms to seem reasonable, and I'm not sure the computer should be _capable_ of creating a sentient Dr. Moriarty like that, but if you don't think too hard about it I guess it's fine.

I do consider this one of if not the most egregious episode in terms of Dr. Pulaski picking on Data, but she does at least learn from it. This should have been when the attempt at recreating the Spock/McCoy dynamic was laid to rest or at least allowed to evolve in a more different direction.





> Of course it did give the doctor some interesting uses opposed to boring Crusher. 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Crusher is basically tied to picard and wesley and has little else. Dr.p has no ties to picard and is older and has a different personality.


I never used to feel this way, but I actually kinda agree with this. I'm in early season 3 on my own TNG rewatch right now, and I find myself actually missing Dr. Pulaski and being rather bored with Dr. Crusher. I always liked Gates McFadden, but other than being Wesley's mom and an occasional romantic foil for Captain Picard (which they haven't really explored much at this point in the series) she doesn't have much going for her in terms of personality or storylines. At this point she barely has any more character development than Tasha did, if even that much.

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 4
The Outrageous Okona
Stardate: 42402.7

[Plot]
the crew are heading to a system when they have to go rescue a ship owned by Okona. Okona is a charmer, he tells jokes to Data, who doesn't get them. so data goes to guinan to learn about humor.

Okona charms a few female crewmembers then the leaders of the two planets show up and complain. to sum up, Okona helped the son and daughter of the two leaders have a relationship. that all ends up well.

the other part is data learning about humor and bad jokes.

[Rating]
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

{Episode Commentary}
so the comic who appears is joe priscopo and Okona is played by the runner up for Riker. the writers tried to make an expy of Han Solo as Okona but I have doubts about how that was what they were going for. Okona doesn't seem to have really much of anything like Han and most of the stuff ascribed to Okona is informed and not really true.

this is a break of what the writers thought was going across and what the audience was getting. the rest of the plot is basically a smash up of romeo and juliet. i would have gone with a lower score but the stuff with data elevates the episode for a score of 2 to a 3.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 3
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 3 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 2
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2)Dr. P verbally belittles Data or treats him with contempt: 2
3) Dr. P acts and treats Data like some fancy shmancy tool device that needs to be put into its proper place.: 1.5
4) Dr. P acts racist towards Data:
5) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## Ionathus

Okona had a cool costume, that's the only thing I truly remembered about this episode! "Data learns about human customs" was always varying quality depending on the writer, but I do think it worked more often than it didn't.




> Crusher is basically tied to picard and wesley and has little else. Dr.p has no ties to picard and is older and has a different personality. Then there is Gene's rule on conflict which didn't mean that the writers couldn't have used plots. Investigating what happens on a planet with a special disease maybe.
> 
> Oh well. It's not like having a doctor on board would have allowed for interesting stories to tell for writers that could actually think some


I agree that Dr. Crusher is not very distinct, but I find that I didn't really mind all that much. I appreciated how she was allowed to shine as a very competent doctor and leader of a team. She didn't have fits of passion or ever seem unreasonable, and she rarely made big flashy mistakes. I even appreciated how she was allowed to have ongoing romances even though our introduction to her was in the role of a mother, and nobody made a big deal of it. TNG was pretty touch-and-go for its handling of female characters, but that bit was nice. 

There's something about the "unremarkable, competent badass" character type that I like a lot, especially in a cast with as many personal woes as TNG (even if they're all incredibly reasonable people for the most part). 

Which is part of what galled me so much about Sub Rosa: Crusher had to be out of character _from the start_ for it to work (which it didn't anyway, but they certainly tried). I guess by season 7 the writers had run out of ways to do weird sex stuff to Troi.

----------


## Peelee

> "Data learns about human customs" was always varying quality depending on the writer, but I do think it worked more often than it didn't.


The "fish out of water, but for humans" is a standard Trek setpiece. Spock, Data, Odo, Neelix, they all have a "will I ever understand these crazy humans and their crazy humanisms" outlook for the audience.

Okona's shenanigans did _not_ age well.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Okona had a cool costume, that's the only thing I truly remembered about this episode!


Also really great hair!  :Small Amused:

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 5
Loud as a whisper
Stardate: 42477.2-42479.3

[Plot]
the crew have gone to pick up the diplomat, Riva. Riva is deaf but is tied telepathically with 3 individuals who are the scholar - a man, the warrior - a man, the balance - a woman. they are his chorus, speaking at different times based on Riva wishes to say.

the crew go to the warring planet so Riva can do his work. riva does do dinner with troi. on the planet, riva starts the meeting but the chorus are killed and then riva goes into despair.

data learns to understand sign language and so there is a bit of talk as troi works to get the negotiations going again and treat riva. Riva can teach them sign language as the two sides are learning about each other.

the crew leave as Picard thanks troi for her efforts.

[Rating]
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.

{Episode Commentary}
i thought this episode was pretty good, almost a 5, but there are some things that frustrate me. The scene with Dr. P talking with Geordi about his eyeballs and stuff feels out of place. Then there is the fact that Sign Language has become unknown somehow.

This annoys me. Given the number of people who knew sign language at the time (Also, the actor playing Riva is Deaf), I found it too unbelievable that Sign language, any of those languages, would have become so unknown. It almost suggests that you wouldn't find deaf people in the Federation.

Which is not something that sounds good to consider.

Data learns it quickly and is able to translate for Riva. It will take time for the others to do the same, and I can't help but wonder how that would go. It would make for a nice little story.

An interesting bit of story lore is that the Klingons didn't have a word for "Peacemaker". That is pretty interesting.

Then we have history in how Riva helped with negotiating between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. The exact pathway that led to the better relations goes through some variation, thanks to Star Trek 6 and some other episodes.

Personally, I think that there were probably multiple instances of talks beyond Star Trek 6, and that there would have been a need for further talks on different subjects, so Riva was probably involved. We also know that Curzon Dax was too, and probably Spock. After all, just the starting stuff in Star Trek 6 would also include further discussions on a range of matters probably.

The other part that I didn't like was the DR.P with Geordi. I don't know that we needed a scene about if Geordi could get replacement eyes. Especially with how DR.P is quick to suggest a replacement over Geordi's visor. Implants or actually repairing his system such that Geordi would be able to see, like what happens on Baku in the Star Trek Insurrections movie where Geordi's eyes regenerate.

Is this to suggest that the idea of people having traits like deafness or blindness things that the Federation no longer likes to accept in its citizens? That apparently there are no deaf members of the crew? That Picard doesn't know what Riva is doing and calls it "Gestural Language"? When there should a record about Sign Language, which Data learns from, that he could have looked over, after knowing that Riva is Deaf?

What is this saying about the Federation? No disabled people around? Or did the writers just have one of their flumphs and end up getting some basic bit of science/physics/history/etc wrong?

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 3
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 3 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 2
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2)Dr. P verbally belittles Data or treats him with contempt: 2
3) Dr. P acts and treats Data like some fancy shmancy tool device that needs to be put into its proper place.: 1.5
4) Dr. P acts racist towards Data:
5) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## Bohandas

> This annoys me. Given the number of people who knew sign language at the time (Also, the actor playing Riva is Deaf), I found it too unbelievable that Sign language, any of those languages, would have become so unknown. It almost suggests that you wouldn't find deaf people in the Federation.


Now I want to see the hearing aid version of the VISOR

----------


## The Glyphstone

> Now I want to see the hearing aid version of the VISOR


*Spoiler: Like this?*
Show

----------


## Peelee

> i thought this episode was pretty good, almost a 5, but there are some things that frustrate me. The scene with Dr. P talking with Geordi about his eyeballs and stuff feels out of place. Then there is the fact that Sign Language has become unknown somehow.
> 
> This annoys me. Given the number of people who knew sign language at the time (Also, the actor playing Riva is Deaf), I found it too unbelievable that Sign language, any of those languages, would have become so unknown. It almost suggests that you wouldn't find deaf people in the Federation.
> 
> Is this to suggest that the idea of people having traits like deafness or blindness things that the Federation no longer likes to accept in its citizens? That apparently there are no deaf members of the crew? That Picard doesn't know what Riva is doing and calls it "Gestural Language"? When there should a record about Sign Language, which Data learns from, that he could have looked over, after knowing that Riva is Deaf?


It's possible they cured congenital deafness and also developed other systems in place for developmental deafness which removed. Especially given the development of the universal translator*, which presumably would not work with gestural-based languages, and world unification favoring breaking down of language barriers. I don't see a huge issue with this.

*I have major issues with the universal translator.

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

> It's possible they cured congenital deafness


IIRC there's a Voyager episode where they mention being able to do some gene tweaking to prevent a spinal deformity, so this is likely.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Yeah, I feel like Geordi's blindness is meant to be a fairly unusual case of a person who has a handicap that isn't dealt with at birth and had to find a technological work around. Heck, even in Star Trek IV, Doctor McCoy is able to cure a kidney dialysis patient in like 20 minutes by giving her a pill from his medkit. Medical science in by the Next Gen is really just supposed to be THAT advanced that almost no one is handicapped anymore.

Technically, that's disability erasure, but it also is totally appropriate for a pro-science utopia 400 years in the future.

Anyway, considering the number of times that Geordi's VISOR technology was the key to saving the day (which I can probably count on one hand, but it's honestly amazing it happened more than once), everyone should be glad that he was born blind.

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 6
The Schizoid Man
Stardate: 42437.5-42437.7

[Plot]
the crew go to help one Ira graves who is dying, and also famous. he knew dr soong. he puts his mind in data before he dies. so data acts as graves does.

graves didn't realize how strong data is and then graves doesn't handle his feelings towards his assistant well.

picard talks with graves, things are solved.

The_Schizoid_Man_(episode) - if you want a full deal of the episode

[Rating]
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.

{Episode Commentary}
i don't like the character of ira graves for what he tries to do to data. that said there is some tremendously good acting by brent spiner portraying graves-in-data.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 3
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
Rank of Miles: Ensign
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 3 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 2
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2)Dr. P verbally belittles Data or treats him with contempt: 2
3) Dr. P acts and treats Data like some fancy shmancy tool device that needs to be put into its proper place.: 1.5
4) Dr. P acts racist towards Data:
5) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## hamishspence

> Yeah, I feel like Geordi's blindness is meant to be a fairly unusual case of a person who has a handicap that isn't dealt with at birth and had to find a technological work around.


TOS had another blind person (guest-starring) with a technological workaround (Miranda Jones, in the season 3 _Is There In Truth Now Beauty?_ episode)- that was basically akin to sonar, making it impossible for her to pilot a starship, since she couldn't see things that were _on viewscreens._

So there's already precedent for Geordi's situation.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

I like any episode where Brent Spiner gets to act with a different personality, because he's great at it.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Ionathus

> Then there is the fact that Sign Language has become unknown somehow.
> 
> This annoys me. Given the number of people who knew sign language at the time (Also, the actor playing Riva is Deaf), I found it too unbelievable that Sign language, any of those languages, would have become so unknown. It almost suggests that you wouldn't find deaf people in the Federation.
> 
> Which is not something that sounds good to consider.


As KillianHawkeye and Peelee said, it's likely that deafness is extremely uncommon due to utopian improvements in medical tech. Without sparking a real-world politics debate, I'd guess that some members of the Deaf community didn't/don't like the implications of that presentation. 

I watched this episode several years ago, before my first (very enlightening) personal interaction with the Deaf community. I only remember snippets ("Speak directly to me!" is a really good scene in this episode, reinforcing how Deaf people also want to be spoken to rather than through their translator), but I felt like they came through pretty well and did the concept justice. 

Between this and _Children of a Lesser God_ being released within a year or two of each other, was there a big push for discussing Deaf issues in the 80s that I'm too young to know about?

----------


## Bohandas

> Season 2 Episode 5It almost suggests that you wouldn't find deaf people in the Federation.
> 
> Which is not something that sounds good to consider.


Are you implying that the federation is purging the disabled? That sounds more like the evil parallel universe version of the federation from _Mirror Mirror_

I'm pretty sure the main federation just has super advanced medicine

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 7
Unnatural Selection
Stardate: 42494.8

[Plot]
the crew are heading to space station india for some important thing. Picard discusses Dr.P and then the crew receive a distress call from the USS Lantree. Going to that ship, they discover that the crew has aged rapidly and died. The crew set the Lantree to send out a quarantine warning. While they go to investigate what happened after the crew visited "Darwin Research Center".

The crew head to the research center where they discover some experiments of a genetic nature to improve humans. The scientists at the research center treated a member of the Lantree crew for a disease. Then, the research center scientists then had tweaked some children to make them telepathic and telekinetic and other improvements. the scientists at the research center have been experiencing rapid aging as well. They blame the Lantree.

It turns out that the research scientists also included putting in some advanced or better human body immune system. Which is highly aggressive that also attacks various viruses and anything at all. Which is what happened when the Lantree was treated with a disease. That ended up causing the problems.

So, Dr.P has found out this, and then the crew work to lower her age back to normal. That takes some work, but Chief Miles O'Brien had an idea. With help from Picard, Miles works to come up with the working solution. The crew are able to do that. Miles beams up the Doctor and makes the attempt, which works.

The crew head back to the Lantree and proceed to destroy it so no other ship will be affected by what happened.

[Rating]
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.
&
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

{Episode Commentary}
The second rating is solely on the special effects to show the aging on Dr.P which is tremendously bad looking. The other characters with the aging special effects, the people at the Darwin Research Center, are all older slightly and the special effects are less "gorny". Dr.P looks like as she aged that someone stretched her face out and added in some fat pockets. It just looks terrible, not the least bit realistic. Then with Dr.P being a main character, it means we get some serious looks at the terrible makeup choices. Some people are age nicely when they get older, and it is possible that Dr.P could have been one of those.

The makeup effects are just about as bad for Dr.P as for what happened with Admiral Jameson last season. Just considerably bad. It just looks completely bizarre and really terrible. Even worse, because they (Crew/Production) made the casting choices to make the Darwin Research Center Scientists older and with less un-realistic looking age effects, it just makes it more noticeable for Dr.P. So while everyone else affected by the aging don't look that bad in their appearance, Dr.P ends up with big honking "Old fat person" makeup. 

Aside from the above bad special effects, the rest of the plot works fairly well. It is mainly about the unintended side effects and dangers of experimenting with human beings. Like the augments, which were Khan and friends. In this case, the scientists made their kids a little dangerous.

Considering that later material would make it clear that genetic experimentation and manipulation are things illegal in the Federation, it kinda ruins some of the plot here. That being how the actions taken at the Darwin research center are illegal under later material. Which is bit of a funny thing.

So, the main issue was that the kids' were given a better immune system. that makes it difficult for them to ever leave the center, since they are basically plague bearers. They can't live with anybody else because their immune system will end up attacking the others around them without it. It is not something that the research center scientists considered, and while the beaming solution works, it is only a temporary fix.

The solution of using a transporter means that you would have to set up everyone and everything to constantly being beamed up and down again when one of the Darwin kids are anywhere not in their controlled environment. So, basically have made them completely unsafe for anybody around.

This, along with the Augments, are pretty clear cases for why tampering with Human Genetics or whatever, are dangerous. There was no intention to make it so the Lantree crew died, but that is the result, and the scientists were actually working against trying to have that. But, it still happened. So, they, the scientists, won't be able to do much really, and have some difficulty with their kids. Then, the kids are going to be basically stuck at Darwin for their lives, at least until a fix can made that doesn't have their immune systems attacking others.

Dr.P had a brush with death, and while it makes her be a little mean to Data, given the situation, I won't hold it against her. It will only add a few in, and it is all on the shuttle craft while Dr.P is dealing with one of the Darwin kids and doing examinations. That makes me give her a pass in this episode, especially since it is the only moments that she is and she is more going on about her mortality and Data's near immortality. Her comments are not intended to hurt in my opinion, or more accurately, she is not facing her own death in a short time. I think  we can cut her some slack.

Miles: So, Miles gets a name, has two gold pips, and addressed as being the Transporter Chief. He has gone from a bit person to a recurring cast member and we will get to see him some more. That is pretty good.

So, the next episode, is another one of the best episodes, another hidden gem, in my opinion.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 3
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips (Is this Lt.?)
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 3 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 2
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2)Dr. P verbally belittles Data or treats him with contempt: 2
3) Dr. P acts and treats Data like some fancy shmancy tool device that needs to be put into its proper place.: 1.5
4) Dr. P acts racist towards Data:
5) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## DavidSh

Star Trek has a history of bad aging effects.  Did they ever pull it off well?

----------


## Ionathus

> Star Trek has a history of bad aging effects.  Did they ever pull it off well?


*Spoiler: later TNG episodes*
Show

I thought old Noonien Soong was done pretty well. Took me awhile to catch on that it was Brent Spiner too!

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> *Spoiler: later TNG episodes*
> Show
> 
> I thought old Noonien Soong was done pretty well. Took me awhile to catch on that it was Brent Spiner too!


Well sure when the aging makeup is make the actor appear as a different person. Otherwise its always over the top.

----------


## Ionathus

> Well sure when the aging makeup is make the actor appear as a different person. Otherwise its always over the top.


Of course it's going to seem over the top if done to an established character. It's the same reason my friend's kid can get scared of him if he shaves his beard off: you get used to a person's face being a certain way, and a significant change is going to be jarring.

A new character with aging makeup is the only version of their face we know, and doesn't have that disadvantage.

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> Of course it's going to seem over the top if done to an established character. It's the same reason my friend's kid can get scared of him if he shaves his beard off: you get used to a person's face being a certain way, and a significant change is going to be jarring.
> 
> A new character with aging makeup is the only version of their face we know, and doesn't have that disadvantage.


What I mean by over the top is this, its often cartoonistly exaggerated, the philosophy seems to be melt their face. 
DeForest Kelley made a cameo as a 137 year old Bones during Encounter at Far Point. And they managed to make him look really old without melting his face.

----------


## Ionathus

> What I mean by over the top is this, its often cartoonistly exaggerated, the philosophy seems to be melt their face. 
> DeForest Kelley made a cameo as a 137 year old Bones during Encounter at Far Point. And they managed to make him look really old without melting his face.





> Well sure when the aging makeup is make the actor appear as a different person. Otherwise its always over the top.


I thought you were saying TNG aging makeup effects were only bad on recognizable, familiar characters, but your reference to DeForest Kelley would also count as a familiar character, right? 

If you disliked Dr. P's makeup in particular, I don't disagree. It just seemed like you were talking about aging makeup in TNG more broadly.

----------


## russdm

> If you disliked Dr. P's makeup in particular, I don't disagree. It just seemed like you were talking about aging makeup in TNG more broadly.


I am personally referring to Dr. P's makeup myself. It is pretty bad. It smashes/smushes her face out and stretches it out slightly. It doesn't look like how you would expect the actress to go on aging. Like Admiral Jameson it is pretty bad. The same with using an actor for wesley that doesn't work either earlier.

In the Inner Light (the kataan episode, whichever episode that is) Picard gets older and they have good aging makeup. In the series finale, they give Picard and the other cast members good aging makeup. In the 4th season of DS9 with aged up crew (the one with Sisko ends up in that white place and Jake gets older), they do a good job.

But Dr. P is bad makeup. When we meet oldSoong, they get good makeup. But yet we don't get good makeup for Dr. P. Which is just plain awful.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Wow, it's almost as if they got better at it as they went along!  :Small Sigh:

----------


## Peelee

Two questions. 

First, the trackers are longer that the summary, review, and thoughts at this point. And most of them are pretty low. Are all of them really?

Second, what's up with only ever saying "Dr. P" instead of just using her name?

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Second, what's up with only ever saying "Dr. P" instead of just using her name?


My guess is not everyone can spell Pulaski.  :Small Amused:

----------


## The Glyphstone

> Two questions. 
> 
> First, the trackers are longer that the summary, review, and thoughts at this point. And most of them are pretty low. Are all of them really?
> 
> Second, what's up with only ever saying "Dr. P" instead of just using her name?


We had more trackers than episodes at one point, and now they're only slightly behind.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> Two questions. 
> 
> First, the trackers are longer that the summary, review, and thoughts at this point. And most of them are pretty low. Are all of them really?
> 
> Second, what's up with only ever saying "Dr. P" instead of just using her name?


It's almost as if he doesn't like the character. He'll be calling Wesley Crusher by his initials next. _(Actually, that would probably be a bigger insult, at least in this country... I'm not sure even Wesley deserves that!)_

Really, the trackers aren't adding anything to the process in the first place, and adding five simply to denegrate Dr Pulaski just looks petty. I don't bother reading them.

----------


## russdm

> Two questions. 
> 
> First, the trackers are longer that the summary, review, and thoughts at this point. And most of them are pretty low. Are all of them really?
> 
> Second, what's up with only ever saying "Dr. P" instead of just using her name?


Think of the issues being how much there is to say. Not all of the recent episodes have left a strong impression, one of finding things to say. Like some episodes have been just "meh" (3 in rating).
I can include links to the Memory Alpha and TVTropes recaps of Episodes. For the Summaries.

As for small reviews/thoughts, well, we are still in the early season here. It is season 2, early parts, and the "Riker's Beard" has not fallen into it's full stride of effects.

As for Dr. Pulaski, I was not sure if I could remember her correctly all of the time.

As for the Trackers, Well, I would have to say that some of them are not just firing yet. Plus, If you feel that I have missed one, then feel free to add it in. I will adjust the trackers to reflect.




> My guess is not everyone can spell Pulaski.


Well, I don't always remember her name correctly, for some reason. Is it Pulaski? Pulaksi? Pulsaki? Plakksi? I just use Dr. P  for when I struggle to recall her name correctly. That should be fixed for later episodes.




> We had more trackers than episodes at one point, and now they're only slightly behind.


I have been trying to limit adding more unless it becomes clear something should happen, or something that means I need to add a tracker.




> It's almost as if he doesn't like the character. He'll be calling Wesley Crusher by his initials next. _(Actually, that would probably be a bigger insult, at least in this country... I'm not sure even Wesley deserves that!)_
> 
> Really, the trackers aren't adding anything to the process in the first place, and adding five simply to denegrate Dr Pulaski just looks petty. I don't bother reading them.


I think that Wesley is a decent character, once you get past the "Creator's Pet" parts. It just happens to really full-heavy in the start of the show. The best episodes for Wesley are: Sins of the Father, The First Duty, The Icarus Factor, Family. I would say that Wesley improved when the writers moved away from the "Creator's Pet" aspect, because Wesley really shines.

To be honest, I think that Dr. P(ulaski) is the better of the Doctor characters. There are a number of reasons for that, and I included the trackers about Data because it becomes a thing thanks to the Writers.

Why Doctor Pulaski is better than Dr. Crusher))

1) No Ties to Picard: Doctor Pulaski has ties to Picard. She is not a friend of a friend to Picard, or someone that has any previous history with him. She has had her own life, completely unaffected by Picard or Picard's actions.

2) She doesn't Know Data any: This is key because it falls into what her character arc could have been - Not knowing Data meant we could have got exploration of how those who have know little to nothing about Data view him, and Crucial - Are those views changing. That combined with a bit - her years of life/experience - meant she could move into being another mentor for Data like how Picard grows into.

3) Unlike Crusher, she is not defined by having a kid: One of the main points about Crusher is that she is Wesley's mom. That makes her have less other plots. It is a little tragic that Beverly gets plot events only after Wesley is gone. It would be nicer to have the writers move beyond momBeverly, but it took them a while.

4) She doesn't immediately accept Data: I think that many members of Starfleet would have problems with Data, and Doctor Pulaski is a good representation of that feeling. It would allow (Had the writers followed it) for showing how Starfleet is getting used to Data.

Things that went wrong with Doctor Pulaski:

1) Her Dynamic with Data: I think that the writers made a series of key errors with Doctor Pulaski. The main one was with the character dynamic that they made. I can get behind how Doctor Pulaski has struggles to see Data as  sentient and deserving of respect, and her not knowing what to make of him. Because that reflects a very human understanding of how people would feel.

What happened though is that Data became a break-out start like Spock and so the writers wanted to milk that connection - Data As Spock. So they incorporated a dynamic for a Bones Character. With the other characters are established - Picard as Mentor/Geordi as Friend/Others having Respect - the writers didn't have a character that they could move the Bones element to without it being forced. So they gave it to Doctor Pulaski.

2) Her first introduction: Doctor Pulaski didn't have a great showing in her first appearance with her actions toward Picard and Data. Both show varying lack of respect, and with Data a break-out character, and Picard the Captain, that part just hurt the character

3) They (the writers) abandoned a good character development in favor of Bones-Spock dynamic: In the episode "Unnatural Selection", we have Data and Doctor Pulaski working together. It (her facing her death) causes to get thawed out from her original IceQueen part persona and she starts treating better through the Episode, along with the others. The part for the others will remain, but she (thanks to the Writers) takes a step back from the better treatment towards Data, and moves into the Bones-Spock Dynamic with Data.

That Dynamic was a bad idea, and I think that it should not have been pursued. The writers should have figured out that Data lacked what made Spock work in the Bones-Spock Dynamic, and that it meant that the dynamic wouldn't work. As a result, Doctor Pulaski comes across more, or was made through the Bones-Spock dynamic, as just bullying Data. It didn't help her character any.

The Writers figured out there were problems with what they did, but by the time that happened, it was too late to salvage anything. Not enough to save the character. So, we lost something that could have been interesting to get Beverly Crusher back.

Some of Doctor Pulaski's best scenes in the season to come are: Her interactions with Riker's Father, Her actions leading to the Tea Scene with Worf, Her actions in Peak Performance and how she deals with the mess she made there. I think that might be others too, just have to get to them.

----------


## Peelee

That's a really good breakdown! But I think there's a little overload on the trackers, even if we're still relatively early in the show. Most of the Pulaski-Data ones could be combined as "Pulaski mistreat Data" or something similar. Specifically, the first four, though I really like the fifth as it's own thing. That just may be me, though, as I _do_ have a rather noted dislike for Pulaski. And I suspect it's because of the missed opportunities that you put do well.

----------


## russdm

> That's a really good breakdown! But I think there's a little overload on the trackers, even if we're still relatively early in the show. Most of the Pulaski-Data ones could be combined as "Pulaski mistreat Data" or something similar. Specifically, the first four, though I really like the fifth as it's own thing. That just may be me, though, as I _do_ have a rather noted dislike for Pulaski. And I suspect it's because of the missed opportunities that you put do well.


Well, I can always remove trackers and modify them as suggested by You, the Playgrounders. Not a problem for me.

Yeah, I would say that nearly all of the Fan Dislike towards Doctor Pulaski really stems from how poorly the Writers managed the characters. Doctor Pulaski was, according to Memory Alpha stuff & TVTropes stuff, was written to be somewhat like Bones. So, a curmedgeonly country Doctor. Which works, I think in my opinion.

What doesn't work was deciding that since she was written to be like Bones, that putting her in place of Bones in a redux of the Bones-Spock Dynamic was going to work. Data is very not Spock, which in turn shifts the dynamic significantly so. It makes the dynamic more of A Bones interacting with a Mentally Handicapped in Various Ways Spock (Which is what Data is, really) and that dynamic comes more across as petty bullying on Doctor Pulaski's part.

That ruined the character in many fans' eyes, and when the writers caught on to what happened, they did try to fix it, but at the point, they had already done the damage and it would have required more salvaging then they could get before the end of the season. That I think made it easy for fans to simply not like her more. Adding in her treatment of Data, which was solely the blame of the Writers and Gene (depending on how much he knew about or could have fixed the problems before the problems ran down the road so far)

I think that knowing about the Behind the Scenes steps helps, because it does explain where some things went very wrong. And especially in areas that could have definitely improved had the writers picked up earlier.

So, for explaining this, I am going to spoil an episode for later in the season, Peak Performance, which shows how  Doctor Pulaski could have worked --

In Peak Performance, one of the last episodes in the second season, The crew pick up an advisor that comes from a race of Strategetists, the Zakdorn. The one the crew picks up is a famous one, and named K-something. K-Something plays a game called Strategamo/Strategema/Strateg-Something that Doctor Pulaski prods Data into competing with K-Something over. Data does well up to a point, where Data Promptly loses. Data then ends up going through an existential crisis about whether he is obselete and old/worn-out and such. He gets into a real funk and depression.

Geordi tries to help along with Picard, I think, but in the end, it ends up being Doctor Pulaski who has to go and speak to Data and clean the mess up. That ends Data's existential problem, and he goes and plays K-Something again, and either puts the game into a draw or wins.

Data learns important things about being human, Doctor Pulaski treats Data as a real "boy", and It all ends well.

That is probably some of the best character interaction between Doctor Pulaski and Data. It came at the near end of the second season though. Which is a disappointment.

----------


## Bohandas

One could also argue that they actually were writing Data poorly. If they wanted him to be Spock then maybe they shouldn't have written him as the Tin Man

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> To be honest, I think that Dr. P(ulaski) is the better of the Doctor characters. There are a number of reasons for that, and I included the trackers about Data because it becomes a thing thanks to the Writers.
> 
> Why Doctor Pulaski is better than Dr. Crusher))
> 
> ...


An excelent piece of analysis. This is why I am following this thread.




> Geordi tries to help along with Picard, I think, but in the end, it ends up being Doctor Pulaski who has to go and speak to Data and clean the mess up. That ends Data's existential problem, and he goes and plays K-Something again, and either puts the game into a draw or wins.


I think you are misremembering - it is Picard who ends the problem (by ordering Data back to work, and then explaining that you can do everything right, and still lose - which also gives Data his strategy for the rematch). Still, we'll see when you get to it.

But yes, Dr Pulaski does treat Data a lot better in this episode.

----------


## russdm

> I think you are misremembering - it is Picard who ends the problem (by ordering Data back to work, and then explaining that you can do everything right, and still lose - which also gives Data his strategy for the rematch). Still, we'll see when you get to it.
> 
> But yes, Dr Pulaski does treat Data a lot better in this episode.


Yes, I remembered that part wrong, but She does make the effort to fix the problem. Whereas before, she would have just ignored what her actions caused and be dismissive. Picard may have ordered Data gotten back to work, but Dr. Pulaski still takes the time to try to explain to Data in ways to help him. It doesn't work out, since Picard has to do it, but the fact that the effort was made shows a significant thing.

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 8
A Matter of Honor
Stardate: 42506.5

[Plot]
the crew have arrived at starbase 179 to get some new X-Shirts (goldshirts, blueshirts, redshirts, greenshirts, etc) and pick up a benzarite. ( a different character played by the same guy as pled Mordock - due to having the face sculpt from before so it was done to save money)

Picard discusses with Riker about a special assignment while doing a phaser target game. it's for an officer exchange program and so Riker will be boarding a Klingon ship. that ship is the Pagh

Riker asks Worf about Klingon traditional ways. So, according to Worf, the first officer is to "assassinate" the captain if the captain becomes weak or unable to perform {Clarified in Deep Space 9 to be "cowardce, dereliction of duty, some other things that I can't remember). Riker has a going away meal filled with Klingon food

which ends up weirding out Picard and Dr. Pulaski ; also Riker picked the more palatable of Klingon dishes

our benzarite, mendon, discovers some stuff on the hull of the Klingon ship, but doesn't report anything yet. Worf gives Riker an emergency transponder.

Riker goes on the Klingon ship. He speaks with the captain Kargan. Klag, another Klingon doesn't believe something that Riker says, so Riker goes into fisticuffs. Having thrashed Klag, Riker gets Klag to recognize his authority.

Later Riker is in the mess hall and learns that Gagh is live. Eaten Live. He gets teased about being squirmish about this fact. Then He gets to hit on by one of the Klingon women, with one of them stating that She will back for him. Riker asks if that was serious and is told, yes. He takes a drink.

Riker talks with Klag about differences and sameness between humans and Klingons. We learn that Klag's father was taken captive and returned and just waits to die. Riker thinks Klag should pay a visit (Worth noting here that Riker is estranged from his own father, a moment/thing brought up in a later episode)

Riker is brought to Captain Kargan to explain about the scanning that the Enterprise did. Naturally, he doesn't know and Kargan takes what happened as an attack. Kargan decides to take some kind of action.

Of course, Mendon is still busy with things, and there is the issue of the space bacteria, and it coming to the attention of the crew and that Mendon didn't do proper procedure etc. Wesley tells him not to worry any about that. (It is a little bit of a thing)

While Riker is absent, Kargan and Klag discuss matters, and Kargan naturally jumps to conclusions. With the Enterprise going off to help the Klingon Ship with the bacteria, Kargan decides it all means an attack. Klag earlier didn't think it was realistic that it is an attack (the bacteria part) Riker questions that also.

Kargan demands to know ways of damaging or fighting the ship better. Riker refuses. Kargan says some spiel about not trusting Riker if he told him. (I think that it feels off, like Kargan is suddenly back-pedaling here, having to come up with a quick declaration when He didn't get the information he wanted)

A solution for the Space Bacteria is found. Naturally it gets added to the message the Enterprise is sending out. Kargan continues to decide that the whole thing is an attack. So, then with the Enterprise not knowing what is going on with the Pagh, it goes to red alert.

Kargan ends up deciding, despite Riker giving him a reason that makes sense, to prepare to attack the Enterprise. Given the somewhat delusional and a bit stupid of How Kargan is being, Riker arranges for Kargan to get beamed off when the Klingon Ship decloaks. And take command of the ship. That happens with the emergency transponder.

Kargan ends up on the Bridge and decides to attack. Worf shoots him. Riker then drops the cloak and gets all armed for fighting. He tells the other Klingon besides Klag that he will fight alongside the Klingons. He also demands that the Enterprise surrender. Which Picard is more than willing to do.

The Space Bacteria problem is fixed, and Riker arranges for giving Kargan a nice little Face-Saving display. Klag says that he thinks Riker understands the Klingons better. Kargan, having been made a total fool/tool, kicks Riker off his ship.

Riker returns to the Enterprise afterwards, speaking to Worf about his people some. Then the Enterprise heads off to its next destination.

[Rating]
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on

{Episode Commentary}
i have always loved the Klingons and this is our first Klingon episode to explore and show what they are like. it is pretty good in my opinion, the plot of riker going on board. the rest is mostly for explaining the problem and what is going on with it. that works fine.

all in all this is a good episode if you like what is going on with the Klingons. if you don't like those changes then you are going to not like this episode any.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 3
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 3 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 2
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## DigoDragon

Long time lurker, first time poster in this thread. ^^ 
I liked this episode a lot; it really shows off Riker's cunning and ability to take charge (or seize it as it were) when needed. 

Klingon cuisine reminds me of this documentary I watched some years back how early interplanetary travel for us would benefit with having insect farms on ships as a steady food source. XD

----------


## Ionathus

I remember really liking Riker's tense scenes aboard the Klingon ship. There were some really good bits where the storytelling makes it clear that Klingon culture is extremely different, without making them seem like everyday wacky aliens. The interactions showed a good bit of depth, and Riker really had to maneuver carefully at times if I recall. 

This episode is fun to think about, given the ensuing Klingon subplots that ran throughout TNG and how it set us up to understand a lot of them.

I feel like I wasn't as keen on the central conflict of the episode -- something about the justifications didn't add completely up and pieces of the plot felt a little like "we need to do X now so the characters are just going to roll with it until that happens," but all in all the atmosphere of the Klingon ship (both in set decoration and in acting from the Klingon cast) more than made up for it.




> I think that Wesley is a decent character, once you get past the "Creator's Pet" parts. It just happens to really full-heavy in the start of the show. The best episodes for Wesley are: Sins of the Father, The First Duty, The Icarus Factor, Family. I would say that Wesley improved when the writers moved away from the "Creator's Pet" aspect, because Wesley really shines.


I know Wesley was also included as a kid appeal character, but it's hard to make a child interesting or relevant on a starship without making them super smart or competent. So Wesley kind of wound up as undeservedly smart and Marty Stu-esque, just by virtue of needing to punch above his weight class so he could be in conversations with Senior Bridge Staff. Doesn't make it a good decision, but I can see the logic there.

Interestingly, Louise Erdrich's _The Round House_ centers around an Ojibwe teenager growing up during TNG's run, and the narrator mentions how he and his friends knew that Wesley was _supposed_ to be the character they identified with, but how they all latched on to Worf instead. Not really super relevant, just a fun detail in a book that's arguing something I also agree with: _you don't need to put a kid in a show to get kids to watch it_. Kids will see themselves in anyone as long as their personalities or ideals align.

----------


## Gnoman

My favorite part of this episode was the food. Riker goes out of his way to prepare, only to get caught out by a minor detail that the computer forgot to mention. So we get a chance to see Riker have to pick up from aa stumble. which he does fairly well.

----------


## Velaryon

I agree this was a good episode (although I didn't particularly care for the Benzite). I also like your more detailed episode summary.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> My favorite part of this episode was the food. Riker goes out of his way to prepare, only to get caught out by a minor detail that the computer forgot to mention. So we get a chance to see Riker have to pick up from aa stumble. which he does fairly well.


Likewise - in fact Riker is admirable in this episode alltogether. In fact Mendon and Riker give an interesting set of opposed views on working within a foreign environment and/or culture - one working exactly as they would before, and the other adapting to match the environment he is in.

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 9
The Measure Of A Man
Stardate: 42523.7

[Plot]
So, the crew arrive at starbase 173 for stuff. Some of the crew join in to do some poker playing. Riker is able to Bluff Data into folding. Data is curious.

On the starbase, Picard meets an old flame, Phillippa Louvis. She was the prosecution agaisnt Picard when he lost the stargazer and carried out the court martial trial. Picard didn't lose his captaincy, but the action soured relations between them and so there is a stiffness in their interactions.

The Admiral of the starbase shows up and visits the Enterprise. He brings along one Commander Bruce Maddox, who works in Robotics/Cybernetics. Maddox is going to dissemble Data.

Upon learning further about Maddox and the procedures, it is made clear that Maddox is not fully capable, and there is a chance that the procedure will result in Data's death. Data doesn't want that, so refuses to go along. Data resigns his commission. Data packs his belongings and has a farewell party in Ten Forward.

Maddox challenges and it turns out that Starfleet considers Data property. Maddox also opposed Data joining Starfleet. Picard insists that matters be stopped, but Captain Louvis is having none of it. Picard must defend Data, with Riker in opposition.

Riker studies about Data for the hearing. It will be held later.

The hearing is held, and Riker makes a very impressive and very convincing case against Data. Picard is left shaken. He asks for a recess. He talks with Guinan in ten forward some.

Picard makes a new argument and reveals some things about Data. Picard then challenges Maddox about a number of things, especially on how Maddox defines Sentience. Maddox is made to be embarrassed. Using his talk with Guinan, Picard brings up how Maddox will be creating a race of Datas, that will be essentially property or slaves. Picard then challenges how that will make the Federation. And mentions that Data is "new life".

Captain Louvis ends up ruling that Data has rights. Data refuses to undergo the procedure but encourages Maddox. Maddox, who was calling Data "it", refers to Data as "He".

The crew have a celebration, but Riker decides to stay away. Data comes to bring him and explains that He is grateful for that Riker did what he did since without it Louvis would have just ruled against him. Riker is impressed. They go to the celebration.

[Rating]
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on
&
1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore) - For Reasons

{Episode Commentary}
So, this is both an amazing episode and really great and one of the very best episodes. In many ways however, it happens to be one of the worst episodes too. There are a few reasons why.

1) This episode covers something that should have been done long before this. I can't believe that since Data's discovery that an attempt by Starfleet to have someone like Maddox do what he wanted has not come up yet before. It just feels like it should have come up way earlier and examined and determined. For it to have lasted this long before anyone considered doing the procedure that Maddox was thinking just boggles my mind.

When Data applied to join Starfleet, shouldn't questions of his sentience have been determined? Questions about his rights and what, if any, rights he had? Why did Starfleet not apply those details in any way? Why was that never specified or viewed or made? Clearly there was support for Data to Join Starfleet, and Data had a career and  was awarded some medals. Are we really supposed to believe that it is just didn't come up before?

2) Lore -- During this episode when Maddox was talking about what could happen with Data, I kept thinking about how there was another android that could have been used. Lore, Data's brother. Nobody even mentions the idea of employing Lore in this way. Lore gets completely forgotten about. I know that using Lore would probably or possibility ending up not turning out well, but no suggestion is made.

3) From what is made in the story, apparently no one has any information or details to follow up on. Apparently, nothing of Dr. Soong's notes survived. There appears to be almost no information of how Dr. Soong built Lore or Data, or anything to help others. Maddox is supposed to be the closest in general (passing even the guy from the past episode that taught Dr. Soong everything) and Maddox is far from making a working positronic brain. Yet, Starfleet is willing to allow Maddox is dissemble Data despite evidence that he just doesn't know if it will work. Was the entire archives of Dr. Soong's work that the Doctor had to have in his lab just lost?

So the above are things that make think this is a terrible episode. Mainly it is how the matter here has simply never come up yet, somehow. I personally feel that it should have come up.

So, the things that make it great:

1) Character -- Picard & Data & Riker all get great characterizition and moments. Watching Riker smile when he thinks has some things to use against Data and then him realizing/remembering that he is prosecuting Data is a great scene. The entire interplay with Picard and Captain Louvis was really great. Then Data has some really strong moments. And Pulaski is really friendly and great in this episode too.

2) Data's Possessions -- One thing that is great here, is seeing what things that Data values most. His collection of Medals, a book from Picard, his object for memorializing Tasha. All those really show a strong heart to Data, and is just really great.

3) Picard's speech -- The entire speech about the Race of Datas and what it would mean, really sells, really well. It is probably Picard's greatest Speech in the series, or at least that I see so far.

Also, since it is a thing later, I have to add a tracker for the cast playing poker, which they will do, a lot.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Poker Playing: 1
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 3
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## hamishspence

> 2) Lore -- During this episode when Maddox was talking about what could happen with Data, I kept thinking about how there was another android that could have been used. Lore, Data's brother. Nobody even mentions the idea of employing Lore in this way. Lore gets completely forgotten about. I know that using Lore would probably or possibility ending up not turning out well, but no suggestion is made.


Lore was _unavailable_ for any of this sort of thing, because Data Wesley beamed him into space near the Crystalline Entity, and he was not seen again for a long time.

----------


## Seppl

> Lore was _unavailable_ for any of this sort of thing, because Data beamed him into space near the Crystalline Entity, and he was not seen again for a long time.


Which, realistically, would place Lore drifting in a very small area of space that any Federation ship could scan in seconds. But, unrealistically, space is an ocean in Star Trek and we are to take this as if Lore was lost at the bottom of the Pacific.

----------


## hamishspence

I thought the Crystalline Entity had taken Lore with it for a while, and then dumped him somewhere (with some Pakleds picking him up later). (Also, it turns out Wesley did the actual beaming itself, so I've fixed that).

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> Season 2 Episode 9
> The Measure Of A Man
> When Data applied to join Starfleet, shouldn't questions of his sentience have been determined? Questions about his rights and what, if any, rights he had? Why did Starfleet not apply those details in any way? Why was that never specified or viewed or made? Clearly there was support for Data to Join Starfleet, and Data had a career and  was awarded some medals. Are we really supposed to believe that it is just didn't come up before?


We give medals and ranks to Dogs that serve the military. So giving them to a really sophisticated machine isn't out of the question.
And in the episode its stated that Maddox actually opposed Data's petition to join star-fleet. He'd argue that because Data was found by Starfleet and his creator is presumed dead he's the property of starfleet. His argument is that Data isn't truly alive and thus not deserving of rights.




> Season 2 Episode 9
> The Measure Of A Man
> 2) Lore -- During this episode when Maddox was talking about what could happen with Data, I kept thinking about how there was another android that could have been used. Lore, Data's brother. Nobody even mentions the idea of employing Lore in this way. Lore gets completely forgotten about. I know that using Lore would probably or possibility ending up not turning out well, but no suggestion is made.


 Well aside from the fact that Lore is lost in space. Lore is exceedingly dangerous and not mentally stable. So replicating him might not be the best move, 'hey lets copy the brain of the homicidal  android'
Using Lore means you either treat him as property(in which case Data is also property). Or you condone performing the equivalent of medical experiments on prisoners. 




> Season 2 Episode 9
> The Measure Of A Man
> 3) From what is made in the story, apparently no one has any information or details to follow up on. Apparently, nothing of Dr. Soong's notes survived.


 He was a recluse and very protective of his work he'd have deliberately left nothing behind but Data for people to follow up on. And he only left Data behind because there wasn't room on the escape pod.

----------


## russdm

> Well aside from the fact that Lore is lost in space. Lore is exceedingly dangerous and not mentally stable. So replicating him might not be the best move, 'hey lets copy the brain of the homicidal  android'
> Using Lore means you either treat him as property(in which case Data is also property). Or you condone performing the equivalent of medical experiments on prisoners.


well i did say that it could or would end badly. but it has the kind of feel of sheer crazy that starfleet seems to get up to.

frankly i was expecting for Lore to come up over the dangers of making androids like Data. what if Maddox were to end up accidentally make them like Lore? that doesn't sound good and I think that it is a strong argument for defending Data in my opinion.

Lore was crazy and had his traits, but Lore was a prototype before Data, possibly suggesting something that Maddox could create without meaning too. plus I think it would have affected how the arguments went and it challenged that Data was truly unique.

the reference for Lore comes from some of the tvtropes stuff for the episode along with whether it would have been easy or not for Maddox to arrange for a ship to try to find Lore. after all, Lore was left floating in space. given how maddox views data as a machine that maddox could make a faulty judgment call and go after Lore; maybe interact with Lore

plus the suggestion could have explored how data would feel about Lore, in general.

but meh; more about Lore being not brought up as it could have explored over how desperate if any would maddox be, would he risk using Lore, would data have feelings or opinions about the idea, how would it affect how data would be viewed knowing about Lore. Would Picard be as willing to defend Lore as he is for data?

Seems like the writers just forgot about Lore. Which is a little bit not great.

Still the parts of question exist but that doesn't mean the episode is still really great. Definitely one of the best episodes of the season

----------


## DigoDragon

Measure of a Man is probably one of those pretty good episodes I always forget. The characters carry it, because I agree that such a trial should have been conducted long ago when Data first signed up to Starfleet. But other than that, I don't have much quibble.

Was this the first mention of the Stargazer?

----------


## Bohandas

> Which, realistically, would place Lore drifting in a very small area of space that any Federation ship could scan in seconds. But, unrealistically, space is an ocean in Star Trek and we are to take this as if Lore was lost at the bottom of the Pacific.


you've got your realistic and unrealistic swapped there

----------


## russdm

> Was this the first mention of the Stargazer?


No, the Stargazer shows up in the episode of the first season, "the battle ", and it gets mentioned a number of times. It is Picard's first command and only other command than the Enterprise from what the canon says, and according to Q in "Tapestry ", another great episode, that Picard took command after a couple of the senior officers to him where put out of action.

As for your post that I didn't quote here, it is just jarring that after Data's 27 years of Starfleet service that it is coming up. There was only the time when Data applied to Starfleet and maddox voted against Data, which would make Maddox have to be way older than he is, but it didn't come up during Data's service of someone who wanted to dissemble him.

So it (the above concerns) just wreck the episode in a way because I couldn't stop wondering how it had taken so long to come up. But if you can shut that complaint off for the episode, the episode is extremely good.

I was almost going to consider this episode one of the hidden gems, the very best episodes in a season and the series but the episode loses on the issue not coming up before when it should have and that the episode completely ignores Lore exists and doesn't bring Lore up in ways that I was expecting the episode to, because this is such a major and risky procedure that could result in Data's death.

----------


## Seppl

> As for your post that I didn't quote here, it is just jarring that after Data's 27 years of Starfleet service that it is coming up. There was only the time when Data applied to Starfleet and maddox voted against Data, which would make Maddox have to be way older than he is, but it didn't come up during Data's service of someone who wanted to dissemble him.


Which brings up the real mind twister: By the time we meet Data for the first time, he has been active in Starfleet for decades, yet he acts as if this is his first contact with human society. Did topics like "what is a joke?" or "what is friendship?" just never come up in Starfleet Academy or on the other ships he has been on? Did nobody ever use any figures of speech on his previous assignments? He must have been functional enough during that time to graduate and to make it to Lieutenant Commander, albeit slowly.

----------


## Misery Esquire

> Which brings up the real mind twister: By the time we meet Data for the first time, he has been active in Starfleet for decades, yet he acts as if this is his first contact with human society. Did topics like "what is a joke?" or "what is friendship?" just never come up in Starfleet Academy or on the other ships he has been on? Did nobody ever use any figures of speech on his previous assignments? He must have been functional enough during that time to graduate and to make it to Lieutenant Commander, albeit slowly.


Maybe he home-schooled his Academy training, got a tired instructor for his shuttle flight tests that just didn't talk other than professionally, and then sat at home again taking courses for promotion points until someone noticed the one-off genius android and said;

"Let's assign him to that weekly disaster magnet of weirdos the _Enterprise_ where they're used to the unique, to get rid of him normalize the Academy grading curve."

Although it makes the medals weird in a military sense, the mixed scholastic/civic/mil workings of Starfleet may have a way to get medals without deployment. (And long service medals, though that's hardly fair to give to a functionally unaging robot.)

Is that a hilarious overstretch? Absolutely. But hey, plot holes get filling.

----------


## Gnoman

> well i did say that it could or would end badly. but it has the kind of feel of sheer crazy that starfleet seems to get up to.
> 
> frankly i was expecting for Lore to come up over the dangers of making androids like Data. what if Maddox were to end up accidentally make them like Lore? that doesn't sound good and I think that it is a strong argument for defending Data in my opinion.
> 
> Lore was crazy and had his traits, but Lore was a prototype before Data, possibly suggesting something that Maddox could create without meaning too. plus I think it would have affected how the arguments went and it challenged that Data was truly unique.



Picard went for the ethical argument - it does not matter how great the potential gain is, Data has the right not to consent to the procedure. He also raises the spectre of what that gain means - a race of slaves. Trying to argue utilitarianism weakens that, not makes it stronger. Mixing ethical arguments with utilitarian ones can _severely_ backfire. "You can't do this because Data is a person who has rights" is a fundamentally orthagonal argument from "You shouldn't do this because 50% of the androids Soong made were evil psychopaths". Winning on the Lore argument could very easily result in a "Data is the property of Starfleet and has no rights, but we also are shutting down the duplication project and ordering Data destroyed as a potential threat" ruling.

----------


## DigoDragon

> No, the Stargazer shows up in the episode of the first season, "the battle ", and it gets mentioned a number of times.


Okay, thanks! I couldn't remember when it first comes up. 

Having several friends in the Navy, my first time watching Next Gen I was rather impressed that Picard could lose a ship and end up commanding the flagship afterwards. Few captains still have a career if they lose a ship. 

But given how deadly space is, perhaps there is a shortage of senior officers to command ships, so Starfleet gets lenient on things?





> Did topics like "what is a joke?" or "what is friendship?" just never come up in Starfleet Academy


I'm picturing the "Forky Asks A Question" series, but with Data.

I think the writers didn't consider Data's background very deeply when they came up with 27 years. Unless their excuse is that they counted years he was being studied after he was found. I dunno.





> "Let's assign him to that weekly disaster magnet of weirdos the _Enterprise_ where they're used to the unique, to get rid of him normalize the Academy grading curve.".


After watching several episodes of "Lower Decks", I could totally see this line said by someone.

----------


## Seppl

> Having several friends in the Navy, my first time watching Next Gen I was rather impressed that Picard could lose a ship and end up commanding the flagship afterwards. Few captains still have a career if they lose a ship. 
> 
> But given how deadly space is, perhaps there is a shortage of senior officers to command ships, so Starfleet gets lenient on things?


I think it was in this very episode, it came up that Starfleet did give Picard a hard time because of the incident but in the end he was cleared of all charges in a trial involving the same admiral who presides the trial against Data. I guess in Federation society an acquittal really is an acquittal, leaving no negative repercussions. It might even have shed a positive light on Picard because he managed to save a lot of people in a desperate crisis by using innovative tactics. 

(Remember that at that point in the series the Ferengi are still supposed to be a very serious threat and Picard taking out the enemy and getting away with his crew, albeit at the loss of the ship, may be seen as the best possible outcome)

----------


## Gnoman

Modern navies are operating in peacetime, for the most part, and naval combat is very rare even in wartime. This means that it is very rare to lose a ship except through incompetence. Starfleet is not operating in that situation. Even when the Federation is not at war, Starfleet vessels are operating at or beyond the settled and peaceful regions. Running into unknown hostile vessels, _known_ hostile vessels, unknown environmental threats, and the like is part of the job. A Starfleet officer can lose a ship through incompetence, but could also do so through no fault.


If you compare to wartime navies, or the Age Of Sail era that Star Trek is deliberately echoing, losing a ship was not a death sentence for your career. It was custom in some places and time to court-martial any officer that lost a ship (as is suggested to be the case with Starfleet - they're drawing from life here), but that was as much a formal inquiry as anything else. If the Court found you blameless, you suffered no great penalty and could get another ship if one could be found for you. If, as with Picard, your performance was judged admirable, you could be court-martialed, decorated, and promoted. Just like Picard here.

----------


## hamishspence

> If you compare to wartime navies, or the Age Of Sail era that Star Trek is deliberately echoing, losing a ship was not a death sentence for your career. It was custom in some places and time to court-martial any officer that lost a ship (as is suggested to be the case with Starfleet - they're drawing from life here), but that was as much a formal inquiry as anything else. If the Court found you blameless, you suffered no great penalty and could get another ship if one could be found for you. If, as with Picard, your performance was judged admirable, you could be court-martialed, decorated, and promoted. Just like Picard here.


William Bligh is a classic example of this - court-martialled, but found to be Not At Fault regarding the mutiny on the Bounty, and it didn't appear to be a setback to his career.

----------


## Ionathus

> Season 2 Episode 9
> The Measure Of A Man
> Stardate: 42523.7
> 
> [Rating]
> 5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on
> &
> 1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore) - For Reasons


I remember this episode quite distinctly -- I remember being frustrated with it almost the entire way through. Even though TNG was a tiny bit anti-bureaucracy or would feature unreasonable characters in power, they never went full-on in portraying Starfleet as broadly incompetent, capricious, or unfair. So it was hard to entertain the premise that Data's personhood was in any danger, for even a moment of runtime, and as a result I mostly just wanted them to get on with the story without all of the legal posturing. 

I do agree there were some great speeches, and it was a very interesting opportunity to show Data's character through things like his possessions, like you mentioned. 

Just for fun (not really a judgment on the episode's quality one way or the other), there's a very entertaining video from Legal Eagle on YouTube about this episode, analyzing whether the actual court scenes were accurate (spoiler: not very).




> Lore was _unavailable_ for any of this sort of thing,


My brain misfired here and I thought you were saying Lore's _actor_ was unavailable...it took me a moment of confusion to actually parse your statement correctly!

----------


## russdm

> Just for fun (not really a judgment on the episode's quality one way or the other), there's a very entertaining video from Legal Eagle on YouTube about this episode, analyzing whether the actual court scenes were accurate (spoiler: not very).


Not important really, because Star trek never gets courtroom scenes right. Not in TOS, or TNG, or DS9, or Voy, or ENT. Just like how it is in Most or nearly all Scifi. From what I remember.

What is most funny is that one of the writer people was an actual lawyer, which makes the scenes here being wrong pretty funny.

----------


## Seppl

While the real reason is of course Hollywood dramaturgy, at least in this case you can say that it is hundreds of years into the future, following drastic socioeconomic changes. A lawyer of today would probably also find real court proceedings from absolutist France very strange and irregular, when judged by current US American standards.

----------


## Velaryon

For the most part I think this is a really good episode, though I agree it's a strange omission that Lore is not mentioned once, even tangentially, and instead is treated as though he doesn't exist.

However, the one thing that's always bugged me about this episode, even as a kid when I looked at this show through almost entirely uncritical eyes, is how absolutely contrived the circumstances are in order to force Riker to argue the other side.

----------


## Bohandas

> While the real reason is of course Hollywood dramaturgy, at least in this case you can say that it is hundreds of years into the future, following drastic socioeconomic changes. A lawyer of today would probably also find real court proceedings from absolutist France very strange and irregular, when judged by current US American standards.


That was my thought exactly

----------


## Ionathus

> While the real reason is of course Hollywood dramaturgy, at least in this case you can say that it is hundreds of years into the future, following drastic socioeconomic changes. A lawyer of today would probably also find real court proceedings from absolutist France very strange and irregular, when judged by current US American standards.


Strange how hundreds of years of technological improvements and socioeconomic/cultural evolution produces a legal code that perfectly mimics a late-20th-century layperson's vague misinterpretation of late-20th-century law  :Small Wink: 

Granted, I don't know much about military hierarchy, but Star Trek: TNG always seemed to have a more or less solid grasp of the mechanics of rank/duties/proper procedure/insubordination while still keeping it dramatic within the bounds of that framework. I'm not faulting them for getting little legal details wrong: I'm more upset that they made huge logical leaps & assumptions about law for the sake of drama, because the show usually felt like it put a lot of importance on proper procedure in other areas (i.e. matters of rank and obedience). 

Essentially, this episode seemed to break the show's own rules, just to make it more dramatic. As a result, I questioned the logic too much and wasn't able to enjoy the episode, because they weren't even bothering to hide how contrived the circumstances were.




> However, the one thing that's always bugged me about this episode, even as a kid when I looked at this show through almost entirely uncritical eyes, is how absolutely contrived the circumstances are in order to force Riker to argue the other side.


Agreed. This is one of the most egregious parts for me. The _drama_ of it was interesting but it was flat-out impossible to believe that they couldn't just pick someone else who wasn't 1) Data's immediate superior and 2) Data's close friend.

----------


## DavidSh

> Strange how hundreds of years of technological improvements and socioeconomic/cultural evolution produces a legal code that perfectly mimics a late-20th-century layperson's vague misinterpretation of late-20th-century law


I presume one of the steps in the wars of the 21st century was that somebody "killed all the lawyers", and burnt the lawbooks, leaving legal procedure to be reconstructed from popular fiction.

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 10
the Dauphin
Stardate: 42568.8

[Plot]
the crew got sent to pick up the future leader of a planet that is war torn and said future leader's qualifications is being the kid of the opposing sides. {this is about the same mentality that being a highly skilled cake decorator makes you qualified for running the government}

the future leader and guardian, being salia and anya. they come on board and wesley just has to fall in love with salia. we learn about romance from Worf and Riker and Geordi and Guinan. Worf brings up Klingon stuff.

Picard has been using the viewscreen on the bridge to talk with the guests from time to time. why Picard couldn't just use the device in his ready room on the bridge is never answered. also, salia and anya are shape shifters and sometimes look like ewoks and wookies. and yeah wes is totally hitting on salia too

we have an event in sickbay and anya goes all wookie and blah blah blah. things happen, peoples get escorted back to quarters 

salia and anya have a fight in wes's quarters and sometime before wes and salia visited the holodeck

there is event and so after time spent behind a forcefield, the crew deliver the future leader to destination. and we have the result of wes having a broken heart

[Rating]
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects

{Episode Commentary}
so this is a pretty lousy episode. it is solely about Wesley falling in love. and then the future leader salia falling in love too. pretty much the entire episode is filler.

important things to explain or consider like everything about the war torn planet and what will happen about it are completely unnecessary apparently. this lack of detail pretty much makes the plight that salia is in non existent. like what or why can't salia just ignore her responsibilities? because of dumb plot reasons.

I don't think that anything about how or what is going on with that planet seems to matter. the enterprise spends time traveling in a way that looks like everything is just a leisurely stroll. so, the importance of salia taking on the leader role comes across as drama for the sake of drama

this episode goes out of its way to just be about wes falling in love and that he can't be with that person.

frankly to me, this is a really dumb episode. i feel like the whole thing could have been done better and that the episode comes across as worse than "meh"

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Poker Playing: 1
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 3
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## DigoDragon

This is one of those episodes that could be forgotten with no real loss to the series. ^^

----------


## Ionathus

> I presume one of the steps in the wars of the 21st century was that somebody "killed all the lawyers", and burnt the lawbooks, leaving legal procedure to be reconstructed from popular fiction.


A surprisingly convincing theory!




> This is one of those episodes that could be forgotten with no real loss to the series. ^^


I can personally attest that I'd completely forgotten this one and, having been reminded of it, feel no great loss.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, I googled some screenshots of the episode to see if it jogged any memories, and came up with the following thoughts:
I watched the entire show straight through on Netflix so there's no way I could've missed one, but I might as well have. Nothing about this is familiar to me.The actor who played Wes's love interest bears a very strong resemblance to an 80s Millie Bobby Brown.In checking whether or not that actor was in fact Millie Bobby Brown's mother (she wasn't), I found out that the actor has since stopped acting and become a licensed psychotherapist. Perhaps to undo the damage she did by aiding and abetting an early-series Wesley episode, about romance no less.Good lord, they really tried to push Wesley in the early seasons. People reference "Growing The Beard" as the show's maturity point, but I would almost suggest "Starfleet Academy-ing The Wesley" as the real turning point. So much wasted time on such bland stuff.

----------


## russdm

Actually I think that Wesley falling in love would have worked in an episode. The problem is that it is not a plot that fills the entire episode and work. This episode really needed a a second plot to feed off such with a pull away from the romance. That was not done. So we got this garbage.

The entire plot about the war torn planet feels like it was takked on for giving a way for a person for wes to get involved with. Then they (writers) takked on the shape shifters part when there was no reason beyond making the show have its science fiction. It was completely pointless to have.

So one of anya's forms is an ewok. We see it in a scene. But then we didn't need the shape shifter part of the episode because it doesn't add anything other than to create drama. But nothing else in the episode is dramatic anyway so it's not really that impressive.

The whole episode feels like a bunch of stuff was thrown at a wall and based on stayed on the wall, like food, became parts of the episode. They have come up with Wesley just meeting with another member of the ship's crew because there are families on board ship, aren't there? Wesley could have easily just started going out with some other teenage girl on the ship and also if they wanted to, another teenage boy instead of girl. That would have worked way better and if things did not turn out well or great, how does the two handle being on board the same starship.

But nope, we get a war torn planet that no one cares about and some shape shifters that are only there to create drama.

----------


## DavidSh

> The whole episode feels like a bunch of stuff was thrown at a wall and based on stayed on the wall, like food, became parts of the episode. They have come up with Wesley just meeting with another member of the ship's crew because there are families on board ship, aren't there? Wesley could have easily just started going out with some other teenage girl on the ship and also if they wanted to, another teenage boy instead of girl. That would have worked way better and if things did not turn out well or great, how does the two handle being on board the same starship.
> 
> But nope, we get a war torn planet that no one cares about and some shape shifters that are only there to create drama.


They're trying to have more independent episodes at this point.  There are exceptions (Q, Vash, ...), but generally they don't want a romance starting in one ep to have consequences in later eps.  Just like with Kirk.

----------


## Ionathus

> They're trying to have more independent episodes at this point.  There are exceptions (Q, Vash, ...), but generally they don't want a romance starting in one ep to have consequences in later eps.  Just like with Kirk.


Especially for two child actors. I imagine if they were able to, they'd try to avoid the logistics of keeping both actors available for shoots and not aging out of the roles. And that's without rolling the puberty dice -- there are some *rough* moment's where Wesley's makeup is thick enough to frost a cake, thanks to Wil Wheaton going through isotretinoin-grade acne. Been there myself, and would have no desire to be on camera in any way, shape, or form.

----------


## tomandtish

> Okay, thanks! I couldn't remember when it first comes up. 
> 
> Having several friends in the Navy, my first time watching Next Gen I was rather impressed that Picard could lose a ship and end up commanding the flagship afterwards. Few captains still have a career if they lose a ship. 
> 
> But given how deadly space is, perhaps there is a shortage of senior officers to command ships, so Starfleet gets lenient on things?


As someone who has several family members who are/were in the navy, it's been an ongoing problem for a while that they are considered "top heavy" (too many high-ranking officers). One of the ways to avoid that is encouraging officers who aren't going up to resign/retire. So you can end up with a black mark on your record pretty easily that stops advancement. Gnoman is right that in older times losing a ship wasn't an issue unless there was obvious error on the captain's part. 

But even by the end of WW2  a captain could have his career ruined for something that wasn't their fault, especially if it attracted a lot of attention.  Without going into much detail the Captain of the Indianapolis is a prime example. Even with the help of Nimitz remitting his sentence, he was the public face of failure, which led to his suicide. Took 56 years for him to be formally cleared of error. 

Unfortunately one of my cousins committed suicide in 2017 because he was caught up in one of the recent purchasing scandals. Unclear how much (if anything) he knew, but it apparently completely derailed his career, including any chance at a decent job if/when he would have left service.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Unpopular Opinion:

I think it's nice to have a few "Wesley is growing up" episodes here and there. It's necessary to show a young character going through these kinds of life lessons as slowly become more of an adult. Especially without Doctor Crusher around during this season, Wesley is forced to get advice from all the rest of the crew instead, which makes it more interesting.

Honestly, I think they did a fairly good job showing Wesley's growth from an over-achieving child into a teen who's showing the stress of trying to keep up with everyone's expectations in just a few seasons. His rant about his mother being absent at the beginning of next season might seem a bit unreasonable, but at the same time it feels really believable and relatable to me.

Wesley reminds me a lot of my sister, actually.

----------


## Ionathus

> Unpopular Opinion:
> 
> I think it's nice to have a few "Wesley is growing up" episodes here and there. It's necessary to show a young character going through these kinds of life lessons as slowly become more of an adult. Especially without Doctor Crusher around during this season, Wesley is forced to get advice from all the rest of the crew instead, which makes it more interesting.
> 
> Honestly, I think they did a fairly good job showing Wesley's growth from an over-achieving child into a teen who's showing the stress of trying to keep up with everyone's expectations in just a few seasons. His rant about his mother being absent at the beginning of next season might seem a bit unreasonable, but at the same time it feels really believable and relatable to me.
> 
> Wesley reminds me a lot of my sister, actually.


I don't think the Wesley episodes are *bad*, necessarily. Most of them are passable or even decent. It's just that I can't think of one (except the one about his Starfleet Academy Investigation) that was _also_ a good episode of Star Trek: TNG. The things I like in TNG (the camaraderie, the cool alien concepts, the philosophy, the ship politics, the world politics, the Patrick Stewart) aren't set up to include Wesley in major ways. Almost every time, he just felt tacked-on to the episode, rather than informing and driving the story like the other characters did. 

I'm sure there *were* ways to tell a story that focused on Wesley growing up without having to sacrifice what made TNG great, but they didn't really ever seem to figure out that formula except for the one time I mentioned.

----------


## Velaryon

> I presume one of the steps in the wars of the 21st century was that somebody "killed all the lawyers", and burnt the lawbooks, leaving legal procedure to be reconstructed from popular fiction.


Headcanon accepted.





> They're trying to have more independent episodes at this point.  There are exceptions (Q, Vash, ...), but generally they don't want a romance starting in one ep to have consequences in later eps.  Just like with Kirk.


This is one of the reasons romance plots rarely made for great Trek episodes. The episodic nature of the series means everything returns to the status quo by the end of the episode, which is not how romance affects most people. Combine that with how seldom the love interest characters are ever referenced again, and it means that almost every romance plot feels pointless because you know it will never amount to anything and never be referenced again.

There are a few exceptions, but even most of those are generally not great examples of romance. Look at Worf/K'Ehleyr, for example. It has some long-term impact on the show (in the form of Alexander), but outside of her appearances K'Ehleyr is never referenced. It kinda makes sense since Worf is a private person anyway, but it's still not a shining example of a romance plot done well.

This is one thing that DS9 handled much better.

----------


## Ionathus

> This is one of the reasons romance plots rarely made for great Trek episodes. The episodic nature of the series means everything returns to the status quo by the end of the episode, which is not how romance affects most people. Combine that with how seldom the love interest characters are ever referenced again, and it means that almost every romance plot feels pointless because you know it will never amount to anything and never be referenced again.
> 
> There are a few exceptions, but even most of those are generally not great examples of romance. Look at Worf/K'Ehleyr, for example. It has some long-term impact on the show (in the form of Alexander), but outside of her appearances K'Ehleyr is never referenced. It kinda makes sense since Worf is a private person anyway, but it's still not a shining example of a romance plot done well.


Despite not doing much in the way of myth arcs season- or series-wide, I felt like TNG did a pretty good job of maintaining at least small continuities across the storylines. Characters would reference things they had done seasons ago, the Klingon and Romulan stuff kept coming up, and the world felt alive in some small ways. It was definitely a Status Quo show, but it did feel like many of the characters grew throughout the run, if at least in small ways.

----------


## russdm

I think the easiest way to look at what was wrong with the episode is to consider the following))

1) Plot A is the War Torn Planet and that Salia will be the Leader of the Planet

2) Plot B is Wesley following in love with Salia, and being interested in her. courting her

3) Plot C is that Salia and Anya are Shape Shifters

4) Plot D is that Salia has feelings for Wesley, (while she is Human in Shape-{plot C connection})

(So the Episode functions with Plot A being the Starting Part and Ending Part, with the Rest of the Episode being about the other plots. This makes the Episode less interesting, and nearly pointless.

Plot A should have been incorporated more in my opinion, because it would have allowed for some really good bonding moments for Wesley and Salia. Salia grew up elsewhere, is being made leader of this planet, and expected to take on a role that she might not be prepared for at all. Then there is the fact, that she is not going to have any part of her old life left after taking over the role of leader. Wesley has been going down the path to being in Starfleet and the like. Those could have been ways that the two bond.

Plot C should have been cut along with Plot D's Salia has feelings for Wesley while being shapeshifted as Human. Plot A should have its part increased and made a much larger background element. That would have given the Episode's story much needed weight and a real sense of Poignancy(Feels) because Salia and Wesley are exploring a relationship that simply won't work out. It also would have provided something that would have added meaning to their interactions.

As written, Plot C and the ignoring of Plot A, just makes the story incrediably silly. I think that it is easy to totally forgot that Salia has any kind of responsibility or anything that makes a reason for why she can't stay with Wesley. Nor is there any kind of reason established why Wesley just can't join her.

The writers really were stupid to include Plot C, and it feels like it just got tacked on to have the "Star" part in "Star Trek". I just didn't like it any and it just ruins the story which actually could have worked really well with Wesley.

So that covers that episode. Now, on to the next one, and time to get closer to the episodes that: Ruin the Prime Directive and makes Starfleet a bunch of Smug God Wannabe Bastards; the first appearance of the Borg (Shudder, Shudder, Shudder / May be expecting some weird Borg Nightmares  & Dreams -- Yeah, I may just skip this Episode or Maybe just a rather shorter take, Not sure if How much the recap will go); Starfleet are morons, total Morons (the Pakleds). Yeah, places to go!

-------------------------

Season 2 Episode 11
Contagion
Stardate: 42609.1

[Plot]
Picard gets contacted by his friend, Donald Varley, A black man, who is Captain of the Yamato, another Galaxy class starship like the Enterprise. It is having problems. Picard takes the ship to visit and there is some speculation that the problems are the result of flaws in the Galaxy Class design.

After some talking with Donald Varley, the Yamato blows up. Picard had the Yamato's logs downloaded, so what happened to it, starts happening slowly to the Enterprise. A review of the Captain's logs reveals that they (the Yamato) discovered some things relating to the Iconians, a civilization.

The Iconians were called the Demons of Air and Darkness, and viewed with considerable disorder and distrust. They were considered conquerors and not exactly have a great reputation. Also, A Romulan Warbird appears.

The crew join to the place that appears to be Iconia, the homeworld of the civilization. There, a facility launches a  probe, which Geordi says should be destroyed. It caused the problems for the Yamato, when it scanned it.

That done, Picard heads down to the planet with Worf and Data. He had a conversation with Wesley earlier about the Iconians and how the crew of the enterprise would appear interesting to stone age people.

The Iconians had the technology to create gateways to any of a number of places. Data has some interaction with the device, then after getting disabled, Worf takes Data to engineering. Picard sets the facility to explode. Also, the Romulans show up, and destroy a probe too.

Data has some basic system happen that clears out the Iconian program/thing, and Geordi does that to the ship's computer. The Romulans do the same, then also Picard ends up on the Romulan ship, gets beamed away. The Enterprise flies off, while the Romulan ship is fixed, and the facility blows up.

[Rating]
Hidden Gem
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on

{Episode Commentary}
This is probably one of the best episodes in Season 2. We learn about the Iconians, what they could do. Then the plot relations with the Romulans happen. Everything relates together, the Romulans got the Yamato's log, so it was affected.

We also learn about how Picard has an interest in Archaeology, a passion that Picard will continue to indulge in. Some very nice character Development here. Then we have how the studies of the Iconians help to explore who they are, and let's us learn about another race that came before and is gone. It is a really nice bit.

Really solid writing all around. Nothing terrible at all, and things flow very nicely and naturally. And it adds some significant parts to our characters: Data has backup systems for his safety, Picard likes archaeology, and Troi uses her empathy to great effect in this episode.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Poker Playing: 1
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 4
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Picard takes the ship to visit and there is some speculation that the problems are the result of flaws in the Galaxy Class design.


The failsafes aren't and the warp core explodes if you stare at it too hard?

The Enterprise was a deathtrap during TNG.

----------


## DavidSh

> The failsafes aren't and the warp core explodes if you stare at it too hard?


I wonder if some fan has added up how many episodes had a narrowly averted warp core breach.

----------


## GloatingSwine

Probably. Given that it actually explode the ship at least three times but it managed to unhappen due to timey wimey stuff in the actual series.

(And Voyager ejected its warp core four separate times, although one of those was the copy Voyager. But then Voyager also managed to explode 15 of the 2 shuttles they started with.)

----------


## DigoDragon

> The failsafes aren't and the warp core explodes if you stare at it too hard?
> The Enterprise was a deathtrap during TNG.


To be fair, nearly all Starfleet ships were a "deathtrap" of sorts because the only thing holding the antimatter in place is a delicate magnetic field. 





> Data has some basic system happen that clears out the Iconian program/thing


His brain reset to a previous android _Restore Point_ before the infection.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Peelee

> Probably. Given that it actually explode the ship at least three times but it managed to unhappen due to timey wimey stuff in the actual series.
> 
> (And Voyager ejected its warp core four separate times, although one of those was the copy Voyager. But then Voyager also managed to explode 15 of the 2 shuttles they started with.)


Voyager Gothic is pretty amazing, if anyone hasn't read it.

----------


## Misery Esquire

> Voyager Gothic is pretty amazing, if anyone hasn't read it.


All I could think of reading that was TFS Goku:

Ensign One-of-One : We lost a shuttle, I don't know what we'll do if we lose the other.
Ensign Goku : Replicate another?
1/1 : You... Can't replicate a shuttle.
Goku : Then what's the Shuttle Button for?
1/1 : What shuttle button? There is no shuttle button!
Goku : Then where'd I get all these shuttles...?
<camera pans to hangar stuffed with shuttles>
1/1 : *internalized screaming*

----------


## Bohandas

> All I could think of reading that was TFS Goku


It made me think of was the TNG episode where Dr.Crusher gets stuck in the pocket dimension where stuff keeps disappearing.

----------


## Peelee

> All I could think of reading that was TFS Goku:
> 
> Ensign One-of-One : We lost a shuttle, I don't know what we'll do if we lose the other.
> Ensign Goku : Replicate another?
> 1/1 : You... Can't replicate a shuttle.
> Goku : Then what's the Shuttle Button for?
> 1/1 : What shuttle button? There is no shuttle button!
> Goku : Then where'd I get all these shuttles...?
> <camera pans to hangar stuffed with shuttles>
> 1/1 : *internalized screaming*


Oh man don't even get me started on Voyager and the replicator/holodeck.

----------


## russdm

To be honest, Voyager was supposed to be about the ship having limited resources but the writers abandoned that within the first season and ended up going with status quo is God and they are in prefect shape between episodes.

As for Voyager and the holodeck it has, they try to suggest that the energy for the holodeck is somehow incompatible with the other ship's power systems. The writers wanted to feature holodeck episodes though and they just didn't think through the details any.

In fact, the writers didn't care at all about the series but wanted a Redux of the Next Generation and so they ignored pretty much everything they had set up. The whole Marquis living on the ship and having the two crews just immediately combine with no problems by the third episode.

The solutions for this episode are all basic IT stuff now. Geordi's solution from Data is, in the words of Roy from the IT crowd "did you turn it off and on again?"

That is because at time of the episode, computers were pretty different than now and were new technology basically. It does make it funny that said solution doesn't occur to Geordi immediately but we have had real world tech development that was not predicted at the time of the episode. Technology marched on.

As for the number of timey wimey the ship explodes, I will add a tracker for that when the first time it happens. Also for the failsafes fail.

The failsafes if I remember correctly were all set up as physical components not computer systems so they would have to be destroyed in order to not work but they (the writers) just did that anyway.

I would say that I forgot about the pocket dimension Dr. Crusher episode and only remembered it after it got mentioned. I have always remembered her episode with the candle and the ghost though. Probably because of how full of narm and stupid it is.  And then apparently despite the others promising Dr. Crusher to never speak of what happened, if I am remembering correctly, all of Starfleet knows in lower decks. Really?

----------


## Peelee

> As for Voyager and the holodeck it has, they try to suggest that the energy for the holodeck is somehow incompatible with the other ship's power systems. The writers wanted to feature holodeck episodes though and they just didn't think through the details any.


Not what I'm talking about.

They kept the energy issues in the background for most of the series, but still had them present. Neelix cooked most meals, replicator rations were gambled, stuff like that. We also know that Harry ate Neelix's food for a week to save up enough replicator rations to make a clarinet. My issue is that everyone replicated clothing and props for the Holodeck. The Holodeck itself could produce these things, as it produced everything else. You could walk into the holodeck in undies or a more-or-less skintight suit designed for this, but no. This is actually an issue I have with all holodeck-equipped ships (Why would Jake have an _actual fishing pole_ when travelling to a space station for an indefinite amount of time?!), but it's significantly worse with Voyager, since their replicator engery was specifically rationed. It's straight up frivolous waste  at that point.

----------


## russdm

You know, once the writers decided to give up on their own premise, I gave up on it too.

The points you mentioned are problems but with how the writers went, I just consider it a whole other way that Voyager is a bad star trek series.

Those rations for replicators will vanish in the first season or second season or at some point after Harry gets his clarinet and like be completely ignored. If I remember correctly from the show

----------


## GloatingSwine

> To be fair, nearly all Starfleet ships were a "deathtrap" of sorts because the only thing holding the antimatter in place is a delicate magnetic field.


I dunno, the original NCC-1701 wasn't apt to explode if Scotty had beans for dinner the night before the way the 1701-D felt like sometimes.

(And let's not forget the time Neelix nearly blew up Voyager with cheese.)




> To be honest, Voyager was supposed to be about the ship having limited resources but the writers abandoned that within the first season and ended up going with status quo is God and they are in prefect shape between episodes.


Although much of this was dictates from upon high apparently.  Year of Hell was originally supposed to be a whole season arc that essentially soft rebooted Voyager back to the original premise, but bosses were not having it and so it got crunched down to a two parter.

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

Look we could discuss Voyagers forever and indeed that might be fun. But this is the TNG thread.

----------


## Velaryon

> The solutions for this episode are all basic IT stuff now. Geordi's solution from Data is, in the words of Roy from the IT crowd "did you turn it off and on again?"
> 
> That is because at time of the episode, computers were pretty different than now and were new technology basically. It does make it funny that said solution doesn't occur to Geordi immediately but we have had real world tech development that was not predicted at the time of the episode. Technology marched on.


Yeah, this really shows how TNG was a product of a time when personal computers were not a widespread thing. This climactic solution to avert a character death is literally a basic precaution that is built into computer operating systems, to the point where they couldn't write this as a plot point today without coming up with a reason this wouldn't work.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Not what I'm talking about.
> 
> They kept the energy issues in the background for most of the series, but still had them present. Neelix cooked most meals, replicator rations were gambled, stuff like that. We also know that Harry ate Neelix's food for a week to save up enough replicator rations to make a clarinet. My issue is that everyone replicated clothing and props for the Holodeck. The Holodeck itself could produce these things, as it produced everything else. You could walk into the holodeck in undies or a more-or-less skintight suit designed for this, but no. This is actually an issue I have with all holodeck-equipped ships (Why would Jake have an _actual fishing pole_ when travelling to a space station for an indefinite amount of time?!), but it's significantly worse with Voyager, since their replicator engery was specifically rationed. It's straight up frivolous waste  at that point.


I'm pretty sure holodecks that could provide holographic clothing for the participants didn't exist until the Enterprise E did it in ST First Contact? Every time holodecks are used in the series' they need to provide their own clothing.

But I agree with the fishing pole being unnecessary.

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 12
The Royale
Stardate: 42625.4

[Plot]
The crew visit a planet that there was strange reports of weird power readings or something. The crew do a little bit of investigation and find some piece from some NASA ship. And some kind of building.

So the crew beam down to the building, and the building is the only real thing there. The away team does a little bit of investigating and determine there is no where else to go. So the away team goes into the building.

The building is some time period of a Casino, and has events happening. It also cuts off the away team from the ship. They do a little bit of investigating more, and find a skeleton, and a book. Casino Royale. Somehow, the away team is able to communicate briefly with the ship, and discuss the book, which was apparently a rather terrible one.

From some detail, it turns out that the Skeleton was a person on a ship that crashed on planet somehow, thanks to some aliens. those aliens decided to create something for the person to survive and went with the book. The person didn't like the book though.

The away team take actions to cheat at the Casino games and get the money to complete the Book's plot. That allows them to leave, where before they were not able to when they tried.

The episode ends with some question about how the ship got out so far.

[Rating]
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

{Episode Commentary}
Yeah, this is a bad episode. The idea of aliens creating an environment based on a book feels like a couple of other TOS episodes where aliens create areas for learning about humans or such. There were a few in TOS -- The wild west one, Squire of Gothos, the one with Abe Lincoln and Kahless, the one with Apollo, the Metrons, the one with fizzy hair girl and it had the rock crushing (andromeda stuff episode? I think some part of some episode of TOS had a girl with fizzy hair {It was slightly long and had some curve/curl/zig-zag}), and especially the one of the gangster  planet.

Then there is the book itself. Apparently it is based on that novel, which the story makes as pretty bad in universe. Meaning that the book keep playing despite the person the aliens stuck there having died. I would have thought that the book-building-environment would have just shut down as soon as that person had died. Apparently the aliens put in some extra long batteries.

Then when the away team leaves, it is not made clear that the building and area disappears. Slightly seems, that it will just go over from the start again.

The next real issue, is that the ship was somehow supposed to get as far out as it did, but the technology element seems to be considerable less than what would have been required. So the ship would have needed help to travel. This also begs the question of why the aliens just didn't fix the person some, if they could, and dump them in an escape pod closer to earth.

If that was not possible, then why talk to the person, or use something else present for the area? Was that book really the only one on the ship? was there others? what made the aliens pick it opposed to anything else?

The ship has a flag with stars on it, a flag with 52 stars and American. Just a quirk to mention.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Poker Playing: 1
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 4
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## Seppl

While bad, at least this episode is memorable. Enough quirky, unusual stuff happens to make an impression. Contrast that with some of the other bad episodes we covered recently, especially those with a romantic main plot and a generic sci-fi B-plot stapled on.

----------


## DigoDragon

I always felt that the aliens who built the casino were on some higher level so far removed from us mentally, that they did it out of curiosity and then abandoned it after getting bored because they didn't see the human as anything but a simple lifeform. It's like us building an ant farm to watch the ants scuttle about in their tiny enclosed space.

I did like the little mention of the US flag with more than 50 stars. 

And that Data could make a killing in Vegas. I wonder how much he has to hold back when he plays poker with the crew?

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

Isn't it "Hotel Royale" rather than "Casino Royale"?

"Casino Royale" was the first James Bond book, losely adapted into one of the weirdest (and most hilarious ) spoofs I have ever seen. (This is well before the 2006 version with Daniel Craig)

----------


## Seppl

> And that Data could make a killing in Vegas. I wonder how much he has to hold back when he plays poker with the crew?


We do know that he is capable of perfectly stacking a deck while shuffling.

----------


## Bohandas

> I always felt that the aliens who built the casino were on some higher level so far removed from us mentally, that they did it out of curiosity and then abandoned it after getting bored because they didn't see the human as anything but a simple lifeform. It's like us building an ant farm to watch the ants scuttle about in their tiny enclosed space.


So basically like _Squire of Gothos_ if he got bored and wandered off

----------


## russdm

Okay so the fizzy hair girl is the episode of deep space 9 with the tribbles

----------


## Velaryon

It definitely wasn't an amazing episode, but it was fun. It definitely felt a lot like an old TOS episode. The explanation was interesting, even if it was a bit flawed. I thought their solution to escape was clever as well.




> I always felt that the aliens who built the casino were on some higher level so far removed from us mentally, that they did it out of curiosity and then abandoned it after getting bored because they didn't see the human as anything but a simple lifeform. It's like us building an ant farm to watch the ants scuttle about in their tiny enclosed space.
> 
> I did like the little mention of the US flag with more than 50 stars. 
> 
> And that Data could make a killing in Vegas. I wonder how much he has to hold back when he plays poker with the crew?


I got the impression that the aliens were well-intentioned but didn't really know what to do with the human they found. They probably didn't have the ability to actually communicate with him or send him back where he came from, so they built him a little habitat and hoped for the best. They probably had no idea how much he hated it there.

As for Data, I imagine there's a reason the other officers play poker with him rather than blackjack or roulette.  :Small Wink:

----------


## Arcane_Secrets

> As for the number of timey wimey the ship explodes, I will add a tracker for that when the first time it happens. Also for the failsafes fail.


This may be more challenging than originally anticipated...

----------


## DigoDragon

> We do know that he is capable of perfectly stacking a deck while shuffling.


That is true. Heck, he did it subconsciously in an episode (I forgot the title but it had a time loop negative space wedgie going on).





> So basically like _Squire of Gothos_ if he got bored and wandered off


Heh, basically. ^^





> I got the impression that the aliens were well-intentioned but didn't really know what to do with the human they found. They probably didn't have the ability to actually communicate with him or send him back where he came from, so they built him a little habitat and hoped for the best. They probably had no idea how much he hated it there.


This was my first impression of the aliens from 2001: A Space Odyssey when I saw the movie, but after reading the books, I was pretty wrong in that thought.

But yeah, these aliens in the episode I don't think we're malevolent.

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> And that Data could make a killing in Vegas. I wonder how much he has to hold back when he plays poker with the crew?


As I recall when the crew were stranded in the 1800s Data made money by cheating at cards.

----------


## hamishspence

In the _Time's Arrow_ 2-parter episode Data made money by_ playing at_ poker - I don't recall it ever being stated in the episode that he cheated though.

----------


## Gnoman

> Season 2 Episode 10
> the Dauphin
> Stardate: 42568.8
> 
> [Plot]
> the crew got sent to pick up the future leader of a planet that is war torn and said future leader's qualifications is being the kid of the opposing sides. {this is about the same mentality that being a highly skilled cake decorator makes you qualified for running the government}


Way late with this because I've been busy, but the whole "kid of the two sides becomes the leader" is far from an absurd notion. It isn't about how qualified she is, but giving both sides a leader that they can see as _theirs_, and thus get both groups of people together instead of fighting. Fundamentally the same idea as political marriages in actual history.

----------


## russdm

> Way late with this because I've been busy, but the whole "kid of the two sides becomes the leader" is far from an absurd notion. It isn't about how qualified she is, but giving both sides a leader that they can see as _theirs_, and thus get both groups of people together instead of fighting. Fundamentally the same idea as political marriages in actual history.


yes but the episode brings it up a couple of times that she will be in charge and then forgets about it. then she is descended from two general members on opposing sides, the closest equivalent being some random French person and some random English person, with them totally being peasants, and their daughter will be the leader/ruler of England & France; all happening during the 100 years war.

that just doesn't make much sense but giving it is TNG, i could roll with it. but the episode doesn't take any time to really pay attention to it. the episode is mainly about how wesley falls in love with her, and then she falls in love with him. i was really hoping or presuming that it would come up because of all the potential bonding it could have given wesley and salia. i don't have real problems with this part.

i really don't like the inclusion of the shape shifting because it feels that it is there because it says "Star Trek : tng", so must have space or scifi parts. you could have cut the shape shifting parts and the story would have still worked and I think that it would have been better even.

------------------------------------

Season 2 Episode 13
Time Squared 
Stardate: 42679.2

[Plot]
Riker botches making an omelette and only Worl likes it out of him and Geordi and Dr, Pulaski and Data, who doesn't partake.

the crew discover a Federation Shuttlepod that happens to be one from their own ship with a duplicate of Picard on board. The crew do some opposite effect and so revive the Picardie (Picard Duplicate) and the Shuttlepod for accessing the Shuttlepods logs. The logs show that the Enterprise was destroyed. In about/exactly 6 hours.

It turns out that Picardie fled the ship, and is a bit cowardly. Picard is somewhat off put by this. Some talk with Riker over how Picardie got to their time. Then a Vortex opens up beneath the ship. The crew try to do something to escape the Vortex, and some blue beams-things hit the the two Picards. Naturally, that must be way Picardie left, to keep the blue beams-things from the Enterprise.

Picard tries to get Picardie to help him out, but that doesn't work. Then, with Picard having not come up with anything else, Picard kills Picardie, and has the Enterprise fly through the Vortex. Upon which it goes back to whatever/whereever. And Picard was not happy about meeting his other self.

[Rating]
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

{Episode Commentary}
This is just about as bad as the last episode was. The crisis pops up out of nowhere (the Vortex), and the solution is pretty out there. Of course, things would have been way more understandable had some explanation or detail about why the Vortex even exists could have been made. That way, what happened in the episode would have been more understandable, and I would consider it an average episode rather than a poor one.

I don't think that the plot makes an kind of sense beyond, the Vortex exists, the Enterprise was destroyed because the crew did some other thing, and Picardie went back in time. But, would Picard having just stunned Picardie rather than Kill Him worked just as well, while flying the ship through the Vortex? Who knows.

The lack of detail of how or even why, or even what, the Vortex is, makes me decide to explain it in a completely different fashion. I would prefer to just think that maybe Q is having some fun with the Crew for Q's own amusement, because the plot with the Vortex just makes no sense. Usually in the show when such weird space anomalies appear, the crew discuss what said anomaly is or what it is made of. That helps us viewers understand somewhat, and so what happens in the story makes some sense too. That doesn't apply to this episode, and I frankly have no way to understand why exactly Killing Picardie even works as the right solution, or what exactly the entire point of what the Vortex was. Some random thing for the crew to encounter?

The Episode is called "Time Squared" but I don't think that I have seen anything that really explains the reason for the episode title. Usually the episodes having some plot or dialogue that relates to the episode title in some way. Not here, from what I can tell. A better example of Time Squared would be the scenes of Data being joined by himself in the earlier episode about that guy would was tampering with dimensions and managed to open a dimension kind of portal thing and Data had to close it.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Poker Playing: 1
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 4
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## Seppl

Not just a weak episode, but a disappointing one. The episode starts with a strong, intriguing setup. Star Trek has had many well constructed time travel puzzle plots (if you don't think about them _too_ hard), and with this setup and the episode title one would expect that the audience is in for a fun ride. But the episode just meanders on and the solutions to the plot feel arbitrary and are not properly set up. I guess they wanted to focus on the "What if Picard met himself?" angle, but that one also does not work: Picardie (as you call him) is incoherent throughout most of the episode. The regular Picard felt a lot more like early season 1 Picard than the thoughtful, diplomatic Picard we had at this point in the series. And both Picard's actions felt forced by the authors, instead of deriving naturally from the characters. Thus we have a) a puzzle with an arbitrary, forced solution, b) a character episode where the characters don't feel like themselves, and c), the combination of a and b makes it even worse by forcing the characters to act in the way the plot requires.

PS: I just read on Memory Alpha that this episode was intended as a part of a greater arc over several episodes, involving Q. But that angle was scrapped, explaining why the solution in the end felt so tacked on.

----------


## russdm

> PS: I just read on Memory Alpha that this episode was intended as a part of a greater arc over several episodes, involving Q. But that angle was scrapped, explaining why the solution in the end felt so tacked on.


Yeah, i read this on memory alpha as well. Apparently Gene nixed the idea but no explanation why. so we get the bizarre ending. also leaves everything confusing.  why kill Picardie? why fly through the vortex? i really feel that this is one of those episodes where they ought to have told Gene to shut up

----------


## DigoDragon

> In the _Time's Arrow_ 2-parter episode Data made money by_ playing at_ poker - I don't recall it ever being stated in the episode that he cheated though.


Data doesn't need to "cheat". He could count cards perfectly and easily win that way. Incidentally, counting cards is considered cheating in Vegas, so I guess the definition of cheating needs clarification. ^^





> Yeah, i read this on memory alpha as well. Apparently Gene nixed the idea but no explanation why. so we get the bizarre ending. also leaves everything confusing.  why kill Picardie? why fly through the vortex? i really feel that this is one of those episodes where they ought to have told Gene to shut up


So should this get a +1 on the "Gene ruins Star Trek" meter?

The only thing I remember fondly of this episode was some outtakes with Data and Geordi. The episode itself was just wasted potential.

----------


## hamishspence

> Data doesn't need to "cheat". He could count cards perfectly and easily win that way. Incidentally, counting cards is considered cheating in Vegas, so I guess the definition of cheating needs clarification. ^^


The general principle with counting cards (in your head) is that it's not illegal, but it's still something you can normally get banned from a casino for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_counting

Counting cards with an electronic device, however, tends to be criminal.

So (assuming they can't detect Data's positronic brain) if they looked at Data's behaviour and concluded "He's card-counting", the casino could ban him and yet not accuse him of cheating.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Data doesn't need to "cheat". He could count cards perfectly and easily win that way. Incidentally, counting cards is considered cheating in Vegas, so I guess the definition of cheating needs clarification. ^^


Counting cards isn't cheating in poker, it's playing Poker properly. You aren't playing against the house, you're playing against the other players at the table. Figuring out which cards have and haven't been seen and thereby what other players might have is one of the key skills of poker that all players are expected to be doing. Also in poker the deck is shuffled between hands so card counting isn't a long term thing it's an immediate in the moment thing.

It's considered cheating in _blackjack_ because you can use it to get an edge over the house. Because the deck isn't shuffled between hands (hands are shorter and shuffling between hands slowed the game down unacceptably, so they use six decks shuffled together to make it harder to keep count) you can determine whether the pool of cards in the shoe are favourable to the house or player based on the rules the dealer has to use. (If there are more high cards in the shoe the player has the advantage, if there are more low cards the dealer has the advantage).

Memory isn't actually too much of a thing in card countin. You don't really need to memorise which cards have been seen, just assign each card a positive or negative score based on its value to the house or player and keep a basic arithmetical count and you'll know which way the shoe is biased at any given time and how much, play conservatively until the shoe is biased to players then start betting. The trick is that you're playing at a table of 5-6 players plus the dealer and you have to clock every card dealt to all of them and do it all in your head without making it obvious that you're doing it. Which Data could easily do, of course.

----------


## russdm

> So should this get a +1 on the "Gene ruins Star Trek" meter?
> 
> The only thing I remember fondly of this episode was some outtakes with Data and Geordi. The episode itself was just wasted potential.


Well I don't see it as falling into that category. The episode is wonky but I don't see going out of its way to wreck anything that has come before and it also doesn't make the crew look like a bunch of idiots. I see "Gene ruins Star Trek " as the episode taking a general piss on everything about Star Trek; basically treating everything from before as a joke. The episode would also be a bad episode, getting the lowest rating.

Don't worry, we have an episode coming up that will have that, if I am remembering correctly the episode

----------


## Seppl

Yet, Data is never seen winning at the officer's Poker table. Which is kind of realistic. He may be playing the odds perfectly, but any good player can do that to an acceptable degree. What Data lacks is the ability to bluff or read bluffs, which is a required skill to beat the odds. He is getting better at it, though. In the San Francisco time travel episode (which is late season 5) he is able to easily beat a professional card shark.

edit: No, I was wrong. He does win at least once, prompting Riker to acknowledge his skill.

----------


## Velaryon

I agree that the "Picard meets himself from the near future" plot hook was wasted here. I don't know if this could have ever been rewritten into a _great_ episode, but surely it could have been at least a pretty good one. This was not.

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 14
The Icarus Factor
Stardate: 42686.4

[Plot]
So the crew stop over at Montgomery Station so that Riker can learn about the Captaincy of a ship from some advisor. Also, Worf has problems, and the ship has some issues.

The special advisor turns out to be Riker's estranged father Kyle. It is made clear that there are seriously bad feelings that exist, and that also Dr. Pulaski was involved at one time with Kyle. Kyle had a difficult time, and abandoned Will age 15.

Worf is not happy with being on the Enterprise, along with some other issues. Wesley investigates and determines that it is the anniversary of a Klingon Ritual for Worf. Having tried to get Data or Geordi to talk to Worf, with Data getting a respectful, "Be Gone!" from Worf, Wesley took it upon himself to look through the Klingon Cultural Database.

The ship's issues are based on some faulty readings, which Data suggested a fix for. This ends up getting used.

Will and Kyle spar heavily over unresolved issues, and then Kyle also briefs Will on the role that the new Captaincy will allow him to take.

Wesley preps the ceremony for Worf, which involves Worf walking through a line of Klingon Warriors with Painsticks. It is an interesting Ceremony. Worf is grateful for having done so.

The Ship's issues are fixed up exactly as Data suggested.

The issue between Will and Kyle are solved through fighting it out in a martial arts engagement. They then promptly settle their differences.

Will naturally doesn't take the offering of the Captaincy on that ship. Earlier though, Worf should up to want to join on, since Worf has been worked up about the Klingon Ceremony and probably missing out on having some battles.

The ship heads out from Montgomery Station.

[Rating]
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on
Was originally, but now
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)
But Upgraded to
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.

{Episode Commentary}
So this episode started out really good and with some interesting plotlines to follow, then simply fall apart at the ending point. Nearly all of it works but some things just ruin it.

1) The first to mention is very thing about the Martial sport that Will and Kyle play. It has them dress up in outfits that are slightly Tron like and be blind-folded with a stick. This sport is called the evolution of Martial Arts, like this is where they will go. Given how incrediably silly it comes across though, I can't believe that for a second that is where Martial Arts will end up. Just bizarre

2) Due to Gene's attitude about how things are in the 24th/23rd centuries, the pathos/emotion of how Will and Kyle should be feeling over their mutual resentments and problems doesn't have any of the weight that it feels like should be there. It just feels a little overall flat and of no real importance to either party. It makes the scenes where the two fight and talk it out, come across as really cheap, with the real emotion in...

3) The whole bit with the Klingon Ceremony with the Painsticks and that it has the emotional impact that the story between Will and Kyle should have had. Watching Worf going through that and seeing his friends and how much it makes them uncomfortable and that they don't like it much, but will for his sake, gives all sorts of strong feels, but that just shows up how little feels that seems to come from seeing Will and Kyle work out their differences. It just doesn't feel like there was any emotional impact.

This can be see as one of the problems with Gene's vision of the future. If all Human Drama was resolved to never happen, that what Drama and Pathos could exist from the characters? What makes actually like Gene's version of Future Humans? This must be the first episode that shows Gene really getting drunk on his own Kool-Aid and how much it undercuts the conflict between Will and Riker. I expected manly tears, deep heart-felt confessions, but got some commentary and an easily resolved conflict that didn't seem to more issue-ing than how like one or the other had gotten some bad item and were trying to exchange it, like one does with unhappy Christmas gifts.

Gene's future humans are products of 80s and a possible future but also, are not exactly relatable any. This is probably the first episode to really show how Gene's rules hurt the series rather than helps it.

Of course, given the billing that Riker has, there was no chance that He was going to leave. That doesn't affect the episode's rating any.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 1
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 2 (No Human Drama Allowed)
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 4
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

I dont believe the sport martial art of this episode would be mentioned again for over 30 years.

----------


## DigoDragon

> 2) Due to Gene's attitude about how things are in the 24th/23rd centuries, the pathos/emotion of how Will and Kyle should be feeling over their mutual resentments and problems doesn't have any of the weight that it feels like should be there.


Don't worry, things get better after Gene dies. 

I think the Klingon ceremony was the best thing of this episode. It is weird and uncomfortable, but I guess that's kind of the point here. Aliens got strange cultures and it makes sense to them if not us. Good job to Wesley on that.

----------


## tomandtish

> Counting cards isn't cheating in poker, it's playing Poker properly. You aren't playing against the house, you're playing against the other players at the table. Figuring out which cards have and haven't been seen and thereby what other players might have is one of the key skills of poker that all players are expected to be doing. Also in poker the deck is shuffled between hands so card counting isn't a long term thing it's an immediate in the moment thing.
> 
> *It's considered cheating in* _blackjack_ because you can use it to get an edge over the house. Because the deck isn't shuffled between hands (hands are shorter and shuffling between hands slowed the game down unacceptably, so they use six decks shuffled together to make it harder to keep count) you can determine whether the pool of cards in the shoe are favourable to the house or player based on the rules the dealer has to use. (If there are more high cards in the shoe the player has the advantage, if there are more low cards the dealer has the advantage).
> 
> Memory isn't actually too much of a thing in card countin. You don't really need to memorise which cards have been seen, just assign each card a positive or negative score based on its value to the house or player and keep a basic arithmetical count and you'll know which way the shoe is biased at any given time and how much, play conservatively until the shoe is biased to players then start betting. The trick is that you're playing at a table of 5-6 players plus the dealer and you have to clock every card dealt to all of them and do it all in your head without making it obvious that you're doing it. Which Data could easily do, of course.



Regarding cheating, actually it isn't in Blackjack either. Both New Jersey and Nevada Supreme Courts ruled that you can't treat a card counter as a cheater (casinos don't have to pay a cheater).  You CAN ban them from playing the game since casinos have that right, but you have to pay them any winnings they have accrued so far.

----------


## hamishspence

> Regarding cheating, actually it isn't in Blackjack either. Both New Jersey and Nevada Supreme Courts ruled that you can't treat a card counter as a cheater (casinos don't have to pay a cheater).  You CAN ban them from playing the game since casinos have that right, but you have to pay them any winnings they have accrued so far.


I said something along those lines too:




> The general principle with counting cards (in your head) is that it's not illegal, but it's still something you can normally get banned from a casino for.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_counting
> 
> Counting cards with an electronic device, however, tends to be criminal.
> 
> So (assuming they can't detect Data's positronic brain) if they looked at Data's behaviour and concluded "He's card-counting", the casino could ban him and yet not accuse him of cheating.

----------


## russdm

> Don't worry, things get better after Gene dies.


Be careful, that can be fighting words. Some fans view everything post Gene as not being Star trek.

But to be honest, this point that you say happens to be the most tragic thing in my opinion. That Gene became so obsessed with his vision of Star Trek based on what happened to him in the background of the movies that he took control of TNG and he made it lose the humanistic aspects that had been in the original series.

The tragedy of how seasons of TNG after he basically lost control were some of the best while much of what he made with the control over it was to be turning out to not the best.

But then that happened and it is something that we can't forget. Because it is a tragedy of what is going on.

----------


## Trafalgar

> I think the Klingon ceremony was the best thing of this episode. It is weird and uncomfortable, but I guess that's kind of the point here. Aliens got strange cultures and it makes sense to them if not us. Good job to Wesley on that.


I like it when alien races or cultures feel alien. I dislike it when they feel like humans with added nose ridges. This is my complaint about the way many races are played in D&D.

----------


## Bohandas

> The general principle with counting cards (in your head) is that it's not illegal, but it's still something you can normally get banned from a casino for.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_counting
> 
> Counting cards with an electronic device, however, tends to be criminal.
> 
> So (assuming they can't detect Data's positronic brain) if they looked at Data's behaviour and concluded "He's card-counting", the casino could ban him and yet not accuse him of cheating.


Data is positronic, not electronic, anyway

----------


## DigoDragon

> Be careful, that can be fighting words. Some fans view everything post Gene as not being Star trek.
> 
> But to be honest, this point that you say happens to be the most tragic thing in my opinion. That Gene became so obsessed with his vision of Star Trek based on what happened to him in the background of the movies that he took control of TNG and he made it lose the humanistic aspects that had been in the original series.


Oh I'm very aware how my stance can get me into a fight. But I am certain that by this point in time we're discussing, Trek outgrew any one person into something much greater. And I agree about the tragic part of your statement.





> I like it when alien races or cultures feel alien. I dislike it when they feel like humans with added nose ridges. This is my complaint about the way many races are played in D&D.


I've always liked animated Trek shows for having much more freedom to make aliens look alien. Acting alien... well, that needs good writing I suppose.

----------


## Trafalgar

> I've always liked animated Trek shows for having much more freedom to make aliens look alien. Acting alien... well, that needs good writing I suppose.


Don't forget the Horta from TOS. A Silicon based life form that dissolves rock is about as Alien as you can get.

----------


## Bohandas

> Don't forget the Horta from TOS. A Silicon based life form that dissolves rock is about as Alien as you can get.


it's less alien than the silicon lifeform from that one TNG episode

----------


## russdm

Ah great. This episode...

--------------

Season 2 Episode 15
Pen Pals
Stardate: 42695.3

[Plot]
the crew are investigating a bunch of planets breaking up. Riker says that wesley needs to do an away team. picard likes horses. Data gets some signals suggesting an attempt at communication.

Data discovers some girl and wesley runs the away team which determines that there is dilithium breaking up the planets

The main cast argue over whether they should help the girl that Data heard. after picard hears a direct plea for help, he decides to do so. the crew do something and erase the girl's memory so she won't remember being on the ship

[Rating]
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.
&
1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)

{Episode Commentary}
so this is episode that started the downward spiral of the insane prime directive that allows for abandoning entire civilizations to die if they don't have warp capability. Where before, the prime directive was about preventing interference in the development of a civilization, this new and improved prime directive lets you play God and pretty much write enough primitive civilizations because some cosmic plan says so.

it gets debated over here but later episodes will just with the prime directive being all holy and all sacred.

Even worse, the debate and general story seem to indicate that the Enterprise would have just done nothing had Data not managed to talk with the alien girl. Had that not happened and the crew found out about the girl's people, the crew would have let the girl's people just die out.

That is not a great way of showing the crew being as awesome as possible. Nor does it seem to make any sense with how the Prime directive was created before. I don't understand why the need to change it and why make it so lop-sidedly silly. "no even helping" for primivative, pre-warp societies? Really?

The idea behind this is all just nuts.

The stuff with wesley was all pretty good and worth a good rating. The basic "taking a piss" on the prime directive and making it worse than before in this episode makes the episode pretty bad.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 1
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 3 (Prime Directive)
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 4
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## Gnoman

The ossification of the Prime Directive works, _if_ you apply a heavy dose of reading between the lines. We see (in TOS) multiple examples of why the Directive would be created in the first place (the strange Nazi planet, the Gangster planet, the planet with the Khoms and the Yangs), and multiple examples of even limited contact causing serious harm (the proxy war planet, the simulated war planet, the planet run by a computer that Kirk blew up, the other planet run by a computer that Kirk blew up) despite the early Prime Directive being in place.

So you can easily headcanon a direct line of "Well, this proves we need to tighten it up" through "guess we need to tighten it up more" toward "still more" until you wind up with a dogmatic and inflexible Directive that is followed out of inertia and habit rather than reason. Unfortunately, no such thing is ever shown, and there's very little discussion of "maybe this whole thing needs another look". Which is a shame, because it could have been an excellent philosophical argument along the lines of "Measure Of A Man" or the later discussions in DS9.

----------


## russdm

> The ossification of the Prime Directive works, _if_ you apply a heavy dose of reading between the lines. We see (in TOS) multiple examples of why the Directive would be created in the first place (the strange Nazi planet, the Gangster planet, the planet with the Khoms and the Yangs), and multiple examples of even limited contact causing serious harm (the proxy war planet, the simulated war planet, the planet run by a computer that Kirk blew up, the other planet run by a computer that Kirk blew up) despite the early Prime Directive being in place.
> 
> So you can easily headcanon a direct line of "Well, this proves we need to tighten it up" through "guess we need to tighten it up more" toward "still more" until you wind up with a dogmatic and inflexible Directive that is followed out of inertia and habit rather than reason. Unfortunately, no such thing is ever shown, and there's very little discussion of "maybe this whole thing needs another look". Which is a shame, because it could have been an excellent philosophical argument along the lines of "Measure Of A Man" or the later discussions in DS9.


I can understand the points you made, but it feels to me that they simply went too far. In the episode, they are talking about the prime directive not letting them interfere at all due to what is a natural disaster and whether or not it is some part of some cosmic plan. Not about saving a civilization from its own actions that could result in its destruction. Because I can understand it making sense in that case. But a natural disaster that could be fixed, without any cultural interference and no way of seeing it be the work of aliens to the civilization being saved, That I don't get.

It happens in a later episode with Worf's adoptive brother, who beams up some people to the ship, because otherwise the entire civilization will die out.

Who made Starfleet the ones to be Judge/Jury/Executioneer of random civilizations that they have barely met? Even worse, it appears the free hand to do nothing exists if the civilization lacks Warp technology. So, basically a pre-warp civilization that faces some natural disaster gets abandoned simply while a civilization with warp technology may get to be rescued? Because they have the technology?

Does nobody in Starfleet see what is wrong about that entire theory? The writers certainly didn't and ran with it off a cliff.

It adds in another version of the "White Man's Burden" because Picard is white, and he gets to decide whether to allow a civvy to live based around some pretty flimsy reasoning. What if he encounters a bunch of primitive black Civvys that are facing natural disasters? Say, "the prime directive says do nothing", and have the viewers not feel in the least bit uneasiness or disturbed by that?

The Prime Directive didn't need to go to stuck an extreme that it did.

----------


## Seppl

> Who made Starfleet the ones to be Judge/Jury/Executioneer of random civilizations that they have barely met?


Wait! The whole point of it is, that they are _not_ Judge/Jury/Executioner. If they did anything, then they become the judge. They could not help everyone, and would have to decide who gets to live. So they let those die, whom they dislike and save everyone who is like themselves? Also, they are responsible for any chain-reaction down the line. Which can be rather big, considering whole civilizations are at stake. 



> Even worse, it appears the free hand to do nothing exists if the civilization lacks Warp technology. So, basically a pre-warp civilization that faces some natural disaster gets abandoned simply while a civilization with warp technology may get to be rescued? Because they have the technology?


The difference is that these other civilizations would be in diplomatic contact with them, and would be asking for help. Which opens both, the possibility to say no, and the possibility to ask for concessions. The help for the Klingon Empire in Star Trek 6 was very controversial, if it should be done, but in the end doing so brought the Klingon-Federation alliance, which shaped the politics of the quadrant for many decades.

There is a lot wrong with the Prime Directive but I feel you misunderstood the motivations. It's like the classic trolley problem, the Federation says "don't pull the lever", you say "pull the lever". There is no one true ethical answer to that problem.

----------


## Peelee

> Who made Starfleet the ones to be Judge/Jury/Executioneer of random civilizations that they have barely met?


... They're not, though. Ironically, they would be if they did what you are suggesting. Instead, the prime Directive completely removes them from being Judge and Jury, and unless they themselves are causing the calamity, they are not Executioner. Your suggestion would necessitate them being Judge and Jury, deciding whether or not to save some civilizations.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

To understand the basis of the Prime Directive, you need to be aware of the following points:

1) That alien civilizations rise and fall and eventually die out. It's happened throughout the history of the galaxy and will continue to happen. It will even happen to the Federation eventually. That's just a fact. Trying to change this would essentially be playing God.

2) The early days of human contact with more primitive civilizations saw those cultures severely contaminated or erased by their experience. This is viewed as harmful to their natural evolution, because it ruins their uniqueness.

3) Advancements in culture are assumed to go hand in hand with advances in science. That's been more or less true for most of human history IRL, although there's sometimes a little lag until the culture can adapt to big technological breakthroughs. Therefore, the possession of warp drive is considered the measuring stick for whether a planet is considered "advanced enough" to risk contacting (since they're going to run into people in space soon enough anyway). Earth itself was also first contacted by aliens after developing warp drive, so it's tradition.

Enterprise wasn't the best Star Trek show, but I think it did a pretty good job of showing why a non-interference directive was needed.

----------


## The Glyphstone

Haven't there been episodes where they skirted the letter of the Directive by intervening covertly to the primitives' benefit? AFAIK its not a violation if, for example, you detect an asteroid inbound to wipe a planet and deflect it off course before they ever know it was there.

----------


## hamishspence

> Haven't there been episodes where they skirted the letter of the Directive by intervening covertly to the primitives' benefit?


Yup. But at least in TNG, there was an element of "the Captain needs to be_ pushed into it_" - Data's contact in Pen Pals, Worf's brother's actions in Homeward, etc. I believe Janeway had several incidents of "only bent the Prime Directive because of her crew members disobeying orders".


It's mostly during the TOS era that the_ Captains_ are the ones jumping at the opportunity - Kirk commits to saving the planet in _The Paradise Syndrome_, and Georgiou is the driving force behind the saving of the aliens in the_ Discovery_ season 1 pilot.


Perhaps the TNG/DS9/Voyager era captains tend to interpret it differently?

----------


## russdm

> There is a lot wrong with the Prime Directive but I feel you misunderstood the motivations. It's like the classic trolley problem, the Federation says "don't pull the lever", you say "pull the lever". There is no one true ethical answer to that problem.


I think that the way that the Federation treats the Prime Directive, means that following it should be the only ethical action.

The Prime Directive to me, is what has been shown in the material so far, so from TOS and the movies and TAS. Kirk violated the Prime Directive in a few instances and there were shown reasons.




> ... They're not, though. Ironically, they would be if they did what you are suggesting. Instead, the prime Directive completely removes them from being Judge and Jury, and unless they themselves are causing the calamity, they are not Executioner. *Your suggestion would necessitate them being Judge and Jury, deciding whether or not to save some civilizations.*


But that is exactly what every instance of or nearly instance in TNG when the Prime Directive arguments come up, that the crew end up having to decide.





> Haven't there been episodes where they skirted the letter of the Directive by intervening covertly to the primitives' benefit? AFAIK its not a violation if, for example, you detect an asteroid inbound to wipe a planet and deflect it off course before they ever know it was there.





> Yup. But at least in TNG, there was an element of "the Captain needs to be_ pushed into it_" - Data's contact in Pen Pals, Worf's brother's actions in Homeward, etc. I believe Janeway had several incidents of "only bent the Prime Directive because of her crew members disobeying orders".
> 
> 
> It's mostly during the TOS era that the_ Captains_ are the ones jumping at the opportunity - Kirk commits to saving the planet in _The Paradise Syndrome_, and Georgiou is the driving force behind the saving of the aliens in the_ Discovery_ season 1 pilot.
> 
> 
> Perhaps the TNG/DS9/Voyager era captains tend to interpret it differently?


There was before, how the Prime Directive seemed to work in TOS/TAS and the movies and up to the recent episode. Which is all fine.

This episode starts to move the Prime Directive into the direction it goes as being all problematic and heavily debated. It completely went crazy.

Needing the captain to get pushed into doing things because people broke rules makes things questionable.

The whole matter is debated by the crew(main cast) in this episode. It gets treated as a law to always follow for later.

I think that the Prime Directive is simply one of those heavily debated things in the fanbase.

----------


## DigoDragon

> Haven't there been episodes where they skirted the letter of the Directive by intervening covertly to the primitives' benefit? AFAIK its not a violation if, for example, you detect an asteroid inbound to wipe a planet and deflect it off course before they ever know it was there.


I think there were times the Federation was actively spying on civs, sometimes with disguised agents. Though I seem to remember that in one of those cases it was because the civ was on the cusp of discovering FTL travel.

It was quite convenient to have so many humanoid-shaped alien species around, hee hee.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Tvtyrant

> I think there were times the Federation was actively spying on civs, sometimes with disguised agents. Though I seem to remember that in one of those cases it was because the civ was on the cusp of discovering FTL travel.
> 
> It was quite convenient to have so many humanoid-shaped alien species around, hee hee.


*Spoiler*
Show

 Yeah but in setting life was seeded from a humanoid space alien, so we look like them not the other way around.

----------


## Peelee

> I think there were times the Federation was actively spying on civs, sometimes with disguised agents. Though I seem to remember that in one of those cases it was because the civ was on the cusp of discovering FTL travel.
> 
> It was quite convenient to have so many humanoid-shaped alien species around, hee hee.


Yeah, there was that one episode with Riker that would have been really good if not for the rape that got tossed into the middle of it.

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 16
Q Who
Stardate: 42761.3

[Plot]
Picard gets hot cocoa splashed on him after meeting Geordi's new worker, Sonya Gomez. Picard is not thrilled, Q shows up to chat, Picard is even more less thrilled.

Q wants to join Picard, who doesn't buy that. Guinan has some moments with Q. Q decides to teach the crew a lesson and wipe off that smug look when Picard says that they can handle anything.

cue borg things and learning

Picard begs Q for help

Q lets Picard grovel then sends the crew back, having bloodied Picard with 18 dead crewmembers.

[Rating]
well

{Episode Commentary}
this is a big episode because it changes everything. it introduces the galaxy's biggest threat and ends up causing all sorts of issues down the road. the federation makes all kinds of plans. a federation captain commits high treason. a federation captain becomes an unwilling servant. a friend tortures a friend. another federation officer turns into a demigod

the impact of this episode is felt through all follow up seasons and series.

the antagonist in this episode will go through changes and villain decay, with decay being because they are way too powerful to use any. they will leave a lasting impression

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

note: i am not adding any new to trackers. this episode did not happen, we were not here.

Trackers)
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 1
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 3 (Prime Directive)
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 4
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## Peelee

> this is a big episode because it changes everything. it introduces the galaxy's biggest threat


Objection: The Kazon were not introduced until Voyager.

----------


## DigoDragon

This is the episode where Q hints that Guinan is more than just a bartender, right? I don't recall that thread ever going anywhere, at least not until Generations where they hint some more.

It was a pretty good episode in my opinion, although I agree that the Borg really decay quickly in the later seasons. I think the writers wrote themselves into a corner by having the Borg this strong out the gate.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

I'm just glad we got the creepy cyborg zombie Borg instead of the insect hive mind they were planning to do in season 1.

----------


## russdm

> Objection: The Kazon were not introduced until Voyager.


I am assuming that you are being sarcastic because If I remember correctly from Voyager, the Borg had decided that the Kazon were not worth bothering in any way. The Borg, who assimilate everybody they can, decided not to make the effort with the Kazon.

While these same Kazon are able to blow themselves up with trying to get a replicator working.

How exactly are the Kazon the Galaxy's biggest threat?

----------


## Peelee

> I am assuming that you are being sarcastic because If I remember correctly from Voyager, the Borg had decided that the Kazon were not worth bothering in any way. The Borg, who assimilate everybody they can, decided not to make the effort with the Kazon.
> 
> While these same Kazon are able to blow themselves up with trying to get a replicator working.
> 
> How exactly are the Kazon the Galaxy's biggest threat?


Yes, I was mocking the Klingons with the serial numbers filed off Kazon (and, incidentally, also kind of mocking _Voyager_ in how the Kazon were one of their biggest, constant threats).

----------


## The Glyphstone

I'd think the Krenim would be nominated as the biggest threat, but that would require us to acknowledge Year of Hell instead of pretending that episode got erased from the timeline.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Yes, I was mocking the Klingons with the serial numbers filed off Kazon (and, incidentally, also kind of mocking _Voyager_ in how the Kazon were one of their biggest, constant threats).


The Kazon were never heard from after the first two seasons (except for maybe a time travel episode or two), I wouldn't call them a "biggest threat" or even "constant". And half of their danger came from their alliance with Seska to begin with.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> I'm just glad we got the creepy cyborg zombie Borg instead of the insect hive mind they were planning to do in season 1.


Pretty sure the Zerg were inspired by the original plan for the Borg.

----------


## Trafalgar

> Pretty sure the Zerg were inspired by the original plan for the Borg.


The Zerg are actually based on Tyranids in 40k. Starcraft was originally supposed to be a 40k game. Terran=Space Marines. Protoss=Eldar, Tyranid=Zerg. I guess there was some falling out between Games Workshop and Blizzard and Blizzard changed things enough to prevent a lawsuit.

----------


## hamishspence

One theory I've seen is that, prior to GW's lawsuits over Warcraft, Starcraft was going to be a Star Wars based game, but after those lawsuits, Blizzard modified Starcraft to be more "GW-ish" specifically to express their_ annoyance at_ GW's litigations. 

Something like "Oh, so you're going to claim, unfairly, that we ripped you off? THIS is what it looks like when we rip you off".

----------


## Seppl

> One theory I've seen is that, prior to GW's lawsuits over Warcraft, Starcraft was going to be a Star Wars based game, but after those lawsuits, Blizzard modified Starcraft to be more "GW-ish" specifically to express their_ annoyance at_ GW's litigations. 
> 
> Something like "Oh, so you're going to claim, unfairly, that we ripped you off? THIS is what it looks like when we rip you off".


To be fair, the similarities between Warcraft and Warhammer were _not_ random coincidence. It was a genuine ripoff with things intentionally changed just enough to avoid legal trouble.

----------


## hamishspence

> To be fair, the similarities between Warcraft and Warhammer were _not_ random coincidence. It was a genuine ripoff with things intentionally changed just enough to avoid legal trouble.


I got the impression that this description:




> Starcraft was originally supposed to be a 40k game. Terran=Space Marines. Protoss=Eldar, Tyranid=Zerg. I guess there was some falling out between Games Workshop and Blizzard and Blizzard changed things enough to prevent a lawsuit.


applies better to WarCraft and Warhammer than Starcraft and 40K - that Blizzard genuinely thought they would have been able to get the licence to make a Warhammer game at the time.

Whereas with Starcraft they knew, before they even started work, that "doing a 40K game" was never going to happen.

----------


## Peelee

> The Kazon were never heard from after the first two seasons (except for maybe a time travel episode or two), I wouldn't call them a "biggest threat" or even "constant". And half of their danger came from their alliance with Seska to begin with.


Fair. I knew they were planned to be this series-long threat but it kind of fizzled when the fans hated them, the cast thought they were stupid, and the writers realized that either the ship wasn't actually going anywhere or the Kazon had one of the largest star empires in the galaxy.

----------


## DigoDragon

> I'd think the Krenim would be nominated as the biggest threat, but that would require us to acknowledge Year of Hell instead of pretending that episode got erased from the timeline.


Not worth it in my opinion. XD

Edit:
Really, the biggest threat should have been running out of fuel. I'd of had Voyager be more like Eastwood's "The man with no name" and shake down space pirates or corrupt folks, raid Borg scouts to get what they need to drive just a bit further towards home. Make this quadrent feel more like the lawless west by showing that the Borg destroyed all the big empires and federation equivalents, leaving scattered groups that weren't worth assimilating.

Could of had a really interesting arc on the origins of the Borg and find ways to exploit potential rift between classic Borg collective and the Borg queen collective.

Just spitballing what I wanted to see more of.

----------


## Peelee

> Not worth it in my opinion. XD
> 
> Edit:
> Really, the biggest threat should have been running out of fuel. I'd have had Voyager be more like Eastwood's "The man with no name" and shake down space pirates or corrupt folks, raid Borg scouts to get what they need to drive just a bit further towards home. Make this quadrent feel more like the lawless west by showing that the Borg destroyed all the big empires and federation equivalents, leaving scattered groups that weren't worth assimilating.
> 
> Could have had a really interesting arc on the origins of the Borg and find ways to exploit potential rift between classic Borg collective and the Borg queen collective.
> 
> Just spitballing what I wanted to see more of.


I'd be up on that.

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 17
Samaritan Snare
Stardate: 42779.1

[Plot]
The crew are heading to a star/pulsar cluster place to catalog/survey it. Picard wants to go, but Dr. Pulaski tells Picard that he has to go get his heart (artificial) replaced. Wesley is heading off to take some tests for Starfleet. Dr. Pulaski suggests that Picard head off as well. Picard would rather stay to overlook the star cluster and see it. Dr. Pulaski threatens to pull rank (I think), and Picard basically caves. She does have a point. Oh, and some distress call occurs

Picard boards the ship with Wesley and they head off to the Starbase. Wesley is very nervous about being on a shuttle with Picard. The two don't really saw much to each other, while Wesley pilots the ship. The shuttle is named the Einstein.

Meanwhile (In the Land of Nod/Stone Age) Riker goes off to find out what the distress call was about. It is just some overgrown fat babies having problems with their ship. (The Pakleds) They don't know why a thing is not working. (Cue the IT call stuff) Riker tries to solve, then decides to send over Geordi to fix things. Worf asks why send over the ship's chief Engineer. Riker doesn't give a good answer. Then Riker decides to not bother sending any security with Geordi. (Yeah)

Meanwhile (in the land of wonder), Picard is reading a book while Wesley pilots, and tries to make small talk/conservation. Picard spends little time doing so. it is clear that Picard is very stand-offish here. Picard expresses his frustration on having to go, and we learn with Wesley that Picard has an artificial heart that needs to be replaced. Wesley is curious about that, but Picard won't say anything.

Meanwhile (with our Pakleds), Riker has firmly grasped the Idiot Ball and hung on for dear life. Geordi fixes a bunch of things, then the Pakleds decide to take him hostage. Then they want Geordi to make them weapons. Riker doesn't do much of anything about this, taking a somewhat haphazard approach (like not just beaming over some security to stun the Pakleds). He has been told by Worf and Troi that the Pakleds are lying over something and clearly not to be trusted. Riker just rolls

Meanwhile, Picard is moving towards being less stand-offish. He talks about the fact that he has to get a replacement and how he doesn't like anybody knowing about his needing the heart and such. He is not happy about others knowing about it.

Picard and Wesley have some food together, and Picard, after another series of discussions, explains his reasoning for why he got a fake heart/artificial heart. He had an encounter with some Nausicaans, where he got stabbed through the heart. He had slightly provoked the confrontation (his description of what happens in this episode doesn't match up with what is shown in the Episode Tapestry) and fought. The experience of possibly dying forced some hard lessons on Picard, the main one being his Mortality (from Tapestry, according to Q). He was then a brash foolish arrogant young officer. (Hell-bent for Leather, Tapestry)

While on the shuttle, Picard has Wesley read a particular book and also mentions some other things that Wesley should be interested in, noting that Wesley should have more than just the Starfleet academy instruction. The items reveal some of Picard's own interests (which will come up later)

Meanwhile, Riker holds the idiot ball more and the Pakleds try to get Geordi to do things. It is figured out that things were setup to take someone from Starfleet hostage. Something about systems then about weapons/replicators and something. At some point here, Geordi is either zapped by one or 4 phasers (there are 4 pakleds standing around him holding a phaser each)

Meanwhile, Picard gets to the facility for his operation, and Wesley, who was asked (ordered, most like) by Dr. Pulaski, goes off for the operation. The Operation happens but complications ensue (Naturally) and so Dr. Pulaski arrives from the Enterprise to help assist. Picard finds out later, But Dr. Pulaski notes that she will not comment.

Meanwhile & During & Between; Events happen for Geordi to figure out some plan with the crew. They get the pakleds to back down and release Geordi. Then the Crew hears about the complications with Picard and head off.

After every, Wesley is being congratulated on his successful tests and he continues on for further study aboard the ship. We have some resolution of Picard's worries about how he would be percieved.

[Rating]
Non Picard & Wesley & Dr. Pulaski Storyline) 1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)
&
Picard & Wesley & Dr. Pulaski Storyline) 5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on

{Episode Commentary}
So first off, I forgot about how in Pen Pals, the actor playing Ensign Davies also ends up playing the role of Timor at the Trill Caves in Deep Space Nine. So there was that.

I liked everything about Picard & Wesley & Dr. Pulaski because it gives us some really great characterization of Picard, and we learn a considerable amount about him which will be followed up on. His love of Archaeology, of Philosophy, of Shakespear, of His History and how it shaped him. The deal with the heart will lead to the Episode Tapestry, which is one of my favorite episodes. Then we get good bonding with Picard with Wesley, encouraging Wesley, and Dr. Pulaski with Picard too. That part is all really good.

Sadly, the other half of the Episode is simply plain terrible. It requires giving Riker an idiot ball to get running, and the story even lampshades how the main characters do everything. Even worse, it follows out that the entire plot might have been changed up had Riker sent even one security guard with Geordi. That makes it all the worse

Then there is how Riker has both Worf and Troi telling him that Geordi is in danger, something that he has reason to ignore with Troi's empathic abilities. So Riker runs with scissors, and Geordi gets in danger. Then we have the Pakleds.

The Pakleds, like the Ferengi are heavily undermined in the episode, making them more irritating than threatening. There is no hidden cunning, or anything. The Pakleds are as stupid as they are made out to be. And some how they managed to get technology from both Klingons and Romulans. On the ship. There are no words to describe how incrediably embarassing to those races that has to be. I am guessing that either group of them involved ever decided that they wouldn't talk about it.

Then we have the fact that the story is frankly not that great really. It is Geordi focused, but there is almost no really compelling element/motion to the story.  I really just don't know what the actual point was supposed to have been. I started skipping through the parts with the Pakleds to get the parts with Picard & Wesley. A good storyline doesn't make you want to do that.

To be honest, you could have made another Geordi focused episode but completely gone without employing the Pakleds or any of their plotting. That said, I also refuse to accept as Canon anything that is said about Pakleds in the Lower Decks because i cannot buy it.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 1
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 3 (Prime Directive)
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 4
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 3 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## Velaryon

I agree entirely with your assessment of this episode. We got a lot of character development for Captain Picard, and I think this episode made Dr. Pulaski look like a million bucks. Wesley... was also there. But then the other half of the episode is nothing more than a dumb way to tie up the rest of the crew so that they have something to do. I guess it's nice to see Worf actually proved right for once, instead of being mostly there to suggest a harsh course of action just so Picard can dismiss it. That said, the way it was done really does make Riker look like a fool. It's amazing Worf doesn't drop a well-earned "I told you so" on Riker once they have Geordi back.

----------


## Kareeah_Indaga

I think I vaguely remember this one, are the Pakleds the we get things to make us go people?

----------


## Seppl

> I think I vaguely remember this one, are the Pakleds the we get things to make us go people?


Yes, I'm afraid so.

----------


## Peelee

I have no shame in loving the Pakleds (and loving them even more in _Lower Decks_).

----------


## DigoDragon

> I have no shame in loving the Pakleds (and loving them even more in _Lower Decks_).


I agree here. Pakleds were just terrible in TNG, but somehow Lower Decks manages to make them a real threat. Almost idiot-savant in some ways. 

It's also interesting that it's Captain Riker fighting them off in LD. Guess he finally learned.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Fun Fact: the Naussicaans are named after an anime.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Tvtyrant

> Fun Fact: the Naussicaans are named after an anime.


An anime about a post nuclear apocalypse no less.

----------


## DavidSh

> Fun Fact: the Naussicaans are named after an anime.


Probably true, but do we actually know for a fact that they weren't named after the original character in the _Odyssey_?

----------


## Peelee

> Probably true, but do we actually know for a fact that they weren't named after the original character in the _Odyssey_?


Memory Alpha claims it's both.

----------


## russdm

So, we are only 4 episodes away from ending the Season. Has been slightly quicker, since there are not as many. Season 1 had 25 Episodes and Season 2 has only 22. So, we are nearly finished with it.

----------------------------------------

Season 2 Episode 18
Up The Long Ladder
Stardate: 42823.2

[Plot]
The crew go to answer a distress call of an older sort, with Morse, and also Worf gets the Measles (?), at least the  Klingon Version of it. The distress call is for a colony of what end up being some space Irish, that play into Certain Stereotypes (Colm Meaney, who plays O'Brien is Irish, so He does some Meta-acting; Like the real actor's feelings are being reflected in how he plays Miles in this Episode)

Something went wrong for the Space Irish, so they need a ride somewhere. Then the crew also discover another group of the same original colonists, on another world, that have turned to cloning to maintain their numbers. Naturally, the colonists with the cloning have run into problems with their equipment and are hoping to have help from the crew, to both fix the equipment and get some new genetic material. The crew will offer one of those, and it is a major issue for the second. Not that the cloning colonists listen, since they try to later clone Riker and Dr. Pulaski (I guess)

Picard, of course, must find a way to solve the various issues of what to do with both groups. Despite that both groups have considerably diverged from the original colonial plan of the settlers, Picard decides to fuse the two groups of colonists together again. That would probably make an interesting element to follow up on.

Also, Worf gets help with his issue from Dr. Pulaski and he rewards her with a special Tea ceremony, naturally Klingon style. It is a rather nice moment, showing how much Dr. Pulaski has come to interact with her shipmates

Also, after spending time with Riker, the daughter of the Space Irish's Leader decides to charge some / Is encouraged by Picard.

[Rating]
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

{Episode Commentary}
Yeah, there are stereotypes, but I think that more of the focus is about the two missing colonies and what to do with them. Along with how to solve both groups problems: The Space Irish need a new place to live, and the Cloning Colonists don't have enough genetic material to keep doing that. So Picard is basically trying to come up with something that helps both groups out.

Naturally this ends up simply being joining them together. With some interesting implications towards the future.

The other part that appears a little bit, is all about the clones of Riker and Dr. Pulaski. Both clones get destroyed, and Riker doesn't like the idea of another Will Riker. (Though there will be the transporter duplicate in a later episode) It happens a little quickly to be noticed to be thought of, or I think that it goes through a little quickly for establishing enough to highlight or really notice.

The main part also really is watching Colm Meaney/Meany reacting in reality to everything about the Space Irish, and how funny that is. Then there is the crew interacting with the Space Irish. It is apparently intended to be some source of humor for the episode. Probably falls under how much offense is taken, but it does have one quality:

So, in Code of Honor, African Cultural Stereotypes appear. I think that it happens in that episode that those were treated as being way more seriously than in this episode. One (Code of Honor) took it seriously, while here the stereotypes are heavily played for laughs. To be honest, I don't know whether it works out or not.

Of course, the Space Irish don't have any real experience with technology, at least that of the ship, and so there is some of that present in the episode.

The stuff with Worf is somewhat interesting. He has a Klingon illness, and has a Klingon ceremony. It is a nice inclusion but it doesn't elevate or detract from the Episode in my opinion.

Overall, I would say that It feels like a pretty regular episode of Star Trek and how it usually goes. Also, Riker hooks up with daughter of the Space Irish's Leader in this episode.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 1
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 3 (Prime Directive)
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 4
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 3 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 2
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## Gnoman

> The main part also really is watching Colm Meaney/Meany reacting in reality to everything about the Space Irish, and how funny that is. Then there is the crew interacting with the Space Irish. It is apparently intended to be some source of humor for the episode. Probably falls under how much offense is taken, but it does have one quality:
> 
> So, in Code of Honor, African Cultural Stereotypes appear. I think that it happens in that episode that those were treated as being way more seriously than in this episode. One (Code of Honor) took it seriously, while here the stereotypes are heavily played for laughs. To be honest, I don't know whether it works out or not.


Melinda M. Snodgrass, who wrote the episode explained that she intended the episode to be a commentary on immigration, with the non-clones being the "filthy foreigners". In her pitch to Maurice Hurley, she used his own Irish heritage as a touchpoint to get an idea of what she was going for. He liked the idea, but insisted on making the non-clones into Space Irish. That's probably where the strangeness you're commenting on came from.

----------


## DigoDragon

Did they say where Worf got his illness? I'm curious because there's not really that many Klingons around him to interact with. Unless maybe the disease can be carried by a non-klingon?

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> Did they say where Worf got his illness? I'm curious because there's not really that many Klingons around him to interact with. Unless maybe the disease can be carried by a non-klingon?


There was in A Matter of Honor earlier in the season. Also the Packled ship had tech stolen from multiple civilizations and they did stop at a star base in that episode.

----------


## DigoDragon

> There was in A Matter of Honor earlier in the season. Also the Packled ship had tech stolen from multiple civilizations and they did stop at a star base in that episode.


Cool, that could explain it. Just curiosity that came up in my mind.

----------


## Wintermoot

> Did they say where Worf got his illness? I'm curious because there's not really that many Klingons around him to interact with. Unless maybe the disease can be carried by a non-klingon?


It turns out that Dr Pulaski was terrible at reusing hyposprays and cross contaminating sickbay. It was later theorized that she was secretly a serial killer using the cover of medical officer to disguise her "angel of mercy" murders. One of the many reasons she was kicked off the enterprise and out of starfleet. She probably infected Worf on purpose to "study" the alien disease while she had the perfect puppet for her sick games. 

At least that's my head canon.

----------


## DigoDragon

> At least that's my head canon.


You have a very interesting headcanon and I'm willing to subscribe to the newsletter.

I guess Dr. Polaski doesn't get a lot of love in the fandom. Maybe I'm too used to grumpy doctors that she didn't really bother me much as a character. Definitely not a fav, but not against her either.

----------


## Ionathus

> I guess Dr. Polaski doesn't get a lot of love in the fandom. Maybe I'm too used to grumpy doctors that she didn't really bother me much as a character. Definitely not a fav, but not against her either.


In my experience, "TV Grumpy" only works if you have other redeeming characteristics. That makes it a natural choice to give your Grumpy character an altruistic occupation (doctor, firefighter, teacher, somebody who helps people), because BOOM, you've got baked-in sympathy and can make them grumpy without necessarily requiring too much charisma in the portrayal.

However, you still need _some_ charisma no matter how altruistic the occupation, because this is a TV show and the acting has to be good and make sense. Pulaski never made sense for me: she always stuck out in the scene, didn't seem to fit, didn't seem to "get it" with the rest of the crew. Star Trek: TNG's whole schtick was idealism -- every single main character is a good person, who tries their best, and the worst they ever do is process some complicated emotions improperly. There's really just no room for cynics.

Pulaski would probably make sense in another show, but in TNG her cardinal sin was "not fitting in."

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 19
Manhunt
Stardate: 42859.2

[Plot]
the crew pick up some fish people to go to a conference. then the crew end up picking up Lwaxana Troi. who has decided to flirt with and chase after Picard, who decides to hide in the holodeck. later a few others join him, including Mrs. Troi.

also turns out the fish people are planning to blow something up. thanks to Mrs. Troi and her sensing talents

[Rating]
?

{Episode Commentary}
i don't how to really rate this episode because I am not sure whether I am supposed to take it seriously or not. Mrs. Troi has a thing, and Picard hides away in a Dixon Hill Holoprogram, while the fish guys hang around in the background. Then there is the whole conference, which is not discussed at all, making the fish people wanting to blow up there, not make any sense at all. Why do have the delegates from the fish people? why is the conference happening?

the whole episode is just about Mrs Troi, doing things. I just don't know, is this episode intended to be serious? comedic? just completely random? Yeah....

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 1
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 3 (Prime Directive)
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 4
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 3 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 2
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

Any episode with Diana's mother Lwaxana Troi should be handled the same way Picard does, by running and hiding. She is the only thing in the Galaxy that Picard truly fears.

----------


## DigoDragon

> Pulaski would probably make sense in another show, but in TNG her cardinal sin was "not fitting in."


Fair assessment. I went back to look at her episodes and refresh my memory; I can see how she doesn't quite gel with the rest of the cast. Like, she's McCoy's grump but without the heart.





> Any episode with Diana's mother Lwaxana Troi should be handled the same way Picard does, by running and hiding. She is the only thing in the Galaxy that Picard truly fears.


Isn't Lwaxana's actress also the voice of the ship's computer? I know she's been around forever in the Trek circles.

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> Isn't Lwaxana's actress also the voice of the ship's computer? I know she's been around forever in the Trek circles.


You are indeed correct Majel Barrett Roddenberry was the voice of the ships computer.

----------


## Seppl

> You are indeed correct Majel Barrett Roddenberry was the voice of the ships computer.


Also a bunch of other roles, most notably Nurse Chapel from TOS, and the first officer (what was her name?) in the TOS-pilot.

----------


## Ionathus

Holy crap, Lwaxana Troi was married to Gene Roddenberry and involved all over the Star Trek franchise

----------


## Aedilred

> *Family Fun -  So....the Enterprise has families on it, and that is just a horrible idea.  The ship can be called into battle, or worse just get attacked out of the blue.  But OF COURSE we never see a photon torpedo blow up classroom 1 and kill a bunch of kids.  And even worse, every so often _everyone on the ship de-evolves or something_, but the show just skips the horror of little Billy and Sally becoming frogs or whatever.


This is from page 1, so I apologise, but I have just started DS9 and there's a point where someone (Mrs O'Brien?) comments on how it's not safe for a child to be given the same freedom on a space station that they have on a starship. Having just watched most of the (TOS/TNG) movies, where the starships are, if not primarily, then at least substantially, _war_ships, while Deep Space 9 is, as per the series pilot, an apparently unarmed civilian/administrative entity not expected to be subject to attack, that struck me as rather odd. 

So the quoted post resonated rather. 

I suppose the point was supposed to be that there's more trouble for kids to get into on a space station: on a starship, everyone is a member of Starfleet and therefore nominally trustworthy, whereas on a space station there are criminal elements and shady characters. But even so, should the kids be on starships at all? Is there anything more dangerous on a space station than there is in a regular city?

----------


## Peelee

> This is from page 1, so I apologise, but I have just started DS9 and there's a point where someone (Mrs O'Brien?) comments on how it's not safe for a child to be given the same freedom on a space station that they have on a starship. Having just watched most of the (TOS/TNG) movies, where the starships are, if not primarily, then at least substantially, _war_ships, while Deep Space 9 is, as per the series pilot, an apparently unarmed civilian/administrative entity not expected to be subject to attack, that struck me as rather odd. 
> 
> So the quoted post resonated rather. 
> 
> I suppose the point was supposed to be that there's more trouble for kids to get into on a space station: on a starship, everyone is a member of Starfleet and therefore nominally trustworthy, whereas on a space station there are criminal elements and shady characters. But even so, should the kids be on starships at all? Is there anything more dangerous on a space station than there is in a regular city?


While I agree with you, federation starship are not warships. The first dedicated warship in a while was the _Defiant_ in DS9.

----------


## Misery Esquire

> Having just watched most of the (TOS/TNG) movies, where the starships are, if not primarily, then at least substantially, _war_ships, while Deep Space 9 is, as per the series pilot, an apparently unarmed civilian/administrative entity not expected to be subject to attack, that struck me as rather odd.


I think that goes part in parcel with the odd way Starfleet is essentially a mix of reigning government, the civil service, a research university/institute, and the military.

Almost every one* of their ships is armed for combat, laid out for freight and personelle movement, and heavily outfitted with scientific instrumentation and laboratories.

Specialization is dead, and everyone seems to be Starfleet or Starfleet-adjacent in the Federation; Roddenberry and Heinlein (depending on era) could probably see each other's philosophical gardens from the front porch - even if they're on opposite sides of the street.

*hi, Defiant &co.

----------


## Peelee

> I think that goes part in parcel with the odd way Starfleet is essentially a mix of reigning government


Starfleet is not the Federation, and the Federation is not Starfleet.

----------


## Misery Esquire

> Starfleet is not the Federation, and the Federation is not Starfleet.


Isn't it? Hm. I thought I remembered all the government councils we see being made up primarily of admirals, but I guess if that's a faulty memory then the rest of it collapses on itself pretty well.

----------


## Wintermoot

> Starfleet is not the Federation, and the Federation is not Starfleet.


I mean... you SAY that... and I generally agree with you that its MEANT to work that way... but the various series and movies often blurred the line so much there wasn't even one anymore. 

If you try to reconcile the various canon, then starfleet becomes so entwined with the federation government that they are almost indistinguishable. Starfleet Admirals are ALWAYS making decisions that belong to the federation executive in any reasonable circumstance.

I mean if you want to start with "starfleet is the military arm of the federation". Great. That's the start. But they also do all the scientific surveys, exploration, etc. I can think of a couple episodes where starfleet dealt with "civilian" survey teams, but 99% of the time the survey teams were made up of starfleet personnel. 

So now Starfleet is both military and scientific exploration arms of the federation. But ALSO how many times did we see starfleet doing first contact, acting as ambassadors and as mediators? creating trade agreements? 

At some point 100% of the work of the civilian government of the federation became the purview of starfleet. And at that point they became fundamentally the same thing except on paper. You can mentally add in "starfleet is doing this action on behalf of the federation which has empowered them to do this mediation or trade agreement or whatever" in order to mentally reconcile it, but its never made clear and often contradicts that kind of mental reconciliation attempt.

----------


## Peelee

> I mean... you SAY that... and I generally agree with you that its MEANT to work that way... but the various series and movies often blurred the line so much there wasn't even one anymore. 
> 
> If you try to reconcile the various canon, then starfleet becomes so entwined with the federation government that they are almost indistinguishable. Starfleet Admirals are ALWAYS making decisions that belong to the federation executive in any reasonable circumstance.
> 
> I mean if you want to start with "starfleet is the military arm of the federation". Great. That's the start. But they also do all the scientific surveys, exploration, etc. I can think of a couple episodes where starfleet dealt with "civilian" survey teams, but 99% of the time the survey teams were made up of starfleet personnel. 
> 
> So now Starfleet is both military and scientific exploration arms of the federation. But ALSO how many times did we see starfleet doing first contact, acting as ambassadors and as mediators? creating trade agreements? 
> 
> At some point 100% of the work of the civilian government of the federation became the purview of starfleet. And at that point they became fundamentally the same thing except on paper. You can mentally add in "starfleet is doing this action on behalf of the federation which has empowered them to do this mediation or trade agreement or whatever" in order to mentally reconcile it, but its never made clear and often contradicts that kind of mental reconciliation attempt.


Starfleet is first and foremost exploratory, but also covers research and defense. Starfleet also predates the Federation, which might explain its rather hefty pull in the Federation.

----------


## Aedilred

Yeah, while "Starfleet's mission has always been one of peace" (_pace_ Kirk) it's also clear that their ships are expected to be combat-ready at the drop of a hat without reinforcement and even the non-specialist warships are heavily armed. Indeed, in the DS9 pilot itself, the _Enterprise_ is considered (by both sides) to be sufficient deterrent to hold multiple Cardassian warships at bay. 

There are probably numerous other examples from the various series, but overall the trend seems to be that a Starfleet ship at full strength is at least a match for even specialised warcraft of other fleets - the only exceptions of which I'm aware being the Borg and some of the biggest Romulan vessels. 

While my knowledge of Trek is very movie-heavy, "calling for backup" also doesn't seem to be a thing Starfleet captains do in combat situations unless heavily outmatched. Kirk needed help from the _Excelsior_ against the prototype in _The Undiscovered Country_ but that's the only occasion I can think of and even then Sulu seemed to do that on his own initiative rather than being specifically asked for help.

----------


## Peelee

> Yeah, while "Starfleet's mission has always been one of peace" (_pace_ Kirk) it's also clear that their ships are expected to be combat-ready at the drop of a hat without reinforcement and even the non-specialist warships are heavily armed. Indeed, in the DS9 pilot itself, the _Enterprise_ is considered (by both sides) to be sufficient deterrent to hold multiple Cardassian warships at bay. 
> 
> There are probably numerous other examples from the various series, but overall the trend seems to be that a Starfleet ship at full strength is at least a match for even specialised warcraft of other fleets - the only exceptions of which I'm aware being the Borg and some of the biggest Romulan vessels. 
> 
> While my knowledge of Trek is very movie-heavy, "calling for backup" also doesn't seem to be a thing Starfleet captains do in combat situations unless heavily outmatched. Kirk needed help from the _Excelsior_ against the prototype in _The Undiscovered Country_ but that's the only occasion I can think of and even then Sulu seemed to do that on his own initiative rather than being specifically asked for help.


This was one of the (many) things I liked about _Enterprise_ - it offered great justification for the ships to be heavily armed. Exploratory ships are likely to be far away from support, going into unknown regions with unknown dangers. Makes sense to be heavily armed and armored for when things don't work out all peaceful-like. Not to mention the wars with the Klingon Empire and Romulan Star Empire. It also stands to reason that the Federation would have a good advantage on tech, considering their incorporation of other cultures (the Klingons and Romulans also had other cultures in their empires but relied on subjugation and slavery).

----------


## Gnoman

In ages past, navies _were_ used for most of those functions. Darwin's ship was not the _HMS_ Beagle for no reason. Exploration and survey work was done by government ships even when they weren't formally part of the navy, many "first contacts" between civilizations were via naval ships, and sending your ambassador on a warship as a show of power was common.

Starfleet seems kind of strange to people used to a Navy that is only for fighting, but that's not the historical standard.

----------


## Devonix

> Fair assessment. I went back to look at her episodes and refresh my memory; I can see how she doesn't quite gel with the rest of the cast. Like, she's McCoy's grump but without the heart.


Gonna disagree.  Outside of her start on the season she actually does have heart.  She's one of the characters that always jumps to the defense of other races and characters.  and outside of her starting abrasiveness with Data, she actually does treat him with growing respect. 

Basically the problem was she was designed to have a maccoy/Spock relationship with Data, but Data as a character doesn't punch back the way Spock did. So it comes off as mean rather than the way it did with Maccoy.  When what she says is actually far tamer than Maccoy

----------


## Peelee

> So it comes off as mean rather than the way it did with Maccoy.  When what she says is actually far tamer than Maccoy


McCoy comes off as pretty damned mean. Even Spock admits he's had it with McCoy's racist bull**** in the episode when Spock actually displayed emotion.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> This was one of the (many) things I liked about _Enterprise_ - it offered great justification for the ships to be heavily armed. Exploratory ships are likely to be far away from support, going into unknown regions with unknown dangers. Makes sense to be heavily armed and armored for when things don't work out all peaceful-like.


I agree that Enterprise did a good job of showing why a solitary exploration vessel needs to have enough armaments to defend itself and others. Even in the TNG era of Star Trek, 200 years later, the Enterprise often finds itself alone against unexpected dangers and can only rarely call in Federation reinforcements or a favor from the Klingon Empire to help them out.

Starfleet ship assignments, for whatever reason, just don't give overlapping areas to exploration ships. In their core territories, you can easily get support from a nearby ship or starbase, but out on the edges each ship is pretty much on its own.

----------


## DigoDragon

> I suppose the point was supposed to be that there's more trouble for kids to get into on a space station


Like getting kidnapped and taken on an outbound ship from the station.





> While I agree with you, federation starship are not warships. The first dedicated warship in a while was the _Defiant_ in DS9.


Indeed. Space is just incredibly hostile and starships need armaments to defend themselves from God knows what out there (even before taking into account hostile civilizations with armed ships).

There was an old paper written by some NASA engineers about how human exploration to the farthest reaches of our solar system would likely need things like shields and lasers to protect the crew from radiation and errant objects.

----------


## Gnoman

The ships defenses are barely enough to keep out some of the natural hazards they deal with from time to time, and there's a few cases where being able to direct large amounts of energy with precision prove quite useful for peaceful purposes.

----------


## Velaryon

> I suppose the point was supposed to be that there's more trouble for kids to get into on a space station: on a starship, everyone is a member of Starfleet and therefore nominally trustworthy, whereas on a space station there are criminal elements and shady characters. But even so, should the kids be on starships at all? Is there anything more dangerous on a space station than there is in a regular city?


Space stations probably have a lot more people coming & going than starships, many of whom are not Starfleet members. That's even more the case on DS9 which is on the fringe of Federation space and not even really Starfleet property. Add in the various strange and unknown beings that pass through such a place, and it'd be fairly easy for a kid to get whisked aboard some random freighter which could be out of the system before anyone even notices the child is missing.

Is there more danger than a regular city? Probably not a modern one, but almost certainly more than a 24th century utopian Earth city.





> Gonna disagree.  Outside of her start on the season she actually does have heart.  She's one of the characters that always jumps to the defense of other races and characters.  and outside of her starting abrasiveness with Data, she actually does treat him with growing respect. 
> 
> Basically the problem was she was designed to have a maccoy/Spock relationship with Data, but Data as a character doesn't punch back the way Spock did. So it comes off as mean rather than the way it did with Maccoy.  When what she says is actually far tamer than Maccoy


I agree with this. I've been rewatching TNG along with this thread (though I've gotten a bit ahead and slowed down waiting for the discussion to catch up), and one of my surprising takeaways is that I like Dr. Pulaski a _lot_ more than I remembered. She does pick on Data a few times, but frankly I think the amount of this is pretty overblown, and she shows significant improvement in that attitude throughout the season. I think they figured out fairly quickly that recreating the Spock/Bones dynamic wasn't working, and once they started moving away from it she really started growing as a character. And frankly, that's more of a character arc than Dr. Crusher usually has, at least until they start leaning more heavily on her as a potential love interest for Captain Picard. And even then, I think I prefer the more adversarial relationship between Pulaski and Picard, because endless will they/won't they relationships on TV shows just don't do anything for me.





> I agree that Enterprise did a good job of showing why a solitary exploration vessel needs to have enough armaments to defend itself and others. Even in the TNG era of Star Trek, 200 years later, the Enterprise often finds itself alone against unexpected dangers and can only rarely call in Federation reinforcements or a favor from the Klingon Empire to help them out.
> 
> Starfleet ship assignments, for whatever reason, just don't give overlapping areas to exploration ships. In their core territories, you can easily get support from a nearby ship or starbase, but out on the edges each ship is pretty much on its own.


No kidding. "We're the only Federation ship in the area" is the justification for seemingly half of the Enterprise's adventures. It sure is a good thing that even the exploration-focused Starfleet ships are better fighters than even dedicated military ships from most other species, huh?

----------


## russdm

In regards to the Undiscovered Country: Spock says that Kirk always thought that Starfleet's mission was one of peace. He basically cuts Kirk off who then starts to give an answer of not mincing words with his first officer but Chang says something that stops the conversation. From what I recall.

Also for the movie is that the original script had Sulu rescuing the other crew but William Shatner argued against it so it ended up getting changed. Then thanks to Shatner that it took so long for a captain Sulu. There were promotion scenes in wrath of Khan but Shatner flubbed them and so they got cut.

Shatner had a massive ego and still does.

-------------

I think that the bit with Dr. Pulaski might have been overblown with the same issue that Wesley had. Episodic. I think that TNG was aired weekly, wasn't it? So you had a whole week to talk about what happened in the episode. With streaming services, I can watch TNG in a relatively short time between episodes. That makes it easier for handling things.

Also I think that the details about dr. Pulaski may have gotten overblown in the telling. Haven't added more to the trackers for her and Data.

I think that had dr. Pulaski gotten more time and dr Crusher had not come back as soon, dr Pulaski could have been explored more.

As it is, Crusher ends up being more dr Franklin of Babylon 5 than any kind of real interesting character.

Then we get episodes for Crusher later in the show like the alien love space ghost. Because that was something we needed to see. I find it pretty funny that the episode got shared throughout Starfleet as it gets brought up in Lower Decks. Did Crusher not ask for privacy over what happened with her crew? Or did she just file a report and hope that no one would notice?

----------


## Arcane_Secrets

> The ships defenses are barely enough to keep out some of the natural hazards they deal with from time to time, and there's a few cases where being able to direct large amounts of energy with precision prove quite useful for peaceful purposes.


How many times have they solved planetary-scale problems that way, like preventing impacts or stabilizing tectonic plates, et cetera?

(Actually, maybe there should be a counter for this, although I think those episodes come up a bit later in the series...)

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 20
The Emissary
Stardate: 42901.3

[Plot]
the crew are playing poker and Worf is doing well. we get the line, "Klingons never bluff.", and we don't get to see what was going to happen. the crew suddenly have a mission to go. the crew get a probe that contains a former love interest of Worf's, K'Ehleyr

she is there for helping with a Klingon ship that is going to be waking up the vessel's crew. they went to sleep during when there was no peace. she is all for just blowing the  ship up. Picard wants other options and so assigns her to work with Worf and later also Data.

sparks go off however, so she goes to the holdeck and runs Worf's exercise program. Worf joins her, they end up knocking boots, Klingon style. Worf totally is up to get hitched and she says no. things go totally awkward and they spar some, verbally.

the crew make it to the ship and it is awake. the ship tries to attack the crew and also show that it is an old ship. Worf ends up bluffing the Klingons. then she leaves amicably.

[Rating]
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on
Hidden Gems

{Episode Commentary}
This is another Klingon episode, and features Klingons. It however is really mainly about Worf and his former love interest, who is Half-Klingon. We get some sense through scenes what that is like. It makes for some charactizition. Then we have the issue the two's relationship.

This episode is probably the first that highlights that Worf was raised by Humans and so is not approaching Klingon Culture the same as other Klingons. Worf interacted with Humans and was raised by them, so he developed a Human-Centric Way of being Klingon. He didn't ingest or absorb full Klingon Beliefs. In the episodes of the Klingon Civil War, Worf complains about spending time with the enemies of Gowron, and also about Gowron fighting one of his own men, both things that make sense from a human perspective but not from the Klingons' one.

This being raised by humans really influences how Worf deals with being a Klingon. He may be heavily overcompensating as a result. Or maybe just trying to prove he is truly Klingon despite being dressed in a Starfleet  uniform.

This episode also put in place points that would pay off to effect the entire rest of the franchise, even more so than the Borg did. A child gets produced from this, but also, it gives Worf his motivation for Killing Duras later on. It also  opens the pathway to Gowron to became Head of the Klingon Empire and everything that follows. Had there been no relationship or kid, then Worf would have needed some other reason/way to fight and kill Duras. Then having helped Gowron take power, Worf ends up removing him from power  too. SO this is probably one of the most impactful episodes in the series.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 3 (Prime Directive)
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 5
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 4 (Suzie Plakson)
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 2
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## DigoDragon

This is one of those episodes I barely remember. Was a reason given for the crew being asleep?

----------


## hamishspence

The implication is that the use of cryogenic sleep for some ships during the last Federation/Klingon War was normal:

*Spoiler*
Show

K'EHLEYR: Two days ago, Starbase Three Three Six received an automated transmission from a Klingon ship, the T'Ong. That ship was sent out over seventy five years ago.
RIKER: When the Federation and the Klingon Empire were still at war.
K'EHLEYR: The message was directed to the Klingon High Command. It said only that the ship was returning home and was about to reach its awakening point.
PICARD: Which suggests that the crew had been in cryogenic sleep for that long journey.
K'EHLEYR: Exactly.
RIKER: And when this crew is revived?
K'EHLEYR: We'll have a ship full of Klingons who think the war is still going on.
PICARD: So our task is to find the ship, and tell the Klingons they're no longer at war.

----------


## Wintermoot

I just want to say that K'ehleyr was a GREAT character played by a fantastic actress and got major short shrift on this series by being yet another female character killed for no reason but to drive the male's plotline. A plotline that leads to one of the most hated recurring characters/plotlines in two series (Alexander) 

Ah well. Life as a recurring character I guess. Still, she's on my top five list of star trek recurrings. 

Worf being the worst sort of absentee father is hilariously terrible.

----------


## Ionathus

K'ehleyr was a fantastic character and I'm so annoyed at her inevitable fridging later on. Worf in general had one of the most interesting arcs in the show, because I feel like the writers really put in the work to flesh out Klingon society rather than just having them be another planet of hats culture. I love the way Worf comes at his Klingon heritage, sometimes questioning it as a human and sometimes trying overly hard to embrace it because he wants to *prove* that he's a real Klingon. Even through to the final season, we were still getting great scenes with Worf explaining/demonstrating what his Klingon heritage meant to him. 

Alexander truly was awful and irritating, but I honestly liked most of Worf's parts in the Alexander scenes. Worf not knowing how to be a dad is great storytelling. I just wish they'd found a better way to portray his child.

----------


## Seppl

> The implication is that the use of cryogenic sleep for some ships during the last Federation/Klingon War was normal:
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> K'EHLEYR: Two days ago, Starbase Three Three Six received an automated transmission from a Klingon ship, the T'Ong. That ship was sent out over seventy five years ago.
> RIKER: When the Federation and the Klingon Empire were still at war.
> K'EHLEYR: The message was directed to the Klingon High Command. It said only that the ship was returning home and was about to reach its awakening point.
> PICARD: Which suggests that the crew had been in cryogenic sleep for that long journey.
> ...


That explanation always felt so off, because it does not explain anything. They were probably not sent as soldiers to strike a specific Federation outpost 75 years in the future, that does not make sense. They are not on a long term science/exploration mission because a) Klingons, b) why send a warship?, and c) what kind of mission is that? The best explanation I can come up with is that they are a dead man's switch, to take revenge on the Federation in case the Klingon Empire got defeated. But what can they expect one ship with conventional weapons to do? And why do they not stop and check first, how the Klingon Empire is currently doing?


Still a good episode, but that plot hook never made sense to me.

----------


## DigoDragon

> And why do they not stop and check first, how the Klingon Empire is currently doing?


Yeah, you have several good points. I would find it much more agreeable if it was a crippled ship thought to have been lost and the crew went into cryo sleep hoping to get rescued (there's honor in death through combat, but maybe not so much in death through starvation).

----------


## Aedilred

> That explanation always felt so off, because it does not explain anything. They were probably not sent as soldiers to strike a specific Federation outpost 75 years in the future, that does not make sense. They are not on a long term science/exploration mission because a) Klingons, b) why send a warship?, and c) what kind of mission is that? The best explanation I can come up with is that they are a dead man's switch, to take revenge on the Federation in case the Klingon Empire got defeated. But what can they expect one ship with conventional weapons to do? And why do they not stop and check first, how the Klingon Empire is currently doing?
> 
> 
> Still a good episode, but that plot hook never made sense to me.


This might be something that's a product of its era. Two years later, they'd make _The Undiscovered Country_, which is basically about the end of the Cold War, and while a lot happened between summer 1989 and winter 1991, the idea that this long period of cold war might be coming to an end was probably already on the mind. The Klingons in _The Emissary_ represent largely the same thing that Shinzon does in _Nemesis_ - as Darren Franich puts it, the Cold War superweapon unfrozen into peacetime - something which turned up a few times in the thriller genre during the 1990s. There are also, of course, echoes of the Japanese holdouts in this, too, and while there weren't any confirmed instances of them during the 80s they were much more in currency than they are now. 

So I would be inclined to read it as allegory, with the cryosleep an admittedly slightly clumsy attempt to give it a sci-fi gloss: how else to explain why they've been out of contact for so long without invoking time travel (as in _Trek 09_)?

Particularly if we take the "Japanese holdout" approach, some of the questions can be answered by inference by looking at those. Maybe they're not the only crew out there: the Klingons (or a faction of them) set up a number of sleepers for the same purpose. Maybe the others were destroyed in the interim, or only appear off-screen. Perhaps it was a covert op by someone like Chang, which was supposed to have more follow-through but in fact they only sent out one ship before the programme was cancelled for whatever reason. Maybe the idea was that they did have a specific mission which makes sense, but was more effort to come up with than would have been worthwhile given its script importance. Maybe there was a misconstruction of orders somewhere along the line. And on a mission like this, they consider their orders to be clear and don't need to seek clarification: indeed, to do so would just be providing an opportunity for those Federation devils to deceive them. Some of the Japanese holdouts were notoriously difficult to convince to surrender, and required direct orders from a commanding officer they recognised before they would stand down. I can imagine these Klingons being the same.

----------


## Seppl

> Maybe there was a misconstruction of orders somewhere along the line.


Sending a warship on a 75 year trip due to clerical error. Yes, I can accept that.

----------


## Kantaki

> Sending a warship on a 75 year trip due to clerical error. Yes, I can accept that.


Sounds believable, if a bit extreme, yeah.
Doubly so since klingons are warriors not mathriors. :Small Amused: 
They do violence, not numbers.  :Small Wink:

----------


## Velaryon

K'Ehleyr represents one of the great missed opportunities of this show. She has excellent scenes with Worf during both episodes she appears in, but introduces plot complications that the writers were either unwilling or unable to deal with properly. They've established the Enterprise-D as a ship on which families reside. One of the bridge officers is the teenage son of the ship's chief medical officer! 

Worf sending Alexander to be raised by his grandparents is a contrivance for the show's convenience because they didn't want to add a child to the main cast, but it does a disservice to Worf's character in the process and throws away lots of potential drama. It might have been a better idea for them not to kill off K'Ehleyr but have her harmed in some other way that would provoke the same reaction from Worf. That would allow him to let Alexander go with her, while also leaving open the door for more appearances from her.

It's a shame they fridged her, the butterfly effect from it really messed up some things that could have been great.

----------


## Ionathus

> Worf sending Alexander to be raised by his grandparents is a contrivance for the show's convenience because they didn't want to add a child to the main cast, but it does a disservice to Worf's character in the process and throws away lots of potential drama.


I have good (bad?) news about Alexander's long-term living situation...

I didn't watch it when it was coming out, but had Wesley already been catching flak as a Marty Stu kid-interest character? Or is that just everyone's reaction with the benefit of hindsight? If audiences at the time were already making noise about that character, it would make sense that they didn't want *another* _even more immature and grating_ child to join the "main" cast.

----------


## tomandtish

> This is from page 1, so I apologise, but I have just started DS9 and there's a point where someone (Mrs O'Brien?) comments on how it's not safe for a child to be given the same freedom on a space station that they have on a starship. Having just watched most of the (TOS/TNG) movies, where the starships are, if not primarily, then at least substantially, _war_ships, while Deep Space 9 is, as per the series pilot, an apparently unarmed civilian/administrative entity not expected to be subject to attack, that struck me as rather odd. 
> 
> So the quoted post resonated rather. 
> 
> I suppose the point was supposed to be that there's more trouble for kids to get into on a space station: on a starship, everyone is a member of Starfleet and therefore nominally trustworthy, whereas on a space station there are criminal elements and shady characters. But even so, should the kids be on starships at all? Is there anything more dangerous on a space station than there is in a regular city?


It's also important to note that DS-9 is probably a bit outside the norm. It's run by the Federation but is Bajoran territory, and is in a section of space where's there's still a lot of tension and indeed an expectation that there will probably be military issues with the Cardassians. 

Not counting visitors (usually as part of an episode plot) there were only a handful of children on the show, with Jake, Nog, and (later) Ziyal* the only regulars. 

*Not sure Ziyal's age is ever stated, but I assume she's about 15-16 by human standards when Dukat and Kira find her. 

And yeah, I can agree with the argument that kids probably shouldn't be on ships at all (or at least the Enterprise). Given how many times the ship is in serious trouble it really isn't a safe place.

----------


## Aedilred

> I didn't watch it when it was coming out, but had Wesley already been catching flak as a Marty Stu kid-interest character? Or is that just everyone's reaction with the benefit of hindsight? If audiences at the time were already making noise about that character, it would make sense that they didn't want *another* _even more immature and grating_ child to join the "main" cast.


Given it was pre-internet, it's hard now to get one's head around how hatred from the fandom would be meaningfully expressed (fanzines?). Conventions, I guess. But in any case the contemporary perception was that Wesley was hated, yes, to the extent that when Wil Wheaton left the show, the fan-hate was widely considered to be a factor (although he's subsequently said that it was more that the producers didn't let him take on other roles while he was on TNG, so he had to leave for his career). 

Wheaton has subsequently said though that while the negative reaction was hurtful, the character did get a positive reaction from some fans, particularly younger ones: as usual, it might have been the angrier party that was louder.

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 21
Peak Performance
Stardate: 42923.4

[Plot]
the crew pick up a guy and get a starship to do some wargames. Riker will command the starship and he gets to pick some crew to use. Data is encouraged by dr. pulaski to compete with the guy in a game. data loses. he has problems. later data tries again and gets a stalemate.

wargames happen and Ferengi show up. they get dealt with.

[Rating]
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

{Episode Commentary}
the only really interesting part of this episode is the stuff with data. the rest is pretty fine in general. nothing outstanding really

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 3 (Prime Directive)
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 5
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 4 (Suzie Plakson)
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 2
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## DigoDragon

Data losing the first time was interesting; he strives to be more human and yet couldn't deal with the imperfection of losing at something he should be good at. Achilles was an apt comparison.

This is probably one of the better interactions Data has with Dr. Polaski.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> This is probably one of the better interactions Data has with Dr. Polaski.


The interesting part was that the usual Data/Polaski exchange was "You're a machine"/"I'm not" (I'm summarising slightly), yet their scene here was the exact opposite - Polaski treated Data as a person, and Data treated himself as a machine.

----------


## Ionathus

This was the episode with the Picard quote

*Spoiler: quote*
Show




> It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not weakness. That is life.





? 

One of my favorites in the series, and a fantastic character moment for Picard.

----------


## hamishspence

> The interesting part was that the usual Data/Polaski exchange was "You're a machine"/"I'm not" (I'm summarising slightly), yet their scene here was the exact opposite - Polaski treated Data as a person, and Data treated himself as a machine.


I like to think that Pulaski has undergone enough Character Development throughout the season that this is _why_ she treats him more like a person than he himself does.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> I like to think that Pulaski has undergone enough Character Development throughout the season that this is _why_ she treats him more like a person than he himself does.


Oh indeed. I think it is pretty much the first time she talks to Data as a person.

----------


## Peelee

> This was the episode with the Picard quote
> 
> *Spoiler: quote*
> Show
> 
> It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not weakness. That is life.
> 
> 
> ? 
> ...


Seconded. Fantastic line.

----------


## russdm

> I like to think that Pulaski has undergone enough Character Development throughout the season that this is _why_ she treats him more like a person than he himself does.





> Oh indeed. I think it is pretty much the first time she talks to Data as a person.





> The interesting part was that the usual Data/Polaski exchange was "You're a machine"/"I'm not" (I'm summarising slightly), yet their scene here was the exact opposite - Polaski treated Data as a person, and Data treated himself as a machine.





> Data losing the first time was interesting; he strives to be more human and yet couldn't deal with the imperfection of losing at something he should be good at. Achilles was an apt comparison.
> 
> This is probably one of the better interactions Data has with Dr. Polaski.


It is such a shame that there is only episode left in this season. So, we don't anything further. (Since the last episode is some kind of weird clip show, maybe?...I don't know, I don't remember from watching before)

----------


## Gnoman

The show ran out of money and the studio wouldn't give them more. So they had to do the final episode of the season on a very limited budget.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> It is such a shame that there is only episode left in this season. So, we don't anything further. (Since the last episode is some kind of weird clip show, maybe?...I don't know, I don't remember from watching before)


Oh yes. _Shades of Grey_. You know, I wouldn't judge you if you skipped this one. It's not like we haven't seen most of it already...

I mean, it's possible to do a clip show well (the mid-season one in Nadesico, for example), but it is so rare that I am hard pressed to think of another example.

----------


## Peelee

> Oh yes. _Shades of Grey_. You know, I wouldn't judge you if you skipped this one. It's not like we haven't seen most of it already...
> 
> I mean, it's possible to do a clip show well (the mid-season one in Nadesico, for example), but it is so rare that I am hard pressed to think of another example.


Clerks: The Animated Series.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

I know we're on the next episode already, but I wanted to say that I really like how Worf's take on the Klingon culture is shown to be based on him growing up apart from other Klingons. It results in having an idealized view of how to be a Klingon that's based more on stories and legends he heard as a child rather than any actual life experience living as a Klingon.

Worf over-does "being a Klingon" so much that he becomes a paragon of Klingons, the uber-Klingon. And he gets frustrated when actual Klingons don't live up to his high ideals. Worf feels like he constantly has to prove that he's as much of a Klingon as other Klingons that he ends up being the most Klingon of Klingons ever.

And I've now typed the word Klingon so many times that it's starting to feel like it's not a word anymore. I am trapped in a chamber of echoing Klingons.

----------


## Ionathus

Legend of Korra had an okay clip show episode (as okay as they ever can be) in its final season -- because they still had enough money to pay the VAs to do voiceover, even if animation wasn't possible. Plus the episode poked fun at itself as a recap episode and gave Varrick lots of fun, goofy commentary on the show's early awkwardness...and, best of all, they took potshots at Unalaq and turned him into a total loser of a villain, which he was. 

Seconded that I won't judge you if you skip _Shades of Grey_. It's a waste of an hour, IMO.

----------


## Velaryon

> It is such a shame that there is only episode left in this season. So, we don't anything further. (Since the last episode is some kind of weird clip show, maybe?...I don't know, I don't remember from watching before)


Heck, I've watched it within the last 2 months and I don't remember it either. Obviously a true masterpiece of an episode.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> Heck, I've watched it within the last 2 months and I don't remember it either. Obviously a true masterpiece of an episode.


I have the opposite problem - I watched it decades ago (in America, no less), and I can't forget it.

----------


## russdm

Season 2 Episode 22
Shades of Gray
Stardate: 42976.1

[Plot]
Riker gets infected by a plant. So to cure it, he re-watches all of the previous episodes in clips. 

[Rating]
---

{Episode Commentary}
To be honest, this is a bad episode, but then given how apparently the show was out of budget, it is hard to hold it against it. The basic plot is that a plant infects Riker and he needs to be cured. That could have been done using props and just the small basic amount of stuff they could whip up. They picked to go with clips from previous episodes.

They apparently had the budget to film a jungle like or swamp like or marsh like or whatever place they filmed. They could or should have just made this a bottle episode. Have a simple plot, and make good use of all of the props that they had available. Then make it the most barebones. Maybe just Riker and Co working on setting up part of a colony, or doing some kind of simple survey, find there was nothing of interest and who knows.

I guess that I am trying to come up with a more engaging plot that makes me feel interested. Since the whole dangerous plant thing does work, the clipshow solution is just out there. I am not sure what exactly it would accomplish. then again, the budget was apparently gone, and nobody asked the actors or crew to fork up some cash? Or sent anybody off to get the executives to fork over just a little more dough?

They (Executives) just decided to end the season on a whimper of an episode. Given that, I just don't how you would pick it up again. It just feels like so much of a sense of "That's it?", "That's how you close out the season?"

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 3 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 5
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 4 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 2
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:

----------


## Peelee

[QUOTE=russdm;25263802]Riker gets infected by a plant. So to cure it, he re-watches all of the previous episodes in clips. /QUOTE]

Best summation ever.

----------


## Velaryon

Okay, now I kinda (vaguely) remember this episode. Yeah, definitely forgettable especially for a season ender.

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> Season 2 Episode 22
> Shades of Gray
> Stardate: 42976.1
> They apparently had the budget to film a jungle like or swamp like or marsh like or whatever place they filmed. They could or should have just made this a bottle episode. Have a simple plot, and make good use of all of the props that they had available. Then make it the most barebones. Maybe just Riker and Co working on setting up part of a colony, or doing some kind of simple survey, find there was nothing of interest and who knows.


This was a bottle episode, just a terribly written one. But with no money, and the writers guild about to go on strike there was no time write something decent. So it was always destined to be terrible not doing it probably would have been the best option.

At least nothing important happens, sometimes a terrible episode puts something of plot relevance in it.

----------


## DigoDragon

I'm looking it up on Memory Alpha and nope, still don't remember this one. Maybe that's for the best? ^^

I'm under the assumption that they were contractually obligated to make 22 episodes rather than just go with 21 and not make this last one.

Could be more interesting if they did the clip show over a game of poker and they're just relating to things/events that happened with jest.

----------


## Bohandas

I think the best way to do a clip show in general, and possibly the ONLY good way to do a clip show, is to remix the clips into something completely new after the manner of _Kung-Pow: Enter the Fist_, _What's Up Tiger Lily?_, _Sealab 2021_, and _Power Rangers_.

EDIT:
Failing that, another thing they could have done would be to have some problem happen that causes one of the characters to look up similar historical incidents, and then just edit two thematically related TOS episodes down to half an hour each

----------


## Wintermoot

It's especially interesting that the reason given is because they ran out of budget when the very next season, season 3, had a huge outlay attached because they redesigned all the costumes, added some new sets, improved the cameras and otherwise made a bunch of big budget changes between 2 and 3. I wonder where THAT money came from when they ran out from the prior season? I guess it was lockboxed away from season 2's completion.

----------


## Gnoman

The issue was a fixed per-season budget. By the time Season 3 rolled around, that was no longer an issue, and the studio was starting to realize the kind of ratings juggernaut they had on their hands.


That, and they probably figured replacing all the costumes was cheaper than crippling their actors - the suits from the first two seasons were _bad_.

----------


## Peelee

> I think the best way to do a clip show in general, and possibly the ONLY good way to do a clip show, is to remix the clips into something completely new after the manner of _Kung-Pow: Enter the Fist_, _What's Up Tiger Lily?_, _Sealab 2021_, and _Power Rangers_.


Again, Clerks: TAS (which was brilliant. I will die on this hill) did it _amazingly_ well. Without remixing the clips into something completely new.

----------


## DigoDragon

> That, and they probably figured replacing all the costumes was cheaper than crippling their actors - the suits from the first two seasons were _bad_.


Definitely a good move. I've watched the cast describe how those early uniforms didn't breathe and stunk like roadkill.

----------


## russdm

Alright. It is time for our end of season review/Summary))

I think that my favorite characters this season has been: Worf and Data and Picard. I love everything about the Klingons and I really like Worf. It pushes and forces the show in new directions when it covers Worf, and it also has to expand on the world building. Plus Klingons are really cool. I like the ships, their uniforms. They just seem like so much fun.

Data has improved in this season and has gotten better. Definitely a breakout character like Worf.

Picard has been heavily humanized through this season. It came really from removing one thing, Dr. Crusher, and I like what we have seen. Picard is moving towards what his personality and aspect will be like for later seasons.

Geordi has improved along with Riker. I think that both are moving into falling/fulfilling their role in the ship and on the show. I think that the move of Geordi really improved things.

Dr. Pulaski seems to me to better in every way to Dr. Crusher. It makes for a more interesting dynamic, and a better job with her relationship with Data, could see/result in some good serious character development for Data. She could fit well into a mentor role along with Picard for him. (Dr. Crusher will end up doing a little of this later on) It is a shame to lose her.

Wesley has gotten some good character development, and I like him. The more he moves away from being the Creator's Pet, the better he gets. He has potential to be a better character, but frankly, I think that his Creator's Pet problems really hurt him and that is what him so disliked and why he was not really given a chance. Had that been significantly lessened, then I think he would have been more well liked and more a fan favorite. The potential of that is simply frankly there, but Gene made some poor decisions with him. That cost the show heavily.

Troi has been doing better, and had one episode where she did her job of ship's counselor. (Emissary, with K - Worf's Lady Friend) There is still some struggle with her though.

As for the season and it's episodes: I really think that there has been some improvement from the first season, but I still don't that it has really "grown the beard" fully. There are still some plain bad or terrible episodes and ones that just are not that great but not bad ones. The quality is improving some as the writers and cast find their places fully.

My favorite episodes were those that focused on Worf/Klingons, or Picard, and also Data's big one. Those episodes are really good, and set up future events that could/would lead to more stories. Things like that, that give more plots to follow up with, are really great.

My main issue here with this season, I am going to say, is the poor handling of Dr. Pulaski, and the slow but misguided development for that character. It marred things a little. I honestly think that it could been done better than it was. Then there is the fact that the show is still struggling to get a handle on the different characters. They  lump together in personality and such a little too much. Worf and Data and Picard have all moved aside from the main in developing unique personalities. That is something the series needs more of.

As for how things have gone, I think that season really shows that there is potential for the series to become good. About as good as the Original Series was. It will be time taken to get there, but I think that is something to look forward to.

As for Season 3, we get Dr. Crusher and lose Dr. Pulaski. I honestly am not sure that I am thrilled about that after all. I feel that Dr. Crusher is based too heavily about/around Wesley and also that her interactions with Picard don't show her to be as thoroughly independent as I would like. Then there is how the writers are having trouble to write ways to really make use of her, and that is really Gene's fault, and the fact that apparently the writers couldn't come up with real plots that make use of the part that Dr. Crusher is a Doctor.

We will just have to see if that changes or not.

What do others think or have to say?

----------


## Devonix

Glad to see more people turning around on Pulaski, yeah she was an underutilized talent and wellspring of possible character development and conflict.

She actually has an arc over the course of her season.  But most people seem to only focus on that one single scene with her and Data.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> Wesley has gotten some good character development, and I like him. The more he moves away from being the Creator's Pet, the better he gets. He has potential to be a better character, but frankly, I think that his Creator's Pet problems really hurt him and that is what him so disliked and why he was not really given a chance. Had that been significantly lessened, then I think he would have been more well liked and more a fan favorite. The potential of that is simply frankly there, but Gene made some poor decisions with him. That cost the show heavily.


I never really liked Wesley. He got off to a bad start, there really wasn't a sensible place for him in the cast, and although he did have a couple of good episodes they never really fixed him properly. He _might_ have been better, but the big problem was that there was no sensible way of fitting him into the story. He didn't work as "child of Beverly Crusher" and he didn't work as "Brevet Ensign", as I saw very little precident for that sort of posting. If they had a few more on the ship it might have worked.




> Troi has been doing better, and had one episode where she did her job of ship's counselor. (Emissary, with K - Worf's Lady Friend) There is still some struggle with her though.


Troi was another character who came across very badly in the start. She started off as a long drink or water, and it took a long time to turn her round, and I don't really think they managed it until quite late.




> As for the season and it's episodes: I really think that there has been some improvement from the first season, but I still don't that it has really "grown the beard" fully. There are still some plain bad or terrible episodes and ones that just are not that great but not bad ones. The quality is improving some as the writers and cast find their places fully.


Agreed - it took a while for the writers and actors to get in gear, but once they did TNG became a decent series.

EDIT:



> Glad to see more people turning around on Pulaski, yeah she was an underutilized talent and wellspring of possible character development and conflict.
> 
> She actually has an arc over the course of her season.  But most people seem to only focus on that one single scene with her and Data.


I never understood the Pulaski hate. I do get the feeling that the arguement was less "she's a bad character" and more "She's picking on Data".

----------


## Peelee

> Glad to see more people turning around on Pulaski, yeah she was an underutilized talent and wellspring of possible character development and conflict.


That was actually her issue in the show; TNG was very much designed as a conflict-free crew as much as possible. This was a large part of why they swung the pendulum in the other direction on DS9 and had virtually every character be in conflict with some other character (or several) on the station.

----------


## Aedilred

> Yeah, while "Starfleet's mission has always been one of peace" (_pace_ Kirk) it's also clear that their ships are expected to be combat-ready at the drop of a hat without reinforcement and even the non-specialist warships are heavily armed. Indeed, in the DS9 pilot itself, the _Enterprise_ is considered (by both sides) to be sufficient deterrent to hold multiple Cardassian warships at bay. 
> 
> There are probably numerous other examples from the various series, but overall the trend seems to be that a Starfleet ship at full strength is at least a match for even specialised warcraft of other fleets - the only exceptions of which I'm aware being the Borg and some of the biggest Romulan vessels. 
> 
> While my knowledge of Trek is very movie-heavy, "calling for backup" also doesn't seem to be a thing Starfleet captains do in combat situations unless heavily outmatched. Kirk needed help from the _Excelsior_ against the prototype in _The Undiscovered Country_ but that's the only occasion I can think of and even then Sulu seemed to do that on his own initiative rather than being specifically asked for help.


Coming back to this again because it still kind of nags at me, and I'm now up on my DS9 watch to the later part of season 4. In _The Way of the Warrior_...

*Spoiler: Way of the Warrior spoilers*
Show

We first see the _Defiant_ run from a single Klingon cruiser (with, iirc, one Bird of Prey backing it up). Now in context that makes sense, because it's taken hull damage (being forced to lower its shields to beam Cardassian refugees aboard during the battle) and its cloaking device is offline, so standing and fighting wasn't an option. 

That leads to a massive Klingon battlefleet pursuing it to DS9: precise numbers are unclear but it's commanded by both Gowron and Martok in person, and is at least a significant portion of the fleet seen earlier in the episode which was estimated to comprise at least 25% of the _entire_ Klingon imperial navy. DS9 is by this point less toothless than it was against the Cardassians back in S1, but it is clearly outmatched, and after an initial engagement dependent on reinforcements.

Those reinforcements come in the shape of six Starfleet ships, even the imminent arrival of which is enough to persuade the Klingons to withdraw. Considering that (a) Starfleet ships are not warships, (b) the _Defiant_, their one specialised warship, is out of action, and (c) and the Klingons are one of the three biggest military powers in the alpha quadrant, indeed probably the most heavily _militarised_ of the three, and this represents a massive concentration of their forces - the perceived potency of those Starfleet ships beggars belief, with each one being a match for _multiple_ Klingon specialist battle cruisers plus bird-of-prey escorts. Yes, DS9 is still in play, but by the time those ships arrive, it's going to be sufficiently battered that it's not going to contribute much to the fight.


It shouldn't bother me, but it just does, somehow. Especially in the context of the _Defiant_ actually _being_ a specialised warship, there's just kind of a weird disparity there. If it were, say, twenty Starfleet ships en route, I probably wouldn't blink at it, but six... just seems a really low number, in context.

----------


## Gnoman

I happen to own a set of blueprints from _Star Trek: The Motion Picture_ that were part of the promotion for the film. They explicitly state that a K'Tinga-class Battlecruiser (the movie version of the iconic D7) is no match for a refitted _Constitution_ and could only win at three-on-one odds. Starfleet's ships being ludicrously tough has been a franchise staple for a long time.

----------


## Peelee

> and the Klingons are one of the three biggest military powers in the alpha quadrant, indeed probably the most heavily _militarised_ of the three


I'm assuming the Federation, Klingon Empire, and Romulan Star Empire? Romulans might well give the Klingons a run for their money. Also, whole not nearly as big as the others, the Cardassians Union is supposed to be incredibly heavily militarized and may match the Klingons or Romulans in percent, if not hard numbers.

----------


## hamishspence

> I happen to own a set of blueprints from _Star Trek: The Motion Picture_ that were part of the promotion for the film. They explicitly state that a K'Tinga-class Battlecruiser (the movie version of the iconic D7) is no match for a refitted _Constitution_ and could only win at three-on-one odds. Starfleet's ships being ludicrously tough has been a franchise staple for a long time.


Later media has tended to portray them as a bit more dangerous - with _Kronos One_ implied to be comparable to to the Enterprise-A ("_We come in peace and you blatantly defile that peace - for this I shall blow you out of the stars"_), and Kirk _not_ reacting like he massively outguns it), and Kang's battlecruiser as comparable to the Excelsior, in the Voyager episode _Flashback_.

----------


## factotum

> I happen to own a set of blueprints from _Star Trek: The Motion Picture_ that were part of the promotion for the film. They explicitly state that a K'Tinga-class Battlecruiser (the movie version of the iconic D7) is no match for a refitted _Constitution_ and could only win at three-on-one odds. Starfleet's ships being ludicrously tough has been a franchise staple for a long time.


You don't need blueprints to know that--we see right in the movie that V'Ger's bolts destroy those Klingon cruisers near enough instantly, while one later hits the Enterprise and the ship survives, albeit at only 30% shields. And that bolt is dealing damage for a good, what, 20 or 30 seconds?

----------


## russdm

Hey, people. I will be getting back to this in this week. Have my last days of a class so I have been busy with that. And a slightly different work schedule than before. But things will be changing up and improving.

So be expecting this to be active again. And we are starting up with season 3 as well. See you all later

----------


## Arcane_Secrets

> Hey, people. I will be getting back to this in this week. Have my last days of a class so I have been busy with that. And a slightly different work schedule than before. But things will be changing up and improving.
> 
> So be expecting this to be active again. And we are starting up with season 3 as well. See you all later


I always thought that Season 3 was when the series really started to take off in a good way. They pretty much stabilized most of their cast by then for starters.

----------


## Trafalgar

> I happen to own a set of blueprints from _Star Trek: The Motion Picture_ that were part of the promotion for the film. They explicitly state that a K'Tinga-class Battlecruiser (the movie version of the iconic D7) is no match for a refitted _Constitution_ and could only win at three-on-one odds. Starfleet's ships being ludicrously tough has been a franchise staple for a long time.





> You don't need blueprints to know that--we see right in the movie that V'Ger's bolts destroy those Klingon cruisers near enough instantly, while one later hits the Enterprise and the ship survives, albeit at only 30% shields. And that bolt is dealing damage for a good, what, 20 or 30 seconds?


As I recall in ST:TMP, Enterprise had its' phasers powered directly by the warp drive. This innovation made the phasers far more powerful than Klingon disrupters or torpedoes at the time. It also made the phasers unusable during the whole "wormhole" incident.

Of course, there was no real consistent canon to Star Trek technology until TNG. This may have been retconned.

----------


## Gnoman

Yep, that was a thing. Hence the famous "Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm phooooooooooootoooooooon torrrrrrrrrrrrpeeeeeeeedoooooos" scene, which is one of the very few memorable scenes from the movie.

----------


## Peelee

> Yep, that was a thing. Hence the famous "Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm phooooooooooootoooooooon torrrrrrrrrrrrpeeeeeeeedoooooos" scene, which is one of the very few memorable scenes from the movie.


For a second I thought that said "arrrrrrroooooooooooooo" and was wondering what the head of Richard Nixon, President of Earth, was doing in Star Trek: TMP

----------


## Ionathus

> Hey, people. I will be getting back to this in this week. Have my last days of a class so I have been busy with that. And a slightly different work schedule than before. But things will be changing up and improving.
> 
> So be expecting this to be active again. And we are starting up with season 3 as well. See you all later


Hooray! Have been genuinely missing this. 

Enjoy Season 3! I agree with the other poster: this is where things truly started to get good for me, too.

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 1
Evolution
Stardate: 43125.8

[Plot]
the ship is at a place to do science with wesley making some smart nanites. dr beverly comes back, thinks that wesley needs to act like a teenager. wes says some things. the science for the science guy which is why the ship is there happens? and science guy talks to wes.

the nanites escape and start eating the ship computer some. the science guy zaps some and gets zapped in return. the crew end up being able to talk to the nanites and things are fixed up.

the science for science guy happens. wesley does some teenage thing

[Rating]
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

{Episode Commentary}
yeah that was not the best plot summary but nothing really stood out here. the issue with the nanites is meh i guess and the science bit for science guy was pretty meh too. most of this episode is focused on wesley, in trying to humanize him and make him more likable. maybe works, maybe doesn't work.

either way that is the start of our new season

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 3 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 5
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 4 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 2
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## DigoDragon

If I remember correctly, the nanites talk to the crew through Data, right?

----------


## Peelee

Ya know, my wife and I always put something on for background noise while we go to sleep, and various Star Treks are in the group of options. Had this episode on just the other night, and while our eyes were closed, I poked my wife as soon as it came on and said, "hey, that's Dr. Kelso."

----------


## russdm

> If I remember correctly, the nanites talk to the crew through Data, right?


Yeah, they do

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 2
The Ensigns of Command
Stardate: NA

[Plot]
the crew is having a relaxation time and Data is playing as part of a quartet with miles o'brien and two other people. data mentions to picard and dr crusher that he is pretty bad, there are words.

picard gets called away to deal with a problem relating to the Sheliak, a race of fat vorlons. they look like vorlons who are fat and they have even a close sound of speaking.

picard gets treated disrespectfully by the fat vorlons who cut him off. they want some humans removed and don't like humans even. picard reads the treaty, troubles the fat vorlons and makes them wait on them and cuts them off. he enjoys that. the fat vorlons give him what he wants.

meanwhile

Data goes down to the planet and learns that the humans are from a colony ship that went off course. the colonists adapted to the radiation and have grown to being over 15000 which is more than what the crew can remove using the shuttles since the transporters won't work. the colony leader, Gosheven, lets Data talk and try to convince people. Data meets a lady who is interested in him. he talks with her.

at some point, Gosheven uses a shock probe to deactivate Data. With having tried to talk out the problems, Data decides to use his phaser to demonstrate the threat of the fat vorlons. the other colonists are convinced of the threat. Gosheven is reluctant but goes along with the majority decision. he and Data have words

after everything, picard mentions to Data that Data picked two musicians that have different styles to combine. Data admits that he has been needing to become creative.

[Rating]
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.

{Episode Commentary}
this episode is mainly about fleshing out Data's growth of becoming more human and how he is applying human traits and attributes to himself. that part of the story is great 

the part with the colonists is also pretty good. it works for exploring Data

the fat vorlons are not good or great. no explanation is ever given for why if the fat vorlons don't like humans and human languages why they then learned a human language and made a treaty rather than just learning enough to tell the humans to stay away from their space. it would have provided some details why the fat vorlons matter the fat vorlons are also lawyer types

the episode of "Darmok" did a much better job of giving a backstory to the aliens in that episode which helped to give it a strong emotional feeling when Picard is able to make the breakthrough to being able to open communication with them. it gives some good emotion

Picard being able to put the fat vorlons on hold is supposed to have some good feeling to it but I think with the lack of background that makes the whole thing feel more like a phone call with someone who don't like but not important. it just lacks a feel to me. then there is that once it is established that the fat vorlons don't care that the part of the episode is not interesting enough like what is going on with Data. really feels like it was drug out a bit rather than something that we needed to go back to as often as it did

this episode was a better one than the first episode in this season and I think that you could actually have started with this one. the last episode really didn't have enough in it to be the best first episode of the season in my opinion. some of the stuff with wesley was nice and knowing dr crusher is back is good to know but the rest of that episode could have been better 

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 3 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 5
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 4 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 2
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## Kantaki

The Sheliak always came off as really really lawful to me.
They have an accord with the Federation and they want it followed to the letter.
They also want to settle that world as soon as possible. The Federation can remove their squatters now or breach the accord and the Sheliak remove them. Violently.
So Picard* gives them a choice: they give him enough time to follow his obligation and evacuate the settlers or he picks the species that has collective naptime for the next few months to mediate things. (Which_also_ gives the Enterprise enough time to evacuate.)

*Who really should've looked at the paperwork _before_ trying to negotiate. No wonder those aliens were annoyed.

----------


## factotum

Only thing I didn't like about that resolution was the idea of a species that all go into some sort of hibernation at the same time. How does that work? Do they only live in one hemisphere of their planet and literally have no off-world colonies at all? What do any ships they have travelling at the time of the hibernation do? Just park up where they are for several months?

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> Only thing I didn't like about that resolution was the idea of a species that all go into some sort of hibernation at the same time. How does that work? Do they only live in one hemisphere of their planet and literally have no off-world colonies at all? What do any ships they have travelling at the time of the hibernation do? Just park up where they are for several months?


Earth has seasons due to the tilt on our axis. If the alien planet has a highly elliptical orbit its seasons could be entirely based on distance from its star.

----------


## factotum

> Earth has seasons due to the tilt on our axis. If the alien planet has a highly elliptical orbit its seasons could be entirely based on distance from its star.


Still doesn't explain the bit about the ships or off-world colonies, though--surely this must be a spacefaring species or else the Prime Directive would prohibit Starfleet having direct contact with them?

----------


## Seppl

> Still doesn't explain the bit about the ships or off-world colonies, though--surely this must be a spacefaring species or else the Prime Directive would prohibit Starfleet having direct contact with them?


Depends on their biology. Apparently, the trigger for their hibernation is elapsed time, not external stimuli. If the external reason for the hibernation happens suddenly and regularly, that is a very real way this species could have evolved.

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> Still doesn't explain the bit about the ships or off-world colonies, though--surely this must be a spacefaring species or else the Prime Directive would prohibit Starfleet having direct contact with them?


Just because theyre warp capable doesnt mean they make frequent use of it or have off world colonies. 

And even if they have such things they may not have the authority to act as mediators. Furthermore were assuming this is seasonal in relative earth terms and not once every five years or something.

----------


## DigoDragon

I've read that Patrick Stewart completely ad-libbed the part when Picard walks over to the dedication plaque and checks it for dust before answering the call.

It's such a power move. :3

----------


## KillianHawkeye

It really is just a very satisfying moment where Captain Picard has been dealing with these guys' nonsense for the whole episode and then finally gets to use their own nonsense against them for a minute.  :Small Amused:

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 3
"The Survivors"
Stardate: 43152.4

[Plot]
the crew respond to a distress call from a human colony. as it turns out, everyone is dead (Dave), aside from the guy that actually happens to be an alien. with all of the details the crew find out, like that alien guy wiped out a race of aliens and feels bad about it.

Meanwhile, Troi deals with the elevator music from hell.

[Rating]
1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)

{Episode Commentary}
this is a terrible episode mostly because it just treats the entire affair as something mechanical. It really fits the line made by Stalin (Maybe) that: "A million is a statistic". There is no real exploration of what happened. yes, those alien Husnocks were wiped out or whatever, but we don't visit them at all. Aside from the ship that attacked the human colony, nothing is known about them at all. And given that the alien guy lied about being an alien guy...

It makes him an unreliable narrator at best. the Husnock could have treated better than discount Klingons and some exploration made of them and their motives in attacking the colony. It comes across rather more like the alien guy just stepped on some bugs a whole lot opposed to getting rid of a sentient species. Treating it with such emptyness, it completely makes the alien guy having some kind of remorse or guilt meaningless.

apparently, the alien guy could make illusions that have power, and take out races or something. Why didn't he just get rid of or remove the Husnock attacking the colony? He could provided his power to help while having the colonists employ peaceful self defense means (Federation weapons all have stun settings) and done that. Instead, he just messes with the Husnock ship, doesn't explain his actions to them, nor does he do anything to fix the issue. Nor is any explanation given for why the Husnock showed up to the colony, or if they had planned to attack it anyway.

The story portrays the Husnock as basically discount Klingons, full of aggression. Nothing in the story sells that it was actually wrong to get rid of them. no attempt is actually made to define them beyond a small bunch and so one is struck wondering, what does it even matter? There are little reasons for not exploring Husnock (s) in some way because selling the moral wrong of what happened is such a major theme of the episode

which is promptly wasted. Why do we care about the exploration of what happened beyond, everyone died, and just leave it at that. We actually don't need anything about the alien guy or the things got wiped out. Just let us know something destroyed the colony, and have the crew just figure that out. Then they can try to find them to figure out an explanation or get one.

due to the events or the story itself, you could probably just drop the episode and not lose anything. There is nothing here that really matters even the slightest bit. and the episode just fails to generate sympathy for alien guy. Why should i care about what happened, when we get no exploration of anything: about the alien guy, about why he may be a pacifist (It seems that nearly every powerful alien that is not Q is some peace-nik hippie), why the wiping out of a race matters, and so on.

I don't think that any thought was put into why it matters what happens verse looking at what happens with detachment. given how the crew is regularly, i think that it really undercuts the point of the episode's plot, which was what exactly? Alien guy can wipe out a race, and does for reasons and then feels bad? Why do we need to care or care, about this?

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 3 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 5
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 4 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 2
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters

----------


## factotum

I think the whole reason that he didn't act against the Husnock ship that attacked the colony was a vow not to use his power, which promptly got forgotten when his *wife* was killed and it became personal. Which is a sort of understandable motivation, albeit a very weak one. It also has to be said that the power to wipe out an entire species with a thought is, as far as we know, even beyond what the Q can do--to all intents and purposes the guy here is God, and that's just silly.

Oh, and for extra fun, see if you can count how many times Worf says the shields have failed when the Enterprise is being attacked by the fake Husnock warship...

----------


## Gnoman

I really don't think "pacifist super-powered being commits genocide in a monet of wrath" really needs that much setup.

It is all in the delivery, and I think the actor here delivered it very well. And Patrick Stewart did an admirable job of portraying just how overwhelmed Picard would be at dealing with that.

----------


## DigoDragon

> --to all intents and purposes the guy here is God, and that's just silly.


The original series had several god-like beings and I don't believe they were this powerful to just wipe out civilizations with a snap.

A very forgettable episode in my opinion.

----------


## The Glyphstone

With all the Trackers in the Tracker Tracker, I'm surprised we don't yet have a Godlike Alien Beings tracker.

----------


## Peelee

> With all the Trackers in the Tracker Tracker, I'm surprised we don't yet have a Godlike Alien Beings tracker.


Well, it's not TOS. :Small Amused:

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> Well, it's not TOS.


TNG had it's fair share with the Cytherians, Nagilum, the beings that created Armus, the Traveller, the Dowd (natch), the Q (duh), whatever that was in "Justice" protecting the Edo, 

*Spoiler: And of course*
Show

Wesley Crusher (probably)


The counter would get pretty high from just the Q episodes.

----------


## The Glyphstone

Yeah, specifically a Non-Q Godlike Alien Beings counter I guess.

----------


## factotum

Oh, I fully realise that godlike aliens are par for the course in Star Trek, but Kevin Uxbridge is so far beyond the others in terms of power that you have to think he's particularly stupid to think that the only way he could get the Enterprise-D to leave would be to have a bigger, badder ship attack it. Or, for that matter, how he couldn't figure out a way to repel the attacking Husnock without harming them, thus saving his wife. It's the disconnect between the part of the story where he allowed his beloved wife to die and the part where he genocided an entire space-capable species that annoys me.

----------


## Velaryon

I didn't have a problem with this episode. The lack of development for the Husnock doesn't bother me because they're really not important - there's no shortage of aggressive species out there, and there's no reason to assume that Kevin's description of them is a complete or accurate one anyway. All that matters is that they attacked the colony, killed the others, and Kevin obliterated them in revenge.

It's true that his act of genocide is a larger display of power than anything we've seen from the other various godlike beings, but there's no indication that it's more than those beings are capable of, either. The very first time we meet Q, he's threatening the entire human race, after all.

I like this episode because it puts the Enterprise crew and the Federation in general in perspective - for all that we see them heroically running around the galaxy saving planets and defeating bad guys, there are just some beings that are so far out of their weight class that they can't even comprehend the implications of those beings' actions.

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> I didn't have a problem with this episode. The lack of development for the Husnock doesn't bother me because they're really not important - there's no shortage of aggressive species out there, and there's no reason to assume that Kevin's description of them is a complete or accurate one anyway. All that matters is that they attacked the colony, killed the others, and Kevin obliterated them in revenge.
> 
> It's true that his act of genocide is a larger display of power than anything we've seen from the other various godlike beings, but there's no indication that it's more than those beings are capable of, either. The very first time we meet Q, he's threatening the entire human race, after all.
> 
> I like this episode because it puts the Enterprise crew and the Federation in general in perspective - for all that we see them heroically running around the galaxy saving planets and defeating bad guys, there are just some beings that are so far out of their weight class that they can't even comprehend the implications of those beings' actions.


If his power was comparable to Q he could have hurled the alien ship across the Galaxy. Or teleported the colony somewhere else.
Most responders to this episode are making the argument if you can blow something up its equally easy to build it.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> I really don't think "pacifist super-powered being commits genocide in a monet of wrath" really needs that much setup.


I'm not too familiar with Monet's paintings, but I'm really curious what this one would look like.  :Small Wink:  :Small Amused:

----------


## Wintermoot

> I'm not too familiar with Monet's paintings, but I'm really curious what this one would look like.


thickly pixellated flowers smeared with blood and feces

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 
Who Watches The Watchers
Stardate: 43173.5

[Plot]
the crew go to help a bunch of guys that have been watching some natives on a planet. the thing breaks down and ends up injuring a guy and a native. the native gets beamed up and healed by doc crusher. then she fails to wipe the memory of the native. the event gets the natives to start believing that Picard is the Overseer, who is the "God" for the Mintakans, who inhabit  the planet. The natives naturally run into problems. Mostly over wanting to access the Power of the Picard.

Riker and Troi are sent down to help out, after a third member or another member of the watcher guys is found by the natives. The natives don't know what to do exactly. Troi causes a distraction, and Riker carries off the Watcher guy. they get beamed up

Picard who had resisted any attempts to pose as a god, must listen and figure out a way to help Troi, who the natives are holding to deal with for the The Picard. one native ends up suggesting that Troi be sacrificed to the The Picard. Picard beams up Nuria, leader of the Mintakans and tries to talk to her.

Nothing works to get through her thick skull until Picard takes her to visit Sick Bay and a Watcher Guy dies. That convinces Nuria of the power and ability of the The Picard. When they go down to the planet again, in try to free Troi, Nuria mentions how Picard has power and ability but is not the Overseer or a god.

The native that had gotten healed, Liko, ends up shooting Picard with an arrow, after Picard basically dares him. He accepts dying to support his actions. Liko ends up shooting him in the shoulder.

Picard, with his arm in sling, talks with the Mintakans. He explains about what purpose the watchers were doing, and why Picard's people were on planet. A Mintakan asks for technological assistance. Picard points out that would be another kind of interference. Nuria mentions learning about stuff has shown that her people can develop as they need to. Picard speaks with them some, and did earlier tells the Mintakans about the Prime Directive.

Before he leaves, Picard is given a Tapestry [A new tracker appears!] from the Mintakans.

[Rating]
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.

{Episode Commentary}
So, first off, we get to add a tracker about the various gifts that Picard will end up receiving over the series  and will put on display. The Mintakan Tapestry will be joined by the Hyksos from Professor Galen, and the flute from Kataan/Katann courtesy of the Probe from the "Inner Light" episode (THat should be the episode where Picard becomes an alien and experiences a life drawn from the history of the planet right before the probe launches and gets encountered by Picard and the ship), and the dagger from the Tamarians from "Darmok" episode.

This episode is a bit mixed, in that the story works really well, and probably one of the most human and not annoying or idiotic observations of the Prime Directive and how it was supposed to work in practice and principle, before the PD (Prime Directive) turned into the later mess and the whole "Let's have an entire civilization get destroyed because we can't be bothered to help any or not". The PD really turns into a problem later on, as different people have different ideas of having to make it work or whatever.

The story with Picard is about his desire to avoid any religious trouble element, but due to weird, Picard acts more like the idea of religion is bad. The focus is really supposed to be on how Picard doesn't want to play god, but his dialogue always talks about how Religion or belief in the supernatural will somehow be putting the mintakans in superstition and fear and ignorance. It makes for a weird element that should have been cut with the greater focus about how doing the suggested God thing goes against Picard's principles. especially in regards to Truth. 

Sadly, the show instead goes for making the Federation appear to be anti-religion. that somehow the Federation became the Federation by tossing out religion. that just never made sense because it employs lazy arguments of Picard's line about "superstition and ignorance and fear". this is all Gene and his personal opinion floating in. later episodes will include Federation religious stuff.

really, a much greater look at Picard being angry with being treated as a god and getting a way to help fix things while carefully keeping the Federation and its sense of self righteous morality in check. eh, that will be done better, later

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 3 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 5
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 5 ( Ray Wise)
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 2
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

Picard is not a god, pretending to be a deity and going to those people to lay down a set of religious canon would be casting those them into. Superstition, fear and ignorance. Because its a lie.

----------


## Gnoman

I _despise_ this episode. Restricting the reasons to board-appropriate criticisms, the entire plot not only relies on a ludicrous level of coincidence (that the Starfleet officer witnessed mid-transport by a native just happens to have the same name as a mostly-forgotten local deity is patently absurd), but also on an incredible level of gullibility and stupidity on the part of the natives. 

The woman who saw The Picard had no hard evidence - he didn't leave any evidence behind, they didn't find the ruined observation base, there were no mysterious healing or deaths by strange means. Nothing more than one woman rushing into town saying "guess what I saw!".  This same woman is also unwilling to accept that Picard is not a god after being taken aboard the Enterprise and given a "we're not gods, just people that have really, really good technology" tour. This is enough to significantly revive the forgotten beliefs not just in this one village but threatens to become a major cultural phenomenon. This is a culture that is said by Vulcans to be impressively logical, after a major disaster that push everyone to an enormous level of stress.

The equivalent on Earth would be if a _single_ UFO sighting instantly created a UFO craze far larger than the one we had after thousands. 



There's a workable core to the story - "Thou Shalt Not Impersonate A Deity" is a perfectly valid component of the Prime Directive, and the Enterprise crew being revolted by the possibility of doing so even accidentally is also perfectly valid. They just didn't put it in a framework that actually makes logical sense.

----------


## DigoDragon

I mean, who wouldn't want to have the power of the Picard? :3

I thought this was an okay episode. It does need work, but the basic frame is probably one of the better examples of how the Prime Directive should work, as earlier said.

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

> I _despise_ this episode. Restricting the reasons to board-appropriate criticisms, the entire plot not only relies on a ludicrous level of coincidence (that the Starfleet officer witnessed mid-transport by a native just happens to have the same name as a mostly-forgotten local deity is patently absurd),


Youre absolutely correct except that didnt happen in the episode.
The deity was called The Overseer he only got the name Picard. Because Liko heard them call the captain by name.
 I believe I have seen the Overseer. He is called the Picard
And Liko and his daughter would have been written off as dreaming if they hadnt found Palmer.

NURIA: Remarkable. You were speaking the truth

For a comparison, two of your friends claim they were just abducted by aliens, then someone comes in dragging the body of and unconscious alien.

----------


## Gnoman

Maybe it has been too long since I've seen it. I distinctly remember them referring to "The Picard" as a known myth from their past, but maybe I'm remembering wrong.

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 5
The Bonding
Stardate: 43198.7

[Plot]
the crew lose a crewman under the command of Worf. the crew start dealing with it in their way and Picard has to tell Jeremy Astor that his mom died. some stuff

then aliens

then Worf adds Jeremy into his house/family as a brother

[Rating]
this episode had parts that could have made it:
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.
or
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on

however due to choices made by writers or possibly Gene..
Finished episode is:
1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)

{Episode Commentary}
By Q, this is a horrible episode. it could have been a good or great episode but they had to put in aliens. after that, the episode became as bad as Neelix making cheese that almost destroyed the ship by making it sick or the episode "Code of Honor". just complete and utter garbage.

I liked and wanted to see everything about the crew dealing with losing somebody and how things would be handled. The different reactions, the explorations of Worf, and Picard, the others. The learning about how Wesley feels about Picard in relation to his own father. That part all worked out well. And Picard dealing with and trying to help Jeremy actually process and grow through his grief. That would have been rather nice.

But Aliens...

Seriously, this was about the worst of all possible decisions to have made. Whenever Fake Mom showed up and was around, it just completely killed any interest that i had in the episode after. She just completely ruins every single one of the dramatic plot beats and makes the whole thing entirely dumb. Why did we need to include them, those aliens? It completely throughs out the dramatic work that appears and tosses it out. Then the story tries to work. It simply doesn't.

We don't need to include anything that the Aliens provide. In fact, they should have been excised and something had Jeremy's mom die due to some leftover bomb or device, establish that it had been leftover from some previous conflict by aliens, and simply leave it at that. We don't need some aliens showing up over stuff about the bomb or whatever. We don't need them  showing up about whatever. Just explain that the bomb was there because a conflict happened, and focus solely on the emotional element of grieving.

The episode would have been watchable at that point, because as soon as Fake Mom showed up, I just checked out. I didn't have a good impression that the writers were going to give the story that was starting up any dramatic props that it needed, when  she made her appearance. I can't remember any of the plot anymore, aside that things were going on with fake mom and also that Worf lights the candles to add in Jeremy to something.

This episode suffers heavily by needing to fulfill the Science Fiction element of Star Trek TNG, when it should have focused on the dramatic, and avoid aliens like the plague. the aliens did major damage to the story and made it seem like the subject matter of death and grieving was something that the writers really needed to mock thoroughly. The aliens or whatever the fake mom deal was, seems to (or seemed to) me existed solely to mock the grieving process at best. to make as much fun of it as possible and make it (the process) be treated as weird and wrong and not worth doing or to be done. It just made it seem like the writers wanted you to come with the sense that shedding tears over someone dying makes you a retard or stupid or just some other insulting thing.

This is made worse with the Picard speech about people/humans needing to grieve or whatever, but the episode basically takes a crap over all of Picard's comments, and frankly I can't see Picard having given a speech, as much as the writers suddenly realizing the whole episode script that they wrote is garbage or just straight up weird, and they need Picard to read the writers' comments. Which make no sense given everything else that happens already.

We don't need the aliens, and we don't need them to carry the story, as it would have worked without any aliens. Even Fake Mom, or seeing what Jeremy's mom looked like was completely unnecessary. Just mention her and then go on. Don't cast anybody and don't use this kind of story about alien whatever. I couldn't keep myself wanting to watch the rest of the episode because of how insulted i felt for when Fake Mom showed up. Like the writers had just spit on me.

Why did we need this episode? Given how it got executed, it should have been cut before it aired. Even worse is that it was supposedly written for how having a red shirt die and having the crew/mainCast care about that, was supposed to happen. Nothing of that sort appeared or was conveyed at all.

Was Gene smoking something? this episode just feels like it was made to take Star Trek's message of exploration of both the external and internal and see how much side message could be pissed on or crapped on.

Maybe a better episode could have been made, but only after certain of the writers were shot? I don't know. The episode feels completely more like Gene doing some seriously dumb stuff in the episode and pissing on everything.

the Aliens added stuff is just so bad, so bad, and not in the so bad it's good fashion. Just straight up super bad.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 (Grief is for suckers and aliens wah! too)
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 5
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 5 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 2
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## DigoDragon

Tangential, this episode reminds me of the theme that Worf seems to lose crew or ships when he's put in command of something (hence the trope, The Worf Effect).

Anyway.... yeah, the aliens plot point really did not need to be in this. It could have been fine focused on how space exploration is inherently dangerous, connecting the show to real world exploration, and then maybe leave on an upbeat note about explorers are heroes or something.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

Yeah, this was a stinker, but notable for being the first script written by Ron Moore who would go on to doing great things on TNG, DS9 and later the Battlestar reboot.

The aliens weren't in the original script, which revolved around Jeremy struggling to deal with his Mom's death by creating a replacement of her in the holodeck.  Gene supposedly changed it to aliens because he thought kids in the 24th century would just be able to handle their parent's death better.

----------


## russdm

> The aliens weren't in the original script, which revolved around Jeremy struggling to deal with his Mom's death by creating a replacement of her in the holodeck.  Gene supposedly changed it to aliens because he thought kids in the 24th century would just be able to handle their parent's death better.


Actually, according to memory alpha wiki:

The part with the holodeck was changed because the crew (filming) had done a holodeck show and did not want to do one. So that got a change.

As for Gene, he believed that people would evolve to where they wouldn't grieve at all or something. I mean, I get if it (death) was seen as being more natural occurrence but it sounded more like Gene intended them to become stoic robots. I don't know, just an overall odd way for them to be based on however Gene wanted it.

Ron Moore did some decent stuff when he was able to do TNG and DS9, especially when Gene was out of the picture. Which can be both a wonderful thing or a terrible thing. Depending on your view of events.

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 6
Booby Trap
Stardate:  43205.6

[Plot]
we see geordi strike out on a date. then there is a alien ship, and we get to watch geordi have a relationship with the computer while trying to save the ship from some problems

[Rating]
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

{Episode Commentary}
this episode is mainly about geordi's love life and also it introduces us to Picard loving old stuff. the part about geordi working the problem and ending up hooking up with the computer. that bit i remembered quite a bit but the rest of the episode is forgettable and you don't need to care because the crew will survive because we are only 6 episodes in of the season. The production crew won't kill them off

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 5
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 5 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 2
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> and you don't need to care because the crew will sur


Did something get cut off there?

----------


## factotum

The only memorable thing to me about this episode is how much of a contrast there is when the real Leah Brahms turns up in a later episode. Mainly because that was hilarious, although it does raise a question of just how bad the Enterprise's computer is when it gets someone's personality so utterly wrong despite being asked to base them on the real person's psychological profile--or maybe Starfleet psychiatrists are just rubbish?

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> although it does raise a question of just how bad the Enterprise's computer is when it gets someone's personality so utterly wrong despite being asked to base them on the real person's psychological profile--or maybe Starfleet psychiatrists are just rubbish?


Well I'm pretty sure the computer DOES warn Geordi that it doesn't have enough data to give the hologram the real person's personality. I don't think a psych profile is really enough to recreate anyone's personality by itself anyway.

The more interesting issue, which is also addressed in a Lt Barclay episode, is the implications of creating hologram of a real person and being able to program it to do whatever you want. Star Trek barely brushes on the topic of holographic pornography (mostly in DS9), but in reality this would become squicky really fast. Just imagine Rule 34 in the 24th century.  :Small Eek:

----------


## russdm

> Did something get cut off there?


Yes, it was. I fixed it

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> The only memorable thing to me about this episode is how much of a contrast there is when the real Leah Brahms turns up in a later episode. Mainly because that was hilarious, although it does raise a question of just how bad the Enterprise's computer is when it gets someone's personality so utterly wrong despite being asked to base them on the real person's psychological profile--or maybe Starfleet psychiatrists are just rubbish?


It was addressed on the first season episode with the Bynars that the holodeck has limits with how "real" the people on it feel.  Which doesn't come across well to us on screen because they're still being played by human actors.




> The more interesting issue, which is also addressed in a Lt Barclay episode, is the implications of creating hologram of a real person and being able to program it to do whatever you want. Star Trek barely brushes on the topic of holographic pornography (mostly in DS9), but in reality this would become squicky really fast. Just imagine Rule 34 in the 24th century.


What's weird is there doesn't seem to be anything in the regulations about making holographic replicas of your crewmates for sex, only that it seems regarded in bad taste (Quark gets in trouble with security on DS9 not for making a holo-Kira for his brothel, but for breaking into her personnel file to do so).  Troi even doesn't seem to find anything problematic in Reg making an unflattering holographic copy of his boss to beat up.

Otherwise, I think it's just sort of accepted that sex is a big part of what the crew use the holodeck for.  Even Janeway was more or less confirmed to be using the holodeck for that purpose on Voyager.

----------


## DigoDragon

> Otherwise, I think it's just sort of accepted that sex is a big part of what the crew use the holodeck for.


Lower Decks ran with that idea with one of the maintenance chores being to clean out the holodeck. Mariner is seen removing containers and it's left to the imagination through her disgusted reaction to the job.


I am concerned about how often people make replicas of their fellow crewmates in the holodeck for personal reasons. Like, the holodeck doors are rarely locked. :P

----------


## factotum

> Lower Decks ran with that idea with one of the maintenance chores being to clean out the holodeck. Mariner is seen removing containers and it's left to the imagination through her disgusted reaction to the job.


You'd think they'd just set things up so anything like that just gets transported out into space when the holodeck shuts down!  :Small Smile:

----------


## Wintermoot

> You'd think they'd just set things up so anything like that just gets transported out into space when the holodeck shuts down!


The secret origin of the Crystalline Entity. Frozen Space Spooj seeking revenge against the Federation.

----------


## Bohandas

> You'd think they'd just set things up so anything like that just gets transported out into space when the holodeck shuts down!


Or broken down into atoms or energy for recycling

----------


## theNater

> You'd think they'd just set things up so anything like that just gets transported out into space when the holodeck shuts down!





> Or broken down into atoms or energy for recycling


I dunno, it seems like giving the holodeck a setting that destroys organic matter would be a safety issue.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> I dunno, it seems like giving the holodeck a setting that destroys organic matter would be a safety issue.


You have _seen_ a holodeck episode, yes?

----------


## Kantaki

> You have _seen_ a holodeck episode, yes?


Aren't those usually malfunctions?
Not deliberate "features".
On the other hand the safety protocols can be disabled with a simple voice command, so the holodeck vaporizing/spacing everyone inside when someone presses the off-button wouldn't be too far fetched.

----------


## factotum

> Or broken down into atoms or energy for recycling


I don't think Star Trek has ever shown the capability of converting matter directly into energy--why would they need to mess around with all that antimatter if they could do that?

----------


## The Glyphstone

> I don't think Star Trek has ever shown the capability of converting matter directly into energy--why would they need to mess around with all that antimatter if they could do that?


Replicator assemble matter directly out of energy, it seems like its be simpler to reverse that.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Replicator assemble matter directly out of energy, it seems like its be simpler to reverse that.


The replicator system _can_ recycle matter, it's an intermittent concern early on in Voyager (before they forgot) and DS9 shows used plates being put back in the replicator and disposed of.

----------


## russdm

that might be simply because the plates came from the replicator? 

Given, events, i dont think that the writers ever considered any of the implications of what the replicators could do, especially in relation to the holodeck.

given the references to "Vulcan Love slave" and quark sells it.... I think that the writers didn't consider the moral or legal or ethical issues. Technically, geordi had a relationship with something using leah's body. did leah give that permission? no. Leah freaks out a little when Leah really shows up. ten we have what happens in the broccoli or barclay episode with holodeck versions of his fellow crew mates. Which has to be a violation of their privacy.

----------


## Peelee

> that might be simply because the plates came from the replicator? 
> 
> Given, events, i dont think that the writers ever considered any of the implications of what the replicators could do, especially in relation to the holodeck.
> 
> given the references to "Vulcan Love slave" and quark sells it.... I think that the writers didn't consider the moral or legal or ethical issues. Technically, geordi had a relationship with something using leah's body. did leah give that permission? no. Leah freaks out a little when Leah really shows up. ten we have what happens in the broccoli or barclay episode with holodeck versions of his fellow crew mates. Which has to be a violation of their privacy.


Why?

Bob can write fanfiction of Peelee all he wants to and that doesn't violate my privacy. A known likeness being used with completely different personalities seems like little more than a version of this.

----------


## russdm

well, maybe.

it just seems that Leah was upset and the crew not happy with Barclay with what he did. from the actions done, it feels fairly questionable.

as you say, it would be Peelee and Peelee's personality known by Bob, which is being used in a fanfiction. which based in how the holodeck gets used might involve intimate activity. that would definitely being creepy some. and it is clear from the barclay holodeck thing, that tweaks can be done. So, adding in some personality parts. the whole thing with the holodecks seems to me to follow under the use of images or people's images/appearance.

whatever, the whole thing is just a little unsettling

----------


## Bohandas

> Why?
> 
> Bob can write fanfiction of Peelee all he wants to and that doesn't violate my privacy. A known likeness being used with completely different personalities seems like little more than a version of this.


That's my assessment as well

----------


## Ionathus

> Technically, geordi had a relationship with something using leah's body. did leah give that permission? no. Leah freaks out a little when Leah really shows up. ten we have what happens in the broccoli or barclay episode with holodeck versions of his fellow crew mates. Which has to be a violation of their privacy.


First off, calling him Broccoli is delightful and I'll be doing it forever now, so thanks for that

Second, I remember really liking this episode at the time, specifically *because* what Geordi was doing was socially questionable, but ultimately turned into a harmless private pep talk to help him solve the problem at hand. 

I was really excited to explore this further when they brought Brahms back, but...




> Why?
> 
> Bob can write fanfiction of Peelee all he wants to and that doesn't violate my privacy. A known likeness being used with completely different personalities seems like little more than a version of this.


Not a privacy violation, I agree. A deeply creepy thing to do, nonetheless. I would be horrified to learn that a coworker had written romantic fanfiction about me. 

And that's just written words and imagination -- I would be outright *furious* if I stumbled across a physical recreation of me with a different personality. The sense of invasion and betrayal would be overpowering.

Remember the early episode where Riker destroys a clone of himself? Same vibe for me - and in fact, I'm kind of surprised Barclay's Riker was played for laughs given that previously established berserk button of Riker's.

All of this combines to make the followup Brahms episode a real letdown for me. It's still interesting, but it really doesn't make the most out of the opportunity -- to show Geordi how deeply creepy it is to project his fantasies onto a woman he doesn't know. Hell, he even gets a rant at the end to somehow justify his behavior! 

The fact that he did the exact same thing that Broccoli did ("create a fictionalized version of a person I admire, to provide something the real version won't") is kinda glossed over, or made into a heroic, resourceful thing instead of the embarrassing and unsettling deviance that Broccoli's holodeck shenanigans were portrayed as (But that's protagonist-centered morality for you).

I liked Broccoli, I think he's a terribly interesting character in a show with so many Terribly Clever Perfectly Ethical Golden Child Officers. Plus he looks a bit like bill wurtz so that helps sell the goofy angle. 

The holodeck is already a terrifying idea and if I was Starfleet, I would absolutely put programming in it that would restrict recreations of real people - especially coworkers. 

At the very least, Geordi, password protect your fanfiction crap, geez

----------


## Bohandas

I don;t see why anything would ever need to be restricted in a simulation.

----------


## Wintermoot

> I don;t see why anything would ever need to be restricted in a simulation.


You don't? In today's real-world, people are creating deep fake pornography by taking the image of popular actors and actresses against their wishes and I think it's a pretty big deal and restrictions absolutely belong in place. Write it off as harmless "fan-fiction" all you want, it is extremely harmful to the person whose identity is being misused in myriad ways

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> All of this combines to make the followup Brahms episode a real letdown for me. It's still interesting, but it really doesn't make the most out of the opportunity -- to show Geordi how deeply creepy it is to project his fantasies onto a woman he doesn't know. Hell, he even gets a rant at the end to somehow justify his behavior!


I agree, I think letting Geordi somehow turn the tables on Real-Leah's outrage in the follow-up episode was a bit of a mistake, even though it was based on her assumption that a lot more happened between Geordi and Fake-Leah than actually did. 

It's basically like meeting a colleague who you only know from LinkedIn and finding out they made a lifelike sex doll of you. Despite jumping to conclusions, her feelings are totally valid and shouldn't be dismissed so easily IMO.

I'd rather the episode show that they were both in the wrong, at least.

EDIT:



> I don;t see why anything would ever need to be restricted in a simulation.


Maybe, but there's a difference between privately fantasizing about a real person and that person finding physical evidence that you privately fantasize about them.

----------


## Peelee

> First off, calling him Broccoli is delightful and I'll be doing it forever now, so thanks for that


That's what they do in most of the episodes he's in. I think they dropped it in Voyager, but TNG rode that hard (and it was hilarious). 



> Not a privacy violation, I agree. A deeply creepy thing to do, nonetheless. I would be horrified to learn that a coworker had written romantic fanfiction about me. 
> 
> And that's just written words and imagination -- I would be outright *furious* if I stumbled across a physical recreation of me with a different personality. The sense of invasion and betrayal would be overpowering.
> 
> Remember the early episode where Riker destroys a clone of himself? Same vibe for me - and in fact, I'm kind of surprised Barclay's Riker was played for laughs given that previously established berserk button of Riker's.
> 
> All of this combines to make the followup Brahms episode a real letdown for me. It's still interesting, but it really doesn't make the most out of the opportunity -- to show Geordi how deeply creepy it is to project his fantasies onto a woman he doesn't know. Hell, he even gets a rant at the end to somehow justify his behavior! 
> 
> The fact that he did the exact same thing that Broccoli did ("create a fictionalized version of a person I admire, to provide something the real version won't") is kinda glossed over, or made into a heroic, resourceful thing instead of the embarrassing and unsettling deviance that Broccoli's holodeck shenanigans were portrayed as (But that's protagonist-centered morality for you).
> ...





> I agree, I think letting Geordi somehow turn the tables on Real-Leah's outrage in the follow-up episode was a bit of a mistake, even though it was based on her assumption that a lot more happened between Geordi and Fake-Leah than actually did. 
> 
> It's basically like meeting a colleague who you only know from LinkedIn and finding out they made a lifelike sex doll of you. Despite jumping to conclusions, her feelings are totally valid and shouldn't be dismissed so easily IMO.
> 
> I'd rather the episode show that they were both in the wrong, at least.


Oh, I agree with all that wholeheartedly. It's definitely creepy, and all the rest. It's just not a violation of privacy.

Now, Boimler using everyone's personal logs to create accurate representations with excellent prediction modeling in the holodeck to practice for an interview is the polar opposite: not creepy at all, actually a really good idea, but SUPER violation of privacy.

----------


## Bohandas

> You don't? In today's real-world, people are creating deep fake pornography by taking the image of popular actors and actresses against their wishes and I think it's a pretty big deal and restrictions absolutely belong in place. Write it off as harmless "fan-fiction" all you want, it is extremely harmful to the person whose identity is being misused in myriad ways


That is correct, I don't. 

As long as the deep fake pronography isn't being falsely promoted as real, that's fraud, and that's an entirely different issue.

----------


## Peelee

> You don't? In today's real-world, people are creating deep fake pornography by taking the image of popular actors and actresses against their wishes and I think it's a pretty big deal and restrictions absolutely belong in place


And what relevance does that have here? What you're talking about are people who charge money for appearing in productions, who are made to appear as if they appeared in productions that they did not appear in. This can have both monetary and reputational damage. But this is wholly irrelevant to the Holodeck, which within the Star Trek universe is explicitly a fictional facsimile of any person, place, or thing. If Geordi created Peelee in one of his holodeck simulations, then I would have no monetary or reputational damage (or any other damage), because it is not a production, and no reasonable person would believe that it was, or that I was involved in it in any capacity. 

At the most actionable, it would be likeness rights, but unless it's a holodeck novel that is being published for widescale use (or sold by, say, Quark, in a place outside or at the edge of the Federation space, which still engages in currency), there's really no actual damages.

----------


## Ionathus

If your argument is that the holodeck deepfakes aren't being distributed and are therefore tantamount to private fanfiction, I can understand the logic. 

I still argue that an organization like Starfleet would be well-advised to put some sort of safeguard in place to prevent an officer from walking in on their own Sexy Simulation Self as they're trying to track down where a subordinate went. It's played for creepy laughs with Barclay but it shouldn't be. It's a horrifying thought. 

It's Starfleet's ship, Starfleet's holodeck, which the crew uses at Starfleet's discretion. Were I in that decision-making position, even in a post-scarcity utopia, I would absolutely restrict the holodeck's ability to recreate actual real-life people. At the very least, don't load up the computer with the likeness and personality of every member of your ship that you're all stuck on for 8+ years. That's a fiasco waiting to happen.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> At the most actionable, it would be likeness rights, but unless it's a holodeck novel that is being published for widescale use (or sold by, say, Quark, in a place outside or at the edge of the Federation space, which still engages in currency), there's really no actual damages.


And even that specific case actually happened on Voyager, complete with defamation of character, and there was still zero indication that this had ever been considered a problem by Federation law.

In that episode, the Doctor wrote and published (this was late Voyager when they could call up the Federation) a holonovel using the likenesses of several crewmembers only slightly altered for the story.  The crew were powerless to change this (they were not portrayed in a positive light) and had to resort to pleading with the Doctor to make changes.

It kind of staggers me that different writers across three Trek series of the time were of the stance that the Federation would have no interest in protecting the rights of those duplicated in holo form, when even the Voyager episode (of all series...) manages to make some good points on why they should.

----------


## Peelee

> And even that specific case actually happened on Voyager, complete with defamation of character, and there was still zero indication that this had ever been considered a problem by Federation law.
> 
> In that episode, the Doctor wrote and published (this was late Voyager when they could call up the Federation) a holonovel using the likenesses of several crewmembers only slightly altered for the story.  The crew were powerless to change this (they were not portrayed in a positive light) and had to resort to pleading with the Doctor to make changes.
> 
> It kind of staggers me that different writers across three Trek series of the time were of the stance that the Federation would have no interest in protecting the rights of those duplicated in holo form, when even the Voyager episode (of all series...) manages to make some good points on why they should.


Great catch! Especially given that, by virtue of being writers/directors/producers/showrunners/actors for a major media production, almost everyone involved around be at least possibly familiar with intellectual property and character likeness issues, and yet still figured that wouldn't pose any challemge at all in the story. That can't be oversight - it is almost certainly the case that it's an intentional choice that the Federation does not have defamation or likeness rights as a concept anymore (at least for members of Starfleet).

----------


## The Glyphstone

Random accidentally cloning people is a thing that just happens in the Federation sometimes. Itd be impossible to meaningfully enforce ownership of a likeness when 2+ people legitimately have the rights to it.

----------


## Peelee

> Random accidentally cloning people is a thing that just happens in the Federation sometimes. Itd be impossible to meaningfully enforce ownership of a likeness when 2+ people legitimately have the rights to it.


Imean, likeness rights are enforced IRL and twins exist. :Small Tongue:

----------


## The Glyphstone

> Imean, likeness rights are enforced IRL and twins exist.


Yeah, but twins are there from birth. You can't spontaneously develop an identical twin in your 30s who just mooned the Klingon ambassador, and by the way how are your cardio skills?

----------


## Peelee

> Yeah, but twins are there from birth. You can't spontaneously develop an identical twin in your 30s who just mooned the Klinger ambassador, and by the way how are your cardio skills?


Let's be fair here, the Klinger ambassador has been trying to get a Section 8 for years.

----------


## The Glyphstone

> Let's be fair here, the Klinger ambassador has been trying to get a Section 8 for years.


*Angry bat'leth noises intensify*

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> It's Starfleet's ship, Starfleet's holodeck, which the crew uses at Starfleet's discretion. Were I in that decision-making position, even in a post-scarcity utopia, I would absolutely restrict the holodeck's ability to recreate actual real-life people. At the very least, don't load up the computer with the likeness and personality of every member of your ship that you're all stuck on for 8+ years. That's a fiasco waiting to happen.


Remember that they also use the holodeck for training simulations. That's probably the main reason that the computer contains accurate holo-images of the entire crew. 

It might make sense to restrict the ability to duplicate crew on the holodeck to senior officers or something, but almost all the actual characters are senior officers already, and the vibe on a starship is probably just that the holodecks are mostly used responsibly.

And we've seen holodeck privileges taken away as a punishment, too.

----------


## Ionathus

> Remember that they also use the holodeck for training simulations. That's probably the main reason that the computer contains accurate holo-images of the entire crew. 
> 
> It might make sense to restrict the ability to duplicate crew on the holodeck to senior officers or something, but almost all the actual characters are senior officers already, and the vibe on a starship is probably just that the holodecks are mostly used responsibly.
> 
> And we've seen holodeck privileges taken away as a punishment, too.


Yeah, restricting to senior/training officers, or not allowing them for personal programs, would make a lot of sense.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Eventually by Voyager, people started password protecting at least some of their holoprograms.

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 7
The Enemy
Stardate: 43349.2

[Plot]
the crrew go to a planet that has bad weather. the romulans lost a scout ship. one romulan is found while another is found by geordi when geordi is left behind. geordi and the romulan work together to get rescued and do some manly bonding

meanwhile, the first romulan is ill and needs some medical treatment that requires Worf, who says no. the romulan says no to Worf. dr crusher proceeds to violate medical ethics and chews out Worf and tells him to give in to the Federation. Worf goes to Riker for advice, and he still decided no. Picard has to talk to Worf after dr crusher bugs him. Worf makes it clear that if Picard gives the order, Worf will allow treatment.

meanwhile, Commander G'Kar, Tomalok, contacts the crashed scout ship and will rescue the guys. G'Kar deals with Picard who is cold and obstructive. G'Kar crosses to the planet and uses his bravado on Picard, who is unimpressed. G'Kar allows Picard to beam up geordi and his romulan, with the other having died. Worf gets guilted over this.

G'Kar exchanges words with Picard and then leaves. geordi's romulan is beamed over to G'Kar.

[Rating]
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on
but goes to 
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.

{Episode Commentary}
so this episode works in every way...

except for the stuff with dr crusher. Somehow, despite the romulan saying he didn't want Worf's stuff, that Crusher still acts like she didn't hear any of that. Well, she probably didn't.

This episode is probably TNG's version of Dr. Franklin's problematic episode from Babylon 5. Crusher completely violates Worf's privacy, and tells Picard that Worf would do, but more importantly, refuses to accept Worf saying no to her. Worf has the right, medically speaking, to not be used for treatment. Crusher rushes roughshud all over that right. Worf makes it clear that he will go along if Picard orders him to.

The Romulan refuses treatment. A right that Crusher then proceeds to ignore. What effect would that have had, if she had operated? I am pretty sure that G'Kar would have taken it badly. Neither is there any reason that Crusher should have keep pursuing the matter. All it does is give the impression that Crusher doesn't care about medical ethics or doing her job probably.

I don't see the actor playing DR Mccoy or Bashir or the EMH being willing to accept this kind of behavoir in  their characters. I am prtetty sure that they have commented about whether it fit any kind of medical properness. Even worse, Crusher doesn't even get a slap on the wrist

This may be the first episode that actually shows that the Federation and Starfleet only pay lip service to their ideals, rather than back them up. As soon as the Romulan guy said, no thanks, the entire matter should have been dropped. It wasn't.

I really don't think I am going to be taking Dr Crusher as a qualified Doctor anymore because a fundamental Medical right that is known is the right of REFUSING TREATMENT. Medical Doctors are required to accept that in their code of ethics. How does Crusher get away with this violation? Simple. She has the same boss of medicine as Dr Franklin of Babylon 5, who carries out treatment that was refused, but does it anyway.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 5
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 5 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 2
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## Dire_Flumph

I'm a little baffled by your take.  You have a very different reading of Crusher and Picard's actions than I've ever seen in discussions of this episode.  The entire point is that at every step along the way they are respecting Worf's right to refuse donating his blood.  No one forces Worf to donate.  No one operated on the Romulan against either his or Tomalak's will.  I'm not sure how you could read it otherwise.

The Romulan also does not refuse treatment, he objects to having a transfusion of Klingon blood (and even that was hardly a flat refusal as it was an insult flung at Worf).  Crusher had been treating him with other methods and there is no sign he had been objecting to that.




> Neither is there any reason that Crusher should have keep pursuing the matter.


It was also clear that the Federation and Romulan Empire were at the brink of war here.  A Romulan officer dying on the Enterprise could very well have aided that.  Crusher and Picard have every reason to keep pursuing the matter.  It's also clear Worf acknowledges he understands the situation when talking to Picard.  Worf has his family honor conflicting with his duties as a Starfleet officer.  He's offering Picard a way out of that by pushing him to order the donation.

I think the bigger solution is missed here though.  The problem is they can't meet up with Tomalak because Geordi is stuck on the planet.  I don't recall, was it ever suggested in the episode to separate the ship?  Send the battle section to meet with Tomalak while the saucer continues retrieval attempts?

----------


## Peelee

In addition to what Dire_Flumph says...



> I don't see the actor playing DR Mccoy or Bashir or the EMH being willing to accept this kind of behavoir in  their characters. I am prtetty sure that they have commented about whether it fit any kind of medical properness.


Are you blaming Gates McFadden for this? This is a _super_ weird take, first off because she's an actress and presumably not medically trained, and even if she was, she would probably not be able to override what the script calls for her to do regardless. And also because claiming the other Trek doctors' actors wouldn't have stood for it, considering Dr. Bashir freely talks about specific patients who see him for medical issues to other people (usually in Quark's over a drink or a meal), and the EMH told everyone on the ship about Broccoli's Barclay's personal medical issues. I'm also like 90% sure that Bashir had inappropriate relationships with some of his patients.

This is a really weird complaint, man.

----------


## Tarmor

> This may be the first episode that actually shows that the Federation and Starfleet only pay lip service to their ideals, rather than back them up. As soon as the Romulan guy said, no thanks, the entire matter should have been dropped. It wasn't.


I don't see this as the Federation/Starfleet ignoring their "ideals" - I see this as a bad portrayal of the character (script/writing/editing) in order to make a dramatic story. 
This occurs in most TV series at different points, where characters don't act the way they should (according to past actions , training/profession, etc) merely to make a point or be dramatic.I don't like it when this happens, but I don't consider it a failing of the fictional character, or organisation - just the people who wrote that particular story.

----------


## factotum

> considering Dr. Bashir freely talks about specific patients who see him for medical issues to other people (usually in Quark's over a drink or a meal), and the EMH told everyone on the ship about Broccoli's Barclay's personal medical issues.


Then there was the occasion where the doctor on the Enterprise NX-01 freely narrated Malcolm's medical history to his colleagues just so they could get him a better birthday present. It's like Starfleet has never heard of the Hippocratic Oath.

----------


## russdm

> Crusher and Picard's actions than I've ever seen in discussions of this episode.  
> The Romulan also does not refuse treatment, he objects to having a transfusion of Klingon blood (and even that was hardly a flat refusal as it was an insult flung at Worf).  Crusher had been treating him with other methods and there is no sign he had been objecting to that.


Not sure where you get Crusher doing it, because I only recall/remember the Scene of Picard talking with Worf in his ready room, and Worf commenting about how if Picard orders him, then he will. I don't recall Crusher doing anything to respect things. Maybe she did and I just missed those scenes. I though I recall her coming to Worf and reminding him or something. Maybe not? Maybe that didn't happen?

I also didn't get the impression at all, that if Crusher had the transfusion ready to go, that she would not then do the Transfusion. She spends some time pressuring Worf, from what I recalled seeing. or along those lines.




> I think the bigger solution is missed here though.  The problem is they can't meet up with Tomalak because Geordi is stuck on the planet.  I don't recall, was it ever suggested in the episode to separate the ship?  Send the battle section to meet with Tomalak while the saucer continues retrieval attempts?


I suspect that was for Budget reasons and for reasons of slowing down the pacing and dramatic Tension, and that the writers forgot, as you said.




> In addition to what Dire_Flumph says...
> ...Words...
> This is a really weird complaint, man.


yeah, and I was not thrilled when Bashir did it.

For an actor playing a doctor character, I expect them to have some basic knowledge or a basic overview of what a doctor does, and things that would be known according to pop culture. At the very least.




> Then there was the occasion where the doctor on the Enterprise NX-01 freely narrated Malcolm's medical history to his colleagues just so they could get him a better birthday present. It's like Starfleet has never heard of the Hippocratic Oath.


Given how important the Hippocratic Oath is to doctors, and just a casual set of questions to any doctor would suffice to clarify the important points without needing to heavily consult a specialist, so something the writers could have done easily. I would expect that there would be some effort to make the doctors act a little like doctors ought to. The equilivant would be a character having been truck driver that has driven the same truck for a few years, proceed to get into their truck and get stuck on the gear changes and just not move the right ones. Is a little bit jarring.

To be honest, I was really ticked off over the Worf thing, because of how much it throws up. Yes, the Romulan was accepting other treatment, but to actually survive, he needed the Transfusion; it was the only treatment that they could have done really, and Crusher does make it clear that without the Transfusion, the Romulan is toast. When Worf goes to see the Romulan, Worf Specificily mentions that the Romulan needs Worf's blood/whatever to have the Transfusion so that the Romulan lives.

Then the Romulan clearly tells Worf off and makes it clear he won't accept the material such that the Transfusion can't happen. aside from Crusher acting or sounding like she intends to anyway.

That should have needed everyone's involvement. Worf's, Picard's, Crusher's. Yes, the Romulan definitely will die, but how does Crusher expect to perform the procedure/Transfusion without the Romulan agreeing? He doesn't want it, and Crusher still acts like she expects to do a transfusion.

Picard knows that it would be good to have the Romulan alive, but is willing to accept what Worf wants. He decides that is more important than if the Romulan lives or dies, and that it might cause some problems. Worf lets Picard know that he will go along if Picard orders. Aside from the fact that the Romulan refused to get the transfusion.

So, Then what? Crusher does the transfusion and the Romulan then kills himself because of it? How does G'Kar react to that? being very angry?

As for the Feds and Roms being on the Brink of War:

Nothing in the Episode suggests this point at all, and Picard is worried about a surprise attack, unless you missed the meaning of the Pearl Harbor reference. He doesn't know what the Romulans are up to exactly. If they were on the brink, then the ship should have been at near continual red alert or yellow alert. It didn't appear to be at all.

The whole thing is noted by Picard to be "Brinkmanship" later on.

Really though:

I think that the episode is really good, because we learn about the Romulans and how they think. We learn how good at subterfuge they are, and we get to meet G'Kar who is a pretty good Romulan. Then, we get to learn some things about Geordi that we didn''t know before. So all in all it is a pretty good episode.

However, I don't care for how the episode goes out to make Worf look bad and takes no effort to show any attempt to encourage the Romulan to accept the Transfusion or do anything to establish another way that is risky. It makes clear that the Transfusion is a must do, and Worf must give up blood/whatever for said Transfusion. When Worf hesitates over personal reason, Crusher pushes on Worf, and Riker talks about it, and Picard has his own comments, but, still,...; AT no point is it shown that Crusher wouldn't fail to operate, despite the Romulan saying no.

So, Worf gets ordered by Picard, and Crusher operates as she has been shown/stated that would do. The Romulan had a medical procedure carried out against his will. How is that even acceptable behavior from our heroes? Forcefully performing a medical procedure?

In one episode of Mash, Hawkeye carries out an operation to get a general or commanding officer sent home. It was not needed, the operation, but Hawkeye did it anyway. I thought that it was wrong there to have been done. BJ, his friend in the episode, tells Hawkeye off, and refuses to assist. He acts how i would  have expected the doctors to do in Trek. Well that doesn't happen.

Besides my own feelings and statements, though, it is the point of debating and discussing. I think the episode is worth a 5 or 4, because it is really good, but has a part that i didn't care for that really ticked me off. Had I gone with based on solely feeling, thanks to the bit, I think  that I might have gone lower. My initial reaction was to drop it down to 2 or 3, but in overall episode review, I feel comfortable with going with a 4 for the episode,

So, I was going overboard with the actor comments, but I still really don't like how things went down with Worf. That could have been worked better and it definitely could have used some work to it.

Having a thing that the Romulan could or would want the Transfusion but Worf is saying no, would have been more dramatically better for what the story was trying to tell about worf needing to let go of his hate. Having the Romulan simply saying no in a mean way, means that there is no reason to bring up the transfusion more. the script could have been better here.

----------


## factotum

Still, let's face it, no matter how badly written this episode was with respect to Crusher's character, it can't match up to the sheer character assassination performed by "Sub Rosa"--but I guess we should leave that discussion for when the episode comes up!

----------


## Peelee

> Then there was the occasion where the doctor on the Enterprise NX-01 freely narrated Malcolm's medical history to his colleagues just so they could get him a better birthday present. It's like Starfleet has never heard of the Hippocratic Oath.





> Given how important the Hippocratic Oath is to doctors


Medical privacy is not in the Hippocratic Oath. At least, not in the original version. There are several modern version, none universally or even major ally agreed upon, which do mention medical privacy, but even then, not all modern versions. Heck, the original version even forbade surgery (for the same reason that surgeons in the UK, for example, are not called "doctor").



> For an actor playing a doctor character, I expect them to have some basic knowledge or a basic overview of what a doctor does, and things that would be known according to pop culture. At the very least.


First off, why? They don't need to know a basic overview of what a doctor does (which does not include medical privacy). They need to know how to portray a convincing doctor. There may be some overlap there, but that's all it is - overlap. Other than that, they do what the script tells them to do. How often have you complained about TV doctors themselves running tests instead of nurses or technicians (which happens just _all the time_ in medical shows)? How often have you bristled at the actors having the gall to let their medically trained but non-MD characters give medical advice? Do you shake your fist at the actor whenever you see a defibrillator used to resuscitate someone who's heart has stopped?

This isnt an actors duty, dude. This is the job for the writers, or a consultant (if they choose to bring one one), but ultimately, it's not really that important. Good medicine medicine does not make good entertainment.

Further, let's explore this claim of "basic knowledge". Medical privacy is basic knowledge, sure. But hey, I've worked in the medical field for the last twelve years, and fun fact! I can tell you specific stories about patients I've dealt with without any fear of running afoul of Hipaa and garnering tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars in fines. You know why I'm able to do that? Spoiler alert, it's because medical ethics _are not basic knowledge_. Whatever you think you know, you're probably close enough in broad strokes but wrong on specific details. And there are also instances in Star Trek of the ship doctors talking about other patients which don't violate medical privacy as it is  Can you tell me which ones don't, and why?

And yet, you expect the actors to be able to, even more so than the writers, and also for the actors to refuse to do them. Actually, no, that's wrong. I'm sorry. You expect this of one and only one actress, and make the baseless (and wrong) claim that all other actors not only would have such knowledge but would also refuse to engage in such assassination of their characters.

Its a weird complaint, man.

Also, I recommend against watching any shows or movies with lawyers in it. Ever.

----------


## factotum

> Medical privacy is not in the Hippocratic Oath. At least, not in the original version. There are several modern version, none universally or even major ally agreed upon, which do mention medical privacy, but even then, not all modern versions.


The text "And whatsoever I shall see or hear in the course of my profession, as well as outside my profession in my intercourse with men, if it be what should not be published abroad, I will never divulge, holding such things to be holy secrets." has been in there since at least 1923, and are you suggesting that the version of this Oath they have in the future will *not* include that for some reason?

----------


## Peelee

> Originally Posted by Peelee
> 
> 
> Medical privacy is not in the Hippocratic Oath. At least, not in the original version. There are several modern version, none universally or even major ally agreed upon, which do mention medical privacy, but even then, not all modern versions.
> 
> 
> The text "And whatsoever I shall see or hear in the course of my profession, as well as outside my profession in my intercourse with men, if it be what should not be published abroad, I will never divulge, holding such things to be holy secrets." has been in there since at least 1923, and are you suggesting that the version of this Oath they have in the future will *not* include that for some reason?


That was an excellent rebuttal to the first sentence of mine you quoted, but oddly did not address the entire rest of the quote.

----------


## Dire_Flumph

> Not sure where you get Crusher doing it, because I only recall/remember the Scene of Picard talking with Worf in his ready room, and Worf commenting about how if Picard orders him, then he will. I don't recall Crusher doing anything to respect things. Maybe she did and I just missed those scenes. I though I recall her coming to Worf and reminding him or something. Maybe not? Maybe that didn't happen?
> 
> I also didn't get the impression at all, that if Crusher had the transfusion ready to go, that she would not then do the Transfusion. She spends some time pressuring Worf, from what I recalled seeing. or along those lines.


You seem certain that Crusher would push ahead with the transfusion if the patient formally refused treatment, and that's what I'm unclear about because she doesn't.  She has to get the transfusion first from Worf.  If Worf won't donate, then the issue is moot.  And both Crusher and Picard make clear they will not force Worf to donate anything without consent.

The Romulan never refuses treatment, I looked up a transcript online and he has five lines in the episode.  Two refusing to tell Picard why he crossed the Neutral Zone and three talking to Worf.  

*Spoiler: The only relevant dialogue is:*
Show

CRUSHER: Lieutenant, his life is coming to an end. I thought it important for you to see him again. It's not too late to change your mind.
(Crusher leaves)
PATAHK: Come close to me, Klingon. Let me die with my hands at your throat.
WORF: There is a substance within my cells which you need to survive.
PATAHK: Then you've come to hear me beg for my life?
WORF: No.
PATAHK: I would rather die than pollute my body with Klingon filth!


The last line is not a refusal of treatment.  He's been unconscious most of the episode, is not fully aware of the situation, has not been medically advised (from what we've seen) of what his options are, and is in an adversarial conversation with Worf.  The Romulan may have refused a transfusion later, but we weren't at that point yet.  The block at this point is Worf and Worf only.  Remember the other Romulan officer in the episode as an example.  He also starts out making bold, insulting pronouncements, but when he takes in his options, he is also willing to compromise to live.

What I'm confused about is why do you think Crusher would perform the transfusion against the patients wishes if it comes to that?  There is no dialogue in the episode that indicates she will override anyone's rights of refusal.

----------


## Peelee

> You seem certain that Crusher would push ahead with the transfusion if the patient formally refused treatment, and that's what I'm unclear about because she doesn't.  She has to get the transfusion first from Worf.  If Worf won't donate, then the issue is moot.  And both Crusher and Picard make clear they will not force Worf to donate anything without consent.
> 
> The Romulan never refuses treatment, I looked up a transcript online and he has five lines in the episode.  Two refusing to tell Picard why he crossed the Neutral Zone and three talking to Worf.  
> 
> *Spoiler: The only relevant dialogue is:*
> Show
> 
> CRUSHER: Lieutenant, his life is coming to an end. I thought it important for you to see him again. It's not too late to change your mind.
> (Crusher leaves)
> ...


I'm also reminded of a M*A*S*H episode where a white soldier who needed blood told Dr. Pierce to make sure the blood "came from the right people".

----------


## KillianHawkeye

I like this episode because it shows that "the enemy" are not a monolithic faceless entity but rather come in individuals who have different feelings about compromise and working together. And the best part is that this is shown from both sides. On the planet, Geordi is able find common ground with the Romulan and they work together to survive. On the ship, Worf and the other Romulan are both unwilling to give up their mutual antagonism even at the cost of the Romulan's life.

The part with Doctor Crusher thinking she's right and Worf is wrong was certainly played up for drama, so blame the writers for it. But I don't think she crossed any ethical lines, she just didn't agree with Worf's decision and thought she could change his mind.

As far as the Hippocratic Oath goes, I don't remember anything but the "doing no harm" part EVER being mentioned on a TV show (although I haven't watched any actual medical dramas in 15 or 20 years). As far as most people know, that's literally all it is.

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## Peelee

> As far as the Hippocratic Oath goes, I don't remember anything but the "doing no harm" part EVER being mentioned on a TV show (although I haven't watched any actual medical dramas in 15 or 20 years). As far as most people know, that's literally all it is.


Which is fairly notable, since "first, do no harm" is not even in it. Not the original (likely by circumstance), and not in many of the modern versions (due to practicality).

----------


## Lord Vukodlak

Alright in the episode what medical rights does the Romulans have?
None, he has no right to refuse medical treatment and his opinions are not up for debate. Riker flat out states he was caught spying in Federation territory and they have the right to hold him indefinitely. The Federation is under no obligations to let a spy commit suicide via medical refusal.

Im not the first person to suggest this but Worf wanted Picard to order him to undergo the transfusion. His code of honor wouldnt let him give up the blood of his parents to an enemy of his people. But if his captain makes it an order then its not him doing the giving.

However Picard cant give that order, for the obvious ethical reasons.
Also if the Romulan had simply said he wanted to live but wouldnt beg for his life. Worf cloud probably have found a way to square it with his Klingon honor.

The dynamics between Geordi on the planet and Worf in space are intended to mirror one another. Geordi and his Romulan can let go of their mutual mistrusts
But Worf and his Romulan could not.

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## Peelee

> Alright in the episode what medical rights does the Romulans have?
> None


Nice to know the Federation can use prisoners for medical experimentation.

----------


## Gnoman

The conflict here feels very much like they were inspired by the TOS episode _Journey To Babel_, which dealt with a similar situation of the only candidate for a vital blood transfusion refusing. The reason is different, but there are a lot of shared story beats, and the criticisms of Crusher feel like they stem from the writers sticking too close to the inspiration. Here, the issue was not conflicting duties, but rather a deep and fundamental hatred - Worf hates all Romulans because they killed his birth family and homeworld. I think he even knows it is irrational, but can't bring himself to overcome it - that's why he is willing to obey if Picard orders it. 



Summary of the _Babel_ episode conflict.

*Spoiler*
Show

Spock's father Sarek needs emergency heart surgery or he will die, and Spock is the only possible candidate because he and his father share a very rare Vulcan blood type. Unfortunately Kirk is badly wounded and unfit for duty, leaving Spock in command of the ship. So he decides his duty to Starfleet and his ship outweighs his duty to his father and refuses to provide the blood. McCoy teams up with Kirk to trick Spock into thinking Kirk is well - Kirk takes command long enough to convince Spock things are fine, then passes command off as soon as Spock's in place for the transfusion.

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## Bohandas

> So, Worf gets ordered by Picard, and Crusher operates as she has been shown/stated that would do. The Romulan had a medical procedure carried out against his will. How is that even acceptable behavior from our heroes? Forcefully performing a medical procedure?


I could totally imagine a future where this sort of thing is acceptable, as an offshoot of public health being prioritized over wackness and hysteria.

Imagine this scenario: Measles comes back, and then comes back again, and then finally the public says "no, we're not going to do things that way anymore"

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 8
The Price
Stardate: 43385.6

[Plot]
Troi meets a fancy negoiator and also does some stretches with dr Crusher. And something about a wormhole? And some Ferengi show up.

[Rating]
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)


{Episode Commentary}
I think the focus of this episode was about Troi get the moves on with her fancy negoiator and periodically a return to checking out the wormhole. Not sure that it had any really interesting thing happening. I got bored with it, especially because...

well, I was wanting to see some negiotiating by the Federation and the others. I don't think that  having the Ferengi show up were needed, and all in all, the entire plot felt like padding so we could get back to Troi and mr Fancy-pants.

then there was the wormhole  which was there. which could have had some more than about the value. i don't know, something to take away from troi and mr fancy pants. also that time should have been spent on the actual negotiating. i still don't know what was offered by any of the parties or what was going on there.

i think that the plot was the fan service because nothing stands out to me to remember

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 5
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 5 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 2
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## Velaryon

I had to look the episode up because the description you gave was pretty vague. It was an okay-ish episode, not a particularly good or bad one. The wormhole thing was about what they thought was a stable wormhole, similar to the one at Bajor. But since the local planet didn't have the technology to fully utilize it, they are auctioning it to the highest bidder. Troi's love interest of the episode (who I didn't care for, as I recall) is secretly part Betazoid, which is how he has an advantage against the other negotiators. It turns out that the wormhole is _not_ stable, so even though Ral manages to win the negotiations, he ends up with a worthless prize on behalf of his people.

If I were rating this episode, I'd probably give it either a 2 or a 3. If fractions aren't allowed I'd round up to a 3 but it's really more of a 2.5.

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## factotum

Don't remember the episode, and looking it up on IMDB shows it to be one of the lower scoring episodes of the season (it gets a 6.3/10), so that probably explains why it was so unmemorable.

----------


## Wintermoot

A couple interesting things sprung out of this episode: 

The two ferengi who were lost in the wormhole reappeared in Star Trek Voyager (also, famously, lost in the delta quadrant) in a fun episode.The idea of a stable wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant percolated so hard in the minds of the show's runners that it became a major focus of DS9.The race auctioning the wormhole, the Barzan, a member of that race has popped up on Star Trek Discovery.

----------


## Peelee

> A couple interesting things sprung out of this episode: 
> 
> The two ferengi who were lost in the wormhole reappeared in Star Trek Voyager (also, famously, lost in the delta quadrant) in a fun episode.


One of my favorite Voyager episodes, I gotta say.

----------


## Velaryon

This isn't related to the last episode discussed here (or any one episode in particular, for that matter), but as my own TNG rewatch is nearing its end, I've come to the conclusion that Geordi is by far the most underutilized of the main cast, with the possible exception of Dr. Crusher. He has far fewer episodes centered on him than many of the other characters, and the ones he does get are often not great episodes. Also, his visor's capabilities are one of the most underused plot devices, as if the writers never really had much of an idea of what to do with it.

----------


## factotum

That's largely par for the course. Scotty was hardly front and centre most of the time in the original series, it was largely the Kirk, McCoy and Spock show (with friends). That might even have been why they moved Geordi into engineering after the first season, they just didn't know what to do with him!

----------


## Peelee

> That's largely par for the course. Scotty was hardly front and centre most of the time in the original series, it was largely the Kirk, McCoy and Spock show (with friends). That might even have been why they moved Geordi into engineering after the first season, they just didn't know what to do with him!


He was originally going to be cut from the cast after season 1, IIRC, and a blind fan wrote in to say how they loved that there was a blind character (in a way), so they opted to keep him for representative/motivational reasons.

----------


## factotum

> He was originally going to be cut from the cast after season 1, IIRC, and a blind fan wrote in to say how they loved that there was a blind character (in a way), so they opted to keep him for representative/motivational reasons.


Just did a search and can't find anything confirming that online, do you remember where you heard it?

----------


## Gnoman

That sounds like a mangling of the George La Forge story with the MLK story for Uhura in TOS.

When they decided to add a disabled character to the main cast, the people in charge chose to name that character after a quadriplegic by the name of George La Forge, who was prominent in the fan community before his death in 1975.

Nichelle Nichols has talked many times about intending to leave the original show because the role of Uhura was too minor until a conversation with MLK himself asked her to stay on because seeing a black woman in such a prominent TV role was too important. This belief was later confirmed when Whoopi Goldberg demanded a role on TNG as a result of growing up watching Uhura.

----------


## Peelee

> Just did a search and can't find anything confirming that online, do you remember where you heard it?


Yeah, it was some person who went by the handle "apocryphal".

Whoops. :Small Red Face:

----------


## Velaryon

> That's largely par for the course. Scotty was hardly front and centre most of the time in the original series, it was largely the Kirk, McCoy and Spock show (with friends). That might even have been why they moved Geordi into engineering after the first season, they just didn't know what to do with him!


It may have been a contributing factor. He definitely still had a prominent role in a lot of episodes, but most of it was in the form of supporting other characters' plot lines and being one of the two biggest sources of technobabble (the other being Data, of course). I think part of the problem is that a lot of the unique capabilities Geordi might have had because of his visor could just as easily be delivered by anybody holding a tricorder. But it wasn't just that - he got less personality development than many of the other characters as well. The only information I remember about his family came from a 7th season episode centering around his mother. He rather infamously has fewer romantic prospects than any of the other main cast, too. I think even Wesley Crusher was more successful in the romance department than poor Geordi.

He's still a cool character, but definitely not as well used by the writers as most of his castmates.

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 9
The Vengeance Factor
Stardate: 43421.9

[Plot]
the crew go to visit a place that has things stolen from. it turns out to be a bunch of marauders called gatherers. the crew find them after taking the leader lady from a planet with her chef, yuta.

yuta becomes a squeeze for riker, while she goes off and kills a guy. riker goes to make his time with yuta to be between two equals. the crew go to the leading place of the gatherers, and for reasons, dr redhead checks out the dead guy

that ends up leading to how yuta was the one who killed the guy. this means riker has to do something. the leader of the gatherers is part of the clan that killed those of yuta's clan. riker zaps yuta and gets drunk, oh and that leader guy survives

[Rating]
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

{Episode Commentary}
this is a little worse than mediocre.

it feels like two separate plots were combined, gatherers and yuta, and smashed into a mixed mess. neither can really carry emotional weight and then the story is...

to be honest, i would have liked to see riker stop yuta while she kills the leader of the gatherers. it feels like it would have kept the emotional beats from the leader lady about revenge and feuds.  

i also don't know why yuta doesn't take steps to steal a small phaser and shoot people. it would have helped.

yeah it has the dual plots and the boring ending                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 5
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 5 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; 
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

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## Bohandas

> is star trek a good movie series?


The TV shows are what carry it, not the movies. The movies are average sci-fi

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## factotum

> The TV shows are what carry it, not the movies. The movies are average sci-fi


Depends which movies you're talking about. Wrath of Khan is a very good SF movie, I'd say, helped massively by some of William Shatner and Ricardo Montalban's best performances. A lot of them tend to be OK with good bits...like the battle scene at the end of Nemesis, which is by far and away the best part of what is a rather pedestrian movie.

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## DigoDragon

> ...like the battle scene at the end of Nemesis, which is by far and away the best part of what is a rather pedestrian movie.


Ironic considering that movie introduced a dune buggy for the Enterprise crew just to have a car chase scene. And yet...

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## Seppl

> A lot of them tend to be OK with good bits...like the battle scene at the end of Nemesis, which is by far and away the best part of what is a rather pedestrian movie.


That's rather faint praise, considering that movie was so awful, it turned me and others away from ever watching a Star Trek movie again. The only things I remember about the space battle is 10 minutes of bad CGI, and a lot of Hollywood tactics that don't make any sense.

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## Peelee

> a lot of Hollywood tactics that don't make any sense.


There's this book in the old Star Wars EU, Legends now, called _Jedi Trial_. It was written by two authors, one of them a former Lance Corporal in the Marines, and the other a former Sergeant Major in the Army.

They drew heavily upon their military experience, and in that, they taught me an invaluable lesson. You can have good tactics, or you can have an entertaining story. "Neither" is, of course, an option, but is not really relevant to the point I'm making.

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## russdm

> There's this book in the old Star Wars EU, Legends now, called _Jedi Trial_. It was written by two authors, one of them a former Lance Corporal in the Marines, and the other a former Sergeant Major in the Army.
> 
> They drew heavily upon their military experience, and in that, they taught me an invaluable lesson. You can have good tactics, or you can have an entertaining story. "Neither" is, of course, an option, but is not really relevant to the point I'm making.


my memory of that particular book is that it was written to cancel out some of the stuff from the jedi academy trilogy

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## factotum

> That's rather faint praise, considering that movie was so awful, it turned me and others away from ever watching a Star Trek movie again. The only things I remember about the space battle is 10 minutes of bad CGI, and a lot of Hollywood tactics that don't make any sense.


I thought the CGI was fine. Tactics, well, yes, there were clearly moments when the writers forgot this was in space and there's a third dimension to worry about--like the bit where the Enterprise fires phasers in all directions around it, but only on what would be the horizon if it were a water-borne ship, and somehow manages to hit the Scimitar regardless--but it was at least entertaining. Which is more than can be said for most of that movie.

(Speaking of which...how many people got killed because they were asleep in their quarters in the front part of the saucer when Picard rammed the Scimitar? We kind of never hear about that. Heck, he never even gave an order to evacuate the forward part of the ship, just told the crew to brace themselves!).

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## Seppl

> There's this book in the old Star Wars EU, Legends now, called _Jedi Trial_. It was written by two authors, one of them a former Lance Corporal in the Marines, and the other a former Sergeant Major in the Army.
> 
> They drew heavily upon their military experience, and in that, they taught me an invaluable lesson. You can have good tactics, or you can have an entertaining story. "Neither" is, of course, an option, but is not really relevant to the point I'm making.


It is a fictional scenario, so you can make work whatever you want, but what I mostly meant, that it did not make any sense internally, nor with existing canon. Which is bad for storytelling because it makes the audience drop their suspension of disbelief when your story does not follow its own rules. I don't want to go into too much detail because I do not want to re-watch it but the whole finale, ramming the other ship, is just bad:
Did Picard just casually kill hundreds of his own? I can see it was a desperate situation, but not even an evacuation order? There was plenty of time. Is the saucer not the part where the living quarters are? Where all the non-combat personnel should be at that time?Were we not to pretend that the ships being in knife-fight range to each other was just cinematic effect and not real? Was it not always the case that everything actually happens thousands of kilometers apart? The whole finale makes no sense unless you tell me the engagement range of future space warships is actually less than a guy with a pistol.The worst offender: The whole premise does not work! The Romulan ship still has reasonably strong shields at that point, they explicitly call out that fact and give it as the reason why no other options would work. Where were those shields when they rammed into it? Are we to assume that ships can just pass through shields? Then why can't a torpedo? Why was this never ever used before or after? This is like the lightspeed-ramming in The Last Jedi, as it makes everyone in canon look stupid for never considering this option, if it is an option. Surely would have been handy to stop the Borg by just ramming some old vessel full of explosives through their shields! (Yes, I know Riker considers this as an action of last resort in The Best of Both Worlds, but he also knows that it will almost assuredly fail).

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## factotum

> Were we not to pretend that the ships being in knife-fight range to each other was just cinematic effect and not real? Was it not always the case that everything actually happens thousands of kilometers apart? The whole finale makes no sense unless you tell me the engagement range of future space warships is actually less than a guy with a pistol.


Well, you can see in the shot where the Enterprise starts its run toward the Scimitar that yes, the ships are at most a kilometre or two apart at that point. Unfortunately, you can blame Nicholas Meyer for that--he decided that he wanted the combat scenes in Wrath of Khan to be like submarines fighting each other, so he had the ships be close together at their first encounter because they were believed friendly, then put them in a nebula that severely restricted how far they could see for the final fight. Later Star Trek, both TV and movies, used the same close-quarters combat approach without any of the justifications used for it to make sense in Wrath of Khan.

Having said that, spaceship combat occurring at ranges where both vessels are together in the frame is hardly specific to Star Trek, it's been commonplace for years--just look at the WW1 dogfighting the ships in "Star Wars" participate in! It happens so much that when a series attempts to do anything different (e.g. the battle of Gorash VII in "Babylon 5", where the enemy forces are never visible at the same time) it's uncommon enough to be noteworthy.

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## Manga Shoggoth

> ...he decided that he wanted the combat scenes in Wrath of Khan to be like submarines fighting each other, so he had the ships be close together at their first encounter because they were believed friendly, then put them in a nebula that severely restricted how far they could see for the final fight. Later Star Trek, both TV and movies, used the same close-quarters combat approach without any of the justifications used for it to make sense in Wrath of Khan.


And, as I remember, they also played explicitly on Khan being used to a two-dimensional (ish) battlefield so deliberately going going up and over (or under - I can't recall) to confuse him.

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## KillianHawkeye

I assume there aren't a lot of people sleeping when the ship is at battle stations. Off-duty personnel and civilians are probably sheltering in a secure part of the ship. Even if people did die, at this point Picard is basically willing to sacrifice his entire ship and crew to save Earth and all the other planets Shinzon is planning to annihilate.

As for shields, I don't think they've ever been shown to be strong enough to stop something as large as an entire starship. And while the Scimitar is about twice the size of the Enterprise, the same tactic wouldn't work on a Borg cube because they're insanely large by comparison and famously have no vital areas (except when Picard needs to destroy one fast in First Contact, but he has Borg cheat codes).

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## factotum

> Even if people did die, at this point Picard is basically willing to sacrifice his entire ship and crew to save Earth and all the other planets Shinzon is planning to annihilate.
> 
> the same tactic wouldn't work on a Borg cube because they're insanely large by comparison and famously have no vital areas (except when Picard needs to destroy one fast in First Contact, but he has Borg cheat codes).


Well, regarding the first point, he didn't even *attempt* to order people out of the front of the ship, despite having plenty of time to do so. And even on a warship--which Starfleet ships are explicitly generally not--you expect some of the crew to be asleep at any particular time because it's not their shift? People don't function well without sleep, this has been known for a very long time even in our own time period.

On the second point, if First Contact is anything to go by then ramming is totally a tactic that *would* work on a Borg cube, or else Worf wouldn't have ordered the Defiant to ramming speed when its weapons were taken out. Or at the very least, *he* believed it would work.

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## Peelee

> On the second point, if First Contact is anything to go by then ramming is totally a tactic that *would* work on a Borg cube, or else Worf wouldn't have ordered the Defiant to ramming speed when its weapons were taken out. Or at the very least, *he* believed it would work.


That would be a nearly unassailable point if it were anyone else. Worf has Klingon honor - not as much as those raised in Klingon society, of course, but today is still a good day to die. When the Defiant has no more weapons, the Defiant itself is a weapon. At least, for a Klingon.

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## hamishspence

> Worf has Klingon honor - not as much as those raised in Klingon society, of course, but today is still a good day to die.


I got the impression that Worf was _more_ honourable than the typical Klingon - due to _not_ being raised among them, he takes 'being honourable' to extreme lengths - overcompensating - whereas the average Klingon is more willing to compromise on a lot of things.

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## Peelee

> I got the impression that Worf was _more_ honourable than the typical Klingon - due to _not_ being raised among them, he takes 'being honourable' to extreme lengths - overcompensating - whereas the average Klingon is more willing to compromise on a lot of things.


Possibly. He seemed less readily suicidal at being inconvenienced, but I may be misremembering.

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## Gnoman

> you expect some of the crew to be asleep at any particular time because it's not their shift?


Not in combat. Crew quarters were one of the areas specifically _not_ armored in the old days because any time you might have shells hitting them, they'd be empty.

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## KillianHawkeye

Please try to stay asleep when the sirens and flashing red lights are going non-stop and let me know how it goes.  :Small Amused: 

"All hands on deck" is a phrase for a reason.

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## Kantaki

> Please try to stay asleep when the sirens and flashing red lights are going non-stop and let me know how it goes.


You haven't heard my alarm. :Small Tongue: 
But seriously, if I'm tired enough I will sleep through the end of the world or turn around and go back to sleep if I somehow do wake up. :Small Amused: 

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't make it into Starfleet though. :Small Big Grin:

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## tomandtish

> And, as I remember, they also played explicitly on Khan being used to a two-dimensional (ish) battlefield so deliberately going going up and over (or under - I can't recall) to confuse him.


Important to note that they make that comment.... and then completely undo it by coming up to his level behind him before attacking. There was nothing stopping them from attacking him from 'below". So even while acknowledging the issue they then ignore it.

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## Peelee

> Important to note that they make that comment.... and then completely undo it by coming up to his level behind him before attacking. There was nothing stopping them from attacking him from 'below". So even while acknowledging the issue they then ignore it.


It may have been intentional in case their attack failed for whatever reason. They could try to pull it off again, which would be harder if he was then expecting it.

Of course, they never say any of that, so I don't give them much credit and I agree with you, but that's a possible justification in-universe.

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## factotum

The thing that always puzzled me about that scene was--the bit on the bridge after the Enterprise rises up behind the Reliant makes it quite clear they don't know exactly where Khan is. But the Enterprise was turning as is came up and ended up facing in the right direction to see the enemy. So how did it do that? Sheer luck?

As for that not really making sense in a 3D battle, like I said, Nick Meyer wanted it to work like a battle between submarines, including the Enterprise "submerging" to hide from Khan and then rising up again to torpedo him! The things that annoyed me about it were mainly (a) they completely wasted a phaser blast because it hit one of the Reliant's warp nacelles, which then got blown completely off by the subsequent torpedo, and (b) despite all the weapons hits being on parts of the ship about as far from the bridge as it's possible to get, it still managed to fatally wound Khan himself.

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## DigoDragon

> On the second point, if First Contact is anything to go by then ramming is totally a tactic that *would* work on a Borg cube, or else Worf wouldn't have ordered the Defiant to ramming speed when its weapons were taken out. Or at the very least, *he* believed it would work.


If nothing else, a large mass like the Defiant hitting the cube at a significant fraction of c using impulse engines would leave a sizable hole in the cube. The kinetic energy of such impacts are pretty large.

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## Seppl

> If nothing else, a large mass like the Defiant hitting the cube at a significant fraction of c using impulse engines would leave a sizable hole in the cube. The kinetic energy of such impacts are pretty large.


But it does not make sense in universe. Why do they have any other weapons or use this more often? If the humble impulse drive is able to generate so much energy as to make a difference to Borg defenses, then strap that fuel to a torpedo! Clearly it is must more potent than antimatter or whatever they put into the regular warheads.

With Worf in Fist Contact I can see the ramming order excused as "a Klingon thing". Also makes sense as no other ships are doing it, and we don't actually see it working.

With Nemesis I can see no excuse at it is actually working when it should not.

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## Poldon

> But it does not make sense in universe. Why do they have any other weapons or use this more often? If the humble impulse drive is able to generate so much energy as to make a difference to Borg defenses, then strap that fuel to a torpedo! Clearly it is must more potent than antimatter or whatever they put into the regular warheads.


It's not just a matter of the impulse drive's acceleration, but rather a combination of mass and acceleration.  A starship is several orders of magnitude more massive than a torpedo, and thus would generate a more forceful impact on collision.  Add to this the antimatter reserves on a starship, and you have a very energetic impact.

*Spoiler: Spoiler for "The Doomsday Machine," TOS*
Show

And as for in-universe use, I would say it goes all the way back to "The Doomsday Machine" of the Original Series, when Commodore Decker flies the _Constellation_ into the eponymous planet eater to destroy it.

Correction:  _Kirk orders this, after Decker tries it with a shuttlecraft._

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## Seppl

> It's not just a matter of the impulse drive's acceleration, but rather a combination of mass and acceleration.  A starship is several orders of magnitude more massive than a torpedo, and thus would generate a more forceful impact on collision.  Add to this the antimatter reserves on a starship, and you have a very energetic impact.


Still, the impulse engine can generate in a few seconds the energy necessary to punch through Romulan/Borg shields, when hours of constant barrage from dedicated weapon systems (some of them powered by the anti-matter warp core, others bringing their own dedicated anti-matter charge) had virtually no effect? The shields that are also powered by reactors capable of supplying warp-energy? You cannot really argue with real world physics because that is not how Star Trek miracle technology operates. Within the Star Trek miracle technology it makes no sense at all for the tiny backup drive to be this powerful a weapon, and if it were this powerful it makes no sense why nobody else ever uses this power. The combat section of the separated Enterprise-D does not even have impulse power. Clearly, those ship designers were missing something important! Maybe they got the separation process backwards, and the real intent was to smash the impulse driven saucer into the enemy and still have a warp drive to fly home with?



> *Spoiler: Spoiler for "The Doomsday Machine," TOS*
> Show
> 
> And as for in-universe use, I would say it goes all the way back to "The Doomsday Machine" of the Original Series, when Commodore Decker flies the _Constellation_ into the eponymous planet eater to destroy it.
> 
> Correction:  _Kirk orders this, after Decker tries it with a shuttlecraft._


Wait, but they did not use ramming, they blew up the whole reactor! The "ramming" was only used to bring the reactor to the vulnerable spot.

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## hamishspence

> The combat section of the separated Enterprise-D does not even have impulse power.


Sure it does. It flies at sublight speed as well as in warp - that's done with an impulse engine. The red rectangle at the "base of the neck" - that's the engineering hull's impulse engine.

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## Seppl

> Sure it does. It flies at sublight speed as well as in warp - that's done with an impulse engine. The red rectangle at the "base of the neck" - that's the engineering hull's impulse engine.


Sorry. I remembered that Riker at first did not want to separate the Enterprise in BoBW because he wanted the impulse power from the saucer section. But looking it up, he did not want to separate because he wanted the _extra_ impulse power from the saucer section, because the saucer has an additional impulse drive.

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## Peelee

> It's not just a matter of the impulse drive's acceleration, but rather a combination of mass and acceleration.  A starship is several orders of magnitude more massive than a torpedo, and thus would generate a more forceful impact on collision.


F=ma. With a big enough a, m can be fairly negligible.

This is the problem with hyperspace ramming or warp ramming. If it's possible, then it is absolutely _devastating_ and either should have been weaponized already or should immediately be weaponized on a large scale. Either way, the entire method of warfare in whatever universe it occurs in should be radically and irrevocably changed (similarly, the '09 Star Trek film managed tk largely invalidate the need for spaceships going forward in the ST universe. Abrams, as I am fond of saying, is a hack).

The problem is people are not good at conceptualizing numbers. We have certain limits, and even when we can acknowledge these limits and learn to _work_ past them, it's still really hard to _see_ past them. It's like the short fat glass and the tall thin glass. We instinctively think the taller one has more water because our brains aren't built to imagine the raw power of exponential increase (if you think otherwise, simple question: how many beers fit in a Frisbee? You've played with a Frisbee before, you know the rough shape and dimensions, but hey, here's a nice visual anyway. How many beers? No writing things down, no hard numbers allowed. Stop doing math. Use your head. And you will most likely be wrong, because your brain (assuming you, dear reader, are human) is simply not built for intuitively understanding that level of increase.

Or, as another example I love to use, let's say money is time. No discussion about anything other than money and time here, let's keep this forum-safe. One dollar is one second. Easy peasy. Google tells me that the richest man in the world is Elon Musk (I have my doubts, but let's not go there for a multitude of reasons). Net worth at 229.1 billion. For ease of math, let's poor him up a bit and put it at a nice, even 229. 229 billion dollars seems pretty dang rich to anyone. But the sheer extent of just how insanely rich that is doesn't hit us, because we aren't built to comprehend numbers that big. Hell, we can't really comprehend 100,000, much less 1,000,000,000, much less 200,000,000,000. Or even just how much more 200 billion is than one billion.

So, anyway, one dollar equals one second. Let's say you're a millionaire. If you earned one dollar per second to be a millionaire, you would have started with nothing roughly around last Tuesday. If you have one billion dollars? That takes you back to 1990. That's a freaking _enormous_ difference. The joke that the difference between a million dollars and a billion dollars is about a billion dollars, that joke really hits you now, doesn't it? It's one think to know the values, it's another thing to process it in a way our brain can intuitively understand. We can understand weeks and years. The difference between a week ago and 32 years ago is about 32 years.

But wait, the ghost of Billy Mays says, theres more! That's just one simple billion. Ol' Musky has 229, remember. That puts us to.... 7,300 years ago. Fun fact! When the Roman Empire rose, the Great Pyramids of Giza were already ancient. That amount of money puts us _before the pyramids were built._ It is an *insane* amount of money that we simply cannot comprehend by simply saying "229 billion dollars". Our brains cannot process it. Hell, we can't even process 7,000 years. Even the simplified version blows past us at that point.

And FTL travel? That is way, way, _way_ bigger numbers than anything we've mentioned here, if you want to talk about force. They'll start enormous and grow faster than you can possibly imagine, quite literally. FTL ramming is a bad idea to put into stories unless you want to build your stories around that being a major focal point.

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## tomandtish

> It's not just a matter of the impulse drive's acceleration, but rather a combination of mass and acceleration.  A starship is several orders of magnitude more massive than a torpedo, and thus would generate a more forceful impact on collision.  Add to this the antimatter reserves on a starship, and you have a very energetic impact.
> 
> *Spoiler: Spoiler for "The Doomsday Machine," TOS*
> Show
> 
> And as for in-universe use, I would say it goes all the way back to "The Doomsday Machine" of the Original Series, when Commodore Decker flies the _Constellation_ into the eponymous planet eater to destroy it.
> 
> Correction:  _Kirk orders this, after Decker tries it with a shuttlecraft._


Mark Kloos' Frontline series has a nice bit on this. 

*Spoiler*
Show

Enemy ships are so large and powerful that nukes barely scratch them. When cornered by one, a scientist has the idea of filling an old ship with water and ramming into theenemy at about .25c. In her words (roughly): "You're thinking about normal explosions. I want to create an astrological event that will be visible on Earth in 25 years". 



Some reading I did a bit ago seems to imply that if you ran a chunk of solid steel about the size of a football into the planet, you might not destroy the planet but you'd probably kill everything on it,

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## factotum

> Some reading I did a bit ago seems to imply that if you ran a chunk of solid steel about the size of a football into the planet, you might not destroy the planet but you'd probably kill everything on it,


Um, well, that would depend how fast said football was? In order to cause devastation on the sort of scale you're talking about you'd have to have it travelling pretty near lightspeed. I estimate your metal football would have a mass of approximately 50kg, so at 0.25c it would have a kinetic energy of about 140 petajoules, which is the equivalent of a 35 megaton bomb. We've exploded bombs bigger than that right here on Earth and we don't appear to be all dead just yet.

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## DigoDragon

> But it does not make sense in universe. Why do they have any other weapons or use this more often?


I imagine that building starships is an expensive/time consuming endeavor. Using them as torpedoes is probably not an efficient use of resources.

It also might not always work, such as the attempt done at the beginning of the JJ Abrams Trek movie.

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## Peelee

> I imagine that building starships is an expensive/time consuming endeavor. Using them as torpedoes is probably not an efficient use of resources.


I don't think anyone who uses this argument thinks "they should build more starships to waste as torpedoes. Complete with life support and windows and furniture". I think the argument is more "they should take large amounts of mass, which they have enormous amounts of and easy access to, and strap an FTL engine to them to use as torpedoes".

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## factotum

The thing is, though--ramming is totally a valid tactic in real-world naval battles. Yet pretty much no-one builds dedicated ramming ships in reality, at least not nowadays? (And back in the days when they *did* build such things, they were designed to survive the collision). So I always find it a little odd when people deploy the argument "If it was such a good tactic everyone would do it!" when that hasn't been borne out by the actions of real naval tacticians.

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## Peelee

> The thing is, though--ramming is totally a valid tactic in real-world naval battles. Yet pretty much no-one builds dedicated ramming ships in reality, at least not nowadays? (And back in the days when they *did* build such things, they were designed to survive the collision). So I always find it a little odd when people deploy the argument "If it was such a good tactic everyone would do it!" when that hasn't been borne out by the actions of real naval tacticians.


Back to F=ma. Real-world naval battles don't have the a needed so they need to rely on the m, which makes it significantly less viable (still effective, sure, but less viable). Sci-fi provides the a in spades. That's the difference.

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## Seppl

> The thing is, though--ramming is totally a valid tactic in real-world naval battles. Yet pretty much no-one builds dedicated ramming ships in reality, at least not nowadays? (And back in the days when they *did* build such things, they were designed to survive the collision). So I always find it a little odd when people deploy the argument "If it was such a good tactic everyone would do it!" when that hasn't been borne out by the actions of real naval tacticians.


Because in the real world there is a huge difference in range between normal weapons and ramming. You will never close the gap between two ships. Which was actually one of my points criticizing that scene in Nemesis: Were we not to pretend that the ranges are actually large and we are just given the cinematic version for the benefit of the viewership? But here this cinematic convenience was used as set up to solve the plot! Nemesis sets up both, that the ranges involved in interstellar combat are _actually_ hundreds of meters, and that a few seconds of impulse power can overcome even the strongest shields, whereas dedicated anti-matter torpedoes (which canonically can travel at warp speeds, despite all ranges being in the hundreds of meters according to Nemesis) had virtually no effect.

This just changes everything about how war should be waged in Star Trek. All those scary unstoppable big ships? They just make a better target for ramming a unmanned rocket into it. You do not even need a warhead on that rocket, mass alone is enough. So just build plenty of small torpedoes that are just a warp drive (or even impulse is sufficient, apparently) and plenty of lead, and half of your problems are suddenly gone. Borg cube? Easy target. Whale probe? Easy target. V'Ger? Maybe need to hit it with a full starship because V'Ger is pretty big. But it's for saving the Federation, so they could probably spare one. Voyager could famously replace dozens of warp-capable shuttles even without any supplies, they cannot be that hard to build.

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## DigoDragon

> I don't think anyone who uses this argument thinks "they should build more starships to waste as torpedoes. Complete with life support and windows and furniture". I think the argument is more "they should take large amounts of mass, which they have enormous amounts of and easy access to, and strap an FTL engine to them to use as torpedoes".


After having been to a couple Star Trek conventions, I've been unpleasantly surprised what people think space warfare would be like. ^^

I would say strapping engines to large asteroids would be sufficient, in agreement with your second statement, but on the other hand, such large weapons would be hard to keep hidden. Unless you start cloaking your impactors, the other side will see it coming from a distance on long range sensors and mount a defense. 

I suspect that's why little weapons like antimatter torpedoes are preferable -- harder to spot and harder to shoot down before it hits.

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## factotum

> Unless you start cloaking your impactors, the other side will see it coming from a distance on long range sensors and mount a defense.


Wasn't there a plot point in "The Expanse" where somebody did just that? Coated an asteroid in very non-reflective black material and fired it at Earth, the idea being they'd never spot it against the blackness of space in time to deflect it.

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## KillianHawkeye

The point being missed here is that the Enterprise view screen was destroyed and open to space (saved by a handy emergency force field), so they could only look out with the naked eye. And that Shinzon wanted to get face to face with Picard, so he brought his ship up close. That was the only reason ramming became a viable tactic, doubly so because Picard reasoned that Shinzon wouldn't expect it. It was purely an act of desperation.

Anyway, this thread is about the TV series, not the movies. We should get back to that.

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## tomandtish

> Um, well, that would depend how fast said football was? In order to cause devastation on the sort of scale you're talking about you'd have to have it travelling pretty near lightspeed. I estimate your metal football would have a mass of approximately 50kg, so at 0.25c it would have a kinetic energy of about 140 petajoules, which is the equivalent of a 35 megaton bomb. We've exploded bombs bigger than that right here on Earth and we don't appear to be all dead just yet.


Was supposed to be a .9c in there. Not sure what happened.

----------


## Peelee

> After having been to a couple Star Trek conventions, I've been unpleasantly surprised what people think space warfare would be like. ^^
> 
> I would say strapping engines to large asteroids would be sufficient, in agreement with your second statement, but on the other hand, such large weapons would be hard to keep hidden. Unless you start cloaking your impactors, the other side will see it coming from a distance on long range sensors and mount a defense. 
> 
> I suspect that's why little weapons like antimatter torpedoes are preferable -- harder to spot and harder to shoot down before it hits.


A.) You don't need a particularly huge asteroid. They tend to be solid rock, and "big enough" counts. One the size of the Tantive IV could fit in a Star Destroyer bay (since the ship did, after all), and I don't think anyone would disagree that would tear through another Star Destroyer like tissue paper.
2.) What defense? Once it's moving at/past lightspeed, you're pretty much done. It's like trying to mount a defense against a bullet being fired from a gun. The best defense is "don't be in its way". Heck, they couldn't even stop an asteroid moving 2500miles per hour from crashing into a Star Destroyer. They also couldnt stop Holdo's ship, notably because it was out of range of the Star Destroyers' weapons.

Once it's established that that is a viable tactic, then that drastically changes warfare.

----------


## factotum

> Was supposed to be a .9c in there. Not sure what happened.


Even at 0.9c I don't think it would be enough--you're talking a Lorentz factor of around 2.3, so the effective mass of your ball becomes 115kg. Kinetic energy is up to about 30 times greater than before, so a bit over 1000 megaton equivalent. The asteroid impact that killed the dinosaurs (which still didn't wipe out *all* life on Earth, note) is estimated to have been 100 million megatons of TNT equivalent, so a *lot* more powerful!

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## Dire_Flumph

Agree a football sized object (even metal) going .9c is not likely to doom a planet, but for the interested, Randall Munroe posted an interesting look on his What If? column showing the physics involved if a pitcher managed to throw a baseball at a batter at .9c.  Worth a look

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## DigoDragon

> A.) You don't need a particularly huge asteroid. They tend to be solid rock, and "big enough" counts. One the size of the Tantive IV could fit in a Star Destroyer bay (since the ship did, after all), and I don't think anyone would disagree that would tear through another Star Destroyer like tissue paper.
> 2.) What defense? Once it's moving at/past lightspeed, you're pretty much done. It's like trying to mount a defense against a bullet being fired from a gun. The best defense is "don't be in its way". Heck, they couldn't even stop an asteroid moving 2500miles per hour from crashing into a Star Destroyer. They also couldnt stop Holdo's ship, notably because it was out of range of the Star Destroyers' weapons.
> 
> Once it's established that that is a viable tactic, then that drastically changes warfare.


Sensors in Star Trek are really good; they could spot a Tantive IV-sized object coming at warp speeds. And there are episodes that show you can intercept something moving at warp speed. It's all going to depend on how soon the object is spotted.

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## Peelee

> Sensors in Star Trek are really good; they could spot a Tantive IV-sized object coming at warp speeds. And there are episodes that show you can intercept something moving at warp speed. It's all going to depend on how soon the object is spotted.


Fair, but it likely depends on how far out the warp missile is launched. Presumably sensor range wouldn't matter if it was in visual range. Like how an anti Missile defense system is impressive but if a Missile is launched from a building down the street it doesn't have time to intercept.

It may not be viable in ST though

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## factotum

> Sensors in Star Trek are really good; they could spot a Tantive IV-sized object coming at warp speeds. And there are episodes that show you can intercept something moving at warp speed. It's all going to depend on how soon the object is spotted.


But on the other hand, you have episodes like "The Battle" and the Picard Manoeuvre, which works because the ship's sensors only work at lightspeed and so the ship appears to be in two places at once when it does a short-range warp jump. (And the episode made it clear that this manoeuvre would have worked against the Enterprise-D because they had to come up with a defence against it). Yes, it's not terribly consistent, when is Star Trek ever that?

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## DigoDragon

> Wasn't there a plot point in "The Expanse" where somebody did just that? Coated an asteroid in very non-reflective black material and fired it at Earth, the idea being they'd never spot it against the blackness of space in time to deflect it.


I've only seen the first two season of that show, so I don't know, but the idea does play into what Peelee and I are discussing; if you get your weapon up close before it's spotted, the chances of getting past defenses are much better.





> But on the other hand, you have episodes like "The Battle" and the Picard Manoeuvre, which works because the ship's sensors only work at lightspeed and so the ship appears to be in two places at once when it does a short-range warp jump. (And the episode made it clear that this manoeuvre would have worked against the Enterprise-D because they had to come up with a defence against it). Yes, it's not terribly consistent, when is Star Trek ever that?


Yeah I wasn't fond of that episode for a few reasons. Dunno if there's different kind of sensors, but the best I can square this one is if the Picard Maneuver defeats short-range visual sensors (light speed) while long-range sensors work at FTL speeds over long distances.

Examples of FTL sensors are fairly plentiful. But yeah, consistency does lack in Trek.

----------


## Velaryon

I put the Enterprise's success vs. the Picard Maneuver down to the fact that A) they knew Picard, B) could see how obviously he was lining up to do it, and C) had someone with the reaction speed of Data to calculate where the Stargazer would come out of warp ahead of time.

It was basically the Star Trek version of Punch Out - you see the big move being telegraphed and you prepare the defense you have out of your limited options - only in this case it required superhuman reaction time which they just happened to have.

It's been long enough since I rewatched the episode that I don't remember whether circumstances actually support that reading, but that was my takeaway anyway.

----------


## Seppl

> I put the Enterprise's success vs. the Picard Maneuver down to the fact that A) they knew Picard, B) could see how obviously he was lining up to do it, and C) had someone with the reaction speed of Data to calculate where the Stargazer would come out of warp ahead of time.
> 
> It was basically the Star Trek version of Punch Out - you see the big move being telegraphed and you prepare the defense you have out of your limited options - only in this case it required superhuman reaction time which they just happened to have.
> 
> It's been long enough since I rewatched the episode that I don't remember whether circumstances actually support that reading, but that was my takeaway anyway.


The problem with that episode is not that the Enterprise had success against the maneuver but that the maneuver should not have been any threat in the first place. The explanation for the maneuver is that it relies  on the enemy not having FTL sensors. Which, for some inconceivable reason the Ferengi did not have. And Picard even knew this, despite having never encountered them before. But we can accept that, maybe the Ferengi were going cheap on sensors. The Enterprise-D on the other hand clearly has very advanced FTL sensors, they use them all the time! Then why was the Picard maneuver a threat? They even use another part of their sensor suite as a solution to the problem! What is up with those other sensors? Why do these work?

It is also kind of the same problem as with the ramming in Nemesis: If this maneuver works so well, even against the most advanced ship the Federation has, then why is this not used all the time? This only makes sense if it was a one-off strategy against an outdated Ferengi ship, but this is directly contradicted in the episode itself.

----------


## Peelee

> It is also kind of the same problem as with the ramming in Nemesis: If this maneuver works so well, even against the most advanced ship the Federation has, then why is this not used all the time?


For that, there is a decent explanation. Once the enemy knows about this maneuver, then any time two ships appear to exist simultaneously, then the one which appeared last/suddenly appeared alongside the first is the actual target.

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## Velaryon

> The problem with that episode is not that the Enterprise had success against the maneuver but that the maneuver should not have been any threat in the first place. The explanation for the maneuver is that it relies  on the enemy not having FTL sensors. Which, for some inconceivable reason the Ferengi did not have. And Picard even knew this, despite having never encountered them before. But we can accept that, maybe the Ferengi were going cheap on sensors. The Enterprise-D on the other hand clearly has very advanced FTL sensors, they use them all the time! Then why was the Picard maneuver a threat? They even use another part of their sensor suite as a solution to the problem! What is up with those other sensors? Why do these work?
> 
> It is also kind of the same problem as with the ramming in Nemesis: If this maneuver works so well, even against the most advanced ship the Federation has, then why is this not used all the time? This only makes sense if it was a one-off strategy against an outdated Ferengi ship, but this is directly contradicted in the episode itself.


It still takes rapid reaction speed to figure out where the other ship will drop out of warp to fire, and the average response speed we see in most combat scenes probably wouldn't cut it as a defense. Even without the "they appear to be in two places at once" gimmick, there's still an attack originating from a different point than expected. Given the way shields and such work, this tactic shouldn't end in the destruction of the other ship that often, because if one volley was enough to blow them up then the maneuver wasn't worth doing anyway. But it still should be enough in most scenarios to cause the other ship to miss its first volley if nothing else.

Ultimately I think it falls apart less because of its tactical non-viability than because of the inconsistently-applied nature of Star Trek tech and the fact that battle scenes are driven less by being well thought-out than by a combination of budgetary limitations and a desire to emulate ship-to-ship combat from centuries ago.

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## russdm

Season 3 Episode 10
The Defector
Stardate: 43452.5

[Plot]
Data and Picard are doing a holodeck program of Henry 5, with Data doing the role. Picard comes in later, and talks to Data about the value of Shakespeare's work and also how it relates to learning/knowing about humanity. The show is cut short due to news: A Romulan ship has been picked up heading towards them in a way.

On the bridge, the crew discover the Romulan ship is being followed by a warbird. It fires on the romulan ship, and the after Picard and crew get in touch with the romulan ship, and do a shield thingy, the warbird leaves.

The romulan ship has Setal, a romulan defector. He claims to know about a plan by the romulans to invade or build a base that is important. Setal blows up his own ship, and he knows some good Klingon Curses. Worf is naturally suspicious.

Picard talks with a Black admiral guy, (who shows up again in the wounded) who tells Picard to tread carefully. Setal refuses to answer well, and later meets up with Data. Data talks with  La Forge about guts, then goes to visit Setal.

Setal and Data visit the holodeck, and Setal has an awakening of sorts. Setal re-introduces himself as being Admiral Jarok. Black Admiral lets Picard know some things. Picard makes some kind of arrangement with the Klingons.

Picard confronts Jarok, who finally accepts that Jarok has become a traitor. The Crew fly off to Nelvana 3 and they go cautiously. All they find is a probe, or a source not big enough to be what Jarok was claiming.

G'Kar appears, after shooting the Enterprise. He and Picard exchange words, then 3 Klingon ships appear. With two Warbirds against the Enterprise and 3 Klingon ships, G'Kar decides that he doesn't like going out in a mutual kill, so he stands down. The Enterprise and Klingons leave.

Jarok kills himself with something that he had brought along, but left a note that he hoped would make it to his family.

[Rating]
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on
A Hidden Gem

{Episode Commentary}
This is probably one of the best episodes of the season, and it has great storytelling. The dynamic between Picard and G'Kar, along with the character arc for Admiral Jarok is pretty good. Then there is the subtle pointers to the Klingons showing up.Then, there is the use of the Henry 5 stuff and making it relate to Picard's thinking. That was good too.

There doesn't happen to be anything bad in this episode, beyond the little hint about Jarok having brought suicide pill. It appears in a very brief shot, but doesn't really express what it was supposed to be. So it can be a little random about where the suicide pill that Jarok used came from. But if you know what to look for, you do get to see it.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 6
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 5 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## factotum

Oh, totally agreed. I'm not sure I've actually seen Andreas Katsulas give a *bad* performance in anything, the man was an amazing actor and it's sad we lost him so soon. Put him up against Patrick Stewart and it was like a single episode acting school.

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## DigoDragon

Yeah, this episode was pretty good. It gave a decent sense of the "cold war" between the Federation and the Romulan Empire, and Picard bringing the Klingons for insurance shows just how awesome he is when planning something out.

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## Olffandad

> It still takes rapid reaction speed to figure out where the other ship will drop out of warp to fire, and the average response speed we see in most combat scenes probably wouldn't cut it as a defense. Even without the "they appear to be in two places at once" gimmick, there's still an attack originating from a different point than expected. Given the way shields and such work, this tactic shouldn't end in the destruction of the other ship that often, because if one volley was enough to blow them up then the maneuver wasn't worth doing anyway. But it still should be enough in most scenarios to cause the other ship to miss its first volley if nothing else.
> 
> Ultimately I think it falls apart less because of its tactical non-viability than because of the inconsistently-applied nature of Star Trek tech and the fact that battle scenes are driven less by being well thought-out than by a combination of budgetary limitations and a desire to emulate ship-to-ship combat from centuries ago.


Starfleet or a comparable space empire could probably build a warp-powered ramship with remote control or sufficient AI to hit an enemy starship. The Dominion or the Borg could build a piloted one, they don't care about personnel losses.

Would that be more effective than a photon torpedo bombardment? A less-technological enemy probably can't stop a photon torpedo, anyway. The Enterprise, or a competent ship commander, could probably anticipate a ram attack and try to avoid it.

If you were to fling a flotilla of warp ramships against an enemy planet - say, Romulus - they may have enough space defenses to stop most attacks. Still, if you even got one ramship to strike a planet, it could cause catastrophic damage. The political fallout may be considerable, though - it could invite similar "planet-killer" attacks versus your home worlds, which would discourage most rational space empires.

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## factotum

> The Dominion or the Borg could build a piloted one, they don't care about personnel losses.


Well, the Dominion are, IIRC, the only ones who we've actually seen use ramming tactics--that's how they destroyed the USS Odyssey. Although they didn't do it at warp speed!

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## GloatingSwine

Ramming at warp speed might not even be a thing.

Star Trek warp works by encasing the ship in a subspace bubble, and it isn't actually moving relative to that bubble. If that subspace bubble intersects something else the ship may just drop out of warp and impact the target at whatever realspace speed it was going at before it entered the subspace bubble or possibly be stationary and not impact at all unless the target was moving towards it or it is captured by gravity.

(Notably all combat at warp speeds takes place with photon torpedoes which can sustain their own warp bubble)

Additionally, energies in subspace interact weakly with realspace. We know that from Star Trek VI, where one of the moons of Quo'nos explodes in a way that produces a perceptible subspace shockwave many light years distant, but only causes the ozone layer of Quo'nos itself to be degraded rather than absolutely devastating the planet (as one might expect from the inverse square law).

----------


## factotum

There's at least one episode of "Enterprise" where the NX-01 had to rendezvous with the NX-02 at warp and actually go inside the latter's warp bubble, all without dropping out of warp, plus, as you mention, photon torpedoes have to be able to penetrate a ship's warp bubble or they'd be largely useless.

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## Peelee

> There's at least one episode of "Enterprise" where the NX-01 had to rendezvous with the NX-02 at warp and actually go inside the latter's warp bubble, all without dropping out of warp, plus, as you mention, photon torpedoes have to be able to penetrate a ship's warp bubble or they'd be largely useless.


That effectively equates ramming at warp speed to ramming at sub-warp speed. At least, with other objects at warp.

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## russdm

netflix dropped st tng, so i will need to locate another source of the show to continue. should be a quick thing.

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## Velaryon

Oh wow, that's surprising after it was on there for so many years. And it looks like they got rid of TOS as well. Actually, everything but DS9 for some reason.

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## Lord Vukodlak

> Oh wow, that's surprising after it was on there for so many years. And it looks like they got rid of TOS as well. Actually, everything but DS9 for some reason.


Because paramount plus has next to no content aside from StarTrek. So they arent renewing contracts with rival streaming services.
Once DS9s streaming contract expires it will be gone too.

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## Velaryon

Eww. Guess I'd better press on with my re-watch.

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## russdm

so I have a source for the re-watch, using amazon, until I can buy the DvDs. so I will have the next episode up later this week.

i did want to talk about the status of a certain bunch along with other villains, especially since we finished the Romulan admiral episode.

the klingons and the romulans and once they are introduced, the cardassians, all make for good antagonists for our heroes and provide plenty of single episode plots. so they will get a few more episodes but sadly they are all overshadowed by what is in my opinion, the worst star trek villain

the borg

their introduction made them a mysterious and curious group and the season 3 end episode about the borg works but past it, they become a really crappy thing, zombies

yeah, the borg get turned into a bunch of zombies that wear technology. Thanks to the horrible Zombie Movie Genre, Whose founder or whoever came up with the first truly recognizable Zombie movie should have be shot the day before making it as a written script (Zombie movies basically run on Idiot Plot and Idiot Ball and are a blasphamy), Trek apparently to have their own zombies. So that's what the Borg became.

Zombies.

Good Lord Above, what idiocy is this?

To be honest, I already hate the Borg anyway, but the direction that they went, especially in later seasons and in the first contact movie was the completely wrong direction. It has almost no validity and making them zombies triggered their villain decay. The borg could have worked as a hive mind type bunch, but that was clearly not workable enough, for some clearly {scrubbed} writers.

it is impossible to take any threat seriously to the Federation after the Borg show up in their new form, because the thought that keeps popping up is why has the Borg not showed up again. Why is the Federation still running? Why possible point does have any episode have after whenever the borg show up again?

The borg effectively seriously murder all future drama in the Series. Klingon Civil War? The borg do that thing they do. Threats from the Romulans? Borg show up to say hi. Something relating to whatevers? Borg crash the party.

Having created the borg as such a "kIll them all" threat, the writers had to deliberately act like the borg didn't exist anymore. Only the Dominion presents the same kind of threat to the Federation, and they work better.

The borg can really be seen as a progress of how the TNG series went from being starting to get good to just winding down to hum-drum. the borg have to make almost new further appearances to maintain their threat. When voyager did it's thing with them, it ruined them. well, no, because they were already ruined before Voyager aired.

the borg are ultimately worse than the Ferengi.

----------


## Gnoman

It is very unlikely that the zombie genre had any influence on the Borg. It was more of a comedy genre than a horror one at that point (the spoof Return of The Living Dead series started in 1985, the same year that the original Romero series ground to a screeching halt), and it wasn't until the early 200s that people started to take it seriously again.

The changes to the Borg were pretty incremental and evolutionary. Initially they're purely into technology. Then they decide to assimilate Picard to facilitate their expansion into the Alpha Quadrant by crushing the single most powerful faction. Then assimilation became their entire existence. 

It is very much worth noting that a lot of the ideas that went into the Bork were kicking around the franchise for a long time. Roddenberry's writings during the time between series suggest that most human had merged into a hive mind, with the starship crews being the few who rejected this harmony and were thus able to tolerate the separation. This was a popular notion in utopian sci-fi during the 70s - the classic _Forever War_ and the lesser-known work by the same author _Forever Peace_ both hinge on it. It is much more likely that the Borg are a edgy early-90s revival of that notion.

As to why the Borg don't just come in and ruin the Federation, it is pretty explicit in TNG that the Borg are from _Away_. The first encounter between the Federation and the Borg was over two years away by any Federation propulsion system, and required the intervention of Q to happen in the first place. By the official timeline, the time between this encounter and Wolf 359 is very close to that time span.  The easiest explanation is that there is only one cube involved in the TNG events - it runs into the Enterprise courtesy of Q, figures out where the ship came from, and zips over to the origin to conquer. That's the last major appearance until _First Contact_ many years later. So, from the Borg perspective they had a scout running around, it got blasted, then they sent a second scout. 

Voyager contradicts a lot of this with the introduction of Transwarp, _but_ also creates other situations that can excuse the Borg being unconcerned with sending serious force against such a minor threat.

----------


## DigoDragon

My initial problem with the Borg was why they all looked so... samey. For a group that assimilated so many aliens they all sure look alike. Yeah, it's probably a budget thing. Still bothered me.

But I agree that villain decay hit them really hard. Their initial episode was so good and Best of Both Worlds was great. After that... eh.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

I mean, would we rather have had the Borg been the culmination of those bug creatures that lived in peoples' throats and took over their bodies? Because that was what those were originally supposed to be.

I think cyborg hive-mind with expendable troops is way cooler.

But if you want to talk about the Borg getting destroyed, we have to all watch ST Picard season 2.

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## DigoDragon

> I mean, would we rather have had the Borg been the culmination of those bug creatures that lived in peoples' throats and took over their bodies? Because that was what those were originally supposed to be.


 I thought those bug things was gonna be the plot point for the Picard series, cause my first exposure to it turned out to be a meme with Riker asking Picard, "You remember those bugs that were in people that we destroyed. We told someone about that, right?"

XD

----------


## Caledonian

> To be honest, I already hate the Borg anyway, but the direction that they went, especially in later seasons and in the first contact movie was the completely wrong direction.


The movie "First Contact" wasn't written by thoughtful people carefully considering the concepts involved.

Consider the bit where the Borg Queen (ugh!) is tempting Data by grafting skin onto his arm, then blowing on it.  Data freaks out at the sensation.

...but 'sensation' just the brain processing signals sent from sense organs.  If Data's 'nerves' couldn't send signals from the skin, there'd be nothing to react to; if Data's brain couldn't process those signals, there's be no special reaction.  If the nerves can send the signals and the brain can process them, there'd be nothing new about it - Data could always have experienced that sensation, simply by feeding a signal into his nerves, or into his CPU directly.  Just as a human can be made to experience a sensation without necessarily inducing the physical situation the sensation is meant to signify.

See?  They weren't thinking about that.

The whole point of the Borg is that they have no individuality and are ridiculously redundant and interchangeable.  They have no need for a 'Queen'.  And that isn't how insect queens work!  The 'queens' don't direct the hive, they're just egg factories.  Experiments with bees show that if you block the chemical-producing organs that let the queens send and respond to recognition signals, the worker bees will kill her, and raise another queen that responds appropriately to the hive.  The hive mind isn't dependent on any individual, but is the collective behavior of the entire hive communicating within itself.

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## russdm

getting this going again. just have been busy with school as i am finishing up my bacholer's degree

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## Peelee

> getting this going again. just have been busy with school as i am finishing up my bacholer's degree


Oh neat! What field?

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## Rodin

> The movie "First Contact" wasn't written by thoughtful people carefully considering the concepts involved.
> 
> Consider the bit where the Borg Queen (ugh!) is tempting Data by grafting skin onto his arm, then blowing on it.  Data freaks out at the sensation.
> 
> ...but 'sensation' just the brain processing signals sent from sense organs.  If Data's 'nerves' couldn't send signals from the skin, there'd be nothing to react to; if Data's brain couldn't process those signals, there's be no special reaction.  If the nerves can send the signals and the brain can process them, there'd be nothing new about it - Data could always have experienced that sensation, simply by feeding a signal into his nerves, or into his CPU directly.  Just as a human can be made to experience a sensation without necessarily inducing the physical situation the sensation is meant to signify.
> 
> See?  They weren't thinking about that.
> 
> The whole point of the Borg is that they have no individuality and are ridiculously redundant and interchangeable.  They have no need for a 'Queen'.  And that isn't how insect queens work!  The 'queens' don't direct the hive, they're just egg factories.  Experiments with bees show that if you block the chemical-producing organs that let the queens send and respond to recognition signals, the worker bees will kill her, and raise another queen that responds appropriately to the hive.  The hive mind isn't dependent on any individual, but is the collective behavior of the entire hive communicating within itself.



The Borg Queen only exists because a movie needs a primary villain for the heroes to take down, despite this rarely being the case in Star Trek.  It's part of why I've soured on First Contact as time has gone on, to the point that I actually believe Generations to be the superior movie.  Not by a lot, mind you, but at least the plot in Generations wasn't pants-on-head stupid.

As for good Borg episodes, I thought that "I, Borg" was pretty good.  Everything after that was just kinda...weird.

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## Caledonian

A movie doesn't *need* a primary villain, in the sense of a distinct individual, to be taken down.  The villain in that movie was the Borg.

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## KillianHawkeye

The Borg Queen exists because insect hives upon which they're based also have queens.

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## Kantaki

> The Borg Queen exists because insect hives upon which they're based also have queens.


So her function is to lay tons of robot eggs? :Small Confused:  :Small Tongue: 

The best explanation I've ever stumbled across was that the Queen(s) have some administrative function.
They're basically there to keep the network(s) on track if the collective gets to big to keep everything connected without delays and/or parts get cut off from the whole.

So, the Queen doesn't control the collective, she is the collective.
Now, obviously that function doesn't require a body, but with everything the Borg assimilated they might've picked up the importance of fanservice err... having someone to talk face to face with people when their usual methods of contact don't work.

----------


## Caledonian

> The Borg Queen exists because insect hives upon which they're based also have queens.


Nope.  Insects do not have anything at all like a Borg Queen.  If the Borg Queen were like insect queens, she'd be the perpetual overseer of the biological replication functions and would have no more individuality than any other.

Nor are Borg drones like insect drones, which are the males and do no useful task other than fertilizing the queens on their mating flights.

----------


## hamishspence

> Nope.  Insects do not have anything at all like a Borg Queen.  If the Borg Queen were like insect queens, she'd be the perpetual overseer of the biological replication functions and would have no more individuality than any other.


True - but fictional aliens_ based on_ insect hives tend to invest much more autonomy in one member - a "leader". The _Aliens_ movie had a similar thing, with the Queen being much smarter than the drones and able to direct them.

Star Trek First Contact may be taking inspiration from _that_ sort of thing, rather than _directly_ from the way insects _really_ are.


I think _Aliens_-related material may also be partly responsible for the use of "drone" for soldiers/workers, rather than solely-breeders, in fiction.

It's not unheard of for white collar workers to be called "drones" after all.

----------


## Bohandas

> The whole point of the Borg is that they have no individuality and are ridiculously redundant and interchangeable.  They have no need for a 'Queen'.  And that isn't how insect queens work!  The 'queens' don't direct the hive, they're just egg factories.  Experiments with bees show that if you block the chemical-producing organs that let the queens send and respond to recognition signals, the worker bees will kill her, and raise another queen that responds appropriately to the hive.  The hive mind isn't dependent on any individual, but is the collective behavior of the entire hive communicating within itself.


She's not an insect queen though, she's a witch queen; a necromancer.

The borg queen represents a shift in tone from the borg being zombie apocalypse movie zombies that spread organically as the result of a weird virus, to being fantasy movie zombies under the control of an evil necromancer with aspirations of world domination

----------


## Rodin

> A movie doesn't *need* a primary villain, in the sense of a distinct individual, to be taken down.  The villain in that movie was the Borg.


I know that.  You know that.

_Hollywood_ doesn't appear to.  That's why so many Star Trek movies have distinct individual villains where the show would have a wibbly wobbly space phenomena or a Big Dumb Object.

Sometimes this is good, like with Khan.  Other times, it's very, very bad, like with the borg Queen.  Or CumberKhan.

The insistence on repeatedly doing this drove the movie franchise into the ground.

----------


## Caledonian

The real villain in STII wasn't Khan, but overconfidence and arrogance.  Kirk defeats his, Khan doesn't.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> The Borg Queen exists because insect hives upon which they're based also have queens.





> So her function is to lay tons of robot eggs?





> Nope.  Insects do not have anything at all like a Borg Queen.  If the Borg Queen were like insect queens, she'd be the perpetual overseer of the biological replication functions and would have no more individuality than any other.
> 
> Nor are Borg drones like insect drones, which are the males and do no useful task other than fertilizing the queens on their mating flights.


That's not what I said. I never said the Borg Queen served the same function as an insect queen. I said the Borg are based on hive insects and hive insects have a queen, therefore the Borg have a queen.

Being a hyper intelligent hive mind, the Borg's Queen obviously is more of a queen in a leadership sense than in a motherhood sense. Different situation, different results. And also what hamishpence said about Aliens and other hive mind queens in pop culture.



In the First Contact film, the Borg Queen serves the role of the load-bearing villain whose defeat equals the defeat of all the other enemies in the story. It's dumb, but a very common film trope. It happens because writers often create an enemy whose forces are so overwhelming that there's no other way to defeat them than to "cut off the head" and assume everything else has to stop fighting. I mean, just imagine if Picard and Data, alone on the Enterprise, had to actually kill all the Borgs on the ship in order to safely pick up the crew and go back to their own time? It would never happen.

But of course, this brings us to the part where we have to admit that the TNG-era films (at least after Generations) are just sci-fi dressed action movies rather than well thought out Star Treks.

----------


## DigoDragon

> But of course, this brings us to the part where we have to admit that the TNG-era films (at least after Generations) are just sci-fi dressed action movies rather than well thought out Star Treks.


Yeah, that I can agree with. Undiscovered Country is an action-oriented movie, but it has a really good theme as it's foundation-- an end to the Federation/Klingon cold war. This is a permeant change to the in-universe status quo! That bothers many people on both sides of the border, and you have people like Kirk who wonder if he's become a relic of an era and cannot adapt to the changing times. This is good story telling worthy of a movie treatment. The Next Gen movies lack a big idea that changes the status quo. They feel more like just big budget episodes at best. Not very well thought out episodes either. The action is nice, but in the end things go back to business as usual.

Nemesis tried to change the status quo, but it was a bit of a jumbled mess in my opinion. It gets there, but after tripping over itself. Downstairs.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## russdm

and we are back!!!

last time 

*Spoiler: last time*
Show




> Season 3 Episode 10
> The Defector
> Stardate: 43452.5
> 
> [Plot]
> Data and Picard are doing a holodeck program of Henry 5, with Data doing the role. Picard comes in later, and talks to Data about the value of Shakespeare's work and also how it relates to learning/knowing about humanity. The show is cut short due to news: A Romulan ship has been picked up heading towards them in a way.
> 
> On the bridge, the crew discover the Romulan ship is being followed by a warbird. It fires on the romulan ship, and the after Picard and crew get in touch with the romulan ship, and do a shield thingy, the warbird leaves.
> 
> ...






Season 3 Episode 11
The Hunted
Stardate:  43489.2

[Plot]
the crew have gone to a planet that has recently finished a war and also the planet wants to join the federation. things look nice

it turns out there is an escaped prisoner that picard ends up helping to catch. the first attempt is unsuccessful. then the prisoner is beamed onto the ship. the prisoner is roga danar. he takes some effort to stun.

as it turns out, roga has no life signs. and he happens to be able to withstand some serious stun phaser shots. He has something, that makes troi come say hi. she talks with roga. then data talks with roga. Picard talks with the leader of the planet. picard is not happy

roga is one of several planet citizens that were made into super soldiers. he fools the sensors with having no life signs, and he can break a transporter beam, as shown later. he is also fairly strong, able to go hand to hand to worf some, before he has to drop some barrels on worf. He is  smart and cunning, and etc. Troi is impressed with roga some.

Roga escapes, naturally, and leads the crew on a merry chase. He beats worf by using barrels, then steals a shuttle thing. THen he gathers some merry band of guys and visits the planet.

picard visits the planet, where he basically tells the planet leader guy off, and just goes back to the ship. maybe the planet leader guy will survive

[Rating]
could have been
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.
turns out as
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

{Episode Commentary}
so this episode could have been better. No effort is made to establish anything about Roga and his past life before he became a soldier. So all of his efforts and whining about needing to get his life back and needing more than just to survive just simply fall flat.

without any backstory for Roga beyond him becoming a soldier, I don't know what he lost and so don't know what he would gain. There is nothing about what happened before, and so it seems more like that Roga simply didn't exist before being a soldier. That makes it seem like there was nothing beforehand. So i have no idea what Roga is fighting to restore for himself. Was he a painter? did he write? did he have family? none of that matters.

This makes Roga's plight and that of the other soldiers very un-existing. I don't think it makes feel sympathy for Roga, and as a result, I don't find that I care about anyone in the episode at all. It makes the episode come across as wishy-washy

I kept hoping for something to show why what Roga did mattered, but nothing but some words happened. That made me disappointed. Roga and his motivations and his backstory could have made for some compelling story telling. instead we get some hot air.

This is also an episode that features the prime directive, in one of its non-stupid portrayals. Picard acts well here, versus other prime directive episodes where he be very smug. This episode actually demonstrates a good way of the prime directive rule of not interfering in cultures that have warp drives or the equilvant.

I don't think this episode was as good as it could have been. It had great promise. One thing that could have been was a big battle thing as Roga and soldiers show up on the planet. To be honest, I really don't think that including a big battle with explosions would have worked or had done proper attention or due diligance to Roga and his pals. I think that it would have been simply too much

Picard makes a mention of internal security and oppressors, not sure why. comes out of nowhere.

also, we learn nothing about the war that Roga was in and if it was against bug people or human looking people. Also, Roga doesn't act surprised when he sees Worf, our Klingon.

Then there is some bits about exploring data and how data is. that part was really good.

and lastly, the planet leader guy is james cromwell, who shows up later, and is also zefrem cochrane.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

also, we are one episode away from the next appearance of Q, and some episodes that are hidden gems, including the season's very best episode (Sins of the Father) also Gems (deja Q, yesterday's enterprise, sins of the father, captain's holiday, tin man, hollow pursuits, sarek)
and of course the season's worst episode (Best of Both Worlds)
in my opinion, that is

Trackers)
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 1 (their first episode)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 6
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 6 (james cromwell)
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## Gnoman

The past of the super-soldiers is irrelevant. They're people turned into little more than killing machines for the benefit of their rulers, then locked away forever because those leaders are afraid of what they have created. Their very existence is all you need to know about them.

----------


## DigoDragon

Iif you take out the super soldier plot, what is left for this episode to talk about? ^^
I agree that there really needed to be some backstory to Roga so we feel invested.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> The past of the super-soldiers is irrelevant. They're people turned into little more than killing machines for the benefit of their rulers, then locked away forever because those leaders are afraid of what they have created. Their very existence is all you need to know about them.


I think the episode puts too much focus on Roga Danar for that to really work. Like sure, it *could* be a social sci-fi about the society that created these super soldiers and how it tried to bury them and what that says about a society when it does that (Khan? Never heard of him.), but 3/5 of the episode is about that one guy.

So it kinda needed to show where he was coming from as a person more, and use that as the lens for the social side of the story.

----------


## Peelee

> I think the episode puts too much focus on Roga Danar for that to really work. Like sure, it *could* be a social sci-fi about the society that created these super soldiers and how it tried to bury them and what that says about a society when it does that (Khan? Never heard of him.), but 3/5 of the episode is about that one guy.


Imean, _First Blood_ was a social sci-fi about the society that created these super soldiers and how it tried to bury them and what that says about a society when it does that, but 3/5 of the episode and the entire movie is about that one guy. And that's one of the best movies ever made.

----------


## Velaryon

I think 2/5 is a bit harsh. I'd give this a 3. The message is worthy and it could've been executed better but was still not that badly done. Perhaps the audience could've been made to feel the stakes a bit more if Roga had had a couple lines about having a family he left behind to serve his country and now he can't go back because of what was done to him or something, but I'm not really sure it's necessary. The point is to show that this planet exploited its soldiers and then threw them away instead of taking care of them afterward, which is a pretty transparent allegory for how lots of modern societies have done the same thing to their own veterans. Given that WW2 and especially Vietnam were very much in living memory at the time this came out, they really didn't need to work too hard to establish that context.

It's a very archetypal Roddenberry-era Trek episode, nothing amazing but there have been plenty of worse ones.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Imean, _First Blood_ was a social sci-fi about the society that created these super soldiers and how it tried to bury them and what that says about a society when it does that, but 3/5 of the episode and the entire movie is about that one guy. And that's one of the best movies ever made.


And if John had spend 3/5 of the movie on a spaceship not interacting with the society that had wronged him, and all the wrongs were offscreen background, it probably wouldn't be.

Presentation matters more than factual structure. First Blood shows the things that The Hunted doesn't but needed to (how society sees John Rambo, what turned him into that, and the active wrongs currently being done to him in a way that mirrors his treatment as a POW), and shows things from a perspective The Hunted doesn't and needed to (Much more inside the head of Rambo). That's why it's really good and The Hunted is a mid tier episode of TNG, neither good nor bad enough to be particularly memorable.

----------


## Caledonian

> That's not what I said. I never said the Borg Queen served the same function as an insect queen. I said the Borg are based on hive insects and hive insects have a queen, therefore the Borg have a queen.


Equivocation fallacy.  The "queen" of an insect colony isn't anything like the "queen" of the Borg.  The problem here is that the writers were starting with the popular conception of a hive queen that equates the role to that of a human monarchy.  Which is grossly ignorant.  Insect queens have nothing to do with leadership or direction, and are just as much subjects to the collective as any worker.

It was originally noted that the Borg cubes were so redundant and unspecialized that the Federation would have to destroy most of any one cube before its essential functions would be notably disrupted.  Having a Borg Queen whose death sends the Borg into collapse and disarray is in complete contradiction to both the show itself and the real-world concept it's referring to.

----------


## hamishspence

Maybe someone on the First Contact writing team was a big fan of the_ Ender's Game_ novel. That has the exact same "take out the Queen/Queens and the hive is defeated" concept.

It may also be the prototype for "superintelligent, telepathic queen _commands_ hive" concept - the much older Starship Troopers novel, by contrast, _doesn't_ have the queens as the military commanders - instead it has "brain bugs" that do the commanding, and the queens just do the producing.

Since the Borg Queen_ isn't_ a mother, generally speaking, with new Borg being obtained via assimilation, she may owe a_ bit_ more to "Brain Bugs" than to "Hive Queens".

----------


## Caledonian

In TNG the Borg gestate new bodies; they're not dependent upon assimilation to maintain themselves, merely to gain new abilities and technologies.

----------


## hamishspence

That's one interpretation of "the baby in _Q-Who_." Another is that they even capture and assimilate babies. The episode itself doesn't say for certain.

(the characters _speculate_ that "born in the Collective" is how it works - but the existence of very young assimilatees, such as Seven, and Icheb's younger compatriots, may _cast doubt on_ that).

----------


## Caledonian

They have the technology to breed new Borg, they'd face serious staffing shortages if they didn't breed new Borg, ergo we can reasonably conclude that they do.

They're not zombies or undead.  They're much more terrifying than that.

----------


## hamishspence

It's stated in Voyager that Borg _assimilate only_, and do not_ reproduce_ (the episode "One" - with Seven's reaction to the accidental creation of a fetal Borg)

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Maturation_chamber

And the Borg Queen herself, in that series, was "assimilated as a child" (the Unimatrix Zero two-parter episode).

----------


## KillianHawkeye

I disagree strongly that the details of Roga's life before he became a super-soldier are relevant. The story is allegorical. And despite the focus being on one guy for most of the episode, the story isn't about him. Roga is merely a symbol, representing an entire class of mistreated people. It's about ALL of them. 

We don't need to know what life Roga wants to go back to. It's enough that he cannot do so, that his rights and freedoms were taken away by the very society that he fought to defend. The issue isn't what the soldiers would be doing if they were welcomed back into society, it's the fact that they're being forced to rebel and fight for basic equality.

The crew of the Enterprise intersects with this story just long enough to learn about it, have a few personal growth conversations, give a teachable moral lesson, and then decide to leave the planet and see if they can solve their own problems (with a few sci-fi action scenes thrown in for entertainment value). It's pretty much a classic Star Trek episode.

----------


## DigoDragon

> And the Borg Queen herself, in that series, was "assimilated as a child" (the Unimatrix Zero two-parter episode).


Oh wow, that is... something I never knew. Thought the queen was exclusive to the movie. I definitely missed some Voyager episodes. XD

----------


## Kantaki

> Oh wow, that is... something I never knew. Thought the queen was exclusive to the movie. I definitely missed some Voyager episodes. XD


"Missed" might not be the right word here. :Small Tongue: 
But yeah, she pops up a few times.

----------


## factotum

> "Missed" might not be the right word here.
> But yeah, she pops up a few times.


She's a fairly significant presence in the second season of Star Trek: Picard as well.

----------


## Caledonian

> It's stated in Voyager


Which was notoriously poorly written by people who didn't care about internal or external consistency.  The Borg were already ruined by the time of Voyager.

----------


## DigoDragon

> Which was notoriously poorly written by people who didn't care about internal or external consistency.  The Borg were already ruined by the time of Voyager.


The Borg Queen was killed in First Contact, but she's in Voyager (so I have been just informed). I'm curious if it's the same person and if that means she isn't killed in Voyager just to show up in First Contact?

----------


## factotum

Pretty sure the Queens are not the same people. The one in ST:Picard dies during the series as well, and we're talking "close range shotgun blast to the head" dead in that case.

----------


## hamishspence

It's a different actress (until the last episode, in which it's Alice Krige, the same one as in the movie). However, all the Voyager Borg episodes where the Queen appears, as far as I'm aware, are set _after_ First Contact. First Contact takes place is 2373, and the Queen starts appearing in Voyager in 2375.

Possibly, every time a Queen dies, the Borg just clone a new one from the biological material they have, and transfer stored memories into the clone. Given how a big deal is made of how the Queen was present and overseeing Picard's assimilation, and Picard comments along the lines of_ "That cube was destroyed - how did you survive"_ - the Queen may have been physically present, offscreen, and destroyed, in _The Best of Both Worlds Part II._

----------


## factotum

Given the highly networked nature of the Borg that actually makes a great deal of sense, although it maybe makes even less sense that they choose to embody this long-term Borg memory in a single entity rather than, say, just spread across all the cubes making up the Borg. That would actually be much cooler to me--the "Queen" isn't a single thing you can attack, but a presence almost like a god that won't go away unless you completely annihilate all Borg everywhere.

----------


## Caledonian

Or we could have the Borg as they originally were - which was a collective with no individual personas that was multiply redundant and impossible to destroy without destroying each and every Borg.

There's no NEED to personify the collective as an individual!

----------


## hamishspence

No changes_ need_ to be made to _anything_ in Star Trek - but changes _are_ made, because writers think they make the changed beings more interesting.

Klingons didn't _need_ to become allies to the Federation after TOS - but they_ did_ become allies - and IMO became a bit more interesting in the process.

They didn't_ need_ to gain bumpy foreheads - but they_ got_ them - because it made them more visually distinctive.

And so on.

----------


## Caledonian

And taking the uniform and faceless collective, which is interchangeable and redundant to the nth degree, and incarnating it in an individual - an individual that is essential to the functioning of the Borg - doesn't make the Borg more interesting.

It makes the Borg easier to write for lazy writers.

----------


## russdm

i could have given a higher score yah, but it didn't feel like the episode deserved it. it is on the tail end of mediocrty and could have been slightly better to be just average. it was missing some stuff.

as for the borg stuff

lalalalalalalala, i'm not listening

on the TNG, we will have our first "Terrorist" Episode...

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Or we could have the Borg as they originally were - which was a collective with no individual personas that was multiply redundant and impossible to destroy without destroying each and every Borg.
> 
> There's no NEED to personify the collective as an individual!


That lasted one episode before we were shown the collective personified as an individual (Locutus) because sometimes they find it a valuable tool to have.

----------


## DigoDragon

> There's no NEED to personify the collective as an individual!


Yeah, I'm finding myself in agreement here. The queen worked alright for the movie. The writers could just write it off as the Borg trying something new and when that failed they abandon the idea.

Also, what ever became of
*Spoiler*
Show

Hu and the Borg units that gained individualism? I think the last episode they were in was when Lore took over as their "leader"?

----------


## hamishspence

> Also, what ever became of
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Hu and the Borg units that gained individualism? I think the last episode they were in was when Lore took over as their "leader"?




*Spoiler*
Show

Hugh gets a moderately major role in the first season of_ Picard._

----------


## russdm

The terrorist episode

Season 3 Episode 12
The High Ground
Stardate:  43510.7

[Plot]
the crew have come to a place that is dealing with separatists who have been doing bombings. the crew beam down armed. worf is with crusher and data. naturally, a bombing happens and crusher has to help. she makes worf do stuff and refuses to leave, claiming she is doing triage and being a doctor {actually from what I remember from the scene, she treats like 3 people at most}. picard talks to her and she has to be difficult.

so no one tells off the doctor and she doesn't even think to beam up with a patient, which can be done. of course she gets captured.

the crew can't find her because the separatists (terrorists) have a special transportation system. crusher has a tiff or argument with the terrorist leader but not really. in reality, she is slightly attracted to him

riker works with the security forces to find out where the doctor is {can't they just leave her behind? it's not like she does anything and what about the other medical people on the ship that could have beamed down}

crusher flirts with the terrorist leader who sends his buddy to blow up the ship and when that fails, the leader decides to kidnap picard for reasons {which are really crappy}

crusher has learned that the special travel method is fatal later on, which is not a problem with the terrorists. picard chews out crusher but not really. the terrorist leader decides to kill picard

riker comes to save the day and the terrorist leader dies

some kid puts down his weapon

[Rating]
1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)

{Episode Commentary}
By Q, this is an awful episode.

it was made in the time of the "Troubles", you know, the irish problems, which affects the episode by trying to make the terrorist leader be sympathic and all with the pro Irish America of the time. Which I am not sure actually worked then really.

Given the time that is now, and everything that has happened with Terrorism, I don't think that what was tried then works anymore at all. I don't know how I am supposed to like a guy that blows up kids, threatens to kill picard, and generally is just a jerk. Then there is Crusher being all supportive after a tiny bit of chatting.

crusher ends up holding the idiot ball, since why didn't picard beam down more medical people? why didn't crusher remember them? Why did she not follow procedure and leave? why didn't she just have picard beam down some medical supplies rather than sending worf off to get them?

Why? Because without Crusher being royally stupid, we wouldn't have a plot. Picard even decides not to beam the doctor up because she might get angry. Really.

I don't think much of the terrorist leader, and even trying to ignore what has happened in real life in the meantime since the episode, I still really don't think that it works trying to make us like or feel for the separatist/terrorist leader. Crusher falls under his spell way too fast, and he doesn't make any good arguments of any kind.

I would say that Gene or the writers staff failed to take some very important lessons from Star Wars A New Hope. Stuff like making your Rebel Characters (since the Rebellion is basically a bunch of terrorists really) be likable and actually heroes. We see Tarkin ordering a peaceful planet be blown up. We see Tarkin order that girl to be executed. We see Tarkin being totally cool with that girl getting tortured or something. And then there is how Tarkin wants to rule through fear.

The Empire is clearly the Bad Guys here and that effort is shown. The Rebels might not exactly be the good guys really, but the story tries to make the battle lines clear about what each side really sees as the most important. Freedom for the Rebels; Tyranny for the Empire.

As for this Star Trek Episode, it doesn't say anything about anything, especially new. then, it fails to make any kind of statement that matters. You could lose the episode and missed nothing at all. That is just poor already. Then the subject of terrorism these days is a very touching subject.

The next episode is the return of Q

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 1 (their first episode)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 6
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 6 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## DigoDragon

I had to go to Memory Alpha because I really don't remember this episode. ...and after looking it up, I kind of still don't. >.>

----------


## Velaryon

This was a pretty bland, forgettable episode. I didn't realize the bit about the cultural context when it was released (I was very young at the time and tend to misremember that particular event as happening earlier than it actually did). I don't remember the part about Crusher being kinda flirty with the baddie... is she actually attracted or is she trying to play him for sympathy?

----------


## Gnoman

This one always felt really weird to me because the rebel leader is so willing to court open war with the Federation. He kidnaps Starfleet officers on purpose, and tries to blow up the _Enterprise_ as publicity stunt. He's so confident that these open acts of war would result in a big fat nothing from the Federation.

----------


## factotum

> He's so confident that these open acts of war would result in a big fat nothing from the Federation.


To be fair, he really wouldn't have any reason to believe otherwise. The Federation are unequivocally the good guys in this time period--it'll be a little while yet before potential threats would force them into a more explicitly militaristic and reactive stance. Heck, in DS9 the traitor whose name I forget just can't believe that Sisko, a Starfleet captain, would deliberately poison Maquis planets just to capture him, so this attitude is still widespread years later.

----------


## Gnoman

Sure, they're the good guys, but that doesn't mean they won't respond to the destruction of their flagship with all hands (the intended result). Even ignoring the Federation currently being at war (which isn't established until the next season), the _Enterprise_ has already been in or narrowly avoided military confrontations at this point.

"We will not interfere in your internal matter" is a logical stance. Betting everything on "we won't respond even if attacked" doesn't. Especially when you rant about Federation hypocrisy. There's plenty of ways they could have done the plot a lot better - what they eventually did with Ensign Ro would be a good stance.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Yeah, this is definitely one of the bottom of the barrel episodes. An easy skip on re-watches. Poor story and poorly done.

----------


## Spacewolf

Didn't the leader just want the federation to pay attention to the planet? I don't think he really cared about his faction being destroyed because once the federation is involved it'll force the other faction to the negotiating table. I suspect his line of reasoning was Federation Flagship destroyed all eyes to the planet-> Federation kills all his terrorist faction ->Federation Orders both sides to negotiating table and will force some sort of fair settlement which his own side can't get due to being the far weaker faction at the time.

But yea a boring episode

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 13
deja q
Stardate:  43539.1

[Plot]
the crew have showed up to help a planet deal with a problem with their moon. that goes on before q drops in. q doesn't have powers though. the crew have to deal with him while trying to deal with the meal.

an enemy of q shows up to cause trouble. data puts himself in harm's way for q. q leaves with a shuttle and another q shows 
a talk then q gives data a laugh 

[Rating]
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on

{Episode Commentary}
so this is one of the best q episodes. we learn about the q people and q gives data which is nice. then, we have some really good scenes of q with members of the crew.

we get the immortal line of q saying that picard is q's only friend which makes it look like picard is floored by that

oh and the moon got fixed 

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 1 (their first episode)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 6
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 6 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## DigoDragon

Q episodes do tend to be pretty fun. I liked this one, serving up some really memorable scenes such as Q and Guinan.

----------


## Velaryon

My favorite part of this episode was Guinan, specifically the part where she stabbed Q with a fork.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

This one was great in that it's where Q starts turning from a random omnipotent antagonist into an annoying omnipotent semi-helpful mischief maker.

----------


## Velaryon

> This one was great in that it's where Q starts turning from a random omnipotent antagonist into an annoying omnipotent semi-helpful mischief maker.


I think the seeds of that turn are planted in Q's season 2 appearance where he introduces him to the Borg. Yes, his stated purpose at that time was taking humanity (and Picard in particular) down a peg and humbling them, but at the same time he gave them advance warning of an enemy that was already getting closer, and without Q's assistance they would have been completely blindsided. This episode is arguably Picard returning the favor, and definitely gives me the impression that Q has a special fondness for the Enterprise crew even if he may pretend otherwise (and definitely enjoys screwing with them).

----------


## russdm

so the guy who played shawn spencer's dad, henry spencer, in Pysch played Q2. That would be corbin benson. He was famous for some things already and was also on an episode of Seinfeld too.

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 14
A matter of perspective 
Stardate:  43610.4

[Plot]
picard is doing some painting when Data shows up. picard asks for data's opinion on his painting; data is honest which makes picard not happy. (guess that it is a little bit bad)

the crew beam up riker from a station which then explodes. an alien guy shows up to arrest riker for murder. the holodeck is used and works perfectly, for showing what happened according to LaForge, riker, the wife of a scientist, the scientist.

the scientist made some device that does something with radiation and krieger waves. it affects the ship and gets solved. 

the scientist wanted to get money by selling the device and decided to kill riker. the scientist failed and blew the station up 

riker is cleared of the murder charges 

[Rating]
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

{Episode Commentary}
to be honest, this is a lousy episode

the scientist is given the motive of wanting to sell the device for money, and needs to kill riker because of that. That motive really just doesn't really fly.

The alien guy, the detective guy, just shows up and charges riker with Murder. Except that alien guy never presents any evidence beyond some comments from wife. Apparently, that is all that works here?

of course, once the holodeck replays are done, riker turns out to be innocent of killing the scientist. Which was based some lousy reasoning anyway. the alien guy should have showed up and stated that riker needed to answer some questions, and it needed to be determined if a crime had occurred. That would have worked out a lot better

then, there is the idea that riker would murder someone. Which is not really workable if you had watched any previous episodes so far. Riker has not been portrayed as the murdering type.

then we get the first part with picard doing the painting and asking data about that. I think using that and making an episode about that part, about how Data views Art and etc, given being an android, would have made for a much better story. it would have allowed for some interesting storytelling

As for itself, the murder mystery doesn't work well enough to be a B-plot, much less an A-plot. I don't know why, but when watching about it, I found that I just didn't care at all. Riker has already been established as too much of a goody two-shoes to murder someone and so i just can't ever buy that. With that problem, the murder story fails outright, and feels like a waste of time.

everything about the Krieger waves(?) just feels semi-interesting at best, but it never establishes exactly how important that is. It is supposed to be some kind of new energy source, but only seems to mess around with Radiation some. So it never makes that clear.

Then, as before, you have the motive of selling the device, for an attempt to kill riker. But why? it feels like that motive just got dumped in. It doesn't have enough, oomph, or, well, feeling to motive the scientist.

Then there is the question of consent or whatever with Riker and the scientist's wife and if anything was going there. Sadly, neither the scientist or the wife were made to be interesting enough for me to want to listen to them; I just didn't have an interest in hearing the story

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 1 (their first episode)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 6
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 7 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Yeah, I agree. The thing that never made sense to me was how did they make an exact working replica of the scientist's device on the holodeck without realizing that the machine had been completed? How do they even have the detailed specs for it to begin with when he's trying to hide the fact that he finished it? And why did they leave the simulation running 24/7 even when nobody was using it?

----------


## DigoDragon

I'm just amazed the holodeck worked as intended. No lethal glitches or mad AIs created. XD

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 15
Yesterday's Enterprise 
Stardate:  43625.2

[Plot]
guinan sees Worf sitting alone and has him try prune juice, which Worf likes. they talk about Worf's love life or lack of one. Worf laughs. he gets called to the bridge.

a wormhole appears and a ship comes through. everything changes, including the uniforms. Worf has been replaced with Tasha Yar

the ship is the Enterprise C. it was damaged by romulan warbirds. it had responded to a distress call from a Klingon colony. the federation is at war with the Klingons and the federation is losing badly

the captain of the Enterprise C is Rachel Garrett. she goes to sickbay. another person is richard castillo who Tasha takes a shine to.

guinan, who knows that everything is wrong, complains to Picard. he is not happy about it but listens to her because he trusts her. with the ship being repaired, picard has to make a decision.

picard decides to share with garrett and explains some about guinan. he lets garrett and her crew decide. picard has a meeting of his staff where it is discussed about how the sacrifice of the enterprise C in defense of Klingons would earn the federation "honor" brownie points

riker doesn't like the idea 

tasha, who guinan let share what happened to tasha with her, goes with the enterprise C

some Klingon ships attack the two ships at points. the enterprise D is destroyed while the enterprise C goes in the wormhole

everything is back to normal with Worf being there 

guinan, in ten forward, asks laforge about tasha. [laforge is wearing the wrong uniform still]

[Rating]
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.

{Episode Commentary}
so 

this is a pretty good episode. it brings Tasha yar back, has Worf start drinking Prune Juice, and it introduces us to how important Klingons view honor. It also helps to push how the federation and the Klingons became buddies. Mostly because of the Romulans, really.

The most important element is how much more we learn about Guinan and that picard trusts her judgement and that guinan is able to spot timeline changes. this makes for some interesting later story ideas.

The bit about the klingons and federation at war, is actually pretty interesting, and could have developed further on, but it goes through a little bit only. That is not a disappointment though, since the events of the episode are pretty good and solid.

the flirtation between Tasha and Castillo works pretty well, and Garrett is a pretty standard cut Starfleet captain. The only useless character in the episode is doctor Crusher, who doesn't do really anything beyond treat Garrett, while we see no sign of other crew aboard the Enterprise C being injured and needing treatment.

The point about Klingons and Honor will have pretty much further major effects through the rest of the franchise. Further into TNG and DS9 and Voyager. It is probably the most foundational brick that just laid here.

The franchise will not be the same afterward.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
The Universe/Franchise shook and was changed: 1
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 1 (their first episode)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 2
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 6
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 7 ()
Rank of Miles: 
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies ; honor matters a great deal;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Agree. This is a pretty big, foundational step for the Klingon culture as shown in the TNG era. It's interesting to see how they try to backfill some of the historical events that led to the current peace between the Klingon Empire and the Federation, between this episode and later in Star Trek VI.

----------


## Gnoman

This episode is one of the earliest Guinan-focused ones that I can think of, and she gives a good showing. Might even be the one that focuses on her the most - she's much more the driver of the plot than anybody else, because she's the one who's realizing something is wrong.

----------


## Velaryon

Yesterday's Enterprise is hands down my favorite TNG episode. I'm not entirely sure why, but it does do a lot of things right. In addition to the influence it has on later TNG episodes, it also gives Tasha a bit of redemption for the senseless death she had in season 1 (and plants the seeds for another Denise Crosby return later on down the line). It even somehow makes me long to learn more about the adventures of the Enterprise-C, despite the fact that none of the crew members from that ship are all that interesting.

----------


## DigoDragon

It is a pretty good episode, giving us a taste of multiverse theory in action. The franchise is gonna really embrace that as time goes on. MY only quibble is it is at odds with _Undiscovered Country_.

----------


## MarkVIIIMarc

> Season 3 Episode 15
> Yesterday's Enterprise 
> Stardate:  43625.2
> 
> [Plot]
> guinan sees Worf sitting alone and has him try prune juice, which Worf likes. they talk about Worf's love life or lack of one. Worf laughs. he gets called to the bridge.
> 
> a wormhole appears and a ship comes through. everything changes, including the uniforms. Worf has been replaced with Tasha Yar
> 
> ...


This might be my favorite episode. Good plot. Good story arc development. Good action. The design changes to the warshio version of Enterprise were done well also.

Your line, "The franchise will not be the same afterward." is orobably true.

Man, especially seeing it "live" with no clue what an episode was going to be about, this had my jaw hung open.

----------


## Gnoman

> It is a pretty good episode, giving us a taste of multiverse theory in action. The franchise is gonna really embrace that as time goes on. MY only quibble is it is at odds with _Undiscovered Country_.


It really isn't. _Undiscovered Country_ ended the long Federation-Klingon Cold War, but that doesn't automatically mean everything was sunshine and daisies between the two powers from then on. The film was set in 2293, while _Yesterday's Enterprise_ was 2366, with the war starting sometime after 2344 (the date of the Battle Of Narenda III). That's minimum 55 years. Plenty of time for relations to deteriorate, especially if you assume that the battle somehow caused the war - there's a line on Memory Alpha that the disappearance of 1701-C was interpreted by the Klingons as a cowardly retreat, though I'm not certain what that comes from.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Well, we know that the Klingons view any retreat as cowardly. Better to die in glorious battle than to flee like a cowardly targ!

Seeing the Enterprise-C disappear mid battle, after taking some significant damage no less, would have to be seen as retreat by any Klingons who survived the Romulan attack.

And it's basically stated outright in the episode that fighting a hopeless battle to save a few Klingons was how the Federation earned the Empire's respect that day.

----------


## DigoDragon

My issue isn't that there is a war. I can totally buy the Klingons starting a fight with the Federation over being cowards. But wasn't it explained in Undiscovered Country that the explosion of Praxis was going to cause the Klingon empire a near collapse with the loss of the moon's resources, so they needed peace with the Federation to get help? I guess my question is, if 55 years is enough to recover from that and be able to run a two-front war?

----------


## Gnoman

The explosion of Praxis meant that they couldn't afford the then-current Cold War with the Federation, because they needed the resources they were dumping into warships to avert economic collapse. It wasn't "whoa, we don't have Praxis anymore so we're broke!", it was "whoa, Praxis blowing up broke a lot of things, so we need to cut military spending to fix it."

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Seems like long enough to me.

Also, fun fact: The Romulan attack at Narendra 3 from this episode takes place two years before the Romulan attack at Khitomer in which Worf's family dies. Seems like the Romulans were attacking the Klingons a lot during this period, so they were forced to rebuild their military anyway.

----------


## hamishspence

> The explosion of Praxis meant that they couldn't afford the then-current Cold War with the Federation, because they needed the resources they were dumping into warships to avert economic collapse. It wasn't "whoa, we don't have Praxis anymore so we're broke!", it was "whoa, Praxis blowing up broke a lot of things, so we need to cut military spending to fix it."


To be fair, Praxis is _also_ described as "their key energy production facility".

----------


## Wintermoot

> My issue isn't that there is a war. I can totally buy the Klingons starting a fight with the Federation over being cowards. But wasn't it explained in Undiscovered Country that the explosion of Praxis was going to cause the Klingon empire a near collapse with the loss of the moon's resources, so they needed peace with the Federation to get help? I guess my question is, if 55 years is enough to recover from that and be able to run a two-front war?


There is a real life example of a European country waging a second war 20 years after a first crippling loss in a war that devastated their economy and saddled them with sanctions that were supposed to keep it from happening again and didn't. So 55 years for the Klingons to do so doesn't seem unrealistic to me.

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 16
 the offspring 
Stardate: 43657.0

[Plot]
Data makes an android. stuff ensues 

[Rating]
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

{Episode Commentary}
so 
this episode is not terrible but it doesn't stand out as being really good either. it actually falls into what happens to be considered as being base average for episodes reaching into the next season and on. it feels like how a classic TNG episode should be, with a good amount of heart

to be honest, nothing grabbed my attention and kept it but I didn't feel insulted or a need to turn off the episode. an average episode all round 

from the events of this episode, i would say that the quest to make androids like Data and Lore seems to be a rather major thing later on

i think that the episode was a bit of a mess in that it follows yesterdays enterprise and that it has the episode sins of the father following it. which makes it have less of an impact 

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
The Universe/Franchise shook and was changed: 1
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 1 (their first episode)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 2
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 6
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 7 ()
Rank of Miles: 
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies ; honor matters a great deal;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## Velaryon

The thing that bothers me about this episode is how little impact it has on the Trek universe going forward. I think it gets referenced one time ever in later seasons of TNG, and considering how often they make a big deal about how difficult it is to create more androids like Data and Lore, you'd think the fact Data _did_ create one would be treated with a little more importance.

Also, I know Data is incapable of feeling love for Lal, but it also feels jarring that he never tries to improve on her design or even figure out why she died and how to prevent that from happening again if he were to create another offspring.

----------


## Gnoman

I think it is the opposite. He _did_ care for Lal as a father, and the death of his daughter (caused by his own failure) prevented him from trying again for fundamentally emotional reasons.

----------


## DigoDragon

> I think it is the opposite. He _did_ care for Lal as a father, and the death of his daughter (caused by his own failure) prevented him from trying again for fundamentally emotional reasons.


I agree with Gnoman.

The way Data cares does operate differently than the way we do, but the results do parallel our emotions. It's like in the season 2 episode Peak Performance where Data loses at a game and then questions his infallible programming. His actions paralleled self-doubt and sulking in that episode.

----------


## tomandtish

> I think the seeds of that turn are planted in Q's season 2 appearance where he introduces him to the Borg. Yes, his stated purpose at that time was taking humanity (and Picard in particular) down a peg and humbling them, but at the same time he gave them advance warning of an enemy that was already getting closer, and without Q's assistance they would have been completely blindsided. This episode is arguably Picard returning the favor, and definitely gives me the impression that Q has a special fondness for the Enterprise crew even if he may pretend otherwise (and definitely enjoys screwing with them).


The other side of that coin (which I remember being discussed a LOT at the time and a few years after) was that it also alerted the Borg to the presence of Humans. And since they jacked into the computers they know whereto find them. So it gave the Federation a heads up, but it also did the same to the Borg.

Of course, this was all undone by Voyager and Seven's parents.

----------


## Spacewolf

> The other side of that coin (which I remember being discussed a LOT at the time and a few years after) was that it also alerted the Borg to the presence of Humans. And since they jacked into the computers they know whereto find them. So it gave the Federation a heads up, but it also did the same to the Borg.
> 
> Of course, this was all undone by Voyager and Seven's parents.


Didn't they say in the episode that the energy signatures matched some they had found on federation worlds where entire cities had been stolen? I got the impression the Borg where well aware of the federation.

----------


## hamishspence

> The other side of that coin (which I remember being discussed a LOT at the time and a few years after) was that it also alerted the Borg to the presence of Humans. And since they jacked into the computers they know whereto find them. So it gave the Federation a heads up, but it also did the same to the Borg.
> 
> Of course, this was all undone by Voyager and Seven's parents.





> Didn't they say in the episode that the energy signatures matched some they had found on federation worlds where entire cities had been stolen? I got the impression the Borg where well aware of the federation.


Wasn't the first "foreshadowing of the Borg" in the Season One final episode _The Neutral Zone,_ _before_ the Season Two episode_ Q, Who?_

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki...Zone_(episode)

"This is the first episode in which the Borg are mentioned, although at this point, they are only an unknown (and therefore unnamed) entity which has been destroying starbases."

----------


## Spacewolf

That might have been what I'm thinking about, I think they reference it in the episode as well by with the energy signature line.

----------


## hamishspence

> That might have been what I'm thinking about, I think they reference it in the episode as well by with the energy signature line.


From the Q Who? episode:

*Spoiler*
Show

RIKER: Why?
Q: Why? Why, to give you a taste of your future, a preview of things to come. Con permiso, Capitan. The hall is rented, the orchestra engaged. It's now time to see if you can dance.
(Q vanishes) 
PICARD: Guinan, your people have been in this part of the galaxy. 
GUINAN: Yes.
RIKER: What can you tell us?
GUINAN: Only that if I were you, I'd start back now.
...
_Captain's log, stardate 42761.9. Despite Guinan's warning, I feel compelled to investigate this unexplored sector of the galaxy before heading back._

WORF: Captain, the sixth planet in the system is Class M.
DATA: There is a system of roads on this planet, which indicates a highly industrialised civilisation. But where there should be cities there are only great rips in the surface.
WORF: It is as though some great force just scooped all the machine elements off the face of the planet.
DATA: It is identical to what happened to the outposts along the Neutral Zone.
WORF: Captain, we are being probed.
RIKER: What is the source of the probe?
WORF: A ship. It is on an intercept course.
PICARD: On screen. Magnify.

----------


## Spacewolf

> From the Q Who? episode:
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> RIKER: Why?
> Q: Why? Why, to give you a taste of your future, a preview of things to come. Con permiso, Capitan. The hall is rented, the orchestra engaged. It's now time to see if you can dance.
> (Q vanishes) 
> PICARD: Guinan, your people have been in this part of the galaxy. 
> ...


Yea that's what I was thinking of. Been quite abit since I've seen it.

----------


## hamishspence

In Star Trek Enterprise (the Season 2 episode Regeneration) 

*Spoiler*
Show

some survivors from the Borg Queen's force in First Contact, send out a message before being destroyed - and _that's_ implied to be what set the Borg off and heading in the direction of the Federation.

----------


## factotum

> In Star Trek Enterprise (the Season 2 episode Regeneration) 
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> some survivors from the Borg Queen's force in First Contact, send out a message before being destroyed - and _that's_ implied to be what set the Borg off and heading in the direction of the Federation.


Given we know the Borg can travel 7000 light years in a couple of years from Q Who (it takes about that long for the Borg cube to get to Federation space from where Q dumps the Enterprise, and it's implied to be the same cube), why would it take so long for a signal to reach them?

----------


## Seppl

> Given we know the Borg can travel 7000 light years in a couple of years from Q Who (it takes about that long for the Borg cube to get to Federation space from where Q dumps the Enterprise, and it's implied to be the same cube), why would it take so long for a signal to reach them?


We do see other subspace messages taking a long time whenever the plot requires it. I think the actual canon explanation is the requirement for a network of subspace repeaters if you want fast messages. Thus, within Federation space, communication is usually real-time, whereas our heroes at the frontiers of known space are often out of luck and have to make their own decisions without advice from Starfleet Command. Also, technology seems to have improved over time, the Borg communicator, improvised from rudimentary pre-Federation tech, probably was not as good as the best we have seen on the show.

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 17
Sins of the Father
Stardate: 43685.2

[Plot]
The enterprise welcomes Kurn, a Klingon officer to return the exchange that was done by commander Riker. Kurn shakes things up a little bit, but spends his time being patronizing to Worf.

the crew complain some

Worf confronts Kurn, who confesses that he is Worf's younger brother. Kurn got himself assigned to the enterprise to meet Worf. This is due to the fact the Mogh, the father of Worf and Kurn, has been accused of aiding the attack on Khitomar/Khitomer.

Picard takes the ship to Kronos/Qo'nos, where the council does it thing. Duras, an enemy of Worf, makes the accusations. Picard sets about gathering evidence.

K'mpec/K'mpc, head of the empire, tells Worf to go away and make no effort. Worf doesn't get why. Kurn meets with what ends up being Duras, who tries to kill him. Kurn survives, naturally.

Picard takes on the role of Worf's second, and compiles the evidence. He finds Worf's wetnurse, and brings to K'mpec/K'mpc, after Picard fights off some thugs of Duras.

The arrival of Worf's wetnurse shakes up K'mpec/K'mpc. The entire thing which Mogh is accused of was done by the Father of Duras. That makes things more clear but still troublesome.

Worf decides to accept discommendation to get things going. He does backhand Duras though.

K'mpec/K'mpc says that Worf's heart is Klingon.

[Rating]
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on

{Episode Commentary}
this is the first episode to introduce to us the structure of the Klingon Empire. We see the leader with the cape of bling, and the council chambers. We get to meet one of our major players to shape future events, Duras. And Worf takes the first steps to directly have a hand in shaping the future of the Klingon Empire.

this episode will go on to affect the entire rest of the franchise. The Borg are frankly more like a hurricane or tornado and really don't count for anything. Plus, beating the Borg requires cheating every time. It makes them terrible characters.

The Klingons, however, can be fought in combat, and can also be challenged using intelligence. The same can be said of the Romulans and the Cardassians. These three, Klingon and Romluan and Cardassian, are the major players that will go on to influence the Franchise. They will appear to cause trouble in later seasons and also in Deep Space Nine and Voyager.  A future ancestor of Duras will show up in Enterprise.

The franchise is not the same after this episode. You can't get around Worf taking Discommendation and feature any Klingons, because it will have to be addressed. Then, we learn about the shady dealings that happen too, for an Empire, as Picard says, holds honor so dear.

the leader of the Empire is played by none than the Klingon general from Movie 5. He shows up here, looking fairly close to the same too. which can lead to some speculation that the two Klingons might be related in some way.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on 

Trackers)
The Universe/Franchise shook and was changed: 2
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 1 (their first episode)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 2
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 7
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 8 (the Klingon General from Star Trek 5)
Rank of Miles: 
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies ; honor matters a great deal;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## Ionathus

I remember the ending of this episode very clearly. They just let the cameras roll on the somber scene that follows Worf's discommendation. It packed a lot of oomph and really showed how far Worf was willing to go to do what he thought was necessary.

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 18
Allegiance
Stardate: 

[Plot]
picard gets replaced by an imposter 

[Rating]
1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)

{Episode Commentary}
there is nothing interesting about this episode. which is really sad because the plot of having picard get replaced by an imposter could have been well done. but we don't get that

i think that cutting to picard, the real one, makes it more a question of if the crew figures it out. also, it tells the audience which means that we don't take what happens seriously. the impostor reveal should have only happened when picard escaped because it would have left thinking that picard was doing the stuff.

then, i don't think that the other part works with picard in the room. the whole thing manages to be boring and not interesting. i can't figure out why. maybe because all of them get to working together real fast.

the two plots just don't work together even though you need both to do the episode.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on 

Trackers)
The Universe/Franchise shook and was changed: 2
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 1 (their first episode)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 2
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 7
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 8 (the Klingon General from Star Trek 5)
Rank of Miles: 
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies ; honor matters a great deal;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Given we know the Borg can travel 7000 light years in a couple of years from Q Who (it takes about that long for the Borg cube to get to Federation space from where Q dumps the Enterprise, and it's implied to be the same cube), why would it take so long for a signal to reach them?


They had to find someone to assimilate a quantum slipstream drive from.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Season 3 Episode 18
> Allegiance


Was this the episode with the aliens who didn't understand why abducting people was wrong until Captain Picard trapped them in a force field?

----------


## Velaryon

Yep, that's the one. Definitely a forgettable episode, though I'd give it a 2 instead of a 1. It's no "Code of Honor."

----------


## Rodin

I always quite liked this one personally.  The ending is a bit cheesy along with the fake Picard stuff, but everything with Picard in the cell is pretty good.  We get to see why Picard is captain of the Federation flagship - even out of his element he instinctively takes charge and brings together a disparate group of people who would have found up fighting if not for him.

----------


## russdm

well, it takes two plots and staples it together. one plot is the imposter and one is real picard in a cell. the imposter story is not interesting enough to work, especially knowing that picard is in a cell somewhere. so you always know that it is not really picard, which takes out all of the drama of what happened during the imposter's time.

the picard in a cell plot had workable material, but fails because it cuts away for us to follow the imposter. that doesn't allow for that much time to develop things.

the story should have been only about the imposter with the crew trying to figure out if something is going on along with the audience following along with them.

then, the picard in a cell could have been expanded to explore more of the dynamics and see the effects, maybe more of the testing and what the aliens were trying to do by sticking picard in a cell. Maybe discussions about what Picard and the other cell types were doing?

Instead we get the garbage that we get. We learn bits and pieces about Picard from his cell thing, and everything about Picard on the ship is basically the imposter and so can't be seen as legititmately what Picard would do.

But if the reveal that Picard was replaced had only occurred at the end, then we would have spent time trying to determine if Picard was acting normal or in some interesting way or who knows, but we would have trying to make sense of it along with the crew. given how it goes, the mystery is more about how the crew could be so stupid to not realize that Picard is not acting like himself. We know that there is an imposter and so the fact that the crew can't figure that out, makes them really stupid looking. Including Deanna, who should be able to sense that Picard has been replaced entirely.

then, there is the plot in the cell, which could have been interesting more so, by exploring the different styles of leadership or something or something else.

Really, putting the two plots together simply doesn't work as intended and brings down the episode in my opinion from being just a poor episode to a bad one, because there are so many things that could have been done to improve it in general and keep the sense of mystery or whatever the writers were going for.

----------


## Gnoman

> But if the reveal that Picard was replaced had only occurred at the end, then we would have spent time trying to determine if Picard was acting normal or in some interesting way or who knows, but we would have trying to make sense of it along with the crew. given how it goes, the mystery is more about how the crew could be so stupid to not realize that Picard is not acting like himself. We know that there is an imposter and so the fact that the crew can't figure that out, makes them really stupid looking. Including Deanna, who should be able to sense that Picard has been replaced entirely.


Classic TOS episodes like _The Enterprise Incident_ (Kirk is operating under sealed orders, and thus very irrational) and _What Are Little Girls Made Of?_ (Kirk is an replaced by an android duplicate) show how this sort of episode can be done well. There's a couple of TNG episodes that do it a lot better as well, but I can't remember what season they're in.

----------


## DigoDragon

> Was this the episode with the aliens who didn't understand why abducting people was wrong until Captain Picard trapped them in a force field?


I was about to Google this episode because literally that was the only scene I remember from it. XD

So yeah, easily forgettable.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Honestly, I think this episode was made just so Patrick Stewart could sing a song and act goofy for half an episode. They throw an episode like this in for the serious characters every once in a while so they can break out of their boring mold.

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 19
Captain's Holiday
Stardate: 43745.

[Plot]
Picard needs a vacation according to everybody else, but he doesn't think so. Then, he finds out that Troi's mom will be visiting. A vacation sounds like a good idea now.

Riker conspires to help out the captain by getting him to acquire a local piece of art that has a special meaning. Picard agrees, Not knowing although Riker being Riker (A ladies man), he ought to realized something. Eh

When arriving on planet, Picard gets a kiss from some woman, who then claims mistaken identity. There are some aliens who are watching, that were looking for him earlier in the episode.

Picard goes to read his book at the pool, and gets visits thanks to the local piece of art that Riker told him to get. Picard hides it away, after learning what it means. He gets a visit from a Ferengi. who was in the lobby earlier

The Ferengi tells Picard to avoid having to do anything with a woman, and quietly does a little threatening. Picard won't take no crap. The Ferengi slinks off

The woman that kissed Picard makes a reappearance. She talks to him some, before leaving after the Ferengi comes back. 

Picard goes to his room to find some aliens, the ones from earlier, there. They tell him some things.

Like that they are looking for something called the Tox Uthat, and that Picard will find it. The woman ends up being Vash, who is looking for it too. And the Ferengi, who Vash cut in on the deal.

Picard and Vash go find the Tox Uthat, which is capable of according to techno-babble in stopping nuclear fusion in a star. Basically a superweapon. Picard and Vash do some digging.

There were a couple of scenes that happen after the aliens show up in Picard's room and when Picard and Vash go to dig. basically covers that the Ferengi is Sovak, and that Vash cut him in originally. Also, that Vash worked for an archeaologist named Dr. Samuels

After an unsuccessful dig, and Sovak, who accosted Picard and Vash getting angry, Picard says that the Tox Uthat is not there. Picard and Vash leave while Sovak keeps digging.

Which is true, in that Vash already found. The aliens show up again, being Vorgons, who tried to steal the item earlier. Picard blows it up, after some events like Vash getting shot.

The Vorgons leave, and Vash decides to go to another place to dig. Which Picard warns her about.

Picard, who gets back to the ship, is asked about his vacation by Riker. He mumbles and Riker says that Picard had fun.

4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.

{Episode Commentary}
This is probably one of the better episodes of Season 3, and we get to see how much Archeology  interests the Captain. Also, we meet Vash for the first time.

Given the time travel equipment available to the Vorgons, It is pretty clear that they are going to try again. So there may be an alternate timeline in which Picard doesn't destroy the Tox Uthat and that they are able to obtain. How that would play out, is probably anybody's guess.

Vash does develop a fast friendship with Picard and it appears, by the standards of the time, to be a budding relationship. 

Of course, mention must be made of Picard in swimsuit and being shirtless. That became a meme, possibly.

I think this episode really improves matters after leaving last episode. it is clearly of better quality.

Also to note is that Sovak is played the actor that played Rom in Deep Space 9. Probably one of the things that got him the role for Rom.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on 

Trackers)
The Universe/Franchise shook and was changed: 2
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 1 (their first episode)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 2
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 7
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 9 (Rom from Deep Space 9)
Rank of Miles: 
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies ; honor matters a great deal;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Yeah, a lot of the Ferengi characters in DS9 started off as minor Ferengis in a TNG episode or two, even Quark actor Armin Shimerman.

As for this episode, it's a fun one. Vash is exactly the kind of character that's fun but still puts Picard out of his comfort zone. They make a good couple, I think. Too bad she has so few appearances.

I remember when this episode aired and people were saying that it put a little bit of Captain Kirk into Picard's normally reserved persona. So he's out here showing his chest hair, punching an alien, and kissing the girl, but he does it all in his own way. And even though he's super reluctant to go on this vacation, in the end he's able to loosen up and have an adventure. Some good character development here.

Also, was this the first time they go to Risa?

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 20
Tin Man
Stardate: 43779.3

[Plot]
the crew are doing some mission when they get a message to do something else. the crew are to escort a Federation person, a mission specialist, to communicate with an alien. the romulans are involved as well

the mission specialist is Tam elbrun, someone that Troi worked with. Tam was involved in some past problem event. Tam is strongly telepathic and so hears everything

Tam gets along with Data really well 

the alien is an alien ship that is orbiting a star. the romulans show up and try to speak to the alien. it fails so they attack it. Tam, who has been in contact with the alien, warns it. the alien destroys a romulan ship. another ship vows revenge

picard learns about Tam and has to let Tam go on the alien ship. Tam communicates with the alien ship, which is gomtuu. gomtuu and Tam leave, Data returns to the ship, and the ship goes on to the next mission

[Rating]
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.

{Episode Commentary}
so this is a first contact episode, and it is very well done. There is also some exploration of Data and how he gets perceived by some, and some about differences. The interactions between Tam and Data are really good. The interactions with Gomtuu, the alien is also good.

This episode was apparently based on story that got modified. As a result, it happens to be rather well done, and the story goes along quite nicely. I would say that it is a pretty good episode.

The bit with the romulans is a bit meh, but there needed to be some kind of opponent for the crew to have, and the romulans fit the bill. It is nice to know the name of their ship, which is said here. the D'Deridex, I believe.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on 

Trackers)
The Universe/Franchise shook and was changed: 2
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 1 (their first episode)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 2
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 7
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 9 (Rom from Deep Space 9)
Rank of Miles: 
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies ; honor matters a great deal;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 2
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Yes, this episode is good, but after having watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I can never stop thinking about Tam being the same guy who played the evil Mayor.

----------


## Velaryon

This episode didn't make a strong impression on me either way. It's always nice when Trek springs for an alien life form that's non-humanoid for a change, though.

----------


## DigoDragon

> It's always nice when Trek springs for an alien life form that's non-humanoid for a change, though.


I also enjoy a good alien encounter with something actually alien rather than humanoid. Though thanks to Mass Effect I can't help but see some similarities between this alien 'ship' and the Reapers. Heh. :P

----------


## KillianHawkeye

So I've been rewatching the Next Generation first season, and I just discovered that Star Trek predicted the recent trend of social deception games decades in advance!

In the episode, the Enterprise hosts two hostile alien factions who, while supposedly on their way to a peace conference, spend the entire time aboard the ship sneaking around trying to kill each other. Meanwhile, an energy-based lifeform infects members of the crew, sabotaging the ship and killing at least one person. AND the situation doesn't get resolved until the impostor is found out and sent into space.

The name of the episode?

*Spoiler*
Show

*Lonely Among Us*

COINCIDENCE??????  :Small Big Grin:  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## MarkVIIIMarc

> So I've been rewatching the Next Generation first season, and I just discovered that Star Trek predicted the recent trend of social deception games decades in advance!
> 
> In the episode, the Enterprise hosts two hostile alien factions who, while supposedly on their way to a peace conference, spend the entire time aboard the ship sneaking around trying to kill each other. Meanwhile, an energy-based lifeform infects members of the crew, sabotaging the ship and killing at least one person. AND the situation doesn't get resolved until the impostor is found out and sent into space.
> 
> The name of the episode?
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> ...


I like that! We may have an Among Us themed pumpkin on our porch right now.

----------


## Palanan

> Originally Posted by *russdm*
> _so this is a first contact episode, and it is very well done._


Interesting to see the relatively lukewarm reactions to this one.  For me, its always been one of my top-five TNG episodes.  Theres a poignancy to it which TNG often attempted, but rarely achieved so well.

And I watched it when it first aired, so didnt have some of the later associations with unrelated properties.




> Originally Posted by *KillianHawkeye*
> _the recent trend of social deception games._


First Id heard of this, since its been many years since Ive paid attention to video games.

Im surprised to hear that Werewolf and Mafia are considered 80s and 90s games, since theyre still played in some of my recent gaming groups, along with a Firefly-themed variant.

----------


## russdm

Season 3 Episode 21
Hollow Pursuits
Stardate: 43807.4

[Plot]
So we meet Barclay who likes to use the holodeck with his crewmembers doing things. when not in the holodeck, Barclay is shy and timid. something happens with a canister. the crew work to get Barclay to be part.

[Rating]
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.
but has 
1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)
in it 

{Episode Commentary}
this episode is basically being about the crew to get someone to work along side them but 

the parts in the holodeck and what Barclay does with his crewmembers would never fly today given what he does with his female crewmembers and the use of their likeness without having their approval. the holodeck parts age very badly and are really unacceptable. it would have been more fine at the time when the episode originally aired

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on 

Trackers)
The Universe/Franchise shook and was changed: 2
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 1 (their first episode)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 2
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 7
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 9 (Rom from Deep Space 9)
Rank of Miles: 
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies ; honor matters a great deal;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 2
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1 
*Money Matters: 1 
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

----------


## Gnoman

Even when this episode was new, what Barclay was doing is Not Okay. The show explores this more in the next season.

----------


## DigoDragon

Starfleet HR is apparently very forgiving. I would have expected Barkley to be discharged.

----------


## Seppl

> Starfleet HR is apparently very forgiving. I would have expected Barkley to be discharged.


Starfleet and the Federation as a whole do not believe in that kind of punishment. Especially in that era, when they even had a dedicated counselor on board. They saw that Barcley needed help, he got it, and it worked! What if they had discharged him? Starfleet would have lost a very talented engineer, and Barcley would have ended up who knows where, still having the same problems, and probably using the same coping mechanisms. I think it is a good thing that helping, not punishing, is always the first option they try.

----------


## tomandtish

> Starfleet HR is apparently very forgiving. I would have expected Barkley to be discharged.





> Starfleet and the Federation as a whole do not believe in that kind of punishment. Especially in that era, when they even had a dedicated counselor on board. They saw that Barcley needed help, he got it, and it worked! What if they had discharged him? Starfleet would have lost a very talented engineer, and Barcley would have ended up who knows where, still having the same problems, and probably using the same coping mechanisms. I think it is a good thing that helping, not punishing, is always the first option they try.


You're both correct. it's very forgiving AND it seem to be policy. 

Let's face it. Plenty of the crew have had things happen to them that would realistically result in months of downtime and counseling. Heck, Picard himself has been through numerous things when any one of them should have resulted in months of therapy (physical and emotional). But he is down for only a month after Best of Both Worlds 2, since the episode Brothers takes place about 33 days later. In that time he was completely healed up physically and apparently able to pass what SHOULD be mandatory psych exams.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

In fact, it's shown in the episode that it's an unacceptable thing to do. Riker in particular is upset about it, and everyone else is a bit shocked by it IIRC. It's only allowed to continue so that Counselor Troi can explore his psyche and determine how much therapy he needs.



Regarding the review, it's happened before but I'm still not sure how the multiple rating scores work. Russdm give this episode a 3 (average), but also a 1 (likely because of the problematic activities of Lt. Barclay). What does that mean?

I understand objecting to certain content if it's being approved or glorified, but sci-fi sometimes (or often, in the case of Star Trek) addresses problem behaviors in people with the idea of exploring why some things are wrong and what can be done about them. Why would including such things in an episode be bad? It's clearly not being presented in a good light or as being okay.  :Small Confused:

----------


## Peelee

> Regarding the review, it's happened before but I'm still not sure how the multiple rating scores work. Russdm give this episode a 3 (average), but also a 1 (likely because of the problematic activities of Lt. Barclay). What does that mean?


Yeah, I've never really understood having multiple ratings (and with the reasoning being copy/pasted form issues to boot).

----------


## DigoDragon

> In fact, it's shown in the episode that it's an unacceptable thing to do. Riker in particular is upset about it, and everyone else is a bit shocked by it IIRC. It's only allowed to continue so that Counselor Troi can explore his psyche and determine how much therapy he needs.


"We need this. For research."  :Small Tongue: 

But Barkley does get better, yeah. It's just the dangerous AIs that get locked up (if Lower Decks is followed).

----------


## Peelee

> "We need this. For research." 
> 
> But Barkley does get better, yeah. It's just the dangerous AIs that get locked up (if Lower Decks is followed).


Broccoli also shows to have gotten better in Voyager.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Broccoli also shows to have gotten better in Voyager.


Fun Fact: Dwight Schultz actually has more appearances on Voyager than he does on Next Generation.

----------


## russdm

> Regarding the review, it's happened before but I'm still not sure how the multiple rating scores work. Russdm give this episode a 3 (average), but also a 1 (likely because of the problematic activities of Lt. Barclay). What does that mean?


it means that I consider it an episode that has an average score. It does include the material, but it is not enough to drop the episode down in score in my opinion. plus some episodes have both an A plot and an B plot, with some combining of the two and some instances of them being separate. in those cases/occasions, the different plots can vary in quality in my opinion

feel free to question my judgement, i take no offense

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> it means that I consider it an episode that has an average score. It does include the material, but it is not enough to drop the episode down in score in my opinion. plus some episodes have both an A plot and an B plot, with some combining of the two and some instances of them being separate. in those cases/occasions, the different plots can vary in quality in my opinion
> 
> feel free to question my judgement, i take no offense


The trouble is that you shouldn't be giving two values to an overall rating - that's the whole point of a rating.

On the occasions you need to do something simillar, I would suggest showing that you are judging the plots (or whatever else) seperately, for example:




> Main Plot: 3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing.
> Side Plot: 1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)


Or even:




> Main Plot: 3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing.
> Side Plot: 1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)
> Overall: 3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing.


Note that the three ratings can then be independent - the episode as a whole can be OK (for example, saved by good acting), while the individual plots can still be rated poor.

----------


## russdm

will take things into account. also will get back to this. finishing up my class so i have been busy with that

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> will take things into account. also will get back to this. finishing up my class so i have been busy with that


Finals this early in the year? Of just end of term?

----------


## DigoDragon

> Finals this early in the year? Of just end of term?


Brace yourselves, winter break is coming. :3

----------

