# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 > Rules Q&A Dire Animal Companion Skill Points, Saves, and Customization

## Kuro Dmon

What should be simple math is bothering me way more than it should be, now that I sit down to look at it. I'm hoping I can get some help figuring out the stats for an upgraded Dire Wolf Companion.

First hurdle I'm looking at is skills. I was under the assumption all creatures with an Int Score got at minimum 1 skill point per HD (ignoring some folks that thought 3+HD like with PCs), even with an Int Penalty. But looking at the Dire Wolf;

Hide: +0 (+2 Racial Bonus, +2 Dex, -4 Size)
Listen: +7 (+2 Racial Bonus, +2 from Alertness, +1 Wis, +2 Ranks)
Move Silently: +4 (+2 Racial Bonus, +2 Dex)
Spot: +7 (+2 Racial Bonus, +2 from Alertness, +1 Wis, +2 Ranks)
Survival: +2 (+1 Wis, +1 Rank)
Is that math correct? Because even if it is, there's a rank missing somewhere, then...

Then, there's the bonus HD from other sources (I'm taking the Dire Wolf as a Wild Cohort and am at adjusted character level 3 for it with all modifiers in place, and even have permission to apply the Warbeast Template). That's 2 additional HD total (which increases attacks, saves, skills, and gets closer to an additional feat), as well as the more straightforward benefits of those 2 addons... I've seen it read in other forums that having 8 HD would also allow an additional stat increase of my choice, but I don't think that's actually RAW, and possibly not RAI if that's meant only for actual Level Ups?

And then, do Dire Animal Companions have Good Will Saves, since Dire Animals have Good Will Saves? I was kinda under the assumption the Animal Companion ability was first written for player characters starting at 1st level, and thus limited to normal animals; but I can equally see the Dire options getting the exact same bonuses RAW, even if it means the beat-stick's wisdom defenses start to falter as we go on...

Lastly, I'm contemplating swapping out feats to make this Wolf a bit more effective (again, I have permission and already ran it by my Dm). Can't qualify for Wraith Strike and not going deep into cheese, so 1 hard hit is probably all I can get. Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Bite), and Combat Reflexes are what I have slotted in (I'm under the assumption that since Track is a bonus feat, I can't train my wolfie to have something else there instead). Any other ideas that might work well or to build towards?

----------


## Crake

> I've seen it read in other forums that having 8 HD would also allow an additional stat increase of my choice, but I don't think that's actually RAW, and possibly not RAI if that's meant only for actual Level Ups?


In 3.5, all HD function the same, whether they be from class levels, or racial HD. Unlike 5e, all creatures use the same rules in this version. So reaching 8HD grants the same benefit as gaining 8 levels. Same goes for the x4 skill points for your first level/HD.

----------


## Kuro Dmon

> In 3.5, all HD function the same, whether they be from class levels, or racial HD. Unlike 5e, all creatures use the same rules in this version. So reaching 8HD grants the same benefit as gaining 8 levels. Same goes for the x4 skill points for your first level/HD.


If that's true, then isn't the base Dire Wolf missing even more Skill Points? By my count, was just 1 at first, but with 3x minimum at 1st level/hd, that's another 3 points that don't seem accounted for...

And then, that's also a question of how the benefits of an animal companion function: the feature at least *says* that a companion's HD grants it more bab, saves, skills, and feats. Is there somewhere that notes it getting stat boosts other than those explicitly outlined by the ability?

----------


## Thurbane

Animal/Dire Animal stat blocks are notoriously wonky when you try to reverse engineer them to see their sill ranks. Some of them are just plain full of errors.

----------


## Biggus

> I was under the assumption all creatures with an Int Score got at minimum 1 skill point per HD (ignoring some folks that thought 3+HD like with PCs), even with an Int Penalty.


Where are you getting the idea that PCs get a minimum of 3 skill points per level? Skill points per level say x+Int modifier, not Int bonus. The only restriction I'm aware of is that you get at least 1 skill point per level or HD regardless of your intelligence score.




> Animal/Dire Animal stat blocks are notoriously wonky when you try to reverse engineer them to see their sill ranks. Some of them are just plain full of errors.


This is definitely true, I've tried with lots of them and frequently found myself scratching my head.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> I was under the assumption all creatures with an Int Score got at minimum 1 skill point per HD (ignoring some folks that thought 3+HD like with PCs), even with an Int Penalty.





> Where are you getting the idea that PCs get a minimum of 3 skill points per level? Skill points per level say x+Int modifier, not Int bonus. The only restriction I'm aware of is that you get at least 1 skill point per level or HD regardless of your intelligence score.


You misread him. He's not saying a minimum of 3 per level, he's saying a total minimum of 3 + HD. It means a minimum of 4 at level 1, and 1 per level thereafter.

He mistakenly thought only PCs get the extra points at level 1 (which would make the minimum skill points equal to total HD).

----------


## ShurikVch

> *All example characters are known to be wrong* Thread 2, Page 29. 3.X


That includes stat blocks for monsters
For example, Dire Wolf also have too little hp: should be 48 - full hp at 1st HD. Yes, none of published monsters follows that rule - but it's still a rule (and no - not just for PC!)

----------


## Kuro Dmon

> That includes stat blocks for monsters
> For example, Dire Wolf also have too little hp: should be 48 - full hp at 1st HD. Yes, none of published monsters follows that rule - but it's still a rule (and no - not just for PC!)





> You misread him. He's not saying a minimum of 3 per level, he's saying a total minimum of 3 + HD. It means a minimum of 4 at level 1, and 1 per level thereafter.
> 
> He mistakenly thought only PCs get the extra points at level 1 (which would make the minimum skill points equal to total HD).





> Animal/Dire Animal stat blocks are notoriously wonky when you try to reverse engineer them to see their sill ranks. Some of them are just plain full of errors.


So, I absolutely get that the stat blocks might be just straight up messed up in the fine details, and it absolutely works in my favor if I can strengthen my animal companion a bit further. But it still leaves a few questions I'm unsure about**:

Where does it say that NonPCs also get stat increases every 4 HD? Particularly for a Companion or Mount, I assumed they'd get the bonuses the ability in question specifically gives them.

And where does it say that NonPCs get 3x Skill Points at base level (which is indeed what I was fuzzy on earlier) and max first level Hitdice? Just to have a reference for the future, let alone for this project.

My Dm was a little worried my Companion would outshine my partner's Familiar, so bringing up additional adjustments without having some text to clarify might not be my best move...

----------


## loky1109

> Where does it say that NonPCs also get stat increases every 4 HD? Particularly for a Companion or Mount, I assumed they'd get the bonuses the ability in question specifically gives them.


Monster Manual, p. 289



> *Ability Score Improvement:* Whenever a monster reaches a number of Hit Dice divisible by 4, it improves one ability score by 1 point. For example, a lammasu of 7 Hit Dice increased to 14 Hit Dice gains an ability score improvement at 8 HD and another one at 12 HD. Monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they already reached with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.





> And where does it say that NonPCs get 3x Skill Points at base level?


Monster Manual, p. 301



> Table 54: Skill Points by Monster Type


I don't copy all table here. Look it yourself.

----------


## Lilapop

> And where does it say that NonPCs get [...] max first level Hitdice?


DMG, page 110, "elite and average characters". Animal companions are (paraphrasing) "normal creatures straight from the MM", and don't have maxed HP on level 1 according to that paragraph.

Another complication with some dire companions (and the wolf is one of them IIRC) is that they have all good saves contrary to what their creature type says, but the companion rules have a sentence that could be interpreted as them being reset to the type standard. Not sure if this also is the case with wild cohort.

----------


## ShurikVch

> DMG, page 110, "elite and average characters". Animal companions are (paraphrasing) "normal creatures straight from the MM", and don't have maxed HP on level 1 according to that paragraph.


Ability Score Arrays:



> Any monster unique enough to be improved could easily be considered elite.


The Druids Animal Companion:



> A druids animal companion is different from a normal animal of its kind in many ways. A druids animal companion is superior to a normal animal of its kind and has special powers, as described below.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> My Dm was a little worried my Companion would outshine my partner's Familiar, so bringing up additional adjustments without having some text to clarify might not be my best move...


An animal companion is _supposed_ to outshine a familiar in combat. 

A familiar generally isn't strong enough or tough enough to do any real fighting, but it can help in small ways once in awhile. The familiar's main use is it's out-of-combat utility.

Animal companions are more like a secondary character for your PC to control, similar to a cohort (but oftentimes actually stronger). Their abilities are mostly combat focused, with possibly some extra mobility options depending on your choice of animal.

Basically, familiars and animal companions aren't meant to fill the same functions, so it's useless to compare them.

----------

