# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 >  Is Psychic Chirurgery Ardent-like?

## martixy

Lemme explain.  :Small Big Grin: 

As we all know the Ardent doesn't have an explicit "Maximum power level known" clause, it's all about if he can manifest said power.

Psychic Chirurgery similarly says "You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest."

A 9th level psion (max 5th level) with overchannel is absolutely able to spend 11 pp and therefore manifest Disintegrate (6th level). Therefore Psychic Chirurgery should be able to impart upon said psion any 6th level power.

And between overchannel, torc of power preservation and quori shards, Chirurgery should be capable of granting a 5th level psion every single power in existence, up to and incl 9th level.

_Or am I missing something?_

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## Rebel7284

I think there is a bit of circular reasoning there.

There are a bunch of ways to augment powers by spending more Power Points than allowed by you class, but just because you CAN spend extra power points doesn't also mean that you can manifest powers of a specific level, that is determined by your power progression.  

Technically Heighten Power from 3.0 Psionics might allow you to do it, but psionics had such a massive overhaul between 3.0 and 3.5 that using un-updated 3.0 content is discouraged.

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## martixy

> There are a bunch of ways to augment powers by spending more Power Points than allowed by you class, but just because you CAN spend extra power points doesn't also mean that you can manifest powers of a specific level, that is determined by your power progression.


_That_ is determined by your maximum power progression in the case of Psion, Psychic warrior, wilder.
And NOT in the case of Ardent. Hence the phrasing of the question  :Small Big Grin: 
(Which admittedly seems a bit too obscure for those not steeped in psionics arcana.)

Anyway, the wording between ardent and chirurgery is awfully similar and I'm calling that chirurgery is subject to the same shenanigans ardent is.

Aka, the answer is clearly *yes*.

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## Darg

> _That_ is determined by your maximum power progression in the case of Psion, Psychic warrior, wilder.
> And NOT in the case of Ardent. Hence the phrasing of the question 
> (Which admittedly seems a bit too obscure for those not steeped in psionics arcana.)
> 
> Anyway, the wording between ardent and chirurgery is awfully similar and I'm calling that chirurgery is subject to the same shenanigans ardent is.
> 
> Aka, the answer is clearly *yes*.





> At each additional level, an ardent learns one new power from her available mantles. She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it, however. For example, an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that costs 5 power points or less to manifest; she *cannot learn* a power from a mantle that costs more than 5 power points to manifest *until she attains a level* capable of manifesting a power with that cost.


Ardent can't learn powers their level doesn't allow. Other psionic classes have a maximum power level known column in their class table that tells you the earliest you can learn powers of a specific level. Manifester level has nothing to do with it.

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