# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 >  Don't need to be Codzilla anymore, what to do with Persistent Spell?

## Mars Ultor

I'm playing a human 10th-level Cleric and originally the the other PCs in the campaign were two Rogues, one Bard, and a Druid. The Druid changed characters and is now a Barbarian, and a dead Rogue was replaced with a Ranger. I was using Persistent Spell all the time and was the party's only frontline fighter, but now that role is filled and with the Druid gone spells are more important.

Most of the time I used Persistent Spell on Righteous Might or Divine Power, but going forward I'm not going to be involved in melee combat nearly as much. I used four feats for that role and I don't want to ignore them, what are good spells to use with Persistent Spell now? I had thought about Owl's Wisdom, but that seems like a lot of feats and Turn Undeads for a +2 Wisdom bonus.


Cleric of Waukeen, Travel and Wealth domains, feats are: Extra Turning, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic, and Travel Devotion. Ability scores are pretty average, but Wisdom is 20.

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## noob

There is some spells that are really neat to persist defensively like starmantle (which can be cast by any good aligned cleric of a high enough level spontaneously) if you start throwing around good battlefield control, buffs and debuffs having some defensive buffs will be useful as opponents will like you less.

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## Biggus

There are lots of good team buffs which can be persisted, for example:

Elation (BoED) 
Mass Lesser Vigor (SpC)
Recitation (SpC)
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SpC)

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## Quertus

> Mass Lesser Vigor (SpC)


That is one of the most popular options at my tables, and matches the Spell slots are now more precious sentiment. Seconding this.

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## St Fan

> Originally Posted by Biggus
> 
> 
> Mass Lesser Vigor (SpC)
> 
> 
> That is one of the most popular options at my tables, and matches the Spell slots are now more precious sentiment. Seconding this.


This spell is no doubt in the category "fit within a strict RAW reading of Persistent Spell but certainly not within what it was actually intended to do", which was no doubt to restrict persisted spells to those affecting only the caster.

But there I entirely blame the game makers and not the players: Persistent Spell should REALLY have been written better to make it clear what it could do and couldn't do.

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## Biggus

> This spell is no doubt in the category "fit within a strict RAW reading of Persistent Spell but certainly not within what it was actually intended to do", which was no doubt to restrict persisted spells to those affecting only the caster.
> 
> But there I entirely blame the game makers and not the players: Persistent Spell should REALLY have been written better to make it clear what it could do and couldn't do.


Where are you getting the idea from that Persistent Spell was intended to only affect spells which affect the caster only? If that was the intent, why wouldn't they have just made it personal only?

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## Anthrowhale

> This spell is no doubt in the category "fit within a strict RAW reading of Persistent Spell but certainly not within what it was actually intended to do", which was no doubt to restrict persisted spells to those affecting only the caster.
> 
> But there I entirely blame the game makers and not the players: Persistent Spell should REALLY have been written better to make it clear what it could do and couldn't do.


If I recall correctly, this was actually addressed in the FAQ and deemed a reasonable use of a 9th level spell slot.

The difficulty with persistent spell is most often related to metamagic cost reduction rather than the effect.

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## Biggus

> If I recall correctly, this was actually addressed in the FAQ and deemed a reasonable use of a 9th level spell slot.


You have a good memory. 3.5 Main FAQ, p.92.




> The difficulty with persistent spell is most often related to metamagic cost reduction rather than the effect.


Agreed.

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## GoodbyeSoberDay

In addition to the main ones Biggus listed, other party buffs include Interfaith Blessing (CC) and Blessing of the Righteous (PHBII). Eventually, MLV can also upgrade to Vigorous Circle (SpC). Don't forget longer-lasting buffs that you don't have to persist, like Greater Magic Weapon, Heroes' Feast, and Greater/Superior Resistance.

One thing that is theoretically available to a back-line cleric but perhaps not this particular cleric is access to defensive and utility spells via the Divine Magician ACF (CM). Examples include See Invisibility, Friendly Fire (EoE), and Loresong (Dragon 335).

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## Crake

> If I recall correctly, this was actually addressed in the FAQ and deemed a reasonable use of a 9th level spell slot.
> 
> The difficulty with persistent spell is most often related to metamagic cost reduction rather than the effect.


A houserule a DM of mine used was that you have to be able to cast the unmitigated version of the spell to be able to DMM it, so for a persisted 3rd level spell, youd need to already be able to cast 9th level spells

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## Anthrowhale

> A houserule a DM of mine used was that you have to be able to cast the unmitigated version of the spell to be able to DMM it, so for a persisted 3rd level spell, youd need to already be able to cast 9th level spells


That certainly helps. 

A high level Archivist/Spelldancer would plausibly still be excessive.  People make fun of spells which add numbers, but when you can persist many of them the accumulation can leave the game unbalanced.

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## Darg

> A houserule a DM of mine used was that you have to be able to cast the unmitigated version of the spell to be able to DMM it, so for a persisted 3rd level spell, youd need to already be able to cast 9th level spells


That's what we do. DMM applies the feat, not just the effect of the feat, unlike sudden metamagic. With it being a feat you still have to contend with the minimum caster level even though the spell slot doesn't change. It's cast as a higher level spell by the metamagic rules. This is specifically mentioned in the sudden metamagic feats for contrast. We also apply this to metamagic rods.

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