# Forum > Comics > Webcomics >  Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning threads

## mystic1110

Kill Six Billion Demons is a webcomic written and illustrated by Tom Parkinson-Morgan, also known as Abbadon.

The comic can be found here 

There are two tumblrs associated with the comic:

Artwork
Words of God

The story can be summarized as "God Is Dead. Far beyond Earth, The Multiverse is in chaos as criminals rule and callous kings maintain a fragile peace. One day, a mysterious and bloody figure appears to a barista named Allison Wanda Ruth, and bestows her with an Ancient Artifact known as the Key of Kings. In the process, Allison finds herself suddenly transported to the final resting place of the gods in the exact center of the multiverse, the red city of Throne. Allison must now travel through Throne and the 777,777 universes of creation to save her kidnapped boyfriend and stop the plans of the stone angels, masked demons and mad god-kings that want her Key for themselves."

Previous Conquests: 

KILL SIX BILLION DEMONS: Beginnings are false and I am a consummate liar.

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## rooster707

Eugh. Gotta say, Im not liking that CamelCase. Oh well. /sub

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## guttering flame

Kill6BillionDemons - kind of unreadable, no? Alsotheendingismissing inthereplies titles.

Is King David building Allison's boyfriend to be her arch-enemy? Could be interesting. From what her friends said he sounds like bad news and I think a druggist.If I were in her shoes I forget about him.

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## 5a Violista

> From what her friends said he sounds like bad news and I think a druggist.If I were in her shoes I forget about him.


Except he didn't drug her and he seemed to respect her boundaries and explicitly asked and waited for consent.

Sure, her friends don't like him and she probably doesn't even like him all that much (she was more concerned about losing her virginity than who it was with) but "the main character doesn't love him" and "the main character's friends don't like him" don't automatically make Zaid a bad guy.

He would make a pretty cool arch-enemy, though. He also makes an alright damsel-in-distress, so I can't decide which I would rather have him be.

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## Aquillion

> Except he didn't drug her and he seemed to respect her boundaries and explicitly asked and waited for consent.
> 
> Sure, her friends don't like him and she probably doesn't even like him all that much (she was more concerned about losing her virginity than who it was with) but "the main character doesn't love him" and "the main character's friends don't like him" don't automatically make Zaid a bad guy.
> 
> He would make a pretty cool arch-enemy, though. He also makes an alright damsel-in-distress, so I can't decide which I would rather have him be.


It's worth pointing out that, by my recollection, the page where he offers to stop has changed slightly over time.  In the original version, he still did it, but he had a sort of skeevy, knowing expression on his face as he looked away from her (so she couldn't see it), which made him seem a bit manipulative.  In the current version he looks a bit frustrated and unsure himself.

(I mean that expression alone didn't make him a horrible person or anything, but my impression was that he definitely came off as a somewhat more skeevy guy in the original than in the redraw.)

I definitely don't know where they're getting the idea that he drugged her from, though.  And the fact that I'm analyzing slight details of his expression as he says stuff to try and infer things about his portrayal shows just how little we know about him either way.

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## Onyavar

> It's worth pointing out that, by my recollection, the page where he offers to stop has changed slightly over time.  In the original version, he still did it, but he had a sort of skeevy, knowing expression on his face as he looked away from her (so she couldn't see it), which made him seem a bit manipulative.  In the current version he looks a bit frustrated and unsure himself.
> 
> (I mean that expression alone didn't make him a horrible person or anything, but my impression was that he definitely came off as a somewhat more skeevy guy in the original than in the redraw.)
> 
> I definitely don't know where they're getting the idea that he drugged her from, though.  And the fact that I'm analyzing slight details of his expression as he says stuff to try and infer things about his portrayal shows just how little we know about him either way.


I started reading in the middle of book 2, when this exchange of the first chapter had already happened, but fortunately, there is an archive in the dedicated wikia for the comic.


Title length: Can we change to "K6BD II: ...." ?

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## guttering flame

> I started reading in the middle of book 2, when this exchange of the first chapter had already happened, but fortunately, there is an archive in the dedicated wikia for the comic.


Thanks for the link. Color version is better. Dude looks the same amount of duche in both versions imo. He doesn't force her to sex but isn't really considerate either. Doesn't need to be a semi-rapist to be a duche. His expressions and words paint a guy that's self centered, a bad influence and a general duche. Drugs are not unlikely.

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## Eldan

> Except he didn't drug her and he seemed to respect her boundaries and explicitly asked and waited for consent.
> 
> Sure, her friends don't like him and she probably doesn't even like him all that much (she was more concerned about losing her virginity than who it was with) but "the main character doesn't love him" and "the main character's friends don't like him" don't automatically make Zaid a bad guy.
> 
> He would make a pretty cool arch-enemy, though. He also makes an alright damsel-in-distress, so I can't decide which I would rather have him be.


Honestly, I've read so many badly crowbared in romances over the years that one of my favourite tropes now is "Characters mutually and respectfully decide they are not right for each other". I'd rather that he was neither a total damsel nor an archvillain.

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## Aquillion

> Thanks for the link. Color version is better. Dude looks the same amount of duche in both versions imo. He doesn't force her to sex but isn't really considerate either. Doesn't need to be a semi-rapist to be a duche. His expressions and words paint a guy that's self centered, a bad influence and a general duche. Drugs are not unlikely.


Comparing the two, I feel that his eyes in the original make him look manipulative, while his eyes in the current one just look frustrated / annoyed / resigned.

Either way I can understand Allison's roommates viewing him as a creep, but I feel the second one makes him come off a bit better because he seems more "equal" to her, so to speak - less of an experienced playboy, more a flustered guy.

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## Hamsandlich

Honestly, Allison and Zaid's relationship seemed like a mutually exploitative one. They were both using each other for sex. Allison says she _scheduled_ losing her virginity to him while Zaid came off as really pushy and not really respectful of her personal reluctance when she actually got down to doing the deed.

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## Onyavar

> - less of an experienced playboy, more a flustered guy.


He even comes off as a possible virgin himself.
All we know about claim that he is an experienced partner, was people telling he told that stuff everywhere.

Agreed on the mutual exploitation, too.

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## guttering flame

Could he be one of the 6 BILLION DEMONS that haunt her and she needs to destroy? I'd like their meeting to be a disappointment for both of them. Zaid is the damsel in distress in David's tower that Allison needs to rescue or so she thinks but as a damsel in distress he doesn't have much going for him. Though I don't dislike him so far in the scenes in David's world.

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## halfeye

> He even comes off as a possible virgin himself.


Me too on that one, I dunno why.

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## Professor Gnoll

New Offering

...So, Allison's been practising Head of John as well?

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## Olinser

> Honestly, Allison and Zaid's relationship seemed like a mutually exploitative one. They were both using each other for sex. Allison says she _scheduled_ losing her virginity to him while Zaid came off as really pushy and not really respectful of her personal reluctance when she actually got down to doing the deed.


Yep. It seemed like she just picked a guy she knew would be available for sex and wasn't interested in an actual relationship with so that she could get rid of him without a big deal afterwards.

And Zaid, from what little we've seen of him and heard of him from others, seems like he's just kind of an *******.

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## lord_khaine

Now that i think is unfair.
So far the only thing he has really done is be unpopular with Allisons friends.
And then be kidnapped.

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## guttering flame

His conversations with King Solomon paint him as intelligent. His calm demeanor changed my opinion about the drugs. If he was a druggist he'd be freaking out over total drug deprivation.

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## Onyavar

> If he was a druggist he'd be freaking out over total drug deprivation.


Yes, because there is no middle way. Zaid couldn't possibly be a guy who only used drugs occasionally.

And funny, Solomon looks pretty stern, but we don't really know his stance on drugs. He could be the kind of person who allows limited use of some of them.

Speaking of drugs, I think the gilded cage has earth contacts and is involved in smuggling stuff from Earth.  Somehow.
They are smoking cigarettes that look like Earth ones, their card games look familiar and there is an exit sign on the door.
If that doesn't indicate Earth, it's a close parallel world that was only recently conquered.

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## guttering flame

> Yes, because there is no middle way. Zaid couldn't possibly be a guy who only used drugs occasionally.
> 
> And funny, Solomon looks pretty stern, but we don't really know his stance on drugs. He could be the kind of person who allows limited use of some of them.
> 
> Speaking of drugs, I think the gilded cage has earth contacts and is involved in smuggling stuff from Earth.  Somehow.
> They are smoking cigarettes that look like Earth ones, their card games look familiar and there is an exit sign on the door.
> If that doesn't indicate Earth, it's a close parallel world that was only recently conquered.


Obviously an Indian shaman consorted with a demon from the Void and learned all about smoking from it. Same goes for cards. We were never a closed system. But invading Earth and blackmailing Allicia (and Zaid maybe?) with it is a lucrative option. I wonder if the plot will go that way.

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## Iruka

That is a well trained eye ball.

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## rooster707

New Offering

Getting stabbed in the eye may not cause permanent damage, but it still hurts like a b***, apparently.




> Is King David building Allison's boyfriend to be her arch-enemy? Could be interesting. From what her friends said he sounds like bad news and I think a *druggist.* If I were in her shoes I forget about him.





> His conversations with King Solomon paint him as intelligent. His calm demeanor changed my opinion about the drugs. If he was a *druggist* he'd be freaking out over total drug deprivation.

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## mystic1110

The descriptions from the Manual of Hands and Feet are great. Sniper Paladin Monk Knight Style is great.

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## Olinser

CALLED IT. Boss coming out for a fight.

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## guttering flame

> New Offering
> 
> Getting stabbed in the eye may not cause permanent damage, but it still hurts like a b***, apparently.


*By my bald pate! The druggist is not high! Inconceivable!!!*

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## Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins

> *By my bald pate! The druggist is not high! Inconceivable!!!*


Oh, oh no, my dude... A druggist is another, more old fashioned word for a pharmacist. They don't tend to operate high.

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## guttering flame

> Oh, oh no, my dude... A druggist is another, more old fashioned word for a pharmacist.


Inconceivable

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## rooster707

> The descriptions from the Manual of Hands and Feet are great. Sniper Paladin Monk Knight Style is great.


Indeed. Im hoping we get one on Ki Rata at some point, from whats on the tumblr it sounds pretty crazy.

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## Nettlekid

For some reason I have no level of excitement for this whole fight scene. Maybe it's because it's a demigod against mooks and we don't know the upper limit of Allison's power, but mostly I'm still not on board with Allison being a martial arts master, even if she sometimes slips up (to no consequence.) I guess it's because we already had an awesome martial artist in the cast and we don't need another to show off cool martial arts stuff. I prefer White Chain being all precise and mighty, Cio whipping out weird items and using spells, and Allison using wild and untamed power from the Key to smash through anything in her way. It's inelegant but when you have that much raw power on your hands you don't NEED to be elegant.

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## Eldan

Yeah, that. I don't care about this, and Alison feels like a totally new character and we didn't see how she got there.

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## Ibrinar

I won't judge new Allison till after the fight and we see some more normal interaction. Anyway pure brute force is nice but I don't think it is enough against the biggest threats.

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## sihnfahl

> Yeah, that. I don't care about this, and Alison feels like a totally new character and we didn't see how she got there.


Training montages aren't really that exciting, IMO.




> I won't judge new Allison till after the fight and we see some more normal interaction. Anyway pure brute force is nice but I don't think it is enough against the biggest threats.


Well, the biggest threats to her are the demis.  And, yes, brute force won't work with them.  They're probably as powerful as she is, and far older and more experienced.

Enthusiasm only goes so far.

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## 5a Violista

> Maybe it's because it's a demigod against mooks and we don't know the upper limit of Allison's power


I think this fight scene is supposed to establish the upper limit of her power?

At least, I hope it does. What I hope happens here is that, while she can apparently handle herself against the mooks (even though she makes rookie mistakes, she's powerful enough to survive through them) she'll have difficulty against their boss and have to be bailed out either by White Chain or Cio.

If this scene _is_ supposed to establish the upper limit of her power, I'd much rather have this scene than a training montage.

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## Eldan

We'll see. It still feels like a jarring jump to me, is all. How should i say this... it feels as if the character I know is gone, and replaced by a vaguely similar looking one with a very different personality and skillset. I can't yet say if I like this new main character. 
I don't necessarily want to see training montage, is what I mean. But so far, I don't see much continuity between earlier Allison and this Allison. That will hopefully change when we get a few character moments.

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## Onyavar

Well, this story looks like it became a martial arts movie for no reason, but I think that Abbadon wants to show how much Allison has learnt, before she gets clobbered again, by more competent adversaries.

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## guttering flame

I don't mind the time-jump. I assume after this second scene or maybe the one after we'll meet the gang again and learn what happened during the missing time.

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## mystic1110

> We'll see. It still feels like a jarring jump to me, is all. How should i say this... it feels as if the character I know is gone, and replaced by a vaguely similar looking one with a very different personality and skillset. I can't yet say if I like this new main character. 
> I don't necessarily want to see training montage, is what I mean. But so far, I don't see much continuity between earlier Allison and this Allison. That will hopefully change when we get a few character moments.


Keep in mind that the Allison's we've seen were:

1) Have no clue WTF is going on, scarred out of her mind
2) Lost/Confused, and even if resolved had no real idea what she was getting into
3) Brave and Naive
4) Incubbused

As such - IDK, spend a year acquiring super martial arts and god powers PLUS spending a year getting IDK used to the world (the pre-time split was what, like a couple of days?) and its rythm, I can see someone becoming more assured and self-possessed.

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## Aquillion

> Training montages aren't really that exciting, IMO.


They can be fun to see.  And it wouldn't have had to have been more than a single page.

Especially when it also involves a degree of character development, I feel it's worth showing.

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## Hamsandlich

New Offering

Wherein we see an old "friend"...

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## Professor Gnoll

Allison looking a _lot_ like Incubus in that last panel.

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## Hamsandlich

He'd likely be very proud if he knew, vainglorious bastard that he is...

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## Onyavar

Hey, this might turn into an object lesson. 

Never ever underestimate a small, wrinkled old guy. They tend to be masters of obscure martial arts.

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## PraetorDragoon

ah, finally something to give this raid a bit more weight. 




> Hey, this might turn into an object lesson. 
> 
> Never ever underestimate a small, wrinkled old guy. They tend to be masters of obscure martial arts.


Rule 1 - "Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly smiling men!" 
Rule 19 - "Always remember Rule One and ask yourself, why was it created in the first place"

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## Iruka

Old Vash seems to have fallen on hard times.

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## Narkis

Who is this guy again?

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## sihnfahl

> Who is this guy again?


First appearance.

One of the demons who's after the Magus Gate.  And Allison's appearance pretty much led to the downfall...

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## Hamsandlich

> First appearance.
> 
> One of the demons who's after the Magus Gate.  And Allison's appearance pretty much led to the downfall...


He's a Servant(specifically, a Goblin), not a demon. Unless you mean "demon" in the allegorical sense that Abbadon says the comic's title refers to.

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## rooster707

New Offering.


*Spoiler*
Show

B O S S  F I G H T

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## Hamsandlich

huh... That's a Big'un...

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## lord_khaine

So.. a new bodyguard. 
Suposedly even tougher than an angel?
What the heck can this be?

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## mystic1110

Well its a red devil - so . . . princess? 

Speaking of devils - I totally forgot about Himself's deal. I would assume that Cio failed, so does that mean the Heretic's court has been loosed a year ago?

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## tyckspoon

> So.. a new bodyguard. 
> Suposedly even tougher than an angel?
> What the heck can this be?


Could be an oni-type creature, but I'm guessing it's a Red Demon, same class as Oscar. Probably not actually tougher than an angel, but depending on the contract struck with it may be more reliable/controllable than an angel that has forsaken the Old Law (..and of course angels that are still following the Old Law wouldn't ever work in this position, and just forget about trying to do anything with the Thorns.)

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## Olinser

> Well its a red devil - so . . . princess? 
> 
> Speaking of devils - I totally forgot about Himself's deal. I would assume that Cio failed, so does that mean the Heretic's court has been loosed a year ago?


Can't be Princess he only has 1 straight horn, princess has 2 curved horns.

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## Hamsandlich

Also, unless he gets a definite name, I petition that this bodyguard devil henceforth be referred to as KILLBOSS (capitalization optional)

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## tyckspoon

> Well its a red devil - so . . . princess? 
> 
> Speaking of devils - I totally forgot about Himself's deal. I would assume that Cio failed, so does that mean the Heretic's court has been loosed a year ago?


The actual terms of success or failure were not stated on-page; the band of adventurers did successfully penetrate Yre's defenses. So did they make a bet on something like 'You will not be able to breach the treasure vault of the Grand Dragon' (pulled it off, albeit with casualties) or 'You will not be able to recover your boyfriend from Yre' (a fixed bet from the start, as it turns out he wasn't even there?)

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## lord_khaine

> Could be an oni-type creature, but I'm guessing it's a Red Demon, same class as Oscar. Probably not actually tougher than an angel, but depending on the contract struck with it may be more reliable/controllable than an angel that has forsaken the Old Law (..and of course angels that are still following the Old Law wouldn't ever work in this position, and just forget about trying to do anything with the Thorns.)


Well.. Allison though she had to fight an angel but still busted the place up. 
So we almost got to assume this is a step up from at least a young Angel.

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## tyckspoon

> Well.. Allison though she had to fight an angel but still busted the place up. 
> So we almost got to assume this is a step up from at least a young Angel.


Ooh.. indeed, she thought she was going to deal with an angel. An angel her own trainer had fought before, and presumably could give specific tips and methods of how to try to defeat. Instead she gets something that is presumably at least as dangerous as that angel (Preem Vash would hardly trade down, after all) but with completely unknown capacities. That's not gonna be a good thing.

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## guttering flame

> Ooh.. indeed, she thought she was going to deal with an angel. An angel her own trainer had fought before, and presumably could give specific tips and methods of how to try to defeat. Instead she gets something that is presumably at least as dangerous as that angel (Preem Vash would hardly trade down, after all) but with completely unknown capacities. That's not gonna be a good thing.


Allison teacher, white chain saw that angel destroyed when they were both in the angel realm.

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## Hamsandlich

New Offering

The Unicorn Speaks. And he has the second most badass jacket in Throne.

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## lord_khaine

And surprisingly, the Unicorn is in fact a devil. Just one who learned martial art.

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## Hamsandlich

> And surprisingly, the Unicorn is in fact a devil. Just one who learned martial art.


My money is on them having learned Demon Flips the Cart, first mentioned in the holy alt-text of this comic

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## Hamsandlich

New Offering

I was right!

Also:

KILLBOSS' nonchalant brutality reminds me a lot of Oscar.

Also, notice that Allison's Atum Halo flares when she spits blood at KILLBOSS. Divinity is to be found in defiance...

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## Olinser

We also got a glimpse of the mask - it does look like a Red mask.

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## mystic1110

> My money is on them having learned Demon Flips the Cart, first mentioned in the holy alt-text of this comic


Interestingly enough - Demon Flips Cart in the alt text is an "angelic art" - but in the description of the martial art it " can only be learned by men and devils, who have the abundance of black Atum needed."

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## 5a Violista

> Interestingly enough - Demon Flips Cart in the alt text is an "angelic art" - but in the description of the martial art it " can only be learned by men and devils, who have the abundance of black Atum needed."


Yes, I noticed that too; it's pretty interesting.

Maybe the angels created it as a hypothetical martial art (as in "Hey, this could potentially work" sort of way), but were unable to practice it (due to the absence of the black fire inside them) so they taught it to a human.

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## Professor Gnoll

> Yes, I noticed that too; it's pretty interesting.
> 
> Maybe the angels created it as a hypothetical martial art (as in "Hey, this could potentially work" sort of way), but were unable to practice it (due to the absence of the black fire inside them) so they taught it to a human.





> Interestingly enough - Demon Flips Cart in the alt text is an "angelic art" - but in the description of the martial art it " can only be learned by men and devils, who have the abundance of black Atum needed."


In all likelihood Abaddon just forgot, or came up with the name on a whim and didn't decide what it was until later. Like how there's a red-masked devil early in the comic who very clearly doesn't match what a red devil is meant to be like. But that doesn't mean that can't be the explanation for the discrepancy.

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## mystic1110

Its way more fun for us to find inconsistencies and figure out how to resolve them thematically.  :Small Tongue:

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## Leewei

Both origins of the martial art are equally and exactly true.  The K6BD-verse has no problem with paradox.  It is simply one, gargantuan, glorious lie, with an occasional inconsistency thrown into the mix.

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## Hamsandlich

> There is no such thing as Truth, said YISUN, rely on lies instead. They are far more consistent. 





> Why, Lord? sputtered Aesma





> Because we constantly strive to uphold them.


- From _Aesma and the Three Masters(And the Lessons She Didn't Learn from Them)_

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## guttering flame

Eat your hearts out, TrainingMontageCravers

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## Onyavar

when I look at the previous pages, I see not THAT many training montage cravers. many people said to be cautious and not rash in condemning the writer.

Turns out they were right. It has been a training scene all along!

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## Eldan

I didn't necessarily want a training montage. I just wanted something to show how Alison got from the person she was at the end of the last arc to where she is at the beginning of this one, which seems like an entirely different person. Now that she's actually losing and lost some of that apparently quite cocky attitude, I'm a bit more back on board. It was just weird to go from broken, injured, uncertain, often scared, but quite determined Alison to muscular, extremely confident strong Alison.

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## Tom Tearcamel

The update made me so happy. WC adjusting Allisons form with her foot... lol

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## Olinser

> The update made me so happy. WC adjusting Allisons form with her foot... lol


I kept having flashbacks to Kung Fu Panda and Shifu whacking Po with the stick.

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## Narkis

I was kinda unsure about the timeskip at first, but this comic sold me.

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## Eldan

Yeah, same. Alison is recognizeable again.

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## lord_khaine

I like that Allison is more back to herself. 
But i hate the actual comic. 
So what, the angry red devil is just waiting for Chain to adjust the posture of her student?
Thats 6 words spoken. Thats more than enough time for delivering 6 punches.

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## Narkis

Oh, come on. Everyone knows talking is a free action

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## tyckspoon

Standing on your opponent's outstretched limb must be part of the proper form for this particular strike  :Small Confused:

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## Eldan

New offering. 

So, uh, for those of us at work, where does that Youtube link go?

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## guttering flame

> New offering. 
> 
> So, uh, for those of us at work, where does that Youtube link go?


This clip: 
My Hero by Foo Fighters

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## Tom Tearcamel

:Small Red Face:  The King can make a stone blush.

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## Nettlekid

Is the author trying something new with the art style? I don't hate it but everyone just looks kind of different and unusual.

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## Olinser

> Is the author trying something new with the art style? I don't hate it but everyone just looks kind of different and unusual.


He's done this basically between every major chapter so far. Allison design is the most obvious it significantly changed after departing through the gate the second time, after the business with Ohm, and now after time skip.

The full art style has been adapting as he goes.

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## Hamsandlich

New Offering

Vash has been taken into custody before it seems. Interesting that White Chain claims the static tendencies of UN-aspected beings such as angels make them more powerful than humans, when YS-aspected Zoss singlehandedly slew the most powerful of them millennia ago. Perhaps that same tendency towards stasis has contributed to their inability to do anything _proactive_ about Throne's decay...

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## Eldan

I don't see much change in the artstyle.

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## PraetorDragoon

> New Offering
> 
> Vash has been taken into custody before it seems. Interesting that White Chain claims the static tendencies of UN-aspected beings such as angels make them more powerful than humans, when YS-aspected Zoss singlehandedly slew the most powerful of them millennia ago. Perhaps that same tendency towards stasis has contributed to their inability to do anything _proactive_ about Throne's decay...


Average angels seem to be stronger than average humans, but that doesn't stop individuals from being stronger than others.

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## lord_khaine

Suposedly the Prime Angels had trouble fighting back, because it was not in their orders or instructions.
And so far it has really only been the demi-urges that has really displayed an ability to fight angels on a equal ground.

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## rooster707

> New Offering
> 
> Vash has been taken into custody before it seems. Interesting that White Chain claims the static tendencies of UN-aspected beings such as angels make them more powerful than humans, when YS-aspected Zoss singlehandedly slew the most powerful of them millennia ago. Perhaps that same tendency towards stasis has contributed to their inability to do anything _proactive_ about Throne's decay...


It seems Preem Hamsandlich has forgotten one very important fact.

*Spoiler*
Show

METATRON LIVES

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## sihnfahl

Hm, Allison's looking kind of ... buff.

And Cio?  Jealously possessive.

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## Olinser

> Suposedly the Prime Angels had trouble fighting back, because it was not in their orders or instructions.
> And so far it has really only been the demi-urges that has really displayed an ability to fight angels on a equal ground.


Or it WAS in their instructions, and this has all been part of Metatron's plan from the start.

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## Onyavar

> Or it WAS in their instructions, and this has all been part of Metatron's plan from the start.


Longtime plans belong to the most ridiculous tropes in epic science fantasy. They are secret until they are flawlessly pulled off after ten thousand years, with never a structural change in the plan. Strategy and tactics? Naw, we have a long term plan.

In this case, you suspect Metatron let Zoss capture and torture him and also deliberately weakened the angels position, so that two thousand years later, he could initiate the next phase of his secret long term plan to restore the angels' supreme power...?

That sounds like Microsoft selling their most profitable core branches to hundred different competitors, but secretly planning to buy them all back from the invested interest (and with an overall profit) ten years later after the competitors have run their businesses into the ground.
Such a flawless longtime plan can't go wrong after all.

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## Olinser

> Longtime plans belong to the most ridiculous tropes in epic science fantasy. They are secret until they are flawlessly pulled off after ten thousand years, with never a structural change in the plan. Strategy and tactics? Naw, we have a long term plan.
> 
> In this case, you suspect Metatron let Zoss capture and torture him and also deliberately weakened the angels position, so that two thousand years later, he could initiate the next phase of his secret long term plan to restore the angels' supreme power...?
> 
> That sounds like Microsoft selling their most profitable core branches to hundred different competitors, but secretly planning to buy them all back from the invested interest (and with an overall profit) ten years later after the competitors have run their businesses into the ground.
> Such a flawless longtime plan can't go wrong after all.


It can't go wrong when you can actually see the future.

Remember, per the creator Jadis explicitly has perfect sight of the future from her Key, which was also stolen by Zoss from Metatron. So Metatron almost certainly has some ability to see the future (to what degree is arguable - but if Jadis, a lesser human, has perfect future sight then its not unreasonable to say Metatron does as well).

10000 years is nothing to an immortal, eternal angel if your end goal is much greater.

----------


## lord_khaine

> It can't go wrong when you can actually see the future.
> 
> Remember, per the creator Jadis explicitly has perfect sight of the future from her Key, which was also stolen by Zoss from Metatron. So Metatron almost certainly has some ability to see the future (to what degree is arguable - but if Jadis, a lesser human, has perfect future sight then its not unreasonable to say Metatron does as well).
> 
> 10000 years is nothing to an immortal, eternal angel if your end goal is much greater.


Remember it was a "lesser" human who initially trashed all the prime angels.
And so far we have not gotten any signs from any angel that they posses future sight. Or know about other angels having future sight. 

So its just as likely, if not more likely, that the future sight Jadis has, and that broke her mind, is a unique ability of hers.
Its certainly not an ability any other demi-urge has shown sight of either.

----------


## Onyavar

The perfect foresight angle is a paradox. If you can see the exact future before it happens just like you saw it, then you can't change the future. You can't even change your actions, it's all predetermined. 

If you can shape the future through your actions and still watch the possible futures fluctuate/change accordingly, then you rather shouldn't choose an action that will first of all cripple your ability to do anything, and reducing your power and influence for thousands of years. I mean, you could, but as a prime angle ruling over a perfect heavenly Throne, what would motivate him to turn his world over to people who would ruin it? The promise of a new al-yisun, yeah maybe, but that would mean our fledgling heroine will soon enough turn into a transcended goddess.

Granted, I think Metatron has great wisdom, and he's got the intel to pull many strings via the thornies and 2Michael, but I guess his plan(s) are fallible and not based on his own prophecies and visions.

----------


## Hamsandlich

> Remember, per the creator Jadis explicitly has perfect sight of the future from her Key, which was also stolen by Zoss from Metatron. So Metatron almost certainly has some ability to see the future (to what degree is arguable - but if Jadis, a lesser human, has perfect future sight then its not unreasonable to say Metatron does as well).


Jadis has perfect sight of the future because she used her immense knowledge of the Art (and apparently techno-priests) to travel outside the Wheel and Witness The Shape. The act vaporized the techno-bishops and relegated her to her current rotting form trapped in crystal stasis.

----------


## guttering flame

> Jadis has perfect sight of the future because she used her immense knowledge of the Art (and apparently techno-priests) to travel outside the Wheel and Witness The Shape. The act vaporized the techno-bishops and relegated her to her current rotting form trapped in crystal stasis.


Source please?

----------


## rooster707

> Source please?


I dont have an exact quote* but its somewhere on Abbadons tumblr.

*does... does tumblr not have a search function? What the heck?

----------


## Iruka

> I dont have an exact quote* but its somewhere on Abbadons tumblr.
> 
> *does... does tumblr not have a search function? What the heck?


What I did was open the archive and filter for 'Ask', then use crtl-f. Still a tedious process because it only searches a part of the page, I guess it does not load the whole thing at once?

Here is what I found:

Jadis is never wrong,

because Jadis is the Bearer of the Shape.

Jadis' knowledge is unrivaled.

Jadis is (or rather was) very powerful.

The technopriests died when beholding the Shape.

I found nothing which directly says she has pefect knowledge of the future, just that she is never wrong. Note that all her prophecies are also filtered through the interpretations of her priests.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I found nothing which directly says she has pefect knowledge of the future, just that she is never wrong. Note that all her prophecies are also filtered through the interpretations of her priests.


We were told she were omniscent. That does mean she knows everything.

----------


## Dragonus45

I thought the deal was that she was always 100% accurate but not always properly interpreted?

----------


## guttering flame

Did Jadis do like Aesma and broke out of the universe to take a peek?

----------


## Aquillion

It's important to remember that the stories about Aesma are at least _partially_ apocryphal.  The story you're referring to, for instance, has her speaking to and interacting with YISUN as if they're a person, which is patiently impossible.  (YISUN's holy suicide is the reason anything exists, including Aesma herself, so at _best_ Aesma can only consult the fragment of YISUN that exists within herself, metaphorically speaking.  YISUN sitting around talking to his disciples is patient nonsense or, at best, a metaphor.)

But if we take it seriously, I would argue that Aesma didn't really _comprehend_ the shape of the universe.  "It was wheel-shaped" isn't really meant to be seen as the serious answer of someone who has obtained enlightenment on all things; the title of the story is, after all, "Aesma and the Three Masters (And The Lessons She Never Learned from Them)"  The story emphasizes that Aesma's teachings are about constant striving, but it doesn't imply that she actually successfully achieved anything akin to what Jadis did (and one of the links above explicitly says Jadis is the only one to ever actually do it.)

In comparison, Jadis' story is more of a cautionary tale of what happens when you actually reach THE END and peek at the metaphorical last page of the book of creation, ie. you become a burnt-out shell wishing you were dead.  In that respect you could see her as a sort of counterpoint to that story about Aesma - Aesma knows nothing but is constantly striving; but Jadis' life story is basically "but don't actually _succeed_, in a cosmically final absolute sense, or you'll regret it.  You want to keep struggling to turn another page.  You don't want to peek at the entire story.  Don't do that."

----------


## guttering flame

> It's important to remember that the stories about Aesma are at least _partially_ apocryphal.  The story you're referring to, for instance, has her speaking to and interacting with YISUN as if they're a person, which is patiently impossible.  (YISUN's holy suicide is the reason anything exists, including Aesma herself, so at _best_ Aesma can only consult the fragment of YISUN that exists within herself, metaphorically speaking.  YISUN sitting around talking to his disciples is patient nonsense or, at best, a metaphor.)


We're told repeatedly the world is one big paradox so just add it to the pile. If you want a logical explanation, maybe Yisun can divide itself all it wants, its totality remain. You can divide the sea but you still have sea. Or the universes and its gods are Yisun and character Yisun is a personification the other gods can conjure with their power.




> But if we take it seriously, I would argue that Aesma didn't really _comprehend_ the shape of the universe.  "It was wheel-shaped" isn't really meant to be seen as the serious answer of someone who has obtained enlightenment on all things; the title of the story is, after all, "Aesma and the Three Masters (And The Lessons She Never Learned from Them)"  The story emphasizes that Aesma's teachings are about constant striving, but it doesn't imply that she actually successfully achieved anything akin to what Jadis did (and one of the links above explicitly says Jadis is the only one to ever actually do it.)


Yes, I know. I wondered whether Jadis did the same things to reach her enlightenment. Aesma was concentrating too hard on her own navel to notice anything significant about the universe.




> In comparison, Jadis' story is more of a cautionary tale of what happens when you actually reach THE END and peek at the metaphorical last page of the book of creation, ie. you become a burnt-out shell wishing you were dead.  In that respect you could see her as a sort of counterpoint to that story about Aesma - Aesma knows nothing but is constantly striving; but Jadis' life story is basically "but don't actually _succeed_, in a cosmically final absolute sense, or you'll regret it.  You want to keep struggling to turn another page.  You don't want to peek at the entire story.  Don't do that."


Or maybe it's 'Don't try to imitate a Goddess among Goddesses like Aesma because you're a mere mortal.' Jadis was vain enough to believe she could better Aesma and like the 3 Masters her success was a failure.

----------


## Gez

> Or maybe it's 'Don't try to imitate a Goddess among Goddesses like Aesma because you're a mere mortal.' Jadis was vain enough to believe she could better Aesma and like the 3 Masters her success was a failure.


Whereas for Aesma, her failure was a success. She didn't get a good look at the Wheel and didn't understand what she saw, so she was fine. She was just too dumb to lose, basically.

The universe seems to favor arrogant loudmouth idiots who act over the wise and cautious who merely contemplate because they are too aware to dare to act.

----------


## tyckspoon

> The universe seems to favor arrogant loudmouth idiots who act over the wise and cautious who merely contemplate because they are too aware to dare to act.


Reach Heaven Through Violence. The sanctioned Action is To Cut. Sitting around meditating is for those who couldn't hack it on the real road to Royalty.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Professor Gnoll

> It's important to remember that the stories about Aesma are at least _partially_ apocryphal.  The story you're referring to, for instance, has her speaking to and interacting with YISUN as if they're a person, which is patiently impossible.  (YISUN's holy suicide is the reason anything exists, including Aesma herself, so at _best_ Aesma can only consult the fragment of YISUN that exists within herself, metaphorically speaking.  YISUN sitting around talking to his disciples is patient nonsense or, at best, a metaphor.)


In the same way Allison talking to Zoss is impossible, since he's dead, right?
Remember that YISUN exists outside of causality.
...the stories are still not necessarily literal, but that's not the best reason why.

----------


## Onyavar

Hiatus is over, and Allison puts her fort into her mouth. Well almost. She apparently learned what topic to avoid near White Chain.

I wonder if they are now returning to Chio?

----------


## Tom Tearcamel

Mystery Angel! But, the mention of good ol White Chain Born In Emptiness Returns To Subdue Evil causes him to awaken from the void. More antagonists?

 Im a firm believer in the Law of Conservation of Characters when its practical. My guess is its 10 Vigilant Gaze Purges the Horizon, and hes going to try to use 82WC to counter 6 Juggernaut Star Scours the Universe and the Thorns, at the expense of Allison, who he doesnt care at all about.

10VG just seemed like a dynamic and interesting character in the brief time we had with him. (He was the orange sphinx-ish Angel with the floating-ring-head)

He seems like someone from 82WCs past to mirror Oscar from Cios.

On the new page, not much to say except that the self exceptance is refreshing.

----------


## Hamsandlich

New Offering A Second Training Montage, somewhat more formulaic this time

----------


## Hamsandlich

New Offering Wherein Lies are Told

----------


## lord_khaine

Yes.. lies are told indeed.. or at least shown. 
Though if nothing else. Its at least interesting to finally hear a bit more about the arts.

----------


## Onyavar

> Yes.. lies are told indeed.. or at least shown. 
> Though if nothing else. Its at least interesting to finally hear a bit more about the arts.


I remembered there was once a wiki page about the Art. I am delighted to see that in December 2017, it was vastly improved. Though, much of it remains speculative and now we're learning with a master (of the red art at least). Allison seems to already know pretty much about the white art, though, if only by instinct.

But as instructive as a full lesson from Cio might be, it could also turn boring. Wait, what am I talking about, Cio is the last one to get boring. I wonder though, what was she teaching Allison in the last year that they only now have arrived at "101 Introduction into the Red Art".

----------


## Hamsandlich

> Though, much of it remains speculative and now we're learning with a master (of the red art at least). Allison seems to already know pretty much about the white art, though, if only by instinct.


Well, The Art(of Lying to the Face of God), i.e. Sorcery, has been stated to be explicitly verbal, essentially telling a lie so believable that you fool the universe into making it so (which is why normal Angels, who can lie but not very well, suck at it). What Allison has been doing mostly up until this point is "martial arts bull****"(in Abbadon's own words) and Division/Cutting(which is also what Maya and 6 Juggernaut practice), the effects of which can be somewhat replicated with sorcery. WOG is that The Art is like cheating, you can get pretty far with it, but its still not the same as actually learning other esoteric disciplines.

----------


## Eldan

Pretty sure what Alison did with the demon tree was Black Art, despite the white light show.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

Always interesting to read more about magic or equilavents.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Pretty sure what Alison did with the demon tree was Black Art, despite the white light show.


According to the wiki, The Black Art is the art of creation, of making something out of nothing.
It has no known wielders, so i suspect its more likely a White art she used.

----------


## Onyavar

> According to the wiki, [...]
> It has no known wielders [...].


I read that part as "the wielders of the Black Art haven't been explicitly revealed in-comic yet." Or am I missing a source quote where Abaddon says that in-universe, nobody knows black artists?

The demiurges were called "black emperors" and "black kings". And the same demiurges are also considered mighty sorcerors, each. So... question mark?

We haven't seen anyone practice black magic, yet, but I keep wondering if the "create sth. from nothing" angle of the black art is related to initially shape the hot black flame and name it "devils". (Or humans?)
Once created like this, it can replicate itself? And lead to chaos and destruction?

Because really, the cases are rare in fantasy where "black magic" means something creative and entirely benevolent. From the use of black in this comic (hey, look at himself!) I deduce it is not one of these rare cases.

----------


## Hamsandlich

> According to the wiki, The Black Art is the art of creation, of making something out of nothing.
> It has no known wielders, so i suspect its more likely a White art she used.


She didn't use The Art at all, no words = no spell, what she did was channel the power of the Key to make her Will manifest as Zoss' Blade of Want. If anything she used The Art of Cutting(which has the same effect but different mechanism as the White Art) the same way Maya and 6 Juggernaut Star do, sublimating her Self to the Act so perfectly so as to make her will manifest.

----------


## Smurfton

Consider that Allison is using the Red Art on air. Creation and destruction Arts both need to be something more than just creation or destruction, otherwise nobody would bother studying them. In most cases, turning air into something may as well be creation, and turning something into air may as well be destruction.

----------


## lord_khaine

> We haven't seen anyone practice black magic, yet, but I keep wondering if the "create sth. from nothing" angle of the black art is related to initially shape the hot black flame and name it "devils". (Or humans?)
> Once created like this, it can replicate itself? And lead to chaos and destruction?


It seems like its creating the same way a flame does. By comsuming something else.
The example the Wiki gave were of the gods creating throne from nothing.

Its also why i think the Black, in Black Emperors, should just be taken as evil/dark/wicked ect. 

But black magic meanwhile, has been described as the art of creating something from nothing, creating life, altering souls. 
I dont see any reason to contest the wiki on this, just because black magic blows stuff up in other media.
Partly because its the Black Goddess Yis who is the goddess of substance.

----------


## Weimann

New offering.

Congrats on completing your mission, Allison.

----------


## Ibrinar

Hmm still wondering how that works with the whole carapace thing. Well guess our MC can take stabs in the eyeball without damage so that might be less of a problem or Cio is softer than she looks.

----------


## Hamsandlich

Anyone else notice similarities to The Lie of The Iron Plum from this page in the comic

----------


## Weimann

*Spoiler: Bad memes*
Show

I have eaten 
the plum
that wasn't in
the icebox

and which
you had recently
created
with Red Arts

Forgive me
it was a metaphor
for character growth
and that's hot





> Anyone else notice similarities to The Lie of The Iron Plum from this page in the comic


That is neat! I love those little subtle analogies.

----------


## Nettlekid

> Anyone else notice similarities to The Lie of The Iron Plum from this page in the comic


Seeing that page, it's interesting to see the way Cio was drawn when she was supposed to be a creepy, quasi-insectoid devil and not some dark sexy imp. I wonder if Abaddon planned for this to be the relationship from the get-go or if this was a different direction he decided to take. I'm kind of surprised, it really doesn't feel like this current Allison has any of the old one left in her.

----------


## Hamsandlich

> Seeing that page, it's interesting to see the way Cio was drawn when she was supposed to be a creepy, quasi-insectoid devil and not some dark sexy imp. I wonder if Abaddon planned for this to be the relationship from the get-go or if this was a different direction he decided to take. I'm kind of surprised, it really doesn't feel like this current Allison has any of the old one left in her.


Cio's been low key fanfic shipping herself with Allison since Book 1. Look at her reaction in this page. IIRC, Abbadon says that he was still working out Cio's visual design at that point. In Book 2 she outright expresses physical attraction to her during her drinking match with Vladok.

As for Allison, what we saw of the old one was basically 90% having an existential freak-out. And Cio's still insectoid from what we saw in the previous volume, but as a devil and therefore primordial chaos artificially given identity, her physiology isn't exactly consistent.

----------


## Weimann

> Seeing that page, it's interesting to see the way Cio was drawn when she was supposed to be a creepy, quasi-insectoid devil and not some dark sexy imp. I wonder if Abaddon planned for this to be the relationship from the get-go or if this was a different direction he decided to take. I'm kind of surprised, it really doesn't feel like this current Allison has any of the old one left in her.


The changes in Allison that have occurred during the comic's run, and particularly accelerated at the start of this most recent arc, are pretty interesting. On the one hand, I agree with you that the "current" Allison has made a pretty big leap from where she was previously, without clearly showing the trajectory. Her characterisation has not been very fluid, and while the current flashback covers some parts, it's one of Abbadon's weaknesses as a writer that makes it somewhat difficult to pick the comic up, I find.

However, I think the problem lies with the choppiness of the changes, not with the scale of them. It's true that few things of the "old" Allison seems to remain right now (even if we do see her retain a few habits, like putting on lipstick). But I think that's indicative of just how fake the old Allison was. She focused all her attention outwards, on presenting an image, and forgetting herself. I mean, even when she was trying to sleep with Zaid, the primary purpose was to check a box on a list, to be able to present as "not virgin". 

Now, when she's developing abilities with a focus on herself primarily, it's not really strange that what emerges is something completely different. Training and learning and developing her abilities is what's helping her gain the confidence she was previously trying to gain from external approval. This also comes with a healthy measure of introspection. Previously, she rejected attraction to Cio because she wasn't attracted to females, as if her presentation of her identity made such feelings impossible. Now, when Cio eats plums all cutesome, she's confident enough that she doesn't need to negotiate her feelings with her sense of identity. It's a pretty different Allison, and if you thought the old one was funny then I can see the issue, but I do think it makes sense. It also plays into the Asian idea of martial arts training as honing not only the body but also causing spiritual and personal development, which seems to fit the setting.

And, frankly, if you look deep there were hints of this side of Allison previously as well. I mean, she might not have a transformation sequence or a cat, but she's starting to become a pretty magical girl right now.

----------


## Onyavar

I am pretty sure that what we look at here was not the first lesson of Allison in magic. Though I am NOT sure if this comic is showing "present day" (aka one year after the bankrobbing) or sometimes in-between, bat late enough that Allison is already buffed up and with long hair.

But I'm again pretty sure, that this is a routine scene, and this is not the first time that Allison asks Cio out.
Remember the end of book 3? Cio: "I don't date. But, just ask [whenever you want sex]." Beat. Beat. Allison: "I'd like that?" Cio: Ha!

It follows for me that Cio has made it a rule for herself to not take the initiate and to never assume that Allison wants sex right now (not after what happened in the vault, and not after the conversation I cited above). And if that is her rule, Allison has to take the initiative whenever she wants to try it, and a wink-nudge wouldn't be working. She has to explicitly state it, so that there are no unfortunate misunderstandings that would lead to new scars. Hence, Cio has "no subtle bone."

I wonder what White Chain has to say about that relationship. Silent understanding? Silent grumbling? Outspoken reproach?

----------


## Hamsandlich

New Offering.


The King of The Pit returns.

----------


## Weimann

For some reason I genuinely thought we were rid of him.

I like this page, though, because it shows that training and lesbianism haven't solved all of Allison's issues offscreen. Her relationships with both Cio and herself are still complicated.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

> For some reason I genuinely thought we were rid of him.
> 
> I like this page, though, because it shows that training and lesbianism haven't solved all of Allison's issues offscreen. Her relationships with both Cio and herself are still complicated.


I too thought we got rid of him.

However, it does make sense that some of his power still lingers and improving Allion's skills does further his goals of wrecking the status quo and the rest of the Seven.

----------


## Eldan

This might not even be his power. He just likes showing up and snarking. And he seems intent on presenting himself as the charmingly rougish and reasonable one of the Demiurges to the Rising Heir. Which might well work as long as Allison never actually sees his realm or his real body.

Edit: also, the textbox "final lesson" makes me think this might actually be a regular occurence. Maybe he's dream-teaching her regularly? Given that the alt-text speaks about his mastery of sword law, which makes sense if he's the current General of the Middle Army, maybe he's actually given her weapons training.

----------


## Narkis

In the previous page, Allison talked about things neither Cio nor White Chain can teach her. I bet that's why she keeps him around. Lessons about her key, rulership, ambition, etc.

----------


## Hamsandlich

New Offering

Divinity Activation

Also, I love Inky's joker smile in panel 4

----------


## Olinser

> This might not even be his power. He just likes showing up and snarking. And he seems intent on presenting himself as the charmingly rougish and reasonable one of the Demiurges to the Rising Heir. Which might well work as long as Allison never actually sees his realm or his real body.
> 
> Edit: also, the textbox "final lesson" makes me think this might actually be a regular occurence. Maybe he's dream-teaching her regularly? Given that the alt-text speaks about his mastery of sword law, which makes sense if he's the current General of the Middle Army, maybe he's actually given her weapons training.


Yes, the clear implication was that this was a daily routine, Morning Routine -> Lessons with Cio -> Final lesson, wake up, do it all again.

----------


## Hamsandlich

New Offering

Wherein Allison receives instruction in Royalty

----------


## danelsan

Well, managing to wound a Demiurge at all is already pretty damn impressive. With the confirmation on the Tumblr that Incubus is a master of Head of John, though, that little cut on the face gains even more significance.

----------


## Hamsandlich

> Well, managing to wound a Demiurge at all is already pretty damn impressive. With the confirmation on the Tumblr that Incubus is a master of Head of John, though, that little cut on the face gains even more significance.


One of two possibilities, one is that Allison's Will is now powerful enough to dent the Atum-hardened flesh of a living god, the other is that Incubus' astral projection isn't representative of his true power and he _let_ Allison scratch him in order to build up her ego.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

I go with the "Incubus is a projection/extension and not as powerful as he is normally." theory. 

Still, interesting he is still hanging around. Wonder if its intentional of Allison or not.

----------


## Eldan

I like the astral projection theory. The image he projects there (heh) is quite different from how he appears in the flesh anyway, in the short bit were we saw him.

----------


## Olinser

> I go with the "Incubus is a projection/extension and not as powerful as he is normally." theory. 
> 
> Still, interesting he is still hanging around. Wonder if its intentional of Allison or not.


Well there's actually multiple questions there.

Incubus' body is pretty beaten up and he appears to be blind.

So there's basically 2 questions:

1) How powerful is Incubus' dream projection compared to his physical body

2) How powerful is that compared to the other Demiurges? Per the author, he is ranked 4th in Demiurge power, behind Jagganoth, Solomon David, and Gog-Agog.

Even if his Astral (or physical) body were weaker, would it still be more powerful than Mammon or Mottom?

As we've already seen, he can make multiple copies of himself at the same time and alter his physical being in the dreamworld.

Perhaps what we're looking at here is different bodies, different strengths, where his Astral body is far more powerful in terms of magic and flexing his Key, while his actual body is more of physical threat with swordsmanship and speed.

----------


## Hamsandlich

New Offering

Genesis of the Tyrant Saint or "Salami Dave's Origin Story"(I think)

----------


## Onyavar

> New Offering
> 
> Genesis of the Tyrant Saint or "Salami Dave's Origin Story"(I think)


Or, it's Maya ? The hair from the back fits both. The cloak indicates Maya as does the fact that Inky's the storyteller. The Ki Rata story indicates Solomon as does the fact that this book has Solomon on the cover.

We have seen a young, bald(!) Solomon devouring the atum of another demiurge in Seeker 2:10; but Yemmod is a different guy.

----------


## Olinser

> Or, it's Maya ? The hair from the back fits both. The cloak indicates Maya as does the fact that Inky's the storyteller. The Ki Rata story indicates Solomon as does the fact that this book has Solomon on the cover.
> 
> We have seen a young, bald(!) Solomon devouring the atum of another demiurge in Seeker 2:10; but Yemmod is a different guy.


Nah its going to be Solomon.

The author has previously stated Solomon was a master of Ki Rata.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

I think it is Solomon as well. Incubus doesn't strike me as the type that wants to talk about Maya anymore.

----------


## Eldan

Okay, who's Salami Dave, and why?

----------


## Onyavar

> Okay, who's Salami Dave, and why?


Solomon David. You now, that guy. His name is full of... um, let's say, subtext. And pretense.

Salami is a long, fat sausage made from horse. And S. Dave is a major beefcake. Some things can only be mocked by not taking them seriously.

And for some reason, there are unwise readers who like to mock Solomon David, believing _he cannot escape from the comic panels and crush them with an eyelash_.

----------


## Eldan

Well, yeah, I know who Solomon David is. I just hadn't heard that particular nickname before. Thanks.  :Small Smile:

----------


## rooster707

> Salami is a long, fat sausage made from *horse.*


Wait, what!?  :Small Eek: 

*googles*

Okay, that... doesn't appear to be true. Whew.

----------


## Gez

I prefer the nickname "Swolomon David".

Like, he set his empire's tech level at Classical Greco-Roman because that's how everyone gets to walk around shirtless and do hard physical labor. And then he gets to showboat about how he's the swolest man.

----------


## Eldan

> Wait, what!? 
> 
> *googles*
> 
> Okay, that... doesn't appear to be true. Whew.


Clasically, horse or donkey, yes. NOt so much anymore these days.

----------


## lord_khaine

Oh gods.. the bias against SD has just reached ridicoulus levels..  :Small Sigh: 

We were told this tale is about a female. 
The messager does not look like SD. 
And its not like we are now told there were an entire monk order who studied Ki Rata.
Solomon David is it the only practitioner. 

Its like assuming Maya is involved just because we hear there is a sword master.
Not everything is connected.

----------


## Professor Gnoll

> Oh gods.. the bias against SD has just reached ridicoulus levels.. 
> 
> We were told this tale is about a female. 
> The messager does not look like SD. 
> And its not like we are now told there were an entire monk order who studied Ki Rata.
> Solomon David is it the only practitioner. 
> 
> Its like assuming Maya is involved just because we hear there is a sword master.
> Not everything is connected.


New Offering
...you were saying?

----------


## Aquillion

Although that does raise the question of who the "she" is.

(Honestly, I think he was talking about Maya, too, since he's obsessed with her.  But that doesn't necessarily mean this story is about her, just a way of illustrating the point.)

----------


## mystic1110

> Although that does raise the question of who the "she" is.


Maybe a story that Maya told Incubus about Solomon regarding why she gave up her seat to him.

----------


## Onyavar

The Ki Rata chief monk was funny. He obviously didn't know the story of the silver prince Kassardis and the very wise frog .

I am 92.07% convinced now this is a Solomon origin story. Doesn't need to be true though.
Still do not know how it connects with Incubus friend, but he will get there.

----------


## Professor Gnoll

> The Ki Rata chief monk was funny. He obviously didn't know the story of the silver prince Kassardis and the very wise frog .
> 
> I am 92.07% convinced now this is a Solomon origin story. Doesn't need to be true though.
> Still do not know how it connects with Incubus friend, but he will get there.


The comic is subtitled "Song of Solomon", so I think it's a pretty fair bet.

----------


## lord_khaine

> New Offering
> ...you were saying?


If you did not listen to me the first time, then i guess i need to repeat myself?
Im saying its extremely silly to assume Solomon David is involved, just because something involves Ki Rata. 
And that does not change just because following evidence then makes it more likely that this is SD's background story.




> I am 92.07% convinced now this is a Solomon origin story. Doesn't need to be true though.
> Still do not know how it connects with Incubus friend, but he will get there.


The friend is likely to be Maya, who also gave up focus on winning to instead just wanting to survive.
Im still not certain why the lesson her should not be "dont teach Ki Rata to people who had their entire life burned down" though.

But it could explain why Solomon only has sons now. If he has daughters in the old life that was burned by a random warlord.
Would like to see how his fight with Yemmod went though.

----------


## Eldan

Okay, this one made me laugh. I may be a bad person.

Also, I can't hear "cycle of violence" without thinking of this comic:
https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/a-vicious-cycle

----------


## Iruka

I like to think that SD made the monks head explode just by flexing his biceps.

----------


## Spacewolf

Oh I just noticed that the location of the Flashback looks to be from the same location and perspective as the the shot from Solomons palace that shows the Colosseum being constructed. He even mentions the sun being destroyed.

----------


## Aquillion

I like that Solomon's story is pretty much just "yep, cycles of violence lead to more violence", while Incubus' takeaway from it is "he needs to use _more_ violence!"

Then again, I get the impression that Incubus finds Solomon's goals hilarious; Incubus recognizes that using violence to try and create the perfect state is never going to work, but he doesn't _care_ - he thinks Solomon should just grow up and be a depraved god-king.

Also, this is why Maya pisses him off, since walking away from power over that paradox goes against Incubus' entire philosophy.  And, of course, it's amusing that the Demiurge who is most obsessed with victory-for-its-own-sake and hear-the-lamentations-of-their-women is the only one who didn't actually win his key.

----------


## Onyavar

Oh, look who brought baskets of special apples to a meeting ot the concordance.

The seating of Solomon makes me wonder though, maybe he thinks himself in a position to claim a conditional overlordship.
With Mammon and Mottom so weak, and Jagganoth not there...

----------


## Eldan

Mammon's looking good, though. More alert. See, I _said_ I was hoping someone would shake him out of his stupor. Though he also seems smaller. 

The word _Diamond_ makes ever more sense for Solomon. He's preserving a destroyed past.

Edit: did Mammon just breathe fire at Mottom? There's flames everywhere pointing away from him.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

For a moment I thought this was a picture of the past, then I remembered that Solomon did call a concordance. 

Mammon does not look amused.

----------


## Iruka

> Mammon's looking good, though. More alert. See, I _said_ I was hoping someone would shake him out of his stupor. Though he also seems smaller. 
> 
> The word _Diamond_ makes ever more sense for Solomon. He's preserving a destroyed past.
> 
> Edit: did Mammon just breathe fire at Mottom? There's flames everywhere pointing away from him.


From the still glowing and smoking marks on Mammon, I assume Mottom hit him with a fireball. Makes you alert in even the most boring staff meeting!

----------


## Olinser

> From the still glowing and smoking marks on Mammon, I assume Mottom hit him with a fireball. Makes you alert in even the most boring staff meeting!


Yes, and there is specifically fire coming out of Mottom's wand, so yeah I'm assuming Mottom is the source of the fire.

----------


## Eldan

> From the still glowing and smoking marks on Mammon, I assume Mottom hit him with a fireball. Makes you alert in even the most boring staff meeting!


Doesn't his skin just do that? Those burning gaps at his neck are very regular.

----------


## Iruka

> Doesn't his skin just do that? Those burning gaps at his neck are very regular.



Looks like you are right, he apparently starts to glow when drawing on his power.

----------


## Narkis

I don't know who threw the fire, but Gog-Agog is having the time of his (hers? its?) life.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

I do find it amusing that Solomon's dreadlocks moved from the top of his head to his chin.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Eldan

> I do find it amusing that Solomon's dreadlocks moved from the top of his head to his chin.


Someone suggested in the comments that his hair rotated around his head as he got older, which immediately made me want to see fan art where all his hair is just standing out horizontally from one temple and cheek.

----------


## Onyavar

When I first looked at the scene this morning, it really looked strangely amicably, despite Mottom and Mammon both present.

I obviously didn't look hard enough. I think that Mammon was breathing the fire towards Mottom (it flows past Solomon in the penultimate panel), bot Mottom somehow shielded herself with her wand - or her servants wouldn't be so unmoved.

There is nothing like a board meeting where two executives are fireballing each other, while to others just let it happen and a fifth one laughs like a derwish. I'm starting to think that Gog-Agog is the trickster "deity" in Throne's "pantheon".




> The seating of Solomon makes me wonder though, maybe he thinks himself in a position to claim a conditional overlordship.
> With Mammon and Mottom so weak, and Jagganoth not there...


Edit: I was missing many more details: The big "ON" symbol isn't on Solomon's throne, but on the pedestal right behind him, belonging to Ysun's throne. And Mottom isn't sitting. She is perched on her chair, like ready to jump the table.

----------


## slayerx

> I like that Solomon's story is pretty much just "yep, cycles of violence lead to more violence", while Incubus' takeaway from it is "he needs to use _more_ violence!"
> 
> Then again, I get the impression that Incubus finds Solomon's goals hilarious; Incubus recognizes that using violence to try and create the perfect state is never going to work, but he doesn't _care_ - he thinks Solomon should just grow up and be a depraved god-king.
> 
> Also, this is why Maya pisses him off, since walking away from power over that paradox goes against Incubus' entire philosophy.  And, of course, it's amusing that the Demiurge who is most obsessed with victory-for-its-own-sake and hear-the-lamentations-of-their-women is the only one who didn't actually win his key.


Not really. The point of solomon's story is the fact that simply surviving wasn't enough. Solomon SURVIVED Yemmond's attack but he LOST everything that matter to him and ended up watching millions suffer and saw an entire world die... Solomon chose to change that by fighting back, taking back what was lost and rebuilding. However, he' hasn't really won yet. The other Demiurges are still a threat to the "eternal" empire he built and he's unsatisfied with his current way of life. The only way for Solomon to be truly satisfied is to secure the safety of his world and allow himself to live the life he wants to live, and the only way to do that, is to "win"

And we can apply this to Allison as well. She says that all she's wants to do is survive, but what if Mottom found out which universe she came from. Mottom would conquer earth, enslave its people, and the strip the planet bare until there was nothing left. If that were to happen, would Allison really be content with simply "surviving". Incubus is basically telling her that the only way to protect what she cares about and live the way she wants is to beat all of the other demiurges that could threaten her, raise herself to a point where she would be impossible to challenge and "win"

IN the case of Maya, in incubus's eyes, she basically chose survival over victory. As he sees it, all it resulted in is her becoming nothing more than a fat drunk who is simply wandering around and wasting away. She took herself out of the game, she's still lives, but she's got nothing to show for it. It could be the case that he once cared for her and admired her and it pisses him off to see how far she's fallen; a case of severe dissappointment. Though what i think pisses him off is that the other demiurges seem to still give her more respect than they ever afforded him. I imagine there was a difference in how they both earned their godhood; Maya may have won it through blood and battle while Incubus may have just picked up her key after she discarded it which is why the other king's don't feel like he earned his throne

----------


## mystic1110

I think an important lesson from Incubus is revealed from his phrase "to Rule". As he sees it Ruling is merely the same as walking away - Ruling is just like surviving as well. It is a distraction from winning. Winning, it seems like, means Winning - just like power means power from OOTS. If you are trying to win to Rule, or trying to win to Survive, or to win to Protect you are fooling yourself - winning is its own goal. As such, the way I read it is that for Incubus both Maya and Solomon are "losers" in the sense that their goal was not victory itself. Obviously, he is still trying to use her - but it speaks to his mindset and aim to restart a war and even let the universe be destroyed - he has no goal other than to win over everyone else and if the universe had to die to allow him to win so be it.

----------


## Eldan

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion, with the operative word, I think, being motion. To work towards victory is to cut, to rule after winning is to stay still.

----------


## Iruka

> Royalty is a continuous cutting motion, with the operative word, I think, being motion. To work towards victory is to cut, to rule after winning is to stay still.


I was about to say that. Continuous is just as important. It never stops.

Divison is the holy concept, not Having Two Separate Things.

----------


## Eldan

Feels very Conan, in a way. A new conqueror arises in the barbarian steppes, and conquer the weak, settled people. The conqueror rules, and becomes pampered and weak by living in civilization. And so a new conqueror arises in the barbarian steppes...

----------


## mystic1110

I think it's important to remember that Solomon is not pampered. He is also not stupid - he knows that ruling is not the same as achieving royalty - that's why he so desperately wants to give up ruling. But ruling creates responsibilities that are hard to give up. I think this is where our morality biases come into play - not that there's anything wrong with our morality - we want our rulers to care, to feel beholden to their subjects, but apparently, such laudable virtues are not the way to Royalty.

----------


## Spacewolf

I wonder if Inc might be meaning that SD isn't able to let go of his past as well, he doesn't have Female children because it reminds him of his first family, he doesn't like tech because that was what destroyed his world, he's not able to leave his throne to do what he wants because he can't find someone suitable.

----------


## Aquillion

> Mammon's looking good, though. More alert. See, I _said_ I was hoping someone would shake him out of his stupor. Though he also seems smaller.


I wonder if he took or was given one of Mottom's peaches?  If she's realized things are going down, she might have decided that they need him in proper working order.

----------


## lord_khaine

Heh.. just look at SD's face though. Thats a guy who are sick and tired of teaching Kindergarden.
But who cant find anyone else to take over so he can leave and become a rock musician.

----------


## Leewei

> Heh.. just look at SD's face though. Thats a guy who are sick and tired of teaching Kindergarden.
> But who cant find anyone else to take over so he can leave and become a rock musician.


Hahahaha!  Brilliant!

----------


## slayerx

> I think an important lesson from Incubus is revealed from his phrase "to Rule". As he sees it Ruling is merely the same as walking away - Ruling is just like surviving as well. It is a distraction from winning. Winning, it seems like, means Winning - just like power means power from OOTS. If you are trying to win to Rule, or trying to win to Survive, or to win to Protect you are fooling yourself - winning is its own goal. As such, the way I read it is that for Incubus both Maya and Solomon are "losers" in the sense that their goal was not victory itself. Obviously, he is still trying to use her - but it speaks to his mindset and aim to restart a war and even let the universe be destroyed - he has no goal other than to win over everyone else and if the universe had to die to allow him to win so be it.


I don't think that's what he's getting at. Pursuing victory just for the sake of victory sounds pointless and right now Incubus is trying to convince Allison that she needs to pursue victory. Trying to convince her to achieve a pointless goal is not a very convincing argument. This is why i would think his lesson was that simply surviving is not enough as it could mean losing everything else. Only way to get everything she wans, is to win by beating everyone else

----------


## Olinser

> I don't think that's what he's getting at. Pursuing victory just for the sake of victory sounds pointless and right now Incubus is trying to convince Allison that she needs to pursue victory. Trying to convince her to achieve a pointless goal is not a very convincing argument. This is why i would think his lesson was that simply surviving is not enough as it could mean losing everything else. Only way to get everything she wans, is to win by beating everyone else


Nah, Incubus is basically relating the piece of old wisdom, "Wanting is better than having".

Incubus has fun conquering and laying waste. He doesn't conquer because he actually wants to rule or own anything. He just likes conquering and pillaging. He can't even imagine trying to RULE the worlds he conquers.

But Solomon does, and is convinced he's some benevolent god king that deserves to rule everything, and Incubus is laughing at Solomon because he's never going to succeed.

----------


## JavaScribe

> Pursuing victory just for the sake of victory sounds pointless and right now Incubus is trying to convince Allison that she needs to pursue victory. Trying to convince her to achieve a pointless goal is not a very convincing argument.


Well yes. It is completely pointless. The second conquest was also pretty pointless, as is much of what the demiurges do. All of the demiurges are completely mad, and I suspect that this is the form that Incubus's madness takes.

----------


## lord_khaine

> But Solomon does, and is convinced he's some benevolent god king that deserves to rule everything, and Incubus is laughing at Solomon because he's never going to succeed.


Nahh.. Solomon has straight up expressed the opposite. He does not want to rule at all. 
He is actively looking for someone else to to take over. Its just unfortunately hard to find. 

But he is a benevolent god king though. 
Or well. Of those 3 its only the god bit that can really be contested. As he is not true royalty.
But he is benevolent. He clearly does want the best for his subjects. 
And he is powerful enough to call himself King, Emperor, Chieftain or whatever else he pleases  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Olinser

> Nahh.. Solomon has straight up expressed the opposite. He does not want to rule at all. 
> He is actively looking for someone else to to take over. Its just unfortunately hard to find. 
> 
> But he is a benevolent god king though. 
> Or well. Of those 3 its only the god bit that can really be contested. As he is not true royalty.
> But he is benevolent. He clearly does want the best for his subjects. 
> And he is powerful enough to call himself King, Emperor, Chieftain or whatever else he pleases


The 'doesn't want to rule but HAS to until they find somebody worthy' is a cliche so bad that it has its own trope https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p.../RegentForLife

It's the same lie that dictators throughout the history of the world have used dozens of times.

They never 'want' to rule. They just HAVE to because nobody else is good enough or they're just stopping EVIL PERSON X from ruling! And they make increasingly ridiculous excuses the longer they are in power.

'Hard to find'? That's just laughable. He's ruled over 111,111 worlds for thousands of years or more. Even arguing they're less populus than Earth still means that you're looking at minimum BILLIONS (and arguably TRILLIONS) of different individuals. ZOSS found a replacement in relatively short order.

No no, I just overthrew the previous ruler for the GOOD OF THE PEOPLE. I will just rule until the child heir of the ruler I overthrew is grown up enough to take the throne. What's that? They're of age? No no I disagree, they're still clearly too inexperienced to rule, and can't possibly be as wise as myself, they need more instruction! Oh? They're 30 years old? No, what I've seen is that he spent too much time being corrupted by the previous regime, he's not fit to rule, I must continue ruling for the GOOD OF THE PEOPLE. What's that? Parliament is demanding I step down? They're clearly working against the best interests of this country and I'll have to dissolve them for the good of the country. What's that? People are demanding their right to elect representatives? They're too ignorant to understand what's in their own interest, I have a RESPONSIBILITY TO THE PEOPLE to personally appoint only people that have the best interests of the country at heart, common people can't be trusted with elections! The common people are demanding I step aside for the rightful heir? I can't do that, Parliament has held a trial and declared him a traitor, they represent the WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

He's already doing it with Zaid. He's raising him to 'take over'. Take it to the bank, Zaid is never going to be good enough or ready enough to 'take over', he's Solomon's excuse.

If Solomon actually manages to defeat Allison, he'll declare Zaid 'unready' for bearing the King of Kings, and take it himself 'for safekeeping', until he's 'ready'.

Solomon is just like all the others, and as a couple people have pointed out, WORSE, because he still claims to be a hero.

----------


## Onyavar

> The 'doesn't want to rule but HAS to until they find somebody worthy' is a cliche so bad that it has its own trope https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p.../RegentForLife


What? The description of Solomons problem here (one person clings to absolute power forever) is similar to RegentForLife, but the circumstances are so different that it should be a different trope.

First, Solomon's not regent, he is Emperor. By might, not right, but that's splitting hairs. None of the other four demiurges we learned about has been "the rightful heir". Solomon doesn't administrate in lieu of someone incapable. Better, he has literally conquered and built his dominion by himself. Also, there has not been a designated heir or crown prince so far, until Zaid came along. And it's rather obvious that the boy has no experience in administration, wisdom or combat. Compared to your average demiurge, Zaid might as well be a toddler.

Second, this "Regent for Life" is immortal. He can rule indefinitely, and is justified in thinking he has all time in the worlds to find the perfect heir. He has even laid out a pretty simple rule for the requirements. Once they are met, he has promised to step down. The trope "RulerForLife" would apply if Solomon broke his own promise, but he has yet to be shown dishonorable.

Third, there are other immortal rulers out there, who are not only willing and able to depose whoever Solomon appoints to take over his empire. Worse, these other rulers are so mad they will cheer while they destroy everything he has built up so far. Solomon would be quite right in thinking that if he handed his power to Zaid right now, he could as well feed his worlds into the big grinder himself.

Finally, he really doesn't want to rule. Why should he feign his unhappiness about it? But, he feels obligated to carry the burden, knowing the alternative.


So, if I may compare to another comic, Solomon is more like a mixture of Albia (Immortal empress) and Klaus Wulfenbach (built his empire from utter chaos; constantly tested his son to the limits to ensure capability in leadership) than like "RegentForLife".


Solomon IS really in a bind here, and I can feel sympathy with his problem. He really is a hero, in my opinion.
What he is not though: A ruler. He should want to inspire his people to greatness, critical thinking and independency. Instead, he micromanages and steps heavily down in order to be the good dictator that he really isn't.

----------


## Olinser

> What? The description of Solomons problem here (one person clings to absolute power forever) is similar to RegentForLife, but the circumstances are so different that it should be a different trope.
> 
> First, Solomon's not regent, he is Emperor. By might, not right, but that's splitting hairs. None of the other four demiurges we learned about has been "the rightful heir". Solomon doesn't administrate in lieu of someone incapable. Better, he has literally conquered and built his dominion by himself. Also, there has not been a designated heir or crown prince so far, until Zaid came along. And it's rather obvious that the boy has no experience in administration, wisdom or combat. Compared to your average demiurge, Zaid might as well be a toddler.
> 
> Second, this "Regent for Life" is immortal. He can rule indefinitely, and is justified in thinking he has all time in the worlds to find the perfect heir. He has even laid out a pretty simple rule for the requirements. Once they are met, he has promised to step down. The trope "RulerForLife" would apply if Solomon broke his own promise, but he has yet to be shown dishonorable.
> 
> Third, there are other immortal rulers out there, who are not only willing and able to depose whoever Solomon appoints to take over his empire. Worse, these other rulers are so mad they will cheer while they destroy everything he has built up so far. Solomon would be quite right in thinking that if he handed his power to Zaid right now, he could as well feed his worlds into the big grinder himself.
> 
> Finally, he really doesn't want to rule. Why should he feign his unhappiness about it? But, he feels obligated to carry the burden, knowing the alternative.
> ...


He's 'regent for life' because of his own words. He claims that he's not the true ruler and is just looking for somebody acceptable to take his place. Funny how he hasn't managed to find somebody in all the time he's ruled. It's almost like he's not really looking.

The point is, that despite his BS, Solomon WILL NEVER step down, EVER. He'll always have an excuse as to why nobody is quite good enough to replace him. Because his sin is Pride. 

He's 'obligated to carry the burden' because of his pride and vanity. Stepping down for somebody else would require him to admit that they are better than he is. He will never do that.

Again, take it to the bank. If Solomon actually encounters Allison, he's going to try and take the Key himself. He'll make some BS excuse and possibly a speech about how the Heir (Zaid), isn't worthy to rule, and Solomon has to safeguard the Key of Kings until he's 'ready'. Which will never happen. I agree, Zaid would never be acceptable, what little we've seen of him says that he's a minor scumbag. But again, Zaid is just the excuse. It doesn't matter WHO it was, they would never be worthy to replace Solomon.

----------


## Onyavar

*Spoiler: About the sins*
Show

I'm not so sure anymore if the seven sins really apply to the demiurges straight away. Please prove me wrong, but if I remember the pages of the comic so far, and also the tumblr account, there has been no word of god, and no straight attribution of the sins to the demiurges, right? Sure, it's mentioned in the wiki (a fan-maintained thing!), and it made totally sense when all we knew were the appearances of the seven at their void concordance. Yet, in-comic, the demiurges themselves have been associated by the author with other things: Their titles, their favorite colors, and the symbols of diamond, sword, tower etc. And if I remember correctly, all attempts of us fans even to sort out the canonical symbols on our own, have failed.

Yep, Solomon comes across as a prideful s-o-b, and he wears royal purple of all things. But I wouldn't bank on his character being ultimately and singularly built around the "Oh I am so pride" trait. After all, Mottom and all her actions are defined by fear, not gluttony - yes, her court has been incredibly wasteful and could be said to be gluttonous. But sloth could also apply to Mottom. Likewise, Mammon is a possessive hoarder, but we have witnessed another side in him. He was haunted by the spirits of his past and future year-end-festivities. In the most recent comic, Mammon and Mottom actually have overcome their "sin" traits if they ever had them.
Next, Incubus. He hasn't been a lustful creep so far, instead he is a scheming dreamwalking creep. Does he satisfy lust in others? Yeaaaah, but "Lust for Success" is really stretching the sin of the flesh into a wholly different topic. If I had to destribute the sins with what we know today, I would say that Incubus and his motives are best defined by envy, not lust.
And we don't even know yet what the deal is with Gog-Agog, Jadis and Jagganoth.


On another note, Solomon appears to have looked for an heir, but so far, he didn't have a prophecy to believe in. With young Zaid now, he has, and he has taken great interest. On the walk to his coliseum, he even explained his reasoning to Zaid. Why should Abbadon waste two whole pages on hypocritic lies?

But, in a way, I think you will be proven right, in a way. Solomon will not step down voluntarily, but only because Zaid is not the true heir. If Zaid would have ten years of training like Allison currently gets, and if Zaid would subsequently beat Solomon in his ridiculous challenge: I think that Solomon would resign, yes. But this is hypothetical. Won't happen. Ever.
My guess is that, when they meet, Solomon will be a misogynist and refuse to accept Allison as true eligible heir of Zoss. If so, you could even read it as "male pride", and be correct in your analysis above.

Now, the current concordance meeting is awkward. Mottom wants revenge from Allison; Mammon wants payback for his tower. Solomon has stolen the false heir, but wants to broker a peace. Incubus and Jagganoth have specifically plotted for the current war and are absent for good reason. Like the absentees, Mottom and Jadis know that Allison is the true heir, so Solomon is lacking vital information. Mammon has been out of the loop a lot, so I wonder how effective he can be in the meeting anyway. Meanwhile, Jadis knows ALL, and can use her knowledge against all the others, but she doesn't strike me as a big schemer. Gog-Agog does, but they don't need to do a thing to get their kick in this situation.

(But also, this is not the most predictable of comics. You can't really guess what happens next - the long-term consequences are usually plain and visible, but not the short-term twists.)

----------


## lord_khaine

> He's 'regent for life' because of his own words. He claims that he's not the true ruler and is just looking for somebody acceptable to take his place. Funny how he hasn't managed to find somebody in all the time he's ruled. It's almost like he's not really looking.
> 
> The point is, that despite his BS, Solomon WILL NEVER step down, EVER. He'll always have an excuse as to why nobody is quite good enough to replace him. Because his sin is Pride.
> 
> He's 'obligated to carry the burden' because of his pride and vanity. Stepping down for somebody else would require him to admit that they are better than he is. He will never do that.


Have you though about, that the only things supporting these statements are bias against SD?
We lack any sort of evidence on him actually getting any sort of pleasure from ruling. And have direct evidence to the direct opposite, that he would rather try and focus on leveling up.

And why should handing over rulership require him to admit that they are better than him at anything? We see this in a lot of other places, like when one monarch decides to retire, and hands over the crown to a heir.
What really stops SD from deciding "Zach, your newer going to be as good as me, but your good enough to run this without making it crash and burn. Here is the crown, im off for the beach" ?

We directly see this reflected in the tournament. The winning condition isnt to defeat SD. All you have to do is to draw a single drop of his blood. 
Thats just an extremely tall order, as he is around the 3rd or 4th strongest person in creation.

----------


## Eldan

I think the sins still fit pretty well, if one takes a broader definition of them than the modern pop culture one. Luxuria, the original lust, is not necessarily sexual. It any desire for anything that is too strong. Money and power are explicitely named in older sources and of course the author of this webcomic would go look at those older sources. Incubus explicitely seeks out the Lustful and gives them their wishes. 

Gluttony, similarly, isn't necessarily food. It's overconsumption in general. Taking more than you need, so that nothing is left over for others. 

Pride is interesting. Superbia is in one definition more like hubris, thinking that one knows better than god or the gods. BUt a part of it is also not seeing the accomplishments of others, only one's own. And of course, overstimating one's own accomplishments and forgetting one's flaws.


I don't know, they all fit pretty well.

----------


## Onyavar

> I think the sins still fit pretty well, if one takes a broader definition of them than the modern pop culture one. Luxuria, the original lust, is not necessarily sexual. It any desire for anything that is too strong. Money and power are explicitely named in older sources and of course the author of this webcomic would go look at those older sources. Incubus explicitely seeks out the Lustful and gives them their wishes. 
> 
> Gluttony, similarly, isn't necessarily food. It's overconsumption in general. Taking more than you need, so that nothing is left over for others. 
> 
> Pride is interesting. Superbia is in one definition more like hubris, thinking that one knows better than god or the gods. BUt a part of it is also not seeing the accomplishments of others, only one's own. And of course, overstimating one's own accomplishments and forgetting one's flaws.
> 
> I don't know, they all fit pretty well.


True, they fit. I played a bit with the topic and put them down as follows. In case of the bolded ones I found the arguments very compelling.

*Incubus*: *Envy* (He just isn't lustful. But if you pay attention, he is deviously seeking to ruin others, deprive them of their possessions and drag them into the mud. He may not want things for himself, he just can't abide that others have something good. That is the definition of malicious envy.
*Mottom*: *Sloth* (in the form of cowardice and apathy. She was living in fear of her own courtiers, and all her acts so far have been a reaction to the acts of others)
_Gog Agog: Lust_? (No backstory yet, they are the demiurge we know the least about. But still they have been described as being really large in the "entertainment business" on Throne, and we have seen them surrounded by beauty attendants)
_Solomon: Wrath_? (We just learned what his original motivation has been: seeking revenge. We have seen him obliterating his head monk's head in a fit of rage. Sure, he seems like the cool guy, but I'd say he has a temper. In the rare cases he flips out, people die.)
_Jagganoth: Gluttony_? (No backstory yet, so this is speculation. But we _have_ seen him in the shape of an overweight brute... and gluttony is also related to selfishness, which might fit the character although we know so little about him. Could be that he realized that he needed to work out in order to grow and devour even more.)
*Iadis*: *Pride*. (In an act of Hubris, she gazed at the true shape of the universe which made her insane)
*Mammon*: *Greed*. (very straightforward: it just fits him best. Until we know more, that is.)

*Spoiler: Also, some unrelated backstory speculation:*
Show

Incubus is seen as the placeholder of Maya, and it rankles with him. But we already know that there were many more demiurges. We learned how Solomon dealt with two others. So, what about the rest of the competition? I have just thought, that it could well be that Incubus was already a demiurge under Zoss (this recap flashback backs it up, although it looks like a symbol picture only showing the surviving demiurges). What if Incubus has been playing the grey eminence before, pretending to be just a minor competition? What if the other demiurges have seen him just as Maya's lackey... when in reality, he was the driving force behind Maya's ambition to build up the middle army? Until, at one point, they had a falling out: Either he pushed Maya too far, or she finally saw through his schemes. However, she as his figurehead, brought up the willpower to abandon him; and because she was such a powerful player in the demiurge business, the others never accepted that Incubus who was officially just her "right hand man", finally took the throne that was "hers". I think this speculation fits the story we have been told so far.

----------


## gbs5009

> Have you though about, that the only things supporting these statements are bias against SD?
> We lack any sort of evidence on him actually getting any sort of pleasure from ruling. And have direct evidence to the direct opposite, that he would rather try and focus on leveling up.
> 
> And why should handing over rulership require him to admit that they are better than him at anything? We see this in a lot of other places, like when one monarch decides to retire, and hands over the crown to a heir.
> What really stops SD from deciding "Zach, your newer going to be as good as me, but your good enough to run this without making it crash and burn. Here is the crown, im off for the beach" ?
> 
> We directly see this reflected in the tournament. The winning condition isnt to defeat SD. All you have to do is to draw a single drop of his blood. 
> Thats just an extremely tall order, as he is around the 3rd or 4th strongest person in creation.




It's also worth pointing out that Solomon David's concern that, without his badassery protecting the realm, the other Demiurges would conquer them, strikes me as a perfectly valid concern.  They have a history of doing that sort of thing.  

He's basically a wartime army, embodied in a single individual.  Even if he formally turned over formal power to a democratically elected parliament or whatever, he'd still be effectively in charge because he can move the sun.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

If this is called diplomacy I don't want to see what they call war.  :Small Eek:

----------


## Eldan

> True, they fit. I played a bit with the topic and put them down as follows. In case of the bolded ones I found the arguments very compelling.
> 
> *Incubus*: *Envy* (He just isn't lustful. But if you pay attention, he is deviously seeking to ruin others, deprive them of their possessions and drag them into the mud. He may not want things for himself, he just can't abide that others have something good. That is the definition of malicious envy.
> *Mottom*: *Sloth* (in the form of cowardice and apathy. She was living in fear of her own courtiers, and all her acts so far have been a reaction to the acts of others)
> _Gog Agog: Lust_? (No backstory yet, they are the demiurge we know the least about. But still they have been described as being really large in the "entertainment business" on Throne, and we have seen them surrounded by beauty attendants)
> _Solomon: Wrath_? (We just learned what his original motivation has been: seeking revenge. We have seen him obliterating his head monk's head in a fit of rage. Sure, he seems like the cool guy, but I'd say he has a temper. In the rare cases he flips out, people die.)
> _Jagganoth: Gluttony_? (No backstory yet, so this is speculation. But we _have_ seen him in the shape of an overweight brute... and gluttony is also related to selfishness, which might fit the character although we know so little about him. Could be that he realized that he needed to work out in order to grow and devour even more.)
> *Iadis*: *Pride*. (In an act of Hubris, she gazed at the true shape of the universe which made her insane)
> *Mammon*: *Greed*. (very straightforward: it just fits him best. Until we know more, that is.)


Oh, true. A lot of them fit several sins. I mean, Mottom is also clearly wrathful. 

The interesting thing about Incubus, I think, is that he is not lustful himself, he instead has lustful followers. In fact, I can't really tell what his sin would be at all. His dream mask would be pride, perhaps, but that's a mask. His real life persona might be closer to envy, yes. Or wrath, again. He seems very, very angry.

----------


## lord_khaine

> It's also worth pointing out that Solomon David's concern that, without his badassery protecting the realm, the other Demiurges would conquer them, strikes me as a perfectly valid concern. They have a history of doing that sort of thing.
> He's basically a wartime army, embodied in a single individual. Even if he formally turned over formal power to a democratically elected parliament or whatever, he'd still be effectively in charge because he can move the sun.


Yeah.. Incubus has more or less straight up confirmed thats whom they are, and what they do.

And of course, it gets worse in that we have the 2nd/3rd strongest individual in all of reality, actively wanting to destroy everything.
Without a demi-urge level succesor, it is very likely that everything will go up in flames the moment SD steps down.

----------


## lord_khaine

New Offering

Well.. seems the war stew cant be allowed to cool down to far as long as Incubus is around. 
Things would likely cool down a little if Maya could be convinced to come back and kick him off the throne. 
Just a shame thats a really uncomfortable place to sit.

----------


## Hamsandlich

> New Offering
> 
> Well.. seems the war stew cant be allowed to cool down to far as long as Incubus is around. 
> Things would likely cool down a little if Maya could be convinced to come back and kick him off the throne. 
> Just a shame thats a really uncomfortable place to sit.


Given this page, its possible Maya was partially responsible for starting the War in the first place. Who does that figure in the second to last panel remind you of...

----------


## lord_khaine

> Given this page, its possible Maya was partially responsible for starting the War in the first place. Who does that figure in the second to last panel remind you of...


Well.. its certainly not impossible.
At the same time though, according to legend, the two demi-urges who began the war is dead.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

oh _no_

Gog-Agog has _clowns_. 

Can we start this extermination war?

----------


## Tom Tearcamel

I like to imagine that Incubis was the 1st one there, and has been hiding in the shadow of the throne the whole time, waiting for SD to give him a good entry line. 

Seems that all the sycophants (except 0001 and Gog Agogs ICP) fear his very presence.

Unless they havent seen him yet, and are just weary of the conflict between their gods in the last strip...

----------


## lord_khaine

I think the next page will reveal if he was hiding or just arriving late. 
But it does seem rather clear that what the followers react to is the escalating violence.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

> I think the next page will reveal if he was hiding or just arriving late. 
> But it does seem rather clear that what the followers react to is the escalating violence.


I too would get nervous if multiple Demiurges were angry.

----------


## Hamsandlich

> I like to imagine that Incubis was the 1st one there, and has been hiding in the shadow of the throne the whole time, waiting for SD to give him a good entry line. 
> 
> Seems that all the sycophants (except 0001 and Gog Agogs ICP) fear his very presence.
> 
> Unless they havent seen him yet, and are just weary of the conflict between their gods in the last strip...


There was a half-joking post on Abbadon's tumblr that Jagganoth does this all the time by accident, teleporting to the meeting place way too early and feeling kinda awkward that nobody was around to hear his "I HAVE ARRIVED, PUNY INSECTS" entrance, and hiding behind one of the dead god's corpses waiting for everyone else to arrive so gets another chance to make a sufficiently intimidating entrance. 

Awkwardness sorta makes sense given that he was never properly socialized. His omnicidal ambitions can be interpreted as him being unable to deal with his emotions(in this case, god-level PTSD and a complete lack of healthy relationships) in a non-destructive manner.

----------


## lord_khaine

Im pretty certain thats more a result of him being used as a puppet by 2nd Michael

https://killsixbilliondemons.com/com...of-names-4-76/

----------


## Hamsandlich

> Im pretty certain thats more a result of him being used as a puppet by 2nd Michael
> 
> https://killsixbilliondemons.com/com...of-names-4-76/


Whatever angel (like Metatron 1) used Jagganoth did so by manipulating his PTSD

----------


## lord_khaine

Where the heck does the idea of PTSD come from?
He is a victorious demi-urge, among the 7 strongest people in all of reality. 
If fighting was not to his taste, then there are just about nothing that could be done to stop him from simple wandering away like Maya did. 
But instead he stayed to the end. So its much more likely that things simply is as Motom said. That he liked the fighting, and disliked peace. 

And i also suspect its more likely 2nd Micheal. Simply because Metatron cant move around. 
Or well the feathers could have come from Metatron.

----------


## mystic1110

> Where the heck does the idea of PTSD come from?


From the Author

----------


## Tom Tearcamel

Post from the other tumblr made me laugh so hard.
Game night with Dave

----------


## rooster707

And then Incubus shows up an _hour_ late, and he didn't even bring any snacks...

----------


## Hamsandlich

> From the Author


*Other collected facts about Pankrator Jagganoth, divined from the unknowable conceptual abyss of Abbadon's tumblr:
*
He's as powerful as the rest of the Seven combined

He's way smarter than he looks

Despite his immense size, he's human

The intensity of his body heat can boil people alive

He refrains from launching his omnicidal crusade against everyone and everything not because he's afraid of being killed by the rest of the Seven, but because he doesn't want to risk them finding a way to imprison him and undo all his hard work, forcing him to build up his forces again.

He alone among the Seven has never known love of any kind (platonic, familial, romantic etc.)

He was raised as a child soldier in something called a Corpse Legion, wherein the soldiers undergo psychological conditioning to consider themselves already dead.

His mask (elephant-skull-thing) represents his self-image

His portion of the multiverse is the least populated amongst the Seven's respective domains because he's purged it of all life deemed unnecessary for the future war effort

If the Seven actually were to play a table-top RPG, he'd min-max his character 

*Fallible conjecture, conjured from the fevered, undoubtedly false imagination of  this humble poster:*

The fact that his mask is the way he perceives his true self seems to imply that he views himself as a monster only good for destroying things.

He rammed one of the Angel's Nails into his left eyesocket, this is why only his right eye glows with power

He views the multiverse as inherently and irrevocably corrupt as a result of his experiences during the Multiversal War

----------


## lord_khaine

Well fair then, i was not aware so much of the tumbler failed to make it to the wiki.

----------


## Hamsandlich

New Offering.

BUT NOW, THERE IS JAGGANOTH

----------


## Hamsandlich

Also, looks like my theory about his left eye is kaput

----------


## Eldan

> Also, looks like my theory about his left eye is kaput


You can not tell a king that his eye can't glow just because there's a nail in it.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

Jadis doesn't seem to like Incubus a lot.

----------


## Narkis

> Jadis doesn't seem to like Incubus a lot.


They all seem to grudgingly tolerate him, at best. No wonder he betrayed them. I wonder what they have against him in particular though.

----------


## lord_khaine

Not that his behavior really entice anyone to like him.

----------


## JavaScribe

> They all seem to grudgingly tolerate him, at best. No wonder he betrayed them. I wonder what they have against him in particular though.


They don't seem to respect the way he took his throne, I guess they feel he didn't earn it? Certainly doesn't help that he's pretty crazy even by demiurge standards.

----------


## lord_khaine

I suspect the problem is he did not take his throne.
He was given it when Maya just randomly vanished one day.

Thats likely the only way the other demi-urges would not respect. 
But yes, afterwards his erratic behavior has likely not helped him earn any further respect.

----------


## Eldan

Yeah. He did not Reach Heaven by Violence, he reached it by inheritance.

----------


## slayerx

I don't think so. "Stolen throne. Wicked ways"
That does not suggest an inherited throne, or picking up a crown that was abandoned. I imagine that Incubus pulled a pretty nasty trick in order to get his throne; even lower than stabbing your husband in his sleep. 

My guess right now is that maybe he had gained his power over dreams before he became a demiurge; like maybe it was a power he developed as an emissary for Maya. And just as he is able to spark people's ambitions so they can strengthen themselves, he can also dull their ambitions so they will ruin themselves. He dulled Maya's ambitions(a task that might have required her trust thus adding betrayal to the mix) which led to her abandoning her throne which he then took. Now THAT sounds like the kind of wicked trick the other demiurges would have no respect for.

----------


## mystic1110

> Yeah. He did not Reach Heaven by Violence, he reached it by inheritance.


Not quiet inheritance - more like salvage. Maya abandoned her throne and he essentially got squatter's rights.

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah alright, salvage, not inheritance is a likely explanation. 
He was likely the highest ranked advisor when Maya gave up. 

Because i dont think there is such a think as to nasty a trick for the demi-urges.
I mean, if he had managed to kill the ambition of someone without touching their body, then they would likely have baked him a welcome cake  :Small Big Grin: 

edit.
Reading though the story again.
Mammom bought his key. It makes me kinda certain that the only thing the demi-urges would not respect, is not having done anything.

----------


## Onyavar

> My guess right now is that maybe he had gained his power over dreams before he became a demiurge; like maybe it was a power he developed as an emissary for Maya. And just as he is able to spark people's ambitions so they can strengthen themselves, he can also dull their ambitions so they will ruin themselves. He dulled Maya's ambitions(a task that might have required her trust thus adding betrayal to the mix) which led to her abandoning her throne which he then took. Now THAT sounds like the kind of wicked trick the other demiurges would have no respect for.


Haven't thought of that before, but that's a good theory. My own one was that he was the one who helped Maya into her place, and then used her as a pawn until she was sick of that... but your idea is way more plausible.

Also, all these ideas don't spell out a good future for Allison unless she gets rid of Incubus for good.

Oh, and hey, maybe Incubus used to pester the other demiurges in their dreems, too? Now that's what I'd call a nuisance.




> Because i dont think there is such a think as too nasty a trick for the demi-urges.
> I mean, if he had managed to kill the ambition of someone without touching their body, then they would likely have baked him a welcome cake 
> 
> edit.
> Reading though the story again.
> Mammom bought his key. It makes me kinda certain that the only thing the demi-urges would not respect, is not having done anything.


Hmyeah, buying the key sounds pretty low. But we don't know how much he had to pay for that; and we don't know how large his key was, back then. It's quite possible, that it was just one of thousand keys back in the days, but Mammon tenaciously clung to it and acquired more and more of the universe. Like Solomon did, and they would respect that.

I'm rather curious how Mottom fared in the universal war. She doesn't look like the kind of guy to go on a conquering spree, but if she simply inherited from her husband AFTER he already conquered the 111111 worlds, there would be no respect for her, either.

But from all the backstories so far, the baseline requirements of becoming one of the seven lords of creation seem rather low. Especially if we compare with the temporarily successful conquerors who later fell prey to these seven victors.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

Mammon did kill his family and clan for his ambition, so the other demiurges might respect him for those actions.

----------


## Eldan

> Not quiet inheritance - more like salvage. Maya abandoned her throne and he essentially got squatter's rights.


I had assumed that he was something like her second in command. He seems quite familiar with her, and he's also the one who rebuilt her army.

Speaking of low baselines for becoming one of hte seven... they are referred to as corpse-gods, amongst other things. It's pretty important for the mood of the story that they aren't grand in any way, but that they rule decaying remnants. They aren't the great first generation demiurges who ravaged the multiverse with fire and steel to build giant empires. They are what's left after everyone else killed each other, squatting in the ruins.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

I just noticed that Incubus doesn't have a different coloured speech bubble. Wonder why that I didn't notice sooner.

----------


## Onyavar

> I just noticed that Incubus doesn't have a different coloured speech bubble. Wonder why that I didn't notice sooner.


I assumed it was because of the low contrast between his light pink color scheme, and white. And turning the base color around (light pink on black, similar to the speech schemas of Mammon and Jadis) would make him a lot more sinister and inhuman than intended?

----------


## Tom Tearcamel

I have always attributed the colored speech bubbles of the certain angles, demons, the 7 and sometimes their minions; as bits of their Power leaking into their voice, since the art is so concerned with the voice of its wielders. 

I think the fact that his speachbubble is vanilla may just mean he has better control over what he says.

That when he looses his cool talking to BIG CHUNGUS in https://killsixbilliondemons.com/com...-thrones-4-29/ and the text turns hot pink seems to validate the theory.

----------


## tyckspoon

> Speaking of low baselines for becoming one of hte seven... they are referred to as corpse-gods, amongst other things. It's pretty important for the mood of the story that they aren't grand in any way, but that they rule decaying remnants. They aren't the great first generation demiurges who ravaged the multiverse with fire and steel to build giant empires. They are what's left after everyone else killed each other, squatting in the ruins.


The two we've had focus on so far had absolutely lost their fire and their drive - Mottom and Mammon were just rotting in place, until Allison came along and shook them up. Eventually they probably would have been overturned by somebody else, if Allison hadn't happened or Jagganoth didn't succeed in burning everything down first. Solomon so far appears to be alright, but we've really just started looking into his deal, and we've already had Incubus state the argument that he's just as trapped and just as stale as the others - he's not decaying, maybe, but he's not advancing either. We don't know Jadis and Gog-Agog's deals yet, but it's a pretty safe bet they're going to have something preventing them from trying to improve themselves or striving for a bigger goal; and what we've seen so far of the philosophy of Royalty and power in this universe says that if you aren't trying to become more, you may as well be dead.

Jagganoth and Incubus at least have a plan and something they want to achieve, even if 'universal destruction' isn't a popular goal.

----------


## lord_khaine

I think its pretty unlikely that someone else would have managed to overturn any of the demi-urges.
Yes all of them are stuck in some fashion, living their happily ever after being busy ruling 1/7 of everything in creation. 
But they are also immensely powerful. Mottom gave us a pretty clear idea of that when she casually explained 
how her entire palace were constantly being held up by her force of will alone. 

And i think its unfair to state all the other demi-urges dont have their own goal.
Mammom did seem to have fallen into a senile state from his retirement. 

But Mottom were busy conquering new worlds to feed her empire. 
While SD is very clearly occupied either making a new generation of potential succecors, or managing squabbles between the 7.

----------


## mystic1110

By goal, I think it is meant none of them are trying to achieve Royalty anymore.

Mottom just wants to survive and her goal is to sustain her existence. Mammon is senile. Solomon wants to achieve Royalty but is too 'distracted' with Ruling his empire. Incubus knows the goal but lusts after the respect of the others. Jag understands the goal but wants to destroy the multi-universe instead. Jadis knows the goal and knows what happens when you achieve it - she knows everything and so just wants to die. Goggy . . . who the hell knows.

----------


## Onyavar

> Goggy . . . who the hell knows.


Gogs, just wanna have fu-un... gog... a-gog... They, just wanna have fun!


About the senility of Mammon, i'm rather certain that was the effect of being alone in his tower without social interactions. Once the tower was broken, he got better. Or so it seems.

----------


## Hamsandlich

New Offering

FATAL FIFTH FINGER

AKA PINKY OF DOOM

Good job Dave, you solved Zoss's diabolical table riddle.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

Gog-Agog heads lost during this council: 2.

----------


## rooster707

As a recently converted John Mulaney fan, I feel obligated to share this masterpiece from Abbadons Twitter:

*Spoiler*
Show

----------


## Hamsandlich

New Offering

HAIL THE CONQUEROR WORM

----------


## PraetorDragoon

> New Offering
> 
> HAIL THE CONQUEROR WORM


Why do I get the feeling that the others might want to call the Pact against Solomon? 

And Gog-Agog doesn't look amused.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well of course they would all love nothing more than doing so. 
SD tells them uncomfortable truths, and act like he is better than them (he is). 

The problem is he tells uncomfortable truths, and they know it. 
They do need everyone, and especially SD, if they want to have a chance of surviving when the Red God makes his move.

----------


## Eldan

The question, of course, is if they still need the pact if they ever happen to defeat the Red God for good.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

> The question, of course, is if they still need the pact if they ever happen to defeat the Red God for good.


I think they will pick it up. The status quo suits them well. 

Of course, the chances that the seven come out of the Third Conquest without problems is nil.

----------


## mystic1110

The Pact is already broken though. Incubus is working directly with the Red God.

----------


## Eldan

Yes, but I assume they don't know that.

----------


## Onyavar

> The Pact is already broken though. Incubus is working directly with the Red God.


The pact allows working together, just not turning against the others. As long as the next war has not yet started, all conspiring is legit.

...
But you're actually right, they are all guilty of undermining their pact. Solomon for buying Zaid. Mammon for selling Zaid. Mottom for attacking Mammon's fortress and Gog-Agog's face. Jadis for deliberately not correcting their assumptions. Jagganoth and Incubus for conspiring against the others. Finally, Gog-Agog is up to something, too.


Solomon probably assumes Jagganoth is going to be the big threat soon, although the pact isn't any less threatening for the rest, either.

But really, this can swing any way now.
My favorite guess: Goggie destroying Mottom with a single shot, then the others turning against Goggie. In a brawl, Goggie can escape easily - and join forces with "so-cool"-Allison. Don't know if this fits with Incubussie's plans.

----------


## Hamsandlich

Technically, 001 undermined the pact in Mammon's stead by selling Zaid, Mammon was busy being a Drampa back then

----------


## Olinser

> The pact allows working together, just not turning against the others. As long as the next war has not yet started, all conspiring is legit.
> 
> ...
> But you're actually right, they are all guilty of undermining their pact. Solomon for buying Zaid. Mammon for selling Zaid. Mottom for attacking Mammon's fortress and Gog-Agog's face. Jadis for deliberately not correcting their assumptions. Jagganoth and Incubus for conspiring against the others. Finally, Gog-Agog is up to something, too.
> 
> 
> Solomon probably assumes Jagganoth is going to be the big threat soon, although the pact isn't any less threatening for the rest, either.
> 
> But really, this can swing any way now.
> My favorite guess: Goggie destroying Mottom with a single shot, then the others turning against Goggie. In a brawl, Goggie can escape easily - and join forces with "so-cool"-Allison. Don't know if this fits with Incubussie's plans.


Yeah I don't believe Gog-Agog's act. Not for a second. A huge amount of it is an act to make the others estimate.... her? it? them? What's the proper way to refer to a teeming mass of worms? I'll go with 'it' for now.

Remember. Everybody in that room except Incubus and Mammon killed the previous bearers of their Key, conquered thousands of worlds, and has presumably survived a huge amount of attacks, battles and assassination attempts.

Not saying Gog-Agog isn't easily distracted with ADD, but a good portion of it is DEFINITELY an act, and a working one, as the others seem to regard Gog-Agog as a clown beneath their notice, while the author has explicitly said that even Jagganoth would have difficulty with Gog-Agog in combat and that it could be the strongest demiurge if it weren't for Gog's flights of fancy.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

> Jadis for deliberately not correcting their assumptions.


I don't think Jadis is capable of correcting their assumptions. At most we have seen her whisper things, and most of her bigger prophecies were interpreted by her priests.

----------


## lord_khaine

Personally i have a sneaking suspicion that Gog-agog did not kill a bearer of a key. 
It -ate- one after something else had killed it in a sufficiently cataclysmic fight that left no survivors. 

And.. as they say.. you are what you eat..

----------


## Aquillion

> I don't think Jadis is capable of correcting their assumptions. At most we have seen her whisper things, and most of her bigger prophecies were interpreted by her priests.


Possibly.  Word of God is that Jadis wants to die, though, so I'm not sure she'd correct their assumptions even if she could.

----------


## Hamsandlich

New Offering

SWORD SAINT

----------


## Hamsandlich

Word of God is that Gog-Agog is the eldest of the Seven by a large margin. Who's to say she wasn't one of the OG Demiurges, who entered Throne without a Key and received one from Zoss (though this implies she wasn't always an iNsANe amalgam of worms).

----------


## Eldan

Still thinking Abaddon's going for the Lovecraft allusion on that one. 




> The nethermost caverns...are not for the fathoming of eyes that see; for their marvels are strange and terrific. Cursed the ground where dead thoughts live new and oddly bodied, and evil the mind that is held by no head. Wisely did Ibn Schacabao say, that happy is the tomb where no wizard hath lain, and happy the town at night whose wizards are all ashes. For it is of old rumour that the soul of the devil-bought hastes not from his charnel clay, but fats and instructs the very worm that gnaws; till out of corruption horrid life springs, and the dull scavengers of earth wax crafty to vex it and swell monstrous to plague it. Great holes secretly are digged where earth's pores ought to suffice,* and things have learnt to walk that ought to crawl.*

----------


## Hamsandlich

New Offering

STRENGTH
W
O
R
D

----------


## Olinser

Thin kid with the wild hair is definitely Kidcubus.

Makes sense, he was explicitly referred to as a swordmaster by Abbadon when talking about their relative strengths.

----------


## Professor Gnoll

> Thin kid with the wild hair is definitely Kidcubus.
> 
> Makes sense, he was explicitly referred to as a swordmaster by Abbadon when talking about their relative strengths.


In fact, he's the very best practitioner of Sword Law in the universes (which of course makes him the worst swordsman ever to live).

----------


## Olinser

> In fact, he's the very best practitioner of Sword Law in the universes (which of course makes him the worst swordsman ever to live).


Where was it ever stated he was the best?

Meti was explicitly the strongest, and Maya was her only pupil.

My understanding is that the other Demiurges look down on Incubus because he was NOT stronger than Maya, and only acquired her Key and throne when she abandoned them (for unknown reasons that we will hopefully learn in this flashback).

----------


## Aquillion

> Where was it ever stated he was the best?
> 
> Meti was explicitly the strongest, and Maya was her only pupil.
> 
> My understanding is that the other Demiurges look down on Incubus because he was NOT stronger than Maya, and only acquired her Key and throne when she abandoned them (for unknown reasons that we will hopefully learn in this flashback).


The point is that mechanically mastering sword law doesn't make you a good swordsman.  Incubus has (presumably) learned or stolen Meti's sword techniques, but completely ignored the philosophy and deeper understanding behind them, which in K6BD makes him a terrible swordsman because he doesn't actually understand the point of the exercise and isn't capable of reaching Royalty.

It's almost certain that the alt text on this page describes him.

----------


## Professor Gnoll

> Where was it ever stated he was the best?
> 
> Meti was explicitly the strongest, and Maya was her only pupil.
> 
> My understanding is that the other Demiurges look down on Incubus because he was NOT stronger than Maya, and only acquired her Key and throne when she abandoned them (for unknown reasons that we will hopefully learn in this flashback).


I was extrapolating slightly- Abaddon says that "some would say" Incubus is the very best at Sword Law, and the alt text for a recent comic refers to Incubus as an "unparalleled master" of it (also mentioning that as he only knows how to kill and maim, he is an exceptionally poor swordsman). 

So Incubus is quite possibly better at turning men into ghosts than Maya is. Of course, we just don't really know yet- though we may find out before this book ends. (As a side note, Meti isn't explicitly the strongest- Lord Intra seems to have had a similar grasp of the Principle Art, and is indeed the original, titular King of Swords.)



> The point is that mechanically mastering sword law doesn't make you a good swordsman.  Incubus has (presumably) learned or stolen Meti's sword techniques, but completely ignored the philosophy and deeper understanding behind them, which in K6BD makes him a terrible swordsman because he doesn't actually understand the point of the exercise and isn't capable of reaching Royalty.
> 
> It's almost certain that the alt text on this page describes him.


Pretty much this.

----------


## Professor Gnoll

New Offering
Praise the King of Swords, the unparalleled master of the Principle Art!

----------


## Hamsandlich

The sanctioned action is to cut

----------


## Hamsandlich

New Offering

There Maya, that wasn't so hard now was it?

----------


## Onyavar

> Where was it ever stated he was the best?
> 
> Meti was explicitly the strongest, and Maya was her only pupil.


Quite possible. Incubus wasn't a pupil, he was already a student.

----------


## mystic1110

Were Metis eyes always hot pink‽

----------


## -D-

> Were Metis eyes always hot pink‽


It's debatable. But they were always reddish and small. We never saw them big, so maybe?

----------


## mystic1110

> It's debatable. But they were always reddish and small. We never saw them big, so maybe?


The worry is - of course - if Kidcubbus could have influenced Meti in any way. Doubt it, but suspicious.

----------


## Aquillion

I seriously doubt kid Incubus could do anything at all to Meti.

Another thought:  Given Incubus' power over dreams, it's possible that what we're seeing here isn't what actually happened.

----------


## rooster707

No comics this week while Abbadon prepares for the LANCER Kickstarter, which launches on the 8th.

I keep seeing the mech art on his Twitter and it looks incredible, but I havent looked into the lore or mechanics of the game at all... probably gonna back it anyway. I stopped doing Kickstarters a while ago, but Abbadon deserves all of my money.

----------


## halfeye

> No comics this week while Abbadon prepares for the LANCER Kickstarter, which launches on the 8th.
> 
> I keep seeing the mech art on his Twitter and it looks incredible, but I havent looked into the lore or mechanics of the game at all... probably gonna back it anyway. I stopped doing Kickstarters a while ago, but Abbadon deserves all of my money.


Starting a new project without killing the old one is generally a bad thing. Something loses attention.

----------


## Hamsandlich

Abbadon's been working on Lancer for months now.

----------


## halfeye

> Abbadon's been working on Lancer for months now.


Years. I suspect it's been showing.

----------


## rooster707

> Starting a new project without killing the old one is generally a bad thing. Something loses attention.


While Id tend to agree in principle...




> Abbadon's been working on Lancer for months now.


...yeah, this. ^ Also, Lancer is a team effort; theres at least one other person involved right now and I believe theyre currently looking for more. This is not Abbadon just writing, drawing, and designing an entire RPG/setting from scratch all
by himself.

----------


## halfeye

> While Id tend to agree in principle..


I didn't know about this before now, but I do think the production rate and quality of KSBD has declined for a while now.




> ...yeah, this. ^ Also, Lancer is a team effort; theres at least one other person involved right now and I believe theyre currently looking for more. This is not Abbadon just writing, drawing, and designing an entire RPG/setting from scratch all
> by himself.


Whatever, it's a distraction either way. If it's good enough to replace KSBD he should drop this, if it's not, he should drop that. His call, but drop one, is what I'm saying, I'm not feeling like Lancer is my sort of thing, but I'm a random, could be everbody else likes Lancer.

----------


## Olinser

> Starting a new project without killing the old one is generally a bad thing. Something loses attention.


Yeah, the last time an artist I liked did it, the 2nd project didn't last very long and went completely unfinished because the authors acknowledged they couldn't keep up with both comics.

----------


## Weimann

We should consider that this is Abbadon's full time job, though. That comic and associated projects pay him almost twice what I make as a teacher. Most other webcomic authors do it as a hobby, in their free time, for little to no recompense. This means he has much more time to spend on his projects than most.

Besides, he's published at least one other PbtA RPG system to no discernible impact on the comic, showing he can handle it. I'm more inclined to think this is less him splitting his attention and more a way to not have to think about the same thing all the time.

----------


## -D-

> I didn't know about this before now, but I do think the production rate and quality of KSBD has declined for a while now.


Could you expand on this? I didn't get the impression much has changed. Although the update rate has slowed a bit.

----------


## halfeye

> Could you expand on this? I didn't get the impression much has changed. Although the update rate has slowed a bit.


I don't know that I can in any detail, the slower updates and maybe a loss of understandable-ness?

----------


## Onyavar

> I don't know that I can in any detail, the slower updates and maybe a loss of understandable-ness?


A LOSS?

Actually, the story has always been extremely obscure. The first book started in medias res, and it's only in the last half of the book that something like "plot" started shining through. You need to read the story many times over. You need to refer to the commentaries and the tumblr to get basic information about anything. In some cases, the K6BD-Wikia has picked up the slack and provides meaningful references.

As far as I know, this is not an oversight, it's by design. To make the story less predictable, and to get the reader involved - you have to research and speculate by yourself, or you get lost there.

Still to this point, we have no idea on so many important topics of the story that it hurts. Basically characters with the exception of Allison are speaking in riddles, based on that they know their world, and we readers don't.

----------


## rooster707

The LANCER Kickstarter is live and already at about 75% to its goal within an hour. This pleases me.

Link, presented without further comment.

----------


## Professor Gnoll

New Offering

UNPARALLELED MASTER OF KILLING AND MAIMING

----------


## Aquillion

More Diogenes references!

*Spoiler*
Show

I suspect Meti didn't actually mind being fed to the dogs after death.

----------


## -D-

> More Diogenes references!
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I suspect Meti didn't actually mind being fed to the dogs after death.


Speaking of references. There was one text how some from the school wanted to die, but can't find it anywhere.

----------


## slayerx

> More Diogenes references!
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I suspect Meti didn't actually mind being fed to the dogs after death.


Actually it's reference from the alt text from a few pages back. Maya asked what she should do with Meti's body if she were torn apart by her enemies, and Meti said she should just feed it to the dogs. Meti really didn't give a damn about what happened to her body after death

----------


## Narkis

> Actually it's reference from the alt text from a few pages back. Maya asked what she should do with Meti's body if she were torn apart by her enemies, and Meti said she should just feed it to the dogs. Meti really didn't give a damn about what happened to her body after death


Specifically, the alt text to this page. Incubus followed her orders even beyond the end.

----------


## Professor Gnoll

> Actually it's reference from the alt text from a few pages back. Maya asked what she should do with Meti's body if she were torn apart by her enemies, and Meti said she should just feed it to the dogs. Meti really didn't give a damn about what happened to her body after death


That _is_ the Diogenes reference- Meti's quote there is a direct paraphrase of Diogenes' own attitude towards burial rites.

----------


## Olinser

> Actually it's reference from the alt text from a few pages back. Maya asked what she should do with Meti's body if she were torn apart by her enemies, and Meti said she should just feed it to the dogs. Meti really didn't give a damn about what happened to her body after death


Which actually may be some interested implied subtext, when coupled with the whole head shaving thing.

It doesn't really look like Maya ever actually shaved her head with the sword, while Incubus did it without question. Meti told them to feed her body to the dogs when she was dead, and Incubus actually did it.

I'm getting the impression that what Maya ACTUALLY hates about Incubus is that Meti liked him better than her as a student.

----------


## Narkis

> Which actually may be some interested implied subtext, when coupled with the whole head shaving thing.
> 
> It doesn't really look like Maya ever actually shaved her head with the sword, while Incubus did it without question. Meti told them to feed her body to the dogs when she was dead, and Incubus actually did it.
> 
> I'm getting the impression that what Maya ACTUALLY hates about Incubus is that Meti liked him better than her as a student.


Yeah, I get that impression as well. Maya seemed to learn swordsmanship while rejecting Meti's philosophy, while Incubus embraced the sword and philosophy both.

----------


## mystic1110

> Yeah, I get that impression as well. Maya seemed to learn swordsmanship while rejecting Meti's philosophy, while Incubus embraced the sword and philosophy both.


Except he didnt accept the philosophy - if he did he would have thought the sword a monumentally stupid weapon and gone to have built a house instead. 

They both learned what they wanted to learn (sword art), and they both ignored various things.

----------


## lord_khaine

Now i am wondering if Incubus actually just challenged Meti to a regular duel, 
to test if he had surpassed his old trainer.

----------


## Hamsandlich

I think its possible that Meti never even considered Maya a true student and thus never formally taught her the Sword Law. She has the honorific "ten Meti", but when the girl says "then you became her second [apprentice]", Maya doesn't directly answer her. Its possible that Meti spent her entire time teaching Incubus misgendering him(which is why her Sword Manual refers to her student as a girl), I mean, she wasn't the most pleasant individual.

----------


## Aquillion

> I think its possible that Meti never even considered Maya a true student and thus never formally taught her the Sword Law. She has the honorific "ten Meti", but when the girl says "then you became her second [apprentice]", Maya doesn't directly answer her. Its possible that Meti spent her entire time teaching Incubus misgendering him(which is why her Sword Manual refers to her student as a girl), I mean, she wasn't the most pleasant individual.


The problem is that the sword manual doesn't just refer to her apprentice as a girl, it says her only apprentice is:



> ...an idiot speck of a girl with more talent for eating than skill with the blade


...which definitely describes Maya (or is at least how Meti might describe Maya), but doesn't really describe anything we know about Incubus.  We have no reason to think he's a big eater, whereas Maya was introduced ignoring the giant death battle behind her to finish eating her noodles.

Another problem is the way the Seven and Incubus seem to regard Maya vs. Incubus.  It wouldn't make sense for them to hold Incubus in contempt and to view Maya as legitimate if Incubus was Meti's only student.

I think it's more likely that:

1.  Incubus had already left or been kicked out by that point (hence 'only apprentice'), or,

2.  Maya is leaving something else out.  It's entirely possible, given Meti's contempt for people who use swords, that she took the incompetent, disobedient student and not the competent dangerous one.  That is to say, she'd recognize Incubus' fanaticism and desire to master killing people with swords at any costs, and to her this would be a reason to _not_ train him.

3.  Something else weird is going on here.

----------


## Hamsandlich

Well, Incubus _was_ a starving urchin at that point, its possible that he was just as big of an eater as Maya is now

----------


## Aquillion

There's also this and this from Abaddon's tumblr.

----------


## Olinser

Interesting. I notice that in the most recent now Maya's head is shaved.

And yeah, this is definitely informing us why everybody said Meti only had one apprentice.

----------


## understatement

I just really wanted to pop in and say yes, I just started the comic, and it has made me so happy over the past week.

and then I slink away

----------


## mystic1110

> And yeah, this is definitely informing us why everybody said Meti only had one apprentice.


Apparently, Incubus wasn't an apprentice for Meti, but a Lesson for Maya - which might feed into his own inferiority complex since he thought he was an apprentice.

----------


## Eldan

See, I would have said the one who most definitely lost this exchange is the rat.

----------


## rooster707

> I just really wanted to pop in and say yes, I just started the comic, and it has made me so happy over the past week.
> 
> and then I slink away


Congratulations!  :Small Big Grin:  Welcome to the thread, hope you enjoy your stay.

----------


## Gez

> I'm getting the impression that what Maya ACTUALLY hates about Incubus is that Meti liked him better than her as a student.


I don't think Meti can be described as liking people as students. It's really not the correct verb.

Meti's entire philosophy is that mastering the sword is a terrible idea for idiots who make everything worse. And yes she does include herself in this category.

She teaches that to master "sword law", you need to be completely absorbed by the act of cutting. You need to not think about anything else -- not why you're doing it in the first place, not how you plan to survive, not what happens after you win, or after you lose. Just the Cut. You need to think only about this, but so strongly that you can do it even if you lose your sword, even if you lose your life. Cutting is the only thing you should ever focus on, if you want to be good at it.

And that's why she has the most total contempt for those who, like her, go down that road, because they're completely useless.

Maya is her apprentice because, like Meti, she finds the whole thing appalling. That's what made her a terrible student, but it's also what made her a student in the first place, instead of an object lesson. Incubus just went with the flow, accepting Meti's lessons without ever questioning them, and never adopting the same disgust that Meti had. Consider that Meti, while she was the most badass warrior in the setting, chose to live as a hobo in a barrel instead of conquering a realm and ruling as a queen. She could have, who could have opposed her? At the very least she could have been some hero of the realm kind of thing, if she didn't want to rule directly. She could still have lived in wealth and comfort. But no, she purposefully rejected all of that to live like Diogenes.

Maya once led the Middle Army and it's been implied that she held one of the Keys of creation, she could have been one of the Demiurges. But she abandoned her throne to live as a mendicant knight. Incubus took the throne Maya abandoned and still rules as a Demiurge. Perhaps he was a better student than Maya for pure swordfighting; but it's pretty clear that he wasn't really a student of Meti; otherwise he'd be living in a barrel and encouraging people to learn how to cook noodles instead of pushing them on magical ambition drugs. (It's interesting that Incubus' junkies do end up as destitute hobos anyway, but not of their own inititative like Meti and Maya.)

----------


## Onyavar

Well, this comic about the rat was unexpected. Maya says she believes that Meti thought of her as her only true pupil. Now, I have no doubt Maya believes that.

I have, however, some little doubts that Meti really thought that. The previous comics have shown Meti as very approving of Incubus while disapproving of Maya. This newest comic suggests otherwise - but if Meti is all about teaching the wisdom of the right (preventive) action at the right time, her entrance qualifications of having a shaved head... are... pretty strange.

Also, her teachings are worrisome. Let's think this through:
- If Maya was wanting to kill the rat right on the behest of Meti, she should have killed the rat right away. (Or competed with Incubus on the honor.) That would have not been the wise action, just following the order.
- If Maya was not wanting the rat dead, she should have killed Incubus? Just like that? Would THAT course of action have been the wise path that Meti wanted to guide her on?
- If Maya was not willing to kill Incubus over a rat, what should she have done?

Well, it all comes down to that: If you can see where the current situation will lead things to develop (i.e. know that Incubus will kill the innocent rat), are you willing to do the necessary preventive actions (i.e. kill Incubus to have the rat alive) and live with the universe that unfolds BECAUSE OF HOW YOU (not) ACTED in some way.
The latest comic suggests that Maya is contemplating all of this thoroughly. Obviously too much so.

With regards to the previous discussion about the nature of the seven demiurges and whether or not they correspond to the seven sins of Catholicism: Maya would seem to be like an extremely good fit for Sloth. She is so good at not acting (for various reasons) that she doesn't even rule "her" domain. [Again, this is a conjecture of everything we have seen about her: She is a good-natured person, she thinks about consequences, but she rarely takes the decisive actions she would need to be a proper ruler.] Incubus has been said not to be the true demiurge of his domain, but I somehow doubt Maya is really a full demiurge.




> I just really wanted to pop in and say yes, I just started the comic, and it has made me so happy over the past week.


A heartfelt hello to you!



> and then I slink away


Nooooooo! So soon!

----------


## rooster707

> Well, this comic about the rat was unexpected. Maya says she believes that Meti thought of her as her only true pupil. Now, I have no doubt Maya believes that.
> 
> I have, however, some little doubts that Meti really thought that. The previous comics have shown Meti as very approving of Incubus while disapproving of Maya. This newest comic suggests otherwise - but if Meti is all about teaching the wisdom of the right (preventive) action at the right time, her entrance qualifications of having a shaved head... are... pretty strange.
> 
> Also, her teachings are worrisome. Let's think this through:
> - If Maya was wanting to kill the rat right on the behest of Meti, she should have killed the rat right away. (Or competed with Incubus on the honor.) That would have not been the wise action, just following the order.
> - If Maya was not wanting the rat dead, she should have killed Incubus? Just like that? Would THAT course of action have been the wise path that Meti wanted to guide her on?
> - If Maya was not willing to kill Incubus over a rat, what should she have done?
> 
> ...


The lesson is "do whatever it takes to get what you want." It doesn't matter if your goal is "wise" or not, or what the consequences will be. All that matters is what you're willing to do to attain it. Same with the haircut - it was never about the hair, it was about how far Maya would go to get Meti to teach her.

This, I suspect, is the essence of Sword Law.

----------


## Aquillion

> Well, this comic about the rat was unexpected. Maya says she believes that Meti thought of her as her only true pupil. Now, I have no doubt Maya believes that.
> 
> I have, however, some little doubts that Meti really thought that.


Maya's sword manual refers to her "only apprentice" as "an idiot speck of a girl with more talent for eating than skill with the blade."

It is _really hard_ to see how that applies to Incubus.




> This newest comic suggests otherwise - but if Meti is all about teaching the wisdom of the right (preventive) action at the right time, her entrance qualifications of having a shaved head... are... pretty strange.


Admittedly, it's cheating a bit to rely on comprehensive knowledge of Abaddon's twitter, but no, you have Meti exactly wrong.  Abaddon has said that the entire point of her character is that she could easily beat anyone and _doesn't_.

The point of this lesson isn't that Maya should have killed Incubus.  Obviously Maya did not want to (and should not have) killed Incubus over the life of a rat.

The point of this lesson is that the way of the sword is futile and self-defeating.

Again, reread Meti's sword manual, which gives us a lot more insight into Meti's philosophy than the few in-comic appearances you're trying to interpret.  It's pretty plain in context that she thinks that Inucubus is an idiot and that his strategy of murdering things until he's won is both reprehensible and pointless.  For instance:




> A man who finds pleasure in the result of cutting is the most hateful, crawling creature there is. A man who finds pleasure in the act of cutting is an artisan.


Which of those two do you think "winning is all that matters" Incubus is?

Or maybe more tellingly:



> The weak swordsman clings to victory. He thinks of his life, his obligations, the outcome of the battle, his hatred for his opponent, his training, his pride in his mastery. By doing so, he is an imperfect vessel for the terrible fires of Will. He will surely crack. He will not laugh uproariously if he is cleft in two by his opponents blade. When his sword is shattered, his hands will be too reserved to tear his enemies flesh.


This one could have (and may very well _actually have_) been written as a screw-you to Incubus specifically.  She straight-up says that his philosophy makes him weak.




> The lesson is "do whatever it takes to get what you want." It doesn't matter if your goal is "wise" or not, or what the consequences will be. All that matters is what you're willing to do to attain it. Same with the haircut - it was never about the hair, it was about how far Maya would go to get Meti to teach her.


Yes, but I think Maya _passed_ and Incubus _failed_ (and became an object lesson for Maya.)  The fact that determination can cut the world doesn't mean that it should cut the world.  That's the core of Meti's teaching - the sword is an ugly piece of metal and its adherents idiots.

It's obvious at a glance that Incubus was never going to internalize this and only cared about learning how to separate men from their vital fluids.

----------


## Gez

> Well, this comic about the rat was unexpected. Maya says she believes that Meti thought of her as her only true pupil. Now, I have no doubt Maya believes that.
> 
> I have, however, some little doubts that Meti really thought that.


It's what she wrote in her Sword Manual, though.




> The previous comics have shown Meti as very approving of Incubus while disapproving of Maya.


Do you really think this is approval?




> This newest comic suggests otherwise - but if Meti is all about teaching the wisdom of the right (preventive) action at the right time, her entrance qualifications of having a shaved head... are... pretty strange.
> 
> Also, her teachings are worrisome. Let's think this through:
> - If Maya was wanting to kill the rat right on the behest of Meti, she should have killed the rat right away. (Or competed with Incubus on the honor.) That would have not been the wise action, just following the order.
> - If Maya was not wanting the rat dead, she should have killed Incubus? Just like that? Would THAT course of action have been the wise path that Meti wanted to guide her on?
> - If Maya was not willing to kill Incubus over a rat, what should she have done?
> 
> Well, it all comes down to that: If you can see where the current situation will lead things to develop (i.e. know that Incubus will kill the innocent rat), are you willing to do the necessary preventive actions (i.e. kill Incubus to have the rat alive) and live with the universe that unfolds BECAUSE OF HOW YOU (not) ACTED in some way.
> The latest comic suggests that Maya is contemplating all of this thoroughly. Obviously too much so.


The essence of Sword Law is that when swords are involved, death is unavoidable. Your only choice is in whether you are the one who kill, or the one who let the kill happen. It's basically the trolley moral dilemma. Violence cannot be escaped.

Meti is pretty much like the Very Wise Frog.
https://killsixbilliondemons.com/com...-thrones-5-41/

Note that the Very Wise Frog dies to prove its point to Kassardis. Meti lets Incubus kill her to prove her point to Maya.

----------


## Eldan

Honk. tenchar

----------


## Iruka

> Honk. tenchar


Shooooooosh

pap

----------


## lord_khaine

So.. it seems the clown god.. send a clown messenger with a clown invitation for some clowning. 
This is in no way a little scary.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

Why does he seem more terrifying that many other characters we have seen?  :Small Eek: 

Also, he's wrong. There are no Gentlemen here.

----------


## tyckspoon

> Why does he seem more terrifying that many other characters we have seen? 
> 
> Also, he's wrong. There are no Gentlemen here.


He (it? It's an emissary of Gog-Agog, it might not actually be a gendered person as such..) is just doing the usual intro-script for a carnival barker/ringmaster. He would probably do exactly the same thing if he was doing the introduction to empty air.

----------


## mystic1110

Or, it might be a targeted barb? This comic has taken gender pronouns seriously before - why stop (especially since the author could have figured out a way not to make it its own panel).

----------


## lord_khaine

How would said barb target anyone?
Especially when it could be taken as a traditional circus greeting?

----------


## SlyGuyMcFly

> How would said barb target anyone?
> Especially when it could be taken as a traditional circus greeting?


Because there are no gentlemen in the group being addressed. As far as diplomacy is concerned, the person is either an idiot for not adjusting their greeting accordingly, or being sarcastic. I lean towards reading it as sarcasm hidden behind a fairly thin layer of plausible deniability.

----------


## Doran

Or he was trained to say "Ladies and Gentlemen" by Gog-A-Gog in all circumstances as though he was at the circus so that's what he'll say.

----------


## Leewei

He may have been taking a shot at Chains.

----------


## rooster707

> He may have been taking a shot at Chains.


That was my guess. It might be unintentional; angels are supposed to all be male (or at least masculine), right? Female ones might be uncommon enough that most people don't know they exist, or just assume any angel they meet is male anyway.

Slightly off topic: I'm going to shill for LANCER one more time, then I'll stop, I promise. There's about a day and a half left on the Kickstarter, and we're only $20,000 away from the final stretch goal. If you're a fan of RPGs, mechs, military sci-fi, science fantasy, or just Abbadon in general, I think you'll like it.

----------


## Dragonus45

Angels aren't male, they are supposedly all lacking a gender as a matter of being some kind of platonic ideal of the universe or some such. The thing is as time goes on it looks like just about all of them are gaining one or at least identifying with one, but they still act like its a big deal and give people that show it off crap.

----------


## lord_khaine

> He may have been taking a shot at Chains.


It seems like its just Allison and Chio he is adressing. 

But yes, all the same then all the angels are suposedly, if not male then masculine. 
It is kinda a big deal mostly i think, because they spring from the White Flame of UN.

----------


## tyckspoon

Well that seems like a perfectly reasonable reaction.

----------


## mystic1110

Mottom - Glory
Flame - Incubus
Tower - Mamon
Beast- Gog Agog
Diamond - Solomon 

Leaving The Blade & The Mind. 

I'm full in on Jag being Mind now.

----------


## Olinser

> Mottom - Glory
> Flame - Incubus
> Tower - Mamon
> Beast- Gog Agog
> Diamond - Solomon 
> 
> Leaving The Blade & The Mind. 
> 
> I'm full in on Jag being Mind now.


Almost certainly not, Jadis is almost literally nothing BUT a mind at this point.

I'm still surprised Mammon was Tower, though, so anything could happen.

----------


## Gez

> Angels aren't male, they are supposedly all lacking a gender


I'm gonna be pedantic but you cannot be lacking a gender, it's impossible. Gender is (also, and initially) a linguistic property of nouns. Not only do you have necessarily a gender, but you also actually have multiple ones -- at least one per language, and it's not necessarily masculine/feminine/neutral/common since some languages use different gender types, such as "animate/inanimate" for example.

----------


## Dragonus45

> I'm gonna be pedantic but you cannot be lacking a gender, it's impossible. Gender is (also, and initially) a linguistic property of nouns. Not only do you have necessarily a gender, but you also actually have multiple ones -- at least one per language, and it's not necessarily masculine/feminine/neutral/common since some languages use different gender types, such as "animate/inanimate" for example.


When discussion immortal cosmic representations of the white fires of creation in a world where god killed themselves to create reality then wandered back into it to teach people because logic is a falsehood that chains the mind from the truth of the universe then I'm fairly certain something can be totally lacking in gender

----------


## Hamsandlich

I did not expect Gog-Agog to show up in a magical girl outfit. I now demand the rest of the Seven in similar outfits. The Seven Scouts

----------


## Olinser

> I did not expect Gog-Agog to show up in a magical girl outfit. I now demand the rest of the Seven in similar outfits. The Seven Scouts


Huh? 

1) It's not a magical girl outfit. It's a court jester's outfit.

2) It's the same outfit that it was wearing every time we've seen it before

----------


## Hamsandlich

> Huh? 
> 
> 1) It's not a magical girl outfit. It's a court jester's outfit.
> 
> 2) It's the same outfit that it was wearing every time we've seen it before



Its different than her previous jester outfits. The pose and the sceptre-staff are very magical girl. Also, the bursting out of the clown minion is a grotesque parody of magical girl transformations

----------


## Leewei

Wow, er, that was _quite_ the entrance.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

She did learn something from Mottom, didn't she?  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Eldan

> Its different than her previous jester outfits. The pose and the sceptre-staff are very magical girl. Also, the bursting out of the clown minion is a grotesque parody of magical girl transformations


The pose, yes, but the scepter is very typical for clowns, fools and jesters, too. I mean, there's some of both, but overall, it's very jester.

*Spoiler*
Show

----------


## Gez

> When discussion immortal cosmic representations of the white fires of creation in a world where god killed themselves to create reality then wandered back into it to teach people because logic is a falsehood that chains the mind from the truth of the universe then I'm fairly certain something can be totally lacking in gender


Only if no one ever talks about it.

Did you see that? I just gave it a gender by talking about it!

----------


## Eldan

Meanwhile, the word Angel is male in German, even when talking about a female angel, because we don't give a ****.

----------


## Onyavar

While I am curious about why Gog-Agog is interested in Allison, I am really REALLY curious why Allison chose to greet her with a fist.

A year happened - they might have met before? Or Allison is always killing intruders to her house? Or Allison learned about Gog-Agog from Incubus and immediately distrusts her? Or Allison learned about Gog-Agog from White Chain or Cio?


On another note, again, the Universal Metaconstant alphabet proves to be inconsistent in the vowels.

So far, we have observed the "O" that is sometimes an "A", and the "U" that is sometimes an "O" and a "OU" which has appeared once, and now a completely new symbol for the "O", that looks like a "G/K" in reverse.

Is it GOG-AGOG and INGYUFS? Or KOK-AKOK and INKYUBS? Kok-Akok makes me think of the kük török, just by how it sounds. Or is this new "O" supposed to be a consonant? (It really looks so to me, at least). Is Goggies name really KGK-AKGK, or GKG-AGKG?

----------


## Doran

Honestly for Alison to have NOT spent the year learning of the personalities and weaknesses of her 7 main enemies from an angel and a devil does not make a lot of sense.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

> While I am curious about why Gog-Agog is interested in Allison, I am really REALLY curious why Allison chose to greet her with a fist.


In her own words, "She is so cool!"

----------


## Smurfton

Maybe revenge for when Gog-Agog put an eye in Allison's back?
It's been a while since the mspa forums died, but I do recall something along those lines happening in original ksbd.

More seriously, I would probably punch any demiurge that came to my house. Especially if I'm am existential threat to them, and they're definitely here to manipulate me.

----------


## lord_khaine

This his honestly stupidity of a suicidal level. 
Like violently banging on a nuklear bomb because the timer had frozen stupid.

When Gog-Agog arrives like this then its clear that its here to negotiate. 
And Allison should know from her sparring just how wide the gasp is between her and it. 
So punching it is straight up moronic.

----------


## Olinser

> This his honestly stupidity of a suicidal level. 
> Like violently banging on a nuklear bomb because the timer had frozen stupid.
> 
> When Gog-Agog arrives like this then its clear that its here to negotiate. 
> And Allison should know from her sparring just how wide the gasp is between her and it. 
> So punching it is straight up moronic.


Still not as moronic as accepting Incubus' offer.

But I think less moronic than you think.

She's not FIGHTING it or actually attacking. She punched it in the face and is telling it to get lost. 100% guarantee that over the last year she's been learning as much as she can from Cio, White Chain, and anybody else around her of the Demiurge's particular strengths/weaknesses.

I'm almost 100% certain she knows that a punch doesn't actual hurt Gog-Agog, losing a head is a minor inconvenience to it.

Punching it in the face is the functional equivalent of throwing a drink at it and telling it to get lost.

And we literally just got poker a couple panels ago. Allison's bluffing.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

Now I'm wondering if the earlier person was a disguise or some body gog-agog hijacked and rebuild into her image.  :Small Eek:

----------


## lord_khaine

> And we literally just got poker a couple panels ago. Allison's bluffing.


Thats a good point. It does of course not know how strong Allison is. 
And if it does not feel pain, then its likely to be less insulted by a punch to the face.

Also, SWEET GODS! it suddenly jumped wildly up on the threat scale.
Thats just creepy.

----------


## mystic1110

She should have at least hidden the worm in a tequila shot

----------


## Iruka

> Now I'm wondering if the earlier person was a disguise or some body gog-agog hijacked and rebuild into her image.


I had wondered before if the followers around Gog-Agog were just more worms it used to mimic the courts of the other Demiurgs. 

I think that if you eat one of the worms, it hijacks you to an extent that the difference between you and the collective that is Gog-Agog becomes meaningless. It can reform any body it inhabits at will, maybe by spontaneously multiplying the local worms.

----------


## Leewei

The demiurges would never stoop so low as to faking a minion's death.  The jester's gory demise was very real, and certainly meant to disgust and intimidate.

----------


## Gez

> While I am curious about why Gog-Agog is interested in Allison, I am really REALLY curious why Allison chose to greet her with a fist.


Because a clown just exploded in front of her in a shower of gore, and Gog-Agog burst out of it.

Don't startle people (original)

----------


## Olinser

> Now I'm wondering if the earlier person was a disguise or some body gog-agog hijacked and rebuild into her image.


Gog can clearly warp the bodies it controls - remember its first appearance was having its head blown off by Mottom and complaining that it was 'working on that face'.

----------


## mystic1110

There's a steamboat willie cameo on the third panel! (top right tv panel). Gog = Disney ever expanding and media/entertainment monopoly).

----------


## Grek

> Almost certainly not, Jadis is almost literally nothing BUT a mind at this point.
> 
> I'm still surprised Mammon was Tower, though, so anything could happen.


Getting back to this, I am like 80% sure Jadis is Blade. Why?

Jadis went crazy because she 'saw the shape of the world'. The cosmos was created by division, and the sanctioned action is to Cut. What shape could the world be, if not blade-shaped?

----------


## -D-

> Getting back to this, I am like 80% sure Jadis is Blade. Why?
> 
> Jadis went crazy because she 'saw the shape of the world'. The cosmos was created by division, and the sanctioned action is to Cut. What shape could the world be, if not blade-shaped?


The world is quite literally wheel-shaped, we know this from Aesma's stories and the way the universe looks.

----------


## Onyavar

> Hmm, hadn't seen that before, but I agree those are likely the words.
> 
> The Glory, The Tower, The Flame, The Diamond, The Blade, The Mind, The Beast
> 
> So then that leaves us with Tower, Diamond, Blade, Mind, Beast.
> 
> My guess there is that Jagganoth = Blade, Jadis = Diamond, Gog-Agog = Mind, Mammon = Beast, Solomon David = Tower






> Mottom - Glory
> Flame - Incubus
> Tower - Mamon
> Beast- Gog Agog
> Diamond - Solomon 
> 
> Leaving The Blade & The Mind. 
> 
> I'm full in on Jag being Mind now.





> Almost certainly not, Jadis is almost literally nothing BUT a mind at this point.
> 
> I'm still surprised Mammon was Tower, though, so anything could happen.


I have to agree with mystic: Jagganoth must be Mind, Jadis must be Blade. Just 'cause Abbadon likes to mess with his readers.

----------


## -D-

> I have to agree with mystic: Jagganoth must be Mind, Jadis must be Blade. Just 'cause Abbadon likes to mess with his readers.


Or maybe he's messing with readers so much, he's double subverting the expectation (i.e. Jadis is Mind, Jagganoth is Blade, because that's logical).

----------


## Grek

I see no reason to suppose that blades and wheels are not the same shape. We already know that there is a fundamental identity between division and transportation, and between cutting and motion when Royalty is involved.

----------


## mystic1110

> The world is quite literally wheel-shaped


"What is the shape of the universe? It is somewhat wheel-shaped, said Aesma, which was a completely wrong answer.

----------


## -D-

> "What is the shape of the universe? It is somewhat wheel-shaped, said Aesma, which was a completely wrong answer.


If you're going to quote it, quote it in essence.




> "The universe is somewhat wheel-shaped!" said Aesma, proud.
> 
> "Surely, but only from one angle," said YISUN, amused.


It saying it's completely wrong, is bit of a lie in itself. It's a correct answer, for some angles. Namely the one we see in comic.

----------


## Iruka

What a bunch of clowns...

I wonder what the factors are on Goggy reforming its body. Earlier it seemd to have trouble to  get its face back into shape, now it can reform perfectly on a whim. Maybe the earlier bit as done intentionally for comedy?

----------


## lord_khaine

It does seem clear it has been clowning around on purpose.
Acting like a idiot to make the others underestimate it.

----------


## Grek

Pet Peeve: Gog-Agog isn't an it. They're either a 'she' (because they manifest as a green female clown), or else she's a 'they' (because she is literally several trillion worms). The pronoun 'it' is reserved for a non-plural object and Gog-Agog is neither.

----------


## lord_khaine

Gog-Agog isnt a she, just because it choses to assume the form of a female green clown.
We have seen how it can pretty much chose what to look like. 

They does not cover it either. Because there are only 1 Gog-Agog.
It is the only word that really covers a cosmic worm horror.

----------


## Eldan

> Gog-Agog isnt a she, just because it choses to assume the form of a female green clown.
> We have seen how it can pretty much chose what to look like. 
> 
> They does not cover it either. Because there are only 1 Gog-Agog.
> It is the only word that really covers a cosmic worm horror.


Yeah. Gog-Agog is not a they, just like we aren't a they because we are made up of billions of cells.

----------


## Aquillion

> Pet Peeve: Gog-Agog isn't an it. They're either a 'she' (because they manifest as a green female clown), or else she's a 'they' (because she is literally several trillion worms). The pronoun 'it' is reserved for a non-plural object and Gog-Agog is neither.


At one point I seem to recall that the author said that Juggernaut Star intentionally used "it" as a pronoun to emphasize rejection of humanity, but I think that was dropped.

----------


## Hamsandlich

> Gog-Agog isnt a she, just because it choses to assume the form of a female green clown.
> We have seen how it can pretty much chose what to look like. 
> 
> They does not cover it either. Because there are only 1 Gog-Agog.
> It is the only word that really covers a cosmic worm horror.


Gog-Agog has been referred to with female pronouns by the author and addressed as female in text and has had no objection to the designation. She's clearly presenting as female. Juggernaut Star is referred to as an it to represent its personal and intentional distance from humanity.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Gog-Agog has been referred to with female pronouns by the author and addressed as female in text and has had no objection to the designation. She's clearly presenting as female. Juggernaut Star is referred to as an it to represent its personal and intentional distance from humanity.


It has been adressed as Queen of Worms a single time by Solomon, thats about what i can find. 
And that bit could easily just be Solomon being polite in general. 

We are still lacking Gog-Agog's backstory. But i find it pretty likely its about as far from humanity as Juggernaut Star. 
If it turns out to be something like the conciousness of a female demi-urge surviving in the worms that consumed her body,
then yes i am going to turn my stance on this. 

But so far we just know its a hive-mind of worms, whom as i recall are hermaphodites (or however its spelled)

----------


## Hamsandlich

Biological Sex =/= Gender 

Gog-Agog presents as female, Abbadon's tumblr has used feminine pronouns to refer to Gog-Agog. Just because Gog-Agog is an inhuman mass of worms doesn't mean she's uninterested in human conventions(quite the opposite it seems). Juggernaut Star (imperfectly) rejects humanity, sentiment, and more or less anything contrary to the Will of 1 Metatron.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Biological Sex =/= Gender
> 
> Gog-Agog presents as female, Abbadon's tumblr has used feminine pronouns to refer to Gog-Agog. Just because Gog-Agog is an inhuman mass of worms doesn't mean she's uninterested in human conventions(quite the opposite it seems). Juggernaut Star (imperfectly) rejects humanity, sentiment, and more or less anything contrary to the Will of 1 Metatron.


Just because it pretends to be a she, does not actually mean it is. 
So far it has only seemed interested in its own amusement. And perhaps spreading itself. 
It has not given signs of a actual female identity. Only of an alien entity playing a game.

----------


## Doran

This appears to be a tedious semantic argument about whether a pronoun for a fictional character should be decided by biological sex or gender.

Since there's no way to convince the other can't you both just agree to disagree?

Up until the situation is actually resolved in comic of course.

----------


## KatieWebber

The beginning is very similar to the description of a game, and I must say it intrigued me and I would play it with great pleasure. If it would still be a game.

----------


## Doran

Interestingly the first incarnation of it was a forum post game  on the MS Paint Adventures forum.

It then got retooled and relaunched as a webcomic, with more limited user suggestions of Gods and the demon heist characters.

----------


## Iruka

There is also Broken Worlds, the K6BD RPG.

----------


## Smurfton

> This his honestly stupidity of a suicidal level. 
> Like violently banging on a nuklear bomb because the timer had frozen stupid.
> 
> When Gog-Agog arrives like this then its clear that she's here to negotiate. 
> And Allison should know from her sparring just how wide the gasp is between her and Gog. 
> So punching her is straight up moronic.



There's a few reasons this isn't moronic: 

The punch wasn't for Gog-Agog. It was for _Allison_. In her encounters with Mottom, Incubus, and Mammon, Allison didn't feel like she was in control. That was even her stated reason for accepting Incubus' pact.
She punched Gog-Agog in the nose to establish _to herself_ that she was in control of the situation.

Second reason: that punch wasn't about to do anything more than mildly inconvenience a demiurge

Third reason: every demiurge wants her alive, except Jadis (who already knows when Allison will die). If you think Zaid is the true heir, then killing Allison means that Zaid gets the key faster.
If you think Allison is the true heir, then currying favor might mean she's more lenient on you when obliterating the seven headed beast.

----------


## mystic1110

Holy **** gogagog is creepy

----------


## Hamsandlich

Side effects of Worm may include excessive euphoria, watery eyes, inability to focus, desire to be the center of attention, loss of identity, GREEN, quantum mimicry, painful grinning, dissolving, self cannibalization, GOGAGOG, sudden theatrical explosions into viscera, and magical girl transformation. Do not take Worm if you are on medication containing Hansa's Tobacco, Skesh, Black Glass, White Sand, Devil's Kisses, Peaches of Immortality, Angel Feathers, and the Word FLAME. Ask your Vatra if Worm is right for you.

----------


## Grek

Gog-Agog continues to be best demiurge.

----------


## mystic1110

you can see that the light of her key vanishes before she breaks apart into the component wurms, so "gog-agog" seems isn't each wurm, or any mass of wurms, but seems to be a sort of consciousness that can flit between the wurms.

----------


## Leewei

> Side effects of Worm may include excessive euphoria, watery eyes, inability to focus, desire to be the center of attention, loss of identity, GREEN, quantum mimicry, painful grinning, dissolving, self cannibalization, GOGAGOG, sudden theatrical explosions into viscera, and magical girl transformation. Do not take Worm if you are on medication containing Hansa's Tobacco, Skesh, Black Glass, White Sand, Devil's Kisses, Peaches of Immortality, Angel Feathers, and the Word FLAME. Ask your Vatra if Worm is right for you.


Hahahaha!  Outstanding!

----------


## Doran

> you can see that the light of her key vanishes before she breaks apart into the component wurms, so "gog-agog" seems isn't each wurm, or any mass of wurms, but seems to be a sort of consciousness that can flit between the wurms.


She could still be all the worms at once, but can only focus her key in one place at a time.

----------


## understatement

She's Envy, right? I bet if Allison "wins" the match Gog-Agog'll just backstab her. No way Allison's going to get Zaid back.

----------


## lord_khaine

> She could still be all the worms at once, but can only focus her key in one place at a time.


For some cryptic reason i keep confusing you and Mystic 1110 :P

But yes i do think it makes sense. There are only 1 key after all. 




> She's Envy, right? I bet if Allison "wins" the match Gog-Agog'll just backstab her. No way Allison's going to get Zaid back.


She isnt Envy. It or She, whatever you want, are Gog Agog. The Great Devourer. The Scourge of Worlds. bearer of the word BEAST. 
But as far as i know, then there has newer been a official link between the demi-urges and the deathly sins. Thats something the fans came up with on their own.
I think the comic has shown that they are more complexs than that though.

----------


## Nettlekid

> But as far as i know, then there has newer been a official link between the demi-urges and the deathly sins. Thats something the fans came up with on their own.


I mean...
There's one who eats everything, be it peaches or planets.
There's one who collects all the gold and wealth in the cosmos.
There's one who wants to kill literally everything.
There's one who has prostitute envoys and is, in the author's words, "gay for power."
There's one who thinks he's better than everyone else to the point of delusion.
There's one who wears other people's faces and wants to be adored.
There's one who can't move a muscle forever and gets carried around.

I don't think it ever needs to be explicitly stated, there is very clear and direct subtext.

----------


## Grek

But conversely, there's also:
The one who endlessly pillages worlds for their wealth, unable to get enough.
The one who hasn't left his house for centuries, tended to by his servants.
The one who cares only about endlessly improving himself and his worldly status.
The one who lives in the perpetually shadow of a greater, more worthy warrior.
The one who killed his teachers after learning martial arts for the sake of revenge.
The one who tempts people into her service by feeding them writhing pleasure-drugs.
The one who nearly destroyed herself through hubris, unable to admit it was beyond her.

Each demiurge contains a multitude of sins.

----------


## lord_khaine

> But conversely, there's also:
> The one who endlessly pillages worlds for their wealth, unable to get enough.
> The one who hasn't left his house for centuries, tended to by his servants.
> The one who cares only about endlessly improving himself and his worldly status.
> The one who lives in the perpetually shadow of a greater, more worthy warrior.
> The one who killed his teachers after learning martial arts for the sake of revenge.
> The one who tempts people into her service by feeding them writhing pleasure-drugs.
> The one who nearly destroyed herself through hubris, unable to admit it was beyond her.
> 
> Each demiurge contains a multitude of sins.


Yeah that was the point i were trying to make :)
Its a bit like a rochard test. If you want to see a specific connect then you can also likely find it.
And if you start with a idea and then try to confirm it, then your also more likely to find the specific evidence your hunting. 
While steering around all the stuff that would disprove the hypothis.

----------


## Grek

Yeah, if you think about it, ALL of the Seven are guilty of Pride (you really think you're worthy of ruling even 14% of the multiverse?), Wrath (can't become a demiurge without killing a few million people minimum), Envy (All of them except Mottom want Zoss's seat, she wants Allison's instead) and Greed (you don't become a demiurge without being full of Want). 3/7 are literal cannibals, 2/7 sulk at home and usually send envoys instead, 3/7 encourage human blood sports, 1/7 is a polygamist, etc. Jag is the one with the smallest sin counter so far.

----------


## Onyavar

> Thats something the fans came up with on their own.
> I think the comic has shown that they are more complexs than that though.


THIS.




> There's one who eats everything, be it peaches or planets.
> There's one who collects all the gold and wealth in the cosmos.
> There's one who wants to kill literally everything.
> There's one who has prostitute envoys and is, in the author's words, "gay for power."
> There's one who thinks he's better than everyone else to the point of delusion.
> There's one who wears other people's faces and wants to be adored.
> There's one who can't move a muscle forever and gets carried around.





> The one who endlessly pillages worlds for their wealth, unable to get enough.
> The one who hasn't left his house for centuries, tended to by his servants.
> The one who cares only about endlessly improving himself and his worldly status.
> The one who lives in the perpetual shadow of a greater, more worthy warrior.
> The one who killed his teachers after learning martial arts for the sake of revenge.
> The one who tempts people into her service by feeding them writhing pleasure-drugs.
> The one who nearly destroyed herself through hubris, unable to admit it was beyond her.


Wait, I got this.
Nettlekid proposed: Mottom/Gluttony; Mammon/Greed; Jagganoth/Wrath; Incubus/Lust; Solomon David/Pride; Gog-Agog/Envy; Jadis/Sloth
Grek proposed: Mottom/Greed; Mammon/Sloth; Jagganoth/Gluttony(?); Incubus/Envy; Solomon David/Wrath; Gog-Agog/Lust; Jadis/Pride

Now, I'm the guy who agrees mostly with Grek but for me it is clearly Mottom/Sloth and Mammon/Greed.
... That is, unless Incubus is not even part of the demiurges. If we replace him with Maya/Sloth, the entire formula changes again.

But hey, what about their respective followers/cults? I'd say we can also fit their courts together as:
Mottom/Gluttony; Mammon/Wrath; Jagganoth/?; Incubus/Pride; Solomon David/Sloth; Gog-Agog/Lust; Jadis/? [Envy and Greed are unassigned; we know nothing about possible motivations of Jadis' Priests and whoever follows Jagganoth. Maybe we can shift these assignments around at a later point.]

I propose that we also assign the seven prismatic colors to the demiurges: Incubus is Red, Mottom is Orange, Mammon is Yellow, Gog-Agog is Green, Jadis is blue, Solomon David is Indigo, Jagganoth is Violent.  ... or wait, what if we use the system of Newton? Mottom is Red, Mammon is Orange, Jagganoth is Yellow, Gog-Agog is green, Incubus is Cyan, Jadis is blue, Solomon is Purple??

Also hey, there are seven days in the week! I think we have them covered...
Loonsday - Incubus
Duesday - Mammon
Widowsday - Mottom
Terrorsday - Jagganoth
Fryday - Solomon
Shatterday - Jadis
Funday - Gog-Agog

----------


## halfeye

> Yeah, if you think about it, ALL of the Seven are guilty of Pride (you really think you're worthy of ruling even 14% of the multiverse?), Wrath (can't become a demiurge without killing a few million people minimum), Envy (All of them except Mottom want Zoss's seat, she wants Allison's instead) and Greed (you don't become a demiurge without being full of Want). 3/7 are literal cannibals, 2/7 sulk at home and usually send envoys instead, 3/7 encourage human blood sports, 1/7 is a polygamist, etc. Jag is the one with the smallest sin counter so far.


Multi-sins for all the demi-urges, I like it.

I think the big thing is going to be Alison's interaction with Metatron, who isn't a demi-urge.

----------


## Gez

> We are still lacking Gog-Agog's backstory. But i find it pretty likely its about as far from humanity as Juggernaut Star. 
> If it turns out to be something like the conciousness of a female demi-urge surviving in the worms that consumed her body,
> then yes i am going to turn my stance on this.


She was an envious girl who crushed on a prince, but since she was neither rich nor comely, sempai did not notice her. Eventually she committed suicide by hanging herself from a tree, and nobody ever noticed her corpse, or noticed she was missing, only the worms noticed her. So her ghost moved onto the worms, and then as a mass of worms she discovered her power to change shape, so she took a beautiful appearance to woo the prince, but things didn't work out how she wanted, so long story short she ended eating the prince and impersonating him, and then the prince's court when they found out the prince was weird, and then pretty much the entire kingdom when it decided to kill the shapechanging monster, and pretty soon the entire world was either Gog-Agog or those who decided to worship her as a master instead of trying to fight her.

Then the gate to her world opened, and a demiurge bent on conquering a new world stepped in, and he was eaten by a mass of worms pretty much immediately, and that's the story of how Gog-Agog got her Key and became a demiurge herself.

----------


## Eldan

Not sure Gog-Agog needs much backstory beyond being a giant worm hive with magic powers. Not that I'd complain.




> Cursed the ground where dead thoughts live new and oddly bodied, and evil the mind that is held by no head. Wisely did Ibn Schacabao say, that happy is the tomb where no wizard hath lain, and happy the town at night whose wizards are all ashes. For it is of old rumour that the soul of the devil-bought hastes not from his charnel clay, but fats and instructs the very worm that gnaws; till out of corruption horrid life springs, and the dull scavengers of earth wax crafty to vex it and swell monstrous to plague it. Great holes secretly are digged where earths pores ought to suffice, and things have learnt to walk that ought to crawl.

----------


## Aquillion

> Yeah, if you think about it, ALL of the Seven are guilty of Pride (you really think you're worthy of ruling even 14% of the multiverse?), Wrath (can't become a demiurge without killing a few million people minimum), Envy (All of them except Mottom want Zoss's seat, she wants Allison's instead) and Greed (you don't become a demiurge without being full of Want). 3/7 are literal cannibals, 2/7 sulk at home and usually send envoys instead, 3/7 encourage human blood sports, 1/7 is a polygamist, etc. Jag is the one with the smallest sin counter so far.


Not really sure.  Maybe at one point they were, but a lot of them (Mammon, Jadis, Mottom) don't fit most of those sins anymore.

----------


## Grek

Mottom straight up turns a man into a tree for defying her. She's plenty wrathful. And Mammon still kills people, he just uses traps for them.

----------


## Hamsandlich

New Offering


Wherein Nyave is once again awesome

----------


## lord_khaine

My point of view is less awesome. And more dumb as a brick..

----------


## Hamsandlich

> My point of view is less awesome. And more dumb as a brick..


Haven't you been paying attention? Those two are the exact same thing in this comic.

----------


## Aquillion

If this were a D&D session, what Nyave is saying would boil down to "ok, yes, it's stupid and we have no motivation to go, but it's obviously what the DM wants us to do, so let's just bite the bullet and go, otherwise the story won't move forward."

----------


## Hamsandlich

> If this were a D&D session, what Nyave is saying would boil down to "ok, yes, it's stupid and we have no motivation to go, but it's obviously what the DM wants us to do, so let's just bite the bullet and go, otherwise the story won't move forward."


I mean, they have motivation ("rescue Zaid" in Allison's case, and "Deliver the Master Key to the 'True Heir'" in White Chain's case), its just that up until Nyave spoke up, their existential terror at the prospect of Salami Dave liquifying their Atums with a single punch dwarfed that motivation.

----------


## Grek

Nyave is 10000% Gog Agog, right?

-Slams fist on table, just like Solomon David does (Gog Agog tends to mimic people.)
-Makes passionate speech telling Allison to do what Gog Agog said to do. (Just as they expressed doubts!)
-Lumpy wet tears, just like Gog Agog possessed people tend to have. (Well, Cio too...)
-Weird mark on neck that apparently wasn't there before. (Panel 6 today!)
-Subtle flakes of Gog Agog green fire around her head as she does this. (Biggest hint.)

----------


## Hamsandlich

> Nyave is 10000% Gog Agog, right?
> 
> -Slams fist on table, just like Solomon David does (Gog Agog tends to mimic people.)
> -Makes passionate speech telling Allison to do what Gog Agog said to do. (Just as they expressed doubts!)
> -Lumpy wet tears, just like Gog Agog possessed people tend to have. (Well, Cio too...)
> -Weird mark on neck that apparently wasn't there before. (Panel 6 today!)
> -Subtle flakes of Gog Agog green fire around her head as she does this. (Biggest hint.)


Not sure about the marks on the neck, but you're pretty spot on everywhere else. Bye Nyave, you were great.

----------


## Smurfton

> Nyave is 10000% Gog Agog, right?
> 
> -Subtle flakes of Gog Agog green fire around her head as she does this. (Biggest hint.)


It's plausible that Nyave is emoting hard enough to make her soul flame, which just so happens to be the same color as Gog-Agog's, visible. Sure is unlikely though.

----------


## lord_khaine

Im not entirely sold on that theory. 
Yes there is the bit about her posture being identical to SD's. Y
And yes for some weird reason her soul is flaming green.
But it can easily just be how Abbadon draws tears. 
The weird neck mark meanwhile could be a tear dripping off her chin.

----------


## Smurfton

It is incredibly difficult to make a ring out of atum without some intense training. We've never seen her forehead on fire (basic version of projecting atum), and here we see her creating the beginnings of a ring (advanced version). At the very least, Nyave has been lying to Allison.

----------


## Hamsandlich

New Offering

Enter Tripitaka and the Three Disciples(or something)

Also, what a verdant shade of green Nyave is wearing...

----------


## lord_khaine

Alright yeah. 
Thats a bit to many hints towards something being off with Nyave.

----------


## gbs5009

> Alright yeah. 
> Thats a bit to many hints towards something being off with Nyave.


That would definitely flip Gog-Agog from being, in my mind, comically inept at manipulating people to scarily effective.

----------


## tyckspoon

> That would definitely flip Gog-Agog from being, in my mind, comically inept at manipulating people to scarily effective.


Gog-Agog is one of the Rulers of the Seven-Part World, a survivor and victor of a multiversal war, and considered a peer by the most destructive persons around. If they present themselves as incompetent in anything, and especially in the clownish degree that Gog-Agog does, it's almost certainly a deception.

----------


## gbs5009

> Gog-Agog is one of the Rulers of the Seven-Part World, a survivor and victor of a multiversal war, and considered a peer by the most destructive persons around. If they present themselves as incompetent in anything, and especially in the clownish degree that Gog-Agog does, it's almost certainly a deception.


Peer might not quite be the right word.  Yes, she's powerful enough that the remaining demi-urges negotiated a truce with her rather than kill her and divide the multiverse *6* ways, but they don't seem to hold her in particular regard.  Simply being powerful doesn't mean that she's not an idiot, scatterbrained, or simply too different physiologically to properly understand human emotion / motivations.

I'd agree though, it's starting to look like she's whimsical and bizarre, but *not* any of the things I just listed.  Now that she has Allison charging off to fight Solomon, the question is whether she's truly doing it out of animosity for his swole-iness, or if she has some deeper motive.

----------


## Hamsandlich

New Offering

PATH TO GLORY

----------


## Tom Tearcamel

Is that an orange clad sorceress, and her whole entourage giving  our protagonist the Stink-Eye?  :Small Mad: 

Also, Kangarookin? Theres a bunch of them and they look awesome.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Honest Tiefling

> Is that an orange clad sorceress, and her whole entourage giving  our protagonist the Stink-Eye?


Possibly, or it could be a case of Resting...Uh...Lady Dog Face. Or she's just the type to give everyone the ol' stink-eye.

----------


## Eldan

New Offering. Which honestly feels a bit fillerish.

----------


## sihnfahl

> New Offering. Which honestly feels a bit fillerish.


Well, it does seem to be a trope.  'Have to cull the competitors to those who actually can fight...'
Punching machines in DragonBall...
The tests at Genkai's in Yu Yu Hakusho...
The evaluation and paperwork in One Punch Man...
So...

----------


## Honest Tiefling

It'll be a little weird if we just skipped straight to the main boss. I think the montage does its job in establishing events without dragging things out.

And we do learn that plenty of Solomon's minions are taking notes on the competitors. So there is at least some info present.

And not sure that it means anything, but the scene is painted in shades of blue, perhaps to represent Jadis/Sloth/The Prophecy.

----------


## Aquillion

The real point of this page (and the last one) is to show how Cio's absence is affecting Allison.

Jeez.  Do you want her to be punching a Demiurge on _every single_ page?

----------


## Honest Tiefling

> Jeez.  Do you want her to be punching a Demiurge on _every single_ page?


 :Small Big Grin:  Well...The art is really good, so why not?

----------


## lord_khaine

> And we do learn that plenty of Solomon's minions are taking notes on the competitors. So there is at least some info present.


Its more likely they are grading her performance. 
Since its a qualifier, then they need to keep track of how well she does across a line of tests, clearly designed to leave several types of combatants able to pass.

----------


## Aquillion

New page.

Like I said, that last page was about Allison's reactions.

----------


## lord_khaine

And.. she is back to being an idiot...

----------


## Onyavar

My guess: Another angel, probably Juggernaut himself, will slip into WhiteChain's shell, while his crew holds him captive. More boring, if the Thorns just remind WhiteChain of their task.

That way, Allison is surrounded with no reliable confidents: Cio was left behind, WhiteChain is a thorn plant, Nyave a worm plant, and Princess is... huh. Maybe Princess gets their chance to shine now? Because they are such a nice person?

Yeah, somehow I think that Allison is now on her own again.

----------


## Aquillion

> My guess: Another angel, probably Juggernaut himself, will slip into WhiteChain's shell, while his crew holds him captive.


Doubt they can do that.  If they could, why would they have sent White Chain back in the first place?

----------


## -D-

> Doubt they can do that.  If they could, why would they have sent White Chain back in the first place?


Because most of Angels are murderous and would kill Allison several times before finishing their task?

----------


## lord_khaine

> Because most of Angels are murderous and would kill Allison several times before finishing their task?


No thats just thorns. 
Regular Angels are just incarnations of LAW.
But i really do doubt one angel can use anothers shell. 

Is more interesting now to see that the cryptic Angel is back.

----------


## Eldan

New Offering. Any bets on if she's still in there? I actually think she is and just had a change of heart after the talking to.

----------


## Hamsandlich

IIRC, according to the depths of Abbadon's lore tumblr, each suit of armor is custom made for each angel. They have maze-like channels on the inside that are keyed to the individual angel across incarnations(like fingerprints). OTOH, Metatron is less like a regular angel now and more like a sapient infectious idea/cognito-hazard that can overwrite the personalities of those exposed to it (this is why White Chain sometimes says "Metatron Lives" when she's stressed out), so encountering 6 Juggernaut might have triggered a relapse.

----------


## lord_khaine

Thats mad. Even for this place. 
Metatron is a Prime Angel. Nothing more. Nothing less.
At least according to what we have evidence for.

----------


## Hamsandlich

Even among the Primes, Metatron is unique: https://killsixbilliondemons.tumblr....in-the-current

----------


## lord_khaine

And that does not make the previous idea any more mad.

----------


## mystic1110

Gog Agog is a single entity, but how would you refer to two Gog Agog that are at least pretending to be distinct personalities? Gogs Agog? Gog Agogs? Gog Agouse?  :Small Big Grin:  :Small Tongue:

----------


## -D-

There is one Gog Agog. In multiple bodies.

----------


## sihnfahl

> There is one Gog Agog. In multiple bodies.


Now, if they weren't fully a hive mind, would they be agog to find out what the other Gog Agogs are agog about?

----------


## lord_khaine

Alright this does make Gog-Agog take a nice jump upwards in my threat estimates. 
If it can do this then it likely has multiple functional bodies, and not just the ability to jump from host to host like i originally though.

Its also likely just about impossible to kill then. 
By anything short of some sort of transcendent attack.
One that bypass the body and hits the soul/mind. But we dont know if any of the demi-urges can do stuff like that.

----------


## -D-

> Now, if they weren't fully a hive mind, would they be agog to find out what the other Gog Agogs are agog about?


Plural of Gog Agog is gogA gog  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Hamsandlich

So, if the Circle of Strength takes place once every thousand turns(each turn being ~3 years), and this is the 313th tournament, then its been roughly over 939,000 years since the Seven slew their rivals and divided the Wheel between each other, assuming Salami Dave held the first Circle within the first millennium of his reign.

----------


## Professor Gnoll

> So, if the Circle of Strength takes place once every thousand turns(each turn being ~3 years), and this is the 313th tournament, then its been roughly over 939,000 years since the Seven slew their rivals and divided the Wheel between each other, assuming Salami Dave held the first Circle within the first millennium of his reign.


You've misread a little- when Abaddon said



> "The contest only occurs every thousand Turns (rotations of the multiverse around Throne), which is a little more than three years..."


 they meant that one thousand turns takes place over that slightly-more-than-three-year-span. Which would mean that the Circle of Strength was begun a little over 900 years ago, which lines up with what the Apprentice says to Maya- if she were alive during the Universal War, she'd be hundreds of years old, rather than almost one million years of age. So if the Circle of Strength has been running since nearly the beginning of the Celestial Empire, allowing for some time for Solomon to make it stable enough to desire to pass on his power, the Universal War was about a thousand years ago from current comic time.

----------


## Gez

> You've misread a little- when Abaddon said
>  they meant that one thousand turns takes place over that slightly-more-than-three-year-span. Which would mean that the Circle of Strength was begun a little over 900 years ago, which lines up with what the Apprentice says to Maya- if she were alive during the Universal War, she'd be hundreds of years old, rather than almost one million years of age. So if the Circle of Strength has been running since nearly the beginning of the Celestial Empire, allowing for some time for Solomon to make it stable enough to desire to pass on his power, the Universal War was about a thousand years ago from current comic time.


From this we can tell that a Turn lasts a little longer than day. For example, with a turn lasting 27 hours, you'd get 1125 days to a thousand turns, which is about three years and a month.

----------


## halfeye

> You've misread a little- when Abaddon said
>  they meant that one thousand turns takes place over that slightly-more-than-three-year-span. Which would mean that the Circle of Strength was begun a little over 900 years ago, which lines up with what the Apprentice says to Maya- if she were alive during the Universal War, she'd be hundreds of years old, rather than almost one million years of age. So if the Circle of Strength has been running since nearly the beginning of the Celestial Empire, allowing for some time for Solomon to make it stable enough to desire to pass on his power, the Universal War was about a thousand years ago from current comic time.


The statement is odd in that 1,000 days is actually less than 3 years.

----------


## lord_khaine

So, if we count Jagganoth as a tool of Metatron, then i actually think Gog-Agog is the 2nd biggest current thread in creation.

----------


## Tom Tearcamel

Oh boy! Powerlevels in different categories. One or more of the testers noticed something with that last category score.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Onyavar

We know that the demiurges know about Allison.

My theory is that Gog-Agog and Solomon are conspiring here, against Allison. They are going to feed her the 108 followers, piecemeal. Then let her fight Solitude Dave.

How else would Goggie be able to "rig" the games, except with Solomon's collaboration.

I think their end goals may be different (Goggie wants to see and host the coolest fighting games since Dragonball, just to be delightfully entertained. Solomon will want to whittle Allison down, then set her against Zaid so that he may take 'his' power off of her.
The pretext of inheriting Solomon's realm is also true, but a side-goal this time. At least according to this speculation/theory.

----------


## lord_khaine

> We know that the demiurges know about Allison.
> 
> My theory is that Gog-Agog and Solomon are conspiring here, against Allison. They are going to feed her the 108 followers, piecemeal. Then let her fight Solitude Dave.
> 
> How else would Goggie be able to "rig" the games, except with Solomon's collaboration.
> 
> I think their end goals may be different (Goggie wants to see and host the coolest fighting games since Dragonball, just to be delightfully entertained. Solomon will want to whittle Allison down, then set her against Zaid so that he may take 'his' power off of her.
> The pretext of inheriting Solomon's realm is also true, but a side-goal this time. At least according to this speculation/theory.


... seriously.. ?
Why on earth would they conspire about anything?
Also, Solomon David is the demi-urge hosting the event. No idea whom Solitude Dave is. 

Anyway, this theory makes no sense. Allison cant beat a trained devil alone.
She has absolutely no chance against any demi-urge in a serious fight. Solomon dont have any reason to whittle her down. 
And if Solomon wanted more power, then its hardly likely he would be trying so hard to hand over his empire. 
If he just wanted a big tournament he could settle prize of a billion dollar or so.

----------


## Onyavar

> ... seriously.. ?
> Why on earth would they conspire about anything?


Why would two demiurges conspire about anything! Seriously, yes. Conspiring is the only activity demiurges do together when not fighting. In groups of five, of two and of six. 




> Anyway, this theory makes no sense. Allison cant beat a trained devil alone.
> She has absolutely no chance against any demi-urge in a serious fight. Solomon dont have any reason to whittle her down. 
> And if Solomon wanted more power, then its hardly likely he would be trying so hard to hand over his empire. 
> If he just wanted a big tournament he could settle prize of a billion dollar or so.


Allison is currently partaking in the tournament to find her friend Zaid, and the very plot line depends on her being able to draw blood from Solomon. She needs to face him eventually, if that plot point is played straight.

But if Dave and Goggie manage to place Zaid in the tournament as well, so that he can search her power in the penultimate fight before facing Solomon, then Zaid would depend on a whittled-down Allison.

Though, I stated it's just a speculative theory. K6BD regularly surprises me.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Why would two demiurges conspire about anything! Seriously, yes. Conspiring is the only activity demiurges do together when not fighting. In groups of five, of two and of six.


Fair enough, i should have been more specific then, and said conspire about this where they seemingly dont have any common ground, and dont need to conspire.




> Allison is currently partaking in the tournament to find her friend Zaid, and the very plot line depends on her being able to draw blood from Solomon. She needs to face him eventually, if that plot point is played straight.
> 
> But if Dave and Goggie manage to place Zaid in the tournament as well, so that he can search her power in the penultimate fight before facing Solomon, then Zaid would depend on a whittled-down Allison.
> 
> Though, I stated it's just a speculative theory. K6BD regularly surprises me.


And im just saying, this one does not make any sort of sense. 
Its not something they need to do any conspiring for. If SD want Allison to face Zach, then all he has to do is tell a official when those two will fight. 
But i cant see any sort of reason for why SD would want to set that up, or anything he would gain from it.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

Currently, I would assume that Solomon doesn't know that Allison takes part in the tournament. Gog-agog has manipulated Allison in joining, and I don't think she has told Solomon about it.

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah thats suposedly the official story. 
And the one that makes the most sense.
I do find it more likely that the demi-urges are plotting against one another.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

> Yeah thats suposedly the official story. 
> And the one that makes the most sense.
> I do find it more likely that the demi-urges are plotting against one another.


And lets be honest, Gog-agog would totally hide that Alison is in the tournament just to see the look on Solomon's face when he finds out.  :Small Wink:

----------


## lord_khaine

Hmm.. i do think your attributing far to benevolent motivation to it.
We are talking about something that blew up a human just to make a flashy entrance.
But i also think its clear that its not ½ the idiot it pretends to be.
Thats just a ruse that makes the remaining demi-urges take it less seriously.

----------


## -D-

Is it just me, or are faces in the last two panels especially derpy?

----------


## lord_khaine

No. Its not just you.
Well.. the artist is clearly experimenting with perspective.
I wont complain. Just pretend i didnt see anything.

----------


## -D-

New one is up. Oof.

----------


## lord_khaine

Wow.. thats a nasty trick. 
Got to hand it to the old goat there. He did not get old though luck alone.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

That is one brutal trick, no wonder he has been one of the unofficial leaders of the parade of fools so far. 




> Hmm.. i do think your attributing far to benevolent motivation to it.
> We are talking about something that blew up a human just to make a flashy entrance.
> But i also think its clear that its not ½ the idiot it pretends to be.
> Thats just a ruse that makes the remaining demi-urges take it less seriously.


Oh, certainly her final plan is something akin full assimliation of the multiverse into the worms collective or something and that sowing chaos in Solomon's empire is useful to her. Its just that I suspect that getting a surprised look on Solomon's face is something that she would enjoy.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## lord_khaine

So, at last reality managed to get though Allisons stupidly thick skull in the only way possible.
Though brute force.
The scary thing is of course then that the guy is just a B+ on a scale that goes all the way up to SS+.

----------


## Leewei

> So, at last reality managed to get though Allisons stupidly thick skull in the only way possible.
> Though brute force.
> The scary thing is of course then that the guy is just a B+ on a scale that goes all the way up to SS+.


*Spoiler*
Show

I get the feeling Allisons stupidly thick skull is exactly what will get her out of this mess.

----------


## lord_khaine

Least it can do after getting her this deep into it  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Tom Tearcamel

That was an extremely satisfying end to the bout. I was expecting a return of the literal Deus ex Machina head-butt, but the callback to her tutelage under White Chain made me smile.

Yes, her cover (snicker*) was blown but I surmise that SD was already aware of her presence. Although, now hes going to have to confront her.

----------


## lord_khaine

He is as such not going to have to do anything.
part of what it means to be a demi-urge is that there isnt anyone around who can really force you to do something you dont want to do.
Well besides another demi-urge. 

So SD can really just pretend he didnt know. Didnt notice. Or dont really care since Allison isnt breaking any rules.

----------


## Onyavar

I agree, SD doesn't have to react. And he'd be a poor demiurge if he hasn't noticed.

He _might_ suspect foul play from other demiurges: Like, a super-powered agent from Incubus or a fighter instance of Gog-Agog, or an emissary from one of the other urges. I say he would suspect the others, if he didn't know about Allison; but of course, he knows she is around, so what's obvious is obvious.

I wonder if that TV appearance is something he planned with Gog-Agog. After all, Allison received the visual just in the right moment.

Also GNN-TV in a K6BD other-world. I knew there are screens around, and lots of other modern machines, but they always looked klunky and/or like relicts. Not purposefully, seamlessly integrated into a designed environment.

----------


## lord_khaine

> He might suspect foul play from other demiurges: Like, a super-powered agent from Incubus or a fighter instance of Gog-Agog, or an emissary from one of the other urges. I say he would suspect the others, if he didn't know about Allison; but of course, he knows she is around, so what's obvious is obvious.


I kinda doubt how big a danger this actually are?
Because.. i mean.. to start with its doubtful they would have such powerful agents hanging around.
If they are powerful enough to harm SD, then they are dangerous enough to place you in risk of a backstabbing. 
And they are so insanely loyal you trust they wont backstab you, then they are to valuable to risk in the arena against SD.

Besides that. Its uncertain if the majority of them even want his kingdom.
I think most of them have their hands full with their own realm.

----------


## lord_khaine

Yup... that.. does bring the God back in Demi-God.
Its likely also the most impressive display of power we have seen so far. 
Or perhaps not direct raw power. Controll. Skill.

----------


## mystic1110

Holder of the word fortnite

----------


## -D-

I see Dave Solomon as more of a Pubg fan.

----------


## SlyGuyMcFly

> I see Dave Solomon as more of a Pubg fan.


Yeah, definitely. Gog-Agog is the Fortnite player. Apex Legends? I think that might be Incubus' jam.

----------


## mystic1110

> I see Dave Solomon as more of a Pubg fan.


You're 100% right.

Mottom is candy crush.

----------


## Eldan

And the dragon forgot the passwords to all his accounts.

----------


## Olinser

GIANT BABY, NOOOOOOOO! I TRUSTED YOU!

Seriously, there's no way he survives this turn of events.

----------


## Tom Tearcamel

Im sure Baby just wants a hug.

----------


## Iruka

Aaaaawwwwww. She came back. :Small Smile:

----------


## Tom Tearcamel

Pretty sure this Babe wouldnt be satisfied with just a hug.  :Small Wink:  :Small Wink:

----------


## gbs5009

Well, this is going to be an interesting mess.  Nothing like giving a being of pure id access to the keys of the universe.

----------


## lord_khaine

Oh yes.. now -this- is a insanely badass way of handling things.
It does provide a very believeable power boost to Allison.
And more importantly, one that feels earned. 

As its mainly building up trust with her devil girlfriend.
That unlocked the devil fusion.

edit.
Yes. Badass Devil fusion confirmed.
The reasoning given for why this is possible. And why its not normal, is believeable.

----------


## Eldan

Hm. Think we've seen Hollows before? Preem Nand's lady minions?

----------


## lord_khaine

Yes those seemed pretty clear examples. They had more or less litterally been hollowed out.
It also seems equally clear that those are just a pale shadow of a true devilskin warrior.

----------


## Eldan

Ooh, and another offering too, so close after the last one. I do love how Gog-Agog's friends Gog-Agog and Gog-Agog just show up when necessary for dramatic tension.

----------


## BRC

> Yes those seemed pretty clear examples. They had more or less litterally been hollowed out.
> It also seems equally clear that those are just a pale shadow of a true devilskin warrior.


I dunno
The "Hollows" described sound like they're basically passive hosts for a Devil. 
Preem's Daughters seemed a little too airheaded for Devils. Maybe that's what Pale Devils sound like when they can talk?

----------


## slayerx

> I dunno
> The "Hollows" described sound like they're basically passive hosts for a Devil. 
> Preem's Daughters seemed a little too airheaded for Devils. Maybe that's what Pale Devils sound like when they can talk?


I feel like they are following the same basic principle; the devil is possessing the human body by placing their mask on them... Thing is though, in the case of the hollows, they hollow out the human so that its nothing more than a convenient shell for them to possess without any kind of interference so it really is JUST the devil. Cio even mentions that was she's doing is NOT normally consensual

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah, that gets rid of that annoying clash of wills.
But of course, it also removes the potential for synergi that means Allicio is going to go though this tournament like a galleon of prune juice though an unprepared digestive system..

----------


## lord_khaine

New Offering!
Where our Heroine(s) develop some out of the box thinking.
https://killsixbilliondemons.com/

----------


## Tom Tearcamel

Pretty excited for this fight. The secret text(I know there is a word for it) if u click on the page made me laugh. *Spoiler: Spoiler*
Show

 Top 10 anime betrayals 
  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## lord_khaine

*Spoiler*
Show


Wow.. that was kinda rotten. 
Picking a fight is one thing. The sneak attack entirely another one.

----------


## Hamsandlich

In all her pompous moralizing, fear of herself, and rejection of violence, White Chain has forgotten the 4th Syllable of Royalty(which she once knew)

The Fourth Syllable of Royalty: Living is an exercise of violence. Exercise of violence is the fate of living

----------


## lord_khaine

Ehh.. are we reading the same comic here?  :Small Confused: 
White Chain is assuming a stance from the first martial art to beat her student into submission.
Thats not a rejection. If it was a date, then Chain would be fooling around at 3rd base with Violence  :Small Tongue: 

Its not violence she has a problem with. Its the assumed lack of wisdom and restraint.

----------


## Hamsandlich

> Ehh.. are we reading the same comic here? 
> White Chain is assuming a stance from the first martial art to beat her student into submission.
> Thats not a rejection. If it was a date, then Chain would be fooling around at 3rd base with Violence 
> 
> Its not violence she has a problem with. Its the assumed lack of wisdom and restraint.


The issue being that White Chain is a hypocrite who jumps to the most judgmental and ill-thought out conclusion possible based on the incorrect and self-defeating dharma of Metatron and 2 Michael. Using "your only talent is violence" as a negative quality (and insult) runs contrary to the Fourth Syllable because Existence is Violence and to be talented in anything is to be talented in Violence. Healers perform Violence against sickness, Peacemakers perform Violence against War. God does Violence against Themself.

Prior to Cio's arrival, Allison _did_ recite the trigram mantra.

----------


## BRC

"Violence" is a very loaded term in K6BD, being used both in terms of the common definition (Doing Harm to Others), and in a sense of exerting your own will upon others/the universe. 

White Chain is an Angel, an agent of the Law. In one sense, Angels are very Violent, because they are very skilled at inflicting harm on others.
In another sense, they are not violent, because they are agents of the Law, who (theoretically) do not act upon their own will. 

A Sword is a tool of Violence, but it it not itself Violent.

White Chain, who we've been told is especially Lawful, even for an Angel, was helping Allison because she saw Allison as a tool for giving  the Key to Zaid, who the angels think is the true Heir.

"Your Only Talent is Violence" here I don't think refers to Allison's abilities as an Asskicker. As we've seen, she's barely competent once you get past ordinary street thugs. Until Cio showed up to actually USE the massive power battery the Key provides, Allison wasn't much of a fighter.

What Allison IS, is incredibly willful, which, to an entity of Law like White Chain, is a problem. 

Look at the whole statement "Would You Return the Key to the Rightful Heir? You whose only talent is Violence?" It's not that Allison is a brute who is only good at hurting things, it's that she's not going to obediently give up the incredible power in her brow in the name of somebody else's plan.She's either going to fail, or she's going to be another Demiurge, another mad warlord whose will can only be checked by other, equally mad warlords.

----------


## Doran

Update

title text
*Spoiler*
Show

ORA!ORA!ORA!ORA!ORA!ORA!ORA!ORA!ORA!

----------


## Shogo

Wow. I guess I'm in the minority for thinking White Chain is in the right.

Oh well. At least the fight is looking interesting.

----------


## -D-

> Wow. I guess I'm in the minority for thinking White Chain is in the right.
> 
> Oh well. At least the fight is looking interesting.


You and me both. If Solomon David wasn't there, this thing would be a collateral damage bloodbath.

----------


## Aquillion

> You and me both. If Solomon David wasn't there, this thing would be a collateral damage bloodbath.


I mean he _is_ there and he's expected to keep the fight contained, so I don't think that complaint is entirely fair - it's reasonable for Allicio to depend on that fact.

That said, she's not wrong about Allison, sure, but she's 100% wrong that there's any reason to think giving the key to Zaid would make things better, and there's lots of reasons to think it might make things worse (starting with the fact that everyone pushing to do so is a horrible person with terrible motivations.)

----------


## Olinser

> I mean he _is_ there and he's expected to keep the fight contained, so I don't think that complaint is entirely fair - it's reasonable for Allicio to depend on that fact.
> 
> That said, she's not wrong about Allison, sure, but she's 100% wrong that there's any reason to think giving the key to Zaid would make things better, and there's lots of reasons to think it might make things worse (starting with the fact that everyone pushing to do so is a horrible person with terrible motivations.)


Yes.

TBH, the very fact that the Demiurges want to give the key to Zaid should be enough to say he shouldn't get it.

Given those 2 choices, from what we've seen of Zaid, the choice is easily Allison.

That's not to say Allison SHOULD get it in a void.

The problem is that it seems to be a binary choice strangled by prophecy. The only question is how you interpret the prophecy, and the ONLY interpretations possible seem to be either Zaid or Allison. 

'Somebody else' or even 'nobody' doesn't seem to be an option.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I mean he is there and he's expected to keep the fight contained, so I don't think that complaint is entirely fair - it's reasonable for Allicio to depend on that fact.


And because of that she is in fact handling the fight in the way that would cause the least amount of bloodshed.
Just kicking the arena out beneath people's feet is the simplest way to remove them from the competition. 

It does also highlight the staggering difference between Solomon and everyone else though. 
Not just in strenght. But also in skill.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Wow. I guess I'm in the minority for thinking White Chain is in the right.
> 
> Oh well. At least the fight is looking interesting.


I mean, I'm honestly not sure. The universe is clearly a dreary place and only getting worse, and to look at things you do have to start wondering if Alison is the person going to make it better. At the same time, she really may be the destined heir who can work at fixing some of this **** despite the horror and violence that she seems to leave in her wake.

----------


## -D-

> I mean he _is_ there and he's expected to keep the fight contained, so I don't think that complaint is entirely fair - it's reasonable for Allicio to depend on that fact.
> 
> That said, she's not wrong about Allison, sure, but she's 100% wrong that there's any reason to think giving the key to Zaid would make things better, and there's lots of reasons to think it might make things worse (starting with the fact that everyone pushing to do so is a horrible person with terrible motivations.)


Allicio? Is she a split personality JoJo villain   :Small Tongue: 

I never said White Chain is in the right. But keep in mind, everyone pushing White Chain about the key, is an Angel. So much more trustworthy than a Devil (ancient evil), or a human (ancestor of Angel killer).




> I mean, I'm honestly not sure. The universe is clearly a dreary place and only getting worse, and to look at things you do have to start wondering if Alison is the person going to make it better. At the same time, she really may be the destined heir who can work at fixing some of this **** despite the horror and violence that she seems to leave in her wake.


Knowing the universe, violence is inescapable, should mean life gets worse.

----------


## mystic1110

> "Violence" is a very loaded term in K6BD, being used both in terms of the common definition (Doing Harm to Others), and in a sense of exerting your own will upon others/the universe. 
> 
> White Chain is an Angel, an agent of the Law. In one sense, Angels are very Violent, because they are very skilled at inflicting harm on others.
> In another sense, they are not violent, because they are agents of the Law, who (theoretically) do not act upon their own will. 
> 
> A Sword is a tool of Violence, but it it not itself Violent.
> 
> White Chain, who we've been told is especially Lawful, even for an Angel, was helping Allison because she saw Allison as a tool for giving  the Key to Zaid, who the angels think is the true Heir.
> 
> ...


This 100%.

This is the way I see it:

Violence in KSBD had two meanings: Harm or Will.

You can even look at the two in the grid and align it with the Temperature / Color grid of the four groups of Inheritors:


White Flame (ANTI-WILL)
Black Flame (WILL)

Extreme Temp (Cold/Hot) (HARM)
Protectors
Destroyers

Moderate Temp (Cool/Warm)(ANTI-HARM)
Sustainers
Perceivers



As such you can guess the average (there are always exceptions)way each of the four inheritors are going to act. 

Protectors (Angels) are supposed to prevent Acts and abuse of the Will. They are not against Harm as a principal and use harm to enforce law that corrals acts of the Will. In fact that is what Law is. It is ritualized and sanctioned Harm that curtails Will. The theory is that Will leads to Harm, and if you use Harm to prevent greater Harm you should, as long as you are not willful about it.

Destroyers (Devils) are Will personified and prove the theory of the Protectors that Will always leads to Harm. In fact Destroyers use Harm to sustain their Will. For them Harm and Will are in fact indistinguishable.

Sustainers (Servants) are supposed (again on average, clearly their are exceptions. In fact you can see that the story of KSBD is the dangers of when individuals do not act as they are supposed to per this rubric) to neither Harm NOR be willful. They are supposed to serve (forfeit their will to the will of another or the will of a group).

Perceivers (Humans) are supposed to be willful and NOT Harmful. They were a mistake but the idea seems to be that the warm black flame was supposed to encourage creativity and not destruction. Protectors can point to how when a Perceiver becomes TOO willful it will lean towards destruction rather than creativity, which is why Law exists to manage the will allowing the supposed natural tendency to reduce harm to flourish. 

One can look at White Chain's journey thus as follows:

White Chain trains Alison in the tools of Harm in the hopes that doing so Alison would recognize the dangers of Will. In doing so White Chain was Wrong as such training was against Alison's nature as a Perceiver which is against Harm and Willful. Clio on the other hand is closer aligned to Alison as they are both creatures of WILL. However Clio is also wrong as she also represents Harm as Will, the idea that only the strong can be free and that the weak always have other's will imposed on them. White Chain recognizes that that is the philosophy of the Demiurges. White Chain also recognizes that s/he was wrong as well. The solution is that Alison need to be instructed by a servant or another human in the ideals of Non-Harm.

----------


## Rydiro

> The Fourth Syllable of Royalty: Living is an exercise of violence. Exercise of violence is the fate of living


Do you have a link where the syllables are explained/ their meanings summarized?

----------


## Kaptin Keen

Um. Ok, so apparently 'everyone knows who that is'. Except I don't - I have no idea. Who is the coughing guy?

----------


## sihnfahl

> Um. Ok, so apparently 'everyone knows who that is'. Except I don't - I have no idea. Who is the coughing guy?


10 Vigilant Gaze Purges the Horizon.

Seen ... here

----------


## mystic1110

> Um. Ok, so apparently 'everyone knows who that is'. Except I don't - I have no idea. Who is the coughing guy?


10 Vigilant Gaze Purges the Horizon

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> 10 Vigilant Gaze Purges the Horizon.
> 
> Seen ... here





> 10 Vigilant Gaze Purges the Horizon


Ahh yes. I get it now. It's always surprising to me how anyone manages to remember characters like that - when they're off-screen for months on end =)

Thanks.

----------


## Spacewolf

I really liked the comb story. Simple but meaningful.

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah. So did it. It also served as a nice reminder for White chain.
And oh god Juggernaut continues to be end-boss levels of nasty.

----------


## Eldan

Mostly because he strikes first while the other angels are still praying. We haven't really seen Gaze let loose so far.

----------


## lord_khaine

Perhaps, but i doubt thats the explanation.
Gaze was still in the middle of a technique, we saw his hand close around a miniature star as he were just about to complete the prayer,
and punch Juggernaut. But Juggernaut completed its technique faster, and so it got Gaze as he was moving in.

And it also makes sense Juggernaut is a lot stronger. 
Angels condense and grow stronger as they age. And Juggernaut is only on its 6th incarnation.

Edit.

Alright what the heck is up with Juggernaut?
Once more it (she?) lost interest in the fight. 
After displaying an almost beastial degree of savagery moments before.

----------


## Olinser

HADOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKEN!  !

But naw in all seriousness, this has 'No Sell' written all over it. It doesn't look like they know about the wheel, he's just blasting JuggerNot.

----------


## Rydiro

> TBH, the very fact that the Demiurges want to give the key to Zaid should be enough to say he shouldn't get it.


Do they though? Inky & Gog are Allison fans. Mottom was one, fell out of love.
Jagganoth, Mammon and Jadis dont care for different reasons.
Leaves Solomon, who is just keeping an eye on Zaid. I'm quite sure solomon thinks he is himself better suited to be king, even if it would be an oh so terrible burden.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Leaves Solomon, who is just keeping an eye on Zaid. I'm quite sure solomon thinks he is himself better suited to be king, even if it would be an oh so terrible burden.


Oh crud.. this again? what the heck is there with people being utterly unable to see past their own crazy bias against Solomon?
Solomon is a thousand year old statesman. Of course he is better suited for the role of king than a random teenager. 
Its also just very well established that he -does- indeed no want the job. He want to progress towards becomming true royalty.




> But naw in all seriousness, this has 'No Sell' written all over it. It doesn't look like they know about the wheel, he's just blasting JuggerNot.


Well, the Wheel is seemingly nowhere close?
So if nothing else, blasting JuggerNot does get rid of it for the forseable future.

----------


## Olinser

> Oh crud.. this again? what the heck is there with people being utterly unable to see past their own crazy bias against Solomon?
> Solomon is a thousand year old statesman. Of course he is better suited for the role of king than a random teenager. 
> Its also just very well established that he -does- indeed no want the job. He want to progress towards becomming true royalty.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the Wheel is seemingly nowhere close?
> So if nothing else, blasting JuggerNot does get rid of it for the forseable future.


No its definitely there, we just saw it on the ground 2 comics ago when White Chain pulled JuggerNot out.

----------


## lord_khaine

Ah yeah. Sharp eyes. So thats Juggernauts backup plan. 
Or perhaps more precisely escape plan. The Wheel is hidden in the void. 

Well then im honestly even more certain this will mean the end of JuggerNot.
As far as i can see, the Wheel acts a bit like a Lich Phylactery. Or a second/backup body for Juggernaut. 

Because we also saw Juggernaut were in her? thorn body before White Chain pulled them off to the void.

----------


## Narkis

> Oh crud.. this again? what the heck is there with people being utterly unable to see past their own crazy bias against Solomon?
> Solomon is a thousand year old statesman. Of course he is better suited for the role of king than a random teenager. 
> Its also just very well established that he -does- indeed no want the job. He want to progress towards becomming true royalty.


Yeah, can you believe that people think the immortal tyrant is actually _lying_? Everyone knows that all dictators everywhere tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Especially when they say that ruling is such a burden, they'd give it up in a heartbeat if they could, but they are a servant of the people and there is no one else who could serve the people half as well. After all, just about every despot has said something like that at some point, so it must be true, right?

----------


## Spacewolf

Considering all we've seen it does show the level of Solomon and the other demis if in however many years no one has managed to spill a drop of his blood, presumably this year is abit of a standout but not by that much. 

I do wonder if Gaze is going to get one shotted to once again show Alison is still so far away from where she needs to be.

----------


## JavaScribe

If Vigilant Gaze somehow wins, what do you think he will ask for?

----------


## Olinser

> If Vigilant Gaze somehow wins, what do you think he will ask for?


A telescope.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Yeah, can you believe that people think the immortal tyrant is actually lying? Everyone knows that all dictators everywhere tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Especially when they say that ruling is such a burden, they'd give it up in a heartbeat if they could, but they are a servant of the people and there is no one else who could serve the people half as well. After all, just about every despot has said something like that at some point, so it must be true, right?


I certainly do believe some people in a lot of cases are fools, who put their bias above their head.
And then try to justify it to themselves with "oh he must be lying, i dislike him so when his actions treaten my world view, they have to be an elaborate ruse"
Except we dont actually have any evidence of Solomon lying. 

And got a decently sized mountain of evidence to the contrary.  
Solomon -is- the ultimate ruler of his realm. He dont need to lie to anyone. 
he certainly dont need to go though the massive chore of repeatedly holding DBZ-style tournaments to find someone strong enough to take over.

I also cant understand why its such a strange concept to people, that after playing Civilisation X for a couple hundred years it gets stale,
 and makes you want to move on to something else.

edit.
Bam!
Yes that was a pretty clear ending to the fight. Juggernaut did not manage to get up from tha blow. 
Even if it did not break the shell, it did cripple it. Poor Juggernaut, all the spikes go the wrong way now :D

Though at the same time, i think Gaze will concede the fight against Dave, since its not a price he wants.
He was just there for White Chain.

----------


## Rydiro

> And got a decently sized mountain of evidence to the contrary.  
> Solomon -is- the ultimate ruler of his realm. He dont need to lie to anyone. 
> he certainly dont need to go though the massive chore of repeatedly holding DBZ-style tournaments to find someone strong enough to take over.


He probably needs to lie at least to himself. "You still think you are the good guy", Mottom said. Another problem, he deems himself more important to his empire than he actually is. His ruling practices are questionable in several points, including thinking that a tournament is actually a good method of choosing a ruler.

EDIT: And I think he enjoys the tournaments, even if their true purpose isn't clear yet imo.

----------


## lord_khaine

> He probably needs to lie at least to himself. "You still think you are the good guy", Mottom said. Another problem, he deems himself more important to his empire than he actually is. His ruling practices are questionable in several points, including thinking that a tournament is actually a good method of choosing a ruler.
> 
> EDIT: And I think he enjoys the tournaments, even if their true purpose isn't clear yet imo.


No. Thats unfortunately not the case. 
SD is 100% as important for his empire as he think. And a tournament is one of the better ways to pick a ruler.

Since without SD, the empire dont have any protection against other demi-urges.
Or even potentially rampaging angels.

Thats also why there is a tournament. If your not at least strong enough to draw blood from SD.
Then your not strong enough to protect the empire.

----------


## Rydiro

> Since without SD, the empire dont have any protection against other demi-urges.
> Or even potentially rampaging angels.


Which doesn't mean he actually needs to rule. Its like saying every state needs to be a military/police state, because there are criminals and hostile nations.
Solomon could limit himself to demiurge meetings and being the celestial empires nuclear option. And otherwise pursue royalty. Like gog-agog; she doesnt care about ruling, her worlds are protected just fine by the pact. She is rather a superstar/pest.

----------


## -D-

New Comic!

*Spoiler: TOURNEY*
Show



An obvious choice. Man, say what you want about King Salami, but he has style.

Dishing out DQ left and right. It subverted my expectations unless Alisson decides to strike at him, which given her exhaustion is unlikely.

----------


## Iruka

I see a bunch of fine red mist coming up.

----------


## JavaScribe

I can see two people smart enough to run, and one, maybe two people smart enough to stay in place.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Which doesn't mean he actually needs to rule. Its like saying every state needs to be a military/police state, because there are criminals and hostile nations.
> Solomon could limit himself to demiurge meetings and being the celestial empires nuclear option. And otherwise pursue royalty. Like gog-agog; she doesnt care about ruling, her worlds are protected just fine by the pact. She is rather a superstar/pest.


It is true Solomon dont need to rule. He is likely the ultimate autority. So he can delegate out as much as he want.
But i dont think he can pursue royalty when still attached to the role of the Celestrial Empire's Father. 

Also, yeah i spot 4 people in total who passes on the Darvin award. 
The moment SD made the arena should have everyone who isnt angel tier realize its safer to aim for bronce.

----------


## JavaScribe

This does seem to be the overall moral of the story. The wise, understanding both the odds and the consequences, sit and do nothing. But the fools act. The vast, _vast_ majority of them suffer horrible deaths, but the tiny number of lucky mangled survivors get stuff done. Sure, the stuff they get done is usually for the worse, but very rarely, it's even for the better, and even for the worse is still better than sitting and doing nothing.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

So ... like the nice guy that he is, Solomon is going to personally and unceremoniously murderize each and every single one of them. Not a villain at all.

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah. Not a villain. I do agree.
Since each and every one of them is charging towards him with a raised weapon. 
After having gotten a very clear demonstration of just how powerful Solomon is. 
They 100 % picked this fight of their own free will.

Where it should even be pointed out. Each and every one of the maniacs rushing towards Solomon were offered a large reward for not doing so.
Land. Titles. Wealth.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

Pretty sure this is what they signed up for anyway.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Narkis

Yes. I generally think Solomon is a brutal, murderous, oppressive dictator who deserves nothing but death. But in this case, he's 100% justified in brutally murdering the people who are satisfied by nothing less than replacing him as Emperor of 1/7th of the multiverse, and are attacking him for it at this very moment. He has already given them every chance to bow out.

----------


## -D-

> So ... like the nice guy that he is, Solomon is going to personally and unceremoniously murderize each and every single one of them. Not a villain at all.


He's not nice, but between the one who would burn you for the crime of occupying nearby space, witch that would turn you into a tree, demented dragon that would kill you with their traps, sentinent swarm superstar that would turn you Borg, monster that would turn you into a shell of no meaning, Solomon wins by default. Jadis is close second, but I assume her realm is depression gave manifest. 

They saw what he could do. He offered them reward for participating and told them the penalty. People charging at him either have too much confidence or survival instinct of lemmings.

----------


## slayerx

> Yeah. Not a villain. I do agree.
> Since each and every one of them is charging towards him with a raised weapon. 
> After having gotten a very clear demonstration of just how powerful Solomon is. 
> They 100 % picked this fight of their own free will.
> 
> Where it should even be pointed out. Each and every one of the maniacs rushing towards Solomon were offered a large reward for not doing so.
> Land. Titles. Wealth.


here's the question i would ask... How many of these fighters are here because they wanted a piece of Solomon?

Pretty much the main reasons people would be willing to give up Land, Wealth and Titles to attack Solomon is because they hate him and entered this tournament for a chance to kill him. Heck even one who wanted to take his key and his power would simply take the reward and just wait for the next tournament if they had an ounce of sense. I'm willing to bet Solomon knows this and its why he made this offer. He wants to make everyone think he's being benevolent while making all his enemies seems like they are the irrational ones, when many of them may have been his past victims. He knows they hate him, he knows if given the chance to to attack him they will, and he knows he can kill them all. Frankly, I would say a truly benevolent man would not give people the opportunity to make a pointless suicidal charge when he knows they would take it. 

In many ways Solomon seems like a great king. He built a grand kingdom and treats his people well... but what about the rest of the multiverse? Did Solomon build his kingdom though simple hard work, or did he build it on the sacrifices of many OTHER kingdoms? And one may ask, if Solomon shows up on your world saying he will make it part of his own to make it better while making his empire greater; would he actually respect "no" as an answer? Cause if not, then things would not work out well for the people who liked their world and didn't want to be part of his empire

----------


## lord_khaine

> here's the question i would ask... How many of these fighters are here because they wanted a piece of Solomon?
> 
> Pretty much the main reasons people would be willing to give up Land, Wealth and Titles to attack Solomon is because they hate him and entered this tournament for a chance to kill him. Heck even one who wanted to take his key and his power would simply take the reward and just wait for the next tournament if they had an ounce of sense. I'm willing to bet Solomon knows this and its why he made this offer. He wants to make everyone think he's being benevolent while making all his enemies seems like they are the irrational ones, when many of them may have been his past victims. He knows they hate him, he knows if given the chance to to attack him they will, and he knows he can kill them all. Frankly, I would say a truly benevolent man would not give people the opportunity to make a pointless suicidal charge when he knows they would take it.
> 
> In many ways Solomon seems like a great king. He built a grand kingdom and treats his people well... but what about the rest of the multiverse? Did Solomon build his kingdom though simple hard work, or did he build it on the sacrifices of many OTHER kingdoms? And one may ask, if Solomon shows up on your world saying he will make it part of his own to make it better while making his empire greater; would he actually respect "no" as an answer? Cause if not, then things would not work out well for the people who liked their world and didn't want to be part of his empire


Oh gods, this again? here we got a prime example of irrational hate. 
You have straight up managed to make up a mini story about how awful Solomon is, based on nothing besides that you hate him yourself. 

None of this is supported by the comic. Solomon isnt generally hated. We straight up have word of god on him being seen as harsh but just. 
And he dont need to make anyone think anything. He is god. He can do what he want. he does not need to make people see him as anything. 
No, the reason for why those people charged in is the simplest. They were blinded by greed and pride.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

If you're nigh-all-powerful .... and nice, ok? Then maybe you could be merciful - rather than slaughter hundreds of people for the enjoyment of the audience, and yourself in particular, if you were a benevolent person, you might eject them from the arena relatively unscathed. It would fulfill the same purpose, and require no bloodshed.

If you're nigh-all-powerful, and an utter villain, there's really no conflict - you murder them all, no questions asked. That'll teach 'em.

Make no mistake: He choses murder. Given a wide array of un-insane options at his disposal - he picks the one that let's him murder the most people.

----------


## -D-

> If you're nigh-all-powerful .... and nice, ok? Then maybe you could be merciful - rather than slaughter hundreds of people for the enjoyment of the audience, and yourself in particular, if you were a benevolent person, you might eject them from the arena relatively unscathed. It would fulfill the same purpose, and require no bloodshed.
> 
> If you're nigh-all-powerful, and an utter villain, there's really no conflict - you murder them all, no questions asked. That'll teach 'em.
> 
> Make no mistake: He choses murder. Given a wide array of un-insane options at his disposal - he picks the one that lets him murder the most people.


Anyone that was merciful and nice was exterminated in the Demiurge wars hundreds or thousands of years ago. 

If Dave was really going to let them live, he'd just be seen as weak by other demiurges. I mean they can throw their warriors at him, and he'll spend himself to spare them. Then send another wave and another. There aren't any decent choices here. You show yourself as anything less than a bloodthirsty tyrant and the other six gank-up on you to take your Key.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> Anyone that was merciful and nice was exterminated in the Demiurge wars hundreds or thousands of years ago. 
> 
> If Dave was really going to let them live, he'd just be seen as weak by other demiurges. I mean they can throw their warriors at him, and he'll spend himself to spare them. Then send another wave and another. There aren't any decent choices here. You show yourself as anything less than a bloodthirsty tyrant and the other six gank-up on you to take your Key.


While this is all propably true, that's all a matter of demiurge competitiveness. It's separate from morals. So what you're saying is that all the demiurges are villains - not that Sal isn't one. 

Also, I think there's a space for being merciful to those who pose no threat to you, that doesn't cost you any demiurge street-cred.

----------


## -D-

> While this is all propably true, that's all a matter of demiurge competitiveness. It's separate from morals. So what you're saying is that all the demiurges are villains - not that Sal isn't one. 
> 
> Also, I think there's a space for being merciful to those who pose no threat to you, that doesn't cost you any demiurge street-cred.


Yeah, they are all different flavors of villany. I do wonder if Alison becomes this as well.

We're all victims of circumstances. Under right conditions we could celebrate anything, even eating babies as being the morally right thing to do. 

How would mercy against those who attack you be in any way beneficial to a wannabe demiurge? If Dave was that merciful, he'd been already dead. Everyone else just kills their opposition and you leave your weaker opponents alive. Good luck now you have to deal with everyone else and the riff raff you spared.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> Yeah, they are all different flavors of villany. I do wonder if Alison becomes this as well.
> 
> We're all victims of circumstances. Under right conditions we could celebrate anything, even eating babies as being the morally right thing to do. 
> 
> How would mercy against those who attack you be in any way beneficial to a wannabe demiurge? If Dave was that merciful, he'd been already dead. Everyone else just kills their opposition and you leave your weaker opponents alive. Good luck now you have to deal with everyone else and the riff raff you spared.


Villainy creates opposition. If you kill all your enemies - you get even more enemies. This is the basic conundrum of villainy.

----------


## -D-

> Villainy creates opposition. If you kill all your enemies - you get even more enemies. This is the basic conundrum of villainy.


Depends. Acts of both good and evil can net you enemies. 

Violence is the basic tenet of K6BD. Anyone having a vendetta against the immortal demigod is delusional, barring Key wielders and strongest members of their style of combat.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> Depends. Acts of both good and evil can net you enemies. 
> 
> Violence is the basic tenet of K6BD. Anyone having a vendetta against the immortal demigod is delusional, barring Key wielders and strongest members of their style of combat.


Generally though, good will net you more goodwill than evil. 

Obviously, within the context of K6BD, violence is the key note around which most (or even all) things revolve - it's that kind of comic. But morality, to my mind, cannot be interpreted solely in the context of this comic, that's ... well, pointless. Morality within an entirely imaginary framework cannot be morality. So to speak.

----------


## lord_khaine

> If you're nigh-all-powerful .... and nice, ok? Then maybe you could be merciful - rather than slaughter hundreds of people for the enjoyment of the audience, and yourself in particular, if you were a benevolent person, you might eject them from the arena relatively unscathed. It would fulfill the same purpose, and require no bloodshed.


Except. Someone -did- already eject them from the arena relatively unscathed. 
And showed them just how insignificant they were in the grand scheme of things. As the person who ejected them were then trashed herself by an angel.
Then given the chance, they still decide to pick up their swords and run back in again. After having been told they had already won riches and fame.
But they could not control their greed. Live by the sword, die by the sword. The world is likely better off without them and their lack of restraint.

Something more important that got blocked out by the Solomon hate parade though, is god -dam- he is fast. 
Thats Son Goku or flash level of fast. Likely flash fast actually. 
He is covering what 10 meters so fast stuff are hanging frozen in the air.
Or well judging from comments it might be he has frozen time.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> Except.


Except nothing.

It's _totally_ irrelevant what happened before.

Right now, this scene, he's deliberately chosing to murder them all. Nothing else needs to be taken into consideration.

----------


## Narkis

> Except nothing.
> 
> It's _totally_ irrelevant what happened before.
> 
> Right now, this scene, he's deliberately chosing to murder them all. Nothing else needs to be taken into consideration.


Ignoring context is the perfect way to miss the forest for the trees. I'm sure you have a hero you admire, fictional or historic, who at some point had to kill some people for what you consider good reasons. But if you find irrelevant what happened before, they all are nothing but cold-blooded killers. In the entire history of mankind, as well as its collective repository of stories, only Gandhi (and possibly Batman) would qualify as not-killers under your criteria.

----------


## -D-

> Morality within an entirely imaginary framework cannot be morality. So to speak.


Morality itself is an imaginary framework, that depends on situation.

If our species evolved from creatures with different breeding strategy, e.g. giving birth to thousands at once, they would have strong evolutionary pressure to kill most of their eggs. For them being baby eaters could be considered a morally just position. Even a compliment.

So is eating babies morally virtuous? Depends on the context.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> Ignoring context is the perfect way to miss the forest for the trees. I'm sure you have a hero you admire, fictional or historic, who at some point had to kill some people for what you consider good reasons. But if you find irrelevant what happened before, they all are nothing but cold-blooded killers. In the entire history of mankind, as well as its collective repository of stories, only Gandhi (and possibly Batman) would qualify as not-killers under your criteria.


I did not say ignore context. 

In terms of morality, however, there are basically no excuses. If what you're doing is basically evil - it has zero bearing how good your reasons are. Even the classical moral dilemmas ... aren't. It may be 'better' to run the tram over 1 guy rather than 5 - but the only morally good solution is to find another. Stop the tram, or jump off, push the 1 guy to safety, despite having to sacrifice your own life to do it. 

Context is all nice and fluffy, but it does not make evil good. Ever. 




> Morality itself is an imaginary framework, that depends on situation.
> 
> If our species evolved from creatures with different breeding strategy, e.g. giving birth to thousands at once, they would have strong evolutionary pressure to kill most of their eggs. For them being baby eaters could be considered a morally just position. Even a compliment.
> 
> So is eating babies morally virtuous? Depends on the context.


Morality is not imaginary. It may be arbitrary (debatable) but it's most certainly real. 

Now - with all due respect, this is getting progressively more off-topic. And I'm not asking anyone to adopt my morally absolutist stance. All I'm saying is: Solomon is electing to murder everyone in the arena. That makes him a villain.

----------


## halfeye

> Morality is not imaginary.


If you have a proof of that, let's see it. Philosophers have been looking for millenia. Otherwise, you are mistaken.




> Ignoring context is the perfect way to miss the forest for the trees. I'm sure you have a hero you admire, fictional or historic, who at some point had to kill some people for what you consider good reasons. But if you find irrelevant what happened before, they all are nothing but cold-blooded killers. In the entire history of mankind, as well as its collective repository of stories, only Gandhi (and possibly Batman) would qualify as not-killers under your criteria.


There are billions (probably well over 6 billion if the world population is currently 7 billion, more if it's more), of humans who have never directly killed a human.

----------


## -D-

> Morality is not imaginary. It may be arbitrary (debatable) but it's most certainly real.


Ok. Show me a quantuum of morality.




> All I'm saying is: Solomon is electing to murder everyone in the arena. That makes him a villain.


That's  a misrepresentation. Solomon gave everyone a choice - take power,wealth or prestige. Or attack me or anyone else, and I'll kill you.

Whatever he did here, doesn't make him a villain.

----------


## Ibrinar

So if I walked into a bar and said "100 million dollar to whoever beats me, but I will kill you if you try" I am morally (though not legally) in the clear for shooting any that tries? I see the logic but I don't really agree with it. Unnecessarily goading people (who don't even have a real chance against you) in life and death contests does imo put you into villain territory even if they are risking their live willingly. Unnecessarily preying on reckless people is still preying on people.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> If you have a proof of that, let's see it. Philosophers have been looking for millenia. Otherwise, you are mistaken.
> 
> There are billions (probably well over 6 billion if the world population is currently 7 billion, more if it's more), of humans who have never directly killed a human.


That is not correct. Philosophers have been looking for a universal measure of morality. But that morality is a real thing is not in question - not in the least. Color is precisely as much a social construct. Would you like to argue that color is imaginary?




> Ok. Show me a quantuum of morality.
> 
> That's  a misrepresentation. Solomon gave everyone a choice - take power,wealth or prestige. Or attack me or anyone else, and I'll kill you.
> 
> Whatever he did here, doesn't make him a villain.


Yes - it does. It also makes them idiots. 

But it simply doesn't matter what your reasons are. Any time you elect to murder anyone, for any reason - if there are peaceful alternatives you might just as well chose .... you are evil. 

Now. The end. I have nothing more to say on the matter, it has become a major derail, which I did not intend. I only meant to comment, and as a joke, at that.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Except nothing.
> 
> It's totally irrelevant what happened before.
> 
> Right now, this scene, he's deliberately chosing to murder them all. Nothing else needs to be taken into consideration.


Except everything. All of it is relevant. Since your primary assumption is in fact flawed.

Solomon is -not- murdering anyone. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse. 
Since this is in a duel where lethal force is allowed, then it is in fact lawful. 
And since every single person about to die had been warned, then there is indeed valid excuse.

----------


## halfeye

> That is not correct. Philosophers have been looking for a universal measure of morality. But that morality is a real thing is not in question - not in the least. Color is precisely as much a social construct. Would you like to argue that color is imaginary?


Colour is a function of human biology. In physics, there is no colour, or to put it another way, every colour is just light, even colours like gamma rays that humans can't see are perfectly good colours. 

In physics, there is no morality. There is morality as a human idea, but it's pretty clearly a function of human imagination.

----------


## -D-

> So if I walked into a bar and said "100 million dollar to whoever beats me, but I will kill you if you try" I am morally (though not legally) in the clear for shooting any that tries? I see the logic but I don't really agree with it.


To answer that question, you would need to be born in K6BD world. And in that world, I'd say yes. You are right doing that.

Also it would still not be what David said. More appropriate version would be "100 mil if you beat me, 1 mil if you stay put, but I kill anyone that goes after me".

----------


## lord_khaine

> Also it would still not be what David said. More appropriate version would be "100 mil if you beat me, 1 mil if you stay put, but I kill anyone that goes after me".


Yeah this version is a lot more appropriate. And even it isnt completely covering. 
Its missing the bit where you only issue the challenge to the survivors of your gladiator games. 
So everyone has had a chance to think it though. 

And then before giving the challenge you casually smack a polar bear around, to show your not all talk. 
So everyone does know what they are walking into. 

At that point, no i dont think you have a moral obligation to spare any of the people who could not settle for 1 mil.

----------


## -D-

> And then before giving the challenge you casually smack a polar bear around, to show your not all talk. 
> So everyone does know what they are walking into.


If this references smack-talking an Angel, it's talk. Still, **** taking an angel takes some massive balls.

Not to mention, this whole battle royale was done, to stop Gogagog's rigging the game.

To summarize: What David knows is that Gog-agog, a Demiurge, has infiltrated someone in the ring and is rigging matches. Rules of the ring normally are if you are out of field, you surrender or you die. He merely changed the format to PUBG and declared victors in accordance with old rules. He went out of his way to offer anyone formally disqualified, due to rules change, either consolation prize or another strike at him, at the penalty of death. 

It's completely rational thing to do under the circumstances. He suspects Alisson is Agog's agent but doesn't mean Alisson is the only agent. This way they either submit or they die.

----------


## lord_khaine

> If this references smack-talking an Angel, it's talk. Still, **** taking an angel takes some massive balls.


No im as such referencing how SD kept the entire arena up though force of will alone. 
And sheltered the entire audience from Gaze's aura bolt attack without apperent efford. 
Honestly. This is a little like that old tale with the Monkey King and Budha. 
Where just like the Monkey King, the majority of participants were to blind so see what went on.




> Not to mention, this whole battle royale was done, to stop Gogagog's rigging the game.
> 
> To summarize: What David knows is that Gog-agog, a Demiurge, has infiltrated someone in the ring and is rigging matches. Rules of the ring normally are if you are out of field, you surrender or you die. He merely changed the format to PUBG and declared victors in accordance with old rules. He went out of his way to offer anyone formally disqualified, due to rules change, either consolation prize or another strike at him, at the penalty of death.
> 
> It's completely rational thing to do under the circumstances. He suspects Alisson is Agog's agent but doesn't mean Alisson is the only agent. This way they either submit or they die.


As i understood. The rule of the ring was you lose if your either knocked out of the ring, or surrender. 
But because it seemed like Gog Agog was up to something he made it a FFA. 

And i dont think this surprise round has anything to do with Allison or Gog Agog?
Likely what he stated was the pure truth. That as such it was a little unfair for White Chain to have to fight him after emerging from a brutal FFA. 
So now he shows off some of his moves as compensation.

----------


## BRC

He said "It's over, but the only victor (White chain) is in no condition to fight"
White Chain objected, saying that "The emperor says you're in no condition to fight" isn't one of the conditions for disqualification. 

He then responds, yes, that's true. But, if we ARE doing another round, plenty of others were disqualified under conditions they may consider unfair, either because the format switched to Battle Royal, or because Alicio, who was not a valid entrant, smashed up the ring.

I'm moslty just reading this as Lawful Oneupmanship. White Chain called him out on strict adherence to the rules, and he one-upped her by saying "Well, TECHNICALLY, a bunch of these people were not eliminated fairly according to the rules they entered by. So..." 

SD's thing is Pride. When accused, both of ducking out on his own rules, and indirectly of cowardice, his response is to double-down, both on personal danger, AND on how generous his interpretation of the rules is.

----------


## lord_khaine

> He then responds, yes, that's true. But, if we ARE doing another round, plenty of others were disqualified under conditions they may consider unfair, either because the format switched to Battle Royal, or because Alicio, who was not a valid entrant, smashed up the ring.
> 
> I'm moslty just reading this as Lawful Oneupmanship. White Chain called him out on strict adherence to the rules, and he one-upped her by saying "Well, TECHNICALLY, a bunch of these people were not eliminated fairly according to the rules they entered by. So..."


Hmm.. no i think it seems pretty clear the one it might be unfair towards is White Chain. 
He is talking about the warrior who won the bid when saying it might be unjust.

And how would it even work as Lawful Oneupmanship? This bonus round is only an advantage to White Chain.
As the few people smart enough not to take a swing. 

This is more SD trying to be sporting. He is being challenged to a fight by someone already partially crippled from the previous rounds.
So he tries to make things a little more fair by entering into a fresh battle royale himself.




> SD's thing is Pride. When accused, both of ducking out on his own rules, and indirectly of cowardice, his response is to double-down, both on personal danger, AND on how generous his interpretation of the rules is.


You do know the bit about each of the demi-urges having a deadly sin as their theme is entirely fanmade, right?  :Small Confused:

----------


## mystic1110

To me, Solomon is definitely acting immorally* here. He knows, with absolute certainty, that he could kill every other participant with minimum effort and absolutely no risk. He incites their greed with allowing them back into the ring. It doesn't matter if they are attacking him to kill him, he knows they cannot. He might as well have told a million naked babies that he will give them free candy if they manage to touch him and then brought out his automatic weapons. He knows that his response to White Chain will create a whole bunch of needless deaths. It only serves to create the image of his righteousness, that he was attacked by the greedy, that he tried to level the playing field. It is an image. Solomon is all about image. 

That said, the underlying philosophy of might makes right that he adheres to is NOT wrong in this world. Democracy, personal liberties, all take a back seat to survival. The current real world crisis makes clear that most people accept greater restrictions on their right to travel, congregation, etc, if it means safety, and unlike the real world virus the threat in the comic is either slavery, drudgery or non-existence in the hands of any other Demiurge. 

The question is, to me, if Solomon's self-aggrandizement, is then justified? He is important, almost irreplaceable and the cost is the deaths of thousands of persons who were either stupid or greedy on their own. Does it matter that I also believe that he took advantage and entrapped them in their own greed and stupidity? 

At the very least, if not justified, I think his actions may be easily excused. 

*per my standards - let's not get bogged down in debating moral relativism/absolutism - better men and women have tried, still trying, and will try.

----------


## Dragonus45

Hmmm, I think the discussion of the morality of Solomon's actions here is missing a key component other then just the specific actions he took before starting this inevitable slaughter. The part where he _wants_ someone to land just that one blow on him. Yes he is basically setting them up with an offer they refuse to refuse, they really could take that sweet deal but as the alt text said every last one of them honestly believes they have a chance, but at the end of the day his motivation isn't a roundabout excuse to use martial arts bull**** breathing techniques on people and I think that matters.

----------


## mystic1110

They think they have a chance. He, assuredly does not. Again, hes not wrong in recognizing that someone needs to be his equal for him to morally give up his empire, which is why his current action is so obscene. He knows that none of these people are those equals. He is, in my opinion, using this, as you say, to use bull**** breathing techniques on people.

----------


## lord_khaine

No at the moment none of those people really matters to him. 
What he really wants meanwhile is hard to tell. 

It can really be that its all just in the name of fairness to White Chain. 
Wanting to put himself though something of the same as she had been so that they were on a relatively equal footing.

Or perhaps he wanted to warn White Chain off because he did not want to fight her before negotiating privately with Allison?

But what might happen now though, is that Allison is as such in the new game round.

----------


## Dragonus45

> They think they have a chance. He, assuredly does not. Again, hes not wrong in recognizing that someone needs to be his equal for him to morally give up his empire, which is why his current action is so obscene. He knows that none of these people are those equals. He is, in my opinion, using this, as you say, to use bull**** breathing techniques on people.


For all he knows someone out there may well be the one who will do it though, the only way to be sure is give all of them the chance.

----------


## lord_khaine

Nah.. i think its absolutely given, that any of the poor smucks who failed to avoid being kicked out of the ring by Allico,
Would have been blended by Juggernauts Patram Sword Hand Wind of Obliteration attack. 
And if you cant deal with Sword Hand, you should not even think of trying Ki Rata's Total Life Obliteration.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

> But what might happen now though, is that Allison is as such in the new game round.


I don't think she is, as she has been forfeited by submission. But then he said every contestant still remaining in the ring (which is pretty much gone), so...  :Small Confused:

----------


## lord_khaine

> I don't think she is, as she has been forfeited by submission. But then he said every contestant still remaining in the ring (which is pretty much gone), so...


Yeah.. well the point is everyone but White Chain had been disqualified one way or another.
And as such the ring is still there. Even if it cover a wider area now :D

----------


## Kaptin Keen

There's basically only two ways forward though - right? 

Either Sol murder's _everyone_ - or he loses. In other words (since Sol would never go back on his word), either the comic ends because everyones is dead, or it ends because White Chain is now Empress.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

> There's basically only two ways forward though - right? 
> 
> Either Sol murder's _everyone_ - or he loses. In other words (since Sol would never go back on his word), either the comic ends because everyones is dead, or it ends because White Chain is now Empress.


Not Really.

Solomon will crush the fools that decided to fight him in a all vs him battle, then he will duel White Chain. I expect that White Chain will lose, but get a moral victory or how it is called.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> Not Really.
> 
> Solomon will crush the fools that decided to fight him in a all vs him battle, then he will duel White Chain. I expect that White Chain will lose, but get a moral victory or how it is called.


So ... for some unfathomable reason, after Sol does his thing, murdering hundreds for no reason what so ever - he's then going to spare White Chain, again for no reason what so ever. 

Ok, cool.

Edit: Actually, I don't want to be too sarcastic here - there are certainly other ways it could go. For one, Allison could barter her key (is it called a key) for White Chain's life. But that would be a poor argument for the point I'm trying to make - that being that Sol is a psycho-fascist bastard without a straight bone in his body. 

So just .. keep that in sight: I'm not trying to insult anyone (except, possibly, Sol)

----------


## Rakaydos

> So ... for some unfathomable reason, after Sol does his thing, murdering hundreds for no reason what so ever - he's then going to spare White Chain, again for no reason what so ever. 
> 
> Ok, cool.


Or Alison draws the Emperor's blood, disqualifying the Emperor and halting the event, but the enperor says that since she was prevously disqualified, she doesnt get the empire.

----------


## lord_khaine

> So ... for some unfathomable reason, after Sol does his thing, murdering hundreds for no reason what so ever - he's then going to spare White Chain, again for no reason what so ever.


Again. Your still using that word incorrectly  :Small Tongue: 
Murder is unlawful killing without a reason. This is lawful. And have a reason.




> Edit: Actually, I don't want to be too sarcastic here - there are certainly other ways it could go. For one, Allison could barter her key (is it called a key) for White Chain's life. But that would be a poor argument for the point I'm trying to make - that being that Sol is a psycho-fascist bastard without a straight bone in his body.


Well.. we still lack an actual argument for the point your trying to make. 
Since it as such against what the comic is telling and showing. Likely SD -only- has straight bones in his entire body.




> Or Alison draws the Emperor's blood, disqualifying the Emperor and halting the event, but the enperor says that since she was prevously disqualified, she doesnt get the empire.


The Emperor isnt disqualified just because his blood is drawn. Doing so is just the victory condition for the entire event. 
And the prize isnt the empire. Its getting to make a request of the Emperor. And yes you can ask for the empire. 
Or do as Ailison is more likely to do, and ask for Zac.

----------


## Dragonus45

All of these predictions seem to be forgetting the Worm the ****posts hanging around in back ready to make everyone's life more difficult.

----------


## mystic1110

> Murder is unlawful killing without a reason. This is lawful. And have a reason.


Monarchs* cannot Murder by definition. Murder is Killing not Sanctioned by the State. Given that the Monarch is the State and Killing the Monarch does is Automatically Sanctioned.

* Absolute Monarchs that is. Constitutional Monarchs like the British Queen are presumably bound their own laws.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> Murder is unlawful killing without a reason.


No I'm not. 

See - clearly, we disagree. But you have _no idea_ what the law is in this 100% completely imaginary realm. Sure, you can claim that Sol can make the rules out to be whatever he likes - and I can counterclaim that even then, killing innocents is murder no matter who says what label you stick on it. That's all irrelevant. The only point is this: You feel like accepting his right to murder a few hundred random people, and I do not.

But even if that wasn't the point, we're not discussing the finer points of the law. We're discussing morality. And as I said, I'm not a part of that discussion - by choice - because it's off-topic. 

So what I'm discussing is a plot point: I feel fairly confident Sol is going to murder (almost) everyone, then suffer a minor wound for some reason, and renege on his promise. Like a boss.

Although I keep a slight chance open that All trades her key for the life of White Chain - or something along those lines.

----------


## -D-

> No I'm not.


Murder is literally unlawful killing with premeditation. By definition. You saying killing is murder is you going off-rails. This isn't premeditated nor against the law. You might think it's from your perspective, but there is no absolute morality.




> So what I'm discussing is a plot point: I feel fairly confident Sol is going to murder (almost) everyone, then suffer a minor wound for some reason, and renege on his promise.


I don't think this will happen.  Allison might strike out of anger and outside of rules. Angels don't enforce demiurges. Cio might care, but she isn't suicidal.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> Murder is literally unlawful killing with premeditation. By definition. You saying killing is murder is you going off-rails. This isn't premeditated nor against the law. You might think it's from your perspective, but there is no absolute morality.


So .... before someone wrote that law, there couldn't be murder. By definition.

I do not agree. So that's the end of that debate.

----------


## Rakaydos

> So .... before someone wrote that law, there couldn't be murder. By definition.
> 
> I do not agree. So that's the end of that debate.


The word you want is killing. Killing is not always murder, but murder is always killing.

----------


## lord_khaine

> So .... before someone wrote that law, there couldn't be murder. By definition.
> 
> I do not agree. So that's the end of that debate.


Your agreement isnt needed. This isnt a subjective term. 
So yes. There isnt really much to debate.




> I don't think this will happen. Allison might strike out of anger and outside of rules. Angels don't enforce demiurges. Cio might care, but she isn't suicidal.


The relevant bit is if its outside of the rules right now. SD did technically start a new round for everyone.
And im quite certain the Angels wished they could enforce Demiurges :D

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> There isnt really much to debate.


That is precisely accurate.

----------


## Eldan

Murder is a legal term, yes. Without a legal system, even a primitive one, it's not murder.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> Murder is a legal term, yes. Without a legal system, even a primitive one, it's not murder.


No - that's simply not true. You do not get to define language to suit your needs (nor do I, obviously). Language is a living thing, and words mean what people decide they mean. As such, I'm positive you're aware that opposite sides of a conflict will call what the other side is doing murder. 

Actual use of the word defines it's meaning - not a textbook definition.

Also, I utterly refuse to debate semantics. You know _precisely_ that I mean. 

So the definition of the word is _off the table._ If you have an actual point, let's hear it. 

Otherwise, I say we leave well enough alone, and move on.

----------


## -D-

> No - that's simply not true. You do not get to define a language to suit your needs (nor do I, obviously). Language is a living thing, and words mean what people decide they mean. As such, I'm positive you're aware that opposite sides of a conflict will call what the other side is doing murder. 
> 
> Actual use of the word defines it's meaning - not a textbook definition.


Yeah, but no one here uses that term how you use it. So I don't see it your point. I can say murder means a gathering of bikers, does that mean language has evolved - NO.




> So .... before someone wrote that law, there couldn't be murder. By definition.


Yes. It's not a murder. Just some guy killing another.

It's like saying Cannibalism is a crime. 
From your PoV - yes.
PoV of someone in Ancient Greece - yes.
From PoV of someone who grew in Papua New Guinea, it's a sign of respect. For someone in Africa, cannibalism is a part of life.

Any highly debatable thing was at some point probably done by some society. Context dictates which behavior survives. Surviving Behavior is encoded into traditions. Traditions become morality. 




> The relevant bit is if its outside of the rules right now. SD did technically start a new round for everyone.
> And im quite certain the Angels wished they could enforce Demiurges :D


My impression was that only those down in the ring can strike at the emperor. I guess it depends on rules-lawyering. Are White Chain, Cio, Alison in the ring? 

Angels aren't suicidal I think (other than White Chain). If Alison strikes now, she and anyone that defends her are dead, barring interruptions.

EDIT: Corrected, ritual eating was in Papua New Guinea. Not in Africa.

----------


## halfeye

> It's like saying Cannibalism is a crime. I mean, yes from your PoV. Or from PoV of someone in Ancient Greece - yes.
> 
> From PoV of someone who grew in Afrika, it's a time-honored tradition or even a burial rite.


That wasn't typically Africa. The burial rite was Papua New Guinea:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_(disease)

Cannibalism of enemies was pretty widespread in the past:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_cannibalism

----------


## -D-

> That wasn't typically Africa. The burial rite was Papua New Guinea:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_(disease)
> 
> Cannibalism of enemies was pretty widespread in the past:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_cannibalism


You are correct, however my point is that if you look at geographically and chronologically distant countries you see quite different behavior patterns and morality. Some thought pedophilia was ok, some thought cannibalism is ok, some thought revenge or ritual killings were ok.

----------


## lord_khaine

> No - that's simply not true. You do not get to define language to suit your needs (nor do I, obviously). Language is a living thing, and words mean what people decide they mean. As such, I'm positive you're aware that opposite sides of a conflict will call what the other side is doing murder.


Yes. Because opposite sides of a conflict also intentionally use the word incorrectly because they want to frame the narrative.

Thats annoying enough when politicans do so. Even more so when people does so in a forum debate. 
If you want the topic off the table, then you could always start speaking the same language as the rest of us. 

Except of course that murder is more emotionally charged than kill. But if your arguments had enough weight then likely they would not need that weight.
And you could settle for whats actually going on, namely that Solomon is about to kill a lot of hostile combatants.




> My impression was that only those down in the ring can strike at the emperor. I guess it depends on rules-lawyering. Are White Chain, Cio, Alison in the ring?
> 
> Angels aren't suicidal I think (other than White Chain). If Alison strikes now, she and anyone that defends her are dead, barring interruptions.


Well as such, the only ring thats actually left is the one that consist of the arena's floor. 
Everything else got destoryed by someone.

----------


## -D-

> Well as such, the only ring thats actually left is the one that consist of the arena's floor. 
> Everything else got destoryed by someone.


What about part where White Chain, Alison and Cio are?

----------


## lord_khaine

> What about part where White Chain, Alison and Cio are?


I would call that less of a ring, and more Broken Rubble. 

Also, in a new comic.

Mega Kill!
Super Kill!
Hyper Kill!
Monster Kill!
Utra Mega Hyper Monster Kill!
Flawless Total Life Obliteration!  :Small Big Grin: 

Leaving the debate about how big of a monster he is, then he certainly does have style.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Leaving the debate about how big of a monster he is, then he certainly does have style.


This doesn't count as 'test your might'.  It's more the between stage 'how fast can you mash the button?'

----------


## Shogo

That was amazing.

----------


## lord_khaine

> This doesn't count as 'test your might'. It's more the between stage 'how fast can you mash the button?'


If you carefully study the message you quoted then you might see it does not mention might at any place  :Small Tongue: 

It does mention style because he caught his bracelets again. And avoided getting blood on his own clothes.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

A nice demonstration of the most martial inclined Demiurge. *golf clap*

----------


## sihnfahl

> If you carefully study the message you quoted then you might see it does not mention might at any place


This hardly looks like a fight against a good opponent, and more 'mook stomping'.

----------


## Eldan

> I would call that less of a ring, and more Broken Rubble. 
> 
> Also, in a new comic.
> 
> Mega Kill!
> Super Kill!
> Hyper Kill!
> Monster Kill!
> Utra Mega Hyper Monster Kill!
> ...


It does look a bit like a cutscene with quick-time events. Swipe right to kick through 20 guys' torsoes.

----------


## -D-

> It does look a bit like a cutscene with quick-time events. Swipe right to kick through 20 guys' torsoes.


It's like Fruit Ninja, but for people.

----------


## lord_khaine

> This hardly looks like a fight against a good opponent, and more 'mook stomping'.


Arrg.. are you intentionally ignoring every 2nd word i write?!

Here i will quote myself again for clarity. And leave in the bit that you left out.




> If you carefully study the message you quoted then you might see it does *NOT* mention might at any place
> 
> It does mention style because he caught his bracelets again. And avoided getting blood on his own clothes.


The reason it does *NOT* mention Might. Is because my post does NOT have anything to do with might.
Or if the fight was or was not against a good opponent.

It purely center around SD's ability to put up a good show. 




> It does look a bit like a cutscene with quick-time events. Swipe right to kick through 20 guys' torsoes.


Whats important is that possibly noone else. Not even the two Angels. Get to see all of this. 
Certainly what the audience see, is Solomon David strikin a badass pose, that makes every person running towards him explode in gore. 
And depending on how its done, though raw speed or though freezing time, might make it so even White Chain just see that. Even if she might know -what- Solomon did on a technical level.

edit.
Removed -some- caps.

----------


## -D-

New Comic. 

Yeah, this is getting interrupted.

----------


## lord_khaine

That was a really good description of what Solomon stand for though. Brutal pragmatism. 

But as someone in the comments pointed out.
Notice just how litteral Solomon was about the "not be touched" comment.
He even avoided splattering blood on the people spared.

New comic.

Soo.. some extremely interesting development with Allison. 
This could very well be the key to defeating Solomon David.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

Update

Incubus ****s his pants at the sight of Zoss. The clear difference between the Conquering King and a Demiurge.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## BRC

So, apparently Zoss showing up isn't just some sort of Zoss-vision Allison is having?

Also, the alt-text...has every book's name-drop come from Zoss?

----------


## lord_khaine

So.. likely the key word there was You. 
Meaning that White Chain need to save herself.

----------


## Nettlekid

> Update
> 
> Incubus ****s his pants at the sight of Zoss. The clear difference between the Conquering King and a Demiurge.





> So, apparently Zoss showing up isn't just some sort of Zoss-vision Allison is having?
> 
> Also, the alt-text...has every book's name-drop come from Zoss?


Is this the first time anyone has interacted with Zoss in this way, when he comes to visit Allison? 

Also I wonder if there's something about Incubus also being a mental projection of Allison's (I think, right? Because his real body is all scarred?) that enables him to see and interact with this version of Zoss.

----------


## Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins

> Is this the first time anyone has interacted with Zoss in this way, when he comes to visit Allison? 
> 
> Also I wonder if there's something about Incubus also being a mental projection of Allison's (I think, right? Because his real body is all scarred?) that enables him to see and interact with this version of Zoss.


I'm pretty sure this is the first time anyone has been around when Zoss has appeared. But, as you have mentioned, Incubus himself is not actually around. It's also worth mentioning that Cio disappeared when Incubus showed up, so both parts of this visitation are probably in Alison's dreams.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I'm pretty sure this is the first time anyone has been around when Zoss has appeared. But, as you have mentioned, Incubus himself is not actually around. It's also worth mentioning that Cio disappeared when Incubus showed up, so both parts of this visitation are probably in Alison's dreams.


I think both Zoss and Incubus would be the first ones to explain that they are in fact very much around  :Small Tongue: 

But yes, we do also know from the absence of scars that this is Incubus's mental/dream/astral projection. 
Though good job noticing the absence of Cio.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

Update

Wherein Zoss once again drops the title.  :Small Big Grin:  And has a good "You should not go alone" speech.

----------


## lord_khaine

Arrgg.. ffs Abbadon you (censored), cant leave it on such a cliffhanger  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## PraetorDragoon

> Arrgg.. ffs Abbadon you (censored), cant leave it on such a cliffhanger


It has been repeatedly proven that he can.  :Small Big Grin: 

This will be an intersting fight to see. I have little doubt Solomon will win, but there are still victories to claim.

----------


## lord_khaine

> This will be an intersting fight to see. I have little doubt Solomon will win, but there are still victories to claim.


I actually think something absurdly unexpected will happen that prevents White Chain from losing.
Or turns a defeat into a victory.

----------


## Thales

From what I understand, this is the penultimate book. I think narratively something will happen to restart the Universal War, and the most straightforward way to do that would be to remove one of the demiurges. I don't know what will happen, but I've been pretty sure since the start of this arc that he's going to shed rather more than a drop of blood in the arena. He's the most prideful, he cultivates an air of invulnerability, and he's also pretty much the self-appointed organizer of the non-Jagganoth demiurges. His death would be the perfect way to kick off a situation our protagonists must respond to.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> It has been repeatedly proven that he can. 
> 
> This will be an intersting fight to see. I have little doubt Solomon will win, but there are still victories to claim.


Solomon is _not_ there to be an invincible force. He exists for story reasons - whatever they are - and as such, there's basically no possible way he wins. It may not be this fight, sure, but he's there to eventually fall. If I had to guess, there will be a coup d'grace moment, and Alison will intervene and save her friend. 

Then she'll give the key to her boyfriend, who's an even bigger douchebag than Solomon, and Alison will have to prove that power doesn't really come from the key, it comes from within. Or some such.

None of this is likely to happen as described - guessing a plot is nigh-impossible. But Solomon being there to win is pretty much certain to not be how it goes.

----------


## Eldan

Surely this can't be the penultimate book. There's so much story left. We still have no real idea what Jagganoth's deal is. Or Jadis. We have arguably had arcs focused on three of the seven demiurges (with some focus on Gog and Inky). Surely there has to be one book for each. And something with Michael.

Also, Solomon seems to go not just for victory, but for show-off victory. Notice how his stance and movements in the last panel exactly mirror what White Chain does in the first. He's copying her moves.

----------


## Nettlekid

The author pointed out that Zoss has namedropped each book's title, and the mouseover text on the most recent drop says "Only one more title drop to go in the whole series!" So that means one more book. Since this book seems to be covering both Solomon and Gog-Agog I could see the last one focusing on Jagganoth with a background focus on Jadis, and Incubus has been present through a few books so he doesn't need a whole one to himself.

The way I see the plot developing here is that Solomon David loses somehow, probably through Allison nonsense powers, and is crippled in a such a way that he cannot maintain his empire. This book had the Demiurges discussing how it's all of them versus Jagganoth and that it's only because of their combined power that Jagganoth doesn't destroy the world, and Solomon is haughty enough to think that his word is enough to keep the peace. The pact of the seven-part world, etc. So if Solomon falls here then Jagganoth is free to act, since the combined might of the other Demiurges can't stop him.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Also, Solomon seems to go not just for victory, but for show-off victory. Notice how his stance and movements in the last panel exactly mirror what White Chain does in the first. He's copying her moves.


Oh good observation. I missed that was what Solomon did. 
And well yeah, this is likely the most excitement is going to get this decade. I dont begrudge him playing around a bit.
Instead of going for a Ki-Rata finisher.

----------


## Spacewolf

He's not copying exactly his hands and feet are in slightly different positions. Which kind of makes me think he's doing the textbook responses to chains moves.

----------


## Dragonus45

Im thinking that through some miracle Solomon sheds that drop of blood, and everything collapses when he flounces off to go do whatever having declared it all not his problem any more. But more likely I think Gog is gonna interfere as its petty nature means it is willing to attack Solomon even though it means an angry OP demiurge gets to star breaking creation in half.

----------


## Thales

As with our host's comic, I suspect the final book may be longest and the one that gets furthest into what exactly the nature of the world is.

I wouldn't be surprised if Allison gives her key to Zaid at some point. We know there's some time loop thing going on, and I kind of expect Zaid to grow up to be Zoss. K6BD's creator said some stuff along the lines of Zaid's name not being a coincidence, they don't look radically different (modulo thousands of years of hard living and fighting), and there has to be some reason why Zoss turned up there of all places. To be more specific, I think it's possible that the Conquering King and the Ruling King are actually different people who got conflated through the mists of history. Allison's destiny is as the Conquering King, then she hands off the key to Zaid, who rules as Zoss, who hands it back to young Allison, repeat ad infinitum unless one of the two similarly-named-and-motivated Juggernaut characters can break the wheel. Or, more narratively likely, this Allison does with the help of her friends.

----------


## BRC

> As with our host's comic, I suspect the final book may be longest and the one that gets furthest into what exactly the nature of the world is.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if Allison gives her key to Zaid at some point. We know there's some time loop thing going on, and I kind of expect Zaid to grow up to be Zoss. K6BD's creator said some stuff along the lines of Zaid's name not being a coincidence, they don't look radically different (modulo thousands of years of hard living and fighting), and there has to be some reason why Zoss turned up there of all places. To be more specific, I think it's possible that the Conquering King and the Ruling King are actually different people who got conflated through the mists of history. Allison's destiny is as the Conquering King, then she hands off the key to Zaid, who rules as Zoss, who hands it back to young Allison, repeat ad infinitum unless one of the two similarly-named-and-motivated Juggernaut characters can break the wheel. Or, more narratively likely, this Allison does with the help of her friends.


That doesn't work, Zoss has spent too much time talking about his own mistakes for him to not be the Conquering King. 
Also, Allison's whole character arc in this book doesn't work well if the conclusion is that Allison becomes the Conquering King. 

What seems more likely is that, if Zaid is Zoss, and there is a time-loop going on, Allison receiving the key represents Breaking the loop.

Zoss conquers the universe, tries to fix it, fails, gives the key to his younger self, and the whole cycle begins again. This repeats ad-nauseum until one particular loop, Zoss instead gives the key to Allison instead. 
Which sets up that Allison's job is to succeed where Zoss failed?

But, 1) Zoss told Allison to give up the power to another, and 2) The Demiurges still need to be dealt with.

So maybe the idea is that Allison is supposed to be Conquering King 2.0, beating up the Demiurges, who then sets about giving up her power to somebody else. Maybe the idea is that Zaid/Zoss COULD break the wheel, but the skills he needed to learn to become the Conquering King changed him into somebody who COULDN'T. Violence begets violence, so the master of violence (The Conquering King) is incapable of bringing about peace. 

So maybe it goes Zoss (Conquering King) > Allison (Conquering King 2.0, Kill Six Billion Demons) > Zaid (Ruling King)

----------


## Dragonus45

So Im extrapolating a bit from some stuff in the  lancer rpg, specifically the bit about how time dilation as a plot point can be used to endorce the need for large scale system as a narrative opposed to single people or elite groups enforcing change, but I think the idea of Alison giving up her Key is going to involve her sharing power with multiple people not just Zaid. Im thinking she may even wind up giving a bunch of power to White Chain during the fight.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> The author pointed out that Zoss has namedropped each book's title, and the mouseover text on the most recent drop says "Only one more title drop to go in the whole series!" So that means one more book.


It could equally mean the end of Zoss.

----------


## Eldan

In which Solomon is supremely smug, to no one's surprise.

----------


## lord_khaine

I dont think you can call it smug when he seemingly has mastered every martial art style in the universe. 
And for the moment, it seems like he is content to just mirror White Chains choice of style.

----------


## Shogo

Honestly, one of the best things about K6BD right now is the way that people twist themselves into knots trying to interpret every single little thing Solomon says or does in the worst possible light.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Honestly, one of the best things about K6BD right now is the way that people twist themselves into knots trying to interpret every single little thing Solomon says or does in the worst possible light.


It is at time staggering how far people are ready to go in the comment thread.
Like second degree speculation, or worse. 

I guess his magnificent beard or oiled biceps just trigger something in people.

----------


## Dragonus45

I mean, the guy clearly is a massive *******. He clearly is one of the most smug beings in all of creation. But its also fair to say that he is the least evil of the various demiurges and seems to when a sense of honor and decencys. People just focus on the first hits and pretend the rest is irrelevant.

----------


## lord_khaine

I honestly think even the *banana* bit is fairly minor. I mean, whats the most *banana*-ish move we have seen him make?
Kill a handful of people in a blood tournament? (alright, a *large* handful)

I also think called him smug is perhaps incorret. As far as i can see, smug is the word you use when someone you dislike are being proud. 
And the dictionary define it as"having or showing an excessive pride in oneself or one's achievements."

Except, Solomons achivements litterally break any sort of measuring system we can apply to it from our world. 
So he is as such entitled to be proud of them. 

Something that also leads me to what i think is the reason for why Solomon wont use Ki Rata in this fight.
He might litterally be the most skilled martial artist in all of creation? (if some of Zoss's power came from being closer to true royalty).
But what he wants is respect from his peers. Since normal people cant really tell the difference between the top contestants.
So on this the only people whose oppinion matters are likely the 2 angels.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

The only thing that Solomon wants as far as I can tell is to remake his homeworld and make it an eternal empire. (https://killsixbilliondemons.com/com...f-swords-4-45/) I am not sure if he wants any respect of his peers beyond being acknowledged the best. (His acting during the concordance of the demiurges makes him look like he thinks he stands above them. )

----------


## lord_khaine

> The only thing that Solomon wants as far as I can tell is to remake his homeworld and make it an eternal empire. (https://killsixbilliondemons.com/com...f-swords-4-45/) I am not sure if he wants any respect of his peers beyond being acknowledged the best. (His acting during the concordance of the demiurges makes him look like he thinks he stands above them. )


Your taking Incubus's word for cannon? Incubus whom we have already seen be told he knew nothing by Zoss?  :Small Confused: 
Incubus who are telling Allison a story there meant to manipulate her?

Solomon David already has restored his homeworld. That objective is complete. 

And right now he is treating the surviving top contestants like honored guests. 
As well as giving White Chain what can only be called a fair fight.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

> Your taking Incubus's word for cannon? Incubus whom we have already seen be told he knew nothing by Zoss? 
> Incubus who are telling Allison a story there meant to manipulate her?
> 
> Solomon David already has restored his homeworld. That objective is complete. 
> 
> And right now he is treating the surviving top contestants like honored guests. 
> As well as giving White Chain what can only be called a fair fight.


It is one of the concrete goals of Solomon that i could find. The other is that he wants to continue his journey to True Royalty, and to do so he needs to find somebody worthy to pass things over. The latter is a bit similiar to his desire to make his homeworld-empire immortal. 

Not sure if I would call "being thrown in jail and kept under guard watch" honored guests, but who knows. I don't know the housing conditions of Solomon's worlds. 

And I agree on the fair fight. I did not expect him to utilize the same martial arts.

----------


## lord_khaine

> It is one of the concrete goals of Solomon that i could find. The other is that he wants to continue his journey to True Royalty, and to do so he needs to find somebody worthy to pass things over. The latter is a bit similiar to his desire to make his homeworld-empire immortal.


Its Incubuses idea of what Solomons goals are. 
And none of those explain why he is mirroring White Chains choice of style. 
Hence, he has other goals and desires besides those 2. 

The respect and admiration of your peers are a very human one. That does explain why he might be doing this.




> Not sure if I would call "being thrown in jail and kept under guard watch" honored guests, but who knows. I don't know the housing conditions of Solomon's worlds.


Its honored guests who are also troublemakers.

----------


## Thales

Count me in the "Solomon David is a bad guy" camp. Relevantly, I think Abbadon is also in that camp. Look at page 10-145. The comic's description says



> Chief among the concerns of any code of punishment is that it is important for the executed to have dignity. A mans death must be treated with reverence and not treated at some soiled thing. It therefore transforms from a wrongdoing into a spectacle.


which seems to be implying that (this) execution is a wrongdoing. The rollover text calls out Solomon for being "suspiciously slightly better dressed" in this sort of fight.

On page 10-144, the comic's text is more explicit:



> Enyis reached the city of Golden Flowing Water, which was at the time the most brutal domain in the world. For spitting in public there, one could lose a finger. It was a thirsty, conquering city that took many slaves, enjoyed the whip, and worshiped the sword.
> Enyis was surprised to find the streets sparkling clean and orderly. The buildings were well constructed, airy, and it was scattered with well tended gardens redolent with many colorful flowers.
> They must enrapture you with splendor, said the Boar King, who had noticed Enyis confusion. Otherwise, you might look down and notice the blood-matted beast who shoulders this city, and your mind will fill with unpleasant truths.'
>  Enyis and the Fivefold Sword


While this is referring to something other than Solomon David's domain, it's clearly trying to draw a parallel. Rayuba is beautiful, but it's built on a cruel order.

Page 10-142's text criticizes Solomon's tendency to essentially play with his foes while dressing it up as honor:



> Instead, you must nurse your foe back to health, dress, and feed him, but not so much that he regains his strength. You must take away every aspect of him which originally seemed fierce and indestructible. In every aspect you must diminish and crush his spirit with affection, all the while maintaining your grip on his sword arm. In this way, kindness is the greatest cruelty.


Finally, White Chain's motivation for challenging Solomon David make explicit what I suspect is also Abbadon's beef with his system:



> "The system that does everything in its power to crush those who stand out, and reward those who do things the 'right way'. The system that destroys the young and foolish, the hopeful and aspirational... It sacrifices those that dream of a different world for the sake of brutal pragmatism. To grind down history into a stagnant nothingness. That system is built on fear, Allison. All for fear of failure. For fear of losing control. [...] I defended it every second of my life, even as I railed against its cruelty, even as I myself suffered for it."


Obviously, characters say things that are wrong, and in this comic in particular, our protagonists take on some ill-thought-out positions. But part of the reason for that is one of the messages of the comic is in favor of the "young and foolish, the hopeful and aspirational". Those people won't always make great decisions (e.g. inviting Incubus in), but the message is that the devil you know really isn't necessarily better than the one you don't. I'm pretty sure White Chain is speaking for Abbadon here, and I think most of us who think Solomon David is a bad guy endorse this reasoning or something like that.

Sorry I don't have links; my account is too new to be allowed to post those.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Count me in the "Solomon David is a bad guy" camp. Relevantly, I think Abbadon is also in that camp. Look at page 10-145. The comic's description says


Abbadon is just 1 guy. Good/Bad is a extremely subjective matter. That he thinks it isnt more important than that you think so.




> which seems to be implying that (this) execution is a wrongdoing. The rollover text calls out Solomon for being "suspiciously slightly better dressed" in this sort of fight.


What execution? We have not yet seen one of those in the celestrial empire.
As for Solomon being slightly better dressed? Well if someone wants to out-dress Solomon they should bring their own robes.




> While this is referring to something other than Solomon David's domain, it's clearly trying to draw a parallel. Rayuba is beautiful, but it's built on a cruel order.


Except the description we have had of Rayban does not involve cruel. Harsh and unyelding yes. Cruel no. 




> Page 10-142's text criticizes Solomon's tendency to essentially play with his foes while dressing it up as honor:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Instead, you must nurse your foe back to health, dress, and feed him, but not so much that he regains his strength. You must take away every aspect of him which originally seemed fierce and indestructible. In every aspect you must diminish and crush his spirit with affection, all the while maintaining your grip on his sword arm. In this way, kindness is the greatest cruelty.


Hmm.. no that does not criticize it. It just explains what Solomon does to achive a complete victory. 
But as such it does not have any relevance to the fight between Solomon and White Chain.




> Finally, White Chain's motivation for challenging Solomon David make explicit what I suspect is also Abbadon's beef with his system:


Not going to touch this. Since you -really- dont know what Abbadon thinks. And so really should not try and put words in the mouth of the author.




> Obviously, characters say things that are wrong, and in this comic in particular, our protagonists take on some ill-thought-out positions. But part of the reason for that is one of the messages of the comic is in favor of the "young and foolish, the hopeful and aspirational". Those people won't always make great decisions (e.g. inviting Incubus in), but the message is that the devil you know really isn't necessarily better than the one you don't. I'm pretty sure White Chain is speaking for Abbadon here, and I think most of us who think Solomon David is a bad guy endorse this reasoning or something like that.
> 
> Sorry I don't have links; my account is too new to be allowed to post those.


Its again very easy to go for the higher moral ground, or the long shots, when you got protagonist grade plot armor.
But whats important to remember here, is whats some of the alternatives are. We got worlds devoured to the ground. We got worlds reduced to a muddy slum. 
And we got a crusade to reduce everything to ash.

----------


## PraetorDragoon

> Its Incubuses idea of what Solomons goals are. 
> And none of those explain why he is mirroring White Chains choice of style. 
> Hence, he has other goals and desires besides those 2. 
> 
> The respect and admiration of your peers are a very human one. That does explain why he might be doing this.
> 
> 
> 
> Its honored guests who are also troublemakers.


I will accept the troublemakers reason.  :Small Wink: 

Respect and admiration of his peers is a valid reason. Thing is that I haven't seen anything in the comic regarding Solomon that indicates that. So far most of his interactions with others have been asserting his superiority. In many cases valid superiority, indeed. But respect and admiration of his peers.... Not seen that so far.  :Small Frown:

----------


## Dragonus45

I agree that Abaddon clearly intends for SD to be seen as a villain, and I don't even entirely disagree with the notion. But in general I tend to be surprised by people treating him like he is the _most_ evil of the 7. It's very clear his actions in creating an empire as Lawful and impartial as possible and his constant worry about what happens to it if he stops looking comes from the  total anarchy and destruction that left his world a lifeless ball of rock. So he responds be going hard the other way, a world where you may lack dignity on a personal level but at least you have some rules to follow and survive the nonsensical brutality that is creation. See also, his refusal to have more daughters after the death of his original family. Clearly the guy is still nursing some scars over the subject deep dpown. This is why White Chain is such a good foil. She has lived an eternity under the thumb of the angels and their lawful stagnant culture, and she sees fighting SD as her way to break free of that. I'm not exactly convinced she needs "atonement" for anything in particular but she does so that's whatever. The main idea here though is that he seems like the most reasonable and least awful of a group of people who are setting a really low bar on that front, but people.

----------


## Rydiro

I think Solomon is an utterly failed metaphor. Its pretty clear that he is at least a decent ruler concerned with the wellbeing of his people AND that he holds up the rule of law. Thats like better than 50% of real world states, where corrupt governments rule.
There is not a single thing in the text that makes him evil, he is actively trying to make the world a better place. (Maybe he is not 100% efficient in that, considering the lack of pioneers/engineers in his legions) White chain is being antagonistic for some made-up reason. I think thats poor writing. It makes the Protagonists look really stupid.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Respect and admiration of his peers is a valid reason. Thing is that I haven't seen anything in the comic regarding Solomon that indicates that. So far most of his interactions with others have been asserting his superiority. In many cases valid superiority, indeed. But respect and admiration of his peers.... Not seen that so far.


Well im not saying the clues are not subtle and open for interpretation. 
But i do think he displayed respect towards the top contestants of his tournament? At least the non-troublemaker ones. 
Who were stored in a cell before given a prime seat at the fight. 

Vigilant Gaze meanwhile has seemingly not been under guard. 

And he is going out of his way to make the fight with White Chain fair. Getting her fixed as well as possible. 
Limiting himself to the style she is using (or that might also be showing off for her). Not using magic nor Ki Rata.

None of this is stuff he has do to. Certainly, SD could always have flicked her out of the Arena with Ki Rata or telekinesis had he wanted to.
So main reason not to do that, seems either to enjoy the chance of a good clean fight. Or wanting the respect of your opponent.
Likely its both.

Else, regarding the points made by *Dragonus* and *Rydio*. 
It at least seems clear that Solomon David is an opponent. Someone whose goals of stability has in part become stagnation, because the alternative brought risk of utter destruction. 
So there are already there reason for conflict between him and those wanting changes.

And yeah. White Chain is perhaps blowing the issue a little bit out of proportion. 
I mean we saw just what utterly horrible situation it seemed like Throne were in? 
That place certainly seemed a lot less safe.

----------


## Rydiro

> And yeah. White Chain is perhaps blowing the issue a little bit out of proportion. 
> I mean we saw just what utterly horrible situation it seemed like Throne were in? 
> That place certainly seemed a lot less safe.


Thats kind of the point, why of all the things going poorly, is WC picking a fight with Solomon? Why doesn't she say oppose the thorn angels who wronged and forced WC to be their thug? Thats the real issue she has and she takes it out on Solomon. Thats self-centered and not at all heroic.

----------


## Bobb

I also got some whiplash from WC's pre-duel speech.


I saw most of the entrants as little incubuses. Power hungry wannabes who only understand violence. After all, they're killing each other for a shot at the throne and don't seem to realize how woefully outmatched they are.

Frankly, I saw the whole tourney scene as a safety release valve for dangerous, psychotic would be tyrants and gave Solomon props for saving on secret police budget.



Hearing white chain, of all people, going on about how Solomon was stepping on the face of the future and solutions because he was brutally murdering brutal murderers....

it didn't hit the mark for me.

----------


## mystic1110

The problem with Solomon is it doesn't truly matter that he is autocratic or despotic or egotistical or patriarchal or smug as hell. None of it matters when you compare living under his rule compared to living under any of the other demiurges. Moreover, it doesn't matter because there is no other system to replace him with. This isn't a situation in the real world where you can argue for democracy over tyranny or freedom over fascism - without Solomon the entire kingdom gets wiped out by another of the seven or it falls to infighting. People in this world have the power and powers that people in real life don't have. Without Solomon the kingdom will tear itself apart or be eaten whole. So it doesn't really matter what label you give him, and you can find enough reasons to put any label on him, he has Vetinari Job Security. In short he is necessary. 

In effect think of the Cold War but the President of the U.S. and the Secretary of the Communist party in the Soviet Union were the Nuclear Weapons. Like neither the Soviets or the U.S. had any Nuclear weapons at all but their leaders were the physical embodiment of a thousand nuclear bombs. You can't tell the leader to pack it up because otherwise you would have no mutually assured destruction. You could not have told Truman to leave office since you didn't like his social policies if Truman was ALL THE BOMBS. The only solutions are to (1) have the leaders pull a Cincinnatus and retire, but they would all have to do it, or (2) depower all the leaders similar to nuclear disarmament.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Else, regarding the points made by *Dragonus* and *Rydio*. 
> It at least seems clear that Solomon David is an opponent. Someone whose goals of stability has in part become stagnation, because the alternative brought risk of utter destruction. 
> So there are already there reason for conflict between him and those wanting changes.


I'll just say that regarding what we know from say Lancer, or the hilarious alt text of the page White Chain makes her speech on its clear SD is meant to be seen as a much greater evil then context warrants. 




> I think Solomon is an utterly failed metaphor. Its pretty clear that he is at least a decent ruler concerned with the wellbeing of his people AND that he holds up the rule of law. Thats like better than 50% of real world states, where corrupt governments rule.
> There is not a single thing in the text that makes him evil, he is actively trying to make the world a better place. (Maybe he is not 100% efficient in that, considering the lack of pioneers/engineers in his legions) White chain is being antagonistic for some made-up reason. I think thats poor writing. It makes the Protagonists look really stupid.





> The problem with Solomon is it doesn't truly matter that he is autocratic or despotic or egotistical or patriarchal or smug as hell. None of it matters when you compare living under his rule compared to living under any of the other demiurges. Moreover, it doesn't matter because there is no other system to replace him with. This isn't a situation in the real world where you can argue for democracy over tyranny or freedom over fascism - without Solomon the entire kingdom gets wiped out by another of the seven or it falls to infighting. People in this world have the power and powers that people in real life don't have. Without Solomon the kingdom will tear itself apart or be eaten whole. So it doesn't really matter what label you give him, and you can find enough reasons to put any label on him, he has Vetinari Job Security. In short he is necessary.


Sure, there isn't a system to replace him, but he could be better, and I think that is a real concrete complaint. He had the power to move a sun around willy nilly and apparently reach enlightenment through martial arts breatihng bull**** but can't manage a system even marginally more flexible and less brittle then his current one? The "brutal pragmatism" of his variety of authoritarianism is absolutely worth throwing some rage against. He absolutely did fail his people on a lot of ways. He just really failed them least of all the other insane creatures currently running creation.

----------


## mystic1110

> Sure, there isn't a system to replace him, but he could be better, and I think that is a real concrete complaint. He had the power to move a sun around willy nilly and apparently reach enlightenment through martial arts breatihng bull**** but can't manage a system even marginally more flexible and less brittle then his current one? The "brutal pragmatism" of his variety of authoritarianism is absolutely worth throwing some rage against. He absolutely did fail his people on a lot of ways. He just really failed them least of all the other insane creatures currently running creation.


He can definitely be better - and I expect that if WC gets drop of blood off him it wouldn't be a wish of "step down" or "give up your power" but instead something to the effect of "be better".

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## Ibrinar

> I also got some whiplash from WC's pre-duel speech.
> 
> 
> I saw most of the entrants as little incubuses. Power hungry wannabes who only understand violence. After all, they're killing each other for a shot at the throne and don't seem to realize how woefully outmatched they are.
> 
> Frankly, I saw the whole tourney scene as a safety release valve for dangerous, psychotic would be tyrants and gave Solomon props for saving on secret police budget.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


People complain about negative views of solomon not having enough back up in their opinion. Bobb: "everyone taking part in a fighting tournament that rewards rulership is a psychotic would be tyrant and cutting them down is for the best". Lol. No offense I just found judging all the participants that strongly purely because they are participants a bit silly in that context (well in general too.)

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## lord_khaine

> People complain about negative views of solomon not having enough back up in their opinion. Bobb: "everyone taking part in a fighting tournament that rewards rulership is a psychotic would be tyrant and cutting them down is for the best". Lol. No offense I just found judging all the participants that strongly purely because they are participants a bit silly in that context (well in general too.)


Well your missing out key bits. Its not the ones participating.
Its the ones that..
a) get kicked out of the arena by a crazy blue devil girl.
b) watches her in turn get her ass kicked in the angel showdown. 
c) see Juggernaut and Gazes wreck the arena even further.
d) observes that Solomon is still protecting them and the audience from getting smoked.
e) Is told "you win second prize! wealth! fame! prestige!"
f) Goes "nope.. i can take that guy!"

That takes a rather serious disconnect from reality. 
I think its at least partially fair to assume the wast majority of them are baby-incubuses in the making. 
Except of course that Incubus is a genius (and a psycopath).

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## BRC

Am I the only one seeing a repeated theme of Kings being Prisoners.

Like, we have the King of the Devils as a most literal example. 
One of the Demiurges, I forget what their name is, the one stuck in the crystal, this one https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/ksbd-4-77/ is also pretty literally a prisoner.

Mottom described herself as trapped by her court, Mammon is basically a prisoner of the Count and his own senility, and now we have White Chain describing Solomon as a prisoner.

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## tyckspoon

> Am I the only one seeing a repeated theme of Kings being Prisoners.


No, it's absolutely one of the major motifs - all of these beings that sought power because they thought it would free them from their limitations, ending up trapped by their own choices, from Zoss to the demiurges to the Followers chasing Alison around to the Thorn Knights. Contrast to the main trio - a nobody barista who was given unlimited power, then subjected to a series of trials that are mostly teaching her that power doesn't solve problems. A devil that was at the height of strength for her kind, then gave it all up because she found it didn't make her happy. An angel, a being literally crafted to be the gods' own lawbeings, that is choosing self-determination - not following the dictates of the Old Law, or the orders of a superior angel. All learning to choose differently, to choose what makes them fulfilled over what allows them to punch somebody even harder. This is what Zoss is banking on, I believe, hoping (or knowing, depending on how his whole detached-from-time cycle thing works) that they will get into a position where their lessons and changes can break the domination of violence.

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## lord_khaine

It will certainly make an interesting case, if White Chain can defeat Solomon with words, where gods know how many has failed with violence.

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## Eldan

Personally, I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop on Solomon and it just never seems to. 
It is clear that he is intended as an antagonist, and yet, his world seems safe, stable and prosperous. We are told the laws are harsh, but we dont' see it. So I agree that we are getting mixed signals here. I find Solomon unpleasant as a person, but he is apparently competent and at least not malevolent. 
So, for the time being, yeah, I think he's the man for the job as far as running the multiverse. Unless we cut to the gigantic pit of dismembered people he eats alive to feed his power or something along those lines in the next few pages.

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## Rydiro

> Personally, I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop on Solomon and it just never seems to. 
> It is clear that he is intended as an antagonist, and yet, his world seems safe, stable and prosperous. We are told the laws are harsh, but we dont' see it. So I agree that we are getting mixed signals here. I find Solomon unpleasant as a person, but he is apparently competent and at least not malevolent. 
> So, for the time being, yeah, I think he's the man for the job as far as running the multiverse. Unless we cut to the gigantic pit of dismembered people he eats alive to feed his power or something along those lines in the next few pages.


Yeah, he is a failed metaphor for the oppressiveness of states. Or rather a good metaphor, because the critique that all states are oppressive is short-sighted at best.

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## Eldan

I mean, at least if the law is said to be oppressive, show them hanging a few thieves or something.

Though, I guess, technically we could say all inhabitants of Gog Agog's world are happy too.

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## sihnfahl

> It is clear that he is intended as an antagonist, and yet, his world seems safe, stable and prosperous. We are told the laws are harsh, but we dont' see it. So I agree that we are getting mixed signals here. I find Solomon unpleasant as a person, but he is apparently competent and at least not malevolent. 
> So, for the time being, yeah, I think he's the man for the job as far as running the multiverse. Unless we cut to the gigantic pit of dismembered people he eats alive to feed his power or something along those lines in the next few pages.


That main world.  Where he concentrates his power.

Per Abaddon ... 
"Solomon David is regarded as just, even-handed, and incredibly brutal by most of his subjects. As god-emperor of the powerful Celestial Empire, his dictatorship has uplifted countless societies and crushed countless more into dust. Most people live their daily lives with a high degree of safety, industry, and prosperity under his rule, if not freedom."

So you won't see it (much) on that world... because that's the longest that's been under his direct control and millennia of management to smooth out society through force or law ... or arms, as needs be.

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## BRC

Solomon isn't an Antagonist in the sense that he's an evil tyrant whose people suffer under his rule.

Like, he is one, but as far as places to live, his chunk of the Multiverse is probably the best. Everybody seems to either live in  prosperity, or was already ruthlessly destroyed. But, just as Mammon was not as simple as "Slay the Dragon", I don't think Solomon is supposed to be as simple as "Overthrow the evil empire".


Solomon David is an Antagonist, all the Demiurges are, but this whole arc is about a philosophical conflict. 

Solomon David's premise, as outlined here, is that he is the King because he is the strongest. Violence in this setting has two meanings, the act of inflicting harm on others, and the act of inflicting your will on the world. Solomon David, perhaps more than any other character (Except, perhaps, Jagganoth), excels at these two arts.

He sees this truth: That the strongest shall reign, as not only inevitable, but CORRECT. It is his duty to test for somebody stronger than himself, because if he is second-best, then it is his duty to abdicate. 
"So Say I. This is the Law of Kings. Either make it your own or know your place". 

This Arc we see Allison, enamored with her own strength and skill at violence, basically take Solomon's Route, attempting to assert her will through raw violence, and it doesn't work for her, and in fact, WOULD NEVER have worked for her. Allison never stood the merest scrap of a chance. 
Zoss shows up for the title drop, "The King of Swords must lay down his burden". The one who conquers CANNOT be the one to rule. 

The idea isn't that SD is a bad ruler, he seems to rule well more for the sake of his own ego than out of genuine compassion, but he DOES lead a prosperous, safe, happy nation, and that can't be discounted. He's there as a counterpoint to the idea that this story is about A Good Hero Who Beats Up The Bad Guys. That Allison (our hero) just needs to be strong enough to win a fight, and then everything will be good.

Because, like, we already HAVE a Good Hero Who Is Really Good At Fights. Sure, he's a smug douche, but that doesn't necessarily make him Evil, and far from solving the problem, he's part of it. 

Solomon David, by his own philosophy, CANNOT condemn the crimes of the other Demiurges, since he can't beat them (If he could have, he would have), they have just as much right to their realms as he does to his. His subjects are lucky that they got the "Good" Demiurge, but the fact is the current system is built on "Who was left standing after everybody else fell down", and six out of seven times, it resulted in a cruel tyrant.

The last time it ALSO resulted in a tyrant, just one who considers the wellbeing of his people a priority, even if it's just to feed his own ego. 

Violence is a cycle, it is self-fulfilling. Solomon David thinks he can beat it by mastering it, but that's not going to work. Jagganoth is coming, violence unrestrained by SD's sense of of honor and duty. If our hero (Allison) is to break the wheel and succeed where Zoss failed, she needs to look past the idea of violence as the answer. 

My theory, Jagganoth is going to invade, he's going get that drop of blood, and the celestial empire will be destroyed, it's god-emperor a prisoner of his own rules and dedication to the art of Violence.

TLDR: SD isn't an antagonist because he's bad at running his empire, he's an antagonist because his philosophy is one that inevitably leads to greater violence, no matter how well-executed his reign is.

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## lord_khaine

> So you won't see it (much) on that world... because that's the longest that's been under his direct control and millennia of management to smooth out society through force or law ... or arms, as needs be.


I doubt you will see much more on anything but a recently conquered world. I suspect in most cases a generation of the trains running to time and not going hungry will smooth over unrest.




> Very long post by *BRC*


Well. A rather thoughful analysis. Though i still disagree with some parts of it.
Most of all the unfounded bit about it being pride that runs Solomon. We dont have any evidence whatsoever towards this.
Its just something that has been repeated so many times it got stuck. But thats more because, that for unfathomable reasons 
Solomon has been extremely unpopular with a vocal part of the fanbase. And so whenever he failed to eat a baby he was accused of just doing it because he was proud.

It seems a lot more likely he runs on a mix of honor, duty, obligation, sentimentality and love. 
He has not had any daughters since he lost his family in the multiverse war. And when he had avenged his world, he goes though the massive task of getting it rebuild.
Instead of just taking a new throne world. That does point towards a mix of sentimentality and love for his world.

Solomon does also seem very much about tradition and obligation. I certainly dont think its a stretch to assume he genuinly believe in a rulers obligation towards his people.
That obligation then becomes the prison White Chain taunts him with. Because he would be failing in the obligation towards his people,
if he handed them over to someone ufit to rule.

Where it should be pointed out. All someone has to do is to draw a drop of his blood to prove themselves worthy. 
They dont need to show they are stronger than Solomon. Just that they are strong enough to protect the Celestrial Empire. 




> Because, like, we already HAVE a Good Hero Who Is Really Good At Fights. Sure, he's a smug douche, but that doesn't necessarily make him Evil, and far from solving the problem, he's part of it.


Has commented on the smug part already (smug is just confidence in someone you dislike), but yes hilariously enough, his story reads like an old Kung-Fu movie.




> TLDR: SD isn't an antagonist because he's bad at running his empire, he's an antagonist because his philosophy is one that inevitably leads to greater violence, no matter how well-executed his reign is.


I see it more as SD is an antagonist, because while he works at preventing things from growing worse, then he is also in the way of things getting better.

And now i am really curious at how events will unfold. 
Honestly the situation reminds me a little of how things went in the partly obscure comic Superman Red Sun. 
*Spoiler*
Show


Alternative universe where Superman is raised by Lenin and goes about conquering the world to protect it. 
After proving largely undefeated Lex Luthor finally beats him with a sentence, that destroyes his conviction.

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## BRC

> Where it should be pointed out. All someone has to do is to draw a drop of his blood to prove themselves worthy. 
> They dont need to show they are stronger than Solomon. Just that they are strong enough to protect the Celestrial Empire.


Which doesn't mean they WILL protect the celestial empire. Heck, he's not even asking them to. He's putting the fate of his subjects in the hands of whomever can draw the drop of blood, either because 1) He trusts that whomever is strong enough to do so will also be a good person (Unlikely, I'd never accuse him of being an idiot), 2) he's convinced that it will never happen, or 3) as he outlines in this latest page, he views that he has a moral imperative to respect strength and skill at violence that he values higher than his moral imperative to be a good ruler. 
His criteria for "who should rule" is completely divorced from any semblence of who deserves to rule, it's just luck that the two happened to match up in him. 

This isn't the case of him selecting "Worthy Successors" he knows will rule with wisdom, and then testing them to see if they're strong enough to do the job if Mottom or whomever decides to throw down so he can retire in peace, confident that his empire is in good hands. He's literally opening the doors. It's like a modern president saying "Anybody who takes a point off me in ping-pong gets to nuke one city of their choice". Even if the president in question is an undefeated ping-pong champion, the fact that the offer is on the table shows that the leader in question values something, whether pride or strength, over the wellbeing of their people.

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## Dragonus45

> Yeah, he is a failed metaphor for the oppressiveness of states. Or rather a good metaphor, because the critique that all states are oppressive is short-sighted at best.


Hes a metaphor for other things as well, and I think that can fill in the gaps, but so much of him is wrapped in irl religious stuff that taking about him on here feels constantly frustrating and incomplete.

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## sihnfahl

> I doubt you will see much more on anything but a recently conquered world. I suspect in most cases a generation of the trains running to time and not going hungry will smooth over unrest.


Depending upon the level of pride, and the adherence of tradition, Solomon changing the status quo could take a while.  Or not long at all.

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## lord_khaine

> Which doesn't mean they WILL protect the celestial empire. Heck, he's not even asking them to. He's putting the fate of his subjects in the hands of whomever can draw the drop of blood, either because 1) He trusts that whomever is strong enough to do so will also be a good person (Unlikely, I'd never accuse him of being an idiot), 2) he's convinced that it will never happen, or 3) as he outlines in this latest page, he views that he has a moral imperative to respect strength and skill at violence that he values higher than his moral imperative to be a good ruler. 
> His criteria for "who should rule" is completely divorced from any semblence of who deserves to rule, it's just luck that the two happened to match up in him. 
> 
> This isn't the case of him selecting "Worthy Successors" he knows will rule with wisdom, and then testing them to see if they're strong enough to do the job if Mottom or whomever decides to throw down so he can retire in peace, confident that his empire is in good hands. He's literally opening the doors. It's like a modern president saying "Anybody who takes a point off me in ping-pong gets to nuke one city of their choice". Even if the president in question is an undefeated ping-pong champion, the fact that the offer is on the table shows that the leader in question values something, whether pride or strength, over the wellbeing of their people.


Well, an important clarrification. Its whoever manages to both draw a drop of blood from him, and asks to be made heir to his empire. 
Drawing blood just gets a request from Solomon. The person actually have to want to rule as well.

And the sad point remains, that for a ruler the most important criteria isnt wisdom. 
That would not get the respect of the demi-urges, or help when Jagganoth comes knocking.

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## Rydiro

> Hes a metaphor for other things as well, and I think that can fill in the gaps, but so much of him is wrapped in irl religious stuff that taking about him on here feels constantly frustrating and incomplete.


I don't really see the religious metaphor. Except for the occasional halo of pride.
The demiurges are worshipped in-universe as gods, but that has been cosistently proven untrue. Its clear they are very human, since mottom was shown as a scared old woman.

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## Dragonus45

> I don't really see the religious metaphor. Except for the occasional halo of pride.
> The demiurges are worshipped in-universe as gods, but that has been cosistently proven untrue. Its clear they are very human, since mottom was shown as a scared old woman.


Uhhh, its there. It plays a lot into white chains speech and a few other things but going into detail here would be crossing the line on forum rules. There are some good comments digging into it on the site itself Ive seen.

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## lord_khaine

> Uhhh, its there. It plays a lot into white chains speech and a few other things but going into detail here would be crossing the line on forum rules. There are some good comments digging into it on the site itself Ive seen.


At times like this those rules get really annoying. But all the same i must confess i cant see the connections either.

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## Eldan

I mean, they are called demiurges for a reason.

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## lord_khaine

> I mean, they are called demiurges for a reason.


Yeah. I dont see whats special with that word. I have seen it a few places. 
And honestly dont get why that should dig further into real world religion than stuff like god or angel. 

Else. New comic.
Something is up. And it look suspicious.

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## Narkis

> Yeah. I dont see whats special with that word. I have seen it a few places.


It means "Creator" in Greek, and it is used as an epithet for the Christian God.

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## sihnfahl

> Something is up. And it look suspicious.


The Keys respond to Will and Desire, do they not?

And if your will is shaken... well...

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## Eldan

> It means "Creator" in Greek, and it is used as an epithet for the Christian God.


Not the meaning or the religion I meant, but I'm not sure I can go into it. 

Ah, heck, I'll just link it and hope the mods won't nuke me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge#Gnosticism

See also later down the list: seven evil archons (rulers) of the multiverse and the name Yaldabaoth, which can't possibly be a coincidence. Also to note one Archon being called David.

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## Eldan

Someone in the comments pointed out something interesting: Ki Rata needs perfect control. It can be lethal if performed wrong. Maybe throwing Solomon off his game can actually work.

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## Thales

I feel like Solomon has to try a ten point strike, just for completion.

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## tyckspoon

> I feel like Solomon has to try a ten point strike, just for completion.


Why would he want to destroy Rayuba? That's where he keeps his favorite stuff.

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## Thales

> Why would he want to destroy Rayuba? That's where he keeps his favorite stuff.


Yeah, that's the main argument against it. Then again, the five point strike, while devastating, was also extremely precise. Perhaps the ten point one could be as well, just with even more destructive force?

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## lord_khaine

> Ah, heck, I'll just link it and hope the mods won't nuke me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge#Gnosticism
> 
> See also later down the list: seven evil archons (rulers) of the multiverse and the name Yaldabaoth, which can't possibly be a coincidence. Also to note one Archon being called David.


Oh i see. Cool. This does explain where that weird Lion-headed snake thing in Dominions 5 come from. 
And i can see there obviously is some inspiration here. Though clearly its for a large part names and so on.

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## Dragonus45

> Oh i see. Cool. This does explain where that weird Lion-headed snake thing in Dominions 5 come from. 
> And i can see there obviously is some inspiration here. Though clearly its for a large part names and so on.


Wayyyyyyy more then names.

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## lord_khaine

Well fair. More than just purely names.
It relates to that real religion, the same way Marvels Thor Ragnarog relates to a real religion?

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## Shogo

With all this build up and people excitedly cheering White Chain on, I'm actually kind of hoping she's going to fail miserably and get smacked down without even extracting the single drop of blood people think she's going to manage.

Just to further hammer in Zoss telling them off for trying to take the Demiurges head on.

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## Eldan

> Well fair. More than just purely names.
> It relates to that real religion, the same way Marvels Thor Ragnarog relates to a real religion?


Maybe a bit more, since at least Abaddon's writings if not the actual comic scripts are interested in philosophical writing, but yeah, basically.

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## lord_khaine

Well.. as such the Marvel movies -does- also seem to adhere to old viking philosophy?
Thor is awesome! Violence is great!  :Small Tongue:

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## Eldan

Point taken. They actually get the general theme of some Thor stories pretty right. I meant more the story outline of Ragnarök. Most of that is missing. We don't even have a Tyr or Balder, who are some of the most important gods in the story. And Odin dies before ever meeting Fenrir.

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## lord_khaine

Well yeah. I think Thor Ragnarok hits the tone of Thors wedding quite right  :Small Big Grin: 
Thats likely one of the most fameous stories.

Actual Ragnarok meanwhile is a bit more somber.

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## Sean Mirrsen

New page.

*Spoiler*
Show

The saddest thing is, that never once, in the history of anime and manga, has such an all-out attack by a hero, ever actually accomplished anything. It's the quintessential Worf Barrage.

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## Spacewolf

*Spoiler: latest*
Show

Yea Gaze needed to say Chain will only get one shot and it's a million to one. Then it might have worked. 

To be fair Chain taking over for Solomon would probably be enough to start the next big war so you never know.

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## Rydiro

If she wins(draws blood), doesnt she get a wish?
I have a feeling she wont wish for the throne.

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## Eldan

Is it me or is this entire arc starting to feel dragged out? I'm kind of fed up with duelling scenes and ever bigger special moves.

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## Narkis

It's not just you. I'm kinda reminded of Dragonball at this point.

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## sihnfahl

> It's not just you. I'm kinda reminded of Dragonball at this point.


Only ... without all the yelling.

Who knew breathing exercises like that played such a role in making someone stronger?

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## MrConsideration

I think we're nearing an end to the tournament arc - Solomon seems to be taking White Chain out for a 'you'll grow out of it when you're older' speech. This seems very gendered, especially as much of White Chain's growth is about her comfort with her gender identity, whereas Solomon speaks of 'great men'. 

I think the critique of Solomon is the quintessential critique of any stifling, bureaucratic, tyrannical regime: the trains may come on time but free expression and liberty are also fundamental to the human experience. George Orwell once said "To a man with toothache, utopia consists of not having toothache" and I think that's key here. Solomon has built a world without the anarchic violence or incessant war of Rayuba-as-was, but it depends on tyranny to maintain itself. I do think some scenes to show Solomon was a despot would have made this stronger. 

Yes, in the crapsack world(s) of KSBD I'd rather live in Solomon's ordered and perfect tyranny than most of the universe, but the reader and only true audience of the critique currently lives in the real world which has its democracies and its tyrants.

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## lord_khaine

I think its important not to get caught on SD's use of great men here.
Thats bringing baggage from our world to one where physical limitations are insignificant compared to ones will.
And around ½ the demi-urges are female or seemingly so. 

Its just a quirk of english, where great men are the, whats the word, neutral term?
Because saying great person sounds silly.

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## Sean Mirrsen

> I think its important not to get caught on SD's use of great men here.
> Thats bringing baggage from our world to one where physical limitations are insignificant compared to ones will.
> And around ½ the demi-urges are female or seemingly so. 
> 
> Its just a quirk of english, where great men are the, whats the word, neutral term?
> Because saying great person sounds silly.


It's definitely not something to get hung up on, here. Whether it's "one small step for a man", "walk a mile in another man's shoes", a "man-made object" or whatever else, in many common cases, "man" is just used to stand in for "human". We use "humanity" and "mankind" interchangeably. In a fictional setting, an "Empire of man" almost never means a literal empire of male humans - just regular humans, of all kinds, as opposed to an empire of non-humans.  

The only times it's worth fussing over is when it's explicitly meant to be a gendered term.

(tangentially related silly example: in a 4X game called Dominions, one of the nations is literally called "Man". It's modeled after... Arthurian legend or something, with Avalon et al. Its three most powerful and useful mage-commanders are all women. Men are just soldiers and squad leaders. Make of that what you will. :P)

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## Rydiro

I'm liking Solomon more and more. He really seems decent.
His only problem is thinking outside-the-box.

Edit: Has anyone an explanation, why Meti was easily royalty? Even zoss didnt manage to become royalty.

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## tyckspoon

> Edit: Has anyone an explanation, why Meti was easily royalty? Even zoss didnt manage to become royalty.


Recall her commentary about training in the sword, and those who obsess about it. Swap in Royalty, or more generally anybody who thinks the mere ability to perform massive amounts of violence is the same as being strong. Meti is the one who reached that peak, realized how pointless it was, and by discarding that misconception of what it meant to be strong transcended it. Zoss appears to have finally had the same realization but too late to make it work in his own cycle.

("Reach Heaven Through Violence", sure, but the part they don't tell you is you're mostly doing the violence on your own hangups and misconceptions that are holding you back.)

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## lord_khaine

> (tangentially related silly example: in a 4X game called Dominions, one of the nations is literally called "Man". It's modeled after... Arthurian legend or something, with Avalon et al. Its three most powerful and useful mage-commanders are all women. Men are just soldiers and squad leaders. Make of that what you will. :P)


Funny enough. The Board has a tiny, tiny subcommunity of Dom 5 players  :Small Big Grin: 

Else, wasnt it the other swordmaster for whom royalty came easy to?
The one who did not seek it. The one with the imperfect blow.

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## tyckspoon

> Else, wasnt it the other swordmaster for whom royalty came easy to?
> The one who did not seek it. The one with the imperfect blow.


Are you thinking about Maya (Meti's disciple along with Incubus, eventually learned the lessons Meti was trying to transmit and abdicated her position as warlord/leader of her armies in the Universal War, left Incubus with a huge inferiority complex so he's always posing and trying to prove he's really strong enough to be a Demiurge), or was this one of the historical/mythological characters from the text stories?

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## lord_khaine

> Are you thinking about Maya (Meti's disciple along with Incubus, eventually learned the lessons Meti was trying to transmit and abdicated her position as warlord/leader of her armies in the Universal War, left Incubus with a huge inferiority complex so he's always posing and trying to prove he's really strong enough to be a Demiurge), or was this one of the historical/mythological characters from the text stories?


Im not thinking of Maya. Its the other historical character besides Meti who were a legendary swordsman.

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## Professor Gnoll

> Im not thinking of Maya. Its the other historical character besides Meti who were a legendary swordsman.


You're thinking of Lord Intra.

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## lord_khaine

I am!  :Small Big Grin: 
Thats the guy for whom roalty came easy.

Also new comic. Interesting.

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## -D-

I'm getting Jotaro vs Dio fight flashbacks.

----------


## sihnfahl

Someone get White Chain some threads, stat.

Interesting pattern on her forehead now.

And quite the gambit.  White Chain realized that Solomon could easily fend off two attackers... but one who is within another?

The body / soul separation, sacrificing the body to allow the soul a shot at an attack that can't be defended against (Solomon having committed to the counter-attack)...

My.  And how will Solomon deal with what is now effectively a female version of him?  Her flesh is akin to his, more than likely...

----------


## Rydiro

> Someone get White Chain some threads, stat.
> 
> Interesting pattern on her forehead now.
> 
> And quite the gambit.  White Chain realized that Solomon could easily fend off two attackers... but one who is within another?
> 
> The body / soul separation, sacrificing the body to allow the soul a shot at an attack that can't be defended against (Solomon having committed to the counter-attack)...
> 
> My.  And how will Solomon deal with what is now effectively a female version of him?  Her flesh is akin to his, more than likely...


Seems like WC already got her wish. And solomon the daughter he always wanted.

----------


## lord_khaine

Hah.. look at that grin when she began moving in the stopped time.
Solomon though he could not get any harder when she developed the first new technique to fight him :D

Also.. nooh! it would be a sin to cover up such a divinely flawless body!

Still really, really curious to see if Solomon gets to survive this exchange. 
Does his body explore when time resumes?
Or did White Chain just draw the classic drop of blood from his cheek, to use as baseline for her own apothesis?

----------


## sihnfahl

> Still really, really curious to see if Solomon gets to survive this exchange.


He will.  None of the other demiurges have expired.  If anything, their losses have merely amplified their flaws.

Solomon resisted having daughters.  Now, not only does he have a 'daughter', but it's against his will.

And she's probably bested him.

----------


## Iruka

*Spoiler: King of Swords 10-163*
Show

No blood ...


Every time l see Solomon, I want to start working out ...

----------


## Spacewolf

> *Spoiler: King of Swords 10-163*
> Show
> 
> No blood ...
> 
> 
> Every time l see Solomon, I want to start working out ...


*Spoiler*
Show

I could barely tell due to the rain but the look of disappointment makes it look that way yea.

----------


## Eldan

So it wasn't his blood that did this. That's one of the number one fan theories out the window.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well. That fan theory did also deserve to die anyway. 

I think it was pretty clear this was White Chains Apothesis. 

And also. Yes. Poor SD. 
He was so close. So very close to escape his prison. The excitement was visible when White Chain once mor exceded his expectations.
By getting up to meet him as he came to finish her. 

But she only bruised him. So of course he is disapointed.

----------


## Eldan

Yeah, but I liked the idea that White Chain's apotheosis was due to blood, at least partially. Solomon's statement was along the lines of "whoever spills my blood will have their wish granted". This is White Chain's wish. I liked the theory that Solomon was more literal than assumed and has literally wish-granting blood.

----------


## Morty

This is appropriate. If White Chain had drawn his blood, she would have validated his entire absurd tournament scheme and given him what he wants. But this fight was about her, not him.

----------


## Eldan

Fair enough. Though I mostly want to know how she did it.

----------


## lord_khaine

Im quite certain that White Chain would also like to know  :Small Big Grin: 

It seems pretty clear this is as much a surprise for her as for Solomon.
But i guess its because she managed to take a step towards becomming Royalty.

----------


## Shogo

I suppose the question is . . . In her new state, is she even capable of repeating what she just did? Can she still separate her spirit from her new meat shell? Or, if there was another clash of blows, would she just explode like a meat pinata and permanently die?

----------


## lord_khaine

I think its quite likely that at this point, White Chain is human for good and bad. 
And so i think she would absolutely get smashed if she fought Solomon again.

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

Well. "Human". As human as an angelic spirit gaining flesh from the blood of a demiurge can be, I suppose.

----------


## -D-

> Well. "Human". As human as an angelic spirit gaining flesh from the blood of a demiurge can be, I suppose.


Blood of demiurge? That wasn't shown. At all.

----------


## Eldan

> I think its quite likely that at this point, White Chain is human for good and bad. 
> And so i think she would absolutely get smashed if she fought Solomon again.


I'm not sure I'd call her human. Her soul is still white, while human souls are black fire.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I'm not sure I'd call her human. Her soul is still white, while human souls are black fire.


I dont really care about the color of her soul after this.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Blood of demiurge? That wasn't shown. At all.


Sure, but people have been super attached to the idea that her transformation _must_ have been a result of the wish granting tournament powers? Wait those were a thing? When was that ever stated? Yes Solomon gives you whatever you want, but I don't think it was like in the literal a drop of blood casts a wish spell sort of way. Whatever the mechanics are irrelevant. The idea that White Chain through intense soul searing trials declares her identity and reaches a new apotheosis of what it means to be a being of White Fire suddenly has to rely on Solomon for that transformation would be such a massive thematic ****up I would never credit it to Abaddon.

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

> The idea that White Chain through intense soul searing trials declares her identity and reaches a new apotheosis of what it means to be a being of White Fire suddenly has to rely on Solomon for that transformation would be such a massive thematic ****up I would never credit it to Abaddon.


The wish-granting has nothing to do with it. Whatever the path she took to get there, I buy the idea, that an angel spontaneously manifesting a flesh and blood body _the same exact moment_ her spirit makes direct physical contact with Solomon, _leaving a mark_, and the body she manifests having distinct physical similarities to Solomon's, is all the product of her own will and serendipity with the mark she left on Solomon being purely coincidental, even less than any of the alternatives.

The drop of blood didn't "grant" her the body, as a 'wish'. But it granted her the means and the power to obtain one.

----------


## Dragonus45

> The wish-granting has nothing to do with it. Whatever the path she took to get there, I buy the idea, that an angel spontaneously manifesting a flesh and blood body _the same exact moment_ her spirit makes direct physical contact with Solomon, _leaving a mark_, and the body she manifests having distinct physical similarities to Solomon's, is all the product of her own will and serendipity with the mark she left on Solomon being purely coincidental, even less than any of the alternatives.
> 
> The drop of blood didn't "grant" her the body, as a 'wish'. But it granted her the means and the power to obtain one.


No, leaving aside that there was never even a drop of blood produced to cause this, this was _White Chains_ victory over herself and the wheel. _Her_ moment of victory and apotheosis, to attribute it to anything less then her own person transcendent martial arts bull**** is to diminish the moment. At best I would see an argument about her literally stealing a piece of his godhood and that's about it for allowing him space in her narrative. And the only similarity I see to Solomon is them both being black, which for some reason I already sort of thought as her as anyways.

----------


## BRC

IIRC, Angels are pure White Flame, contained within their shells, Devils are pure Black Flame, contained by their masks.


So, one of the questions is, did White Chain become human, or is she still an Angel (White Flame), just now clad in flesh instead of ash and stone. 

The former is completely unprecedented, and we have no context for how such a thing might occur, so it might as well be Tournament-Fight Wish Magic.

The second would require something creating a body capable of holding White Chain's angelic essence the way her stone shell normally does. It looks like her body was formed out of the crumbling remains of her old one, which doesn't really provide any evidence one way or another. 


Now, the mythos as it's been presented doesn't really provide any room for somebody getting a new body or changing their essence by Achieving Self-Actualization alone. We have seen "Red Magic", here https://killsixbilliondemons.com/com...f-swords-4-37/ which Allison used to change air into a peach. And we get the foreshadowy line "All things can change form, wobblebrains, even idiot girls like thee". 

According to the fan wiki (Although I havn't been able to track down any actual details from the cited sources), White Chain used "Black Art", which is shapeshifting. 

Whether Red or Black art was used, assuming this was all White Chain's doing, she did it to herself, apparently instinctual and unintentionally and without the usual incantation we've come to associate with the Art.

----------


## mystic1110

Reach Heaven Through Worms.

----------


## Thales

Okay, but how would anyone in the crowd (or even Gog Agog for that matter) see Solomon David get punched? The final bout with White Chain happened in Ki Rata superspeed. I guess that he didn't catch his bangles like he did with the exploding the people who attacked in the bonus round, but while that might clue people in that something went wrong, they'd still have no idea what. To them, this should look like he flexed, teleported, and the injured angel disappeared  and also some naked lady appeared elsewhere in the arena.

Gog Agog and some more metaphysically sensitive members of the crowd might be able to tell (maybe  Allison, Cio, and apparently Vigilant Gaze all don't seem to have any idea what happened) that the apparent new person is White Chain, but that certainly won't be very many. We, the reader, got a privileged view that it doesn't make sense for the crowd to be reacting to.

----------


## mystic1110

Slow-Motion Replay?

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

They saw what was _supposed_ to be the final clash, they saw that Solomon touched his face (and possibly saw the mark), and also they saw that despite the apparent finality of the clash, Solomon still has an opponent in the arena. They know _something_ happened, something that wasn't expected. Even if they didn't see the details, they saw a near-shattered angel suddenly become a human, and saw Solomon touching his face in apparent disbelief. It's enough to come to a conclusion, even if, as Gog-Agog points out, it's a wrong one.

----------


## lord_khaine

> The former is completely unprecedented, and we have no context for how such a thing might occur, so it might as well be Tournament-Fight Wish Magic.


Except there is no such a thing as tournament-fight wish magic.
What there is, is a lot of different ways to undego apothesis, and become something more than you were before.

Though this was definitly not something of the arts.
I think its quite clear this was different. And unique.




> They saw what was supposed to be the final clash, they saw that Solomon touched his face (and possibly saw the mark), and also they saw that despite the apparent finality of the clash, Solomon still has an opponent in the arena. They know something happened, something that wasn't expected. Even if they didn't see the details, they saw a near-shattered angel suddenly become a human, and saw Solomon touching his face in apparent disbelief. It's enough to come to a conclusion, even if, as Gog-Agog points out, it's a wrong one.


Yeah alternatively, Gog-Agog would have needed to infiltrate as little as ½ a % of the crowd? 1/10 of a %?
And then just yell stuff like "did you see? she hit him?!?!?!?" to change its mood, and make it spread.

----------


## Anti-Eagle

Finally got around to reading this comic. I like it.

----------


## mystic1110

The mob is eternal.

----------


## Rydiro

> Except there is no such a thing as tournament-fight wish magic.


A Demiurge decreed that you get granted a wish should you draw his blood. That decree was held up by a Millenium of bloodshed and sacrifice of soulflames. I think it probable that there actually is tournament wish magic. That or WC got the black art of creation. Or maybe both.

----------


## BRC

> A Demiurge decreed that you get granted a wish should you draw his blood. That decree was held up by a Millenium of bloodshed and sacrifice of soulflames. I think it probable that there actually is tournament wish magic. That or WC got the black art of creation. Or maybe both.


Second is more likely IMO. Demiurges are powerful, but they are not, as far as we can tell, reality warpers who unconsciously reshape the world according to their whims and words. They appear to have the same general toolkit as everybody else, Martial Arts, The Art, ect, just with a considerably bigger "Battery" as it were. They have some unique Tricks, Incubus's shenanigans, Gog-Agog's very nature, but we have yet to see any indication that the Keys directly grant them those abilities. If Demiurges were reality warpers, I think it would have come up by now, especially since Allison has been an untrained keybearer this entire time.

Like, it's possible, but I'd say there's no substantial evidence in favor. It "Might As Well be tournament wish magic" because it's clearly SOMETHING, and we don't have any strong evidence towards any particular explanation as of yet.

----------


## Rydiro

> Second is more likely IMO. Demiurges are powerful, but they are not, as far as we can tell, reality warpers who unconsciously reshape the world according to their whims and words.


Literally the first thing Demiurge Mottom did was turn her husband into a tree, that cemented her fear of him and her fear/staving off of old age. If that isnt unconcious reality warping, I dont know what else should count.

Also, WC could also have used white art (art of altering oneself).

I doubt we get any definitive answer about this miracle from the author.

----------


## lord_khaine

> A Demiurge decreed that you get granted a wish should you draw his blood. That decree was held up by a Millenium of bloodshed and sacrifice of soulflames. I think it probable that there actually is tournament wish magic. That or WC got the black art of creation. Or maybe both.


This theory kinda fails on that she did not in fact draw his blood.
Also it fails to account for that Chain was already changing before she landed a punch. 
She got up in the frozen second. And her spirit body had changed as well before she landed the blow.




> Literally the first thing Demiurge Mottom did was turn her husband into a tree, that cemented her fear of him and her fear/staving off of old age. If that isnt unconcious reality warping, I dont know what else should count.


Mottom didnt turn her husband into a tree. She slit his throat and burried him in the garden. 
He just refused to stay down there.

White Chains apothethis was a miracle. One that indeed does not have any explanation.

----------


## Eldan

Oh by Aesma, she has sparkles. It's too late, we lost her.

----------


## Rydiro

> Mottom didnt turn her husband into a tree. She slit his throat and burried him in the garden.


Mottom turns people into trees. Her dead husband turned into a tree.
Ergo, Mottom did it.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Mottom turns people into trees. Her dead husband turned into a tree.
> Ergo, Mottom did it.


Omg.. what the heck is that for an argument?  :Small Sigh: 
Its on the line of "rocks cant fly, you cant fly, your a rock"

----------


## Rydiro

> Omg.. what the heck is that for an argument? 
> Its on the line of "rocks cant fly, you cant fly, your a rock"


Its an indication. Its a better argument than "a dead person did it". 
Mottom even explicitly went into several days of sleep to make that miracle happen. She had the key at that time. So yeah, to sum it up, evidence points to Mottom doing it. Not a dead Hastet, whom we know nothing about.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Its an indication. Its a better argument than "a dead person did it".
> Mottom even explicitly went into several days of sleep to make that miracle happen. She had the key at that time. So yeah, to sum it up, evidence points to Mottom doing it. Not a dead Hastet, whom we know nothing about.


except its not an indication. This is a world where an Angel became human though will and defiance. 
"a dead person did it" is -absolutely- a valid argument. Miracles are possible. Noone says miracles have to be nice.

So yes, we actually dont have any evidence of Mottom doing it. 
We have motivation against it, as Mottom hated the guy enough to kill him. No reason for her to do anything to keep him around.

----------


## Eldan

I mean, one could argue that the entire plot of this series is "a dead person did it", if we count Zoss.

----------


## D-naras

> Second is more likely IMO. Demiurges are powerful, but they are not, as far as we can tell, reality warpers who unconsciously reshape the world according to their whims and words.


Didn't SD say that he put the sun on Rayuba? I kinda believed him when he said that to Zaid.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Didn't SD say that he put the sun on Rayuba? I kinda believed him when he said that to Zaid.


He did.
Both of them.

----------


## Eldan

But we can't know if he just willed them into existence, or had them towed from somewhere else, or constructed in a giant hangar, or performed some giant ritual.

----------


## Rydiro

> We have motivation against it, as Mottom hated the guy enough to kill him. No reason for her to do anything to keep him around.


It was explicitly not a conscious decision. Curious though, if she really wanted him dead she could have burned him like allison wanted to. So she did keep him around, obeying him and trying the fruit of an abominable tree. She 100% wanted and DID keep him around.

----------


## sihnfahl

> So she did keep him around, obeying him and trying the fruit of an abominable tree. She 100% wanted and DID keep him around.


It's a perverse tree of life.

The deaths feed the tree.  The tree grows the fruit.  The fruit keeps her looking young.

And she's afraid.

Of growing old.  Of being old.

So she wasn't really 'obeying' him.  He was the easiest means of getting what she wanted to maintain ... her vanity.

----------


## mystic1110

Rydiro's point being is that she _wanted_ to preserve her vanity and her power warped circumstances and reality so that she _could_.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Rydiro's point being is that she _wanted_ to preserve her vanity and her power warped circumstances and reality so that she _could_.


Oh, I got that, but is it him she's obeying, or her subconscious self?

She warped reality, resulting in him turning into a tree that provides her fruit that keeps her looking young, in exchange for the regular murder of young women.

If her subconscious warped reality to turn him into the tree, and to make said fruit, would it not then be her subconscious that also put in the murder part?

----------


## mystic1110

A lot of the power in this universe seems like self-actualization; you are trapped by your power. Whether that power comes from your Id or your Ego, depends on the person. So yeah - I can buy the interpretation that Mottom's subconscious fear combined with her innate power warped causality to create the circumstances that she finds herself stuck in. A prison of her own making. As to why the circumstances are so brutal instead of just life everlasting - I think it makes sense given that the circumstances where created through fear. The fear of losing her youth and beauty and the fear of her husband. I simply think, like all good horror stories, that fear warped the expression of her power to create this worst case scenario. Then the scenario compounds itself on that fear and guilt of keeping that fear alive. The only freedom would be a good therapist  :Small Smile: .

----------


## sihnfahl

What's sad is that Mottom knows ....

And instead, grasps at someone who can wield the Power but isn't playing the Game.

----------


## Rydiro

> If her subconscious warped reality to turn him into the tree, and to make said fruit, would it not then be her subconscious that also put in the murder part?


Good question.  Probably hard to answer, from the things we know. Abbadon said immortality isn't an easy feat, since (human) soul flames tend to deteriorate. Perhaps squeezing out other soul flames (like devils do) is the easiest path to practical immortality. Perhaps one that Hastet was already walking (increased, brutal, literal? appetite for young women).
Most other demiurges seem to kill people personally and regularly too.

EDIT: Looking at the things Mottom did, she didnt care about the Murder part. As soon as the tree blew up she went: "There are other paths to immortality, i will find them." Implying she never bothered to do so before. So murdering some pretties, who could challenge her best looks is totally okay for her.

----------


## Rydiro

New comic. Wherein Allison meets Zaid.

I hope we get to see that Zaid was a confused teen like Allison was when they were together. And that he is actually kind of a decent person.

----------


## Eldan

Huh. I didn't have the impression they were in enough of a relationship to warrant tearful public hugging, but who knows.

----------


## Ibrinar

They being the last remnants of their homeworld to each other probably is enough by itself.

----------


## Dragonus45

> New comic. Wherein Allison meets Zaid.
> 
> I hope we get to see that Zaid was a confused teen like Allison was when they were together. And that he is actually kind of a decent person.


That's already the feeling I was getting, so it would make sense.

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah. Why the heck should be not be a decent person?  :Small Confused:

----------


## Dragonus45

> Yeah. Why the heck should be not be a decent person?


Well he is male, so one assumes something will turn out to be wrong with him before things finish shaking out just from that alone.

----------


## Olinser

> Yeah. Why the heck should be not be a decent person?


We have seen very little of Zaid, so a lot of people are basing their opinions of him from what little we have seen - namely, him pressuring an obviously uncomfortable Allison into sex, and the unanimous opinion of her house sisters that he was, in their words, 'such a creep'.

It's a bit thin, obviously, but then again we're pretty certain to get some more character info on him.

----------


## Olinser

> Huh. I didn't have the impression they were in enough of a relationship to warrant tearful public hugging, but who knows.


Their relationship? No.

But Zaid isn't a person to Allison so much as he is a GOAL. He represents the entire objective she's been training and struggling towards for pretty much the entire story so far, so at least on her part, tearful hugging is warranted, as he represents the successful completion of the mission she's basically dedicated her life towards for the past couple years.

----------


## Spacewolf

> We have seen very little of Zaid, so a lot of people are basing their opinions of him from what little we have seen - namely, him pressuring an obviously uncomfortable Allison into sex, and the unanimous opinion of her house sisters that he was, in their words, 'such a creep'.
> 
> It's a bit thin, obviously, but then again we're pretty certain to get some more character info on him.


Pretty sure that's been retconned as well. Which could be why there's a split with some seeing the old version first and some people coming in and seeing him differently.

----------


## Eldan

The version currently on the site still seems to be what I read back when, and there's definitely _some_ amount of pressure there and she seems much less comfortable with the entire thing than he is.

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah see, thats the bit thats confusing me. The claim about Zack pressuring anyone. 
He backs off when she express concern. Waits for Allison to -litterally- say she wants it before continuing. 
And still people find stuff to complain about?
Even after learning Allison litterally planned to lose her virginity, just because she wanted to be someone else?
Its her who are using Zach.  :Small Tongue: 
Also, its her first time and she is sober. Of course its going to be awkward.

----------


## Rydiro

> Also, its her first time and she is sober. Of course its going to be awkward.


I think it was Zaids first time too (author said it somewhere). He was awkward, because he had no idea either.

----------


## Gildedragon

it's all that Solomon D wanted, why does he look so pensive then. 
did white chain read him too right?

----------


## Narkis

It's what he SAID he wanted, and it's definitely not in the way he wanted it. Next page is when we find out if it was the truth or if he's just another powerhungry tyrant with an excuse.

----------


## Bobb

> It's what he SAID he wanted, and it's definitely not in the way he wanted it. Next page is when we find out if it was the truth or if he's just another powerhungry tyrant with an excuse.





> it's all that Solomon D wanted, why does he look so pensive then. 
> did white chain read him too right?


No it isn't. Dude doesn't believe in democracy at all.

He SAID he wanted someone to prove their worth by matching him in strength so David could abdicate without the kingdom changing in structure.

----------


## Spacewolf

Yea SD wanted someone as powerful as his to protect his kingdom after he left, keeping the same power structure he built. To be honest White chain is being ludicrously hopeful here, she should realise the most likely outcome for this is an intergalactic war.

----------


## Gildedragon

> It's what he SAID he wanted, and it's definitely not in the way he wanted it. Next page is when we find out if it was the truth or if he's just another powerhungry tyrant with an excuse.


By holding onto kingship he becomes unable to reach for Royalty

----------


## Dragonus45

> Yea SD wanted someone as powerful as his to protect his kingdom after he left, keeping the same power structure he built. To be honest White chain is being ludicrously hopeful here, she should realise the most likely outcome for this is an intergalactic war.


Ideally Solomon would remain to Shepard the new nation while it transitions to a democracy while doing his best not to enforce himself on its policies this maintaining his absolute protection whole being able to build themselves up as something greater. The reality is just that he could never keep his hands off.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Ideally Solomon would remain to Shepard the new nation while it transitions to a democracy while doing his best not to enforce himself on its policies this maintaining his absolute protection whole being able to build themselves up as something greater. The reality is just that he could never keep his hands off.


He'd be too inclined to meddle, yes; his pride wouldn't have him as a protector, but not a leader.

----------


## Shogo

Or he agrees to let the people decide for themselves and they decide, "We'd prefer it if Solomon stayed in charge, actually."

----------


## Vahnavoi

> it's all that Solomon D wanted, why does he look so pensive then. 
> did white chain read him too right?


It's not at all what Salami Dave wanted. He wanted to lose on his own terms. _ He didn't._  His boner for this whole thing is dead as stone.

----------


## BRC

> It's not at all what Salami Dave wanted. He wanted to lose on his own terms. _ He didn't._  His boner for this whole thing is dead as stone.


What he wanted, theoretically, was to find, basically, Salami Dave 2.0. Somebody his equal in physical strength and will who can serve his role as both absolute monarch and Chief Defender of the Celestial Empire, so he could go off and meditate or whatever confident that his empire was maintained exactly as he wanted it.
His Pepperoni Steve as it were. 
He didn't think he'd ever FIND pepperoni steve, but he looked anyway. 

He's being asked to trust other people, at the very least with the ruling of his empire (I don't know if the system will work if, say, an elected council makes decisions, but the old God-Emperor sits around in case he needs to punch somebody for the good of the empire, and Salami Dave probably couldn't go seek royalty in that case.)

----------


## JavaScribe

New page.

Solomon David does raise a valid point. White Chain's request may sound simple on paper, but in practice, there's a lot of work to be done, the most important of which would be figuring out how to defend his people against demiurge level threats least they just get devoured by someone worse than he is. Still, maybe it'll give him the nudge he needed to at least get started.

What do you suppose
*Spoiler*
Show

Jadis wants?

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

> What do you suppose
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Jadis wants?


Judging by _that_ reaction... nothing good.

I mean, those words rarely preclude anything particularly pleasant happening, especially not when shouted, _especially_ not when shouted by someone in a position of power.

----------


## Eldan

So, the interesting thing to me there is that Solomon doesn't instantly panic when he sees Jadis. In panel five, he is calm. Then, something, presumably Jadis, begins to glow red, and he loses it. 

So she's not just about to say something. She's doing something. Which given the colour makes me think of fire and explosions.

----------


## JavaScribe

> Judging by _that_ reaction... nothing good.
> 
> I mean, those words rarely preclude anything particularly pleasant happening, especially not when shouted, _especially_ not when shouted by someone in a position of power.


Nonsense! I'm sure Jadis just came to lighten up the festivities with some magnificent red fireworks!

----------


## Dragonus45

I think a certain onmicidal demiurge is about to pay a visit, and the fear isn't that Jadis is there but what Jadis is responding to.

----------


## Shogo

I do like that Solomon seems as though he was going to keep his word. He wasn't rejecting the request out of hand or laughing it off, but basically saying, "This won't be easy nor will it be instantaneous. I hope you're prepared for a wait."

Though I was also half expecting something like, "Fine. We'll let the people choose."

And then the people just say they'd prefer to keep Solomon around as their leader.

----------


## Narkis

To me it doesn't look like he was going to keep his word, but immediately went for yet another excuse. As I've said before, every dictator ever said he's doing it for the people. There is always an excuse: the people aren't ready, it's not the right time, there's no one more qualified, the enemies of the state are lurking behind the corner, etc, etc. Solomon is nothing but a self-serving, and possibly self-deluding, hypocrite.

That aside, Jadis never even crossed my mind as a candidate for the demiurge to crash the party.

----------


## Eldan

I mean, she had to show up in the story at _some_ point.

----------


## sihnfahl

> To me it doesn't look like he was going to keep his word, but immediately went for yet another excuse.


I believe his words are: "What you ask cannot lightly be granted..."

Which, I suppose, depending on how you perceive him, can be him setting up for the reasons why ... or an excuse as to why not.

Being a stand-in of -pride-, though, I'm leaning to the second.  

It does look like Jagganoth is going to crash the party, and in style.

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah BS. Im STUNNED by how many people, especially in the comment section, but also here, are still trying themselves into a pretzel.
To somehow frame whatever SD does in the most negative way. What White Chain asks for can indeed not be done lightly. 
The Celestrial Empire has been an Empire for generations. A very top heavy one. 

And i think history is full of bloody examples on the kind of chaos that follows when a government suddenly vanishes or changes to swiftly.
Implementing what White Chain asks is likely the work of at least a decade?

So i think SD wanted White Chain to be certain she knew what was being asked.
As such, misconceptions about him being meant to represent a SIN instead of being a complex character aside.
Then we see his chief concern is for his people. His very first though was to evacuate this city.

----------


## mystic1110

There is no pretzel - people are guessing he was going to say something to effect of "It'll take to too long so I can't grant you your wish" rather than "I will grant you your wish but doing so safely will take a while".

----------


## Spacewolf

I dunno here it's ok but the comments section of the comic is pretty impressively hostile.

It should also be remembered White chain failed (Something the comments section seems to ignore) and is being forced into this because he cares to much about appearances. Any extra time between this and SD stepping aside could have been used to give the group some much needed training, although that's obviously not happening now.

----------


## Vahnavoi

It seems to me Solomon's reply was left deliberately ambiguous, because the author remembers there's a multiversal war going and it's _ so on_ now.

----------


## Shogo

Eh. It's mostly okay here. But holy hell does the comment section of the comic go out of its way to maliciously interpret every single thing Solomon does or says.

At least he cares enough to order the evacuation of the city. I don't think any of the other Demiurges would have bothered given he's supposed to be the only one who still thinks of himself as a hero.

----------


## Rydiro

> At least he cares enough to order the evacuation of the city. I don't think any of the other Demiurges would have bothered given he's supposed to be the only one who still thinks of himself as a hero.


To be fair, he is a better hero than Allison so far.
"Your Empire could use more democracy and self-sufficiency." is such a luxury critique (both IC and IRL) that it practically proves solomon right.
I mean, Allison is a literal bank-robber.

----------


## Rakaydos

> To be fair, he is a better hero than Allison so far.
> "Your Empire could use more democracy and self-sufficiency." is such a luxury critique (both IC and IRL) that it practically proves solomon right.
> I mean, Allison is a literal bank-robber.


Plato, the greek philosopher, claimed that an enlightened dictatorship was the best form of goverment, but that ensuring said dictatorship remained enlightened was the real trick. "Who will guard the guardians?"

Solomon is an immortal god-king who takes pride in his enlightened rule. But he has no successor. Should he fall, the empire will fall as well.

"Democracy is the worst form of goverment, except for all the others." the whim of the mob is itself immortal and self serving. Gog Agog knows this better than anyone else. There's always another Gog.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Solomon is an immortal god-king who takes pride in his enlightened rule. But he has no successor. Should he fall, the empire will fall as well.


Which is where I see Pride in him.

He deliberately, using his power, beget only sons.  For twenty five generations.  Yet all of his sons have been, apparently, nothing more than advisors and generals.

He made his planet have -two suns-.

I have no doubt it would be within his power to not only beget a son who would be physically his equal when he was young, but also bring him to his equal, if not superior, in intellect.  And groom him to have the 'right' mindset to continue the basis of his rule.

He just ... doesn't want to.




> There's always another Gog.


It's not that there's another Gog ... it's that they're ALL Gog.

----------


## lord_khaine

> He deliberately, using his power, beget only sons. For twenty five generations. Yet all of his sons have been, apparently, nothing more than advisors and generals.


Yeah. This is another of the pretzel examples i was talking about. 
Honestly, how the heck does Solomon only having sons become a thing of pride?  :Small Confused: 
If anything, its a case of melancholy and sorrow. He lost 2 daughters in the war. And have since not had any. 




> He made his planet have -two suns-.


Can be twisted into almost any emotion.
Wrath : They took my sun? ill show them! ill show them! TWO!!! SUNS!!!
Greed : I WANT ALL THE SUNS!
Lust : I so badly want a sun, 1 isnt enough any more.
Sloth : If i get a spare sun, its less work if one goes out. 




> I have no doubt it would be within his power to not only beget a son who would be physically his equal when he was young, but also bring him to his equal, if not superior, in intellect. And groom him to have the 'right' mindset to continue the basis of his rule.
> 
> He just ... doesn't want to.


Again this is something we absolutely lack any evidence for. That Solomon can control any more than the gender of his child. 
Or that you can just randomly train someone up to become a demi-urge. Instead of that being a titel you need to forge though trial and hardship.

----------


## Ibrinar

Why are you treating the lines of sihnfahl's post as if they don't belong together but are separate arguments?

----------


## Thales

So we have the end of this book.

I think I don't much care for it? This feels abrupt, doesn't really expand the narrative for Solomon David or any of the protagonists, and we still don't have any explanations of what's going on. White Chain's manifesting of a human body specifically wasn't an angel thing, so how did she do it? How did she keep moving even in Solomon's super-speed? If the idea is just that, as Vigilant Gaze said, an angel changing can be something miraculous, but that honestly is pretty close to hand of the author. And all the no-name folks who got obliterated by Solomon  in-universe, none of them had as good of a story as White Chain?

Also, what exactly was Gog Agog's original plan? Fixing fights to get Allison into a match against Solomon doesn't help if she just gets obliterated in that matchup. Yeah, Allison has theoretically the most power of anyone in the comic, but extremely little skill, and so far, narrative > skill > power (see e.g. Meti, an unaugmented human who can severely damage Juggernaut, and Zoss, who originally overthrew the angels with just martial arts bull****, assuming he's not a member of the cast time traveling).

I recall there was some speculation that that one person in Allison's group had been taken over by Gog. We're not getting any resolution on that front this book? Did White Chain's wish for Solomon to abdicate instigate the arrival of Jadis and Jagganoth or was that coincidence? If so, did that demand matter at all?

Finally, we never got much of a sense for what things are actually like on Rayuba. When Order of the Stick had its gladiatorial games arc, we got to see a lot more of the Empire of Blood. But in this whole arc here, we got very little. A large part of the reason I and others have a negative view of Solomon David is from the comic's retelling of the dividing the baby story, which presented life for the average citizen of Rayuba as tightly controlled and subject to draconian laws. We didn't really see anything for or against that proposition here.

----------


## Olinser

> So we have the end of this book.
> 
> I think I don't much care for it? This feels abrupt, doesn't really expand the narrative for Solomon David or any of the protagonists, and we still don't have any explanations of what's going on. White Chain's manifesting of a human body specifically wasn't an angel thing, so how did she do it? How did she keep moving even in Solomon's super-speed? If the idea is just that, as Vigilant Gaze said, an angel changing can be something miraculous, but that honestly is pretty close to hand of the author. And all the no-name folks who got obliterated by Solomon  in-universe, none of them had as good of a story as White Chain?
> 
> Also, what exactly was Gog Agog's original plan? Fixing fights to get Allison into a match against Solomon doesn't help if she just gets obliterated in that matchup. Yeah, Allison has theoretically the most power of anyone in the comic, but extremely little skill, and so far, narrative > skill > power (see e.g. Meti, an unaugmented human who can severely damage Juggernaut, and Zoss, who originally overthrew the angels with just martial arts bull****, assuming he's not a member of the cast time traveling).
> 
> I recall there was some speculation that that one person in Allison's group had been taken over by Gog. We're not getting any resolution on that front this book? Did White Chain's wish for Solomon to abdicate instigate the arrival of Jadis and Jagganoth or was that coincidence? If so, did that demand matter at all?
> 
> Finally, we never got much of a sense for what things are actually like on Rayuba. When Order of the Stick had its gladiatorial games arc, we got to see a lot more of the Empire of Blood. But in this whole arc here, we got very little. A large part of the reason I and others have a negative view of Solomon David is from the comic's retelling of the dividing the baby story, which presented life for the average citizen of Rayuba as tightly controlled and subject to draconian laws. We didn't really see anything for or against that proposition here.


What it feels like to me is that Gog wants chaos and the war to finally happen. Gog, due to the fact that it's EVERYWHERE, successfully identified Allison's location and identity. Gog then manipulated Allison into taking part in the public tournament. Simply kidnapping her or pointing her out wouldn't do - Gog taking the Key wouldn't make it strong enough to take on all the other demiurges.

Presumably behind the scenes, Gog informed the other Demiurges that Allison was taking part in the tournament and was going to fight Solomon, with the obvious implication that Solomon was going to take the Key himself.

Jagganoth either saw the opportunity to seize the Key himself, or thought that it would weaken Solomon enough to finally go to war.

Gog's plan seems to have been to goad Allison into publicly revealing herself as a catalyst to finally spark the war, and seems to have succeeded smashingly.

----------


## understatement

Final book? Wow. 

It feels...I dunno, like a _lot_ of things were left unanswered, but I'm looking forward to the next and last arcs. Jagganoth looks scary.

----------


## Eldan

Yeah, put me down on side of "things are moving far too quickly". If that's the last book, we have never seen and probably never will see the worlds of half the Demiurges. I still have no idea what Jadis' deal is, for example. Or Incubus' empire outside of his palace of sad addicts and blood. Or a Gog-Agog world, though there I can guess. We don't know how White Chain did anything. And somehow, we have tons of storylines left to resolve. What is Meti's deal? What goals, specifically, are Incubus and Gog-Agog trying to achieve? Is Mammon's War going anywhere? How are the angels going to get involved? What was the Devil's deal? 

IF all of that just ends up as quick cameoes instead of actual storylines, I'm going to be severely disappointed.

----------


## Rydiro

> And all the no-name folks who got obliterated by Solomon  in-universe, none of them had as good of a story as White Chain?


Yeah Im with you there. The message of this book is "Work together, trust each other, friendship is magic". Apparently only if one of your friends has the master key and is fated to win. For everyone else, the last scene obliterates thousands of lives and proves the Demiurges right. To quote Xykon "Power is Power". Thats the real message here. Get a key or die, noob.

----------


## BRC

I mean, this has never really been a story about a group of The Right People Doing The Right things.
The only thing I'd argue that White Chain/our protagonists were right about this whole thing was her declaration that Salami Dave is holding the tourney despite never expecting anybody to actually draw the prized drop of blood. That the Tourney is anything other than a continual declaration of Salami Dave's position as God-Emperor by establishing that he's the toughest guy in his section of existence. 

I'd also argue that White Chain was right when she accused Salami Dave of being "Terrified of a world that's grown past you", annd calling him out for acting like he doesn't want to rule when he very much does. 


But they havn't done a great job as far as actually saying that Salami Dave, whatever his motives, is wrong. That he should step down. His empire appears to have been thriving until this moment, and this moment also demonstrates that, within the reality constructed by the comic, having an unkillable god-king is kind of important for any society, since if you don't, one of the other unkillable god-kings can show up and wreck you. The Ideal situation might be that some other government runs things, and your demiurge spends all their time doing cosmic sit-ups until the time comes to defend the empire from outside aggression, but even then your entire society exists at the mercy of your Demiurge, who could take over at any moment with nothing but their own word to stop them. 

 All the multiverse is run by Demiurges. Roll the dice, 1/7th chance of living in a thriving, if authoritarian, society with a high quality of life, vs a 6/7ths chances of living in a kleptocratic hellscape nightmare realm. "Rulership by Unkillable god-king" isn't a great look, but the first one we see our heroes actually take direct, intentional steps to bring down is the one that seems to be doing pretty well.

----------


## Dragonus45

"No more Demiurges." is clearly the only correct solution to beginning to rebalance the wheels of this world. But considering that so much of the power these individuals, and most of the people talked about in the lore, can be gained just through proper meditation and pushups removing the keys would just limit the scale of the danger to local worlds and remove some of the highest ends of the madness.

----------


## Rydiro

> All the multiverse is run by Demiurges. Roll the dice, 1/7th chance of living in a thriving, if authoritarian, society with a high quality of life, vs a 6/7ths chances of living in a kleptocratic hellscape nightmare realm. "Rulership by Unkillable god-king" isn't a great look, but the first one we see our heroes actually take direct, intentional steps to bring down is the one that seems to be doing pretty well.


I think its the authors critique of dictatorship/patriarchy, while avoiding a strawman argument against those. He picked the best of the 7 kingdoms to demonstrate "This is not enough."
Ironically, his own worldbuilding proves him wrong. Cause an omnicidal god exists.

More and more I believe that Allison and her gang are actually massive inept hypocrites. They do not solve any large scale problems nor do they take responsibility for the fallout of their actions. Well okay, allison beat up a few 'criminals' (are there criminals in absence of law?), you know, after she robbed a bank.

----------


## mystic1110

If anything it's an argument that Solomon should have gotten off his ass and left his kingdom to others so he can concentrate on training to be more than a blip for the Red God. He was so busy being the benevolent dictator that he had to rely on pact with the other demiurges as a deterrence for Jagganoth, a pact that he should have realized was worthless as the six of them are hardly up to the task given that they have been play acting being kings and despots rather than understanding that the war continues and only one of them has been getting stronger.

----------


## Rydiro

> If anything it's an argument that Solomon should have gotten off his ass and left his kingdom to others so he can concentrate on training to be more than a blip for the Red God. He was so busy being the benevolent dictator that he had to rely on pact with the other demiurges as a deterrence for Jagganoth, a pact that he should have realized was worthless as the six of them are hardly up to the task given that they have been play acting being kings and despots rather than understanding that the war continues and only one of them has been getting stronger.


Kind of a logical flaw that they let jaggs build up a power imbalance for like the last thousand years.

----------


## BRC

> I think its the authors critique of dictatorship/patriarchy, while avoiding a strawman argument against those. He picked the best of the 7 kingdoms to demonstrate "This is not enough."
> Ironically, his own worldbuilding proves him wrong. Cause an omnicidal god exists.


I mean, it's the same dynamic that shows up in a lot of fantastical works, a thing is justified by the fictional world it exists in. In this instance, we're supposed to see it as a criticism. 

"Is Bruce Wayne actually being good by being Batman?"

Well, that depends. "Should a billionaire spend vast amounts of money to secretly fund a personal war against crime in which they punch criminals", probably not for many, many reasons. 

Given that Bruce Wayne isn't some random billionaire, but a genius detective and master combatant, AND that he exists in a fictional world that would regularly be destroyed were it not for the existence of a genius detective/master combatant with millions of dollars worth of specialized tech at his disposal, then yes, Batman is probably a good thing.


"Is an absolute dictatorship, even a benevolent one, a good thing". Probably not, such a system is inherently unstable, reliant on the continual mercy and wisdom of the Dictator. Even if the Dictator is continually wise and merciful, the system is reliant on their continual good health. 
Even an immortal, perpetually wise and merciful dictator could be objected to philosophically speaking. There are plenty of valid arguments that, even if the Dictator always makes the objectively correct decisions, such a government CANNOT be considered "Just" due to the simple fact that the people deserve self-determination. 

That said, here we have an Immortal Dictator who, while a bit of a jerk, is seemingly fairly wise and merciful (he gives both White Chain and the other Ring of Power combatants numerous opportunities to NOT enter a deathmatch against him, which I think falls under Merciful here), and without him, the land would almost certainly be swiftly conquered by one or more of his rivals. So it's pretty hard to argue that Salami Dave's rule is not a Good Thing, since there's no real solution where the state is not reliant on him.




> If anything it's an argument that Solomon should have gotten off his ass and left his kingdom to others so he can concentrate on training to be more than a blip for the Red God. He was so busy being the benevolent dictator that he had to rely on pact with the other demiurges as a deterrence for Jagganoth, a pact that he should have realized was worthless as the six of them are hardly up to the task given that they have been play acting being kings and despots rather than understanding that the war continues and only one of them has been getting stronger.


If anything, this is the valid criticism of SD. It's that he views the Demiurges as Kings, and their domains as Nations, albeit on a cosmic scale. He's trapped by his own worldview and rules, rules which don't really apply when dealing with the Demiurges. 

All the Demiurges are Mad, and Solomon's Madness is that he believes that the others are not.

Although, admittedly, all the Demiurges are guilty of this, but SD is the "Good" one.

----------


## Rydiro

> Although, admittedly, all the Demiurges are guilty of this, but SD is the "Good" one.


Somehow, I get the vibe that Incubus is in perpetual warfare as well. He always says so. Idk why he adoptes a suicidal strategy though by siding with jaggs. Maybe he is just that spiteful.

----------


## Vahnavoi

Waiting for Salami Dave's beard to suddenly grow long and blonde now.

----------


## slayerx

> Somehow, I get the vibe that Incubus is in perpetual warfare as well. He always says so. Idk why he adopts a suicidal strategy though by siding with jaggs. Maybe he is just that spiteful.


I assume that Incubus has some kind of scheme to beat Jaggs. He is certainly spiteful to the other kings but i do not think he's suicidal. He needs jagg's to help him kill off the others, but imagine that he believse that Allison will become capable to beating Jagg himself... However Incubus also thinks he'll be able to take out Allison after. Incubus seems to specialize in the mental-scape, so while Alison could become powerful enough to take down any of the demimuges in a fight, her mind might not be so well protected. It could even be related to how he took Maya's place

----------


## lord_khaine

> If anything it's an argument that Solomon should have gotten off his ass and left his kingdom to others so he can concentrate on training to be more than a blip for the Red God. He was so busy being the benevolent dictator that he had to rely on pact with the other demiurges as a deterrence for Jagganoth, a pact that he should have realized was worthless as the six of them are hardly up to the task given that they have been play acting being kings and despots rather than understanding that the war continues and only one of them has been getting stronger.





> Kind of a logical flaw that they let jaggs build up a power imbalance for like the last thousand years.


Its equally a logical flaw to assume that they had a choice in preventing Jagganoth from building up.
Or that doing any more pushups would have helped Solomon. Its much more likely that he had reached the peak of of what was possible for him to achive.
And as we also saw. He had his hands full acting as a mediator among the other demi-urges.




> Incubus seems to specialize in the mental-scape, so while Alison could become powerful enough to take down any of the demimuges in a fight, her mind might not be so well protected. It could even be related to how he took Maya's place


I think Rydiro got it right. He is just spiteful. I dont think he actually ever beat Maya in a direct fight.
Thats why the other demi-urges dont respect him. I find it more likely Maya just quit one day. 
Incubus was then around to pick up the pieces.

----------


## Spacewolf

To be fair I'm not sure what SD was supposed to do, from the sounds of it the Demiurges where in a massive war where Jab wasn't overly powerful. Jab then gets given a tool that makes him literally invincible and powers him up from the supposedly dead leader of the angels. The Demiurges unite against him so Jab decides it's not worth the the risk they might be able to seal him and agrees to peace. Everyone tries to increase the power of their team in various ways. For SD he only sees the power of the individual so seeks the most powerful to serve under him and someone to surpass him. (Which considering how top heavy combat power is in this universe isnt a bad method.)

At least that's my understanding of the timeline from just the Comic and words under it from my memory. 

Looks like we're going to get to see SD show off his full power only for it to have not effect on the invincible Jab for effect though.

----------


## Avaris

> To be fair I'm not sure what SD was supposed to do, from the sounds of it the Demiurges where in a massive war where Jab wasn't overly powerful. Jab then gets given a tool that makes him literally invincible and powers him up from the supposedly dead leader of the angels. The Demiurges unite against him so Jab decides it's not worth the the risk they might be able to seal him and agrees to peace. Everyone tries to increase the power of their team in various ways. For SD he only sees the power of the individual so seeks the most powerful to serve under him and someone to surpass him. (Which considering how top heavy combat power is in this universe isnt a bad method.)
> 
> At least that's my understanding of the timeline from just the Comic and words under it from my memory. 
> 
> Looks like we're going to get to see SD show off his full power only for it to have not effect on the invincible Jab for effect though.


This comment has made me realise the likely plot arc/point of the final book. Apologies if this was already obvious to others!

The overall message of KSBD is of strength through genuine unity. Thats what Allisons role is: shes not a demiurge seizing all that power for herself, instead she is going to be called on to share it among her friends and allies. She has certainly been tempted down that path, but now in the final book she will meet that potential. United we stand.

By contrast, the demiurges are not united. Over the coming pages we will see them attempt to fight Jag, and fail because they each see themselves as standing alone and above all others. Divided we fall.

So the demiurges will be defeated here, some will die, others retreat. Then Allison and co will have to gather their strength, maybe aided by surviving demiurges. Then together they will defeat Jag. End story.

----------


## Thales

> Divided we fall.
> 
> So the demiurges will be defeated here, some will die, others retreat. Then Allison and co will have to gather their strength, maybe aided by surviving demiurges. Then together they will defeat Jag. End story.


The author has said that Jagganoth is a lot more interesting and complicated than just an omnicidal elephant cosplayer. Both Jagganoth and, er, Juggernaut seem to want to break a cycle of some sort, but in a manner that's really not very well-defined just yet. I suspect that you're right about there being a message of strength through unity, but the ultimate goal Allison will need to help people unite to accomplish will actually be closer to what Jagganoth is going for, just presumably accomplished through a means other than killing everyone. For all Jagganoth's power, we'll find that he's actually helplessly outclassed by the process or entity he's struggling against, and the kill-everyone plan is essentially a fallback. Allison will need to persuade him to not struggle alone at his still extraordinarily-difficult task, but instead convince him that the golden approach that doesn't involve murdering everyone is possible if he works together.

----------


## Rydiro

> The author has said that Jagganoth is a lot more interesting and complicated than just an omnicidal elephant cosplayer. Both Jagganoth and, er, Juggernaut seem to want to break a cycle of some sort, but in a manner that's really not very well-defined just yet. I suspect that you're right about there being a message of strength through unity, but the ultimate goal Allison will need to help people unite to accomplish will actually be closer to what Jagganoth is going for, just presumably accomplished through a means other than killing everyone. For all Jagganoth's power, we'll find that he's actually helplessly outclassed by the process or entity he's struggling against, and the kill-everyone plan is essentially a fallback. Allison will need to persuade him to not struggle alone at his still extraordinarily-difficult task, but instead convince him that the golden approach that doesn't involve murdering everyone is possible if he works together.


The author stated jagganoth wants to kill everyone, because he never knew love. So he genuinely thinks all existence is suffering.
So all Allison has to do is do a lot of lovin' the giant elephant guy.

----------


## lord_khaine

> To be fair I'm not sure what SD was supposed to do, from the sounds of it the Demiurges where in a massive war where Jab wasn't overly powerful. Jab then gets given a tool that makes him literally invincible and powers him up from the supposedly dead leader of the angels. The Demiurges unite against him so Jab decides it's not worth the the risk they might be able to seal him and agrees to peace. Everyone tries to increase the power of their team in various ways. For SD he only sees the power of the individual so seeks the most powerful to serve under him and someone to surpass him. (Which considering how top heavy combat power is in this universe isnt a bad method.)


You got the timeline a tiny bit mixed up. 
The 7 remaining demi-urges agreed to a peace where they divided creation equally among themselves.
And swore an blood oath to come to the aid of anyone who got attacked by one of the other, to ensure the peace would last.
Jaggernoth got his power upgrade afterwards.

And the 7 then instead began to focus their attention on conquering their share of reality. 
(or well, Jaggernoth began a mix of extermination and war preparation). 

Though i dont know where the idea of SD only seeing the power of the individual comes from. He is the one with the most well ordered empire.

----------


## Iruka

Epic throwdown cancelled.

----------


## BRC

The pattern continues of the Demiurges being, well, exactly as ruinous as they appear to be initially, just with richer internal lives than expected (Exempting iceblock and Your Favorite Worms)

What confuses me is Jaganoth's line about "Saving many lives". 

Like, from what we've heard, he's pretty omnicidal. Even if it's more from a "Life is suffering, best to kill everyone" sense, rather than "Boy do I love Killing!" 
Allison's key would make his job easier, so it makes sense he'd ask for it, but why he says it would "Save many lives" is beyond me.

Unless he intends to spare all unconquered worlds. Reset things to how they were before Zoss entered throne, no more connected multiverse, no mad demiurges, just 777,777 universes each doing their own thing. The lives that would be saved are those worlds yet unconquered, sparing them from subjugation or annihilation at the hands of the Demiurges. 
In order to do that, he first must wipe out all the other demiurges, and all their subjects, and all inhabitants of Throne.

And then, I guess, Jagganoth stands there, alone in a city of corpses, and the moment there's another Zoss, somebody else who figures out how to breach the firmament and threaten to restart the whole thing, he kills them?


I don't know.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

Next panel: *Spoiler*
Show

Solomon David sliding neatly, peacefully apart, cut in twain like so much wheat before the scythe.

This would be true if I were the GM.

----------


## Thales

While I appreciate Jagganoth trying to explain, this seems important enough (and he's invulnerable enough), that he probably ought to spend more of an effort than that. We, the readers, can spend a bunch of idle time trying decipher what exactly he's talking about, and who knows, maybe some of us will get it right, but crikey, if you're on what you believe to be the most important mission ever, the least you could do is use persuasion with half the enthusiasm you use one of those swords!

----------


## lord_khaine

> This would be true if I were the GM.


Yeah. You would be a horrible GM. Those are suposed to be impartial. Not twist events according to their hate-boner.




> While I appreciate Jagganoth trying to explain, this seems important enough (and he's invulnerable enough), that he probably ought to spend more of an effort than that. We, the readers, can spend a bunch of idle time trying decipher what exactly he's talking about, and who knows, maybe some of us will get it right, but crikey, if you're on what you believe to be the most important mission ever, the least you could do is use persuasion with half the enthusiasm you use one of those swords!


For a start he should likely have tried to do a better first impression. 
On that perhaps did not involve murdering the majority of a town.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> Yeah. You would be a horrible GM. Those are suposed to be impartial. Not twist events according to their hate-boner.


Wow. Just ... wow. Having one npc slaughter another is, I believe, allowed for a GM. Also, I have absolutely zero emotion invested in _any_ fictional character, but you seem to be really invested.

----------


## understatement

Can someone give a quick refresher on who Metatron is? Are they the ruler of the angels?

----------


## mystic1110

> Wow. Just ... wow. Having one npc slaughter another is, I believe, allowed for a GM. Also, I have absolutely zero emotion invested in _any_ fictional character, but you seem to be really invested.


I wouldn't get too hung up on it, Lord Khaine is a loyal subject of the Celestial Empire and is honor bound to defend Solomon at every opportunity. He's just doing his job.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## mystic1110

> Can someone give a quick refresher on who Metatron is? Are they the ruler of the angels?


Metatron  :Small Cool:

----------


## Thales

> For a start he should likely have tried to do a better first impression. 
> On that perhaps did not involve murdering the majority of a town.


Yup. He really isn't great at this whole "diplomacy" thing.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> I wouldn't get too hung up on it, Lord Khaine is a loyal subject of the Celestial Empire and is honor bound to defend Solomon at every opportunity. He's just doing his job.


Oh I know. And I'm not about to argue with him. Here are seven deadly sins literally embodied and personified, and some guy want's to argue one of them is just the swellest of really swell guys? No, not rising to that. 

But to be accused of having a 'hate-boner' for finding it funny if pride goeth before a fall? That, I must admit, was quite unexpected.

----------


## Aquillion

Besides, having the Big Bad kill the Big Good in order to show how real the situation has gotten is a time-honored practice.  Having Solomon die here would serve a number of purposes - it would establish the stakes, while ensuring that there's nobody to unite the Seven (meaning Allison has to step up).  When a non-main character is both strong and reasonable it is sort of a death flag in general because if they stay alive then they'll be the ones handling everything.

It would also cut to the heart of Solomon's ideology - if all that matters is who is stronger, and the empire should go to the strongest, what right does he have to stand against Jagganoth if Jagganoth is capable of killing him in one hit?  It seems that by his own law and ideology, Jagganoth is entirely justified in killing Solomon, taking his empire, and burning it to the ground; if he doesn't like that option then it seems like something in Solomon's ideology might be flawed.  The whole last book has built up this criticism of the idea of strength-as-justice; having Solomon, who was the big proponent of it, die at the hands of someone who (at the moment) seems like a complete monster would drive that home.  If Solomon believes that strength is justice, and Jagganoth is the strongest Demiurge, then what justice could possibly exist?

(For that matter, what *would* Solomon have done if Jagganoth entered the games according to the rules?  It's completely clear that Solomon can't 1v1 Jagganoth, so he would probably die in the fight if he had to do it all on his own.  Then Jagganoth would inherit his empire by his own laws, and would be free to obliterate it whenever he wants.)

Mind you I don't think Solomon is going to die here, mostly because I don't think Abaddon is going for that sort of big final boss fight anyway (it would also make no sense for Solomon to be so confident and to die instantly.)  But I wouldn't be totally shocked if it happened and wouldn't consider it bad writing - honestly Solomon has been tripping death flags a lot recently.

Also Abaddon has already done the whole "someone is played up as incredibly strong and then gets cut in half in one attack to show how strong someone else is" thing.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

Aww - the disappoint.

Anyways, I'm sure it's possible to argue that Jagganoth is the 'big good'. He alone has read the writing on the wall, he alone has the mental fortitude to accept what it means, and he alone is willing to do it. He will sacrifice the world to see it born again better - for the present one is irredeemably mired in misery because of past mistakes and present corruption. 

Jagganoth has come to save us all. 

I have no idea whether any of that is true - and it doesn't matter. Jag and Sal are both plot devices. Neither is going to win, because Ally is. This is a known factor, and always has been.

----------


## Spacewolf

I do think Solomon is going to die here but there's abit of backstabbing and showing off to do before that happens by the various other teams. I'm having trouble guessing exactly whats going to happen because this doesn't feel like it should be the last book when there's so much left. 
As for Jag seeing the writing, he does have the advantage of knowing there is a puppetmaster when he is looking for the strings. I'm not sure anyone else outside the angels has been made aware Metatron lives.

----------


## Ibrinar

Does anyone else not get rss updates for this anymore?

----------


## Narkis

> Does anyone else not get rss updates for this anymore?


RSS worked for the latest comic for me.

----------


## Eldan

It really does seem to be moving towards the climax. Which is kind of a shame? I feel like we barely got to see most of this world. I'd really would have wanted a chapter or two exploring the worlds of each demiurge from the ground perspective, but I guess this is not that kind of story.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Oh I know. And I'm not about to argue with him. Here are seven deadly sins literally embodied and personified, and some guy want's to argue one of them is just the swellest of really swell guys? No, not rising to that.
> But to be accused of having a 'hate-boner' for finding it funny if pride goeth before a fall? That, I must admit, was quite unexpected.


Noone has accused SD of being swell. Though he does score favorably towards at least ½ the rulers of our world.
And the number of times people have been trying to twist events to make him a baby-eating monster is honestly grating.




> (For that matter, what *would* Solomon have done if Jagganoth entered the games according to the rules? It's completely clear that Solomon can't 1v1 Jagganoth, so he would probably die in the fight if he had to do it all on his own. Then Jagganoth would inherit his empire by his own laws, and would be free to obliterate it whenever he wants.)


I suspect Jagganoth is not allowed to visit SD's Empire.
I also suspect the entry documents they were forced to fill had a line with.
*Are you a disguised demi-urge?*
Yes [ ] No [ ]




> It would also cut to the heart of Solomon's ideology - if all that matters is who is stronger, and the empire should go to the strongest, what right does he have to stand against Jagganoth if Jagganoth is capable of killing him in one hit? It seems that by his own law and ideology, Jagganoth is entirely justified in killing Solomon, taking his empire, and burning it to the ground; if he doesn't like that option then it seems like something in Solomon's ideology might be flawed. The whole last book has built up this criticism of the idea of strength-as-justice; having Solomon, who was the big proponent of it, die at the hands of someone who (at the moment) seems like a complete monster would drive that home. If Solomon believes that strength is justice, and Jagganoth is the strongest Demiurge, then what justice could possibly exist?


Hmm.. i think you are misunderstanding Solomon's ideology. And a few key points about him.
The empire isnt build around strenght. Its build around Law. But as Solomon correctly has pointed out. Conviction does not mean anything if you cant back it with strenght.
It hasnt ever been stated the empire should go to the strongest. Just someone who was strong enough to hopefully protect it.
Case in point. You just needed to draw -1- drop of blood to win. While being allowed to lose as many drops of blood as you can handle.




> It really does seem to be moving towards the climax. Which is kind of a shame? I feel like we barely got to see most of this world. I'd really would have wanted a chapter or two exploring the worlds of each demiurge from the ground perspective, but I guess this is not that kind of story.


I would have loved 1/2 chapters for each demi-urge. But i guess that would have extended things for at least 4-5 years?

----------


## Eldan

> I would have loved 1/2 chapters for each demi-urge. But i guess that would have extended things for at least 4-5 years?


Yeah. Which I would have loved. But this comic seems pretty firmly down on the side of mainly having big chapter ending fights and a bit of build up every time, over a lot of worldbuilding.

----------


## Kaptin Keen

> Noone has accused SD of being swell. Though he does score favorably towards at least ½ the rulers of our world.
> And the number of times people have been trying to twist events to make him a baby-eating monster is honestly grating.


As I plainly stated: We are not going to discuss this. 

However, when replying to anything I say, kindly keep any potential boners, hateful or otherwise, out of your reply.

----------


## Rydiro

I feel like the current fight pages dont tell us much about the characters in them. Maybe its just the contrast with the last book where every fight scene told us/portrayed something about allison/white chain/solomon.

----------


## Rakaydos

> I feel like the current fight pages dont tell us much about the characters in them. Maybe its just the contrast with the last book where every fight scene told us/portrayed something about allison/white chain/solomon.


I mean, it's mostly "Demiurges cant stop getting in each other's way" so far.

----------


## tyckspoon

> I feel like the current fight pages dont tell us much about the characters in them. Maybe its just the contrast with the last book where every fight scene told us/portrayed something about allison/white chain/solomon.


Right now, I think it's trying to show the weaker Demiurges coming to a realization of "Oh carp, THIS is what we promised to stop? We did not take this seriously enough at all." (Jadis, of course, knew, but didn't see any point in trying to fight the inevitability of it all.) Probably soon to follow with Mottom getting killed or NOPE!-ing out, possibly after getting smacked around some. The character-development-by-way-of-combat bit, if it's going to happen with this section, will probably be after the less-relevant Demiurges have been defeated or removed themselves from the area.

----------


## Eldan

I hope we get back to something happening soon.

----------


## lord_khaine

So. Yeah. You were right.
We do indeed have another case of one demi-urge getting in the way of another, and spoiling his plans  :Small Tongue:

----------


## sihnfahl

> Right now, I think it's trying to show the weaker Demiurges coming to a realization of "Oh carp, THIS is what we promised to stop? We did not take this seriously enough at all."


I think they relied on Solomon being an honorable man as well as him being so strong.  They knew he wouldn't break the pact, even though he was strong enough to basically steamroll any one of them, save Jaggy.

They went along with it, IMO, because it made their domains 'secure' for their own purposes.  they didn't have to watch their 'borders' because their borders were 'secure'.  And when you rule over bugs, what need have you to prepare to fight?

----------


## Rydiro

> They went along with it, IMO, because it made their domains 'secure' for their own purposes.  they didn't have to watch their 'borders' because their borders were 'secure'.  And when you rule over bugs, what need have you to prepare to fight?


Depends, if those bugs are Gog-Agog, she can bug you into playing with her when she feels left out.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Depends, if those bugs are Gog-Agog, she can bug you into playing with her when she feels left out.


Not many people would be agog over Gog-Agog.  Whose name is a palindrome.

----------


## Rydiro

I really don't get all the Zaid-hate in the comments. I mean yes, he is a damsel in distress with next to no characterisation yet.
But isn't that just a commentary on the trope of damsels, genderflipped?
People are just hating on the damsel in distress. Which i think is kinda mean.

----------


## Dragonus45

Well, a lot of people tend to take the most negative possible interpretation of his opening scene which is an attitude that fits a big part of this comics fanbase. Personally I have enough faith in the author to think they will find time to flesh him out into an actual character before everything is done.

----------


## Rydiro

> Well, a lot of people tend to take the most negative possible interpretation of his opening scene which is an attitude that fits a big part of this comics fanbase.


Ah yes and they conveniently forget about Allison using Zaid to cross off her "losing virginity" chheckbox.

----------


## Spacewolf

I'm kind of split on getting to see the big fight the series has been working to and finding it boring because despite all the flash as I have no idea if any of these hits are actually causing any damage. Especially when the pace seems slower than it should, we all know there's going to be a bunch of betrayals getting thrown in here so lets get to them.

----------


## Eldan

I just never really cared about all the big fights. I'm here for the characters and the worldbuilding, and this has barely any of either. I might just come back in half a year and leaf through this chapter. 

Honestly, if the comic ends here, I'll be hugely disappointed. So much interesting stuff open, and it just ends with "And they all fighted. The end."

----------


## Rydiro

> I'm kind of split on getting to see the big fight the series has been working to and finding it boring because despite all the flash as I have no idea if any of these hits are actually causing any damage. Especially when the pace seems slower than it should, we all know there's going to be a bunch of betrayals getting thrown in here so lets get to them.


Isn't the only one who is gonna be betrayed Jagganoth?
Incubus is secretly backing Allison until Jagganoth is out of the way.

----------


## Dragonus45

> I just never really cared about all the big fights. I'm here for the characters and the worldbuilding, and this has barely any of either. I might just come back in half a year and leaf through this chapter. 
> 
> Honestly, if the comic ends here, I'll be hugely disappointed. So much interesting stuff open, and it just ends with "And they all fighted. The end."



Good for you I guess? I'm loving the big fights. Also there is zero chance whatsoever that this comic ends on this big fight scene.

----------


## Eldan

The author said it's almost over, though. 
And I mean, I like the big crowd scene fights. Those are always amazing to look at. But this has just been weeks of I'm charging my Energy Attack à la Dragonball Z and I'm done with that.

----------


## InvisibleBison

The problem with the current fight, as I see it, is that there's no real stakes. On the one hand, Allison isn't powerful enough to meaningfully participate, so she's just been reduced to an observer. On the other hand, Jagganoth is invincible, so we know he's not going to be defeated here. So what's at risk? The survival of the other demiurges? Why would we care about them? They're all huge jerks. There's no reason for us to be invested in the outcome of this fight, so it's become somewhat tedious.

----------


## wingnutx

> The author said it's almost over, though. 
> 
> But this has just been weeks of I'm charging my Energy Attack à la Dragonball Z and I'm done with that.


It's definitely easier to leave for a bit and so you can read it all at once.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Good for you I guess? I'm loving the big fights. Also there is zero chance whatsoever that this comic ends on this big fight scene.


Yeah. This fight has just about been one awesome moment following another. 
David got a couple exceptional moments. Like when he erupts from the ground. Or goes "dam be it all" and jump into Jaggernoths world blender.
We get to see Incubus be serious at last. We get Mottom finally finding a bit of spine. 
And we get Jaggernoth being quite boss about it all. 

In one way or another they are all monsters. And horribly flawed. But i still think them quite interesting.




> So what's at risk?


And no. Whats at risk here is all of creation. If you missed it. Then Jaggernoth is on a mission to end pain by destroying everything.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> And no. Whats at risk here is all of creation. If you missed it. Then Jaggernoth is on a mission to end pain by destroying everything.


I'm not actually sure that that's Jagganoth's goal, going from what he said before this fight started. But even if he is trying to destroy creation, this fight isn't going to decide whether or not he succeeds, because Allison is going to be instrumental in that decision and she isn't able to participate in this fight. So again, what is actually the stakes of this conflict? As far as I can tell, nothing.

----------


## Thales

"Is this it? Is this the climactic scene everything's been building toward or not? Are we at the final battle, right here in this canyon arena?"
"I don't... _think_ so? Feels kinda sudden. And there are still a lot of loose ends, right? Way too many for a post-credits scene, even a really indulgent one."

The Order could have stood and fought Xykon, but we the readers knew that it was way too early in this last book of Order of the Stick for the ultimate fate of Xykon and Redcloak to be wrapped up. (And because Elan has a direct line to the narrative, that knowledge could reach the characters.) No matter what the in-universe stakes are, we knew the story wasn't going to end with a showdown in the canyon. At most, Xkyon would be sent back to his phylactery, or for a really extreme case, the Order would get killed and find that the afterlife was right where they needed to be. But the story wouldn't end; Team Evil wouldn't be resolved there.

It's much the same here, with this big showdown between the demiurges. There's certainly going to be _some_ takeaway from this. Maybe Solomon David will get killed? Maybe Jagganoth will say something important to Allison? But despite the phenomenal in-universe stakes, we the readers know that it's too early for things to really get resolved, so all this sound and fury is just filling pages  spectacularly  until we get back to the meat of the story.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I'm not actually sure that that's Jagganoth's goal, going from what he said before this fight started. But even if he is trying to destroy creation, this fight isn't going to decide whether or not he succeeds, because Allison is going to be instrumental in that decision and she isn't able to participate in this fight. So again, what is actually the stakes of this conflict? As far as I can tell, nothing.


No, Jaggernoth makes it pretty clear that the death he brings is a blessing. So just for a start, the stake of this conflict is an entire world. 
That might be nothing to you. Im quite certain its not nothing to the people living on it. Or the countess people already killed on arrival.

And if thats not enough, Allison pretty clearly is out of her depth, so as such her fate is also at stake.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> No, Jaggernoth makes it pretty clear that the death he brings is a blessing. So just for a start, the stake of this conflict is an entire world. 
> That might be nothing to you. Im quite certain its not nothing to the people living on it. Or the countess people already killed on arrival.


That's the stakes for the comic as a whole, yes. But it's not the stakes for the currently ongoing fight, because this is not the grand finale of the story.




> And if thats not enough, Allison pretty clearly is out of her depth, so as such her fate is also at stake.


A I see it, it is precisely because Allison is out of her depth her fate is not at stake. She cannot meaningfully participate in this fight. If any of the belligerents were to seriously attack her, she would just die. So she's not going to be attacked.

----------


## mystic1110

Guys - you are arguing about different things. This is essentially an Elan/Roy argument. Story Structure vs In-Character Observations.

----------


## Rydiro

I guess jagganoth wants to kill metatron to kill fate/the wheel.
He sees people as having no real existence (since they are all fated to act a certain way).
The people who die were always meant to die, its not his doing as long as fate exists.
For him, the only meaningful life begins when metatron dies.

----------


## wingnutx

Now we see the violence inherent in the system!

SD is showing off.

----------


## Thales

Okay, this seems kind of stupid on Solomon David's part, assuming Jagganoth no-sells it due to his invulnerability (which SD knows about!). It might be more productive to use your impossible superspeed and destructive power not against the one target capable of resisting it, but against the rest of his various weapons. To be sure, an unarmed Jagganoth is still plenty dangerous as a giant indestructible wizard, but most of his techniques so far are channeled through his weapons. Ordinarily, I'd suggest chucking him into space, but teleportation seems to be one of the basic functions of the Keys, so that's less productive than it would be against other fictional juggernauts.

----------


## sihnfahl

> It might be more productive to use your impossible superspeed and destructive power not against the one target capable of resisting it, but against the rest of his various weapons.


I think that's what he's doing.  His multiple clones are attacking from all directions, breaking armor and presumably weapons in the doing.

Course, that also assume he doesn't summon more...

And Allison is learning what several hundred - thousand? - years of experience and practice really means.

She's only dipped her toes.

----------


## wingnutx

Looks like he's busting up his armor. 

So you'll have an angry, naked Jagganoth.

----------


## sihnfahl

> So you'll have an angry, naked Jagganoth.


The first, I think, is superfluous.  He's always angry.

On the downside, he doesn't have purple shorts.  Just a greyish thong.

----------


## Spacewolf

Guess we're going to get a good luck at the nails next time.

----------


## tyckspoon

> The first, I think, is superfluous.  He's always angry.
> 
> On the downside, he doesn't have purple shorts.  Just a greyish thong.


What does a dead man have to be angry about? He's just.. disappointed.  :Small Tongue: 

More seriously Jagganoth seems to be convinced that he is privy to some secret truth about the universe and knows the correct way forward because of it. I don't think he's angry at the other demiurges so much as he wishes they would see his point.. but since they won't, they regrettably have to be removed. (Or not regrettably, because they're already dead, really, so it doesn't matter all that much when their bodies catch up to that fact.)

----------


## wingnutx

Gog-Agog flying made me laugh. Wheeeee!

----------


## Iruka

*Spoiler: new comic*
Show

Turns out it was a Steven Universe fanfic all along.

----------


## sihnfahl

Wow, when the prophecy that the Heir would be flanked by a black flame and a white flame, I could never expect it being so ... literal.

----------


## Eldan

I sort of suspected something like this might happen when they first did the fusion dance.

----------


## Thales

I very much like the rollover text:



> Man Catastrophically Owns Himself by Replacing Complicated Character Design with Even More Complicated Character Design

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah the rollover text was bloody hilarious.

All the same.
That final design. Thats just divine. Fully worth the wait.

----------


## -D-

> I very much like the rollover text:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Man Catastrophically Owns Himself by Replacing Complicated Character Design with Even More Complicated Character Design


If there was ". Repeateadely" at the end, it would perfectly describe Goblins.

But yeah, kinda expected this to happen. Fusion goes brrr.

----------


## BRC

I don't fully get it

Allicio was Allison putting on Cio's mask. 

This time they just kind of....rainbowed? But, we also still didn't get much of an Explanation for White Chain's new Meatself, so, like who knows. It's not gonna stop me from thinking this is cool.

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

Yeah, I think this was done entirely poorly compared to the Allicio fusion. White Chain's new form is an unknown, but the whole thing here is resolved in basically two panels. Very sudden new fusion, with no proper explanation in sight. Just feels like ass-pulling a new power as the plot demands.

The comments on the page seem to agree, with various predictions along the lines of "is she now going to start absorbing all the other characters and gaining their powers?".

I hereby name this new form, Kirby. :P

----------


## Eldan

Well, if they fully want to unite Ysun's flame, I'd argue they also need at least one Servant, so all four aspects are represented.

----------


## -D-

> Very sudden new fusion, with no proper explanation in sight. Just feels like ass-pulling a new power as the plot demands.


Basically, it's like DBZ with a mostly female cast. Once you realize that. It's easy to understand. 

OMG achieving Super Sayian is a feat, not few can reach. It's the pinnacle of one's mental fortitude it destroys the user's Ego and could possibly destroy the character we know and love. Only a few Saiyans in the entire history of their race can do it. 

Goku does it once when his childhood friend is killed. Ever since that time, Goku can do it easier than he can pop a fart. Oh, and everyone with traces of Sayian blood can do it. It's easy now.

----


Like Author mentioned Alison can be measured it Gokus. And they literally have a Fusion technique.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Yeah, I think this was done entirely poorly compared to the Allicio fusion. White Chain's new form is an unknown, but the whole thing here is resolved in basically two panels. Very sudden new fusion, with no proper explanation in sight. Just feels like ass-pulling a new power as the plot demands.


Ass pull my ass  :Small Tongue: 
We were told rather early that the Heir would be flanked by a black and a white flame.
So the moment we saw the first human/devil fusion happen, then it was fairly obvious that we could get a human/angel or a final human/devil/angel fusion.

----------


## slayerx

> Ass pull my ass 
> We were told rather early that the Heir would be flanked by a black and a white flame.
> So the moment we saw the first human/devil fusion happen, then it was fairly obvious that we could get a human/angel or a final human/devil/angel fusion.


That doesn't explain HOW they did it. Allicio was the result of allison wearing cio's mask; it was basically a form of possession. A fusion that takes into account that cio's body isn't exactly physical. There is no such explanation for White chain who DOES have a physical body now

The fusion actually would have made more sense before White chain got her new body. Before White chain was actually a pure white flame that was inhabiting a stone statue. In the case of a fusion you could have claimed that white chain managed to inhabit allision's body the same way she inhabits her stone body.... You could try and make that claim now, but it gets really muddled by White chain's new physical body which complicates things. White chain's new body isn't quite human and does have maintain her angelic power, but that does not mean it's malleable and can shift forms or anything like that

----------


## Rydiro

Allison put on her Mantle of Gods and lied to the universe that it just works.
"Just do it", is how magic works in KSBD.
Remember when White Chain punched herself a new body? All she had to do was punch with much seriousness.
Insert Serious Series pun(ch) here.

----------


## Shogo

I'm just curious about the hooves.

All three of the people in this fusion have feet. When Alison and Cio fused they still had feet. But then you add in White Chain and now there's suddenly hooves.

----------


## -D-

> I'm just curious about the hooves.
> 
> All three of the people in this fusion have feet. When Alison and Cio fused they still had feet. But then you add in White Chain and now there's suddenly hooves.


Rule of cool.

----------


## wingnutx

Incubus, you jerk.

----------


## Thales

I really don't buy this as the end of the fight. Maybe Jagganoth gets taken out of commission here? But still, that feels pretty weirdly placed narratively. And how does this tie into Incubus working with Jagganoth? Or his thing with Meti? Is Gog Agog going to do anything? I feel like at least the first of those threads will not be resolved with Jagganoth out of the picture.

----------


## Rydiro

> Is Gog Agog going to do anything?


I guess this is not how Gog fights. When you are up against Gog, you'll find worms in your supply lines, in your population and finally inside yourself. She isn't made for direct duels. I guess she is already invading all of jaggs worlds at once during this fight.

----------


## Dragonus45

> I guess this is not how Gog fights. When you are up against Gog, you'll find worms in your supply lines, in your population and finally inside yourself. She isn't made for direct duels. I guess she is already invading all of jaggs worlds at once during this fight.


I doubt that, The Worm that Trolls would not be at the big table if it couldn't manage to throw a good punch when needed.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Maybe Jagganoth gets taken out of commission here? But still, that feels pretty weirdly placed narratively.


How so?  This is presumably Jadis' prophecy - we saw that back here.




> And how does this tie into Incubus working with Jagganoth?


Inky doesn't like the system, and Jaggy was working to destroy it.  Course, when Inky realized that meant that EVERYTHING would be destroyed, he worked to find a way to neutralize Jaggy once Jaggy upended the table.  Problem is, Jaggy's not upset the table yet (stopping Metatron), and is going for a teamkill.




> Is Gog Agog going to do anything?


Not really anything overt.  Gog is just going to stand there agog, since they're not a straight-up fighter like the others are.  Gog works in the shadows, behind the scenes, slowly worming their way in.




> I doubt that, The Worm that Trolls would not be at the big table if it couldn't manage to throw a good punch when needed.


My take is that Gog's nature means that the other Demis just wear themselves out trying to get rid of it.  It's like kudzu.  Hack at the leaves and vines, and within a few days, all that growth you cut back ... is back.  And since it has seeds all over the place... no getting rid of it.

----------


## Thales

> How so? This is presumably Jadis' prophecy - we saw that back here.


I'm not convinced of that. The author has talked about how he finds Jagganoth quite interesting and is looking forward to exploring his motivation. Jagganoth getting annihilated here wouldn't fit with that. I also feel like the "beast" will be something a little less obvious. If nothing else, it's Gog-Agog that holds the word Beast, not Jagganoth. Maybe it will be Metatron, like Jagganoth is also ultimately targeting?

----------


## lord_khaine

> How so? This is presumably Jadis' prophecy - we saw that back here.


Im quite certain that the 7-headed beast the propecy speaks off is the 7 demi-urges.




> I doubt that, The Worm that Trolls would not be at the big table if it couldn't manage to throw a good punch when needed.





> My take is that Gog's nature means that the other Demis just wear themselves out trying to get rid of it. It's like kudzu. Hack at the leaves and vines, and within a few days, all that growth you cut back ... is back. And since it has seeds all over the place... no getting rid of it.


Yeah. This seems quite possible. That since Gog is a hive-being. Then its basically impossible to get rid off. Since you need to murder every last worm across all of creation.
So easier to deal with it though diplomacy.

----------


## wingnutx

> Im quite certain that the 7-headed beast the propecy speaks off is the 7 demi-urges.


That's my take on it.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Im quite certain that the 7-headed beast the propecy speaks off is the 7 demi-urges.


Of which Jagganoth is one, and presumably the first that would be dealt with.

Edit: Going back to the page, I see Jaggy is on Allison's side and is facing against the other demiurges.

Hinting that his actions are aiding her in taking down the Seven-Headed Beast - which is not necessarily the demiurges themselves, but maybe the regime they have set up?

----------


## lord_khaine

> Edit: Going back to the page, I see Jaggy is on Allison's side and is facing against the other demiurges.


I cant see anything like that.
I see Jaggy as 1 among 7 demiurges. Your really reading to much into there being limited space to place his big red ass.

----------


## sihnfahl

> I cant see anything like that.
> I see Jaggy as 1 among 7 demiurges. Your really reading to much into there being limited space to place his big red ass.


Count the other side.  Five above, seven below.
Jagganoth, Meti, Allison, Cio, White Chain.


Mammon
Mottom
Incubus
Jadis
Solomon David
Gog-Agog
Zoss

----------


## Gez

> Count the other side.  Five above, seven below.
> Jagganoth, Meti, Allison, Cio, White Chain.
> 
> 
> Mammon
> Mottom
> Incubus
> Jadis
> Solomon David
> ...



It's a symmetrical composition. In the center, you have a triangle, formed of Zoss, upon which rests Allison (she's literally standing on the halo of the former King, as his heir) flanked by Cio and Chain.

The triangle splits apart two groups of four demiurges, Jag+Jadis-Solomon-Mottom on the left, Meti+Mammon-Incubus-Gog on the right.

If you look at the posture of the figures, all eight demiurges appear to be recoiling from Allison's power triangle -- definitely including Jagganoth, just look at him! Meti's posture is more ambiguous, and Jadis is just being her paperweight self.

----------


## Rydiro

Jagganoth is looking for a way to kill some time.

----------


## wingnutx

Gog looks seriously pissed on the second page of the prophecy. 

https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/ksbd-4-79/

Hadn't noticed that before.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Gog looks seriously pissed on the second page of the prophecy. 
> 
> https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/ksbd-4-79/
> 
> Hadn't noticed that before.


That could be her still being angry about Mottom blowing up her face, not anything relating to the prophecy.

----------


## wingnutx

> That could be her still being angry about Mottom blowing up her face, not anything relating to the prophecy.


Oh yeah, you are correct.

----------


## Aquillion

Remember, Abaddon has implied that any part of the prophecy not _directly_ spoken by Jadis herself is unreliable.  She is infallible; her translators are not.

----------


## Eldan

Okay, this I like. This is interesting.

----------


## Rydiro

> Okay, this I like. This is interesting.


Does anyone have hints when Zoss does rewind time and how far back? If he can do that "cause royalty", is Meti affected? She is also royalty.

----------


## Gez

> Does anyone have hints when Zoss does rewind time and how far back?


As Jag said, it's at the point where the heir takes the throne of Heaven, and presumably to the point where he chooses another heir.

I figure the trick to breaking the cycle is to not take the throne. Just leave it empty.

----------


## Spacewolf

We're still not getting the full story here otherwise why would the thorn knights have killed Zoss? Was he already trying to break the wheel? 
Also if Jag always wins then time gets reset does that mean this is far as the cycle has ever gone? Since presumably if Zoss chosen fails then that's when he resets. 
Yea feels like something is still missing.

----------


## BRC

From the sounds of things, I wouldn't be surprised if the specific entities/arrangement is different each time.


The pattern seems to be

Zoss arises

The War happens, something akin to the Demiurges splits the universe between them

Zoss chooses an heir

The Heir defeats the Demiurges and claims the throne. 

SOMETHING happens, everything falls apart, Jagganoth is left to "Clean up", defeating the Heir before Zoss restarts the cycle.

This time, Jagganoth is one of the Demiurges, and remembers enough to try to intervene earlier in the cycle. Normally, he doesn't arrive until after the Heir has defeated the Demiurges and claimed the throne, presumably after the "Something" happens and it all falls apart. 

Allison is still at the "Rally allies and Sword" Stage, but Jagganoth is intervening, hoping to claim her key and use it to destroy Metatron. 


It seems that whatever Zoss and Metatron are trying to do keeps failing after the Heir ascends the throne. Possibly because, as Zoss says, the person who conquers the wheel cannot break it. The Heir ascends, a new golden age begins, only to fall apart just as quickly, and Jagganoth wipes it out so Zoss can turn back time and try again.

It should be noted that  Jagganoth describes The Heir as "A boy with little sense and an excess of Courage". A classic hero-type. 

It's possible that just as Jagganoth remembers the previous cycles enough to try to intervene early, Zoss also remembers enough, and chose a different flavor of Heir: Allison. "Little sense and an excess of Courage" can also describe Allison, at least eventually. Initially she was quite scared, and out of her depths, but we don't know the standard of Heir that had been  previously chosen. It's possible they were all sword-swinging hero types jumping at the call to adventure, rather than a barista from an unconquered world.

----------


## sihnfahl

> The Heir ascends, a new golden age begins, only to fall apart just as quickly, and Jagganoth wipes it out so Zoss can turn back time and try again.


Or it doesn't fall apart - Zoss isn't happy with the outcome, so he just rolls things back to try again.





> It should be noted that  Jagganoth describes The Heir as "A boy with little sense and an excess of Courage". A classic hero-type.


Also, easily manipulated.  Point them at a goal with the right words to prod them along the way.




> It's possible they were all sword-swinging hero types jumping at the call to adventure, rather than a barista from an unconquered world.


Or just someone who can be molded.

His initial choice was probably going to be Zaid until he got interrupted.  So, in a rush, he went with Allison.

----------


## Thales

Looks like we're finally going to get to see a Ki Rata 10-point strike!

----------


## Rydiro

Aaah, no answers nor character development. Just more questions and combat scenes.

----------


## Thales

I feel like this combat scene will be short? I hope so, anyhow. SD does a ten-point strike, which is cataclysmically powerful, but Jagganoth no-sells it, and maybe kills SD? Gog-Agog, being largely not there, applauds cheerily and doesn't mind getting squashed, then we're back to discussion between Jagganoth and Allison (and fused friends). Presumably something happens with the other demiurges, dunno what.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

It's not pertinent to the current scene, but when I reread the comic after it's finished I'm going to count how many fights are resolved by one combatant revealing that they know a badass ancient martial arts style, different from all the previous badass ancient martial arts styles. I think it happened twice in Solomon's tournament alone.

----------


## Eldan

Don't forget how often someone in mid-battle pulls a "This shouldn't be possible, no one has ever tried this and survived, but she did, with the key of kings and the power of friendship!"

I.e. devil-human fusion, binding a black devil with no preparation, achieving a new kind of triple fusion, etc.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> Don't forget how often someone in mid-battle pulls a "This shouldn't be possible, no one has ever tried this and survived, but she did, with the key of kings and the power of friendship!"
> 
> I.e. devil-human fusion, binding a black devil with no preparation, achieving a new kind of triple fusion, etc.


Well, if I counted every time a new _technique_ showed up mid-battle, it would be almost every time. But that's typical of _shonen_ comics, which this one kinda is, despite not having many boys in sight.

But having so many entire martial arts _styles_... that's a K6BD thing. The first time I read the comic, I tried to keep track of every martial arts style/school/tradition. The second time I read it, I realized that there were more than a dozen, and gave up even trying. It reminds me of Naruto's bloodline techniques: they're incredibly rare, closely guarded powers... and most of the named characters have one.

Um... I like the comic, I really do. But I'm one of those unfortunate people who finds it easier to criticize than to praise.  :Small Annoyed:

----------


## halfeye

> But I'm one of those unfortunate people who finds it easier to criticize than to praise.


I tend to praise with faint dams too.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> I tend to praise with faint dams too.


Heh, I guess that is a thing, isn't it? "Here's a work I find engrossing, but that very attachment makes its flaws even more aggravating, so I'ma talk about them instead."

----------


## lord_khaine

> It's not pertinent to the current scene, but when I reread the comic after it's finished I'm going to count how many fights are resolved by one combatant revealing that they know a badass ancient martial arts style, different from all the previous badass ancient martial arts styles. I think it happened twice in Solomon's tournament alone.


So far i believe that count to be 0. The only Ancient Martial art style we have been told off thats truely more badass than any other is Ki Rata. 
And the existance of that were announced well ahead.




> But having so many entire martial arts styles... that's a K6BD thing. The first time I read the comic, I tried to keep track of every martial arts style/school/tradition. The second time I read it, I realized that there were more than a dozen, and gave up even trying. It reminds me of Naruto's bloodline techniques: they're incredibly rare, closely guarded powers... and most of the named characters have one.


No thats not a K6BD thing. Its a real world thing. We have not yet gotten even close to the number of real world martial art styles there are. 
And this is a magical setting with contestants from MULTIPLE worlds. There should be orders of magnitude more martial arts in existance here.




> I.e. devil-human fusion, binding a black devil with no preparation, achieving a new kind of triple fusion, etc.


Devil-human fusion should be possible, it had been done before, and people had survived it.
We dont know enough about devil binding to say how exceptional the binding of Princess is when you have a Key of Kings.
And yes the triple fusion was a complete new thing.

----------


## Avaris

> Devil-human fusion should be possible, it had been done before, and people had survived it.
> We dont know enough about devil binding to say how exceptional the binding of Princess is when you have a Key of Kings.
> And yes the triple fusion was a complete new thing.


Also, I feel a big part of the theme of the comic is the protagonist doing things no one has done before. Its even said in one of the recent strips: youve never met me before.

One of the things I love about K6BD is how over the top it is. Its a universe that thrives on powerful people being bested by even more powerful people. The main antagonists and the protagonist are fairly literally gods, with many below them nearing similar levels, and it really leans into that!

----------


## Spacewolf

Yea most of the stuff that gets pulled out makes sense because we know that person has been in training since the last time we saw them or that we never saw their full measure previously. Some of the more recent ones have kind annoying though. For example White Chains transformation is the cumulation of her entire story, we have no idea what happened, it seems to be completely new and I kind of like that even then she still utterly failed even if it does feel like something that should happen in the penultimate arc rather than the final. Then we have Alison, Cio and Chains merging which feels like it comes from a completely different series, goes against what we where told about the closest comparable powerup (which just happened) and doesn't really makes sense in a power standpoint as well. Three insects standing ontop of each other don't make a comparable warrior to a dragon.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Three insects standing ontop of each other don't make a comparable warrior to a dragon.


Well then its a good thing we dont have any insects here?
We were from the start shown that the devil fusion were the kind where the end result were stronger than the sum of its parts. 
So its honestly not to big of a surprise that a fusion involving a white and a black soul would have a transcendent result.

----------


## Spacewolf

> Well then its a good thing we dont have any insects here?
> We were from the start shown that the devil fusion were the kind where the end result were stronger than the sum of its parts. 
> So its honestly not to big of a surprise that a fusion involving a white and a black soul would have a transcendent result.


We know Cio+Alison is weaker than chain even with help. We know that chain is weaker than solomon who isn't trying yet the fusion of all three seems to be more powerful than the sum would indicate was my point. In addition to taking away from the intrigue of Chains transformation.

----------


## Avaris

> We know Cio+Alison is weaker than chain even with help. We know that chain is weaker than solomon who isn't trying yet the fusion of all three seems to be more powerful than the sum would indicate was my point. In addition to taking away from the intrigue of Chains transformation.


The reason Cio + Alison is weaker is inexperience: Alison is extremely strong, but unfocussed, a raw tool. Adding White Chain into the mix adds the experience and discipline needed to truly harness the Key and achieve Alisons true potential. 

That said, this is the start of the story arc. Theyll fail here. This entire sequence was originally planned for the end of the previous book ai believe, to set up the final volume. Theres a fair way to go yet, which will undoubtedly include learning about White Chains new form for example. Theyve just not had a sufficient break yet!

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> So far i believe that count to be 0. The only Ancient Martial art style we have been told off thats truely more badass than any other is Ki Rata. 
> And the existance of that were announced well ahead.


The hell? During Solomon's tournament _both_ angelic protagonists revealed hitherto unknown badass ancient martial arts styles. Normally I'd go look up the names, but it was less than one book ago!

And if you say I would have known about them if I had been reading the prose below the comic, I will be a bit cross.  :Small Annoyed: 

For that matter, in the _second fight_ in the comic, White Chain revealed a hitherto unknown badass ancient martial arts style. Granted, that one's a freebie, or a technicality, since it was so early in the comic. Nonetheless, 1>0.

Sorry for focusing on such a small part of your response, but I can't get past the first paragraph.

----------


## Eldan

There is a difference of someone just saying what martial art style they use and someone pulling a super strong martial art style out of nowhere, though. People saying what style they are using is just genre convention, that doesn't make them stronger than others. 

I mean, if I go to an MMA tournament and say "I am using Wing Chun", that's an entirely normal thing.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZDAYg196x8




> There is a difference of someone just saying what martial art style they use and someone pulling a super strong martial art style out of nowhere, though. People saying what style they are using is just genre convention, that doesn't make them stronger than others.


Okay, I see where the confusion comes from. I said *different from*, not *better than*.

----------


## Ibrinar

Better than was implied by saying the fights were resolved by the reveal of an martial art.

----------


## halfeye

> Better than was implied by saying the fights were resolved by the reveal of an martial art.


I'm not sure that necessarily holds. Rock-paper-scissors is defined by the fact that beating one does not imply beating the other.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> Better than was implied by saying the fights were resolved by the reveal of an martial art.


Ah, I apologize, I was using "resolution" in the literary sense. That is, a "resolution" is the literary device that brings a portion of a story to a close. I often forget that others don't have as much experience with the humanities as I do.

----------


## Rydiro

> I tend to praise with faint dams too.


Now I imagine you yelling "BE PRAISED!" and throwing tiny Lego dams at someone like candy.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I'm not sure that necessarily holds. Rock-paper-scissors is defined by the fact that beating one does not imply beating the other.


Yeah. But we have not been given the implication that there is any Rock-Paper-Scissor. 
Just Ki-Rata > Not-Ki-Rata. 




> Ah, I apologize, I was using "resolution" in the literary sense. That is, a "resolution" is the literary device that brings a portion of a story to a close. I often forget that others don't have as much experience with the humanities as I do.


Im honestly not certain reveal of ancient martial arts are literary devices here either. More flavoring. 
Since you can as such reveal all references to the martial art styles, and the story would still be coherent. 
It would be a more bland. A bit like a DBZ fight. But still coherent.

----------


## halfeye

> Now I imagine you yelling "BE PRAISED!" and throwing tiny Lego dams at someone like candy.


Weirs are not swearwords.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Weirs are not swearwords.


Any word can be a swearword with the proper enunciation.

----------


## halfeye

> Any word can be a swearword with the proper enunciation.


I completely agree ("People" by John Wayne in "the Green Berets" was a classic of the genre), but some get picked up by software, and others don't.

----------


## Gez

> but some get picked up by software, and others don't.


Software is dumb and sees problem where there are none.

----------


## Ibrinar

> Ah, I apologize, I was using "resolution" in the literary sense. That is, a "resolution" is the literary device that brings a portion of a story to a close. I often forget that others don't have as much experience with the humanities as I do.


How exactly are they resolving something if you do not mean the they win because they started using the art sense?





> I'm not sure that necessarily holds. Rock-paper-scissors is defined by the fact that beating one does not imply beating the other.


Sure but for this it only needs to be better when fighting the opponent whether or not the opponent is a better matchup against someone else.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> How exactly are they resolving something if you do not mean the they win because they started using the art sense?


..........



> I was using "resolution" in the literary sense. That is, a "resolution" is the literary device that brings a portion of a story to a close.

----------


## Ibrinar

How do they do that exactly?

Maybe I should expand since you probably won't otherwise. The resolution is a part of a story/arc but if I described someones shirt as green during the resolution of course I wouldn't say the shirt being green resolves the arc (unless that is somehow an important plot point). To say it resolves something, literary definition or not, it actually has to play part in resolving it. If as lord_khaine they serve as flavoring then they wouldn't resolve anything. Declaring it the literary definition tells me very little about what you actually suggest they are doing in the story.

----------


## Rydiro

> Any word can be a swearword with the proper enunciation.


"Son of a weir!"

Regarding the comic:
For the most excellent warrior in all the multiverse, Jagganoth sure takes his time slowly escalating. I mean, you can do that sort of thing to get better when you are invulnerable.
But he still runs the risk of being defeated. Instead of going straight for the weakest links (Mottom, then Mammon, then Incubus, maybe Jadis) and taking their keys.

----------


## Onyavar

I'm seeing someone vital here. JADIS.

We have learned backstory about all the other demiurges (even though Goggie and Jagganoth still haven't revealed all that much) but Jadis is essentially a blank sheet. Especially within the confines of the comic, disregarding the tumblr lore.

That lore pointed out that she was getting frozen after she peeked at the shape of the universe... and we know she does prophesies.

Given how Jagganoth can perceive the Wheel of History being turned back in cyclical patterns, it is ultimately Jadis' turn to reveal her extensive knowledge, and I'm eager to see that reveal. Currently, we don't even know how long each loop lasts - was Zaid's/Allison's succession the start of the loop, or does that only occur near the end of each loop?

Possibilities:
- Jadis has been in her state for a long time before the wheel was reset for the first time. In that first case, I expect little insight from her except her observations.
- or, Jadis was frozen at the beginning of the first cycle, and the cyclical nature of the world has to do with her prison?
- maybe because she was trapped by Metatron and/or Zoss, and put under a curse to not be able to fully reveal her insights
- or maybe she is the _cause_ for the whole mess: Her peeking at the wheel has caused Metatron/Zoss to start the whole wheel-turning, to prevent the end of the universe at all.
- and so when she now spills the truth, it might cause Jagganoth to rethink his actions, and/or Allison to find a path to solving the problems. Given how awful these seven demiurges are, that solution should include dissolving their power.

tl;dr: I'm very sure that Jadis, with her prophesies and frozen state, is intimately connected to the alleged wheel-turning that Metatron and his pawn Zoss are doing.

----------


## Rydiro

> tl;dr: I'm very sure that Jadis, with her prophesies and frozen state, is intimately connected to the alleged wheel-turning that Metatron and his pawn Zoss are doing.


Or she doesn't matter at all, in a fatalistic sense. She does know EVERYTHING, every cycle, every reason, every mote of dust across eons and repeating cycles. By that she is crippled to helplessness. She is supposedly as omnicient as Kagganoth is invulnerable.

And I doubt Zoss is a pawn. Maybe Metatron/Michael likes to think so. Zoss is 50% royalty and thus he cannot be contained. They totally ditched their plan of omnicide for the "King Monomyth" when Zoss started cycling and their victory no longer achievable.

----------


## Thales

Well, we're finally getting the boss titlecard for Jagganoth. Why didn't he start off like this? And why is he only acting now?

----------


## Marcelinari

> Well, we're finally getting the boss titlecard for Jagganoth. Why didn't he start off like this? And why is he only acting now?


Because for all his willingness to break the wheel and destroy everything, our boy Jag didnt get to where he is today without a little showmanship.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Because for all his willingness to break the wheel and destroy everything, our boy Jag didnt get to where he is today without a little showmanship.


I sometimes wonder if having that sense of showmanship and drama isn't somehow inherent or relevant to being a badass in the setting. Like, no one who ever approached Royalty got there by not having some flair.

----------


## wingnutx

He wanted to give them some false hope before crushing them.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Because for all his willingness to break the wheel and destroy everything, our boy Jag didnt get to where he is today without a little showmanship.


This is quite possible. 
Its just as likely Jagganoth accepts this is the closest thing he will ever get to an exciting fight.
And that if he starts slow he will at least get a little bit of action before the show ends.

----------


## Rydiro

> I sometimes wonder if having that sense of showmanship and drama isn't somehow inherent or relevant to being a badass in the setting. Like, no one who ever approached Royalty got there by not having some flair.


Mottom basically confirmed that the Syllable Glory is about radiating awesomeness.

----------


## Wildstag

So to be clear, Jagganoth is jumping the gun super-hard here, right? Because it seems like his plan has to be "break the cycle by cutting it short", but that seems short-sighted. Not that I'd expect characters to be beholden or to be wary of dramatic tropes, but desperation often breeds miracles and shenanigans. I feel like acting early would just be more likely to cause problems than to end THE problem. 

Plus, not outright killing Ali right away leaves time for errors to spawn. 

And this is a thought, but the swordswoman (if she was named, I have forgotten it) was clearly shown acting at the start of Jag's appearance, so I wonder how long it'll take for her to show up again.

P.S. By short-sighted I mean that since he hasn't killed Ali, and could not steal the key by force, he leaves the possibility open for an unlikelihood to appear. It's short-sighted because it now leaves events to chaos instead of to plans.

----------


## BRC

> So to be clear, Jagganoth is jumping the gun super-hard here, right? Because it seems like his plan has to be "break the cycle by cutting it short", but that seems short-sighted. Not that I'd expect characters to be beholden or to be wary of dramatic tropes, but desperation often breeds miracles and shenanigans. I feel like acting early would just be more likely to cause problems than to end THE problem. 
> 
> Plus, not outright killing Ali right away leaves time for errors to spawn. 
> 
> And this is a thought, but the swordswoman (if she was named, I have forgotten it) was clearly shown acting at the start of Jag's appearance, so I wonder how long it'll take for her to show up again.
> 
> P.S. By short-sighted I mean that since he hasn't killed Ali, and could not steal the key by force, he leaves the possibility open for an unlikelihood to appear. It's short-sighted because it now leaves events to chaos instead of to plans.


It seems like his plan is to acquire the Key himself, and use it to kill Metatron/Zoss so the universe can die. 

The usual pattern seems to be

The Heir is chosen, they defeat the other Demiurges, they ascend the throne, they fail, Jagganoth kills the heir just before the universe resets. 


This time, Jagganoth seems to be jumping in, planning to kill the Heir BEFORE she kills the Demiurges, thus claiming her power for himself, and using it to kill Zoss/Metatron before the wheel can be turned back.

He's aware that this introduces a bunch of potential uncertainties. Not only is this Heir different from the others, she hasn't killed the Demiurges yet and claimed their keys. So rather than fighting an Heir with the power of 7 keys (Zoss+6 demiurges), who has ascended to the height of their glory, he is fighting a single, ascendant Heir, and six Demiurges. 

But if he can cut the cycle short, he might be able to break it.

----------


## Rydiro

> But if he can cut the cycle short, he might be able to break it.


His real flaw is that he cant change his ways. Kill everything, instead of trying a different approach. It never occurs to him that he could change himself and work with others for once.

----------


## lord_khaine

> His real flaw is that he cant change his ways. Kill everything, instead of trying a different approach. It never occurs to him that he could change himself and work with others for once.


Of course he cant try a different approach. He is the destroyer.
You dont get such a title from an inclination to kick over sandcastles.
Well except i guess, when you see all of creation as a flawed sandcastle. 
That should be removed to make room for a new.

----------


## sihnfahl

> His real flaw is that he cant change his ways. Kill everything, instead of trying a different approach. It never occurs to him that he could change himself and work with others for once.


Or he tried, in the past, to do so with the previous heirs.

And because they were simple men, they would not listen to Jaggy.  So he trapped himself in a cycle because he thought nobody who attained the power would willingly give it up.

----------


## Wildstag

Oh hey, ask and I shall receive! Turns out we see her again, and she's on the ground staring up. I really hope she shows up to interfere somehow.

----------


## wingnutx

Maya's timing is not very good.

----------


## wingnutx

I can't wait to see how she honors the pact.

----------


## wingnutx

The worm has turned.

----------


## Eldan

I honestly don't see how that's going to help. He has no Problem putting one worm clown down, and he has infinite swords.

----------


## Sean Mirrsen

> I honestly don't see how that's going to help. He has no Problem putting one worm clown down, and he has infinite swords.


"One worm clown" facetanked his WHARRGARBL laser and reconstituted in moments. If one of them can cause any damage at all, even if they can't bring him down, the net effect will be that he is continuously occupied with the clowns, and can't effectively attack the other players.

----------


## wingnutx

Whoah. Did not expect that.


Usul, we have wormsign the likes of which even God has never seen.

----------


## Iruka

That's more than I expected. Welcome to the Gogsphere.

----------


## Rydiro

> That's more than I expected. Welcome to the Gogsphere.


And every one of them will start telling bad puns till your ears bleed.

----------


## Eldan

I'm trying to decide if this artwork is more Kingdom: Death or Berserk. Kind of both?

Edit: I guess the alt text settles that.

----------


## Thales

Okay, good thinking by Incubus to grab a sword from among the many stuck in Mammon's neck.

----------


## Eldan

Aaand we're back to people stabbing each other with energy... 

I think this comic just might not be for me anymore. Art and character designs are still gorgeous, but I mainly liked earlier battles because they were hilariously chaotic crowd scenes of fascinating characters, not a few god types kamehameha-ing each other.

----------


## wingnutx

Give it a break and then scroll through a bunch of updates at once.

----------


## Eldan

Yeah, it's probably time to put this Comic on my "once half a year" list with Unsounded and Girl Genius. Better for heavily Story-based stuff anyway.

----------


## -D-

> Yeah, it's probably time to put this Comic on my "once half a year" list with Unsounded


Triggered  :Small Mad:

----------


## wingnutx

> Yeah, it's probably time to put this Comic on my "once half a year" list with Unsounded and Girl Genius. Better for heavily Story-based stuff anyway.


I have a hard time finding where I left off in Unsounded.

----------


## Eldan

> I have a hard time finding where I left off in Unsounded.


Start over at the last chapter you remember and do a re-read? 

I find Unsounded very readable chapter by chapter. They even have a mailing list that informs you when a new chapter is done, once or twice a year.

----------


## -D-

Or just read it page, by page and get hooked. People compare K6BD and unSounded but it's way more predictable.

Mon-Wed-Fri, unless Ashley's on a break (one in Summer and Winter) or unless there was a multichapter release.

----------


## wingnutx

Just tell her already.

----------


## Waistcoatwill

> Just tell her already.


It feels like both Motcom and Gog-Agog are just dropping the idiot ball with this.

----------


## Rakaydos

> It feels like both Motcom and Gog-Agog are just dropping the idiot ball with this.


Not even the end of the world is enough leverage to get Gog some respect. So be it. End of the world? Gog will be fine...

----------


## lord_khaine

> Not even the end of the world is enough leverage to get Gog some respect. So be it. End of the world? Gog will be fine...


When the end of the world isnt enough to make you stop acting like an idiot, you dont DESERVE respect.
And no. Gog wont be more fine than any other demiurge. Its still part of the world.

----------


## wingnutx

Maybe Gog can disperse into a trillion non-sentient worms and then reform after the event.

----------


## lord_khaine

And you think non-sentient worms are going to be able to survive the end of the universe because.. ?

----------


## slayerx

> And you think non-sentient worms are going to be able to survive the end of the universe because.. ?


Unless Jaggy is planning to wipe out all organic life, then the worms will survive. Jaggy plans to kill everyone, and worms feed on the dead.

----------


## Dragonus45

He _is_ planning to destroy everything. All of it, all of actuality will cease. That is 100% his plan. That said, the Worm that ****posts may actually have a plan to survive even that.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Unless Jaggy is planning to wipe out all organic life, then the worms will survive. Jaggy plans to kill everyone, and worms feed on the dead.


As already mentioned. Jaggy plans to destroy the universe to start over. Forget life. What kind of matter do you think will survive a complete universe reboot?

And i find it highly unlikely It can survive universal extinction. The one entity that -might- have a clue about that sort of thing is locked in a block of crystal.
Where it by all account wishes to die.

----------


## mystic1110

Wow  :Small Eek:

----------


## Thales

Finally, something is happening! And from the spoiler warning, it suggests that things will continue to happen.

----------


## -D-

Ouchie. 

Wonder how others are doing.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Wonder how others are doing.


My guesses:

Mammon, Mottom and Incubus are dead.

Solomon David might have survived by hyper-accelerating and getting clear of the attack, or by using a Ki Rata defensive technique. He's probably alive, but might be dead.

Jadis's ice might have protected her from the attack. If so, she's been cut free; if not, she's dead.

Gog-Agog is fine, because she left before the attack. Whatever individual worms were in the area are dead, though, so she probably won't be able to put in an appearance any time soon.

Cio and White Chain are probably in a state much like Allison.

Aspected Chaos might be dead, assuming death is a meaningful state for a composite entity.

Jagganoth is very slightly more tired.

A whole bunch of innocent bystanders are also dead.

----------


## Thales

I'm pretty sure Incubus isn't dead. Maya's plot revolves around him; for him to be killed off without them getting to interact again feels wrong. If he is dead, she will at least encounter his corpse.

I do hope Jadis isn't dead  we haven't seen her do anything, and I'd really like her to be more involved than delivering a prophecy way back near the start of the comic.

Mottom and Mammon I could see being dead. They're both relatively weak among the demiurges, and I don't see as many unresolved plot threads with them. Solomon David is a lot stronger, but honestly, I mostly think we're just waiting for him to do a ten-point ki rata strike.

----------


## -D-

Guess that cost them an eye and a leg. I mean shoulder leg.

----------


## Marcelinari

Well, we see at least one casualty. RIP Mammon, wholl never know just how much money he had.

----------


## -D-

> Well, we see at least one casualty. RIP Mammon, wholl never know just how much money he had.


You can say that again  :Small Eek: 

*Spoiler: welp*
Show


As in ripped in twain, and now used as a spiked club by Red God.

Incubus' reaction at the end was priceless.

----------


## Eldan

*Spoiler*
Show

I think my prediction still stands (which I'm not sure I've posted here:

This ends with Jag killing almost everyone and then a time loop, where Alison somehow keeps her memories.

----------


## Wizard_Lizard

Hey at least Incubus' hair is still in tact, all is not lost!!

----------


## wingnutx

Incubus: master of understatement.

----------


## Ibrinar

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I think my prediction still stands (which I'm not sure I've posted here:
> 
> This ends with Jag killing almost everyone and then a time loop, where Alison somehow keeps her memories.


*Spoiler*
Show

That would make sense as an outcome with it already being a loop. At the moment it is either escape somehow and needing a really major power up or something like the loop idea. But I kinda hope not because if only she keeps her memories one thing I dislike about longer time loops applies strongly, resetting relationship/character progression. White chain char development gone, AllisonXCio development gone (well for one of them), any relatonship with anyone she meet there gone... stuff like that is always a bit depressing about loops. 

Though I don't think speculation needs spoiler tags.

----------


## Wizard_Lizard

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> That would make sense as an outcome with it already being a loop. At the moment it is either escape somehow and needing a really major power up or something like the loop idea. But I kinda hope not because if only she keeps her memories one thing I dislike about longer time loops applies strongly, resetting relationship/character progression. White chain char development gone, AllisonXCio development gone (well for one of them), any relatonship with anyone she meet there gone... stuff like that is always a bit depressing about loops. 
> 
> Though I don't think speculation needs spoiler tags.


*Spoiler*
Show

I mean perhaps white chain and Cio would be fine, coz they've been touched by the master key sort of thing?
EDIT: I can also see Incubus bestowing his own set of keys unto alisson, and her finding other demiurges keys and that and then her getting a massive powerup from that..?

----------


## wingnutx

What level spell is "Juggy's Crushing Hand"?

----------


## Wizard_Lizard

> What level spell is "Juggy's Crushing Hand"?


Honestly I feel at this point of k6bd, we're well past 12th level spells...

----------


## halfeye

Who were these two? the big one looks like David, no clue about the other one.

----------


## Lurkmoar

> Who were these two? the big one looks like David, no clue about the other one.


Are you talking about the most recent update, as of 9/25?

----------


## Marcelinari

> Who were these two? the big one looks like David, no clue about the other one.


Perhaps he's hard to recognize with only two arms, but the big man on campus is (and always has been) Jagganoth. The lady is Mottom, in her 'Mother' aspect. We've usually seen her as Crone. All these people were on-panel for almost all of the current chapter.

----------


## wingnutx

That's not David, this is David...

----------


## Thales

Update. Good alt text "Solomon's No Good Very Bad Absolutely Awful Day". That said, the comic does highlight something that sort of bugs me about the setting.
*Spoiler*
Show

Courage and overconfidence and to some extent narrative are material forces in this universe that can bestow real power on someone. This lady, meeting Solomon  whom she has been raised to consider a god  and openly challenging his moral authority is probably doing the bravest thing we've seen anyone in the comic do. So why isn't she manifesting one hell of an Atum ring? I feel like some people in this are sort of doomed to be extras, regardless of how well they embody the setting's virtues.

----------


## Gez

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Courage and overconfidence and to some extent narrative are material forces in this universe that can bestow real power on someone. This lady, meeting Solomon  whom she has been raised to consider a god  and openly challenging his moral authority is probably doing the bravest thing we've seen anyone in the comic do. So why isn't she manifesting one hell of an Atum ring? I feel like some people in this are sort of doomed to be extras, regardless of how well they embody the setting's virtues.


Because her position is basically a rejection of all that stuff. She's standing as a normal person, not proclaiming some grand status just by virtue of her unbending will. She's precisely attacking the very idea of this self-claimed godhood, pointing out that it's complete bunk.

----------


## Rydiro

> Update. Good alt text "Solomon's No Good Very Bad Absolutely Awful Day". That said, the comic does highlight something that sort of bugs me about the setting.
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Courage and overconfidence and to some extent narrative are material forces in this universe that can bestow real power on someone. This lady, meeting Solomon  whom she has been raised to consider a god  and openly challenging his moral authority is probably doing the bravest thing we've seen anyone in the comic do. So why isn't she manifesting one hell of an Atum ring? I feel like some people in this are sort of doomed to be extras, regardless of how well they embody the setting's virtues.


She has no key and hasn't trained her inner energies.
And I doubt courage exactly is a force in this universe.
There are the seven syllables of royalty, and it doesn't map to any of the existing imo.

----------


## Thales

So what's going on with Nyave back in King of Swords, then? She doesn't have a key, she hasn't trained her energies, she's just an ordinary person (well, there's the theory that she got Gogged, but we haven't gotten further evidence of that). Nyave is making a fairly similar argument to the woman in this latest update, also standing as a normal person, and starts to manifest an atum ring.

And in the case of Allison (who granted does have a key), one of the things that does cause her ring to flare up is doing something inadvisable and brave, or deciding to act on her convictions. That seems to match pretty well with what this person is doing.

----------


## Eldan

I mean, judging by Aesma, it's not just confidence and bravery, it's also violence and self-delusion. 

I don't believe she thinks she's actually going to _do_ anything with this. She sees it as a possibly useless gesture herself.

Edit: the comment section also invented the word "peritheosis" and I'm loving it.

----------


## Gez

> And in the case of Allison (who granted does have a key), one of the things that does cause her ring to flare up is doing something inadvisable and brave, or deciding to act on her convictions. That seems to match pretty well with what this person is doing.


Allison is a Hero who confronts a Villain about his Wickedness.

That old woman is a person who confronts a human about his bullcrap.

Basically if she started to flare an atum ring, it would undercut her. She wouldn't anymore be just a person confronting another just a person, she'd start taking on a mythical nature and therefore give back to Solomon Dave his own mythical aura.

It's true that Nyave did start to flare some sparks of Atum when she discovered that the gods were actually just people.  But she wasn't confronting anyone there, it was a personal epiphany. And one that went the other way around: if the gods are just people, then I, as a person, can be their equal. Because let's face it, Nyave is on her own Hero's Journey here, what with tagging along Allison and the rest of her merry band. Whereas this woman says that if gods are just people, then they are her equal. She's not rising to be a hero, she's just casting down one who claimed that role. Being an anonymous lowly commoner is what gives her the strength to do this.

Because, as we've already seen, Solomon's one true weakness is his own people. Being their wise philosopher-king is what he's all about. He's incredibly vain. Heroes, people who manifest Atum rings? They play on his level, where he is virtually unbeatable, only fearing Jagganoth. They're all slaughtered without effort. But the people? The lowly people who should worship him? Against them he's powerless. Sure, he _could_ kill her, but it'd be a betraying of what he claims to stand for. The Rayubans have just known a cataclysmic disaster, he has failed to protect them. There's a few survivors there, maybe the last of them. There's no way for him to gain their respect back, not through violence against them anyway. When White Chain managed to punch him, his first impulse was to kill her, but the reaction of the crowd caused him to grant her victory -- he had to stick to the character he wants to be seen as. Same deal here.

By the way, it's probably significant that the only way for White Chain to beat Solomon was... to become an ordinary human woman.

----------


## BRC

So this is the first real evidence we've had that Solomon's Empire was anything but the utopia it appeared to be.

We had the idea that public drunkenness' was a serious offense, but we didn't get a firm context for what that means.

We had some signs that the public's relationship with their Paternum was perhaps not entirely healthy (The Soldiers building the Arena), and we had indication that Solomon's philosophy was maybe not the healthiest (Choosing a successor by "Can you draw blood"), but it seemed as though the society ITSELF was generally happy and well-run, and that the worst thing we could see was the soldiers being over-enthusiastic in their construction efforts. 


Now we know, in the Celestial Empire, Drunkenness gets you 25 years of your life taken away. Presumably, there are similarly harsh punishments for other minor infractions. It was a better place to live than the hellscapes that made up the other 6/7ths of the universe, but it wasn't perfect.

----------


## Rydiro

> So this is the first real evidence we've had that Solomon's Empire was anything but the utopia it appeared to be.
> [...]
> Now we know, in the Celestial Empire, Drunkenness gets you 25 years of your life taken away. Presumably, there are similarly harsh punishments for other minor infractions. It was a better place to live than the hellscapes that made up the other 6/7ths of the universe, but it wasn't perfect.


Well sure, his empire isn't perfect. In part, because Solomon is a flawed and traumatized person.
It sure is better than universal war or the other realms. He did keep his Empire safe for a thousand years, so that worked. The critique from the commoners and from Allison is somewhat hollow, because they don't actually know the challenges of ruling alongside 6 other mad demiurges.
Hell, Allison can't even keep her 5 personal relations abuse-free. Imagine her ruling millions.

----------


## Gez

Solomon holds himself to an impossible standard (we know he's not who he pretends to be, and I'm not talking just about the living god-king part, but more his general persona of the just and wise ruler) and, crucially, he holds his entire realm to an impossible standard as well. Leading to an extremely harsh and extremely bureaucratic empire.

Sure, you can live a prosperous life in that empire, but you have to always watch yourself.

----------


## Rydiro

Somehow, in the K6BD-verse, true royalty does not actually rule anything. From what we know, they are more likely to be drunk than ruling anything.

----------


## Gez

> Somehow, in the K6BD-verse, true royalty does not actually rule anything. From what we know, they are more likely to be drunk than ruling anything.


I get the feeling that in K6BD, the mystical notion of Royalty is not about ruling others, but more about not letting anyone (or anything) else rule over you.

----------


## Eldan

Or ruling yourself. (And the Universe is I, anyway.)

----------


## Yla

> So this is the first real evidence we've had that Solomon's Empire was anything but the utopia it appeared to be.
> 
> We had the idea that public drunkenness' was a serious offense, but we didn't get a firm context for what that means.
> 
> We had some signs that the public's relationship with their Paternum was perhaps not entirely healthy (The Soldiers building the Arena), and we had indication that Solomon's philosophy was maybe not the healthiest (Choosing a successor by "Can you draw blood"), but it seemed as though the society ITSELF was generally happy and well-run, and that the worst thing we could see was the soldiers being over-enthusiastic in their construction efforts. 
> 
> 
> Now we know, in the Celestial Empire, Drunkenness gets you 25 years of your life taken away. Presumably, there are similarly harsh punishments for other minor infractions. It was a better place to live than the hellscapes that made up the other 6/7ths of the universe, but it wasn't perfect.


There's a old snippet (I can't find it anymore, I think it was on tumblr or Twitter) on how the biblical story of Solomon, the two mothers, and the babe Actually Happened. It was published sometime around book 1 or 2 at the latest.

The super-surveillance police tracked down the father of the babe, an officer in the army, on the same day, and had him confirm which woman he had fathered the baby on.
The false mother was executed for lying to the court.
The father lost his career and was expelled from the army for fornication, turning into a drunkard and quickly dying of alcoholism.
The babe was taken into a state-run orphanage and raised there, into a healthy young man with a good career.
The real mother was condemned to six months of hard labor for seducing a soldier, turned her life around and became a administrative worker and productive member of society. And she never saw her child again (the snippet ended on that sentence).

This woman's story matches.

----------


## Thales

"Foribbden temple art". Well, the typo will probably be fixed soon, but it does add a bit of accidental levity to the scene.

*Spoiler*
Show

So what's happening here at the end? Looks like Solomon David is punching Jagganoth into another world? What other world? Or could it be another time?

----------


## tyckspoon

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> So what's happening here at the end? Looks like Solomon David is punching Jagganoth into another world? What other world? Or could it be another time?


*Spoiler*
Show

So either Jagganoth created some sort of dome/field/aura, and that red overcast is actually his Atum influencing everything instead of 'everything's on fire yo', which Solomon just shattered.. or Solomon is using his key to warp them off Rayuba (or possibly just to a less-populated part of Rayuba) so they don't keep breaking stuff he cares about. I think we just wait for the next comic to know for sure, although since the background behind the broken area looks pretty much the same as the area behind the orange/red tint I'm leaning towards Jagganoth created some kind of field or barrier and Solomon just busted it.

----------


## Gildedragon

This has got to be the end for both Jag and SD i suppose 

or close enough Inc can CDG one or both of them?
or give gog a chance to nab 1+ of the keys?
they'll have to respect her if she wielded 3 or more of the words!

----------


## InvisibleBison

> This has got to be the end for both Jag and SD i suppose


Solomon David is almost certainly about to die, but I fully expect Jagganoth to survive. Assuming his story about how Zoss is resetting the timeline is accurate (and I see no reason to doubt it), Jagganoth has slaughtered the mightiest fighters in the universe billions of times before. I highly doubt he's never fought anyone as strong as Solomon David in all that time. And from a more meta perspective, the story has for a long time been signalling that Jagganoth is the ultimate threat, and that Allison's victory will come not through being the biggest badass but through her relationships with her friends and their ability to fight together. Having Solomon David kill Jagganoth seems completely incompatible with the themes of the story (at least, as I understand them).

Also, don't put too much stock into the description of Solomon David's attack - Jagganoth's ultimate attack had a similar grandiose description which it completely failed to live up to.

----------


## tyckspoon

> Solomon David is almost certainly about to die, but I fully expect Jagganoth to survive. Assuming his story about how Zoss is resetting the timeline is accurate (and I see no reason to doubt it), Jagganoth has slaughtered the mightiest fighters in the universe billions of times before. I highly doubt he's never fought anyone as strong as Solomon David in all that time. And from a more meta perspective, the story has for a long time been signalling that Jagganoth is the ultimate threat, and that Allison's victory will come not through being the biggest badass but through her relationships with her friends and their ability to fight together. Having Solomon David kill Jagganoth seems completely incompatible with the themes of the story (at least, as I understand them).
> 
> Also, don't put too much stock into the description of Solomon David's attack - Jagganoth's ultimate attack had a similar grandiose description which it completely failed to live up to.


David is certainly going to die. He's going for a literal Blaze of Glory in a move that will complete both his 'I'm the only one of you lunatics who is taking Jagganoth's threat seriously' thread and the 'I am the protector of my people, if I do not have their faith and trust I am nothing' thread. And since the overall story isn't about SD -- and for the other Demiurges in particular, it's about how they are in fact incredibly powerful but also incredibly broken people and the ways this causes them to fail - then he's going to fail. The question is what does he achieve while fails? I'm thinking he takes Jagganoth to another world or at least a remote part of Rayuba and keeps him busy there long enough for Allison & Co to abscond to another location, so they have time to lick their wounds and plan their next act.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

> David is certainly going to die. He's going for a literal Blaze of Glory in a move that will complete both his 'I'm the only one of you lunatics who is taking Jagganoth's threat seriously' thread and the 'I am the protector of my people, if I do not have their faith and trust I am nothing' thread. And since the overall story isn't about SD -- and for the other Demiurges in particular, it's about how they are in fact incredibly powerful but also incredibly broken people and the ways this causes them to fail - then he's going to fail. The question is what does he achieve while fails? I'm thinking he takes Jagganoth to another world or at least a remote part of Rayuba and keeps him busy there long enough for Allison & Co to abscond to another location, so they have time to lick their wounds and plan their next act.


I agree. I think Solomon will die without seriously harming Jagganoth, but will still achieve some kind of respite for the others.

----------


## Avaris

Yeah, this definitely feels like a story moment of enabling the protagonists and remaining demiurges to escape. If Solomon dies here, but the others all survive, that will mean that the three demiurges killed in this battle will be the three that have had most focus time so far, leaving this book to explore the others a little more.

----------


## Rydiro

> "Foribbden temple art". Well, the typo will probably be fixed soon, but it does add a bit of accidental levity to the scene.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> So what's happening here at the end? Looks like Solomon David is punching Jagganoth into another world? What other world? Or could it be another time?


Looks like they take the fight to the outskirts of Throne.

Edit/Addendum: No demiurge mantled their soul against Jaggy, except maybe Mottom. I thought they would use their keys more. Jaggy even explicitly challenged them to do so.

----------


## wingnutx

At least Incubus has kept his sense of humor.

----------


## Thales

Update! Another long yet dialog-light one.
*Spoiler*
Show

Okay, another world, it seems to be. And then another, and then another, and then, unambiguously, Throne. Wonder what happens now? 10 point strike, which destroys Throne and destabilizes the Wheel?

----------


## Thales

Further explosions!

By the way, the technique Solomon David is using is described as "opening all energy channels of the body". Now, this setting has magic, so I'm not expecting conservation of energy, but if it were observed, hypothetically this ultimate attack would convert all of Solomon's mass to energy. How big of an explosion would that make? Well, 1 kilogram of matter is equivalent to 10^16 Joules of energy. Solomon is probably on the order of 100 kg, so that's 10^18 J.

Looking it up, that's about 240 megatons of TNT. By way of comparison, this is about five times the yield of the Tsar Bomba, the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated, and a bit higher than the energy released by the 1883 eruption of Krakatoa. This nearly destroyed the (fairly small) island Krakatoa was on. That said, it's still orders of magnitude lower than the energy of the Mount Tambora eruption or the hourly influx of solar energy across Earth, and vastly lower than the energy of the impact that wiped out the dinosaurs. Throne is in trouble, but if Solomon is limited by conservation of energy, it should at least still exist after this.

----------


## JavaScribe

Does the technique's name mean Solomon's going to try forcing Jagganoth into the cycle of reincarnation?

----------


## Ibrinar

> Further explosions!
> 
> By the way, the technique Solomon David is using is described as "opening all energy channels of the body". Now, this setting has magic, so I'm not expecting conservation of energy, but if it were observed, hypothetically this ultimate attack would convert all of Solomon's mass to energy. How big of an explosion would that make? Well, 1 kilogram of matter is equivalent to 10^16 Joules of energy. Solomon is probably on the order of 100 kg, so that's 10^18 J.
> 
> Looking it up, that's about 240 megatons of TNT. By way of comparison, this is about five times the yield of the Tsar Bomba, the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated, and a bit higher than the energy released by the 1883 eruption of Krakatoa. This nearly destroyed the (fairly small) island Krakatoa was on. That said, it's still orders of magnitude lower than the energy of the Mount Tambora eruption or the hourly influx of solar energy across Earth, and vastly lower than the energy of the impact that wiped out the dinosaurs. Throne is in trouble, but if Solomon is limited by conservation of energy, it should at least still exist after this.


9*10^16 so about an order of magnitude more. but yeah not quite world destroying.
Though from a recent chapter comment throne isn't world sized 



> Yes, sort of. If I remember correctly, Word-of-God(author) says that Throne is roughly the size of California, so large chunks of it can be aquatic and still leave a significant amount of room for the action to take place in.


On the other hand, who knows how sturdy it is compared to a normal world. Well it isn't what he is doing so i suppose it doesn't matter.

----------


## Rakaydos

Remember to hit the back button, because it was a double update.

Anyway, Dark Spirit bomb, drawn from the densest populated realm in the multiverse.

----------


## lord_khaine

It seemed a little uncertain.
Could also just be the impact from the technique before.
But oh dam the previous comic was intense. And thanks for the heads up on the double update.

----------


## Wildstag

Dude's still only using the one hand though. Probably should have sprung for a two-hand technique. I'm willing to bet Jag survives.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Dude's still only using the one hand though. Probably should have sprung for a two-hand technique. I'm willing to bet Jag survives.


I don't think that's correct. Ki rata works by concentrating "force on a point smaller than a pin-prick, giving blows absolutely phenomenal power." It seems to me that when you're using multiple points, you'd want them to be as closely concentrated as possible, to deliver the attack on as small a portion of your opponent's body as possible. If I'm correct, a ten-finger, 77-point strike would be less powerful than a five-finger, 77 point strike.

Also, Solomon David is one of the top three or so fighters in the universe. I think it's safe to assume he knows what he's doing.

I do agree that Jagganoth is definitely going to survive, though.

----------


## Thales

Next update will apparently be a doozy. 12 pages is a lot! I'm glad to hear there's still a lot more story left to tell; this fight hasn't exactly been dedicated to tying up character arcs of the leads, just some of the demiurges.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Next update will apparently be a doozy. 12 pages is a lot! I'm glad to hear there's still a lot more story left to tell; this fight hasn't exactly been dedicated to tying up character arcs of the leads, just some of the demiurges.


This is literally the start of the last book, there is an entire book to go after the fight is over and always has been? Nevermind looks like there is a book 6 now as well. Either way there was always going to be more plot after the fight.

----------


## Wizard_Lizard

Oooo Jadis finally appears! Can't wait to see where this goes!!

----------


## Lurkmoar

Is uh... Jadis dead?

----------


## lord_khaine

> Is uh... Jadis dead?


I think the answer is somewhere between yes and no?

----------


## tyckspoon

> Is uh... Jadis dead?


Quite probably yes! Of course merely being dead does not mean one stops existing, especially not when you've seen the shape of the Wheel and know the difference between life and death is just another great cosmic lie.. Jadis 'dying' may just have pulled a Force Ghost and freed her from the restrictions of her corporeal body.

----------


## Rydiro

I really hoped for a happy end for Cio (and maybe Allison).
Maybe good writing is sometimes sad.

----------


## Waistcoatwill

> I really hoped for a happy end for Cio (and maybe Allison).
> Maybe good writing is sometimes sad.


Agreed, I'm going to trust that it will play out well (if not happily)...but damb that's difficult!

----------


## InvisibleBison

I wouldn't count Cio out yet - this isn't the first time her mask has been destroyed, after all.

----------


## Rydiro

> I wouldn't count Cio out yet - this isn't the first time her mask has been destroyed, after all.


It dissolved into goo. She is dead for goo-d.
Not sorry for that low pun.

----------


## Rilmani

So! If Abaddon is permitted to stick to the schedule by his lady and his baby, we will have an update sometime this month. What do we think, gang? Will we cut to White Chain? Will we jump to Jadis crib? Is Zoss going to pop up again?     

I really doubt we will cut to Jagganoth immediately. I could see a page from HIMSELF or METATRON coming up. Perhaps METATRON consuming 2 Michael and other angels in order to correct the course of this Cycle.

----------


## Rakaydos

> So! If Abaddon is permitted to stick to the schedule by his lady and his baby, we will have an update sometime this month. What do we think, gang? Will we cut to White Chain? Will we jump to Jadis crib? Is Zoss going to pop up again?     
> 
> I really doubt we will cut to Jagganoth immediately. I could see a page from HIMSELF or METATRON coming up. Perhaps METATRON consuming 2 Michael and other angels in order to correct the course of this Cycle.


"Guest comics" from the War For Ryuba game might be interesting, though it may require a bit of setup to establish as canon.

----------


## Anarchic Fox

I'm happy about the story containing an additional book. When the original plan was aired it seemed way too compressed.

----------


## Wildstag

Alas, we'll be waiting until April or later for the next one. Seems like 90% of the webcomics I read are doing chapter breaks right now.

----------


## wingnutx

IT'S BACK!

https://killsixbilliondemons.com/com...-121-to-4-122/

----------


## TaiLiu

> IT'S BACK!


What a brutal return. She's gonna come back wiser, smarter. But she won't be able to just smash her way through challenges anymore.

----------


## JavaScribe

Ouch. She's well on her way to becoming the greatest, most important piece of crispy fried charcoal of all time.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> What a brutal return. She's gonna come back wiser, smarter. But she won't be able to just smash her way through challenges anymore.


Did she actually ever successfully smash her way through a challenge, though? As I recall, all of her attempts to do so ended badly.

----------


## Aquillion

> What a brutal return. She's gonna come back wiser, smarter. But she won't be able to just smash her way through challenges anymore.


I am pretty sure she's going to ultimately get even more badass as a result of this, given that the cover of the book shows her with what looks like Zoss' prosthetic arm.  Besides, it's pretty heavily shown that power in the setting (especially if you have a key) is more about determination than your physical body - Incubus seemed to believe that as long as her will didn't break she'd have no trouble fighting Jagganoth with him, and he's an expert.  Plus, I mean...  Incubus should know, he's one of the more dangerous of the Seven and his body is a scarred wreck.

Also, she tried her hardest not to smash through this one, but Jagganoth wasn't taking it.

I don't think the story is going to be resolved by a throwdown fight, but it's not really a given that losing two limbs and an eye makes you weaker in a setting like this one.  Look at Maya's sword.

----------


## Thales

Huh, Allison seems to be in worse shape than she was after the big fight with Jagganoth. Here, she's also missing a leg (and her hair, though that might not be injury). It's not like those were lost against Incubus either. Was her leg actually injured in a way that just didn't show up or impede its function before this?

----------


## lord_khaine

> Incubus should know, he's one of the more dangerous of the Seven and his body is a scarred wreck.


Counterpoint. I doubt everyone would have looked down on him if it was the case. 

As for his body. Scarred yes. Wreck clearly not as soon as he assumed his war form.
That btw didnt lack any vital pieces for fighting.

----------


## Eldan

> Huh, Allison seems to be in worse shape than she was after the big fight with Jagganoth. Here, she's also missing a leg (and her hair, though that might not be injury). It's not like those were lost against Incubus either. Was her leg actually injured in a way that just didn't show up or impede its function before this?


The comments are extensively wondering about that too. She is still hobbling along on both legs after Jagganoth dices her, and Cio, who has mostly the same injuries can still walk, so the leg injury is still unexplained so far.

----------


## Rydiro

> Counterpoint. I doubt everyone would have looked down on him if it was the case. 
> 
> As for his body. Scarred yes. Wreck clearly not as soon as he assumed his war form.
> That btw didnt lack any vital pieces for fighting.


Incubus was kinda crazy and coping. Jag just having picked up two extra keys and 4 demiurges out of the fight. Having No idea where Jag is, but Inky wants to continue fighting. Wouldn't count on Inky to be mentally reliable in that scene.

----------


## lord_khaine

I think your entering the conversation lacking contex :D

----------


## TaiLiu

> Did she actually ever successfully smash her way through a challenge, though? As I recall, all of her attempts to do so ended badly.


Yeah, that's true, but she could and did try. I assume that there'll be a loss of power-as-cudgel. Especially since she probably won't have time to really train or anything. It's of course possible that I'm wrong about this.




> I am pretty sure she's going to ultimately get even more badass as a result of this, given that the cover of the book shows her with what looks like Zoss' prosthetic arm.  Besides, it's pretty heavily shown that power in the setting (especially if you have a key) is more about determination than your physical body - Incubus seemed to believe that as long as her will didn't break she'd have no trouble fighting Jagganoth with him, and he's an expert.  Plus, I mean...  Incubus should know, he's one of the more dangerous of the Seven and his body is a scarred wreck.
> 
> Also, she tried her hardest not to smash through this one, but Jagganoth wasn't taking it.
> 
> I don't think the story is going to be resolved by a throwdown fight, but it's not really a given that losing two limbs and an eye makes you weaker in a setting like this one.  Look at Maya's sword.


No disagreement about her badassness. I just think the lack of training time and serious recovery time will mean she'll have to make up for it with either tech (I guess that's the arm?) or smarts or both.

----------


## Rydiro

> Yeah, that's true, but she could and did try. I assume that there'll be a loss of power-as-cudgel. Especially since she probably won't have time to really train or anything. It's of course possible that I'm wrong about this.
> 
> 
> No disagreement about her badassness. I just think the lack of training time and serious recovery time will mean she'll have to make up for it with either tech (I guess that's the arm?) or smarts or both.


I think the story already hinted at that. Violence will be necessary, but it alone will not be decisive. See her revelation that the demiurges are lonely, Zoss confirmation that violence isn't true strength and the comical inability of the demiurges to work together just once.

----------


## wingnutx

> Counterpoint. I doubt everyone would have looked down on him if it was the case.


They look down on him for not conquering his own throne. He only has it because Maya abdicated. 

Also, they all look down on each other. Gog is held in contempt by the rest of the seven, and she's actually the strongest.

----------


## Lurkmoar

> They look down on him for not conquering his own throne. He only has it because Maya abdicated. 
> 
> Also, they all look down on each other. Gog is held in contempt by the rest of the seven, and she's actually the strongest.


Strongest? I dunno. Hardest to put down? Agree.

----------


## Aquillion

IIRC the author has specifically said that she would be the strongest if it weren't for her flights of fancy.

----------


## Rydiro

> IIRC the author has specifically said that she would be the strongest if it weren't for her flights of fancy.


 Wasn't it because Gog is literally unable to focus her hive-mind completely?
As is Jadis, she probably cannot focus on the present very well. I mean, no surprise when Zoss smashes the reboot button like a metal drummer. She might have a hard time telling all those samey cycles apart. She probably just half-assed the prophecy about the king, giving the same lines she gave the last thousand times.

----------


## lord_khaine

> They look down on him for not conquering his own throne. He only has it because Maya abdicated.


Yes. I find it highly unlikely they would have looked down on him if his power had been something they respected or feared.




> IIRC the author has specifically said that she would be the strongest if it weren't for her flights of fancy.


I have not seen any comments like that.
But i have seen one stating Jadis would be strongest if not for her "accident"




> As is Jadis, she probably cannot focus on the present very well. I mean, no surprise when Zoss smashes the reboot button like a metal drummer. She might have a hard time telling all those samey cycles apart. She probably just half-assed the prophecy about the king, giving the same lines she gave the last thousand times.


Its WOG Jadis delivers propechies thats 100 % correct. The error lies in her followers interpreting her whispers.

----------


## Dragonus45

> I have not seen any comments like that.
> But i have seen one stating Jadis would be strongest if not for her "accident"



I've seen it before, it's on the Tublr they do WOG answer on. Unfortunately it's not the kind of thing I can google search at work and I don't remember the exact wording but it was less a comment about pure might and power then it was about being something close to literally impossible to kill her before she would eventually overwhelm and wear down _almost_near anything or anyone.

----------


## wingnutx

> IIRC the author has specifically said that she would be the strongest if it weren't for her flights of fancy.


This is correct.

----------


## JavaScribe

I've been wondering whether this verse had the tech/sorcery for regrowing limbs, and I've been wondering why it's previously been implied that Allison won't be using any of it and will eventually become a burned out husk.

I assume Allison's apparent recovery is an illusion?

----------


## Thales

It might not be an illusion. Remember that when she made her deal with Incubus, the wounds she sustained from Mottom's plants healed, and when she expelled Incubus, the wounds reopened. It may be that at some point, she rejects Jadis's aid and has to heal herself on her own as best as she is able.

----------


## lord_khaine

Thats a very different situation your describing.
Allison made a pack with Incubus for power. And when she lost that power, she lost the tempoary fix on her body.

Here the damage is far more extensive, and the fix have been applied to her while unconcious and unable to accept a deal. 
Over a supposedly longer period.

But i cant see why we are debating this. Just Jadis not being in a cube should be hint enough this is a dream.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Just Jadis not being in a cube should be hint enough this is a dream.


I believe she was liberated from the cube in the end of the last chapter.

I think it was sort of symbolic.

With the cycle apparently broken, so does her prison.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I believe she was liberated from the cube in the end of the last chapter.


Liberated? But the cube wasnt her prison. 
It was her protection when she wrecked her mind and body viewing the wheel.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Liberated? But the cube wasnt her prison. 
> It was her protection when she wrecked her mind and body viewing the wheel.


I count that as liberated.  As she couldn't leave the cube because her mind and body were wrecked, it's as much a prison as a protection.

----------


## JavaScribe

I'm going to guess that Jadis is showing Allison what will happen if Allison takes the time to heal properly, as opposed to using an emergency quick fix that will leave her body permanently ruined?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> I'm going to guess that Jadis is showing Allison what will happen if Allison takes the time to heal properly, as opposed to using an emergency quick fix that will leave her body permanently ruined?


Why would Jadis want Allison to do that?

----------


## JavaScribe

Because there isn't enough time to heal properly, and as such, sacrifices must be made?

----------


## TaiLiu

I was pretty confident that this was all a dream. But, uh, not so sure anymore!




> I think the story already hinted at that. Violence will be necessary, but it alone will not be decisive. See her revelation that the demiurges are lonely, Zoss confirmation that violence isn't true strength and the comical inability of the demiurges to work together just once.


Yeah, my comment wasn't uniquely insightful or anything. Although if this time skip is real, I dunnomaybe she _will_ get a chance to be buff again.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> I was pretty confident that this was all a dream. But, uh, not so sure anymore!


What makes you think that this might be real? I'm still convinced it's an illusion of some sort.

----------


## TaiLiu

> What makes you think that this might be real? I'm still convinced it's an illusion of some sort.


I dunno! I think Jadis might be a mind projection of some sort, since she's out of the glass and not a corpse. It seems like an awful lot of detail to go into for something that's not real? Jadis is awkward and if I was doing a super powerful illusion I would make myself less awkward.

I don't think I have a good argument for it. It just feels like the argument against it is less convincing.

----------


## Rydiro

> What makes you think that this might be real? I'm still convinced it's an illusion of some sort.


The longer a scene goes on, the less likely it is illusory, because the story needs to progress at some point.
I'm with TaiLiu here, i switched from illusion to magitech as an explanation. No real proof either way yet.

----------


## wingnutx

Jadis is definitely only visible in Allison's mind.

----------


## Mobius Twist

Interestingly, Jadis cast a shadow on the floor back when Allison first woke up. Only the hallway instance is not phyiscal?

----------


## lord_khaine

Thats well spotted. Good point. 
Or well perhaps Jadis put more attention into her projection back then?

----------


## TaiLiu

> The longer a scene goes on, the less likely it is illusory, because the story needs to progress at some point.
> I'm with TaiLiu here, i switched from illusion to magitech as an explanation. No real proof either way yet.


Yeah, that's a much better way of putting it. Take the OOTS illusion scene. We knew it was an illusion pretty quickly, and the party broke out of it in a few strips.




> Jadis is definitely only visible in Allison's mind.





> Interestingly, Jadis cast a shadow on the floor back when Allison first woke up. Only the hallway instance is not phyiscal?





> Thats well spotted. Good point. 
> Or well perhaps Jadis put more attention into her projection back then?


Curiously, in this latest strip, Jadis seems to be blocking the light once more.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Yeah, that's a much better way of putting it. Take the OOTS illusion scene. We knew it was an illusion pretty quickly, and the party broke out of it in a few strips.


I think that can be handwaved by the difference between Rich's and Abbadon's pacing.




> Curiously, in this latest strip, Jadis seems to be blocking the light once more.


We're also closer to her, so little art flairs like that can be waved, unless the artist is known for being particularly meticulous about even the smallest of details, regardless of perspective.

----------


## wingnutx

> i switched from illusion to magitech as an explanation.


I'm starting to think it may be magnets.

----------


## lord_khaine

.. are they going to show Allison the shape of reality?

----------


## Rydiro

> I'm starting to think it may be magnets.


Definately magnets in there somewhere.

----------


## TaiLiu

> I think that can be handwaved by the difference between Rich's and Abbadon's pacing.
> 
> We're also closer to her, so little art flairs like that can be waved, unless the artist is known for being particularly meticulous about even the smallest of details, regardless of perspective.


The comic is consistent with your hypothesis, yeah.  :Small Smile:

----------


## sihnfahl

Now Allison sees the horror that is Jadis' life.

----------


## Ibrinar

You know I consider deterministic decisions still decisions. Because I consider something a decisions when it is picking between choices based on a combination of personality, knowledge, mood, desires and such things. Since the things have a specific state at a specific point the resulting decision is predictable with perfect knowledge  (Except maybe for quantum randomness.). But why would the outcomes being inconsistent be desirable anyway? - However knowing all these outcomes beforehand would make it hard to perceive anyone as actor. (I guess quantum mechanics in the setting aren't true randomness either.)

I wonder how this interacts with the time loop, does it contain all loops or just the current loop? To be static and have stuff about the MC requires all loops I guess.

----------


## Rydiro

I'd have so many questions. Like how does Jadis come up with the things she does. She decides to do or say things. It seems she lost her insight into the why though. She has the magical power to do a bunch of stuff, but only acts in the most rare and contradicting circumstances.

----------


## mystic1110

> You know I consider deterministic decisions still decisions. Because I consider something a decisions when it is picking between choices based on a combination of personality, knowledge, mood, desires and such things. Since the things have a specific state at a specific point the resulting decision is predictable with perfect knowledge  (Except maybe for quantum randomness.). But why would the outcomes being inconsistent be desirable anyway? - However knowing all these outcomes beforehand would make it hard to perceive anyone as actor. (I guess quantum mechanics in the setting aren't true randomness either.)
> 
> I wonder how this interacts with the time loop, does it contain all loops or just the current loop? To be static and have stuff about the MC requires all loops I guess.


Since word of God is that Jadis knows more than anyone ever - assuming that means metatron and gang - she would know about the loop, all the loops, if they end, how they started. Even quantum randomness. Theres no such thing for her - she knows each quantum result. She knows too much.

----------


## sihnfahl

> I'd have so many questions. Like how does Jadis come up with the things she does. She decides to do or say things. It seems she lost her insight into the why though. She has the magical power to do a bunch of stuff, but only acts in the most rare and contradicting circumstances.


Because she saw the script.  She has the writer's notes.  She has the artists' vision.

She doesn't 'come up' with things.  She's beyond the Fourth Wall, relaying what the writer has to say through her.  Do through her.  Perhaps, at first, she only realized it in retrospect.  She saw her actions as the only things she COULD have done.  Then she looked forward and saw the things that she not just will do, but MUST do.  Because that's the story Yisun has written.

And maybe not even Yisun.  The writer who created Yisun....

----------


## lord_khaine

Possibly she is the person i feel the most pity for.
Since it part it seems like she stopped being a person.
She has less free will than anyone else. And she knows it.

----------


## mystic1110

> Possibly she is the person i feel the most pity for.
> Since it part it seems like she stopped being a person.
> She has less free will than anyone else. And she knows it.


Shes dr. Manhattan. No one has free will if her assertions are correct - shes just the only one who knows it.

----------


## Rydiro

> Because she saw the script.  She has the writer's notes.  She has the artists' vision.
> 
> She doesn't 'come up' with things.  She's beyond the Fourth Wall, relaying what the writer has to say through her.  Do through her.  Perhaps, at first, she only realized it in retrospect.  She saw her actions as the only things she COULD have done.  Then she looked forward and saw the things that she not just will do, but MUST do.  Because that's the story Yisun has written.
> 
> And maybe not even Yisun.  The writer who created Yisun....


Sure thats the speech she gave, but she can notice Allisons thoughts and emotions and reasons.
She can't notice her own. Its like the knowledge erased her own motivations and emotions. It's not mutually exclusive to have motivations and being trapped in the amber, so why can she sense Allisons reasons, but not her own?

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Since word of God is that Jadis knows more than anyone ever - assuming that means metatron and gang - she would know about the loop, all the loops, if they end, how they started. Even quantum randomness. Theres no such thing for her - she knows each quantum result. She knows too much.


This could also mean she knows if Allison will end up breaking the wheel and creating a scenario she cannot see, but also knows she never will act to particularly [stop/enable] this and never tells Allison the nature of her fate, thus causing Allison to achieve the ultimate result.
Also, rather interesting to see Laplace's Demon bound not by the linearity of time so much as absolute apathy towards it.

----------


## BRC

> Sure thats the speech she gave, but she can notice Allisons thoughts and emotions and reasons.
> She can't notice her own. Its like the knowledge erased her own motivations and emotions. It's not mutually exclusive to have motivations and being trapped in the amber, so why can she sense Allisons reasons, but not her own?



She may very well have emotions, but her perspective is such that acknowledging them does her nothing.

She doesn't ascribe motivations to herself, just inevitability. She knows what she will do, and therefore, her reason for doing anything is the knowledge that she will do it. 

She certainly seems to show emotions, she has empathy for Allison. She doesn't behave as an emotionless being, so much as a powerless one. 

Two teacups exist, one is slightly chipped. She knows she will drink tea out of the chipped one. She may even be perfectly aware of why (She knows exactly how to hold it so it will not spill, her guest would not have that same knowledge), but that is irrelevant.

She has perfect knowledge of everything, if she were going to choose the unchipped cup, she would already know that. The fact that she knows she will choose the chipped cup means she will choose the chipped cup. 

She could go through the mental processes of making a decision, "If I take the chipped cup, I can drink from it without spilling a single drop. Therefore, I shall take the chipped cup", or she could simply act on the decision she already knows she will make, even as she also has full awareness of why she will make that decision.  


It's not so much that she does not have emotions, or reasons, it's that her relationship with causality is different. She does not perceive herself as making decisions, so much as moving through a script. This logic twists back onto itself, each decision is an immutable, unchangeable moment. 

Maybe once she made decisions normally, even as she knew what decision she would make and why, but eventually the "Why" becomes irrelevant. She makes decisions because she knows she will make them.

----------


## Thales

Hey, boss titles for Jadis! Have any of the demiurges not gotten those yet? Did Incubus?

----------


## mystic1110

Jadis was the only one remaining. And what's interesting is the word she bears now - which was not one of the original seven. Looks like Mind was the price for Shape.

----------


## Divayth Fyr

> Jadis was the only one remaining. And what's interesting is the word she bears now - which was not one of the original seven. Looks like Mind was the price for Shape.


Minor nitpick - Shape isn't called a word here. This may or may not be important (but probably the former imho).

----------


## Eldan

Incubus had titles, yes.

*Spoiler*
Show




Also interesting: I think Jadis is the only one so far not called "God of the Seven-Part World".

Edit: Jagganoth had "Destroyer of the Seven-Part World".

----------


## sihnfahl

> Incubus had titles, yes.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also interesting: I think Jadis is the only one so far not called "God of the Seven-Part World".
> ...


And Nadia, Goddess of the Seven Part World.




> Minor nitpick - Shape isn't called a word here. This may or may not be important (but probably the former imho).


It seems to be a Word.  An Idea.  A Truth.

----------


## Rydiro

@BRC: That actually makes a lot of sense.
---
The Shape is the Shape of the Wheel and thus her perfect knowledge.
The Words are the seven syllables of Royalty. Shape isn't one of them.

I guess she lost her mind upon becoming omniscient.

----------


## Gez

> The Shape is the Shape of the Wheel and thus her perfect knowledge.
> The Words are the seven syllables of Royalty. Shape isn't one of them.
> 
> I guess she lost her mind upon becoming omniscient.


She ceased being Royalty by becoming omniscient. It's the whole issue of free will vs. predestination. Now that she knows every action she will ever take, she no longer acts because she does what she wants to do at any point, she only follows her script because she's convinced she cannot do anything else.

So she can no longer be the Bearer of a word of Royalty. Instead, she is the bearer of the Shape of the cosmos.

Anecdotally, the whole mystical concept of Royalty comes from Morrowind's lore, where Royalty was basically defined as doing what Jadis has done while still retaining your own will and sense of self. Something that Jadis clearly failed to do.

----------


## slayerx

> She may very well have emotions, but her perspective is such that acknowledging them does her nothing.
> 
> She doesn't ascribe motivations to herself, just inevitability. She knows what she will do, and therefore, her reason for doing anything is the knowledge that she will do it. 
> 
> She certainly seems to show emotions, she has empathy for Allison. She doesn't behave as an emotionless being, so much as a powerless one. 
> 
> Two teacups exist, one is slightly chipped. She knows she will drink tea out of the chipped one. She may even be perfectly aware of why (She knows exactly how to hold it so it will not spill, her guest would not have that same knowledge), but that is irrelevant.
> 
> She has perfect knowledge of everything, if she were going to choose the unchipped cup, she would already know that. The fact that she knows she will choose the chipped cup means she will choose the chipped cup. 
> ...


Actually now i'm thinking that what if the reason she is unable to do anything differently than what she knows will happen is because she is incapable of even perceiving herself in the present. What if she see's what she does in the future and the past as clearly as she does the present? If she see's the past and future just as clearly as she sees the present, then how does she know which is which? If she is incapable of telling the difference between the present and the future she would be unable to do anything to make her present self do anything differently that might change the future. Trying to tell her present self to do something differently would be like trying to tell a memory of something you did in the past to do something differently. She might be able to physically control herself in the present, but if she doesn't know what the present is, then the present becomes just as unchangeable as a past event that already happened. 

She doesn't need any reasons or motivations for anything she does. She can't do anything different because to her "it already happened"

----------


## lord_khaine

> She doesn't need any reasons or motivations for anything she does. She can't do anything different because to her "it already happened"


Thats a really interesting take on her situation. 
Thumbs up for deep thinking!

----------


## Thales

Really good art on this latest update. I like how the perspective is shifting in the last panel, making the hole appear more like it's in the floor and thus something one could fall into.

----------


## TaiLiu

I wonder if this is when Alison's philosophy minor will come in handy. So much physics and metaphysics and the philosophy of mind being thrown around. Probably not, though.

----------


## Rydiro

Definitive proof that Jadis is a liar.
There were plants, but the promised breakfast is nowhere to be seen.
Say what you will about Mottom, but at least she was polite enough to serve a meal before unveiling her horrors.

----------


## wingnutx

I predict a supercharged Allison.

----------


## InvisibleBison

I predict the Master Key is going to break the machine.

----------


## Rydiro

I predict she will see Zoss riding the wheel.

Edit: Like a unicycle

----------


## Eldan

> I predict she will see Zoss riding the wheel.
> 
> Edit: Like a unicycle


How about there's the wheel, but then also a second smaller wheel behind it. 




Also, Jadis definitely put too many things on her bagel.

----------


## LecternOfJasper

And so the Successor's enlightenment has been conceptualized using 108 burning threads....

----------


## Anarchic Fox

Ugh. Omniscience is one of my three most hated tropes, along with time travel and alternate realities. Still, the author has established enough credit that I think the ending will be solid.

To clarify, I hate these tropes when they appear late, in a story mostly about other things. If the story is entirely about one such trope, it can be quite good. Everything Everywhere All at Once was fantastic, Primer was fantastic, that episode of Red Dwarf with the oracle was fantastic, but Avengers: Endgame (with two of the three tropes airlifted in) had me frothing.

----------


## Eldan

Uh, is the new comic supposed to be just an entirely black page or is my computer not loading it?

----------


## PraetorDragoon

> Uh, is the new comic supposed to be just an entirely black page or is my computer not loading it?


Its supposed to be a tiny picture of Allison with a large colourful space-like background

----------


## Eldan

After a lot of zooming around, I have found Allison, but no nackground. I am not worthy to see the wheel.

----------


## Rydiro

> Uh, is the new comic supposed to be just an entirely black page or is my computer not loading it?


The page is unconventional. Probably a browser-dependant thing (Site backgroundis rainbow rays, picture small allison).

----------


## halfeye

New page (same background); what just happened?

----------


## mystic1110

> New page (same background); what just happened?


Looks like the background has changed for every page of the comic. Might be a formatting issue or might be an effect that nothing can be, will be and never was the same after, before and during the viewing of the shape, that the shape was viewed, will be viewed and is being viewed now, that causality is fiction. But probably also that causality has a formatting issue.

----------


## Rydiro

> But probably also that causality has a formatting issue.


That explains all the quantum stuff.

----------


## Eldan

Clearly, Yisun set the universe to the wrong object class or something, which made it all quantum.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Clearly, Yisun set the universe to the wrong object class or something, which made it all quantum.


Considering all the stuff Allison has been dealing with, does that make her a garbage collector of some sort?

----------


## Rydiro

> Considering all the stuff Allison has been dealing with, does that make her a garbage collector of some sort?


She has been more of a glitch in the system that gets the code running in unforeseen and disrupting directions.

----------


## wingnutx

> Considering all the stuff Allison has been dealing with, does that make her a garbage collector of some sort?


A 'waste-lock', to use JTHM's term.

----------


## wingnutx

> Definitive proof that Jadis is a liar.
> There were plants, but the promised breakfast is nowhere to be seen.
> Say what you will about Mottom, but at least she was polite enough to serve a meal before unveiling her horrors.


It was on the grill.

----------


## mystic1110

> Definitive proof that Jadis is a liar.
> There were plants, but the promised breakfast is nowhere to be seen.
> Say what you will about Mottom, but at least she was polite enough to serve a meal before unveiling her horrors.


She could lie if she knew she was supposed to lie, but seems that she knew she would tell the truth, so she did.

----------


## Rydiro

> She could lie if she knew she was supposed to lie, but seems that she knew she would tell the truth, so she did.


Imo it's not a breakfast when consumed at night-time (or rather -place).

Also, who builds an atrium with plants on the dark side?

----------


## halfeye

> Imo it's not a breakfast when consumed at night-time (or rather -place).


It's a breakfast if it breaks your fast, e.g. after sleeping.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> It's a breakfast if it breaks your fast, e.g. after sleeping.


No, it isn't. Etymology is not definition. "Breakfast" specifically refers to a meal eaten in the morning, even if you've eaten something between waking and the meal. I've never seen or heard the term breakfast being used to refer to eating after fasting for a while.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Also, who builds an atrium with plants on the dark side?


Or it's only dark now.

Cause, you know, they all seem to love drama.  So it's important for the current situation that it be dark.

----------


## halfeye

> No, it isn't. Etymology is not definition. "Breakfast" specifically refers to a meal eaten in the morning, even if you've eaten something between waking and the meal. I've never seen or heard the term breakfast being used to refer to eating after fasting for a while.





> Breakfast is the first meal of the day usually eaten in the morning.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakfast

I mean, the Wikipedia article is a mess on the whole, with whole bunches of stuff, but the above is the first line.

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## mystic1110

Does throne have a sun? Does it have morning or night?

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## InvisibleBison

> Does throne have a sun? Does it have morning or night?


It does, but the sun is broken - it stays in one place and never moves, so it's always the same time in any given part of Throne. Although it seems like Jadis's temple is in a part that gets at least some sunlight.

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## mystic1110

Then makes sense that sometimes you will eat breakfast during darkness

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## Rydiro

> Or it's only dark now.
> 
> Cause, you know, they all seem to love drama.  So it's important for the current situation that it be dark.


My point was, since Thrones sun doesn't move, the atrium will always be in darkness.
Its obviously in the part of the pyramid thats facing away from the sun.

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## -D-

> Then makes sense that sometimes you will eat breakfast during darkness


Did Jadis gain 100kg between panels?

She might have midnight munchies, and since it's always midnight...

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## wingnutx

> Did Jadis gain 100kg between panels?
> 
> She might have midnight munchies, and since it's always midnight...


She's wearing a big, David Byrne sized kimono.

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## InvisibleBison

I think I'm starting to see some sort of connection between the comic and the text story. I suspect Prim will encounter someone with a philosophy similar to what Jadis is espousing a couple updates from now.

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## sihnfahl

How do you break the infinite?

You convince it that it does not exist.

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## PoeticallyPsyco

> I think I'm starting to see some sort of connection between the comic and the text story. I suspect Prim will encounter someone with a philosophy similar to what Jadis is espousing a couple updates from now.


What's this about a text story?

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## slayerx

> What's this about a text story?


The story right below the comic page

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## PoeticallyPsyco

> The story right below the comic page


Wow, I literally never noticed that. Problem with binge reading I guess.

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## mystic1110

> Wow, I literally never noticed that. Problem with binge reading I guess.


You're in for a treat with a re-read then, the stories are some of the best parts.

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## wingnutx

Somebody's been training.

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## Gez

I like how they're given translation brackets because they're speaking English.

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## Rydiro

> I like how they're given translation brackets because they're speaking English.


I like how she rescued him first, and then he rescued her.
Or at least he's currently trying to.
I think this level of (mutual) responsibility is rare in modern stories, a thing I like about Allison. Its wholesome.
Not as wholesome as Cio watering her plants and loving Allison, but still.

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## wingnutx

She's made a decision.

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## Rydiro

> She's made a decision.


True to herself, a questionable one. It was perfectly fine stuff.

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## lord_khaine

The mouseover text is hilarious xD

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## Anarchic Fox

I was unhappy with the comic for a span, but the recent sequence has renewed my enthusiasm. Of course we knew Alison would decide to leave, but it was a powerful moment nonetheless.

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## wingnutx

I think we are about to see Jadis unchained.

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## lord_khaine

I am confused why Allison didnt want her Bionics though.

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## Rakaydos

> I am confused why Allison didnt want her Bionics though.


They arnt her power. She cant push them beyond their limits with an act of will, and at the level she is operating, it doesnt matter if she actually has the limbs or not.

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## Gez

> They arnt her power. She cant push them beyond their limits with an act of will, and at the level she is operating, it doesnt matter if she actually has the limbs or not.


It's not a question of whether or not she can use her powers with them, why couldn't she use them? Her power is theoretically limitless.

No, it's far more primal than that. She explained it here:
https://killsixbilliondemons.com/com...-167-to-4-168/
The prosthetics Jadis gave her made her return to a state she had left. But it's a trap, she cannot move forward if she lets others carry her backward. Her whole scene is about staying true to her nature even if that makes her suffer. Rejecting the bionics is the ultimate expression of that.

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## JavaScribe

I've seen several stories treat getting scarred and increasingly crippled as if it was a form of character development. I can certainly admire the tenacity it takes to overcome that kind of adversity, but it kind of bugs me when being crippled is treated as if it were in itself a positive thing, as if healing would be a bad thing. Kinda like the situation Durkon's mother has chosen to be in.

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## BRC

> I've seen several stories treat getting scarred and increasingly crippled as if it was a form of character development. I can certainly admire the tenacity it takes to overcome that kind of adversity, but it kind of bugs me when being crippled is treated as if it were in itself a positive thing, as if healing would be a bad thing. Kinda like the situation Durkon's mother has chosen to be in.


Yeah

So, symbolically, what's happening is that Jadis is presenting Allison with an option to, basically, disengage and wait for the end, "healing" defined as "Returning to being who she was before she was hurt", the prosthetics erase the damage, and Allison can avoid confronting the world out there. Trying her hardest to pretend that the bad thing never happened, since facing it is futile. 

symbolically, pulling out the prosthetics is Allison deciding to move on, to face her trauma again in hopes of maybe finding a better place past it. Healing as forward motion instead of regression. 


Which, okay, powerful symbolism. Maybe something to be said there about confronting one's trauma.

But literally, Allison is ripping out very useful prosthetics to, I dunno, make a point? Acknowledge she was hurt? Reject Jadis's offer to sit around the temple waiting for the universe to end?

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## sihnfahl

> But literally, Allison is ripping out very useful prosthetics to, I dunno, make a point? Acknowledge she was hurt? Reject Jadis's offer to sit around the temple waiting for the universe to end?


Because it was imposed on her, instead of by her consent.

They were given with the intent to make her try to ignore the outside world.  Be content.  She's physically as she was before she took her first step in Throne.  On Jadis' terms.

So she will get her own prosthetics in the future... or find a way to heal herself.  But on her terms, by her choice.

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## Dragonus45

Being a keyholder demigod divine whatever she is she is pretty far into the real of "the body as a metaphorical vessel" territory, add in that in this universe symbolic gestures like this are also literally real plues I don't think this will have any effect on her in a functional way so it it all  makes sense.

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