# Forum > Comics > Webcomics >  Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

## SZbNAhL

This is the discussion thread for Tom Siddell's webcomic Gunnerkrigg Court, which updates every Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

*Previous Threads:*
_Gunnerkrigg Court_ (February 9, 2009 - December 13, 2010)
_Gunnerkrigg Court 2: Small Medium at Large._ (December 13, 2010 - June 4, 2012)
_Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!_ (June 2, 2012 - May 20, 2013)
_Gunnerkrigg Court 4: Friends in Need_ (May 20, 2013 - September 29, 2014)
_Gunnerkrigg Court 5: Bismuth as Usual_ (September 29, 2014 - August 17, 2015)[/QUOTE]
_Gunnerkrigg Court 6: Fire Away_ (August 17, 2015 - May 24, 2017)
_Gunnerkrigg Court 7: Psychopomp and Circumstance_ (May 25, 2017 - December 22, 2019)

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## lord_khaine

Well this is BS. Its not like Annie has anything to do with this.
Or any direct way of influencing Coyote. Besides politely asking. 
They should just be glad she did not ignore them completely in the stasis field.

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## Gez

When they were in the stasis field, they were in stasis. So it's not like they were conscious of being trapped in stasis and getting frightfully bored. From their perspective, they were going on their own business when suddenly they get booted out of the forest. And it's perfectly possible they even know Loup booted them out because Annie said she needed their help -- that's the kind of things Loup would tell them while he's telling them to GTFO. And don't forget that Annie is officially the Forest's medium. She _works_ for Loup.

So they have a lot of good reasons to be angry at Annie; at least from their perspective where they cannot know the bigger picture that we, as readers, are shown.

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## Ellen

They have a cultural taboo against interacting with Coyote.

This taboo is enforced with legends/examples of what happened  to people who broke the taboo. The point of the stories is that, if you do this, bad things happen to you and_ to the people around you_ and it will be _your_ fault.

Annie's actions as medium were part of her job. Technically, that means she didn't break the taboo. But, she was having tons more to do with Coyote than any of these elves would have. That made her suspect before things went wrong.

When things went wrong, Annie fit the criteria of "person to blame." That makes her the scapegoat. 

The thing about scapegoats is that they don't have to be at fault they just have to be a person who can be blamed. These people have lost their homes and everything familiar to them. They're angry and upset and need someone to blame.

It's a more human reaction than we've seen from the people in the forest up till now. It fits how the story has been developing. Previously, the forest dwellers were, to some degree, a bit idealized. Despite Coyote being creepy and sometimes terrifying, the forest people overall seemed better and nicer than the court (which can also be creepy and terrifying). They seemed to accept Annie as one of their own. Now, we're seeing an understandable but less pleasant side of them.

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## wingnutx

I'm guessing that foot belongs to Paz.

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## Chromascope3D

Combat encounter: Start!

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## RowenMorland

I hope Paz tells us what she thinks Annie is doing fairly quickly.

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## RCgothic

At the moment it's pretty hard to see what Annies could possibly do about this situation. "Sorry for existing?"
I suspect Paz is being pretty unreasonable here unless she has a solution.

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## Typewriter

I'm guessing the problem that's being presented here is that Annie isn't paying any attention to how Kat is handling things. Kat is working to fix Annie's problems and worrying about her, and maybe feeling 'left out' now that Annie has a second Annie to hang out with. This has been sort of a recurring theme for Annie lately - she focuses on doing what she thinks is right and someone else accuses her of being self centered.

I also feel like Paz probably brought all this up to Kat and Kat doesn't think it's a big deal because she understand why Annie does things the way she does and agrees with her view of prioritizing the important things over the impacts that it has on some individuals.

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## 137beth

She doesn't sleep AND she can't concentrate?  One of those things is probably the result of the other.

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## theKOT

I mean, Annie isn't putting Kat first here because the entire court and forest are at risk. Paz is letting her romantic entanglements rob her of perspective. What is she, a teenager? Oh right...

Side note, the last few strips have been "Annie blamed for things outside of her/their control". I wonder if this is going to be part of a statement on the unrealistic expectations people can have on those in positions of power or authority, or if it is just a coincidence.

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## Neoriceisgood

Genuinely curious where this particular story thread will end up going, the Annies are really getting heat from all angles right now.

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## Typewriter

This is not a complaint - just an observation/thought/opinion.

Does anyone else feel like the pacing feels really weird the last few chapters? Pretty much ever since Loup appeared everything has felt very... temporary. Loup is here, there's a battle starting, Annie is split into two distinct beings. All that is happening but now we're just sort of pausing for this scene.

Again - not complaining or saying it's a bad scene or arc or anything - but I feel like there's a bunch of stuff that's just hanging around waiting for resolution. I personally can't feel myself to feel heavily invested because I'm just sort of assuming that at some point (literally at any moment) one of the Annie's is going to go away, or they're going to merge, or something. It feels like the things that are happening probably aren't important because the parts that are actually relevant to the story (character arcs?) is being told as a very small part of a bigger story (war with a god?) that feels like it's going to wind up undone or mostly 'resolved.'

I don't feel like I'm describing my thought very well, but does anyone sort of understand what I'm trying to say? I'm still enjoying it but for the first time in the years that I've been reading GC I feel rather detached from the majority of the story.

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## geoduck

It's been hinted that _both_ of the Annies and/or the whole current timeline aren't the ones we started the strip with. Until we learn what's actually going on, it kind of puts a damper on caring what happens to them.

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## Willie the Duck

> Does anyone else feel like the pacing feels really weird the last few chapters? Pretty much ever since Loup appeared everything has felt very... temporary. Loup is here, there's a battle starting, Annie is split into two distinct beings. All that is happening but now we're just sort of pausing for this scene.
> ...
> I don't feel like I'm describing my thought very well, but does anyone sort of understand what I'm trying to say? I'm still enjoying it but for the first time in the years that I've been reading GC I feel rather detached from the majority of the story.


I think one of the big things is that we have no idea where we are going, in terms of scope, process, or even what we're addressing. Now it's usually not a great thing to know ahead of time what will happen in a story, but you do usually* kind of want to know what the rest of the story will likely be addressing (say, in _Raiders of the Lost Ark_, we are going after the Ark, and not building into a WWII war movie, or the like). Since returning from the forest (again), it sounds like the main protagonist group is trying to get Loup the other lost memory of Coyote back to placate him. Up until then, we didn't even know if they were going to acquiesce to Loup or try to defeat him. Is the court being helpful? What's the deal with the robots, and who is right about how best to use them? 
_*Exceptions and subversions exist, and of course there's always the movie/show/book that you thought was going to be a murder mystery, and then you find out that the victim faked their death to help rob a casino and it's really a crime caper, but those have to be the exception for them to be the one with the twist._

Mind you, all of these things are needed in a story (including not knowing what's going on), but that is part of the set-up, and more than a year into this arc, it's a little surprising to still be groping about in the dark, feeling for the walls in an attempt to define the boundaries of the story.

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## Typewriter

> Since returning from the forest (again), it sounds like the main protagonist group is trying to get Loup the other lost memory of Coyote back to placate him. Up until then, we didn't even know if they were going to acquiesce to Loup or try to defeat him. Is the court being helpful? What's the deal with the robots, and who is right about how best to use them?


This sort of highlights a major part of the issue for me - up to this point I've felt like I knew about the same amount of information as what the main characters new. As they were discovering things we were discovering things. Sure, some times things aren't revealed as part of a twist, but for the most part you know what the character knows.

Right now I don't know what the characters know. I don't know what's going on with Annie in her home life, or at the school. I know only the basics that have been shown. It's causing me to feel a disconnect.

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## KatsOfLoathing

> It's been hinted that _both_ of the Annies and/or the whole current timeline aren't the ones we started the strip with. Until we learn what's actually going on, it kind of puts a damper on caring what happens to them.


Forest Annie/The One With Long Hair is, presumably, the original Annie that we're familiar with, unless she was somehow swapped with another right in front of our eyes. Court Annie/The One With Short Hair is evidently from another timeline. Since both of them have been "shifted", though, it would seem the timeline we're currently in (and thus, the rest of the cast) is not the original we know, and there's a third Annie lost somewhere else in the multiverse that we haven't even met yet, which Kat is invested in finding. Our Timeline and The New Timeline don't seem to have any noticeable differences from each other (since I _think_ the divergence point was when Loup shuffled Annie(s) around), but it would be interesting to see how they've changed if/once we're returned to the original. 

Speaking of, I think we're long overdue for a Kat-centric chapter. It's been a while since there's been one and it'd be nice to really understand what's on her mind lately.

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## Willie the Duck

I thought it was established that both Annies were not our original Annie.

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## SZbNAhL

> I thought it was established that both Annies were not our original Annie.


It was established that neither is in the correct timeline. That could mean that neither is "our" Annie, but it could also mean that one of them is "our" Annie and she's not in "our" timeline.

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## wingnutx

I'm guessing that our Annie is in the wrong timeline.

also...

*Spoiler*
Show

Zimmy! This is going to be good.

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## 137beth

I was definitely not expecting them to show up.
*Spoiler*
Show

Zimmy might be able to figure out what happened to the original Annie.

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## wingnutx

I didn't remember her as being that small.

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## Zea mays

Gammas done some growing.

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## Max_Killjoy

The other possibility is that BOTH Annies are "our Annie", and that attempting to figure out which one is "real" is counter-productive both in-story and from our POV.

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## Ellen

Paz was crossing a line. You generally don't get to tell your love interest's friends to go away, even if you think they're bad for her. She's also ignoring that Kat has her agency and the right to make choices, even if Paz feels they're bad ones (I'd disagree, since Kat is trying to save the robots from losing their self-identity and is working with Annie to keep the court safe from Loup).

However, Paz at least thinks Annie is actively involved in creating these problems, so there's that. She sees herself as going protecting Kat from Annie's abuse rather than recognizing she's just stepped into semi-abusive behavior (trying to control Kat and get rid of friends of Kat's she doesn't like).

It's also interesting how things have changed. When we first met Annie, she befriended things that most people would find terrifying (a minotaur, a ghost, Rey in a dragon-like body, Rey in his new body after Annie knew he'd tried to possess her, etc). They responded with apparent friendship.

Now, Annie's older and the world isn't that simple. Coyote's friendship was always potentially dangerous and Loup's is downright psychotic. People Annie knows are angry or afraid of her.

While it's hard for Annie, I like how things are changing as she grows up and are becoming more complicated.

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## Iruka

Well that solved exactly nothing.

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## wingnutx

It was useful exposition.

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## 137beth

Maybe they're getting ready to deploy the Omega Device?

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## Lizard Lord

I am confused by how Zimmy defines magic. If something that "is explained by not having an explanation" isn't magic then what is?

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## halfeye

> I am confused by how Zimmy defines magic. If something that "is explained by not having an explanation" isn't magic then what is?


Quantum Mechanics isn't definitively explained yet (as I understand things), but that's not magic is it?

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## Rodin

> Quantum Mechanics isn't definitively explained yet (as I understand things), but that's not magic is it?


There's a distinction in what Zimmy is saying.  

Kat believes that magic is like Quantum Mechanics - it's something that *has* an explanation, but we don't know what it is...and ergo it isn't magic, it's just sufficiently advanced science that _appears_ to be magic.

Annie believes that magic is magic, and cannot be explained because it is magic.

Zimmy is saying that "magic" is something that cannot be explained...but it isn't actually magic.  It's just something that cannot be explained by its very nature, and no amount of studying it will give an explanation.  The difference between this and what Annie believes is a very fine line, but I think I get what she's talking about.  Magic would be supernatural.  The ether is entirely natural, but cannot be explained by science.

I think.

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## halfeye

> There's a distinction in what Zimmy is saying.  
> 
> Kat believes that magic is like Quantum Mechanics - it's something that *has* an explanation, but we don't know what it is...and ergo it isn't magic, it's just sufficiently advanced science that _appears_ to be magic.
> 
> Annie believes that magic is magic, and cannot be explained because it is magic.
> 
> Zimmy is saying that "magic" is something that cannot be explained...but it isn't actually magic.  It's just something that cannot be explained by its very nature, and no amount of studying it will give an explanation.  The difference between this and what Annie believes is a very fine line, but I think I get what she's talking about.  Magic would be supernatural.  The ether is entirely natural, but cannot be explained by science.
> 
> I think.


How are we sure that quantum mecanics has an explanation?

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## Rodin

> How are we sure that quantum mecanics has an explanation?


We aren't, but scientists (like Kat) are convinced that it does.  We just don't know it yet.  In Kat's view, quantum mechanics and magic are identical.

Zimmy is saying she is wrong, while also stating that magic does not exist.

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## Ibrinar

> There's a distinction in what Zimmy is saying.  
> 
> Kat believes that magic is like Quantum Mechanics - it's something that *has* an explanation, but we don't know what it is...and ergo it isn't magic, it's just sufficiently advanced science that _appears_ to be magic.
> 
> Annie believes that magic is magic, and cannot be explained because it is magic.
> 
> Zimmy is saying that "magic" is something that cannot be explained...but it isn't actually magic.  It's just something that cannot be explained by its very nature, and no amount of studying it will give an explanation.  The difference between this and what Annie believes is a very fine line, but I think I get what she's talking about.  Magic would be supernatural.  The ether is entirely natural, but cannot be explained by science.
> 
> I think.


Though I would consider supernatural just our categorization of magic because we consider it something that doesn't exist. I wouldn't consider supernatural part of the definition of magic.

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## Rodin

> Though I would consider supernatural just our categorization of magic because we consider it something that doesn't exist. I wouldn't consider supernatural part of the definition of magic.


When you go down that route it leads to defining magic out of existence, rather like Zimmy is doing.  If magic is something that follows the natural laws of the universe (even if they are not "real world" laws), then what is it other than a different form of science?  A thousand years ago, electricity was magic.

What exactly IS the objective definition of magic?  I'm not sure there is one.

To me, describing magic as "supernatural feats not performable in the real world" is the simplest and most flexible definition to start with.  You can sub-divide and exclude things from there, like mutant and superhero powers.  Ultimately, what magic is will depend on what work of fiction you are discussing.  You still have to have _somewhere_ to start if you're going to try and compare Gandalf to Dr. Strange.

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## halfeye

> When you go down that route it leads to defining magic out of existence, rather like Zimmy is doing.  If magic is something that follows the natural laws of the universe (even if they are not "real world" laws), then what is it other than a different form of science?  A thousand years ago, electricity was magic.
> 
> What exactly IS the objective definition of magic?  I'm not sure there is one.
> 
> To me, describing magic as "supernatural feats not performable in the real world" is the simplest and most flexible definition to start with.  You can sub-divide and exclude things from there, like mutant and superhero powers.  Ultimately, what magic is will depend on what work of fiction you are discussing.  You still have to have _somewhere_ to start if you're going to try and compare Gandalf to Dr. Strange.


Gandalf isn't Dr Strange and/or Merlin?  :Small Confused:

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## Rodin

> Gandalf isn't Dr Strange and/or Merlin?


...No?

I'm really baffled by what you're asking here.

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## halfeye

> ...No?
> 
> I'm really baffled by what you're asking here.


It's sort of a joke mainly: but really, they are all fiction, they are each the top non-"evil" magic user in their respective stories, how are they different.

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## 137beth

> To me, describing magic as "supernatural feats not performable in the real world" is the simplest and most flexible definition to start with.


I partially agree.  However, unless a work of fiction breaks the fourth wall, this definition is not possible for characters in-universe to understand.

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## Lizard Lord

It just reads to me as defining magic as something that can't exist without giving any other explanation to it just for the sake of proving those (like Annie) that believe in magic wrong. Those that believe in it wouldn't agree with such a definition.

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## Gez

The best approach I've seen is that magic can be either exploited or explained, but not both.

Suppose you can generate fireballs at will. Your scientist friend comes up with a lot of ways to examine and analyze what's happening. Finally he discovers that all along it was just spontaneous explosions of swamp gas, a complete coincidence. Now you can't generate fireballs at will anymore. Thanks, scientist friend.

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## Narkis

> The best approach I've seen is that magic can be either exploited or explained, but not both.
> 
> Suppose you can generate fireballs at will. Your scientist friend comes up with a lot of ways to examine and analyze what's happening. Finally he discovers that all along it was just spontaneous explosions of swamp gas, a complete coincidence. Now you can't generate fireballs at will anymore. Thanks, scientist friend.


I don't see how explaining a phenomenon stops you from using it as you did before. People didn't randomly stop being able to make fire when it was discovered that it's the bonding of carbon and oxygen and not a classical element.

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## Lizard Lord

> The best approach I've seen is that magic can be either exploited or explained, but not both.
> 
> Suppose you can generate fireballs at will. Your scientist friend comes up with a lot of ways to examine and analyze what's happening. Finally he discovers that all along it was just spontaneous explosions of swamp gas, a complete coincidence. Now you can't generate fireballs at will anymore. Thanks, scientist friend.


That's just it. Magic that can't be explained is thus defined by being something that is explained by not having an explanation. "It just works" is the only explanation. However Zimmy, who doesn't believe in magic, is saying that something that is explained by not having an an explanation isn't magic. So then what, according to her, would be magic? Does Zimmy just define magic as something that doesn't exist?

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## Gez

> I don't see how explaining a phenomenon stops you from using it as you did before.


Because it turns out you've never been using it before, it was just a bunch of freaky coincidences!

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## Narkis

> Because it turns out you've never been using it before, it was just a bunch of freaky coincidences!


And the coincidences coincidentally stopped coinciding just when given a scientific explanation? Suspicious.

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## Gez

> And the coincidences coincidentally stopped coinciding just when given a scientific explanation? Suspicious.


Less suspicious than if they kept happening.

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## Typewriter

> That's just it. Magic that can't be explained is thus defined by being something that is explained by not having an explanation. "It just works" is the only explanation. However Zimmy, who doesn't believe in magic, is saying that something that is explained by not having an an explanation isn't magic. So then what, according to her, would be magic? Does Zimmy just define magic as something that doesn't exist?


Perhaps it's more of a comprehension thing. Things that happen that can't be understood from a 'mortal' POV are classified as magic. It doesn't mean that no explanation exists so much as it means that we just can't understand it. Maybe that's one of the things that's leading Kat to eventually becoming a god - she's learning more and more about 'magic' and learning more and more how to do things that others don't understand. If the ether is part of a higher plane and she's able to reach 'up' to that higher plane to force it to have effects back 'down' in the normal plane that's pretty intense.

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## 137beth

So any bets as to who this mysterious person talking to the robot is?

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## Lizard Lord

> So any bets as to who this mysterious person talking to the robot is?


Didn't she already say? She is a program representation in the robot's mind to help it through this process.

If she was Kat she would have said so and I don't see why she would be any other known character.

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## Typewriter

> Didn't she already say? She is a program representation in the robot's mind to help it through this process.
> 
> If she was Kat she would have said so and I don't see why she would be any other known character.


I wonder if there's not a bit more to it than that. Kat doesn't strike me as the sort to create 'angels' to do her bidding so I'm guessing that this program is some sort of 'transition assistant' that she had Robot build for her. Robot, being robot made it into this 'divine' experience. Or maybe the transition process involves the ether and it's taking a program Kat made and 'adapting' it based off of her divine aspects. She makes something that looks ordinary to her - but to everyone else it looks like an angel?

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## wingnutx

It's just a character generation wizard that looks like a person.

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## Haruspex_Pariah

Huh. Now I wasn't expecting that. Knowing Tom it might be a red herring that is deflated in the very next page, but if it isn't...

The guide claimed to be a representation, but since these are robots we are talking about, it's possible that they are capable of serious multi-tasking.

Could it be the boat? It was capable of networking.

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## wingnutx

The guide is very similar to Neuromancer.

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## Zea mays

Robots discovering their inner fish.

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## Typewriter

I'm finding chapter very interesting. Kat has always been my favorite character and I've always been curious about her status as a 'god' and how it comes to be. All this time it seemed like it was stemming from a simple misunderstanding. Robot thinks Kat is amazing, tells other Robots, then the other robots worship her. Their worship grants her power and form in the ether. As they come to her she helps them in small ways that they mistake for angelic/divine intervention.

But at this point I'm not so sure that calling it a simple misunderstanding or mistake is really appropriate anymore. She's creating worlds for creatures to live and thrive in. She's not just 'helping' robots with little things here and there - she's freeing the minds of an oppressed people and granting each of them a kingdom of self discovery and wonder. How could that be, from the Robots perspective, anything other than a divine presence? If some entity suddenly freed me from physical constraints that I never knew I had, allowing my mind to grow and expand, to see, hear, feel, and understand things I'd never before thought possible wouldn't I think of it as some form of divine being?

And the more I think about it the more I find this to be an amazing parallel to the conversation about magic between Zimmy and Annie. What is magic if not forces that cannot be understood? What is divinity to the robots if not forces that cannot be understood. 

On the one side of the story we have the Kat as the benefactor of 'magic' - granting a power that she understands to those who can't fathom it.
On the other side of the story we have Annie as the recipient of 'magic' - receiving a power that she doesn't understand and who can't fathom it.

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## 137beth

There are two new retrospective videos for the Annie in the Forrest side-comics.

I thought some fans' reactions to AitF was utterly nonsensical. The text of part 2 states explicitly what was strongly implied in part 1: Annie (incorrectly) thought that Kamlen had a crush on her. Somehow, though, some readers managed to convince themselves that AitF "definitively confirms" that Annie has or had a crush on Kamlen.  The comic actually states no such thing, and doesn't even do much to hint at it except to show Annie blushing (which, as the author points out, can mean other things).  It is entirely possible to think (correctly or not) that someone is attracted to you even if you aren't attracted to them.  The text doesn't say Annie isn't attracted to Kamlen, but it doesn't say she is, either.

I get that some people are shippers and want to see Annie in a relationship with someone, but what someone wants to happen in the comic, what someone predicts will happen in the comic, and what already has happened in the comic are three different things.  

Given my past thoughts on how fans interpreted the side comics, I was quite amused to hear Magnolia in the video say that Annie was crushing on Kamlen in that first scene, followed by Tom's reaction.

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## Haruspex_Pariah

My first time reading the Coyote comic.

*Spoiler*
Show

So it was Coyote who took Ysengrin's ear. I guess their relationship was bad from the beginning.

Also, Coyote's approach to gaining powers is interesting. Just...meet new dogs and imitate them. And based on his interaction with the raven, he already had powers before that.

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## 137beth

*Spoiler: Coyote*
Show

The appearance of Coyote gaining strength has some visual similarities to Coyote giving 'his' strength away.  Maybe Tom used one as a reference for the other.

Also interesting to see that from Coyote's perspective, the river is basically a line in the dirt.

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## wingnutx

Eglamore you dog.

 :Sabine:

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## Narkis

Heh. This page is much funnier in retrospect.

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## wingnutx

> Heh. This page is much funnier in retrospect.


The look on his face makes more sense now.

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## Max_Killjoy

Has she been calling Annie "Babs" since they met, or is that a new thing?  I don't recall.

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## wingnutx

Third frame, really weird shoulder and arm.   Looks like a goon from Popeye.

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## Clertar

Eglamore is officially a total daddy.

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## Ellen

This has me wondering, do elves keep children sheltered from adult sex, so Annie didn't see this part of their life in the forest but Idris has no problem with letting an older Annie see it now? Was it out in the open, but Annie was naive enough not to see it? Did she have a mental line between what happens in the forest and what happens in the court?

Or is this because it's Idris and A TEACHER!!! (who, in the eyes of most students, don't have lives apart from being teachers [dressing up like a knight errant and hanging out with someone who looks like a dragon can still be filed under "Things teachers do at school"]).

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## wingnutx

I like her more and more every time I see her.

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## Haruspex_Pariah

The more I think about it, the more I think that Idra might actually be acting naturally here.

Maybe Eglamore just assumed she'd be discreet, having anticipated exactly the reaction that the Annies are currently having.

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## NEO|Phyte

There is also the possibility that she is doing this intentionally to screw with everyone involved.

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## Kornaki

What's up with that lighting contraption in the entrance in only one panel?

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## wingnutx

She already got Jimmy Jims' ironwood moving.

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## Adaon Nightwind

I'm just glad for Eglamore. Guy deserves some happyness.

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## geoduck

> What's up with that lighting contraption in the entrance in only one panel?


Clearly it's a lighting robot joining the work party.

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## 137beth

As of this writing, the Gunnerkrigg site appears to be down (and not just for me.)

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## Max_Killjoy

It's back up. 

Frankly, I think "those guys" are going to get themselves killed.

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## Typewriter

So, two Annies became a thing in chapter 69 (nice) and we're now in chapter 76. Does anyone else feel surprised that it's still going on? I felt like it was the sort of plot point that would get resolved in no time at all but 10% of the story now involves there being two of her, and I still feel like it's barely been explored. That's not intended as a complaint - just something I noticed.




> It's back up. 
> 
> Frankly, I think "those guys" are going to get themselves killed.


I kind of hope so. I really want to see something start to happen with all of this - it feels like the court v forest movement has been slow lately.

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## 137beth

Court vs Forest has developed very slowly for pretty much the entire series, IMO.

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## Willie the Duck

> Court vs Forest has developed very slowly for pretty much the entire series, IMO.


I'm guessing that it is the ultimate or penultimate plot of the strip.

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## geoduck

I'm guessing the two Annies will be around at least until Loup gets the vial back.

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## KatsOfLoathing

Oh, boy. Annies about to come vent their problems to Kat. Probably without remembering to address the problems that Kat has been dealing with. 

Something tells me this conversation is going to be the one these three have been needing to have for a while now. Isn't going to be pretty, though.

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## Ibrinar

So over/under on them taking that thing a)going really wrong, b) somehow being part of coyotes plan?

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## geoduck

> So over/under on them taking that thing a)going really wrong, b) somehow being part of coyotes plan?


Those two options are not mutually exclusive.

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## Ibrinar

Didn't mean it as alternatives but that both can be true independently and not just as a packet.

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## Lizard Lord

The only things not part of Coyote's plans are things he deliberately avoided planning for because that would make things too boring and predictable.

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## random11

As much as I dislike "these guys", they are at least half right.

Annie (Annies?) is supposed to be a mediator, to see the flaws of both sides and not just obeying orders.
But despite all warnings she got so far from both sides about Loup, she seems determined to just hand over the objects without any idea what they are, or how they will impact the forest/court relations.

The court side is of course also wrong in thinking they can just renegotiate the terms, but it might still be a safer approach than having no terms at all.

It kind of reminds me of Walter Peck from Ghostbusters. 
No doubt the film portraits him as a villain of some sort, but when you actually listen to what he says, he does have a point...

----------


## Max_Killjoy

> As much as I dislike "these guys", they are at least half right.
> 
> Annie (Annies?) is supposed to be a mediator, to see the flaws of both sides and not just obeying orders.
> But despite all warnings she got so far from both sides about Loup, she seems determined to just hand over the objects without any idea what they are, or how they will impact the forest/court relations.
> 
> The court side is of course also wrong in thinking they can just renegotiate the terms, but it might still be a safer approach than having no terms at all.
> 
> It kind of reminds me of Walter Peck from Ghostbusters. 
> No doubt the film portraits him as a villain of some sort, but when you actually listen to what he says, he does have a point...


The problem with Peck is that he's so convinced he's right, that HE doesn't stop to listen or consider the risks of HIS actions.

----------


## random11

> The problem with Peck is that he's so convinced he's right, that HE doesn't stop to listen or consider the risks of HIS actions.


No argument here, this similarity to what's going on is exactly what reminded me of his character.
Both "villains" in the stories are arrogant and will likely cause damage by their actions, but at the same time, their actions are not based ONLY on arrogance.

The ghostbusters knowingly used their equipment the first time without really testing it (the memorable elevator scene), and while the storage unit was effective, it too was never tested or approved.
Peck acted this way because he was an a-hole, but also because he wasn't given the information with the proper approvals in time.

Annies intended to just give objects with unknown effect to someone who is clearly mad.
The Court is wrong to just dismiss them, but it's not wrong to be at least suspicious about the motives, wonder about the impact, and see if they can get something in return.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> I'm guessing that it is the ultimate or penultimate plot of the strip.


Given how everything is being presented, I'm leaning towards penultimate. Loup is certainly a threat, but between the whole Paz/Kat situation, the two Annies being awfully late in the game for this to be a final plotline, and also the Omega Device if we assume that was not the robot barrier (I'm not actually sure), this feels more like a big show to set in place the final major plotline.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

Hang on. Does the Court actually _have_ the authority to take the water from her? She's acting in her capacity as ambassador from the forest, working with elves, to retrieve something of Coyote's that's inside a giant tree. There's an argument to be made that it's on Court property, but it itself is not Court property, they couldn't retrieve it themselves, and as far as I know the Court getting any such thing isn't part of any agreement made with Annie, the Forest's representative. OTOH, maybe they do have that right from an older agreement...

Regardless, the whole thing was pulled off more like a Bavarian Fire Drill than a bureaucratic process, complete with comments about Annie's recent performance to keep the target off balance.

----------


## 137beth

My suspicion is that Coyote will come back before the final storyline.  Once he's back, the Court will probably see Coyote as a much more active threat than they did before, assuming they find out that Coyote planned for the creation of Loup.

----------


## geoduck

> My suspicion is that Coyote will come back before the final storyline.  Once he's back, the Court will probably see Coyote as a much more active threat than they did before, assuming they find out that Coyote planned for the creation of Loup.


I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Loup getting the water back also brings Coyote back.

----------


## Squire Doodad

There's coin flip odds of Loup staying alive, and better-than-even that Ysengrin will come out alive too.
Coyote has a 120% chance of coming back, _and that doesn't even make sense!_

----------


## random11

> Hang on. Does the Court actually _have_ the authority to take the water from her? She's acting in her capacity as ambassador from the forest, working with elves, to retrieve something of Coyote's that's inside a giant tree. There's an argument to be made that it's on Court property, but it itself is not Court property, they couldn't retrieve it themselves, and as far as I know the Court getting any such thing isn't part of any agreement made with Annie, the Forest's representative. OTOH, maybe they do have that right from an older agreement...
> 
> Regardless, the whole thing was pulled off more like a Bavarian Fire Drill than a bureaucratic process, complete with comments about Annie's recent performance to keep the target off balance.


Do they really care?
Don't forget that the higher-ups in the court see the forest as just animals.
They respect their strength (mainly because it can't be ignored), but have very little respect for things like arguing about "property rules" with them.

----------


## 137beth

The chapter 69 retrospective video is up.  That was the first chapter of volume 8, which AFAIK makes it the first retrospective for a chapter while the online pages for the same book are still running.

----------


## KatsOfLoathing

Today's comic:

Annie(s) dropping everything and running to help Kat once she finally gets an inkling of just how bad things have gotten is both very in-character for her and representative of a lot of personal growth, I think. 

Maybe this big discussion won't be as much of a blowout as I feared. Could always still go down that road, though.

----------


## Ibrinar

Ah so this is finally something that is too far for her world view^^

Anyway I honestly like the two Annie combo. Now I feel like reading a book where somebody teams up with their alternate self.

----------


## Zea mays

I also like the two Annie team. It would be sad, if and when, we go back to having only one Antimony.

Also, the Arbiter/translator said neither of the current Annies belong there. Is there a third one, and if she does materialize, would the new contract with Renard apply to her?

----------


## Haruspex_Pariah

Interesting development.

Maybe two Annies is the straw that broke Kat's back. She's been pretty chill about a lot of the crazy goings-on in the Court, and it's implied that she and Annie have experienced more off-panel. 

I think if it it were anything or anyone else, she'd write it off as something she can't explain yet. But Annie was for a long time her only friend. Not being able to explain it or fix it is probably killing her.

----------


## SZbNAhL

> Interesting development.
> 
> Maybe two Annies is the straw that broke Kat's back. She's been pretty chill about a lot of the crazy goings-on in the Court, and it's implied that she and Annie have experienced more off-panel. 
> 
> I think if it it were anything or anyone else, she'd write it off as something she can't explain yet. But Annie was for a long time her only friend. Not being able to explain it or fix it is probably killing her.


Kat was born and raised in the Court. That level of weirdness is her baseline.

----------


## eee

Zimmy was right, Kat's gears are grinding themselves down to powder trying to deal with two Annies.  It will be interesting to see how she tries to fix or deal with this.

----------


## 137beth

Does Kat still think one of the Annies is fake?

----------


## DeTess

> Does Kat still think one of the Annies is fake?


I don't think so. If she did, she'd have a plausible explanation for their existence. Having to accept both as real is a lot trickier.

----------


## Clertar

I guess it's "anime-style character explains their own character conflict" time.

----------


## 137beth

So...
Several years ago I recall reading some speculation on a forum (either this one or the Gunnerkrigg forum) that the Tiktoks (which seem like technology but which the Court robotics experts don't know the origins of)  will be created in the future by Kat, and then sent back in time to save Annie when she fell off the bridge.

I didn't think much of that speculation at the time, but it seems more relevant now with the latest page.

----------


## Kornaki

The point is that the AA in AA batteries stands for Annie Annie.

Not sure how it ties into the rest of the plot yet...

----------


## Ibrinar

> The point is that the AA in AA batteries stands for Annie Annie.
> 
> Not sure how it ties into the rest of the plot yet...


Simple my dear Kornaki, Kat will be using the two Annie's as power source for some gigantic bird robot and take over the world! That is the fate of all mad scientists! (You know I am really unsure what the world in the comic outside Court and Forest is like, just our normal world?)

----------


## wingnutx

Kat may end up as a sort of super-villain if she gets carried away.

----------


## DeTess

Okay, crackpot theory time. When that strange thing said that Neither Annie should be there, it wasn't referring to there being a third Annie somewhere. It meant hat the really Annie (should have) died a long time ago when she fell off that bridge, but then kat messed with the time-line to rescue her creating the first instance of time-line split Annie.

----------


## 137beth

> Okay, crackpot theory time. When that strange thing said that Neither Annie should be there, it wasn't referring to there being a third Annie somewhere. It meant hat the really Annie (should have) died a long time ago when she fell off that bridge, but then kat messed with the time-line to rescue her creating the first instance of time-line split Annie.


Someone has suggested that possibility before.

----------


## Blackdrop

It's starting to look like the thread title pun may have been a little more accurate than I had intended!

----------


## SZbNAhL

> It's starting to look like the thread title pun may have been a little more accurate than I had intended!


A time loup.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Ah so this is finally something that is too far for her world view^^
> 
> Anyway I honestly like the two Annie combo. Now I feel like reading a book where somebody teams up with their alternate self.


There's that College Humor video for Back to the Future, if you can find it.

----------


## Haruspex_Pariah

I suppose Kat's "bird phase" never really ended, huh? 

I'm glad that Tom finally addressed the mystery of the Tic-tocs, though time travel is one of those things that always gets me a little worried.

If Kat sent the birds back in time to save Annie, and the robots perceive them as being far older things, does that mean Kat can see all the way back in time? To the founding of the court and such?

----------


## Iruka

> If Kat sent the birds back in time to save Annie, and the robots perceive them as being far older things, does that mean Kat can see all the way back in time? To the founding of the court and such?


That's what I am beginning to suspect as well. "The Court grew from the seed Bismuth."

----------


## Willie the Duck

> If Kat sent the birds back in time to save Annie, and the robots perceive them as being far older things, does that mean Kat can see all the way back in time? To the founding of the court and such?





> That's what I am beginning to suspect as well. "The Court grew from the seed Bismuth."


Last chapter of the series -- they finally meet some grand architect or immortal keeper of the court or the like. It looks up, notices Kat. "Mommy?"

----------


## DeTess

> Okay, crackpot theory time. When that strange thing said that Neither Annie should be there, it wasn't referring to there being a third Annie somewhere. It meant hat the really Annie (should have) died a long time ago when she fell off that bridge, but then kat messed with the time-line to rescue her creating the first instance of time-line split Annie.


.... okay, guess I owe myself a cookie now XD

----------


## lord_khaine

.. yeah guess you did earn a cookie from that prediction :D

----------


## wingnutx

So she's assuaged her misgiving about making the tick-tock with the knowledge that it would be impossible to send it back in time, but here comes another impossible thing right out in the open.

----------


## Typewriter

> So she's assuaged her misgiving about making the tick-tock with the knowledge that it would be impossible to send it back in time, but here comes another impossible thing right out in the open.


Every time she's confronted with an impossibility she strives to understand it but in so doing finds a newer, bigger impossibility that she then has to strive to understand. This is the path that is going to lead her to being a deity - if she's not one already.

----------


## Narkis

I don't think Kat will invent time travel. Not really. Remember when Coyote gave that explanation about how human belief made it so he had always existed? I bet that's what will happen with the birds, only with robots' belief.

----------


## theKOT

> I don't think Kat will invent time travel. Not really. Remember when Coyote gave that explanation about how human belief made it so he had always existed? I bet that's what will happen with the birds, only with robots' belief.


I like this explanation because it would make things less messy, and less "nothing really matters because it can all be fixed via my time machine". Stakes are important.

----------


## Spojaz

> I like this explanation because it would make things less messy, and less "nothing really matters because it can all be fixed via my time machine". Stakes are important.


The way time travel works can make the difference. This one seems like "you can only do things with time travel that you already did" Which is the narratively superior one, because if something bad happens it stays happened. Unless we find out it really only looked like that, and the characters were being especially clever. Also, it means that any unexplained detail could be foreshadowing. Less back to the future, more Prisoner of Azkaban.

It's also much harder to write, but I think Tom is up to it.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> This one seems like "you can only do things with time travel that you already did" Which is the narratively superior one, because if something bad happens it stays happened. Unless we find out it really only looked like that, and the characters were being especially clever.



"Oh, it's so horrible that Zimmy died in the last adventure! Now I have to make a perfect Zimmy replica and send it back in time so that it's really it that died and we can find the real Zimmy hiding in a broom closet in 3...2...1..."  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Rodin

The immediate problem is "why were the Tic-Tocs made to begin with?"

Kat made them in this timeline because they saved Annie and she became curious about them.  She then sent them back in time to save Annie.  Classic bootstrap paradox, there's no *original* Tic-Tocs to kick the whole thing off.

One theory would be that Kat from a different timeline made the birds to try and resurrect Annie.  In that timeline Annie died and events played out very differently.  Kat never forgave herself for not being around to save her, so she put her energy into making the birds.

That caused a timeline fork into Universe B, and then Loup forked the timelines again to create Universe 1.

----------


## Kornaki

An alternative explanation is they know it was made by a divine being, and they just assume it was her.

----------


## hungrycrow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y8MezTFX0s

----------


## Max_Killjoy

I like taking these opportunities to chuckle at the discomfort of those who adhere to hard determinism.  

So what if there's a loop?  

And no, Kat, you're not "always" doing this, the linear progression of your own experience does not get stuck in some sort of loop because the tic-toc's causality is in a loop.

----------


## hungrycrow

> I like taking these opportunities to chuckle at the discomfort of those who adhere to hard determinism.  
> 
> So what if there's a loop?


If the loop works as described, it has no cause. If causality doesn't apply to this event, then it might not apply to other events.
Kat wants to investigate the principles in how things work. She can't reliably do that if things just happen for no reason.

----------


## Narkis

> If the loop works as described, it has no cause. If causality doesn't apply to this event, then it might not apply to other events.
> Kat wants to investigate the principles in how things work. She can't reliably do that if things just happen for no reason.


No, there absolutely is a cause. Cause and effect just don't follow a strict linear relation like in every other case. Hence the "loop" in "time loop".

----------


## Typewriter

I'm just waiting for Kat to exclaim that they're trapped in poorly written sci-fi. Not because I dislike it or anything - just because she has a grasp of the problems that exist in what is happening and I could see her losing it in that way.

----------


## Ibrinar

> The way time travel works can make the difference. This one seems like "you can only do things with time travel that you already did" Which is the narratively superior one, because if something bad happens it stays happened. Unless we find out it really only looked like that, and the characters were being especially clever. Also, it means that any unexplained detail could be foreshadowing. Less back to the future, more Prisoner of Azkaban.
> 
> It's also much harder to write, but I think Tom is up to it.


I am not fond of them, sure it avoids some strain on the narrative by preventing it from solving many things. But it is also so artificial, basically getting into fate territory. I suppose it would make some sense without basically fate if time travel only worked if the result was a stable loop but that would be so vanishingly rare that nobody would have ever figured out that it is possible at all so nobody would ever try it when it would work. Much more so if you don't arbitrarily limit the stable time loop nature to things important to humans, but include things like the placements of sand corns or gravel you walked over.

If time travel does work reliable but just happens to always end in stable time loops well that is where the fate like properties come in. If you can travel back in time there are obviously things you could deliberately do that would not conform to a time loop. So are your actions limited or guided in some specific way? Doesn't seem that way in most stories people act freely their actions just conveniently result in a stable time loop. Hence fate territory.

I suppose you could say if the result is not stable that slightly changes the circumstances of traveling back and that iterates until the result is stable. And since time is involved that happens instantly and the prior loops have never happened. But a fully stable time loop is a pretty big requirement I doubt every initial situation could resolve into one like that.

Well I just go along with it in stories of course and don't usually think much about it but still I don't find it aesthetically pleasing.

----------


## hungrycrow

> No, there absolutely is a cause. Cause and effect just don't follow a strict linear relation like in every other case. Hence the "loop" in "time loop".


Causality works within the loop, but the loop itself has no cause. Kat never came up with the idea, she just copied it from herself.
Why did she make the TicToks look like weird cyborg toucans instead of anything else? Why does she create the loop at all, instead of living in a timeline where Annie dies? No reason, the universe is just like that.

----------


## Narkis

> Causality works within the loop, but the loop itself has no cause. Kat never came up with the idea, she just copied it from herself.
> Why did she make the TicToks look like weird cyborg toucans instead of anything else? Why does she create the loop at all, instead of living in a timeline where Annie dies? No reason, the universe is just like that.


The tictocs saving Annie caused Kat to make the tictocs which caused them to save Annie. All perfectly consistent. Hence the loop. What caused the loop? Well, what causes linear time? Can you give an answer to the latter question that doesn't simultaneously answer the former?

And we know why they look like that: Kat thinks they're cute. She said it herself!

----------


## Typewriter

The worst part about time travel (among many bad parts) in media is when everyone decides to sit around debating it like they have something resembling a decent point. Time travel never works properly in stories but you can either accept that it's part of the story and go with the flow without worrying or you can try to rationalize it while arguing against everyone who points out the flaws in the rationale you found for yourself. Literally the only good point about time travel I've ever seen in any media is, in the movie Looper, when Bruce Willis tells JGL no to bother trying to figure things out with a diagram but to simply accept the situation they're in and decide what to do next.

----------


## 137beth

I am generally not a fan of dramas in which the characters directly involved in the conflict have access to a form of time travel that they can control.  It bothers me because I feel like there is never any finality to a conflict.  "If we don't succeed this time, the antagonists will accomplish something really bad!"  
"Oh, but if we fail, then eventually someone will time travel in from an alternate future and fix it.  Then someone else will time travel back and mess up whatever they accomplished...why do we care about the outcome of this next scene again?"

That doesn't mean I dislike all time travel in fiction.  I can usually tolerate it if it satisfies at least one of the following conditions:
a)The time travel mechanism is something no one can control (like a one-time magical accident).
b)The only people who _can_ control time travel is clearly not a part of the main conflict in any timeline.  A decent example of this IMO is Gore Vidal's _Visit to a Small Planet_ (1957) (or at least, the play: I haven't seen the movie).
c)There is little or no dramatic tension to begin with because the story is mainly a comedy (Hitchhiker's guide does this well).
d)The story is clearly a parody of another story with time travel (for example, StarKid Productions _A Very Potter Sequel_, or, somewhat less obviously, StarKid's _Firebringer_.)

I'm not sure yet if Gunnerkrigg Court is going to fall into categories (a), (b), or neither (in which case I probably won't like much of the remaining story.)

But despite all that, I still like the loop vs loup pun in the author comment today.

----------


## Typewriter

> snip


For me it's all about consistency. If they follow their own rules I don't care. I don't care if it's paradoxical, I don't care if it makes sense. I do care about those things when they try to take it seriously - if it's a plot gimmick then fine but if it's something you want to have taken seriously... ehh, it's going to fall apart under scrutiny. As far as GC goes I will say that I'm feeling (based off of these last couple pages) that I feel like the impact of time travel is far more important to these characters than it is to the overarching story that we're experiencing.

Kat tells Annie that she invents/invented time travel and Annie is just like, "Wow, cool, this requires no further worry or concern," while Kat is hung up on the specifics of it. They represent two different ideals - two ideals that the community is siding itself around right now. Some people are fixated on the specifics and "what does it mean" while others are just like, "Oh cool, part of the story."

I've said it before but I feel like GC is a lot like the show 'Lost' in a few ways - most specifically in regards to the way it frames "Man of Science, Man of Faith" type arguments. Jack was continually trying to justify, to find some rationale for the things that couldn't be explained, but every answer he found just led to more confusion and more questions. And opposing him we had John Locke who was continually there, simply willing to accept the impossible, to assume that things around him made sense by virtue of the fact that they couldn't be happening if they didn't somehow make sense. Where GC differs, in regards to this specific debate, however, is that in this situation our "Woman of Science, Woman of Faith" are not opposed to each other. They're actively working together to better each others understanding of the world around them.

----------


## Kornaki

Thinking about this some more, this is actually not a new concept.  Aren't coyote and co. created by the beliefs of humans, but those beliefs also somehow caused them to exist since before humans were around? I feel like this has come up in the comic.

----------


## eschmenk

> Also, the Arbiter/translator said neither of the current Annies belong there.


Would someone please remind me when this happened? Which chapter?

----------


## Kornaki

> Would someone please remind me when this happened? Which chapter?


https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2162

----------


## memnarch

> Thinking about this some more, this is actually not a new concept.  Aren't coyote and co. created by the beliefs of humans, but those beliefs also somehow caused them to exist since before humans were around? I feel like this has come up in the comic.


Indeed it has, almost eight years ago.

----------


## KatsOfLoathing

> Indeed it has, almost eight years ago.


A line from Jones on the very next page that seems appropriate for this discussion: "Can something exist _before_ it is created?"

Granted, that line was referring to mythological and myth-adjacent creatures like Coyote and Jones, but given that Kat seems to be gradually becoming something like a god by the sheer strength of the robots' belief in her, I think it warrants considering.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> A line from Jones on the very next page that seems appropriate for this discussion: "Can something exist _before_ it is created?"
> 
> Granted, that line was referring to mythological and myth-adjacent creatures like Coyote and Jones, but given that Kat seems to be gradually becoming something like a god by the sheer strength of the robots' belief in her, I think it warrants considering.


Kat for Big Bug Robot Thing, 2024.

----------


## Typewriter

> A line from Jones on the very next page that seems appropriate for this discussion: "Can something exist _before_ it is created?"
> 
> Granted, that line was referring to mythological and myth-adjacent creatures like Coyote and Jones, but given that Kat seems to be gradually becoming something like a god by the sheer strength of the robots' belief in her, I think it warrants considering.


We've already seen what Kat looks like in the ether - she becomes mythological at some point and that faith reverberates backwards. I don't see how it could mean anything else.

----------


## Ibrinar

Oh so a splitting world time model makes sense with the two Annie versions. 

Poor Kat seems to be taking this pretty hard. Excellent time for both extra Annies to disappear!

----------


## Squire Doodad

Kat is also missing the other possibility: it's a stable time loop, and eventually something happens that involves the bird being sent back, thus allowing it to save Annie. While it's arguably a paradox, it doesn't mean it's a malevolent one by nature.

That's not how this is going to go, of course, because that's a simple resolution that would let us dismiss all of it. This is clearly set up for something far more important, presumably the final, post-Loup setting.

----------


## sihnfahl

Well, it looks like Kat tripped over the reasoning that she couldn't fathom the previous page.

"If I don't figure out how to build the birds, the Annies will die."

Stable time loop, then.

----------


## wingnutx

Time for Zimmy!

----------


## Lizard Lord

I would like to point out that saying "you will never find anything" would only encourage any scientist worth their salt.

----------


## 137beth

Is Annie going to suggest that Kat ask Anthony for help with the tictocs?
EDIT: Or Kat's parents.

----------


## AdmiralCheez

My bet is on Kat's mom, personally. Although the wording was rather intentionally vague to hide any clues, so I could always be wrong.

----------


## 137beth

It's totally going to be Brinnie!

----------


## Squire Doodad

> It's totally going to be Brinnie!


Been a while since we saw her, eh? She's ripe for a comeback!

Well, Kat's mom was the right answer! Interesting that we can see she has aged.

----------


## 137beth

No, it can't be Kat's mom!  I already bet my life saving that it would be Jones, who is also Brinnie and Gamma's mother!

----------


## Ellen

> No, it can't be Kat's mom!  I already bet my life saving that it would be Jones, who is also Brinnie and Gamma's mother!


It's so obvious when hear someone say it.

I think the story was more than deliberately vague about Kat's mom. The singular "they" is supposed to be used for persons who prefer "they" or persons whose gender is unknown (usually, that means someone whose identity is unknown. In Gunnerkrigg, there are probably a fair number of characters where no one knows [or they do know but the answer is a bit difficult to put in human terms]). Using it for Kat's mom was deliberate concealment--unless she's also been split into two or more people (lab accident. Happens all the time. Just ask Mr. Hyde or any clone).

Or the Annie who said they was thinking of both Kat's parents and didn't notice the other Annie wasn't having _exactly_ the same thought as her after all.

----------


## Squire Doodad

I'm going to go with "neither Annie knew for certain what the other was thinking, so just to be safe, they was used".

----------


## 137beth

Hmm, will Anjia believe them when they tell her the truth?

----------


## sihnfahl

> Hmm, will Anjia believe them when they tell her the truth?


She's a scientist.  With proofs and evidence, she'll believe.

----------


## 137beth

Kat's expression in the last panel seems kind of...bored?

----------


## geoduck

> Kat's expression in the last panel seems kind of...bored?


No? Puzzled, not bored.

----------


## Haruspex_Pariah

I was going to say that I was surprised, but then I remembered that I am reading Gunnerkrigg Court.

What Anja says next might be really interesting.

*Spoiler*
Show

Kat: I discovered time travel. ANGST.
Kat's Mom: You discovered time travel. That's my girl!

----------


## Willie the Duck

Alright, so that leaves open a whole slew of things which need to be addressed.

*Spoiler: such as:*
Show

Why has time travel not been used to solve X, Y, or Z.

----------


## DeTess

> Alright, so that leaves open a whole slew of things which need to be addressed.
> 
> *Spoiler: such as:*
> Show
> 
> Why has time travel not been used to solve X, Y, or Z.


I suspect it's because
*Spoiler*
Show


time-travel can only be used when there's a stable time-loop in place. Which is kinda like saying 'time travel only works when it works' but somehow I suspect that in the big ball of timey-wimey wibbly-wobbly it actually checks out.

----------


## Zea mays

That convenient box of spare robot parts than Annie finds in the library in the first chapter... will we find out that Kat put it there for her?

----------


## 137beth

Oh Coyote, we seem to be moving towards the exact thing I was hoping WOULDN'T *Spoiler*
Show

happen:The protagonists having easy access to time travel.

----------


## PhantomFox

> Oh Coyote, we seem to be moving towards the exact thing I was hoping WOULDN'T *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> happen:The protagonists having easy access to time travel.


*Spoiler*
Show

Well, I'm going to wager that there ends up being a big difference between easy and practical.

----------


## BRC

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Well, I'm going to wager that there ends up being a big difference between easy and practical.


*Spoiler*
Show


I mean step 1 might be "First, find a situation in which you know time travel has already happened, and then just figure out what you were already going to have done!

----------


## Spacewolf

Looks like Brunhilde will finally get to play a role.

----------


## tyckspoon

> It's totally going to be Brinnie!


Have yourself an internet cookie.

----------


## 137beth

Wow, it really is Brinnie.  I am finally excited about Gunnerkrigg Court again.

----------


## eee

She's grown up well.   :Small Big Grin:

----------


## SZbNAhL

> She's grown up well.


Next page, this woman steps aside and Brinnie's there, still the same age. "What? I'm immortal. I age slowly".

----------


## sihnfahl

"Remain cool."

"Remain cool."

"Remain coo.... ANJA!"

Lovely art shift again.  From serene and stately to cartoonish "YAY!"

----------


## SZbNAhL

Reading over old chapters, I found this page, which I think may be the only reference to anybody outside the Court knowing about the supernatural (unless the Court runs The Russian Academy of Sciences in this universe).

----------


## Julian84

Today's comic, in which Kat remembers, "Oh, I'm Gay"  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## 137beth

Today's page, in which I remember "oh, yea, there are some people who think it is appropriate to aggressively hug someone you just met without asking them just because you know one of their relatives.

----------


## Shadow of the Sun

To be fair, Brinnie does just sort of seem like the person who's naturally a hugger.

----------


## Haruspex_Pariah

Other than a few school flashbacks, do we really know anything about Brinnie? Was there like a bonus book or comic that I missed?

----------


## Iruka

> Other than a few school flashbacks, do we really know anything about Brinnie? Was there like a bonus book or comic that I missed?


AFAIK, no. She has just been Chekhov's Valkyrie since that short appearance.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

> AFAIK, no. She has just been Chekhov's Valkyrie since that short appearance.


I can't find that first appearance.

----------


## memnarch

> I can't find that first appearance.


Here up until the Valknut 4 pages later.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

> Here up until the Valknut 4 pages later.


Thanks -- I remembered it involved when they were students, but couldn't recall the timing in the comic's publication history.

----------


## eee

THIS is interesting.  Brinnie apparently left the Court before 'that', and hasn't been back since.  No wonder Anja is so emotional.  Brinnie, as well.

----------


## 137beth

Brinnie made the same assumption about Annie's father as Coyote did.   Though she seems not to be a fan of Anthony.

----------


## SZbNAhL

> Brinnie made the same assumption about Annie's father as Coyote did.   Though she seems not to be a fan of Anthony.


I think it's more that she's not a fan of Surma dating Tony. Remember: she had a crush on him and he messed it up through his emotion processing issues.

----------


## Squire Doodad

Ayyyy, who said it was going to be Brinnie?

----------


## wingnutx

Crank the cattiness up to eleven!

----------


## eee

Embarrassed discomfiture, yes; but I would have thought Brinnie might have gone "AH!  THAT is why he did not respond to my overtures, he burned with silent passion for Surma!  So romantic!  And awkward."

In other news, mystery seeds are showing up in people's mailboxes.  Obviously, Ysengrin.

https://wtop.com/local/2020/07/virgi...il-from-china/

----------


## Vinyadan

> In other news, mystery seeds are showing up in people's mailboxes.  Obviously, Ysengrin.
> 
> https://wtop.com/local/2020/07/virgi...il-from-china/


There's actually a fairly mundane explanation for this: brushing. It's illegal, and consists of a seller placing fake orders on itself to increase its ranking on services like Ali Baba.

EDIT: A more complete explanation: https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshe...hing-about-it/

----------


## 137beth

> Embarrassed discomfiture, yes; but I would have thought Brinnie might have gone "AH!  THAT is why he did not respond to my overtures, he burned with silent passion for Surma!  So romantic!  And awkward."
> 
> In other news, mystery seeds are showing up in people's mailboxes.  Obviously, Ysengrin.
> 
> https://wtop.com/local/2020/07/virgi...il-from-china/


I prefer to think they are Audrey IIs :Small Tongue: 

Anyhow, Annies seem to know what the Norns are.

----------


## SZbNAhL

> I prefer to think they are Audrey IIs
> 
> Anyhow, Annies seem to know what the Norns are.


She's always been very into world mythology (see also: Chapter 2). Probably met a few Valkyries in Good Hope from stab victims or something.

----------


## eee

I wonder if Kat's thinking "Belldandy?  Urd?  Skuld?".  Lord knows, I am.

I'm still holding to hope in this episode we find out how it is that Eglamore can use the Valknut.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> She's always been very into world mythology (see also: Chapter 2). Probably met a few Valkyries in Good Hope from stab victims or something.


Valkyries are explicitly not psychopomps by Word of Tom.

----------


## 137beth

> I wonder if Kat's thinking "Belldandy?  Urd?  Skuld?".  Lord knows, I am.
> 
> I'm still holding to hope in this episode we find out how it is that Eglamore can use the Valknut.


Kat has historically been less knowledgeable about mythology than Annie, so what she knows about them might be limited to what is explained on-panel in the comic.

----------


## Shadow of the Sun

> Kat has historically been less knowledgeable about mythology than Annie, so what she knows about them might be limited to what is explained on-panel in the comic.


However, Kat has been shown to be quite knowledgable about pop culture and might have seen Ah! My Goddess.

----------


## eee

Oh.  Of COURSE a Norn would look like the person looking at them!  Present, past, and future.

Little Kat is incredibly adorable.

----------


## Ibrinar

Yeah neat variant. Also short hair is a good look for future Kat

----------


## wingnutx

> short hair is a good look for future Kat


Very much so.

----------


## Haruspex_Pariah

Nice touch with the speech balloons blocking their faces when it's the reader's POV.

And unsurprisingly given what we know of her interests, Kat makes the connection to Belldandy. Grats to those who called it.

----------


## Shadow of the Sun

Huzzah, I called it.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

It's refreshing to see characters who are aware of enough to immediately "get it" when they realize they're all seeing something different, instead of once again having a stupid argument over it.

----------


## eee

I'm kind of surprised it took Kat this long to think "Oh My Goddess", but perhaps she isn't a fan.

I'm glad Verdandi is cool with it.  I wonder how Urd and Skuld liked their comic versions.

----------


## 137beth

> Huzzah, I called it.


Good call, you win three cookies that show how a cookie looks in the past, present, and future!

----------


## Rodin

> Good call, you win three cookies that show how a cookie looks in the past, present, and future!


Ewww, yum, and Ewww?

----------


## DeTess

> Ewww, yum, and Ewww?


Cookie dough is tasty! But agreed on the last one XD

----------


## Willie the Duck

...annnd stable time loops confirmed.

----------


## Kornaki

Not that stable though, since Kat is younger than she usually is when she shows up.  Unless that means she's going to be going back here again later in life.

----------


## Typewriter

> Not that stable though, since Kat is younger than she usually is when she shows up.  Unless that means she's going to be going back here again later in life.


I'd imagine that they don't see the flow of time in the same 'way' that others do so this, being the first time she meets them, means that it's the youngest they've ever seen her.

----------


## Vinyadan

So, if I understand correctly, Annie's Dad is actually Chuck Goodrich, sent back in time to avoid a catastrophe by resurrecting Surma and helping creating a robo-army?

----------


## Yuki Akuma

Anthony Carver isn't _nearly_ rad enough to be a Chuck Goodrich.

----------


## Shadow of the Sun

I really like this take on the Norns.

Props to Tom for making it reasonably fresh.

----------


## eee

I really want to pick little Kat up and hug her...

----------


## 137beth

Okay, so Kat has some control over the time travel.  Which is exactly what I was hoping wouldn't happen.

----------


## wingnutx

Deus ex something something

----------


## 137beth

So there is a catch.  Or, a "task," anyhow.

----------


## sihnfahl

> So there is a catch.  Or, a "task," anyhow.


Well, if the bird(s) were just to save Annie... then they'd all not be seen until the moment she fell off the bridge.

That the bird(s) were seen all over the Court, watching... well.  Something else happened in the future to change from 'save Annie' to 'observe the Court'.

----------


## slayerx

Y'know this arc feels a little directionless to me. What exactly is Kat trying to do here? I mean Kat didn't build the bird with the inention of using it to change the past. She didn't seek out the Norns because she wanted to change something, but because she wanted to resolve the feelings she got when she found out she did it before. So the norns gave her control of the time stream so she could send the bird to the past and... do what exactly? Kat never actually mentioned their was something she wanted to change... Sure there is the current problem of the two Annies, but Kat hasn't really highlighted how sending her bird into the past would fix their problem. It feels like Kat's just messing with the time stream because she can. Really feels like there should have been a moment where Kat actually considers what she's been given the chance to do and decides on what she wants to change

----------


## sihnfahl

> I mean Kat didn't build the bird with the intention of using it to change the past.


An alternate future version of herself did, though, and she's now in a loop where she's sending it back to fulfill what that other-future Kat wanted to change.  Namely, Annie dying when she fell off the bridge.

If she didn't, then Annie would have died, and she'd be heading into that original future where she built the birds to keep Annie from dying.  And she'd find out what it really would be like to lose Annie.  (Except for the timeline where she DID, so yay, another timeline branch)

As for the dual Annie problem, that's going to be even crazier since both are teens ... which means that they're both from post-Annie-Rescue-By-Katbird timelines.

----------


## sihnfahl

And it looks like Kat is learning something about 'free agency is an illusion'.

Decisions made in the future are driving the present, in order to get to the action in the present to change the past.

----------


## 137beth

I'm guessing she'll stop using it for now when she has had the bird do everything she knows about it doing.  Then, whenever she learns about another thing the bird did, she'll contact the Norns again.

----------


## memnarch

Current page seen for reference.

----------


## sihnfahl

> I'm guessing she'll stop using it for now when she has had the bird do everything she knows about it doing.  Then, whenever she learns about another thing the bird did, she'll contact the Norns again.


Well, naturally.  She can only do the things that have already been done.  She can't do what hasn't happened yet.  Otherwise, causality is violated.

----------


## Clertar

Getting a mix of Avengers:Endgame and Ender's Shadow vibes from this chapter.

----------


## slayerx

> An alternate future version of herself did, though, and she's now in a loop where she's sending it back to fulfill what that other-future Kat wanted to change.  Namely, Annie dying when she fell off the bridge.
> 
> If she didn't, then Annie would have died, and she'd be heading into that original future where she built the birds to keep Annie from dying.  And she'd find out what it really would be like to lose Annie.  (Except for the timeline where she DID, so yay, another timeline branch)
> 
> As for the dual Annie problem, that's going to be even crazier since both are teens ... which means that they're both from post-Annie-Rescue-By-Katbird timelines.





> Well, naturally. She can only do the things that have already been done. She can't do what hasn't happened yet. Otherwise, causality is violated.


Here's the thing though, what bothers me in THAT case, is that having multiple timelines generally BREAKS the possibility for Paradox's and time loops. Being able to alter the past and create a new timeline means that no one has to do anything, and there is no chance of breaking causality because anything that would cause a paradox would instead create a new timeline. Dealing with multiple timelines, is more like dealing with multiple dimensions that can interfere with each other.  The original Kat lived in a timeline where annie died after she fell off the bridge, and that what led her to make the original bird, meet the Norns and mess with time to save Annie; this in turn created a timeline/universe we see where Annie never died. Original Kat did something in the past that did not happen in her own timeline. Our Kat shouldn't need to repeat what original Kat did because the "annie doesn't die" timeline already exists thanks to original kat

For instance, Kat is sending her bird into the past and is creating each and every instance of when the bird appeared in the story; however according to the Norns when kat herself visits the norns in order to do any of this is not always the same... so like timeline requires that these events with the birds are written in stone and Kat herself has to perform them, but the timeline does NOT require Kat to visit the norns at any specific time and place, and say or do the same things. It doesn't really quite add up

Not to mention there were actually FIVE birds present when Annie was saved, and it only took 2 to carry her... so now would come the question of where those other 4 birds are coming from. Will kat send all of those birds, or are their other birds from other kats? And if those other birds are being sent by other kats, then that means that our Kat didn't need to do it, because her not doing it doesn't stop the other kats from doing it.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Not to mention there were actually FIVE birds present when Annie was saved, and it only took 2 to carry her... so now would come the question of where those other 4 birds are coming from. Will kat send all of those birds, or are their other birds from other kats? And if those other birds are being sent by other kats, then that means that our Kat didn't need to do it, because her not doing it doesn't stop the other kats from doing it.


No, our Kat will do it because she will probably come to the conclusion that the second bird is needed to help Annie because two birds helped Annie, so she looped another bird into the same time.

The other three were her trying to dial in the right time to intercept Annie's fall - and missed.

----------


## 137beth

I hope we finally get the answer as to why Ys buried the TikToc (or it was really Coyote who did it).

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Not to mention there were actually FIVE birds present when Annie was saved, and it only took 2 to carry her... so now would come the question of where those other 4 birds are coming from. Will kat send all of those birds, or are their other birds from other kats? And if those other birds are being sent by other kats, then that means that our Kat didn't need to do it, because her not doing it doesn't stop the other kats from doing it.


Or could they all be the same bird? Do we know she can't do that?

----------


## sihnfahl

> Or could they all be the same bird? Do we know she can't do that?


Kat already came to the conclusion they're all the same bird.

So the narrative conclusion is - she already did, so she can and will.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Kat already came to the conclusion they're all the same bird.
> 
> So the narrative conclusion is - she already did, so she can and will.


Oh, right. So that's where I got that impression.

----------


## Rodin

> Here's the thing though, what bothers me in THAT case, is that having multiple timelines generally BREAKS the possibility for Paradox's and time loops. Being able to alter the past and create a new timeline means that no one has to do anything, and there is no chance of breaking causality because anything that would cause a paradox would instead create a new timeline. Dealing with multiple timelines, is more like dealing with multiple dimensions that can interfere with each other.  The original Kat lived in a timeline where annie died after she fell off the bridge, and that what led her to make the original bird, meet the Norns and mess with time to save Annie; this in turn created a timeline/universe we see where Annie never died. Original Kat did something in the past that did not happen in her own timeline. Our Kat shouldn't need to repeat what original Kat did because the "annie doesn't die" timeline already exists thanks to original kat
> 
> For instance, Kat is sending her bird into the past and is creating each and every instance of when the bird appeared in the story; however according to the Norns when kat herself visits the norns in order to do any of this is not always the same... so like timeline requires that these events with the birds are written in stone and Kat herself has to perform them, but the timeline does NOT require Kat to visit the norns at any specific time and place, and say or do the same things. It doesn't really quite add up


I just Re-read where Kat explains the bird, and I think I've got it.

Kat knows that if she does nothing, everything will be fine.  Everything you said above applies - Annie survives in this timeline no matter what. 

_However._

The original Kat created the bird because she was so sad that she broke time in order to save Annie.  If our Kat does not send the bird back, that will create another Kat who loses Annie.  The loop goes infinitely, and every time Kat doesn't send the bird back another version of herself becomes incredibly sad.  Another version of Annie dies.  

Kat has to maintain the loop or create infinite suffering across the multi-verse.  I'm not saying this is accurate, but it appears to be what Kat believes.

----------


## Mith

Here's a weird thought I had on this re read: instead of parallel universe + time loop series (which invalidate each other), Court Annie is Annie from the "start of the loop" saved prior to actual death and placed in the current timeline.

You still have Annie being absent from a timeline, but it is a time line that she would die immediately if she returned to it.  Kat's thought process of the devastation on missing her friend if she died/disappeared (as noted from both revelation of Annie being phased in from a different reality) are both the same "timeline".

I believe this is a bit muddled from the fact that I believe that "both" Annies are pointed out as being "out of phase", but that could mean that the method of a seamless shift like this (complete memories) cause a distortion.

Eh, it may not stand up to scrutiny.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

Why do parallel universes and time loops invalidate each other?

----------


## Max_Killjoy

This setting clearly has mythical magic, should we just be assuming that the hypothetical physics / logic of time travel even apply?

----------


## Mith

> Why do parallel universes and time loops invalidate each other?


I guess it doesn't so much as I see it, you never experience the success of your meddling with the past.  If you send a probe back in time to prevent the death of a friend, you still live out the rest of your life with your friend haven't died, but you have created an alternative dimension (and all preceding ones from that decision) to have the effect.

So I guess it doesn't invalidate it.  It just means that you yourself never benefit from the action.

As for should we apply this sort of reasoning to Gunnerkrigg Court specifically: Well the ether is basically Dream Logic Manifest, so probably not.

----------


## Typewriter

> This setting clearly has mythical magic, should we just be assuming that the hypothetical physics / logic of time travel even apply?


Exactly. There's every possibility that the flow of time as we 'expect' it to be doesn't even exist. Perhaps the reason Kat saved Annie is because she did - maybe what we are interpreting as a 'loop' is simply a fixed point in reality that has no beginning or end. Most importantly it probably doesn't matter - the story is going to explain things however it feels like doing and everyone's personal opinion on how time travel 'should' work isn't really going to matter.

----------


## Kornaki

*Spoiler*
Show

I don't know. We've seen multiple of them carrying her together. They didn't seem separated in time by a second to me.

I wonder if this is going to fail, and she's going to have to go build more birds.

----------


## slayerx

Feel free to ignore my time travel ranting if you don't want to share my headache

*Spoiler*
Show





> I just Re-read where Kat explains the bird, and I think I've got it.
> 
> Kat knows that if she does nothing, everything will be fine.  Everything you said above applies - Annie survives in this timeline no matter what. 
> 
> _However._
> 
> The original Kat created the bird because she was so sad that she broke time in order to save Annie.  If our Kat does not send the bird back, that will create another Kat who loses Annie.  The loop goes infinitely, and every time Kat doesn't send the bird back another version of herself becomes incredibly sad.  Another version of Annie dies.  
> 
> Kat has to maintain the loop or create infinite suffering across the multi-verse.  I'm not saying this is accurate, but it appears to be what Kat believes.


I can't really buy that... I mean Kat's not just trying to repeat what the other Kat did, she's actually creating every known instance of the bird's appearing in the comic, including the ones she wouldn't even know about (like the instances of the bird appearing before Zimmy, which Kat treats as unintentional). The comic here is implying that Annie was not saved by an alternate Kat that lost Annie, but by OUR Kat

Here Kat is not effecting and creating an alternate timeline, but is instead effecting her own timeline. But we were told that's not how things worked for the Other Kat that lost Annie... losing Annie is what led that Kat to seek out the norns and send the birds to save her, but if Kat could effect her own timeline like our Kat can, then she would be living in a timeline where Annie never died, just like our Kat and would have never experienced what it was like to lose Annie. 

The thing about time loops is that there is no real beginning to the loop. "Event A" happens because "Event B" happened, and "Event B" happened because "Event A" happened. One can not happen without the other. In a time loop situation there shouldn't even really be a "first Kat" or multiple other kats, there would just be our kat. 




> Why do parallel universes and time loops invalidate each other?


They are pretty much two different solutions to the same problem, which is solving for time travel paradoxes. With a timeloop, everything that happens is part of the same timeline, which is why the time loop exists; "Event A" happens because you went back in time to make it happen and its not possible for you to NOT make it happen because that would break casuality. However if your time travel rules state that changing the past creates an alternate timeline, then that in turn breaks the time loop. Going back in time to create "Event A" does not change YOUR timeline, it creates a new timeline where "Event A" happens, and since "Event A" already happened, there's no incentive or reason for the people of that timeline to go back in time and make "Event A" happen. You can't really create a loop, if your changes create a new timeline that you yourself are separate from



And this is why introducing time travel to a story can be such a mess





> This setting clearly has mythical magic, should we just be assuming that the hypothetical physics / logic of time travel even apply?


Even if a story has a mythical magic system, there should still be internal consistency within the story about how the magic works. It doesn't have to follow OUR logic, but it should have to follow its own internal logic... If a character does "A" and gets result "B", then anyone in the story that also does "A" should get result "B". 

If one kat messing with time creates an alternate timeline, then our kat doing the same should also result in an alternate timeline. If our Kat can not change time and can only repeat what's already been done (time loop), then that means that no other Kat's should be able to change their timelines either

----------


## sihnfahl

> If one kat messing with time creates an alternate timeline, then our kat doing the same should also result in an alternate timeline. If our Kat can not change time and can only repeat what's already been done (time loop), then that means that no other Kat's should be able to change their timelines either


Until you get into that free agency idea.

Our Kat created the bird and sent it through time because another Kat created the bird and sent it through time.

Because our Kat figured out that Kat created the bird and sent it back in time, she believed she -had to- create the bird and send it through time to fulfill the loop that she believes exists.  Even though it's possible it's not a loop, and a divergent universe.

She didn't do it because she absolutely had to; she did it because she believed she had to.

And her belief made reality, while reality led her to her belief.

----------


## eee

Oh, THAT'S what broke the Tic-Toc!

----------


## Haruspex_Pariah

Dang, it never occurred to me that after the "all one bird" thing was revealed that it actually matters what damaged the one that fell on the banks.

And, uh, I was absent for a while so pardon me if this was already covered, but if Kat sent the bird back using the Norn's magic time pool, doesn't that mean that she didn't actually invent or discover time travel? Which isn't how I expected this to go.

----------


## sihnfahl

> if Kat sent the bird back using the Norn's magic time pool, doesn't that mean that she didn't actually invent or discover time travel? Which isn't how I expected this to go.


That would be right.

She initially assumed she did because she didn't know about the Norns.

"I built this bird sometime in the future.  Or is that supposed to be: I will build this bird sometime in the future?  It came back in time.  Therefore, I figured out how to send things through time."

----------


## Squire Doodad

Hm, if Coyote's tooth can cut through the earth, how does Coyote's claw fare?

----------


## Haruspex_Pariah

"a higher power than ours"

I guess the bird wasn't looking in Coyote's direction, or he was too far away, else Annie would have recognized him. The one panel with just Coyote in it doesn't have the thick corners, so it seems like a reasonable assumption.

----------


## JavaScribe

So it looks like this Kat is responsible for every sighting of the bird that the main characters have ever seen. But the only robot for it to make any appearance in front of was Seraph-13, who would have been too distracted to notice. Why would the court robots be aware of them for a long time and consider them a "mythical orthnithonic"? Is she going to make a second bird?

----------


## Mith

> So it looks like this Kat is responsible for every sighting of the bird that the main characters have ever seen. But the only robot for it to make any appearance in front of was Seraph-13, who would have been too distracted to notice. Why would the court robots be aware of them for a long time and consider them a "mythical orthnithonic"? Is she going to make a second bird?


Huh.  It would have made more sense if she had other issues with hopping around either before or right after trying to get away from Zimmy.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

At the beginning of this Norns sequence, didn't they mention that she "usually" brings a remote to control the bird? This might not be the only time she does so. (Or it could be the only time, and the Norns are just viewing time wierdly).

----------


## Haruspex_Pariah

I think we're supposed to infer that Kat will visit the Norns, multiple times, in the future for the purpose of sending more birds back. Even if a robot did spot the bird when it guided Kat's parents, I don't think that was far enough in the past for it to become a mythical thing.

If so, the question is why?

Maybe Kat is trying to learn about something that happened in the past of the Court. Or maybe she's trying to change something? Since the robots spotted the birds in the past, maybe she's...closing the loops?

Or some time in the future Kat will go off the deep end and start messing with time, fully embracing her Angel status.

----------


## Nettlekid

What was the point of this chapter, or anything about the bird? I don't see why "Kat created the bird, and therefore we have to justify how it was there in the past" progressed the story at all. It's one of those things that doesn't at all feel like it was planned for and built up, it was added in as a plot point later and this is "fixing" a plot hole that that development causes, but I don't see what value the development added in the first place. I was expecting the Norns to be able to shed some light on the timelines that these two Annies came from and where the original Annie went, but somehow that's not time-related and so they can't.

----------


## Haruspex_Pariah

> What was the point of this chapter, or anything about the bird? I don't see why "Kat created the bird, and therefore we have to justify how it was there in the past" progressed the story at all. It's one of those things that doesn't at all feel like it was planned for and built up, it was added in as a plot point later and this is "fixing" a plot hole that that development causes, but I don't see what value the development added in the first place. I was expecting the Norns to be able to shed some light on the timelines that these two Annies came from and where the original Annie went, but somehow that's not time-related and so they can't.


Kat meeting the Norse goddesses of fate, finding out that they know her from the future, and borrowing their time pool is not a significant development?

I get that the two Annies thing has been going on for almost two years, but this is just how Gunnerkrigg Court rolls. *Ten years* passed between Jeanne's introduction and the resolution of her plot.

----------


## 137beth

End of the chapter and we still have no idea why Ys burred the bird.

----------


## Nettlekid

> Kat meeting the Norse goddesses of fate, finding out that they know her from the future, and borrowing their time pool is not a significant development?
> 
> I get that the two Annies thing has been going on for almost two years, but this is just how Gunnerkrigg Court rolls. *Ten years* passed between Jeanne's introduction and the resolution of her plot.


I mean...no, it's not. Not unless this is the first step toward building something else to which the pool is significant, such as restoring Coyote from the past or something. It's certainly a "Big Deal" but it doesn't reflect any significant development of the plot. The birds being mechanical wasn't a mystery that needed solving until it was revealed that Kat was the one who built them, and that was only revealed as the setup to introduce this time pool, which (so far) was only introduced to close the plot hole of Kat being the one who invented the birds! The whole thing didn't need to happen.

----------


## Haruspex_Pariah

> I mean...no, it's not. Not unless this is the first step toward building something else to which the pool is significant, such as restoring Coyote from the past or something.


Well, there's the problem. In my understanding of the comic, Tom will randomly add elements like this and then leave things hanging while he abruptly jumps to something else. He'll resolve the hanging thread at some unspecified time, if ever. I'm perfectly cool with that. I don't think it's "bad" in any real sense, since IMHO the story runs on that sense of mystery and sudden twists.

And there's certainly a place for "nothing" or breather chapters, I think. But then I watch a lot of anime, where filler comes with the territory.

----------


## slayerx

> So it looks like this Kat is responsible for every sighting of the bird that the main characters have ever seen. But the only robot for it to make any appearance in front of was Seraph-13, who would have been too distracted to notice. Why would the court robots be aware of them for a long time and consider them a "mythical orthnithonic"? Is she going to make a second bird?


Ya that's one thing that's seriously missing from this. I actually was expecting her to send the bird back in time to see the seed bismuth; That would have dated the bird's first sighting to before the court. Add in some more cases of Kat spying on the past and you will get multiple sightings of the birds through history that would lead to the robots creating a mythology around them. Heck if Kat was using the birds to spy on important events then that would only make them seem even MORE mythical since they end up being sighted anytime something important happens. 




> What was the point of this chapter, or anything about the bird? I don't see why "Kat created the bird, and therefore we have to justify how it was there in the past" progressed the story at all. It's one of those things that doesn't at all feel like it was planned for and built up, it was added in as a plot point later and this is "fixing" a plot hole that that development causes, but I don't see what value the development added in the first place. I was expecting the Norns to be able to shed some light on the timelines that these two Annies came from and where the original Annie went, but somehow that's not time-related and so they can't.


Ya i kind of feel the same way... I mean the story makes for a somewhat interesting anecdote, but i was kind of expecting something more significant out of the birds than "Kat really cares about Annie". I also stand by my earlier annoyance with how these time travel shenanigans have played out as i feel like the time loop and alternate timelines lack an internal logic ajust don't make a whole lot of sense... 

One thing that bugs me is just how simple it all was because the Norns just GIVE Kat the chance to change the past. Kat didn't even have to give them a compelling reason since they just associate her with the previous Kats... there are TONS of people who would love the chance to change the past to save a loved one, so i think that alone ends up feeling like a weak reason for the Norns to help Kat in particular. Anja even points out how many people spent their whole lives trying to find a way to change the past; turns out they just didn't have the norn's phone number. I just feel like it would have been WAY more compelling if future Kat actually figured out how to alter time herself. THAT i think would have added a lot more weight to the birds


Frankly i feel like what would have been a more satisfying development and made more sense is if future Kat had figured out how to mess with time herself. The first Kat did it to save annie, but other kats figured it out after they figure out what the first Kat did and end up using that power for other reasons(maybe our kat would try to figure it out to help fix the two annie problem). The birds seen in the court end up being different instances of a Kat looking into the past. The Kats would spy on the history of the court and inadvertently create a mythology around the bird. This even could even play into the already existing subplot of Kat possibly becoming divine. A very big and possibly scary future for Kat

----------


## AdmiralCheez

I think the biggest problem with this chapter that people seem to be having is that it lacks conflict. Like, they set a goal to send the bird back in time, then someone gives them the way to do it, and then they do it. They don't have to figure anything out, or overcome any obstacles, they just... do it.

It lacks one of the primary components of storytelling, conflict, so that's why it feels weird to me. It's definitely a unique approach for the chapter and I wonder how it'll fit in in the overall story.

----------


## Typewriter

I think the entire point of this story is just to show Kats growth. She's on the path to being a deity and every now and then we do a check in to see how she's handling things she can't control or understand. In this chapter we saw her take a bit of knowledge that she couldn't understand and seek a path to accepting it (even though she still couldn't understand it). The resolution of the story is not some resolution of a major conflict - it's showing the depths that Kat is capable of going to in order to save her friend. It's another step along her journey.

----------


## eee

I'm hoping there's not going to be a big "But-" here leading to breakup.

----------


## Lateral

> I'm hoping there's not going to be a big "But-" here leading to breakup.


This is exactly the vibe I've been getting from this whole chapter.

----------


## 137beth

And if it does end in a break-up, I hope the result isn't Paz hating the Annies for "taking Kat away from her."

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

> This is exactly the vibe I've been getting from this whole chapter.


Really? I'm not getting that impression at all. If one of them _is_ planning to break up, they're remarkably happy about it, since it's been mostly smiles and hand-holding from the two of them.

----------


## eee

And no break up.  Thank goodness.  But maybe a pirate ship attack.

----------


## eee

OK, that's uh... that's uhhhh....

Really pretty darned ominous.

----------


## 137beth

Last we heard the court was "done" with Zimmy.

----------


## wingnutx

Yay, Zimmy's back!

----------


## Ibrinar

And tired judging by the nice big jawn!

----------


## Clertar

{scrubbed}

----------


## Willie the Duck

> {scrub the post, scrub the quote}


No, she just walked into a store for the first time this month and realized that it is wall-to-wall Christmas decorations. :Small Tongue:

----------


## wingnutx

I had forgotten that Gunnerkrigg Court made an appearance in Girl Genius.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

> I had forgotten that Gunnerkrigg Court made an appearance in Girl Genius.


Same page has Buck Gadot, The Devil's Panties, Home on the Strange, Dominic Deagan, and Wapsi Square.  

Next page has Questionable Content, Freefall, and Shortpacked.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Same page has Buck Gadot, The Devil's Panties, Home on the Strange, Dominic Deagan, and Wapsi Square.  
> 
> Next page has Questionable Content, Freefall, and Shortpacked.


Next page also has Order of the Stick, and I have no idea how you missed that.  :Small Tongue: 

Also Bob the Angry Flower.

----------


## Iruka

> Next page also has Order of the Stick, and I have no idea how you missed that. 
> 
> Also Bob the Angry Flower.


I would assume all of them are webcomics. Digger, Girls with Slingshots and Something Positive are also here.

----------


## 137beth

*Spoiler: Today's page*
Show

So is this Court Annie disguising herself as Forest Annie to try to connect with Anthony?

----------


## Rodin

> I would assume all of them are webcomics. Digger, Girls with Slingshots and Something Positive are also here.


One I never noticed before is "read Arcane Times", which turns out to be Cheyenne Wright's artist page.


*Spoiler: Today's page*
Show

And failing miserably.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## 137beth

Weather reading...something connected to Zimmy?

----------


## wingnutx

Tony is such a ****.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Tony is such a ****.


Honestly at this point I think it's more likely that 'Tony has severe social anxiety and has no idea how to deal'.

He actually seems to be _trying_ in these past two pages, but just cannot get over whatever it is about Court Annie that makes her hard for him to be around without freaking out.

----------


## theKOT

> Honestly at this point I think it's more likely that 'Tony has severe social anxiety and has no idea how to deal'.
> 
> He actually seems to be _trying_ in these past two pages, but just cannot get over whatever it is about Court Annie that makes her hard for him to be around without freaking out.


Don't forget this is the man who abandoned her and then returned only to be monstrous. He's been a consistently terrible father even if you cut him a ton of slack for circumstances.

----------


## SZbNAhL

> Don't forget this is the man who abandoned her and then returned only to be monstrous. He's been a consistently terrible father even if you cut him a ton of slack for circumstances.


Yes, he knows he's a terrible father. That's why he "abandoned" her (read: sent her to live with his close trusted friends who he knew would do a much better job of raising her and where she was very happy) while he went off to dedicate his life to keep her from dying if she had a child. This in turn is because he lacks the ability to form proper emotional connections*, which really isn't his fault.

*I'm guessing severe autism, but this being GK there's probably some much more fantastical explanation.

----------


## Rodin

The development of Tony and Annie's relationship has been my favorite part of GC for a while now.  It ignores the easy trope of Tony being a horrible abusive father because he's a bad person.   Neither has it tried to sugarcoat things - what Tony did was awful and the story has pulled no punches.  It also ignores the "sudden revelation, now everything is cool" plot that most media employs.  Their relationship is deeply broken and has damaged both Tony and Annie to the point they cannot interact anymore - even if both of them are aware the other is trying.

Adding an extra Annie has been an interesting twist on it.  Tony doesn't think of Forest Annie as "his" Annie, and as such is able to have a much more normal relationship with her.  Which only twists the knife deeper into Court Annie...

----------


## Max_Killjoy

Tony was so awful on his return that I stopped reading the comic for several months, and had to be talked into going back.

----------


## hungrycrow

It's good to have a bad character be complicated and not change immediately in one story arc. But sometimes it seems like the characters are acting like Tony's problem is being closed off and awkward, rather than being abusive and neglectful. Like, Kat became friends with him without any issue. She punched a death god for Annie but was willing to look past what Tony did?

----------


## theKOT

> Yes, he knows he's a terrible father. That's why he "abandoned" her (read: sent her to live with his close trusted friends who he knew would do a much better job of raising her and where she was very happy) while he went off to dedicate his life to keep her from dying if she had a child. This in turn is because he lacks the ability to form proper emotional connections*, which really isn't his fault.
> 
> *I'm guessing severe autism, but this being GK there's probably some much more fantastical explanation.


... while she felt unloved and abandoned because he never explained anything to her and she was just a child?
When he returned and immediately shamed and disciplined her?
When he has not once that we've seen tried to explain this to her in any detail?

Don't get me wrong, I see the factors that make this less egregious, but he's still accountable for his actions and severely in the negative here. As someone else has said, many characters/the plot just shrugging this off only makes things seem worse because of the dissonance.

Slightly aside, I didn't get the impression from anywhere that he left to try to help annie. He felt he couldn't face her after Surma died and then was researching for the court then went to find the psychopomps and thought he could reach Surma through the antenna. He doesn't mention trying to help her. Even Donnie says "what you just saw doesn't excuse anything he did".

----------


## eee

Nope. nope, this is not ominous, unsettling, and scary IN THE SLIGHTEST!

God, I hope Gamma's all right.

----------


## Typewriter

> Don't get me wrong, I see the factors that make this less egregious, but he's still accountable for his actions and severely in the negative here. As someone else has said, many characters/the plot just shrugging this off only makes things seem worse because of the dissonance.


I actually like Tony but I want to say that for myself (and I think others that like him) it's not about his actions being less egregious so much as it is about accepting those mistakes and moving on. If you only ever saw me at my worst you'd think I was scum. Most people, at some point in their lives, make horrible decisions and/or lash out at those who they love and care for. That's not a good thing but it's also not an individuals entire existence. It's not the entirety of 'who they are.' Tony is a **** father whose made some horrible mistakes. I think he knows that - his friends and family certainly know that. What would be the gain in just ****ting on him? Try to force him to make amends for things he's done when he seems literally incapable of doing so? He's not happy that he's broken - he simply is.

----------


## Lizard Lord

Is....is Zimmy somehow inside Loup?

----------


## Kornaki

I think this is related to her being tormented by the birds.

----------


## eee

That was short.  And confusing.  And ominous.

----------


## Ellen

Just noticing:

Gamma is the third letter of the Greek alphabet.

Zimmy's real name, Zeta, is also a letter in the Greek alphabet, the sixth (don't know that the number matters but just thought I'd include the details).

Omega is often used to symbolize the end because it is the last letter of the Greek alphabet.

Don't know what it means, but Zimmy went from calling one name, Gamma, to saying the other as if she recognized it. It may be that she's just aware of what Loup said. But, maybe Omega is something alive (or close to it) that Zimmy, being Zimmy is aware of.

----------


## Narkis

Isn't Omega the name of the Court project to control the aether?

And I can't believe I didn't catch the connection between Gamma, Zeta, and Omega. I'm Greek for pete's sake!

----------


## 137beth

The "Omega Device" was first mentioned in Chapter 53 by Tony.

----------


## wingnutx

Site is down nevermind, it's back.

Here we go with Zimmy.

----------


## eee

If we were in Zimmyworld, there'd be scenes of death and mayhem visible though the windows, and the angles would be funny.  So I think this is still the Court.  And that something is chasing her.

----------


## wingnutx

Nasty elves!

Not that they're totally wrong.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Not that they're totally wrong.


Heh, elves seem to have no issue with seeing through those illusions.

----------


## eee

And NOW we get to the crux of the matter.  Where is Gamma?

----------


## eee

BAD!!!!  Reverse course!  Retreat!  Run away!  GET OUT OF THERE, ANNIE!!!!

Don't be fooled...

----------


## Doran

I love how fake-Renardine is just repeating Surma over and over again, like a Videogame NPC.

Welcome to Corneria!

----------


## wingnutx

I forgot that Zimmy is terrified of Kat.

----------


## DeTess

Did... Did Zimmy just merge Antimony again?

----------


## Lizard Lord

Yea. The commentary confirms it if nothing else.

----------


## Nettlekid

Thank god. The "two Annies" thing was bizarre and didn't really add to the story. It stuck around way longer than it should have.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

I doubt it's "just fixed", this could still be inside Zimmy's... mindverse?

----------


## Typewriter

> Thank god. The "two Annies" thing was bizarre and didn't really add to the story. It stuck around way longer than it should have.


I'm not sure I completely agree to be honest. It's the sort of thing I was initially annoyed by because it was such an abrupt change that felt very temporary. "Why do this if it's going to be a thing for just a brief moment before it gets undone?" was the question I kept asking myself. But it kept going - and it explored a lot of interesting aspects of it. How do they treat each other? How do others treat them differently? What causes them to work together and what causes conflict? Sure, it was weird, but it taught us a lot about the characters and it was at least a type of weird that was handled with effort rather than as a lazy throwaway or something like that.

I'm definitely fine with it being 'fixed' if that's what's happening but I'm very glad that it was explored as thoroughly as it was up to this point.

----------


## Willie the Duck

I'm fine with it fixed, but I don't understand why (or how, other than 'Zimmy fixed it... somehow') this is where it gets resolved. I mean, was this tiny bit of them fighting over their mother the emotional conflict that defines their differences, and was this supposed to be the catharsis?

----------


## Typewriter

> I'm fine with it fixed, but I don't understand why (or how, other than 'Zimmy fixed it... somehow') this is where it gets resolved. I mean, was this tiny bit of them fighting over their mother the emotional conflict that defines their differences, and was this supposed to be the catharsis?


That's the bit that sort of leaves me wondering. Is it temporary? Is this an illusion? Or are we going to see merged with both viewpoints and she'll come out the other side better able to understand conflicting points of view? Will she 'feel' both of the things she felt before? Fixed is fine, resolved... still needs resolving.

----------


## Zazu Yen

Yeah, I can't help but feel that we were "out of the room" when Annie's catharsis supposedly happened. We were off learning more about Zimmy while the two Annies confronted each-other about their mother, and that was an odd choice for Tom to make. But Tom likes to make chapters a certain size, and getting into Annie's catharsis so far into this one would have forced it to split over chapters. He could be planning to end this chapter and use Annie explaining the catharsis to someone (Renard and/or Kat) as a way to flashback to it and use it as the center of its own chapter.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

The slow pace of the webcomic format exacerbates issues of pacing or storytelling.  

(See, when Annie's deadbeat dad returned... it wasn't *that* many pages until things resolved a little, but the "three pages a week" pace made it excruciating.) 

Right now, I don't like this sudden "one Annie again".

----------


## slayerx

> I'm fine with it fixed, but I don't understand why (or how, other than 'Zimmy fixed it... somehow') this is where it gets resolved. I mean, was this tiny bit of them fighting over their mother the emotional conflict that defines their differences, and was this supposed to be the catharsis?



Agreed. It really does feel like the wrong time, place and method. I mean, it feels kinda of off that Zimmy would be the one to fix it when she was completely unrelated to the problem in the first place. And feels even more off that this all happened in a chapter that wasn't even about Annie

I think what would have made it work is if The two annie's and their internal conflict was the focus. The two of them hash out their internal conflict with each annie taking a different side, they resolve the internal struggle thus becoming of one mind on their issues, and THEN zimmy's powers fuses them together. Still odd that Zimmy's the one that solves the problem, but atleast then the timing and place would make sense

----------


## DaFlipp

...Man, it wasn't until reading this forum I realized that Annie's two selves had been combined???  (I haven't watched Dragon Ball so the hint about the clothes was lost on me.) 

Yeah, it does feel like something was... not ideal about the pacing of that resolution. And if this truly is the end of the two Annies thing (not that it necessarily is! The author isn't exactly shy about bringing back old things and making them super-relevant again!), I'm gonna agree with the folks saying that it really didn't seem to amount to a whole lot, huh?

----------


## Max_Killjoy

I hope we get something that goes over how this happened or what happened or something... 

Right now this comes across as "writer was over the whole thing, time to move on".

----------


## wingnutx

I love Jones.

----------


## Murk

Huh. Same here. 

I remember being disappointed by the last chapter, thinking "It seemed like important things were leading to a climax, and then in the end nothing happened and everyone just walked away?" 

And now it turns out the two Annies were re-combined? I didn't even notice.

----------


## Kornaki

Panel 4 looks a lot like what an author would draw if someone was trying to hide something.

----------


## wingnutx

I don't think this is over. Not by a long shot.

----------


## Kornaki

Did Jones... Go over there to hook up with Anthony? That's Kornaki's Long Shot Webcomic Call of the Day.

She was just making small talk to distract Antimony from asking why she was there.

----------


## Ellen

Panel one of Friday's looks like Annie is going into panic mode at the idea of discussing what happened.

Just remember, denial is one of Annie's coping mechanisms. Nothing is wrong if she doesn't admit it's wrong.

My interpretation of Friday's last panel is that Tony thinks something is wrong. He told Jones. Jones feels she has confirmed his worries are valid.

Yes, Tony is a bad father. But, despite being absolutely, mind-numbingly horrible at being a father, he cares. And he knows something is wrong.

I'm guessing Annie's "confidence" and increased firepower are actually bad things. Again, Annie pretends everything is all right when it isn't. "Confidence" may really mean "denial cranked up by a power of ten that anything is wrong."

Increased firepower may mean that Annie is two people instead of being successfully merged into one. She has more power because it's the power of two people trapped together.

Ideas how this may work out:

1) Annie is at the beginning of whatever Zimmy started to help her. She will truly merge when she works out some of her issues instead of pretending they aren't there.

2) Annie is at the beginning, but this is just a between step. When she works out those issues, she'll switch back to two people.

3) Zimmy, who hasn't won any awards for her social skills, goofed. This isn't working the way she thought it would.

Side benefit: This may give an insight into how Loup, who is also a combined being, can be dealt with.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Did Jones... Go over there to hook up with Anthony? That's Kornaki's Long Shot Webcomic Call of the Day.


Based on today's strip, if that's not the case, then Tom is doing his level best to throw us a red herring.

----------


## eee

Harsh and somewhat inaccurate assessment of Tony's observational skills.  Correct view of his parental abilities.

----------


## Haruspex_Pariah

Who would have thought Cvet and Paz regularly hang out and swap juicy gossip.

Meta point: this is how Jones will be caught up with all the stuff we readers already know so Tom doesn't have to spend more pages doing that.

----------


## Iruka

Jones knows that Cvet totally likes to gossip.

----------


## Mith

> Jones knows that Cvet totally likes to gossip.


I have a mental image of the Court's Shadow Men constantly using Cvet as an information source.

----------


## wingnutx

> Did Jones... Go over there to hook up with Anthony?


Jimmy Jims would explode.

----------


## Vinyadan

Maybe someone already noticed, but it's funny how there were one Annie and two gods in the forest, and then there suddenly were two Annies and just one god.

----------


## wingnutx

> Maybe someone already noticed, but it's funny how there were one Annie and two gods in the forest, and then there suddenly were two Annies and just one god.


Good observation.

----------


## RowenMorland

I wonder if we'll find out when we next see Loup that what he did to get two Annie's was trivially easy to do and undo by breaking them like a chocolate bar over a point of inner contention. The fact it could be fixed by coming to terms with herself would be like a joke when she demanded he fix it and it turned out she could have done it all along. It seems like the subtle sort of trick Coyote would pull.

But the joke is that Loup didn't think she would be able to recombine but because Loup is part Ysengrin now the joke has fallen flat and is now on him.

----------


## 137beth

Why does Jones want to "psychologically evaluate" Annie?

----------


## Vinyadan

Maybe she's worried she could be a third Annie (both Annies were shifted, if I recall correctly). Or maybe it's because she now has a powerful weapon at her disposal.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Maybe she's worried she could be a third Annie (both Annies were shifted, if I recall correctly).


Both were shifted, but NEITHER is the correct Annie.




> Or maybe it's because she now has a powerful weapon at her disposal.


Well, that and she has the experiences of effectively two different people.  The months of Forest Annie merged with the months of Court Annie.  That could lead to identity issues.

----------


## 137beth

> Maybe she's worried she could be a third Annie (both Annies were shifted, if I recall correctly).


That could be.




> Or maybe it's because she now has a powerful weapon at her disposal.


But what would Jones need an Annie-strength weapon for, given how powerful she is?

----------


## SZbNAhL

> But what would Jones need an Annie-strength weapon for, given how powerful she is?


There are reasons not to want a mentally unstable person to have a powerful weapon besides wanting it for yourself.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

Maybe Jones and some others are just legitimately concerned?

----------


## Vinyadan

> But what would Jones need an Annie-strength weapon for, given how powerful she is?


I meant that Annie has a weapon, and she's very young, so it's best if she gets some psychological exam and/or support.  :Wink: 

How did forest Annie behave towards Eglamore? I noticed that Annie's dad acts distant towards short-haired Annie, who acted disdainfully towards Eglamore.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Maybe Jones and some others are just legitimately concerned?


Someone suddenly has two instances of them, and then suddenly becomes one again. The Court probably wants a full analysis, and Jones is both the most qualified to handle this and to handle Annie specifically.
This is probably treating the situation a bit _too_ calmly, even.

----------


## 137beth

> I meant that Annie has a weapon, and she's very young, so it's best if she gets some psychological exam and/or support.


Ah, I see I misunderstood your comment.  I thought you meant Jones wanted to use Annie as a weapon.  I was wrong.

----------


## wingnutx

Idra takes no BS.

----------


## 137beth

Talking to him directly.  Why if everyone did that the comic would end much faster!

----------


## Ellen

And, _bam,_ we get hit both by 

1) The fact that Tony is a human being who loves his daughter, however bad he is at showing it, and--

2) Oh, missed that. Yeah, that is a pretty reasonable way of reacting to one Antimony.

----------


## Spacewolf

He's also literally lost a daughter since neither of the two are his original.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

The idea that neither of the Annies was the "real" Annie is based on, what, a single claim by one individual, that could be taken as highly "metaphorical"?

----------


## sihnfahl

> The idea that neither of the Annies was the "real" Annie is based on, what, a single claim by one individual, that could be taken as highly "metaphorical"?


Not just one individual.

Brinnie, for example, knows they're 'shifted'.

And the Norns.  If it wasn't for Kat's time manipulations, Annie would have died.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Brinnie, for example, knows they're 'shifted'.


Yes. But its not specified what shifted actually means. 
So it does not really tell us anything.




> And the Norns. If it wasn't for Kat's time manipulations, Annie would have died.


This does not say anything about Annie not being the "real" Annie either. 
So because someone, at some point saved her life, she is suddenly not "real?" 
That does not make any sense.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Yes. But its not specified what shifted actually means.


Back here.

She was in a different timeline and pulled into the current one.  And that happened to both Annies.

----------


## Clertar

So Annie is Peter Bishop from Fringe.

----------


## eee

I tend to forget how easy Tony is to hate.  You can say "Broken Man", and really bad at being a father, and misplaced emotional responses; but I wish the creatures that broke his face had kept beating until he'd stopped being such a square peg.

----------


## 137beth

The author's comment today made me giggle.

----------


## sihnfahl

> So Annie is Peter Bishop from Fringe.


Pre-Forest Annie is like Peter.  Kat saved her from the fall off the bridge.

Post-Forest Annie is something else; Loup created a different timeline where Annie left the forest ... or stayed in the forest, depending on your perspective.

Either way, they were forked off the Pre-Forest Annie, who, herself, was shifted from another timeline.

----------


## wingnutx

> I tend to forget how easy Tony is to hate.  You can say "Broken Man", and really bad at being a father, and misplaced emotional responses; but I wish the creatures that broke his face had kept beating until he'd stopped being such a square peg.


Zimmy broke his face.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I tend to forget how easy Tony is to hate.  You can say "Broken Man", and really bad at being a father, and misplaced emotional responses; but I wish the creatures that broke his face had kept beating until he'd stopped being such a square peg.


The past several months (...more?) have solidified around father-daughter(s) trying to connect and failing (as reasonable-but-hurt people do). It'd be easy to see Tony in that framing and forget for a moment all the other incomprehensible stuff he's done and said. I certainly did, to the point where all the kids, and then his adult so-called-friends walking along badmouthing him kinda felt like ganging up. And then we got this last strip and I remembered _:"oh, right! That's the <epically punchable so-and-so> we're talking about!"_ :Small Tongue:  :Small Furious:

----------


## Murk

> Zimmy broke his face.


Not just Zimmy.

----------


## wingnutx

> Not just Zimmy.


Oh yeah. I just remembered the hand.

----------


## Ellen

How to feel towards Tony is complicated. On the one hand, _why_ is the way he is easy to understand. The _why_ part is easy to forgive. But, the harm he's done is very real and the injuries go deep. 

Generally, I've accepted the root fact that he is doing the best he can. Maybe, if he could get some kind of help, he could do better. But, it's not clear what kind of help he needs or what kind exists in this world. Do counselors even exist in this world? If a school counselor ever showed up, what species and how terrifying would he/she/they/it be? (This is Gunnerkrigg. An entity that can only be correctly referred to as "It" is a very real possibility. Like Antimony said, everyone's afraid of clowns. . . .)

As a metaphor, the cage raises his problems to a new level.

But, is it a metaphor? I've been accepting Tony as damaged or lacking basic skills or related, _normal_ problems. What if there's more to it than that? What if some part of him is literally in a cage inside his own mind?

----------


## eee

> The past several months (...more?) have solidified around father-daughter(s) trying to connect and failing (as reasonable-but-hurt people do). It'd be easy to see Tony in that framing and forget for a moment all the other incomprehensible stuff he's done and said. I certainly did, to the point where all the kids, and then his adult so-called-friends walking along badmouthing him kinda felt like ganging up. And then we got this last strip and I remembered _:"oh, right! That's the <epically punchable so-and-so> we're talking about!"_


Those non-stop emotional kidney and throat punches Tony gave her when he returned did immeasurable damage to her.  Annie may forgive him, someday; there's no reason anyone else should.

Especially Kat.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

I stopped reading the comic for a while when Tony came back, he was unbearable. 

To the point where I don't understand why Annie wanted anything to do with him after that.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> How to feel towards Tony is complicated. On the one hand, _why_ is the way he is easy to understand. The _why_ part is easy to forgive. But, the harm he's done is very real and the injuries go deep. 
> 
> Generally, I've accepted the root fact that he is doing the best he can. Maybe, if he could get some kind of help, he could do better. But, it's not clear what kind of help he needs or what kind exists in this world. Do counselors even exist in this world? If a school counselor ever showed up, what species and how terrifying would he/she/they/it be? (This is Gunnerkrigg. An entity that can only be correctly referred to as "It" is a very real possibility. Like Antimony said, everyone's afraid of clowns. . . .)
> 
> As a metaphor, the cage raises his problems to a new level.
> 
> But, is it a metaphor? I've been accepting Tony as damaged or lacking basic skills or related, _normal_ problems. What if there's more to it than that? What if some part of him is literally in a cage inside his own mind?


It's probably a metaphor insofar as we are aware, but it may well be literal. But it's a moot point.
Think of the ether; is there any real distinction between a ghost that's the amalgamation of ether with the mind, knowledge, appearance and personality of someone versus their actual spirit?

Regardless, we probably _won't_ get a story arc with Tony's mind literally being freed. He has his problems; he's trying his best, still failing, but he can't escape them with a magical adventure. I imagine he will reconcile with Annie, but he isn't a character who exists to have his problems fixed.

----------


## DaFlipp

I just finished a re-read of those chapters, and man...  I really have to hand it to Tom Siddell for making us empathize with Antimony during those chapters and feel her disorientation and pain. 

Because the crazy thing is, on the surface? His behavior doesn't seem *that* out of line! (Stop angry-typing, this isn't a he's-not-so-bad post, keep reading.) After all, what exactly are those "non-stop emotional kidney- and throat-punches" that he delivers upon his return?

1.) He shows up without advance notice. (Rude, perhaps, but understandable given that, as we find out, he was actually shanghaied into his return by the Court.)
2.) He coldly and insultingly tells Antimony to wash off her makeup. (Unnecessarily cruel, and in my opinion the most "abusive" thing on this list due to the fact he does it in front of her classmates, but on its face not exactly life-altering.)
3.) He tells her to stop going to the forest. (Given the severe dangers of the forest, this is not an unreasonable command from a parent, and furthermore is implied to have been an order from the Court.)
4.) He demands she transfer Reynard to him. (Reynard murdered a man in an attempt to woo his wife; it is easy to see why he wouldn't want him near his daughter, too.)
5.) He held her back a year to make up for cheating off Kat. (This... is kinda on Annie, honestly, and as was later revealed, the Court was planning to use her cheating as an excuse to kick her out if Tony didn't come back; this was clearly his way to try to remove that particular bit of leverage the Court had over his daughter.)
6.) He arranged for Antimony to live with him again. (Given the dangers she'd been trucking with and her own academic misdemeanors, this is pretty reasonable too.)

Now. Like I said, all of these *could* be seen as reasonable (though #2 is hard to spin as anything but needlessly cruel). But typing that list was actually super damn hard for me, because the comic does just a brilliant job of showing how these "little" things actually land on Antimony's psyche, and how - taken together (and coupled with his neglect from beforehand) it adds up to the portrait of a father so cold, so imperious, that he's one of the most viscerally hate-able fictional dads this side of you-know-who-I'm-thinking-of,-worst-dad-ever from Fullmetal Alchemist. 

So yeah, with that in mind, I'm curious where this goes. I think this is going to go a long way toward explaining Tony's terrible fatherhood, but not toward excusing it.

----------


## BRC

I mean, it sounds like Tony is a man incapable of being a good father. 

Like, he certainly has many moral failings in how he treats Antimony. There are certainly a lot of things he could have done BETTER, considering he is fully aware that he is unable to emotionally connect with her. Like, all things considered, sending her to live at the Court is probably the best thing he could have done for her. 

And until his return to the school, it seems like he wasn't abusive so much as distant and negligent. Which isn't great. 

It sounds like holding Antimony back a year was the Court's idea, rather than Tony's/ https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1559.

Like, I want to examine his return from this new perspective, plus what he said to Donny in the link above.

He accepted the Court's deal to return and work for them to protect her <- Good move Tony.

He chose not to tell her he was back. He decided that the first she would hear about him would be when she saw him in the classroom. And his argument of "I can't be normal around multiple people/ my daughter" doesn't apply here, this was a decision that he made, not a social interaction. He could have gotten word to Annie through any number of means. <- Bad Move Tony. 

Publicly Humilates Her. Once again, this isn't fully covered by his "Mind closes off" explanation for how his brain works. That covers him being awkward and unable to express himself around people, but there's a difference between your mind closing off, and publicly shaming your daughter for wearing makeup. 
Like, had he just treated her like any other student, in his usual cold and indifferent manner, that wouldn't have been GREAT. But, as we know things now, it certainly seems like some part of him wanted to punish her. <- REAL Bad Move, Tony.


"You can't go back to the Forest" might have been the Court's idea. Might have been him being protective. Gonna call that one a Wash.

"Give me Renardyne" Once again, might have been the Court's idea, might have been him trying to be protective. I suppose he wouldn't have known about Annie and Reynard's relationship, but still, gonna ding him for that one, at least for not checking in with the Donlans.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> "Give me Renardyne" Once again, might have been the Court's idea, might have been him trying to be protective. I suppose he wouldn't have known about Annie and Reynard's relationship, but still, gonna ding him for that one, at least for not checking in with the Donlans.


I mean, imagine you're 20 and you find out someone murdered your co-worker and used his mangled corpse to propose to your lover.
20 years later, you find out he's on parole and "reformed", and is your daughter's next-door neighbor.
He might be legitimately a better person, but until you can prove it to yourself that he's safe, it's still a terrifying prospect.

The Donlans know Rey is sincere and is being a defacto father figure for Annie, but it is more than reasonable for anyone who hadn't been able to spend time with Rey to make sure he was away from Annie as a gut instinct. It might not have been right in context and maybe Tony should have given him back once he found out how Rey had been acting, but the initial action is justified.

===
Not telling Annie he had returned makes a surprising amount of sense given how he must be feeling. Tony talks a lot about deeply regretting his actions while he was out in the Scam Spirit area, and I doubt he wanted to so much as look at Annie out of horror at what he'd done even if there wasn't a scratch on her face. He may well have resolved to send a message to her by way of telling Anja or something but couldn't bring himself to it. He had just been through a series of traumatizing experiences; that's enough to shatter the courage of any person.

I imagine if we saw his full return to the court from Tony's perspective, he'd have spent full days tearing himself apart over whether he should talk to Annie.

===

The makeup thing is a horrible thing to do, there's no realistic justification.

----------


## Ialdabaoth

I'm pretty sure the make-up thing is because Annie with her make-up on reminds him too much of his wife, and the emotions don't let him think reasonably about how he's affecting the actual person in front of him.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I'm pretty sure the make-up thing is because Annie with her make-up on reminds him too much of his wife, and the emotions don't let him think reasonably about how he's affecting the actual person in front of him.


He straight up confess thats the cause.

----------


## Typewriter

*Spoiler*
Show

Glad to hear Annie say all this. She gets it but she knows that it doesn't make it all OK. It's a good mindset for someone to have I feel.

Also if we were closer to the end of this thread I'd suggest "Gunnerkrigg Court 9: Not Excused, Just Explained" as a thread title.

----------


## 137beth

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Glad to hear Annie say all this. She gets it but she knows that it doesn't make it all OK. It's a good mindset for someone to have I feel.
> 
> Also if we were closer to the end of this thread I'd suggest "Gunnerkrigg Court 9: Not Excused, Just Explained" as a thread title.


*Spoiler*
Show

This is definitely more growth than Annie has shown in quite a long time, if ever.

----------


## wingnutx

> Also if we were closer to the end of this thread I'd suggest *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Gunnerkrigg Court 9: Not Excused, Just Explained
>  as a thread title.


That's a good one.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> This is definitely more growth than Annie has shown in quite a long time, if ever.


I think there's some turn of phrase about how you can't grow as a person until you've seen who you are as a person, and now she's had to chance to do so quite literally.

----------


## Ibrinar

One comment pointed something out that made me wonder 




> Whats weird here is that Annie is just flat-out wrong. Weve only seen a few characters hate her father. Some like him (Kat), and some, just like Annie, know about his limitations while disapproving of his conduct (Donnie). Why is the narrative treating this monologue like its somehow wise? Screw what the haters say about how my father neglects me isnt personal growth. Its maladaptive and sad.


The first part I mean not the second, I will wait judging what the narrative is saying until after the relevant parts are over.
Not counting the flashback i can't remember all that many characters hating him.

Eglamore hates him

Jones doesn't have strong emotions to most people.

Kat was quickly converted to a Tony fan.

Kat's parents are friendly with him iirc.

Many characters just have little to do with him

I can't quite remember what wolf guy thinks of him. 

So is he actually hated? (I mean he might still be by of screen people but is he by the cast?)

----------


## Kornaki

For example, he's hated by the entire audience. She's just breaking the fourth wall a little bit here.

----------


## Ibrinar

I hope we get something more about tha two Annies just getting merged beside endless Tony talk.

----------


## Waxpapers

This whole chapter just feels like Tom's gotten so annoyed at the fact that he can't convince the readers that the child abuser is actually a decent guy that he's put the whole story on pause so characters can directly address the audience to tell us that we're wrong. Complete with Eglamore standing in as the voice of the readers to (badly) argue that Tony continues to be a terrible father, with Idra stepping in as the author mouthpiece to tell us that we're stupid for thinking that it's possible for abandoning your child and returning to your child's life without warning and proceeding to be abusive to them to both be bad things. And he wants to have Tony be redeemed without having the character go through any sort of redemption process involving acknowledging that he's done (and continues to do!) bad things and trying to right his wrongs. All the characters (including Annie) just spontaneously agree that Tony has brain problems and therefore deserves love despite all the ways he's hurt Annie (even though the purported brain problems don't actually explain the abuse). The story is looking directly at the reader and saying "the proper response to a parent abusing their child is for the child to unconditionally love their parent and forgive the abuse without any effort on the parent's part, and if you think that said parent doesn't deserve to control their child's life or that the child should be removed from the parent to protect them you are wrong".

It's easily the worst chapter of the comic, ever, and it's made worse by the fact that the dumb message is being conveyed so artlessly and boringly, spread out over (at this point) two and a half months of comics, most of which are just text dumps clearly addressed directly at the audience. It's bad storytelling trying to force the reader to agree with characterization that doesn't match what we've been shown, with the narrative of the comic trying to reframe abuse that we saw as "oh Tony is just bad in social situations with more than one person", and telling us that the reason both we and the characters see Tony as a bad person is irrational dislike due to him being antisocial, rather than because he's repeatedly been shown to be a genuinely bad parent.

----------


## Squire Doodad

I suspect within the next few pages we're supposed to see Tony actually struggle and try to make change on his end and try to begin his redemption arc.
As in, it may well be all kindling for his redemption arc, but it looks a lot like a half-baked "arc by itself."




> I hope we get something more about tha two Annies just getting merged beside endless Tony talk.


I agree, this should have been 3 chapters from now.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

> This whole chapter just feels like Tom's gotten so annoyed at the fact that he can't convince the readers that the child abuser is actually a decent guy that he's put the whole story on pause so characters can directly address the audience to tell us that we're wrong. Complete with Eglamore standing in as the voice of the readers to (badly) argue that Tony continues to be a terrible father, with Idra stepping in as the author mouthpiece to tell us that we're stupid for thinking that it's possible for abandoning your child and returning to your child's life without warning and proceeding to be abusive to them to both be bad things. And he wants to have Tony be redeemed without having the character go through any sort of redemption process involving acknowledging that he's done (and continues to do!) bad things and trying to right his wrongs. All the characters (including Annie) just spontaneously agree that Tony has brain problems and therefore deserves love despite all the ways he's hurt Annie (even though the purported brain problems don't actually explain the abuse). The story is looking directly at the reader and saying "the proper response to a parent abusing their child is for the child to unconditionally love their parent and forgive the abuse without any effort on the parent's part, and if you think that said parent doesn't deserve to control their child's life or that the child should be removed from the parent to protect them you are wrong".
> 
> It's easily the worst chapter of the comic, ever, and it's made worse by the fact that the dumb message is being conveyed so artlessly and boringly, spread out over (at this point) two and a half months of comics, most of which are just text dumps clearly addressed directly at the audience. It's bad storytelling trying to force the reader to agree with characterization that doesn't match what we've been shown, with the narrative of the comic trying to reframe abuse that we saw as "oh Tony is just bad in social situations with more than one person", and telling us that the reason both we and the characters see Tony as a bad person is irrational dislike due to him being antisocial, rather than because he's repeatedly been shown to be a genuinely bad parent.


When Tony first returned, I posted some stuff about him being a horrible abusive father in the comments under the comic... and those posts were deleted.

----------


## BRC

> This whole chapter just feels like Tom's gotten so annoyed at the fact that he can't convince the readers that the child abuser is actually a decent guy that he's put the whole story on pause so characters can directly address the audience to tell us that we're wrong. Complete with Eglamore standing in as the voice of the readers to (badly) argue that Tony continues to be a terrible father, with Idra stepping in as the author mouthpiece to tell us that we're stupid for thinking that it's possible for abandoning your child and returning to your child's life without warning and proceeding to be abusive to them to both be bad things. And he wants to have Tony be redeemed without having the character go through any sort of redemption process involving acknowledging that he's done (and continues to do!) bad things and trying to right his wrongs. All the characters (including Annie) just spontaneously agree that Tony has brain problems and therefore deserves love despite all the ways he's hurt Annie (even though the purported brain problems don't actually explain the abuse). The story is looking directly at the reader and saying "the proper response to a parent abusing their child is for the child to unconditionally love their parent and forgive the abuse without any effort on the parent's part, and if you think that said parent doesn't deserve to control their child's life or that the child should be removed from the parent to protect them you are wrong".
> 
> It's easily the worst chapter of the comic, ever, and it's made worse by the fact that the dumb message is being conveyed so artlessly and boringly, spread out over (at this point) two and a half months of comics, most of which are just text dumps clearly addressed directly at the audience. It's bad storytelling trying to force the reader to agree with characterization that doesn't match what we've been shown, with the narrative of the comic trying to reframe abuse that we saw as "oh Tony is just bad in social situations with more than one person", and telling us that the reason both we and the characters see Tony as a bad person is irrational dislike due to him being antisocial, rather than because he's repeatedly been shown to be a genuinely bad parent.


I feel like Tom ALMOST had Tony's character work, but he went a bit too far in a few places.


Like, at the core, and I think the way Tom WANTS us to see Tony is this: A man whose psychological issues prevent him from showing emotion or affection when speaking to more than one person, and those same issues make it difficult for him to act normal around his daughter. 

And I think this could work if Tony was JUST Cold and Distant with Annie. We could get this bit where Annie says "I realize now that it's not because he hates me, that's just as close as he can possibly get to actually being affectionate with me", and get us to this state where they genuinely care for each other, but can't really express it. 

EXCEPT that there are a few on-screen moments where Tony's "Issues" Go beyond "Unable to express himself emotionally" into "Coldhearted and deliberate emotional abuse". The Comic/Tony wants us to believe that such incidents are just, like, an extension of his Social Awkwardness, which just seems like the Cold Emotion equivalent of "He's not a bad person, he just occasionally flies into uncontrolled violent rages! He can't help it!". 


I think you could even hit a lot of the same story beats, just by having Tony be cold, and having Annie react to that coldness, without having Tony ever take deliberate action to hurt or humiliate his daughter. 

He can just show up without little warning, with a blunt letter that says "Hello, I am returning The Court, I will be your new teacher and you will be living with me". 
Their first meeting in years can be him saying in private that "I understand you've been cheating off Katarina, you're going to need to do make-up work. Please transfer control of Reynardine to me".  

And Annie can be, rightfully, emotionally DEVASTATED by these actions, but she could come to forgive him once she came to understand him, and all that could be explained away by an inability to express himself around his daughter. Unable to properly speak, he just makes cold, blunt statements that carry across the core things he wants to communicate, with any sense of tenderness or affection stripped out. That's the behavior of a man locked down by his own mind.

But there have been too many moments where Tony's actions only really make sense in the context of him being deliberately malicious, trying to hurt Annie, which doesn't make sense if he's truely just Unable To Express Himself.

----------


## Waxpapers

> But there have been too many moments where Tony's actions only really make sense in the context of him being deliberately malicious, trying to hurt Annie, which doesn't make sense if he's truely just Unable To Express Himself.


This is a big part of what people are objecting to, yeah. Tom wants us to read Tony as a character trying to atone but all that's conveyed to the reader is that he's gone from being a slightly vicious and malevolent ass to just being an utterly neglectful ass. And it backfires, because when other characters who were previously characterized as being caring and intelligent all turn to the camera and agree that Tony is in the right and Annie is fine for deciding to love him no matter what, we're not convinced to agree with those characters. We instead see them as uncaring or (in the case of Annie) mentally unhealthy, because they fully acknowledge that Tony is cold, callous, not infrequently cruel, and apparently suffering from some kind of mental illness that by his own words prevents him from doing the things a parent needs to do, but don't see that as something worth doing anything about or even really objecting to.

Except Eglamore, who remains the lone voice of reason. But he's deliberately written as wrong, with the narrative all but telling us that we're supposed to see him as an idiot blinded by jealousy.

----------


## Typewriter

I find it very odd that people acknowledge Tony's mental problems and character flaws but then try to debate the 'proper' ways the character could have handled his mental issues and character flaws so that he would have been more likable. Isn't the entire premise of those issues that they can't be handled by the character in a proper way? Isn't Annie acknowledging that her fathers actions aren't OK but she gets them?

I started to write out a personal story/experience because I identify a lot with Tony but with the amount of hatred he gets as a fictional character makes me think that my actual 'real world' mistakes would be seen much harsher. I'll summarize as this - everyone knows Tony has made horrible mistakes, including Tony. You don't have to forgive him to understand him and you don't have to love him just because you understand him.

I have done things that people have thought were cruel and malicious when they were really acts borne out of fear, confusion, and/or a lack of understanding. The text is telling you that this is the situation with Tony. Everyone is free to decide how to respond to that text however they feel is right (you don't have to forgive/love/hate people who cause emotional distress just because they're mentally ill) but I think people who are ignoring that text and deciding that it means something else are trying too hard to rationalize things that are, by definition, irrational.

----------


## Ibrinar

I am still wondering whether Tom tried that and failed (what BRC described) or not. I mean it kinda reads like he did. But on the not side is that he also choose to make Tony harbor resentment about the fire elemental side of Annie and brought the anger up this chapter so I assume it is deliberately not everything explainable with mind cage. So he shouldn't be thinking the mind cage will recontextualize everything people dislike him for. And if he doesn't he shouldn't be thinking bringing up his inability to communicate again would change everyone's mind about Tony.

I kinda want to see whether a reread would make me think differently of Tony, much is half forgotten by now. But I also don't have the motivation to reread it currently.

----------


## Willie the Duck

I wonder if the perception would have changed if, instead of just showing him trying more and more to connect with Annie, he actually apologized for (for example) the makeup-humiliation event.

----------


## Thufir

> But there have been too many moments where Tony's actions only really make sense in the context of him being deliberately malicious, trying to hurt Annie, which doesn't make sense if he's truely just Unable To Express Himself.


Have there? I can't think of any. Most of the things he did which devastated Annie were exactly the kind of cold and matter of fact that you suggest he should have been.
The one big exception I can think of is the makeup thing, but while awful, that also had a specific explanation which was not deliberate malice or intent to hurt.

(Of course lack of malicious intent does not excuse what he does. I'm not trying to defend Tony, but I don't see an inconsistency with the portrayal of his character here)

----------


## Typewriter

> I wonder if the perception would have changed if, instead of just showing him trying more and more to connect with Annie, he actually apologized for (for example) the makeup-humiliation event.


I know this isn't an answer that people like, and maybe it's not even a correct answer, but there may be a rather simple one. What if he can't apologize? He is a man who hates himself for killing his wife and for nearly killing his daughter. He knows, and regrets, his actions but he can't control his ability to communicate with people. He can barely verbalize his awareness and regret of his actions when he is with a close friend and intoxicated to the point of passing out.

Tony is a victim of his own mental illness. Him just being able to 'fix' that about himself and work on improving the situation by communicating in a healthy manner completely undermines the premise of the character.

*Spoiler: EDIT - Minor Personal Example*
Show


For some reason I lose my mind when I get lost. Angry, weepy, psychotic. But here's some interesting bits about that.

1. The level of panic does not change based on the situation. I was once lost in Japan on my way to work, got a flat tire, and couldn't speak the language and the level of panic I was experiencing was identical to the level of panic of me being five minutes away from home with nowhere to be and my GPS stopped working.
2. I don't panic if someone else is with me. Even if they're even more lost than I am. On that same trip to Japan my wife came to visit me and I got lost deep in some mountains I'd never intended to go down and was running out of gas and I was fine the entire time. Slightly nervous, but mostly fine. To be clear - being on the phone with someone does not help (even if they are in a position to give me directions). An ignorant person, even a child, in the car with me makes the stress of the situation non-existent and a person on the phone trying to assist doesn't help me in the slightest.
3. I have talked to therapists about this and it's generally considered to just be some sort of autistic trait of mine - it doesn't seem to have stemmed from anything, and it doesn't translate over to any other situations.

I would assume that you read that and think "that doesn't make any sense" - you would be correct. It doesn't. I have never once been in a situation where being late or slightly lost is worth the amount of emotional turmoil I've experienced with even minor GPS issues. Why is getting lost in a foreign country the same as being lost in my own backyard? Why is isolation is a key factor in my response? I don't know and I can't fix it. 

I've made plans on how to fix it but they don't work. My brain stops functioning and I go so far into a fight of flight response that I prioritize finding a place to pull over so that I can just let my panic attack play out because I know I'm in no state to be driving. At no point in these situations do I ever think something bad is going to happen. I don't think I'm going to die, or never find my way home. I'm not even worried about being late most of the time. I can tell you right now that the appropriate response to a situation like this is to not panic, call someone for directions or stop and ask someone. Follow road signs to get to a place where I can figure stuff out. Give my GPS a few minutes to reconnect. I'm calm while thinking about this right now and I understand how easy and simple of a situation it is. My wife has called me for directions when she's been lost and it's no big deal - she doesn't panic and I get her directions. I'm not scared of getting lost because I know that it's not anything worth being scared about.

But I also know that if I were to get lost I'd have to pull over ASAP. I have to avoid touching my GPS/Phone because there's a chance I will break it in my rage. I know that I'll need 5-10 minutes once I've stopped to unwind to a safe and calm place. I know that I'll feel ashamed and stupid once it's over but that I'll still be so tense that I likely won't be able to sleep that night.

There are several ways that my brain doesn't function properly and this is one of them. I cannot control my emotional response to this situation. I have tried. I have sought help. Knowing what I should do does not help me actually do it.

This is how I see Tony. He knows what is right and wrong. He has wants and desires. He is smart and rational. And none of that matters in the face of his mental illness.

----------


## Squire Doodad

Legitimately underwhelmed and disappointed by not giving this any sort of conclusion and ending the chapter here instead of having a few pages of Tony going "Annie. I need to discuss something with you" with it clearly being him trying to explain his "cage", and _then_ jumping to this guy.

Tom's not giving this arc closure, and not showing the start of it within this chapter seems...meh.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I know this isn't an answer that people like, and maybe it's not even a correct answer, but there may be a rather simple one. What if he can't apologize? He is a man who hates himself for killing his wife and for nearly killing his daughter. He knows, and regrets, his actions but he can't control his ability to communicate with people. He can barely verbalize his awareness and regret of his actions when he is with a close friend and intoxicated to the point of passing out.
> 
> Tony is a victim of his own mental illness. Him just being able to 'fix' that about himself and work on improving the situation by communicating in a healthy manner completely undermines the premise of the character.


I believe that's entirely possible, and if that's the setup Tom decided he needed to explore, then he set himself an incredibly hard row to hoe. I'm more talking about audience reaction. If he could do so, and did, would people be more apt to accept the 'he's damaged, but his daughter understands' arc we are having?

----------


## Typewriter

> I believe that's entirely possible, and if that's the setup Tom decided he needed to explore, then he set himself an incredibly hard row to hoe. I'm more talking about audience reaction. If he could do so, and did, would people be more apt to accept the 'he's damaged, but his daughter understands' arc we are having?


I think it would depend on a lot. Some people would be disappointed, others would be angry because they don't like Tony, but I think most would fall into a category of not caring or accepting it a little bit easier. It's definitely a tricky thing to write about - Tom can't write a page addressing every possible 'what if' that people come up with to try and explain why Tony can't/won't do things that make sense to them but that means that, at a certain point, he has to stop trying to explain Tony and more than he already has and just let people hate him if that's what they're going to do.

I will say that I do agree with people who have said this chapter feels weirdly timed. The 'two Annie's' thing came up suddenly, stuck around for a very long time, and is now just sort of resolved without being addressed. Instead we're getting Tony exposition and setting up the next nefarious chapter of the school. It's... weird. What strikes me as especially odd is how erratic the motions in Annie's story have felt at times but Kat, who has had an equally wild and bumpy story, feels more natural because of her nature as the secondary character. She's not in the spotlight as much as Annie so when she pops up and says, "I had character development and my situation has changed" it's easier to accept. You just sort of assume it makes sense in the background. With Annie we see everything that happens to her and it really highlights when something is off.

----------


## Waxpapers

> I find it very odd that people acknowledge Tony's mental problems and character flaws but then try to debate the 'proper' ways the character could have handled his mental issues and character flaws so that he would have been more likable. Isn't the entire premise of those issues that they can't be handled by the character in a proper way? Isn't Annie acknowledging that her fathers actions aren't OK but she gets them?


I'm not talking about things Tony should have done differently, I'm talking about things the narrative should have done differently. Tom clearly wants to get the readers to see Tony as sympathetic and Annie's decision as correct, and he's failing to do so. The problem is that the framing narrative puts the onus of dealing with Tony's issues on Annie, making it the job of an abused child to not just tolerate their parents, but to continue loving and supporting them. And while Annie says that Tony's issues explain but don't excuse his conduct, the actions and expressed attitude of Annie and all the adults in the comic show that they _are_excusing Tony- they acknowledge he's done bad things, and that he continues to be a bad parent, but they're not going to do anything about it and Annie is going to continue loving Tony unconditionally even when he doesn't reciprocate.

Maybe Tony is so far gone that he literally can't apologize, can't treat his daughter like a human being, can't be caring or loving to Annie. But in that case, Tony is incapable of being a good parent, and the narrative should acknowledge that! Instead, all the characters around Tony continue to act like he's a bit abrasive but basically hasn't done anything wrong, and nobody except Eglamore (who the narrative clearly portrays as wrong) suggests that Annie would be better off if she was removed from Tony's care. Which, to be clear, if Tony genuinely was as messed up as you're saying, she should be. The fact that Tony is the victim of a mental illness does not mean his daughter should be obligated to deal with the fallout. But that's what the narrative is telling us, and that's what readers are objecting to.

----------


## Typewriter

> Maybe Tony is so far gone that he literally can't apologize, can't treat his daughter like a human being, can't be caring or loving to Annie. But in that case, Tony is incapable of being a good parent, and the narrative should acknowledge that! Instead, all the characters around Tony continue to act like he's a bit abrasive but basically hasn't done anything wrong, and nobody except Eglamore (who the narrative clearly portrays as wrong) suggests that Annie would be better off if she was removed from Tony's care. Which, to be clear, if Tony genuinely was as messed up as you're saying, she should be. The fact that Tony is the victim of a mental illness does not mean his daughter should be obligated to deal with the fallout. But that's what the narrative is telling us, and that's what readers are objecting to.


Plenty of families have one or more members that are unable to express emotions in healthy ways due to mental illness but that doesn't mean that their family is required to cut them out. It's a choice some make and I'm not passing judgement on that, I'm just saying that you're not complaining about Annie being obligated to do anything - you're complaining that she's making choices you don't agree with.

----------


## Waxpapers

> Plenty of families have one or more members that are unable to express emotions in healthy ways due to mental illness but that doesn't mean that their family is required to cut them out. It's a choice some make and I'm not passing judgement on that, I'm just saying that you're not complaining about Annie being obligated to do anything - you're complaining that she's making choices you don't agree with.


First of all, no, actually, you don't get to tell me why I think things about a media work, unless you put in the work of actually examining the things I wrote to show how somehow I'm arguing for something I don't believe. Again, the problem isn't the choices Annie makes- characters are allowed to make questionable choices!- the problem is the way the narrative frames those choices. When the narrative says that Annie is correct to continue loving someone incapable of returning her feelings, and says that other adults are correct to not care about how Tony abused Annie, and that the one adult who _is_ concerned about obviously bad behavior is only upset because he's jealous, and in fact the things that happened to Annie are her own fault for behaving like the protagonist of a fantasy series, and also the clear abuse we were shown was actually just Tony being a good father and making Annie do work, it is making a statement about how relationships between parents and children should work- "He's a weirdo, right? [...] but a young lass like annie, it's good to have her old man around". And in fact, people who continue to point out the bad things parents do should be ignored. And furthermore, having the attitude that you need to love your parents unconditionally even if they're abusive to you is mentally healthy. The story around the choices characters make makes an argument of its own, and readers are rightly pointing out that that argument is bull, along with the way the story keeps trying to reframe past events and actions.

And second, you realize there's a difference between choosing not to completely cut someone off and treating an abuser who is (in your words) unable to be a good parent as if they've done nothing wrong, right? Like, there are options other than everyone pretending Tony is a fully capable father despite every indication that he will continue to be uncaring and emotionally unavailable while capriciously making decisions about Annie's life. Annie does not exactly lack for alternative parental figures.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

> Legitimately underwhelmed and disappointed by not giving this any sort of conclusion and ending the chapter here instead of having a few pages of Tony going "Annie. I need to discuss something with you" with it clearly being him trying to explain his "cage", and _then_ jumping to this guy.
> 
> Tom's not giving this arc closure, and not showing the start of it within this chapter seems...meh.


He didn't really give the two-Annies arc closure, he just ended it out of nowhere.

----------


## Typewriter

> First of all, no, actually, you don't get to tell me why I think things about a media work, unless you put in the work of actually examining the things I wrote to show how somehow I'm arguing for something I don't believe.


My intention is not to put words into your mouth - I'm simply stating how you're coming across. You seem to be upset that characters in this work of fiction don't share the same opinion as you and are blaming the narrative for failing to convince that your interpretation is wrong. You're defining who the characters are, then complaining that the characters aren't acting the way you want them to. When something gets shown or explained that adds nuance or complexity you ignore it because it doesn't fit in with what you've already decided is unjustifiable abuse.




> Again, the problem isn't the choices Annie makes- characters are allowed to make questionable choices!- the problem is the way the narrative frames those choices. When the narrative says that Annie is correct to continue loving someone incapable of returning her feelings, and says that other adults are correct to not care about how Tony abused Annie, and that the one adult who _is_ concerned about obviously bad behavior is only upset because he's jealous, and in fact the things that happened to Annie are her own fault for behaving like the protagonist of a fantasy series


The situation is complex and characters are disagreeing with each other over it. That's my takeaway from this. I mean, hell, Anja looks uncomfortable agreeing to the blame being placed on Annie and in the following comic she essentially states that the blame being placed on Annie is stronger than it should be. You have four people five people having a conversation but because 2 of them disagree with your stance your take away is that the comic is trying to force a stance.




> , and also the clear abuse we were shown was actually just Tony being a good father and making Annie do work,]


Which part is the 'clear abuse'? The comic you linked to is talking about homework and everyone acting like Annie should be doing homework. What other abuse is being justified here? 




> it is making a statement about how relationships between parents and children should work- "He's a weirdo, right? [...] but a young lass like annie, it's good to have her old man around".


What point are you trying to make? One character is sitting there arguing that point and they're being portrayed as an outsider who comes from a community that lives differently than the court.




> And in fact, people who continue to point out the bad things parents do should be ignored.


What? Again - I honestly don't understand what you're taking away from this. Annie understands that not everybody understands her father but she's done letting that bother her. Why is this a bad thing?




> And furthermore, having the attitude that you need to love your parents unconditionally even if they're abusive to you is mentally healthy.


Again - I feel like that's a strange takeaway. Annie has come to peace with the situation with her father. She's not ignoring the problems, she's not forgiving him. She's simply at a place where she accepts and understands. She loves him despite his flaws, despite his mistakes. She wont judge him for the things he can't control.




> The story around the choices characters make makes an argument of its own, and readers are rightly pointing out that that argument is bull, along with the way the story keeps trying to reframe past events and actions.


But you're not arguing against the content of the comic - you're making up wild claims about what it means then ignoring the story the comic is telling you because you've already decided what it all means. The comic shows you something bad and then comes back later and says, "Here's more information that explains why it's not black and white," but you don't seem to care and you are actively arguing against the characters caring about that additional nuance/complexity.




> And second, you realize there's a difference between choosing not to completely cut someone off and treating an abuser who is (in your words) unable to be a good parent as if they've done nothing wrong, right? Like, there are options other than everyone pretending Tony is a fully capable father despite every indication that he will continue to be uncaring and emotionally unavailable while capriciously making decisions about Annie's life.


Nobody is giving Tony a pass. Not even Annie. She knows that he's made mistakes and done things wrong but she has also come to understand that it's not entirely within his control. "It doesn't excuse it. Just explains it." The situation is complex. It's not good, it's not bad, it's not full of abuse, it's not about forgiveness - it's just complex and nuanced.

Also, when did I say Tony was unable to be a good parent? Maybe I did and I'm not remembering/seeing it? I know I said that he can't completely control his response to situations and that he may be unable to bring himself to apologize for his mistakes but I don't personally think that means he can't be a good parent. Hell, that being said I think Tony thinks he can't be a good parent. As I recall he thinks Annie would be better off without him but he basically had to return to keep her from getting kicked out of the school.




> Annie does not exactly lack for alternative parental figures.


Doesn't she? She has older people she looks up to but nobody that she's ever respected enough to listen to. She's done what she's wanted, ignored the rules, and constantly made decisions that were questionable at best. I'm not arguing that the amount of deference she shows towards her father is a good/healthy thing - I'm just saying that she has been lacking the presence of an authority figure that she actually treats as one.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Doesn't she? She has older people she looks up to but nobody that she's ever respected enough to listen to. She's done what she's wanted, ignored the rules, and constantly made decisions that were questionable at best. I'm not arguing that the amount of deference she shows towards her father is a good/healthy thing - I'm just saying that she has been lacking the presence of an authority figure that she actually treats as one.


She _does_ have/had Reynardine, Coyote, Ysegrin and Jones, but I would argue only Reynard made for a good role model, and in general what you're saying here is pretty accurate.

There's a few others, like the old elf mamma and Muut, but we don't get much screentime of them interacting with Annie. Most of the other adults, good role models or bad, she doesn't pay too much heed to. Elgamore, Anja, etc are all people who she clearly cares about, but their relationship with Annie is different than the one she has with, say, Reynard.

----------


## Murk

My perspective on the whole Tony-issue is that a lot of readers are - mistakenly - seeing _Tony_ as the topic of interest, rather than _Annie_. 

Like, they are expecting _Tony_ to go through a redemption arc or being judged. They think the narrative is validating _Tony_, or feel that the narrative (and author) should be criticising _Tony_. 

But the "narrative" doesn't care about Tony all that much. Tony is just a tool for the impact he has on the _actual_ topic of interest: main character Antimony. 
It doesn't try to excuse or criticise Tony, because Tony only matters for his impact on Annie. None of the other characters' opinion on Tony matters much either. As you can see, they only ever talk about Tony in the context of how he makes Annie feel. 
When Idra "defends" Tony, she's not _defending Tony at all_ - she's defending the fact _Annie's_ life has become better. And when Donald or the classmates "criticise" Tony, they're not _criticising Tony at all_ - they're criticising how _Annie's life_ has become worse.

So, when Annie looks straight into the camera and says that she loves him, this is not a validation of Tony at all. 
It's about her. It's all about Antimony. Antimony has found a way to deal with her absent/abusive father that works for her, and that's a victory. Not because it makes Tony OK or whatever, but because Annie has found a way to deal with it. 

It's like we have a chapter about Annie buying an umbrella against the rain. Such a chapter would not be "the narrative defending the rain". The narrative doesn't give an opinion about the rain. It just gives us a story about how the actually relevant character deals with the rain.

So the story is not about Tony. Never has been. 
It's not validating, defending or redeeming Tony - and it won't be criticising him either. It will only be validating, defending or criticising _how Annie deals with him_. 

When Annie stubbornly kept defending him during his absence, the narrative criticised this. 
When Annie literally cut off her emotional spirit part thingy so she didn't have to deal with her feelings about him, the narrative criticised this. 
And when Annie found a method to deal with her father in a way that works for her, the narrative defended this. 

So when people say this chapter excuses Tony's behaviour, I think they are missing the point - it justifies _Annie's_ behaviour, and the only justification it gives is "it works for her". 

And honestly, that's the only justification it needs to give. It works for her. 
It might not work for other people (for plenty of children with parents like Tony, staying the heck away from him would be the best solution), but it does work for her.



(Aside from all that, I do think the chapter was long-winded, and the story about a girl dealing with an imperfect father is less interesting to me than monsters, robots and magic - but that's a whole other issue)

----------


## DaFlipp

> I know this isn't an answer that people like, and maybe it's not even a correct answer, but there may be a rather simple one. What if he can't apologize? He is a man who hates himself for killing his wife and for nearly killing his daughter. He knows, and regrets, his actions but he can't control his ability to communicate with people. He can barely verbalize his awareness and regret of his actions when he is with a close friend and intoxicated to the point of passing out.
> 
> Tony is a victim of his own mental illness. Him just being able to 'fix' that about himself and work on improving the situation by communicating in a healthy manner completely undermines the premise of the character.


Today's comic seems to validate this theory, that his mind cage (executive dysfunction?) even prevents him from voicing an apology for his behavior.

----------


## wingnutx

> My perspective on the whole Tony-issue is that a lot of readers are - mistakenly - seeing _Tony_ as the topic of interest, rather than _Annie_. 
> 
> 
> (Aside from all that, I do think the chapter was long-winded, and the story about a girl dealing with an imperfect father is less interesting to me than monsters, robots and magic - but that's a whole other issue)


I think you are correct.

----------


## Ibrinar

Not directly related to current part (the long monologue just got me thinking about it) but does anyone else think Gunnerkrigg is kinda average story wise? Thinking back I think I enjoyed it mostly for its ambience and some cool characters. Like coyote is entertaining and has cool art, I think Zimmy is an interesting concept. The art can look really nice and interesting. But story wise I don't think it was particularly impressive. Or maybe I have just forgotten its strong points.

----------


## DaFlipp

> Not directly related to current part (the long monologue just got me thinking about it) but does anyone else think Gunnerkrigg is kinda average story wise? Thinking back I think I enjoyed it mostly for its ambience and some cool characters. Like coyote is entertaining and has cool art, I think Zimmy is an interesting concept. The art can look really nice and interesting. But story wise I don't think it was particularly impressive. Or maybe I have just forgotten its strong points.


I think one of its greatest strengths is portraying seemingly simple concepts in novel ways, whether through art or narrative (generally both). 

For an example off the top of my head: The non-reveal of Jones. Most authors would either have a concrete explanation for her in mind, in which case they'd explain it.... or they wouldn't, in which case they'd avoid even getting close to explaining it. But in Jones' big chapter, he somehow manages to combine these options into a fascinating, reverse-chronological narrative that just *keeps going* so much further than you'd expect, to really hammer home her timeless, utterly inexplicable existence.

See also: Coyote. Most trickster gods are portrayed with an emphasis on the "trickster" part of the explanation. I don't think I've ever seen one portrayed with as much, if not more, emphasis on the "god" instead. Because that's what makes Coyote stand out, at least for me - he has all the irreverent prankishness of most portrayals, but back it up with Coyote's raw reality-bending power, and suddenly those "funny" impulses become fraught with danger. And, of course, the visuals associated with that power are some of Tom Siddell's best work. 

It's still an ongoing mystery so I can't say for sure he'll stick the landing, but I've also really enjoyed his unique spin on the tired old stereotype of the "super-smart friend who can break the laws of reality with her inventions". Kat's inventions aren't just an easy way to solve the Problem of the Week, they're incredible accomplishments in-universe that, based on the hints we've gotten so far, hold mythic importance in the grand sweep of the story.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> but does anyone else think Gunnerkrigg is kinda average story wise?


Average in the actual meaning, not a subtle critique. It is neither particularly impressive nor particularly bad. I will say that there's a subtle mystery about what the court is, how nefarious it actually is, what its goals are, and how it relates to entities like Coyote, the teachers, and so forth that has been strung along this whole time that leaves me completely uninterested. That part of the story falls flat for me. 

I'm trying to remember if any webcomic I've read has really wowed me on the story. That doesn't seem to be their forte.

----------


## slayerx

> I find it very odd that people acknowledge Tony's mental problems and character flaws but then try to debate the 'proper' ways the character could have handled his mental issues and character flaws so that he would have been more likable. Isn't the entire premise of those issues that they can't be handled by the character in a proper way? Isn't Annie acknowledging that her fathers actions aren't OK but she gets them?


This is an issue of "idea vs execution". An author could come up with a good idea for a story, but whether or not that Idea works as  intended is based on how well the execute it. The IDEA of Tony's mental problems is fine but the execution that was flawed

The idea was that Tony has mental issues that make it difficult for him to express his true feelings to others which leads to him inadvertently hurting people who do not understand his intentions and feelings; including Annie. The problem as BRC points out is that Tom went too far with some of Tony's actions which made him seem too abusive; sometimes Tony's mental issues did not explain what he was doing to Anne. He gave a perfect explanation how Tony could have behaved that would have made his actions make more sense in retrospect and be more forgivable while STILL being seemingly cold and emotionally impactful for Annie at the time those actions took place. His mental issues would not stop him from sending a very simple non-emotional message, it would not explain why his first meeting with Anne was in the classroom. Heck it also does not explain why he does not tell annie WHY he's talking certain actions against her(Tony: "The forest is dangeorus you will not be going back", Annie: "But-", Tony: "no."). Without giving an explanation for the things he does to Annie is just makes his actions seem MORE punishing like he's just trying to take away the things she enjoys... Hecking thinking about it, its kind of a missed opportunity to not highlight that there are somethings that Tony and Eglamore would agree on when it comes to Annie. Drawing a comparison between Tony and Eglamore could help show that Tony was actually of the same mind as him, he just expressed it colder way that seemed indifferent

Annie SAYS that Tony's mental issues don't excuse his behavior and only explains it but the story and Annie ARE excusing his behavior. I mean that line is meant to explain why certain problems exist so that we can fix those problems, not accept them. Like trying to find out why a criminals might commit a crime so that you can make changes that will prevent future crimes; the criminals are still punished for their actions and are not easily forgiven since the explanation did not excuse their behavior. If however Annie feels that she will accept her father the way he is, then she IS excusing him for his behavior, and forgiving the way he acts. If annie did not think his mental issues excuse his behavior then she would not accept his behavior even if it was a result of his mental issues. I feel like the narrative wanted to have its cake and eat it too

As BRC said, its a storyline that ALMOST works. It fell hard at the first hurdle and tried to make up for it the rest of the race, but  readings can't ignore the broken leg its limping on.

----------


## Rodin

> She _does_ have/had Reynardine, Coyote, Ysegrin and Jones, but I would argue only Reynard made for a good role model, and in general what you're saying here is pretty accurate.
> 
> There's a few others, like the old elf mamma and Muut, but we don't get much screentime of them interacting with Annie. Most of the other adults, good role models or bad, she doesn't pay too much heed to. Elgamore, Anja, etc are all people who she clearly cares about, but their relationship with Annie is different than the one she has with, say, Reynard.


Reynardine would make a good father figure except he has no power to be one.  We see him try to take Annie to task for cheating, but he's owned by her and she's able to order him to drop it.  Part of the shock Annie had on her father's return came from a figure of authority suddenly appearing in her life after she'd been skirting or outright ignoring the rules the whole time she was at school.

On the Tony thing...all I can say is I disagree with everyone saying the story excuses his actions.  It shows a broken man who very nearly destroyed his relationship with his daughter because he can't stop grieving for his dead wife and blames said daughter on a deep level even he doesn't truly understand.  I likw him as a character who's done terrible things for complex reasons while not being a fundamentally bad person.  He's a far more interesting character than someone like Loup or even Coyote.

----------


## Gez

> Annie SAYS that Tony's mental issues don't excuse his behavior and only explains it but the story and Annie ARE excusing his behavior.


But that's the point. Tony's mental issues don't excuse his behavior, Annie admits that. She choose to forgive him anyway for her own reasons.

----------


## Ellen

On the one hand, cool that Annie is asserting herself and taking a firm line with Loup. That takes guts.

On the other hand, Annie does have a history of sometimes letting anger and aggression get the better of her. Right now, that could be suicidal.

----------


## Ionathus

> He didn't really give the two-Annies arc closure, he just ended it out of nowhere.


Bold of you to assume that the Two Annies events will never be coming back. Remember how neither of those Annies were the "original" one from this timeline? And the whole thing was done by Loup? My money's on there being more to this story.




> My perspective on the whole Tony-issue is that a lot of readers are - mistakenly - seeing _Tony_ as the topic of interest, rather than _Annie_. 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> It's like we have a chapter about Annie buying an umbrella against the rain. Such a chapter would not be "the narrative defending the rain". The narrative doesn't give an opinion about the rain. It just gives us a story about how the actually relevant character deals with the rain.
> 
> So the story is not about Tony. Never has been. 
> It's not validating, defending or redeeming Tony - and it won't be criticising him either. It will only be validating, defending or criticising _how Annie deals with him_. 
> 
> ...


I'm right there with you. All the accusations that "Tom is trying too hard to make us *like* Tony" fall flat for me, because it's very clearly not *about* Tony. Sure, it gives us some insights into his psyche, but what's important is how Annie uses that information to re-evaluate her father's behavior and decide how to respond. I liked Annie's talk at the end of that chapter -- it was good to get a glimpse into her opinion on the subject.




> On the Tony thing...all I can say is I disagree with everyone saying the story excuses his actions.  It shows a broken man who very nearly destroyed his relationship with his daughter because he can't stop grieving for his dead wife and blames said daughter on a deep level even he doesn't truly understand.  I likw him as a character who's done terrible things for complex reasons while not being a fundamentally bad person.  He's a far more interesting character than someone like Loup or even Coyote.


Yep, exactly. Keep in mind this is the same comic that finished a story with "yeah, Antimony, your mom cheated on Eglamore with your dad and that's how they got together. It was wrong. We decided to stay friends with them anyway. I don't have a good excuse for you. Sometimes people do the wrong things." 




> On the one hand, cool that Annie is asserting herself and taking a firm line with Loup. That takes guts.
> 
> On the other hand, Annie does have a history of sometimes letting anger and aggression get the better of her. Right now, that could be suicidal.


I may not particularly like Loup as a character, but the comic has done a very good job convincing me that he's extremely unstable and prone to lashing out. Even moreso than Coyote. I really don't like where this is going, for everyone's sake.

----------


## Squire Doodad

Loup is very much being "feral creature" today, much more than Ysengrin or Coyote ever were. He's not just attacking Parley, he's baring his fangs and charging.




> Bold of you to assume that the Two Annies events will never be coming back. Remember how neither of those Annies were the "original" one from this timeline? And the whole thing was done by Loup? My money's on there being more to this story.


The issue is more that the "recombination" of the Annies happened like flipping a switch, with next to no foreshadowing or context. All that happened was Rey was basically talking to people in the Zimmyspace, and then the Annies were fighting aaaaaaand...they're the same again? Surely there should have been a few pages of "oh hey they're merging". I assume the suddenness was the point, but it was a poorly executed point.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

> Bold of you to .


Well that kinda kills any chance of an actual conversation.  

Oh well.

----------


## Ellen

Ysengrim had some triggers but they were part of a complex personality. He was also capable of self-awareness, although Coyote made sure that self-awareness didn't impact his behavior.

I don't know if I should say Coyote has a _better_ side. He's a mythological trickster and is capable of waiting centuries or longer to complete a plan. He's aware of a much bigger picture than Loup is. It's _possible_ he likes individuals to be truly kind or benevolent. 

 It's _possible_he feels some responsibility towards the people of the forest. It's also possible he's just keeping them around till it's funny enough to kill them. Or both. I wouldn't put it past him to have kinder feelings mixed in with sadistic humor.

But, Coyote ultimately feels less dangerous than Loup. He has rules or a sort and doesn't seem to want to destroy _too many_ innocent bystanders. It may be that he needs them to stay alive to be an appreciative audience. But, I think it's also that Coyote is a god (for lack of a better way to put it). He is chaos but he is a kind of chaos that is part of the cycle of creation and destruction. Sometimes, when people talk about mythology that way, they emphasize the overall positive and predictable elements of that cycle. Coyote isn't that. But, he still fits into it.

Loup is violent and psycho and doesn't have any place on the _creation_ side of the cycle. 

He was also created and unleashed by Coyote, which makes Coyote ultimately responsible for him. He may serve some purpose.  It may even be a purpose that readers like us could recognize as necessary. Although, this may mean "necessary" the same way sharks are a necessary part of the ecosystem.

----------


## halfeye

> Although, this may mean "necessary" the same way sharks are a necessary part of the ecosystem.


There are niches that sharks fill that are a necessary part of various ecosystems, something will fill and fit those niches so long as they exist, which is probably what you are thinking of, but sharks themselves aren't necessary at all.

----------


## Ionathus

> The issue is more that the "recombination" of the Annies happened like flipping a switch, with next to no foreshadowing or context. All that happened was Rey was basically talking to people in the Zimmyspace, and then the Annies were fighting aaaaaaand...they're the same again? Surely there should have been a few pages of "oh hey they're merging". I assume the suddenness was the point, but it was a poorly executed point.


I disagree; I thought it worked quite well. Not every mystical event needs to blow the special effects budget, especially in a webcomic that's as esoteric as this one. IMO, it fits the comic's vibe quite well for a status quo to change suddenly without a lot of fanfare. 




> Well that kinda kills any chance of an actual conversation.  
> 
> Oh well.


Was it the turn of phrase? I've always used it (and seen others on this forum use it) as a rhetorical flourish, nothing more. If I came across as actually dismissive or offensive, I apologize.

----------


## Vinyadan

About the Annie Reunited, I found her speech to Jones odd. Not because of the content, but because of Annie, who is normally always holding something back. To me, it felt like she always was in opposition to her environment and people around her. Sad, spoiled, unregulated, aloof, playing with fire... And then she emerges mature enough to talk about her feelings and intentions.

It's possible that she's simply grown. It's possible that she feels good talking to Jones about feelings, both because Jones is a very non-overbearing mother figure and because she doesn't believe that Jones doesn't have feelings, so it's like telling her, "see? those!". 

However, compared to the usual Annie, I couldn't help but think that the one talking was neither Forest nor Court Annie, but a Doppelgänger having fun with fake sincerity.

----------


## Ellen

> There are niches that sharks fill that are a necessary part of various ecosystems, something will fill and fit those niches so long as they exist, which is probably what you are thinking of, but sharks themselves aren't necessary at all.


Yeah, it's the way things that can cause painful death may still be a necessary part of the world, much as I would prefer the sunshine and roses world where sharks act like vegetarian puppy dogs.

----------


## wingnutx

> However, compared to the usual Annie, I couldn't help but think that the one talking was neither Forest nor Court Annie, but a Doppelgänger having fun with fake sincerity.


That's how she struck me at first.

----------


## halfeye

> Yeah, it's the way things that can cause painful death may still be a necessary part of the world, much as I would prefer the sunshine and roses world where sharks act like vegetarian puppy dogs.


That's not another world, that's another universe, I'd like it too, but it's a long, long way away.

Wahoo!

*Spoiler*
Show

Coyote is back.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

The Shadow Men have some sort of plan.  

This could go all sorts of ways. 

Almost none of them good.

----------


## Ellen

On the one hand, I can see things going the Court's way. The Cournt and the Forest have been balanced not just in power but on the good/evil scale. After Loup trashing the Court and being violently psychotic, this may be where the balance swings back in their direction.

On the other hand, we may never find out what Coyote had planned if things go their way. 

Though, maybe Coyote's plan is for things to go the Court's way for a bit. Loup is the type not to care if he goes down in flames while taking out his enemies.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

This might be why the Court was doing all that work on manipulating aether.

----------


## PhantomFox

Pokeball, go!

----------


## Lizard Lord

> On the one hand, I can see things going the Court's way. The Cournt and the Forest have been balanced not just in power but on the good/evil scale. After Loup trashing the Court and being violently psychotic, this may be where the balance swings back in their direction.
> 
> On the other hand, we may never find out what Coyote had planned if things go their way. 
> 
> Though, maybe Coyote's plan is for things to go the Court's way for a bit. Loup is the type not to care if he goes down in flames while taking out his enemies.


I am pretty sure Coyote's plan was just to die so that he could experience it and then come back so that he could, y'know, not be dead.

I haven't seen anything that contradicts the idea that Coyote's schemes are just for his own whimsy and what he finds interesting. Plus Coyote said that dieing to find out what would happen was his intention and Coyote doesn't actually lie.

----------


## Ionathus

I am positive this statement is premature and presumptive, but...does anyone feel like we might be approaching the endgame?

I mean, ever since Jeanne was released, the Omega Device has felt like the last big mystery. Maybe you could include The Seed Bismuth as well. But all of this, and the last few arcs in particular...they've kind of had the vibe of tying up loose ends if you ask me.

----------


## Typewriter

> I am positive this statement is premature and presumptive, but...does anyone feel like we might be approaching the endgame?
> 
> I mean, ever since Jeanne was released, the Omega Device has felt like the last big mystery. Maybe you could include The Seed Bismuth as well. But all of this, and the last few arcs in particular...they've kind of had the vibe of tying up loose ends if you ask me.


I absolutely, 100% understand where you're coming from with this sentiment but I'm not sure if I completely agree. Something that continually throws me when I look through the chapter list is the scale of certain bits of the story. Jeanne has been gone for 20 chapters now. She's been gone for 25% of the current story. So it feels bit and momentous that that got resolved but, on the flip side, her removal didn't really change things. Sure, there were some side effects of her leaving - character development and stuff - but for the most part the comic just sort of... kept going. Similarly the 'dual Annies' thing went on for 10 chapters - 69-79 - and then just sort of... resolved itself. A completely new story element was thrown in, caused havoc, got resolved then got removed just as a sort of side content.

So a lot of the big stuff is moving and happening but, on the flip side, the story is still going along and it's still introducing new stories to resolve and explore.

I feel like it's sort of similar to Harry Potter. Each book/year at the school addresses the main story beats but the focus is on all of the stuff that happens parallel to that. Big story arcs are introduced in early years and resolved in later ones. It's an avenue to keep the story progressing while still being able to spend a lot of time focusing on the character arcs and set pieces. My theory for how the rest of this comic is going to go is something along the lines of:

Coyote gets 'captured'

2 chapters dealing directly with the aftermath

5-10 chapters of side content while coyote is captured (and the forest oppressed?)

2(ish) chapters of coyote getting freed/rescued and the aftermath

5-10 chapters of side content while tensions rise in the court

2(ish) chapters resolving the conflict between between the court and the forest (Seed Bismuth?)

5-10 chapters of peaceful living but with issues arising between the communities. Annie sides with the Forest, Kat sides with the Court.

Final Chapters dedicated to finally resolving the 'Kat is a god' story and exploring the final stages of the relationship between Kat and Annie. In anything besides Gunnerkrigg I would feel like these characters are destined to oppose each other but with them being written the way they are and being such good friends I feel like it's more likely that they'll work together to resolve whatever conflict comes about.

Obviously this is all a total ass pull - it's goes over the things I think are likely to be major story beats but also covers how those bits could be spread out. I could be wrong in so many different ways but I think that there's still a lot left to explore. I would guess that we're between 66-75% of the way through the story.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

I thought freeing Jeanne was what broke the barrier between the forest and the court.

----------


## wingnutx

> I thought freeing Jeanne was what broke the barrier between the forest and the court.


You are correct.

----------


## Rodin

> I thought freeing Jeanne was what broke the barrier between the forest and the court.


Kinda.  What separates the two is the Annan Waters, carved out of the earth by Coyote himself.  That divide existed for some time without any interference.  However, there was still traffic across it for those determined enough to do so.

The Court didn't like that, so they trapped Jeanne and her elven lover as rage ghosts to kill anyone who tried to cross.  She wasn't a barrier so much as a guardian.

When Annie freed Jeanne, she removed the guardian.  Coyote sensed this, and that's when he hatched his plan.  He'd been manipulating Ysengrin for years to enhance his rage with the humans, even devouring certain memories to form Ysengrin's personality in a very particular way.  He moves on to the next step and gives Parley and Smitty the lake water and goose bone.

Coyote then gives Ysengrin his power, and Ysengrin does the predictable - he attacks the Court.  His first act is to destroy the human made bridge and cause it's rubble to form a _natural_ bridge across the Waters.  That's when the barrier well and truly breaks.

Everything we've seen with the Two Annies, Loup, the incursions into the Court - all of it can be tied back to freeing Jeanne.

----------


## Murk

> When Annie freed Jeanne, she removed the guardian.  Coyote sensed this, and that's when he hatched his plan.


That's how it reads, but that would also imply that Coyote/Loups plan wouldn't work with Jeanne still there. Which I have a hard time imagining. 
Breaking the bridge and damming the canyon could have been done with Jeanne still there. Coyote (and other forest creatures) were always able to pass the bridge: Jeanne was only an issue if they tried to cross the water directly. 
In his first attack, Loup flew high _over_ the canyon. I doubt Jeanne would have done anything about that. 

Even if he _did_ somehow interfere (maybe by damming the flow Jeanne would have been able to climb out of the canyon, rampaging through the court and the forest?)... Would that mean Cotoye's/Loups powers are insufficient to deal with her?

----------


## Ionathus

> That's how it reads, but that would also imply that Coyote/Loups plan wouldn't work with Jeanne still there. Which I have a hard time imagining. 
> Breaking the bridge and damming the canyon could have been done with Jeanne still there. Coyote (and other forest creatures) were always able to pass the bridge: Jeanne was only an issue if they tried to cross the water directly. 
> In his first attack, Loup flew high _over_ the canyon. I doubt Jeanne would have done anything about that. 
> 
> Even if he _did_ somehow interfere (maybe by damming the flow Jeanne would have been able to climb out of the canyon, rampaging through the court and the forest?)... Would that mean Cotoye's/Loups powers are insufficient to deal with her?


That's an awful big assumption to make, and it's not really based on anything but your own speculation. The comic directly refutes it. 

Here's the stinger of The Other Shore, in the immediate aftermath of releasing Jeanne. Coyote is very clearly excited about the change.

Here's the beginning of Memories of the Worthless, right before Coyote initiates his bonkers plan to give Ysengrin his powers. Notice Coyote explicitly says "you've always known the river was impossible to cross" and then follows it up with "what would you do if you knew the ghost of the Annan waters was gone?" *The comic then spends a great deal of time and destroyed setpieces showing exactly what Ysengrin would do if he knew the ghost was gone.*

Jeanne was very clearly blocking Ysengrin and probably Coyote from interfering in the court. You assume this restriction doesn't apply to flying over it, or closing the river, or damming it. But _that assumption isn't backed up by anything_. The comic is very clear that Jeanne was the thing holding them back. Just because we only see Jeanne preventing one type of interference doesn't mean she was incapable of preventing other, related types of interference. 

It's incredibly clear that Jeanne was the one preventing all this.

----------


## Typewriter

Jeanne was preventing things from occurring but her as a character and plot point are complete - what has happened since is a consequence of her absence but her as a character/plot point is completely irrelevant to what is occurring.

----------


## Ionathus

> Jeanne was preventing things from occurring but her as a character and plot point are complete - what has happened since is a consequence of her absence but her as a character/plot point is completely irrelevant to what is occurring.


Absolutely. I'm just disputing the argument that Jeanne's release didn't cause the last 20 chapters of plot development. Which it totally did, in my opinion.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

> Jeanne was preventing things from occurring but her as a character and plot point are complete - what has happened since is a consequence of her absence but her as a character/plot point is completely irrelevant to what is occurring.


Whether it's relevant to *her* arc... is irrelevant to the question at hand.

----------


## Rodin

> Whether it's relevant to *her* arc... is irrelevant to the question at hand.


Yes, the original argument was "her removal didn't really change things".  I disagree heavily with that statement, based on what Ionathus said.

_Everything_ that has happened since could not have happened without Jeanne's removal.  Loup, the two Annies, the quests to retrieve the goose bone and the lake water (given by Coyote as part of his plan for Loup).  Heck, even the contract chapter requires Kat to have the arrow.

We've had 15 chapters straight of consequences for the removal of Jeanne.  Getting rid of her destroyed the status quo, and inspired Coyote to do his current plan.  Whether Loup would win vs. Jeanne is irrelevant - what matters is that _Coyote_ thought her removal was an important part of his plan to manipulate Ysengrin.  Everything he does after Jeanne's removal is towards that goal, and now we're seeing the endgame of that plan.

----------


## wingnutx

Annie would not be a psychopomp if they hadn't taken on Jeanne.

----------


## sihnfahl

> I thought freeing Jeanne was what broke the barrier between the forest and the court.


More like a moat and drawbridge.

Jeanne's Ghost forced anything from the forest to enter the court via the bridge.  They could not cross the Annan because Jeanne was the guard keeping them from crossing there.  And if the Forest started to act up?  Blow the bridge, no way for anything from the forest to enter the Court.

Presumably, Loup would not have been able to seal the river the way he did should Jeanne be present.

----------


## Ibrinar

I wondered at the start whether it would look for a while like they had outmaneuvered him but seems he just no sells it. Although he seems to be playing with time so he might still go for pretending.

Anyway I kinda stopped enjoying reading it during the last arc. But coyote remains enjoyable to watch despite being kinda horrible.^^

----------


## Murk

> Absolutely. I'm just disputing the argument that Jeanne's release didn't cause the last 20 chapters of plot development. Which it totally did, in my opinion.


Oh no, I completely agree with that. 

But like I said, that also means that Jeanne could somehow have prevented Coyote from doing any of this. 

I didn't say Jeanne _couldn't_ have prevented a giant earthquake damming the river, or that she _couldn't_ have prevented Loup flying high over the court and doing a city-levelling anime-punch, or that she _couldn't_ have prevented building-sized roots shooting through the cliff walls. Indeed, the comic clearly implies that she _could_ have prevented that. 
I was just wondering how.

----------


## 137beth

Oh my Coyote,
*Spoiler*
Show

Is this finally an answer to what "man's attempt to become god" is?  The Court is an attempt to steal Coyote's power?

----------


## Vinyadan

If Jeanne was part of the Court, and Coyote had promised not to attack the Court, then he couldn't (wouldn't?) do anything about Jeanne.

The question here is, why did Coyote believe that Loup shouldn't handle Jeanne? I am certain that Loup would have been stronger than her. Why did Coyote wait until the kids had released her?

My answer is that Coyote wanted _other events_ connected to Jeanne's liberation to happen. Kate in particular was put in motion, and new knowledge, questions, and access to the arrow resulted in her creation of a time loop that caused Annie's survival and the emergence of a new kind of robots. Renard is now a familiar, instead of a toy, and Coyote and Loup both have a plan for him (which may boil down to "I want my power back".)

There's probably more coming, and more that has already happened but hasn't been yet shown in its ramifications.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

IIRC, Word of God was that Jeanne at full power (fully enraged) could fight Coyote to a standstill. I think I saw that on the TV Tropes page?

Even if Loup is stronger still, that would seriously mess with his plans.

----------


## halfeye

> Even if Loup is stronger still, that would seriously mess with his plans.


Less subtle isn't necessarily stronger.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

> Less subtle isn't necessarily stronger.


Well, he's also got Ysengrin's powers, so theoretically he should be at least a little stronger. He's got less experience (and less composure), though, hence the "if".

----------


## Kornaki

So this whole thing was orchestrated so coyote could make the court look bad to Annie?

----------


## wingnutx

Coyote did it for the lulz.

----------


## Ellen

Something I noticed about the guy Renard took the body of.

We don't know anything about him, even his name. At first, that wasn't too surprising. But, it's been a while and we've had background stories on all sorts of things that seem a lot less important.

So, who was this guy? Renard didn't pick him because he was close to Surma. That would have been Tony or James. If it was all a setup, did the Court try to get Renard to use some of Coyote's power? If so, what was this guy's role in it? I'm pretty sure he had one.

----------


## Gez

> Something I noticed about the guy Renard took the body of.
> 
> We don't know anything about him, even his name. At first, that wasn't too surprising. But, it's been a while and we've had background stories on all sorts of things that seem a lot less important.
> 
> So, who was this guy? Renard didn't pick him because he was close to Surma. That would have been Tony or James. If it was all a setup, did the Court try to get Renard to use some of Coyote's power? If so, what was this guy's role in it? I'm pretty sure he had one.


We do know his name: Daniel R. Schiff, or Danny to his friends. As for his job, well, we do know it involved making regular surveys in the Forest, so some sort of assistant to the Court Medium perhaps?

----------


## 137beth

When Coyote calls the court official whose name I forget "failed cousin," is he saying that guy tried and failed to become a god?

----------


## Ionathus

This dude's seriously giving me the creeps. I would like him to go away forever, please.

----------


## Rodin

> Well, he's also got Ysengrin's powers, so theoretically he should be at least a little stronger. He's got less experience (and less composure), though, hence the "if".


Ysengrin's powers are mostly Coyote's powers though.  All of the tree stuff came from Coyote.  I don't think we've ever seen Ysengrin's powers outside of basic "I'm a Wolf" traits.

Loup not being able to maintain the integrity of the forest says everything about the difference in ability to me.  He has no clue how to handle Coyote's powers and wields them like a club.

The feats we've seen Coyote accomplish (shrinking the moon down to the size of a golf ball, creating the Annan Gorge with a single swipe of his paw, placing the stars in the sky according to legend) give me no doubt that Coyote _could_ have crushed the Court at any time had he wanted to.  He doesn't, because he's a trickster god and smiting your enemies isn't half as fun as screwing with them.

Loup in comparison is a toddler throwing a tantrum.  He's impressive compared to what Ysengrin was capable of, but nowhere near what Coyote could do.

----------


## Ellen

> We do know his name: Daniel R. Schiff, or Danny to his friends. As for his job, well, we do know it involved making regular surveys in the Forest, so some sort of assistant to the Court Medium perhaps?


I swear, I used to be able to remember things I'd read. . . .

OK, Annie's phrasing still sounds a bit odd, but I'm guessing she doesn't know the name of the man who died. Or else it just seemed awkward to toss the name in when people like me had forgotten it.

----------


## memnarch

> We do know his name: Daniel R. Schiff, or Danny to his friends. As for his job, well, we do know it involved making regular surveys in the Forest, so some sort of assistant to the Court Medium perhaps?


Reading a bit further past those pages finds this page. I find it neat that Reynard gets that power anyway later.

----------


## JavaScribe

So I assume this guy tried to reach godhood by becoming a Buddha, got close, failed because he was too malicious, proud, and power hungry, and decided to search for alternative, less virtuous paths?

----------


## Ellen

> So I assume this guy tried to reach godhood by becoming a Buddha, got close, failed because he was too malicious, proud, and power hungry, and decided to search for alternative, less virtuous paths?


The court seems to treat aetheric stuff as merely mechanical. I could see them coming to spiritual things the same way, treating enlightenment as an engineering problem. That kind of attitude might confuse emotional indifference and doing things in cold blood with overcoming desire.

----------


## JavaScribe

The purpose of the tooth sword has come up, and it's what many of us have probably already guessed.

----------


## wingnutx

I thought that it would be something along these lines.

----------


## 137beth

Finally it's mentioned!

Yeah, lots of people guessed it.

----------


## Rodin

I'm still at a loss for what Coyote's overall plan here is.

Step 1: Die.
Step 2: Have Loup go nuts on the Court.
Step 3: Have Annie use the tooth to kill Loup (along with any remaining Coyote-ness)
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Profit?

----------


## JavaScribe

His death and Loup's birth are probably bait.

Everything we know about the Court tells us that the rank and file are just regular people, studying the occult mysteries of the ether. The Court's mysterious leaders however, are creepy and probably sociopathic manipulators.

Loup is a rabid dog, scarier than Coyote but also less tricky. People are legitimately afraid of him, and in the Court's eyes, the crisis also provides them with an opportunity. I'm guessing Coyote created him to make the Court accelerate their plans and enjoy the resulting chaos when it all goes awry.

----------


## BRC

> I'm still at a loss for what Coyote's overall plan here is.
> 
> Step 1: Die.
> Step 2: Have Loup go nuts on the Court.
> Step 3: Have Annie use the tooth to kill Loup (along with any remaining Coyote-ness)
> Step 4: ????
> Step 5: Profit?


I mean, Coyote doesn't Lie, and he's said his goal was to Experience Death. 


Whether that means he'll die and then shenanigan himself back to life, or if he just intends to finalize his death

----------


## tyckspoon

> I'm still at a loss for what Coyote's overall plan here is.
> 
> Step 1: Die.
> Step 2: Have Loup go nuts on the Court.
> Step 3: Have Annie use the tooth to kill Loup (along with any remaining Coyote-ness)
> Step 4: ????
> Step 5: Profit?


I've assumed Coyote intends to come back to life at some point, and probably could do so whenever he feels like, but wants to have whatever he's doing for his amusement here finish playing out. Probably so Loup/Ysengrin finishes learning whatever lesson they're supposed to be receiving.

Or possibly he'll just stay dead and be a character that way. It's quite clear that being 'dead' in this world is nowhere near the same thing as 'stopped existing' or even 'can't interact with the living world', after all.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

If belief can create or empower a god, or even shape reality, retroactively, as has been implied in this setting, then killing a god may be somewhat impossible.

----------


## Rodin

> If belief can create or empower a god, or even shape reality, retroactively, as has been implied in this setting, then killing a god may be somewhat impossible.


Depends on how the system works.  For example, in American Gods there were multiple different versions of the various gods.  A god with immense power in Europe might have virtually none in Asia, and the two are distinct beings despite springing from the same source of belief.

If belief in Coyote means there will always be *the* Coyote, then he is effectively immortal.  If belief in Coyote means there will always be *a* Coyote, his death is a very real possibility.

There's also the issue of Coyote using his own power to kill himself.  Coyote says using the fang will "truly" kill them, implying a god-slaying power that goes above and beyond the usual scope of such things.  A power that slays the soul/ethereal presence, not just the physical body.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Depends on how the system works.  For example, in American Gods there were multiple different versions of the various gods.  A god with immense power in Europe might have virtually none in Asia, and the two are distinct beings despite springing from the same source of belief.
> 
> If belief in Coyote means there will always be *the* Coyote, then he is effectively immortal.  If belief in Coyote means there will always be *a* Coyote, his death is a very real possibility.
> 
> There's also the issue of Coyote using his own power to kill himself.  Coyote says using the fang will "truly" kill them, implying a god-slaying power that goes above and beyond the usual scope of such things.  A power that slays the soul/ethereal presence, not just the physical body.


Also of note is that Gods also sometimes "die", and that death can be woven into the fabric of their belief or their role in the world.
If this world has a Set, and Osiris, a Horus and an Isis, it's plausible to believe Osiris as a god is dead by Set's hand.
Though I can't say it is or isn't working like that, a lot of this is going to be contextual. But some of the Psychopomps died to Jeanne, and Coyote apparently died, and has plans to die for good, so I'm leaning towards gods dying being a rare but notable thing.

While the tooth being sharp enough to cut a shadow off the floor and then being sharp enough to cut a soul from a god's body is reasonable, it's also possible that Loup as he is now is a physical entity that possesses Coyote's power, but is still physical and only as immortal as Reynardine or Ysegrin would be.

----------


## Ionathus

> Depends on how the system works.  For example, in American Gods there were multiple different versions of the various gods.  A god with immense power in Europe might have virtually none in Asia, and the two are distinct beings despite springing from the same source of belief.
> 
> If belief in Coyote means there will always be *the* Coyote, then he is effectively immortal.  If belief in Coyote means there will always be *a* Coyote, his death is a very real possibility.
> 
> There's also the issue of Coyote using his own power to kill himself.  Coyote says using the fang will "truly" kill them, implying a god-slaying power that goes above and beyond the usual scope of such things.  A power that slays the soul/ethereal presence, not just the physical body.


I'm reminded of David Tennant's finale in Doctor Who -- where he acknowledges that regenerating means living on, but having to change as an entity. I can't remember the exact quote but it was something like "I die, and a stranger with a new face steals my life and walks away."

----------


## Ellen

After I realized how much I'd forgotten a couple a few days ago, I starter rereading the comic, and the comic's been leading up to what a hard action this will be for Annie for a long time.

When you reread it, you know that Annie is angry at Muut and the other psychopomps because she was the one who had to take her mother when she died and feels like she killed her (a feeling that gets worse when she learns she was draining her mother's life). Although she seems almost laid back about death, it's the opposite. Just the idea is deeply upsetting to her.

This is touched on early in the comic when she has a very strong reaction to the fairies' request that she kill them. Even when she knows they won't really die, she's visibly upset about it:

https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=144

Again, it's played for laughs, but even a game that focuses on pretending to kill people makes Annie lose sleep.

https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=199

But, I think her reaction when she takes Mort into the ether says it all:

https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1352

The point is Annie hates causing death or even pretending to cause death, more than any other character I can think of in the comic. And, I suspect Coyote knows this.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

Calling this one way in the air: when the moment comes, Annie is going to refuse.

Because, Coyote:
*Spoiler: She-Ra Season 4*
Show

----------


## Typewriter

I could see her wanting to refuse but Ysengrin reaching out and asking/begging her to do it.

----------


## Zazu Yen

> The point is Annie hates causing death or even pretending to cause death, more than any other character I can think of in the comic. And, I suspect Coyote knows this.


Indeed. Annies hatred of death has driven her from contact with the Psychopomps. It seems to me that this is an elaborate ploy not just to teach Ysengrin a lesson but to bring the Psychopomps back into her life.

----------


## Ellen

I think there's some method to Coyote's madness. 

He gathered up all the rage of Ysengrim, who hates humans and the court, to create Loup, who damaged the court and will also force Annie to kill him (and Loup will see it as a necessary thing when the time comes, according to Coyote).

Meanwhile, Coyote arranged for Reynardine, who cares a great deal for humans, to be at the court. I'm assuming there's some purpose in that as well, although I don't know what (I'm assuming it's something more than being Annie's mentor/protector). My guess is that part of this is to have Rey far away from what's about to happen in the forest.

I don't know why Coyote intends to die but my guess--and it's only a guess--is that it has something to do with ether. The court has been storing it up and disturbing the balance of nature. We've seen some of this through Zimmy, whose condition was getting a lot worse when the court was storing up the ether normally released in rain.

(And, is it possible that Zimmy is in the unbalanced state she's in because ether that should be part of the environment is missing? Thought that's just another wild guess)

Coyote is a major focus of ether and is about to be released into the comic's hereafter, which is literally made up of ether. So, is he restoring the balance? Or maybe taking the ether the court has stolen and releasing it back where it should be?

I think, whatever Coyote does, it will do something to the court (I'm assuming he'll harm it in some way, though it may not be his definition of harm).

----------


## DaFlipp

I had a somewhat distressing thought the other day that I haven't been able to dismiss, and wanted to put my predictions down here. 

*Spoiler: Prediction!*
Show

I worry one of our long-running cast members is going to get severely hurt, if not killed, in this chapter. 

Loup is *not* happy, and is about to lash out. Yes, the Shadow Men are going to face the brunt of his wrath, but Loup made it pretty clear that he sees everyone but Annie as fair game. And it's not like our heroes to just stand back and do nothing. 

My thought is that Eglamore, Parley, and Cvet are going to spring into action to evacuate as much of the folks present as possible. Parley can teleport people away one at a time, and Cvet is big enough to fly multiple people out of harm's way. 

That leaves Eglamore. I think Eglamore is going to do his damnedest to distract Loup while his partners perform the vital task of getting folks back into the Court. Annie will try to help too, but Eglamore would *insist* on getting her out of harm's way, too. 

Eglamore's had this job for a while. He is *good* in a fight, and we may find ourselves surprised at how well he stands up to the rampaging god.

But I don't, under any circumstances, see him winning.

(Of course, all this could be undone if Coyote's whispers to Loup send him off in some unpredictable direction. And since unpredictable is one of Coyote's favorite things to be, that may be the case!)

----------


## Ellen

Well, this is interesting.

I hadn't quite grasped that the Shadow Men had something more than a general plan going. I thought it was the usual. You know, abominations of science, learning secrets man was not meant to know, that sort of thing (or, in Gunnerkrigg, I suppose it's not so much "not meant to know" as "don't learn about aether just so you can use it as a power source, dweebs"), that sort of thing, with a pinch of Cold War (that might turn hot) with the Magic Woods on the side.

Instead, it's a program where even higher echelon members can be tossed out.

But, what's he being tossed out for? Use of magic? Unauthorized burning up of his aetheric energy allowance? Something else?

Whatever it is, he just went from cold, reckless back-stabber endangering everyone on the mission to the guy who sacrificed everything (whatever "everything" is to him) to save a life. That's a touch disorienting.

And how is what he's doing a "failure"?

And what did he just prove himself correct about? And how does saving a life or creating flower magic or some other aspect of what he did/is doing prove him correct?

It's chapter 84, page 34. Shouldn't I know what's going on by now?

----------


## Lizard Lord

I am guessing that he is being kicked out for using magic and considers this proving him right that they need to steal magic from the forrest and use it for themselves/humanity.

----------


## Kornaki

Now I'm wondering if these guys are all forest creatures that turned into humans, and they're going to get kicked out of that.

----------


## Spacewolf

It could be he's failed to detach himself from the world as a buddha candidate should, so he's failed to reach Nirvana and become a god but shown his morality.

----------


## tyckspoon

> And what did he just prove himself correct about? And how does saving a life or creating flower magic or some other aspect of what he did/is doing prove him correct?
> 
> It's chapter 84, page 34. Shouldn't I know what's going on by now?


This particular character has only actually shown up in like ..five pages so far? And I think his interruption into Coyote's chat with Annie is the first time he's actually been given any dialogue or action that would hint at whatever he has going on beyond just passing down orders from the Court and standing around in the background making grumpy faces. The revelation that the Court and the Shadow Men actually have etheric beings/magical practitioners and aren't just fumbling around trying to figure out how to control the Ether with tech is a new aspect of a group that was previously largely a background detail already - so.. no, you aren't supposed to know what's going on here yet, I think.

----------


## eee

She?

My bad.

----------


## PhantomFox

So... the knowledge that Loup doesn't have Coyotes tooth seems to be causing insanity or pain rather than anger.  Why do you think that is?

----------


## Ellen

He knows someone has the power to kill him and is not handling it well?

I wonder if Coyote told him Annie has the tooth or if he's saving that for a surprise?

----------


## Squire Doodad

Someone on the site's comments summed up Annie's feelings about this page pretty well




> * Raging flurry of roots * "It's cool, I can block that."
> * Distorting the spacetime continuum * "Uhhhhh I can't block that."


===

So. That happened.

This is...not going to go well, is it.

----------


## Lizard Lord

.....that's not a good sign.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

Yeah, the phrase "suitably ominous" comes to mind.

----------


## Ionathus

> So... the knowledge that Loup doesn't have Coyotes tooth seems to be causing insanity or pain rather than anger.  Why do you think that is?


My guess is that Loup thought he FINALLY had every piece of Coyote that had been taken from him. The goose bone, the river water...and now the tooth. He feels like he'll never be whole; that Coyote outmaneuvered him and scattered his pieces everywhere and he'll keep getting sent on a snipe hunt to track them all down, and therefore Loup will never have the full power of Coyote that he craves. 

And, on a more personal note, the last few pages are probably an appropriate artist's rendering of how *I'd* react if my teeth started falling out. Thanks to bad dental genetics and a root canal therapy conga line across the past few years, I think about my teeth falling out quite regularly. It's one of the most terrifying body horror concepts that might actually happen to me some day. 

That scene in District 9...*shudders*

----------


## Ionathus

Hmm, we've now had two fully-black pages in a row.

I stand by my recent assessment that we are, in fact, entering the endgame.

----------


## 137beth

> My guess is that Loup thought he FINALLY had every piece of Coyote that had been taken from him. The goose bone, the river water...and now the tooth. He feels like he'll never be whole; that Coyote outmaneuvered him and scattered his pieces everywhere and he'll keep getting sent on a snipe hunt to track them all down, and therefore Loup will never have the full power of Coyote that he craves. 
> 
> And, on a more personal note, the last few pages are probably an appropriate artist's rendering of how *I'd* react if my teeth started falling out. Thanks to bad dental genetics and a root canal therapy conga line across the past few years, I think about my teeth falling out quite regularly. It's one of the most terrifying body horror concepts that might actually happen to me some day. 
> 
> That scene in District 9...*shudders*


He's also seeing evidence Coyote was right in that the missing "gifts" Coyote gave aren't the reason Loup can't control the forest.

----------


## Typewriter

Spelunkerkrigg

----------


## Ellen

Had a dream the other night that James was really Annie's dad. It was a weird dream. There was an extensive back story which doesn't make sense with what's been in the comic.

But, now I keep thinking that's the back story while Annie and James interact in the tunnels.

----------


## wingnutx

This is how Tony can show he cares, action not mushy emotional interaction.

----------


## Typewriter

So... random question - but what's up with this discussion post lately? I swear I used to be able to come here and read several comments every M-W-F and often the days between, but lately we regularly have 1-2 weeks before spurts of discussion crop up. Is it just that the current pace/arc doesn't lend itself to discussion or is something else going on?

----------


## JavaScribe

> So... random question - but what's up with this discussion post lately? I swear I used to be able to come here and read several comments every M-W-F and often the days between, but lately we regularly have 1-2 weeks before spurts of discussion crop up. Is it just that the current pace/arc doesn't lend itself to discussion or is something else going on?


I dunno about others, but personally, I feel like the writing has gotten less creative and mysterious over time. I think I was starting to lose interest a few chapters before Antimony's father showed up. At this point, I might review the comic once every other month or so instead of the 3 times a week I used to.

----------


## eee

> So... random question - but what's up with this discussion post lately? I swear I used to be able to come here and read several comments every M-W-F and often the days between, but lately we regularly have 1-2 weeks before spurts of discussion crop up. Is it just that the current pace/arc doesn't lend itself to discussion or is something else going on?


A story often lives or dies by the enemies the hero faces.  And Loup isn't really that fun an antagonist.  Jeanne was terrifying and sad, Coyote was clever and you weren't sure what he was up to, Anthony you wanted to punch repeatedly even if you could understand why he was such a jerk.  But Loup is a crazy, mean spirited, irresponsible fool with tremendous power.  And he's matched against the Court, which appears to be the same.  With Annie stuck between them.  This is not a happy situation.  A lot of the mysteries of the series have been revealed, but what's left is even more confusing and unclear.  There's not much to speculate about because we don't know enough, there aren't new interesting characters (although Aata is showing unexpected depths and development), and great changes are happening that leave us uncertain.  You can't talk a lot if you don't have a lot to talk about.

----------


## wingnutx

> Is it just that the current pace/arc doesn't lend itself to discussion n?


That's what it is for me.

----------


## Typewriter

I know Loup was sort of a catalyst for me to... not lose interest but sort of... de-prioritize the comic? I still read it but I don't check the forums (or participate in them) as much as I used to. But I feel like Loup was a long time ago and it seemed like things have really just tanked lately, discussion wise, so I wasn't sure if it was him or something else.

Looking back over the recent chapters the pacing has been really a bit off IMO. In the last 16 chapters (66 onwards) we've had Loup created, the court attacked, and Annie split in two with the comic following a 6 month 'gap' with the Annie we followed. Then we spent a few chapters learning about what happened during the 6 month gap, a few chapters resolving the Annie situation, a few chapters dealing with 'side' things like Kats impending godhood, a couple of chapters addressing Loup, and now the Court is attacked again. It all just feels very rapid fire and... not inconsistent but something inconsistent adjacent.

It honestly feels like we're flat-out missing a chunk of content. Maybe that's intentional to cause a certain degree of confusion/disorientation for the reader so that they match the atmosphere of the story but unless a chapter soon somehow comes in and fills in the blanks in a meaningful way it all just winds up being a waiting game for things to 'get back to normal' for me.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> what's left is even more confusing and unclear.  There's not much to speculate about because we don't know enough


I think this part is a the primary issue. What's really going on with the court (specific to anything not already wrapped up)? What's going to happen with Loup (barring a straight-forward 'Annie kills him with the tooth')? Who the heck knows? If there's foreshadowing to either topic, it's subtle enough I've missed it. I could randomly guess, but that's all it would be (hot take: Everything we knew was a lie and the court will use previously unmentioned technomagic to send Loup back in time to be Surma's father... somehow :Small Tongue: ).

----------


## Typewriter

> I think this part is a the primary issue. What's really going on with the court (specific to anything not already wrapped up)? What's going to happen with Loup (barring a straight-forward 'Annie kills him with the tooth')? Who the heck knows? If there's foreshadowing to either topic, it's subtle enough I've missed it. I could randomly guess, but that's all it would be (hot take: Everything we knew was a lie and the court will use previously unmentioned technomagic to send Loup back in time to be Surma's father... somehow).


Oh come, that's absurd. Loup won't be Surma's father. The time travel will split Loup back into Coyote and Ysengrin and they will be Surma's mother and father.

----------


## Vinyadan

> A story often lives or dies by the enemies the hero faces.  And Loup isn't really that fun an antagonist.  Jeanne was terrifying and sad, Coyote was clever and you weren't sure what he was up to, Anthony you wanted to punch repeatedly even if you could understand why he was such a jerk.  But Loup is a crazy, mean spirited, irresponsible fool with tremendous power.  And he's matched against the Court, which appears to be the same.  With Annie stuck between them.  This is not a happy situation.  A lot of the mysteries of the series have been revealed, but what's left is even more confusing and unclear.  There's not much to speculate about because we don't know enough, there aren't new interesting characters (although Aata is showing unexpected depths and development), and great changes are happening that leave us uncertain.  You can't talk a lot if you don't have a lot to talk about.


To paraphrase Coyote, "It's a pity that Loup is less than the sum of his parts". He's less interesting than Isengrim, who had his own troubles and was dangerous but, in certain ways, admirable, and also was important to Annie (aka the Main Character) as a teacher. Loup is also less interesting than Coyote, who actually knew what he was doing, shared very little, and again had an important relationship with Annie.

More importantly, Loup isn't really his own character (yet). He's a pawn of Coyote. He's trapped in schemes he cannot understand, and, at the same time, he's too unhinged to harbour any shred of mystery. 

Bizarrely enough, this would make him a decent main character in a tragedy. However, he isn't; he's supposed to be an antagonist, but he's really more of a reliably bitter force of nature, who's been pulling off the same moves over and over (attack the court, forcibly move the forest creatures). Even doubling Annie (quite original, I must admit) didn't lead anywhere.*

In a situation like this, the "good" characters should be pulling the weight of the plot (inner conflict, that sort of thing), but I don't see it happening. You know, for example, massive conflict against the shadow men as Loup convulses in devastation until he self-destroys.

*but why did he do it? Was there ever an explanation? Because a Coyotesque decomposition into "the true Annie, the Annie other see, the Annie Annie sees" would at least have had a clear origin. "Hey, little miss Know-It-All, do you remember that time when...?"

----------


## eee

To be fair, if Coyote was not still a coherent force, it MIGHT have worked.  

Shell is thinking things over.

----------


## DaFlipp

> To paraphrase Coyote, "It's a pity that Loup is less than the sum of his parts". He's less interesting than Isengrim, who had his own troubles and was dangerous but, in certain ways, admirable, and also was important to Annie (aka the Main Character) as a teacher. Loup is also less interesting than Coyote, who actually knew what he was doing, shared very little, and again had an important relationship with Annie.
> 
> More importantly, Loup isn't really his own character (yet). He's a pawn of Coyote. He's trapped in schemes he cannot understand, and, at the same time, he's too unhinged to harbour any shred of mystery. 
> 
> Bizarrely enough, this would make him a decent main character in a tragedy. However, he isn't; he's supposed to be an antagonist, but he's really more of a reliably bitter force of nature, who's been pulling off the same moves over and over (attack the court, forcibly move the forest creatures). Even doubling Annie (quite original, I must admit) didn't lead anywhere.*
> 
> In a situation like this, the "good" characters should be pulling the weight of the plot (inner conflict, that sort of thing), but I don't see it happening. You know, for example, massive conflict against the shadow men as Loup convulses in devastation until he self-destroys.
> 
> *but why did he do it? Was there ever an explanation? Because a Coyotesque decomposition into "the true Annie, the Annie other see, the Annie Annie sees" would at least have had a clear origin. "Hey, little miss Know-It-All, do you remember that time when...?"


All of this is true, but I'd also like to offer that Loup is also less than the sum of his parts from a pure character design perspective. Like, every time I look at his introduction panel, I don't think "Ah, that is a perfect balance between the fluid impossibility of Coyote and the raw, destructive presence of Ysengrin". I think "You took two perfectly good characters and traded them for a Pokemon is what you did".

----------


## DaFlipp

That said, a possible topic of conversation/speculation: Any thoughts on who/what "Omega" might be? It's mentioned in today's comic and also in these comics. And I think maybe this was the first mention? 

From these snippets, a few noteworthy things:

1.) It's a "device". Robot? Machine? Something Beyond Mortal Ken But Still Manmade Somehow?
2.) Anthony doesn't seem thrilled about it, but whether it's about the device itself or just the necessity of him working on it, is unclear.
3.) Mr. Donlan was uneasy when Anthony started to talk about it - Anthony clearly thought he was worried about Court surveillance, but most likely he didn't want Antimony hearing too many details. Also: Mr. Donlan knows about it.
4.) It's important enough that both Loup and Zimmy had big ol' back-to-back splash pages acknowledging its existence. 
5.) The Shadow Men seem to be involved with it - and based on Shell's comment of "But Omega said...", they can either talk to it or at least get calculations from it. Calculations on the precise mechanics of stealing godhood, specifically.

(Sidenote: While wiki-diving to get info, I realized that the last panel of this comic was our first look at Shell. I know the art style has shifted over time but man I would not have pegged that as being the same character we're seeing now!)

I don't have any particularly interesting insights just yet, but figured laying out the data could help get the speculation gears turning?

----------


## Gez

> and based on Shell's comment of "But Omega said...", they can either talk to it or at least get calculations from it. Calculations on the precise mechanics of stealing godhood, specifically.


Another possibility is that there's several different but related Omegas. I mean, diesel engines are named after Rudolf Diesel, morse code is named after Samuel Morse, braille writing is named after Louis Braille, and so on. There's the Brannock device invented by Charles Brannock and the Odon device invented by Jorge Odon. Why couldn't the Omega Device be the pet project of someone referred to as Omega?

----------


## halfeye

> Another possibility is that there's several different but related Omegas. I mean, diesel engines are named after Rudolf Diesel, morse code is named after Samuel Morse, braille writing is named after Louis Braille, and so on. There's the Brannock device invented by Charles Brannock and the Odon device invented by Jorge Odon. Why couldn't the Omega Device be the pet project of someone referred to as Omega?


It wouldn't be a human name because it's the name of the last greek letter, and thus means Ultimate or Final.

----------


## PhantomFox

> It wouldn't be a human name because it's the name of the last greek letter, and thus means Ultimate or Final.


True, but isn't Zimmy's full name Zeta?

----------


## Iruka

> True, but isn't Zimmy's full name Zeta?


Yes, we already have Gamma and Zeta. So Omega could be some person's name.

----------


## 137beth

> True, but isn't Zimmy's full name Zeta?


The robots called her "Subject Zeta," but when did we hear that was her "full" name? :Small Confused:

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

My reaction to the new page:

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton; let's see if it pays off for them!"

----------


## Gez

> It wouldn't be a human name because it's the name of the last greek letter, and thus means Ultimate or Final.


People can have weird names in fiction (remember our heroine is named Antimony?), especially when we're talking about secret societies where people may be referred to as something else than what's on their state-issued ID card.

----------


## eee

Ah yes, when you've completely screwed up, don't try to fix your mistakes, just move somewhere else and leave all your problems behind.

[sarcasm]That ALWAYS works.[/sarcasm]

----------


## DeTess

> Ah yes, when you've completely screwed up, don't try to fix your mistakes, just move somewhere else and leave all your problems behind.
> 
> [sarcasm]That ALWAYS works.[/sarcasm]


I mean, it worked for them once before already...

----------


## Lizard Lord

I am mostly confused that she said ALL the humans of the Court would be moving. What about those that wouldn't want to?

----------


## Gez

> I am mostly confused that she said ALL the humans of the Court would be moving. What about those that wouldn't want to?


Given the state the Court is in?

After Loup's first attack it was basically like living in a war zone, with areas that are still safe, areas that are completely ruined, and in-between, areas that are mostly intact but potentially dangerous. They've lived through this for a while, and it's not a funny way to live.

Now it's simpler. The Court is not just in ruins, it's completely leveled. There is no Court anymore. And it's not like rebuilding is a realistic prospect as long as Loup is still around.

The choice has been taken out of their hand.

Now to be fair there is kind of one exception we can see: Annie herself. And maybe a few of her friends will want to stay with her.

----------


## eee

> I am mostly confused that she said ALL the humans of the Court would be moving. What about those that wouldn't want to?


The way the Court has been shown to operate?

Choice is not an option.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> It wouldn't be a human name because it's the name of the last greek letter, and thus means Ultimate or Final.


I used to work with someone called Alpha; I was friends with someone with a family name of Eighteen. You'd be amazed what you can get in names.

----------


## halfeye

> I used to work with someone called Alpha; I was friends with someone with a family name of Eighteen. You'd be amazed what you can get in names.


Yeah, some parents shouldn't have been allowed naming privileges.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

IIRC, there are 36 people currently named "," or "Comma" in the United States. And one "Semicolon".

----------


## Zazu Yen

> I used to work with someone called Alpha; I was friends with someone with a family name of Eighteen. You'd be amazed what you can get in names.


When I was growing up in the early 80's there was someone in the local phone book named "Void, Null". My friends and I debated if it was an actual person or some kind of glitch so we eventually tried calling the number and someone answered, we freaked and hung up.

In other news, who the heck is "this guy!"? Have we seen this before, I'd think I'd remember that face...

----------


## Clertar

Time for a SpongeBob crossover!  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## 137beth

So, uh, who is "this guy?"

----------


## wingnutx

Reminds me of a James B. Hunt painting.

https://www.instagram.com/NXOEED/

----------


## eee

> So, uh, who is "this guy?"


Eglamore has really let himself go...

----------


## 137beth

*Spoiler*
Show

So this other person is one of the robots with a new body.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> So this other person is one of the robots with a new body.


Both of them, I think.

----------


## Vinyadan

And they sound as creepy as one could expect, at least to me.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

And apparantly, a Dover Demon is a real thing. Well, as real as a cryptid is, at any rate. He's a long way from Massachusetts...

Mind you, so was Coyote...

----------


## Vinyadan

> And apparantly, a Dover Demon is a real thing. Well, as real as a cryptid is, at any rate. He's a long way from Massachusetts...
> 
> Mind you, so was Coyote...


A strange animal with long, slender legs, on top of a wall, with glowing orange eyes, after dusk? That sounds a lot like an owl to me. Maybe carrying dead possum to explain for the arms and fingers (actually the tail and legs of the prey) and the bulbous lower face (the possum's body). Seen from below, in the dark, it would be a really odd moving shape.

----------


## Kornaki

My guess

*Spoiler*
Show

They're digging out the CPU units so kat can give the martyrs of the court new bodies. Very cool.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> My guess
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> They're digging out the CPU units so kat can give the martyrs of the court new bodies. Very cool.


Sounds about right

----------


## eee

Ah, it's the pipe bot.

----------


## BRC

Calling it now, our redheaded book-sorter was/is Boxbot.

----------


## Iruka

I hope Lana meets Red.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Calling it now, our redheaded book-sorter was/is Boxbot.


That's be actually pretty funny, hoping for that.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

Um... Shell has eggs on her skirt?

----------


## Gez

Looks like fried eggs.

But what the heck, who is she?

----------


## sihnfahl

> But what the heck, who is she?


Yet another Convert.

New body, who dis?

----------


## Max_Killjoy

Isn't that the "shadowman" from the last arc, who stayed loyal to Atta even after he was exposed using "magic"?

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> Looks like fried eggs.
> 
> But what the heck, who is she?


I admit that I had to look it up, but she's Aata's "friend" - last seen here (4 pages), and (I think) first seen in the sequence starting here, and the relationship hets exposed in the strips starting here, here and here.

----------


## Gez

Oh right. Her. Just without her distinctive uniform, I guess she got kicked out -- or left.

----------


## DeTess

> Oh right. Her. Just without her distinctive uniform, I guess she got kicked out -- or left.


Or maybe she doesn't wear the uniform when not on duty?

----------


## Zazu Yen

Right, that's Aata's chief minion, and she doesn't look at all happy with what's going on here. Kat's operation to give the robots new bodies has probably flown under the Courts radar until now. they've been busy trying to relocate, it'll be very interesting to see what Shell (and probably Aata's) reaction to this is going to be. Shell said all the Court's humans were going to leave, they seem to think very little of the robots so likely were not planning on moving them, but now that the robots have human bodies things are going to get complicated. They are not of the Court, really, and they aren't of the forest, though it seems a convergence is inevitable at this point. Probably that was Coyotes plan all along.

----------


## slayerx

> Right, that's Aata's chief minion, and she doesn't look at all happy with what's going on here. Kat's operation to give the robots new bodies has probably flown under the Courts radar until now. they've been busy trying to relocate, it'll be very interesting to see what Shell (and probably Aata's) reaction to this is going to be. Shell said all the Court's humans were going to leave, they seem to think very little of the robots so likely were not planning on moving them, but now that the robots have human bodies things are going to get complicated. They are not of the Court, really, and they aren't of the forest, though it seems a convergence is inevitable at this point. Probably that was Coyotes plan all along.


I'm rather expecting that they have a cover story prepared. Something like, with Carver's approval, Kat has organized a volunteer effort to recover the CPU's from the robots that were destroyed during Loup's attack. Julliette can vouch for it. The court doesn't need to know that these "Poeple" are "not people"... It would also explain how they are able to get food and clothing for everyone, If Carver has been using his own influence to make requests for resources they would need for the former robots

----------


## Gez

> Or maybe she doesn't wear the uniform when not on duty?


Her beaming smile in the panel where she says she loves the dress does let us infer a genuine sincerity about dressing this way by choice.

----------


## eee

Arizona Shell?  OK.  I'm impressed she was able to figure out Arthur despite the... slight... change in his appearance.

----------


## Gez

I bet Arizona was the name of the dog.



Anyway, she did leave the Shadow Men after her boss was kicked out.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Her beaming smile in the panel where she says she loves the dress does let us infer a genuine sincerity about dressing this way by choice.





> Or maybe she doesn't wear the uniform when not on duty?


My takeaway from the dress, Annie commenting on it, and then her response, is that she got very used to wearing the shadowy organization uniform, and when leaving said organization either got a favorite outfit out of storage or went out and got some new clothes (in either case it being somewhat unique and noteworthy, potentially well outside of current fashion in the GC universe). 




> I bet Arizona was the name of the dog.
> 
> Anyway, she did leave the Shadow Men after her boss was kicked out.


Everyone knows the dog was named North Dakota.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

IMO, the suit was more flattering.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

I'm more amazed that she is wearing heels - I mean she's tall and thin to start with, so she must be towering over people now...

All her prior appearances she looked to be wearing flats.

----------


## Squire Doodad

I've felt slightly off with everything since the Mind Cage chapter...
I'm sure it'll make sense in retrospect, but it does feel like some of these chapters are missing one or two extra pages that would explain the flow of events better.

On the other hand, do you guys think we're going to actually follow the Court to its new location? It feels like we're nearing a climax, and we've had two world-changing events (though the second has thus far been smaller scale impact).
Annie has one or two years left, but I think that's irrelevant now, the focus is more on the actual in-the-now events and has been since Loup came into play.

----------


## Typewriter

> I've felt slightly off with everything since the Mind Cage chapter...
> I'm sure it'll make sense in retrospect, but it does feel like some of these chapters are missing one or two extra pages that would explain the flow of events better.
> 
> On the other hand, do you guys think we're going to actually follow the Court to its new location? It feels like we're nearing a climax, and we've had two world-changing events (though the second has thus far been smaller scale impact).
> Annie has one or two years left, but I think that's irrelevant now, the focus is more on the actual in-the-now events and has been since Loup came into play.


I feel like, for a while now, the pace has been very off. Things were set up, explored, dissected, and resolved over a period of years. Nothing ever felt 'rushed' because everything happened in its time. But suddenly things are just sort of 'happening' and then being... dropped? Relegated to secondary? Resolved without resolution? Set aside? I don't know how to phrase it exactly. Chapter 81 ended with what I thought was the start of a war, chapter 82 was about people recovering from the initial attack, and now chapter 83 has just sort of 'moved on' from what seemed to be going on and is discussing other stuff. The transitions have become jarring because instead of things being wrapped up in a logical 'fully resolved' manner (Jeanne) they're just sort of being hand waived away (second Annie).

As for the second location - I doubt that the story is going to go that way, at least I hope it doesn't. Most of the plot points I'm interested in are feeling closer and closer to resolution and I can't help but feel that a 'move' would just open up new ones and I don't think I care about opening up new threads. If that does happen I'd probably drop the comic from my 'regulars' list and would just check in in a few years when it was done. Personal preference though, not saying it's 'bad' or anyone else is 'wrong' if they like the idea of a new Court.

----------


## Max_Killjoy

Yeah, it has felt like things have just been "resolved now, thanks, move on" far more often recently... the resolution of "two Annies" came out of nowhere.

----------


## Typewriter

> Yeah, it has felt like things have just been "resolved now, thanks, move on" far more often recently... the resolution of "two Annies" came out of nowhere.


It bothers me so much. I spent probably a year not caring for the 'two Annies' thing because it felt like such a temporary concept that I assumed it was just going to disappear. But it didn't. It kept going and going and going and I really started to appreciate it for that fact. For taking such a transient concept and making it a core part of the story. And then it just disappeared.

----------


## BRC

I'll agree on the Two Annies, but this sequence doesn't bother me.


We ended with Loup attacking the court, then vanishing. The Forest Creatures are unfrozen, the Court has been wrecked but is mostly intact, ect ect. 


What we've seen so far with this chapter is one perspective on what's happening during this period, with "New Humans" digging up old robot chips for Kat to build new bodies for. 

This establishes one of the main things at play in this Post-Loup era: A growing following of former robots recovering personality chips for Kat.


We follow those robots to Annie and the others, who are giving us the perspective on 'What is the Court Leadership (The Shadow Men) doing during this time". The answer we just got is "Looking for a new source of Aether to tap into for their plan to establish a new Court, now that they can't steal Coyote's"

The other big hanging questions are "What are the Forest Creatures up to" and "What about the rest of the Court residents".

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> I'll agree on the Two Annies, but this sequence doesn't bother me.


None of it really bothers me, but then I only recently started following this comic so I read almost all of the story up to the last few pages of _Chapter 82: The Forest Released_ as I would a graphic novel series. Read like that there didn't appear to be any pacing issues. It is one of the drawbacks of getting your story one page at a time...

From that perspective, the two Annies did all they needed to do:
Establish Loup's powers and abilitiesExpose a side of her father's character.Deal with some of Annie's internal issues.Demonstrate the level of Zimmy's abilities.Show how unstable Loup is when things don't go the way he expects (when Annie is reintegrated) - which was not one of Coyote's weaknesses.




> We follow those robots to Annie and the others, who are giving us the perspective on 'What is the Court Leadership (The Shadow Men) doing during this time". The answer we just got is "Looking for a new source of Aether to tap into for their plan to establish a new Court, now that they can't steal Coyote's"


We had that stated openly at the end of Chapter 82.
*Spoiler: Speculation*
Show


I think Shell is here to tell Annie that the Court is going after Zimmy.

They have both been heavily foreshadowed, but I think the next two stages will be:
Defending Reynard from Loup (as he still has a part of Coyote in him)Defending Zimmy from the Court (as she is going to be their next ether source)

----------


## Squire Doodad

> None of it really bothers me, but then I only recently started following this comic so I read almost all of the story up to the last few pages of _Chapter 82: The Forest Released_ as I would a graphic novel series. Read like that there didn't appear to be any pacing issues. It is one of the drawbacks of getting your story one page at a time...
> 
> From that perspective, the two Annies did all they needed to do:
> Establish Loup's powers and abilitiesExpose a side of her father's character.Deal with some of Annie's internal issues.Demonstrate the level of Zimmy's abilities.Show how unstable Loup is when things don't go the way he expects (when Annie is reintegrated) - which was not one of Coyote's weaknesses.


The complaint here is that while the bulk of the Two Annies subplot was really nice, the actual conclusion to it was too sudden and unexpected.
The entire time they were fighting, we moved to Gamma and Rey talking, followed by Zimmy chatting with them a little. But then we get "And I know a something that will help Carver understand herself a little better" followed by a cut to Gamma and Zimmy sitting together and Annie re-fused. It caught people off-guard to the point that the comments section was filled with people who weren't aware of what had happened.

It feels as though having, say, 3 pages of Zimmy going down and talking to the Annies and fusing them would have made sense, or perhaps having the chapter after be Zimmy getting the two together and offering to do it and then, well, fusing them. I don't mind the fighting being largely off-screen, but that the actual climax of the book's main subplot being wholly off-screen feels wrong.




> We had that stated openly at the end of Chapter 82.
> *Spoiler: Speculation*
> Show
> 
> 
> I think Shell is here to tell Annie that the Court is going after Zimmy.
> 
> They have both been heavily foreshadowed, but I think the next two stages will be:
> Defending Reynard from Loup (as he still has a part of Coyote in him)Defending Zimmy from the Court (as she is going to be their next ether source)


This seems like the most logical conclusion, though it does make the "across the ocean" line a bit of a red herring (not that I'm complaining). Maybe just "Humans will leave the court, to a new source of Ether" would be sufficiently to the point, idk.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> The complaint here is that while the bulk of the Two Annies subplot was really nice, the actual conclusion to it was too sudden and unexpected.
> 
> ...
> 
> It feels as though having, say, 3 pages of Zimmy going down and talking to the Annies and fusing them would have made sense, or perhaps having the chapter after be Zimmy getting the two together and offering to do it and then, well, fusing them. I don't mind the fighting being largely off-screen, but that the actual climax of the book's main subplot being wholly off-screen feels wrong.


Oh, I know. I'm not saying that a bit more detail wouldn't have been nice, just that it paces differently when first read at once, rather than a page every other day.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Oh, I know. I'm not saying that a bit more detail wouldn't have been nice, just that it paces differently when first read at once, rather than a page every other day.


Yeha, that's a good point. I'm sure this will flow at least a little better in the book.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

So... He rejected the Ether to join a group of people who are trying to give up the Ether, but who still intend to steal a whole bunch of Ether from some source or another to move away from the Ether to another place that has Ether.

Oh well... At least it _sounds_ like some form of Zen...

----------


## Max_Killjoy

> So... He rejected the Ether to join a group of people who are trying to give up the Ether, but who still intend to steal a whole bunch of Ether from some source or another to move away from the Ether to another place that has Ether.
> 
> Oh well... At least it _sounds_ like some form of Zen...


Ether way, I don't get it.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> So... He rejected the Ether to join a group of people who are trying to give up the Ether, but who still intend to steal a whole bunch of Ether from some source or another to move away from the Ether to another place that has Ether.
> 
> Oh well... At least it _sounds_ like some form of Zen...


Pull out the jargon, and we're left with the forces of Technology/Order/Reason not really liking or understanding Magic, but knowing it exists and has power; and wanting that power for themselves to help create a more Technology/Order/Reason-friendly world (or go to a part where only they are using whatever powers magic for their Technology/Order/Reason ends). Reminds me of Mage: the Ascension/wakening or stuff like that.

----------


## BRC

I think the key to understanding the Shadow Men is to look back at what we already know about the setting. 

So, The Court was founded on the principle of Etheric Science, the impossible technologies of the Court are made possible by combining The Ether and mundane Science and Engineering. 

Since then, they have learned that the Ether can be extracted, measured, and used, but not Understood in any real way. By it's nature it defies understanding.

The Shadow Men therefore reject The Ether, they cannot understand it, therefore they cannot trust it. The reliable uses of it may stop working tomorrow. For all they know the things they can reliably do with it, like Parley's Teleportation, only happen at the whim of some powerful entity like Coyote. 

The Shadow Men hate that, but the Ether is baked into the very heart of the Court. Dragonslayers and ghosts and psychics are everywhere. Heck, the Robots themselves are magical in nature. 


So they want to start over, they want to create a new Court, one where they understand everything that's going on. However, so much of what makes Gunnerkrigg Court possible is based on the Ether that they can't just go cold-turkey with the Ether, that would just make them another MIT or whatever.  

Their solution, as far as I guess, is to Steal a massive amount of Etheric energy to use as the basis of their New Court, then take it far away from any godlike entities. The Court was built in the Gillette Wood, to make use of the ample supply of Etheric energy found there, which means that they don't control it. This New Court would run it's etheric technologies off the battery of stolen power they brought with them, something safe and controlled.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> Ether way, I don't get it.


The best kind of Zen. Also, good pun.

EDIT:



> The Court was built in the Gillette Wood, to make use of the ample supply of Etheric energy found there, which means that they don't control it. This New Court would run it's etheric technologies off the battery of stolen power they brought with them, something safe and controlled.


...Right up until the battery runs flat.

I assume that there are other revelations to come that will make this make sense.

Oh, random thought while I was half-awake this morning: Zimmy reversed Loup's splitting of Annie, and Loup was surprised (and angry, 'natch) about it. Where does that put Zimmy on the power scale?

----------


## Ellen

1) I'm assuming "not allowed to go" and "not alive to go" are synonyms in this case.

2) And, by "go," I wonder if they mean, "Wipe away every sign of anything that ever used ether," including the forest, people like Annie, etc.

3) Of course, it's also possible they have some way of their own to use ether (or are hoping they can use it) and will wipe out the competition. Envy has pushed folks to do things like that in the past. But, I'm still betting on etheric armageddon.

4) Since ether seems to help the world go round and also plays a role in the afterlife in this story, that would be a very, very bad thing.

5) I think the court managed to corrupt a bodhisattva. I'm not Buddhist, but I thought the flaws of our world (including inequality) were supposed to be driven by desire or craving. The envy over etheric abilities would seem to be right up there. They've got a bodhisattva who is working for a group driven by jealousy and desire. To serve them, he's willing to not use his abilities to end suffering (or he is in theory) and considers helping others wrong if it means using the extra abilities he's been granted to do so.

6) If being left behind is fatal, I see why not letting that happen was the bribe/threat that made Annie's dad cooperative. Not sure what he knows about this--he doesn't seem to trust the court, either--but I think he knew Annie was in danger.

----------


## 137beth

IIRC, Zimmy said she thought the Court was almost done with her.  Presumably that means she won't be allowed in the new Court, since she can use the ether.




> 6) If being left behind is fatal, I see why not letting that happen was the bribe/threat that made Annie's dad cooperative. Not sure what he knows about this--he doesn't seem to trust the court, either--but I think he knew Annie was in danger.


But Annie can use the ether, so it would seem she won't be allowed in the new Court no matter what.  I think we need another info-drop to make sense of what is going on.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> 1) I'm assuming "not allowed to go" and "not alive to go" are synonyms in this case.
> 
> 2) And, by "go," I wonder if they mean, "Wipe away every sign of anything that ever used ether," including the forest, people like Annie, etc.


Why would we assume either of these, rather than _'we're leaving for safer shores, and you can't come with us?'_ It seems like Shell would be a little more actively upset about her (or at least Aata) not going.

----------


## Gez

So the Shadow Men don't know about how Kat is actually an Ether-user too? They should have been clued by how nobody understood how her antigravity device works.

----------


## Lizard Lord

I mean...there is surely no way Kat is leaving her best friend, her girlfriend, her life's work, and nearly all of her other friends as well actually. All of those are disqualified for either being either users, non-humans, or both. (At least i assumed talking to animals is ether use.)

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> So the Shadow Men don't know about how Kat is actually an Ether-user too? They should have been clued by how nobody understood how her antigravity device works.


I'm not totally convinced _Kat_ knows she's got anything to do with the Ether.

----------


## Kornaki

This plan doesn't make a ton of sense. Do we know... Anyone who would go?

----------


## DeTess

> This plan doesn't make a ton of sense. Do we know... Anyone who would go?


It makes a lot of sense for the court as a whole(given how they are portrayed I'm sure lots of people that have never been on screen would want to go) but since most main characters wouldn't want to leave, I doubt the story will follow the exodus if it occurs.

----------


## Ellen

> Why would we assume either of these, rather than _'we're leaving for safer shores, and you can't come with us?'_ It seems like Shell would be a little more actively upset about her (or at least Aata) not going.


I'm assuming Shell and Aata aren't on the need to know list.

From what we've seen ether users can show up anywhere. Also, it seems like the court should already have the means to pack up and relocate without all this work. Sure, they'd leave some buildings behind, but Loup has seriously damaged those already. Collect your insurance and build elsewhere (yes, that's assuming they have coverage against supernatural beings attacking. But, given the neighborhood, they should).

----------


## Squire Doodad

I second the notion that the exodus will not be followed by most of the current cast.
However, if this means there will be only a few dozen of the humans left in the current court area, that may mean this conflict with Loup will be the climax, as opposed to one last story arc after Loup is gone centered around Zimmy and "Omega".
We're close either way...

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

Hmmm... Remembering Shell's comment here, I wonder if this is Aata at least trying to make sure that the non-court folk aren't suddenly left hanging.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Hmmm... Remembering Shell's comment here, I wonder if this is Aata at least trying to make sure that the non-court folk aren't suddenly left hanging.


Given his history as a bodhisattva, are you surprised?

----------


## Max_Killjoy

If Aata is what it's implied he is, then there's also some things to learn about Coyote (or the fragment of Coyote) in the way he treated and commented on Aata.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> If Aata is what it's implied he is, then there's also some things to learn about Coyote (or the fragment of Coyote) in the way he treated and commented on Aata.


The bitterness is likely in regards to Aata's views of the Ether. Aata may well have privately resented not being allowed to use the Ether at all...or maybe he resented that it was a part of him?
He may be on our protagonist's side in the future, but it's plausible the fragment was making the same conclusion - Aata not being allowed to use the Ether was because of jealousy from the Court. And, as a result, much of Loup's wrath is coming in part because of said jealousy.

----------


## sihnfahl

> The bitterness is likely in regards to Aata's views of the Ether.


Or that Aata rejected it in favor for the Court.




> Aata not being allowed to use the Ether was because of jealousy from the Court. And, as a result, much of Loup's wrath is coming in part because of said jealousy.


Jealousy, probably not.  Remember, they were trying to manipulate the ether using machines, rather than 'abilities'.  He most likely wasn't allowed to use the ether because it would skew their results during testing by drawing in ether naturally, rather than through mechanical means.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Jealousy, probably not.  Remember, they were trying to manipulate the ether using machines, rather than 'abilities'.  He most likely wasn't allowed to use the ether because it would skew their results during testing by drawing in ether naturally, rather than through mechanical means.


Hmm, good point. Pragmatism wins again!

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> Given his history as a bodhisattva, are you surprised?


Not especially - Less by being described as a bodhisattva, more with his dealings with the fae a few pages earlier when he had nothing to gain. Not much to go on, true, but after a major disaster he was still prepared to be polite to the two fae.

----------


## Vinyadan

> The bitterness is likely in regards to Aata's views of the Ether. Aata may well have privately resented not being allowed to use the Ether at all...or maybe he resented that it was a part of him?
> He may be on our protagonist's side in the future, but it's plausible the fragment was making the same conclusion - Aata not being allowed to use the Ether was because of jealousy from the Court. And, as a result, much of Loup's wrath is coming in part because of said jealousy.


At the moment, I think the bitterness really referred to the injustice of the ether, which won't be accessible to everyone. Aata would be bitter towards this fact, because of his kindness towards other people.

Coyote also calls him cousin, so I assume that he sees him as himself, born from people's beliefs. And failed because Aata didn't embrace his own nature and instead is living like any other man. 

By the way, Aata tryng to be just a human reminds me of what Ysengrin said after Coyote revealed his great secret: "Does [Coyote] think we would be mere simple minded animals were it not for humans? Impossible. I cannot bear the thought." Besides how Aata might be feeling about his own situation, I can't help but feel that the Shadow Men are short-circuiting the process. If powers are due to belief, if everyone believed that every human has a connection to the ether, then maybe it would really happen. Instead, they force their adherents to act as if they had none, reinforcing the belief that men have no connection to the ether.

----------


## sihnfahl

Oh.  Hi Loup.

Who'd have guessed he got to that point?

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

It's not a good sign, is it...

I went back to "She Gave Us An Ocean" to see if Loup got in there, but there's no sign of it - so must be more recent.

----------


## eee

> Oh.  Hi Loup.
> 
> Who'd have guessed he got to that point?


He's acting smart.  For once.  Whatever Coyote told him must have rocked him to the point he decided being ego-stupid was a bad idea.

----------


## Lizard Lord

I reread it just to make sure, and Kat never actually met that form. Admittedly I am unsure to what (if any) degree of making human bodies Kat has a direct hand in vs. just making the process automated so it is possible she wouldn't realize he wasn't one of the former robots anyways.

----------


## Zea mays

Nice parallel to Renard posessing a random court schmo to woo Surma.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Admittedly I am unsure to what (if any) degree of making human bodies Kat has a direct hand in vs. just making the process automated so it is possible she wouldn't realize he wasn't one of the former robots anyways.


That was in the chapter 'She Gave Us An Ocean'

They can customize their appearances.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

Hmmm. Shell went from "Thank you. I love this dress." to "This old thing? Why, I only wear it when I don't care how I look.".

She's putting on some form of act, but for who and why? Well, apart from Aata, of course...

----------


## Ibrinar

Well she is saying the second line while posing.

----------


## hungrycrow

> Hmmm. Shell went from "Thank you. I love this dress." to "This old thing? Why, I only wear it when I don't care how I look.".
> 
> She's putting on some form of act, but for who and why? Well, apart from Aata, of course...


I think the first time she was too riled up to put on false modesty.

----------


## sihnfahl

Well, now we're seeing Coyote's Whispers to Loup.

Ho boy, this is going to be fun.

----------


## 137beth

So it seems Loup can't see what Zimmy can see in Kat.

----------


## Vinyadan

Has Kat ever created consciousness? I think she's done an incredible job with the bodies, but I don't remember her forging new chips.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> So it seems Loup can't see what Zimmy can see in Kat.


I think most creatures have to conciously look into the Ether to see Kat's other form. Zimmy, on the other hand, looks like she doesn't have a choice.




> Has Kat ever created consciousness? I think she's done an incredible job with the bodies, but I don't remember her forging new chips.


I think part of the point of She Gave Us An Ocean was that once the robot is embodied, it starts to expand into the body, mind included. The robots are already conscious - they just need room to expand.

----------


## eee

Oh.  Didn't expect Loup to do THAT.

You'd think, if she's read so many books, she'd have some idea of the less savory aspects of male behavior.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Oh.  Didn't expect Loup to do THAT.
> 
> You'd think, if she's read so many books, she'd have some idea of the less savory aspects of male behavior.


She seems to have the basics of guy+girl, but maybe the whole 'and some guys don't need the crush part' may have been lost in translation. They are in kids bodies and previous to this fiasco were in a school facility. It's possible that a lot of the books were Archie-comics level understanding of teenage romance.

I guess it kind of makes sense to me in retrospect that the guy defined by impulse control issues might turn going undercover into becoming the mask. I wonder if he's going to fall for (or at least develop real affection for) this girl and that will be plot-relevant to how he is stopped.

----------


## eee

It's early to say I think I'm starting to like this new version of Loup.  But I think I'm starting to like this new version of Loup.

----------


## sihnfahl

> It's early to say I think I'm starting to like this new version of Loup.  But I think I'm starting to like this new version of Loup.


Sometimes all one needs is a new perspective, with nobody around you knowing your past and your 'reputation'.

----------


## Vinyadan

I'm pretty sure that he did do the same thing once, when Creepy Jack was getting too close to Antimony.

----------


## Shadow of the Sun

> I'm pretty sure that he did do the same thing once, when Creepy Jack was getting too close to Antimony.


It's in the text below the image, so... :P

----------


## Vinyadan

> It's in the text below the image, so... :P


Lol, I hadn't noticed. There also was another time, however, if somewhat sillier: when Jack proposed he and Annie removed their clothes to be sure not to be tracked, and Reynard went, "Not on my watch, young man!"

----------


## hajo

Loup is being led to the knowledge of atoms and computers.
This looks like a trap  :Small Tongue:

----------


## sihnfahl

> This looks like a trap


Oh, it's going to be worse.

Like when Loup realizes that human belief creates reality.

Atoms exist because humans believed that everything is made of atoms.

Everything works that way because humans BELIEVE it works that way.

----------


## halfeye

I am not impressed that Gunnerkrigg Court is now behind a semi-cookie wall.

----------


## eee

If Omega was as good as Tony says it was, and it was meta enough to not merely predict the future but know what effects its orders would have on future events, it is possible Surma and Tony's camping trip was engineered precisely to bring about their relationship and Annie's birth.  Maybe Kat's existence was set up the same way.  That is chilling.

----------


## Kornaki

It never occurred to me that this was a fully functional operating device. I thought it was more experimental.

----------


## 137beth

Seems Loup has more Coyote in him than he'd like to admit.

----------


## KatsOfLoathing

With what these past two chapters seem to be suggesting, having human-Loup become Annie's new love interest never would've even registered as a blip on my theorizing radar, and yet it kind of makes sense in this context? We've had similarly oddball pairings in this comic before (Shadow 2 and Robot, for one). 

Interested to see if this new source of perspective will result in Loup gaining some (ahem) humanity, given the many parallels that are getting drawn with Renard's character arc, or if he'll end up flying even further off the deep end.

----------


## Lizard Lord

> It never occurred to me that this was a fully functional operating device. I thought it was more experimental.


Seems like it isn't able to work 100% perfectly because the ether adds genuine unpredictability to the equation. That is why they are trying to get away from it.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Seems Loup has more Coyote in him than he'd like to admit.


And perhaps Ysengrin as well.

----------


## Vinyadan

For me it also brings up the question: how old is Loup, really? He isn't Ysengrin and he isn't Coyote. Thinking about his behaviour, the way he keeps doing the same things (how many times did he attack the court and exile the forest creatures?), I'm starting to wonder if he's actually a frustrated teenager who's now learning something from socialising and having stopped being a pain for the sake of it.

----------


## Typewriter

> With what these past two chapters seem to be suggesting, having human-Loup become Annie's new love interest never would've even registered as a blip on my theorizing radar, and yet it kind of makes sense in this context? We've had similarly oddball pairings in this comic before (Shadow 2 and Robot, for one). 
> 
> Interested to see if this new source of perspective will result in Loup gaining some (ahem) humanity, given the many parallels that are getting drawn with Renard's character arc, or if he'll end up flying even further off the deep end.


Honestly it strikes me as super weird. Robot and Shadow were at least both similar in, I don't know, emotional maturity? But Annie and Y? He's one of the people looking after her since she was, what, ten years old? I hope this is just her having positive memories about Y that she's displaying but the tonal shift feels really weird.

----------


## Murk

I'm not seeing Loup become Annie's love interest, though? Am I completely misreading this? Seems to be just her normal (maybe slightly oblivious) friendly behaviour to Court creatures. 

_The other way around_, with Annie becoming Loup's love interest, sure. But that's nothing new. 
The comic has always been full of forest creatures and robots inappropriately falling in love with humans.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I'm not seeing Loup become Annie's love interest, though? Am I completely misreading this? Seems to be just her normal (maybe slightly oblivious) friendly behaviour to Court creatures.


It's all spec right now. We don't know that Loup's reaction is romantic either (rather than just being mistaken for such by others). His own memory is just them in the forest, no romance there either. People are just thinking out that what kind of story that could be and wondering aloud if maybe that would be it.

To my recollection, Annie hasn't shown a specific romantic interest in anyone - she could be aromantic, or maybe just a middle schooler (high school? How old is she now?) whose attention hasn't turned to such things (or, of course, her story could just not be romance-centered and we find out in the epilogue that she meets the love of her life two years past story end and no you don't get the details). If Tom eventually does do anything with that, and pairs her up with Loup, Ysengrin, or Reynard... well that would be all kinds of squicky*.
*conveniently ignored in stuff like _Twilight_ and _Buffy_, but there you have the unaging god-monster and the 15 year old both played by 20 year old actors to help handwave the issue.

----------


## Typewriter

There's every possibility/likelihood that this isn't romantic - it just feels weird they way he's blushing and she's complimenting his eyes and her flashback with Ys and all that. Just the whole framing of it feels like it could turn really awkward really fast.




> To my recollection, Annie hasn't shown a specific romantic interest in anyone - she could be aromantic, or maybe just a middle schooler (high school? How old is she now?) whose attention hasn't turned to such things (or, of course, her story could just not be romance-centered and we find out in the epilogue that she meets the love of her life two years past story end and no you don't get the details). If Tom eventually does do anything with that, and pairs her up with Loup, Ysengrin, or Reynard... well that would be all kinds of squicky.


I seem to recall a party where she was crushing on a boy who wound up with another girl? And there was also the whole thing with the two Annies teasing each other because they knew who the other a crush on - but in doing so they were teasing themselves and couldn't bring themselves to actually say any names.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> It's all spec right now. We don't know that Loup's reaction is romantic either (rather than just being mistaken for such by others). His own memory is just them in the forest, no romance there either. People are just thinking out that what kind of story that could be and wondering aloud if maybe that would be it.
> 
> To my recollection, Annie hasn't shown a specific romantic interest in anyone - she could be aromantic, or maybe just a middle schooler (high school? How old is she now?) whose attention hasn't turned to such things (or, of course, her story could just not be romance-centered and we find out in the epilogue that she meets the love of her life two years past story end and no you don't get the details). If Tom eventually does do anything with that, and pairs her up with Loup, Ysengrin, or Reynard... well that would be all kinds of squicky*.
> *conveniently ignored in stuff like _Twilight_ and _Buffy_, but there you have the unaging god-monster and the 15 year old both played by 20 year old actors to help handwave the issue.


I believe the main duo were last equal to 10th graders in the US (is this summer before 11th grade/fall of 11th right now?), with Smitty and Parley being upperclassmen...? I can't recall the fine points of it, I think it's Annie->Smitty->Parley across 3 years.
Annie being asexual seems reasonably plausible, but she's definitely been infatuated with someone, so imo the jury's still out on that one. Maybe she liked Jack but I'd wager he's going to stick with his witchy girlfriend for the foreseeable future.

I'm almost certain that if the goal is to give Loup an actual shot at Annie, he's going to have quite a bit of humbling and establishing that he is _not_ on par with Coyote or Ysengrin, but rather much closer to Zimmy - an etherical demigod of an entity who and is mentally and emotionally more of a teenager than an ageless deity you would associate said powers with.

Ysengrin _could_ have been Annie's crush in the same way that Elgamore was Kat's "crush". Reynard is her father figure, in practice a de facto godfather/uncle in charge of her while she is at the court. As has been discussed, her relationship with her actual father is qualitatively different, but Rey's is still important.

==
Almost certain that Loup has romantic feelings towards Annie and/or is mistaking platonic affection from Coyote/Ysengrin as deeper emotions from himself. That we're seeing him from a somewhat more stable perspective makes me think we're going to see character growth. I would still bet on epilogue character #3 for Annie's love over Loup.

EDIT: Okay so based on today's comic, Loup is on the "has lovey-dovey emotions but isn't aware this is just how minds work" train.
Unrelated, does anyone have an explanation of what Kat's symbol means IRL? I can't recall.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> Unrelated, does anyone have an explanation of what Kat's symbol means IRL? I can't recall.


If you mean the one that looks like a ring with horns, it's the alchemical symbol for bismuth.

If you mean the one the robots inscribed on her workshop, I can't find that comic at the moment, but it is likely another alchemical symbol.

The symbol at the bottom of each page looks like Mercury/Quicksilver

----------


## Murk

> If you mean the one the robots inscribed on her workshop, I can't find that comic at the moment, but it is likely another alchemical symbol.


That's Kat's symbol in general; it's not only inscribed on her workshop, we've seen it often around Kat. On most of the treatises, too. 
It's not an existing alchemical symbol, Tom made it up for Kat. 

The favourite theory I've read is that it's inspired by the shape of Diego's nose.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I believe the main duo were last equal to 10th graders in the US (is this summer before 11th grade/fall of 11th right now?), with Smitty and Parley being upperclassmen...? I can't recall the fine points of it, I think it's Annie->Smitty->Parley across 3 years.
> Annie being asexual seems reasonably plausible, but she's definitely been infatuated with someone, so imo the jury's still out on that one. Maybe she liked Jack but I'd wager he's going to stick with his witchy girlfriend for the foreseeable future.


Okay. That's better-ish. I was still thinking of Annie as about 12-13 since the last time I'd noticed a year demarcation she was still in year 7 or so*. I was thinking aromantic, not asexual (one can be either, both, or neither), and I _think_** the crushes people have mentioned would rule it out. 
*and yes, some of the older kids were implied to be sexually active, but I didn't know how much older they were and 15-16 isn't out of the question
**I should really ask my friend who is openly aromantic.




> I'm almost certain that if the goal is to give Loup an actual shot at Annie, he's going to have quite a bit of humbling and establishing that he is _not_ on par with Coyote or Ysengrin, but rather much closer to Zimmy - an etherical demigod of an entity who and is mentally and emotionally more of a teenager than an ageless deity you would associate said powers with.


Yeah, this is where our IRL age-based romance taboos hit a paradox. Loup is technically less than a year old, but also has the memories of beings of mythic age*. Would him pairing with a teen be squicky one way, or the other, or does him being emotionally like a teenager trump everything else? I'm not sure. Mind you, him lying about his identity here and wanting to use her and probably kill her and all sorts of other things are also roadblocks, so yeah, lots of humbling and establishing between here and there.
*not sure we have actual ages for Coyote and Ysengrin, and would you believe Coyote's anyway?




> Ysengrin _could_ have been Annie's crush in the same way that Elgamore was Kat's "crush". Reynard is her father figure, in practice a de facto godfather/uncle in charge of her while she is at the court. As has been discussed, her relationship with her actual father is qualitatively different, but Rey's is still important.


Yeah. There was that one time when teddy-wolf Rey suggested he wouldn't mind if Annie and Kat made out, which seems to have been early-installment weirdness (also, y'know, trying to kill her the first time they met), but beyond that he's been supportive father figure. I wasn't really including him in the mix. Ysengrin as child's adult crush seems plausible, but I feel we should have seen at least a bit of hinting that way. The dynamic I got from her with both Ysengrin and Coyote has been wholly _'I'm fascinated by and vaguely adore (platonically) these bizarre woodland mysterious figures and they are so much better than the nefarious Court and they're my friends and I could see myself living out h... Oh God!, that's right, they are unpredictable and dangerous!'_




> Almost certain that Loup has romantic feelings towards Annie and/or is mistaking platonic affection from Coyote/Ysengrin as deeper emotions from himself. That we're seeing him from a somewhat more stable perspective makes me think we're going to see character growth. I would still bet on epilogue character #3 for Annie's love over Loup.
> EDIT: Okay so based on today's comic, Loup is on the "has lovey-dovey emotions but isn't aware this is just how minds work" train.
> Unrelated, does anyone have an explanation of what Kat's symbol means IRL? I can't recall.


Wild spec: Loup falls for her, realizes he could never be what she wants, and then uses/lets her use the tooth to split himself back into Ysengrin and Coyote. 
Regardless, yes -- I think we are seeing Loup finally being given some depth beyond 'Ysengrin's emotional damage made manifest.' It would have made for a much more compelling antagonist. We shall see if it makes for a compelling tragic anti-villain or whatever this would be.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> That's Kat's symbol in general; it's not only inscribed on her workshop, we've seen it often around Kat. On most of the treatises, too. 
> It's not an existing alchemical symbol, Tom made it up for Kat. 
> 
> The favourite theory I've read is that it's inspired by the shape of Diego's nose.


Thanks - that saves me a comic binge later.

Not that a comic binge is necessarly a bad thing, of course...

----------


## wingnutx

The chapter cover and treatise art generally shows them paired with their symbols.

Kat's looks like a circuit trace.

----------


## hajo

> does anyone have an explanation of what Kat's symbol means IRL?


It is the sign of the creator

That symbol appeared a lot earlier,
but right now I cannot find the comic where the robots inscribed it at her workshop...

Edit: I found it - the comic where the robots inscribed that symbol at her workshop.

----------


## Murk

Yea, it was originally Diego's symbol, as the original "creator". Basically an honorific symbol from the court robots. Now bestowed to Kat.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Yeah, this is where our IRL age-based romance taboos hit a paradox. Loup is technically less than a year old, but also has the memories of beings of mythic age*. Would him pairing with a teen be squicky one way, or the other, or does him being emotionally like a teenager trump everything else? I'm not sure. Mind you, him lying about his identity here and wanting to use her and probably kill her and all sorts of other things are also roadblocks, so yeah, lots of humbling and establishing between here and there.
> *not sure we have actual ages for Coyote and Ysengrin, and would you believe Coyote's anyway?


Loup is a huge mess either way, but that's more a feature of villain romances.
It feels like there's been a bit of a disconnect from the day-to-day strip reader's understanding of the comic and what Tom has in mind. Things like The Mind Cage made little to no sense and only now that we're further in the book can we see where it was meant to fall into place. While they'd be easily understood in a book, a thrice a week comic can have gaps too big to make it clear and concise.

How we're supposed to feel about Loup's current actions as well as where his state of mind also seems to be subject to the same disconnect. In some mythology and works, nascent gods are treated as babies incredibly briefly before evolving into teenage/20 somethings forms, which they then stick to until they pupate into the old "wise man of the seas" style things an incomprehensible amount of time later.
I think what we're meant to see in Loup is the birth of a new god; he was an "infant" as that insane mess he was when Annie first visited, and then over the next 6 months coalesced into a more coherent form. Now he is meant to be a fledgling demigod with a 14-18 yo human equivalent mind, and his time as an "infant" is irrelevant to his current state of being.
In other words, we have a ~1 year old "entity" (insert birthday chapter here) with a teenage divine mind who has a perfect recreation of all of Coyote and Ysengrin's experience _stored_ in his mind, but not _part_ of his mind. Like, having a pair of seamless movies containing all of Coyote and Ysengrin's experiences.


This, of course, doesn't change that at the moment Loup is still a horrible and wrathful person who needs 5 gallons of humility poured into his half pint bottle.




> That's Kat's symbol in general; it's not only inscribed on her workshop, we've seen it often around Kat. On most of the treatises, too. 
> It's not an existing alchemical symbol, Tom made it up for Kat. 
> 
> The favourite theory I've read is that it's inspired by the shape of Diego's nose.


Ahh I see.
Diego's nose rendered as a circuit seems appropriate.

----------


## Clertar

I have to admit that this is a completely unexpected new romantic triangle.

----------


## eee

Aw, come on, Robot, tell her the full truth.

"Yes, there is something wrong with you.  You are in love."

----------


## 137beth

> Aw, come on, Robot, tell her the full truth.
> 
> "Yes, there is something wrong with you.  You are in love."


And falling in love is much worse than brainwashing!

----------


## eee

Oh.  This is interesting.  Keeping in mind the need for spoilers, how does everyone think Annie will do in Elden Ring?  I suspect she won't think much of the gods, but will get wrapped up in the plot lines.  And some of her reactions will be comedy.

VarrÃ©:  You are Maidenless.
Annie:  Could you define your terms?

----------


## sihnfahl

Apparently she has good reflexes; her time in the forest?

And, hah!  Blood dex build.  Who would have guessed?

And I love how the symbol is now the Elden Ring icon rather than Antimony.

----------


## Kornaki

I've been pretty confused how to reconcile loup going so deep he thinks he's a goose with how he's actually been acting, but maybe we'll get to see a bit more of that play out when he kills himself.

----------


## eee

Kat is not thinking clearly here.  The people who have put in place the rules and restrictions she chafes at, are the very ones who'll be running things in the new place.  Within a very short period of time she'd be up to her eyeballs in the same sort of redtape she despises, now.

----------


## Murk

What kind of red tape or limitations does Kat even encounter? 

She gets unlimited materials, energy, a storage room, with no oversight whatsoever. She has been allowed to create life, tamper with time... If the Court knows they're clearly fine with it, and if they _don't_ know then they're clueless enough not to matter.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> What kind of red tape or limitations does Kat even encounter? 
> 
> She gets unlimited materials, energy, a storage room, with no oversight whatsoever. She has been allowed to create life, tamper with time... If the Court knows they're clearly fine with it, and if they _don't_ know then they're clueless enough not to matter.


I think there's the implication that, given what Carver went through, Kat has dramatically more oversight than she thinks, but it wouldn't take full effect until a scenario of Omega's knowledge comes into play.
Either way, the point stands - Kat could be talking about a hypothetical, but wherever the Court ends up should have the same red tape as Kat has now. Potentially (and more likely) significantly more, even.

----------


## Vinyadan

I am wondering if she refers to the fact that the Court itself has no red tape, and leaving with it would allow her to keep doing her research as an adult. That's how I read it. Outside the Court, she wouldn't have been as free.

----------


## Squire Doodad

Ahh, that's a good point. Though, it feels a bit odd in the context provided - "the regular rules and restrictions" are, uh... I guess...
Maybe she did an internship over the summer and was astonished by the amount of red tape stopping her from building a fission reactor in an aquarium's basement?

----------


## hungrycrow

I still don't understand what Kat and Renard are talking about. Has the Court not been super shady this whole time? Did they not turn somebody into a murder ghost to act as a magical barrier? Since when have they been limited by ethics?

----------


## sihnfahl

> I still don't understand what Kat and Renard are talking about. Has the Court not been super shady this whole time? Did they not turn somebody into a murder ghost to act as a magical barrier? Since when have they been limited by ethics?


That's what I said on the board.  Reynardine's response could have just been: Jeanne.

Edit: And I forgot.  The 'sacrifice' the Court engineered to trap Reynardine all those years ago.

----------


## Rodin

Kat _herself_ had a moment with this when she found out about the lab animals.  Sure, Paz is protecting them now, but the entire chapter was a lesson on unscrupulous organizations requiring good people inside them to curb their excesses.  Kat's one of the last people who should be having a flippant attitude about the Court and how it has treated Jeanne, the robots, the lab animals...even her best friend Annie.

----------


## Squire Doodad

Given all of this arguing about what Kat means, I'd wager it's one of those "gap just big enough to confuse readers" scenarios. The full breadth of it will likely be clearer by the end of the chapter, though it's a pretty minor point.
The best thing I can think of, and likely what Tom intends, is that Kat is talking about a hypothetical, what the prospect of a new Court is meant to represent regardless of what it actually will do. She doesn't want to leave, but the idea of a place she can do anything at is rather interesting to her so she is talking about it.

----------


## sihnfahl

> The best thing I can think of, and likely what Tom intends, is that Kat is talking about a hypothetical, what the prospect of a new Court is meant to represent regardless of what it actually will do. She doesn't want to leave, but the idea of a place she can do anything at is rather interesting to her so she is talking about it.


The problem with it being a hypothetical is that it's based on the premise than an organization that has acted in severely callous ways since its inception would operate differently if it moved locations.

----------


## 137beth

Yeah, the Court has shown no indication they can act in a benevolent manner.

----------


## Gez

> Given all of this arguing about what Kat means, I'd wager it's one of those "gap just big enough to confuse readers" scenarios. The full breadth of it will likely be clearer by the end of the chapter, though it's a pretty minor point.


Yeah, I don't get why Kat would be like this.

She knows the Court is already unburdened by ethics. She found it first with the lab mice, then there was the Zimmy situation, she was especially shocked when she discovered the origin of the Annan Ghost, and last time it was about overriding the robots' sense of self to power a defense grid.

And it's not like her own work has been especially hampered by rules and regulations since she has her own lab where she does what she wants unsupervised.

I can only suppose that she has been reading Ayn Rand's work and is now a staunch libertarian, and that it's the beginning of her heel turn as a mad scientist supervillain. Calling it now, she will be the big bad of the last arc and the comic will end tragically with Annie being forced to kill her childhood friend.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> Calling it now, she will be the big bad of the last arc and the comic will end tragically with Annie being forced to kill her childhood friend.


I doubt it very much. Kat may get a short swim in the deep end of the alignment pool, but I don't see it coming to that.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Yeah, I don't get why Kat would be like this.


Given today's comic, probably just to be the naïve audience surrogate who asks the questions that let Annie and Rey exposition.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Given today's comic, probably just to be the naïve audience surrogate who asks the questions that let Annie and Rey exposition.


Given the Idiot Ball (conveniently forget all the Court's ethical and moral failings) for exposition?  Whee!

----------


## Squire Doodad

Kat: Talks about hypothetical that is redundant to her situation
Rey: Provides in-depth, philosophical counterpoint that helps ground the topic and let Kat think things through
Annie: Talks about tangentially related topic that ties things back into the plot, sort of, not really

----------


## 137beth

I feel like the exposition would work better if there was another character asking what Kat's asking.

----------


## sihnfahl

Whew, what a whiplash.

If they only knew...

----------


## Kornaki

Considering that Loup's inspiration for this field trip was Coyote turning into a dead goose and forgetting he was coyote in the first place, I would say loup actually is not taking this seriously.

----------


## eee

Don't go, Kat!  The Court has shown little interest in the desires and welfare of those under its care.  If the ones at the top have decided to flee to some Brave New World away from the Ether, they may just grab those they think can help them and drag them off without consent.  Frankly, given they'll be splitting up families and going into unknown and probably extremely dangerous territory, I'd suspect the Court may not be interested in letting people decline.  After all, it's for the good of humanity!





> What kind of red tape or limitations does Kat even encounter? 
> 
> She gets unlimited materials, energy, a storage room, with no oversight whatsoever. She has been allowed to create life, tamper with time... If the Court knows they're clearly fine with it, and if they _don't_ know then they're clueless enough not to matter.


Anti-gravity comes to mind.  And the Dolans have had it made clear to them, it doesn't matter if their Ether using computer does wonders, it's not REAL science and the Court doesn't approve.  Kat is getting away with things only because the robots are supplying her with what she needs, and Juliet and Arthur have been covering for her.  The Court administration has been shown to be extremely hidebound and repressive in its thinking; going somewhere new would almost certainly only increase that.

----------


## sihnfahl

Woo.  Bye Reynardine...

----------


## Willie the Duck

Okay, Loup, so you just destroyed a bargaining chip, while communicating that you are willing to do harm to the people and things the protagonists love (something they already know). What exactly is the endgame here?

----------


## Vinyadan

> Okay, Loup, so you just destroyed a bargaining chip, while communicating that you are willing to do harm to the people and things the protagonists love (something they already know). What exactly is the endgame here?


Yep, this reminded me of that time when he made the shield demonstration to Annie, except that time he actually used the demonstration and did not attack (yet). To be honest, that didn't look like a smart move: if he wanted Coyote's power back, destroying Renard's original receptacle goes in the opposite direction.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Yep, this reminded me of that time when he made the shield demonstration to Annie, except that time he actually used the demonstration and did not attack (yet). To be honest, that didn't look like a smart move: if he wanted Coyote's power back, destroying Renard's original receptacle goes in the opposite direction.


Thinking about this, if Loup were cagey and smart, what they should have said was, _"give me Coyote's power, and I'll put you back in your own body, and the people you slayed with this power alive and back in their bodies*."_ It'd be something Rey (on his redemption arc) could hardly refuse, gives back the power to Loup, and distracts the protagonists with dealing with getting all the different people suddenly alive again back into their lives.
*maybe Daniel has to take over the stuffed wolf, as I assume his body is decayed and gone.

----------


## Squire Doodad

> Thinking about this, if Loup were cagey and smart, what they should have said was, _"give me Coyote's power, and I'll put you back in your own body, and the people you slayed with this power alive and back in their bodies*."_ It'd be something Rey (on his redemption arc) could hardly refuse, gives back the power to Loup, and distracts the protagonists with dealing with getting all the different people suddenly alive again back into their lives.
> *maybe Daniel has to take over the stuffed wolf, as I assume his body is decayed and gone.


Does Rey still count as being in a redemption arc? I think at this point he's more an ordinary guy (fox) with a dried bloodstain he has to live with.
Narratively he's already done a fair bit to show the readers he has redeemed himself, culminating in the Hetty chapter.

Agreed with you on Loup's actions though - either this is some sort of illusion or Loup doesn't get how bargaining chips work.
I don't think the Daniel thing would actually work given how we've seen ghosts - they're few and far between, and you can't seem to grab anything from beyond the Ether itself - so I could see a Chekov's gun setup where Daniel as a ghost is still around but it's unlikely.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Does Rey still count as being in a redemption arc? I think at this point he's more an ordinary guy (fox) with a dried bloodstain he has to live with.
> Narratively he's already done a fair bit to show the readers he has redeemed himself, culminating in the Hetty chapter.


Maybe, but don't you think he'd jump at the chance of not having to live with it (/he still did the killing, but they didn't take)?




> I don't think the Daniel thing would actually work given how we've seen ghosts - they're few and far between, and you can't seem to grab anything from beyond the Ether itself - so I could see a Chekov's gun setup where Daniel as a ghost is still around but it's unlikely.


Well if everyone knows it can't be done then yes it wouldn't work. I'm not sure we know that, and I'm pretty sure the characters in-strip aren't sure Coyote/Loup can't do that. 

Regardless, looks like it is as we thought - Loup doesn't know what bargaining ships are, nor what lessons are. He wants Rey to 'think on' the fact that he can hurt them (something they've known and spent the past however many months dealing with).

----------


## Pax1138

I don't think we need to ascribe any particular sense of planning or overall goal to Loup's actions right now.  He's a child thoughtlessly lashing out to hurt those he perceives are hurting him, both for the "trick" when they tried to capture him, and his jealousy as Jerrek.

----------


## Gez

> I don't think we need to ascribe any particular sense of planning or overall goal to Loup's actions right now.  He's a child thoughtlessly lashing out to hurt those he perceives are hurting him, both for the "trick" when they tried to capture him, and his jealousy as Jerrek.


It's just jealousy. The trick serves as a pretext here but in reality it just amused him; he was playing along for the fun of turning the table on them.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I don't think we need to ascribe any particular sense of planning or overall goal to Loup's actions right now.  He's a child thoughtlessly lashing out to hurt those he perceives are hurting him, both for the "trick" when they tried to capture him, and his jealousy as Jerrek.


I mean, yes, that is the straightforward answer. I'm just looking for meaning behind the comments like, "I'm not taking this seriously, eh?," and, "let this be a lesson." This doesn't show that he's taking this any more or less seriously, nor does it teach any real lesson. Either Tom thinks he is making a point I don't see, or (as you say), this is just a child lashing out.

----------


## Vinyadan

> I don't think we need to ascribe any particular sense of planning or overall goal to Loup's actions right now.  He's a child thoughtlessly lashing out to hurt those he perceives are hurting him, both for the "trick" when they tried to capture him, and his jealousy as Jerrek.


I think that there might be a bit of Ysengrin acting, too. Ysengrin really liked Annie (which could be why Loup is so attracted to her, although interpreting this feeling as an adolescent robot and a newborn god), but he also was the one who taught her to meditate and gave her a lot of food for thought (and this could be why Loup likes how Annie thinks when compared to the robochick, he unconsciously recognizes the tracks left by his Ysengrim part in her).

Interesting that Loup, a young god born from the union of two ancient beings, is now forcing himself into an even younger body, pretending to be an older mind in it.

----------


## wingnutx

Renard's body was waiting there all this time?

----------


## Rodin

> Renard's body was waiting there all this time?


Yes, Coyote showed it off a long time ago.  Kept in stasis/magical sleep in case Renard ever managed to go back into it.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Renard's body was waiting there all this time?


Yep.  Coyote put it into suspended animation, so if he ever wanted to come back...

----------


## 137beth

So,
*Spoiler: Latest page*
Show

Robot somehow figured it out.  Or Annie or Kat figured it out and told him.

----------


## wingnutx

This is not going to turn out well for him.

----------


## WanderingMist

> This is not going to turn out well for him.


I don't see why it wouldn't. If anything, he has power over Loup because Annie and Kat will be extremely suspicious if something happens to Robot.

----------


## slayerx

> So,
> *Spoiler: Latest page*
> Show
> 
> Robot somehow figured it out.  Or Annie or Kat figured it out and told him.


Simple way for him to figure out; he helped guide the robots through their character creation. He likely knows every robot that went through the process and he would notice an extra

----------


## Squire Doodad

While it's possible that Robot noticed an unusual spare person, there is the question of how...subtle Loup has been.
He's apparently been super-speed warping himself here and there and doing some degree of mysterious machinations that Robot could have caught eye of. While the Court might not be paying any particular attention to the new people let alone Jerrek specifically, there's plenty of ways Robot could have gotten a hint that Jerrek was Loup specifically on top of knowing he wasn't quite what he seems.

Do the robots have good memory or is it more human-like? We've seen them be forgetful though they could still be above human levels...either way, I do kind of question whether Robot remembers each and every robot he has helped.

----------


## Pax1138

And there's our answer, simple and clean.  And I remain very concerned for Robot.

----------


## sihnfahl

> And there's our answer, simple and clean.  And I remain very concerned for Robot.


I doubt Robot would have approached Loup without some sort of plan...

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> I doubt Robot would have approached Loup without some sort of plan...


"Oh ok, cool. Just wanted to confirm that."   :Small Big Grin:

----------


## geoduck

I'll actually be impressed with Tom S. if he has Robot try to make some kind of deal with Loup, and Loup just says "No, screw you" CRUNCH.

----------


## Kornaki

Robot almost certainly has contingencies for loup's identity to be revealed if he gets eaten,  which will stop loup from eating him. 

Of course if loup really was as immersed as coyote as he promised here

https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2582

He would have just said no,  and who knows if that would have worked?

I'm now envisioning a horror comedy where a new person figures out who he is every day and the secondary characters just drop like flies while the protagonists investigate why they keep dying.  And the whole time loup things he's a master of deception.

----------


## Rodin

> Robot almost certainly has contingencies for loup's identity to be revealed if he gets eaten,  which will stop loup from eating him. 
> 
> Of course if loup really was as immersed as coyote as he promised here
> 
> https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2582
> 
> He would have just said no,  and who knows if that would have worked?
> 
> I'm now envisioning a horror comedy where a new person figures out who he is every day and the secondary characters just drop like flies while the protagonists investigate why they keep dying.  And the whole time loup things he's a master of deception.


Loup doesn't have the same power or control as Coyote, and he _certainly_ doesn't have the understanding.  Coyote would have become Jerrek, which would have made this conversation very interesting because he would truly believe he was Jerrek.

Loup is just Loup riding around in a Jerrek-shaped body.  Even so, he's starting to feel the effects.  Form dictates function as we've seen with Renard.  In his teddy bear form he's much more cynical and prone to his darker impulses.  He's spent more and more time in wolf form as he has become more noble.

Loup's going to find his worldview changed by this.

----------


## WanderingMist

> Loup doesn't have the same power or control as Coyote, and he _certainly_ doesn't have the understanding.  Coyote would have become Jerrek, which would have made this conversation very interesting because he would truly believe he was Jerrek.
> 
> Loup is just Loup riding around in a Jerrek-shaped body.  Even so, he's starting to feel the effects.  Form dictates function as we've seen with Renard.  In his teddy bear form he's much more cynical and prone to his darker impulses.  He's spent more and more time in wolf form as he has become more noble.
> 
> Loup's going to find his worldview changed by this.


Loup has been Jerrek for all of what, 2 days? It took Coyote either 6 or 7 days to forget he was Coyote and not a dead goose in a bush next to a lake.

----------


## Kornaki

I forgot about that

https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1810

It was 4 days.

In the first three days coyote at least stuck to the bit without popping in and out, so I doubt loup is on pace to match the feat.

----------


## sihnfahl

And there's Robot's plan to survive.

"I know, but I don't care so long as you don't get involved in the robots."  Whom Loup didn't really have much interest in.  So, nothing lost on Loup's side?

----------


## WanderingMist

> And there's Robot's plan to survive.
> 
> "I know, but I don't care so long as you don't get involved in the robots."  Whom Loup didn't really have much interest in.  So, nothing lost on Loup's side?


Note how his deal doesn't include Annie, Shadow or most importantly, Kat, the one he sees as an angel.

----------


## Kornaki

> Note how his deal doesn't include Annie, Shadow or most importantly, Kat, the one he sees as an angel.


He knows loup is here to mess with Annie,  so that's not a deal he can try to strike.  He probably assumes Kat can handle herself.   No idea about Shadow.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Note how his deal doesn't include Annie, Shadow or most importantly, Kat, the one he sees as an angel.


That's because Loup stated his business is not with the robots or Kat.  He doesn't need to make a deal about them.

Same probably concerns Shadow.  He knows Loup is only interested in Annie now.

----------


## eee

*Spoiler*
Show

Bunch of people, walking into the water fully clothed, not speaking, apparently mindless, like they've been hypnotized...

Maybe the Court is going to take people to their Brave New World whether they want to go or not.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Bunch of people, walking into the water fully clothed, not speaking, apparently mindless, like they've been hypnotized...
> 
> Maybe the Court is going to take people to their Brave New World whether they want to go or not.


*Spoiler*
Show

Or, worst case scenario, these are the ones that would go to the meeting, but don't qualify for the BNW, and this is a way to get rid of them.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

*Spoiler*
Show

Or the court is secretly run by a cabal of Deep Ones, who are distant ancestors of most of the cast...

----------


## WanderingMist

...why are y'all usin' spoilers?


Anyway, was wondering where this chapter was going but the last two pages have been a hard swerve from anything I was expecting.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To avoid double-posting, I'm editing this one.


Today's page of Gunnerkrigg can be summed up as this: Oh ****.

----------


## hungrycrow

Boy Tom really knows how to write a cliffhanger.

----------


## Blackdrop

Am I the only one getting Matrix-y, "None of this is real, it's all a simulation", vibes from the last few arcs?

----------


## Kornaki

It's technically an inland sea!

#TheMoreYouKnow

----------


## wingnutx

I did not expect this turn of events.

----------


## JavaScribe

It's sounding like when all is said and done, this is going to be a one-way trip for most of them. This certainly doesn't seem creepy and cult-like at all. Especially since the new Court is going to be even more isolated from the outside world than ever before. They could do all sorts of unspeakable things and no one would be able to stop them. Isolated like this, it probably wouldn't even take long for the Court's rank and file to fall out of touch with what normal people consider to be right, wrong, and even normal. I kinda wonder whether that's part of the point, even the old Court showed signs of cult-like behavior.

So who's taking charge of the old Court, and is that being handled officially or are the remainers being left to decide all that on their own?

----------


## WanderingMist

...this was not anywhere near my list of guesses for what the ocean was.

----------


## sihnfahl

Who says that it is?

Don't forget that Annie's father was deceived to the point he almost killed Annie, and one of the themes of the Wisps is that they deceive to feed.

Who is to say the 'aliens' aren't just more spirits deceiving the Court?

----------


## 137beth

> ...this was not anywhere near my list of guesses for what the ocean was.


Not mine either.  Or for where the new Court would be.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Not mine either.  Or for where the new Court would be.


Well, it would make sense.  Since the Earth is surrounded by Ether, and suffuses everything on Earth, then the only way they'd be sure that there would be no Ether in their equipment or lives would be to go somewhere where there is no Ether.

Temptation would be still on Earth, too.  Remember, Aata did his best to NOT use Ether abilities, but when push came to shove, he opted to save a life rather than adhere to the goal.  And if he did it once, would he not be tempted to do it again?

----------


## JavaScribe

Do we know what ether actually is though? Is it a thing that can be escaped? If it's the essence of life, or a fundamental force of the universe, then traveling to a different planet won't actually get rid of it, at best they might escape already established forces in the ether.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Do we know what ether actually is though?


As far as I remember, it's never been specifically defined.  We know that human souls go to the ether and that helps the Earth 'continue to spin'.  We also know that human belief can manipulate the ether, which results in beings like Jones, Coyote, Ysengrim and Reynardine.

We know that humans can manipulate it.  Kat and her family, for example, tap into the Ether to do their tricks.  And Eglamore and Parley are boosted by Etheric powers, which is then boosted even further by being bonded to a Rojak.  And Andrew's fate manipulation is ether powered.

----------


## eee

Things the mysterious being so far HASN'T said

1) habitable Earth like planet
2) WHY any sane person would go (although it will probably get to that)
3) How they know this isn't a "The book, To Serve Man, it's... it's a COOKBOOK!!" scenario

I see the Moon still has that mysterious fingerprint on it.  I hope Annie is careful about letting anyone fingerprint her.

----------


## sihnfahl

> I see the Moon still has that mysterious fingerprint on it.  I hope Annie is careful about letting anyone fingerprint her.


Kat knows.  And considering the Court?  They know.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> As far as I remember, it's never been specifically defined.  We know that human souls go to the ether and that helps the Earth 'continue to spin'.  We also know that human belief can manipulate the ether, which results in beings like Jones, Coyote, Ysengrim and Reynardine.


Unless I'm missing something, Jones was around before actual life on the planet.

----------


## halfeye

> Unless I'm missing something, Jones was around before actual life on the planet.


She was. However, the way I remember it is that she said, to Annie, that she thinks Coyote was right that the world is a function of human imagination, or something like that.

----------


## sihnfahl

> She was. However, the way I remember it is that she said, to Annie, that she thinks Coyote was right that the world is a function of human imagination, or something like that.


The relevant page: Jones explains.

----------


## halfeye

> The relevant page: Jones explains.


Thanks for finding that, all the pages around it are relevant too.

----------


## wingnutx

I miss seeing Jones in the comic.

----------


## sihnfahl

Wow.

"Walk into this water, that's not really water, so you can be lifted to another world, which means you can ASCEND!"

That could also explain the Power Station and why the rain, per Zimmy, 'didn't work'.

The power station might have been manipulating the ether and shoving it wherever the 'aliens' wanted.

----------


## JavaScribe

Does ignoring aspects of the universe you don't like really count as "science"?

----------


## eee

> Does ignoring aspects of the universe you don't like really count as "science"?


A certain type of science.

I hope Kat isn't buying any of this.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Does ignoring aspects of the universe you don't like really count as "science"?


I think it's because they can't see the cause.  They see the initiation and the result, but can't see WHY it happens.

Annie thinks about fire.  She gets fire.  Real fire that burns and cuts.  But they can't tell how the fire came to be in the first place, other than Annie thought 'Fire'.  Nor how it keeps going just by Annie wanting fire.

Compared to: here's a fuel source.  Here's oxygen.  Add heat to start combustion.  Fire consumes fuel, utilizing oxygen, to sustain itself, until one or the other is totally consumed, or the fire is stopped in some fashion.  X amount of fuel + Y amount of oxygen = predictable fire output.  Intensity, duration.  Repeatable, observable, quantifiable.

----------


## Kornaki

Is travel in a metaphorical state code for this is actually going to cleanse the earth of all humans who have superstitious beliefs, hence ending the Ether's powers?

Just trying to think of worst case scenarios here.

----------


## Ionathus

> Does ignoring aspects of the universe you don't like really count as "science"?


Well said. Court is looking more and more like a bunch of ignorant fanatics, hiding behind the veneer of "science." 

For goodness' sake, they're even using the ether to "escape" the ether! And nobody catches the hypocrisy?

----------


## sihnfahl

> Is travel in a metaphorical state code for this is actually going to cleanse the earth of all humans who have superstitious beliefs, hence ending the Ether's powers?
> 
> Just trying to think of worst case scenarios here.


No, it's trying to pull the Court into the Water, the Court that wants to operate without Ether powers.

Remember, the Ether has existed for a very long time.  It was non-Court humans who came up with Coyote, et al, after all.

I'm getting a 'trick the unbelievers so they don't spread their ideas' vibe.

----------


## JavaScribe

> Is travel in a metaphorical state code for this is actually going to cleanse the earth of all humans who have superstitious beliefs, hence ending the Ether's powers


No, I think this is related to how the ether is shaped by stories. Like how a god is a personification for philosophies or forces of nature that the ether turns real.

Since the Court doesn't have warp drives yet, they are instead going to tell a story about how the Court escaped the evils of magic by using magic one last time, to literally sail an ocean made of stars. The ether will somehow translate the Court's story into travelling to another planet at FTL speeds.

----------


## halfeye

> No, I think this is related to how the ether is shaped by stories. Like how a god is a personification for philosophies or forces of nature that the ether turns real.
> 
> Since the Court doesn't have warp drives yet, they are instead going to tell a story about how the Court escaped the evils of magic by using magic one last time, to literally sail an ocean made of stars. The ether will somehow translate the Court's story into travelling to another planet at FTL speeds.


On the other hand, maybe the Court have hypnotised the people they don't want into walking into the sea and drowning?

----------


## 137beth

"It's entirely your choice..."
So is the Court going to launch nukes at everyone who stays behind?

----------


## sihnfahl

> So is the Court going to launch nukes at everyone who stays behind?


Do nothing at all.

They're probably operating under the assumption Loup is going to destroy the entire Court... eventually, given the amount of damage he's caused so far.

That he's been relatively quiet is just a sign that he's moving things around that'll smash everything in one go.

----------


## JavaScribe

If I were an etherically tuned student at the Court, I'd be feeling pretty betrayed right now. To think that the Court trains and studies them not to spread the benefits of their gifts, but to be free of them. All because it's "not fair".

Why the heck is the Court so afraid of the gods that they would go to all this effort to create what is ultimately a smaller world than the one they were born in? The gods of this world don't seem to interfere with humanity anywhere near enough to justify that.

Isn't the soul supposed to be fundamental to the ether? How are they going to make this world completely devoid of it?

----------


## Kornaki

Maybe this actually adds up,  huh.

I'm surprised Kat passes this test to be honest.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Maybe this actually adds up,  huh.


Not really.  I believe they're gaslighting.  Remember the reason they got shifted was because the Ship wanted Kat to give the Ship flesh so it could woo Lindsey.

And it's debatable it was even on the Court's sea.  Kat thought it was the Atlantic.

And Zimmy?  She gets seasick.  Regardless of 'ocean'.

And don't forget that -none- of the etheric users had any adverse reactions.  The robots had to seal those with any real abilities.  The witch wasn't sealed, of course, and was fully ether capable.

----------


## eee

> If I were an etherically tuned student at the Court, I'd be feeling pretty betrayed right now. To think that the Court trains and studies them not to spread the benefits of their gifts, but to be free of them. All because it's "not fair".
> 
> Why the heck is the Court so afraid of the gods that they would go to all this effort to create what is ultimately a smaller world than the one they were born in? The gods of this world don't seem to interfere with humanity anywhere near enough to justify that.
> 
> Isn't the soul supposed to be fundamental to the ether? How are they going to make this world completely devoid of it?


RE why the Court is doing this:  My suspicion is, the current rulers are control freaks.  They want everything neat and tidy.  But they've got things like Jones, who can't be explained, and gods like Coyote, who can change natural laws at whim.  The rulers can't handle a world they can't understand.  So they're going to run somewhere else, where everything DOES conform to the rules they love, and they'll takes lots of people with them so they can continue to be rulers, all in the name of fairness.  Then, they think, they'll be happy.  The thing is, as you've noted, this is probably a pipe dream and serious mistake.  Where humans (even Ether devoid ones) are, there too is the Ether, and things will just wind up the same.    Even if the new world is a computer program carefully designed and constructed to be Ether free.




> Maybe this actually adds up,  huh.
> 
> I'm surprised Kat passes this test to be honest.


I think Kat is a powerful Ether force, but of a sort no one, even the gods, has seen before.  So they don't recognize her.

----------


## sihnfahl

> I think Kat is a powerful Ether force, but of a sort no one, even the gods, has seen before.  So they don't recognize her.


Indeed, even the Realm of the Dead didn't have a clue.

----------


## Kornaki

> Not really.  I believe they're gaslighting.  Remember the reason they got shifted was because the Ship wanted Kat to give the Ship flesh so it could woo Lindsey.
> 
> And it's debatable it was even on the Court's sea.  Kat thought it was the Atlantic.
> 
> And Zimmy?  She gets seasick.  Regardless of 'ocean'.
> 
> And don't forget that -none- of the etheric users had any adverse reactions.  The robots had to seal those with any real abilities.  The witch wasn't sealed, of course, and was fully ether capable.


The trip is metaphorical, so I thought maybe the ship coming to life and warding the students etc was part of it. 

But then I found this page on a re-read
https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1451

So you're definitely right, this had nothing to do with the current plot.

----------


## sihnfahl

> So you're definitely right, this had nothing to do with the current plot.


It does if the 'aliens' are trying to gaslight the Court folks.

The sort of 'aliens' like those who convinced Anthony to cut off his hand to make an antenna that was going to end up killing Annie if not for Zimmie, all for the hope of bringing back Surma... who was long dead and whose spirit was taken into the Ether.

----------


## Kornaki

> It does if the 'aliens' are trying to gaslight the Court folks.
> 
> The sort of 'aliens' like those who convinced Anthony to cut off his hand to make an antenna that was going to end up killing Annie if not for Zimmie, all for the hope of bringing back Surma... who was long dead and whose spirit was taken into the Ether.


In fairness surma's spirit (at least the fire elemental)  is in antimony,  so it feels a little different.

----------


## JavaScribe

So yes, it's a one way trip.

Good riddance to the cultists I guess. Maybe with them gone, the remnants of the Court can become an _actual_ institute dedicated to etheric sciences, and maybe reuse the Star Ocean for actual space colonization.

But where does Antimony come in? Ysengrin implied that they are planning to do something terrible to her. Are they going to use her as a human sacrifice to give the Star Ocean enough power to transport everyone?

----------


## guttering flame

Gunnerkrigg Court Founders flee the evils of mundane humanity to magic forest. Now they will flee the evils of magic to, mundane humanity? 

They were chickensh1te to the end I guess.

----------


## eee

Did Aata just say they're going to flee the evils of this world to make their own evils?  That would be more self-aware of him than I expected.

I wonder why Janet wasn't part of the crowd.  Was she invited and just didn't go?  Or does she have a secret Etheric side?

----------


## halfeye

> Did Aata just say they're going to flee the evils of this world to make their own evils?  That would be more self-aware of him than I expected.


I parsed it as being to make their own world. He keeps saying "they" rather than "we", I suspect he's not invited.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Or does she have a secret Etheric side?


It's suspected she has a secret etheric side that gives her special skills.  That and if Winsbury wasn't invited, then she'd decline.




> I suspect he's not invited.


He was kicked out of the program after saving Shell with his powers.

----------


## JavaScribe

So who the heck is in charge of the Court anyways? Is it a secret? The highest ranking we know about are Llanwellyn and Aata and even they are clearly not at the top.

----------


## eee

> So who the heck is in charge of the Court anyways? Is it a secret? The highest ranking we know about are Llanwellyn and Aata and even they are clearly not at the top.


I suspect Gunner Krigg.

----------


## tyckspoon

> So who the heck is in charge of the Court anyways? Is it a secret? The highest ranking we know about are Llanwellyn and Aata and even they are clearly not at the top.


Probably Coyote, somehow.

----------


## hungrycrow

> So who the heck is in charge of the Court anyways? Is it a secret? The highest ranking we know about are Llanwellyn and Aata and even they are clearly not at the top.


Tom Siddell.

----------


## wingnutx

> So who the heck is in charge of the Court anyways? Is it a secret? The highest ranking we know about are Llanwellyn and Aata and even they are clearly not at the top.


It was Boxbot the entire time.

----------


## PhantomFox

Part of me is imagining the Court is eventually successful in this migration, they take a sigh of relief finally being free of the ether, turn around and find themselves face to face with coyote grinning like the cat who came back.
"Hi!"

----------


## JavaScribe

So, if this planet is truly free of ether, what happens to their souls? Will they accidentally bring the ether with their souls, are they planning to destroy their souls, or will their souls simply have no impact on the environment and end up getting stranded when they die due to the lack of psychopomps?

----------


## eee

For a supposedly benevolent guy, Aata is coming across as a bit of a jerk, here.  And the more I hear of the Court's plans, the more I can't see why any intelligent person would want anything to do with them.

I also foresee a problem.  Annie is one of the ones who would never be allowed in this Brave New World unless the Fire Elemental could somehow be torn out of her.  Tony is apparently one of the important cogs in the Court's plans.  So.  Annie is left behind and Tony goes, Annie is Etherically lobotomized and taken along, or Tony stays behind with his daughter.  None of these is going to work well...

----------


## Gez

I'm pretty sure the Mysterious Hidden Being is lying; as covered by sihnfahl earlier in the thread.

If MHB is lying about the cruise, they can be lying about everything else. And if the higher-ups of the Court are believing MHB, it also means that what they think they know is built upon a foundation of lies. So what Aata is saying is what Aata thinks he knows from his stint in the secret organization, but not necessarily what is actually true. Most probably he's been deceived, like the rest.




> For a supposedly benevolent guy, Aata is coming across as a bit of a jerk, here.


Given his nature, he wasn't going to be invited, either. And I'm sure he fully knew that.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Most probably he's been deceived, like the rest.


None are so easily deceived as those who wish to believe.




> Given his nature, he wasn't going to be invited, either. And I'm sure he fully knew that.


Of course; however, given his nature, he was going to help anyway.

----------


## JavaScribe

> I also foresee a problem.  Annie is one of the ones who would never be allowed in this Brave New World unless the Fire Elemental could somehow be torn out of her.  Tony is apparently one of the important cogs in the Court's plans.  So.  Annie is left behind and Tony goes, Annie is Etherically lobotomized and taken along, or Tony stays behind with his daughter.  None of these is going to work well...


If this etheric lobotomy made her able to have offspring, maybe even multiple offspring, without dying like her ancestors, he could be convinced that it's for her own good. Even Antimony would probably consider it if that were possible.

----------


## Ionathus

Does the Court still need Tony? I got the impression he was working on the Omega device and they've basically got what they needed out of it...but maybe not. If they do want him to come with, I have an extremely hard time imagining that he'd be willing to abandon Antimony. My money's on him staying behind. 




> If this etheric lobotomy made her able to have offspring, maybe even multiple offspring, without dying like her ancestors, he could be convinced that it's for her own good. Even Antimony would probably consider it if that were possible.


I still don't know what Antimony herself thinks about that hypothetical consequence of her fire elemental heritage. We know how she feels about losing her mother...but we haven't been given much insight into how she feels about someday *being* a mother. 

Not that I really would want it, especially since she's still a teenager and the narrative has no business fixating on her becoming a parent since she's still a child and that's creepy.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Does the Court still need Tony?


Probably not.  He wasn't in the group.  And the Donlans didn't get invited, either, except Kat.

----------


## WanderingMist

> None are so easily deceived as those who wish to believe.


The Court doesn't believe. Casting aside belief is literally their entire point that they just spelled out.

I don't see why anyone would think this is a trick by some etheric being. There's no need for it to be one. It is not as if the entire Court is leaving. Only the shadow men, essentially, and not even all of them.

----------


## halfeye

> The Court doesn't believe. Casting aside belief is literally their entire point that they just spelled out.


Not believing in anything at all is not possible for anything that thinks.

----------


## sihnfahl

> The Court doesn't believe. Casting aside belief is literally their entire point that they just spelled out.


Belief in a world without Ether.  Of pure science.  Where dreams and belief in the supernatural hold no sway.

You would not call that a belief?




> There's no need for it to be one.


Neither was there a need for the etheric beings to convince Tony to create the 'antenna of bone', which almost killed Annie were it not for Zimmie, yet they did.

And Wisps trap beings in dreams.  Lies mixed with enough truth to be believable, and ensnare them until they perish in the hive.

There are malevolent beings tied to the ether.

----------


## Gez

> The Court doesn't believe. Casting aside belief is literally their entire point that they just spelled out.


And they _believe_ they can achieve that.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## JavaScribe

Their version of "science" is dogmatic enough, that they will probably accidentally turn their warped view of "science" into a new god, probably embodied as one of their top leadership. And they will be too stuck in their cult-like ways to even notice the irony.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Their version of "science" is dogmatic enough, that they will probably accidentally turn their warped view of "science" into a new god, probably embodied as one of their top leadership. And they will be too stuck in their cult-like ways to even notice the irony.


Well, that is theoretically how Jones came to be.  An immortal, indestructible, unbiased being that had existed since The Beginning, and observed all of history.

Which it won't talk about because that would stifle humanity's need to Discover.

----------


## 137beth

So, they need everyone in the world with ether to forget about the people going to the world without ether, or else the belief of the people in the world without ether could create magic in the world without ether?

----------


## WanderingMist

Knew it wasn't a simulation. Also, if they're already off Earth, how did Annie get there?

----------


## Pax1138

They seem to be attached to Earth, though as that one panel shows, the Court "protrudes" off of "Earth/reality?".  I'd imagine there's a main entrance to the Court where you can go in or out between the two.  I wonder which is more attached, the Court, or the Forest?  I'm guessing the Forest.

----------


## sihnfahl

> Also, if they're already off Earth, how did Annie get there?


Plane.  We've seen evidence of people leaving the court (Surma + Tony going to Brazil, Kat and her parents going around the world) via air.  Which is apparently so seamless that even Kat can't tell they weren't even on Earth.

The logical question, though, is going to be the terrestrial vs orbital observation point.

If the Court isn't ON Earth, then things like the Moon wouldn't be observed the same way.  Lunar alignment and orbit wouldn't match up with a terrestrial observation point.

----------


## wingnutx

> Not believing in anything at all is not possible for anything that thinks.


Unless you are Karl Hungus.

----------


## WanderingMist

> They seem to be attached to Earth, though as that one panel shows, the Court "protrudes" off of "Earth/reality?".  I'd imagine there's a main entrance to the Court where you can go in or out between the two.  I wonder which is more attached, the Court, or the Forest?  I'm guessing the Forest.


I figured the Forest _was_ the contact point with Earth, since the Court buts right up against it after all.




> Belief in a world without Ether.  Of pure science.  Where dreams and belief in the supernatural hold no sway.
> 
> You would not call that a belief?


It's not belief if you have a plan that makes it happen. 




> Neither was there a need for the etheric beings to convince Tony to create the 'antenna of bone', which almost killed Annie were it not for Zimmie, yet they did.


They did  exactly what Tony asked which was to get his wife's spirit back. It was not their fault he did not know how Surma's whole fire spirit inheritance worked.





> And Wisps trap beings in dreams.  Lies mixed with enough truth to be believable, and ensnare them until they perish in the hive.
> 
> There are malevolent beings tied to the ether.


These might be from a meta standpoint, but they're still relevant:

Having the Court's whole plan derailed by it actually being a Wisp illusion would be a cop-out. The Court isn't omniscient but they aren't _stupid_ either. No doubt they have ways of seeing through Wisps, especially since wisps _don't actually change the underlying reality, just the visual feedback._ 

We've already had the "this isn't reality, it's a Wisp illusion" happen twice (once with Annie in the Forest, and once with the other members of the Court), and there's already a different, far more malevolent being whose focus is currently an illusion trying to infiltrate the main cast.

----------


## halfeye

> It's not belief if you have a plan that makes it happen.


It is in English. In English, belief means believe <something> to be true, it doesn't stop being a belief if it turns out it is true.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> It is in English. In English, belief means believe <something> to be true, it doesn't stop being a belief if it turns out it is true.


To the point where 'knowing' something is 'a justified true belief.'

----------


## Gez

> It's not belief if you have a plan that makes it happen.


You mean, "if you believe you have a plan that you believe will make it happen".  :Small Wink:

----------


## WanderingMist

> It is in English. In English, belief means believe <something> to be true, it doesn't stop being a belief if it turns out it is true.





> To the point where 'knowing' something is 'a justified true belief.'





> You mean, "if you believe you have a plan that you believe will make it happen".


Accursed philosophy majors. That's either Kant or Kirkegaard with that "justified true belief" thing if I'm remembering my philosophers correctly.

I myself am more inclined to find knowledge antithetical to belief, or more accurately, supplants it once it is attained. There is no need for belief once knowledge has been acquired.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Accursed philosophy majors. That's either Kant or Kirkegaard with that "justified true belief" thing if I'm remembering my philosophers correctly.
> 
> I myself am more inclined to find knowledge antithetical to belief, or more accurately, supplants it once it is attained. There is no need for belief once knowledge has been acquired.


If you refuse to use a word correctly, of course you're going to have communication issues.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Accursed philosophy majors. That's either Kant or Kirkegaard with that "justified true belief" thing if I'm remembering my philosophers correctly.
> 
> I myself am more inclined to find knowledge antithetical to belief, or more accurately, supplants it once it is attained. There is no need for belief once knowledge has been acquired.


I feel like you are using the term 'belief' as close to synonymous with 'faith.' That is a way to use the word, but not the exhaustive meaning of the word.

----------


## sihnfahl

Okay, so that's the route he's going?

"Aliens are real because humans unknowingly manipulated the ether into creating aliens, just the same way humans unknowingly created creatures like Ysengrin, Coyote, Jones, etc."

Something still stinks about the 'alien' getting the Court to walk into the Ocean, though.

----------


## Rodin

> I feel like you are using the term 'belief' as close to synonymous with 'faith.' That is a way to use the word, but not the exhaustive meaning of the word.


It reminds me of the way Discworld addresses belief and lack of belief.

Gods dislike non-believers and people who believe but dont worship because they gain no benefit - people knowing you exist but not caring doesnt help.  A fanatical atheist on the other hand doesnt just think gods dont existhe believes they dont exist to such a degree it counts as worship again.

----------


## eee

It's looking more and more like the only reason the Court is successful is because they can manipulate the Ether, or have it be manipulated for them.  And they're going to give that up because they don't like it.

----------


## sihnfahl

> It's looking more and more like the only reason the Court is successful is because they can manipulate the Ether, or have it be manipulated for them.


Both.  Kat's parents, for example, utilize the ether.  Parley's fighting skills.  The fact that the rojak can fly...




> And they're going to give that up because they don't like it.


I think the implication of Aata's statement is that they won't be able to, even if they try.

Aliens?  Created by human belief.  The worlds they live on that the Court will 'travel' to?  Created by human belief.  All their tech, knowledge, etc... out of the ether.

Everything's going to be connected back to the Ether in some way...

----------


## eee

> Both.  Kat's parents, for example, utilize the ether.  Parley's fighting skills.  The fact that the rojak can fly...
> 
> 
> I think the implication of Aata's statement is that they won't be able to, even if they try.
> 
> Aliens?  Created by human belief.  The worlds they live on that the Court will 'travel' to?  Created by human belief.  All their tech, knowledge, etc... out of the ether.
> 
> Everything's going to be connected back to the Ether in some way...


I suspect the Court's obsession with Zimmy is a clue as to their plans.  They're not going to another world.  They're going to use all the power they've accumulated to create something like Zimmyngham, a pocket dimension / alternative universe.  Only this time, instead of being made of Zimmy's nightmares, it's going to be set up according to the Court's rules.  The chief of which is, No Ether.

----------


## Kornaki

Even this is questionable

https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=902

I'm supposed to believe this space creature that swims in the void between stars can only see underwater?

The only explanation that makes sense to me is the water in the pool is from the star ocean, and it metaphorically is outer space so is in fact her natural habitat.

Edit:
I just noticed this

https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2027

Coyote must have known about this plan? Although as far as we know antimony is not going.


https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2060

I guess this might be confirmation for the fact that they aren't really on earth.

----------


## WanderingMist

Ah, Annie's master plan for dealing with the Court matches Charles II of Spain, I see. 

"repeatedly baffling {the Court} by continuing to live"

----------


## Gez

> Even this is questionable
> 
> https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=902
> 
> I'm supposed to believe this space creature that swims in the void between stars can only see underwater?


No.
https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=905
https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=907
https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=914
https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=945

The whole thing was a ruse, letting the girls think that they were sneaking out successfully when in fact Lindsey was just letting them have some harmless fun.

----------


## Ionathus

Hmm, some big revelations in this one! By saving Annie with the TickTock, Kat seems to have broken the Court's plans...maybe even forced them to accelerate their exodus out of frustration?? 

Also, while not necessarily a retcon, it does make for an interesting reread of everything leading up to Annie's fall off the bridge. Did any staff Annie talked to know about her dying? I can't imagine Eglamore or Katja or Donny would have known, cause otherwise they'd have tried harder to stop it or been more distraught about her presence. Maybe it was just the higher-ups. What must it be like, to have a machine predict an (effective) orphan's death, and to just watch and wait for it to happen? Lots of layers in this one. 




> "repeatedly baffling {the Court} by continuing to live"


It is the best power that main characters have, after all!

----------


## sihnfahl

> By saving Annie with the TickTock, Kat seems to have broken the Court's plans


I think the entire exchange comes down to that by saving Annie, the Omega Device the Court was using for predictions stopped working reliably, getting worse because each event triggered by Annie cascaded down the timeline.  People met who probably wouldn't have met.  Outcomes would be different.

And maybe accelerated the plans?  If the Court's ultimate aim was to get away from the Ether anyway, then this is just doing it sooner.

----------


## JavaScribe

Since the Court uses Omega to make decisions, that means they had the option to save Annie and... decided not to. If there wasn't enough reason to before, I would want to get far away from the Court if I were in Antimony's shoes.

----------


## BRC

> Since the Court uses Omega to make decisions, that means they had the option to save Annie and... decided not to. If there wasn't enough reason to before, I would want to get far away from the Court if I were in Antimony's shoes.


Maybe the Omega device predicted that if Annie survived, it would become less accurate.

----------


## Ionathus

> Maybe the Omega device predicted that if Annie survived, it would become less accurate.


Maybe the Omega device predicted that she WOULD die, fixed-point-in-time style, and the Court thought that interfering could cause causal problems? 

That's probably being too charitable though. Likely their reaction really was "oh man, that's too bad, but saving her would muck up THE DATA" like you said.

----------


## WanderingMist

Theory time:

Zimmy is a failed Omega device, isn't she? Her real name is Zeta and she can't tell the difference between the past and the present. And since Gamma comes before Zeta in the Greek alphabet, that would mean the Court created Gamma first as a sort of control for their Omega Device.

----------


## Gez

> Since the Court uses Omega to make decisions, that means they had the option to save Annie and... decided not to. If there wasn't enough reason to before, I would want to get far away from the Court if I were in Antimony's shoes.


That's the problem of perfectly accurate prescience and free will. If you have perfectly accurate prescience that lets you know in advance of something bad that you could, from a non-prescient perspective, theoretically stop. But you know, with perfectly accurate prescience, that it will happen. That means that you know that you will not stop it. Maybe because you will actually fail to stop it. Maybe because you will not even bother. Regardless. You know why you will not stop it. If you make an attempt, you know that you will fail. But you do it anyway.

The only way to retain free will is to make the predictions not perfectly accurate. You see the future, but "it's only the future if you don't act" and you can change it. A lot of fiction goes this road. The problem, then, is that your actions are based on predictions that you know are false, and you know they are false because your actions will falsify them. So if you want perfectly accurate predictions... you need to never do anything, so the predictions can be validated as true, and that means that you can never do anything other than what you have predicted yourself doing, no matter the consequences.

The amusing thing about the whole exchange is that it's actually Kat who broke the entire prediction machine by sending her birdbot back in time. And the Court invited Kat to come with them on their ether-free planet...

----------


## sihnfahl

> That's the problem of perfectly accurate prescience and free will. If you have perfectly accurate prescience that lets you know in advance of something bad that you could, from a non-prescient perspective, theoretically stop. But you know, with perfectly accurate prescience, that it will happen. That means that you know that you will not stop it. Maybe because you will actually fail to stop it. Maybe because you will not even bother. Regardless. You know why you will not stop it. If you make an attempt, you know that you will fail. But you do it anyway.


Or you become apathetic.

I'm looking at you, Jadis.





> The amusing thing about the whole exchange is that it's actually Kat who broke the entire prediction machine by sending her birdbot back in time. And the Court invited Kat to come with them on their ether-free planet...


I doubt the Court knows Kat was the one who created the birds.  Or that time travel shenanigans thanks to the Norns was involved.  I don't see the Donlans talking about that to the Court.

----------


## Devlerbat

> Or you become apathetic.
> 
> I'm looking at you, Jadis.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt the Court knows Kat was the one who created the birds.  Or that time travel shenanigans thanks to the Norns was involved.  I don't see the Donlans talking about that to the Court.


I'm sure they don't know. And that is part of what makes it amusing; that they don't know how much they misunderstood their situation.

----------


## JavaScribe

> That's the problem of perfectly accurate prescience and free will. If you have perfectly accurate prescience that lets you know in advance of something bad that you could, from a non-prescient perspective, theoretically stop. But you know, with perfectly accurate prescience, that it will happen. That means that you know that you will not stop it. Maybe because you will actually fail to stop it. Maybe because you will not even bother. Regardless. You know why you will not stop it. If you make an attempt, you know that you will fail. But you do it anyway.


That's pre determinism. If it was using pre determinism, then there wouldn't be any point in using the machine for advice. From the sounds of it, their machine is derived from Laplace's Demon, which is determinism. So yes, acting on the machine's predictions will mess up previous predictions, but you can just recalculate them. Heck, if your machine is really good, it can calculate you different paths you can plan out.

I assume the reason the machine has been messed up is because it relies on the ether, both for gathering data and the calculation. And as we all know, the Court doesn't really get the ether.

----------


## Kornaki

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this is not kat's fault. Sure, she built the birds and did the weird time travel.  But she isn't the person that initiated the events of that night. 

Ysengrin set up robot to go back across the bridge, but he's just coyotes tool, and we know coyote is the one that took down the tik tok. I used to think he did that because he wanted something down there to piss off ysengrin, but now I think he did it because the tik tok had accomplished his goals - break the omega device,  and set up all the events in this comic that lead to him forcing Annie to kill him/loup.

He can know everything if he wants to,  so he certainly could have rigged things to get into this stable time loop they're currently in.

----------


## Gez

> That's pre determinism. If it was using pre determinism, then there wouldn't be any point in using the machine for advice. From the sounds of it, their machine is derived from Laplace's Demon, which is determinism. So yes, acting on the machine's predictions will mess up previous predictions, but you can just recalculate them. Heck, if your machine is really good, it can calculate you different paths you can plan out.


But then the machine would not be getting increasingly wrong as time passes from the first missed prediction. It could be asked to recompute the situation based on the world as it is now, with a live Annie, and be just as accurate as it was before. Apparently it cannot.

----------


## sihnfahl

> He can know everything if he wants to...


Except on what it's like to die.

That he had to engineer.

----------


## JavaScribe

> But then the machine would not be getting increasingly wrong as time passes from the first missed prediction. It could be asked to recompute the situation based on the world as it is now, with a live Annie, and be just as accurate as it was before. Apparently it cannot.


I assume the nature of her survival messed up the magic that makes it work. As we all know, the Court knows how to use the ether, but doesn't actually understand how it works. Jealousy aside, one reason they dislike it is because they view a lot of etheric tech as intrinsically unreliable.

----------


## sihnfahl

> I assume the nature of her survival messed up the magic that makes it work.


Well, time manipulation will mess up almost any predictive machine.  It's not something that can be predicted, really, if the concept of time travel isn't even in your tool set of 'possible actions taken'.





> As we all know, the Court knows how to use the ether, but doesn't actually understand how it works. Jealousy aside, one reason they dislike it is because they view a lot of etheric tech as intrinsically unreliable.


I don't recall them saying it was unreliable.  Problem is that it IS reliable, and they're tearing their hair out because they can't figure out the whys and hows.  It's a black box.

----------


## Kornaki

The omega device is unreliable since it doesn't work anymore.

----------


## sihnfahl

> The omega device is unreliable since it doesn't work anymore.


But up until Annie's 'anomaly', it had been pretty reliable and accurate.  It was sending Court folks to places around the world to witness 'events'.

All the rest of the etheric tech continued to work, apparently.  The 'ring' that defines Gunnerkrigg is regular tech + etheric channeling.

----------


## Willie the Duck

Not that I think this will come to fruition, but:

Loup, seriously? You think this _might_ be what Coyote was interested in, so now you are done with Annie? 1) what if this guess is wrong? 2) can't she help you get closer to said ocean? 3) What if Coyote had other goals/interests? 4) don't you think whatever you are planning will raise more suspicions than just going along as before?

Of course either Annie or one of the powerhouses will stop this or more likely his crush/residual Ysengrin affection/whatever will stop him before he starts.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> Loup, seriously? You think this _might_ be what Coyote was interested in, so now you are done with Annie? 1) what if this guess is wrong? 2) can't she help you get closer to said ocean? 3) What if Coyote had other goals/interests? 4) don't you think whatever you are planning will raise more suspicions than just going along as before?


I think "this fool" may refer to Jerrek rather than Annie. He's itching to dump the body.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> I think "this fool" may refer to Jerrek rather than Annie. He's itching to dump the body.


That would make more sense story-wise, but I didn't think Loup thought of the form as an entity, just a disguise. I guess we'll see next update.

----------


## eee

> Not that I think this will come to fruition, but:
> 
> Loup, seriously? You think this _might_ be what Coyote was interested in, so now you are done with Annie? 1) what if this guess is wrong? 2) can't she help you get closer to said ocean? 3) What if Coyote had other goals/interests? 4) don't you think whatever you are planning will raise more suspicions than just going along as before?
> 
> Of course either Annie or one of the powerhouses will stop this or more likely his crush/residual Ysengrin affection/whatever will stop him before he starts.


Don't forget, Ysengrin would occasionally go off the tracks and get violent, even towards Annie.  That might be the cause of Loup's rush to judgement and his harsh attitude.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Don't forget, Ysengrin would occasionally go off the tracks and get violent, even towards Annie.  That might be the cause of Loup's rush to judgement and his harsh attitude.


Yes, I know. That's why my alternate theory is that Annie, Eglamore, or similar will have a response. I certainly don't think Loup will kill Annie tomorrow. Manga Shaggoth raises a good point about him maybe meaning his guise-form, but him treating it like a separate person seems off.

----------


## Typewriter

I feel like I've said this before but the pace of the comic has been shot all to hell for me for the last few years. Like I feel like the first 'arc' was everything up until Jeanne. Then we had a few chapters that served as an intermission. Then the second 'arc' began and I have lost all concept of time and story progression since then.

Loup is here.

The forest attacks!

Time jump time~

Two Annies?

One Annie?

The forest attacks again!

Space magic~

And I'm just... I don't know. I love the comic, I don't even think any of the above is bad necessarily, it just doesn't flow as well as the first 60 chapters. It's like those 60 chapters established a foundation to a pyramid that was going to build upon itself and eventually reach a point. Everything felt like it was in place, everything worked well together. Then they started doing the second layer of the pyramid - putting down a few bricks to move forward some of those established plot points - Jeanne, the return of Annies dad - and then it just went crazy. Now we've got piles of bricks everywhere and we run back and forth between piles and each pile is becoming its own creation instead of building upon the foundation that was laid for it. Is the school still going? Are they all still in refugee status? How long has it been since... any of this stuff started? I seem to recall that the time jump was 6 months but how long has it been since then? Since the most recent attack? Days? Months? Years?  I feel like in one chapter we get a view of the court and it's destroyed and in the next chapter it looks like its fine - and people are sitting around drinking martinis under beach umbrellas.

About a year ago I thought maybe it was just the fact that I needed a re-read and I did so and still felt like the whole shift was jarring and awkward.

Sorry for the rant, I don't know anyone else who reads the comic so this is the only place I have to talk about it and right now talking about it runs parallel to venting.

----------


## JavaScribe

> I feel like I've said this before but the pace of the comic has been shot all to hell for me for the last few years. Like I feel like the first 'arc' was everything up until Jeanne. Then we had a few chapters that served as an intermission. Then the second 'arc' began and I have lost all concept of time and story progression since then.


You are hardly alone. I stopped reading it for a while, and only recently decided to catch up. There are major plot points I can't make any sense of.

Like the two Annies thing. At first I thought it was sort of cool that Antimony now had a twin sister, and while I figured it was highly vulnerable to a status quo reset, I wondered if the two Antimony's might diverge over time, or at least promote some other form of character development.

First we hear that the duplicate, whomever it was, involves multiple timelines, then we hear that they have nothing to do with time travel (without receiving a replacement explanation), then there's suddenly one Antimony again. And that's it. The most we got out of it was something about her father temporarily opening up. What was even the point of that?

----------


## Kornaki

I think the problem is this comic was founded on mystery. The Forest, the Court,  the robots,  the Ether, there was just a lot of stuff going on.   Then we learned how it all works. I think the whole story would flow better if we knew about the star ocean for the last 30 chapters, and only learned last chapter coyotes great secret.  

Then we might be invested in wondering if the plan even works, and wonder is where the comic thrives. Instead we already know it's a terrible plan that has no chance of succeeding.   Even the big bad ether creature is like,  operating at a lower level than our actual protagonists.   


Maybe that's why ysengrin was so annoyed at coyote.  He knew the story was going downhill once the beans were spilled.

----------


## Ionathus

I've felt like we're in the endgame for years now -- ever since Coyote died. It's just been taking awhile to come to fruition, presumably because Tom had a lot of setup to get through. 

But I think that frazzled, jumbled feeling is intentional. I kinda like how everyone's been pushed around, jostled, in refugee status and being toyed with by Loup and not certain how it's all going to come together. The execution could've been better for me, but the arc of it makes sense given how big of a shakeup Coyote's death was.

Webcomics are hard to end with good pacing. I remember the pacing of Dr. McNinja also got really muddled in its last 4 or 5 storylines as he tried to tie off all the loose ends so they'd pay off in the finale.

----------


## Jimorian

> I think the problem is this comic was founded on mystery. The Forest, the Court,  the robots,  the Ether, there was just a lot of stuff going on.   Then we learned how it all works. I think the whole story would flow better if we knew about the star ocean for the last 30 chapters, and only learned last chapter coyotes great secret. [...]


That's one of the major issues with serial storytelling in general. It's very easy for a story early on to ask questions and leave things to the imagination of the audience. But when it comes time to wrap things up and _answer_ those questions, then each answer is going to close off possibilities, some of which the audience may have significant mental investments in hoping will be the outcome.

So you have a shift into a restrictive storytelling structure instead of the initial expanding one, and even if it's done well, it's inevitable that you're going to lose people in that act of bringing everything back to the point of the whole exercise in the first place.

----------


## Pax1138

We also lost the grounding of the school setting.  The passage of the years as they changed grades and dorms, structure for kids who had places to be and things to do.  But now post-attack, they just kinda hang out all the time (and Kat makes robots).  I just finished a reread of the whole thing, and it does feel more cohesive read that way, but it does still feel like they're skipping over the top of highlights, rather than establishing what life is actually like for them now.  There has been a lot of exposition lately, which leads me to hope something big is going to hit soon.  There's nothing between Loup and Annie/the tooth but air and opportunity at this point.

----------


## Willie the Duck

Okay, so definitely not how I had this pictured. Loup seems to very much treat his guise as a separate entity which he delivers commands to, rather than a disguise he wears.

----------


## Typewriter

I think it's sort of a 'role' he's taking on that is a bit more honest than he prefers. Like if you are talking to someone and find yourself saying something you know you shouldn't - your brain is screaming at you to shut up as the words pour out.

----------


## WanderingMist

There's 2 tails on Loup's last speech bubble. Someone's starting to split apart.

----------


## wingnutx

Neat sleeping pods.

----------


## Ionathus

> I think it's sort of a 'role' he's taking on that is a bit more honest than he prefers. Like if you are talking to someone and find yourself saying something you know you shouldn't - your brain is screaming at you to shut up as the words pour out.


I've been there. Granted, I wasn't a fractured woodland god posing as a robot-turned-pseudo-human, but I've definitely shouted "stop, stop, you dunce" at myself mentally.

----------


## eee

Loup keeps running into these unforeseen complications...

----------


## Gez

Another story of a girl that falls in love with a jerrek

----------


## WanderingMist

Oh no, he's pulled himself back together...for now.

----------


## Rodin

> Oh no, he's pulled himself back together...for now.


Key word: for now.

I think he's going to find "Jerrek" far harder to go against than he believes.

----------


## hungrycrow

Man, has Loup's plan devolved into making Annie jealous? This is great!

----------


## Ionathus

My hope is that it fails miserably, because Annie was never interested in him romantically. 

Honestly I give it 50/50 odds: we haven't seen Annie blush or react to Jerrek at all as anything but a friend. But then, Annie is very good at hiding her feelings, so she could definitely have them. 

Either way, I doubt that she'd react outwardly, at least to start with. So hopefully we get at least a panel of Jerrek going "Oh no what have I doneeeee" no matter what happens after that.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Willie the Duck

I agree, she hasn't shown an interest. 
She could, upon hearing that he was interested in her and then suddenly he's seeing this other person, pull the old 'I didn't know I wanted this, but since I was told I could have it and now I can't, it feels like a loss' trope. That's not something we've seen her do before, but it is a teen drama now, so maybe she'll fall into it. I realize that we haven't seen a lot of romantic interest from Annie. Or strong emotions over most things on the interpersonal* scale not related to her family. She's not Jones-like in emotionlessness, but she doesn't usually show much emotion.
*She obviously has strong feelings on going-berserk Ysengrin or Loup burning up Renard's body or the like

From where it looks at the moment, it feels more like Loup misplaying his hand (admittedly reasonable, since self-involved just-born entity with knowledge of two ancient beings but no practical experience ought not be great at understanding the mindsets of others).

----------


## WanderingMist

> Man, has Loup's plan devolved into making Annie jealous? This is great!


Given that this is part of Coyote's plan, it probably started out as nothing more than that in the first place



> I agree, she hasn't shown an interest. 
>  I realize that we haven't seen a lot of romantic interest from Annie. Or strong emotions over most things on the interpersonal* scale not related to her family. She's not Jones-like in emotionlessness, but she doesn't usually show much emotion.


Annie doesn't show much emotion in general. She gets that from Tony.

----------


## hungrycrow

> Given that this is part of Coyote's plan, it probably started out as nothing more than that in the first place
> 
> 
> Annie doesn't show much emotion in general. She gets that from Tony.


It's been a while but I feel like she showed some emotion over her not boyfriend Jack?

----------


## Pax1138

I'd say she tends not to _show_ emotion, but she might explode into tears over something when no one else (or only Kat maybe) is around, as we've seen before.  But given what the pace has become, we may not have time for a emotional slowdown with Kat any more.  Or it could be an entire chapter while important things happen in the background and there's a time skip.

----------


## Vinyadan

Oh yes, a robo-human with a thousand-yard stare, girlfriend edition. Loup is outdoing himself here in his nefarious plan.  :Small Cool:

----------


## DaFlipp

I just had an odd theory pop into my head. This is not especially well-reasoned or even something that I actually *believe*, more of a "Well this might fit the data, wouldn't that be interesting" scenario.

We've taken as given that Loup is the amalgam of two characters, Ysengrin and Coyote. But hear me out: What if there was a fragment of Renard in the mix, too? What if the incineration of Renard's body was a Coyote-ish illusion, a ruse to throw off the fact that, at some point offscreen, the portion of Renard still in Coyote's care was added into the mix in some fashion? 

It would certainly shed some new light on the Loup-has-a-cruuuuush aspect of things, in any event, considering that at the time Renard abandoned that body, he was in full-on I WILL WIN SURMA'S LOVE mode.

(I also want to point out I have no idea *when* Renard would've been assimilated. Did Coyote absorb him before granting Ysengrin his power? Did Loup absorb him after the Court's recent assault on him in hopes of getting a power boost, only to be "tainted" by Renard's residual affection for Antimony/Surma?)

----------


## WanderingMist

Ah, it's day 4 now. Loup is becoming a dead goose.

----------


## eee

Loup's disguise taking on a life of its own is a possibility.  On the other hand, they are getting closer to the Ocean of Stars.  It is possible that might be having a massive effect on an Etheric being like Loup.

Lana is so happy.

----------


## DaFlipp

> Ah, it's day 4 now. Loup is becoming a dead goose.


...oh man, I'd *forgotten* that story! Yeah that's a much simpler explanation for these shenanigans than my theory.

----------


## hungrycrow

Could Loup's disguise work so well it "convinces" the star ocean he isn't etheric?

----------


## eee

Normally you have to scratch a canine on the right spot on their back to get leg tapping like that.

Maybe Lana could try that.

----------


## SirSoliloquy

Well, so much for not hurting the new people. Wonder where this will lead?

----------


## WanderingMist

> Well, so much for not hurting the new people. Wonder where this will lead?


To his death. Annie will have to kill Loup to prevent Robot from doing something even worse to him for harming one of the New People.

----------


## SirSoliloquy

> To his death. Annie will have to kill Loup to prevent Robot from doing something even worse to him for harming one of the New People.


Well, I mean, his death is already preordained.

----------


## eee

THAT'S unexpected depth of feeling!

Let's see how the idiot (Loup) handles that.

----------


## WanderingMist

That sure was a turn.

Some of the comments on the page seem to be incapable of understanding that this is a totally irrational decision and are claiming that this page somehow normalizes abuse.

----------


## tyckspoon

> That sure was a turn.
> 
> Some of the comments on the page seem to be incapable of understanding that this is a totally irrational decision and are claiming that this page somehow normalizes abuse.


My interpretation is Lana 'knows how to act' based mainly on reading a lot of probably kind of terrible books. So this is just snapping into a different script from the romance sections. Which of course is a horribly unhealthy model for relationships, because.. romance books.

----------


## Gez

Shot through with hearts, and she's to blame...

----------


## WanderingMist

Can't imagine what anyone who decided to start reading Gunnerkrigg Court today would think upon seeing that as their first panel.

----------


## eee

And what happened, then? Well, in Whoville they say  that the Grinch's small heart grew three sizes that day."

----------


## Kornaki

What does alunda mean?

----------


## Neoriceisgood

Loup is my favorite character, I'm glad he's become a co-protagonist for this story. Deuteragonist? 

Anyway, I hope we follow his hijinx for a long time to come! He's so funny.

----------


## WanderingMist

Also, just putting this together now, Loup is etheric, the ether is shaped by belief, the star ocean is already messing with his control and Lana really, really believes in the books she's read.

----------


## Gez

> What does alunda mean?


The best result I got was this quaint little town, whose name apparently means "trident grove".

I don't think this is the intended meaning, however.

----------


## geoduck

Alunda is a reference to the Ringo Starr comedy movie "Caveman"; it's the word for "love" in the film's intentionally dopey caveman-language.

----------


## eee

RE Treatise 10:  That's lovely.  I especially like Jerrek and Lana,

Tony wearing a dress just doesn't work.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

One window broken. Annie's mother? Or possibly Jeanie?

----------


## WanderingMist

> RE Treatise 10:  That's lovely.  I especially like Jerrek and Lana,
> 
> Tony wearing a dress just doesn't work.


It's a toga, as evidenced by Smitty and Jerrek also wearing them.

----------


## Rodin

> One window broken. Annie's mother? Or possibly Jeanie?


If you mean the cracked window, that's Tony.

Who is the angel in the bottom right?

----------


## tyckspoon

> If you mean the cracked window, that's Tony.
> 
> Who is the angel in the bottom right?


That's the image Robot presented when guiding the other robots through character creation for their New People bodies.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> If you mean the cracked window, that's Tony.


That would have been my first guess, but the character looks female. Besides, isn't Tony the face of the sun in Annie's frame?

----------


## WanderingMist

> That would have been my first guess, but the character looks female. Besides, isn't Tony the face of the sun in Annie's frame?


No, because that same face is in the moon and it looks nothing like Tony.

----------


## Drogorn

What symbol is that in Kat's hair?  I assumed it was an alchemical symbol, but I wasn't able to figure it out looking at a list of alchemical symbols.

----------


## Shadow of the Sun

> What symbol is that in Kat's hair?  I assumed it was an alchemical symbol, but I wasn't able to figure it out looking at a list of alchemical symbols.


It's the symbol of the creator the Court's robots gave her. It's a profile of Diego's nose.

----------


## Murk

> It's a profile of Diego's nose.


I absolutely _love_ this joke, but I feel we should be clear it's a joke.

----------


## Pax1138

Hmm, any thoughts on the Gummy people in the upper right?  Possibly just Court personnel who are going to the new world?

Edit:



> I absolutely _love_ this joke, but I feel we should be clear it's a joke.


Oh, glad you said this.  Had me going for a second there.

----------


## Vinyadan

Is that a B^U reference?  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Vinyadan

OK, this is CAD reference all right. I like how what was substantially an attempt at intimidation was reframed as an imploration by the costumer to the provider.

----------


## Vinyadan

Little-known fact: Excel used to include a major easter egg, where you would be able to walk around in an environment called "Hall of Tortured Souls".

----------


## Shadow of the Sun

> Little-known fact: Excel used to include a major easter egg, where you would be able to walk around in an environment called "Hall of Tortured Souls".


Excel is also kind of a swiss-army-knife of a program - you can make pretty much anything in Excel, including videogames, DAWs, etc.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Little-known fact: Excel used to include a major easter egg, where you would be able to walk around in an environment called "Hall of Tortured Souls".


I think in nerd circles, that might qualify as one of those always-known-little-known facts. 

Regardless, Excel is great, right up until it autoformats your dataset, killing off your leading zeroes or the like. Or worse, your client wants the output of a SQL database pull in an Excel spreadsheet, and has a format in mind from Excel that can't be replicated and you spend 3 hours looking up ODS output structures with a green employee tasked with producing this report (due yesterday).

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

> Little-known fact: Excel used to include a major easter egg, where you would be able to walk around in an environment called "Hall of Tortured Souls".


I though Excel V5 was the one with the basic flight sim...

Yup - it's a useful tool (been using it since the Win 3.1/3.11 days), but you do have to know what you are doing with it. Irritatingly, it has become harder to get it to do things right the more it has been "upgraded"...

----------


## tyckspoon

> I think in nerd circles, that might qualify as one of those always-known-little-known facts. 
> 
> Regardless, Excel is great, right up until it autoformats your dataset, killing off your leading zeroes or the like. Or worse, your client wants the output of a SQL database pull in an Excel spreadsheet, and has a format in mind from Excel that can't be replicated and you spend 3 hours looking up ODS output structures with a green employee tasked with producing this report (due yesterday).


Ah yes. "Excel is not a database, please get a proper database application for this usage." "Yeah, well, that costs money and I already have an Office license, so make it work in Excel." -proceed to bill customer for multiple days of labor required to hack the database and Excel into almost-but-not-quite having compatible data handling, costing about three times what it would have to set them up with a database client-

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## WanderingMist

Peak comedy as always.

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## eee

OK, that... hit below the belt.

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## Vinyadan

> I though Excel V5 was the one with the basic flight sim...


I tried searching for it, and there are a few different major Easter eggs for the various editions. There's the Hall of Tortured Souls, the flight simulator, and also a car chasing game called "Dev Hunter".




> OK, that... hit below the belt.


I wonder if the soundtrack is by the Bee Gees.

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## WanderingMist

Just...the fact that these are funny only because they're so intentionally unfunny is actually hard to pull off.

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## eee

He's taking this well.

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## eee

I'm really liking these two, together.

This isn't going to end well.

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## halfeye

> I'm really liking these two, together.
> 
> This isn't going to end well.


I dunno, it's probably not going to end the way Coyote wanted it to, but that might not be a bad thing.

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## Murk

Gunnerkrigg is at its best when it's just a story about two girls getting a haircut, or a girl having a boyfriend that's actually a robot wolf dog god.

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## Daffy Dutch

> Gunnerkrigg is at its best when it's just a story about two girls getting a haircut, or a girl having a boyfriend that's actually a robot wolf dog god.


Yeah some of the best content is really the low-stakes stuff where we get to watch the characters vibe and watch their personalities bounce off of each other. It is nice that we're finally getting some questions answered and learning some of the mysteries of the court now though.

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## WanderingMist

I'm starting to think I understand what Coyote's plan is and why Loup would want to die when he figured it out.

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## eee

The stakes are suddenly getting much higher.

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## WanderingMist

Why is Kat saying Loup's off the hook?

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## eee

M, V, U?  Mercury or Mars, Venus, but what the bleep is U???  Uranus?  In the inner Solar System?




> Why is Kat saying Loup's off the hook?


If the Court's running away, they're not interested in fighting him anymore?

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## Rodin

> If the Court's running away, they're not interested in fighting him anymore?


That's how I read it.  If the Court is trapped they need to fight Loup for survival, and while Loup is powerful he's also extremely naive and not terribly smart.  The Court could almost certainly outmaneuver and defeat him if they were motivated enough.  Even if they don't win, the cost to Loup is likely to be extreme.

The star ocean gives the Court a way out without looking like they're running away.  They always planned to do this, Loup isn't important enough for them to respond.  The confrontation doesn't happen, and everyone is better for it.

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## WanderingMist

> M, V, U?  Mercury or Mars, Venus, but what the bleep is U???  Uranus?  In the inner Solar System?


No, just a 2-D model of a 3-D system. This isn't a top-down view of the solar system, it's a side view from very far away.

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## Pax1138

> That's how I read it.  If the Court is trapped they need to fight Loup for survival, and while Loup is powerful he's also extremely naive and not terribly smart.  The Court could almost certainly outmaneuver and defeat him if they were motivated enough.  Even if they don't win, the cost to Loup is likely to be extreme.
> 
> The star ocean gives the Court a way out without looking like they're running away.  They always planned to do this, Loup isn't important enough for them to respond.  The confrontation doesn't happen, and everyone is better for it.


Not even fight.  Remember they wanted to steal his power to help make this escape function.  I think what Kat's saying is they're beyond needing his power to make this word, thus, he's off the hook.

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## Kornaki

> Not even fight.  Remember they wanted to steal his power to help make this escape function.  I think what Kat's saying is they're beyond needing his power to make this word, thus, he's off the hook.


For what it's worth,  I don't think any view of the solar system can cause the orbits to appear to change convexity like that, so there are artistic liberties being taken,  or perhaps their solar system doesn't work the same way.

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## Clertar

This whole star ocean reveal seems rushed, but oh well.

Kat's question about another being with a Coyote-like ether is pretty sinister. It's not just me, right?

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## sihnfahl

> Kat's question about another being with a Coyote-like ether is pretty sinister. It's not just me, right?


There's the Psychopomps...

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## eee

Gosh, RENARD, can you, RENARD, think of any other being, RENARD, who might have power even close to Coyote, RENARD?

----------


## sihnfahl

> Gosh, RENARD, can you, RENARD, think of any other being, RENARD, who might have power even close to Coyote, RENARD?


If that were the case, and the Star Ocean has existed this long, my thought is that they'd never had been needing to capture Coyote in the first place.

They had Reynard.  They could have used him a long time ago.  How many times have the Shadow Men been near Reynard.

----------


## Manga Shoggoth

I think it's more likley to be Zimmy. Reynard is powerful, but I don't think he's anywhere near Coyote's level.

----------


## JavaScribe

Some things I've been wondering:

* What is the Court's legal status, is it a Protectorate of the UK or an independent citystate?
* How does it's economy work? Even if the Court is fully self-sufficient, they must have some system for exchanging favors, both internally and with the outside world. Do they have wealthy sponsors, or subordinate companies?

----------


## Shadow of the Sun

I honestly immediately assumed it was Kat, due to the worship of the robots.

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## WanderingMist

> I think it's more likley to be Zimmy. Reynard is powerful, but I don't think he's anywhere near Coyote's level.


Plus we have the beginning of this chapter with Zimmy noticing something changed and being very distraught about it.

----------


## 137beth

*Spoiler: Today's page*
Show

 Yep.  It's Zimmy.

----------


## WanderingMist

Renard, Zimmy does not look like that.

----------


## WanderingMist

Actually, is it just me, or does Renard's version of Zimmy kind of look like Gamma? Jack said way back that they were "way more than that" when Annie called them "an item" (or something along those lines). Could they have been two halves of the same person this whole time? It would also make sense of why Zimmy knew how to put Annie back together again.

----------


## Willie the Duck

Other than maybe having very full lips (and Zimmy usually having just a line), I don't really see Gamma in the depiction either. 

I'm not at all sure what is supposed to be going on with this. I'm not getting it at all. The off-the-shoulder shirt makes it look vaguely like this is a crush-worthy mental image, but we haven't really seen Rey think that way about school children (aside from a side comment about not minding if Annie and Kat made out in a very early strip which might have been early-installment weirdness). The pose is more like he's picturing her dancing. The 'we're friends now' bit doesn't clear it up any for me (anyone have a link to where that happens, btw?). It could be anything.

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## WanderingMist

> Other than maybe having very full lips (and Zimmy usually having just a line), I don't really see Gamma in the depiction either. 
> 
> I'm not at all sure what is supposed to be going on with this. I'm not getting it at all. The off-the-shoulder shirt makes it look vaguely like this is a crush-worthy mental image, but we haven't really seen Rey think that way about school children (aside from a side comment about not minding if Annie and Kat made out in a very early strip which might have been early-installment weirdness). The pose is more like he's picturing her dancing. The 'we're friends now' bit doesn't clear it up any for me (anyone have a link to where that happens, btw?). It could be anything.


Tom's comment below today's comic makes this kind of hilarious. Like, he's _probably_ just trolling, but there's always the possibility he isn't.

----------


## Vinyadan

Reynard's image of Zimmy looks like a mix between a flapper and some pictures of women during the neoclassical Macedonian Renaissance in Byzantine art.

----------


## eee

Dang, he's good.

----------


## wingnutx

Zimmy looks so happy to see her.

----------


## WanderingMist

What do you mean worse things, Zimmy? _What do you mean?_

----------


## eee

For Zimmy to say that, and immediately break into a sweat, makes me very uneasy.  And worried for her.

----------


## Vinyadan

> What do you mean worse things, Zimmy? _What do you mean?_


*Spoiler*
Show

She's scared of Kate, who looks like a massive iron god to her, and who has lately successfully turned the robots into people -- robots who have built a cult around her. 

And then a forest god also turned into a robot and has problems separating himself from the part of a teenage robot, so he might end up also joining the cult, unless being a teenager drives him in the opposite direction.

It's just speculation, but it looks worrysome.

----------


## WanderingMist

Zimmy...Zimmy thinks Kat's with the Court, doesn't she? And the way she refers to Omega as if it were a person is...worrying, considering, if I recall correctly, that Zimmy's real name is Zeta. But if Omega predicts things with near-100% accuracy, what if Omega _planned_ on Kat using itself to find Zimmy in order to locate her for the Court without Kat knowing that's what she was doing?

----------


## Vinyadan

> Zimmy...Zimmy thinks Kat's with the Court, doesn't she? And the way she refers to Omega as if it were a person is...worrying, considering, if I recall correctly, that Zimmy's real name is Zeta. But if Omega predicts things with near-100% accuracy, what if Omega _planned_ on Kat using itself to find Zimmy in order to locate her for the Court without Kat knowing that's what she was doing?


This sort of predictive activity reminds me of a couple of things: one is how Kat had a glance at another time where she lost Annie, and had the foresight to send back a bird to save her. The bird was not destroyed, and instead built itself inside the Annan riverbank into what looked to me like a station meant to collect information.

But also of how Coyote interrogated Ysengrim to know what he would do when the time came.

----------


## Devlerbat

> Zimmy...Zimmy thinks Kat's with the Court, doesn't she? And the way she refers to Omega as if it were a person is...worrying, considering, if I recall correctly, that Zimmy's real name is Zeta. But if Omega predicts things with near-100% accuracy, what if Omega _planned_ on Kat using itself to find Zimmy in order to locate her for the Court without Kat knowing that's what she was doing?


Did anyone make mention of the Zeta, Gamma, Omega thing before now? I am starting to feel like this was I think we should have noticed before, but I suppose we had no reason to really think of Zimmy in regard to the Omega device plot until this chapter.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Did anyone make mention of the Zeta, Gamma, Omega thing before now? I am starting to feel like this was I think we should have noticed before, but I suppose we had no reason to really think of Zimmy in regard to the Omega device plot until this chapter.


Zeta is also the final letter of the Latin alphabet (it's actually an import from Greek, in Latin it's known both as ze and zeta), and omega is the final letter of the Greek alphabet (in the Greek alphabet zeta is around the various e sounds, in the first half).

----------


## WanderingMist

Wait. Is Annie herself Omega and the Court's just spying on her?

----------


## eee

O...kay.  Things just went really... bad.

----------


## wingnutx

Omega is Zimmy herself, or is somehow powered by her already?

----------


## WanderingMist

> Omega is Zimmy herself, or is somehow powered by her already?


I'm starting to think Kat may be Omega, and that Omega was the one giving the star ocean speech.

----------


## Willie the Duck

> Omega is Zimmy herself, or is somehow powered by her already?





> I'm starting to think Kat may be Omega, and that Omega was the one giving the star ocean speech.


Honestly, why can't they all just be Omega? Maybe the real Omega is the Omega they find inside themselves

More seriously, could it be that Omega is something that they unintentionally build to stop the Court, which was the Court's plan all along?

----------


## wingnutx

Everyone knows that the real Omega is Charleton Heston.

----------


## Blackdrop

> This sort of predictive activity reminds me of a couple of things: one is how Kat had a glance at another time where she lost Annie, and had the foresight to send back a bird to save her. The bird was not destroyed, and instead built itself inside the Annan riverbank into what looked to me like a station meant to collect information.
> 
> But also of how Coyote interrogated Ysengrim to know what he would do when the time came.


Here's an idea: what if the Court has been using a Zimmy as wireless human computer and _Zimmy World_ is Omega? Maybe the Omega Device isn't a computer running a prediction program, but it's a machine that lets them view an etheric simulation of reality.

----------


## Devlerbat

What if, on Kate's end, all she sees is a normal computer and, after finding her, thinks she is helping Zimmy out by deleting the info the Court has on her. Which is how she kills Zimmy with Omega.

----------


## WanderingMist

> What if, on Kate's end, all she sees is a normal computer and, after finding her, thinks she is helping Zimmy out by deleting the info the Court has on her. Which is how she kills Zimmy with Omega.


That makes a terrifying amount of sense.

----------

