# Forum > Comics > Webcomics >  Hero Oh Hero

## lord_khaine

Start here
A hilariously funny webcomic that i felt deserved a thread, and a chance for people to discover. 
Read on and find the source of quotes such as 

"From one Exhibitionist to another, i Respect your zeal in chosing to streak a heavily guarded castle, Sir"

"Diplomatic Weapon #1! Money!"

"WHY IS THERE A (censored) PINK EAGLE IN MY FACE?"

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## Kantaki

Hero Oh Hero is great, yeah.
Though I prefer Noah's Arc.
The adventure in the cow's head was hilarious. :Small Big Grin: 
And his mirror-girlfriend is pretty amusing too.

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## Lord Raziere

Has it finally stopped restarting over and over again?

I kept reading it, but the author constantly seemed to be stopping and restarting it from the beginning without knowing where its going, and I just dropped off from it because of that.

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## Kantaki

> Has it finally stopped restarting over and over again?
> 
> I kept reading it, but the author constantly seemed to be stopping and restarting it from the beginning without knowing where its going, and I just dropped off from it because of that.


Not sure what you mean.
As far as I know the comic got restarted once.

Or are you talking about the changing main character?
Then yes, it's still cycling between the three of them.

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## Anteros

I got about 340 comics in and just gave up.  I feel like after 340 comics I should at least have a handle on who the characters are and what the overall story is supposed to be, but there's been none of that at all. I've said this before about other stories, but being cryptic is not an acceptable substitute for an actual plot.  There's probably a decent payoff if you're willing to read the whole thing to get to it, but it's too much of an investment for me.

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## Gez

I'm sure HOH had a previous thread that fell by the wayside. Though it might have started as an APTGG thread.

Anyway: the way to read HOH is to see it not as one comic, but as three separate comics, unrelated except for being in the same "universe" , that are posted alternatively.

Kind of like The Meek for this. Yeah the three stories are supposed to converge eventually, but since nobody knows when it will actually happen, it's best enjoyed if you forget about this and see each separate storyline as standalone.

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## lord_khaine

> I got about 340 comics in and just gave up. I feel like after 340 comics I should at least have a handle on who the characters are and what the overall story is supposed to be, but there's been none of that at all. I've said this before about other stories, but being cryptic is not an acceptable substitute for an actual plot. There's probably a decent payoff if you're willing to read the whole thing to get to it, but it's too much of an investment for me.


Yeah, i can see how its possible to suffer from character overload if you read though the story normally.
It can be easy to forget whom is whom when each chapter jumps to a different story in the same world.

Likely its not a bad idea to do as Gez suggest, and read each story seperatly. 
Burks are likely not a bad place to start. Its not like the initial plot is to hard to figure out. 
We have Burk who wants to become a Hero, and punch Villains. 
We have Pablo who wants to fix the issue of Liveria's trade routes being robbed.
And we have the Aristocrat who wants to become a hero for slightly less altruistisk reasons.

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## Kantaki

Yeah, so far the three story lines can be read seperatly.
There's some connection, but that's mostly in the background. (Heroland News in Tobi's story, the investigator guy showing up in Burk's, Magilante gets mentioned a few times I think...)
I think there's even a navigation bar to read only a specific story.

Edit: Also, Mini-Cha is friggin cute.
I don't trust them one bit.
That Nightshade Hero guy's suspicious too.
Probably a vampire or involved in the conspiracy.

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## -D-

> Hero Oh Hero is great, yeah.
> Though I prefer Noah's Arc.
> The adventure in the cow's head was hilarious.
> And his mirror-girlfriend is pretty amusing too.


Me too. I really enjoy the whole introduction to Magic world. Second to that is Tobi, with her not fitting in the world shtick, and her robot mannequin body guard. It's quite possible that his identity is the 3rd most wanted man on the world. Also as a Patreon, the side stories are interesting, but not crucial. 

Burk story is Ok, but I like it the least.

BTW Think Noah is Asexual. His manual being female, is probably because he is closer to his mother than anything girl related.




> Has it finally stopped restarting over and over again?
> 
> I kept reading it, but the author constantly seemed to be stopping and restarting it from the beginning without knowing where its going, and I just dropped off from it because of that.


I don't think it restarted more than once? I could be wrong. There was A Path to Greater Good (APTGG).

That said, the restarted part was in my opinion much more enjoyable. Author went over new story dropping much of what I'd consider extranoues elements. Example Look at Burk meets Pablo panel in APTGG, there was a whole mini subplot about Burk meeting Gang Rule Town boss and making some mediocre dialoge. Instead in HOH, you just see Burk smashing a window and pinning the boss to the ground.

So honestly, I think we could use a few more restarts  :Small Tongue:  or at least a more reductionist eye.

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## Kantaki

> BTW Think Noah is Asexual. His manual being female, is probably because he is closer to his mother than anything girl related.


Yeah, probably.
I mostly call her Noah's girlfriend because it amuses me. :Small Tongue: 

Also, I'm still not convinced Ciel _is_ originally part of Noah's power.
Part of it is her design, but at times she comes off as too... independent/free willed* and manipulative.
I'm not actually sure she has Noah's best interest in mind.

Mind you, I'm not saying she's malevolent, but she might be in this for her own entertainment.
Wether Ciel's hijacking Noah's magic, she got stuck to it somehow or she really was created as a UI- she wants something out of this interaction.
And if it is amusement. :Small Big Grin: 

Tl;Dr: I think there's more to Ciel than Noah's magic.

*For allegedly being a glorified user interface.

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## lord_khaine

I do think all the stories are awesome in their own way.
Its kinda impressive that the author managed to ensure that im disapointed when the story switches, no matter whom im following.
Even when its Tobi, whom i myself think has the weakest story.

Noah meanwhile is hilariously apathetic, and a great contrast to Burke.
But he works great because of is supporting cast. 
I dont think Ciel is more than the physical manifestation of his magic though.

As for the Nightshade Hero, then i do think he is legit. 
I dont there were a need for going though the whole deal of asking Mini-Chan for files on Burk, if he was actually involed in anything shady. 
He can easily be what he appears to be. An actual hero with a high degree of curiosity and perception. 
I mean Burk does stand out like a sore thumb for anyone with ½ a brain.

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## Gez

> Yeah, probably.
> I mostly call her Noah's girlfriend because it amuses me.
> 
> Also, I'm still not convinced Ciel _is_ originally part of Noah's power.
> Part of it is her design, but at times she comes off as too... independent/free willed* and manipulative.


I think Ciel is kind off the _mirror_ of Noah. He's an introverted and apathetic boy; she's comparatively extroverted and dynamic. Noah is extremely bad at reading people, empathizing with them, and guessing how they'd react, leading him to frequently insult and antagonize others unwittingly; Ciel is hyperaware and when she does tease Noah (the only person with which she can interact), it's fully deliberate, with complete and accurate understanding of how Noah will respond. Basically, Ciel is everything Noah is not; or at least not _enough_.

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## -D-

Yeah, for all the ussues with HoH pacing, it's hard to fault it with its tri-weekly issues. Not to mention current daily issues are great.

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## Kornaki

The sky stroke hero looks an awful lot like Burke, no?  The name even refers to how he entered the comic...

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## -D-

> The sky stroke hero looks an awful lot like Burke, no?  The name even refers to how he entered the comic...


I doubt it. Most likely he is a foil for Burk.

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## Kantaki

> I doubt it. Most likely he is a foil for Burk.


Maybe he's the Nale to Burk's Elan?
Nah. Krub is a stupid name. :Small Tongue: 

Also, I don't understand why Pablo is against Burk's plan.
It's _genius_.
Absolutely unfailable. :Small Big Grin:

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## lord_khaine

It is kinda dumb. 
Burk is about as subtle as a brick sandwitch. 
But thats of course why he hangs out with Pablo.

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## Kantaki

♪Someone has a crush...♪
Also, that plan is as bad as Burk's.

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## lord_khaine

Well.. the plan itself is as such good enough  :Small Big Grin: 
The problem is that Piper actually got a massive crush on the "Nightshade Stud".. 
Poor Pablo. He is the only proffesional guy with ½ a brain there. 
On the other hand he did get enough firepower to handle most issues when, and not if, things get violent.

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## -D-

> It is kinda dumb. 
> Burk is about as subtle as a brick sandwitch. 
> But thats of course why he hangs out with Pablo.


On surface level yes. But in a story, starting a fight is a great way to move the plot forward  :Small Tongue:

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## Kantaki

> Well.. the plan itself is as such good enough 
> The problem is that Piper actually got a massive crush on the "Nightshade Stud".. 
> Poor Pablo. He is the only proffesional guy with ½ a brain there. 
> On the other hand he did get enough firepower to handle most issues when, and not if, things get violent.


Well, if he had better companions violence might be more of an if. :Small Amused: 

Also, Tobi time!
Er, Ms. Paladin? That's a terrible sales pitch.
Usually being wanted _alive_ is a good thing, not a getting thrown into the lightless, bottomless maw of the abyss is the least of your worries" thing.

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## lord_khaine

Well.. its why i love the Paladin.
She is all tough love and brutal honesty :P

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## Kantaki

Heh. Three is a great guy. :Small Big Grin: 

Either that or he stays with Tobi because she is unlikely to realize his nefarious plans before it is too late. :Small Amused:

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## Forum Explorer

I love Tobi and Three. I especially love how Tobi actually asked Three his opinion on things.

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## lord_khaine

I think the author directly revealed that 3 is the last doll made by the founder of the Global order.
And some rather clever people spotted that its pretty likely he is the same as Tobi's grandpa.

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## Kantaki

> I think the author directly revealed that 3 is the last doll made by the founder of the Global order.
> And some rather clever people spotted that its pretty likely he is the same as Tobi's grandpa.


That would explain why he sticks with her.
He recognized her.

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## Kornaki

So the door can only be opened by you, or anyone willing to cut your hand off your dead body.  I don't know if I would feel THAT much safer with a bunch of loot in my room.

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## lord_khaine

> That would explain why he sticks with her.
> He recognized her.


We even get a subtle little hint here from the man himself
http://www.neorice.com/hoh_tobi_335#comments
And i quote "The dolls are OBLIGATORY"

But yeah, it suddenly does explain why 3, our of all people, decides to suddenly follow Tobi around and protect her.

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## Kantaki

> So the door can only be opened by you, or anyone willing to cut your hand off your dead body.  I don't know if I would feel THAT much safer with a bunch of loot in my room.


My, how paranoid.
Expecting others to kill you for your loot.
Hides saw behind back and whistles innocently... :Small Tongue:

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## -D-

Meh, I'm kinda cold fish on this whole "Escape the Room filled with Murderhobos" thing. Too many rules, too much exposition. Get to the stabbing  :Small Big Grin:

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## Kantaki

> Meh, I'm kinda cold fish on this whole "Escape the Room filled with Murderhobos" thing. Too many rules, too much exposition. Get to the stabbing


It would seem Levin agrees.
And volunteers to be the stabbee. :Small Amused: 

Seriously, this guy is so bad I would probably kill him even if my secret win condition was keeping him alive.

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## Gez

Levin's secret rule is probably that he's only allowed to win if all the other remaining contestants hate him and want him dead.

That's the only rational explanation I can come up with for his behavior.

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## -D-

> That's the only rational explanation I can come up with for his behavior.


He's a massive douche, even by Lorg standards. I propose to measure all further douchebaggery in mili-Levins.

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## lord_khaine

He is such a massive scumbag that he cant even understand he is a massive scumbag.
Well to be fair, it seems Lorg standards are still pretty horrible. 

Or well, we have 2 horrible Lorg people (Levin, Beast Lady).
And three who so far seems.. normal.. (Cop, Gang member A, Gang member B).
As well as one unreadable nutjob, who are likely awful (Infinity).

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## Forum Explorer

> He is such a massive scumbag that he cant even understand he is a massive scumbag.
> Well to be fair, it seems Lorg standards are still pretty horrible. 
> 
> Or well, we have 2 horrible Lorg people (Levin, Beast Lady).
> And three who so far seems.. normal.. (Cop, Gang member A, Gang member B).
> As well as one unreadable nutjob, who are likely awful (Infinity).


I don't feel like Levin and Fox should be compared on the same level. Don't get me wrong, Fox is selfish and tried to kill Tobi the instant she seemed like a threat, but Levin is even worse, by trying to kill them the first chance he got in order to secure his own advantage. 


Also did anyone else catch the joke with Tobi's name? She's Tobi B. King. To Be King, and she's the heir to the current king.  :Small Smile:

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## Gez

> I don't feel like Levin and Fox should be compared on the same level. Don't get me wrong, Fox is selfish and tried to kill Tobi the instant she seemed like a threat, but Levin is even worse, by trying to kill them the first chance he got in order to secure his own advantage.


Yeah, Levin triggered the trap to block the "let's all walk away" exit so as to kill the other two, and flee in the escape pod. Then Fox thought she couldn't run as fast as Tobi, so if she wanted to have a chance of tagging along Levin, she had to stop Tobi. Of course it was a bad plan since Levin wasn't going to wait for her, but it's panicked selfishness instead of a cold-blooded selfishness.

Jerk levels in milli-Levins

1 mL: the dismantler. Probably the most decent person Tobi encountered outside of Rauel (not counting Three, of course), only tried to get a day of manual labor out of here to pay for the trip.10 mL: the cop. He seems okay so far. Still, you can't ever fully trust a cop, and we don't know his motive for entering this thing, so it's a provisional score, that may soar depending on future revelations.100 mL: Eugene. As far as executive from a corporate crime syndicate go, Eugene is really a softy. Sure, he sent Tobi and Three to a death run TV show, but then after she actually survived he went on to genuinely help her. So okay it was motivated by the desire to hamper the Global Order, but it it was all, he wouldn't have given her his stylish red vest. (That she's still wearing.) Also he was actually answering her questions honestly.1000 mL: Levin, obviously.

Trying to find other people to calibrate the scale. Fox would probably be in the 200 to 400 range. Jay-Jay said she never killed anyone, so she's probably below 100. Still pushed drugs and committed arson. Paladin would be in the 100 to 200 range, she's arrogant and dismissive and she doesn't hesitate to kill to prove a point, as one of Infinite's lieutenants found out. It seems her desire to avoid deaths is more about "keeping collateral damage low" than personal morality. Biker guy I would put with Fox. The Global Order snoop and the skull woman are ciphers but I don't think they can be trusted. Smile guy is probably not out to screw the others directly, but to incite them to screw each others. Infinite-san probably got one of the highest scores, in the 600-to-900 range, as a gang leader and megalomaniacal magic user, but he does have a soft side, so he's not as bad as Levin. Bindy doesn't have a score, as Infinite-san did not give her permission to have one.

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## lord_khaine

Hmm.. really disagree with those scorings.
You cant rate people based on their jobs, and you should fully trust a cop (as long as you live in a civilized democracy).
Also disagree about Eugene. Who more or less work at sending desperate people to their death. He rates closer to 1k.

And certainly disagree about the Paladin, you cant rate people based on liking or disliking them, that ruins the value of the score.
Yes the Paladin snapped the neck of a murderous thug who as i recall were waving a knife around her face. I see that as a plus.
She is indeed bossy, but likely thats in part because she is in a position of high authorithy. 
When put on the test she didnt hesitate for a second to vote on sparring a strangers life however.

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## Kantaki

Levin calls the rules promising"...
He does get that he can't kill whoever he acquires coins from, right?
And that with the way he acts giving people his coins won't be enough to keep them from shiving him.

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## lord_khaine

> Levin calls the rules promising"...
> He does get that he can't kill whoever he acquires coins from, right?
> And that with the way he acts giving people his coins won't be enough to keep them from shiving him.


I think your misunderstanding Levin.
He isnt about killing people, or even screwing them over for the lulz. 
The only thing he focus on, 100%, is advancing the cause of Levin. 
He would not care if every single participant walked out alive, as long he had all their money.

And i think he is to confident to believe someone else would be able to shiv him.

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## -D-

Damn. This comic is pretty ****ing great. And not a peep about it?

http://www.neorice.com/hoh_latest

We're getting daily updates and by God that really enhances the pace.

To be honest the wordiness is a bit too much, and it gets bogged down explaining, when it could just show.
But daily updates completely save the pacing.
And art is superb.

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## Kantaki

> Damn. This comic is pretty ****ing great. And not a peep about it?
> 
> http://www.neorice.com/hoh_latest
> 
> We're getting daily updates and by God that really enhances the pace.
> 
> To be honest the wordiness is a bit too much, and it gets bogged down explaining, when it could just show.
> But daily updates completely save the pacing.
> And art is superb.


The thread has been kinda dead a while, yes.
Also Noah is my personal hero.
I can really identify myself with him. :Small Big Grin:

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## -D-

> The thread has been kinda dead a while, yes.
> Also Noah is my personal hero.
> I can really identify myself with him.


Not so much personal hero as a spirit animal  :Small Big Grin: 

His story is also kinda the best IMO. You get a tutorial on how magic works and his story is basically Harry Potter meets Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy (governments, spy, controversies).

In lieu of latest episodes, is Veda trying to kill Mallhart or recruit him? On one hand, he might be a useful teacher otoh, he might be a threat to her...

I like Burk and Tobi too. Tobi a bit more. But she's in Fantasy Big Brother atm, and that story is kinda meh IMO.
Burk is just ridiculously OP, kinda makes that whole plotline less interesting to follow.

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## Ibrinar

It stopped sending me rss updates at 1669 so I kinda forgot about it. Considering I had sorted the feed under bugged (for a few feeds that liked giving me a bunch of their old stuff again periodically) maybe it has something to do with that. Guess I have some catching up to do.

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## Forum Explorer

> The thread has been kinda dead a while, yes.
> Also Noah is my personal hero.
> I can really identify myself with him.


Noah has the best story and is awesome. 




> I like Burk and Tobi too. Tobi a bit more. But she's in Fantasy Big Brother atm, and that story is kinda meh IMO.
> Burk is just ridiculously OP, kinda makes that whole plotline less interesting to follow.


I actually really like Tobi and her story, I just feel like her story is dragging on a little bit. Like her 'game' looks to have multiple rounds, and a chapter doesn't even cover a single round. So while I love each time it switches to her, I'm always disappointed by how little progress it makes.

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## lord_khaine

I think its a unique skill of the author, that he manages to make me go "awwww!" with every story cut  :Small Big Grin: 

But yeah. While Tobi's situation is unique. Then i dont know. It does not feel as meaningful as the other. 
As someone else said. She is caught in fantasy Big Brother.




> Burk is just ridiculously OP, kinda makes that whole plotline less interesting to follow.


And yeah. I tough so to for a long while. Even if his hilarious antics did amuse me. 
But the Pirate fight really changed my mind on that. Burk would have been killed had he not been saved by Pablo. 
And he was genuinely spooked by the Blue Ghoul (he likely knew what it was, unlike everyone else). 

That showed that while Burk is a big fish, then he isnt the biggest fish. 
And it made him a lot more interesting.

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## -D-

> I think its a unique skill of the author, that he manages to make me go "awwww!" with every story cut


Yeah. I think he has some good cliffhanger writing skills.

That said when I compared his previous work A Path To Greater Good and Hero, Oh Hero (the parts that are the same). 
HOH came on top. The Burk chapters are just better. Less talk, more action, and he tells the virtually same story.

I fear as HOH moves on, he'll forget to revise his comic and make them denser.




> But yeah. While Tobi's situation is unique. Then i dont know. It does not feel as meaningful as the other. 
> As someone else said. She is caught in fantasy Big Brother.


Tobi's story is basically an introduction to Global Order (GO) and the way things function without Magic or Heroes.

Noah - Magic intro, with connection to wider picture here and there.
Tobi - Intro to Ghouls, GO, and the Magillante.
Burk - Intro to how things function in Medieval settings, and with Heroes, etc.

Also yeah, I said that  :Small Big Grin:  (Fantasy Big Brother)




> But the Pirate fight really changed my mind on that. Burk would have been killed had he not been saved by Pablo. 
> And he was genuinely spooked by the Blue Ghoul (he likely knew what it was, unlike everyone else). 
> 
> That showed that while Burk is a big fish, then he isnt the biggest fish. 
> And it made him a lot more interesting.


Yup. But instead of throwing fights into fights where he ain't pretending to be left-handed, we get him single-handedly fighting high-rank Heroes.

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## lord_khaine

> Yeah. I think he has some good cliffhanger writing skills.
> 
> That said when I compared his previous work A Path To Greater Good and Hero, Oh Hero (the parts that are the same).
> HOH came on top. The Burk chapters are just better. Less talk, more action, and he tells the virtually same story.
> 
> I fear as HOH moves on, he'll forget to revise his comic and make them denser.


Hmm.. its not even always cliffhangers. I think its just as much, for me at least, that i get invested in the story.
Engaged. Like when you end up reading to 0100 in the night.




> Tobi's story is basically an introduction to Global Order (GO) and the way things function without Magic or Heroes.
> 
> Noah - Magic intro, with connection to wider picture here and there.
> Tobi - Intro to Ghouls, GO, and the Magillante.
> Burk - Intro to how things function in Medieval settings, and with Heroes, etc.


Hmm.. i think more the issue is. That all this mess is purely for a passport. 
Tobi has barely made any progress at all besides picking up her faceless friend. 
And we have of course seen a little bit more of that corner of the world. (that as such does have magic, we got 2 magic users in the game). 
As well as learned neat little details about Tobi's grandpa. None of it just really feels that relevant. 




> Yup. But instead of throwing fights into fights where he ain't pretending to be left-handed, we get him single-handedly fighting high-rank Heroes.


You.. mean Burk. Not fights there?
Because yeah. This isnt Burk's challenge. Burk did kinda luck out there. Or more like Goldman got extremely unlucky.
The Hero with one of the strongest anti-magic powers end fighting Burk. I also think Goldman's ranking were artificially inflated.
Because he could stick to fights he could win. And worked for a white star hero. At most he was a mid sized fish in a small pond.
I believe the big fish are Nightshade and Skystroke.

All the same. This isnt Burks chapter.. its the real heroes.. Paplo!
Paplo who have to babysit both Burk and Sabrina. People who at the time almost act like they intentionally want to sabotage the mission :D
While dealing with Guy's snark. And with an almost impossible mission. 

Yet he still pull though!

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## -D-

> Hmm.. its not even always cliffhangers. I think its just as much, for me at least, that i get invested in the story.
> Engaged. Like when you end up reading to 0100 in the night.


Yeah, that too. I got hooked crawling character archives. Lemme check this one detail. Five hours later  :Small Big Grin:  This wasn't what I wanted.




> Hmm.. i think more the issue is. That all this mess is purely for a passport. 
> Tobi has barely made any progress at all besides picking up her faceless friend.


True, I guess. Though even Noah made little progress. I'm wondering when will he use his powers more (I know that sounds evil to say to Noah). But. I want more Psychonauting.




> And we have of course seen a little bit more of that corner of the world. (that as such does have magic, we got 2 magic users in the game).


Tobi's grandpa details aside, we learned a lot about Magilante. It seems it gives out its hardware freely. You got Lorg, with GO, magic, and technology. You got Justopia with tech and no mages (until recently).





> You.. mean Burk. Not fights there?
> Because yeah. This isnt Burk's challenge. Burk did kinda luck out there. Or more like Goldman got extremely unlucky.
> The Hero with one of the strongest anti-magic powers end fighting Burk. I also think Goldman's ranking were artificially inflated.


I don't know kinda. Or just make him in a position where his match-up is difficult enough that he wants to avoid. Not fight head-on. Like I dunno, some mage he's a bad match-up against.

True about Goldman I did overlook that he was rank jostling. Although I thought that was his power.




> All the same. This isnt Burks chapter.. its the real heroes.. Paplo!
> Paplo who have to babysit both Burk and Sabrina. People who at the time almost act like they intentionally want to sabotage the mission :D
> While dealing with Guy's snark. And with an almost impossible mission.


But. It is. It says Burk on the tin  :Small Big Grin:  
Yeah, Pablo is the glue holding it all together. 

I can't blame Sabrina, she's lusting after a bishonen protagonist. That's almost any girl :P

Burk on the other hand is unique. He's basically the Dumb Muscle that makes any other Dumb Muscle look like Einstein.
Guy is just a cool detective, he has to be snarky.

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## Gez

> Burk on the other hand is unique. He's basically the Dumb Muscle that makes any other Dumb Muscle look like Einstein.


We've been getting hints for a while that it's an act and he's not actually that dumb.

Most recently (and blatantly) here: http://neorice.com/hoh_burk_1695

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## lord_khaine

> True, I guess. Though even Noah made little progress. I'm wondering when will he use his powers more (I know that sounds evil to say to Noah). But. I want more Psychonauting.


Hmm.. if you measure Noah in another way besides "use his power" then a lot of progress has actually taken place.
He discovered his magic, got discovered, got send to magic school, learned about magic, got send on a mission, got caught,
got rescued, helped catch Malhards Kids, got dragged though an assult on a military base, and eventually saw Veda put a scheme in motion that involves Malhard.

That is a lot of important events. Even if Noah spend a lot of time on the floor.




> Tobi's grandpa details aside, we learned a lot about Magilante. It seems it gives out its hardware freely. You got Lorg, with GO, magic, and technology. You got Justopia with tech and no mages (until recently).


Well. I dont think we can call it a lot? we still only know Magilante exports technology. Mostly non-military. 
Actually likely strictly non-military. Justopia's tech seem limited to mostly a few basic civilian infrastructure things. Radio and trains.




> I don't know kinda. Or just make him in a position where his match-up is difficult enough that he wants to avoid. Not fight head-on. Like I dunno, some mage he's a bad match-up against.
> 
> True about Goldman I did overlook that he was rank jostling. Although I thought that was his power.


Well Goldman is a complex case? On one hand he has a ability to perfectly estimate odds of something. 
Meaning he can run a rather impressive win streak. And to argument that he has a couple powers that counters certain other types of opponents.
Like his spirit bullet. And Golden shield thingy. So for anyone not Burk he is a much bigger deal. 




> Burk on the other hand is unique. He's basically the Dumb Muscle that makes any other Dumb Muscle look like Einstein.
> Guy is just a cool detective, he has to be snarky.





> We've been getting hints for a while that it's an act and he's not actually that dumb.


Hint my shiny crystal ass  :Small Big Grin: 

Burk straight up had to break character during the Aria fight. When the blue Ghoul appeared.
If you read the chapter again, starting at page 852. The try and pay attention to just how much Burk's behavior changes. 
Especially in 898. Where Burk Predicts What trick Aria will pull.

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## -D-

> Hmm.. if you measure Noah in another way besides "use his power" then a lot of progress has actually taken place.
> He discovered his magic, got discovered, got send to magic school, learned about magic, got send on a mission, got caught


I dunno as a character he didn't change much from his scaredy-cat ways. His physical prowess notwithstanding. 





> Well. I dont think we can call it a lot? we still only know Magilante exports technology. Mostly non-military. 
> Actually likely strictly non-military. Justopia's tech seem limited to mostly a few basic civilian infrastructure things. Radio and trains.


http://www.neorice.com/hoh/1205_Noah.png

That one Emperor train definitely seemed militarily oriented. Not to mention the guns and shotguns, which are given out in Lorg. Otherwise people in betrayal game wouldn't know what it is.





> Hint my shiny crystal ass 
> 
> Burk straight up had to break character during the Aria fight. When the blue Ghoul appeared.
> If you read the chapter again, starting at page 852. The try and pay attention to just how much Burk's behavior changes. 
> Especially in 898. Where Burk Predicts What trick Aria will pull.


I understood that Bender reference  :Small Big Grin: 

Yeah, with Burk I'm not sure how much is that his insane instincts and how much is just DUMB luck. I'm starting to think Burk maxed STR and LUCK at expense of everything else.

Remember when he decided to interrogate the cats. And it turned out one cat was actually a spy or something.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I dunno as a character he didn't change much from his scaredy-cat ways. His physical prowess notwithstanding.


Oh Noah barely changed at all. And his physical prowess is still close to 0.
But his story progressed. A lot of very significant things have taken place there.




> http://www.neorice.com/hoh/1205_Noah.png
> 
> That one Emperor train definitely seemed militarily oriented. Not to mention the guns and shotguns, which are given out in Lorg. Otherwise people in betrayal game wouldn't know what it is.


Well. Its not. Its just a huge train they smacked armor plating on. But i would dare the claim a train is one of the least military vehicles you can find.

And thats in Lorg. Its a completely different place. 
Where by the way. We dont have any guarantee its not produced locally. I mean. When first you have a gun. Then its really, really easy to make a second if your a scientist.
Like they clearly have a lot off in Lorg/GO.




> Yeah, with Burk I'm not sure how much is that his insane instincts and how much is just DUMB luck. I'm starting to think Burk maxed STR and LUCK at expense of everything else.
> 
> Remember when he decided to interrogate the cats. And it turned out one cat was actually a spy or something.


That was actually the thing i tried to indicate. That Burk only act like an idiot.
When the situation gets sufficiently dangerous. Then he starts acting smart.

Try and take a careful look at Burks comment in 887. On the sudden red glow.
Burk "The side effect of a previously unnoticed magic power. The is only one fact of interest so far."
Pablo "You sound oddly serious, what fact?"
Burk "only one person here who does not look Surprised"

That dialog read as if it came from an entirely different person then our favorite serial streaker.
But it shows a rather high degree of perception and logic. And that leads to the conclusion Burk is a -LOT- smarter than he pretends to be.

----------


## -D-

> Oh Noah barely changed at all. And his physical prowess is still close to 0.
> But his story progressed. A lot of very significant things have taken place there.


Sure but I do want to see Noah grow. In APTGG he seemed less scaredy-cat and even called Lina out on some of her bull****.





> Well. Its not. Its just a huge train they smacked armor plating on. But i would dare the claim a train is one of the least military vehicles you can find.


Well, we didn't seem to see it in action. I suspect it has guns and whatever needed.





> Where by the way. We dont have any guarantee its not produced locally. I mean. When first you have a gun. Then it's really, really easy to make a second if you're a scientist.


Well according to this:
http://www.neorice.com/hoh_tobi_843

Guns are Magilante tech. There isn't a single person that can repair them, let alone make them. It probably implies Magilante disappears the people that could repair it.

Also most science in HOH is magic based. E.g. GO, with their pod soldiers and other nations using magic people.





> That was actually the thing i tried to indicate. That Burk only act like an idiot.
> When the situation gets sufficiently dangerous. Then he starts acting smart.
> 
> That dialog read as if it came from an entirely different person then our favorite serial streaker.
> But it shows a rather high degree of perception and logic. And that leads to the conclusion Burk is a -LOT- smarter than he pretends to be.


Right. But why the act, though? Other than the Rule of Cool, and some variation of "I'm not left-handed" trope.

Also, some things can't be explained by smarts either. 
Like interrogating cats seem wtf. No intelligent person would do that unless he knew specifically there is a hidden agent among the cats.

I don't deny Burk is smart, he looks like the Dumbest Muscle alive. Who knows. Maybe that's his shtick. He has a penalty of Low Int most of the time,
to get huge boost to STR and LUCK.

-------------

Oh carp, I forgot. Tobi was updated. Lord Infinite managed to climb the Mili-Levin scale of douchebaggery. And stands at 0.6 Levin (he went from 100 mLev to 600 mLev). Congrats Lord Infinite. This was the fastest increase in Levins the comics had seen.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Sure but I do want to see Noah grow. In APTGG he seemed less scaredy-cat and even called Lina out on some of her bull****.


It seem less that he is scared. And more that he is extremely apathetic. 
And it would be nice to see a bit of growth.




> Well, we didn't seem to see it in action. I suspect it has guns and whatever needed.


We dont have any evidence of that. It would i think be the first guns we have seen the empire posses. 
Also. it is a train. Guns are kinda useless on it. As it can only go where there are rails.




> Well according to this:
> http://www.neorice.com/hoh_tobi_843
> 
> Guns are Magilante tech. There isn't a single person that can repair them, let alone make them. It probably implies Magilante disappears the people that could repair it.
> 
> Also most science in HOH is magic based. E.g. GO, with their pod soldiers and other nations using magic people.


Well. It should be pointed out that the source who says guns are magilente tech, that cant be repaired, is a trash collecter who were proven wrong next comic.
The magic science we have seen are orders of a magnitude more complex than a gun. If places like Lorg, GO or the place Pablo is from isnt making them.
Then it almost have to be because its so much easier to get them from the living city. I mean. Everyone in Tobi's game recognises guns. They are clearly rather common.




> Right. But why the act, though? Other than the Rule of Cool, and some variation of "I'm not left-handed" trope.
> 
> Also, some things can't be explained by smarts either.
> Like interrogating cats seem wtf. No intelligent person would do that unless he knew specifically there is a hidden agent among the cats.
> 
> I don't deny Burk is smart, he looks like the Dumbest Muscle alive. Who knows. Maybe that's his shtick. He has a penalty of Low Int most of the time,
> to get huge boost to STR and LUCK.


Its impossible to say why the act. Burk is still an enigma. But when a person that so far acted like a fool display intelligence in a life or death situation.
Then i take it as solid evidence it was just that. An act. Or perhaps the result of Burk simply not bothering to think most of the time.
Most of the time he does not need to. Most of the time he is a huge fish in a tiny pond. So nothing is much of a threat.

Else. The bit about interrogating cats can be explained by smarts easily. 
The smart person could recognise playing with cats is a -lot- more fun than Pablo's talky stuff. Where your not allowed to punch people.
Or that its what your suposed to do, if you want to keep up your "im a harmless moron" act. 

Though int does not work that way unless Burk has a Pandemonium power that allows him to exchange int for power.
Currently i think it is most likely he just fool around for the lulz.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Lord Infinite is many things.
Evil, a jerk, a crime lord, probably untrustworthy, likely up to no good...
He's also right. If the team doesn't work with him, why work with them?
I mean sure, there was a pretty good chance he'd've pulled this stunt anyway, but it would've been a better chance than doing nothing.

----------


## -D-

> It seem less that he is scared. And more that he is extremely apathetic.


(A)pathetic  :Small Tongue:  , avoidant, chicken. He avoids action at all costs, which is interesting for a protagonist. From what I understand his Pandemonium is some kind of wishing power, which is probably the strongest possible power.




> Also. it is a train. Guns are kinda useless on it. As it can only go where there are rails.


If Metal Slug taught me anything  :Small Big Grin:  , is that if there is a giant plated train, it must have guns or at least gun nests.




> We dont have any evidence of that. It would i think be the first guns we have seen the empire posses.


Wait. What about http://www.neorice.com/hoh_noah_268

We saw at least one gun wielded by one of the heads of the navy IIRC. Maybe only the navy is allowed to carry guns? 
Perhaps Emperor & President agreed to not have guns among the populace. Or maybe Magilante didn't give enough guns. 




> Well. It should be pointed out that the source who says guns are magilente tech, that cant be repaired, is a trash collecter who were proven wrong next comic.


Missing the context. Tobi is alien to their world. He's still right. Her having the knowledge to repair tech is an abberation.




> The magic science we have seen are orders of a magnitude more complex than a gun. If places like Lorg, GO or the place Pablo is from isnt making them.
> Then it almost have to be because its so much easier to get them from the living city. I mean. Everyone in Tobi's game recognises guns. They are clearly rather common.


Well. Magic science probably has more bang for the buck than regular science. I mean. It's ****in' magic. You could do anything. 

Compare magic to our real world:
- They have people that turn cities into sinkholes.
- They have people that can teleport entire navies
- People with Hyper regeneration that can turn tanks like Pirate of the Storm into mincemeat
- Regenerating masses of bones and sinew that can capture or eliminate people (even magic users) with little resistance
- Converting organic matter into gold
- etc.




> Though int does not work that way unless Burk has a Pandemonium power that allows him to exchange int for power.
> Currently i think it is most likely he just fool around for the lulz.


I think it's stated Burk doesn't use magic. 
Burk is like that hyper-muscled guy from Rex vs Reynalde fight that took absolutely brutal damage.

Maybe he has some gamified trait-like in FO, that allows you to have an effect, for a penalty.

I think the world is very game-like, so that kind of limit makes sense.




> New comic
> 
> Lord Infinite is many things.
> Evil, a jerk, a crime lord, probably untrustworthy, likely up to no good...
> He's also right. If the team doesn't work with him, why work with them?
> I mean sure, there was a pretty good chance he'd've pulled this stunt anyway, but it would've been a better chance than doing nothing.


Absolutely. 
They antagonized him throughout and I'm guessing he's going to use his powers to put his team in the hot seat.

I must admit, I love the double-page Tobi panel.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> New comic
> 
> Lord Infinite is many things.
> Evil, a jerk, a crime lord, probably untrustworthy, likely up to no good...
> He's also right. If the team doesn't work with him, why work with them?
> I mean sure, there was a pretty good chance he'd've pulled this stunt anyway, but it would've been a better chance than doing nothing.


Yup. I mean, if they had worked with him, maybe he'd still screw them over, but he'd likely give them a few Oranges to soften the blow. 

But all told, they've been treating him like an enemy so why not act like an enemy? Can't burn a bridge if it is already on fire. 

Still I think Tobi needs to break out of her competitive mindset and remember what her actual goals are. She doesn't need extra money or anything like that. She just needs to survive, to get her passport, so she can leave Lorg. Her only concern should be keeping herself and her friends alive. Sure, save all she can because she is a good person. But why should she care if Infinite wins? In fact, him getting a commanding lead is a good thing. Yeah, he's likely to try and pick someone to go on trial, maybe the paladin, maybe someone else. But he wants Tobi alive, so I doubt he'll risk putting her on trial. And being put on trial is not a guaranteed death sentence. And if he's in the lead from now on? Than that will be the last trial in the game. Which is a good thing from Tobi's standard.

----------


## -D-

New comic

I apologize for measuring Lord Infinite in mili Levins. All measurements of Lord Infinite will now be done with Giga Chad.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## lord_khaine

> From what I understand his Pandemonium is some kind of wishing power, which is probably the strongest possible power.


His power is a complete mystery. 
In part due to his reluctance to use or experiment with it.
Well at the same time. It is likely wise to keep it a secret.




> Wait. What about http://www.neorice.com/hoh_noah_268
> 
> We saw at least one gun wielded by one of the heads of the navy IIRC. Maybe only the navy is allowed to carry guns?
> Perhaps Emperor & President agreed to not have guns among the populace. Or maybe Magilante didn't give enough guns.


Oh fair point. The Admiral had a gun. It seemed like the only one in the building though. 
Even professor Null had to settle for a crossbow. Seems likely they are extremely rare at the very least. 
It can even easily be that rifle was the personal weapon of said admiral. 




> Missing the context. Tobi is alien to their world. He's still right. Her having the knowledge to repair tech is an abberation.


No its not missing the contex. It directly proves said narrator were unreliable. And they life in a world full of abberations.
Another prime case is the location the game takes place in. That spot is to advanced. You cant have something like that without at least passing information on how to repair or modify tech. 
Not when Magilent produces things blindly. Tobi's ability is still priceless. Its just not unique.




> I think it's stated Burk doesn't use magic.
> Burk is like that hyper-muscled guy from Rex vs Reynalde fight that took absolutely brutal damage.
> 
> Maybe he has some gamified trait-like in FO, that allows you to have an effect, for a penalty.
> 
> I think the world is very game-like, so that kind of limit makes sense.


Oh the muscle guy there absolutely uses magic. And a lot of it.

But i dont think the world is meant to be gammified at all. Thats Tobi's world.
So i do think thats skewing your perception of the story in weird directions ?

----------


## Gez

I'm starting to actually like the Bluebeard of Happiness. He's having a lot of fun, and he's right -- better him than Levin.

----------


## -D-

> No its not missing the contex. It directly proves said narrator were unreliable.


Tobi's appearance is a so-called Black swan event (where you generalize based on existing data set, not predicting an unforeseen possibility). If she wasn't in Lorg, the old man would have been right as far as we are shown.

Name one person (Tobi and her people excluded) that showed some kind of ability to repair and/or analyze tech?




> That spot is to advanced. You cant have something like that without at least passing information on how to repair or modify tech.


I think the implication here is Magilante is working with ghouls/researchers. I wouldn't be surprised that the entire thing installed itself, or is part of Magilante. 




> Oh the muscle guy there absolutely uses magic. And a lot of it.


When a magic-user uses magic, there is usually a glow or an effect (yes even Blue Ghoul had a glow). Aude and Felix even comment on it.

See this: http://www.neorice.com/hoh_noah_624

No glow. No magic. That doesn't mean magic wasn't cast on him to share excess damage in case one contestant went overboard. Which did happen.




> But i dont think the world is meant to be gammified at all. Thats Tobi's world.
> So i do think thats skewing your perception of the story in weird directions ?


Fair point, I might be imagining things, but I don't get why sabotage yourself like that? 




> I'm starting to actually like the Bluebeard of Happiness. He's having a lot of fun, and he's right -- better him than Levin.


Yeah, Lord Infinite is Pogchamp.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Tobi's appearance is a so-called Black swan event (where you generalize based on existing data set, not predicting an unforeseen possibility). If she wasn't in Lorg, the old man would have been right as far as we are shown.
> 
> Name one person (Tobi and her people excluded) that showed some kind of ability to repair and/or analyze tech?


I would more say Tobi is proof of an unreliable narrator. That what the old man says is only true from the common perspective. 

But i can do better than name a person. I can name organisations.
Who have shown ability to intergrate technology. The red suit guys have functional elevators. 
As well as custom death traps. Thats something that require a lot of maintenance. And require you understand it before you install it.

And whoever runs the game, seem to directly have installed technology. Extremely advanced technology at that.
I do think your putting to much weight on what an old hermit said in comic. And not enough on things we have observed, that he would not have seen.
Tobi's ability to understand tech at a glance is likely unique. But the ability to repair tech cant be unique. Just excedingly rare.




> I think the implication here is Magilante is working with ghouls/researchers. I wouldn't be surprised that the entire thing installed itself, or is part of Magilante.


Well. We have just also been informed that Magilante isnt sentient in a conventional manner.
That it just randomly spits out tech items. So it seems unlikely it can work with someone? 
I mean its not impossible. The whole operation is excedingly expensive.




> When a magic-user uses magic, there is usually a glow or an effect (yes even Blue Ghoul had a glow). Aude and Felix even comment on it.
> 
> See this: http://www.neorice.com/hoh_noah_624
> 
> No glow. No magic. That doesn't mean magic wasn't cast on him to share excess damage in case one contestant went overboard. Which did happen.


Well. That usually there carry a ton of exceptions. We have countless examples of people doing magic without there being a glow.
Just for example. http://www.neorice.com/hoh_noah_618 Kimberly dont produce a glow when he uses his ability. 
So glow is certainly a sign of magic. But no glow isnt a sign of no magic. I mean im sure we can find more examples.




> Fair point, I might be imagining things, but I don't get why sabotage yourself like that?


Hmm.. well. We cant know for certain. Perhaps he wants to get underestimated?
Or maybe its for the fun of it? Look at how many dumb things real world people do in their free time.
Or how many things people intentionally makes harder for themselves because they like the challenge.
Burk is so powerful that 95% of the actual challenges he faces are easy mode. No wonder he gets bored.

----------


## -D-

> Who has shown ability to integrate technology. The red suit guys have functional elevators.


I asked Neorice. 




> Q: How does Magilante install things like elevators?
> Or other tech that needs to be tightly integrated with buildings?
> 
> A: Master Neoriceisgood  04/21/2021
> There actually is an answer, just not mentioned in-comic yet. Magilante obviously has some kind of builder available.


He said, that Magilante deploys builders. I assume some kind of 3D printer for buildings. I don't think he refers to a human.





> Well. We have just also been informed that Magilante isnt sentient in a conventional manner.


It has enough intelligence to decide whom to export the tech too. And not export advanced military tech to naval powers.





> Just for example. http://www.neorice.com/hoh_noah_618 Kimberly dont produce a glow when he uses his ability.


Sure, but he's a confirmed pandemonium user. And his magic manifests differently.

From what we know to be a magic-user you have to:
A) Either know spirit magic to produce a glow (pandemonium or magic potential)
B) Use their free magic which usually glows

While it's possible that pandemonium user never uses too obvious magic, let's weigh the pros and cons of Burk being magic-user.

Pro:
1) He's abnormally strong

Con:
1) He denies it (he's honest to a fault)
2) In no fight, with either gold-laced Ariara or Goldman was he affected by magic disabling gold
3) Ariara comments on it:  http://www.neorice.com/hoh/921_Burk.png

Meta, it's more interesting if Burk isn't a magic-user. I don't think Ghouls are magic users either (even though they use some kind of Ghoul Ressurection magic).

----------


## lord_khaine

> He said, that Magilante deploys builders. I assume some kind of 3D printer for buildings. I don't think he refers to a human.


Well fair. So it is not directly a plot hole. It just revolves around things not yet revealed.




> It has enough intelligence to decide whom to export the tech too. And not export advanced military tech to naval powers.


Something that does conflict with earlier statements. It can be it just does not export military tech to naval powers at all.
But it seems clear we are missing a lot of information on Magilante. Just for a start what the heck the builders are.




> Sure, but he's a confirmed pandemonium user. And his magic manifests differently.
> 
> From what we know to be a magic-user you have to:
> A) Either know spirit magic to produce a glow (pandemonium or magic potential)
> B) Use their free magic which usually glows


Does not really matter how his magic manifests. We have one clear and proven exception to the magic=glow rule.
That already means a lack of glow cant be used as evidence to a lack of magic. 
Heck. We even from Garts training have more examples of people using magic without a glow. 
So its not even that Spirit magic always create a glow.




> While it's possible that pandemonium user never uses too obvious magic, let's weigh the pros and cons of Burk being magic-user.


I dont know where Burk enters into the picture. Im talking about this guy.
http://www.neorice.com/hoh_noah_624

----------


## -D-

> Something that does conflict with earlier statements. It can be it just does not export military tech to naval powers at all.
> But it seems clear we are missing a lot of information on Magilante.


Yeah, Noah mentioned it talking to Cherry. For people unaware what are we talking about
http://www.neorice.com/hoh_noah_1223




> Just for a start what the heck the builders are.


I imagine this, but more automated I guess:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69HrqNnrfh4




> Does not really matter how his magic manifests. We have one clear and proven exception to the magic=glow rule.
> That already means a lack of glow cant be used as evidence to a lack of magic. 
> 
> I dont know where Burk enters into the picture. Im talking about this guy.


Sure, but you also can't prove he isn't same boat as Burk. Why did you assume it's magic when there is no proof of it?

If someone makes death bubbles or makes a slime, that's obviously magic. If someone casually lifts a bolder and there is no visible magic, means he's probably doing it without it.

----------


## Forum Explorer

So I'm guessing Three tore off his own arm, which than moved around independently and stole a couple hundred fruit for himself.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## lord_khaine

> Yeah, Noah mentioned it talking to Cherry. For people unaware what are we talking about
> http://www.neorice.com/hoh_noah_1223


Actually reading that. Its just military technology thats easily deployed on ships thats not exported.




> Sure, but you also can't prove he isn't same boat as Burk. Why did you assume it's magic when there is no proof of it?
> 
> If someone makes death bubbles or makes a slime, that's obviously magic. If someone casually lifts a bolder and there is no visible magic, means he's probably doing it without it.


He is doing something obviously magic. I would say occams razor says its magic. And the burden off proof lies on showing its not magic. 
Well. Magic or he is a cyborg. But thats science fiction. And loops back to magic.

I mean. The evidence is kinda airtight. 
Magic is not always visible. That means there isnt evidence of it -not- being magic. 
Here is an example of a spirit user being active without visible effect.
http://www.neorice.com/hoh_noah_613

And he is doing something thats impossible on several levels. Thats evidence of it being magic.
Casually lifting something around 10 tons in one arm, means his muscles and bones are strong enough to be a mid-tier marvel hero.

As bonus evidence. Its most likely he is the source of the hearts.
http://www.neorice.com/hoh_noah_612
Since he took damage when they broke. Meaning there are already evidence of him using magic.




> So I'm guessing Three tore off his own arm, which than moved around independently and stole a couple hundred fruit for himself.


It is kinda shocking one of the biggest tinfoil hat theories proved true..

----------


## -D-

> He is doing something obviously magic.
> 
> He is doing something obviously magic. I would say occams razor says its magic.


Is it? 

Let's extend that logic. That guy didn't do anything that Burk couldn't do. By Occam's razor then Burk is not an anomaly but same as him. Burk therefore is magic user. And that's not correct. 




> And he is doing something thats impossible on several levels. Thats evidence of it being magic.
> 
> Casually lifting something around 10 tons in one arm, means his muscles and bones are strong enough to be a mid-tier marvel hero.


Like falling from the sky and not being harmed? Or using a log as an improv projectile and punching Pirate of the Storm like a ****ing truck?




> As bonus evidence. Its most likely he is the source of the hearts.


That's speculation. Lina arrived with many magic teachers any one of them could cast that magic. I'm not ruling it out, but it could just be a PE teacher for mages.




> So I'm guessing Three tore off his own arm, which than moved around independently and stole a couple hundred fruit for himself.


He really went on a limb there.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Kantaki

I really don't see what Smile's problem is.
The one armed bandit is a perfectly valid strategy for a game like this.
"Unsportsmanlike behaviour"... in a death game. :Small Confused: 
One that encourages backstabbing.

The issue is that Three ripped his own arm off, isn't it?
If he had at least poisoned a few opponents it probably would've been fine. :Small Amused: 

Honestly though, while I definitely laughed at the reveal, I'm kinda disappointed the answer to "Who could take down Three?" was "Three".

----------


## Forum Explorer

> I really don't see what Smile's problem is.
> The one armed bandit is a perfectly valid strategy for a game like this.
> "Unsportsmanlike behaviour"... in a death game.
> One that encourages backstabbing.
> 
> The issue is that Three ripped his own arm off, isn't it?
> If he had at least poisoned a few opponents it probably would've been fine.
> 
> Honestly though, while I definitely laughed at the reveal, I'm kinda disappointed the answer to "Who could take down Three?" was "Three".


Man I just caught on that the reason why he went unconscious was because he was focusing on the arm instead. I'm not disappointed at all in that answer though, everyone has been hyping him up as a nigh indestructible killing machine. I would be more disappointed if someone suddenly was able to significantly harm him without any warning. 

Also does anyone else find it significant that Levin was referred to by name, and not color?

----------


## -D-

> I really don't see what Smile's problem is.


It's implied that Smile foundation is run by ghouls.

Ghouls like death. Three and Tobi evaded rules used to either turn people against each other or to evade death.

Basically there isn't enough death and backstabbing for their tastes.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> It's implied that Smile foundation is run by ghouls.
> 
> Ghouls like death. Three and Tobi evaded rules used to either turn people against each other or to evade death.
> 
> Basically there isn't enough death and backstabbing for their tastes.


What makes you say that? The Ghouls we saw seem to be D&D murderhobos. I don't see how that implies they run the Smile foundation or that they want to see people backstabbing each other.

----------


## Gez

> What makes you say that? The Ghouls we saw seem to be D&D murderhobos.


More like MMORPG murderhobos. D&D characters who die do not respawn intact -- not without some effort from their party to use resurrection spells.

Also D&D characters do feel pain and do need to sleep and eat and drink, usually.

Though these ghouls also have the odd trait, according to the Paladin, that if you cut one of their limbs, it can still move and act. Kinda like Three...

----------


## -D-

> What makes you say that? The Ghouls we saw seem to be D&D murderhobos. I don't see how that implies they run the Smile foundation or that they want to see people backstabbing each other.


I don't think Shalia was lying. They aren't just muderhobos. They are immortal murderhobos. Killing is their way of killing time. They have nothing else to do. And once they die they respawn.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> More like MMORPG murderhobos. D&D characters who die do not respawn intact -- not without some effort from their party to use resurrection spells.
> 
> Also D&D characters do feel pain and do need to sleep and eat and drink, usually.
> 
> Though these ghouls also have the odd trait, according to the Paladin, that if you cut one of their limbs, it can still move and act. Kinda like Three...


I suppose so in that regard. Though I wonder if the 'respawn' is just rolling up a new character. Or perhaps the same character as it may be. Also multiclassing isn't usually something you can do in an MMORPG. And of course, neither is speaking. 

Though I'd argue about the 'feel pain' part. That's not a condition after all. Feeling pain is just roleplaying. Eating, and drinking often is as well. Sure you need to, but how often is that reduced to 'deduct one ration from your inventory?' 

Sleeping I'll grant you. Though there are ways around that too. 

It wouldn't surprise me if Three was an attempt to make an artificial Ghoul. 




> I don't think Shalia was lying. They aren't just muderhobos. They are immortal murderhobos. Killing is their way of killing time. They have nothing else to do. And once they die they respawn.


She wasn't lying, but that doesn't mean she was correct. Just because all the Global Order sees them do is kill doesn't mean that is all they do. I mean, we know that is false as they recruited Tobi on the Smile Foundations behalf. And they seem to know what Tobi was talking about when she mentioned a dungeon. And they have a goal of trying to get through the temple Tobi came out of. 

But I could definitely see them just killing any other encounter. If they don't care about whatever the GO was offering them, than why not kill them in order to get the XP? It's not like there would be any consequences for doing so. Particularly if the Ghouls had labeled the GO as the 'villains' for some reason.

----------


## -D-

> What makes you say that? The Ghouls we saw seem to be D&D murderhobos. I don't see how that implies they run the Smile foundation or that they want to see people backstabbing each other.





> I suppose so in that regard. Though I wonder if the 'respawn' is just rolling up a new character.


From the FAQ.




> 18. How do ghouls respawn? Are there some respawn points? Do they reappear where they were destroyed? How random is it?
> 
> Depends on the players level. Newbies tend to respawn in the new player zone, but more experienced players sometimes do respawn closer to their objective,





> Though I'd argue about the 'feel pain' part.


We seen Niles shrug off losing limbs, head, guts as minor inconvenience.
Niles is heavily implied to be a ghoul. 





> She wasn't lying, but that doesn't mean she was correct. Just because all the Global Order sees them do is kill doesn't mean that is all they do. I mean, we know that is false as they recruited Tobi on the Smile Foundations behalf. And they seem to know what Tobi was talking about when she mentioned a dungeon. And they have a goal of trying to get through the temple Tobi came out of. 
> 
> But I could definitely see them just killing any other encounter. If they don't care about whatever the GO was offering them, than why not kill them in order to get the XP? It's not like there would be any consequences for doing so. Particularly if the Ghouls had labeled the GO as the 'villains' for some reason.


While they don't ONLY kill, much like MMORPGs muderhobos, their quests are mostly tied to killing. Or causing deaths.

Would players in MMO care if a faction calls them evil?

Smile foundation is all about Death. Their experiment is super focused on death.
Also double checking Tobi Chapters never did Ghoul Adventuring party mention Rauel, they just said "we have the same quest", which is more for manipulating Tobi than a statement of purpose.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> From the FAQ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We seen Niles shrug off losing limbs, head, guts as minor inconvenience.
> Niles is heavily implied to be a ghoul. 
> 
> 
> ...


The only thing I see when I press the FAQ button is the schedule. Though the respawn zone comment does pretty firmly put them in MMO status


I think you misunderstood me. I meant that D&D characters don't feel pain as that isn't an actual condition. Any pain they feel is just roleplaying.


Sure, same with D&D characters for that matter. 

Other way around. If the MMO players think a faction is evil, than they can pretty much skip anything that faction says and just kill them instead. 

To be fair, so far it is all about Trust. Or rather, what does it take to push someone into betraying others. Strictly speaking, you haven't needed to kill anyone so far in order to make money or progress in the 'games'. You are rewarded for doing so, very blatantly at that, but you don't need to. So maybe trust isn't the best word. Morality maybe? Getting a good person to kill. Or perhaps comparing what ends up being more successful, being 'good' or 'evil'.

----------


## Gez

> Though I'd argue about the 'feel pain' part. That's not a condition after all. Feeling pain is just roleplaying.


It's heavily abstracted, but 1. Fortitude saving throws represent, among other things, the ability to shrug off pain; and 2. there are pain spells and powers like Power Word: Pain, Symbol of Pain and Inflict Pain.

----------


## -D-

> The only thing I see when I press the FAQ button is the schedule. Though the respawn zone comment does pretty firmly put them in MMO status


Here's the link. It's not FAQ, it's Q & A - http://www.neorice.com/main




> I think you misunderstood me. I meant that D&D characters don't feel pain as that isn't an actual condition. Any pain they feel is just roleplaying.


I've yet to see a Ghoul roleplay pain. For them it's less than that, it's just a stat change. Like losing 1 HP vs failing a check.




> If the MMO players think a faction is evil,


Evil? I've seen MMO players (since analogy is apt) go around spreading plagues, killing low power players and just being general **** heads for lulz. For them it's a game, for NPCs it's a battle to the death.

And now they made a special TV show where NPCs battle it out. I'm sure nothing bad will come from that.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> It's heavily abstracted, but 1. Fortitude saving throws represent, among other things, the ability to shrug off pain; and 2. there are pain spells and powers like Power Word: Pain, Symbol of Pain and Inflict Pain.


And HP can be represented as both the ability to take a hit and power through it, or the intrinsic ability to cause things to just barely miss or other plot armor abilities that you see in action movies. Roleplay either or. 

And none of those abilities actually cause a condition called pain. The condition is incapacitated. If you want that to be, can't move/can't speak, sure. If you want that to be repeatedly saying ow over again that works too. Or you could go full screaming and flailing. Whatever. Point is that 'pain' isn't actually defined in D&D rules and thus is whatever you want it to be. 





> Here's the link. It's not FAQ, it's Q & A - http://www.neorice.com/main
> 
> 
> I've yet to see a Ghoul roleplay pain. For them it's less than that, it's just a stat change. Like losing 1 HP vs failing a check.
> 
> 
> Evil? I've seen MMO players (since analogy is apt) go around spreading plagues, killing low power players and just being general **** heads for lulz. For them it's a game, for NPCs it's a battle to the death.
> 
> And now they made a special TV show where NPCs battle it out. I'm sure nothing bad will come from that.


Cool, thanks for the link.


That's my point. 


Fair enough, though I'd call that being a griefer. I wouldn't say we've seen Ghouls act like that yet. They do seem to be actually 'playing' the game, whatever game it might be. As far as we can tell, the only people they consider players would be other ghouls and very maybe Tobi, but I doubt they do. 

Also where are you getting that Ghouls made/run the Smile Foundation? You keep mentioning it as if it is a clearly stated fact, but I've never seen that suggested anywhere in the comic.

----------


## Gez

> Point is that 'pain' isn't actually defined in D&D rules and thus is whatever you want it to be.


https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Symbol_of_Pain



> This spell functions like symbol of death, except that each creature within the radius of a symbol of pain instead suffers wracking pains that impose a 4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks. These effects last for 1 hour after the creature moves farther than 60 feet from the symbol.


https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Inflict_Pain



> You telepathically stab the mind of your foe, causing horrible agony. The subject suffers wracking pain that imposes a 4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks. If the target makes its save, it takes only a 2 penalty.


https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Pipes_of_Pain



> As soon as the piping stops, all those affected are stricken by intense pain at even the slightest noise. Unless a character is in a totally silent area, she takes 1d4 points of damage per round for 2d4 rounds. During this time, damage from sonic attacks is doubled. Thereafter, the least noise causes an affected character to become shaken (except when she is in a totally silent area).

----------


## -D-

> Also where are you getting that Ghouls made/run the Smile Foundation? You keep mentioning it as if it is a clearly stated fact, but I've never seen that suggested anywhere in the comic.


The fact they are seen openly recruiting for it, the fact that smile looks and behaves like a ghoul.
Looks meaning the ghoulish smile, and bizzare behavior like extreme sadism.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> The fact they are seen openly recruiting for it, the fact that smile looks and behaves like a ghoul.
> Looks meaning the ghoulish smile, and bizzare behavior like extreme sadism.


They aren't openly recruiting for it, they recruited Tobi by directly seeking her out and likely no one else, considering Levin's reaction to a beastman being in the game. Smile doesn't look like a ghoul at all, no horns and not squiggly teeth. And I'd hardly call it extreme sadism when there is always an option to not betray each other. Or rather, I'd say the games done by the Red Tower are much more sadistic, as blood and gore seem to be the only option, while blood and gore is completely avoidable in the games by the Smile Foundation.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

That's a very colourful playing field.
I think the game hosts want to see some good old-fashioned violence.

And Levin sounds like he'll jump at the chance.
So, betting time. Who will live? Who will die? Who will dye their hands in deepest crimson? :Small Amused:

----------


## Forum Explorer

> New comic
> 
> That's a very colourful playing field.
> I think the game hosts want to see some good old-fashioned violence.
> 
> And Levin sounds like he'll jump at the chance.
> So, betting time. Who will live? Who will die? Who will dye their hands in deepest crimson?


My bet is no one will die, as we will get to see the Paladin go all out.

----------


## -D-

> They aren't openly recruiting for it, they recruited Tobi by directly seeking her out and likely no one else, considering Levin's reaction to a beastman being in the game. Smile doesn't look like a ghoul at all, no horns and not squiggly teeth. And I'd hardly call it extreme sadism when there is always an option to not betray each other. Or rather, I'd say the games done by the Red Tower are much more sadistic, as blood and gore seem to be the only option, while blood and gore is completely avoidable in the games by the Smile Foundation.


The ghouls recruited her in the open. That's what I meant. My guess is that Shalia the paladin was recuited too.

Also, while not Outright sadist, it's psychologically sadistics. 
Oh. You don't have to betray each other. But if you do there is a reward. Oh, look there is a chainsaw and rules about no killing are suspended, toodooloo.

----------


## Kantaki

> The ghouls recruited her in the open. That's what I meant. My guess is that Shalia the paladin was recuited too.
> 
> Also, while not Outright sadist, it's psychologically sadistics. 
> Oh. You don't have to betray each other. But if you do there is a reward. Oh, look there is a chainsaw and rules about no killing are suspended, toodooloo.


I mean, no one is _forcing_ the candidates to use the chainsaw on each other.
They're given the opportunity and some incentive to do so, sure, but everything else is on them.
Clearly this is a psychology experiment.
Sociology?
Some of that headology stuff anyway.
That it leads to some highly entertaining violence is just a bonus.

----------


## Gez

The paladin recruited herself by following the ghouls to the furnace that serves as a disguised entrance to the Smile complex, and using her "seeker cells" to find the secret passage inside. They allowed her to participate, at the expense of Jay-Jay.

The ghouls themselves don't work directly for Smile, but are aware of it. When Tobi arrived in the complex, the Smile ladies were surprised she had arrived so soon.




> I mean, no one is _forcing_ the candidates to use the chainsaw on each other.
> They're given the opportunity and some incentive to do so, sure, but everything else is on them.
> Clearly this is a psychology experiment.
> Sociology?
> Some of that headology stuff anyway.
> That it leads to some highly entertaining violence is just a bonus.


It's an extended riff on the prisoner's dilemma. The best outcome is if everyone cooperates in good faith, but fear of cheaters will push people to cheat. Good example of that: with the apple & orange trading, fruits given to the group are worth more than those you keep for yourself.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic
Pablo time

On one hand those guys are usually pretty amusing.
On the other hand boo cliffhanger. 
On the gripping hand the fade out should've been a hint.
On the fourth tentacle I really want to know what the punishment game is about.

----------


## -D-

> New comic
> Pablo time
> 
> On one hand those guys are usually pretty amusing.
> On the other hand boo cliffhanger. 
> On the gripping hand the fade out should've been a hint.
> On the fourth tentacle I really want to know what the punishment game is about.


Yeah. Really, good cliffhanger.

Punishment game was about treasure and free for all. Although paladin wasn't there.

----------


## Gez

> Punishment game was about treasure and free for all. Although paladin wasn't there.


That was an author error. One of the rare times that neorice reuploaded a page to fix a mistake in it. If you refresh, you'll see Shalhia appear in the middle of the group.

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> That was an author error. One of the rare times that neorice reuploaded a page to fix a mistake in it. If you refresh, you'll see Shalhia appear in the middle of the group.


I'm a bit lazy with typo's, but an entire character missing from a panel was a bit much hahahaha.  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:  :Small Eek:

----------


## lord_khaine

> I'm a bit lazy with typo's, but an entire character missing from a panel was a bit much hahahaha.


It did save us from about 2 chapters worth of dumb speculation about there the %¤# Shayla were.

----------


## Kantaki

Those interviews will just keep getting worse, won't they? :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Kornaki

Don't they kind of not have time for this though?

----------


## Kantaki

Well, Alden certainly knows the most important part of the business.
*PRESENTATION!* :Small Cool: 
I could _hear_ the background music change when he pulled that teleport.

Burk though... :Small Amused: 
You already got to see the man in action.
What more can you possibly want?

----------


## -D-

We're back to Noah's Arc  :Small Big Grin: 

Also the small cat-berus is cute. I want one!

----------


## lord_khaine

It looks like an abomination. I suspect its there to inflict mental damage.
Well. The royal guard is already doing a good job there. Not doing a good job fostering loyalty though.

----------


## Kantaki

> We're back to Noah's Arc 
> 
> Also the small cat-berus is cute. I want one!


Everyone wants one.
Until it grows up.

----------


## -D-

> Everyone wants one.
> Until it grows up.


I'll just feed it my enemies.

----------


## Kantaki

> I'll just feed it my enemies.


A renewable resource.
You always make new ones. :Small Amused:

----------


## TaRix

Huh.  Another chapter change already?  I'm not used to fast webcomic pacing.

----------


## -D-

> Huh.  Another chapter change already?  I'm not used to fast webcomic pacing.


I am saddened by Noah bait and switch, and my day is ruined.

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> I am saddened by Noah bait and switch, and my day is ruined.


Don't worry about that.

----------


## Gez

> I really wouldn't be suprised if that girl with glasses turns out to be worse than Levin


I don't think it'd be possible for her to be worse than Levin. Take a look here:
http://neorice.com/hoh_tobi_1172
http://neorice.com/hoh_tobi_1173

Imagine _Levin_ saying things like "we should give the faceless man a fair share of the loot" and "we should leave the other players some amount of money, too". I mean, sure, her motives for doing so are self-serving (basically the money she leaves behind is to serve as a bribe) but would Levin actually care about that?

----------


## Gez

> As soon as she's been told what button does what, she voted to kill.
> Even Levin waited until he knew all the rules


But that's the thing. She had a plausible denial, claiming she misunderstood the explanation because Smile shifted from "vote for killing" to "vote for not killing" in his description. True or false here is irrelevant, the point is that she actually takes into account how people may react and try to plan for it.

Levin has made it his life's mission to antagonize as many people as possible. Like here in the beginning, it's like he's trying to get Fox to snap.

----------


## lord_khaine

> But that's the thing. She had a plausible denial, claiming she misunderstood the explanation because Smile shifted from "vote for killing" to "vote for not killing" in his description. True or false here is irrelevant, the point is that she actually takes into account how people may react and try to plan for it.
> 
> Levin has made it his life's mission to antagonize as many people as possible. Like here in the beginning, it's like he's trying to get Fox to snap.


I cant see how being a better manipulator than Levin somehow makes her a better person?  :Small Confused: 
So far the only meaningful difference between them seems to be, she cares about putting up a facade.
But she kinda showed her true face at the vote. Where Levin himself called her out on her BS.

----------


## -D-

> I cant see how being a better manipulator than Levin somehow makes her a better person? 
> So far the only meaningful difference between them seems to be, she cares about putting up a facade.
> But she kinda showed her true face at the vote. Where Levin himself called her out on her BS.


You are proven correct once again. She's a snake in tall grass, compared to Levin that's an Anaconda in plain sight. The difference merely seems to be who's the bigger threat atm.

----------


## lord_khaine

> The difference merely seems to be who's the bigger threat atm.


Thats really hard to tell. Levin has all the subtlety of a kick in the balls. But he is also annoyingly competent.
As recently demonstrated.

Glasses lady meanwhile might be subtle (likely also a coward).
But has not displayed any special degree of skill.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Infinite is great. I wouldn't trust him as far as I can throw a elephant, but he has style. :Small Cool: 

Also, Bindy's reaction to her boss' antics. :Small Big Grin: 
Just " :Small Sigh: There we go again. :Small Sigh: ". :Small Amused: 
I think this is the first time she doesn't look half a step past panic.

----------


## Gez

> Also, Bindy's reaction to her boss' antics.
> Just "There we go again.".
> I think this is the first time she doesn't look half a step past panic.


I'm actually surprised she didn't ask her boss for permission to roll her eyes.

----------


## Kantaki

> I'm actually surprised she didn't ask her boss for permission to roll her eyes.


To be perfectly honest?
This is making me incredibly suspicious about her.

Before she was odd, but believable. Enough that I didn't question Infinite dragging her along.
Maybe it amused him, maybe he knows she won't act against him, maybe he just likes that she isn't like the other underlings.

Now I wonder. Is she really that harmless? Did Infinite take her along because she's actually dangerous?
How much of her scaridy-cat behaviour is a act?
And for/against whom?

In retrospect I should've started thinking about this when she first showed up in the game.

----------


## Kornaki

I think I mostly trust him here.  He can only use this to kill the people so powerless that they need his help getting across.  I don't see why he would start a fight with the paladin and burn any chance at getting closer to Tobi just to kill someone he could kill at any later opportunity.  

I would be pretty surprised if he dropped anyone to die (or into the rainbow for someone else to kill). That said, he might not fight that hard to save someone if they're attacked or hindered by another player.

----------


## Forum Explorer

I'm pretty curious to see who will actually take Infinite up on his deal. I expect the Paladin to not bother, but Tobi is pretty up in the air in that regard. 

Anyone want to take any bets on who can disregard the rule against killing? My money is on the shy guy, or the cop. Basically seeing how much it would take to drive either of them to kill someone.

----------


## TeChameleon

I'm honestly stuck on how exactly the Infinite clones are sticking together, especially when they don't have external support.

For the 'allowed to kill'?  Kinda leaning towards Bindy, if the Smiles are as sadistic as they generally seem.  Somebody that apparently subservient?  Actually, come to think of it, probably the same logic that you were going with, Forum Explorer.

... back when the trading game was still happening, I actually half-wondered if it had somehow been Bindy who had injured Three, since we have no idea what her capabilities are, but Infinite brought her for a reason (albeit the reason could just be 'it was funny at the time').

----------


## Kornaki

> I'm honestly stuck on how exactly the Infinite clones are sticking together, especially when they don't have external support.


It be magic alright.

----------


## Kantaki

Bindy just looks so done with all of this.
Should something unfortunate happen to Infinite she's the prime suspect. :Small Amused: 




> I'm honestly stuck on how exactly the Infinite clones are sticking together, especially when they don't have external support.


It's quite simple, really.
He is Infinite, they're Infinite.
One and the same, like arms and legs and stuff are part of the same body.
So as long as all Infinites stick together the Infinites stick to each other.

----------


## Forum Explorer

Can I have an oh snap? I was not expecting today's comic at all.

And it looks like Tobi is a lot more important than we thought. And the ghouls weren't referring to her last name when they talked to her.

----------


## TeChameleon

Uh...

Huh.  Magic, as always, turns out to be weird and kind of icky.

----------


## -D-

> It's quite simple, really.
> He is Infinite, they're Infinite.
> One and the same, like arms and legs and stuff are part of the same body.
> So as long as all Infinites stick together the Infinites stick to each other.


More like they are stuck to the eldritch abomination attached to Infinite.

----------


## Kornaki

The unbound ones= unbound spirits? And those who see=the paladins I guess? It seems like a bit of a broad stroke to brush with, are the paladins and the magic spirits in a larger supernatural political conflict of some sort?

----------


## Forum Explorer

> The unbound ones= unbound spirits? And those who see=the paladins I guess? It seems like a bit of a broad stroke to brush with, are the paladins and the magic spirits in a larger supernatural political conflict of some sort?


I'm assuming unbound spirits, but hey, they could mean Ghouls for all we know. 

I'm inclined to think it isn't only paladins who can see spirits like that. I expect there are multiple groups in the G.O. who have that capability.

----------


## TeChameleon

Huh.

So, is Infinite somehow a special case with his power source, or do all magic users have a 'spirit of pandemonium' attached to them?  If all magic users have an S.o.P. stuck to them, who's been doing the sticking?  Because up until this point, all things pointed towards people with magic being born that way.

And how special does this make Noah, since he apparently just randomly created a spirit of his own?  Also, how inimical to humans are the various spirits, since Noah was warned against them?

... and how evil is humanity going to turn out to be when it's revealed that the spirits have a justifiable grievance and humans are the real monsters, as per the usual?  :Small Confused:

----------


## -D-

Wasn't Global order formed to stop magic users?

----------


## Grim Portent

> Wasn't Global order formed to stop magic users?


If I recall correctly, GO was founded to establish order and stability in areas outside the jurisdiction of the Heroes Guild and the Empire rather than specifically to stop magic users, but due to the threat magic users pose to everyone else when they start getting violent the GO makes various magical bioweapons like the paladins, pod soldiers and Three with the specific aim of countering criminal magic users. To stop them going rogue, the paladins at least are unable to use their powers to harm non-magic people though Three and the pod soldiers seem to have no such limitation when it comes to their choice of targets.

----------


## lord_khaine

> So, is Infinite somehow a special case with his power source, or do all magic users have a 'spirit of pandemonium' attached to them? If all magic users have an S.o.P. stuck to them, who's been doing the sticking? Because up until this point, all things pointed towards people with magic being born that way.


From the paladins comment, its at least all Pandemonium users who have a spirit attached to them. We dont know about other types yes.




> And how special does this make Noah, since he apparently just randomly created a spirit of his own? Also, how inimical to humans are the various spirits, since Noah was warned against them?


Its in no way certain Ciel were created by Noah. Not after what we have seen with Infinity.

----------


## Kornaki

My guess is the magic users that can do anything are just calling on random different unbound spirits to help them out for a bit.

----------


## TeChameleon

> From the paladins comment, its at least all Pandemonium users who have a spirit attached to them. We dont know about other types yes.
> 
> Its in no way certain Ciel were created by Noah. Not after what we have seen with Infinity.


Ciel herself implied pretty heavily that she was created by Noah's abilities, if not outright stated it, though.

----------


## Kantaki

> Ciel herself implied pretty heavily that she was created by Noah's abilities, if not outright stated it, though.


Well, the specific manifestation of "Ciel" that Noah can see and talk to probably was.
But, assuming Noah's magic works like Infinite's, I doubt the devil girl is the real "Ciel".
Of course that assumes Noah's spirit-thing is talking through her.

----------


## Kornaki

I really thought that lose some comment was a lead in to their punishment for having no money, but I guess it was just a sick burn.

----------


## Gez

> I really thought that lose some comment was a lead in to their punishment for having no money, but I guess it was just a sick burn.


The thing is that the Smile Foundation itself will not punish the participants as long as they don't break the rules. They'll just keep putting the players in situations where they're likely to hurt each other or themselves. But not any sort of direct harm.

A good example is that "penalty game". The losers of the trade game got put in an arena where you need superhuman mobility (or assistance) to reach the exit safely, and except for the starting position, everywhere is PVP-enabled.

----------


## lord_khaine

> The thing is that the Smile Foundation itself will not punish the participants as long as they don't break the rules. They'll just keep putting the players in situations where they're likely to hurt each other or themselves. But not any sort of direct harm.


Absolutely. The main thing its the players themselves who are screwing each other over.
For example. Had everyone behaved in the previous game. Then they would have earned a small fortune and gone free of this round.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> A good example is that "penalty game". The losers of the trade game got put in an arena where you need superhuman mobility (or assistance) to reach the exit safely, and except for the starting position, everywhere is PVP-enabled.


Also worth noting that the biggest danger is the PVP. The various 'cleaners' could pretty easily escort the other players out of the arena just fine. As Infinite basically did.

----------


## Kantaki

Really Bindy?
_Should_ I wash myself?
_May_ seems to be the better word here.
Even your boss's confused by that one.

"You smell like death. And not the good kind." is a great line though, even if I don't want to think to hard about it.

----------


## Ibrinar

*Spoiler: huge update*
Show

I am kinda hoping that making it abundantly clear he is working for not so great people motivates Noah to try to get out of the situation. (Well he knows that of course since he is basically there because he has a gun to his head but this is more large scale.) As hard as that would be if this mess doesn't give him an escape route.

----------


## Kantaki

New _chapter_

Well, that's quite the development.

Veda and Malhart both look kinda freakish.
Veda more so, she has that "I'll eat your soul" quality to her, while the old man just looks _old_. "I was already an old man when your great-grandfather's  great-grandfather was born" old, but still just old.

Also, those reactions to meeting someone their own size. :Small Amused: 

Malhart is cool though. Hope he sticks around.

*Spoiler*
Show

The town is probably a write off, what with Veda just disabling the only thing keeping the nightmares at bay.
On the other hand the "kid" (well, not anymore, after almost two decades. Unless she was really young back then.) seems to have some control now, so maybe things will turn out fine?

Not sure if I should hope Veda bites it, she has it coming, but it might be bad for Noah and the other recruits if the project dies with her.

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah hot dam that was some revelations.
Expose just what sort of sociopath Veda is. Unleashing that kind of horror on a major town.
Also actually a lot of relevant bits about the world. Such as just how powerful high end magic users are.
Or how Justopia actually managed to survive so far.

----------


## Kantaki

> Yeah hot dam that was some revelations.
> Expose just what sort of sociopath Veda is. Unleashing that kind of horror on a major town.
> Also actually a lot of relevant bits about the world. Such as just how powerful high end magic users are.
> Or how Justopia actually managed to survive so far.


I mean, to be fair to Veda*, she did recommend evacuating Haven.
Mind you, she looses all those points by going on with plan "murder the kindly old man keeping the horrors sealed" anyway, but she did try to reduce collateral damage.

* :Small Yuk: Writing that's gonna leave a bad taste. :Small Yuk:

----------


## Gez

From page 1939 to page 1999, inclusive. 61 pages in one single update.

Neorice, you absolute madman!

----------


## lord_khaine

> I mean, to be fair to Veda*, she did recommend evacuating Haven.
> Mind you, she looses all those points by going on with plan "murder the kindly old man keeping the horrors sealed" anyway, but she did try to reduce collateral damage.


She already lost those points when she made it clear, the important part was to be on record as having asked for the evacuation.
So that leaves her at a solid negative.

Neorice puts it perfectly in chapter 1973 "Our antagonist of this arc everyone, a philantrophic rebellious painter trying to save people from horrific deaths."

----------


## Forum Explorer

Sweet, nice to get a whole chapter all at once. Or maybe most of a chapter? 

I really hope Veda dies here though. It's not that she's a despicable character, I don't mind that so much. But she's entirely way to self assured for my liking. Seeing her arrogance backfire and harm her personally would be immensely satisfying.

----------


## Gez

Veda really dropped the mask in that chapter, she was so certain she couldn't fail that she gave up on the pretenses...

She said Malhart's magic could be replicated, why wasn't that actually part of her plan B?

----------


## -D-

What a drop.

Also there is 0 chance this will bite Veda significantly. Nail and Noah are coming to her rescue.

Fun moments. 
Triggering Noah with a question. 
And referring to height as length category.

----------


## TeChameleon

... am I the only one that thinks that the arm that grabbed Veda looks a lot like the Paladin's (the one hanging out with Tobi) flesh-construct thingies?

Honestly, this world sounds more than a little precarious; it feels like it's the drop of a hat away from imploding when uber-powerful magic whatevers decide they've had enough of people doing weird crap to try and keep up with them and all the superweapons being fired at each other.

----------


## -D-

> ... am I the only one that thinks that the arm that grabbed Veda looks a lot like the Paladin's (the one hanging out with Tobi) flesh-construct thingies?
> 
> Honestly, this world sounds more than a little precarious; it feels like it's the drop of a hat away from imploding when uber-powerful magic whatevers decide they've had enough of people doing weird crap to try and keep up with them and all the superweapons being fired at each other.


It's quite possible that spirits are in some kind of competition, that would make Lorg look like a peaceful seaside town.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I really hope Veda dies here though. It's not that she's a despicable character, I don't mind that so much. But she's entirely way to self assured for my liking. Seeing her arrogance backfire and harm her personally would be immensely satisfying.


See i think thats kinda funny xD
I mean its quite justified for Veda to be so confident. She has, until now, basically been playing chess while everyone else were playing checkers.
But she is a monster on a scale that dwarfs every other villain we have seen so far. Levin is just an unpleasant guy in comparison.

Unfortunately it seems likely she is a powerful magic user. So i think she will survive.




> ... am I the only one that thinks that the arm that grabbed Veda looks a lot like the Paladin's (the one hanging out with Tobi) flesh-construct thingies?


Likely. I took a second look at the arm. I dont think it look anything like the Paladins.
Wrong color. has nails. And looks more like a real arm, less like a flesh abomination.




> Honestly, this world sounds more than a little precarious; it feels like it's the drop of a hat away from imploding when uber-powerful magic whatevers decide they've had enough of people doing weird crap to try and keep up with them and all the superweapons being fired at each other.


It mostly seems like a nuclear stalemate. I dont think if you put all the ultra-mages in the same room, that they could agree on as much as what color the carpet were.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> See i think thats kinda funny xD
> I mean its quite justified for Veda to be so confident. She has, until now, basically been playing chess while everyone else were playing checkers.
> But she is a monster on a scale that dwarfs every other villain we have seen so far. Levin is just an unpleasant guy in comparison.
> 
> Unfortunately it seems likely she is a powerful magic user. So i think she will survive.
> 
> 
> 
> It mostly seems like a nuclear stalemate. I dont think if you put all the ultra-mages in the same room, that they could agree on as much as what color the carpet were.


I mean, this mostly comes from Veda being two steps ahead, _somehow._ Our perspective is limited, but Veda's knowledge has never been justified or explained as far as I remember. 

My money is on her not being a magic user. 

I'd disagree with that. I think all the ultra-mages likely get along at least relatively fine. Because pretty much the only thing an ultra-mage needs to fear is another ultra-mage, so it's in their best interest to at least manage to get along well enough to not fight.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I mean, this mostly comes from Veda being two steps ahead, somehow. Our perspective is limited, but Veda's knowledge has never been justified or explained as far as I remember.


Somehow? What is there to be justified or explained? Veda is smart and have done her research. While at the same time comming from a more advanced country.
I dont think any of her conclusions has been unreasonable. She had a plan for catching Malharts kids that was solid. use other kids as bait.
And a plan for catching Malhard that was equally solid. use Malhards kids to bait Malhard with the antidote.

If she isnt a regular magic user, then she is still something else than normal. Seems quite clear it was her that were the monster who spooked the Elf during the attack.




> I'd disagree with that. I think all the ultra-mages likely get along at least relatively fine. Because pretty much the only thing an ultra-mage needs to fear is another ultra-mage, so it's in their best interest to at least manage to get along well enough to not fight.


Thats.. not entirely correct. There is also being poisoned by black crystal. Being poisoned in general. Getting ganged up on by enough mega-mages. And getting stabbed by a gold weapon.
We also know that all of them except one has signed up with some government. Since said government dont rule the world i think its fair to assume its different governments.

----------


## Gez

> If she isnt a regular magic user, then she is still something else than normal. Seems quite clear it was her that were the monster who spooked the Elf during the attack.


She apparently isn't a magic user.

But neither is Levin, and he still has some weirdness about him. Nor this guy, see the audience comments about lack of magical sparkles.

Likewise, Veda can be surprised by a man with a gun while she's half-asleep in her nightgown, and it ends poorly for her attacker. Her reaction when she was about to get crushed wasn't one of fear, either.

So it's clear that "magic" is not the only sort of supernatural capacity going around.

----------


## lord_khaine

> She apparently isn't a magic user.


Yeah i personally claim BS on that  :Small Big Grin: 
Notice how she just say she took their test and came out clean. 
How hard do you think it would be for Veda to cheat that test?




> But neither is Levin, and he still has some weirdness about him. Nor this guy, see the audience comments about lack of magical sparkles.


I also already had a minor flamewar over with at the dischord channel. While sparkles = magic, no sparkles does not = no magic.
We have seen people using enhanced speed and strenght without sparkles before.

More importantly. We have this. http://neorice.com/hoh_noah_324
That seems pretty much magic to me. 

Or well. Supernatural at the very least. We do of course have other examples in Beastmen and Ghouls of alternative supernatural things.

----------


## Gez

> Yeah i personally claim BS on that 
> Notice how she just say she took their test and came out clean. 
> How hard do you think it would be for Veda to cheat that test?
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Or well. Supernatural at the very least. We do of course have other examples in Beastmen and Ghouls of alternative supernatural things.


Yes, that's the gist of it. The people in this universe seem to have a very narrow understanding of what "magic" is, since they've got it sorted in three categories (to wit: pandemonium, free magic, magic potential), we've found out that pandemonium magic at least relies on a bound spirit (dunno about free and potential), and there's this "black crystal" McGuffin that blocks out magic.

But there's plenty of clearly-not-mundane skills (such as Tobi's blueprint-o-vision, no matter how much she insists it's totally normal, or the Paladin's grafted cells) that are technically not "magic" as far as it is understood in universe, but which clearly looks magical to us readers.

Or to go back to everyone's favorite Levin, we know he participated in Death Run and similar games, and that Death Run contestants are made to black crystal necklace to block their magic. It doesn't block Tobi's abilities, and presumably neither did it block Levin's. The Paladin didn't detect anything about Levin nor about Tobi. And of course, there's Burk, who's not using magic either, and yet is still absolutely ridiculous in combat. The Royal Guards also exhibit clearly supernatural speed and strength, and that can't just be chalked up to "training from birth".


 And to be honest, Pablo's outfit is clearly weird, too.

Then if we take the recent intermission into account, we can hazard the guess that "magic" is understood as supernatural powers that originate from an alternate dimension (let's call it Pandemonium, as it has to be the home plane of those spirits of Pandemonium) trying to infiltrate the HOH world (perhaps to escape some unknown threat), but other supernatural powers (perhaps those "native" to the world instead of originating from Pandemonium) are not considered to be magic.

So if we accept that "magic" has a very narrow definition in this universe which doesn't encompass all sorts of supernatural abilities, then yes, it's perfectly reasonable to accept that Veda is indeed not a _magic_ user. She still has weird powers, that much is indisputable.

In fact it's a bit surprising that the magical-but-not-_magic_ thing is not more widely known, given freaks like Levin or Burk, Global Order bioweapon programs, or Livarian diplomatic couture.

Fun fact from re-reading: Herman and Sherman.

----------


## Kantaki

Rereading Noah's arc thanks to the discussion.
Chernyl actually was mentioned during the briefing for the Haven mission.
Looking back both the name and the photo* were kind of prophetic.

*Sure it's old, but it's still kinda ominous looking, like something out of a ghost story or something Lovecraft inspired.
I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't change much in the twelve years (+?) since it was made.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Stuff


I will say its vaguely disinformative to say Veda isnt a magic user. Instead of just that she likely isnt a human magic user. 
Since as such it does look like she uses magic. 

And thinking about it. I also believe that the system we learned about were as such accurate enough.
It just only applies to humans. 

Where we got a decent amount of racial exceptions in Beastfolk. Ghouls. Whatever Tobi is. And likely a few others.

The Paladin dont seem like one of those. Besides her sight i would mostly call her a biological cyborg.

Regarding the Royal Guard. I actually do think they are just humans trained from birth.
We have not been given any hints to the opposite. And if their abilities somethings seem to skirt the edge of the realistic.
Then im ready to chalk it up to dramatic comic effect.

Burk is another matter. But while his strenght and speed are at a near superhuman level.
Then they are still only at the edge of what is believeable. The most impossible thing he has done (besides his jumping ability),
is knocking experienced spirit users out. His punches should not have been able to hurt Logan, Ariana or Goldman.

But they did. My personal theory there is something along the line of gold-laced bones. 
Meaning Burk's punches hurt in a way they should not. Because he is what 110 kg of muscle? and negate non-magical defence.

----------


## Gez

> I will say its vaguely disinformative to say Veda isnt a magic user. Instead of just that she likely isnt a human magic user. 
> Since as such it does look like she uses magic.


Do you think making her wear a black crystal necklace would hinder her abilities?

If not, then it's not _magic_ she uses. Even if it's something that otherwise quacks like magic and walks like magic.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Do you think making her wear a black crystal necklace would hinder her abilities?
> 
> If not, then it's not magic she uses. Even if it's something that otherwise quacks like magic and walks like magic.


Hmm.. honestly i give it a 50/50 chance. We dont know enough about what black crystal do. Except its seemingly moderatly rare. Negate spirit on touch.
And are super toxic.

At the same time. No. I dont accept the definition of magic as "everything shut down by black crystal".
Not when we know so little about it.

----------


## Kantaki

You know, dropping all those heroes on the bandits is almost unfair.
Overkill, really.
So I expect the leader to either (try to) run away or break out the secret doomsday weapons.
Wait. They're the guys with the doom-piglets, weren't they?
Same group as those bandits from the beginning of Burk's story?
Could get interesting.

----------


## lord_khaine

Nah.. we know this should go moderatly easy. Its later on we get the big hero vs hero catfight.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

*PIGGIES!* :Small Big Grin: 

Clearly this is where our heroes shall aquire their loyal steeds.
I'm sure Piper will extatic meeting those cuties. :Small Amused: 
Pablo too, I guess...

----------


## lord_khaine

Pablo does thankfully have a very big security team.
While Piper might want to roast those things from afar.

Im not to worried about the heroes though.

----------


## TeChameleon

I wouldn't worry about the heroes if they were just facing down the Überschwein.

Trying to fight the Überschwein while Burk tries to tame them instead of fighting, on the other hand, could get messy.  Hopefully none of the heroes get dissolved  :Small Yuk:

----------


## Kantaki

Yep.
Nightshade Hero's seriously scary.
Sure, we already knew he and his power are creepy, but this takes it to a new level.
The guy looks outright villainous here. 
Poor piggies...

----------


## -D-

Ok, now I get it why we had the magic ghoul talk.

----------


## Neoriceisgood

Another full chapter drop starting here: http://neorice.com/hoh_2052

Enjoy.

----------


## Kantaki

*Spoiler: new chapter*
Show

Does this mean the game's finally started? I'm half expecting Infinite to fake it, but still, this seems like it will kick start the action.

Levin rises a very good point why it wasn't him though. 
There would be more bodies if he were the culprit. 

Smile's alibi might be less airtight than seems at first glance. 
After all, who says they need hands to make a holey crime boss?

Maybe it _was_Billy? 
There's only so many times someone can tolerate being misnamed before making a statement.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Gez

For the long shot, I'm betting on Green. He's from Global Order, so we know he belongs to an organization dedicated to eradicating rogue mages like Infinite, he's been very mousey about his purpose here, and he's nowhere to be seen in this chapter.

----------


## Magelyte

> For the long shot, I'm betting on Green. He's from Global Order, so we know he belongs to an organization dedicated to eradicating rogue mages like Infinite, he's been very mousey about his purpose here, and he's nowhere to be seen in this chapter.


Green does show up when everyone gathers in the main room, he just doesnt make any contributions to the discussion so hes not very noticeable.

----------


## Forum Explorer

I'm putting my money on Bindy. Here's my reasoning:

We know the 'Red' Team from the last game has a gun of some sort. That means they are prime suspects. That's Jay-Jay, Mindy, Levin, and Maria.

We know Jay-Jay and Levin didn't have the gun going into the bonus round. So that leaves Bindy and Maria. No one mentioned Maria, so it is possible it was her. 

But Bindy was there. And when she was leaving the bonus room she seemed to be fed up with Infinite's BS.

----------


## TeChameleon

Huh, didn't notice it was Neorice themselves that dropped the chapter link.

If you're still reading the thread, kudos, love the comic- many thanks for taking the time to make it for us!  I know pixel art isn't nearly as simple as some people make it out to be, and yours is very good.

*Spoiler*
Show

Infinite, by the very nature of his powers, seems to be the one who could fake his own death the easiest.

That being said, there's someone else in play that everyone seems to be forgetting- both inside the comic and out- how much control does Infinite's Spirit of Pandemonium have over the clones that they generate for Infinite, should they happen to be in the mood to exert said control?  A clone that shot its putative 'master', chucked the gun someplace inaccessible and out of sight, and then vanished into the aether would make for quite the locked-room mystery...

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> Huh, didn't notice it was Neorice themselves that dropped the chapter link.
> 
> If you're still reading the thread, kudos, love the comic- many thanks for taking the time to make it for us!  I know pixel art isn't nearly as simple as some people make it out to be, and yours is very good.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Infinite, by the very nature of his powers, seems to be the one who could fake his own death the easiest.
> 
> That being said, there's someone else in play that everyone seems to be forgetting- both inside the comic and out- how much control does Infinite's Spirit of Pandemonium have over the clones that they generate for Infinite, should they happen to be in the mood to exert said control?  A clone that shot its putative 'master', chucked the gun someplace inaccessible and out of sight, and then vanished into the aether would make for quite the locked-room mystery...


Thanks so much Chameleon! I appreciate it! Yeah I figured it'd be a bit easier for people to know where to start with the drop if I just link the first page, hahaha.

Appreciate the comments on the art.

----------


## Kantaki

Noah time
Army: "You have my bow."
Royal Guard:"And my axe."
Secret Police:"We're gonna blow this place to kingdom come at first excuse."

They're called "secret" police because it is better to keep them in the dark, right?  :Small Sigh: 

I wouldn't be surprised if the capture team finds out blowing the city up would make things worse and they still insist on doing so. 

Burk time

Burk has free hand to "defend himself"?  :Small Eek: 
_Someone_ made a tactical mistake, I think.

Tobi time
A trivia quiz?
I kinda expect questions like?
"What is Intern #3's favourite number?"
"How many blue fields has the killing floor in the third game?"
"How often did Smile lie so far?"

----------


## lord_khaine

> For the long shot, I'm betting on Green. He's from Global Order, so we know he belongs to an organization dedicated to eradicating rogue mages like Infinite, he's been very mousey about his purpose here, and he's nowhere to be seen in this chapter.


I think less eradicating.. more just countering. The main goal seems to prevent them from doing as they please and creating chaos.
And i can see why someone might guess Mr Green is secretly a GO assasin. But infinity joined on very short notice. 
So i find it unlikely Mr Green is someone send after Infinity. More likely he is there of his own reasons.




> I'm putting my money on Bindy. Here's my reasoning:


Not an unreasonable guess. For a significant amount of murders the victim did know his killer.




> Tobi time
> A trivia quiz?


Turns out its a world building overdose :P
Well we got a lot of interesting information. Like what caused the fall of the GO founder.
Whats the major GO political parties. Who are then 10 most wanted criminals.

----------


## -D-

> Turns out its a world building overdose :P
> Well we got a lot of interesting information. Like what caused the fall of the GO founder.
> Whats the major GO political parties. Who are then 10 most wanted criminals.


Not just world building. We saw Magilante queen. Confirming they are in fact machines.

Also red boi there looks very sus. Kinda like some teacher.

----------


## lord_khaine

Hmm.. no we didnt see the Magilante Queen.
Just a Queen from Magilante. A vital difference  :Small Tongue: 

Though good point on the resemblence Mr Red have with Garth.

----------


## Gez

> Not just world building. We saw Magilante queen. Confirming they are in fact machines.


Did we? If you mean the Brass Queen of Dolls, she is described as "one of the many magilante automatom[sic] to go rogue". And she is one of the Top Ten Most Wanted Criminals In The World. So based on the fact that she went rogue and is considered a criminal, the likelihood that she is in fact the actual queen of Magilante is approximately zero.

It's kind of like saying Tarzan is the King of England because he's English and King of the Jungle.

----------


## Welf

> Rereading Noah's arc thanks to the discussion.
> Chernyl actually was mentioned during the briefing for the Haven mission.
> Looking back both the name and the photo* were kind of prophetic.
> 
> *Sure it's old, but it's still kinda ominous looking, like something out of a ghost story or something Lovecraft inspired.
> I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't change much in the twelve years (+?) since it was made.


I also read the old strips again. And Chernyl's power have been foreshadowed already back in 2015.

----------


## lord_khaine

Hmm.. no thats not a foreshadowing to Cherryls power.
Its a reference to the time where someones nightmare almost killed Noah, because he got stuck in it.

----------


## Kornaki

Why didn't they vote on mr brown's answer?

----------


## lord_khaine

Thats a good question.
The answer is very likely that the author forgot.

----------


## Gez

> Why didn't they vote on mr brown's answer?


I'd say they did, it just wasn't shown with the usual color panel. But Levin's comment of "and so the competition gets culled, perfect" shows he clearly thought Brown's answer was a disqualification, and Green as we saw knew the actual answer.


BTW: Levin's color in that game is purple, so the finalists are Green and Purple.

----------


## -D-

> It's kind of like saying Tarzan is the King of England because he's English and King of the Jungle.


My argument here was that Tarzan was a human, his official title isn't as important. Missing the forest from the trees. Is she a leader or just a puppet or a PR head? Don't really care.

----------


## Forum Explorer

So anyone else think it is deliberate that Tobi is set up in such a way to not share anything about herself? Like, she literally can't. She's forbidden to participate since she has no winnings, so she can't double her winnings by sharing something about herself.

----------


## Kornaki

Who do you think deliberately did that? The people running the game?

----------


## Gez

Interestingly, this question is one that Three could potentially answer! Supposing he knows, and at least makes a guess. Since Tobi and him have made a sign language to designate each of the contestants. He could hit the button, make a sign, and have Tobi interpret it, then do a thumb up gesture or something to confirm Tobi's interpretation.

----------


## lord_khaine

> So anyone else think it is deliberate that Tobi is set up in such a way to not share anything about herself? Like, she literally can't. She's forbidden to participate since she has no winnings, so she can't double her winnings by sharing something about herself.


Nah. They had no way to control she would be unable to score any points at all, even by random chance, in round first. 
The odds were not -that- bad of getting at least 1 thing right.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Who do you think deliberately did that? The people running the game?


Yes.




> Nah. They had no way to control she would be unable to score any points at all, even by random chance, in round first. 
> The odds were not -that- bad of getting at least 1 thing right.


Yeah, I expected them to all get personal questions about themselves, but it looks like that was pretty limited.

----------


## Alandra

This question seems like the perfect setup to make everybody think that Smile didn't murder infinity, only to reveal that it's the suit that is called Smile and the person inside has a different name. That would explain why Smile says that he "technically" has no problem with being voted for.

Or it's just a big red herring.

----------


## lord_khaine

I think your overthinking this. 
Mr Green's reasoning is perfectly viable for a scientist. Find out what the heck the deal is with the suit person.
He dont want to kill a person with the vote thing. So he might as well sate his curiosity.

And we know the suit person could not be the killer. Due to not being able to hold a weapon.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

I dunno, Tobi. "Will your answers make us kill you?" is a pretty good question.
With that in mind I'd definitely wait until I've heard all their answers before voting.

Also, if it wasn't consistent with how it acted so far I'd think the Smile-Voice (the game_master) wanted Tobi and Jay-Jay to take the deal.
I mean, I still suspect it, simply because it might want to keep the Smile-suit in the game- not the player necessarily, but having a "body" to hijack and act directly in-game seems like it is too useful a pawn/tool to discard this early in the experiment.
Still, might just be part of the "very literal GM persona". Maybe.

Edit: Also, looking at the previous round of votes I'm not sure how useful the "Are you the Host?" question actually is.
If the Host is in the game, would the lies get you killed rule even apply to them? That and the unrestricted killing seem like the more obvious exemptions for them.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> New comic
> 
> I dunno, Tobi. "Will your answers make us kill you?" is a pretty good question.
> With that in mind I'd definitely wait until I've heard all their answers before voting.
> 
> Also, if it wasn't consistent with how it acted so far I'd think the Smile-Voice (the game_master) wanted Tobi and Jay-Jay to take the deal.
> I mean, I still suspect it, simply because it might want to keep the Smile-suit in the game- not the player necessarily, but having a "body" to hijack and act directly in-game seems like it is too useful a pawn/tool to discard this early in the experiment.
> Still, might just be part of the "very literal GM persona". Maybe.
> 
> ...


If she had worded it that way, sure. But she said 'are you worried that your answers will make us kill you?' which is a lot less incriminating.


EDIT: Okay, so what just happened? He didn't even finish not answering the question when he was executed, and he had 4 green votes at the time. Even if the cop voted Red, he still had a good chance of pulling through. So why couldn't he answer the question? It makes me think there was something else, some extra rule or condition that he had to keep secret.

Which if it was, I suppose we will be learning about soon!

----------


## Gez

Well, that was that.

----------


## Welf

> Hmm.. no thats not a foreshadowing to Cherryls power.
> Its a reference to the time where someones nightmare almost killed Noah, because he got stuck in it.


I think it was both. he meant it as a reference to what just happened, but it also describes what would happen again. Like when in It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia someone says "I won't do X" and then the title card says "The gang does X". I also think Noah's and Cherryls powers are somehow connected, or similar. 




> EDIT: Okay, so what just happened? He didn't even finish not answering the question when he was executed, and he had 4 green votes at the time. Even if the cop voted Red, he still had a good chance of pulling through. So why couldn't he answer the question? It makes me think there was something else, some extra rule or condition that he had to keep secret.


My theory: He had to keep everything about him secret, or the Smile Corporation does something to his daughter, or doesn't give her something as promised. So he rather choose death.
Personal note: poor guy. This is a really f-ed up game, and it seems an innocent person just got murdered.  :Small Frown:

----------


## Kantaki

> My theory: He had to keep everything about him secret, or the Smile Corporation does something to his daughter, or doesn't give her something as promised. So he rather choose death.
> Personal note: poor guy. This is a really f-ed up game, and it seems an innocent person just got murdered.


Sounds like it's pretty much this.
And I pretty much agree with Levin ( :Small Yuk: And hopefully I'll never have to say that again.  :Small Yuk: ). This is seriously messed up, even for a game like this.

I mean, set up challenges where death is the likelier outcome by far? Well, it is a Death Game, the contestants knew what they signed up for.
Players backstabbing each other? Part of the challenge.
Give a player loose conditions that make death inevitable?
Yeah, no. Might as well shoot the poor guy and be done with it.

----------


## Kornaki

Did we learn Infinity's secret when he died?

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> Did we learn Infinity's secret when he died?


Yeah, on this page:
http://neorice.com/hoh_2057

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Sounds like it's pretty much this.
> And I pretty much agree with Levin (And hopefully I'll never have to say that again. ). This is seriously messed up, even for a game like this.
> 
> I mean, set up challenges where death is the likelier outcome by far? Well, it is a Death Game, the contestants knew what they signed up for.
> Players backstabbing each other? Part of the challenge.
> Give a player loose conditions that make death inevitable?
> Yeah, no. Might as well shoot the poor guy and be done with it.


Depends on how it was set up. 'Smile Guy' very well might have known his rule before he got into the game. And that he would be used as a proxy for the Smile to talk. With an absolutely massive reward to be had, he might have thought it was worth the risk. But I bet he didn't know about the box of truth thing, so that was very much a gotcha moment that got him killed. 




> Did we learn Infinity's secret when he died?


We did. Infinite's secret was that someone had entered the game under false pretenses and that you get 5 mil for identifying them and another 5 mil for killing them.

----------


## Welf

> Sounds like it's pretty much this.
> And I pretty much agree with Levin (And hopefully I'll never have to say that again. ). This is seriously messed up, even for a game like this.


If Levine thinks something is messed up, it is messed up.
That said, I wonder if this demonstration was intended for players like Levine. The existence of secret rules and mutually exclusive rules make his way of pure self-interest less attractive. And something like this could have happened earlier too; Jay-Jay and the Paladin were linked, so if they had killed her early the Paladin would have died too. Maybe there are more of those rules out there. 

New chapter: One of the figures looks like Mr Smile, and one like one of those monsters from Tobi's first chapters. I guess the plot thickens.

----------


## lord_khaine

I dont think it was intended for Levin directly.
Because as such. It dont really affects his way directly. The risk of random unavoidable death affects everyone equally. 
Though i dont know. Can be they want to study the effect it have on the contestants.

----------


## Kornaki

This interrogation chamber is a death chamber. If you put people in it, they might die.  Red shirt guy knew that, and put someone in it anyway.  He shouldn't be shocked they died.  Sure, it wasn't the way he expected, but he chose to put Smile's life in peril by putting him in the chamber.

The real lesson is if you don't want people to die, don't put them in death chambers against their will.

----------


## lord_khaine

Hmm.. well.. the entire game is a death game.
You should not enter it unless you were ready to risk things.

Else.. i do have have mixed feelings about the situation.
Because at the same time. The voting chamber -seemed- to have fairly transparent rules.
And it was the first time a surprise rule unexpectedly killed somebody.

While at the same time. Someone had just been killed by another contestant.
So i can see why Mr Green though this was a way to get a few answers from the most mysterious contestant.

----------


## Kantaki

I guess Green figured enough players were unlikely to vote "kill" without sufficient reason that putting someone into the "no lies" room was worth the risk. 
The dearly departed Yellow's special rule turning this into a "heads you die, tails you die" situation was something no one could have know before hand. 
Well, Yellow did obviously , but he couldn't tell them without breaking his rule anyway. 

New comic

Well, they definitely send their best and brightest to accompany our heroes. :Small Big Grin: 
Kinda makes sense though.
They're there as ablative shields/lightning rods.
Might as well send the guys you can afford loosing.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> I guess Green figured enough players were unlikely to vote "kill" without sufficient reason that putting someone into the "no lies" room was worth the risk. 
> The dearly departed Yellow's special rule turning this into a "heads you die, tails you die" situation was something no one could have know before hand. 
> Well, Yellow did obviously , but he couldn't tell them without breaking his rule anyway.


I figure Green likely didn't care if Yellow died. Or perhaps to put it another way; his conscience would rest easy if he voted for Yellow to live. If he still ended up dying because everyone else voted for him to die, well that's not Green's fault, technically.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I figure Green likely didn't care if Yellow died. Or perhaps to put it another way; his conscience would rest easy if he voted for Yellow to live. If he still ended up dying because everyone else voted for him to die, well that's not Green's fault, technically.


He clearly did care enough to not wish Levin on the voting block that felt like the same as killing him.
But at the same time, he knew he would vote green. At the same time Tobi, the paladin and 3 were also guaranteed. 
Thats already 4 votes. For someone so insignificant i cant see anyone bothering to vote kill. 




> Well, they definitely send their best and brightest to accompany our heroes.
> Kinda makes sense though.
> They're there as ablative shields/lightning rods.
> Might as well send the guys you can afford loosing.


They do not impress with their competence. 
We can only hope there is a few royal guards stealthing around.
This group dont look impressive.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> He clearly did care enough to not wish Levin on the voting block that felt like the same as killing him.
> But at the same time, he knew he would vote green. At the same time Tobi, the paladin and 3 were also guaranteed. 
> Thats already 4 votes. For someone so insignificant i cant see anyone bothering to vote kill. 
> 
> 
> 
> They do not impress with their competence. 
> We can only hope there is a few royal guards stealthing around.
> This group dont look impressive.


Exactly. And if everyone did vote red (or yellow), then that's not his fault. Even though he did put Yellow into harm's way. Unless, of course, Green is the guy who is working for the Smile Foundation and thus knew Yellow's rule from the start. I do think Green is a suspect of that since he got every answer correct on the trivia quiz



Nah, someone in the Secret Police is just genre saavy. Bring along a couple of mooks so they can get picked off by monsters and let the team get closer.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## lord_khaine

Well i think the amount of harms way is neglible considering they got a murder to investigate. 
But i also think its a bit of a stretch to think Mr Green actively trued to murder that guy. I mean why?
He isnt really doing anything besides being there. And Levin also almost got all the answers correct.
It seems a lot more likely Mr Green is just a member of the Global Order like hinted.

Hmm.. also.. seriously.. 
They left Noah out of sight in a monster infested area?

----------


## Kantaki

:Small Eek: I think Nail might be scarier than the "so called Nightmare".  :Small Eek: 
Which makes me wonder what the actually dangerous ones will look like...

----------


## lord_khaine

Well.. the scary thing about the nightmares are that they are fairly stealthy sadistic killers with limited regard for their own life (sneaking around in a castle full of armed people for fun).
But we dont know how well the measure up against actual opposition. We saw Mr Kimble caught one.

Nail meanwhile.. well he certainly is a skilled combatant.
But its hard to say how skilled yet.

----------


## Kornaki

> Well.. the scary thing about the nightmares are that they are fairly stealthy sadistic killers with limited regard for their own life (sneaking around in a castle full of armed people for fun).
> But we dont know how well the measure up against actual opposition. We saw Mr Kimble caught one.
> 
> Nail meanwhile.. well he certainly is a skilled combatant.
> But its hard to say how skilled yet.


Didn't Kimble catch one after everyone else failed to affect it?

Also, this thing wasn't trying to kill Noah.  It was trying to scare him. The killing move comes later.

----------


## lord_khaine

Not everyone?
Just the kid whose ability was to freeze objects and spirit constructs. Unfortunately it wasnt either.
Mr Kimble is a serious combatant. Im not certain about any of the other kids except Gazz.

And well yeah it playing around with Noah is why Noah wasnt dead.
It being a worse combatant than Nail is why its dead.

----------


## Kantaki

> Not everyone?
> Just the kid whose ability was to freeze objects and spirit constructs. Unfortunately it wasnt either.


Weapons girl too. But yeah, in both cases the problem is that those things aren't made from spirit.
As Nail said, the two magic soldiers best suited to counter magic were useless against them. 

Which is kind of concerning, because... what are they then? Where does Chernyl's magic pull them from?
I guess they might be something like Jay Jay's buddy, just less controlled/friendly.
Not that that answers anything.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Gez

> Weapons girl too. But yeah, in both cases the problem is that those things aren't made from spirit.


Note that she only failed to damage it because she tried to use her spirit-cutter weapon, designed to have no physical effect at all. If she had used one of her normal weapons instead, it'd have worked much better.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Good advice Ciel, but unless you know a martial arts that mostly involves not moving and passively flopping not very helpful.
Maybe Noah should pick someone's brains about it.  :Small Amused: 

Besides, so far Noah's not-surviving skills aren't very impressive. Mostly because others get in the way or because he passively flops around and/or not-moves just right, but still, the boy is impressively bad at not-surviving.  :Small Amused:

----------


## lord_khaine

Noah's general survival skills are indeed abysmal.
I honestly think they are mostly supported by him being so harmless he gets ignored most times.

As for picking someones brain.
Problem is Noah has so far not learned anything directly from entering someone elses mind.

----------


## Gez

> Good advice Ciel, but unless you know a martial arts that mostly involves not moving and passively flopping not very helpful.
> Maybe Noah should pick someone's brains about it.


Sumo might be a sport Noah would like, the aim is to not be moved by your opponent.




When the three storylines converge and Noah gets to join Burk's team, please just put him in a backpack, carried by Burk à la Banjo-Kazooie.

----------


## lord_khaine

> When the three storylines converge and Noah gets to join Burk's team, please just put him in a backpack, carried by Burk à la Banjo-Kazooie.


Thankfully we know Burk would only relish such a challenge  :Small Big Grin: 

Though might not be needed. Might be Ciel will actually talk Noah into manifesting her physically.

----------


## TeChameleon

Huh.  Speaking of storylines merging, I'd be _very_ curious as to what, exactly, Tobi would see while Noah had Ciel hanging about.

And are the critters called 'nightmares' because they come out of the collective unconscious or whatever, or are they called that because that's what they give you?  Because they bear at least a passing resemblance to the spirit of pandemonium that Tobi saw, and it would be a pretty convincing explanation as to why various magic-y solutions aren't working against them, given that they seem to be the _source_ of human(-ish?) magic.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Huh. Speaking of storylines merging, I'd be very curious as to what, exactly, Tobi would see while Noah had Ciel hanging about.


Its almost possible to state for a fact, Tobi would just see Ciel hanging around. Since we know people with the sight can see Ciel.




> And are the critters called 'nightmares' because they come out of the collective unconscious or whatever, or are they called that because that's what they give you? Because they bear at least a passing resemblance to the spirit of pandemonium that Tobi saw, and it would be a pretty convincing explanation as to why various magic-y solutions aren't working against them, given that they seem to be the source of human(-ish?) magic.


Well Noah at least stated they were Cheryls nightmares given form. 
So far he is the person most informed on the subject. 

We were also told in comic by Noel, that the reason anti-magic tricks dont work on them is that they are physical constructs, not made of spirit matter.
Magic itself works just fine on them. Its anti-magic tools that fail.

----------


## Welf

> We were also told in comic by Noel, that the reason anti-magic tricks dont work on them is that they are physical constructs, not made of spirit matter.
> Magic itself works just fine on them. Its anti-magic tools that fail.


Seems at least some magic doesn't work. But Noah invented Magic Missile.

----------


## lord_khaine

I think its a little to early to draw that conclusion. 
Considering its Noah we are dealing with. And that its the first time he tries this move.

It can in fact easily be the purpose of this move -is- to be the equivalent of bouncing a tennis ball off on a bikers helmet.
If so it worked flawlessly  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Ibrinar

It collided with it and it noticed it, I think it isn't a case of not working but that Noah didn't effectively turn it into a weapon yet. Maybe he needs it to be spiky, or just have more force or maybe he can figure out how to make it explode on impact.

----------


## TeChameleon

... or he just needs to make it very pointy.

The kid with the glasses whose name I forget has some very interesting abilities.  Wonder what kind of explanation we'll get for them (or if there was one and I've already forgotten it >.>)

----------


## lord_khaine

There is an explanation for it.
The kid with the glasses (noel) is not a magic user.
He is an esper like the white-haired one-armed lady from burk's story.

He has the ability to see spirits. And as we see manipulate spirit.

----------


## Gez

> The kid with the glasses whose name I forget has some very interesting abilities.  Wonder what kind of explanation we'll get for them (or if there was one and I've already forgotten it >.>)


Noel. It's the Noah, Noel, and Nail show. We're still missing Nate, Nash, Nico, Nils, Nino, Noor, Nora, Nola, Nana, Navi, and Nell.

As for the explanation, well, he's an Esper. He cannot manifest spirit on his own, but he can manipulate spirit manifested by other people. That's why his role in the Malhart Kid Squad was to interfere with the Veda Kid Squad's magic, and why he can shape and direct Noah's spirit orbs. This capacity of espers to interfere with other people's magic is also why Evyle could just untransform the weaponized pig at the bandit lair.

----------


## Kornaki

As far as things like this go, you will follow their orders without question or be executed, but also they lead from the front, is not the worst structure for the secret police to have.

This guy is still an idiot for trying to hunt a monster he knows can't be killed by his gun.

----------


## Grim Portent

He can put them down for a few minutes at least, which is time to sort out blocking doors to keep the nightmare contained while they move on.

It's still stupid, because if he goes down the entire city might get blown up even if the mission is still going and has a good chance of success, while the ordinary guards and the police chief are honestly completely expendable for the purposes of the mission, while the secret police are both really important.

----------


## lord_khaine

Holy &%¤ thats some intense nightmares Cheryl has.
Hands up. Who do not think the dentist one is intense?

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

I love how subtle and understated that place looks. :Small Amused: 

Well, Chernyl's powers bring forth nightmares.
Makes sense they'd put her inside some kinda dark lord's castle.
Probably in the dungeons.

On the plus side, they can't miss the place, even if they loose the Radar.

----------


## Welf

Honestly, that whole "blow up the city and kill everyone _quickly_" plan seems the most reasonable idea so far. Much more human than getting the entire population tortured to death by a dentist of absolute evil, and way more likely to succeed than the mission. This looks like another one of these omens they asked about in the qustion round in Tobi's story.

----------


## lord_khaine

Im not certain what magic omen this fits with.
But yeah. The choice to just nuke Haven in case Cheryl's power was unleashed seems increasingly validated.

----------


## Grim Portent

Given the circumstanes they were in when the plan was devised it was definitely the best plan the empire could do at the time.

Now they have magic users, and whatever Nail is, they have a chance to salvage the situation and use the bomb as a plan B. Which is to say that a few hours of the city being ravaged by Chernyl's power then saved is strictly better than the whole place being reduced to a pile of irradiated rubble. Likely to succeed or not, the empire does have something of a moral duty to at least try to pursue the least damaging option presented to them, though I doubt they'd agree with that sentiment.


Also, does anyone else find Chernyl's name awfully reminiscent of Chernobyl? For a massively destructive being with no control over her powers and who the original contaiment plan for is a nuke, it seems a tad on the nose.

----------


## lord_khaine

Certainly wise enough to try and at least spend the attempt salvaging the situation. 
Or even evacuating the city then sending in the army with the new knowledge of the situation.
Its quite likely Cherryl is herself held captive by her nightmares.

Also slightly uncertain about who should be blamed most for this mess.
The Secret Police for not informing anyone else of the hidden danger.
Or the Army/Royal Guard for not telling anyone in the Secret Police they were going for Malhart.

----------


## Grim Portent

I'd say the army/royal guard, the secret police's job is to remain secret after all. More specifically the fault lies with Veda for being so quick to have  Malhart shot when she knew his power was keeping Chernyl subdued, and also for seeking out Chernyl in the first place.

Though I wonder why the SP don't have a liason officer of some sort from their higher ups involved in the imperial magic program, you'd think they'd have an agent following Veda around.

----------


## Kantaki

Are those Secret Police goons ranked by inverse execution happiness or something?
#3 would've shot first and asked permission later? 




> Also, does anyone else find Chernyl's name awfully reminiscent of Chernobyl? For a massively destructive being with no control over her powers and who the original contaiment plan for is a nuke, it seems a tad on the nose.


Yep. I think I called her name "in hindsight prophetic" earlier. Probably nosuch connotations in-universe. 
Yet. 
If this ever gets out "Chernyl" might be in the "Top3 least popular (girl's) names in the Empire"
As in "even consider using that name and we execute your entire extended family tree."

----------


## lord_khaine

But that would be confessing the Chernyl incident had taken place.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Kornaki

Think about how many buildings they plan to traverse this way. It seems like a terrible plan.

----------


## lord_khaine

With how many nightmares prowl the street, it seems better than the alternative.
Problem is they dont really have any meaningful alternatives.

Or well. The few thats slightly better is hindered by the secret police.
They could likely have build a more effective team.

Also. Just realized.
It seems Espers are not affected by black crystal.

----------


## Grim Portent

To be honest, other than having the royal guard come along, and possibly carry Noah in some sort of harness to compensate for his physical failings at times like this, I'm not sure what else they could do that wouldn't be bringing hordes of nightmares pouring in to investigate the noise they'd make with any other team.

----------


## lord_khaine

They could have brought a member of the royal guard. Who might have been fit enough to bring Noah along.
I honestly dont know what they are doing.

----------


## Grim Portent

Did a little archive binge, because I could swear that there were reasons given for the expedition being so small, the royal guard are apparently guarding the flanks of the expedition, keeping more monsters from closing in from the surrounding area in what ways they can. Which makes sense I suppose, they're following along the fringes in the shadows doing what they do best: quietly murdering things.

The army is doing... something. Fighting I suppose, blocking streets and trying to make safe areas for civilians or something and draw the attention of nightmares.

The local commander and his men are along to serve as extra muscle in the event it proves necessary.

The secret police themselves are only really along to contact their colleague in case things need to go boom. Which is better than them deciding to go boom without trying this plan, or them trying to work out when to send the city up in smoke without being able to see what's going on. I also get the impression that Number 1 is likely to get executed by his superiors even if the plan works, because he disobeyed a direct order by not immediately nuking the city, which is honestly shockingly decent of him.



Noel also advised they bring as small a team as possible on a previous page, since some of the more intelligent and powerful nightmares would be able to stop them easily if they got noticed. Given that he says some can kill with a look, and that Nail seems to be the only defence against that, there's probably a practical limitation to the size of any group depending on how Nail's powers work.


Really the big problem with the plan is Noah, his physical and psychological shortcomings are a major impediment to the plan even while his magic is important for it's success. Other than his ability to sense and hide spirit he's actually not very useful*, though having an esper around seems to mitigate his inability to help in fights because at least now he can make ammo for someone.

*Both are very good abilities in normal magical situtations mind you.

----------


## lord_khaine

Fair point. It can easily be that the royal guards are doing more good where they are. Even if its not visible that they are.

At the same time. it still seems like a oversight Noahs physical state had not been taken into account.
Basically anyone involved with the kids at all should know you cant expect more than walking from Noah.

And the problem is really, that you still desperatly need Noah for this mission. 
The guy who said he wasnt needed any longer is a moron.

To start with its only Noel who can actually point Cheryl out for them.
Since i believe their latest photo is some 10-15 year old.

Worse is their mission is to find a single person in a skyscraper sized construction, swarming with hostile stuff.
Thats hard when you have a radar to ping out the precise location. 
When all you have is a vague direction?.. 
(and this doesnt even get into the case of Nightmares Moving Cheryl)

----------


## Grim Portent

I'm not sure how much they can be expected to account for Noah, their original plan was just to walk through the streets, with the decision to take to the rooftops being made when they discovered that the nightmares can't die.

Deciding he's not essential is certainly arrogance on the part of the JSP, but then I get the impression that they don't really care if they succeed on this mission or not, as long as they manage to trigger the mushroom bomb in the event of it failing.


I do wonder if this is going to result in Noah getting properly separated from the group and running into Nail, then proceeding with him to find Chernyl.

----------


## Gez

> Deciding he's not essential is certainly arrogance on the part of the JSP


It's mostly Noah who made that decision for them, what with his stubborn insistence on being dead weight.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well. Arrogant. Plain stupid. One thing or the other. Noah and Noel is basically irreplaceable.
And that should be clear. It also seems like the Secret Police badly does want to succeed and become heroes.




> It's mostly Noah who made that decision for them, what with his stubborn insistence on being dead weight.


Dead weight is something you leave behind at base.

Noah is about the opposite. Since the mission is impossible without him.

Else he has as such not stubbornly insisted on anything.

----------


## Kantaki

I dunno, his avoidance on physical activity even in the face of danger is kind of impressive.
I mean, _I'm_ not exactly fit and, like Noah, I'd rather read a book than do any of that sports stuff. And I still think he compares unfavourably to a potted plant.

Not that I'd do any better, but with how he keeps getting in danger I'd at least try to improve*.

The funny part is that I actually like Noah's reluctance on the whole adventure thing compared to Tobi and Burk.
But at this point it kinda starts to get grating.

Not that I want Noah to turn into some generic action hero,  but at this point someone should make him train. 
If not his body then his power. 

*Well, actually I'd probably die.
If only because I'm unlucky.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> I dunno, his avoidance on physical activity even in the face of danger is kind of impressive.
> I mean, _I'm_ not exactly fit and, like Noah, I'd rather read a book than do any of that sports stuff. And I still think he compares unfavourably to a potted plant.
> 
> Not that I'd do any better, but with how he keeps getting in danger I'd at least try to improve*.
> 
> The funny part is that I actually like Noah's reluctance on the whole adventure thing compared to Tobi and Burk.
> But at this point it kinda starts to get grating.
> 
> Not that I want Noah to turn into some generic action hero,  but at this point someone should make him train. 
> ...


Think about it this way. The Empire is a militaristic state where everyone receives some level of combat training. Noah is so bad at physical stuff he got an actual medical exemption from gym class for both his and others safety. 

And his first arc was basically people forcing him to train his magic.

----------


## Gez

Merry Christmas Noah! You got a monster that needs to be fought using your favorite battle technique.

----------


## Kantaki

> Merry Christmas Noah! You got a monster that needs to be fought using your favorite battle technique.


That works until those flying monkey-mosquitoes reach him.
I don't think that trick will work on them too.

But yeah, nice for Noah to have a foe that matches his prefered strategy so well. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## lord_khaine

> Think about it this way. The Empire is a militaristic state where everyone receives some level of combat training. Noah is so bad at physical stuff he got an actual medical exemption from gym class for both his and others safety.


As i recall he litterally injured himself with a training sword a couple times.
And he has tripped repeatedly when trying to run. 

So yeah. Noah is basically the anti-Burk.

Also a fresh concerning though. 
With how real these things are. It seems quite possible killing Chernyl wont shut them off?

----------


## Welf

That looks very bad for Noah. I guess he now has no other choice than to ask for another favour from those mysterious beings he shouldn't ask any more favours.

----------


## lord_khaine

Problem is it does not look like he has any control over -when- he meet them.

----------


## -D-

> That looks very bad for Noah. I guess he now has no other choice than to ask for another favour from those mysterious beings he shouldn't ask any more favours.


Well, Noah is finally ded. One less narrative to worry about  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Kantaki

Ending the year by ending one of the protagonists certainly is a bold move. :Small Amused: 
So... does that mean the beginning of a new year brings the beginning of a new story-line? :Small Tongue: 

Or is it Burk/Tobi-time?  :Small Cool:

----------


## lord_khaine

Funny enough. This might be close to the ideal situation for Nail.

All the dead weight wandered off leaving the single mission critical piece of equipment behind.
The radar you need to find Cheryl.

----------


## -D-

Yep. That's what happens.

Nail, Noel and Noah are on adventure.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well if you can also get your hands on Noel its even better.
The Secret police were double morons for giving up on the Noel+Noah set bonus.
Its massive.

----------


## Ismaren

I really love it!

----------


## Gez

Nail is the savior Noah needs, and deserves.

----------


## lord_khaine

He really is. It is a good point about Noah being whiny.
And whats overlooked here, is what kind of superhuman strengh Nail posses.
That gasp is what 10-12 meter? Noah Should still weight some odd 30-40 kg, scrawny kid as he is?
Its like throwing a sack of potatoes. Getting it past 3-4 meter is a impressive feat, that grows exponentially more hard.

----------


## Welf

That was nice by the military commander. I hope he doesn't get killed in the next few pages.

----------


## Gez

> That was nice by the military commander. I hope he doesn't get killed in the next few pages.


Well he is the most supportive of the irrelevant characters* so he's most probably doomed. (As anecdotal evidence, I also submit that I don't see him on the incentive spritesheet.)


* The relevant characters in this scene being those who have a four-letter name starting with "N".

----------


## TeChameleon

I find myself oddly fond of Noah, and relate to him on... probably more levels than I should, despite being rather older than him.

That being said, he really should try to gain at least enough physical fitness to survive the stupid situations he keeps getting into- I think it was just combat training that he was terrifyingly inept at, not more generalized fitness, at least if I'm remembering correctly.

As a thought, I wonder if Nail's abilities are similar to Burk's at all?  Granted, the only reason to think that is because they both fall under the 'nobody has any freaking clue what they are or how they can do what they do', but it'd be interesting if Burk wasn't as unique as he seemed at first.

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> Well he is the most supportive of the irrelevant characters* so he's most probably doomed. (As anecdotal evidence, I also submit that I don't see him on the incentive spritesheet.)
> 
> 
> * The relevant characters in this scene being those who have a four-letter name starting with "N".


There's a huge randomness factor to the incentive and who I ended up including, it doesn't hold much predictive value.
A lot of chars made it in because they happened to be on one of the sheets I opened to fill it.

----------


## Kornaki

> There's a huge randomness factor to the incentive and who I ended up including, it doesn't hold much predictive value.
> A lot of chars made it in because they happened to be on one of the sheets I opened to fill it.


And yet, that's not a no lol

----------


## Grim Portent

I'm thinking the commander might well live, even alive he's likely to only complicate things further for the magical kids in one way or another.

He can't voice public support for the project even if this operation works, because it is still a state secret and the narrative about how Chernyl's power got unleashed is going to be tightly controlled. Of course he might wind up branded as the hero of the city because he's the only person directly involved who's existence is public knowledge, which just means what he says will be even more tightly controlled.

If he voices private support then some of his peers, or those in other branches of authority might worry that the mages are trying to subvert parts of the Empire's armed forces and gain sympathisers. Considering the general impression is that a lot of the people in power want to shut down the project for various reasons this could be bad even if it raises Veda and the project's political sway at the same time.

If he keeps his mouth shut that leaves the only advocates without the Veda Project with field experience with the mages as the JSP, and they don't seem particularly inclined to share their opinions be they good or bad.


I do hope he lives, which might be colouring my thoughts, he seems to be a genuinely decent person compared to his superiors. He at least seems to view the magic kids as people rather than dangerous assets to be monitored.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> I find myself oddly fond of Noah, and relate to him on... probably more levels than I should, despite being rather older than him.
> 
> That being said, he really should try to gain at least enough physical fitness to survive the stupid situations he keeps getting into- I think it was just combat training that he was terrifyingly inept at, not more generalized fitness, at least if I'm remembering correctly.
> 
> As a thought, I wonder if Nail's abilities are similar to Burk's at all?  Granted, the only reason to think that is because they both fall under the 'nobody has any freaking clue what they are or how they can do what they do', but it'd be interesting if Burk wasn't as unique as he seemed at first.


Well take Noah's extreme physical ineptness (he can't run five feet without tripping) and then give him a sword. That sounds pretty terrifying to me. 


Anyways I've got a new quote to use for D&D one day: "How can you collect my bounty when there's no way you'll beat me?"

----------


## Kantaki

> Anyways I've got a new quote to use for D&D one day: "How can you collect my bounty when there's no way you'll beat me?"


Burk got so many great comments in this chapter.
But this is particularly quotable, yes.  :Small Cool: 

Kinda arrogant, but he can back it up after all.

"Just because something can hit me doesn't mean it's somehow my weakness" is a nice one too.  :Small Amused: 

But really, Burk'd make a terrifying villain for a different story/point of view.

----------


## Grim Portent

Pudu's little speech gave me really strong Dragonball Z vibes, and I frankly loved that entire 'fight.'

----------


## -D-

I do like that this chapter proved what should be obvious from the word go. Burk doesn't use spirit.

He's essentially Goku. But with two more braincells.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> I do like that this chapter proved what should be obvious from the word go. Burk doesn't use spirit.
> 
> He's essentially Goku. But with two more braincells.


How does that make him Goku? Goku has a bunch of special techniques, and uses ki all the time. In fact, I can't think of anything unusual about Goku's fighting style beyond how powerful he is.

----------


## Gez

Just for convenience, new chapter starts here.

I liked how it was a spirit expodump disguised as a Burk fight!  :Small Wink: 

Plot progression wise: Pablo's OPSEC is ruined, and the talking cat sideplot may get some actual progress.

----------


## TeChameleon

... I just realized.

Burk isn't Goku.

Burk is the Tick.  Dropped into an almost Sanderson-esque hard-magic (and I mean that as an unironic compliment- pretty sure that even his detractors concede that Brandon Sanderson does a very good magic system) high fantasy universe, but still retaining a great deal of essential Tick-ness.

Even if that's not true, it still was a very fun action-exposition chapter.

----------


## -D-

Eh. Tick doesn't have the need to fight as Goku does. In that respect he's Goku like.

Although the analogy isn't that good either way.

----------


## lord_khaine

Oh god.. last chapter had me howling with laughter.
But as predicted from the Goldman fight.
Burks ability is simply to nulify spirit.

----------


## Gez

Hop onboard today's drop. Choo-choo!

----------


## Kornaki

I'm a little confused by the egg thing.

*Spoiler*
Show

 the paladin found that green egg really fast.  Did they also see another train of people that had a chance to hide it? I feel like my takeaway is that the red egg is probably not for another team, and instead existed only to poke the beast person in the eye.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> I'm a little confused by the egg thing.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
>  the paladin found that green egg really fast.  Did they also see another train of people that had a chance to hide it? I feel like my takeaway is that the red egg is probably not for another team, and instead existed only to poke the beast person in the eye.


It could be possible that the Paladin realized that the egg was near the other trains and just went to their stations straight away. 


Anyways, I love that Tobi's situation is so freaking weird, even to a bunch of Largits. I was half expecting one of them to tell Tobi that she could have gotten a passport for a couple hundred credits. 


Also Maria, Fox may have tried to kill Tobi, but she has also been polite and hasn't openly advocated killing other people. Also she's expressed remorse for the attempted betrayal in the first place. It's a low bar to clear, but she does clear it. 


Speaking of teams though, isn't this team kinda stacked? Tobi, Fox, Maria and Shana? Two Cleaners and a Paladin? They should stomp.

----------


## Gez

> Speaking of teams though, isn't this team kinda stacked? Tobi, Fox, Maria and Shana? Two Cleaners and a Paladin? They should stomp.


I'm sure you can make functional teams with the rest. There's Levin, Three, Mr. Green, and Jay-Jay for competence, and Housten and Thugboy for muscle.

----------


## lord_khaine

What people should perhaps have noticed. Is that there is only a single train track.
All the trains take a seperate route. The wrong colored eggs are a trick of some sort.

Else.. thats some revelation. Now we know who the person with the licence to kill is.
As well as why Mr Green is there.




> Speaking of teams though, isn't this team kinda stacked? Tobi, Fox, Maria and Shana? Two Cleaners and a Paladin? They should stomp.


They didnt do much stomping at the quiz :P
It purely depends on the contest.

----------


## Gez

Okay, so this team is Three, Housten, and Mr. Green which we can now call Ezra Glint. That means the last team is Levin, Jay-Jay, Thugboy, and Bindi.

Also, convenient link to start of chapter.


The black water Housten stepped in is probably related to black crystal creation. Three identified it as deadly. Who knows what shoenanigans await us?


If I interpret the banner's color scheme correctly, the next two chapter drops are back to Burk's team. And then we're back to Noah for regular updates. The third passengers chapter will be for much later, then.

----------


## Kornaki

*Spoiler*
Show

 there's also the chance that the train is busted because it already went through whatever the first group did.  These don't have to be happening at the same time

----------


## lord_khaine

Thats a good point. It did say this was 3 hours after they woke up.

----------


## Gez

> Thats a good point. It did say this was 3 hours after they woke up.


No, it's three hours after Three took the bag off.

Of course, Three is not affected by the knock-out gas, so they put a bag on his head and lead him to wherever. While the others are carried unconscious. They would have gone exploring around if they had to wait for three hours before the train came... So the three hours were mostly spent with them sleeping and Three waiting patiently.

----------


## lord_khaine

.. yeah.. and are you SERIOUSLY going to claim there will be a meaningful difference between those two numbers?

----------


## Forum Explorer

> .. yeah.. and are you SERIOUSLY going to claim there will be a meaningful difference between those two numbers?


Well we don't know how long Tobi and her team were unconscious. If it was also three hours than both teams are working at the same time. 


Anyways, I'm not sure how much I buy Ezra Glint's story. He seems very eager to make money and participate in the games so far. But I suppose you could look at it as making the best of a bad situation.

----------


## Gez

Point is that this gives us an estimate for how long the knock-out gas works. Just shy of three hours, give or take a few seconds depending on people. Tobi took longer than the rest of her team; perhaps because she's so small.)




> Anyways, I'm not sure how much I buy Ezra Glint's story. He seems very eager to make money and participate in the games so far. But I suppose you could look at it as making the best of a bad situation.


If you are kind of on the run from a very powerful government, you may need a lot of money to bribe your way out of their reach.


Also, he's a scientist, and what self-respecting renegade scientist wouldn't want their own secret volcano island base? Those don't come cheap.

----------


## lord_khaine

He isnt on the run yet. That was the whole deal with the exchange with the Secret Agent.
Its a secret he leaked that info. And likely what he is blackmailed with.

----------


## Gez

> He isnt on the run yet.


Yes, _yet_.

It never hurts to be prepared.


Anyway, today's chapter drop starts here. It's about Pablo. And mysterious strangers, one of whom is masked. I guess tomorrow's drop will be about Piper.

----------


## Forum Explorer

...Damn he's right. That's a big hat. Pablo might be in trouble here.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Gez

Last chapter drop starts here and apparently ends here also. Indeed a short chapter.

----------


## lord_khaine

It seems its still in the process of being dropped?

----------


## Gez

Yeah, it's fixed now.

Piper is objectively a terrible person, and I pity the poor people who will be her feudal subjects. I'm sure if she went at it with a WWPD approach ("What Would Pablo Do"), she'd have already succeeded. Instead she'll waste her time fighting her uncle into a stalemate.

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> It seems its still in the process of being dropped?





> Yeah, it's fixed now.
> 
> Piper is objectively a terrible person, and I pity the poor people who will be her feudal subjects. I'm sure if she went at it with a WWPD approach ("What Would Pablo Do"), she'd have already succeeded. Instead she'll waste her time fighting her uncle into a stalemate.



There was one page missing in the online buffer that I forgot to fix, so the dropping didn't go as smoothly as usual. Small mistake on my part.

----------


## -D-

> Yeah, it's fixed now.
> 
> Piper is objectively a terrible person, and I pity the poor people who will be her feudal subjects.


While Piper is a firebrand and bad ruler, you're wrong about the rest. The barony is in the know.

Going diplomatically would result in Piper in a dungeon, immediately.

----------


## Grim Portent

Indeed, the baron's forces while likely not entirely corrupt in themselves, are the soldiers of a man who is clearly in bed with the enemy to some extent. They are at best obstacles with orders to prevent her from sending a message to the Iron Judge and attempt to disarm her, at worst they are somewhat aware of or part of the Heroland conspiracy, a conspiracy she knows involves murders. Either case is sufficient grounds for her to incinerate any that get in her way, though she does find it more entertaining than I think a decent person would.

She is also still quite young as I recall. Mid to late teens or thereabouts? So what we've seen of her is not necessarily indictive of how she would treat her subjects in future.

----------


## Gez

> While Piper is a firebrand and bad ruler, you're wrong about the rest. The barony is in the know.


Do they know that Sabrina is Piper?

Does Piper need to tell exactly why she wants to use the lighthouse?

----------


## lord_khaine

Trying to take Piper's staff is absolutely a MASSIVE red flag.
Honestly. With her being basically a noble its likely also a serious crime. 
Like trying to take the gun from a policeman only worse ?

Him blocking access to the lighthouse is equally so.
Like.. Piper is basically "someone posted a bounty on my head for dead or alive, i want to call my uncle the Iron Judge"

And this guy says no? Like if the situation is a misunderstanding he can explain to the Iron Judge.
Who are remarkable levelheaded. But instead he blocks her access to the light house.

Piper is generally a bad person with entitled attitude.
But she is in the right here.

----------


## -D-

> Do they know that Sabrina is Piper?
> 
> Does Piper need to tell exactly why she wants to use the lighthouse?


Does it matter?

The soldiers asked Piper for her staff, the thing that's enchanted with the blood of Mage King and the source of her power.

It's akin to asking Supermen to basically wear a necklace of Kryptonium while pretending to be friendly.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Does it matter?
> 
> The soldiers asked Piper for her staff, the thing that's enchanted with the blood of Mage King and the source of her power.
> 
> It's akin to asking Supermen to basically wear a necklace of Kryptonium while pretending to be friendly.


More like asking Green Lantern for his ring.

----------


## Gez

> Does it matter?
> 
> The soldiers asked Piper for her staff, the thing that's enchanted with the blood of Mage King and the source of her power.
> 
> It's akin to asking Supermen to basically wear a necklace of Kryptonium while pretending to be friendly.


And I'm sure that attempting to incinerate the guards was the only imaginable way to reject this demand.

----------


## lord_khaine

> More like asking Green Lantern for his ring.


Basically the same as trying to steal Green Lanterns ring.




> And I'm sure that attempting to incinerate the guards was the only imaginable way to reject this demand.


The Guard tried to TAKE the staff.
(ref http://www.neorice.com/hoh_2335) 

Without it Piper is just a small girl. Its basically the same as assulting her. 
In a situation where someone already put a price on her head. And where she suspect her Uncle of being scetchy.

So yeah. Basically a quick fire spell was the only way for her to defend herself.
If anything she showed remarkable restraint in letting the moron keep his head - hair.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> And I'm sure that attempting to incinerate the guards was the only imaginable way to reject this demand.


Sure there were other ways to handle it. But none better. Even if the uncle hadn't been part of the conspiracy, trying to take the staff is treason. Getting your hair burnt off is a _mild_ punishment for that crime, and should hopefully warn others to not even try it.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Sure there were other ways to handle it. But none better. Even if the uncle hadn't been part of the conspiracy, trying to take the staff is treason. Getting your hair burnt off is a mild punishment for that crime, and should hopefully warn others to not even try it.


Well no -good- ways to handle it. 

Basically a subordinate tries to handcuff her (stealing the staff is about that for Piper). 
So seems a bit silly to think politely instructing the person not to do so would lead to anything but getting captured.

----------


## Kantaki

I mean, considering the chapter started with "the castle was on fire and it was not [Piper's] fault", she _might've_ overreacted just a tad, but the general course of action isn't exactly wrong.

Meanwhile on Noah's arc, those are probably friendly creeply thin and tall monsters who make shadows fall towards the light. Entirely harmless.
Just look at them smile. :Small Amused:

----------


## Gez

> So yeah. Basically a quick fire spell was the only way for her to defend herself.
> If anything she showed remarkable restraint in letting the moron keep his head - hair.


http://www.neorice.com/hoh_2334

Pictured: remarkable restraint.

----------


## -D-

> http://www.neorice.com/hoh_2334
> 
> Pictured: remarkable restraint.


She's the hot head fire wielding sidekick. Do you expect her not to set stuff on fire?

----------


## Gez

http://www.neorice.com/hoh_2337
Here you see another mistake she made.

First, take a look at the last two panels. That's not her mistake, it's just to establish some facts. Reichfelt betrays he knows about Piper's entourage, and that makes Piper notice he wasn't supposed to know that by himself, proving that he's complicit in the conspiracy. Because Piper hadn't told him about Pablo and Burk before.

Now that this is covered, move back to the first two panels. Reichfelt talks about "spreading unfounded nonsense" and this doesn't cause the reaction that happens in the last two panels. Therefore, Piper _has_ told him before about the content of the message she wanted to send through the lighthouse. Despite knowing that her cousin may have been in on the conspiracy.

From that we can basically reconstruct what happened: Piper arrives, announces she wants to use the lighthouse, she's asked why, she doesn't make up an innocuous-looking lie as the reason but instead reveals that She Knows Too Much, Reichfelt gives the order to try to grab her staff, and as a result Piper must now _BURN EVERYTHING_, which was presumably her intent in the first place.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Pictured: remarkable restraint.


Yes. Thank you for supporting my point. 




> Here you see another mistake she made.
> 
> First, take a look at the last two panels. That's not her mistake, it's just to establish some facts. Reichfelt betrays he knows about Piper's entourage, and that makes Piper notice he wasn't supposed to know that by himself, proving that he's complicit in the conspiracy. Because Piper hadn't told him about Pablo and Burk before.
> 
> Now that this is covered, move back to the first two panels. Reichfelt talks about "spreading unfounded nonsense" and this doesn't cause the reaction that happens in the last two panels. Therefore, Piper has told him before about the content of the message she wanted to send through the lighthouse. Despite knowing that her cousin may have been in on the conspiracy.
> 
> From that we can basically reconstruct what happened: Piper arrives, announces she wants to use the lighthouse, she's asked why, she doesn't make up an innocuous-looking lie as the reason but instead reveals that She Knows Too Much, Reichfelt gives the order to try to grab her staff, and as a result Piper must now BURN EVERYTHING, which was presumably her intent in the first place.


Seriously. Your reaching this far now?
What other matters of precognition or hindsigt do you want Piper to have done, now people disagreed with your claim she should have politely protested when attacked.
Instead of defending herself?

For a start some jerks put a deadly force bounty on her head. She has an extremely valid reason to be angry.
And it seems unlikely she would have been allowed to use the Lighthouse anyway, if Reichfelt was in the conspiracy. At least this way she got him to reveal himself.
Instead of getting ambushed at closer range.

----------


## Gez

> Yes. Thank you for supporting my point.


Continuing to shoot at people who are fleeing from you while taunting them is indeed a remarkable form of restraint.




> Seriously. Your reaching this far now?
> What other matters of precognition or hindsigt do you want Piper to have done, now people disagreed with your claim she should have politely protested when attacked.


It's more that she's lacking in postcognition and foresight.

She knew Reichfelt was on the list of suspects.
http://neorice.com/hoh_1266

She knew also they had to lie about their motives, hence the whole Sabrina persona and pretending to be tourists.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> http://www.neorice.com/hoh_2337
> Here you see another mistake she made.
> 
> First, take a look at the last two panels. That's not her mistake, it's just to establish some facts. Reichfelt betrays he knows about Piper's entourage, and that makes Piper notice he wasn't supposed to know that by himself, proving that he's complicit in the conspiracy. Because Piper hadn't told him about Pablo and Burk before.
> 
> Now that this is covered, move back to the first two panels. *Reichfelt talks about "spreading unfounded nonsense" and this doesn't cause the reaction that happens in the last two panels.* Therefore, Piper _has_ told him before about the content of the message she wanted to send through the lighthouse. Despite knowing that her cousin may have been in on the conspiracy.
> 
> From that we can basically reconstruct what happened: Piper arrives, announces she wants to use the lighthouse, she's asked why, she doesn't make up an innocuous-looking lie as the reason but instead reveals that She Knows Too Much, Reichfelt gives the order to try to grab her staff, and as a result Piper must now _BURN EVERYTHING_, which was presumably her intent in the first place.


Did she? Or did she just not catch it immediately? Or jump on that statement because that statement isn't blatantly obvious that he's criminal. For all we know, Piper simply asked to use the Lighthouse.

----------


## Kornaki

Is hoh slow to load for everyone else also the last couple days?

----------


## Welf

The JSP leader seems a bit trigger happy. He isn't entirely wrong for asking, but it's the wrong moment.

----------


## Kornaki

I feel like the right question to ask right now is why the hell did Noah think the sewers were safer than the rest of the city.

----------


## -D-

> I feel like the right question to ask right now is why the hell did Noah think the sewers were safer than the rest of the city.


Noah? Noel said mists are certain death. Noah weighted his options before legs charged him.

Also see latest chapter. Spiders are attracted by loud sounds. Like that gun JSP uses.

----------


## Kornaki

> Noah? Noel said mists are certain death. Noah weighted his options before legs charged him.
> 
> Also see latest chapter. Spiders are attracted by loud sounds. Like that gun JSP uses.


https://www.neorice.com/hoh_2247

"It might not sound like the most obvious suggestion but these nightmares seem to spawn near people... there's barely anyone down there"

Does that sound like an accurate description of the density of monsters they've encountered?

----------


## -D-

> https://www.neorice.com/hoh_2247
> 
> Does that sound like an accurate description of the density of monsters they've encountered?


Hmm. Touche.

Eh, they spawn near people, and above is murder fog + 100 monsters.

Below is a smidge better.

----------


## Kornaki

These are clearly the fake people that noel was talking about earlier, right?

----------


## Kantaki

> These are clearly the fake people that noel was talking about earlier, right?


They _do_ kind of look off, yes.
Besides, seeing that they were explicitly mentioned they will probably show up sooner or later.

----------


## lord_khaine

pretty unlikely Noel would not be able to spot fake people.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> pretty unlikely Noel would not be able to spot fake people.


Why would he be? He couldn't tell anything was off with the cat.

----------


## Kantaki

Okay, so at least good old Theo is probably not a nightmare, being a known criminal and all that.
Jury's still out on the rest of the crowd. :Small Amused: 

Also, congratulations to getting named.
Now his death will actually mean something to the readers.  :Elan:  :Small Tongue:

----------


## lord_khaine

> Why would he be? He couldn't tell anything was off with the cat.


You mean he could tell something was likely off with the cat. 
And its a -lot- easier to make a believeable fake cat than a believeable fake person.

----------


## TeChameleon

Why on Earth is Noel smirking non-stop on this page?  What is he finding so amusing?

Also, I love how Noah seems to have BSOD'd (again).  Then again, with his abilities (that he refuses to use) he could potentially _seriously_ weaponise his existential angst.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> You mean he could tell something was likely off with the cat. 
> And its a -lot- easier to make a believeable fake cat than a believeable fake person.


No he couldn't

Wait, scratch that. I thought you were talking about Noah, not Noel (the Esper). Friggin similar names.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Why on Earth is Noel smirking non-stop on this page? What is he finding so amusing?


Who knows? perhaps he is into dark humor?
And his worst enemy did screw up so badly they might have to nuke a town. 
(seriously. If not for plot armor i would personally have done so and called it a mercy). 




> Also, I love how Noah seems to have BSOD'd (again). Then again, with his abilities (that he refuses to use) he could potentially seriously weaponise his existential angst.


Or die a messy death. We still lack evidence Noah is able to affect anything inside someone's headspace.
So far it seems he is a visitor.

----------


## Kornaki

https://www.neorice.com/hoh_2358

Just noticed the shadow on the left in the last panel. Are the monsters already in the room?

----------


## Gez

> Why on Earth is Noel smirking non-stop on this page?  What is he finding so amusing?


The fact that he is in a sprite comic and that therefore he can only change expression through investment in a new custom-modified sprite is something he finds darkly humorous.

----------


## TeChameleon

... a dean that recognizes a random student on sight?  Now I _know_ this is a fantasy.

----------


## Welf

Okay, the JSP is done being "nice".

So are they correct? Noel did send them (and Nail) towards the monsters and later said they were attracted to sound, causing his group to abandon the JSP.
Also it seems Nail is dead? Dead as a doornail?

----------


## Grim Portent

I think that whatever Nail is is harder to kill than most humans, so even if he's wounded I doubt he's down for the count.

As for the JSP, yeah this is what happens when you give people the right to summarily execute people. It's generally speaking a bad thing to give anyone that kind of power. Then again, this is the group that had orders to nuke the city without hesitation so on a rather grim level they are still playing nice. Disturbing thought.

----------


## lord_khaine

I find it not entirely impossible Nail is one of the sentient automaton we heard off earlier.
His secrecy and lack of spirit at least hint towards it.




> ... a dean that recognizes a random student on sight? Now I know this is a fantasy.


Not a random student. As he said one of his star pupils.

Also yeah. Increasingly shows the JSP is one of the biggest hindrances towards this mission.

----------


## Ibrinar

Sadly they also have the nuke. Though hmm do they have a way to phone home during the mission? I forgot. If not someone could just kill these two off.

----------


## Grim Portent

> Sadly they also have the nuke. Though hmm do they have a way to phone home during the mission? I forgot. If not someone could just kill these two off.


They mentioned radioing number 3 to set off the nuke if the mission goes pear shaped, so I'd assume they have a hand held radio of some sort.

Course the nuke needing a trigger command is a flaw in their plan, if 1 and 2 get killed before they can call then the nuke is left out of play unless 3 decides to use it on their own. A better method would be periodic check ins to prevent the nuking, but then that would jeopardise the stealth aspects of the mission.

In any case, I imagine the JSP will get killed at some point, which will then leave the nuke as a floating problem because there's no longer a way to tell number 3 that Cheryl is about to be neutralised if he winds up in a situation where he's going to die anyway.

----------


## lord_khaine

I feel pretty justified in earlier comments about the JSP being the biggest liability on this mission xD

Hopefully one of the nightmares will sooner or later put them out of our misery.

----------


## Welf

> Hopefully one of the nightmares will sooner or later put them out of our misery.


Well....

Those chapters really put emphasise on the whole nightmare experience.  :Small Eek:

----------


## Kantaki

Well, that was unexpected.
This specific outcome that is.
Mr. "I'm not feeling so good, Mr. Secret Police" being (the container/vector for) a nightmare?
Predictable. We are in the middle of a horror story after all. Those survivors were always going to be a problem.
But the exploding into a entrails-tentacle-worm-abomination-thingy :Small Eek:  (Scientific term. :Small Tongue: )?
Can't say I saw that coming. Honestly expected some kind of zombie mutation deal.

----------


## TeChameleon

Meh.  That's the trouble with 'secret police'... they seem to by their very nature end up with paranoid idiots in positions of absolute authority.  Good riddance to bad rubbish.

... feel a little bad for the head-'splodey-worm-monster guy, though.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Meh.  That's the trouble with 'secret police'... they seem to by their very nature end up with paranoid idiots in positions of absolute authority.  Good riddance to bad rubbish.
> 
> ... feel a little bad for the head-'splodey-worm-monster guy, though.


Well there is still one left. And I'm not counting #2 out yet either. 

The question is, was he a monster guy, or a guy infected with a worm monster?

----------


## Grim Portent

I think Two is going to be mortally wounded if not outright dead. Feels about the right time.

Commander seems to want Noah and Noel to run with the civilians, presumably to continue pursuing their goal.

Good on him really, for the tool of an authoritarian police state he's not so bad. He at least has some empathy.

----------


## Welf

I guess this was a crappy day for Number 2. And Halmer probably saved the day by telling Theodore about Noah and Noel's abilities. So he'll die.

----------


## Grim Portent

Hmm, I have a suspicion that number 2 is dead. Just a vague idea, mostly based on how gribbly those worms are, nothing else to support it really.

----------


## Forum Explorer

I got to say, the Empire and it's people is actually really good at this whole 'horror genre' thing.

----------


## Kantaki

> I got to say, the Empire and it's people is actually really good at this whole 'horror genre' thing.


Not really. They're doing it wrong.
They were supposed to ignore/dismiss those suspicions and then be all surprised when the dying starts.
You know, like the Secret Police.  :Small Amused: 
...
Wait. You meant _surviving_ it, didn't you?
Then yes, the smuggler seems to have the right idea. :Small Tongue: 

Also, Noah's great here. "_Don't underestimate my onboard AI observational ability._  :Small Big Grin: 
Reminds me of Rimuru and his GREAT SAGE skill from _That Time I was reborn as a Slime..._ 
"I totally realized that on my own. It definitely wasn't my skill/magic power telling me."  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## lord_khaine

The biggest question is where the heck Noel is. 
He slipped away earlier. Hopefully he isnt to far away.
Him and Noah is a lot more effective together.

And nuking the city increasingly looks less like a extreme option..

----------


## Welf

This seems to be the worst monster so far. 

*Spoiler*
Show

On a side note: Don't have daughters, that's a death sentence. The Smile guy in Toby's story line also had a daughter.

----------


## Grim Portent

Good show on Noah's part, he's actually learning to use Spirit properly, even if his coordination needs work.

----------


## Ibrinar

Yeah. And he is separated making me more hopeful that this arc ends with him not being under the direct control of a horrible government anymore.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Yeah. And he is separated making me more hopeful that this arc ends with him not being under the direct control of a horrible government anymore.


I doubt that. My money is on him becoming a valued and respected member of the military and proving the worth of the program. 

Also we've yet to see a government that doesn't suck horribly. Not counting Tobi's home village as that seems to be from a different world.

----------


## TeChameleon

And even Tobi's home village had some hints that not everything was entirely kosher in the upper echelons, although they seemed to have better intentions than most of the outer-world governments.

----------


## Kantaki

"Are you not the least useless you've ever been?" :Small Big Grin: 
You know things are bad when the voice in your head gives you a pep talk.
You know they're well and truly f-word-ed if that's the best tey come up with.  :Small Amused:

----------


## TeChameleon

Well, Ciel has never been one for sugarcoating.  Or anything less than skull-shattering bluntness, really.

And Noah's learning real quick.  He's always been my favourite of the three protags (as entertaining as Burk can be), and he's got some incredible potential.  He may not have the ability to bring much force into play, but with his sensory abilities, he may not _need_ to; if you can reliably find and hit the weakest points on your enemies, then you can bring them down without being a juggernaut like Burk or a... hobbit-elf-catperson-ninja-thingy?.. like Tobi.

But we'll have to see.  I'm still withholding judgement as to whether Ciel is a manifestation of Noah's subconscious or one of those weird chaos-spirit things bonded to him; if it's his subconscious, the poor kid's got issues.  And if it's a weird spirit thing, then... yeah.  He's got different, and probably rather more dangerous issues.

----------


## -D-

I wish to congratulate Number One for being #1. Levin despite his best effort, was #2. Still, he has the best chance to win #1 spot next April. 
 :Small Big Grin: 

These were fair and unbiased poll results. Do not question the date when they were made  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## lord_khaine

Well cant doubt what Number One says, as that gets you executed xD

edit.
But yeah.. i think perhaps thats the right attitude to have towards Number One.
Not like its not deserved. He has done more to sabotage the mission than anyone else.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic 

Oh well, there's some hope Mr. "Most popular character" gets eaten by a spider. Or otherwise removed from the ranking. :Small Amused: 
Unfortunately I doubt he'd go down alone and Noah and Noel still need those meatshields.

----------


## Welf

> Unfortunately I doubt he'd go down alone and Noah and Noel still need those meatshields.


You certainly were right about that. But not sure if that was the last that we've seen of No. 1

----------


## Grim Portent

Well that isn't very handy. Chernyl certainly has a lot of nightmares running around.

Nice to see what Noel can do to the more magical monsters as well. I wonder if espers have limits to how much they can do their spirit manipulation or if it's basically a complete counter to magic that's always on tap?



I do hope number 1 is at the very least badly injured if he shows up again. I don't expect secret police to be good people, but he's a good stretch past being evil to being paranoid and stupid about it. Still he only has a knife now, so even if he does come back he'd be less dangerous.

Was a bit foolish of them not to finish him off while he was unarmed and grappling with Barney, but I guess the spiders are more of a concern.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

I guess "brave Sir Robin" _is_ a descent strategy for dealing with many of those nightmares.

So many grabby arms though...  :Small Eek: 
Is this all one monster or some kind of swarm?
Also, is it made from its victims('s arms)?
Oh well, there's still enough meatshields left we might find out.

----------


## Gez

> New comic
> 
> I guess "brave Sir Robin" _is_ a descent strategy for dealing with many of those nightmares.


Not just a decent strategy, but probably the only real strategy. They're all just obstacles and the more you interact with them, the more of them get spawned nearby. There's a theoretically infinite amount of them because every nightmare can exist in several copies -- like the tall grinners, the sw'arm, the heart spiders, etc. --so it's not like killing one nightmare actually gets you rid of it for good.

The only strategy here is to reach Chernyl and do whatever it takes to dispel all the nightmares at once.

----------


## lord_khaine

This really is the most horrible power we have seen so far. 
And by far the most powerful one as well we have seen in action. Nothing else really comes close when all of this is unconcious action.
Though just as much it leaves the question of what the backup plan was for when Malhart kicked the bucket.
Is it Noel. Can an Esper shut all of this down if he reaches the source?

----------


## -D-

> Is it Noel. Can an Esper shut all of this down if he reaches the source?


If Noel could do it, Malhart would have done something.

It is hard to believe Malhart would leave Chernyl a threat, even if he had to abandon his orphans.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> If Noel could do it, Malhart would have done something.
> 
> It is hard to believe Malhart would leave Chernyl a threat, even if he had to abandon his orphans.


I mean, maybe. Perhaps Noel could do it, but it's risky and attempting it would unleash Chernyl. Obviously that's not a concern now, but it would be a reason to not risk it while Malhart had her shut down. 

On a different note, I kinda want to call Noel a hypocrite here. He's willing to kill #1, but refuses to kill Chernyl? Sure, #1 is deciding to be a threat, and presumably Chernyl doesn't know what she's doing, but come on. Chernyl's power is literally killing hundreds of people, if not thousands. To the point where the plan to nuke the city actually seems like a pretty reasonable response. #1 might be cruel, stubborn, and a tyrant, but he's also actively risking his life to save the city.  

Also strictly speaking, he is right about Noel being a hazard to the mission. The Empire will execute Chernyl if they get to her. Even if they can disable her power, her crimes mean she will be executed anyways. That means Noel's goal is inherently incompatible with everyone else's. So yeah, he's going to try and save her, and that means betraying the group in some way eventually. 

#1's timing was awful, he should've just prepared to intercept and shut down Noel's betrayal when it happened rather than forcing the issue, but he's not wrong about Noel.

----------


## TeChameleon

It's hard to sympathize much with #1 when he's spent pretty much the entirety of his screen time acting like a frothing lunatic.  Incompatible goals, yes, but at the same time, #1's been perfectly willing to murder everything in sight for perceived slights to his authority, even if it would mean endangering the mission.  He thinks he (perhaps with the help of #2) can handle the mission on his own, even though this is transparently not the case.

Eh, whatever.  I might be judging him a bit harshly because I find Noah tremendously amusing and do not wish him to be killed by some humourless twit.

----------


## lord_khaine

> If Noel could do it, Malhart would have done something.
> 
> It is hard to believe Malhart would leave Chernyl a threat, even if he had to abandon his orphans.


Well Malhart could do something. Unfortunately it required him to be alive and active.
Right now its an emergency. It does not matter if Noels solution is worse than Malharts. That just locked Cherryl in a large town.




> Stuff about Noel and #1


Else i think its quite unfair to call Noel a hyprocrite. 
Just for a start #1 is actively trying to kill him, and by extention endangering the entire town.
While Cherryl isnt actively trying to do so. And possibly a problem that can be shut down by an esper.

All the same. Magical nightmares like the body snatcher quite clearly demonstrates its crucial to have an esper along.
So by definition, its the one trying to get rid of the esper who is the actual hazard to the mission.

----------


## -D-

> Well Malhart could do something. Unfortunately it required him to be alive and active.
> Right now its an emergency. It does not matter if Noels solution is worse than Malharts. That just locked Cherryl in a large town.


Missing my point. If Malhart knew Noel could disable Cherryl, he would probably try it.

Noel can mess with your powers even inside Malhart field. Malhart could have removed her power, and kept pretense that he was containing her.
Like how would JSP know he de-powered Cherryl?

#1 wants to kill Cherryl. With very few witnesses.
Noel wants to do ???
Nail wants a good black crystal stab.
Noah wants this day to end.

Also Noel didn't took the high ground here. He could have told Noah to shield them. I think he wants JSP out so he can try his solution. And seeing how Malhart wasn't ready to bet on Noel, neither would I.

----------


## lord_khaine

Im not missing a point. 
Malhart already disabled Cheryls power. There wasnt a need for Noel to do so. 
Until now, where some idiots shot Malhart with black crystal.

But.. no we dont have any evidence that Malhart could remove powers.
All he did was specifically supress Cheryls. As well as make it harder to sense things.
It does not mean anything that Noel were able to do stuff inside of the field.

As for what Noel want? Quite likely to shut down Cheryls powers. Free his family. Free his adoptive dad.
Get out of this stupid empire?

And why the heck should Noel take the high road, with a cold blooded murderer who is directly promising to kill him?
For all we can see #1 is a rabbid animal and should be treated as such.

----------


## -D-

> Im not missing a point. 
> Malhart already disabled Cheryls power. 
> There wasnt a need for Noel to do so.


This proves you missed it. He didn't disable her power, he just suppressed it with his own. Malhart will probably die before Cheryl. Even if spirit users live long, Cherryl is younger and has a really powerful spirit as well. So, Malhart can't try to contain her in the long run.

My point was, if Noel possessed power to effectively disable Cherryl, not just temporary mute her, Malhart would have done so already.

Whatever Noel has probably won't work in long run. And him opting to kill JSP means he intends to escape.




> As for what Noel want? Quite likely to shut down Cheryls powers. Free his family. Free his adoptive dad.


In regards to Cherryl.

----------


## Grim Portent

Even if all Noel can do is temporarily suppress Chernyl like Malhart was doing, that provides time to sort out a more permanent solution that doesn't necessarily involve killing her. She has done nothing wrong after all, so from an ethical standpoint it's preferable to find a way to contain her that lets her live as normal a life as is possible, as opposed to just shooting her.

Veda presumably had a containment plan of some sort, as well as a plan for using Chernyl as part of the Veda Project in some capacity. Probably something highly unethical, but likely still preferable to being summarily executed by the JSP.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> It's hard to sympathize much with #1 when he's spent pretty much the entirety of his screen time acting like a frothing lunatic.  Incompatible goals, yes, but at the same time, #1's been perfectly willing to murder everything in sight for perceived slights to his authority, even if it would mean endangering the mission.  He thinks he (perhaps with the help of #2) can handle the mission on his own, even though this is transparently not the case.
> 
> Eh, whatever.  I might be judging him a bit harshly because I find Noah tremendously amusing and do not wish him to be killed by some humourless twit.


Sure. #1 is a menance. If, say, the captain, wanted to kill him because he thinks the mission needs him dead to succeed, I wouldn't call him a hypocrite. But Chernyl (just clued in that her name is basically a short version of Chernobyl) is also an active threat to them and everyone else in the city for that matter. And Noel is willing to put his life on the line to try and save her. He didn't say something like 'I have something I want to try, if it works her powers would be disabled. If it doesn't, then I would let you kill her.' He was all 'I will find a way to spare her, no matter what'. 




> Even if all Noel can do is temporarily suppress Chernyl like Malhart was doing, that provides time to sort out a more permanent solution that doesn't necessarily involve killing her. She has done nothing wrong after all, so from an ethical standpoint it's preferable to find a way to contain her that lets her live as normal a life as is possible, as opposed to just shooting her.
> 
> Veda presumably had a containment plan of some sort, as well as a plan for using Chernyl as part of the Veda Project in some capacity. Probably something highly unethical, but likely still preferable to being summarily executed by the JSP.


Well we do know that a different Esper can permanently disable powers. It's not out of the question for Noel to be able to do the same, though maybe he doesn't actually know how to do that, and that's why Malhart didn't have Noel do it already. 




> Else i think its quite unfair to call Noel a hyprocrite. 
> Just for a start #1 is actively trying to kill him, and by extention endangering the entire town.
> While Cherryl isnt actively trying to do so. And possibly a problem that can be shut down by an esper.
> 
> All the same. Magical nightmares like the body snatcher quite clearly demonstrates its crucial to have an esper along.
> So by definition, its the one trying to get rid of the esper who is the actual hazard to the mission.


If Noel was confident in having a way to shut Cherryl down, I think he would've been specific on how he was going to do that. As is, I think he has more of a hope then a plan. 

That being said, Cherryl might not be in control, but she is actively threatening the entire town. It is her power doing this afterall, and presumably killing her would shut the whole thing down. This isn't a hypothetical 'her power might go out of control and kill innocents', no that is happening right now. Every minute she lives is being paid for in the deaths of civilians and soldiers alike. 

Like I said, #1 jumped the gun in his interrogation of Noel. He shouldn't have brought it up until they were on the verge of success. But he isn't wrong about Noel being a threat to the mission. 

Ideally, you'd have both working together until the end, where even if they both died, someone else could take the final step to defeat Cherryl. As is, their infighting might very well doom the mission. #1 may have started it, but only because Noel is exactly the threat he says he is.

----------


## Gez

> Like I said, #1 jumped the gun in his interrogation of Noel. He shouldn't have brought it up until they were on the verge of success. But he isn't wrong about Noel being a threat to the mission. 
> 
> Ideally, you'd have both working together until the end, where even if they both died, someone else could take the final step to defeat Cherryl. As is, their infighting might very well doom the mission. #1 may have started it, but only because Noel is exactly the threat he says he is.


I have two questions about #1. The first is how did he come across the information about Noel in the middle of this sewer romp? If he had an opposition of principle against working with him because of his allegiance, he could have brought that up before they left on the mission.

The other question is how could a man so devoid of subtlety be the head of a secret police. I know they weren't operating undercover in this mission, as everyone else including Noel knew they were from the JSP, but still I'd expect the first officer of the secret police in this city to be more adept at cloak-and-dagger stuff, deception, misdirection, etc. When he's just been a brute force bully who "solved" every problem by threatening summary execution.

----------


## -D-

> I have two questions about #1. The first is how did he come across the information about Noel in the middle of this sewer romp?


No idea. I think he recognized him or something.




> The other question is how could a man so devoid of subtlety be the head of a secret police. I know they weren't operating undercover in this mission, as everyone else including Noel knew they were from the JSP.


I think they are like Gestapo. Given high enough power, they can bully anyone into silence. Why be subtle when you can execute the witnesses.

Or neorice just imagines all secret police is like that.

----------


## lord_khaine

> This proves you missed it. He didn't disable her power, he just suppressed it with his own. Malhart will probably die before Cheryl. Even if spirit users live long, Cherryl is younger and has a really powerful spirit as well. So, Malhart can't try to contain her in the long run.
> 
> My point was, if Noel possessed power to effectively disable Cherryl, not just temporary mute her, Malhart would have done so already.
> 
> Whatever Noel has probably won't work in long run. And him opting to kill JSP means he intends to escape.


Actually no it means you did in fact miss it. Cherryl's power was disabled inside the town while Malhart were active. 
I newer claimed it was a PERMANENT disable. Thats something you came up with on your own.




> And Noel is willing to put his life on the line to try and save her. He didn't say something like 'I have something I want to try, if it works her powers would be disabled. If it doesn't, then I would let you kill her.' He was all 'I will find a way to spare her, no matter what'.


Your kinda leaving out some raving lunatic held a gun to his face. And for that matter didnt even allow him to expand on his point before shutting him up. 
That scene alone justifies killing #1 as self defence in my eyes.
Besides the bit about him being a raving lunatic thats a danger to the mission.




> If Noel was confident in having a way to shut Cherryl down, I think he would've been specific on how he was going to do that. As is, I think he has more of a hope then a plan.
> 
> That being said, Cherryl might not be in control, but she is actively threatening the entire town. It is her power doing this afterall, and presumably killing her would shut the whole thing down. This isn't a hypothetical 'her power might go out of control and kill innocents', no that is happening right now. Every minute she lives is being paid for in the deaths of civilians and soldiers alike.
> 
> Like I said, #1 jumped the gun in his interrogation of Noel. He shouldn't have brought it up until they were on the verge of success. But he isn't wrong about Noel being a threat to the mission.
> 
> Ideally, you'd have both working together until the end, where even if they both died, someone else could take the final step to defeat Cherryl. As is, their infighting might very well doom the mission. #1 may have started it, but only because Noel is exactly the threat he says he is.


Noel is an Esper. His whole thing is shutting down other peoples magic. 
What more specific does he need?

And when the mission is basically impossible without Noel. Then by definition he -cant- be a threat to it.
Since without him there isnt a mission. 
Where besides that. The only evidence we have of Noel potentially betraying anyone is the insane ramblings of a rabbid idiot.
The only thing Noel has said. Is that HE wont kill Cherryl. There is a world of difference between that and standing aside if he is unable to handle things.

In conclusion. Noel isnt a threat. And some nightmares can kill with a glance, so the mission is basically impossible without.




> I have two questions about #1. The first is how did he come across the information about Noel in the middle of this sewer romp? If he had an opposition of principle against working with him because of his allegiance, he could have brought that up before they left on the mission.


Its not a unusual theory to develop with the amount of information Noel have about the nightmares.

----------


## -D-

> Actually no it means you did in fact miss it. Cherryl's power was disabled inside the town while Malhart were active. 
> I newer claimed it was a PERMANENT disable. Thats something you came up with on your own.


You didn't ask for clarification. Just assumed I meant a temporary solution. I meant a permanent fix that, doesn't require you to kill her.  Because as we've seen with Malhart, temporary fix is no fix at all.

Even if Malhart didn't eat a black crystal bullet back then, he would have died at some point and cause an even greater catastrophe. Because his powers suppressed it, but don't prevent it from growing stronger.

Rn, solution  to Chernyl might be - bullet to the head or stab with black crystal. Barring some spirit shenanigans.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> I have two questions about #1. The first is how did he come across the information about Noel in the middle of this sewer romp? If he had an opposition of principle against working with him because of his allegiance, he could have brought that up before they left on the mission.
> 
> The other question is how could a man so devoid of subtlety be the head of a secret police. I know they weren't operating undercover in this mission, as everyone else including Noel knew they were from the JSP, but still I'd expect the first officer of the secret police in this city to be more adept at cloak-and-dagger stuff, deception, misdirection, etc. When he's just been a brute force bully who "solved" every problem by threatening summary execution.


I think it was because Noel recognized so many nightmares, and the JSP would know that the Veda Project kids shouldn't know that information. Or at least, that much information.




> Your kinda leaving out some raving lunatic held a gun to his face. And for that matter didnt even allow him to expand on his point before shutting him up. 
> That scene alone justifies killing #1 as self defence in my eyes.
> Besides the bit about him being a raving lunatic thats a danger to the mission.
> 
> 
> 
> Noel is an Esper. His whole thing is shutting down other peoples magic. 
> What more specific does he need?
> 
> ...


Yeah, with a gun to his face, he still stuck to his position of 'I will save her.' And #1's question was 'if it came down to it, would you be willing to kill her?' There was certainly room in that question for Noel to answer 'if we can't disable her power, then yes' Or even 'I don't think I could, but I wouldn't stop any of you' 

Sure, it was self defense to fight against #1, no question there. But I'm arguing it would be self defense to kill Cherryl as well. 

On a sidenote, I'm upset at how Noel tried to use Noah as a weapon against #1. 


He needs to be more specific in how permanent a solution it is. Can he shut her down until he goes to sleep/loses concentration? Well that's not quite useless, but it is hardly a long term solution. Can he shut her down, so long as he is alive? That's better, but has way too much potential for a repeat incident. Or can we shut her down permanently? Well, if he could, I imagine he would have already. 

So far we've only seen 1 threat that actually needed Noel present to deal with. And maybe that one could be handled if multiple well armed people fought it at the same time, because that body snatch technique seemed slow. And Noel gave flat out bad advice about the heart spiders. 


Noel is totally a threat. But he's less of a threat then #1, and is substantially more useful. That being said, I fully expect him to be an obstacle or betray the group at some point.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Oh come on!
What does it take to kill this guy?
At this point it would be a bigger twist if he isn't a Nightmare.

Also, Nightmare or not, I really hope that call didn't connect. :Small Eek:

----------


## -D-

> Oh come on!
> What does it take to kill this guy?
> At this point it would be a bigger twist if he isn't a Nightmare.
> 
> Also, Nightmare or not, I really hope that call didn't connect.


I think he died already. Could be another nightmare, using his body/mind, to cause more suffering.

Implying Chernyl's power can survive a nuke or three.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

#3 seems like a reasonable fellow. I'm sure they can talk this out.

Or at least he didn't press the big red button already and he's answering Halmer. That's more than you can say about his buddies. 

The only question is, was that a good "did you just shoot my boss" or a bad "did you just shoot my boss".
("Thanks the author that wacko's dead" vs. "you're all traitors, town goes boom now")

----------


## -D-

Apparently JSP operates like a Clingon society. I.e. promotion on death.

----------


## lord_khaine

It seemed like a pretty clear assumption with then literally having numbers as names.

But good riddance former #1. Even dying he showed what a waste of a human being he were. 

Actual question is how the current #1 handle things.
He does not seem entirely sane. None of the secret policemen do.

----------


## Gez

Obligatory:

*Spoiler: Video*
Show

----------


## -D-

> It seemed like a pretty clear assumption with then literally having numbers as names.


Not really. I assumed those were just codenames. Like 007. Doesn't mean there are only 7 active agents.

Also Lazy town has more subtle spies than Justeopeia.

----------


## Ibrinar

*Spoiler*
Show

Certainly an anti climatic way to negate the bomb threat, that made me laugh.^^ Though I suppose it might still be somewhere where he can find it.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Not really. I assumed those were just codenames. Like 007. Doesn't mean there are only 7 active agents.


No because 007 does not eleminate the existance of 008, 009, or even 0010.

But yeah a slightly silly outcome.
At the same time this is kinda bad. It means its not possible to nuke Haven if the team fails.
And words fail to describe how scary Cheryls power is.

That goes double so in a place like this. Without trained magic users to oppose the nightmares.
Cherryl might be in the top 3 spot as far as magic power goes. But at least in heroland there is the hope that a band of heroes team up and saves the day. 
Or in the Global Order. A paladin unit. Here Noel seems like basically the only viable counter.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> No because 007 does not eleminate the existance of 008, 009, or even 0010.
> 
> But yeah a slightly silly outcome.
> At the same time this is kinda bad. It means its not possible to nuke Haven if the team fails.
> And words fail to describe how scary Cheryls power is.
> 
> That goes double so in a place like this. Without trained magic users to oppose the nightmares.
> Cherryl might be in the top 3 spot as far as magic power goes. But at least in heroland there is the hope that a band of heroes team up and saves the day. 
> Or in the Global Order. A paladin unit. Here Noel seems like basically the only viable counter.


It made me laugh, that's for sure. I thought for sure that they'd have to jump into the mist on the off chance that being in a pocket dimension would save them from the bombs. 


Honestly, from what we've seen Heroland wouldn't be that better off. Without previous knowledge of the nightmares, the heroes would be pretty screwed, and would eventually get worn down and eliminated. I think only the really high level magic users would be anything more than cannon fodder.

----------


## lord_khaine

> It made me laugh, that's for sure. I thought for sure that they'd have to jump into the mist on the off chance that being in a pocket dimension would save them from the bombs.


That was honestly my guess as well. A frantic escape into the pocket dimension as everyone else are nuked. 
But i guess it kills a bit to much of the cast Neorice has build up over the last 5 years.

All the same. I would not have called todays result a victory. The situation is still ****ed.
There is a reason the nuke was there as a emergency.




> Honestly, from what we've seen Heroland wouldn't be that better off. Without previous knowledge of the nightmares, the heroes would be pretty screwed, and would eventually get worn down and eliminated. I think only the really high level magic users would be anything more than cannon fodder.


Hmm. Well we dont know how much of the nightmare BS that can be blocket by spirit techniques.
Though since they in turn are the creation of a magic user. Then my initial assumption is "all of it". 
And in that case i dont think we have seen a nightmare who would not have its ass kicked by even a mid level hero like Silent.

As it is, the nightmares are scary because their opponents are a couple regular soldiers and a pair of kids. 
While a team of heroes would represent so much concentrated power that they would win fights without attrition.

The biggest issue is they would need someone with at least decent spirit observation skill to find Cherryl.

----------


## -D-

> No because 007 does not eleminate the existance of 008, 009, or even 0010.


Bond 007 didn't become 006 upon 006 death. So just having a number for a name does not make it a Clingon hierarchy (where death means someone is getting promoted)

Which raises unfortunate questions. Are these the top 3 secret police in Justeopeia?

----------


## Kantaki

> Bond 007 didn't become 006 upon 006 death. So just having a number for a name does not make it a Clingon hierarchy (where death means someone is getting promoted)
> 
> Which raises unfortunate questions. Are these the top 3 secret police in Justeopeia?


Top three field agents probably.
Which'd be depressing enough, really.

Depends if there's a Number Zero.
And/or letters and where those stand rankwise.

----------


## -D-

> Top three field agents probably.


How would that work? Which field? Like what happens if two #1 are on the same bridge?

----------


## Kantaki

> How would that work? Which field? Like what happens if two #1 are on the same bridge?


There is only one Number One. Hence why Number Three is now Number One. Number One and Number Two died and Three got promoted.
Now, why they send their three highest ranking guys to Haven I can't tell, but if they're indicative of the general quality of the Secret Police it can only go downhill as the numbers increase.

----------


## Grim Portent

I think the numbers are just impromptu codenames they use temporarily when dealing with non secret police, rather than their formal rank in the JSP.

But number 3, being the most junior of this team, and seemingly a bit off when they were first introduced,* is taking them to heart more than he should.

Given what we've seen of 1 and 2, 3 probably got threatened with being shot on a near daily basis, and was subject to inhumane working conditions as part of normal operations. Him being more than a bit crazy makes sense to me.


*As I recall he seemed confused as to which of him and number 2 was in fact number 3. He didn't exactly come across as professional or prepared.

----------


## Ailurus

> Top three field agents probably.


Top 3 field agents in Haven, anyway.  Could go either way in comparison to Justopia as a whole.  It might be the JSP put their 3 top agents in Haven due to the risk from Chernyl.  Or it might be that Haven was considered a super low priority situation since it was contained by Malhart and the JSP as a whole said "well, all they need to do is punch in a code if a very unlikely event happens so let's send these dummies over there to get them out of the way."

Guy Juliet stands in massive contrast to the JSP.  Also from Justopia, also in law enforcement (though, regular cop not secret police), and he's the polar opposite of the JSP guys - smart, semi-caring, willing to work with people instead of just killing them, and still effective in at least disabling opponents (at least, he dealt with both Lacey and Piper).  Granted, he is a well known (maybe celebrity) cop not rank-and-file cop, but if one of your top cops is so vastly beyond your best secret police, you need to revisit your secret police training and policies.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Bond 007 didn't become 006 upon 006 death. So just having a number for a name does not make it a Clingon hierarchy (where death means someone is getting promoted)


No but the thing missing there is that Bond wasnt the superior to 008 and 009.

----------


## Gez

> No but the thing missing there is that Bond wasnt the superior to 008 and 009.


But also he's 007, not #007. There's a difference between "One" and "Number One".


Anyways, RIP Halmer. As basically the only decent person in the entire Justopea state apparatus, you had no chance of survival.

----------


## lord_khaine

RIP Palmer, only actually adult present. 
He will be missed. It was a dumb way to go.

----------


## Kornaki

For all the crap the JSP gets, #1 at least was definitely going to be executed even if their mission was a success for violating orders.  If part of their original mission includes a bunker to hide in, he might have undergone this mission at the expense of his own life to try to save everyone else. He's a jackass but I think he might have just been doing what he thought was best for the city and the country.

----------


## Ailurus

And, we're officially on Noah and Noel's grand adventure now.

----------


## lord_khaine

> For all the crap the JSP gets, #1 at least was definitely going to be executed even if their mission was a success for violating orders. If part of their original mission includes a bunker to hide in, he might have undergone this mission at the expense of his own life to try to save everyone else. He's a jackass but I think he might have just been doing what he thought was best for the city and the country.


That run contrary to everything we have seen. #1 was the highest ranking officer in the area. It was clearly his decision to estimate if the situation were bad enough to detornate the bomb or not. 
But when told of the mission his focus was not on "how do we safe people" but on "how do we get credit for this". 

And his dying words were literally scolding another Justopian officer for caring about civilians.

----------


## Grim Portent

He did say he expected to get executed by his superiors in the event that they succeeded, because his orders weren't to decide if it was appropriate to use the bombs or not, but simply to detonate them the moment Chernyl ceased to be contained. His bosses are probably like him, but worse.

Now he could have had a bit of hope that his superiors might decide not to execute him for insubordination after saving the city, but I imagine he would have had something else that would motivate him to try and avoid using the bombs. Patriotism, a relative in the city that he hadn't become completely distant from, maybe a coffee shop he just really liked, probably not a reason based on genuine compassion for the people of Haven.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Now he could have had a bit of hope that his superiors might decide not to execute him for insubordination after saving the city, but I imagine he would have had something else that would motivate him to try and avoid using the bombs. Patriotism, a relative in the city that he hadn't become completely distant from, maybe a coffee shop he just really liked, probably not a reason based on genuine compassion for the people of Haven.


Hmm.. well it could be he said that.
Though at the same time. If he blow the bomb he will die. If he dont he -might- get excecuted. 
So not triggering the bomb is still his own best chance of survival. Where he then either becomes a hero or get shot.

----------


## Grim Portent

Another option would be that he would die if they succeeded, but 2 and 3 would more likely live, as they didn't disobey any orders. Again likely wouldn't be something motivated by compassion, but more likely a compulsion to control things, a sense of duty or a desire to leave the only kind of legacy a JSP agent can; other agents who knew them.

Broadly speaking I think self preservation was not something that factored in, at least not when there's plenty of things that could be a motivation.  Hell, for all we know Number 1 had a wife and kids living in a little house just outside the range of Chernyl's power but inside the blast radius of the bombs, we really don't know much about him other than what we've seen of him in a rather extraordinary circumstance.

----------


## Welf

So much for Noah and Noel going on an adventure.

----------


## lord_khaine

I do kinda doubt the bombs outrange Cherryl.




> So much for Noah and Noel going on an adventure.


A little early to say so?
I doubt we get rid of Noel at this point. A Nail rescue seems more likely.

----------


## Grim Portent

> I do kinda doubt the bombs outrange Cherryl.


Not so sure myself, her power is kind of vague in terms of range, and even small nukes (_red mushroom bombs_ really heavily implies nuclear equivalent devices) have quite large ranges. Unless her powers have reached past even the most distant suburbs of Haven I think the nukes might still be able to hit some people with lethal effects that aren't in range for Chernyl's nightmares yet.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Not so sure myself, her power is kind of vague in terms of range, and even small nukes (red mushroom bombs really heavily implies nuclear equivalent devices) have quite large ranges. Unless her powers have reached past even the most distant suburbs of Haven I think the nukes might still be able to hit some people with lethal effects that aren't in range for Chernyl's nightmares yet.


Not quite that long range. 
And something with wings can cover a couple km in a few minuttes. 
We lack a guarantee that nightmares cant move outside their spawning zone.
They were real enough they could not be time frozen.

----------


## Gez

As long as Chernyl herself dies, the nightmare invasion is over. Even if those already here do not disappear, there would be a finite number of them, which could be progressively eradicated.

----------


## lord_khaine

That.. dont really have anything to do with the current discussion  :Small Tongue: 

Also. Milestone comic. Noah does something heroic!
Just Noah rescuing himself is big. Now he rescue someone else.

----------


## Gez

> That.. dont really have anything to do with the current discussion


You're questioning whether the bombs outrange Chernyl's power; they don't need to. As long as Chernyl's physical body is within range, the bombs would work just fine to stop the nightmares. Best case scenario they just disappear without Chernyl's power to sustain them, worst case they remain but will no longer get replenished/multiplied so the area just becomes an adventure zone until it's fully cleared.

----------


## lord_khaine

> You're questioning whether the bombs outrange Chernyl's power; they don't need to. As long as Chernyl's physical body is within range, the bombs would work just fine to stop the nightmares. Best case scenario they just disappear without Chernyl's power to sustain them, worst case they remain but will no longer get replenished/multiplied so the area just becomes an adventure zone until it's fully cleared.


Yeah no. That does in fact show you wasnt aware about what you were responding to  :Small Tongue: 

See. It -does- matter if the bombs outrange Cheryls power or not.




> Broadly speaking I think self preservation was not something that factored in, at least not when there's plenty of things that could be a motivation. Hell, for all we know Number 1 had a wife and kids living in a little house just outside the range of Chernyl's power but inside the blast radius of the bombs, we really don't know much about him other than what we've seen of him in a rather extraordinary circumstance.

----------


## Gez

Then it's irrelevant because they have no way of knowing for sure what Chernyl's range anyway.


New chapter drop: Burk, Nightshare, and the mystery of the talking cat!
http://neorice.com/hoh_2433

Funny how Nightshade doesn't seem to think Burk could be an Esper himself. http://neorice.com/hoh_2442

That said, I'm not sure he's an Esper either. Right now, I'm wondering how literal the little shoulder devils should be taken. Because of their reappearance doesn't really fit the usual angle where it's just a depiction of an internal debate.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Then it's irrelevant because they have no way of knowing for sure what Chernyl's range anyway.


It does not matter what they know for sure. 
Neither the bombs nor Cherryl is affected by what people think their range are.
But one will still be greater than the other.


Else. I can see i was wrong about Alfen after all. He were a villain of sorts.
Well either that or himself caught by a contract. 

And something is indeed up with Burk's shoulder Devils.
Those are not imaginary. They seem more like Ciel than anything else we have seen.

----------


## Kantaki

New chapter

Huh, Burk's like Noah then? With his own spirit guides? 
They do remind me of Ciel a bit. 
Or are those just classic shoulder devils? ( :Belkar: : Wait, isn't the second guy supposed to be, like, a angel or something?

I mean one of them did warn him about that attack, but that might just be Burk being Burk.
And the shoulder devils being independent being(s) doesn't quite fit Burk being "100% Burk". 

In any case it seems the contract isn't working as well as it should be.

----------


## lord_khaine

So.. dam.. THIS is a massive surprise. 
But well gives a bit of an idea where Ghouls come from.

----------


## Kantaki

Well, that's interesting.
In the "old chinese curse" sense.

Now who's on the steering wheel and how much trouble are they going to be?

----------


## lord_khaine

I suspect the train is automated to be honest. 
Else.. well.. even if its a Ghoulish Infinity?
The Paladin AND the Beast lady is around.

----------


## Kantaki

I meant who's in control of the Infini-Ghoul and how much trouble will that spell for Team Tobi.

New comic

The vanishing act probably means the answer to the second part is "lots".

----------


## Grim Portent

Well this tells us an awful lot about ghouls even as it raises more questions.

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah. Well for a start it basically confirms ghouls are some sort of spirit inhabiting dead bodies. 
That in turn explain why its basically impossible to kill them.

----------


## -D-

> Yeah. Well for a start it basically confirms ghouls are some sort of spirit inhabiting dead bodies. 
> That in turn explain why its basically impossible to kill them.


I would imagine Espers would be super good at dealing with them.

BTW did anyone notice the train they are on is actually the same one Three rode on? That means the train survived... barely.

----------


## Gez

> I would imagine Espers would be super good at dealing with them.


We've seen an example of how a particular Esper has dealt with a particular ghoul before... Immortal doesn't mean invulnerable after all.



> BTW did anyone notice the train they are on is actually the same one Three rode on? That means the train survived... barely.


Everyone did. Hence the sarcastic "Who could have predicted that." author comment here.

----------


## -D-

> We've seen an example of how a particular Esper has dealt with a particular ghoul before... Immortal doesn't mean invulnerable after all.


Yeah, but since GO is an order of Espers, the ghouls wouldn't be such a nuisance.




> Everyone did. Hence the sarcastic "Who could have predicted that." author comment here.


Meant, here in this forum, not on the comic comment section. I saw it when crawling around for Cryomata's dialog with Tobi.

----------


## Gez

Tobi shouldn't assume that Infinite is finished. Mostly because she's been told that ghouls are impossible to kill.

If we compare with 2298, we see two significant traces of damage that have yet to be inflicted. One is the dent which is at about Tobi's position (a little bit more to the side); the other is a hole at Maria's position. (I think her name was Maria; don't feel like archive-trawling to verify it, though.)

----------


## -D-

> Tobi shouldn't assume that Infinite is finished. Mostly because she's been told that ghouls are impossible to kill.
> 
> If we compare with 2298, we see two significant traces of damage that have yet to be inflicted. One is the dent which is at about Tobi's position (a little bit more to the side); the other is a hole at Maria's position. (I think her name was Maria; don't feel like archive-trawling to verify it, though.)


True. Decapitation isn't a serious injury. I worry for the other three contestants.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well. 3 is among them. Im not -that- worried. 
Even if the ghoul isnt disabled. While i dont think 3 can kill a ghoul, im also quite certain a ghoul cant kill 3.
And i am quite certain 3 should be able to kick a ghoul off a train.

----------


## -D-

> Well. 3 is among them. Im not -that- worried. 
> Even if the ghoul isnt disabled. While i dont think 3 can kill a ghoul, im also quite certain a ghoul cant kill 3.
> And i am quite certain 3 should be able to kick a ghoul off a train.


Clarification: I meant Foxy, Shalia and Maria. There was more damage on the train, one of them could have fallen off and had their head explode. Tobi isn't going to die. It's her book.

Speaking of Three, Cop and Snitch, where is the fourth contestant?

----------


## lord_khaine

Ah. Well i really dont worry about that team whatsoever.
The Paladin or Foxy should at most be annoyed by falling off a train.
And i dont care if the last one does so.

----------


## Kantaki

New Comic

So Ghouls actually run on RPG mechanics? :Small Confused: 
Poor Infini-Ghoul. No level-up for you. :Small Tongue: 
Running into high level foes on your starter mission is just unfair... :Small Amused:

----------


## -D-

> Ah. Well i really dont worry about that team whatsoever.
> The Paladin or Foxy should at most be annoyed by falling off a train.
> And i dont care if the last one does so.


I suspect Maria is the one that knows more about this experiment. Or is the fugitive.

----
Also @Kantaki. It's just level gateing the ghoul.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Aww. It's hatching already. :Small Amused: 
The miracle of life, everybody. :Small Big Grin: 

Come on Ghoulfinite, you can do it!
Getting out of the egg at least.
I've got my doubts about beating the Paladin.

----------


## Ailurus

Well, guess we get to find out exactly how durable Ghoulfinite actually is.  And I think all the visible damage to the train is accounted for now.

----------


## lord_khaine

I doubt its enough to actually leave any lasting damage. 
We saw he regrew his head. 
The paladin who are best informed seemed to think it safer to just kick him off the train.

----------


## Kantaki

Yeah, whatever game the Ghouls are playing, it doesn't seem to feature perma-death.
And this looks like one of those cheap "It's 200% dead! Wait. shouldn't my head be attached to my body?" shock moments.
Only this party's genre savy.

----------


## lord_khaine

I dont think they considder it dead. 
Just exploded off the train.

----------


## Kantaki

> I dont think they considder it dead. 
> Just exploded off the train.


Of course they don't. Never claimed so.
They know what they are dealing with.

But how often in horror _cheer for the monster_ movies do you get a "There's no way anyone could've survived this." followed by a "It's still alive! Inconceivable!" when the monster inevitably pops up again.
Them going "He'll be back." is nice I guess.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

So, who wants to bet on Maria trying something ill advised?
I kinda expect Shalia will have to make good on her warning.

Also, implied chapter drop incoming?
Those are always neat.

Edit

Pablo time! 

*Spoiler: new chapter*
Show

Guy's scary.
Kicking all those wasps to death midair aside, facing the assassin offscreen after a ominous announcement? 
Him being a Royal Guard is probably the most harmless explanation I can think off.

----------


## Ailurus

Well, back to Noah and Noel it looks like.  On the plus side, there aren't that many people left who can get killed by the nightmares at the moment!




> New comic
> 
> *Spoiler: new chapter*
> Show
> 
> Guy's scary.
> Kicking all those wasps to death midair aside, facing the assassin offscreen after a ominous announcement? 
> Him being a Royal Guard is probably the most harmless explanation I can think off.



*Spoiler: chapter drop*
Show


Yeah, Guy definitely has something else going on.  Royal Guard would be the most harmless explanation, but then most of the time we've seen the royal guards they haven't actually performed all that well. 


Can the heroes actually do anything to Pablo?  He still has diplomatic immunity, and when the announcement came down, it was for Piper and Burke but Pablo wasn't on it.  So why the heroes may want answers from Pablo not sure what they can do without breaking their own rules.

----------


## Kornaki

To be honest,  I don't see why they would hurt Pablo if he tells the truth.  They're here to ask questions.  If they were working for the esper they would just be here to kill him at this point.

----------


## lord_khaine

I really dont think Guy's thing is being a Royal Guard.
Since so far he hasnt done anything on screen that makes a Royal Guard stand out compared to him.
If anything he has more badass feats to his name than Royal Guards right now.

So what he is revealing now is something extreme.




> To be honest, I don't see why they would hurt Pablo if he tells the truth. They're here to ask questions. If they were working for the esper they would just be here to kill him at this point.


This does seem to be the case i think. Not every hero is in on the conspiracy.
And so quite likely these are just regular low-level heroes, who are genuinly confused about what the heck is going on.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Heh. Talking is (not) a free action. :Small Big Grin: 

But from the sounds of it surviving working in Black Crystal mines isn't the only way to get Esper powers.
Bad news: It still sucks. Noel got his from something connected to Chernyl from the sound of if.

I'm guessing he's not connected to the original incident?
Unless Noel is way older than it seems.
So either I'm misunderstanding something or Malhart wasn't entirely effective in containing nightmare girl.

You know, unless little Noel went into Chernyl's room when he really shouldn't have I'm starting to think the Secret Police wasn't entirely wrong with their plan A.

Anyway, sounds like to get them out of this Nightmare Noah has to face Noel's nighmares of Chernyl's other Nightmares. 
Joy.

Is there a plan B?
Oh. Wait. That one went down the drain a while ago, didn't it?
Plan C2 then. Just a few more and were back to blowing stuff up. :Small Amused:

----------


## Kornaki

Took me a while to notice the faces at the top. 

So much for letting the food surprise him.

----------


## Gez

No comment box on today's comic at the moment, so I'll just say it here instead: lucky for Noah, Daddy does have vegetables to eat! Elves have plant powers, so they are plants, right? The meal is not very fresh, that one was waiting in the sewers for a few months, but that just gives it more flavor!

----------


## TeChameleon

... if Noah's vegetarian, I think he's established some kind of record by going this long without telling anyone...  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Kantaki

> ... if Noah's vegetarian, I think he's established some kind of record by going this long without telling anyone...


I guess that's why the Nightmare thought he was lying. :Small Amused: 

Does anyone else think the vegetarian dish will be worse than the freshly harvested human hearts? :Small Eek:

----------


## Grim Portent

So this conversation is giving us some context on Chernyl's power, it seems that at least some of the nightmares cease to exist the moment her power is taken out. Or at least their physical manifestations stop.

Granted this could be inferred from the fact that stopping her was a viable plan in the first place, but this feels like more solid confirmation of it.

Daddy at least seems to have kept existing in the time between now and Chernyl's last incident, but been unable to prey upon people until her power was unleashed again. Presumably at least some of the other nightmares play by the same rules.

Which leads to the possibility that the nightmares aren't created by Chernyl, instead being extra-dimensional beings that invade reality through her dreams but which exist independantly of her. Or they are interdimensional horrors created by Chernyl who then continue to exist as conscious beings even when her powers don't work.

----------


## -D-

Pretty sure Tobi showed all Pandemonium users (even Noah) have a Spirit Raid Boss attached to them that does magic stuff. And in exchange, when Pandemonium users die they become ghouls, possessed by the same spirit raid boss.

Whether the magic stuff is look at people's nightmares and make them manifest or pull nightmare out of nightmare world is irrelevant. For now at least. Unless inner mental world is some noosphere that makes imagined stuff real.

----------


## lord_khaine

I dont think we have had it confirmed yet that Noah is a pandemonium user.

As for the nightmares having existed while Cheryl was sealed.
Well Daddy directly complained about being by Malhart. Perhaps he less negated Cheryls power, and more locked it up.

----------


## -D-

> I dont think we have had it confirmed yet that Noah is a pandemonium user.


According to doctor. There are three magic user types: Spirit users (just classic magic), Pandemonium (classic magic + some unique form) and Free magic (magic based on users self impossed rule, which can't use classic spirit magic).

Can Noah use classic spirit magic - yes. Not Free Magic user. Can Noah use non-spirit magic - Yes. Hence, Pandemonium.
QED.

----------


## lord_khaine

Except.. we have in fact newer had it stated Free Magic users cant learn spirit magic. 
Hence no QED :P
No QED? Not proven Pandamonium. Noah might be free magic.

----------


## -D-

> Except.. we have in fact newer had it stated Free Magic users cant learn spirit magic. 
> Hence no QED :P
> No QED? Not proven Pandamonium. Noah might be free magic.


That might be from Discord or Patreon, but I remember neorice saying Free Magic users can't use spirit, it would be like powering a car (spirit art) with a nuclear blast (free magic).

----------


## lord_khaine

Ah.. see amusingly.. i recall hearing vaguely the opposite before leaving the discord.
That free magic users could learn spirit techniques, but that it just isnt worth it because free magic offer them so much more.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Pretty sure Tobi showed all Pandemonium users (even Noah) have a Spirit Raid Boss attached to them that does magic stuff. *And in exchange, when Pandemonium users die they become ghouls, possessed by the same spirit raid boss.*
> 
> Whether the magic stuff is look at people's nightmares and make them manifest or pull nightmare out of nightmare world is irrelevant. For now at least. Unless inner mental world is some noosphere that makes imagined stuff real.


Where are you getting the bolded bit from? I'm pretty sure that if every pandemonium user became a ghoul when they died, people would have noticed that by now and would've secured Infinite's corpse as a result.

----------


## -D-

> Ah.. see amusingly.. i recall hearing vaguely the opposite before leaving the discord.
> That free magic users could learn spirit techniques, but that it just isnt worth it because free magic offer them so much more.


The wiki states 
https://hero-oh-hero.fandom.com/wiki/Magic
Additionally, 
https://hero-oh-hero.fandom.com/wiki/Noah

Other than that, it should be obvious. If something is basic, like shield, cover, mask, etc. It's spirit user.

If it's niche and non-adjustable it's Pandemonium. Sonny with Earth manipulation, Ariara with metal manipulation, etc.

If it's powerful, themed and adjustable it's free magic. See Alex with books, that Justopea bandana lady with weapons, etc. 




> Where are you getting the bolded bit from? I'm pretty sure that if every pandemonium user became a ghoul when they died, people would have noticed that by now and would've secured Infinite's corpse as a result.


From last time Paladin talked about ghouls she mentioned. Magic users aren't supposed to become ghouls this quickly.  Implying that they do become one eventually.

Infinite was unique that he turned in minutes. Would people notice if say few corpses turned every century?

----------


## lord_khaine

> The wiki states
> https://hero-oh-hero.fandom.com/wiki/Magic
> Additionally,
> https://hero-oh-hero.fandom.com/wiki/Noah
> 
> Other than that, it should be obvious. If something is basic, like shield, cover, mask, etc. It's spirit user.
> 
> If it's niche and non-adjustable it's Pandemonium. Sonny with Earth manipulation, Ariara with metal manipulation, etc.
> 
> If it's powerful, themed and adjustable it's free magic. See Alex with books, that Justopea bandana lady with weapons, etc.


Sorry, but knowing its likely the nutters from the dischord being behind the fan wiki, then i dont give much if anything for it, especially when it cant list sources  :Small Tongue: 
I mean i could spend ½ an hour putting up a wiki page saying the opposite of what this does. But it would not be any more of a viable source than this. 

And no. Its not obvious. Else we would not be debating it.
The question is not of the main difference between magic potential, pandemonium powers, and free magic. 

Its if free magic users can also learn spirit powers. Because if they can, then we know so little about Noahs power its impossible to say for certain what it is.
It could be pandemonium yeah. But his "what do you wish for?" could also be how his free magic manifests. 




> From last time Paladin talked about ghouls she mentioned. Magic users aren't supposed to become ghouls this quickly. Implying that they do become one eventually.
> 
> Infinite was unique in that he turned in minutes. Would people notice if say few corpses turned every century?


Well that could just as well mean that -some- dead pandemonium mages turned into ghouls after having been dead for i dont know, days, weeks?
It was a short limited sentence where the actual topic was the speed a corpse turned into a ghoul.

Also he didnt turn in minuttes. He had at the very least i would claim, have been dead for hours.

----------


## -D-

> Sorry, but knowing its likely the nutters from the dischord being behind the fan wiki, then i dont give much if anything for it, especially when it cant list sources


Umm, neorice is there, pretty sure he insinuated a few times Noah is pandemonium. I'll see if I can dig a quote.He is literally the word of god. 

And Alcemon did decent wiki gathering, he talked to Neorice about it and even some unreleased stuff yet.




> And no. Its not obvious. Else we would not be debating it.


I think you might be only one confused by this. I don't see anyone else debating about this.




> Also he didnt turn in minuttes. He had at the very least i would claim, have been dead for hours.


Ok, fine, hours. 

It still doesn't negate my point. If ghouls are spawned with a quest, what happens if a quest happens every 100-300 years? With a special exception for seasonal events - like the End Times.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Umm, neorice is there, pretty sure he insinuated a few times Noah is pandemonium. I'll see if I can dig a quote.He is literally the word of god.
> 
> And Alcemon did decent wiki gathering, he talked to Neorice about it and even some unreleased stuff yet.


Uhm no. Neorice seems to enjoy the speculation. And extremely rarely offers an actual comment. 
His word is indeed the word of god. The wiki? not as much.




> I think you might be only one confused by this. I don't see anyone else debating about this.


You mean your the only one here confused by the opposite? That goes both ways. 

Also its extremely rude to throw insults like confused, when you have in fact not been able to deliver any factual evidence.
Only the oppinion of other fans who have equally lacked factual evidence.




> It still doesn't negate my point. If ghouls are spawned with a quest, what happens if a quest happens every 100-300 years? With a special exception for seasonal events - like the End Times.


Your point was a strawman anyway. Noone contested Infinite's spawning rate was special.
What was contested was that its -every- pandemonium user who turns into a ghoul. 
Instead of possibly just some.

----------


## -D-

> Uhm no. Neorice seems to enjoy the speculation. And extremely rarely offers an actual comment. 
> His word is indeed the word of god. The wiki? Not as much.


Finally found it.
https://imgur.com/a/sWO8X34

I was only confused that Free magic can't use Spirit Magic. They can. I corrected myself. 
The quote by a third party went something like "Using Spirit Magic as Free Magic user is like using a flamethrower to light a candle". I thought it implied unsafety, but it could have been just that it's wasteful.




> Also its extremely rude to throw insults like confused, when you have in fact not been able to deliver any factual evidence.
> Only the oppinion of other fans who have equally lacked factual evidence.


Confused isn't an insult. Everyone gets confused about something. You are, however, the only one arguing that Noah isn't Pandemonium.

It's extremely rude to assume that other party is automatically arguing in bad faith when I just picked up on clues and the general setting of the world. Many works rely on hints by the author, and authors can be long dead - i.e. not able to explain what they meant.
Also, those fans talked to the author and have little incentive to lie and distort (yes, they can forget, but Alcemon was in contact with neo for a long time, so the chance of an error was minimized).




> What was contested was that its -every- pandemonium user who turns into a ghoul. 
> Instead of possibly just some.


http://www.neorice.com/hoh_tobi_2479




> Foxy - So what's was that all about!? Magic users aren't supposed to just turn into ghouls like that, right!?
> Shaliah - Not at this speed, no.


Shaliah inadvertently confirmed they turn into ghouls eventually. If it weren't a given, Shaliah answer would be something like "No. This is new" or "Not always".

Am I hundred percent on that, no? But it fits the theme. It explains a  few questions:
Why would Pandemonium spirits give their powers to mortals?Why does Infini-ghoul talk like Cryoarmata?Why do ghouls love quests and killing?

Helping mortals allows Pandemonium spirits to get a new body to resurrect as ghouls. After that killing, doing quests allows Ghouls to unlock their abilities (see http://www.neorice.com/hoh_tobi_2470 "You have nothing going for you beyond brute strength, at least not until you succeed at your so-called mission"). 

That or just borrowing powers gives them +1 life in MMO Hero oh Hero, and they start as level 1.

----------


## Kornaki

> Finally found it.
> https://imgur.com/a/sWO8X34
> 
> I was only confused that Free magic can't use Spirit Magic. They can. I corrected myself. 
> The quote by a third party went something like "Using Spirit Magic as Free Magic user is like using a flamethrower to light a candle". I thought it implied unsafety, but it could have been just that it's wasteful.



And if there is one thing Noah is good at, it's wasting his talents, so he is definitely free magic :D

----------


## -D-

> And if there is one thing Noah is good at, it's wasting his talents, so he is definitely free magic :D


 :Small Mad: 

I think he'd have way more difficulty with spirit magic if he was Free Magic. Also, the school is able to notice free magic users.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Finally found it.
> https://imgur.com/a/sWO8X34
> 
> I was only confused that Free magic can't use Spirit Magic. They can. I corrected myself.
> The quote by a third party went something like "Using Spirit Magic as Free Magic user is like using a flamethrower to light a candle". I thought it implied unsafety, but it could have been just that it's wasteful.


Well fair thats in turn an actual author quote. While it does confirm Noah's status, it also confirms it was as such not a given thing.




> Confused isn't an insult. Everyone gets confused about something. You are, however, the only one arguing that Noah isn't Pandemonium.
> 
> It's extremely rude to assume that other party is automatically arguing in bad faith when I just picked up on clues and the general setting of the world. Many works rely on hints by the author, and authors can be long dead - i.e. not able to explain what they meant.
> Also, those fans talked to the author and have little incentive to lie and distort (yes, they can forget, but Alcemon was in contact with neo for a long time, so the chance of an error was minimized).


Confused is absolutely an insult when you use it as the explanation for why someone could possibly disagree with you. 
And heck, you didnt even pick up more clues or anything like that. The author quote directly confirmed that what i stated was correct, that it was POSSIBLE for Noah to have been a free magic user.
Just that it wasnt the case. 

And yes those fans did talk with the author. That didnt prevent quite a few of them from having their own head stuck solidly in their own bum. Seeing only what they wanted to see.
Or letting personal bias color their perception.




> Shaliah inadvertently confirmed they turn into ghouls eventually. If it weren't a given, Shaliah answer would be something like "No. This is new" or "Not always".
> 
> Am I hundred percent on that, no? But it fits the theme. It explains a few questions:
> 
>     Why would Pandemonium spirits give their powers to mortals?
>     Why does Infini-ghoul talk like Cryoarmata?
>     Why do ghouls love quests and killing?
> 
> 
> ...


"just turn into ghouls" could just as easy imply there were more to it than this. 
That some or a decent amount do is likely, that all of them do? insufficient information to confirm that. 

Also dont actually explain the relevant question, why does ghouls gets ability unlocks from doing quests.




> I think he'd have way more difficulty with spirit magic if he was Free Magic. Also, the school is able to notice free magic users.


Yeah because they spotted one of them going nuklear on a couple of thugs? 
Their way of "testing" for pandemonium magic was to throw an axe at Noah.

----------


## -D-

> Well fair thats in turn an actual author quote. While it does confirm Noah's status, it also confirms it was as such not a given thing.


It claims in the screenshot that Noah's a textbook definition of a Pandemonium user. Yes, my reasoning was a bit flawed, but intuition was on the money. 




> And heck, you didnt even pick upmore clues or anything like that. The author quote directly confirmed that what i stated was correct, that it was POSSIBLE for Noah to have been a free magic user.


I thought that you disputed my timing. On re-read, it was much worse. 

Check your glasses. Author stated that it was obvious, he wasn't trying to pull any Shenanigans with Noah. He's text book, milquetoast, square, 1-by-1 Pandemonium user. Not only that but we have detailed insight in how he operates (we see Ciel and her talks with Noah).

Yes. *Some*  *Free Magic* user *could* pretend to be Pandemonium user, but for that to work, audience would need be unfamiliar with him, for the switcheroo to work. E.g. some Heroland hero could go haha you thought I was Pandemonium mage, I was free mage all along.

Could Noah be Free Magic user that's somehow mistaken for Pandemonium? Ciel would need not to exist (or be an outside factor), and Noah would need to be either the Bloody Stupid Johnson of HoH - not capable of crafting a water walk spell, but capable to improvise evasion via mind intrusion. Or some kind of genius/idiot that is willing to risk everything by pretending he has a different set of skills, to fool someone who wants to trick someone into ??? 

Additionally whatever was used to identify Alex and other FM users had to fail for Noah, speciffically.

Or. He could be an apathetic Pandemonium child soldier.




> "just turn into ghouls" could just as easy imply there were more to it than this.


The exact condition of Mage users turning into ghouls doesn't interest me.
Even if it's something complex, given enough time, it will happen.




> Also, dont actually explain the relevant question, why does ghouls gets ability unlocks from doing quests.


Irrelevant to discussion at hand. Not enough data for speculation. 

Either the world/God(s) imposes limits on them, or they are just programs in matrix doesn't affect the way that works. I.e. give mortals power, use post mortem mortal corpses to resurrect with limitations.




> Yeah because they spotted one of them going nuklear on a couple of thugs? 
> Their way of "testing" for pandemonium magic was to throw an axe at Noah.


You are confusing royal guard with Veda project. 

Guards will apprehend magic users. Professor and Veda have their ways to determine and help Free Magic users. After all, Magic School (Veda?) helped Alex formulate her Book of Alex free magic and Bandana Girl's anti-Spirit shot. They have ways of sussing out different types of magic. 

They weren't testing Noah for Pandemonium. They tested him for reported but unknown teleport powers. Noah was in class with Spirit users and lower-grade Pandemonium.

----------


## Kornaki

This has probably been  posited before,  but has anyone considered that Noel is so effective at deceiving daddy because he's just telling the truth? Noel is the human created by Cheryl, and he doesn't want to die,  so he needs to stop her without killing her.

----------


## -D-

> This has probably been  posited before,  but has anyone considered that Noel is so effective at deceiving daddy because he's just telling the truth? Noel is the human created by Cheryl, and he doesn't want to die,  so he needs to stop her without killing her.


It would be a twist, but wouldn't Malhart blocking Chernyl's power cause Noel to disappear as well?

Even if he's Chernyl's dream made manifest, why would Malhart power block everything other than him? It's more plausible that he's just her friend that was exposed to Chernyl's magic and like the kids in Black Crystal mines got immune to it.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic :Small Eek: 

It's alright. Everything's fine. Not like I need to sleep. Ever again.  :Small Eek:

----------


## -D-

> New comic
> 
> It's alright. Everything's fine. Not like I need to sleep. Ever again.


Not sure what's scarier. Having your parents eaten in front of you? Or seeing it and not crying?  :Small Eek:

----------


## Ibrinar

> Not sure what's scarier. Have your parents eaten in front of you? Or seeing it and not crying?


I think my parents have regularly eaten in front of me, during dinner and stuff. It was hard but I survived.

Seriously though he is surprisingly well adjusted for what nightmare his childhood was.

----------


## -D-

> I think my parents have regularly eaten in front of me, during dinner and stuff. It was hard but I survived.


Damn dude. My condolences :P




> Seriously though he is surprisingly well adjusted for what nightmare his childhood was.


Not sure if well adjusted, is the right word. He may be a sociopath or just shocked mute.

----------


## lord_khaine

Im not certain sociopath is quite fitting? Suffering from repressed trauma? i bet.
But Noah was the star pupil at one of the most prestigeous schools. 
And seemed to care both for his fellow orphans, as well as for the Empire's enslaved soldiers.

----------


## TeChameleon

This isn't terribly relevant, but I just noticed how huge those hearts are.  They'd have to come out of someone... what, about 12 feet tall, maybe 15(?) to be to scale.

And yeah, lot of sympathy for Noel here.  Poor kid has already lived a nightmare, and he's not even 20 yet.

----------


## -D-

Noel is about to pop Noah's weak-ass for asking too many questions.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well yeah. That or just tell him off slightly harder than need be.
On the other hand. I guess Noah is so dense, less would not register.

----------


## Grim Portent

If Noel ever gets into a stable and healthier life situation, he's going to need some intense therapy.

----------


## Kantaki

> If Noel ever gets into a stable and healthier life situation, he's going to need some intense therapy.


Eh, Noel's therapists are gonna need therapists, but in this case Noah had it coming.

In fact this has to be the calmest, exceedingly polite snapping at someone I've ever seen.

Which is just more evidence he needs therapy.

But wow. Noah tends to be blunt to the point of being impolite (or vice versa?), but this is a new low.

_Yes, Noah_, he did what the Nightmare wanted. Because otherwise he'd be _dead_.
_Like everyone else it got its claws on._

Also, Noel should be careful with the d-word.
It might come back and maybe reconsider the whole plan.

----------


## lord_khaine

Im kinda assuming Malhart has already been doing what its possible to do. 

By all account Noel has killed off a decent bit of his emotional capacity.
Though thats still better than the alternative. 
And at least he still has a sense of right and wrong.

----------


## -D-

> If Noel ever gets into a stable and healthier life situation, he's going to need some intense therapy.


Outside escaping Justopeia, I kinda doubt it.

----------


## -D-

Oh sweet. 

Nightmare-induced hallucinations beyond my wildest dreams.

----------


## Kantaki

If it wasn't for the face plant I'd question when Noah was replaced.
Our favorite non-tagonist almost looked cool here.

----------


## Kornaki

Today I discovered there's a coldplay song called daddy,  and I wonder if hoh's daddy is loosely based on this (or at least the summoning song)

----------


## lord_khaine

It can be its the source of cherryls nightmare about daddy :D

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> Today I discovered there's a coldplay song called daddy,  and I wonder if hoh's daddy is loosely based on this (or at least the summoning song)


I've actually not heard that song before! It's so sad haha.

The main inspiration for the little song to summon Daddy *Spoiler*
Show

was mostly urban myths like Bloody Mary, where you say a rhyme or phrase to make a monster or ghost appear.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well for those of us who are old enough.
There is also that movie about.. who was it.. the candyman?

----------


## -D-

> Well for those of us who are old enough.
> There is also that movie about.. who was it.. the candyman?


Ah yes. Caddyman. If you say put three time, he comes with his golf cart, and assists you for the rest of the day.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Ah yes. Caddyman. If you say put three time, he comes with his golf cart, and assists you for the rest of the day.


And the horror part is.. he FORCES YOU TO PLAY GOLF! No cheating! No quitting before done!

----------


## Gez

> And the horror part is.. he FORCES YOU TO PLAY GOLF! No cheating! No quitting before done!


That explains why this game just appeared on GOG.

----------


## Kantaki

New chapter

*Spoiler*
Show

This game is taking "pay to win" a bit to far.
At thus point I wouldn't be surprised if there's another fee once they've past the lifts.

Which makes sense I guess, it's not actually a game after all.
They don't want them to leave.

Oh well, money and keywords, should be easy, right?
Though I think Mr Green might be somewhat misleading regarding why he won't pay the exit fee.

----------


## Grim Portent

> New chapter
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> This game is taking "pay to win" a bit to far.
> At thus point I wouldn't be surprised if there's another fee once they've past the lifts.
> 
> Which makes sense I guess, it's not actually a game after all.
> ...


*Spoiler*
Show

Perhaps, but giving someone a rule that says they can't spend money in a game where you need to spend money to survive seems on brand. It fosters resentment and distrust.

----------


## Kornaki

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Perhaps, but giving someone a rule that says they can't spend money in a game where you need to spend money to survive seems on brand. It fosters resentment and distrust.


*Spoiler*
Show

 on the other hand claiming such a rule exists would be very on brand for the participants of the game. 

Oh no, someone else has to buy my way out or my  head will explode! Help me paladin!

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah no. Mr Green is it seems quite aware of just how dangerous this just became.
It seems unlike he would not be ready to comtribute ½ his wealth for a bigger chance to get out.
certainly it seems a LOT more likely, there is indeed some dumb rule. 

Also called this quite a while ago.
Or well. My theory was this was a sociological experiment of some kind. 
Lacked the background knowledge that anti-magic research is forbidden.
So thats what its actually about.

Also. unexpected plot twist. The cop isnt actually a cop.
Still do wonder about what he is doing.

----------


## Gez

> Also. unexpected plot twist. The cop isnt actually a cop.
> Still do wonder about what he is doing.


We've known that since the Second Passengers chapter. Notably from this page and the recent one that he's tracking a suspected black crystal smuggler and he was lead to believe he would find the suspect in this "game".

----------


## lord_khaine

Oh.. yeah thats also true. Been so long i forgot that little twist.

Well also re-reading stuff.
Whats the deal with Alfen now i wonder?
He was feeding Icy information http://neorice.com/hoh_2320. 
But also tries to get in the way of Burk. And seemed in on everything. 
What do people think?

----------


## -D-

Hm. Interesting chapter. Also, magic users become a ghoul on the level of decade  :Small Eek: ? Wtf?! I would expect to see a lot more ghouls going around.

----------


## TeChameleon

> Hm. Interesting chapter. Also, magic users become a ghoul on the level of decade ? Wtf?! I would expect to see a lot more ghouls going around.


Agreed that it's an interesting chapter, although I'm not too sorry to see this arc go by the wayside (hopefully)- curious to see how Tobi does somewhere other than Lorg.

And on the ghoul thing, who knows?  Maybe cremation is more common for magic users?

----------


## Kornaki

> Oh.. yeah thats also true. Been so long i forgot that little twist.
> 
> Well also re-reading stuff.
> Whats the deal with Alfen now i wonder?
> He was feeding Icy information http://neorice.com/hoh_2320. 
> But also tries to get in the way of Burk. And seemed in on everything. 
> What do people think?


Alfen is owned by mastermind. I think he is trying to be his own person within the confines of the contract, but that is limiting and results in betraying his friends frequently.

----------


## Kantaki

New chapter the second

Well,  that went reasonably well.
Also, I like the hopelessly misplaced optimism here.
"Eh, we can take her". :Small Amused:

----------


## lord_khaine

Well. I actually like their logic. 
Yes it shuts down their magic power. But it still leaves them as 3 battle hardend veteran fighters.
And a guy with a pink hat.

----------


## Kornaki

> Well. I actually like their logic. 
> Yes it shuts down their magic power. But it still leaves them as 3 battle hardend veteran fighters.
> And a guy with a pink hat.


They are surprisingly willing to give up their magic forever to do this.  I think they don't actually understand the full risk here.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> They are surprisingly willing to give up their magic forever to do this.  I think they don't actually understand the full risk here.


I think they feel that if the esper is dead and the contracts destroyed, their magic will return.

----------


## Kornaki

> I think they feel that if the esper is dead and the contracts destroyed, their magic will return.


And when the esper declares that to be false (whether they're lying or not), this could get very hairy very fast.

----------


## lord_khaine

It seems kinda unlikely the heroes will fall for such an obvious bluff. 
Quite likely its enough to break either the contract or the Esper.
The heroes certainly seems to think so. And they know more about magic.

Edit.
Early chapter drop.
Well dam this was unexpected.

----------


## Kantaki

That went about as well as expected.
I guess Evyle's contracts allow her to use the magic as well as shut it down?
Scary power that.

----------


## TeChameleon

Evyle seemed to be implying that there was something other than the contracts in play.  Although if the contracts allow her to 'echo' the hero's powers, yeesh.  With 500 to pick and choose from, she's probably got some pretty broken combos in there.

That aside, I have to wonder who she has photos of to be able to slip her quasi-magic contracts into the Heroland standard paperwork  :Small Confused:

----------


## lord_khaine

Im not certain if its possible to be both an Esper and a magic user.
I kinda assume its not, that the 2 things are opposed.

So yeah. Initial assumption becomes she somehow siphon magic from the contracts. 
We did see that while Noel cant produce the raw material himself, then he was still quite adapt at manipulating it.

----------


## Kornaki

The way she uses the word humans,  I wonder if she is one herself.  Perhaps a very well put together ghoul? Or an elf?

----------


## lord_khaine

It could also just be that she does take every single chance she gets to kick a puppy.

----------


## Forum Explorer

My money is on the idea that Evyle has been experimenting with magic and ghouls in order to grant magical power to people. The magic pigs were just a prototype. She's the final product.

----------


## Kantaki

Somehow Noah floating surrounded by a aura of power is just funny. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Grim Portent

Gaston has a point here. While I am loathe to condone killing a child who is blameless for these horrors, there are few viable alternatives to stop this happening again in future.

If they had some black crystal they could use to negate her powers in the long term and were able to guarantee that it could be readministered as necessary then there would perhaps be some merit to sparing her, but with what we know it's not going to be possible for Noel to keep her powers under forever, certainly not without a substantial hit to both their qualities of life.

Malhart's magical paint was Chernyl's best hope for a relatively normal life, but even that was hardly going to last forever. Malhart is not a young man, and none of his gang of mages really seem fit for stopping Chernyl except Noel, who needs direct line of sight to do it which is hardly a suitable replacement.

----------


## TeChameleon

The counter to that is the equally grim possibility that killing Chernyl won't stop all of this.  It's been stated that at least a couple of her most powerful nightmares stayed active even with her powers suppressed.  That... can't be a good thing.

*EDIT*- I'm still wondering if the nightmares are just manifestations of Chernyl's psyche; they've been so varied... and frankly so universally violent... that it seems to me that, unless Chernyl is _incredibly_ disturbed- like, Joker-level disturbed- they're simply hostile spirits taking advantage of her abilities to cross over into the material world.

Obviously, I could very easily be wrong, but that's my take on it thus far.

----------


## Gez

> The counter to that is the equally grim possibility that killing Chernyl won't stop all of this.  It's been stated that at least a couple of her most powerful nightmares stayed active even with her powers suppressed.  That... can't be a good thing.


There's another potential problem with killing Chernyl to solve the problem, that we as reader should know about**: the high probability that a dead Chernyl would give rise to Chernoghoul.

Granted, Infoghoul hasn't exhibited the same powers that Infinite had. But until we know more about how ghouls are formed and how much of their host body's powers they have, that would remain a subject of worry.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> The counter to that is the equally grim possibility that killing Chernyl won't stop all of this.  It's been stated that at least a couple of her most powerful nightmares stayed active even with her powers suppressed.  That... can't be a good thing.
> 
> *EDIT*- I'm still wondering if the nightmares are just manifestations of Chernyl's psyche; they've been so varied... and frankly so universally violent... that it seems to me that, unless Chernyl is _incredibly_ disturbed- like, Joker-level disturbed- they're simply hostile spirits taking advantage of her abilities to cross over into the material world.
> 
> Obviously, I could very easily be wrong, but that's my take on it thus far.


It would shut down the vast majority of the nightmares though, and would dramatically reduce the number of people dying. After all, Haven was a pretty prosperous city, even with Chernyl living in it. 




> There's another potential problem with killing Chernyl to solve the problem, that we as reader should know about**: the high probability that a dead Chernyl would give rise to Chernoghoul.
> 
> Granted, Infoghoul hasn't exhibited the same powers that Infinite had. But until we know more about how ghouls are formed and how much of their host body's powers they have, that would remain a subject of worry.


We really don't know enough about that for it to be a concern at all to be frank. There are way too many potential factors for it to influence this decision.

----------


## Kornaki

There are already a bunch of magic users who could destroy a city,  and no ghouls running around destroying cities,  so I think they can worry about the ghoul later.

----------


## lord_khaine

The ghoul event does seem less of an issue.
Since at least we didnt observe InfinityGhoul display any magic powers.
All the same when Chernyl dies its likely a good idea to cremate the corpse.
But i assume all magic users are when possible.

Also no. This is of course basically the classic trolley dilemma. 
Kill 1 to save a hundred or more. 

Except the problem is Noel is her friend. 
And influenced by a great humanitarian like Malhard. 

While the military want to use her as a weapon. 
so no wonder Gaston is one of the first people to point out the logical solution. 
He is a classic hero type. Of the kind that makes hard choices.

In the end its likely a topic that will need more into first.
Quite possible Chernyl would want to die herself. If she blame herself for the mess.
And dont have a chance of learning control.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> The ghoul event does seem less of an issue.
> Since at least we didnt observe InfinityGhoul display any magic powers.
> All the same when Chernyl dies its likely a good idea to cremate the corpse.
> But i assume all magic users are when possible.
> 
> Also no. This is of course basically the classic trolley dilemma. 
> Kill 1 to save a hundred or more. 
> 
> Except the problem is Noel is her friend. 
> ...


It is a slight difference from a normal trolley dilemma in that there is no set amount of people who will die if you spare the one. So long as Chernyl lives she will spawn nightmares which will in turn kill people. It's not a one and done event. It's 'people will continue to die in horrific ways until this person dies'

Of course it is more complex in that maybe they can potentially disable her. Maybe. So do you risk the lives of who knows how many people in order to maybe save one life? I'd say one innocent, but lets be honest, we don't actually know anything about Chernyl as a person. She could be an absolutely wretched individual.

----------


## Kantaki

Heal all ailments through dental surgery?
Well, I guess if all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a water melon. :Small Amused:

----------


## lord_khaine

That thing is freaking horrible.
Best argument for nuking haven so far.

----------


## TeChameleon

> Heal all ailments through dental surgery?
> Well, I guess if all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a water melon.


When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like Loki  :Small Wink: 

If the guy in the chair is anything to go by, this thing does very... thorough... dental surgery  :Small Eek:

----------


## Ailurus

Noel brought the dentist up before, way back near the beginning of the nightmare arc.  So apparently he's been doing his thorough cleanings for quite a while.

----------


## -D-

> Heal all ailments through dental surgery?
> Well, I guess if all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a water melon.


What is a miner, but a dentist for rocks? 
What is a brain surgeon, but a dentist for brains?

----------


## Kantaki

Can't run from medical problems, sure.
Can run from the one trying to cause them though.

You just need to be faster than whoever's with you.
On a second thought being fastest is bad too.
Let someone else run into the next horror. :Small Amused:

----------


## lord_khaine

> When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like Loki


Hah xD

Possibly because if you have a hammer, there is a non-zero chance every problem can be traced back to Loki.

Also. Seems like Noel is about to skateboard Noah away?
Didnt sound like fighting was an option.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

A dignified and cool looking way to travel. :Small Cool: 
Well, for Noel at least. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## lord_khaine

Called it :D

Lets see if they get away with it.

----------


## Gez

Surprise chapter drop, starting here.

We get more of what everyone wants, dentistry and nightmare politics.

As in, political intrigue among nightmares.

----------


## Kantaki

I like this Grey Child fellow.
"Since you can neither agree nor disagree with my offer I'm just going through with it. Don't you dare break our deal.
Also, greet mom for me."  :Small Big Grin: 

Seriously though, that one scares me.
Not sure whether fulfilling the deal or breaking it would be worse.
On the plus side maybe Noah finally uses his power again.

----------


## Frozenstep

> I like this Grey Child fellow.
> "Since you can neither agree nor disagree with my offer I'm just going through with it. Don't you dare break our deal.


Noah, as usual, does nothing, has no choices, and still manages to passively tumble into centerstage of political intrigue beyond his understanding. Poor guy.  

So if I'm understanding right, 15 minutes have passed for Gazz/Noel? No wonder Noel is suspicious.

----------


## lord_khaine

Yeah the grey-out was a timestop. That brought Gazz and Noel enough time to find Noah.
This chapter drop really was a hell of a ride with implications for the future. 
Most of all on what the heck is going on with the Gray Child.

And also what the Hollowman have in store. 
By the sound of it, it knows about basically everything except Noahs power.
And to be fair. Thats one of the best kept secrets.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Yeah the grey-out was a timestop. That brought Gazz and Noel enough time to find Noah.
> This chapter drop really was a hell of a ride with implications for the future. 
> Most of all on what the heck is going on with the Gray Child.
> 
> And also what the Hollowman have in store. 
> By the sound of it, it knows about basically everything except Noahs power.
> And to be fair. Thats one of the best kept secrets.


Noah's only decision has been to not use his power and it's good to see it working out for him.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Daffy Dutch

Huh dang, I haven't read a sprite comic since 8bit theater ended. The art on this one looks pretty quality, I'll have to check this out.

----------


## TeChameleon

> Huh dang, I haven't read a sprite comic since 8bit theater ended. The art on this one looks pretty quality, I'll have to check this out.


It's solid throughout, and the storyline has been a pretty good ride so far, too.

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> Huh dang, I haven't read a sprite comic since 8bit theater ended. The art on this one looks pretty quality, I'll have to check this out.



I hope you enjoy it if you do decide to give it a read! Always nice to have a new reader onboard.  :Small Cool: 




> It's solid throughout, and the storyline has been a pretty good ride so far, too.


And thank you a lot, Chameleon!  :Small Smile:

----------


## Gez

New chapter drop today, this time on Tobi's side of the story, which is named "Maze". Though in the archive it gets called "the nightmare continues" which kind of sounds more like the next Noah chapter honestly... Though it does also fit the mysterious game that Tobi plays, especially when you get to Shalhia's part of the chapter...

----------


## lord_khaine

Massive degree of little twists dropped in our lap.
Or well. Tobi being smart isnt the biggest twist.
But whats going on with the paladin is an interesting development.

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> New chapter drop today, this time on Tobi's side of the story, which is named "Maze". Though in the archive it gets called "the nightmare continues" which kind of sounds more like the next Noah chapter honestly... Though it does also fit the mysterious game that Tobi plays, especially when you get to Shalhia's part of the chapter...


I accidentally mislabeled the page, sadly I still don't have an edit button for those type of mistakes LOL. Enjoy the chapter drops the next few days though!

----------


## Kornaki

> I accidentally mislabeled the page, sadly I still don't have an edit button for those type of mistakes LOL. Enjoy the chapter drops the next few days though!


The pace of your production is ridiculous.

----------


## lord_khaine

hah! "if things are going swimmingly taking down Burk"  :Small Big Grin: 
Quite interesting what the heck Evilette is setting in motion now.
It does look like a big double cross of some sort.

While for Burk. With the revelation that all Espers are not alike.
It seems increasingly likely thats just his secret.
He nullified magic that directly contacts him.

Or well. partly explains him.
Dont explain his superhuman feat. 
But perhaps he is just meant to be peak human, Captain America style.

----------


## Gez

Executive Call, today's chapter drop.

----------


## TeChameleon

> And thank you a lot, Chameleon!


Honestly?  Just calling 'em like I see 'em.  I'm enjoying both art and story, so I'm not going to downplay it.

And tensions are pretty high in all three storylines right now- Noah's lost and unconscious(?) in the dark with injured or near-powerless allies (Noel can't do much without an external source of spirit), Tobi's getting some undesired attention, separated from her most trustworthy (probably?) ally and still in a death game, and while Burke is having considerable fun, he's still in jeopardy and his allies are deep in it.

----------


## Neoriceisgood

> The pace of your production is ridiculous.


Haha, thanks! I do try to keep a good pace to my production so readers get to read the story at a pace that's *enjoyable*.
I read and/or used to read several webcomics that either always had pacing issues or ended up having major pacing issues in their lifetime,
so I do know how unpleasant it can feel to sorta be stuck in a story and having to wait months or even years to make any meaningful progress.

This goes double when you have split perspectives or several storylines (I know this makes the situation for some works like Goblins particularly rough as it has split perspectives -and- a slow update rate.)

Ever since I rebooted from aptGG I've tried to do my best to make speed a pivotal part of my style/creation process (biggest reason for the much simpler style compared to what that comic had at some point).





> Honestly?  Just calling 'em like I see 'em.  I'm enjoying both art and story, so I'm not going to downplay it.
> 
> And tensions are pretty high in all three storylines right now- Noah's lost and unconscious(?) in the dark with injured or near-powerless allies (Noel can't do much without an external source of spirit), Tobi's getting some undesired attention, separated from her most trustworthy (probably?) ally and still in a death game, and while Burke is having considerable fun, he's still in jeopardy and his allies are deep in it.



Aw I still appreciate it a lot! Hearing people discuss, enjoy & of course, occasionally praise my work is a big part of the fun for me in creating more content and pushing my story forward. So it always makes me happy to hear someone openly express enjoyment. 

Having the rising tension in all three arcs simultaneously wasn't entirely preplanned, but it is fun how much it synergized. I thought a bit about*Spoiler: just small spoiler for something I "Didn't do"*
Show

 potentially trying to have them all properly 'climax' at the same time too,
 but that was sadly too much of a hassle.   :Small Big Grin:

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## TeChameleon

> Haha, thanks! I do try to keep a good pace to my production so readers get to read the story at a pace that's *enjoyable*.*snip*


It's both enjoyable and really friggin' impressive.




> Aw I still appreciate it a lot! Hearing people discuss, enjoy & of course, occasionally praise my work is a big part of the fun for me in creating more content and pushing my story forward. So it always makes me happy to hear someone openly express enjoyment.


I honestly wish I could do more than _just_ express enjoyment, but funds are tight for me, so I'm gonna be as open and vocal about my enjoyment as I can  :Small Tongue: 




> Ever since I rebooted from aptGG I've tried to do my best to make speed a pivotal part of my style/creation process (biggest reason for the much simpler style compared to what that comic had at some point).


A simple style is nothing to be ashamed of; it can often allow art to be more expressive.  Scott McCloud usually describes it as 'iconic', from what I remember, and honestly?  Speaking just for myself, a lot of my very favourite artists have (deceptively) simple styles; Sergio Aragones (met him a couple of times at cons, incredibly nice, amazing guy and utterly mind-blowing artist, despite his apparently loose, cartoony drawing style), Charles Schulz (I don't think you could ever convincingly argue that Sparky's style was detailed, but those quick, simple squiggle faces conveyed immense amounts of emotion over the years), and even Stan Sakai, to a certain point (his faces are very simple, but once again, incredibly expressive).

I know a little about art- when I was younger, I desperately wanted to do a comic book, and studied it on my own, but unfortunately, I'm complete **** at backgrounds- and I can say that as far as I'm concerned, you have nothing to apologize for.

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## Gez

New drop here, "The Burk ... And the Esper!", it's about Evyle. And Burk. Can't forget Burk or he'll punch this comment.

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## Kantaki

Wow. That was brutal. :Small Eek: 
My condolences for Skystroke's future children, they shall never be. :Small Tongue: 

Gotta love Evyle though. :Small Big Grin: 
"Abandon my wicked ways? :Small Confused: 
Why do you think I named myself _evil_? :Small Amused: "

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## lord_khaine

Welp. Thats it. Comic over.
This will not be surpassed.
https://www.neorice.com/hoh_2834

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## Ailurus

> New drop here, "The Burk ... And the Esper!", it's about Evyle. And Burk. Can't forget Burk or he'll punch this comment.


It's not him punching comments that I'm concerned with now.  What he did was much much worse than punching.  

Also, Evyle either takes things very literally, or has an immensely short fuse.  Or both.

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## lord_khaine

Still respect to Skystroke for taking the fight as serious as he should. 
Just unfortunate he got distracted by the first ball. Or no. That had not been good for his skull.
As much as balls are important, skulls are more important still.

His analysis of Burk were interesting. Calling him a spirit savant.
Clearly he is the best informed person on spirit abilities we have had observe Burk so far.
Question is now if it contradict the shoulder devils.

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## Neoriceisgood

http://neorice.com/hoh_noah_2861

Final drop starts here! Not an entire chapter but still a decent amount of content!

Hope you guys all enjoyed the numerous drops! Over a 100 pages posted total this week.  :Small Eek:

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## lord_khaine

It has been an early christmas present.

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## TeChameleon

Definitely enjoying it.

And when the threads eventually come together, I think meeting Burk is going to give Noah an aneurysm.

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## lord_khaine

If they come together. And if Noah actually meet Burk. And not just Gaston.
Else. Another confirmation. Catz is a free magic user.
And Malhart did train contingencies to deal with Cheryl. 
Except of course the empire screwed stuff up in the middle of their own city.

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## Welf

> Aw I still appreciate it a lot! Hearing people discuss, enjoy & of course, occasionally praise my work is a big part of the fun for me in creating more content and pushing my story forward. So it always makes me happy to hear someone openly express enjoyment.


Then have some more praise! Love your comic. 

Here some analysis: The horse riding blood nightmare said "over a thousand have fallen to my kin" since they made their way down. If I assume she means since they travlled down the hospital, and that was maybe 1 hour including the time stop, ever 3.6 seconds some person dies. 
I think you can say 150 words in one minute, so every 1.44 5.2 words someone dies. 
In the USA 22% of the population are children, or around 1 in 5, or every 6.5 23.6 words someone speaks a child dies.
Of all children about 26% are in the age group 0-4 years, or 1 in 4, so every 26 118 words spoken a small child dies. 

The last page had 44 words, so 30 8-9 humans killed, including 2 children, and 1 or 2 a 1 in 3 chance that includes a small children or toddlers.

Edit: made a wrong calculation, corrected it

Also, had that hospital a maternity ward?

I think this is the only comic I can think of where the evil, authoritarian Empire actually has a point, and blowing up a city full of people might be justified. Only WH40K has something similar.




> Wow. That was brutal.
> My condolences for Skystroke's future children, they shall never be.
> 
> Gotta love Evyle though.
> "Abandon my wicked ways?
> Why do you think I named myself _evil_?"


He'll be fine. We know that because we saw him "*many* weeks" later in one of Tobi's chapters.
Nice foreshadowing of the cats btw.




> http://neorice.com/hoh_noah_2861
> 
> Final drop starts here! Not an entire chapter but still a decent amount of content!
> 
> Hope you guys all enjoyed the numerous drops! Over a 100 pages posted total this week.


I always have a bad feeling when you drop "too many" pages. I follow webcomics since 2007 and remember the old times where hiatuses were the norm. I can never shake the fear that that means your puffer is gone. It never happened, and never will, but I made some baaaaad experiences. 




> If they come together. And if Noah actually meet Burk. And not just Gaston.
> Else. Another confirmation. Catz is a free magic user.
> And Malhart did train contingencies to deal with Cheryl. 
> Except of course the empire screwed stuff up in the middle of their own city.


The meeting will be interesting. Tobi's arc is weeks after Burks, so there needs to be a time jump. And I think we can assume that Burk is set after Noah, since Guy had to travel to a different continent to meet Burk in Eddstadt. 

It wasn't the Empire directly, it was Ms Veda. I think she had her own plans she didn't tell her superiors from the Empire about. I wonder what happened to her.

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## lord_khaine

> Here some analysis: The horse riding blood nightmare said "over a thousand have fallen to my kin" since they made their way down. If I assume she means since they travlled down the hospital, and that was maybe 1 hour including the time stop, ever 3.6 seconds some person dies.


I will point out that the main thing that was taken away from that encounter was "dont thrust nightmares"  :Small Tongue: 

But yeah. It has been commented a few times already, most recently after the dentist. That perhaps blowing up the city wasnt a over reaction after all to Cheryl getting unleashed.




> He'll be fine.


We do know spirit healing is a thing. 
Skystroke looks like a rather adept spirit user. At least from how casually he Spirit Purged that clone.
So yeah likely he makes a full recovery.




> It wasn't the Empire directly, it was Ms Veda. I think she had her own plans she didn't tell her superiors from the Empire about. I wonder what happened to her.


Veda did have her own plans. But clearly Mission: "Murder the kind old painter and steal his adoptive kids" were authorized all the way up.
Since she had Royal Guard support to try and gank Malhart. Veda gets a double dose of blame for knowing the truth about Cheryls power but doing this anyway.

Also. I said it once before and ill repeat it. In another story Catz is the main character. 
Last we saw Catz, they were fighting their way through a military base to liberate their foster siblings and adoptive father.
Now we find Catz even further down this messed up place, trying to get to Cheryl and put an end to this.

Well i had also wondered what became of them. It seemed likely noone had made them eat black crystal with Veda not around.

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## Forum Explorer

> It wasn't the Empire directly, it was Ms Veda. I think she had her own plans she didn't tell her superiors from the Empire about. I wonder what happened to her.


My money is on her having become the Hollowman in some way shape or form. Or abducted by it at least so it could mock and torment her.

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## Gez

> My money is on her having become the Hollowman in some way shape or form. Or abducted by it at least so it could mock and torment her.


Hallowman, as in holy, not Hollowman, as in hole-y.

And it is not impossible -- he is a new nightmare, or at least one that made himself known recently so the timeline of his appearance being somehow related to Veda's capture does fit.



Meanwhile, it seems we're back to thrice-weekly updates... That's alright, winter is kind of a low point for everybody, that's why we have all these celebrations to compensate for the gloom and the cold. Have good end-of-year holidays, Neo !

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## lord_khaine

So.. Meow eye &%¤#ers  :Small Big Grin:

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## TeChameleon

Heh.  MEOW.

Can't say I blame the nightmares for being a little spooked.  Any cat big enough to make that noise is not one you want to **** with, especially since cats are one of the most perfectly-designed killing machines in nature.

Also, poor Noah.  Really hoping he's not conscious for this, it's not like he needs more trauma, yeesh.

----------


## lord_khaine

Sadly i dont think Noah can get enough trauma in this story.

But at the same time. Interesting development. 
What is going on with Catz. Is there more than one of them?
Are they twins?

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## Kantaki

> Sadly i dont think Noah can get enough trauma in this story.
> 
> But at the same time. Interesting development. 
> What is going on with Catz. Is there more than one of them?
> Are they twins?


I think Catz just has company and they reacted to the "Is he dead" line.
Basically, the buff cat got turned into a (video) phone, but without a speaker/screen function Team Noel and whoever is on the other end only get Catz part of the conservation.

Catz is definitely the coolest free(?) magic user so far. :Small Cool:

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## lord_khaine

I have said it before and i will gladly state it again.
Gaston and Catz are the heroic shonen protagonists we didnt get because this follows Noah instead xD

But yeah i see. Initially i got confused because the different color speach seemed to indicate 2 people.
Though no it is just Catz with someone else.

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## TeChameleon

Catz is a piece of work, alright.  Although I have to say, that's... not exactly how I imagined a cat of any sort would take out the nightmares.

And I love that this follows Noah.  We've seen the heroic journey through shonen tropes many times before.  The snarky bystander dragged into things against his will is (in my opinion) much funnier.

... that being said, something that is bothering me from a few strips back; Ciel is supposedly an extension of Noah's abilities, no?  How is she so active while Noah is _non compos mentis_?  How much autonomy does she *have*?

----------


## Grim Portent

I think Ciel is a chaos spirit that was made (or summoned) by Noah's wish for an instruction manual, at least Noel seems to think she's something independant of Noah and potentially dangerous. Her autonomy is probably the same as any other spirit, it's just that most mages who have similar entities attached to them can't see or hear them,* and Noah is ignorant enough that he doesn't know any better.

Ciel might not either if she was made by Noah's power rather than existing beforehand, or she could be hiding her actual knowledge (and goals) behind a facade.


*Based on a sample size of one admittedly, but Infinite didn't seem aware of his spirit, and it seems like it isn't common knowledge among magic users which you'd think it was if every mage in the subset who have them was aware of it.

----------


## lord_khaine

We really dont have enough evidence to form any sort of conclusion on Ciel.

But from what we have seen from Chernyl, it seems clear mages can create/summon independent sentient spirit entities.
And so it seems plausible Ciel is just like the nightmares. 

Except with another purpose. It being to act as a guide for Noah/keep him alive. (not an easy task)
Certain it seems clear she has whats best for him in mind. Even when Noah dont always have the same due to apathy.

----------


## Welf

> I will point out that the main thing that was taken away from that encounter was "dont thrust nightmares"


I wanted to say "why would they lie?", but since that nightmare just tried to make Noel and Gaston fight, they do have a reason. And it's suspicious that they would give Gaston and Noel reason to just kill Chernyl.

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## lord_khaine

Yeah thats the problem.
The nightmares are sociopathic monsters of the worst kind.
If they can gain an advantage by lying it seems clear they will.
And hyping up the danger Cheryl poses could have spiked a fight had Gaston not been smart about it.

----------


## Kornaki

Catz might tip the balance on the question of whether they kill Chernyl. I wonder how they will feel about it.

----------


## lord_khaine

I cant see what the pacifist who made bubble cats will pick, is a question  :Small Tongue: 
What the real question is i think, is if Cherryl want to continue living after this.

----------


## Welf

Well, Catz certainly is powerful, but he is not good at following simple instructions.

----------


## Kantaki

I'm just guessing, but Catz might not be a Int-based caster. :Small Big Grin: 
Could be Wisdom, but my money is on Charisma. :Small Tongue:

----------


## lord_khaine

Ehh.. its actually harder than it seems, flawlessly repeating a message you hear without any warning.
So far Catz has given the impression of being a fairly effective individual. 
I certainly think his escapes from the military base were pretty quick witted.

----------


## Grim Portent

He's also trying to pay attention to two seperate groups of people at once, anyone who's been on a phone call while someone else in the room won't stalk talking knows that to be hard.

Funnily enough had that experience just yesterday, my gran kept talking over my brother while I was on the phone because she's deaf and couldn't figure out I was on the phone. Made it nearly impossible to keep track of what my brother was saying even when I could hear him.

----------


## Welf

> Ehh.. its actually harder than it seems, flawlessly repeating a message you hear without any warning.
> So far Catz has given the impression of being a fairly effective individual. 
> I certainly think his escapes from the military base were pretty quick witted.


Noel did warn Catz and told him to repeat the message word by word. I think Catz is very creative and a quick thinker, but not a focused person.

I just noticed Noah keeps bleeding from his mouth. I'm not a doctor, but that doesn't seem healthy.  :Small Eek:

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## lord_khaine

Its hardly warning when its in the same sentence. And Catz are already talking to both a "phone" and a person besides him.

But he still saves the day! 
Newer has it been so convenient to transport Noah around!

----------


## Kantaki

Maybe Noah's next wish should be that Ciel can carry him around. :Small Big Grin: 
More convenient for everyone else. :Small Tongue:

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## Gez

> Maybe Noah's next wish should be that Ciel can carry him around.
> More convenient for everyone else.


But then he wouldn't get to share such a buff green bod! If Burk were here, he'd totally say to keep with the current Mewdroid plan instead.

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## lord_khaine

To be honest. Noahs main contribution is providing information, and being a spirit source for Noel.
His main liability is the need to protect his physical body.

This is possibly the ultimate version of Noah.
A secondary head on a massive buff cat body, to provide snark or warnings.

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## Kantaki

> To be honest. Noahs main contribution is providing information, and being a spirit source for Noel.
> His main liability is the need to protect his physical body.
> 
> This is possibly the ultimate version of Noah.
> A secondary head on a massive buff cat body, to provide snark or warnings.


Well, no. Not as long as he has that torture device in his mouth. :Small Amused: 
Oh wait. You were talking about _Ciel_. :Small Tongue: 
In that case, yes. Yes, this might be Noah's ultimate form. :Small Big Grin:

----------


## lord_khaine

This even cuts down on the snark!

Or well. It would not be a thing anyway now i think about it. 
Since he is seemingly unconscious from spirit use.
Looking back at the comic, he did save the team with an unexpected float bubble.
But seemingly knocked himself out with it.

----------

