# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > Older D&D/AD&D and Other Systems >  Warhammer 40k Wrath and Glory - is it any good?

## Quertus

So, I know almost nothing about the two (?) products with this name. Apparently, one is an updated version of the other, created by a different company?

I think they use d6s like White Wolf / WoD uses d10s, with a general attribute + skill dice pool, except when they say difficulty number, they mean number of successes needed, nor target number. (The what counts as a success is static?) Which is meh. Sounds serviceable, so long as were playing modules, and not counting on the GM to have any clue how math and probability work?

The new version, at least, has a concept of Tiers of play, so you can play Space Marines and guardsmen with the same system, without having the complete imbalance of a Space Marine standing next to a raw recruit guardsman.

Oh, and you arent limited to playing as an Imperial (!).

And thats about all I know.

Is it any good? Has anyone played with it to explain more about it? (Does it even have Psykers? What little Ive heard hasnt mentioned them. If it does, can they still one bad roll means death or even TPK?) Whats the overall experience like?

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## Anonymouswizard

It's basically an attempt to do the five previous 40k RPGs in one book, and thus fairly crunchy. I own both versions, and the Cubicle 7 edition is much improved over the original (better layout, every archetype gets it's own page, some tweaks to rules and character building maths).

The tiers of play thing is roughly similar to how mixing the previous RPGs worked. Tier 1 is normal folks and starting Inquisitorial cells; Tier 2 is rogue traders, Sisters of Battle, Space Marine Trainees, and experienced Accolytez; Tier 3 is full Space Marines and Tech Priests; and Tier 4 is full blown Inquisitors. Playing a character from a lower Tier requires you to purchase an Ascension Package where you trade some of your CP for a bunch of bonuses and drawbacks.

I'll note that, with the corebook archetypes, Space Marines lag behind specialised humans in at keast Tier 3.  You're great at both melee and ranged combat, but humans will be able to pick one and beat you. Plus while a lasgun might suck compared to a bolter at Tier 3 that's unlikely to be all a Guardsman is carrying (IG characters get a special talent that replaces their main weapon with a special gun, and one of the Ascension Packages let's you pick up two more weapons). Don't try to build your Space Marine as a better gunner than a Stormtrooper until you have access to a Devestator archetype (or just go free form in 2e).

Otherwise it's mostly fine. There's not much that makes it stand out.

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## Beleriphon

> I'll note that, with the corebook archetypes, Space Marines lag behind specialised humans in at keast Tier 3.  You're great at both melee and ranged combat, but humans will be able to pick one and beat you. Plus while a lasgun might suck compared to a bolter at Tier 3 that's unlikely to be all a Guardsman is carrying (IG characters get a special talent that replaces their main weapon with a special gun, and one of the Ascension Packages let's you pick up two more weapons). Don't try to build your Space Marine as a better gunner than a Stormtrooper until you have access to a Devestator archetype (or just go free form in 2e).


That seems completely reasonable. I'd assume that the Space Marine however has way better stock armour options.

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## Lord Raziere

> That seems completely reasonable. I'd assume that the Space Marine however has way better stock armour options.


......about that....human specialties don't just guardsman or some random scum from the gutter. it means Sororitas, Inquisitors and such.

and Sororitas and Inquisitors get power armor that is just as protective as Astartes power armor. now the Astartes armor to be fair, is stronger in a pure lifting strength sense, and their heaviest armor goes up to a protective value of 7 while the heaviest human option only goes up to 6, which is a difference but much slighter than you'd think.

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## Anonymouswizard

> That seems completely reasonable. I'd assume that the Space Marine however has way better stock armour options.


At Tier 3? I think only the Bolter Bitches and Tech-Priests catch up in the corebook. Tier 4 adds Inquisitors, who can pretty much ware any armour in the book and be lore accurate, although as has been said Marine armour gives you a slight bonus to trench digging (now if we only had some Iron Warriors).

Basically in the transition from Deathwatch to Wrath and Glory Marines lost all the little traits that let them punch much further than their raw Attributes implied, and their equipment was scaled down to almost the same level as humans. It's like trying to have a party with Quatermass and Golden Age Superman, and they've go e for Superman being a letdown.

They're also practically at the starting CP values for their respective tiers, which means they can't even branch out. So you'd better hope that somebody else isn't bringing in a Guardsman or Ork to serve as a party warrior, let alone a SoB. But again the issue is the enforced versatility, they really should have dropped the Stupid Marines and used the page count to add Assault Marines and Devestators (which would also help with all-Marine games).

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## Sarone

I am still waiting for the Tau Empire expansion.

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## Faily

Have played a couple of missions in WanG, and I think it's a perfectly fine "beer & pretzels"-type of game. If you want a WH40k game that captures the grimdark and high lethality of the setting, I don't feel like this is it, but it is absolutely entertaining and easy to play. Character creation is relatively straight forward with packages and such. Some weapons are pretty OP though, and if the GM wants to balance things a bit more, should definitively keep things like plasma off the table for players, at least to start with. This depends on which Tier of play though (we have been playing Tier 1 Astra Militarum).

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## Anonymouswizard

Eh, plasma is pretty high-end anti-armour stuff, if you use it on small fry you'll be sorry when the Chaos Space Marines come calling.

Also a standard PC party of Guardsmen could very easily have a large number of big guns. Back in my day Imperial Guard didn't put specialist weapons into normal squads, but into six man heavy/special weapons teams that consisted of three gunners and three loaders/spotters, which you could take along with a couple of basic infantry squads for a single troop choice. It's highly likely that IG PCs are such a team, I'd argue for Veterans but 100CP isn't even an average Guardsman. Plasma, melta, heavy stubbers, and whatever other weapons you think of all have their place.

I'd argue the issue is more with the ammunition rules. Because ammo is generic there's no reason to hold off on the big guns until you're starting to run low (at which point that Reliable lasgun starts showing it's worth again). I'd argue for having to track ammunition for powerful weapons separately from that for standard small arms, although probably just in two pools to reduce bookkeeping for PCs with a lot of guns.

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## Lord Torath

If anyone is interested, Wrath and Glory is currently available on Humble Bundle.  $18 for the whole shebang. (I'm not affiliated with Humble Bundle or Wrath and Glory)

Edit:  In case you hadn't guessed, the Humble Bundle I linked to is long expired now.

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## DeMouse

I'm interested in what people think of it too. I know the Fantasy Flight 40k stuff by heart so I haven't bothered looking in to Wrath or Glory yet. Nothing I have heard about me makes me think it is worth changing over.

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