# Forum > Gaming > Gaming (Other) >  Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

## Wraith

> Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground
> 
> *I'm new to the hobby. How do I start?*
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> The best and most obvious way to start is either the _Elite_- or _Command Edition_s of the starter set. This will get you a solid and relatively cheap start on either an Adeptus Astartes* army, or a Necrons army. If you aren't starting the game with a friend, you can almost always offload the 'other side' that you don't want to recoup some of your money back. If you don't want to play Adeptus Astartes or Necrons, you will almost definitely want to look into _Combat Patrol_ boxes - with a few exceptions.
> 
> *Due to how GW uses the same Astartes models across several different Chapters that all play very differently, some of the models will not be suited to the Chapter of Space Marines that you might want to play. Be wary. When buying the starter sets, they really lend themselves towards playing:
> ...


PLEASE NOTE: Blue Text (for sarcasm) is typically not in play in this thread, because pretty much all of it is sarcasm and/or petty whining about toy soldiers. It's all meant in good humour and none of it should be taken seriously, so please feel free to join in with the banter.  :Small Smile: 

Last time on 40k-in-the-Playground
Games Workshop initiates a price hike, and everyone hates it... except maybe the Australians, since now *everyone* gets to pay the same prices that they have for the last decade, and more.Toy Soldiers Is Serious Business - Maybe we did take that "Aeldari players are heartless monsters" joke a little bit too far....Codex Tyranids (9th) has just been announced. The FO chart has a much-needed update, a fan-favourite character makes its table-top debut, and even though we all like Ravenors NO-ONE has admitted to having bought any.

We now return to your regularly scheduled grim-darkness.

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## LeSwordfish

I think 40k isn't in danger of ending up in a Mortal Wounds Meta - AOS has far more of them, and far greater access to easy +1 to save. It also has less super-high damage (railguns etc) but has more mid-level damage, with greater access to 5-6ish damage attacks. There's a few things that skew badly in a Mortal Wounds direction (Sentinels, for example) but a lot of the really damaging things go through the normal process, and a lot of the really tough things have protections that work just as well against normal wounds (Morathi, who has a Ghazgkull-esque maximum wounds per phase rule, for example).

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## Cheesegear

> It's all meant in good humour and none of it should be taken seriously, so please feel free to join in with the banter.


Should I be reading into the fact that this is written in blue?




> Games Workshop initiates a price hike, and everyone hates it... except maybe the Australians, since now *everyone* gets to pay the same prices that they have for the last decade, and more.


Well we don't _hate_ it so much as we've moved into Stage 5; Acceptance, and a significant percentage of us have moved to 3D printers. The rest of the world is still stuck on Stage 1/2. No...See...Price hikes are good for the consumer because...Umm...During inflation...Well, you see...Errr...You don't understand business...Idiot.




> Toy Soldiers Is Serious Business


One time I was freaking the **** out. Something like 12 posts in the space of a few hours after being triggered by...Somebody. If I'm getting the date right it was probably towards 6th Ed. Somebody _else_ told me that instead of freaking out over the internet, I should maybe talk to my partner and go out for dinner, and have...Relationships. Toy soldiers are not, in fact, serious business, and the internet is not real life. How 'bout instead of being mad...Just don't?

This forum taught me that. 40K-in-the-Playground. Learning life lessons through toy soldiers.




> even though we all like Ravenors NO-ONE has admitted to having bought any.


I lol'd.

I brought it up at the end of the last thread, making a point to remember to bring it up again...




> We now return to your regularly scheduled grim-darkness.


...Which is what, exactly?

Commenting on WarCom articles is fine...Up to a point. Sometimes they spend 400 words saying nothing at all (and that's coming from me), and other times they're blatantly shilling because it's literally what it's for, and other times the only thing that can be said about some rules leak intentional advertisement, is that 'We can't comment in good faith until we know more - usually the points cost.' So I don't really like reading WarCom and I'll just address whatever happens, when it actually happens...And I'll leave the free audience shilling hype train to someone else...Unless I'm really interested (e.g; The Parasite of Mortrex looking a bit _too_ bonkers and I don't like it, despite the unique mechanics.)

I've expressed that I don't particularly like writing Guides anymore. Not because they take a long time to write (but I know that they definitely do, for others). But I don't like putting in effort to something I know will be made a waste of in only a handful of months...And no I'm not responsible enough to remember to go back and edit stuff that changes. So yeah. I'm happy to give out army building advice...But really, with the price hike and the pandemic it just doesn't look like people are even building that many armies anymore - probably because they're not playing games. Perhaps more accurately, anyone who's still in the hobby at this point already knows what they want before they buy it and they don't need _my_ help.

Writing battle reports, on my end, just feels boring. Tactics in 40K...Tend to be...Fixed. You build your army around Secondary Objectives, and you take the same Secondaries every single game - maybe you switch one out, but it's the for the same one you always sub out for. You can pick your Warlord Traits and Psychic Powers, so there's no randomness there, and due to how...Simplified...The game is now (if you're still playing, of course), the tactics aren't particularly brilliant; Use small arms fire to shoot small things. Use Heavy weapons to shoot big things. I've been playing 9th Ed. for a while now (my region had one lockdown that actually only lasted the promised two weeks); And I don't know what it is. Do I know too much about the game? Have I been playing for so long now that rolling triple-1s on my 2+ Armour Save, whilst rare, has statistically happened often enough that those unexpected/surprising moments are now...Boring?

Baby-Cheesegear, circa 5th Ed.; *Looks directly into the camera, makes a shocked face for the YouTube thumbnail. Freaks out puts hands in the air. Acquire Twitch Subs for 'genuine reaction.'*

Grognard-Cheesegear, circa now; {Monotone} Yep. Sure looks like Guilliman just died. That'll happen. 400-odd Points down the drain. What does 'react harder' even mean? Am I supposed to care? Doesn't this happen all the time?

Dunno. Weird. The games themselves are fun enough. _Writing_ about them, however, seems formulaic at this point.

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## LeSwordfish

> Dunno. Weird. The games themselves are fun enough. Writing about them, however, seems formulaic at this point.


A serious question: are you enjoying 40k, or are you enjoying, like, competitive sociability? How does time spent playing 40k, for you, compare to the same sort of game of Crisis Protocol or Kill Team or whatever else it is you play?

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## Wraith

> Should I be reading into the fact that this is written in blue?


Absolutely not. Subtlety is for cowards.




> Well we don't _hate_ it so much as we've moved into Stage 5; Acceptance, and a significant percentage of us have moved to 3D printers. The rest of the world is still stuck on Stage 1/2. No...See...Price hikes are good for the consumer because...Umm...During inflation...Well, you see...Errr...You don't understand business...Idiot.


I understand why GW have hiked their prices - I could give you a list of reasons as to why any company could look at the last two years and justifiably go, "This hasn't been great, we need to fix it somehow"; Business reasons, social reasons, supply/demand reasons, whatever, and the answer "Because we're a***holes and we hate you" doesn't even make the top 20. 

But I don't _like_ it. I don't like paying more money for anything, much. Monkey-brain wants to keep the shiny pebbles AND have all the bananas at the same time. The important thing to remember is the difference between monkey-brain and a constructive conversation.




> ...Which is what, exactly?


If you haven't come to the internet just to argue with idiot strangers purely for the sake of arguing, I can't help you.  :Small Wink: 




> I'll leave the free audience shilling hype train to someone else...Unless I'm really interested (e.g; The Parasite of Mortrex looking a bit _too_ bonkers and I don't like it, despite the unique mechanics.)
> 
> I've expressed that I don't particularly like writing Guides anymore. Not because they take a long time to write (but I know that they definitely do, for others). But I don't like putting in effort to something I know will be made a waste of in only a handful of months...
> 
> Dunno. Weird. The games themselves are fun enough. _Writing_ about them, however, seems formulaic at this point.


Playing games and writing about games are different parts of the hobby, and you're not required to enjoy all of them - playing/writing is the same as collecting/painting and painting/playing. Similarly, no one is required to stick with any one thing indefinitely. The GitP guides are fun and I enjoy reading them, even for factions that I know I have no interest in playing with and will never play against, because I know that the people who were (hopefully) writing them are doing so out of enthusiasm.

I, for example, like writing about 40k. That's why I'm such a pain in the butt in the 40k Lore thread, whenever we have one, even though I haven't read the last ~10 Horus Heresy novels and I'm out of the loop. I'm quite happy to write a guide when the mood strikes me and I don't mind so much when a new edition comes out and my 'hard work' is lost; I'm just typing a post on a forum, after all, not carving my philosophy into granite slabs for perpetuity.

I wrote a guide, and then when it becomes obsolete due to an edition change, I get to write another one. Yay for me! I'll take that over spending my time watching yet more friggin' cookery shows and other reality TV nonsense.

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## Cheesegear

> I understand why GW have hiked their prices - I could give you a list of reasons as to why any company could look at the last two years...


Their stock began to tank just before Christmas - and by 'tank', I mean, 'revert back to ~pre-2020.'

The pandemic, arguably, was the best thing that happened to GW in a long, long time. It's only after the pandemic is [not-officially over], that GW has begun to see...Bad Not-as-good times, as people start going back to work and hanging out with their friends on a regular basis.

Also, something, something; Emergent technology that makes your core manufacturing business obsolete.




> "Because we're a***holes and we hate you"


Again, considering how GW was lauding their own _massive_ stock inflation during 2020-21, I can't help but feel that the free market is more-or-less self-correcting. Whether or not the free market is actually 'free' (especially in the US, where I am not...), well, that's a conversation that has nothing to do with toy soldiers, so let's not worry about it.




> If you haven't come to the internet just to argue with idiot strangers purely for the sake of arguing, I can't help you.


This is one of those things. It reads like it should be written in blue text. But also how is it sarcasm when it's factually true?  :Small Wink: 




> I, for example, like writing about 40k.


Me too... That might be why I do it.  :Small Wink: 




> I wrote a guide, and then when it becomes obsolete due to an edition change


See, if it became obsolete over an edition change once every 7 5 3 2 (?) years I'd be okay with that.
The problem is that they become obsolete in less than six months. Less than _three_, in some cases.




> I'll take that over spending my time watching yet more friggin' cookery shows and other reality TV nonsense.


What?
1. Your partner wants to watch TV. Something terrible that is terrible.
2. You say 'okay' and sit on couch with laptop.
3. Pointlessly argue with strangers online.
4. Occasionally look up at the TV and/or your partner - _especially_ when they're addressing you.
5. Agree with everything your partner says, throw in a 'Did she really just do that!?' every now and then. Bonus points if you throw in a 'That's craaazyyy...'
???
7. Profit.

Another life lesson in a thread about toy soldiers.  :Small Cool: 
(Again, is the above sarcasm, or something that is absurd, but also factually true? ...We'll never know.)

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## Dragonus45

> I think 40k isn't in danger of ending up in a Mortal Wounds Meta - AOS has far more of them, and far greater access to easy +1 to save. It also has less super-high damage (railguns etc) but has more mid-level damage, with greater access to 5-6ish damage attacks. There's a few things that skew badly in a Mortal Wounds direction (Sentinels, for example) but a lot of the really damaging things go through the normal process, and a lot of the really tough things have protections that work just as well against normal wounds (Morathi, who has a Ghazgkull-esque maximum wounds per phase rule, for example).


Not yet, but I worry about it moving more and more towards that.

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## Cheesegear

> Not yet, but I worry about it moving more and more towards that.


I worry that Custodes present an nigh-insurmountable problem that can only be solved via Mortal Wounds. Custodes are 'totally beatable', which is true...Okay, _how_? The how is important. Because then you have to start looking in toolboxes and you're going to find Factions with toolboxes that are half-empty.

I worry that in order to power creep against Custodes, GW will have to release a unit or Faction that spams Mortal Wounds. Certainly, Parasite's ability to do Mortal Wounds _in the opponent's turn_, as well as turn off Objective Secured, is almost a direct counter to Custodes' Troops units, which prove to be (un)surprisingly good, even in the Troops slot. I would very much like to know the Parasite's points cost, and what if anything in the Tyranids book synergises with it - and how hard. Because if it's good against Custodes...It's probably good against everything, else, too.

I worry that if they do it _once_, they'll continue to do it more. But, it depends what - if any - lesson(s) they learned from AoS.

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## Requizen

> I worry that Custodes present an nigh-insurmountable problem that can only be solved via Mortal Wounds. Custodes are 'totally beatable', which is true...Okay, _how_? The how is important. Because then you have to start looking in toolboxes and you're going to find Factions with toolboxes that are half-empty.
> 
> I worry that in order to power creep against Custodes, GW will have to release a unit or Faction that spams Mortal Wounds.


This is always a treacherous thing. Rock-Paper-Scissors balancing seems good in concept since the factions keep themselves in balance... but it feels really crappy being Scissors when Rock is popular in the meta and Paper just got so nerfed that they aren't even seeing the table. And even in metagames with perfect balance, getting matchup hard-countered just because your army does Scissors and your opponent plays Rock, and you randomly play together, still feels terrible.

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## Forum Explorer

> I understand why GW have hiked their prices - I could give you a list of reasons as to why any company could look at the last two years and justifiably go, "This hasn't been great, we need to fix it somehow"; Business reasons, social reasons, supply/demand reasons, whatever, and the answer "Because we're a***holes and we hate you" doesn't even make the top 20. 
> 
> But I don't _like_ it. I don't like paying more money for anything, much. Monkey-brain wants to keep the shiny pebbles AND have all the bananas at the same time. The important thing to remember is the difference between monkey-brain and a constructive conversation.


The big question is why should I pay those prices? I have an alternative. Multiple of them honestly. I can pay less without any issues, and use those savings to buy something else from my local gamestore to support it. So what is my motive, as a consumer to support GW?  




> I worry that Custodes present an nigh-insurmountable problem that can only be solved via Mortal Wounds. Custodes are 'totally beatable', which is true...Okay, _how_? The how is important. Because then you have to start looking in toolboxes and you're going to find Factions with toolboxes that are half-empty.
> 
> I worry that in order to power creep against Custodes, GW will have to release a unit or Faction that spams Mortal Wounds. Certainly, Parasite's ability to do Mortal Wounds _in the opponent's turn_, as well as turn off Objective Secured, is almost a direct counter to Custodes' Troops units, which prove to be (un)surprisingly good, even in the Troops slot. I would very much like to know the Parasite's points cost, and what if anything in the Tyranids book synergises with it - and how hard. Because if it's good against Custodes...It's probably good against everything, else, too.
> 
> I worry that if they do it _once_, they'll continue to do it more. But, it depends what - if any - lesson(s) they learned from AoS.


AP 2/3 weapons. Multi damage is good, but not, actually, necessary. Honestly, weight of shots is more important. Really, with their ability to shrug mortal wounds, AP 2/3 basically _is_ mortal wounds against Custodes. Then the ability to inflict Fight Last, minus damage, and good vehicles work out well. Though Mortal Wounds does become viable if you aren't up against Emperor's Champs. But that's the best faction for Custodes into everyone but Custodes, so I just kinda assume most Custodes are running Emperor's Champs. 

Admittedly, Space Marines probably struggle the most with this. I think running triple Dreadnaughts (I think Venerables with Twin Lascannon is the best of your options, but maybe an Ironclad for counter charge? And the Heavy Plasma cannon is free...), and maybe it's worth taking a look at Grav-cannons again? Only S5 makes me think it's a bad pick, but you can put them in drop pods for a guaranteed turn of shooting. 

Regardless, you want things that can fight in melee, but still have decent to good shooting, hit well naturally since you can't depend on rerolls, and good AP/damage. So Venerable Dreadnaughts. But Space Marine troops are aggressively overcosted, and are actually pretty terrible these days. 2 Wounds means a lot less now that damage 2 is everywhere, and the AP 1 that Space Marines have to pay for (by taking Intercessors) is free in pretty much every other army barring Sisters. 

Which actually raises a question, what's better? 

5 Intercessors
or
5 Tactical Marines with a Heavy Bolter/Grav-cannon

They are the same points, but for something I'd want just sitting back and holding objectives I think the heavy weapon might actually be better. It certainly is better against Custodes. 

Still being forced to drop ~300 points into what I think you can honestly call the worst troop choice in 9th edition is a pretty harsh tax. 


On a side note, why don't I ever see Blood Angels taking Librarian Dreadnaughts?

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## LeSwordfish

I suspect that the Tyranids and Chaos Marines will have good access to Mortal Wounds just because of their assorted wierd gribbliness, but don't know if that'll be a long-term effect. Tau, for example, have very little Mortal Wound output, aside from rail weapons.

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## Forum Explorer

> I suspect that the Tyranids and Chaos Marines will have good access to Mortal Wounds just because of their assorted wierd gribbliness, but don't know if that'll be a long-term effect. Tau, for example, have very little Mortal Wound output, aside from rail weapons.


Funny enough, Tau is actually one of Custodes worst match ups, since while Tau might not have mortal wounds, they do have an absolute ton of AP-3 shots at high Strength and Damage 3 or greater.

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## Hootman

> See, if it became obsolete over an edition change once every 7 5 3 2 (?) years I'd be okay with that.
> The problem is that they become obsolete in less than six months. Less than _three_, in some cases.


The Ork guide I tried to write became obsolete _as I was writing it_, which was really disheartening. At some point in my revisions, I just ran of out gas, and couldn't work up the energy to continue.




> On a side note, why don't I ever see Blood Angels taking Librarian Dreadnaughts?


Probably because it's lame now, by my reading (of an online resource, since I don't have the book). They don't appear to have any shooting that's worth having, and their melee attacks don't let them use the cool halberd more than once. You get two powers from a discipline that seems...lackluster? Like, a flying dreadnought is still awesome, but the other powers seem largely unhelpful to me. At least, from a self-buff angle. No good attack spells to have as alternatives to just using Smite, and the best powers look to be giving a unit a 5++ (which is fine, but boring) and giving a unit 'extra melee hit on 6s', which you'll only get mileage out of on a unit with way more attacks than the Dread has itself.

Which is a total shame. Part of the reason I played Blood Angels back in 5th was the Librarian Dread, which was the coolest model I owned, give or take a kitbash. Or my Ironclad, actually.

...Why don't Orks have multiple fancy dreads? Or just...ones with unique and interesting weapons? This is a travesty.

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## Blackhawk748

> I worry that Custodes present an nigh-insurmountable problem that can only be solved via Mortal Wounds. Custodes are 'totally beatable', which is true...Okay, _how_? The how is important. Because then you have to start looking in toolboxes and you're going to find Factions with toolboxes that are half-empty.
> 
> I worry that in order to power creep against Custodes, GW will have to release a unit or Faction that spams Mortal Wounds. Certainly, Parasite's ability to do Mortal Wounds _in the opponent's turn_, as well as turn off Objective Secured, is almost a direct counter to Custodes' Troops units, which prove to be (un)surprisingly good, even in the Troops slot. I would very much like to know the Parasite's points cost, and what if anything in the Tyranids book synergises with it - and how hard. Because if it's good against Custodes...It's probably good against everything, else, too.
> 
> I worry that if they do it _once_, they'll continue to do it more. But, it depends what - if any - lesson(s) they learned from AoS.


The old school "Drown them in bullets strategy?" Then again I play Ad Mech for the most part nowadays so pretty much all solutions are "Drown them in Rad Rounds"

And I would be too considering where AoS went and how GW tends to balance things. Will they? I don't know, maybe they'll just do Ad Mech 2.0 and we'll have some stupidly efficient gun blobs again. 




> This is always a treacherous thing. Rock-Paper-Scissors balancing seems good in concept since the factions keep themselves in balance... but it feels really crappy being Scissors when Rock is popular in the meta and Paper just got so nerfed that they aren't even seeing the table. And even in metagames with perfect balance, getting matchup hard-countered just because your army does Scissors and your opponent plays Rock, and you randomly play together, still feels terrible.


RPS balancing works when every faction has a Rock, a Scissors and a Paper component to the army, even if they skew more heavily in one direction. That way you can at least adjust, in theory, in list building to properly compensate. Does it always work? No, and GW is very, very bad at it.




> ...Why don't Orks have multiple fancy dreads? Or just...ones with unique and interesting weapons? This is a travesty.


We're Orks, we don't get nice things. And when we do they take them away. Yes Im still salty about Flash Gitz losing their 4+ armor why do you ask?

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## Brookshw

> T
> 
> What?
> 1. Your partner wants to watch TV. Something terrible that is terrible.
> 2. You say 'okay' and sit on couch with laptop.
> 3. Pointlessly argue with strangers online.
> 4. Occasionally look up at the TV and/or your partner - _especially_ when they're addressing you.
> 5. Agree with everything your partner says, throw in a 'Did she really just do that!?' every now and then. Bonus points if you throw in a 'That's craaazyyy...'
> ???
> ...


Alternatively, sit next to them and paint your army, works well 9 out of 10 times.

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## Cheesegear

> The old school "Drown them in bullets strategy?" Then again I play Ad Mech for the most part nowadays so pretty much all solutions are "Drown them in Rad Rounds"


AdMech is actually a great example of Guides being totally useless.

GW released AdMech. It was _crazy good_. Like, actually _too good_. Nerfed in less than a month of release - I think they might've even been nerfed twice.




> Alternatively, sit next to them and paint your army, works well 9 out of 10 times.


...And that 10th time, nothing you do is going to matter.  :Small Wink:

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## Hootman

> We're Orks, we don't get nice things. And when we do they take them away. Yes Im still salty about Flash Gitz losing their 4+ armor why do you ask?


Wait. They lost their 4+ armor? I can't find anything current that says that.

If that's the case, I'll be quite irritated. Freeboota Flash Gitz was my favorite core for a list in this edition (even though they sensibly limited my Boyz from having BS2+ after a good turn). They are already really expensive and need vehicle support--I don't want to pay more for even less now.

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## Forum Explorer

> Probably because it's lame now, by my reading (of an online resource, since I don't have the book). They don't appear to have any shooting that's worth having, and their melee attacks don't let them use the cool halberd more than once. You get two powers from a discipline that seems...lackluster? Like, a flying dreadnought is still awesome, but the other powers seem largely unhelpful to me. At least, from a self-buff angle. No good attack spells to have as alternatives to just using Smite, and the best powers look to be giving a unit a 5++ (which is fine, but boring) and giving a unit 'extra melee hit on 6s', which you'll only get mileage out of on a unit with way more attacks than the Dread has itself.
> 
> Which is a total shame. Part of the reason I played Blood Angels back in 5th was the Librarian Dread, which was the coolest model I owned, give or take a kitbash. Or my Ironclad, actually.
> 
> ...Why don't Orks have multiple fancy dreads? Or just...ones with unique and interesting weapons? This is a travesty.


I mean, 4 attacks base (+1 for the fancy halberd), 5 attacks first round of combat, 6 attacks in the Assault Doctrine, and you can cast the Quicking on themselves for and extra D3 attacks. For a max of 9 attacks with +1 for the halberd. That seems pretty good to me. 




> Wait. They lost their 4+ armor? I can't find anything current that says that.
> 
> If that's the case, I'll be quite irritated. Freeboota Flash Gitz was my favorite core for a list in this edition (even though they sensibly limited my Boyz from having BS2+ after a good turn). They are already really expensive and need vehicle support--I don't want to pay more for even less now.


They should still have their 4+ save.

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## hamishspence

> Which is a total shame. Part of the reason I played Blood Angels back in 5th was the Librarian Dread, which was the coolest model I owned, give or take a kitbash. Or my Ironclad, actually.


One of the things I like about 9e Space Marine codex and supplements system is that it dropped a lot of the "restrict certain units" limitations. Now, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, can _take_ Ironclads, when they couldn't before.

Some units, like the Librarian Dreadnought, are still restricted (Librarian Dread is still Blood Angels & Their Successors only)

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## Cheesegear

> I mean, 4 attacks base (+1 for the fancy halberd), 5 attacks first round of combat, 6 attacks in the Assault Doctrine, and you can cast the Quicking on themselves for and extra D3 attacks. For a max of 9 attacks with +1 for the halberd. That seems pretty good to me.


As usual, the problem isn't necessarily the model itself. The problem is the internal balance of the Codex being all kinds of wonky, that even the _good_ things, don't get a look at, because other things are Just Better at the same job.

You're an Aeldari player. You know as well as I do that the Avatar, for the last several editions, has never actually been bad. There's nothing wrong with it.

*Statement 1.* It synergises with Guardian blobs, it has Ignore Wounds (5+), and you can re-roll Charges which also synergises with a few Aspect Warrior units, as well. And, yes, an Avatar can stomp it's way up the board because it only has 8 Wounds so it can't even be targeted. The Avatar of Khaine is quite good.

*Statement 2.* The Avatar is 'Not a Farseer', the Avatar can't ride in a Transport with Aspect Warriors. The Avatar doesn't have _Path of Command_. The Avatar is in fact, actual garbage.

Both are true. But Statement 2 is *more* true.

The Librarian Dread is in the same boat as the Avatar. There's nothing actually overtly wrong with it. It does what it's supposed to do. The problem is why would you take a Librarian Dread when you can take...Anything else.

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## Blackhawk748

> Wait. They lost their 4+ armor? I can't find anything current that says that.
> 
> If that's the case, I'll be quite irritated. Freeboota Flash Gitz was my favorite core for a list in this edition (even though they sensibly limited my Boyz from having BS2+ after a good turn). They are already really expensive and need vehicle support--I don't want to pay more for even less now.


I may be misremembering, I haven't looked in the book in a long while, I just remember them taking it away in 7th, the Edition we really needed that 4+

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## Wraith

> The big question is why should I pay those prices? I have an alternative. Multiple of them honestly. I can pay less without any issues, and use those savings to buy something else from my local gamestore to support it. So what is my motive, as a consumer to support GW?


And the answer to that question is another question: "Do you want to play 40k or AoS, or not?". Not "a game very much like 40k or AoS", but "just 40k or AoS"? 

I can probably guess what your response to that is going to be. I'm just as sure you already know mine. That's fine. GW isn't interested in us. They're only interested in people whose answer is "OH GOD PLEASE YES" and no one else.

Is that sustainable, long term? I'd have said no, but I also said the same thing in 1998 when I thought the new edition was going to scare everyone away, so.... *bewildered shrug*

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## Blackhawk748

> Is that sustainable, long term? I'd have said no, but I also said the same thing in 1998 when I thought the new edition was going to scare everyone away, so.... *bewildered shrug*


There's also, like, A LOT more games nowadays. There's also people who buy the Rules for 40k or AoS and just use different models. The only thing you can't do is participate in GW tournaments.

Mantic was smart about this and realized that people are happier if you don't get cranky about models and just make solid rules and sell those. And also decent models. At sane prices.

----------


## Dragonus45

> There's also, like, A LOT more games nowadays. There's also people who buy the Rules for 40k or AoS and just use different models. The only thing you can't do is participate in GW tournaments.
> 
> Mantic was smart about this and realized that people are happier if you don't get cranky about models and just make solid rules and sell those. And also decent models. At sane prices.


Para Bellum does the same. The models could use some work but it's hard to argue with the costs, and they give away a ton of stuff too to help get the game going. Like half my 100k army was free. And they are officially super lax about proxies. I have D&D models on bases for a few things.

----------


## Cheesegear

> The only thing you can't do [with 3rd party models] is participate in GW tournaments.


Which is the exact rule that causes piracy makes the 3D printers go brrr.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> Which is the exact rule that causes piracy makes the 3D printers go brrr.


Oh most definitely. But I doubt GW cares at the moment.

----------


## Cheesegear

> Oh most definitely. But I doubt GW cares at the moment.


Give the customer:
- What they want,
- When they want,
- At a price that they can afford.

If you can't do one of those things (for whatever reason), you're going to get cheap knock-offs in the market at best, and outright piracy at worst.

We saw this back during the inception of _Netflix_. People paid <$10 or whatever, and got whatever they wanted. Piracy went down - _globally_.

Now? In 202x, we see companies take their stuff off of Netflix, and create their own streaming service. Everyone wants a piece of that pie.
But the consumers can't bear that.
So instead, they start picking and choosing which streaming services they can afford that give them what they want.
Then, because of the fracturing of the market, everyone raises their prices in order to gouge the piece of the market they _do_ have.

Piracy goes back up, _because of_ the streaming wars.
'No, but...Streaming makes piracy go _down_...' Yeah...When you gave the customer everything they wanted at a price when they could afford it. When you don't give the customer what they want, and a price that they also can't afford...You've lost the game.

This is what happened.
I don't know anyone who was saying that 8th Ed. was broken. There were very minor problems, specifically regarding high-model-count armies. But that was the only problem in the game, and ITC did find a solution to that problem. Nobody wanted 8th Ed. to change.

GW removed the game that people wanted, and replaced it with 9th Ed., then did a price hike. Two of the three things you _absolutely should not do_ if you're worried about piracy. Then of course, shipping across the world took a severe nose dive for obvious reasons - the Suez Canal was even blocked for an entire week. Which means that people couldn't even get the product when they wanted it; You go the store, you pay them money, they give you product...Nope. Turns out they can't even give you the product. That's the third nail.

----------


## Requizen

> There's also, like, A LOT more games nowadays. There's also people who buy the Rules for 40k or AoS and just use different models. The only thing you can't do is participate in GW tournaments.


This is going to be an interesting thing to watch in the next few years. There's always been a few games nipping at GW's toes - Warmahordes, Kings of War, XWing - but I've not seen anything take over my local store the way Marvel Crisis Protocol is right now. GW has often had lows where people didn't like editions or metagames, but they never really seemed to happen at a time where a game choices were this booming. I do think we're in an era where if GW drops the ball too hard, there's a lot of new places for players to scatter. And many of those games will let people use their existing toys. I'm playing some Age of Fantasy by OnePageRules tomorrow, for instance, with Sigmar stuff. 

The Warhammer community (the real one, not the website) has historically been self-sustaining. People played Warhammer because other people played Warhammer, why would you play games that people weren't playing? Put the effort in to build a community around a new game? Icky, what a hassle. But a bunch of games have but out real banger starter boxes (MCP being the big one here, but ASoIaF and Star Wars Legion really pushed their starters), and other games have just embraced the mini-agnostic lifestyle, so that cycle of Warhammer propping itself up on an existing playerbase... might not be as strong as it once was. Especially after a 2 year pandemic forcing people to slow down, re-evaluate their purchases, and maybe branch out while they're momentarily broken out of their regular Warhammer routine.

Personally, I'm not looking to invest too heavily into any new systems yet, as I think there's a very strong likelyhood that Games Workshop and Warhammer in general does just keep trundling through, and MCP stutters and slows like most third party games have before it. But I'm definitely trying new things, as I said, and keeping my eye on the pulse.

That said, I do still play a lot of the GW specialist games, since they haven't managed to ruin Blood Bowl yet, Warcry is still fun, and the new Kill Team is actually a very solid Skirmish game (partially flubbed by GW pricing structure around rules and new releases). I just have no interest in either bigHammer game.

----------


## Artanis

> And many of those games will let people use their existing toys. I'm playing some Age of Fantasy by OnePageRules tomorrow, for instance, with Sigmar stuff.


I think this is a huge factor. Even if some game comes along that is infinitely better than GW's stuff, having to spend God knows how much time and money on a whole new pile of models is going to turn everybody off. But if you're allowed to use the stuff you already have, then there's little to no barrier to entry for existing 40K/AoS players. No need to even build a big, self-sustaining playerbase to find games, you just need one other person who already plays something else and is willing to try it out with you. Like using Vassal, without all the downsides inherent to using the terrible pile of jank that is Vassal.

----------


## Cheesegear

> This is going to be an interesting thing to watch in the next few years. There's always been a few games nipping at GW's toes - Warmahordes, Kings of War, XWing - but I've not seen anything take over my local store the way Marvel Crisis Protocol is right now.
> [...]
> But a bunch of games have but out real banger starter boxes (MCP being the big one here, but ASoIaF and Star Wars Legion...


One thing that's massively important to MCP and _Legions_ that other games don't have (e.g; Frostgrave), is just-as-strong, if not stronger IP recognition than Warhammer. It's a huge draw.

Hey new kid, want to play Warhammer?
What's that?
Okay, ten thousand years ago The Emperor finished the Unification Wars, and got panicked because the Eye of Terror opened up because the Aeldari had too much sex and drugs...Okay. Start again. The Emperor is a dude who was around a few thousand years BC and he found a Chaos monument that...Okay. Chaos is...

Hey new kid, want to play Marvel Crisis Protocol?
What's that?
Ever seen one of them Marvel movies?

There's currently a fracture in my area where half the people are playing Frostgrave, and half the people are playing MCP. MCP feels a lot more accessible for some reason.

----------


## Requizen

> I think this is a huge factor. Even if some game comes along that is infinitely better than GW's stuff, having to spend God knows how much time and money on a whole new pile of models is going to turn everybody off. But if you're allowed to use the stuff you already have, then there's little to no barrier to entry for existing 40K/AoS players. No need to even build a big, self-sustaining playerbase to find games, you just need one other person who already plays something else and is willing to try it out with you. Like using Vassal, without all the downsides inherent to using the terrible pile of jank that is Vassal.


Tabletop Simulator got a nice boost during COVID for that same reason, but I think TTS is freaking annoying to use and nowhere near a tabletop experience. 




> There's currently a fracture in my area where half the people are playing Frostgrave, and half the people are playing MCP. MCP feels a lot more accessible for some reason.


IP licensing is massive right now. Maybe Games Workshop will give theirs to a reasonable tabletop developer some day  :Small Cool: 

Frost/Stargrave seems fun, but they seem more like RPGs meant to be played in campaigns more than pickup games, which I prefer. Which is also one of my main downsides to Blood Bowl - everybody wants to play leagues, when I just want to do pickup games with different teams and try strange setups.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> One thing that's massively important to MCP and _Legions_ that other games don't have (e.g; Frostgrave), is just-as-strong, if not stronger IP recognition than Warhammer. It's a huge draw.
> 
> Hey new kid, want to play Warhammer?
> What's that?
> Okay, ten thousand years ago The Emperor finished the Unification Wars, and got panicked because the Eye of Terror opened up because the Aeldari had too much sex and drugs...Okay. Start again. The Emperor is a dude who was around a few thousand years BC and he found a Chaos monument that...Okay. Chaos is...
> 
> Hey new kid, want to play Marvel Crisis Protocol?
> What's that?
> Ever seen one of them Marvel movies?
> ...


40K is likely one of the best described settings with that entry blurb pretty much every rulebook has.

----------


## Avaris

> 40K is likely one of the best described settings with that entry blurb pretty much every rulebook has.


Yeah all that stuff about the Emperor and background that Cheesegear uses is interesting, but not essential to understanding the setting. Its stuff you get to later. Its like starting an explanation of Marvel with ok, so theres Iron Man, who was a billionaire and got kidnapped by a terrorist group claiming to be the Ten Rings. Hold up, the Ten Rings are a criminal organisation led by this guy with some powerful rings, but no one knows where they come from, as theyre not Eternals tech so the Eternals are

One thing GW settings have really nailed is the elevator pitch of the setting. That first paragraph of text you read. I havent really seen that with many other systems and settings, so the rise of stuff like MCP is interesting. Though without knowing anything much about the system, I assume it is not so easy to really feel like youre playing with my dudes as it is with GW characters: Iron Man is Iron Man, albeit with a choice of different suits he can be using. So similar niche, but GW etc offers stuff it doesnt.

----------


## Cheesegear

> 40K is likely one of the best described settings with that entry blurb pretty much every rulebook has.


The setting, sure. Now explain what each Faction is, their strengths and weaknesses, and what makes them fun to play and/or why the person you're talking to, would want to play them. When someone is trying to get _into the game_, what do you tell them? What _can_ you tell them, without their eyes glazing over?

MCP is great for new players who don't know what they want, because all their homework is already done, because most (?) people watch movies. Most (?) people know what an Iron Man is, what a Captain America is, just by cultural osmosis. My Dad has probably seen less than a third of the Marvel movies. I know for a _fact_, however, that my Dad watched _The Incredible Hulk_ ('78) with Bill Bixby, and read _Hulk_ comics while he was in the Air Force - he showed me his collection (it's worth nothing, I checked). The run from the '70s even introduced Wolverine. So my Dad knows who he is, too, even without the Jackman movies.

If I walked my Dad down the MCP aisle at my FLGS, I know he would recognise several characters - from comics he read 50-60 years ago - and he would already know what they're about, without having to be told, and I'm pretty sure he'd even know what they'd be good at in the game, just via name recognition and visualisation alone. My Dad knows what a MODOK is. ...In fact...Do you reckon I could get my Dad to play MCP?  :Small Confused: 
...Challenge accepted.

Warhammer, just isn't that culturally relevant. What's a Drukharii? What's an AdMech?

----------


## Avaris

> Warhammer, just isn't that culturally relevant. What's a Drukharii? What's an AdMech?


Evil Space Pirate Elves and Religious Robot Scientists respectively. Neither of those are quite accurate (edit: and obviously this is harder than with MCP due to the current film run), but they get a lot of the message across. Warhammer itself isnt especially culturally relevant (though some stuff like Space Marines are much more recognisable), but one of the strengths of the setting is that it plays on some very resonant tropes. I reckon you could probably describe most, if not all, of the factions in five words or less and give a fairly good idea of what they are like and how they are likely to play within that, just from resonance.

Edit: what is particularly important is that these come across in the models as well. If you showed someone a Drukhari model and an Ad Mech model theyd probably quickly have some idea of what the factions are about. Compare to, say, War Machine, where many of the Jacks are very similar looking to the untrained eye.

----------


## Gwynchan'rGwyll

There's still a wide variance from describing a faction as a mix of 3 different tropes, versus going "Iron Man is going to kick Venom's butt."

----------


## Avaris

> There's still a wide variance from describing a faction as a mix of 3 different tropes, versus going "Iron Man is going to kick Venom's butt."


Oh definitely. MCP is much more resonant than Warhammer in the present cultural moment. Im more comparing it to the other games that dont trade on an established IP.

----------


## LeSwordfish

I think you can give the gist of 40k in only a few sentences, but can you make someone _love_ it? Because they probably already _love_ Marvel/Star Wars before you've said a single word.




> How does one transform from "Marvel movie" to "tactical turn-based wargame"? So as someone who actually has no idea what Marvel Crisis Protocoll is, that description does not help me at all.


Sounds like you're thinking in mechanics terms rather than "iron man is going to kick Venom's butt".

----------


## Requizen

> How does one transform from "Marvel movie" to "tactical unit-based wargame"? So as someone who actually has no idea what Marvel Crisis Protocoll is, that description does not help me at all.


The person who knows what Wargaming is will understand "skirmish wargame", and the person who hasn't played one will understand the appeal of having their X-Men beat up my Sinister Six. Not that difficult imo.

----------


## Cheesegear

> No, I just cannot imagine a "Marvel" game that is similar enough to an actual wargame to spark interest in someone who wants to play a wargame.


...Well. No. A Wargame is a wargame.

However, an elephant in the room right now is that people simply don't have a lot of money. Young players especially don't have any money, and new players don't want to spend a whole lot of money up front so they actually _can_ walk away if they don't like the experience. The elephant in the room is that large-scale wargames aren't...Accessible? _Especially_ GW is pay-to-play (but not pay-to-win).

Skirmish games, are where it's at; On GW's front, _Kill Team_ 3rd Ed. (?) is an attempt at this. Unfortunately the rules for it are so bad that it just...Fails. MCP's prices are a little bit silly. But given that you don't have to buy a lot to play, it's kind of okay.

----------


## Cheesegear

> So it's not about the accessibility of Marvel fluff vs. GW fluff anymore? Because that was the initial argument.


First. Welcome to...Threads.

Second. If we're talking about accessibility, it's both. I can't make more than one point at a time? Oh, okay (again, welcome to threads).

1. Marvel is more accessible because pop-culture exists, and _has existed_ for a long, long time, insofar as my Dad still remembers Marvel pop-culture from 60 years ago. Meanwhile, he's still calling every single Pokemon, a 'Pikachu.' Marvel pop-culture has permeated the mainstream so hard that it's easier for people to get into MCP because they're already familiar with the subject matter being displayed. Part of it is nearly a century's worth of comics. Part of it is roughly half a century of TV shows and cartoons. Part of it is almost two decades' worth of movies in recent memory. It's all of it.

'What's an AdMech? I don't understand. What's a Forge World? What has Mars got to do with anything.'

The player wanting to buy a Wolverine miniature isn't even going to ask you any questions because they already know who Wolverine is, and, mechanically, if you ask the new kid what they think Wolverine's _role_ is in the game...I'm pretty sure they'll be able to tell you without hesitation; Melee fighter who is resistant to damage. Now, if you, as an individual can't identify Venom (who has been around for a long, long time...Including in two very successful - by pandemic standards, at least - recent movies), that might be on you. When Eminem is doing the theme song, the property is probably mainstream.

There are some people who claim - unironically - that Marvel (and DC) Comics are essentially 'modern mythology.' That's how important they've become.

Games Workshop's IP is both its strongest and weakest selling point.

2. Games Workshop products are also inaccessible for _another reason_; The cost, both up front and ongoing. This is a separate point, but not unrelated. It's tied to accessibility. Which is what the above, also is. People don't want to buy a ****load of miniatures for a game they might not even like. It's a lot easier if you ease the new player into it, and tell them that they _don't_ have to spend a lot of money.

The price of the hobby is a detriment to the IP.

I don't want to spend a lot of money on something I don't understand and/or just seems weird to me - that's GW.
I am, however, willing to spend _some_ money I understand quite well - that's MCP. 'Member Rocket Raccoon? I like when he said the funny thing and was cute.

See? It's all connected.

----------


## Requizen

> On GW's front, _Kill Team_ 3rd Ed. (?) is an attempt at this. Unfortunately the rules for it are so bad that it just...Fails. MCP's prices are a little bit silly. But given that you don't have to buy a lot to play, it's kind of okay.


Kill Team's rules aren't bad, they're probably the most solid they've been compared to the last two editions. The main issue is how those rules get out, in standard GW fashion. 

Rulebook is expensive, and doesn't have any factions in it. Compendium is expensive, and getting replaced as months go by. Not only replaced, but power crept, so while you can play Compendium vs Compendium with good balance, good luck playing most Compendium teams into Kommandos. New teams are new, so require new minis, defeating one of the best parts of Kill Team, which was just using the minis you have.

TBH they nailed Skirmish with Warcry outside of some balance issues and weak campaign rules. They took the good stuff and put it into Kill Team... then immediately put it behind a very toxic business model. Because, well, GW.

On another note, I played some One Page Rules yesterday for the first time in person, specifically Age of Fantasy Skirmish. It's basically Warcry, slightly different, but free. While it lacks some of the depth, it's still fast and fun. Their Sci Fi skirmish game would be great for those KT minis I have kicking around once they inevitably run it into the ground with power creep and 700 expansions.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

In case it matters to anyone, I inquired with GW about their new event support program and how it affects doubles and team tournaments.  The answer I got is that they only care about the number of people in a tournament, so 32 people qualify no matter how many are on a team, and each member of a winning team gets a publication code.

----------


## FireJustice

> Well we don't _hate_ it so much as we've moved into Stage 5; Acceptance, and a significant percentage of us have moved to 3D printers. The rest of the world is still stuck on Stage 1/2. No...See...Price hikes are good for the consumer because...Umm...During inflation...Well, you see...Errr...You don't understand business...Idiot.


Ok, I'm stealing this
Stage 6 of grief is *3D printing.*

----------


## Dragonus45

> Ok, I'm stealing this
> Stage 6 of grief is *3D printing.*


Oh damn that was the thread title right there

----------


## Cheesegear

> Stage 6 of Grief is 3D Printing.


You did it. That's the one. That's genius.

----------


## elros

The people I know who play WH 40k like the modeling aspect of the game even more than the gameplay. MCP has appeal, but not as much opportunity for customization.

----------


## zlefin

How interesting is the 'designing your army' subgame in warhammer these days?  I haven't ever really played, and only had a hand-me-down rule book from the late 80's or early 90's that I used to read.  I remember that one had a really fancy and complicated set of point-based rules for building your army.  I read the free rules for the current edition and it seems like there's a lot less customization and options for building your army.

I don't have a playgroup these days; and even in general I often find I spend more time reading about some games than playing them.  Like in DnD I've read the books and made characters far more than I've played.

I wouldn't ofc plan to buy anything; it's more about how interesting it'd be if I found the books in a library or something.

----------


## LeSwordfish

The free rules don't include the section on army construction, which is similar to how it's always been, though a little simpler since now the options available have reduced.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> The free rules don't include the section on army construction, which is similar to how it's always been, though a little simpler since now the options available have reduced.


Have they, though?  Not only are there a multitude of detachment types as opposed to the One Force Org Chart to Rule Them All, but the number of units has ballooned, especially in the Marines codex but also in that there are multiple new armies since then.

----------


## LeSwordfish

I guess? I'm thinking if the various little customisation doodads like auspexes and meltabombs, the greater level of flexibility of equipment on heroes, that kind of thing. Been writing heresy and necromunda lists recently which have really spoiled me for choice.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Oh in wargear yes, absolutely.  That happened as soon as they decided that if it wasn't in the kit it wasn't an available option, though.  New GW hates kitbashing.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> Oh in wargear yes, absolutely.  That happened as soon as they decided that if it wasn't in the kit it wasn't an available option, though.  New GW hates kitbashing.


And yet we have things like Grandmasters in Dreadknights.

Unless they got a kit when I wasn't looking.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> And yet we have things like Grandmasters in Dreadknights.
> 
> Unless they got a kit when I wasn't looking.


That and them making the Autarch datasheet obsolete like three days after releasing the new codex are the two weird exceptions.

----------


## Cheesegear

> How *interesting* is the 'designing your army' subgame in warhammer these days?


I hope I understand your question right; *Not very*.

9th Ed. disincentivises you for taking multiple Detachments.
9th Ed. incentivises you for taking a mono-Faction.
_Nachmund_ made mono-_Sub_-Faction mandatory.

Specialist Detachments were a fun ride in 8th Ed., but they went away. For some reason they didn't catch on on GW's end.

Secondary Objectives are not like Maelstrom; You pick the best Objectives for you, and design your army around those Objectives - and no, I don't have that backwards. You don't design your army for _you_, then pick the best Secondary for that army. I know what I'm trying to say. I'll make it clear.

*Wrong.* Choose an army that you like, and use Secondaries that you think would suit that army.
*Right.* Choose Secondaries you like, and build an army that you think would suit those Objectives.

When you know what you want your army to do, _before_ you build it, it's much easier (_less interesting?_) to build, because you already know what you want.

One of the upsetting things of 9th Ed., is that part of the win conditions of the game rely on what you do, not what your opponent does. Like, it's irrelevant whether your opponent is there or not there because you score some VPs just for existing. *shrug*

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Got a tournament coming up, and being the stubbornly independent TO that I am, I'm mixing it up a bit and rewriting one of my old missions to the Nachmund GT standard.  

*Spoiler: Take and Hold*
Show

*Game Knight Classic - Strike Force
TAKE AND HOLD
*
*Mission Briefing*
_We must secure a landing zone close to the front for our heavy landers. Seize the area and hold it until relieved._

*Primary Objectives*
This mission has two primary objectives.
*
Take and Hold
Progressive Objective*
_
Several strategic locations have been identified in your vicinity. You are ordered to assault these positions and hold them at any cost._

At the end of each players Command phase, the player whose turn it is scores 4 victory points for each of the following conditions they satisfy (for a maximum of 12 victory points):
They control one or more objective markers.They control two or more objective markers.They control more objective markers than their opponent controls.
This primary objective cannot be scored during the first battle round. In the fifth battle round, the player who has the second turn does not score any victory points at the end of their Command phase, but instead, at the end of their turn, they score 4 victory points for each of the above conditions they satisfy (for a maximum of 12 victory points).

*Secure LZ*

_The landing zone must be clear of the enemy._

At the end of each players  turn, the player whose turn it is scores 2 victory points if they satisfy one of the following conditions, or 3 victory points if they satisfy both of the following conditions.  
They control two of the objective markers in no mans landThey control at least one of the objective markers in no mans land and the objective marker in their opponents deployment zone.





Anything obviously wrong?  I just kind of threw together the second primary loosely along the lines of others in the book.

----------


## hamishspence

> That and them making the Autarch datasheet obsolete like three days after releasing the new codex are the two weird exceptions.


The Grandmaster is less "add _new_ parts" and more "Reposition _existing_ parts" (with the sword pointed down instead of up).

The Autarch updated datasheet was done because the _cover art_ Autarch was illegal as written, as were the finecast Autarch models. It's still not got nearly as many options as the 7e Autarch datasheet (no dual-wielding guns for example), but at least now, if you have one of the finecast autarchs, you can use it, and you can mix and match between the two plastic Autarchs.

----------


## Wraith

The Ash Waste Nomads are finally coming to Necromunda, 27 years after first appearing in the fluff.

I can't remember the last time that I was so excited by ONE photo of ONE mini. Hook that **** directly into my veins, I want more of it yesterday.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Ugh.  Compiling the tournament pack now.  The secondary objectives bloat in Nachmund has ballooned it from six pages to ten.   :Small Sigh:

----------


## Destro_Yersul

> The Ash Waste Nomads are finally coming to Necromunda, 27 years after first appearing in the fluff.
> 
> I can't remember the last time that I was so excited by ONE photo of ONE mini. Hook that **** directly into my veins, I want more of it yesterday.


Same boat. I looked at that and was like 'whelp, there goes my money.'

----------


## Renegade Paladin

The Horus Heresy is getting a new edition.  They say it's still going to be based on the 7th edition 40k rules, though, so I guess we'll see where they would have gone with it if they hadn't done a total reset in 8th.

----------


## Fergie0044

> The Ash Waste Nomads are finally coming to Necromunda, 27 years after first appearing in the fluff.
> 
> I can't remember the last time that I was so excited by ONE photo of ONE mini. Hook that **** directly into my veins, I want more of it yesterday.


How do you like them ... flea riders? I'm gonna say fleas. Giant mutant fleas, what a time to be alive!

----------


## Eldan

Someone has replayed Morrowind recently.

----------


## LeSwordfish

> The Horus Heresy is getting a new edition.  They say it's still going to be based on the 7th edition 40k rules, though, so I guess we'll see where they would have gone with it if they hadn't done a total reset in 8th.


Some rules did leak for it: the only thing I can specifically remember is that walkers now use a infantry-like profile, everything has a Movement value, and it looks as if the USRs are a little simpler (Shrouded (1) and (2) instead of "stealth" and "shrouded" for instance, Bulky (4) instead of Very, Extremely, etc etc). Looks like a sensible amount of tidying up, and will probably require new profiles for everything but, like, it's a game with like three "codexes", how long will that take them. There was a set of leaks that I find credible that the release model will be something like 40k 9th/AOS3 - big launch box like Indomitus, probably in June/July like that was, then smaller starter sets a little later out, and the rumors say rules for Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and Sons Of Horus are coming pretty soon.

They also clarified that generic things would be getting new plastic models (there's a new kind of Sicaran in the trailer) which is neat, and that legion-specific things wouldn't be, at least for now, which is a shame but not unexpected and nice to be clarified. I hope I can finish my breachers and Arcus by then: just polished off Rann and Sigismund, Battle Bros.

----------


## Wraith

> The Horus Heresy is getting a new edition.  They say it's still going to be based on the 7th edition 40k rules, though, so I guess we'll see where they would have gone with it if they hadn't done a total reset in 8th.


Wasn't it already 7th edition rules? Or was it more of a mix and I just assumed the rest of it fell into line?




> How do you like them ... flea riders? I'm gonna say fleas. Giant mutant fleas, what a time to be alive!


Apparently they're called Dustback Helamites. '-Mite' as in 'dust mite', presumably.

The very last thing I was expecting - Ash Nomads were traditionally more Mad Max on motorcycles and with dune buggies, these look more like something out of Jim Henson's The Dark Crystal - but honestly, I think they're pretty cool. 

I like the divergence - now that the Hive Gangs have Am-Bot and other automated minions, it feels suitable that the Ash Nomads have gone full on 'Tuskan Raiders' and use living mounts to set them apart. Neat.

----------


## LeSwordfish

> Wasn't it already 7th edition rules? Or was it more of a mix and I just assumed the rest of it fell into line?


It was (very lightly updated) 7th ed all along - leaked rules look like a further upgrade but still built on the 7th ed skeleton - still using a WS/to-wound table, for example.

----------


## druid91

> Yeah all that stuff about the Emperor and background that Cheesegear uses is interesting, but not essential to understanding the setting. Its stuff you get to later. Its like starting an explanation of Marvel with ok, so theres Iron Man, who was a billionaire and got kidnapped by a terrorist group claiming to be the Ten Rings. Hold up, the Ten Rings are a criminal organisation led by this guy with some powerful rings, but no one knows where they come from, as theyre not Eternals tech so the Eternals are
> 
> One thing GW settings have really nailed is the elevator pitch of the setting. That first paragraph of text you read. I havent really seen that with many other systems and settings, so the rise of stuff like MCP is interesting. Though without knowing anything much about the system, I assume it is not so easy to really feel like youre playing with my dudes as it is with GW characters: Iron Man is Iron Man, albeit with a choice of different suits he can be using. So similar niche, but GW etc offers stuff it doesnt.


Plus nowadays you can always pull up Warhammer TV on your phone if trying to convince a friend, or have it playing on a loop in your store.

----------


## Grim Portent

> Apparently they're called Dustback Helamites. '-Mite' as in 'dust mite', presumably.
> 
> The very last thing I was expecting - Ash Nomads were traditionally more Mad Max on motorcycles and with dune buggies, these look more like something out of Jim Henson's The Dark Crystal - but honestly, I think they're pretty cool. 
> 
> I like the divergence - now that the Hive Gangs have Am-Bot and other automated minions, it feels suitable that the Ash Nomads have gone full on 'Tuskan Raiders' and use living mounts to set them apart. Neat.


Those things are ticking waaay too many of my boxes. Strong Star Wars/Morrowind/Kenshi vibes coming off of them and I love it.

----------


## LeSwordfish

I like the look of the buggies. I've been playing a lot of Necromunda recently - my Orlocks, the Dead Saints, have been rattling along at the bottom of our campaign for some time, but I now have the fairly OP combo of the Tunnels territory and a ganger with meltagun and chainsword, who pops out of the tunnels and reliably puts an enemy OOO every turn. With that and some decent luck, I'm suddenly in 4/10th place and have no idea how to deal with such lofty heights. I might buy a lot of carapace armour. I like the idea of adding the buggies to my biker gang - I hope they add bikes too.

----------


## Wraith

> I like the look of the buggies. I've been playing a lot of Necromunda recently - my Orlocks, the Dead Saints, have been rattling along at the bottom of our campaign for some time, but I now have the fairly OP combo of the Tunnels territory and a ganger with meltagun and chainsword, who pops out of the tunnels and reliably puts an enemy OOO every turn. With that and some decent luck, I'm suddenly in 4/10th place and have no idea how to deal with such lofty heights. I might buy a lot of carapace armour. I like the idea of adding the buggies to my biker gang - I hope they add bikes too.


From what I have read of Ash Wastes, it's more or less an alternate game-mode - similar to the difference between Blood Bowl and Dungeon Bowl in that it uses the same rules as the main game, but it self-contained rather than being an expansion.

If that's the case, I expect that each of the current gangs will get a vehicle to use in the Wastes - Orlocks get the ATVs and I imagine that Van Saar will keep their hoverboards, so I'd be amazed is SOMEONE didn't get a 'bike. I'm thinking slender dirt-bikes for Escher gangs, and big greasy hogs with side-cars for Goliath, maybe? And then an APC for Enforcers? Something like that, probably.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

A friend of mine was playing on stream at Adepticon today and I'm watching the VOD.  He had a great, back and forth game, but I'm looking at the other game they were swapping back and forth to, which was Custodes vs. Necrons.  The Necrons took it, 40-35.  This was in the second round, final roughly seven hours in.

----------


## 9mm

https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhamme...empest-of-war/

I know I haven't been paying any attention to 40k, but how is it I'm just now hearing about maelstrom 2.0?

----------


## Durazno

That sounds pretty neat.  I wonder though - with the secondary objectives that require you to keep tallies, like Grind Them Down, when do you start counting?  Does the player have to announce, "I'm going for Grind Them Down this turn, so we should be counting kills?"

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhamme...empest-of-war/
> 
> I know I haven't been paying any attention to 40k, but how is it I'm just now hearing about maelstrom 2.0?


They beta tested it in White Dwarf 461 last year.  The beta version was quite a bit different and as far as I know they hadn't said anything about it since.

----------


## Hootman

While I will definitely (probably, maybe) play with the new Maelstrom rules when they're available, the fact that they are not on standard-sized cards is deeply irritating to me. I am *100%* certain that there is nothing on those cards that couldn't possibly be reduced in word count to make them fit on a standard card. The old deck fit on standard cards, and shuffling and storing them in deck boxes was a pleasant experience.

Sure, I _can_ (and assuredly will, if the game is actually fun and worth playing multiple times) make my own cards, but I object to having to do so just in order to be able to keep track of my stuff and use it. It's bothersome.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> Sure, I _can_ (and assuredly will, if the game is actually fun and worth playing multiple times) make my own cards, but I object to having to do so just in order to be able to keep track of my stuff and use it. It's bothersome.


The GW experience right there

----------


## Artanis

> While I will definitely (probably, maybe) play with the new Maelstrom rules when they're available, the fact that they are not on standard-sized cards is deeply irritating to me. I am *100%* certain that there is nothing on those cards that couldn't possibly be reduced in word count to make them fit on a standard card. The old deck fit on standard cards, and shuffling and storing them in deck boxes was a pleasant experience.
> 
> Sure, I _can_ (and assuredly will, if the game is actually fun and worth playing multiple times) make my own cards, but I object to having to do so just in order to be able to keep track of my stuff and use it. It's bothersome.


No no, see, this way, you can't lose them by accidentally mixing them in with your MtG cards and the like! It's GW looking out for you!

----------


## Turalisj

I've got a running bet with someone who thinks Tau are going to still be top of the meta in another 3 months. Gonna be the easiest hundred bucks I ever made.

----------


## Wraith

> I've got a running bet with someone who thinks Tau are going to still be top of the meta in another 3 months. Gonna be the easiest hundred bucks I ever made.


I'm curious; what are they basing that on? The fact that Aeldari and Tyranids are the next two confirmed codices, or...?   :Small Tongue: 

Also, how are you defining "top of the meta" ? Winning X number of tournaments? General IRL consensus? Bell of Lost Souls publishing an article about how bad they are?

----------


## Forum Explorer

> I've got a running bet with someone who thinks Tau are going to still be top of the meta in another 3 months. Gonna be the easiest hundred bucks I ever made.


It's not that bad of a bet. GW can be pretty slow to fix things and if they only give Tau a light touch on the first go around, then they might stay on the top of the meta until the next balance sheet.

----------


## Lord Ruby34

> It's not that bad of a bet. GW can be pretty slow to fix things and if they only give Tau a light touch on the first go around, then they might stay on the top of the meta until the next balance sheet.


Based on last week's results, it looks like Harlequins may have already replaced them at the top.

----------


## LeSwordfish

Yeah Tau have already lost their crown. 77 goddamn percent!

----------


## Blackhawk748

> Yeah Tau have already lost their crown. 77 goddamn percent!


That is an absurd win rate for a faction, even a new one. 

Hell, Eldar having an over 60% one is bad enough.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> That is an absurd win rate for a faction, even a new one. 
> 
> Hell, Eldar having an over 60% one is bad enough.


You know things are bad when my thoughts on Eldar were 'at least they are only barely above 60%'

----------


## Blackhawk748

> You know things are bad when my thoughts on Eldar were 'at least they are only barely above 60%'


Ya, when that's the takeaway, we have an issue. 

One faction significantly over the 55% target is one thing, but we have 3. Custodes are within the acceptable parameter, barely, but having 3 shoot that far over is just absurd.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Ya, when that's the takeaway, we have an issue. 
> 
> One faction significantly over the 55% target is one thing, but we have 3. Custodes are within the acceptable parameter, barely, but having 3 shoot that far over is just absurd.


The reverse is even worse though. Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle were in the 20-30% win rate which is just awful. Imperial Guard at least have the excuse (and the hope) that they are an 8th edition codex. But SoB are already out. They need some serious help to be made competitive again.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> The reverse is even worse though. Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle were in the 20-30% win rate which is just awful. Imperial Guard at least have the excuse (and the hope) that they are an 8th edition codex. But SoB are already out. They need some serious help to be made competitive again.


What in the goddamn **** happened to cause THAT? They were great like 6 months ago!! 

And yes, that is an unacceptable win rate

----------


## Renegade Paladin

When not even Goonhammer can put a positive spin on it...

"Battling underdogs Tau Empire make it into the semifinals of a supermajor."  The fact that they can write this sentence with an apparently straight face considering the state of the meta pre-Eldar just boggles the mind.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> What in the goddamn **** happened to cause THAT? They were great like 6 months ago!! 
> 
> And yes, that is an unacceptable win rate


No idea. It might not even stick; this isn't the first time that Sisters have just had a really bad week, and bounced back from it.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> When not even Goonhammer can put a positive spin on it...
> 
> "Battling underdogs Tau Empire make it into the semifinals of a supermajor."  The fact that they can write this sentence with an apparently straight face considering the state of the meta pre-Eldar just boggles the mind.


I think that is the most striking thing, even they can't put enough lipstick on this pig to make it not look like a dumpster fire. 

I just keep thinking of what the AoE2 community would be doing if something looked this messed up.

----------


## Cheesegear

> Hell, Eldar having an over 60% one is bad enough.


Yeah. I know what you mean; It should be at least 80% win rate for Aeldari.

Someone at GW must hate Aeldari for making their Codex so terrible. A 60-75% win rate just isn't good enough. Disgusting.

----------


## Brookshw

Got a good chuckle at the new video,99% sure it's just an April fools joke, but its a good one (and I refuse to give up all hope!)

----------


## Dragonus45

> What in the goddamn **** happened to cause THAT? They were great like 6 months ago!! 
> 
> And yes, that is an unacceptable win rate


It hurts my soul too, I only got back in because I love Sisters. Although I at the rate that I paint, slooooooooooooooooow, I barely get any actual playing the game in so I guess rules concerns are more of a secondary issue for me anyways.

----------


## Requizen

> Got a good chuckle at the new video,99% sure it's just an April fools joke, but its a good one (and I refuse to give up all hope!)


Squats have been part of various rumor cycles for this year, including one that's been pretty accurate so far (called Black Templar expansion, Eldar, and a few other things). Of course, most Rumors are just throwing things at a wall that seem likely, so their reliability is questionable at best, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it's a double troll and they do drop a Squat army box later this year.

----------


## LeSwordfish

My guess is a Squat kill team, like the Corsairs.

----------


## Requizen

> My guess is a Squat kill team, like the Corsairs.


I'd absolutely be down for that, since that's all I'd realistically buy anyways.

----------


## Squark

After the 6th edition core rulebook er... "un-squatted" the squats via one sentence in the back of the book (which listed sanctioned abhuman strains), GW has been testing the waters with Squats. Necromunda in particular has been pushing them in the fluff and even added 2 minis. A Kill Team or Necromunda Gang seems quite possible.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> After the 6th edition core rulebook er... "un-squatted" the squats via one sentence in the back of the book (which listed sanctioned abhuman strains), GW has been testing the waters with Squats. Necromunda in particular has been pushing them in the fluff and even added 2 minis. A Kill Team or Necromunda Gang seems quite possible.


Fantasy Flight did some stuff with them too, but yes, I doubt Squats are gonna be a full army, all of their current fluff has them in smaller groups. 

Which is fine,cuz they work better with that sort of thing.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

If that's _just_ a joke, it's a joke with a higher animation budget than the entire run of Hammer & Bolter.   :Small Amused:   But Space Hulk has also been rumored, and they could just take that and add a Blood Angel Terminator at the end instead of the squat and it would fit perfectly.  There's even a severed Genestealer talon floating in the void in the first interior shot.

----------


## 9mm

lets see where this goes.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...l-to-prove-it/

----------


## Eldan

Rock and Stone.

----------


## Brookshw

Charge of the lazer-pick brigade. Looking forward to learning more.

----------


## hamishspence

I'm wondering what that gun is - plasma, melta, a bit of both like the Hrud Fusil in _Warriors of Ultramar_?

----------


## zlefin

How large is the development team?  I'm curious what causes such mistakes to be so prevalent in development that there are such big balance problems.  It seems like something where it should be possible to at least do somewhat better;  so is hte problem simply a lack of staff?  or is the staff bad at estimating balance?  or are corporate decisions preventing good solutions from being used?  or is it just inherently too hard to do better?

----------


## Cheesegear

> I'm curious what causes such mistakes to be so prevalent in development that there are such big balance problems.


We heard it from Matt Ward himself a long, long time ago; Rules sell models.
Power creep is intentional; In pretty much every long-life game you can think of.

We also know that their playtesting is kind of a joke.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> We heard it from Matt Ward himself a long, long time ago; Rules sell models.
> Power creep is intentional; In pretty much every long-life game you can think of.
> 
> We also know that their playtesting is kind of a joke.


They also have HORRIFIC burnout of staff, which is why companies like Mantic come into existence. May also explain why Mantic has better balance.

Though they also outsource tournament balancing to the Rules Committee which is a large group of TOs who compile data for them and then make suggestions to Mantic who then look these over and put them in the yearly Clash of Kings tournament packet.

Its a good system as it gives the players a reasonably direct line to the company, and so they know what things we get annoyed at. Or why certain things that annoy us weren't being changed. Like Stampedes.

----------


## Avaris

> How large is the development team?  I'm curious what causes such mistakes to be so prevalent in development that there are such big balance problems.  It seems like something where it should be possible to at least do somewhat better;  so is hte problem simply a lack of staff?  or is the staff bad at estimating balance?  or are corporate decisions preventing good solutions from being used?  or is it just inherently too hard to do better?


I was pondering this myself yesterday. According to the GW accounts, in 2021 there were 308 staff in design and development. That includes everything involved in putting a product out, from rules writing, model design, Eavy Metal, background writing etc, across every system. As a very rough guess, Id assume a third of the company is focussed on 40k (300/3 = 100), and maybe a fifth of that would be actual rules design (100/5 = 20). This tallies with what we hear through WD etc, which tends to suggest a dozen or so people working on the rules. So, without additional information, I would guess the 40k development team is between 10 and 30 people, and the overall development team, for all systems, between 30 and 90.

The team is almost certainly bigger than it used to be, but I think the real challenge in terms of keeping things balanced is the rate of rules output. Goonhammer is doing a series atm about 2002, which highlighted that in 2002 only 3 codexes were released for 40k. According to Wikipedia this was not an unusual year: there were just two in 2001, and three in 2003. Now, this was a few years after a new edition release, so maybe not a fair comparison, but even 1999 (the year after 3rd edition) only had five (six if you count Codex Assassins, which was free in WD), and theses were much slimmer and more basic than todays codexes, having only a few pages of lore for example. By contrast, there were 9 codexes released in 2021, and this was likely less than planned due to the pandemic. Not to mention all the additional products such as Campaign Supplements. People always complain about how long it takes to get an update for a specific army, but these updates are significantly faster than in the past.

I suspect playtesting also isnt helped by the fact that GW wants to prevent rules leaks, so probably have a limited circle of playtesters they trust. And even then, that trust is clearly misplaced, given how often rules leak.

Edit: size of the team isnt the only way of ensuring quality of course. I suspect there is a max team size before it gets unwieldy in a too many cooks kind of way. Also, whenever saying how could this happen, remember that we dont see all the things they caught and fixed along the way. If youre working on a product to a certain timetable, there will always be things that get through the gaps, and these may not be so obvious when youre in the heart of design as they are when published.

Edit 2: there has been a massive increase in staff over the last few years. In 2014, the longest ago accounts are easily available for, there were 203 people in design and development, 2/3 of what there is now, and this actually reduced to 167 in 2015.

----------


## Eldan

> They also have HORRIFIC burnout of staff, which is why companies like Mantic come into existence. May also explain why Mantic has better balance.
> 
> Though they also outsource tournament balancing to the Rules Committee which is a large group of TOs who compile data for them and then make suggestions to Mantic who then look these over and put them in the yearly Clash of Kings tournament packet.
> 
> Its a good system as it gives the players a reasonably direct line to the company, and so they know what things we get annoyed at. Or why certain things that annoy us weren't being changed. Like Stampedes.


Yeah, but Mantic is also _really boring_. Most of their units don't _do_ anything.

----------


## Artanis

> We also know that their playtesting is kind of a joke.


Yeah, I remember a while back when GW was *bragging* about how their playtesters each got what was it, two games a week? :Small Yuk:

----------


## LeSwordfish

Yeah I remember that too, when it was an example some guy was using, not an accurately intended number or a brag.

Speaking of playtesting, a pretty large amount of Horus Heresy 2.0 rules have leaked. *Spoiler*
Show

I'm excited I think - few changes to the core system but a lot of sensible tweaking of the outer shell, including a Reaction system that seems to sit sensibly between 7th ed and 8th's Command Points. A lot of prices for units have gone down too - Terminators and breachers both at 150pts base. Terminators are two wounds each now! But 2+ saves are going to be less useful, since a bunch more things have got Rending (powerswords and autocannons especially.) Plasma guns have taken an odd downgrade - they now start at AP4 and become AP2 on a 4+ to wound, presumably to make them less useful as one-size-fits-all killers. Filling their niche as Gets Hot Rapid Fire AP2 Anti Infantry are Disintegrator weapons, which are only strength 5 - I assume to reduce plasma's ability to both be anti-infantry and anti-tank.

I'm a little peeved to see bayonets get their own rules. +1ppm for +1 strength seems like a fairly nothingy rule, I would rather have been able to take them for cosmetic purposes. Similarly, Chainswords now have Shred, which makes them five points per model in some cases! Though, a chain bayonet is 2ppm for +1 str and shred, which means a 8/9ths chance of wounding toughness 4!

----------


## Blackhawk748

> Yeah, but Mantic is also _really boring_. Most of their units don't _do_ anything.


That is a feature not abug. Its a game about blocks of dudes fighting other blocks of dudes, not "Crash Doomwheels into each other and laugh".

There's a halfway point in there that can obviously be met, but Mantic went for the "Historical with some extras" approach and I really enjoy it, because what I do on the board is what matters the most in a game like that and not how stupidly awesome this one unit is.

We had Dragon Prince tag in the beginning of 2e, it was fun for a bit and we're good not having it again.

----------


## Eldan

I play plenty of historic systems that I enjoy. Including some quite simulationist ones, that include things like weather, terrain and courriers to relay orders. Mantic isn't boring because it's historical inspired. It's boring because I find the rules far too stripped down.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

GW is releasing a new balance dataslate next week to deal with Harlies.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> I play plenty of historic systems that I enjoy. Including some quite simulationist ones, that include things like weather, terrain and courriers to relay orders. Mantic isn't boring because it's historical inspired. It's boring because I find the rules far too stripped down.


Thats fair. I like the simplicity of it. There's enough neat stuff that each faction feels different and enough playstyles that Im happy.

Its also a hell of a lot more balanced than 40k which makes it worth the cost IMO.

----------


## Eldan

I never found balance all that important. But then, I play with other store regulars I've known for decades almost exclusively, and for most systems, we have our own house rules and homebrew anyway.

----------


## Fergie0044

> GW is releasing a new balance dataslate next week to deal with Harlies.


Gee, GW sure is getting faster at fixing the balance problems in 40k*! 
*Problems that they themselves are fully the cause of and likely do on purpose....

----------


## LeSwordfish

You would have thought if they were deliberately making a unit super OP they'd do it with one of the new units.

----------


## Cheesegear

> You would have thought if they were deliberately making a unit super OP they'd do it with one of the new units.


What new units? GW makes new units for old factions, in 202x?

Nah. GW just makes whatever-you-don't-have, good (a lot of the time, that is new units...But most Factions these days don't have new units). Aeldari players haven't touched Harlequin Vehicles in..._A while_. The majority of the power coming out of the Harlequins Faction for most (all?) of 8th Ed. was Starweavers, and those have vanished.

----------


## LeSwordfish

> What new units? GW makes new units for old factions, in 202x?


Remember when the complaint was that GW only made new things and didn't remake old models? (Though they did also make the new shroud runners - how come they aren't top of the pops? Or the corsairs?)

Anyway, same applies to New Models. The avatar's never been very good, if they're deliberately making things broken to drive sales why isn't the new Avatar the hottest **** imaginable? Did their marketing imply that every competitive Eldar player has twenty Shining Spears in their cupboard?

----------


## Cheesegear

> The avatar's never been very good...


I'm always surprised how quickly people have forgotten 8th Ed., the meta that was shaped in that edition, and pertinently, how the Avatar was required for Aeldari to compete in that era.

Most non-ITC* Aeldari players should have an Avatar, if they played during 8th Ed.

*I can forgive that the ITC meta and the _actual_ meta of the game, were different, and how ITC players actually _forgot_ how the actual game was played (LansXero was a great in-forum example). However, I'm pretty sure that that distinction and/or allowance doesn't apply to you.

----------


## LeSwordfish

Okay, well, what about guardians, rangers, shining spears, corsairs, shroud runners or dark reapers?

----------


## lord_khaine

> Anyway, same applies to New Models. The avatar's never been very good, if they're deliberately making things broken to drive sales why isn't the new Avatar the hottest **** imaginable? Did their marketing imply that every competitive Eldar player has twenty Shining Spears in their cupboard?


Most Eldar players should just have an Avatar in general. Due to it being basically the biggest centerpiece model in your army.
You didnt get it because of the stats. You got it because the Avatar is the heart of the craftworld.

That aside. I had heard it at least was useable right now.

----------


## LeSwordfish

> You didnt get it because of the stats. You got it because the Avatar is the heart of the craftworld.


don't be silly, nobody buys a model unless evil GW has tricked them into thinking it's the only way to win games. and then they whisk it away like lucy with the football, after a whole three weeks of selling voidweavers by the bucketload

----------


## Eldan

> Most Eldar players should just have an Avatar in general. Due to it being basically the biggest centerpiece model in your army.
> You didnt get it because of the stats. You got it because the Avatar is the heart of the craftworld.
> 
> That aside. I had heard it at least was useable right now.


I never got one. Never liked the model. Well, the Forgeworld one was nice, but shipping and import taxes on Forgeworld stuff is insane. Early on, I used a wraithlord as a centerpiece, the really old one that was basically just a head on legs. (Back when a model that size could still be a centerpiece.) Then the newer wraithlord, then a flier.

----------


## Saambell

> Most Eldar players should just have an Avatar in general. Due to it being basically the biggest centerpiece model in your army.
> You didnt get it because of the stats. You got it because the Avatar is the heart of the craftworld.
> 
> That aside. I had heard it at least was useable right now.


I cheated when it comes to the Avatar model. I skipped the proper Eldar one, and stole the statue off the Alter of Blood from the Witch Elves in Fantasy. I have zero clue if its even the right size, but its very much the right shape, even if its stance is odd being a t-pose rather then dynamic action. And hey, if its bigger, no one will blame me for using the wrong model. Though, my eldar collection is tiny, and very much needs expanding on if I'm ever to play with them beyond a 500 point game. On that front, i guess the trick now is where do I go with my collection? I have: 
*Spoiler: Small Eldar collecton*
Show

Far seer on foot with spear
Farseer on jetbike with spear
2 units of 5 Dire Avengers, Exarchs with double guns
2 Wave Serpents with shiruken cannons, and swappable turret guns between scatter lasers and bright lances
a Vyper with bright lance
7 wind runners with twin catapults, 3 wind runners with cannons, and 2 windrunners with scatter lasers
wraithlord with sword and shiruken cannons
wraithlord with just sword
Avatar of Khaine


I guess the obvious pick is grabbing a pile of guardians as they will give me the needed 3 troops, and can babysit the foot far seer. Maybe 2 blocks of guardians, one for the avatar and one for the far seer, but obviously put them close together to stack buffs. But this is of course assuming I will have a chance to play soonish, and if I don't feel like boosting up my Necrons or something else. After reading The Infinite and the Divine, I'm kind of in the mood for Necrons.

EDIT: Also, the Avatar of Khaine very much isn't the biggest model an Eldar player can put on the table. Checkout the Wraithknight, which is near titan size, or at least Imperial Knight sized. And for some, I must point out it is not the same thing as a Wraithlord.

----------


## Eldan

Oh yeah. The statue makes an awesome avatar. Got a friend who won a painting contest with that one, too.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> Okay, well, what about guardians, rangers, shining spears, corsairs, shroud runners or dark reapers?


Guardians were fine in 7th, Rangers were good in 8th with stacking penalties to hit and Dark Reapers were stupidly good in 7th.

Can't comment on the rest.

----------


## Cheesegear

> Okay, well, what about *guardians, rangers*, shining spears, corsairs, shroud runners or *dark reapers*?


Between the dismissing the Avatar, and those three emphasised...At this point I'm concerned; Did you even play 8th Ed.?

'Member the horde meta?
'Member how _Snipers_ can take out lynchpin horde characters? And for a long time a required part of the army - just like the Avatar?
'Member how Dark Reapers could see through walls? Admittedly, Dark Reapers had to get the hard nerf. Maybe you don't have the 8th Ed. Craftworlds Codex and aren't reading Dark Reapers without the points change?

...No? Don't remember any of that?

Okay.

----------


## LeSwordfish

> Oh yeah. The statue makes an awesome avatar. Got a friend who won a painting contest with that one, too.


On the contrast, I know someone trying to set up the new one as the Avatar in a Daughters of Khaine army, which might be challenging since officially it should be on like a 40mm base

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Between the dismissing the Avatar, and those three emphasised...At this point I'm concerned; Did you even play 8th Ed.?
> 
> 'Member the horde meta?
> 'Member how _Snipers_ can take out lynchpin horde characters? And for a long time a required part of the army - just like the Avatar?
> 'Member how Dark Reapers could see through walls? Admittedly, Dark Reapers had to get the hard nerf. Maybe you don't have the 8th Ed. Craftworlds Codex and aren't reading Dark Reapers without the points change?
> 
> ...No? Don't remember any of that?
> 
> Okay.


I think he's asking are they amazing right now, since they got new models. You know, good rules = sales. 

And he has a point. Craftworld troops aren't great, Corsairs can't actually be your troop choice, Dark Reapers got nerfed hard, Shroud Runners lack Core, and Shining Spears are good but are pretty in line with how they are before the codex. The strongest stuff did not get new models. Well maybe you could argue Banshees.

----------


## Hootman

I generally find that only Completely New models are OP on launch day. Updates of older models are allowed to often just be Fine For Casuals, because their purpose is to bait in legacy players who either have a bunch of old pewter or always wanted That Army, but were turned off by the age of the models they liked. Not that they complain about new blood, obviously. 

Completely New things (like the Squig Boss, or the Wurr Tower mega-chariot thing) are more commonly over-tuned, because if word gets out that they are Lame-Sauce before the initial printing sells out, GW will be left holding the bag. And that's terrible.

----------


## Cheesegear

> And he has a point. Craftworld troops aren't great, Corsairs can't actually be your troop choice, Dark Reapers got nerfed hard, [...] The strongest stuff did not get new models. Well maybe you could argue Banshees.


Well, the point of discussion is that when a new Codex comes out; Whatever you currently have, is garbage, and whatever you don't have, is great.

There is point of contention when it comes to new models for existing units; It's a crapshoot whether they'll be good or not, because, if it's an existing unit that you already have, and it's good...You don't really need to buy new models, do you? Most metas are fine with people using older models, unless the miniature has changed _dramatically_; No, you can't use old/metal Be'lakor as the new, giant one.

Dire Avengers and Guardians can't really be made good...Because almost everyone who has ever played Eldar, ever, has - or should have - a lot of both. So GW drops a new box of Guardians and then makes them _amazing_, and then everyone sort of shrugs their shoulders; 'Don't I already have 100-odd Guardians from 8th Ed.? Thanks GW for buffing what I already own.'

Yeah, no. GW doesn't really work that way.

New models aren't really anything; New _units_ are where it's at. Of which there have been surprisingly little in 9th Ed.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Well, the point of discussion is that when a new Codex comes out; Whatever you currently have, is garbage, and whatever you don't have, is great.
> 
> There is point of contention when it comes to new models for existing units; It's a crapshoot whether they'll be good or not, because, if it's an existing unit that you already have, and it's good...You don't really need to buy new models, do you? Most metas are fine with people using older models, unless the miniature has changed _dramatically_; No, you can't use old/metal Be'lakor as the new, giant one.
> 
> Dire Avengers and Guardians can't really be made good...Because almost everyone who has ever played Eldar, ever, has - or should have - a lot of both. So GW drops a new box of Guardians and then makes them _amazing_, and then everyone sort of shrugs their shoulders; 'Don't I already have 100-odd Guardians from 8th Ed.? Thanks GW for buffing what I already own.'
> 
> Yeah, no. GW doesn't really work that way.
> 
> New models aren't really anything; New _units_ are where it's at. Of which there have been surprisingly little in 9th Ed.


Shroud Runners then. They aren't exactly bad, but since they lack Core, they can't really be called all that strong either. If they had the Ranger keyword they'd have a few more uses with the ranger secondary, but they don't, so they don't. I know it's early yet, but no one has really been talking about Shroud Runners, or has been using them in tournaments.

----------


## LCP

I like the idea that GW are simultaneously gutting the rules of new releases because they don't care about any models people are already likely to have enough of, but also making new sculpts + plastic injection moulds and filling up warehouse space with these new models that they have pre-emptively consigned to the bin.

It's like the maximalist Hanlon's Razor - never assign malice or incompetence when you can assume it's both at the same time.

----------


## Eldan

> Between the dismissing the Avatar, and those three emphasised...At this point I'm concerned; Did you even play 8th Ed.?
> 
> 'Member the horde meta?
> 'Member how _Snipers_ can take out lynchpin horde characters? And for a long time a required part of the army - just like the Avatar?
> 'Member how Dark Reapers could see through walls? Admittedly, Dark Reapers had to get the hard nerf. Maybe you don't have the 8th Ed. Craftworlds Codex and aren't reading Dark Reapers without the points change?
> 
> ...No? Don't remember any of that?
> 
> Okay.


Hah. I do. I've been playing an Alaitoc Rangers army since about third edition. Only rangers as core troops, supported by mostly tanks and war walkers, small handful of aspect warriors. I lost so many games. 

Then suddenly, they got competent in 8th edition. It was confusing.

----------


## LeSwordfish

> It's like the maximalist Hanlon's Razor - never assign malice or incompetence when you can assume it's both at the same time.


Assuming malice is a given: you assume the level of competence that allows the malice to fit the facts. If the new units were good, they'd be scheming geniuses: if the old units were good they'd be incompetent boobs. It's a perfect system.

----------


## Wraith

> I like the idea that GW are simultaneously gutting the rules of new releases because they don't care about any models people are already likely to have enough of, but also making new sculpts + plastic injection moulds and filling up warehouse space with these new models that they have pre-emptively consigned to the bin.


It makes a certain amount of sense. The new units are OP and their aura of FOMO draws people to start a new army, but the new sculpts are mostly for units which are Core (so you HAVE to buy them at some point) or are in other FOC slots that you'd be mad to not to fill (Dark Reapers in Heavy, for example).

New units draw people to start the army, and then they have to buy in to the other stuff to play with regardless of whether its good or not. If you already own Guardians, GW doesn't care - they already have your money, and its the new generation of whales that they want to ensnare.

But that's getting into cartoonishly evil levels of forward planning, and I don't think that GW is either that evil or that competent. They decide to have a new release, so they make new models for it - it's Pavlovian at this point. Ring the 'new release' bell, commission new sculpts.

----------


## Cheesegear

> Assuming malice is a given: you assume the level of competence that allows the malice to fit the facts. [...] It's a perfect system.


It's a perfect straw man, yes.

If the new units are b0rked and overtuned, as we have seen them to be, we get the hype train, we get the buzz, and then we have Eliminators sold out regularly for three months. We have Terminators sold out for...Ever? We have it on good authority at this point, that Matt Ward was right; Rules do in fact, sell models. Goonhammer says reviews - including their own - of units and Codecies influence what people buy. I know personally, from this very forum, that *I* have influenced what people have bought.

*Therefore*

If you know that to be the case, if you know that rules sell models, and your goal is to sell models, isn't it? Then it is very much in your interest to...Make good rules for units that people _don't already own_. We have seen this cycle again and again and again...Basically since 6th Ed.

Whatever is good now, gets nerfed.
Whatever is bad now, gets buffed.

This has been largely true for...Well, like I said, since at least 6th Ed. Hell, _League of Legends_ does it. Almost any long-life game you can think of, does it. The buff/nerf cycle drives sales. You have to replace the stuff that sucks now, with the stuff that's good, if you want to keep playing. At the very end of that road lies annual updates; 'You know that version of the game you like? It doesn't work now. Please buy again with all of our fixes.'

'There is no malice involved. It's just business. That's capitalism, baby!' - a GW apologist, probably.




> If the new units were good, they'd be scheming geniuses: if the old units were good they'd be incompetent boobs.


You have it completely backwards. But I can see that you're using different words to what I said to fit your narrative. So that's fine. Happens all the time.

If the old units that were bad, that you don't have (because they're bad), are _made_ good, they're scheming geniuses.
If new units are bad-on-release, they're incompetent boobs (Don't nerf them until after two months or so...At least)

The goal is to sell models. Even the ones you have sitting in a warehouse for 8 years.

Old units are good all the time; As above, Terminators (and Centurions) kicked nine kinds of arse in 8th Ed. Terminators had not been seen since 5th Ed., and the regular ones _without_ Storm Shields hadn't been seen since...Ever?

What I *said*, was...




> Nah. GW just makes whatever-you-don't-have, good


That can - and does - include many, many, many units that can trace their lineage all the way back to 2nd Ed.

I'm pretty sure you can trace any Faction's lineage, and what's good in any edition for a respective Faction is unlikely to be consecutive; Eldar/Craftworlds/Aeldari, is both a topical and great example.

EDIT:
I think it was Forum Explorer (apologies if it wasn't) who said that they'd been playing and collecting this game for so long that the buff/nerf cycle means nothing because by this point he has everything in the book...Which is kind of the plan, I guess... Though I'd be legitimately surprised if [whoever said that] has a stack of Vypers from from whatever edition they were good in. I was nearing that point with Space Marines at the start of 8th Ed. But then Primaris Marines have invalidated almost my entire collection by now - which of course, was the point.

Me: Can't see why I'd ever replace Sternguard. They're so useful.
GW: What if we nerfed them?
Me: They still perform a role that almost no other unit can.
GW: Nerf them again.
Me: I mean...They still do the job. Can't see why I'd buy new models.
GW: Heavy Intercessors?
Me: ...There it is.
GW: They're Troops, too. lol.
Me: They sure are.
GW: We made Scouts Elites, so now you have no Troops.
Me: I get it. Buy Heavy Intercessors.

----------


## LCP

> You have it completely backwards. But I can see that you're using different words to what I said to fit your narrative. So that's fine. Happens all the time.


or LeSwordfish just knows how to use 'were' in the second conditional.

Seems kind of relevant to the 'assuming malice' problem in some way...

----------


## Cheesegear

> Seems kind of relevant to the 'assuming malice' problem in some way...


Not really; I mostly assume stupidity in almost all cases, as per the referenced Hanlon's Razor.

GW is stupid for overtuning their new units,
GW is stupid for turning customers away when they nerf the things the customers already own,
GW is stupid for raising prices on old kits they've already made money on,
etc.

But then again, I think going full capitalism on a luxury product during times of inflation with a rapidly developing consumer-level, affordable technology taking the textiles world by storm, hot on your heels, is very, very silly. No malice needs to be involved. Just a lot of desperate people making a lot of bad decisions that make consumers mad.

----------


## LeSwordfish

> Not really; I mostly assume stupidity in almost all cases, as per the referenced Hanlon's Razor.


Hey, I'm not the one who doesn't know what "were" means  :Small Tongue: 

EDIT: and more seriously, you literally read the sentence and said "you're using different words to what I said to fit your narrative" instead of "you're wrong".

----------


## Forum Explorer

> EDIT:
> I think it was Forum Explorer (apologies if it wasn't) who said that they'd been playing and collecting this game for so long that the buff/nerf cycle means nothing because by this point he has everything in the book...Which is kind of the plan, I guess... Though I'd be legitimately surprised if [whoever said that] has a stack of Vypers from from whatever edition they were good in. I was nearing that point with Space Marines at the start of 8th Ed. But then Primaris Marines have invalidated almost my entire collection by now - which of course, was the point.
> 
> Me: Can't see why I'd ever replace Sternguard. They're so useful.
> GW: What if we nerfed them?
> Me: They still perform a role that almost no other unit can.
> GW: Nerf them again.
> Me: I mean...They still do the job. Can't see why I'd buy new models.
> GW: Heavy Intercessors?
> ...


It was me!  :Small Smile:  And yes, I do have Vypers. Three of them. A unit that has been good for a while that I just don't have (or want) is Night Spinners. I just don't like playing Craftworlds as a stand back and shoot army. 

But Primaris Marines were something else. I kinda hate Primaris Marines for being a blatant, 'replace your army' thing. I don't play Space Marines, so it didn't actually effect me at all, but it still upset me.

----------


## 9mm

> But Primaris Marines were something else. I kinda hate Primaris Marines for being a blatant, 'replace your army' thing. I don't play Space Marines, so it didn't actually effect me at all, but it still upset me.


the thing about Primaris is they weren't supposed to be additions, but the line refresh; but because the Space Marine line was already a bloated mess that wasn't feasible. So more bloat to the massively over bloated faction. 

Of course the whole counterpoint to the  "always deliberately overpower the new stuff" is every once in awhile you get warscolls like the crossboos.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

I know I've been playing Guard long enough to have nearly everything in the book.  If they make _any_ of it good, I'm in business.   :Small Tongue:

----------


## lord_khaine

> I never got one. Never liked the model. Well, the Forgeworld one was nice, but shipping and import taxes on Forgeworld stuff is insane. Early on, I used a wraithlord as a centerpiece, the really old one that was basically just a head on legs. (Back when a model that size could still be a centerpiece.) Then the newer wraithlord, then a flier.


Those are hilarious. I got two. One on a original square base xD
And fair. Well i guess taste differ. Though i think its hard to deny that for a long time the Avatar was one of the most complex models in the Eldar army.
It seemed clear it was intended as a centerpiece unit.

----------


## Clistenes

I have a question for the loremasters:

I don't play tabletop WH40K, but I read the novels and I have tried Dark Heresy a tiny bit...

I have read Horus Heresy Book 5 -Tempest, and I found the Provenances of War interesting. 

What I would like to know is; If you take a D-99/Gland Warrior and slap Elite Warrior, Gene-crafted and Cyber-augmented on top of it... how does it compare to units like Sisters of Battle, Skitarii or Tempestus Scions?

----------


## LeSwordfish

Tempestus scions are pretty tough cookies but are fundamentally just dudes. They're Seal Team Six - you could pretty trivially make a guy tougher and fightier than one of them with gene-enhancements and cybernetics. Sisters of battle are more or less the same, except they have the really good armour and guns. In lore terms, I think you'd have to try a bit harder to make someone tough enough to outfight a person with bolter and chainsword in power armour. I'm less up on the skitarii lore.

----------


## Fergie0044

> I know I've been playing Guard long enough to have nearly everything in the book.  If they make _any_ of it good, I'm in business.


I'm in the same position for Death Guard. Unfortunately GW's plan seems to be to nerf the entire army into the ground to force me to collect/buy another faction. (30% win rate this weekend according to Goonhammer, woohoo!)

----------


## The Patterner

> I know I've been playing Guard long enough to have nearly everything in the book.  If they make _any_ of it good, I'm in business.


Currently working on a Death korps army using nothing from forge world but instead the kill team models and... other options...

Yes I'm a masochist for starting a third guard army, especially considering the current rules...

Spank me harder daddy GW.

EDIT: If they decide to make sentinels really good my old Tallarn army will become an absolute beast...

----------


## Clistenes

> Tempestus scions are pretty tough cookies but are fundamentally just dudes. They're Seal Team Six - you could pretty trivially make a guy tougher and fightier than one of them with gene-enhancements and cybernetics. Sisters of battle are more or less the same, except they have the really good armour and guns. In lore terms, I think you'd have to try a bit harder to make someone tough enough to outfight a person with bolter and chainsword in power armour. I'm less up on the skitarii lore.


Thank you, but I was thinking of tabletop stats: How would they measure as units in a game?

----------


## Grim Portent

> I have a question for the loremasters:
> 
> I don't play tabletop WH40K, but I read the novels and I have tried Dark Heresy a tiny bit...
> 
> I have read Horus Heresy Book 5 -Tempest, and I found the Provenances of War interesting. 
> 
> What I would like to know is; If you take a D-99/Gland Warrior and slap Elite Warrior, Gene-crafted and Cyber-augmented on top of it... how does it compare to units like Sisters of Battle, Skitarii or Tempestus Scions?


Generally speaking making a warrior that is technically superior to a battle sister, scion or skitarii is quite possible. The Imperial Militia and Cults HH faction can rival space marines in terms of individual ability in specific areas, though they always remain mere humans in other places. They also lack other faction benefits of course, an IMaC soldier can be armed and armoured like a sister of battle but they'll never have faith powers, nor skitarii doctrines or guard orders.

I can't remember the exact details of the IMaC and which upgrades are mutually exclusive at the moment, but S4/T4/4+ save is doable, and physically superior to most other 'human' forces, I think T4/3+ save is doable as well, but I'm not so sure of that one, which is on par with old marines for durability. They can also of course be upgraded to have more attacks than marines, and at the same strength and basically be a bunch of chem-fueled berserker soldiers.

I can't remember exactly what Elite Warrior does, think it's +1 leadership, or is it +1 BS? But the stats would wind up like S4 or 5*, T3, 5-4+ save and 6++. Not bad, but also not amazing.

Gene-crafted as I recall is +1S, and Gland Warriors would probably also have +1S or perhaps +1A.

In theory you could make a soldier who is better (in some circumstances) than even a space marine in the RPGs, it would just be exorbitantly expensive and difficult. It's doable in _Dark Heresy_, though you have to indulge in some very dark heresy to pull it off via xeno-grafting, and easily doable in _Black Crusade_ but that uses warp rituals to do it. You'd miss out on a bunch of unique benefits like breathing underwater and being resistant to blood loss, and doing the same procedures to a marine would get better results, but you *can* make a supersoldier strong enough to beat a marine in an arm wrestling match, or even throw one around like a ragdoll from a baseline human.

----------


## Clistenes

> Generally speaking making a warrior that is technically superior to a battle sister, scion or skitarii is quite possible. The Imperial Militia and Cults HH faction can rival space marines in terms of individual ability in specific areas, though they always remain mere humans in other places. They also lack other faction benefits of course, an IMaC soldier can be armed and armoured like a sister of battle but they'll never have faith powers, nor skitarii doctrines or guard orders.
> 
> I can't remember the exact details of the IMaC and which upgrades are mutually exclusive at the moment, but S4/T4/4+ save is doable, and physically superior to most other 'human' forces, I think T4/3+ save is doable as well, but I'm not so sure of that one, which is on par with old marines for durability. They can also of course be upgraded to have more attacks than marines, and at the same strength and basically be a bunch of chem-fueled berserker soldiers.
> 
> I can't remember exactly what Elite Warrior does, think it's +1 leadership, or is it +1 BS? But the stats would wind up like S4 or 5*, T3, 5-4+ save and 6++. Not bad, but also not amazing.
> 
> Gene-crafted as I recall is +1S, and Gland Warriors would probably also have +1S or perhaps +1A.
> 
> In theory you could make a soldier who is better (in some circumstances) than even a space marine in the RPGs, it would just be exorbitantly expensive and difficult. It's doable in _Dark Heresy_, though you have to indulge in some very dark heresy to pull it off via xeno-grafting, and easily doable in _Black Crusade_ but that uses warp rituals to do it. You'd miss out on a bunch of unique benefits like breathing underwater and being resistant to blood loss, and doing the same procedures to a marine would get better results, but you *can* make a supersoldier strong enough to beat a marine in an arm wrestling match, or even throw one around like a ragdoll from a baseline human.


Thank you very much!

----------


## lord_khaine

> but you can make a supersoldier strong enough to beat a marine in an arm wrestling match, or even throw one around like a ragdoll from a baseline human.


Well yeah. Maries are just argumented humans themselves. 
The big thing about them is mostly that its possible to mass produce them.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Here we are a week later and the promised balance update still hasn't materialized.  Guess I have to run this weekend's tournament without it.   :Small Sigh:

----------


## 9mm

> Here we are a week later and the promised balance update still hasn't materialized.  Guess I have to run this weekend's tournament without it.


It'll probably drop on a Friday like last time. Enjoy your meta of angry clown bees.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> It'll probably drop on a Friday like last time. Enjoy your meta of angry clown bees.


None so far, but not all the lists are in yet.  Because I delayed the errata cutoff hoping they'd release it (and am off on Friday) I pushed back the list due date to Friday at noon, so we'll see.

----------


## lord_khaine

It is impressive how badly GW screwed up on this xD
Like.. its seems as if they literally didnt playtest this?

----------


## Fergie0044

Just dropped; https://www.warhammer-community.com/...avourite-army/

I was not expecting the game wide buff to all power armour units! Indirect fire and bodyguard getting the nerfs they deserve was also welcome. I don't know enough about the clowns or Tau to comment on their nerfs, but it seems like this is setting up nids domination for the foreseeable future. So again it's not about balancing the game, but making sure the wheel of "haves and have nots" continues to turn.

----------


## LeSwordfish

The tyranid rules aren't available to buy yet, which might make them a touch tricky to gather public feedback on.

----------


## Fergie0044

> The tyranid rules aren't available to buy yet, which might make them a touch tricky to gather public feedback on.


Very true, I shouldn't place so much blind faith in the early goonhammer review.

----------


## 9mm

> Just dropped; https://www.warhammer-community.com/...avourite-army/
> 
> I was not expecting the game wide buff to all power armour units! Indirect fire and bodyguard getting the nerfs they deserve was also welcome. I don't know enough about the clowns or Tau to comment on their nerfs, but it seems like this is setting up nids domination for the foreseeable future. So again it's not about balancing the game, but making sure the wheel of "haves and have nots" continues to turn.


I feel sorry for Ork players though, but overall this is a laugh riot.

----------


## Cheesegear

> So again it's not about balancing the game, but making sure the wheel of "haves and have nots" continues to turn.


No. You can't...Hey. Wait a second... _That's my line!_  :Small Annoyed:

----------


## Forum Explorer

> It is impressive how badly GW screwed up on this xD
> Like.. its seems as if they literally didnt playtest this?


Really? I think this is an overall positive change. Space Marines needed the buff, badly. Indirect fire needed the nerf, badly. As did Bodyguard. 

I do feel they went too far with Custodes and Imperial Guard, as I don't think Custodes were that bad, or that Imperial Guard needed to autowound on 6s for all of their weapons. 

And honestly, the nerfs to Tau and Harliquins were pretty restrained. 

The factions who really lost out were the ones who didn't get touched at all, namely Necrons.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> Really? I think this is an overall positive change. Space Marines needed the buff, badly. Indirect fire needed the nerf, badly. As did Bodyguard. 
> 
> I do feel they went too far with Custodes and Imperial Guard, as I don't think Custodes were that bad, or that Imperial Guard needed to autowound on 6s for all of their weapons. 
> 
> And honestly, the nerfs to Tau and Harliquins were pretty restrained. 
> 
> The factions who really lost out were the ones who didn't get touched at all, namely Necrons.


I think they were talking about pre nerf Harlies, because sweet god those were gross. 70% win rate is just unforgivable.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> Really? I think this is an overall positive change. Space Marines needed the buff, badly. Indirect fire needed the nerf, badly. As did Bodyguard. 
> 
> I do feel they went too far with Custodes and Imperial Guard, as I don't think Custodes were that bad, or that Imperial Guard needed to autowound on 6s for all of their weapons. 
> 
> And honestly, the nerfs to Tau and Harliquins were pretty restrained. 
> 
> The factions who really lost out were the ones who didn't get touched at all, namely Necrons.


That post dates to before the dataslate was released, so he couldn't have been talking about it.   :Small Wink:

----------


## Forum Explorer

> That post dates to before the dataslate was released, so he couldn't have been talking about it.


Oh, yep. You are correct. I guess he was talking about pre-nerf Harlequins then.

----------


## lord_khaine

> That post dates to before the dataslate was released, so he couldn't have been talking about it.


Unless im a future psychic!  :Small Big Grin: 




> I think they were talking about pre nerf Harlies, because sweet god those were gross. 70% win rate is just unforgivable.


I saw a 75% win rate listed somewhere. And that included mirror clown matches!

----------


## Blackhawk748

> I saw a 75% win rate listed somewhere. And that included mirror clown matches!


Someone listed it here and I went a bit insane. Probably because of all the AoE 2 I've been watching where something like that would be nuked by the community within moments. Hell, Civs with 57% overall winrates get sideeyed.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Welp, the 9 Voidweaver list adjusted down to 1500 points got submitted this morning.  Ladies and gentlemen, we have our winner.   :Small Sigh:

----------


## lord_khaine

Is it still a vinner?
As i understand the Void Weaver isnt nearly as competative at 130 points.
Thats suddenly more than 2/3 of the army now.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> Is it still a vinner?
> As i understand the Void Weaver isnt nearly as competative at 130 points.
> Thats suddenly more than 2/3 of the army now.


The balance dataslate didn't make the errata cutoff.  90 point Voidweavers get one last hurrah, and someone's taking it.

----------


## lord_khaine

Welp.. no i see. 
Still.. if i had just bought 9 void weavers? you could be dam sure i would use the chance to use them.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Renegade Paladin

In 2000 points they'll still have the chance to use them.  They'll just have to cut out some things.  What made Harlequins so _very_ busted was that everything was so cheap that they could take 9 Voidweavers and the requirements for a battalion and still have like 300 points to play with.   :Small Tongue:

----------


## Blackhawk748

> In 2000 points they'll still have the chance to use them.  They'll just have to cut out some things.  What made Harlequins so _very_ busted was that everything was so cheap that they could take 9 Voidweavers and the requirements for a battalion and still have like 300 points to play with.


And now they just don't have that 300. Which may be enough.

Maybe.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Well as I said, I'm running a 1500 point tournament and dude still took nine, so they can squeeze them in even down 500 points.  I'll report on tournament results tomorrow evening.

----------


## lord_khaine

> I'll report on tournament results tomorrow evening.


Sounds like it will be a.. circus  :Small Cool:

----------


## Artanis

> Sounds like it will be a.. circus


Possibly even a Clown Fiesta.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Harlequins dumpstered everybody, with Crusher Stampede and Custodes in second and third, so no surprises.  A beautifully painted Ultramarines army took both best painted and the wooden spoon.   :Small Tongue:   It'll be interesting to see how that shakes up next month with the dataslate and new Tyranids codex.

----------


## lord_khaine

So.. Harlequins got a solid nerf. And i think Custodes a light nerf?
While Tyranids get a massive buff in the new codex as far as i understood. 

So Tyranids the new Harlequins?

----------


## Forum Explorer

> So.. Harlequins got a solid nerf. And i think Custodes a light nerf?
> While Tyranids get a massive buff in the new codex as far as i understood. 
> 
> So Tyranids the new Harlequins?


Custodes got slammed hard. Losing Objective Secured on so much stuff, and their go to stratagems got a lot worse too. 

Tyranids might be the new Harlequins, if Crusher Stampede is still legal. It would be so broken that some tournaments aren't even waiting for GW and are preemptively banning it.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> Custodes got slammed hard. Losing Objective Secured on so much stuff, and their go to stratagems got a lot worse too. 
> 
> Tyranids might be the new Harlequins, if Crusher Stampede is still legal. It would be so broken that some tournaments aren't even waiting for GW and are preemptively banning it.


Wow. Don't think I've seen something so broken that TOs are just out right banning it themselves.

Way to go GW.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Tyranids might be the new Harlequins, if Crusher Stampede is still legal. It would be so broken that some tournaments aren't even waiting for GW and are preemptively banning it.


Would it be worse than Harlequins 2 weeks ago?

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## Renegade Paladin

> Wow. Don't think I've seen something so broken that TOs are just out right banning it themselves.
> 
> Way to go GW.


I am informed that GW has told the big organizers to do it in their group for the Approved TOs, since they're doing that now.  I am similarly informed that in the same venue they say removing the Knight buffs was a mistake and to keep using them.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Would it be worse than Harlequins 2 weeks ago?


Massively. As is, people are predicting Tyranids to be an S-tier faction. Giving all of their strongest stuff a 5++ and -1 damage would probably make it so that nothing has a chance against them.

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## Wraith

Warhammer Community has shared upcoming improvements to Chaos Space Marines as part of the run-up to Nachmund: Rift War.

Not just 2 Wounds, but also 3 Attacks as standard. They also get new stats in chainaxes and Daemon weapons, as the Balefire Acolyte rule from Kill Team is being imported to the main game.

Also, the first special character from Necromunda: Ash Wastes has been announced - a bad-ass bounty hunter lady who rides her own personal ATV with a rocket launcher on her shoulder. Ash Wastes is working hard to be the silliest, craziest, most amazing update ever.  :Small Tongue: 




> Massively. As is, people are predicting Tyranids to be an S-tier faction. Giving all of their strongest stuff a 5++ and -1 damage would probably make it so that nothing has a chance against them.


I have a friend who grew up close with people who still work at GW. So far he's been at least as reliable as any other source of GW rumours that you care to mention. His take on this is that the next few codices are all going to be broken as hell and they're doing it deliberately.

Firstly to kick-start new interest in the hobby as people come out of lockdown and distancing requirements and back into gaming and tournaments, proper - they're making stuff that people will WANT to buy, not just 'would kind of like if given the chance'. 
Secondly it's very likely to be that GW are tying up 9e - every faction gets a codex thrown out ASAP, hence why we get Aeldari, Tyranids and Tau coming out one after the other (how often have we have 2 xenos releases back-to-back, let alone 3?) and each is going to be increasingly silly as 'future proofing'. Get them done, make them all good and in as little need of FAQing or revisiting as possible, then focus on 10th edition for the big re-release that 9e should have been.

Seems reasonable, to me. Haven't seen it hinted anywhere else, but it adds up and would be a smart move in GW's part.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

The Balance Dataslate was updated today to re-include the Knight buffs and clarify Militarum Tempestus' interaction with Hammer of the Emperor (there isn't one; they neither break it nor get it).  Also they published a "Content Validity Update" which specifies which campaign books have been superseded by codices and should no longer be used in matched play.  What's interesting there is some of the entries have sunset dates.  Most are until January, 2023 or until superseded by a codex, but Creations of Bile and Agents of the Imperium are marked good until June 2023 with no codex provision.  10th edition release confirmed?   :Small Confused:

----------


## lord_khaine

I think the biggest surprise is the swift reaction.
Lizard people having replaced the GW board, accidentially caring to much about things confirmed?  :Small Confused:

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## Blackhawk748

> I think the biggest surprise is the swift reaction.
> Lizard people having replaced the GW board, accidentially caring to much about things confirmed?


I think its more of a "This is so broken its not attracting players, its pushing them away" situation. Like, people were VERY unhappy with Harlies, if Nids were gonna be worse it was gonna be a bloodbath for GW online.

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## Cheesegear

> accidentally caring to much about things confirmed?


I don't think it's an accident.

*Spoiler: -29% feels bad, man*
Show




When your stock drops 25% in a quarter, you take a look around.

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## Avaris

The idea that GW stock is remotely affected by the opinions of the community, rather than the wider economic issues of the UKs energy crisis, cost of living, and the war in Ukraine, is laughable.

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## Cheesegear

> The idea that GW stock is remotely affected by the opinions of the community


It's called voting with your wallet, and it absolutely has an effect. You can tell because the 2021 holidays were...Not kind to a retail company that boasted of its massive success during the last two years when everything _else_ was turning to ****. Why did everything turn to **** at the end of 2021 (i.e; Not in the last month). But that's not even close to what I'm talking about, so I'll stop.




> rather than the wider economic issues of the UKs energy crisis, cost of living, and the war in Ukraine, is laughable.


What does that have to do with anything?

Your stock has fallen (and it started _pre_-holiday season, not after, and you're a retail company...). That's a big problem.

What should you do to bring it back up? What do?

If the answer is; 'Sell your IP' 'Care about the customers you _do_ still have.', then you're on the same page as me.

I don't care _why_ their stock has dropped. That was never my point. What I care about is the consequences, optics and solutions, to said drop and how that manifests.

----------


## LeSwordfish

Do you think people making purchase decisions based on rules are more common than people making purchase decisions based on "i've spent all my money on petrol"?

My electricity bill tripled this month. I'm unable to vote with my wallet because it's empty.

EDIT: hang on, this is stock, not profits. Are the _shareholders_ voting with their wallets?

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## Blackhawk748

> Do you think people making purchase decisions based on rules are more common than people making purchase decisions based on "i've spent all my money on petrol"?
> 
> My electricity bill tripled this month. I'm unable to vote with my wallet because it's empty.


But GW doesn't know that, they just know you didn't buy anything. So they're gonna look around, see that online people are complaining about X or Y trend in the game, and try and change something, because that's something they can change.




> EDIT: hang on, this is stock, not profits. Are the _shareholders_ voting with their wallets?


This is entirely possible. Again, if you're a shareholder and you peek online to see whats up in the community, and you see people very upset with how the Release Nerf cycle goes, you may think to go to a less volatile company.

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## LeSwordfish

> But GW doesn't know that, they just know you didn't buy anything.


Their electricity bill also tripled.




> Again, if you're a shareholder and you peek online to see whats up in the community,


_Are_ they doing that? I was under the impression most shareholders were big companies or large holders, not individuals going on warseer to read angry posts.

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## Cheesegear

> Do you think people making purchase decisions based on rules are more common than people making purchase decisions based on "i've spent all my money on petrol"?


How does GW convince people to ignore petrol, and buy toy soldiers...Y'know...Like the good old days? ...JokingNotJoking.

I legitimately spent my rent money on Grey Knights back in 5th Ed. I ate _mi goreng_ for every meal, for two weeks until my next pay. Cost of living? Pfft. There is only toy soldiers.

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## LeSwordfish

> I legitimately spent my rent money on Grey Knights back in 5th Ed.


Well, maybe that's a you thing.

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## Cheesegear

> Well, maybe that's a you thing.


Judging by how GW has exploited FOMO is the last several years, I'm pretty sure it's the kind of customers GW wants.

Fortunately for me, I was okay in a month because 5th Ed. was decades ago.

_Un_fortunately for GW, exploiting FOMO doesn't work when your impulse-buying customer doesn't believe they'll be okay by next paycheque. And maybe landlords aren't as lenient as they used to be.

So, back to the original spark of the conversation.

Is GW accidentally caring about their game; No. They're caring about their game _on purpose_. They have to... At least until such time as they don't, and new-new-NEW GW reverts back to Old GW and the simulation repeats.

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## Saambell

If the stock drop is more on the investor/stockholder side like some have suggested, the issue might be more due to perceived connections. The stock and profits jump massively for a hobby company during the times a large number of major countries had piles of restrictions and thus large numbers of people with more free time. More free time turns maybe customers of a hobby company into new customers. Thus the huge jump in profits. However, if that is the cause of profits, those countries going back to normal is actually bad for hobby company profits, as those people who got free time for the hobby have now lost said free time. Add that on top of global inflation and rising living costs, and that's a ton of maybe lost customers. Hence the stock drop. Even if GW isn't losing customers or profit, if their investors and stockholders think there will be a loss, they will sell their shares before it doesn't happen. Now that the conditions that seem to have boosted interest and sales of GW stuff have left, so too will those investors just looking for a quick buck off a jumping company.

----------


## Forum Explorer

For that matter, I'd  say this is hardly indicative of GW 'caring'. There was a lot of people asking GW if Crusher Stampede and the Leviathan Supplement were going to be legal and predicting how broken it would be. The rules that have come out since Christmas have been pretty poorly balanced almost across the board.

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## Cheesegear

> The rules that have come out since Christmas have been pretty poorly balanced almost across the board.


Again, if GW wants to continue to say 'We're a models company!', they're gonna go downhill, fast...Oh wait.

What they need to do is convince the players that they still have, that the rules they produce for the game is still better than anything that they could come up with, on their own.
TTRPGs have done this, forever:
'Yes, you can do what you want, it's your table...But your rules are stupid and dumb, and here are our official rules that aren't terrible and dumb like yours.'

At present, it's very, very clear to everyone that you don't need GW-models to play GW-games. This was always true. But back in the day the alternative to a $65 Drop Pod, was a Coke can. When your options are Drop Pod or a Coke can, the Drop Pod is Just Better, even at its absurd cost. In 202x, the alternative to way overpriced Tank...Is a different Tank from a different company...Maybe even a Tank that you can make in your own home!

So yeah.

Your stock drops ~25% in a little less than two quarters, during the biggest retail season. What do? Do the thing you _can_ do that actually requires almost no investment at all; Make a good game.

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## lord_khaine

Hmm. Well its a convincing argument. 
That the stock dropped like it got murdered seems to speak for itself.
It could explain a rush to seemingly get a new edition out?

And if your in a panic mode over dropped stock. 
Then yeah making the game playable by fixing the worst outliers seems minimal investment.
Especially when the players find the broken stuff for you.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

If the last couple years have taught us anything, it's that the amount of money a company makes and the value of its stock have very little to do with each other. 

Anyways, seems like a decent time to buy some GW stock.

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## LeSwordfish

You would think that if "release broken stuff then fix it when people buy it" was so sensible profitable, this would be the time to double down on it.

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## Renegade Paladin

> You would think that if "release broken stuff then fix it when people buy it" was so sensible profitable, this would be the time to double down on it.


That only gets you so far, though, before the people who did that the first few times get wise to the scheme, and the people who didn't get tired of the game being broken.

----------


## Wraith

Pre-pandemic, one year GW's revenue was 50% from licensing their IP. This year we got Total Warhammer 3 and we're still due Blood Bowl 3, Dark Tide, Chaos Gate, Space Marine 2 and a ****-tonne of iOS and mobile stuff aside, so if they're going to double down on anything I expect it might be that. Double the profits for the low, low cost of rubber-stamping a bunch of stuff that last year was only a "maybe" project.  :Small Tongue: 

It's not as though GW are in any danger of closing down and going bust. They're not losing money, they're just not making quite as much profit as before.

----------


## Dragonus45

> You would think that if "release broken stuff then fix it when people buy it" was so sensible profitable, this would be the time to double down on it.


Much like how a single bad movie can make tons of money of incoming hype before dropping off hard on the sequels, something being very profitable in the short term like Break The Game/Nerf The Game cycle looks like the best idea ever by the numbers right up until it totally backfires on you.

----------


## Avaris

> Hmm. Well its a convincing argument. 
> That the stock dropped like it got murdered seems to speak for itself.
> It could explain a rush to seemingly get a new edition out?
> 
> And if your in a panic mode over dropped stock. 
> Then yeah making the game playable by fixing the worst outliers seems minimal investment.
> Especially when the players find the broken stuff for you.


The edition element doesnt work with lead times on products though. The codexes being released now likely had their rules finalised at least six months ago, and were committed to print maybe three months ago at the latest. The timing of the releases, and any new edition, was set years ago, albeit it was then messed up by covid.

Putting out new rules fixes will have no effect on the stock level, and as Destro_Yersul says, stock fluctuations have very little relationship with actual profits. Plus, the GW profit position is actually fairly stable: they put out an earnings report last month, confirming that revenue over the three months December/January/February (i.e. the key retail season) was in line with expectations, and paying a sizeable dividend. Investors are spooked, but not by anything inherent to GW: the massive falls in stock have happened all over due to the recent economic shocks.

Putting out fixes is good, but theyre certainly not instigated by any cynical and/or desperate attempts to boost profits more than any other company would, or in a panic over share price.


In other news, had a weekend with my first wargaming in a while! Got to play my first games of Necromunda and Kill Team, and then a great game of Crusade in which my Daemon Prince was obliterated in turn 1 by Tau Fire Warriors (auto wounding on 6s is nasty if the dice are with you!), and which came down to my last surviving Plague Marine in a fist fight with an Ethereal while the fire warriors were eaten by Spawn in the background. I purposefully didnt charge anything else in to allow for the dramatic climax!

Anyone who has played both Necromunda and Kill Team, do you recall how your first impressions compared? I enjoyed both, but to my surprise found Necromunda more straightforward in my head and less complex feeling. Possibly its because the base game is still much more like 40k with extra bits added, whereas Kill Team is whole new mechanics?

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Your stock drops ~25% in a little less than two quarters, during the biggest retail season. What do? Do the thing you _can_ do that actually requires almost no investment at all; Make a good game.


I guess my point is that they aren't doing that yet.

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## Cheesegear

> This year *we got Total Warhammer 3 and we're still due Blood Bowl 3, Dark Tide, Chaos Gate, Space Marine 2 and a ****-tonne of iOS and mobile stuff* aside, so if they're going to double down on anything I expect it might be that.
> [...]
> It's not as though GW are in any danger of closing down and going bust.


GW wont die. What it will do is change into something it isn't, currently. Most likely into something tabletop wargamers don't actually want.

The GW _I know_ will die. But GW itself, as an entity will still be around for quite some time.

I have seen it going around that the reason their stock fell was because it was an attempt to sell to another company - most likely Hasbro - that didn't take. When GW was not sold, or the deal fell through, or it was made clear that Hasbro wasn't interested in an IP about superhuman murderers murderering alien murderers murderering demonic murderers murderering murdering terminators...That's a potential reason for the stock drop. Stock-inflation-with-intent-to-sell.
But, the stock market is crazy and anything and everything can be true all at the same time.




> Anyone who has played both Necromunda and Kill Team, do you recall how your first impressions compared?


My first impression of Kill Team is that it's awful. It felt like going from WHFB to AoS. I'm sure there's a market for Kill Team, but it isn't me. I might be in the market for Kill Team a long time from now, after they fix several things and allow customisation back. But that time isn't now. However, given how GW has treated it's non-major games during the pandemic (e.g; Cursed City), it's hard to know when GW will get around to making Kill Team a good game.

----------


## Callos_DeTerran

> My first impression of Kill Team is that it's awful. It felt like going from WHFB to AoS.


What WAS the big change from WHFB to AoS that people hate so much? I've never seen WHFB, but I've seen games of AoS and they look like a lot of fun, so wondering at the issue here.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> What WAS the big change from WHFB to AoS that people hate so much? I've never seen WHFB, but I've seen games of AoS and they look like a lot of fun, so wondering at the issue here.


Well it was a completely different game for starters. Secondly, when AoS was first released it had no army guidelines or something? I don't know, I can't remember exactly.

----------


## DaedalusMkV

> What WAS the big change from WHFB to AoS that people hate so much? I've never seen WHFB, but I've seen games of AoS and they look like a lot of fun, so wondering at the issue here.


Aside from the fact that they have for all intents and purposes nothing in common? The release of AoS was so bad that calling it a dumpster fire would be an insult to burning garbage. It barely even deserved to be called a _game_. It had no real mechanics for balancing anything, so the best you could do to have a 'fair fight' was eyeball it. The mechanics were incredibly shallow, the special rules were about a 50/50 mix of broken and useless, when they weren't just a straight-up joke. I'm pretty sure I could have come up with a better ruleset given a week and a notebook. AoS on launch was pathetically, insultingly bad, and the only thing WHFB fans could think was 'they killed our game for _this?!_'

AoS is probably a perfectly fine game these days. It's definitely a lot better than those horrid first months where even the most casual of gamers had to work hard to have fun, assuming it was possible for anyone to have fun at all. But it's a completely different genre of wargame from WHFB, which was all about ranked-up units, constricted movement and tactical positioning. Suffice to say that for many of us who liked WHFB, AoS was a slap in the face at best. Imagine if Age of Empires suddenly rebranded as a MOBA, and you'll get roughly the degree of genre shift we're talking about.

----------


## Cheesegear

> Imagine if Age of Empires suddenly rebranded as a MOBA, and you'll get roughly the degree of genre shift we're talking about.


I'm kind of imagining _WarCraft 3_ to _Heroes of the Storm_, myself.

Or perhaps more accurately, WC3 to WoW.

----------


## Saambell

> I'm kind of imagining _WarCraft 3_ to _Heroes of the Storm_, myself.
> 
> Or perhaps more accurately, WC3 to WoW.


Or relative to the thread: Dawn of War 1 to Dawn of War 2. Or Dawn of War 1 to Dawn of War 3. Or Dawn of War 2 to Dawn of War 3. The shift in each of those games was quite big.

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## Avaris

> What WAS the big change from WHFB to AoS that people hate so much? I've never seen WHFB, but I've seen games of AoS and they look like a lot of fun, so wondering at the issue here.


I feel it was less about the game and more, as others have said, the massive shift in genre and expectations. AoS1 was a perfectly fine, if rather simple, game, but was one of the most mismanaged releases GW has ever done, and soured me on the hobby for several years. Understand that when Im generally positive about how GW handles things nowadays, its because Im comparing to how AoS1 was put out.

I feel the major issue was that the change occurred with basically no warning: in the year or so up to it you had 5 expensive (even by GW standards) supplemental books put out called the End Times. These should have been a fun send off, but they never actually said we are retiring WHFB at the end of this, so when they ended the game line a month or so after releasing the last, without announcing what was next, people were left very confused. In hindsight, the name is obvious, but it wouldnt be the first or last time GW released something implying major changes and didnt follow through (looking at you Psychic Awakening).

Rules wise, the shift to a straight roll to hit and to wound based on weapon (rather than comparing to the opponents stats) was a major shift, as was the change to round bases. The special rules also seemed to mock the players who had been invested in their existing armies, such as getting Bretonnian players to pretend to ride a horse. These were intended by the writers as a fun extra, but reports suggest management meddling meant it ended up being the core product.

Theres a pretty good insight into how messed up the AoS release was in an interview on Goonhammer, here: https://www.goonhammer.com/the-goonh...igmar-and-40k/

----------


## LeSwordfish

Warhammer Fantasy was a complicated tactical game, which included a lot of balance for competitive play and a very specific tone in the lore. It was very tactical, with positioning and resource/risk management very important.

AOS is a much simpler game designed to be easier to pick up and play, and AOS1 was even simpler. At release, it had essentially no rules suitable for competitive balancing at all. The tone of the lore was wildly different, and classic characters were originally tied to risible special rules. Positional play was essentially meaningless, and most of the tactical complexity came in through listbuilding, which was, initially, fairly hollow.

I enjoy playing AOS a lot, but it's a very different game to WFB, and in a way that people who loved old WFB often didn't like. (I think someone compared the difference as chess to checkers. Neither is a bad game but I suspect if you told Gary Kasparov he could only play checkers he'd be peeved. And to play checkers with his favourite pieces he'd have had to leapfrog his opponent to get Kinged.) In particular, those differences were most pronounced in the early days, and GW lost a lot of goodwill.

Like I said, I enjoy AOS. I've played it at the competitive level. But I don't think I'd recommend it to a WFB die-hard, even in it's current state, at least not beyond "well, you've got the models, might as well give it a shot".

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## LCP

> I feel it was less about the game and more, as others have said, the massive shift in genre and expectations. AoS1 was a perfectly fine, if rather simple, game


That might have been something you could credibly say after it got the first handbook that patched it, but absolutely not on the day it released. AoS1.0 was fire-in-a-rubbish-bin, are-they-trolling-us bad, even putting all the joke rules about getting rerolls if you got your willy out aside.

No way to balance armies against each other. 10 skavenslaves = 10 ogres. Take 9 ogres instead and the skaven player gets a handicap for outnumbering you.Models that legally couldn't throw attacks unless you overlapped bases.Summoners who could summon summoners who could summon summoners who could...The ability for 1 player to take an arbitrarily large number of turns before the other player got to take 1.

That's an interesting interview for sure, though.

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## Adrastos42

> [SNIP]
> 
> In hindsight, the name is obvious, but it wouldnt be the first or last time GW released something implying major changes and didnt follow through (looking at you Psychic Awakening).


To be fair to those who didn't realise (including me, as I recall), it also was not the first time GW had run the End Times narrative, compete with Archaon, new models, and new rules. There was definitely precedent for this not being the actual end.

And yeah, AoS started to get much better once they actually had points costs and so on, but that start was....not great.

I do wonder how much things might have changed if Total War: Warhammer had come out before WHF was finished.

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## Blackhawk748

> I do wonder how much things might have changed if Total War: Warhammer had come out before WHF was finished.


That was the other reason not to suspect that WHFB was dying, because Total War Warhammer had been announced and killing the tabletop game that inspired it would be dumb.

But this is GW and the release condition of AoS says everything it needs to about this era.

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## LCP

As a WFB fan who 100% got suckered into buying the ET books - it was crystal clear from about Book 2 at the latest that they were heading for a major shake-up of the setting and the game. Major characters were being killed off, major locations were being destroyed, the rules were evolving in ways that were clearly pointing at something beyond 8th edition. I never thought they were going to end up back at the _status quo ante_ - I just didn't anticipate that they would actually explode the planet and make a new setting with almost 0 continuity with the old.

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## Cheesegear

> Or relative to the thread: Dawn of War 1 to Dawn of War 2. Or Dawn of War 1 to Dawn of War 3. Or Dawn of War 2 to Dawn of War 3. The shift in each of those games was quite big.


DoW 1 was a fairly pedestrian RTS with a weird resource system. The fact that it had many expansions and QoL improvements helped it's longevity significantly. _Soulstorm_ was a huge improvement to the game and I'm pretty sure gave it a second life.

DoW 2 to this day is one of my favourite games, ever. A hybridised RPG/RTS, that I wish there were more similar games. The multiplayer was...Frustrating though. I didn't like the multiplayer.
- _Retribution_ kind of took out the RTS element. I'm not going to say I didn't like Retribution. But it just wasn't the same.

- _The Last Stand_ was added at some point, which was a good mode. But had a very frustrating progression system. A PvE co-op mode, but your team-mates' gear is limited by their level (effectively time spent). Cool. You get paired with some Level 6s and that's game. But _each_ Champion has their own progression system, and you have to level up (remember, time spent) with _each_ of them, individually? FMD. Anyway, I liked Last Stand somewhat, even if the matchmaking is/was terrible.

DoW 3 was more like DoW 2's multiplayer - jarring for me, personally and I didn't like it. Oddly, a close example might be WarCraft 3? But I liked WC3. I did not like DoW3.
Although I will admit that a lot of my dislike for DoW 3, comes from _love_ of DoW 2, and I know I'm not alone on that.




> I just didn't anticipate that they would actually explode the planet and make a new setting with almost 0 continuity with the old.


I don't remember what release era was like.
But currently 'The World That Was' is mentioned well, more than zero times. There is some continuity (none of it matters, though), now. I can't tell you if it was there on release.

Mannfred has an entire audio book series. I _did_ listen to those and I _didn't_ hate them. He knows he's responsible for...Everything. _Prisoner of the Black Sun_ was mid-ish 2015, and the rest of _The Realmgate Wars_ after that.

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## LCP

that's why I said 'almost'

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## Fergie0044

Ah DoW. I spent a LOT of time with that game. Dark Crusade was the peak for me, I remember really disliking Soulstorm and quickly going back to DC. Why did you think SS was so good? As much as I loved DoW, I suspect it wouldn't hold up so well if I was to go back now, very much a product of its time.

DoW 2 on the other hand has the potential to be a timeless classic. Bringing together the 40k universe with the near perfect RTS base that the Company of Heroes games were built on. 

DoW 3 looked awful, and at that point in my life time was limited so I never tried it.

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## Destro_Yersul

> That might have been something you could credibly say after it got the first handbook that patched it, but absolutely not on the day it released. AoS1.0 was fire-in-a-rubbish-bin, are-they-trolling-us bad, even putting all the joke rules about getting rerolls if you got your willy out aside.


The thing that exemplifies AoS1 for me was one of those special rules. It stands in my memory as a symbol of everything that was wrong with that entire release; if your army included Settra the Imperishable, and you had to kneel for any reason during the game, you immediately lost. It is the only 'game' I have ever seen where you could accidentally lose by going to retrieve errant dice.

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## Eldan

> As a WFB fan who 100% got suckered into buying the ET books - it was crystal clear from about Book 2 at the latest that they were heading for a major shake-up of the setting and the game. Major characters were being killed off, major locations were being destroyed, the rules were evolving in ways that were clearly pointing at something beyond 8th edition. I never thought they were going to end up back at the _status quo ante_ - I just didn't anticipate that they would actually explode the planet and make a new setting with almost 0 continuity with the old.


Yeah, that's the thing, it was a _huge_ shakeup even during the end times. 

That said, a lot of people still expected this was going to be something like what 40k had in the last few years. Abadon's 13th crusade happens, the galaxy is hacked in half by the eye of terror, Ynnead is born, Guilliman returns, that kind of thing. Still the same world, but with an advanced timeline. 

For the first two books, it looked like that. All the long-hinted at major shakeups were happening, but for some reason, all at once. Nagash, Archaon, Malekith, etc. And yes, named characters died, but they didn't start with the major ones. 

Then they started killing _everyone_. Systematically. Imagine if someone opened up Lexicanum for 40k, got a list of all named characters from all novels for every faction, and wrote a short death scene for every one of them.  Like, take this:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ult...e_Ultramarines
And go: Calistes: Eaten by Tyranids. Garus: stomped on by a chaos titan. Saul Invictus: shot with a plasma cannon. 

That's what the books felt like. Not only that, but some characters (granted, characters of subfactions who hadn't been important for decades, but still) went out like utter chumps. I thought some of the ideas were _quite interesting_. Like the big shake up in Phoenix King lore. But then you also got entire nations killed off in a paragraph where they did nothing to stop chaos. I _liked_ Kislev. The Old Widow of Kislev should at least temporarily stop the chaos invasion, that's her entire deal. Nah, forgot about that. 

That already started to destroy a lot of goodwill before they even announced a new world and edition.


_Then_ we went from a 300 page rulebook to a 2 page rulebook. With no points mechanism or similar, where the game just told you to bring equal number of models. One chaos knight, one goblin? Yeah, sure! Where we went from ten pages of terrain and formation rules to "all models move freely".

----------


## LCP

> The thing that exemplifies AoS1 for me was one of those special rules. It stands in my memory as a symbol of everything that was wrong with that entire release; if your army included Settra the Imperishable, and you had to kneel for any reason during the game, you immediately lost. It is the only 'game' I have ever seen where you could accidentally lose by going to retrieve errant dice.


The one positive thing you can say about them is that they were at least factorisable. If you didn't like them (and who did) you could ignore them and nothing else depended on them. The thing that stuck with me the most about the rules at release was how much _necessary_ stuff was _missing._

----------


## Durazno

I was frustrated with Dawn of War 3 because it felt like each and every unit expected me to give my full attention to using their fiddly micro abilities as though they were a MOBA character.  Jain Zar's abilities were kind of neat, but I had a hard time taking full advantage of them while fighting on two other fronts.

----------


## Blackhawk748

Ya, the End Times started off ok. I was one of the people that figured they were gonna kill off a few characters from each Faction to make room for new people. Get some real badass scenes where two of them kill each other, stuff like that. 

Ya, no. A handful got epic stuff, most died like a redshirt. 

Still like how Settra went down. 

Still hate what they did to Mannefred.

----------


## Eldan

Also "Here's a list of mysteries in the setting the players have been discussing for 20 years". And then they again just went down the list confirming all of them.

----------


## Hootman

> The thing that exemplifies AoS1 for me was one of those special rules. It stands in my memory as a symbol of everything that was wrong with that entire release; if your army included Settra the Imperishable, and you had to kneel for any reason during the game, you immediately lost. It is the only 'game' I have ever seen where you could accidentally lose by going to retrieve errant dice.


I...actually kind of love that one. First time I'm seeing it. Now, granted, I have always refused to take anything AoS-related seriously because of what they did to my beloved sandy boney boyz, but seeing something crazy like "Settra _does not kneel_. If you, his vessel into this tabletop game, even so much as crouch so as to put yourself below another, you immediately lose the game. Settra leaves the field, disgusted with your weakness." in the game would have brought me a twisted joy. It could be fun to try to convince/dramatically order other folks at the shop to retrieve your dropped dice, or tie your shoe for you...

If the game is a total joke. Beer, pretzels, that sort of thing. But never in a competitive scene, obviously.

The one special rule I always vaguely remember is that you got a bonus for playing Empire if you had a moustache (either natural or worn).

----------


## Eldan

Yeah, there were a few like that. I vaguely remember a dwarf rule involving having a beer? 

It was just kind of weirdly tonally inconsistent. I've seen sillier rules in Beer and Bretzel Games, so if someone made Munchkin: the Tabletop, I could see it.


I think it's more that some people felt made fun of. The world was just blown up, all our favorite characters were dead, GW gave us two pages of _clearly_ incomplete rules, but hey, here's a funny joke about Imperial Generals with moustaches.

----------


## LCP

It would be bad rule-writing even if the history hadn't been there. Some of the joke rules might have been reasonably fun the first time you ever played them. After that... if someone forgets Settra's rule and has to get something from off the floor, are you really going to say "gotcha, I win, pack away this game we spent an hour setting up"? If the rule says you have to sing "I'm a little teapot", are you going to make your opponent go through with that every time, or after a while are you just going to treat it as if they had done it without making them do it?

Others of the joke rules were difficult or impossible to use if you were not able-bodied and/or male, and that's bad even the first time.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

> I...actually kind of love that one. First time I'm seeing it. Now, granted, I have always refused to take anything AoS-related seriously because of what they did to my beloved sandy boney boyz, but seeing something crazy like "Settra _does not kneel_. If you, his vessel into this tabletop game, even so much as crouch so as to put yourself below another, you immediately lose the game. Settra leaves the field, disgusted with your weakness." in the game would have brought me a twisted joy. It could be fun to try to convince/dramatically order other folks at the shop to retrieve your dropped dice, or tie your shoe for you...
> 
> If the game is a total joke. Beer, pretzels, that sort of thing. But never in a competitive scene, obviously.
> 
> The one special rule I always vaguely remember is that you got a bonus for playing Empire if you had a moustache (either natural or worn).


I get why they did it, and I enjoy Settra memes as much as the next Tomb Kings aficionado, but...

For how long is it going to be fun being an imperious jerk to the people around you? Especially for your opponent, who now has to put up with retrieving your dropped dice or what have you. The rule is obviously a joke, and trying to make the game less serious and more fun is something I'm all for, normally, but it didn't feel good. It felt rushed and kinda disrespectful. Like "hey, we blew up the world and characters you all spent years getting invested in. You can have this, instead! We blew it all up. For _this._"

----------


## LeSwordfish

Sounds like the kind of thing that would be really fun in a White Dwarf article for Open Play - give you a specific special rule for each hero or something and you and your opponent both have to abide by them for a casual game.

----------


## Dragonus45

> As a WFB fan who 100% got suckered into buying the ET books - it was crystal clear from about Book 2 at the latest that they were heading for a major shake-up of the setting and the game. Major characters were being killed off, major locations were being destroyed, the rules were evolving in ways that were clearly pointing at something beyond 8th edition. I never thought they were going to end up back at the _status quo ante_ - I just didn't anticipate that they would actually explode the planet and make a new setting with almost 0 continuity with the old.


As a notorious and proud AOS hater I may as well weigh in here. Same, around the time they did the big shakeup for Elf lore and had them all become one faction I thought that was so damn cool I started buying into the game against despite being so broke I had to by my hobbies off plasma donation money, and despite my all time favorite fantasy faction Bretonnia getting set on fire off screen like chumps. I thought this was going to be a major change going into a new edition and a new status quo to make the game a bit more accessible. What I got was a lot of my money wasted and one of my favorite settings strangled to death in a manner so embarrassingly badly written and insultingly poorly thought out I had to wonder if they hired a random child who had eaten a bag of sugar to outline it. I won't to go into the general issues of AOS on launch and the hilarity of things like Sigmarines, but it could have been the best game ever made with rules printed on pure gold written in mithril letters by Sigmar himself and it would have been leaving the gate with handicap. What it turned out to be was just insult to injury at that point really. I dropped GW official products pretty much entirely till Sisters.

----------


## Eldan

> Sounds like the kind of thing that would be really fun in a White Dwarf article for Open Play - give you a specific special rule for each hero or something and you and your opponent both have to abide by them for a casual game.


Our game store used to have the Easter Game(s), a specific joke event. Some years, it was a humongously huge multiplayer 40k apocalypse event that went for 2 days, but sometimes also a team tournament for fantasy. Once even Mordheim. It always had the silliest rules, whatever the store owner could come up with, and most people brought strange experimental lists. We still fondly remember the game with the rampaging Bunny monster in the middle of the field that flattened a titan. 

Those rules would have fit right in there. Used once. In an event that everyone agreed was a joke game beforehand.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> As a notorious and proud AOS hater I may as well weigh in here. Same, around the time they did the big shakeup for Elf lore and had them all become one faction I thought that was so damn cool I started buying into the game against despite being so broke I had to by my hobbies off plasma donation money, and despite my all time favorite fantasy faction Bretonnia getting set on fire off screen like chumps. I thought this was going to be a major change going into a new edition and a new status quo to make the game a bit more accessible. What I got was a lot of my money wasted and one of my favorite settings strangled to death in a manner so embarrassingly badly written and insultingly poorly thought out I had to wonder if they hired a random child who had eaten a bag of sugar to outline it. I won't to go into the general issues of AOS on launch and the hilarity of things like Sigmarines, but it could have been the best game ever made with rules printed on pure gold written in mithril letters by Sigmar himself and it would have been leaving the gate with handicap. What it turned out to be was just insult to injury at that point really. I dropped GW official products pretty much entirely till Sisters.


I'm curious if you got into 9th Age.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> As a notorious and proud AOS hater I may as well weigh in here. Same, around the time they did the big shakeup for Elf lore and had them all become one faction I thought that was so damn cool I started buying into the game against despite being so broke I had to by my hobbies off plasma donation money, and despite my all time favorite fantasy faction Bretonnia getting set on fire off screen like chumps. I thought this was going to be a major change going into a new edition and a new status quo to make the game a bit more accessible. What I got was a lot of my money wasted and one of my favorite settings strangled to death in a manner so embarrassingly badly written and insultingly poorly thought out I had to wonder if they hired a random child who had eaten a bag of sugar to outline it. I won't to go into the general issues of AOS on launch and the hilarity of things like Sigmarines, but it could have been the best game ever made with rules printed on pure gold written in mithril letters by Sigmar himself and it would have been leaving the gate with handicap. What it turned out to be was just insult to injury at that point really. I dropped GW official products pretty much entirely till Sisters.


Hi, I did this, but in the edition right before the End Times. I got into Vamprie Counts, actually how I found Mantic as I wanted cheaper zombies, and during the End Times I bought an entire VC army (with a Nagash even) and a all their cool End Times bits even.

Then 2 months after I got it they killed the game. Got to play a single game with them. Was incredibly pissed.

Now they are my Undead army for Kings of War and they've been having a grand old time.

Still upset about Mannfred.

----------


## Eldan

> I'm curious if you got into 9th Age.


I did. I'm on the team. Background writer, Wiki editor, German translator and odd job person.

----------


## Dragonus45

> I'm curious if you got into 9th Age.


By the time I was really aware of it it was kind of dead. I  got into Heroclix and a couple of other games that needed less buy in and hobby work until more recently when Conquest really pulled me in.

----------


## 9mm

I'd say AoS got away from the silly rules but Battlescroll: The Hunt still exists.

----------


## Brookshw

Gotta say, $300 for Ash Wastes seems so absurd, I'm continuously amazed at GW.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> Gotta say, $300 for Ash Wastes seems so absurd, I'm continuously amazed at GW.


...good lord.

Whats all in it?

----------


## Wraith

> ...good lord.
> 
> Whats all in it?





> 26 plastic miniatures, each supplied with the appropriate Citadel bases:
>  12 House Orlock models, including two Outrider Quads
>  14 Ash Waste Nomads, including four Dustback Helamites
> 
>  An array of modular Ash Wastes terrain including:
> - 2x Ash Wastes Hab Building
> - 1x Large Platform
> - 2x Small Platform
> - 5x Walkways
> ...


So the minis for the two factions are roughly equivalent to two Combat Patrols in size and price ($150 each) and then the two small buildings, a couple of ramps, the reversible mats, dice, tokens and books are "free". When you add it up like that it almost seems like sort-of reasonable value, and then you have to ask: What in God's name are we doing paying $150 for a Combat Patrol of 10 guys and a vehicle/walker?

----------


## Blackhawk748

> So the minis for the two factions are roughly equivalent to two Combat Patrols in size and price ($150 each) and then the two small buildings, a couple of ramps, the reversible mats, dice, tokens and books are "free". When you add it up like that it almost seems like sort-of reasonable value, and then you have to ask: What in God's name are we doing paying $150 for a Combat Patrol of 10 guys and a vehicle/walker?


No, no, no. _You. I_ don't pay 150 bucks for 10 dudes and a four wheeler.

I pay 30 dollars for like 20 Romans and then another 10 bucks for guns and kitbash like a sensible person.

----------


## Brookshw

> and then you have to ask: What in God's name are we doing paying $150 for a Combat Patrol of 10 guys and a vehicle/walker?


What indeed. I bought $500 worth of gift cards from my local gaming store in the early days of Covid when everything was shut down, originally I was thinking of using them on Old World, but the way GW is going I may just give that idea up and go 9th age or something else entirely.

----------


## Wraith

The Squats arrive on Necromunda, giving us the first look at a League of Votann squad.

Well... Kind of. In the lore, the Ironhead Prospectors aren't a part of the Leagues, they're refugees who broke off and landed within the Imperium, on Necromunda. Still, they look similar enough to the first Leaguer that was revealed that we can probably make a decent assumption on what the rest will look like from it. A sort of "Space Marine armour with a mix of Space Marine and Genestealer Cult weapons", kind of thing. There's a joke on Reddit where any mention of the mini's is met with a cry of "Rock and stone!" but every time I see something for these guys I'm less and less sure that it's a joke and not just a literal description.

Necromunda being their first true appearance both does and does not make sense, to me - the first Squat in 25 years was a Necromunda Bounty Hunter after all, but with the Ash Waste nomads also due out this weekend it seems like a very crowded schedule for the game that so far has only proved reasonably popular. A Kill Team can't be far behind, I think, but I'm mildly surprised that they didn't show up there first.

----------


## 9mm

> There's a joke on Reddit where any mention of the mini's is met with a cry of "Rock and stone!" but every time I see something for these guys I'm less and less sure that it's a joke and not just a literal description.


Gonna be honest, the only time I've ever seen sci-fi space dwarves that didn't look like Deep Rock Galactic and the like was the original Gay Leather Bar Biker Gangs of the original Squats.

Meanwhile I stare at the 30k reveals and wonder if being slightly smaller would bother me to much to make a chaos 40k army with that stuff.

----------


## LeSwordfish

I love the look of the 30k reveal, definitely getting the big box and some heavy weapons. I'm very hopeful for more plastic models in future, especially breachers and the Predator.

----------


## druid91

> The Squats arrive on Necromunda, giving us the first look at a League of Votann squad.
> 
> Well... Kind of. In the lore, the Ironhead Prospectors aren't a part of the Leagues, they're refugees who broke off and landed within the Imperium, on Necromunda. Still, they look similar enough to the first Leaguer that was revealed that we can probably make a decent assumption on what the rest will look like from it. A sort of "Space Marine armour with a mix of Space Marine and Genestealer Cult weapons", kind of thing. There's a joke on Reddit where any mention of the mini's is met with a cry of "Rock and stone!" but every time I see something for these guys I'm less and less sure that it's a joke and not just a literal description.
> 
> Necromunda being their first true appearance both does and does not make sense, to me - the first Squat in 25 years was a Necromunda Bounty Hunter after all, but with the Ash Waste nomads also due out this weekend it seems like a very crowded schedule for the game that so far has only proved reasonably popular. A Kill Team can't be far behind, I think, but I'm mildly surprised that they didn't show up there first.


I dunno about your groups.... but Necromunda is actually more popular than 40k among my friend group.

----------


## Wraith

> Gonna be honest, the only time I've ever seen sci-fi space dwarves that didn't look like Deep Rock Galactic and the like was the original Gay Leather Bar Biker Gangs of the original Squats.


True... But isn't that all the more reason to imagine something - anything - else, from the company that renamed Orcs into Orruks and Elves into Aelves so that they'd be easier to copyright? 

Make them obsessed with energy shields instead of bulky physical armour, or make their cultural weapon into scythes or double-ended swords instead of axes and mining stuff, or something? Or make them the same but give with cossack hats, something a bit more distinctive?

Anything that means they're not tripping over Deep Rock or, more to the point, something like Mantic Games' Forge Fathers. Just seems like something easily avoided, and out of character for how careful GW have been about such things in the last few years.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> Anything that means they're not tripping over Deep Rock or, more to the point, something like Mantic Games' Forge Fathers. Just seems like something easily avoided, and out of character for how careful GW have been about such things in the last few years.


I really do love how the Forge Fathers look. They always looked super Dwarfy and not just short Space marines. Lovely ornate armor, big faces on things. BEARDS. Lots of hammers.

Good stuff.

----------


## Artanis

> True... But isn't that all the more reason to imagine something - anything - else, from the company that renamed Orcs into Orruks and Elves into Aelves so that they'd be easier to copyright? 
> 
> Make them obsessed with energy shields instead of bulky physical armour, or make their cultural weapon into scythes or double-ended swords instead of axes and mining stuff, or something? Or make them the same but give with cossack hats, something a bit more distinctive?
> 
> Anything that means they're not tripping over Deep Rock or, more to the point, something like Mantic Games' Forge Fathers. Just seems like something easily avoided, and out of character for how careful GW have been about such things in the last few years.


I dunno. I mean Orruks and Aelves are still blatantly just Orks and Elves. Making them the exact same thing with a slightly different name seems par for the course when it comes to GW.

----------


## hamishspence

> Make them obsessed with energy shields instead of bulky physical armour, or make their cultural weapon into scythes or double-ended swords instead of axes and mining stuff, or something? Or make them the same but give with cossack hats, something a bit more distinctive?



Eyewear was a Squat thing, and the Necromundan guys have it.

Tricycles were a thing too - and the Leagues of Votann faction still have them, but in hover form:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...-their-trikes/


One thing the fully enclosed version of the helmets of the Necromundan guys makes me think of - those of the Inceptors - the Primaris Marines with jump-packs, massive helmets over their inner helmets, and tiny vision slits. The Necromundan guys' helmets, in a couple of cases, have a similar vision slit and the helmet being set deeply into high-collared armour, rotating to the left or right like a turret. Though the rest all have the face exposed.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB...Inceptors-2020

----------


## Cheesegear

> Making them the exact same thing with a slightly different name seems par for the course when it comes to GW.


If you were to google Squats, you'll get the following:
- One of the most important gym exercises
- Men in tracksuits doing a pose
- Something to do with toilets
- _Maybe_ you'll get an autocomplete for squatter's rights.

So yes of course the name needs to be changed to Votann. You need the feed SEO algorithm.

----------


## Wraith

> I dunno about your groups.... but Necromunda is actually more popular than 40k among my friend group.


It's weird; in my area, Necromunda is a universally liked game, but no one plays it. Not just for Obvious Reasons too - we gave it a try, agreed it was much better than Kill Team and way less hassle and expense than 40k... And that was it, we just didn't bother again. 

I'd love it if Ash Wastes peaked some interest and we tried it again, but ~£150 GBP is a hefty buy-in for something that might only get played once, again.




> I really do love how the Forge Fathers look. They always looked super Dwarfy and not just short Space marines. Lovely Ornate armor, big faces on things. BEARDS. Lots of hammers.


They do look great. If anything, I prefer them to what we have seen of the Leagues who look very plain so far. I kind of think they look more like Tau than Astartes, all smooth plates and rounded curves - it's not bad in any way, I was just hoping for different.




> I dunno. I mean Orruks and Aelves are still blatantly just Orks and Elves. Making them the exact same thing with a slightly different name seems par for the course when it comes to GW.


A fair point. "The minimum amount of effort needed" is more like the GW we know, I suppose. Definitely a missed opportunity to have done something impressive and iconic, though.

----------


## Eldan

Yeah. I wouldn't have been surprised if they had been called Skwotts or Deworves.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

:Small Sigh:   I wish the shop would let me organize the leagues they want to do.  They're back to the stupid format they used the first time they organized one without me (which they did without me because I refused to do it in the middle of a bloody plague).  



> Each month the maximum power level will go up until we hit 50 power level.
> It will not cost anything to add new units to your army.
> All existing units must remain in your list but can be modified with requisition points.
> June = 25 power
> July = 30 power
> August = 35 power
> September = 35 power
> October = 40 power
> November = 45 power
> December = 50 power


Most armies do not scale in neat 5PL increments and if you can't take units out of the list to make room they'll be stuck.  Also, _this is not Crusade; it's an escalation league._  :Small Annoyed: 

Edit:  Also since "It will not cost anything to add new units to your army," I'm half tempted to just add in all my Baneblades in month 2 since it doesn't cost anything and their Power Rating is something.   :Small Tongue:

----------


## Wraith

This looks less like  an escalation league, and more like a "start with a small army and then consistently buy 1 new box/blister every month because that's the only way you'll be sure it fits into the arbitrary limit".

Otherwise, what else can you do? Start in June and then spend 3 months playing at a handicap before you can add in a Predator or something? What happens if you're playing a list and find out that its hard-countered by everyone else, what do you do - just stop playing and drop out of the league since you can't make revisions? Sounds like lots of fun...  :Small Sigh:

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> This looks less like  an escalation league, and more like a "start with a small army and then consistently buy 1 new box/blister every month because that's the only way you'll be sure it fits into the arbitrary limit".
> 
> Otherwise, what else can you do? Start in June and then spend 3 months playing at a handicap before you can add in a Predator or something? What happens if you're playing a list and find out that its hard-countered by everyone else, what do you do - just stop playing and drop out of the league since you can't make revisions? Sounds like lots of fun...


I am going to tell them this - for the second time in as many years - once.  The first time I tried to convince the shop owner (who almost certainly hasn't read the Crusade rules) and the rookie who took it upon himself to organize (who clearly does not _understand_ the Crusade rules, or at least the concept of the Order of Battle as distinct from the army list for a game) that this format was a bad idea and accomplished nothing but a headache.  This is the third league they've run; the second time they didn't use this format because, I thought, they'd learned the lesson the hard way.  I suppose they didn't.  So they get one warning.

In other news, Goonhammer has acquired the ITC Battles app and 40kstats.com.

----------


## Cheesegear

> This looks less like  an escalation league, and more like a "start with a small army and then consistently buy 1 new box/blister every month because that's the only way you'll be sure it fits into the arbitrary limit".


It's worse. It's buy a _specific_ box/blister every month. As a Space Marine player, if you told me I could only increase my army by 5 PL every month you're basically telling me that I can only commit to MSU spam, I can't take any MSU that's _good_, and almost all Vehicles are off-limits to me.

[Remember, increasing the model-count by *1*, doubles the PR, but doesn't double points]

[HQs don't count]

Intercessors
Assault Intercessors
Incursors
Tactical Squad

Company Champion
Scouts
P. Apothecary
Apothecary
Company Ancient
P. Ancient
B. Ancient
Bladeguard Veterans
Company Veterans
Judiciar
Reivers

Assault Squad
Invader (singular)
Bike Squad
Scout Bikes
Attack Bikes
Suppressors

Land Speeders (except Typhoons)
Eliminators

[*Zero* Heavy Support]

Rhino
Drop Pod

Basically anything above 5 PR has to be front-loaded into the initial 25 PR or you can't ever get it, or rather, it's _inefficient_ to get it. However, the intent, I believe, of this sort of stuff is to get people to start new armies (not just take their existing Baneblade and call it a day). But people starting new armies don't frontload their collection with Terminators and Aggressors...But in this format, if they don't do that, they can't ever _get_ Terminators.

It's like; Who has the most efficient building blocks of 5 PL at a time?

----------


## Artanis

> Edit:  Also since "It will not cost anything to add new units to your army," I'm half tempted to just add in all my Baneblades in month 2 since it doesn't cost anything and their Power Rating is something.


DOO EET.

"I warned you this was a bad idea. Guess I'll have to *show* you idiots why it's a bad idea."  :Small Amused:

----------


## 9mm

> It's like; Who has the most efficient building blocks of 5 PL at a time?


Clearly it is Knights, have one at the start, add the second at the end!  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> It's like; Who has the most efficient building blocks of 5 PL at a time?


That'd be infantry Guard.  5PL is an infantry squad and a support character, or a squad of Bullgryns.  I suspect not coincidentally, the organizer of this who came up with the format (which, to be abundantly clear, is not me) primarily plays Guard.  

Note that you can still use the Crusade requisition that lets you make a squad bigger rather than necessarily taking a new unit.

----------


## Mystic Muse

Does anyone here have recommendations on a metallic white paint, or otherwise making white not such a pain to use as a base color? 

I know Duncan has a video on Crisp White, but GW doesn't have a Celestra Grey spray.

----------


## 9mm

> Does anyone here have recommendations on a metallic white paint, or otherwise making white not such a pain to use as a base color? 
> 
> I know Duncan has a video on Crisp White, but GW doesn't have a Celestra Grey spray.


don't know about metalallic but I use Valaho Game Color Dead White as my main white.

----------


## Brookshw

> don't know about metalallic but I use Valaho Game Color Dead White as my main white.


How well does it hold up in the container? I.e., is it chunky in a few months?

----------


## 9mm

> How well does it hold up in the container? I.e., is it chunky in a few months?


its a proper dropper bottle haven't had any issues with the bottle I bought in 2019.

----------


## Hootman

Anyone know what is terrible in Grey Knight circles currently? I've been trying to work on old small projects, and I found my tiny number of GKs and figured they'd be easy enough to finish and get some satisfaction from.

*Spoiler*
Show

Terminator Librarian (Staff)
Old Metal Castellan Crowe (could be any cool guy with a sword)

5 Terminators (3 Thunderhammers [Daemonhammers?], 2 Swords, 1 with Heavy Flamer [Incinerator?])

10 Teleport Marines (2 Hammers, 2 Rotary Guns, mostly paired Falchions)

9 Regular/Purifier Marines (1 Halberd, 2 Heavy Flamers, 2 not!Heavy Bolters,  mostly paired Falchions)
(Where did the 10th guy go?)

Rhino Chassis (TL Lascannon)

Rhino Chassis (TL Lascannon)

Venerable Dread (TL Lascannon, Missile Launcher)

Dreadnought (Fist and Multimelta)

Dreadnought (same)

And I'm pretty sure I have one of those Baby Carrier things somewhere, but cannot currently find it.


Is there anything obvious I'm missing from my collection that GKs really need? Anything I really shouldn't be using, or need to switch the equipment on? Is there a meaningful difference between Termies and Paladins, such that I might not want to use them interchangeably based solely on which stat block is more worth the points? Can you still use Inquisitors, and are they alright? I have a fairly cool Inquisitor guy I kit-bashed with epaulets, a feathered hat, and a Powerfist--could use a suggestion for what's in his other hand--but I don't know if he can still hang out with the GKs without breaking their subfaction combo bonuses or whatever.

----------


## hamishspence

The rules for Agents of the Imperium (including Inquisitors), in War Zone Octarius Book 1: Rising Tide, make them include-able (1 per Detachment) without taking up any slots - and without interfering at all with Detachment abilities, or army-wide restrictions (like Chapter Tactics). 

You could use your Inquisitor as a regular one, or as a "Kyria Draxus counts-as" (she has a powerfist - but she also has a shuriken catapult and a tiny pet dragon).

Regular Inquisitors don't wear power armour though - they wear carapace armour. Only some of the special characters get Power Armour or better (the rules for Terminator Armour inquisitors seem to be gone).

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Anyone know what is terrible in Grey Knight circles currently? I've been trying to work on old small projects, and I found my tiny number of GKs and figured they'd be easy enough to finish and get some satisfaction from.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Terminator Librarian (Staff)
> Old Metal Castellan Crowe (could be any cool guy with a sword)
> 
> 5 Terminators (3 Thunderhammers [Daemonhammers?], 2 Swords, 1 with Heavy Flamer [Incinerator?])
> ...


Termies have objective secured, Paladins have...something. An extra attack I think, and some stratagem support? I'm not 100% sure. 

Dreadknights (baby carriage things) are still widely considered the best unit for Grey Knights, so those are a definite must. Grey Knights also have a really good Psychic secondary which kinda requires you to take a bunch of small units so it is easy to do. So just some more infantry squads. 

And yes, you can use Inquisitors with no penalties.

----------


## Hootman

> The rules for Agents of the Imperium (including Inquisitors), in War Zone Octarius Book 1: Rising Tide, make them include-able (1 per Detachment) without taking up any slots - and without interfering at all with Detachment abilities, or army-wide restrictions (like Chapter Tactics).





> Termies have objective secured, Paladins have...something. An extra attack I think, and some stratagem support? I'm not 100% sure. 
> 
> Dreadknights (baby carriage things) are still widely considered the best unit for Grey Knights, so those are a definite must. Grey Knights also have a really good Psychic secondary which kinda requires you to take a bunch of small units so it is easy to do. So just some more infantry squads. 
> 
> And yes, you can use Inquisitors with no penalties.


Awesome. Good to know that Inquisitors can still hang out with other books--it would be a shame to waste a hat as nice as that model's.

So, I just looked at the stat blocks for some of these guys, and...uh...what? All Grey Knights have at least THREE attacks per model? With "free" power weapons that shred almost all armor and deal 2 damage each? And Marines still get the +1 attack on the first round of combat, right? That's 21 attacks from a basic squad of 5 guys, killing an average of 7.78 enemy Marines if my math is right.

That's insane. You would need *47* Choppa Boyz to have the same impact as *5* Grey Knights. 

Naturally, I built all my guys back when Falchions were good, but now Swords are the clear winner in any situation where D2 would be helpful (which, as we all know, is at least half of all factions). I...don't really want to go through the rigmarole of re-arming them, so...I guess I'll have to settle for "costs more, does less" or declare "counts-as" rules, if I ever field them. The same five-man squad kills 5.56 Marines instead, and is better against 1W models. This is fine. Just...didn't expect the difference to be so stark. A +50% effectiveness jump is huge.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Awesome. Good to know that Inquisitors can still hang out with other books--it would be a shame to waste a hat as nice as that model's.
> 
> So, I just looked at the stat blocks for some of these guys, and...uh...what? All Grey Knights have at least THREE attacks per model? With "free" power weapons that shred almost all armor and deal 2 damage each? *And Marines still get the +1 attack on the first round of combat, right?* That's 21 attacks from a basic squad of 5 guys, killing an average of 7.78 enemy Marines if my math is right.
> 
> That's insane. You would need *47* Choppa Boyz to have the same impact as *5* Grey Knights. 
> 
> Naturally, I built all my guys back when Falchions were good, but now Swords are the clear winner in any situation where D2 would be helpful (which, as we all know, is at least half of all factions). I...don't really want to go through the rigmarole of re-arming them, so...I guess I'll have to settle for "costs more, does less" or declare "counts-as" rules, if I ever field them. The same five-man squad kills 5.56 Marines instead, and is better against 1W models. This is fine. Just...didn't expect the difference to be so stark. A +50% effectiveness jump is huge.


Double check that because I don't believe they do. They just got that +1 attack all the time, and thus the whole three attacks a model thing.

----------


## lord_khaine

So.. according to leaked rules. There now is a more invulnerable invulnerable safe. 
Thats.. well its perhaps getting a touch silly?  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Wraith

Is this related to the new Angron model? I can understand how a Daemon Primarch, arguably the most powerful single unit in the game, could have a rule that says No to Mortal Wounds, but on anything else.... eehh....

----------


## Fergie0044

> Is this related to the new Angron model? I can understand how a Daemon Primarch, arguably the most powerful single unit in the game, could have a rule that says No to Mortal Wounds, but on anything else.... eehh....


New demons rumours. They're getting a new type of save, related to their armour save but immune to AP modifiers and will be different vs shooting or melee. Purposely *not* an invun save, presumably to make it not interact with various other abilities that affect invun saves, eg Death Hex. Just a baseless rumour atm though.

----------


## 9mm

> New demons rumours. They're getting a new type of save, related to their armour save but immune to AP modifiers and will be different vs shooting or melee. Purposely *not* an invun save, presumably to make it not interact with various other abilities that affect invun saves, eg Death Hex. Just a baseless rumour atm though.


I mean Nighhuant have ethereal saves that can't be modified; I can totally see that be ported over to 40k.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Speaking of silly: 




 :Small Amused:

----------


## Wraith

No gauntlet is perfect, but I really enjoyed that one. Interesting selection of characters, reasonable use of rules... and they seem like fun guys  :Small Smile: 

I have to ask though... What even is the point of a character like Abaddon? Playing against something that complicated, that ridiculous and just completely, inanely powerful can't possibly be fun.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> No gauntlet is perfect, but I really enjoyed that one. Interesting selection of characters, reasonable use of rules... and they seem like fun guys 
> 
> I have to ask though... What even is the point of a character like Abaddon? Playing against something that complicated, that ridiculous and just completely, inanely powerful can't possibly be fun.


Honestly, that Gauntlet gives the wrong impression about Abaddon. He's strong sure, and can certainly kill pretty much anything on the charge. But dealing 9 wounds in 3 phases is actually pretty easy. 




> Speaking of silly:


I haven't seen so many 4+ rolls made by a single person in a long time. Geeze, that Abbadon was averaging like three 6s every time he rolled to wound, and he made so many saves. He should've died back at the Slaanash Greater Demon.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

So, I'm noticing that doubles tournaments are starting to pop up wherein they randomize your teammate as well as your opponents every round, to the point where people have been confused about the one I'm running next week because we're not doing that.  Maybe it's just me, but that seems to defeat the entire purpose of doubles, which is to play with a friend.   :Small Confused:

----------


## Mystic Muse

> So, I'm noticing that doubles tournaments are starting to pop up wherein they randomize your teammate as well as your opponents every round, to the point where people have been confused about the one I'm running next week because we're not doing that.  Maybe it's just me, but that seems to defeat the entire purpose of doubles, which is to play with a friend.


Yeah, that sounds horrible. Especially considering some players' personalities.

----------


## lord_khaine

> So, I'm noticing that doubles tournaments are starting to pop up wherein they randomize your teammate as well as your opponents every round, to the point where people have been confused about the one I'm running next week because we're not doing that. Maybe it's just me, but that seems to defeat the entire purpose of doubles, which is to play with a friend.


It does kinda seem like it defeats the purpose of it?
Bet its an idea cooked up by some GW event manager who has not figured out how introvert the average 40k player is xD

----------


## Cheesegear

> So, I'm noticing that doubles tournaments are starting to pop up wherein they randomize your teammate as well as your opponents every round, to the point where people have been confused about the one I'm running next week because we're not doing that. Maybe it's just me, but that seems to defeat the entire purpose of doubles, which is to play with a friend.


Speaking as someone who has been to several doubles tournaments, because doubles tournaments generate more money...

The purpose of randomising your partner, either at the start of the tournament, or between rounds (eww...), is so that you can't necessarily build a synergistic list and then smash face the entire time. There are significant cons to such an idea. But if the main *pro* is that you prevent people from power-gaming, and that's all you care about, then job's a good'un.

It's what you do when your meta is completely ****ed...The idea being that hopefully the 'bottom half' of players can cancel out the 'top half' of players, and the whole thing should even out.

Unless the randomiser is so good it ends up pairing two power-gamers together regardless, and they smash face the entire time because the =RandBetween() said so.

----------


## Wraith

All I'm hearing is, "The best way to win is to build the most OP, broken list that you can, ignoring anything that your partner can or might do except to hope that they're doing the same thing".

I don't see how it fixes a meta - it just encourages the power gamers to be even more oppressively isolated, because the only thing they can rely on is making their list as OP as possible to carry a weaker partner. What else can you do, if you have no idea what synergy you have - or even IF your two armies can HAVE synergy - before each game?

And if you ARE the weaker partner... better Git Gud or else every bad dice roll and failed-by-a-1/4-inch-charge is going to be the fault of you and your crappy 'balanced' list. What? MY fault? Nonsense, I brought three Smashf***ers and optimised my objectives until the cards bled, it must be you and your stupid 'thematic list' dragging us down!

----------


## Renegade Paladin

I know I've told the story before, but I once played ringer partner to Matt Root, who was the ITC champion several years back, when his doubles partner got sick the night before.  He was a super nice guy, and also dragged my 5x Leman Russ and a Techpriest list kicking and screaming to first place.   :Small Tongue:   He wasn't even playing a bleeding edge of the meta list; it was competently built Ork infantry, which as it happens pairs really well with Guard armor, which he couldn't possibly have planned.

----------


## Cheesegear

> I don't see how it fixes a meta - it just encourages the power gamers to be even more oppressively isolated, because the only thing they can rely on is making their list as OP as possible to carry a weaker partner.


Sure. Potentially that implies that you're _such_ a good player and/or have _such_ a good army that you _can_ carry a weak(er) partner. As far as I care, if there is a player or army that can do that, they _deserve_ to win the tournament - because that's simply how good they are.




> What? MY fault? Nonsense, I brought three Smashf***ers and optimised my objectives until the cards bled, it must be you and your stupid 'thematic list' dragging us down!


Speaking from experience...If you read the tournament packet, and that's the kind of thing that you believe, or would believe from reading such a stipulation...You aren't coming to the tournament.

The stipulation pre-weeds bad sportsmen from the tournament. Speaking from experience...A lot of people - and bad sportsmen - still turn up anyway.
...I think partly because they believe that they'll be randomly paired with someone good.

----------


## LeSwordfish

The fluff thread looks to be beyond the necro limit so i'll ask my fluff question here. Is there a specific mark of censure for the imperial fists? Similar to the red helmet for heresy-era ultramarines, or the red hands for the Night Lords.

The latest White Dwarf has a fun story from it's heresy timeline, in which Inwit is besieged, and a group of Imperial Fists escape and head for help. Instead, they run into the Dark Angels, and the Lion instructs them that they work for him now, that Inwit will need to handle it's own problems, and that they're needed for his crusade against the Traitor homeworlds. As good servants of the imperium, obviously they agree. However, I'd like one of my characters in my 30K list to be someone who objected to this, and took a ship and left, in the hope of getting assistance. Obviously, Dorn would censure him for this. 

What visual effect should i expect that to have? I believe Lysander was censured - would something have visually reflected that?

----------


## Cheesegear

> Is there a specific mark of censure for the imperial fists?


Not really. Punishments are private.
No-one should know that you're a failure. _You_ know you're a failure, and that's all that matters.




> What visual effect should i expect that to have?


Imperial Fists wear scrimshawed bones to represent that they have _already_ atoned for a previous punishment...Usually the bones of their brothers that died due to their failure. But you wouldn't wear your Brother's bones to represent shame. The shame is in _not_ taking your Brother's soul to battle. You wear your Brother's bones to battle to represent forgiveness or atonement. Or, you accept that even Space Marines are not omnipotent, and you accept that your Brother dying in the middle of the battle wasn't _actually_ your fault, and you lay their bones to rest and forgive yourself... In that case there wouldn't be any visual cue - not for the self-imposed punishment, nor for the self-acceptance.

The Pain Glove is a non-invasive method of pain. Leaves no scars or marks.
Scrimshawing _your own_ bones is _extremely invasive_ and _extremely painful_. But no-one would really know what you carved into your own bones because a Space Marine would heal - which kind of indicates how hard scrimshawing into your own skeleton would even be for a Space Marine (and Marine-bones...Aren't bone; They're cement).




> I believe Lysander was censured - would something have visually reflected that?


I don't believe so.

----------


## LeSwordfish

That all sounds fair, thanks. I knew Sigismund's punishment was private, but I wasn't sure if he was a special case.

I could look around for some bones to stick on the outside of his armour, or think of both my own way to display this censure and a reason why he would choose to wear it openly. I can see a certain type of marine being like "can you believe it, they punished me??", and wanting to wear that openly.

----------


## Storm_Of_Snow

Assuming they're an officer and thus would have some leeway in their appearance, the easiest would probably be some kind of paint scheme change, maybe paint their helmet a different colour (say bone), invert their colours, or personal heraldry -say paint the shoulder pad black and the Fists icon yellow.

After that, maybe give them something like the Templars tabard, especially if no one else has one, or some other types of robes or a particular design of helmet (a skull form?). What about a Deathwatch blackshield shoulderpad with the chapter icon worked in as though the chains are over the top?

Or maybe they've chosen to have their hand replaced with a bionic.

----------


## Wraith

> Not really. Punishments are private.
> No-one should know that you're a failure. _You_ know you're a failure, and that's all that matters.





> That all sounds fair, thanks. I knew Sigismund's punishment was private, but I wasn't sure if he was a special case.


After the Council of Nikia, the Imperial Fists locked their Librarians away in a dungeon and told them to stay there. Bound to do so by duty, the Librarians said to Garro that the worst part of it wasn't that they were confined, but that they were away from the Crusade. They're not allowed to fight and to serve, even in their limited capacity as tactical Marines. It was, to paraphrase, their duty to endure the 'shame' of being inactive.

Similarly, Sigismund was informally demoted ("You are not my son") and sent off to face the first wave of the Solar War. Officially he was sent away from his Primarch's side, which is punishment enough, but reading between the lines I think he was expected to die on the front-line. He even considers it, a sort of "suicide-by-Sons of Horus" in _The Solar War_, but then decides that his duty requires him to keep living, and keep suffering his ignominy. Death would be the easy way out.

With that in mind, I would imagine that rather than wearing red gloves like the Night Lords, or a red helmet like the Ultramarines, a censured Imperial Fist might wear... nothing. Just yellow armour and the Fist sigil - he's not permitted to wear his own heraldry, or receive the blessing of purity seals, until he has atoned in full. Until he's made up for mistake, he loses all status and becomes a faceless man - for without honour, who are you, even?

How to show that on a mini? Maybe show silver marks where his service studs or laurels have been scratched off? Or paint him as specifically more battle-worn compared to his companions - he'll be allowed to paint his armour fresh when his punishment is complete, and until then he's only allowed basic repairs because he's not allowed to wear the honour of the full Fists regalia?

----------


## lord_khaine

> and Marine-bones...Aren't bone; They're cement


This is in turn kinda dumb. Bones are amazingly resillient. A miracle of enginering.
Cement meanwhile is brittle. it dont flex. it break.

----------


## Grim Portent

Cement is an oversimplification, they're still organic bones, just laced with ceramite deposits in addition to their calcium and collagen.

Since the flexible part of bone is the collagen, a marines bones shouldn't lose out in that regard. The question is really if ceramics can be as durable as the mineral part of bone if structured in the same way, which I don't know enough about material science to say.

----------


## Artanis

> Cement is an oversimplification, they're still organic bones, just laced with ceramite deposits in addition to their calcium and collagen.
> 
> Since the flexible part of bone is the collagen, a marines bones shouldn't lose out in that regard. The question is really if ceramics can be as durable as the mineral part of bone if structured in the same way, which I don't know enough about material science to say.


Ceramite is what Imperial armor is made from, so it's probably a heck of a lot stronger than bone.

----------


## Saambell

> Ceramite is what Imperial armor is made from, so it's probably a heck of a lot stronger than bone.


Eldar use bones for armour, Marines use armour for bones. Seems about right.

----------


## Cheesegear

> [Sigismund] even considers it, a sort of "suicide-by-Sons of Horus" in _The Solar War_, but then decides that his duty requires him to keep living, and keep suffering his ignominy. Death would be the easy way out.
> [...]
> for without honour, who are you, even?


Well yeah. Sigismund is still a 'Fist at the end of the day. One of the OGs. Sigismund can't die until he schools Abaddon on honour and duty. Are Sigismund's last words about the glory of the Emperor? Dying in faithful service? Doing Dorn proud?

_'You will die as your weakling father died. Soulless. Honourless. Weeping. Ashamed.'_

Defeating Abaddon in single combat would've been great. But making Abaddon stare at the wall and have an existential crisis, every time he thinks about him (and Abaddon thinks about Sigismund _a lot_)? That's a close second.

----------


## Storm_Of_Snow

> Cement is an oversimplification, they're still organic bones, just laced with ceramite deposits in addition to their calcium and collagen.
> 
> Since the flexible part of bone is the collagen, a marines bones shouldn't lose out in that regard. The question is really if ceramics can be as durable as the mineral part of bone if structured in the same way, which I don't know enough about material science to say.


Let's go with no. Ceramics are brittle because they don't flex, stretch or compress like plastics or metals do - they're very strong, but once they go beyond that point, they'll break.

Plus for bone, you'd need to get blood into the internal structure to keep it alive, allow it to repair when damaged, fight any infections that happen to get in as a result of injury/damage, generate new blood cells in the long bone marrow and so on. You could make them solid, but at that point, you might as well just pull the bones out and replace them with some other material.

I'd personally go with a bioengineered "superbone" composite, with some metal wires inlaid during the initiates implantation processes. Add the black carapace (especially on the torso) and the marine's skin and musculature as padding, plus their armour when they're wearing it and you're about there.




> Eldar use bones for armour, Marines use armour for bones. Seems about right.


Wraithbone is condensed warp matter, not skeletal remains.

----------


## Wraith

> I'd personally go with a bioengineered "superbone" composite, with some metal wires inlaid during the initiates implantation processes. Add the black carapace (especially on the torso) and the marine's skin and musculature as padding, plus their armour when they're wearing it and you're about there.


Your version makes way more sense. But nonetheless, Space Marines' diets are laced with ceramic compounds, which are absorbed directly into their skeletal structure to make them stronger. I don't know WHY this is confirmed in the lore, but it is.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## PhoenixPhyre

Since when has WH40K, science, reason, and good sense ever belonged in the same sentence (without appropriate negations)? If this is the thing you balk at....

----------


## Grim Portent

> Let's go with no. Ceramics are brittle because they don't flex, stretch or compress like plastics or metals do - they're very strong, but once they go beyond that point, they'll break.


So does the calcium compound found in bone. Dried bones snap very easily, most of the flex and compression found in living bones comes from the connective tissue found in them.

It's not a matter of 'ceramic shaped like a bone' vs bone, it's 'bones that use ceramic in addition to calcium for their inorganic component' vs bone. The bones still do all the stuff that bones are supposed to do and are formed of the same latticework of organic and inorganic material.

How the Ossmodula makes the body absorb ceramics is the part that really doesn't make sense, since it's a modification to the pituitary gland and the osteoblasts that make bones come from the bone marrow, so they should still be working entirely in calcium.

----------


## Cheesegear

> I could look around for some bones to stick on the outside of his armour, or think of both my own way to display this censure and a reason why he would choose to wear it openly. I can see a certain type of marine being like "can you believe it, they punished me??", and wanting to wear that openly.


If this helps...

*Spoiler: Deathwatch; Rites of Battle*
Show

_Many Imperial Fists bear small tokens of lost Battle-Brothers, engraving their bones with descriptions of their deeds so that they may never be forgotten and will live on forever. Ossific Relics take the form of small bones, normally finger or hand bones, carried in a small pouch near the Battle-Brother's heart, or sometimes on a chain around his neck or wrist. Far from grisly or barbaric, this practice is the ultimate act of remembrance for an Imperial Fist, and the relics of his fallen brethren are his most valued possessions._





> The latest White Dwarf has a fun story from it's heresy timeline, in which *Inwit is besieged*, and *a group of Imperial Fists escape and head for help*. Instead, they run into the Dark Angels, and *The Lion instructs them that they work for him now*, that *Inwit will need to handle it's own problems*, and that they're needed for his crusade against the Traitor homeworlds. As good servants of the imperium, *obviously* they agree. However, I'd like one of my characters in my 30K list to be someone who objected to this, and took a ship and left, in the hope of getting assistance. *Obviously, Dorn would censure him for this.*


I gave this another once-over for context. Now, I haven't read the _White Dwarf_, but the way you explain it...The more I think about it...No.
Or at least I hope it doesn't go down as simply as this, and you're explaining it with too much brevity.

1. Your Homeworld is burning. Your Duty, is to get help, mostly so that your Brothers don't die.
2. You run into your Uncle - who is not your Dad, and _definitely_ not your Granddad. Your Uncle not only refuses to help you, but also says your homeworld can burn - and by extension, your Brothers can die. Oh really?  :Small Confused: 
3. _Obviously_ (that word bothers me), you abandon your Duty to help your Uncle - again, your Uncle isn't your Dad.

...Oh hey, did you abandon your Brothers to go chasing after what you believe are Heretics?
_That's ****ing what Sigismund did, and Dorn said 'You're not my son.'_ Holy **** WTFBBQ.
No.
No. Wrong.

_Obviously_ (that's that word again) Dorn would censure every Marine who went with Lion (and probably denounce them as 'Crusaders', not 'Imperial Fists'), and the one Marine who came back would be praised - _especially_ if he actually came back with help, and that that help (for thematic reasons, I like Space Wolves, but that depends on the timeframe of this event...Maybe Raven Guard or Salamanders works better), saved both the 'Fists and the inhabitants of Inwit - Dorn's people.

The Marine who came back, might consider every one of his Brothers who abandoned him, dead. He completed his Duty. He was sent for help. He brought help. ...But at what cost? I can almost see using a Chaplain-like model, or a Legion of the Damned model, if you've got one...So many of his Brothers are 'dead', his armour is all bones.

----------


## LeSwordfish

I definitely simplified a bit - however, I kind of see the point. Do you want to save Inwit or win the war? What are you expecting from Dorn, a detachment of troops taken away from defending Terra? What is the strategic value of rescuing Inwit, as opposed to cutting off the traitor resources?

----------


## Cheesegear

> What is the strategic value of rescuing Inwit, as opposed to cutting off the traitor resources?


You've missed the critical flaw of Rogal Dorn, and the Imperial Fists as a whole; _Family_.

Would you save your Brother if it meant the Imperium burned? ...Yes.
If your Father told you to kill your Brother; What do? ...Have an existential crisis.

----------


## LeSwordfish

I am not entirely sure I agree with that interpretation, but I appreciate you know the Imperial Fists way more than me!

----------


## lord_khaine

> Your version makes way more sense. But nonetheless, Space Marines' diets are laced with ceramic compounds, which are absorbed directly into their skeletal structure to make them stronger. I don't know WHY this is confirmed in the lore, but it is.


Clearly GW writes know even less about material science.
And generally just biology. Than their players.

----------


## Artanis

> Clearly GW writes know even less about material science.
> And generally just biology. Than their players.


Pretty much, yeah.

"Space marines have an organ that lets their bones absorb the space-mithril they eat" probably isn't even in the top 10 of the setting's list of Things With No Basis In Biology.

----------


## Cheesegear

> I am not entirely sure I agree with that interpretation, but I appreciate you know the Imperial Fists way more than me!


I guess my points of contention are:

If you have Space Marines continuously and only doing 'the most strategically viable thing', they're no longer characters anymore. They're the kind of Marines that huge segments of the audience (including myself) have hated for decades. It's the flaws that make Space Marines interesting. It's why I'm (still) so upset about Kor'sarro; They _had_ it. They _had_ the arc in the palm of their hands...And they dropped it.

Imperial Fists are not Ultramarines, and they're even less, Dark Angels.

You, yourself mentioned that Sigismund got censured. Remember _why_? Remember what Dorn cares about?

One of the biggest problems with certain Chapters - especially the First and Second Founding - is that many venerate their Primarch and their Chapter, over the Emperor and the Imperium. The Imperial Fists are one of those Chapters - for better and worse. Albeit Imperial Fists care about their Primarch and their _Brothers_. This extends to Marines they've served with on the Deathwatch, and certainly to their Homeworlds.

Dorn absolutely sees a difference between 'Crusaders' and Imperial Fists. He gets it, sure; Traitors Bad, Emperor Good. He understands the thought process. But that ain't it, chief. Again, all's you have to do is look at what happened to Sigismund. _'You're not my son.'_

As always, I hate that over the years, all the Space Marine Legions - and Chapters - have slowly simply morphed into the same Chapter. But of course you have to present Imperial Fists as 'Good Soldier Boys' because they're now on the box art for the Heresy.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> If you have Space Marines continuously and only doing 'the most strategically viable thing'


And even that can be interesting, just so long as its at least somewhat unique to that group of Marines, because it can also be a flaw. They just constantly pick the best strategic action, which will probably involve just letting Guardsmen take stupid numbers of casualties while they go surgical strike things.

Yes, they are effective, but pretty much no one likes them.

----------


## lord_khaine

Alas.. it truely -is- the best tactic by far.
Space Marines are so expensive to train, that likely a thousand dead guardsman for a Marine living is a good trade.
Likely a hundred thousand dead guards are still an acceptable trade for a marine life? Or around there?
Since well.. guardsmen basically makes more of themselves if left alone for a while.

----------


## Cheesegear

> And even that can be interesting, *just so long as its at least somewhat unique to that group of Marines*, because it can also be a flaw. They just constantly pick the best strategic action, *which will probably involve just letting Guardsmen take stupid numbers of casualties* while they go surgical strike things.


I've already read that story. Probably half a dozen times...At least.




> Yes, they are effective, but pretty much no one likes them.


This is why people like the Imperial Fists and Space Wolves.

What if - and hear me out. What if...What if we were combat effective, _and_ we didn't treat Guardsmen Humans-that-are-nice-to-us, like ****, because they're the backbone of the Imperium and without them, what are we even fighting for?

'All Space Marines are a*holes.'
No. Wrong. There are at _least_ nine different Space Marine personalities. But nuance is hard. Just make all Space Marines order-following Ultramarines* and that way you don't have to think too hard.
*_Then again, not even Uriel Ventris is an order-following Ultramarine - and he's an order-following Ultramarine!_

----------


## Blackhawk748

> I've already read that story. Probably half a dozen times...At least.


Agreed, it's only interesting if its actually somewhat unique. And no, this is not supposed to apply to the Ultramarines. They are Space Romans.




> This is why people like the Imperial Fists and Space Wolves.
> 
> What if - and hear me out. What if...What if we were combat effective, _and_ we didn't treat Guardsmen Humans-that-are-nice-to-us, like ****, because they're the backbone of the Imperium and without them, what are we even fighting for?
> 
> 'All Space Marines are a*holes.'
> No. Wrong. There are at _least_ nine different Space Marine personalities. But nuance is hard. Just make all Space Marines order-following Ultramarines* and that way you don't have to think too hard.
> *_Then again, not even Uriel Ventris is an order-following Ultramarine - and he's an order-following Ultramarine!_


I hate what the Ultramarines turned into. WE ARE ROMANS IN SPACE NOT RULES LAWYERING JACKASSES WHO SLAVISHLY FOLLOW A BOOK. The Codex is a big book of good tactical and logistical suggestions that are to be cherry picked.

Seriously, it's like I need Graham Mcneil and the writers of Space Marine to be the only ones allowed to write Ultramarines or something.

----------


## Lord Torath

Do the Salamanders have a history of valuing human life?

In the fan-made Index Astartes vol 1, the Salamanders' Primarch's Curse has them opposing plans that lead to the death of civilians, even indirectly.  I presume they got that from somewhere, but I'm not certain where (the Official Primarch's Curse for the Salamanders involves being unable to change your mind, but I like the unofficial one better).

----------


## Artanis

> Do the Salamanders have a history of valuing human life?
> 
> In the fan-made Index Astartes vol 1, the Salamanders' Primarch's Curse has them opposing plans that lead to the death of civilians, even indirectly.  I presume they got that from somewhere, but I not certain where (the Official Primarch's Curse for the Salamanders involves being unable to change your mind, but I like the unofficial one better).


Relative to other IoM military forces, yes. I don't know a ton of details, but they do have a reputation for standing their ground to protect civvies when others have retreated.

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## Dragonus45

> Relative to other IoM military forces, yes. I don't know a ton of details, but they do have a reputation for standing their ground to protect civvies when others have retreated.


If I remember correctly they are also the SM Chapter most in touch with the people who live on their home planet and maintain something that looks like a real social life amongst the people there.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> Do the Salamanders have a history of valuing human life?
> 
> In the fan-made Index Astartes vol 1, the Salamanders' Primarch's Curse has them opposing plans that lead to the death of civilians, even indirectly.  I presume they got that from somewhere, but I'm not certain where (the Official Primarch's Curse for the Salamanders involves being unable to change your mind, but I like the unofficial one better).


I wanna say it was one of the Wars of Armageddon, but I could be misremembering. They stuck up for a bunch of Guardsmen and Civies and stayed back to help them get out of there.

----------


## Eldan

> If I remember correctly they are also the SM Chapter most in touch with the people who live on their home planet and maintain something that looks like a real social life amongst the people there.


Yeah, with them, it's a thing that they occasionally go home and visit their families.

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## lord_khaine

Likely the only chapter thats still vaguely in touch with their former humanity. 
Certainly the ones most in touch.

----------


## Cheesegear

> [Salamanders are] Likely the only chapter thats still vaguely in touch with their former humanity.


Umm...No.
On one end of the scale you have Dark Angels who get mind-wiped during recruitment and have no connection at all to Humanity; On the other end you have Salamanders who still make a point to know who their family is, and spend time with them, even generations down the line. Somewhere in the middle you have Ultramarines who, as a Chapter, are integrated into the entire socio-political sphere of a full sector of space - again, like Salamanders, Ultramarines _definitely_ know who their Family is. You have Blood Angels who make a point to know what Art is, because Art _is_ Life, Art _is_ Humanity.

Space Wolves did a thing after Armageddon II and went to bat _against_ the Inquisition over it,
Imperial Fists makes sure Terra itself doesn't implode on itself,
etc.

Most Chapters _don't_ separate themselves from Humanity - figuratively or literally. In fact, most of them make a point _not_ to. Space Marines aren't as pragmatic as people seem to think they are...Maybe that's why a lot of people think Space Marines are boring? Because they don't actually know what a Space Marine _is_. People think Superman is boring, after all.

But then again, I know that during the most popular time of 40K ever, Dark Angels were on the front cover, and Dark Angels seem to be the Space Marines everyone has in their head, when they think of a Space Marine;
Traitors Bad, Humans Dumb, Pragmatism 5 lyf, Lion for Emperor.




> Certainly the ones most in touch.


Sure. But that's not the same as the above thing you said.

----------


## tyckspoon

> But then again, I know that during the most popular time of 40K ever, Dark Angels were on the front cover, and Dark Angels seem to be the Space Marines everyone has in their head, when they think of a Space Marine;
> Traitors Bad, Humans Dumb, Pragmatism 5 lyf, Lion for Emperor.


..but also all entirely overcorrecting for a Past Mistake that none of them personally made but still feel deep shame for and are convinced that Nobody Can Ever Find Out. Which is still pretty human, just in a less positive "We want to try to retain our connections to the people we came from" direction.

----------


## Lord Torath

> Most Chapters _don't_ separate themselves from Humanity - figuratively or literally. In fact, most of them make a point _not_ to. Space Marines aren't as pragmatic as people seem to think they are...Maybe that's why a lot of people think Space Marines are boring? Because they don't actually know what a Space Marine _is_. People think Superman is boring, after all.


Deathwatch: Rites of Battle (RPG, not table-top) says that most chapters have little to no contact with the people they come from (this is from the Build-Your-Own-Chapter chapter of the book).  The options for connections to your recruitment population were all pretty minimal, and even the Direct Governance option was still pretty far removed.  So at least _someone_ at GW thinks they mostly ignore their roots.  That, or their communication with Fantasy Flight Games was particularly terrible back then.  Which is entirely possible.

Of course, they also talk about the selection processes frequently involving duels to the death, deadly journeys, and actual fights against full marines.  And this is for 8-10 year olds.

Of course, the Dark Angels Deathwing Terminators get their color from a group of terminators that went back to their homeworld and discovered it was under the control of a relatively late-stage genestealer infestation, and they talked extensively about their personal histories before they became marines, as well as their duties as marines when discussing whether to take out the genestealers or call for an exterminatus.  They even used both their Marine names and their 'native' names when talking about it.

Mutable canon, and all that.

----------


## Cheesegear

> Deathwatch: Rites of Battle (RPG, not table-top) says that most chapters have little to no contact with the people they come from (this is from the Build-Your-Own-Chapter chapter of the book).  The options for connections to your recruitment population were all pretty minimal, and even the Direct Governance option was still pretty far removed.  So at least _someone_ at GW thinks they mostly ignore their roots.


Sure.
But none of that means that Marines remove themselves from Humanity, as a whole. It only means that they compartmentalise their own recruiting population, as a way to maintain the Death World survivors' mentality within their own population.

And it definitely doesn't mean that Marines remove the _figurative_ Humanity, from _themselves_, either. Hell, one of the biggest lies in all of 40K is '...and they shall know no fear.' They _absolutely_ show fear. Regularly. What they don't have, is thanatophobia. Now, you could argue that fear of death is part of what makes us human, and since Marines don't fear death, they aren't human...But that's a much, much larger conversation that I don't think belongs in this thread.

Separating yourselves from your recruitment population, doesn't mean that you wouldn't care if all of that population were to die in a flash. If a Marine Homeworld was glassed, and said Marine _Chapter_ didn't care and just swept it under the rug...I would start a conversation just like this one, where I would complain that whoever the author is, doesn't know **** about Marines.

Even the Dark Angels had their homeworld destroyed...And they _still_ wont let it go, ten thousand years later... And the Dark Angels don't care about anything.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Umm...No.
> On one end of the scale you have Dark Angels who get mind-wiped during recruitment and have no connection at all to Humanity; On the other end you have Salamanders who still make a point to know who their family is, and spend time with them, even generations down the line. Somewhere in the middle you have Ultramarines who, as a Chapter, are integrated into the entire socio-political sphere of a full sector of space - again, like Salamanders, Ultramarines _definitely_ know who their Family is. You have Blood Angels who make a point to know what Art is, because Art _is_ Life, Art _is_ Humanity.
> 
> Space Wolves did a thing after Armageddon II and went to bat _against_ the Inquisition over it,
> Imperial Fists makes sure Terra itself doesn't implode on itself,
> etc.
> 
> Most Chapters _don't_ separate themselves from Humanity - figuratively or literally. In fact, most of them make a point _not_ to. Space Marines aren't as pragmatic as people seem to think they are...Maybe that's why a lot of people think Space Marines are boring? Because they don't actually know what a Space Marine _is_. People think Superman is boring, after all.
> 
> ...


I find Space Marines boring because in nearly every (not all) story about Space Marines, I find the Space Marines to be the most boring part. I think they hit this perfect point of being just alien enough to lose out on what makes people interesting, and not alien enough to generate curiosity.

----------


## lord_khaine

> Umm...No.


Uhn.. Yes.




> And it definitely doesn't mean that Marines remove the figurative Humanity, from themselves, either. Hell, one of the biggest lies in all of 40K is '...and they shall know no fear.' They absolutely show fear. Regularly. What they don't have, is thanatophobia. Now, you could argue that fear of death is part of what makes us human, and since Marines don't fear death, they aren't human...But that's a much, much larger conversation that I don't think belongs in this thread.
> 
> Separating yourselves from your recruitment population, doesn't mean that you wouldn't care if all of that population were to die in a flash. If a Marine Homeworld was glassed, and said Marine Chapter didn't care and just swept it under the rug...I would start a conversation just like this one, where I would complain that whoever the author is, doesn't know **** about Marines.


See. Thats what im saying they do. Basically. Lore does of course change every time a new hack is allowed to write a GW book.
But in general, a space marine is a hypno-conditioned organic fighting robot. Who spend the majority of their awake hours training, praying, or maintaining their gear (kinda both). 
When they are not out doing mass murder that is. 

They spend perhaps 12 years? being human, and then x decades being turned into a space marine.
For a regular 100 year old space marine, being a human is at best a vague memory, and their interaction with actual humans are close to 0. 
There are those who strike up friendships with humans yeah. But they are the extreme outliers. 

But being detached from your humanity, and humanity in general, does at the same time not mean they wont care about a planet under their protection getting glassed.
But that can be from a myriad of other reasons. Pride. Duty. Obligation. The sheepherding dog can still care about the flock its protecting.

While.. Ultramarines are a bit of a weird case. Im uncertain about what i actually think about their connection.

----------


## Wraith

> See. Thats what im saying they do. Basically. Lore does of course change every time a new hack is allowed to write a GW book.
> But in general, a space marine is a hypno-conditioned organic fighting robot. Who spend the majority of their awake hours training, praying, or maintaining their gear (kinda both). 
> When they are not out doing mass murder that is.


I think this is more an issue between authors, rather than the characters.

For every dull, plodding, boltor-porn Space Marine, I can think of another with genuine pathos, or wonderfully nuanced charisma.

Sigismund remembers being an orphan who, aged 11, took others under his wing and beat people to death with an iron bar to protect them. The experience scarred him as much as it shaped his sense of honour and determination as an Astartes.

Nathaniel Garro isn't much different. He remembers growing up in Albion and what it was like before the Emperor, which is part of the reason as to why he stays loyal. Honour, loyalty and oaths aside, his childhood sucks and he doesn't want humanity to return to that.

In fact, the Heresy-era characters tend to be way better than their 40k equivalents in this regard. Saul Tarvitz, Serjanis, Uriel Ventris, Barabas Dantioch, Zahariel... They all have something going on apart from 'be a Space Marine'.

Then there's everyone written by Aaron Dembski-Bowden; Khârne, Argul Tal, Iskandar Khayon, Angron, Grimaldus... Hell, _Talos_ comes across as the tiniest bit sympathetic when he remembers his horrific childhood and even his mother.

In at least three of those examples, the tragedy of the story comes from what was done to them to make them Space Marines, and what they lost in the process. So the characters are definitely there, it's just a matter of who is writing them, and what they're doing with them. No argument from me that _Red Tithe_ is exactly like you describe above... But the cold horror is part of the theme, in that case.

----------


## lord_khaine

Well. Its just as much that my oppinion is shaped by the old codexes (back from when they actually had lore in them). 
And less by the heresy books. That i have not read that many off. 

So yes. I can understand why those authors turn their main characters more human than they should be.
Its to make them relateable, engaging people to read about. I also just dont think its that faithful to the source material.

----------


## Wraith

Genuine question, not at all meant as a 'gotcha!' moment or anything like that: At what point do GW-licensed novels about GW IP _become_ the source material, or not?

-------

In an unrelated subject, has anyone seen any good conversions or kitbashes of Primaris Apothecaries? I have two painted up and ready to go for my new Dark Angels force (apart from the transfers, that's the last bit to do) but I need a Chief Apothecary, and I want it to be a bit more special.

I'm thinking of taking another robed Primaris character and swapping out the backpack and left arm for an Apothecary's, so that it looks similar to the two picture but with "more robes" and I'm stuck for inspiration. The Primaris Chaplain looks about right, but I'm interested to know if anyone knows anything a bit more... impressive? The alternative is that I decapitate a broken Primaris Mephiston that I have lying around, but I'm not sure I could do it justice.

----------


## Brookshw

> Genuine question, not at all meant as a 'gotcha!' moment or anything like that: At what point do GW-licensed novels about GW IP _become_ the source material, or not?


The point where a new edition comes out that contradicts the old  :Small Big Grin:  It's turtles new editions, all the way down

----------


## Callos_DeTerran

So I recently started a 40k army, my first. And I'm kind of mulling over the lore and selection of faction for it and thought I would talk to people here about it. For the record, its a Chaos Knight army. And I'm waffling between a House Herpetrax force or a House Korvax force. I like what lore I've found in the codex about the both of them, but I'm wondering if there's any particularly cool stories about Chaos Knight houses. Or how people go about making stories for their armies, if they even do.

----------


## DataNinja

> The fluff thread looks to be beyond the necro limit so i'll ask my fluff question here. Is there a specific mark of censure for the imperial fists? Similar to the red helmet for heresy-era ultramarines, or the red hands for the Night Lords.


So, I'm dredging this back up, because I've been reading through my collection of books recently, and surprisingly a _Deathwatch_ short story of all things ("Weaponsmith", in _Deathwatch: Xeno Hunters_) has somewhat of an answer. Those Imperial Fists who have been shamed paint a black line down the center of their helmets to represent it, until their penance has been paid. Though the source paints it as a self-inflicted thing, I can imagine it could also extend to censure.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

> In an unrelated subject, has anyone seen any good conversions or kitbashes of Primaris Apothecaries? I have two painted up and ready to go for my new Dark Angels force (apart from the transfers, that's the last bit to do) but I need a Chief Apothecary, and I want it to be a bit more special.
> 
> I'm thinking of taking another robed Primaris character and swapping out the backpack and left arm for an Apothecary's, so that it looks similar to the two picture but with "more robes" and I'm stuck for inspiration. The Primaris Chaplain looks about right, but I'm interested to know if anyone knows anything a bit more... impressive? The alternative is that I decapitate a broken Primaris Mephiston that I have lying around, but I'm not sure I could do it justice.


I saw one that was the regular Primaris Apothecary but with a headswap for a Dark Angels robed head, and Fabius Bile's backpack.

----------


## Wraith

> So I recently started a 40k army, my first. And I'm kind of mulling over the lore and selection of faction for it and thought I would talk to people here about it. For the record, its a Chaos Knight army. And I'm waffling between a House Herpetrax force or a House Korvax force. I like what lore I've found in the codex about the both of them, but I'm wondering if there's any particularly cool stories about Chaos Knight houses. Or how people go about making stories for their armies, if they even do.


Off the top of my head, there aren't many stories of Chaos Knights. They're still a relatively new thing in the rules, and Knights haven't had many novels written about them in general.

I think the best place to look would be the Horus Heresy novels, particularly _Titandeath_. A lot of the other books have bits and pieces from the perspective of the Chaos Knights and Titans, but that one in particular is all about the conflict and might give you some ideas.

As for making up your own story, there are virtually no limits. Although some people might complain a little if your story contradicts a significant part of the lore - if your House got famous by stomping Roboute Guilleman to death, for example, that might be a bit out there as in the 'real' story he's still alive - BUT having said that.... Who cares what they think? You can make whatever story you like and they can't stop you, so long as you're having fun.

Most people, I think, start with a name. They make up a name that they sounds cool, and build on it from there. Anything that happens after that is probably fair game for a story.




> I saw one that was the regular Primaris Apothecary but with a headswap for a Dark Angels robed head, and Fabius Bile's backpack.


I like the idea of the cowled head, I have a few of those spare so it will go well with some of my other characters. I'm not sure about Fabius' backpack, it looks a bit too 'evil' for my aesthetic, but it's a good place to start. Thank you!

----------


## Cheesegear

> At what point do GW-licensed novels about GW IP _become_ the source material, or not?


Probably subjective.
When the perceived quality of the author and material is so good that the book said material comes out of, isn't just thrown into the dumpster fire.

So, you end up with this, in Codecies (I can't think of a novel example off the top of my head...Probably because I simply don't read the novels that I think I'm going to dislike):

- A Scout will pick up a Rifle, Blade or Boltgun, and transition into Devastator, Assault or Tactical Squad as befits their inclination, and from there, Veteran. The predilection for certain weapons over others, explains why many Chapters have an abundance of Assault Marines or Devastators, as compared to Tactical Marines (e.g; White Scars, Blood Angels). However, since the Boltgun is the most well-rounded weapon, that is why there is mostly Tactical Marines in a "normal" Company or Chapter.

- A Scout will transition into a Tactical Marine, and over time become Veteran, or, due to inclination, join the Assault or Devastator units, and become Veteran at one of those roles, instead. As training is front-loaded to Tactical Marines, this explains why there are far more Tactical Marines in any given Chapter, as only the experienced warriors ever really gain enough experience in battle to become fully fledged Assault Marines (Jump Pack-and-Chainsword, as opposed to Guy-With-Knife), or to gain mastery in several Heavy weapons; Hence why there simply Just Are less Devastators and Assault Marines. Most (?) Marines simply die before they get to be specialists.

- A Scout will become a Devastator, then an Assault Marine, then a Tactical Marine. Only Tactical Marines transition to Veterans...Where...Umm...Something, something...Vanguard Veterans? How does a Veteran Sergeant that rides a Bike, work? Since Tactical Marines are the most experienced Marines out of everyone, with several centuries of combat experience...Umm...There's just lots of Tactical Marines because Chapter Organisation says there has to be.

One of these things is bafflingly stupid, written by a not-very-good author, and forgotten. Despite all three technically being canon...One of them is simply stupid and not worth mentioning.

An extremely well-regarded author writes a Novel, that is well written, and receives high praise. Particularly noteworthy is a subject that was brought up and is now canon. Everyone likes this.
An author nobody knows writes a terrible Novel, that is awful, and is largely forgotten as a straight-to-pdf trash fire. It directly contradicts the well-written novel that everyone likes. Nobody likes this.

----------


## Callos_DeTerran

> Of the top of my head, there aren't many stories of Chaos Knights. They're still a relatively new thing in the rules, and Knights haven't had many novels written about them in general.
> 
> I think the best place to look would be the Horus Heresy novels, particularly _Titandeath_. A lot of the other books have bits and pieces from the perspective of the Chaos Knights and Titans, but that one in particular is all about the conflict and might give you some ideas.
> 
> As for making up your own story, there are virtually no limits. Although some people might complain a little if your story contradicts a significant part of the lore - if your House got famous by stomping Roboute Guilleman to death, for example, that might be a bit out there as in the 'real' story he's still alive - BUT having said that.... Who cares what they think? You can make whatever story you like and they can't stop you, so long as you're having fun.
> 
> Most people, I think, start with a name. They make up a name that they sounds cool, and build on it from there. Anything that happens after that is probably fair game for a story.


That's what I've suspected unfortunately, information on Chaos Knights seems threadbare at the moment. Even looking up Chaos Knight Houses reveals only one or two that have information on them..the rest have a short blurb if anything. I guess I want to make sure my own story doesn't contradict existing lore plus is attached to a viable-ish army so I don't stop having fun getting rofl-stomped. Though I guess that's less of a problem if I'm doing knights, lol. In any case, I basically had two ideas.

The first is a lance from House Herpetrax that prized the arts as key to honor and service. Its not enough to win, you had to win well. You had to have style, it had to be _perfect_ as could be. Obviously the family has pretty deep ties to Slaanesh as their patron of the Ruinous Powers. Rather than going whole in on the sado-masochism route, wanting to channel more of the Enrapturess mini vibe and Noise Marines. Sonic weaponry that belts out bombastic orchestral melodies that destroy those who dare stand in their way. Very clean and well maintained, with the head of the lance (probably a Tyrant or the Abominant-class thats good at leading wardogs) being called Conductor or Conductrix to make it sound more Warhammer-y while the war-dogs are named after parts of a choir, segments of an orchestra, and so on. Elegant, eerie, and destructive machines that are preceded by arias from throats tearing themselves apart to make and ending their conquests with a chorus of screaming imperial citizens mixed with 'instrumentals' of buildings being shook apart precisely chosen orchestral melodies. Don't have a name in mind for this sub-house though, but the idea is one big knight (the one obviously in charge) with a pack of hunting hounds to play around them. The bondsmen don't matter, they're just instruments to be replaced, just _Conductrix_.

The other is for a House Korvus off-shoot. One that when Bel'akor launched his campaign against Kolossi was part of the group of Knights that were corrupted by their Throne Mechanicums when they went to the defense of the planet. As some of the first to fall under the Dark Master's sway, they gained 'honor' in how many of their fellows they put to volkite but more importantly they became tainted by Bel'akor's power by succumbing to his direct influence and 'willingly' surrendering themselves further. Now Bel'akor's Flock have been thoroughly experimented on by the Dark Mechanicum and the Warp entities prowling Kolossi's shadow drenched service. _Whatever_ is inside the cockpits isn't human anymore and are considered dangerous enough that they are chained inside of their knights, followed everywhere by pterrorshades and curious biomechanical creatures on foot that pick off the survivors of the Knights' rampages. Probably has more of the Abhorrent-class knights with some wardogs, but very focused on using the Dread mechanic cause it feels so flavorful and cool...I have no idea if its _effective_ but I suppose people will tell me that. Now Bel'akor's Flock are sent to isolated worlds that don't require the full attention of House Korvus or the Dark Master, trusted to crush the populace under heel with the sheer weight of fear and literal darkness that follows them. Lately they've actually been drifting from Bel'akor's control to that of the Black Legion, but the reason why is less certain. Probably going to have each of the wardogs with a bird skull head, to convey the flock theme better but the centerpiece would probably be an Abominant because such a deranged machine so drenched in the Warp and psyker power would explain the darkness that follows the Flock in my mind but also because psyker powers seem fun.

How's those sound? Cause from those I'm tryng to determine the actual lists, but also what colors to go for them. Very muted if its the Flock, very grungy and worn with pterrorshades and some 3D printed beasties prowling the bases, but if going the way of the Herpetrax sub-house, going very over the top in opulence. Like a brass underskeleton with tasteful verdigris, white carapaces with purple coloring, gold/brass trim, and of course some sound marine looking bits.

----------


## Wraith

The idea of a Knight House being an "orchestra" and each machine being an "instrument" is an inspired idea. Not just because it's very appropriately Slaanesh-y, but also because it... kind of works? 

The Knights' foot-treads as they walk is a drum beat, the chatter of their weapons is like a snare, they all loose their war-horns like some kind of cacophonic, demented choir.... You could go into an incredible amount of detail here, styling each Knight after a different type of orchestra section, or singer (Baritone, soprano, etc) if you wanted to. Absolutely a suitable 40k theme and mechanic.

Colours for them would be interesting. Shlaanesh doesn't have a 'uniform' like the other Powers, which makes their individuality their 'uniform' of a sort. Bright, garish, mottled; all good Slaaneshi words.

Or, as is popular with some players who make use of Noise Marines, you could pick a theme and run with it....

There's a lot in the second idea that works too, especially in the idea that Knights are kind of "alive", not to mention feral. In particular, that the have to be chained down outside of battle - that's something that has been mentioned in past edition of 40k, particularly in reference to Dreadnoughts and Hellbrutes, but there's absolutely no reason why it couldn't also happen to other machines.

As for colours, I think I agree with dark shades. It immediately put me in mind of ravens and crows - I'm not terribly familiar with the Knights' kits, but if I were to go that way I think I'd try to find a beak-like face that they could all wear over their heads, and give them the appearance of some kind of raptor or carrion bird. Or maybe a bunch of banners and flags hanging from their weapons to give the implication of feathered 'wings'.

----------


## 9mm

dumb question, but is there any information on Space Marine scout helmets or do they always go with their hair in the wind?

----------


## Saambell

> dumb question, but is there any information on Space Marine scout helmets or do they always go with their hair in the wind?


If only going by the models, there are no supplied helmets, at most a cool visor or two. I will admit I have not read enough marine books to know if Black Library has written enough about scouts to see if they ever mention helmets being worn. Technically Scouts only wear Carapace armour, or an equivalent, which, depending on how heavy their skull reinforcements are by that point, may be worse then their own heads. Though, canon wise, Flak Armour is better then any possible bulletproof vest of the modern day, able to turn most melee weapons and most human made slug thrower rounds not intended to be carried by Marines/non baseline humans, which I can believe being the general range of how tough marine heads are aiming to be. When your skull stops bullets better then a Kevlar vest, a helmet can lean to overkill. Especially if the job is observation and recon. Confining your field of view when your job is to see as much as possible before the main force arrives can preclude wearing a helmet that can infringe on your field of vision.  

But I might be talking out of my butt, and there's some pile of sources out there that lists numerous times scouts have worn helmets. But just going by what they provide for models, helmets seem optional for scouts. But if this is a question for if to put some helmets on scouts of your own, I say go for it. Personally, I would use some spare Reiver helmets or other smaller lighter helmets for scouts, or even use some Reivers as a base model for some cool custom scouts. Just cause the poster scouts run around helmet less, doesn't mean a chapter that has had troubles with scout survivability rates wouldn't go "huh, maybe if they stopped getting shot in the head we might have more of them" and then issue some helmets to the new kids.

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## Blackhawk748

> dumb question, but is there any information on Space Marine scout helmets or do they always go with their hair in the wind?


I would imagine they just wear a carapace helmet, if only for mounting visors and stuff on it.

As for why the models are the way they are, I always just joke that everyone has Show Helmet toggled off

----------


## Cheesegear

> dumb question, but is there any information on Space Marine scout helmets or do they always go with their hair in the wind?


_Rites of Battle_ says that Scout Armour doesn't include a helmet. It doesn't address it.

That's always felt really stupid to me, and I've had Scouts in my army every edition until 9th when they were nerfed into the ground.

It doesn't make sense for them to _not_ wear helmets; I like the Scions' ones, and the hooded Skitarii helmets. I might have looked into the Necromunda models for conversion ideas...But since Scouts are garbage now I don't really see the point.

----------


## Wraith

Speaking of carapace armour, Kill Team: Into the Dark has been revealed; Imperial Navy Breachers vs Kroot.

I think this might be the first ever depiction of the Imperial Navy as miniatures, discounting ships from Battlefleet Gothic, and I have to say I like them a lot. I love how they're kind-of similar to Militarum Tempestus but the design of the... short-coat? Makes them unique. Like the crab from the Idoneth Deepkin Underworlds warband, I predict that the little Johnny-5 robot is going to be incredibly popular, if only among hobbyists rather than players.

The Kroot are pretty good too - some nice little touches that show just enough Tau-inspired technology, but for the most part just their own stuff - but not much more to say. They look like Kroot; if you wanted a bright new take on them then you'll be disappointed, but if you wanted more of the same, just newer, then its good news for you.

Still says a lot about Kill Team in that my only reaction to these models is "What else can i do with them apart from play Kill Team?", unfortunately.

----------


## LeSwordfish

I might get it for the terrain. Looks like a few sets of that could build a pretty decent Zone Mortalis board for heresy.

----------


## Eldan

I mean, the robot is neat and all, but it also looks extremely kitbashable. I'm pretty sure with some digging in my bitsbox, I could make one. Could certainly make like five with the store bitsbox.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> Speaking of carapace armour, Kill Team: Into the Dark has been revealed; Imperial Navy Breachers vs Kroot.
> 
> I think this might be the first ever depiction of the Imperial Navy as miniatures, discounting ships from Battlefleet Gothic, and I have to say I like them a lot. I love how they're kind-of similar to Militarum Tempestus but the design of the... short-coat? Makes them unique. Like the crab from the Idoneth Deepkin Underworlds warband, I predict that the little Johnny-5 robot is going to be incredibly popular, if only among hobbyists rather than players.
> 
> The Kroot are pretty good too - some nice little touches that show just enough Tau-inspired technology, but for the most part just their own stuff - but not much more to say. They look like Kroot; if you wanted a bright new take on them then you'll be disappointed, but if you wanted more of the same, just newer, then its good news for you.
> 
> Still says a lot about Kill Team in that my only reaction to these models is "What else can i do with them apart from play Kill Team?", unfortunately.


The Navy Breacher Team does look like the logical extension of the rest of the armor and weapons we've seen of the Imperium. Granted its not how I've ever imagined them, but its consistent with the current design of Guardsmen and Scions, so that's fine. I also like that everything looks at least vac resistant, if not fully sealed. SO that's good.

The Kroot look nice. Honestly never thought anything was wrong with them, but I like that they have a bit more personality to their kit now. Also that new Kroot hound looks nice.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> I might get it for the terrain. Looks like a few sets of that could build a pretty decent Zone Mortalis board for heresy.


Almost certainly less expensive for the same terrain effect.

----------


## Cheesegear

I contrast the Navy Breachers and the Kroot against...The Space Wolves upgrade kit for 30K where the modelers didn't even try. I...Like (?)...That the 30K community is not very tolerant of garbage. Then again I'm also very aware that Space Wolves have been getting shafted ever since Thunderwolf Cavalry were invented. _Prospero Burns_ knocked it out of the park; "All of _that_? ...That's stupid. Stop it." and now we're back to wolf-headed helmets that make no sense - at least wolf _skull_ helmets have the decency to be curved.

Speaking of garbage; I'm very excited to see the awful justification for why that Kroot's Harpoon Gun (?) has a bowstave.

ION:

This came up in the D&D threads, and I thought if anyone knows, this thread probably should, and I'm annoyed at myself why I didn't ask here, first;

How is everyone transporting their biggest models? Like Knights and Be'lakor, Alarielle, etc.?

----------


## hamishspence

> I contrast the Navy Breachers and the Kroot against...The Space Wolves upgrade kit for 30K where the modelers didn't even try.


IMO the helmet, being_ pointy_ (but with a _muzzle_ rather than a beak) looks more Corvus-ish, than many of the _other_ Chapter Specific Mk VI Helmets do (Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists, Sons of Horus, Dark Angels).

None of them looked much like the basic Mark VI helm - they looked more like the older helms - Mark II, III, or IV.

The Imperial Fists and Dark Angels ones are most evocative of the Mark III helm carried by the classic Master of the Arsenal.

The Sons of Horus and Iron Warriors ones seem to me to be most evocative of the Mark II and the Mark IV - very "_flat_-faced"

----------


## LeSwordfish

> How is everyone transporting their biggest models? Like Knights and Be'lakor, Alarielle, etc.?


The Really Useful Box method - magnets in the base, sheet of ferromagnetic material glued to the bottom of a large plastic box, and then carry the box around. Works fine so long as you don't wallop the box so hard the magnets break - I've got all my Soulblight monsters set up like this and can flip the box upside down happily enough without anything falling off. If you have a car it'd be even better, but I'm now much happier carrying them on the tube, and its more efficient storage than the massive foam cases they'd need otherwise.

----------


## Grim Portent

I've traditionally put my big models, Bloodthirsters, Knights, Magnus and so on, in a box (about shoebox size, sometimes an actual shoebox) with bubblewrap, and fit other smaller models, terminators and other things that couldn't fit into my small infantry case, into the space around them with more bubblewrap padding. Never had any real problems with the method, though packing/unpacking things to set up or at the end of a game was a bit of a pain. Saved on space compared to the foam trays used by the guys at my local, which was important because I needed to rely on public transport to get to and from games a lot of the time.

IIRC I was able to fit two knights to a box pretty easily, and I could fit one of those boxes in a backpack (a good backpack mind you) with my rulebooks. More detailed models like bloodthirsters and Magnus were generally one to a box, but would still have things like terminators packed around them.


For D&D minis, I think it is going to be a matter of finding a box of roughly the right dimensions and just bubblewrapping the big ones to keep them safe. I'm not sure of the exact size of the larger minis made for D&D, but I've got a D&D dragon that takes up about the same amount of space as a bloodthirster (same width, longer but less tall,) and it fits into a modestly sized box just fine. Bonus for the surprise note in the D&D thread is that a couple of layers of bubblewrap makes something borderline unrecognisable even in a clear box.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> This came up in the D&D threads, and I thought if anyone knows, this thread probably should, and I'm annoyed at myself why I didn't ask here, first;
> 
> How is everyone transporting their biggest models? Like Knights and Be'lakor, Alarielle, etc.?


I put them in a tray that I carry on top of my box.

----------


## Eldan

Several of my biggest models are at the store on a shelf.

----------


## 9mm

> How is everyone transporting their biggest models? Like Knights and Be'lakor, Alarielle, etc.?


I'm very invested into the Battlefoam system at this point. My 40k stuff is in pluck foam while AoS is on Magna racks. I transport ALL of my knights in a 1560, though my system is probably overkill for most people.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Battlefoam.  I have a PACK Max for my Baneblades; carries all six of them with room to spare.

----------


## Avaris

> IMO the helmet, being_ pointy_ (but with a _muzzle_ rather than a beak) looks more Corvus-ish, than many of the _other_ Chapter Specific Mk VI Helmets do (Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists, Sons of Horus, Dark Angels).
> 
> None of them looked much like the basic Mark VI helm - they looked more like the older helms - Mark II, III, or IV.
> 
> The Imperial Fists and Dark Angels ones are most evocative of the Mark III helm carried by the classic Master of the Arsenal.
> 
> The Sons of Horus and Iron Warriors ones seem to me to be most evocative of the Mark II and the Mark IV - very "_flat_-faced"


The big problem with the SW helmets IMO, compared with the others, is that theyre basically all the same. There are a few different details, e.g. one with a gem in the forehead, but they are the same silhouette. The other legions have four different designs, with 3 each of 3 of them and 1 leader one. Having a wolf helm as one of 4 options would have been good, but being the only option feels bad, particularly as some SW players dont like that aesthetic (even though it has been around since Space Wolves were first a thing in 40k). (Edit: I think? Im sure I remember a 2nd ed SW with wolf helmet that wasnt Ulrik, but cant find it atm)

Edit 2: ah, here we go. Space Wolf Captain from the late 80s/early 90s. Literally one of the first Space Wolf models ever made had a Wolf Helm like this! http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a...manders-01.htm

----------


## hamishspence

> (Edit: I think? Im sure I remember a 2nd ed SW with wolf helmet that wasnt Ulrik, but cant find it atm)


It was around all the way back in 1e:

*Spoiler*
Show







> The big problem with the SW helmets IMO, compared with the others, is that theyre basically all the same. There are a few different details, e.g. one with a gem in the forehead, but they are the same silhouette. The other legions have four different designs, with 3 each of 3 of them and 1 leader one.



I'd agree that the style variation in "ordinary Wolf" helmets is pretty low (2 variants instead of 3). That of the White Scars is in some ways even worse though:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...upgrade-packs/

if you take into account the parts of the differences that are paintjob, the only _physical_ differences within the 9 "ordinary White Scar" helmets are in the topknot - and the topknots on the far left and far right are near-identical, with only the subtlest difference in the point where the topknot joins the helmet.

Imperial Fists aren't much better - the "helmet air-holes" are placed differently, but the rest of the helmet is completely identical for the 9 "ordinary" guys.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...and-pauldrons/

----------


## Cheesegear

> The Really Useful Box method - magnets in the base, sheet of ferromagnetic material glued to the bottom of a large plastic box, and then carry the box around.


Today I went the other way. I use my magnets for...Important stuff.

Instead, I went down to my local dollar-crafts store and they were selling magnetic sheets for dirt cheap. Picked up a couple of those and put paperclips on the bases of my models. Then I can cover the paperclips with texture paint and it wont look any different to normal.




> The big problem with the SW helmets IMO, compared with the others, is that theyre basically all the same. There are a few different details, e.g. one with a gem in the forehead, but they are the same silhouette. The other legions have four different designs, with 3 each of 3 of them and 1 leader one. Having a wolf helm as one of 4 options would have been good


The Space Wolf Grey Hunters kit nails it when it comes to helmets. Most of the bare heads look alright. The helmets are helmets, and there's only one wolf-helm that looks stupid that nobody uses. I remember back in the day people would use that wolf helm to denote that that model was the one with the Mark of the Wulfen. But now that I - and my friends - are all older and better at hobby, there are so many better ways to depict the Mark if you really wanted to (because it's not a thing anymore).

----------


## Avaris

> It was around all the way back in 1e:
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True!

I suppose the idea is to scatter these helmets around an army, rather than have a squad entirely with special helmets, which would make the similarities matter less. Stick the sergeant helm on a praetor. But wolf helms on random dudes stands out more!

----------


## hamishspence

> True!
> 
> I suppose the idea is to scatter these helmets around an army, rather than have a squad entirely with special helmets, which would make the similarities matter less.


I'd agree that the helmets are detailed enough and different enough from the basic ones, that they'd make better "squad leader" helmets (or "veteran squad" helmets) than having the whole army have them.

Same applies to the Imperial Fists ones. Laurel wreath _and_ "knight-style helmet with airholes" - that's the sort of thing you'd see on an Emperor's Champion, not on a regular guy.




> Stick the sergeant helm on a praetor.


The Imperial Fists article did say that the transverse crest helmet is for Sergeants _or Praetors_ - same would apply to the wolf helmet with topknot.

----------


## Cheesegear

> if you take into account the parts of the differences that are paintjob, the only _physical_ differences within the 9 "ordinary White Scar" helmets are in the topknot - and the topknots on the far left and far right are near-identical, with only the subtlest difference in the point where the topknot joins the helmet.
> 
> Imperial Fists aren't much better - the "helmet air-holes" are placed differently, but the rest of the helmet is completely identical for the 9 "ordinary" guys.


The issue isn't that there isn't enough variety in the Space Wolf helmets.

The issue is that they're _bad_.

Neither the White Scars nor the Imperial Fists have 'variety', but that doesn't matter because they look _good_ (or at the very least, fine). Even if I don't agree that Imperial Fists walk around with Dark Angel-like helmets-with-wreaths-on, I'm still more than happy to put a 'Champion' helmet on a Sergeant, even if the one with the crest, is the only one 'designed' for it.

The Wolf helmets? Not only are they not the Space Wolves' aesthetic - especially since Space Wolf players swear by _Prospero Burns_ - they don't even work well for Sergeants or individual characters. They are the joke answer you give, when someone asks you to design a helmet for Space Wolves.

What helmet works well with Space Wolves?

'A wolf helmet.'

Hahahahahaha. Can you imagine? No seriously. We haven't done dumb **** like that since 5th Ed. Remember when we turned Space Wolves into a literal joke? Let's not do that again. Especially not with 30K players - they'll destroy us.

'Maybe like a half-helmet. Like the leather ones that already exist on the Grey Slayers. You could have like a helmet that protects their brain case, but you would leave their mouths and nose open, because Space Wolves' actually believe that their own senses are better that computer sensors. Also, if we leave their chins bare we can do beards.'

...Hahahahaha. Sculpting beards sounds like a lot of work. Go back to the wolf helmet and let's **** this out in a weekend.

----------


## hamishspence

> The Wolf helmets? Not only are they not the Space Wolves' aesthetic - especially since Space Wolf players swear by _Prospero Burns_ - they don't even work well for Sergeants or individual characters.


Some people like _Prospero Burns._ 

Others think that this was Abnett being pretentious and that _"They're not "The Space Wolves", they're "The Rout" really"_ is silly.

It would appear that the writers of _HH7: Inferno_, fell into the second category.




> Page 71:
> 
> But of all the accusations, perhaps the most cutting was that the VIth Legion was never keener to the fight as when an enemy had already broke and fled before it - than when its victims were helpless. 
> 
> With this came an informal and insulting cognomen for the VIth Legion of the "Rout", a collective noun often used for carrion jackals and the mutated pariah dogs of Terra's dry seas that hounded and preyed upon refugee columns and wastelanders - creatures brave only when their victims were half-dead or exhausted.
> 
> 
> 
> page 79: 
> ...


 
Seems to me like an active effort to retcon _Prospero Burns_ - suggest that everything being told to Kaspar Hawser about "The Rout" is _mockery_, and that they go by "The Wolves that Stalk The Stars" (or "Space Wolves" _for short_).

----------


## Cheesegear

> Some people like _Prospero Burns._


The thing about _Prospero Burns_ is that it tries to make clear that the Space Wolves don't have a wolf fetish. Trying to distance the Space Wolves from the 'Wolf Wolfborn' meme, and how many Wolf Points your Space Wolves army has.

----------


## hamishspence

> The thing about _Prospero Burns_ is that it tries to make clear that the Space Wolves don't have a wolf fetish.


When I look at the Grey Slayers _masks:_

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-WW/S...de-Pack-1-2018

I'd say they look far more "fetish" than the Mark VI ones.

The point of this "Helmet" series is _Corvus helmets_, and what kind of "spin" each Legion might put on them.




> 'Maybe like a half-helmet. Like the leather ones that already exist on the Grey Slayers. You could have like a helmet that protects their brain case, but you would leave their mouths and nose open, because Space Wolves' actually believe that their own senses are better that computer sensors. Also, if we leave their chins bare we can do beards.'


Space Marines_ frequently_ have to work _in vacuum_ or in _hazardous gas_ environments. Half-helmets exposing the chin just do not work in this context.

----------


## Cheesegear

> Space Marines_ frequently_ have to work _in vacuum_ or in _hazardous gas_ environments. Half-helmets exposing the chin just do not work in this context.


Space Marines can breathe in a vacuum and in toxic environments. That's literally what the third lung is for.

Garro and Sigismund fight on the moon.

Furthermore; As opposed to _completely_ bare heads like every set already has?  :Small Sigh:

----------


## hamishspence

> As opposed to _completely_ bare heads like every set already has?


_One_ bare head_ option_ - for the squad leader/army leader.





> Space Marines can breathe in a vacuum and in toxic environments. That's literally what the third lung is for.



Vacuum is _bad for_ a space marine. Yes, they can operate in it for a short time, but "fully enclosed" armour exists for a _reason._ 

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour

_ It was the first fully enclosed power armour, with life-sustaining capabilities[1], making it suitable for combat on toxic alien planets and the depths of space.[8]_





> "Sculpting beards sounds like a lot of work. Go back to the wolf helmet and let's ____ this out in a weekend."


There_ are_ things to criticise about the_ laziness_ of the job done on this particular set, but "fully enclosed helmets" isn't one of them, and even "going back to the wolf helmet" isn't _inherently_ wrong.

I'd say that what they _should_ have done was "more _difference_ for the leader than just topknot and gem" and _"three_ types of "ordinary guy" helmet, not two, which are _more different than_ just one gem".



But, for me, what they did with the White Scars set was_ lazier._ More effort put in on the squad leader, but _less_ effort put in on the 9 ordinary guys.

----------


## Cheesegear

> "going back to the wolf helmet" isn't _inherently_ wrong.


The ****tons of memes generated in just a few days, says you're wrong.




> I'd say that what they _should_ have done was "more _difference_ for the leader than just topknot and gem" and _"three_ types of "ordinary guy" helmet, not two, which are _more different than_ just one gem".


I don't care about _variance_ in _helmets_. There are so many ways to make squad leaders stand out that the helmet's _physicality_ doesn't even make the Top 5.




> More effort put in on the squad leader, but _less_ effort put in on the 9 ordinary guys.


I don't care about helmet variance. I've been painting Marines for as long as I can remember. I have a full Company of Firstborn. 30/40K is a squad-based game. Making sure that each of your 50-100 guys is 'individual' and 'unique' just doesn't matter* (and I've come in Top 3 best painted at almost every tournament I've ever been to). When you're looking at ~60 guys on the table, are you honestly looking to make sure that each of them has an individual head?

*I was told that when I pointed out to the judges that every single one of my Deathwatch Marines had a different Chapter badge. The tournament judges said that they didn't even notice because they only look at the army as a whole, and at character models - and display boards. They judged my Guilliman and Telion more than all my Chapter badges combined.

I'm not a YouTuber where I convert and paint a single model for a single video that can last as passive income in perpetuity, and never look back. I did my one Wolf Model and that's all that matters. Having a Wolf Helm is _fine_ because it's not next to more Wolf Helms. The Wolf Helm is standing next the Imperial Fist with the laurels and they look perfectly different enough when I line up my one dude from each Legion.

IMO. The White Scars' helmets are _perfect_, because they're for line troopers. They're not supposed to be individual or unique. And if you are looking for uniqueness in White Scars, you do exactly what they did; You paint the red lightning.

The Imperial Fists' and Dark Angels' helmets look great...But I don't really want to put them on line troopers. It looks odd. The Wolves' helmets...Are memes. Space Wolves are a meme again - and not the good kind. If you're a hobbyist, who wants to paint 10 guys, put them on your shelf, take a photo for the internet and never touch them again...Then you should also be furious with the Wolf Helmets, but for a different reason. 'Cause they look like arse.

----------


## hamishspence

> IMO. The White Scars' helmets are _perfect_, because they're for line troopers. They're not supposed to be individual or unique. And if you are looking for uniqueness in White Scars, you do exactly what they did; You paint the red lightning.
> 
> The Imperial Fists' and Dark Angels' helmets look great...But I don't really want to put them on line troopers. It looks odd.


The way I see it - the packs should do the_ same job_ for _all_ legions. Not "Line troopers for the White Scars, Veterans for _everyone else._"

----------


## Cheesegear

> The way I see it - the packs should do the_ same job_ for _all_ legions. Not "Line troopers for the White Scars, Veterans for _everyone else._"


In which case you want 9 generic heads and one leader head. And only the leader head matters.

In which case the White Scars are perfect, and it's everyone else who sucks? I can agree to that. But I don't quite think that's what you're going for.

----------


## hamishspence

> In which case you want 9 generic heads and one leader head. And only the leader head matters.
> 
> In which case the White Scars are perfect, and it's everyone else who sucks? I can agree to that. But I don't quite think that's what you're going for.





> When you're looking at ~60 guys on the table, are you honestly looking to make sure that each of them has an individual head?


The heads don't need to be _perfectly_ individual (that's why it's 3 sets of 3 identical heads in each pack)

But there does need to be _consistency_ in the amount of_ choice available._

Based on all the packs released _prior to_ the White Scars, the idea _seemed to be_ "these are a bit more ornate than regular mark VI helmets" - the sort of thing you would put on a Sergeant or in a veteran squad.

IMO the White Scars helmets _should_ have been _more like_ the Emperor's Children helmets in that respect. Different "airhole" variants. Different decorations on the _top_ of the helmet.

Imperial Fists, Dark Angels, Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, Iron Warriors - all followed the formula, to the letter.

It was only the White Scars and the Space Wolves that broke it - by vastly reducing the amount which the 3 helmet variants differed from each other (White Scars) and reducing it to only _two_ variants (Space Wolves).

----------


## Cheesegear

> But there does need to be _consistency_ in the amount of_ choice available._


Not really.

You could give me say, _five_ Sergeant heads. All identical.
You say 'These are Sergeant heads. If you have five squads in your army, this is probably how many you'll need.', the helmet's physicality is irrelevant because the real hobby work is done during paint step and with wargear.

You then build all the rest of the Marines, as normal. Because line troopers aren't special and why would you individualise them?
(By which I mean spend time, money and effort on models that ultimately don't matter)

Oh wait that's how you 3D print. 3D printer go brrr.

Oh.

There it is. I've found the thing that's been bugging me. That's what's rubbing me the wrong way about 'upgrade packs' in 2022.

These are the sort of thing you could be 3D printing on your own; If you want 50 heads...Here's 50 heads.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

Am I the only person who actually likes those wolf helmets?

----------


## hamishspence

> Am I the only person who actually likes those wolf helmets?


There's quite a few people on Bolter and Chainsword who seem to like them.

My main criticism of them_ isn't_ that they _exist_, or of the design (though the eyes, IMO, are a bit far apart compared to all the other helmets so far) it's that they only did two types for "ordinary guys" instead of 3 (and one Sergeant/Praetor version) - and that the _sole_ difference between the two types, is a forehead gem.

"7 type A, 2 type B", for me, when every other pack has been "3 type A, 3 type B, 3 type C", just feels a little lazy.

But I direct the same accusation at the White Scars pack, which seems to me like 

"3 type A, 3 type A with slightly different topknot, 3 type A with _even less_ different topknot".

----------


## Cheesegear

> Am I the only person who actually likes those wolf helmets?


Judging from the response online,
and my own anecdotal evidence at my local gaming store...

You're in the minority, at least.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> I'd say they look far more "fetish" than the Mark VI ones.


The masks seem to be modeled after Spectacle Helms that are often found in the Nordic countries. 

*Spoiler: The Helm*
Show






And those do cover a fairly large amount of the face. And I too agree that the SM need to distance themselves from the Wolfy Wolferson riding his Wolf Wagon on Wolf Night to Wolf at the Wolf Bar with Wolf Wolfertonian meme because, frankly, it was stupid beyond measure. USE OTHER NAMES FOR WOLF GW.

----------


## Cheesegear

> USE OTHER NAMES FOR WOLF GW.


No don't. That's how you get Wolf Wolfborn by a different name - they got to use _Canis_ exactly once, and they blew it.

Bjorn the Fell-Handed, means *Bear*, FFS.
Murderfang isn't wolves...It is edgy, though.

Other Wolf Lords include Krakens and Dragons in their name. There are clearly other animals on Fenris.

Logan Grimnar...No wolves...Oh wait he got turned into a meme _because_ they gave him wolves.

...Can you actually imagine if GW said that the Raven Guard ride Giant Ravens into battle? Because their spirit animal is ravens?

----------


## hamishspence

It wasn't till Horus Heresy, that we got the "Raven Guard have great big _wings_ on their _jump packs_" thing.

Though to be fair, the designers may have been copying the Sanguinary Guard.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> No don't. That's how you get Wolf Wolfborn by a different name - they got to use _Canis_ exactly once, and they blew it.


...right. I had repressed that. And of course, they need more Northmen names and things, because that's what the Space Wolves are. Northmen who like wolves. They also like big scary things that kill stuff.

Just, god why are they such a meme?




> It wasn't till Horus Heresy, that we got the "Raven Guard have great big _wings_ on their _jump packs_" thing.
> 
> Though to be fair, the designers may have been copying the Sanguinary Guard.


Wings on Jump Packs don't feel all that silly, largely because I could actually see them being used for stabilizers. So those are a bit easier to live with.

----------


## hamishspence

The one Heresy-era Blood Angel squad with jump packs done by Forgeworld (with Blood Angels having _started_ the winged jump pack trend)_ doesn't_ have them.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-WW/B...er-Cohort-2019

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## Cheesegear

> Just, god why are they such a meme?


Like most things; You can trace it to 5th Ed. Which, surprisingly, was one of the dumb things that happened in 5th Ed. that wasn't Matt Ward's fault.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> The one Heresy-era Blood Angel squad with jump packs done by Forgeworld (with Blood Angels having _started_ the winged jump pack trend)_ doesn't_ have them.
> 
> https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-WW/B...er-Cohort-2019


Weird. They look great though.




> Like most things; You can trace it to 5th Ed. Which, surprisingly, was one of the dumb things that happened in 5th Ed. that wasn't Matt Ward's fault.


Oh I know it was 5th ed. And I believe it was Phil Kelly's fault, which is weird cuz they dude hadn't done that before. He wrote Orks and Eldar before that and neither one was a freaking meme.

----------


## hamishspence

> Oh I know it was 5th ed. And I believe it was Phil Kelly's fault, which is weird cuz they dude hadn't done that before. He wrote Orks and Eldar before that and neither one was a freaking meme.


They weren't much better in 3e - there was a strong "rename everything Just Because" trend, as well as giving them tons of wolfy wargear rules.

Instead of "Iron Halo" - "Belt of Russ".
Instead of "Reductor" - "Fang of Morkai"
Instead of "Rosarius" - "Iron Wolf amulet"
Instead of "Sacred Standard" - "Wolf Totem"
Instead of "Holy relic" - "Wolf Helm of Russ".

"Wolf Pelt", "Wolf tail Talismans", "Wolf Tooth Necklace" - all these had special rules.

And all this was long before 5e.

----------


## Cheesegear

> And all this was long before 5e.


Of course, before 5th Ed. is:
a) Before 40K was really popular, and
b) Before the internet was really even a real thing.

5th Ed. was Thunderwolf Cavalry memes. Wolf Wolfborn started the memes. Wolves on wolves wearing wolves, named Wolf, was the meme.

Before that, Space Wolves had Wulfen out of the Eye of Terror, and that was _cool_, and not a meme. We made fun of things in 4th Ed. I remember it. Space Wolves weren't one of the things we made of.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> They weren't much better in 3e - there was a strong "rename everything Just Because" trend, as well as giving them tons of wolfy wargear rules.
> 
> Instead of "Iron Halo" - "Belt of Russ".
> Instead of "Reductor" - "Fang of Morkai"
> Instead of "Rosarius" - "Iron Wolf amulet"
> Instead of "Sacred Standard" - "Wolf Totem"
> Instead of "Holy relic" - "Wolf Helm of Russ".
> 
> "Wolf Pelt", "Wolf tail Talismans", "Wolf Tooth Necklace" - all these had special rules.
> ...


Renaming basic equipment makes them "Special" not a meme. Like, I can see that it started before 5th, but that's not the ridiculous meme they turned into, that's them being "Special"

----------


## hamishspence

> Of course, before 5th Ed. is:
> a) Before 40K was really popular, and
> b) Before the internet was really even a real thing.


I was seeing army-building guides, and sites dedicated to 40K homebrew rules and fanfiction, back in the late 90s.

----------


## Cheesegear

> I was seeing army-building guides, and sites dedicated to 40K homebrew rules and fanfiction, back in the late 90s.


We all were. But you're talking pre- even MySpace days. I don't care about anything that happened before 5th Ed., because nothing before 5th Ed., matters.

----------


## Wraith

I'm late to this discussion, but I would like to add:

Space Marines can wear masks-without-helmets. In fact, some of them are encouraged to do so.

Additionally, their basic helmets come as two parts, with a third separate 'breather' section that fits underneath the armour itself. (2:40 ish in the video)

So there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't wear helmets-without-masks if they felt like it; what we think of as stupid is irrelevant to a Space Marine. They would even keep their adorable little pop-down eye lenses!  :Small Tongue:

----------


## LeSwordfish

In fairness, Garro was totally wearing a helmet for the Lord Of The Flies fight, even if it was leaking. I believe Know No Fear makes a big deal out of how Guilleman needs primarch-level toughness to survive helmetless in hard vaccum. Or maybe that's just how long he was out there for?

----------


## Wraith

> In fairness, Garro was totally wearing a helmet for the Lord Of The Flies fight, even if it was leaking. I believe Know No Fear makes a big deal out of how Guilleman needs primarch-level toughness to survive helmetless in hard vaccum. Or maybe that's just how long he was out there for?


I think the big deal was that Astartes can survive and kind-of operate in vacuum for ~30 minutes, or something like that? That's part of why Garro was struggling; it wasn't going to kill him right away but it was sapping his strength and making the fight way, way harder. Whereas Guilliman was out there, helmetless, in combat, for 3 hours or more and all he had to do was heal a few freeze-burns. He can absolutely stay out there for way longer under optimum circumstances.

----------


## Drasius

I'm just glad that the SW exist so all the *real* weirdos can be identified as soon as they unpack their army.

New Daemons though:




First save is for melee, second is for ranged and both are special Daemon Saves, which can't be modified, so, they're invulnerables that ignore "ignore invulnerable saves"

Str 5, T4, 2 attacks is a nice boost for bloodletters, and BS3 and a 3+ save against ranged is not too shabby for Pinkies. Will be interesting to see points though.

----------


## Grim Portent

Oh, neat, Bloodletters have their old S/T back.

----------


## Eldan

> No don't. That's how you get Wolf Wolfborn by a different name - they got to use _Canis_ exactly once, and they blew it.
> 
> Bjorn the Fell-Handed, means *Bear*, FFS.
> Murderfang isn't wolves...It is edgy, though.
> 
> Other Wolf Lords include Krakens and Dragons in their name. There are clearly other animals on Fenris.
> 
> Logan Grimnar...No wolves...Oh wait he got turned into a meme _because_ they gave him wolves.
> 
> ...Can you actually imagine if GW said that the Raven Guard ride Giant Ravens into battle? Because their spirit animal is ravens?


THIS. 

FFS, they are space norse, they should have a lot more naming diversity than just wolves. Björn is a good start. But they absolutely should have Krakens, Dragons, Serpents, possibly Ravens, though those are already taken, foxes, owls, whales... heck, I'd take squirrel over more wolves, there's mythological precedent for that.

----------


## LeSwordfish

I assume part of the issue is that the heresy-era wolves had so much broader and less risible visual influences than All Wolves All The Time that people who chose them for the leather viking aesthetic now feel a bit cheated by a return to 40k's pure dog vibes. Especially given that it's the only option.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

> We all were. But you're talking pre- even MySpace days. I don't care about anything that happened before 5th Ed., because nothing before 5th Ed., matters.


Nonsense. Before 5th edition is the only thing that matters.  :Small Tongue: 

5th edition is when I quit the game, and it was 2008, internet 40k stuff was totally around. There wasn't as much of it, sure. It's kinda ludicrous to say the internet didn't exist in 2008, though.

----------


## Cheesegear

> FFS, they are space norse, they should have a lot more naming diversity than just wolves. Björn is a good start. But they absolutely should have Krakens, Dragons, Serpents, possibly Ravens, though those are already taken, foxes, owls, whales... heck, I'd take squirrel over more wolves, there's mythological precedent for that.


Lexicanum has a great list of the fauna of Fenris; Notably Giants, Trolls, Krakens, Wyrms and Drakes...GIANTS. And TROLLS. WHAT!?

_'Most of the planet's wildlife lives in the oceans, most of which are vicious sea creatures.'_

Sure GW. Continue with the wolf fixation.  :Small Sigh: 

*Spoiler: 'Member this guy?*
Show




*Spoiler: This is Him, Now.*
Show




Feel old, yet? What happened to him? Where did all that wolf **** come from!?
I'll say it for the people playing at home; His name is Krom *Dragon*gaze.

*Spoiler: What a great model.*
Show

----------


## Grim Portent

I feel it worth mentioning that there are people who still remember the old pewter minis from the early days. Rogue Trader era design callbacks might not matter to a lot of people, but I have several people in my local club who have fond memories of models that are older than me, including the first wolf helmet, Calgar on his throne and the old genestealer cults car.

From their perspective the current Space Wolves are a bit too silly, mostly because of Grimar, but they are supposed to be something of a joke (several space marine factions are*) and the issue is that they make the same joke too many times.


*Looking at you Corvus Corax (literally the name for Common Raven,) which is the same naming convention used in Canis Wolfborn but with even less effort.





> *Spoiler: What a great model.*
> Show


And he's what, a sergeant? A captain? Just a random squad member with a power weapon?

Were it not for the fact that the primaris range doesn't have power weapon equivalents for basic troops I'd genuinely assume he was just a random dude with an axe if I saw him on the table. All the backpack frippery, cloaks and weird hats exist so that you can get a better idea for if a model is important** (as in not a generic guy with a fancy weapon) at a glance. Having regularly played with someone who couldn't move his own models after a certain point (wheelchair bound and with severely limited manual dexterity) being able to tell exactly who's who with minimal input is important.

Are wolf skull totems a bit of a silly way to do that, well yeah, but the space marines traditionally wear *flags* on their backpacks.


**And because sometimes the designers legit like the idea.

----------


## hamishspence

Or the Iron Hands, whose _initiation ceremony_ involves chopping off one of their hands and replacing it with a metal one.

----------


## Grim Portent

> Or the Iron Hands, whose _initiation ceremony_ involves chopping off one of their hands and replacing it with a metal one.


To be fair, if they weren't space marines that wouldn't be unreasonable. 40K bionics are usually better than human meat, it's just that space marine meat is already on par with most bionics.

The Salamanders have killing a legit dragon on a volcano as part of their initiation though, which is pretty damn insane.

----------


## Lord Torath

> The Salamanders have killing a legit dragon on a volcano as part of their initiation though, which is pretty damn insane.


Especially when you consider the aspirants are 8-10 years old.

----------


## Grim Portent

Indeed. Though it fits the Salamanders, given that their theme is ancient Greece + dragons. Feats of stupid heroism is their thing.



Warhammer Community has posted a photo of one of the new berzerkers that are coming out.

Honestly, it's kind of meh. Berzerkers have never been the most divergent looking of chaos marines, but I would have expected the first one they properly reveal to be a bit less vanilla. Pick one with a skull helmet or something. If anything it's less chaos influenced than the normal chaos marines, not a hint of organic growth anywhere I can see, so maybe that's going to be the vibe for new Khorne in general.

Also, I have never understood GWs obsession with plasma pistols. They are, and always have been, a garbage upgrade option for something like Berzerkers.

----------


## hamishspence

> And he's what, a sergeant? A captain? Just a random squad member with a power weapon?.


Primaris Lieutenant (every company has two - junior to the Captain but senior to everyone else).

Regarding chapter-specific Mark VI sets, World Eaters now have one:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...-horus-heresy/

Like the White Scars and Space Wolves ones, the _variance_ is low - in this case, it seems to be confined to "3 have forehead skulls, the other 6 have forehead studs"

The page _claims_ there are 5 helmet variants in that pack, not 4 (3 sets of 3, bare head, squad leader) - but the middle set look _identical_ to the right-hand set - the only difference being that they have a painted-on (or transfer) WE symbol. It definitely doesn't look _modelled on._

----------


## Grim Portent

I think the WE symbol is part of the helmet, it just looks flat because the one they copied and pasted for the package art turned out mediocre. Though given that it's FW I wouldn't be surprised if it's a detail so small and pointless that it barely shows up anyway.


I'm also a bit annoyed that these helmets all have the crests. That's supposed to be a veteran thing, not something sported by normal marines during the Heresy. Though I guess there's no good way to design a WE mk6 helmet without them, it's not like they can do the T-visor used by the mk3 crestless helmet.

EDIT: Thinking about it, they've made a weird choice with the marketing for these head packs. They've gone to the trouble of colouring them up, but then copy-pasting each variant with the same scheme rather than showing each variant in different colours, which makes them look less distinct even to a casual glance. Mix it up a bit, it catches the eye more, and it isn't like there aren't plenty of variant colour schemes to use.

----------


## hamishspence

> I'm also a bit annoyed that these helmets all have the crests. That's supposed to be a veteran thing, not something sported by normal marines during the Heresy. Though I guess there's no good way to design a WE mk6 helmet without them, it's not like they can do the T-visor used by the mk3 crestless helmet.


Apparently it's not about being _a veteran_, it's about being _unstable:_

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/World_Eaters




> _Caedere Remissum_
> 
> Before the Horus Heresy, many of the World Eaters had adopted the snarling Sarum Pattern Helmet, though by the time of the Heresy, many of the XIIth Legion's warriors had begun modifying these distinctive helms with the twin mantles of the_ caedere remissum_ -- a dubious honour dating back to the gladiatorial traditions of the Primarch Angron's homeworld.
> 
> When a warrior was judged too unstable or damaged to fight anything other than death matches, they would wear the bladed horns of the remissum as a warning to their foes.
> 
> While Angron himself forbade them amongst his Veteran companies, many World Eaters still risked his wrath and eventually the more stylised mantles became synonymous with the warriors of the Khornate Berserker cults after the Primarch's ascension to daemonhood.

----------


## Grim Portent

Strange, because FW labels the MKII/MKIII variant as veteran heads, and the two out of control units are styled with no helmet in the case of  Rampagers, or a helmet with no crests in the case of Red Butchers, so the Legion's culture was at odds with Angron there.

----------


## hamishspence

I do wonder how much of that is fanon.

From HH VI: Retribution (page 119):




> The helm's distinctive _'cadaere renissum'_ side panels are a throwback to the fighting pits in which the Primarch Angron once fought, signifying a warrior whose sanity had been burned away by lust for battle. Such warriors were regarded as blessed, for they were cleansed of all cares other than war.



I could see Angron's initial ban on them, _if_ it happened, as a "I don't want to be reminded of my days as a slave" thing.

----------


## Grim Portent

It wouldn't be the first time one of the legion's engaged in practices against the will of their primarch. A primarch's authority isn't absolute and they aren't present in every detachment of their forces.

The two notable ones that come to mind being the Iron Hands' self mutilation and that the psykers of the Death Guard would use their powers if they were sure Mortarion wouldn't find out.

With that in mind I imagine it's paraphrased from one of the HH books, but given the lack of proper citations it'd be a pain to try and check it.


Given the tone of the quote, it seems that the World Eaters adopted the crest as a sign of veterancy, while the original gladiatorial usage was to denote irrecoverable insanity, but then as the veterans became cultists of Khorne the crests were adopted by any and all World Eaters who joined the blood cults. So depending on when in the Heresy the legion got it's mkVI armour I suppose they idea could be that they were already well on their way into crazy cult behaviour.

----------


## hamishspence

> So depending on when in the Heresy the legion got it's mkVI armour I suppose they idea could be that they were already well on their way into crazy cult behaviour.


Going by the Warhammer Community article:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...-power-armour/

_Mark VI armour was first issued during the later stages of the Great Crusade, and it was in wide service by the time of the Horus Heresy. And while it may be most associated with sneaky forces such as the Raven Guard or the Alpha Legion, every Legion was issued with this mobile, relatively lightweight armour mark  even the Iron Warriors, who were well-known for their preference for heavier armour.

By the time of the Siege of Terra, the Loyalist Legions defending the Imperial Palace had whole Chapters equipped with Mark VI armour, while the Dark Mechanicum hacked the data vaults of those still loyal to the Emperor to provide the designs to Horus and his forces. With countless Forge Worlds under the control of the Warmaster, production of Mark VI armour continued apace, and the Emperors Children in particular used it en masse during the Siege of Terra._



it was issued to _every_ chapter during the late stages of the Great Crusade.

And by the Siege of Terra, the Traitor forgeworlds had_ produced_ it in large amounts, with the Emperor's Children making use of it on an especially large scale.

So, Very Early Heresy/Late Crusade World Eaters, IMO, would have at least a few in Mark VI, which would be using "regular beakie helmets" and _Late_ Heresy World Eaters could be making more use of the Sarum-style helmets with the side panels.

----------


## Grim Portent

Huh, wasn't the old fluff that mkVI was produced just before or during the Heresy by the loyalists, and distributed primarily to loyalist legions?

----------


## hamishspence

The old fluff also said that the Mark IV was the first suit with a helmet that could _turn_ - but Forgeworld very quickly dumped that.

The HH Black Books suggested that the Raven Guard were the first of the loyalists to get it in any real quantity, slightly before the Heresy - and that the Alpha Legion somehow got hold of it early as well.

----------


## Grim Portent

> The old fluff also said that the Mark IV was the first suit with a helmet that could _turn_ - but Forgeworld very quickly dumped that.
> 
> The HH Black Books suggested that the Raven Guard were the first of the loyalists to get it in any real quantity, slightly before the Heresy - and that the Alpha Legion somehow got hold of it early as well.


TBF I can only think of two models that would imply that mkII/III couldn't turn their heads, the armour through the ages ones, so dumping that makes sense for multiple reasons, cross compatability with other stuff not least among them. I would consider it part and parcel of dumping 'Saturnine' terminator armour.

Dropping mkVI being extremely rare among the traitors feels weird to me. Partly because it's an iconic part of some loyalist legions to the point that beaky is practically synonymous with Ravenguard, and partly because the chaos marine range has never had any obvious mkVI elements but has had elements of the other armour types, even if only small ones like berzerkers having mkII helmets.

EDIT: Also, it begs the question of why mkV 'Heresy' pattern power armour has the name it does.

----------


## hamishspence

I've always thought of "_long_ shinpads, _no_ kneepads" as a Mark VI thing, and those have been pretty prevalent on Chaos marines since 2e.

Mark II, III, IV, and V armour all consistently had kneepads - especially when Forgeworld started doing them.

----------


## Grim Portent

True, the lack of kneepads is pretty unique. Think the only other suit that doesn't have them is Aegis, which itself draws on other suits including VI, and I doubt that would make it into many chaos marine arsenals.

----------


## hamishspence

The old Index Astartes White Dwarf articles sometimes showed "pre-heresy Traitor Legionary" sample pics with Corvus helmets - the aforementioned Alpha Legion - but _also_, the Word Bearers, and the Emperor's Children.

----------


## Wraith

> - and that the Alpha Legion somehow got hold of it early as well.


Mostly, one would presume, by mind-wiping their own troopers and infiltrating them into the Raven Guard in relatively large numbers around and after the Istvaan Massacre. They got 'Raven Guard' armour by _being Raven Guard_ and keeping it afterwards.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Grim Portent

> Mostly, one would presume, by mind-wiping their own troopers and infiltrating them into the Raven Guard in relatively large numbers around and after the Istvaan Massacre. They got 'Raven Guard' armour by _being Raven Guard_ and keeping it afterwards.


I would imagine that if any traitor legion would be able to ambush and steal weapon and armour shipments it would be the Alpha Legion, so they could also just outright steal it when it's en route from forge world to legion detachment.

----------


## hamishspence

> Mostly, one would presume, by mind-wiping their own troopers and infiltrating them into the Raven Guard in relatively large numbers around and after the Istvaan Massacre. They got 'Raven Guard' armour by _being Raven Guard_ and keeping it afterwards.





> I would imagine that if any traitor legion would be able to ambush and steal weapon and armour shipments it would be the Alpha Legion, so they could also just outright steal it when it's en route from forge world to legion detachment.


As portrayed in HH III: Extermination, it was a "they got incomplete schematics, extrapolated, and manufactured their own" thing.

Page 87:




> These arrangements do not however account for the full scope of the Alpha Legion's extensive panoply of war, particularly their known acquisition of rare and specialised wargear notionally only manufactured by the armouries of certain Legions and never released to others, or not yet issued outside of closed prototype deployments.
> 
> A case in point is the evidence of the Alpha Legion's access to a version of Corvus pattern power armour, not then in general circulation, as early as the Dropsite Massacre and the 1st Battle of Paramar. Later battlefield recovery and analysis of this_ 'Corvus-Alpha'_ armour shows it in fact to be a unique variant likely developed separately from an early prototype of unknown manufacture. This suggests that the Alpha Legion may have acquired incomplete schematics by covert means early in the project's life and chosen to develop it on their own without recourse to the Mechanicum.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> I feel it worth mentioning that there are people who still remember the old pewter minis from the early days. Rogue Trader era design callbacks might not matter to a lot of people, but I have several people in my local club who have fond memories of models that are older than me, including the first wolf helmet, Calgar on his throne and the old genestealer cults car.
> 
> From their perspective the current Space Wolves are a bit too silly, mostly because of Grimar, but they are supposed to be something of a joke (several space marine factions are*) and the issue is that they make the same joke too many times.
> 
> 
> *Looking at you Corvus Corax (literally the name for Common Raven,) which is the same naming convention used in Canis Wolfborn but with even less effort.


I own a pair of Gargoyles that are die cast. Same with my Hive Tyrant. That was like... 2004?

And yes, there are jokes if you look, but its supposed to be at least a little subtle. The reason Corax works is because Corvus actually sounds like a 40k name whereas Canis doesn't. Also his last name is incredibly on the nose which doesn't help.

----------


## Corvus

> I feel it worth mentioning that there are people who still remember the old pewter minis from the early days. Rogue Trader era design callbacks might not matter to a lot of people, but I have several people in my local club who have fond memories of models that are older than me, including the first wolf helmet, Calgar on his throne and the old genestealer cults car.


I've still got my copy of the old WH40K: Rogue Trader rulebook packed away somewhere.  Must have had it for at least 30 years or more.  The setting has changed a lot since those early days - and the rules were more RPG oriented.

----------


## Cheesegear

> I feel it worth mentioning that there are people who still remember the old pewter minis from the early days. Rogue Trader era design callbacks might not matter to a lot of people, but I have several people in my local club who have fond memories of models that are older than me, including the first wolf helmet, Calgar on his throne and the old genestealer cults car.


I remember the 'Jes Goodwin-Pose' models. I remember old metal/pewter models - I _have_ them. I remember Jes Goodwin-pose models, _in pewter_. But I still have no desire to see their like ever again.




> but [Space Wolves] are supposed to be something of a joke (several space marine factions are*)


Yeah. The _Horus Heresy_ series has been a laugh-a-page. Space Marines are so funny.

Like saying 'SPACE SHARKS!!!' as you spray the person in front of you with cheeto dust is funny.

...Then I read a novel about the _Carcharadons_, and it wasn't funny at all. Weird, that. Where did the jokes go?




> Were it not for the fact that the primaris range doesn't have power weapon equivalents for basic troops I'd genuinely assume he was just a random dude with an axe if I saw him on the table.


You're right; They don't, so he isn't.




> The Salamanders have killing a *legit dragon* on a volcano as part of their initiation though, which is pretty damn insane.


OBJECTION!
...They kill Drakes.




> I'm also a bit annoyed that these helmets all have the crests. That's supposed to be a veteran thing, not something sported by normal marines during the Heresy.


Similar to the Imperial Fists' heads; They don't really make for good line troopers. And I'm starting to think that it's intentional.




> They got 'Raven Guard' armour by _being Raven Guard_ and keeping it afterwards.


I've read _Deliverance Lost_. That's pretty much exactly how it happened.




> And yes, there are jokes if you look, but its supposed to be at least a little subtle.


'30/40K is satire! There's meant to be jokes.'

...Kind of. Not really. Partial agree. Konrad Curze. _The Nostromo_. His ethos. I get it.

Corax being devastated at what he did to his own Legion during the Heresy (see; _Deliverance Lost_) and saying 'Nevermore.' as he flies into the Eye of Terror. I get it.

But it's not supposed to be ****ing stupid.
I give a pass to _Necromunda_ and its materials. But that's a whole different kettle of fish.

----------


## Eldan

> *Looking at you Corvus Corax (literally the name for Common Raven,) which is the same naming convention used in Canis Wolfborn but with even less effort..


Corvus Corax only wins in the silly naming contest over Iron Hand with the Iron Hand of the Iron Hands, on his flagship Fist of Iron because everyone making lists forgets about Ferrus Manus.

----------


## Fergie0044

> '30/40K is satire! There's meant to be jokes.'
> 
> ...Kind of. Not really. Partial agree. Konrad Curze. _The Nostromo_. His ethos. I get it.
> 
> Corax being devastated at what he did to his own Legion during the Heresy (see; _Deliverance Lost_) and saying 'Nevermore.' as he flies into the Eye of Terror. I get it.
> 
> But it's not supposed to be ****ing stupid.


Eh, 40k and it's lore is big enough to be both. Space marines can be big stupid unsubtle satire of fascism etc AND also brain washed child soldiers helping to prop up a decaying nightmare regime of suffering. They can be real people with real emotions, grappling with does the ends justify the means as they help nuke a planet to stop demons from eating ten more planets AND they can do so while being named Wolflord Wolfy McWolfson. All of this can be explored in the fluff and novels, different spokes for different folks and all that.

----------


## Wraith

> Corvus Corax only wins in the silly naming contest over Iron Hand with the Iron Hand of the Iron Hands, on his flagship Fist of Iron because everyone making lists forgets about Ferrus Manus.


Wins? Nonsense.

Alpharius Omegon is named for the Alpha and the Omega, from the Greek alphabet meaning "First" and "Last".

_His name means 'Mr. Firstname Lastname'._  :Small Tongue: 

Come to think of it, the only Primarch whose name isn't an obvious pun or silly reference is Perturabo, and that might just be because I've not worked it out.

----------


## Eldan

Perturabo: slight change of Perdurabo, meaning "I will endure". This was also the "secret" occult name of Aleister Crowley.

That kind of thing, I'd say, is not stupid, that's subtle enough to be awesome.

I think I'm less annoyed by really obvious references than overused ones. Like, if he were called something like Tiberius Ferreus instead of just Ferrus Manus, that would be considerably better.

----------


## Cheesegear

> All of this can be explored in the fluff and novels, different spokes for different folks and all that.


The problem is that I _haven't_ seen it explored, and I doubt you have either... Maybe in those _Warhammer: Adventures_ novels for kids? I dunno. Haven't read them. Nothing about them appeals to me.

I give a pass on the Primarchs' dumb names because that's before 3rd Ed. - let alone 5th Ed.
I give a pass on _Necromunda_ because the dumb stuff from that game has been around for as long as I have.

If you can point me to anything written post-5th Ed. that is abjectly _designed_ to be _stupid_ and _made fun of_, points for you, I guess.

Like, a designer went to GW's shareholders and said 'See this product? It's stupid and meant to be made fun of. I think it's neat.'
And the shareholders go 'We approve this laughing stock (pun unintended)!'

...Cause I can't think of anything even remotely like that.

Even The Waaagh! was retconned to actually make sense - a while back, at that. _Orks_ aren't even a joke anymore...And yet Space Wolves are? Okay. Sure.  :Small Confused:

----------


## Grim Portent

> If you can point me to anything written post-5th Ed. that is abjectly _designed_ to be _stupid_ and _made fun of_, points for you, I guess.


Logan Grimnar riding a grav-sleigh pulled by wolves? I cannot countenance that the designers weren't thinking of Santa Clause more than Thor and his goats or Freja and her cats when they designed that.

Or the Sloppity Bilepiper, which is weird and silly even for Nurgle unless you go waaaay back to the idea of a Nurgle carnival.

The other full model examples that leap to mind are from AoS, which has soaked up a lot of the goofy, but there's little also more little 40k things like the memed on smiley heads for chaos marine Chosen, the sassy nurgling from the Death Guard and so on.

----------


## Wraith

> Like, a designer went to GW's shareholders and said 'See this product? It's stupid and meant to be made fun of. I think it's neat.'
> And the shareholders go 'We approve this laughing stock (pun unintended)!'
> 
> ...Cause I can't think of anything even remotely like that.


Trazyn the Infinite dumping the Bell of Gerstahl into the webway because it had trashed some of his collection - and hoping it would similarly mess up some passing Aeldari out of petty grumpiness - is pretty much the only thing I can think of.

We also made fun of The Gathering Storm in general, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't GW's intent....

----------


## Eldan

Most of the Infinite and the Divine, really.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> Trazyn the Infinite dumping the Bell of Gerstahl into the webway because it had trashed some of his collection - and hoping it would similarly mess up some passing Aeldari out of petty grumpiness - is pretty much the only thing I can think of.
> 
> We also made fun of The Gathering Storm in general, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't GW's intent....


I think Trazyn absorbed all of the silliness that should be more spread out, cuz he's very difficult to take seriously.

----------


## Cheesegear

> Logan Grimnar riding a grav-sleigh pulled by wolves? I cannot countenance that the designers weren't thinking of Santa Clause more than Thor and his goats or Freja and her cats when they designed that.


Sure. But were they designing it because they thought it was silly and stupid, or did they design it thinking that people would think it was _cool_ - and they were just wrong?
(I wonder how the designer of the Wolf Helm sprue feels right now.)




> I think Trazyn absorbed all of the silliness that should be more spread out, cuz he's very difficult to take seriously.


Fair enough. Trazyn is a Get Out of Jail Free Card because he's basically The Master. He can anything he wants, anytime he wants, he's evil and insane, and he can't really die. That gives creative writers - the serious ones _and_ the stupid ones - a lot of freedom to write basically whatever they want. If it's serious, it's in character. If it's stupid, it's also in character. Do whatever you want and it works.

----------


## noob

> I think Trazyn absorbed all of the silliness that should be more spread out, cuz he's very difficult to take seriously.


He goes around and collect the sillyness, for him nothing is impossible to collect.
Eventually everything but him will be completely serious.

----------


## Wraith

On further reflection, the funniest moment - and intentionally so - that I have read in recent 40k comes from a very unexpected source; Azrael, Chapter Master of the Dark Angels.

He had a short story called _The Trials of Azrael_ where he ends up alone on a Space Hulk save for a lone Imperial Guardswoman, and through various shenanigans they get separated - she being chased by some Chaos Marines who are bashing down a door to get at her, while he is elsewhere trying not to get eviscerated by Khârne the Betrayer. Azrael escapes through luck and ingenuity, and runs off to help his human friend, who is about to die as the doors are giving way; preparing to sell herself dearly, she waits until the last second as the doors collapse and opens fire with her laspistol....

...And accidentally shoots Azrael in the chest. He's killed the Chaos Marines single-handed and kicked the door in to rescue her, only to get shot for his troubles.

And _then_ he snarks at her. He says something witty like "Well, is that the thanks I get for saving your life?" and then smirks at her horrified expression.

It's a really good story, and it started a trend for depicting Azrael as actually being a pretty cool guy who doesn't sweat the small things and understands how intimidating he can be to the point where he uses it for... Well, not really jokes, but he's the least grim-faced and deranged Dark Angels Chapter Master since Corswain, and it's great. He's even (comparatively) nice to _Luther_ at one point.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Drasius

> On further reflection, the funniest moment - and intentionally so - that I have read in recent 40k comes from a very unexpected source; Azrael, Chapter Master of the Dark Angels.
> 
> He had a short story called _The Trials of Azrael_ where he ends up alone on a Space Hulk save for a lone Imperial Guardswoman, and through various shenanigans they get separated - she being chased by some Chaos Marines who are bashing down a door to get at her, while he is elsewhere trying not to get eviscerated by Khârne the Betrayer. Azrael escapes through luck and ingenuity, and runs off to help his human friend, who is about to die as the doors are giving way; preparing to sell herself dearly, she waits until the last second as the doors collapse and opens fire with her laspistol....
> 
> ...And accidentally shoots Azrael in the chest. He's killed the Chaos Marines single-handed and kicked the door in to rescue her, only to get shot for his troubles.
> 
> And _then_ he snarks at her. He says something witty like "Well, is that the thanks I get for saving your life?" and then smirks at her horrified expression.
> 
> It's a really good story, and it started a trend for depicting Azrael as actually being a pretty cool guy who doesn't sweat the small things and understands how intimidating he can be to the point where he uses it for... Well, not really jokes, but he's the least grim-faced and deranged Dark Angels Chapter Master since Corswain, and it's great. He's even (comparatively) nice to _Luther_ at one point.


That's also an Audiobook, and while I don't know that i would say that it's *good*, it was enjoyable. It was also one of the earlier Audiobooks - I want to say it came out around the same time as Ascension of Balthazar which was the tie-in with the DA/Chaos starter for 6th (and was also surprisingly decent/enjoyable). The one thing I distinctly remember was how it sort of stuck to the rules of 6th and was very obvious about Kharn only getting 2 hits in on Azrael, since he only had 3W.

----------


## Lord Torath

> Wins? Nonsense.
> 
> Alpharius Omegon is named for the Alpha and the Omega, from the Greek alphabet meaning "First" and "Last".
> 
> _His name means 'Mr. Firstname Lastname'._ 
> 
> Come to think of it, the only Primarch whose name isn't an obvious pun or silly reference is Perturabo, and that might just be because I've not worked it out.


Perturb: : to throw into confusion/disorder

I have many of the old pewter models, and I like many of them much better than the newer models.  I particularly like the old, 2E pewter Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, and Harlequins.  They give me the feeling that Eldar have perfected melee combat to the point that it's like a dance to them, as they gracefully flow between forms.  I like the 3E Banshee Exarch, though.

But that's just me.

I like the 4E tyranids the best, although I also really like the 2E genestealers, Hive Tyrants, and Carnifexes.

----------


## Eldan

Still think he's more "Perdurabo" than "preturb". Maybe he's a bit of both.

----------


## Fergie0044

> Like, a designer went to GW's shareholders and said 'See this product? It's stupid and meant to be made fun of. I think it's neat.'
> And the shareholders go 'We approve this laughing stock (pun unintended)!'
> 
> ...Cause I can't think of anything even remotely like that.


Grim Portent beat me to the punch with the Sloppity Bilepiper, but I'd also like to point out the Spoilpox Scrivener and the Death Guard Tallyman (gee, nurgle gets a lot of this, doesn't he?). Two models that take the Lovecraftian concept of a god of death and disease and wrap it up as  an accountant or HR middle manager. I can just imagine; 

"I know what time it is Rotius, but I'm looking at the numbers for the WENUS (Weekly Egregious, Nauseous & Unspeakable Sickness)  and I'm NOT HAPPY. I'm afraid I'm going to have to write you up for this and bring it up with Mr Plaguefather in your next quarterly review."

----------


## Grim Portent

> Grim Portent beat me to the punch with the Sloppity Bilepiper, but I'd also like to point out the Spoilpox Scrivener and the Death Guard Tallyman (gee, nurgle gets a lot of this, doesn't he?). Two models that take the Lovecraftian concept of a god of death and disease and wrap it up as  an accountant or HR middle manager. I can just imagine; 
> 
> "I know what time it is Rotius, but I'm looking at the numbers for the WENUS (Weekly Egregious, Nauseous & Unspeakable Sickness)  and I'm NOT HAPPY. I'm afraid I'm going to have to write you up for this and bring it up with Mr Plaguefather in your next quarterly review."


The Tallymen are pretty suited to the Nurgle theme, indeed they have a long history. Dour and dry, dutifully recording the amounts and severity of death and disease.

The Spoilpox Scrivener is just a really ugly model that feels too cartoony even for Daemons. It takes what can be a very sensible, serious idea as seen with Epidemius, and gives it this weird proboscis that loops around the back and comes around as a loudhailer crossed with a squig.

----------


## Blackhawk748

> The Tallymen are pretty suited to the Nurgle theme, indeed they have a long history. Dour and dry, dutifully recording the amounts and severity of death and disease.
> 
> The Spoilpox Scrivener is just a really ugly model that feels too cartoony even for Daemons. It takes what can be a very sensible, serious idea as seen with Epidemius, and gives it this weird proboscis that loops around the back and comes around as a loudhailer crossed with a squig.


Good lord that thing looks awful. Who gave the Alien chest burster long ass legs and a scroll?

----------


## Grim Portent

> Good lord that thing looks awful. Who gave the Alien chest burster long ass legs and a scroll?


I think GWs choice of green really doesn't help it. I could see it looking gross in the right way if it was pallid and meaty looking.

----------


## Wraith

> The one thing I distinctly remember was how it sort of stuck to the rules of 6th and was very obvious about Khârne only getting 2 hits in on Azrael, since he only had 3W.


I liked it enough as art, but also because of what else it alluded to in the lore.

The first is just how much stuff the Dark Angels seem to know, compared to other Chapters. Azrael finds out that he and Khârne are being manipulated by a Tzeentch Greater Daemon into mutually destroying each other, and he wins the day by calling the Daemon by it's True Name out of nowhere. It's pulled directly out of the author's butt, but in a way that I really liked.

"We've spent 10,000 years chasing after Dark Angels who fell to Chaos, searching through their illusions, pseudonyms and distractions to bring them to the Emperor's justice," He tells it. "Just think what else we found out about Chaos while we were doing that?"

_That's amazing._

Secondly, Azrael's sense of humour. He not only snarks at a Guardswoman, but when he escapes the Space Hulk without killing or being killed by Khârne (spoilers, if you hadn't already noticed that neither character is currently dead) he leaves Khârne a gift (the bound Daemon who was trying to kill them both) as well as a 'calling card' so that Khârne knows it was him, and that he'll be back to settle the score another day.

My favourite version of Space Marines is the ones where they're not stuffy, "Arthurian Knights" speaking in archaic ren-faire accents. Usually you find that in the Horus Heresy books - Argul Tal and Khârne calling each other idiots - or at other times only when its Traitor Astartes talking to each other, like the First Claw of the Night Lords, or Khayon and Lheorvine from the _Talon of Horus_ series. Azrael is one of the few Loyalists I've seen do it, and its especially fun because of his otherwise grim reputation and prestigious position.




> Perturb: : to throw into confusion/disorder


It's possible, but I don't think it fits, really. Perturabo builds fortresses, is all about efficiency and exacting standards; he's notoriously rigid-minded, even the Iron Warriors are (by the standards of Astartes) boring and prone to being grim and faceless. Yeah, he's good at breaking down other fortresses, but he does it with precision and strict, careful planning - he's arguably the least chaotic of all the Chaos Primarchs. "Disorder" is the opposite of what he stands for... Which I guess is a theme of sorts?

----------


## Artanis

Great, now my brain is trying to come up with jokes involving Omegon saying "I am Alpharius".

----------


## lord_khaine

> Great, now my brain is trying to come up with jokes involving Omegon saying "I am Alpharius".


No Im Alpharius!

----------


## Wraith

He's not Alpharius, he's a very naughty boy!




> Great, now my brain is trying to come up with jokes involving Omegon saying "I am Alpharius".


It's not even a joke, I think? There's only one guys who knows that Alpharius and Omegon are two people, so when Dorn kills Alpharius, Omegon carries on the ruse and continues to use his brother's name to sow additional confusion.

----------


## Sinewmire

> Other Wolf Lords include Krakens and Dragons in their name. There are clearly other animals on Fenris.
> 
> Logan Grimnar...No wolves...Oh wait he got turned into a meme _because_ they gave him wolves.
> 
> ...Can you actually imagine if GW said that the Raven Guard ride Giant Ravens into battle? Because their spirit animal is ravens?


I forget who it was, maybe even Dan Abnett, but they said that if the other Chapters were as tied to their schtick as the Space Wolves, the Blood Angels would have had Brother-Count Nosferatu von Alucard riding a Blood-bat.

----------


## Grim Portent

If their shtick was being vampires sure, but their shtick is being space Catholics with bits of vampirism tacked on, hence their fondness for things like halos, wings, sculpted abs and other pseudo-christian imagery.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> If their shtick was being vampires sure, but their shtick is being space Catholics with bits of vampirism tacked on, hence their fondness for things like halos, wings, sculpted abs and other pseudo-christian imagery.


I thought that was the Black Templers. Though Blood Angels are a lot more subtle then the _current_ Space Wolves. Because I remember the days when Space Wolves basically had a couple of pet wolves and that their shtick was being space Vikings, not space werewolves. Sure, the wulfen existed in the fluff, but they were about as prevalent as the vampire stuff is for Blood Angels. So existed, sure. But it wasn't their whole thing.

----------


## Cheesegear

> I thought that was the Black Templers.


Blood Angels are classical Italian renaissance.
Black Templars are more Anglo-French.




> Sure, the wulfen existed in the fluff, but they were about as prevalent as the vampire stuff is for Blood Angels.


There was the _Curse of the Wulfen_, which was more or less described as a Space Wolf going feral. There was no model for it. No way to really represent it. It wasn't really a _visible_ thing. Lone Wolves go crazy. Everyone knows that. The Curse of the Wulfen means you stop taking orders, you stop hanging out with your brothers, you don't enjoy the things you like anymore, you don't like going outside, you no longer care about having the respect/adoration of your peers or superiors, you have thoughts of committing sudoku in Minecraft, you don't groom yourself anymore... Y'know. Normal stuff.

Then _Codex: Eye of Terror_ happened, and the 13th Great Company came back. GW released models for Wulfen, and they were basically lycans, and the fluff was changed so that 'going Wulfen' wasn't a curse, or a psychological disorder imposed on Space Wolves who had seen too much ****. It was inherent to their gene-seed, and Space Wolves are all Doomed. DOOOOMMMED! If they should even think about going near the Warp.* Even going so far as to imply 'Magnus did it.'

*Which unfortunately came with a bunch of **** about how Space Wolves' Psykers don't even use the Warp, even though they look like ducks, quack like ducks and walk like ducks.

Emperor: That's it! Psykers are banned.
Leman Russ: Not mine, though. Right?
_Leman Russ looks around frantically, grabbing the first thing to hand - a rotted wolf tail._
Leman Russ: My guys carry these...Uhh...Wolf Tails...****. My guys aren't Psykers so your rule doesn't apply to me.

Emperor: Oh? We're gonna play baby games where you pretend to not know exactly what I mean, just because I didn't use the words that you would use. Oh okay.

_Leman Russ looks at the wolf tail in his hands._
Leman Russ: Holy **** I can't believe that worked.

Emperor: Of course it worked. You put wolf **** on everything, don't you? ...DON'T YOU.

Leman Russ: ...I think I've just played myself. Dad _knows_. Dad's gonna punish me because I know he knows, and now in order to sell this, I have to put wolf **** on everything...Or it all comes crashing down.

Emperor: ...If you're gonna lie straight to my face, I'm gonna make you look like a furry. That's your punishment. Forever.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Emperor: That's it! Psykers are banned.
> Leman Russ: Not mine, though. Right?
> _Leman Russ looks around frantically, grabbing the first thing to hand - a rotted wolf tail._
> Leman Russ: My guys carry these...Uhh...Wolf Tails...****. My guys aren't Psykers so your rule doesn't apply to me.
> 
> Emperor: Oh? We're gonna play baby games where you pretend to not know exactly what I mean, just because I didn't use the words that you would use. Oh okay.
> 
> _Leman Russ looks at the wolf tail in his hands._
> Leman Russ: Holy **** I can't believe that worked.
> ...


All I can think is how this conversation sounds like how TTS would've written this conversation. Complete with Big E's voice since the text to speech device wouldn't be built at this time.

----------


## Cheesegear

> All I can think is how this conversation sounds like how TTS would've written this conversation.


All's I can think of is Russ handing out fursuits to his Rune Priests, as they look at him in horror.

Leman Russ: Look...Dad called my bluff. It's either you stick this crap on your armour, or you never get to use your Powers again.

Rune Priest: ...Did you tell him we're Rune Priests, not Psykers?

Leman Russ: I did. He wasn't buying it. I had to make something up on the spot. Also...Your name is Wolf Wolfson now. Just go with it. I think Dad's run out of patience, and he's forcing me to play this out as a punishment. He said I can keep my Psykers if I make the Legion all furries.

Rune Priest: He said WHAT!?

Bjorn: ...What should I do? Do I have to put that wolf crap on my armour?

Leman Russ: Not you, Bjorn. You've been great. _*Finger guns*_

----------


## Grim Portent

> I thought that was the Black Templers. Though Blood Angels are a lot more subtle then the _current_ Space Wolves. Because I remember the days when Space Wolves basically had a couple of pet wolves and that their shtick was being space Vikings, not space werewolves. Sure, the wulfen existed in the fluff, but they were about as prevalent as the vampire stuff is for Blood Angels. So existed, sure. But it wasn't their whole thing.


Black Templars shtick is being a mix of various Crusader orders. Specifically the Teutonic Order, which is where the german names are from, the Knights Hospitaller, who used the Maltese Cross the BTs use and wore a lot of black, and the Knights Templar.

----------


## Brookshw

> Leman Russ: Not you, Bjorn. You've been great. _*Finger guns*_


This brought such a smile to my face, thank you.

----------


## Wraith

> If their shtick was being vampires sure, but their shtick is being space Catholics with bits of vampirism tacked on, hence their fondness for things like halos, wings, sculpted abs and other pseudo-christian imagery.


Pretty sure that the Dark Angels are the Space Catholics. They wear the franciscan monk-style hoods, their Chaplains carry special rosaries, they're all atoning for 'sin' and the likes...




> Blood Angels are classical Italian renaissance.
> Black Templars are more Anglo-French.


The Black Templars first Chapter Master was Sigismund, it's currently Helbrecht, and they have heroes with names like Amalric and Korneliusz. Culturally they're Teutonic/German, with 'Knights Templar' thinly spread on top.

If any of the Legions are Anglo-inspired, it's the Death Guard. Dour, miserable, a legacy of polluted cities from ages gone, they drink stuff that would probably kill other humans.... Oh, and Garro is from "Albion" to boot.

----------


## Eldan

They don't have Templars thinly spread on top. They have Teutonic Knights thickly spread thickly over a thick fundament of more Teutonicism.

----------


## Artanis

> It's not even a joke, I think? There's only one guys who knows that Alpharius and Omegon are two people, so when Dorn kills Alpharius, Omegon carries on the ruse and continues to use his brother's name to sow additional confusion.


_That's the joke my brain is trying to make_  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Grim Portent

> Pretty sure that the Dark Angels are the Space Catholics. They wear the franciscan monk-style hoods, their Chaplains carry special rosaries, they're all atoning for 'sin' and the likes...
> 
> 
> 
> The Black Templars first Chapter Master was Sigismund, it's currently Helbrecht, and they have heroes with names like Amalric and Korneliusz. Culturally they're Teutonic/German, with 'Knights Templar' thinly spread on top.
> 
> If any of the Legions are Anglo-inspired, it's the Death Guard. Dour, miserable, a legacy of polluted cities from ages gone, they drink stuff that would probably kill other humans.... Oh, and Garro is from "Albion" to boot.


Different bits of Catholicism.

Blood Angels draw heavily on the art from Italy and Spain, both statues and paintings of saints, and their cups of Sanguinius' blood is loosely based on Communion and transubstantiation. Sangiunius himself is an overt metaphor for Christ, having martyred himself and possessing angelic features.

Dark Angels draw on monastic orders, cloistered knights, and more than a bit on conspiratorial tropes centered around the Knights Templar.

Black Templars are primarily Knights Hospitaller with Teutonic Knight names.

The medieval Catholic references are most prominent in the BTs and BAs in my opinion, with the prevalence of Maltese Crosses in the former and the saintly imagery of the latter.

----------


## LeSwordfish

> I liked it enough as art, but also because of what else it alluded to in the lore.
> 
> The first is just how much stuff the Dark Angels seem to know, compared to other Chapters. Azrael finds out that he and Khârne are being manipulated by a Tzeentch Greater Daemon into mutually destroying each other, and he wins the day by calling the Daemon by it's True Name out of nowhere. It's pulled directly out of the author's butt, but in a way that I really liked.
> 
> "We've spent 10,000 years chasing after Dark Angels who fell to Chaos, searching through their illusions, pseudonyms and distractions to bring them to the Emperor's justice," He tells it. "Just think what else we found out about Chaos while we were doing that?"
> 
> _That's amazing._
> 
> Secondly, Azrael's sense of humour. He not only snarks at a Guardswoman, but when he escapes the Space Hulk without killing or being killed by Khârne (spoilers, if you hadn't already noticed that neither character is currently dead) he leaves Khârne a gift (the bound Daemon who was trying to kill them both) as well as a 'calling card' so that Khârne knows it was him, and that he'll be back to settle the score another day.
> ...


Apparently its this. Based on Pedurabo, the pseudonym of occultist Aleister Crowley, which apparently means "I will endure to the end". You can see the Dure- of endure or durable.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

God, the Crusade mission pack is hot garbage.  Sabotage has no counterplay at all.  The action doesn't even fail if the unit doing it leaves the objective before the end of the turn; dude was using Swooping Hawks and just jumping in, starting the action, and then buggering off in the shooting phase, which doesn't make the action fail because Skyleap isn't a normal move.   :Small Sigh:   Even without that, there's no counterplay because the action is completed at the end of your turn and doesn't care if the other player controls the marker; that just adds in the insult of not even being able to shoot the unit after the deed is done.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> God, the Crusade mission pack is hot garbage.  Sabotage has no counterplay at all.  The action doesn't even fail if the unit doing it leaves the objective before the end of the turn; dude was using Swooping Hawks and just jumping in, starting the action, and then buggering off in the shooting phase, which doesn't make the action fail because Skyleap isn't a normal move.    Even without that, there's no counterplay because the action is completed at the end of your turn and doesn't care if the other player controls the marker; that just adds in the insult of not even being able to shoot the unit after the deed is done.


Unless Sabotage specifies otherwise, any and all actions fail if you move after beginning them, unless they complete before you move again. So if they are completed at the end of your turn then you can't do any sort of extra move after beginning an action. Not Battle Focus, Quicken, Fire and Fade, and not Skyleap.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> Unless Sabotage specifies otherwise, any and all actions fail if you move after beginning them, unless they complete before you move again. So if they are completed at the end of your turn then you can't do any sort of extra move after beginning an action. Not Battle Focus, Quicken, Fire and Fade, and not Skyleap.


The action rules don't actually say that.  "If a unit is destroyed, makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back, attempts to manifest a psychic power, declares a charge, performs a Heroic Intervention or makes any attacks with ranged weapons after it has started to perform an action but before that action is completed, that action is failed. Otherwise, that action is successfully completed."  Battle Focus says it's a normal move, but Skyleap does not, and it's not any of the other things on the list either.   :Small Sigh:   He gave them the Crusade upgrade that lets them shoot while performing an action, so they'd jump in, start the action, shoot the crap out of whatever unit was right there in front of them trying to screen out the objective, and leave.  While we're at it, you're also allowed to pile in and consolidate, so even without janky Eldar nonsense you can still move in some ways without failing.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

BBC radio covers the story of Warhammer's start.

----------


## Wraith

I believe that 'The Dice Men' is out this week - the biography of early Citadel Miniatures/Games Workshop from the early 1980's to the early 1990's. Likely it's a tie-in to that?

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> The action rules don't actually say that.  "If a unit is destroyed, makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back, attempts to manifest a psychic power, declares a charge, performs a Heroic Intervention or makes any attacks with ranged weapons after it has started to perform an action but before that action is completed, that action is failed. Otherwise, that action is successfully completed."  Battle Focus says it's a normal move, but Skyleap does not, and it's not any of the other things on the list either.    He gave them the Crusade upgrade that lets them shoot while performing an action, so they'd jump in, start the action, shoot the crap out of whatever unit was right there in front of them trying to screen out the objective, and leave.  While we're at it, you're also allowed to pile in and consolidate, so even without janky Eldar nonsense you can still move in some ways without failing.


So turns out it felt wrong because it is, but the reason is buried in the core book FAQ.  Oh well.   :Small Sigh:

----------


## Forum Explorer

> So turns out it felt wrong because it is, but the reason is buried in the core book FAQ.  Oh well.


Sorry, I mean to look it up for you, but the site was giving me problems and I promptly forgot about it.  :Small Red Face:

----------


## Lord Raziere

just realized: Possible reason why Lorgar might've fell besides the reasons that usually get brought up that I've never seen talked about**:

The Cult Mechanicus. The Emperor signed a treaty with them before he even got out of the solar system and some were worshipping him as the Omnissiah. by doing so he set a precedent that he could overlook even the religion thing if the people were strong and/or useful enough to the Imperium, so Lorgar probably would've noticed this and thought he could prove that his worship could be accepted like the Cult Mechanicus was by being useful enough or gaining enough followers and power that the Emperor couldn't afford to kill them all. that might be why Lorgar kept trying over a hundred years, because he saw this red-robed precedent for a religion being allowed everywhere because they were too vital for even the Emperor to tick off, so Lorgar thought if the tech priests can do it, why can't he? The Emperor's own hypocrisy ended up reinforcing they very effort he was trying to stifle.

----------


## Drasius

Oh how this thread has fallen from ye days of olde.

Votan release coming up about to be the most broken thing 40k has ever experienced and not a peep about it here.

Is it that this thread is dead, that people are just resigned to stuff being busted as sh*t on release and getting fixed down the track or is that just the new reality that you wait for your release to have your time in the sun and hope it lasts more than 5 minutes? There's no batreps anymore either, there's no discussion on unit breakdowns or the merits of taking unit x over unit y, and I can't remember the last time I saw lists posted here looking for advice.

What has happened to 40k?

----------


## Lord Torath

I blame Cheesegear.  He got fed up with GW and decided he was done with 40k.   :Small Wink: 

More seriously, I think it may have something to do with just how much truth there is in the Gamebreakors and Showsteelers video.

I personally have been done with GW's rules since about 1999 or so, so I'm mostly just here for the minis.  It's interesting to see what's new, but I'm not committed to getting the Hot New Thing.  The fluff discussions are interesting, but I've never read a 40k novel, and I'm not likely to.  So I'm mostly just here as a 'filthy casual'.   :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Destro_Yersul

Yeah, I'm buying Votann minis because I like the aesthetic. I haven't looked at and don't really care about their rules, because I've come to accept that the odds I even finish painting them before the rules change are functionally nil, and I don't have anyone to play with anyways.

----------


## Wraith

> What has happened to 40k?


Perhaps ironically, I have been busy painting 40k miniatures. For the first time in about 8 years.  :Small Tongue: 

Just Primaris Dark Angels, nothing meta or even vaguely related to anything that has been released lately - 30k, Votann, whatever - but they're comparatively cheap and easy to get hold of.

That's pretty much it, to be honest. I don't have the money to look at the stuff that's come out for the last few months, even if I wanted to start yet another Space Marine army that I would get to play once per month, so I haven't bothered to keep up with it. And from what I can see, the meta has more or less frozen while everyone waits to see what the impact of Votaan is going to be.

Pretty hyped about the 40k-MtG crossover decks, though. I might get to play them more than once, and all 4 cost less than a single 40k boxed set so... easy choice?  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Lord Torath

> Pretty hyped about the 40k-MtG crossover decks, though. I might get to play them more than once, and all 4 cost less than a single 40k boxed set so... easy choice?


Wait, so GW is teaming up with WotC?  

Should I be running for my survival bunker?  You know, assuming I _had_ a survival bunker...

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Oh how this thread has fallen from ye days of olde.
> 
> Votan release coming up about to be the most broken thing 40k has ever experienced and not a peep about it here.
> 
> Is it that this thread is dead, that people are just resigned to stuff being busted as sh*t on release and getting fixed down the track or is that just the new reality that you wait for your release to have your time in the sun and hope it lasts more than 5 minutes? There's no batreps anymore either, there's no discussion on unit breakdowns or the merits of taking unit x over unit y, and I can't remember the last time I saw lists posted here looking for advice.
> 
> What has happened to 40k?


I mean, I still play, but the last few times I did batreps, there was no response, which really removes any motivation to actually do them. I don't really want any advice on my lists, and 9th edition has really been one broken thing after another since Drukhari was released, with GW taking a super long time to fix any problems. Honestly, while I am enjoying my games, I'm also pretty done with this edition, and either want a new edition or a fan made set of rules to be made and used instead.

Votann are so broken there is almost nothing to talk about. If they are allowed to be used with 3D printed models, cause half the range hasn't been released yet, than there won't be a tournament scene really. Hilariously that has created something worth talking about. Germany tournaments have reportedly just flat out banned the codex outright. I really hope NA follows suit along with, well pretty much everyone. Make a strong statement to GW about releasing broken things.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Word is the Squats are getting competitively banned in Europe, though that might just be the WTC's no play without an FAQ policy.  We'll see what happens post-FAQ/balance dataslate.  Right now, though, their major weakness is slow speed and short range (relatively easily destroyed bikers aside), so a Guard leafblower artillery list might be able to put the hurt on them.  I may get the opportunity to find out.

----------


## LeSwordfish

I've mostly been playing 30k recently, it's a super solid ruleset. I have had some Tau on my To Paint pile since release, so hope to get those painted up. The rate of change of the 40k ruleset is a bit annoying though.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

> I mean, I still play, but the last few times I did batreps, there was no response, which really removes any motivation to actually do them. I don't really want any advice on my lists, and 9th edition has really been one broken thing after another since Drukhari was released, with GW taking a super long time to fix any problems. Honestly, while I am enjoying my games, I'm also pretty done with this edition, and either want a new edition or a* fan made set of rules to be made and used instead.*


I have good news for you and it's called One Page Rules  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Wraith

> Wait, so GW is teaming up with WotC?  
> 
> Should I be running for my survival bunker?  You know, assuming I _had_ a survival bunker...


Just save time and burn your wallet right now.

Seriously though; We've criticised GW for their questionable licencing practices long before now - shoddy mobile games with pay-to-win garbage being the least of it, to say nothing of stuff that's just poor quality - but when they get it right, it's VERY right.

The "40k Universes Beyond" set might just be one of the highest quality things they have ever done with the IP, and I *might* even include Dark Heresy and WHFRP in that statement. I haven't played Magic in about 6 years, but I'm still planning on grabbing all 4 of the Commander Decks when they launch in about 2 and a half weeks.

----------


## Drasius

> Word is the Squats are getting competitively banned in Europe, though that might just be the WTC's no play without an FAQ policy.  We'll see what happens post-FAQ/balance dataslate.  Right now, though, their major weakness is slow speed and short range (relatively easily destroyed bikers aside), so a Guard leafblower artillery list might be able to put the hurt on them.  I may get the opportunity to find out.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

The source link doesn't work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co0x4WrV34c

----------


## Easy e

Things are moving so fast from GW, that it is almost impossible to keep up.  

However, I have moved to many other rulesets, and still use my existing 40K models (some from 1st edition even!).  You can go to the Wargame Vault and literally find 100's of sci-fi rule sets that are compatible with GW models.  Many of them are free or very low cost for a PDF.   

PM me if you want me to recommend some.  :)

----------


## Wraith

> "Votann Banned in Germany"


That honestly surprises me, and frankly I don't see how its enforceable.

It's a real GW army, not some easily dismissed home-brew nonsense, and maybe it is a bit wonky and its being dropped into a relatively new (if you count the way that most people haven't been able to play it for the first 2 years) edition, but... so what? Who gets to say that an army is 'too good'? What makes them think they can stop people from playing the type of army they wanted? They couldn't (or at least, didn't?) do it when Tau-Dar were winning 90% of tournaments in 6th and 7th edition, so why do they get to do it now before anything has been proven?

I suppose the argument is, we've been through the Tau-Dar supremacy and we don't want it back - more to the point, we don't want the kind of meta that will arise to combat it, not just because its not fun but also because its a big shift from the current meta and people just don't have the money, time or inclination to catch up again. I would agree with all that.

At the same time, it feels... Selfish, to me? Despite the promise of preservation, there's also more than a little bit of "I'm happy with the way the game is now, but you're not allowed to play the game the way that makes you happy". 

I haven't seen a single new-codex prediction that has turned out 100% correct. At least let people play a few tournaments and see if the math-hammer stands up before making them verboten - who knows, maybe they'll even ENJOY a new challenge every once in while instead of just the same solved archetypes?

----------


## LeSwordfish

Remember that right now the only Votann rules and models are the ones in the Limited Edition box. I think it's pretty standard for those rules to be disallowed until the book is available to everyone. I've also seen people specifically banning 3D Printed Votann models to avoid meta-chasers rocking up with rules and models that aren't out yet.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> That honestly surprises me, and frankly I don't see how its enforceable.
> 
> It's a real GW army, not some easily dismissed home-brew nonsense, and maybe it is a bit wonky and its being dropped into a relatively new (if you count the way that most people haven't been able to play it for the first 2 years) edition, but... so what? Who gets to say that an army is 'too good'? What makes them think they can stop people from playing the type of army they wanted? They couldn't (or at least, didn't?) do it when Tau-Dar were winning 90% of tournaments in 6th and 7th edition, so why do they get to do it now before anything has been proven?
> 
> I suppose the argument is, we've been through the Tau-Dar supremacy and we don't want it back - more to the point, we don't want the kind of meta that will arise to combat it, not just because its not fun but also because its a big shift from the current meta and people just don't have the money, time or inclination to catch up again. I would agree with all that.
> 
> At the same time, it feels... Selfish, to me? Despite the promise of preservation, there's also more than a little bit of "I'm happy with the way the game is now, but you're not allowed to play the game the way that makes you happy". 
> 
> I haven't seen a single new-codex prediction that has turned out 100% correct. At least let people play a few tournaments and see if the math-hammer stands up before making them verboten - who knows, maybe they'll even ENJOY a new challenge every once in while instead of just the same solved archetypes?


I mean, it's very easy to enforce. You just reject lists that are using Voltan units. It's so easy you could write a computer program to do it for you. 


And they did effectively do that back in 6th and 7th. It was called the ITC ruleset. Which took a different approach to the problem, instead tackling the base rules to make a better game rather than the offending codexes. But the ITC is a really big deal considering it is effectively using fan rules instead of official GW rules.

Also this is one of the few times they could actually ban it and it not screw people over. No one actually has Voltan armies yet. Which is the big difference. This isn't 'your favorite army is finally good', this is 'this brand new thing *no one has* completely breaks the game.' And it's very easy to tell. And it isn't just math hammer. The rules are out and people are testing them via proxies and like. And Voltan are insane. And much like Iron Hands last edition, they are just as bad as predicated. Which would be a case where the prediction was 100% correct.

----------


## Wraith

> Remember that right now the only Votann rules and models are the ones in the Limited Edition box. I think it's pretty standard for those rules to be disallowed until the book is available to everyone. I've also seen people specifically banning 3D Printed Votann models to avoid meta-chasers rocking up with rules and models that aren't out yet.


Ah, that would be the context that I am missing. I thought it was referring to general release and that the whole thing was just "too good" and people were complaining about the codex as a whole.

In which case, fair enough, carry on.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Drasius

> That honestly surprises me, and frankly I don't see how its enforceable.
> 
> It's a real GW army, not some easily dismissed home-brew nonsense, and maybe it is a bit wonky and its being dropped into a relatively new (if you count the way that most people haven't been able to play it for the first 2 years) edition, but... so what? Who gets to say that an army is 'too good'? What makes them think they can stop people from playing the type of army they wanted? They couldn't (or at least, didn't?) do it when Tau-Dar were winning 90% of tournaments in 6th and 7th edition, so why do they get to do it now before anything has been proven?
> 
> I suppose the argument is, we've been through the Tau-Dar supremacy and we don't want it back - more to the point, we don't want the kind of meta that will arise to combat it, not just because its not fun but also because its a big shift from the current meta and people just don't have the money, time or inclination to catch up again. I would agree with all that.
> 
> At the same time, it feels... Selfish, to me? Despite the promise of preservation, there's also more than a little bit of "I'm happy with the way the game is now, but you're not allowed to play the game the way that makes you happy". 
> 
> I haven't seen a single new-codex prediction that has turned out 100% correct. At least let people play a few tournaments and see if the math-hammer stands up before making them verboten - who knows, maybe they'll even ENJOY a new challenge every once in while instead of just the same solved archetypes?


Eldar were banned in a few places in 7th. Not country-wide, but if you go back and have a look, some places actually went through with the Eldar ban that many called for. It didn't last, but it was a thing.

Also, wait and see? Rubbish, this has happened time and time again. BA and GK in late 5th, Invis in 6th, Heldrakes in 6th, Tau in 6th, 2++ rerollable Daemons in 6th, Eldar in 6th, formations in 6th, IK (to a lesser degree) in 6th, 'Crons/decurion in 7th, Kraftworlds in 7th (10 point scatterlasers on jetbike troops being THE most egregious example and the one that immediately springs to mind), Free upgrades on everything in the Mechanicum decurion in 7th, Muhreens in 7th (with 700 points of free obsec transports), the list goes on and on and on for stuff that is/was obviously broken as sh*t.

I remember refusing to fight Eldar because there was no point unpacking my stuff just to pack it away again. I recall Cheese telling us the stories about a) the new kid who thought eldar looked cool and then nobody would play with them and b) the new kid who thought eldar looked cool and proceeded to stomp 10 year vets into the ground despite never having played a game before.

I personally remember posting on here about how scat-bikes were going to be busted as **** and literally ruin the game (in the competative sense) since the only thing that could stand up to Eldar, was other Eldar. Shock, horror, what happened for the next few months? Kraftworlds 4 dayz. 8 out of the top 10 being some form of Eldar in highly competative tournaments was the norm.

From the sounds of it, Votan are more broken than either 7th Ed Kraftworlds or 8th Ed Iron Hands, so it doesn't surprise me that anyone who can read says that they're going to be so monstrously strong that it's either ban them until they get a balance pass or just lose to Votan every game.

----------


## LeSwordfish

On the plus side, those balance passes do come pretty thick and fast now. Like I said, the rate of change is offputting for me, Joe Casual, but should help with a lot of issues at the comp end.

----------


## Eldan

Meh. I often feel like the last rules I clearly remembe were about 6th edition. Sometimes I still forget that tanks don't have facings anymore. 

I just go to the shop every few months to pick up a cool monster to paint, I mostly play other games now. The few times when I play 40k, it's at my private club, with other neckbeards over 30, who have all been playing the same army composition for the last ten years.

----------


## Razgriez

> Meh. I often feel like the last rules I clearly remembe were about 6th edition. Sometimes I still forget that tanks don't have facings anymore. 
> 
> I just go to the shop every few months to pick up a cool monster to paint, I mostly play other games now. The few times when I play 40k, it's at my private club, with other neckbeards over 30, who have all been playing the same army composition for the last ten years.


This is pretty much where I'm at now with 40k. I've pretty much decided to just play for fun, use Power Level more now instead of Points cost since Points are always constantly changing to the meta/marketing team's desires. 

I don't care about or want to even spend the money to be constantly updating to the meta, having to buy additional books and the one or two model kits/units that weren't ready for production when it was time to start printing that faction's codex in the first place, when all I want to do is play to have fun. Especially when you throw in all the supply issues and GW reducing the ability to buy only the model kits I want, instead placing them in model kit bundles.

----------


## Mystic Muse

I haven't really gotten to play any of 9th edition, and have been dealing with on and off fits of depression. 

Been getting through unpainted and unbuilt backlog though, and working on fluff for my own legion/primarch (female). The way I figure it, I have over 300 Primaris Marines, and a moderate number of Firstborn. Who's going to tell me I can't make my own fluff at that point, GW? 

Because all of their fluff has been such winners.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Eldan

They specifically left two Primarchs unnamed so people could make their own legions. Who's to say one of them cant' be female. Especially now that Gaia is a thing.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

I've always been kinda bemused by the idea that it's bad form or otherwise shouldn't be done to use one of the Un-named Primarchs for your own fluff. Like... that's what they're _for._

----------


## Cheesegear

> They specifically left two Primarchs unnamed so people could make their own legions.


That was 25 years ago. Then the _Horus Heresy_ series happened and that's kind of off the table in [current year].




> Who's to say one of them cant' be female?


The _Horus Heresy_ authors.




> I've always been kinda bemused by the idea that it's bad form or otherwise shouldn't be done to use one of the Un-named Primarchs for your own fluff. Like... that's what they *were* for.


Fixed that for you.
I've said it a couple of times. Authors - especially new ones - look for stories and ideas. They usually find those stories in the plot gaps that were deliberately left open for the audience...Because then those authors eventually, officially, become the authors, if the setting lasts long enough.

Who is The Silent King, the seemingly-omniscient ruler of the Necrons who lives outside the Galaxy waiting for Orks and/or Tyranids to leave so he can come back and reclaim the Galaxy?
What do you mean? It's that guy. He's right there. Are you blind?
Oh...I guess he's just here now. Cool.

It's like the end of _Blade Runner_; Is Deckard a replicant? ...Knowing the official answer makes the story worse.
The end of _Total Recall_; Was it all actually a dream? Knowing the answer makes the story worse.
_Inception_, _Shutter Island_... Yeah. You know the drill.

In order to continue those stories (e.g; Blade Runner), you actually have to fill in those plot gaps. Effectively diminishing the value of the original story as the audience no longer _gets to_ fill in the blanks on their own.

30K/40K is like that.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

Established fluff I want to use and build around is cool. Established fluff that gets in the way of my creativity can bite me.

----------


## Cheesegear

> Established fluff I want to use and build around is cool. Established fluff that gets in the way of my creativity can bite me.


"Fracturing the community is good actually."

----------


## LeSwordfish

> Established fluff I want to use and build around is cool. Established fluff that gets in the way of my creativity can bite me.


For similar reasons, I pretty much ignore the established timeline of the Heresy. Fiveish years doesn't seem ling enough, especially not if I want to take my named OCs to events, which means they hace to be in several places at once.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

> "Fracturing the community is good actually."


Maybe the Horus Heresy writers should have thought of that, then? Can't have it both ways.

----------


## Wraith

> For similar reasons, I pretty much ignore the established timeline of the Heresy. Fiveish years doesn't seem ling enough, especially not if I want to take my named OCs to events, which means they have to be in several places at once.


According to _The First Wall_, it's 7 years between Istvaan to the Assault on the Palace, which itself takes ~months. Not that it makes the situation any better, but if no one else, Gav Thorpe is pretty clear about it.  :Small Tongue: 




> "Fracturing the community is good actually."


The Warhammer "Seriously guys, please stop looking at our Racist Space Nazis and telling us they're the good guys" Community? Yeah, screw those guys. The more we can do to widen the chasm between them and everyone else, the better.

----------


## LeSwordfish

> According to _The First Wall_, it's 7 years between Istvaan to the Assault on the Palace, which itself takes ~months. Not that it makes the situation any better, but if no one else, Gav Thorpe is pretty clear about it.


I couldn't remember the exact number but yeah, that seems pretty small for a space epic to me! There's a timeline of the Lion's attack on Barbarus in a recent White Dwarf that seems to imply he'd need to be hitting up a new planet about once a month or so! To me, that diminishes the scale of the conflict and the universe - I like a version of warhammer where it takes a week just to fly in from the mandeville point and then you're stuck knifing each other in cities for six months, that's what a planetary assault should be like, not a Star Trek style "new planet every week". 

Although that sounds like a fun version of The Great Crusade. Each week, Spock, Kirk, and the gang are met with a new Planet of Hats and a thorny ethical issue with allegorical relevance for our times, and respond by murdering everyone involved.

----------


## Cheesegear

> The Warhammer "Seriously guys, please stop looking at our Racist Space Nazis and telling us they're the good guys" Community? Yeah, screw those guys. The more we can do to widen the chasm between them and everyone else, the better.


That's not what I meant and I think you know that.

Unless that is legitimately where your head goes. In that case _Uriel Ventris_, _Gaunt's Ghosts_ and _Ciaphas Cain_, and, really, basically everything written for 40K - and 30K - ever, needs to go in the garbage because it's all bad if you're looking at it through that lens (except for maybe _Eisenhorn_, where it's pretty clear that he is, actually a bad guy). Because 40K - and 30K - is by-and-large heroic fiction. And if you're gonna say that the...Heroes...in the books, aren't _actually_ heroes because of the grimdark galaxy they live in...Then yeah. It's all bad. All of it.

Imagine thinking Ciaphas Cain is a good guy. He's a _Commissar_ who fights for the Imperium! That akshually makes him the bad guy.

If we're going down the "Heroes aren't actually Heroes" road, then the community is even more fractured than I thought.

I'm not sure that's the rabbit hole you mean to go down...Unless it is.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> That's not what I meant and I think you know that.
> 
> Unless that is legitimately where your head goes. In that case _Uriel Ventris_, _Gaunt's Ghosts_ and _Ciaphas Cain_, and, really, basically everything written for 40K - and 30K - ever, needs to go in the garbage because it's all bad if you're looking at it through that lens (except for maybe _Eisenhorn_, where it's pretty clear that he is, actually a bad guy). Because 40K - and 30K - is by-and-large heroic fiction. And if you're gonna say that the...Heroes...in the books, aren't _actually_ heroes because of the grimdark galaxy they live in...Then yeah. It's all bad. All of it.
> 
> Imagine thinking Ciaphas Cain is a good guy. He's a _Commissar_ who fights for the Imperium! That akshually makes him the bad guy.
> 
> If we're going down the "Heroes aren't actually Heroes" road, then the community is even more fractured than I thought.
> 
> I'm not sure that's the rabbit hole you mean to go down...Unless it is.


He might mean the opposite, where he feels like the Imperium should be the good guys and all the overly Grimdark evilness they commit detracts from the setting, and from the many stories where some pretty heroic people fight to save the Imperium. 

Which is a good point. One of the things I really hate is seeing the Guard routinely portrayed as using human wave tactics as their first and primary strategy. It's a stupid tactic that was the hallmark of a couple characters who were extremely ruthless and evil and for some reason that eventually became the standard, somehow. Despite the many many stories and examples of the Guard using advanced tactics, combined arms, and in general doing more than mindlessly beating their head against a wall until it finally collapses. 

I mean, I generally like the Imperium being another bad guy, but the recent codexes have been taking that too far IMO. Like having the Stormtroopers all be brainwashed for example.

----------


## Wraith

> That's not what I meant and I think you know that.


You're right, I know that. My point was more like, there are good reasons that the community is fractured. 

Sometimes its by attitude and the sort of people who are obviously wrong and that fracture that separates them is for the good of the whole. If you (that's the "Royal You", not at all indicative of CG specifically, for the record) are the sort of person who likes the Imperium because of the eagles, and the skulls and the goose-stepping, we don't want you in the hobby and being ostracised is the least of what should happen.

But there are also more mundane 'fractures'. Some people are players, others are hobbyists, or painters; some are competitive, some are casual. Some play 40k exclusively, some dabble in everything.

They don't all have to agree on their priorities. They don't all have to agree what is 'best'. This sort of divide is what promotes discussion, rather than argument, and its better that we have these amicable divides so that people like Destro can do their random stuff in peace and enjoy it without the rest of the world jumping down their throat for it.

The anti-Bigotry announcement that I kind-of-sort-of alluded to was just the most blatant, and yet unfortunately controversial, example that sprung to mind.




> Although that sounds like a fun version of The Great Crusade. Each week, Spock, Kirk, and the gang are met with a new Planet of Hats and a thorny ethical issue with allegorical relevance for our times, and respond by murdering everyone involved.


Ah, the "Janeway" miniseries.  :Small Wink:  :Small Tongue:

----------


## noob

> I couldn't remember the exact number but yeah, that seems pretty small for a space epic to me! There's a timeline of the Lion's attack on Barbarus in a recent White Dwarf that seems to imply he'd need to be hitting up a new planet about once a month or so! To me, that diminishes the scale of the conflict and the universe - I like a version of warhammer where it takes a week just to fly in from the mandeville point and then you're stuck knifing each other in cities for six months, that's what a planetary assault should be like, not a Star Trek style "new planet every week". 
> 
> Although that sounds like a fun version of The Great Crusade. Each week, Spock, Kirk, and the gang are met with a new Planet of Hats and a thorny ethical issue with allegorical relevance for our times, and respond by murdering everyone involved.


The rate at which you conquer planets depends massively on how much you are willing to destroy.
If you are willing to kill all humans on each planet to conquer them, it can be really fast to do exactly so, place a few people then go to the next planet, the travel time becomes the issue. (the real lifting is done by the colonists and for that you do not need space marines on site all the time)
If a primarch is directly here it is likely that just by being here its psychering powers alters how the world works and makes people more compliant and obedient than usual and more willing to just obey the guy who killed their leaders with a few nukes thus allowing a swift conquering without the need for complete extermination.
In warhammer, there is actual reality bending gary stues.

----------


## Eldan

It's not like the community wasn't always fractured on lore. Most of the players I knew in the early 2000s, when I was more active, read their own faction's codex and maybe had a look in the pictures of the other codices. We'd all get a basis on the Imperium, because that was everywhere, and some might pick up a novel or two (and get more knowledge of the Imperium) but apart from that? What most knew about the other factions was their entrances in the main rulebook, which models they most hated to fight against on the tabletop and a few memes.

----------


## Easy e

Fracture the community..... let the Galaxy burn! 

One of the great strengths of 40K of old, is that is was so vast.  You could make up any corner you wanted, and fit whatever you wanted to into it.  

Now, it feels so much smaller than it used to.  

Your mileage may vary of course.

----------


## Cheesegear

> One of the great strengths of 40K of old, is that is was so vast.  You could make up any corner you wanted, and fit whatever you wanted to into it.  
> 
> Now, it feels so much smaller than it used to.


Agreed. The intentionally-left Plot Gaps in the setting allowed the audience to make up whatever they wanted.

Over 25-odd years, new authors - novels and Codecies - have filled in those Plot Gaps, because they - like you - were very interested in those plot gaps. The difference between their fan-theory, and your fan-theory, is that they actually did get a job with GW/BL, and you didn't. Now their fan-theory is canon, and yours is now invalid.

Hey guys wouldn't it be cool if [this] happened?
Yeah that's in [insert novel], happened like 18 months ago by [author you've never heard of]. It didn't happen the way you want it to.

Hey guys, how cool is Vulkan. What a happy and nice guy...
Actually Vulkan is broken. He is a Perpetual, functionally immortal, has been around the entire time, and he is choosing not to get involved with anything, including his own Chapter (and the Salamanders even know this). He hates everyone and everything, and is a miserable ****. Suddenly the Salamanders hanging out with their Families so that they don't actually forget what Humanity even is and/or for, takes on a whole new meaning.
I haven't read that novel, so therefore it doesn't exist. Also from the sounds of it, I don't want to read it anyway. #NotMyVulkan #NotMyCanon. Salamanders hang out with their families because they are Good and Nice, and hanging out with your family is Fun. Not the grimdark thing you said.
Hooray, we're talking about two different things!

----------


## Eldan

Eh, you just have to go one step smaller in the scale. We still have summer campaigns, and they still all pretty much follow the plot line of "It is the year M whatever 459. We are in Subsector X356-95321, there are 12 inhabited planets. For some reason, 12 entirely different factions, all lead by minor leaders the players have made up themselves, are are here at the same time, and they all want to fight each other."

It's entirely realistic in the setting that there's still subsectors who haven't even heard of all the metaplot happening in the last 1000 years.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

Canonically, Cato Sicarius and Titus are both Captain of the Second Company, but some sources are just more canonical than others. So there's a few ways to look at it. Heck, consider Star Wars. How many people refuse to acknowledge the prequels? How many refuse to acknowledge most or all of the Skywalker trilogy? Old expanded universe vs new? How many Han Shot First jokes have there been? Since everyone is going to end up walking around with their own version of the setting in their head anyways, and getting nerds to agree on which parts of something are acceptable is basically impossible, you just have to answer one question: Is a fractured community worse than a smaller one? I say it's not. I have illustrative examples.

1) A friend of mine wanted to get into 40k because they liked the models. They picked Orks, bought some, and painted them. They like doing food-themed and otherwise eclectic art stuff, so they painted the orks pink. Come game time, they ran up against someone who said something along the lines of "Orks can't be pink," and didn't want to play against pink orks. So they didn't play any 40k, and got into Blood Bowl instead. Does this serve the community?

2) I had a conversation with someone who didn't really like the 40k RPGs, but thought it would be hilarious to try and play an AdMech microwave salesman. This went back and forth for a bit, but ultimately I came to the conclusion that, if this person were to play in one of my games, the best response would be to work with them to find a way for them to play a character that they wanted, but which would also fit the tone of the game I was trying to run. A microwave salesman might fit a more humourous game, but I tend to enjoy running games that are a little more serious. Why should that mean there is no place for the microwave salesman player in the RPG?

3) I really hate the newer Necron lore. I don't like the changes to the Necrons. A lot of people do. One of them is another good friend of mine. Neither of us is going to convince the other that our preferred version of the Necron lore is better, and neither of us has a problem with ignoring things we don't like. Both of us have been cheerfully ignoring the existence of Primaris marines as a concept since their inception. Why does any of this mean we can't have a conversation about the lore, or more specifically, a conversation about the parts of it we disagree on?

Going back to the original post, the two missing Primarchs were there for people to make their own stuff. Some people came along, and they happened to work for GW writing Black Library fiction, and they happened to fill those gaps. Great. I don't care. Go ahead and use one of those primarchs if you want, and anyone who tells you that you can't is wrong.

----------


## LCP

> Going back to the original post, the two missing Primarchs were there for people to make their own stuff. Some people came along, and they happened to work for GW writing Black Library fiction, and they happened to fill those gaps. Great. I don't care. Go ahead and use one of those primarchs if you want, and anyone who tells you that you can't is wrong.


This. It's mad to me that anyone would look at someone's tabletop army and declare that the way that army interprets the lore is 'splitting the community'. In an RPG, maybe, sometimes, having a highly consistent fictional world matters for the enjoyment of the game. In a tabletop wargame? If someone has a problem with playing against someone else's army just because they've used their creativity in modelling or painting it in a way that doesn't fit their perception of the lore, then that person is clearly 100% of the problem.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

They didn't fill in the missing primarchs to my knowledge; we still don't have names, characteristics, or ultimate fates.  The only filling in they did was have them referred to by male pronouns, which, let's be honest, was always going to be the answer if you made GW give it to you.  I understand why that's an issue for a lot of Marine army concepts (how could anyone not?) but it's unfortunately not a surprise.  And since Malcador mind-wiped everyone involved anyway, that could just be read as yet another of his deceptions.

----------


## Grim Portent

This is a setting that has occasionally denied the very concept of causality, is filled with dimensional rifts, shapeshifting dopplegangers, psychic parasites, eldritch gods and laboratory abominations.

It's like Star Trek except everyone is sad and angry rather than happy and optimistic. Anything fits, story of the week is fine, 'gods' are real and deserve a poke in the eye, FTL travel speeds are determined by plot, and weird ass nonsense is usually the answer to problems.

It is entirely plausible that someone can meet and fight themself, either an illusion, or an evil shapeshifter, or a version ripped from an alternate timeline by a temporal rift, weird army ideas fit in just fine. Gatekeeping what is an is not an appropriate army is kind of silly at best. Even the infamous Hello Kitty marines aren't actually implausible things to show up. Just slap a more creepy description on them and they'd fit right in.

----------


## Cheesegear

> They didn't fill in the missing primarchs to my knowledge; we still don't have names, characteristics, or ultimate fates.


They are both referred to as 'brothers', multiple times.
The Emperor Himself chewed at least one of them out, in public.
The Primarchs - even the Traitor ones - are deeply ashamed and/or regretful of them both. Even mentioning their names out loud tempts the wrath of the Emperor, and generally invokes sadness in everyone involved.

One of their Legions likely suffered from something _worse_ than The Red Thirst, and it's likely that their deletion from history involved trying to fix it, as that's given as one of the reasons why Sangunius never tries to fix The Red Thirst, and it's also the reason that Sanguinius attempts to keep The Red Thirst secret from Dad. Likely their gene-seed had a catastrophic failure inbuilt into it, that the Emperor saw unfit, and trying to fix it, was an even worse idea.

One of them overstepped their authority.

Leman Russ alludes to executing one of them himself. As Magnus is assumed to be the another time he's been ordered to do this, as Dorn wont do it*. One of the reasons why Leman Russ didn't question the the extremely questionable order to go fight Magnus, was largely because it wasn't the first time.
*And then Dorn loses his heart(s). Figuratively and literally. After fighting Curze and Alpharius. After Dorn has no more heart, that's when he decides fighting his brothers might be alright.

Corax never knew about one of them, he was deleted while the Emperor was still looking for the last one. Corax is marked as 19. The Emperor tells him he only has seventeen brothers...How can he be #19 if there's only 18 max? The Emperor scowls. Likely the first one was likely already scheduled for the chopping block before the Emperor was even finished finding his Sons.

Corax is found in 922.M30.

The second brother was the last Primarch found. Alpharius' origin kind of changing to umm akshually he was the _first_ Primarch found.

The two Primarchs are heavily implied to be removed in 965.M30 and 969.M30, respectively. Space Wolves are 'involved' both times. In any case, in this version, the Legions are deleted after the sacking of Monarchia. Before the Heresy had even officially started, and around the time Lorgar lands on Cadia. It's unclear how this gels with the fact that Corax literally never heard of one of them.

One of them is heavily implied to be dead, at Russ' hand. Personal note: My headcanon is that this is the event that at least nine Primarchs were there for. The Emperor chewed out the Primarch and ordered Russ to do the execution; As seven brothers watched, horrified.
The other is lightly implied to have run away, lost in space somewhere between Galaxies because he couldn't stay in the Milky Way. One of my friends had a theory that one of the Primarchs landed on a Necron Tomb World, and grew up to become The Silent King, and his crime was that...Well, Necrons. And the Emperor was having none of it. And The Silent King ran to the place between Galaxies to wait...Of course, myth busted.

Both of their individual Legions are heavily implied to have been absorbed by the Ultramarines.

And then my personal take; Both of them had to be worse than Horus and the other Traitors. At least Horus still gets a name - and he's basically The Worst.


It's not a case of 'I don't have to read that novel...'
It's a case of the _Horus Heresy_ and _Primarchs_ series - and accompanying gamebooks - feature multiple lines of dialogue in over 10 different books, that when you put them all together, you can kind of start painting of vague picture of who they were and what they may have done, and when. And you're going to ignore all of it? Okay. I guess that's something you can do.

----------


## LeSwordfish

> And you're going to ignore all of it?


yes 10characters

----------


## Fergie0044

Nice summary Cheese, I'd forgotten some of that. But for this...




> Both of their individual Legions are heavily implied to have been absorbed by the Ultramarines.


Hasn't ADB come out and said that this isn't actually true and merely an in-universe rumour that the word bearers believe? Or was there there more to this than what we read in The First Heretic?

----------


## LCP

I would like to know, just for the sake of argument, whether if somebody put e.g. a Santa-Claus themed Ork army on the table, whether that would also provoke an essay-length post trawling through 50 books of pulp sci-fi to establish whether Orks had a concept of Christmas.

_um are we going to just IGNORE that in Ghazkull: Prophet of Da Waaagh it's clearly the Red Grot who leaves presents for da boyz? ok. you can do that, I guess._  :Small Annoyed:

----------


## Wraith

> They didn't fill in the missing primarchs to my knowledge; we still don't have names, characteristics, or ultimate fates.


I can probably offer an answer to that last one. The missing Primarchs are numbers 2 and 11 - take a look at Malcador's throne. Have a really good, hard look at the armrests.  :Small Tongue: 

Yes, yes, I know... Art =/= Canon. Except when it does, obviously.




> Hasn't ADB come out and said that this isn't actually true and merely an in-universe rumour that the word bearers believe? Or was there there more to this than what we read in The First Heretic?


He has, indeed. He's also said that the Horus Heresy books are all _interpretations_ of what happened during the Heresy, and that there are plot holes and continuity errors because the stories are just what is known by the characters in them. If that character doesn't know what actually happened, they could be telling the story 'wrong' and a different version would be told by someone else.

In practice it's a hand-wave to explain why book 16 by one author might contradict book 47 by another author, who hasn't had the time or inclination to read and memorise 46 other books for context and clarity. In principle, it intentionally adds to the Age of Mythology feel of the Heresy - its so big and incredibly complicated that only one person knows what actually went down, and he hasn't talked for 10,000 years.

So everything Cheesegear said about the missing Primarchs is 'true', in so far as that is what has been written in the books. It's also 'false', because its reported by people who don't know what happened, or only saw part of it from their own limited perspective. 

I, for example, am perfectly fine with ignoring anything recounted by Leman Russ before the events of _The Primarchs: Leman Russ_, because that's the book where he admits that he was an ******* and in the wrong about so, so many things and that he regrets his involvement in a bunch of events that shouldn't have happened. Anything said before that is his pig-headed bravado and narrow perspective talking.




> I would like to know, just for the sake of argument, whether if somebody put e.g. a Santa-Claus themed Ork army on the table, whether that would also provoke an essay-length post trawling through 50 books of pulp sci-fi to establish whether Orks had a concept of Christmas.


Of course Orks have Christmas - they're Portuguese.

Grots don't, though, because they're Bolsheviks.  :Small Wink:  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Lord Raziere

Don't be silly.

we google for that instead, much faster. :P

But seriously? Orks wouldn't have a concept of Christmas, but don't let stop you from have a santa-claus themed ork army or anything, because orks are nuts and might go with the theme because....they just like the look of it. maybe they stumbled across some weird artifact that lets them view the distant past of Terra through the warp, see Christmas being celebrated and are like "Datz reel pretty aye" and decide to go with the theme no not knowing/getting what christmas is about AT ALL and not caring, throwing bombs designed as ornament balls shouting "HERE'S YER PRESENTZ HUMMIES!" thinking that giving presents are just another form of warfare somehow, the warboss wearing the santa hat and coat because "Cause it's clearly fer da biggest an' strongest ya grot, didn't ya see dat big hummie commandin' all da hummie gretchinz to make bombs an' choppas an' shootas fer 'im?"

like they don't need to understand, and its in fact funnier that they misinterpret it completely to think its some human form of celebrating warfare like they do. because it'd be perfectly warhammer 40,000 for something as good-natured and wholesome as Christmas to completely misinterpreted and warped into a method of warfare by stupid aliens who then use it on humans who have long forgotten the holiday and now see what the orkz are doing as just another form of weird xeno madness they don't understand and are required by law both temporal and divine to hate and destroy, not knowing they're fighting against destroying things humans once looked to as hopeful and joyous. just the kind of twisted and ironic absurdity that the setting runs on.

----------


## Eldan

> yes 10characters


I'm with you on that. But I also just generally ignore anything where I detect the word Primarch when scanning over it, I just _extremely_ don't care about the Primarchs.

----------


## Cheesegear

> I would like to know, just for the sake of argument, whether if somebody put e.g. a Santa-Claus themed Ork army on the table, whether that would also provoke an essay-length post trawling through 50 books of pulp sci-fi to establish whether Orks had a concept of Christmas.


Who gives a ****? Play the game.

Now, if you said;

This is my hoard of Boyz from 8th Ed. and I'm going to be using those rules and yes I know it's 9th Ed. now and yes I know 9th Ed. exists and everyone is playing that, but I'm gonna play with 8th Ed. rules because I'm just ignoring whatever I want. You can play with your 9th Ed. rules, but against me I get to use my 8th Ed. rules because I just don't like 9th Ed. rules. That's right. I'm refusing to acknowledge 9th Ed. exists, even if you do. And if you want to play 9th Ed., I'm going to say that you're ruining my fun and you are a bad person, because I want to play 8th Ed., not 9th Ed.

That's a big problem.

The second problem is;

Hey, would you like to read my three-page backstory about Christmas-themed Orks that breaks canon in multiple areas?

Not really. I'm not saying you can't write it. I'm just saying I wont read it...And if you make me read it, I'm going to have a lot of questions about the parts where you break canon that you probably wont be able to answer.

----------


## LCP

Those would definitely be problems, if anyone in the thread had expressed anything remotely like that. I'm not sure where you got the impression anyone did though. They seem more like... paranoid fantasies of being harassed by conveniently idiotic foils.

Warboss Sandy Klawz and the Lost Primarch Marina are equally 'non-canon'. No-one is going to Clockwork Orange you into sitting down and reading their fan-fiction in either case. So why is only one 'splitting the community'?

Even putting aside the idea of what kind of cartoon weirdo would 'make you read' their army's backstory...




> And if you make me read it, I'm going to have a lot of questions about the parts where you break canon that you probably wont be able to answer.


There is only one question, and you already got the most complete answer possible.




> Originally Posted by Cheesegear
> 
> And you're going to ignore all of it?
> 
> 
> yes

----------


## Cheesegear

> Those would definitely be problems, if anyone in the thread had expressed anything remotely like that.


I don't like current fluff.
I am ignoring current fluff.
Anyone who doesn't like my story [that ignores current fluff] must be a 'bad person' and I don't care what they have to say anyway.

Absolutely was said. To which I responded.

You then gave a _gaming_ example, to which I responded:

I don't like current rules.
I'll just ignore current rules.
Anyone who does like current rules is harming my fun 'cause I can't play the game I want to play.

Seems a fair comparison.

----------


## Eldan

> Hey, would you like to read my three-page backstory about Christmas-themed Orks that breaks canon in multiple areas?
> 
> Not really. I'm not saying you can't write it. I'm just saying I wont read it...And if you make me read it, I'm going to have a lot of questions about the parts where you break canon that you probably wont be able to answer.


I mean, that would be a problem for me. Not that I'm forcing you to read anything, but I usually have a ten minute chat with my opponent before the game (often while setting up)  where we explain our armies (and their backstories), point out who our commanders are (and their backstories),  and any cool and unusual models we have (and their backstories). Then we hash out where and why we are fighting. If my opponent says "I don't care, let's just play", it's probably not going to be a game I want to be in.

Edit: also using model rules from older editions is often completely fine in the club I usually go to, if they are halfway compatible. I.e. bringing your fifth edition codex to a sixth edition game, even if you got an update, because you didn't like that update. Or just saying "I'm playing named character X, but he didn't get rules in this edition, so I'm using his rules from last edition." Perfectly fine.

----------


## LCP

> Anyone who doesn't like my story [that ignores current fluff] must be a 'bad person' and I don't care what they have to say anyway.
> 
> Absolutely was said. To which I responded.


Nobody on the last page called anyone a bad person. I'm pretty sure if you want to quote whatever it was that you interpreted as an attack you will be able to get the same user who posted it to confirm.

People expressed critical opinions of the _fiction_ they wanted/were choosing to ignore. If you feel so tied to that fiction that you take a criticism of it as a criticism of you... that's your lookout. My favourite film is Jurassic Park, but I don't mind if other people don't like it. 




> You then gave a _gaming_ example, to which I responded:
> 
> I don't like current rules.
> I'll just ignore current rules.
> Anyone who does like current rules is harming my fun 'cause I can't play the game I want to play.
> 
> Seems a fair comparison.


It's a mad comparison. You know it's mad, please don't waste mine or others' time pretending you don't.

----------


## Eldan

It's not that mad a comparison. We do that all the time. We even allow variatn equipment and light homebrew. (I.e. I have a Skaven assassin model with two pistols, because the model is awesome, then that model is going to have two pistols even if that's not allowed in the rules, and we're going to agree on a point value we both think is fair.)

----------


## LCP

But you agree on your variations. You don't turn up with the expectation of unilaterally playing by different rules.

----------


## Eldan

Oh, yeah, sure. Hence the pre-game discussion. And the shop owner or any mutually agreeable resident neckbeard from the painting table for arbitration, if necessary.

----------


## Cheesegear

> But you agree on your variations. You don't turn up with the expectation of unilaterally playing by different rules.


Can we talk about Alpharius?
He's dead. Dorn killed him. There's nothing to talk about.
No in my variation it was _another_ trick by Alpharius and he's still alive.
I'm pretty sure that undercuts the drama, and kind of renders the scene meaningless if Dorn didn't actually _do_ anything. That's dumb.
No but I want Alpharius alive, so he is. Alpha Legion are my favourite.
But that's not what happened.
I said. *Alpharius is my favourite*.
Okay, well I can't help you with your weird fanfic.
Why are you ruining this for me!?
You know Omegon? Is that who you're talking about? He's still around. And I guess he's Alpharius, right?
No, that was a stupid idea. I don't like that idea. There's only one Alpharius, and always was.
Okay. You don't want to talk about Alpharius. You want to talk about your made-up version that actually doesn't exist. I can't help you.
You have ruined my fun and I'm gonna tell everyone you're a big poopy head who likes poop.

That's basically a conversation that's happened. Now replace [Alpharius doing something he didn't do], with anything you want.

----------


## Easy e

> Can we talk about Alpharius?
> He's dead. Dorn killed him. There's nothing to talk about.
> No in my variation it was _another_ trick by Alpharius and he's still alive.
> I'm pretty sure that undercuts the drama, and kind of renders the scene meaningless if Dorn didn't actually _do_ anything. That's dumb.
> No but I want Alpharius alive, so he is. Alpha Legion are my favourite.
> But that's not what happened.
> I said. *Alpharius is my favourite*.
> Okay, well I can't help you with your weird fanfic.
> Why are you ruining this for me!?
> ...


Well, you forgot where NONE of this exists so ultimately, does not matter in the slightest.

----------


## Lord Torath

I think Cheesegear's position (and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong) is:

You want to play with an army that completely violates canon?  As long as we use the same rules, Great!  Let's play!

You want to talk about your non-canon army's background?  Well, it doesn't fit with canon, but you do you.  But don't expect me to try to help you fit it into existing canon.


I (Lord Torath) personally prefer to stick with my 2E Canon.  Where Leman Russ both mutters about his life's breath being nearly spent, and also charges off into obscurity to Fight Chaos!  
 :Biggrin:

----------


## Artanis

> So everything Cheesegear said about the missing Primarchs is 'true', in so far as that is what has been written in the books. It's also 'false', because its reported by people who don't know what happened, or only saw part of it from their own limited perspective.


How's that quote go? "Everything is canon, not everything is correct", or something along those lines  :Small Smile:

----------


## Lord Raziere

> How's that quote go? "Everything is canon, not everything is correct", or something along those lines


Everything is canon, not everything is true, yes.

I highly doubt for example that Arbites Judges _actually_ spends centuries deliberating a trial and pouring over contradictory tomes of information to find a verdict when their descendants are now alive. No one has that kind of time. Not even even the dumbest person alive, because they'd be too impatient and have other things to do. 

Far more more logical to assume that the Arbites Judges are jerks who simply put the case being considered into a section labeled "delayed punishment" then wait. Then they can just pull one of the files out from this section, check to see if the criminal has grown into a bunch of descendants then simply declare they're all sent to the Penal legions to increase imperial guard recruitment when needed. this isn't actually legal, but any arbites who thinks the Imperium operates on actual justice or any law and order beyond the barbarism of force is probably one of the naive ones who just got recruited.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Speaking of novels, Humble Bundle has a 40k audiobook bundle going on right now.  Don't forget to adjust the donation ratio if you care about the charity; GW is taking a much larger proportion of the default than normal.  (They wanted only $1.25 of my $25 to go to the charity.)

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Fastest nerf hammer in Warhammer history?

----------


## Blackhawk748

> Fastest nerf hammer in Warhammer history?


Probably. And probably because they were getting straight up banned at a ton of tournaments.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

The biggest problem I see with this nerf is that now there won't be any cheap ones on ebay afterwards because they did it too fast.

----------


## Cheesegear

> Well, you forgot where NONE of this exists so ultimately, does not matter in the slightest.


I know it's in blue. But it's not wrong. It is, after all, a story about toy soldiers.




> I think Cheesegear's position (and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong) is:
> 
> You want to play with an army that completely violates canon?  As long as we use the same rules, Great!  Let's play!
> 
> You want to talk about your non-canon army's background?  Well, it doesn't fit with canon, but you do you.  But don't expect me to try to help you fit it into existing canon.


Both of those are true. But not actually my point:
LCP's hypothetical about showing up to the table to play a game with a "non-canon" conversions isn't actually relevant and created a different conversation, which nobody with a functioning brain would actually challenge.

My point is that talking about the fluff, whilst also not taking account - or refusing to, even - that certain fluff exists, that fluff has changed, that fluff has been expanded upon, is the same as showing up to a 9th Ed. game whilst under the impression that your 7th Ed. army is still good and doesn't need to change.

I know I haven't kept up with 9th Ed., and I skipped the entirety of 8th Ed...But I can still put Sammael in a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry, right? And it will win games?

Uhh...You haven't been paying attention...Like, literally at all, have you? You're about to be real sad/mad.

Let's talk about the Horus Heresy. P.S; I stopped reading at _Mechanicum_.

Oh...Oh okay. In 2022? Uhh...Where do we even start...




> Everything is canon, not everything is true, yes.


Ffffff...Nothing is anything; Anything is Anything. Gav Thorpe said that saying that, is disrespectful.

I should actually find what he said and respond to it. It's really good.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Ffffff...Nothing is anything; Anything is Anything. Gav Thorpe said that saying that, is disrespectful.
> 
> I should actually find what he said and respond to it. It's really good.


Who the warp is Gav Thorpe? *looks him up*.....oh

nah, screw that guy, don't care what he says. not with his history of writing stuff. not as bad as some but I'm not giving him credit for jumping over low bars.

like unless this is a "snark at the stupid thing" we're doing together with mutual acknowledgement that he is being stupid instead of a rebuttal to me? not interested. because I'm not sure what your communicating here. cause if there is no common ground, we have nothing to say to each other in this particular conversation no hate or dislike of you, I just don't want to drag this out and cause unnecessary mental/social pain for both of us. cause you seem to be communicating "lets snark at stupid thing" I think but I might be wrong?

----------


## Cheesegear

> cause if there is no common ground, we have nothing to say to each other in this particular conversation


Perfect. You've hit the nail on the head. You've proved my point.

When the community doesn't have anything in common because they can't even agree on _text in a book_, there is no community at all. Everyone is doing their own thing and nobody is a cohesive group. Something, something, real-world example.

See also; _"Fracturing the community is a bad thing."_

----------


## LeSwordfish

I'm just imagining going to my real group of friends in real life and saying "sorry folks, you guys think the second primarch is a deliberate gap to use for creativity and i think they have a more deliberate plan than that for him, our differences are irreconcilable, goodbye forever".

----------


## Mystic Muse

> I'm just imagining going to my real group of friends in real life and saying "sorry folks, you guys think the second primarch is a deliberate gap to use for creativity and i think they have a more deliberate plan than that for him, our differences are irreconcilable, goodbye forever".


Or me no longer playing Star Wars Saga with my Saturday group because we like different Star Wars canon.

----------


## LCP

I really can't believe that anyone could fail to understand the difference between the need for consensus on rules and the need for consensus on fluff.

Coming up with fanfiction about the 40K universe, or deciding there are bits of it you don't like, is exactly on par with putting green stuff santa hats on your orks. It has absolutely zero impact on your being able to play the game. If you don't like someone else's take on the story, so what? It does you exactly as little harm as if you don't like their converted battlewagon full of Xmas presents. In your own words, Cheesegear, who the **** cares? Play the game.

It's just impossible to be factually wrong about a fictional world. You can be factually wrong about *what an author wrote*, but if you reduce all discussion of the shared fictional world you enjoy to that question, then what is the point of this 'community' you're supposedly binding together? Just to sit around in a circle answering 'true' or 'false' to questions about one publisher's back catalogue?

To me, this is a creative hobby first and foremost. If you just want to consume fiction, join a book club. Warhammer is about modelling and painting your own miniatures, and coming up with your own stories, and *seeing other players' creativity does way more to draw me into a community* than knowing that we've read the same books. The 'canon' will be the same the next time you look at it, but Alice's new conversion or Bob's new story is a reason to come back to the club. Unless any of your group have BL publishing contracts, then the interpretations they come up with will of course have *at most* 0 explicit support in the 'canon', and quite likely will find something in the ~30 year backlog of the setting that contradicts them (in exactly the same way that GW's own publications contradict themselves). Thankfully, I can hold two conflicting stories about a fictional world in my head without worrying that the 'real' characters will be upset, so I understand that that *doesn't matter at all.*

There is only one context in which the failure to understand any of this super basic stuff makes sense to me, and that's if the primary enjoyment you get from the hobby (or maybe just life in general) is in telling people that they're wrong.

----------


## Wraith

> When the community doesn't have anything in common because they can't even agree on _text in a book_, there is no community at all. Everyone is doing their own thing and nobody is a cohesive group. Something, something, real-world example.
> 
> See also; _"Fracturing the community is a bad thing."_


At which point, I wonder, does 'fracturing the community' instead become 'there is more than one community'?

Because the issue seems to be more along the lines of, here are two different ways of approaching the subject; Some who think that what is written in the book matters and should be... 'respected'? As an entity or an inherent thing of value, in and of itself?

And some who think its just a momentary entertainment, as disposable and malleable as an old, dog-eared copy of White Dwarf. Hang onto it if you like, throw it in the bin when you're done consuming it.

Both are correct if that is how you prefer to consume the media. Threatening some kind of 'conflict' (philosophical, rather than physical, of course) between the two sounds less like an actual 'thing' and more like gatekeeping or an excuse for one group to Other another for... reasons? Probably related to making the perpetrators feel special about themselves rather than whether or not its healthy for 'the community'.




> I really can't believe that anyone could fail to understand the difference between the need for consensus on rules and the need for consensus on fluff.


Yeah, I don't know how we got to this point. The difference between "canon and homebrew can coexist and you're not obliged to either" seems so far removed from "you can't play 8th edition rules in a 9th edition game without everyone agreeing to it" that I think we hit a quantum tangent somewhere.

'Rules' is the social contract that all must reach consensus in order to participate - even if its understood to be only temporarily in the case of an experimental/homebrew/'just for fun' army list. 'Story' happens in my head and there's not a damn thing any of you can do about it.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## LeSwordfish

I mean to give a basic example, I write notable achievements and kills for each of my models down on a sticker under their bases. I'm especially proud of my Phalanx Sargeant who has now punched two enemy Praetors to death. Do the owners of those Praetors hold it as "canon" that they got walloped to death by a lowly sargeant? Of course not! That doesn't mean I can't.

----------


## LCP

> Because the issue seems to be more along the lines of, here are two different ways of approaching the subject; Some who think that what is written in the book matters and should be... 'respected'? As an entity or an inherent thing of value, in and of itself?
> 
> And some who think its just a momentary entertainment, as disposable and malleable as an old, dog-eared copy of White Dwarf. Hang onto it if you like, throw it in the bin when you're done consuming it.


You're being overly charitable in both-sidesing it here. It's not about symbolic respect for books or anything like that. There is no sane, sensible argument behind saying "because these stories about a fictional world were written by people who received payslips from the same corporation*, they are inherently _more true_ than those written by others". And 'more true' *is* the claim, not 'better written' - because everyone will acknowledge that there are some real stinkers that get published with the official branding on the cover.

Like I said right at the start, there is a case for 'we have to agree on the fictional facts' (within a defined scope) if you want to play an RPG together, or write a work of collaborative fiction. But to play a wargame? Or to hang out painting miniatures? Or just to chat about books you did or didn't enjoy? That's proper pants-on-your-head, pencils-up-your-nostrils stuff.

My personal take (which is not based on a whole ton of historical research, so take it with as much salt as required) is that 'canon' in this context is a concept that was invented purely to appease overly-literal fans. When someone starts asking questions about magic xylophones in your franchise you slap a 'non-canon' sticker on something and the noise stops. I know Star Wars at one point had an official designation for this; I think it's to GW's credit that they've always treated their fans with a bit more maturity and steered clear.




> Both are correct if that is how you prefer to consume the media. Threatening some kind of 'conflict' (philosophical, rather than physical, of course) between the two sounds less like an actual 'thing' and more like gatekeeping or an excuse for one group to Other another for... reasons? Probably related to making the perpetrators feel special about themselves rather than whether or not its healthy for 'the community'.


Again, it doesn't go both ways. Pretty much by definition, people who don't care about following one 'official' storyline don't care what stories you prefer. The gatekeeping problem is strictly one-way from those who want to set themselves up as the 'canon' police (despite GW's own repeated statements that even _they_ don't care).


*or different corporations who purchased each other, just as long as it's only One True Corporation at a time...

----------


## Blackhawk748

> My personal take (which is not based on a whole ton of historical research, so take it with as much salt as required) is that 'canon' in this context is a concept that was invented purely to appease overly-literal fans. When someone starts asking questions about magic xylophones in your franchise you slap a 'non-canon' sticker on something and the noise stops. I know Star Wars at one point had an official designation for this; I think it's to GW's credit that they've always treated their fans with a bit more maturity and steered clear.


...ok, no. Canon is the baseline by which a fictional world operates. It is the facts, events, people and places that are confirmed to exist in it and are the baseline by which other pieces of fiction can be added to it. It wasn't "created to appease overly literal fans" the very act of being consistent with your story telling has created it because you are being consistent with World Building and the timeline.

If you don't have a consistent canon you just have a pile of random stories that don't intersect (or rarely do) and that nothing from one piece of fiction you made has any impact on another. No events matter, none of the people matter outside of their own stories. And that's fine, unless you want to right more than a handful of stories or have any sort of consistency between them. The entire reason Star Wars, 40k and Star Trek have lasted literal decades is because they have a solid Canonical Foundation to work upon. A new person can come in and be on the same page as the 60 year old that has been here since day 1, because everyone is working from the same bundle of facts. If you don't have that, then nothing in the overall world matters. It has no weight. It has no cost. It has no meaning.

So why would you waste your time investing in such a large setting if it has as much weight as a 1 of book someone else wrote?

Also Star Wars had Tiers of Canonicity and that was to smooth out the issues that arose from the weirder things that got published. Because there was a bunch of very dumb things that made no sense when added to the movies.

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## LCP

> If you don't have a consistent canon you just have a pile of random stories that don't intersect (or rarely do) and that nothing from one piece of fiction you made has any impact on another. No events matter, none of the people matter outside of their own stories. And that's fine, unless you want to right more than a handful of stories or have any sort of consistency between them.


That's exactly what I said in the paragraph above the one you quoted. This stuff matters if you're writing collaboratively (and already had a name in that context, which is 'keeping notes'). But the storytelling that's being described here as 'fracturing the community' is not a collaborative project, it's purely people exercising their own creativity in their own time. We're talking about someone who has no part in writing a story intervening to tell the storyteller that they've made a factual mistake about the fictional world _they're_ describing.




> The entire reason Star Wars, 40k and Star Trek have lasted literal decades


Gosh, _decades_? That must be the gold standard then. I mean, imagine if there were stories that got picked up and retold by different people centuries or millennia after they were first written, and each retelling and spin-off made editorial changes to the characters and the events that were often incompatible with other versions, but still people would recognise them as the same story and read them (or watch them or listen to them) anyway. I mean that would be mad, wouldn't it. Like imagine if someone did a version of Hamlet where he was a lion, everyone knows he's a Danish man.

There's a blurring of the lines here between intellectual property (which is there to protect the financial interests of the writer) and the desire for consistency (which is there purely to satisfy the reader). Wanting an 'official' stamp on your story is confusing the first for the second, and doesn't actually guarantee consistency in any meaningful way either. I'm sure this thread could play a fun game of identifying which BL books each user would say is most in need of ignoring.

----------


## Wraith

> You're being overly charitable in both-sidesing it here.


I was trying not to make it sound like I was accusing Cheesegear of being one of "those guys" by responding to him with references to gatekeepers, etc. I truly don't believe he is, but this is the internet - more than once recently I've been accused of being heavy handed in my opinions, and given that we're talking about divisions in a fandom the last thing I wanted was for it to start looking like surreptitious insulting.

For the benefit of those in the cheap seats: Internet weirdos who piss and moan about other people 'not doing it right' are invited to enjoy their dark little corner all alone, where no one else has to visit while we're all having fun doing other stuff. They're not even to be considered, let alone negotiated with.  :Small Smile: 




> ...ok, no. Canon is the baseline by which a fictional world operates. It is the facts, events, people and places that are confirmed to exist in it and are the baseline by which other pieces of fiction can be added to it. It wasn't "created to appease overly literal fans" the very act of being consistent with your story telling has created it because you are being consistent with World Building and the timeline.


This ties in to what I said about Cheesegear above.

He was right - canon is a list of things that were written, and arguing "no they didn't" is as easily dismissed as opening a book and pointing to it on a page.

But my point is, that only matters if we agree that we want it to. 
Canon has no authority, except when a bunch of us internet weirdos are trying to one-up each other a collaborative group of acquaintances on a forum are recounting the most-commonly recognised narrative. What you choose to do with that narrative is entirely outside of everyone else' scope, and getting cross with each other about that holds about as much importance as whether or not you liking the colour of the shirt I'm wearing today does on whether or not I'm going to wear it anyway.

Which is zero, by the way. I don't care if no one else remembers 8-Bit Theatre from 2006, it makes me happy.  :Small Big Grin:  :Small Wink:

----------


## Destro_Yersul

> ...ok, no. Canon is the baseline by which a fictional world operates. It is the facts, events, people and places that are confirmed to exist in it and are the baseline by which other pieces of fiction can be added to it. It wasn't "created to appease overly literal fans" the very act of being consistent with your story telling has created it because you are being consistent with World Building and the timeline.


For personal interest, I went and checked, and while I was unable to verify this, apparently the first use of the term in this sort of context was in reference to Sherlock Holmes. It referred to the stories specifically written by Arthur Conan Doyle, while all other authors using the character are 'non-canon.' If true, this means that originally, it wasn't about things which are confirmed to exist at all, it was about who had written them (Which makes sense, given the history of the word itself, no more on that here.) Following that logic, Frank Herbert's Dune is canon, while everything Brian Herbert did is not. Which I am ok with, incidentally. 

This would get a little muddled though when you run into things like Star Trek, which has had numerous writers through its history, or 40k, which is an ascended tabletop game with multiple creators. Star Trek was created by just one person - Gene Rodenberry - but plenty of Star Trek that has been made without his input is still considered canon.

----------


## Easy e

I will say, Warhammer 40K (and D&D, Battletech, and a few others) greatest achievements as games is that they have given their fans a lot of things to talk about outside of playing the game.  Therefore, the draw is more than just the games themselves, but the list building, the fluff, creating your own world niche, the modelling techniques etc.  That is what seems to drive its popularity as a "hobby" more than any tabletop actions. 

People seem to talk about "the hobby" in a 1 hour played to 10 hours talking/thinking about it ratio.

----------


## Dragonus45

> For the benefit of those in the cheap seats: Internet weirdos who piss and moan about other people 'not doing it right' are invited to enjoy their dark little corner all alone, where no one else has to visit while we're all having fun doing other stuff. They're not even to be considered, let alone negotiated with.


Interesting. So when you refer to the people who do pay attention the baseline cannon of the stories as written and prefer to stay within the realm of it's possibility as 


> "a bunch of us internet weirdos are trying to one-up each other"


 you aren't basically telling a wide swath of the player base they are 'not doing it right'? At the least you certainly seem dismissive of them, and anyone else who is interacting with the hobby differently then from how you want them too. Personally I say go for it when it comes to ignoring stuff from a series that you don't like, for the most part I think of cannon as a lie told to us by people terrified of losing the income they gain from being in control of our modern storytelling and mythology long after the original minds who created the worlds involved are gone from the picture. Personally I would say that The Last Jedi never happened, The End Times were bad a dream I had after eating too much pizza before bed, Age of Sigmar is a fun bit of fanfiction some friends of mine like, and Primaris Marines are just firstborn marines with a bigger model and more lore accurate rules, the ending of the Zeta Gundam compellation movies sucked and the series' was better so I just tell people to watch the end of the series and use it's ending instead, I could go on! But that doesn't give someone a moral high ground versus the people who do pay attention to that kind of thing or follow it more closely.

----------


## LeSwordfish

In addition, correct me if I'm wrong but Star Wars and Star Trek both at some point excised huge sections of their canon - 100% in the case of the latter, right? So clearly the publishers of said canon are happy to discard it when needed. Comics ditch their canon all the time, whereas the MCU is absolutely crippled by adhering to it in such a way that every new film requires homework to understand.

I like the style of canon that the Fast and Furious films use (and apparently also Eastenders): if it's canon to this work, it'll be brought up in this work. If not, don't worry about it. Seems like a much healthier standard to apply to media than to allow them to simply nod at "canon" that a viewer is meant to understand. There's sensible reasons Darth Maul is in Solo, in the canon, but believe you me I'm not watching Rebels just to find out what they are. Make me care about something here and now, in this book/film/episode, or don't include it.

----------


## Wraith

> Interesting. So when you refer to the people who do pay attention the baseline cannon of the stories as written and prefer to stay within the realm of it's possibility as  you aren't basically telling a wide swath of the player base they are 'not doing it right'? At the least you certainly seem dismissive of them, and anyone else who is interacting with the hobby differently then from how you want them too.


If that's what I had been doing, then yes I would probably agree with you. However, I never said that enjoying the canon was a bad thing, or not a legitimate way to be a part of the hobby, or even that I didn't take part myself - I had hoped that the crossed out phrase would have been understood as hypocritical humour. Frankly, if anyone is guilty of launching into storytime about 'what it says in the book' then I'm probably the most repeated offender in the GitP 40k threads.  :Small Smile: 

I don't think that's the same, however, as telling people they're "not allowed" to do something different or that they're "wrong" to enjoy the game in a different way to me, which is the example that has been given above. That's the kind of person I'm disparaging - not the people who celebrate the game differently to me, but those who aren't so much interested in the game as they are in appearing to be 'the elite of the community'. That isn't celebrating the game in their way, that's trying to stop me from celebrating it in my way, y'know? It's sort-of-kind-of related, but approached from the opposite side.

Like, I'll happily tell you what it says in the books and what implications for that are in other areas of the stories. If you then tell me 'that's dumb and I hate it', the difference is... I'll probably agree with you, rather than call you names and say you don't deserve to be in the community, or aren't "as good" as another fan of the same thing.

That's like, being intolerant of intolerance is a good thing, or something? Doesn't that cancel out? Also, we live in a society.

[EDIT] In completely unrelated news, lets lighten the mood a little with some actual 40k miniature and/or hobby stuff. I've actually painted an army! Like, ALL of it! The only completed project in.... 8 years, maybe?

*Spoiler*
Show



Primaris Dark Angels, in Heresy-era colours. Because I already have a Black Templars army which ISN'T painted black/white/red and nothing is allowed to be simple. 2x Ancients, 10x Intercessors, and 5x Hellblasters.



Primaris Apothecaries. I have 3 Squads of Bladeguard who are going to proxy for Company Veterans with Storm Shields that I packed away before taking pictures, 2 of which will be led by these guys an the third led by....



Primaris-ised Chief Apothecary conversion. I learned a while ago while building Grey Knight versions of other Chapters' Chapter Masters that the Space Marine kits are more-or-less interchangeable, so I made a horrible, frankenstinian amalgamation of Primaris Apothecary, Primaris Librarian, and a minor but generous addition from Forgeworld East. He's an abomination of parts, rules, and nature alike, but I'm truly overjoyed with how neat the conversion was to put together.

Just need a red DA transfer for the Chief's shoulder and a third Ancient for the last squad, and they're pretty much done.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Okay, going back to the 2nd/11th Primarchs: There is no answer because there's not allowed to be an answer.  


> In all honestly, [the Space Wolves] weren't involved with the Lost Legions. There's no answer to what happened to the Lost Legions, so whenever there's a suggestion or a hint, you can take in the spirit it's intended. Even on the HH team we know there's no answer, so we know the Wolves didn't do it. They can't have done - because if they did, that would be an answer.
> 
> To be clear: It's not a case of "We know the answer and we're not allowed to say except in hints." It's a case of "There is no answer, at all, and there's not allowed to be an answer."

----------


## Blackhawk748

> In addition, correct me if I'm wrong but Star Wars and Star Trek both at some point excised huge sections of their canon - 100% in the case of the latter, right? So clearly the publishers of said canon are happy to discard it when needed. Comics ditch their canon all the time, whereas the MCU is absolutely crippled by adhering to it in such a way that every new film requires homework to understand.


I can't recall Star Trek utterly excising a huge portion of its canon. Star Wars did that and it created a gigantic rift in the entire fanbase that only got worse when fans of the de-canonized stuff started seeing it be redone in the new work but just worse.

Seriously, Rise of Skywalker is just Dark Empire done worse and the original was pretty hated in the first place.




> I like the style of canon that the Fast and Furious films use (and apparently also Eastenders): if it's canon to this work, it'll be brought up in this work. If not, don't worry about it. Seems like a much healthier standard to apply to media than to allow them to simply nod at "canon" that a viewer is meant to understand. There's sensible reasons Darth Maul is in Solo, in the canon, but believe you me I'm not watching Rebels just to find out what they are. Make me care about something here and now, in this book/film/episode, or don't include it.


No, Maul is in Solo as an attempt to bend over backwards in order to make Fan Service happen. I watched Rebels, he was good in it, he had no reason to be in that trainwreck of a film. 

You don't have to be a slave to canon, but just casually throwing it away completely defeats the point of having it in the first place. Like, the entire point of having a shared world is that things affect other things and that they go into each other. If you aren't doing that, why isn't everything just in its own Timeline? Cuz that's an option too.




> Gosh, _decades_? That must be the gold standard then. I mean, imagine if there were stories that got picked up and retold by different people centuries or millennia after they were first written, and each retelling and spin-off made editorial changes to the characters and the events that were often incompatible with other versions, but still people would recognise them as the same story and read them (or watch them or listen to them) anyway. I mean that would be mad, wouldn't it. Like imagine if someone did a version of Hamlet where he was a lion, everyone knows he's a Danish man.


It's almost like that's not what Im talking about.

Retelling a story is not the same as adding stuff to that universe, so Hamlet and the Lion King aren't any sort of counterpoint. I am talking about a continuous body of work that gets added to, either by the same or other people, that continues that overall universe. Dune is a good example of this. Hamlet is not, because Hamlet doesn't have a shared universe with... well, anything. Its a standalone work that Disney scrubbed the barcode off of and put in a Lion costume for Lion King.

Hell, the Arthurian Mythos would have been an actual counterpoint, because people are still adding stuff to that _to this day_. Except, they split it off from each other because of the exact issues that have been brought up in here. There's a lot of stuff and it doesn't always mesh with the other stuff. And that's why it gets broken up into various pieces that all share canonicity to one another and can, or can not be, compatible with other sets of work.

Like, Lancelot being "he who Lances a lot of Women" is a meme from FATE that is taken from a french dude's work that happened like, 700 years after the original was made. Lancelot being that way, is only true in that work and work that chooses to utilize that part of the canon. That's why it's a separate canon. This is also the same reason Gundam made different timelines. But if that doesn't happen in the work, then you have to reconcile the giant pile of stuff that is all going on at once, and if there is too much dissonance in it, you have problems with keeping people invested because the canon suddenly doesn't matter, so why am I going to bother? 




> For personal interest, I went and checked, and while I was unable to verify this, apparently the first use of the term in this sort of context was in reference to Sherlock Holmes. It referred to the stories specifically written by Arthur Conan Doyle, while all other authors using the character are 'non-canon.' If true, this means that originally, it wasn't about things which are confirmed to exist at all, it was about who had written them (Which makes sense, given the history of the word itself, no more on that here.) Following that logic, Frank Herbert's Dune is canon, while everything Brian Herbert did is not. Which I am ok with, incidentally. 
> 
> This would get a little muddled though when you run into things like Star Trek, which has had numerous writers through its history, or 40k, which is an ascended tabletop game with multiple creators. Star Trek was created by just one person - Gene Rodenberry - but plenty of Star Trek that has been made without his input is still considered canon.


From my understanding that's even how the Dune community seems to view it, there's Frank's work, which is indisputably canon, and then Brians is optional, which makes sense cuz he's continuing his dad's work, and he tries, but he isn't his father.

As for something like Star Trek, I agree that's harder, usually that goes by what is in a primary source that doesn't conflict with the rest of the primary sources. For this, that would be the TV Shows and any movie made by Rodenberry, so TOS and TNG. The stuff after that would probably go TV and Movies that remain generally in line with what was already made and doesn't go running off into ridiculousness or massively contradict what was in group 1.

Won't lie, its less of a hard science for that than an art form that goes by feel, simply because if a work flies massively in the face of the themes, tone, or generally power level of a setting it sticks out like a sore thumb and gets ignored, because it doesn't fit.

That is why G Gundam gets treated the way it does. And as much as I love it, that's perfectly fair.

----------


## Avaris

> Hell, the Arthurian Mythos would have been an actual counterpoint, because people are still adding stuff to that _to this day_. Except, they split it off from each other because of the exact issues that have been brought up in here. There's a lot of stuff and it doesn't always mesh with the other stuff. And that's why it gets broken up into various pieces that all share canonicity to one another and can, or can not be, compatible with other sets of work.


I very much feel that various historic mythos are, for me, the right way to approach canon in any large fictional universe. The stories of the various historical pantheons - Greek, Nordic, Celtic - were often self contradictory, because the stories were told by many different storytellers over a large period of time, and then embellished by others. But a story featuring Thor was still a story featuring Thor - even if he logically couldn't do everything in all the stories told, or is a weakness in one would prevent a victory in another, it didn't matter - he was still Thor.

As far as I am aware, the idea of the single, constant canon being superior to all other forms of the story being told is VERY modern. Comics didn't care until relatively recently, for example, but now you have the stereotype of someone obsessively cataloguing it all and demanding answers to inconsistencies. Which is fun for some people! But it isn't the way people have been telling stories through most of history. And I feel applying that logic to a setting like 40k, an explicitly creative endeavor, is doing it something of a disservice. Exploring canon is good and fun! Holding others to it is not.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> Comics didn't care until relatively recently, for example


Which is why comics are _awful._  :Small Tongue: 

In seriousness, though, having a consistent timeline and consistency in characters is what makes a story a story.  The less consistent you are, the more you destroy the willing suspension of disbelief.  If I'm supposed to believe that Ciaphas Cain was assigned to Valhallan regiments for his entire career, you'd best not write a story wherein he's been assigned to the Steel Legion all his life; similarly don't show me that the _Executor_ is roughly twenty times longer than its escorting destroyers on screen in Empire Strikes Back and then try to tell me it's only five times the size in the RPG later (and then get salty enough about being corrected to work your way into being put in charge of continuity at Lucasfilm only to immediately start sabotaging efforts at said continuity to get back at the correctors of your mistakes, _Pablo Hidalgo_).

----------


## Avaris

> Which is why comics are _awful._ 
> 
> In seriousness, though, having a consistent timeline and consistency in characters is what makes a story a story.  The less consistent you are, the more you destroy the willing suspension of disbelief.  If I'm supposed to believe that Ciaphas Cain was assigned to Valhallan regiments for his entire career, you'd best not write a story wherein he's been assigned to the Steel Legion all his life; similarly don't show me that the _Executor_ is roughly twenty times longer than its escorting destroyers on screen in Empire Strikes Back and then try to tell me it's only five times the size in the RPG later (and then get salty enough about being corrected to work your way into being put in charge of continuity at Lucasfilm only to immediately start sabotaging efforts at said continuity to get back at the correctors of your mistakes, _Pablo Hidalgo_).


You're right, that's what makes a story a story. A comic arc should be consistent within it's own narrative. But once something gets so large as to be a setting/mythos/multiverse/whatever, I'd say that becomes less important. Once it becomes beyond reasonable expectation for anyone to consume all material produced for any given thing, it ceases being a single story!

40k, and other similar properties, is not a single story. It's a setting. And as such it can, and should IMO, be much more woolly around the edges.

----------


## LCP

> Retelling a story is not the same as adding stuff to that universe, so Hamlet and the Lion King aren't any sort of counterpoint. I am talking about a continuous body of work that gets added to, either by the same or other people, that continues that overall universe.


You mean like _Rozencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead_? Or the _Aeneid_?

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## Wraith

So there's Hard and Soft Canon. The 'hard' canon of (for example) Sherlock Holmes would be all the stuff written by Arthur Conan Doyle, and the soft canon could be the stuff written about the same character, in the same universe, but by other authors that have the blessing of the ACD estate. It's all canon, but some of it is more equal than the rest, as it were.

Even in that sort of continuity, even where the timeline still adds up and the new authors don't contradict the old ones, there's a fracture in the continuity where the fans recognise that all of it is canon, but then argue over which of it is the "right" canon. Nobody would argue that _A Study in Emerald_* by Neil Gaiman was part of the THE Sherlock Holmes canon, however for the most part it has virtually all of the hallmarks of a soft canon story.

Now do that for the Horus Heresy, which has ~15 authors. They're all 30k, they're all sponsored by GW, but some of them have to be the 'main' story while others are valid, but less important, and others still are just of tenuous relation. Or for the Star Wars EU, which has more like ~50 authors. Which is which?

Trick question! The answer is, "it doesn't really matter, so long as you're enjoying the bits you have read and aren't trying to get cancelled people who have different opinions".  :Small Big Grin:  :Small Tongue: 

* If you aren't familiar with that one, it's where...
*Spoiler*
Show

...The Queen of England is a Starspawn, _a la_ HP Lovecraft's mythos, and Holmes is a V For Vendetta-style terrorist trying to bring down the alien monarchy.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

> Interesting. So when you refer to the people who do pay attention the baseline cannon of the stories as written and prefer to stay within the realm of it's possibility as  you aren't basically telling a wide swath of the player base they are 'not doing it right'? At the least you certainly seem dismissive of them, and anyone else who is interacting with the hobby differently then from how you want them too.


There's a pretty critical difference between telling someone they're doing it wrong, and telling someone that they can't tell me I'm doing it wrong. If someone wants to adhere stringently to the canon stories and try their best not to write anything contradictory, that's fine. The problem only arises when that hypothetical person tells someone else that they have to do that too. Or at very least, that them not doing so is somehow terrible.

----------


## Drasius

Something that a LOT of people on here don't want to hear, but _*nobody*_ gives a **** what deviations from the established canon you make. You can have whatever weird crap you want happen in _*your*_ version of 40k, but you can't argue with the world that the authors have written.

Should Angron have been able to bench press a Titan? No, it's ****ing stupid, but it's words that ADB put on the page and were accepted by the publishers. I'm going to keep ignoring that it happened that way, but I can't argue that it didn't when it's brought up. Do I hate the Newcron fluff? Absolutely. Do I think the previous way was better? Without a doubt. Do I think that I can ignore that this is how things are now when it's being discussed? Nope.

That's not to say that you have to like it. I basically dropped out of 40k at launch day of 8th, and the few novels I've read for the "new" 40k have left a very bad taste in my mouth, to the point where I doubt I'll ever interact with them again. I've caught up on all my backlog, and will now get back to catching up on the HH stuff I've missed, but just like Battletech's WoB arc and the timeskip was enough for me to stop following along with something that I had an almost religious devotion to for over a decade, it's quite likely that the "new" 40k will be enough to turn me away from anything to do with modern 40k going forward. I can't deny that they exist, and I can't argue against them if they decide to retcon stuff, because it IS canon, no matter how dumb I think it is.

----------


## Cheesegear

Lucky I'm fast at typing...




> At which point, I wonder, does 'fracturing the community' instead become 'there is more than one community'?


Partial agree. But the problem arises when those two communities refuse to interact with one another.

Hey, Gav Thorpe was a game designer for 3rd and 4th Eds., and still remains to this day a reasonably prolific author at BL. He was responsible for maintaining IP for a while, like that was his job. I think he knows what he's talking about when it comes to this sort of thing.
Nah, **** him. We have nothing to talk about.
o rly? I guess we don't have common ground then.




> Because the issue seems to be more along the lines of, here are two different ways of approaching the subject...


Yeah. Of course there is:

This is what it says in the book.
No it doesn't. Or, if it does, I'm ignoring it.

Again. This is for things that don't matter - fictional narratives about toy soldiers. We can't even go along to get along. I wonder if this applies all the way up to something, something real-world example where being able to agree on things absolutely does matter and we still don't do it.




> 'Rules' is the social contract that all must reach consensus in order to participate - even if its understood to be only temporarily in the case of an experimental/homebrew/'just for fun' army list. 'Story' happens in my head and there's not a damn thing any of you can do about it.


Correct.
Rules are more or less official. They're the ones you use in tournaments. However, _you_ in your own home, with your friends and no outside influence, can totally make up any rule you want. You want Tactical Marines to be 13 Points and only have 1 Wound again? Done. You want Scouts-as-Troops again? Done. Hell, maybe you want to go all the way back to 8th Ed., and just keep playing that. But no-one outside your specific group is...Well..._Obligated_ to play with you, and when you go online, you're gonna find out that the world has moved on, and Tactical Marines aren't 13 Points anymore and Scouts aren't Troops anymore and whatever you're talking about is fairly specific to you.

Fluff...Is also that. There are books that are written. Things happened in them. Some of them good, some of them bad, some of them totally stupid. I will never not be mad that Kor'sarro Khan was character assassinated. I will never not be mad that Iron Warriors were able to teleport directly onto _Phalanx_ and summon Demons inside it. But those things did happen. And now I have to go on knowing that those things happened.

...If you want to write a fanfic about your part of the Universe. You can do that. You can even post it where other people will see it. Will people like it? Maybe? Will they care? Who knows? But how do you respond if people don't like your part of the Universe and think it's dumb? That's right. Personal attacks and labels!




> But my point is, that only matters if we agree that we want it to.
> Canon has no authority, except when a bunch of us internet weirdos are trying to one-up each other a collaborative group of acquaintances on a forum are recounting the most-commonly recognised narrative.
> 
> What you choose to do with that narrative is entirely outside of everyone else' scope, and getting cross with each other about that holds about as much importance as whether or not you liking the colour of the shirt I'm wearing today does on whether or not I'm going to wear it anyway.


Yeah I'll try and find what Gav Thorpe said.

But if you're at a table, _in front of someone_, ready to play a game, in the next ten seconds:

Is that Guilliman? Painted in Deathwatch colours? Why?
Does it matter?
Not really. But it is Guilliman, right?
Yes.
... ... I rolled a '5' to deploy first.

No when you go on the internet; People theoretically have unlimited time and nowhere else to be. People can copy their post into a Notepad for later and come back two days later with a 1000-word post about how you're wrong. On the internet, things don't get ignored because they don't need to be. Also, some people type real fast whilst their girlfriend is watching TV.

At the table, things get ignored all the time. Unfortunately, the internet isn't real life. As literally everyone who has ever been on the internet, knows.




> I don't think that's the same, however, as telling people they're "not allowed" to do something different or that they're "wrong" to enjoy the game in a different way to me, which is the example that has been given above.


I'm not big on fanfics. But my girlfriend is. _Harry Potter_ for life - you know how it is. She's still mad I refuse to do a House Test or whatever it is. I think it's funny that she's mad. I bet she thinks it's funny when I'm mad about my thing ("Toy soldiers are serious business")...In fact I know she thinks it's funny. Because just like _Harry Potter_ doesn't matter, neither do toy soldiers. But hey, people like what they like.

There is absolutely a right way, and a wrong way, to write fanfics. When someone deliberately goes out of their way to break canon, they have to or should label it as such*. That way everybody understands before they even read it that you can't really criticise it - you can only praise it (oof). Because all criticism against your canon-breaking fanfic can - and will - be met with 'Well I just like it this way.' And that's game. You also understand that with that canon-breaking tag, you know you don't need to read it because it's not important.

*I just asked my GF. She said 'Alternate Universe (AU)'. That would confuse the **** out of me because if something was labeled (AU), I would assume that the author is Australian.




> In completely unrelated news, lets lighten the mood a little with some actual 40k miniature and/or hobby stuff.


Looking pretty good.
Unfortunately most of my hobby-stuff these days isn't GW-related and I can't engage.  :Small Frown: 




> Okay, going back to the 2nd/11th Primarchs: There is no answer because there's not allowed to be an answer.


 :Small Sigh: 
He can't say stuff like that. Because my immediate question is...



```
Kasper: There's a first time for everything.
Russ: Exactly.
Kasper: The unprecedented. Like...Astartes fighting Astartes? Like the Rout being called to sanction another Legion?
Russ: That? ((Sad Laugh)) Hjolda, no. That's not unprecedented.
```

Tell me specifically what that means, ADB. Because if that doesn't mean what I think it means, and ADB comes out and says it can't mean what I think it means...Then he should either tell me what he did mean it to mean, or, he should never have written a cutesy-baby-games-reference in the first place. And no author should have ever made any reference to the Lost Primarchs/Legions - with editorial approval, I'll add - *ever*.

The problem is that authors did and do make references to the Lost, with a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" to the audience, on purpose...And now I get to ask people whether their Lost Primarch was the one Leman Russ almost-probably executed, or is theirs the one that almost-definitely did something so bad that the Emperor Himself chewed them out, and not even by proxy using Malcador. Or maybe because it's just vague enough...Did they get chewed out by the Emperor and executed by Russ, and that was the horrific thing that 9 Primarchs were gathered to witness that one time that they're not allowed to speak of to anyone ever...




> Now do that for the Horus Heresy, which has ~15 authors. They're all 30k, they're all sponsored by GW, but some of them have to be the 'main' story while others are valid, but less important, and others still are just of tenuous relation. Or for the Star Wars EU, which has more like ~50 authors. Which is which?


Are Blood Angels red? So far, so good. Let's easily agree. That was an easy one. I also remember specifically Gav Thorpe bringing this up. I will find it.
Umm akshually Death Company are black and Sanguinary Guard are Gold and- Yeah, okay. Maybe it wasn't that easy and we're gonna play baby games, where people are gonna pretend that they don't know what 'Blood Angels are red' means. Your presonal preferences aren't really important, because we all understand that Blood Angels are red.

Is Guilliman a ****? ...Maybe. Maybe not. Discuss. Nobody will necessarily be wrong. Do you like Guilliman, or not?

Official Badass, Aeonid Thiel is confirmed for Alpha Legion. When was Thiel replaced? Is Badass Thiel real, or is Badass Thiel actually the Alpha Legion one and it's all a scam. Aww poop. Let's try and figure it out. To be able to do this you need to know about Thiel. There isn't necessarily a right answer. But the conversation requires a level of knowledge about Thiel. What you like isn't really relevant, because what actually matters is establishing - or trying to - a timeline.

If Frauka has a limiter than can turn his Blank-ness off, can't they just make more. If not, why not? Why are Blanks even a problem if Dan Abnett said that Blanks aren't really a problem? This doesn't make sense. Did Abnett do an oopsie? ...Uhh...We don't know. But we can - as individuals - decide whether or not we like the fact that Frauka has a limiter. If we like it, we run with it. If we don't like the idea that Blanks can just turn their Blankness off, then we relegate Frauka's limiter to _Ravenor_ only and we never need to bring it up again...But Frauka does have one. Surely Commissar Cain with his rank and Inquisitorial connections could've got one for Jurgen - that would've solved some social problems.

Female Spa- Shhh...Shhh...No we can't talk about that one. The second we engage that one labels and personal attacks start getting thrown around.

Horus was right and Imperials are Naz- No don't! Not that one!!!1!
_*Cheesegear lives in a State that has banned rabbits, and still breaks his foot on a rock and falls down a rabbit hole so deep Lewis Carroll rolls in his grave.*_




> Something that a LOT of people on here don't want to hear, but _*nobody*_ gives a **** what deviations from the established canon you make. You can have whatever weird crap you want happen in _*your*_ version of 40k, but you can't argue with the world that the authors have written.


Agreed.




> and the few novels I've read for the "new" 40k have left a very bad taste in my mouth, to the point where I doubt I'll ever interact with them again.


I would like to forget that the _Siege of Terra_ happened, and I would definitely like to forget that Dorn was nerfed into a potato to make the Siege work. But that is apparently what I'm working with.

----------


## LeSwordfish

> Tell me specifically what that means, ADB.


Could that not be a reference to the wolves censuring the World Eaters? The Night Of The Wolf?

----------


## Cheesegear

> Could that not be a reference to the wolves censuring the World Eaters? The Night Of The Wolf?


I know nobody reads _Dawn of Fire_; In _The Wolf Time_, written last year by...Gav Thorpe (ain't that a coincidence)...



```
Custode: If Guilliman was to turn on the Emperor then the Space Wolves would be one of his first opponents.
The history of the Ten Thousand with the Eleventh Legion is a reminder of that.
Why would Guilliman be so keen to arm and expand such an obstacle to his ambition?
```

This is a strong implication that XI rebelled against the Emperor, and the Space Wolves were sent to deal with it. However, once again, I have to reconcile that with the fact that Horus, and the Luna Wolves and the Sons of Horus - and the Black Legion - still get their names.

Was XI that bad? Or was Horus and the Traitor Legions simply...Well, more Galaxy-spanningly _obvious_ that they couldn't be wiped from history?

EDIT; ION
I'm very impressed that New GW is offering refunds on the Leagues. That's a very big step in the right direction.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

> Do I think that I can ignore that this is how things are now when it's being discussed? Nope.


And that's where you're wrong. It goes like this: "oh, I didn't like that part, so when I'm writing my own stuff I don't count it."

Because that's what this whole thing is about. Ignoring canon when you're writing your own army's backstory, or your own stories, being a thing you can do. That's the _point._ So when you say that nobody cares what you put in your own stories, welll...

Either you're right, we agree that people can write what they want, and we all go home happy. Or you're wrong, and we've just had three pages of conversation sparked by how people very much care what you put in your stories.

----------


## Artanis

> I'm not big on fanfics. But my girlfriend is. Harry Potter for life - you know how it is. She's still mad I refuse to do a House Test or whatever it is.


Great, now my brain is trying to come up with a joke involving Hufflepuffs and Imperial Fists both wearing yellow  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Forum Explorer

> I'm not big on fanfics. But my girlfriend is. _Harry Potter_ for life - you know how it is. She's still mad I refuse to do a House Test or whatever it is. I think it's funny that she's mad. I bet she thinks it's funny when I'm mad about my thing ("Toy soldiers are serious business")...In fact I know she thinks it's funny. Because just like _Harry Potter_ doesn't matter, neither do toy soldiers. But hey, people like what they like.
> 
> There is absolutely a right way, and a wrong way, to write fanfics. *When someone deliberately goes out of their way to break canon, they have to or should label it as such*. That way everybody understands before they even read it that you can't really criticise it - you can only praise it (oof)*. Because all criticism against your canon-breaking fanfic can - and will - be met with 'Well I just like it this way.' And that's game. You also understand that with that canon-breaking tag, you know you don't need to read it because it's not important.
> 
> *I just asked my GF. She said 'Alternate Universe (AU)'. That would confuse the **** out of me because if something was labeled (AU), I would assume that the author is Australian.


No, you can criticize it on so many different categories, usually involving a character being OOC (out of character), and you can draw from canon to do so. For example; if I was writing an AU story where Harry Potter was raised in Australia instead of England and then when I had him go to Hogwarts back in England, Hermione was suddenly a giggly cheerleader, people would rightfully criticize me for that because how on Earth does Harry being Austrailian cause that when they never interact before that point in the first place?

When you write an AU story you don't (or rather you shouldn't) ignore canon, in fact you should be hyper familiar with canon so that you can always answer the question of why your premise changed canon. The premise can't really be criticized (well it can, but...) but the actual story can be.

----------


## Drasius

> And that's where you're wrong. It goes like this: "oh, I didn't like that part, so when I'm writing my own stuff I don't count it."
> 
> Because that's what this whole thing is about. Ignoring canon when you're writing your own army's backstory, or your own stories, being a thing you can do. That's the _point._ So when you say that nobody cares what you put in your own stories, welll...
> 
> Either you're right, we agree that people can write what they want, and we all go home happy. Or you're wrong, and we've just had three pages of conversation sparked by how people very much care what you put in your stories.


See, this comes back to the first part - Nobody gives a **** about your fanfic/backstory/fluff. Not just you specifically, but anyones. If you want to re-write whatever part of 30k or 40k you want for your own personal canon that doesn't affect anyone else, go nuts. But if someone is sitting at the painting table and ask, "Hey, what's the deal with [x]?" and anyone starts banging on about their special snowflake version of stuff that's not aligned with the word of god, yeah, you're going to get corrected.

I don't care what special stuff you want to believe in your version of 40k, but I will correct you (again, not just you specifically) if you're deviating from what is specifically set down as happening. There's a _*significant*_ difference between "There are no genestealers in **my** 40k" and "There are no genestealers in 40k". The first one is ... fine, if a little odd and should be of no relevance to anyone but you (which brings up the question of why the hell we're discussing it in the first place), the second is flat out wrong and needs to be corrected.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> See, this comes back to the first part - Nobody gives a **** about your fanfic/backstory/fluff. Not just you specifically, but anyones. If you want to re-write whatever part of 30k or 40k you want for your own personal canon that doesn't affect anyone else, go nuts. But if someone is sitting at the painting table and ask, "Hey, what's the deal with [x]?" and anyone starts banging on about their special snowflake version of stuff that's not aligned with the word of god, yeah, you're going to get corrected.


Too bad for you then and your insistence on this, but no one likes or cares about someone going "well ackshually" when they're trying to have fun either. there are people out there will who will just see what your doing as annoying know-it-all insistence on accuracy and being a buzzkill as ruining the mood rather than being some righteous corrector of canon. good luck holding that attitude when talking to communities who take a more memetic and relaxed approach to this.

----------


## Hootman

SCENE: A relatively quiet thread. Sometimes there won't be posts for a week or more, and conversation is often only in short bursts. A long discussion is about 5 posts in 7 days.




> Oh how this thread has fallen from ye days of olde.
> 
> Votan release coming up about to be the most broken thing 40k has ever experienced and not a peep about it here.
> [...]
> What has happened to 40k?





> I blame Cheesegear.  He got fed up with GW and decided he was done with 40k.


But then, a mere week later...




> "Fracturing the community is good actually."


Cue almost 60 posts in under a week. You've got a real gift for bringing everyone out of the woodwork, Siege.  :Small Big Grin: 






> I don't care if no one else remembers 8-Bit Theatre from 2006, it makes me happy.


FWIW, _I_ remember. I always wanted to make a joke-character who used sword-chucks...




> Great, now my brain is trying to come up with a joke involving Hufflepuffs and Imperial Fists both wearing yellow


Clearly Alpha Legion is Slytherin, and I guess Raven Guard could be Ravenclaw? Or Ultramarines, they're a bunch of nerds. Now we just need a group who prefer red and being troublesome protagonists. I assume there's a Heresy-era color scheme I don't know about that fits, if Blood Angels aren't a good fit.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> See, this comes back to the first part - Nobody gives a **** about your fanfic/backstory/fluff. Not just you specifically, but anyones. If you want to re-write whatever part of 30k or 40k you want for your own personal canon that doesn't affect anyone else, go nuts. But if someone is sitting at the painting table and ask, "Hey, what's the deal with [x]?" and anyone starts banging on about their special snowflake version of stuff that's not aligned with the word of god, yeah, you're going to get corrected.
> 
> I don't care what special stuff you want to believe in your version of 40k, but I will correct you (again, not just you specifically) if you're deviating from what is specifically set down as happening. There's a _*significant*_ difference between "There are no genestealers in **my** 40k" and "There are no genestealers in 40k". The first one is ... fine, if a little odd and should be of no relevance to anyone but you (which brings up the question of why the hell we're discussing it in the first place), the second is flat out wrong and needs to be corrected.





> Too bad for you then and your insistence on this, but no one likes or cares about someone going "well ackshually" when they're trying to have fun either. there are people out there will who will just see what your doing as annoying know-it-all insistence on accuracy and being a buzzkill as ruining the mood rather than being some righteous corrector of canon. good luck holding that attitude when talking to communities who take a more memetic and relaxed approach to this.


You guys are both right. Like if some guy had some elaborate story on how his GSC army works in a galaxy without any Tyranids, I don't in any way feel obligated to adopt his fanon, but I'll listen to it. Unless it sucks, in which case I'll get bored and change the subject, because Lord Raziere is right too: If some guy is talking about his fanon, I'm not going to be 'umm actually that's not canon.' He almost certainly knows that. Pointing it out just makes me look like an idiot who can't read a social cue. 

Unless it is something actually obscure like the Ynnari having someone who can transform into a proto-Avatar. That's really weird and I wouldn't expect someone to know that. So I might bring that up in a manner like 'Hey, did you know about...?" or "Hey have you read...?" 

Which kinda brings us full circle. If someone wants to talk about their fanon, you don't have to engage with them if you don't want to. You can shut them down in various ways and just play the game instead. Or focus on your painting, or whatever part of the hobby you prefer. But they probably don't want to talk to you about canon either. And that's fine. Not everyone has to enjoy every part of the hobby the same way as you, and fanfics hardly ever actually fracture a community. They might cause fights and arguments, as anyone who has met a shipper might tell you, but different groups of fans can usually mutually enjoy some other aspect of the fandom, even if they don't agree on one part.

----------


## 9mm

If we're still talking about the lost legions...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL39...nel=ArbitorIan

complete with interesting comments from Rick Priestley in the comment section.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

> See, this comes back to the first part - Nobody gives a **** about your fanfic/backstory/fluff. Not just you specifically, but anyones. If you want to re-write whatever part of 30k or 40k you want for your own personal canon that doesn't affect anyone else, go nuts. But if someone is sitting at the painting table and ask, "Hey, what's the deal with [x]?" and anyone starts banging on about their special snowflake version of stuff that's not aligned with the word of god, yeah, you're going to get corrected.
> 
> I don't care what special stuff you want to believe in your version of 40k, but I will correct you (again, not just you specifically) if you're deviating from what is specifically set down as happening. There's a _*significant*_ difference between "There are no genestealers in **my** 40k" and "There are no genestealers in 40k". The first one is ... fine, if a little odd and should be of no relevance to anyone but you (which brings up the question of why the hell we're discussing it in the first place), the second is flat out wrong and needs to be corrected.


So do people care, or don't they? Because when I say Cawl is dumb, Newcrons are dumb, and the big warp rift is dumb and I'm ignoring that they exist, I obviously know they exist. If they didn't, I wouldn't have to ignore them. Why does it _need_ to be corrected?

For that matter, while we're on the subject of things between which there are significant differences, there's a pretty big one between "Oh hey, did you know about [obscure thing] that talks about X?" and "Your version of stuff is wrong. stop fracturing the community you terrible person."

As for why we're discussing it... because the sharing of ideas and stories is fun and has remained so for the past several thousand years?

----------


## Cheesegear

> Cue almost 60 posts in under a week. You've got a real gift for bringing everyone out of the woodwork, Siege.


Nobody's called me that in a while.  :Small Smile: 

I noticed something during 8th Ed. regarding the game; Y'know the rapid fire Codex releases that were so good for everyone? It _annihilated_ a pretty big market - competitive players, who are poor (i.e; Players who spend money every month, regularly, in order to keep up). I've said it before; My area skews towards the lower end of the economic spectrum. But a lot of people - especially younger, more entitled, and more importantly _new_ players - want to win games, they want an army that doesn't suck. If they're gonna be spending money, they need to know it's worth it.

Unfortunately, the game moved too quickly; FAQs dropped. Reformatting the rules. Vigilus came out. Oh ****, you play Guard and _don't_ have the BSF models? Oh this Codex is the new hotness this month, so your army is garbage now and you have to re-tool your collection.

It was too much. The thing that people were praising - "No Codex left behind" - actually drove people away from the hobby. Who could've seen that coming?

Now in 9th Ed. we have FAQs-For-Profit, also the world's economy took a nosedive so who even is keeping up unless your income is tied to your hobby (looking at you, YouTubers)?  :Small Sigh: 
New blood comes into the hobby, drops $500 to start a new army, and proceeds to spend another hundred or so each month in order to get to 2000 Po- ...Just kidding, while they were in the process of building their army the game changed and now their army that they don't even have yet, is trash. New blood leaves. No new kids, only grognards. 

There are much, much, much better games for competitive gamers on a budget. So those people are just gone. I can't even recommend _Kill Team_ anymore, and I definitely don't recommend getting into _Underworlds_ - not anymore, anyway. _Blood Bowl_ is still fine, mostly. However, if you're a competitive gamer with a massive budget and you do want to play in GW's sandbox...Well, what are you doing in this playground (there's a joke for this forum there somewhere, I know it)?

Then you have casuals (i.e; Usually players who spend a bit of money up front, but don't bother keeping up unless something comes out that they like). Who are happy enough to play with their friends. They don't need to talk with other people and frankly they don't really care to. What? They're gonna get told that they're having fun wrong? **** no. 'Umm akshually the Narrative Games you play with your friends are dumb.' No. They're not gonna take that, and why would they? Fair enough. No-one cares about their Narrative Games, and they don't care about anyone's opinion on their Narrative Games - they're having FUN. So what's the point?

I had a lot of fun playing _The Red Waaagh!_, and this forum seemed to engage with my story on said Narrative... But then GW never did another one. Or rather, they never did another one that was as good.

Fluff, is more or less the same.

You have a cadre of ~5 writers; ADB, McNeill, Abnett, and Gav Thorpe, and someone else I'm probably not thinking of. These guys churn out reasonable work, at a reasonable pace, and anyone who cares to, can keep up relatively easily, and all the novels are written with a reasonable amount of quality that no-one is really upset to read. Once a year or so there's an anthology of stories written by authors you've never heard of - you can skip that one.

Then you smash cut to about three dozen authors all churning out their own stories, none of them talking to each other, the quality control simply just...Gone...Due to the amount of stories being thrown out (sorry Kyme, I know it's not actually your fault). No-one wants to read anything because it's inconsistent and no-one wants to read anything because the quality is terrible. Even when Swallow, French and Wraight show up to write _phenomenal_ books, the others are still writing books, and you can't read them all. What do? How does anyone keep up, even with the good stuff?

If you want to read military fiction, heroic fiction, sci-fi space magic...There are so many novels out there. Amazon allows self-publishing now so the books can be $5 a pop, sometimes even free. Amazon just gave me the first three _Honor Harrington_ books for free. Okay. Looks like this is what I'm reading now.

Point is the publishing train just never slows down, and once again, the bubble bursts. People just can't keep up, so they stop participating all together. Cool. So what fluff do people want to talk about if they don't read books? ...Oh, I guess nothing. Cool beans.

Unfortunately I've reached a point where I have nothing to talk about. The only person who would engage with me was Lans, and he got banned ages ago. Let's talk about Leagues of Votann being broken-as-**** and then the following nerf... Does anyone care? Not really. Alright. What has happened to this forum is happening in a lot of places. Hardcore players (and readers) are being driven out, and casuals don't actually care - hence why they're casuals. So what's left?

We're all theoretically "in" the hobby. But what do we actually say to each other? Nothing, I guess. Just everyone do your own thing and nobody talk to each other. Cool? Cool.

----------


## LeSwordfish

I'm playing more games than I have in ages, and still talk and think about warhammer just as much as I used to, I just talk about it with people I like talking to.

----------


## Mystic Muse

I'm going to try and do a bunch of painting week after next. So maybe that will help with activity a little.

I've mostly been working on the fluff and such for my Primarch/Legion, which due to the very religious nature of a lot of it I probably can't talk about here, and I don't think anyone here would care even if I could.

It's something I'm personally very invested in, but nobody here has a reason to care.

----------


## Eldan

> You guys are both right. Like if some guy had some elaborate story on how his GSC army works in a galaxy without any Tyranids, I don't in any way feel obligated to adopt his fanon, but I'll listen to it.


Hey, that's not fanon, that's just _really oldschool_, when the Tyranids were a slave empire and the Genestealers an independent species.

Edit: my problem with the FAQs is that... over 90% of people I play with don't read them. Many have _never_ been to the GW website in their lives, most don't speak/read much English, and they certainly wouldn't bother printing out some FAQ and memorize it. Rules are in books (tm), or sometimes really old White Dwarf magazines. So GW publishes overpowered ****? That either gets shadowbanned (i.e. "Jeff, we don't want to play againts your Votann army, they are overpowered") or homebrew-comped ("Okay, Jeff, I'll play against your new army, but only if you take no more than one of that unit there and you don't use that one rule I hate"). Which is frustrating for everyone.

----------


## Drasius

> Too bad for you then and your insistence on this, but no one likes or cares about someone going "well ackshually" when they're trying to have fun either. there are people out there will who will just see what your doing as annoying know-it-all insistence on accuracy and being a buzzkill as ruining the mood rather than being some righteous corrector of canon. good luck holding that attitude when talking to communities who take a more memetic and relaxed approach to this.


Not really, since I don't care if people don't like being corrected. Being wrong and/or distributing incorrect information should be corrected. Use your imagination on stuff that doesn't already have in universe explainations/facts/statements/reasons. If it's a community of people who are all absorbed in their own version of 40k and not interested in how things actually are, then outside of playing games, no, we probably wouldn't get on and wouldn't really interact or say much other than rolling our eyes at each other across the painting table.




> ...I don't in any way feel obligated to adopt his fanon, but I'll listen to it. Unless it sucks


That's the thing FE, they all suck. >99.99% of all fanon sucks.




> If some guy is talking about his fanon, I'm not going to be 'umm actually that's not canon.' He almost certainly knows that. Pointing it out just makes me look like an idiot who can't read a social cue.


Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about, we're talking about having a conversation around the painting table and people 




> So do people care, or don't they? Because when I say Cawl is dumb, Newcrons are dumb, and the big warp rift is dumb and I'm ignoring that they exist, I obviously know they exist. If they didn't, I wouldn't have to ignore them. Why does it _need_ to be corrected?


Nobody cares about fanfics and alternate universes, but discussing why you do or don't like stuff, why the canon is dumb or awesome is more than fair game (though as always, it'll be rare to change anyones opinion, but it can happen). Asserting that Newcrons or Primaris or whatever don't exist (going beyond some memes) in canon because you don't like them is a very different matter.




> For that matter, while we're on the subject of things between which there are significant differences, there's a pretty big one between "Oh hey, did you know about [obscure thing] that talks about X?" and "Your version of stuff is wrong. stop fracturing the community you terrible person."
> 
> As for why we're discussing it... because the sharing of ideas and stories is fun and has remained so for the past several thousand years?


There's also a pretty big difference between people asserting that their personal canon is the same as the actual 40k canon. Everyone's personal 40k canon is different, but the baseline cannot be argued. Share your ideas all you want, but don't be surprised when people point out where your _ideas_ contradict *facts* *Established Canon*.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Not really, since I don't care if people don't like being corrected. Being wrong and/or distributing incorrect information should be corrected. Use your imagination on stuff that doesn't already have in universe explainations/facts/statements/reasons. If it's a community of people who are all absorbed in their own version of 40k and not interested in how things actually are, then outside of playing games, no, we probably wouldn't get on and wouldn't really interact or say much other than rolling our eyes at each other across the painting table.


Well too bad, your "hardtruth, don't care about feelings" attitude isn't impressive or welcome anywhere. its just shouting at everyone to do everything by the book, and no matter how much you don't care, people don't care that you don't care and thus will be push back against you anyways, its not some righteous cause its just being stubborn and inflexible. You don't get a pass for not caring about peoples feelings just because you have a point. Being correct is not a substitute for empathy.

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## Destro_Yersul

> Nobody cares about fanfics and alternate universes, but discussing why you do or don't like stuff, why the canon is dumb or awesome is more than fair game (though as always, it'll be rare to change anyones opinion, but it can happen). Asserting that Newcrons or Primaris or whatever don't exist (going beyond some memes) in canon because you don't like them is a very different matter.
> 
> There's also a pretty big difference between people asserting that their personal canon is the same as the actual 40k canon. Everyone's personal 40k canon is different, but the baseline cannot be argued. Share your ideas all you want, but don't be surprised when people point out where your _ideas_ contradict *facts* *Established Canon*.


So... you're arguing against an obviously absurd position that nobody has actually taken?




> Use your imagination on stuff that doesn't already have in universe explainations/facts/statements/reasons.


This bit is especially ironic, given this whole thing started with the two missing primarchs. You know, the gaps that were intentionally left for people to excercise their imaginations on?




> I'm playing more games than I have in ages, and still talk and think about warhammer just as much as I used to, I just talk about it with people I like talking to.


I'm active in half a dozen Discord servers that are directly hobby related, and a couple more with at least a passing interest in the topic. I've also been hard at work down in the youtube mines, putting out videos whenever I have one ready, and I have a podcast now, so lots of warhammer stuff going on here. 

We should probably catch up at some point, actually, I haven't talked to you much recently.

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## Drasius

> Well too bad, your "hardtruth, don't care about feelings" attitude isn't impressive or welcome anywhere. its just shouting at everyone to do everything by the book, and no matter how much you don't care, people don't care that you don't care and thus will be push back against you anyways, its not some righteous cause its just being stubborn and inflexible. You don't get a pass for not caring about peoples feelings just because you have a point. Being correct is not a substitute for empathy.


Luckily I don't care about it then isn't it? We can sit here playing I don't care that you don't care that I don't care all day, but if your feeling are hurt because someone corrects you on the lore of plastic man dollies, it's probably time to grow up.




> So... you're arguing against an obviously absurd position that nobody has actually taken?


My take was that people were saying that their personal 40k had superiority over actual canon, and disagreed with that.




> This bit is especially ironic, given this whole thing started with the two missing primarchs. You know, the gaps that were intentionally left for people to excercise their imaginations on?


I would like to note that I never said anything about the 2 missing primarchs. I don't recall there being enough info to make a call either way, though Cheese does bring up a few points that suggests heavily a certain way. Until we get more info on them (extraordinarily unlikely), it will remain that way. I think basing your army on them is dumb (for multiple reasons), and that all the "unknown origin" chapters are equally as dumb (for additional reasons), but hey, people can make up whatever back story they like.

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## Lord Raziere

> Luckily I don't care about it then isn't it? We can sit here playing I don't care that you don't care that I don't care all day, but if your feeling are hurt because someone corrects you on the lore of plastic man dollies, it's probably time to grow up.


You care enough to correct people, which means your feeling anger every time you do so, seeing it as your duty to do so. which is just you getting angry over people getting minor details wrong no matter how pointless it is, because you will never correct everyone. by your logic, if someone's feelings are hurt by someone getting the lore of plastic man dollies wrong, its probably time to grow up. because someone who truly doesn't care, wouldn't care if people got the lore wrong.

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## Forum Explorer

> Not really, since I don't care if people don't like being corrected. Being wrong and/or distributing incorrect information should be corrected. Use your imagination on stuff that doesn't already have in universe explainations/facts/statements/reasons. If it's a community of people who are all absorbed in their own version of 40k and not interested in how things actually are, then outside of playing games, no, we probably wouldn't get on and wouldn't really interact or say much other than rolling our eyes at each other across the painting table.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the thing FE, they all suck. >99.99% of all fanon sucks.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about, we're talking about having a conversation around the painting table and people 
> ...


Trust me, usually correcting someone's fanfic version of stuff gets mild annoyance at most. They already know they aren't following canon, and bringing it up usually gets an eyeroll and a sigh. (Or triggering a passionate rant about why whatever piece of canon they are ignoring is bad writing and should be ignored.)  The only thing you accomplish by bringing up such stuff is making yourself look like a pedantic ***. 

I read and write fanfiction, trust me, I'm very familiar with the average writing quality of my fellow fans. But just because they suck at writing doesn't mean they can't have cool ideas. 


How is that not exactly what we are talking about? Someone talking about their fanfic around the painting table is a pretty good scenario where I'd expect these conversations to happen. 

I don't think anyone is asserting that their headcanon is actually canon. Maybe that their headcanon is superior to canon, which hey, I'd have a blast discussing. 





> Hey, that's not fanon, that's just _really oldschool_, when the Tyranids were a slave empire and the Genestealers an independent species.
> 
> Edit: my problem with the FAQs is that... over 90% of people I play with don't read them. Many have _never_ been to the GW website in their lives, most don't speak/read much English, and they certainly wouldn't bother printing out some FAQ and memorize it. Rules are in books (tm), or sometimes really old White Dwarf magazines. So GW publishes overpowered ****? That either gets shadowbanned (i.e. "Jeff, we don't want to play againts your Votann army, they are overpowered") or homebrew-comped ("Okay, Jeff, I'll play against your new army, but only if you take no more than one of that unit there and you don't use that one rule I hate"). Which is frustrating for everyone.


So old school that I didn't even know that.

My problem is that their FAQ site is down way too often. I'm all for making Homebrew rules though.

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## Drasius

> You care enough to correct people, which means your feeling anger every time you do so, seeing it as your duty to do so. which is just you getting angry over people getting minor details wrong no matter how pointless it is, because you will never correct everyone. by your logic, if someone's feelings are hurt by someone getting the lore of plastic man dollies wrong, its probably time to grow up. because someone who truly doesn't care, wouldn't care if people got the lore wrong.


Not anger, just disappointment. It's really easy to look stuff up, now more than ever, so why people choose to be wrong confuses me.




> Trust me, usually correcting someone's fanfic version of stuff gets mild annoyance at most. They already know they aren't following canon, and bringing it up usually gets an eyeroll and a sigh. (Or triggering a passionate rant about why whatever piece of canon they are ignoring is bad writing and should be ignored.)  The only thing you accomplish by bringing up such stuff is making yourself look like a pedantic ***. 
> 
> I read and write fanfiction, trust me, I'm very familiar with the average writing quality of my fellow fans. But just because they suck at writing doesn't mean they can't have cool ideas. 
> 
> 
> How is that not exactly what we are talking about? Someone talking about their fanfic around the painting table is a pretty good scenario where I'd expect these conversations to happen. 
> 
> I don't think anyone is asserting that their headcanon is actually canon. Maybe that their headcanon is superior to canon, which hey, I'd have a blast discussing.


Don't get me wrong, if they make it clear it's fanfic, I immediately tune out since it's not going to be worth listening to anyway. I'm talking about when people are insisting that _their_ idea of how, for example, the second war of armageddon played out is canon when there's a LOT of stuff already written about how it happened in universe and the two share little to no similar events/outcomes. It came up as someone relatively new was browsing though guard HQ's and asked about Yarrick's arm. Someone in my group _insisted_ that the orks won and that there was no further battles and would not be convinced otherwise. Now, if that's your own version, sure, why not, but it's not something you tell people asking how the whole thing came about.

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## Cheesegear

*What Is Canon? (What Isn't?)*

*Spoiler: Gav Thorpe*
Show




> By *Gav Thorpe; Ex-Designer of 3rd and 4th Eds., Ex-Lead Designer of Warhammer, Ex-Lead Designer of Inquisitor, Ex-Overseer of all GW IP, Current author at Black Library*, 2010
> It used to be the case that I had one foot on either side of the fence when it came to the Black Library. By day I was a games developer, evening and weekends saw me in my guise of swashbuckling author. One of the roles of the GW games developers is to liaise with Black Library, answering their questions and generally providing consultation. The BL editors are well-versed in the worlds of Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 so it was usually the case that inquiries directed to games dev would concern either very specific questions, or areas where the existing background was unclear or perhaps contradictory.


So off the bat, Gav says that the game designers know what's up, and novel-authors sort of have to work around _them_. Cool. So anything that in a gamebook (Codex, Campaign book, etc.) is legit. Anything that Black Library does, has to be based off of that. This may give some context as to why Graham McNeill had to write a short story basically saying that Matt Ward was dumb, but that what Matt Ward wrote about the Ultramarines had to be true, and McNeill was then forced to kind of write around that.




> The ability of an author to write within an established setting isnt about knowing every single detail of the background (though targeted research is always good), it is about understanding the style and ethos of that universe. With a grounding in the principles of that world, an author can extend the logic (or lack) to cover places, people and situations not explicitly detailed in the source material. Thats sort of the point of tie-in fiction; to expand on what is already published, not simply package it up in a slightly different form.


There's a good one. An author who writes a book doesn't really need to understand all of the background. What they do need to understand, is the tone of the setting. Your fanfic where everything is great and nothing is wrong and everything goes exactly the way you want it to...This is 40K, not D&D. **** doesn't work that way. Nobody is good guys, everyone does bad things.

If you asked me, I'd say at the core of 40K, is 'The End Justifies the Means.' The Imperials do it, the Aeldari do it, the T'au do it. Everyone in the entire setting does ****ty things for good reasons, but ****ty things nonetheless. Even Vulkan - the "Good" one - turned out to be not-so-good after all. Ciaphas Cain, on the regular, says one of the reasons he likes being a Commissar is because of the power and privileges that it affords him...But at the end of the day his role as a Commissar is to lead and inspire, and he does that, even if his internal monologue is all kinds of narcissism. It doesn't matter how or why Cain does his job - just so long as that job gets done.

So when an author writes a story where things aren't ****ty...What 40K are you reading? What 40K do you have where people are 100% "Good Guys"? ...That character doesn't exist..._Can't_ exist. You've botched the tone of the setting.




> Often folks ask if Black Library books are canon. With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. There are certainly established facts  the current Emperor is Karl-Franz, the Blood Angels have red armour, Commissar Yarrick defended Hades Hive during the Second Armageddon War.


Couple of things to unpack here, with Gav saying both answers at once.

Gav immediately says that yes, there is *truth*. Canon is real. 2010 shows it's head because Karl-Franz is Emperor. What's an Emperor, what's a Karl-Franz? Isn't Sigmar the boss? Gav even drops the bomb that has everyone howling in rage the second they read it; Blood Angels are red. Imagine if they wrote a rule in a Codex, that said if Your Dudes aren't painted red, then they aren't Blood Angels...Oh could you imagine the fury of being told how to paint Your Dudes? Wait a second...

However, Gav has also poisoned the well for everything that comes after. He, himself, has said that things are true. Okay, before we continue, Gav needs to determine what are facts. How do we determine what is a fact, and what isn't. We simply can't really continue if you're going to say something like that. The well is poisoned. Everybody stop. We can't do anything until we unpoison the well...




> However, to suggest that anything else is non-canon is a disservice to the players and authors who participate in this world. To suggest that Black Library novels are somehow of lesser relevance to the background is to imply that every player who has created a unique Space Marine chapter or invented their own Elector Count is somehow wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong.


But you don't get to say that somebody's work _isn't_ canon. That's a great start. When you do that, you're disrespecting the author, and disrespecting all of the people who read it, and liked it.

Furthermore, Gav says that the only difference between someone writing fanfic at Black Library, and someone writing fanfic on a 6-hour plane ride, is that the author has a job and Black Library, and you don't. That's unfortunately true. However, authors working for Black Library aren't ever going to publish a story where Blood Angels aren't red. Almost like there's some sort of sanctity about certain things, but not other things. You've already established that, and we - as readers - also know to a point, that that's also true.




> Whether a particular authors take on the world matches up with an individual gamers or readers is another matter. The fact that each of us is allowed to take possession of that world and envisage it to our own ideal means that it is inevitable our vision will sometimes clash with the vision of others. Such conflict does not render either vision obsolete.
> 
> In this regard it is the job of authors and games developers to illuminate and inspire, not to dictate. Perhaps you disagree with the portrayal of a certain faction, or a facet of their society doesnt make sense in your version of the world. You may not like the answers presented, but in asking the question you can come up with a solution that matches your vision. As long as certain central themes and principles remain, you can pick and choose which parts you like and dislike.


That is, when Matt Ward writes something frittata'd, Graham McNeill doesn't have to like it. That's irrelevant. But he does have to work with and/or around it, and, because McNeill is good at his job, he can do that. Conversely, Graham McNeill writes something really good, and Dan Abnett says 'I want that.' and ends up using McNeill's inspiration to write part of _Know No Fear_. Of course we know that McNeill and Abnett had a pretty strong working relationship so that's not news. The current equivalent would arguably be John French and ADB.




> The same applies to transference from Black Library back into the gaming supplements. If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the game world  such as Gaunts Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, theres no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books. And beside, there simply isnt enough room in those gaming books to include everything from the hundreds of novels  good, bad or indifferent as we each see them  so the decision must ultimately rest with the taste of individual readers and gamers.


Once more we circle back to the game designers. They seem to have ultimate sway over what is and isn't canon, and it appears that a goal - one goal - of a Black Library author is to get their stuff recognised _so hard_ that the story makes it's way into a future Codex. Presumably because "Would you like to know more?" would lead into more sales of said novel down the line.

But ultimately I keep going back to that poisoned well and taking a drink of the poison...But you said that Blood Angels are red. There *must* be things we *have to* agree on. There has to be, otherwise how does anything get done? How do we talk to each other if nothing means anything, and anything means anything? Where do we draw that line on what we agree on? What's the criteria? Certainly, we know from a bunch of interviews (including this one I'm quoting), consistency during the _Horus Heresy_ is of the utmost importance - they had regular meetings of at least three authors (usually the next three novels) in the room to plan things, and each author was strongly encouraged to read each others' works.

You, actually liking something, isn't important, and, you don't get to decide that something isn't canon...You can only try and not include those aspects in your story. But once your story brushes up against the thing(s) you don't like, you have to work with and/or around it. This is why Dan Abnett early on wrote self-contained stories in the ass-end of nowhere. He didn't have to touch anything that anyone had previously written. Everything he did, he could make up on his own, and because of that, he got an early label of "Not actually 40K." ...And that's probably why non-40K players/readers also bought Abnett's work...He more or less wrote just grimdark sci-fi with 40K-paint on.

Raven Guard were in the Damocles Gulf. Even though Deliverance is aaalllll the way over here, and Raven Guard should have nothing to do with the T'au because that's not their area of operations...Doesn't matter. It's _possible_ that Raven Guard are in the Gulf, there's nothing actually _preventing_ several Companies being there...So how do you make sense of that? Is Deliverance left undefended? What happens? You can write a bunch of stories about the understrength Raven Guard without their Chapter Master, without several Captains, trying to maintain several Sectors of space...You can even write a story about how Kayvaan Shrike was ad-hoc elected Chapter Master in the field, and how that does not sit right with those back on planet who didn't get a vote.

...There's so much you can do, even with something frittata'd like Raven Guard in the Damocles Gulf. It doesn't make sense, it's kind of stupid. But it did happen and what do you do with that? How do you write an Ultramarines story after Matt Ward writes so much dumb stuff...Dunno. You just figure it out.


*Spoiler: ADB*
Show




> By *ADB, currently the best or second-best author Black Library has*, 2011
> Part of the problem is that 40K lore is essentially divided into 3 sub-companies all producing material, and as with all things, quality, themes, perceptions and intentions can be completely different. Games Workshop produces the games and core setting lore, with 30ish years of history, releasing a couple of sourcebooks a year. Black Library is the publishing arm, mostly centred on novels, and still very new in terms of producing canon. The third is Forge World, an allied design studio and miniature production company.
> 
> Note: An even more recent addition is Fantasy Flight Games, who produce the 40K roleplaying game, but even now, Im not sure just where they stand. Like I said, this is a complicated hellhole of treachery, madness and deceit. As it stands, the official line is that there are three factions empowered to create IP (an exact quote), and thats GW, BL and FW. Given that the 40K RPG is mostly made by folks working in or around the main three companies, I think its fair to say that its lore counts as canon, too.


As always, there's _so much stuff_ to read that nobody can really read it all. How does anyone write anything coherant? ...Well, as Gav Thorpe said, you ask somebody.

Crowd-sourcing information has never been easier. There's not just one, but _two_ wikis dedicated to 40K knowledge, and both of them make sure to point out when something is inconsistent - turns out that there's nowhere near as many inconsistencies as you think. Nothing really contradicts anything in real-time. But the status quo does change, often and regularly.




> I got it wrong myself, right up until I was in a meeting with the companys Intellectual Property Manager  a situation I find myself in several times a year, as part of the Horus Heresy novel series team. When I was specifically asking about canon, he replied with something Ive tried to take to heart: Its all real, and [n]one of its real.
> It was a bit of an epiphany, to tell you the truth.
> 
> In short, the belief is usually that the design studio has precedence, and everything else isnt canon. Thats actually wrong, but several aspects reinforce the misjudgement, not least that a few top brass quotes have been poorly phrased or taken out of context; some novelists wildly diverging from the source material for reasons apparent to no one but themselves; and the fact that the design studio has 30 years of history where it was essentially the sole source of canon. Its products are the foundation for the whole license  its the source, the core, the chewy nougat centre at the heart of it all. With the weight of history and its place as by far the most widespread, its published lore reaches the most eyes and ears.
> 
> I dont begrudge that. In fact, in 98% of situations, I do my level best to cleave to whatever design studio sourcebook ties into what Im writing. Im an unashamed fanboy (you should see me fall to gleeful pieces in Horus Heresy meetings), and Ive spent 20 years loving the 40K universe. Im in this to add to it, to explore it, to tell stories within it  not to change it to Hell and back on some sneering authorial whim.


So for a long time, there were no novels. Or at least, no novels worth reading. You read the Codecies, and that's the extent that your knowledge needs to be. However, in the last 20 years, that's changed. ADB believes that the novels are definitely worth reading and definitely count as part of the Universe - certainly, he's an author, he would say that. But again, he brings up that the _Horus Heresy_ is special. The canon surrounding the Heresy is planned, it's intentional. When somebody drops a hint to the Lost Primarchs, you can bet your arse it has editorial approval, along with the nodding approval of _at least two_ other authors, who know have to know what you just did.

Furthermore, your job is not to change anything. Only add. If something happens, you roll with it. Explore and add. Never change.

This is one of those great times to bring up Female Space Marines:

If somebody had said that whilst Cawl was making Primaris Marines, he found a way to take female Neophytes and get them through the process. Most people would be on board. Starting in M42 and Guilliman arisen, you've added Female Marines to the story. Everything that happened, still happened. But starting from now, we can tell a few more stories that we couldn't tell before.

If you want to go all the way back to day dot, and insert Marines into the Thunder Warriors, and go from there. You're gonna have lots of problems. You have to basically rewrite the entirety of the setting, and of course you're gonna need to address that if female Space Marines exist, then Sisters of Silence and the Sororitas are basically pointless - both on a conceptual level, and in the narrative itself - which undercuts Goge Vandire, which changes the entirety of the modern Ecclesiarchy... You're gonna have problems, and those problems don't go away by calling people bigots.

Once again, Frauka's limiter. We have to believe that it's limited to _Ravenor_, and those novels only. There's something actually special about it that can't be replicated. You _can_ replicate if you want, for your self-contained story. But we generally have to stay away from it if we want the Universe to make sense. When somebody writes something you don't like, you try not to touch it. But you do have to acknowledge it.




> Black Library can suffer more than most when it comes to terms of whats official and what isnt, for two reasons. Firstly, at its inception and during the first few years, it seemed unapologetically non-canon, and from my (limited) perception, it didnt seem to try to be anything else. It was separate from the design studio, and that was that. Times have changed, but were lingering in the aftermath. Like hotel room stains of dubious origin, bad things can stick, and stick hard.


Yes. Grognards can't adapt. We know this. We say stuff like "Welcome to 9th." or "Go back to 5th." or "The future is now, old man."

Next you'll have people saying we don't actually know anything about the Lost Primarchs. Oh wait we know quite a bit to tell stories with.




> Secondly, like any publisher, Black Library releases work from a host of different people, each with their own perceptions and preferences. Because of the sheer amount of material released, conflicts arise between what seem like established facts. One author has a weapon firing one way, and another author describes its mechanics completely differently. Is there an official stance? No, on a lot of in-universe stuff, theres usually not. Interpretation and imagination within the framework is the name of the game. The issue is when people consider that a flaw, not a feature. Its supposed to be an open invitation to creative freedom, but instead its often disparaged as a way to hide mistakes or lore clashes.
> (Dont get me wrong, I know mistakes do occur. Having loose canon is no excuse for crappy research or poor writing, and I would never suggest otherwise.)


Fantastic. ADB says authors write things differently, and mistakes are made sometimes. Having different interpretations on mechanics on how something works is often fine. After all, the Necrons and the Aeldari both have an event called the War In Heaven. This was probably a mistake. However, that mistake was apparently caught very early on, and now it's been written that it almost feels like two sides of the same story, and if you try, you can actually make an argument as to how the Eldar Pantheon and the C'Tan are actually the same.

But then ADB goes ahead and says that there's no excuse for poor research. You actually do need to know what's written before you add to it, before you have a different _interpretation_ of it. The Thousand Sons see The Warp this way. The White Scars see the Warp that way. Who is wrong? ...Actually neither is wrong and you make a story out of it. You make a story about a Thousand Sons Librarian getting picked up by White Scars and you have their viewpoints converge. You _explore_ the possibility that both the Thousand Sons and the White Scars are _both_ correct and how do you reconcile that? ...I mean, a good author would do that.




> As a personal example, when describing the retinal/eye lens displays in Space Marine helmets, my ideas for what a soldier can see and do with his HUD are fairly divergent from most other authors descriptions. I can show lore to back my viewpoint up, and they can bring lore to highlight theirs. I can also wax poetic on why I think my version is better, and makes for a better touch in a story, blah blah blah. I dont see it as a problem, but many fans loathe this kind of thing.


If both sides can back up their viewpoint (and I mean that they actually can), then I *love* that sort of thing. It's literally a basis for a story that two things can be correct at the same time...Something, something Thousand Sons and White Scars and the Warp.




> Essentially, any difference is immediately considered a deviation. Any contradiction is automatically seen as a mistake. Although Ive been intensely fortunate with fan feedback, and my reviews are most definitely on the kinder and more favourable side of the wall, Ive seen a few mentions where someone flat-out says Ive got a specific detail wrong, purely because theyve chosen to cite a variant source as canon. Its, shall we say, frustrating, but I dont blame anyone for thinking it. Its a complicated situation.


...What's a "variant source"?

But I do like that ADB accept that fans can - and will - point out his inconsistencies if he has any. That's part of the job and you just deal with. Maybe try and fix it later.




> Ive read 40K novels that categorically violate my opinions and perceptions of how 40K works, and I have no trouble ignoring them afterwards. Similarly with some design studio sourcebooks, if I come across an idea that I find patently, uh, in conflict with my views (theres some diplomacy for you), Ill just ignore it and try not to write about it.


Perfect ADB. But do you overtly go out of your way to contradict it? Absolutely not. Whether you _like_ something or not has no bearing on whether or not it _exists_.




> Interestingly, as creators in this setting, were under no strict obligation to reference one another, and cooperation is usually self-driven. (The exception to this is the Horus Heresy series, which is extremely well-organised, and all of us are in constant communication.) Sure, editorial prefers it when stuff ties in together, but its not a mandate. Everyone views the setting differently, after all.
> I still have an email in my inbox from my editor, asking Why didnt you reference X in your novel? I also have my reply. It says, quite simply, Because X sucks, and so does the guy who wrote it. Thats show business for you.


Once again, another mention that the _Horus Heresy_ and the details surrounding it have a tight lid.

...I wish I knew what [X] was and who wrote it.  :Small Amused: 




> So, is there a consensus?
> Negatory. There really isnt. On one hand, thats a bit of an emotional kick to the balls. I mean, everything you do will be seen as incorrect by Some Internet Guy, and they have as much right to enjoy 40K stuff as me, you, or anyone else. I dont sit at my desk, rubbing my hands together, delighting in the fact that I mightve annoyed Fan #3,974,910 because I said Commander Dude Guyman zigs instead of zags. I sympathise with that irritation. [...] But on the other hand, loose canon is one of the keys to why 40K has evolved into something so completely awesome.


Good. ADB doesn't set out to make people mad, and he doesn't particularly enjoy it when he does.

Loose canon is great. It allows for a bunch of interesting stories and lots of ideas to be explored. However, as ADB pointed out, loose canon doesn't mean you get to contradict something that already happened. That's Bad Form, and possibly a sign of poor research and maybe even poor writing. At worst, as Gav Thorpe says, it's disrespectful.




> Im being dead serious, here. Yes, it can be considered a mark of IP laziness, and yes, Im not blind to the fact that 20-30 years ago, a lot of 40Ks core concepts were referential half-jokes thrown around by amateur game designers, rather than the underpinnings of a more classic sci-fi setting envisioned by ivory tower artistes. But the loose framework has allowed three decades of fresh canon to flood in, filling in the details without necessarily feeling too constrained by what came before.


Get rid of the jokes. 40K is serious business now.
Fill in the Plot Gaps, and _definitely_ fill in the Plot Holes.

...Hey that's what I've been saying is happening. Damn ADB, get your own arguments.




> Even as someone who fiercely cleaves to canon at every opportunity, Im constantly surprised by the sheer amount of white space left open to explore and set up shop.


Couldn't agree more. There's so much space and room to work. But people want to work with what's already been done. I explicitly wrote that I would've wrote the ending to the Prefectia Campaign (T'au Third Sphere Expansion) differently. Kor'sarro wouldn't have been character assassinated. But that's not actually my place and I understand that. But then if that had happened I wouldn't have Primaris Kor'sarro, a model I really like, just sitting on my shelf... I don't buy models that don't do anything - and yet there's Primaris Kor'sarro. I don't like that the Rubicon kills most people that try it, but apparently - somehow - GW has decided that nearly all main characters have survived it.

But hey, them's the breaks.

In my second fanfic that I actually wrote, I didn't change anything. I just feel that there should've been a bond between Tor Garadon and Sven Bloodhowl to give the scene - the final victory push, that is - some actual weight to it. The events still happened the way that they happened...I will try to make myself find a way to like Tor Garadon.

Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn were bestest friends. Unfortunately that seems to never have been actually shown on the page. I can see it. I can envision it. But it was never written. Wait...If I can see it, and I can envision it, but it was never _actually_ written...I can have them do anything I want, so long as I conform to the fact that they were friends, which I'm fine with doing.

Can I write a scene where Russ and Dorn are not friends and break the relationship between their Legions/Chapters forever? ...No.

My idea for the Rhana Dandra was hard-deleted out of my brain when the _Fall of Cadia_ happened, and I accept that.




> Within the possibility of endless interpretation lies the potential for freedom. What matters is respecting the source material, contributing to it, and sticking to the theme.


Respecting the source material!? How dare you!?




> And that ties right back into my first column, because no matter whos writing the details, 40K has some unalterable themes, etched in the stoniest of stone. Theyre the key. Theyre what matter most.
> Get the atmosphere right, and youre halfway there.


40K has unalterable themes? ...[Poooooop].... like what? What rules do Black Library authors need to follow? Gav Thorpe said something _really_ similar and I need to know. Ahhhh....


Now _apparently_ there are people who don't care what ADB and Gav have to say. "Death of the Author" is a thing, sure. But it's a really obtuse (?) thing to say it's a thing when the authors are still alive and currently working.  :Small Sigh:

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Don't get me wrong, if they make it clear it's fanfic, I immediately tune out since it's not going to be worth listening to anyway. I'm talking about when people are insisting that _their_ idea of how, for example, the second war of armageddon played out is canon when there's a LOT of stuff already written about how it happened in universe and the two share little to no similar events/outcomes. It came up as someone relatively new was browsing though guard HQ's and asked about Yarrick's arm. Someone in my group _insisted_ that the orks won and that there was no further battles and would not be convinced otherwise. Now, if that's your own version, sure, why not, but it's not something you tell people asking how the whole thing came about.


I'll admit I've never encountered that situation before. Where someone was blatantly trying to peddle their fanfic as canon I mean.

----------


## Mystic Muse

Yeah, I'm not trying to peddle my fanfic as canon. It's more a fun thought experiment to see how close I can stick to canon, while still doing what I want to do. 

It's not about breaking the fluff, it's about seeing how far it can be bent. 

But hey, I passed my MS-900 Exam half an hour ago, so maybe I'll have some things painted soon, which y'all are more likely to actually be interested in.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Cheesegear

> Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn were bestest friends. Unfortunately that seems to never have been actually shown on the page. I can see it. I can envision it. But it was never written. Wait...If I can see it, and I can envision it, but it was never _actually_ written...I can have them do anything I want, so long as I conform to the fact that they were friends, which I'm fine with doing.
> 
> Can I write a scene where Russ and Dorn are not friends and break the relationship between their Legions/Chapters forever? ...No.


...So I thought about it.

*1.* Russ executes XI. 7-9 Primarchs witness this, depending on whether or not Russ and XI are part of the nine. Dorn is one of the witnesses. He accuses Russ of not being his brother, and Russ accuses Dorn of having his head up his arse. Both of them are heartbroken. Russ says he was doing what needed to be done, Dorn said 'Yeah, but not that.' Dorn needs this lesson _drilled_ into him, and this is another of that same lesson. Dorn says that if Russ really is willing to kill his Brothers just because Dad said so, he really is just a dog taking commands from his master.
(You can have Angron as another witness there for this exchange, so the phrasing gets to the World Eaters)

*2.* This is why even though they are best friends, for some reason, throughout the whole Heresy, they never seem to interact with each other. The wounds are still healing.

*3.* After the Heresy when the dust clears. Dorn approaches Russ; 'Dad said I was supposed to kill Him...Instead, I put Him on the Throne.' Russ is mortified that their Father is now in a state of undeath. But Dorn reiterates that either Dad died, or the Imperium did. When it comes to duty, there _can't_ be a line in the sand, and he understands that now. Dorn regrets what he said, Russ regrets what he said. Now that they _know_, Dorn asks if they can be brothers again. Russ says they never weren't. Then they Predator Handshake.

----------


## LeSwordfish

> Not anger, just disappointment. It's really easy to look stuff up, now more than ever, so why people choose to be wrong confuses me.


I think the word "choose" is your answer here.

----------


## Spore

Oh jeez, oh boy. The thread contents does not make it easy to try and join the 40k fandom. I just stumbled upon the lore via very relaxing videos (Weshammer) and 40k is actually pretty fun once you leave the depressing reality of a typical Empire human.

But there is some sort of "oneupmanship" and "unstoppable force" meets "immovable object" in the story telling with a VERY liberal application of it considering the lore. The tropes are obvious but cranked up to eleven. But I have a few questions regarding the literary universe and where to start.

I will likely start with the Total War games and a few books (Horus Heresy has been told to be a good starting point for books, though I feel like a Rogue trader book feels more varied). The whole world feels like very human/empire focussed, with xenospecies serving as backdrop and contrast for humanity (Tau are advanced, but not as advanced as Necrons; Traitor Legions are evil, but not as evil as Dark Eldar; all of which fails to bring a contrast between both xenos factions) and I fear the universe is very oversaturated on books about humanity. I might be overthinking things though.

I am a poor man in Europe and as such struggling with an energy crisis right now so I won't buy 40k armies or even minis (mostly since I lack the space to properly display them once I would have painted them). Are there some oversized display models one can purchase and paint? Is there a provider of no-name painting colors (I don't care if the color is not 100% hitting the right shades) since Games Workshop is basically overcharging for paints?

I would probably start with an Ork vehicle since missing a few drops of color and having a chaotic aesthetic feels fitting for that honestly.

----------


## Wraith

> I am a poor man in Europe and as such struggling with an energy crisis right now so I won't buy 40k armies or even minis (mostly since I lack the space to properly display them once I would have painted them). Are there some oversized display models one can purchase and paint? Is there a provider of no-name painting colors (I don't care if the color is not 100% hitting the right shades) since Games Workshop is basically overcharging for paints?
> 
> I would probably start with an Ork vehicle since missing a few drops of color and having a chaotic aesthetic feels fitting for that honestly.


Firstly, welcome. It's not always like this, but as this is the internet there is often a mix of strong emotions, opinions, and poorly expressed text that doesn't give much room for nuance. Please don't hold that against us  :Small Smile: 

You want large-sized models? We can do large-sized models. They cost *roughly* the same as a box of smaller minis, but at least they have the bonus of not needing to be assembled so you save on glue, tools, etc.

Alternatively, try eBay. There's a very big second-hand market for GW stuff, especially if you're not all that interested in buying regularly, or just want cool stuff without worrying about it being coherent. You might have to be a little creative about fixing some of the more broken stuff, but that can be a lot of fun if you're after something wonky and rough looking, like Orks.

You want cheaper paints? A company called Revell does a line called 'Aqua Colour' which are 99% the same tone as GW paints, for about 66% of the price, depending on where you look. Vallejo are also a pretty good brand, they're not quite as close in tones but are cheaper. 

Certainly don't bother buying GW branded brushes and stuff - you can either pay £2.99 for one of their fine details brushes, or pick up a pack of like, 5 different brushes for £2 from your local art/stationary store. They're exactly the same - although if you were wanting especially good quality, look out for ones with natural-fibre bristles (hog hair or horse hair). The ones I get are about the same price as GW brushes, but they last 3x as long before shedding, bending, and going weird.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Destro_Yersul

> My take was that people were saying that their personal 40k had superiority over actual canon, and disagreed with that.


Depends on what you mean by superior. Do you mean 'better'? That's a matter of subjective taste. I'm pretty sure I could write a version of the Butlerian Jihad that would be better than the one Brian Herbert wrote. I'm equally certain I couldn't get Brian Herbert to accept my version, so I suppose he's got me there. It would still be better, but no matter how much so it is, it will only matter to me and any of my friends I can get to listen to it. 




> but hey, people can make up whatever back story they like.


Yup.




> Don't get me wrong, if they make it clear it's fanfic, I immediately tune out since it's not going to be worth listening to anyway.


Could have said this in the first place and saved us both a lot of time. You don't want to engage with that part of the hobby. That's fine, you do you. 




> I will likely start with the Total War games and a few books (Horus Heresy has been told to be a good starting point for books, though I feel like a Rogue trader book feels more varied). The whole world feels like very human/empire focussed, with xenospecies serving as backdrop and contrast for humanity (Tau are advanced, but not as advanced as Necrons; Traitor Legions are evil, but not as evil as Dark Eldar; all of which fails to bring a contrast between both xenos factions) and I fear the universe is very oversaturated on books about humanity. I might be overthinking things though.
> 
> I am a poor man in Europe and as such struggling with an energy crisis right now so I won't buy 40k armies or even minis (mostly since I lack the space to properly display them once I would have painted them). Are there some oversized display models one can purchase and paint? Is there a provider of no-name painting colors (I don't care if the color is not 100% hitting the right shades) since Games Workshop is basically overcharging for paints?
> 
> I would probably start with an Ork vehicle since missing a few drops of color and having a chaotic aesthetic feels fitting for that honestly.


Hi there! Don't worry, most of us are friendly. The Total War games deal with the Warhammer Fantasy setting, official support for which has ended beyond those games, more or less. They're fun games though. 

For books, I don't think I'd start with Horus Heresy. It's huge, and an enormous time investment if you want to read even half of it. Go with Ciaphas Cain, doesn't really matter which since they're mostly self contained, but some of the later ones do contain references to earlier works. The oversaturation on human-focused books is by design, I'm pretty sure. Some of my xenos-loving friends have lamented this in the past. 

Miniature painting is a rewarding hobby, if you ask me, but 40k does tend to be lacking on larger-scale display models. Check out ebay if you're on a budget, and don't be concerned about using GW's paint line. There are a lot of paint manufacturers, and you don't need that many paints to start out. Vallejo is great, Army Painter is fine, and I hear very good things about ProAcryl. You can use craft paints if you really want to, they will certainly work, but I don't recommend it as they tend to contain larger pigments.

----------


## Grim Portent

> Oh jeez, oh boy. The thread contents does not make it easy to try and join the 40k fandom. I just stumbled upon the lore via very relaxing videos (Weshammer) and 40k is actually pretty fun once you leave the depressing reality of a typical Empire human.
> 
> But there is some sort of "oneupmanship" and "unstoppable force" meets "immovable object" in the story telling with a VERY liberal application of it considering the lore. The tropes are obvious but cranked up to eleven. But I have a few questions regarding the literary universe and where to start.
> 
> I will likely start with the Total War games and a few books (Horus Heresy has been told to be a good starting point for books, though I feel like a Rogue trader book feels more varied). The whole world feels like very human/empire focussed, with xenospecies serving as backdrop and contrast for humanity (Tau are advanced, but not as advanced as Necrons; Traitor Legions are evil, but not as evil as Dark Eldar; all of which fails to bring a contrast between both xenos factions) and I fear the universe is very oversaturated on books about humanity. I might be overthinking things though.
> 
> I am a poor man in Europe and as such struggling with an energy crisis right now so I won't buy 40k armies or even minis (mostly since I lack the space to properly display them once I would have painted them). Are there some oversized display models one can purchase and paint? Is there a provider of no-name painting colors (I don't care if the color is not 100% hitting the right shades) since Games Workshop is basically overcharging for paints?
> 
> I would probably start with an Ork vehicle since missing a few drops of color and having a chaotic aesthetic feels fitting for that honestly.


For display models there's the McFarlane range. Action figure sized articulated models, pre-coloured or unpainted. Mostly Primaris and Chaos marines at the moment, but there are some Orkz and Tyranids. Seen quite a few people do interesting stuff with them elsewhere.

For sitting on a shelf type models they're probably your best bet, but runner-ups would be things like Imperial Knights or Ork Stompas, which are big enough to appreciate from a distance, but they are also more expensive.

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## Mr.Silver

> I am a poor man in Europe and as such struggling with an energy crisis right now so I won't buy 40k armies or even minis (mostly since I lack the space to properly display them once I would have painted them). Are there some oversized display models one can purchase and paint? Is there a provider of no-name painting colors (I don't care if the color is not 100% hitting the right shades) since Games Workshop is basically overcharging for paints?


Army Painter and Vallejo are the two general go-to ranges for paints (Army Painter's probably the best value for money, Vallejo has the most options in terms of colours available), although to be fair most ranges are better value for money than GW. To the point that I would honestly suggest somone getting into miniature painting try to avoid GW's Citadel paints where possible just from a financial standpoint (ditto for paintbrushes, glue, putty, etc.).

----------


## Mystic Muse

I like Tamiya as far as paints go. Reasonably priced and can cover a decent amount of ground with their selection.

----------


## Easy e

Greetings all,

I hope some of you find the intersection of Army Painter Speedpaints and Games Workshop's Eldar Corsair for Kill Team of interest.  If so, read on and if not steer clear and go the next message please!  

I had little interest in purchasing anything new from Games Workshop.  I dropped out of Warhammer 40K in 5th edition or so.  I had all the specialist games stuff I wanted, and a lot of older miniatures that I still use in various games.  However, some of my local players have been tinkering around with Kill Team.  The sharp eyed among you may have seen my Kill Team games have gone up on the tracker, but no real reports on it.  

Well, this led to our local wargaming group trying to run a Kill Team themed event in order to reach out to our local community of gamers and get them together in one place.  



This coming event led me to do something I did not expect to do at all.  I purchased a Kill Team from Games Workshop!  I still have plenty of old models, and had been using some older Orks as my team.  However, I was at a FLGS and saw the Corsairs box sitting there, and I also found a box of the Army Painter Speed Paints.  



With that being said, I decided to commit to painting these new Corsairs only with Speed Paints. They ended up turning out like this in the end, and took about 1/3rd of the usual time for me.  Properly prepping the models with undercoats before applying the speed paints is the key to their "success"



You can see how this experiment went on the blog here: 
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.c...ting-some.html

----------


## Drasius

> I'll admit I've never encountered that situation before. Where someone was blatantly trying to peddle their fanfic as canon I mean.


Sadly this was rather common from a small handful of people in the group, more than a few of which seemed to get their info from 1d4 chan and then hold onto it like a dying man to nearby driftwood.




> Depends on what you mean by superior. Do you mean 'better'? That's a matter of subjective taste. I'm pretty sure I could write a version of the Butlerian Jihad that would be better than the one Brian Herbert wrote. I'm equally certain I couldn't get Brian Herbert to accept my version, so I suppose he's got me there. It would still be better, but no matter how much so it is, it will only matter to me and any of my friends I can get to listen to it.


I mean superiority as in that they think their version should have primacy over what the black library authors wrote for everyone. I'm rather sure they belive their ... material ... to be superior in quality too, but then, in that meaning, they are very much mistaken.




> Could have said this in the first place and saved us both a lot of time. You don't want to engage with that part of the hobby. That's fine, you do you.





> If you want to re-write whatever part of 30k or 40k you want for your own personal canon that doesn't affect anyone else, go nuts.


I thought I made it very clear. Do whatever you want to for your version, just don't push it as canon. There's a clear demarkation between Destro_Yersul's 40k universe and The 40k universe.





> Oh jeez, oh boy. The thread contents does not make it easy to try and join the 40k fandom. I just stumbled upon the lore via very relaxing videos (Weshammer) and 40k is actually pretty fun once you leave the depressing reality of a typical Empire human.
> 
> But there is some sort of "oneupmanship" and "unstoppable force" meets "immovable object" in the story telling with a VERY liberal application of it considering the lore. The tropes are obvious but cranked up to eleven. But I have a few questions regarding the literary universe and where to start.
> 
> I will likely start with the Total War games and a few books (Horus Heresy has been told to be a good starting point for books, though I feel like a Rogue trader book feels more varied). The whole world feels like very human/empire focussed, with xenospecies serving as backdrop and contrast for humanity (Tau are advanced, but not as advanced as Necrons; Traitor Legions are evil, but not as evil as Dark Eldar; all of which fails to bring a contrast between both xenos factions) and I fear the universe is very oversaturated on books about humanity. I might be overthinking things though.


As others have said, 40k is the setting, but the story is about the Imperium and the various xenos are there as a tangent and/or background to that. That's not to say that there's not a bunch of good books and series about the other factions, but the Imperium is going to be getting 90% or more of the screentime, and marines are going to be claiming the lions share of that 90% too.

If you don't want an Imperium focus, then the HH is a terrible place to start, since it's effectively all marines all the time, that is itself then turned up to 11. There are a lot of places to start, but, I would suggest that if you have a faction you are sympathetic to, starting with their books would be a good way to get into the universe. The Path of the Dark Eldar trilogy is absolutely brilliant and one of my favourites, though without a modicum of background on 40k, I'm not sure if you will get as much out of it as you might otherwise. Cheesegear is often down on Dan Abnett since his stuff is 40k for people who don't like 40k, but it also means that it's a decent way to dip your toe into the setting without being too lost. If Tau is your jam, then I really hope you like Farsight, since that's the vast majority of their books, but they're ... not terrible on average. Ciaphas Cain is another one that, if you don't mind the Imperium focus, is easy to get into if you're new to 40k, though some of the stuff will be lost on you. For Chaos, the Soul Drinkers trilogy, the Night Lords Trilogy and the Iron Warriors Omnibus series are all beloved classics, and I would probably add the Ahriman series in there for another modern series that was really good. For a more average human take, the Shia Calpurnia trilogy is good (the first book is much better than the other 2 IMHO), though more crime noir than 40k series, but again, it'll be a relatively easy introduction into 40k as a setting. The Rogue Trader Omnibus is ... alright, but again, only loosely connected to more traditional 40k. For marines, Deathwatch the omnibus is excellent, and could probably serve as a decent enough entry to the setting, though so could a dozen others. For the AdMech, The Forges of Mars trilogy comes highly recommended by someone I trust implcitly. Orks don't really have much outside of a handful of Audiobooks (at least one of which, Prophets of Waaagh!, is very good) and the Deff Skwadron stuff, which might be hard to find now.

----------


## Spore

Tau are actually my goal for my first things to be painted, simply because their stuff seems to be a bit brighter and more colorful. Which on one hand makes for a more varied painting experience, but for the other thing it simply MISSES the flavor of the universe. For a race I am unsure if "Star Trek Confederacy, but violent" is my jam tbh.

----------


## Wraith

> Tau are actually my goal for my first things to be painted, simply because their stuff seems to be a bit brighter and more colorful. Which on one hand makes for a more varied painting experience, but for the other thing it simply MISSES the flavor of the universe. For a race I am unsure if "Star Trek Confederacy, but violent" is my jam tbh.


There's a trilogy of books (along with a handful of short stories) under the name 'Farsight', who is a Tau hero of great renown. I haven't read them, but from what I've heard they're pretty good and they're also one of the most consistent non-Imperium points of view. The Aeldari tend to be all 'mysterious' and 'you humans couldn't possibly understand our ancient ways' kind of obnoxious which makes reading about them a little bit tedious, Ork PoV is rare and their fon-et-ik ak-sents get on my nerves very quickly, but the Tau tend to be idealists and freely discuss what they're doing and why as a point of pride.

If anything, stories starring the Tau are one of the places where the Imperium is painted unapologetically as villainous, rather than the usual "everyone is pretty bad" middle ground that the fluff usually walks.

----------


## Cheesegear

> I will likely start with the Total War games and a few books (Horus Heresy has been told to be a good starting point for books, though I feel like a Rogue trader book feels more varied). The whole world feels like very human/empire focussed, with xenospecies serving as backdrop and contrast for humanity (Tau are advanced, but not as advanced as Necrons; Traitor Legions are evil, but not as evil as Dark Eldar; all of which fails to bring a contrast between both xenos factions) and I fear the universe is very oversaturated on books about humanity. I might be overthinking things though.


In 2022? ...I have no idea where you would start. I do know that at this point the _Horus Heresy_ is 50 novels long - only two-thirds are worth reading and only about a third are actually good. Point is, I don't think HH is a good place to "start", unless you're in it for the long haul.

As far as lack of xeno-PoV stories go, I'm pretty sure that that's a feature, not a bug. We, as Humans, can't really write aliens without making them "relatable." That is, the second authors start humanising aliens, they're not aliens anymore. That said, you can simply plug your chosen Faction into a search engine, and you may come up with a handful of books where your Faction is the main character (_Infinite and the Dvine_, _Path of the Eldar_, _Farsight_, etc.). But unfortunately those wells are really shallow..._Fortunately_, that means you get to make up a lot of your own stuff.

IMO, the biggest problem with Aeldari, T'au and Necrons, is that in my head, they should be entirely unrelatable. But, humans can only write humans, I suppose. That's why in the better stories that feature xenos as _secondary_ protagonists, the authors don't make them talk.  :Small Frown: 




> Are there some oversized display models one can purchase and paint?


Yes. The real sticking point is how much you're willing to pay for them.




> Is there a provider of no-name painting colors (I don't care if the color is not 100% hitting the right shades) since Games Workshop is basically overcharging for paints?


You can get _cheap_ paints from almost anywhere. Any acrylic paint will work if you're willing to water it down enough. All's model-paint really is acrylic paint with more water and the formula/ratio is worked out pretty well.

I strongly recommend Tamiya and Vallejo paints. The only reason I use GW paints is for colour-matching. As I've moved away from GW models, I've moved away from GW paints. If you don't particularly like any of Games Workshop's paint schemes on their official models, you don't really need GW paints. If a paint range has a colour that works for you, use it.




> I would probably start with an Ork vehicle since missing a few drops of color and having a chaotic aesthetic feels fitting for that honestly.


One of the biggest failings of GW is that their Easy-to-Build / Easy-to-Paint range is focussed very strictly on Space Marines and Necrons. Necrons are relatively easy to paint until you come to the character models.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

> I mean superiority as in that they think their version should have primacy over what the black library authors wrote for everyone. I'm rather sure they belive their ... material ... to be superior in quality too, but then, in that meaning, they are very much mistaken.


As a blanket statement, I must disagree. There are enough decent unpublished writers and enough bad published works that the venn diagram of 'good warhammer fiction' and 'published by BL' is not a circle. Generally though, yes. 




> I thought I made it very clear. Do whatever you want to for your version, just don't push it as canon. There's a clear demarkation between Destro_Yersul's 40k universe and The 40k universe.


Certainly, I never claimed there wasn't. What I said was that no one can tell me what I must or must not include in my version, and anyone who tries to do so is wrong. 




> As others have said, 40k is the setting, but the story is about the Imperium and the various xenos are there as a tangent and/or background to that. That's not to say that there's not a bunch of good books and series about the other factions, but the Imperium is going to be getting 90% or more of the screentime, and marines are going to be claiming the lions share of that 90% too.
> 
> If you don't want an Imperium focus, then the HH is a terrible place to start, since it's effectively all marines all the time, that is itself then turned up to 11. There are a lot of places to start, but, I would suggest that if you have a faction you are sympathetic to, starting with their books would be a good way to get into the universe. The Path of the Dark Eldar trilogy is absolutely brilliant and one of my favourites, though without a modicum of background on 40k, I'm not sure if you will get as much out of it as you might otherwise. Cheesegear is often down on Dan Abnett since his stuff is 40k for people who don't like 40k, but it also means that it's a decent way to dip your toe into the setting without being too lost. If Tau is your jam, then I really hope you like Farsight, since that's the vast majority of their books, but they're ... not terrible on average. Ciaphas Cain is another one that, if you don't mind the Imperium focus, is easy to get into if you're new to 40k, though some of the stuff will be lost on you. For Chaos, the Soul Drinkers trilogy, the Night Lords Trilogy and the Iron Warriors Omnibus series are all beloved classics, and I would probably add the Ahriman series in there for another modern series that was really good. For a more average human take, the Shia Calpurnia trilogy is good (the first book is much better than the other 2 IMHO), though more crime noir than 40k series, but again, it'll be a relatively easy introduction into 40k as a setting. The Rogue Trader Omnibus is ... alright, but again, only loosely connected to more traditional 40k. For marines, Deathwatch the omnibus is excellent, and could probably serve as a decent enough entry to the setting, though so could a dozen others. For the AdMech, The Forges of Mars trilogy comes highly recommended by someone I trust implcitly. Orks don't really have much outside of a handful of Audiobooks (at least one of which, Prophets of Waaagh!, is very good) and the Deff Skwadron stuff, which might be hard to find now.


I can second most of these, especially Ahriman. It also occured to me that I should add The Infinite and the Divine, which is Necron focused. I don't like the Newcrons, so I haven't read it, but a friend of mine who does like them assures me it's good.

----------


## Cheesegear

> The Path of the Dark Eldar trilogy is absolutely brilliant and one of my favourites, though without a modicum of background on 40k, I'm not sure if you will get as much out of it as you might otherwise. Cheesegear is often down on Dan Abnett since his stuff is 40k for people who don't like 40k, but it also means that it's a decent way to dip your toe into the setting without being too lost. If Tau is your jam, then I really hope you like Farsight, since that's the vast majority of their books, but they're ... not terrible on average. Ciaphas Cain is another one that, if you don't mind the Imperium focus, is easy to get into if you're new to 40k, though some of the stuff will be lost on you. For Chaos, the Soul Drinkers trilogy, the Night Lords Trilogy and the Iron Warriors Omnibus series are all beloved classics, and I would probably add the Ahriman series in there for another modern series that was really good. For a more average human take, the Shia Calpurnia trilogy is good (the first book is much better than the other 2 IMHO), though more crime noir than 40k series, but again, it'll be a relatively easy introduction into 40k as a setting. The Rogue Trader Omnibus is ... alright, but again, only loosely connected to more traditional 40k. For marines, Deathwatch the omnibus is excellent, and could probably serve as a decent enough entry to the setting, though so could a dozen others. For the AdMech, The Forges of Mars trilogy comes highly recommended by someone I trust implcitly. Orks don't really have much outside of a handful of Audiobooks (at least one of which, Prophets of Waaagh!, is very good) and the Deff Skwadron stuff, which might be hard to find now.


Both the _Path of the-_, _Eldar_ and _Dark Eldar_, come highly recommended to me. I can attest to the Dark Eldar being good. Maybe one day I'll read the Eldar one...Maybe. It's on my list...Just very, very, very far down and tends to go lower.

Dan Abnett writes great stuff. It doesn't really tell you anything about 40K, but it does tell you the tone of the setting, probably better than ADB does. His more recent stuff is pretty good - except _Pariah_, avoid that.

I can recommend _Farsight_. It doesn't hold a candle to the better stuff. But it isn't bad, and for Black Library, that actually _is_ a compliment.

Ciaphas Cain I strongly recommend - especially for newer readers. It's...Fun (?), I suppose is the word, and that makes it meme-y and accessible. But it's not afraid to go into the GrimDark when it needs to, and it tends to avoid lingering too long around topics where "The Imperium is Bad Guys." There is a surprising amount of depth to the story if you actually know what you're reading, but, if you don't know what you're reading, the novel doesn't dwell on things. However Cain quickly becomes...Pulpy (?) if you start reading anything by the better authors.

...Hey! Soul Drinkers aren't Chaos...You'd know that if you'd read it  :Small Tongue: 
...But yeah you've already mentioned _Night Lords_ and _Ahriman_ and those are the two best ones by far - by far. Read those two first and we'll talk about Iron Warriors and Word Bearers later.

I wouldn't recommend _Shira Calpurnia_. I would, however, recommend _Atlas Infernal_ - it's got a bit of everything. However I would recommend reading AI before Ahriman. Similarly, with a bit of everything; _The War of the Beast_. It bounces around a lot and touches on a bunch of stuff about how the Imperium does - and more importantly, doesn't - work. However, the quality in WotB varies wildly, and like the Heresy, because it's bouncing around everywhere, like at least a third of the story is irrelevant unless you're into that sort of thing. Can recommend the _Rogue Trader_ books, but very much in the same way that I might recommend Abnett's stuff; It's good _fiction_, it's not good 40K.

_Deathwatch_ is great. But if you're not looking for Marines, then don't go looking for Marines.

I'm gonna give a *hard* recommend for the _Forge of Mars_ trilogy. I've said it before and I'll say it again; McNeill isn't the best writer in Black Library. But as far as I'm concerned he nails what 40K is to me; Heroic Fiction in a GrimDark setting. People legitimately trying to do good things - and succeeding - in a setting that tries to stop them. I'll recommend nearly everything by McNeill, and _Forge of Mars_ is no exception.

I'll also give a recommend to the _Crusade of Fire_, by William/Billy King. He doesn't write a lot of things. But everything he does write is "above the bar."

Then of course I already mentioned _The Infinite and the Divine_. It's...Solid. That's the word I would use.

The _Dawn of Fire_ series has a lot of stuff about current fluff and can tell you where the setting is going. But since in 40K, Guilliman is the equivalent of the Emperor, much of the story revolves around him and I understand that just saying that 'Guilliman and/or Ultramarines don't actually suck as much as you think they do' can set old(er) players into a rage, especially if they haven't read McNeill's _Ultramarines_ books, because well, they have Ultramarines in them. ...Uriel Ventris wouldn't be The Guy if there wasn't something to him.

----------


## Easy e

Other than Dan Abnett Inquisitor stories, are there other books that are more recent that fit that style?  I prefer reading Inquisition focused books, but the ones for Dark Heresy were dire.  Got any other, more recent suggestions?

----------


## Cheesegear

> Other than Dan Abnett Inquisitor stories, are there other books that are more recent that fit that style?  I prefer reading Inquisition focused books, but the ones for Dark Heresy were dire.  Got any other, more recent suggestions?


Ones that spring to mind are:
*Atlas Infernal.* One of the only stand-alone books I can think of, and it's quite good. Czevak is totally fine with throwing people under the bus and what's wrong with Space Marines picking up Chaos Artefacts if it helps us _win_? Czevak doesn't understand your problem.

_The Horusian Wars._ Not John French's best work (that's _Ahriman_, if you're asking). But if you're chasing Inquisitors, then this series is the closest you're gonna get to _Ravenor_ - not _Eisenhorn_, Eisenhorn is uhh...Next level grimdark. The only thing that comes even remotely close to Eisenhorn is...

*The Inquisition War.* The OG*. Try to find the oldest copy you can. Reprints and digital editions have been...Edited. Modern readers of The Inquisition War will likely find that nothing really makes sense (What do you mean you can just go to a Demon World? Wait...Callidus Assassins can turn into Genestealers now? ...Just...It was 2nd Ed. There was no canon yet), and why is everything awful. Not GrimDark and edgy. _Actually_ awful. Welcome to 2nd Ed.

*Watchers of the Throne.* Not Inquisition. But close enough. Chris Wraight does a good job and I enjoy reading his work. Hmm...Not really Abnett's _style_ though. Wraight writes more like McNeill and that means I will approve.
EDIT: It's Custodes and Sisters of Silence.

*The Crusade of Fire.* Again, not Inquisition. But it's an ensemble cast featuring Macharius and his bodyguards - including Battle Leader Logan Grimnar, yes that one. I've already recommended this.
EDIT: Mostly a Guard novel, 'cause it's Macharius, obviously.

*Forge of Mars.* Probably the _least_ like what you're after, and that's why I've put it last. But again, a wide cast with an array of power levels and personalities, and gives an insight on how Imperial starships work (mostly via basically-slavery). I think McNeill had a couple of good ideas left over from _Mechanicum_ and just kept going on that train.

*It's not the OG. But Ian Watson did also write the actual OG and Inquisition War can legitimately be seen as a sequel to _Space Marine_. But Space Marine has not aged well and is basically unreadable - figuratively, and I think, literally 'cause it's one of the few novels that Black Library actually doesn't endorse anymore - the reasons are probably obvious if you've read it.

----------


## Wraith

> Other than Dan Abnett Inquisitor stories, are there other books that are more recent that fit that style?  I prefer reading Inquisition focused books, but the ones for Dark Heresy were dire.  Got any other, more recent suggestions?


There is also the *Vaults of Terra* series - currently up to two books, only one of which I have read (The Carrion Throne) but I very much enjoyed it. It's about 70:30 mix of Inquisitor and Custodes, so it blends investigation and interrogation with more traditional superhuman stabbery, and is one of the few non-Ciaphas Cain novels that ends on a note that approaches hopeful rather than grim and nihilistic.

----------


## Lord Torath

I'm very surprised no one here has recommended The All Guardsmen Party.

It's a campaign journal, so definitely not canon, but it gives a very good feel for the setting from the Grunt's point of view.  Also it's utterly hilarious.   :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Easy e

Thanks for the suggestions.  I will see what I can find.    

I have read the Inquisition War ..... when it first came out even!  <gasps and shudders from across the audience>

----------


## Cheesegear

> I'm very *surprised no one here* has recommended The All Guardsmen Party.
> 
> It's a campaign journal, so *definitely not canon*


After the conversation we just had, you're...Surprised...That no-one has mentioned a fanfic? Okay.  :Small Confused:

----------


## Lord Raziere

> I'm very surprised no one here has recommended The All Guardsmen Party.
> 
> It's a campaign journal, so definitely not canon, but it gives a very good feel for the setting from the Grunt's point of view.  Also it's utterly hilarious.


I've already read that, so I'll show a recommendation of my own:
If the Emperor Watched the Text to speech device

its this SV fanfic thread where the 30k Emperor watches the TTS series as a foretelling of the future with the primarchs and their reactions to various events. it peters out around episode 20 though, but its good if you want to experience TTS again with an additional layer to it.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

> I'm very surprised no one here has recommended The All Guardsmen Party.
> 
> It's a campaign journal, so definitely not canon, but it gives a very good feel for the setting from the Grunt's point of view.  Also it's utterly hilarious.


Does that have an ending yet? The last time I looked, it wasn't finished being written.

----------


## Lord Torath

All the posted chapters are finished (The Inquisitorial Penal Legion only had about half of it up for a long while, but it's all there now), although not all of them have been edited.

It sounds to me from reading the last one that there is at least one more chapter, but given Shoggy's recent posting schedule, I wouldn't hold my breath for when he'll get it posted.

We have a discussion thread for it here in the Playground (The All Guardsmen Party), but it's been dead for a while, so talk to a Mod before posting in it.

----------


## Easy e

So, who here has tried any W40K RPGs?  What did you think?  

I am familiar with all the FFG ones, but never really got to play any beyond play-by-post that was pretty light on the rules.

----------


## Drasius

> ...Hey! Soul Drinkers aren't Chaos...You'd know that if you'd read it 
> ...But yeah you've already mentioned _Night Lords_ and _Ahriman_ and those are the two best ones by far - by far. Read those two first and we'll talk about Iron Warriors and Word Bearers later.


I _*haven't*_ read Soul Drinkers since the period where I was playing there wasn't a copy for sale, only after I left and slowly started getting through my backlog did they release a new version. It's on my list of stuff to grab whenever I get back to the shop to start a new backlog though, but it's going to have to wait in line behind the Culture and Lensman stuff that's been on my list for much longer.

I haven't read the WB series either, for the same reasons, but I've also never heard a kind word said about it, so it didn't get a mention, whereas the others all get (deservedly) talked up for being quite good.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

> So, who here has tried any W40K RPGs?  What did you think?  
> 
> I am familiar with all the FFG ones, but never really got to play any beyond play-by-post that was pretty light on the rules.


I like them. I've only played the FFG ones, but have always had fun.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> I like them. I've only played the FFG ones, but have always had fun.


I've tried playing them but the games I got never got far.

the books are good references for the current freeform 40k game I have going now though, useful for contrasting the 40k universe with people from outside it and giving information about the setting.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

I've got a Rogue Trader PbP I've been running for a few years now. The system has its quirks and pitfalls, to be sure, and tends to devolve into rocket tag rapidly at higher power levels, but I like a lot of the core mechanics.

----------


## Grim Portent

The FFG RPGs are collectively probably my favorite RPGs in general, something about them just clicks with me. Couple of small complaints here or there, mostly balance being too out of whack in Dark Heresy, character progression being a bit too type-cast in Black Crusade, Ogryn being abysmally weak in Only War and so on. Little things.

----------


## Wraith

In completely unrelated news, it turns out that Corswain, Chapter Master of the Dark Angels is actually Obi-Wan Kenobi. (Scroll down for the unhelmeted version).

I like the model, I think I'd like it a lot more if it weren't just a CAD-copy of Master Balthazar, a renowned and unique hero feels like he should have his own pose/stance/whatever. Or if they were going to steal a pose, pick a model from a different Chapter so that the wargear, heraldry, gewgaws and such doesn't make it so obvious. But then, this isn't the first time GW have cribbed from an old model to make a 'new' one - they did the same thing to Sigismund, after all.




> So, who here has tried any W40K RPGs?  What did you think?  
> 
> I am familiar with all the FFG ones, but never really got to play any beyond play-by-post that was pretty light on the rules.


I've played a lot of Dark Heresy (1st edition). It's by far the best of the 40k RPGS, although you need to play by the errata otherwise it gets pretty janky pretty fast.

Rogue Trader is pretty much identical to Dark Heresy, except that it's "epic level"... Which means that you play basically the same characters, but you have bigger numbers to look at. Useful if you just want a sandbox setting to unleash your competent characters upon, but it lacks the agency and tension of the lower-level game, I feel.

Deathwatch is... Kind of the same, but more so? Instead of mortals you play as Space Marines so everyone has Power Armour and Boltguns, but everything you're fighting probably has 40+ wounds so fights take pretty much the same amount of time, and it's a lot harder to justify a slower, investigation-based campaign with Space Marines whose MO is generally just to kill everything and leave.

Full disclosure: I only played Deathwatch once, it was a PUG at a convention, and it is regarded by me and the two friends I took with me as the WORST single session of RPGing we have experienced, which was entirely down to the GM rather than the game. It does leave a poor impression though, and I know enough about the40k FFG games to understand that the DW system could not have helped at all.

----------


## Eldan

Deathwatch was also some of the worst I've ever played, but I think that's just because everyone looks at Space Marine game and thinks "there is only war", so pretty much the only thing you can think to do is meatgrinder combat.

----------


## hamishspence

> In completely unrelated news, it turns out that Corswain, Chapter Master of the Dark Angels is actually Obi-Wan Kenobi. (Scroll down for the unhelmeted version).
> 
> I like the model, I think I'd like it a lot more if it weren't just a CAD-copy of Master Balthazar, a renowned and unique hero feels like he should have his own pose/stance/whatever.


I would have said the pose looks a bit more like Ezekiel than Balthazar, who has a more static "squared on to the camera" pose. And the legs are reasonably different from both.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

Also worth noting that Black Crusade's level up mechanics are probably the worst of the lot. That was the one where they started moving away from DH1 style careers towards DH2 style aptitudes, but they hadn't yet figured out how to do it in a way that wasn't godawful.

----------


## Grim Portent

I think BCs system is better than the careers of the older games, it just needs the high exp cost for 'opposed aligment' skills/talents removed to encourage more character concepts. It's silly that you can't be a demagogue who follows Khorne without being at a major disadvantage compared to any other demagogue.

The older games had the problem of some careers having access to basically any and all skillsets with alternate ranks, cybernetics or psychic powers while others had access to barely anything to broaden their skillset or concept. Problem with careers really, some had to be broad because they covered an entire sub-faction of the Imperium, while others were much more narrow in starting concept and so got less material to expand on them.

Never looked into DH2 mind you, so they might have improved on things further, but as I understand it they kept on the trend of trying to have niche protection, which is rather the opposite of my own design priorities when looking at RPGs.

----------


## Lord Torath

I've been having a blast with Deathwatch.  So far the missions my son has run us through were mostly straight combat, but we've had the freedom to plan our approaches, and there's been a fair bit of role-playing, too.  We've not been forced to fight every obstacle.  Many of the published adventures for Deathwatch have a fair bit of investigation and role-playing, too.

----------


## Wraith

> I would have said the pose looks a bit more like Ezekiel than Balthazar, who has a more static "squared on to the camera" pose. And the legs are reasonably different from both.


A good point, but that there are 3 Dark Angels' named characters with the same "sword held straight upright to the side of their head while looking over their left shoulder" minis, suggests a lack of imagination to my mind.  :Small Tongue: 

I suppose it's kind of evocative of the Lion's pose, in more than one way, but... I dunno. that would mean that the Lion is based on the ~30 year old Ezekial, and I'd like to think that GW's technology and sculpting artistry had improved since then.

----------


## Easy e

Did anyone get to play Dark Heresy: Ascension?  High level characters vs. High level threats at all?

----------


## hamishspence

> A good point, but that there are 3 Dark Angels' named characters with the same "sword held straight upright to the side of their head while looking over their left shoulder" minis, suggests a lack of imagination to my mind. 
> 
> I suppose it's kind of evocative of the Lion's pose, in more than one way, but... I dunno. that would mean that the Lion is based on the ~30 year old Ezekial, and I'd like to think that GW's technology and sculpting artistry had improved since then.


The old metal Castellan Crowe Grey Knights model _also_ had "two handed grip on sword, sword is held up over_ right_ shoulder, model's head is looking _left_" 

Wouldn't surprise me if a _lot_ of GW models have a pose along those lines.

Maybe it's something to do with _gaming convenience_ - you want it to be_ possible_ to place a model base-to-base with an enemy model - and "sword held _straight out_ like you've just finished a massive overhead swing" is not conducive to this.

So weapons are _rarely_ held by the model in a way that makes gameplay really inconvenient - they stick_ up_ rather than _out_.

----------


## Wraith

> The old metal Castellan Crowe Grey Knights model _also_ had "two handed grip on sword, sword is held up over_ right_ shoulder, model's head is looking _left_"


That's true. It's just odd that 3 of them happen to be Dark Angels. Well, maybe not odd - doing it deliberately could be a way of building a 'character' for the army, compared to the wild flailing poses of World Eaters or the graceful in-flight Blood Angels.

I would just like something more 'special' for a DA unique character, than something so similar to at least 2 other DA unique characters, is all. Or at least vary which shoulder or the way they're looking, otherwise you could end up with several characters all in a similar looking, fairly static pose.




> Maybe it's something to do with _gaming convenience_ - you want it to be_ possible_ to place a model base-to-base with an enemy model - and "sword held _straight out_ like you've just finished a massive overhead swing" is not conducive to this.
> 
> So weapons are _rarely_ held by the model in a way that makes gameplay really inconvenient - they stick_ up_ rather than _out_.


Maybe, but it's hard to agree when they have also done models like this and this to say nothing of those in scenic bases like the new Vindicare Assassin, or Captain Shrike. 

"Wieldy" seems to take a distant second place to "good looking". Please don't mistake me, I'm hoping that this comes across as a discussion rather than an argument - I'm just a fan of my characters standing out, and Corswain just looks a bit... same-y?

----------


## hamishspence

> I would just like something more 'special' for a DA unique character, than something so similar to at least 2 other DA unique characters, is all. Or at least vary which shoulder or the way they're looking, otherwise you could end up with several characters all in a similar looking, fairly static pose.


GW does sometimes do "left-handed" two-handers, it's true. Dark Elf Executioners were right-handed when they were in metal in 6e, but when they went to plastic they became left-handed.

The Adeptus Custodes Blade Champion is also left-handed - with sword up over left shoulder, left hand at top of hilt, head of model is looking rightwards.

----------


## 9mm

> The old metal Castellan Crowe Grey Knights model _also_ had "two handed grip on sword, sword is held up over_ right_ shoulder, model's head is looking _left_" 
> 
> Wouldn't surprise me if a _lot_ of GW models have a pose along those lines.
> 
> Maybe it's something to do with _gaming convenience_ - you want it to be_ possible_ to place a model base-to-base with an enemy model - and "sword held _straight out_ like you've just finished a massive overhead swing" is not conducive to this.
> 
> So weapons are _rarely_ held by the model in a way that makes gameplay really inconvenient - they stick_ up_ rather than _out_.


Now if only they applied that logic to the melee world of Age of Sigmar...

----------


## Wraith

> Now if only they applied that logic to the melee world of Age of Sigmar...


I remember in 40k, there was a brief period where measuring range from a vehicle would include ANY part of the vehicle - tips of turrets, flags, those weird pointy bits around the edge of Wave Serpents.... Ork players had about 10 minutes where they were overjoyed that their unique, trash-covered, kit-bashed trukks and wagons actually did something, for once. My brain is also telling me that at one point, in an older edition of AoS, there was a rule that models had to be able to touch in order to count in melee - not their bases, the actual models, sword-tip to sword-tip, or whatever.

Did I imagine that, or was it someone trolling? I'm sure I saw it FAQ'd somewhere down the line.... Something about Ogres being able to be placed at the back of their 50mm bases and engage a unit base-to-base in combat so that they couldn't move away or shoot, but not actually be in reach of the _model_ in order to fight?

----------


## LeSwordfish

For a while melee range was measured model to model, yes, though it was a range in inches, not literally touching. Made some models on flying bases almost untouchable, and I think the solution to the ogre thing would have been to put the attacking models on the ogre's bases.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

> Did anyone get to play Dark Heresy: Ascension?  High level characters vs. High level threats at all?


Ascension was an interesting concept, but it didn't read all that well. Everything in it was busted as hell. I only tried playing it a couple times, and it was a very swingy and inconsistent experience.

----------


## Cheesegear

> So, who here has tried any W40K RPGs?  What did you think?


*Dark Heresy 1.0.* Very good. Good job. I'm proud of you. Plays like a very lethal game of D&D. You're not limited to any one point of D&D, as playing Acolytes to an Inquisitor basically lets the GM run whatever they want. One of the biggest problems with Dark Heresy is that the players are not actually Inquisitors, and no, they can't just do whatever they want. The lethality of the game basically tells plays that you can't just storm every room and just open fire on people you don't like. Very good. However the problem that I found is that people don't really _like_ lethal games...They prefer knowing that there's a _chance_ they'll die if they perform an action; Not _knowing_ that they _will_ die if they perform an action. Conceptually, the biggest flaw of the game is that you're Agents of the Imperium, and in [current year], no-one likes being Agents of the Imperium.
*Ascension.* Don't do it. Just play _Rogue Trader_. Everything is ****ed.
*2.0.* Eh. *Shrug*. It's fine.
*Rogue Trader.* The most forgiving game. Both to the players and to the GM. You can do whatever you want. The power level is a bit high for my liking. But again, the system is forgiving to the players and the power level is part of it. Rogue Trader is by far the most accessible game there is. However you can just as easily play any RPG-in-space and it's probably better. The _Star Wars_ RPG comes to mind.

*Deathwatch.* Conceptually, it's my favourite. Since the basic premise is that of a SWAT team kicking ass and taking heads...Unfortunately, being Space Marines, you're very limited in the kind of Mission you can create because there are some things that Space Marines just don't do, and unfortunately the design space for the GM is really limited. You can run a few campaigns before you run dry. But if you like playing TTRPGs for the power fantasy...Then Space Marines are one of the biggest power fantasies you can have. You run your power fantasy for a few sessions and you're done. Like there's nothing else to do. Which is a shame that Space Marines can't actually do anything interesting. All of the interesting stuff about Space Marines comes from character development roleplaying...And you could be roleplaying with literally any other system, so why play Deathwatch? And that's coming from me - avowed Deathwatch fanboy.  :Small Frown: 

*Black Crusade.* Combines elements of Rogue Trader and Deathwatch, to create a game that has both Space Marines and normal dudes, with Dark Heresy's rules? So it's very...Bad. Unfortunately, this is also the game for edgelords and Cool GuysTM, and very few tables can run an Evil Campaign successfully; Let alone an Evil Campaign where Slaanesh is a thing. Black Crusade has some good ideas. But for the most part I avoided the system like the plague...The books were only good for stealing NPCs and putting them in other games.

*Only War.* A great idea, executed kind of poorly. After the...Scale...Of Dark Heresy - including Ascension - Rogue Trader and Deathwatch...Playing 'Just Guys' feels pretty lame. It would be a really good game if you somehow found a way to take it out of the 40K-verse and disconnect it from the other games.

----------


## Drasius

> *Deathwatch.* Conceptually, it's my favourite. Since the basic premise is that of a SWAT team kicking ass and taking heads...Unfortunately, being Space Marines, you're very limited in the kind of Mission you can create because there are some things that Space Marines just don't do, and unfortunately the design space for the GM is really limited. You can run a few campaigns before you run dry. But if you like playing TTRPGs for the power fantasy...Then Space Marines are one of the biggest power fantasies you can have. You run your power fantasy for a few sessions and you're done. Like there's nothing else to do. Which is a shame that Space Marines can't actually do anything interesting. All of the interesting stuff about Space Marines comes from character development roleplaying...And you could be roleplaying with literally any other system, so why play Deathwatch? And that's coming from me - avowed Deathwatch fanboy.


My only experience with Deathwatch was in a campaign that our squad was sent to uncover what was going on with the govenor/castellan on a hive world. Some neat investigation stuff, some good (if lethal) combat stuff until in one of our sets, our tech-marine tried to bring an old powerplant online. Rolls a 1 on a d100. Spends a fate dice for a re-roll, only to roll another 1. GM allows for a last action to only 'cause part of the hive to go up and not us. Yep, sure enough, another 1. I don't think I've ever seen such an astronomically unlikely event play out in front of me. At that point, we decided that the genestealers were more clever than we thought and rigged the booby-trap* a little too well and called it. A+ fun, would be atomised again, highly recommend.

* Funny thing was, there was never any trap, it was just our tech-marine having a moment while trying to turn the power on to the facility we were going to explore.

----------


## 9mm

Anyone else find it funny how much effort GW went into not referring to Boarding Actions as Zone Mortalis during the preview?

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> Anyone else find it funny how much effort GW went into not referring to Boarding Actions as Zone Mortalis during the preview?


Were they really putting effort in?  Zone Mortalis isn't exactly everyday terminology that you'd have to actively refrain from using.  On the other hand, I don't know why they wouldn't.

Anyway, new Guard stuff looks cool, but let's talk about that last teaser.  Obviously Dark Mechanicus, but it also seems like ol' Abby the Armless Wonder has put on a little weight.   :Small Amused:

----------


## Cheesegear

> Obviously Dark Mechanicus, but it also seems like ol' Abby the Armless Wonder has put on a little weight.


Leagues of Votann barely out of the woodwork.
Forget that.
New product.

Consuuummme.  :Small Annoyed:

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Eh.  The way I see it, not everyone is going to buy every army.  I know I don't.  GW hasn't gotten a dime from me except on rulebooks in years.  That's going to change because those field guns look awesome, but then I'm going to stop for more years until they do a new Guard release that catches my attention.  For those who do collect every army and thus get caught up in the endless tempo of releases... What the hell are you doing?

----------


## LeSwordfish

I want to caution against taking this teaser as a whole "dark mechanicus" thing - i think far more likely is some kind of big cool individual hero. 

The guard refresh looks absolutely lovely, exactly what the range needed. I already have all the guardsmen I can carry so won't be getting any more, but I'm happy for everyone else.

Zone Mortalis is different to these Boarding Missions - the new Heresy rules for it essentially allow you to use the term for any super-cramped terrain situation including 3d Sector Mechanicus boards. I was wanting to get a Zone Mortalis board put together for Heresy so might pick up this Kill Team box for the terrain and the Kasrkin.

----------


## Avaris

> Leagues of Votann barely out of the woodwork.
> Forget that.
> New product.
> 
> Consuuummme.


Model company in producing new models shocker!

Per the Codex Roadmap put out last month, next codex release is Guard, then World Eaters, and those are the only two Winter releases. So unless Bad Mech are a very small, non-codex release (edit: as LeSwordfish suggests), were probably looking at February/March at the earliest for them.

The most interesting thing for me in the release is the change in approach for the Arks of Omen books:




> Following player feedback from across the community, this series wont include extra rules for standard games of Warhammer 40,000. Youve told us that you dont want to juggle army rules spread over multiple books. No worries  we hear you.


This makes the books more like Mission Packs than the stuff released in Psychis Awakening and the other recent campaign books. Makes me wonder what is going to be in future books! Feels like a positive move though.

----------


## Cheesegear

> Eh. The way I see it, not everyone is going to buy every army. I know I don't. GW hasn't gotten a dime from me except on rulebooks in years. 
> [...]
> For those who do collect every army and thus get caught up in the endless tempo of releases... What the hell are you doing?





> Model company in producing new models shocker!


Like I said;
Invested players _can't_ keep up (or their hobby is related to their income and they're claiming hobby on tax, and that's how they're keeping up  :Small Confused: ).
Casual players don't want to.

It's a fun time.

----------


## LeSwordfish

I'm not sure I see the problem? Is something wrong with most people only buying a subset of releases?

----------


## Cheesegear

> I'm not sure I see the problem? Is something wrong with most people only buying a subset of releases?


Not really what I was talking about.
But to answer your question; Actually yes, potentially.

----------


## LeSwordfish

In which case I guess I don't see what you're getting at. The rate at which Votann, Dark Mechanicus, Guard, and World Eaters come out isn't really a problem for me, since I'm only interested in one of them. Are you saying that GW is balancing their books in such a way that they want/need every player to be engaged in every (or almost every) release?

----------


## Wraith

> Obviously Dark Mechanicus, but it also seems like ol' Abby the Armless Wonder has put on a little weight.


I first saw the 'silhouette' as an image rather than in a video, and I was convinced that it was a Tyranid, some kind of new Swarmlord perhaps. Shows what I know, I guess.  :Small Tongue: 




> Zone Mortalis is different to these Boarding Missions - the new Heresy rules for it essentially allow you to use the term for any super-cramped terrain situation including 3d Sector Mechanicus boards. I was wanting to get a Zone Mortalis board put together for Heresy so might pick up this Kill Team box for the terrain and the Kasrkin.


I was going to say the same thing. Zone Mortalis is a specific, already existing product for Necromunda, so now they're stuck with the awkward situation of it encroaching on another Thing in 30k but they can't use the words without cross-contaminating two unrelated systems.

Although it amuses probably only me and no one else in the world, "Zone Mortalis" translates roughly as "Death Zone" which is ALSO an existing GW product. In fact, it's two of them (current) and a third (now defunct). 

Words are _hard_.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> In which case I guess I don't see what you're getting at. The rate at which Votann, Dark Mechanicus, Guard, and World Eaters come out isn't really a problem for me, since I'm only interested in one of them. Are you saying that GW is balancing their books in such a way that they want/need every player to be engaged in every (or almost every) release?


I'm sure they _want_ that, but if they've structured their business so that literally every customer must buy every product to make the books work out, they need to fire their CFO.  (Also, their profit margin says they definitely have not done that.) 



> I was going to say the same thing. Zone Mortalis is a specific, already existing product for Necromunda, so now they're stuck with the awkward situation of it encroaching on another Thing in 30k but they can't use the words without cross-contaminating two unrelated systems.


Zone Mortalis was a Forge World expansion for 40k pre-8th edition.  They published a free rules PDF (this was back when they did that sort of thing) and even produced interlocking Realm of Battle tiles for it.  It's never been just Necromunda.

Also, I play both casually and competitively as the situation warrants.  Doesn't mean I have to buy every army.  I build the best list I can out of the army I have and go to town, and frequently come away Best Imperial Guard if the event is big enough to award such.

----------


## Blackhawk748

So I just tried out Grimdark Future: Firefight and... sweet god does it feel so much better than what GW has been doing. I played Infected Colonies and had fun running what was essentially a Resident Evil warband against my cousins NOT!Tau and my Totally Not a Biotitan ripped through half his warband.

And considering he cost half of _my_ warband that feels perfectly fair.

Basically, it was great and if my cousins rolls where average instead of abject trash it wouldn't have been as much of a clean sweep as it was, which is how I feel it should be.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Isn't Firefight their Kill Team equivalent?  How did you get a biotitan in there?   :Small Confused:

----------


## Blackhawk748

> Isn't Firefight their Kill Team equivalent?  How did you get a biotitan in there?


Im using it in the RE equivalence, so it's just a really big jerk. It was my Geat Hunter who is an HQ.

----------


## Easy e

One Page Rules is the new hotness that all the cool kids are talking about right now......

I am interested to see how GW responds.

Edit: Decided to add some blue text just in case.  I was not trying to disrespect anyone into One Page Rules at all.

----------


## Drasius

I haven't played a game in years and haven't picked up a brush in anger in almost as long, but jeez, this might be enough to grab one anyway:



That's a nice mini.

----------


## Eldan

Hmm. It's a nice diorama, not sure I'd use it on the table, ever. It would be really weird if you're fighting eldar or tyranids or something, and your big guy is stabbing an orc.

----------


## Destro_Yersul

I think it's intended as a display model. It's very nice, but I already have too much to paint, so I'll be skipping this one

----------


## Spore

In a side story I bought the Warhammer Magic decks for Commander and boy must I say from what I can see the flavor is ON POINT with these. To the point that some of the premade decks are basically two different deck ideas mashed together into some weird conglomerate of deck ideas.

E.g. the Imperium deck is 70% a deck that floods their enemy with a deluge of soldiers and space marines, and 30% is smartsy stuff with the inquisition, agents and other tricksters. To counterpoint that, the Chaos deck is a barely functional mix between Demon Tribal and cascading Traitor Legions. The both don't mix well, since demons don't care about humans that much, while the cascading portion needs enough fire power to start making sense (cascading allows your big spells to cast the next smaller spell from the deck, which is more or less random-ish).

Absolute flavor wins, but for proper upgrades the flavor suffers a bit. The Imperium deck works well with a Kraken, an ancient Egyptian statue, a fort full of vampires. But 40k already had copious excuses to run various genres within their novels and worlds.

----------


## LeSwordfish

Played a game of Heresy the other day, and killed Abaddon with a Champion consul. WS is much more meaningful now (the table is same as 9th ed's Str/T table, beat the enemy for a +1, double for a +2) and a Champion consul is only two wounds/three attacks but WS6 as standard. The Imperial Fists have a Warlord Trait for +1 WS against traitors (for the whole unit), and Phalanx Warders get +1 WS (including attached characters) when charged, meaning my 100ish point chump can get up to WS _8_ when charged, beating Abaddon and Sigismund and going toe-to-toe with most primarchs.

Really, Abaddon should be Eternal Warrior, and I would give him a 3++ Just Because as well. Abaddon vs Sigismund is laughably one-sided right now - Sigismund is Eternal Warrior and Instant Death, and forces invulnerable save re-rolls, while Abaddon does none of that.

----------


## Cheesegear

> [Bayard's Revenge]





> Hmm. It's a nice diorama, not sure I'd use it on the table, ever. It would be really weird if you're fighting eldar or tyranids or something, and your big guy is stabbing an orc.





> I think it's intended as a display model.


I'll be thirding my disinterest in a display model. I have no use for it, and I'd still hesitate to buy it even if I did play Black Templars because none of my usual opponents play Orks. Black Templars already have a few very nice 'Guy with Sword' sculpts and this is simply another one. That's gonna be a no from me, dawg.

Still waiting for this guy:

*Spoiler: Deathwatch Black Templar*
Show




...I want that Shield. I should go shopping for some hobby chain...Wait...How do I not have any already?

It's fun to remember that the Imperial Fists - and their 2nd Founding successors at least - were effectively Space Pirates. Whilst half the 'Fists are training with swords and being Knights and stuff, the other half are training with Axes and Hammers, and learning to breach and clear bulkheads.

----------


## Eldan

Just googling "space templar shield" brings up about 30 variations of that shield for me, from various third party suppliers. Some look very nice.

----------


## Wraith

> Absolute flavor wins, but for proper upgrades the flavor suffers a bit. The Imperium deck works well with a Kraken, an ancient Egyptian statue, a fort full of vampires. But 40k already had copious excuses to run various genres within their novels and worlds.


The Space Slivers Tyranids deck looks pretty good, though. It technically has the same problem in that it's two different deck archtypes smooshed together to make one Commander deck, but in this case they - token generation and tribal-buffs - go together a lot better. It even has mana fixing, so I think it's easily the cleanest of the sets. Definitely one I want to pick up, soon.

Then again I've barely looked at Necrons, but frankly I can't imagine that Black/Artifact could be that hard to get right, after the <INSERT NUMBER> times they're done and redone Phyrexia.




> I haven't played a game in years and haven't picked up a brush in anger in almost as long, but jeez, this might be enough to grab one anyway:


I must admit, I seem to be in the minority - I don't actively DISlike it, but I also really don't see the charm.

The Space Marine doesn't have a helmet (ew - okay, I admit that I dislike THAT) and the pose looks too awkward to include one. For it to be an Emperor's Champion, the poster-boy of the Black Templar martial pride, there's barely anything on it to make it look like a Black Templar, and certainly not enough to make it look like a prestigious, artifact suit of armour. Even the Ork is just some Ork, there's virtually no decoration or detail sculpted onto it to give it any sort of personality.

It's just a Space Marine stabbing an Ork. I don't want to be so rude as to call it lazy, but I would certainly edge towards uninspiring, even if it weren't being sold as a memento of a special occasion. It reminds me of those Space Marine Lieutenants that they give away every month at WhW events - it could have been sold anywhere, at any time, and most people wouldn't have noticed had it not featured under the 35th Anniversary banner.

----------


## Grim Portent

It being an Emperor's Champion is _why_ it's unadorned. They're supposed to be plain (humble might be a more appropriate word) compared to most other marines. Not entirely sure why, but it's always been the case.

It's a model I'm on the fence about. I'll probably get him, but chances are I won't use him for games and he'll just end up sitting with my other 'display' models that aren't actually displayed well.

...I need to sort out my display cabinet come to think of it, get a better light for it, maybe set up some sort of little diorama or something.

----------


## Spore

> Then again I've barely looked at Necrons, but frankly I can't imagine that Black/Artifact could be that hard to get right, after the <INSERT NUMBER> times they're done and redone Phyrexia.


It feels like the one that works the best. Mostly because the "deck budget" is not needed for manafixing and can instead give you bombs like Caged Sun; +1/+1 to a chosen color's creatures, your chosen land name (swamp) taps for double mana. From what I see so far is that you want a few more high end cards to truly enjoy your rewards and you have almost no protection for poor old Szarekh. If he dies or is held back your whole strategy crumbles.

I would slice in a few Madness or Cycle cards to speed up the strategy. It is like the necron. Slow, inevitable but a bit slow. Your tomb world might come alive too slowly. the decks are kind of balanced against each other but I would give Tyranids and Imperium a slight edge right out of the box. Tyranids are dangerous with mana growth and draw power blue and green shows. Imperium has enough tools to use politics to defend themselves (you want your creatures to live? just have them be smaller than my aoe nuke that just kills creatures larger than [insert random target]).

----------


## Cheesegear

> The Space Marine doesn't have a helmet (ew - okay, I admit that I dislike THAT) and the pose looks too awkward to include one. For it to be an Emperor's Champion, the poster-boy of the Black Templar martial pride, there's barely anything on it to make it look like a Black Templar, and certainly not enough to make it look like a prestigious, artifact suit of armour. Even the Ork is just some Ork, there's virtually no decoration or detail sculpted onto it to give it any sort of personality.


It reminds me of Veridyan; "But it's like the art! You like the art, don't you!?" Umm...Not really.

But even if you go back to the art, the model has made several changes...All of which make the Marine worse, not better. For starters, I don't like the huge chain and I dislike the large, red purity seal flying out the back.

*Spoiler: Art*
Show




And I don't like that instead of designing the armour like the art, they appear to have CAD'ed most of the model straight out of the Emperor's Champion model that already exists. They didn't create _Bayard's Revenge_. They made "Emperor's Champion in a different pose with an unwieldy base loosely inspired by art." Where did that huge brazier come from? What's with that chunky belt? Oh...You probably just took the existing Emperor's Champion and made a couple of tweaks...So...Nothing like the art?

...Meanwhile, Valererian and Aleya have great artwork to design off of, and GW gave them the most boring models, ever.  :Small Annoyed: 

*Spoiler: Chad Custode and His Doomer Goth GF*
Show




YES! Make artwork of those two. Just like that. I'll buy two sets...

*Spoiler: We got you.*
Show




... :Small Sigh: 
I'm not even disappointed with the early-CAD head that looks awful - I can always fix bad heads with helmets. But I can't fix well, the _entire model_.

----------


## Drasius

> The Space Marine doesn't have a helmet (ew - okay, I admit that I dislike THAT) and the pose looks too awkward to include one. 
> 
> ...
> 
> It's just a Space Marine stabbing an Ork. I don't want to be so rude as to call it lazy, but I would certainly edge towards uninspiring, even if it weren't being sold as a memento of a special occasion. It reminds me of those Space Marine Lieutenants that they give away every month at WhW events - it could have been sold anywhere, at any time, and most people wouldn't have noticed had it not featured under the 35th Anniversary banner.


It does come with helmet option (templar cross on the faceplate), but it's not shown in most previews.



As for the why the model is the way it is, it's meant to be a reference to the artwork that Cheese linked below.




> But even if you go back to the art, the model has made several changes...All of which make the Marine worse, not better. For starters, I don't like the huge chain and I dislike the large, red purity seal flying out the back.
> 
> *Spoiler: Art*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I don't like that instead of designing the armour like the art, they appear to have CAD'ed most of the model straight out of the Emperor's Champion model that already exists. They didn't create _Bayard's Revenge_. They made "Emperor's Champion in a different pose with an unwieldy base loosely inspired by art." Where did that huge brazier come from? What's with that chunky belt? Oh...You probably just took the existing Emperor's Champion and made a couple of tweaks...So...Nothing like the art?


There was an interview with the designer that said a number of changes had to be made simply 'cause marines can't really be posed like the reference artwork. 

It probably looks like the previous Emperors Champion 'cause the same person designed both.

"We talked to sculptor Maxime Corbeil  who also designed last years awesome Emperors Champion  on the models journey from concept to reality. "

"There are several differences in this Emperors Champion from others weve seen. As most Black Templar Crusades have one, and a lot of crusades are going on simultaneously, I had an opportunity to represent variations of the Armour of Faith and Black Sword Id made on the previous model. 

Theyre among the oldest and most precious relics of the chapter, and I wanted to imply that some were made by the same artificer, maybe even around the same time. But as the Emperors Champion fights in the thick of it, I imagined that these artefacts must have been repaired and modified over time."

"Although our models are usually warriors, its quite rare to design a duel. It was exciting, but took many tweaks and the help of veteran designers Jes Goodwin and Seb Perbet to settle on this very unusual pose. We had to make sure it worked from every angle, so Im glad I designed the Armour of Faith to allow more freedom of movement. "

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...-came-to-life/

I mean, if you know more about modelling than Jes Goodwin, sure, but feels like there was a bit more effort than you think went into this.

----------


## Cheesegear

> I mean, if you know more about modelling than Jes Goodwin, sure, but feels like there was a bit more effort than you think went into this.


If 'effort' is taking a model in CAD and changing the pose for _hours_ instead of _minutes_, then yes. More effort than I think went into this. You can do something very similar on your own in HeroForge; If you already have the assets - and they do - you can do a lot with very little.

_Blender_ is an amazing program - I can only imagine how good the CAD programs that aren't free, are. Make an asset, add physics - such as how a chain moves. You can now click-and-drag a brazier to anywhere, and the chain will auto-adjust itself. You then make minor tweaks to the chain if the AI did something weird.
The hard part is designing the chain.
The hard part is designing the physics so that the chain moves like a chain moves.

Once you have that down, you can make the chain any length you want, and you can have it move however you want. The only limitations to the chain at this point, is what your printer can produce.

Designing stuff from scratch is impressive. However, these days, when I look at a model, and I can say 'That's from that, that's from that, and that's from that.', I'm not impressed. I'm just not.

Jes Goodwin made great stuff in the '90s. By hand. With green stuff, wires, and a scalpel. However, in [current year] I know he uses a computer. In current year, I can search Google for .stls and find nearly anything I want, at a much higher quality, too.

*Spoiler: The Emperor's Special Boi*
Show




...My only limitation is that I can't buy a printer that could make that, and have it look that good... However, the industrial 3D printers I rung up a month or so ago say that they can do 28/32mm miniatures at $10 a pop, minimum order of 10. So...Yeah.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> The Space Marine doesn't have a helmet (ew - okay, I admit that I dislike THAT) and the pose looks too awkward to include one.


There is in fact a helmeted head in the kit. https://www.games-workshop.com/resou...ngeFeature.jpg

----------


## 9mm

> If 'effort' is taking a model in CAD and changing the pose for _hours_ instead of _minutes_, then yes. More effort than I think went into this. You can do something very similar on your own in HeroForge; If you already have the assets - and they do - you can do a lot with very little.
> 
> _Blender_ is an amazing program - I can only imagine how good the CAD programs that aren't free, are. Make an asset, add physics - such as how a chain moves. You can now click-and-drag a brazier to anywhere, and the chain will auto-adjust itself. You then make minor tweaks to the chain if the AI did something weird.
> The hard part is designing the chain.
> The hard part is designing the physics so that the chain moves like a chain moves.
> 
> Once you have that down, you can make the chain any length you want, and you can have it move however you want. The only limitations to the chain at this point, is what your printer can produce.
> 
> Designing stuff from scratch is impressive. However, these days, when I look at a model, and I can say 'That's from that, that's from that, and that's from that.', I'm not impressed. I'm just not.
> ...






either way I think the model is neat, though I think I'll paint it as a Templar and not my custom chapter as a break.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

I'm planning the shop's annual public Apocalypse game.  What do we think of this rule (given that I'm running it as a giant 40k game, not using the 2019 box set that they promptly stopped supporting)? 




> *Titanic Endurance* - In the first battle round, a Titanic unit uses the top line of its profile regardless of any damage it has taken.  If a Titanic unit is destroyed in the first battle round, it is not removed until the end of the round.


That's the big thing, but I'd appreciate feedback on the format in general, found here.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Wraith

> And I don't like that instead of designing the armour like the art, they appear to have CAD'ed most of the model straight out of the Emperor's Champion model that already exists. They didn't create _Bayard's Revenge_. They made "Emperor's Champion in a different pose with an unwieldy base loosely inspired by art." Where did that huge brazier come from? What's with that chunky belt? Oh...You probably just took the existing Emperor's Champion and made a couple of tweaks...So...Nothing like the art?


This is close to what I was thinking. Again, I really don't HATE the model, it's fine, but I was fully aware of the art it was referencing, and it's just not close to it.

Put aside the insanely small details, like the scrimshawing on the arms - I wouldn't expect any company to try and mass-produce something so fine - but there's just so much missing that could be there. The aquila on the chest? The spikes around his collar and backpack? That there's at least two more purity seals that could be added? The finials on his stomach to suggest that it's Mark V or Mark VI armour, just for variety? Just... where's the _stuff_ that a hobbyist wants to see and relish and enjoy the experience of painting, on a 99% hobbyist display model?




> YES! Make artwork of those two. Just like that. I'll buy two sets...


"GW face" should be a meme, like we used to have "GW poses" for the flat-people-with-raised-arms sculpts they used to do.  :Small Yuk: 




> There is in fact a helmeted head in the kit. https://www.games-workshop.com/resou...ngeFeature.jpg


I stand graciously corrected. I have to admit though... it looks pretty cramped there, almost like it was an after-thought. Having a sword squeezed that close to your head looks... weird? Like they just CAD'd a helmet in from another model and called it a day?

----------


## 9mm

> I'm planning the shop's annual public Apocalypse game.  What do we think of this rule (given that I'm running it as a giant 40k game, not using the 2019 box set that they promptly stopped supporting)?


The fact they stopped supporting the 2019 box set is hella frustrating, I liked the ruleset. As for your rule, its a good compromise to let people play with their toys, though personally I'd just copy the old box set and have damage added all at once at the end of the battleround regardless of unit.

----------


## Cheesegear

> As for your rule, its a good compromise to let people play with their toys, though personally I'd just copy the old box set and have damage added all at once at the end of the battleround regardless of unit.


Last time I played Apocalypse a bigger game of 40K, we played I Go, You Go. This prevented players/teams from having turns that lasted 20-30 minutes with zero interaction from the other side. It also meant that people - for the most part - got to use their toys, because everyone just chose to shoot with their biggest/best unit first. Similar with _Kill Team_, it also gives a tactical choices to be made because if the best thing on the board blows its load in the first Shooting selection, well the opponent doesn't need to shoot it. Actually, the play with your first choice, is to shoot the opponent's _second_ choice - and so on.

That's the only change that needs to be made in Apocalypse big games of 40K. You want to reduce wait times for the opposing side to as little as possible. If you can find a way to do that, then there's no problem.

How do you keep the other player/team engaged, when a player's turn takes upwards of 20 minutes? ...That's easy. You don't let a player have a 20-minute turn with no engagement from the opponent.

----------


## Avaris

> Last time I played Apocalypse a bigger game of 40K, we played I Go, You Go. This prevented players/teams from having turns that lasted 20-30 minutes with zero interaction from the other side. It also meant that people - for the most part - got to use their toys, because everyone just chose to shoot with their biggest/best unit first. Similar with _Kill Team_, it also gives a tactical choices to be made because if the best thing on the board blows its load in the first Shooting selection, well the opponent doesn't need to shoot it. Actually, the play with your first choice, is to shoot the opponent's _second_ choice - and so on.
> 
> That's the only change that needs to be made in Apocalypse big games of 40K. You want to reduce wait times for the opposing side to as little as possible. If you can find a way to do that, then there's no problem.
> 
> How do you keep the other player/team engaged, when a player's turn takes upwards of 20 minutes? ...That's easy. You don't let a player have a 20-minute turn with no engagement from the opponent.


Did you do that in every phase? Can definitely see the advantage for shooting, but suspect it would slow down rather than speed up movement. How did you handle the combined turn meaning that melee units fight half as much?

(Assuming that by I go you go you mean alternating activations within a phase. I go, you go is typically assumed to mean the current turn order of 40k!)

I personally feel the two big innovations in Apocalypse were alternating activations, which can be simulated as above, and moving damage to end of turn. In the past Ive experimented with shunting damage to end of turn in normal 40k (and as 9mm suggests), but its a lot of extra book-keeping, so Cheesegears solution of alternating activations in some or all phases should work well enough.

----------


## Cheesegear

> but suspect it would slow down rather than speed up movement.


I don't see how it could.




> How did you handle the combined turn meaning that melee units fight half as much?


...We didn't care? Because Fighting half as much makes the game go faster. And when you've got 5K+ on the board, anything that makes the game go faster is a good thing.


As always, the only thing that ever slows the game down is players not knowing what to do when it's their turn to do something. Your opponent's turn is for thinking. Your turn is for doing.

----------


## Avaris

> I don't see how it could.


Movement as a phase normally only requires the active player to do stuff: part of the reason shooting and combat benefit from alternating is that the other player still needs some input and interaction. Normal play you can quickly move from moving one unit to moving the unit next to it: if you alternate it it is being constantly interrupted! Maybe not enough to be noticeable in any one action, but little added bits of time might add up. 





> ...We didn't care? Because Fighting half as much makes the game go faster. And when you've got 5K+ on the board, anything that makes the game go faster is a good thing.


Melee units fighting half as much essentially halves their theoretical damage output over the course of the game, potentially making them overcosted. But as you say, speeds things up, so possibly a reasonable tradeoff!

----------


## Cheesegear

> Normal play you can quickly move from moving one unit to moving the unit next to it


Normal play your opponent can quickly move their unit the instant you finish moving yours. And you can instantly start moving your units they finish moving theirs.

The question is; Are you paying attention? Whilst your opponent is moving their 5, 10-model unit...What are you doing? Have you got your thumb up your butt or are you already making decisions in your head? There shouldn't be any delay. I guess that's something you learn when you play with chess clocks. Once you have that skill, you use it even where there aren't chess clocks.

What is the time between your opponent taking their hand off their tenth model, and you moving your first model? If it's more than a couple of seconds, somebody is slow-playing.

Basically; If the light turns green, how long until the car behind you honks their horn?




> Maybe not enough to be noticeable in any one action, but little added bits of time might add up.


Having played the mechanic three times...The only slow parts of the game are players. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if you're _already_ moving your first model _before_ they've finished their entire unit. You know where the unit is, you know how far it can move, and you know how unit coherency works. Once your opponent moves the first model of the unit, there's only so much the rest of the unit can do. So as long as you aren't interfering with your opponent's movement, you can probably move your unit, too at the same time - especially if it's a single-model Character.




> Melee units fighting half as much essentially halves their theoretical damage output over the course of the game, potentially making them overcosted.


On a 12x8' board melee units are already overcosted.

----------


## Adrastos42

> I'm planning the shop's annual public Apocalypse game.  What do we think of this rule (given that I'm running it as a giant 40k game, not using the 2019 box set that they promptly stopped supporting)? 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the big thing, but I'd appreciate feedback on the format in general, found here.


I've not actually played any big games in the current edition so I don't feel qualified to comment on specifics, but this seems reasonable to me?

The Titanic Endurance rule is definitely a good call, having damage applied at the end of a turn so your big centrepiece models get at least a brief time to shine before being shot off the table was one of my favourite changes from the 2019 apocalypse (RIP). I did also really like the risk/reward mechanic of damage not being calculated (or saves not being rolled, or something, can't remember exactly) until the end of the turn, so you had to risk overkill to be sure the Hierophant was actually going down, but that's more of an ask to implement in a separate ruleset.

You've preempted my other suggestion with the silence the big guns mission- my favourite bit of silliness in apocalypse, especially multi-table games, is actually getting to use the full range of your artillery (or hunter-killer missiles back when they had unlimited range) to target something on the other side of the room. Building it into a mission with specific artillery is probably a much better implementation as it lets everyone get in on the fun, not just the Guard player who brought five Basilisks:D

----------


## Renegade Paladin

I mean, since the Imperial side is on offense, it's going to be five Basilisks.   :Small Big Grin:   But the Counterbattery Fire rule is there to at least make it somewhat sporting.  We have a terrain piece converted out of a dollar store pirate base toy; it's a giant skull shaped rock with a big cannon poking out one eye.  I've scrawled it with Orky graffiti and wrote this datasheet for it, and the defenders will get it as part of their setup to make sure they have at least one suitable thing.

----------


## Lord Torath

My son's excited about the new Imperial Guard infantry models.  He plans to turn his existing ones into a PDF force and use the newer ones for his IG army.  Except for the sentinels.  He bought a bunch of the old ones since he doesn't like the newer ones.  

He wants the new Rogal Dorn tank, and is again amazed at how big his Baneblade is compared to a Leman Russ...

----------


## Easy e

How mad is Leman Russ that Dorn's tank is bigger?

----------


## Wraith

Could be worse; the Ferrus Mannus tank is about the same size, except that it's had the turret removed from the top.....

----------


## Renegade Paladin

So.  New detachment just dropped.

----------


## Hootman

Am I mistaken, or does this detachment make all other detachment types pointless? With the exception of Patrols and Super Heavy Auxiliaries, I guess it would be?

It's been a long time since I had to remember how detachments worked, but I've been on a model-building kick all week pretty much out of nowhere, so maybe it'll matter in the not-too-distant future...

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> Am I mistaken, or does this detachment make all other detachment types pointless? With the exception of Patrols and Super Heavy Auxiliaries, I guess it would be?
> 
> It's been a long time since I had to remember how detachments worked, but I've been on a model-building kick all week pretty much out of nowhere, so maybe it'll matter in the not-too-distant future...


Pretty much, yeah.  It especially renders the Superheavy Detachment obsolete; why pay 6CP when you can toss in one HQ and pay 0?   :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Wraith

From what I can remember, you can't make a Patrol Detachment (which allows you a minimum of 1 compulsory unit rather than 3) or a Brigade Detachment (Up to 5 HQ and up to 8 Elites), but frankly I don't think I've ever seen anyone use the latter so it's hardly going to matter. Technically you can't run a Fortification Network (1 compulsory Fortification) either, but then that would only be relevant if you wanted to run a Patrol + Fort Net at the same time.

Looks like this is the "to hell with it, just bring whatever you like" meta. Unless you're playing as Custodes or Knights of course, in which case you might struggle to get 3 compulsory units in small-ish games but I imagine it could be done.

----------


## DaedalusMkV

> Pretty much, yeah.  It especially renders the Superheavy Detachment obsolete; why pay 6CP when you can toss in one HQ and pay 0?


Amusingly, it also essentially renders another rule they're introducing in the same book obsolete. Why pay CP to take more of units that are limited per Detachment... When you can just take two or three 0 CP Detachments with basically no restrictions instead?

Were you planning on taking at least 9 non-HQ units? Yes, because every army does that? Congrats, just take whatever. Restrictions can all just go away. They probably served no purpose anyways.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

Assuming you're allowed to take more than one of these.  The talk of specific allied detachments suggests that detachment mixes are going to be far more prescriptive to make up for the freedom of this detachment type.

Edit:  In fact, it specifically says so.  


> Many powerful leaders can only be taken once per Detachment  and with *only the one Arks of Omen Detachment available*, youd be unable to take more.

----------


## Gwynchan'rGwyll

So is this the last-gasp "why bother pretending to care about balance"  stage of 9th?

----------


## Blackhawk748

> So is this the last-gasp "why bother pretending to care about balance"  stage of 9th?


9th had a stage where that wasn't the norm?

----------


## DaedalusMkV

> 9th had a stage where that wasn't the norm?


No, they've been pretending to care about balance the entire time - see the frequent balance dataslates and repeated extremely early nerf cycle for every codex release ever.

Pretending to care isn't the same as caring, but they did pretend. If they actually cared maybe we wouldn't have needed day-1 (or sooner!) nerfs to 4 codecies in six months and inevitable massive nerfs to every codex release overtime, but they very much went through the motions.

Not like the second half of 7e, where they both didn't care and didn't pretend. Or the last year or so of 8e...

----------


## Renegade Paladin

We don't know the full context of the rules, though it does seem like this allows you to just stack up power units without sacrificing CP.  With command points already drastically curtailed, though, I'm not sure how big of a deal that's going to be; for what used to require a Vanguard or similar to pull off you'll still start with 4CP instead of the 9 that you'd have had pre-Nephilim.

----------


## Mordokai

I want to preface this by saying that I know nothing about tabletop. I am, however, an avid reader of Black Library. Currently about halfway through Horus Heresy, so I consider myself pretty knowledgeable on the topic.

So with all that in mind, my question is... will we finally see a new loyalist primarch drop in the new edition? Will Lion finally wake up? Or Russ get back from Eye of Terror? Vulkan getting back into the game? Or Khagan finally getting tired of kicking drukhari ass?

Is Imperium effed up to the point GW will finally consider giving Guilliman some much-needed help?

----------


## Wraith

At some point? Yes, almost certainly. After everything they have put into the Siege of Terra cycle, and the great shifts in the lore of the 42nd millennium following the Great Rift, they would be mad not to.

As to which one? And when? No idea. It's been rumoured ever since the second Traitor Primarch miniature came out because the sides 'needed to be equal', and now the Traitors are up to 3-to-1 (Magnus, Mortarion, and recently Angron) so...?

The current rumour is that it was going to be the Lion, however earlier today Primaris Azrael was announced so there may-or-may-not be a further announcement for this little arc and they'll move on to the next one?

----------


## LeSwordfish

I think what we're seeing now is the start of a run up to 10th edition, which some rumours suggest will be Angels Of Death vs Tyranids. I think the Lion as part of that seems reasonably feasible. (I'm also hoping for the Sanguinor to be beefed up to primarch grade to fill that role for the Blood Angels).

----------


## Mordokai

General consensus seems to go towards Lion. You know, him being the best strategist and most offense-oriented, he would be a perfect match to Roboute's more administrative side. There seems to be a lot of guessing if the new civil war is not in the making.

*cough* Imperium Secundus *cough*

Personally, I think even GW wouldn't be that petty. From a practical standpoint, another civil war would sink IoM at this point. Lion may be paranoid, but he is also intelligent enough he would quickly surmise that.

So is he the next primarch to come up? Possibly. Likely even, I would say. But from an emotional standpoint... I would like to see Vulkan or Jaghatai. Both would go a long way towards alleviating some of that ultra-depression Roboute is feeling and they are no slouches when it comes to combat.

----------


## LeSwordfish

I think we're extremely unlikely to see anyone except Lion or Russ any time soon. The others are just too niche, tied to second-tier legions.

----------


## Wraith

Many people were predicting Leman Russ during one of the last big campaign books - War Zone Stygius, which was Magnus vs the Space Wolves - but it didn't come to pass, and there hasn't been a big equivalent for the Blood Angels so they don't have the 'build up' for such a massive release as Sanguinius Reborn. 

If there's a Primarch actually coming out imminently then the Lion is the logical choice, but that's still a pretty big 'if'.

----------


## Lord Torath

> The current rumour is that it was going to be the Lion, however earlier today Primaris Azrael was announced so there may-or-may-not be a further announcement for this little arc and they'll move on to the next one?


So... bets on the first named marine character to _not_ survive the Primaris process?

----------


## Mordokai

> So... bets on the first named marine character to _not_ survive the Primaris process?


Has Grimnar crossed the Rubicon already?

----------


## lord_khaine

Urg are they now making existing marines Primaris?
Is the entire primaris circus just an excuse for making Marines bigger and shinier?

----------


## snowblizz

> Urg are they now making existing marines Primaris?
> Is the entire primaris circus just an excuse for making Marines bigger and shinier?


Yes, to force you to buy new Space Marines.

And when you have all done that it's Primaris Primarises.

----------


## Cheesegear

> Urg are they now making existing marines Primaris?


They have been the entire time?

Calgar, Tigurius, Helbrecht, Mephiston, Kor'sarro, Shrike, Ragnar Blackmane - and technically Tor Garadon counts - have all been Primarised.




> Is the entire primaris circus just an excuse for making Marines bigger and shinier?


Always-Has-Been.meme.jpg

----------


## Wraith

> So... bets on the first named marine character to _not_ survive the Primaris process?


I'd say its probably going to be someone from a niche second founding Chapter that hasn't had an update in a while and/or recently been supplanted by a re-emergence of a similar first founding Chapter.

Pedro Kantor, is what I'm saying.  :Small Tongue:  

Probably also a good way to kill off a bunch of Forgeworld-only kits that GW never has any intent on making into plastic - Sevrin Loth, Tyberos, that sort of thing. "And then they died on their way back to their home planet" kind of thing.




> Has Grimnar crossed the Rubicon already?


No, not yet. The first Primaris Marines were circa 2017 and in the SW's most recent book in 2020 he got his sled instead. That Ragnar Blackmane was Primarised instead, it was suggested that Grimnar would die during the Siege of Fenris and Ragnar would succeed him, but evidently it was only rumour.

===============

Also, this might only be a 'me' thing as I don't recall anyone else on this forum being a DA player, but is anyone else just very underwhelmed by the new Azrael model?

I've seen nothing but hype on twitter and youtube, but I just don't get it. It's virtually the same model - same pose, same robe and banner-pole, same decoration, same helmet - just a different scale and a combi-bolter which remains incredibly stupid just in new ways. I haven't seen a single converted Primaris Azrael that I like less than the new official one.

----------


## hamishspence

> No, not yet. The first Primaris Marines were circa 2017 and in the SW's most recent book in 2020 he got his sled instead.


He had the sled way back in 7e, in 2014.




> Also, this might only be a 'me' thing as I don't recall anyone else on this forum being a DA player, but is anyone else just very underwhelmed by the new Azrael model?
> 
> I've seen nothing but hype on twitter and youtube, but I just don't get it. It's virtually the same model - same pose, same robe and banner-pole, same decoration, same helmet - just a different scale and a combi-bolter which remains incredibly stupid just in new ways. I haven't seen a single converted Primaris Azrael that I like less than the new official one.


The fact that the helmet can go on the head without any problems (whereas the old model required you to hack up the Watcher to get the head separated, and then use greenstuff to fix the damage) is a good fix. I also like the head_ not_ being a shouting one.

----------


## LeSwordfish

I really can't imagine they'll actually write anyone out by saying they failed the rubicon. It's not "poochie died on the way back to his own planet" it would be "itchy is dead forever because he's not as cool as poochie."

----------


## Wraith

> He had the sled way back in 7e, in 2014.


Saving_Private_Ryan_Aging.gif




> The fact that the helmet can go on the head without any problems (whereas the old model required you to hack up the Watcher to get the head separated, and then use greenstuff to fix the damage) is a good fix. I also like the head_ not_ being a shouting one.


I guess that's okay if you want to do your own conversion and are either buying the bits, or wanted Azrael without a head... But if that's the biggest innovation that could be arranged after ~27 years, I have to say it's pretty unimpressive.

Less so now that the Dark Angels Heresy minis have been around for a few years, so you can quite easily find a winged helmet that's almost the same in bulk.

----------


## hamishspence

There's lots of very subtle changes - but I'd agree that the poses are almost identical. The idea seems to be to homage the old model as much as possible, while still taking advantage of the extra detail that computer design can put on it.

The sword held by the skeletal angel on the banner now has a skull pommel, 
the skeletal angel itself now has two bones visible on its lower arm instead of one (the one holding the sword hilt) 
the angel on the top of the banner now has a halo,
 the skull on the pistol handle now has a jaw, 
the bare head of Azrael himself now has a pushed back hood, 
the details of the DA symbol on his left shoulder pad are now different, 

and so on.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

> Has Grimnar crossed the Rubicon already?


No, but Blackmane has.

----------


## Wraith

> The idea seems to be to homage the old model as much as possible, while still taking advantage of the extra detail that *computer design* can put on it.


Yeah, that's the conclusion that I came to - Put Azrael into CAD, increase size by 5%, import some random generic pieces, and call it a day.

Honestly, it's a shame - many of the other Primaris minis have only a few actual changes besides their pose and junk added to their base, and yet they're all the better for it.

Shrike vs. Primaris Shrike
Ragnar vs. Primaris Ragnar
Heck, even Castellan Crowe vs Plastic Crowe was a huge upscale just with some dynamism and a few extra details.

I'm sad to say it, but the word I'm looking for to describe Primaris Azrael is probably 'lazy' more than anything else.

----------


## hamishspence

The banner didn't get a size increase but a size cut - it's smaller than the metal model's banner.

----------


## Hootman

> Heck, even Castellan Crowe vs Plastic Crowe was a huge upscale just with some dynamism and a few extra details.


As someone who was hours ago drybrushing the Grey Knight models I basecoated back in...June, I think, being reminded of the new Crowe by various painting tutorials made me The Big Mad.

It's a lovely model at a glance. Perfectly adequate, even. It made me consciously notice that Crowe is left-handed, while all the other GK models I have are righty-s, which is very cool, as I am also left-handed, and Crowe is my favorite Grey Knight. The Black Blade even has some neat smokey psychic magic fire on it.

Wait.

You mean the Black Blade that only Crowe can wield without falling to corruption? The Black Blade that, in the 5e GK codex that introduced him, was AP-- because Crowe very specifically constantly refuses the Blade's offers of power? And then fights 1v1 against Bloodthirsters or whatever anyways and can still win through sheer swordfighting prowess (and several rerolled invulnerable saves)? _That_ Black Blade?

Oh. Hrm.

I think I'm just gonna give my metal Crowe a bigger base or something.

----------


## Cheesegear

> Also, this might only be a 'me' thing as I don't recall anyone else on this forum being a DA player, but is anyone else just very underwhelmed by the new Azrael model?


I unironically think that Master Lazarus looks better.




> it's virtually the same model - same pose, same robe and banner-pole, same decoration, same helmet


Sometimes, the reason things were done in the past was because of limitations in technology.
That doesn't mean you have to copy them with your _new_ technology.

Mephiston looks cool as **** now (if you file down that ridiculous cape). You can clearly see that New!Mephiston takes most of its design elements from Goodwin!Mephiston. But *** damn! I don't feel like you could make New!Shrike out of pieces in your bitz box. 

I know that GW is trying to appeal to the member berries...But don't they realise that a lot of the '90s Goodwin models - fantastic _for their time_ - just don't hold up anymore, and that copying them is a bad idea? You have CAD now. You can do so much more. I know that Dark Angels are one of the more...Understated Chapters. But I think for the most part, most players are going to remove that stupid banner, and then after that he's just gonna be some guy - that's why they had to give Ragnar that base.




> a combi-bolter which remains incredibly stupid just in new ways.


So if I'm looking at it right, it's in his left hand, and it reloads on the...Left side. What?  :Small Confused: 
I know Space Marines are ambidextrous, but weapons with a directional reload, aren't. If you could design a weapon for use in either hand, _you wouldn't have it reload from the side!_ I'm Australian, so I don't know anything about guns. But I do know about biomechanics and ergonomics, and reaching over yourself to reload in a combat situation is very much less-than-ideal.




> I haven't seen a single converted Primaris Azrael that I like less than the new official one.


I haven't seen a Primaris Azrael _more boring_ than the official one. Most people try to make their Chapter Masters stand out.

----------


## Wraith

> I unironically think that Master Lazarus looks better.


I made my Primaris Azrael out of Master Lazarus, a spare combiboltor, and Balthazar's head. Of course I'm biased as I wouldn't have done it if I didn't think it looked good, but it's just such an easy and obvious thing and it looks great. According to a quick google search, I'm far from the only one who had the same idea. Despite - or possibly because of - Dark Angels being an understated Chapter, I think people were genuinely hoping for a mini with some real character, not just a remake.

----------


## Turalisj

> Urg are they now making existing marines Primaris?
> Is the entire primaris circus just an excuse for making Marines bigger and shinier?


 They've been doing that for a few years now.

----------


## 9mm

> Is the entire primaris circus just an excuse for making Marines bigger and shinier?


Casual reminder that primaris started out as the space marine range refresh before just being bolted onto the book.

----------


## Eldan

Yeah. They were just new marine models from the beginning. 

By the way, marines have been getting bigger every edition from the start anyway, that's nothing new.

----------


## Cheesegear

> By the way, marines have been getting bigger every edition from the start anyway, that's nothing new.


Yeah, but 9th Ed. (and the latter part of 8th Ed. It all started when all Marines were given 2 Wounds...For an increased points cost that had near-parity with Primaris Marines but with none of the extra stuff that Primaris Marines _got_) has been the only time when the newer, bigger, "better" models, were objectively, mechanically better than the old models (and not in the dumb "I'm gonna abuse LoS rules in a way that's not-exactly-cheating" way).

An Intercessor is not just a bigger Tactical Marine model. They have different points costs, different wargear, Stratagems that actually work, stronger Keywords, etc.

----------


## NeoVid

In a discussion about gaming history, I ran across something unexpected.  Photos of the very first minis of Fulgrim and Magnus.  Man, 40K's aesthetic really has changed over the years.

----------


## Easy e

> In a discussion about gaming history, I ran across something unexpected.  Photos of the very first minis of Fulgrim and Magnus.  Man, 40K's aesthetic really has changed over the years.


Yeah, and those were as Daemon Primarchs in Epic scale games!

----------


## Gwynchan'rGwyll

Frankly they should use that model as inspiration when they eventually give us Daemon-Fulgrim in a couple years (I have my hopes up for 2024 personally).

----------


## Renegade Paladin

The Boarding Actions rules confirm Adeptus Arbites coming to 40k, and heavily hint at more loyalist Primarchs, since the Marine rules don't simply say "you can include Roboute Guilliman."

----------


## Saambell

> Frankly they should use that model as inspiration when they eventually give us Daemon-Fulgrim in a couple years (I have my hopes up for 2024 personally).


You could probably decently kitbash him out of Morathi, one of the big slaneesh greater daemons, and maybe one or two others. Though, those are very modern big models meaning the pieces would need a lot of careful cutting to fit, and they are all big pricey models.

----------


## Sinewmire

> Urg are they now making existing marines Primaris?
> Is the entire primaris circus just an excuse for making Marines bigger and shinier?


Primaris is a range refresh for the Space Marines, they've just come up with (bad) Lore reasons to have Primaris and Firstborn marines so that nobody burns their armies like that guy after Warhammer Fantasy was axed.

----------


## Renegade Paladin

If it was really just a range refresh then Intercessors would be able to take a special and a heavy weapon and fit in a drop pod.   :Small Tongue:

----------


## Eldan

Personally, I think they were _intended_ as a range refresh, but then at some point late in the development someone said "If we do that, the fans will hate it, they want to use their old models" so they instead hastily wrote some new rules for Bigger Marines.

----------


## Grim Portent

I dunno, I think if they were meant to be a range refresh, just new better proportioned marines then they would've used the previously established aesthetic.

Instead they have a whole new homogenous armour design, homogenous weapon choices like HH marines, a bigger emphasis on ranged combat. The stuff that came out was very different from how marines traditionally have been, and not what I would imagine for a range refresh.

----------


## Avaris

> I dunno, I think if they were meant to be a range refresh, just new better proportioned marines then they would've used the previously established aesthetic.
> 
> Instead they have a whole new homogenous armour design, homogenous weapon choices like HH marines, a bigger emphasis on ranged combat. The stuff that came out was very different from how marines traditionally have been, and not what I would imagine for a range refresh.


That doesnt necessarily mean they didnt start as a more straightforward range refresh though: could easily see the design process start as range refresh and then turn into new aesthetic. I suspect the question was very much what would we do if we were designing marines for the first time now?

----------


## LeSwordfish

There's definitely a part of me that wants the primaris range to just be "new tactical marines, new assault marines, new terminators" but I think I appreciate that they're making changes, even if I don't like some of those changes. Maybe 10th edition starter set will include more direct equivalents of Assault Marines and Terminators.

I say this with a certain amount of regret because there are models there that i truly love, and also because it is a Hot Take that will get me lambasted... but I think they should start proactively sundowning the firstborn range. The space marine range is so big and only going to get bigger: shovelling a whole huge pile of kits into Legends would make it considerably less unwieldy. How many bikes or land speeders are they selling? How many non-venerable dreadnoughts? I think perhaps this year is a good time to trim some of the fat from their most ungainly book. You could lose ten or so selections from the army list, keep the newest and juiciest firstborn kits, and it would probably be for the best.

----------


## NeoVid

> Primaris is a range refresh for the Space Marines, they've just come up with (bad) Lore reasons to have Primaris and Firstborn marines so that nobody burns their armies like that guy after Warhammer Fantasy was axed.


I have to ask if this really happened, but I'm willing to bet it's a true story.  "I'll set fire to this huge pile of money, that'll show 'em!"

----------


## Eldan

> I have to ask if this really happened, but I'm willing to bet it's a true story.  "I'll set fire to this huge pile of money, that'll show 'em!"


There's a youtube video of a guy burning what looks like a mid-sized fantasy army on a small barbecue. What the exact reasons where is of course hard to determine, it might just be clickbait. Just googling "guy burns warhammer army" should find it.

----------


## Cheesegear

> What the exact reasons where is of course hard to determine


...Umm...No it isn't. The reason he did it was pretty clear.
I'm actually impressed. Instead of selling it, he set it on fire. That's pretty strong commitment.

Same as the guy who tore up his _Magic_ 30th cards (and, after being called out, tore up the Rares in a second video, too).
Could've sold them. Didn't, though.




> it might just be clickbait.


It would only be clickbait, if, well, he didn't actually do it.
But he did.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> ...Umm...No it isn't. The reason he did it was pretty clear.
> I'm actually impressed. Instead of selling it, he set it on fire. That's pretty strong commitment.
> 
> Same as the guy who tore up his _Magic_ 30th cards (and, after being called out, tore up the Rares in a second video, too).
> Could've sold them. Didn't, though.


Indeed. if he merely sold them, it would be communicating he no longer values them, that he values money more than all the memories he had with them. its too normal and expected, easily ignored.

destroying them on other hand, makes a statement.

----------


## Wraith

> ...Umm...No it isn't. The reason he did it was pretty clear.


The reason is that he's an idiot who doesn't understand cause and effect.  :Small Tongue: 

Buy your miniatures, decide that you hate the company, and burn them? The company still has your money and doesn't care, because you're clearly an idiot that they can point and laugh at. YOU'RE a rational and normal customer, right? YOU don't act like *this*, do YOU?

Buy your miniatures, decide you hate the company, sell them to other collectors on eBay? Or better yet, just give them away for nothing? The company still has _your_ money, but you're preventing them from getting _SOMEONE ELSE'_ money which is the one thing they do care about. That's how you hurt them back.

"Burning memories" is certainly a fine statement, but it's abstract and probably split the community more than uniting it, between the sides who thought he had a good point and the side who thought he looked like a loon.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Easy e

What if I bought the companies miniatures at some point in the past, then stopped buying newer versions of their miniatures, and then use the miniatures I had bought to play other games that I have purchased with money?  

Is that good enough?  Or is it all just too late because I gave them money at some point in time?

Asking for a friend.

----------


## Wraith

I mean, I'm not the Miniatures Police, if that's what works for you then have at it. Play other games, have a great time, that's definitely a moral victory.  :Small Smile: 

But if your intention is to 'get back' at GW, like publicly burning an army, it won't 'do' anything to them. Buying new models from the company who makes the new game would be a step in that direction as you're actively empowering GW's competition, but if you're not trying to make a public protest then who cares?

But no. Giving them money 10 years ago and nothing since only confirms that they don't need to care about you any more. Money _today_ and money _tomorrow_ is what they want, and unless you're taking one or the other away from them, they're not harmed by not getting money that you're weren't going to spend anyway.

----------


## Lord Torath

Assuming that's a serious question, you should do whatever makes you the happiest.  You've already given money to the company.  Nothing you do will change that.  So do with your minis whatever will make you happiest.

For me, that's painting and playing games not supported by GW.  Not because I have anything against GW, but because the games I want to play aren't ones GW is supporting.  I get a kick out of the rules discussions here, but they are ultimately meaningless to me, since I play (house-ruled) 2E 40k and Warpstrike (see my sig).

My son recently found out that, even though the dollar-pound exchange rate is pretty great if you hold dollars, the MSRP cost of GW merch sold in the US doesn't reflect that.  So he's decided he's only going to buy 2nd hand now on.  Will that really do much to affect GW?  Probably not.  Will it save him money?  Possibly.  Will it make him happier?  Seems likely, which was reason enough for me to say "Go for it."

There's no need to ask us if that's "enough".  The only person you need to ask is yourself.

(also, Ninja'd)

----------


## Lord Torath

And now for something completely different:  Bad Photos!

I finished painting up some assault marines, and thought I'd post a pic or two.  On top of a piece of terrain my wife got me for the holidays.  These are from my custom chapter, the Panthers.
*Spoiler: I DID say they were bad photos...*
Show




Also pictured: a past/future painting project, some Eldar Rangers.

----------


## DeMouse

Any advice for playing Starstriders in Kill Team? A friend and I started playing recently and I've been couts-asing a few different teams to get the feel for them before I commit to painting up the correct models. Testing out Starstriders next.

Probably going to end up going with either them or the Kroot Kinband team.

----------


## 9mm

> Any advice for playing Starstriders in Kill Team? A friend and I started playing recently and I've been couts-asing a few different teams to get the feel for them before I commit to painting up the correct models. Testing out Starstriders next.
> 
> Probably going to end up going with either them or the Kroot Kinband team.


doggo is best boy for playing fetch. Also the archiotech space laser is Crazy good.

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