# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 >  Perception and Extra Senses

## Ruethgar

Should a being get bonus perception for having several senses able to pinpoint someone? I know by RAW its just one roll and done, but if you have Blindsight, Blindsense, effective Darkvision, Mindsight, Tremorsense, Arcane Sight, and Scent, should a Darkstalker or Spheres of Might Lurker rogue really just be able to roll one Stealth to fool all of that? Would a synergy bonus to perception per extra sense be out of order or excessive?

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## SangoProduction

> Should a being get bonus perception for having several senses able to pinpoint someone? I know by RAW its just one roll and done, but if you have Blindsight, Blindsense, effective Darkvision, Mindsight, Tremorsense, Arcane Sight, and Scent, should a Darkstalker or Spheres of Might Lurker rogue really just be able to roll one Stealth to fool all of that? Would a synergy bonus to perception per extra sense be out of order or excessive?


Considering that special senses tend to be "no roll, just perceive," then the stealth allowances like Darkstalker should be "Actually you roll now."
If you want special senses to be more granular, you could use the "GM's friend" and say that for each additional applicable special sense, rather than auto-perceiving, grant +2 to the roll, or the extra sense allowing it to cancel out a sense-defeating effect like invisibility.
Then Darkstalker could like... half the bonus.

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## Crake

> effective Darkvision, Mindsight, [...], Arcane Sight, and [...], should a Darkstalker or Spheres of Might Lurker rogue really just be able to roll one Stealth to fool all of that? Would a synergy bonus to perception per extra sense be out of order or excessive?


I dunno about spheres of might, but darkstalker does nothing against darkvision, mindsight and arcane sight. Now, arcane sight can be overcome with liberal use nystul's magic aura, darkvision can be solved with a ring of darkhidden, and mindsight can (arguably) be solved with mind blank, but that's hardly just one thing to solve all those senses.

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## Darg

> I dunno about spheres of might, but darkstalker does nothing against darkvision, mindsight and arcane sight. Now, arcane sight can be overcome with liberal use nystul's magic aura, darkvision can be solved with a ring of darkhidden, and mindsight can (arguably) be solved with mind blank, but that's hardly just one thing to solve all those senses.


By RAW, if it doesnt have line of effect it doesn't work. Tower shield is all powerful for these kinds of things.

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## Doctor Despair

> By RAW, if it doesnt have line of effect it doesn't work. Tower shield is all powerful for these kinds of things.


Listen, mindsight, and lifesense don't require LoE. I'm sure there's others. Further complicating the matter is that they can just spot the tower shield (as you explicitly can still target it with abilities, so you have both LoS and LoE to the tower shield unless it's otherwise hidden).

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## Crake

> By RAW, if it doesnt have line of effect it doesn't work. Tower shield is all powerful for these kinds of things.


Neither mindsight nor arcane sight require line of effect though? Mindsight is anything within telekinesis range, and arcane sight has the same penetrative power as detect magic, so I guess, if the tower shield is lead coated, that could work, but then you're enjoying the tower shield's ACP to your stealth checks.

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## Elkad

In ultra-complicated mode, there would be a whole bunch of _sense_ skills.
Spot, Listen, Scent, Touch(tremor), arcane, mind, etc

A base human would get a giant racial penalty to Scent (-8?  More?).  He wouldn't get to even roll on Mind, just like a blind creature can't roll Spot.  And then you'd check them all.

A Troglodyte or a skunk would get a penalty to concealing it's scent.  A skeleton would be undetectable by Mind, but an ooze or insect might just get a huge bonus to it's Hide Mind check, because it has some sort of instinctive mental processes.  Something like Mind Blank might not be foolproof, just provide a large bonus, as while you might not be detectable, you might obscure the thoughts of creatures past you.  So a telepath might know that "something shielded" is thataway.


I can't really see a way to combine everything into one roll.  If you are invisible, mind-blanked, scentless, and at ambient temperature, but you still have a heartbeat, good enough hearing (or even touch) could detect you.  So if it's just a bonus stack, those shouldn't apply.

I like the simplicity of PFs one-roll system, but it's still imperfect.

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## Darg

> Listen, mindsight, and lifesense don't require LoE. I'm sure there's others. Further complicating the matter is that they can just spot the tower shield (as you explicitly can still target it with abilities, so you have both LoS and LoE to the tower shield unless it's otherwise hidden).


Lifesense works fundamentally different to mindsight. So you can see the light from around corners.




> This life-light behaves like regular light--you can't see into solid objects, or past solid walls.


Mindsight works like blindsense which is blocked by LoE. Mindsight also isn't targeted so, as it confers you the ability, it wouldn't be able to bypass the tower shield's cover. Total cover does not prevent LoS on its own (clear glass is an example of providing total cover but allowing LoS).

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## Doctor Despair

> Lifesense works fundamentally different to mindsight. So you can see the light from around corners.


I didn't say they were identical, but yes, that is how lifesense would work.





> Mindsight works like blindsense which is blocked by LoE. Mindsight also isn't targeted so, as it confers you the ability, it wouldn't be able to bypass the tower shield's cover. Total cover does not prevent LoS on its own (clear glass is an example of providing total cover but allowing LoS).


Let's be specific with the way they compare it to blindsense, Darg.




> This works much like blindsense--the creature knows what square each thinking being is in, but it does not see the being, and the being still has total concealment unless the creature can see it by some other means.


I legitimately wish it were keyed off of blidnsense more. I wish they had written this:




> This works much like blindsense, except that [ways mindsight is different].


Instead, it's only like blindsense in certain respects. I'm disinterested in rehashing the age-old forum debates, but I will also add that I do wish it were less comprehensive than it is. They either meant it to be a neat alternative to blindsense (and wrote it poorly) or meant it to be totally busted (and accomplished that). I am disinterested in rehashing this old forum debate further than this though; I think we've both encapsulated the essence of it regardless.

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## Darg

> Let's be specific with the way they compare it to blindsense, Darg.
> 
> I legitimately wish it were keyed off of blidnsense more. I wish they had written this:
> 
> Instead, it's only like blindsense in certain respects. I'm disinterested in rehashing the age-old forum debates, but I will also add that I do wish it were less comprehensive than it is. They either meant it to be a neat alternative to blindsense (and wrote it poorly) or meant it to be totally busted (and accomplished that). I am disinterested in rehashing this old forum debate further than this though; I think we've both encapsulated the essence of it regardless.


Or it's iterating pertinate information instead of comparing them. 

Must be nice to be a dog, having the ability to know creatures are outside of its air tight sound proofed prison thanks to its ability to smell. It doesnt say it needs line of effect so I guess it doesn't require it by default.

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## Ruethgar

Guess I'll just go for the +2 per applicable sense. Thank you everyone for your responses.

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## Crake

> Or it's iterating pertinate information instead of comparing them. 
> 
> Must be nice to be a dog, having the ability to know creatures are outside of its air tight sound proofed prison thanks to its ability to smell. It doesnt say it needs line of effect so I guess it doesn't require it by default.


Considering the feat says "anything within range of it's telepathy", and telepathy does not require line of effect, I take that to mean that it also doesn't require line of effect. The feat then goes on to explain how it's "much the same" (read: not exactly the same) as blindsense in the sense that you only know the square the creature is in, and it still has total concealment toward you.

Also, the "normal" section that a creature has to know that a being is there to telepathically communicate with it seems a bit pointless to state if the ability requires line of effect, and thus a creature would normally know it's there anyway.

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## Darg

> Considering the feat says "anything within range of it's telepathy", and telepathy does not require line of effect, I take that to mean that it also doesn't require line of effect. The feat then goes on to explain how it's "much the same" (read: not exactly the same) as blindsense in the sense that you only know the square the creature is in, and it still has total concealment toward you.
> 
> Also, the "normal" section that a creature has to know that a being is there to telepathically communicate with it seems a bit pointless to state if the ability requires line of effect, and thus a creature would normally know it's there anyway.


As I mentioned before, if it doesn't need some form of connection to a target Scent would be able to detect and point the direction of any creature even though no smell could possibly reach the detecting creature. But hey, I guess it is RAW if one believes that to be the case.

I'm still not convinced that telepathy wouldn't be the same way. It doesnt say you can communicate through walls or earth. The line about knowing a creature is there can be referring to hidden creatures, not a creature on the other side of a 90 ft thick wall. 

You're right that blindsense and mindsight are different. Mindsight conveys much more information than blindsense does. So the statement is true if it follows all the rules for blindsense and also the extra benefits of mindsight.

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## Doctor Despair

> You're right that blindsense and mindsight are different. Mindsight conveys much more information than blindsense does. So the statement is true if it follows all the rules for blindsense and also the extra benefits of mindsight.


As I mentioned before: the comparison to blindsense is in specifically the qualities they listed. It's not similar to blindsense in all ways except X; it's similar to blindsense in X ways, and otherwise a different ability. It's unfortunate how they wrote it, but it doesn't inherit other limitations of blindsense.

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## Darg

> As I mentioned before: the comparison to blindsense is in specifically the qualities they listed. It's not similar to blindsense in all ways except X; it's similar to blindsense in X ways, and otherwise a different ability. It's unfortunate how they wrote it, but it doesn't inherit other limitations of blindsense.


Except the limitations are inherent in the ability itself, not copying from blindsense. This is where we have a disconnect. The ability requires LoE because it doesn't have cause to not require it.

Let's put it this way, would a paladins aura of courage go through walls even though both parties know nothing about each other?

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