# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  Do clerics get lackluster after tier 2?

## wookietek

I'm playing a forge cleric and he's 8th level now. He's lot of fun right now. Spiritual weapon and spirit guardians is a solid combo, and the utility is solid so far. But... looking ahead his abilities and spells don't really excite me. Can someone convince me to not MC out? I've actually never not MC so I want to go straight for a change. I expect to make it to tier 3, but maybe not much beyond that. What could my future goals and strategies be?

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## Amnestic

Every level boosts your chance of Divine Intervention working, albeit not by much initially. And of course if you _do_ get to 20th, eyyyyy, ez life.

Their spell list for 6th+ isn't as impressive as a wizard's (no one's is) but it's still got some standouts and you know _everything_ on there.

From their 6th level spells, some standouts include Heal, Heroes Feast, Sunbeam, and True Seeing. Word of Recall can either save you a lot of time or rescue the party in a pinch.

Conjure Celestial Couatl alone is very solid from their 7th level spells.

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## LudicSavant

> Do clerics get lackluster after tier 2?


Clerics have high potential at all levels.  Their high level list may not be a Wizard's, but there's lots of good stuff on there and you know the whole list.  And caster progression is just really good _in general_, especially after tier 2.




> I'm playing a forge cleric and he's 8th level now. He's lot of fun right now. Spiritual weapon and spirit guardians is a solid combo, and the utility is solid so far. But... looking ahead his abilities and spells don't really excite me. Can someone convince me to not MC out? I've actually never not MC so I want to go straight for a change. I expect to make it to tier 3, but maybe not much beyond that. What could my future goals and strategies be?


At 4th you get Wall of Fire (in a knockback/control party).  
At 5th you get Animate Objects.
At 6th you get (upcast) Tasha's Summon Celestial.
Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon never stop being useful.  Quite a few of the Cleric spells upcast well.

As a Forge Cleric you definitely want the Tasha's variant features, too.  Blessed Strikes is better than Forge's Divine Strike.  And since Forge Clerics have a relatively poor Channel Divinity you should be making heavy use of Harness Divine Power.

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## Guy Lombard-O

> I'm playing a forge cleric and...looking ahead his abilities and spells don't really excite me.


I think that higher level clerics aren't actually bad or even "not good", so much as they really begin to lose their individual flavor once you reach 10th level on up.  The domain spells dry up past 5th spell level.  There's only one additional domain feature in the remaining 11 upper levels of cleric, and for at least a couple of domains those features are so uninspiring that you may not even care to use them (looking at you Trickery, and possibly Nature and Knowledge, depending upon DM interpretations).  So while higher level clerics are still pretty good, they slowly morph more into a samey-samey "cleric" mold, and may start to lose their individual subclass identity.  Your standard "best" cleric spells and divine intervention are all basically the same, no matter what your focus was in tier 1 & 2.

Since many of the best cleric spells do upcast well, I feel like clerics are probably the best full caster to multiclass with after level 9.  If you pick another full caster class, and pick a subclass of that second class which pairs well with your domain thematically, then you are probably doing one of the full-caster multiclasses which are least damaging to your overall power level (although probably still a downgrade in brute power over staying single classed).

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

I can't believe how little love Divine Word gets when discussing higher level Cleric spells.  I don't think some people have read the last line of the description.  Not everything is a Celestial, Elemental, Fey, or Fiend, but if these are a staple of the campaign this spell is basically OP.  It's a bonus action, has a 30 foot radius, no upper limit on creatures affected, and is 24 hour banishment without concentration.  I've trivialized what was supposed to be really difficult encounters with this spell numerous times.  If your campaign is about Devils, Demons, or the like do not multi-class out of Cleric until you get this spell.

Re: the original question, yes I suppose if you can't find higher level spells like Divine Word that suit your build/ campaign, then the likelihood is you'll be upcasting a lot of the same, so multiclassing into another full caster is going to provide more options than sticking with Cleric.

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## LudicSavant

> I can't believe how little love Divine Word gets when discussing higher level Cleric spells.  I don't think some people have read the last line of the description.  Not everything is a Celestial, Elemental, Fey, or Fiend, but if these are a staple of the campaign this spell is basically OP.  It's a bonus action, has a 30 foot radius, no upper limit on creatures affected, and is 24 hour banishment without concentration.  I've trivialized what was supposed to be really difficult encounters with this spell numerous times.  If your campaign is about Devils, Demons, or the like do not multi-class out of Cleric until you get this spell.
> 
> Re: the original question, yes I suppose if you can't find higher level spells like Divine Word that suit your build/ campaign, then the likelihood is you'll be upcasting a lot of the same, so multiclassing into another full caster is going to provide more options than sticking with Cleric.


Divine Word is a fantastic spell.  Bonus action, very wide area save or lose on many enemy types (regardless of HP) + execute on low hp foes (and not even that low -- 40 hp or less is good enough for blind+deaf.  That'll take out enemies that would take _two_ failed saves against Fireballs to finish off).

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## Witty Username

Clerics to have some feature meh, but that is partially because the spells they get up to that point are solid. And you do get new stuff, it is just not the same jumps as before.
If you enjoy what you have been doing, you will do it better.

Wizard has a similar weirdness from 6th-8th level spells. But that is partially because for 3rd, 4th and 5th level they get a selection of some of the dumbest spells in the game.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Clerics to have some feature meh, but that is partially because the spells they get up to that point are solid. And you do get new stuff, it is just not the same jumps as before.
> If you enjoy what you have been doing, you will do it better.
> 
> Wizard has a similar weirdness from 6th-8th level spells. But that is partially because for 3rd, 4th and 5th level they get a selection of some of the dumbest spells in the game.


I think there's something to this, and somewhat follows the same logic I'm seeing in the thread on healing being 'bad' and the perception that martials are underwhelming by mid game.  The overtuned nature of a handful of spells through mid levels makes a lot of things look pretty mediocre.

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## Schwann145

You'll notice that every cleric, regardless of theme, regardless of Domain, tends to pick the exact same spells as one another. Almost all of your identity is tied up in your Domain choice and that runs dry in tier 2.
Clerics suffer from a very bland, boring, and/or niche spell list. Since, after the early levels, your spell list is really all you have going for you, it tends to stick out more the higher level you get to.

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## Kane0

> I'm playing a forge cleric and he's 8th level now. He's lot of fun right now. Spiritual weapon and spirit guardians is a solid combo, and the utility is solid so far. But... looking ahead his abilities and spells don't really excite me. Can someone convince me to not MC out? I've actually never not MC so I want to go straight for a change. I expect to make it to tier 3, but maybe not much beyond that. What could my future goals and strategies be?


Does your DM freely offer high level clerical services like greater restoration, heal and resurrection? Because if you dont have access to things like that being a high level cleric is pretty damn good.

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## Witty Username

> I think there's something to this, and somewhat follows the same logic I'm seeing in the thread on healing being 'bad' and the perception that martials are underwhelming by mid game.  The overtuned nature of a handful of spells through mid levels makes a lot of things look pretty mediocre.


Yeah, I personally think there is an 'interest problem' with martials. Barbarian would be my prime example, in that there is what feels like a drought of abilities, generally starting at about 8th level. But for the games purposes, they are generally fine through those levels of play in terms of power (my working theory is that it is primarily because of how powerful extra attack is).

To clarify, at least in the case of Barbarian, this is less the amount of features and more the quality, Brutal critical for example is new, but in all honesty it doesn't have much impact on the game.

As for healing, there's the other thread.

For casters, new spells tend to provide greater interest, even if the power of the character isn't changing as much since most spells have some specialized function that other spells don't compete with.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Yeah, I personally think there is an 'interest problem' with martials. Barbarian would be my prime example, in that there is what feels like a drought of abilities, generally starting at about 8th level. But for the games purposes, they are generally fine through those levels of play in terms of power (my working theory is that it is primarily because of how powerful extra attack is).
> 
> To clarify, at least in the case of Barbarian, this is less the amount of features and more the quality, Brutal critical for example is new, but in all honesty it doesn't have much impact on the game.
> 
> As for healing, there's the other thread.
> 
> For casters, new spells tend to provide greater interest, even if the power of the character isn't changing as much since most spells have some specialized function that other spells don't compete with.


On that note, Forge Cleric gets Animate Objects at 9th.  If nothing else when compared to the OP's default of Spirit Guardians, it has a range of 120 feet.  At best I think Animate Objects is flavorful for the forge and a very good spell.

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## Witty Username

> On that note, Forge Cleric gets Animate Objects at 9th.  If nothing else when compared to the OP's default of Spirit Guardians, it has a range of 120 feet.  At best I think Animate Objects is flavorful for the forge and a very good spell.


Definitely, I have first hand experience of how it can turn encounters into a blender. I was a hex bard(swords), and it was definitely the most satisfying use of my bonus actions.

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## Ogre Mage

Arcana Clerics are among the strongest characters in Tier 4.

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## da newt

High level single class Clerics are very effective, but effective might not be what you find exciting or enjoyable.  You are a full caster with access to ALL the spells, many weapons, armor and shields, a special relationship with the gods, and more hp than those wimpy Wizards and Sorcerers.  It's a great way to go.

I find Druids more interesting (or Bards) if I want to go full caster, Warlocks if I'm looking for magic but not sooo many spells.  Clerics can be a little 'vanilla' if you don't put a bunch of effort into making them interesting characters (personally I think this comes more from stereotypes / tropes than mechanics / abilities - the PC's personality and ethos are always more important to me than their optimization).

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## sithlordnergal

They do get very lackluster after T2. Their Domain abilities and spells dry up, and all you're left with are high level Cleric spells...and they're not exactly impressive. You're either spending a high level slot to deal less damage than a Fireball, upcasting a low level spell, or casting one of a ton of divination spells. Not really anything interesting to do there, not compared to other full casters.

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## strangebloke

People have already covered this, but the short answer is, 

"Not really unless you're strictly comparing yourself to a wizard."

If you compare yourself to a wizard, well. There's no equivalent to simulacrum, or forcecage, or wish (except sort of divine intervention)

If you compare yourself to anyone else, the cleric remains extremely powerful at all levels. Their good spells are great for upcasting. Command, Spirit Guardians, Spiritual weapon, Banishment - these are all excellent spells for up casting. High level spells like Hero's Feast and Heal and Resurrection and Summon Celestial are excellent high-level spells.

The cleric is essentially a workhorse. Nothing they do breaks the game, but they have a lot of prepared spells and very efficient, powerful, straightforward spells. Among full casters clerics are the least likely to 'break' the DM's planned difficulty curve, but they're also (at least imx) the least likely to be lackluster or useless. Sometimes the party paladin runs out of gas or can't get into melee and is just sad. Sometimes the wizard messes up and ends up in a situation where they're denied they're powerful reactions and various AC bonuses.

So in short, they're solid.

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## sithlordnergal

> People have already covered this, but the short answer is, 
> 
> "Not really unless you're strictly comparing yourself to a wizard."
> 
> If you compare yourself to a wizard, well. There's no equivalent to simulacrum, or forcecage, or wish (except sort of divine intervention)
> 
> If you compare yourself to anyone else, the cleric remains extremely powerful at all levels. Their good spells are great for upcasting. Command, Spirit Guardians, Spiritual weapon, Banishment - these are all excellent spells for up casting. High level spells like Hero's Feast and Heal and Resurrection and Summon Celestial are excellent high-level spells.
> 
> The cleric is essentially a workhorse. Nothing they do breaks the game, but they have a lot of prepared spells and very efficient, powerful, straightforward spells. Among full casters clerics are the least likely to 'break' the DM's planned difficulty curve, but they're also (at least imx) the least likely to be lackluster or useless. Sometimes the party paladin runs out of gas or can't get into melee and is just sad. Sometimes the wizard messes up and ends up in a situation where they're denied they're powerful reactions and various AC bonuses.
> ...


I dunno...I tend to find Clerics pale in comparison to high level Bards and Druids, as well as Wizards. I personally find high level Cleric spells are weaker than high level Bard and Druid spells, but that's a matter of taste. What isn't a matter of taste is the fact that Bards and Druids just get more. Druids and Bards get subclass features at level 14, Cleric has to wait for 17. Druids and Bards get handy and interesting class features from levels 11 to 20, clerics get a very minor boost to Divine Intervention and Destroy Undead. You just have nothing to look forward to as a Cleric until levels 17 and 20, which makes them pretty boring and lackluster.

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## stoutstien

Summon celestial alone means they will never have issues in the damage department. It's like having a semi optimized fighter with a little heal on the side.

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## Leon

If a caster with all the perks that entails seems a poor choice then bail now and find another class that suits the character.

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## JNAProductions

Lackluster doesnt have to mean BAD.
It could mean boring.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> I dunno...I tend to find Clerics pale in comparison to high level Bards and Druids, as well as Wizards. I personally find high level Cleric spells are weaker than high level Bard and Druid spells, but that's a matter of taste. What isn't a matter of taste is the fact that Bards and Druids just get more. Druids and Bards get subclass features at level 14, Cleric has to wait for 17. Druids and Bards get handy and interesting class features from levels 11 to 20, clerics get a very minor boost to Divine Intervention and Destroy Undead. You just have nothing to look forward to as a Cleric until levels 17 and 20, which makes them pretty boring and lackluster.


Clerics need to get a little bit of love vs. Bards (and Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Rangers) for being able to pray for different spells every day, as the 'right' spell can be more powerful than the 'strongest' spell.  That Divine Word spell I was touting upthread is fabulous in the right circumstances, but is pretty average in others.  Beyond that, being able to change spells up to suit challenges would be enjoyable for a lot of players.

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## animorte

> The cleric is essentially a workhorse. Nothing they do breaks the game, but they have a lot of prepared spells and very efficient, powerful, straightforward spells.
> 
> So in short, they're solid.


This is why I like Clerics.




> What isn't a matter of taste is the fact that Bards and Druids just get more. Druids and Bards get subclass features at level 14, Cleric has to wait for 17.


Truth. The last feature is level 6 (8 just adds 3-5 damage). 




> Lackluster doesnt have to mean BAD.
> It could mean boring.


This. Some people find it boring strictly because, while all Clerics are reliable, many of them end up using the exact same resources to be as such.




> Beyond that, being able to change spells up to suit challenges would be enjoyable for a lot of players.


Indeed. Interesting, since this is one of the main arguments for why Wizards are so strong.

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## sithlordnergal

> Clerics need to get a little bit of love vs. Bards (and Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Rangers) for being able to pray for different spells every day, as the 'right' spell can be more powerful than the 'strongest' spell.  That Divine Word spell I was touting upthread is fabulous in the right circumstances, but is pretty average in others.  Beyond that, being able to change spells up to suit challenges would be enjoyable for a lot of players.


See, being able to change out your spells every day is great...if it wasn't for how few outstanding high level spells there are. Don't get me wrong, Divine Word is a fine spell in the right circumstances, but what other 7th level spells are there for Cleric? We have Conjure Celestial, Etherealness, Fire Storm, Plane Shift, Regenerate, Ressurection, Symbol, and Temple of the Gods.

Out of all the 7th level Cleric spells, I'd say Divine Word, Plane Shift, Fire Storm, and Etherealness are the best picks. And even then, Divine Word is really only handy if you're facing certain types of outsiders or are facing creatures with low HP, while Plane Shift is really only needed if you're doing a lot of planar traveling. Fire Storm and Etherealness are probably the two best spells of the bunch, since they're far more versatile and can apply to more situations.

And that's the issue. Clerics have some handy niche spells...but most of them are extremely niche, and only work in specific circumstances or against specific creatures. They lack the versatility of a Wizard, and lack the class features that the Bard, Druid, Warlock and Sorcerer use to make up for a less versatile spell list.

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## strangebloke

> I dunno...I tend to find Clerics pale in comparison to high level Bards and Druids, as well as Wizards. I personally find high level Cleric spells are weaker than high level Bard and Druid spells, but that's a matter of taste. What isn't a matter of taste is the fact that Bards and Druids just get more. Druids and Bards get subclass features at level 14, Cleric has to wait for 17. Druids and Bards get handy and interesting class features from levels 11 to 20, clerics get a very minor boost to Divine Intervention and Destroy Undead. You just have nothing to look forward to as a Cleric until levels 17 and 20, which makes them pretty boring and lackluster.


I mean, I'm not arguing over which caster is 'better.' Personally I do think all the full casters have higher peak strength than clerics - said as much in my post actually. But clerics have high AC and big damage and essential spells like raise dead. They also have TONS of spells prepared, the most of any class other than some druids, and they have better bonus spell lists than most of those druids.

Something like PWT can be gamebreaking or mostly irrelevant depending on campaign, but spiritual weapon is always going to be good. Conjure Animals might be unusable at your table - spirit guardians is never unusable. Etc.

Clerics might be boring, but they're not weak. They are imo the most balanced class in the game.

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## Samayu

> ... spending a high level slot to deal less damage than a Fireball...


I played a cleric through L16 a while back, and the only time I ever felt like I couldn't contribute a ton was when the most needed thing was damage.

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## animorte

> Clerics might be boring, but they're not weak. They are imo the most balanced class in the game.


Anything Tier 2 and after, I agree. Clerics and Warlocks. Both of which are too front-loaded for this claim in Tier 1.

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## Ganryu

Yeah, when I played cleric, I got reaaaally bored past level 11. Same spells all the same, and no new really effective toys. Lvl 8 spells gave me nothing, and I had a heavier and heavier load I couldn't keep up with. Just because I could keep people up, they thought they were immortal...

They were not...

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## sithlordnergal

> I mean, I'm not arguing over which caster is 'better.' Personally I do think all the full casters have higher peak strength than clerics - said as much in my post actually. But clerics have high AC and big damage and essential spells like raise dead. They also have TONS of spells prepared, the most of any class other than some druids, and they have better bonus spell lists than most of those druids.
> 
> Something like PWT can be gamebreaking or mostly irrelevant depending on campaign, but spiritual weapon is always going to be good. Conjure Animals might be unusable at your table - spirit guardians is never unusable. Etc.
> 
> Clerics might be boring, but they're not weak. They are imo the most balanced class in the game.


Wait, where are Clerics getting the big damage you mentioned? Cause...I don't see it in their spell list or abilities. Maybe with Summon Celestial, but even that isn't exactly outstanding when it comes to big damage. They also don't really have that high of an AC, given they lack the Shield spell. They do get more spells prepared than anyone else, though those are very hit or miss depending on the Domain you chose.

All in all, I'll stand by my statement that Clerics become extremely lackluster after T2. They just don't get anything fun or interesting after level 10. Not in the way Bards, Druids, and Wizards do.





> I played a cleric through L16 a while back, and the only time I ever felt like I couldn't contribute a ton was when the most needed thing was damage.


So, I actually got to play in a campaign where I was the only spell caster for a good long while. Didn't even have a half-caster or warlock. I found that Clerics were lacking...a lot actually. Travel? Couldn't do it till I got Plane Shift. Control? Not a lot of options outside of Banishment. Damage? I could use Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, and Guiding Bolt. Almost nothing to deal with large groups of foes. General utility? Didn't exist outside of every single Divination spell you could want. Which...Don't get me wrong, Divination is great. Not very handy when you need some sort of magical way to get the party from the ground to the place high in the sky.

Eventually swapped to a Bard, found I could do everything my Cleric spells did and more. Only limitation was spells known, but that was easy enough to work around.

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## LudicSavant

Clerics have a ton of potential.




> Wait, where are Clerics getting the big damage you mentioned? Cause...I don't see it in their spell list or abilities. Maybe with Summon Celestial, but even that isn't exactly outstanding when it comes to big damage. They also don't really have that high of an AC, given they lack the Shield spell. They do get more spells prepared than anyone else, though those are very hit or miss depending on the Domain you chose.


The thing about Summon Celestial is that it doesn't exist in a vacuum, it leaves your action economy free and stacks on top of everything else you do.  So for example, that Summon that's hitting harder than a basic GWM Bear-barian is operating simultaneously to you, say, being a Death Cleric whose Channel Divinity has more smiting in it than if a Paladin spent _all_ of their spell slots on smites, who also can activate those smites on hits of Spiritual Weapon, who also is hitting people with twinnable cantrips enhanced with Blessed Strike (or can just, you know, cast full leveled spells with their Action instead), who also has Animated Dead minions running around, who also grabbed Shield on their spell list because that's a thing single class Clerics can do now in the year 2022.  All of that can happen in the same round.

All while still being a Cleric whose very existence means that your party has access to one of the best lists of "seatbelt spells" around.  Simply having those seatbelt spells meaningfully pushes back the list of things that can actually make the party lose the game, which would be enough reason to have a Cleric around in a high-challenge campaign on its own, let alone with the other stuff added in.

It's not just Death Clerics either.  Light Clerics are spamming wide-area blasts in a resource-efficient manner while simultaneously casting bonus action spells and having a Concentration effect (like Summon Celestial) running.  Arcana Clerics in tier 4 get Simulacrum and the like.  Rest in Peace Clerics are just bonkers.  Life Cleric resources scale very well with level.  And so forth.




> Damage? I could use Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, and Guiding Bolt.


Or Summon Celestial, Guardian of Faith, Sunburst, Animate Dead, Holy Weapon, Planar Ally, Animate Objects (Forge), Wall of Fire (Forge or Light), Fireball (Light), Maximized thunder stuff (Tempest), potent/blessed cantrips, Touch of Death (Death), Holy Word, Voice of Authority (Order), Spike Growth & Potent Thorn Whip (Nature), Emboldening Bond (Peace), early Crusader's Mantle + minionmancy party (War), etc.




> Control? Not a lot of options outside of Banishment.


There's stuff.  Just a few examples:

Silence turns off most spellcasting as well as a variety of other abilities that require the target to hear you.
Command is one of the better non-Concentration control options, and can combo with things like blessed strike OAs to boot.  It's good at upcasting for multiple targets.
Spirit Guardians inflicts halved movement speed with no save, on top of its other benefits.
Guardian of Faith occupies a decent area (and is yet another non-concentration option).  Note that it reaches to 10 feet *from the Large Guardian,* not just a 10-foot radius.  And that it actually occupies / fills up said space.
Contagion allows you to inflict Disadvantage without a save (piercing things like Legendary Resistance and Magic Resistance).
Hold Person and Hold Monster are on there.  So's Blindness/Deafness (another non-concentration option that can be upcast for multiple targets).
Animate Dead can give you bodies.
Stuff like Warding Bond and Sanctuary can effectively be used to control the flow of combat.
Sunburst carries a blinding rider on its AoE.
Heroes' Feast just makes the party outright immune to Poison damage, Poisoned status, fear of any kind, and gives Advantage on wisdom saves, and 11 hp per party member to boot, for the whole day.
Forbiddance is a Ritual so you can spam it any time you're out of combat to control access to an area (and the AoE is big, so you can cast it in a dungeon to potentially affect future parts of said dungeon).  It's a potent tool to counter to scry 'n' die and the like, and Wizards/Druids/etc don't get it.  Note that you do *not* need to buy a new material component each time, it's a one-time cost.
All Clerics get Turn Undead, which is a nice non-Concentration, wide-area, no-save-on-future-turns control effect (if only against a certain creature type).
Forge Clerics get Heat Metal and Wall of Fire and Animate Objects.  They also are sufficient beefy that they can really just sort of get in people's faces and present an OA threat via Blessed Strikes (a lot of Cleric builds can do this, actually).
Nature Clerics get Spike Growth and Plant Growth (another powerful non-concentration option!) and Wind Wall, and Dampen Elements at-will.
Order Clerics get Slow and Dominate, and Quickened enchantments!
Peace Clerics get Otiluke's Resilient Sphere and Protective Bond.
Twilight Clerics get their stupid Channel Divinity, a great form of flight, super-darkvision for all, and ever-present initiative buffs.
Tempest Clerics knock people around with their maximized Thunderwaves and Destructive Waves or reactions.  And they get Sleet Storm.
Trickery gets PWT and Polymorph and such.
Arcana gets multi-target bonus action healing dispels.  And just gets to cherrypick the best stuff off the Wizard list at tier 4.




> General utility? Didn't exist outside of every single Divination spell you could want. Which...Don't get me wrong, Divination is great. Not very handy when you need some sort of magical way to get the party from the ground to the place high in the sky.


Your Summon Celestial can carry people to the place high in the sky, and still stick around to do its damage and the like.

I can go and stop a plague dead in its tracks.  I can use Silence (as a ritual!) to break through a door or wall without making a sound.  I can purify enough food to feed a town without a slot.  I can boost pretty much every single non-combat ability check with Guidance.  I can give everyone in the party an upcast Continual Flame item that gets rid of magical Darkness just because I had a downtime day, once.  I can cast Forbiddance or Temple of the Gods or Word of Recall or Planar Ally or Zone of Truth or Sending or Speak with Dead or Control Water or Hallow or Etherealness or Plane Shift or Control Weather or Create Food and Water or Calm Emotions or Enhance Ability and I can do all of it just because I decided to this morning.  What's that, suddenly I learn we're going to trek through the Dark Souls poison swamp tomorrow?  Well I can make everyone completely immune to the poison, _and_ the slowing/difficult terrain effects of the marsh, all day.

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## wookietek

Coming back to this after a few days, and after reading all the posts it seems the clear answer is yes and no, lol. I know I'll always feel useful, and I'm sticking with this character, but I wish there was something fun and exciting to look forward to in tier 3 at least. Fortunately he is a miserable cuss who only gets along with his party while thinking he is way more clever than he really is, so the RP is fun regardless of whatever mechanics come along. Thanks for all the input!

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## diplomancer

> snip


To add to all other suggestions LudicSavant kindly provided, Clerics also have Incite Greed, a very good control option, whose main drawback is that it competes with Spirit Guardians (which is damage+soft control, but at the same slot level).

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## strangebloke

The big thing with clerics is their _number_ of prepared spells. It's the highest in the game! So even while 'purify food and drink' might be a niche spell, the cleric can actually afford to prepare it. A lot of their utility comes from that.

And their exclusive spells are actually pretty hard to replicate without a cleric in the party. The question is more whether being "the guy who casts revivify" is compelling to you or not.




> Anything Tier 2 and after, I agree. Clerics and Warlocks. Both of which are too front-loaded for this claim in Tier 1.


Fair enough, though I do think this is more a result of multiclassing and specific subclasses.

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## Sindal

> Coming back to this after a few days, and after reading all the posts it seems the clear answer is yes and no, lol. I know I'll always feel useful, and I'm sticking with this character, but I wish there was something fun and exciting to look forward to in tier 3 at least. Fortunately he is a miserable cuss who only gets along with his party while thinking he is way more clever than he really is, so the RP is fun regardless of whatever mechanics come along. Thanks for all the input!


A good party you cherish can make even hell bearable ♡

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## MrStabby

Clerics from level 11 are not bad... they just stop getting cool stuff.

At level 10 I would say you are in a really good position - great spells of multiple levels, loards of domain features, able to use a lot of equipment pretty well.  Generally very nice.

By level 13, you haven't really got much new and exciting.  You are still _fine_, because you were great at level 10 so even with just modest improvement you are not far behind.


And the spells you get over these levels _are_ a bit less dramatic than others.  Wizard spells for sure, but then bards get magical secrets (as well as no shortage of spells like forcecage).  Sorcerer spells are probably better than the cleric's list and the druid list (whilst not being as good as the others) is still probably a little beter than the cleric's.  Warlock might be less good, not so much due to the list as due to the limitations of mystic arcana - but warlocks still rack up more damage, more spell slots per short rest, more invocations and more interesting pact features so they are not really suffering.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

For what it's worth I just finished watching most of Treantmonk's assessment of subclasses (including class power) with a focus on the combat pillar from level 1 to roughly level 12.  In his view most Clerics (with the exception of Twilight and Peace which he rates as broken) are far more average than he (and I) expected.  His reasoning many cleric subclasses scored lower than subclasses from other full casters was broadly that average hp and decent armor don't compensate for narrower spell options.

I can't say play at our table supports the view that clerics at tier 1 and 2 aren't standouts, particularly in combat.  Every single time we've had a Cleric it's been a very effective party member.  My current level 3 (reskinned) Death Cleric is no exception, and this is a subclass generally rated in the bottom half of Cleric options.  Last session he was clearly the mvp, sending hordes of undead packing.  In sessions without undead he still has a bucket of good options, including some rituals, and just pastes his Channel Divinity option damage onto Spiritual Weapon with no impact on the action economy.  Once he hits 5th level and Spirit Guardians is available I can't see any other party member continuing to build power as fast, with the exception of perhaps the Eloquence Bard.

Anyway, while I don't agree with it, there is a view out there that even up to level 10 Clerics are more average.  If you take this view, then it's a lot easier to buy into arguments that multi-classing out is better than more of the same.

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## PallyBass

High level forge cleric gets fire immunity which is fun, but that's at t4. The main draw to stick with cleric is to get access to the higher level spells, though the cleric spell list is not very flashy. Animate Objects will be a fun spell to get from your domain. You also have summon celestial, Geass, holy weapon, sunbeam, and a lot of utility/ situational spells that are strong in the right moment. Thier ninth level spells are meh compared to other full casters IMO but true resurrection can derail campaigns if you use it on some ancient evil or npc

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## Rav

You have Animate Objects, and Fabricate. These two spells can be fun. Creation can come in handy too. Play up the fact you can make anything and at any time. That's super dope.

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## Zuras

Yes, cleric progression is lackluster in high level play, but that doesnt mean clerics are bad at those levels, just that they dont get any shiny new toys.  

Its compounded by the fact that clerics get no domain-specific spells of 6th level or higher, so clerics stop getting flashy new features right at the time many other casters start getting their flashiest spells.  The comparison with Bard is especially badMagical Secrets at 10 and 14 mean that the Bard spell list is the most customizable in the game, while every cleric gets exactly the same spells.

It sounds a lot worse than it plays, of course, mainly because cleric spells scale very well when up-cast, and 9th level Clerics are really strong.  Casting Banish at 7th level and removing four low CHA/high CR enemies from the battlefield is incredibly powerful, it just doesnt feel fresh at level 13, since youve been doing that for 7 levels already.

People complain about it because its annoying and disappointing compared to the first 9 levels, not because its bad.  Its like having a service that sends you seasonal fruit from around the world every month that switched to just sending you apples.

If you like being a Forge cleric in tier 2, I doubt you will get bored with the possibilities in your toolbox before the campaign ends.  Animate Objects and Creation plus the base cleric list is a lot of latitude.

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## Snails

"Lackluster" is not at all an unreasonable opinion.  I do not share it, but I would not argue strongly against.

As others have said, there is a broad solidly to the cleric class, and it is easy to underestimate the practical adventuring value of such a PC in a party.  "Practical" can easily be less than exciting, to some.

In terms of raw power, you have good incentive to stick it out until at least 13th level IMO:
9th: 5 level spells (and two domain spells)10th: 2nd 5th level spell slot, Divine Intervention11th: 6th level spell slot12th: ASI13th: 7th level spell slot

If that does not excite you, fair enough.  But I am feeling the "oh, this is the obvious point to multiclass to spice things up" like I do with many other classes.  But for 14th/15th, I can easily see why 2 levels of some other class looks really attractive.

If there is a significant issue with the Cleric class, I would peg it at Tier 4.  A lot of classes have a bit of the ho hum in the double digit levels -- the cleric is less bad than some other classes in this respect.

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## Guy Lombard-O

> "Lackluster" is not at all an unreasonable opinion.
> 
> In terms of raw power, you have good incentive to stick it out until at least 13th level IMO:
> 9th: 5 level spells (and two domain spells)10th: 2nd 5th level spell slot, Divine Intervention11th: 6th level spell slot12th: ASI13th: 7th level spell slot


I agree that cleric is at least okay all the way through.  But they really do lose steam after 9th level IMHO, and they get almost nothing further that helps thematically solidify them into their actual domain.  If you multiclass out at 9th level into another full caster class, your progression looks like this (not including whatever cool class feature toys you get from the new class):

9th:  5th level spells (and two domain spells)
10th:  2nd 5th level spell slot + ??? from other class
11th:  6th level spell slot
12th:  - nothing -  + ??? from other class
13th  7th level spell slot, ASI

It's not necessarily a _good_ idea to multiclass out of cleric or any full caster class.  But I really believe that cleric is the least painful one to ditch after 9th level.

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## Snails

> It's not necessarily a _good_ idea to multiclass out of cleric or any full caster class.  But I really believe that cleric is the least painful one to ditch after 9th level.


Not going to disagree or agree, yet; I want to think this through some more.  What class would you multiclass into, and still maintain the spell slot progression?  Druid seems odd to me -- I would not bother with low level Druid abilities and spells.  The other primary spellcaster classes requires paying through the nose MAD-wise, but it is doable, especially if I build my cleric as a Face from the beginning.

Do you have a recommendation?

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Not going to disagree or agree, yet; I want to think this through some more.  What class would you multiclass into, and still maintain the spell slot progression?  Druid seems odd to me -- I would not bother with low level Druid abilities and spells.  The other primary spellcaster classes requires paying through the nose MAD-wise, but it is doable, especially if I build my cleric as a Face from the beginning.
> 
> Do you have a recommendation?


I keep wondering if Swarmkeeper Ranger is worthwhile for my Cleric.  Gathered Swarm, to me, is basically an additional BA; the effect to move others would work particularly well with Spirit Guardians.  Of course it's a 3 level commitment to get 1 level of spellcasting, but you could also get Thorn Whip (another chance to drag things into Spirit Guardians) through Druidic Warrior, and nobody is going to turn their nose up at Absorb Elements.  Of course 1 level of Druid gets you the last bits.

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## Guy Lombard-O

> Not going to disagree or agree, yet; I want to think this through some more.  What class would you multiclass into, and still maintain the spell slot progression?  Druid seems odd to me -- I would not bother with low level Druid abilities and spells.  The other primary spellcaster classes requires paying through the nose MAD-wise, but it is doable, especially if I build my cleric as a Face from the beginning.
> 
> Do you have a recommendation?


I don't have a "good" recommendation.  But like you, I built towards some face stats/skills from the start.  So I multiclassed into sorcerer.

The main thing I'd consider in picking a second class/subclass is the thematics of the character.  For instance, I did a Trickery/Aberrant Mind mix.  Subtle spells and telepathy make him a better trickster.  Illusions, detect thoughts, suggestion and Invisibility complement his core theme.  Others could be Order/Clockwork, or Tempest/Storm.  The warlocks also have some good thematics, of course.  But losing out on higher spell slots makes this too painful (since cleric combat spells upcast quite well).  I'd suspect that some of the wizard schools might also work nicely for PC with decent Int.

But let me reiterate - you'll probably be more _powerful_ if you just stick with a single class.  I just feel like Divine Intervention and the utter lack of domain spells at the higher levels make the cleric's problem of feeling uninspiring even worse by losing most or all of the subclass _flavor_ as you move into tiers 3 & 4.

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## ATHATH

> By level 13, you haven't really got much new and exciting.  You are still _fine_, because you were great at level 10 so even with just modest improvement you are not far behind.


Uh, level 13 is when you get Conjure Celestial, which lets you summon what is basically Martian Manhunter, minus the intangibility and weakness to fire. And then bind it for a month using Planar Binding*. Flight, telepathy, (access to) inhuman strength, mind-reading, truesight, *an immunity to (nonmagical) bullets*, potent spellcasting, a near-perfect statline, a basic attack that procs a save or lose on each hit, the ability to casually spoof Inception, *Lesser Shapechange*, the ability to passively *double* piercing damage in an aura (using the aforementioned LS), couatls have it all. And summoning one is almost explicitly the intention of the spell, too (see the linked post for details).

Unironically, given the choice between a couatl and a simulacrum of a 13th level party member, I'd take the couatl. They are _that good_.


*Put Conjure Celestial in a Glyph of Warding so that you can cast PB while it's active or have another party member do the binding.

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## Person_Man

I tend to prefer half casters like the Paladin and Artificer as balance for high level 5E.  A good range of fun options, but not a lot of automatic win buttons that can completely blow up the game multiple times per session.  So I like the Cleric (and most Warlocks) mostly as-is.  Whereas I think spells like Foresight or Simulacron should come with more significant limitations.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

By comparison, is the Cleric's closest relative, the Druid any better for tier 3?  Both classes get the same spell slots and ASIs obviously.  Unless you're a Moon subclass, wildshape stops scaling.  Druids get 1 subclass ability at 14th.  Whether or not that's better or worse than the scaling of Divine Intervention and Destroy Undead is pretty situational and depends on the Druid subclass ability.

So, is the Druid spell list that much better that the same 'lackluster' claim can't be made about them?

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## sithlordnergal

> By comparison, is the Cleric's closest relative, the Druid any better for tier 3?  Both classes get the same spell slots and ASIs obviously.  Unless you're a Moon subclass, wildshape stops scaling.  Druids get 1 subclass ability at 14th.  Whether or not that's better or worse than the scaling of Divine Intervention and Destroy Undead is pretty situational and depends on the Druid subclass ability.
> 
> So, is the Druid spell list that much better that the same 'lackluster' claim can't be made about them?


I find Druids tend to be a lot more fun at T3 than Clerics, for the most part. One of the big things helps is the fact that the Druid spell list is a lot more varried at high levels. Additionally, most of the 14th level abilities either add something fun or useful to what you can do. The only one with a really lackluster 14th level ability is the Land Druid, but even then that's handy if you run into Beasts or Plants at that level.

EDIT: Thinking about it, I bet one of the reasons Druids don't seem as lackluster is because of the spacing of their abilities. The Cleric is the only class I can think of that doesn't actually get something substantial or interesting between levels 11 to 15. Every other class gets something at those levels. Clerics get a +1% to the chance of Divine Intervention working, and they can destroy CR 3 undead. Compare that to every other class in the game. Even ability light classes, like Barbarians, get more things than that.

The Clerics only get something interesting at level 16. Six levels is a long time to go without anything interesting. And that would be fine if the Cleric spell list made up for it. Hell, you could strip out all of the Wizard's high level abilities and they could coast on their spell list alone. But the Cleric spell list is a far cry from the Wizard spell list. The Cleric can't coast along on their spell list alone

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## Zuras

> By comparison, is the Cleric's closest relative, the Druid any better for tier 3?  Both classes get the same spell slots and ASIs obviously.  Unless you're a Moon subclass, wildshape stops scaling.  Druids get 1 subclass ability at 14th.  Whether or not that's better or worse than the scaling of Divine Intervention and Destroy Undead is pretty situational and depends on the Druid subclass ability.
> 
> So, is the Druid spell list that much better that the same 'lackluster' claim can't be made about them?


Its not so much better as more flashy.  Plus, you get fun synergies with other abilities.  As a Druid you can do stuff like wildshape into an elemental while using Sunbeam to fly around like Iron Man, or (my personal favorite) turn into a gargantuan dinosaur with Investiture of Wind on to be a giant flying shield.

Nothing quite like getting to say save yourself mammal, we will fend off the asteroids in proper context durning a game.

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## Guy Lombard-O

> The Cleric is the only class I can think of that doesn't actually get something substantial or interesting between levels 11 to 15. Every other class gets something at those levels. Clerics get a +1% to the chance of Divine Intervention working, and they can destroy CR 3 undead. Compare that to every other class in the game. Even ability light classes, like Barbarians, get more things than that.
> 
> The Clerics only get something interesting at level 16. Six levels is a long time to go without anything interesting.


All Clerics get at 16th level is an ASI.  It's 17th where they get a subclass ability.  So that's 7 levels without anything interesting except spells, by your count.  And that's assuming that the 17th level ability is good.  The only high-level cleric I played was a trickery, and the 17th level ability is unusable at those levels.  Concentration is way, way too important to lend to a minor, janky power in any serious battle.  So by my score, it was 10 levels without anything interesting.

And that's assuming that Divine Intervention is actually "interesting".  Which I'm not sure I'm willing to concede.  Powerful?  Yes.  Reliable?  Only come 20th level.  But...interesting?

I think DI is not particularly interesting.  And that's because it doesn't feel like me, the player, figuring out a solution to whatever the problem is.  It's not even me pressing the correct spell "button" to best fit the situation.  Instead, even when it works DI is basically me telling the DM "Hey, why don't you figure out a good way to solve this problem for me."  It's not my call what happens.  It's more or less just a die roll, and then a solution appears without my input.  So...meh.  To me, that's just not a serious enticement to play a higher level cleric.

So for me, there was nothing particularly interesting except some of the spells for the upper 11 levels of Cleric.

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## sithlordnergal

> All Clerics get at 16th level is an ASI.  It's 17th where they get a subclass ability.  So that's 7 levels without anything interesting except spells, by your count.  And that's assuming that the 17th level ability is good.  The only high-level cleric I played was a trickery, and the 17th level ability is unusable at those levels.  Concentration is way, way too important to lend to a minor, janky power in any serious battle.  So by my score, it was 10 levels without anything interesting.
> 
> And that's assuming that Divine Intervention is actually "interesting".  Which I'm not sure I'm willing to concede.  Powerful?  Yes.  Reliable?  Only come 20th level.  But...interesting?
> 
> I think DI is not particularly interesting.  And that's because it doesn't feel like me, the player, figuring out a solution to whatever the problem is.  It's not even me pressing the correct spell "button" to best fit the situation.  Instead, even when it works DI is basically me telling the DM "Hey, why don't you figure out a good way to solve this problem for me."  It's not my call what happens.  It's more or less just a die roll, and then a solution appears without my input.  So...meh.  To me, that's just not a serious enticement to play a higher level cleric.
> 
> So for me, there was nothing particularly interesting except some of the spells for the upper 11 levels of Cleric.



Geh, level 17!?! I miscounted...Clerics get literally nothing at all for T3 outside of Divine Intervention, Spells, and the ability to destroy CR 2 and 3 Undead with their Channel Divinity. And I hate to say it, but none of those are really good enough to carry the class on its own to T4. DI is strong, but its not interesting, and you're only increasing the chance for it to proc by 1% each level. Good luck rolling a 16 of lower on a d100. The Destroy Undead is really sort of a ribbon since it only works on low CR undead when you're very high level. And while the 6th to 8th level Cleric spells are nice, I wouldn't say any of them are good enough to carry the entire class on their own.

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## MrStabby

> Geh, level 17!?! I miscounted...Clerics get literally nothing at all for T3 outside of Divine Intervention, Spells, and the ability to destroy CR 2 and 3 Undead with their Channel Divinity. And I hate to say it, but none of those are really good enough to carry the class on its own to T4. DI is strong, but its not interesting, and you're only increasing the chance for it to proc by 1% each level. Good luck rolling a 16 of lower on a d100. The Destroy Undead is really sort of a ribbon since it only works on low CR undead when you're very high level. And while the 6th to 8th level Cleric spells are nice, I wouldn't say any of them are good enough to carry the entire class on their own.


Huh.  I tend to think the opposite.  The situations where I am willing to use an action for a 10%ish chance of something happening are probably ut of combat or out of spells situations.  I wouldn't call it a powerful ability, at least not in that sense.

Interesting - yes.  Very much.  Now just copying a spell is boring; I won't claim this is the fun bit.  But you specify how you want your god to help which can poen a lt of doors and is fantastic for roleplay or more thematic choices.  A knowledge cleric might ask for the party t be bestowed with knowledge of enemies weaknesses, so the DM rules that the party now strikes at their weak points and every hit is a crit.  Or a naure cleric might ask for the cavern to be filled with animated vines restraining and attacking all enemies, or a war cleric betowing epic weapon enhancements or whatever.  It really gives a chance for the cleric player to express what they think their god should beable to do and to get someting mechanically fun,

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## Rav

If your Cleric was interesting and fun to play by T2, it still is in T3. You didn't lose anything.

It's an odd attitude to take, sure you progress slower in T3 than some other classes. but you're also on top of the hill at t2 play. You're arguably even superior to the generally top dog wizard in T2. Especially some of the sub-classes are just bonkers. Twilight might be the single most powerful class in the game in T2 only rivaled by maybe... maybe... a Peace Cleric.

You cannot expect the same power curve to continue launching you into the stratosphere. It had to slow down at some point and T3 is where it does. But it doesn't 'stop' either.

Any features based on proficiency bonus continue growing. Any features based on level continue growing. You continue getting more and higher level slots and can afford to up-cast your spells more often. And to GREAT effect. There are very few spells that up-cast as good as cleric spells up-cast. 

And you can literally bring the dead back to life. I can't for the life of me understand how anyone could possibly bemoan the "uselessness" of the t3 cleric. It's an outrageous position to take. They're easily top dog, or a close 2nd still.

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## JNAProductions

> If your Cleric was interesting and fun to play by T2, it still is in T3. You didn't lose anything.
> 
> It's an odd attitude to take, sure you progress slower in T3 than some other classes. but you're also on top of the hill at t2 play. You're arguably even superior to the generally top dog wizard in T2. Especially some of the sub-classes are just bonkers. Twilight might be the single most powerful class in the game in T2 only rivaled by maybe... maybe... a Peace Cleric.
> 
> You cannot expect the same power curve to continue launching you into the stratosphere. It had to slow down at some point and T3 is where it does. But it doesn't 'stop' either.
> 
> Any features based on proficiency bonus continue growing. Any features based on level continue growing. You continue getting more and higher level slots and can afford to up-cast your spells more often. And to GREAT effect. There are very few spells that up-cast as good as cleric spells up-cast. 
> 
> And you can literally bring the dead back to life. I can't for the life of me understand how anyone could possibly bemoan the "uselessness" of the t3 cleric. It's an outrageous position to take. They're easily top dog, or a close 2nd still.


Again, I don't think lackluster means "Bad" or "Incompetent" or anything like that.
In this context, it's referring to T3 Clerics all feeling quite similar to one another, and often samey across different combats.

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## sithlordnergal

> Huh.  I tend to think the opposite.  The situations where I am willing to use an action for a 10%ish chance of something happening are probably ut of combat or out of spells situations.  I wouldn't call it a powerful ability, at least not in that sense.
> 
> Interesting - yes.  Very much.  Now just copying a spell is boring; I won't claim this is the fun bit.  But you specify how you want your god to help which can poen a lt of doors and is fantastic for roleplay or more thematic choices.  A knowledge cleric might ask for the party t be bestowed with knowledge of enemies weaknesses, so the DM rules that the party now strikes at their weak points and every hit is a crit.  Or a naure cleric might ask for the cavern to be filled with animated vines restraining and attacking all enemies, or a war cleric betowing epic weapon enhancements or whatever.  It really gives a chance for the cleric player to express what they think their god should beable to do and to get someting mechanically fun,


See, I would be ok with it if it increased by a 5% chance each level. Start with 5% at level 10, 10% at level 11, 15% at level 12, and so on, until you have nearly a 50% chance at level 19, and then it jumps to 100% at level 20. As it stands, I think I've only ever seen a Cleric manage to get it to work once before level 20. And I basically only play T3 and T4 now via AL and homebrew. Its strong sure, and it can have interesting effects. But its not exactly an interesting ability, nor is having the chance of it working increase by 1% every level be very interesting





> If your Cleric was interesting and fun to play by T2, it still is in T3. You didn't lose anything.
> 
> It's an odd attitude to take, sure you progress slower in T3 than some other classes. but you're also on top of the hill at t2 play. You're arguably even superior to the generally top dog wizard in T2. Especially some of the sub-classes are just bonkers. Twilight might be the single most powerful class in the game in T2 only rivaled by maybe... maybe... a Peace Cleric.
> 
> You cannot expect the same power curve to continue launching you into the stratosphere. It had to slow down at some point and T3 is where it does. But it doesn't 'stop' either.
> 
> Any features based on proficiency bonus continue growing. Any features based on level continue growing. You continue getting more and higher level slots and can afford to up-cast your spells more often. And to GREAT effect. There are very few spells that up-cast as good as cleric spells up-cast. 
> 
> And you can literally bring the dead back to life. I can't for the life of me understand how anyone could possibly bemoan the "uselessness" of the t3 cleric. It's an outrageous position to take. They're easily top dog, or a close 2nd still.



Its really not that interesting at T3 though. They get nothing in T3 outside of some new spells, and while those spells are handy, they are not ground breaking by any means. If the Cleric spell list was on par with the Wizard, then I'd agree with you, but its not. And while the Cleric is just getting improved proficiency bonus stuff and higher level spell slots, other classes are gaining things like:

- Any Huge or smaller non-magical item you want, and a handful of other non-magical items, no price limit, for 4 to 5 hours

- Removing advantage on all attacks against you and treating all d20 rolls below a 10 as a 10 for Attacks, Saves, and Ability Checks

- Reducing damage you take to 0

- Making your illusions real


I.E. their 14th level subclass abilities. And its not like those classes are losing out on proficiency based abilities, or spell slots. If they're a full caster, they have the same number of slots as a Cleric, and if they're a Wizard they likely have better spells than a Cleric. And yeah, low level Cleric spells are decent...but they can't really hold a candle to things like Globe of Invulnerability, Irresistible Dance, Teleport, Fly, ect. As for bringing the dead back to life, that's sort of a pointless thing to bring up? The cost tends to be prohibitive, and bringing someone back from the dead generally means you had to fail in order to do it? My general suggestion for people is don't waste the gold, make a new character instead.

EDIT: Now, that's not to say they're bad. They're not, they're perfectly fine, middle of the road. They do well at what they were made to do. But they simply are not nearly as impressive as...well...everyone else at T3. They end up being lackluster in comparison. Of course, that could be my bias. I look at the Cleric spell list and usually end up wondering why it sucks in comparison to other full casters. Hell, I tend to find the Druid spell list to have more variety and use when you mix in their abilities compared to the Cleric.

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## Rav

I think I just disagree. They're not lackluster in T3 because they were already interesting BY the end of T2.

Yalls rational seems to be that they don't get a ton of new cool stuff in T3, which, ok. Their spells are still legit. But class feature-wise, sure, very little new stuff. 

But they don't need new stuff to be interesting because they already _were_ interesting. And they don't just suddenly become less interesting or fun.

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## sithlordnergal

> I think I just disagree. They're not lackluster in T3 because they were already interesting BY the end of T2.
> 
> Yalls rational seems to be that they don't get a ton of new cool stuff in T3, which, ok. Their spells are still legit. But class feature-wise, sure, very little new stuff. 
> 
> But they don't need new stuff to be interesting because they already _were_ interesting. And they don't just suddenly become less interesting or fun.



I mean, if you find doing the same thing over and over interesting, then that's interesting to you. Personally, I don't think doing the exact same thing is not interesting. Their higher level spells are not very interesting, or even that good, with very few outstanding spells. The fact that they get nothing outside of those very basic things that everyone gets for all of T3 is what makes them lackluster and uninteresting at T3. Again, if their spell list were better, then I'd be fine with it. You could strip every ability Wizards get at T3, and some of their T4 abilities, and they'd be fine with their spell list alone. Clerics are not nearly as good.

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## Rav

> I mean, if you find doing the same thing over and over interesting, then that's interesting to you. Personally, I don't think doing the exact same thing is not interesting. Their higher level spells are not very interesting, or even that good, with very few outstanding spells. The fact that they get nothing outside of those very basic things that everyone gets for all of T3 is what makes them lackluster and uninteresting at T3. Again, if their spell list were better, then I'd be fine with it. You could strip every ability Wizards get at T3, and some of their T4 abilities, and they'd be fine with their spell list alone. Clerics are not nearly as good.


Okay. they STILL have all the cool stuff they can do from T1 an T2. These cool things didn't go away. I guess I just don't understand how you got all the way to tier 3 play, failed to develop an interesting character any point leading up this point, and then decided overnight that T3 way to blame. If your character was cool in T1 and t2 play, they still are in T3.

The only thing that could change would be loss of power or throughput. If you can do cool stuff by the end of T2, you still can in T3. But if you're not able to output the numbers expected of T3 then that'd be an issue. But that isn't anyone's complaint here. T3 clerics pump out fine numbers. So really the only complaint is that while they were super interesting and had the best features and craziest more amazing power curve through T2, it slowed down in T3 and other classes caught up. That's not a valid critique.

But to _your_ point, you claim their spells are "not even that good". That's just not true... high level clerics can do crazy things. Heal is huge. That makes in-combat healing an actual thing. That makes sense to even spend your action on. But stuff like Blade barrier lets ou do some decent battlefield control. Word of Recall is unbelievably great for travel. And Truesight is... well, broken in all the best kinds of ways. Heros' Feast? Immunity to conditions, advantage on saves, extra actual HP? Just unbelievably good. And that's just 6th level spell options. Under no definition can these be called bad. They just can't.
And 7th level cleric spells? Talk about powerful. You can bring people back from the dead. Temple of the Gods is crazy cool, have you ever read it? You create this massive holy temple to your deity, all kinds of cool perks. Really wanna just get away from it all? You can Plane Shift. Prefer somewhere less... alive? how about Etherealness. You can go hang out with the ghosts. Got someone who is permanently disabled? missing arms, legs, etc? Regeneration. 7th level spells are ALSO crazy good.
But T3 caps off at 8th level spells, and here we have the ability to...turn off magic. Yes. You can just turn off magic. Antimagic field is OP. What else you got? oh, right. the ability to control the weather itself in a 5 mile radius. No big deal. What else? Cause earthquakes in a 500ft range. Collapsing buildings and structures and causing devastation the likes a T3 martial character couldn't even imagine causing. Anything else? Oh right, Holy Aura. The spell effect that makes all your allies roll saves at advantage, yes...all saves. Oh and makes any attack against them have disadvantage. Yes... all attacks.

These spells are so far from "not even that good" it is comical. Maybe you don't like their vibe or whatever. That's perfectly fine. Play a wizard. But these spells ain't weak.

----------


## JNAProductions

> Okay. they STILL have all the cool stuff they can do from T1 an T2. These cool things didn't go away. I guess I just don't understand how you got all the way to tier 3 play, failed to develop an interesting character any point leading up this point, and then decided overnight that T3 way to blame. If your character was cool in T1 and t2 play, they still are in T3.
> 
> The only thing that could change would be loss of power or throughput. If you can do cool stuff by the end of T2, you still can in T3. But if you're not able to output the numbers expected of T3 then that'd be an issue. But that isn't anyone's complaint here. T3 clerics pump out fine numbers. So really the only complaint is that while they were super interesting and had the best features and craziest more amazing power curve through T2, it slowed down in T3 and other classes caught up. That's not a valid critique.
> 
> But to _your_ point, you claim their spells are "not even that good". That's just not true... high level clerics can do crazy things. Heal is huge. That makes in-combat healing an actual thing. That makes sense to even spend your action on. But stuff like Blade barrier lets ou do some decent battlefield control. Word of Recall is unbelievably great for travel. And Truesight is... well, broken in all the best kinds of ways. Heros' Feast? Immunity to conditions, advantage on saves, extra actual HP? Just unbelievably good. And that's just 6th level spell options. Under no definition can these be called bad. They just can't.
> And 7th level cleric spells? Talk about powerful. You can bring people back from the dead. Temple of the Gods is crazy cool, have you ever read it? You create this massive holy temple to your deity, all kinds of cool perks. Really wanna just get away from it all? You can Plane Shift. Prefer somewhere less... alive? how about Etherealness. You can go hang out with the ghosts. Got someone who is permanently disabled? missing arms, legs, etc? Regeneration. 7th level spells are ALSO crazy good.
> But T3 caps off at 8th level spells, and here we have the ability to...turn off magic. Yes. You can just turn off magic. Antimagic field is OP. What else you got? oh, right. the ability to control the weather itself in a 5 mile radius. No big deal. What else? Cause earthquakes in a 500ft range. Collapsing buildings and structures and causing devastation the likes a T3 martial character couldn't even imagine causing. Anything else? Oh right, Holy Aura. The spell effect that makes all your allies roll saves at advantage, yes...all saves. Oh and makes any attack against them have disadvantage. Yes... all attacks.
> 
> These spells are so far from "not even that good" it is comical. Maybe you don't like their vibe or whatever. That's perfectly fine. Play a wizard. But these spells ain't weak.


If feature X is interesting, but lacks the requisite oomph to meet competency; while feature Y has the numbers needed, but is boring, then you're stuck between playing an incompetent PC or a boring one.

Not saying that that's true for Clerics, but your logic falls flat.

----------


## sithlordnergal

> Okay. they STILL have all the cool stuff they can do from T1 an T2. These cool things didn't go away. I guess I just don't understand how you got all the way to tier 3 play, failed to develop an interesting character any point leading up this point, and then decided overnight that T3 way to blame. If your character was cool in T1 and t2 play, they still are in T3.
> 
> The only thing that could change would be loss of power or throughput. If you can do cool stuff by the end of T2, you still can in T3. But if you're not able to output the numbers expected of T3 then that'd be an issue. But that isn't anyone's complaint here. T3 clerics pump out fine numbers. So really the only complaint is that while they were super interesting and had the best features and craziest more amazing power curve through T2, it slowed down in T3 and other classes caught up. That's not a valid critique.


I don't actually think that your statement is true. Consider martial classes like the Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue. You can find a plethora of examples of people talking about how those three become lackluster and uninteresting to play in tiers 3 and 4. Does this mean they were uninteresting classes in tiers 1 and 2? Not at all. So what's happening here? Well...by the time you're in T3, you've been using those same abilities in likely the same manner for the last 10 levels. Most campaigns usually last about 4-6 months, with some lasting up to a year, and most campaigns only reach level 10. Which means you've been doing sort of the same thing for up to a year, with very little variation.

The issue isn't the abilities, its just the fact that you're not really doing anything _new_ with them. Clerics are in an even worse position because their subclass abilities tend to be pretty limited in scope. They can be powerful, yes. But you're limited in how you can them outside of what they were designed to do. Clerics usually get their most flexible abilities at level 1. Their level 6 ability tends to be a passive buff, which is boring, or an ability you can only use in a specific situation, like negating a crit or granting resistance to Elemental damage. Their level 8 ability is _always_ a buff to damage, be it cantrips or melee attacks. Then they get nothing else until level 17. 

By the time they reach level 17, those abilities have gotten stale. They're still just as powerful as they were when you first got them, in fact a few might be even more powerful. But, and here's the key, power does not equal interesting.

Now, you might say "Wait, the Druid's Wildshape is an ability you use from levels 2 to 20. Why aren't they considered uninteresting?" My answer to that is: You're not doing the same thing with Wildshape the entire time. Wildshape is an ability that is insanely flexible because you can change into different animals. You can use it in drastically different ways, unlike Channel Divinity. Additionally, a lot of people find Wildshape becomes uninteresting at around T3 for most Druids...which just so happens to be around the time it stops scaling for most Druids. Moon Druids are the exception because its constantly scaling every three levels, and only becomes boring by level 20. Which just so happens to be when it stops scaling. And even then, it still technically scales cause you can get new forms for it by finding new animals, letting it do new and different things. I can confidently say that if Wildshape used a static stat block that slowly improved over time, it woulds be just as uninteresting as any other ability.





> But to _your_ point, you claim their spells are "not even that good". That's just not true... high level clerics can do crazy things. Heal is huge. That makes in-combat healing an actual thing. That makes sense to even spend your action on. But stuff like Blade barrier lets ou do some decent battlefield control. Word of Recall is unbelievably great for travel. And Truesight is... well, broken in all the best kinds of ways. Heros' Feast? Immunity to conditions, advantage on saves, extra actual HP? Just unbelievably good. And that's just 6th level spell options. Under no definition can these be called bad. They just can't.
> And 7th level cleric spells? Talk about powerful. You can bring people back from the dead. Temple of the Gods is crazy cool, have you ever read it? You create this massive holy temple to your deity, all kinds of cool perks. Really wanna just get away from it all? You can Plane Shift. Prefer somewhere less... alive? how about Etherealness. You can go hang out with the ghosts. Got someone who is permanently disabled? missing arms, legs, etc? Regeneration. 7th level spells are ALSO crazy good.
> But T3 caps off at 8th level spells, and here we have the ability to...turn off magic. Yes. You can just turn off magic. Antimagic field is OP. What else you got? oh, right. the ability to control the weather itself in a 5 mile radius. No big deal. What else? Cause earthquakes in a 500ft range. Collapsing buildings and structures and causing devastation the likes a T3 martial character couldn't even imagine causing. Anything else? Oh right, Holy Aura. The spell effect that makes all your allies roll saves at advantage, yes...all saves. Oh and makes any attack against them have disadvantage. Yes... all attacks.
> 
> These spells are so far from "not even that good" it is comical. Maybe you don't like their vibe or whatever. That's perfectly fine. Play a wizard. But these spells ain't weak.


The majority of high level Cleric spells really aren't that great though. As I said before, clerics have a few outstanding spells...but not that many. They have about the same number as amazing spells as the Druid has, which are limited. In fact, I'd go so far to say the Druid list is slightly stronger since it has more variety, while also getting some of the best Cleric spells like Heal, Heroes Feast, Sunbeam, and their own version of Blade Barrier via Wall of Thorns. The Cleric is unable to rely on its spell list alone if it wants to remain interesting. Which is fine. There's only one full caster in the game that has a varied enough spell list that it could rely solely on its spells alone to remain interesting, and that's the Wizard. Whether you think that's a good thing or not is up to you.

Also, a lot of the spells you're mentioning sound cool on paper, but tend to be unimpressive when you actually cast them or are only really usable in very specific circumstances. For example, Temple of the Gods is a powerful spell, but the Hour long casting time means it'll really only see use as a 7th level Lemound's Tiny Hut, or a more protective Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion. Word of Recall has its own issues, in that you can't actually use it to travel to many places. Instead it takes you to one specific temple that you prepared ahead of time, and it has to be in a place, and I quote, "dedicated to or strongly linked to your deity. If you attempt to cast the spell in this manner in an area that isnt dedicated to your deity, the spell has no Effect." You can't just go anywhere with it. As for bringing back the dead, I wouldn't consider that interesting or powerful. And the cost is too prohibitive to be of actual use outside of "Oh ****, the a party member died".

Now, that's not to say Clerics have a bad spell list. Its a solid, middle of the road spell list, just like the Druid. But if a class is looking to just rely on spells alone for an entire tier of play, they need to have more than middle of the road. They need to have an insane spell list. As I said above, there's only one full caster in the game that could coast along through the entirety of T3 with their spell list alone, and that's the Wizard.

----------


## SociopathFriend

Part of it I think is just the spells aren't described as interesting sometimes.

Look at Fireball 

Fireball:



> A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame.


From the get-go you're looking at a spell with a visual and an audible cue of power that isn't reliant on mechanics to get across.

How many Cleric spells get that sort of thing? Spiritual Weapon has four sections of text and three and a half of them are just mechanical explanations of what it can do.

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## Thunderous Mojo

An Earthquake is not exciting enough for you?
Controlling the Weather, has no flash?
Creating a doorway to another universe is so dull and dated.apparently no likes Stargate or the His Dark Materials series.

Spirit Guardians looks like the end sequence for Raiders of the Lost Arc, but apparently has no style.

Healing and Raising the Dead tend to be considered big enough deals, that human, real world artwork literally abounds with depictions of both, but this, apparently, is not quite as exciting as a pea shaped blossom of Fire.🃏

For those that proposed multi-classing out of the Cleric class, how does one replace Astral Projection or Gate with middling level spells and subclass abilities?

Acerack is not known for appearing on ones doorstop, carrying their phylactery, begging for a quick and permanent disposal.

T3+ foes are often the heavy hitters of the multiverse, with influence that spans worlds and planes.  A Demon Lord/ Arch Devil/ Archangel, whom is an immortal spiritual being doesnt mind if you kill their avatar a time or two.

If Asmodeus has issued a Death Contract for you, eventually you are going to have to kill Asmodeus in Nessus, or be hunted for the rest of your life.

A cleric has a much lower opportunity cost to just prepare Gate or Astral Projection, when compared to Wizards and other classes that have Spells Known.

Earthquake is immensely impactful as a Narrative power.

Im seeing luster, not its lack.

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## SociopathFriend

> An Earthquake is not exciting enough for you?
> Controlling the Weather, has no flash?


I'm not saying the spells have no flash- only that they generally spend a lot more time spelling out mechanics and have comparatively less _written_ flash than Wizards. Or at least it feels like that at times.

Look at the start of the descriptions for these two spells.

Earthquake:



> You create a seismic disturbance at a point on the ground that you can see within range. For the Duration, *an intense tremor rips through the ground* in a 100-foot- radius circle centered on that point and shakes Creatures and Structures in contact with the ground in that area.


Control Weather:



> You take control of the weather within 5 miles of you for the duration. You must be outdoors to cast this spell. Moving to a place where you dont have a clear path to the sky ends the spell early.


One of these spells just from the start offers a lot more dramatic impact compared to the other. Control Weather can _ruin_ a city in a day but the description is just so _dry_ compared to Earthquake. I played Suikoden 5- *I* can provide the gravitas and power of controlling the weather and how its messing up everything. I can describe the clouds whirling overhead to dark and grow for example. But I have to add it- everyone knows Fireballs roar and Earthquakes shake.

This, I would argue, plays a part for the 'lackluster' perception of Cleric spells and Rangers too. 

One of my absolute favorite Cleric Spells (I will never pass the chance up to have it) is Death Ward. A spell that holds off death itself- but just about the whole spell is just mechanical description.

I don't think EVERY Cleric spell is so dry but I think it's a factor compared to other casters.

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## sithlordnergal

> An Earthquake is not exciting enough for you?
> Controlling the Weather, has no flash?
> Creating a doorway to another universe is so dull and dated.apparently no likes Stargate or the His Dark Materials series.
> 
> Spirit Guardians looks like the end sequence for Raiders of the Lost Arc, but apparently has no style.
> 
> Healing and Raising the Dead tend to be considered big enough deals, that human, real world artwork literally abounds with depictions of both, but this, apparently, is not quite as exciting as a pea shaped blossom of Fire.🃏
> 
> For those that proposed multi-classing out of the Cleric class, how does one replace Astral Projection or Gate with middling level spells and subclass abilities?
> ...


Earthquake? Exciting, yes, excellent spell.


Control Weather? No, not really. Not with how the spell is handled. Sure, you can turn a clear day into a blizzard in 5d4x10 minutes, but:

1) When are you ever going to bother using it?

and

2) Given how long it takes, when are you going to be using it effectively.

Its like Plant Growth's 8 hour casting version that lets you double the yield of an entire harvest for every plant in a half mile radius. That's a really strong effect...that will hardly ever see use. To make things worse, weather effects are kind of dubious. What does making a blizzard get you? Not that much actually. Disadvantage on perception checks due to obscurement, potentially a DC 10 Con save at the end of each hour if you've dropped the temperature below 0, if you're at see it can remove the ability to see all landmarks. The DM could add extra effects, but those are kind of the base effects. If its effects were more dramatic, then I'd be impressed by Control Weather. Like if it were closer to Storm of Vengeance. 


As for healing and bringing back the dead, in our world it would be amazing. But this isn't exactly our world we're talking about. I wouldn't even call Fireball exciting or interesting. Healing and dealing damage are not inherently interesting things to do in a fantasy world where you can:

- Summon up a small team of beasts that will follow your commands, or a small team of demons to send at your foes

- Create a full on hologram you control, complete with sounds, movement, smells, and temperature

- Speak with anything, no matter their language

- Control a person's mind

and far, far more. That's not to say spells like Cure Wounds, Fireball, and Heal are bad. Far from it. A lot of them are really, really good. But they're not all that interesting compared to things like Major Image, Simulacrum, Conjure Animal, Tongues, Polymorph, Dominate Person/Monster, ect.


As for the 9th level spells, I'm not really sure why you'd put Astral Projection on the same level as Gate...Its not that good of a spell...just use Plane Shift? Gate is extremely good, but at the same time...you're holding out until level 17 for that. In a game that might not even make it to level 17. And where you have to go through all of T3 with basically nothing. So why would you multiclass out of Cleric? For the same reason you'd multiclass out of Druid, Paladin, or Wizard. Those high level abilities and spells are simply not worth it the wait.

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## Schwann145

I think people don't realize how _weak_ a lot of high-level spells actually are, and unfortunately Cleric has quite a few of them on it's class list.
High level magic has this reputation as being entirely game breaking, but the truth of the matter is that this is only true of a very small handful of spells, while most spells just fall very very flat.

No one cares about 5th level Flame Strike in a world with 3rd level Fireball, for instance.
Blade Barrier is a pretty weak wall effect with a pretty unimpressive damage component. For your single 6th level spell of the day, one would expect more.
Regenerate is kind of worthless as limb loss is not a part of the core rules (outside of vorpal weapons, but I don't think Regenerate can help with that!)
Temple of the Gods is a really cool downtime activity spell, but it's not very great for active play.
Control Weather should make you feel like Storm from the X-Men, but it falls _faaaar_ short of that; it's an annoying inconvenience at worst because nature/weather effects just aren't designed to be strong.
Even pinnacle 9th level magic feels kinda meh: Astral Projection isn't really a player spell so much as it is a DM plot tool. True Resurrection is kinda in the same boat; if you need to revive someone, you could do that with much lower level magic while this is reserved for the plot-specific mcguffin corpse. Gate can bring _powerful_ creatures to your location, but offers you _zero_ influence over them, and influence is pretty important for summons/callings!

A lot of Cleric magic just ends up feeling unreliable, too weak for the required resource(s) spent, or more useful as a DM tool than a player spell. So the class _really_ needs non-spell abilities to fill in here, and there just... aren't any.
So what ends up happening is you up-cast ye olde reliables like Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians, but you've been doing that since _level five._ It doesn't matter how effective it can be if it's so stale you'd rather start a new game than level up your Cleric.

(In fact, if one removed Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians from the Cleric spell options, I wonder just how devastating that would be to the perception of the class. It seems to me that these two spells alone carry about 50% of the weight of the entire class! While tier 1 and early tier 2 Domain abilities do the rest of the lifting. For a full caster, that's kinda embarrassing!)

----------


## Rav

> I don't actually think that your statement is true. Consider martial classes like the Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue. You can find a plethora of examples of people talking about how those three become lackluster and uninteresting to play in tiers 3 and 4. Does this mean they were uninteresting classes in tiers 1 and 2? Not at all. So what's happening here? Well...by the time you're in T3, you've been using those same abilities in likely the same manner for the last 10 levels. Most campaigns usually last about 4-6 months, with some lasting up to a year, and most campaigns only reach level 10. Which means you've been doing sort of the same thing for up to a year, with very little variation.


No no. Martials are uninteresting in T3 and T4 play because they gained nothing new AND were uninteresting in T2 play....and also T1 play. They're never interesting. Hit enemy with big stick is their answer to all problems. Never interesting. (with a handful of exceptions)





> The issue isn't the abilities, its just the fact that you're not really doing anything _new_ with them. Clerics are in an even worse position because their subclass abilities tend to be pretty limited in scope. They can be powerful, yes. But you're limited in how you can them outside of what they were designed to do. Clerics usually get their most flexible abilities at level 1. Their level 6 ability tends to be a passive buff, which is boring, or an ability you can only use in a specific situation, like negating a crit or granting resistance to Elemental damage. Their level 8 ability is _always_ a buff to damage, be it cantrips or melee attacks. Then they get nothing else until level 17.


Again. You're now arguing that Clerics *were always* boring. This isn't a T3 specific critique. If you think clerics are always boring just play a different class. If you can't build an interesting or fun to play character using the cleric class, by the end of T2, really... play a different class.





> By the time they reach level 17, those abilities have gotten stale. They're still just as powerful as they were when you first got them, in fact a few might be even more powerful. But, and here's the key, power does not equal interesting.


I think I made this point....

They stay plenty powerful into T3. And if they were interesting by T2, they stay interesting into T3. A character doesn't become less interesting. They just don't. You NEVER lose abilities. And they still gain new spell levels and new spells. Can prepare more too.




> Now, you might say "Wait, the Druid's Wildshape is an ability you use from levels 2 to 20. Why aren't they considered uninteresting?" My answer to that is: You're not doing the same thing with Wildshape the entire time. Wildshape is an ability that is insanely flexible because you can change into different animals. You can use it in drastically different ways, unlike Channel Divinity. Additionally, a lot of people find Wildshape becomes uninteresting at around T3 for most Druids...which just so happens to be around the time it stops scaling for most Druids. Moon Druids are the exception because its constantly scaling every three levels, and only becomes boring by level 20. Which just so happens to be when it stops scaling. And even then, it still technically scales cause you can get new forms for it by finding new animals, letting it do new and different things. I can confidently say that if Wildshape used a static stat block that slowly improved over time, it woulds be just as uninteresting as any other ability.


Its rare to see someone make a point and then immediately counter-argue their own point. But you did it here.

My only addition to that is 1. I'd never argue wildshape is uninteresting. At any tier of play. of course it is interesting, you got hella cool options to choose from. But even on a character who somehow never gains new options after the initial batch at level 2 it would still remain an interesting feature even at level 20. because features don't become less interesting. If they're interesting at low levels they're interesting at high levels. Why? Because they're interesting.




> The majority of high level Cleric spells really aren't that great though. As I said before, clerics have a few outstanding spells...but not that many. They have about the same number as amazing spells as the Druid has, which are limited. In fact, I'd go so far to say the Druid list is slightly stronger since it has more variety, while also getting some of the best Cleric spells like Heal, Heroes Feast, Sunbeam, and their own version of Blade Barrier via Wall of Thorns. The Cleric is unable to rely on its spell list alone if it wants to remain interesting. Which is fine. There's only one full caster in the game that has a varied enough spell list that it could rely solely on its spells alone to remain interesting, and that's the Wizard. Whether you think that's a good thing or not is up to you.


Just no. Your entire argument boils down to "Only the wizard is interesting in T3 play". Stop. That's ridiculous. The fact clerics and druids have powerful and interesting spells, by your own admission... is enough to dispel any notion they don't get anything new in T3 to play with. they do. New spells. Powerful ones.

But hey, unconvinced? You truly believe the only single solitary class that is interesting in T3 is the wizard? Go play wizards, dude. You don't think clerics are interesting in T1 or T2 play either. So it sounds like you just got a thing for a different class. Just... play them, then. Leave the cleric convo to people who actually like playing clerics.




> Also, a lot of the spells you're mentioning sound cool on paper, but tend to be unimpressive when you actually cast them or are only really usable in very specific circumstances. For example, Temple of the Gods is a powerful spell, but the Hour long casting time means it'll really only see use as a 7th level Lemound's Tiny Hut, or a more protective Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion. Word of Recall has its own issues, in that you can't actually use it to travel to many places. Instead it takes you to one specific temple that you prepared ahead of time, and it has to be in a place, and I quote, "dedicated to or strongly linked to your deity. If you attempt to cast the spell in this manner in an area that isnt dedicated to your deity, the spell has no Effect." You can't just go anywhere with it. As for bringing back the dead, I wouldn't consider that interesting or powerful. And the cost is too prohibitive to be of actual use outside of "Oh ****, the a party member died".


I'm sorry. Bringing back the dead. "Not interesting. Not powerful." I can't even.

"Oh I know I have power over life and death itself but I'm so weak! Tee hee." Really?

Bringing people back, changing fate and destiny and the course of history itself by saying no to death. It is such a powerful and iconic power. I have no idea how anyone could scoff at this. The raw power to simply decide to bring back whoever you want from the dead is absolutely bonkers. Have you ever stopped to consider the RP considerations for this? For whom you might bring back? Which organizations would kill for this favor??




> Now, that's not to say Clerics have a bad spell list. Its a solid, middle of the road spell list, just like the Druid. But if a class is looking to just rely on spells alone for an entire tier of play, they need to have more than middle of the road. They need to have an insane spell list. As I said above, there's only one full caster in the game that could coast along through the entirety of T3 with their spell list alone, and that's the Wizard.


Rely on spells alone? What are you even talking about?? they didn't LOSE their earlier abilities dude. you keep talking like their lower level abilities are just gone now. They NOT. You still have all the OP stuff you gained up until the end of T2. They do NOT have a middle of the road spell list. It is top notch. Primo. The two most powerful subclasses in the whole game come from the cleric class. Their features are nutty, and they stay nutty into T3.

....

Look, it is valid to say they don't gain a lot of new class features in T3. This is true. And it is valid to say that makes the sense of progression slow down. That's true too. But they still are top dog or a close 2nd, in terms of power and effectiveness, going into T3. So there is zero need to bemoan some imagined loss of interesting features. They *do not lose* features!

----------


## Thunderous Mojo

> Control Weather? No, not really. Not with how the spell is handled. Sure, you can turn a clear day into a blizzard in 5d4x10 minutes, but:
> 
> 1) When are you ever going to bother using it?


The muddy fields fields of Agincourt(🫳🎤).
Earthquake and Control Weather alone turn a character into a powerhouse. During periods of the Roman Empire, bad Harvests in Egypt, would lead directly to riots in Rome.

Two spells gives a single player character the power to disrupt empires.
This is T3+, there is a good chance the game narrative has moved beyond dungeons made up of simple rooms.




> As for the 9th level spells, I'm not really sure why you'd put Astral Projection on the same level as Gate...Its not that good of a spell...just use Plane Shift?


Plane Shift has this material component: 
(_a forked, metal rod worth at least 250 gp, attuned to a particular plane of existence)_

The history of D&D abounds with this particular requirement being the start of quests, and difficult to acquire.  Astral Projection has more expensive material components, but the items are of a more _off the shelf_ nature, and _might_ be simpler to acquire.  It is a point of consideration. If attuned tuning forks to other planes are easy to find then one might need nothing more than Plane Shift.

Astral Projection does serve as the emergency escape button of last resort, when capture is inevitable. At worst, Your foe has possession of your body, until your spirit takes form in another planar realm. 

A single class cleric, does not have to make the choice of being Between Scylla and Charybdisthey can prepare either spell, or both, or neither.  A T4 cleric has more travel options then a T2 Cleric.

Zero Sum spell choice considerations, are less impactful, (or eliminated), due to a clerics spell preparation method.




> Gate is extremely good, but at the same time...you're holding out until level 17 for that. In a game that might not even make it to level 17. And where you have to go through all of T3 with basically nothing. So why would you multiclass out of Cleric? For the same reason you'd multiclass out of Druid, Paladin, or Wizard. Those high level abilities and spells are simply not worth it the wait.


*Every class is lackluster in T3, if your game never actually enters that tier.*
The question posed by the thread presumes the game is getting to T3, your viewpoint quoted above, is not particularly germane.

I would rather have access to _Lackluster_ 8th and 9th level spells, compared to some extra Fourth Level spells in T3 & T4, because 9th level spells are generally that useful.

----------


## animorte

> Look, it is valid to say they don't gain a lot of new class features in T3. This is true. And it is valid to say that makes the sense of progression slow down. That's true too. But they still are top dog or a close 2nd, in terms of power and effectiveness, going into T3. So there is zero need to bemoan some imagined loss of interesting features. They *do not lose* features!


This is what people generally tend to focus on. You could give a character ultimate power, but heaven forbid they have a few dead levels. Thats what its about.

I personally have never had a problem with Clerics, but I can see why some people do. If youre playing a game in which most people in your party get new toys (sub/class features) to play with consistently, it _can_ feel lackluster.

Im glad theyre moving forward with standardizing subclass progression.

----------


## sithlordnergal

> -SNIP-


The majority of your argument relies on the idea that if something was interesting at the start of the game, then it automatically remains interesting at the end of the game. However, this is a fallacy. Just because an ability is interesting at the start of the game does not mean it automatically remains interesting through all tiers of play. Case in point, the Echo Knight's Echo is an interesting ability. It lets you basically create a 1hp shadow clone of yourself. That's interesting. Unfortunately, its also very limited in its function. Its not a proper creature, so it can't really interact with things, and it has to remain within 30ft of you at all times unless you use your 7th level ability. It will, eventually, become stale and will become less interesting over time the more you use it.

Cleric abilities fall into that same category. They're interesting when you get them, but they become stale after a while. Its not that you lose them, its that they become stale and less interesting to use over time because you've done it so many times.





> Just no. Your entire argument boils down to "Only the wizard is interesting in T3 play". Stop. That's ridiculous. The fact clerics and druids have powerful and interesting spells, by your own admission... is enough to dispel any notion they don't get anything new in T3 to play with. they do. New spells. Powerful ones.
> 
> But hey, unconvinced? You truly believe the only single solitary class that is interesting in T3 is the wizard? Go play wizards, dude. You don't think clerics are interesting in T1 or T2 play either. So it sounds like you just got a thing for a different class. Just... play them, then. Leave the cleric convo to people who actually like playing clerics.


When have I once said that Wizards are the only interesting class to play in T3? I haven't. What I _have_ said is that Wizards are the only class in the game that would remain just as interesting to play in T3 if you stripped out _all_ of their T3 features. A Bard is extremely interesting to play in T3, but not because of their spell list alone. Its because they have unique and interesting subclass abilities, for the most part, that they get at level 14, along with Magical Secrets, on top of their spell list. If you stripped out the Magical Secrets and Subclass Ability gained at level 14, they would be substantially less interesting to play in T3. And the same holds true of every other class except the Wizard.

And the reason I make that statement is because the Cleric is trying to do that. They are trying to coast through T3 with spells alone, but their spell list is not diverse enough or strong enough to do so. 





> I'm sorry. Bringing back the dead. "Not interesting. Not powerful." I can't even.
> 
> "Oh I know I have power over life and death itself but I'm so weak! Tee hee." Really?
> 
> Bringing people back, changing fate and destiny and the course of history itself by saying no to death. It is such a powerful and iconic power. I have no idea how anyone could scoff at this. The raw power to simply decide to bring back whoever you want from the dead is absolutely bonkers. Have you ever stopped to consider the RP considerations for this? For whom you might bring back? Which organizations would kill for this favor??


In a fantasy world like DnD? No, bringing back the dead is _not_ very interesting or powerful. Now, if you turn it into some kind of major plot point, I guess it could be made interesting. Like if you have to raise someone who's soul is either unwilling or has been captured, that could become an interesting campaign. But even then, the spell used to bring them back from the dead wouldn't be the interesting part of the campaign. 

Also, I doubt many organizations would kill for such an ability in most DnD settings. Just about every DM I've talked to uses some variation of the equation: 

((level x level) x 10) + (consumed material cost x 2) + (0.10 x non-consumed material cost)

for the price of their spell casting services. Using that equation, a single Raise Dead spell costs less than a set of mundane Full Plate armor. I can't think of many organizations in a DnD setting that would kill over something cheaper than mundane full plate.

----------


## Schwann145

> They stay plenty powerful into T3. And if they were interesting by T2, they stay interesting into T3. A character doesn't become less interesting. They just don't. You NEVER lose abilities. And they still gain new spell levels and new spells. Can prepare more too.


This topic isn't so much about character effectiveness as it is about character growth.
What makes the leveling process fun and interesting is character growth: you get fun new abilities and/or fun new ways to use old abilities.
Clerics, in t3, are significantly lacking in this growth, which makes leveling them feel bland and unexciting.

Yes, to your point, Cleric does get fun and interesting abilities in t1 and t2, and they don't lose them in t3. But the question is, why stick around Cleric in t3 if you can keep your t1/t2 abilities and multiclass into something else that isn't full of dead levels?
If multiclassing is always more interesting than sticking with Cleric, then Cleric has a problem that needs addressing.

----------


## Thunderous Mojo

> In a fantasy world like DnD? No, bringing back the dead is _not_ very interesting or powerful. Now, if you turn it into some kind of major plot point, I guess it could be made interesting. Like if you have to raise someone who's soul is either unwilling or has been captured, that could become an interesting campaign. But even then, the spell used to bring them back from the dead wouldn't be the interesting part of the campaign. 
> 
> Also, I doubt many organizations would kill for such an ability in most DnD settings. Just about every DM I've talked to uses some variation of the equation: 
> 
> ((level x level) x 10) + (consumed material cost x 2) + (0.10 x non-consumed material cost)
> 
> for the price of their spell casting services. Using that equation, a single Raise Dead spell costs less than a set of mundane Full Plate armor. I can't think of many organizations in a DnD setting that would kill over something cheaper than mundane full plate.


That is an interesting perspective.
One of the issues with using _that_ single formula to determine the price for spellcasting services, is this formula is _not_ applying economic principles.

The formula above, assumes all spellcasting services are wanted equally, and can be provided equally, which is, (Im afraid), a poor simulation.

What is more valuable, someone casting Daylight for you or someone casting Raise Dead on you?  

Every living creature, _theoretically_, has some potential _want_ for the Raise Dead spell.  This is a supply and demand issue.  How much capacity a society has for Raising the Dead, and how much appetite this society has for being Raised from the Dead is going to determine the price.

One is _lucky_ if one _only_ has to pay gold for a Raise Dead service.  In games were there is a severe scarcity of providers of Raise Dead, the cost for services can be well beyond treasures and trinkets.

----------


## Amnestic

> Yes, to your point, Cleric does get fun and interesting abilities in t1 and t2, and they don't lose them in t3. But the question is, why stick around Cleric in t3 if you can keep your t1/t2 abilities and multiclass into something else that isn't full of dead levels?


Because their 6th+ level spells are still good? And useful? And cool?

Like are we really saying that getting a few druid cantrips and baby wild shape is really better than getting access to Heroes Feast, Sunbeam or True Seeing? Nah. 

Conjure Celestial (Couatl) is just busted good compared to whatever a druid subclass is offering you, as previous posts have detailed.
Regenerate is a guaranteed, "actionless", non-concentration yo-yo heal every single turn a character goes down, at the start of their turn. They're always getting back on their feet. The limb heal is definitely more of a plot thing with current rules but hey turns out healing people's limbs can be quite valuable when you need a 7th+ level spell to do it. That's the sort of power that gets you in with royalty. Ditto for Resurrection.

"I only got 3-4 really cool and useful new spells at each new spell level  instead of 6-8!" doesn't make them dead levels.

----------


## diplomancer

> Because their 6th+ level spells are still good? And useful? And cool?
> 
> Like are we really saying that getting a few druid cantrips and baby wild shape is really better than getting access to Heroes Feast, Sunbeam or True Seeing? Nah. 
> 
> Conjure Celestial (Couatl) is just busted good compared to whatever a druid subclass is offering you, as previous posts have detailed.
> Regenerate is a guaranteed, "actionless", non-concentration yo-yo heal every single turn a character goes down, at the start of their turn. They're always getting back on their feet. The limb heal is definitely more of a plot thing with current rules but hey turns out healing people's limbs can be quite valuable when you need a 7th+ level spell to do it. That's the sort of power that gets you in with royalty. Ditto for Resurrection.
> 
> "I only got 3-4 really cool and useful new spells at each new spell level  instead of 6-8!" doesn't make them dead levels.


The only dead level is level 14; the campaign where being able to destroy, instead of turning, CR 3 Undead at level 14 will be rare indeed. It's even worse than improving Brutal Crit, but at least it's just one level.

----------


## Amnestic

> The only dead level is level 14; the campaign where being able to destroy, instead of turning, CR 3 Undead at level 14 will be rare indeed. It's even worse than improving Brutal Crit, but at least it's just one level.


14th is pretty dead for most campaigns I'd agree, though clerics with Divine Strike (Death, Forge, Life, Nature, Order, Tempest, Trickery, Twilight, War - 9 of the 14 subclasses) _do_ see it improve at 14th, assuming they didn't trade it away for Blessed Strike.

Granted how often it'll actually get used is going to depend on build, but it is something for some of them.

----------


## MrStabby

> I don't actually think that your statement is true. Consider martial classes like the Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue. You can find a plethora of examples of people talking about how those three become lackluster and uninteresting to play in tiers 3 and 4. Does this mean they were uninteresting classes in tiers 1 and 2? Not at all. So what's happening here? Well...by the time you're in T3, you've been using those same abilities in likely the same manner for the last 10 levels. Most campaigns usually last about 4-6 months, with some lasting up to a year, and most campaigns only reach level 10. Which means you've been doing sort of the same thing for up to a year, with very little variation.
> 
> The issue isn't the abilities, its just the fact that you're not really doing anything _new_ with them. Clerics are in an even worse position because their subclass abilities tend to be pretty limited in scope. They can be powerful, yes. But you're limited in how you can them outside of what they were designed to do. Clerics usually get their most flexible abilities at level 1. Their level 6 ability tends to be a passive buff, which is boring, or an ability you can only use in a specific situation, like negating a crit or granting resistance to Elemental damage. Their level 8 ability is _always_ a buff to damage, be it cantrips or melee attacks. Then they get nothing else until level 17. 
> 
> By the time they reach level 17, those abilities have gotten stale. They're still just as powerful as they were when you first got them, in fact a few might be even more powerful. But, and here's the key, power does not equal interesting.
> 
> Now, you might say "Wait, the Druid's Wildshape is an ability you use from levels 2 to 20. Why aren't they considered uninteresting?" My answer to that is: You're not doing the same thing with Wildshape the entire time. Wildshape is an ability that is insanely flexible because you can change into different animals. You can use it in drastically different ways, unlike Channel Divinity. Additionally, a lot of people find Wildshape becomes uninteresting at around T3 for most Druids...which just so happens to be around the time it stops scaling for most Druids. Moon Druids are the exception because its constantly scaling every three levels, and only becomes boring by level 20. Which just so happens to be when it stops scaling. And even then, it still technically scales cause you can get new forms for it by finding new animals, letting it do new and different things. I can confidently say that if Wildshape used a static stat block that slowly improved over time, it woulds be just as uninteresting as any other ability.
> 
> 
> ...


I think there is a lot of really good stuff here, I think the one thing I might add is the question of agency.

A lot of higher level cleric spells are reliant on the DMs decision to use them rather than the player's.  Raising the dead is great, it's a sexy ability but circumstances dictate your use of it as much as your own choice.  It's not just niche, it's that the circumstances themselves are outside your control.

Spells like bless and spirit Guardians or even less good spells like cure wounds are still needing some DM input but it's a safer assumption that you will have a party or face enemies that are not immune to radiant and necrotic damage.

Temple of the gods is an awesome spell, but the circumstances needed to use it are highly DM dependant.  Word of recall - good, but borderline on the agency (campaign style may vary and in some you may decide where you need to be, in others the DM indicates where you should go next.

Other spells are bad, or just mostly uninteresting.  Heal isn't bad - but you have been healing for a long time (and as it isn't proactive it also doesn't come down to your choice about when to use it - at least to use it well).

I find that going into T3 I am using higher level spell slots for upcasting spells like spirit Guardians, Conjure celestial, and banishment as much as doing cool new things.  If in practice the new spells you get don't actually see play on a typical adventuring day it seems a bit hollow.

I want a bolt of glory or a higher level and more awesome holy weapon or just something proactive and generally applicable.  I want agency over my own spells back.

----------


## J-H

A lot of the problem is that there just aren't a lot of high level cleric spells to choose from.  Even using the optionals added from Tasha:
Cleric spells level 6: 11
7:  9
8:  4
9:  5

Total 29

9th level: 2 heals, a resurrection, Gate, and Astral Projection.  Aside from being Super Bandaid, these are all situational spells that you could go weeks without using.  It stinks to mostly use 9th level slots for upcasting.
8th level:  4/5 take Concentration.  1 blasting spell (Sunburst, the blinding super fireball, not party friendly) which is good, Holy Aura (which is decent), AMF, and the strategic spells of Control Weather and Earthquake.  You're going to pick one or maybe two of these based on your party's strategy, and ignore all the others except edge cases.
7th level:  Conjure Celestial, Firestorm (distributable damage), Divine Word (targets only low-HP enemies), and 6 spells that you really only use for travel or downtime (Etherealness, Plane Shift, Temple of the Gods, Regenerate, Resurrection, Symbol).  For day to day use you get to pick one or two from a whole 3 options.

Across the same levels 6-9, Wizards have *86* spells to choose from, one spell short of triple the number of options clerics have.  It's much easier to build 4 high level wizards who don't have the same high level spells selected than it is 4 high level clerics.

----------


## MrStabby

I think a few more high level Cleric spells would honestly help.  Above most classes clerics can afford situational spells.  Being able to switch out on a long rest and having the most spells prepared of any class (factoring domain spells) means that clerics should be able to take an occasional circumstantial/speculative spell - it just feels like a lot of them are pigeonholed into being niche or reactive rather than it being a nice extra thing to have.

----------


## stoutstien

> I think there is a lot of really good stuff here, I think the one thing I might add is the question of agency.
> 
> A lot of higher level cleric spells are reliant on the DMs decision to use them rather than the player's.  Raising the dead is great, it's a sexy ability but circumstances dictate your use of it as much as your own choice.  It's not just niche, it's that the circumstances themselves are outside your control.
> 
> Spells like bless and spirit Guardians or even less good spells like cure wounds are still needing some DM input but it's a safer assumption that you will have a party or face enemies that are not immune to radiant and necrotic damage.
> 
> Temple of the gods is an awesome spell, but the circumstances needed to use it are highly DM dependant.  Word of recall - good, but borderline on the agency (campaign style may vary and in some you may decide where you need to be, in others the DM indicates where you should go next.
> 
> Other spells are bad, or just mostly uninteresting.  Heal isn't bad - but you have been healing for a long time (and as it isn't proactive it also doesn't come down to your choice about when to use it - at least to use it well).
> ...


Honestly id rather it go the other way and model more high level spells after the cleric's. Agency is important but having a pile of "cast this and unravel the threads of the entire in world logic" gets old. High level magic should be powerful but it also should be difficult to use in some fashion.

----------


## Amnestic

> Across the same levels 6-9, Wizards have *86* spells to choose from, one spell short of triple the number of options clerics have.  It's much easier to build 4 high level wizards who don't have the same high level spells selected than it is 4 high level clerics.


Are the only options wizard or cleric though? How do bards, sorcs, warlocks, and druids stack up? Just fine. 

It's no secret that wizards have far too many the most spell choices, for whatever reason. But if the only measuring tape you have is "wizard" then surely the thread should be "everyone except wizards are lackluster after tier 2."

Which like, isn't true. 

But if people think that then they should just play wizards I guess.

----------


## MrStabby

> Are the only options wizard or cleric though? How do bards, sorcs, warlocks, and druids stack up? Just fine. 
> 
> It's no secret that wizards have far too many the most spell choices, for whatever reason. But if the only measuring tape you have is "wizard" then surely the thread should be "everyone except wizards are lackluster after tier 2."
> 
> Which like, isn't true. 
> 
> But if people think that then they should just play wizards I guess.


Bard is an interesting one and a useful experiment.

Look at what spells people take for magical secrets in tier 3 and 4 and see what proportion are from the cleric spell list.

That might give an indication of whether the spells drop off or not.

----------


## J-H

> Are the only options wizard or cleric though? How do bards, sorcs, warlocks, and druids stack up? Just fine. 
> 
> It's no secret that wizards have far too many the most spell choices, for whatever reason. But if the only measuring tape you have is "wizard" then surely the thread should be "everyone except wizards are lackluster after tier 2."
> 
> Which like, isn't true. 
> 
> But if people think that then they should just play wizards I guess.


Thanks to the handy and free 5e spells app:
Total spells in existence, levels 6-9:  122
Bard  33 + 4 magical secrets from any list = 37
Cleric 30
Druid  37
Sorcerer 49
Warlock  39
Wizard  86

Average per full caster base class:  46.3
Average discounting wizard: 38.4

Cleric is at the bottom of the list in spells to pick from, with the three next closest being Druid, Bard, and Warlock.  These all have class or subclass features that can be used more often and less situationally than the cleric's CD and DI.

I suspect that Arcana Cleric, with its +1 wizard domain spell at 6, 7, 8, and 9, feels much less lackluster at level 17+ than any of the other domains.

----------


## PhoenixPhyre

> A lot of the problem is that there just aren't a lot of high level cleric spells to choose from.  Even using the optionals added from Tasha:
> Cleric spells level 6: 11
> 7:  9
> 8:  4
> 9:  5
> 
> Total 29
> 
> 9th level: 2 heals, a resurrection, Gate, and Astral Projection.  Aside from being Super Bandaid, these are all situational spells that you could go weeks without using.  It stinks to mostly use 9th level slots for upcasting.
> ...


Yeah, wizards are outliers in many regards. That makes them outliers, not standards to be met by everyone else.

----------


## animorte

> Yeah, wizards are outliers in many regards. That makes them outliers, not standards to be met by everyone else.


This needs to be repeated for those in the back.

This is why I rarely think its valuable for Wizards to have a place in most conversations.  Also why I dont much care for them.

----------


## PhoenixPhyre

> Thanks to the handy and free 5e spells app:
> Total spells in existence, levels 6-9:  122
> Bard  33 + 4 magical secrets from any list = 37
> Cleric 30
> Druid  37
> Sorcerer 49
> Warlock  39
> Wizard  86
> 
> ...


Let's do the math.

From that population, the standard deviation is *18.9*. Remove the wizard and the standard deviation is 6.1.

Mean with the wizard is 46.3, mean _without_ the wizard is 38. Median with the wizard is 38. Median _without_ the wizard is 37.

So the cleric is:
- well within a standard deviation (less than 1/2 standard deviation) if the wizard is included. Sure, it's lower than the average, but then again _so is everyone but the sorcerer._ That's because the wizard skews things tremendously. And the difference between the median (including the wizard) and the data points is

* Bard: -1
* Cleric: -8
* Druid: -1
* Sorcerer: +12
* Warlock: +1
* Wizard: 49

Without the wizard included, the cleric is slightly more than a standard deviation below the median. Ok, so a tiny bit low. But still well within the main curve. The differences between median and data points are:
* Bard: 0
* Cleric: -7
* Druid: 0
* Sorcerer: +11
* Warlock: +2
* Wizard: N/A (excluded from sample).

If we go a step further and exclude the sorcerer as well, the standard deviation drops to 3.4 and _now_ the cleric is over 2 standard deviations outside the median. But at that point you've removed 1/3 of the data points.

So yes, the cleric is a little low on level 6-9 spells. Most of that is driven by the fact that they've gotten the very fewest spells of any class in the post-PHB materials. They got 0 from Fizban's[0]. They got 1 (in that level range) from Xanathar's: _temple of the gods_[1]. They got *0* from Tasha's[2] in that level range (not counting optional class features, where they got 3, all of which they darn well should have gotten in the PHB[3]) So in the mainline books, they've gotten *1* in that high level range. Total. And not a particularly impressive one at that.

So if you look only at the PHB, the numbers would be more like:

* Bard: 30 + 4 magical secrets
* Clerics: 29
* Druid: 28
* Sorcerer: 31
* Warlock: 24 (!)
* Wizard: 60

Much more balanced, and a completely different pattern. Now clerics are right in the middle of the pack.

[0] Bards got 0, druids got 1, sorcerers got 3 (100%), warlocks got 0, wizards got 3.
[1] Bards got 2, druids got *8*, sorcerers got 12, warlocks got 11, wizards got 19.
[2] Bards got 1, druids got 0, sorcerers got 3, warlocks got 4 (100%), wizards got 4.
[3] sunbeam, sunburst, power word heal

----------


## diplomancer

> Divine Word (targets only low-HP enemies),


Take a closer look. That spell is bonkers good. It targets all celestials, elementals, Fey or fiends, regardless of their hit Points. And it's a mass effect. And it's a bonus action.

----------


## Witty Username

> Bard is an interesting one and a useful experiment.
> 
> Look at what spells people take for magical secrets in tier 3 and 4 and see what proportion are from the cleric spell list.
> 
> That might give an indication of whether the spells drop off or not.


Over half of the magical secrets I've seen taken were off the paladin exclusive list, I think it is just a sign of how it messes with class balance in game unhealthy ways.

----------


## PhoenixPhyre

> Over half of the magical secrets I've seen taken were off the paladin exclusive list, I think it is just a sign of how it messes with class balance in game unhealthy ways.


Exactly. It'd actually be a lot healthier if it excluded the half-caster lists entirely. Let them have their exclusives, which they get at lower spell levels to compensate for getting those at the normal class levels.

----------


## sithlordnergal

> That is an interesting perspective.
> One of the issues with using _that_ single formula to determine the price for spellcasting services, is this formula is _not_ applying economic principles.
> 
> The formula above, assumes all spellcasting services are wanted equally, and can be provided equally, which is, (Im afraid), a poor simulation.
> 
> What is more valuable, someone casting Daylight for you or someone casting Raise Dead on you?  
> 
> Every living creature, _theoretically_, has some potential _want_ for the Raise Dead spell.  This is a supply and demand issue.  How much capacity a society has for Raising the Dead, and how much appetite this society has for being Raised from the Dead is going to determine the price.
> 
> One is _lucky_ if one _only_ has to pay gold for a Raise Dead service.  In games were there is a severe scarcity of providers of Raise Dead, the cost for services can be well beyond treasures and trinkets.


I've yet to find a DM that has bothered to try and add economic principals into their games, be it for magical services or mundane items. The only exception is when you enter very specific places, like a country that has nothing but mages and their biggest export is magic. Additionally, I'd say Daylight is more valuable to your average adventuring party, as Raise Dead is really only useful for bringing a party member back. And even then...does the party _want_ to spend the gold to bring back a party member who died? Or just let the player bring in a new character? Cause in DnD, death doesn't actually matter that much. Even if you aren't able to bring the character back, chances are you won't be banished from the table if your character dies. You'll just be given a new sheet and be told make a new character.

Now, if finding people that can bring back the dead is really hard to do, then it becomes an interesting sidequest. But Raise Dead itself does nothing to make the sidequest more or less interesting, unless your DM has made a ton of changes to raising the dead and turned it into a large and involved ritual. But by then we're not really talking about the Raise Dead spell.





> Yeah, wizards are outliers in many regards. That makes them outliers, not standards to be met by everyone else.


Yeah, Wizards are very much the outlier when it comes to the number of spells they get to choose from. Which is why I said above that Wizards are the only class you could strip all their T3 abilities from and they'd still be just as interesting to play as before. Which can be good or bad depending on who you're talking to.

As for Clerics...Well, Phoenix's later post shows that Clerics are a full standard deviation below the median when it comes to having higher level spells, unless you remove the Wizard and only use the PHB. But the class itself tries to coast along through all of T3 with just those spells alone. If they wanted to do that, they'd need to be slightly above the median, or have such game breakingly powerful spells that it wouldn't matter. They don't have either. Hence why they become lackluster in T3.






> Take a closer look. That spell is bonkers good. It targets all celestials, elementals, Fey or fiends, regardless of their hit Points. And it's a mass effect. And it's a bonus action.


That's a pretty limited amount of creatures you can use it on for being a "bonkers" spell. You can only target 4 types of creature with it, and its a 24 hour Banish. Additionally, its useless if you happen to be on the creature's native plane, since all it does is banish the creature back to their native plane.

----------


## diplomancer

> That's a pretty limited amount of creatures you can use it on for being a "bonkers" spell. You can only target 4 types of creature with it, and its a 24 hour Banish. Additionally, its useless if you happen to be on the creature's native plane, since all it does is banish the creature back to their native plane.


But creatures that are quite common at that level. And which are thematic enough that you can usually tell in advance you're going to face. Which is great for Clerics, as they can prepare it when they expect it will be useful.

----------


## MrStabby

> Over half of the magical secrets I've seen taken were off the paladin exclusive list, I think it is just a sign of how it messes with class balance in game unhealthy ways.


But its also an indication, not so much about half casters, as the paladin in particular that got all the love - prepared spells, fantastic class abilities, loads of resources and all the best low level spells.




> But creatures that are quite common at that level. And which are thematic enough that you can usually tell in advance you're going to face. Which is great for Clerics, as they can prepare it when they expect it will be useful.


I would caution against expecting too much from this spell. You are looking at a seventh level spell and by the time you have access to this a lot of enemies are going to be outside the HP range.  Furthermore a lot of celestial fiends and fey have good charisma saves and magic resistance and a number also have legendary resistance.  

The bonus action bit is nice, but unless you have awesome channel divinity it basically let's you cast a cantrip with your action - less of a big deal at that level.

----------


## 5eNeedsDarksun

> But its also an indication, not so much about half casters, as the paladin in particular that got all the love - prepared spells, fantastic class abilities, loads of resources and all the best low level spells.
> 
> 
> 
> I would caution against expecting too much from this spell. You are looking at a seventh level spell and by the time you have access to this a lot of enemies are going to be outside the HP range.  Furthermore a lot of celestial fiends and fey have good charisma saves and magic resistance and a number also have legendary resistance.  
> 
> The bonus action bit is nice, but unless you have awesome channel divinity it basically let's you cast a cantrip with your action - less of a big deal at that level.


I got a lot of mileage out of this spell in the later parts of Out of the Abyss, due to an abundance of Demons.  On the good saves + magic resistance I get the point, but the same is going to be true of almost all spells that require saving throws.  With this spell at least you have 1) a huge area + 2) no friendly fire + 3) no limit of foes.  Also, the added bonus is that 4) everything that fails is just permanently gone.  Those 4 things mean when you're fighting groups of the right types of creatures this is a very good spell.
Edit: I'm adding a #5: Divine Word isn't concentration.  You're getting a similar effect to Banishment, but concentration free and effectively permanent.

I do think being a BA is significant since the 30 range means you're likely going to try to get into the middle of a big pile of enemies to get max value out of this spell, so Dodging is a likely Action, as is (as you say) Channel Divinity if you have a good one.

----------


## Amnestic

> Let's do the math.


Given this, I can certainly see the argument for adding Domain spells at 6th-9th for Clerics to help bring them up slightly.

I don't think it's _necessary_ by any stretch - I maintain that clerics still slap hard at any level of the game - but if one is desperately concerned about their spell options in tier 3/4 then that's how I'd solve it.

Or just delete wizard

----------


## MrStabby

> I got a lot of mileage out of this spell in the later parts of Out of the Abyss, due to an abundance of Demons.  On the good saves + magic resistance I get the point, but the same is going to be true of almost all spells that require saving throws.  With this spell at least you have 1) a huge area + 2) no friendly fire + 3) no limit of foes.  Also, the added bonus is that 4) everything that fails is just permanently gone.  Those 4 things mean when you're fighting groups of the right types of creatures this is a very good spell.
> Edit: I'm adding a #5: Divine Word isn't concentration.  You're getting a similar effect to Banishment, but concentration free and effectively permanent.
> 
> I do think being a BA is significant since the 30 range means you're likely going to try to get into the middle of a big pile of enemies to get max value out of this spell, so Dodging is a likely Action, as is (as you say) Channel Divinity if you have a good one.


I found it... a bit lacklustre really. Some things got banished, but they were always the things that were never really a threat to the party anyway.  I agree it's like almost all save or suck spells in that it's a bad (ish) plan for a high level spell.

I do take your point about both concentration and the bonus action though.  The cynic in me thinks that now you can both dash and achieve nothing and achieve nothing whilst concentrating, but it isn't nothing, just little for a spe of this level.

----------


## sithlordnergal

> Given this, I can certainly see the argument for adding Domain spells at 6th-9th for Clerics to help bring them up slightly.
> 
> I don't think it's _necessary_ by any stretch - I maintain that clerics still slap hard at any level of the game - but if one is desperately concerned about their spell options in tier 3/4 then that's how I'd solve it.
> 
> Or just delete wizard


I feel like there are two ways to improve the Cleric:

1) Just give them a good subclass feature at level 14 like everyone else, and maybe change their 8th level feature to be something interesting instead of bonus damage to their melee attack or cantrips. Like...adding 1d8 and 2d8 to your melee attack would be great...if it did it more than once and you had more than one melee attack. Adding your Wisdom modifier to your cantrip damage would also be great...if Clerics had more than three damaging cantrips, and at least one of them wasn't a save. Every single Cleric gets one or the other at level 8. Its not interesting, and its not all that helpful. I don't know many Clerics that use their Melee Attacks or Cantrips for their main source of damage, and its not like Clerics have an insane cantrip like Eldritch Blast either.


2) Change up their base high level spell list a bit. Not even adding in Domain spells, just their normal spell list that every Cleric gets. Look at their 6th level spell list. They have 12 spells in total, 5 of them are not very good, either due to being too niche, too expensive, or just being bad spells. You could instantly improve that list by adding a few thematic spells. Such as:

Bones of the Earth: Basically a non-Concentration, mini-Wall of Stone, with the chance to hurt a creature if you cast it in the right spotWind Walk: Used to be a Cleric spell, but not anymore. Why not? It'd give them a better travel spell.Summon Fiend: Why is this not on their list already? You telling me there are no Clerics that would cast fiendish magic or worship Fiends?Soul Cage: Again...Do Clerics just not use evil types of magic? This is soul based magic, something a Cleric should have experience withTenser's Transformation: Or make a Cleric version. We literally have a ton of Cleric subclasses that give buffs to melee fighting.Magic Jar: More soul based magic, how do they not have thisGlobe of Invulnerability: Its basically lesser-Anti Magic Field.

Those are just 6th level spells. I'm sure I could do 7th, 8th, and 9th too. They used to have Animate Objects, Storm of Vengeance, and their own version of Wish called Miracle. Why not give them those spells back. Also, toss in Destructive Wrath from the Paladin. The Paladin has plenty of goodies already, it can share a spell with the Cleric.

----------


## MrStabby

> I feel like there are two ways to improve the Cleric:
> 
> 1) Just give them a good subclass feature at level 14 like everyone else, and maybe change their 8th level feature to be something interesting instead of bonus damage to their melee attack or cantrips. Like...adding 1d8 and 2d8 to your melee attack would be great...if it did it more than once and you had more than one melee attack. Adding your Wisdom modifier to your cantrip damage would also be great...if Clerics had more than three damaging cantrips, and at least one of them wasn't a save. Every single Cleric gets one or the other at level 8. Its not interesting, and its not all that helpful. I don't know many Clerics that use their Melee Attacks or Cantrips for their main source of damage, and its not like Clerics have an insane cantrip like Eldritch Blast either.
> 
> 
> 2) Change up their base high level spell list a bit. Not even adding in Domain spells, just their normal spell list that every Cleric gets. Look at their 6th level spell list. They have 12 spells in total, 5 of them are not very good, either due to being too niche, too expensive, or just being bad spells. You could instantly improve that list by adding a few thematic spells. Such as:
> 
> Bones of the Earth: Basically a non-Concentration, mini-Wall of Stone, with the chance to hurt a creature if you cast it in the right spotWind Walk: Used to be a Cleric spell, but not anymore. Why not? It'd give them a better travel spell.Summon Fiend: Why is this not on their list already? You telling me there are no Clerics that would cast fiendish magic or worship Fiends?Soul Cage: Again...Do Clerics just not use evil types of magic? This is soul based magic, something a Cleric should have experience withTenser's Transformation: Or make a Cleric version. We literally have a ton of Cleric subclasses that give buffs to melee fighting.Magic Jar: More soul based magic, how do they not have thisGlobe of Invulnerability: Its basically lesser-Anti Magic Field.
> 
> Those are just 6th level spells. I'm sure I could do 7th, 8th, and 9th too. They used to have Animate Objects, Storm of Vengeance, and their own version of Wish called Miracle. Why not give them those spells back. Also, toss in Destructive Wrath from the Paladin. The Paladin has plenty of goodies already, it can share a spell with the Cleric.


Whilst I broadly agree with a lot of this my solution, at a first pass would be different.

Change the domain spells.  One per spell level rather than two, but one for every spell level.  This would slightly reduce the power level of the cleric where it is over-strong but give it a bit more to enjoy in the bland levels.

Of course  there may need to be other appropriate spells available to support this, but as a skeleton of a principle I think it's... well, not great but at least a start.

----------


## Amnestic

> I feel like there are two ways to improve the Cleric:


I don't feel too strongly one way or the other re: their 8th level features. Bit boring, but does cleric need a 'better' feature in t2? Not really. I can take/leave any changes to this. It is a bit ribbon-y, I suppose, but their spells make up for it. It'd be nice if their 8th features were more unique though, I suppose.

I do disagree on the 2nd point out of preference - I'd much rather see subclass specific stuff than general spell list expansion, since general expansion is how you end up with the wizard who can do everything (zzz) or diluting the spell lists so they're not (as) unique anymore. Spell lists are a class feature, and in my eyes should be generally unique, with subclass specific stuff letting you dip and borrow where thematically appropriate.

----------


## diplomancer

8th level is for ASIs. I believe only Clerics and Druids get anything apart from ASIs, so, even though they're  not particularly powerful features (Improvement to Wildshape for Druid, Divine Strike/Potent Cantrips for Clerics), I don't think there is any room for complaint here.

The Cleric one, in particular, feels like a "math correction", something to bring Cleric baseline damage more in line with other classes. The only one that gets really excited about it is the Arcana Cleric, who gets to double-dip on the extra damage.

----------


## MrStabby

> 8th level is for ASIs. I believe only Clerics and Druids get anything apart from ASIs, so, even though they're  not particularly powerful features (Improvement to Wildshape for Druid, Divine Strike/Potent Cantrips for Clerics), I don't think there is any room for complaint here.
> 
> The Cleric one, in particular, feels like a "math correction", something to bring Cleric baseline damage more in line with other classes. The only one that gets really excited about it is the Arcana Cleric, who gets to double-dip on the extra damage.


Is this is response to something in this thread? Trying to trace back what it references...

----------


## Frogreaver

Can someone name 1 or 2 spells per spell levels 6, 7 and 8 spells that Wizards get that are good, not boring and the kind of effect most likely replicable by a lower-level spell.

Like what are you guys taking here that the same critiques of cleric high level spells cannot be applied?

An example: Level 8 a Wizard can take Feeblemind, but there's a ton of save or suck spells that are going to function nearly as well, if not better than Feeblemind in many situations.  From one perspective it's just a slightly different way of doing the same crap you've always done.  In that perspective it's a bit lackluster.  But when viewed as another tool in your toolbox, suddenly it's new and interesting because it's feeling in some gaps.

A similar cleric example:  The heal spell at level 6.  You already could heal and pop allies back up in battle with healing word, but Heal fills in a gap you lacked before.

----------


## PhoenixPhyre

> Can someone name 1 or 2 spells per spell levels 6, 7 and 8 spells that Wizards get that are good, not boring and the kind of effect most likely replicable by a lower-level spell.
> 
> Like what are you guys taking here that the same critiques of cleric high level spells cannot be applied?
> 
> An example: Level 8 a Wizard can take Feeblemind, but there's a ton of save or suck spells that are going to function nearly as well, if not better than Feeblemind in many situations.  From one perspective it's just a slightly different way of doing the same crap you've always done.  In that perspective it's a bit lackluster.  But when viewed as another tool in your toolbox, suddenly it's new and interesting because it's feeling in some gaps.
> 
> A similar cleric example:  The heal spell at level 6.  You already could heal and pop allies back up in battle with healing word, but Heal fills in a gap you lacked before.


I agree there are fewer "standouts" than expected. High level spells, for the most part, _just aren't that much different than low-level ones._ With some exceptions that are strong outliers. All of which outliers are, conveniently, on the wizard list.

----------


## MrStabby

> I do disagree on the 2nd point out of preference - I'd much rather see subclass specific stuff than general spell list expansion, since general expansion is how you end up with the wizard who can do everything (zzz) or diluting the spell lists so they're not (as) unique anymore. Spell lists are a class feature, and in my eyes should be generally unique, with subclass specific stuff letting you dip and borrow where thematically appropriate.


I strongly agree that this is something to be avoided - the worry that these things will bleed together is very real.  I think that it's a complicated balance to get right between having a fun and diverse range of abilities to use, whilst still keeping options distinct.  This is why I would be keen to extend the domain spells to higher levels - I think putting more of the options onto domains would be a good move.

Personally I liked the old 3rd edition style of choosing two domains.  Were I to be designing an edition I would probably lean towards two domains but each being more narrowly focused.

----------


## animorte

> Personally I liked the old 3rd edition style of choosing two domains.  Were I to be designing an edition I would probably lean towards two domains but each being more narrowly focused.


I also really liked this. Its what inspired me to make a build your own subclass that allows you to mix and match between pre-existing subclass features.

_I really need to finish that._

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## diplomancer

> Is this is response to something in this thread? Trying to trace back what it references...


To the two recent posta criticizing the 8th level feature. As I see it, to get any feature at all in level 8 is a bonus.

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## sithlordnergal

> To the two recent posta criticizing the 8th level feature. As I see it, to get any feature at all in level 8 is a bonus.


Its really not much of a bonus though. If you look at the classes, they usually get their subclass features at level 6 or 7, and then level 10. Cleric gets their subclass features at level 6 and 8. They basically shifted the level 10 subclass feature down to level 8, then made it really unimpressive.


Which...yeah, that's not great. They get their second to last subclass feature at level 8, and don't gain another one for nine levels.

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## MrStabby

> To the two recent posta criticizing the 8th level feature. As I see it, to get any feature at all in level 8 is a bonus.


Yeah, first time I loaded this the posts it referenced didn't show up.  It led to a degree of confusion.  Sorry.




> Its really not much of a bonus though. If you look at the classes, they usually get their subclass features at level 6 or 7, and then level 10. Cleric gets their subclass features at level 6 and 8. They basically shifted the level 10 subclass feature down to level 8, then made it really unimpressive.
> 
> 
> Which...yeah, that's not great. They get their second to last subclass feature at level 8, and don't gain another one for nine levels.


Well every odd level gets you two domain spells, which is a subclass feature.  The fact that they are listed under level 1 doesn't mean you don't get them on levels 3, 5, 7 and 9 as well.

These levels individually are not huge subclass features but they are a lot of them.

On the other hand this also really highlights how the experience changes as you go to higher levels.  The sudden curtailment of new spells and the degree to which every cleric addition after level 9 is so functionally similar to every other cleric over this same interval is just a bit sad.

----------


## diplomancer

> Its really not much of a bonus though. If you look at the classes, they usually get their subclass features at level 6 or 7, and then level 10. Cleric gets their subclass features at level 6 and 8. They basically shifted the level 10 subclass feature down to level 8, then made it really unimpressive.
> 
> 
> Which...yeah, that's not great. They get their second to last subclass feature at level 8, and don't gain another one for nine levels.


I agree that Clerics go way too long without subclass features. I'd prefer it if they got their  subclass capstone at 14, like the bards. Level 17 is a 9th level spell, you don't really need anything else. 

Each feature would have to be evaluated and balanced, though. Arcana Cleric, for instance, could get a 6th and a 7th level Wizard spell at level 14, and an 8th and a 9th at level 17.

----------


## 5eNeedsDarksun

> I found it... a bit lacklustre really. Some things got banished, but they were always the things that were never really a threat to the party anyway.  I agree it's like almost all save or suck spells in that it's a bad (ish) plan for a high level spell.
> 
> I do take your point about both concentration and the bonus action though.  The cynic in me thinks that now you can both dash and achieve nothing and achieve nothing whilst concentrating, but it isn't nothing, just little for a spe of this level.


A 13th level cleric with max Wis would likely eliminate 2 of 5 bone devils without assistance from the rest of the group.  If there are lower level mooks hanging around they're more likely to be going, maybe close to automatically.  But if a group isn't encountering affected creatures in those sort of numbers it becomes an iffy spell.  As I mentioned upthread, by experience was in OotA, so large numbers of Fiends was the norm.

----------


## Witty Username

> I agree there are fewer "standouts" than expected. High level spells, for the most part, _just aren't that much different than low-level ones._ With some exceptions that are strong outliers. All of which outliers are, conveniently, on the wizard list.


Well: Wizard, Bard, Druid, Sorcerer and Warlock. Their are alot of 'outliers' to go around.

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## PhoenixPhyre

> Well: Wizard, Bard, Druid, Sorcerer and Warlock. Their are alot of 'outliers' to go around.


Not really. Number of spells? Wizard stands head and shoulders. Bard only has any broken spells _because they steal them from wizards_. Druids don't really have any super-standouts. Sorcerer only has those that they share with wizards, and wizards have even more that sorcerers don't. Warlocks don't really have many outlier spells.

Wizards basically steal everyone else's "cool thing" or have a better version. And have more exclusives than anyone else. And have more spells of every level than anyone else, often _more than two or three other classes combined._ If there's a broken spell? It's on the wizard list or a wizard exclusive. Etc.

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## Witty Username

In the phb there are 9 exclusive wizard spells between 6th and 8th level:
Contingency
Drawmij's instant summons
Magic Jar
Otiluke's freezing sphere
Wall of Ice
Sequester
Simulacrum
Clone
Maze
Of them, the only outlier in the way you describe would be simulacrum. So either, your entire argument is simulacrum, or there are other spells that are outliers not listed here.

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## Schwann145

> In the phb there are 9 exclusive wizard spells between 6th and 8th level:
> Contingency
> Drawmij's instant summons
> Magic Jar
> Otiluke's freezing sphere
> Wall of Ice
> Sequester
> Simulacrum
> Clone
> ...


A lot of people would include Contingency, Magic Jar, and Clone as outliers as well.

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## Witty Username

> A lot of people would include Contingency, Magic Jar, and Clone as outliers as well.


Contingency isn't all that weird, it is essentially a glyph of warding that can move, and the you target requirement limits alot of what it can do, it is mostly an evac button.

Clone is the wizard equivalent of resurrection, much like how druid has reincarnate. Revivify and Raise Dead have been doing that for a while now. And all these spells have advantages and limitations  the others don't have.

I will give some ground on magic jar, I personally don't find it much different from Dominate person in actual play, but I will give it can be much more potent if given the opportunity (or kill yourself by accident, so its not like it doesn't come with complications).
Also, for example, if we are including things like Magic Jar as outliers, wouldnt we have to include things like Forcecage, which is a gamechanging spell in terms of what it allows but is also on the Bard and Warlock list?

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## Frogreaver

Isnt forcecage just an upgraded wall of force?  Is it really doing anything significantly different. Much like how heal is just an upgraded cure wounds?

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## PhoenixPhyre

> Contingency isn't all that weird, it is essentially a glyph of warding that can move, and the you target requirement limits alot of what it can do, it is mostly an evac button.
> 
> Clone is the wizard equivalent of resurrection, much like how druid has reincarnate. Revivify and Raise Dead have been doing that for a while now. And all these spells have advantages and limitations  the others don't have.
> 
> I will give some ground on magic jar, I personally don't find it much different from Dominate person in actual play, but I will give it can be much more potent if given the opportunity (or kill yourself by accident, so its not like it doesn't come with complications).
> Also, for example, if we are including things like Magic Jar as outliers, wouldnt we have to include things like Forcecage, which is a gamechanging spell in terms of what it allows but is also on the Bard and Warlock list?


Note I specifically said that the wizard had _all_ the outlier spells, not that the wizard was the _only_ one to have outlier spells. If spell is outlier, wizard has it. Bards, etc, have one or two of the outliers. Wizards have most, if not all of them. That's the difference.

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## stoutstien

> Isnt forcecage just an upgraded wall of force?  Is it really doing anything significantly different. Much like how heal is just an upgraded cure wounds?


The lack of concentration/duration is a a large jump in it's relative impact compared to wall of force.

It also lacks the clause where disintegrate can blow a hole in it and has a save attached even if you have means to teleport out of it. Disintegrate should absolutely still work but it's strange they left it off. I can't even understand why they made wall/cube of force immune to dispel.

----------


## Frogreaver

> The lack of concentration/duration is a a large jump in it's relative impact compared to wall of force


Sure but its still basically the same kind of effect. 

Much like heal has larger ranger and heals more than cure wounds. 

People complained about heal being lackluster for this very reason. It just isnt interesting enough for them. So Im trying to grasp how forcecage is this great new shiny interesting toy using the same logic? 

Is it simply more a matter of forceccage being powerful where heal isnt nearly so. Does powerfuless = interestingness?  Does lack of power = lackluster?  Is that really all this thread is saying?

----------


## stoutstien

> Sure but its still basically the same kind of effect. 
> 
> Much like heal has larger ranger and heals more than cure wounds. 
> 
> People complained about heal being lackluster for this very reason. It just isnt interesting enough for them. So Im trying to grasp how forcecage is this great new shiny interesting toy using the same logic? 
> 
> Is it simply more a matter of forceccage being powerful where heal isnt nearly so. Does powerfuless = interestingness?  Does lack of power = lackluster?  Is that really all this thread is saying?


I can't speak for most though I find almost all spells over lv 5ish to be uninteresting because they are either "the same things but bigger" or "explicitly breaks world/game logic because magic but in a very boring way"

----------


## PhoenixPhyre

> I can't speak for most though I find almost all spells over lv 5ish to be uninteresting because they are either "the same things but bigger" or "explicitly breaks world/game logic because magic but in a very boring way"


This I agree with wholeheartedly. Personally, I don't see the "casters are god-like beings" concept. Or the "6+ level spells are civilization-shaping in a new way" concept. Sure, they've got some stand-out spells, but mostly they're stand-out _because they're poorly written and exploitable_. Not because they're new, interesting, or anything. They're just hunks of raw boring power.

To be even more honest, I don't see anything interesting _even about the lower level spells._ The whole "casters are interesting, martials aren't" thing just has never jibed with me. For me, casters are inherently boring because their features are all a button that does <thing> (in which case it's a solved problem, just push button and win). Sure, you've got a lot of choices...and most of them are entirely illusory. Casters end up doing the same things over and over just like martials, just from a slightly larger set of different-colored things. The only "mastery" required or "creativity" is "read the spell list, push the right button." At most you have "sweet-talk/rules-lawyer the DM to let you get away with shenanigans", but anyone can do that independent of their character sheet.

----------


## stoutstien

> This I agree with wholeheartedly. Personally, I don't see the "casters are god-like beings" concept. Or the "6+ level spells are civilization-shaping in a new way" concept. Sure, they've got some stand-out spells, but mostly they're stand-out _because they're poorly written and exploitable_. Not because they're new, interesting, or anything. They're just hunks of raw boring power.
> 
> To be even more honest, I don't see anything interesting _even about the lower level spells._ The whole "casters are interesting, martials aren't" thing just has never jibed with me. For me, casters are inherently boring because their features are all a button that does <thing> (in which case it's a solved problem, just push button and win). Sure, you've got a lot of choices...and most of them are entirely illusory. Casters end up doing the same things over and over just like martials, just from a slightly larger set of different-colored things. The only "mastery" required or "creativity" is "read the spell list, push the right button." At most you have "sweet-talk/rules-lawyer the DM to let you get away with shenanigans", but anyone can do that independent of their character sheet.


There are some interesting lower level spells but are all almost exclusively rituals or shouldn't be spells to begain with.

Personally this is why when(if) I actually play a PC they end up as 1/2 casters at the most( due to actual class features past spells) or something like a fighter with ritual caster.

----------


## PhoenixPhyre

> There are some interesting lower level spells but are all almost exclusively rituals or shouldn't be spells to begain with.
> 
> Personally this is why when(if) I actually play a PC they end up as 1/2 casters at the most( due to actual class features past spells) or something like a fighter with ritual caster.


Agreed. I've long been in favor of moving all the interesting effects to open access ritual-things. Or class features if they need to be class specific. Let spells be just another way of doing combat effects. Not anything special.

----------


## stoutstien

> Agreed. I've long been in favor of moving all the interesting effects to open access ritual-things. Or class features if they need to be class specific. Let spells be just another way of doing combat effects. Not anything special.


Im moving along a similar vein but with spells being just more "generic" and flexible by application rather than explicit rule interactions. It takes more adjudication on the DMs part but it's also not as open to exploit because it doesn't have a dozen 'if/and/but' to filer through. 
This along side that facts that the base class makes up the smallest portion of the spells known budget(spells themselves taking up significantly less overall) and each class has a unique casting style hopefully it will go a long way to address this issue I've had with TTRPGs and magic as a whole.

----------


## PhoenixPhyre

> Im moving along a similar vein but with spells being just more "generic" and flexible by application rather than explicit rule interactions. It takes more adjudication on the DMs part but it's also not as open to exploit because it doesn't have a dozen 'if/and/but' to filer through. 
> This along side that facts that the base class makes up the smallest portion of the spells known budget(spells themselves taking up significantly less overall) and each class has a unique casting style hopefully it will go a long way to address this issue I've had with TTRPGs and magic as a whole.


For various and sundry reasons that all boil down to laziness on my part, I'm loathe to make _fundamental_ changes to the underlying system. Which works really well IMO. It's just some of the content that I don't like. If I were going to fundamentally change spell-casting as a whole (as opposed to just shuffling around what spells exist), I'd need to make cascading changes almost everywhere else. And I ain't got time or energy for that.

----------


## stoutstien

> For various and sundry reasons that all boil down to laziness on my part, I'm loathe to make _fundamental_ changes to the underlying system. Which works really well IMO. It's just some of the content that I don't like. If I were going to fundamentally change spell-casting as a whole (as opposed to just shuffling around what spells exist), I'd need to make cascading changes almost everywhere else. And I ain't got time or energy for that.


Lol. I get that. It's a pet project so nothing I'm addressing directly unless i need a distraction.

----------


## Rav

I think the TLDR I get from this thread is: "Wizard > Cleric, so cleric sucks"

But like, No.

----------


## animorte

> I think the TLDR I get from this thread is: "Wizard > Cleric, so cleric sucks"
> 
> But like, No.


Thats certainly what it turned into.

Clearly, more accurately: Clerics dont get additional features in-and-around all of T3 except spells, which dont really stand above the competition. So even if they are fun and effective up until then, they mostly just _maintain_ that status instead of improving it.

----------


## PhoenixPhyre

> I think the TLDR I get from this thread is: "Wizard > Cleric, so cleric sucks"
> 
> But like, No.


As can probably be guessed, my conclusion is more or less the opposite from the same start: it's wizards who scale too fast. Clerics are just about right. Fast early on, slower later. Mostly filling out, not constantly reinventing themselves. Honestly, one more subclass feature at higher levels would be great. That's about it.

----------


## MrStabby

> I think the TLDR I get from this thread is: "Wizard > Cleric, so cleric sucks"
> 
> But like, No.


Really?  I totally missed the place where a lot of people were saying cleric sucks.

Personally I think that the issue is cleric is too front loaded and gets its abilities appropriate for lower level, not higher level play.

I do think there has been a strong element of 'cleric advancement is relatively uninteresting after level 10', which has had broad agreement.  This isn't a wizard specific thing, as far as I can tell, just that the wizard is an egregious outlier (and even then, not in terms of class or subclass abilities but just in spells).  I think there is a case the wizard is a particularly poor example in one sense in that each other class has meaningful subclass abilities in this range.

I think there is another related issue which gers touched on - the cleric domains end up feeling very... similar. More time gets spent casting higher level spells and therefore not domain spells at higher levels. Some of the best scaling spells are not domain spells - not maintaining the differentiation kind of sucks (though I would also put wizard in the same boat here).

Quality of cleric spells has also been discussed.  Whilst I think 'consesnsus' might be too strong a word a kind of 'median view' might be that the spells are OK but unexciting and generally just do what the cleric did at lower levels but bigger.  Summon bigger celestial, heal more... Reading between the lines of some comments I would infer a view that quality of spell a class has is really determined not by average quality of spells available but by the best (the quality of spells unused is irrelevant) and a lot of OK spells are no match for a couple of OP spells.  Some commentary that wizard gets a lot of these, though I think that this also skips over the ability of bards and sorcerers to pick up spells like wish or even warlocks to get spells like forcecage.

The combination of lack of progression of class abilities coupled with similar feelings from spells does undermine the class.

I think this might be a better (if longer) TLDR.

Two personal additions or disagreements.

1. Antimagic field is awesome.  It is a bit niche, but.it feels like a genuine high level spell and something something unavailable at low levels.

2. The lower levels self selects for peoe who like what low level clerics deliver.  Low level clerics provide a really strong thematic package, lots of ways that a character will evolve and meaningfully develop over the first 10 levels.  Your typical cleric player is therefore someone who disproportionately values these things.

----------


## Thunderous Mojo

> I think there is another related issue which gers touched on - the cleric domains end up feeling very... similar. More time gets spent casting higher level spells and therefore not domain spells at higher levels. Some of the best scaling spells are not domain spells


This sentiment is wrong and misguided.




> 2. The lower levels self selects for peoe who like what low level clerics deliver.  Low level clerics provide a really strong thematic package, lots of ways that a character will evolve and meaningfully develop over the first 10 levels.  Your typical cleric player is therefore someone who disproportionately values these things.


Just pointing out again, the sentiment in the first quote is wrong and misguided.

----------


## MrStabby

> This sentiment is wrong and misguided.
> 
> 
> 
> Just pointing out again, the sentiment in the first quote is wrong and misguided.


Well with such in depth and intellectually sound reasoning as you provided here, it obviously hard to disagree.

----------


## Witty Username

> Note I specifically said that the wizard had _all_ the outlier spells, not that the wizard was the _only_ one to have outlier spells. If spell is outlier, wizard has it. Bards, etc, have one or two of the outliers. Wizards have most, if not all of them. That's the difference.


Ah, I misunderstood. I would give some credit to spells like earthquake and tsunami in that direction, Tsunami being a druid exclusive.
--

The martial-caster disparity is an illusion, brought on martials being front loaded to the point of parody. If martials got abilities past 5th level worth anything, this wouldn't be talked about nearly as much.

----------


## Frogreaver

> Well with such in depth and intellectually sound reasoning as you provided here, it obviously hard to disagree.


Every different domain cleric Ive played is quite different.

Examples - 

My light cleric typically used fireball over spirit guardians. He was very blasty where most clerics are not. 

My life cleric played primarily by casting bless and using higher level slots for healing. 

One can play them all as spirit guardians boats with some pop up healing and spiritual weapon. One doesnt have to do so.

----------


## Thunderous Mojo

> Well with such in depth and intellectually sound reasoning as you provided here, it obviously hard to disagree.


LoL, it has been gone over in the thread.and elsewhere.
To be frank, much of the criticism of T3 Clerics seems to be levied by persons that often strike me as not having much higher Tier experience.

Certain things have also changed within the D&D power set, from edition to edition.

If the 5e Cleric had a 9th level Miracle spell, that essentially was a clerical version of the Wish spell, I suspect that much of the reputed dissatisfaction would evaporate.

As, it is, I have read arguments that state  that high level Divine Inspiration is _essentially_ a Second, Ninth level spell slot, for 5e clerics.

Blade Barrier was an awesome spell in AD&D, when there was no Dexterity Saving Throw, no 2nd level spell slot Teleport option such as Misty Step, and races and classes did not give out Teleport options.

Corresponding, Blade Barrier is viewed in less favorable terms, in 5e.
Many people did not play 4e, but compared to 4e clerics, 5E cleric options are comparatively diverse.

5e clerics are the closest to 2e Specialty Priests in feel, in my opinion.

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## MrStabby

> Every different domain cleric Ive played is quite different.
> 
> Examples - 
> 
> My light cleric typically used fireball over spirit guardians. He was very blasty where most clerics are not. 
> 
> My life cleric played primarily by casting bless and using higher level slots for healing. 
> 
> One can play them all as spirit guardians boats with some pop up healing and spiritual weapon. One doesnt have to do so.


I am not saying clerics are not different from each other.  Quite the opposite in fact - they start very, very different in T1 and T2 but that they converge at higher levels.  For example you compare the different playstyles of level 5 clerics through their choice of 3rd level spells.  Sure, you might not stop casting these and they will remain significant but these differences will become less important as the flashier and significant things the characters do are not 3rd level spells but 6th, 7th and 8th level spells.  This matters because there will be cleric players that select their class because of this differentiation and therefore feel its lack from levels 10 to 16 particularly keenly.

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## Frogreaver

> I am not saying clerics are not different from each other.  Quite the opposite in fact - they start very, very different in T1 and T2 but that they converge at higher levels.  For example you compare the different playstyles of level 5 clerics through their choice of 3rd level spells.  Sure, you might not stop casting these and they will remain significant but these differences will become less important as the flashier and significant things the characters do are not 3rd level spells but 6th, 7th and 8th level spells.  This matters because there will be cleric players that select their class because of this differentiation and therefore feel its lack from levels 10 to 16 particularly keenly.


That doesn't compute to me.  A level 16 cleric (top end of T3) only has 1 level 6, 1 level 7 and 1 level 8 spell slot.  Everything else he is doing is going to be from tier 2 stuff.  

Even if 2 clerics took exactly the same level 6, 7 and 8 spells - most of what they do during the day is going to be unique to the subclass - provided the player wants it to be so.

Speaking of - don't Wizards usually all take mostly similar high level spells as well?

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## Witty Username

> That doesn't compute to me.  A level 16 cleric (top end of T3) only has 1 level 6, 1 level 7 and 1 level 8 spell slot.  Everything else he is doing is going to be from tier 2 stuff.  
> 
> Even if 2 clerics took exactly the same level 6, 7 and 8 spells - most of what they do during the day is going to be unique to the subclass - provided the player wants it to be so.
> 
> Speaking of - don't Wizards usually all take mostly similar high level spells as well?


Converging at the high levels is more or less the same for all casting classes. But specifically for clerics,
There are two factors here,
-spell relevance
-spell selection (which has been already covered 

As level increases the 1-5 spells diminish and change in capacity to varying degrees
For example, polymorph, the best 4th level spell and arguably the most powerful spell in tier 2, substantially reduces in effectiveness as the beast forms it allows don't keep up with Tier 3 PCs or encounters. So it gets prepared less.

This effect will depend on subclass, polymorph only applies to trickery cleric (and it has other goodies), but this tendency generally causes a squish towards the middle.

This is essentially the same for all casters though, some subclasses have stronger push and pull factors than others.
Evoker wizard will be prioritizing the blast spells for their entire career, Transmuter doesnt really have anything to pull from the main line, and abjurer and diviner are somewhere in between.

----------


## Frogreaver

> Converging at the high levels is more or less the same for all casting classes. But specifically for clerics,
> There are two factors here,
> -spell relevance
> -spell selection (which has been already covered 
> 
> As level increases the 1-5 spells diminish and change in capacity to varying degrees
> For example, polymorph, the best 4th level spell and arguably the most powerful spell in tier 2, substantially reduces in effectiveness as the beast forms it allows don't keep up with Tier 3 PCs or encounters. So it gets prepared less.


Looking at a 20 round adventuring day with a few short rests thrown in for good measure.

Round 1.  8th level slot
Round 2.  7th level slot
Round 3.  6th level slot
Round 4.  5th level slot
Round 5.  5th level slot
Round 6.  4th level slot
Round 7.  4th level slot
Round 8.  4th level slot
Round 9.  3rd level slot
Round 10.  3rd level slot
Round 11.  3rd level slot
Round 12.  Channel Divinity
Round 13.  Channel Divinity
Round 14.  Channel Divinity
Round 15.  Channel Divinity
Round 16.  Channel Divinity
Round 17.  Channel Divinity
Round 18. 2nd level slot
Round 19.  2nd level slot
Round 20.  2nd level slot

Let's use your polymorph example.  What else is a Trickery Cleric going to use in his 4th level slots that's more impactful than polymorph, even for a level 16 character?  Because until you can tell me that none of the rest really matters.

Or perhaps, we could look at some other subclasses.

Light gets Fireball and Wall of Fire.  Both spells which will still see quite a bit of use in t3.
Tempest gets Sleet Storm and Ice Storm, both will be useful even in t3.
Forge gets Wall of Fire and Animate Objects.  Both good in t3.
War gets Hold Monster.  Great for t3.
Order gets Slow.  Great Debuff even in t3.

----------


## Zuras

It seems pretty straightforward why clerics feel pretty lackluster.  Not everyone may feel the pinch, but the cleric has an absolute desert of features other than spells from 10th through 16th levels.

I dont think anyone is arguing clerics are bad in tier 3, but its quite disappointing to shift from having the most differentiation between subclasses to some of the least.  Since the cleric list has many spells that upcast very effectively, it really makes the 6th-8th level spells seem even worse in comparison.  

Additionally, in tier 3, opponents keep hitting harder and harder, making the clerics base advantages like medium armor and decent non-spell damage ever less relevant.  By 14th level, if you actually hit 4 creatures with your 7th level Banishment, youre going to want to just hide in the back and maintain concentration the rest of that fight.  You definitely shouldnt be trying to enter melee and actually use the extra damage dice from your Divine Strikes.

Lackluster doesnt mean bad.  Every player Ive seen who decided to multiclass out of cleric after 9th level felt pretty mixed about the resultsin most cases its better to just take more cleric levels.  That doesnt mean it cant feel boring or frustrating, especially when the transition to tier 3 means many of the combat mechanics you used to contribute in combat without spellcasting get significantly weaker, relatively speaking.

Personally, the clerics Ive played at higher levels have always seemed extremely useful, but not very flashy compared to other full casters.  Heal has straight up won some really tough combats, but it doesnt trigger anywhere near the DM narration as Reverse Gravity.

----------


## sithlordnergal

> LoL, it has been gone over in the thread.and elsewhere.
> To be frank, much of the criticism of T3 Clerics seems to be levied by persons that often strike me as not having much higher Tier experience.
> 
> Certain things have also changed within the D&D power set, from edition to edition.
> 
> If the 5e Cleric had a 9th level Miracle spell, that essentially was a clerical version of the Wish spell, I suspect that much of the reputed dissatisfaction would evaporate.
> 
> As, it is, I have read arguments that state  that high level Divine Inspiration is _essentially_ a Second, Ninth level spell slot, for 5e clerics.
> 
> ...


What's really funny here, is that I'm probably one of the biggest critics of T3 Clerics, and I play almost exclusively in T3 and above now. I tend to skip one shots that at T2 and lower, and I tend to find those lower levels less enjoyable cause I've been there, done that. I still find them exceptionally lackluster in T3 despite all of that experience. 

I also don't think Miracle would save anything here. Clerics become much better in T4, once they get their final subclass ability, and excellent at level 20 when Divine Intervention always works. A T4 cleric is extremely fun. But that doesn't really matter much if you have to slog through all of T3, and levels 9 and 10, with only your lower level stuff to rely on. Cause goodness knows their 6th to 8th level spell selection isn't good enough to pull that weight on its own. I'll take a multiclassed character over that slog any day of the week. Hell, the only class I've never done a multiclass with was a Moon Druid, and the only reason he reached level 20 as a single class is because of just how flexible Wild Shape is. Especially when you toss in elemental forms.

----------


## Witty Username

> Let's use your polymorph example.  What else is a Trickery Cleric going to use in his 4th level slots that's more impactful than polymorph, even for a level 16 character?  Because until you can tell me that none of the rest really matters.


Banishment (more or less the same spell at this level, and harder to escape), Death Ward, upcast spirit guardians. Guardians of Faith if you don't need a lot of damage but you need it to be reliable.

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## Amnestic

> and levels 9 and 10, with only your lower level stuff to rely on.


Wait, so now their 5th level spells are also bad? Seems a bit suspect on that one.

Divine Intervention at 10 isn't going to be use the same as DI at 20 - with a 10% chance of success you're going to be using it on 'downtime' things (i.e. True Resurrection) or 'prebuff' things (Gate-ing a bigtime Celestial to you to help out). If you fail? No big deal, can just try again tomorrow, you're not reliant on it but when it works it's a big boost.

----------


## Frogreaver

> Banishment (more or less the same spell at this level, and harder to escape), Death Ward, upcast spirit guardians. Guardians of Faith if you don't need a lot of damage but you need it to be reliable.


You really think those spells used in a level 4 slot are generally better than polymorph in a level 4 slot at level 16?

----------


## diplomancer

> You really think those spells used in a level 4 slot are generally better than polymorph in a level 4 slot at level 16?


Probably yes. Are you using it on enemies? Legendary Resistance is an issue. Are you using it on allies? Sure, it's still a bundle of HPs, but your ally is now less effective. And you're using your concentration for it on top of that, so you have to take that opportunity cost into account as well.

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## MrStabby

> Probably yes. Are you using it on enemies? Legendary Resistance is an issue. Are you using it on allies? Sure, it's still a bundle of HPs, but your ally is now less effective. And you're using your concentration for it on top of that, so you have to take that opportunity cost into account as well.


Banishment, yeah I would say at higher levels it is better than polymorph (even if only in terms of being prepared - either a 4th level single target spell or a higher level mass control spell). Guardian of faith though? Nah, I just don't think it's that good.

I think the bigger issue is that you shouldn't be just looking at what gets cast on each turn of combat, but rather which spells are.in effect.  So if your 8th level spell slot is on banishing 4 creatures and you are concentrating on that for three rounds, then that's 3 turns of a level 8 spell slot (and potentially two turns of non concentration other spells).

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## Guy Lombard-O

> You really think those spells used in a level 4 slot are generally better than polymorph in a level 4 slot at level 16?


Polymorph is never a bad choice for a 4th level slot.  But there are plenty of other choices.  For the Trickery in particular, Dimension Door is another very solid (non-concentration) choice for those slots.

But all the other choices mentioned above, plus the occasional upcast Bless for the whole party or an upcast Command, are other solid choices.  When you're high enough level, concentration is often just not available for a Polymorph.

----------


## diplomancer

> Banishment, yeah I would say at higher levels it is better than polymorph (even if only in terms of being prepared - either a 4th level single target spell or a higher level mass control spell). Guardian of faith though? Nah, I just don't think it's that good.


Yeah,  I wouldn't put Guardian of Faith either, at least not in most circumstances. But Death Ward, Banishment and upcast Spirit Guardians? Easily.

----------


## Witty Username

> Yeah,  I wouldn't put Guardian of Faith either, at least not in most circumstances. But Death Ward, Banishment and upcast Spirit Guardians? Easily.


I agree it is a weird call, guardians of faith is for when 10, 20 or 60 damage are very important numbers to hit with consitency. Spirit Guardians is a better cast most of the time but it has more variance, if you think a low roll will biff the effect, guardian of faith won't have that issue. And in single target situations the average is, slightly higher (about a point, at most).

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## Amnestic

Guardian of Faith's _8 hour_ no-concentration duration is notable. While adventurers are often the 'aggressor', it's not always the case and it makes GoF a solid cast for anything where you have at least one spare action before they arrive and the enemy is coming to you.

Spirit Guardians or Guardian of Faith? You don't need to choose, you can have both.

----------


## sithlordnergal

> Wait, so now their 5th level spells are also bad? Seems a bit suspect on that one.
> 
> Divine Intervention at 10 isn't going to be use the same as DI at 20 - with a 10% chance of success you're going to be using it on 'downtime' things (i.e. True Resurrection) or 'prebuff' things (Gate-ing a bigtime Celestial to you to help out). If you fail? No big deal, can just try again tomorrow, you're not reliant on it but when it works it's a big boost.


Its less that they're bad, and more that they help drive home the issue of how Cleric subclass abilities are gained. I.E. the fact that you go 9 levels without a proper subclass ability. Though you do get Domain spells at level 9, so I guess its unfair to include level 9 in it. Alright, levels 10 to 17 then. Also, because of the low chance of Divine Intervention, its basically in the same boat as Favored Terrain. Powerful, absolutely. Game breaking? Potentially. But there's an equally good chance that you'll never actually get to use it cause of how low the chance is. 

If I were to rework Divine Intervention, I'd either make it a base 10, and have it increase by 5% each level. Or just make it a d20 roll instead of a d100.

----------


## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Its less that they're bad, and more that they help drive home the issue of how Cleric subclass abilities are gained. I.E. the fact that you go 9 levels without a proper subclass ability. Though you do get Domain spells at level 9, so I guess its unfair to include level 9 in it. Alright, levels 10 to 17 then. Also, because of the low chance of Divine Intervention, its basically in the same boat as Favored Terrain. Powerful, absolutely. Game breaking? Potentially. But there's an equally good chance that you'll never actually get to use it cause of how low the chance is. 
> 
> If I were to rework Divine Intervention, I'd either make it a base 10, and have it increase by 5% each level. Or just make it a d20 roll instead of a d100.


I think if DI and Destroy Undead scaled better the 'lackluster' argument would have less traction.  Destroy Undead is just so niche as to be almost worthless.  Ghasts, the highest CR affected from level 11-13 really don't look like much of a threat to an early tier 3 party, unless they're in huge numbers and accompanied by some higher level allies.  They're only +5 to hit and saves against their abilities are DC 10 Con, so pretty much in auto-succeed range for a lot of characters.  Given that DU only destroys things that are would be turned anyway is there any benefit to this ability?  I'd say there is some, mostly because in the scenario I described where the lower level undead are fodder for a couple of higher level undead or casters (depending on initiative order) characters acting after the Cleric and before the undead are often hampered by the line that says turning ends if they take damage.  So AOE spells can be problematic, and destruction paves the way for martials to close with the real targets.
But, this is really niche.

----------


## Thunderous Mojo

Orcus invades your Prime Material world, with an army of Ghouls and Ghasts is a storyline that has been used for decades.

Turn Undead is still a threat against a bevy of Deathknights.
Harness Divine Power is also a nice boon granted in TCE.

Being able to convert Channel Divinity uses into spell slot recovery, two to three times a day is a great general ability.

----------


## sithlordnergal

> I think if DI and Destroy Undead scaled better the 'lackluster' argument would have less traction.  Destroy Undead is just so niche as to be almost worthless.  Ghasts, the highest CR affected from level 11-13 really don't look like much of a threat to an early tier 3 party, unless they're in huge numbers and accompanied by some higher level allies.  They're only +5 to hit and saves against their abilities are DC 10 Con, so pretty much in auto-succeed range for a lot of characters.  Given that DU only destroys things that are would be turned anyway is there any benefit to this ability?  I'd say there is some, mostly because in the scenario I described where the lower level undead are fodder for a couple of higher level undead or casters (depending on initiative order) characters acting after the Cleric and before the undead are often hampered by the line that says turning ends if they take damage.  So AOE spells can be problematic, and destruction paves the way for martials to close with the real targets.
> But, this is really niche.


I actually agree with you here. If DI and Destroy Undead scaled better, then Clerics wouldn't be as lackluster. Sure, their lack of subclass abilities and spell variety still hurts them, but DI is such a strong ability that it could make up for the lack of those things. _IF_ there was a much higher chance of it occurring. Given its a 100% chance at level 20, I'd say making it a d20 roll instead of a d100 would make a lot more sense. You have about a 50/50 shot of it working at level 10, and it just improves from there. As for Destroy Undead...I'm torn. It does need to be buffed so that you can use it against the actual undead you face in T3, but buff it too much and it'll destroy encounters on its own. as it stands, its in a weird niche for a situation I've only ever seen happen once...And even then, Sunburst did a better job at handling the situation cause it had a bigger radius and blinded creatures we were fighting.





> Orcus invades your Prime Material world, with an army of Ghouls and Ghasts is a storyline that has been used for decades.
> 
> Turn Undead is still a threat against a bevy of Deathknights.
> Harness Divine Power is also a nice boon granted in TCE.
> 
> Being able to convert Channel Divinity uses into spell slot recovery, two to three times a day is a great general ability.


Turn Undead is still handy, as is Channel Divinity, we're just saying the Destroy Undead part is pretty niche. If Orcus wants to bring in an army of ghouls and ghasts, he can do so. The T3 party likely isn't going to be fighting that army. They're probably going to be closing whatever portal orcus used to enter the Prime Material Plane as a T4 Party distracts him, and a T1 or T2 party deals with the Ghouls. Ghouls simply aren't an actual threat to a T3 party, unless the DM is throwing a metric ton of them at the party.

----------


## MrStabby

At a personal level, one thing that kind of offends me about the high level Cleric is that I think it should be a pretty good exorcist.  If there are demons about, you want to call a cleric.

The lack of spells on the cleric list, that are good, actually let you take a lead in combating enemies (rather than buffing your own side) and don't ask for saves that then struggle against magic resistance and legendary resistance so common on fiends is a bit annoying.

----------


## Thunderous Mojo

> . Ghouls simply aren't an actual threat to a T3 party, unless the DM is throwing a metric ton of them at the party.


Right, _which is exactly what should be happening_(and Ghouls are not a threat to T3 PCs _because_ of abilities like Turn Undead).

How crazy do we want to go with the cheesewiz? 

Capstone Destroy Undead could be the player chooses one undead creature and slays it instantly.  I would be fine with an upgrade like this.

----------


## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Right, _which is exactly what should be happening_(and Ghouls are not a threat to T3 PCs _because_ of abilities like Turn Undead).
> 
> How crazy do we want to go with the cheesewiz? 
> 
> Capstone Destroy Undead could be the player chooses one undead creature and slays it instantly.  I would be fine with an upgrade like this.


So if we all agree Ghouls aren't a threat in T3, then Destroy Undead is more or less a waste of ink.  It's so bad that it's hardly been mentioned in the thread, and Divine Intervention is actually viewed as more salvageable because despite how unlikely it is to work and how open ended it is, DI could actually do something.

----------


## PhoenixPhyre

> Right, _which is exactly what should be happening_(and Ghouls are not a threat to T3 PCs _because_ of abilities like Turn Undead).
> 
> How crazy do we want to go with the cheesewiz? 
> 
> Capstone Destroy Undead could be the player chooses one undead creature and slays it instantly.  I would be fine with an upgrade like this.


I'd say "a creature of CR <= 1/2 level is destroyed, no save. Creatures higher than that but CR < level are destroyed if they fail by more than 5."

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## Thunderous Mojo

> So if we all agree Ghouls aren't a threat in T3, then Destroy Undead is more or less a waste of ink.  It's so bad that it's hardly been mentioned in the thread, and Divine Intervention is actually viewed as more salvageable because despite how unlikely it is to work and how open ended it is, DI could actually do something.


A horde of Ghouls _are_ a threat.  Destroying Undead in AD&D was always capped at Ghasts.

The Walking Dead Scenario becomes much safer, when a Cleric can take an hour lunch and come back and destroy every Zombie in the immediate area..twice over.

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## sithlordnergal

> A horde of Ghouls _are_ a threat.  Destroying Undead in AD&D was always capped at Ghasts.
> 
> The Walking Dead Scenario becomes much safer, when a Cleric can take an hour lunch and come back and destroy every Zombie in the immediate area..twice over.


No, a hoard of ghouls isn't a threat, not at T3. They're a threat to a T1 and T2 party, sure...but a T3 party? Not at all. You can deal with that sort of hoard with or without a Cleric. A Cleric being there would make 0 difference to the outcome.

EDIT: So, they weren't exactly ghouls, and it was a T4 party. But there is a module I played where the final encounter tried to make up for a lack of enemies by throwing in a ton of Zombies. Like, it was two wizards, a Shield Golem, two or three evil Paladin NPCs, and a massive zombie hoard. Perfect for a cleric to use their ability...or so you'd think . The Druid cast Sunburst in the hopes of blinding the spell casters, and all but three of the zombies died as collateral damage. Druid wasn't even trying to deal with the zombies.

A hoard of Ghouls is in the same boat. They're such a low level threat that a T3 party could basically ignore them and nothing would change for them. They'd only bother with the hoard if they had to protect NPCs or something.

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## Thunderous Mojo

> A hoard of Ghouls is in the same boat. They're such a low level threat that a T3 party could basically ignore them and nothing would change for them. They'd only bother with the hoard if they had to protect NPCs or something.


Which is precisely when the Heroes get involved. An unmoving Undead horde in an uninhabited desert is not really an issue you call in the Avengers for is it.

An Undead Horde sacking New York is where the Avengers become involved.

Paralysis and Stench and the laws of probability, makes ignoring 400 Ghasts probably a poor idea.

Destroy Undead, is not great, but rather, is a free upgrade to Turn Undead, that lets one take out yard trash, without having to resort to using spell slot, or Long Rest Recharge resources.

Make the Death Knight run, and simultaneously kill the Death Knights cadre of skeletons, for example.

----------


## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Which is precisely when the Heroes get involved. An unmoving Undead horde in an uninhabited desert is not really an issue you call in the Avengers for is it.
> 
> An Undead Horde sacking New York is where the Avengers become involved.
> 
> Paralysis and Stench and the laws of probability, makes ignoring 400 Ghasts probably a poor idea.
> 
> Destroy Undead, is not great, but rather, is a free upgrade to Turn Undead, that lets one take out yard trash, without having to resort to using spell slot, or Long Rest Recharge resources.
> 
> Make the Death Knight run, and simultaneously kill the Death Knights cadre of skeletons, for example.


My current 12th level Paly is nearly immune to Ghasts.  He'd auto-save the DC 10 Con saves.  With Shield of Faith he's got 10 min of chopping them up where only 20s would hit him (Ghouls would still miss on a 20).  It's a stretch to say any Cleric accompanying him is making a huge difference by killing, as opposed to turning them.

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## Thunderous Mojo

> It's a stretch to say any Cleric accompanying him is making a huge difference by killing, as opposed to turning them.


What is the recidivism rate on a destroyed ghoul versus a turned ghoul?
How many rounds will it take for your Paladin, to chop your way through an army of ghouls?

The town dies, but your Paladin got to cover his ass in gore, by taking the most time consuming way possible to take out the trash while the big bad does their thing.🃏

To quote Conan, from the venerable film Conan the Destroyer:
Enough Talk.

----------


## 5eNeedsDarksun

> What is the recidivism rate on a destroyed ghoul versus a turned ghoul?
> How many rounds will it take for your Paladin, to chop your way through an army of ghouls?
> 
> The town dies, but your Paladin got to cover his ass in gore, by taking the most time consuming way possible to take out the trash while the big bad does their thing.🃏
> 
> To quote Conan, from the venerable film Conan the Destroyer:
> Enough Talk.


I get all of that, but the Paly is just one example of one character in an early tier 3 party.  An average group is going to obliterate dozens (possibly hundreds) of unaccompanied ghouls and ghasts without much risk or use of resources.  The Shield of Faith spell just happens to be an example of a single 1st level slot that takes a character to near immunity for 100 rounds.  
Sure (and I said this upthread) there is value to destroying undead in that it's permanent and they're out of the way.  By the same token, all tier 3 casters have ways of obliterating similar numbers of creatures (not limited to undead) using a spell.
I'm struggling to remember times this ability was used impactfully at our table.  When I look at it closely, I can see why.

----------


## Kane0

> I'd say "a creature of CR <= 1/2 level is destroyed, no save. Creatures higher than that but CR < level are destroyed if they fail by more than 5."


Okay, but the fighter should also get something that sahs 'if you hit a creature of CR < 1/5 your level with a weapon attack you can choose to reduce it to 0 HP with the attack', or something similar.

----------


## Amnestic

> My current 12th level Paly is nearly immune to Ghasts.  He'd auto-save the DC 10 Con saves.  With Shield of Faith he's got 10 min of chopping them up where only 20s would hit him (Ghouls would still miss on a 20).  It's a stretch to say any Cleric accompanying him is making a huge difference by killing, as opposed to turning them.


A character that is specifically getting a huge boost to their saves from aura is good on a saving throw? Who'da guessed. 

Meanwhile your average level 12 monk is probably running around with the same +2 consave they had since level 1. Ditto for ranger. Probably also for cleric. And warlocks. Maybe wizards too. Rogues might be up to +3 or +4. Chances are the ghasts are going to be hitting around 25-50% of the time on those characters too, so not exactly 'crit only'. 

Hard to call those "auto-succeed".

----------


## diplomancer

> A character that is specifically getting a huge boost to their saves from aura is good on a saving throw? Who'da guessed. 
> 
> Meanwhile your average level 12 monk is probably running around with the same +2 consave they had since level 1. Ditto for ranger. Probably also for cleric. And warlocks. Maybe wizards too. Rogues might be up to +3 or +4. Chances are the ghasts are going to be hitting around 25-50% of the time on those characters too, so not exactly 'crit only'. 
> 
> Hard to call those "auto-succeed".


Cleric, Warlock and Wizard probably all got Res (Con) by now. I'll give you the monk, but remember that the Destroy Undead (CR3) comes at level 14, not level 12. The same level the monk's got proficiency to all saves.

----------


## Amnestic

> Cleric, Warlock and Wizard probably all got Res (Con) by now.


Unlikely on point buy unless it's literally their one and only feat. Maybe they picked it, but did _everyone_? Rare as they are there's also featless games.




> I'll give you the monk, but remember that the Destroy Undead (CR3) comes at level 14, not level 12. The same level the monk's got proficiency to all saves.


Ghasts are CR2. Destroy Undead (CR2) came on at level *11*, so chances are all those above classes _didn't_ get Res: Con yet. They spent their ASIs on boosting their spellcasting stats. I went with level 12 because that was the character quoted, but if we want to talk about when clerics start blowing up ghasts with Destroy Undead, chances are they're a very real threat with their paralysis still.

----------


## Snails

> At a personal level, one thing that kind of offends me about the high level Cleric is that I think it should be a pretty good exorcist.  If there are demons about, you want to call a cleric.
> 
> The lack of spells on the cleric list, that are good, actually let you take a lead in combating enemies (rather than buffing your own side) and don't ask for saves that then struggle against magic resistance and legendary resistance so common on fiends is a bit annoying.


I strongly agree with this.  

The assumption seems to be that Banishment, Dispel Evil, Flame Strike will scratch this itch.  As a practical matter, I think these options fall short.

A simple tweak would be to have Flame Strike inflict a bonus +4d6 Radiant damage against extraplanar and undead.  That gives FS a strong "wrath of god" feel against certain enemies, and makes FS becomes an adequately attractive spells against enemies that are likely resistant to fire and often make their save.

As for Turning Undead, I prefer that it stay mediocre.  The cleric chassis does not need more than a means to clear undead mooks.  It would be appropriate to strongly boost this as a subclass ability.

----------


## diplomancer

> Unlikely on point buy unless it's literally their one and only feat. Maybe they picked it, but did _everyone_? Rare as they are there's also featless games.


Assuming they prioritize 20 in their casting stat above all other considerations, which is not my experience. What good is getting your enemies to fail their saves if you lose Concentration all the time?

But even if they did prioritize it, yes, if a caster is going to have one and only feat at level 12, that one should be Res (Con).






> Ghasts are CR2. Destroy Undead (CR2) came on at level *11*, so chances are all those above classes _didn't_ get Res: Con yet. They spent their ASIs on boosting their spellcasting stats. I went with level 12 because that was the character quoted, but if we want to talk about when clerics start blowing up ghasts with Destroy Undead, chances are they're a very real threat with their paralysis still.


Fair enough. I was thinking of CR 3 because the one that really bothers me is the 14th level improvement to Destroy Undead. At 11th level you're getting a 6th level slot, literally no other full caster gets anything else (Warlocks get their 3rd Pact Magic slot, which is huge, but, honestly, over late. They should get it at 9 or 10- level 10 is particularly egregious; if Warlocks get _three_ short rests, they're _still_  behind other classes if you convert everything to spell points for a comparison; with 3 slots and 2 short rests, they're basically tied). The _ribbon_ of improving Destroy Undead works for level 11; it doesn't for level 14.

----------


## 5eNeedsDarksun

> A character that is specifically getting a huge boost to their saves from aura is good on a saving throw? Who'da guessed. 
> 
> Meanwhile your average level 12 monk is probably running around with the same +2 consave they had since level 1. Ditto for ranger. Probably also for cleric. And warlocks. Maybe wizards too. Rogues might be up to +3 or +4. Chances are the ghasts are going to be hitting around 25-50% of the time on those characters too, so not exactly 'crit only'. 
> 
> Hard to call those "auto-succeed".


By level 12 all of our casters are going to have their Con saves sorted one way or another, so failure on a DC 10 (the same as you'd plan for concentration) just isn't a threat.  Then you've got the classes that get Con saves to start with.  So, sure there will be some characters that could have a problem with saves, though again in a party of 4 something as minimal as Bless or Inspiration Dice will likely be available.

For me Destroy Undead is just so niche.  How do you even build an encounter for a typical party where the level 12 cleric gets to be the 'star' due to this ability?  CR1 Ghouls have such low hp that other casters are just going to blast them out of existence as efficiently as the cleric.  CR2 Ghasts are a little easier to work around since a single 3rd level spell isn't going to do the job, so turning is actually more efficient.  Of course DU is still only an upgrade on those that were turned anyway.
I continue to think the main upgrade on the Destroy function is initiative dependent; the rest of your party doesn't have to work around (and not injure) turned undead until they get their turn and flee.

----------


## Snails

I have never ever seen impressive results from Turn Undead in any edition, outside of low level play when cleric AoE options are very limited.  Not saying it is necessarily bad or unworthy of the Action spent, but it is just one thing on the list of options, that is only remarkable because it has an "old skool cleric-ky" flavor.

Light and Tempest clerics seem popular in my group, and they usually have better things to do with their Channels.  Other clerics facing a horde of undead are likely to cast Spirit Guardians as an opening move.

----------


## Thunderous Mojo

> For me Destroy Undead is just so niche.  How do you even build an encounter for a typical party where the level 12 cleric gets to be the 'star' due to this ability?


Destroy Undead is not a separate power, it is a _slight_ boost to Turn Undead.  Turn Undead is still useful in T3+, (as we agreed earlier).

One aspect about a horde of medium size creatures is that a horde does make a decent obstruction within a confined space. 

A scenario where one needs to get to one end of a room quickly, could highlight the value of blowing up a bunch of mooks that essentially are acting like speedbumps.

As an aside, Demi-liches are the only undead that I can remember that have Turn Immunity.  While many powerful undead creatures have Turn Resistance, there are options to mitigate Advantage on Saving Throws in the system.

----------


## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Destroy Undead is not a separate power, it is a _slight_ boost to Turn Undead.  Turn Undead is still useful in T3+, (as we agreed earlier).
> 
> One aspect about a horde of medium size creatures is that a horde does make a decent obstruction within a confined space. 
> 
> A scenario where one needs to get to one end of a room quickly, could highlight the value of blowing up a bunch of mooks that essentially are acting like speedbumps.
> 
> As an aside, Demi-liches are the only undead that I can remember that have Turn Immunity.  While many powerful undead creatures have Turn Resistance, there are options to mitigate Advantage on Saving Throws in the system.


OK, so we agree it's a slight boost to a very narrow set of foes.  In the context of the thread, do the improvements at 11th and 14th level, as well as the extremely slow progression to Divine Intervention provide any push-back to the OP through tier 3?  Because, other than 3 spell slots that's it for 6 levels.

----------


## Thunderous Mojo

> Because, other than 3 spell slots that's it for 6 levels.


Like Ron Burgundy in Anchorman, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells are sort of a big deal.

You Stay Classy, San Diego! (🃏)

----------


## diplomancer

> Like Ron Burgundy in Anchorman, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells are sort of a big deal.
> 
> You Stay Classy, San Diego! (🃏)


True, but it's still too little (and Clerics are the only full caster with that issue- for the life of me, I can't understand why Wizard, Druids, Warlocks and Bards have their subclass capstone at level 14, and Clerics only get it at level 17- as far as I can remember, the only one that would really cause issues this early is the Arcana Cleric capstone- but that came in a later book, and the capstone could easily be rewritten to only get the new domain spells at the appropriate levels.)

"what's the difference between a 11th level cleric and a 16th level cleric"?

"They have bigger numbers- oh, and twice a day they get to do big things the other one can't" is kinda of an unsatisfactory answer... six levels is a long time to play for such small changes.

----------


## Thunderous Mojo

When looking at a cleric PC as a holistic whole, it is has not been my experience that clerics suffer in play when compared to classes that garner more class abilities, in T3+.

Take an ability such as Tongue of the Sun and Moon, that monks receive.
Being able to understand all languages and be understood in return by all creatures that speak a language is a cool ability, (especially in a campaign that features interplanar/World hopping travel).

Yet a clever cleric, has been able to have a Twitter style conversation, (25 word response and answer), with _any_ creature that has an Intelligence score of 1, through use of the Sending spell, since 5th level.

As a 5th level character, expending a 3rd level slot to have a chat with something is a high cost.  In T3, (especially if Harness Divine Power is is play), the cost of a 3rd level slot is much more affordable.

One of the most inventive combos I have seen in play is a Forge Cleric using the spells Animate Objects and Sending, to interrogate a warded, secret door in my version of Undermountain.

A cleric is similar to certain empire builds in the game Stellaris.  The class takes solid advantages in the early game, and enhances them throughout play. A cleric may a gentler power curve  when compared to certain builds, but clerics have a power curve that _does steadily increase_, and contains many potential power combinations, that can take people by surprise.

----------


## Guy Lombard-O

> "They have bigger numbers- oh, and twice a day they get to do big things the other one can't" is kinda of an unsatisfactory answer... six levels is a long time to play for such small changes.


I felt this way myself in a campaign that has so far gone from 1-13.  Putting my money where my mouth is, I multiclassed out from cleric 9 into sorcerer (despite only having a 14 Cha).  There have definitely been a few moments of regret, like when I wish I could Word of Recall the party out of a dire situation.  But overall, I think I'm happier with the new abilities and greatly expanded spell options than if I'd stuck with cleric.

When the OP asks if clerics are "lackluster" after T2, I think maybe there's an important distinction to be made between playing a PC who has worked up through the lower levels in a long campaign, and playing one who started at a higher level (or a one-shot).  I don't think that there's anything inherently weak, boring or lacking in the cleric package if you just look at it objectively in a vacuum as, say, a level 13 PC.  It'll have lots of good spells, tons of thematic tweaks from the subclass, and good overall abilities.  But if you're playing the same PC up from 1-14 and have already thoroughly explored the abilities gained in T1 & T2, then I think the picture is different.  It isn't that the T3 cleric doesn't have cool stuff.  It's just that they don't gain much _new_ cool stuff.

I didn't lose any of my good T1 & T2 cleric abilities and spells when I multiclassed out.  And a number of cleric spells are famous for upcasting well on top of that.  But I honestly feel like what I gained from the new levels in sorcerer were more valuable (both mechanically _and_ thematically) than what I'd have gotten from additional levels in cleric.  It's certainly not a decision with a clear winner or anything.  But I don't think I'd have ever even considered multiclassing out of any other class of full caster.  Which really says something about the later development of clerics.

----------


## MrStabby

> I have never ever seen impressive results from Turn Undead in any edition, outside of low level play when cleric AoE options are very limited.  Not saying it is necessarily bad or unworthy of the Action spent, but it is just one thing on the list of options, that is only remarkable because it has an "old skool cleric-ky" flavor.
> 
> Light and Tempest clerics seem popular in my group, and they usually have better things to do with their Channels.  Other clerics facing a horde of undead are likely to cast Spirit Guardians as an opening move.


I have seen a couple of times turn undead has been good at high levels.  One was against a load of shadows... like about 30 of them (I remember 5 clusters of 5 and more scattered about).  That thinned out their numbers considerably.  

The second time was Will o'wisps, wights and some zombie beholders and a vampire - the zombie beholders were not all in range, but a couple were.  Overall it was looking, not so much like a tough fight, as a fight that would consume a lot of resources on a long day.

Its a niche ability but also quite cool.  I do wish there were more feats or ACFs to support it.

----------


## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Like Ron Burgundy in Anchorman, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells are sort of a big deal.
> 
> You Stay Classy, San Diego! (🃏)


Well, it's 6th, 7th, and 8th, and yes they are a big deal.  But when there are numerous other full casters getting the same 3 slots with (what most posters consider) better + more varied spells the question needs to be asked.  Destroy Undead and Divine Intervention progression placed alongside the features other full casters are getting from 11-16 don't look good.

Further, if the 6th-8th level spells available are not good enough to be used instead of upcasting existing 1st-5th level spells regularly, then DU and DI progression needs to stand up against the lower level features of other full casters.  My only experience playing a Cleric to the end of tier 3 I got enough mileage out of Divine Word alone that it was worth staying single classed, but I'm sure there are a lot of campaigns where that 6th -8th level list just doesn't provide enough.

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## Amnestic

New level 10 feature: Minor Domain. You get the domain spells (but no other features) of another, deity-relevant domain at levels 10-14, unlocking a new spell level at each level.

Turn them into the king of upcasting, why not.

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## Zuras

> When looking at a cleric PC as a holistic whole, it is has not been my experience that clerics suffer in play when compared to classes that garner more class abilities, in T3+.


I dont think most players calling Tier 3 Clerics lackluster think theyre bad.  I certainly dont.  

The issue is more that they dont feel particularly impressive, mostly due to the base cleric spell list.  In my experience, the strength of the cleric list is in non-concentration buffs, reactive spells (especially debuff removal) and offensive spells with excellent action economy that avoid friendly fire.  Death Ward, Aid and Freedom of Movement, for example, would all be terrible spells if they required concentration.  Heal is probably your best 6th level spell, but its reactive, generic, and shared with Druids.  Heroes Feast is also extremely strong, but its a pre-combat mass debuff avoidance spell.

The situation also feels worse than it actually is because you stop getting all the extra new tools to be pro-active and creative from your domain, and your relative competence at combat has eroded.  At 4th level, a cleric wading into melee is a solid plan.  At 9th level youre only taking the Attack action to save spell slots during a long day, and if youre still taking melee attacks at 14th level its because your party doesnt have someone with extra attack to wield the Legendary magical greatsword.

Fundamentally, if you were playing a cleric of a given domain specifically because you like the specific flavor of the domain, you dont get any more of that good stuff from levels 10-16, plus if you enjoyed hitting monsters with a stick at lower levels, youre (relatively) much worse at it.

My clarified take on Tier 3 clerics is if your Channel Divinity and domain spells were your favorite abilities in Tier 2, clerics may feel very lackluster in Tier 3.

Your best new spells are all different ways to tell the DM no, you dont get to kill, possess, curse, poison or charm the party.  That can be pretty powerful, but it doesnt open up new creative possibilities the same way something like Mass Suggestion or Wind Walk does.

----------


## Thunderous Mojo

> Further, if the 6th-8th level spells available are not good enough to be used instead of upcasting existing 1st-5th level spells regularly, then DU and DI progression needs to stand up against the lower level features of other full casters.  My only experience playing a Cleric to the end of tier 3 I got enough mileage out of Divine Word alone that it was worth staying single classed, but I'm sure there are a lot of campaigns where that 6th -8th level list just doesn't provide enough.


This is a list of spells, that fellow Playgrounder, dark.revenant, posted on a discord chat regarding this topic:

Conjure Celestial
Etherealness 
Heroes Feast
Control Undead
Create Weather
Mass Heal

Fellow Playgrounder, Eladriel, has developed numerous strategies on how to derive some incredible value from a Coautl summoned with Conjure Celestial.

Gate can be such an awesome control spell, especially if someone in the party has excellent Grappling skills.  Seversl weeks ago, a Cubic Gate owned by my spouses Sorcerer, set up the win condition against Grazzt and 5 Death Knights.

My Psi Warrior shoved Grazzt and a Death Knight through a portal, leaving two Death Knight remaining, (one other Death Knight had been slain).

Without Gate, the party was going to die. With access to the Gate spell, the party told a Demon Lord to get their _Patchouli stink out of our local dimension_.  Legendary Resistance holds no sway over a Shove attack.

It strikes me as a bit too high of a bar to declare that any spell that is not Wish or Simulacrum is lackluster.  That is akin to declaring that any automobile that is not a super car is a janky, piece of 💩. (🃏).

Of course, it is almost nigh impossible to change peoples earnestly held feelings.
All, I ask, is for people to consider that all the options a cleric has available to them, can allow for some fairly spectacular combos, without having to resort to Wish/Simulacrum shenanigans.

----------


## 5eNeedsDarksun

> This is a list of spells, that fellow Playgrounder, dark.revenant, posted on a discord chat regarding this topic:
> 
> Conjure Celestial
> Etherealness 
> Heroes Feast
> Control Undead
> Create Weather
> Mass Heal
> 
> ...


Your point that just because a spell isn't Wish, Simulacrum, etc doesn't mean it's bad is well taken.  I do think 5e would benefit greatly from not having a few overpowered spells at most levels.  Further, most of those spells are on the Wizard list, which by default means that Bards can get them.  And sorcerers list mostly overlaps with wizard.  Comparisons are going to be natural.

At the same time Clerics need options that aren't niche, don't require a material cost, and are broadly better than upcasting lower level spells to incentivize not multi-classing.  Do they have them?  Based on your examples and my own with Divine Word... probably.

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## animorte

> Without Gate, the party was going to die. With access to the Gate spell, the party told a Demon Lord to get their _Patchouli stink out of our local dimension_.  Legendary Resistance holds no sway over a Shove attack.


Repelling Blast and other similar things are forever top tier in my mind for this reason exactly.

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## Thunderous Mojo

> At the same time Clerics need options that aren't niche, don't require a material cost, and are broadly better than upcasting lower level spells to incentivize not multi-classing.  Do they have them?  Based on your examples and my own with Divine Word... probably.


I do agree with the sentiment that the Cleric Spell list could use some supplemental options.  Korvin Starmast once suggested that Foresight should be on the Cleric Spell list, and I agree Foresight fits the Clerical Archetype.

My own assessment is the 8th and 9th level options could use some more options.

Bestow Curse, is a spell that seems to bristle with potential.
The Player and DM get to decide what a 9th level Custom Curse does, and that is just plain fun in my book.

To add ahistorical touch point that seems thematically relevant.
When Jacques de Molay,  the Grand Master of the Templars, 
was burned at the stake, Jacques de Molay, _reputedly_, cursed Pope Clement and King Philip of France, whom he deemed culpable for his death and the destruction of the Templar Order.

Both the King and the Pope, died within the year.
It was commonly accepted, the curse worked.

_Bestow Curse, is like a Build a Bear store, but for curses._

----------


## 5eNeedsDarksun

> I do agree with the sentiment that the Cleric Spell list could use some supplemental options.  Korvin Starmast once suggested that Foresight should be on the Cleric Spell list, and I agree Foresight fits the Clerical Archetype.
> 
> My own assessment is the 8th and 9th level options could use some more options.
> 
> Bestow Curse, is a spell that seems to bristle with potential.
> The Player and DM get to decide what a 9th level Custom Curse does, and that is just plain fun in my book.
> 
> To add ahistorical touch point that seems thematically relevant.
> When Jacques de Molay,  the Grand Master of the Templars, 
> ...


This is a pertinent thread for me as I currently have a tier 2 Death Cleric (with magical armor not made of metal) and the plan was to stay single classed.  I was checking out the level 6 spells last night and trying to figure out what would be good enough to be used more often than upcasting something else.. say Spirit Guardians.  Heal is probably my top choice, but it would be hard to commit to praying for multiple level 6 spells on a regular adventuring day.

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## J-H

It's a bit off-theme for a Death cleric, but Sunbeam gives you a 6d8 radiant + blind, Con save for half, 5'x60' beam that you can fire once per round for up to a minute.  You can keep Spiritual Weapon running with your bonus action at the same time, or do something else for a round and then go back to lasering the enemy.  I think it's one of the better 6th level options.

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## Snails

> This is a pertinent thread for me as I currently have a tier 2 Death Cleric (with magical armor not made of metal) and the plan was to stay single classed.  I was checking out the level 6 spells last night and trying to figure out what would be good enough to be used more often than upcasting something else.. say Spirit Guardians.  Heal is probably my top choice, but it would be hard to commit to praying for multiple level 6 spells on a regular adventuring day.


That last point is worth highlighting.  There is a "softness" in the 6th level spell list, as I can easily imagine preparing 2 or 3 6th level spells and would probably end up burning the slot with an upcast spell.  

These 6th level spells are situationally strong, but the situations where they really matter are not a given.  Heal would be the most commonly used because frontliners going toe to tow with something nasty happens a lot, yet throwing that much healing at one PC may or may not extend the adventuring day.  Planar Ally has potential to be campaign changing, but it is effectively a Mother May I spell -- great if it fits into how your DM wants to work with your party, expensive and annoying otherwise.

Multiclassing looks attractive because it can alleviate spell selection pressure while still providing that 6th level slot for upcasting.  It is very nice to have the space on your prep list to have both Divination and Commune, to cast as rituals.

----------


## Snails

> It's a bit off-theme for a Death cleric, but Sunbeam gives you a 6d8 radiant + blind, Con save for half, 5'x60' beam that you can fire once per round for up to a minute.  You can keep Spiritual Weapon running with your bonus action at the same time, or do something else for a round and then go back to lasering the enemy.  I think it's one of the better 6th level options.


It is a good option, obviously.  The counterargument is since most enemies are stronger in a melee fight than a ranged fight against PCs, you expect to see most enemies rush the party.   Upcast Spirit Guardians gives the same damage while being more likely to get multiple enemies round after round.

If your Cleric urgently needs to dish damage at range, Sunbeam is one of the better options.  

OTOH, if the number of problematic enemies is small, singly or doubly upcast Banish might be even better.

----------


## Zuras

> This is a pertinent thread for me as I currently have a tier 2 Death Cleric (with magical armor not made of metal) and the plan was to stay single classed.  I was checking out the level 6 spells last night and trying to figure out what would be good enough to be used more often than upcasting something else.. say Spirit Guardians.  Heal is probably my top choice, but it would be hard to commit to praying for multiple level 6 spells on a regular adventuring day.


Death clerics do well to stay single-classed.  You dont have quite the same mojo in Tier 3, since your new spells are mostly buffs and healing, and concentration gets harder to maintain against high CR creatures, but your Touch of Death Channel Divinity damage keeps progressing at about the same rate as Sneak Attack, so youre getting more than most clerics from your progression.  Twinning Toll the Dead with Reaper, is also solid, although that will work even if you multi-class.

When I played a Death Domain cleric in tier 3 I spent about 2/3 of my time doing generic cleric stuff and periodically lashing out for 70 necrotic damage in a single strike with an upcast Inflict Wounds.  That was a lower ratio than in tier 2 (more like 60/40 offense to support) but I still felt like I was good at the same stuff as lower levels.

----------


## 5eNeedsDarksun

Thanks for the responses and ideas around Death Cleric and 6th level spells. 
Sunbeam doesn't look bad; when compared to Spirit Guardians (like a lot of things) it just isn't going to look good very often.  Both duration and having your action free are significant advantages to SG.  
On Death Clerics scaling better, yes Touch of Death is worth another 12 points of damage/ day/ Cleric level assuming 2 short rests (and not using CD for turning).  That's definitely weighing into my desire to make a single class work.  This 'quazi-smite' damage, by the way, is really good.  Just pasting damage, with no impact to the action economy, to things you're going to do already (usually Spiritual Weapon) is great.  I know there was a thread on here a while ago where someone calculated the damage for a Touch of Death alone, and it was more than a Paly using every spell slot for (non-crit) smites.  At 6th level (assuming 6 uses) that's 102 points per day.
Planar Ally is definitely worth a look; we're not flush with gp, so I'd probably have to save it for special occasions.  Maybe not an every day spell, but one I could see busting out occasionally, which I think is how it's designed anyway.

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## Zuras

> Thanks for the responses and ideas around Death Cleric and 6th level spells. 
> Sunbeam doesn't look bad; when compared to Spirit Guardians (like a lot of things) it just isn't going to look good very often.  Both duration and having your action free are significant advantages to SG.  
> On Death Clerics scaling better, yes Touch of Death is worth another 12 points of damage/ day/ Cleric level assuming 2 short rests (and not using CD for turning).  That's definitely weighing into my desire to make a single class work.  This 'quazi-smite' damage, by the way, is really good.  Just pasting damage, with no impact to the action economy, to things you're going to do already (usually Spiritual Weapon) is great.  I know there was a thread on here a while ago where someone calculated the damage for a Touch of Death alone, and it was more than a Paly using every spell slot for (non-crit) smites.  At 6th level (assuming 6 uses) that's 102 points per day.
> Planar Ally is definitely worth a look; we're not flush with gp, so I'd probably have to save it for special occasions.  Maybe not an every day spell, but one I could see busting out occasionally, which I think is how it's designed anyway.


The key with Touch of Death is that its burst damage, which makes it very handy for taking out opposing spellcasters or at least breaking their concentration.

Planar Ally is very DM dependent.  Last time I played with a DM who let us use it the party ended up building multiple orphanages to pay off their debt to the celestial in question, and playing out the negotiations was a ton of fun.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> The key with Touch of Death is that its burst damage, which makes it very handy for taking out opposing spellcasters or at least breaking their concentration.
> 
> Planar Ally is very DM dependent.  Last time I played with a DM who let us use it the party ended up building multiple orphanages to pay off their debt to the celestial in question, and playing out the negotiations was a ton of fun.


I'm trying to figure out if it's worth it to get Thorn Whip on this character, and if so, how?  Because Thorn Whip is a Melee Attack it works with ToD.  Added benefit is the pull effect works great with Spirit Guardians, likely resulting in a double dip of damage in 1 round.  Also, at least a couple of the ways I could get this, Magic Initiate and 1 level of Druid, also get me Absorb Elements.  There's also Spell Sniper, but no AE with that one.

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## Zuras

> I'm trying to figure out if it's worth it to get Thorn Whip on this character, and if so, how?  Because Thorn Whip is a Melee Attack it works with ToD.  Added benefit is the pull effect works great with Spirit Guardians, likely resulting in a double dip of damage in 1 round.  Also, at least a couple of the ways I could get this, Magic Initiate and 1 level of Druid, also get me Absorb Elements.  There's also Spell Sniper, but no AE with that one.


I used Spell Sniper myself.  Absorb Elements would be nice, but I ended up wanting the range improvement more.  With Thorn Whip at 60 range you can actually do a single turn alpha strike at range 60 since you can hit the same target with a Thorn Whip + ToD and a Spiritual Weapon + ToD.  It would be even better if you could exceed counterspell range, but since you only use ToD if you hit, opposing casters either waste their counter on a cantrip or eat 40 damage.  

The additional range and avoiding cover also helps if youre using Chill Touch instead of or in addition to Toll the Dead, as it brings your range to 240.  Thats not longbow Sharpshooter level range, but it covers any practical size battle map and gets you multiple shots at a rapidly approaching dragon before it arrives.

The only annoying bit with Spell Sniper is that RAW it doesnt work with Spiritual Weapon.

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