# Forum > Play-by-Post Games > Finding Players (Recruitment) > Filled Esoteric Legends; epic PF1e with 'unusual' classes

## Llyarden

The Crash happened a hundred years ago.

A cataclysmic event where an entire dimension, replete with thousands of years of history, intersected with our own.  Suddenly our world was filled with magic, the supernatural and intelligent non-human races - and monsters: savage, unearthly creatures that seemed to have no purpose but to destroy and kill.

Though there were no recorded survivors from the Otherworld, it was eventually uncovered through the use of magic that the monsters had caused the extinction of the people of the Otherworld, who had, in an attempt to protect themselves, repeatedly created extradimensional prisons for the monsters.  It was eventually this overload of extradimensional spaces, left untouched for centuries, that had caused the Crash.

And soon, the dimensional prisons began to break into our world too.  Like eggs, they drew on the energy of our world to feed the monsters within, and - when they gathered sufficient power - opened, unleashing their contents upon the world.  Thus, it became necessary to travel into the prisons and destroy the monsters and the cores of the prisons before they could endanger the world...and soon it became apparent that the prisons held not only great danger, but the prospect of great riches and power as well.

Thus the profession of adventurer was born: an individual who delves into the so-called dungeons of the Otherworld, using its rewards to earn power far beyond that of humanity and wealth beyond measure.  And no adventurers are better known than the Platinum Five, a legendary group of adventurers with perhaps hundreds of successful dungeon clears to their names, wielding unimaginable powers.

You...are not them.

You could have been.  You've worked every bit as hard as any of the Five, and most likely cleared as many dungeons.  But where the Five are quintessential archetypes of adventurers, you are...something different.  Whether by design or accident, your powers are unusual, perhaps even unique.

And that, alone, is what has left you far behind them, never recognised as their equals.  In such a situation, some adventurers might well have given up.  But for whatever reason, you haven't, despite the lack of fame, despite the unfavourable prices.

And perhaps, one day, it might be you that the world depends upon, and not the Five.

*Spoiler: Big 16*
Show

*1. What game system are you running (D&D, Call of Cthulu, Palladium, GURPS, etc.), and if applicable what edition (Original, Classic, Revised, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 10th, etc.)?* Pathfinder 1E

*2. What 'type' or variant of game will it be (i.e. "Shadow Chasers" or "Agents of Psi" for d20 Modern)? What is the setting for the game (eg. historic period, published or homebrewed campaign setting, alternate reality, modern world, etc.)?* A modern world where a parallel world of magic and the supernatural collided with ours the better part of a hundred years ago, leaving dangerous demiplanes to semi-randomly appear.  Some particular notes:
- Anyone who has Otherworld power is legally obliged to register with the international Adventurers' Guild.  Punishments for failing to do so are enforced by the nation you're caught on, and can range from a token fine to conscription into special military forces.  Not all Adventurers actively explore dungeons on a regular basis, though; crafters, healers and the like also have to register as Adventurers.
- The guild uses two grading scales: 1-10 (particularly for magic and the like) and F-S.  They are more or less interchangeable; broadly speaking F=1-3, E=3-5, D=5-7, C=8-9, B=10, A=Above 10, and S is a special rank that can only be applied by the executive board of the Adventurers' Guild.  You are all A-rank.  The Platinum Five are all S-rank.
- Adventurers accept requests from both other Adventurers and non-Adventurers, which can range from destroying Dungeons to tracking down materials to providing escort duties out in the material world; these requests are usually handled by the Guild (which takes a commission of the fee, but also provides guarantees for both parties.)  National guild heads can unilaterally order Adventurers, or teams of Adventurers, to accept and fulfil a request.

*3. How many Players are you looking for? Will you be taking alternates, and if so, how many?* 2-4, and I will probably create a GMPC because I want to play around with unusual classes as well lol.

*4. What's the gaming medium (OOTS, chat, e-mail etc.)?* Here on the forums.

*5. What is the characters' starting status (i.e. experience level)?* Level 21 Gestalt, 1st Mythic Tier.  You will be advancing in both tier and level as the game goes on.

*6. How much gold or other starting funds will the characters begin with?* A nice round 1 million gp.

*7. Are there any particular character classes, professions, orders, etc. that you want... or do not want? What are your rules on 'prestige' and/or homebrewed classes?*  Yes, and this is the big one.  I want people to play something...unusual, something that gives you a unique playstyle.  As such, while I'm not going to _enforce_ it, I highly suggest taking no more than one 'staple' class - by which I mean the ones that are usually available and well-used: Spheres, PoW, Akashic, Psionic, and of course base Paizo classes - and moreover using whatever staples you do take as a backbone to support a more unusual class.  Of course, if you can figure out some sort of different playstyle to normal, such as through an esoteric archetype or by focusing around a particular weird feat or something, then by all means use two 'staple' classes.

*8. What races, subraces, species, etc. are allowed for your game? Will you allow homebrewed races or species? 'Prestige' races or species?* Any of the standard races intended for PCs, or Spheres of Origin.  Your default form should be traditionally humanoid in appearance.  (From a fluff standpoint, it's worth noting that 'humans' refers to everyone, and the mechanical race of human is referred to as a 'baseliner.')

*9. By what method should Players generate their attributes/ability scores and Hit Points?* 30 point buy, max hp.

*10. Does your game use alignment? What are your restrictions, if so?*  Yes.  Your alignment is a facet of your Otherworld nature, and is not affected by your behaviour in the real world; the most straightforward way to change your alignment is to use alignment-descriptor effects.  If you have an alignment restriction for your classes/feats/items/whatever, however, it is treated similar to a code of conduct, and you _do_ have to adhere to that.

*11. Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it?*  Multiclassing is fine.

*12. Will you be doing all of the die rolling during the course of the game? Will die rolls be altered, or left to the honor system? If players can make die rolls, which ones do they make, how should they make the rolls, and how should they report them?*  Rolls will be on the forum.

*13. Are there any homebrewed or optional/variant rules that your Players should know about? If so, list and explain them, or provide relevant links to learn about these new rules.*  Yes:
- Feat Tax Rules
- Background Skills
- 2 traits, or 3 traits and a drawback
- These rules for Epic PF; you will most likely have to homebrew your own epic progressions.
- All Otherworlders have an ability called 'Otherworld Intuition,' a basic magical power that allows you to analyse your Otherworld powers and understand them in a way that's easily intuitive to you.  Basically, this means that your character can know about everything that's on their character sheet - however, the specific _numbers_ vary between individuals' interpretations of the results of the ability, so it's useless to compare two different individuals' Intution.  Any abilities you have that can give your character information (such as _detect magic_, knowledge checks, etc) are translated through Intuition.  (From a fluff perspective, because it's the modern day and video games exist, most people see their Intuition as a video-game-style status screen, but that's not mandatory.)

*14. Is a character background required? If so, how big? Are you looking for anything in particular (i.e. the backgrounds all ending up with the characters in the same city)?*  Yes.  Your characters must all be in the city of Sanctuary, the so-called City of Adventurers; a city built upon a manmade island and located at the epicentre of the Crash from a century ago, it is now the home of the Adventurers' Guild Headquarters, as well as the headquarters of the Platinum Five, and the general place to go for items, trades, requests, and all manner of other adventurer-related tasks.  And while not strictly backstory-related, your characters must also all be members of the Adventurers' Guild in good standing and willing to obey the rules of the Guild (because the story would kinda break after like the first encounter if you choose to disobey the rules.)

*15. Does your game involve a lot of hack & slash, puzzle solving, roleplaying, or a combination of the above?*  A bit of a mix mechanically, plus roleplaying.

*16. Are your Players restricted to particular rulebooks and supplements, or will you be allowing access to non-standard material? What sources can Players use for their characters?*  Anything freely and legally available is fair game.  This includes 3.5 homebrew (though not actual 3.5 material given copyright laws), though you will have to convert it yourselves.  Just to reiterate what has been mentioned above, however - what I want is for people to use _unusual_ stuff, not just Spheres/PoW/Psionics/Akashic.

I am expecting this to be a relatively low-optimisation game.  I know that is a rather nebulous request, but please at minimum avoid any 'auto win' abilities.

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## AvatarVecna

The common stuff is common because its good. Solidly rated on power, versatility, and fun. Spheres is well-liked because it bends the whole system towards T4-T2, to make sure everyone has a good enough time without anyone completely overshadowing anyone else.

Anyway, 3.5 homebrew requests. If approved, we can discuss ways they might be improved to be PF appropriate?

Chronologist

Pretty Soldier

Chaos class line

Daredevil

Dwarven Defender (built around 3.5 feat line, will need PF updating)

...that should do for a start.

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## Darius Vibrtrar

Does this include 3.5 3rd party?

Like the green ronin assassin core class?

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## samduke

@Llyarden

are you using automatic bonus progression rules ?


RE#16 Anything freely and legally available is fair game.  This includes 3.5 homebrew

well lets see about a few things that you might allow 

anything from these

Librim Eternia: Tome of Epic Prestige

Oslecamo's 

PF Custom races

Other Requests

PF
Bonus Domain [Magic] [Epic]
Prerequisites: Wisdom 21, Divine caster level 21st. 
Benefit: Choose an additional domain from your deitys domain list.  You now have access to that domains spells and granted powers as normal for your domain spells and the domains granted powers. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.  Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different domain

I would like to alter the wording just slightly and eliminate "from your deitys domain list" as what I am thinking about the deity does not have the "Magic Domain or sub domain" which I would like to use

as this is based on City of Adventurers where the characters are members of the Adventurers' Guild

A class that recently I took a look at City of 7 Seraphs, Aethernaut - is a class that I have never played, and could tie in well for Adventurers' Guild

the other classes TBD

edited

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## Dakrsidder

Tentative interest 

Unfortunately, Im relatively inept when it comes to pf material, so Ill probably just request 3.5 material sometime later. However, as 3.5 official material is restricted, I wonder if any 3.5 homebrew would be affected, such as spell-casters or a retool considering theyd likely make use of quite a bit of official material.

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## AvatarVecna

Tinker

Jiriku Monk

Grod Rogue/Swashbuckler

Grod Paladin

Grod Diviner

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## Thokk_Smash

For your consideration, the Servant Soul.  Never played it, but I love the Fate series, and it's definitely a unique class.

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## angelpalm

So this is basically like those manhuas such as Solo Leveling where contemporary ppl go into dungeons/gates to fight baddies and prevent incursions and get rich doing so right?

Glad you made the build rules close enough to the other game that is already on here.   I am working on a malefex 20 || Sage 20 with two levels of Ascendent Aegis for that game that should easily qualify for this given all the weird stuff I am trying to incorporate which includes the veilweaving sphere for spheres of power.  

My character would be a curio collector/antique dealer and soothsayer fabled to be able to detect and remove curses and heal those that modern science can not.   But every once in a while she picks up her blade and drops the white witch act to grab goodies that might be better off not falling into the wrong hands

*Spoiler: pic*
Show

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## Llyarden

> The common stuff is common because its good. Solidly rated on power, versatility, and fun. Spheres is well-liked because it bends the whole system towards T4-T2, to make sure everyone has a good enough time without anyone completely overshadowing anyone else.
> 
> Anyway, 3.5 homebrew requests. If approved, we can discuss ways they might be improved to be PF appropriate?
> 
> Chronologist
> 
> Pretty Soldier
> 
> Chaos class line
> ...





> Tinker
> 
> Jiriku Monk
> 
> Grod Rogue/Swashbuckler
> 
> Grod Paladin
> 
> Grod Diviner


I don't know that I'd agree on Spheres making it so people don't overshadow each other, but yeah I understand that all that stuff is good.  My point was more that there are other things out there that could well be pretty good themselves and they rarely get allowed.

As for your requests, Chronologist is not allowed (because its class features are balanced around you not having any other levels, and in gestalt that isn't the case), Dwarven Defender I don't know what a Combat Form or Combat Focus but is probably fine, and the rogue/monk/paladin reworks are allowed but I would still consider them 'staple' classes.  Everything else is allowed.




> Does this include 3.5 3rd party?
> 
> Like the green ronin assassin core class?


If it's been posted somewhere (legitimately) online so you can link to it, yes.




> @Llyarden
> 
> are you using automatic bonus progression rules ?
> 
> 
> RE#16 Anything freely and legally available is fair game.  This includes 3.5 homebrew
> 
> well lets see about a few things that you might allow 
> 
> ...


Librim Eternia is allowed, just bear in mind that even one level of them can be pretty powerful.

Oslecamo's classes are allowed _except_ for the monster classes, because they don't fit thematically.

I'd prefer not to use the custom race rules; SoO does more or less the same and does so in a slightly more balanced way imo.

As for reworking the Bonus Domain feat, if you're playing a cleric and just want to have a domain outside your deity's normal list, the Separatist archetype does that.

Aethernaut is allowed.




> So this is basically like those manhuas such as Solo Leveling where contemporary ppl go into dungeons/gates to fight baddies and prevent incursions and get rich doing so right?
> 
> Glad you made the build rules close enough to the other game that is already on here.   I am working on a malefex 20 || Sage 20 with two levels of Ascendent Aegis for that game that should easily qualify for this given all the weird stuff I am trying to incorporate which includes the veilweaving sphere for spheres of power.  
> 
> My character would be a curio collector/antique dealer and soothsayer fabled to be able to detect and remove curses and heal those that modern science can not.   But every once in a while she picks up her blade and drops the white witch act to grab goodies that might be better off not falling into the wrong hands
> 
> *Spoiler: pic*
> Show


Solo Levelling etc was definitely an inspiration, yes.

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## Llyarden

> For your consideration, the Servant Soul.  Never played it, but I love the Fate series, and it's definitely a unique class.


Servant Soul is fine, just bear in mind that a lot of their spells won't be available as they're 3.5 material.

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## samduke

> I don't know that I'd agree on Spheres making it so people don't overshadow each other, but yeah I understand that all that stuff is good.  My point was more that there are other things out there that could well be pretty good themselves and they rarely get allowed.
> 
> As for your requests, Chronologist is not allowed (because its class features are balanced around you not having any other levels, and in gestalt that isn't the case), Dwarven Defender I don't know what a Combat Form or Combat Focus but is probably fine, and the rogue/monk/paladin reworks are allowed but I would still consider them 'staple' classes.  Everything else is allowed.
> 
> 
> 
> If it's been posted somewhere (legitimately) online so you can link to it, yes.
> 
> 
> ...


On mobile, the domain question was tring to get a 3rd domain outside the deity choices, Magic Domain specifically, not sure if seperatist gets there in the levels i am taking
Ok

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## Hellfire014

> *7. Are there any particular character classes, professions, orders, etc. that you want... or do not want? What are your rules on 'prestige' and/or homebrewed classes?*  Yes, and this is the big one.  I want people to play something...unusual, something that gives you a unique playstyle.  As such, while I'm not going to _enforce_ it, I highly suggest taking no more than one 'staple' class - by which I mean the ones that are usually available and well-used: Spheres, PoW, Akashic, Psionic, and of course base Paizo classes - and moreover using whatever staples you do take as a backbone to support a more unusual class.  Of course, if you can figure out some sort of different playstyle to normal, such as through an esoteric archetype or by focusing around a particular weird feat or something, then by all means use two 'staple' classes.


Would "Monster Magic" constitute an unusual playstyle, such as d20pfsrd's Vorpal Knight or ffd20's Primal Mage? Because Sphere's Spellvampire fits the same role.

EDIT: Are Oaths allowed?

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## Heavenblade

Question for GM - how "esoteric" do we need to be? Is a guy with a bunch of guns considered wierd enough? How about a drunken master? Is the "standard" defined by "generic dnd party"?

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## Dakrsidder

I suppose Ill request thought magic and mindscapes classes for the time being

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## Llyarden

> Would "Monster Magic" constitute an unusual playstyle, such as d20pfsrd's Vorpal Knight or ffd20's Primal Mage? Because Sphere's Spellvampire fits the same role.





> Question for GM - how "esoteric" do we need to be? Is a guy with a bunch of guns considered wierd enough? How about a drunken master? Is the "standard" defined by "generic dnd party"?


Within the setting itself, yes, the standard would more or less be 'traditional D&D party.'  From an OOC standpoint, the intent was to encourage a _mechanically_ unusual playstyle (because having a character that doesn't fit the traditional D&D party in-universe is as simple as refluffing it), so something like the vorpal knight or primal mage where their main features change with what they've eaten would fit as long as the ability wasn't overshadowed by other features.




> EDIT: Are Oaths allowed?


Oaths are allowed.




> I suppose Ill request thought magic and mindscapes classes for the time being


Both are allowed.

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## Heavenblade

How does this reflect on builds that are based on unusual mechanical tricks? For example, a combo based on tripping everybody + lover's tread, for a mostly nonlethal combatant who focuses on making everyone his buddies with wonderful flourishes and cloak dances - weird enough?

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## Darius Vibrtrar

{scrubbed}

I believe this should give you the pdf link

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## tonberrian

Hmm, posting interest.

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## watupwithdat

First I need to figure out what unusual stuff there is to play, then see if it's interesting enough and then come up with a concept to apply with.

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## Thokk_Smash

> Servant Soul is fine, just bear in mind that a lot of their spells won't be available as they're 3.5 material.


Oh, good point, the Spell Compendium spells in particular probably weren't ported over.  Plus, the Heroic Spirits' weapons have auto-given enhancements.  I assume any weapon enhancements from 3.5 that weren't ported to PF would be unusable, right?

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## tonberrian

Requesting Evolutionist base class. I know this is a lot to go over.

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## Darius Vibrtrar

well.... since I cant post a link to the Master Assassin books.... Ill try this instead.

Cleric 6                               /      Monk 5
Black Flame Zealot 10          /      Monk of the Long Death 6
Dark Hunter 5                     /      Assassin 10

Use PF Cleric and Monk, but use the 3.5 Prestiege classes as they are relitively underpowered compared to the pathfinder classes. 

The only thing they would be.... exceptional at, is the DC for the Death attack, everything else would be.... situational and niche.

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## Llyarden

> How does this reflect on builds that are based on unusual mechanical tricks? For example, a combo based on tripping everybody + lover's tread, for a mostly nonlethal combatant who focuses on making everyone his buddies with wonderful flourishes and cloak dances - weird enough?


If you can put together an unusual mechanical playstyle using 'staple' classes then that's fine.




> Requesting Evolutionist base class. I know this is a lot to go over.


Evolutionist is fine, just bear in mind the restriction that your default form should be traditionally human in appearance.




> well.... since I cant post a link to the Master Assassin books.... Ill try this instead.
> 
> Cleric 6                               /      Monk 5
> Black Flame Zealot 10          /      Monk of the Long Death 6
> Dark Hunter 5                     /      Assassin 10
> 
> Use PF Cleric and Monk, but use the 3.5 Prestiege classes as they are relitively underpowered compared to the pathfinder classes. 
> 
> The only thing they would be.... exceptional at, is the DC for the Death attack, everything else would be.... situational and niche.


I have no idea what most of those classes are.

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## Darius Vibrtrar

{Scrubbed}

They are mostly offshoots and off color assassin classes

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## samduke

@Llyarden

Build stub wise I am looking at
Aasimar (Angelkin) AL: TN
Aethernaut 21//Cleric of Hei Feng 1/Fighter(Gloomblade) 18/Eternal 2

**
notes Cleric Separatist only gains 2 domains and I was trying for a 3rd domain


serveral PF classes grant domains but they are not Magic domain or have some stiff requirements
so 3.5 has a location that helps get that 3rd domain
Requesting Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment)

Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment) (Planar Handbook 166-7)
Prerequisite Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks, 
Location: The Fortress of Disciplined Enlightenment on the Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus <- this is achievable via Aethernaut
Base Ability: Choose a cleric domain; you gain the granted power of that domain.
Higher-Order Ability: Once per day, you may cast a spell(s) from the cleric domain you have chosen, as though you had prepared the spell(s) normally. You must be of sufficient character level to cast the spell(s) and have a Wisdom equal to 10 + the spell(s) level.


I also wanted to ask if this game was using Fractional BAB/Saves ?
Edited

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## Ancient

Posting interest.

How "modern" is this world currently, is it more modern fantasy, shadowrun-esque, steampunk, or film-noir? Getting a real super hero justice league vibe from the initial description, perhaps with a splash of Rifts.

Requesting Zaydos's Princess.

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## AvatarVecna

Requesting Freelancer

EDIT: Just realized, something went weird with one of my links in the first post of requests, and it meant that the most controversial of the requests was hidden from view? So gonna request it again, just to be absolutely sure:

Daredevil okay?

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## Volthawk

Interested. Going to be an interesting experience, having the first time I've played around with some of these things be an epic game, but hey.

To double-check, is the staple//strange setup required, or can we go for two of the various requested things floating around now (providing they can work together into a cohesive whole, naturally)? Similarly, if a subsystem requested has multiple classes, can they be gestalted together or would you rather we not double-down on things like that (given most of these things aren't quite written with gestalt in mind)? 
Also, for Spheres, are the tech-related might/magic spheres on the table? No idea how strong they are, and I don't have an immediate need for them, just strikes me that they might be appropriate for the setting. Additionally, how are we handling guns?

Request-wise, let's see...

Quel's Chi stuff. Some or all may be staple (given that on the one hand, 3/4 of the classes are remakes of existing classes and the fourth is a caster, although on the other Monk has a bit of a different focus to the normal monk, Samurai is more like the 3.5 intimidate version than the PF Cavalier reskin, and it does a few distinct things), likely gestalted with Evolutionist using the latter to represent self-perfection and cultivation and all that jazz (so sticking within your requirement of staying humanoid) - or if at least one class is non-staple and you okay gestalting the same system, doing that instead. Probably the strongest of my ideas, Chi is pretty solid in itself (and doubling up does mean a _lot_ of Specialisations which are pretty good) and Evolutionist is, well, Evolutionist in a gestalt game which is never bad (as always, a Spheres class is also fine as an alternative gestalt choice, and looking at the other staple systems mentioned Guru from Akashic and Monk from the rework kinda work together quite well thematically). 
Herbalism from Strange Magic. Likely Herbalist proper, maybe gestalted with alchemy-related Spheres stuff if that doesn't end up being too redundant (I can't help but notice that bother systems have a cooking-related archetype/system, or it might be fun thematically if nothing else to go buggier with Entomologist for herbalism and Beastmastery expanded to vermin, for ideas of the top of my head), otherwise probably somethng druidy. Not sure how strong this will end up being, but it doesn't look too strong and the Spheres part is probably solid but not too strong as Spheres typically ends up being. 
I'm looking at the other Strange Magic systems, some look kinda fun but I need some time to figure out how they actually work and some of them are mechanically complex enough that dumping them all on you at once would be unfair, so they'll come later if the above won't work.

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## Thunder999

Not sure what to pair with it yet, but I'm thinking of an Echo

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## thethird

Oh boy...

How do you feel about grammarie and mythos?

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## Ridai

I don't think I ever really played PF1E, but it's a Llyarden game.

Thinking about the Tall Tale to model a very put-upon henchman who against all odds managed to fulfill increasingly ludicrous requests and demands by his former superior (who may have been a villain or a particularly removed-from-reality commander). In the end, the lil' guy basically became a walking fairy tale, doing ridiculous things on a daily basis, without realizing that this is the case, because in his head he is still this little grunt who doesn't like getting yelled at. He was genuinely surprised when he was removed from the clutches of his still oblivious superior that he could do great things on his own for good causes.

For the five Exaggerated Skills given by the class (at this level he has all abilities listed in the spoiler tags for the respective skills), I have penciled in: 
Disable Device ("Minion, go and get me through this whole dungeon!" "Minion, open a path through this heavily fortified castle wall!" "Minion, open this ludicrously secure treasure vault!")Profession (porter) ("Minion, carry me upon my throne to where I wish to go!" "Minion, bring the armory!" "Minion, if I see you rest for even a second throughout the next three days, there will be hell to pay for!")Tumble ("Minion, I demand you run faster than that!" "Minion, you will bring this message through enemy lines post-haste!" "Minion, you will bring this message across the country until tomorrow!")Jump? ("Minion, when I tell you to jump, you will not ask why, but rather how high!") Just found out how PF1E hard-caps jump distance and yeeeaaah, this probably doesn't work at all compared to 3.5

The damage done by Disable Device touch attack feature on Storied tier feels like it could be a problem, so I am considering to rarely/never use that, or voluntarily decrease the damage done or something like that. I like the mental image of this lil' guy doing surprising amounts of damage with a kind of crappy punch or karate chop, but I'm mainly here for the other Disable Device shenanigans.

edit: Working title: Danny, The Henchman Who Could

edit2: Not yet sure what to do with the other gestalt side. There is a gestalt option for Tall Tale in the 14th post of its thread, but getting 10 Exaggerated Skills feels like a little much. I doubt I'll give Danny anything big (like any form of spellcasting) with the other gestalt side, because 20th level Tall Tale already feels like it brings enough combat ability (see Disable Device) and utility.

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## Dakrsidder

I think Ill go with a Philosopher 11/Silent Blade 10//Extractor 9/Paragon 2/Awakened Dreamer 10 or, if it were approved, I could replace the Paragon levels with Normad, assuming Paragon isnt allowed due to flaws not being present, and no idea about a mythic path yet.

Other than that, I should mention that the Awakened Dreamer with their capstone can cast any spell at will. Id be fine having that portion removed considering, even without it, the capstone doesn't seem that bad.

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## Drako_Beoulve

Posting Interest with Warlord 6 / Paragon 15 // Oracle 21

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## Denomar

unusual classes?  Seems like a prime opportunity to play a Vampire Hunter//Commoner with Badass substitution levels.

"Yes hello!  I hear you have a problem!  Does it involve Vampires?  No?  Specifically Vampires.  Yes, just those.....I'm sure.  No?  Oh, well, best of luck then.  Thanks for your time."  _hangs up_

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## Dr.Gunsforhands

> - Anyone who has Otherworld power is legally obliged to register with the international Adventurers' Guild.  Punishments for failing to do so are enforced by the nation you're caught on, and can range from a token fine to conscription into special military forces.  Not all Adventurers actively explore dungeons on a regular basis, though; crafters, healers and the like also have to register as Adventurers.
> - The guild uses two grading scales: 1-10 (particularly for magic and the like) and F-S.  They are more or less interchangeable; broadly speaking F=1-3, E=3-5, D=5-7, C=8-9, B=10, A=Above 10, and S is a special rank that can only be applied by the executive board of the Adventurers' Guild.  You are all A-rank.  The Platinum Five are all S-rank.


Tell me you like One Punch Man without telling me you like One Punch Man.  :Small Tongue: 

I have an idea for a Cyberneticist / Monster Trainer. I'll need extrapolate a little bit of an epic progression for each of them. No multiclassing for me!

I should ask if that's okay before I get too much farther on the sheet, though. I worry because I think Monster Trainer's basic catching ability is _bonkers,_ even if I avoid using it offensively. It might be okay at epic levels, since a lot of enemies dodge it with class levels and our team is supposed have access to 9th-level spells anyway. Or we can restrict it somehow, or I could just go with a relatively normal Summoner for that side instead.

----------


## Shiro_Nogard

Okay, for this I want to create a total time stealer.
Want to take a Quartzer 20 (ffd20), Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20) + Gestalt: Time Bandit 20 (ffd20), turk 1 (ffd20)

----------


## AvatarVecna

Pre-game crafting okay? For that matter, how comfortable are you with custom items?

----------


## Llyarden

> @Llyarden
> 
> Build stub wise I am looking at
> Aasimar (Angelkin) AL: TN
> Aethernaut 21//Cleric of Hei Feng 1/Fighter(Gloomblade) 18/Eternal 2
> 
> **
> notes Cleric Separatist only gains 2 domains and I was trying for a 3rd domain
> 
> ...


Ah, I see, I was suggesting Separatist under the assumption that you would be a 21st level cleric rather than just dipping in it.  Although if that's the case wouldn't Believer's Boon more or less do what you want anyway?

Fractional BAB/saves are in use, yes, I forgot to add that to the houserules.

As for the...feat?..I have no idea what the rules for planar touchstones are and if you can't legally copy them then I can't really allow it.




> Posting interest.
> 
> How "modern" is this world currently, is it more modern fantasy, shadowrun-esque, steampunk, or film-noir? Getting a real super hero justice league vibe from the initial description, perhaps with a splash of Rifts.
> 
> Requesting Zaydos's Princess.


The world as a whole is modern-day; the dungeons are mostly fantasy but there are occasionally weird sci-fi ones.




> Requesting Freelancer
> 
> EDIT: Just realized, something went weird with one of my links in the first post of requests, and it meant that the most controversial of the requests was hidden from view? So gonna request it again, just to be absolutely sure:
> 
> Daredevil okay?


Freelancer is fine.  And yeah don't worry I found the classes in the muddled-up links, I was a bit hesitant on Daredevil but it's allowed.




> Interested. Going to be an interesting experience, having the first time I've played around with some of these things be an epic game, but hey.
> 
> To double-check, is the staple//strange setup required, or can we go for two of the various requested things floating around now (providing they can work together into a cohesive whole, naturally)? Similarly, if a subsystem requested has multiple classes, can they be gestalted together or would you rather we not double-down on things like that (given most of these things aren't quite written with gestalt in mind)? 
> Also, for Spheres, are the tech-related might/magic spheres on the table? No idea how strong they are, and I don't have an immediate need for them, just strikes me that they might be appropriate for the setting. Additionally, how are we handling guns?
> 
> Request-wise, let's see...
> 
> Quel's Chi stuff. Some or all may be staple (given that on the one hand, 3/4 of the classes are remakes of existing classes and the fourth is a caster, although on the other Monk has a bit of a different focus to the normal monk, Samurai is more like the 3.5 intimidate version than the PF Cavalier reskin, and it does a few distinct things), likely gestalted with Evolutionist using the latter to represent self-perfection and cultivation and all that jazz (so sticking within your requirement of staying humanoid) - or if at least one class is non-staple and you okay gestalting the same system, doing that instead. Probably the strongest of my ideas, Chi is pretty solid in itself (and doubling up does mean a _lot_ of Specialisations which are pretty good) and Evolutionist is, well, Evolutionist in a gestalt game which is never bad (as always, a Spheres class is also fine as an alternative gestalt choice, and looking at the other staple systems mentioned Guru from Akashic and Monk from the rework kinda work together quite well thematically). 
> Herbalism from Strange Magic. Likely Herbalist proper, maybe gestalted with alchemy-related Spheres stuff if that doesn't end up being too redundant (I can't help but notice that bother systems have a cooking-related archetype/system, or it might be fun thematically if nothing else to go buggier with Entomologist for herbalism and Beastmastery expanded to vermin, for ideas of the top of my head), otherwise probably somethng druidy. Not sure how strong this will end up being, but it doesn't look too strong and the Spheres part is probably solid but not too strong as Spheres typically ends up being. 
> I'm looking at the other Strange Magic systems, some look kinda fun but I need some time to figure out how they actually work and some of them are mechanically complex enough that dumping them all on you at once would be unfair, so they'll come later if the above won't work.


You can absolutely have an unusual class on either side of the gestalt if you work.  Strange Magic is approved (Interjection Games' stuff was one of the things I was thinking about when I first started setting up this game).  QD's chi stuff is also approved.




> Not sure what to pair with it yet, but I'm thinking of an Echo


Echo is approved.




> Oh boy...
> 
> How do you feel about grammarie and mythos?


I don't really know much about them other than having heard them mentioned.




> I don't think I ever really played PF1E, but it's a Llyarden game.
> 
> Thinking about the Tall Tale to model a very put-upon henchman who against all odds managed to fulfill increasingly ludicrous requests and demands by his former superior (who may have been a villain or a particularly removed-from-reality commander). In the end, the lil' guy basically became a walking fairy tale, doing ridiculous things on a daily basis, without realizing that this is the case, because in his head he is still this little grunt who doesn't like getting yelled at. He was genuinely surprised when he was removed from the clutches of his still oblivious superior that he could do great things on his own for good causes.
> 
> For the five Exaggerated Skills given by the class (at this level he has all abilities listed in the spoiler tags for the respective skills), I have penciled in: 
> Disable Device ("Minion, go and get me through this whole dungeon!" "Minion, open a path through this heavily fortified castle wall!" "Minion, open this ludicrously secure treasure vault!")Profession (porter) ("Minion, carry me upon my throne to where I wish to go!" "Minion, bring the armory!" "Minion, if I see you rest for even a second throughout the next three days, there will be hell to pay for!")Tumble ("Minion, I demand you run faster than that!" "Minion, you will bring this message through enemy lines post-haste!" "Minion, you will bring this message across the country until tomorrow!")Jump? ("Minion, when I tell you to jump, you will not ask why, but rather how high!") Just found out how PF1E hard-caps jump distance and yeeeaaah, this probably doesn't work at all compared to 3.5
> 
> The damage done by Disable Device touch attack feature on Storied tier feels like it could be a problem, so I am considering to rarely/never use that, or voluntarily decrease the damage done or something like that. I like the mental image of this lil' guy doing surprising amounts of damage with a kind of crappy punch or karate chop, but I'm mainly here for the other Disable Device shenanigans.
> 
> ...


Disabling touch could get out of control but as long as you're careful with it, Tall Tale is approved (and I'm fine with the Jump specialisation letting you exceed your speed when you jump as a full-round action, Spheres has something similar.)




> I think Ill go with a Philosopher 11/Silent Blade 10//Extractor 9/Paragon 2/Awakened Dreamer 10 or, if it were approved, I could replace the Paragon levels with Normad, assuming Paragon isnt allowed due to flaws not being present, and no idea about a mythic path yet.
> 
> Other than that, I should mention that the Awakened Dreamer with their capstone can cast any spell at will. Id be fine having that portion removed considering, even without it, the capstone doesn't seem that bad.


Paragon is fine.  I'd be fine with the Awakened Dreamer's capstones if the points didn't immediately refresh when the spell had expired, so if you want to nerf it so your Dream Points are more limited that would also work.




> unusual classes?  Seems like a prime opportunity to play a Vampire Hunter//Commoner with Badass substitution levels.
> 
> "Yes hello!  I hear you have a problem!  Does it involve Vampires?  No?  Specifically Vampires.  Yes, just those.....I'm sure.  No?  Oh, well, best of luck then.  Thanks for your time."  _hangs up_


The badass is intended to be applied selectively by the entire group as individual levels, so a 20th-level badass would be somewhat unbalanced, even if it was applied to commoner levels.  (I know there are other ways of rolling natural 20s on everything with these build rules, but as I mentioned this is intended to be a _low_ optimisation game.)




> Tell me you like One Punch Man without telling me you like One Punch Man. 
> 
> I have an idea for a Cyberneticist / Monster Trainer. I'll need extrapolate a little bit of an epic progression for each of them. No multiclassing for me!
> 
> I should ask if that's okay before I get too much farther on the sheet, though. I worry because I think Monster Trainer's basic catching ability is _bonkers,_ even if I avoid using it offensively. It might be okay at epic levels, since a lot of enemies dodge it with class levels and our team is supposed have access to 9th-level spells anyway. Or we can restrict it somehow, or I could just go with a relatively normal Summoner for that side instead.


I've never actually seen One Punch Man lol.  Cyberneticist and Monster Trainer are allowed.




> Okay, for this I want to create a total time stealer.
> Want to take a Quartzer 20 (ffd20), Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20) + Gestalt: Time Bandit 20 (ffd20), turk 1 (ffd20)


The various ffd20 classes are allowed.




> Pre-game crafting okay? For that matter, how comfortable are you with custom items?


No pre-game crafting.  Custom items I might be willing to consider.

----------


## paradox26

Do you have any concerns about me using material already approved for others? There are a couple of approved classes I would like to try.

----------


## Llyarden

You're welcome to use material that other people have asked for, but I would recommend only doing so for classes that have a lot of options/flexibility, otherwise you might end up with a character that's very mechanically similar to someone else.

----------


## paradox26

Thanks. I was considering the Chaos Cultist, one if a number of options someone requested, and the Evolutionist, which has lots of options.

----------


## Yas392

Are we avoiding rocket tag for low optimization?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> No pre-game crafting.  Custom items I might be willing to consider.


That kinda helps make for an interesting direction for the character. He's a super-crafter who's mostly been working as a shopkeep - taking whatever gold and materials people find in dungeons, and turning them into wonders. He didn't adventure himself, but just by virtue of how cool the stuff he makes are, he was given A-rank. He's not crafted stuff for himself besides temporary knick-knacks as a challenge, because risking his life for a bit of gold seems like a waste of his time and talents...but recently he's been overhearing more and more grumblings from young hotshot adventurers, grousing about how they're outranked by some guy who's never put his life on the line and couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag. His magic isn't up to snuff, and how good can just making items be?

He knows he could be S-Class if he'd been crafting his own items and delving dungeons this whole time. And he feels in a mood to prove it.

----------


## Volthawk

> You can absolutely have an unusual class on either side of the gestalt if you work.  Strange Magic is approved (Interjection Games' stuff was one of the things I was thinking about when I first started setting up this game).  QD's chi stuff is also approved.


Oh, all of Strange Magic is in? That makes life easier. Not sure about Herbalism the more I look into it, though - the gimmick of random plants is fun, but after simulating a couple of days of rolls, what you get out of it for any given day feels weak. Not sure, will keep thinking it over because I like the system. Still, the rest of those classes being alright means I have other ideas there to play around with (at least, when the wiki site isn't feeling sad and lets me look at them).

Nice, the Chi classes are in. Not sure where to take them. The strongest method is almost certainly gestalting one with a mixture of Evolutionist and Paragon, as mentioned before, but while those two do have fun options, it doesn't quite spark joy for this concept. I think I'd rather mix two chi classes together since those look like some fun combinations (Ninja//Samurai for taking advantage of how you can choose to opt-in to only certain parts of the whole code of honour thing and because sneaky and scary is a fun blend, Monk//Samurai looks like a fun mix of fast and tanky and good at throwing out conditions, and Monk//Ninja is just a super-ninja with loads of esoteric techniques, and I'm not particularly a fan of Spiritualist in any of these), so I'm leaning that way. Whichever setup, it looks quite fun and should hopefully hit the requirement of being a little unusual - a lot of mobility and throwing out conditions and such.




> I don't really know much about them other than having heard them mentioned.


For an opinion from the peanut gallery (don't have links to immediate hand, so I'll leave that to someone else): 
Mythos classes are a set of quite high-powered classes that IIRC orginated out of tackling the caster/martial divide by making martials capable of over the top, Exalted-style deeds, and has gone on from there to all kinds of wild fun stuff. Not sure how well it plays with non-mythos stuff, though.
Gramarie is this wild and glorious system that's pretty much magitech for engineering nerds, I suppose. A lot of focus on linking together different machines from different fields of magitech (engines, biotech, pocket dimensions, etc) to make all kinds of crazy contraptions and make traditional fantasy settings cry. Not sure how well it works as something one person does in a group, though, only ever used it in a game where everyone was one and had their own focuses.




> as I mentioned this is intended to be a _low_ optimisation game.


This is nice to hear. Been a while since I've really done high-op things, and even then most of that was just that some popular brew is inherently high-power.

EDIT: Some questions that have come to mind, mix of mechanics and fluff stuff:
 - Both the Oath system and the Chi system have a VoP-equivalent. I'm assuming that they can't be taken together, for the sake of everyone's sanity, yes?
 - Similarly, some of the choices from Bushido Blessing (from Chi rework Samurai) might overlap with some Oaths (off the top of my head, Chugo (Duty and Loyalty) from the former and Oath of Loyalty from the latter). Would they also be forbidden from coexisting, or would the fact that the effects of Bushido Blessing are fairly minor (big bonus to saves against a specific effect - charms and compulsions for this example) mean they can be taken together?
 - On the topic of that code/oath, are there people/groups that would serve as lord/patron in the setting? Not sure the Guild itself/a national head fits, and I'm not sure Guild demands and loyalty to an outside force (a nation or whatnot) could play nice.
 - How much information is given up when becoming registered, and how much of that information is publicly accessible (or accessible to the Guild as a whole rather than the heads)?

----------


## AvatarVecna

Professor Reginald Ventnorwall, blacksmith and shopkeep, is basically ready to start the game.

----------


## samduke

> Ah, I see, I was suggesting Separatist under the assumption that you would be a 21st level cleric rather than just dipping in it.  Although if that's the case wouldn't Believer's Boon more or less do what you want anyway?
> 
> Fractional BAB/saves are in use, yes, I forgot to add that to the houserules.
> 
> As for the...feat?..I have no idea what the rules for planar touchstones are and if you can't legally copy them then I can't really allow it.


Separatist selects one domain from her deitys domain list, and a second domain that is not on her deitys domain list.
it does not offer a 3rd domain at any level

yes the cleric base does have that capstone, but it does not help in this instance
Proxy (Su) At 20th level,  she can select an additional domain from the list offered by her deity.




> Believer's Boon
> Benefit: When you take this feat,
> Choose one domain *granted by your deity*.


as for the 3.x planar touchstones feat request I listed its source and page "legal" if you lack the Source that another matter all together , a simple google search could locate the feat and description but that I can not link here


Believer's Boon, is running afoul of the main issue and that is gaining the magic domain which Hei Feng goes not have listed as a domain and I would need to request the alteration of the feat to allow it by removing the words granted by your deity
as gaining the domain power plus spells are rather important to the build idea

If you are unable to grant the request , then that is fine I will abandon the whole build and go a different route

----------


## AvatarVecna

Considering alternate builds/characters. Can I do something like...

Class A//Freelancer (grabbing features from Class A) to almost gestalt a class with itself?

----------


## Ridai

I decided to give Tall Tale a try in its gestalt form to make a skill monkey, stealth, and utility character. Whipped up a sheet with the Exaggerated Skill selections to look over (Danny Bimsley, aka Minion!/You There!). Specifically tried to stay away from treading on the toes of casters (or shutting down casters), social skills, or speccing into combat, since I didn't want to make a one-man-party type character. Feats not yet picked because oh lord Pathfinder has an intimidating amount of feats and most of them are bad/extremely niche, this will take a while. Thought about may using his high Strength to get into combat maneuvers, but boy does Combat Maneuver Defense scale very quickly.

Feature list summary: Good at getting places (and even through walls, or walls of force), solves the language barrier, telepathy, provides downtime HP healing (currently at-will; may or may not need to be adjusted), limited ability damage/drain and negative level removal, and very limited emergency in-combat healing (and 1/day resurrection panic button), very mobile stealthy, can hear over very long distances, has blindsense and blindsight (and can hear visual information), ludicrous carrying capacity, high Strength, theoretically infinite stamina (as in Con check where Endurance helps auto-successes), Freedom of Movement, can use scrolls.

As for Disabling touch, yeah, I am basically ignoring the damage given. Should I get into the game, it is probably better to discard all formulas and just set it at a certain amount of damage (and a little extra against constructs) that is on par with the other characters without, like, overshadowing dedicated combat characters, since otherwise Danny would deal 100 damage every round (and that strikes me as a bit much).

----------


## MagneticDragon

I am going to make note of this game, and come back to it later.

I have played around with the Tall Tale class before, and found it very fun. Especially with Craft: Alchemy. But genuinely Spheres of Might with it's Trap Sphere and Alchemy Sphere does something the situation generally better than what Craft: Alchemy can do by itself. And I rather doubt that Tall Tale's modification to Alchemical Items would apply to the Sphere's of Might items, thanks to the fact that they already scale, and this game is meant to be low optimization. 

I will also give the other classes a poke as well, see if there is anything there that takes my interest from them.

----------


## Volthawk

Would it be possible to adjust Beastmaster's Beastlord feature to switch around animals and vermin in priority, so it makes vermin friendly and animals indifferent rather than the other way around (plants/other animal-intelligence creatures being unaffected by the switch)? Might try to put together a Herbalist (Entomologist)//Hunter (Beastmaster), grabbing a vermin companion through the Beastmastery sphere with Broad Skills, with the overall thing of being the bug guy (naturally there'd still be the normal herbalist plants on that side and the rest of Beastmastery working on non-vermin and the benefits of any other spheres I pick up on the other side, but bugs would be his _thing_, if you see my meaning). That or just going with chi. I am not a decisive person.

----------


## Llyarden

> EDIT: Some questions that have come to mind, mix of mechanics and fluff stuff:
>  - Both the Oath system and the Chi system have a VoP-equivalent. I'm assuming that they can't be taken together, for the sake of everyone's sanity, yes?
>  - Similarly, some of the choices from Bushido Blessing (from Chi rework Samurai) might overlap with some Oaths (off the top of my head, Chugo (Duty and Loyalty) from the former and Oath of Loyalty from the latter). Would they also be forbidden from coexisting, or would the fact that the effects of Bushido Blessing are fairly minor (big bonus to saves against a specific effect - charms and compulsions for this example) mean they can be taken together?
>  - On the topic of that code/oath, are there people/groups that would serve as lord/patron in the setting? Not sure the Guild itself/a national head fits, and I'm not sure Guild demands and loyalty to an outside force (a nation or whatnot) could play nice.
>  - How much information is given up when becoming registered, and how much of that information is publicly accessible (or accessible to the Guild as a whole rather than the heads)?


Wealth of Spirit would be incompatible with Oath of Offerings/Poverty/Absolute Poverty.  The bushidos, however, would be compatible as they're relatively minor.

Hmm...you could definitely have some agreement with your home country to take, and prioritise, unofficial requests from them without it being made a matter of public record in the Guild, but for characters as powerful as you it wouldn't make too much sense for you to be loyal to anything less than a head of state or whatever the equivalent of a cabinet minister would be (or someone acting with their authority, like a high-ranked CIA person or something).  There would definitely be a risk of clashes between Guild demands and demands from your patron, though.  If a patriotic link wouldn't fit, there are probably some major organisations with similar levels of power, like a Blacksmiths' Guild or Alchemists' Guild or the like.

When you register you give the Guild your name, date of birth, address and country of residence - basically what they need to identify you through your host country's records (which all countries allow), although you can apply to have a pseudonym used for anything public-facing (the Guild still know your real name though).  The Guild track your dungeon explorations, completed requests, and the like, and decide on your rank on their end.  You can optionally add other qualifiers to show what kind of skillset you have (magic-user, item crafter, etc), each of which has their own requirements.  Your name (or pseudonym), country and rank are all public, as are whatever qualifiers you want to make public.  Any dungeon explorations or requests are stored on Guild records which can be accessed through an application to the Guild, so they're technically public too but it's much more of a hassle to get them (and the information they provide is pretty limited).




> Are we avoiding rocket tag for low optimization?


That would be preferable, yes.




> Separatist selects one domain from her deitys domain list, and a second domain that is not on her deitys domain list.
> it does not offer a 3rd domain at any level
> 
> yes the cleric base does have that capstone, but it does not help in this instance
> Proxy (Su) At 20th level,  she can select an additional domain from the list offered by her deity.
> 
> as for the 3.x planar touchstones feat request I listed its source and page "legal" if you lack the Source that another matter all together , a simple google search could locate the feat and description but that I can not link here
> 
> Believer's Boon, is running afoul of the main issue and that is gaining the magic domain which Hei Feng goes not have listed as a domain and I would need to request the alteration of the feat to allow it by removing the words granted by your deity
> ...


What I was meaning was take Magic as one of your two Separatist domains and then use Believers' Boon to take whatever the other domain you wanted was (eg Air + Magic as your Separatist choices and Water as your Believers' Boon choice).  I have to admit I'm not entirely sure what it is you're trying to do and how having an extra spell as a 1st-level caster is critical to it.




> Considering alternate builds/characters. Can I do something like...
> 
> Class A//Freelancer (grabbing features from Class A) to almost gestalt a class with itself?


No, standard gestalt rules apply.




> Would it be possible to adjust Beastmaster's Beastlord feature to switch around animals and vermin in priority, so it makes vermin friendly and animals indifferent rather than the other way around (plants/other animal-intelligence creatures being unaffected by the switch)? Might try to put together a Herbalist (Entomologist)//Hunter (Beastmaster), grabbing a vermin companion through the Beastmastery sphere with Broad Skills, with the overall thing of being the bug guy (naturally there'd still be the normal herbalist plants on that side and the rest of Beastmastery working on non-vermin and the benefits of any other spheres I pick up on the other side, but bugs would be his _thing_, if you see my meaning). That or just going with chi. I am not a decisive person.


Sure.

----------


## samduke

@Llyarden

edited 
i see what your saying with separatist

Air Domain
Granted Power Lightning Arc (Sp) 1stobscuring mist
Weather Domain
Granted Power Storm Burst (Sp) 1stobscuring mist
Magic Domain
Granted Power Hand of the Acolyte (Su) 1stidentify

its more about the domain granted power than the spells

Believers Boon has 1 issue that bothers me, 
You can use the 1st-level domain ability that clerics of that domain can use a number of times per day, but you can use it only once per day
it defeats the purpose for having the domain ability at all if its only useable 1/day

sigh... Think I will abandon the idea as there seems to be no workable work around

----------


## MagneticDragon

> From an OOC standpoint, the intent was to encourage a _mechanically_ unusual playstyle (because having a character that doesn't fit the traditional D&D party in-universe is as simple as refluffing it)


If you do not mind, I seek further clarification on what, precisely, you are looking for in regards to this encouragement. 

For example. The Evolutionist class, based on my brief overview of the class, comes across as acting similar to an Alteration Sphere user, in that they bring Natural Attacks to the table, and focus on using the 'pounce' ability each turn to charge and land as many attacks as possible. While this uses a 3.5 Homebrew Class, the playstyle itself is simple and straightforward. Therefore, I would believe that this type of combat style would be disallowed the game, even if the content is unusual, is this a correct assumption?

Then, you specifically called out Spheres material as content you would rather wish to avoid. Focusing more on Spheres of Might, does that mean you believe the attack-action focus, as well as the combat maneuvers in the base game, are not mechanically unusual enough? One could argue that the Blacksmith's Thunderous Blows, its focus on Sunder and its ability to Sunder Natural Weapons & Armour is rather unusual, yet that is a very basic Spheres of Might Material. What about the Patrol Package of the Guardian Sphere, setting up a zone of protection for allies, and a zone of danger for your enemies? Or how about the Alchemy Sphere and Trap Sphere? They both operate in very different ways from your traditional Pathfinder Core classes, yet from what I have seen, you wish for people to use resources outside of the norm when it comes to 3PP material. 

And what about Path of War? From what I learned, Path of War is a 3PP version of 3.5's Tome of Battle, which was introduced as a way of giving Martial Characters more options and capabilities in combat that are not simple 'try and full attack as much as possible'. Are they not, from their very creation, 'mechanically unusual'? The maneuver system is very unique and having to work though it, reading, using and refreshing maneuvers is quite a challenge from what could be considered core Pathfinder playstyles, so how come they were called out as well?

Admittedly, you did say if creative playstyles are allowed via core material, then you would find this acceptable. But even this does not clarify what a 'creative playstyle' would _be_. Which is what this question is about. How can I define something as 'creative'? What do I need to try and avoid exactly?

----------


## thethird

> I don't really know much about them other than having heard them mentioned.


They are both on the strong side, judging by other's people's request it might be a good idea refraining on using them. As it would push things into optimization (even if I just "fool around" with 21 lvls it's hard to not optimize)




> For an opinion from the peanut gallery (don't have links to immediate hand, so I'll leave that to someone else): 
> Mythos classes are a set of quite high-powered classes that IIRC orginated out of tackling the caster/martial divide by making martials capable of over the top, Exalted-style deeds, and has gone on from there to all kinds of wild fun stuff. Not sure how well it plays with non-mythos stuff, though.


As Volthawk said mythos classes are powerful, balancing towards a higher of narrative agency that isn't necessarily available for non tier one classes.

The mythos system classes can use mythos points each class has different ways of getting those (most trade wealth for them) to buy abilities, thus being pretty modular. Each class follows particular themes. 

In particular I was considering Setgetzen and Kreikiri. The first is focused on joining creatures together (using a collective), the second is focused on improving creatures (mad scientist style, and borrows from ozodrin and/or evolutionist).

Both together would basically allow to create a lot of bodies while at the same time joining them all together into a hive mind.




> Gramarie is this wild and glorious system that's pretty much magitech for engineering nerds, I suppose. A lot of focus on linking together different machines from different fields of magitech (engines, biotech, pocket dimensions, etc) to make all kinds of crazy contraptions and make traditional fantasy settings cry. Not sure how well it works as something one person does in a group, though, only ever used it in a game where everyone was one and had their own focuses.


Gramarie has several majors (like wizard schools) personally I always like playing with heuristicism which is the programming focused discipline. At this level it's fairly easy to create exotic intelligences (artificial intelligences) that become capable of supplying the knowledge in the other disciplines and automate stuff.

Combined both setgetzen/kreikiri mythos and heuristicism would generate a lot of bodies on remote control. My idea was playing someone that has ended trapped inside an unknown dungeon for an unknown amount of time and now is sending bodies outside trying to investigate and learn. Like one of those typical tropes in which someone is thrown into a hell difficulty dungeon and given for dead but becomes the owner of the dungeon/real powerful.

----------


## Llyarden

> If you do not mind, I seek further clarification on what, precisely, you are looking for in regards to this encouragement. 
> 
> For example. The Evolutionist class, based on my brief overview of the class, comes across as acting similar to an Alteration Sphere user, in that they bring Natural Attacks to the table, and focus on using the 'pounce' ability each turn to charge and land as many attacks as possible. While this uses a 3.5 Homebrew Class, the playstyle itself is simple and straightforward. Therefore, I would believe that this type of combat style would be disallowed the game, even if the content is unusual, is this a correct assumption?
> 
> Then, you specifically called out Spheres material as content you would rather wish to avoid. Focusing more on Spheres of Might, does that mean you believe the attack-action focus, as well as the combat maneuvers in the base game, are not mechanically unusual enough? One could argue that the Blacksmith's Thunderous Blows, its focus on Sunder and its ability to Sunder Natural Weapons & Armour is rather unusual, yet that is a very basic Spheres of Might Material. What about the Patrol Package of the Guardian Sphere, setting up a zone of protection for allies, and a zone of danger for your enemies? Or how about the Alchemy Sphere and Trap Sphere? They both operate in very different ways from your traditional Pathfinder Core classes, yet from what I have seen, you wish for people to use resources outside of the norm when it comes to 3PP material. 
> 
> And what about Path of War? From what I learned, Path of War is a 3PP version of 3.5's Tome of Battle, which was introduced as a way of giving Martial Characters more options and capabilities in combat that are not simple 'try and full attack as much as possible'. Are they not, from their very creation, 'mechanically unusual'? The maneuver system is very unique and having to work though it, reading, using and refreshing maneuvers is quite a challenge from what could be considered core Pathfinder playstyles, so how come they were called out as well?
> 
> Admittedly, you did say if creative playstyles are allowed via core material, then you would find this acceptable. But even this does not clarify what a 'creative playstyle' would _be_. Which is what this question is about. How can I define something as 'creative'? What do I need to try and avoid exactly?


If this was a world where 3pp material was very rarely allowed, then yes, the way PoW and Spheres work would be unusual enough on their own.  But as it is, so many games allow one or both that you're just as likely to see someone initiating maneuvers as you are someone using Thunderous Blows/Patrol/formulae/etc as you are just a pure Paizo character attacking.  Possibly even more likely to see the 3pp stuff than the Paizo stuff.

If I had to simplify what I want down, at the risk of excluding builds that I would consider perfectly interesting (such as the cloak-tripping build that was mentioned earlier in this thread), then it would be a character who either:
- Has a usual combat routine that is something other than than 'I cast a spell/sphere effect/power/veil ability'/'I initiate a maneuver'/'I take an attack action/full attack action'
- Or who does do one of the above, but has something else mixed in that makes it more dynamic.  The Striker's Tension and the Mystic's Animus would be examples of something that makes attack actions and maneuvers (respectively) more dynamic, as would Squid's 3pp stuff for spherecasting that turns it into a card game.

Bear in mind that I'm making my decisions on material people ask for on the basis of whether they're completely overpowered or not, not on the basis of whether it will do something interesting on its own.




> They are both on the strong side, judging by other's people's request it might be a good idea refraining on using them. As it would push things into optimization (even if I just "fool around" with 21 lvls it's hard to not optimize)
> 
> As Volthawk said mythos classes are powerful, balancing towards a higher of narrative agency that isn't necessarily available for non tier one classes.
> 
> The mythos system classes can use mythos points each class has different ways of getting those (most trade wealth for them) to buy abilities, thus being pretty modular. Each class follows particular themes. 
> 
> In particular I was considering Setgetzen and Kreikiri. The first is focused on joining creatures together (using a collective), the second is focused on improving creatures (mad scientist style, and borrows from ozodrin and/or evolutionist).
> 
> Both together would basically allow to create a lot of bodies while at the same time joining them all together into a hive mind.
> ...


If you want to use them (and think you can without ending up with something crazy overpowered I guess) then feel free to use the mythos/gramarie stuff.  Although you'll have to suggest some means by which you can decide a reasonable value for how many setgetzen mythos points and kreikiri graft points you've accumulated, because as far as I can see there's no mechanical limit to those.

----------


## Hamste

Interested, need to figure out a really weird build.

----------


## samduke

@Llyarden

would it be possible for you to put a sample monster for us to use as a benchmark for (optimization or lack thereof) numbers



edit

new build stub requires I request from 3.5 the Factotum there is no PF version or anything close to it that I have seen


Half-Elf
Sentinel 21
Factotum 3/Swashbuckler 8/Kensai/Bladebound Magus 10

----------


## Volthawk

Since Herbalism isn't going anywhere in my brain and it turns out that doubling up on Chi classes is probably too strong: If I take two Herbalism classes, do their Find Herbs rolls and Earthernware Jars stack, like spellcasting from different classes, or not, like mundane class features? Personally feel like the former makes sense, since this is basically a spellcasting system, but I can see the argument for them not.

----------


## Da'Shain

Highly interested!  My first instinct is to try a Cruoroclast coupled with a Legendary Kineticist who focuses on the Viscera/Mind elements.  Her gimmick would be the "cast from hit points" style and getting stronger in many ways when she's lower on HP, as a high risk/high reward playstyle (most likely with the Mystical Kineticist archetype to focus more on esoteric powers than on blasting like normal Kineticists).  Not sure if that fits the variety you're looking for, and there might be a better fit for my concept than Kineticist; I'll keep looking at other 3pp classes for inspiration.

----------


## Shiro_Nogard

> The various ffd20 classes are allowed.
> 
> 
> 
> No pre-game crafting.  Custom items I might be willing to consider.


Great!!
On the craft note. How about magical wonderous tattoos? Are they fine? Should I run them by you first?

----------


## Hamste

Requests: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/gener...eamed-secrets/

Removal of the worship requirement (Could worship the great old one but would be weird)


https://aonprd.com/PrestigeClassesDi...tness%20Seeker

Removal of the elf requirement for Brightness Seeker (Or allow someone reincarnated as an elf to qualify for the class)



Character concept: A druid that is effectively a red shirt, everything is about getting hit and then punishing the enemy right back for doing it. Their abilities are focused around not dying when getting hit and doing things when hit (It's why I am looking at things like dreamed secrets, as druids have the best way to survive death but almost no spells to punish getting hit)

It's using a very specific prestige class-Archetype combo to make a guy that just comes back when ever they die. I have no clue if there is enough on hit/on death effects to make it work but interested in trying.

----------


## MagneticDragon

> If this was a world where 3pp material was very rarely allowed, then yes, the way PoW and Spheres work would be unusual enough on their own.  But as it is, so many games allow one or both that you're just as likely to see someone initiating maneuvers as you are someone using Thunderous Blows/Patrol/formulae/etc as you are just a pure Paizo character attacking.  Possibly even more likely to see the 3pp stuff than the Paizo stuff.
> 
> If I had to simplify what I want down, at the risk of excluding builds that I would consider perfectly interesting (such as the cloak-tripping build that was mentioned earlier in this thread), then it would be a character who either:
> - Has a usual combat routine that is something other than than 'I cast a spell/sphere effect/power/veil ability'/'I initiate a maneuver'/'I take an attack action/full attack action'
> - Or who does do one of the above, but has something else mixed in that makes it more dynamic.  The Striker's Tension and the Mystic's Animus would be examples of something that makes attack actions and maneuvers (respectively) more dynamic, as would Squid's 3pp stuff for spherecasting that turns it into a card game.
> 
> Bear in mind that I'm making my decisions on material people ask for on the basis of whether they're completely overpowered or not, not on the basis of whether it will do something interesting on its own.


Hmmm... so if I am understanding the situation correctly. Using Spheres of Might's Alchemy Sphere would be seen as rather normal, due to the fact it is folded into Spheres directly, as you yourself pointed out. But using the _standard_ Alchemical Fire that I legitimately have to spend money to craft and make, only it has been buffed up and improved through class features such as the Tall Tale's Craft: Alchemy selection would potentially be more acceptable? Or would the overlap be too strong for your preferences? 

Furthermore, if I am understanding the simplification correctly... you would prefer our characters to function as toolboxes, dynamic toolboxes, rather than having a set combat routine? And when I say toolboxes, I would not mean something like 'I throw the ice forumlae' vs 'I throw the acid forumale' vs 'I throw the wall creating forumuale', as they are all, in the end, Sphere Abilities. But more... 'I use X points in this pool to use Y ability' vs 'I'm going to use this per day ability here' vs 'I throw the ice forumale'... correct?

Sorry if I am misunderstanding you, but I am simply trying to understand what you are looking for and what type of character I should make exactly.

----------


## Thunder999

If the setting is modern, what does that mean for firearms?

----------


## Darius Vibrtrar

telflammar-shadowlord

Instead of the monk of the long death I was considering this. The issue is that you can "buy" a level adjustment +1 template to qualify for this prestiege. 

How would that effect character creation for your game?

----------


## Lord Raziere

ok here is my character idea, my pitch:
Phantom Thief, Freemind, Gargoyle as race, and the inspiration will be.....Carmen Sandiego.

----------


## Thokk_Smash

I would also like to request the Exarch of the Emerald Shield:  https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...9#post12138519

Kekkaishi in DnD, if youve ever seen Kekkaishi.

----------


## Dakrsidder

> Paragon is fine.  I'd be fine with the Awakened Dreamer's capstones if the points didn't immediately refresh when the spell had expired, so if you want to nerf it so your Dream Points are more limited that would also work.


In that case, it could refresh one point per round so that only 1 or 2 effects might go off per combat, have a limit to the maximum Dream Points that can be obtained per day, such as 3-5x Lucid Dreaming ranks, or both

----------


## Argus0

Very interesting, I'd like to go with the idea of a assistant/packmule-type character that has taken his abilities to their extreme

Couple things that might make sense for him:

Malefex, specifically with the Rustpicker archetype
Henchling

And then Voyager (with Metronome to avoid the parallel initiative headache) from DSP Psionics to cover the assistant portion of things

----------


## GentlemanVoodoo

Got a few questions/idea on this since you are looking at more unusual classes or takes on classes. Not fully committed to an idea but just seeing what things might or might not be allowed.

1. Any issue with using Words of Power rules (Ultimate Magic pg. 160)?

2. Any issues with the use of Occult Rituals (Occult Adventures pg. 208)?

3. Since it seems like the FFd20 classes are allowed does this mean then the Freelancer is acceptable? And would the rules for this be allowed to purchase Pathfinder class abilities, provided a theme can be made and subject to approval?

 For example, if I was building a tarot using character, perhaps purchasing such Pathfinder abilities like Trump Card (Harrowed Society Student Arcanist) or Deadly Dealer (Catormancer Witch).

----------


## Llyarden

> @Llyarden
> 
> would it be possible for you to put a sample monster for us to use as a benchmark for (optimization or lack thereof) numbers
> 
> 
> 
> edit
> 
> new build stub requires I request from 3.5 the Factotum there is no PF version or anything close to it that I have seen
> ...


I will try to find an appropriate monster, but I don't have a massive amount of time available at the moment because of holidays and I will prioritise replying to build questions without which people can't do their build.

As for the factotum, unfortunately I have no idea what it is or what it does.




> Since Herbalism isn't going anywhere in my brain and it turns out that doubling up on Chi classes is probably too strong: If I take two Herbalism classes, do their Find Herbs rolls and Earthernware Jars stack, like spellcasting from different classes, or not, like mundane class features? Personally feel like the former makes sense, since this is basically a spellcasting system, but I can see the argument for them not.


I would say you get both, like spells - although like spells you would have to keep track of them separately as well.




> Highly interested!  My first instinct is to try a Cruoroclast coupled with a Legendary Kineticist who focuses on the Viscera/Mind elements.  Her gimmick would be the "cast from hit points" style and getting stronger in many ways when she's lower on HP, as a high risk/high reward playstyle (most likely with the Mystical Kineticist archetype to focus more on esoteric powers than on blasting like normal Kineticists).  Not sure if that fits the variety you're looking for, and there might be a better fit for my concept than Kineticist; I'll keep looking at other 3pp classes for inspiration.


Cruoroclast is approved.




> Great!!
> On the craft note. How about magical wonderous tattoos? Are they fine? Should I run them by you first?


I'm not quite sure what you mean - premade Paizo tattoos are fine; if it's something else then yeah ask.




> Requests: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/gener...eamed-secrets/
> 
> Removal of the worship requirement (Could worship the great old one but would be weird)
> 
> https://aonprd.com/PrestigeClassesDi...tness%20Seeker
> 
> Removal of the elf requirement for Brightness Seeker (Or allow someone reincarnated as an elf to qualify for the class)
> 
> Character concept: A druid that is effectively a red shirt, everything is about getting hit and then punishing the enemy right back for doing it. Their abilities are focused around not dying when getting hit and doing things when hit (It's why I am looking at things like dreamed secrets, as druids have the best way to survive death but almost no spells to punish getting hit)
> ...


Both are fine.




> Hmmm... so if I am understanding the situation correctly. Using Spheres of Might's Alchemy Sphere would be seen as rather normal, due to the fact it is folded into Spheres directly, as you yourself pointed out. But using the _standard_ Alchemical Fire that I legitimately have to spend money to craft and make, only it has been buffed up and improved through class features such as the Tall Tale's Craft: Alchemy selection would potentially be more acceptable? Or would the overlap be too strong for your preferences? 
> 
> Furthermore, if I am understanding the simplification correctly... you would prefer our characters to function as toolboxes, dynamic toolboxes, rather than having a set combat routine? And when I say toolboxes, I would not mean something like 'I throw the ice forumlae' vs 'I throw the acid forumale' vs 'I throw the wall creating forumuale', as they are all, in the end, Sphere Abilities. But more... 'I use X points in this pool to use Y ability' vs 'I'm going to use this per day ability here' vs 'I throw the ice forumale'... correct?
> 
> Sorry if I am misunderstanding you, but I am simply trying to understand what you are looking for and what type of character I should make exactly.


The latter would be closer to what I would want.  Or something like 'I throw the ice formulae, and since I have X points in this pool it gets Y bonus effect' where the pool is something like Tension that goes up and down (which isn't a great example because Tension doesn't really work with formulae and I don't think that's really something that can be replicated in Spheres, but hopefully you get the idea.)




> If the setting is modern, what does that mean for firearms?


Ah, I forgot to include that in the original post.  Modern technology does not work in the Otherworld (even technology that doesn't rely on external connections, such as a battery-operated torch), and even anything machine-made will start to degrade upon exposure (which includes exposure to Otherworld creatures in the real world); anyone with Otherworld power themselves can protect their own clothes and the like, but vehicles can be badly damaged by proximity to - or contact with - an otherworld creature.  Similarly, modern weaponry doesn't have any effect on Otherworld creatures or the environs of Dungeons (unless someone has a specific ability to boost it so it does).




> ok here is my character idea, my pitch:
> Phantom Thief, Freemind, Gargoyle as race, and the inspiration will be.....Carmen Sandiego.


Phantom Thief and Freemind are both approved.




> I would also like to request the Exarch of the Emerald Shield:  https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...9#post12138519
> 
> Kekkaishi in DnD, if youve ever seen Kekkaishi.


I haven't seen it, no.  This is a cool class but has some slightly odd/poorly-defined mechanics in places, so I'm willing to allow it but it might get some changes applied mid-game if you get in.

*Argus0* the forum's quote system is being _real_ funky and I can't quote your post, but to answer it, Malafex, Henchling and Voyager are all allowed, as are the archetypes.

*GentlemanVoodoo* as above the quotes are broken, but words of power and occult rituals are both available, freelancer (and ffd20 more widely) is allowed.

----------


## Volthawk

> I would say you get both, like spells - although like spells you would have to keep track of them separately as well.


Ah, okay. So if, say, I went Herbalist//Gourmend I'd only be able to put plants gathered by Herbalist into my jars from Herbalist levels, and compresses couldn't use Gourmend-gathered plants (and vice versa for Gourmend jars and class features), and archetypes of one class altering Find Herbs wouldn't affect the other class' rolls? That's fine, sure.

----------


## Yas392

Requesting Mime and Mime.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Hellfire014

> If this was a world where 3pp material was very rarely allowed, then yes, the way PoW and Spheres work would be unusual enough on their own.  But as it is, so many games allow one or both that you're just as likely to see someone initiating maneuvers as you are someone using Thunderous Blows/Patrol/formulae/etc as you are just a pure Paizo character attacking.  Possibly even more likely to see the 3pp stuff than the Paizo stuff.
> 
> If I had to simplify what I want down, at the risk of excluding builds that I would consider perfectly interesting (such as the cloak-tripping build that was mentioned earlier in this thread), then it would be a character who either:
> - Has a usual combat routine that is something other than than 'I cast a spell/sphere effect/power/veil ability'/'I initiate a maneuver'/'I take an attack action/full attack action'
> - Or who does do one of the above, but has something else mixed in that makes it more dynamic.  The Striker's Tension and the Mystic's Animus would be examples of something that makes attack actions and maneuvers (respectively) more dynamic, as would Squid's 3pp stuff for spherecasting that turns it into a card game.
> 
> Bear in mind that I'm making my decisions on material people ask for on the basis of whether they're completely overpowered or not, not on the basis of whether it will do something interesting on its own.


Things I intend to do with my character:
1) Frostweaver Bloomtender Incanter has its own little "minigame" with the Frost Motes and Ice Charms, not sure if thats really enough.
2) The aforementioned stealing of abilities.

The card casting tradition mechanic looks interesting, but I'm not sure how that would really translate to pbp.

Freelancer was a mistake, I think I can squeeze in both Spellvampire Shifter and Prodigy on one side if I went that route. Insert Spongebob "I Don't Need It" meme here.




> Ah, I forgot to include that in the original post.  Modern technology does not work in the Otherworld (even technology that doesn't rely on external connections, such as a battery-operated torch), and even anything machine-made will start to degrade upon exposure (which includes exposure to Otherworld creatures in the real world); anyone with Otherworld power themselves can protect their own clothes and the like, but vehicles can be badly damaged by proximity to - or contact with - an otherworld creature.  Similarly, modern weaponry doesn't have any effect on Otherworld creatures or the environs of Dungeons (unless someone has a specific ability to boost it so it does).


Was definitely getting some World's Fastest Level Up! vibes from the OP, now seeing some Dungeon Battle Royale, too.

----------


## Volthawk

> The card casting tradition mechanic looks interesting, but I'm not sure how that would really translate to pbp.


I was thinking about this (had the Strange Magic card caster primarily in mind, but it still applies here I think), since one of these setups might work as the other side of my gestalt if double herbalism doesn't look good (keeps the chaotic vibes going), and I guess it'd have to be some setup involving progressively smaller dice rolls to represent drawing random cards from the deck and the deck getting smaller as you go (so drawing 3 cards from a 15-card deck would be a roll of d15, d14 and d13, for instance).

----------


## Thunder999

So I'm currently thinking I'll pair Echo with Mystic and grab Fools Errand and Shattered Mirror for even more duplicating/stealing of other creature's abilities.

----------


## samduke

> I will try to find an appropriate monster, but I don't have a massive amount of time available at the moment because of holidays and I will prioritize replying to build questions without which people can't do their build.
> 
> As for the factotum, unfortunately I have no idea what it is or what it does.


edited 

see below

----------


## greenpotato

Gonna build around this and stacking as much coup de grace stuff. Gonna fight by slitting her own throat for massive damage and cause a save or die.
Will need contingent ways to ressurect as slitting your own throat will probably not always go to plan.

----------


## Dakrsidder

> and probably move onto a different idea if Factotum is a firm no.


In case Factotum isnt allowed, someone requested Grods Rogue, which was approved, and is based on the Factotum, so maybe thatd work

----------


## Chambers

> Gonna build around this and stacking as much coup de grace stuff. Gonna fight by slitting her own throat for massive damage and cause a save or die.
> Will need contingent ways to ressurect as slitting your own throat will probably not always go to plan.


Clones to the rescue? Is there a pathfinder version of Body Outside Body you could use for your self-coup de gracing body doubles?

----------


## greenpotato

> Clones to the rescue? Is there a pathfinder version of Body Outside Body you could use for your self-coup de gracing body doubles?


Nah, I don't wanna cop out with a clone. I want to slit my own throat

----------


## Chambers

> Nah, I don't wanna cop out with a clone. I want to slit my own throat


Next idea is to have a familiar with the Resuscitate Life talents that let them Cure/Invigorate a dead person, to bring you back to life. Gonna take a lot of temp negative levels though.

----------


## samduke

> In case Factotum isnt allowed, someone requested Grods Rogue, which was approved, and is based on the Factotum, so maybe thatd work


ohh Grods Rogue, I missed that somewhere it does work

----------


## Denomar

It may perhaps be a good idea to clarify terms.

I'm perfectly fine to try and create a character for a game with "low optimization."  But, it would be nice to know exactly what that means.  For some people high optimization would be something like a Rajah Hedgewitch using Karmic Strike and various spells to have 5241600 effective hit points, but not have any sort of significant damage output in turn.  They generally won't die, but generally won't solve the problem of the encounter either.

In other games high optimization is something like a wizard who uses divination magics to find out what the next encounter is before it happens and prepares spells that nullify the encounter completely, or one who forces every monster that is fought to be considered dazed, nauseated, stunned, with no physical ability scores above one and upside down for good measure.

By the same token a fighter hitting a target for a thousand damage will probably kill what he hits but may be considered useless outside of situations where punching the thing isn't a viable solution.

==

I'm alright with using unusual classes.  But you are asking us to make 21st level gestalt characters with 1st tier mythic.  We're already unavoidably strong in quite a few respects.  Should we assume that some mythic abilities like mythic power attack or an archmages' wild arcana are just unavailable for strength reasons?

----------


## Darius Vibrtrar

Durren of the Shadow

Welp, I still need to pick traits, and the Mythic level, but otherwise.... 98% done

----------


## Llyarden

> Requesting Mime and Mime.


Double Mime is approved.




> It may perhaps be a good idea to clarify terms.
> 
> I'm perfectly fine to try and create a character for a game with "low optimization."  But, it would be nice to know exactly what that means.  For some people high optimization would be something like a Rajah Hedgewitch using Karmic Strike and various spells to have 5241600 effective hit points, but not have any sort of significant damage output in turn.  They generally won't die, but generally won't solve the problem of the encounter either.
> 
> In other games high optimization is something like a wizard who uses divination magics to find out what the next encounter is before it happens and prepares spells that nullify the encounter completely, or one who forces every monster that is fought to be considered dazed, nauseated, stunned, with no physical ability scores above one and upside down for good measure.
> 
> By the same token a fighter hitting a target for a thousand damage will probably kill what he hits but may be considered useless outside of situations where punching the thing isn't a viable solution.
> 
> ==
> ...


Yeah, I'm aware this is an issue.  I think the only real advice I can give is to avoid 'auto win' designs (such as the 'completely neutralise an encounter with divination' wizard or the 'disable every monster automatically' build).  No matter what there will have to be a bit of adjustment done once the players are selected, but the fighter that deals a thousand damage and the rajah with hundreds of thousands of hitpoints are a lot easier for their players to adjust to match the power level of the thousand PCs than a character whose build is tailored around an 'auto win' design.

Mythic Power Attack and Wild Arcana are fine to use, but like anything else they need to be used judiciously and not just thrown on because the option is there; for some players they might be a necessary step to bring their characters up to par with others', but for others they might send their power level into the stratosphere.

----------


## AvatarVecna

The crafter is probably waaaaay too much and also just ends up doing typical beatstick/caster nonsense so I'm gonna go a different direction: Daredevil//Chaos, fully randomized.

----------


## paradox26

Coincidence there, as I was going Chaos build too. Not sure what the other side will be. But there is enough flexibility that we can both go Chaos Cultist builds and not step on each other's toes.

EDIT: Quick question. Are you planning on going as far as Demon Princess with it? They are Huge sized and not very humanoid looking, though there are ways of overcoming that. I will probably go with that, just to fill out the entire progression.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Coincidence there, as I was going Chaos build too. Not sure what the other side will be. But there is enough flexibility that we can both go Chaos Cultist builds and not step on each other's toes.
> 
> EDIT: Quick question. Are you planning on going as far as Demon Princess with it? They are Huge sized and not very humanoid looking, though there are ways of overcoming that. I will probably go with that, just to fill out the entire progression.


Difficult to say I won't be toe-stepping, but I'm hoping to avoid it, and it's certainly versatile enough that it shouldn't be an issue. Mine will be a "directed randomness" due to Daredevil, but still.

I'm planning on DP, yes. Demon Princess doesn't make you Huge, it makes you two sizes bigger. It's an important distinction. Starting small can leave you Large, and the low-end of large is just the high end of medium. Human-ish enough that it should be feasible. Oslecamo also has feats for suppressing size-changing stuff. Heck, maybe there's a tiny race in PF somewhere.

As far as not looking particularly humanoid, that's a problem basically any Chaos or Evolutionist build is gonna run into: within the fluff, there's quite a lot of stuff that's supposed to change how you look in rather significant ways, but you can also just kinda handwave it away for the most part. There's also an early Mutation (for chaos at least) called "Illusion Of Normality" where regardless of what your mutations make you look like, you appear to be somewhere normal-ish; I don't recall if it fools True Seeing or not, I know some Chaos stuff does, but idk if that does without checking. So anyway that's an option even if we're not allowed to handwave away the body horror aspects.

----------


## AvatarVecna

Oh also since you're planning on taking Chaos all the way through, I'll give you a heads up and recommend at least considering the 3.5 epic feat "Additional Magic Item Space". There's a lot of really good items Chaos can give you, particularly armor sets, that can't normally be worn simultaneously. Having your one epic feat grant you an extra armor slot, to stack the two armor's special properties, could very well be a godsend.

EDIT: Oh yeah and one of the oslecamo feats would let you pick additional gifts, and given how everything's fluffed, you can probably count it as a racial feat? Which could combine well with Evolutionist, which has a mutation for granting bonus feats, and another mutation for granting bonus racial feats. That's probably what I would take if this was tristalt.

----------


## MagneticDragon

> The latter would be closer to what I would want.  Or something like 'I throw the ice formulae, and since I have X points in this pool it gets Y bonus effect' where the pool is something like Tension that goes up and down (which isn't a great example because Tension doesn't really work with formulae and I don't think that's really something that can be replicated in Spheres, but hopefully you get the idea.)


Tension Pools, or a similar mechanic, are rather hard to come by. So it is fortunate then, that the Legendary Magus  has its 'Potential Pool' to work with, is it not? And luckily for me, the Sublime Warmage from Lost Sphere's Publishing should still be a viable addition to the L.Magus, assuming you would let me use Potential Points in place of the 2 points from the Arcane Pool for the 'Martial Spellstrike' arcana. Preferably 1 point for the 2 Arcane Pool points, but I can go for a 1:1 ratio if you prefer.

Now then, should I go Striker/Magus, Kineticist/Magus, or mix things up further? Decisions, decisions...

----------


## paradox26

Thanks for the tips and ideas, AvatarVecna. I always think in terms of my character being human based, so two size increases would be Huge. I didn't even consider a small race. I was going to go Evolutionist on the second side, but have been unsure of that. I might go something a bit more exotic instead. Between Spheres of Origin and Oaths, there isn't a lot that I can't get without going Evolutionist.

----------


## AvatarVecna

I need some help interpreting a bit of Freelancer, in a way that might warrant a DM ruling on the subject.




> Skills: 4/level. 4 Starting Class Skills. Increasing skill points costs 2 JP per 2 skill points, (max of 10). Increasing the number of Class Skills costs 2 JP per 1 Class Skill, (max of 10).


What does "max of 10" mean in this context? I'm assuming the intention is to have the same reading for both instances, so this is the three interpretations:

1) "Max of 10" is a cap on the final total. So I start at 4 skill points/level, and can increase that to 10 skill points/level by spending 6 JP. Similarly, I start at 4 class skills, and can increase that to 10 class skills, which costs 12 JP.

2) "Max of 10" is a cap on the increase. So I start at 4 skill points/level, and can increase that by 10, for a total of 14 skill points/level (costing 10 JP). Similarly, I start at 4 class skills, and can increase that to 14 class skills, which costs 20 JP.

3) "Max of 10" is a cap on the expenditure. So I start at 4 skill points/level, and can spend 10 JP improving that, for a total of 14 skill points/level. Similarly, I start at 4 class skills, and can spend 10 JP improving that, for a total of 9 class skills.

----------


## samduke

@Llyarden
RE: feats and classes that grant bonus feats

If we have a class that grants a feat OR gains the benefits of the feat,  Then gain another class that grants the exact same feat OR gains the benefits of the exact same feat

Can we replace the duplicate feat with a similar style feat (IE Combat for Combat)?

----------


## Volthawk

For reference, I've thought it over some more, had a look at dual-herbalism, and in the end I'm making a Herbalist//Alchemist (Essentialist), with the card casting magical tradition. Mechanically, the card casting spheres are probably going to do the most work, but have the various complications and inconsistencies involved with that drawback, so herbalism provides a semi-random (slightly controllable with jars, and determined at the start of the day so consistent mid-encounter) set of consistent options to fall back on, and can someones allow for strong plays in and of themselves. Fluffwise, it's all about the plants, probably fluffing the card casting as the herbs and concoctions involved in the sphere casting being even more unreliable and awkward than herbalism plants, affected by various environmental factors, so only some mixtures or plants will be active at any given time.

----------


## greenpotato

Its easy to understand why Erica doesn't fit within the S team. Most of it due to the PR nightmare, everyone thinks that its cool that the batman scares the baddies in the comics, but to actually _see_ an adventurer whose power is fear is another thing entirely. And when she isn't inflicting heart stopping otherwordly terror in all who lay eyes upon her she is performing her other hard to justify party trick; slicing her own throat. Only she doesn't die, you do. Weird.
Very hard to turn that into a line of cereals. 
Her hero handle isn't very imaginative either; "Gore".
At least it's descriptive of what is left of the dungeons she graces. 


Went with the coup de grace build and then stacked on all of the intimidate things I could find. Also gonna run with all the linnorm death curses for when she gets killed. 
Still a ways to go, got to figure out all her casting which will probably just be for utility, and also mythic. 
Also didn't leave much room for any contingent resurrection.

----------


## Hamste

Dang, missed the Linnorm death curses when I was making my sacrificial lamb build. Probably still would have went with paladin over it but those are some nice death effects.

----------


## Lord Foul

Something unusual, recommended only one "staple class" eh?
hm.

I see two fun options A pyromaniacal, egotistical, Gnoll who wants to be a hero mostly because she wants people to praise her and she can't conceptualize the possibility of failure 
The second is a living sword who deeply wishes to be wielded by a true hero.  They claim to be the sword of promised victory, and that long as they were true and just, their wilelder could never be defeated in single combat.

The first is a fun character I've built but not gotten the chance to really flex (was in a game that lasted for like 2 levels in a monster hunter inspired game
She was a Half succubus gnoll Oracle (snake mystery, feral soul archetype) CN (borderline CG) high priestess of Lamashtu.  I've re-imagined her in gestalt a couple times but not gotten approval for her.  I've considered Oracle/Ageis (aberrant), Oracle/Soulknife (rage blade, deadly fist), Mystic (Aurora Soul), 


need to ask for approval for classes before I get to building, since I need a "non standard" setup.

grapple focused, rage possessing oracle is already slightly odd, but I'd presumably need something more odd.  
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/bas...al-soul-oracle 
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/bas...teries/snakes/

www.necromancers-online.com/articles/FromtheWorkshop/2010/20100917.html The succubi racial class.  That should count as unusual 
Will probably take one level of Mystic (Aurora Soul) for level 21.  

for the other build the core of it is spheresofpower.wikidot.com/spirit-blade
I don't know if that's weird enough on it's own.  If it is I'll take a sphere or a PoW class as the second half.  Otherwise I'll try for something rare-er

edit: saw that you banned oscelemo's so this racial class and this "play as a sword" class are probably both also banned.  I will look into other classes unless you say otherwise

----------


## Yas392

> Dang, missed the Linnorm death curses when I was making my sacrificial lamb build. Probably still would have went with paladin over it but those are some nice death effects.


This post makes me want to try out a spell-less ritualist character.

----------


## Hamste

Here is The Endless One

*Spoiler: Concept*
Show

 Originally the concept came from the idea of a sacrificial lamb. Stacking a bunch of on damage effects and death effects on the character so when people attack me they get punished heavily. Definitely pretty low optimization (particularly seeing it is a lot of low damage attacks). The entire goal is to get up in the enemies face and force them to attack me until I die and come back.

At level 23, I want to go enduring spell which will let me get the buffs up constantly rather than having to quicken everything. I couldn't justify it at 21 due to, too many lost spell casting levels making the +6 too expensive to justify.




*Spoiler: Backstory*
Show

Synopsis of the The Immortal One's Autobiography (note, pre-dharma name has been erased from history):

Born before the Crash, I was a devout Buddhist subsistence farmer in an underdeveloped part of the world. My life was an uninteresting one, but I was content. It was idyllic, with a calm serenity about it. Then the Crash happened. It shames me, but I actually missed the start of it. I didn't have any magic at first, and neither did my neighbors. That, mixed with any sort of lack of modern communications, left me without any means to find out more about what happened. So for at least a little while after the Crash, life continued on as if nothing had happened. We were truly blessed, those more reliant on modern technology faced the folly of their ways.

The first sign something had happened was when I went to visit a neighbour after a day's hard work. There a massacre was found. The entire family was slaughtered by something with knives, and all their animals were missing. It was horrifying, but I sprang to action. I was immediately concerned about bandits, so I rushed back to gather together a hunting party. Quickly, we armed ourselves with whatever we had, old farming implements, a few bows for hunting, and even an old WWII era gun that someone's father had managed to take at some point during their service. Together, we left for the site of the murder and started tracking the mass of animals. What we found shocked us, little green men with large heads gathered around a dead lamb. We did not even consider trying to communicate, it was unclear what demons they were, but they were clearly dangerous. We took aim with our bows and the gun and fired. The ill-treated gun, weakened by the otherworld, immediately exploded blinding the poor man trying to use it, but the bows struck true. The green men, which we now know as goblins, were absolutely massacred by the barrage. Those that survived immediately tried to flee but were cut down with the farming implements as the farmers charged.

Things changed slightly after that day, but not as much as one might expect. One of the other farmers had an old radio, but attempts to contact anyone with it were met with static, and the only transport they had on hand were a few yaks one farmer kept to travel to the nearest town on the rare years that the community farmed more than was needed. We didn't know if there were any more out there, but emboldened by the ease with which we slayed them, we reorganised rather than fled. We stood our ground on our forefathers' land just like they stood their ground against the Golok. With the reoganisation we moved closer to each other, increasing the distance to our pastures and farms but making defence easier. For several months, we continued to slay various strange creatures. To this day, I am thankful for our survival, for I now know what horrors we could have faced.

Many turned to prayer in the face of these aggressive beings, including me. That's when the first magic started to appear among the farmers, often involving many rituals that those who turned away from the old ways would have said had no use. Those who idealised self-perfection and self protection got it first, including myself. Seeing it as a gift from the Buddha, I took my first Dharma name, "Healing One" as did many of the others who gained their magic. Thanks to our lack of reliance on technology and new magic, we actually held on well. The problem was our farms. We were huddled together, but hateful things destroyed our crops and killed the animals. Eventually, we decided to head out to the nearest village, where we used to sell our goods. Unburdened beyond their weapons and meagre food, we travelled with our remaining animals for a day to reach the village...it was not as lucky as we were. A ghoul had managed to get in, and the massacre led to a mass conversion. It was the first fight in which we actually lost someone. Paralyzed and torn apart by the horde. We retreated in the face of their fury, slowly killing them with our bows.

From then on, we became like our ancestors as we moved from place to place, living off the land. Our magic grew stronger, and some of the fights got easier. Then a dragon took an interest in our herd. We had never seen anything like it, but seeing it land and tear apart a sheep in a single hit made us realise we were overpowered. It grinned at us, licking its scaly lips. Me and several others decided we had to delay it, and so we charged while the children, women, and herd animals scattered. We barely delayed it more than a minute, and even that was more because it was playing with us. We all died horrific deaths, but most survived as they fled. For all its sadism the dragon wished for our herd animals more than anything. Scattered, it chased after them first over our people. A day after my death, I reincarnated. Like all beings, I have reincarnated an uncountable number of times in the cycle of Samsara, but this time was of particular importance. I came back with my memories, like the Buddha (though naturally, my transcendence did not span 91 eons like his), I could remember my past incarnation. My aching bones were replaced with a youthful new body, and I was in perfect health. I took on my second Dharma name that day, Reincarnated One. When I finally caught up to my people, they could not believe it, but my knowledge proved the truth. From that day on, I led my people. For decades, life continued on, and as the legend grew, I took on new Dharma names, ultimately ending with the "Endless One" as I sought to see the entirety of the world. Slowly, the original people grew old, and their children grew up under my unaging gaze. We found the adventurers, and my people finally joined. I still watch over them, but now they have new protectors, and I have to reach further. I have been granted great enlightenment but we live in a time of great horrors. I will fight to protect all those around me until I can't fight anymore.

----------


## Darius Vibrtrar

Durren of the Shadow

alright! done!

*Spoiler: Background*
Show

Durren, a follower of Mask, the God of Trickery, Shadows... bad luck, always working from the shadows has never been one for the spotlight.  Not being exceptional in nearly any sense other than a killing strike, he rarely was requested for missions, it was only for his occational success in assassinations that gained him an A rank. His usual success was in a supportive healer and augment caster.  

Through working as a cleric, an assassin, and various inneratives of shadow walker and he worked to gain as much power and influence as he could, but being.... less than sociable, it was difficult. He made money on the side selling poisons and traps he had made from the dungeons he had explored. 

While certainly as evil as the god he worships, Durren understands that working with others establishes a road to success which leads to wealth in the future.

----------


## samduke

Hamste
Darius Vibrtrar

just curious how you guys figured out your saves because of Fractional and Gestalt rules?

Hamste how are you getting Scar Seeker 11 in a PRC that is only 10 levels long ?

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## grumblyarcher

Let's see, unusual classes...

How about a Collective Wraith? Is that on the table?

I'll need to figure out something that meshes well with it though.

----------


## Heavenblade

Character concept - DANCE FIGHTER.

Basically, a rock-star equivalent adventurer. He is related to a much more "regular adventurer" (maybe even one of the five), but his powers were always looked down upon, because they were centered around dancing with people and befriending them.
So he became a rockstar adventurer, who wants to prove to the world that being different doesnt make you worse, anyone can make a difference, every power can contribute.

Mechanicaly speaking, this guy is an optimized tripper with the lover's tread akashic veil to charm EVERYONE 
Still working on details.

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## Hamste

> Hamste
> Darius Vibrtrar
> 
> just curious how you guys figured out your saves because of Fractional and Gestalt rules?
> 
> Hamste how are you getting Scar Seeker 11 in a PRC that is only 10 levels long ?


It's fractional and all my saves are the same (good for, bad reflex, good will) so it's just what ever a 20th level character would have for those (12,6,12). There is math I could do if isn't all the same (for example multi-classing) in which case good is +1/2 and bad is 1/3. So Chained Monk 10/rogue 10 is first the Monk saves which are 7/7/7+ the rogues fractional which is 10*.5 for reflex and 10*1/3 rounded down for fort and wisdom which is 3. So their saves would be 10/12/10. There is edge case where it gets complex (partly due to the second level not following the fractions set out in the fractional rules) but the important thing to remember is the +2 is only applied once. I would personally do this for both Gestalt sides and then which ever Gestalt side has the best of a given save would be chosen but I didn't look too deeply into it as doesn't matter for this build.

The Scar Seeker thing is a typo, I will fix. While epic prestige classes are mentioned in the epic document I am not doing an epic Scar Seeker (nor plan to request one). Its supposed to be paladin 5/scarseeker 10/ Paladin6 (and this is how I statted the character)

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## Darius Vibrtrar

> Hamste
> Darius Vibrtrar
> 
> just curious how you guys figured out your saves because of Fractional and Gestalt rules?
> 
> Hamste how are you getting Scar Seeker 11 in a PRC that is only 10 levels long ?


Very tediously.

Went level by level which gave the best save.

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## Thunder999

Is combining items ok?

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## samduke

> It's fractional and all my saves are the same


No they are not.
*Spoiler: your classes bab, saves as they should be*
Show


Reincarnated Druid 16 // Tortured Crusader Paladin 11
Brightness Seeker 5 // Scar Seeker 10
1st	+1	+2+0.33+2	
2nd	+1	+0.5	+0.33+0.5	
3rd	+1	+0.33+0.5+0.33	
4th	+1	+0.5	+0.33+0.5	
5th	+1	+0.33+0.33+0.33	
6th	+1	+0.5	+0.5	+0.5	
7th	+1	+0.33+0.33+0.33	
8th	+1	+0.5	+0.33+0.5	
9th	+1	+0.33+0.5+0.33	
10th	+1	+0.5	+0.33+0.5	
11th	+1	+0.33+0.33+0.33
12th	+1	+0.5	+0.5	+0.5	
13th	+1	+0.33+0.5+0.33	
14th	+1	+0.5	+0.33+0.5	
15th	+1	+0.33+0.5+0.33	
16th	+1	+0.5	+0.5	+0.5
1st	+1	+0.5	+0.33+0.5	
2nd	+1	+0.5	+0.5	+0.5	
3rd	+1	+0.5	+0.5	+0.5	
4th	+1	+0.5	+0.33+0.5	
5th	+1	+0.5	+0.5	+0.5

Fractional Gestalt BAB 21
Fractional Gestalt Base Saves - Fort 10.81 (10)  Ref 8.63 (8) Will 10.81 (10) <they do not round up ever>






> Very tediously.
> Went level by level which gave the best save.


I think your base bab & saves are incorrect

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## Darius Vibrtrar

Never messed with the fractional variants for saves

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## Hamste

Paladin, scar seeker, druid and brightness seeker all have good fort and will but bad reflex (Are you certain you are looking at the right prestige classes? I am unclear where you are getting the good reflex and bad fort/will from). That means they should all end up identical to a single class that has good fort and will but bad reflex.

Mathematically it's 2+.5*20=12 for fort and will, .33*20=6 for reflex. This is matches exactly with if I did 20 levels in a class with those stats (Which makes sense seeing that's what fractional saves are designed to do)

Note do not go to level 21 with saves due to epic rules. You get +1 to all saves on every third epic level with your first bonus on level 21 (I also messed up my attack bonus, It should be 20. Epic attack bonus is only every 4 levels starting on 22nd)

----------


## samduke

> Paladin, scar seeker, druid and brightness seeker all have good fort and will but bad reflex (Are you certain you are looking at the right prestige classes? I am unclear where you are getting the good reflex and bad fort/will from). That means they should all end up identical to a single class that has good fort and will but bad reflex.
> 
> Mathematically it's 2+.5*20=12 for fort and will, .33*20=6 for reflex. This is matches exactly with if I did 20 levels in a class with those stats (Which makes sense seeing that's what fractional saves are designed to do)
> 
> Note do not go to level 21 with saves due to epic rules. You get +1 to all saves on every third epic level with your first bonus on level 21 (I also messed up my attack bonus, It should be 20. Epic attack bonus is only every 4 levels starting on 22nd)


okay with the exception of level 21 I guess, 
it is not because you have all the same Good/Bad/Good saves its because of gestalt and that you have uneven class levels breaks
druid 11 // paladin 11
druid +5 // prc A+5
prc B +5 // prc A+5
where those class breaks occur the good/bad/good occur at a different rate level wise and thus produce the saves I listed as they should be, except level 21, 

at level 21 the difference would be the BAB is set at 20 and the saves each 0.5 higher
Fort 11.31 (11) Ref 9.13 (9) Will 11.31 (11) but it is accurate

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## paradox26

Is the Legendary Samurai acceptable? It has a number of different techniques and abilities which are adjusted throughout combats and the day, so it isn't a vanilla class.
Here is the link: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alt...ndary-samurai/

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## samduke

@Llyarden

the armor known as Celestial Armor 22,400 gp

I would like to break out its "Fly" on command portion cost wise to put on a different armor, as PF has a celestial plate armor listed I think this is in the realm of something that can be done.

+3 - 9,000 gp
Mithral - 4,000 gp
Chainmail - 150 gp

this then should have the ability costing (9,250 gp)
"allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day" 9,250 gp

now keeping with the whole medium armor aspect

replace chain with breastplate +200 gp
reattach Mithral +4,000 gp
add in magic armor amount desired in my case, Magic Armor +8 64,000 gp for Ghost Touch 
then add in the (9,250 gp) fly effect
attach the Nimble effect 1,000 gp

brining the armors total cost to (78,450 gp)


*Lei Korosuga* 
Half Elf - Sentinel 21 // Roguetotum 3/Swashbuckler 8/Kensai/Bladebound Magus 10

I think this is done

----------


## Hamste

> okay with the exception of level 21 I guess, 
> it is not because you have all the same Good/Bad/Good saves its because of gestalt and that you have uneven class levels breaks
> druid 11 // paladin 11
> druid +5 // prc A+5
> prc B +5 // prc A+5
> where those class breaks occur the good/bad/good occur at a different rate level wise and thus produce the saves I listed as they should be, except level 21, 
> 
> at level 21 the difference would be the BAB is set at 20 and the saves each 0.5 higher
> Fort 11.31 (11) Ref 9.13 (9) Will 11.31 (11) but it is accurate


Ok, I think I kind of follow, you are referencing a prestige class oddity? Where the class adds 1/0/1 at level 1 then adds 1/1/1 then 2/1/2 which suggests that the rate is .33/.5/.33 but after those initial levels it is .5/.33/.5?  It is a strange thing that the game designers did to try to add some balance (Seeming to forget multiclasses are thing).

Looking through the rules closer, it is actually addressed in the fractional save rule set as this: "To tell whether a prestige class has a good or poor save progression for a saving throw, look at the 1st-level saving throw bonuses it receives for that save. If the bonus is +1, it has a good save progression. If its +0, it has a poor save progression."

 So if it starts as 1 it is 1/2 throughout and if it is 0 it is 1/3rd through out ignoring the switch that happens.

----------


## Llyarden

> Tension Pools, or a similar mechanic, are rather hard to come by. So it is fortunate then, that the Legendary Magus  has its 'Potential Pool' to work with, is it not? And luckily for me, the Sublime Warmage from Lost Sphere's Publishing should still be a viable addition to the L.Magus, assuming you would let me use Potential Points in place of the 2 points from the Arcane Pool for the 'Martial Spellstrike' arcana. Preferably 1 point for the 2 Arcane Pool points, but I can go for a 1:1 ratio if you prefer.
> 
> Now then, should I go Striker/Magus, Kineticist/Magus, or mix things up further? Decisions, decisions...


Legendary Magus and Sublime Warmage are approved.




> I need some help interpreting a bit of Freelancer, in a way that might warrant a DM ruling on the subject.
> 
> What does "max of 10" mean in this context? I'm assuming the intention is to have the same reading for both instances, so this is the three interpretations:
> 
> 1) "Max of 10" is a cap on the final total. So I start at 4 skill points/level, and can increase that to 10 skill points/level by spending 6 JP. Similarly, I start at 4 class skills, and can increase that to 10 class skills, which costs 12 JP.
> 
> 2) "Max of 10" is a cap on the increase. So I start at 4 skill points/level, and can increase that by 10, for a total of 14 skill points/level (costing 10 JP). Similarly, I start at 4 class skills, and can increase that to 14 class skills, which costs 20 JP.
> 
> 3) "Max of 10" is a cap on the expenditure. So I start at 4 skill points/level, and can spend 10 JP improving that, for a total of 14 skill points/level. Similarly, I start at 4 class skills, and can spend 10 JP improving that, for a total of 9 class skills.


I would guess #1.




> @Llyarden
> RE: feats and classes that grant bonus feats
> 
> If we have a class that grants a feat OR gains the benefits of the feat,  Then gain another class that grants the exact same feat OR gains the benefits of the exact same feat
> 
> Can we replace the duplicate feat with a similar style feat (IE Combat for Combat)?


Yes.




> Something unusual, recommended only one "staple class" eh?
> hm.
> 
> I see two fun options A pyromaniacal, egotistical, Gnoll who wants to be a hero mostly because she wants people to praise her and she can't conceptualize the possibility of failure 
> The second is a living sword who deeply wishes to be wielded by a true hero.  They claim to be the sword of promised victory, and that long as they were true and just, their wilelder could never be defeated in single combat.
> 
> The first is a fun character I've built but not gotten the chance to really flex (was in a game that lasted for like 2 levels in a monster hunter inspired game
> She was a Half succubus gnoll Oracle (snake mystery, feral soul archetype) CN (borderline CG) high priestess of Lamashtu.  I've re-imagined her in gestalt a couple times but not gotten approval for her.  I've considered Oracle/Ageis (aberrant), Oracle/Soulknife (rage blade, deadly fist), Mystic (Aurora Soul), 
> 
> ...


Feral Soul oracle and the Snakes mystery are approved.  As you guessed, the succubus class and spirit blade don't fit thematically.




> @Llyarden
> 
> the armor known as Celestial Armor 22,400 gp
> 
> I would like to break out its "Fly" on command portion cost wise to put on a different armor, as PF has a celestial plate armor listed I think this is in the realm of something that can be done.


I'm willing to allow this kind of thing, however there's a small issue - celestial armour is not mithral; mithral doesn't change proficiency categories and celestial armour has a much higher max Dex than mithral chainmail.  So what you would actually have to do is take out the 'lighter armour + fly' property as a whole thing, which would cost 24000 - 9300 (+3 chainmail) = 13100gp.  So it works out to nearly the same as what you ended up with anyway.

----------


## MagneticDragon

> Legendary Magus and Sublime Warmage are approved.


Is the request to make Sublime Warmage compatible with the Legendary' Magus lack of an Arcane Pool approved? Because I would say that is a rather necessary addition honestly.

But otherwise, thank you for allowing them.

----------


## Llyarden

> Is the request to make Sublime Warmage compatible with the Legendary' Magus lack of an Arcane Pool approved? Because I would say that is a rather necessary addition honestly.
> 
> But otherwise, thank you for allowing them.


Yes, sorry.

----------


## samduke

> I'm willing to allow this kind of thing, however there's a small issue - celestial armour is not mithral; mithral doesn't change proficiency categories and celestial armour has a much higher max Dex than mithral chainmail.  So what you would actually have to do is take out the 'lighter armour + fly' property as a whole thing, which would cost 24000 - 9300 (+3 chainmail) = 13100gp.  So it works out to nearly the same as what you ended up with anyway.


Fly on command 1/day
50 charges, spell trigger Spell level × caster level × 750 gp / 50
wizard 3 x CL 5th x 750 divide by 50 for 1 use per day = 225 gp
on command Spell level 3 × caster level 5 × 1800 gp is priced as "AT WILL" way better than 1/day limit

LOL yeah but I accounted for the extra +4 mdb in that total I listed, I think I will call it the Celestial effect...

Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations 
other limitations are "proficiency categories"

celestial armor says the same thing in effect "It is considered light armor"

anyways it looks like it is approved so I will say thank you

----------


## Ridai

Alright, I think I got most things done. Here's Danny Bimsley again, now with feats, items, and (...long, I'm sorry) backstory.

As usual, I am open to changing stuff, especially since I am very hazy on what a low-epic, low-op gestalt PF1E character should look like (I basically looked at the PF Pit Fiend and went "does he have a decent chance against that without either side going lolnope?"). I noticed that some of the Tall Tale's abilities are equivalent or better than some later tier Mythic options, so, uhhh...  :Small Eek:  I can switch some Exaggerated Skills around for hopefully lesser ones (Swim? Search?), or make Tall Tale non-gestalt again, if you'd prefer that.


*Spoiler: Things that could be adjusted or just heads-up*
Show

*[Legendary Ease]* Everytime Danny can take 10, he can take 18 instead. His class hands him Skill Mastery in all his Exaggerated Skills, which includes Stealth and Perception. I'm fine with him not being able to take 10 on passive things or Legendary Ease not working for those, if that makes things more managable.*[Exaggerated Disable Device]* Disabling touch was already mentioned, I think that is Danny's main offense, but as said before, better to just set that to a value that's okay should I get into the game than trying to finagle formulas.*[Exaggerated Heal]* He can use Heal checks to recover as many HP as a standard action at-will. I doubt this will be worth using in combat outside of emergencies, but if unlimited and relatively fast out-of-combat healing is too much, we can cap that, either by going back to the usage cap per person per day from earlier tiers, or by deciding on a new cap. All other healing has usage caps and shouldn't be too plentiful, given people have a ton of HP and we may or may not run into a lot of ability damage/drain or negative levels.*[Exaggerated Balance]* He can't be forcibly knocked prone or moved, so basically immune to bull rush and wind and spells moving him about (other than teleportation or other such shenanigans). The party getting swooshed away for story or scene purposes still feels okay for me though.*[Exaggerated Escape Artist]* Can easily move through tiny openings, solid walls, and walls of force. If you'd like to have Danny-proof walls or have the ability not work against certain types of wall, that is also okay with me. I probably won't go out of the way to randomly poke through all walls to check what's behind them, since that is a good way to get caught by epic level threats alone (whether or not he is good at stealth), but he might use it if the party has a plan in mind.*[Exaggerated Hide]* Happy to report that Danny has no auto-win stealth buttons. Yes, he can take 18 in Stealth and he basically has Hide in Plain Sight, but he has no source for concealment on hand, and has to still play by the stealth rules. He can attempt to hide from blindsense/blindsight via the Dampen Presence feat, but that is also still a normal Stealth vs Perception check. Avoided giving him Stealth bonuses beyond Skill Focus.*[Exaggerated Listen]* Danny has 120ft Blindsense, and 60ft Blindsight, the latter also giving him full visual information via hearing. That normally ruins most enemy stealth attempts, but we can just go with normal Stealth vs Perception here, standard rules be damned.*[Speed]* I blew 1/3 of Danny's money on the epic Angel Rings item, which triples his speed and gives him perfect flight of the same speed (since he also gains Flight from Exaggerated Balance, he can use Acrobatics instead of Fly to make Fly checks, as per the Pathfinder conversion rules of Tall Tale). I mainly did this because massive speed is very funny to me, since his base land speed prior to multiplication is 90ft due to Exaggerated Tumble (and EX Balance gives good flight of the same speed), and he can run for x10 speed, instead of x4. If too fast, lemme know. He also has a Scavenger's Ring, which makes him sink in water, but lets him move and jump at the bottom as if on land, and he is very good at moving as well as jumping (the latter including double jumps).*[Improvised Weapons]* I went with improvised weapons because Danny has massive carrying capacity due to Exaggerated Profession (porter) and Strength, and because I find the image of Danny grabbing epic scale dungeon features and beating monsters up with them very amusing. That is all. I highly doubt this is anywhere as good as Disabling touch, and honestly it is not meant to be either.

----------


## Hellfire014

Still working on the crunch, but have some fluff:

*Spoiler: Moriko (kitsune) Backstory*
Show

Born shortly after the Crash, Moriko is one of the first recorded instances of an 'Other-touched' born in the world after the Crash, and certainly one of the oldest. She grew up in the chaos that followed, and experienced much strife due to her bestial appearance. As she grew older, she learned to harness the magic that now permeated the world, altered her appearance to be more human, dropped out of high school, and became an adventurer.

Adventuring back in those days was much tougher, and being other-touched even moreso. Not only did she have to deal with racism, but also baseline zealots that went out of their way to backstab other-touched in the middle of a dungeon. Despite this, she quickly rose through the ranks as a reliable and powerful adventurer, one of the first A-Ranks. As she neared her 20th birthday, and the world was becoming slightly more stable, information was released on the Sanctuary Initiative: an international organization for adventurers to deal with dungeons, not based in any country.

Moriko quickly packed up and joined the initiative, and gave few demands: enforced civill rights for other-touched, and some land ownership on the new island. After some back and forth, she was begrudgingly given her demands, the A-Rank now adding extra weight and prestige to the project. Her magics involving creation were a massive boon to the project, shaving decades off of its initial estimate. After the project's completion, she retired from adventuring to start a family.

Although retired from adventuring, she didn't remove herself from the career completely, taking a job as an administrator for the Sanctuary Guild, after going and getting her GED, of course. for over 60 years she worked there, meeting every adventurer that walked through her doors (and pranking most of them), only occasionally leaving the island as an extra hand in some relief work.

Despite her advanced age, her appearance hasn't changed much since she last peaked in her late teens. Her family has all grown, with even her great-grandchildren having families of their own. While she still maintains her A-rank, many wonder if her rank is actually earned; few who confront her directly about it continue to question it. She is tired of this quiet life, and as her family can now take care of themselves, many of which also became adventurers, she decided to rejoin the profession of her youth.



Homebrew Requests:
Multi-focus Strength from HERE.

A custom Incanter Specialization. it is word-for-word almost exactly the same as the Sword Birth specialization, but for Whitesmith instead of Lingchi Warrior.

*Spoiler*
Show

Enhancement Adept (3 specialization points)
The incanter gains The Mystic Crucible at 1st level and Personal Refinement at 3rd level as a Whitesmith (see Armorist archetypes) of his incanter level. He gains 1 arsenal trick at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter. He may select arsenal tricks as if he were a lingchi warrior of his incanter level.


Edit: Also looking at the plant-themed destructive blasts in Old Destruction.

----------


## Triskavanski

Working on my Rat King character, and should have something to show soon.

----------


## Llyarden

> Homebrew Requests:
> Multi-focus Strength from HERE.
> 
> A custom Incanter Specialization. it is word-for-word almost exactly the same as the Sword Birth specialization, but for Whitesmith instead of Lingchi Warrior.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Enhancement Adept (3 specialization points)
> ...


Multi-Focused Strength basically looks like an infinitely scaling Rigorous Student, which seems fair for an epic feat.  Enhancement Adept is fine.  As for the plant blasts, if I recall correctly weren't they just refluffed versions of existing blasts?

----------


## Volthawk

So I was figuring out my idea, and simulating what it'd look like in play, and frankly there'd be way too many fiddly bits going on, particularly with herbalism - when I'm busting out multi-page spreadsheets to figure out what I'd be able to do every day and still finding it difficult to clearly see what's going on, that's too much for my tiny mind (and herbalism doesn't seem to scale that well to our level in general). Maybe trying to use two entirely different randomness-based subsystems was a bad idea.

Currently thinking of focusing down on the card casting, because that looks fun and it's hard to mess up with Spheres. Wild magic, focus on offensive magic, that sort of thing. Should be pretty obvious why they're not one of the big famous popular ones.

----------


## Ridai

Given the flurry of request links in this thread, I tried locating what sheets have been posted thus far. I'm sorry if I missed anyone. Added links to the classes and archetypes (where legal, given there is some official non-SRD 3.5 stuff. Also no idea what PBFM is)

*Spoiler: Esoteric low optimization table*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Professor Reginald Ventnorwall
Tinker 21 // URogue 20 (Eldritch Scoundrel / PBFM) / Grand Creator 1

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 // Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 // invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5//Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke
Lei Korosuga
Sentinel 21 // Roguetotum 3/Swashbuckler 8/Kensai Bladebound Magus 10

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

----------


## grumblyarcher

What I've got so far

I'm building them out as a collective with 5 cohorts functioning as a well-balanced 'mini-squad' (Sniper, mid-range, tank, heavy weapons, demolition/medic) and packing in the internal cooperation abilities. They're effective, but people understandably find a group of five, largely mute, post-humans that move in perfect concert, understandably disturbing. Their career has mostly been one of getting assigned as essentially a high-quality 'goon squad' for the more marketable adventurers and handling a lot of clean-up operations no one else wants.

----------


## Triskavanski

> What I've got so far
> 
> I'm building them out as a collective with 5 cohorts functioning as a well-balanced 'mini-squad' (Sniper, mid-range, tank, heavy weapons, demolition/medic) and packing in the internal cooperation abilities. They're effective, but people understandably find a group of five, largely mute, post-humans that move in perfect concert, understandably disturbing. Their career has mostly been one of getting assigned as essentially a high-quality 'goon squad' for the more marketable adventurers and handling a lot of clean-up operations no one else wants.


Well shoot. Kinda what I'm doing with my Rat King, but its ratfolk instead of humans.

----------


## Drako_Beoulve

Is 3.5 & Dragon Magazine material allowed?, I remember a certain character I would like to replay here.

----------


## Dakrsidder

I converted as I could, but for the archetype I have slotted atm I wasn't able to quickly find anything particularly similar to the 9th level power. On the off chance I cannot find a pf version, what should be done? 

Additionally, I currently have the heart chakra feat which iirc is official 3.x material, but I was wondering if there was an acceptable way to get it through a feat anyway?

Besides those two and finishing items, the sheet should be ok mechanically

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Given the flurry of request links in this thread, I tried locating what sheets have been posted thus far. I'm sorry if I missed anyone. Added links to the classes and archetypes (where legal, given there is some official non-SRD 3.5 stuff. Also no idea what PBFM is)


Pathfinder has Alternative Capstone options. There are many which are only available to one specific class (e.g. "Veteran Of Endless War", a capstone available to fighters that improves their armor/weapon training by 2 points), a few that are only available to a handful of classes (e.g. "Old Dog, New Tricks", a capstone available to classes that get at least 4 bonus combat feats, that itself gives them 4 combat feats), and then a few that are available to literally any class (e.g. "Perfect Body, Flawless Mind", a capstone available to any class, which gives you 8 points to spread around your attributes as you desire).

"PBFM" is "Perfect Body Flawless Mind".

----------


## paradox26

My request seems to have been inadvertently overlooked. So is it possible to use the alternative class from pfsrd, the Legendary Samurai? It is replete with techniques and arts governed by the spirit pool, so it is not a simple case of hitting things over and over, and has a lot of flexibility.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alt...ndary-samurai/

----------


## Llyarden

> Is 3.5 & Dragon Magazine material allowed?, I remember a certain character I would like to replay here.


Unless it can be legally linked to freely (once upon a time WotC had a few bits and pieces on their website), no.




> My request seems to have been inadvertently overlooked. So is it possible to use the alternative class from pfsrd, the Legendary Samurai? It is replete with techniques and arts governed by the spirit pool, so it is not a simple case of hitting things over and over, and has a lot of flexibility.
> 
> https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alt...ndary-samurai/


Sorry, yes, legendary samurai is allowed.




> I converted as I could, but for the archetype I have slotted atm I wasn't able to quickly find anything particularly similar to the 9th level power. On the off chance I cannot find a pf version, what should be done? 
> 
> Additionally, I currently have the heart chakra feat which iirc is official 3.x material, but I was wondering if there was an acceptable way to get it through a feat anyway?
> 
> Besides those two and finishing items, the sheet should be ok mechanically


Heart is equivalent to the Body for incarnum -> akashic, right?  I'd say you could take an epic feat to let you bind veils to the body slot, if that's what you were meaning.

----------


## Lord Foul

> Feral Soul oracle and the Snakes mystery are approved.  As you guessed, the succubus class and spirit blade don't fit thematically


 hm.  Tricky then.  Given that my other weird concept is just disallowed as a concept... need to add more weird to a pyromaniac wrestler Gnoll with a pet snake.  Hm, you said that tension had some of the sort of dynamic play you wanted.  I could just build striker on the other side it that works

or I could bring my Black Powder Samurai from a kill six billion demons game (weird multiclass of striker, gunslinger, technician and incanter)

----------


## thethird

> If you want to use them (and think you can without ending up with something crazy overpowered I guess) then feel free to use the mythos/gramarie stuff.  Although you'll have to suggest some means by which you can decide a reasonable value for how many setgetzen mythos points and kreikiri graft points you've accumulated, because as far as I can see there's no mechanical limit to those.


I thing it's a bit more complex that what I think I can pull off on a reasonable time so it probably won't matter as I won't have an entry ready for the game. Still it's a fun thought exercise and will try to build it, maybe I can then share with you some "fun" monsters so you can use them.

The idea was to use feats to get kreikiri mythos as a setgetzen (which granted has one of the most powerful ways of generating mythos points when combined with a way of generating bodies).

- I would make two three suggestion to reign things in:
 - 1: Cap the initial wealth (mythos points, graft points) out at wbl, have the cost come out of the million figure you gave along with any actual wealth spending.
 - 2: Say that created / hiveminded creatures doesn't grant mythos points. That basically shoots down the exponential growth of I create a creature, I join it into the collective, get X mythos points, then break it down for Y graft points, I create a creature (that costs less than X + Y) and repeat.
 - 3: Have a short timeframe and extremely limited resources. While it eventually becomes feasible to do most things, it takes time (gramarie takes a lot of time and Krekiri creature's modifications take time). For example, powers awakened after falling into a dungeon a week ago.That only helps with the initial setup though. As obviously resources would be spent in bringing those down or negating them outright (setting "farms" in fast time demiplanes for example).

----------


## AvatarVecna

Is a porcupine man too inhuman?

----------


## Dakrsidder

Forgot about akashic for a second, but heart would be chest. Although its an 18th level talent in veilweaving sphere, Ill just pretend its not

As for the power, Ill just leave it blank

----------


## grumblyarcher

> Well shoot. Kinda what I'm doing with my Rat King, but its ratfolk instead of humans.


I'd say keep at it, there is every chance I don't finish my character as there are a lot of moving parts. Even then there is every chance the GM prefers your take on the concept over mine.

----------


## Darius Vibrtrar

Had someone help with this.... fractional Save buisness. Adjusted spells memorized and a few equipment issues. Durren is certainly a one trick pony, but otherwise is the backpack healer

Durren of the Shadow

----------


## Genth

Would a Stormshifter Huay (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Stormshifter), an Akashic Class archetype where you shapeshift into elementals while also creating elemental storms around you, I.e. *becoming* a storm be considered Esoteric? I don't tend to build in complexity for the sake of complexity, and am more interested in thematic esoterica. Otherwise I find I end up with a bundle of limbs and meaningless pools in search of a character  😆 

I'd be looking to combine it with something like Aurora Soul Mystic, to have an elemental storm that punches you with other elemental powers, though I'm looking for other punchy classes that have more interesting thematic connections.

----------


## Hamste

> Given the flurry of request links in this thread, I tried locating what sheets have been posted thus far. I'm sorry if I missed anyone. Added links to the classes and archetypes (where legal, given there is some official non-SRD 3.5 stuff. Also no idea what PBFM is)
> 
> *Spoiler: Esoteric low optimization table*
> Show
> 
> Player
> Character
> Classes
> 
> ...


Not sure if it's helpful but maybe add the concept the person puts forward for why they are unusual? Like for the Endless one it would have under concept something like Sacrificial Lamb/Karma Fighter seeing it's built around getting hit. Just a short thing to give the DM an easy way to see the gimmick in otherwise large sheets that might obscure what the interesting thing is?

----------


## AvatarVecna

Requesting Savage

----------


## GentlemanVoodoo

Got a question Llyarden. Whipped up some homebrew for a Sha'ir Occultist. Might this be something for consideration?

----------


## samduke

@Llyarden
mostly because I had a few ideas for this on the unique front and have a optional build on the burners
is the Legendary Fighter "unique" enough? and can I use it?

and then can we submit more than 1 character (primary/alternate) ? if not then I will have to decided.

----------


## Shiro_Nogard

Okay.
Name: Reese McGram.
Classes: Quartzer 20 (ffd20), Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20) + Gestalt: Spellforge 16 (Spheres), Realmwalker 5 (Spheres) 
Was marshaled to an adventurer group by his sister. There he found he had talent with a sword. He wasn't the best, but could hold his own. 
One day, while on a mission his group was assaulted by vampires. There was only two survivors, he and his sister. However she was turned in to a vampire while he endured it and only turned in to a dhampir. The leader took his sister away. Now he is looking for them to bring her back.
Now he could just look for her and kill her, but as he had a subject for his investigation is looking for a way to maybe make her like him. Longevity can be a lonely affair.

Focuses mainly on time effects, mostly buffing, uses nanites or tattoos to make long lasting effects on people so they can fulfill their mission better and takes care of equipment mostly. Modified a rapier to use elemental cartridges to make use of different elements/effects on the targets.
As he enhanced himself to not need much sleep time he is a good night watcher.

How is this for a character?

----------


## grumblyarcher

Do we have a deadline?

----------


## grumblyarcher

Anyone know of a feat that allows me to use my intelligence modifier for AoOs (a la, SoP's Muscular Reflexes but with intelligence)?

----------


## Lord Foul

> Anyone know of a feat that allows me to use my intelligence modifier for AoOs (a la, PoW's Muscular Reflexes but with intelligence)?


Not a feat, but a 1 level dip in Warder (pow) gets that

----------


## Dr.Gunsforhands

Arachne the Cyberneticist/Monster Trainer is almost done! I'm just throwing feats and items at her at this point to see what sticks.

Bullet points that didn't fit in the sheet text boxes easily!

*Spoiler*
Show

- Yes, her dads actually named her that. They thought it was cool
- Has had an interest in bugs and spiders since she was little
- Her first dungeon was unsurprisingly spider-themed, with a drider as its boss
- The "Loom of Arachne" was its treasure. The drider didn't name it that, we did
- Is it okay to have had a childhood rivalry with one of the S-Rank adventurers?

- Used her entomology research to further the study of medicine and engineering
- Bug Mechanics form the theoretical basis for most of her cybernetic stuff
- She's especially fond of her cartoonish electric silk whip she sucks at using
- The teleporter is based on the biology of a phase spider she dissected
- She does more research and crafting than adventuring lately
- This probably comes across since she has no offense and is soooo sloooow

- Damon the spider is a glossy blue friend who likes having his carapace polished
- He grew from Tiny to Colossal over the course of Arachne's adventuring career

- The Drider from the first dungeon was caught after we weakened him
- The Evil Drider Brain Thing seems to lift as long as he's on Team Arachne
- It comes right back if he's released. We tried. Looks like he's stuck with us

- Arachne gets picked for all the bug-themed dungeons. This suits her just fine
- The Thriae Queen grew from a dancer she caught a while ago
- She likes being in a hive mind, even though that's not really a thing for Thriae

- We found an Immature Norn in a fey-themed dungeon and leveled her up
- She says Arachne was always destined to inherit her power and restore fate
- I think she just likes the aesthetic of being someone's rad Persona
- So rad, in fact, that Pixie got jealous and wanted to come too

- Most of the monsters Arachne catches get released or put down eventually
- It feels weird to have more than six
- The rust monster doesn't count though
- Rusty is the best, everyone loves him
- (Anti-rust armor coating: 500 GP)


Questions!

*Spoiler*
Show

- The rivalry thing
- I vaguely remember from the blurb that there were no survivors from the Other World, so I included a sentence on how monsters seem to exist just to guard their dungeons; those that are sapient have no memory of the world they're ostensibly from. Is that... correct? Or at least close enough?
- Are rehabilitated monsters a thing? Like, are any of them hanging around peacefully outside their dungeons, even if it's off-theme for us to play as one? Or would it be wrong to introduce such a creature even as a background NPC?
- I took the Half-Drow race/feature to qualify for a feat I found online that lets one train vermin as though they were animals. The only other one I could find was Duergar-only for some reason. Is the Vermin Trainer feat okay?
- Related: I assume that Earth languages all count as common for purposes of language selection?
- Unrelated: The Monster Researcher feat and archetype don't seem to be a thing on the SRD. I assume for purposes of the sheet that the Monster Researcher feat is just the Monster Trainer equivalent of Tinkering Activator, and let Arachne use her intelligence for trainer spells. Is that okay?

----------


## Yas392

Updating Table.

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Professor Reginald Ventnorwall
Tinker 21 | URogue 20 (Eldritch Scoundrel / PBFM) / Grand Creator 1

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke
Lei Korosuga
Sentinel 21 | Roguetotum 3/Swashbuckler 8/Kensai Bladebound Magus 10

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

----------


## Shiro_Nogard

You are missing my character.
Sheet almost done. :(

----------


## Dakrsidder

Realized I have a few questions I forgot to ask

First, would something such as a CL boost affect thought magic?

Second, would the Extractor be considered a martial adept outside of IL? 

If yes to the second, there's three things: would Infinite Shore (the one discipline they gain access to) be considered a known discipline, despite the unusual way of interacting with it in Fugue State, would the Awakened Dreamer maneuvers require inspiration to initiate, and because the Extractor has no recovery method would this mean neither does the Awakened Dreamer?

My sheet probably went unnoticed too maybe I'll add it later

----------


## QuantumFlash

Well this seems interesting, dunno how I missed it before, even if just in theorycrafting I might as well try to make something quick for this if possible, seems deadline might be soon...

----------


## Ridai

Just realized the transition to epic levels is a little messy for the gestalt Tall Tale. The class in itself stops progressing, just maintaining the ranks of whatever skills you picked as Exaggerated Skills, and handing you Epic Skill Focus feats in addition to getting extra Epic Feats, which is fine.

However, in Epic, there is no difference between normal Tall Tale and the gestalt variant, since the difference in BAB and base saves falls away, HD and skills are the same, no further Exaggerated Skills are unlocked, the normal Skill Focus and Skill Mastery progression stops for the normal Tall Tale's epic progression, and there is no progression for the gestalt version.

Possible solutions I can see for this if I want to stay within the Tall Tale-verse (since not a single Librim Eternia or Epic prestige class really fits this):
1) continue as is with the gestalt version and the single-class epic progression.
2) expand the epic progression for the Tall Tale, doubling up bonus feats to simulate two class tracks?
3) If it is ruled that single-class Tall Tale can continue increasing the skill ranks of all 10 Exaggerated Skills picked (since it normally only goes up to 5 Exaggerated Skills): switch to epic single-class Tall Tale, use the second track for something else.
4) If it is ruled that single-class Tall Tale can't continue increasing the skill ranks: take the Jack of All Trades prestige class that explicitly progresses all possessed Exaggerated Skills' ranks, do something else with the second track.

Any preferences?

----------


## ICN

Well, I've been dithering between a couple options for a while, so I figured I might as well ask you, Llyarden: Would you rather see a character built around stealing abilities from/mimicking encountered enemies, or a Fowl Infestation minionmancer build?

----------


## samduke

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Professor Reginald Ventnorwall
Tinker 21 | URogue 20 (Eldritch Scoundrel / PBFM) / Grand Creator 1

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke
Lei Korosuga
Sentinel 21 | Roguetotum 3/Swashbuckler 8/Kensai Bladebound Magus 10

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)








> You are missing my character.
> Sheet almost done. :(


Generally people will only place a character on a table if they find a link to the actual sheet, which is not there.

I looked at several sheets for those that seemed mostly to fully complete I looked at averages amongst those sheets
this is not a reflection of any character or sheet but just average numbers

hp 493
ac 42
fort 29
ref 23
will 27
attack +37

----------


## Thunder999

I never got an answer about combining magic items.

----------


## Darius Vibrtrar

> I never got an answer about combining magic items.


In an earlier post they said combining magic items was with approval.

----------


## Thunder999

Thanks Darius, must have missed that somehow.

I'd like to request combining Wings of Flying, Cloak of Resistance and Muleback Cords then please.

----------


## QuantumFlash

For Freelancer, does the restriction on taking prestige classes apply to both tracks or just the track you took Freelancer in?

----------


## samduke

> In an earlier post they said combining magic items was with approval.


will you link where the gm said this , I looked and I saw nothing mentioned about combining items

----------


## Darius Vibrtrar

> No pre-game crafting.  Custom items I might be willing to consider.


Combining two items is "technically" customizing an item

----------


## Duqueen

an epic game that takes freelancer? quite tempted if there is still time until selections.

Going for a Freelancer (Monsterkin) 21 // The Reaper (from strange magic) 21

----------


## Dakrsidder

*Spoiler: Tables are so big*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Professor Reginald Ventnorwall
Tinker 21 | URogue 20 (Eldritch Scoundrel / PBFM) / Grand Creator 1

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke
Lei Korosuga
Sentinel 21 | Roguetotum 3/Swashbuckler 8/Kensai Bladebound Magus 10

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)

Dakrsidder
Meteon
Philosopher 11 / Silent Blade 10 | Extractor 9 / Paragon 2 / Awakened Dreamer 10

----------


## QuantumFlash

Decided to try some sort of antimagic/antimage tanky build with Monsterkin Freelancer 21//Spellscorn Fighter 20/Unmage 1

Probably not the best damage dealer or utility, but should be a major spanner in the works for any sort of enemy magic user while being pretty hard to kill.

----------


## angelpalm

Decided to drop my initial concept for something a bit more shounen-esqe.   Character will be basically an unarmed build using those piledrivers and armor I am just flavoring it as martial arts magic stuff that my pc refined after getting access to after completing what he believes to be a secret quest in one of the dungeons.   He has a prc that gains a bloodline that stacks with actual sorcerer levels but then it has the align class feature that lets you gain all a classes features anyways besides the chassis.   This wouldnt stack with the bloodline stuff it already gets so I am a bit confused on what they intended for this prc but I guess I am doing it right by using it to make room for more class levels.  



Anywho here is bit on my pc.


*Spoiler: Shun*
Show



_art by mitch divider_

Originally a netrunner/petty thief that fancied himself an adventurer to gain some extra dough since he took care of his younger sister.  This was usually by finding or stealing items on runs from other adventures.   But after he stole from the wrong person he was forced to go into a higher rank dungeon in order to help a crime sponsored party find a precious artifact.   It was either that suicide mission or they would sell his sister to pay off his "debt".    

But in good shounen fashion he ended up being one of the only two ppl to finish the mission with himself personally clearing it and being rewarded the special artifact that was in fact a title that implanted skills/powers into his soul.  Using his new found abilities and getting a good recommendation on the other survivor who was also the crime syndicates head's granddaughter, Shun is allowed to not only clear his debt but also have his sister get taken care of provided he do their dirty work.  Shun wants to really be a role model to his sister but he is conflicted with these new role he has been appointed,  one by the syndicate and the other by his very destiny itself.  


Combat-wise Shun is the typical twf blender that will have a ton of actions/speed and the utility/self buffing of psionics. His weapons are actually those piledrives but since they are stated to be just gauntlets I am reflavoring it as his new special martial arts style.  these weapons are like a permanent veil effect that have a cool gimmick the seems to be like a more limited version of Tension.   Hopefully he will have numbers close to the average.  If his disruption dmg ends up being to much I might swap some levels around.  Still have to add mythic stuff.









*Spoiler: Tables are so big*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Professor Reginald Ventnorwall
Tinker 21 | URogue 20 (Eldritch Scoundrel / PBFM) / Grand Creator 1

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke
Lei Korosuga
Sentinel 21 | Roguetotum 3/Swashbuckler 8/Kensai Bladebound Magus 10

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)

Dakrsidder
Meteon
Philosopher 11 / Silent Blade 10 | Extractor 9 / Paragon 2 / Awakened Dreamer 10

Angelpalm
Shun
Cryptic 20 / Aegis 1 | Helsman 7 / Sorcerer 11 / Machine Scion 10

----------


## Shiro_Nogard

> Generally people will only place a character on a table if they find a link to the actual sheet, which is not there.


Thanks for the note.

Well, am at work and my phone doesn't help a lot on this, but here goes the sheet:

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/2736442/edit

Base classes: 
Quartzer 20
https://www.finalfantasyd20.com/clas...ypes/quartzer/
Professional duelist 1
https://www.finalfantasyd20.com/clas...ional-duelist/

Gestalt:
Spellforge 16
http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/spellforge
Realms Walker 5
http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/realmwalker

Just need to add magical items.


Also, there is no self craft magical items. Or am I wrong?

----------


## Llyarden

Sorry for the delay in replying, New Year kinda ate my Sunday.




> Requesting Savage


Savage is approved, although some of the gifts/totems would need rewriting to make sense for PF rules.




> Got a question Llyarden. Whipped up some homebrew for a Sha'ir Occultist. Might this be something for consideration?


An elemental defence shouldn't augment your attacks (there is a 3pp Machine element if you want something metal-themed, although that might be too technological), and for this game in particular having the First World Creature template doesn't fit thematically.  Other than that go ahead.




> @Llyarden
> mostly because I had a few ideas for this on the unique front and have a optional build on the burners
> is the Legendary Fighter "unique" enough? and can I use it?
> 
> and then can we submit more than 1 character (primary/alternate) ? if not then I will have to decided.


Legendary Fighter is allowed, and sure you can do multiple characters.




> Do we have a deadline?


We didn't yet, but I'll say I'll probably close this to new interest on Sunday 8th and go through sheets over the week after.




> Questions!
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> - The rivalry thing
> - I vaguely remember from the blurb that there were no survivors from the Other World, so I included a sentence on how monsters seem to exist just to guard their dungeons; those that are sapient have no memory of the world they're ostensibly from. Is that... correct? Or at least close enough?
> - Are rehabilitated monsters a thing? Like, are any of them hanging around peacefully outside their dungeons, even if it's off-theme for us to play as one? Or would it be wrong to introduce such a creature even as a background NPC?
> - I took the Half-Drow race/feature to qualify for a feat I found online that lets one train vermin as though they were animals. The only other one I could find was Duergar-only for some reason. Is the Vermin Trainer feat okay?
> ...


- Yes, you're welcome to have a rivalry with one of the Five - I left them undefined specifically so people could include interactions with them if needed.
- Yep, pretty much.
- The only 'rehabilitated' monsters are ones that are bound to people (much like your captured monsters.)  There have been some experiments done with training sapient monsters and then releasing them, but without a bond to a person they revert to hostility.
- Sure.
- Correct.
- Ah, the joys of the pfsrd copying _half_ a book.  Yes, that's fine, I happen to have that book anyway.




> Realized I have a few questions I forgot to ask
> 
> First, would something such as a CL boost affect thought magic?
> 
> Second, would the Extractor be considered a martial adept outside of IL? 
> 
> If yes to the second, there's three things: would Infinite Shore (the one discipline they gain access to) be considered a known discipline, despite the unusual way of interacting with it in Fugue State, would the Awakened Dreamer maneuvers require inspiration to initiate, and because the Extractor has no recovery method would this mean neither does the Awakened Dreamer?
> 
> My sheet probably went unnoticed too maybe I'll add it later


Yes.

Not sure what this question is supposed to mean.

Yes, the Awakened Dreamer would use the Extractor's methods of initiating maneuvers, and RAW there is no recovery method, but I'll say you can spend a full-round action to recover them, because even the Martial Training feats do that.




> Well, I've been dithering between a couple options for a while, so I figured I might as well ask you, Llyarden: Would you rather see a character built around stealing abilities from/mimicking encountered enemies, or a Fowl Infestation minionmancer build?


I don't mind, although it's worth noting that a fair number of enemies won't be drawing items on account of being monsters.




> I never got an answer about combining magic items.


Items can be combined at the usual surcharge of +50% of the cheaper item's cost.




> For Freelancer, does the restriction on taking prestige classes apply to both tracks or just the track you took Freelancer in?


You can take a PrC so long as you entirely qualify for it _without_ your freelancer features.

EDIT: And the multiquote thing broke again.




> Just realized the transition to epic levels is a little messy for the gestalt Tall Tale. The class in itself stops progressing, just maintaining the ranks of whatever skills you picked as Exaggerated Skills, and handing you Epic Skill Focus feats in addition to getting extra Epic Feats, which is fine.
> 
> However, in Epic, there is no difference between normal Tall Tale and the gestalt variant, since the difference in BAB and base saves falls away, HD and skills are the same, no further Exaggerated Skills are unlocked, the normal Skill Focus and Skill Mastery progression stops for the normal Tall Tale's epic progression, and there is no progression for the gestalt version.
> 
> Possible solutions I can see for this if I want to stay within the Tall Tale-verse (since not a single Librim Eternia or Epic prestige class really fits this):
> 1) continue as is with the gestalt version and the single-class epic progression.
> 2) expand the epic progression for the Tall Tale, doubling up bonus feats to simulate two class tracks?
> 3) If it is ruled that single-class Tall Tale can continue increasing the skill ranks of all 10 Exaggerated Skills picked (since it normally only goes up to 5 Exaggerated Skills): switch to epic single-class Tall Tale, use the second track for something else.
> 4) If it is ruled that single-class Tall Tale can't continue increasing the skill ranks: take the Jack of All Trades prestige class that explicitly progresses all possessed Exaggerated Skills' ranks, do something else with the second track.
> ...


I think doubling up the epic progression is the most reasonable.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Sorry for the delay in replying, New Year kinda ate my Sunday.


Very understandable.




> Savage is approved, although some of the gifts/totems would need rewriting to make sense for PF rules.


Assuming this is generally in regards to the skill-related ones, understandable.

I've got a superhero-esque character coming together, but I think I need some rulings:

*Spoiler: Quills & Barbs*
Show




> *Quills*
> Prerequisite: Any natural attack.
> Ability Score: Strength
> Benefit: The evolutionist grows long quills over his body. When a creature attacks the evolutionist with a natural or handheld weapon, or makes a touch attack (even with a beneficial spell), 1d4 quills automatically strike it, dealing 1 point of piercing damage each. Also, any creature that suffers this damage must make a reflex save, or the quill breaks and lodges in her flesh. A lodged quill imposes a -1 penalty on attacks, saves and skill checks, these penalties stack. Removing the quill requires a DC 14 Heal check and doing so deals another 1d4 points of damage.
> Once per round, as a free action, the evolutionist can chose to expose or retract her quills (creatures touching or attacking the evolutionist while the quills are retracted dont have to worry about them). Quills are considered natural weapons.
> Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken after the first, the number of quills that strike an attacker increases by one step (to 1d6 for the second mutation) and the DC on the heal check to remove a quill increases by +2. This mutation can be taken once per two mutator levels.


Okay, so let's break this down, one bit at a time.

_"When a creature attacks the evolutionist with a natural or handheld weapon, or makes a touch attack"_

"Handheld weapon" covers a lot of ground. Basically all weapons are handheld. Generally, when there is a "reactive damage" effect like this, affecting someone who touches you, it affects touch attacks, natural weapons, and non-reach melee weapons. This would also affect reach melee weapons, and more concerningly ranged weapons. Should I go with the text as it exists (and my quills shoot out to lodge themselves in someone shooting me with a handheld gun from a mile away), or should I go with the text as it's usually written and in a way that makes more sense (it affect people who touch me pretty close)?

_"1d4 quills automatically strike it, dealing 1 point of piercing damage each"_

According to OP:

*Spoiler: quote*
Show




> Originally Posted by RoyVG
> 
> 
> Also a few small questions about the Quills mutation. It counts as a natural weapon, so if you increase your size, the damage should increase as well, right? So 1 becomes 1d2, 1d2 becomes 1d3, etc.
> 
> 
> That is correct.
> 
> [...]
> ...





The first answer tells us that the number of quills and the damage per quill are tracked separately - the number of quills isn't a shorthand for how much damage it's dealing. It's not 1 instance of 1d4 damage, it's 1d4 instances of 1 damage. The second answer shows that the damage itself can be increased through normal means.

_"any creature that suffers this damage must make a reflex save, or the quill breaks and lodges in her flesh."
"A lodged quill imposes a -1 penalty[...]these penalties stack."
"Removing the quills requires a DC 14 Heal checks and doing so deals another 1d4 points of damage."
"and the DC on the heal check to remove a quill increases by +2"_

Alright so there seems to be two ways to read this (explicitly, according to the quote below):

*Spoiler: quote*
Show




> Originally Posted by Huey Nomure
> 
> 
> A little clarification: in the Quills Ex-Mutation entry, each quill must be treated separately for the resolution of Reflex saves? The determinative article ("the quill") addressing a potential bunch of objects slightly confounds me...
> 
> 
> That is an option for players and DMs. If you want, you can roll a save for each quill. If you want to save time, you can roll one save for all quills in any one strike.





Reading 1: When somebody strikes me, and is then hit by [N] quills, they must make one reflex save, or all the quills lodge in them, giving penalties until removed. Removing all the quills requires making a single heal check and taking 1d4 damage.

Reading 2: When somebody strikes me, and is then hit by [N] quills, they must make [N] reflex saves, with each failed save meaning a single lodged quill, giving penalties until removed. Removing all the quills requires making [N] heal checks and taking [N]d4 damage.

I have three questions here:

1) Which of the above readings are we using?

2) When using the Heal skill to remove a quill/all quills, what action does that take on the part of the person making the Heal check? It doesn't say.

3) Does the damage dealt upon removing a quill/all quills (the 1d4) get upgraded by improvements to the Quills natural attack, or is it stuck at 1d4 regardless?




> *Barbs*
> Prerequisite: Quills, Spines.
> Ability Score: Dexterity
> Benefit: On a failed reflex save, the evolutionist's spine attacks lodge onto the flesh of his opponents just like quills do, imposing the same penalties and following the same rules for removal.
> Furthermore, the damage dice for the evolutionist's spines increases by one step.
> Further Mutations: Every time this mutation is taken, the damage dice of the evolutionist's spines increases by one step. This mutation can be taken once per five mutator levels.


_"lodge onto the flesh of his opponents just like quills do"_

First, this says it counts as quills for the purposes of lodging into the flesh - I'm taking that to mean that I'm not adding quill damage to my spine damage, just that there is a saving throw vs a penalty, and that penalty can be undone by a heal check and 1d4 damage. Beyond how the previous Quill rulings affect Barbs, there's two readings here, I think?

Reading 1: Each of my 7 spine attacks counts as a single quill.

Reading 2: Each of my 7 spine attacks counts as [N] quills.

----------


## samduke

*Spoiler: Tables are so big*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Professor Reginald Ventnorwall
Tinker 21 | URogue 20 (Eldritch Scoundrel / PBFM) / Grand Creator 1

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke
Lei Korosuga
Sentinel 21 | Roguetotum 3/Swashbuckler 8/Kensai Bladebound Magus 10

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)

Dakrsidder
Meteon
Philosopher 11 / Silent Blade 10 | Extractor 9 / Paragon 2 / Awakened Dreamer 10

Angelpalm
Shun
Cryptic 20 / Aegis 1 | Helsman 7 / Sorcerer 11 / Machine Scion 10






edited

----------


## Llyarden

> (snip; quills, spines and barbs, oh my!)


The quills seem to be mostly inspired by the bandersnatch, so...
- The quills only affect creatures that attack with non-reach manufactured weapons, melee natural weapons, unarmed strikes or touch attacks...and it probably seems reasonable to also apply it to anyone using combat maneuvers on the evolutionist unless they have some way of using a combat maneuver through a weapon that would avoid the quills if used in a normal attack (some combat maneuvers allow this natively.)
- This wasn't a question, but yes, it's 1d4 quills that deal 1d(whatever) damage each.  This is particularly relevant when the attacker has DR.
- For convenience, one saving throw for all quills.
- Full-round action to remove 1 quill, but I'll say that every 5 points over the Heal DC removes another quill.
- No, the damage for removing a quill is fixed (but I will say that it ignores DR, on account of, y'know, it had to get through the DR already to get embedded in the first place).
- My interpretation of Barbs was that each spine counts as a quill.

----------


## samduke

I am not sure how Unique

Half-Elf Sentinel 21 // Roguetotum 3/Swashbuckler 8/Kensai/Bladebound Magus 10 

is let alone the alternative I have been tinkering with 

Human Legendary Fighter (Steelbound Soldier<spheres>) 21 // Monk (Qinggong Zen) 21 

is? I am not huge on most homebrew out there.

so if anyone has a useful thought I am willing to explore them.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Alright, Ferrous the Magus is all but complete, the only thing missing is an Epic Progression for the Legendary Magus and Legendary Kineticist. Hence, Ill be presenting an Epic Progression for them both.

First, I do believe that Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might should continue progression as they already were. Full-Casters & Experts getting a talent every level, Mid-Casters & Adepts getting 3/4s of a talent every level, and Low-Casters & Proficents getting half a talent every level. 

Aside from that...

*Spoiler: Legendary Magus Epic Progression*
Show

Arcane Potential: A Legendary Magus includes its Epic Levels to calculate its maximum Potential, increasing by 1 at level 21 and every 3 levels after.

Magus Arcana: An Epic Legendary Magus no longer gains new Magus Arcana automatically as they increase in level. They can still gain more Magus Arcana using the non-epic feat Extra Arcana.

Damage Bonus: An Epic Legendary Magus gains a +1 bonus to all physical damage rolls at 21st level and every three levels

Epic Potential: At 21st level, the Legendary Magus learns how to draw upon their Potential simply from the raw magical power they possess, without the need to draw it from spells they cast. At the start of each round, and when they roll initiative, they gain 1 point of Potential. At 25th level, and every 4 levels afterwards, they gain an extra point of Potential at the start of their turn.

Bonus Class Feat: The Epic Legendary Magus gains a bonus class feat as described in the Universal Class Features section of this chapter at 22nd level and an additional bonus class feat every two levels (24th, 26th, 28th, etc.). These class feats can be selected from Combat, Item Creation, Magic, and Metamagic feats.


*Spoiler: Legendary Kineticist Epic Progression*
Show

Kinetic Blast: A Legendary Kineticists kinetic blast increases by +1d6+1 for physical blasts and +1d6 for energy blasts at level 21 and every odd numbered level thereafter. 

Damage Bonus: An Epic Legendary Kineticist gains a +1 bonus to all physical damage rolls at 21st level and every four levels. Additionally, a Legendary Kineticist can apply it's Epic Damage Bonus to all damage rolls performed with its Kinetic Blast in addition to physical damage.

Internal Buffer: At level 21, a Legendary Kineticists Internal Buffer increases by 1 point, and increases by an additional 1 point at level 26 and every 5 levels thereafter. 

Expanded Element: At level 22, a Legendary Kineticist can either learn to use another element or expand their understanding of their known elements. They can select any element, but cannot select an element more times than they have selected their primary element. If they select an element four or more times, they gain a stacking +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls as well as caster level and DCs when using a wild talent of that element. At level 30, and every 8 levels afterwards, a Legendary Kineticist can select an additional Element. 

Infusion Specialization At level 23, a Legendary Kineticist reduces the combined burn cost of the infusions by an additional 1 point, and again at level 26 and every 3 levels afterwards. 

Battle Burn: At level 25, a Legendary Kineticist can accept an additional point of battle burn. At level 32 and every 7 levels afterwards, they can accept an additional point of battle burn.

Bonus Class Feats: The Epic Legendary Magus gains a bonus class feat as described in the Universal Class Features section of this chapter at 22nd level and an additional bonus class feat every three levels (25th, 28th, 31st, etc.). These class feats can be selected from the Occult feats.


Admittedly, these epic progressions are very, very basic. They don't really have any of the Epic Class Features that can be found in the Epic Pathfinder handbook, so if anyone has any recommendations or suggestions, I would absolutely love to hear them.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> The quills seem to be mostly inspired by the bandersnatch, so...
> - The quills only affect creatures that attack with non-reach manufactured weapons, melee natural weapons, unarmed strikes or touch attacks...and it probably seems reasonable to also apply it to anyone using combat maneuvers on the evolutionist unless they have some way of using a combat maneuver through a weapon that would avoid the quills if used in a normal attack (some combat maneuvers allow this natively.)
> - This wasn't a question, but yes, it's 1d4 quills that deal 1d(whatever) damage each.  This is particularly relevant when the attacker has DR.
> - For convenience, one saving throw for all quills.
> - Full-round action to remove 1 quill, but I'll say that every 5 points over the Heal DC removes another quill.
> - No, the damage for removing a quill is fixed (but I will say that it ignores DR, on account of, y'know, it had to get through the DR already to get embedded in the first place).
> - My interpretation of Barbs was that each spine counts as a quill.


That all makes sense to me. I'll put finishing mechanical touches on my Manticore dude.

----------


## Ridai

> I think doubling up the epic progression is the most reasonable.


Thanks for the feedback, I made a note accordingly and added the extra Epic Skill Focus (to Survival).

----------


## AvatarVecna

*Spoiler: Tables are so big*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Manticore/Alex Paol
Evolutionist 21 | Freelancer 21

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke
Lei Korosuga
Sentinel 21 | Roguetotum 3/Swashbuckler 8/Kensai Bladebound Magus 10

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)

Dakrsidder
Meteon
Philosopher 11 / Silent Blade 10 | Extractor 9 / Paragon 2 / Awakened Dreamer 10

Angelpalm
Shun
Cryptic 20 / Aegis 1 | Helsman 7 / Sorcerer 11 / Machine Scion 10





Updated.

----------


## Yas392

Just when I thought my character is the tankiest, I find it amusing that he found his match in greenpotato and AvatarVecna characters who have twice the HP he has.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Just when I thought my character is the tankiest, I find it amusing that he found his match in greenpotato and AvatarVecna characters who have twice the HP he has.


DR 40/-, lots of ER, Regen 23, and half damage from B/P/S too.

----------


## Dakrsidder

Requesting the feats Midnight Recovery and Font of Inspiration, but am otherwise done with mechanics

----------


## MagneticDragon

> Just when I thought my character is the tankiest, I find it amusing that he found his match in greenpotato and AvatarVecna characters who have twice the HP he has.


To be fair, I think AvatarVecna missed the memo about this being a 'low optimization game'. 

After all, they are playing an Evolutionist | Freelancer character. Both are classes that get exponentially more powerful when played in a gestalt game, due to the mechanics of how the class functions. Playing both together in a single build is, as far as I am aware, the single most powerful 2-class combination possible in gestalt. Made even more overwhelming by the fact they are both extremely flexible classes with numerous different build options and abilities. 

Personally I am of the opinion that your character is much more in line with the level of power that Llyarden is looking for in this game, so I would not be worried by the fact that other individuals have twice as much hit points as yours has.

----------


## Yas392

> To be fair, I think AvatarVecna missed the memo about this being a 'low optimization game'. 
> 
> After all, they are playing an Evolutionist | Freelancer character. Both are classes that get exponentially more powerful when played in a gestalt game, due to the mechanics of how the class functions. Playing both together in a single build is, as far as I am aware, the single most powerful 2-class combination possible in gestalt. Made even more overwhelming by the fact they are both extremely flexible classes with numerous different build options and abilities. 
> 
> Personally I am of the opinion that your character is much more in line with the level of power that Llyarden is looking for in this game, so I would not be worried by the fact that other individuals have twice as much hit points as yours has.


I am not worried one bit. That seems to be my intent to keep my numbers as low as possible, avoid auto-win abilities like special senses, rocket tag and broken abilities to focus on my character's specialization and enable him to get into range to do that. Getting into higher optimization means more book-keeping, something I would rather not wrap my mind around especially at this level.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> To be fair, I think AvatarVecna missed the memo about this being a 'low optimization game'. 
> 
> After all, they are playing an Evolutionist | Freelancer character. Both are classes that get exponentially more powerful when played in a gestalt game, due to the mechanics of how the class functions. Playing both together in a single build is, as far as I am aware, the single most powerful 2-class combination possible in gestalt. Made even more overwhelming by the fact they are both extremely flexible classes with numerous different build options and abilities. 
> 
> Personally I am of the opinion that your character is much more in line with the level of power that Llyarden is looking for in this game, so I would not be worried by the fact that other individuals have twice as much hit points as yours has.


I didn't miss the memo, I just don't confuse low optimization with low numbers. I made a beatstick with no magic and no magic items.

----------


## AvatarVecna

Like, I really don't know what to tell you. The premise of the game is that we're about as strong as the strongest adventurers on record, and we've put in about as much effort as them, but we're weirder and less marketable so we're not the famous ones.

----------


## Genth

Kia Ora Llyarden, was hoping to get a steer on this question:




> Would a Stormshifter Huay (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Stormshifter), an Akashic Class archetype where you shapeshift into elementals while also creating elemental storms around you, I.e. *becoming* a storm be considered Esoteric? I don't tend to build in complexity for the sake of complexity, and am more interested in thematic esoterica. Otherwise I find I end up with a bundle of limbs and meaningless pools in search of a character  😆 
> 
> I'd be looking to combine it with something like Aurora Soul Mystic, to have an elemental storm that punches you with other elemental powers, though I'm looking for other punchy classes that have more interesting thematic connections.

----------


## Llyarden

> Kia Ora Llyarden, was hoping to get a steer on this question:


Whoops, sorry.  Stormshifter sounds cool to me. :)

----------


## MagneticDragon

> I am not worried one bit. That seems to be my intent to keep my numbers as low as possible, avoid auto-win abilities like special senses, rocket tag and broken abilities to focus on my character's specialization and enable him to get into range to do that. Getting into higher optimization means more book-keeping, something I would rather not wrap my mind around especially at this level.


I do understand what you mean. My character has many moving parts already, thanks to the Kineticist's Utility Talents and Infusions, Spheres of Power and Might from the Magus, as well as Manuevers. Plus I went Wealth of Spirit for the Specalites from the Focus your Chi, as they looked very fun as well. Admittedly, the Specialites were likely much easier to figure out than playing the 1 million gold coins we have been given. But I digress, trading one of the classes out for the Freelancer would have simply increased the book keeping significantly.

Better to keep the builds simple and straight forward, especially for a low-optimization game. 




> I didn't miss the memo, I just don't confuse low optimization with low numbers. I made a beatstick with no magic and no magic items.





> Like, I really don't know what to tell you. The premise of the game is that we're about as strong as the strongest adventurers on record, and we've put in about as much effort as them, but we're weirder and less marketable so we're not the famous ones.


You have 800 hit points, DR 40/-, 23 Regeneration and half damage from physical damage. Having just _one_ of those attributes at Level 21 is impressive. Having all four of them? On top of hitting for *128d6* damage with your primary attack? With a 180ft range increment?

I am sorry my friend, but simply because you do not have magic, does not mean you are low optimization. When your numbers are as high as what you possess. It does not matter that you are a beatstrick with no magic or items.

----------


## samduke

> Just when I thought my character is the tankiest, I find it amusing that he found his match in greenpotato and AvatarVecna characters who have twice the HP he has.





> To be fair, I think AvatarVecna missed the memo about this being a 'low optimization game'. 
> After all, they are playing an Evolutionist | Freelancer character. Both are classes that get exponentially more powerful when played in a gestalt game, due to the mechanics of how the class functions. Playing both together in a single build is, as far as I am aware, the single most powerful 2-class combination possible in gestalt. Made even more overwhelming by the fact they are both extremely flexible classes with numerous different build options and abilities. 
> Personally I am of the opinion that your character is much more in line with the level of power that Llyarden is looking for in this game, so I would not be worried by the fact that other individuals have twice as much hit points as yours has.





> I am not worried one bit. That seems to be my intent to keep my numbers as low as possible, avoid auto-win abilities like special senses, rocket tag and broken abilities to focus on my character's specialization and enable him to get into range to do that. Getting into higher optimization means more book-keeping, something I would rather not wrap my mind around especially at this level.





> I didn't miss the memo, I just don't confuse low optimization with low numbers. I made a beatstick with no magic and no magic items.


well this is why I asked the GM to put up a sample monster for target numbers reasons.

I agree that Low Optimization does not equal low numbers, a few factors that one must consider this is a Gesalt game, so Optimization tends to occur, this is a EPIC level 21 game where Optimization tends to occur combine both and you get low Optimization without much effort mid optimization is more likely to occur and some efforts for high optimization with full OP Optimization being a few beyond that.


Edited

*Spoiler: Tables are so big*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Manticore/Alex Paol
Evolutionist 21 | Freelancer 21

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke Primary
Lilliana Hesporath
Legendary Fighter (Steelbound Soldier) 21 // Monk (Qinggong Zen) 21

samduke Alternate
Lei Korosuga
Sentinel 21 | Roguetotum 3/Swashbuckler 8/Kensai Bladebound Magus 10

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)

Dakrsidder
Meteon
Philosopher 11 / Silent Blade 10 | Extractor 9 / Paragon 2 / Awakened Dreamer 10

Angelpalm
Shun
Cryptic 20 / Aegis 1 | Helsman 7 / Sorcerer 11 / Machine Scion 10





Updated

----------


## Volthawk

Yeah, not commenting on specific characters but some guidance numbers-wise would be appreciated. I've been a little out of the loop in terms of epic game standards so I'm kind of lost in the woods when it comes to whether a given character's numbers are fitting for the game or too high or means they're going to struggle or what. I've been going through a few concepts and while most were passed over for me just not feeling them, some did have things where I didn't take something (or moved on entirely) because I wasn't sure if it fit the low op requirement.

These things are highly subjective, after all, and while numbers aren't the be all and end all I would like to know if I just shouldn't bother with attack rolls if I can't get the bonus to a point where they'll have good odds against the things the GM's planning to send at us, for instance, or if I'd be better off not making the directly fighty characters I've been leaning towards and leaning more utility and non-blasty casting so that the numbers matter less.

----------


## Llyarden

> well this is why I asked the GM to put up a sample monster for target numbers reasons.


I thought about it, but fundamentally it's mostly irrelevant.  For one thing, target numbers can't encompass the power of non-damaging effects (a saving throw of DC40 vs being dazed one round is rather different to a saving throw vs being permanently dazed, for instance), and for another when I'm explicitly asking for interesting/dynamic/whatever builds I expect peoples' bonuses will fluctuate rather significantly.  But more importantly, anyone who was invested in optimising their character would just sidestep the target numbers with rerolls, imposing penalties on the enemies, etc.

That said, apparently I forgot to include it in the Big 16 this time so it is worth making clear my opinion on the matter: I expect all players, if accepted, to be willing to tone their builds down or otherwise make adjustments to a level agreed upon by the group as a whole.  If someone gets into the game and then proves unwilling to do so, then I'll just remove them from the game.  I'm sure there will be people in this thread willing to join as replacement players if that happens.

If people really want numbers, though, once I finish my GMPC build I'll put some rough estimates for her basic numbers, but people can quite happily end up above or below those if they have other stuff that isn't reflected in their raw numbers.

----------


## AvatarVecna

{scrubbed}

----------


## Volthawk

> If people really want numbers, though, once I finish my GMPC build I'll put some rough estimates for her basic numbers, but people can quite happily end up above or below those if they have other stuff that isn't reflected in their raw numbers.


That would be appreciated. A character could have all the interesting rider effects and the like in the world, but it won't matter if it depends on landing a melee attack and it turns out that said character was built so their attack bonus was significantly below what the GM expected so he barely hits, for instance. 

It'd just be nice to have some kind of mutual reference point at all, even if the nature of the game means it isn't that simple and there may be some adjustment. Particularly since the mix of brews we have here means that some are all about pumping basic numbers high while others are much stingier about that sort of thing.




> Plus I went Wealth of Spirit for the Specalites from the Focus your Chi, as they looked very fun as well. Admittedly, the Specialites were likely much easier to figure out than playing the 1 million gold coins we have been given.


It's funny, although I requested that in the first place and did use Wealth of Spirit for my first idea (might revisit that, looks like things I thought may be issues there aren't actually that bad), when I changed to ideas using other systems I completely forgot about the fact that Wealth of Spirit could still be slotted in instead of using the Oath system equivalent. Might be a good idea, this current character I'm working on* would actually really benefit from the Chi benefits to weapons, and I do like that system as a whole. Thanks for mentioning that and reminding me.

*Still deciding exact classes - the actual classes those mechanics are for, or using archetypes that give other classes the mechanic (maybe I should actually see how Freelancer works and see if that can just do both at the same time, still never actually looked into that class), current setup is Striker//Armiger for an all-martial take - but the point is using both the Sequence and Tension mechanics from Spheres for a character that's constantly gaining and spending tension and making/finishing sequence combos for various fun advantages.




> {scrub the post, scrub the quote}


I just don't want to be in a situation where I'm trying to do a similar kind of thing as someone but something that's a challenge for them is unsurmountable for me, or vice versa, and the kind of adjustments the GM was talking about earlier would mean big changes for one or both characters. Maybe that makes me an idiot or a <expletive> or whatever it is you're implying here, but that's my thinking.

----------


## MagneticDragon

> I thought about it, but fundamentally it's mostly irrelevant.  For one thing, target numbers can't encompass the power of non-damaging effects (a saving throw of DC40 vs being dazed one round is rather different to a saving throw vs being permanently dazed, for instance), and for another when I'm explicitly asking for interesting/dynamic/whatever builds I expect peoples' bonuses will fluctuate rather significantly.  But more importantly, anyone who was invested in optimising their character would just sidestep the target numbers with rerolls, imposing penalties on the enemies, etc.


From what I understand of Optimization - which, admittedly, mostly comes from my experience with 5E instead of the 3.P system we are working with - the power of raw numbers tends to fluctuate on how powerful and potent they are.

You are correct, of course, that numbers are never the entire story. Especially not when comparing non-damaging effects. A Paladin with a Save DC of 17 is rather impressive at level 5, if you do not mind me speaking about 5E. But the strongest effect that save DC is attached too is something like their Oath of Conquest's Conquering Presence. Inflicting the Frightened Condition on all of the enemies of a combat encounter is useful, don't get me wrong. But a Wizard with a Save DC of 15 is going to get far more use out of throwing down a Hypnotic Pattern to outright incapacitate the entire encounter and make them easy pickings. 

At the same time, however, once an individual's numbers hit a certain threshold, especially in regards to _damage_, these numbers tend to become utterly overwhelming. To use AvatarVecna's character as a perfect example. Their Spines have a +52 to hit, there are 7 of them, and each one individually does 128d6+15 damage. For the record. A single attack from one of these Spines has an average damage of 463. Both my character, as well as Yas' character, are not exactly fragile individuals. I have the Way of the Dragon's Skin, the Guardian Sphere, and a decent health pool. Yas has more health than my character and... hopefully, other ways to make themselves tankier? Regardless. Despite both of these characters not exactly being fragile. AvatarVecna is more than capable of killing the two of us in a single attack. Let alone the 7 attacks they can make, at a 160ft range, in a single round. 

Numbers do not tell the whole story. Your example of a 1 round daze vs a permanent daze makes that very clear. But when the numbers reach a point where they say 'I can 1-round even the biggest baddest monsters in the monster manual'? Well. I do not think anything else really matters at that point, do they?

Or at least, that is my understanding of the situation.




> That said, apparently I forgot to include it in the Big 16 this time so it is worth making clear my opinion on the matter: I expect all players, if accepted, to be willing to tone their builds down or otherwise make adjustments to a level agreed upon by the group as a whole.  If someone gets into the game and then proves unwilling to do so, then I'll just remove them from the game.  I'm sure there will be people in this thread willing to join as replacement players if that happens.


A very important distinction to make. Though I do worry that the differences between some builds as they stand might force someone to make their character from scratch simply to bring them down to a feasible level. 

Oh and I also made Epic Progressions for the Legendary Magus and Legendary Kineticist. Are they acceptable Llyarden?

----------


## Llyarden

> A very important distinction to make. Though I do worry that the differences between some builds as they stand might force someone to make their character from scratch simply to bring them down to a feasible level. 
> 
> Oh and I also made Epic Progressions for the Legendary Magus and Legendary Kineticist. Are they acceptable Llyarden?


Sorry, missed that, yes those sound good.

----------


## grumblyarcher

Update on the collective, I'm mostly done with the individual elements of the squad. I still need to figure out some talent choices for the core (I'm thinking mostly Protection and Life talents). They've got solid ACs, but their attack bonuses are a little low compared to what I've seen from the others. This should be improved by the sundry abilities from Collective and the leadership sphere stuff making it so that they are constantly aiding each other.

Flex
Heavy Weapon
Medic
Sniper
Melee

The idea is that they are best deployed against a numerically larger enemy, being able to output something like six attacks a round or just pummel a target into the dirt if there is only one. Their HP is relatively low but that's why there is a dedicated medic and why I'm grabbing the life sphere stuff. Also I'm able to shunt some of the damage between individuals so hopefully I can put a damper on the most massive damage.

I've kept the individual members of the squad fairly simple, otherwise I'd go insane trying to keep it all straight, and my talent choices haven't exactly been optimized but that's neither here nor there.

----------


## angelpalm

@Llyarden, how much of the world building are we able to add to?    

I want to create the crime syndicate that my character is loyal to.    Give you some baddies/mooks to use as plot hooks and all that.   Also what do you have in mind for the gnpc?   

Trying to figure out if I want the person that will serve as my pc's liaison from the syndicate to the typical sleavy weirdo or someone a bit more noble.   Can we create stuff like diseases/drugs and what have you?   I want my pc's younger sibling to be inflicted with some incurable disease that is related to the dimensional energies related to the crash.  I also want to make the syndicate/mafia or whatever been around before the crash.   Have them be the type that force ppl to become adventures or use their ill gained artifacts to stay in power and keep the government from moving in on them.   I also want my pc to struggle with addiction if that is appropriate.   Like have him be on the same pain killers or whatever he was getting illegally for his little sister to help her with her disease before he was able to scrape up money to get her proper treatment.


edit: yeah yeah i know its all cliche but you gotta go with what works lol

----------


## Duqueen

Here goes a WIP for a red bull game addict teen that is living the dream, in a very obnoxious way, after getting his hands on world shattering powers.


Edited

*Spoiler: Tables are so big*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Manticore/Alex Paol
Evolutionist 21 | Freelancer 21

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke Primary
Lilliana Hesporath
Legendary Fighter (Steelbound Soldier) 21 // Monk (Qinggong Zen) 21

samduke Alternate
Lei Korosuga
Sentinel 21 | Roguetotum 3/Swashbuckler 8/Kensai Bladebound Magus 10

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)

Dakrsidder
Meteon
Philosopher 11 / Silent Blade 10 | Extractor 9 / Paragon 2 / Awakened Dreamer 10

Angelpalm
Shun
Cryptic 20 / Aegis 1 | Helsman 7 / Sorcerer 11 / Machine Scion 10

Duqueen
Kaiser
Freelancer(Monsterkin) 21 | Braggart 21

----------


## Volthawk

Mechanically speaking, is our mythic rank 1 a new thing or something we acquired at an earlier level? Just wondering for the purposes of prereqs for that bonus feat you get for MR 1.

EDIT: Also, if we did get MR 1 at level 21, can that bonus feat be an epic feat? It just says "one mythic feat or non-mythic feat", given that those rules we're written with epic existing in mind, so I guess it's up to you. I don't think it matters for me either way, but worth knowing.

----------


## paradox26

Query for Llyarden. 
I know that the Chaos Cultist line of prestige classes is permitted. But I also know that hi tech stuff is not allowed. The problem I have is that the Chaos Cultist line of prestige classes has wargear as significant options for their level progression abilities. You select from certain abilities, and tech stuff is the most useful of that. I only need three items, really, a sword, armour, and a pistol, so I can wield the sword int he other hand. The pistol options by level 18 (where the classes max out) are reasonably powerful, but aren't really upgradeable using gold. I was wondering if you can double check the material, particularly the wargear from the Chaos Lady and Demon Princess prestige classes, to make sure they are acceptable? I don't really need much in the way of extra equipment beyond the armour and weapons, so I may take an Oath of Poverty or similar, though that probably isn't necessary either.

----------


## Yas392

> Like, I really don't know what to tell you. The premise of the game is that we're about as strong as the strongest adventurers on record, and we've put in about as much effort as them, but we're weirder and less marketable so we're not the famous ones.


Strongest does not mean cranking up digits and having immunities to the point of overshadowing the party by a mile. That is not the premise of low optimization. The way I see it is scaling up to the party/manageable numbers as Llyarden confirmed. Hence, the reason I hold back on adding increments/keeping my numbers low.




> I do understand what you mean. My character has many moving parts already, thanks to the Kineticist's Utility Talents and Infusions, Spheres of Power and Might from the Magus, as well as Manuevers. Plus I went Wealth of Spirit for the Specalites from the Focus your Chi, as they looked very fun as well. Admittedly, the Specialites were likely much easier to figure out than playing the 1 million gold coins we have been given. But I digress, trading one of the classes out for the Freelancer would have simply increased the book keeping significantly.
> 
> Better to keep the builds simple and straight forward, especially for a low-optimization game.


I disagree on the freelancer raising book keeping significantly. Freelancer increasing book keeping is true if the players select magic/maneuver system or cherry pick a copious amount of non-scaling abilities. Players can cut down book keeping if they select high cost, easy to track, scaling abilities. Sneak Attack and Channel Energy are two that comes into mind. Selecting five will eat through the JP pool and leaving spare change for a few finishing touches.

*@Llyarden* For my character's epic progression abilities, here is what I propose.

*Spoiler: Epic Progression for Freelancer and Mime*
Show

*Epic Freelancer:* Double JP gained at 21st level and every level thereafter.

*Epic Mime:* Can use Mimicry in antimagic field/dead magic zone and effects functions as normal. 3/day at 21st level and can use the ability one additional time per day every even level thereafter.

----------


## Llyarden

> @Llyarden, how much of the world building are we able to add to?


You're welcome to make up stuff, that's why I've left the setting fairly vague.




> Mechanically speaking, is our mythic rank 1 a new thing or something we acquired at an earlier level? Just wondering for the purposes of prereqs for that bonus feat you get for MR 1.
> 
> EDIT: Also, if we did get MR 1 at level 21, can that bonus feat be an epic feat? It just says "one mythic feat or non-mythic feat", given that those rules we're written with epic existing in mind, so I guess it's up to you. I don't think it matters for me either way, but worth knowing.


Given the power of epic feats I think it's best to say that mythic feat slots can't be used to take them.  Your mythic rank can be acquired whenever in your progression is the most convenient.




> Query for Llyarden. 
> I know that the Chaos Cultist line of prestige classes is permitted. But I also know that hi tech stuff is not allowed. The problem I have is that the Chaos Cultist line of prestige classes has wargear as significant options for their level progression abilities.


Sorry, I should've been clearer on this.  Mundane technological gear doesn't function in the Dungeons or against monsters.  If you actually have an ability that gives you technological gear, then it works fine.




> *@Llyarden* For my character's epic progression abilities, here is what I propose.
> 
> *Spoiler: Epic Progression for Freelancer and Mime*
> Show
> 
> *Epic Freelancer:* Double JP gained at 21st level and every level thereafter.
> 
> *Epic Mime:* Can use Mimicry in antimagic field/dead magic zone and effects functions as normal. 3/day at 21st level and can use the ability one additional time per day every even level thereafter.


Once I worked out which of the two mimes you meant ( :Small Tongue: ), those sound good.

----------


## paradox26

Perfect. That was how I hoped you would rule, but I didn't want to assume things. Thanks for the quick response.

----------


## Duqueen

> ...
> 
> *@Llyarden* For my character's epic progression abilities, here is what I propose.
> 
> *Spoiler: Epic Progression for Freelancer and Mime*
> Show
> 
> *Epic Freelancer:* Double JP gained at 21st level and every level thereafter.
> 
> *Epic Mime:* Can use Mimicry in antimagic field/dead magic zone and effects functions as normal. 3/day at 21st level and can use the ability one additional time per day every even level thereafter.


*@Llyarden*
Since I am also going freelancer epic, wouldn't doubling JP after 20th be too much? Most classes get, at most, an epic bonus feat every 2 levels, a freelancer can already get a feat every level and still have 20 JP left. And since you could copy the bonus feat feature from another class, a regular freelancer could take 3 epic feats every level, or 6 if you double the JP.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> *@Llyarden*
> Since I am also going freelancer epic, wouldn't doubling JP after 20th be too much? Most classes get, at most, an epic bonus feat every 2 levels, a freelancer can already get a feat every level and still have 20 JP left. And since you could copy the bonus feat feature from another class, a regular freelancer could take 3 epic feats every level, or 6 if you double the JP.


I agree on this point. Freelancer copies abilities from other classes. If you're a Freepancer 14 and you copy the class features of a rogue 14, it's objectively true that you're not falling behind the rogue.  If you're a freelancer 40 and you're copying the class features of a druid 40, it's objectively true that you're not falling behind the druid. More powerful features aren't more expensive features, you just can't buy higher level features until you reach that level. It's basically impossible for Freelancer to fall behind except on purpose, it doesn't need extra points to "catch up".

----------


## Llyarden

I already allowed Librim Eternia, so as far as I can work out getting two classes' worth of features per level would more or less be on par with the Chosen, given that of course Freelancer's strength is the ability to cherrypick so it makes sense that it doesn't get the Chosen's two-and-a-half classes per level and extra feats.

That is a good point about the epic feats though.  Those should be more expensive than ordinary feats.

----------


## Duqueen

> I already allowed Librim Eternia, so as far as I can work out getting two classes' worth of features per level would more or less be on par with the Chosen, given that of course Freelancer's strength is the ability to cherrypick so it makes sense that it doesn't get the Chosen's two-and-a-half classes per level and extra feats.
> 
> That is a good point about the epic feats though.  Those should be more expensive than ordinary feats.


You are the gm, so it is your call, but freelancer is not able to buy "aligned classes" ability, since they are not ex, su or sla, so it can't copy chosen's advancement ability.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> You are the gm, so it is your call, but freelancer is not able to buy "aligned classes" ability, since they are not ex, su or sla, so it can't copy chosen's advancement ability.


I mean it also can't buy abilities from prestige classes so.

----------


## Llyarden

Yeah, what I meant is that with 30JP you should be able to get abilities equivalent to, or slightly inferior to, taking a level in a normal class.  By extension, since from 21st level a non-freelancer could take Chosen and get 2-and-a-half classes and half an epic feat per level (on average), it seems reasonable that an epic freelancer should be able to get an equivalent number of abilities per level.

Of course, this all assumes that the freelancer is balanced with ordinary classes to begin with and my hypothesis about being able to more or less duplicate being in another class by investing all your JP into doing so is correct, but I'm going to take the liberty of presuming that it is given that a number of people have chosen to use it.

----------


## samduke

> Yeah, what I meant is that with 30JP you should be able to get abilities equivalent to, or slightly inferior to, taking a level in a normal class.  By extension, since from 21st level a non-freelancer could take Chosen and get 2-and-a-half classes and half an epic feat per level (on average), it seems reasonable that an epic freelancer should be able to get an equivalent number of abilities per level.
> 
> Of course, this all assumes that the freelancer is balanced with ordinary classes to begin with and my hypothesis about being able to more or less duplicate being in another class by investing all your JP into doing so is correct, but I'm going to take the liberty of presuming that it is given that a number of people have chosen to use it.


I took a look into freelancer and for roughly 236 jp of 660 jp you can have a class that counts its levels as a rogue,fighter,paladin, have a D12 hit die, 10+ skill points, full bab, all good saves, fighter based feats, rogue based improved evasion, paladin based smite, rogue sneak attack, and this class at 20 levels gains all the goodness of three classes with no drawbacks.

my personal take on the class it was OP, and not low optimization

----------


## Yas392

How are you getting 236 JP for all of those combined? From my numbers, it should be higher.

Sneak Attack (120 JP)
Fighter Feats class feature (120 JP)
Paladin Smite (90 JP)
D12 Hit Dice & Full BAB (25 JP)
All Good Saves (40 JP)
10 Skill Points/LVL (6 JP)
Rogue Improved Evasion (10 JP)

411 JP in total.

----------


## Duqueen

> How are you getting 236 JP for all of those combined? From my numbers, it should be higher.
> 
> Sneak Attack (120 JP)
> Fighter Feats class feature (120 JP)
> Paladin Smite (90 JP)
> D12 Hit Dice & Full BAB (25 JP)
> All Good Saves (60 JP)
> 10 Skill Points/LVL (6 JP)
> Rogue Improved Evasion (10 JP)
> ...


+30 to count levels as fighter, rogue, paladin (necessary for specific feats and rogue advanced talents I guess)

However you wouldn't spend 120 jp for fighter feats, it is not an improving class feature (the same as the ffd20 fighter, just 10 jp for every fighter talent that you trade for a combat feat, which you could also spend a lot more than 100 jp, you could go the whole 600 jp on combat feats).

----------


## Yas392

Already accounted for in my calculations. I miscalculated the saves as the class has one good save so final numbers should be 411 JP.

----------


## Volthawk

Probably going to make an alt like samduke, because the sequence/tension guy is definitely something I'd like to figure out, but this character - my original idea, based entirely around the chi rework - is easier to put together and feels closer to what others have strength-wise. Not 100% finished yet, figuring out traits and the last few feat slots (and writing up fluff, naturally), but most of it is done - enough to see basically all his abilities.

Their main thing, besides generally doing sneaky git things, is inflicting conditions - both classes have (very similar but slightly different - there's a summary down in notes) ways of adding conditions to their attacks, while their illusions and fog clouds can have various conditions attached to them. They're also very fast and hyperaware, because that's the way the chi rework goes and Monk in particular pushes that aspect quite a lot. Idea is basically to have them skirmishing about, running/teleporting around the place, hitting pressure points and disrupting chi and whatnot to mess people up and knock them out, and pulling out various ninja tricks when in trouble. They're also a pretty good healer, if that will ever matter given epic characters have a good chance of covering their own healing - I figure the main use of actually using Chi Healing to heal will be removing conditions and reviving and such rather than dealing with actual HP damage. Fluffwise, the way I'm feeling will probably lean more towards the monk part of the character than ninja.

Some relevant questions for the GM and the epic progressions for approval, along with a table update:
*Spoiler: Epic Progressions*
Show


This has little brewing by me - the class feature progression is from the original brew, I've just added in the prowess/damage progression taken directly from the original classes' entries (basing it off rogue for ninja) in the epic pathfinder book. Lemme know if this seems fine or if any of it is too strong or could be boosted or whatever.

*Epic Monk (Chi)*
*Spoiler*
Show

Level
Prowess
Damage Bonus
Special

21
-
+1
Speciality

22
+1
+1
Bonus class feat

23
+1
+2
Chi Healing (x11)

24
+2
+2
Speciality

25
+2
+3
Bonus class feat

26
+3
+3
Chi Healing (x12)

27
+3
+4
Speciality

28
+4
+4
Bonus class feat

29
+4
+5
Chi Healing (x13)

30
+5
+5
Speciality



*Speciality:* The epic monk continues to gain specialities at every third level, following the usual restrictions.

*Bonus class feat:* The epic monk gains a bonus feat at 22nd level, and an additional bonus feat per 3 levels, selected from Combat or Skill.

*Chi Healing:* The epic ninja continues to increase its Chi Healing multiplier, increasing it by 1 at 23rd level and every 3 levels afterwards.



*Epic Ninja (Chi)*
*Spoiler*
Show

Level
Prowess
Damage Bonus
Special

21
-
+1
Speciality

22
+1
+1
Bonus class feat

23
+1
+1
Sneak Attack +9d6

24
+2
+1
Speciality

25
+2
+2
Bonus class feat

26
+3
+2
Sneak Attack +10d6

27
+3
+2
Speciality

28
+4
+2
Bonus class feat

29
+4
+3
Sneak Attack +11d6

30
+5
+3
Speciality


*Speciality:* The epic ninja continues to gain specialities at every third level, following the usual restrictions.

*Bonus class feat:* The epic ninja gains a bonus feat at 22nd level, and an additional bonus feat per 3 levels, selected from Combat or Skill.

*Sneak Attack:* The epic ninja continues to progress sneak attack, gaining an additional die at 23rd level and every 3 levels afterwards.



Notes:
 - Speciality-wise, I also get 1/level from Wealth of Spirit (and that one ignores class requirements, so I'll use it to pick up the Samurai-specific specialities). In total, I'll run out of specialities to pick at...level 32. Faster if I take Additional Speciality as we go (probably not necessary, none of the remaining are that important thematically that I'd want them faster), and dropping Additional Speciality from my current character would extend that to level 34. Seems like being fine for the next 10 levels or so means it won't be a problem for this game (unless you're expecting us to actually get 10+ levels in this game, I suppose).
 - Chi will progress as normal (1/level for me and anyone who's taken Wealth of Spirit), so Martial Arts will progress as detailed in the class table (the brew already extends it to Chi 30) - so next level I'll get another +1 enchantment to attacks/AC, +5ft movement and reach, a small damage dice improvement (average +1 damage), and the ability to make weapon damage untyped, and then in three levels it'll improve again slightly differently (small crit boost instead of reach boost, force attacks), and so on. As mentioned, this is also the case for anyone with Wealth of Spirit.



*Spoiler: Mechanics Questions*
Show


Ghost Walk allows you to activate Ghost Step in a way that means 1 minute of use drains 1 round of duration. At this level, I have more than 60 rounds of use, and it's tracked per hour instead of per day. Does that mean that, if Ghost Walk is used, this character can be perpetually invisible (incorporeal/ethereal drains duration too fast for perpetual use), or would they have to cancel it and wait out the minute cooldown every hour?Way of the Dragon Skin (obtained with Wealth of Spirit specialities, given they ignore class prereqs) gives the option to "redirect up to half of any damage taken from your hit points to a pool of hit point healing you possess (such as a monk's Chi Healing or a paladin's Lay on Hands)." Given my character has Chi Healing, and the ability says "redirect", does that mean that so long as I have space in my healing pool (keeping in mind that it can be spent offensively on conditions and damage), my guy basically takes half damage? Or am I getting hung up on redirect and I both take the full damage and fill up the pool. Wording strongly implies the former to me, but that seems very strong, but on the other hand the alternative choice there is basically doubling your HP (temp HP equal to max HP every encounter), and it may just be my sense of what's balanced or not getting hung up again. Would appreciate feedback on how you want this to work/if you're houseruling it a certain way.The Martial Arts Grandmaster feat is normally a Spirit-affecting feat, and thus mutually exclusive with any other Spirit-affecting feats. However, the effect the feat has on Spirit does nothing for me, since the Monk's Enlightenment is that but better. As such, can it be treated as not being Spirit-affecting? I'm not sure if I'll be taking it anyway (taking out redundant effects it's three feats, which will probably take up high-level slots, for +5 BAB and +12 to damage rolls - mainly on the table as a way to push up my numbers if it turns out they're low but not a preferable use of my feats), but worth knowing my options. The set of feats also give DR/-, but presumably that doesn't stack with the better DR Way of the Dragon Skin provides.On topics other than my specific class features, how are we handling languages? Linguistics being one of my class background skills meant I ended up with a fair few, and although Perfect Clarity means my character can understand and speak them all known languages still matter for reading and writing, to my understanding.



*Spoiler: Tables are so big*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Manticore/Alex Paol
Evolutionist 21 | Freelancer 21

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke Primary
Lilliana Hesporath
Legendary Fighter (Steelbound Soldier) 21 // Monk (Qinggong Zen) 21

samduke Alternate
Lei Korosuga
Sentinel 21 | Roguetotum 3/Swashbuckler 8/Kensai Bladebound Magus 10

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)

Dakrsidder
Meteon
Philosopher 11 / Silent Blade 10 | Extractor 9 / Paragon 2 / Awakened Dreamer 10

Angelpalm
Shun
Cryptic 20 / Aegis 1 | Helsman 7 / Sorcerer 11 / Machine Scion 10

Duqueen
Kaiser
Freelancer(Monsterkin) 21 | Braggart 21

Volthawk
Tobias Blackwood
Chi Monk 21// Chi Ninja 21





Not getting into the Freelancer discussion, don't know the class at well enough to give an informed opinion.

----------


## samduke

Ability Cost
Extraordinary, Spell-Like, or Supernatural abilities that improve by level cost 20 JP
Extraordinary, Spell-Like, or Supernatural abilities that dont improve by level cost 10 JP
Counting your Freelancer levels as a specific class costs 10 JP.
Capstones (level 20 abilities) cost 20 JP, regardless

However still at 431 JP of 660 jp level 20 the class more or less outshines 3 classes with the cherry picking of the best abilities from those classes

edit




> Probably going to make an alt like samduke


oh hey just for the record I may pull one or both pending if the GM posts a sample monster for target numbers reasons

----------


## MagneticDragon

> my personal take on the class it was OP, and not low optimization


Honestly, I fully agree. The Freelancer is OP, even without Gestalt. The Evolutionist meanwhile, is OP _with_ gestalt, due to how much effort you can dedicate into simply making your numbers go up in whichever way you please. 

*Spoiler: Tables are so big*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Manticore/Alex Paol
Evolutionist 21 | Freelancer 21

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke Primary
Lilliana Hesporath
Legendary Fighter (Steelbound Soldier) 21 // Monk (Qinggong Zen) 21

samduke Alternate
Lei Korosuga
Sentinel 21 | Roguetotum 3/Swashbuckler 8/Kensai Bladebound Magus 10

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)

Dakrsidder
Meteon
Philosopher 11 / Silent Blade 10 | Extractor 9 / Paragon 2 / Awakened Dreamer 10

Angelpalm
Shun
Cryptic 20 / Aegis 1 | Helsman 7 / Sorcerer 11 / Machine Scion 10

Duqueen
Kaiser
Freelancer(Monsterkin) 21 | Braggart 21

MagneticDragon
Ferrous the Magus
 Hexwielder Ruinous Blade Spellstriker Sublime Warmage War Scholar Legendary Magus 21 | Metakinetic Savant Cerebral Legendary Kineticist (Photokinesis/Chaokinesis/Vibrokinesis) 21

----------


## Denomar

Well, I've finally got that day off so I'm going to make some stuff today.  See ya on the flip side.

----------


## Llyarden

> Some relevant questions for the GM and the epic progressions for approval, along with a table update:
> 
> This has little brewing by me - the class feature progression is from the original brew, I've just added in the prowess/damage progression taken directly from the original classes' entries (basing it off rogue for ninja) in the epic pathfinder book. Lemme know if this seems fine or if any of it is too strong or could be boosted or whatever.


The epic progressions look good.




> Ghost Walk allows you to activate Ghost Step in a way that means 1 minute of use drains 1 round of duration. At this level, I have more than 60 rounds of use, and it's tracked per hour instead of per day. Does that mean that, if Ghost Walk is used, this character can be perpetually invisible (incorporeal/ethereal drains duration too fast for perpetual use), or would they have to cancel it and wait out the minute cooldown every hour?


I don't think you can refresh a resource you're actively using.  Not sure if that's an actual rule anywhere, but it feels like it makes some degree of sense.  But you could keep it active for more than 60 minutes if you have the appropriate number of rounds available before having to recharge.




> Way of the Dragon Skin (obtained with Wealth of Spirit specialities, given they ignore class prereqs) gives the option to "redirect up to half of any damage taken from your hit points to a pool of hit point healing you possess (such as a monk's Chi Healing or a paladin's Lay on Hands)." Given my character has Chi Healing, and the ability says "redirect", does that mean that so long as I have space in my healing pool (keeping in mind that it can be spent offensively on conditions and damage), my guy basically takes half damage? Or am I getting hung up on redirect and I both take the full damage and fill up the pool. Wording strongly implies the former to me, but that seems very strong, but on the other hand the alternative choice there is basically doubling your HP (temp HP equal to max HP every encounter), and it may just be my sense of what's balanced or not getting hung up again. Would appreciate feedback on how you want this to work/if you're houseruling it a certain way.


You redirect half the damage and suffer the other half, so yeah your hp is effectively doubled (which works out...actually less powerful to the 'temp hp every encounter' option, I guess.)




> The Martial Arts Grandmaster feat is normally a Spirit-affecting feat, and thus mutually exclusive with any other Spirit-affecting feats. However, the effect the feat has on Spirit does nothing for me, since the Monk's Enlightenment is that but better. As such, can it be treated as not being Spirit-affecting? I'm not sure if I'll be taking it anyway (taking out redundant effects it's three feats, which will probably take up high-level slots, for +5 BAB and +12 to damage rolls - mainly on the table as a way to push up my numbers if it turns out they're low but not a preferable use of my feats), but worth knowing my options. The set of feats also give DR/-, but presumably that doesn't stack with the better DR Way of the Dragon Skin provides.


Enlightenment isn't a feat, so you can take Martial Arts Grandmaster while having Enlightenment anyway.

DR/- usually stacks with other sources of DR/-.  I think QD even mentions that somewhere in the thread.




> On topics other than my specific class features, how are we handling languages? Linguistics being one of my class background skills meant I ended up with a fair few, and although Perfect Clarity means my character can understand and speak them all known languages still matter for reading and writing, to my understanding.


Real-world languages plus fantasy languages.  (I was kinda assuming that at this level people will be able to arrange some sort of comprehension effect.)

Also, since people keep asking, these are the very rough numbers for my GMPC character.  They absolutely do not adequately cover her full abilities or weaknesses, so some people could have higher or lower numbers while still being balanced with her in practice.

*Spoiler: Ragwitch*
Show

Basic Attack: +28-36 (avg damage 30-42)
Big Attack: ~230 damage plus basic attack
HP 477, DR(ish) 24-56/-
AC 35-52.
Fort +24-41, Ref +25-42, Will +25-42

----------


## Volthawk

> oh hey just for the record I may pull one or both pending if the GM posts a sample monster for target numbers reasons


Yeah, I'll probably settle on one or the other once I digest things balance-wise. 




> The epic progressions look good.


Awesome.




> I don't think you can refresh a resource you're actively using.  Not sure if that's an actual rule anywhere, but it feels like it makes some degree of sense.  But you could keep it active for more than 60 minutes if you have the appropriate number of rounds available before having to recharge.


Yeah, I don't think it's stated anywhere - don't think anything official runs into this situation - but that makes sense, yeah.




> You redirect half the damage and suffer the other half, so yeah your hp is effectively doubled (which works out...actually less powerful to the 'temp hp every encounter' option, I guess.)


I suppose so, but it fuels my resources so I'll take it instead of the temp hp option. More interesting, anyway.




> Enlightenment isn't a feat, so you can take Martial Arts Grandmaster while having Enlightenment anyway.
> 
> DR/- usually stacks with other sources of DR/-.  I think QD even mentions that somewhere in the thread.


My character currently has Unity of Spirit, a Spirit-boosting feat, and that wouldn't play nice with MA Grandmaster. In any case, looking at your rough numbers I won't need that feat (might not even need Unity of Spirit, looking at it), so it's a moot question. Like I said, those feats were a "oh crap I need more attack and damage" option, so I'll happily leave them behind and take more interesting things instead. Good to know about the DR, though.




> Real-world languages plus fantasy languages.  (I was kinda assuming that at this level people will be able to arrange some sort of comprehension effect.)


Yeah, I have a comprehension effect (equivalent to Tongue of Sun and Moon),but as mentioned it doesn't apply to writing so I should probably have the languages I know properly written down.




> Also, since people keep asking, these are the very rough numbers for my GMPC character.  They absolutely do not adequately cover her full abilities or weaknesses, so some people could have higher or lower numbers while still being balanced with her in practice.
> 
> *Spoiler: Ragwitch*
> Show
> 
> Basic Attack: +28-36 (avg damage 30-42)
> Big Attack: ~230 damage plus basic attack
> HP 477, DR(ish) 24-56/-
> AC 35-52.
> Fort +24-41, Ref +25-42, Will +25-42


Reassuring. Mine is higher on the AC from but on the lower end of saves and less raw health/DR, which works out about right for this kind of character. Damage for this character is highly variable, depending on SA applicability and how much damage is applied through Waves in the Pool, but it doesn't seem like it'd be too much (if anything on the low side, which works out fine given my condition-applying thing).

----------


## Ridai

> *Spoiler: Ragwitch*
> Show
> 
> Basic Attack: +28-36 (avg damage 30-42)
> Big Attack: ~230 damage plus basic attack
> HP 477, DR(ish) 24-56/-
> AC 35-52.
> Fort +24-41, Ref +25-42, Will +25-42


Well, let's see how Danny compares:
*Spoiler: Danny stats*
Show

*Basic attack with an improvised weapon:* +38 (avg damage, assuming 1d10 one-handed, 3d6 two-handed, since Improvised Weapon Mastery upgrades by one step: 1-hand 23.5, 2-hand 34.5)

*Disabling touch (at-will, standard action):* +33 touch (ignores hardness and DR, set damage without bonuses from external sources... uh, to be determined, but default formulas with Skill Mastery Take 18 lead to 116 damage and 2 Str damage, and 174 vs constructs and -4 Str penalty. If I put an Epic Skill Focus on Disable Device, this becomes 140/210)

*HP* 273, no DR, no miss chances
*AC* 41 (44 vs ranged attacks)
*Fort* +18, *Ref* +24, *Will* +22


Offense seems okay, but maybe lacking in huge burst damage, since he either uses improvised weapons because his players finds them funny, or he uses Disabling touch, which does the same damage every time.

Defense is a lot lower, since he has d8 and relatively normal Con. AC on the lower end of the range, saves all a little to a lot lower, no DR since I didn't have sources on that. Also notably, the only immunity Danny has is Freedom of Movement, since I didn't want to engage in the immunity rocket tag. However, the first time in an encounter an attack or spell would kill Danny, it doesn't, instead doing nothing/dealing no damage. That may not mean much in epic when there are 6+ attack meatgrinder enemies tho.

I'm generally aiming to only really fill the non-social skillmonkey role while having a decent attack at the moment, but his role can be adjusted by picking different Exaggerated Skills (and adding them later via epic feats). If higher numbers are needed, I'd need to see how much that can be accomplished with items, but he has about 300k or so I can easily turn into money, since I blew about 1/3 of the budget on going very fast for no reason except because it amuses me. Exaggerated Concentration can provide a lot of save bonuses and attack/spell deflection, while going harder on Cha and taking Exaggerated Perform (dance) can let him add Cha to AC, get Exaggerated Use Magic Devices to get free double-ups on item slots etc.

----------


## Hamste

Hmmm, interesting on the comparison stats. My AC is comparable once the natural armor is buffed with ironskin. My DR is a bit low even with wildshape (Unless I can find a non-unique M human shaped plant with better DR than a green man) but reincarnation hopefully covers it. Basic attack sucks but attacking isn't the point of the Karma build so should be ok. The only really concerning thing is the lack of reflex save but at least reflexes don't tend to be instant death.

----------


## QuantumFlash

I'm still definitely in the process of building but it seems the power level of my as-yet-unnamed character is not too bad.  Attack and damage are comparable to Ragwitch''s standard attacks, but he is limited purely to melee and has a powerful but double edged ability: he is so heavily antimagic that he cannot use any grade of magic equipment (except artifacts if we happen across them) since he possesses a permanent AMF and other antimagic abilities like spell immunity.  For the same reason he also can't benefit from virtually any buffs unless they are also non-magical, and tends to disrupt even allied spellcasting with a secondary aura. On the other hand he possesses significant fast healing and regen, and is almost impossible to kill. So basically massively tanky but limited to getting in close to beat things up.  

On a semi-related note though, for abilities like the permanent passive auras, are those things which could be toggled at will or are they stuck always-on.

----------


## samduke

@ Llyarden

okay I need to ask this where Oaths have been allowed

Oath Boon
Enhanced Abilities (Su) (2 Oath points)
Your Oath grants you strength and acuity beyond that of your kin. At 4th level and every even-numbered level thereafter, you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to one of your ability scores. These bonuses do not stack with each other until you are at least 10th level, at which point they may stack up to a maximum of +4. This improves to a maximum of +6 at 13th level. From level 13 onwards, you gain two +2 ability score bonuses at every level rather than just one at even-numbered levels.

Purely reading this as written it works out to the following

04 Dex +2 enh 
06 Con +2 enh
08 Wis +2 enh
10 Dex becomes +4 enh
12 Con becomes +4 enh
13 Dex becomes +6 enh, Con becomes +6 enh
14 Wis becomes +4 enh, Wis becomes +6 enh 
15 Str Becomes +2 enh, Str Becomes +4 enh
16 Str Becomes +6 enh, Int becomes +2 enh
17 Int becomes +4 enh, Cha becomes +2 enh
18 Cha becomes +4 enh, Cha becomes +6 enh
19 two +2 ability score bonuses ?
20 two +2 ability score bonuses ?
21 two +2 ability score bonuses ?

my question for the gm where other things have been uncapped, can this become uncapped effectivly it could allow for +8 enh to all attributes

----------


## grumblyarcher

Ehhhhh.... fudge it, I was considering holding myself back by only using modern firearms but I think I am going to jump the goddamn shark and kit my crew out with tech weapons.

----------


## Llyarden

> okay I need to ask this where Oaths have been allowed
> 
> my question for the gm where other things have been uncapped, can this become uncapped effectivly it could allow for +8 enh to all attributes


Oh, yeah, I forgot that Enhanced Abilities runs out of spaces to put the enhancements before level 20 because of the weird sudden increase in how many bonuses you get.  Considering that it's plausible to get +8 enhancement using the Enhancement sphere at level 21, letting Enhanced Abilities go up to +8 seems reasonable.

----------


## samduke

@ Llyarden

okay this is unclear to me so I want to ask.

Spheres Mythic Oracle  http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mythic-oracle-options
Mythic Lore Mystery

do I need to be a spheres oracle to use the mythic oracle lore mystery?

I think it counts as the mythic path choice

edited

----------


## Dr.Gunsforhands

> - Yep, pretty much.
> - The only 'rehabilitated' monsters are ones that are bound to people (much like your captured monsters.)  There have been some experiments done with training sapient monsters and then releasing them, but without a bond to a person they revert to hostility.
> - Ah, the joys of the pfsrd copying _half_ a book.  Yes, that's fine, I happen to have that book anyway.


*shocked lightning cat face*

Would you say you recommend said book? I might also get it if you don't mind me using it, since the parts I have seen are certainly fun.

----------


## angelpalm

@llyarden I have a question.  Would I be able to make a mythic version of the unarmed training discipline talent.   There is a mythic version of unarmored training.   How does this sound?

*Spoiler: Unarmed training (discipline/mythic)*
Show


You may now gain the benefits of this talent when using full round actions/full attacks and may use your weapons critical multiplier. while treating them as unarmed strikes.  Weapons listed previously are also treated as if they had the monk special ability.






How big is this city we are in?    Any noteworthy areas?   I am thinking of having the syndicate/crime family have dealings with a few legit businesses like a classic evil pharmaceutical company, private weapons manufacturer,  and maybe a chicken restaurant chain.   :Small Smile: 

*Spoiler: gonna make this guy in charge of all of them* 
Show

----------


## Dakrsidder

> Does it really?
> 
> 
> By level 20 you would have thirteen +2 increases to distribute.  With a cap of +6 that means  you would be able to get 4 stats to +6 and then have single +2 left over.  at level 21 you could make that a +4......someone's math isn't adding up but then again that doesn't shock me when I see ppl stacking stuff that doesnt stack around here all the time like Damage reduction.


Its actually 23 as its 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 for 5 and 21-12=9 double that and its 18 then add 5 its 23 which is 5 8s 1 6

Edit: well 21 total +2s at 20 I just automatically assumed you said 21

----------


## angelpalm

> Its actually 23 as its 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 for 5 and 21-12=9 double that and its 18 then add 5 its 23 which is 5 8s 1 6



I read the actual text for that boon and realized I was shorting myself.   Your text is confusing me too tbh but I did that math myself and it checks out.  It really only makes sense that it should be at least +8 unless they changed the way it worked from before.


edit:  Since this is Epic it would make more sense for them to top out at +12 like normal epic items

----------


## Duqueen

> I read the actual text for that boon and realized I was shorting myself.   Your text is confusing me too tbh but I did that math myself and it checks out.  It really only makes sense that it should be at least +8 unless they changed the way it worked from before.
> 
> 
> edit:  Since this is Epic it would make more sense for them to top out at +12 like normal epic items


I think it should slow down the progression, since you have +6 to everything at level 20. Starting epic you get a +2 every level, with the cap raising every 4 levels (up to +12?) There is a need to balance that boon with the wealth you are saving.

----------


## angelpalm

> I think it should slow down the progression, since you have +6 to everything at level 20. Starting epic you get a +2 every level, with the cap raising every 4 levels (up to +12?) There is a need to balance that boon with the wealth you are saving.


I agree with this.  If it stays at +2 bonus twice per level, you would still have too many to spend even with a cap matching the normal epic stat boosting items.   Those epic items are massively overpriced.   Especially for 3.5

----------


## MagneticDragon

> Also, since people keep asking, these are the very rough numbers for my GMPC character.  They absolutely do not adequately cover her full abilities or weaknesses, so some people could have higher or lower numbers while still being balanced with her in practice.
> 
> *Spoiler: Ragwitch*
> Show
> 
> Basic Attack: +28-36 (avg damage 30-42)
> Big Attack: ~230 damage plus basic attack
> HP 477, DR(ish) 24-56/-
> AC 35-52.
> Fort +24-41, Ref +25-42, Will +25-42


Well, as everyone else has been doing it, lets have a look at how I compare in terms of stats to Ragwitch.

*Spoiler: Ferrous' stats*
Show

For the basic attack, Im hitting with less accuracy, even when buffed up, but I am hitting _much_ harder, with an average damage of 82, not accounting for crits. My big attack is hitting for an average of 298.5 damage as well, so when it comes to raw damage, I am certainly beating Rag, though I might have issues with higher AC enemies.

However, I suffer greatly when it comes to defence. My AC is superior, and my HP is just a little bit under, but I have far less Damage Reduction, and my saves are _vastly_ inferior, though I admittedly have quite a few ways to bypass conditions so the lack of saves may not be an issue.

Cant say Im surprised, my character is a Magus/Kineticist, they naturally hit hard, but do not have much on the defence, even with the Way of the Diamond Skin. Still, it does seem like I am reasonably balanced, which is quite pleasing to note.

----------


## angelpalm

:Small Tongue:

----------


## grumblyarcher

I'll post some numbers for the squad once I've got them swapped over to new gear.

----------


## samduke

> Ragwitch
> Basic Attack: +28-36 (avg damage 30-42)
> Big Attack: ~230 damage plus basic attack
> HP 477, DR(ish) 24-56/-
> AC 35-52.
> Fort +24-41, Ref +25-42, Will +25-42


Comparison to what I have Posted
Lei Korosuga
Basic Melee Attack +27-+39  (avg damage 22-32)
full attack: with crit max damage 82 each successful hit
HP 507, DR 29/-, FH 5
AC 48
fort +29 ref +29 will +29
in theory if Lei had to fight Ragwitch she would hit ac 52 with a 13 slightly less than 50% of the time and do very little damage to HP due to the DR
Ragwitch would hit lei with a 12 slightly less than 50% of the time and do very little damage to HP due to the DR


Lilliana Hesporath
Basic Melee Attack +29-+38 (avg damage 4-6)
Basic Ranged Attack +29-+51 (avg damage 25-32)
full attack: with crit max damage melee 12 each successful hit
full attack: with crit max damage ranged 160 each successful hit
Flurry attack 7 attacks, attack +41, Damage (28-48, max critical 240 each successful hit)
HP 483, DR 5/-
AC 59
fort +31 ref +32 will +31
in theory if Lilliana had to fight Ragwitch she would hit ac 52 with a 2 better than 90% of the time and do very little damage to HP due to the DR
Ragwitch would hit Lilliana with a 20 slightly less than 5% of the time and do some damage to HP due to the DR

I am debating about dropping one or the other all together, and possibly replacing with an Ifrit Sorcerer/Oracle that is a WIP

EDITED

@Llyarden
on the premise of dropping one or both of the above, I would like to ask about this
I do not know if it can be linked as its on deviant arts site so here is the text




> Dual Enlightened (Pathfinder Oracle Archetype) <-if you google this you probably can find it
> 
> A Dual Enlightened Oracle selects two different Mysteries. The Oracle may gain access to the skills, revelations, and some of the spells of both Mysteries she is enlightened from, but at the cost of reduced choice (see Drawbacks).
> Class Skill
> 
> A Dual Enlightened Oracle receives the bonus class skill from both of her Mysteries. If these are the same skill, this does not grant any additional benefit.
> Bonus Spells
> 
> A Dual Enlightened Oracle may select both her bonus spells from her Mysteries.
> ...


the question is if this is something you would allow as there appears to be limited known ways to get 2 mysteries with oracle, and the UMD of a magic item may not fly

----------


## Yas392

Regarding freelancer being OP, I guess it depends on the user. Some might make it UP.

Speaking of freelancer, some of its descriptions confuse me and I am unsure if I am reading it right. So questions for everyone who can answer.

1) Are combat talents from Spheres of Might purchasable individually like rogue talents?

2) You can buy abilities from lower levels as well. Not sure what this clause mean. Does that mean if you buy sneak attack at 5th level, it starts at +1d6 damage at that level then progresses every two levels thereafter in which you pay for the progression cost?

----------


## Duqueen

> Regarding freelancer being OP, I guess it depends on the user. Some might make it UP.
> 
> Speaking of freelancer, some of its descriptions confuse me and I am unsure if I am reading it right. So questions for everyone who can answer.
> 
> 1) Are combat talents from Spheres of Might purchasable individually like rogue talents?
> 
> 2) You can buy abilities from lower levels as well. Not sure what this clause mean. Does that mean if you buy sneak attack at 5th level, it starts at +1d6 damage at that level then progresses every two levels thereafter in which you pay for the progression cost?


There is the ffd20 discord where you can get official rulings, but I can give some help:

1- as written, you would need GM permission to buy sphere talents like that. However, you can always get SoM talents through combat feats (fighter bonus feats) traded for extra martial talents. SoP talents I am not sure of wizard bonus feats cover extra magic talents.

2- it is simpler if you use divine grace as an example, a 2nd level ability that can be bought at a higher level, but it is as you wrote.

----------


## Denomar

Well.  I'm done.  And only a single entry since every version of vampire slayer I came up with seemed kinda *basic* if you know what I mean.  Enjoy.

*Spoiler: Lord of Nowhere*
Show

The dungeon is dark, but I can light the way for you.  If you stay by my side than I guarantee, my cuts, both long and short, always arrive.

*Spoiler: Story: A light for when all other lights go out.*
Show

There was a steady drip in this place.  It smelled of dust, age, and mildew in equal measure.

It was the scent of the forgotten.  The scent of nowhere in particular come to think of it.  A long abandoned side passage and store room in one of the many 'dungeons' of this strange world.  Abruptly the passage way adjoined by another darker alley that surely couldn't have been there but moments earlier.  From this darker passage a pale luminescence grew.  The shuffling sounds of steps and booted feet echoed through the corridor.  Silently a man with long black hair stepped from the corridor.  He was of middling height and unassuming, clad in ash darkened mail and a simple cloak.  A long staff was firmly grasped in one bony fist.  From a long chain on that staff hung a dark metal lantern which was the source of the pale-yet steady-illumination.

The man, Weiss, looked from left to right and cocked an ear as if to listen, then he raised a hand to silently beckon to the corridor he had emerged from.  Scarcely had he raised his hand when a much brighter and more bombastic figure stomped out of the corridor.  This man was tall and fit, and bedecked in shimmering golden plate with a comically enormous sword held clenched in one fist.  He stuck his fist on his hip and shouted, "At last!  I was getting so bored of that damn side tunnel!  Now its time for some REAL Action!"

Weiss winced at the echoing shout.  "Stay silent.  This level is full of threats." Weiss's voice was deep and thrummed with subharmonics that were in stark contrast to his lanky form.  A third figure stepped out of the corridor.  A woman with billowing snowy owl like wings and taloned feet, and an equally billowing crimson robe.  She thumbed her nose at the dank passageway and raised a hand that was suddenly filled with scarlet energy like freshly lanced blood.  Her voice when she spoke was shrill like a hunting bird dropping upon her prey.  "There isss No danger that we cannot handle guide dog!"  Casually she marched toward the burly warrior, allowing her cupped light to illuminate her path.  They were rankers clearly.  B1 at the least.  Weiss hadn't bothered to check the files when he accepted the job.  They only wanted passage after all.  Or least, that was what they claimed.

"Stay within the light please." Weiss had not yet moved.  The harpy sorceress cawed and laughed and just kept walking.  The warrior following close behind.  "Why don't you let us take the lead for once.  We'll show you what real rankers can..."

No sooner did the golden clad warrior step out of the pale light that he was set upon by the horrors of the dungeon.  Slick and oily horrors with too many eyes and too many other limbs(?) that battered at his armor sending a pauldron ricocheting back down the hall and bouncing onto the wall where the corridor the throuple had stepped through but a moment before _used_ to be.  Weiss stifled a sigh and stepped forward to assist, with a resounding thrum he struck the bass of the staff on the floor and the soul lantern flared.  The warrior heaved his sword and swung in great cleaving strikes.  Without even noticing as the gashes and sucker marks on his own shoulder were already fading, or that the sword now glimmered with the same pale radiance of the lantern not far behind him.  The assaulting creatures stood no chance before his furious onslaught.  Not even breathing hard, the blustering warrior shot a grin back at Weiss.  "There you see!  Nothing to fear!".

Weiss nodded with a half smile.  "Of course not." his unhurried pace finally bringing him to the side of the harpy who was tossing bloody red streams of energy out into the darkness.  She looked at him and sneered.  "Good of you to join us guide dog.  I don't see you doing any fighting."

Weiss bowed in deference and did not answer.  Bragging would do him no good.  He raised the lantern higher, the light washing over the dark things trying to creep back into view.  Dozens of them now.  The harpy's voice stuttered into choked silence and the warrior lost some of his grin.  The pale fire of the lantern was reflected in Weiss's dark brown eyes, which watered in the pale illumination.  The dark creatures faltered at that look.  But only for a moment, there were too many of them and their numbers overcame their potential fear.  As the first one struck Weiss deflected a dark claw that may have skewered the warrior before he could have reacted.

"Stay in the light."


*Spoiler: The Darkwalker*
Show



Joshua Weiss.  Shadow Haunted Benevolent Guide.

Joshua Weiss was once a young boy scout when he found himself pulled into the dangerous world of the dungeons.  Not enormous or supremely talented but possessing an iron will and a refusal to give up Weiss's perseverance eventually saw him start to climb the ranks.  This climb was precisely the opposite of what Weiss wanted having no use for fame and with skills and a personality that were far from marketable.  He simply stuck it out, learning what he could of the back doors and alleys of the dungeons until he became known as a premiere guide to the richer and more famous rankers.  Perhaps if he's lucky the only limelight he'll stay in is the one he casts with his very soul.


*Spoiler: Mechanics, Homebrew, and Classes*
Show

Omdura
Lantern
Oracle
Impact is a weapon enchantment from the arms and equipment guide which I cannot faithfully link, suffice to say its just keen for bludgeoning weapons and should be easy to understand.

Weiss is a buffer and a tank.  He mainly supports his party by sharing damage that they take and providing fast healing to to those near him.  In a pinch he can access the nowhere, a weird shadowy dimension that allows him to connect pathways in dungeons.  He also gains a large benefits when healing himself, which can be useful if he's using shield other to take damage off another party member.  His direct healing is limited though, as right now he is dependent on using the omdura's lay on hands equivalent.

His damage is middling, unless he is using divine might (aka paladin smite) though he can tool his weapon by using bane type effects with his divine weapon.  His ac is fairly high, but he also buffs the parties ac when they're nearby so the difference isn't enormous unless he begins using mythic combat expertise at which point his peak ac is up to 54.  Which for 21st level I think is actually pretty low.  I did go in with the express goal of not making a character who could effortlessly one shot himself and I think I succeeded.

----------


## Yas392

> There is the ffd20 discord where you can get official rulings, but I can give some help:
> 
> 1- as written, you would need GM permission to buy sphere talents like that. However, you can always get SoM talents through combat feats (fighter bonus feats) traded for extra martial talents. SoP talents I am not sure of wizard bonus feats cover extra magic talents.
> 
> 2- it is simpler if you use divine grace as an example, a 2nd level ability that can be bought at a higher level, but it is as you wrote.


1 - As I read but I will defer to Llyarden's call for clarity.

2 - Will need more thoughts from other people for this.

----------


## Shiro_Nogard

Ok. I want to request something.

Gunbaghnakh make slashing damage. Can I change it to piercing damage? The description says it's a gauntlet + shotgun. But there is no slicing simple or martial gauntlet, there is the axe-gauntlet and kinda fits the stats (1d6 x3)
So either:
1.- Change/add the damage from slashing to piercing. A simple thing. Craft can make that happen. And add the versatile modification (light blades weapon group)
Or
2.- Adding the versatile modification  and use weapon versatility feat to change the damage.

What are your thoughts on forge constructs? Wanted to add a pair of low level homunculus.
I also was thinking of taking the toy familiar feat. Does the forge construct let's me upgrade the familiar? There is no raw on it.  But some think it might break the familiar link.

Also wanted them to have the "wand sheath" from eberron.

Also tomorrow finish spending gold.

----------


## Llyarden

> @ Llyarden
> 
> okay this is unclear to me so I want to ask.
> 
> Spheres Mythic Oracle  http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mythic-oracle-options
> Mythic Lore Mystery
> 
> do I need to be a spheres oracle to use the mythic oracle lore mystery?
> 
> ...


No, you don't.  Anyone with the Mystery class feature can take it; it counts as a universal path ability or mythic feat.




> *shocked lightning cat face*
> 
> Would you say you recommend said book? I might also get it if you don't mind me using it, since the parts I have seen are certainly fun.


I haven't looked through it too thoroughly to be honest, I think I got it in a bundle at some point.




> @llyarden I have a question.  Would I be able to make a mythic version of the unarmed training discipline talent.   There is a mythic version of unarmored training.   How does this sound?
> 
> How big is this city we are in?    Any noteworthy areas?   I am thinking of having the syndicate/crime family have dealings with a few legit businesses like a classic evil pharmaceutical company, private weapons manufacturer,  and maybe a chicken restaurant chain.


I know there's a Mythic version of Unarmoured Mastery, but I didn't know there was a mythic version of unarmoured training.

The city's pretty big, so any or all of the above could exist.




> I think it should slow down the progression, since you have +6 to everything at level 20. Starting epic you get a +2 every level, with the cap raising every 4 levels (up to +12?) There is a need to balance that boon with the wealth you are saving.





> I agree with this.  If it stays at +2 bonus twice per level, you would still have too many to spend even with a cap matching the normal epic stat boosting items.   Those epic items are massively overpriced.   Especially for 3.5


Yeah, I was thinking about this myself.  Since I didn't really rule it very specifically, I agree with that suggestion - from level 21 you can get up to +8, and the cap increases every 4 levels, and you get one +2 per epic level.




> @Llyarden
> on the premise of dropping one or both of the above, I would like to ask about this
> I do not know if it can be linked as its on deviant arts site so here is the text
> 
> the question is if this is something you would allow as there appears to be limited known ways to get 2 mysteries with oracle, and the UMD of a magic item may not fly


There should be an OGL post accompanying anything for Pathfinder (because that's a requirement of the OGL itself) that should tell you what can be reproduced.  In any case, sure, I'll allow it.




> Regarding freelancer being OP, I guess it depends on the user. Some might make it UP.
> 
> Speaking of freelancer, some of its descriptions confuse me and I am unsure if I am reading it right. So questions for everyone who can answer.
> 
> 1) Are combat talents from Spheres of Might purchasable individually like rogue talents?
> 
> 2) You can buy abilities from lower levels as well. Not sure what this clause mean. Does that mean if you buy sneak attack at 5th level, it starts at +1d6 damage at that level then progresses every two levels thereafter in which you pay for the progression cost?


1) The Conscript has the 'bonus talent' feature, so yes.

2) I think this just means that you don't have to necessarily buy something at a given level that was available at only that level (as someone else used as an example, you could take Divine Grace at 2nd, 3rd, 4th or even 20th level.)  Or yes, you could progress sneak attack slower than a rogue by paying only when it increases.




> Ok. I want to request something.
> 
> Gunbaghnakh make slashing damage. Can I change it to piercing damage? The description says it's a gauntlet + shotgun. But there is no slicing simple or martial gauntlet, there is the axe-gauntlet and kinda fits the stats (1d6 x3)
> So either:
> 1.- Change/add the damage from slashing to piercing. A simple thing. Craft can make that happen. And add the versatile modification (light blades weapon group)
> Or
> 2.- Adding the versatile modification  and use weapon versatility feat to change the damage.
> 
> What are your thoughts on forge constructs? Wanted to add a pair of low level homunculus.
> ...


Yes, you can make the gunbaghnakh (gosh that's annoying to spell) a piercing weapon if you prefer.

No pre-game crafting, that includes constructs.  And yeah I think upgrading your familiar would make the link break.

As with all things 3.5 I have no idea what a wand sheath is.

----------


## Shiro_Nogard

I know about the pre craft. Was asking more like to just buy it at the selling price. So if I do it like that, can I?




> As with all things 3.5 I have no idea what a wand sheath is.


You can insert a wand inside a weapon. So you can use it any time you want.

----------


## Llyarden

> I know about the pre craft. Was asking more like to just buy it at the selling price. So if I do it like that, can I?
> 
> You can insert a wand inside a weapon. So you can use it any time you want.


Oh, hmm, I didn't think about that.  Sure.

As for inserting a wand in a weapon, I know there's a spell in Pathfinder that does it, but I don't think there's a counterpart item.

----------


## Triskavanski

My favorite was to make deathwand crossbow which had two magic versions of the wand slot from 3.0, then add the dungeonscape wand chamber for another wand. Then add a bayonet for at total of four wands in my crossbow.

----------


## paradox26

Llyarden, I am reconsidering using the Legendary Samurai right now. To go with something more unusual, is the Hero Reborn allowed? It is a homebrew class that is a work in progress. It is almost finished, with just a few abilities missing, none of which I intended to use anyway, so missing them will not be a problem for completing the sheet. Here is the link:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ht=hero+reborn

----------


## Llyarden

> Llyarden, I am reconsidering using the Legendary Samurai right now. To go with something more unusual, is the Hero Reborn allowed? It is a homebrew class that is a work in progress. It is almost finished, with just a few abilities missing, none of which I intended to use anyway, so missing them will not be a problem for completing the sheet. Here is the link:
> https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ht=hero+reborn


There are definitely some very strong aspects to it, but sure.

----------


## samduke

*Spoiler: Tables are so big*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Manticore/Alex Paol
Evolutionist 21 | Freelancer 21

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke
Lilliana Hesporath
Legendary Fighter (Steelbound Soldier) 21 // Monk (Qinggong Zen) 21

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)

Dakrsidder
Meteon
Philosopher 11 / Silent Blade 10 | Extractor 9 / Paragon 2 / Awakened Dreamer 10

Angelpalm
Shun
Cryptic 20 / Aegis 1 | Helsman 7 / Sorcerer 11 / Machine Scion 10

Duqueen
Kaiser
Freelancer(Monsterkin) 21 | Braggart 21

Volthawk
Tobias Blackwood
Chi Monk 21// Chi Ninja 21





Table Updated with my pulling one entry, still debating on if I will submit this other idea or not

----------


## angelpalm

@llyarden yeah you are right I was getting the feat confused for the talent with unarmored mastery/training.     So I guess what I was asking for is a mythic version of the unarmed training but for the life of me I can't remember why.   Do spiked gauntlets no longer count as unarmed strikes in pathfinder?    Is that something they changed over from 3.5?      I think the only reason I even needed it was interaction with forcestrike knuckles which hardly seems worth an epic/mythic feat.

----------


## Duqueen

> @llyarden yeah you are right I was getting the feat confused for the talent with unarmored mastery/training.     So I guess what I was asking for is a mythic version of the unarmed training but for the life of me I can't remember why.   Do spiked gauntlets no longer count as unarmed strikes in pathfinder?    Is that something they changed over from 3.5?      I think the only reason I even needed it was interaction with forcestrike knuckles which hardly seems worth an epic/mythic feat.


Unarmed training already treats gauntlets as unarmed strikes. Doesn't the aptitude enchantment make the spiked gauntlet count as a regular gauntlet?

----------


## angelpalm

> Unarmed training already treats gauntlets as unarmed strikes. Doesn't the aptitude enchantment make the spiked gauntlet count as a regular gauntlet?


It does if I don't full attack with them or I assume use abilities that are similar to full attacks like some of the maneuvers I have.   I will probably just drop that particular veil.

----------


## Enceladus

Game looks interest! If there is still room, would like to submit a healer/summoner type character. Though find it a bit unusual you need 10 posts just to include a link. Combating bots i guess? But anyways, might as well say howdy from someone new to the boards!

Llyarden, got a few questions. I noticed someone prior posted about asking for the use of Occult rituals and Words of Power. Is that something that is on the table? Been interested in these so asking if they can still be used. If so how many would be appropriate to begin with? 

On the setting, are we to assume that current governments are still in power? Or has the event caused some measure of a world wide melt down?

Cheers

----------


## Yas392

*@Llyarden* I know this hasn't been asked but do we need to meet requirements to buy the selective skills like some advance rogue talents that require advance rogue talents as a pre-requisite? The class itself is vague only mentioning needing to qualify for the class and archetype you purchase the feature from.

----------


## QuantumFlash

So this didn't get answered before so asking again, can we toggle continuous passive abilities at will, such as a permanent AMF, or are such things always on unless something external somehow interferes?

----------


## Llyarden

> Llyarden, got a few questions. I noticed someone prior posted about asking for the use of Occult rituals and Words of Power. Is that something that is on the table? Been interested in these so asking if they can still be used. If so how many would be appropriate to begin with? 
> 
> On the setting, are we to assume that current governments are still in power? Or has the event caused some measure of a world wide melt down?


Yes, rituals and words of power are available.

Assume the current real-world political structures with random NPCs in place of real-world figures.




> *@Llyarden* I know this hasn't been asked but do we need to meet requirements to buy the selective skills like some advance rogue talents that require advance rogue talents as a pre-requisite? The class itself is vague only mentioning needing to qualify for the class and archetype you purchase the feature from.


I assume you mean for the freelancer?  Yes, because you don't buy an individual rogue talent, you buy the Rogue Talent class feature.




> So this didn't get answered before so asking again, can we toggle continuous passive abilities at will, such as a permanent AMF, or are such things always on unless something external somehow interferes?


Unless the ability states otherwise, you can't turn passive abilities off.

----------


## Lord Foul

I think I finally have a build that I think works for this game.

CG Gnoll oracle (feral soul, snake mystery, dual cursed lame/burned) 21//freelancer (superhero) 16/greatmind 5
Named La'Vassa, but with the superhero/wrestler name of "the flaming demon" 
and post cc will take levels of striker on the freelancer side, since freelancer doesn't have epic advancement.

----------


## angelpalm

:Small Tongue:

----------


## QuantumFlash

Finally updating to put myself on here. 

*Spoiler: Tables are so big*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Manticore/Alex Paol
Evolutionist 21 | Freelancer 21

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke
Lilliana Hesporath
Legendary Fighter (Steelbound Soldier) 21 // Monk (Qinggong Zen) 21

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)

Dakrsidder
Meteon
Philosopher 11 / Silent Blade 10 | Extractor 9 / Paragon 2 / Awakened Dreamer 10

Angelpalm
Shun
Cryptic 20 / Aegis 1 | Helsman 7 / Sorcerer 11 / Machine Scion 10

Duqueen
Kaiser
Freelancer(Monsterkin) 21 | Braggart 21

Volthawk
Tobias Blackwood
Chi Monk 21// Chi Ninja 21

QuantumFlash
H3-1P
Monsterkin Freelancer 21//Spellscorn Fighter 20/Unmage 1

----------


## Enceladus

Decided on a summoning/healer base. Notes on the build at the bottom.



*Spoiler: Tables are so big*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Manticore/Alex Paol
Evolutionist 21 | Freelancer 21

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke
Lilliana Hesporath
Legendary Fighter (Steelbound Soldier) 21 // Monk (Qinggong Zen) 21

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)

Dakrsidder
Meteon
Philosopher 11 / Silent Blade 10 | Extractor 9 / Paragon 2 / Awakened Dreamer 10

Angelpalm
Shun
Cryptic 20 / Aegis 1 | Helsman 7 / Sorcerer 11 / Machine Scion 10

Duqueen
Kaiser
Freelancer(Monsterkin) 21 | Braggart 21

Volthawk
Tobias Blackwood
Chi Monk 21// Chi Ninja 21

QuantumFlash
H3-1P
Monsterkin Freelancer 21//Spellscorn Fighter 20/Unmage 1

Enceladus
Magonindis
FF Summoner 20/ Allagan Arcanimist 1 // FF Cleric 20 / Daivrat 1[/URL]

----------


## Duqueen

> I think I finally have a build that I think works for this game.
> 
> CG Gnoll oracle (feral soul, snake mystery, dual cursed lame/burned) 21//freelancer (superhero) 16/greatmind 5
> Named La'Vassa, but with the superhero/wrestler name of "the flaming demon" 
> and post cc will take levels of striker on the freelancer side, since freelancer doesn't have epic advancement.


Freelancer can't multiclass.

----------


## Volthawk

Hm. While the Chi character is fine and probably still fits the brief, I'm still fiddling around with this wild card-casting spheres mage. After looking around for a class to gestalt my main class with and finding that they all had something I didn't want as well as the thing I wanted (usually more temporary talents beyond the small amount my main class gives me - I don't want too much of that, kinda kills the fun of the gimmick if I can pull elaborate combos out of my ass), I'm finding myself looking at Freelancer as a way of cherry-picking the features I like and which thematically fit from the various candidates. Running into some points of uncertainty since I've never used it before, would appreciate someone chipping in.

*Spoiler*
Show


An ability like Sequence is a scaling ability since you get more links as you level, right? The various class features that improve sequence (Flawless Sequence, etc) or work off it (Imbue Sequence and Chromatic Techniques) and would just be bought individually as non-scaling features, though.If an ability has a duration based on level but doesn't otherwise improve over levels, is that a scaling ability, a non-scaling ability that requires you to make Freelancer count as that class, or just a non-scaling feature?How about if it has a DC based off level (is there a difference between if it just says "1/2 her class level" without mentioning which class, or if it specifically mentions class, eg "1/2 the chromamancers prodigy level" for Chromatic Techniques)?What about abilities that give you a pool of points based off level? Like Thaumaturge's Invocations (that'll almost certainly be the class I actually take alongside Freelancer, since the Wild Mage archetype just works for what I want, but it works as an example). My assumption is that you'd need to buy the corresponding "count as X class" option to get more points, right?From what was said before, I gather that Sphere talents can't be directly acquired like casting, but you can just get bonus feats through Freelancer and use them to get more talents. Is that accurate?Is it okay to take an ability where part of it references one you don't have, but the rest references one you do have, intending to ignore the former and use the latter? The Prodigy capstone improves Sequence (which this character would have), but also affects Adaptation (which he won't have), for example.Was it ever decided if taking Freelancer into epic levels was any different from nonepic freelancer? I wasn't paying too close attention to the debate around that epic freelancer progression earlier, not sure what the final ruling was.How can I spend all these points? Sorry, just being a little flippant. This is a big budget.

----------


## Zarthrax

Ok, I've finally settled on an idea and am ready to make requests.

Warcrafter Base Class and Mystic Brew Discipline
Candysmith PrC and Glass Elevator Discipline
Dual Stance Mastery epic feat

----------


## Duqueen

> ...If an ability has a duration based on level but doesn't otherwise improve over levels, is that a scaling ability, a non-scaling ability that requires you to make Freelancer count as that class, or just a non-scaling feature?How about if it has a DC based off level (is there a difference between if it just says "1/2 her class level" without mentioning which class, or if it specifically mentions class, eg "1/2 the chromamancers prodigy level" for Chromatic Techniques)?What about abilities that give you a pool of points based off level? Like Thaumaturge's Invocations (that'll almost certainly be the class I actually take alongside Freelancer, since the Wild Mage archetype just works for what I want, but it works as an example). My assumption is that you'd need to buy the corresponding "count as X class" option to get more points, right?From what was said before, I gather that Sphere talents can't be directly acquired like casting, but you can just get bonus feats through Freelancer and use them to get more talents. Is that accurate?Is it okay to take an ability where part of it references one you don't have, but the rest references one you do have, intending to ignore the former and use the latter? The Prodigy capstone improves Sequence (which this character would have), but also affects Adaptation (which he won't have), for example.Was it ever decided if taking Freelancer into epic levels was any different from nonepic freelancer? I wasn't paying too close attention to the debate around that epic freelancer progression earlier, not sure what the final ruling was.How can I spend all these points? Sorry, just being a little flippant. This is a big budget.


aside from the first question, if you check some examples from the FFD20 site and the discussion on the FFD20 discord, abilities that are a direct formula are considered not scaling, but you would need to get the consider as a class to activate the level count. (and by RAW an ability that scales following 1/x of your level is not the same as the ability improving every x levels. the first would be 10 JP, the second would be 20 JP + 10 JP every x levels. Yes, it is dumb, but that is how I have seen dealt with in the FFD20 discord)

Buying magic talents directly won't give you a caster level, you would need some other feats. One option would be to spend the points on a spellcasting feature and trade for a spherecasting feature based on the conversion on the wiki. (basically a magic talent progression, caster level and spell points depending of your choice among high casters, medium casters and low casters).

Thamathurge gives you a poll of points, but it is also a scaling and improving ability, however, as written, it is not available (it is not an Ex, Sp, Sla ability. You would need to ask the GM for it.

If I am not mistaken, freelancer just keeps getting its regular 30 JP a level in epic.

----------


## Volthawk

> aside from the first question, if you check some examples from the FFD20 site and the discussion on the FFD20 discord, abilities that are a direct formula are considered not scaling, but you would need to get the consider as a class to activate the level count. (and by RAW an ability that scales following 1/x of your level is not the same as the ability improving every x levels. the first would be 10 JP, the second would be 20 JP + 10 JP every x levels. Yes, it is dumb, but that is how I have seen dealt with in the FFD20 discord)
> 
> If I am not mistaken, freelancer just keeps getting its regular 30 JP a level in epic.


Ah, very helpful. thanks.




> Buying magic talents directly won't give you a caster level, you would need some other feats. One option would be to spend the points on a spellcasting feature and trade for a spherecasting feature based on the conversion on the wiki. (basically a magic talent progression, caster level and spell points depending of your choice among high casters, medium casters and low casters).


Getting casting is fine, the other side of the gestalt will be a spherecasting class (currently down as Thaumaturge (Wild Mage), but when I asked those questions I was considering going Incanter and Freelancering the Wild Mage things), that question was mainly for if I wanted more talents than my proper class had - so whether the only option was using bonus feats on Extra Magical Talent, or whether making Freelancer a spherecaster was an option like you said. Good to know.




> Thamathurge gives you a poll of points, but it is also a scaling and improving ability, however, as written, it is not available (it is not an Ex, Sp, Sla ability. You would need to ask the GM for it.


Yeah, sounds like it's easier to just stick with Thaumaturge as my other class. Feels better thematically, too. 

Thanks for the answers, helped a lot.

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## Yas392

> I assume you mean for the freelancer?  Yes, because you don't buy an individual rogue talent, you buy the Rogue Talent class feature.


Yeah. Forgot to put it up there. I can now proceed to finish off my sheet.

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## Llyarden

> Ok, I've finally settled on an idea and am ready to make requests.
> 
> Warcrafter Base Class and Mystic Brew Discipline
> Candysmith PrC and Glass Elevator Discipline
> Dual Stance Mastery epic feat


Warcrafter has a bunch of abilities that affect experience costs for crafting, which don't exist in Pathfinder.  Other than that those are fine.

----------


## Zarthrax

> Warcrafter has a bunch of abilities that affect experience costs for crafting, which don't exist in Pathfinder.  Other than that those are fine.


Would you be okay with converting the whole 'craft reserve' bit into a GP discount? I believe 1 xp=5 gp is the customary conversion.

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## paradox26

It will probably take me the better part of 24 hours to finalise my sheet and all the abilities. I hope this is within the time frame for your time zone, Llyarden. I will likely get it done a little earlier, but only by a few hours, as I am about to go to bed now.

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## Llyarden

> Would you be okay with converting the whole 'craft reserve' bit into a GP discount? I believe 1 xp=5 gp is the customary conversion.


Sure, it can be treated like the Artisan's magical essence, with the same restrictions.




> It will probably take me the better part of 24 hours to finalise my sheet and all the abilities. I hope this is within the time frame for your time zone, Llyarden. I will likely get it done a little earlier, but only by a few hours, as I am about to go to bed now.


That's fine, it's only 2pm on Saturday for me right now and I will close the game to new interest just before I leave for the night on Sunday.  So there are about 30 hours left.  (Of course, people can continue working while I review apps over the start of the week, but there's no guarantee I'd actually _see_ the changes if I have already reviewed an app before the changes are made.)

----------


## Thunder999

Still not finished backstory, but mechanics are there so I've linked my sheet, hopefully have that added by the time you review them.

*Spoiler: Epic Progression for Echo*
Show

Epic Echo:
Continue adding epic levels to determine Reflections per day, maximum level for Mirror Power, Beast Echo and anything else that scales with class level.  
No more Deeper/Darker reflections
Continue improving Lasting Impression every 4 levels (23, 27, 31 etc.)
No more Rememberences (arguably could scale, but I literally have every skill as a class skill already)
Prowess +1 per 2 levels, damage bonus +1 per 4 levels, as rogue
Endless Echo: At 21st level and every odd level thereafter gain 1 additonal use of Hall of Echos or True Echo per day.


*Spoiler: Table*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Manticore/Alex Paol
Evolutionist 21 | Freelancer 21

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke
Lilliana Hesporath
Legendary Fighter (Steelbound Soldier) 21 // Monk (Qinggong Zen) 21

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)

Dakrsidder
Meteon
Philosopher 11 / Silent Blade 10 | Extractor 9 / Paragon 2 / Awakened Dreamer 10

Angelpalm
Shun
Cryptic 20 / Aegis 1 | Helsman 7 / Sorcerer 11 / Machine Scion 10

Duqueen
Kaiser
Freelancer(Monsterkin) 21 | Braggart 21

Volthawk
Tobias Blackwood
Chi Monk 21// Chi Ninja 21

QuantumFlash
H3-1P
Monsterkin Freelancer 21//Spellscorn Fighter 20/Unmage 1

Enceladus
Magonindis
FF Summoner 20/ Allagan Arcanimist 1 // FF Cleric 20 / Daivrat 1[/URL]

Thunder999
Vanen
Echo 21//Mystic 20/Daring Hero 1

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## grumblyarcher

Okay, I could use some help if anyone is up for offering some. I'm having a hard time coming up with epic progressions for Armorist with the Living Weapon and Martial Archetypes as well as Wraith with the Collective archetype.

----------


## Da'Shain

Here is Shezekhia Shane, who would really appreciate it if people could calm down about the blood, please.

*Spoiler: Red Queen*
Show


_Shezekhia Shane, CE Origins Human female, Cruoromancer 17/Great Mind 4 // Legendary Kineticist 20/Incanter 1 || Mythic Champion/The Gifted 1_
 

*Spoiler: Description*
Show

Tiny, thin and unnaturally pale, with a sharp and coldly beautiful cast to her features, Shezekhia Shane is at once both alluring and off-putting, a fact which only comes more into focus when observers meet her unlidded gaze and find what look like faded red marbles peering back, somehow seeing all without any sign of an iris.  Her wine-red lips bulge slightly when closed, thickened and elongated canines springing into view as she speaks in a melodic voice that is bizarrely normal sounding, considering the rest of her.  Bone white hair hangs flat and straight down to her shoulders.  She keeps a seemingly infinite supply of new, high quality clothes, ranging from comfortable t-shirts and sweatpants to form-fitting superhero spandex, which is a good thing because they tend to be destroyed almost as soon as she begins truly cutting loose.

In normal life Zeka (as the kids unfortunately called her) is mostly able to keep up appearances, such as they are, but the moment she uses any of her powers, blood begins weeping openly from her pores, wounds begin tearing open to emit the bones and viscera that are her weapons, and her face becomes a twisted mass of barely recognizable blood-soaked features, even as strands of flesh and gore form into prehensile tentacles she wields like devastating whips.  She leaves a trail of crimson horror wherever she goes, requiring her full concentration to suppress, and often has to be reminded to clean up after herself. 


*Spoiler: Personality*
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Zeka would really appreciate it if people would just forget all the vampire tales from before the Crash and stop freaking out about her, but she won't be holding her breath (not that she couldn't, since all her oxygen is provided by a neverending supply of fresh hemoglobin).  She's never been the greatest at understanding people or dealing with them, and largely prefers to be left to her own devices so as not to deal with the fear and disgust she provokes in others, or the awkwardness and anxiety they provoke in her.  Still, she has a gift, and mama Shane didn't raise an ingrate; she can help the world no matter what it thinks of her, so she does.  Sure, it's frustrating to see her contributions get passed over or ignored, just because she's maybe a bit freaky (but not like that; she's read THOSE forums and finds those who speculatively drool over her creepy in the extreme); sure, the Platinum Five treat her like the gross kid in class and not like a colleague (one time, you leave your intestines hanging in the closet ONE TIME and it's all anyone talks about); that's okay, because she's doing her thing, and she likes her thing even if other people don't.

To those who can work with her and around her foibles, she is an extremely loyal and generous friend, even if her ways of showing affection can be a bit, what was the phrase, pants-wettingly terrifying.  Even to those who can't, she will selflessly give of herself to protect them and heal their wounds, though she'll be a bit snarkier about it.  And to those few who truly engage with her, they find her startlingly knowledgeable and insightful (almost like having corpokinetic control of your own brain has benefits, hey!), and a truly resourceful and dedicated hero and ally.  Just, uh, don't turn on Detect Evil around her.  You know evil is a social construct, right?  Just because she reads the same to a lot of special senses as many horrific dungeon denizens do, doesn't mean you should judge her like them.  

After all, she's many of those things' worst nightmare. 


*Spoiler: History*
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The picture of a shy, introverted Jewish schoolgirl before she even went to school, Shezekhia Shane found joy in fancy clothes, cooking, playing with dolls, and held onto that joy for perhaps longer than was healthy, replacing real friends and relationships with art projects and tea parties held with stuffed animals.  She did well in school, so her parents left her to her own devices for the most part.  They had enough money that Zeka (as she was dubbed by bullies early on, but then went on to own it so that the name simply stuck) was able to get her own apartment in the city the summer before college as she applied to various art and design schools.  Before then she'd never shown any sign of Otherworldly powers, but after tripping on the stairs and falling on her face, she began leaking a frankly distressing amount of blood.  Retiring to her bathroom, she attempted to clot it to no avail while bathing to remove the blood that was already coating the rest of her body.  As the waters turned red, so did she; her powers awakened in a terrifying manner that made her think she was dying in particularly gruesome yet strangely pain-free way.

She may well have written it off as an embarrassing injury and never discovered anything more, except that as she was bathing the ground floor of her building became instead ground zero for a new dimensional tear.  As the building rocked, she rocketed out of the bath and through the ceiling into her upstairs neighbors' apartment, a family of three with a young daughter and what Zeka annoyedly referred to as a "yap dog."  At first mortified, thinking she was naked, Zeka was instead perplexed as the family cowered in fear from her, and looked down to discover that the blood had coated her body in dripping scabs that she somehow knew would function as armor tougher than stone.  She tried to reassure the family as best she could, but got a little bit distracted when tentacled medusa-beholder-marlboro WHATEVERs burst through the windows behind her.  Instinctively pulling tentacles of her own intestines out to fight, she engaged them in a duel that the family would later describe as "viscerally disgusting slapstick," as Zeka, who had never thrown a punch in anger in her life, was batted around with apparently increasing frustration by the Lovecraftian invaders who clearly knew their business, but just as clearly didn't have anything that could overwhelm Zeka's bloodborne regeneration.  After a long, arduous battle full of Zeka being knocked around like a child, she was finally able to learn enough about her powers to suck the monstrosities' own blood dry with corpokinesis.

When the last of the invaders was dead and Zeka was calming herself down, she finally was able to banish all the blood, and was saved from even further embarrassment by the family's young daughter, Anaiya, who gave her a blanket to cover herself with before anyone else could see, and which the yap dog promptly tried to tear away from her with its teeth in a misguided attempt to protect his mistress' stuff.  Thus was Zeka's heroic career begun as the butt of jokes worldwide about "that time of the month girl" who "drained tentacle monsters dry".  An inauspicious start, but Zeka found the experience exhilarating and immediately applied for guild membership so she could learn more about her powers and how to use them for good.

As time went on, it became clear that her powers were extremely useful but also extremely, oh, vampire-like.  Her appearance shifted as time went on, and she was never sure if it was just her natural growing from teen into adult, or whether her powers shifted her features into more classically beautiful lines.  It was definitely her powers that shifted her hair from its previous fiery red to bone-white, and her eyes from their previous green to fully blood-red orbs.  Basically everything she did involved massive amounts of blood spilling everywhere, and while Zeka herself quickly became inured to it, essentially no one else did.  For a time, she religiously tried to clean up every speck (a fact made easier by her ability to control it with her mind), but eventually just grew frustrated with how much trouble everyone gave her for it, and decided that people could deal with it as a consequence of her helping them.

She rose through the ranks of the Guild quickly, since she never went on a dungeon run that didn't end in success, but very few of the other adventurers would ever want to work with her again, so mentally scarring it could be to be drenched in an ally's blood and guts in order to receive healing, or watch her drain the blood of their kills dry.  She made few friends and several enemies (the more unreasonable types who took a bit of blood in their mouth as an affront, go figure), among them most of the members of the Platinum Five, who both disliked her personally for her awkward yet snarky humor, and thought she was absolute murder on their brand as "classic" adventurers.  Still, years in the Guild and years of dungeon success has made her moderately wealthy and given her a small but dedicated fan base (although too many are the creepy types).  When not going on dungeon runs, she moonlights as essentially a superhero, finding joy in helping others and just a little bit of mean satisfaction from seeing them have to try and deal with her bloodiness afterwards.


Fluff-wise and mechanically, her shtick revolves around spilling her own viscera or absorbing others' to use almost all of her abilities, whether in advance or at the time of.  Thus, her playstyle involves a lot of husbanding HP, which fluctuates rapidly and can leave her on the brink of death very easily, hence why she's heavily invested in ways to increase HP and some "avoid death for a bit" abilities.  This has obvious repercussions for the popularity contest that is ascending to S class, mainly that people think she's super gross and non-photogenic and are also creeped out by her a lot, as she's basically every vampire story rolled into one tiny woman who angrily maintains she is NOT a vampire but seems incapable of not splattering everything around her with blood and guts.  (And due to the way her Cruoroclast abilities work, she has a frankly hilarious amount of blood that geysers out like a Kill Bill red shirt whenever she gets scratched.  Based on the table given by the class, after charging up for the day she'd be considered to have over 500 liters of blood, which increases to even more once she starts drinking ...)  

She doesn't make it past the censors, is the main bullet point, here. *Spoiler: Also ...*
Show

There was that one time she was truly experimenting with her powers and discovered through a series of mishaps that she could theoretically end the world in a plague of vampires or undead if she wasn't careful.  She may have sworn off doing so ever again, but the people who remember that, REMEMBER THAT.  (She doesn't mess around with the Hemocraft or Drain Blood feats anymore.)



*Spoiler: Basic benchmark mechanics*
Show

Basic attack: dual whips +36/+36 atk, 38-58 dmg, plus 9-14 bleed, OR gore blast +33 atk, 68-168 dmg
Full Round damage (double whips, reach 50, threaten 35, plus bite reach 15): 157-234 damage, plus 9-14 bleed, plus any AoOs or combat maneuvers
Full Round damage (double gore blasts, 30 ft range): 136-336 damage
HP 488, +130 temp, -189 nonlethal; Diehard to -155; Delayed Damage 488 (takes half end of each round)
AC 53-58; DR 8/magical silver (so basically none, at this level)
Fort +37, Ref +35 (evasion), Will +25 (replaced with Fort 1/round)



*Spoiler: Updated Table*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Manticore/Alex Paol
Evolutionist 21 | Freelancer 21

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke
Lilliana Hesporath
Legendary Fighter (Steelbound Soldier) 21 // Monk (Qinggong Zen) 21

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)

Dakrsidder
Meteon
Philosopher 11 / Silent Blade 10 | Extractor 9 / Paragon 2 / Awakened Dreamer 10

Angelpalm
Shun
Cryptic 20 / Aegis 1 | Helsman 7 / Sorcerer 11 / Machine Scion 10

Duqueen
Kaiser
Freelancer(Monsterkin) 21 | Braggart 21

Volthawk
Tobias Blackwood
Chi Monk 21// Chi Ninja 21

QuantumFlash
H3-1P
Monsterkin Freelancer 21//Spellscorn Fighter 20/Unmage 1

Enceladus
Magonindis
FF Summoner 20/ Allagan Arcanimist 1 // FF Cleric 20 / Daivrat 1[/URL]

Thunder999
Vanen
Echo 21//Mystic 20/Daring Hero 1

Da'Shain
Shezekhia Shane, "Red Queen"
Cruoroclast 17/Great Mind 4 // Legendary Kineticist 20/Incanter 1

----------


## Duqueen

> Here is Shezekhia Shane, who would really appreciate it if people could calm down about the blood, please.
> 
> *Spoiler: Red Queen*
> Show
> 
> 
> _Shezekhia Shane, CE Origins Human female, Cruoromancer 17/Great Mind 4 // Legendary Kineticist 20/Incanter 1 || Mythic Champion/The Gifted 1_
>  
> 
> ...


is the mythic path gestalt too?

----------


## Da'Shain

> is the mythic path gestalt too?


No, I just selected the Dual Path mythic feat.

----------


## Lord Foul

> Freelancer can't multiclass.


Ah! Is it the sort of thing where they are just stuck in the class until they finish once they start, or just no multiclassing period?
I guess I could swap to striker then, maybe do levels of freelancer once we start leveling again.

----------


## Duqueen

> Ah! Is it the sort of thing where they are just stuck in the class until they finish once they start, or just no multiclassing period?
> I guess I could swap to striker then


from the class:

"Restrictions

-You cannot freely multiclass, nor can you take any prestige classes.

..."

----------


## paradox26

I am withdrawing from consideration. I have been building the character, and the build is looking too powerful, and I don't have the time to rebuild the character. Good luck, Llyarden, and have good time for whoever gets picked for the game.

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## Yas392

Nomen should be complete.

----------


## grumblyarcher

Throwing this all up since today was the deadline, last I saw:

*Spoiler: Epic Progressions (Still need some work on the Epic Collective Wraith abilities)*
Show

Collective Wraith Epic Progression?
-Continues to gains talents as per typical progression
-An epic wraith ceases to gain new haunts
-Canny Hive: Upon reaching 21st level, the collective wraith's cohorts can add one point of the collective's casting ability modifier per epic wraith class level as an insight bonus to saving throws and armor class
-Epic Hive Mind: Upon reaching 22nd level and every even level thereafter, an epic collective wraith and their cohorts may choose one of the following abilities:
--Reinforced mind: an epic collective wraith and their cohorts may roll twice and take the better result on any mind-affecting effect they are targeted with. If an attack that has a reduced effect on a successful saving throw does not target at least half the collective's cohorts, the collective and cohorts instead avoid that effect entirely on a successful save.
--Hive Spotter: an epic collective wraith and their cohorts now treat range increments as starting from the nearest cohort to the target and ignore concealment so long as one of the cohorts has an unobstructed view of the target or has succeeded on the relevant saving throw.
--Hive Reserve: the collective wraith gains a pool of temporary hit points equal to twice their level plus their casting ability modifier that can be used in conjunction with the share pain class feature. Any healing effect that their cohorts are subject to also restores this pool of temporary hit points for an equal amount.
--Hive Coordination: As a move action, the collective can grant all cohorts an additional move action.

Martial Living Weapon Armorist Epic Progression?
-Continues to gains talents as per typical progression
-An epic armorist ceases to gain new arsenal tricks
-Damage Bonus (Ex): An epic armorist gains a +1 bonus to all physical damage rolls at 21st level and every two levels.
-Armorist Unbound: At the 21st level, an epic armorist's bound and summoned equipment have their enhancement bonus caps removed as per epic magic weapons and armor. The enhancement bonus of equipment produced by the summon equipment class feature continues to increase every 3 levels. The enhancement bonus of equipment produced by the bound equipment class feature continues to increase every at every odd level and the armorist gains a new piece of bound equipment every 5 armorist levels. 
-Weapon Training (Ex): An epic living weapon armorist continues to add weapon groups every four levels as normal, with a new group at 21st level gaining a +1 bonus to attack and damage, while the previous groups' bonuses increase by an additional +1. The maximum bonus any group can achieve is +4, gaining no further bonuses to attack or damage at that point.
-Bonus Class Feat: The epic armorist gains a bonus class feat as described in the Universal Class Features section of this chapter at 22nd level and an additional bonus class feat every two levels (24th, 26th, 28th, etc.). These class feats can be selected from Combat feats


*Spoiler: The GETE*
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*Spoiler: Description*
Show

The GETE is something of an industry secret for the Adventurer's Guild and a bit of a dirty one at that. No one likes admitting they exist or are so damn useful. The GETE is a hatchetman... or people as the case may be. They get assigned the miserable missions that other adventuring parties would refuse to do. Clearing high threat dungeons with a stubborn, pragmatic indefatigability. They are hard to kill, perfectly synchronized between elements, and know their place in the grand scheme of things.

Except that last part is profoundly untrue.

The GETE is composed of five primary combat elements and a pool of roughly a hundred secondary elements. While thinking of them as individuals would be somewhat misguided, the secondary elements are not fully sublimated into the gestalt consciousness of the GETE. They simply live their lives with a whole other dimension to themselves.

The core of the GETE was thought to have once been a sixth individual that was present during the initial entangling but by now enough elements have been introduced that whatever identity might have persisted there is thoroughly altered by the formation of the gestalt.

The GETE prefers to keep the primary elements of itself as anonymized as possible when acting as part of the Guild, favoring face covering masks and helmets for each element and wrapping them in durable, form concealing clothes. The only exception is the melee element, which is noticeably larger and bulkier than the other elements, clearly built to handle and operate the massive axe it carries.

No one really knows how the elements dress when off-duty as the GETE studiously keeps guild members from interacting with their elements outside of work arrangements.

*Spoiler: Personality*
Show

The GETE themselves is hard to characterize as they have a distinctly different set of priorities than most other intelligent creatures. Being several people tends to do that. Exactly how much of the primary elements' individual personalities exist or persist within the gestalt is unknown. The gestalt is generally uninterested in socializing with the people they work with and for and social interactions overall receive less of a priority than taking immediate action when needed.

This is not to say the gestalt is bad at handling such interactions. Much to the contrary, they are surprisingly well adjusted and demonstrate little to none of the inhuman detachment one might expect from an entity composed of the blended traits of numerous formally separate individuals. They just have no interest in interacting with other adventurers or the Guild in a friendly manner. Years of being exploited and treated like some kind of pet monster tend to give a somewhat negative attitude toward the people holding that leash.

They do enjoy slipping out and away from their handlers when they can, blending into the city at large and basking in the anonymity of a life in a big city. One of their pet projects is trying to maintain something like a civilian life outside of the Guild out of both a sense of curiosity and a sort of refusal to be only what the Guild thinks they are.

*Spoiler: Background*
Show

The GETE is an experiment, the result of an attempt to weaponize dungeon phenomena. A cooperative effort between the Guild and certain interested parties. The military-industrial complex grinds on after all. The goal was to take a 'dungeon mind', a theoretical psychic structure within dungeons that guided the monsters and caused them to react to intrusion, and localize it to a group of cloned human bodies in order to produce a malleable squad of what amounted to drone soldiers. The results were mixed, to say the least. 

The GETE was supposed to be pliable, something that could be deployed as a semi-autonomous weapons system and guided by a specialized handler back at a base camp. Well, the handler died of a massive cerebral hemorrhage during the initial entangling process and the resulting hivemind formed more-or-less as an utterly autonomous entity. This was, to put it mildly, a problem.

While the people in dark suits with concerning titles debated about what to do next, the GETE was passed off back to the Guild for what amounted to field testing. The Guild, in turn, found that they now had a frighteningly effective and rather inhuman mook squad at their disposal. They proceeded to use the GETE for all the scut work that they could. It cleared dungeons no one else was willing to take, it backed up and reinforced the more marketable adventurers, it worked _hard_.

When elements died, and they did die, there was a disturbing tendency for complete strangers to show up and simply take over that element's role in the GETE. Research into who these people were before joining the GETE has been inconclusive at best. They typically show a pattern of an unremarkable life before being 'activated', quiet, few friends, usually working unimpressive jobs.

Recently, however, the GETE has changed. Or, perhaps more appropriately, they have revealed themself. What the Guild took for a collection of human-shaped tools has decided they want more out of this arrangement. They want a life, they want some respect, they want to be treated like people and they have made it very clear refusing this polite demand could end up being a problem.


*Spoiler: Sheets*
Show

Core

Flex
Heavy Weapon
Medic
Sniper
Melee



@Llyarden, I'd appreciate a review of what I've got for Epic progressions so far and maybe some suggestions if you have the bandwidth for it.

----------


## Duqueen

I will be withdrawing, I finished the mechanics, but I am not happy with the different combat routine/playstyle.

----------


## Dr.Gunsforhands

Arachne Hou is very close to done - I just have some extra money to spend.

The big changes:
- Splurged on the book and got the Researcher archetype. It makes her spellcasting even goofier, which is probably fitting for this game.
- The book also clarified how Supernatural and Extraordinary channeling work. I have to pick one ability and stick with it. So, I did that.
- Got the trainer perk that gives more skill points and leaned harder into the knowledge skill theme.
- Totally re-did the feats to get the funky cybernetic support abilities I wanted in the first place. I can just pass out gizmos now!
- Picked out a mythic feat to get access to mythic magic. Now I can pass out Contingency spells too!
- Bought the means to resurrect people without magic, hopefully justifying the heal skill ranks.
- Made the (easier to explain) first class feature of epic progression for both classes.

To Do:
- Pick out the last chunk of magic items
- Build the Research Journal of saved spells
- Write out the epic progressions so you can approve them
- Ask you to approve the monster collection I have so far

Here are the epic progressions:

*Spoiler: Cyberneticist*
Show



Level
Prowess
Damage Bonus
Special
Energy Capacity
Active Modules
Energy Pool
Socket Attachments

21
-
+1
Personal Enhancement, Improved Energy Capacity
6 (+2)
7
27
8

22
+1
+1
Bonus Feat
6 (+2)
8
29
9

23
+1
+1
Personal Enhancement, Reverse Engineering
6 (+2)
8
31
9

24
+2
+1
Bonus Feat
7 (+2)
8
33
10

25
+2
+2
Personal Enhancement
7 (+2)
8
35
10

26
+3
+2
Bonus Feat
7 (+2)
9
37
10



Activating: The Cyberneticist's epic levels count toward their activator level. The normal energy capacity for a given receptacle is 1 plus 1 for every six levels in the class, as normal, plus whatever bonuses one may get from Improved Energy Capacity and Attachment Focus. They can activate an additional module at 22nd level and every 4 levels after. They can have an additional socket attachment for every fifth level after 22nd as well as every fifth level after 24th.

Epic Stuff: You accrue epic Prowess and Damage Bonus as a Rogue.

Improved Energy Capacity: At 21st level and every six levels, the Cyberneticist finds more tiny ways to optimize their energy channeling, increasing their bonus from Improved Energy Capacity by 1 more. This effectively means their energy capacity improves by 1 every 3 levels. The total for each level is included as a column, with the +2 in parentheses representing the bonus for Attachment Focus.

Personal Enhancement: At 21st level and every 2 levels, the Cyberneticist integrates some minor enhancements into their own body. Choose from the list of bonuses in the Rogue's Epic Skill ability,  except you do not have the option of increasing the DC of poisons or of sneak attack damage; you can instead add +1 to the save DCs of a single module you know or get +2 to your energy pool.

Bonus Feat: At 22nd level and every 2 levels, the Cyberneticist gets a bonus epic or normal feat that fits the theme of the class. Making actual Cyberneticist Class Feats is a problem for Future Gunsforhands.

Reverse Engineering: You can keep adding modules to your list from other classes at 23rd level and every 4 levels beyond. You can instead convert something from incarnum into a module if you want.


*Spoiler: Monster Trainer*
Show

Level
Special

21
Mythic Growth, Arcane Push

22
Epic Perk, Spell Familiarity

23
Arcane Push

24
Epic Perk, Spell Familiarity

25
Arcane Push, Favored Enemy



Mythic Growth: As usual, the trainer can use the Monster Growth feature once each level. If one has mythic ranks, one can use the growth feature to change one of their monsters into the mythic version of that monster, if it exists and does not break the CR limit.

Arcane Push: Using the excess magic of their lower-level spells, a trainer can push their monster's abilities to greater heights. Choose one:
- When casting a spell through a monster, you can sacrifice a lower-level spell to augment it. This works just like the Sorcerer's Arcane Conversion feature, except you don't need to specify the slot ahead of time.
- When you order a monster to attack, you may spend a spell slot to give the monster a +X bonus to attack and damage rolls until end of turn, where X is the level of the spell slot spent this way.
- When you order a monster to move, you can spend a spell slot to give it a bonus of X*10 ft. to its speed and a +X dodge bonus to AC until its next turn, where X is the level of the spell slot spent.
- As an immediate action, when your monster fails an ability check, skill check or saving throw, you can spend a spell slot to make it reroll that check or save with a bonus equal to the level of the spell slot spent.
- As an immediate action, when your monster is dealt damage, you can spend a spell slot to reduce the damage dealt by half your level times the level of the spell slot spent.
The chosen ability can be used twice per day. Abilities can be chosen multiple times, adding two uses per day each time. Arcane Push uses can spend spell slots of level no greater than 4 + 1 per two levels beyond 21st.

Epic Perk: You can choose a Master Perk, three regular perks, or an upgraded version of a regular perk you have. This is a problem for Future Gunsforhands.

Spell Familiarity: (Being a Researcher, Arachne doesn't actually get this. She adds one spell to her journal for free each level as normal, and has to prepare them to use them.)

Favored Enemy: The trainer still gets another favored enemy every fifth level. Gotta catch 'em all, I guess.

----------


## ICN

Well, as usual I spent too long dithering and now find myself short on time. Llyarden, does finishing things tomorrow or early the day after that work? If that does work out, a few mechanics questions:

I'm doing a Fowl Infestation thing, which can draw out ducks or chickens. Ducks (which use the statblock for ravens) work better, but I like drawing out chickens. Can I give chickens the duck statblock?

The Mixed Coordinator feat allows you to treat Beastmastery sphere tamed creatures as Leadership cohorts for the purposes of talents. Can I extend that to also let animal allies benefit from the Conscript Leadership specialization? 

Is a chicken sufficiently close enough to a bird animal companion for the Adopt Animal Ally feat?

----------


## Llyarden

So I am trying to simultaneously write this post and GM an IRL game, apologies if I miss anything.




> Throwing this all up since today was the deadline, last I saw:
> 
> *Spoiler: Epic Progressions (Still need some work on the Epic Collective Wraith abilities)*
> Show
> 
> Collective Wraith Epic Progression?
> -Continues to gains talents as per typical progression
> -An epic wraith ceases to gain new haunts
> -Canny Hive: Upon reaching 21st level, the collective wraith's cohorts can add one point of the collective's casting ability modifier per epic wraith class level as an insight bonus to saving throws and armor class
> ...


Looks good to me.




> Well, as usual I spent too long dithering and now find myself short on time. Llyarden, does finishing things tomorrow or early the day after that work? If that does work out, a few mechanics questions:
> 
> I'm doing a Fowl Infestation thing, which can draw out ducks or chickens. Ducks (which use the statblock for ravens) work better, but I like drawing out chickens. Can I give chickens the duck statblock?
> 
> The Mixed Coordinator feat allows you to treat Beastmastery sphere tamed creatures as Leadership cohorts for the purposes of talents. Can I extend that to also let animal allies benefit from the Conscript Leadership specialization? 
> 
> Is a chicken sufficiently close enough to a bird animal companion for the Adopt Animal Ally feat?


Yes, you can have chickenducks.

No, talents only.

Sure, you can adopt your chickens if you get them killed.

----------


## angelpalm

Both amused and concerned at people making characters that look like they belong in Mystery Men XD

What is the tone expected to be for this game?

----------


## Shiro_Nogard

Reese it's done. Just need to place the magic items where they belong, add a 2 Blacksmith insight and add the homunculus. Lost power at home and the changes are on my PC. 😱


By the way. I like the Red queen. No need to worry about blood here. 👌

----------


## angelpalm

Almost forgot but I wanted to see if this psionic version of the Expanded Spell List epic feat looks good?



*Spoiler: Expanded Power List: 6th level manifester*
Show

Expanded Power List: 6th level manifester [Psionic]
Prerequisites: Magus, Intelligence 21, Caster level 21st
.
Benefit: You add some 7th level powers to your class power
list. 

You can learn powers of the appropriate level from the
Psion/Wilder power list. These powers can be selected as part of
the powers you learn when leveling.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. The second
time you select it, you gain access to powers at 8th level, and the
third time you select it, you gain access to powers at 9th level.

----------


## Shiro_Nogard

Just dropping by to tell the sheet got finished. 

But making an homunculus is a little complicated... or I am thinking it too much? Will ask a friend for that.

----------


## Dr.Gunsforhands

Arachne's done, pending approval for the 21st-level features and of the monster party notes below.

Monster Party:
*Spoiler: Monster Party!*
Show

First the updates:
- I got rid of Drider, because driders have class levels almost by definition and are technically a playable race. Pixie was in much the same boat, plus she didn't really fit Arachne's bug and lawful themes, so she's gone. If I want to broaden the scope of her monsters, I should do it in play. I replaced Pixie's spell list with some on-hand Researcher spells.
- On-hand researcher spells are a mixture of spells she would know from her own monsters and other ones she might reasonably have encountered. I turned the leftover change from the starting funds into a small budget for additional spell research, representing whatever she has lying around in her at-home bookshelf. I'll treat it as scribing supplies for writing down researched spells in the future, I think.

Without further ado, here's the list of monsters that Arachne has cared about enough to use Monster Growth on and keep around.

1. Damon the Titanic Whip Spider (Spiderp -> Whipreen -> Spitanic)
_When a mana spike grew a dungeon over Arachne's school, the pet spider she had already trained grew into a Jungle Whip Spider to protect her. Damon has been with her ever since, eating five uses of her Growth class feature along the way. He is now roughly the size of a passenger jet._

2. Jorogumo (Aranea -> Jorogumo -> Possibly Mythic Jorogumo)
_The true boss of Arachne's first dungeon wouldn't be catchable, but the shape-shifting mini-boss at the end of her first adventure was. She ran the spellcasting tutorial part of the game. It took a long time for the aranea to absorb enough echoes of Arachne's personality and of mythological tropes to gain her newer, more powerful form, but her web-working skills were integral to Arachne's technological aspirations in the meantime._

3. Rust Lord (Rustmite -> Rustlord)
_Rusty was one of the high points in the mid-level shenanigans phase. Arachne was lucky enough to be dating a bard who would eagerly stroke her ego for bonuses. Athens could only half-deal with such a thing as a rust monster and it was easy to tease her with it. Even so, the growing Rustlord was a beloved pet to the whole guild branch and a handy ally to have in their back pocket._

4. Thriae Constructor (Beedevil -> Dronstruct)
_The Hive was way above our pay grade at the time, but we had to bail out Teddy because he went to hit on the lower-ranking bee women and got stuffed in a wall of wax. Our relationship didn't last long after that, but the bee women were semi-mindless and weak to Capture Monster, so that was nice._

5. Thriae Queen (Beedevil -> Beewitch)
_By the time the guild branch was strong enough to return and beat The Hive properly, Athens had far surpassed Arachne as an adventurer - martial arts, survival skills, more versatile summoned outsiders than Arachne could manually catch, and effortlessly gorgeous to boot. Still, bringing down the dungeon with the aid of a new rival queen earned the duo some style points before Athens left Arachne behind._

6. Norn (Sheardako -> Norn)
_A spooky long-haired kid that appeared in a dungeon where she seemingly didn't belong, ranting about doomed timelines and her sisters abandoning her and the earth spinning too fast to keep up. As usual, once captured, she could not explain what she might have been on about. Nonetheless, she quickly accepted Arachne as her partner in destiny. Evolving the young Fey into a full Norn catalyzed Arachne's Fate-based Mythic rank._

Etc. (Various Vermin)
_Over time, Arachne has caught a bunch of mundane vermin and magical beasts that haven't been interesting enough to spend Growths on. Some she calls on to spar with lower-level adventurers for practice. Others have been released and sacrificed, becoming specimens and materials for her research. A phase spider's astral sac inspired her cybernetic teleporter. A magic antlion inspired her gravitic fortitude-booster. Things like that! Other specimens just die of old age, because mutant bugs don't usually live long._


Edit: Also reposting the epic stuff.
Edit Edit: I'll also paraphrase the Researcher archetype features in this section, since they're not on the SRD as they should be.

*Spoiler: That stuff I just said*
Show

*Spoiler: Cyberneticist*
Show



Level
Prowess
Damage Bonus
Special
Energy Capacity
Active Modules
Energy Pool
Socket Attachments

21
-
+1
Personal Enhancement, Improved Energy Capacity
6 (+2)
7
27
8

22
+1
+1
Bonus Feat
6 (+2)
8
29
9

23
+1
+1
Personal Enhancement, Reverse Engineering
6 (+2)
8
31
9

24
+2
+1
Bonus Feat
7 (+2)
8
33
10

25
+2
+2
Personal Enhancement
7 (+2)
8
35
10

26
+3
+2
Bonus Feat
7 (+2)
9
37
10



Activating: The Cyberneticist's epic levels count toward their activator level. The normal energy capacity for a given receptacle is 1 plus 1 for every six levels in the class, as normal, plus whatever bonuses one may get from Improved Energy Capacity and Attachment Focus. They can activate an additional module at 22nd level and every 4 levels after. They can have an additional socket attachment for every fifth level after 22nd as well as every fifth level after 24th.

Epic Stuff: You accrue epic Prowess and Damage Bonus as a Rogue.

Improved Energy Capacity: At 21st level and every six levels, the Cyberneticist finds more tiny ways to optimize their energy channeling, increasing their bonus from Improved Energy Capacity by 1 more. This effectively means their energy capacity improves by 1 every 3 levels. The total for each level is included as a column, with the +2 in parentheses representing the bonus for Attachment Focus.

Personal Enhancement: At 21st level and every 2 levels, the Cyberneticist integrates some minor enhancements into their own body. Choose from the list of bonuses in the Rogue's Epic Skill ability,  except you do not have the option of increasing the DC of poisons or of sneak attack damage; you can instead add +1 to the save DCs of a single module you know or get +2 to your energy pool.

Bonus Feat: At 22nd level and every 2 levels, the Cyberneticist gets a bonus epic or normal feat that fits the theme of the class. Making actual Cyberneticist Class Feats is a problem for Future Gunsforhands.

Reverse Engineering: You can keep adding modules to your list from other classes at 23rd level and every 4 levels beyond. You can instead convert something from incarnum into a module if you want.


*Spoiler: Monster Trainer*
Show

Level
Special

21
Mythic Growth, Arcane Push

22
Epic Perk, Spell Familiarity

23
Arcane Push

24
Epic Perk, Spell Familiarity

25
Arcane Push, Favored Enemy



Mythic Growth: As usual, the trainer can use the Monster Growth feature once each level. If one has mythic ranks, one can use the growth feature to change one of their monsters into the mythic version of that monster, if it exists and does not break the CR limit.

Arcane Push: Using the excess magic of their lower-level spells, a trainer can push their monster's abilities to greater heights. Choose one:
- When casting a spell through a monster, you can sacrifice a lower-level spell to augment it. This works just like the Sorcerer's Arcane Conversion feature, except you don't need to specify the slot ahead of time.
- When you order a monster to attack, you may spend a spell slot to give the monster a +X bonus to attack and damage rolls until end of turn, where X is the level of the spell slot spent this way.
- When you order a monster to move, you can spend a spell slot to give it a bonus of X*10 ft. to its speed and a +X dodge bonus to AC until its next turn, where X is the level of the spell slot spent.
- As an immediate action, when your monster fails an ability check, skill check or saving throw, you can spend a spell slot to make it reroll that check or save with a bonus equal to the level of the spell slot spent.
- As an immediate action, when your monster is dealt damage, you can spend a spell slot to reduce the damage dealt by half your level times the level of the spell slot spent.
The chosen ability can be used twice per day. Abilities can be chosen multiple times, adding two uses per day each time. Arcane Push uses can spend spell slots of level no greater than 4 + 1 per two levels beyond 21st.

Epic Perk: You can choose a Master Perk, three regular perks, or an upgraded version of a regular perk you have. This is a problem for Future Gunsforhands.

Spell Familiarity: (Being a Researcher, Arachne doesn't actually get this. She adds two spells to her journal each level as normal, and has to prepare them to use them.)

Favored Enemy: The trainer still gets another favored enemy every fifth level. Gotta catch 'em all, I guess.


*Spoiler: Researcher Archetype*
Show

- A monster Researcher's hit die is d6, and her base attack follows the Sor/Wiz progression. (Doesn't matter here because gestalt)

- She gains no armor proficiency nor any spell failure reduction. (I realized this at the last minute and squeezed in feats to fix it)

- Researcher's Knowledge:
- - She adds half her level to Knowledge checks regarding monsters.
- - She can make Knowledge checks about monsters untrained.

- Intelligence is her spellcasting ability modifier.

- She doesn't get Channel Monster nor Spell Familiarity. Instead she has a Researcher's Journal:
- - Physically the same as a wizard spell book
- - Start with 10 cantrips and 3+Int 1st-level spells
- - She adds 2 spells each level for free from the spells her caught monsters can grant.
- - She can't do research from books or scrolls the way a Wizard does.
- - Instead, she needs to learn a spell by studying a monster that can grant it.
- - To use a spell from her research notes, she must prepare them as a wizard would. She can prepare any number when she prepares spells, replacing spontaneous slots on a one-for-one basis. (Arachne mostly uses this ability to prepare Contingency, thereby allowing her to combine it with non-spider spells.)

- She gets a bonus metamagic, item creation, familiar or Extra Perk feat at 13th level. (So, feat-wise, between this and the arcane spell failure thing, we're actually completely even with the way I was doing this before. Neat!)



Edit Edit Edit: also reposting the table because it's not on this page yet.

*Spoiler: The Table Doesn't Stop Being Big*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Manticore/Alex Paol
Evolutionist 21 | Freelancer 21

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke
Lilliana Hesporath
Legendary Fighter (Steelbound Soldier) 21 // Monk (Qinggong Zen) 21

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)

Dakrsidder
Meteon
Philosopher 11 / Silent Blade 10 | Extractor 9 / Paragon 2 / Awakened Dreamer 10

Angelpalm
Shun
Cryptic 20 / Aegis 1 | Helsman 7 / Sorcerer 11 / Machine Scion 10

Duqueen
Kaiser
Freelancer(Monsterkin) 21 | Braggart 21

Volthawk
Tobias Blackwood
Chi Monk 21// Chi Ninja 21

QuantumFlash
H3-1P
Monsterkin Freelancer 21//Spellscorn Fighter 20/Unmage 1

Enceladus
Magonindis
FF Summoner 20/ Allagan Arcanimist 1 // FF Cleric 20 / Daivrat 1[/URL]

Thunder999
Vanen
Echo 21//Mystic 20/Daring Hero 1

Da'Shain
Shezekhia Shane, "Red Queen"
Cruoroclast 17/Great Mind 4 // Legendary Kineticist 20/Incanter 1

----------


## Shiro_Nogard

Could make you a pixie. Technically a homunculus is already the size and can take any form the creator wants.

Is there any cloth armor? What benefits or limits would it bring?

----------


## Dr.Gunsforhands

> Could make you a pixie. Technically a homunculus is already the size and can take any form the creator wants.
> 
> Is there any cloth armor? What benefits or limits would it bring?


I mean, if you're offering to let her steal your homunculus, it wouldn't be the same as a pixie for her purposes but it WOULD be very funny.  :Small Tongue: 

When you ask whether there's cloth armor, do you mean, like... does any exist at all? Such armor is certainly a thing in the game. Haramaki and Silk Ceremonial Robe each don't add any arcane spell failure chance. If you're just trying to avoid metal and leather for some reason, I might go so far as to suggest this spider-silk bodysuit as long as our characters are theoretically trading stuff.

----------


## ICN

Apologies, that took considerably longer than I thought it would. Missing some bits, but the main things are there for Lydia.

*Spoiler: Mechanics*
Show

Since all the oddities arise from interactions  between talents and feats, rather than class abilities, I figured some  explanation was warranted. Lydia is a close range support focused  character, who uses the renewable chickens provided by Fowl Infestation  tamed through the Beastmastery sphere. Taming new chickens takes a full  round action. Generally Lydia has some baseline buffing, boosted by the  chickens. 
Lydia Base / Chicken boost
Attack: +8 / +5 (Aid another through Masterful Coordination)
AC: 0 / +11 (+5 Aid another, +2 cover bonus from adjacency (Stalking  Purring feat), +1 (recommending a cap of +4) per adjacent chicken from  Swarm Scatter)
Saves: +4 / +4 (Shake It Off teamwork feat) 
Caster Level: +4 (One sphere)/ Up to +5 (Circle Casting rules, chickens  get it through sharing a Spell Proxy with the Improving Purring feat) 

A chicken can:
Intimidate something (+34 bonus)
Aid another 
Attack a friend (allows Lydia, if she's adjacent, to transfer a condition they're suffering from to herself as an AoO)
Adjacent chickens provide bonuses to people.
Heal 12 HP to an adjacent target (Can be used to harm enemies if they  fail a fort save against a hostile shapeshift. Once per combat Lydia can  throw a big punch or heal of ~500 damage, but then she'd have to spend  actions to refill Fount of Life.)

Basically, Lydia has some stuff she can do herself, plus a pool of up to  22 chickens that can do minor things with standard actions or adjacency  bonuses. She's got some things to help them not explode, but they're  still quite fragile. There's more stuff, but this is already feeling a bit wall of texty, so just going with the overview.



*Spoiler: Fluff*
Show

Tried something a bit different with the fluff. Focused  on a vignette and left the rest pretty barebones, leaving some room for  development during play.

*Spoiler: Vignette*
Show


"You can come in now, Ms. Fowler," came Mr. Johnson's voice from inside  the Adventurer's Guild office. Lydia took a breath, bracing herself.  There had definitely been some setbacks and disappointments when she'd  first gained her powers, but she'd managed to make it work all the same,  as a few recent forays had proven. Now all she needed to do was get  officially approved  as an adventurer by the Guild. Surely they'd look  at the results rather than the trappings. She walked in, took a seat in  the available chair, and plastered on her best fake smile. 

Mr. Johnson typed a "Ah yes, you're the erstwhile vigilante dungeon  delver looking to make it official. And you'd like to start at B rank,  no less. Well, let's hear your pitch then, Chicken Lady."

With some effort, Lydia managed to maintain her professional demeanor. "Actually, I've been going by the Avian Avenger."

"Really?" Mr. Johnson turned to his monitor, bringing up a list. "We  haven't seen that name used in relation to you at all. It's all things  like the 'Henpecker' or the 'Mother Clucker' or... well, you get the  gist. You really don't seem to command any respect at all, nothing like  our other heroes." 

Lydia very nearly managed to suppress the eye twitch, her fake smile  slipping a bit. "People can be so... creative. Really, it just shows  that the public see me as a warm, approachable figure that they can  share a laugh with."

"At. 'At' is the word you're looking for. Nevertheless, I have reviewed  your file and I believe there are some suitable options for you outside  the realm of combat. With your skills with animals, there are many  possibilities in the realm of public relations and community outreach  programs. These things are invaluable to the operations of the Guild,  and sends a much better message than us sending out a young woman to  face down monsters with a band of poultry." 

With a heroic effort, Lydia kept the crumbling remains of her smile from  collapsing completely. "Better message? I believe I am demonstrating a  commitment to ideals of community, strength through unity, and that  everyone, no matter how small, can make a positive difference. It's  quite inspiring really. Would the Guild really turn down the assistance  of these fearless crusaders?"

"They're chickens, Ms. Fowler."

"Descendants of dinosaurs."

Mr. Johnson rubbed his temples. "It seems I will have to be more direct  with you. Ms. Fowler, you must look at the bigger picture. Consider how  frightening the Otherworld is for regular people, people who know that  if the Otherworlders fail they'll be sitting ducks to the monsters  unleashed. Am I supposed to tell them that," his eyes flicked over to  the screen, "the 'Rooster Booster' is on the way? What about the other  adventurers? If I tell them they're doing good work, but nonetheless are  ranked below the 'Chick Chick', how are they going to take it? The  supportive nature of your powers only reinforces the biases people would  have against you; you'd be the leech, just coasting off the abilities  of your betters, enabled by the guild. No matter the truth of your  abilities, Ms. Fowler, the costs of recognizing them would do more harm  than good. If you'd just consider an alternative path however, you could  still be a real help for the organization."

Lydia sighed and slumped a little in her seat, her professional facade  breaking. "Look, Johnson, I get where you're coming from. You think I  chose chickens when they were handing out superpowers? But we play the  cards we're dealt, and I've managed to make them into a pretty good  hand. I'm not going to rot away running petting zoos and doing PR events  when I could be doing some real good in the dungeons. People can't  reconcile a hero with the chickens? I'll just keep going until they can  see it, one mission at a time. If that means I do it in an unofficial  capacity, without your support, so be it.

Mr. Johnson considered her for a moment. "Very well, have it your way  then. We can start you at probationary rank 1 and you can attempt to  work your way up from there. If you can earn a reputation the hard way,  it could offset some of the other factors. Welcome to the bottom of the  barrel, Ms. Fowler. And, should you change your mind after facing some  harsh realities, those other avenues I mentioned remain open." 

Well, it wasn't what she'd hoped for, but it'd do. She got up, and  exchanged a resigned handshake. As she made to leave though, Mr. Johnson  permitted himself a small smile. "And tell you what, Ms. Fowler, if the  sky ever starts falling, we'll give you a call." Lydia flipped him the  bird as she walked out.


Background: After many years of hard work, Lydia has managed to attain  rank A. That's not to say that her reputation improved all that much  though. Guild members often see her as a lucky charm. Regular people see  her as a good sign; if it was that bad, obviously they wouldn't send  the chicken lady.

Personality: Lydia is a serious, dedicated person at her core, but years  of being the chicken lady have given her a layer of reflexive snark. 



*Spoiler: What's Unfinished?*
Show

There are a bunch of Freelancer points left  over I'm pretty sure. I'm okay leaving them unspent, since I feel like  I've already gotten a lot out of the class. If Lydia is lacking  somewhere, it's an easy pool to dip into to shore up a weakness.

Conscript needs an epic progression; I figure cribbing something from Fighter or something.

Animal Companion: Definitely serving as a mount (thanks, Conforming  Mountlord's Saddle), but undecided as to whether they'll be a man-eating  chicken with swallow whole, which I find amusing but is a more  disruptive option, or continue the support/debuffing thing Lydia's got  going.

Various bits and bobs: The core of the character is there, but it's just  a lot easier to fill in the edges when there's a distinct party and  more concrete optimization level to work around. Some adjustments are  going to be necessary I figure. Plus it's getting late.



*Spoiler: The Table Goes Ever On and On*
Show

Player
Character
Classes

AvatarVecna
Manticore/Alex Paol
Evolutionist 21 | Freelancer 21

Darius Vibrtrar
Durren of the Shadow
Cleric 6/Black Flame Zealot 10 / Dark Hunter 5 | Monk 5/ Assassin 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6

greenpotato
"Gore" Erica Etwa Winston
Freelancer 21 | invulnerable rager Painted Savage barbarian 20 / eternal 1

Hamste
The Endless One
Reincarnated Druid 16/Brightness Seeker 5 | Tortured Crusader Paladin 11/Scar Seeker 10

samduke
Lilliana Hesporath
Legendary Fighter (Steelbound Soldier) 21 // Monk (Qinggong Zen) 21

Ridai
Danny Bimsley
Tall Tale (Gestalt version) 21

grumblyarcher
Collective
Collective Wraith 21 | Martial Living Weapon Armorist 21

Dr.Gunsforhands
Arachne 
Cyberneticist 21 | Monster Trainer 21

Yas392
Nomen
Mime 21 | Freelancer 21

Shiro_Nogard
Reese McGram
Quartzer 20 (ffd20)/Professional Duelist 1 (ffd20)//Spellforge 16 (Spheres)/Realmwalker 5 (Spheres)

Dakrsidder
Meteon
Philosopher 11 / Silent Blade 10 | Extractor 9 / Paragon 2 / Awakened Dreamer 10

Angelpalm
Shun
Cryptic 20 / Aegis 1 | Helsman 7 / Sorcerer 11 / Machine Scion 10

Duqueen
Kaiser
Freelancer(Monsterkin) 21 | Braggart 21

Volthawk
Tobias Blackwood
Chi Monk 21// Chi Ninja 21

QuantumFlash
H3-1P
Monsterkin Freelancer 21//Spellscorn Fighter 20/Unmage 1

Enceladus
Magonindis
FF Summoner 20/ Allagan Arcanimist 1 // FF Cleric 20 / Daivrat 1[/URL]

Thunder999
Vanen
Echo 21//Mystic 20/Daring Hero 1

Da'Shain
Shezekhia Shane, "Red Queen"
Cruoroclast 17/Great Mind 4 // Legendary Kineticist 20/Incanter 1

ICN
Lydia Fowler
Conscript 21/ Freelancer 21

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## Shiro_Nogard

> I mean, if you're offering to let her steal your homunculus, it wouldn't be the same as a pixie for her purposes but it WOULD be very funny. 
> 
> When you ask whether there's cloth armor, do you mean, like... does any exist at all? Such armor is certainly a thing in the game. Haramaki and Silk Ceremonial Robe each don't add any arcane spell failure chance. If you're just trying to avoid metal and leather for some reason, I might go so far as to suggest this spider-silk bodysuit as long as our characters are theoretically trading stuff.


That would be interesting. But was talking more about crafting one for you. Trickster mythical path can get all the craft magical items feats in one level. So craft a pixie look a like homunculus would be a piece of cake.

I was looking for armor hat doesn't count as armor. My class is like a monk, so any armor has to have the note: does not count as armor for my class powers to work. Spider silk work like that? Would I look sexy enough with it? Now that you remind me...

Llyarden, I would like to see if this homunculus from eberron it's ok for you:  Dedicated Wright


Would have bought it, but the notes state it's never sold.

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## Llyarden

Okay, after a great deal of going back and forth trying to narrow down that giant list of nearly twenty apps, my selected four players are as follows:

*Da'Shain* with Red Queen
*Dakrsidder* with Meteon
*Denomar* with Joshua Weiss
*Dr.Gunsforhands* with Arachne

Uh, I swear I didn't only pick people whose usernames began with D.  :Small Big Grin: 

Thank you all very much for your applications.

OOC thread will be up either later tonight or tomorrow.

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## Ridai

Congrats to those who got in.  :Small Big Grin: 

I enjoyed making a character for this (after I got back on my chair after falling off it because of getting critical hit by the feat list), even if I didn't end up making the most spectacular character in the end. It was nice to have high-level/epic character creation to be pretty low pressure and not awful.  :Small Smile:

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## Da'Shain

Awesome, thanks for picking Zeka!  Looking forward to it!

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## Volthawk

Congrats to all who got in, yeah. Personally ended up in a situation where the guy I had wasn't quite where I wanted him/felt a bit off and the other ideas I had were kind of a pain to put together for an epic character, and in the end nothing got completely finished.

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## Shiro_Nogard

Well, that happened. Hope you all have fun!

Also Llyarden, keep us posted if you need to fill a spot, would ya?
Happy gaming!

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## Dr.Gunsforhands

> I was looking for armor hat doesn't count as armor. My class is like a monk, so any armor has to have the note: does not count as armor for my class powers to work.


Ohh. No, as far as I know, all armor counts as armor, except possibly for Mage Armor. Optimizers are always saying to buy a wand of Mage Armor if you can Use Magic Device at all.

Also, ahhh! Sorry Denomar, I didn't realize we skipped over you in the table! I'm glad Llyarden caught it.




> Player
> Character
> Classes
> 
> Denomar
> Joshua Weiss
> Lantern 21 | Omdura 20 / Oracle 1
> 
> Dr.Gunsforhands
> ...

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## Llyarden

A bit late for this game, but spheres offers shadowstuff armour, which can count as any kind of armour, including 'none.'

Here's the OOC thread.

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