# Forum > Comics > The Order of the Stick >  Did Varsuuvius really kill Penelope? Or the Linear Guilds OTHER Elf Wizard

## PLD

We are lead to believe Penelope died by Familicides hand in this imagine spot. We are also told that Zzdtri, the linear guild wizard, was using  Penelope as a tool to find the Draketooth Gate.

But yet a bonus strip in Blood Runs in the Family shows Qarr the imp present when Zzdtri leaves infringement prison. Qarr who joined forces with the IFCC AFTER Familicide happened. 

So Zzdtri could never have aided Penelope as he was released from prison after she died.

Thoughts?

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## hroþila

Even though at first glance it would be the most natural assumption, you don't actually need to assume Qarr was working for the IFCC at that point. His dialogue in that bonus strip is vague enough that it could refer to any other group of demons doing your standard Faustian tempting. He had a job before the IFCC after all. It sounds more plausible to me than the idea that Penelope's death was unrelated to Familicide and somehow the story never set the record straight on that point.

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## hungrycrow

> Even though at first glance it would be the most natural assumption, you don't actually need to assume Qarr was working for the IFCC at that point. His dialogue in that bonus strip is vague enough that it could refer to any other group of demons doing your standard Faustian tempting. He had a job before the IFCC after all. It sounds more plausible to me than the idea that Penelope's death was unrelated to Familicide and somehow the story never set the record straight on that point.


I'm not sure about the timeline, but wasn't Qarr working with Kubota until he met V? Does he appear in Therkla's prequel book?

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## PLD

> I'm not sure about the timeline, but wasn't Qarr working with Kubota until he met V? Does he appear in Therkla's prequel book?


He is. So he would never have been in infringement prison. So Zzdtri would never have met Penelope

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## hungrycrow

> He is. So he would never have been in infringement prison. So Zzdtri would never have met Penelope


Well he can teleport, so maybe he took a day off, went to make a deal with Z, went back to Kubota, and then later by sheer coincidence got sent to help Z again by a completely different demonic group?

Honestly I think the most likely answer is continuity error. Even the Giant can make mistakes.

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## hamishspence

Maybe someone else pulled the same stunt as V on Zz'dtri, forcing him into Infringement Prison a second time?

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## hroþila

I don't think that'd be a day off. I think he'd be with Kubota as part of the same job. Hell, it's even possible that he was working for the IFCC all along and he didn't realize.

But yes, it's quite possible that it's a continuity error.

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## Coppercloud

Like many others, my guess is continuity error. I think if it was intended as a plot point, it would have been in the main comic. Also, kudos for pointing it out.

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## gbaji

> I don't think that'd be a day off. I think he'd be with Kubota as part of the same job. Hell, it's even possible that he was working for the IFCC all along and he didn't realize.
> 
> But yes, it's quite possible that it's a continuity error.


Either could be correct. The whole "working for the IFCC all along" does have some merit though. Let's not forget that they list the linear guild as one of their assets on the board at some point, so it's entirely possible the IFCC has a lot of pokers in the fire, and some of them bear fruit (and the others don't, or we aren't aware of them if they aren't relevant to this story). The directors aren't going to get directly involved in every single thing, so we can assume a lot of their machinations are done through lower level demons/devils/whatever, and most of them are certainly not going to know the bigger picture going on. One can even argue that by farming out smaller tasks like this across all three domains, it makes it harder for any of the gods or whomever "controls" the planes they represent to actually see what's going on.

It's also possible (probable even?) that Qarr was working with Kubuto in the first place because the IFCC wanted him there for some reason. Sure, tempting someone to evil is a standard thing, one can assume, but it's also convenient that it caused Kubuto to be an obstacle to the potential defense of Azure city right at the time when banding together might have prevented Team Evil from succeeding. I've put forth the idea that the IFCC seems to want the gates destroyed to force the gods to destroy the world (they saw Hel's gambit as a positive for their plans). Setting aside the risk of the snarl being semi-controlled by Team Evil, Azure city absolutely has to fall for the gods to destroy the world. What a coincidence that there's an imp messing with one of the most powerful nobles right then, and that noble decides to pull his (quite large) faction's support defending the city on the eve of the battle.

So whomever Qarr was working for at the time, presumably reported up a chain of other's ultimately to one of the three directors. He just got a big promotion when he was at the right place doing his usual imp thing with V at the right time. So yeah. Plausible IMO. Probable even.

Doesn't at all preclude that Rich just messed up the continuity as well though. Just throwing an "out" in there.

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## Mike Havran

I believe it's an error. The idea that Qarr somehow managed to squeeze Z's recruitment within his Kubota duty, on the IFCC's behalf, and still be surprised to see them, seems too convoluted to me. One other possibility is that the imp in 855a flashback was not Qarr, but another imp running errands for the IFCC, who was replaced by Qarr after he joined the fiends and that Z did not bother to elaborate on the detail.

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## gbaji

> I believe it's an error. The idea that Qarr somehow managed to squeeze Z's recruitment within his Kubota duty, on the IFCC's behalf, and still be surprised to see them, seems too convoluted to me. One other possibility is that the imp in 855a flashback was not Qarr, but another imp running errands for the IFCC, who was replaced by Qarr after he joined the fiends and that Z did not bother to elaborate on the detail.


Eh. He can teleport and plane shift. It would take him all of 10 minutes to do this. It's certainly within the realm of possibility that he was working for a middle management type, just following orders, and that neither he, nor his immediate "boss" had any clue at all what the purpose of those orders were, or that they came directly from their respective director, much less that all three directors were working together (the IFCC). So it's possible for Qarr to have done what he did, not knowing who he was ultimately working for, and therefore be surprised when the IFCC showed up personally when he did the whole deal for V thing.

I'm admittedly just trying to come up with some rational for the timeline after the fact, but it is technically possible. It does seem plausible that much of the work the IFCC does would be farmed out through lower level demons and whatever that report to each of them respectively. No point in tipping their hands until it's time to do so.

I think the bigger point here is that we know that Z was working with the Linear Guild trying to get Penelope to help them narrow down the location of Girard's gate. We also know that her death coincides very very closely (if not exactly) with when V did the familicide spell. So regardless of Qarr's involvement or not, one had to have happened before the other. And while I suppose we could speculate about some other thing that may have just happened to have killed her at the same time, it seems more reasonable to go with the one thing we know happened about that time that we also know would have killed her.

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## Eric the White

I was assuming it was just another imp.

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## brian 333

Quarr seemed to know what he was doing when he recruited V.

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## Mike Havran

> Eh. He can teleport and plane shift. It would take him all of 10 minutes to do this. It's certainly within the realm of possibility that he was working for a middle management type, just following orders, and that neither he, nor his immediate "boss" had any clue at all what the purpose of those orders were, or that they came directly from their respective director, much less that all three directors were working together (the IFCC). So it's possible for Qarr to have done what he did, not knowing who he was ultimately working for, and therefore be surprised when the IFCC showed up personally when he did the whole deal for V thing.
> 
> I'm admittedly just trying to come up with some rational for the timeline after the fact, but it is technically possible. It does seem plausible that much of the work the IFCC does would be farmed out through lower level demons and whatever that report to each of them respectively. No point in tipping their hands until it's time to do so.
> 
> I think the bigger point here is that we know that Z was working with the Linear Guild trying to get Penelope to help them narrow down the location of Girard's gate. We also know that her death coincides very very closely (if not exactly) with when V did the familicide spell. So regardless of Qarr's involvement or not, one had to have happened before the other. And while I suppose we could speculate about some other thing that may have just happened to have killed her at the same time, it seems more reasonable to go with the one thing we know happened about that time that we also know would have killed her.


I'm not disputing that Vaarsuvius killed Penelope. I also understand that it's technically possible for Qarr to be able to swich between his duties to Kubota and his recruitment of Z from prison so that his appearance in 855a flashback doesn't contradict anything. It's just I feel Qarr never displayed that level of sophistication. 

All his appearances suggest that he had been advising Kubota long before the IFCC learned about the gates from Sabine (Therkla and Qarr are accustomed to see each other by the time Sabine informs the IFCC), and that Qarr was absoulutely unaware of any of that. 

Then Kubota died and Qarr, instead of reporting back and asking another assignment (or just returning to Z), flew after loose V. He originally wanted some irrelevant chalice when he proposed cooperation to V, and displayed no recognition when IFCC showed him Linear Guild despite he should had been acquainted with Z by then. 

Therefore my take that would explain 855a is that the imp in the flashback is not Qarr, but a different IFCC employee.

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## WanderingMist

> I believe it's an error. The idea that Qarr somehow managed to squeeze Z's recruitment within his Kubota duty, on the IFCC's behalf, and still be surprised to see them, seems too convoluted to me. One other possibility is that the imp in 855a flashback was not Qarr, but another imp running errands for the IFCC, who was replaced by Qarr after he joined the fiends and that Z did not bother to elaborate on the detail.


I agree that it's unlikely, but I'd like to quote Sabine & Nale on the supposed difficulty:

"Heck, I had sex 4 times while I was away" -Sabine

"You...you were gone for half an hour." -Nale

"Yeah, well, I had errands to run, too." -Sabine

I don't remember how long she was actually gone, feel free to correct that.

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## Precure

Watsonian answer: Different imp.

Doylist answer: Continuity error.

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## gbaji

> All his appearances suggest that he had been advising Kubota long before the IFCC learned about the gates from Sabine (Therkla and Qarr are accustomed to see each other by the time Sabine informs the IFCC), and that Qarr was absoulutely unaware of any of that.


That's not true though. Sabine informed the IFCC about the gates in strip 380 right before Nale tried to seduce and sacrifice Haley. That's before the war, before the fall of Azure City, and 3.5  months before the wedding scene on the ship in strip 503 where Therkla and Qarr are first introduced. Kubuto is first introduced in strip 414 (he's seen earlier, but only speaks then), when he refuses to participate in the war, and the bulk of the nobles follow him. There's no indication of Qarr at that time (although he certainly could have been around "advising" him or something).

Since Kuboto wasn't even introduced until _after_ Sabine informed the IFCC about the gates, we can't know or assume anything at all about whether Qarr was there before then, or immediately after (perhaps to "advise" him not to help with defense of the city/gate), or quite some time after that point (on the fleet, "advising" him about how to take control from Hinjo). We only know that he's there, on the fleet, helping to try to kill of Hinjo 3.5 months after the fall of Azure City.

It's entirely possible that the IFCC learned of the gates from Sabine, hit upon their "plan" (which seems to involve allowing all the gates to be destroyed), looked around for resources and realized that one of them had an underling 5 or 6 steps down the reporting chain already working on an evil Noble in Azure City, and sent orders down the chain to that underling (Qarr), without said underling having any clue why he got the orders, or how high up they came from, and certainly not that it was a joint operation of all three directors. So it's possible that Qarr was working for them without knowing it all along, and only became aware of it (and got a hefty promotion) when he "recruited" V.

It's also possible that the IFCC knew about the gates all along, and Sabine informing them wasn't necessary for them to know, but did put her in their orbit as someone they could use who was already "in the know" about the gates, so they could use her more directly from that point on (same with Qarr somewhat later on). I'm not sure on this theory though, since it seems like they do want the gates destroyed, and Azure City was more of a fluke that they could not have controlled. Although if the gate wasn't threatened by Team Evil, there was zero chance of it being destroyed, at least from their perspective, so maybe? Again, they could not have known about, much less planned the actual events involving Miko. It happened to work out right for them (gate destroyed), but then Zykon "sat on his butt" for months, and they used V to get him moving again. They also used V to ensure that Girard's gate was destroyed, and stated the Hel's plans would have worked in their favor, so everything after that point is clearly about trying to ensure that all 5 gates are destroyed.




> Then Kubota died and Qarr, instead of reporting back and asking another assignment (or just returning to Z), flew after loose V. He originally wanted some irrelevant chalice when he proposed cooperation to V, and displayed no recognition when IFCC showed him Linear Guild despite he should had been acquainted with Z by then.


Yeah. And it's also interesting that Z's picture has an X on it at the time. Which would suggest that he was no longer available to be used. Which yeah, suggests that Z had not yet been broken out by that point. Or, it could be that Z was, and that's just because Rich didn't want the readers to know this just yet (there's a few cases of misdirection in the comic done for this reason). Qarr's reaction could also be about concealing this information as well. It's not like Rich is going to write dialogue like "Hey. That's the dark elf I got out of prison! You guys arranged that too!". That would tip things off to the readers.




> Therefore my take that would explain 855a is that the imp in the flashback is not Qarr, but a different IFCC employee.


And that's totally possible too. Heck. The theory I'm going with to make it even possible for Qarr to have done it relies on the assumption that the IFCC works through a ton of underlings who don't actually know about the IFCC at all, so one imp works as well as another. From a story point of view, it may as well have been another, because if it was Qarr, he also would have just been "some random imp" as far as the directors were concerned at that point in time. Until it's confirmed one way or another, we don't know. And honestly, it  doesn't really matter at all. The bigger point is that none of this points to Penelope having been killed by anything other than what we were told: Familicide.

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## hamishspence

> That's not true though. Sabine informed the IFCC about the gates in strip 380 right before Nale tried to seduce and sacrifice Haley. That's before the war, before the fall of Azure City, and 3.5  months before the wedding scene on the ship in strip 503 where Therkla and Qarr are first introduced. Kubuto is first introduced in strip 414 (he's seen earlier, but only speaks then), when he refuses to participate in the war, and the bulk of the nobles follow him. There's no indication of Qarr at that time (although he certainly could have been around "advising" him or something).
> 
> Since Kuboto wasn't even introduced until _after_ Sabine informed the IFCC about the gates, we can't know or assume anything at all about whether Qarr was there before then, or immediately after (perhaps to "advise" him not to help with defense of the city/gate), or quite some time after that point (on the fleet, "advising" him about how to take control from Hinjo). We only know that he's there, on the fleet, helping to try to kill of Hinjo 3.5 months after the fall of Azure City.


Qarr is _heard_ (but not _seen_) in strip 484:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html

And he and Therkla interact in the _Spoiler Alert_ comic as co-workers, in _Good Deeds Gone Unpunished_, which is set shortly before Shojo's death.

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## gbaji

Huh. Completely missed that. Ok. That erases the additional 3.5 months then. I was not aware of the scene in GDGU either. Sabine tells the IFCC about the gates just one day before Shojo is killed, so yeah, that does put Qarr working with Kubuto prior to that point in time.

Honestly though, as long as we take Qarr's stated lack of awareness of the IFCC until after the deal with V as truth (and I see no reason not to), we're still left with either Qarr being the one who released Z, but didn't know why (orders from on high), or some other random imp doing so (also probably with no knowledge of the IFCC either), which really doesn't make any difference either way. The timeline of other events aren't significant in that regard.

They do make for interesting speculation, however, about whether the IFCC actually already knew about the gates *before* Sabine ran off to tell them. I'm personally of the opinion that they did, and had things in motion long before hand, and Sabine's actions really only served to put her more directly in their service (as V's deal did for Qarr). From a story telling point of view, those things served to allow us, the readers, to learn about the IFCC via interaction with other characters who had already been introduced.

I have no clue what the IFCCs real goal is, but based on events in the comic, it does seem as though they do want the gates destroyed, and the snarl released (or at least put into "imminent release" condition), to force the gods to act. So my pet theory is that Qarr was sent to Kubuto specifically to work him in some way to weaken Azure city so that its gate could be destroyed. I don't think Qarr knew that he was working for the IFCC though. Just "following orders" and assisting a human in doing "evil" things.

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## Peelee

> Huh. Completely missed that. Ok. That erases the additional 3.5 months then. I was not aware of the scene in GDGU either. Sabine tells the IFCC about the gates just one day before Shojo is killed, so yeah, that does put Qarr working with Kubuto prior to that point in time.
> 
> Honestly though, as long as we take Qarr's stated lack of awareness of the IFCC until after the deal with V as truth (and I see no reason not to), we're still left with either Qarr being the one who released Z, but didn't know why (orders from on high), or some other random imp doing so (also probably with no knowledge of the IFCC either), which really doesn't make any difference either way.


Qarr definitely had his fingers in a lot of pies - he was also trying to locate an evil chalice for a supervisor. I don't think it's out of hand at all for Qarr to have one and helped free Z, even without knowing why at the time. He's an underling, his is not to reason why. Being the one to snare V got him his big break.

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## Mike Havran

> They do make for interesting speculation, however, about whether the IFCC actually already knew about the gates *before* Sabine ran off to tell them. I'm personally of the opinion that they did, and had things in motion long before hand, and Sabine's actions really only served to put her more directly in their service (as V's deal did for Qarr). From a story telling point of view, those things served to allow us, the readers, to learn about the IFCC via interaction with other characters who had already been introduced.


The IFCC explicitly say they became aware of Vaarsuvius from Sabine, and since that was the moment Sabine went to tell them about the Gates, I consider the option that they heard about them for the first time to be the most likely. Also, Cedric's wording from the next panel suggests Qarr was not working for the IFCC before (at least not openly)

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## Fyraltari

> They do make for interesting speculation, however, about whether the IFCC actually already knew about the gates *before* Sabine ran off to tell them. I'm personally of the opinion that they did, and had things in motion long before hand, and Sabine's actions really only served to put her more directly in their service (as V's deal did for Qarr). From a story telling point of view, those things served to allow us, the readers, to learn about the IFCC via interaction with other characters who had already been introduced.


Sabine already worked directly under the Directors for a long time, they ordered her to foster Nale's potential and to keep an eye out for anything interesting while she was at it. She talks about them like she's known them for a long time too.

While the Directors are all about the long term, I don't think they have a grand plan _per se_. Their true goal is too unite the forces of Evil to defeat Good. They seem to have decided that the destruction of the world would serve their interests well and are currently working to that end, but I don't think they've been planning to destroy the Gate specifically for a long time.

I get the impression that they are opportunists, they identify individuals and situation of interest and try to nudge them in the direction that serves them the most. If it works out, great! If the risks start to outweigh the reward? They'll pull out and try something else, someplace else, sometime else. Where's the hurry? They themselves admit that their gambit with Vaarsuvius was longshot. I figure this kind of behaviour is the way to get ahead in the Lower Planes, coming up with intricate century-spanning schemes is for fools who forget unknown unknowns exist.

I see no reason not to believe them when they say that Qarr wasn't working for the IFCC before he met them, the Directors are only one archfiend each out of the many each plane contain.

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## Mike Havran

Also, had the IFCC known about the Gates before Azure City conquest, they would have _probably_ endorsed Kubota's soul-selling applications in order to get some leverage around the gate.

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## Riftwolf

Headcanon that fits what I know;
Qarr had a number of third-stringers on his books who he split his time between. The IFCC hired Qarr because of his previous connection to Zzt'dri. Qarr didn't recognize Z from the picture because he was crossed out (suggesting he was dead) and Qarr knew Z was alive. I don't know if Z met Qarr before or after his haircut. That'd explain his nonrecognition better.




> Also, had the IFCC known about the Gates before Azure City conquest, they would have _probably_ endorsed Kubota's soul-selling applications in order to get some leverage around the gate.


To paraphrase Max Devlin and the Devil, "why would we pay for something we're going to get anyway?"

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## brian 333

Kubota was an active agent of conflict and disruption who opposed the (possibly) single greatest bastion of Good in Ootsworld. Of course the IFCC was interested in him.

Zzidtri was an accessory to Nale, and so again, they were interested. Perhaps Quarr was a peg or two down the heirsrchy from the Directors, but it is not hard to see that he was available to rescue Z.

Quarr went after Vaarsuvius on his own intiative to salvage what he could from Therkla's fiasco, and hauled in a prize The Directors couldn't resist. What got a prestige bump as a result.

Happenstance? Plot contrivance? Only The Giant knows.

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## gbaji

> Qarr definitely had his fingers in a lot of pies - he was also trying to locate an evil chalice for a supervisor. I don't think it's out of hand at all for Qarr to have one and helped free Z, even without knowing why at the time. He's an underling, his is not to reason why. Being the one to snare V got him his big break.


Yup. Interesting side bit (which might answer the question of whether Qarr was working for the IFCC all along without knowing it). What do you suppose the odds are that the chalice Qarr was looking for is the "artifact" that the IFCC now have. Could be as easy as the three of them passing the word down through their various underlings to find said chalice (with some reward offered, which may be why Qarr's immediate supervisor was so desperate to find it). Could be nothing. Could be something. I'd honestly forgotten that detail.




> Sabine already worked directly under the Directors for a long time, they ordered her to foster Nale's potential and to keep an eye out for anything interesting while she was at it. She talks about them like she's known them for a long time too.


Sure. And she still doesn't know exactly what they're up to, or what the full end goal is. I was speaking more about her direct connection to them in terms of the gates themselves. Obviously, we know she worked directly for them because that was in the flashback scene right before she ran off to tell them about the gates.

if there's one thing they seem to do well is compartmentalize their "true work". It's entirely possible that they knew all about the gates the whole time, had a number of creatures working for them on their plans, some of them through layers of management (like Qarr), and some of them directly (like Sabine), but none of them knew what was really going on. Once Sabine told them about the gates, they were free to provide her more direct instructions relating to the gates themselves, whereas before it may have been more vague stuff.

Dunno. I'm not married to the theory or anything, but I do find it more interesting in a "OMG. They had a grand plan all along" kind of reveal of the evil plot than a more simple "we just stumbled upon this and decided to meddle" would be.

And yeah, it puts the potential for Qarr to have been an active (but unknowing) minion in all of this the whole time into greater focus. Sure, it could just be that they have minions all over the place, working various mortals for their souls or whatever, and we just only see those that intersect with the main story (certain of that, in fact). But the actions do fit if they'd known about the gates and wanted them destroyed for some larger purpose all along. Having Qarr work with Kubuto and possibly influence him in opposing Shojo and Hinjo works if one's goal is to weaken Azure city so that the gate there can be destroyed. Also explains why they would not respond to Kubuto's requests for more direct aid. They want him to weaken Azure City, not take it over for himself.

Dunno. We could even look at the fact that they sent Sabine to Nale in the first place as part of this larger plan (or again, just opportunistic randomness). They just happen to send her to him, and just happens to result in him on a quest to find the amulet, which just happens to be in the same dungeon where the gate is, where Xykon happens to be trying to bypass the wards to get to the gate? That's a... remarkable coincidence. To be honest, this whole thing was a bit of contrivance to set up the whole "good person can open the ward on the gate" bit, but it's also exactly the sort of thing that I would capitalize on later as a writer if I were building a bigger and more complex set of players for a world/story I was writing. You introduce a set of new big bad guys, and if you can find a way to squeeze them in to having been behind some past events in the story, you do so. Dunno. Conservation of story, I guess?




> I see no reason not to believe them when they say that Qarr wasn't working for the IFCC before he met them, the Directors are only one archfiend each out of the many each plane contain.


Well. There's working for them individually (recall Sabine worked directly for Lee), and working for "the IFCC". I may have missed it, but I don't recall Qarr ever saying anything like "I don't work for any of you", nor needing to check with his current supervisor when told to settle into his "new office". I also don't recall any of them saying that he wasn't working for them previously. If they were poaching someone else's minion, we can assume maybe some sort of mention of that (maybe, maybe not?). I don't know anything about the hierarchy of the lower planes, but that suggests to me that they are at, or very near to the top of their respective planar hierarchies, and thus can do things like order most lower level creatures around, or give them higher positions, offices, etc, pretty much at their whim.

Which again, also implies that they could order mid level minions to do broader things like "go assign someone to work with that Azure city noble", or "go find that chalice", or "let us know if you run into something that tips the cosmic balance in our favor", without any of those minions having any clue as to what they are really doing. I may just be using a much more lose definition of "working for someone" here.

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## ZhonLord

> Well. There's working for them individually (recall Sabine worked directly for Lee), and working for "the IFCC". I may have missed it, but I don't recall Qarr ever saying anything like "I don't work for any of you", nor needing to check with his current supervisor when told to settle into his "new office". I also don't recall any of them saying that he wasn't working for them previously. If they were poaching someone else's minion, we can assume maybe some sort of mention of that (maybe, maybe not?). I don't know anything about the hierarchy of the lower planes, but that suggests to me that they are at, or very near to the top of their respective planar hierarchies, and thus can do things like order most lower level creatures around, or give them higher positions, offices, etc, pretty much at their whim.


This does happen actually. The IFCC got special permission to step in on the Faustian bargain in place of Quarr's regular supervisors.  So they're a step up from his actual boss(es), and pulled him up the ladder into their organization as a result of him setting the stage for Varsuvius to make that ill-advised bargain.

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## Fyraltari

> Sure. And she still doesn't know exactly what they're up to, or what the full end goal is. I was speaking more about her direct connection to them in terms of the gates themselves.


That's not a meaning of the word "direct", I was aware of.




> if there's one thing they seem to do well is compartmentalize their "true work". It's entirely possible that they knew all about the gates the whole time, had a number of creatures working for them on their plans, some of them through layers of management (like Qarr), and some of them directly (like Sabine), but none of them knew what was really going on. Once Sabine told them about the gates, they were free to provide her more direct instructions relating to the gates themselves, whereas before it may have been more vague stuff.
> 
> Dunno. I'm not married to the theory or anything, but I do find it more interesting in a "OMG. They had a grand plan all along" kind of reveal of the evil plot than a more simple "we just stumbled upon this and decided to meddle" would be.


The problem with "grand plans" is that they have to make sense. If the Directors have been pulling everybody's strings this entire time, that requires them guessing the actions of dozens of people to an incredibly precision. I mean, what were the odds that the Order of the Stick would kick Xykon out of the Dungeon of Dorukan without destroying him or killing Redcloak while also destroying Dorukan's Gate?

And if their "artifact" is indeed that chalice, why try to get it by sending word through layers of bureaucracy until the task lands on an incompetent imp who can only try meekly to get some mid-level wizard to go get it for him in exchange for some random tips on evil spells instead of sending someone like Sabine to do it directly, like they eventually do? 




> And yeah, it puts the potential for Qarr to have been an active (but unknowing) minion in all of this the whole time into greater focus.


I just don't really see the point of that. Say we got the reveal that Qarr was unwittingly serving the IFCC's interest while working with Kubot*a* and Therkla. Well, they're both dead, so who cares? As far as we can tell Kubota never got up to anything more than bull**** powerplays with rival nobles.



> Sure, it could just be that they have minions all over the place, working various mortals for their souls or whatever, and we just only see those that intersect with the main story (certain of that, in fact). But the actions do fit if they'd known about the gates and wanted them destroyed for some larger purpose all along. Having Qarr work with Kubuto and possibly influence him in opposing Shojo and Hinjo works if one's goal is to weaken Azure city so that the gate there can be destroyed. Also explains why they would not respond to Kubuto's requests for more direct aid. They want him to weaken Azure City, not take it over for himself.


Why wouldn't they want that? It'd give them easy access to a Gate.




> Dunno. We could even look at the fact that they sent Sabine to Nale in the first place as part of this larger plan (or again, just opportunistic randomness). They just happen to send her to him, and just happens to result in him on a quest to find the amulet, which just happens to be in the same dungeon where the gate is, where Xykon happens to be trying to bypass the wards to get to the gate? That's a... remarkable coincidence.


No. It's only a coincidence if they already knew about the Gates beforehand and sent her there on unrelated business. If that's how they learned about the Gates, it's just a thing that happened. Note that the Linear Guild's presence there at the same time as xykon is not a coincidence either: Xykon hired them. If Qarr wasn't working for the IFCC, then Vaarsuvius being in the vicinity of a lesser fiend just as the worst day of their life happened to them, _that_ is a coincidence. But given that there are apparently fiends waitresses in some cafés, it's not that unlikely.



> To be honest, this whole thing was a bit of contrivance to set up the whole "good person can open the ward on the gate" bit, but it's also exactly the sort of thing that I would capitalize on later as a writer if I were building a bigger and more complex set of players for a world/story I was writing. You introduce a set of new big bad guys, and if you can find a way to squeeze them in to having been behind some past events in the story, you do so. Dunno. Conservation of story, I guess?


A twist shouldn't exist for its own sake. What would this change to the story, the characters, the stakes? How does "the Directors already knew about the Gates" impact anything at all?





> Well. There's working for them individually (recall Sabine worked directly for Lee), and working for "the IFCC". I may have missed it, but I don't recall Qarr ever saying anything like "I don't work for any of you", nor needing to check with his current supervisor when told to settle into his "new office".


Why would Qarr check with his supervisor? Screw that guy, he just got promoted! They work in literal hell, you think Qarr cares if his previous boss ends up short-staffed? Archfiends just told him he reports to them directly. He's on the fast-track to the lower-downs, baby!





> Which again, also implies that they could order mid level minions to do broader things like "go assign someone to work with that Azure city noble", or "go find that chalice", or "let us know if you run into something that tips the cosmic balance in our favor", without any of those minions having any clue as to what they are really doing. I may just be using a much more lose definition of "working for someone" here.


Sure, but that doesn't mean every fiend everywhere is acting at their behest. We might as well start theorizing the planetar from HTPGHS was secretely tasked by Rooster to make sure O-Chul would Get His Scar.

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## gbaji

> The problem with "grand plans" is that they have to make sense. If the Directors have been pulling everybody's strings this entire time, that requires them guessing the actions of dozens of people to an incredibly precision. I mean, what were the odds that the Order of the Stick would kick Xykon out of the Dungeon of Dorukan without destroying him or killing Redcloak while also destroying Dorukan's Gate?


I didn't say they were "pulling everyone's strings this entire time". Just some people. And just some strings. A "grand plan" in a story helps explain why the same set of people in one faction just happen to have just the right people at just the right place for certain things to happen in a story without resorting to "they just randomly got lucky". It's far more satisfying for the reader to discover after the fact that there was a reason why group A was in location B when event C happened, which lead to <more stuff>, etc.

And what were the odds of that sequence of events happening? Vastly higher than the odds of the gate being destroyed if no one showed up to bother Xykon in the first place, right? Yes, as it happened, there was a pretty darn unpredictable sequence that actually occurred, but the IFCC has stated that they work via conflict (and some chaos, though I'm not sure how each of the three are aligned specifically in that regard). The IFCC may have known a little about the gates, and may have known a little about Xykon, but may have had no way to know about the OotS being there. Sending the Linear Guild may have actually been about using them to oppose Xykon, or even just to get some additional information about him and what he was doing. You know, put a piece on the board. It's entirely possible that they fully expected Elan and many others to be just killed by Xykon, but Sabine might have stayed on Team Evil as a spy or something. The point is that you put your pieces out there and then play with the hands that are dealt along the way (how's that for mixed metaphors?).

I could totally see them doing this. Er. Again, I'm not even remotely married to this one. Just tossing it out there as a possibility.




> And if their "artifact" is indeed that chalice, why try to get it by sending word through layers of bureaucracy until the task lands on an incompetent imp who can only try meekly to get some mid-level wizard to go get it for him in exchange for some random tips on evil spells instead of sending someone like Sabine to do it directly, like they eventually do?


First: Who said that Qarr was the only one looking? I'm pretty sure I was clear that they might have passed on that request to multiple mid level minions of their respective planes, and that in turn may have resulted in dozens or even hundreds of those folks telling their minions in turn to look for it.

Second: Nothing in their statements here should be interpreted as Sabine having recovered the artifact. The artifact is mentioned separately. Sabine is only mentioned in that she "should return with an appropriate vessel in short order". It's quite clear that "the artifact" and "the vessel" are two different things (since one of the directors literally says he had "the artifact" moved to his place, so it can't be the same thing that Sabine will "return with in short order"). So yes, it's entirely possible that a future strip may reveal said artifact, which may turn out to be a chalice, which we will then go "aha! So that's the thing Qarr was looking for way back when". Hence my speculation. Could be totally wrong. But why not have it be the same chalice previously mentioned?

It's just good story writing to do callbacks like that.




> I just don't really see the point of that. Say we got the reveal that Qarr was unwittingly serving the IFCC's interest while working with Kubot*a* and Therkla. Well, they're both dead, so who cares? As far as we can tell Kubota never got up to anything more than bull**** powerplays with rival nobles.


Because it's not about Kubuto or Therkla. It's about how they used them. Their "purpose" has already been fulfilled. Kubuto was the key noble who convinced the others to abandon Azure city on the eve of war. You don't think that was significant?




> Why wouldn't they want that? It'd give them easy access to a Gate.


They don't want access to the gate? Let's assume for the sake of argument that as high level creatures of the outer planes they can't just show up and do stuff directly on the prime material plane without following certain rules. Why grant V the soulsplice instead of just using their own powers directly, right? They have to work through others. I think that's pretty clear. What do you think Kubuto would have done with the gate if he'd just seized power for himself? Not destroy it, that's for certain.

They may very well be operating on the exact same theory that Serini is: That conflict in proximity to a gate significantly increases the odds of that gate being destroyed as a consequence, doubly so if the fight is "over the gate itself". They may very well have anticipated that the likely decision by the Saphire Guard to Xykon's imminent seizure of the tower would be to attempt to destroy the gate, right? I mean, that's exactly what O'chul was going to do, so we're not talking rocket science level prediction here.

Would that have been risky? Yes. Absolutely. But short of such a threat to the gate, nothing else would have resulted in the gates destruction. It's entirely possible that they manipulated the odds of the battle specifically to ensure that Xykon's forces would win, to maximize the odds of the gate being destroyed. Again, if we assume that they want all 5 gates destroyed (and they do appear to want that based on statements made and actions taken in the strips), then this makes a ton of sense.

It's entirely possible that they only found out about the gates just a day before its destruction, and in the 4 months or so since then have come up with a grand plan to take advantage of them somehow by destroying them (again, presumably), but that seems like a really short time period to go from having no clue something like the gates even existed, to such an "all in" set of actions regarding them. I mean, the soul splice? That was seriously costly to them, and with the sole point to have minor control over just one member of the party that is running around trying to stop Team Evil. That's some serious level action for something that "just came up recently" IMO. It's far more sensible if they were planning to destroy the gates for some time, and saw Xykon and Redcloak's actions (and later the Order's involvement) as a means to achieve it, and have since taken specific actions to put themselves into a position to manipulate all sides of the conflict to their own advantage.

It's not a certainty by any means. I'm just laying it out as a possibility.




> No. It's only a coincidence if they already knew about the Gates beforehand and sent her there on unrelated business. If that's how they learned about the Gates, it's just a thing that happened. Note that the Linear Guild's presence there at the same time as xykon is not a coincidence either: Xykon hired them.


The Linear Guild was there to get the Talisman of Durokon, completely unrelated to Xykon. Nale states this quite clearly in the same strip you just linked. Xykon didn't know that Nale was already there for another reason. Xykon presumably noticed them there, and offered them money to kill the Order, just as he'd been hiring others to do so (like Trigak). But that's not why the Linear Guild was in the dungeon in the first place. Also, Sabine says here that she was sent by the archfiends to work with Nale as his concubine and advisor. Um... Is it not possible then that Nale heard about the Talisman from her? And she heard about it from them?

Something sent them to that dungeon to get that Talisman. It would be a heck of a coincidence for it *not* to have been the same archfiends (presumably the IFCC) who sent her to work with Nale in the first place. And it would be an additional incredible coincidence that the people they have working for them (on a completely unrelated quest) just happen to stumble into a dungeon where one of the gates is, which they later pretty much drop everything and spend ridiculous amounts of effort working to destroy. We can assume sheer random coincidence in their involvement in that gate, and in Qarr and Kubuto's role in the Azure city gate, and maintain the assumption that they only learned about the gates when Sabine did (and told them). Or we can eliminate that set of coincidences by simply assuming that they already knew about them when Sabine told them, but they just didn't tell her that they already knew (but now that she knew, and knew that they knew, they could send her on missions more directly related to their objectives with regard to the gate instead of having to "hide" them in the form of "pony up to this guy and get him to form a group and go after this talisman" type things).

The latter assumption allows everything to fall into place neatly as a master plan. The former is somewhat just random chance and luck. Doesn't mean either is or has to be true, but I know which direction I'd go if I were writing the story. Let's also not forget that the IFCC is the last and final "player" outstanding for whom we still require a reveal in terms of their intent and actions. They are the "big bad at the end of the story" IMO (well, there's the snarl and the world in the rift remaining to be revealed/explained as well). Xykon and Redcloak are obstacles along the way. I suspect the big reveal to come is when we learn what their actual objectives are, and what they've been doing to achieve them. Again, it could be the very straightforward "we just found out about this a few months ago and decided to act" bit. But I think it would be far more satisfying (and frankly make more sense) if they've been secretly working towards this goal for a very very long time, and it's just that the events finally aligned just recently for them to take those plans to fruition.




> A twist shouldn't exist for its own sake. What would this change to the story, the characters, the stakes? How does "the Directors already knew about the Gates" impact anything at all?


It lends far more gravitas to their part of the story. I mean, they could just be random guys who happened to be in a particular location and learned some information and toke some actions in response, or they could be masterminds behind much of what has happened from behind the scenes all along. You want the story of Verbal Kent to just be a straight story? Or do you want the reveal of Keyser Soze, where you suddenly look back and go "OMG. They were behind that part. And that part. And this other part too. It all makes perfect sense now".

Could go any direction to be honest, and I'm also wary of stories that lean too heavily on "plot twist for the sake of plot twist" (actually hate that with a passion), but in this case, I do see a number of patterns of interactions between either folks we know were working for the IFCC or certainly could have been (even if indirectly) in 3 of the 4 gates we've seen destroyed so far. It's not a "twist without a purpose" if you simply tie those things that are already there into a coherent narrative.





> Why would Qarr check with his supervisor? Screw that guy, he just got promoted! They work in literal hell, you think Qarr cares if his previous boss ends up short-staffed? Archfiends just told him he reports to them directly. He's on the fast-track to the lower-downs, baby!


I was only pointing this out to make the additional point that the same rule of "Archfiends say go, you say go" applied to Qarr before he got the promotion. And it applied to his boss and likely his bosses bosses boss as well. So it's entirely possible that his actions with Kubuto could have been something that was ordered from "on high" by the Archfiends without him having any clue that's where his orders came from. Right? Just setting this as a possibility. They are higher up the food chain than him. A *lot* higher up. So high up that he's shocked that they're even speaking to him, much less inviting him to their pad for strategy sessions. So yeah, he would expect that orders from their level would never go to him directly, but be passed on through middle management. I'm just following that logic to a potential conclusion.




> Sure, but that doesn't mean every fiend everywhere is acting at their behest.



Sure. But certainly a fairly large number are under their direct authority (even if many levels lower in the hierarchy). And again, if we start with a speculation like "what if the IFCC knew about the gates previously and have been working to force their destruction all along", then we might look at someone like Qarr and also speculate that his orders with regard to Kubuto could have also been a part of their plan. If they did know about them previously, then they certainly would have had a hand in anything going on in proximity to one of the gates if it were at all possible. Again, one speculation leads us to the other. And they are not contradictory to anything else in the story. Just unconfirmed.

So... Possible, right?

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## Peelee

> What do you suppose the odds are that the chalice Qarr was looking for is the "artifact" that the IFCC now have.


None. Conservation of detail is overrated.  :Small Wink:

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## gbaji

> None. Conservation of detail is overrated.


Hey. I'm as big a fan of the Red Herring as the next guy. But from a story telling POV, that usually involves some effort to make the audience think one thing, only to make it not be. In this case... It's somewhat the opposite. I'd actually completely forgotten the entire bit about Qarr's stated reason for working with V back then, and certainly didn't remember anything about a chalice, until someone linked to the page in this thread.

And I guess it's just the way my mind works, that this lead to a "ding" (lightbulb) moment, followed by "Hmmm... I wonder...".

I also want to totally preface (er, postface?) this whole bit by pointing out that I'm pretty much 1 for <a lot> in terms of predicting anything in this comic strip. In the entire run of the comic, when thinking about possible things that "could be" (either in conversation with others, or just in my own head), literally the only one I've ever gotten right was that I speculated that Belkar would survive the fall from the Godsmote temple because he had purchased a feather fall item from the Gnomes due to him repeatedly being dominated and told to jump off the ship by Durkon.

So yeah. I'm not putting a ton of weight on any of this either. Just willing to throw ideas out there, and keep them in the "this could be true" bin, until something in comic completely wipes them out.

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## Fyraltari

> Hey. I'm as big a fan of the Red Herring as the next guy. But from a story telling POV, that usually involves some effort to make the audience think one thing, only to make it not be. In this case... It's somewhat the opposite. I'd actually completely forgotten the entire bit about Qarr's stated reason for working with V back then, and certainly didn't remember anything about a chalice, until someone linked to the page in this thread.


There are options besides "red herring" an "Chekov's gun". It seems to me the chalice already fulfilled its narrative role: being a reason fro Qarr to stay close to V so that he could be present when the ABD attacked so that V could be contacted by the Archfiends. In fact I'm pretty confident facilitating that meeting is the entire reason Qarr was created in the first place.

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## gbaji

> There are options besides "red herring" an "Chekov's gun". It seems to me the chalice already fulfilled its narrative role: being a reason fro Qarr to stay close to V so that he could be present when the ABD attacked so that V could be contacted by the Archfiends. In fact I'm pretty confident facilitating that meeting is the entire reason Qarr was created in the first place.


And that ring of invisibility that Bilbo found while lost in the depths of the goblin caves fulfilled its narrative purpose by allowing him to sneak into Smaug's lair (and later to hide and wait out the Battle of the Five Armies), right?

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## pearl jam

Well, yes, actually, in a way, because the extra significance of the ring was not contemplated until after "The Hobbit" was a completed published work. In the process of imagining and writing LOTR the ring gained its much greater importance and a few edits were made to the original version of the Hobbit to fix some issues of characterization and continuity with the lore as it came to be established.

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## Throknor

> Well, yes, actually, in a way, because the extra significance of the ring was not contemplated until after "The Hobbit" was a completed published work. In the process of imagining and writing LOTR the ring gained its much greater importance and a few edits were made to the original version of the Hobbit to fix some issues of characterization and continuity with the lore as it came to be established.


That reminds me a little of how after completing the Dark Tower series Stephan King went back and revised _The Gunslinger_ making it more consistent with later entries in the series.

I once read (I wish I could remember where) a quote from Asimov along the lines of "Never let continuity get in the way of the story you want to tell".  His Foundation and Robot series had numerous little inconsistencies when you dig deep into them.  But each worked as a self-contained story inside an overall framework.

If Asimov and King are too 'literary' for you the same could probably be said of Sluggy Freelance, Nodwick, or Schlock Mercenary (or probably dozens of long-running web comics with overall narratives that I haven't read).  

Sometimes lines are for atmosphere.  Sometimes they're for ideas that just don't peter out. Sometimes authors just change their mind.  And sometimes they just forget and don't really worry about it when it's pointed out.

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## Ruck

> And that ring of invisibility that Bilbo found while lost in the depths of the goblin caves fulfilled its narrative purpose by allowing him to sneak into Smaug's lair (and later to hide and wait out the Battle of the Five Armies), right?


What some other story element from some other story was or became has no bearing on this one.

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## gbaji

> Well, yes, actually, in a way, because the extra significance of the ring was not contemplated until after "The Hobbit" was a completed published work. In the process of imagining and writing LOTR the ring gained its much greater importance and a few edits were made to the original version of the Hobbit to fix some issues of characterization and continuity with the lore as it came to be established.


So you're saying that an author may introduce something into a story, have it fulfill its purpose in the narrative of that story, and then later, when writing an extension/addition to that story (another book perhaps?), and needing to have a new "thing" appear and have relevance to this new story, might just make that earlier thing be the same thing that now has new/greater relevance? You know, to tie one story in to the other?

Just checking. Let me be absolutely clear. I'm not arguing that this is the case. I'm simply pointing out the possibility. And that no, the fact that the chalice has "already fulfilled its narrative purpose" does not disqualify it as a possibility for also being "the artifact" mentioned later. Just as Bilbo's ring wasn't disqualified by Tolkien as being The One Ring due to it already having been used in a previous story. In fact, one can argue that its previous appearance was exactly *why* it appeared as the One Ring later. The basic story of LotR could have been told with *any* objects of power. Why rings?

Heck. I do this in my RPGs occasionally as well. I'll introduce some random minor thing, that appears (to the party) to be very simple, and maybe has some useful magical property that helps the party out in an adventure. Then later use it for some broader purpose. Sometimes, this is by design at the start. Sometimes, I'll just be reviewing past adventure notes looking for new ideas, and stumble upon something I handed out as minor treasure at some point, and think "Hmmm.. What if this is something more than just what it appears...". Bam! New adventure idea.





> What some other story element from some other story was or became has no bearing on this one.


Sure. I'm just pointing out that there is absolutely no rule that says that an object introduced into a story, once having fulfilled a narrative purpose, can never be used later by the same author to fill a completely different narrative purpose. Was just countering a post which argued that it couldn't be the artifact because it had "already fulfilled its narrative purpose". That's not a sufficient counter argument IMO.

Again. Absolutely none of this proves anything at all. It just doesn't disprove it either.

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## brian 333

I used to do that with recurring characters; usually the villain or a henchman of the villain, or even a random encounter, who escaped the party. The character would return later as a leveled up threat.

Rasita tried to interfere in the Seven Quests paladin campaign at least once every three levels. And Omar the Tentmaker and his family showed up at least half-a-dozen times in the Desert Campaign, usually just about the time the party needed healing and resupply.

From a world building perspective, re-use of a plot item makes a lot of sense. You only have to add a layer to existing lore, not create a whole new story.

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## AceOfFools

> This does happen actually. The IFCC got special permission to step in on the Faustian bargain in place of Quarr's regular supervisors.  So they're a step up from his actual boss(es), and pulled him up the ladder into their organization as a result of him setting the stage for Varsuvius to make that ill-advised bargain.


They also say, in 633, that V was chosen at random as the next request on the line, and that they were new, even if they assigned Sabine and Nale back when he was working for his father. That whole thing was explicitly a deception to get V to say the four words.

By far the easiest way to get special permission to intervene with someones subordinate us to be higher up the good chain and give that someone an order. Qarr may have stumbled upon something, if he sends you information about an elfs soul, foreword it to us.

Id assume the order to free Z followed Sabines reporting back. Its possible it wasnt even an IFCC action. We know Sabine had liaisons with 4 people, and Qarrs supervisor could be talked into sending Vs request the IFCCs wayweather or not they worked for the IFCC directly.

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## Manga Shoggoth

> Id assume the order to free Z followed Sabines reporting back. Its possible it wasnt even an IFCC action. We know Sabine had liaisons with 4 people, and Qarrs supervisor could be talked into sending Vs request the IFCCs wayweather or not they worked for the IFCC directly.


According to your second link, Lee _is_ Quarr's supervisor.

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## gbaji

> According to your second link, Lee _is_ Quarr's supervisor.


He becomes Qarr's supervisor at that moment. Prior to that (in the first link), according to Qarr, they are "not my(his) regular supervisors". He doesn't know who they are when they meet then. Given later dialogue, we might (probably can) assume that the directors were lying about some parts of their spiel to V, but we can probably assume Qarr's reactions are honest. He doesn't know who they are. They aren't his supervisors, and he doesn't know what their plans are at that time.




> By far the easiest way to get special permission to intervene with someones subordinate us to be higher up the good chain and give that someone an order. Qarr may have stumbled upon something, if he sends you information about an elfs soul, foreword it to us.


This is my assumption as well. The directors are, well, directors. That suggests being pretty high up the food chain. Qarr is an Imp, pretty low level in the hierarchy. So one might assume his supervisor is also someone  mid-level at best. Certainly lower ranked than the IFCC. So they presumably do have the authority/power to just take Qarr for their own purposes if they want to.




> Id assume the order to free Z followed Sabines reporting back. Its possible it wasnt even an IFCC action. We know Sabine had liaisons with 4 people, and Qarrs supervisor could be talked into sending Vs request the IFCCs wayweather or not they worked for the IFCC directly.


Yeah. I think the timing works out just fine. The only sticking point was the above, where if we do assume Qarr's reactions are honest ones (and there's no reason not to), then it raises questions regarding Z's release. For the timing to work, we have to assume either that the Imp that freed Z was not Qarr *or* that it was Qarr, but he didn't know who ordered it or why he was asked to do it. If we assume the former, then the speculation chain is complete, so no further is needed. To examine the latter case, I speculated that whichever director is in Qarr's specific reporting chain ordered Qarr's supervisor to order Qarr to do it (or, well, "someone" who just happened to be Qarr), without Qarr ever knowing who ultimately gave the order. I somewhat get the impression that the IFCC deliberately keep a low profile and use their positions to get others to do  most of their work without it being tied directly to them. So that fits with "they used a middleman" speculation.

Seems to me that if you have the authority to take some supervisor's minion from them (seemingly on a whim) to work directly for you, then you probably have the authority to order that supervisor to tell their minion to do something you want them to do as well. And yeah, they could also have been behind whatever lead Qarr to stick around and keep tabs on V as well (although that could also have just been Qarr's own initiative, which may very well have been what impressed the IFCC enough to promote him).

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## Gurgeh

Lee was supervising Sabine, not Qarr. Once Qarr is on board it's not clear which of the directors he's directly reporting to (or if he even has a direct one-on-one relationship instead of simply working for the three directors as a collective).

For what it's worth, Lee is the director who talks the _least_ business with Qarr in that comic; Cedrik extends the initial invitation and Nero is the one who takes the lead with exposition and talks about working arrangements.

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## Manga Shoggoth

> He becomes Qarr's supervisor at that moment. Prior to that (in the first link), according to Qarr, they are "not my(his) regular supervisors". He doesn't know who they are when they meet then. Given later dialogue, we might (probably can) assume that the directors were lying about some parts of their spiel to V, but we can probably assume Qarr's reactions are honest. He doesn't know who they are. They aren't his supervisors, and he doesn't know what their plans are at that time.


Yup - misread it. Lee was indeed Sabine's supervisor, not Quarr's.

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