# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  Sorceror archetypes without 10 extra spells

## Boci

So let's cut to the chase. Sorcerer's spells known has long been a mechanical* limitation of the class, and I haven't been keeping up with all knew releases, but I know  there are 2 archetypes that grant 10 bonus spells, and lunar sorcerer technically kind gives 15, but only 5 at once. This is a pretty substantial bonus, comparing to 0 (wildmagic, phoenix, storm), 1 (dragon (effectivly mage armour+), shadow, divine), or at most 3 (giant). Its hard to quantify this impact easily, you could look at 15 spells a sorcerer gains over their full level career, but that bonus spells cap out at 5, (related: its also a simplification that divine only gives 1 bonus spell, since it also broadens the spell list available past 5 level spells, though give any more known here). On the other hand, this assumes the game will last 20th level, most do not. If the game ends at 12 then the bonus spell known from aberrant or clockwork soul is an even bigger boost.

  So, are the other abilities granted by the two 10 bonus spell archetype (and lunar souled too) significantly weaker than others to compensate for? It doesn't feel like it, they seem pretty good. Equal at least, if not better. Power creep os nothing unique to the sorcerer class, but better features AND +10 bonus spells seems out of line with what other classes get. Maybe sorcerer needed this, but the problem then is two rather niche identities of a sorcerer get to enjoy this new, better standard, whilst classic concept like dragon and wild are stuck with a rather weak (in comparison) baseline.

  Now I'm not saying this ruins them. One of my favoured characters is a phoenix souled sorcerer, I don't need them to be powerful to enjoy them. A restricted spell list can contribute to character identity, But at the same time I feel like it would be nice if top tier options weren't so limited. So if you wanted to bring older archetypes in line with aberrant and clockwork soul, do you think some changes are in order, or do they already compare well enough? If older archetypes fall short, how many bonus spells should they get? The full 10, split it 50/50 and give them 5? Or for bonus points, what abilities would you give them that weren't bonus spells to bring them in line with the newer, higher standard?

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## Psyren

Lunar gives 15 all the time actually. What swapping phase does is change which schools you can apply the metamagic discount to and which free daily 1st level spell you can use.

This might seem extra powerful, but keep in mind that unlike Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul, you cant swap any of these 15 out, and they're a decidedly mixed bag - some standouts, some jank, and mostly average.

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## Leon

Not played one in this Ed but whether it gets bonus spells or not isn't really a deciding factor when Im making a character idea, the overall class/subclass theme is what matters. Have played with a Wild Mage however and they never had any issues with the limited selection they had (or if they did they never said anything to the rest of us about it)

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## animorte

> Not played one in this Ed but whether it gets bonus spells or not isn't really a deciding factor when Im making a character idea, the overall class/subclass theme is what matters.


Myself as well. I realize that additional spells are a strong factor for some, especially considering optimization (or meta-gamers), but its almost never been a deciding factor for my determining subclass, unless there are different spell lists to choose from (Genie Warlock).

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

I played a Red Dragon sorc and never really felt underpowered to level 11, but I suppose if we played that campaign longer I might have liked a bit more variety.  I was of the opinion then, and still am now, that the number of Metamagics was more of an issue, and to a lesser extent sorcery points.  Those are what make you unique and allow you to alter a spell in ways others can't.  I never really liked the 'fix' of the newer subclasses, but the feat tax of metamagic adept came closer to the mark.

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## Boci

> Lunar gives 15 all the time actually. What swapping phase does is change which schools you can apply the metamagic discount to and which free daily 1st level spell you can use.
> 
> This might seem extra powerful, but keep in mind that unlike Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul, you cant swap any of these 15 out, and they're a decidedly mixed bag - some standouts, some jank, and mostly average.


  Ah okay. Eh, 10 good spells, 15 mixed back, call it even.




> Not played one in this Ed but whether it gets bonus spells or not isn't really a deciding factor when Im making a character idea, the overall class/subclass theme is what matters. Have played with a Wild Mage however and they never had any issues with the limited selection they had (or if they did they never said anything to the rest of us about it)





> I played a Red Dragon sorc and never really felt underpowered to level 11, but I suppose if we played that campaign longer I might have liked a bit more variety.


  My experience with this was DMing for a sorceror level 6-9 or 10. I don't know if they felt underpowered, but they definitely felt frustrated with the limited spell selection. There were some cool options they wanted to use that they just didn't feel they could take because they were too situational, like calm emotion of hold person. Even polymorph they weren't entirely comfortable taking, though they did in the end, since its completely negated by a successful save, and shapechangers just flat out ignore it.

  As for my pheonix sorceror, I really like her, but yeah, she is limited. And that can be an important aspect of a character, like here, I enjoy the fact that she would struggle against a fire immune opponent. But that's not going to aid every character concept. And you can play a sorceror with bonus spells, it just has to be a niche concept. Want to play a clockwork sorceror, a basically entirely new take on the class's identity with little to know fantasy to draw from? Here 50% bonus spells known allowance. Want to play a draconic sorcerer, the iconic identity of the class? Sorry, take 1 and be happy.




> I was of the opinion then, and still am now, that the number of Metamagics was more of an issue, and to a lesser extent sorcery points.  Those are what make you unique and allow you to alter a spell in ways others can't.  I never really liked the 'fix' of the newer subclasses, but the feat tax of metamagic adept came closer to the mark.


  That's an interesting idea. Maybe old sorcerer archetpyes could be buffed by getting extra metamagics instead of spells known?

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## yisopo

> Maybe old sorcerer archetpyes could be buffed by getting extra metamagics instead of spells known?


This.   :-)

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## Segev

I've said it before, but the big problem with the sorcerer in execution is that the metamagics just don't do enough to let them be the "master of their limited number of spells." Metamagics are ultimately generic and shallow. Somewhat for balance purposes, and a lot for ease-of-use purposes.

The bonus spell lists do a lot to recapture the flavor that the sharply limited list was meant to, I think: the "fire sorcerer" now has a bunch of fire spells, the "alienist sorcerer" now has the eldritch and mind-whammy spells to represent his far realms exposure/bloodline, etc. 

The shadow sorcerer has a step in the right direction with its first level feature: it can do something unique with the _darkness_ spell. Sadly, warlocks still do it better, but it's something.

Metamagics should, I think, be more generous in their number, but assigned to particular spells the sorcerer knows. Maybe with more specialized metamagics to apply to narrower kinds of spells, or even in some cases specific to particular spells. 

A very spell-specific one might be "Shapeshifting Master: When you cast _polymorph_ on yourself, you may transform into giants and monstrosities as well as beasts. By spending 1 SP, you may also transform into fey, dragons, or aberrations. By spending 2 sp, you may also transform into celestials, fiends, and elementals. For 1 additional SP, you may expand your options when using this spell on other creatures, too." (This is something  I threw together as I wrote it, so the balance may be way off, but the concept is hopefully clear in this example.)

By getting more metamagics but having to assign them to particular spells, you could give a LOT more out, and a sorcerer truly becomes a master of warping particular spells in particular ways. 

The Aberrant Mind sorcerer already sort-of does this with the sixth level feature Psionic Spells: it applies Subtle to all the spells in the subclass-granted list, just without saying it does, and only under certain circumstances (that are, admittedly, more cost-effective than normal).

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## Pooky the Imp

Thus far, I've only played a Shadow Sorcerer and I have to say that the limited spell selection really killed the experience for me. 

I was constantly having to choose between thematic/flavourful spells and ones which were more universally useful. I've been able to do this just fine with other casters but my sorcerer had absolutely no leeway and any miscalculation made for a decidedly miserable experience in combat. 

Then I look at the new sorcerers with their swathes of bonus spells, and I can only sigh at what might have been.

Even if not all the bonus spells are useful, having some extra ones like Mind Sliver, Dissonant Whispers, Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration etc. is already a huge bonus. If they're thematic, then I can spend my regular allowance on more universally useful ones. If they're useful, then I can spend my regular allowance on more thematic ones. And if they're both useful *and* thematic, then I might even be able to spend a slot or two on something more esoteric. 

Put simply, I would never play a normal (i.e. no extra spells) sorcerer again. None of the bonuses they offer even come close to making up that shortfall.


EDIT:




> Metamagics should, I think, be more generous in their number, but assigned to particular spells the sorcerer knows. Maybe with more specialized metamagics to apply to narrower kinds of spells, or even in some cases specific to particular spells. 
> 
> A very spell-specific one might be "Shapeshifting Master: When you cast _polymorph_ on yourself, you may transform into giants and monstrosities as well as beasts. By spending 1 SP, you may also transform into fey, dragons, or aberrations. By spending 2 sp, you may also transform into celestials, fiends, and elementals. For 1 additional SP, you may expand your options when using this spell on other creatures, too." (This is something  I threw together as I wrote it, so the balance may be way off, but the concept is hopefully clear in this example.)


I would agree with this, though frankly it makes me wonder whether sorcerers should really be normal casters in the first place. At the very least, the extremely rigid spells D&D uses seem antithetical to the nature of sorcerers. 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it seems like we're clumsily combining spells and metamagic to create something that should really have been its own thing in the first place.

While by no means perfect, the Mystic seemed far closer to what the sorcerer should have been.

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## Segev

> Thus far, I've only played a Shadow Sorcerer and I have to say that the limited spell selection really killed the experience for me. 
> 
> I was constantly having to choose between thematic/flavourful spells and ones which were more universally useful. I've been able to do this just fine with other casters but my sorcerer had absolutely no leeway and any miscalculation made for a decidedly miserable experience in combat. 
> 
> Then I look at the new sorcerers with their swathes of bonus spells, and I can only sigh at what might have been.
> 
> Even if not all the bonus spells are useful, having some extra ones like Mind Sliver, Dissonant Whispers, Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration etc. is already a huge bonus. If they're thematic, then I can spend my regular allowance on more universally useful ones. If they're useful, then I can spend my regular allowance on more thematic ones. And if they're both useful *and* thematic, then I might even be able to spend a slot or two on something more esoteric. 
> 
> Put simply, I would never play a normal (i.e. no extra spells) sorcerer again. None of the bonuses they offer even come close to making up that shortfall.


Indeed, I believe the original design - with no bonus spells and only 15 spells known, total, ever - was exactly backwards from how they should have done it. I am sure their intent was, "By having only a limited number of spells, they'll have only the thematic ones, and have to cleverly use metamagic to show how skilled they are with their thematically-appropriate spells." But the practice of it is that this actively discourages thematic choices in favor of the most versatile and effective choices. Especially when metamagic is so general that it is most effective when used in conjunction with more versatile and generally-applicable spells. 

5e sorcerers were poorly designed at the start. The subclasses that have thematic bonus spell lists are a big step in the right direction towards fixing their design.

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## hiptobecubic

I always felt like sorcerers needed more uniqueness to them. They really just feel like feral wizards, which is mostly worse than being a normal wizard. I agree with the sentiment that Mystic was a better take than "wizards, but stupid and emotional," which is how I feel today. Clockwork Soul makes it even more clear that it's a bad concept, because they don't even have the raw emotional feel.

Wild Magic as a class feature is not great for managing the game itself, but thematically i love it and wish the list of effects was several times larger than it is.

The sorc spell list probably should have been almost entirely unique to the class, given that these spells sprouted naturally. It doesn't make sense to me that a dragon woman erupting with fire magic casts spells that you can also just learn from a book. Metamagic helps, but it's not enough. Maybe if spells (or characters) had additional randomized properties reflecting their own journey towards magical expertise? E.g. my shadow sorc mage hand emits darkness around it that i can't suppress, or when i sneak i can be silent, but i leave an easily trail of darkness along the path i walked, etc.

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## Psyren

I think one way to make Sorcerers unique, especially if 1DnD goes through with making them prepared casters:

Give them the fewest number of baseline preparations and slots. They should unlock new spell levels at the same times as they do now, but have the lowest base ammunition per day of the full casters.Let their Origin Spells always count as prepared, so they can use their "floating" preparations for utility and other things.*Crank up* their sorcery points - double or even triple what they have now.

Basically the expected play style would be for them to constantly be converting sorcerpy points into more slots (and rarely but still occasionally, vice-versa) to keep up with other full casters. But they'll also have the tension of wanting to use some of their points on metamagic and subclass features too. 

They will shine in cases where a lot of preparation variety isn't needed, but their weakness will be less ability to adapt to complex circumstances or fill multiple casting roles.

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## Luccan

While I have long lamented the lack of spells known for Sorcerers, I think the reason it took so long to get real bonus spells in subclasses for them is because the design mostly worked. And as a result, you aren't likely to notice the difference in a campaign. Unless two players are playing sorcerers from the different ends of 5e.

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## Jervis

Hot take but the fact that sorcerers are known casters instead of prep casters is enough of a limiter. If anything they should have strictly more spells at their disposal than wizards since they cant change them as often

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## Psyren

> While I have long lamented the lack of spells known for Sorcerers, I think the reason it took so long to get real bonus spells in subclasses for them is because the design mostly worked. And as a result, you aren't likely to notice the difference in a campaign. Unless two players are playing sorcerers from the different ends of 5e.


I don't think we can conclude anything based on how long it took them to print sorcerers with more spells. Look how long we were stuck with PHB Ranger.




> Hot take but the fact that sorcerers are known casters instead of prep casters is enough of a limiter. If anything they should have strictly more spells at their disposal than wizards since they cant change them as often


They're getting rid of known casters in 1DD, it necessitates too much build planning when you're locked into one small set of spells for multiple sessions.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> I've said it before, but the big problem with the sorcerer in execution is that the metamagics just don't do enough to let them be the "master of their limited number of spells." Metamagics are ultimately generic and shallow. Somewhat for balance purposes, and a lot for ease-of-use purposes.
> 
> The bonus spell lists do a lot to recapture the flavor that the sharply limited list was meant to, I think: the "fire sorcerer" now has a bunch of fire spells, the "alienist sorcerer" now has the eldritch and mind-whammy spells to represent his far realms exposure/bloodline, etc. 
> 
> The shadow sorcerer has a step in the right direction with its first level feature: it can do something unique with the _darkness_ spell. Sadly, warlocks still do it better, but it's something.
> 
> Metamagics should, I think, be more generous in their number, but assigned to particular spells the sorcerer knows. Maybe with more specialized metamagics to apply to narrower kinds of spells, or even in some cases specific to particular spells. 
> 
> A very spell-specific one might be "Shapeshifting Master: When you cast _polymorph_ on yourself, you may transform into giants and monstrosities as well as beasts. By spending 1 SP, you may also transform into fey, dragons, or aberrations. By spending 2 sp, you may also transform into celestials, fiends, and elementals. For 1 additional SP, you may expand your options when using this spell on other creatures, too." (This is something  I threw together as I wrote it, so the balance may be way off, but the concept is hopefully clear in this example.)
> ...


This is more or less what I was trying to get at in my first post with more detail.  Metamagic has so much potential to broaden the application of many spells that goes unrealized because you're so pigeon holed by the number of Metamagics and, to a lesser extent, the number of Sorcery Points.  Does the feat tax of Metamagic Adept help?  I haven't seen a sorc played since this was an option, but I'd imagine it does.  I had quicken and empower to be a better blaster, so when I got Polymorph it was the same as a Wizard's Polymorph.  If I'd had Twin as well, that's a big jump in power and to a different play style.

Given this, if I had to give the older subclasses a bump I'd probably use Aberrant Mind, which effectively gets Subtle, as the model.  I'd give Dragon empower.... and so forth.

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## Jervis

> They're getting rid of known casters in 1DD, it necessitates too much build planning when you're locked into one small set of spells for multiple sessions.


Theyre likely getting rid of them but im reserving celebration for when we see the arcane caster UA. I like the change of it does happen but sorcerers have a long history of getting the short end of the stick.

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## Kane0

> So if you wanted to bring older archetypes in line with aberrant and clockwork soul, do you think some changes are in order, or do they already compare well enough? If older archetypes fall short, how many bonus spells should they get? The full 10, split it 50/50 and give them 5? Or for bonus points, what abilities would you give them that weren't bonus spells to bring them in line with the newer, higher standard?


I'd go with 5 for each subclass, old ones getting one per spell level 1-5 and new ones losing one per spell level 1-5 so they're equalized.

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## Pooky the Imp

> This is more or less what I was trying to get at in my first post with more detail.  Metamagic has so much potential to broaden the application of many spells that goes unrealized because you're so pigeon holed by the number of Metamagics and, to a lesser extent, the number of Sorcery Points.  Does the feat tax of Metamagic Adept help?  I haven't seen a sorc played since this was an option, but I'd imagine it does.  I had quicken and empower to be a better blaster, so when I got Polymorph it was the same as a Wizard's Polymorph.  If I'd had Twin as well, that's a big jump in power and to a different play style.
> 
> Given this, if I had to give the older subclasses a bump I'd probably use Aberrant Mind, which effectively gets Subtle, as the model.  I'd give Dragon empower.... and so forth.


Regarding metamagic, I think the main issue is that it really doesn't broaden the application of most spells.

Take Fireball, for example. You can mess around with a few bits of it (e.g. improving the range, increasing the DC etc.). However, you can't change how it actually works - it's always going to be a 20ft detonation. 

Imagine for a moment if metamagic let you play with a spell's area (turning it into a line, a cone, maybe even a single-target attack etc.). Suddenly, a fire sorcerer can have a great deal of flexibility with just one or two fire spells. 

Obviously this gets a good deal more complicated, as there are many different types of spell (which would need to be altered in different ways to achieve the same flexibility), but that's why I think sorcerer needs to be its own thing with its own, distinct spells.  :Small Tongue:

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## Emongnome777

I have a draconic (gold) sorcerer in my ToD campaign, now 6th level.  He took Metamagic Adept at 4th and he has a bloodwell vial (can gain back 5 SP during a short rest once per day).  That effectively 13 SP for a day with at least one short rest plus two more metamagics to pick from.

He uses his SPs quite a bit, even exchanging spell slots for more points.  I've also granted 2 bonus spells per level to match Tasha's subclasses.  Each level is one spell related to the dragon damage type and one "generic" dragon(ish) spell.  So first level is cause fear and burning hands, etc.  Due to the magic item and the bonus spells, he's stronger than normal for a sorcerer (which I wanted as I do feel like sorcerers are a little weak).

He's told me he's loving playing his sorcerer with getting to do all his metamagic tricks frequently.  I can see the fewer spells known and limited SPs / metamagic choices being a fun killer like others are suggesting.  He's no stronger than the rest of the party (eldritch knight fighter, outlander dragon rider (3rd party), and a hexblade warlock, all single-classed).

Just my experience with it, though skewed since he has more of everything than most other sorcerers.  I'd say you can give sorcerers more spells known, more metamagic choices and more SPs and they won't break the game, IMHO.

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## hiptobecubic

> Hot take but the fact that sorcerers are known casters instead of prep casters is enough of a limiter. If anything they should have strictly more spells at their disposal than wizards since they cant change them as often





> Theyre likely getting rid of them but im reserving celebration for when we see the arcane caster UA. I like the change of it does happen but sorcerers have a long history of getting the short end of the stick.


If they do this I'd like to see a good explanation for why it makes sense beyond just the metagaming of "it makes sorcs more versatile." To me, spells known vs prepared is about how cast them. Artificers need to do prep work and maintenance on their tools to use them to cast spells. Wizards need to study up on nuances they have forgotten or whatever. Sorcerers just squeeze it out of their soul, but have fewer options in the first place. I could see a longer duration maybe? Or some other mechanic like having practiced spells vs unpracticed spells, though.

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## Slipjig

Yeah... we'll see what the new template looks like, but I kind of like the "limited powerset" thing.  If you allow then to swap spells freely, their class identity bleeds pretty heavily into Wizards.

I'd also like to see Wizards get a much more restricted spell list.  I'm fine with it if they have the most spells, but I feel that Bards, Artificers, and to a lesser extent Sorcs should have at least a few spells that are unique to them.

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## sambojin

For an easy fix to it, just give all normal sorcerers 2 floating sorc spells prepared (up to the highest level of spell they could cast) per long rest, and 3 floating ones at lvl10+.

It lets you vary up your loadout a bit each day, and you can specifically slot spells in and out to match your metamagics or for different tasks and tools.

We tried it at our table and it worked great. It's not as many spells as a clockwork or aberrant, but the flexibility more than makes up for it. You don't feel limited at all, and you can really flavour your sorc to how you imagine them to be (while still upscaling pretty well as you increase in levels).

It's not OP, and feels really balanced in actual use. Plus, it's easy, and let's you try stuff out if you want.

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## TaiLiu

Having played a Wild Magic Sorcerer for a while, I think not having those 10 extra spells is fine. Obviously having a few more spells would be nice, but it doesn't feel _horribly_ restrictive, and the ability to wild surge partly makes for those missing spells.

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## Witty Username

> While I have long lamented the lack of spells known for Sorcerers, I think the reason it took so long to get real bonus spells in subclasses for them is because the design mostly worked. And as a result, you aren't likely to notice the difference in a campaign. Unless two players are playing sorcerers from the different ends of 5e.


There is some truth to that, an experienced caster player could make sorcerer without much issue. The additional spells known mostly make them more new player friendly.

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## Boci

So we've got some interesting ideas about how to balance sorcerors.

  We have the quick and dirty fix of 5-10 extra spells for all. Maybe 5 and also cut clock work and ab, but I don't think nerfing the existing ones is necessary, they aren't OP, and they seem fun, and people who prefer prior archetypes get some bonus spells, everyone is happy.

  We have an interesting idea to give them almost eldritch invocation like abilities to modifier a spell in a special, unique way. I do like this, but the work and effort involved is not inconsiderable, plus there extra options for the player then piloting it. Probably 1 spell from each level, so 9 in total (assuming they never trade away the lower level custome spells) across all 20 levels should be fine. It can make it hard to design a character, since a DM can't show this in advance for every spell, but its pure bonus so players should be happy.

  Alternatively we can lean into metamagic angle, let me try and suggest something on the more "radical" side and we can work out way back from there:

*  "Metamagic: Sorcerers gain all metamagic options listed. Whenever they cast a spell through sorcery points (alternatively maybe limit this to only the spells provided by the archetype if we combine this with the first option) they may add X metamagic effect for free."*

  X metamagic would of course depend on the archetype. Someone mentioned empower for draconic, maybe extend for clockwork, ect ect.




> There is some truth to that, an experienced caster player could make sorcerer without much issue. The additional spells known mostly make them more new player friendly.


  Worth noting that whilst true, an experienced will only be able to make an effective character by severly limiting the effective spells. Even experienced players will still need to pass up on some of the more flavour-ful / niche spells if they want to make their sorceror perform without issue.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Regarding metamagic, I think the main issue is that it really doesn't broaden the application of most spells.
> 
> Take Fireball, for example. You can mess around with a few bits of it (e.g. improving the range, increasing the DC etc.). However, you can't change how it actually works - it's always going to be a 20ft detonation. 
> 
> Imagine for a moment if metamagic let you play with a spell's area (turning it into a line, a cone, maybe even a single-target attack etc.). Suddenly, a fire sorcerer can have a great deal of flexibility with just one or two fire spells. 
> 
> Obviously this gets a good deal more complicated, as there are many different types of spell (which would need to be altered in different ways to achieve the same flexibility), but that's why I think sorcerer needs to be its own thing with its own, distinct spells.


I'm not sure the argument that because AOE adjustment isn't a Metamagic option sorcerers don't have options to broaden the application of most spells.  I do know there is some interpretation that cone spells can have their AOEs adjusted by Distant spell, but that's contentious, so let's get back to your Fireball example.  Fireball is a good spell to look at, as it's already a very good spell that blaster types are going to take.

You can use:
Careful: not quite as good as the signature Evoker ability for fireball, but still worth it at times and applies to more spells
Distant: get more range
Empowered: a go to option that can be combined with other metamagic options and things like extra Dragon Sorc damage.
Heightened: give disadvantage
Quickened: cast as a BA, allowing you many options as an Action.  If this doesn't provide flexibility I don't know what does. 
Subtle: Debatable as there's an obvious effect once the spell is underway, but some DM's would rule no Counterspelling here.
Transmuted: This is massive in determining 'flexibility' and 'changing how a spell works'.  Pick a damage type to avoid resistance/ immunity or target vulnerability.

I don't think the 6-7 options to alter spells is limiting.  Rather, limited access to those abilities through # of Metamagics known, # of SPs known, and lack of ability to combine Metamagics are the limiting factors.  Could you homebrew a Metamagic to mess with AOE?  Sure, and it would provide another option for Sorcerers, but assuming it was balanced with other options, I'm unsure of how this fundamentally provides more flexibility than many of the current choices.

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## strangebloke

The problem with the sorcerer isn't that its weak, or that the older archetypes were boring...

The problem is that because they had a huge, fantastic spell list, but could only take a small number of those spells, they were incredibly constrained and ended up being relatively samey when compared with other casters.

You take mage armor, you take shield, you take absorb elements, you take counterspell.... and next thing you know you've used over _half_ of your spells known.

and with many of the metamagic options being incredibly niche in utility, or not viable until high level, there's even more pressure to play in a certain way. You're really pushed toward twin spell and single target concentration spells like polymorph or banishment. Even the good metamagics only really work best with a few spells. The number of spells that subtle makes impossible to counterspell is smaller than most people think - subtle doesn't get rid of material components. Careful isn't good with a lot of AOE spells. It's good with hypnotic pattern, sure, but that's one spell. Extend spell is basically pointless outside of a few spells like aid and mage armor.

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## Witty Username

Yeah, the sorcerer spells known is a average 2 per spell level until level 11 where it starts dropping to about 1.5 per spell level.

That is very tight if you want to both be effective, and be on brand.

For reference, ranger gets 4 less total spells known than sorcerer by level 20.

People have been able to work with those restrictions, but like mentioned, it takes an experienced caster player to do that.
Or a Paladin multiclass...

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## animorte

> The problem with the sorcerer isn't that its weak, or that the older archetypes were boring...
> 
> The problem is that because they had a huge, fantastic spell list, but could only take a small number of those spells, they were incredibly constrained and ended up being relatively samey when compared with other casters.
> 
> You take mage armor, you take shield, you take absorb elements, you take counterspell.... and next thing you know you've used over _half_ of your spells known.
> 
> and with many of the metamagic options being incredibly niche in utility, or not viable until high level, there's even more pressure to play in a certain way. You're really pushed toward twin spell and single target concentration spells like polymorph or banishment. Even the good metamagics only really work best with a few spells. The number of spells that subtle makes impossible to counterspell is smaller than most people think - subtle doesn't get rid of material components. Careful isn't good with a lot of AOE spells. It's good with hypnotic pattern, sure, but that's one spell. Extend spell is basically pointless outside of a few spells like aid and mage armor.


Your thoughts on the Sorcerer are similar to my thoughts on just about every class, if were being honest.

Every single time somebody is talking about an optimal build on the forum, most typically end up going in the same direction unless the OP specifies different.

Most every <insert class> is expected to use <insert spells> or <insert feat> at the proper levels if you want to be optimal. The great thing about the game is that everybody usually has different goals and its not hard to be effective if you have the creativity and your DM has the foresight to at least attempt to be inclusive.

Yes, I know you cant always rely on that, but if you _can never_ rely on it, thats an entirely different problem in itself that the game will never be able to solve. What Im getting at here is that I know some people tend to approach their build paths with, what is going to always be efficient no matter happens? Thats fine, but it doesnt ruin the class for other people.

I happen to really like playing a Sorcerer and Ive played a few. They werent all limited to the same stuff because having fun is equally as important as being relevant (for some people, these two must always co-exist).

----------


## Pooky the Imp

> I'm not sure the argument that because AOE adjustment isn't a Metamagic option sorcerers don't have options to broaden the application of most spells.  I do know there is some interpretation that cone spells can have their AOEs adjusted by Distant spell, but that's contentious, so let's get back to your Fireball example.  Fireball is a good spell to look at, as it's already a very good spell that blaster types are going to take.
> 
> You can use:
> Careful: not quite as good as the signature Evoker ability for fireball, but still worth it at times and applies to more spells [You're still producing a burst of flame. You're not even protecting allies inside it - just scorching them a little less than enemies.]
> Distant: get more range [You're still producing a burst of flame at that range.]
> Empowered: a go to option that can be combined with other metamagic options and things like extra Dragon Sorc damage. [You're still producing a burst of flame. It just does slightly more damage.]
> Heightened: give disadvantage [You're still producing a burst of flame. It's just more likely to inflict more damage.]
> Quickened: cast as a BA, allowing you many options as an Action.  If this doesn't provide flexibility I don't know what does. [You're still producing a burst of flame. You haven't altered the spell one iota, save that you can do something else before or afterwards.]
> Subtle: Debatable as there's an obvious effect once the spell is underway, but some DM's would rule no Counterspelling here. [While Fireball probably isn't a good example, I'll agree that this one does at least give you more flexibility with other spells in social situations.]
> ...


My responses in Red.

The problem is that of the 7 metamagics you list, only 1 of them makes a meaningful change to how the spell actually works. The rest of them fiddle around with damage, saving throws, timing etc. but the fact is that with all of them you're still producing a burst of flame. Only Transmuted actually lets you mix things up by producing a burst of frost, lightning or whatever. Though even that seems almost the opposite of how metamagic (and sorcerers in general) should work.

----------


## Boci

> My responses in Red.
> 
> The problem is that of the 7 metamagics you list, only 1 of them makes a meaningful change to how the spell actually works. The rest of them fiddle around with damage, saving throws, timing etc. but the fact is that with all of them you're still producing a burst of flame. Only Transmuted actually lets you mix things up by producing a burst of frost, lightning or whatever. Though even that seems almost the opposite of how metamagic (and sorcerers in general) should work.


  So you'd like to see options like:

  Explosive - Anyone damage by the spell is also moved 5 or 10ft away from the origin of the spell

  Sculpt - Change fireball into a wall that last for 1 minute and deal half damage to those who start their turn in it or pass through it

  Ectoplasmic - Anyone who fails their save against a spell that deals acid, cold, fire, force, poison, lightning or thunder damage is also restrained for 1 round by lingering sticky strands of energy made matter

----------


## Segev

> My responses in Red.
> 
> The problem is that of the 7 metamagics you list, only 1 of them makes a meaningful change to how the spell actually works. The rest of them fiddle around with damage, saving throws, timing etc. but the fact is that with all of them you're still producing a burst of flame. Only Transmuted actually lets you mix things up by producing a burst of frost, lightning or whatever. Though even that seems almost the opposite of how metamagic (and sorcerers in general) should work.


To be fair, your criticisms take mostly the form of, "You're still producing a burst of flame," and while I generally agree with what I perceive to be where your true critiques lie, this would mean that you have to somehow NOT "produce a burst of flame" to make the metamagic "worthwhile" on _fireball_. This would, for instance, mean that even an improved Careful that protected your allies completely was "still producing a burst of flame," and that something that allowed you to send the bead around corners was still "producing a burst of flame," or that something that let you turn it into a line or cone of equal volume was still "producing a burst of flame." And while I suspect you're on board with me here, I won't presume to speak for you, but I, personally, would find such things to be desirable.

Things like the bead going around a corner would require either a general metamagic for redirecting the line of effect of a spell, or a unique metamagic for _fireball_, admittedly, which would mean there needs to be some sort of workshop for customizing metamagics to specific spells. This is a lot of work for one class, but probably worthwhile. You could make it a little easier by having some highly-iconic spells have unique metamagics and then tell DMs that "similar" modifications to other specific spells would be suitable metamagic effects for sorcerers specializing in those spells to have.

----------


## Coeruleum

5e seems to be mostly designed for pickup games. That being said, I don't think the extra spells are what really makes Clockwork Soul and Aberrant Mind, I think it's the features. Aberrant Mind is the closest thing 5e has to a full psionic class, and Clockwork Soul can more or less completely take out the randomness while also being pretty tough if you want. The new sorcerers are just straight-up better than wizards in my opinion, because wizards don't actually prepare individual spells, they just choose which spells they're going to use that day, which is pretty much the same every day, warlocks, bards, and people with feats can do better with the ritual aspects and wizards can't even do the "god-wizard" role as well as sorcerers can since they can't twin that haste. I honestly don't know why anyone in 5e plays anything besides a sorcerer, warlock, or bard other than for dips since those three classes blow the others out of the water even without people being a min-max munchkin. Oh, you want to be a nature-themed character? Just pick your spells or warlock invocations and maybe your subclasses around that, don't even bother with playing a ranger or even a druid unless you're starting at level 18 and you pick Circle of the Moon. Don't play a wizard, play a sorcerer with ritual caster, a bard, or Pact of the Tome warlock. Even if you do want the "god wizard" style, metamagic on a clockwork soul or divine soul sorcerer will be your best friend compared to the real wizard who can only Haste one person at a time, doesn't have Quicken or Subtle at all, and knows several less utility spells than you do. Charisma is basically the only stat that really matters, even if you're trying to make a character whose thing isn't really being attractive. This is probably why they're working on 6e, to be honest, because it seems to be kind of absurd that any concept you could want to make will be better as a sorcerer, warlock, or bard with maybe a couple of levels in paladin or something.

----------


## Segev

> 5e seems to be mostly designed for pickup games.


That's a bold claim. I don't see it, especially given the modules WotC has put out. Can you explain your reasoning, please?

----------


## animorte

> -snip-


I absolutely love this whole pile of Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock are the best! Thats certainly how Ive always played when determining my PCs.

I dont actually _feel_ that way just because I still understand the potential of other classes as well. Overall, somebody else who prefers something else can have their approach, Ill keep mine. As long as youre having fun (preferably not at the expense of others).

----------


## Pooky the Imp

> So you'd like to see options like:
> 
>   Explosive - Anyone damage by the spell is also moved 5 or 10ft away from the origin of the spell
> 
>   Sculpt - Change fireball into a wall that last for 1 minute and deal half damage to those who start their turn in it or pass through it
> 
>   Ectoplasmic - Anyone who fails their save against a spell that deals acid, cold, fire, force, poison, lightning or thunder damage is also restrained for 1 round by lingering sticky strands of energy made matter


To be honest, only the second one really fits the bill for what I'm looking for. 

Don't get me wrong - the other two are certainly interesting effects but neither of them seem to fit what metamagic is (allegedly) supposed to do for sorcerers.

(I'll explain this in more detail below, since it relates to Segev's points as well.)





> To be fair, your criticisms take mostly the form of, "You're still producing a burst of flame," and while I generally agree with what I perceive to be where your true critiques lie, this would mean that you have to somehow NOT "produce a burst of flame" to make the metamagic "worthwhile" on _fireball_. This would, for instance, mean that even an improved Careful that protected your allies completely was "still producing a burst of flame," and that something that allowed you to send the bead around corners was still "producing a burst of flame," or that something that let you turn it into a line or cone of equal volume was still "producing a burst of flame." And while I suspect you're on board with me here, I won't presume to speak for you, but I, personally, would find such things to be desirable.


Just to clarify - I would disagree with you on the underlined point. You would no longer be producing a burst of flame but a cone of flame or a line of flame, respectively. As stated earlier, that is exactly the sort of modification I would be looking for when it comes to metamagic. 

Again, I'm not saying the other effects (like being able to shoot AoE spells around corners) aren't useful, just that they're not what I'm looking for when it comes to metamagic.

However, it seems I haven't explained myself particularly well so let me try again:

What I hear constantly is that sorcerers have few spell slots but that they get metamagic to give them the flexibility they would otherwise lack. 

Okay.

My issue is that this is not what metamagic actually does. Because, barring maybe 1 option, metamagic is not at all about flexibility but instead about _specialisation_. As in, a blaster-Sorcerer will know fewer spells than a wizard but his individual spells will do more damage (or, in your example, be able to shoot around corners), at least as long as he has spell points.

This is not necessarily bad in and of itself - my point is that it is not flexibility and shouldn't be treated as such.

My point is, if metamagic is meant to make sorcerers flexible, then the core premise should be around manipulating a given spell to ape alternative spells. 

I'm going to continue using the example of damage spells, as they make for the easiest direct comparisons. 

Take a sorcerer with the aforementioned Fireball spell. It's a perfectly fine spell, but a caster like a Wizard who wants to focus on blasting can afford to know many other spells like Lightning Bolt, Cone of Cold etc.

However, if the sorcerer can change the shape of his spell to a line or a cone, then he can _partially_ ape those spells by mimicking the desired area. The upside is that he only needs one spell. The downside is that he can't change the element (so if he's up against fire-resistant foes, he might be in trouble), and also that he doesn't gain any other riders for the spells. 

I'll grant that Transmute also allows sorcerers to partially ape spells (just swapping out elements instead of AoEs), though it seems far weaker from a flavour standpoint. I would expect sorcerers to be more limited in particular disciplines, but then have a great deal of flexibility within those disciplines. So a fire sorcerer would be able to do a lot with just a couple of fire spells but (due to limited spell selection) would still be limited in what _other_ sorts of spells they could wield.  

Does that make sense?

I should note, too, that I don't actually believe metamagic is a good way to accomplish this. Instead, as I've noted before, I would far rather see the sorcerer completely reworked into something like the Mystic - where you pick a few Disciplines to specialise in and gain a selection of spells/spell-like effects based on those disciplines. 





> Things like the bead going around a corner would require either a general metamagic for redirecting the line of effect of a spell, or a unique metamagic for _fireball_, admittedly, which would mean there needs to be some sort of workshop for customizing metamagics to specific spells. This is a lot of work for one class, but probably worthwhile. You could make it a little easier by having some highly-iconic spells have unique metamagics and then tell DMs that "similar" modifications to other specific spells would be suitable metamagic effects for sorcerers specializing in those spells to have.


To be honest, my issue with the current metamagic system is that I don't think it should be core to the sorcerer. It has always felt more like a Wizard ability. If nothing else, I think it eats up far too much design space and (as above) doesn't add the flexibility it was supposed to.

I would far rather see Metamagic be put into a subclass for the Sorcerer or Wizard.

----------


## animorte

> To be fair, your criticisms take mostly the form of, "You're still producing a burst of flame," and while I generally agree with what I perceive to be where your true critiques lie, this would mean that you have to somehow NOT "produce a burst of flame" to make the metamagic "worthwhile" on _fireball_.


This is exactly what I was seeing as well. It looks counter-productive as removing the burst of flame removes the point of it being a fireball in the first place. There _are_ other spells

I would like to think the point is more on this note: Well, I dont remember where I left the comment recently, but something along the lines that in order to better set apart sorcerers and wizards, create something akin to a combination of warlock invocations and meta-magic.




> To be honest, my issue with the current metamagic system is that I don't think it should be core to the sorcerer. It has always felt more like a Wizard ability. If nothing else, I think it eats up far too much design space and (as above) doesn't add the flexibility it was supposed to.
> 
> I would far rather see Metamagic be put into a subclass for the Sorcerer or Wizard.


So, you mean in the same way that Battlemaster Maneuvers are strictly limited to one subclass unless you take a feat for it? I very much disagree.

Ive said it before, I prefer the game being a little bit more modular so you can customize your casters better aside from just spell selection. Thats why Warlocks continue to be my favorite.

----------


## Psyren

> What I hear constantly is that sorcerers have few spell slots but that they get metamagic to give them the flexibility they would otherwise lack. 
> 
> Okay.
> 
> My issue is that this is not what metamagic actually does. Because, barring maybe 1 option, metamagic is not at all about flexibility but instead about _specialisation_. As in, a blaster-Sorcerer will know fewer spells than a wizard but his individual spells will do more damage (or, in your example, be able to shoot around corners), at least as long as he has spell points.
> 
> This is not necessarily bad in and of itself - my point is that it is not flexibility and shouldn't be treated as such.


I think the true issue you have here is less about _metamagic_ not enabling flexibility, and more about _blasting itself_ being inflexible. Yes its true that if you apply metamagic to a blast then it's still a blast, i.e. not applicable to appreciably more situations than it would be without the metamagic - but again, that's a function of blasting itself being one-note.

By contrast, there are multiple non-blasting spells whose functionality can be materially altered/expanded via metamagic. For example, if you Twin a Vortex Warp, you can use it to cause your melee powerhouse and squishy caster to swap places at a very low level without either one provoking, potentially saving both of them. Or you can Extend a Mage Armor before bed to have it running all next day without costing you a precious spell slot at low levels. Or you can Subtle or Distant Counterspell a caster to make it impossible for you to be countered in turn. These are all examples where the sorcerer's use of the listed spell will feel markedly different than anyone else, rather than just being "the same blast but slightly different."

----------


## Segev

> I think the true issue you have here is less about _metamagic_ not enabling flexibility, and more about _blasting itself_ being inflexible. Yes its true that if you apply metamagic to a blast then it's still a blast, i.e. not applicable to appreciably more situations than it would be without the metamagic - but again, that's a function of blasting itself being one-note.
> 
> By contrast, there are multiple non-blasting spells whose functionality can be materially altered/expanded via metamagic. For example, if you Twin a Vortex Warp, you can use it to cause your melee powerhouse and squishy caster to swap places at a very low level without either one provoking, potentially saving both of them. Or you can Extend a Mage Armor before bed to have it running all next day without costing you a precious spell slot at low levels. Or you can Subtle or Distant Counterspell a caster to make it impossible for you to be countered in turn. These are all examples where the sorcerer's use of the listed spell will feel markedly different than anyone else, rather than just being "the same blast but slightly different."


I like the Twin _vortex warp_ idea. That's one of the better uses for Twin Spell I've seen proposed. Part of my problem is that, aside from "subtle spell in social situtations," most of the metamagics feel very underwhelming to me. Like something you'd use primarily as an afterthought, and not something that you'd build your sorcerer's play style around.

----------


## strangebloke

> Your thoughts on the Sorcerer are similar to my thoughts on just about every class, if were being honest.
> 
> Every single time somebody is talking about an optimal build on the forum, most typically end up going in the same direction unless the OP specifies different.
> 
> Most every <insert class> is expected to use <insert spells> or <insert feat> at the proper levels if you want to be optimal. The great thing about the game is that everybody usually has different goals and its not hard to be effective if you have the creativity and your DM has the foresight to at least attempt to be inclusive.
> 
> Yes, I know you cant always rely on that, but if you _can never_ rely on it, thats an entirely different problem in itself that the game will never be able to solve. What Im getting at here is that I know some people tend to approach their build paths with, what is going to always be efficient no matter happens? Thats fine, but it doesnt ruin the class for other people.
> 
> I happen to really like playing a Sorcerer and Ive played a few. They werent all limited to the same stuff because having fun is equally as important as being relevant (for some people, these two must always co-exist).


Well I think its a bit different. 

A lot of classes have really strong subclasses that allow for more diversity. Moon druid has very different options than stars druid, for example. Swarm Keeper cheesegraters are different from Gloomstalkers are different from tanky Drakewardens. Tempest Domain spells and CD really do change how the class feels, even if in practice you're still dropping the Spirit Guardians and such. Sorcerer subclasses for contrast aren't that potent if you ignore the most recent options, which leaves spell selection and metamagic to carry all the weight, which....

As outlined, its more restrictive than you'd think. Sorcerers have huge, gaping holes in their kit and they NEED spells like mage armor to fill the gap. This is why almost all the fun sorc builds have mutliclassing. Once you shore up those key weaknesses you're liberated to do whatever else you want.

----------


## Boci

> To be honest, only the second one really fits the bill for what I'm looking for. 
> 
> Don't get me wrong - the other two are certainly interesting effects but neither of them seem to fit what metamagic is (allegedly) supposed to do for sorcerers.
> 
> (I'll explain this in more detail below, since it relates to Segev's points as well.)


  So what you want is something like this:

*Invoke Fire* (totally not Fireball)
4th level evocation (see? completely different level. For all other details, see *Fireball*)

A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes *9*d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. The fire spreads around corners. It ignites flammable objects in the area that arent being worn or carried.

*Wall* - A sorceror may spend 2 sorcery points as part of casting this spell to instead cast Wall of Fire
*Shield* - A sorceror may spend 2 sorcery points as part of casting this spell to instead cast Fire Shield

----------


## 5eNeedsDarksun

> So you'd like to see options like:
> 
>   Explosive - Anyone damage by the spell is also moved 5 or 10ft away from the origin of the spell
> 
>   Sculpt - Change fireball into a wall that last for 1 minute and deal half damage to those who start their turn in it or pass through it
> 
>   Ectoplasmic - Anyone who fails their save against a spell that deals acid, cold, fire, force, poison, lightning or thunder damage is also restrained for 1 round by lingering sticky strands of energy made matter


After re-reading your OP, I'll first add that Draconic Sorcerers sort of get 2 spells at the outset, Mage Armor and False Life(ish).  The extra hp are actually better than False Life because A) they stack with other sources of temp hp, and B) they scale with level.  I do take the point made by other posters that Shield, Absorb Elements, and Counterspell are seen as needs at some tables.  Playing a lot of published content, including the one where I had a Draconic Sorc, I can't say I found this to be the case out of the box.  I had Shield, and think I did add AE, but well into my career, as we weren't fighting much if anything with elemental damage.  We faced very few casters, and one or two others in our party had Counterspell.  

I like the idea of a metamagic that messes with AOE, as Pooky the Imp suggests.  Where I think we differ is that I'm not sure just adding this as an option fundamentally changes the equation.  You still only get 2 metamagics until level 10, so for most of your career (assuming a typical game) you still have only 2 choices, which may or may not be used in combination.  Additionally, SP are at a premium.  Without adding more Metamagics known and SP (Which arguably Metamagic Adept feat [tax]) does, not much changes.  If you really want to crank things up, then the restriction on using more Metamagics on a single spell needs to go.

Somebody upthread brought up the Hypnotic Pattern as a great spell for Subtle, and it is.  I could have taken it with my Draconic Sorc.  I had the spells to do it, but I didn't have Subtle (the limiting factor), so never bothered.

----------


## animorte

> Well I think its a bit different. 
> 
> A lot of classes have really strong subclasses that allow for more diversity. Moon druid has very different options than stars druid, for example. Swarm Keeper cheesegraters are different from Gloomstalkers are different from tanky Drakewardens. Tempest Domain spells and CD really do change how the class feels, even if in practice you're still dropping the Spirit Guardians and such. Sorcerer subclasses for contrast aren't that potent if you ignore the most recent options, which leaves spell selection and metamagic to carry all the weight, which....
> 
> As outlined, its more restrictive than you'd think. Sorcerers have huge, gaping holes in their kit and they NEED spells like mage armor to fill the gap. This is why almost all the fun sorc builds have mutliclassing. Once you shore up those key weaknesses you're liberated to do whatever else you want.


I dont care for Moon Druid so Im not going to even go there (though I do understand other peoples love for it), and then you compared it to my favorite, Stars Druid!  :Small Tongue: 

Yes, I agree plenty of the subclasses are quite a lot more defined in what theyre trying to accomplish. The PHB Sorcerer subclasses were depressing, to put it kindly. They did a lot better at branching that out eventually. One is planning to even up the number of subclasses across all classes, so thats a massive step in the right direction.

I think its also valuable to adjust my play style and plan accordingly when I dont necessarily have the tool for the job. Thats another factor worth bringing up as another way to shore up those weaknesses, instead of just trying to make the system-on-paper do it for you.

Ive played several Sorcerers, only one ever relied on Shield and I think Mage Armor was on half of them. Ive used almost all of the meta-magic options across my Sorcerers and all of them have been effective, of course in different ways.

----------


## Pooky the Imp

> I think the true issue you have here is less about _metamagic_ not enabling flexibility, and more about _blasting itself_ being inflexible. Yes its true that if you apply metamagic to a blast then it's still a blast, i.e. not applicable to appreciably more situations than it would be without the metamagic - but again, that's a function of blasting itself being one-note.


Blasting spells aren't the most inherently flexible spells, sure. But surely that's the point? If metamagic is supposed to make up for flexibility then it should be able to pull its weight even if you pick some normally inflexible spells? 

Otherwise, your spell selection is doing all the work and metamagic could (and, I would argue, should) be replaced by a feature that can do the job.  :Small Tongue: 




> By contrast, there are multiple non-blasting spells whose functionality can be materially altered/expanded via metamagic. For example, if you Twin a Vortex Warp, you can use it to cause your melee powerhouse and squishy caster to swap places at a very low level without either one provoking, potentially saving both of them. Or you can Extend a Mage Armor before bed to have it running all next day without costing you a precious spell slot at low levels. Or you can Subtle or Distant Counterspell a caster to make it impossible for you to be countered in turn. These are all examples where the sorcerer's use of the listed spell will feel markedly different than anyone else, rather than just being "the same blast but slightly different."


The Vortex one is interesting. As for Mage Armour... again, I think we heavily disagree on the definition of 'flexible'. Especially since the sorcerer has already traded most of their spells-known to be a sorcerer. So while that trick gets you an extra Lv1 slot the next day, it's not as if you'll have much of a selection of spells to cast with it. And one of them will still be stuck as Mage Amour, even if you don't need to cast it that day.

To be clear, there are some neat tricks you can pull off with Metamagic. My issue is that there are far too few of them and most of the metamagic options have no trickiness to them at all. They don't open up any new options or add flexibility, they just make a given spell _more_ in some way. 





> So what you want is something like this:
> 
> *Invoke Fire* (totally not Fireball)
> 4th level evocation (see? completely different level. For all other details, see *Fireball*)
> 
> A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes *9*d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. The fire spreads around corners. It ignites flammable objects in the area that arent being worn or carried.
> 
> *Wall* - A sorceror may spend 2 sorcery points as part of casting this spell to instead cast Wall of Fire
> *Shield* - A sorceror may spend 2 sorcery points as part of casting this spell to instead cast Fire Shield


That's a little closer to what I had in mind (damage seems extreme for a Lv4 spell but that's really a nitpick). One thing I'd question is the cost of the metamagic. e.g. if you're merely sidegradng a spell, rather than upgrading it, I'm not sure it should cost many (or even any) sorcery points. 

As I said before, though, I don't think metamagic is the best way to represent sorcerers. My 'ideal' fix would be to focus on the Mystic as the template, rather than the current sorcerer.

If I had free reign to redesign them, I'd move them to spell points and have something like this:

*Fire Discipline:*
1) You learn the Fire Bolt Cantrip.
2) You can spend 3 spell points to cast a spell that shoots a 30ft line of flame. Creatures caught in the line take 3d10 fire damage (Dexterity save for half). You can also spend additional spell points to augment this spell:
- You may spend additional spell points to increase the damage by 1d10 per spell point spent.
- You may spend 1 spell point to increase the range to 60ft.
- You may spend 1 spell point to change the line into a 30ft cone, or 2 spell points to change it into a 60ft cone.
- You may spend 1 spell point to change the line into a 20ft radius sphere, centred on yourself. You may spend 1 additional spell point to centre the sphere on a point within 60ft of you, or 2 spell points to centre it on a point within 120ft of you. 
- You may spend 1 spell point to have creatures that fail their saves against this spell catch fire (taking 1d10 damage at the start of their turns until it is extinguished).
3) You may spend 4 spell points to cast the Fire Shield spell.
4) As a Reaction, when you take fire damage, you may spend 2 spell points to give yourself Fire Resistance against that damage. If you do, for every 5pts of damage prevented, you gain an additional damage dice on the next spell cast from this Discipline. If this additional damage is not used by the end of your next turn, it is lost. 

(Note: as with the Mystic, you would be limited in how many spell points you can spend on a given spell, based on your level, so you wouldn't be able to spend 22 spell points and have it do 25d10 fire damage - just in case anyone was wondering.  :Small Wink: )

This is obviously a very rough example, just to try and get across the idea. Essentially, the idea is to lean more towards a build-a-spell concept. Metamagic wouldn't be an extra feature but would instead be built into the respective Disciplines, as above. 

There could be different Disciplines for each element (which would have different damage dice, based on the 'value/rarity' of the element), and different options for riders and AoEs. e.g. Lightning might not be able to produce a cone but can instead arc between any two creatures within range, harming anything between them. Cold could Slow affected creatures, rather than setting them on fire. etc.

I've only covered an element here but I'm sure you could do similar things with other spell-themes - e.g. one that gives you access to the various Summon X spells (with the stronger ones requiring more spell points, and perhaps other options - like spending double the spell points to summon two of the creatures, spending spell points at the start of your turn to heal/buff them etc.).

Last thing to note, just in case it isn't clear, is that Disciplines (like the above) would not be a direct replacement for spells. My sorcerers would know far fewer Disciplines than they currently know spells, but obviously each Discipline would contain a number of related spells or spell-like effects.

Phew.

I don't know if this would appeal to anyone else, but does this at least explain my idea?

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## animorte

> Phew.
> 
> I don't know if this would appeal to anyone else, but does this at least explain my idea?


I quite like this idea overall (and appreciate the time you took to explain it). I still dont think it should replace meta-magic entirely, but having a healthy balance of both is a really cool idea.

It makes me think of the Warlock, it having subclass, pact boon, and invocations.

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## Psyren

> Blasting spells aren't the most inherently flexible spells, sure. But surely that's the point? If metamagic is supposed to make up for flexibility then it should be able to pull its weight even if you pick some normally inflexible spells? 
> 
> Otherwise, your spell selection is doing all the work and metamagic could (and, I would argue, should) be replaced by a feature that can do the job.


Well in short... _no,_ a non-spell feature should not be able to make up for inflexible spell selection on a full caster. For an extreme example, if every spell you pick is a blasting spell, then no amount of metamagic (or any other ancillary feature for that matter) should be able to "bail you out." There is no substitution for decent spell selection on a full caster, nor should there be.

Metamagic should enhance the flexibility of an already flexible loadout, and in my view the current implementation does that. Once they fix the _real_ problem with sorcerer - meager spell selection that you are locked into for multiple sessions if not an entire campaign - the class will be fine.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Well in short... _no,_ a non-spell feature should not be able to make up for inflexible spell selection on a full caster. For an extreme example, if every spell you pick is a blasting spell, then no amount of metamagic (or any other ancillary feature for that matter) should be able to "bail you out." There is no substitution for decent spell selection on a full caster, nor should there be.
> 
> Metamagic should enhance the flexibility of an already flexible loadout, and in my view the current implementation does that. Once they fix the _real_ problem with sorcerer - meager spell selection that you are locked into for multiple sessions if not an entire campaign - the class will be fine.


Hmm, I'm not sure how, if you are stuck with say Quicken and Empower until level 10, (which is what I played with) a bunch more spells solves the issues.  There are a lot of good spells you could get that work well for Subtle, Twin, etc, but you don't get those Metamagics.

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## Psyren

> Hmm, I'm not sure how, if you are stuck with say Quicken and Empower until level 10, (which is what I played with) a bunch more spells solves the issues.  There are a lot of good spells you could get that work well for Subtle, Twin, etc, but you don't get those Metamagics.


Empower is underwhelming at low levels when you're rolling few/small dice and have limited AoE options, no argument here. I wouldn't call that an "issue" though, it's not like you're not allowed to read what it does before you pick it. An ability that lets you reroll multiple dice not being useful _until you're rolling multiple dice_ is pretty intuitive imo.

Quicken is fine even at low levels if you have something decent to do with your Action, e.g. hard-hitting or multiple attacks. I agree it can be a trap for a lot of players who don't (especially the ones coming to 5e from prior editions where Quicken was much stronger) but I feel the real issue there is the clarity/prominence of the bonus action casting rule rather than Quicken itself.

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## Pooky the Imp

> Well in short... _no,_ a non-spell feature should not be able to make up for inflexible spell selection on a full caster. For an extreme example, if every spell you pick is a blasting spell, then no amount of metamagic (or any other ancillary feature for that matter) should be able to "bail you out." There is no substitution for decent spell selection on a full caster, nor should there be.
> 
> Metamagic should enhance the flexibility of an already flexible loadout, and in my view the current implementation does that. Once they fix the _real_ problem with sorcerer - meager spell selection that you are locked into for multiple sessions if not an entire campaign - the class will be fine.


This is the thing, though, if metamagic only increases your flexibility if you start off with spells that are themselves incredibly flexible, it's not doing its job.

Yes, spell selection matters, but sorcerers shouldn't have a ton of trap spell choices on their list. Nor should they have to constantly sacrifice flavour to take the 'best' spells, with the others apparently existing only for decorational purposes.  :Small Yuk:

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## Psyren

> This is the thing, though, if metamagic only increases your flexibility if you start off with spells that are themselves incredibly flexible, it's not doing its job.
> 
> Yes, spell selection matters, but sorcerers shouldn't have a ton of trap spell choices on their list. Nor should they have to constantly sacrifice flavour to take the 'best' spells, with the others apparently existing only for decorational purposes.


1) Everybody has trap spells (and always will - Sturgeon's Law). The bigger issue is that Sorcerers (and Rangers) were the only classes locked into whatever bad spells they might have unknowingly picked for entire campaigns. That issue is being remedied in 1DnD.

2) I disagree with you that metamagic's job is to compensate for poor spell selection. Its job is to make good spells even better and enable tactics that other spellcasters can't achieve, not to fix player mistakes.

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## Boci

> 1) Everybody has trap spells (and always will - Sturgeon's Law). The bigger issue is that Sorcerers (and Rangers) were the only classes locked into whatever bad spells they might have unknowingly picked for entire campaigns. That issue is being remedied in 1DnD.


  This comes off as a little dismissive for people who don't immediately plan to switch to 1DnD, at least IMO. Certainly me and my friends won't be switching immediately, we have long term games in 5e that likely won't switch, and games starting in the near future will likewise be 5e, so telling us that an edition we may not use for years isn't the most helpful response and not why I started this thread.




> I don't know if this would appeal to anyone else, but does this at least explain my idea?


  Yeah, I understand the concept, its certainly doable. As an exhaustive system it would be an incredibly amount of effort, but as a "here's how I buff older sorceror arcehtypes, let me know your elemental focus and we can work out the details" it should work in most groups. If this is in addition to what sorceror's normally get, base class and arcehhtype, than I think a single focus/discipline based on the fluff/lore of their archtype should be enough. So fire could be for gold dragons, fire giants or pheonix sorcerors.

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## animorte

> This is the thing, though, if metamagic only increases your flexibility if you start off with spells that are themselves incredibly flexible, it's not doing its job.
> 
> Yes, spell selection matters, but sorcerers shouldn't have a ton of trap spell choices on their list. Nor should they have to constantly sacrifice flavour to take the 'best' spells, with the others apparently existing only for decorational purposes.


I consistently find it easy to agree with you and disagree at the same time. Its interesting.

Adding a different and stronger form of flexibility to all spells kind of removes the purposes of having any other spells available to begin with. If thats the case, there is a much easier way to accomplish the same thing. Eldritch Blast (as an example) or more accurately, Eldritch Invocations and Font of Magic should be the foundation for that.

Im all for a modular design that allows you to customize your primary source of damage to encompass various other effects on a limited basis. _(Ive been designing one and will have it up in the Homebrew thread in the near future.)_

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Empower is underwhelming at low levels when you're rolling few/small dice and have limited AoE options, no argument here. I wouldn't call that an "issue" though, it's not like you're not allowed to read what it does before you pick it. An ability that lets you reroll multiple dice not being useful _until you're rolling multiple dice_ is pretty intuitive imo.
> 
> Quicken is fine even at low levels if you have something decent to do with your Action, e.g. hard-hitting or multiple attacks. I agree it can be a trap for a lot of players who don't (especially the ones coming to 5e from prior editions where Quicken was much stronger) but I feel the real issue there is the clarity/prominence of the bonus action casting rule rather than Quicken itself.


My issue wasn't with the metamagics I took; they were great and worked well with my character.

Empower, agreed, isn't great until 5th, but it's also very economic in that 1 SP enables you to use it a lot.  Once you get fireball + the extra damage from Dragon sorc, your fireballs are pumping out about 40 hp per round; that's a lot of damage over a large area.
Quicken was also good, though a bit more niche.  There were a few times my DM looked at me and said, "You can't do that" when I was Dodging, Dashing, Disengaging, Drinking a potion... and casting a spell.  I just smiled and said, Quicken.  If people are taking it and expecting that an extra cantrip is going to make a difference, then it's a trap; If you can dash to get to a position where you can cast a spell like Web (this happened to me) and cut enemies in half it's great.  Disengage + Fireball (empowered): also great.

The big issue I has was once I got high enough in level (particularly 7th) to have a few extra spells, I was still stuck with a limited playstyle due to # of Metamagics. (Edit: # of SP didn't help either)

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## sambojin

This is why the "2 floating spells known at lvl1, 3 at lvl10" thing I mentioned fixes so much about a sorcerer.

You're not locked in. You can try things out. You can specifically pick things that work with your metamagics, or that just specifically work. At lvl5, you can use them for more lvl1 spells for that day, or more lvl3 spells. Need an element but don't have transmute, no worries, grab a specific spell. Campaign go all intrigue'y or stealth'y and you're a blaster, no worries. Grab some mind bending or disguise spells. It's your choice, every day, on those two-three spells. You can cover holes or push specialities or just muck around.

It's a really easy fix. And it works. Give it a go some time.

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## Psyren

> This comes off as a little dismissive for people who don't immediately plan to switch to 1DnD, at least IMO. Certainly me and my friends won't be switching immediately, we have long term games in 5e that likely won't switch, and games starting in the near future will likewise be 5e, so telling us that an edition we may not use for years isn't the most helpful response and not why I started this thread.


Wait, what? I wasn't being dismissive  :Small Confused:  I was speaking about the sorcerer class generally and what WotC is planning to do with it, not providing any recommendations or directives for your specific situation/table. Basically demonstrating that they're aware of the problem, even if they don't plan to actually do anything about it for the remainder of 5e except print sorcerers with more spells known between now and 2024.

To answer your question in the OP - yes, I do believe/concur that all the older archetypes should get bonus spells to be brought in line with the top 3, and that doing so wouldn't be overpowered. I think either variation (10+swap mechanic / 15 with no swap) would work fine for this.




> Empower, agreed, isn't great until 5th, but it's also very economic in that 1 SP enables you to use it a lot.  Once you get fireball + the extra damage from Dragon sorc, your fireballs are pumping out about 40 hp per round; that's a lot of damage over a large area. Quicken was also good, though a bit more niche.  There were a few times my DM looked at me and said, "You can't do that" when I was Dodging, Dashing, Disengaging, Drinking a potion... and casting a spell.  I just smiled and said, Quicken.  If people are taking it and expecting that an extra cantrip is going to make a difference, then it's a trap; If you can dash to get to a position where you can cast a spell like Web (this happened to me) and cut enemies in half it's great.  Disengage + Fireball (empowered): also great.


We're pretty aligned here I'd say.




> My issue wasn't with the metamagics I took; they were great and worked well with my character.
> ...
> The big issue I has was once I got high enough in level (particularly 7th) to have a few extra spells, I was still stuck with a limited playstyle due to # of Metamagics. (Edit: # of SP didn't help either)


I agree this is a problem (limited playstyle each day) sorcerers run into, but I still don't see it as a _metamagic_ problem. It's more of a chassis problem, and the fact that whatever you choose at 2 you're locked into until 10, which really punishes mistakes. 

Or at least, it did - thanks to Tasha's, we got the Sorcerous Versatility feature, giving sorcerers two chances (4 and 8) to realize that Empower should probably wait until the second round of metamagic acquisition and drop it for something more useful. And you can even get it back via Metamagic Adept from the same book, or grab something else.

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## Lucas Yew

> Hot take but the fact that sorcerers are known casters instead of prep casters is enough of a limiter. If anything they should have strictly more spells at their disposal than wizards since they cant change them as often


Really, this. I personally would have made all known casters know at least their level number of spells, while making ALL preppers prep like paladins and rangers (so half level plus modifier round down to 1).




> That's an interesting idea. Maybe old sorcerer archetpyes could be buffed by getting extra metamagics instead of spells known?


Why didn't I ever think of this nice idea, huh...

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## Segev

> Really, this. I personally would have made all known casters know at least their level number of spells, while making ALL preppers prep like paladins and rangers (so half level plus modifier round down to 1).


Speaking as a frequent caster player, the pinch on prepared spells is felt even with class level plus casting stat mod spells prepared.

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