# Forum > Gaming > Homebrew Design >  Mythos Homebrew Discussion III: Grievous Imbalance Is A Feature

## Xefas

It was becoming steadily more clear to me that no one was going to make this thread, so I guess I'll do it since we're at page 50.

Here's a brief synopsis of what Mythos Classes are by Kymme from the last thread.




> Mythos Classes:
> 
> The Mythos classes are homebrew classes created by Xefas that use Mythos, abilities that describe the stories that the classes tell and are told about them. The classes are about around Tier 2 in terms of power and are intended to represent truly mythical characters who are far more powerful than the mundane citizens of the story that takes place around them. They are intended to be extremely high powered and fit in with the other Tier 1-2 classes for a high power game.


Here're some links.

The Mythos Compendium. Where all the works of Mythos are stored by qazzquimby, both mine and others.
My Homebrew Signature. If you just want the stuff made by me.
The Mythos Setting Timeline. If you just want the fluff.

Mythos Homebrew Discussion I
Mythos Homebrew Discussion II: Where Simplicity Goes To Die

If anyone feels strongly enough about adding any more links to specific things, just say so. I just started with what I felt were the basics. 

Anyway, I think we were discussing how much violence is enough violence.

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## Primal Fury

> Anyway, I think we were discussing how much violence is enough violence.


Is this supposed to be a joke? The answer should be... like... _super_ obvious.

Also! I'm taking suggestions as to a better name for the Mythic Time-Bender. For some reason 'Fylakas' just isn't very satisfying.

As to what else the Teramach hates... Is there a whole lot of self-hate going on? That might be some interesting design space.

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## vasharanpaladin

> Anyway, I think we were discussing how much violence is enough violence.


More specifically, I had pointed out that the phrase "enough violence" cannot actually be used in conjunction with the Monster or any derivative anthols.  :Small Tongue:

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## spwack

Ah, the reason I require a list of things a Teramach hates its to provide vague goals for a new mechanic. Once Exalted level is reached, "Everything" is appropriate. But what about at lower levels? That's what I'm looking for.

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## Temotei

> Also! I'm taking suggestions as to a better name for the Mythic Time-Bender. For some reason 'Fylakas' just isn't very satisfying.


Kairatos was my working name for The Apeiron's Mythos. It's a perversion of the "kairos."

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## Primal Fury

> Kairatos was my working name for The Apeiron's Mythos. It's a perversion of the "kairos."


Oh. There doesn't even need to be any corruption; the class can just be called "The Kairos". That feels better. Thanks Tem.  :Small Wink:

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## spwack

Ok, probably the last thing before I reveal what I've been making: I need a dozen or so names (first or last) that a Teramach might be known by. It's not vital, but it'll make me finish it :P

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## DracoDei

> Hm... You don't think that applying the miss chance is enough? You think I should apply the bonuses as well? Like... While benefiting from this you might seem to move at increased speed, but if you're on the receiving end, you might appear to move in slow motion. Something like that?


I was just talking about those advantages in general, without consideration for which ones should and should not be used in specific. I think I would have defaulted to "What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, so probably use all of them at one stage or another." but whatever makes things work the best, which is hard for anyone to tell without seeing a full rough draft.

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## khadgar567

Small question to every one since we dismantle exalted how we can make daiklave via mythos class

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## spwack

Here. Have this. I made this. It is messy. It is dumb. It is also mine. I lied. It's Xefas'. Never mind that.

*Spoiler: THE TERAMACH, for use in Dungeon World*
Show


Name: Omnom, Ripper, Burnt, Siddhran, Razortooth

Look:
Body  Oversized, fleshy, scarred
Eyes  Blazing, squinty, dripping, hollow
Teeth  Shark-like, blocky, fanged
Mulscles  Shredded, ripped, grotesque

Damage: 1d12
HP: 10+Constitution

Alignment:
Chaotic  Break the law and/or defy common sense
Evil  Enjoy the suffering of a sentient creature
Hungry  Eat a lot of something, probably food

Race:
You may have been an elf, dwarf, halfling, or human before, but you sure arent one now.

Chewer  You can eat anything solid or drink anything liquid and gain sustenance from it
Pounder  Your hands and feet are nigh indestructible
Freakshow  When your very presence horrifies someone, gain 1 XP

Bonds (maximum of two):
_____ will die. Probably by my hands.
I can tell that _____ has a Monster within.

Starting Moves:
The Monsters Mythos  You gain a pool of Rage points equal to your STR+half your level. You can spend a point to turn a missed Hack and Slash roll, Defy Danger roll using Strength, Dexterity or Constitution, or any Teramach move into a partial hit. You gain one point of Rage each time you make progress towards destroying one of your Hatreds. You can also gain 1 XP per session for making significant progress in your quest for the destruction of your Hatreds. Choose two:

- The Trappings of Civilisation
- Beauty, Purity and Innocence
- Threats to Your Place in the Food Chain
- Complexity
- Imperfection

You also gain a Rage point each time you rip an enemy to shreds. By DMs discretion, any missed roll made in pursuit of destroying one of your Hatreds may also be turned into a partial hit by expending a point. While you have at least one Rage point, you are incapable of showing any restraint in your attacks, you cannot flee from battle, and you can never, never show mercy to fallen enemies. Additionally, any creature that attacks you in any way is treated as an enemy for all purposes.

Primitive Brutality  You lose the ability to use manufactured weapons. In return, your unarmed attacks gain the messy and forceful tags, and are always able to be used to Hack and Slash, and you suffer no risk for going into melee unarmed. Additionally, improvised weaponry, the random detritus of combat, are always usable in a similar fashion to your unarmed attacks, however, they must have been collected within the last few moments. After a man has been killed with his own dinner table, that table's purpose, and its charm, are gone. The Teramach cannot coax more enthusiasm into it, any more than an artist can simply disgorge inspiration on command.

Scarred Flesh  You lose the ability to gain any benefit from manufactured armor or shields. Instead, you gain armor equal to your STR.

Starting gear: 
The clothes on your back

Max load: 12+STR

Advanced Moves:

2-5
All-Consuming Rampage Release  The Monster is angry. Very, very angry. It's angry that it exists. It's angry that others exist. It's angry at the sky above its head, and the ground beneath its feet. Nothing has ever been made that does not make it angry. How is it not justice to repay in kind so infuriating a world? Gain a Rage point each time you enter combat, so long as it is a violent entry.

Fury Is Freedom  Spend a Rage point and suffer 1d4 damage to negate an ongoing effect you are suffering from

God-Smashing Blow  When you Hack and Slash, on a 10+ you knock your enemy to the ground

Psychotic Sapience-Brutalizing Devolution  Complexity is pain and weakness and indecision. To become the Monster is to gain the certainty never afforded to men. That terrible creature long ago tore from itself all of that which was not rage and murder, and by subtraction it became perfect and complete in its atrocity.

By letting go of your complexity, take the Stunned debility and gain a Rage point. While you have this debility, you may act normally, except you cannot speak and take -1 to INT. In return, you may spend a Rage point to turn a missed Defy Danger using INT, into a partial hit.

Raging Behemoth Charge  Enemies no longer have the drop on you, so long as you run and attack them straight away

Retribution Will Follow  Whenever a new enemy attacks you, you gain a Rage point, but you must kill them before you do anything else

Sacrosanct Blood-Titan Idol Adoption  You regain the ability to use manufactured weapons, but only if you have stolen them in combat in the last few moments. After that, you have no clue what you are doing with it.

World-Breaker Grip - When the Monster looks at the world, all it sees are things to kill, and things to kill with. The two are certainly not mutually exclusive. When you Hack and Slash while holding an enemy, you deal half the damage to the enemy you are holding.

Screaming Meat Shield (Requires World-Breaker Grip)  Enemies that you use as weapons take the full damage from being used to Hack and Slash. Additionally, any enemy that attacks you must Defy Danger to avoid hitting their ally.

Hot-Blooded Lunatic Conflagration  You become immune to non-magical fire. When you come in contact with fire, spend a Rage point to become wreathed in it for the next few moments. Any enemy that hits you or is hit by you must Defy Danger to avoid being set alight

Post Traumatic Brutality Roar  You have leverage against all sentient enemies that have seen you murder another sentient being. The leverage of course is not being dismembered like that guy. When you scream at them to use this leverage, roll+STR instead of +CHA. If you have the Scarred debility, you take +1 to this. For obvious reasons.

Solipsistic Reality-Rejecting Devolution - By letting go of your common sense, take the Confused debility and gain a Rage point. While you have this debility, you may act normally, but struggle to detect fine detail. You would be able notice that a ninja was sneaking up on you, but you would struggle to notice that his clothes are "black", instead of "orange", or "chair", or "quadratic meat bicycle", and take -1 to WIS. In return, you may spend a Rage point to turn a missed Defy Danger using WIS, into a partial hit.

6-10
Humanity-Reaving Psychosis Echo (Requires Post Traumatic Brutality Roar)  When you use PTBR, enemies must Defy Danger or be permanently damaged by their exposure to you. They must choose between taking -1 ongoing against you, forever, or becoming more like you. If they choose to become more like you, their alignment switches to Evil  Enjoy the suffering of a sentient creature. These creatures are known as Reavers. If a group of Reavers tortures a sentient creature to death, that creature may choose to become a Reaver instead of being killed. You need never attack a Reaver if you do not want to.

Perpetual Rage Engine  When you reach the maximum number of Rage points, you increase in height and weight for the remainder of the battle. Enemies that Defy Danger to try and avoid or get away from you take -1.

Tireless Abomination Vitality  Spend a Rage point as soon as you get it to heal 2d4 hitpoints. Rage points you spend from your pool heal 1d4 hitpoints instead.

Meaningless Force-of-Nature Devolution - By letting go of your understanding of your own limitations, take the Scarred debility and gain a Rage point. While you have this debility, your hatred for living creatures transcends the physical. By spending a Rage point, you can detect any sentient, living creature within a small area for a few moments. This is not True Seeing or anything similar, you just know where they are through the residual hatred you feel for their continued existence

Rampaging Through Paper Cities  When you destroy an inanimate object with unimaginable strength, roll+STR. Take +1 if the object is in your way. It is destroyed. On a 10+, choose one:
- It takes absolutely no time at all to destroy it, you just plow through it
- You are left with a nifty improvised weapon
- The spray of shrapnel can damage nearby enemies
- The damage spreads throughout nearby connected elements, for example, you could punch a single brick in a castle wall, and the castle wall would collapse
On a miss, it is still destroyed, but it probably wasnt a good idea to do so.

11-15 (Exalted)
Body Of Samsara's Supernal Monster (Requires Meaningless Force-of-Nature Devolution)  When you activate the hate-sense of MF-o-ND and you detect no allies, you may transform into the Body of Samsara's Supernal Monster. You double in size, the Hate-sense is permanently on, and you take +1 ongoing. If an ally enters your hate-sense field, either designate them an enemy or Defy Danger with WIS to remain Supernal. You must reroll this every time you make a move with an ally in the hate-sense field, taking -1 cumulatively for each time you have had to make the roll during the current transformation.

Land-Shaping Limitation Ignorance  Once per day, for a single moment, there is nothing you cannot kill or destroy in a single punch.

Protagonism-Devouring Legend Singularity  Enemies that you kill can never be revived. Additionally, if they cant be killed for some reason, you can kill them. If they would come alive some time later, they dont. If the DM disagrees with you, spend all your Rage points. The enemy dies when you kill it, and it stays dead.

Manifold Flesh-Monster Armory  You suddenly grow an additional four arms. Each arm along with your original set, can take any form, from twisting tentacles to scything appendages to pounding fists. Your unarmed attacks gain +1 damage and the reach, near, piercing 2 tags. Your damage with unarmed attacks becomes b[2d12].

Sun-Eating Gorge-Monster Gluttony (Requires Rampaging Through Paper Cities)  When you use Rampaging Through Paper cities, you can pick two options, so long as one of them is the damage spread. When you do so, the damage is not a kick or a punch, but the tremendous pressure of your hunger, sucking in all destroyed objects or parts of objects in the area. If you manage to eat a huge amount, you may choose to vomit it up, dealing your damage to any enemies in front of you within near range.

Unconquerable Swallowed-Sun Prana (Requires Sun-Eating Gorge-Monster Gluttony, and for you to have eaten a sun)  Spend a Rage point and chose a point within far range. You breathe forth the radiance of the sun you have devoured in a line. Any enemy hit directly must Defy Danger or be incinerated, and any enemies or objects in the general vicinity are at risk of the intense heat.

Within A Perfect World, I Would Be Dead (Requires Humanity-Reaving Psychosis Echo and a large number of Reavers that worship, fear and/or hate you)  But the world isnt perfect. When you die, the Reavers you influence begin fighting, murdering each other in a frenzy of violence. After about a month, a new alpha Reaver has arisen to take your place. They now the exact same stats, starting moves and advanced moves as you did, but will have a different name, look, race and bonds. Large portions of your memories overlay their own, as your essence claims its right to rule.

Untamed Apocalypse Shintai  When you take this move, your current Hatreds are removed. In their place, your new Hatred is Everything. You must always, always be moving towards sentient living creatures with the intent to kill them. If you do not, you go into a mindless rage until you kill the nearest sentient living creature. When you kill an enemy, you regenerate health equal to your current Rage points, and for the next few moments, instead of being reduced to 0 hitpoints by damage, you are instead reduced to 1 hitpoint.



Yes, this is a 3.5e homebrew class that has been ported into a medieval era hack for the Powered by the Apocalypse system. Deal with it.

So far, it's just a fair few of the Mythos that have been butchered to fit the DW system. Large blocks of flavor text have been copied indiscriminately. A few things have changed. A few things are very much the same. I'll add some brand new stuff when... when I get around to that. What do people think thus far?

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## Xefas

> What do people think thus far?


Looks good to me. The version of Dungeon World I've played seems to be older and different (somewhat) from the current one, so I can't say much mechanically. Scarred Flesh seems strong, but that might be just compared to my ye olde Apocalypse World knowledge. Rage Points are something I'd have to see in actual play to get a good feel for, but seem cool. I think you did a beautiful job adapting some Vincent Baker Hack-The-Apocalypse verbage to the abilities. Protagonism-Devouring Legend Singularity in particular gave me a big laugh. I love it. 

It seems to me that the Teramach has a place in the Dungeon World lineup. Its Barbarian is defined by a lot more things than just strength and rage, so I think the two can coexist as different archetypes. Like Brick and Krieg.

Might I suggest an ability for dealing bonus damage to Groups or Hordes when you exact unnecessarily gruesome and unnatural violence against them?

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## spwack

> Looks good to me. The version of Dungeon World I've played seems to be older and different (somewhat) from the current one, so I can't say much mechanically. Scarred Flesh seems strong, but that might be just compared to my ye olde Apocalypse World knowledge. Rage Points are something I'd have to see in actual play to get a good feel for, but seem cool. I think you did a beautiful job adapting some Vincent Baker Hack-The-Apocalypse verbage to the abilities. Protagonism-Devouring Legend Singularity in particular gave me a big laugh. I love it. 
> 
> It seems to me that the Teramach has a place in the Dungeon World lineup. Its Barbarian is defined by a lot more things than just strength and rage, so I think the two can coexist as different archetypes. Like Brick and Krieg.
> 
> Might I suggest an ability for dealing bonus damage to Groups or Hordes when you exact unnecessarily gruesome and unnatural violence against them?


Scarred Flesh gives a max of 3 armor, which is equal to an armor+shield combo. It has some utility as it cannot be removed, but it also disallows magic equipment, as per usual.

The Mythos Point and Hatred system is designed to reward insanity with partial immunity to failure. Which is OK I guess. I added the small XP bonuses because without those failures it's much harder. It might be interesting to get rid of this, force the player to decide between spending a point and missing the XP, or shouldering the blow and getting stronger from it.

I also like PDLS. I've moved a few of the more exotic Legendaries and Exalted Mythos into the 11-15 bracket, whereas every other class ends at 10. I'm torn between making levels 1-10 be of the same balance as other classes (and having 11-15 be higher powered), and bringing the whole thing up a notch. What do you think? I'm thinking that levels 1-10 should fit in with every other class, and 11-15 to be allowed or forbidden on a case-by-case basis. On the other hand... it's a Termach. This is Mythos.

I'll add a move that means overkill damage is spread around nearby enemies. It'll be a 2-5 move. An ideas for a name?

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## Lanth Sor

I had a horrible idea. Mythic Insanity(I'm insane/make people insane...but mostly I'm insane), Mythic Sin(7 deadlies of course), Mythic Ignorance(Billy was actually a "genius", its spelled ORK)

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## Primal Fury

I'm dipping my toes back into the Daskalos, the Mythic Teacher, and I'm wondering what would make sense as a way for them to gain more mythos points. Donating to their ally's improvement _sounds_ reasonable, but that might translate to actual mechanical benefits.

Also. There's something in here called *Hero-Fondling Hands*. I make no apologies.

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## spwack

I... uh... Fondling? Huh. Well, perhaps overly ornate framed achievements of your students could be a decent money sink? And when I say "overly ornate", really go ham.

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## Primal Fury

> I... uh... Fondling?


Yes. Fondling.




> Huh. Well, perhaps overly ornate framed achievements of your students could be a decent money sink? And when I say "overly ornate", really go ham.


Oh... I see where you're going with that. Yeah... Yeah I like it. Like paying a bard to wander the land singing of their accomplishments. Or paying a bard to follow them around to record them.

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## spwack

> Yes. Fondling.
> 
> 
> Oh... I see where you're going with that. Yeah... Yeah I like it. Like paying a bard to wander the land singing of their accomplishments. Or paying a bard to follow them around to record them.


I was thinking of a trophy wall (and was rather dissatisfied with it), but your idea of any record sounds much better (geddit? Sounds? Because it's a bard?)

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## Primal Fury

Tell me how this sounds. I'm especially concerned about the last part with the traveling bard.




> A Daskalos also has the ability to learn more Mythos, above the ones automatically allotted to him by leveling up. Whenever he spends resources wholly dedicated to glorifying the deeds of his disciples or allies, he recoups the gold piece value of those resources in mythos points. First, the Daskalos must witness his ally or disciple accomplish a feat worthy of recognition; this can include defeating a well-renowned opponent (such an orc warlord), or solving a centuries old riddle. Next, the Daskalos must determine how they will glorify the accomplishment. For the former example, he might decapitate the orc warlord and pay to have his head magically preserved, serving as a permanent trophy; for the latter example, the Daskalos might record the dialogue between his disciple and the sphinx presenting the riddle, later paying a bard to write an epic poem or compose a song painting them as a great hero accomplishing an impossible task. One could even go as far as to pay a bard to travel with the party to keep track of the group's achievements, paying them a regular salary. It must be noted that, in this final case, the gold piece value only becomes mythos points after the bard both creates AND distributes tales and ballads of your allies' glory.

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## pieman2945

> Tell me how this sounds. I'm especially concerned about the last part with the traveling bard.


Seems good to me.  But I have to add that while you said 'centuries old riddle,' you never specified it had to be unsolved. Any easy riddle for children written 100 years ago might qualify.  :Small Wink:

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## DracoDei

Some ramblings off the top of my head:
Picking the word "Bard" rather than "Minstrel" raises the the possibility of the NPC (or worse, PC) in question serving too useful of a resource, thus getting BOTH a useful party member AND Mythos points out of the payment. Of course, the "wholely dedicated" clause prevents this, but it does indicate a situation that is rather tricky to deal with in a fair manner.

I'll also point out that the whole thing gets a bit tangled (regardless of specific mechanism) when you get into an intrigue/guerilla warfare/stealth based campaign. Perhaps that particular class is simply unsuited for that sort of campaign? I don't even recall what the class is supposed to be, so take that with a grain of salt.

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## Primal Fury

> Some ramblings off the top of my head:
> Picking the word "Bard" rather than "Minstrel" raises the the possibility of the NPC (or worse, PC)


That does make more sense.




> I'll also point out that the whole thing gets a bit tangled (regardless of specific mechanism) when you get into an intrigue/guerilla warfare/stealth based campaign. Perhaps that particular class is simply unsuited for that sort of campaign? I don't even recall what the class is supposed to be, so take that with a grain of salt.


Well... What about propaganda and fear-mongering? Less "Hear ye people! The hero, whose name is Bob, has come to liberate us from tyranny!" and more "Hey guys, did you hear about that masked vigilante, Bob Man? Dude is crazy strong and super cool. Spread the word."

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## DracoDei

> Well... What about propaganda and fear-mongering? Less "Hear ye people! The hero, whose name is Bob, has come to liberate us from tyranny!" and more "Hey guys, did you hear about that masked vigilante, Bob Man? Dude is crazy strong and super cool. Spread the word."


Yeah, that sounds like the way to go, but you might want to include that explanation in the next draft of the paragraph you posted. Just makes it clearer for anyone who isn't thinking very creatively when they read that paragraph.

Also depends on if the goal is "plausible deniability" or "they would never in their wildest dreams guess it was Bob and his compatriots". Maybe explain that leaving the name "Bob" off it it, or even framing someone (fictitious?) isn't necessarily a deal-killer? Or at least in some campaigns?

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## spwack

Ok, Anakitos port is done. I'm not quite as happy with this one as the Teramach port. I doubt it's the source material, I'm just not really getting the same sense of douche-baggery as I wanted... eh.

---

*Spoiler*
Show


Name: Kakarot, Nappa, Bardock, Turles, Raditz, Tarble

Look:
Eyes  Vibrant, violent, hypnotic, ethereal
Hair  Flowing, braided, luscious
Aura  Twisting strands, vibrating essence, soft glow

Damage: d8
HP: 8+Constituion

Societal Alignment:
Lawful  Weigh the needs of the group over the needs of the individual 
(Caprice: Dont do something you are asked to do by authority)
Chaotic  Weigh the needs of the individual over the needs of the group  
(Anxiety: Avoid making a plan or difficult decision by passing it off to someone else)

Moral Alignment:
Good  Alleviate the suffering of another 
(Rage: Lash out in sudden violence against perceived injustice)
Evil  Treat the suffering of another as inconsequential 
(Guilt: Avoid violence at any cost)

Bonds:

Starting Moves:
The Suns Mythos  Each move is marked with [Purity], [Conviction] or [Courage]. Each is a Fetter, a measure of how the Anakitos can uphold the lofty principles that the Suns power rests upon. Each Feature comes in three levels, Shining, Waning, and Broken. If a Fetter is Broken, moves relating to that Fetter cannot be used.

[Purity] is a measure of what lengths the Anakitos goes to maintaining their physical integrity. It is reduced by one rank when you take any debility, are poisoned, take more than one third of your hitpoints in damage in one hit, or spend more than a few moments in magical darkness. Purity is increased by one rank after an hour spent meditating. You cannot restore Purity ranks if you are suffering from poison, disease, or are drunk or otherwise intoxicated.

[Conviction] is a measure of your dedication to a particular set of ethics that you hold sacred. It takes the two-part form of your Societal and Moral alignment. You lose one rank of Conviction whenever you deliberately and directly act against your either part of your alignment, or convince someone else to do so. You regain one lost rank whenever you act in accordance with your beliefs, or convince another to act in accordance with your beliefs when they otherwise wouldn't. Along with losing access to [Conviction] moves, one (or both) of your alignments switches to the alternative alignment for 24 hours, or until your [Conviction] is Shining.

[Courage] is a measure of your willingness to accept challenges and threats, and attempt to overcome them even when it is inconvenient or dangerous. Quite simply, you lose a rank of Courage when you decline a challenge that is not completely impossible, and gain a rank when you complete a challenge.

Rising Sun Glory  Add half your Charisma score to maximum HP, and add the forceful tag to your unarmed attacks.

Advanced Moves:
2-5
Absolute Victory Meditation [Courage]  Each day at dawn, roll 2d6 a number of time equal to your STR. At any time, you may replace a Hack and Slash roll with one of these Arete dice after you roll. You may reroll your entire Arete pool once per day by meditating for 5 minutes.

Bravery-Inspiring Presence [Courage] - When the great calamity, the red beast, the heart of all monsters stood before the Sun, and galactic tides of horror burnt and withered his world, sending his soldiers fleeing to their deaths, he braced against the flood and did not look away. "Pray, little rebel., said the monster-heart, "Cast off your chains, so you may make good sport for my master."

The Sun regarded his golden chains, glimmering in the light of a burning sky. "Make no mistake, creature." He said. "My fetters withhold no strength, but weakness. Mine and others." And the monster-heart looked behind the sun, and four stars there shone, each grasping a link of the Sun's courage.

When you are face to face with a threat, with allies by your side, roll+CHA. On a 10+, choose two, on a 7-9, choose one. One a miss, still choose one but youve put yourself in harms way.
- Allies take +1 armor ongoing until the threat is removed
- Allies take +2 on Defy Danger rolls to avoid fear

 Corruption-Denying Integrity [Purity]  When you Defy Danger to avoid an ongoing affect, on a 10+ choose one.
- You become immune to that effect
- Take +1 forward against the source of the effect
- You impress, dismay or frighten on looking enemies

Unblemished Unity Of Mind And Spirit [Purity]  When you have any penalty to a roll from an enemy effect, take +1 to that roll

Sun-Bronzed God King Physique [Conviction]  Your damage dice increases to d10. When you spend a day in sunlight, your Strength score increases by 1 to a maximum of 18. You can also never sunburn.

That Which is Not the Light [Purity]  Pick an enemy type, take +1 ongoing against them. When dealing with your Favored Enemy, betraying a Good, Chaotic, or Lawful tenet of your Conviction never causes your Conviction to diminish. Respecting the dignity of sentient life is all well and good... unless it's them. We file those atrocities under 'The Greater Good'.

Thousand Sunbeam Array [Courage]  When you Hack and Slash with a manufactured weapon, you can Hack and Slash another enemy with an unarmed attack.

6-10
Immaculate Sun-Soul Radiance [Purity] - Your soul begins to radiate a kind of pure cosmic energy; too much to be contained in your physical form. The energy leaks out of you in a brilliant nimbus of light - almost always golden in hue, with rare exception. This light shines out to near range, and can be seen from far range, and is natural sunlight in every way. You can suppress this effect through a minute of meditation, but take -1 ongoing and cannot use any abilities with this move as a requirement. You can release your aura in an instant, which always happens if you fall unconscious. You are immune to blindness.

Infinite Supernova Strength [Courage]  When you Hack and Slash, on a 10+ the enemy is knocked to the ground. You never suffer a penalty for attacking an enemy that is larger than you.

Sky-Illuminating Sunfire Projection [Purity] (Requires Immaculate Sun-Soul Radiance)   You can use your aura to fly.

Arms-Of-Heaven Anima Mandala [Purity] (Requires Immaculate Sun-Soul Radiance)  You gain extra set of glowing spectral arms that emerge from your aura. Attacks made with these arms gain the reach tag, and when Hack and Slash an enemy, on a 10+ you deal bonus damage equal to your CHA. If you attack an enemy with both your natural arms and your aura arms, your damage becomes b[1d8], or b[1d10] with Sun-Bronzed God King Physique. When you Hack and Slash an enemy, on a 10+ you deal bonus damage equal to your CHA

Rote Protagonism Strike [Courage] (Requires Absolute Victory Meditation)  You ready your weapon and address your posture towards a particular foe. They understand your intent to harm them, and their body responds as it always does to danger, doing what it can to prevent harm to itself. But then, within the passing of instants, they realize something utterly horrific; today, they woke up believing, as all do, that they were the central character of their own story, the protagonist whose actions were always justified, whose life was interesting and worthwhile simply because they were at the center of it, and they believed themselves to not just be some collection of particles drifting in a vast universe, living in the background of some greater being's tale - and they were wrong. You are the protagonist, not them. This is your story, and the hero always wins. It's what the audience wants, its what the writers churn out by the pounds and tons, its what sells. There was never any choice, never any possibility that your attack would fail, that they would manage to dodge it, that they could withstand it by any herculean feat of endurance, because that would mean that they matter.

Lose an Arete dice and make an attack. Dont roll, you hit as if you rolled a 12+.

Self-Made Miracle Authority [Purity]  You gain the commune and cast a spell cleric moves. When you select this move, treat yourself as a cleric of level 1 for using spells. Every time you gain a level thereafter, increase your effective cleric level by 1.

11-15

Fiery Daystar Incarnation [Purity] (Requires Immaculate Sun-Soul Radiance)  The cosmic energy flowing from your soul is strengthened and stratified into four layers, the first extending to near range, the second to far range, the third to distant range and the fourth to extreme range. You are immune to all the effects.

Anything in the first layer must Defy Danger or be set alight and blinded if it has eyes. To avoid being blinded, a layer of material or something similar must be in place. Closed eyes will not suffice.

Anything with eyes in the second layer must Defy Danger if it looks directly at you.

Although the heat of the third layer is not enough to deal damage or blind, it does raise the temperature to uncomfortable levels, evaporating moisture into the air, and not allowing it to cool, preventing the formation of natural precipitation. If you stay in the same region for long enough without setting, crops will begin to wither, aquifers will begin to dry up, soil will dry and crack, and animals will be highly confused, possibly deserting the area.

To creatures in the forth layer, you appear as an indistinct light, like an oddly persistent sunrise or sunset.

It now takes you an hour to contain your aura, though it still takes only a moment to release it.

Sol Invictus [Conviction]  You cannot die, and damage never decreases you below 1 hit point.

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## Xefas

I think the Conviction theme could work really well with Dungeon World's alignment system, but I doubt Purity should be translated so directly. I recall that Apocalypse World had a 'harm' move that you rolled when you suffered harm, where depending on how high you rolled, the MC could tack on some side effects, like getting knocked prone.

If Dungeon World has something like that, you could represent Purity as just adding an additional option for the MC - they can turn one of your powers off as one of their side effect choices if you roll badly on taking harm.

Courage could be something like when you deny a challenge, roll +Cha. On a 10+, you make the challenge sound either too foolish to take seriously or too beneath you to merit notice. On a 7-9, you must blindly accept the challenge without delay, or the MC turns off one of your powers. On a 6 or less, you must blindly accept the challenge without delay, or the MC turns off two of your powers and you take -1 ongoing. 

Maybe not that exactly, but something like that. 

Conviction could be something like when you act in opposition to one of your alignments or convince someone else to do so, roll +Cha. On a 10+, you justify the act to yourself for now, but take a stacking -1 ongoing to Conviction rolls until you roll a 6 or less on one. On a 7-9, the MC turns off one of your powers and you take a stacking -1 ongoing to Conviction rolls until you roll a 6 or less. On a 6 or less, you suffer a crisis of character and your alignments shift (Caprice/Guilt/etc, like you have it) for the next session. You don't make Conviction rolls during that session. 

And their powers wouldn't necessarily need [Courage], [Conviction], [Purity] tags.

Just some thoughts. You know the system better than I do, and you did a good job with the Teramach, so I'm sure this will come together too.

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## spwack

AW has harm and the harm move. DW has hitpoints like... well, pretty much everything else. I agree with you though, the harm move would work better. When (if) I make my consolidated Mythos World hack, I'll probably use harm once again.

With the Fetters, I left their severity where you had them, so I could have the moves up at Mythic levels. Risk/reward, you see. So long as you keep your standards up, you get the shiny toys. I'd probably need to playtest it to see where the balance between broken Fetters and overpowered moves falls apart.

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## Xefas

> AW has harm and the harm move. DW has hitpoints like... well, pretty much everything else.


Tangent*Spoiler*
Show


Hit points aren't all that common outside of D&D's direct sphere of influence. Storyteller has its health levels filled with different kinds of damage and wound penalties. Fate has its weirdly applied stress and taggable consequences. Mouse Guard and Lady Blackbird have purely narratively enforced condition tags. In A Wicked Age has mechanically enforced condition tags. Mythender has its wound boxes that, on their own, aren't anything special, but tie into their unique storm/thunder dice and corruption stuff (you can take on some corruption to punch death in the face and crawl out of the underworld Kratos-style as an explicit, universal, and potentially frequently used mechanic). Burning Wheel has the new-player-terror-inducing PTGS (Physical Tolerances Grayscale). Don't Rest Your Head has its pain dice/pain domination/despair coins/etc weirdness. Dread has instant deeeeath. Primetime Adventures and Pilgrims of the Flying Temple are so rules-light that physical consequences are purely narration.  InSpectres has penalized die pools. The Marvel Heroic Roleplaying System uses stress and trauma dice.

The list goes on. There are a lot of ways to represent damage other than a pool of points that goes up or down, with a death threshold at the bottom.

I feel like Dungeon World was fairly unique in that it's a 'story game' that went back to the ye olde classic D&D hit points, which is very uncommon. 




> When (if) I make my consolidated Mythos World hack, I'll probably use harm once again.


I wish you luck, and I think there's a lot of potential there. It'll be cool to see what you come up with for Agendas and Principles.

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## spwack

Huh. When I say "pretty much everything else" I was referring to the fantasy genre as a whole. Now that you mention it, I guess I'll take a look at all of this ^ before I do anything else. When I was running an uber-highpowered (read: dumb) PVP campaign, where everyone had pretty much whatever they wanted, I had a thing called Kill Shots. Basically, any attack could wound or incapacitate, but only dramatic actions, at the appropriate time, could kill any other player. Perhaps something like that could work? Just less stupid. I'll give some thought to the Agenda. What would you have in mind for that?

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## DracoDei

Okay, here is a snippet from the Phileotheysia I need some formatting advice on, and maybe a double-check on the entire underlying concept (although I've mentioned it in the past, so someone probably would have mentioned if it were a horrible idea).
*Class Skills:* Concentration(Con), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Heal(Wis), Knowledge[Religion] (Int), Profession(Wis), Sense Motive(Wis), Speak Language(N/A), Spellcraft(Int), Tumble(Dex), and Use Rope(Dex)

*Spoiler: Additional class skills are added by several excellencies.*
Show

Full use of the following(some may also be available from different excellencies for partial use/access): Balance, Bluff, Climb, Decipher Script, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge[Dungeoneering], Knowledge[Geography], Knowledge[Local], Knowledge[Nature], Knowledge[Nobility and Royalty], Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Spot, Swim, and Survival

And partial use of these: Disable Device, Knowledge[Arcana], Knowledge[History],  Knowledge[The Planes], and Search.

So, my formatting question is:
Should I take the extra time to list which excellencies add which skills I that part of the class? Cleric lists which SRD domains add which skills.

My other (less important) set of questions:
This concerns my idea that those Excellencies should increase the (6+Int. Mod.) skill-base of the class if one takes enough of them. First to 7+Int. Mod. (probably at 2 such excellencies) then to 8+Int. Mod. (probably at 3 such excellencies). Naturally, this would be retroactive. I assume that none of this should cause any great problems? Are the number of Excellencies required for each boost good? Should hitting 9 +Int. Mod be verbotin, or would say... 4 or 5 such excellencies justify making the rogue cry like that? I have 9 such excellencies so far.

If it is relevant, almost all such Excellencies add at least two skills*, and most of them add some feats too. Mostly just stuff like Alertness, Stealthy, etc that give bonuses to the skills being granted, but I did throw in Darkstalker** on top of Stealthy (+2 Hide & Move Silently) on the excellency that gives you Hide and Move Silently.
*The exceptions are the Excellency that only adds Appraise, but does a bunch of things for Craft, Profession, and sometimes Survival checks and the Excellency(EDIT: Actually, this one is an Exceptional Mythos, but I threw the [Skillful Protector] tag onto it too) that grants Perform to go with a somewhat narrow selection of bardic music abilities, which is arguably a single skill.
**I don't actually own the book for this one, but I have heard some stuff about it letting you make hide checks against stuff with Blindsight and such.

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## Xefas

> I'll give some thought to the Agenda. What would you have in mind for that?


Maybe something like:

Make the world seem larger than lifePresent players with impossible challenges for which they require impossible solutionsPlay to find out what happens

?

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## spwack

... I wrote a little while ago:

- Embrace the Mythic nature of the world and characters
- Give the players epic challenges, and the tools to deal with them
- Play to find out what happens

Can't be a coincidence. 

EDIT: Right. I've finished a bit more. This'll be somewhat of a stream of conciousness but, uh, yeah.


The principles are left more-or-less unchanged from AW:
	- Spew forth Mythos
	- Address yourself to the characters, not the players
	- Make your move, but misdirect
	- Make your move, but never speak its name
	- Keep the headsmans axe sharp
	- Name everyone that matters
	- Let the winds of fate blow away the chaff
	- Ask provocative questions and build on the answers
	- Respond with grand and brutal narration and the rewards they fight for
	- Be in awe of the power of the characters, but dont let it blind you
	- Work with the narrative essence of Mythos
	- Think offscreen too
	- Sometimes, disclaim decision-making

The five stats so far (as is traditional) are Rage, Wrath, Balance, Deception and Arrogance. Rage is "hot", Wrath is "cold", so to speak. Each has the a primary move linked to it, in order, Destroy, Attack, Counter, Strike, and Command. Every primary move can be used to make an attack, and also as a social move. It's made for some interesting descriptions so far. Yes, the Destroy move which is roll+Rage, favored by the Teramach, can be used in a philosophical debate. It's a thing.

I'm toying with the idea of Narrative Essence. This stuff, NE, is what separates the characters from the background chaff. Any major character, including of which is the players, have some amount of Narrative essence. For the most part, it is quite simple: It's impossible to kill someone who possesses any amount of it. NE can be spent to change the threat in a narrative manner (see below), empower moves, and allow Mythic Characters to fight in an awesome manner (also see below). They regenerate in some manner.

Regarding levelling, I'm kind of erring on the side of not having XP. Rather, in order to level up from Exceptional to Fantastic (or from background chaff to Exceptional) you have to meet a set of milestones. These would, pretty much, be exactly the descriptions of the Mythos Tiers. Exhibit A:




> Exceptional Mythos tell the tales of thugs, brutes, madmen, psychopaths, cannibals, and serial murderers


 from the Teramach character. In order to become Exceptional, you need to be feared in a major population area for bloody, violent crimes. You might not have done them, you just need to be _feared_. Or any number of other milestones. I'm feeling milestones would be more like achievements, each with different points. Of course, players and MC would be invited to write their own, to the approval of all other players.

HPwise, NE covers most of that. If you don't defend yourself, your dead. If you are stabbed in such a manner that it _is_ fatal, you are dead. If you would be stabbed and don't want to be, you can try and weasel your way out (difficult) or spend an NE.

Other uses for NE: A Teramach is on a mission to discover who murdered the latest king. He has found some clues, questioned some suspects, and is getting really, really bored with all this mystery. He spends one NE, leaps through a wall and lands on the prime suspect, literally in the act of killing someone else. Easy. Except the suspect has imbibed some magic serum, increasing their size and making them a threat of equal difficulty to solving the mystery. It doesn't just beat the challenge. It doesn't end the story. It just changes it in some way. A polite individual would tell the MC some time before they use it.

Or: A Cynosure and a Bellator are squaring off. The Cynosure thinks it's a battle of wits. The Bellator thinks it's a battle using bloody big bits of metal. Each time the Bellator takes a violent swing, the Cynosure pays the price, steps aside, and makes a quip. Each time the Cynosure tries to convince the Bellator to back down with remark about his parentage, he slashes forwards with his ridiculously oversized sword. Not entirely sure if this is going to be the final form of it, but it's just an idea.

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## UrsusArctos

Hi everyone. I'm a huge fan of the Mythos subsystem, and I am currently working on a Mythic Monk, and I am worried that it might occupy the same space as a Termach on paper. I'm thinking of using Perfection, as in the perfection of self, as an ideal for it and contrasting the flavor of a zen warrior to the angry barbarian, but both are unarmed and unarmored.

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## 7th son of sons

> Hi everyone. I'm a huge fan of the Mythos subsystem, and I am currently working on a Mythic Monk, and I am worried that it might occupy the same space as a Termach on paper. I'm thinking of using Perfection, as in the perfection of self, as an ideal for it and contrasting the flavor of a zen warrior to the angry barbarian, but both are unarmed and unarmored.


Plenty of mythos classes are "Unarmed" and "Unarmed". Off the top of my head, The Teramach, The Kathados, The Epifovian, and (to an extent) The Kreikiri, all fall into that distinction. So long as the overall flavor and feel of it is something new, you should be A-Ok.

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## spwack

The Kathodos is currently the Mythic rework of the Monk, with an elemental bend, while the Bellator focuses solely on combat. The Anakitos would so far be the closest thing to having 'Perfection' as an ideal, but fueled by arrogance. Nothing so far has any sense of humility, as far as I can tell.

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## Tanuki Tales

So, since as of late I'm more an idea man than an execution guy (unholy trinity of apathy, depression and a full time job making it very unlikely I'll ever Brew again...for the forseeable future), throwing this out there for someone to work with:

*Spoiler: Mythic Ranger*
Show





> I already had an idea that their Mythos would be split between 3 types; Hunter Mythos, Tamer Mythos and Slayer Mythos
> 
> Hunter Mythos would give them bonuses on Survival checks, Diplomacy for Gather Information, etc. for each they have, to represent being at passively getting better at pursuing prey
> Tamer Mythos would give them bonuses on interacting with a few creature types, to represent them at understanding, empathizing with and training their companions and other creatures
> Slayer Mythos would give them bonuses on Knowledge checks, Stealth checks and anything that helps them kill stuff






> Some ideas I had for actual Mythos/Excellencies would be: getting Favored Terrain as a Ranger, but you get half the bonus in all other Favored Terrains.
> Getting Hide in Plain Sight and Pass without a Trace, along with knowing when you're being tracked
> Getting a good bonus on Survival checks to track, ignoring penalties for weather and time conditions and casting Augury to know where/what your quarry plans to do next
> Automatically always find enough sustenance, shelter and other necessities, as long as the environ you're in could even possibly support life
> Animal Companion, beefed up, with options to have multiple companions (at lower effective levels for abilities) or use yourself (at a lower effective level)
> Use something like Locate Object for something you've both seen and injured
> Ignore defensive traits, based on Knowledge check results






*Spoiler: Mythic Shapeshifter*
Show





> Also just got an idea for a Mythic Shapeshifter, which would revolve around always adapting and being impossible to put down
> With a capstone Mythos being that if the character is killed by something that normally would make it deader than deadest dead, it would still come back, with some level loss, because it rebuilt itself from a parallel timeline where it DIDN'T die
> 
> So even a Teramach can't kill it ;P
> 
> Well, without trouble. I'm thinking the thing would just give it Negative levels each time it functions, so you COULD probably wipe it out, given enough effort


Just pondered this one up like...20 minutes ago, while the Mythic Ranger concepts I've been stewing on for a few days. Maybe it could also gain other Mythos' classes Mythos/Excellencies in some capacity or emulate them or something?

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## ThreadNecro5

It has been a while since I last checked in, but I am continuing with an idea I had a while back.

well, for a mythos I am planning I am planning to base mechanics on a feat I have herd of that grants the character ownership of an area of land that increases with level, can anyone tell me if such a feat actually exists?

For context it is for a mythos chain that essentially turns the character into a half-gold dragon whose breath weapon turns things into golden statues which can either be used for money, or animated and used as servants in a limited area.

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## Temotei

> well, for a mythos I am planning I am planning to base mechanics on a feat I have herd of that grants the character ownership of an area of land that increases with level, can anyone tell me if such a feat actually exists?


Landlord is the closest I can think of. It's in _Stronghold Builder's Guide_. Basically you get an allowance for land only and you buy the land with the allowance. The amount you get increases with level.

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## Jakman217

Hey guys, I love this mythos stuff.

Have you considered moving it from these forums onto a wiki of some kind. It would be a lot nicer on everyone in the long run, and would give better version control. If you want help with it I'd be glad to volunteer helping set it up.

If you're interested just message me and I'll get to work.

I've been wanting to try my hand at mythos classes also. I've been contemplating something like a more morally neutral Dinyomi as I love the concept but hate how it is nearly impossible to be a good character.

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## vasharanpaladin

Solution:  Never use D&D alignment.  Use the Color Wheel instead or, better still, let players define their own morality.

Ganondorf did nothing wrong.

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## ImperatorV

> I've been wanting to try my hand at mythos classes also. I've been contemplating something like a more morally neutral Dinyomi as I love the concept but hate how it is nearly impossible to be a good character.


I don't see anything about the Dinyomi that would force one to be non-good. Glory-hogging, yes. Prideful, yes. But neither of those are things a good character cannot be. 

Granted, if you want to play the fluff of some of the mythos to the fullest, being good would be challenging. But it's just that: a challenge. And who better to overcome a challenge, then the Dinyomi?

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## Jakman217

> Solution:  Never use D&D alignment.


Hah, no. I have no problem with the alignment system as it stands, only that people see it as a straight jacket to pidgeonhole themselves. I also don't default to subjective alignment as unless the setting is specifically made that way. There is an absolute objective morality to the D&D lore (even if DM's don't follow it perfectly). It could do with an additional 'positive' and 'negative' modifier, but that's adding detail that you could do yourself and I generally cover that with a lean to another alignment.


As to ImperatorV,  let me put it more bluntly. A Dinyomi who isn't an A-hole. Most of the Dinyomi's abilities are focused on being a glory-hogging, hubris infused (prideful is not strong enough of a word) jerk. It is far more difficult to be a nice guy. You may be able to squeeze a LG character out of it, but he's guaranteed to be a jerk. I want a character who can gain power without crushing his subjects and minions underfoot, one who can seek to give all who stand with him glory rather than take it for himself. The character wouldn't be 'THE CONQUEROR', but 'THE KING' or 'THE LEADER'. They wouldn't have a frail ego, or try to hog the glory, but would seek to be the best. He may have abilities dependent upon how other's see him, but it wouldn't penalize him. I think it's best to sumerize with a quote from Hemingway. 

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. 

This quote would be the heart of the character, and being a jerk would be entirely up to the player's methods rather than the abilities he's given.

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## ImperatorV

> As to ImperatorV,  let me put it more bluntly. A Dinyomi who isn't an A-hole. Most of the Dinyomi's abilities are focused on being a glory-hogging, hubris infused (prideful is not strong enough of a word) jerk. It is far more difficult to be a nice guy. You may be able to squeeze a LG character out of it, but he's guaranteed to be a jerk. I want a character who can gain power without crushing his subjects and minions underfoot, one who can seek to give all who stand with him glory rather than take it for himself. The character wouldn't be 'THE CONQUEROR', but 'THE KING' or 'THE LEADER'. They wouldn't have a frail ego, or try to hog the glory, but would seek to be the best. He may have abilities dependent upon how other's see him, but it wouldn't penalize him. I think it's best to sumerize with a quote from Hemingway. 
> 
> There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. 
> 
> This quote would be the heart of the character, and being a jerk would be entirely up to the player's methods rather than the abilities he's given.


So more of a King Arthur than an Alexander the Great, eh? That, indeed, might take another class. 

Also, I'm giving myself Fate/Zero flashbacks. Need to watch that again sometime.

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## Jakman217

> So more of a King Arthur than an Alexander the Great, eh? That, indeed, might take another class. 
> 
> Also, I'm giving myself Fate/Zero flashbacks. Need to watch that again sometime.


Absolutely, a leader you want to follow rather than have to follow. I think it would be fair to give some 'dominating' effects, but they would be for the darker side or emergencies.

I do have a class that follows this idea better, but it's not done like a mythos class and its basically a defensive bard/knight hybrid.

And that's a great series.

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## roko10

> Hey guys, I love this mythos stuff.
> 
> Have you considered moving it from these forums onto a wiki of some kind. It would be a lot nicer on everyone in the long run, and would give better version control. If you want help with it I'd be glad to volunteer helping set it up.
> 
> If you're interested just message me and I'll get to work.
> 
> I've been wanting to try my hand at mythos classes also. I've been contemplating something like a more morally neutral Dinyomi as I love the concept but hate how it is nearly impossible to be a good character.



The Agios  manages to fulfil that quota quite well.

In fact, though, that's the problem with Mythos classes. Out of the 15 made, only 1 is geared for Good. The others are either too full of themselves, downright geared for capital E Evil, or just focused on something not based on the alignment system.

----------


## Heliomance

Is there a newbie's guide to basic Mythos mechanics anywhere? I've looked at a few threads before, and haven't been able to make head or tails of them.

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## Temotei

> Is there a newbie's guide to basic Mythos mechanics anywhere? I've looked at a few threads before, and haven't been able to make head or tails of them.


Not as far as I can remember. Each class has the mechanics (generally just underneath the table), but what in particular is getting you?

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## Jakman217

> The Agios manages to fulfil that quota quite well.
> 
> In fact, though, that's the problem with Mythos classes. Out of the 15 made, only 1 is geared for Good. The others are either too full of themselves, downright geared for capital E Evil, or just focused on something not based on the alignment system.


I actually like that about most of the mythos classes, but I feel it's a bit unbalanced in that it's so difficult to play a good or nice character with these. I may play evil more than good, but playing a good character just feels right sometimes. Good in that they could be actually praised as heroes without any massive horrendous flaws.


But again I'll repeat my real question for the powers that be in this group. If I made a wiki for this collection would you guys use it? I'd gladly help you all with it, set it up, and help maintain it. It wolud make thinks so much nicer for everyone involved.

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## Heliomance

> Not as far as I can remember. Each class has the mechanics (generally just underneath the table), but what in particular is getting you?


I don't remember offhand. It's been a while since I looked. I just remember looking at some of the classes and realising it was a whole subsystem, and that so far as I could tell the classes assumed knowledge of the subsystem.

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## Temotei

> I don't remember offhand. It's been a while since I looked. I just remember looking at some of the classes and realising it was a whole subsystem, and that so far as I could tell the classes assumed knowledge of the subsystem.


Each class describes how it works. In the Bellator's entry, for example, the pieces you'd want to look at would be "The Iron Mythos" and "Mythos Known" for the Mythos themselves. For Excellencies, you'd look at "A Warrior's Excellence," and for the class features other than Mythos and Excellencies, "Equipment Mastery."

Basically:

1. All that stuff about stories, Lawgivers, Gods, and Titans is fluff. If it distracts you, glaze over it until you see anything resembling mechanics. If you're interested in the fluff, go here and here. It's based on the Exalted system.
2. Mythos are abilities you acquire at a rate shown in the class table. The Bellator knows two Mythos at 1st level, and selects those two from the list of Exceptional Mythos in post #2.
3. Mythos are generally at-will abilities, though there are exceptions. Sometimes they grant feats, sometimes they grant new abilities, and sometimes they improve on your previous abilities by giving more options. Generally, a Mythos will have a profound effect on how you play a Mythos character.
4. Excellencies are abilities you acquire at a rate shown in the class table. The Bellator knows a single Excellency at 1st level, and selects that one from the list of Excellencies in post #5.
5. Excellencies tend to have less pronounced effects compared to Mythos. They serve to supplement a Mythos class's Mythos with bonuses and sometimes new abilities that are simply not active enough to be Mythos. Generally, an Excellency will have a relatively minor effect on how you play a Mythos character.
6. A Mythos class has at least one way to gain "Mythos points." A Bellator gains Mythos points by training and destroying equipment through this training. The equipment's value is translated directly into Mythos points. Some Mythos grant additional methods for acquiring Mythos points.
7. Mythos points may be spent on gaining additional Mythos or Excellencies. The costs are given under "Mythos Known" and, in the Bellator's case, "A Warrior's Excellency." Spending Mythos points is a voluntary action, and so they need not be spent immediately upon receiving them.
8. Each Mythos class also receives a number of features separate from Mythos and Excellencies. The Bellator receives "Equipment Mastery," which prevents fatigue from sleeping in armor and grants Quick Draw as a bonus feat at 1st level. Generally, one of these class features will have a smaller effect on how you play a Mythos character than Excellencies will (but should not be ignored--think the warblade's "battle" features).
EDIT: In case you started reading my post as soon as I posted it, I added a couple more points on gaining Mythos and Excellencies over and above the class table's granted number.

In addition to all of the above, a couple of classes have one or two additional caveats. The Kathodos, for example, has Mythos associated with the four classical elements and additional [Internal] or [External] tags, which have a few rules associated with them. Make sure you read each entry in detail before moving on to Mythos.

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## Kymme

> But again I'll repeat my real question for the powers that be in this group. If I made a wiki for this collection would you guys use it? I'd gladly help you all with it, set it up, and help maintain it. It wolud make thinks so much nicer for everyone involved.


I would definitely use something like that.  Also, I'd be happy to provide assistance in setting up such a wiki.  I don't really know how one goes about making one, but I'm willing to learn (plus I'm pretty good at copy-pasting stuff).   :Small Smile:

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## Jakman217

I'm mostly asking to build the wiki for everyone's sake, creators and users alike, rather than doing it and assuming support. I'd rather not be that guy.

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## Temotei

I don't have any objections. I probably won't use it but my stuff (the Askopar, Quality-Muting Prowess) is free to go on there and I'll be sure to update it on the wiki whenever I do updates on GitP.

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## ThreadNecro5

> Landlord is the closest I can think of. It's in _Stronghold Builder's Guide_. Basically you get an allowance for land only and you buy the land with the allowance. The amount you get increases with level.


Yes, that was the feat I was trying to remember. Now unfortunately I cannot find prices for land anywhere, but thank you anyway.

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## Jakman217

If there's no problems then I'll get to setting the wiki up. I'll try to keep it to those who've agreed, but I may mess up. I'll put up a link to it as soon as I get the main page up.

Also, whatever happened to the Future Mythos classes on the compendium? The one that links to the imgur with all the pictures and quotes of later classes. Are these out of date or 'the dream' to complete eventually? Because some of these seem closer to the idea I've been looking for, but seem to have already been put up and potentially have had their names changed, or have been forgotten.

----------


## Xefas

> Also, whatever happened to the Future Mythos classes on the compendium? The one that links to the imgur with all the pictures and quotes of later classes. Are these out of date or 'the dream' to complete eventually? Because some of these seem closer to the idea I've been looking for, but seem to have already been put up and potentially have had their names changed, or have been forgotten.


I think my current average is something like one full Mythos class every ~4 months. Based on 4th Edition's lifespan, you probably won't be seeing some of those until 6th Edition rolls around.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## DracoDei

Note to self: Explain "Cruel Mercy" excellency I invented for Teramach.




> In fact, though, that's the problem with Mythos classes. Out of the 15 made, only 1 is geared for Good. The others are either too full of themselves, downright geared for capital E Evil, or just focused on something not based on the alignment system.


FWIW, the Phileotheysia's fluff leans towards Good, although doing it as LE is not too hard, and anyone who places value on their comrades isn't to hard to justify. So basically, anyone but the most die-hard of Chaotic Evil shouldn't be too hard to make work with the class?

I guess I will count that as an incentive towards actually writing it up?



> If there's no problems then I'll get to setting the wiki up. I'll try to keep it to those who've agreed, but I may mess up. I'll put up a link to it as soon as I get the main page up.


When/If I get the class published feel free to copy over anything mythos-related I make.

Plus any content I make for other people's classes etc.

----------


## Jakman217

I'm currently trying to get to 10 posts to get post the link but I've got the home page started and got to the start of the mythos on the Askopar. So I'll post the link in a bit and you can spread that around. 

To the other creators who've not responded, may I copy your stuff over so it can be edited and better consolidated and organized for everyone?

----------


## Jakman217

Here's the link to the home page of the Compendium. I've finished up the Askopar as well and there is a link to it there.
http://mythos-compendium.wikia.com/w...mpendium_Wikia

It's nothing too fancy, but hopefully it will improve at a decent pace.

----------


## 7th son of sons

I'm all for having my stuff on the wiki. And don't worry y'all, the mythoc not-really-a-bad-guy is coming. Soon

----------


## Jakman217

> I'm all for having my stuff on the wiki.


Thank you good sir, I'll be moving your material over post-haste.



> And don't worry y'all, the mythoc not-really-a-bad-guy is coming. Soon


And another thank you, as the current ones are good, but a bit similar.

----------


## Jakman217

Boom. Dinyomi, Done.

http://mythos-compendium.wikia.com/w...notify=created

Edit: Woops. Fixed.

----------


## DracoDei

Thought I would give some commentary on the Teramach in terms of one of the characters from my campaign (which I have now placed on indefinite hiatus due to extremely slow posting by players).

Okay, what you need to know about my campaign is "that the forces of Good" are SCARY. Fight them "clean"? They will kill you unless you surrender (no surprise there). Fight them "dirty"? They will take you alive and then force one of your allies who lawfully surrendered to torture you to death (or else share your fate at the hands of TWO MORE lawfully surrendered allies).

So when TwentyFold wanted to play a Lawful Good Teramach, I decided that his character would need a new Excellency to allow him to deal subdual damage, regardless of what his other Mythos and Excellencies said. Otherwise it would have been too easy an out from one of the central philosophical conflicts of the setting. I called it "Cruel Mercy" although TwentyFold apparently picked different names for it.

Here is his character sheet if anyone cares.
Tzunzaku (Non-Raging)




> Boom. Dinyomi, Done.
> 
> http://mythos-compendium.wikia.com/w...edit&section=1


Your link goes to an "edit" not a "view"...
EDIT: And you have fixed it now.

----------


## Jakman217

Epifovian and Mythic Clone have been added

http://mythos-compendium.wikia.com/w...mpendium_Wikia

----------


## Rogthnor

So I stared the Mythic Bard a little while ago, in terms of exalted he's heavily inspired by the rahksha. Any way I can get it added to the WIP list? 
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-quot-(Mythos)

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## Jakman217

> So I stared the Mythic Bats a little while ago, in terms of exalted he's heavily inspired by the rahksha. Any way I can get it added to the WIP list? 
> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-quot-(Mythos)


I can put on the wiki if you want.

----------


## Rogthnor

> I can put on the wiki if you want.


I'd appreciate that. Thank you!

----------


## Jakman217

If you want to one up me and work on it there yourself, go ahead. It should be open to you.

----------


## Rogthnor

Thanks.  I won't be able to get to it until after finals, but I plan to start working on it again next week

----------


## Lanth Sor

So me and xefas were talking about how it would be nice to do the wiki thing but how the formatting would be a pain a few months ago. So I'm glad your interested in starting it. Ima try to put the Agios in but feel free to update formatting cause i don't know it very well. 


Feel free to add any of my content.

Also I need some inspiration for fantastic Agios Mythos as is there are too many weapon focused ones and not enough generic. What level should a mount be?

----------


## DracoDei

> What level should a mount be?


Don't even recall what the Agios is supposed to be, so take it with a grain of salt when I note that a Druid can have a horse as their animal companion from first level, and a Paladin gets their special mount at 5th. You could use those as your reference points.

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## Lanth Sor

Agios is the Mythic Defender/Protector/Guardian take your pick but part of his stick is "Knight in Shining Armor" other part is tyrant that protects his property jealously but i think the latter one is mostly overlooked as the class sounds so goodie to shoes.

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## ZaneShadow

Hey, I'm working on a Mythic Commoner class. It's pretty bare bones right now, but I'll take any criticism and advice offered.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...8#post20196988

----------


## Xefas

I've been having a little extra free time at night lately, so I'm doing a choose your own adventure thread. Exalted setting, no setting/rules knowledge needed. Because of Exalted's influence on Mythos classes, I figured some of you might be interested in participating. 

Doing my Dresden Files one was hella fun. I considered starting it up again but I think the thread was auto-scrubbed due to age or something. I can't find it. Anyway... this'll be fun, too. Probably.

----------


## Lanth Sor

Started paying a tinker character so I'll be doing some more random work on the tech system and when I get everything nailed down ill update the Efev̱réti̱s with mechanics based on the new system. For everyone interested in looking at where I'm at/keeping an eye on how they shape up. Click here

----------


## DracoDei

> Hey, I'm working on a Mythic Commoner class. It's pretty bare bones right now, but I'll take any criticism and advice offered.
> 
> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...8#post20196988


Interesting concept, but I think calling it the Mythic Commoner is misleading.

*Spoiler: Expansion on this explaination, cross-posted from the class's thread*
Show

When I saw "mythic commoner" I was thinking of something somewhat paradoxical with the concept of "mythic"... a character somehow able to weather any storm, but at the same time locked into never strongly influencing events and DEFINITELY never taking center stage except in very specific "lower deck episode"/"lets see the drama of one of the people just trying to avoid being incidentally stepped on by Godzilla"* sorts of circumstances.

*I think the movie "Cloverfield" might have worked this way? Maybe also the more recent "War of the Worlds" movie? Not sure...

----------


## Jakman217

> Hey, I'm working on a Mythic Commoner class. It's pretty bare bones right now, but I'll take any criticism and advice offered.
> 
> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...8#post20196988


I'm with DracoDei here. A mythic commoner isn't quite the right name. It would be like making a mythos class based on The Fool from the Mythos Lore, a character who never got anywhere. I think it would be more accurate to call it a mythic rogue, though that name is already taken.

How about mythic everyman? I can't really think of a better name of it but its would be based more around luck and a humble air rather than how super awesome you they are. More in line with you idea I believe. Calling it the Common Mythos sounds about right though.

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## Lanth Sor

Been working on my fantastic mythos for the agios as there seems to be too few options for things that have nothing to do with swinging a weapon. Bolded information is new or modified. Line through is deleted

*Spoiler: Leadership mythos*
Show


*Shining Shield Legionnaires*
*Prerequisite:* -

Standing avast the bastion word of the demon horde came catapulting down the causeway as the forward scout returned. Young Sigmund's face turned grim. "Why so glum?", the mountain of a man beside him inquired. Sigmund looked to Zio, "We stand no chance against the demons we have to few men." Turning with warmth in his smile Zio declared "But you have me their is no need to worry." Sigmund looked to the massive dragon man, "You are but one man you cannot possibly hold against their entire army." Zio bellowed out a mighty laugh, "Who ever said I was alone?" his tone shifted as he pointed at the horizon. A great peel of a horn broke the silence of the country side as glare caught a shield. Then an entire wall of gleaming knights clad it silver plates. Banners waving above denoting allegiance to Zio. "I am never alone." he replied looking down upon young Sigmund


The agios gains Leadership with no limit on cohorts. However, they take a -2 to leadership score for determining cohort level. *They may not have a effective leadership socre less than 2 If the agios's effective leadership score for determining level is 2 or less they may not gain any more cohorts.*

*Advanced*
_Defenders Boon:_ The agios grants each cohort access to either Ardent Shield Aegis or Adroit Blade Parry. The agios may not grant a mythos they do not know. The cohort does not actually know the mythos and must still take it to meet any requirements. 
_Guardsman's First Lesson:_ The agios grants each cohort access to the constant guardian and dutiful guardian feats. The feats are bonus feats that are only available for use they do not actually have these feats unless they purchased them with their own levels or through their own class features.
_Teaching The Masses:_ The agios grants each cohort access to Golden Rule Reciprocation. The agios must have Golden Rule Reciprocation. The cohort does not know the mythos and must still take it to gain anything that requires the mythos.
*"Peel of the Guardian": The agios gains the ability to call any number of followers and cohorts to him, regardless of distance. Calling them takes 1 minute and they appear out of line of sight of the agios, no closer than 1 mile away. Upon completion the determined cohorts and followers are teleported to the nearest location in a direction the agios specifies, in formation fully equipped. Specified cohorts and followers may deny the call, but the agios instantly knows if they do. This ability may only be used once per month initially. When the agios gains access to Legendary Mythos this becomes usable once per month. When the agios gains access to Exalted Mythos they may use it once per day.*



*Spoiler: New Fantastic Mythos*
Show


Still working on it ill remove this line when done

*Steadfast Fortification*
*Prerequisite:* -

The agios can as a standard action create a Aura of Impairment 30ft. Enemies cannot magically enter the Aura of Impairment, and all attempts to do so end with the enemy landing in the nearest legal space between them and their target space.

----------


## JKTrickster

Hey!

So does anyone watch One Punch Man here? Particularly looking to see if Xefas jumped on that bandwagon yet.

You know how a big thing with the Bellator class was difficulty adapting it to the higher tiers of powers? 

Essentially, it was hard to imagine what an "Exalted" Bellator meant because the idea of "Conflict" was just harder to grasp. Things like Anger or the Elements or Perfection lend themselves easily to grand powerful abilities with flavor attached. For a while the Bellator didn't even have a Shintai ability. And even the one it has now, while very flavorful, is hardly a match for the other Shintai abilities that exist. Most importantly, the flavor of the Shintai mentions that it is tainted - not really a pure spirit of Iron, but one that is tainted with too much blood. That's great flavor but it falls short of a "pure" Shintai that encapsulates the meaning of being a "Bellator". 

Trying to extend Conflict into the higher levels ran into problems - it either ran too close to Teramach (being overall violence and anger) or ran too mundane (being the Mythic Fighter ultimately limited it in some way). After all, what does it mean to be the narrative equivalent of all Conflict, everywhere? How does that lend to interesting abilities that can affect the world as a whole? Even the Random Mythos document honestly does not have a lot in terms of "unique" takes on this idea. There's only one working Exalted Mythos (based off of Unlimited Blade Works from Archer in the Fate series). There are some Legendary Mythos, but they are just Fighting Style Plus (improvements on previous fighting styles). None of this is really breaking new ground here or introducing ways where Conflict can change the landscape.

Solution: One Punch Man.

Now if you have not watched the anime, I won't spoil anything here. But the protagonist has the remarkable ability to defeat anything in a single punch. And he despises it - he hates how powerful he is. 

In fact, he doesn't really want to save the world (he even comments how he has had negligible impact on the world as a whole, and has not changed anything for the better). More than anything, he wants someone to represent an *actual challenge* to him. He craves the type of fight where he can go all out and just _barely_ win by the breadth of his hair (incidentally, he has none). He spent years training to be strongest, but now he regrets how strong he has gotten. Nothing challenges him anymore, and he feels as if his emotions are all draining away. Anger, happiness, terror, elation - he starting to lose access to those feelings. 

In the first episode (minor spoilers), he has a dream sequence where 70% of the world population is destroyed by terrible invaders. That's a scary amount of people dead. You would have to wipe all of the populations of the *top 25 countries* to get that death toll. 

It was the best possible dream for the our protagonist because it meant he finally had *something worth fighting against*. Sure he wasn't exactly _happy_ that so many people died, but he was *very happy* to finally meet opponents that he could be challenged by. Because he was getting _bored_. 


Wouldn't that be the best exemplification of Conflict? Not someone who ever wants to stop fighting. Not someone who wants to fight for something. But someone who just wants to fight....for the sake of feeling that rush. They don't even want to win easily - because if they do win too easily, it wasn't a real conflict at all. Therefore, I think it would be possible to use One Punch Man as a sort of inspiration for a Legendary Shintai ability for the Bellator. 

Not something that is tainted by blood (the protagonist kills things, but he finds no inherent joy out of it, and shows mercy when needed). But a Shintai that forces someone to always look for the greatest challenge - always looking for the next fight. Always looking to perpetuate Conflict on a grand scale.

Maybe they attract enemies of a higher CR, as the Mythos of the Bellator itself demands tougher and tougher enemies to overcome. Or maybe it drains the Bellator of all emotions and personality outside of battle, so that the Bellator only really feels alive when they are fighting with every fiber of their soul. Something to that effect?

~~

What do you guys think? And apologies if I haven't explained One Punch Man thoroughly enough - it really is something you have to see for yourself.

----------


## spwack

Ding ding ding! Have you discovered the Tiger-General Sovereign by 7th son of sons? It's on the compendium page, under Bellator additions. In particular, the final advanced manifestation of "Flowering Ubiquitous Body-of-Conflict Edification", an Immemorial Mythos, is "Insurmountable One-With-The-Eternal Eclipsement of Existence", and it might be what you are looking for. But read the whole thing. It is a nice piece Mythos. Someone should light the Xefas-signal, see what his opinion of it is, but I really like it.

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## Kymme

> What do you guys think?.


You're on to something.  One thing I like about every Shintai is how crazy gamechanging they are, and _this_... this is gamechanging.

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## DracoDei

Could be good?

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## Defiantnight

So, um... what IS a shintai? I keep seeing them referenced and for people asking the creator to make one.

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## spwack

> So, um... what IS a shintai? I keep seeing them referenced and for people asking the creator to make one.


Game-changing Mythos. Usually have an extraordinary benefit, matched by an extraordinary downside, both linking to the core concepts the class conveys. My favorite is the Teramachs 'Untamed Apocalypse Shintai'. When you kill something, you gain Regeneration/- for 1 turn, rendering you immune to lethal damage, but the only actions you can take must be related to murder and destruction. It's that limitation that makes it a Shintai.

----------


## Defiantnight

> Game-changing Mythos. Usually have an extraordinary benefit, matched by an extraordinary downside, both linking to the core concepts the class conveys. My favorite is the Teramachs 'Untamed Apocalypse Shintai'. When you kill something, you gain Regeneration/- for 1 turn, rendering you immune to lethal damage, but the only actions you can take must be related to murder and destruction. It's that limitation that makes it a Shintai.


Ah, that makes more sense now. :smallgrin:
Thank you for the quick response!

I'm trying to get a DM for a (probably evil-aligned) Mythos game, and I've never played or seen played a Mythos class because they're so world-wrecking. Any tips, either on the proper way to chant for Summon DM or for using Mythos classes in general?

----------


## spwack

> Ah, that makes more sense now. :smallgrin:
> Thank you for the quick response!
> 
> I'm trying to get a DM for a (probably evil-aligned) Mythos game, and I've never played or seen played a Mythos class because they're so world-wrecking. Any tips, either on the proper way to chant for Summon DM or for using Mythos classes in general?


Tell me when you find one. Also, have you tried O-negative blood sacrifices? Worth a shot.

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## Lanth Sor

I can DM a game, I run off roll20. The fair warning is I'm almost 100% off the cuff so don't expect anything pre-planed. I will have a few major events that happen in the background if you don't purse them. But my general DM style is welcome to the world what are you doing. Generic explanation ask for clarification. Open Sat, Mon, Wed, Fri.

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## spwack

GIB GIB GIB. How many slots do you have open? A friend and I tried to join a game as Mythic characters, but that seems to have flopped. We have a Teramach and a Jagannatha both at level 11, but any level is fine.

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## Defiantnight

Sent you a PM about the game, Lanth.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, we should probably move on  :Small Red Face:

----------


## pieman2945

> -Snip-


If anyone's read the marvelous web serial Worm, the whole One Punch Man idea gives me a thought

*Spoiler: MASSIVE Worm Spoilers*
Show

"You needed a worthy opponent."  The idea is like the same thing as Eidolon's inadvertent creation of the Endbringers.  He created massive, city-breaking kaiju to challenge his massive powers.

----------


## Lanth Sor

Nor worms for me. 

So one person brought up a couple of classes that seem to lend themselves to Mythos classes not made yet. One that was brought to my attention kinda fits with the Archikos but is basically Elsa from frozen as a 12 lvl class. But i could see equal value in making a separate "Ice Witch" class for it having equal merit. What do you guys think?

----------


## Vauron

I can't say that 'Ice Witch" feels like it is capable of supporting a full mythos class. 'Witch' might, but 'I wanna play Elsa using the mythos system*' sounds like either a supplemental mythos like the races or templates. Can you even come up with 7 other characters that count as an 'Ice Witch'? Sure, there is whats-her-name from The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe, but thats just two characters. I guess you could throw in the Unseelie Queens from the Dresden Files, but 'Ice Witch' still feels too narrow. 

Maybe put together some mythos for the Kathados? The Kathados already can do ice manipulation, so the main thing that Elsa did that I don't think the Kathados could do yet would be dressmaking, weather manipulation, and building that castle.

*The desire to play Elsa in DND is pretty well served by the Frostwind Virago monster class.

----------


## ThreadNecro5

haven't been keeping up with the class but I can rate how these mythos look individually.




> Been working on my fantastic mythos for the agios as there seems to be too few options for things that have nothing to do with swinging a weapon. Bolded information is new or modified. Line through is deleted
> 
> *Spoiler: Leadership mythos*
> Show
> 
> 
> *Shining Shield Legionnaires*
> *Prerequisite:* -
> 
> ...


So its leadership with extra but weaker cohorts and potentially buffing them or gaining the ability to concentrate a lot of bodies in one area, seems fair for a mythos and the reduced cohort level means steps are taken to avoid assorted cohort abuse.

from the wording I can pick up this is a fantastic mythos and the 'peel of the guardian' needs access to legendary mythos?




> *Spoiler: New Fantastic Mythos*
> Show
> 
> 
> Still working on it ill remove this line when done
> 
> *Steadfast Fortification*
> *Prerequisite:* -
> 
> The agios can as a standard action create a Aura of Impairment 30ft. Enemies cannot magically enter the Aura of Impairment, and all attempts to do so end with the enemy landing in the nearest legal space between them and their target space.


Nice ability, opens up some interesting tactical options.


As a question for anyone reading this, I have a list of banner characters for the class I am slowly working on (based on money and overall greed) that I would like an opinion on the characters picked, as well as any better suggestions anyone has. Also I need another character to add so suggestions are appreciated:
*Spoiler*
Show

Greed- Diablo
Greed- Full Metal Alchemist

Scrooge McDuck- ?

Larfleeze- DC Comics

Smaug- The Hobbit

Wario- Mario Franchise

Oryx - Destiny

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## Lanth Sor

> So its leadership with extra but weaker cohorts and potentially buffing them or gaining the ability to concentrate a lot of bodies in one area, seems fair for a mythos and the reduced cohort level means steps are taken to avoid assorted cohort abuse.


I was thinking of adding a sub line requiring them to have heavy armor prof and tower shield prof or something similar as its intended that they are an extension of the character's ideals and not just random people following him.




> from the wording I can pick up this is a fantastic mythos and the 'peel of the guardian' needs access to legendary mythos?


No legendary is only require for it to be usable 1/week.




> Nice ability, opens up some interesting tactical options.


It may be inspired by new poppy.


Vauron I see plenty of options and as for characters, Elsa, Iceman, Killerfrost, The Snow Queen(of the orignial Fabel), Gray Fullbuster(Fairy Tail anime), Jack Frost, Lissandra(LOL), Jadis the White Witch, Kuzan(One Piece).

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## DracoDei

> As a question for anyone reading this, I have a list of banner characters for the class I am slowly working on (based on money and overall greed) that I would like an opinion on the characters picked, as well as any better suggestions anyone has. Also I need another character to add so suggestions are appreciated:
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Greed- Diablo
> Greed- Full Metal Alchemist
> 
> Scrooge McDuck- ?
> 
> ...


Well, MAYBE Rarity of My Little Pony? Probably not though since while she does have that as one of her defining characteristics, she is usually more interested in social standing than material goods and she is a rich dichotomy due to her core virtue being Generosity (I've heard at least two theories about how the two interact for her I think).

Will discuss more if requested, but for now I just want to get the idea down before I forget it and then go back to relaxing for bed (I have sleep issues).

----------


## vasharanpaladin

> As a question for anyone reading this, I have a list of banner characters for the class I am slowly working on (based on money and overall greed) that I would like an opinion on the characters picked, as well as any better suggestions anyone has. Also I need another character to add so suggestions are appreciated:
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Greed- Diablo
> Greed- Full Metal Alchemist
> 
> Scrooge McDuck- ?
> 
> ...


Ultra/Super Greed from The Binding of Isaac, Lex Luthor (deputized with an Orange ring during the Blackest Night, should tell you something), any fricking Nopon from Xenoblade.

Honorable mention goes to one Komachi Onozuka of Touhou Project fame, who actually uses money in her danmaku patterns.

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## Allnightmask

When you said greed and wealth the first guy that came to mind was Shirojiro Bertoni from Horizon in the Middle of Nowhere. He can use his wealth and command of prices to rent strength and abilities from others. It's pretty intriguing to me.

----------


## Adam1949

If you've ever seen Kill La Kill, Takarada is a hilarious example: he's literally so rich he sends his goons out with _money as ammunition_.

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## khadgar567

> Scrooge McDuck- ?


If you don't know uncle scrooge term comes from the same son of a duck whose only work is how to become more richer than richest duck in freaking world( which is him by the way) by the way he is from Disney where the moana, lilo pelekai, ventus and a death star worth of characters comes from

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## vasharanpaladin

> If you don't know uncle scrooge term comes from the same son of a duck whose only work is how to become more richer than richest duck in freaking world( which is him by the way) by the way he is from Disney where the moana, lilo pelekai, ventus and a death star worth of characters comes from


I believe you mean _A Christmas Carol,_ thank you very much.  The use of "scrooge" to refer to a pernicious miser vastly predates Disney and his misbegotten brood.  :Small Annoyed:

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## roko10

Gray Mann is also a good example. His robots run on money.

----------


## The Tygre

If we're still suggesting wealthy characters, there's always Choji Suitengu from the anime Speed Grapher. He's the most exorbitantly wealthy anime villain that I know, though not as flashy about it as Takarada.

----------


## Defiantnight

Don't mind me, popping in for another Mythos question.

What are the assumed starting age levels and starting wealth of Mythos classes (specifically the Epifovian)?

----------


## DracoDei

> Don't mind me, popping in for another Mythos question.
> 
> What are the assumed starting age levels and starting wealth of Mythos classes (specifically the Epifovian)?


Off the cuff, without looking at anything but the Epifovian (and that not for very long).

*Age:*
Two ideas here.

1.)
Given that they are based around having a piece of an eternal story welded to your soul (right?) put most of them on the "Youngest" column along with the Sorcerer, Barbarian, and Rogue. Here is a link to the table I am referring to on the very small chance you actually need it.

2.)
Put them with the classes they most resemble where such exists. All others on the "Youngest" column unless their fluff implies otherwise. 

*Wealth:*
I'd put them with the class that most resembles them as far as equipment that is iconic for them to have or that goes with their skills. Well, except for the wealth-based on which should be on a par with the Aristrocrat, if not higher... or down with the monk if you want to go for "from rags to riches"... maybe that should be an "at character creation only" excellency for them or something?

Teramach is probably down with Monk if I had to guess (needs neither armor nor weapon, not an easy part of society so the fluff of having few 'creature comforts' like a tent and bedroll fits).

Bellator would be with Fighter.

Epifovian goes with the rogue or maybe slightly lower. They have Open Lock on their skill list (and thus should have enough wealth to be able to afford a set off thieves tools if they decide to start off with points in that), and the same light armor+no shield thing as the rogue. The major difference is that the rogue gets proficiency in hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword, most of which are more expensive than simple weapons.

----------


## Temotei

The Askopar starts with 5d4x10 gp at a sorcerer's age.

----------


## Bdrone

I've been digging about in Mythos off an' on for sometime now. MY GOODNESS the wonderful stuff goin' on here. I just have to say well done who is and has worked on this, and continues to make it reality-tearingly awesome.

Each class around here blows me away in their own ways, but right now if i were to build one, its gotta be between a mounted Bellator with a healthy amount of Archery involved (wish there was a in mythos way to get some allies, but when your THAT awesome already there's limits), or an Epifovean just going nuts with a swarm of tentacle attacks and some extra help from some spine manipulated pets. The Kreikiri, Dinyomi, Askopar, and Jagannatha also stand out, even if they aren't really my style, just because of the sheer scale of what they could do or how they made me giggle with glee- i kept myself busy just trying to figure out how many bodies i would need as a Kreikiri, figuring out how to run a minion focused Dinyomi with its state mechanics, trying to leverage the Askopar's clean up the wall dash mobility design with how id play at combat normally, or balking at the awesomeness of a Jagannatha and their ability to raise an Abyssal force, though wishing they had a brass beast to ride, Juggernauts of Khorne style.

sadly, im most at home at a distance, so a lot of the combat in the Mythos doesn't at it's best for me from what i've seen. so, I guess a question to ask is- in your opinions, what are your ways to make either a brutal ranged combatant or a SUPERBLY fast and mobile one? the epifovean and Bellator are what i hit on, but what other ideas do you all see? maybe im missin' something... i just don't feel right in standard melee range.

Also, i can't wait to see whats to come. im actually quite interested in one day seeing the Epicurean (particularly) and the Epistemian should they make an appearance. I really wonder how they will play out...

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## Vauron

Well, as the Kathados is technically making unarmed attacks, not ranged attacks, you can use Elemental-Fisted Pugilist Style and all other unarmed attack boosters with Land-Strike Wrath to trivially make full attacks at range. Granted, the range isn't that far at level one, but it grows as you level. Meditating on the Elements would let you go for a fire imbalance and let you add (INT) to damage, provide Power Attack, and make your blows count as two-handed weapons for power attack. If the fan-made mythos are available, then against undead you could make use of Detritus Devouring Conflagration to increase your fire damage by 50%.


On an unrelated note, how does Omnicapable Human Spirit Ignition work with mythos classes? Specifically, the ability to buy mythos. Lets say that a human Kathados has taken OHSI and picks Teramach. Using the Excellence in Monstrosity class feature, the Kathados purchases two copies of Inhuman Constitution Proliferation. Then, the Kathados changes the class that OHSI grants. Does the Kathados still have the +6 to con? Could OHSI basically be used as a floating set of the Broken [Patron] Amalgam line?

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## DracoDei

Quick and dirty post, please tell me if I'm being socially inappropriate on any points...

Would the three homebrew ranged Disciplines that Age of Warriors came up with do the trick for a Bellator? I THINK this is the final version we ended up with...

Also, what sort of Mythic Elementalist can't shoot fire a hundred feet from his finger-tips? I mean warlocks can pull that off from first level I think (well the 100' part, the "fire" part is going to take more levels).

Getting back to Bellators and perhaps maneuvers, it seemed like the two Bellator players I had in my game were saying the class really felt starved for mythos or manifestations or something... like you basically HAD to spend a bunch of XPs on additional things to make a viable build. I may have mentioned this before, but I'm mentioning it again in case I didn't. We were at level 4, and I had given everyone about 200 XPs above the amount required to hit that level. I can probably dig up the posts and/or Skype text chat logs in question if requested?

I think my Phileotheysia may end up sorta the same way, but they have a special trick where they don't actually lose XPs when revivified, they just get put in a separate pool that can only be used for extra Phileotheysia purchases. Which really helps at higher levels, although I'd really like any input that people can provide as guidelines to suggest to GMs starting a campaigns at the levels where it becomes plausible for the overall system that a character would have been _Raise_d at least once. I suppose that the question of "How lethal is my setting anyway?" is a good one, but I think the bigger problem may be that GMs may just be turned off by the whole concept... plus for all I know a lack of enough mythos to get the job done won't be a problem by those levels, if it ever was.

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## VoodooPaladin

The Bellator is kind of thematically built around giving up exorbitant amounts of time, money, and energy to become a really awesome fighter. Punching Death in the face isn't a cheap prospect for a dude who's technically only human.




> what are your ways to make either a brutal ranged combatant or a SUPERBLY fast and mobile one?


For a Bellator, if you can find a nice ranged combat discipline and a mobility-focused discipline, you can slur their movesets together into the hit-and-run fighting style you want. In lieu of that, the Swooping Raptor school seems like the right idea, but it could use an editor. Since you said you like mounted archery, remember that with Heroic Panoply-Forging Puissance a Bellator can bang out simple items like Horseshoes of Speed in an afternoon, so you can get Mongolian all over your enemies with trivial effort.

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## DracoDei

> The Bellator is kind of thematically built around giving up exorbitant amounts of time, money, and energy to become a really awesome fighter. Punching Death in the face isn't a cheap prospect for a dude who's technically only human.


Okay. I was just passing along the raw data. Since you say it is a feature, rather than a bug, I will believe you.

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## VoodooPaladin

> Okay. I was just passing along the raw data. Since you say it is a feature, rather than a bug, I will believe you.


Well, that's not to say I wouldn't love to see Xefas put out more Bellator Mythos. And I don't actually know Xefas' design intent; I didn't ask him.

I don't like to shut down critique without throwing down some of my own so... the Olethrofex feels flimsy to me. It might just be that it's trying to cover a lot of potential design space, but it feels off. I can't really isolate why it feels that way, since every Mythos feels fine individually: full of contempt for life and living in all sorts of different ways. It's like the Olethrofex as a class isn't integrating right with itself in my head. It's not how I can't see how its pieces add together, it's just... got a really scattershot approach, in a way that the Teramach before it didn't have.

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## spwack

> Well, that's not to say I wouldn't love to see Xefas put out more Bellator Mythos. And I don't actually know Xefas' design intent; I didn't ask him.
> 
> I don't like to shut down critique without throwing down some of my own so... the Olethrofex feels flimsy to me. It might just be that it's trying to cover a lot of potential design space, but it feels off. I can't really isolate why it feels that way, since every Mythos feels fine individually: full of contempt for life and living in all sorts of different ways. It's like the Olethrofex as a class isn't integrating right with itself in my head. It's not how I can't see how its pieces add together, it's just... got a really scattershot approach, in a way that the Teramach before it didn't have.


Well, it says only 50% complete, so that can't help. Also, it is specifically designed to have three main streams, Death, Undeath and Oblivion. The Shintai is pretty much entirely dependent on the DM, which is a pain. After reading Xefas' description of how it's supposed to work, I actually like it a lot more, but I never got that sense from the actual mythos.

Just my 2c.

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## Slawth13

So I showed up and briefly mentioned in the last thread about my work on a Mythic Psion, the Setgetzen (though as it's evolved it's really become more of the Mythic Telepath).  I had fully intended to talk some more about it and comment on some other people's works then, but real life came around and started kicking my butt.  But I am here again, and wanting some opinions on a particular struggle I'm having.

I'm basically taking the Collective class feature of a lot of DSP's stuff and stacking Mythos on top of it for various Mythos.  For those unfamiliar with DSP's psionics, the Collective feature allows you to basically act like a psychic WiFi hub for a number of people determined by your Int modifier plus your class level.

*Spoiler: Collective feature*
Show

The Setgetzen learns to use psionic power to connect willing minds through an internal network that strengthens their psychic bonds. As a standard action, a Setgetzen can join any number of willing targets into their collective (up to their limit, see below). The Setgetzen must have line of sight to each target, each target must have a Wisdom score of at least 1, and all targets must be within Medium range (100 ft. + 10 ft. per class level). The collective can contain up to their Intelligence modifier plus their Setgetzen level creatures. The Setgetzen is always considered a member of their own collective, and does not count against this limit.

The Setgetzen can choose to remove a member as a free action on their turn, and any member can voluntarily leave the collective as a free action on their turn. Any member whose Wisdom drops to zero or who moves out of range of the collective is automatically removed. If a member enters a null psionics field, the connection to the collective is suppressed until the member leaves the field. A member who leaves the collective for any reason immediately loses any and all benefits they may have gained from being a member. A Setgetzen is aware of the status of their collective and can, roughly, sense the presence of each member, although beyond telling if such a creature is still a member, this has no mechanical benefit until certain Mythos have been obtained.

A Setgetzen can manifest certain powers through their collective. If a Setgetzen power specifies one or more willing targets (or is harmless) and has a range greater than personal, he can manifest this power on a member of their collective regardless of the range of the actual power. All other non-range restrictions still apply. They may manifest any power with the Network Descriptor this way, regardless of their actual ranges or targets. If they are capable of manifesting powers or casting spells from a different class (as is the case for a multiclass Setgetzen), any compatible spell or power with a range greater than touch can also be used through the collective.
If a member of the collective dies, the member is removed from the collective and the Setgetzen must make a Fortitude save (DC 15) or lose 1 power point for every Hit Die of the fallen member or be sickened for an equal number of rounds.

At 7th level, a Setgetzens collective range is doubled, and the Setgetzen may have a number of creatures in it equal to 1.5 x their Setgetzen level plus their Int modifier.

At 13th level, a Setgetzen's collective range is limitless on the same plane as the Setgetzen, and the Setgetzen may have a number of creatures in it equal to 2 x their Setgetzen level plus their Int modifier.

At 19th level, a Setgetzen's range reaches even across other planes and dimensions, and the Setgetzen may have a number of creatures in it equal to 4 x their Setgetzen level plus their Int modifier.

A Setgetzen is telepathically linked to every member of their collective, and can communicate with them freely in this manner.  They can also share sensations and thoughts between other members of the collective at will.



Now I did this because the original idea was for a Mythos class that focused primarily on supporting its allies using its psionic powers, but as the concept has evolved there's also been a lot of heavily offensive Mythos that I've come up with, and I'm fairly divided on them.  Let me give some examples of what I mean.

*Spoiler: Exceptional Mythos*
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Mind-Melding Intellect Dispersal
Prerequisites: --
When it first bloomed, the Celosia was already rooted in the minds of life throughout existence, drawing strength from them and giving it back in turn.  All members of the Setgetzens collective gain a +1 bonus to all Intelligence-based skill checks.  This bonus increases to +2 at level 4, +3 at level 8, +4 at level 12, +5 at level 16, and +10 at level 20.


Psyche-Shattering Vengeance Strike
Prerequisites: At least 7 power points
When those who dared to uproot the Celosia failed to do so, they were punished for their treachery.  While you do not yet have to the ability to rupture the minds of those who oppose you, you may still revoke their assaults.  Once per round, when attacked you make an opposing attacking roll.  Should your attack hit, you deal an additional 1d4 psychic damage for every two levels of Setgetzen you have (minimum 1d4).

_Basic manifestations_
Disjointed Mind-Breaking Shockwave: Whenever you make a Psyche-Shattering Vengeance Strike, you may expend 2 power points to strike fear in your targets heart, causing them to be shaken for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence modifier.
Surging Telekinetic Overdrive: Whenever you make a Psyche-Shattering Vengeance Strike, you may expend a number of power points up to 6.  For every two power points you use, your target is pushed back 5 feet.



*Spoiler: Fantastic Mythos*
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Thought-as-Form Ablation
Prerequisites: At least 10 power points
The wall of thought which surrounded the Celosia after it fled was a powerful defense, one impervious to many modes of attack.  Whenever you or a member of your Collective would take damage from a psionic source, you make expend a number of power points up to your Intelligence modifier x 2.  You gain 1 PR for each point spent this way.  This PR may be divided up amongst the members of your Collective however you please.

_Advanced Manifestation_
Body-Shielding Thought Shards: You may also activate Thought-as-Form Ablation when you would be dealt damage from a physical source.  When activated this way, instead of gaining PR for each power point expended, you gain 1 DR for each two power points expended.


Psyche-Searing Retardation Aura
Prerequisites: Psyche-Shattering Vengeance Strike
After it fled, the Celosia constructed a barrier between it and those minds that would seek it harm.  Whenever you would be the target of a melee attack, you may, as a reaction, activate this Mythos.  The target of this Mythos must make a Will save.  Should they make the save, nothing happens.  Should they fail the save, roll 1d6 per member of your collective and add your Intelligence modifier.  They take this much psychic damage; to the target of this Mythos, it feels as though their entire body is wreathed in flames.  They must make an additional Will save to avoid being panicked.

_Advanced Manifestations_
Intellect-Devouring Rosewood Flames: Whenever you activate Psyche-Searing Aura of Retardation, you may choose to expend a quarter of your maximum power points.  If you do so, instead of being panicked, the target must make a Fortitude save using their Wisdom in place of their Con.  Should they fail, they take 1d4 Intelligence burn.
Mind-Piercing Pyre Thorns: Whenever you activate Psyche-Searing Aura of Retardation, you may choose to expend a quarter of your maximum power points.  If you do so, instead of being panicked, the target must make a Fortitude save using their Wisdom in place of their Con.  Should they fail, they take an extra d8 of fire damage equal to your Intelligence modifier.



And then the real kicker that has me unsure whether to go with the original idea of support or combat.

*Spoiler: Mind-Tarnishing Rose-Thorn Shintai*
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Mind-Tarnishing Rose-Thorn Shintai
Prerequisites: Psyche-Shattering Vengeance Strike, Intellectual Briar-Thorn Imbuement
When the Celosia came under attack, it struck back and ripped the minds of those who had harmed it to shreds.  Their gibbering psyches and wails of maddened anguish were like poison to the Mind Flower, and it retreated from them in its horror.

You have no such issue.

A number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier, as a standard action you make a ranged touch attack.  The target must make a Will save.  If they succeed, they only take half damage and ignore the other effects of Mind-Tarnishing Rose-Thorn Shintai.  Should they fail, they take Xd8+Y psychic damage, where X is equal to the number of creatures in your collective, and Y is the average Intelligence modifier of your collective.  Additionally, the target of your attack becomes confused and sickened for a number of rounds equal to your Setgetzen level.

_Advanced Manifestation_
Psyche-Shredding Pistil Whip: Instead of confusing and sickening the target of your Mind-Tarnishing Rose-Thorn Shintai, you may expend half of your maximum power points to double the damage it deals.



So, tl;dr.  I'm making a psychic Mythis class, can't decide if I should go mostly support or mostly combat.  A friend of mine suggested I do a branching thing like the Olethrofex, but I would like some opinions.

*Spoiler: Also here's the fluff I have so far*
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What is a story but an idea, a thought given room to run and leap and bound away from its own restraints?  Even as the earliest Titans came to be, their very essence, the very idea of thought made flesh, was the seed of yet another idea.  As the Titans multiplied and minds echoed raucously throughout existence, that seed grew, and eventually bloomed into the Celosia.  Rooted in the thoughts and minds of all of creation, the Celosia flourished, and spread its branches across the collective unconscious of the universe, drinking deep of the ideas and emotions of all living things.

Some, however, felt as though the Celosia was an invader, a parasite which infected the minds of others, instead of the offspring of flourishing minds through the cosmos.  And so they dared to cut at its tendrils, and in response the Celosia struck back, lighting their minds ablaze and tearing them asunder.  The Celosias roots were still ingrained in the minds of these maddened creatures, and the Titan trembled, for such brokenness was unknown to it, and was as poison to it.  The Celosia retreated then, hiding itself away, the bitter taste of scorching insanity still fresh on its tongue; a taste from which it would never escape, not truly.

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## Vauron

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> Psyche-Shattering Vengeance Strike
> Prerequisites: At least 7 power points
> When those who dared to uproot the Celosia failed to do so, they were punished for their treachery.  While you do not yet have to the ability to rupture the minds of those who oppose you, you may still revoke their assaults.  Once per round, when attacked you make an opposing attacking roll.  Should your attack hit, you deal an additional 1d4 psychic damage for every two levels of Setgetzen you have (minimum 1d4).


*Spoiler*
Show




_Basic manifestations_
Disjointed Mind-Breaking Shockwave: Whenever you make a Psyche-Shattering Vengeance Strike, you may expend 2 power points to strike fear in your targets heart, causing them to be shaken for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence modifier.
Surging Telekinetic Overdrive: Whenever you make a Psyche-Shattering Vengeance Strike, you may expend a number of power points up to 6.  For every two power points you use, your target is pushed back 5 feet.

When does the attack resolve? Does your damage happen first? From the sound of things it goes (Enemy Attack Roll)=>(PSVS induced Attack Roll)=>(PSVS Damage)=>(Enemy Attack Roll Damage)

*Spoiler: Mind-Tarnishing Rose-Thorn Shintai*
Show

Mind-Tarnishing Rose-Thorn Shintai
Prerequisites: Psyche-Shattering Vengeance Strike, Intellectual Briar-Thorn Imbuement
When the Celosia came under attack, it struck back and ripped the minds of those who had harmed it to shreds.  Their gibbering psyches and wails of maddened anguish were like poison to the Mind Flower, and it retreated from them in its horror.

You have no such issue.

A number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier, as a standard action you make a ranged touch attack.  The target must make a Will save.  If they succeed, they only take half damage and ignore the other effects of Mind-Tarnishing Rose-Thorn Shintai.  Should they fail, they take Xd8+Y psychic damage, where X is equal to the number of creatures in your collective, and Y is the average Intelligence modifier of your collective.  Additionally, the target of your attack becomes confused and sickened for a number of rounds equal to your Setgetzen level.

_Advanced Manifestation_
Psyche-Shredding Pistil Whip: Instead of confusing and sickening the target of your Mind-Tarnishing Rose-Thorn Shintai, you may expend half of your maximum power points to double the damage it deals.


How is this a shintai? Compare with the Teramach, Olethrofex, and Kathados Shintai. How does the change the way you play the character? I'm not saying what the mythos does is inappropriate at the moment, it just isn't a shintai.

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## Slawth13

> When does the attack resolve? Does your damage happen first? From the sound of things it goes (Enemy Attack Roll)=>(PSVS induced Attack Roll)=>(PSVS Damage)=>(Enemy Attack Roll Damage)


Ah, you're right, the wording is kind of ambiguous.  It's supposed to resolve the enemy attack first, and then PSVS activates.  I'll rewrite that portion.




> How is this a shintai? Compare with the Teramach, Olethrofex, and Kathados Shintai. How does the change the way you play the character? I'm not saying what the mythos does is inappropriate at the moment, it just isn't a shintai.


See that's sort of where I'm torn.  This was supposed to be what shifted the Setgetzen from a primarily support-focused class into a strong combatant, but I ended up making a bunch of other combat Mythos and now can't decide where to go with it, whether it should stay support-oriented or if I should do the branching Mythos thing, and make this a regular Mythos and then make a new Shintai.

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## DracoDei

> Well, that's not to say I wouldn't love to see Xefas put out more Bellator Mythos. And I don't actually know Xefas' design intent; I didn't ask him.


Well, design intent is a reasonable thing to wish to understand in this sort of discussion. It does occur to me to wonder if anyone has ever done much stacking up of "Zero XP Spent on extras" builds, against "10/20/30/40/50% of total XPs spent on extras" builds to compare their effectiveness on paper. Naturally, effectiveness in actual play would be superior, but with play-test data being so rare... incidentally here is a link to the OOC thread, in case I didn't give links before. From that thread links to the IC thread and (at least most of) the character sheets can be found within the first post or three.

We had a Bellator, a Teramach, a Kreikiri, and an abortive attempt at an Akastarepti.



> Well, it says only 50% complete, so that can't help. Also, it is specifically designed to have three main streams, Death, Undeath and Oblivion. The Shintai is pretty much entirely dependent on the DM, which is a pain. After reading Xefas' description of how it's supposed to work, I actually like it a lot more, but I never got that sense from the actual mythos.
> 
> Just my 2c.


Off the top of my head(feeling too lazy to go look right this minute): How well does mixing and matching between the three streams work?

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## Vauron

I was worried I was unclear. It seems I was right. My issue wasn't what the mythos did, but what it _didn't_ do. I'll bring up some shintais and bold the parts that your shintai lacked an equivalent to. 

*Spoiler: Untamed Apocalypse Shintai*
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Untamed Apocalypse Shintai
Prerequisite: -

You gain a permanent, amplified Rage that never expires or lessens.* In addition to the behavioral restrictions of a normal Rage, you may not wield weapons or tools other than unarmed attacks or improvised weapons. You automatically fail checks made to build, repair, or create something physical (something incorporeal or ethereal is still impossible, but more ephemeral, conceptual things, like an idea, song, or plan are still fair game). Craft checks are always included. You may not voluntarily heal or alleviate the suffering of another living thing. You become sterile and/or infertile, and you perfectly negate all attempts to create life from you - even such magical effects as a "Simulacrum" spell, or a deity of fertility using your genetic material to create an immaculate child independently of you; these surrogate offspring rot away into dust before they can breathe their first breath. Finally, with the exception of the occasional single round of patching one's self up, or sleeping just long enough to maintain optimal functionality, or eating enough not to starve, if you are not actively engaged in harming sapient beings or defending yourself, you must be physically moving towards a place that you believe to be inhabited by sapient beings, with intent to harm them when you get there.* 

An exception exists in creatures that the Monster recognizes as part of itself, rather than an external being. You are not compelled by Untamed Apocalypse Shintai to harm creatures that possess a Mythos from the Teramach class, though you are certainly free to do so if you wish, nor are you compelled to harm Familiars, Animal Companions, or Special Mounts belonging to yourself or to creatures with a Teramach Mythos. 

In exchange, you may now take a total number of Swift Actions per round equal to the number of Rage effects you currently suffer from (which may all be converted to Immediate Actions as normal). Furthermore, when you kill a living thing, you gain Regeneration X (X equal the number of Rage effects you currently suffer from) until the beginning of your next turn, which is not bypassed by any kind of damage.

Once you take UAS if you aren't killing people, you must be moving towards where you believe there are people to kill. Additionally, you can create nothing anymore besides pain and the lamentations of your victms.

*Spoiler: Sojourner Of A Thousand Lives Shintai*
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Sojourner Of A Thousand Lives
Prerequisite: -
[Internal][Fire][Air][Water][Earth]

The Omphalos' relationship with time is not like a mortal's. It is not truly omniscient, though it might perhaps seem to cleave in that direction from a mortal perspective, perceiving most of its own existence from beginning to end as a single chain of memories, with all the inaccuracy, imperfection, and bias that a memory intails. But part of its future is dark; a great disastrous uncertainty. And it is for this purpose that, very occasionally, the Omphalos will turn its unspeaking, inscrutable will towards bending the very rules it was constructed to maintain, and withhold a dying soul from its afterlife.

These occurrences are rare; written off by the Outer Planar bureaucracy as a routine clerical error. Sometimes a soul destined to become a great Solar or Duke of Hell, or something of that kind, goes missing, and a god pops down to the Omphalos' inner machinery to check if anything has gotten stuck, but they are like toddlers staring into the workings of a great computer. Inevitably, they retreat back to their palatial estates and blame the whole affair on a rounding error.

However, in these vast mechanisms, the stolen soul is rejuvenated, relieved of its necessity to continue on to the afterlife and become one with the eternal ideological battlefield there. The custodians of the Omphalos inform the soul of its purpose and destiny, tutor it on matters that will one day become important and, eventually, send the soul backwards, back down to the Prime, where it inhabits a newborn body in place of a wholly new soul from the Positive Energy Plane. It remembers nothing. Yet. It grows into a new life, becomes a new person, makes new choices, and eventually dies again. And the process is repeated. Again and again, the soul is rejuvenated and recalled, over and over it lives, sometimes as a Kathodos, sometimes as a member of another class, other times as a simple sailor or dam-builder, once a human, once a dragon, once an orc, once a kobold, once a giant, and so on.

Eventually, the soul arrives here. It is a Kathodos, and it is ready to realize its purpose. Though great power awaits, such a choice is difficult and rarely taken once presented. To awaken as one of the Sojourners is tantamount to a death of the self, as that which the individual believes to be who they are - their various personality traits and quirks, likes, dislikes, beliefs, and ideals - is overtaken in a flood of a thousand lives just as rich and beautiful and painful and unique as their own. What's more, they suddenly remember all the trials and teachings given to them between lives, and so their scope of time stretches even further.
*
So varied and muddled becomes a Sojourner's personality that they effective lose their personality altogether. All traits are subsumed into the one purpose that they have been born, and born, and born ad infinitum to do; protect the Prime, protect the Inner Planes, protect the Omphalos. They have no personal desires (for every hundred lives they've had that have enjoyed doing something, perhaps they've had a hundred that disliked it), no true friends (one life of loyality is outweighed by a thousands lives that are indifferent) - they are only stoic guardians now, impartial stewards of balance.*

You gain a +6 bonus to your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores from the counsel of a thousand lives of experience. You gain a +30 competence bonus on checks with every skill, taught by a thousand lives of learning. You gain ten bonus feats of your choice, though you must meet the prerequisites for them. Finally, at (your initiative count - 10), you may act with a single standard, move, or swift action in addition to the actions you normally receive every round.

You stop being a character and become a meat robot defender of the world.

*Spoiler: Angel of Death Shintai*
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Angel of Death Shintai
Prerequisite: The Undead Type
[Death]

Through utmost denial of the more abominable origins of your power, you have forsaken the path of undeath and become a champion of the natural cycle. You retain all of the traits and features of the Undead type (and those granted by the Corpse-Life Apotheosis Mythos if you have it), with the following exceptions, but your actual type changes to Outsider (your native plane remains the same). The first exception is that you are now healed by both positive and negative energy, which overrides prior feats you may have, such as Tomb-Tainted Soul. Secondly, you are no longer destroyed at 0 hit points - you may be reduced to a negative hit point threshold before death, just like an Outsider. Thirdly, any immunity to mind-affecting effects that you possess through traits of your race or type, or via feats, do not function against Gods of Death (that do not also possess portfolios of Undeath), other deity-level entities aligned with Death, or the direct servants of such powers.

Furthermore, you may now see, at a glance, the remaining lifespan ordained by fate for any mortal creature with Intelligence 3 or more that you look upon that has hit dice equal to or less than (class level -4)*. This typically includes most Aberrations, Dragons, Giants, Humanoids, and Monstrous Humanoids. This time is not absolute; the actions of creatures that can alter fate, even a little, such as anyone with PC class levels, those important enough to be built with the Elite Array or better, or just particularly significant characters, can end a life prematurely. But, if all things go according to fate's plan, when a mortal's time strikes 0, something will kill them.

*For the remainder of this Mythos, the term "mortal" will refer to "mortal creature with Intelligence 3 or more".
*
As a servant of Death, you are barred from interceding with a mortal's natural allotment of time. Hostile actions taken with your Mythos (or by minions created by your Mythos) fail against mortals with more than a day's time left, your attacks cannot reduce them below 1 hit point, your ailments cannot push them over the threshold, and any power that you have to heal, evade, protect, or otherwise safeguard a creature fizzle in the face of Death's imminent hand if a mortal has less than a day to live.*

Finally, by spending a full ten minutes in uninterrupted concentration, you may momentarily subvert time and space in one of the two following ways. In the first, you and up to (class level) willing creatures within 30ft, travel from the Prime Material Plane to an Outer Plane, or from an Outer Plane to the Prime Material Plane. If the Plane to which you are traveling hosts the domain of a deity, or other greater power, of Death, then you appear there. If it does not, then this ability functions with a margin of error as the Plane Shift spell.

In the second case, you may mentally aim for a city or other similarly sized geographical location on the same plane as yourself, either that you are familiar with or that you are capable of making a DC 30 Knowledge (Geography) check to direct yourself with (substitute Knowledge: The Plane outside of the Prime). If there is at least one mortal in that general location with less than a day to live by fate's measure, you disappear from your current location and appear somewhere near one such dying mortal (usually within 100ft or less), in the most ominous fashion possible; standing at the foot of a person's deathbed, or looking in their window as lightning flashes or the moon drifts out from behind a cloud are both very common. The mortal, whose imminent death allowed your passage, dies nearly instantly. The disease they struggle with takes them a little earlier than expected, they have a freak heart attack, a pot falls off a shelf and cracks their skull open, they fall down a flight of stairs, a nearby horse bolts from its handler and tramples them, etc, etc. 


Can no longer kill those whose fated time to die isn't up. Note that generally mooks and such don't have the ability to go against fate, or anything with an INT of 2, 1, or - can be killed at whim.

----------


## DracoDei

1.) Hmmm... as a discussion point, I wonder if my own Shintai is enough of a burden on the character to count by your standards?
*Spoiler: A bit based on the end of a particular Magical Girl Anime...*
Show

Legendary Mythos
*Unceasing Rapid-Rescue Shintai*
*Prerequisite:* -
Every moment that you are idle is a moment when someone or something you care about is in jeopardy. Your soul refuses the necessity of travel, meaningless socialization, and the basic activities necessary to sustain life. You simply are wherever you are most needed.

Whenever you are not engaged in some activity that materially advances the protection of a cause or one or more persons that you value strongly you are simultaneously restored as if by a _Heal_ spell and transported as per a _Wish_ to wherever the GM decides that the most desperate need of your aid may be.  Noting that any situation extreme enough you can not contribute to it materially obviously requires the aid of someone other than yourself. Thus, you might find yourself appearing near a wyrm gold dragon fighting his archnemisis, a Red Dragon who is a great wyrm, but not if the battle was happening below the surface of a lake of lava where you would almost certainly burn to death before you could even locate the combatants by sound and touch, let alone figure out what was going on.

Note also that this is not always a matter of violence. You might equally easily find yourself in the middle of a city wracked with plague, or just outside the council-chambers where the course of a nation is being debated (thus to probably talk your way in and join the debate).

You no longer require food, water, or sleep, and are immune to fatigue, exhaustion, and subdual damage that results from cold, heat, or continued exertion. You become amphibious, able to breathe water and air equally easily. The lower of your swim and land speeds increases to be equal to the higher of the two, including gaining an additional mode if you lack it. See the PHB and/or MM for the effects of having a swim speed.

If you do not have a fly speed you gain a fly speed of 30 with Poor maneuverability.

You also gain the ability to speak a number of additional languages equal to your charisma score or your number of ranks in diplomacy, whichever is less.

You grown ever stronger, tested in the crucible of adversity. You no longer need to train to gain levels or purchase mythos, excellencies, and/or manifestations, even if that is the norm for the campaign.

*Basic*
_Airless Rescue Flexibility_
You no longer need to breath.

_Household Welcomeness Stature Adjustment_
Whenever you teleport via this Shintai your size (before all adjustments from other sources other than race and templates) is whatever it would otherwise be, one size larger, or one size smaller, whichever will make it most easy for you to navigate your new location. If multiple sizes are equally capable (such as in a wide open plain) you may select between them. This adjustment stacks with all other effects, including ones that state they dont stack with anything. 

Example: Thus a human with this manifestation would always arrive as small, medium, or large. If they also had _Reduce Person_ as a permanent effect, they would instead arrive as Tiny, Small, or Medium. 

*Advanced*
_Resilient Regeneration Necessity_
Whenever you are teleported by this Mythos, you also gain the benefits of a _Regeneration_ spell, and always count as being on ground sacred to your deity for the purposes of your ability to recover from injuries, curses, etc.

_Single-Minded Resolution of Purpose_
You gain the effect of a _Mind Blank_ spell, and add twice your level to all Sense Motive checks that would alter aims, or misdirect your overall actions towards those aims. Thus this bonus would not apply against feinting in combat, but would apply against an attempt for an infiltrator of a resistance movement you have joined for the moment to convince you that he is sincere in his support for the cause.

_As long as there is <your cause, or opposite of your cause>..._
Whenever you are slain, your body and all your equipment vanish within 1d3 rounds. 2d6 weeks later, you appear, returned to life as if by a _Ressurection_ spell. The location is as per usual for the transportation effect of this mythos.

If you have at least one Exalted Mythos (regardless of if it is a Phileotheysia Mythos) then this effect instead duplicates _True Resurrection_.


2.) Who here has heard of "Nightmare Whisper, The Kindest of Lies" from the "Pony POV Series"? I'm thinking of replacing one of the images for the Phileotheysia with her, since I realized that she is one of the very few examples of ONGOING sacrifice that doesn't confine the character to an alternate dimension or similarly make them incapable of what would be "roleplay" if they were a player character.

While she is probably a better example than most of the images I currently have, she is also pretty obscure compared to them.


EDIT: I have MORE than enough Mythos and Excellencies to post the Phileotheysia. Ironically enough, the part I am most concerned about thus and haven't written up yet is the basic class abilities (the equivalents to the Teramach's 'Primitive Brutality'). Should I go ahead and post it, even without that?

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## Vauron

Yeah, its burdensome enough to count to my mind. It sounds like your Shintai fits best in a bunch of small stories or one shots. A complete work consisting of such a Phileotheysia's tale would be more along the lines of 'The Collected Legends of the Savior", rather than something like 'The Epic of (NAME)' which you'd expect from an Anakitos. That said, the manifestations feel odd to me. Not wrong, necessarily, but odd.

Honestly, of the other shintai I've read and can remember, only the Angel of Death Shintai was something I'd consider taking. Sojourner flat out turns you from a 'they' to an 'it', while Untamed is essentially a Frenzied Berzerker whose Frenzy never ends. AoDS lets you still be a character, unlike Sojourner. Can't recall any of the fanmade shintai, so I wont comment there.

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## Rogthnor

Anyone mind taking a look at my Mythic Bard? I'm having trouble deciding which mythos to put at which level, and it is badly in need of a beta.

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## Bdrone

Bit of a Summary post here... sorry if this style doesn't fit. kind of random order.

To DracoDei and Voodoopaladin: Ranged disciplines and the Bellator. I mostly play pathfinder, so i look at mythos with that in mind, and the non-supernatural limitation blocked out the bulk of path of war and the Touhou tome of battle, what my first ports of call are. that said, if i could scrounge up enough mythos buys, im debating a Sunder two hander build (for the charge and cleaving abilities when needed) linked up with archery and extra excellency to make melee range disciplines count as ranged usable to a certain degree. either that with something like Broken Blade or working on something like Tempest gale. a melee school is better with that excellency because in theory you should be able to apply the strikes with One Kick Ten Thousand Times. Still looking for a good means of a mount, which with the expanded mythoses could make a brutally fast runner or horseback rider.

also to DracoDei: im VERY interested in your Phileotheysia class, just based on that Shintai. you say one of their character reps is Nightmare Whisper? ive not seen that myself, but ive wandered the realms of MLP before. I really would like to read what you have, even if you don't quite yet know what your basic class ability is at. im no judge for the power of a Shintai, but depending on the GM that could easily be a problem. however it could easily ALSO be that the quest your on is where you are needed most, so... *shrugs* i don't know. a cool concept, that's for sure. but its somewhere along the lines of the Kathodos Shintai to me- powerful as crap as a Shintai should, but potentially less restrictive then others.

to Slawth13: a Psychic Mythos class? im quite interested to see where this goes, though im loving the use of a collective right off the bat. that mythos doesn't feel like a Shintai though- id recommend making a separate path if you intend on it, but something else would probably suffice as a better shintai- you have to have a drawback to go with it. and honestly, i wouldn't eat a drawback for a per day ability like that caliber in this system- thats just me. i hate per day uses. i loe Mythos because it feels far more usable on all cylinders.

to Vauron: i WAS taking a good look at the Kathodos using that set of Mythos because of the consistent damage, maybe going TWF with the party as well. that said, a range increment enhancer was something id want to add to that one. that said, you also brought up the  Omnicapable Human Spirit Ignition. im not sure how far that rabbit hole goes... but i blame you for a good bit of lost time the last few days- i had forgotten about amalgam line of feats. so i had to go back to the drawing board on potential concepts- namely a Kathodos or Askopar with Bellator mythoses.... more mythoses, more influences, more mix and match. yum.

random thought- was there ever a mythos class where sonic effects or songs where involved beyond the similar abilities of the Jagganatha or the Dinyomi? I've been in the mood for a Sound manipulation character, like a certain trio of Sirens, and i wonder what the Mythos system would actually do? (EDIT): speak of it, and it arrives. lemme see if i can give it a look.

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## DracoDei

Here, have a LINK to what I have for the Phileotheysia so far. It is a Google Doc, and I have it set up so anyone can put comments on it, so do that or comment here as you think appropriate. I don't think I have any fluff written up there... except for in the mythos themselves, including the names.

If you want more fluff, see THIS thread, which is the class I am re-writing into the Phileotheysia.

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## Vauron

Bdrone, have you looked at the Mythic Illumian? I think it fits with the idea of using sounds to achieve your ends. It may not be exactly what you desire, but it should be interesting to look into.

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## VoodooPaladin

> the Touhou tome of battle


Are you referring to the Touhou Battle Grimoire, or some Pathfinder-cogent material that I'm not aware of?

As for your thing about a sound-based Mythos things; in that movie, music was a direct metaphor for personal expression. So it's a Katametritis. They create artistic endeavors for the express purpose of the manipulation of people, places, and things. You can find its description here. Sadly it has yet to be written in full.

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## DracoDei

> Are you referring to the Touhou Battle Grimoire, or some Pathfinder-cogent material that I'm not aware of?
> 
> As for your thing about a sound-based Mythos things; in that movie, music was a direct metaphor for personal expression. So it's a Katametritis. They create artistic endeavors for the express purpose of the manipulation of people, places, and things. You can find its description here. Sadly it has yet to be written in full.


Your link goes to a PICTURE of a sort of index of a bunch of mythos classes (Just the opening images and a paragraph or three of flavor text). Is that what you intended?

Although if you scroll down far enough then the Katametritis IS in there.

As long as I'm here, a few links rather than teasing, regarding who Nightmare Whisper(the one by Alex Warlorn... apparently there is at least one other by that name) is:

The slow way where you actually get to experience the amazing story. Start with this story, then keep right on going through its sequels until you get to her. Nightmare Whisper is in Season Two... you can PROBABLY skip Season Zero if you have to since it is just covering what was going through the Mane Six's head during the periods when they were Discorded.).

The super-quick spoilery version:
*Spoiler: VERY SPOILERY!*
Show

In this continuity, a Nightmare is when someone becomes the absolute embodiment of one thing, to the exclusion of all other things, especially virtues. Nightmare Whisper is Fluttershy when she becomes the Nightmare of Kindness. She finds an external power source to boot, called the Elder Horn, loosely based on The Elder Wand from Harry Potter (but that happens entirely off-screen I think).

She starts transforming Equestria into a paradise where everyone is foals who play all day and there is no competition for resources, even between the roots of plants. There is enough to go around for everyone. The series later goes on to show us how VERY VERY close she came to making this a good thing. According to later episodes of the story, if she had simply asked permission from The Sisters and gotten their advice, rather than just going ahead blindly, it probably would have all worked out at least enough to make it a huge improvement even over the default Equestria from the show. We get a tiny glimpse after Nightmare Whisper is defeated of MULTIPLE alternate timelines where this actually works out to truly turn Equestria into something... something amazing *tear of joy and sorrow at what was/almost was*. Even in the story we actually get to read, she alters her actual plans mid-execution at least once. It has been a while since I read it, but I am fairly sure this is true. For instance, at one time she was using lotus-eater type dreams but I don't  quite remember if that was an overall plan for Kindness, or if she just was using it as a defensive technique.

In order to do this, she had to take on the the suffering for every flaw in people, definitely moral and probably physical as well. The author, Alex Warlorn has the characters use the phrase "the child foal of Omelas" to describe the situation after it is revealed (it is even the title of one of the chapters), but this one was a volunteer.

Here is what she looks like:
http://fav.me/d4i7kyy

There is a very well written fight between her and the Mane Five and in the end the day is saved by... well, let's just say that sometimes "karma" is a wonderful, WONDERFUL thing. Just as with Luna/Nightmare Moon before her, everything works out pretty well in the end (the paradise is gone, but Fluttershy survives, and a lot of good comes of it across Equestria).

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## Bdrone

Vauron: re-reading the Mythic Illumin, its a wonderful place to start. truespeech as a requirement can be... manipulated in it's own right, so perhaps i can put that to good use indeed... its manipulation has some definite uses I can think of- im loving Black Speech and even the Bull rush mythos right off the bat. Bardic music uses aside, this could be quite the riot... but ill be waiting for more like this in the future for certain.

VoodooPaladin: *cough* right, yes, the Touhou Battle Grimoire. as a fan of both Touhou and Martial initiation, a god number of those disciplines got my interest. I also like skills being involved in combat at times as well, which helped.

looking at the list of Mythos classes, this is a much longer list of ideas then i recall... and so many potentials. so this mythic artist is in the same space as the Epicurean and Epistemian right now. i see. we may be thinking of different Sirens (curse you Rainbow Rocks) but it could work... argh. now i want to see that as well. Annnnd id have to show a friend the Agapon when it arrives- Schrodinger is on the banner with Harley Quinn. jeeze... do i have to say anything about the possibilities of the Amyitos and the Michanikos? this is why i love this subsystem- so much can be done...

Dracodei: ....about Nightmare Whisper. sweet holy buggery. i suspected it would be something like that, but THAT? yeah. yeah. that would count in spades for your banner. unless you can think of something better, I would put her up there. no doubt in my mind.

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## Slawth13

So taking the suggestions I was given, Mind-Tarnishing Rose-Thorn Shintai is now just a regular Legendary Mythos and is no longer restricted by a times-per-day caveat.  As far as things better suited to actual Shintai, does anybody have any suggestions?  I've got the idea of a Phoenix-esque ability to take Int burn in exchange for a serious increase in power but I'm not quite sure how to implement it.

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## Zale

> Anyone mind taking a look at my Mythic Bard? I'm having trouble deciding which mythos to put at which level, and it is badly in need of a beta.


I'd love to see a mythic bard. Has it been posted somewhere yet?

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## Vauron

> So taking the suggestions I was given, Mind-Tarnishing Rose-Thorn Shintai is now just a regular Legendary Mythos and is no longer restricted by a times-per-day caveat.  As far as things better suited to actual Shintai, does anybody have any suggestions?  I've got the idea of a Phoenix-esque ability to take Int burn in exchange for a serious increase in power but I'm not quite sure how to implement it.


I don't have a suggestion for what a shintai for your class could be, but I would suggest approaching from the fluffy side first. Ask yourself what kind of transformative idea fits with the class, then come up with powers to go with it. Essentially, focus on the "I don't kill people whose time isn't up' bit first, then try for the "Can see how long you have to live and planeshift/teleport" bit.

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## Zale

> So taking the suggestions I was given, Mind-Tarnishing Rose-Thorn Shintai is now just a regular Legendary Mythos and is no longer restricted by a times-per-day caveat.  As far as things better suited to actual Shintai, does anybody have any suggestions?  I've got the idea of a Phoenix-esque ability to take Int burn in exchange for a serious increase in power but I'm not quite sure how to implement it.


Maybe the character loses their physical form and now only exists within the minds connected to them?

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## nikkoli

So I'm running a campaign (3.p/3.5) and I would like a little bit of input on "critters." Namely making BBEGs from mythos characters. 
*Spoiler: Stay out of this spoiler Lanth Sor!*
Show

 He's one of my players  that's why. 
So for this campaign all the characters were abducted by a huge diety power level dude names Tursue, and he called himself Prophecy. He is more or less a dead god and can't leave his demi plane and has about 0 followers in the prime world. Anyway, he also said that he is the father of all of the death gods and that the group of them (Zyphus, Urgatoya, Pharasma, Charon, and Orcus) are in the relitivly near future going to throw the world out of balance.  Tursue wants the party to go and kill all the death gods so the world will be jolly and not cease to exist as the scourge ravages all of the planes.  
Onto the killing dieties: if you want to say "you can't kill dieties and it's stupid to stat them" please don't. Otherwise would it be reasonable to make these dieties as oletherofex's and then give them divine powers based off of their divine rank? Also is there any support for epic oletherofex? 
Also the setting is of my creation, so killing gods requires you to weaken their following and then do a super Planar binding on them to draw them into the prime to be slain, and each god has their own ritual.


Thanks for the help, hopefully the spoiler works

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## Defiantnight

> Maybe the character loses their physical form and now only exists within the minds connected to them?


The Epifovian has a shintai sort of similar to that, except it turns you into Bloody Mary.  :Small Smile: 
You could look at that for ideas?

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## VoodooPaladin

> *cough* right, yes, the Touhou Battle Grimoire. as a fan of both Touhou and Martial initiation, a god number of those disciplines got my interest. I also like skills being involved in combat at times as well, which helped.


Ooh, if your group's cool with Battle Grimoire material, then your Bellator must be ecstatic. You mentioned THF with a bow for backup, so I have to ask if you've looked into using Thousand-Armed Weaponmaster Intuition to get yourself one of the Moon Agent's Yumi bows, or an Oni Brawler's Weighted Chain. They are, after all, just really nice exotic weapons.

I wonder if a Bellator's Open-Minded Smithing Practices would let them make Youkai-Forged Blades? Probably not wield them, since that's the purview of the NetherWorld Gardener feat, but that would be really cool in its own right.




> As far as things better suited to actual Shintai, does anybody have any suggestions?


How about a Shintai that centers around abandoning the ability to perceive reality or formulate opinions outside of the thoughts and perceptions of others?

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## 7th son of sons

If you were playing a Dinyomi, but wanted to be a Hero, what kind of mythos would you want that would make you sort of like a Necessary Evil Good Guy, or a Bad Guy with a Good Cause?

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## Bdrone

> Ooh, if your group's cool with Battle Grimoire material, then your Bellator must be ecstatic. You mentioned THF with a bow for backup, so I have to ask if you've looked into using Thousand-Armed Weaponmaster Intuition to get yourself one of the Moon Agent's Yumi bows, or an Oni Brawler's Weighted Chain. They are, after all, just really nice exotic weapons.
> 
> I wonder if a Bellator's Open-Minded Smithing Practices would let them make Youkai-Forged Blades? Probably not wield them, since that's the purview of the NetherWorld Gardener feat, but that would be really cool in its own right.


Really im a Ranged Primary person, and I don't really have a group, just a box i put ideas into to hopefully use someday. i quite prefer Crossbows, but Arching Comet Style is just... amazing. any build that provides me 2+ range feats on entry has my attention alone, nevermind the rest that one mythos does otherwise. if i was big on bows it would be a drooling point all it's own. i brought up THF though because the bulk of the Bellator is a master of all weaponry (rightfully so- they are a shoe in innately for PoW 2.0 Mithral Current, and they can pass on enhancement bonuses between weapons by just BORROWING a magic weapon for a bit) and the THF style can have sunders for more mythos along with the full benefits of more mythos like Tavern-Clearing Cleave, Battalion-Engaging Charge (though id take focusing the iron storm- obvious reasons), and One Kick Ten Thousand Times (this move here? makes me salivate and I'm usually the one furthest back).

However with the expanded Mythos and excellency file alone (my goodness what you can do with Broken feat line and Race Mythos...), you can use melee manuvers with ranged weapons in addition to more ranged usable mythoses and mounted combat ones. other then finding a way to get a mount that is to my liking and fine picking what disciplines I want in that case, this field is amazingly open. especially if One Kick Ten Thousand Times can be synced up with my bow in that way. got a Dex based idea that scares me.

As for the Touhou Battle Grimoire and the Bellator involing it... while i sure didn't think of yoinking their weapon designs (the Yumi in theory would gain the strength mod... hmm), that does make for a good idea. it's just ever since the moon agent and the introduction of Pure Crafting (honestly, that was one of the few times in my life i really felt like using the term overpowered. i could use insight to the Moon Agent and Pure Crafting in general for someone else's opinion on that one), the classes have been interesting, but even im not sure about them in the games i could get. the Mythical Maid (Currently WIP) has my eye right now, but what I'm most intrigued by are the disciplines and the races (Kasha and Inchling in particular- YES, ive considered an inchling ranged martial user on a bird mount). you may indeed be able to craft Youkai Forged Blades with that mythos, but you couldnt use them.

sadly digging in the TBG for the Bellator Seed mythos series comes up slim, because so many of the abilities in a discipline are spelled out to be either directly supernatural (Dream Battle), or whole maneuver lists start by stating the list is supernatural unless otherwise stated (most of the rest). the only disciplines that aren't stated to be supernatural directly that i can recall are oddly enough Mysterious Millennium (which i never really went through before. color me intrigued if i can get Dangerous Drug to work.) and the WIP Lunar Dial, which is stated to be Ex. even ancient temple is SU. a good deal of Path of War has SU elements as well, leaving out among ranged the now improved Solar Wind, but bringing in Tempest Gale as a trick based option (providing line attacks, ranged combat manuvers, and such). for power play, discipline weaponing in Broken Blade from PoW with the ranged to melee expanded excellency is one of my better bets for raw power.

Whatever the case, i feel like ive cracked on something that utterly suits my style when im not feeling natural attack crazy (for that we have Epifovian, which i still enjoy and wish i could cross more effectively). just got a few more things to set. it's given me a crash course in all things animal companion and mounted as well! 




> If you were playing a Dinyomi, but wanted to be a Hero, what kind of mythos would you want that would make you sort of like a Necessary Evil Good Guy, or a Bad Guy with a Good Cause?


huh. Good question, this. I wasn't sure if i could play a Dinyomi because of the glorious/humbled state of things, but when I was thinking on it it felt like to be a good aligned one you had to be a kind of grim commander. I saw myself using the mounted mythos combined with a good deal of the lacky mythos series to go for a Leader of the people design. your thinkin' of Mythos's to allow for a Knight Templar or even Noble Demon? 

When I first read it, I thought maybe something diplomacy or intimidate based that perhaps gets people to see your side of things through how certain you truely are (but then, that may have already been done). alternatively, maybe a progression from Altruistic Burden-Bearing Ego Suppression in where in where over time you gain benefits from striking down those who you truely are against, but suffer less and less alignment wise from acts that you wouldn't do or possibly regret until eventually you gain some sort of additional bonus  that effects most targets and your alignment can be treated as one you choose, even though you've done so many deeds that would ruin that for you, because the ends justified the means to get you where you did. after all- you know whats best. ehh. its a thought I figured may work. Wish I had something more to add.

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## roko10

Alright, have a free excellency that spits in the face of what the Bellator is supposed to represent, just because I really really like ToBhou.

*Spoiler: Free Excellency!*
Show


*Supernal Martial Adaption*
*Prerequisite:* [Discipline] Seed Awakening in a discipline with Supernatural maneuvers.

Select one disciple that you have selected [Discipline] Seed Awakening with, and contains supernatural maneuvers and stances. You may learn and use supernatural maneuvers and stances from that discipline, although they are still considered Supernatural. This overrides the "[Discipline] Seed Awakening never allows you to learn or activate Supernatural maneuvers or stances" clause in [Discipline] Seed Awakening.

At level 11, your supernatural maneuvers and stances are considered extraordinary (Ex), allowing them to be used even in an Anti-Magic Field. This Excellency may be learned multiple times, once for each [Discipline] Seed Awakening in a discipline with Supernatural maneuvers that you possess.



EDIT: Also, I started to work again on the Mythic Determinator. Please PEACH.

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## VoodooPaladin

> i could use insight to the Moon Agent and Pure Crafting in general for someone else's opinion on that one


Wow, that's quite a lot of text. The feel I got from Pure Crafting was that it was thoroughly half-baked. Not a very good rules patch, not a very good setting patch, not a very good boost for pure fighters, and still easy to abuse to boot.Misteryous Millenium not being Su is probably a typo, as none of the clearly magical stuff is marked as such. I could've sworn all the stuff (up until Lunar Dial) was Su, which is why I've joked for years about how headbutts are actually magic.Bellator who like throwing weapons are completely spoiled for choice. While most of the discipline feats require a stance, Sleep Under The Flowers, Red-White Butterfly only requires a Border of Life maneuver. For two feats and warfan, you'll never need a returning weapon, though you're limited to Point Blank range. Lunar Dial needs no further explanation.Though it's absurdly feat-intensive, I wonder how much raw power you could get out of NetherWorld Gardener + Till When? + Steel Avalanche Style (Ambidextrous Razor Wrath).




> If you were playing a Dinyomi, but wanted to be a Hero, what kind of mythos would you want that would make you sort of like a Necessary Evil Good Guy, or a Bad Guy with a Good Cause?


Whichever ones you want to. Dinyomi refuse no path to power.  :Small Wink: 

But in all seriousness:



This guy. Mao, from Disgaea 3, is an example of a heroic Dinyomi. He plays up the Evil Nemesis angle, and then carries forward with the part where a Dinyomi is perfectly able to have and keep a small circle of trusted compatriots. Nothing about a Dinyomi requires you to be an Evil person: merely a violent and egotistical jackass.

Since I don't see this as adequately represented, here's something to help with that.

*Spoiler: New Dinyomi Excellence*
Show


*Unbound By Common Sense*
Prerequisite: -

Who knows what thoughts pass through the fractious mind of the Conqueror? If there is cruelty in his heart, why does he recruit from among his enemies? If he is merciful, how can he slay his foes with such joyous abandon? Perhaps he is simply too great to be understood. Or perhaps he is too insane for it to matter.

Upon receiving this Excellence, your Alignment ceases to be a meaningful factor in your identity. Whenever an effect or prerequisite would check for your alignment, you are whichever combination of Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic, and Neutral you consider most beneficial. Impossible combinations such being both Good and Evil at once are possible, and expected. If you possess an alignment subtype, it is now indeterminate in the same way.

At any point, if you should choose to replace your written alignment with a more accurate representation of your nature, such as a scratch mark, an ink blot, a null symbol, "-", "Not Applicable", or any other pithy dismissal of morality and ethics, you gain Open Minded (CA) as a bonus feat. This can only occur once, as your non-alignment cannot be changed by any effect once adopted.

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## ImperatorV

> If you were playing a Dinyomi, but wanted to be a Hero, what kind of mythos would you want that would make you sort of like a Necessary Evil Good Guy, or a Bad Guy with a Good Cause?


The big thing standing in the way of a good Dinyomi for me is the glorios/humbled mechanic. It's hard to get a really truely good-aligned character when your pride requires you to kill/one-up everyone who insults you or sees you in a moment of weakness. Perhaps add a mythos allowing you to graciously forgive people for not respecting you (after making a show of force to let them know what you _could_ have done).

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## VoodooPaladin

> The big thing standing in the way of a good Dinyomi for me is the glorios/humbled mechanic. It's hard to get a really truely good-aligned character when your pride requires you to kill/one-up everyone who insults you or sees you in a moment of weakness. Perhaps add a mythos allowing you to graciously forgive people for not respecting you (after making a show of force to let them know what you _could_ have done).


Yeah, I just looked that up. A lot of text, kind of hard to parse quickly. To be honest, I'm not sure how you could have a Conqueror who actually spends most of his time conquering if he can't ignore a personal challenge without wasting time killing the challenger. His Ego should probably not be quite the straightjacket it's currently written to be.

If I had to rule an answer on the spot, I'd probably say that beating the tar out of someone non-lethally is an effective way to return to Glory, provided they admit defeat in some capacity. And that even righteous Dinyomi have this problem a lot, so they don't get to have amazingly active social lives.

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## Zenna

New here but I've been playing dnd 3.5 for since I was a teen. I really like the idea of mythos classes and how they work thinking of trying my hand at one. A sort of mythic dragonslayer (focusing on monsters is too broad). Anyone mind, suggestions etc

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## Jakman217

> New here but I've been playing dnd 3.5 for since I was a teen. I really like the idea of mythos classes and how they work thinking of trying my hand at one. A sort of mythic dragonslayer (focusing on monsters is too broad). Anyone mind, suggestions etc


If your talking about using one my suggestion is the Bellator as it's the most flexible in martial combat. If your talking about making one then I suggest something along the lines of a mythic hunter on mythic nemesis. Hunter for a more general version, nemesis for a more specific version.

Also, for the other people here who want to move their stuff onto the wiki I now have a format guide on the wiki here http://mythos-compendium.wikia.com/w...tting_Template.

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## ZaneShadow

I've been working on a Mythic Commoner class, with the idea being that someone ordinary has a catalyst that turns them into a hero. Any advice or suggestions would be welcome.

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## Jakman217

> I've been working on a Mythic Commoner class, with the idea being that someone ordinary has a catalyst that turns them into a hero. Any advice or suggestions would be welcome.


I suggest looking at characters you think fit in the class and get inspiration from there.

As for more specific things, how about a mythos that allows an automatic type of ability check. Say so many times per day or week you may do an ordinarily impossible feat, such as lifting a giant monster, or shattering a cliff side with a punch to cause an avalanche that only you will survive.

How about a mythos (probably a shintai) that specifically makes you the bane of a their enemy. No matter what the character does, they will get a generally happy ending.

Maybe a mythos where they can get sparks of inspiration to overcome a challenge almost flawlessly.

Those are just two ideas I can think of for it.

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## roko10

Or a Shintai that automatically resurrects you when you die, but forbids you from living a normal life. The Call Knows Where You Live.

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## Zenna

> Jakman217
Hunter is TOO General, and nemesis isn't fitting at all of my class vision. Natsu, Alexstrasza, Nowi, St george, Dovahkiin is what I want to base my idea around

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## Vauron

I'm curious, how do you intend to distinguish your 'dragonslayer' from the Bellator? While I don't reconize all the names you mentioned, Bellator would work well for most of them. My gut says either a mythic supplement or a couple Favored Enemy-ish mythos for the Bellator. Perhaps that is just a failure of imagination on my part.

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## 7th son of sons

I'm curious: Why Nowi? I know Wyrmslayer is one of her skills, but her personality and role in the story never really make her out to be a dragonslayer like the others you listed.

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## Bluydee

> > Jakman217
> Hunter is TOO General, and nemesis isn't fitting at all of my class vision. Natsu, Alexstrasza, Nowi, St george, Dovahkiin is what I want to base my idea around


4/5 of the people you listed are either dragons or people with the powers of dragons. Not a good track record for slaying them, is it?  :Small Wink:

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## Jakman217

> > Jakman217
> Hunter is TOO General, and nemesis isn't fitting at all of my class vision. Natsu, Alexstrasza, Nowi, St george, Dovahkiin is what I want to base my idea around


By nemesis I meant more along the lines of the living bane of the being you hunt. A dragonslayer who reaches Mythos levels should be the bane of all dragons and should be both hated and feared by them. Even a Godslayer, a sidestep away from the original concept would do the same with gods and could kill them. Hence becoming a nemesis to an entire race of beings.

As for the examples you give, I am wont to agree that you should just make a specialized bellator since St. George, the Dovahkiin, already fit into the bellator idea. Natsu (from fairy tail I presume) would probably be more apt in the Kathados as he's more an elementalist than a fighter from what I know. Nowi, yeah, not sure where to put her as I've never played fire emblem, but what little I gleamed from the wiki doesn't really make her sound like a dragon slayer, and Alexstrasza (presumably from WoW) may be unique enough of a concept to not be put in a preexisting class but from the little I read she seems more like a dragon tamer than slayer.

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## vasharanpaladin

> I've been working on a Mythic Commoner class, with the idea being that someone ordinary has a catalyst that turns them into a hero. Any advice or suggestions would be welcome.


Kyon (or depending on the theories you subscribe to, Haruhi) might be someone to look at.  This lends more toward an archetype that _wants_ to blend into the background, but their narrative prevents it (Kyon), or someone who's just sick of being another face in the crowd and actively tries to gatecrash into someone else's story (Haruhi).  The Call Knows Where You Live versus Jumped At The Call.

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## Zenna

Well that's exactly it, when you look at dragons. The things slaying them are either Heros (These are the more bellator like guys) and Dragons, Pokemon Dragon type is effective against dragons, Nowi (yes her wyrmslayer skill is why i added her, you dont need to be grim to be a slayer) is effective against dragons, Natsu uses fire dragon magic, Dovahkiin has the soul of a dragon.
A bane idea would be cool sure. But its too general, and then I cant distinguish it from bellator which ideally I'd do through a heavy focus on the dragon aspect, taking on dragon elements. Finding, hunting dragons and slaying them for power.

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## Jakman217

> Well that's exactly it, when you look at dragons. The things slaying them are either Heros (These are the more bellator like guys) and Dragons, Pokemon Dragon type is effective against dragons, Nowi (yes her wyrmslayer skill is why i added her, you dont need to be grim to be a slayer) is effective against dragons, Natsu uses fire dragon magic, Dovahkiin has the soul of a dragon.
> A bane idea would be cool sure. But its too general, and then I cant distinguish it from bellator which ideally I'd do through a heavy focus on the dragon aspect, taking on dragon elements. Finding, hunting dragons and slaying them for power.


You could make it such that the Mythic Nemesis must focus on a specific type of creature or being and as they either kill their target or simply as they level up they gain abilities that negate or reflect the strengths of their targets and exploit their weaknesses. 

A Nemesis who focuses on dragons eventually gains the ability to ignore the defenses of dragons, reflect or ignore their breath weapons, fly after them so they can't run, and upon defeating them can add a scale or bone to his armor as a trophy that improves himself. But never becomes a dragon himself.

A Nemesis who kills gods could automatically ignore bonuses granted from divine ranks, remove the target's immortality, and withstand the god's power on their home plane. By drinking their blood he gains the ability to ignore an even stronger god's powers. But he never becomes a god.

A nemesis who kills mind flayers can't have his mind read, or eaten by them, ignores their grappling, and can negate any magical or martial abilities they have, and in turn devour their minds for knowledge and power. But, never becomes a mind flayer.

I mostly give the extra examples as turning the Nemesis into mythos class could work, but focusing on dragons exclusively does kind of limit the class and beg why it isn't part of another. While stealing or gaining power from his opponents is an interesting idea, the class should never turn them into what they hunt. 

This is just my thoughts though and if you don't follow the idea of the nemesis I may do it after I finish my Mythic Leader Class I'm currently working on.

Edit: And, as I think about it a Kreikiri may also have similar ideas, but is more about devouring all rather than a specific creature.

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## Zenna

> the class should never turn them into what they hunt.


Maybe for nemesis, but the world needs more dragons and that's where my idea is

EDIT: I want to get the idea across that a dragon slayer, is actually very little different then a dragon. In a lot of myths or fantasy works, those that are taking down dragons either use their enemies weapons against them. I know theres room for classic heros too, and to that end I plan to include them and work with a tag system, a Hero & Dragon tag wherein grabbing more hero mythos helps you to defeat dragons, while grabbing dragon mythos grants you their power. Sort of leave the option open for more knight based characters.
*Spoiler: Banner*
Show

imgur.com/fZ1A9Yd.png with only 5 posts i cant link yet.
Went with a silver dragon because they're sworn to destroy evil dragons and can shape shift and went with Kamui rather then Nowi because I think I could pull more inspiration

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## Zale

With that banner, Mythic Dragonslayer wouldn't be my first choice of theme. 

Mythic dragon warrior, maybe. A mythic dragon disciple, possibly- but Dragonslayer would be tertiary. 

But it that's what you're going for, by all means, I only worry that a focuses slayer class might run into situations where 90% of their class features don't work because they aren't fighting dragons.

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## Zenna

> Mythic dragon warrior, maybe. A mythic dragon disciple, possibly- but Dragonslayer would be tertiary.



I'm hesitant to make a mythos prestige class, and warrior could work, except for the classical knight theme which I wanted to include, simply so that this isn't just Mythos Dragon

the mythos not working on non dragons is something I've considered luckily being really good at piercing a dragons skin makes you good at stabbing in general so it's probably fine

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## Jakman217

> I'm hesitant to make a mythos prestige class, and warrior could work, except for the classical knight theme which I wanted to include, simply so that this isn't just Mythos Dragon
> 
> the mythos not working on non dragons is something I've considered luckily being really good at piercing a dragons skin makes you good at stabbing in general so it's probably fine


To be fair you don't need to make a prestige class for it to be a mythic dragon disciple. If you think a grand narrative concept can come from a dragon disciple, then it can be made into a mythos class. The only real hindrance would be getting enough material to constitute a full class from level 1-20. Just for ease of connection as to what would make it There's the rough guideline for making a mythos class mechanically http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...postcount=1276. Then here's the overarching guideline for the mythos class's fluff from Xefas (it's the last spoiler) http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...rew-Discussion.

And as a note just so I don't sound like I'm trying to scare you, you can and should use inspiration from characters and other people here.

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## Zenna

I'll get my ideas posted soon so I can get more targeted feedback 
I've already thought of how I want the basics to go and the name whatever it is isn't as important to me as the mechanics

at this point through I'll keep slayer in the name, I don't want to focus solely on dragon attributes & I want to be a. it varied, dragon warrior is cool but Beowulf and St George are not really that

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## Lanth Sor

So I have started work on Mythic Enhanced Being. I started with Claymore, and will be bringing Witchers, and Warcraft/diablo Demon Hunters to the table. Each one will have a different Source feat providing the start down a specific path. They all start with special rituals and what not leading to becoming the race/template, then you pick your specific path referring to the feats. I'm not intimately familiar with Claymore abilities so its been a little bit of a struggle, but I've done my best. Currently I have a player that is playing the race and they where the idea began. I could use plenty of advice for what the 2 Exceptional, 2 Fantastic, and 1 Legendary for them should be. Once claymore are complete I'll follow up with Witchers, then Demon Hunters.

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## Jakman217

What do you mean by Enhanced Being?

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## vasharanpaladin

> What do you mean by Enhanced Being?


From the look of the thing, augmented humanoids.  The eponymous _Claymore_ warriors (of the manga, mind), Warhammer 40k's Space Marines, and presumably there'll be others.

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## Lanth Sor

Correct vash, I hadn't even thought about Space Marines, and i talk about 40k all the time.
In regards to the mythic slayer pathfinder has a slayer class. It's a ranger rogue mix getting sneak attack and favored enemy.


Ok so I think I have the Enhanced Being Abberation done Please review I'm Looking for balancing Help.[Peach]

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## DracoDei

Sudden inspiration regarding the mythic wealth accumulator: What about a mechanic that allows the standard "spend 1 XP, gain 5 GP worth of savings on an item" crafting mechanic to where you can dedicate a separate hoard of wealth and gain 1/5th the GP value in XPs? It is completely insane at first glance, but I think it might be something that could be refined to work within the Mythos system... I mean that as an Exalted Mythos? Probably underpowered actually... so it should fit somewhere, right?

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## Lanth Sor

That sounds horrible and hilarious. But as much as I like the idea, I feel the safer bet would be to have a benefit based on amount of gold in your hoard. If your going to do XP i advise 25g=1xp as in crafting, that is the equivalence provided.

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## Jakman217

For the Mythic Wealth Accumulator, how about a non-standard BAB? Their BAB is based off of their wealth. Or, they can bling out their gear with random gems and stuff, effectively loosing no 'wealth' in terms of useless shiny things, but it acts as though they were enchanted for them alone? Being dressed in expensive clothes counts as a charisma buff, having expensive glasses makes you look smarter therefore you are. A bit silly, but a bit in line with MONEYH IS POWAH motif in my mind.

The craziest yet, they store XP in Gold? They gain no XP and instead gain gold. Their total value*Some modifier is equivalent to the XP of their character. So any penny spent is lost XP.

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## DracoDei

I continue the long, slow process of working on the Phileotheysia. A few more concerns:
1.) Most of their early-level basic cl ass abilities aren't as strongly sacrificial as their mythos and excellencies, except in the meta-textual/meta-game sense that they are related to heal-botting, and very few people want to play the heal-bot. Later on of course they get their revivification abilities, which cost them ability burn (although they can just use a clerical scroll of the revivification spell to avoid that if they prefer). Is this going to confuse people too much?
2.) If I'm almost, but not quite satisfied with a given mythos or excellency, should I include it, or keep it separate until I can polish it some more? What about in-line editing questions for my readers? Would (()) work or should I use spoilers?
3.) Do I need to get someone to write me a Titan-story, force myself to do it even though that whole aspect of things never appealed to me, or just leave that out? I've mentioned this issue in a vague sort of way before, but I don't think I've been this clear with how I said it.

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## Lanth Sor

> I continue the long, slow process of working on the Phileotheysia. A few more concerns:
> 1.) Most of their early-level basic cl ass abilities aren't as strongly sacrificial as their mythos and excellencies, except in the meta-textual/meta-game sense that they are related to heal-botting, and very few people want to play the heal-bot. Later on of course they get their revivification abilities, which cost them ability burn (although they can just use a clerical scroll of the revivification spell to avoid that if they prefer). Is this going to confuse people too much?


While this can be fine its important to make any special abilities fun or thematic like counter balance cure at will with taking non lethal or something. And watch for mechanics not interrupting combat too much. While the agios shield is thematic it can be very disruptive if gm/party isn't prepared for it initiating on nearly every physical attack. I would advise making the counting as a exellency or something stating they count as a Cleric equal to class level with the healing domain for purposes magic item activation.




> 2.) If I'm almost, but not quite satisfied with a given mythos or excellency, should I include it, or keep it separate until I can polish it some more? What about in-line editing questions for my readers? Would (()) work or should I use spoilers?


Without seeing it I couldn't advise on completeness of abilities I prefer to see the full process and unfinished ideas as it helps get a full view of the classes direction, but that seems to rather unpopular thought on giants.




> 3.) Do I need to get someone to write me a Titan-story, force myself to do it even though that whole aspect of things never appealed to me, or just leave that out? I've mentioned this issue in a vague sort of way before, but I don't think I've been this clear with how I said it.


Draco if you not interested in the titan stuff and looking for someone to write it I'd be happy to assist. Just let me know the "Fantasy" of the class and I'll do my best. Check out the agios and archikos for samples of my work.

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## DracoDei

> While this can be fine its important to make any special abilities fun or thematic like counter balance cure at will with taking non lethal or something.


It seems to me like you are contradicting yourself here. Is it okay to have "necessary but boring, and non-sacrificial" stuff or not? I assume it is okay since you later suggest allowing a blanket ability to use clerical items (which I'm not going to do exactly because: CoDzilla).



> And watch for mechanics not interrupting combat too much.


The only time the abilities in question are likely to come up in combat come down to "I can use this clerical item to heal you" (and in-combat healing is still usually a bad idea), or "I can take 10 or 20 on some heal checks". 



> While the agios shield is thematic it can be very disruptive if gm/party isn't prepared for it initiating on nearly every physical attack. I would advise making the counting as a exellency or something stating they count as a Cleric equal to class level with the healing domain for purposes magic item activation.


Actually, something like that is a basic class feature from level one.



> Without seeing it I couldn't advise on completeness of abilities I prefer to see the full process and unfinished ideas as it helps get a full view of the classes direction, but that seems to rather unpopular thought on giants.


Have a link then.



> Draco if you not interested in the titan stuff and looking for someone to write it I'd be happy to assist. Just let me know the "Fantasy" of the class and I'll do my best. Check out the agios and archikos for samples of my work.


Please do!  The document is set up so that anyone can add comments, despite the fact that only I can actually edit the text itself.

EDIT: Or you can comment here of course.

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## Zenna

Hey guys, I figured I'd post what i have right now, lemme know your thoughts.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...yer&p=20337961

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## ThreadNecro5

> For the Mythic Wealth Accumulator, how about a non-standard BAB? Their BAB is based off of their wealth. Or, they can bling out their gear with random gems and stuff, effectively loosing no 'wealth' in terms of useless shiny things, but it acts as though they were enchanted for them alone? Being dressed in expensive clothes counts as a charisma buff, having expensive glasses makes you look smarter therefore you are. A bit silly, but a bit in line with MONEYH IS POWAH motif in my mind.
> 
> The craziest yet, they store XP in Gold? They gain no XP and instead gain gold. Their total value*Some modifier is equivalent to the XP of their character. So any penny spent is lost XP.


If you are talking about the class I am Woking on what you are suggesting here is similar to ideas I had but could never balance, but the ideas here are amazing, especially the 'no XP but gold' one. So now I'm thinking giving the class all bad saves, only two skill points/LV, and wizard BAB, but they use gold for XP and 'invest' into bonuses for them.

well, I'm of to 'brew.  :Small Cool:

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## Jakman217

> If you are talking about the class I am Woking [snip]


I'm actually not quite sure. I saw DracoDei post on it, and responded with my own idea. If he was saying his idea in regards to yours, then yes. If you want to use my ideas then go ahead, I'd love to help where I can.

Also, as a general reminder to those with mythos classes I still have the wiki up and there is a template you can use to add your own class to if you so wish. Though, I do suggest posting here also so comments can be seen by people here also. I've been bogged down with personal business so adding 7th son of sons stuff has been slow. I'd also like to add Xefas' stuff, but without permission I'd rather not accidentally step on toes.

Edit: Since the original post I've finished Elf, and added Ghost and Melanier in their entirety. Only 3 more from 7th son of sons left then I'm out of material to add with permission.

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## DracoDei

> I'm actually not quite sure. I saw DracoDei post on it, and responded with my own idea. If he was saying his idea in regards to yours, then yes. If you want to use my ideas then go ahead, I'd love to help where I can.


I'm not very good at remembering who posts what. I probably had no idea who the author of what I was responding to was when I wrote that.

Happy to have been of inspiration to whoever can use the idea, regardless of who I was TECHNICALLY responding to. That idea of mine is free to use for all.

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## Yasahiro

Greetings.

Some might remember me, some might not. But I am coming here with update on Mythic Grammarist.

Proper term would now be Mythic Programmer. Viewing laws and so on set by Lawgivers and Omphalos like code, editing variables and such. Great Wheel is technically like both Virtual Reality and regular Reality at the same time to them. Class will focus on [GLITCH] tagged Mythos, inspired by Missingno(creature and the class) which will spawn a Mythic Glitch race eventually, but also other tag of Mythos for proper editing, debugging, programming. It will, of course, still use ideas of grammarism. This class is meant to remain deliciously complex and yet understandable.

Possible people for Banner include Kayaba Akihiko(Sword Art), Sans(Undertale), some more people I had written down but forgot due to typing this on phone while list is on PC. Open to suggestions though.


I will also like to announce arrival of a new, original, race. And of course, their Mythos. But the race itself will work with non Mythos games too, of course.

The people of the banner may provide hints. Archer(EMIYA) from Fate Stay Night, Genos from One Punch Man, Orpheus from Persona 3.

Central theme of which parts the Mythos will build off and focus on? 
_Forge_

These are not warforged. This is something else...

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## Jakman217

Ok, so with a sudden, short burst of frantic work I've added All of 7th son of sons stuff to the wiki now. I also have Temotei's Askopar, and Rogthnor's WIP Rhapsados. 

All of the work done so far can be found HERE. I'll be working on adding Lanth Sor and Xefas stuff soon (I completely missed the thumbs up from Lanth about 2 or 3 pages back and feel silly now).

I'm also working on my Mythic Leader idea called the Megaligeti. I'll be adding that in soon enough and looking for input. It's got quite a bit of stuff, but will probably need some rebalancing.

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## silphael

I was thinking about working on a Mythic Ascendant, as in chinese styled Immortal without making it elemental based. I don't know when I'll have to advance that project, but it's slowly making it's way in my mind... not sure it will be good, however, when comparing it with my other homebrews ><

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## Jakman217

Ok, so during my break of copy/pasting other peoples mythos classes I've finally gotten my own up on the wiki here.

I also have a discussion thread on it here so that this isn't just a thread jacking and I can keep most of the comments easy to find.

Other than this, any help and comments would be appreciated on the thread, and I'll continue my work with ctrl+C and ctrl+V.

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## DracoDei

> I was thinking about working on a Mythic Ascendant, as in chinese styled Immortal without making it elemental based. I don't know when I'll have to advance that project, but it's slowly making it's way in my mind... not sure it will be good, however, when comparing it with my other homebrews ><


What can it hurt to try?



> Ok, so during my break of copy/pasting other peoples mythos classes I've finally gotten my own up on the wiki here.
> 
> I also have a discussion thread on it here so that this isn't just a thread jacking and I can keep most of the comments easy to find.
> 
> Other than this, any help and comments would be appreciated on the thread, and I'll continue my work with ctrl+C and ctrl+V.


Thank you very much for your hard work!

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## ThreadNecro5

I have some details for my Class that are semi-finalised for the first draft, posing below for opinions and to make sure I don't completely mess something up.

*Lore*:
*Spoiler*
Show


Money is a curious thing, for all it is is simple metal. Yet this is a simple metal that by its mere existence controls the fates of nations, over which the darkest of deeds and hardest of choices made, and to which all concerns become secondary once its scent hits the air.

This is a simple fact of life and like all other originated with the Titans and the Lawgivers, in this instance, the Gilded Wyrm. The Wyrm was a greedy being, indeed it invented the concept merely so it could own it, and in the war it acted in a mercantile role, it traded and sold between those who were buying. In the end it stood atop a pile of wealth which would form avalanches when visited by smaller beings, and with with stood a Lawgiver negotiator. One with a bargain that could only exist in abstract.

Whatever the trade was over bartering took a turn for the worse when the Lawgiver sweetened the deal with folly, an then with that deal made offered imprisonment for freedom, the Wyrm saw that it had plenty of freedom, yet no imprisonment taking the offer and so was bound.
That is how the all-consuming desire for wealth came to become part of existence and marked it ever after.



Class Feature (originally a mythos, was tweaked as I recall):

*Hordemaster*
*Spoiler*
Show

The pockets, bags, sacks, and other assorted containers carried by the Chrimatia all link to a personal endless realm (referred to as your vault) that may only be accessed only by you. Any valuables the Chrimatia possess (valuables here defined as an item that is traditionally thought of as of significant worth such as jewelry, fine ornaments, bars of gold, Magic Items, or even just money itself) can be placed within the vault as a free action. Any item within the vault may be converted into 50% of its value in GP as a free action.

You may access the items held within the vault as a free action, even should your hands be tied or you have no pockets available you may access this realm. When you die all the contents of the vault are found on your corpse, no matter how little sense it would make.

Additionally you may open a portal in order to transport you inside your vault by spending a minute in concentration.

By default a vault is a dark 15x15x15 room containing only a poor quality chandelier for light. In the center of the room is a 3ft tall pillar of cracked marble, on whose top is an empty sack of rough-spun wool that, when opened when empty, emits a small cloud of dust and a live bat or moth flies out (this disappears between visits). Should you possess any valuables within your vault, they are found in this room held within appropriate devices for display (e.g jewlery could be in a box or just on a table, works of art could be hung on the wall or in sufficient amount could form a separate area to function as a gallery).

Money within the vault fills the sack until it is overflowing, at which time the sack and pillar is replaced by a chest of some nature that, when full, is replaced by a pile of gold coins proportionate to the amount of coins within the vault. As the value of all items within the vault rises, the size and opulence of the vault also does so in proportion, generally appearing as a dwelling of a sort that the Chrimatia would inhabit given the amount of money they have available.

To leave your vault you must spend a full round action, which transports you to the same location form which you entered (or the closest space should it be occupied. When you leave your vault any items inside that are not valuables are destroyed.



The 'gain GP instead of XP and invest if for stat buffs' class feature is still in development. Also what do people think about a Shinai that turns the character into a dragon literally made of your fortune (I am thinking have it replace your HP with a value equal to the amount of gold you have, so your gold is then your HP as well as your EXP).

*Banner Characters:* (thank you to all who offered suggestions)
*Spoiler*
Show

Greed- Diablo Three

Greed- Full Metal Alchemist

Ultra Greed- Binding of Isaac

Scrooge McDuck- Disney

Larfleeze- DC Comics

Smaug- The Hobbit

Takarada - Kill La Kill

Greasusus Goldtooth- Warhammer Fantasy



*Some Assorted Exceptional Mythos:
The Toss of a Coin*
*Spoiler*
Show

_Prerequisites_: -
You may make a ranged touch attack to throw a handful of money as a standard action. You choose any single dice to roll (a D100 is treated as one dice in this case), the creature takes an amount of damage equal to the result of the dice roll and you lose an equal amount of GP.
If you cannot pay the full amount equal to the dice roll, you instead take the same amount of damage that cannot be healed in any way until you pay an amount of GP equal to the amount you could not pay by +50%.


*Mine*
_Prerequisites: -_
*Spoiler*
Show

As a standard action you can target a single item that is within 30ft that you can see, and which is light enough for you to carry within one hand. The target item is immediately transported to your hand. Should the item be on the person of a creature they gain a will save to resist loosing the item.

Instead of a single item you may instead take a number of coins equal to that you can hold in one handful. You must still be able to see the coins you wish to take.

_Basic manifestations:
Take it all_
When using this Mythos you may take any item which you can carry instead of having the limitation of carrying it in a single hand. Additionally instead to transporting it to your hand you may instead place it within your Vault.

_Window Shopping_
As a swift action you may call to yourself an exhaustive list of all items a single creature or container within 30ft possesses that are a valid size for this Mythos. This list is based on the personal belief of the target creature or the creature who placed the item within the container, so if the creature is under some disillusion as to the nature of an item, or an item is cursed and the creature is unaware you would receive incorrect information when using this Manifestation.

_Five Finger Discount_
When using this Mythos and successively take an item, all creatures apart form you must take a Spot check with the same DC as a Saving through brought about via a Mythos. On a failure the creature does not notice the item going missing and will not notice you carrying it for a minute afterword. 


*Gaze of greed*
_Prerequisites: -_
*Spoiler*
Show

You may spend a minute polishing a gold piece in order to copy the effect of a Scrying spell (the gold piece is used as the focus for the effect). For every 50GP you spend when using the effect, the target takes a -1 penalty on the will save.

Additionally as a move action, you may place a coin within your eye, embedding it inside. While a coin is so embedded you gain low light vision. Should you already possess low light vision you instead gain 60ft of darkvision, should you possess both your darkvision is extended by an additional 60ft.



Also I am beginning to work on another Mythos class at the same time to make a 'Mythic Nothing'. Just pointing this out in case anyone wonders why I am also posting about a completely different class in the coming days.

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## Jakman217

Do love the idea, this looks like a fun class to play. My only thing does it have to be a dragon? I'm not against the it, but being required to be a dragon feels ... limiting.

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## vasharanpaladin

> Do love the idea, this looks like a fun class to play. My only thing does it have to be a dragon? I'm not against the it, but being required to be a dragon feels ... limiting.


Dragons are traditionally associated with avarice in fantasy.  Also, y'know, he just said the Shintai would do that... your anthol is not required to take the Shintai in order to advance.

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## Bdrone

ThreadNecro5: with the exception of the Dragon stuff (can't say im EVER a fan of that stuff), i love the idea of this class that's the essence of greed. a core class ability that lets you store and convert things to gold, complete with the ability to duck into the dimension and wallow about in the gold? that's just awesome. Stealing items from other people just by going "MINE!"? chucking a piece of gold so big you kill someone with it but can blowback yourself? Scrying by looking through coins at someone? sweeet. plus, Chrimatia is a neat name.


not to mention that gp as xp mechanic really does sound interesting. I can't wait to see how that class fully pans out.

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## ThreadNecro5

> ThreadNecro5: with the exception of the Dragon stuff (can't say im EVER a fan of that stuff), i love the idea of this class that's the essence of greed. a core class ability that lets you store and convert things to gold, complete with the ability to duck into the dimension and wallow about in the gold? that's just awesome. Stealing items from other people just by going "MINE!"? chucking a piece of gold so big you kill someone with it but can blowback yourself? Scrying by looking through coins at someone? sweeet. plus, Chrimatia is a neat name.
> 
> 
> not to mention that gp as xp mechanic really does sound interesting. I can't wait to see how that class fully pans out.


Thank you, always nice to hear about someone enjoying your works.  As far a the 'DRAGON!' stuff it will be limited to just the Shintai, a Mythos that essentially makes you a half gold dragon, and another Mythos that if you have the 'half gold dragon' Mythos also grants you a breath weapon that deals DEX damage by turning things to gold, and creatures may be animated into your golden statue servants (if you remember the old cartoon Shaolin Showdown, its like the sapphire dragon from that).

The general idea is having a dragon subtheme because dragons are the archetypical powerful money hoarding fantasy creature.


Also an Excellency idea for anyone reading this:
What do you think about an excellency that jut flat out grants say 500-1000 GP per level you have when you take it? Make it able to be taken multiple times, and probably add a limitation of only being able to take it a number of times equal to your level to prevent Mythos point cheesing.

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## Jakman217

> The general idea is having a dragon subtheme because dragons are the archetypical powerful money hoarding fantasy creature.


What about king Midas? I think he's a far better representation of greed. Or the demon Mammon, who became wealthy in hell itself? Dragons get an unfairly high representation and while powerful, I think there are more interesting options than just be a dragon. Also, greed from FMA would be sub-par at this class, because he hardly got any gold in setting.

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## vasharanpaladin

> What about king Midas? I think he's a far better representation of greed. Or the demon Mammon, who became wealthy in hell itself? Dragons get an unfairly high representation and while powerful, I think there are more interesting options than just be a dragon. Also, greed from FMA would be sub-par at this class, because he hardly got any gold in setting.


Midas is more associated with short-sighted thinking (wishes that whatever he touched would turn to gold, without stopping to consider what that would entail) and hubris (what resulted in the aforementioned wish to begin with; he thought he'd outsmarted a god) than with greed specifically.  The _result_ is certainly appropriate to the concept, I certainly wouldn't look askance at a mythos that gives one the Midas touch, but as far as _embodiments_ of said concept go, Midas himself isn't one.

Mammon could probably stand to be referenced a few times in the fluff, but he's also not appropriate to think of as an _embodiment_ of avarice.  The serpent is temptation, the dragon is its more fantastic cousin.

And FMA Greed is not only appropriate, but nearly _required_.  Money isn't the whole end of avarice; Greed _wants_ people, he _wants_ friends or family.  He doesn't defend them because they're his _friends_, he defends them because they're _his_ friends.  Which makes him one of two characters listed for that banner that fall to the "white" end of the moral charts.

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## Jakman217

My problem is that dragons are overused and boring. And besides, if you look at eastern dragons wealth has little if anything to do with them. 

I think tainting a class based on a supreme greed, material hording, and ultimately shallow wealth doesn't need to turn to a dragon. It seems so rote and standard that I may as well make a mythic unarmed fighter and make become humanoid and go super saiyan as a shintai. It's overdone, and highly limiting to force a race change on a raceless concept. I think a demon, at least as an option, would be better.

If you want me to be more direct, creating a shintai which should be considered a central-most feature that forces an ephemeral concept like greed to become a specific creature is *painfully* limiting. What if I want to be a demon of greed? Maybe I want to effectively be a skeleton of pure gold? Maybe I want to be a misshapen blob of sentient gold that is so heartless and greedy that a snake moving on it's belly in the dirt cannot represent how low I stoop for wealth.

A dragon is a proud and vicious beast, but a dragon would not stoop for a singular dropped coin. Mammon was literally defined as always bent over looking for material wealth at all times, just as a true embodiment of greed should. It may be vicious, it may be eternally hungry, and have a temper that can be compared to dragons, but true Greed is without pride, dignity, or grace.

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## VoodooPaladin

Try focusing on the parts of dragons that have to do with wealth and greed, and leave out the rest. Have a hoard and guard it jealously, but what does wealth have to do with scales, wings, and breathing fire? Let him smell gold; let him smell _fear_. If greed is about more than shiny trinkets, then let him collect people, places, and concepts. A dragon is a tyrant. If this Mythos becomes a tyrant, it has to do so in a way that is still centered on Being Richer Than God. Otherwise you really should just go take a shot at Io's Mythos.

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## EdroGrimshell

> Try focusing on the parts of dragons that have to do with wealth and greed, and leave out the rest. Have a hoard and guard it jealously, but what does wealth have to do with scales, wings, and breathing fire? Let him smell gold; let him smell _fear_. If greed is about more than shiny trinkets, then *let him collect people, places, and concepts*. A dragon is a tyrant. If this Mythos becomes a tyrant, it has to do so in a way that is still centered on Being Richer Than God. Otherwise you really should just go take a shot at Io's Mythos.


This might be better represented by The President of The Company from The Gamer webtoon, adding people into a collective driven by the idea of gaining profit, able to spend money to buy back life to its members, buy lands and make things it doesn't want to happen not happen, etc. It's an even better representation of Greed than a dragon and is by far more interesting because it does what VoodooPaladin suggests, emphasized by me, letting them just _collect_, to _Hoard_, everything, not just gold, not just gems or works of art, or other valuable.

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## Jakman217

And I just realized I had another good example of a greed character. 'C: The Money of soul and possibility Control'. It's literally an entire setting where everyone's power is defined by money. Every single character and monster could fit in this class. 
Example characters.
Kimmimaro Yoga, the MC, would be an example, but he never really fight directly he leaves it to the next character. 
Msyu, his demon companion who is literally powered up the more money she (Kimmimaro) has and is able to burn money to fight stronger. 
The final option would be Masakaki, the banker and overseer of the realm they fight in. 

Seriously, if you want some inspiration, I suggest paying a look at this. Though it does have an economics bent, but that's rather fitting for the class.

Oh, and idea for a suicide/last resort attack from the show.

*Spoiler*
Show

Scorched Earth: You may as a full round action burn your wealth to explode yourself. for every 100 gp you burn you may deal either an additional d6 of fire damage, or increase the radius of the explosion by 5 ft. Reflex half, and the land is now on fire for 1 round/100gp.

Manifestations: Change element, more power, stuff about burning your less material assets, and other such stuff.

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## Zenna

When picking a mythos, do you gain a basic mani immediatly AND advanced next level?

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## Jakman217

> When picking a mythos, do you gain a basic mani immediatly AND advanced next level?


Yes, you gain a basic the level you gain the mythos and the advanced kicks in the next level. You don't have to necissarily chose the advanced the level before, but it's suggested.

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## 7th son of sons

Checking in between bouts of working, working on schoolwork, and working on my next mythos class, I'd like to add in my own suggestions for some classic Greed characters:

Wario: A Man who literally ignored a captured damsel to acquire more wealth, his entire motivation in Wario World was to get more money, and basically all his motivations in life are because he's a greedy b*stard.

Mr. Krabs: Sold Spongebob's Soul for 62 cents, will abandon his post for a penny, bathes in money, dates money, and has made a wide variety of terrible decisions in the name of, what else: Money.

Count Olaf: The amount of insane, evil, and downright rediculous things this man did in the name of the Baudelaire fortune is astounding.

Gilgamesh (Fate Version): He's incredibly insistant that everything of value is his, to the point of wanting the holy grail not to use it or because he wants the grail, but because he doesn't want anyone else to have it. As an added bonus, by the lore of the series, Gil used to actually own EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD. And that's impressive.

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## VoodooPaladin

> Mr. Krabs: Sold Spongebob's Soul for 62 cents, will abandon his post for a penny, bathes in money, dates money, and has made a wide variety of terrible decisions in the name of, what else: Money.


I made an attempt at a "Money Mythos" awhile back. Here's one from my notes. Meenah Peixes, from Homestuck. Regularly steals her friends' clothes and sells them back at a profit. Cheated the author of her own story out of its funding. Spent _multiple_ eternities sitting in her palace, counting her riches. And then grew up to become the unconditional Empress of the Universe, despite being implied to have never having actually ruled over anything in her life.

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## ImperatorV

> I made an attempt at a "Money Mythos" awhile back. Here's one from my notes. Meenah Peixes, from Homestuck. Regularly steals her friends' clothes and sells them back at a profit. Cheated the author of her own story out of its funding. Spent _multiple_ eternities sitting in her palace, counting her riches. And then grew up to become the unconditional Empress of the Universe, despite being implied to have never having actually ruled over anything in her life.


You forgot the multiple-story tall gold statue of herself.

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## VoodooPaladin

> You forgot the multiple-story tall gold statue of herself.


Thanks for the catch, there. Would you like some Prawn Shop to go with that?

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## ThreadNecro5

I have took on board the offered suggestions, I will make the dragon based stuff more customisable (if it was not clear the Shintai would not turn you into a literal dragon but more replace your body with all your money, which would them form into a dragon-like shape, if anything mechanics would likely be closer to a construct with partial swarm abilities, with a fly speed and breath weapon coming form different mythos). Oddly enough a lot of the ideas that were handed out were similar to ones I had but were jet to write up at the time.

Also, is it listed anywhere the value of a soul in GP?

Finely I have a couple of Fantastic mythos, the second of which I am on the fence between Fantastic or Legendary.

*A Wealth of Trust
Prerequisites*: - Must have at least three beings who consider you an ally (as defined below)
*Spoiler*
Show

You gain a +4 bonus on Diplomacy an Bluff checks when on allies. An ally is defined as a being who personally knows you, thinks of you in a non-negative light, and can generally be counted on to preform minor requests and show trust in you. Additionally whenever using aid another, you and all allies within 60ft increase the bonus by an amount equal to the number of allies within 60ft.

In addition to this whenever an ally is made to attempt to betray you or knowingly act against your interests, they gain a bonus of any saves/rolls to resist equal to half your Chrimatia level. Should no such roll be made, the initiator of the effect instead takes a penalty of all rolls to succeed equal to half your Chrimatia level.

_Advanced Manifestations:
Trust Me_
A number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier, you may mimic the effects of a Suggestion spell. Uses of this spell are specific to each ally, so if you had a charisma modifier of +3, you would have three uses on each individual ally, not a flat three uses.

_Willed goods_
When an ally dies, and you were not the one who killed them or knowing assisted in their death, you gain complete knowledge of all possessions they own, from jewels, land, and titles, to their underwear. You may select any one object they owned. Should the possession logically pass to someone else or another wishes to dispute your taking of it, then they must pass a will save. Should they fail you inherit the item and all believe it right that you do so (or at the very least do not complain about whatever oddity.).

_Armour of Comradeship_
You and all allies within 60ft succeed on attempt to use aid another with no roll needed. Additionally should you or an ally within 30ft become the target of an effect, you or an ally within that range may get in the way of it. Should they do this the original target may use aid another on the interrupter and they become the new target of the effect. Should they survive the interrupter may preform a standard action that must be used to attack the source of the effect they interrupted. Should a creature take a standard action in this way they loose their next rounds standard action.


*Weight of Avarice
Prerequisites*: -
*Spoiler*
Show

Should a being attempt to steal an something you own (be it the literal taking of an item, or a more metaphorical stealing such as through attempting to turn an ally against you, or to live on land you own without permission), they are (upon preforming the act, such as casting a spell to achieve the result, simply pocketing a gold coin, making a diplomacy check on your ally, or making the mental choice to settle on land you own) cursed. This curse, popularly dubbed Avarice, may be resisted with a will save and causes the cursed creature to slowly turn to gold, taking one point of Dexterity Drain for each hour they remain within a quarter of a mile of you, land you own, one of your ally's, or anything that is definitively yours. The curse is removed when the thief ends their attempts to take the possession from you, and it is returned (e.g. A coil is given back to you or a suitable representative, or a spell that turns an ally against you ends). Should the curse be removed the Drain becomes Damage. Outside of the quarter of a mile distance the drain instead becomes every 24 hours instead of each hour.

Should the item have been damaged since it was stolen returning it fails to remove the curse (for non material things damage constitutes permanent effects, including instantaneous magical effects or permanent mental trauma). Should the object be again stolen by, or traded to, another creature the one who now possesses the item also must save against Avarice as if they sole it, as well as the original thief. Thin continues to spread in a similar manner.
Should the creature fail to become cursed with Avarice and the item has not been returned to the vault, the creature must save to resist being cursed with Avarice every 24 hours. A creature reduced to zero Dexterity by Averice turns fully into a golden statue, with select parts of their anatomy, such as horns or teeth, occasionally becoming some type of precious gemstone instead.

Additionally you gain a melee touch attack that, should it hit a creature forces them to save against a similar affliction to Avarice that forces the creature to pass a Will save or take 1d4 Dexterity damage for a minute, with a will save to resist the damage each round. Should they be reduced to zero dexterity, they are turned to a golden statue as if by Avarice.

Creatures turned to gold by Avarice are worth 1000GP per HD they possessed to a minimum of 1000GP. This value does not count class levels.
By paying an amount of gold equal to the value of the golden statue you may animate it, which in mechanical terms is achieved through the statue turning back into the original creature, with class levels removed, and applying the Gilded template to them. If the creature has no HD, they gain one level of Warrior. You control all creatures with the Gilded template that you caused to gain the template, and all such creatures are transported to your Vault.

*Spoiler*
Show

*Gilded Template:
Size and Type*
Type changes to Construct.

*Hit Dice*
Racial HD are Replaced with an equal number of Construct HD

*Speed*
As typical for base creature

*Armour Class*
As typical for base creature

*Attack*
If they lack a natural attack, a Gilded creature gains a Slam attack as a Primary natural attack that deals 1d6 damage.

*Full Attack*
As typical for base creature

*Special attacks*
As typical for base creature

*Special qualities*
A gilded creature gains the mindless special quality, DR5/Adamantine or, should they already have any DR higher than 5, it instead becomes an equal amount of DR that is now penetrated by Adamantine.

*Abilities*
- Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma become 10 if they were higher, otherwise no change.

*Skills*
As typical for base creature

*Feats*
No change beyond the Mindless Quality.


_Basic Manifestations:
Breath of Golden Vapour_
You gain a breath weapon identical to your melee touch attack that may be used every 1d4 rounds. You may not use the touch attack when the breath weapon is recharging.

_Golden Servants_
You may transport a creature with the Gilded template form your Vault to a space within 10ft (creatures larger than medium may have their space extend beyond this point, just one of the spaces they take up must be within this radius) of you. You may only have a total HD of such creatures outside of you vault equal to four times your Chrimatia level.

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## vasharanpaladin

> Also, is it listed anywhere the value of a soul in GP?


_Book of Vile Darkness_ lists them at 250gp for one in larval form (naturally found in the Lower Planes), or 200gp for one in a receptacle (usually resulting from a spell such as _soul bind_ or _trap the soul_).

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## Defiantnight

> _Book of Vile Darkness_ lists them at 250gp for one in larval form (naturally found in the Lower Planes), or 200gp for one in a receptacle (usually resulting from a spell such as _soul bind_ or _trap the soul_).


It may have been a different book, but I seem to recall it also mentioning that increasingly powerful souls were worth more, without giving actual prices to them. I like to think that those are for commoner's souls, not level 30 wizard souls, but that's just me.

Edit: Weight of Avarice looks like a Legendary mythos, but I don't know how they're tiered.

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## vasharanpaladin

> It may have been a different book, but I seem to recall it also mentioning that increasingly powerful souls were worth more, without giving actual prices to them. I like to think that those are for commoner's souls, not level 30 wizard souls, but that's just me.


Yeah, it doesn't say exactly _whose_ souls.  _Lords of Madness_ also has a formula for determining slave costs (CR^2*100gp; round fractional CRs to 1), also noting that neogi will tend to jack up the price depending on other traits and who they're selling to.  "Other traits" being at a premium when you're talking about balls of light, this could probably also be adapted somehow?

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## JKTrickster

Sorry to pop back in here unannounced but was there ever any plans for a Mythos class based on the Moon?

We have one based on the Sun now, but was wondering if anyone had anything related to the Moon. As far as I know, the closest reference was the Mythic Lycanthrope Feat/Mythos.

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## VoodooPaladin

> We have one based on the Sun now, but was wondering if anyone had anything related to the Moon. As far as I know, the closest reference was the Mythic Lycanthrope Feat/Mythos.


Primal Fury was the one to come up with the idea. He called it the Somnari, but it wasn't completed. This is what I could find of it.

*Spoiler: Somnari Introduction*
Show

*The Somnari*

_"I think you're like me. A nameless, senseless queen, with many shapes, and an invisible kingdom. Not just black like Lord Square, or white like Ms. Viv's smile. A brilliant shade of purple... That's your real crown." ~Mabel; Zebra Girl_

I have no name... no True Name at least. I have given myself many titles though, such as the Great Dreamer, the Argent Madonna, the Queen-Mother of Storyfolk, the Ninefold Chimaera, and a host of others you can neither pronounce nor comprehend while awake; but they mean nothing. I am the Moon of the Lawgivers, and it was I who brought the First Night to the world, allowing it respite from my brother's burning glory. I still haven't received any thanks for that, by the way. But then... how could my siblings, or anyone else, think to thank me? I barely even exist.

The mind of a Primordial is such a curious thing, isn't it? It is a combination of a host of lesser minds, who are themselves combinations of those lesser than they. Unlike your kind, they have no ability to simply "forget" that which comes to mind, as that would require an entire legion of entities to do the same. No, everything that is discarded has to go somewhere. As you may have guessed by now, I am the byproduct of the Sun's conception, making me his antithesis, his foil, and his shadow. Where he drags others down the path to his glory bound by unbreakable virtues, I guide them to their own with transient whispers and fevered visions. While he has protected allies with the bulwark of his unquenchable courage, I would feed them to their darkest fears, proving they can protect themselves... should they survive. And where he would strike his foes down with unquestionable purity, I would heap upon them imaginary sins such that they crumble under their weight, leaving them utterly crippled with suicidal shame.

So, it seems you have stumbled into my story, little mortal; tread carefully, for it is one of thankless glory and horrid nightmares. You will fade from the thoughts of others just as dreams fade from the waking mind. Your eyes will see the world not as it is, but as it could be, as it wishes to be, and as it must never be. You are my child now, my Somnari, and you are doomed to madness. But fear not sweetling, for the road to insanity is paved with indescribable wonders.


*Spoiler: Planned Somnari Mythos*
Show

*What A Day For A Daydream*
Prerequisite:-

_I do not govern only the dreams that come at night, my child. I rule even those idle fancies that constantly drift in and out of your minds. I do so love how, even in the midst of a terrible conflict, your thoughts can wander and touch upon the most ridiculous of notions. I think your kind underestimates just how valuable a short attention span can be._

In order to use this Mythos, you must take a move action to roll a Will Save (DC 10 + Charisma Modifier + Class Level/2), and fail. You CANNOT fail this roll intentionally. If you succeed in failing, your mind drifts away, and you begin to daydream. While you are daydreaming, you gain a bonus to your Will Save equal to your Charisma modifier, but you can only move at half your base land speed. You may not move beyond this speed, regardless of your other modes of transportation. This state lasts as long as you care to maintain it. You take no other penalties, but you may take no hostile actions while daydreaming. If you do, the state ends immediately.

This lethargic state is incredibly infectious; as a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, you may sigh or yawn. All who hear this expression of exhaustion must succeed on a Will Save (DC 10 + Charisma Modifier + Class Level/2), or take 1d6 non-lethal damage per two Somnari levels. As their own fatigue sets in, they drift closer and closer to dreamland; if a creature takes enough non-lethal damage from this ability to equal their current hit point total, they fall asleep. When undead are subjected to this ability, they feel the call of the grave, and begin to fall apart; undead take a like amount of lethal damage from this ability.

*Advanced*
_It's Such A Beautiful Day, Isn't It? (Requires 4 Ranks in Diplomacy):_ While daydreaming, you may ask someone about the state of the weather, or something equally as meaningless to the current situation. If you succeed on a Diplomacy check opposed by your target's Sense Motive check, they also begin daydreaming. They gain none of the benefits you get from daydreaming, only the reduction in speed, and the inability to act in a hostile manner for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. If they are attacked, this state ends immediately. Once a creature successfully saves against this ability, they cannot be affected by it again for 24 hours. This a language-based mind-affecting ability.

When you use this on an ally that is suffering from a mind-affecting ability, they are allowed another saving throw with an additional bonus equal to your Charisma modifier.

_Just Five More Minutes:_ In response to a hostile action, you may politely ask your attacker to leave you alone for a little while. If they succeed on a Will Save (DC 10 + Charisma Modifier + Class Level/2), their attack continues. If they fail however, they begrudgingly leave you alone for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier, choosing to attack someone else. If there is no one else they wish to attack, they impatiently wait for the duration instead. A creature can only be affected by this ability once every 1d4 rounds. If your attacker fails this save by 10 or more, they are compelled to leave you alone for five minutes.

If you have fallen asleep due to the 'I Fell Asleep Beneath The Flowers' manifestation, the DC for this ability increases by 1 for every tier of Mythos you have access to.

_I Fell Asleep Beneath The Flowers:_ If you fail a saving throw against a mind-affecting ability while daydreaming, you may neutralize it by taking an immediate action to fall asleep. While sleeping, you are immune to mind-affecting abilities, and gain a dodge bonus to your AC equal to your Charisma modifier. This state lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier, and cannot be ended prematurely. If you fall asleep in, or somehow end up in, a harmful area you may take move actions to remove yourself from it. Upon learning this manifestation, you can no longer be caught flatfooted or be coup de graced while sleeping.


*The Sandman Cometh*
Prerequisite:-

_Twilight has always been my favorite time of day... or night, depending on how you look at it. As I drag the cloak of night across the sky, I place a single grain of silver sand upon each eye of every mortal about to drift off to sleep, that they might gain entry into the Region of Dreams. Just between you and me, I like splashing the stubborn ones with a little extra; they make the most delightful sounds when they finally doze off._

You can conjure magical silver sand seemingly from nowhere. You can splash this sand in your opponent's face as a melee touch attack, or throw it as a ranged touch attack out to 60ft; you may extend this range to 120ft by halving the damage. It deals 1d8 non-lethal damage per two Somnari levels. This damage becomes lethal when used against undead creatures, such is the power of the call to the Final Rest. Rather than Strength or Dexterity, you gain a bonus to attack and damage equal to your Charisma modifier.

It must be noted that using the sand in this way is NOT considered a hostile action for the purposes of the 'What A Day For A Daydream' Mythos.

*Basic*
_Bring Me A Dream:_ By sprinkling this sand over the eyes of a sleeping or unconscious creature, you can give them exceptionally pleasant dreams. In addition to pleasant dreams, dying creatures you use sleep-sand on are automatically stabilized. Each round spent sleeping heals the target for a number of hit points equal to half the damage of your sleep-sand. The target sleeps for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier, waking early if they are fully healed, or if you choose to wake them. If a hostile action is taken against a character sleeping in this way, they awaken immediately, and may defend themselves normally. Using sand in this way is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

_Make Him The Cutest That I've Ever Seen:_ Anyone struck by your sand must succeed on a Will Save (DC 10 + Charisma Modifier + Class Level/2), or be Fascinated by you for (Charisma Modifier) rounds.

*Advanced*
_Don't Have Nobody To Call My Own:_ If a creature is benefiting from a status effect, such as barbarian's rage or a spell, they must make a Will Save (DC 10 + Charisma Modifier + Class Level/2) when struck by your sand. If they succeed, nothing happens and they are immune to this effect for 24 hours. If they fail, they lose a single beneficial effect of your choice to the bottomless void of ennui and despair.

_Please Turn On Your Magic Beam:_ By collecting the sand in your hand and softly blowing upon it, you create a stream of sand that refracts light so beautifully it's no wonder others mistake it for moon-beam. You may deliver your sleep-sand in a line attack that requires a Reflex Save (DC 10 + Charisma Modifier + Class Level/2) to avoid. This line extends out 15ft per tier of Mythos you have access to. You can only use this attack once every 1d4 rounds. You may also create a cone attack with a great sweeping gesture out to the same distance, though you may only use this method once every 2d4 rounds.


*I Fell Asleep Beneath The Flowers*
Prerequisite:-

_It almost breaks my heart to hear that so many mortals think time spent sleeping is time wasted. Almost. It doesn't matter how they may feel about it, they know that without sleep, they would be reduced to shambling wretches within days. I sometimes wonder what they find so difficult about a few hours of rest. Seems like the simplest thing in the world to me._

As a full round action, you can fall asleep. Often times, you will immediately fall prone, though you may remain standing by leaning on a wall, tree, cane, or other similar object. Regardless of your position, your tossing and turning always seems to keep you just out of harms way, allowing you to retain your Dexterity bonus. While sleeping, you gain a +2 bonus to your Will save for each tier of Mythos you have access to. If you do fail a Will save against a mind-affecting ability, it takes a full round for you to wake up before it can take effect. You can take no actions while sleeping, unless you possess another Mythos or manifestation that says otherwise. You may sleep as long as you like, though it takes another full-round action to awaken.

This lethargic state is incredibly infectious; as a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, you may sigh or yawn. All who hear this expression of exhaustion must succeed on a Will Save (DC 10 + Charisma Modifier + Class Level/2), or take 1d6 psychic damage per two Somnari levels.

Upon learning this Mythos, you can no longer be caught flatfooted or coup de graced while sleeping, nor are you considered helpless.

*Basic*
_A Sleep Like Death:_ You gain Hibernate as a bonus feat. In addition, you can sleep for any length of time without food, water, or even breathing. You may be quite hungry or thirsty upon waking, but suffer no ill effects. By purchasing this manifestation a second time, you heal 1 point of ability drain if you sleep for 8 uninterrupted hours. If you sleep for 24 full hours, you heal 2 points of ability drain.

_Rain-Or-Sleet Ignorance:_ So long as you sleep, you gain a resistance of 5 against fire, cold, electricity, acid, and sonic damage. You may purchase this manifestation up to three times, each purchase beyond the first adding 5 to your resistances.

*Advanced*
_Just Five More Minutes:_ If you fail a will save against a charm or compulsion effect while asleep, you may delay it for a while, opting to sleep a little longer instead. Each round you wish to stay asleep, you must succeed on an opposed Charisma check. Both you and your opponent receive the following bonuses (HD + Charisma Modifier). If you manage to beat their check five times, the effect is completely neutralized. This check is made as a free action at the beginning of your turn and your opponent's turn.

_I Dream Of You Amid The Flowers:_ While sleeping, you dream of your friends, safe and happy. While sleeping, choose an ally. They gain one of the following bonuses: a deflection bonus to their AC, or a bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, or Will saving throws; this bonus is equal to your Wisdom modifier. You may take a move action to provide this bonus to a different ally, or change the type of bonus an ally is receiving. This effects characters regardless of distance, even across planes.

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## Defiantnight

I find it hilarious that you can yawn and make your enemies sleepy, or make them wait a few minutes to attack while you catch a few more Z's.  :Small Big Grin:

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## Lanth Sor

So I'm working on an idea for a Mythic Mage. It uses essentia to power its Stuff. As far as spells I was needing to define where issues would arise for making things at will. The first point I have is you gain Highest Mental Modifier + 2 per level essentia. And may only invest 1 + 1 ever three levels past one. SO 4th(2)/7th(3)/10th(4)/13th(5)/16th(6)/19th(7). 

By investing essentia equal to the spell level you gain the ability to cast the spell. Now I was planning on being able to cast spells at-will as soon as you gain access to them. But i know there are some spells that would be just broken, IE pathfinder witches get cure light wounds at level 1. Immediate thoughts would be to have it be at will but limiting the effects on a single target or effects lasting hours being changed to 24 hour duration and only one instance being active per time prepared.

An alternative way to mitigate the problem would be to take a Shadow Magic Approach. You invest enough to meet the spell level and gain it as an arcane spell 1/day for every 1 you invest over the minimum you gain an extra casting. If you invest 2 over the spell level it is cast as a spell like ability. If you invest 5 over the level it is cast as a supernatural ability. So a 2nd level spell would be arcane 2-3 essentia would be cast arcane spell, 4-6 essentia would be cast a spell-like abilities and at 7 essentia invested they would be supernatural abilities. If a 0 level spell is chosen it is usable at will and becomes spell-like at 4th level and supernatural at 13th level.

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## Tacitus

My feeling for Mythic Mage has always been there either should not be one or they should not grant spells but rather have each mythos give a related family of effects that scale with level. Similar to learning a sphere of influence, take a mythos to gain fire effects. Burn with flames, fire swords, fireballs, fire elementals, the fire of inspiration/leadership, etc. Healing, and suddenly start learning the entire healing subschool. Bindings. A massive pile of CC effects.

That or gain components of spells and every "spell" they cast is a lego mishmash of these components. I cast an Adjective Noun that Verbs Nouns. Blazing Sword that Wields Itself. Chilling Bolts that Weakens Enemies. Massive Summon that Taunts Foes. Chained Bolt that Heals Allies. Healing Song that Cleanses Allies. Build your own spells dammit! XP

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## Lanth Sor

While I do understand the merit of build your own spells it has been my experience that system can be inherently Broken(Same issue with Technology based on real science). Prime example being the ridiculous Chaos Mage(had a player at level 4 make party member glow with the intesnity of the sun literally and then make a black hole and for his final magic trick he mad a ring of wish out of a rock that he could not use and lasted 1 round. To revive the party member killed by the black hole.) While the shenanigans lead to awesome story that is so unreasonable. There is a mitigation in the forms of paths of chaos where you hit 10 crit fails and you cease to be a character period, with no way to undo it including true resurrection and wish/miracle. 

While doing individual mythos providing access to basic abilities may work I am very leery of anything free form as being used as one thing I've found like cancer is the phrase "At DM Discretion" Which is next to required for free form systems.

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## Jakman217

I suggest you take a look at the Sphere's of power books from PF (3pp). Its a lot more freeform than the standard spell system, and removes both the first few levels weakness while removing the high level godmode engage section. 

If you want a copy of it pm me and I'll see about sending it to you. It may not be exactly what your looking for but it may help you a bit.

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## ThreadNecro5

I just had a brainwave with applying a GP cost to a soul. what if the cost was the expected wealth by level of the creature? Counting racial HD into the final number.

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## JKTrickster

> Primal Fury was the one to come up with the idea. He called it the Somnari, but it wasn't completed. This is what I could find of it.
> 
> *Spoiler: Somnari Introduction*
> Show
> 
> *The Somnari*
> 
> _"I think you're like me. A nameless, senseless queen, with many shapes, and an invisible kingdom. Not just black like Lord Square, or white like Ms. Viv's smile. A brilliant shade of purple... That's your real crown." ~Mabel; Zebra Girl_
> 
> ...


That looks so promising as a start! The emphasis on dreams and sleep looks really nice!

But after reading the way the Moon won its challenges, I wonder how the class can even be structured? A Mythos class based on the moon?  What mechanics would it use? What type of class would it look like? 

I'm obviously very interested but its hard to even think about where to start...

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## Lanth Sor

That would be terrifying. Also I strongly agree that Fate Stay Gilgamesh embodies greed, he also embodies royalty, king of kings. 

What would be defined as the bases for magic, I have; Air, Water, Earth, Fire, Cold, Acid, Electricity, Sound, force, charm, Compulsion, Foresight, far-sight, Identification, Summoning, Teleportation, Creation, Destruction, Shaping, Reconstruction, Enhancing, Animation, Reanimation, Healing, Repairing, necrotic infusion(inflict spells), Restoration(non +/- energy based), Figment, Phantasm, Emotion, Protection, Purging(dispel), Calling, Shadow, glamer, Pattern, Polymorph. 

Right now for Magos I'm thinking Van Hohenheim(FMA), Xerath(LOL), Aegwynn(Warcraft), Doctor Strange(Marvel), Caster(Fate Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works), Nethys(Pathfinder God of Magic), still working on the roster.

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## VoodooPaladin

> That looks so promising as a start! The emphasis on dreams and sleep looks really nice!
> 
> But after reading the way the Moon won its challenges, I wonder how the class can even be structured? A Mythos class based on the moon?  What mechanics would it use? What type of class would it look like?


Well, to be fair, the Moon as described is the Moon. A Somnari is merely an Anthol of the Moon's Mythos. As an adult, fully-matured Titan, the Moon will have attained Sempiternal Mythos, and is thus at minimum almost level 30. A Titan is a microcosm, and therefore need not expend wealth to innovate Mythos; one can assume she has every Mythos that a Somnari can qualify for. The difference is a matter of raw _scope._

I've actually thought about this before. Still have notes for a Lunar Mythos of a different sort, right here. Not very good, but eh, whatever. The big thing about Somnari is that they're sold as dreamers, but all we got was sleep. I actually think I remember coming up with a neat quote to help refocus it. Something like...

*The Moon does not cast illusions. She is illusion. But you can't look away: what right have you, when lies tell truth?*

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## khadgar567

> That would be terrifying. Also I strongly agree that Fate Stay Gilgamesh embodies greed, he also embodies royalty, king of kings. 
> 
> What would be defined as the bases for magic, I have; Air, Water, Earth, Fire, Cold, Acid, Electricity, Sound, force, charm, Compulsion, Foresight, far-sight, Identification, Summoning, Teleportation, Creation, Destruction, Shaping, Reconstruction, Enhancing, Animation, Reanimation, Healing, Repairing, necrotic infusion(inflict spells), Restoration(non +/- energy based), Figment, Phantasm, Emotion, Protection, Purging(dispel), Calling, Shadow, glamer, Pattern, Polymorph. 
> 
> Right now I'm thinking Van Hohenheim(FMA), Xerath(LOL), Aegwynn(Warcraft), Doctor Strange(Marvel), Caster(Fate Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works), Nethys(Pathfinder God of Magic), still working on the roster.


agreed with gilgamesh aka ultimate greed with unlimited ego works( guys ego need his own universe he is beaten in several paths( even in fanon) and bastard never changes or get the idea) and aegwynn is quite of ( dont play mmo but personaly guarantee effing a dark god shows her power very well), plus caster from unlimited blade works just wants to find a new home and love ( check sakura portion of next war)

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## Lanth Sor

> and aegwynn is quite of ( dont play mmo but personaly guarantee effing a dark god shows her power very well), plus caster from unlimited blade works just wants to find a new home and love ( check sakura portion of next war)


You are just confusing me I'm referring to mythic mages and who should be in the banner. But Aegwynn used magic to extend her life hundreds of years past her mortal existence, on top of soloing the most powerful force in the burning legion. Caster may have had simple goals in the end but she was an indisputable master mage. I'm looking for mages that look at magic and refuse convention and create their own because convention cant comprehend how to manage their power.

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## khadgar567

> You are just confusing me I'm referring to mythic mages and who should be in the banner.


yes

But Aegwynn used magic to extend her life hundreds of years past her mortal existence, on top of soloing the most powerful force in the burning legion.[/QUOTE] she do that to keep her son medivh safe from bunch of power thirsty politics obsessed mages of tirisfall  


> Caster may have had simple goals in the end but she was an indisputable master mage. I'm looking for mages that look at magic and refuse convention and create their own because convention cant comprehend how to manage their power.


 medea in that version is came from nearly age of gods so she cast with true names rather than current chant based style of UBW when

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## Lanth Sor

I feel like where having different conversations. Are you saying they are bad options or reinforcing them as good ones?

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## EdroGrimshell

I think this is relevant to the current topic of Mythic Hoarder

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## Zale

> That would be terrifying. Also I strongly agree that Fate Stay Gilgamesh embodies greed, he also embodies royalty, king of kings. 
> 
> What would be defined as the bases for magic, I have; Air, Water, Earth, Fire, Cold, Acid, Electricity, Sound, force, charm, Compulsion, Foresight, far-sight, Identification, Summoning, Teleportation, Creation, Destruction, Shaping, Reconstruction, Enhancing, Animation, Reanimation, Healing, Repairing, necrotic infusion(inflict spells), Restoration(non +/- energy based), Figment, Phantasm, Emotion, Protection, Purging(dispel), Calling, Shadow, glamer, Pattern, Polymorph. 
> 
> Right now for Magos I'm thinking Van Hohenheim(FMA), Xerath(LOL), Aegwynn(Warcraft), Doctor Strange(Marvel), Caster(Fate Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works), Nethys(Pathfinder God of Magic), still working on the roster.


Very modern. No Circe or Merlin; no book based characters either. 

I wouldn't make a mythic wizard using the spell system to be honest, that defeats the point of making a mythos class. I'd probably try to create at will/limited abilties that emulated the feeling of fictional magic without using spells.

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## JKTrickster

> Well, to be fair, the Moon as described is the Moon. A Somnari is merely an Anthol of the Moon's Mythos. As an adult, fully-matured Titan, the Moon will have attained Sempiternal Mythos, and is thus at minimum almost level 30. A Titan is a microcosm, and therefore need not expend wealth to innovate Mythos; one can assume she has every Mythos that a Somnari can qualify for. The difference is a matter of raw _scope._
> 
> I've actually thought about this before. Still have notes for a Lunar Mythos of a different sort, right here. Not very good, but eh, whatever. The big thing about Somnari is that they're sold as dreamers, but all we got was sleep. I actually think I remember coming up with a neat quote to help refocus it. Something like...
> 
> *The Moon does not cast illusions. She is illusion. But you can't look away: what right have you, when lies tell truth?*


I'm trying to get an idea for what an Anthol for the Moon should even _be_. If the Sun embodies Narrative-Ending-Perfection, a literal Mary Sue character, than what does the Moon represent?

Beyond the idea of sleeping and dreaming, I'm trying to brainstorm what an Anthol would even be capable of doing. Most of the stories and fluff surrounding the Moon emphasize her cleverness. The quote I like best about the moon is this one:




> - a challenge delegated to the one among the Lawgivers that they feared most, not their most powerful champion, in the form of the Sun, but to the one whose truthless nature allowed her to darken the Sun's unstoppable light, to melt his unbreakable heart, and to turn aside his unimpeachable valor. The Moon was never the smartest god, but she approached her problems from angles that greater minds had never even considered, she was not the strongest, but her victory conditions rarely required her to be, and rarely aligned with her opponent's.


I know that obviously allows for Illusions (and the whole Sleeping aspect is pretty nice too). But the Moon isn't the smartest (or the most creative, which might be Design or something). The Moon is....the trickiest? What other aspects might fall under "Trickster" aside from Illusions?

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## vasharanpaladin

> I'm trying to get an idea for what an Anthol for the Moon should even _be_. If the Sun embodies Narrative-Ending-Perfection, a literal Mary Sue character, than what does the Moon represent?
> 
> Beyond the idea of sleeping and dreaming, I'm trying to brainstorm what an Anthol would even be capable of doing. Most of the stories and fluff surrounding the Moon emphasize her cleverness. The quote I like best about the moon is this one:
> 
> 
> 
> I know that obviously allows for Illusions (and the whole Sleeping aspect is pretty nice too). But the Moon isn't the smartest (or the most creative, which might be Design or something). The Moon is....the trickiest? What other aspects might fall under "Trickster" aside from Illusions?


If the Sun is the Protagonist, then the Moon is that weird koan-spouting monk who deliberately twists definitions just to make a point.

A mythos associated with the Moon might give benefits for abusing Exact Words, or for glibly lying through your teeth.  No benefits that might lend themselves toward actually _succeeding_, but lots that _prevent failure_.  She doesn't have to make you lose, only ensure that you don't win.

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## ImperatorV

> She doesn't have to make you lose, only ensure that you don't win.


This. Both of the moon vs sun challenges were won/forced to a draw by abusing the rules of the game. Fights against a moon Anthol should be decided before they start, frustrating, and/or inconclusive. Or the Anthol just gets what they want without needing to win. Changing, twisting, and abusing the rules of the game is a given.

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## vasharanpaladin

> This. Both of the moon vs sun challenges were won/forced to a draw by abusing the rules of the game. Fights against a moon Anthol should be decided before they start, frustrating, and/or inconclusive. Or the Anthol just gets what they want without needing to win. Changing, twisting, and abusing the rules of the game is a given.


"Talking with Rin is like playing chess with a supercomputer who does seemingly random moves as if to mock everything you know about chess. It's like that, but with human interaction. And even if I win, it feels like losing."

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## VoodooPaladin

Anthols don't just do things, they _become_ those things. A Somnari, therefore, does not merely become able to inflict and manipulate illusions, but actually cedes portions of her literally reality, and in turn projects dream-like unbeing into the world around her. Think Lewis Caroll's Red King, who dreams Wonderland into being. Think Azathoth, Lovecraft's Blind Idiot God that must never be allowed to wake. Think Inception or Total Recall, where the line between fantasy and reality is not just blurry, but intentionally impossible to determine.

There was a thing Xefas said, during the early discussion between him and Primal. Something to the effect of "if you looked at the Moon with a True Seeing effect going, I don't think you'd see anything at all". That's what I based my idea on. She's not _only_ the trickiest - she is a literal walking, talking trick upon your every sense and perspective, both real and hypothetical. Her words are no more manipulations than statements of the obvious. She really is only as cruel as you would be to yourself. She really is only as kind as you would be to your worst enemy.

I don't see the Sun as Narrative-Shattering perfection. Perfection is the Empyrean's job description. The Sun's nature is one of never backing down, never letting oneself be bested or broken. Never allowing 'you' to be redefined, corrupted, or otherwise be made less real or meaningful. That's why I see the Moon as being _less_ real, less solid and pure, but somehow no less true. Like the silvery sea she turns, carelessly and yet like clockwork, she doesn't fight - not because she has a brilliant plan, but because she honestly has no ego to defend. No purity to question. No true self to unmake. She just... is? I think?

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## Jakman217

So I remade my thread for my class to make it easier to access for people. It should be relatively clean.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...1#post20393871

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## ThreadNecro5

> I think this is relevant to the current topic of Mythic Hoarder


Indeed it is. thank you for posting this, I can use some of it as the opening quote for the class. Also the guy may have found a place on the banner.


in other news of the class, I have put the 'GP=EXP' class feature into working order, just need advice on weather the GP cost for the buffs are right. for reference the class has wizard BAB, all bad saves, and is only proficient in light armour and simple weapons.

*Money is Power*
*Spoiler*
Show

From 1st level a Chrimatia ceases to gain experience points and instead whenever they would they instead gain an equal quantity of GP. Similarly when they would lose Experience points they instead loose GP. Functionally for all purposes the Chrimatia uses their total GP as their Experience points. Additionally a Chrimatia gains a natural amour bonus to AC equal to their Charisma modifier. Should the character gain a level of Chrimatia, their current total of experience points are immediately converted into GP.

At 1st level a Chrimatia may use gold to increase the BAB, AC, bonus on initiative rolls, and saving throw bonuses. For saving throws and BAB, it costs 500 GP per +1 until the bonus equals half your Chrimatia level, after which point it costs 1000GP per +1. Exceeding your Chrimatia level costs 2000GP per +1. Increasing the bonus on initiative rolls and raising AC costs 1000GP per +1 until the total raises equal your level, after which it costs 2500GP per +1.
At 3rd level a Chrimatia may invest their GP into providing a permanent untyped bonus to their Ability Scores. For an Ability Score that is lower than their Chrimatia level it costs 1000GP per point. To increase a score so that it is beyond double your Chrimatia level it costs 3000GP per point, until you have done so a number of times equal to your level, at which point the cost increases to 6000 per point. When increasing Ability Scores with this class feature do not take temporary changes such as ability damage/drain, or temporary spells, into account.

At 5th level a Chrimatia may turn any item they own into a masterwork version of itself for half that items cost. Additionally they may then enchant their equipment as if they had the Craft Magic Arms and Armour feat, and they may craft magic rings, staffs, and Wondrous items as if they met all the prerequisites to do so. Items enchanted/created this way do not have any magical properties when used by a non-Chrimatia, appear more ornate and embellished than normal, and may be completed with only a minute of work which must be preformed inside the Chrimatias vault. You are automaticly proficient with any weapon or amour that is given an enchantment bonus by you.

Gold expended any manner originating form this Class Feature does nor visibility disappear from the quantity that appears within your vault but is otherwise unavailable to you and is not treated as existing. In order to invest GP using this class feature, you must spend a minute of work which is preformed inside the Chrimatias vault.

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## Lanth Sor

So I've been looking over the Archikos and the Eoteras trying to work the two myths together in and I noticed one key thing while one seems to be about innocence destroyed the other is immortal embodiment of nature. So I'm trying to update the banner for the Archikos and running into a brick wall. I have Orb(Incarnations of Immortality), Iceman(X-Men), Thrall(Warcraft), Maleficent(really she fits both classes well)

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## Defiantnight

> So I've been looking over the Archikos and the Eoteras trying to work the two myths together in and I noticed one key thing while one seems to be about innocence destroyed the other is immortal embodiment of nature. So I'm trying to update the banner for the Archikos and running into a brick wall. I have Orb(Incarnations of Immortality), Iceman(X-Men), Thrall(Warcraft), Maleficent(really she fits both classes well)


Poison Ivy? Kinda? In some versions she fits that, she has a lot of retcons.

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## VoodooPaladin

> So I've been looking over the Archikos and the Eoteras trying to work the two myths together


They are actually pretty different Mythos. Best of luck. Also: Thrall is already in the Kathodos banner, so you're kind of cheating there.

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## Lanth Sor

I just re read the fluff for the Eoteras and realized it was basically natures son who was the patron titan. And Thrall is just the best example of communing with nature out there. Totally forgot but Poison Ivy is on the roster.

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## VoodooPaladin

> I just re read the fluff for the Eoteras and realized it was basically natures son who was the patron titan. And Thrall is just the best example of communing with nature out there. Totally forgot but Poison Ivy is on the roster.


Thrall isn't even the best example from Warcraft. Malfurion Stormrage is. Nor would either of those be my first choice. That title goes to DOTA 2's Rooftrellan, followed by my second choice, Disney's Tarzan.

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## khadgar567

> Thrall isn't even the best example from Warcraft. Malfurion Stormrage is. Nor would either of those be my first choice. That title goes to DOTA 2's Rooftrellan, followed by my second choice, Disney's Tarzan.


sorry mate but jerkfurion is really bad choice only think he did is act like lawful idiot while trall reforms all of horde from top to bottom

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## roko10

> Thrall isn't even the best example from Warcraft. Malfurion Stormrage is. Nor would either of those be my first choice. That title goes to DOTA 2's Rooftrellan, followed by my second choice, Disney's Tarzan.


Not Nature's Profit Prophet/Furion?

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## Lanth Sor

Thrall is basically the pinnacle of becoming being both one with nature and the legendary warrior. Malfurion seems like a natural choice but he just seems to fall short of what i intend. Previously i had Ysera and Malfurion i think Ysera will stay.

Tarzan is nothing but a feral child with no special abilities hes just the weird kid that grew up in the jungle. So if you were pitching barbian that became one with the land in the hunter sense or something of that nature hed be right up that ally but this is one with nature not though modern means but truely becoming nature itself.

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## VoodooPaladin

> sorry mate but jerkfurion is really bad choice only think he did is act like lawful idiot while trall reforms all of horde from top to bottom


I never said he was a good person, or a good leader. (or that anything post-Vanilla WoW is well-written) I only said that he is the greatest druid who ever lived, who trained at the foot of the Demigod of Nature, Cenarius, and whose guidance is implied to be the source of all Night Elven druidism. His 10'000-years of pilgrimage within the Emerald Dream can speak for itself.

But those are all excuses, I suppose. Lots of characters have a list of accolades that could be attributed to them. The real reason I picked him is because his _command_ of nature is clear and ever-present. This is a guy who tells the trees what to do, and they just get up and do it. If he stumbles across a ten-millenia-old magic bridge, he doesn't fumble around looking for a key. He just tells it 'Do you know who I am!?' and it activates itself. That kind of rule over natural forces is what I think of when I think 'Mythic Druid,' so I'll admit my position's subjectivity.

Tarzan was picked for much the same reason. 'King of the Jungle' and all that.

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## 7th son of sons

One with Nature AND a Legendary Warrior? Off the top of my head: Kraven the Hunter (Marvel), San (Princess Mononoke), Udyr (League of Legends), Toph (Legend of Korra), The Na'Vi (Avatar).

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## Lanth Sor

I guess I don't know how to say what I mean. I'm not looking for druids, as i see druids they are simultaneously discovering nature while they interact with it and protect it. This feels more in line with the proteans story. What I want are examples of nature, that are nature, they don't need to learn about nature because they are it inherently. This is why Yesra is a better choice over Cenarius, Thrall, or Malfurion. Looked up ROOFTRELLEN but he doesn't seem to quite fit the fantasy of the class to me. The Nav'hi are close but feels like they are missing a key element.

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## VoodooPaladin

> What I want are examples of nature, that are nature, they don't need to learn about nature because they are it inherently.


Well. You're going to need all of the luck, then, because that isn't exactly common. But I'll see what I can do.

Okay. The Scion of Mana is the final boss of Children of Mana. Anise might also fit, but I'd need to look more into it. It's possible the Mana Goddess at the end of Legend of Mana would fit better, but all I have to go on is this Youtube video.

Captain Planet and whichever Gaia-expy you prefer are just about the only others I could dig up. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

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## EdroGrimshell

DC's Swamp Thing

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## Durazno

How about Omnath?

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## Lanth Sor

> Well. You're going to need all of the luck, then, because that isn't exactly common. But I'll see what I can do.
> 
> Okay. The Scion of Mana is the final boss of Children of Mana. Anise might also fit, but I'd need to look more into it. It's possible the Mana Goddess at the end of Legend of Mana would fit better, but all I have to go on is this Youtube video.
> 
> Captain Planet and whichever Gaia-expy you prefer are just about the only others I could dig up. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.


Thanx for the mana suggestion it would filled my last slot, but i cant find a pic of the goddess..




> DC's Swamp Thing


If  I didn't have poison ivy he would be on there. 

I pulled my old roster back up and updated it. Currently I have Cernunnos(Celtic God), Marah(Dawngate), Maleficent, Ysera(Warcraft), Poison Ivy(DC),  Gaia(Marvel), Hanna(The Tithe: penny arcade), Orb(Incarnations of Immortality)

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## spwack

Xefas (or anyone), I'm very keen to paly with Mythos characters, but less keen to deal with all the baggage that is 3.5e. Would you recommend Exalted? Which edition? And how difficult would it be to port back the classes?

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## Slawth13

Back again with some progress report on the Setgetzen.

I ended up going along with the idea of branching Mythos paths, eventually settling on tagging Different Mythos with the [Growth] and [Burn] tags.  [Growth] tags tend to indicate a Mythos that aids the Setgetzen's entire Collective in some way, or that help expand the story of the Mind Flower's original tale.  Mythos with the [Burn] tag indicate more offensively-oriented, self-targeting abilities, or ones that branch off to explore the searing madness that has haunted the Celosia since it was assaulted.

I also finally settled on a solution to my Shintai problem, and there are now two of them for the Setgetzen, one for both [Burn] and [Growth].

*Spoiler: Roots Ingrained in Thought Shintai*
Show

Roots Ingrained in Thought Shintai	

Prerequisites: Telepathic Talent Transferal, Space-Transcending Cerebral Positioning, Boundary-Dissolving 

Collective Cognition, 2 other Mythos with the [Growth] descriptor.

[Growth]

The Celosia was a part of all things minds, and never needed to be separate from them, for it was them.  You too gain this ability.

Firstly, the number of creatures that you may have in your collective is doubled.  Secondly, you are aware of all information that the creatures in your collective are aware of; they cannot keep secrets from you, and you have access to all of their memories.  Thirdly, you share the senses of every member of your collective, and experience all emotions and sensations that they do simultaneously.
However, taking this Mythos renders your physical body immobile, and you become rooted the spot you are standing at when you acquire this Mythos.  You no longer require food, water, sleep, or any other such petty mortal needs.  Your body never ages, and is effectively immortal  you can be killed, but you will never contract illness or die of natural causes.  You may continue to utilize class features, spells, psionic powers, and any other ability that does not require you to physically move in any way other than speaking.



*Spoiler: Rise From Rosen Ashes Shintai*
Show

Rise From Rosen Ashes Shintai

Prerequisites: 4 other Mythos with the [Burn] descriptor, Psychometabolic Regeneration Hideaway

[Burn]

Found in the minds of all living things, the Celosia retreated deep into the collective unconscious when it was seared.  You have a similar ability, though you turn it to a different purpose.
Upon taking this Mythos, your body bursts into flame and evaporates.  Your consciousness then occupies the nearest target of your choice.  Your feats, mental ability scores, class features, skills, and all other powers overwrite those of your new host.  For all mechanical purposes, this character is you with a new body.  However, every week, your host makes a Will save with a DC equal to your Setgetzen level + your Intelligence modifier.  

Should they succeed on this save, your mind is immediately expelled from their body, and they become immune to possession in this fashion.  You are also expelled from their body should they die.  In order to possess a new host, you must choose a target to make the same Will save as a target who is attempting to expel you.  Should they fail, you gain control of their body.  You may only spend a number of days equal to your Intelligence modifier without a host, or your consciousness will dissipate and you will die.

In addition to all of the above, should you use Consciousness-Consuming Conflagration while possessing somebody, you may choose to take Con drain or burn instead of Int.



Also, in case I never included it with any of my earlier posts, the Celosia's story.

*Spoiler: The Mind Flower's Story*
Show

What is a story but an idea, a thought given room to run and leap and bound away from its own restraints?  Even as the earliest Titans came to be, their very essence, the very idea of thought made flesh, was the seed of yet another idea.  As the Titans multiplied and minds echoed raucously throughout existence, that seed grew, and eventually bloomed into the Celosia.  Rooted in the thoughts and minds of all of creation, the Celosia flourished, and spread its branches across the collective unconscious of the universe, drinking deep of the ideas and emotions of all living things.

Some, however, felt as though the Celosia was an invader, a parasite which infected the minds of others, instead of the offspring of flourishing minds through the cosmos.  And so they dared to cut at its tendrils, and in response the Celosia struck back, lighting their minds ablaze and tearing them asunder.  The Celosias roots were still ingrained in the minds of these maddened creatures, and the Titan trembled, for such brokenness was unknown to it, and was as poison to it.  The Celosia retreated then, hiding itself away, the bitter taste of scorching insanity still fresh on its tongue; a taste from which it would never escape, not truly.

The children of the Celosia partake of their mothers fruit, tapping into not just the minds of others but also themselves, honing their thoughts into roaring pyres of psionic power and amassing the might of the collective unconscious.  Master mentalists, tacticians, and psychic warriors, Setgetzens are a living testament to the strength of mind over matter.

----------


## Defiantnight

Quite interesting... a shintai in which you choose immobile immortality or possession-hopping with a chance of death if your host is in the middle of nowhere.

Edit: Is that literally rooted, or can people carry you around?

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## Slawth13

I was thinking literally rooted.  However, they're still able to influence events through their Collective.  One of the Setgetzen's Excellencies will allow it to learn a psionic power, and I intend to give the class the ability to manifest powers through members of their Collective, meaning they'll be able to use their Collective members as conduits for their psionic powers even though the Setgetzen itself will be locked into a single physical location.

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## Lanth Sor

All it makes me think of is the leader of namek

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## khadgar567

> I was thinking literally rooted.  However, they're still able to influence events through their Collective.  One of the Setgetzen's Excellencies will allow it to learn a psionic power, and I intend to give the class the ability to manifest powers through members of their Collective, meaning they'll be able to use their Collective members as conduits for their psionic powers even though the Setgetzen itself will be locked into a single physical location.





> All it makes me think of is the leader of namek


or from warhammer emperor of moronkind

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## spwack

That last line of the Burn Shintai really interested me. In a crowded room, I can see the Anthol jumping from host to host, draining Con left and right (for power points I'm assuming), before leaving in whichever host is last. Leaving the building full of skeletal husks, mind and body fried as one.

Could you make it so hosts killed due to Con drain burst into psychic flame? Because that would be sick.

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## Slawth13

> All it makes me think of is the leader of namek


It's vaguely similar.




> That last line of the Burn Shintai really interested me. In a crowded room, I can see the Anthol jumping from host to host, draining Con left and right (for power points I'm assuming), before leaving in whichever host is last. Leaving the building full of skeletal husks, mind and body fried as one.
> 
> Could you make it so hosts killed due to Con drain burst into psychic flame? Because that would be sick.


Well, CCC, the Mythos referenced by that line, causes a giant burst of psionic fire centered on the user.  So that's pretty much exactly how it works already.  Normally you take Int drain or burn (depending on whether or not you use the advanced manifestation), but if you have RFRAS, that'd be the end of you since you're just a free-floating consciousness.  So I gave the option to torch your host in exchange for big damage instead of self-inflicted braindeath.  It's still risky because there's a chance you'll burn up the nearest available replacement host, but what's life without a little danger?

EDIT
The thread is up.

----------


## ThreadNecro5

Just put together the soul-owning mythos, not entirely satisfied but it's a start. was also hoping for a similar mythos for owning land but I got delayed.

I'm thinking around Legendary tier?

*-Soul Collecting Mythos-*
*Spoiler*
Show

You may now acquire the souls of creatures, storing them in your Vault in the same way as other valuables. A soul is worth an amount of GP equal to the WBL of its original possessor (taking into account all HD) but the price can be up to 50% higher for notable individuals.
You may gain a soul either by having it given to you willingly (or through trade) or by purchasing it, which is accomplished through finding a creature which is willing to sell their soul and offering an amount of GP equal to the souls value and seeing if the creature accepts. Should the creature not accept this deal you may make a DC20 Diplomacy check to persuade them otherwise.

A souls owner who knows the nature of their property may sense its original bearers location at all times (getting an exact sense of direction and distance), may communicate with the bearer as if they had telepathy that operated over planar boundaries and with infinite range, and the owner(s) may one per week use an effect that functions as a CL 20 Geas spell which may not saved against at will. If the GP value of a soul is traded between several creatures they all may make an opposed Charisma check should they collectively disagree on using this geas.

A soul may only be traded willingly without magical compulsion (the creature does not however have to know they seriously did so, a soul given in jest is still a soul given.). Once in your possession the soul takes any form you wish, with examples including statues of the being they are form, coins stamped with the face of the souls originator, or even poker chips if the Chrimatia so wished. Should a creature die when their soul is not owned by them have their mind trapped within the form the soul takes, and may see and/or talk should their owner wish them to. If you convert a soul into its value in GP, you may return the value in coins back into a soul as a free action.

On gaining this mythos your own soul is deposited into your Vault, it is always worth 50% more than a creature of your HDs soul should be worth. Any class feature that you spend the value of your own soul on, and which physically does not result in the loss of gold from your Vault, may be refunded by spending an hour in your hoard.

_Advanced Manifestations:
Buyout_
You may forcefully buy a soul. This costs an amount equal to the souls value and its owner must make a will save with a +2 bonus (this is doubled should another being have a strong claim on the soul, such as on most divine spellcasters, or on those who have made some pacts with a fiend). On a failed save you gain full ownership of the soul.

_-name-_
You may geas someone whose soul you (and only you) own at will, and by concentrating you may see through the senses of any soul you own (you may only so this with one soul at a time). Additionally should you have the Gaze of Greed Mythos, you do not need to concentrate to use your senses and may do so with all souls you own at a time.

_Free Enterprise_
You gain 1% of all GP earned by should you own. Should this ownership be shared, this GP is shared by a fraction equal to the amount of the souls value in GP each party owns.


And a couple of Excellences:
*Honest Pay*
*Spoiler*
Show

Whenever you preform a task for a being whom you is not a ally of yours without expectation of a reward and the person you do the task for would not plan to give you one suitable for the task, they must pass a will save or provide you with a suitable reward that is within their means to give. You may take a DC20 diplomacy check to steer this rewards towards a form you wish, but its specific nature is chosen by the being giving the rewards. A being will always give you a reward comparable to the task, even if it would leave them to go hungry, homeless, or otherwise inconvenienced or impelled.


*Bribing Fate*
*Spoiler*
Show

Whenever you make a roll, you may pay to increase the result of the roll. Before rolling you choose hoe much GP you wish to spend for a bonus, with each 50GP granting a +1 bonus on the resulting roll. This cannot take the roll over the maximum it could natural roll (so for example if you put 400HP into a d20 roll, and get an 18, the roll will be treated as a twenty before other modifiers). This bonus on the roll is treated as the natural roll is all ways, so a d20 that is made to become a twenty is treated as a natural twenty in all regards.



Another thing I came of mind of, there is a couple of Kreikiri mythos for symbiont stuff that I never of officially added and were left in an incomplete state when by old laptop broke. So I've whipped the remnants I could find into a somewhat usable state from what I could remember, and would like an opinion, both mythos being fantastic tier.

*Symbiotic Creature
Perquisite*: Monster-Making Beast-Lord (Flesh-Altering Master)

This Mythos unlocks the new Symbiotic Creature Feature for Created Creatures.
_Symbiotic creature_
*Spoiler*
Show

This Feature is available to Created Creatures with the Symbiont subtype only (see Fiend Folio p.215). A Creature with this feature may select any of its Features, Augments and/or Evolutions; these selected traits become classified as Symbiotic Traits. These traits are still considered and treated as the type of trait they normally are for all purposes, including limitations on the total number of times it can be selected (for example, a Symbiont created by a 5th level Kreikiri with Stable Implement of Empowerment can select the Fast Healing mutation a maximum of twice, making one, none, or both into Symbiotic Traits, while any not Symbiotic would apply to the Symbiont itself), the classification only has an effect within the effects of this Feature. The graft point cost of any Symbiotic Traits when creating the creature is reduced by -1, to a minimum of one point. When attached to a host, by the Creature taking a full-round action, the Creature fills a single magic item slot (which one is chosen by the Kreikiri upon creation). Any magic items placed in that slot have no effect.

Attaching to a creature is a full round action performed by the Symbiont, unattaching is also a full round action performed by the Symbiont. The Host may try to forcibly remove the Symbiont as a full round action, in which the host and Symbiont make an opposed grapple check, with the Symbiont calculating its bonus as if it was one size category larger than its host (it should be noted that when the Symbiont notices what its host is doing a personality conflict will likely immediately occur, forcing the host to make the save before the grapple check). If the host wins the check then they successfully pull out the Symbiont, dealing 1d4 constitution damage to themselves, and depositing the Creature into an adjacent space.

A Symbiotic Creature is unable to make use of any of its Symbiotic Traits, only providing them to an attached host as if they were grafts (the Augments of Features selected as Symbiotic Traits are similarly affected). While bound to a host the Symbiont is only able to take purely mental actions unless it can gain control of the host through a personality conflict (see Fiend Folio p.215). 

A mindless Symbiont is incapable of taking mental actions (it is mindless), however, when it is in control it will generally go on the rampage, as per a mindless creature from Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry. The host is fully aware but cannot act in any way when the Symbiont is in control. On creation the Symbiont automatically gains a single Character Trait (see Unearthed Arcana) that both they and their host benefits from, and that helps determine when a personality conflict would occur, e.g. an Aggressive Symbiont might provoke a personality conflict if the host stopped attacking a still living foe, or a Cautious Symbiont might provoke a personality conflict if the host rushed ahead without taking care for to spot traps.

A Symbiotic creatures' Ego score is only modified by special qualities and special attacks granted through Symbiotic Traits (as above), as well as increasing by +1 per class level the Symbiont possesses. A Symbiont created through this Mythos has its Ego score halved against anyone with levels in Kreikiri as it instinctively submits to even a shard of the Kyniteros.

_Augments:
Universal Trait      Cost_ 2
Select a single Feature, Augment, or Mutation that is a Symbiotic Trait. The Symbiont may benefit from it as it was not a Symbiotic Trait when not attached to a host. The trait selected cannot be one that requires activation or uses an action (so a Breath Weapon Mutation cannot be selected but a Flesh Feature or a Fast Healing Mutation can).



*Singularity of Life
Perquisites*: Monster-Making Beast-Lord (Flesh-Altering Master), Symbiotic Creature

This Mythos unlocks additional Augments for the Symbiotic Creature Feature.

[]iMeat Suit[/i] 			_Cost_ 30% the creatures total cost before taking into account this augment.

*Spoiler*
Show

When a Symbiotic Creature attaches to a host of their size category or smaller, the Symbiont fills all magic item slots on the host (the host is seen as being somehow enveloped by the Symbiont, such as using it as a suit), taking a full-round action to attach or detach. While functioning as host, the host is more fully enhanced by the Symbiont, with the following effects: Symbiotic Traits are applied to the host as normal, movement capabilities are determined using the higher of the Hosts or the Symbionts, use the higher of the hosts or the Symbionts Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution ability scores and Natural Armor bonus, and use the higher of the hosts or the Creatures BAB. The host also gains the traits (other than HD size, BAB, skill ranks, and saving throw progression) of the Symbionts creature type if the Symbiont is at least one size larger than the host, and any feats the Symbiont possesses which the host qualifies for (after taking into account the modifiers from the Meat Suit, and ignoring must be taken at 1st level prerequisites). 

As long as the Symbiont has one or more hit points, the host is protected from harm. Damage in excess of that which would reduce the host to less than one hit point is instead transferred to the symbiont. This damage is transferred 1 point at a time, meaning that as soon as the symbiont is reduced to a number of hit points capable of killing it, all excess damage remains with the host. Effects that cause death but not damage are unaffected by this ability.

These additional shared qualities increase the Symbionts Ego score by 6 (in addition to Ego from Symbiotic Traits, ability bonuses, etc.). When in control the Symbiont may freely use the hosts class features, feats, etc., sharing uses per day. 

Should the host be Dominated, Charmed, Confused, or otherwise mentally incapacitated, the Symbiont can make a Will save versus the effect (even if such a thing would normally be denied) to allow itself to take over. The control duration is as per normal (24 hours).

_Parasite:_ _Cost_: 20
The Symbionts Ego score increases by +2. Additionally when attached to a host and in control after a personality conflict, it may restore up to a number of hit points to itself equal to its HD as a free action, but only once per round. Doing this deals an equal number of points of damage to the host. Ability damage may also be removed instead of healing, with each point of such damage dealing ten HP of damage to the host.

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## EdroGrimshell

> Just put together the soul-owning mythos, not entirely satisfied but it's a start. was also hoping for a similar mythos for owning land but I got delayed.
> 
> I'm thinking around Legendary tier?
> 
> *-Soul Collecting Mythos-*
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> You may now acquire the souls of creatures, storing them in your Vault in the same way as other valuables. A soul is worth an amount of GP equal to the WBL of its original possessor (taking into account all HD) but the price can be up to 50% higher for notable individuals.
> ...


What about being able to purchase skill points, ability scores, HP, saving throw bonuses, BAB, etc. or even purchasing abilities, which you can then use yourself.

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## ThreadNecro5

> What about being able to purchase skill points, ability scores, HP, saving throw bonuses, BAB, etc. or even purchasing abilities, which you can then use yourself.


kind of like how being can offer some of their own power in the Kathodos' Steam-and-Dust Showdown mythos, but as a more direct trade/sale? I am planning that as a alter mythos, and have been slacking in writing the class from designing stuff for a homebrew setting (I cannot stop thinking of new races).

Aside from that idea I also have a land-buying mythos planned that will give the ability to manipulate owned patches of land. I'm also stuck on thinking of smaller scale things for Exeptional Mythos.


finally as a general update I will add that the Kreikiri content in a few days assuming nobody as any complaints about it.

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## commander panda

ii just realized this thead was here i thought the mythos system had died so happy right now :Small Frown:

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## ThreadNecro5

I have a couple of new Chrimatia Exceptional Mythos written, as usual posting them here for checking that their are no glairing problems. the first one has a Manifestation I don't have a name for yet, and the second I am still thinking of Manifestations for.


*Auriferous Hoardmasters Corpulence
Prerequisites*:-
*Spoiler*
Show

You gain DR5/-. Additionally whenever you take damage you may prevent some portion of it by paying 5gp per point of damage you wish to prevent.

_Basic Manifestations
Company Health Plan_
You may pay to prevent the damage of any creature within 60ft as if they were yourself, taking any other manifestations into account.

_Purifying Metals_
You may pay 50GP to prevent points of ability damage and drain.

_-name-_
The cost to prevent a point of damage reduces by 1GP. You may take this Manifestation multiple times through the expenditure of Mythos points, you may not reduce the cost to below 1GP.


*Sign of success*
*Spoiler*
Show

Any creature who possesses less money than you (spread across all their and your possessions) is naturally as their attitude towards you begin one step closer to Helpful, and you gain an additional +2 bonus on Diplamocy and Bluff checks to convince them to preform a specific course of action. Most Chrimatia with this Mythos also have their feature subtly shift so that they look like a successful individual according to their home society and personal outlook, which can include appearing more physically fit from a rugged lifestyle, putting on weight as if from years of decadence, or gaining features that would be recognized as noble and such.
_Advanced Manifestations_


I also have added some Manifestations to Gaze of greed, posting them here:
*Gaze of Greed
Prerequisites: -*

*Spoiler*
Show

You may spend a minute polishing a gold piece in order to copy the effect of a Scrying spell (the gold piece is used as the focus for the effect). For every 50GP you spend when using the effect, the target takes a -1 penalty on the will save.

Additionally as a move action, you may place a coin within your eye, embedding it inside. While a coin is so embedded you gain low light vision. Should you already possess low light vision you instead gain 60ft of Darkvision, should you possess both your Darkvision is extended by an additional 60ft.

_Advanced Manifestations
See your Fortune_
When using the Scrying ability of this Mythos you may treat yourself as standing on the space of the Scrying sensor whenever it would benefit you. Additionally you may copy the following spells when Scrying on someone, and they have a 100% chance of functioning through the sensor: Detect Chaos, Detect Evil, Detect Good, Detect Law, Detect Magic, and Message.

_I Want to see the World_
When using Scrying with this Mythos the sensor gains the benefits of True Seeing with a 10ft range, the effects duration becomes infinite (lasting as long as you conscious), and the sensor is not confined to following the initial target, and instead it may move around as you will it, including through solid barriers apart from those made of force.


And finally some Excellences:
*Spoiler*
Show

[b]-name-[.b]
Whenever you deal damage to a being you may transport a sum of valuables whose GP cost equal to your level or the amount of damage dealt (whichever is higher) x10 from that beings possessions to your Vault.

*Eternal Profiteering*
You may safely consume money. One GP functions as enough food and water for 24 hours. Additionally whenever you consume GP you may choose to either add a day to your maximum lifespan (to an age category of your choice) or to reverse your aging by a day and thus appear younger with a sufficiency high consumption. One you have aged to a point when you would gain bonuses to an ability score you gain that bonus, and when not old enough to take penalties to your ability scores such such penalties you currently suffer/would otherwise suffer from are removed.

*Take the Glory*
Any bonus a creature would gain on a Sense Motive check against a lie to convince someone you preformed a specified action is not benefited from, and instead you gain that as a bonus to your Bluff Check. In addition, should the creature believe the lie, any creature they tell the lie to who lacks significant evidence against it being the truth naturally believes them, as does anyone who they tell, and so on.

*Bask in Magical Force*
Any spell that targets a space or individual creature within 60ft of you may , as an immediate action, be re-targeted to effect you or the space you stand (as appropriate). Should you fill more than one space choose which one is targeted. The spell otherwise functions as normal. After using this effect you may not use it again for 1d4 rounds.

*At Least One of Everything*
You may at all times purchase any item you have sufficient GP to buy. The item appears in any space within 30ft, and in whatever state you so chose so, for example, a bear trap could appear set up. The actual purchase of the item is a swift action. You may made a Slight of Hand check opposed by viewers Spot checks to place this item in secrecy.

*Look at the value!*
You pass appraise checks to determine an items value without need to roll. Additional you gain a +2 bonus to convince others that an items cost is different than what it truly is.

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## Defiantnight

For the unnamed one, perhaps Tax Cuts?

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## Kapskaen

The more I see of the Chrimatia Mythos, the more I'm reminded of The President of The Company, from the korean manga 'The Gamer'. If there isn't a Resurrection Mythos called Life Insurance, I think I'll be disappointed.

On the whole though, I like the idea of a character that is literally fueled by money.

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## gkathellar

On reflection, it seems like certain excellencies (notably Heroes' Misfortune, Primal [Skill] Perfection, and Unthinking [Skill] Comprehension from the Teramach) have little in particular to do with the class they're attached to, and should really have equivalents in the excellency lists of other classes. Is there any particular reason this isn't the case, or is it just an oversight?

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## VoodooPaladin

> On reflection, it seems like certain excellencies (notably Heroes' Misfortune, Primal [Skill] Perfection, and Unthinking [Skill] Comprehension from the Teramach) have little in particular to do with the class they're attached to, and should really have equivalents in the excellency lists of other classes. Is there any particular reason this isn't the case, or is it just an oversight?


I think it might be intentional. The Teramach's brutal simplicity is outlined in its description as a thematic underpinning. Brute force isn't complicated, so its abilities aren't complicated. I don't really think that's the same thing as being generic.

I say this mostly because there are similar things in other classes.
The Bellator's Singular [Skill]-Innovating Prodigy requires one skill point to have already been invested, which implies that despite the Iron Mythos a Bellator is still dependent on mundane training to improve themselves.The Jagannatha's Discarded Memories of [Skill] only applies to Knowledge skills and Spellcraft, preventing the Jagannatha from easily dominating both physical and social encounters.The Olethrofex's Timeless [Skill] Practice is very similar to Unthinking [Skill] Comprehension, but it seeks to reinforce the disconnect from lifelike behavior with its requirement of being sleepless.
I could see generic versions of those as feats, though. A free level-appropriate skill from your class list, with a higher-level one that lets you double-roll some of your trained skills. Can't be worse than whatever the divine casters are packing. Probably a good boost for the poor classes that actually use skills to accomplish things.

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## qazzquimby

If anyone wants something to do, there's a pile of probably abandoned WIPs in the compenium.

I'm also going to complain that I haven't seen any awkward mythos highschool comedy drama game yet.

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## spwack

> I'm also going to complain that I haven't seen any awkward mythos highschool comedy drama game yet.


Awkward...

Yes. Yes, I have decided that I want this.

EDIT: There is a slight correlation between the number of non-standard characters in a name and it's being abandoned/WIP. No idea what this means.

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## PeacefulOak

The Eoteras is still under development, real life has just been occupying a stunning amount of my time.  Hopefully I will find some writing time soon.

Also, I was quite excited to see my class mentioned in this thread. Very cool moment for me.

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## roko10

> I'm also going to complain that I haven't seen any awkward mythos highschool comedy drama game yet.


How would that even work?

Is everybody in the school a Mythos/other relevant tier 1-2 class characters, and the school being like Beacon from RWBY, or is it more that only the PC's are Mythos-classed, and it being something like "wake up, go to school, save the world?"

'Cause both sound _extremely awesome_

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## qazzquimby

> Is everybody in the school a Mythos/other relevant tier 1-2 class characters, and the school being like Beacon from RWBY, or is it more that only the PC's are Mythos-classed, and it being something like "wake up, go to school, save the world?"


 I vote the first.


How about if you have a wip you don't other people's grubby mits all over you say so here (or maybe I should PM everyone  :Small Frown: ) and otherwise the "-wip" tag will be appended with "UP FOR GRABS"

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## PeacefulOak

I am definitely still working on the Eoteras. I very much value opinion and inspiration from the community, though, so I welcome people to provide their input and suggestions.

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## VoodooPaladin

> I am definitely still working on the Eoteras. I very much value opinion and inspiration from the community, though, so I welcome people to provide their input and suggestions.


I'll see what I can bring to the table with a pair of fresh eyes.

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## Xefas

> "wake up, go to school, save the world?"


Chad had always known he was different from the other children. But that fact was only thrown into starker relief when he hit puberty, and what his parents had thought was simply an overactive pituitary gland turned out to be the blasphemous legacy of beings beyond space thundering through his veins.

"I'm sure to make it on to the football team _this_ year." said Chad, casually shouldering minivans out of the way of his gargantuan footsteps through the parking lot.

But little did Chad know that it took more than a big heart, a big dream, and the ability to deadlift small buildings to be accepted by his peers. After an hour of shattering tackling-dummies to splinters, first on accident, and then on purpose, and hurtling footballs into low orbit above the earth, he presented himself before the rest of the JV team, without a doubt in his mind that they could do nothing but accept him into their ranks and finally tell him what he'd always wanted to hear - that he had a place to belong, at last. But what they told him instead was, "You're ugly and your family is poor."

And then they left.

"Chad strongest there is!" mewled Chad desperately to the now-empty stadium, sobbing tears with enough impact to punch small craters into the artificial turf. "Chad want to be angry! Chad want to lay waste to pathetic universe!" But what Chad felt was not anger. It was sad, sad hormonal depression, and a growing teenage cynicism.

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## spwack

Miranda was the type of girl that everyone wanted to be around. With a single look, she could wipe away fear, doubt, and reveal inner beauty. Not a sissy "inner beauty is loving yourself", no, Miranda turned people around into stylised versions of themselves that adhered to modern fashion. Everyone loved Miranda. Those that did not love Miranda were violently dismembered through sheer willpower and plastered across the halls.

This changed when blonde-bombshell Milly, BFF of Miranda since, like, forever, used some of Chads blood in an arcane ritual to imbue her dad's (now sentient) shotgun with unnatural energies and blasted her way through half the school and Miranda's face.

Milly then dyed her hair black and is now a goth.

...My god. If you can render an Anthol of your Mythos as a hormone-fueled highschooler, you've succeeded.

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## commander panda

> I'm also going to complain that I haven't seen any awkward mythos highschool comedy drama game yet.


i absolutely want to play this.

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## qazzquimby

Look now and witness the horrors a simple comment may unleash upon the unsuspecting world.

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## Jakman217

I've continued working on my Mythos class for a while and want to get some help from you guys before I post ask for it to be posted to the Compendium.  

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...2#post20393742

I'm really just hitting the bottom of the barrel in terms of ideas at both the excellency and exalted levels. Any help would be appreciated. Also, I'll probably get back to copying stuff over to the wiki in due time. Life's just gotten in the way recently.

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## DracoDei

I am still working on the Phileotheysia... the biggest mechanical sticking point is that the basic class abilities still feel like they have to be "healing" so we can finally have something to slot into the "Walking band-aid dispenser" role (or another one if I missed something), but the rest of the abilities are mostly "protective" and/or "buffing".

Fluff-wise, I haven't heard hide nor hair of whoever said they would write up the titan...

Intentionally does NOT have a thread yet.

Draft can be found HERE. Some mythos and excellencies MUCH more polished than others.

Semi-obviously: Comments desired.

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## PeacefulOak

My favorite healer that I have ever read about, EVER, was in the book Shadows of Socrates. Instead of healing through divine intervention or magical prowess, he absorbed the injuries and then healed them within himself at a much accelerated rate. The image of someone standing over an injured ally and bandaging *themselves* before taking on their wounds seems pretty mythic to me. And the quote... "I hate broken bones."

In a more mechanical sense, give the anthol 2d6 or even 2d8 hit points per level, and their intrinsic class ability should grant fast healing equal to maybe 1/3 of their level. Also they can take on the wounds of anyone, but in an "all or nothing" manner.  The progression of this might give you some DR against your damage absorption, with the caveat that the damage can never be reduced to zero.  

I really like the heal check mechanic you have, too.

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## Zenna

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...yer&p=20337949

Hey guys, I made a ton of changes to my class, and I'd like some revised opinions

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## DracoDei

> My favorite healer that I have ever read about, EVER, was in the book Shadows of Socrates. Instead of healing through divine intervention or magical prowess, he absorbed the injuries and then healed them within himself at a much accelerated rate. The image of someone standing over an injured ally and bandaging *themselves* before taking on their wounds seems pretty mythic to me. And the quote... "I hate broken bones."
> 
> In a more mechanical sense, give the anthol 2d6 or even 2d8 hit points per level, and their intrinsic class ability should grant fast healing equal to maybe 1/3 of their level. Also they can take on the wounds of anyone, but in an "all or nothing" manner.  The progression of this might give you some DR against your damage absorption, with the caveat that the damage can never be reduced to zero.


Hmmm.... I guess I could turn those options from Mythos into basic features, but I'm sure if that is the route I want to go.

At the end of the day what you are telling me seems to be "don't worry about giving healing as basics, and then protection and buffing as things that you actually have to pick. Am I right?

Multiple dice for one HD is way too likely to be confusing I think. They already have a way of getting crazy-huge numbers of hitpoints, possibly even without spending mythos points for multi-buying manifestations. (It is under Gift of Aegis, which is their version of _Shield Other_). Naturally, if I made transferring pre-existing hitpoint damage a basic feature rather than a mythos, I'd probably make the hitpoint boosters its own mythos rather than manifestations of another.

EDIT: Fixed the sentence fragment in the last sentence of the above paragraph. Also: I originally WAS going to give them 2d8 or some such, but one of the earliest comments I got on the concept said not to. I THINK the idea was that it was too inflationary even for mythos? I don't quite recall.



> I really like the heal check mechanic you have, too.


You mean with the taking 10 scaling into being able to treat blindness, deafness, and ability and level drain and such? I just want to be sure we are on the same page here.

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## PeacefulOak

Yes, the advanced uses of healing skills, the default take-10 and take-20 options was what I appreciated.

To be honest, my initial review was based on a read through of only the base abilities of the class, not the Mythos.

The more I read (and I'm into the Fantastic level now), the more this feels like the Mythic Defender, or the Mythic Supporter.  Most of the abilities reflect a desire to support, uplift, or physically defend your allies.  Not really sure how to offer feedback, as I think that there might be two conflicting ideas behind this class.

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## ThreadNecro5

Before I begin working on the mythos that allows trading with aspects of a beings personal power (a bit like a Kathodos's Steam-and-Dust Showdown), does anyone have any advice on balancing it?

I'm thinking unless anyone puts forward a better idea of having the Chrimatia only able to use/benefit from the traded-for thing (e.g. BAB, Mythos, Feat, ect.) once and then it is 'spent', but if given/sold to another being they are permanent for them as normal.

The reason I'm asking this is that without some strict balancing of this idea I feel that a Chrimatia could basically wander around a town mugging people for BAB, Skills, Feats, Ability Score points, or Reach, until you pretty much have PunPun, who then of course will probably repeat the process with gods.

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## DracoDei

> Yes, the advanced uses of healing skills, the default take-10 and take-20 options was what I appreciated.
> 
> To be honest, my initial review was based on a read through of only the base abilities of the class, not the Mythos.
> 
> The more I read (and I'm into the Fantastic level now), the more this feels like the Mythic Defender, or the Mythic Supporter.  Most of the abilities reflect a desire to support, uplift, or physically defend your allies.  Not really sure how to offer feedback, as I think that there might be two conflicting ideas behind this class.


Hmmm... Three ideas in the original (non-mythos) class I'm basing this on, actually. 
1.) Buffs
2.) AoOs (to screen the rest of the party), note that this becomes entirely optional for the Phileotheysia, since I turned it into a mythos due to its semi-offensive nature.
3.) Healbot

*"Conflicting" might or might not apply.* This is the guy who lays himself down for the party. The Sacrifice. In extreme cases (especially when deaths revolving door is well greased) The Martyr. I've extended that to  "its a dirty job but someone has to do it" type of things such as healbotting. It has a Divine sort of feel to it I think by default, and that goes with healbot. I COULD drop that, but then I wouldn't know what to give them for basic features beyond Charisma to AC I don't think. And, again, Mythos needs a healbot, right? Nobody wants to play the healbot traditionally, and I think this is a good class to tag it onto where it DOESN'T end up being offensive necessarily, and thus mess up the flavor (as I see the healbot flavor).

What do you think? Still think it shouldn't be part of the basics of the class? The buffs can go in so many different directions, I felt like healbot would get left by the way-side, or cost the character too much if I made it a mythos or excellency chain. Again, nobody likes healbotting, but someone needs to do it (even if only an NPC). Although _Touch of the Phileotheysia_ (Excellency) is currently their best source of low-level HP healing.

*Spoiler: Other things I've done that go along with the general flavor I'm going for:*
Show



 The aforementioned AoOs (_Defensive Strike Mythos_ and its sequels), and a Disarm/Sunder option. IE the attacks that prostect your allies, rather than being directly offensive. A lot of the Excellencies are useful for not being the one to drag the party down. 
---In a stealth campaign alongside rogues, illusion-loaded wizards, and a cloistered cleric with the trickery domain? There is an excellency (_Quiet Mother Betrays Not Her Brood_) that adds Hide and Move Silently to your skill list, grants you Darkstalker (at class level 3), and gives you extra skill points as if your Int was 2 points higher for your Phileotheysia levels. The sequel E_Ever-Silent Unseen Guardian Spirit_), means you never need a separate hiding spot or _Invisibility_ spell when staying close to the party. 
---Need to physically keep up? Try _Omega-Wolf Keeps the Pace_ excellency (Dash, Endurance, and bonuses to forced marches... including letting you Sacrifice to help other people keep up. Not enough? How about _Wherever You Go, I Shall Not Fail To Follow_ (Exceptional Mythos) that lets you copy your allies movement modes at half their speed and, for flight, also reduced maneuverability. 
-Some miscellaneous "dirty job" type of excellencies.
---One that lets you "trap monkey". 
---The one that makes you excellent at standing your watch when resting in dangerous locations (Dutiful Watchman Alertness). And its sequel(s) just make you even better at that.
---Alignment checking.
---Social skills such as speak language, gather information, etc. To smooth the way and avoid trouble. The players having to "do their homework" rather than just hack and slash can be a good thing, but spending the skill points is a "dirty job" (although to a certain extent all the characters need to have investment depending on how the GM is ruling diplomacy and maybe bluff work).

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## PeacefulOak

> Hmmm... Three ideas in the original (non-mythos) class I'm basing this on, actually. 
> 1.) Buffs
> 2.) AoOs (to screen the rest of the party), note that this becomes entirely optional for the Phileotheysia, since I turned it into a mythos due to its semi-offensive nature.
> 3.) Healbot
> 
> *"Conflicting" might or might not apply.* This is the guy who lays himself down for the party. The Sacrifice. In extreme cases (especially when deaths revolving door is well greased) The Martyr. I've extended that to  "its a dirty job but someone has to do it" type of things such as healbotting. It has a Divine sort of feel to it I think by default, and that goes with healbot. I COULD drop that, but then I wouldn't know what to give them for basic features beyond Charisma to AC I don't think. And, again, Mythos needs a healbot, right? Nobody wants to play the healbot traditionally, and I think this is a good class to tag it onto where it DOESN'T end up being offensive necessarily, and thus mess up the flavor (as I see the healbot flavor).
> *Spoiler: Other things I've done that go along with the general flavor I'm going for:*
> Show
> 
> ...


I think I understand your intent with this class, as to fill in the various roles that other *players* don't necessarily want to play.  I appreciate that sentiment, as it is one I often find myself filling when I'm a player (which is also why I enjoy DMing).  I think making a defensive support character, whose purpose is to get into the thick of battle and shut down the opposition while inspiring and supporting their allies, is a great concept.

Were I to tackle that, using a lot of your existing framework, I would make the defensive strike into a core class feature, I think, and make the nature/benefit of that strike become something that is modified by your mythos and situations.  Maybe rename it to a defensive reaction?  Have the class feature be that you, a number of times per (day/encounter/other thing) equal to maybe your Charisma modifier x 1/4 class level, can declare yourself to have retroactively readied an action to respond to a situation that has just occurred.

The Mythos then would apply templates and situations/reactions to those that you can apply, such as your Defensive Strike.  You can add in things like your Bardic Music ability, but as a reaction instead of a pro-active thing.  This could turn into a really elegant class that could potentially have the answer to nearly everything, in the moment.  Diplomancer situations could be that you had a secret about the person you are talking to in the back of your mind, or a clutch piece of information that affects the outcome of the interaction be that through Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate.

Healing could be done the same way, or added in as a separate Mythos chain that adds some healing utility to the class.  Different, non-reaction Mythos could be used to add non-reaction utility.

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## vasharanpaladin

New Magic fiction got me thinking about my old Luminarch idea again.  I may actually end up using alignment somehow, if only because it might go well with this new stuff about Avacyn.

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## DracoDei

> I think I understand your intent with this class, as to fill in the various roles that other *players* don't necessarily want to play.


Well, among other things.

The original seed of the idea was to create a character whose primary challenge in combat was simply to survive, but who was also effective in combat just by being there. A character for whom Total Defense would be as common an action as the stereo-typical fighter's full-attack. I've moved away from that into focusing on "Sacrifice" (both IC and on the meta-level of "dirty jobs"), but there you go.



> I appreciate that sentiment, as it is one I often find myself filling when I'm a player (which is also why I enjoy DMing).  I think making a defensive support character, whose purpose is to get into the thick of battle and shut down the opposition while inspiring and supporting their allies, is a great concept.


Glad to find another person who would want to play it. This may be less niche than I was lead to believe, although your later comments make me wonder.



> Were I to tackle that, using a lot of your existing framework, I would make the defensive strike into a core class feature, I think, and make the nature/benefit of that strike become something that is modified by your mythos and situations.


Well, as I said, its semi-offensive nature means that it is something I want to keep strictly optional, although with what you say below this could cover the buffs as well.



> Maybe rename it to a defensive reaction?  Have the class feature be that you, a number of times per (day/encounter/other thing)


That doesn't jive with most mythos abilities, but I could perhaps be talked into it?



> equal to maybe your Charisma modifier x 1/4 class level, can declare yourself to have retroactively readied an action to respond to a situation that has just occurred.


Hmmm.... so instead of swift actions they use readied actions?

At first I was going to say that that cuts into the "Sacrifice" theme, but then again there is no particular reason why that would HAVE to be true., 

I see about three potential issues with this idea:

It does mean that you spend a shorter period of time vulnerable (from the attacker's turn until your next turn rather than starting from your turn), unless I make it go longer than that which would be even more of a game-slower than the class already is (it tends to end up with a lot of options you have to sort through every turn to find the relevant ones).

The other thing is if you decide what form of protection and to whom you are providing it when the attack actually occurs, then it takes a lot of the tactics out of the class in that your choices become basically no-brainers usually, rather than trying to anticipate the flow of battle. You still need to decide if you want to use your effect, or save it for a threat between now and the start of your next turn, but that isn't nearly on the same level.

Thirdly, there was a very good reason why I gave them swift-action abilities, rather than standard. The class needs to be vulnerable for a lot of the "sacrifice" mechanics to mean anything. If you could stand 100 feet back and give away things like AC and saves to your allies, that would be pretty silly. Thus most of the abilities have fairly short ranges (_Carry the Burden_ and the "for when the party gets split" type abilities being the major exceptions). This, in turn, requires a fairly mobile character who can move around the battlefield to get to where they anticipate being most needed. Light armor and Tumble help, but in order to keep up with a meleeist ally who is charging, you can't be using up standard or move actions to do thing.

This isn't to say that I'm rejecting the concept. You may have suggestions for how these things could be addressed, or I may have misunderstood what you are trying to describe.



> The Mythos then would apply templates and situations/reactions to those that you can apply, such as your Defensive Strike.  You can add in things like your Bardic Music ability, but as a reaction instead of a pro-active thing.  This could turn into a really elegant class that could potentially have the answer to nearly everything, in the moment.  Diplomancer situations could be that you had a secret about the person you are talking to in the back of your mind, or a clutch piece of information that affects the outcome of the interaction be that through Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate.


Sounds more like a chronomancer thing, and, as I said, either game-slowing or pretty mindless to play.



> Healing could be done the same way, or added in as a separate Mythos chain that adds some healing utility to the class.  Different, non-reaction Mythos could be used to add non-reaction utility.


My gut reaction is that the healing should remain out of combat, so as to keep the focus on prevention, rather than curative stuff, but you might have something there. The closest to effective in-combat healing they currently get is taking 10 to stabilize and _Gift of Aegis_ to split damage taken by a target. That second is probably more relevant.

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## PeacefulOak

Bear in mind that I am only one person offering only one point of view.

The concept of the "reaction ability" feature was to use swift actions, and to keep your rules around not committing directly offensive actions.

My concept would make it so you have the ability to react to situations affecting your allies on an ad-hoc basis.  To add to your planning/strategy preference, you could make it so that you have to declare the targets covered by your reactions before-hand, and that they would have to be within a certain range.

In any case, if my suggestions have offered nothing more than another perspective and a different angle from which to view your class, then my work has been a success.  :)



In a similar, if very different thought.... has anyone ever created/considered creating a rageless Teramach?

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## Xefas

> In a similar, if very different thought.... has anyone ever created/considered creating a rageless Teramach?


Red Fel started a thread to that effect about 8 months ago. But, sadly, Mythos classes aren't popular and wide spread enough that you can just make optimization threads about them in the d20 forum (well, you _can_, they just won't bear fruit).

Personally, I don't see the appeal.

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## Red Fel

> Red Fel started a thread to that effect about 8 months ago. But, sadly, Mythos classes aren't popular and wide spread enough that you can just make optimization threads about them in the d20 forum (well, you _can_, they just won't bear fruit).
> 
> Personally, I don't see the appeal.


Funny that you invoke *My Name*, given that I was thinking of positing a question here, myself.

I was wondering if anybody had laid claim to the idea of a Mythos Monk.  I had a few ideas on that point, but having no class-building experience to draw on, I was rather reluctant to start anything myself.  And while I've seen a few classes that could do something along that line with unarmed combat (e.g. Bellator, Teramach) or the mystical flow of energy (e.g. Kathodos), I saw nothing quite where I saw a Mythos Monk going.  I see something with various ways to train the body and spirit, with a distinctly _wuxia_ feel to it, and I'm not sure that it's been quite captured yet.

If somebody was interested in the idea, I'd be glad to offer my suggestions to someone more able to build a class.  Otherwise, I'm a bit reluctant to design something this big from scratch, but... I dunno.  Kinda depends on what goes into it, I suppose.

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## Sgt. Cookie

Be careful when using... "that" name.


I once said it three times in front of a mirror and "he" appeared. We ended up knocking back a few beers and having a discussion on the necessity of holding dominion over lesser men.

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## Red Fel

> I once said it three times in front of a mirror and "he" appeared. We ended up knocking back a few beers and having a discussion on the necessity of holding dominion over lesser men.


I won't turn down a good conversation on totalitarianism.

Or a good microbrew.

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## VoodooPaladin

> I was wondering if anybody had laid claim to the idea of a Mythos Monk.  I had a few ideas on that point, but having no class-building experience to draw on, I was rather reluctant to start anything myself.  And while I've seen a few classes that could do something along that line with unarmed combat (e.g. Bellator, Teramach) or the mystical flow of energy (e.g. Kathodos), I saw nothing quite where I saw a Mythos Monk going.  I see something with various ways to train the body and spirit, with a distinctly _wuxia_ feel to it, and I'm not sure that it's been quite captured yet.


I think the closest thing on the current roster would be a mid-level Epistemian, whose powers are derived from burgeoning, psyche-shattering enlightenment. They know kung fu, but Union's Mythos doesn't believe in Ex-only, if its banner is any indication.

But if you'd like to make a Wuxia Mythos, well I for one look forward to it! Sounds more like the kind of thing best handled with supplemental Mythos for pre-existing Mythos classes, but I'm not sure. .02$ and so on.

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## Red Fel

> I think the closest thing on the current roster would be a mid-level Epistemian, whose powers are derived from burgeoning, psyche-shattering enlightenment. They know kung fu, but Union's Mythos doesn't believe in Ex-only, if its banner is any indication.
> 
> But if you'd like to make a Wuxia Mythos, well I for one look forward to it! Sounds more like the kind of thing best handled with supplemental Mythos for pre-existing Mythos classes, but I'm not sure. .02$ and so on.


Well, it wasn't designed to be specifically _wuxia_ - although making _wuxia_ expansions for existing classes would probably be easier - so much as it was intended to invoke the same atmospheric style and concept.

The idea I had was basically personal refinement - refine the body, senses, spirit.  Much like the Kathodos, I would have different Mythos tags (Body, Mind, Spirit) that would give progressive bonuses to different areas of character development.  The guy who trains to have an indestructible gut, for example, versus the guy who can pick a fly out of the air with chopsticks, or the guy who can sense malice in the heart of his opponent.  I would also have weapon groups available based on how you specialized your Mythos, because while I love a capable unarmed combatant, I'm not going to pretend that classic-style Monks got by on their fists and good looks alone.

I just have to figure out what I'd have to rip off adapt to get started.

I should probably look at the Epistemian first, though, to make sure I'm not stepping on any toes.

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## VoodooPaladin

> I should probably look at the Epistemian first, though, to make sure I'm not stepping on any toes.


I suppose I should save you some trouble? The Epistemian is one of those ideas he threw on this Mythos Classes scrapbook. It's nothing but a banner and some descriptive text, seventh down from the top.*

With the official position towards Mythos material re: 'toe-squishin' being complete acceptability, you're fine. Hell, there's a chance you'll inspire others to make some more material, which we could all use. The Mythos system both runs on and is made of inspiration, after all.

*Well, I do remember some ideas being thrown about Union (the Mythos in question) being the origin of the Lady of Pain. That was kind of neat.

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## Red Fel

> I suppose I should save you some trouble? The Epistemian is one of those ideas he threw on this Mythos Classes scrapbook. It's nothing but a banner and some descriptive text, seventh down from the top.*
> 
> With the official position towards Mythos material re: 'toe-squishin' being complete acceptability, you're fine. Hell, there's a chance you'll inspire others to make some more material, which we could all use. The Mythos system both runs on and is made of inspiration, after all.
> 
> *Well, I do remember some ideas being thrown about Union (the Mythos in question) being the origin of the Lady of Pain. That was kind of neat.


Ahh, I remember seeing this.  It sounds like the Epistemian is basically the character who becomes aware of the rules (i.e. the narrative) and therefore how to exploit them.  Which actually sounds super awesome, but not quite what I was thinking of pursuing.

Well, then, I suppose I can pursue this idea...  I'll have to sleep on it...

Is there an official list of Titans, or is it just sort of evolving as things go?  It's all a bit daunting, still.

Also, I was thinking of "Autogen" as the class name (i.e. self-creating).  Is that a good name, do you think, or too plain?

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## Lanth Sor

@Draco sorry haven't got back about the fluff. Totally ADOSed(attention deficit ooh shiney) that I have several days off I'll get that done. Also do you have any issues with the guardian being the Titan the martyr was born from?

@red fel there is no list of all Titans just some of them the idea is make the Titan that fits you class idea.

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## DracoDei

> @Draco sorry haven't got back about the fluff. Totally ADOSed(attention deficit ooh shiney) that I have several days off I'll get that done. Also do you have any issues with the guardian being the Titan the martyr was born from?


I forget who The Guardian is? The Empyrean's (AKA Sol Invictus equivalent's) bodyguard?

I wasn't aware that Titans could be born from eachother, but it sounds right. I guess almost anything goes with Titans, right?

Just to be clear in light of my recent discussion with PeacefulOak: I still think a mergence with a Healing Titan (or lesser entity) is indicated, but I'll leave that up to you.

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## Lanth Sor

The agios's Titan was the guardian and the end of his story is that of sacrifice protecting the first sentient beings from the ravages of the chaos.

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## DracoDei

> The agios's Titan was the guardian and the end of his story is that of sacrifice protecting the first sentient beings from the ravages of the chaos.


Sounds good based on that.

Poke me if I forget to credit you for your work, okay?

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## Sgt. Cookie

Hey, Xefas, I'd post this in the Olethroflex thread but I don't want to get it locked, but I have a question:

Does Seal-Shattering End of Days Invocation provoke an Attack of Opportunity?



Not gonna lie, when I first thought about this, I was giggling like mad.

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## ThreadNecro5

I've got another few aditions to the Chrimatia, posting them here for the running PEACH, just figuring its peatter to get things smoothed out before the whole thing is posted.

First I now have Manifistations for Sign of Success:

*Sign of Success* 
*Spoiler*
Show

Any creature who possesses less money than you (spread across all their and your possessions) naturally has their attitude towards you begin one step closer to Helpful, and you gain an additional +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff checks to convince them to preform a specific course of action. Most Chrimatia with this Mythos also have their features subtly shift so that they look like a successful individual according to their home society and personal outlook, which can include appearing more physically fit from a rugged lifestyle, putting on weight as if from years of decadence, or gaining features that would be recognized as noble and such.

_Advanced Manifestations
Golden Ward_
Against the attacks of beings who possess less money than you (identified as per the method above) you increase your natural amour by +2.

_Gleaming Distraction_
At the cost of 1d6 GP per use, you may toss a handful of coins to distract creatures. To do this you target a 5ft space within 30ft you can see and that is not in mid air. All creatures within 30ft who could see that space or who pass a DC10 Listen check must take a will save. On a failed save they are Blinded for 1d4 rounds and must move by whatever means possible towards the space you targeted as they are distracted by the tossed coins and try to take them. Should more than once creature reach the targeted space there is a 50% chance they will attack and be aggressive towards any other creature who attempts to take the tossed coins.

_Ignorance of the Impoverished_
Against beings who possess less money than you (identified as per the method above) you gain a +4 bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. Additionally against such being you do not take a penalty of Hide checks for moving over half speed and no not require cover or concealment to use the Hide skill.


And the Land-owning Mythos (Advanced Manifestationss not yet written), and the power trading Mythos which I feel could use some better wording if anyone has any recommendations under the 'power' heading. I based it on the Kathodos's Steam-and-Dust Showdown for internal consistency, pre-existing balancing and mechanics (even if shifted around somewhat), and being lazy.

*Lord of the Land*
*Spoiler*
Show

You may pay 2000GP in order to gain a connection to an area of land measuring a complete circle with a one mile diameter as a Full Round action. Should this land be owned by an individual, organization, or government, the being with the greatest overall authority of this location may make a will save to prevent this. Should the being making the will save personally live within that location they gain a +4 bonus to the save. Should they have never been tot hat location they take a -2 penalty to the save. All land you personalty own is effected by this Mythoss effects for free. Land you are connected to via this Mythos is known as claimed land. 

When you are on claimed land you gain a +2 bonus on spot, Search, Spot, and, Listen checks. Additionally you can call to mind a list of all creatures and items worth over 1000GP within a specific 1-mile claimed area, and the direction to all listed things, and have an intuitive understanding of the area, meaning that you always know your relative position to the center of a patch of claimed land and are unable to become lost. You do not however know the distance to listed things, or any other details. Finally you are treated as the complete controller of all of your claimed land, and may change laws and act as you see fit (this does not however prevent people from disobeying laws and reacting oddly to your behavior).
_Basic Manifestations:
Gap in the Market_
When you have two or more regions of claimed land that are less than half a mile apart, determine the center of where these regions lie. The limit of the area of claimed land extend by 5ft per day towards this region, this is measured from the widest point of one patch of claimed land to the widest point of the nearest other, and continues inward so the whole area extends. For example three patches of land placed into the corners of a triangle would grow into a complete straight edged triangular shape.

_Step 3: Profit_
Once per week the creature with the greatest total ranks of Profession per mile of claimed land, who has inhabited a part of claimed land for at least 48 hours makes a special Proffesion roll as a free action in which no actual work is done or time taken. You gain the gold the creature would have earned. One such roll is made per each individual mile of claimed land.


*Universal Omnibroker*
*Spoiler*
Show

You gain the ability to trade in anything. You or and the the other creature (referred to as either the buyer or the seller as appropriate) may offer anything that they own (as defined by the GM, but generally determined by anything in whose existence that they are the ruling entity) in the exchange, mechanics that should cover most circumstances are below. The seller/buyer must make this trade willingly without magical compulsion (the creature does not however have to know they seriously did so, a trade made in jest is still a trade made). Once agreed upon the agreed trade immediately follows through. Selling something you gain via this Mythos is treated as trading it away. You may not trade this Mythos to others.

*Spoiler*
Show


-Magical Items. When a magic item is traded all its magical properties cease to function for its prior owner (unless possession is given back to them), and merely carrying it voluntarily imposes a -1 penalty on all d20 rolls, and if it is a weapon or a suit of armor, they treat the item as if they were not proficient with it.

-Services Rendered. During the trade specify a particular course of action that the seller to take, they are bound to perform that course of action. This Mythos enforces the spirit of the agreement, not the letter, so it is largely impossible to trick someone into agreeing to something they didn't intend to with clever wordplay. Once someone is bound to perform the specified duty, they will do so, to the best of their ability, without attempting to directly subvert their agreement, although they need not enjoy doing so.

-Power. The participants of the trade may stake some amount of their own power, to be given to the other. Examples of Power that may be traded include Mythos Points, Mythos, Invocations, Soulmelds, Vestiges, Spells Known, Spells per day, Class Features, Ability Score points, individual +1s of saving throw bonuses, BAB, Feats, Ect. The being trading their power looses what they traded, while it is gain by the other individual who is treated as having whatever class features and knowledge needed to make those abilities function. For example were a Sorcerer to trade a 1st level spell per day, the new owner of that spell per day may use that spell per day as if they were a sorcerer (they may not however know any Sorcerer spells). Any power the Chrimatia gains via this Mythos and sues personally instead of trading it onward to another being may only be used once and after which it is lost, unless they pay an amount of GP or Mythos Points (in any combination) equal to the number of HD of the source of the Power at the time it was gained x10.


For non-physical item traded via this Mythos a token is created that represents the trade for as long as that item is retained, and is given to the new owner of the traded thing in question.


And a quick little excellency:
The Finest Things in Life
*Spoiler*
Show

The benefits offered by any masterwork item you use are improved by +1. Should the item have an effect applied that would replace the bonuses of a masterwork item while having the item itself continue being masterwork, +1 of the masterwork bonus it retained. Additionally any positive effects granted by any anything you eat or drink are improved by +1, and the effectiveness of any mundane services (e,g, servants, tailors, ) you hire/purchase are improved. Such improvements are represented by any skill checks that are required in the process gaining a +2 bonus and the time it would take is reduced by 25%.


Also, a brainwave I had for another mythos class whose idea I am just tossing out their for opinions sake (I will probably pick it up at some point is nobody uses it). The idea is a 'Mythic institution/Fortress/Genius Loci' sort of thing, possibly coming from the titan of duty or something? those of the class will start as paragons of their institution, who slowly merge with it and become a Genius Loci/embodiment of it. example characters wise, I'm thinking of Davy Jones from Pirates of the Caribbean, the playable character from Dungeon Keeper, Rook from Demigod, and the like.

----------


## DracoDei

Gleaming distraction should still allow them to see the coins, the terrain between them and the coins, and others trying to grab the coins IMHO.

----------


## ThreadNecro5

> Gleaming distraction should still allow them to see the coins, the terrain between them and the coins, and others trying to grab the coins IMHO.


Good point, I meant to word it so that they were treated as blinded, which was representing their single-minded seeking of the coins.

*Later Edit:*
I just finished the Background on the 'Mythic Mothing' idea of mine. Dubbed the Tipoparchi, named from a combination of the Greek works for nothing and exists, creating a double meaning that will foreshadow a pair of Shintais
*Spoiler*
Show


The Titans were living stories, each defined itself by a legend of their own writing before being stuck into the cosmic foundation of existence. The Young One was not like this. It didnt -couldnt- define itself. In a fit of desperation one day, desperate to be something, tore itself open to pull something out. It failed. It kept going, tearing deeper and deeper inside until it ran out of more to tear free and so continued to wrench apart its hollowness thirsting for something to live by. One time when it again failed to pull something out, it did not fail. It _found_ nothing. It _was_ Nothing. The Nothing would have been born this instant if it existed.

In the primordial storm of chaos before law their was a space, more a precipice, where nothing happened. This void was the full stop at the end of the legend, the all consuming singularity that was The end. that spread into one tale after another as more began and grew. In the end the final fate of the Young One who became Nothing was ever in question, was it consumed by the nothing within and undone?, or did it truly achene its one dream of becoming and mark its legend on the universe?



In mechanical terms the class will be on the passive side in the effects of its Mythos, and each will have an additional manifestation that may be taken at any point at the cost of taking on a limiting 'curse' of sorts, like a mini-Shintai (the idea behind these ideas is that nothing should be a passive thing generally, and each mythos represents giving something up).

Also I've wound up with yet another Mythos class idea, the 'Mythic Godslayer' of the titan of vengeance. In terms of example characters I'm thinking the Hunter from Bloodborne, Kratos form God of War, and Ghost Rider. Opinions?

----------


## Xefas

I got the heads up for this a little while ago, and for some reason never posted it here. 

Godbound (kickstarter here) is a d20 game with a similar kind of mythical Exaltedesque-inspired 'Reach Heaven Through Violence And Punch God In The Face' kinda theme as my Mythos stuff. Not quite the same, but similar.

The creator has made a 'beta' pdf of the rules freely available (link), without any images and missing some layout stuff, but with pretty much the entire ruleset if you want to check it out. 

At first glance, it looks to me like it still doesn't have everything I would want in a "Mythos RPG" of its very own, but I feel like simply lacking all of (3.x) D&D's baggage would make it a lot easier to realize some of the classes I've been having trouble creating. 

So, check it out. I'm interested to know what y'all think. I'm going to take a second, more in depth look over it soon, and see if my initial impressions of things I liked/disliked hold up.

----------


## khadgar567

Looks like xefas's baby become a compleate setting of its own as for reviev looks good

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## Amechra

> I got the heads up for this a little while ago, and for some reason never posted it here. 
> 
> Godbound (kickstarter here) is a d20 game with a similar kind of mythical Exaltedesque-inspired 'Reach Heaven Through Violence And Punch God In The Face' kinda theme as my Mythos stuff. Not quite the same, but similar.
> 
> The creator has made a 'beta' pdf of the rules freely available (link), without any images and missing some layout stuff, but with pretty much the entire ruleset if you want to check it out. 
> 
> At first glance, it looks to me like it still doesn't have everything I would want in a "Mythos RPG" of its very own, but I feel like simply lacking all of (3.x) D&D's baggage would make it a lot easier to realize some of the classes I've been having trouble creating. 
> 
> So, check it out. I'm interested to know what y'all think. I'm going to take a second, more in depth look over it soon, and see if my initial impressions of things I liked/disliked hold up.


It's a lot more focused on playing God of a Thing than Resonant with a Mythic Structure.

*Spoiler: I got my fangasm all over the place. Oh dear.*
Show

For the latter, you want Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine, where I'm _reasonably_ sure I could assign each Mythos class to the existing Miraculous Arcs without any real effort.

*Any of Them:* _Generically_, a rank or two of Knave of Hearts or Become Somebody might feel appropriate. Go for it.
*Anakitos:* Ooh, funky. But they are pretty much just The Ace plus Creature of the Light.
*Bellator:* The Ace, pretty much. Dash some Self-Made on there to taste.
*Jagannatha:* Wounded Angel and either Called Away or A Keeper of Gardens, depending on whether you're focusing on "Prince of Hell" or "General of Demons".
*Kathodos:* Spiritual (The Four Elements) at low levels, Primordial (The Four Elements) at high levels.
*Olethrofex:* You're drawn a few directions with this one. I'd go with the safe bet and get Reality Syndrome, with your "cheat code" being killing. Add a sprinkle of Magical Hero based around some sort of necromancy skill and you're cooking with gas.
*Syntrofos:* Accursed and Sentimental look _really_ appropriate here. The whole "I are a weapon" is an Affliction.
*Teramach:* Straight-up Indomitable based around Superior Rage-Filled Murder, Specialist based around Superior Rage-Filled Murder.

If I could remember where you have the banners for the other ones, I'd do those too.

I want to actually write up the Arc Abilities for the Teramach now. _Especially_ the Specialist ones.

----------


## spwack

Since we are discussing alternative methods for playing Mythos, thoughts on learning Exalted 2e?

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## khadgar567

> Since we are discussing alternative methods for playing Mythos, thoughts on learning Exalted 2e?


No need to learn xefas basicly made much better system than exalted

----------


## spwack

Ok, a few things immediately stick out to me as excellent on a first skim. "When the Rules Don't Matter", "When Not to use Attribute Checks" (as well as Failed Checks), Fray Dice and Morale, to name a few. The first two and a bit are really important parts of every game, and I think these sections portray it quite well. I find games like Apocalypse World treat "failure", as more of "time for the DM to do something really cool", rather than "time for the players to do absolutely nothing" as DnD is wont to do.

Fray dice are just really clean and neat. Mythic characters, sorry, _Godbound_, are really dangerous to be around. I know that if my Teramach were to kill someone with Fray dice, they would just stare at the offending mortal until it had a heart attack. Speaking of Fray damage, a new Gift for the Alacrity/Sword Words:

QUANTUM EXECUTION CHARGE
On your turn, you can choose to forgo your Fray dice and instead place a Charge on a target you can see. 5 turns after this, each Charge detonates dealing your normal Fray damage, even if you couldn't normally apply this damage. If you invest Effort [daily? not sure], the first Charge on each target adds your STR in damage. Any enemy with fewer or equal hit dice to your level also takes this damage straight.

Morale is just something that works. I'll be using it. For bonus points, a player can make an appropriate check to add whichever ability they would like to the Morale roll, so long as they have the means necessary and take an action or two. Mythic characters are _scary_.

The Words of Power translate nicely (ha, get it?) into Mythic powers. Any Mythos that says "You can now do _this_" will convert really smoothly. Mythos says "You can now do _this_, but only by spending _this_ resource, or doing it once per day", will be smooth likewise. Mythos that give a straight bonus to something that is solely a 3.5e thingy? Not so much. Either ignore it, or work it out with the DM.

Finally, the inside-out AC is interesting (literally just add everything, less than 20 is a miss), and having every saving throw and ability check written directly in front of each player all the time would speed up play nicely. The different damage types... eh... my first thought would be printing out dice that have the conversions pre-done, but because you add your relevant modifier... hurrumph. My one real nitpick. It works. It's just messy.

*Spoiler: Really actually finally:*
Show

XEFAS CAN YOU DO A PLAYTEST OF THIS AND LET ME PLAY PLZ

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## nikkoli

Where do you find the cross class mythos feats? I've seen people talk about them but cannot find them for the life of me.

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## Xefas

> It's a lot more focused on playing God of a Thing than Resonant with a Mythic Structure.
> 
> *Spoiler: I got my fangasm all over the place. Oh dear.*
> Show
> 
> For the latter, you want Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine, where I'm _reasonably_ sure I could assign each Mythos class to the existing Miraculous Arcs without any real effort.
> 
> *Any of Them:* _Generically_, a rank or two of Knave of Hearts or Become Somebody might feel appropriate. Go for it.
> *Anakitos:* Ooh, funky. But they are pretty much just The Ace plus Creature of the Light.
> ...


Banners.

That's cool. I've had Chuubo's on my radar since the kickstarter but haven't really gotten into it. Maybe I shall.




> *Spoiler: Really actually finally:*
> Show
> 
> XEFAS CAN YOU DO A PLAYTEST OF THIS AND LET ME PLAY PLZ


Maybe?




> Where do you find the cross class mythos feats? I've seen people talk about them but cannot find them for the life of me.


Legends say that they were so powerful that their creator sealed them behind a wall of text beyond which none dared venture.

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## ThreadNecro5

> Where do you find the cross class mythos feats? I've seen people talk about them but cannot find them for the life of me.


Go to the compendium, look at the bottom of the first post, and you should see a link marked 'Fluff on Titans'. Go to that page and the feats are in a spoiler box at the bottom of the first post.

*Edit*:
Ha! Ninjaed by the brains of the operation themself.

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## Amechra

So I decided to do the Teramach thing:

*(Superior) Rage-Filled Murder*
0 - You get mad sometimes. Sometimes you lash out in anger. This is a thing you do.
1 - You have a mean streak the size of Kentucky. Sometimes, you stare at people so hard they have heart attacks.
2 - You don't have an anger management problem, your anger management problem has _you_. You can beat veteran warriors into the ground with your bare fists once you get going.
3 - You have literally surpassed the Rage Limit - anyone else that tries to get angrier than you is going to blow a vein. You could probably handle a small brigade by yourself if you got going.
4 - People tend to explode when you get your hands on them - the "danger zone" (as the radius of death around you is called) is approximately a mile or two.
5 - Angry. Angry enough to reach down the throat of someone's corpse, strangle the fact that they're dead, and then strangle _them_. Angry.

OK, that's a good starting point. What does Indomitable look like for the Teramach?

*Indomitable*
*Your "Curse"* is your boiling, never-ending anger. It seems to be working out _pretty well_ for you.

*Arc 0*
You have the inherent ability to strike _Paralyzing Fear_ into the hearts of people.

*Arc 1*
_Keen (Sense)_ - That's right, any one sense gets the "make Superman look like he needs glasses" treatment.
_Rage-Filled Murder Bonus_ - You get (Superior) Rage-Filled Murder as a free Skill at your Arc rating.

*Arc 2*
_Inhuman Rage-Filled Murder_ - Mundane actions _cannot oppose your ragemurder_. You need a pretty serious Miracle to knock you out of the murderin' mood.
_Tribulation_ - You get to spread the boiling, never-ending anger around! Sharing is caring!
_Inconspicuous Form_ - You have some way of getting around in a form that isn't just a murder-blender. Like _hell_ if you ever use it.

*Arc 3*
_Purification_ - You can be so angry that it unbreaks people. You can murder their death.

*Arc 4*
_Garden Perk_ - A world inside your soul is now yours for free!
Oh, and _Paralyzing Fear_ and _Tribulation_ can now be used on a city-wide scale.

*Arc 5*
_Forge_ - You can take an object and give it a new destiny. Knowing you, it's probably going to be "killing that doofus over there", but this lets you to take a folding chair and use it to beat up God.



Now for a less straight-forward (but more hilarious) one:

*Specialist*

*Arc 0*
_Initiate of a Hidden World_ - Your "world" is the truth that people are meat, buildings are splinters, and that the world exists to be destroyed. At Arc 1, you can open the minds of others to this truth.
_Speciality_ - Shift one or two points into (Superior) Rage-Filled Murder, as well as another at Arc 2 and Arc 4, to a maximum of 5.

*Arc 1*
_Understanding_ - Use this to automatically know all the relevant stuff for _how do I anger-kill_. Weapon locations, fragile parts of the body, that kind of thing.
_Mind over Body_ - You are really, really tough, and have a nasty habit of growing more arms to murder more people with.
_Basic Moves_ - Define the kind of stuff that _anyone_ that buys into your Hidden World can do, like smell fear or gib people like they were made of plasticine. You can teach this stuff to people - probably through face-punching.

*Arc 2*
_Plot Devices_ - You have _secret murder moves_; this makes _damn_ well sure that you can kill stuff. As your Arc goes up, the number and variety of murder tricks you can pull off escalates.
_Activate_ - Use your _secret murder moves_. Use them _hard._
_Implausible Skill_ - Let's you use (Superior) Rage-Filled Murder in ways orthogonal to actual, you know, murder. Like explaining to a small child that the reason why Santa didn't bring her presents is because Santa is made of meat. We're all made of meat.
_Counter_ - Oh, someone thinks they're clever? Use your _secret murder moves_ to counter their silly trick, and then kill them.

*Arc 3*
_Epic Move_ - You can get a bonus on your rage-murder actions by describing how the thing you are trying to kill is hard to kill, so you have to kill it harder.
_Wondrous_ - Make someone or something important. Like the corpse of the person you just tore apart with your bare hands.

*Arc 4*
_Barrier Break_ - You make it so that working out an idea or emotion as guaranteed physical effects. So rage lets you solve _all problems_.
_Conceptual Skills_ - Your murder is now a Miracle.

*Arc 5*
You get a stronger version of _Activate_ that lets your _Plot Devices_ do even more.

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## Xefas

> Since we are discussing alternative methods for playing Mythos, thoughts on learning Exalted 2e?


I suggest looking at Mythender if you like the really high end stuff. It's free. Just make sure you have a lot of dice. It seemed kinda silly to me at first, but there definitely _is_ this satisfying weight to, first, describing your dude leaping a few thousand miles into the sky, ripping a star off the firmament of heaven, and then suplexing it down through the atmosphere as a burning comet of death and wiping out the small nation surrounding your target, and _then_ upending a Crown Royal bag with forty+ dice in it onto the table while shouting "EAT MY THUNDER, *****" - that you just don't get with a single d20 or four Fate dice. 

I've considered writing a little supplement for playing the Lawgivers during their war with the Titans.




> So I decided to do the Teramach thing:


Neat.

edit: Hopefully I'll have more to say once I get to reading this behemoth (almost 600 pages?) of a book.

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## spwack

Reading the review of Chuubo's... Hm, yep, yep, uh huh. Pastoral slice-of-life, you say?

This synergises horribly well with that 'teenage-inheritors-of-mythic-corpse-juice' that came up a whole ago. Was this what you were thinking of? Or was it using the system to play Mythos straight? I have no idea how the latter would turn out, but I'd love to watch!

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## Amechra

> Reading the review of Chuubo's... Hm, yep, yep, uh huh. Pastoral slice-of-life, you say?
> 
> This synergises horribly well with that 'teenage-inheritors-of-mythic-corpse-juice' that came up a whole ago. Was this what you were thinking of? Or was it using the system to play Mythos straight? I have no idea how the latter would turn out, but I'd love to watch!


You can do both.

The game does this series just as well as this.

The best summation of the latter that I can think of is:

"Who's there?"
"It's the alien and I merged into the perfect being! Don't you feel comforted?"

"I'm software! And I'm corporeal. And I'm God."
"No, _I'm_ God."
"Actually, God's God, dumbass."

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## spwack

Serial Experiment Lain... now that's a name I haven't heard in a long, long time.

But seriously though, I'm broke and I haven't uh, "found" any rule sets of Chuubo. Any quick summaries of the core mechanics that might make this seem like a better fit for Mythos? I must say though, if one game can run Utena, Lain, Mythos and slice-of-life, that's got some serious clout behind it.

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## spwack

Double post but whatever. New Word for Godbound, useful for Teramach and Jagannatha mostly. The names of the gifts are Teramach Mythos, but who really cares. Hit things. Hit them hard. I won't be overlapping with Might and Endurance, because what Teramach isn't going to be taking both of those?

RAGE

[insert fluff about being really angry here]

Passive: A Godbound of the Word of Rage does not block or dodge the attacks of those that would see them dead. Rather, they merely endure the wounds inflicted upon them, inhumanly continuing their rampage even as they are slashed to ribbons or, especially at higher levels, perhaps their skin, hardened by the countless scars of past battles, merely shrugs aside the blades and arrows of those that come to slay them. They can modify their AC by their Strength, rather than their Dexterity if they so choose.

Lesser Gifts

Retribution Will Follow - Constant (Whenever a lesser enemy strikes the Godbound, they take Fray damage. Whenever a worthy foe strikes the Godbound, the Godbound may immediately make an attack, but only once per round)

Post Traumatic Brutality Roar - Constant (Whenever the Godbound specifically causes an enemy to make a Morale roll and fails, the enemy must make a Spirit save. On a failed save, worthy foes have their morale permanently reduced by 1d4, and lesser enemies by 3d4. If this would cause the to Morale score to fall below 2, the enemy is permanently reduced to a gibbering wreck.)

World-Breaker Grip - Action (Commit Effort when the Godbound is grappling an enemy. You may now use the enemy as a weapon dealing damage appropriate for their size. The enemy you are holding also takes half the damage you are dealing. If you would kill a "weapon" you are holding, each successive attack reduces the damage die size by 1)

[WIP, 3 remaining]

Greater Gifts

Humanity-Reaving Psychosis Echo - Constant (As Post Traumatic Brutality Roar. If you reduce a Morale score to below 2, the enemy may choose instead to increase their Morale score to 12 and become a Reaver under your... Command? Maybe. If you Commit Effort for the day, you may increase a single Morale check to 3d6, rather than 2d6)

Body of Samsara's Supernal Monster - Action (Commit Effort when you cannot see any allies. You increase in size by ten times, gain a +1 to your STR modifier and treat straight damage as normal damage. If you see an ally, you must make a Spirit save or lose the use of this Gift for 5 turns)

Untamed Apocalypse Shintai - Constant (You must always be moving towards the nearest living blah blah blah. You know how this goes. Whenever you kill an enemy, gain 1HP. This is capped at your level+STR modifier per round against lesser foes.)

That'll do for now I guess.

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## Zale

> Serial Experiment Lain... now that's a name I haven't heard in a long, long time.
> 
> But seriously though, I'm broke and I haven't uh, "found" any rule sets of Chuubo. Any quick summaries of the core mechanics that might make this seem like a better fit for Mythos? I must say though, if one game can run Utena, Lain, Mythos and slice-of-life, that's got some serious clout behind it.



Basically, Chuubo is a diceless system that uses a lot of heavily player defined skills and abilities. It's in many ways an outgrowth of Jenna Moran's Nobilis; has several nods to it. (Incidentally, those interested in that might glance at Jenna's Tumblr, where she's putting the Paetron funded arcs.) 

Instead of having attributes or carefully defined skills like in D&D, the player defines a number of skills (Which can function anywhere between attributes to skill-sets to philosophies). 

I like it because it's totally possible to make a character with _Crushing My Enemies Beneath My Heels_ as a major character skill. Or someone with _Love_ or _Not Being There When Trouble Starts_.

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## Xefas

Chuubo's does look pretty interesting, although having never played a diceless game before (that is to say, a randomized conflict resolution mechanicless game - I've had fun with cards and, in the case of Pilgrims of the Flying Temple, drawing tokens out of a bag), I do have some degree of apprehension. I like the XP systems, which remind me of The Shadow of Yesterday (/Marvel Heroic) style Keys. And while I've had trouble with character-specific open-ended skill definitions at the table before (which seems a staple in plenty of rules-light RPGs, which I'm not convinced Chuubo's _is_; I particularly liked it in the Romance Comedy/Drama game Blazing Rose), I've also had them work out, and I'm willing to give Chuubo's the benefit of the doubt and expect it to handle them well.

All in all, it's something I'd like to play. And I feel as if it's unique enough that I must reserve any judgment of substance until then.

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## ThreadNecro5

As its been a while since I have written some mythos, but have been collecting ideas for some, is there any ideas anyone would like to put forward/would like to see the Chrimatia do? might as well ask the people most likely to see the class, and thus most likely to play it.

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## DracoDei

Remind me what the  Chrimatia is all about?

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## Allnightmask

The mythic hoarder if I remember correctly

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## DracoDei

Taking my cues from fiction:

Scrooge McDuck - Your treasure never counts as difficult terrain for you, and you can move between it as long as their is space for it to move around you... I'm is saying it in a way that isn't precise enough for mechanical rules, but what I'm going for is you should be able to swim in your money like he does. Of course, even in copper it couldn't enough space for it to usually matter, but at least you can stand on top of a mound of coins and not have them shift under your feet like they do under others.

Rarity - 
1.) _Detect Valuables_ instead of HD/spell level base it on an exponential scale of value, and have Appraise rolls to determine the types of each thing detected al la rolling Spellcraft with _Detect Magic_.

2.)This is more about "greed" than "hoarding", but... this would be the equivalent of "Rageless Teramach". You remove the core concept of the class, and yet have something functional. Rarity is very greedy, but also very generous.

Filthy Rich (Do Princesses Dream of Electric Sheep)
*Spoiler*
Show

Fly on a pile of your wealth with a certain volume and value, and shoot small valuable objects at your enemies: I'd have it be the normal damage type for the object, but make sure you can tag Magic, Alignments (ones you actually have), and materials (using gold, platinum, or gems to do silver's combat role should be especially trivial). Naturally the projectiles are never damaged by this and vanish back into your hoard after they hit.


Slightly more generic ideas:
1.) Animate your wealth to defend itself. See Astral Constructs for a starting place?

2.) The ability to look at someone and tell the net worth of everything they own (NOT just what they are carrying).

3.) "LoJack" to find things taken from you. Perhaps have it work like the Track feat, with Appraise rolls instead of Survival? Or maybe just Spot if that is on their class list?
.
.
.
Not saying that any of these would make me want to play the class, but they would fit with the themes I guess?

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## Durazno

Maybe mythic hoarders could have an ability that transmutes their mineral wealth between different equivalent forms.  It would seem like a simple bookkeeping/flavor trick until the mythic hoarder is facing an opponent in a constrained space, and they hold out a 25,000gp gem that explodes into a sea of copper pieces.  The arena becomes a shifting, cramped nightmare for their opponent, but they can swim through with ease and strike at will.

I mean, that's super niche, of course, but it would still allow you to create patches of rough terrain and fill spaces if you need to, to say nothing of condensing chests full of coins into small adamantine ingots.

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## Jakman217

I'm not sure if someone already said a similar idea but...

Bleeding Wealth

Your body and your wealth start becoming one.

Any time you take damage you may lose wealth to negate it immediately. You pay [insert value here]/hp lost, and negate the damage immediately. This is a free action.

Potential Manifestations (in no particular order):

Body of Gold: You may spend [insert value here] to negate ability score damage.

Adamant resilience: You may spend [Insert value here] to negate ability score drain. requires Body of gold.

Diamonds are forever: You may spend [insert value here] to negate negative levels.

Purity of Silver: You may spend [insert values here] to negate status effects. [insert list for exact prices per ailment].


As an aside, please take a look at my mythic Leader, I've been needing some second oppinions of it and simply haven't gotten any. Any help would be nice. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...5#post20393725

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## ThreadNecro5

Thank you to all who have offered advice, as for what the class is, it is based around greed and manipulating and building their wealth besides otherwise owning things.




> Taking my cues from fiction:
> 
> Scrooge McDuck - Your treasure never counts as difficult terrain for you, and you can move between it as long as their is space for it to move around you... I'm is saying it in a way that isn't precise enough for mechanical rules, but what I'm going for is you should be able to swim in your money like he does. Of course, even in copper it couldn't enough space for it to usually matter, but at least you can stand on top of a mound of coins and not have them shift under your feet like they do under others.?


Nice idea, I could expand it a bit to also effect other peoples valuables and prevent any environmental hazards inherent to traversing the treasure, that way you could swim in molten gold and the like (I've read of a GM using a lake of it before). Still a bit niche but more likely to see use. I was planning something involving bathing in gold anyway, so that covers a Manifestation.




> 1.) _Detect Valuables_ instead of HD/spell level base it on an exponential scale of value, and have Appraise rolls to determine the types of each thing detected al la rolling Spellcraft with _Detect Magic_.?


I already have something like this, but the idea of rolling appraise to better determine what you detect is a good idea, will include that.




> 2.)This is more about "greed" than "hoarding", but... this would be the equivalent of "Rageless Teramach". You remove the core concept of the class, and yet have something functional. Rarity is very greedy, but also very generous.?
> 
> Filthy Rich (Do Princesses Dream of Electric Sheep)
> Fly on a pile of your wealth with a certain volume and value, and shoot small valuable objects at your enemies: I'd have it be the normal damage type for the object, but make sure you can tag Magic, Alignments (ones you actually have), and materials (using gold, platinum, or gems to do silver's combat role should be especially trivial). Naturally the projectiles are never damaged by this and vanish back into your hoard after they hit.?


Interesting. This could build into my Shintai idea.




> Slightly more generic ideas:
> 1.) Animate your wealth to defend itself. See Astral Constructs for a starting place??


I have something like this as well, turning people to gold and animating them (think of the Sapphire Dragon from Showlin Showdown). With the prior mythos idea you gave, I'm thinking on having that mythos give them a fly speed.




> 2.) The ability to look at someone and tell the net worth of everything they own (NOT just what they are carrying).?


Why did I not already think of this? simple enough excellency to include, and the fact the total value of a being possessions actually comes up in one mythos seems useful to include.




> 3.) "LoJack" to find things taken from you. Perhaps have it work like the Track feat, with Appraise rolls instead of Survival? Or maybe just Spot if that is on their class list?


I'm not sure what you mean by 'LoJack' but I can work this into the 'turn things to gold' mythos as it also curses those who steal from you, maybe include in a manifestation.

*Durazno*



> Maybe mythic hoarders could have an ability that transmutes their mineral wealth between different equivalent forms. It would seem like a simple bookkeeping/flavor trick until the mythic hoarder is facing an opponent in a constrained space, and they hold out a 25,000gp gem that explodes into a sea of copper pieces. The arena becomes a shifting, cramped nightmare for their opponent, but they can swim through with ease and strike at will.
> 
>  I mean, that's super niche, of course, but it would still allow you to create patches of rough terrain and fill spaces if you need to, to say nothing of condensing chests full of coins into small adamantine ingots.


Seems fun to play around with and simple to include, also synergises with one of DracoDei's ideas.

*Jakman217*



> I'm not sure if someone already said a similar idea but...
> 
> Bleeding Wealth
> 
>  Your body and your wealth start becoming one.
> 
>  Any time you take damage you may lose wealth to negate it immediately. You pay [insert value here]/hp lost, and negate the damage immediately. This is a free action.
> 
>  Potential Manifestations (in no particular order):
> ...


Strangely enough I pretty much already have this as a mythos. I like your way of fluffing it however so I will include that and possibly one of the manifestations. as for your class, I've been meaning to give that another look, I gave it a look a while back and decided to wait for it to develop a bit more. is its thread still ok for replying to or should I leave my opinions here?

----------


## Jakman217

Yes it should be good to comment on that thread. It's a bit old, but not that old. Plus I update it ever here and there to add or correct things.

----------


## DracoDei

> I'm not sure what you mean by 'LoJack' but I can work this into the 'turn things to gold' mythos as it also curses those who steal from you, maybe include in a manifestation.


LoJack is a trademarked system (that probably has competitors that go by other names, although it may have been the first) that installs in a car. The name is in contrast to HIjack. Basically, if your car is stolen there is a way to activate a tracking beacon that either sends out the GPS coordinates continually, or is just a signal that the police can lock onto somehow.

...I may be getting some of that wrong, but if you need more precise information, you can Google it.

Rather than giving direction and distance (at least without a sequel Excellency/A specific manifestation/knowing Mhythos of a higher degree/whatever), I thought basing it on the Track skill would be a better place to start. More fun to play that way I think?

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## Lanth Sor

Still WIP just posting because work ended.
*Spoiler: The Martyr*
Show

*The Martyr*

The last eons of the Guardian bore heavy on its being. In the end it recognized it could not protect all from the ravages of the universe. No matter how may it saved there was some who would inevitably fall. It entered a deep brewed for many eons preforming its self appointed duty with a almost zealous fervor. Until it finally fell upon an idea to use its might to remove its charges from threat until the threat no longer existed. Gathering the poor beings that called it to existence in at its start it then purified them from existence in a type of stasis until the threat of titian law bringer war was over. This act took a visualization of a great light flowing throughout existence affecting all the lesser entities not destined to be or be apart of a Titan or Law Bringer. Though the Guardian was gone its legacy remained as a notion.

As the radiant expulsion of energies simultaneously removed a group form existence it left one behind to tell the tale, the Martyr. The Martyr was born to the universe the last remnant of the Guardians greatness. But tales would garner and lead to greater fables until a Titan was born. Calling to its heel sacrifice for the good of others. As the woes of the Titans grew the Martyr learned new ways to give. Wounds that bleed taken unto it's own. Fatigue that would weaken wiped away. 

Standing in the fields of war the Martyr tended to the Titan, Unity.  Transposition of notions, healing the vast cavities in Unity's form. The sun bore spear and light, looking down on his foe he balked at the Martyr's weak form. Though crowded with ideals none carried great strength. Though guided by stories of heroism, none bore arms. Though bathed in the radiant light of the Sun, the Martyr minded not, and tended to his charge. Curious but unconcerned with things that could be stamped out by lesser Law Bringer. The Sun made stride for its target. 

The Martyr recognized the aggressive pose and lent some of its

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## DracoDei

> Still WIP just posting because work ended.
> *Spoiler: The Martyr*
> Show
> 
> The Martyr
> 
> As the radiant expulsion of energies simultaneously removed a group form existence it left one behind to tell the tale, the Martyr. The Martyr was born to the universe the last remnant of the Guardians greatness. But tales would garner and lead to greater fables until a Titan was born. Calling to its heel sacrifice for the good of others. As the woes of the Titans grew the Martyr learned new ways to give. Wounds that bleed taken unto it's own. Fatigue that would weaken wiped away. 
> 
> 
> Standing in the fields of war the Martyr tended to the Titan, Unity.  Transposition of notions, healing the vast cavities in Unity's form. The sun bore spear and light, looking down on his foe he balked at the Martyr's weak form. Though crowded with ideals none carried great strength. Though guided by stories of heroism, none bore arms. Though bathed in the radiant light of the Sun, the Martyr minded not, and tended to his charge. Curious but unconcerned with things that could be stamped out by lesser Law Bringer


1.) THANK YOU!

2.) Is the idea that The Martyr survived... something? "radiant expulsion of energies"? Was that when the world started to be stitched together, and The Martyr was still fully alive and whole at the time, but chose willingly to join the fate of its fallen brethren?

3.) Looks good so far?

A few notes on mechanical facts that might influence flavor:
1.) Most of the Mythos and Excellencies are preventative, rather than curative. You sacrifice your defense to grant that same defense to another. The curative stuff is actually static class features. Just keep that in mind when describing the scene with Sun, Unity, and Martyr. 
2.) There IS a Mythos chain that that I THINK a lot of people are going to take because the instinct for most players is to have SOME sort of offense. It is based around AoOs... so keep that in mind flavor-wise. There is another single mythos for Disarms and Sunders... still anything we can do to make people consider more options is probably good, so having those sorts of things not feature prominently in the lore could be good.


*Everyone:*
One tricky question a GM may run into when starting a mid- to high- level campaign is how much extra XPs to give a starting Phileotheysia compared to his compatriots. Extra XPs you say? Yes. With the caveat that they can only be used for purchasing Phileotheysia Mythos, Manifestations, and Excellencies. These represent the XPs that would normally be lost to revivification by means such as _Raise Dead_ and _Ressurrection_. As manifestations of the Martyr, Phileotheysia bounce back from death only more determined.

So given a starting ECL and perhaps a "lethality class" for the campaign, what would people suggest as my suggestion to the GM on that issue?

----------


## Jakman217

> Still WIP just posting because work ended.
> The Martyr [snip]


With the Martyr I kind of hit a bit of an uncomfortable feeling of overlap with the Agios, but with the right direction this should be nothing more than a substandard pet peeve that should be ignored.




> *Everyone:*
> One tricky question a GM may run into when starting a mid- to high- level campaign is how much extra XPs to give a starting Phileotheysia compared to his compatriots. Extra XPs you say? Yes. With the caveat that they can only be used for purchasing Phileotheysia Mythos, Manifestations, and Excellencies. These represent the XPs that would normally be lost to revivification by means such as _Raise Dead_ and _Ressurrection_. As manifestations of the Martyr, Phileotheysia bounce back from death only more determined.
> 
> So given a starting ECL and perhaps a "lethality class" for the campaign, what would people suggest as my suggestion to the GM on that issue?


I find the extra xp a highly questionable proposition. I'd honestly like a tiny bit more detail before I begin digging my own grave here. When the extra xp is earned, and how often you expect the character to die ordinarily are probably good questions to ask here. They do highly alter how I can look at this.

Sidenote: open to everyone, please do take a look at my Mythic Leader. It is just short of done and just needs some extra input to finish it up. Please.

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## DracoDei

> With the Martyr I kind of hit a bit of an uncomfortable feeling of overlap with the Agios, but with the right direction this should be nothing more than a substandard pet peeve that should be ignored.


I think I looked at the Agios at one time and thought that it wasn't too much overlap? I should maybe double-check...
Or did you just mean the fluff that Lanth Sor is so kindly writing for me?





> I find the extra xp a highly questionable proposition. I'd honestly like a tiny bit more detail before I begin digging my own grave here. When the extra xp is earned, and how often you expect the character to die ordinarily are probably good questions to ask here. They do highly alter how I can look at this.


Err...
Yeah, apparently I wasn't very clear at all...
Okay, how to say this...
First off, the mechanic:
*In addition, if the phileotheysia dies selflessly protecting their comrades or cause* and is returned to intelligent animation (most usually life) by a means that cause them to end up with a lower XP total than when they died, the lost XPs are instead retained as a separate pool that may only be used for purchasing mythos, manifestations, and excellencies of the phileotheysia class.* Points from this pool may also be converted into mythos points at any time at a ratio of 1 XP to 5 mythos points, although the reverse is NOT possible. 
**Most standard adventuring deaths will qualify, even getting killed by a trap that someone else set off by accident since the default assumption was that the Phileotheysia wouldnt even have been around unless it was for the purposes described.
*
[/mechanic]

If you start playing a Phileotheysia at or before the party has access to _Raise Dead_*, and play them straight through, then the "extra XP" is never just handed to you by the GM and the GM doesn't need to make any decisions (unless he is going to invoke Rule 0).
Any level higher than that? The question then becomes: "How many times (if any) did this character probably die on his way to this level, and what levels were those deaths at on average (Not counting any levels that they had access to _True Resurrection_*)?" From that, you can figure out how much the second pool starts with during character creation. Or at least if you want to "play fair" with it rather than giving less than that. 
*Or the equivalent from other systems than clerical magic that can return life to a character.




> Sidenote: open to everyone, please do take a look at my Mythic Leader. It is just short of done and just needs some extra input to finish it up. Please.


I'll see what I can do, but I don't promise anything... I have BIG energy issues.

----------


## Jakman217

> I think I looked at the Agios at one time and thought that it wasn't too much overlap? I should maybe double-check...
> Or did you just mean the fluff that Lanth Sor is so kindly writing for me?


It may just be his style coming through for me, he did write the Agios as it were. Though a peek at the agios gives the vibe that it's much more focused on defense than martyrdom. So if the phileotheysia keeps a lot closer to martyr than guardian, it should be fine.




> Err...
> Yeah, apparently I wasn't very clear at all...
> Okay, how to say this...
> First off, the mechanic:
> *In addition, if the phileotheysia dies selflessly protecting their comrades or cause* and is returned to intelligent animation (most usually life) by a means that cause them to end up with a lower XP total than when they died, the lost XPs are instead retained as a separate pool that may only be used for purchasing mythos, manifestations, and excellencies of the phileotheysia class.* Points from this pool may also be converted into mythos points at any time at a ratio of 1 XP to 5 mythos points, although the reverse is NOT possible. 
> **Most standard adventuring deaths will qualify, even getting killed by a trap that someone else set off by accident since the default assumption was that the Phileotheysia wouldnt even have been around unless it was for the purposes described.
> *
> [/mechanic]


This looks fine to me, though I worry about the XP to MP being 1:5. (I understand the logic based off of 1xp:5gp) At that rate it takes 1.8 times the xp (1,000mp/5+250xp=450xp) to pay for a exceptional mythos and about 3 times the xp requirement to pay for a mythos above that (5,000mp/5+500xp=1,500xp and so on). If you think those ratio's are fair then there's not much to say. I'd worry that it would basically let someone at level 10 or higher to die once then buy most if not all the exceptional mythos, maybe even higher tier mythos as well, but I'd have to see more to prove or disprove this worry. While a class that can easily take a number of deaths and keep rolling is fine, rewarding suicide tactics worry me.




> If you start playing a Phileotheysia at or before the party has access to _Raise Dead_*, and play them straight through, then the "extra XP" is never just handed to you by the GM and the GM doesn't need to make any decisions (unless he is going to invoke Rule 0).
> Any level higher than that? The question then becomes: "How many times (if any) did this character probably die on his way to this level, and what levels were those deaths at on average (Not counting any levels that they had access to _True Resurrection_*)?" From that, you can figure out how much the second pool starts with during character creation. Or at least if you want to "play fair" with it rather than giving less than that. 
> *Or the equivalent from other systems than clerical magic that can return life to a character.


My first, boring suggestion is to not allow it, skipping the problem in the first place. My second suggestion would be to have the players denote what levels they 'died' at and calculate from there, since raw bonus xp only rarely keeps balance. 3rd would be to require that they work from the lowest level up, or more likely the highest level down, to keep them from abusing the xp to mp conversion at minimal level cost.




> I'll see what I can do, but I don't promise anything... I have BIG energy issues.


It was meant for everyone, not just you, as I've been sitting on it for a while now with no responses and just really want some extra opinions on it.

----------


## DracoDei

> It may just be his style coming through for me, he did write the Agios as it were. Though a peek at the agios gives the vibe that it's much more focused on defense than martyrdom. So if the phileotheysia keeps a lot closer to martyr than guardian, it should be fine.


Well it is "guardian via martyrdom" a lot, but if you take the Mythos that lets you spend a full round action to give an ally an extra standard action, or the one to take the weight of gravity in the stead of someone (starts small, then scales up to _Fly_ at level 5+), those aren't exactly purely defensive buffs...




> This looks fine to me, though I worry about the XP to MP being 1:5. (I understand the logic based off of 1xp:5gp) At that rate it takes 1.8 times the xp (1,000mp/5+250xp=450xp) to pay for a exceptional mythos and about 3 times the xp requirement to pay for a mythos above that (5,000mp/5+500xp=1,500xp and so on). If you think those ratio's are fair then there's not much to say. I'd worry that it would basically let someone at level 10 or higher to die once then buy most if not all the exceptional mythos,


Dying during actual play is never to your advantage (but it might not be to your long-term detriment either)... well, except for the conversion to MP rule, but I had in mind that that wouldn't come up very often.

Also, this may not matter so much but... you can sink a really large number of XPs+MPs into manifestations and excellencies... of course, Excellencies have a geometrically increasing cost, but with 31 to choose from many people will find some options to tempt them. As for mythos, one of the Exceptionals* has 6 basic manifestations and about 7 advanced, and others** have manifestations that can be purchased multiple times (to double->triple->quadruple the range for instance). It is actually at the higher level of mythos where things start getting tighter.
*_Defensive Strike_ the one that beefs up your AoOs.
**_Carry the Burden_ is one example (actually has three multi-purchasable I think, one for range, and one for increasing the number of targets, and one for reducing the amount of weight you actually take on compared to the weight of your targets and everything they are carrying).

If bonus XPs are not awarded for character generation, and probably even if they are, starting a level back from the rest of the party to buy up more options should be an option worth considering.



> maybe even higher tier mythos as well, but I'd have to see more to prove or disprove this worry. While a class that can easily take a number of deaths and keep rolling is fine, rewarding suicide tactics worry me.


Dying during actual play is never to your advantage (but it might not be to your long-term detriment either)... well, except for the conversion to MP rule, but I had in mind that that wouldn't come up very often.

I don't really have a sense for considering what you are asking me to consider. I just wanted a Phileotheysia to not have to worry TOO much about being glutted with extra XPs in that pool, but not have the goods to generate the Mythos points to combine with that... especially RIGHT after being returned to life. For that "came back strong" feel. 

What would you say to a strong suggestion that if they give the bonus XPs it should come with the rule "You can't convert XP from that pool into Mythos Points, and it is 'Use it or Lose it' on the XPs in the pool that you start the game with."?



> My first, boring suggestion is to not allow it, skipping the problem in the first place.


And I'm sure a lot of GMs would take that route... it isn't what I would personally do, but I could definitely see it being a popular option.



> My second suggestion would be to have the players denote what levels they 'died' at and calculate from there, since raw bonus xp only rarely keeps balance.


There would be little or no reason to have died that way... the entire point here is to make it so that a character who is generated at, say, level 15, approximately as powerful as one that was played all the way from 1 to 15. The second one probably died as many times as the rest of the party (well, possibly more, but that "more" would come out of the their "official posted starting XPs" that every character gets... which would be another, somewhat separate matter to cover), and thus by the time they all arrive at level 15, the Phileotheysia has, in effect, more XPs.

To put it another way, a character at high levels has EARNED more XPs than they HAVE... unless they didn't die at all, or they are a Phileotheysia (sorta...).



> 3rd would be to require that they work from the lowest level up, or more likely the highest level down, to keep them from abusing the xp to mp conversion at minimal level cost.


Converting XPs to GP (which, at the end of the day are what MP are) is generally considered a bad idea by optimizers I think? And at what level it happens only effects how many bonus XPs you gain. Assuming you died at higher levels would mean that you start at the same level as everyone else, but with more XPs in the secondary pool.

Perhaps if you HAVE to assume they died more, and thus generally start a level behind, but they DO get more XPs at game start than the rest of the party?




> It was meant for everyone, not just you, as I've been sitting on it for a while now with no responses and just really want some extra opinions on it.


I knew that. I just know that this is the second time you have asked... maybe if you posted in that thread what your areas of greatest concern are?

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## Jakman217

> Well [sinp]


I think it'll be fine. The current ideas are not so overlapping that I'd worry about it.



> Also, this may not matter so much but... you can sink a really large number of XPs+MPs into manifestations and excellencies... of course, Excellencies have a geometrically increasing cost, but with 31 to choose from many people will find some options to tempt them. As for mythos, one of the Exceptionals* has 6 basic manifestations and about 7 advanced, and others** have manifestations that can be purchased multiple times (to double->triple->quadruple the range for instance). It is actually at the higher level of mythos where things start getting tighter.
> *_Defensive Strike_ the one that beefs up your AoOs.
> **_Carry the Burden_ is one example (actually has three multi-purchasable I think, one for range, and one for increasing the number of targets, and one for reducing the amount of weight you actually take on compared to the weight of your targets and everything they are carrying).
> 
> If bonus XPs are not awarded for character generation, and probably even if they are, starting a level back from the rest of the party to buy up more options should be an option worth considering.


I'm not against letting them trade levels for more options, since to an extent everyone has that ability, but they have a far more efficient, and far cheaper, way of doing it. Character Creation at higher levels pretty much takes the assumption that you never lost any money and (martyrs excluded) never died and runs with it. Hence unless you put a price on extra xp and backstory deaths, they effectively get richer from doing it and have a much easier time getting extra mythos.



> Dying during actual play is never to your advantage (but it might not be to your long-term detriment either)... well, except for the conversion to MP rule, but I had in mind that that wouldn't come up very often.
> 
> I don't really have a sense for considering what you are asking me to consider. I just wanted a Phileotheysia to not have to worry TOO much about being glutted with extra XPs in that pool, but not have the goods to generate the Mythos points to combine with that... especially RIGHT after being returned to life. For that "came back strong" feel.


If you lost your gold every time you died I could easily understand where you're coming from, but 9 times out of 10, the rest of the party is going to pick over your corpse and grab your stuff. At worst you lose the value of being brought back from the dead. Plus, if your character is a martyr who's expected to die, then the likelyhood of them finishing the fight without you is much higher, making it more likely you'll get your stuff back. Plus if you make your death worth it, suddenly, paying the 5,000 gp to revive someone who doesn't lose xp is far more profitable.



> What would you say to a strong suggestion that if they give the bonus XPs it should come with the rule "You can't convert XP from that pool into Mythos Points, and it is 'Use it or Lose it' on the XPs in the pool that you start the game with."?


I would say the use it or lose it with a no conversion would solve the problem. It does feel a bit like a punishment doing it that way though, but I can't think of a better way to keep it from being abused at creation. Plus, if you use this mechanism, they may as well not have backstory deaths and pay the ordinary way.



> There would be little or no reason to have died that way... the entire point here is to make it so that a character who is generated at, say, level 15, approximately as powerful as one that was played all the way from 1 to 15. The second one probably died as many times as the rest of the party (well, possibly more, but that "more" would come out of the their "official posted starting XPs" that every character gets... which would be another, somewhat separate matter to cover), and thus by the time they all arrive at level 15, the Phileotheysia has, in effect, more XPs.
> 
> To put it another way, a character at high levels has EARNED more XPs than they HAVE... unless they didn't die at all, or they are a Phileotheysia (sorta...).


I think it's a bit odd to believe that a character who isn't a martyr would put a death into their backstory. Most people probably wouldn't put any deaths in their backstory. So all that really matters is how many deaths has the Phileotheysia had. The only exception to this rule I can think of are unusual players who often add deaths to their backstory, and a player joining mid-campaign, a massive mess if the group does not have always equal xp value (deaths included).



> Converting XPs to GP (which, at the end of the day are what MP are) is generally considered a bad idea by optimizers I think? And at what level it happens only effects how many bonus XPs you gain. Assuming you died at higher levels would mean that you start at the same level as everyone else, but with more XPs in the secondary pool.


This is true when trying to buy magic items who's price increases exponentially, hence making xp->gp far inferior. But the rate for mythos features is linear, or for excellencies geometric. It may not be perfect, but the point at which converting stops being efficient is much further down the line.



> Perhaps if you HAVE to assume they died more, and thus generally start a level behind, but they DO get more XPs at game start than the rest of the party?


Following up on the first part of this, assuming that your other party members have died at all is giving them more credit than they deserve. If everyone has the same xp in the party, then there's no reason for the phileothysia to get more. At best they are guaranteed to have either the highest xp or equivalent to the highest, and at that point it's up to the player as to when they died.

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## Jakman217

So, to make my questions for the Megaligeti more known.

Quick Summary. It's a mythic leader, based around 5 branches of roughly equal importance:
Paragon, AKA I want to be a better on my own.Commander, Let's be a bard or more accurately a better marshal to my friends.Diplomat, Let's do stuff out of combat!Manipulator, "Honestly I wanted to play Zero from Code Geass" the branch. AndAutocrat, Do What I Tell You!
Between these are balanced the abilities of the class. You can pick and chose from the branches to play what you want without demanding anything other than leading.

So, the first real question is asking for some help on the excellencies. Currently, it's kind of hit and miss with some like Bottomless Hunger for Pleasure, being among my more favorite abilities. However, I'm just having trouble thinking of more mythos. With 2 open excellencies in Commander, Diplomat, and Manipulator, as well as an Autocrat I need more ideas to fill out these abilities. 
On top of that is my least favorite Excellencies is Ever Vigilant Watcher which is just a free feat and cha to initiative, super thin, rather boring and bland honestly.

Next is the bottom of the barrel hit with the exalted mythos, there is no Commander or Manipulator mythos and I'm just having trouble thinking of things for them. 

Lastly is (what I think is) the general suck of the Diplomat line. It's feels like a bunch of thinly defined abilities that just don't really work for ordinary games. First with the contract abilities which are rather meh, then with the 'gambit game' later on. Throw on a better made, but rather derivative mythos that may as well be Fear-of-the-Divine Producing Stare part 1.5 (there's already a full part 2 for it).

So, to wrap up my long questions for you guys, I need only a few more ideas, a few rehashes and fixes to make things better and more interesting, and a general balance check to make sure I didn't over or under-power it.

The class in more detail is here and, again, any real comments or discussion should probably take place over there where it can be more focused.

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## DracoDei

> I'm not against letting them trade levels for more options, since to an extent everyone has that ability, but they have a far more efficient, and far cheaper, way of doing it. Character Creation at higher levels pretty much takes the assumption that you never lost any money and (martyrs excluded) never died and runs with it.


[Vitrol NOT directed at you]What in the world of INSANITY is THIS utter garbage?[/vitrol]

Honest questions: Is it just some sort of simplifying assumption? If so, what does it simplify? Why SHOULDN'T, for instance, WBL represent what you have left after a reasonable number of revivifications*, replacement for sundered/disenchanted/stolen/looted from your body before it could be recovered/destroyed on natural 1 on a saving throw after it failed its save too?!
*With MAYBE some error margin for campaigns that vary significantly from the "default assumed lethality".

And how could one know that it DOESN'T include that sort of thing? I'm nearly certain that it is intended to include allowances for expended limited use items (potions, scrolls, wand and staff charges, etc).

As for XPs, other than this specific class (or other equally oddball and RARE cases), why would how many times you have died on your way to a given XP total even matter, and thus how could their be any meaningful pre-existing assumption on that particular question before now?

EDIT: I'm making a note in the GoogleDoc to scale or limit this class feature according to proportion of Phileotheysia levels... wouldn't want people dipping the class in super-high "revolving door afterlife" campaigns just for that... although the fact that you can only spend those XPs on Phileotheysia features is a big limiter... oh, and because of generic limits on Mythos classes that means that you need at least half your levels in Phileotheysia in order to be able to spend those XPs anyway. Is that enough to cover it?

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## Jakman217

> [Vitrol NOT directed at you]What in the world of INSANITY is THIS utter garbage?[/vitrol]
> 
> Honest questions: Is it just some sort of simplifying assumption? If so, what does it simplify? Why SHOULDN'T, for instance, WBL represent what you have left after a reasonable number of revivifications*, replacement for sundered/disenchanted/stolen/looted from your body before it could be recovered/destroyed on natural 1 on a saving throw after it failed its save too?!
> *With MAYBE some error margin for campaigns that vary significantly from the "default assumed lethality".


No vitrol taken personally.



> And how could one know that it DOESN'T include that sort of thing? I'm nearly certain that it is intended to include allowances for expended limited use items (potions, scrolls, wand and staff charges, etc).
> As for XPs, other than this specific class (or other equally oddball and RARE cases), why would how many times you have died on your way to a given XP total even matter, and thus how could their be any meaningful pre-existing assumption on that particular question before now?
> 
> EDIT: I'm making a note in the GoogleDoc to scale or limit this class feature according to proportion of Phileotheysia levels... wouldn't want people dipping the class in super-high "revolving door afterlife" campaigns just for that... although the fact that you can only spend those XPs on Phileotheysia features is a big limiter... oh, and because of generic limits on Mythos classes that means that you need at least half your levels in Phileotheysia in order to be able to spend those XPs anyway. Is that enough to cover it?


To be fair yes, it is a simplifying assumption. I've never seen anywhere that characters at higher levels are supposed to expect to have died in their backstory/pre-campaign adventuring days. And, maybe it's a bias from my sessions, but I believe in my years of playing that at most one player built a death into their backstory. On top of that the rules for making characters at higher levels don't include clauses for if you died in your backstory. 

Creating a good way of including backstory deaths is highly complex and difficult. You have to take into account the level lost, the price paid to bring you back, if your particularly detailed any material wealth lost in the process of leveling. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'd say that unless you have express reason to benefit you probably will not include it.

The limit of phileotheysia abilities and stuff is perfectly fine, it makes sense and allowing it to buy other class abilities would have me literally up in arms against the idea.

To be fair, the way you have it written as it stands is fine. It's direct enough and, if not directly included in it, still has a price to it. It limits the penalty for death, which for a martyr makes sense and is not bad. 

The problem of including allowed death in character creation for the class is that unless you dictate the cost to bring them back is included most people will assume that the being killed and brought back was effectively free, as per most backstory things. Thus they lose a level for more features and (effectively) more gold.

----------


## DracoDei

(Interspersed responses added in edits... beginning of potentially outdated thoughts will be noted, but some of those still apply... meh, more complicated than that now that I look at it again, but I have put enough sweat into writing this post... questions welcome if anyone needs to know what happened when...)




> No vitrol taken personally.
> 
> 
> To be fair yes, it is a simplifying assumption. I've never seen anywhere that characters at higher levels are supposed to expect to have died in their backstory/pre-campaign adventuring days.


Why would they bother mentioning something that doesn't make a difference, and is common sense after a little thought?



> And, maybe it's a bias from my sessions, but I believe in my years of playing that at most one player built a death into their backstory. On top of that the rules for making characters at higher levels don't include clauses for if you died in your backstory.


What mechanical difference would it make usually?



> Creating a good way of including backstory deaths is highly complex and difficult. You have to take into account the level lost, the price paid to bring you back, if your particularly detailed any material wealth lost in the process of leveling.


It would fall under "overhead"...
If a party contains 2 14th level characters, and one of them started out as a so poor he had to learn to steal just to survive, and the other one is a third son of a noble family who only went adventuring because he was bored out of his gourd with his life of luxury and decided to see what those spells he learned can actually DO...

Well, both of them are now walking around in magic items worth more than that noble-families net-worth, so what is the difference where they started from?

Similarly, if I want to say that my 200 year old elf ranger with Favored Enemy[Goblinoid], has been tirelessly hunting the foes of his race, and would be twice his level and much richer if he didn't regularly end up temporarily metaphysically inconvenienced... why should that change anything compared to the warlock who made a major pact with a visiting Balor yesterday and whose only experience with fighting prior to the start of the campaign was sparring as part of a town militia? (Needing to do interesting things to go up levels is for actual play. Backstory and NPCs have no such requirement in my book... but that might just be me.).



> I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'd say that unless you have express reason to benefit you probably will not include it.


I agree that you wouldn't tend to _mention_ it, but if one sat down and thought about it...?



> The limit of phileotheysia abilities and stuff is perfectly fine, it makes sense and allowing it to buy other class abilities would have me literally up in arms against the idea.
> 
> To be fair, the way you have it written as it stands is fine. It's direct enough and, if not directly included in it, still has a price to it. It limits the penalty for death, which for a martyr makes sense and is not bad. 
> 
> The problem of including allowed death in character creation for the class is that unless you dictate the cost to bring them back is included most people will assume that the being killed and brought back was effectively free, as per most backstory things. Thus they lose a level for more features and (effectively) more gold.


Err... see, (as I _think_ I may have mentioned before) I would assume that the starting XPs and ECLs for a high level party _implicitly_ include all the characters having died various numbers of times to arrive at those numbers. If they don't put it into their backstories it is because _it is too minor a detail to be worth mentioning_. "Everybody dies. That is what revivification spells are for in the first place. Revolving door afterlives..." etc.

What I _ideally_ was hoping to come up with at the end of all this was a chart that gave starting XP pools, sort of _vaguely_ like the Artificer's Craft reserve, that you get when creating a character at a given level, but NOT when leveling up. There would be different columns for different degrees of lethality of the campaign as it is presumed to have played out prior to the actual start of game. The GM would pick said level of lethality (or take what I think will unfortunately be the popular option of ignoring the whole thing). So, no, you wouldn't start a level behind... [EDIT]I may need to nerf the class otherwise to make up for this (regardless of if the deaths happen during play or during backstory), but turning down some numbers shouldn't be that hard, right?[/EDIT]

Slightly older take on this:
I feel like we are talking in circles a bit...

...anyone else got anything to add?

...maybe I should just ask people in the non-homebrew parts of the boards what their experiences have been in actual play for number of levels gained between deaths and how they would describe the lethality of those campaigns. I can then make the conservative estimate that Phileotheysia don't die any more often than any other class. If I don't explain _why_ I'm asking, I can probably avoid most of the problem...? I dunno...

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## Jakman217

> Err... see, (as I _think_ I may have mentioned before) I would assume that the starting XPs and ECLs for a high level party _implicitly_ include all the characters having died various numbers of times to arrive at those numbers. If they don't put it into their backstories it is because _it is too minor a detail to be worth mentioning_. "Everybody dies. That is what revivification spells are for in the first place. Revolving door afterlives..." etc.
> 
> What I _ideally_ was hoping to come up with at the end of all this was a chart that gave starting XP pools, sort of _vaguely_ like the Artificer's Craft reserve, that you get when creating a character at a given level, but NOT when leveling up. There would be different columns for different degrees of lethality of the campaign as it is presumed to have played out prior to the actual start of game. The GM would pick said level of lethality (or take what I think will unfortunately be the popular option of ignoring the whole thing).
> 
> I feel like we are talking in circles a bit...
> 
> ...anyone else got anything to add?
> .


I get the feeling of talking in circles as well. BUT...

I find it hard for someone to say that death is *ever* a minor part of a campaign. Characters generally don't forget dying. Saying that a character who starts at level X has died at least Y times is, in my experience, making a much more massive assumption than assuming they didn't die up to that point. I've played and run many difficult games and 9/10 times they players will run before they can be killed. But then again, I prefer to play perma-death games because death is a big deal and you should rightly fear for your character's life.

Now that you mention the Artificer, my answer of begrudging cooperation is to base it off of the artificer. Though, the artificer gets away with it because it only gains more as it levels, can never gain more at any point other point, and it's expressly for enchanting, which does get extremely expensive, extremely fast.

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## ThreadNecro5

I just had the thought that the Chrimatia, due to its money is Exp thing, I should specify what happens to characters starting over 1st level.

So would wording like the following be suitable/balanced?

*Spoiler*
Show

 A Chrimatia who begins at a higher level than 1st has starting GP equal to the amount of Exp they would otherwise start with which may not be spent in character creation, and may purchase things using the recommended starting GP a character of their level would receive but any unspent GP from this total is lost.

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## Jakman217

> I just had the thought that the Chrimatia, due to its money is Exp thing, I should specify what happens to characters starting over 1st level.
> 
> So would wording like the following be suitable/balanced?
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
>  A Chrimatia who begins at a higher level than 1st has starting GP equal to the amount of Exp they would otherwise start with which may not be spent in character creation, and may purchase things using the recommended starting GP a character of their level would receive but any unspent GP from this total is lost.


It's not perfect, but they should work. A word of warning is that after about level 6 the expected character wealth by that level is greater than the xp needed for the next level, meaning that at high enough levels they can just not buy stuff and get more levels.

An alternative idea I just had was that you could use the expected wealth per level as wealth needed per level, effectively swapping to xp needed per level and expected wealth. Since the xp between levels quickly becomes less than the gold needed between levels it makes things better balanced at higher starting levels while only slightly giving them an advantage at lower levels. Plus, since they get xp as extra gold it replaced their expected wealth per level.

Sidequestion, is the wealth of the chrimatia based on raw gp or total accumulated value (all currently existing items and wealth in the character's possession?

If you're not sure what I'm talking about you can see the xp chart here, and expected total wealth/level here.

edit: Or a better idea would be to combine expected wealth at level +1/2 xp per level. Would probably work better than just one or the other. Arguments can be made for other formula.

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## ThreadNecro5

> It's not perfect, but they should work. A word of warning is that after about level 6 the expected character wealth by that level is greater than the xp needed for the next level, meaning that at high enough levels they can just not buy stuff and get more levels.
> 
> An alternative idea I just had was that you could use the expected wealth per level as wealth needed per level, effectively swapping to xp needed per level and expected wealth. Since the xp between levels quickly becomes less than the gold needed between levels it makes things better balanced at higher starting levels while only slightly giving them an advantage at lower levels. Plus, since they get xp as extra gold it replaced their expected wealth per level.


Going by your concern in the first paragraph either I have worded the text in the reverse to what I intended, or one of us as read something wrong (specifically I am not understanding how extra levels could be gained), my intent for how things were to function was, using a character starting at 10th LV as an example:
Begin with 45,000GP in order to have the minimum to be level 10.
Have 49,000 GP to spend on assorted stuff for starting gear. Presume 40,000 is spent.
The remaining 9000 GP is not gained by the Chrimatia, and is gone.

Looking at things now however I think I may change it to only gain 50% WBL to spend in character creation to minimise buying a ludicrous amount of rope or something and selling it immediately for GP to gain levels, and similar shenanigans. As to your second paragraph, I may use that idea depending on how discussion goes.




> Sidequestion, is the wealth of the chrimatia based on raw gp or total accumulated value (all currently existing items and wealth in the character's possession?


If by wealth you mean the amount tracked for counting when you gain a level and such, then you only count the raw GP total. but now that I think about it, it would make sense to count the contents of the vault as well, so gems, jewellery and the like are also counted, but not things like buildings and businesses or stuff that you own but wouldn't go into the vault or be traditionally regarded as valuable's (probably exempt Magic items from counting if they have been used in the passed week or so). Opinions?




> edit: Or a better idea would be to combine expected wealth at level +1/2 xp per level. Would probably work better than just one or the other. Arguments can be made for other formula.


I'm not to sure on this the final numbers seem a bit high, but I'm not good with numbers and may not be following things entirely.

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## Jakman217

> Going by your concern in the first paragraph either I have worded the text in the reverse to what I intended, or one of us as read something wrong (specifically I am not understanding how extra levels could be gained), my intent for how things were to function was, using a character starting at 10th LV as an example:
> Begin with 45,000GP in order to have the minimum to be level 10.
> Have 49,000 GP to spend on assorted stuff for starting gear. Presume 40,000 is spent.
> The remaining 9000 GP is not gained by the Chrimatia, and is gone.
> 
> Looking at things now however I think I may change it to only gain 50% WBL to spend in character creation to minimise buying a ludicrous amount of rope or something and selling it immediately for GP to gain levels, and similar shenanigans. As to your second paragraph, I may use that idea depending on how discussion goes.


Saying use it or lose it on the starting wealth for items helps a bit, but you seem to have realized the flaw in that as well. If a charactre spent all their 49k gold, then got it back at half price, they would have 69,500 gp, in xp amount that's equivalent to level 12.



> If by wealth you mean the amount tracked for counting when you gain a level and such, then you only count the raw GP total. but now that I think about it, it would make sense to count the contents of the vault as well, so gems, jewellery and the like are also counted, but not things like buildings and businesses or stuff that you own but wouldn't go into the vault or be traditionally regarded as valuable's (probably exempt Magic items from counting if they have been used in the passed week or so). Opinions?


I would say not including items in the vault would be silly, otherwise it'll make it seem worthless. Not counting buildings/businesses and/or immaterial wealth is fine and probably for the best. Wouldn't want the chrimatia to suddenly gain ten levels from gaining a large business afterall. I would say including magic items is also a good idea with the understanding that if you use them up (potions/wands/etc.) then they you lose their value. Though you could consider them to be half the value because that's the standard selling price, I'd say not to bother as it's easier to track the whole value of the weapon then the partial value of it.



> I'm not to sure on this the final numbers seem a bit high, but I'm not good with numbers and may not be following things entirely.


The main reason is that any xp they gain is automatically converted to extra gp for them (am I right on this or misreading an earlier post) and around their wealth by level value on top of that. If you increase the gp needed for a level it negates some of the starting wealth issue. Also, if you include magic items in their wealth it means they'll never really lose money on buying stuff so long as it isn't limited uses. 

That's my main reason why I think you should increase the needed gp for levels. It removes (or lessens) the problems of them never spending money, including their items in their wealth, and helps keep them from simply selling everything to gain more levels. Plus, if your a DM who makes sure everyone has wealth by level, then you pretty much ensure the chrimatia is going to be gaining a few extra levels.

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## DracoDei

*Regarding Chrimatia:*
Earlier I said that throwing gold pieces that bypass DR x/Silver was especially thematic. To that I'm going to add that using diamond (or, for the more technically astute, sapphires and related materials) to by-pass DR x/Adamintine would also be an especially good fit.

*Links to other threads of relevance to Phileotheysia:*
As long as I am here, let me throw these up just in case anyone is interested...
1.) I asked that question about levels lost to revivification in the roleplaying forum. Responses so far seem to be "About once in that whole range" (2 people) or "My group uses in-combat revivification to avoid the issue whenever possible, and draws up a new character rather than playing a level back from the rest of the party." (1 person).

2.) I had created a sequel mythos that built on the one that takes part of the target's damage for them. It allowed sharing of ability score reduction (damage, drain, burn, etc), and eventually negative levels. Then I did an Exalted version that can do all of the above, but spreads the harm out across the whole party, rather than just splitting it between the Phileotheysia and the original target. I then turned most of the results BACK into spells, and posted them HERE.

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## ThreadNecro5

> The main reason is that any xp they gain is automatically converted to extra gp for them (am I right on this or misreading an earlier post) and around their wealth by level value on top of that. If you increase the gp needed for a level it negates some of the starting wealth issue. Also, if you include magic items in their wealth it means they'll never really lose money on buying stuff so long as it isn't limited uses. 
> 
> That's my main reason why I think you should increase the needed gp for levels. It removes (or lessens) the problems of them never spending money, including their items in their wealth, and helps keep them from simply selling everything to gain more levels. Plus, if your a DM who makes sure everyone has wealth by level, then you pretty much ensure the chrimatia is going to be gaining a few extra levels.


Point taken, I'll work on adding this stuff in. 


*Reply to DracoDei:*



> Earlier I said that throwing gold pieces that bypass DR x/Silver was especially thematic. To that I'm going to add that using diamond (or, for the more technically astute, sapphires and related materials) to by-pass DR x/Adamintine would also be an especially good fit.


I forgot to add this in, will do so. I think I'll work it out by having the coin-tossing Mythos count as silver if the die rolled is large enough, and for Adamantine use an even higher damage. I can post the updated mythos below while I'm posting some other new ones.


*New/Updated Mythos:*
*Basic*:
*The Toss of a Coin*
*Spoiler*
Show

Prerequisites: -

You may make a ranged touch attack to throw a handful of money as a standard action. You choose any single dice to roll (a D100 is treated as one dice in this case), the creature takes an amount of damage equal to the result of the dice roll and you lose an equal amount of GP.

If you cannot pay the full amount equal to the dice roll, you instead take the same amount of damage, that cannot be healed in any way until you pay an amount of GP equal to the amount you could not pay +50%. If the dice rolled is a D8 or larger dice this damage bypasses DR X/Silver. If the dice is a D20 or larger the damage also bypasses DR X/Adamantine.


*Self-Indulgent Urge Exploitation*
Prerequisites: -

*Spoiler*
Show

As a standard action you may target a creature you can see within 60ft and force them to make a will save. Should the creature fail the save they are compelled to work according to their own personal wants and desires over working along with the current situation. They are compelled to do this even in the face of danger but otherwise will act in accordance with their personality. For example a member of a group of raiders could try and make of with as much as they can carry then and there abandoning their comrades, they could intermediately betray their leader having been waiting for the time to do so, or in the case of some beings declare some competition for leadership. Alternatively a town guard standing watch could decide to shirk their duties and head to the tavern. The duration of this Mythos varies depending weather the target is under stressful conditions such as combat, for example the raider in the above example would be but not the guard. When the target is under stressful conditions this Mythos lasts for 1d4+1 rounds, otherwise it lasts for either one hour or until the target is reminded they have other duties to preform/more important things to do.

_Advanced Manifestations
Covetous idol_
As a standard action you may infuse this Mythoss effects into an item. While an item is infused in this way you cannot use this Mythos unless you possess the Awaken Avaricious Desire Manifestation, in which case you reduce the number of creatures you may target by one. You gain blindsense 10ft to each infused object and as a free action may trigger its effect as a standard action, targeting each creature within 10ft of the infused object with the effects of this Mythos.

_Awaken Avaricious Desire_
As a single standard action, you may target a number of creatures with this Mythos equal to your Charisma Modifier.



*Fantastic*(?):
*The Price of Loyalty*

*Spoiler*
Show

The Chrimatia takes no penalty on preforming a rushed Diplomacy check if they pay 10GP per creature they wish to not take the penalty on during the action (this appears in the possession of the being that diplomacy is being used on). Additionally by paying an amount of GP equal to the creatures total HDx50 you may improve the creatures attitude by one step after the result of the Diplomacy check is determined.

_Basic Manifestations:
Actually Decent Fellows_
You may preform a rushed Diplomacy check on a number of creatures within 100ft at a time equal to your Charisma Modifier as a Full-Round Action. For the check their attention is temporarily drawn to you so that they hear you out.

_Under New Employ_
Your diplomacy checks may raise a creatures Attitude to you to Fanatic, as detailed under the rules for Epic Level Characters. All creatures who are Fanatic to you are considered your property.

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## Jakman217

> *Fantastic*(?):
> *The Price of Loyalty*
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> The Chrimatia takes no penalty on preforming a rushed Diplomacy check if they pay 10GP per creature they wish to not take the penalty on during the action (this appears in the possession of the being that diplomacy is being used on). Additionally by paying an amount of GP equal to the creatures total HDx50 you may improve the creatures attitude by one step after the result of the Diplomacy check is determined.
> 
> _Basic Manifestations:
> ...


I consider the ability to buy worshipers to be a bit too far, but then that may be because in my own class I've avoided the attitude thing. Other than the ability to buy fanaticism this seems fine to me.


Another question for everyone however.

Have you seen the series Sakamoto, desu ga? Because I'm thinking of making a mythos class around the idea of being SUPA COOL. Basically a class that is around being cool in everything, even to the point of pointlessness. What do you guys think? It is kind of meant to be a semi-silly class, but I could have fun playing with it.

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## DracoDei

> *Reply to DracoDei:*
> 
> 
> I forgot to add this in, will do so. I think I'll work it out by having the coin-tossing Mythos count as silver if the die rolled is large enough, and for Adamantine use an even higher damage. I can post the updated mythos below while I'm posting some other new ones.
> 
> 
> *New/Updated Mythos:*
> *Basic*:
> *The Toss of a Coin*
> ...


This seems *mechanically*... well, 1 GP per point of damage is extremely cheap, but that may be fine depending on tier. One thing I would say is that PbP players may be especially prone to claiming that dice with weird numbers of sides exist (and they physically exist too for a lot of things... I've seen d3s d30s and maybe even d28s). The major problem with this is that you could choose, for example, a d9000 to have a very good chance of one-shotting the BBEG, for a basically trivial expenditure of resources. The one mitigating factor is that the fact that it is a single die means that there is an AWFUL lot of variation, which introduces an strong element of risk. Thus why I picked a d9000 rather than a d1000.

tl;dr Limit it to the standard: d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d100, or (my preferred option), limit it to d100 and smaller.

Maybe have an Exalted sequel that lets you go to d1000s, but with anything over a d100 having a 5 to 1 conversion factor instead of 1 to 1? 2 to 1? Something?

*Flavor-wise:*
Even a 100 GP diamond is going to be pretty small, and thus doesn't feel right flavor-wise. Well, unless your response is "This is the mythic HOARDER, not the mythic SPENDER.", in which case I would fluff it as throwing a lot more than that, but most of it boomerangs right back into your money-pouch after hitting, with the loss representing only the damage (including tiny fragments of coins and bars and such left in the target) done to the treasure in question. Note I said TREASURE, because being able to throw coins, but not gemstones is silly. Copper amulets that are worth x1000 the value off the copper due to the workmanship* might or might not fit the fluff you are going for.

*Great Master level stuff... how much do you think Da Vinci paid for the canvas and paint for the Mona Lisa?

All of which pales in comparison to the fact that you stripped out ever bit of the flavor I was suggesting by not specifically calling out "gold is better than silver" and "nobody can tell me that diamonds aren't as good as adamintine!"* as the narrative logic behind the DR bypasses. This is mythos. The fluff is important.





> Have you seen the series Sakamoto, desu ga? Because I'm thinking of making a mythos class around the idea of being SUPA COOL. Basically a class that is around being cool in everything, even to the point of pointlessness. What do you guys think? It is kind of meant to be a semi-silly class, but I could have fun playing with it.


Not seen the series, but given that someone was at least trying to make the Mythic Yandere Girlfriend, I think you are within the bounds of what might be reasonable to attempt.

That said, it seems a bit vague of a concept so expect to have to change the name of what you are going for, or at least be very careful and/or repetitive about explaining which specific definition of "cool" you are using... Oh, and such definitions should be through enough to work without referring to any outside sources. This is a general rule I think is good to apply, because people's reference pools can vary greatly.

While I'm at it, there is one mythos whose wording I am especially concerned about.
*Spoiler: PLEASE tell me if I am wearing anyone out... there is a much more important issue with this class that I have been putting off.*
Show


All you need to know about its pre-requisite is that (at the class levels in question) it grants the Phileotheysia SR of Level+5, which can be transferred to every ally within 30', with those within 10' gaining a +5 bonus to it.

*As it currently stands:*
*Spoiler: As the mythos I need a double check on the wording currently stands.*
Show

Legendary Mythos
*Holding the Battlefield* [Sacrifice] 
*Prerequisite:* Phileotheysia Level 16, Spellcraft 19 Ranks, _Shield of the Soul_ (Fantastic Mythos, see that mythos itself for its further prerequisites) 

What use to defend the bodies of your comrades if the very air around them can be replaced with barriers that impede them from rallying together to defend themselves?! This shall not stand!

As a Swift action you may transfer the spell resistance granted by _Shield of the Soul_ to everything and everyone within 30 that is not yourself, an non-corpse object you are carrying*, or an enemy. This spell resistance gains a +5 bonus when so transferred.

There are several further exceptions to the normal rules for spell resistance:

This applies against supernatural abilities. If no clear way of determining the effective caster level for such abilities exists, use the class levels or hit-dice of the class or race that grants that ability.

It does not apply to spells, abilities, etc. by your allies or you.

It applies only to spells that grant their caster meaningful information (including all divinations), or materially affect the object or creature in question. See end of following paragraph for one example of a case where this spell resistance does not apply.

It applies even to spells that do not normally allow spell resistance, but in such cases ONLY affects the part of the spell that is within that radius. For instance a _Wall of Stone_ would appear with the part that would lay within the area of this mythos excised out of it, and _Twinned Acid Orb_ could have one one of its orbs vanish without effect upon upon striking an ally within the radius of this effect (assuming the caster failed the SR roll), while the other, which might or might not enter this radius, but whose target is outside it would strike its target without impediment. Both orbs would wink out upon entering the radius except that they are not materially affecting the air in any meaningful way, unlike the aforementioned _Wall of Stone_ which replaces said air more than just by flying through it leaving turbulence in its wake. This also means that a _Fireball_ could damage a particular ally regardless of what else made its saving throw (except for a barrier that would block the _Fireball_ if it had been destroyed). In other words, no, the air doesnt provide total cover just because the air made its spell-resistance roll to not be fractionally heated as the flames passed through it.

Note that if a spell has an area defined spatially, but effectively targets your enemies, then this mythos does nothing to stop that. For one example of this see _http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilitySphere.htm]Invisibility Sphere[/URL]_.

*Jerky, and leather dont count, a dead familiar does. Im sure you can work out the distinction from there...



*Spoiler: Ideas for modifications, including Advanced manifestations to add.*
Show



Make this Exalted Tier?... Probably not!

Split this into several mythos since it covers so much more ground than the original?

For simplicity, have this roll only ONCE per spell, at least when it comes to objects? That would keep any arguments about where the boundaries between objects lay (is a cloud the same as the air around it? If you have dry land smoothly transitioning to mud, then muddy water, then clear water where do the transitions happen, if at all?). Post this somewhere OTHER than the main bank of mythos FIRST to get a double-check on the wording.

*Advanced* manifestation ideas:

1.)Something that requires SR to be rolled for spells passing through the area to target non-enemies?

2.) Area increase? It is already a pretty big area perhaps a separate mythos for that?

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## Jakman217

> Not seen the series, but given that someone was at least trying to make the Mythic Yandere Girlfriend, I think you are within the bounds of what might be reasonable to attempt.
> 
> That said, it seems a bit vague of a concept so expect to have to change the name of what you are going for, or at least be very careful and/or repetitive about explaining which specific definition of "cool" you are using... Oh, and such definitions should be through enough to work without referring to any outside sources. This is a general rule I think is good to apply, because people's reference pools can vary greatly.


I would say the class in more general sense could be the illusion of self-confidence becoming reality. It's a mythos class that would gain power from the superficial, and depend entirely upon it's own self confidence. I could call them a mythic fashionista, but that's not really appropriate. A mythic liar could be a way to do it (and turn the 'coolness' of the character into lying to themself), but then I'd be making a different class (and it may overlap too much with the mythic bard as that class stands). I can't think of a better word then stylist, though that is most certainly not the right word. But, the main feature would be that they chose a manifestation of their ego, must protect it, and as it grows so does their power. Current idea list for options is poise, fashion, and superiority.




> This applies against supernatural abilities. If no clear way of determining the effective caster level for such abilities exists, use the class levels or hit-dice of the class or race that grants that ability.
> 
> It does not apply to spells, abilities, etc. by your allies or you.


I see no major problem with this. I question the application to supernatural abilities, since it should already apply to them anyway, but fine.



> It applies only to spells that grant their caster meaningful information (including all divinations), or materially affect the object or creature in question. See end of following paragraph for one example of a case where this spell resistance does not apply.


Not sure what you mean here, that is unbelievably vague. If you want to simplify it I suggest, stating It applies only to spells that harm or target the charges you guard in question. That may help out a bit.



> It applies even to spells that do not normally allow spell resistance, but in such cases ONLY affects the part of the spell that is within that radius. For instance a _Wall of Stone_ would appear with the part that would lay within the area of this mythos excised out of it, and _Twinned Acid Orb_ could have one one of its orbs vanish without effect upon upon striking an ally within the radius of this effect (assuming the caster failed the SR roll), while the other, which might or might not enter this radius, but whose target is outside it would strike its target without impediment. Both orbs would wink out upon entering the radius except that they are not materially affecting the air in any meaningful way, unlike the aforementioned _Wall of Stone_ which replaces said air more than just by flying through it leaving turbulence in its wake. This also means that a _Fireball_ could damage a particular ally regardless of what else made its saving throw (except for a barrier that would block the _Fireball_ if it had been destroyed). In other words, no, the air doesnt provide total cover just because the air made its spell-resistance roll to not be fractionally heated as the flames passed through it.
> 
> Note that if a spell has an area defined spatially, but effectively targets your enemies, then this mythos does nothing to stop that. For one example of this see _http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilitySphere.htm]Invisibility Sphere[/URL]_.


That big paragraph, has so much unclear about it. I start with some idea, but then quickly lose it at about the halfway point. What are you trying to say here?

My first suggestion, don't apply it to things that don't have to break SR. There's a reason why some don't apply to SR, and honestly, most of the worst spells you protect from do need to break SR. 

2nd, I suggest treating the aura of 'magic no hurt', more like an antimagic field. Use it's rules to base your idea off of and go from there. The way you describe it is just... unclear to me.

As for it being a fantastic mythos, I think it's fine so long as it's not just an AM field. With the ability to break it I think it's fine as fantastic. The SR is high, but not atrociously high. (The standard for high SR is about 11+HD, any higher and it's almost unbreakable.)

----------


## DracoDei

> I would say the class in more general sense could be the illusion of self-confidence becoming reality. It's a mythos class that would gain power from the superficial, and depend entirely upon it's own self confidence. I could call them a mythic fashionista, but that's not really appropriate. A mythic liar could be a way to do it (and turn the 'coolness' of the character into lying to themself), but then I'd be making a different class (and it may overlap too much with the mythic bard as that class stands). I can't think of a better word then stylist, though that is most certainly not the right word. But, the main feature would be that they chose a manifestation of their ego, must protect it, and as it grows so does their power. Current idea list for options is poise, fashion, and superiority.


It is probably just how tired I am, but that doesn't make much sense to me. I have a start on it, but it doesn't add up to a meaningful whole. Maybe I'll have another look at it at some later point.

Perhaps some specific examples would help?



> I see no major problem with this. I question the application to supernatural abilities, since it should already apply to them anyway, but fine.


From the SRD:
Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.



> Not sure what you mean here, that is unbelievably vague. If you want to simplify it I suggest, stating It applies only to spells that harm or target the charges you guard in question. That may help out a bit.


Nope... "harm" is much to narrow a definition. See below about what the core of the idea is.



> That big paragraph, has so much unclear about it. I start with some idea, but then quickly lose it at about the halfway point. What are you trying to say here?
> 
> My first suggestion, don't apply it to things that don't have to break SR. There's a reason why some don't apply to SR, and honestly, most of the worst spells you protect from do need to break SR.


The core concept here was actually to have it to apply to battlefield control stuff like _Wall of Stone_, _Web_, _Wall of Iron_, etc. Especially the walls since that could cut the Phileotheysia off from one or more of his allies which... is a very bad thing for that ally since most of the Phileotheysia's buffs have a 1 round duration.

To put it another way, the fact that it actually gives your allies SR is a comparatively minor point. The major point is that it prevents the enemy from messing with the environment.

Also, Orbs are generally considered to be ridiculous, so that was part of my thinking with having it be so all-encompassing.

Lastly, asking me what I mean by something, rather than a more specific question, is usually an exercise in frustration. If I knew how to say something more clearly, I would have already done so.

I like to provide examples when things get murky, which is why that paragraph was so example-heavy.



> 2nd, I suggest treating the aura of 'magic no hurt', more like an antimagic field. Use it's rules to base your idea off of and go from there. The way you describe it is just... unclear to me.


Yeah, that might be a better way to describe it... I guess? _Antimagic Field_ did, indeed cross my mind when I was writing the mythos, but I also liked the idea of freely being able to target through it, which I'm not sure if _AMF_ does... it is too late at night, and I have an important doctor's appointment in the morning, so I'm not going to check.

The key image here probably is that of a _Wall of Iron_ appearing missing a massive chunk in the middle IF the caster fails to overcome the SR.



> As for it being a fantastic mythos, I think it's fine so long as it's not just an AM field. With the ability to break it I think it's fine as fantastic. The SR is high, but not atrociously high. (The standard for high SR is about 11+HD, any higher and it's almost unbreakable.)


Well, the SR automatically upgrades to level 15+level when you get your first Exalted Mythos, due to the way the pre-requisite mythos works, but I could perhaps be talked into changing that.

----------


## Jakman217

> It is probably just how tired I am, but that doesn't make much sense to me. I have a start on it, but it doesn't add up to a meaningful whole. Maybe I'll have another look at it at some later point.
> 
> Perhaps some specific examples would help?


Alright. 

Example/Idea 1: Character looks at a barrage of arrows coming at him. Takes a pose and smiles at their attempts to hit him. Proceeds to roll a charisma check to convince himself he's untouchable(higher level ability may trivialize or negate the need of this roll), and then continues laughing as suddenly his AC increases dramatically.

Example/Idea 2: The character is confronted by an assailant. The character proceeds to proclaim that the assailant is inferior, and explains why, then (after a charisma check) pimp slaps them into unconsciousness.

Example/Idea 3: The character walking through a party wearing their best (and prized) dress proceeds to spill something on her dress. Lacking the ability to protect it or spin it (insert check) in her favor she attempts to clean it. After attempting to clean it, and realizing she can't, they proceed to run from the room screaming and foaming at the mouth until this crime against fashion is rectified.

Example/Idea 4: Someone attempts to defame the Cool Dood that is the character. The character proceeds (with a check) simply adjust to the action in the most impressive way and his fame multiplies.

Example/Idea 5: The character's hair is flawless and worthy of being called art. Someone attempting to dethrone him attempts to cut it off. The Character laughs and proclaims his hair is so beautiful, reality itself will keep it from being cut, and so the character's hair suddenly becomes like adamant, breaking the razor of the attacker.

Example/Idea 6: The character gets into an arm wrestling contest with an anthropomorphic african elephant who took levels in war hulk for all the strength. Rolls a charisma check to convince himself he's stronger, but fails, and now lays broken on the ground, his self-esteem and grandeur broken in his mind. He must fix this by beating the elephant man and prove he is superior. And, he will stop at nothing to do so.

To sum it up. It takes the Glorious/Humbled mechanic from the Dinyomi, makes it a bit more flexible in terms of difficulty to upkeep. Then focuses the abilities on giving superficial things more power than the real things. It emphasizes the character believing he's superior without making him power hungry. To harden it even more, the classes abilities should be (in some form or another) be focused on meeting or allowing you to meet the rule of cool.




> From the SRD:
> Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.


Well, the more you know.



> The core concept here was actually to have it to apply to battlefield control stuff like _Wall of Stone_, _Web_, _Wall of Iron_, etc. Especially the walls since that could cut the Phileotheysia off from one or more of his allies which... is a very bad thing for that ally since most of the Phileotheysia's buffs have a 1 round duration.
> 
> To put it another way, the fact that it actually gives your allies SR is a comparatively minor point. The major point is that it prevents the enemy from messing with the environment.
> 
> Also, Orbs are generally considered to be ridiculous, so that was part of my thinking with having it be so all-encompassing.
> 
> Lastly, asking me what I mean by something, rather than a more specific question, is usually an exercise in frustration. If I knew how to say something more clearly, I would have already done so.
> 
> I like to provide examples when things get murky, which is why that paragraph was so example-heavy.
> ...


Ok, that makes much more sense. AMF does stop (suppress) all spells and magic that enters it's range. Wall's of X automatically don't appear in them, and if the field moves onto them it causes them to dissappear. It does not stop the spell from moving through the field and hitting something on the other side as it expressly suppresses and not stops spells that are already in effect.

Part of me want's to suggest to tone it down from 15+level SR, but then again, a fair number of people with mythos characters aren't going to be dealing with that many spell casters. I'd suggest staying closer to 11+level SR, but I'm not going to yell at you for putting it so high.

----------


## roko10

Well, honestly, that looks like the other half of the Empyrean made manifest, which is pretty damn cool. "I think I'm awesome, therefore I am" are amongst my favorite character archetypes. It's quite doable from a Mythos-making perspective, too.

In other news, I'm trying to create a Mythos class who doesn't have one specific "famous" Titan to draw their Mythos from, but rather having to do with the "obscure" Titans who aren't even relevant enough to get Anthols of their own. Mechanicswise, they're the "skillmonkiest" of the Mythic classes, pushing the boundaries of otherwise mundane skills to the maximum.

Is this idea allowed in the Mythos lore? I mean, there's the fact that sometimes, Anthols somehow get some measure of power from other Titans, but is it even possible for a bunch of no-name Titans to "work together" and create some sort of Mythos grab bag? Are there even "irrelevant" Titans in the lore?

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## VoodooPaladin

> Is this idea allowed in the Mythos lore? I mean, there's the fact that sometimes, Anthols somehow get some measure of power from other Titans, but is it even possible for a bunch of no-name Titans to "work together" and create some sort of Mythos grab bag? Are there even "irrelevant" Titans in the lore?


It's a little strange, but I think there is precedent. The Conqueror is made of several lesser Mythic entities, bound together by envy towards their greater cousins and contempt towards all that they have created. Egregore is a composite being stitched together from various Mythos that did not survive to become incorporated into the new world: his sons are Roger Rabbit, his daughters are Lola Bunny, and his adopted grandbabies are an army of soul-eating leather penguins.

So I think the idea would be that, technically, you can't be a bunch of "Weak Mythos", but you can totally be one "Strong Mythos" that is literally nothing but a number of "Weak Mythos" bolted onto each other like some kind of crossbred mongrelfolk/owlbear chimera. "The Coalition's Mythos" maybe?

Still, if you can make some kind of concept-thieving Myth-hussy a valid class concept, you're welcome to it.

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## nikkoli

> BRAZEN OBELUS TEGUMENT
> Prerequisite: -
> 
> Your flesh takes on the metallic appearance of burnished brass, and your features become slightly harder and more statuesque. For some characters, this also alters their skin and eye color to something more inhuman (especially a brilliant, glowing green), but it is not always the case. You no longer bleed, though deep wounds reveal veins of verdigris where your blood might've been, and you have Damage Reduction X/Lawful where X is equal to your class level.
> 
> At 4th level, you also have Fire Resistance equal to your class level.
> 
> At 9th level, the Damage Reduction granted by this Mythos becomes X/Lawful and Magic.


So since you no longer have blood, would you not need to breathe? It makes since since you lack a means to transport oxygen, that you wouldn't need it. (posting here since jaganatha thread is too old)

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## Lanth Sor

> So since you no longer have blood, would you not need to breathe? It makes since since you lack a means to transport oxygen, that you wouldn't need it. (posting here since jaganatha thread is too old)


Based on the fact that the ability doesn't say anything about negating the function of your now metal blood, and Xefas in rather good at not including things in vague wording if he means it he would have said you no longer need to breathe. I would say it bears no effect on breathing.

Also if anyone is interested I'd like to continue the PBP. Currently it seems only one guy is really wanting to continue it.

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## UrsusArctos

*GODKILLING IDOL FRAME* requires *BRAZEN OBELUS TEGUMENT* as a prerequisite. At level four, you can choose to grow a helmet with your armor. By doing this, you lose your need to breathe and eat. If Tegument removed the need to breathe, this would be redundant.

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## ThreadNecro5

> Example/Idea 1: Character looks at a barrage of arrows coming at him. Takes a pose and smiles at their attempts to hit him. Proceeds to roll a charisma check to convince himself he's untouchable(higher level ability may trivialize or negate the need of this roll), and then continues laughing as suddenly his AC increases dramatically.
> 
> Example/Idea 2: The character is confronted by an assailant. The character proceeds to proclaim that the assailant is inferior, and explains why, then (after a charisma check) pimp slaps them into unconsciousness.
> 
> Example/Idea 3: The character walking through a party wearing their best (and prized) dress proceeds to spill something on her dress. Lacking the ability to protect it or spin it (insert check) in her favor she attempts to clean it. After attempting to clean it, and realizing she can't, they proceed to run from the room screaming and foaming at the mouth until this crime against fashion is rectified.
> 
> Example/Idea 4: Someone attempts to defame the Cool Dood that is the character. The character proceeds (with a check) simply adjust to the action in the most impressive way and his fame multiplies.
> 
> Example/Idea 5: The character's hair is flawless and worthy of being called art. Someone attempting to dethrone him attempts to cut it off. The Character laughs and proclaims his hair is so beautiful, reality itself will keep it from being cut, and so the character's hair suddenly becomes like adamant, breaking the razor of the attacker.
> ...


This sound like a cool idea. As an idea how about something that allows the character to temporarily erase others from existence due to the logic 'I'm so impressive none would oppose me!'



Also the mythos I posted last time have been adjusted:
*The Price of Loyalty*
*Spoiler*
Show

The Chrimatia takes no penalty on preforming a rushed Diplomacy check if they pay 10GP per creature they wish to not take the penalty on during the action (this appears in the possession of the being that diplomacy is being used on). Additionally by paying an amount of GP equal to the creatures total HDx50 you may improve the creatures attitude by one step after the result of the Diplomacy check is determined, this may not raise a creatures attitude to you to Fanatic.

_Basic Manifestations:
Actually Decent Fellows_
You may preform a rushed Diplomacy check on a number of creatures within 100ft at a time equal to your Charisma Modifier as a Full-Round Action. For the check their attention is temporarily drawn to you so that they hear you out.

_Under New Employ_
Your diplomacy checks may raise a creatures Attitude to you to Fanatic, as detailed under the rules for Epic Level Characters. All creatures who are Fanatic to you are considered your property.


This now prevents you from buying your way up to fanatic.

*The Toss of a Coin*
*Spoiler*
Show

Prerequisites: -

The saying of throwing money at a problem is an odd one, and while the Wyrm more often won its battles though a more metaphorical display of wealth the Chrimatia is quite capable of doing both at the same time.
You may make a ranged touch attack to throw a handful of money (as well as likely other assorted gems, ingots, and assorted valuables that get increasingly mixed in as the value of thrown items increases) as a standard action. You choose any single dice to roll up to a D100 (a D100 is treated as one dice in this case), the creature takes an amount of damage equal to the result of the dice roll and you lose an equal amount of GP.

If you cannot pay the full amount equal to the dice roll, you instead take the same amount of damage, that cannot be healed in any way until you pay an amount of GP equal to the amount you could not pay +50%. Thanks to the higher grade of the thrown valuables (e.g. As the value of the thrown handful increases the concentration of more valuable coins and gems raises) if the dice rolled is a D8 or larger dice this damage bypasses DR X/Silver. If the dice is a D20 or larger the damage also bypasses DR X/Adamantine.


This now has fluff (something I intended to add to the mythos when I revise them before posting the class) and I have caped the dice to a D100 maximum.

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## roko10

Hey, so I'm working again on   the Kalthorros over here, and I would like to have some people PEACHing it.

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## Bluydee

> Hey, so I'm working again on   the Kalthorros over here, and I would like to have some people PEACHing it.


Flesh-And-Bones Enchanting Will has a typo, unless it really is meant to say "You can use your *Wisdom modifier in place of your Constitution modifier when calculating Will saves*. You do not automatically fail Fortitude saves on a roll of natural 1.". Also, personally, I'd feel like someone running off of determination and grit would be based off Charisma or Constitution, not Wisdom. Most of the people on your banner aren't particularly wise and the posterboy for the class in my opinion is definitely Simon or Kamina, and neither of them were as notably wise as their force of personality.

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## roko10

^D'oh. That was meant to be Fortitude saves. Thanks for that.

I wasn't exactly sure about Wisdom myself, but I feel that there's a bit of Charisma oversaturation in Mythos right now and not enough Wisdom representation. 

Maybe just allow then to use their highest stat modifier to calculate Grit?

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## Jakman217

> I wasn't exactly sure about Wisdom myself, but I feel that there's a bit of Charisma oversaturation in Mythos right now and not enough Wisdom representation. 
> 
> Maybe just allow then to use their highest stat modifier to calculate Grit?


I kind of agree that there is a bit of oversaturation with CHA, but I agree with the last guy that wisdom is a poor choice. I personally think either Constitution or Strength, over wisdom. Being able to chose any I think is ripe for both abuse and misrepresentation as most of them I don't see as Dextrous, Intelligent, or Wise. They really are either unstoppable strength, unending endurance, or so wielding the charisma of a god. Charisma could be dropped without too much harm to the base idea, partially because they are determinators, and also because between the the dinyomi and the megalieti the charismatic determined leader is kind of covered.

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## PeacefulOak

Or, if none of the primary statistics fully fit the bill (which I feel may be the case), why not look at secondary statistics?  Is there a statistic that represents overall determination, force of presence, and the ability to overcome what is thrown at them?  Why yes, there is!  It's the Will Saving Throw (And possibly Fortitude)!

Why not use some portion of the character's Will and/or Fortitude Saving throw modifiers to determine their Grit?

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## Jakman217

> Or, if none of the primary statistics fully fit the bill (which I feel may be the case), why not look at secondary statistics?  Is there a statistic that represents overall determination, force of presence, and the ability to overcome what is thrown at them?  Why yes, there is!  It's the Will Saving Throw (And possibly Fortitude)!
> 
> Why not use some portion of the character's Will and/or Fortitude Saving throw modifiers to determine their Grit?


... You know when you point it out, it sounds genius to me. I agree with this guy. I suggest fortitude personally, though will could easily be used as well.  I would suggest choosing one, but you could choose both, or consolidate them together into a determination save that covers both.

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## Gideon Falcon

So, forgive me for being a bit negative, but the Mythos system has always confused me- I've tried looking at the classes, but I can never make heads or tails of how the abilities would actually work, and it always seems as if the classes are only half-finished. I think part of it may be the formatting, which makes it difficult to distinguish sections from each other, but other than that I really can't understand what's causing so much confusion. Seeing how popular the system is, it makes me suspect that it's more something about me than the system itself, but I still just can't figure out what's really going on.
     Perhaps if you could figure out some way of stream-lining or simplifying the process, possibly by dividing each Mythos ability (which all seem to be very large, complicated structures) into smaller abilities that are easier to keep track of, it might be more appealing to folks like me, assuming I'm not just crazy.

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## Jakman217

> So, forgive me for being a bit negative, but the Mythos system has always confused me- I've tried looking at the classes, but I can never make heads or tails of how the abilities would actually work, and it always seems as if the classes are only half-finished. I think part of it may be the formatting, which makes it difficult to distinguish sections from each other, but other than that I really can't understand what's causing so much confusion. Seeing how popular the system is, it makes me suspect that it's more something about me than the system itself, but I still just can't figure out what's really going on.
>      Perhaps if you could figure out some way of stream-lining or simplifying the process, possibly by dividing each Mythos ability (which all seem to be very large, complicated structures) into smaller abilities that are easier to keep track of, it might be more appealing to folks like me, assuming I'm not just crazy.


1st, you may be a bit crazy but then all of us are.
2nd. It may seem disorganized because a number of the classes are incomplete. It also may be because it's not a linear progression like other classes but a suite of options and features you chose as you level. As for making it better. Outside of some outliers and slightly inconsistent style between the classes there really isn't much better of a way to organize it. 

Most abilities aren't linear, most of the ones with prerequisites are after what they require. All of them are organized by tier in the first few posts. I've done some reorganizing of this material on a wiki(http://mythos-compendium.wikia.com/w...mpendium_Wikia) but that's incomplete, and slow in coming since the support for it is currently just myself. Other than that I suggest going one piece at a time from the top.

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## Zenna

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...yer&p=20337956
Hey guys, ive tweaked my class a bit. Your right it did feel a bit too much like mythic dragon disciple so i trimmed down the split between dragon and hero and made it easier to switch between them
the basic concept ive got for this is a knight marked by fate slayed a dragon at the cost of himself and their souls mixed
Could I get some thoughts

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## PeacefulOak

> So, forgive me for being a bit negative, but the Mythos system has always confused me- I've tried looking at the classes, but I can never make heads or tails of how the abilities would actually work, and it always seems as if the classes are only half-finished. I think part of it may be the formatting, which makes it difficult to distinguish sections from each other, but other than that I really can't understand what's causing so much confusion. Seeing how popular the system is, it makes me suspect that it's more something about me than the system itself, but I still just can't figure out what's really going on.
>      Perhaps if you could figure out some way of stream-lining or simplifying the process, possibly by dividing each Mythos ability (which all seem to be very large, complicated structures) into smaller abilities that are easier to keep track of, it might be more appealing to folks like me, assuming I'm not just crazy.


I think some part of the confusion comes from the design process of Mythos, or at least the design process as I have experienced it, both personally and in reading these threads here.  With a standard D&D class, you have a concept, and a structured path that the concept follows.  Your Paladin is a holy warrior, who becomes more holy and warriorish as he progresses.  He makes decisions when it comes to feats, or to spell selection, or maybe alternative class features, but in the end, he's a Paladin.

A Mythos Class is a story, told a thousand times, with variations that occur as a result of that repetition.  It is the essence of a hero or a villain, and how that essence develops into the end result is something that builds organically as the character levels up.  This creates some of that sensation of chaos that you perceive, as many of the Mythos at each level of progression are telling parts of the story that may be completely contradicting!

If I were to make one criticism of the Mythos system as a whole, it is the built-in concept of buying additional mythos.  What I have seen is that this leads to two potential problems, one on the design side, one on the play side.  The design side problem is that, assuming that people can buy additional mythos makes it somewhat less important to ensure that each mythos have an equivalent but different impact on the way the character is played.  The possibility of "less useful mythos" comes in, and becomes acceptable.  On the play side, power creep is definitely a thing.  Playing a Mythos character that has had to choose it's mythos to either build towards an end result, or to achieve a broad balance of abilities, is very different from playing a Mythos character that has access to literally every mythos and excellency available to it.  At that point, what you are playing is less an extension of the story of the Titan and more a creature that is almost an embodiment of the full story of the Titan itself.

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## VoodooPaladin

> On the play side, power creep is definitely a thing.


For what it's worth, I've felt for years that innovated Mythos are extremely undercosted. Get All-Consuming Rampage Release for 1000 gp and 250 xp? That's a whirling barbarian's rage for the cost of a +1 sword, before the manifestation that gives you Powerful Build. Psychotic Sapience-Brutalizing Devolution gives a character with 8 Int a +3 bonus to Will saves at the same cost, and Vomit Forth Apocalyptica comes compliments of the chef. What do items give that Mythos don't outstrip, gp-for-gp?

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## Lanth Sor

Something Xefas brought up before and i agree has alot of merit is a new non XP non Gold system to quantify mythos power. Using mythos points as something you cant gain through the means listed but instead something more ephemeral the DM must define.Then they can provide bonuses to any no mythic characters based on a similar basis say maybe the "hero" soul

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## roko10

So, instead of trying to salvage the unfocused trainwreck that is the Kalthy, I made the Mythic Mad Scientist  instead. Please PEACH.

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## Fizban

> I've tried looking at the classes, but I can never make heads or tails of how the abilities would actually work


Try thinking of it like a Warlock: you have four grades of main abilities (Mythos instead of Invocations). There's also Excellencies on the side, which are drawn from a different pool and are usually not as level-based, like a list of bonus feats or rogue special abilities. Remember that all Mythos classes have full BAB: regardless of special abilities, their first skill is hitting stuff. Edit:  as apparently everyone is quick to point out, some have been made with lower BAB.

But where invocations are usually just "spell X at-will," Mythos can give you all sorts of stuff ranging from feats and flat bonuses to special abilities or entire new mechanical subsystems, and can include sub-choices. You take a Mythos, you get whatever it says you get, often an entirely unique class feature. When you see *Basic* or *Advanced* that means you get more stuff than just the initial whatever. For Basic you choose one thing and get it right now, for Advanced you pick now but don't get it until next level, and if it has both Basic and Advanced then you get both (Basic now and Advanced next level).

Most mythos classes give you one Mythos at every other level. So on an odd level up you'll pick a Mythos, and one Basic option if it has any. On an even level up you'll pick the Advanced option for whatever Mythos you took last level, if it has any. When you get access to higher grades of Mythos you'll see that they often come in families, where you need the lower level version before you can take the higher. Finally, you can use Mythos Points to learn more Mythos, learn extra Basic and Advanced options from those that you already know, or learn more Excellencies, but how you gain those Mythos Points depends highly on your class and Mythos (there's no base method, you need to find one available to you and take it).

With the usual progression you end up with 4 Exceptional, 3 Fantastic, 3 Legendary, and 2 Exalted Mythos, and one Excellency at almost every level (totaling 14 at the end)

I'd recommend reading one of Xefas's classes first, but not the Teramach or Kathodos since they've got lots of fiddly stuff going on. I found the Olethrofex much easier to get into, some of it's abilities are long but there's no worrying about meshing rage mechanics or figuring out what all those elements mean.

PeacefulOak isn't wrong about the system of buying Mythos complicating things. It's easy to build a character with just what you get from your normal level-ups, not many more choices than a Warlock or martial adept in fact, but you'll find that many Mythos pretty much assume you will be buying more than one of their Basic/Advanced abilities, and while there are usually a lot of cool upgrade paths and potential combos you just won't have room for everything unless you buy. At lower levels 1-9 you're pretty limited, but once you can reliably do whatever you need to do for Mythos Points and have enough WBL (you usually have to burn cash), a high level Mythos character will have basically all the Exceptional/Fantastic tier abilities they want, and probably a few extra Legendary tier options as well. Of course if a Warlock could buy Invocations you can bet they'd do it too.

----------


## Lanth Sor

> So, instead of trying to salvage the unfocused trainwreck that is the Kalthy, I made the Mythic Mad Scientist  instead. Please PEACH.


Speaking of which sorry mines taking so long I have been a little bit of every where and redesigning the mechanics behind the system seemed to be required before I could continue.

----------


## Temotei

> Remember that all Mythos classes have full BAB: regardless of special abilities, their first skill is hitting stuff.


Not all of them--some of the ones by people other than Xefas aren't full BAB to signify that hitting isn't a first resort for those classes or because it's just not necessary.

----------


## Allnightmask

I can't be bothered to dig through all the threads but I remember Xefas saying not all mythos class are full BAB it's just what he has written so far requires it for their roles.
Anakitos is the idea of the unstoppable protagonist, the Bellator is Fighter+, Jagannatha is the hate engine, Olethrofex is the angel of death or the alpha zombie, Syntrofos is born of the first thing to cause death via violence and continues that tradition, and the Teramach is pretty much all melee all the time. It is only my mental block with monks that makes the Kothodos having full attack bonuses seem weird. 
Write what seems right but don't think all mythos classes need full BAB and all good saves, it's not a requirement.

----------


## DracoDei

Seconded. My work in progress (which I may be getting a chance to playtest on these forums soonish!) has POOR BAB although some of their options improve that under very specific circumstances (AoOs, Disarm/Sunder, isolated from the rest of the party.

----------


## Fizban

The point still stands for all of them that do: if you're lost in a pile of mythos that don't seem to do anything on their own, check the BAB because it's probably supposed to be hitting things.

----------


## Zarthrax

Had a vague idea for a Mythos Prestige Class, playing off of the Mythic Vestige. Figured I'd consult the sages before I try to narrow it down.

Ideal Entry Point- Mythos Class 4/Binder 1 with Improved Binding, possess Mythic Vestige feat.

Progression- halves acquisition rate of Mythos and Excellencies, maintains progression for intensity of Mythos (so you can still get higher level ones, just not nearly as many), progresses Spirit Binding as a Binder.

First Vestige Bound every day must be 'yourself'. If 'you' possess Special Requirements for binding, you must meet them. Ignore Special Requirements does nothing here.

Ideal Capstone- You and DM create a second Vestige of yourself of higher level, you may bind either the original or the higher level one for free daily. Frees up your (probable) two slots for Binding shenanigans.


Thoughts?

----------


## khadgar567

> Had a vague idea for a Mythos Prestige Class, playing off of the Mythic Vestige. Figured I'd consult the sages before I try to narrow it down.
> 
> Ideal Entry Point- Mythos Class 4/Binder 1 with Improved Binding, possess Mythic Vestige feat.
> 
> Progression- halves acquisition rate of Mythos and Excellencies, maintains progression for intensity of Mythos (so you can still get higher level ones, just not nearly as many), progresses Spirit Binding as a Binder.
> 
> First Vestige Bound every day must be 'yourself'. If 'you' possess Special Requirements for binding, you must meet them. Ignore Special Requirements does nothing here.
> 
> Ideal Capstone- You and DM create a second Vestige of yourself of higher level, you may bind either the original or the higher level one for free daily. Frees up your (probable) two slots for Binding shenanigans.
> ...


you gotta need solid vestige making mythoses and watch out for warlock dip with custom vestige shenanigans( basicly op version of naberious so more hell fire warlock damage

----------


## Zarthrax

> you gotta need solid vestige making mythoses and watch out for warlock dip with custom vestige shenanigans( basicly op version of naberious so more hell fire warlock damage


.........

I'm certain this says something, I'm just not sure what.

----------


## Temotei

> .........
> 
> I'm certain this says something, I'm just not sure what.


Basically, make sure the vestiges that can be made are good, but not silly OP, I think is the gist.

----------


## Zarthrax

> Basically, make sure the vestiges that can be made are good, but not silly OP, I think is the gist.


Ah, much clearer.

I think what I would do is provide a couple of examples of such. Like the character I'm making the class for is basically Aym, so making an upgraded version of her should be easy. As mentioned though, the ultimate arbiter of said created vestige is whatever DM you submit it to.

----------


## Lanth Sor

> New Feat: The Sleeping Mountain Legacy
> *Prerequisite:* One Mythos; Humanoid, Giant, or Monstrous Humanoid type; Must have at least one of the following traits be a permanent aspect of you: Large or larger size, have the Powerful Build racial ability, or have giant blood within you.
> *Benefit:* Choose one Mythos-granting class that you have levels in. You may treat the following Mythos as if they belonged to that class. Your maximum hit points increase by 1 for every [Epic] feat, and every feat that references a "Grapple" or the act of "Grappling" in its benefits (excluding this one), that you possess. Note that unless you are actually of an Epic level (21 or higher), there will be almost no way that you can gain more [Epic] feats except from the following Mythos.
> 
> If you somehow lose this feat, or no longer qualify for it, you cease to gain the benefits of the granted Mythos until you regain this feat or qualify for it once more.


So do you not qualify if you get powerful build form a non race source?

----------


## nikkoli

> Originally Posted by Adam1949
> 
> New Feat: The Sleeping Mountain Legacy
> Prerequisite: One Mythos; Humanoid, Giant, or Monstrous Humanoid type; Must have at least one of the following traits be a permanent aspect of you: Large or larger size, have the Powerful Build _racial ability_, or have giant blood within you.
> Benefit: Choose one Mythos-granting class that you have levels in. You may treat the following Mythos as if they belonged to that class. Your maximum hit points increase by 1 for every [Epic] feat, and every feat that references a "Grapple" or the act of "Grappling" in its benefits (excluding this one), that you possess. Note that unless you are actually of an Epic level (21 or higher), there will be almost no way that you can gain more [Epic] feats except from the following Mythos.
> 
> If you somehow lose this feat, or no longer qualify for it, you cease to gain the benefits of the granted Mythos until you regain this feat or qualify for it once more.
> 
> 
> So do you not qualify if you get powerful build form a _non race source_?


It specifies Powerful build racial ability, not from another source. Granted in stock racial is the only way to get it, and both the races that get (goliath and half giant) have 2 of the prerequisites for the feat covered.  But in the wild world of homebrew there are a number of ways to get it outside of race.

----------


## Temotei

There's Jotunbrud from _Races of Faerun_. That would probably qualify you for "have giant blood within you" as well. It doesn't technically give you all of powerful build's benefits, but still. Some of them.

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## Lanth Sor

I'm working on an idea for the mage where you use essentia to gain access to spells in a way similar to investing in the incarnum feats works. You would invest essentia equal to the spells level to gain access. The mythos would be similar to the bellator discipline mythos in It would grant access to spell subtype each time taken(cold, healing, compulsion). And you couldn't pick a spell if you don't have all the subtypes. The biggest concern is I'd like to make them at will eventually but I'm struggling with the lower end.

----------


## Kaje

It looks like someone was in the process of transferring all of this to a Mythos Compendium Wiki, but the project seems to have died. If that is a thing people people are interested in, I'd be willing to start it up again.

----------


## Jakman217

> It looks like someone was in the process of transferring all of this to a Mythos Compendium Wiki, but the project seems to have died. If that is a thing people people are interested in, I'd be willing to start it up again.


That would've been I but you may take up the banner. I stopped due to a lack of support from the rest of the creators, distractions coming up, and little interest from people willing to help. You can go ahead and start updating if you want.

----------


## nikkoli

Can you further enhance weapon formed from *Element-Forged Geomach Arsenal*, such as adding weapon properties to it?  This question is posed by the omphalion belletor player in my game.  He is looking for getting the weapon enchanted by someone else, since he didn't take the belletor crafting mythos, and I'm not letting them use starting gold to have ALL OF THE MYTHOS at lvl 13.

----------


## Vauron

The best option is to let your player make use of whatever means that the Bellator has to get enchantments on their weapons. Lets see.... Huh, the Bellator only has a mythos for templates. Well, as a start you should probably let them make EFGA weapons with templates.

As to enchantments, while I never posted it, as I was never really happy with how it turned out, but I did make a Kathados mythos for adding weapon enchantments unarmed strikes, natural weapons, and stuff made by Element-Forged Geomach Arsenal. I'll post what I have and offer a few suggestions on adapting it to the Bellator.

Fantastic Mythos:
Apeiron Tellus Largess
*Spoiler*
Show

Apeiron Tellus Largess
Prerequisite: Elemental-Fisted Pugilist Style or Element-Forged Geomach Arsenal
The Kathados gains a pool of bonus points that can be used to grant special abilities from the list below to their natural weapons, unarmed attacks, and weapons created through a Kathados mythos. The size of your pool is equal to 1/5 your BAB. The Kathados can change which special abilities are granted by this mythos with a full round action. Weapons created by a Kathados mythos can have the abilities from the mythos applied as part of the action of creating the weapon. Weapon abilities from this mythos can only be put on weapons that are appropriate for the ability. You couldn't have a Keen Warhammer, for instance. 
+1
*Spoiler*
Show

Acidic Burst
Chargebreaker
Charging
Corrosive
Defending
Distance
Flaming
Frost
Ghost Touch
Impact
Keen
Maiming
Merciful
Mighty Cleaving
Precise
Seeking
Shock
Thundering
Wounding

+2
*Spoiler*
Show

Banishing
Collision
Disruption
Flaming Burst
Force
Icy Burst
Impedance
Parrying
Shocking Burst

+3
Speed
+4
Brilliant Energy



First, as far as converting it to the Bellator is concerned, you may wish to alter the list of abilities it can grant. I mostly gave the Kathados abilities that were elemental or shape based and did not have uses/day, which you may not feel fits with an Omphalion that can only make weapons from one element. Additionally, if they picked up a Favored Enemy somehow, Bane (that Favored Enemy) may be appropriate. 

Second, I have a bad nose for balance. If you think this overpowered than consider only giving a handle of abilities initially and requiring your player to get others through the same means he'd need to use to get a template.

----------


## Theseventh

So if I might offer up this Fantastic tier Mythos for The Archikos for consideration. 


*Spoiler: Words that Warp the World*
Show



*Words that Warp the World*
Prerequisite: In the Ring I Dance, In the Ring You Fall: Henge of the Ancients
[Pristine]

Everyone knows the words of the Fey hold power. Power over the minds of men, and power over the wit's of women. Few people consider however the power they hold over the wonders of the world.

When standing within your ring that is currently benefiting from the Henge of the Ancients augmentations you may utilize the True Speak skill with an amount of pseudo ranks equal to your HD-3, and may substitute Cha for Int for the purpose of the skill. Your effective Truenamer level is equal to your Mythos level.

Note: While Truenaming would indeed benefit from the abilities of Henge of the Ancients, I don't believe any incantations, or TS 'spells' in general gain or lose anything based on Truenamer level, aside from how high you can augment it. It's biggest cap is your actually ability to raise the DC and make the check so that is based on your skill points. 

Basic
_The First Words_: You learn a single first level Incantation. This manifestation can be taken 3 times.


Advanced
_The Second Words_: You learn a single second level Incantation. This manifestation can be taken 3 times.





What do people think? If this is well recieved I will make a continuation of the branch for the higher tier Mythos.
Future plans include _Recitations that Rewrite Reality_ and _Vocals that Violate the Vital_. For recitations and Utterances respectively. I like alliterations.

----------


## Lanth Sor

> So if I might offer up this Fantastic tier Mythos for The Archikos for consideration. 
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: Words that Warp the World*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> *Words that Warp the World*
> ...


I'll review it but seems solid. I initially thought you found someone that had made UA incantations in a viable format.

Also I'm Making a thing. It suposes to be Mythic Magic.

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## roko10

It's probably good to mention that the Proidos is updating again.

----------


## Theseventh

> It's probably good to mention that the Proidos is updating again.


Cool what can we expect to see in the new update?



On an unrelated note, here is another fantastic tier Archikos Mythos. Once I get a third one down I will repost them in the actual Archikos thread for easier viewing. Or you can just swipe them up and put them right into the mythos list Lanth.

*Spoiler: Recitations that Rewrite Reality*
Show


*Recitations that Rewrite Reality*
Prerequisite: In the Ring I Dance, In the Ring You Fall: Henge of the Ancients
[Pristine]

What is in a name? Would a rose by any other name smell just as sweet? Not if that rose chose to rewrite it's name with the power it held.

When standing within your ring that is currently benefiting from the Henge of the Ancients augmentations you may utilize the True Speak skill with an amount of pseudo ranks equal to your HD-3, and may substitute Cha for Int for the purpose of the skill. Your effective Truenamer level is equal to your Mythos level.

Note: Truenaming counts as a 'language dependent effect' for the purpose of the bonus supplied by Henge of the Ancients. This increase in caster level translates to an increase in Truenamer level.

Basic
_My name is Anna_: You learn a single first level Recitation.This manifestation may be taken twice.

Advanced
_My name is Anna-Marie_: You learn a single second level Recitation. This manifestation may be taken twice.

_Stone Song_: Your Stone Henge continues to sing your song after you have stopped. Once you no longer spend a swift action every round speaking your recitation, it continues to echo off of your stones for 1 minute a level. You are treated as if still under the effects of the recitation during this time. If you choose to start a new recitation then the echo stops. 





So what do you think? The idea of the second advanced manifestation is to allow the Archikos a little mobility outside her circle. Setup a recitation and then free to wander for a bit. Remember though that you only actually have the truespeak skill inside the circle so if you want to start up a new recitation or renew the old one you have to come back to the circle. What do you think about the duration? Too long? Too short? I intend to bump it up with the next tier of these. So next level it will likely be 10 minutes a level, and eventually 1 hour a level.

Not sure what I want to do with these Truespeak mythos as an idea though. I can either tie all 3, and their later branches, together into a whole True Speak sub class thing inside the Archikos. Or I can make each of them mutually exclusive. So you got to focus on just recitations, vocalations or Utterances. If I do the former, I will make one of them the 'base' mythos. Likely this recitation mythos and have the others build off that. For the time being the above assumes each will be it's own thing, thus be tied to the Henge of the Ancients.

----------


## Theseventh

And because I was inspired, may as well put this out now.


*Spoiler: Vocals that Violate the Vital*
Show


Vocals that Violate the Vital
Prerequisite: In the Ring I Dance, In the Ring You Fall: Henge of the Ancients
[Pristine]

Never tell a Fey your name. With it they will weave treacherous magics over your mind and soul!

When standing within your ring that is currently benefiting from the Henge of the Ancients augmentations you may utilize the True Speak skill with an amount of pseudo ranks equal to your HD-3, and may substitute Cha for Int for the purpose of the skill. Your effective Truenamer level is equal to your Mythos level.

Your absolute limit is equal to (Cha mod x Archikos Level), and is calculated real time. So if you step in to the circle at level 5 with 20 Cha, you would have a limit of 25. If you then suffer 2 cha damage your limit is now 20. If instead of damage you instead had a buff cast on you raising your score to 24 your new limit would be 35. Targets that were under your limit at the time of casting but are no longer due to a change in cha score do not have the effect removed until it would normally end.

Note: Truenaming counts as a 'language dependent effect' for the purpose of the bonus supplied by Henge of the Ancients. This increase in caster level translates to an increase in Truenamer level.

Basic
_It's not what you said, it's how you said it._ You learn a single first level Utterance. This manifestation may be taken 3 times.

Advanced
_Sticks and Stones_ You learn a single second level Utterance. This manifestation may be taken 3 times.

_No name? No Problem!_: When using an Utterance on a target within the area of your Circle, you may add your Cha score to your absolute limit.






There we go, the last of the Fantastic Tier True Speak stuff. I changed up how Absolute Limit is calculated a bit compared to a full on True Namer. Less static and prone to jumping around, but by being initially weaker it has the option of going up when buffed. Also included an advanced manifestation that ups your AL when a target is foolish enough to step into your circle. Remember though, a willing target can always be effected by an utterance if they want to be. Even when above your Absolute Limit! I suppose I probably should bother to do the busy work to include something in there for people who already have some Truenaming class levels and thus an AL. But frankly if you are dipping this deep into a mythos class for this, or this late in a Truespeak class because suddenly you found your calling I think you might need to reconsider your character.

----------


## Kaje

Even though nobody was receptive back when I suggested it, I still keep coming back to the idea of a Mythic Commoner, with representatives like Waldo, Jimmy Olsen, Doctor Who companions and every Martin Freeman character.

----------


## PeacefulOak

What I hear you saying is that you have an idea that is awesome in your mind.  My advice to you is to start writing it down. Figure out it's mechanics and how it would function or feel.  Then post it, with all of your energy and excitement, and inspire us to the glory of your concept.

----------


## Kaje

Honestly, I have no feel for mechanics or how to expand it into an entire Mythos class, but I envision it having (ex.)invisibility, buffing (simply because its allies are just better than it), and probably some great destiny it was never aware of.

----------


## ThreadNecro5

> Honestly, I have no feel for mechanics or how to expand it into an entire Mythos class, but I envision it having (ex.)invisibility, buffing (simply because its allies are just better than it), and probably some great destiny it was never aware of.


As a couple ideas, just start writing and wait and see where things develop over time. Also you could try trawling over TVTropes just looking for potential banner character you can base some things off of, besides the established themes.

Consider making it pathetically weak, like a d4HD and commoner save progression and BAB, but with the ability to revive themselves on death X times per day, and have some mythos that exploit this (sort of like the character is not one individual, but is instead every nameless NPC in the campaign).

if you go for the 'respawns' idea consider things like allowing them to 'spend' unused spawns to improve their next incarnation, e.g. giving it a prior history giving the character appropriate skill bonuses, or getting to start with, low level class features of some class, get to take over a named NPC, and that sort of thing. 

Other Ideas:
Something that always guarantees at least a minimum success/ability to contribute on things e.g. always gain a small bonus on skills, always be able to hit with attacks on a natural 15+ and deal at least one point of damage, ignoring DR and the like (the commoner is always there assigning, but never the focus).

As for the mechanical side of the buffing perhaps you can take a -x penalty (equal to ranks of Mythos they can use?) to grant a similar bonus to your allies. this would also synergise with the above idea.

The invisibility idea reminded me of a minor character in a webnovel I recently read called Worm, who basically had an aura that those inside of couldn't consider his as a threat, and just treat him as a harmless bystander. Perhaps combine this with a 'face in the crowd' style teleport?

----------


## SirBellias

I'm playing the Jagganatha in a game on next week. I'll tell y'all how it goes!

----------


## spwack

> I'm playing the Jagganatha in a game on next week. I'll tell y'all how it goes!


Oh man, tell me everything, how did you manage this?

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## SirBellias

> Oh man, tell me everything, how did you manage this?


Well, we're playing a game with multiple parties (?), and one of them has a different overpowered homebrew and a psion with 42 intelligence. As the leader of Team Evil (tm) I saw fit to ask the GM if I could level the playing field. I do believe I am still failing in that regard. We're all level five. 

Also, do you think stacking the size increases from the Mythic Kobold and Jagganatha is viable? Because I really want to. 

The DM may not know what's hitting him, but I went over the basics with him and he's convinced it will be an interesting campaign.

----------


## VoodooPaladin

> do you think stacking the size increases from the Mythic Kobold and Jagganatha is viable?


At level five, wouldn't you still just be medium size? Or is this a long-term prospect?

----------


## SirBellias

> At level five, wouldn't you still just be medium size? Or is this a long-term prospect?


Yeah, just medium size. You have to have goals, though, besides Murdering the Gods and Toppling their Thrones. It may get in the way of the campaign as planned (escape the Underdark), but being fairly conspicuous is kind of the point of the class, if I remember correctly. So I'm going to try it and see what happens.

Edit: Also, I'm assuming that the reason there are stat bonuses called out in the MONUMENT TO A HEAVEN RAINING BLOOD and HOPE-BANISHING BRASS COLOSSUS Mythos is because you don't get the stat changes from a natural size change like the Mythic Kobold suggests you do. Is that a fair assumption? It seems a bit cheesy to assume otherwise.

----------


## Rogthnor

Has anyone done a mythic artificer? Since these are exalted inspired it seems like we'd need alchemicals

----------


## roko10

> Has anyone done a mythic artificer? Since these are exalted inspired it seems like we'd need alchemicals


I have one, but I'm struggling to make new Mythos for it.

----------


## PeacefulOak

I have started updating the eoteras, link in my signature. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

----------


## ThreadNecro5

So, the Chrimatia is dead, for now at least, I've ran out of ideas.

I'm starting work on the Típoparchi that I have mentioned a few times in the past. I'm stuck when it comes to banner characters for the concept of oblivion and nothingness.

Tipoparchi Titan lore:
*Spoiler*
Show

The Titans were living stories, each defined itself by a legend of their own writing before being stuck into the cosmic foundation of existence. The Young One was not like this. It didnt -couldnt- define itself. In a fit of desperation one day, desperate to be something, tore itself open to pull something out. It failed. It kept going, tearing deeper and deeper inside until it ran out of more to tear free and so continued to wrench apart its hollowness thirsting for something to live by. One time when it again failed to pull something out, it did not fail. It found nothing. It was Nothing. The Nothing would have been born this instant if it existed.

In the primordial chaos before law there was a space where nothing happened. This void was the full stop at the end of the legend, the all consuming singularity that was The end. that spread into one tale after another as more began and grew. In the end the final fate of the One Who Became Nothing was ever in question, was it consumed by the nothing within and undone?, or did it truly achieve its one dream of becoming and mark its legend on the universe?


*My current list is:*
Manus - Dark Souls (video game)

Psion Minmax - Goblins (webcomic)

Gluttony - Fullmetal Alchemist (animae)

----------


## Temotei

> I'm stuck when it comes to banner characters for the concept of oblivion and nothingness.


Sithis would be a good one, from The Elder Scrolls series (of video games). Here's a link to lore.

There's probably something in Yu-Gi-Oh!, right? I don't know the show past season 1 very well, and it's been a long time since I've seen any of it period, so I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

*EDIT:* Oh, and Xemnas, from Kingdom Hearts, has power over nothingness.

Googling it gives this page. If you scroll down to known users, you can look at all of those names and see if any fit.

----------


## vasharanpaladin

> There's probably something in Yu-Gi-Oh!, right? I don't know the show past season 1 very well, and it's been a long time since I've seen any of it period, so I can't think of anything off the top of my head.


Darkness ("Nightshroud" in the dub) is literally described as representing the "darkness of nihilism."  Despair, oblivion and nothingness here.

----------


## ThreadNecro5

Thank you to those who have offered suggestions. I have narrowed things down to the following for the banner:

*Spoiler*
Show

Manus - Dark Souls (video game)

Psion Minmax - Goblins (webcomic)

Nightshroud - Yu-Gi-Oh GX (Anime)

Sithis - The Elder Scrolls (video game series).

Xemnas, - Kingdom Hearts (video game series).

Chakravartin - Asuras Wrath (Video game)

Cream - JoJos Bizarre Adventure (Anime)

Baraggan Louisenbairn - Bleach (Anime)


In terms of how the base chassis of the class is developing Below I will post the two class features that diverge from the standard Mythos setup (they are still mid-development, with areas I'm currently working on denoted by a ?). Suggestions are welcome.

*Unto Nothing*
*Spoiler*
Show

The legend of the Nothing is one of slow endless grind to oblivion and the void beyond, and its story is not of happenings, or even endings, but off ever pervasive nothing. Thus each Mythos has an ability not unlike a Manifestation called a Degradation that is unique to to and is an expansion off its effects, but taking it comes at a cost, a limitation as the Tipoparchi looses some aspect of themselves to the legend. Taking a Mythos Degradation is a free action that may be taken at any time.

Additionally as the legend of Nothing suffices the Tipoparchi the land around them begins to degrade as they do, this is represented by some Mythos having the [Void] label. These Mythos have effects that are part of an aura granted by this class feature with a size equal to the Tipoparchis class level + the number of Degradations they have taken X10.

Additionally a Tipoparchi gain a Natural Armour bonus to AC equal to ?


*Cease to Be*
*Spoiler*
Show

At 1st level, a Tipoparchi is immune to the harm caused by contact with a Sphere of Annihilation, able to move through it as if it was not there, all items they carry also benefit form this immunity. Additionally they gain a +4 bonus on saving throws to resist Energy Drain and to remove Negitive Levels.

At 3rd level, they gain immunity to Energy Drain and Negative Levels. Additionally ?

At 5th level, they ?

----------


## vasharanpaladin

Chakravartin's mantra is Creation, aka the _opposite of nothing._

----------


## ThreadNecro5

> Chakravartin's mantra is Creation, aka the _opposite of nothing._


True, I was focussing mostly on the final battle with the whole 'will destroy the word and everyone on it' thing, a Chakravartin style build would have Broken [Mythic Patron] Amalgam or something. That and in the final battle Chakravartin and it's abilities use an aesthetic that I felt appropriate to the Típoparchi. He was also listed on the page Temotei linked to.

----------


## Lanth Sor

The Magos is officially available ill be updating with new mythos soon. Please help with balance.

----------


## TimeLegend

I don't know if anyone remembers but I've added some Mythos to the Steel Emporer Forge Master and improved the Immemorial Mythos of that class. I decided that it did need a little more power from what it originally had for such a high slot of mythos it was.

Link

----------


## NineOfSpades

Currently building up the Aedifex A location-centric mythos class for those who think that world-building should be more literal. Most of the barebones are there, though obviously still plenty of fleshing out to do. If you've got a few minutes to take a look, stop by and feel free to give some feedback.

----------


## Yasahiro

Have there been any plans or attempts made to port Mythos classes to 5e? I'm struggling with thinking of sub classes for them

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## Lanth Sor

Not 100% but from what I've seen, 5E seems like a bad fit for them specially the STR based maddness of the teramach, if you completely reworked some of the bonuses maybe but base not so much.

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## Jakman217

Considering that the two backbones of the mythos classes (IMO) are overpowered highly thematic abilities, and overpowered but by RAW valid builds, I'd say that 5e conversions are highly unlikely. 

20 bucks says that if you do it yourself no one will complain though.

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## Valerem

So, question. In the Bellator thread, I saw mention of 'Cross-Mythos Feats'... what are these, and where can they be found?

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## Xefas

So, around Christmas, the motherboard in my PC blew out. I dunno the extent of the damages beyond that, but my computer was pretty old anyhow, so I'm going to wait and save up until I can afford a new rig, and then we'll see if my harddrives survived. All my RPG stuff was on them - hundreds of systems, lots of homebrew, and campaign information going back 10+ years. Sucks! Can't get at them. My phone is my whole internet right now (and public library computers).

But I've still got creative juices. And I've got paper. And I've got pencils. So, I'm going to write. And then I can transfer anything of note back onto a computer once I have one. And I don't see any point in writing for, or rewriting, content that is currently in harddrive limbo. Doesn't feel good. Best to do something new and different.

How do we feel about Mythos as its own setting with its own ruleset?

Something made for not-D&D is always going to be less popular than something made for D&D, I accept that, but in terms of quality, I think there are advantages in the relinquishing of baggage both mechanical and setting. Thoughts?




> So, question. In the Bellator thread, I saw mention of 'Cross-Mythos Feats'... what are these, and where can they be found?


In a spoiler over here.

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## Zale

> How do we feel about Mythos as its own setting with its own ruleset?
> 
> Something made for not-D&D is always going to be less popular than something made for D&D, I accept that, but in terms of quality, I think there are advantages in the relinquishing of baggage both mechanical and setting. Thoughts?


I'm sorry to hear about your computer! It must be really crushing to lose all of that. I'd be utterly distraught. 

I honestly feel like moving onto something not shackled by the conventions of D&D would only be good for Mythos stuff. 

I mean, it works great now, but I can only imagine how much better off it would be if it weren't applying patches to an already patchwork TTRPG.

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## Valerem

> How do we feel about Mythos as its own setting with its own ruleset?
> 
> Something made for not-D&D is always going to be less popular than something made for D&D, I accept that, but in terms of quality, I think there are advantages in the relinquishing of baggage both mechanical and setting. Thoughts?


As someone who is trying to make their own D&D Revamp and Setting, so basically it's own system. WITHOUT having a lot of homebrew that has amazing fluff and crunch, and tons and tons of support from people... I say go for it!




> In a spoiler over here.


Damn.... thank you very much.

Let's a see what I can do with these...

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## VoodooPaladin

> Something made for not-D&D is always going to be less popular than something made for D&D, I accept that, but in terms of quality, I think there are advantages in the relinquishing of baggage both mechanical and setting.


If it could be done better outside of D&D, then it should be. I'd be happy to read anything you want to put out, even if it entails having to learn a new system.

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## Xefas

Alright, so I've done some thinking, and I'm getting an idea of some of the mechanical features I want to have in, working title: Mythopoeia.

I'll talk about one in particular, by first going into the problem I believe that it alleviates. In many non-D&D RPGs, there is a mechanical incentive to state who your character is, and then roleplay what you've stated. For example, in Burning Wheel, you don't have to take a trait that says your character is a drunkard. But if you do choose to take that trait, you get [Stuff] for actually playing a drunkard, especially when you play a drunkard even when it makes it harder for your character to achieve their goals. 

I think this is cool. It rewards a player for taking what they find interesting about their character and then unleashing it onto the story to hopefully make it more interesting, too. But, one thing that I have never seen addressed in any of the ridiculous amount of RPGs I've hoarded over the years, is a mechanic that does this for a character's traits that require other players to react to them in order to be fulfilled.

For example, say Player A is playing an old, wise, sagely sort of character. And Player B is playing a young, headstrong badass. Player A actually wants to be acknowledged as being sagely. He dispenses sagely advice to Player B, which probably involves Player B briefly acting not reckless and headstrong. Player B doesn't give a ****, because his character is faaar too young and headstrong to listen to that. On the flipside, Player B wants his edgy recklessness to inspire a reasonable amount of fear and concern in his party members. But Player A already feels left out because the kind of character he wants to play isn't being supported, so he says his character is far too old and grizzled to give a **** about Player B's recklessness. Now both players are frustrated, they may yet escalate until it becomes problematic for everyone at the table, and suddenly Avatar: The Last Airbender doesn't have Iroh and Zuko in it.

So, I want a mechanic where a player can say "I want X trait of my character to be occasionally acknowledged by the party." and that does not force - never, at all forces - but provides a small incentive for the other players to occasionally acknowledge that trait when it makes sense to them. After all, most of the time Zuko ignores his uncle's advice and does dumb **** anyway, and most of the time Iroh just rolls his eyes. But occasionally Zuko admits that his uncle was right all along because he is indeed very wise (even if no one is around), and Iroh does occasionally break down and show a great deal of unrestrained concern about his nephew's physical and emotional well-being.

I'm thinking of calling this Mythic Resonance. When two Mythic beings play into each others' stories as the Titans did, they gain power.

Some examples might be - When a character lets it be known, directly or indirectly, that they fear the Teramach's darkest self, or when they comfort the Teramach after they have done something horrifying while in a Rage, they achieve Mythic Resonance. When a character defers to the leadership of the Cynosure, or submits a gift to them for their favor, they achieve Mythic Resonance. When a character is struck with awe and wonder at the acts of the Anakitos, or loses to them in a contest of skill, they achieve Mythic Resonance. 

But you only get the Resonance bonus once every X period of time. So there's no incentive to constantly be bending over backwards for someone else if it doesn't make sense for you to do so. But, every once in a while, when the time is right, you can make the Hulk's player feel good by having your Tony Stark thank god that he's on your side.

Thoughts?

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## PeacefulOak

That sounds really interesting as a role playing reward mechanic. It encourages participation in the narrative of other characters, and also encourages a degree of character growth.

Are you thinking of staying D20 based in this system?

I had been thinking for a while that this subset of brew deserves to be a system. I'm excited that you are still invested in this.

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## Xefas

> Are you thinking of staying D20 based in this system?


Probably not. I want something with a curve, and likely smaller numbers. I've poked around anydice.com before, looking at different dice distributions, but at the end of the day it's probably going to be something with d6s. Everyone has d6s, and they're small, and they can make a curve.

Other thoughts I've had: 

- Classes, but no levels. But Mythos will still have 'Tiers', so the gaming group can decide if they want to play as merely badass adventurers, exalted-tier earthshakers, or if they want to murder the gods and topple their thrones. Or whatever. And they can decide when they want to 'level up' to the next tier. And, ideally, there can be some form of advancement near-indefinitely at each Tier, or at least for quite a long time. Advancement, without levels, will largely be the accumulation of more Mythos.

- Perhaps some hybrid of hit points and a kind of injury system. Hit points alone are so swingy in D&D that I don't think they provide the kind of tension that I want. With hit points, you operate at full strength until you suddenly die (or lose consciousness), and while I like Anthols having healing powers, because recovering from wounds that would cripple a mortal is awesome and thematic, I feel like recovering from hit point loss doesn't feel all that great because missing those hit points wasn't doing anything to you in the first place.

On the other hand, I don't want an injury system that's too, uh, realistic, I suppose. Getting run through with a sword isn't something an Anthol should want, but I don't want to encourage a death spiral, whereby an injury inflicts a persistent penalty such that whoever takes the first real hit is facing a certain loss because their numbers can't keep up. In an evenly matched duel, I'd ideally like some back-and-forth, rather than an early decisive blow.

So I gotta think about how to do that.

- Cosmology-wise, I'm envisioning a hollow metal sphere. Running as a horizontal disk across the middle is the mortal world. Suspended from the bottom of the flat world are a series of tremendous chains, each holding up a single country-sized prison personalized to contain the Titan within. The sun, moon, and stars are attached to the inside face of the sphere, and rotate on a vast firmament mechanism, which the mortals perceive as the sky. When the sun dips beneath the horizon, it is moving under the world, creating day for the Titan-prisons held there, while the moon brings night above, and vice versa. The sun, moon, and (some of the) stars are the slumbering places for the Lawgivers, who are no longer active in the world, for each their own reason. Of the Titan's prisons, the mad Empyrean's hangs lowest, such that he is scorched by the passing of the sun each day.

On the outside of the sphere, at the very top is the City of the Gods where the Gods and their servants reside. Their sky is a storm of chaos, run through with the crystalline structure of the Betwixt, which separates them from the Beyond. 

Seeing as how this is a setting where magic is not the answer to everything, movement between each realm is possible by physical, extraordinary means. A person can find (or dig) a stairwell leading from the Overworld down to its underside, and then climb down one of the chains to a Titan's prison. They can also climb one of the pillars that supports the firmament, then punch through the top of the firmament into the City of the Gods, or else sail to the end of the world and climb up the side. No one has ever done any of those things, and they're impossible, but there you go. The City of the Gods also has transport rails up to Betwixt (for reasons). And once you're there, the rules of reality have abraded to the point where you can jump into the sky and fall into the Beyond.

I would draw an MSpaint illustration for you all. But, y'know. Phone. Hopefully my explanation makes sense.

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## Jakman217

> Probably not. I want something with a curve, and likely smaller numbers. I've poked around anydice.com before, looking at different dice distributions, but at the end of the day it's probably going to be something with d6s. Everyone has d6s, and they're small, and they can make a curve.
> 
> *snip*


If you don't mind a bit of input I'd suggest taking a look at GURPS a bit, not for it's major systems, but mostly for it's rolling mechanics. I particularly think it's difficulty system is quite good, since it's a roll under and the difficulty levels are just + or - to your roll flat. 

I could also see using some inspiration from it for damage stuff, but I'd say there'd probably need to be a scaling factor to increase the probably too low health. It has the ability to break limbs and cripple body parts and could probably be used for some inspiration.

As for the rest of GURPS, I'd say that's up to you.

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## khadgar567

> If you don't mind a bit of input I'd suggest taking a look at GURPS a bit, not for it's major systems, but mostly for it's rolling mechanics. I particularly think it's difficulty system is quite good, since it's a roll under and the difficulty levels are just + or - to your roll flat. 
> 
> I could also see using some inspiration from it for damage stuff, but I'd say there'd probably need to be a scaling factor to increase the probably too low health. It has the ability to break limbs and cripple body parts and could probably be used for some inspiration.
> 
> As for the rest of GURPS, I'd say that's up to you.


he allready using exalted as main design chasis

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## Kymme

> How do we feel about Mythos as its own setting with its own ruleset?


Something made for not-D&D is always going to be less popular than something made for D&D, I accept that, but in terms of quality, I think there are advantages in the relinquishing of baggage both mechanical and setting. Thoughts?

I'll admit, there is a great deal of appeal in playing in a party balanced between Mythos and Full Casters and Psions and Artificers and having general high-op wackiness.  I love the idea of being in a world where the party Bellator can outfight anything that the full casters can summon and lives in a one-man-army league of his own in a world of trolls and goblins.  I love the idea of characters gaining powers that dovetails together disparate feats from dozens of sourcebooks in a graceful way that makes them effective and fun.  Games like that excite me in ways that other games don't.  Mythic games are my favorite types of games.  I've even tried to run a few, much to my undoing.  I'd love to see Mythos continue in the way that it is now.

However, none of the fascinating mechanics or screw-spellcasters atmosphere is what really got me invested in this system.  I think the first thing that attracted me to this entire 'project' (I guess you could call it that) was the bright light at the heart of it all - its creator.  You're a brilliant writer, Xefas, and anything that lets me read more of your work is something altogether wonderful and awesome.  You can do whatever the heck you want and I'll follow like a starving sycophant so long as I can read it.

*tl;dr?*  You do you, man.

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## PeacefulOak

> he allready using exalted as main design chasis


From my understanding, he used Exalted as inspiration for the classes as they came into being. The idea now is to take the mythos classes as designed for 3.5 D&D, and port them over into a new unique system that meets the story elements of the anthol concept while maintaining a mechanism for resolving challenges and conflict.

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## khadgar567

> From my understanding, he used Exalted as inspiration for the classes as they came into being. The idea now is to take the mythos classes as designed for 3.5 D&D, and port them over into a new unique system that meets the story elements of the anthol concept while maintaining a mechanism for resolving challenges and conflict.


my option dont port it but its xefas's brain child so he can do what ever the f he wants.

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## Valerem

Will admit, it would be a shame if we never get all the other classes from Xefas in 3.5. The Cynosure (Even if I have to wonder why all these's villains have Kamia in their line up). Ophidian (Mythos Rogue I'm guessing). Epistemian (World warping!). Epicurean (Mythos Bard). Secretary (The Name alone is hilarous). Katalixi (become the Repear). Katametritis (Art and Battle!). Agapon (Heart is an Awesome Power!). Athrastos (Like the Bellator, I guess?). Drakontas (MOTHER****ING MYTHOS DRAGON). Amyitos (Cartoons Bitch!) and the Michanikos (Mythos Engineer)

That's 12' classes that are said to be in the line. The seven we do have is great, fantastic even. But not even 50% of the entire list... so whilst I do love the idea of Xefas going forth and making his own system, breaking away from D&D to make his own game and lore. I am going to be sad if we never actually get to see any of these other classes in 3.5 form. Plus, from what Xefas has said, I'm not sure if I'll be willing to play the game. Admittedly, I liked Shadow Run, so the d6 system doesn't sound like a bad idea. But the idea of classes without level's is just... odd for me.

I do love the idea of Mythic Resonance through, the reminder that D&D has the issue that if you decide to play a Dunkard, you don't get any mechanical incentive for it, so the crunch classes with the fluff of the character is an important one I'm going to have to think on and acknowledge in my own remake...

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## Kaje

God I want the ophidian so much. Any class that can claim Carmen Sandiego and David Xanatos as reps has got to be amazing.

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## Zale

Hmm.

I love reading new systems. I like the crunchy feeling of clicking mechanics together. 

So I will read and enjoy anything that gets made, especially, though, for this. 

One of the things I love most in games, even non-tabletop games, is the interplay of story and mechanics. I like it when the mechanics uphold the story and genre in a graceful, elegant way; when the stated story is actually possible with the mechanics-

This is one of the things that D&D 3.5 consistently fails at. It presents classes and options with the understanding that they're powerful or equal, or talks a big game about them, but then they're completely underwhelming. 

But, Xefas, you do a really good job of making evocative and thematic mechanics that resonate well with the stories they're trying to tell. Doing that with something as non-narrativist as 3.5 is an incredible feat. 

It's something I've always enjoyed about your work here. 

There's also the fact that your writing is fantastic and evocative ontop of the mechanics. 


But, yes, onto mechanical things: 

As far as traits that help enforce story roles go, have you looked into fate? The way aspects work sounds similar to that, in that you can be compelled to follow story traits in return for mechanical incentive. 

Oh, and about health systems:

My personal favorite health system is from Chuubo's Marvelous Wish Granting Engine. In it, your health system is basically about how much control over your character's narrative you have. 

It handles a lot of situations in the same way mechanical. Things like having a love spell cast on you, or someone persuading you to give them all your money, or someone dropping a mountain on you, or someone ripping your soul out and condemning it to hell. 

Those are all things that health system can handle interchangeable. It's pretty amusing. 

The only system where you can respond to someone decapitating you by sneering, "Nyeh-Nyeh, now I'm a ghost- good luck axe-murdering me again JERK."

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## Valerem

Ya know... I am so going to being stealing so many ideas during this discussion. I mean, I made my point clear. As much as I do want to support Xefras in this regard, and I really do believe that the Mythos system will benefit from taking a step away from 3.5 D&D, Ill be sad that I wont be able to see Mythos come to completion in 3,5 D&D, I mean. Expecting Xefras to work on Mythos both as an original concept, AND for 3.5 D&D is waaaaay too much of a stretch. However, actually having people talking about the issues in 3.5, and talking how they might be able to overcome them, is definitely going to benefit me greatly.

Like, the issue of health. Where one moment your fine, and the next moment you cant do anything? Thats a well known Trope: Critical Existence Failure, and one that is relevant in a LOT of games. Of course, just because its relevant and happens often in a game, doesnt mean it has to be accepted... complacency is bad. Innovation is good. But of course... this is in place, to help ensure there isnt an Unstable Equilibrium, creating a downward spiral where if you get an early penalty, it soon swings entirely out of control. Which is exactly what you want to avoid Xefras, so it is a problem for sure. Its an issue that I want to address, but I have almost no idea how to do so myself. So having a look at the suggestions here, and what you end up coming up with yourself Xefras, will really help me out.

Still, I hope there is a suggestion I can make that might get your interest. It was brought to my attention, that the reason why conditions are so powerful (and why everyone gets so many immunities at higher levels), is because conditions like Paralysis, or Petrified are Binary. Yet they are almost as effective as Death is. But in order to kill someone, you have to reduce their health - which is Gradual. If you throw enough conditions at someone, eventually they will beat their binary defence of the saves, and give you a victory. 

So, the best way to counter this, is make it so conditions are gradual as well. Ive made it so Status effects can be downgraded to a less severe condition, at the cost of taking a stronger toll on your body. Health points represents your bodys ability to withstand blows and throw of poison and disease. Fortitude points represents your physical and mental stamina. Whenever this is reflected in dodging a fireball, throwing off a compulsion effect, or being attacked in a non-lethal manner, Fortitude reflects that all. 

... Not sure I explained that very well honestly, but I hope you understand where Im coming from in this regard. Of course, being that you ARE intending to make an entirely new system... you could just rework conditions entirely so you dont need a two health-bar system...

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## Xefas

I'm reading all posts and taking them into consideration - just wanted to state that for the record. Normally, I would respond individually to them, but typing out long posts is already tedious with a phone, without adding multiple quotes and such. Suffice it to say, I appreciate all input and support.

In regards to mentioned systems - I'm passingly familiar with GURPS and Chuubo's (which doesn't mean much, as they both seem quite dense in their own way). I started playing Fate with the Dresden Files RPG, and kickstarted Fate Core. If all Fate based games were counted together, it's one of my most played systems, potentially surpassed only by D&D due to the ridiculous marathon sessions I had in middle/high school and college.

Anyway, the mechanic I'm contemplating today is space and movement. Mythopoeia will have to accommodate a wide range of forms and powers in a single party, but also across a character's development, so it may be trickier than it seems. Unavoidably, space will have to be represented more abstractly than a rigid scale grid - to see why, only imagine a party with a (roughly) human sized Teramach that can punt people miles at a time, a Kathodos in the form of a sapient hurricane, and a Jagannatha that has become a walking castle populated with a literal legion of demonic soldiers. Moving in little squares just isn't feasible.

I have some ideas, of course. But I'm open to suggestions.

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## Lanth Sor

I did do a stamina system which was like a fatigue rework the party was rather concerned it would be cumbersome but it turned out really smooth.

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## VoodooPaladin

> space will have to be represented more abstractly than a rigid scale grid - to see why, only imagine a party with a (roughly) human sized Teramach that can punt people miles at a time, a Kathodos in the form of a sapient hurricane, and a Jagannatha that has become a walking castle populated with a literal legion of demonic soldiers


Honestly, it's kind of hard to imagine how combat works at that level of complexity and variation. Trying to keep things straightforward and simple is a challenge at this point - it sounds like Mythopeoia's concept of movement is more of a relative question of 'can you actually affect this thing with your power' than it is a matter of sensible, round-by-round accounting of location.

Maybe some kind of Engage roll, which is complicated by any effect that would make you hard for chump farmers with pitchforks to stab to death? Hitting Godzilla doesn't work unless you're flying, or climbing up his limbs, or piloting a giant robot, or so on. Trying to stab a hurricane requires you have some power that would enable you to break its control over its wind patterns, whether that be magic weapons that cleave souls, opening gas pockets by splitting mile-wide canyons in vacant earth, or just being so big that punching it moves a few million foot-tons of force directly into its everything.

...that might not help much, but its kind of the best I've got right now.

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## manwithaplan

> Anyway, the mechanic I'm contemplating today is space and movement. Mythopoeia will have to accommodate a wide range of forms and powers in a single party, but also across a character's development, so it may be trickier than it seems. Unavoidably, space will have to be represented more abstractly than a rigid scale grid - to see why, only imagine a party with a (roughly) human sized Teramach that can punt people miles at a time, a Kathodos in the form of a sapient hurricane, and a Jagannatha that has become a walking castle populated with a literal legion of demonic soldiers. Moving in little squares just isn't feasible.
> 
> I have some ideas, of course. But I'm open to suggestions.


You ever played Mutants and Masterminds? It's certainly built at least somewhat for human-sized individuals that can punt people four miles, sapient hurricanes, and...populated walking castles? I suppose.

It works in Distance. Facing doesn't matter, grids don't matter, everything is Distance. And the Distance Ranks double at each row. So your ordinary guy moves Distance Rank 0, or 30 Feet, with his Move Action. But if you put a point into your Speed, now you move 60. Another point and it goes up to 120 Feet, or Distance Rank 2. Then you have superheroes with Strength 10, and when they throw you, they throw you to Distance Rank 10 - 4 Miles. And if you get thrown, but you're the Teleporter, you might be able to travel Distance Rank 15 - 120 miles. So you pop back.

And for every fight between Speedsters punching each other while they run across the planet, people who move at normal speed can still get into a room together, take Move Actions to get close to each other, and have a bit of a tactical element to it. Like most of Mutants & Masterminds, while it lacks a strong feel for anything specific, it's versatile and can cover everything.

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## Xefas

The last few days, I've been doing some fluff writing. Right now, however, I'm looking at Skills. Here, I'm using Skills as a very general term for "The numbers that determine if you succeed/fail." [edit: I'm not going to be using a binary succeed/fail system, just to clarify.] So, in D&D, I would count all the skills in the skill system, but also stuff like attack bonus, fortitude, reflex, will, armor class, and ability scores. The fact that these are handled so differently in D&D is something I want to avoid. Constitution and Fortitude both measure the same quality of the character so, ideally, we don't want the player to have to handle completely different bonuses, uses, modes of progression, derived statistics and so on. Dexterity might be the biggest offender - what exactly does a character with Dexterity 3, Reflex +20, no ranks in Dex skills, and the Run feat look like? He wanders out of a bar, slips and falls on a pile of vomit, then does a flying backflip from prone thirty feet through the air to dodge a lightning bolt from the sky, then a drunk comes at him with a bottle and he's powerless to get out of the way while he's beaten utterly senseless, then he drops into a 20mph dead sprint into the night. (To note, the Player's Handbook describes a Dexterity of 3 as being similar in agility to a fungus.)

But condensing Skills too far can have its own problems. Dungeon World, for example, uses only D&D's six ability scores for Skills. An average Dexterity score means you're average in all those things mentioned - tests of speed, reflexes, balance, acrobatics, and so on. The reason this occasionally irks me is that it means that my street urchin Rogue who's great at lying to fences and bribing guards (high Charisma) is also great at delivering political speeches and singing. Similarly, a Grizzled Old Janitor in FAE that raises their Quick score simultaneously becomes better at running, gunfighting, disarming bombs, dancing, driving boats, piloting mecha, noticing tripwires - and so on forever - provided that speed matters.

On the other hand, maybe I'm okay with highly applicable general competencies for Mythos characters, with focuses provided by their class. I consider Exalted, where my deicidal legionary can literally duel the God Of Spears, using a spear, and win - but if he tries to throw that spear, he can't hit the broad side of a barn, and if he tries to throw a punch, he's liable to embarrass himself - and I'm trying to think of situations where I would want a particular Mythos character to be embarrassingly bad at something (for those of you that have actually built/played one - how many times did you put skill points in Swim?), and the only times I can think of are a result of a class ability (like a Teramach being embarrassingly bad at doing calculus while raging).

But then I start thinking of problems; like a character becoming just a hat worn by their class, as there may not be enough to distinguish them mechanically otherwise. There's a reason that Powered By The Apocalypse games limit you to one of each class in a party; two Gunluggers (Apocalypse World) are going to end up being relatively interchangeable. One has a shotgun and one has an assault rifle, but they mostly work the same, and they both maxed Hard (the AW stat for smashing/shooting stuff) because all their class features work off of it, and they both once had one other party member leave them bleeding out in a gutter somewhere in their backstory (which is part of the class). 

Anyway, I could go back and forth forever. I'm open to any thoughts you all might have on the subject, and I hold none of my opinions as particularly sacred at the moment.

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## Valerem

You know, reading these posts, talking about the issues of various game designs is making me more and more aware of just how difficult making your own game actually IS... especially as there are so many issues that I honestly did not take into account. >.>

Maybe I should put a cap on Reflex Saves or something? But that could be an issue... Nrph... >.<

*Regardless*, I do think I can contribute. One of the issues I have with D&D and Pathfinder is that the skills are all grouped together, and dictated by intelligence... which, makes me go ??? Why can a nerdy, frail Wizard, be better at jumping, swimming and climbing than a big, strong fighter? (I guess its kinda linked to the very first problem you brought up yourself). Stuff like Diplomacy and Disable Device make sense to some degree, as their more about learning how to talk to people, or how to disable traps without setting them off. But the physical stuff? That makes zero sense.

So, Im gonna split them.

Mental skills like Diplomacy, Disable Device, and Sense Motive are going to in one section, and the Class+Int dictates how many points you get. Whilst Physical skills such as Tumble, Spot and Listen, are going to be in a different category, and they are dictated by Class+Str. After all, Str isnt just a measure of *Upper* body strength, even though that is what it reflects nine times out of ten. But the general strength of their body. If a monk kicks a dude, they're using lower body strength, but Str applies all the same as if they punched the dude.

This way, classes that traditionally have very low skill points, and reason to get intelligence (such as Paladin, Fighter and Barbarian). Can have skill points that let them BE the peak of physical performance that you see in the ability scores. Whilst classes that have low physical scores, but high intelligence like the Wizard, cant jump, tumble and swim as easily as the martial classes can.

Of course, this also comes with the issue of making sure those skills are more relevant in the game than they are now... and it also brings up a question Im not sure how to answer. Should the Knowledge Skills, such as... Knowledge, as well as maybe Disable Device and definitely Handle Animal, be their own section, or would that complicate things too much?

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## VoodooPaladin

> Right now, however, I'm looking at Skills.


So you've butt your head against the nigh-apocalyptic design barrier that is Action Resolution, eh? I'm impressed: most never ask such questions of the game they play, even while they're carving it up and frankensteining it back together in their own image. I hope my advice is helpful to you, but you'll have my support regardless.

I think Ability Scores work fine, if well-implemented. No one minds a character that's big and tough being able to climb _and_ take hits well. No one minds a character that's great with words being able to deliver a stirring speech _and_ entice an amicable stranger. Though I don't believe it can be perfect, ability scores do an excellent job rendering 'general competence', which is basically needed for an action resolution system to hold together in play.

Since Mythic characters each have a singular Mythical power source, then characters being defined significantly by their classes sounds helpful for reigning in design theories. (I'm thinking of Fire Emblem's classes, and how different stats and characterization actually do make them feel different.) In 4e, skills were simplified to suit the class-focused design: as part of your class, you became trained in 3~5 skills, which were each more general in their purview than 3e skills were. Being trained in a skill gave you a level-based bonus and that's about it.

Would that help in establishing a clear starting point? I assume the top-level functions would have to be described on a case-by-case basis, and the difficult part would be adjudicating how unrelated Mythos and such - possibly written many years and authors apart - would function when one's ruleset says Can't and the other Do Anyway. But that's a long way away, and probably can't be built in perfectly on principle.

_(this is pure theorycraft, but if each skill is more like 2~4 skills in 3.5 terms, what if being trained in a skill was what let you access the more impressive things you could do with them, as a rule? further, if training is such a simple toggle, adding and replacing skills trained could be a natural thing at later levels, which clears up a lot of build culture pains and groaning)_

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## Xefas

One possible skill configuration I'm looking at, which I'm beginning to like, is so:

The White Art of Leading Men to Glory 
--Used to run organizations and lead military units. You might roll to have your spy network acquire a particular piece of information, or to bolster morale before your mob of peasants crashes into the oncoming horde of zombies.
The Red Art of Dividing Flesh and Life
--Used for all kinds of combat stuff. Swinging a sword, shooting a bow, parrying a sword, catching an arrow, Captain America'ing ten fools with a shield. Whatever.
The Saffron Art of Self Perfection
--Measures physical health. Used for running, jumping, lifting buildings over your head, resisting poison, and so on. Adds to hit points and has some combat overlap with the Red Art, in that it can also be used to dodge attacks and while it isn't rolled to hit someone, it can be used to, say, strike the earth and send a shockwave that leaves someone hurdling through the air. 
The Golden Art of Making Known the Righteous Word
--The skill for making people feel things, and then using those feelings to get them to do stuff. Make someone angry, then get them to attack you in combat instead of your allies. Make someone scared, then get them to flee the area. Make someone grieve, and then get them to start a war. You can't actually make someone believe something, or change the way they think, but you can get them to act on their emotions instead of their reason.
The Green Art of Cultivating the Spirit Through Knowing The World
--A skill representing how well traveled a character is or, rather, if they have taken wisdom from their travels. It handles knowledge of foreign lands, wilderness survival skills, and it can be rolled upon going to a new place to establish that a character has been there before, and what kind of reputation they have. 
The Blue Art of Seeing Past the Veil
--The skill rolled to see past deceptions, whether lies or illusions, and to measure the intentions, motivations, and emotional states of other characters. This insight also allows a character to resist the Golden Art by seeing past the emotional facade of an argument to its true merit, and can be used to see to the heart of a riddle or logic puzzle.
The Indigo Art of Finding Lost and Hidden Things
--The skill rolled for the senses. Seeing an ambush before it hits you, eavesdropping on a conversation, smelling a poison in your drink, finding a hidden lever, discerning that one splatter of blood is incongruent with the pattern left by the rest and therefore it must belong to the murderer and not the victim and so the party Teramach just needs to bloodhound that one back to the source to solve the case. (I'm thinking of giving Teramachs either smell powers or blood powers. Or both.)
The Violet Art of Knowing
--The knowledge skill. Occult knowledge like spirits and undead and gods and such, but also mundane stuff like math, physics, and medicine. I'm thinking cultural knowledge and history will be rolled under the Green Art instead, but it might instead be an overlap.
The Black Art of False Faces and Ill Intent
--Rogue: The Skill. Lie, cheat, steal, pickpocket, skulk, safecrack, bluff, conceal objects, feint, disguise, hide your true character from the Blue Art, and so on. 


So, what's missing? What situations are there where no skill seems applicable? I've got hooks for physical conflict, a kind of social conflict, organization-level (political?) conflict, dungeon adventures, urban adventures, wilderness adventures... I think it's good. And I like the color theme.

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## VoodooPaladin

> One possible skill configuration I'm looking at, which I'm beginning to like, is so:


Quick question, before I begin? What would you figure the baseline for 'normal people' would be, in this system? In fluff or crunch terms, either way would help.

I like this so far - I actually kind of like that each figurative sector of character competence is composed of two or three skills which partially overlap, but are otherwise distinct. I haven't tested anything, but it looks good to build off of.

Side note: I just noticed is that Black is like 80% composed of messing with what other colors do - lies for Gold, disguise for Green, feint for Red, con game for Blue, and so on. That's so MTG it hurts - I love it!

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## Xefas

> Quick question, before I begin? What would you figure the baseline for 'normal people' would be, in this system? In fluff or crunch terms, either way would help.


I'm looking at a few different classifications of being. Mortals are the every day rank and file background mooks of Mythopoeia. They're just grain in the grinding wheels of the gods, and they're confined to 'realism'; no size of modifier or lucky roll will allow them to sprint across the surface of a lake or hide from a room full of guards inside someone's shadow. And instead of using Arts, I'd like to have some very simple numbers a GM can plug in for the brief roles a Mortal might play in the life of a PC. The town apothecary has a very narrow specialty; he has +X when identifying herbs and making poultices, but doesn't have the Violet Art of Knowing - he can't necessarily tell you how to build a catapult. And because he'll likely never fulfill a role beyond that, the GM doesn't really need to worry what his other numbers are, but they're probably +0 or quite low. 

Heroes are one Tier up and include Anthols and Sorcerers. They use the Arts, with Anthols also having Mythos and being able to go up further Tiers. Sorcerers get their own weird magic progression stuff without going up further Tiers like Anthols, Deities, Archons (Servants of the Gods), and Titans do. But most of the world's Heroes are neither Anthol nor Sorcerer, and they're stuck at this level, which lets lets them do Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon type wirefu acrobatics and Sherlock Holmes esque unreasonable logical leaps and such, with the Arts, which makes them potential rivals and allies of weaker Anthols, and worthy subordinates to powerful ones, but they'll never punch a mountain in half.

In a way, you could think of it as:

Mortal -> Fighter
Hero -> Warblade
Anthol -> Bellator 

I don't want to commit to any exact numbers yet, but ideally a newly minted combat-capable Anthol should be able to give a few dozen mortal soldiers a good fight, and at the upper end of standard Anthol character progression, they should be able to square off against well-trained mortal armies with competent Heroic leadership behind them.




> I like this so far - I actually kind of like that each figurative sector of character competence is composed of two or three skills which partially overlap, but are otherwise distinct. I haven't tested anything, but it looks good to build off of.
> 
> Side note: I just noticed is that Black is like 80% composed of messing with what other colors do - lies for Gold, disguise for Green, feint for Red, con game for Blue, and so on. That's so MTG it hurts - I love it!


Yeah, I think the colors worked out surprisingly well thematically. Hot colors are flashier and more proactive, cool colors are more subtle and reactive. Although I am concerned with the possibility that using the names of the Arts on a character sheet and in mechanical descriptions might not be as easy for the reader as if the Black Art was just 'Guile' or something more generic like that, and the Saffron Art was just 'Body' and so on.

I recall reading Legends of the Wulin long ago, and there being stuff about dice in your River and Lake, and dice Flowing down the River, and Flooding the River, and creating Ripples in other peoples Lakes and... stuff. After some perusing, I believe that I got it down, but I felt like it would be a nightmare trying to teach new players as opposed to just being able to say "Roll these dice to hit a guy."

But, on the other hand, I've been listening to a Dresden Files Actual Play podcast recently, and the generic names of the skills are constantly leading to them being misused by the group playing. For example, in the last episode I listened to, they used Investigate (which is basically D&D's Search skill) to find a safe house to hide a sensitive person in, because having a safe place to hide out sounded like something a private investigator would be able to do. Therefore, Investigate*. 

So maybe having fancier names might emphasize that the Arts are meant for specific things.

(*edit: I realize that this might just be a failing of this particular group. My own groups have never had such a problem with the Dresden Files or Fate in general, but I feel like it would be a mistake not to take into account the behavior of other groups when designing a system, as it needs to be able to go out into the world and be able to function without its creator.)

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## CowardlyPaladin

hey I feel like a noob but what exactly is Mythos?  All of the links in the opening post all seem to be referring to something else, what exactly is mythic games, is it a whole new mechanical system?

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## SirBellias

Hey y'all. From what I've seen of the system being made (or the ideas behind it, at least), it looks pretty great. Just saying.

As for the skills, I think you should leave the names as they are. They feel right when looking at the Mythos and what they are, and are giving off a serious Kill Six Billion Demons vibe, which is glorious. It shouldn't be too hard to explain a solid nine skills, and the color theme helps to make them easier to justify. Red for blood, gold for honeyed words, and so on. 

There doesn't seem to be anything missing from the skill list, either. Seems fairly rounded out to me.

Keep it up! I'm afraid I am not too savvy when it comes to game design, so I won't weigh in too often on mechanical stuff. But this concept is a great one, and I'll try to give my opinion when it matters.

There is a new mechanical system being made here, but it started out as a bunch of upper tier classes and fluff for D&D.

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## VoodooPaladin

> hey I feel like a noob but what exactly is Mythos?  All of the links in the opening post all seem to be referring to something else, what exactly is mythic games, is it a whole new mechanical system?


Mythos is a descriptor used to refer to one of two things: a series of homebrew D&D classes built around strong fluff presentation and high-op power levels, and the Exalted-inspired setting used to describe their more exotic aspects and implications.

It all began with the Teramach, which is accordingly a fine place to start in understanding what Mythos are. Most importantly, it's _really fun to read_ and I would recommend it to just about anyone.

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## CowardlyPaladin

> Mythos is a descriptor used to refer to one of two things: a series of homebrew D&D classes built around strong fluff presentation and high-op power levels, and the Exalted-inspired setting used to describe their more exotic aspects and implications.
> 
> It all began with the Teramach, which is accordingly a fine place to start in understanding what Mythos are. Most importantly, it's _really fun to read_ and I would recommend it to just about anyone.


So if I start there I can get a better understanding of the larger system and move on?  cause this seems really elaborate i'm kinda curious

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## Xefas

Doing some fluff writing again tonight. I'm thinking the fluff chapter will be first, with the first section containing information about the different classes of being that exist in Mythopoeia, then the topography of the universe and its five realms, then a history of how the world came to be. Somewhere, I want to include information about what "the average peasant on the street" knows about the world, which is full of ignorance, misconceptions, and divine propaganda. That's just something I've occasionally wanted when running games like Exalted or Planescape that have big cosmologies.

Anyway, this is my second draft for the fluff chapter's introduction, before going into the nature of gods and titans, and the Anthols that players will take control over to change the world. I want it to set a dark tone, point out to the prospective reader that the game involves a fantasy setting with swords and magic, and be intriguing enough to get someone to do the pdf equivalent of turning the page.

*Spoiler*
Show


Mythopoeia is the secret name of the world, a place of tragedy and injustice, where death is false and eternity is the selfish concoction of evil gods. Since time immemorial, humanity has labored in meaningless toil, scratching out an existence they know not the purpose of, sowing and reaping their food from harsh lands, living short, brutal lives plagued with disease and demonic creatures that surface from the places of the world without light to cause terror and suffering. And when a man's life is through, he suffers the falsehood of ending, and his soul is reborn to the world in another life to toil again.

Mythopoeia is a world of stagnancy, ignorance, and cowardice. Invention and progress died in their womb long ago, and no ideas advance past the sword and iron plow. Superstition rules from the backwaters to the cities, as avatars of distant, real deities descend to earth to bring capricious vagaries in place of enlightenment. Right and wrong vary with each mile from tribe to tribe and town to town, and the ensuing xenophobia and intolerance only drag the eyes of mankind further downward and away from their masters.

Mythopoeia has seen many heroes. Since the beginning, there have been a rare few humans with a touch of real power, for Hero is not a word for the good, but a title for the mighty, and each has in their time used that power to shape the world to their liking - but the world resists change, and in the march of ages, their kingdoms crumble and their names are forgotten. None in the heavens take notice of these petty kings, for they know that in time even a hero will pass and return again to the cycle, whatever fleeting pleasures they might steal from above their mortal station.

What is not known to any but the Gods themselves is that Mythopoeia is itself a vast mechanism, and all of its misery is by design. It is an engine of perfection that produces but does not consume. It recycles life, it introduces pain, and draws forth faithful pleas, and it is those prayers the Gods consume to sustain their minds. Each tragedy is a calculation, each moment of hope or happiness an ingredient on the scales to extract the optimal amount of belief over infinite lifetimes.

What is not known to any thing but one, and certainly not to the Gods, is that the mechanism is not as perfect as it seems. There is a flaw, of which half an eternity passed to reveal, and something small has now broken. The world produces heroes as it always has, but a long forgotten flame has poisoned them. The flame called chaos subverts their intended purpose, and now fragile Mythopoeia, which is held together with the clockwork strata of stagnant order, will change.

We play to find out how.

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## VoodooPaladin

> Although I am concerned with the possibility that using the names of the Arts on a character sheet and in mechanical descriptions might not be as easy for the reader as if the Black Art was just 'Guile' or something more generic like that, and the Saffron Art was just 'Body' and so on.


If mortals don't have access to the Arts, then giving them ordinary-sounding names is a recipe for cognitive dissonance. If you remember to say clearly what each Art actually allows you to do in practice - your descriptions of Red and Black are good examples of this, your descriptions of Green and Gold are less so - then I expect it will play out fine more often than not.




> dice in your River and Lake, and dice Flowing down the River, and Flooding the River, and creating Ripples in other peoples Lakes and...


That sounds like subsystem bloat. The use of Arts as a grouping of general skills based around a character trait isn't necessarily worse than the one we all put up with from D&D. A 9-stat system isn't really worse than a 6-stat one, especially if the extra up-front complexity keeps it from later installing a ton of hidden complexity and derived statistics. What matters is that the in-game use of the Arts to do "stuff" remains simple to explain and use.




> The town apothecary has a very narrow specialty; he has +X when identifying herbs and making poultices, but doesn't have the Violet Art of Knowing - he can't necessarily tell you how to build a catapult.


Ah, thank you. That sounds pretty straightforward in practice. After all, if the game is focused on impressive things, and mortals can't do those no matter how big their bonuses get, then they can get rather high bonuses for consistency purposes and it won't break anything. It even sounds like a respectable backup system for Arts; if invoking mortal competency was incompatible with Arts (and still limited by the glass ceiling, even in the hands of Anthols), then it could be used to allow characters to hold a presence in a scene without _absolutely needing_ to constantly contrive opportunities to use their focus stat(s).




> Mythopoeia is the secret name of the world


I like it. Dark, and concisely so. It's not a world of heroes - at least, not real ones. But it certainly is a world in need of some.

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## PeacefulOak

This has some of the feel of Spira and Cocoon/Grand Pulse. I like a lot of what you have down so far.

I'm curious, are you intending on having different tiers of play, with different rules and rule interactions, or is t likely to be all anthols and sorcerers?

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## Xefas

> I like it. Dark, and concisely so. It's not a world of heroes - at least, not real ones. But it certainly is a world in need of some.


Writing it actually gave me an idea for a little subsystem to represent the player characters as agents of change.

So, everywhere in the world has problems, but some are bigger than others. When the players come to a new city-state, for example, the GM might throw out that its big problems are Tyranny, Drought, and Rejection of Medicine. There's a dictator that rules with an iron fist, water is in short supply, and the average commoner thinks that bathing makes you sick and raw pork is the only cure. These three things are not altogether unrelated. 

(For contrast, the next city-state over might instead have a Lethargic Government, where the ruling council won't pass laws and regulations even when they're sorely needed, Marauding Bands of Ogres, which is self explanatory, and Crippling Xenophobia to the point where they won't even trade with other nearby city-states for things they really need.)

Whenever the PCs do something big in a given area, really throwing around their superhuman power, they either contribute to breaking down an existing problem, or creating a new one (or sometimes both?). If they roll into a town under the city-state's influence and take a bunch of supplies and kill the guards that try to stop them, they contribute to Mass Fear, or Lawlessness, or whatever the GM thinks is fair. If they, however, publicly decry the mandate of the tyrannical government and run the king's men out of town, and declare that the people are now under their protection, then they damage Tyranny. Once they damage Tyranny enough - for example, if they crusade through enough towns, the people will rise up, throw off their shackles, guillotine the dictator and install a new government, or if they go to the city proper and burn down the palace with everyone in it - the Tyranny problem goes away. Possibly replaced with a positive attribute instead ("Benevolent Republic" or whatever). 

Before Mythopoeia had broken, if a band of Heroes were to do these things, what would invariably happen would be that one of the Heroes takes the reins and becomes the new tyrant. Or they rule justly and fairly for a little while before being assassinated and replaced by a new tyrant. The situation would not actually progress at all, getting any better or any worse. 

But Anthols can actually ruin or fix things, as they see fit. And this system might scale up, such that if enough cities and kingdoms are changed, the nature of an entire region of the world could be damaged and then shift. This might be a good trigger for the forces of heaven to really start taking notice and responding. 

Then again, this might be something that doesn't need to be mechanized. It's just something I'm thinking about.




> I'm curious, are you intending on having different tiers of play, with different rules and rule interactions, or is t likely to be all anthols and sorcerers?


I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean rules for playing as mortals or generic Heroes? I wasn't planning on it.

Actually, I wasn't really planning on supporting PC Sorcerers. At least not initially. Just doing the dozens of types of Anthols is a big enough task for now. Sorcerers should make fun enemies and allies, though, with how I envision magic working.

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## PeacefulOak

> Writing it actually gave me an idea for a little subsystem to represent the player characters as agents of change.
> 
> So, everywhere in the world has problems, but some are bigger than others. When the players come to a new city-state, for example, the GM might throw out that its big problems are Tyranny, Drought, and Rejection of Medicine. There's a dictator that rules with an iron fist, water is in short supply, and the average commoner thinks that bathing makes you sick and raw pork is the only cure. These three things are not altogether unrelated. 
> 
> (For contrast, the next city-state over might instead have a Lethargic Government, where the ruling council won't pass laws and regulations even when they're sorely needed, Marauding Bands of Ogres, which is self explanatory, and Crippling Xenophobia to the point where they won't even trade with other nearby city-states for things they really need.)
> 
> Whenever the PCs do something big in a given area, really throwing around their superhuman power, they either contribute to breaking down an existing problem, or creating a new one (or sometimes both?). If they roll into a town under the city-state's influence and take a bunch of supplies and kill the guards that try to stop them, they contribute to Mass Fear, or Lawlessness, or whatever the GM thinks is fair. If they, however, publicly decry the mandate of the tyrannical government and run the king's men out of town, and declare that the people are now under their protection, then they damage Tyranny. Once they damage Tyranny enough - for example, if they crusade through enough towns, the people will rise up, throw off their shackles, guillotine the dictator and install a new government, or if they go to the city proper and burn down the palace with everyone in it - the Tyranny problem goes away. Possibly replaced with a positive attribute instead ("Benevolent Republic" or whatever). 
> 
> Before Mythopoeia had broken, if a band of Heroes were to do these things, what would invariably happen would be that one of the Heroes takes the reins and becomes the new tyrant. Or they rule justly and fairly for a little while before being assassinated and replaced by a new tyrant. The situation would not actually progress at all, getting any better or any worse. 
> ...


For the part responding to me, yeah that's what I was looking at.  I only asked because you mentioned the wire-fu Heroes like Warblades previously.

For the other part, a lot of what you are describing is part of what I think of as natural world-building which happens as part of a game, as the characters grow in power and influence.  Depending on how much detailed world-building and city-planning you will be doing, having a GM set of guidelines on how to create a living breathing city-state within Mythopoiea on the fly.

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## Xefas

I met with some friends over the weekend. They helped me push the mechanical side of things forward a bit. I've also borrowed an ancient, derelict laptop that nevertheless does access the internet. I can start writing in Google Docs, which will help, and I do have one PC game that it can actually run - Sim City 2000, so hell yeah in that department.

Today, I'm working on the glossary of proper nouns, potentially to be placed at the beginning of the fluff chapter. Link. Commenting is enabled if, for whatever reason, someone wants to comment.

One term that I'm waffling on is the replacement for the Lawgivers; I wanted something more general, whereas Lawgiver is more of a political term. The Titans wouldn't call them that. Right now, I have them listed as the Eight Divinities (subject to change in number), but I also like Celestial and Celestine, the former of which plays off their (soon to be strengthened) star motif, and the latter a cursory google search tells me hasn't ever been used to refer to powerful beings, but is instead a kind of rock and a method by which one garnishes a dish with finely shredded pancakes. But I still think it sounds cool... despite the pancake thing.

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## Fizban

> How do we feel about Mythos as its own setting with its own ruleset?
> 
> Something made for not-D&D is always going to be less popular than something made for D&D, I accept that, but in terms of quality, I think there are advantages in the relinquishing of baggage both mechanical and setting. Thoughts?


Indeed, a significant part of why I like Mythos stuff is that it has the gall to do what it does in DnD. There are plenty of other games that have more narrative mechanics, and plenty of ways you can try to graft narrative mechanics onto normal DnD classes. But Mythos classes do it the hard way by saying screw the rules and just doing it, stealing mechanics or making them up and generally flouting the normal design specs, and are usable alongside all the other 3.5 stuff I like. It's narratively designed classes through the lens of a mechanically focused game with lots of different stats for "realism," ignoring the rules or reality in a different way than magic (with its own rules) does.

A system designed from the ground up for Mythos stuff would lack the inherent screwing of the rules since the rules were written for it, and while I can appreciate other systems 3.5 is where I live. Of course if you don't want to write for it anymore then you don't want to and you might as well move on, it's not like any of the existing 3.5 Mythos stuff is going to disappear and I haven't even read it all yet. So yeah, go right ahead, I'll follow along when I see it about as I've been doing.


Regarding Investigate skills- that's because Investigate is a terrible choice for a skill name, because investigating requires a bunch of skills.

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## Lanth Sor

Due to design concerns form people around the design of Agios's primary shield mythos I'm thinking of reworking it away form the % chance DR and going to abusing standard shield feats. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

*Spoiler: Current Set Up*
Show


Ardent Aegis Bulwark
Prerequisite: -

Shields no longer grant a bonus to AC. You now gain a (20 + str mod + Shield bonus + Combat Expertise's AC bonus)% chance to block (class level+Str mod+Shield bonus) physical damage from incoming attack. While Fighting Defensively the chance is doubled. While performing Total Defense all incoming attacks are blocked. Using a tower shield increases the block chance by 10 and using a buckler decreases the block chance by 10.

Advanced
Insurmountable: Gain +1% block chance per enemy that threatens you.
Swift Redoubt Interception: Any charge in the agios's reach is treated as the agios for the purposes of Ardent Aegis Bulwark.
Righteous Thorns: When you block a melee attack the attacker takes 1d4+cha mod force damage. 
Renewal: When you block an attack gain fast healing equal to your cha mod, not greater than level, until the end of your next turn.

With another mythos that can double % chance. 

The concern is the tedium of checking and reducing each attack and the moment a bunch of people attack you or someone your protecting and you just say no.



*Spoiler: Potential Change*
Show


Ardent Aegis Bulwark
Prerequisite: -

Shield bonus to AC projects to all allies in the Agios' reach(min 5ft) and the agios gain Shield Focus and Shield Specialization. Additionally gain DR x/- 

Advanced
Insurmountable: Gain +1 Shield bonus to AC per 2 enemies that threatens you.
Righteous Thorns: When a melee attack misses someone benefiting from your shield by an amount equal to your Shield bonus,  the attacker takes 1d4+cha mod force damage. 
Renewal: When attack misses someone benefiting from your shield by an amount equal to your Shield bonus, attacks target gains fast healing equal to your cha mod, not greater than level, until the end of your next turn.

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## Xefas

For those interested in Mythopoeia's setting, I've written some info for the first five of the Ten Hells, where the Titans reside in present day. 

Just in case some high Tier player characters are crazy enough to try to rip a macguffin, or glean some lost lore, from the clutches of an ancient demiurge. Once stats are nailed down, there must also be stats for some of the Titanic souls contained therein (and environmental effects, like Setesh's fog). But, for now, I'm just looking for feedback on the fluff. Is it evocative and interesting? Does it conjure ideas for an adventure where the party has to go to a particular Hell to get or do X thing? Does it paint the Titans as dangerous, horrible things from before a stable reality, that nevertheless do not have the free will necessary to be blamed for being inhospitable towards the mortal world, and therefore it is still somewhat pitiable that they exist imprisoned, debased, and suffering for (ostensibly*) eternity?

*Pending player character malice or stupidity.

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## Zale

I've been crunching over the Lawgiver alternate name, because I can feel something on the periphery of my mind. 

It might be a thing from the Yoruba faith, in which the servants of Olodumare, the great high god, are called the Orisa, or the Divine Ministers. 

But that might not be appropriate. 

You could always call them Elohim, but that might be thematically dissonant. 

Anyway, someone asked me (in a general sense) to post this here.

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## Xefas

> I've been crunching over the Lawgiver alternate name, because I can feel something on the periphery of my mind. 
> 
> It might be a thing from the Yoruba faith, in which the servants of Olodumare, the great high god, are called the Orisa, or the Divine Ministers. 
> 
> But that might not be appropriate. 
> 
> You could always call them Elohim, but that might be thematically dissonant.


Orisa probably isn't appropriate, as the Lawgivers are the head honchos (or they would be, if they were still conscious), not really analogous to Ministers. I do like Elohim, although it seems like it might be something of a broken parallel, as if we're using an Abrahamic lens, the Empyrean is the YHWH of the tale, and the Sun is the Adversary. Just, in this case, the Morningstar won the war, and cast his father into Hell to be broken and twisted, rather than the opposite. 




> Anyway, someone asked me (in a general sense) to post this here.


That's cool. I'm actually really interested in where God_of_Awesome heard of my stuff if he doesn't have a Giantitp account. 

Also. C'mon, Zale. Why've you got a sweet Mottom avatar over there, but you're still using the generic Oots ranger avatar here?

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## Zale

> Orisa probably isn't appropriate, as the Lawgivers are the head honchos (or they would be, if they were still conscious), not really analogous to Ministers. I do like Elohim, although it seems like it might be something of a broken parallel, as if we're using an Abrahamic lens, the Empyrean is the YHWH of the tale, and the Sun is the Adversary. Just, in this case, the Morningstar won the war, and cast his father into Hell to be broken and twisted, rather than the opposite.


Yeah. I'd probably give them a medium length title myself, like The Great And Terrible Radiances or something. 

You could nab some terms from Zoroastrianism; call them the Amesha Spenta, or call them Ahura(s). 

But that might not have the same resonance. I'm biased as I think they're cool.  




> That's cool. I'm actually really interested in where God_of_Awesome heard of my stuff if he doesn't have a Giantitp account. 
> 
> Also. C'mon, Zale. Why've you got a sweet Mottom avatar over there, but you're still using the generic Oots ranger avatar here?


Well, I feel a small amount of visual dissonance when I use a non-stick figure avatar on this forum due to most people using them. 

I may change it though. It's worth consideration.

----------


## Inevitability

> Well, I feel a small amount of visual dissonance when I use a non-stick figure avatar on this forum due to most people using them. 
> 
> I may change it though. It's worth consideration.


Nothing wrong with non-stick figure avatars!  :Small Tongue: 

Seriously though, nice to see more KSBD fans on here. The Incubus reveal was pretty nice, don't you agree?

----------


## Zale

> Nothing wrong with non-stick figure avatars! 
> 
> Seriously though, nice to see more KSBD fans on here. The Incubus reveal was pretty nice, don't you agree?


Yes. I've got three shekels on "dream vampire". 

I would love it if the whole decadent pretty boy manipulator thing is just a hobby; his true talent is impossibly destructive sword-skills.

----------


## TraceChaos

So I'm planning on building a half-dragon kobold Bellator ; looking through a few things, it seems that natural weapons count as weapons for most purposes. 

Still, I feel the need to ask just to clarify ; do Natural Weapons (Bites, Claws, etc) count as Weapons for the purpose of Bellator Mythos?

----------


## Morphic tide

So, I've decided to get one of my ideas in:

What would a Mythos representing something only possible through the stable laws of physics be like, from an in-setting point of view? Essentially, a Mythos of Science and/or Objective Knowledge. The Mythos, typically, represent inherently physics breaking things, but what of a Mythos that is, from the lowest Excellency to the greatest Exalted Mythos, all about staying within physics, but exploiting them as hard as possible?

The general idea I have is that they would end up as high, _high_ t1 against any non-Mythos enemy, or other sorts of physics warpers, simply because they are the Embodiment of exploitation of Objective Reality. But once the actual reality warping starts up, and I'm talking Mythos type reality _warping/breaking_, not magic, they become increasingly useless as you go higher up in power. Would this even work with the Mythos setting? Like, is that sort of thing compatible with the nature of the Mythos setting, or is it outside the nature of what Mythos _are?_

As for abilities, the idea is basically that they have a lot of crafting going on, with rules to what can and cannot be done and no rules about what you can make with it, like a heavily simplified gramarie-based system. Maybe get a touch of Exalted's prayer fuel involved in it on some level, where you can get X people to worship the machines/pray around the machines for Y hours to get Z amount of energy, which can be used to power various functions hooked up by one or more of several methods.

If one can make it work properly, you can basically have the end result be the base builder Mythos, making stuff that casually destroys any non-Mythos thing and seriously delay most Mythos things by just having so much to tear through. Possibly have them be the "minionmancer" of the Mythos classes by not having much in the way of personal combat ability, but instead sending robot armies and moving fortresses to deal with problems for them.

----------


## VoodooPaladin

> What would a Mythos representing something only possible through the stable laws of physics be like, from an in-setting point of view?


From a fluff perspective, you want the Bellator, who have no magic powers but unlimited resourcefulness and ingenuity; mechanically speaking, a Michanikos would suit your vision better, as they are basically Artificers writ super-massive.

More to the point, I don't think Objective Reality is impossible to form a Mythos around. A Mythos is just a narrative used to formulate and justify having really cool and exciting power suites. So tell me: what is objective reality within the confines of a narrative in progress? What kind of narratives run on logical and scientific inquiry?

----------


## Inevitability

So, I had an idea. It's maybe not a great idea, but I'll be without internet for the remainder of the month and figured I should at least throw it out.

Basically, I'm considering creating a class around the Mentor Archetype. Depending on the mythos picked, characters could be anything between an Enigmatic Empowering Entity, a Spirit Advisor, and the general 'old wise guy' who travels with a party of misfits.

Examples of the kind of character I'm trying to replicate would be Gandalf, Merlin, Frank (Donnie Darko) and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

So what do you think? Does this sound like a viable class? What name should I give it?

----------


## Morphic tide

> So, I had an idea. It's maybe not a great idea, but I'll be without internet for the remainder of the month and figured I should at least throw it out.
> 
> Basically, I'm considering creating a class around the Mentor Archetype. Depending on the mythos picked, characters could be anything between an Enigmatic Empowering Entity, a Spirit Advisor, and the general 'old wise guy' who travels with a party of misfits.
> 
> Examples of the kind of character I'm trying to replicate would be Gandalf, Merlin, Frank (Donnie Darko) and Obi-Wan Kenobi.
> 
> So what do you think? Does this sound like a viable class? What name should I give it?


No idea about the class name, but it sounds like a great buffer class with an excuse for insane time numbers.

The Mythos I'd like to see would be lots and lots of Competence bonuses to things. Excellencies applying basic bonuses like physical attributes and temporary hit points, while Mythos give bizarre effects, sometimes linking to Leadership like boosting Cohort and Follower level outright, giving BAB, CL, ML and IL bonuses, increasing Essentia capacity and so on. Learning spells, powers, maneuvers and Soulmelds of your own with Excellencies and then being able to instruct allies in how to use them with Mythos, along with giving them feats, allowing you to literally be the toolbelt for the other characters of the party.

Durations on effects should be based on the thing given and means of giving it. Simple number increases taking hours to apply, then lowering gradually over the course of days, with single target bonuses lasting much longer. Stuff like spells, powers and maneuvers should be making an ally use it as a combat-viable action, using up whatever resource it uses from the ally instead of you, with them getting to use it with their own actions for some limited duration, possibly turns per level. Cohort-specific bonuses should be indefinite, basically making the cohort into a second character you control, with some catch that forces you to use lower-power classes on the Cohort. Preferably a whitelist of classes, rather than a blacklist, so that you have very strict, controllable limits on the power of the cohort. It'd also help keep the needed Mythos for teaching them abilities they use low enough to be manageable. And to stop you from having an Druid cohort with doubled CL...

Alternatively, instead of Leadership proper, you can have it get a class feature that acts as a less problematic version of Leadership. Lower cohort level and less/no followers, mainly, but also have the "allowed classes" list to keep it under control.

----------


## Xefas

> Examples of the kind of character I'm trying to replicate would be Gandalf, Merlin, Frank (Donnie Darko) and Obi-Wan Kenobi.
> 
> So what do you think? Does this sound like a viable class? What name should I give it?


This is a great idea, and something Primal Fury and I have talked about at length (a long while ago) in PMs. Someone should definitely make something like it in D&D.

In Mythopoeia, one of the Eight Divinities will be The Lodestar, whose themes are guidance, travel, wisdom, and patience. The Lodestar is also a bright physical star in the sky that doesn't move its position based on the time of year; it always sits in the north, making it the basis for navigation all over the mortal realm. Conceptualizing their Anthols was one thing that lead me towards the idea for Mythic Resonance, giving players [Stuff] for acting in accordance with the legends of their fellow party members. The Anthols of the Lodestar are, ostensibly, wise mentors who give great advice. This would suck for the player if no one ever took their advice seriously.




Anyway, if any of you are interested, I just started up a Choose Your Own Adventure based on Dungeon World over here (though the mechanics aren't used by the players; they just make choices) earlier today. 

I was considering throwing up a Dungeon World game in the PbP forum, but I wasn't certain how the mechanics would interact with play-by-post, so I did this instead. Be an adventurer! Make friends! Kill orcs! Get rich*!

(*riches void in the case of unprevented apocalypse)

----------


## Xefas

I've updated the google doc concerning Mythopoeia's Ten Hells with the 6th through 10th Hells, ostensibly completing it! Though, I have not done a good editing pass for spelling and grammar on them. Here is the link again.

I'm not sure these are actually being read, as I don't think there's a way to check how many views a doc is getting. But, regardless, I will likely be doing the chambers of the Eight Divinities next. Or perhaps some mortal-level setting info about money and language and stuff. Something. 

Mechanically, work is getting done, but I don't want to talk about it yet.

----------


## Dr_Dinosaur

> The general idea I have is that they would end up as high, _high_ t1 against any non-Mythos enemy, or other sorts of physics warpers, simply because they are the Embodiment of exploitation of Objective Reality. But once the actual reality warping starts up, and I'm talking Mythos type reality _warping/breaking_, not magic, they become increasingly useless as you go higher up in power. Would this even work with the Mythos setting? Like, is that sort of thing compatible with the nature of the Mythos setting, or is it outside the nature of what Mythos _are?_


I would suggest that this seems more like the "anti-mythos" mythos if anything. Like, preventing other mythos users from warping reality, grounding them and bringing them down to normal while all of your stuff keeps working.

----------


## Morphic tide

> I would suggest that this seems more like the "anti-mythos" mythos if anything. Like, preventing other mythos users from warping reality, grounding them and bringing them down to normal while all of your stuff keeps working.


That might actually be an interesting niche for it... Like, one side of the class is making base/army stuff that fails when subjected to Mythos attacks, but also being able to weaken/disable other Mythos users when present in-person.

----------


## GreaserFish

> I'm not sure these are actually being read, as I don't think there's a way to check how many views a doc is getting. But, regardless, I will likely be doing the chambers of the Eight Divinities next. Or perhaps some mortal-level setting info about money and language and stuff. Something.


Consider me to be reading along and waiting with bated breath.  Your Hells are exceptionally creative and I can't wait to see the rest of the setting unfold.

----------


## PeacefulOak

I also am following and enjoying the process.  

Question about the 3.5 version: does anyone have experience playing a non-evil Jaganatha? I have a player who is heading that route, and want to help make the experience an enjoyable one.

----------


## Lanth Sor

Newly created Mythos Compendium 2.0 Please let me know if there is something I missed. Ill be including links for non 3.5 stuff too.

----------


## EdinoiZ

Well, unless it's defunct, I believe you missed the Random Mythos Document. But I replied to the thread and linked that.



Also... Would anyone be interested in rumping about with some Mythos classes (and possibly gestalt)? I'm feeling myself getting a bit... Well, I really want to play in one. Blame Asura's Wrath, The Blade Itself, and other awesome fiction for that <.<

So yeah, thought I'd check here and then post an Interest Check or something...

----------


## PeacefulOak

I think gestalt mythos is a concept that doesn't sit terribly well, for me.

I could get behind playing a mythos game, and I'd enjoy playing an Eoteras if we could find a game master willing to play a game starting from earlier levels.

I think a level 1 start mythos based game could be really interesting.

Actually.... hmmm. I've had a game idea that has been percolating that -would- work with the mythos system and concept.

The concept is that IRL people (like Earth, 2017) who are anthols (though they don't realize it), stumble into a world of magic and mythology where their stories unfold.

My -original- concept was to do that, but have everyone play as -themselves-, but gaining class levels/abilities on entry into the world.

----------


## EdinoiZ

That sounds like a rather good campaign idea, both of them (though SIs are usually better done in less rigorous rule systems).

In regards to gestalt I can drop it like a hot potato as long as I get to Mythos! Though the original idea I had was to have the gestalting be downwards in Class Tiers, hitting T3-6 or T4-6 instead of T1-2 on the non-mythos side.

Still, hot potato. In air.

Towards ground.

Dropped it.

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## Lanth Sor

As someone who has loved gestalt form the first gestalt + mythos = /GM QUIT. (I was GM)

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## khadgar567

> As someone who has loved gestalt form the first gestalt + mythos = /GM QUIT. (I was GM)


I think i can feel you mate mythos + any thing will probably hit high tier one with out much effort

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## nikkoli

> As someone who has loved gestalt form the first gestalt + mythos = /GM QUIT. (I was GM)


Yeah but then you said tristalt double mythos evolutionist with as many flaws as you want and near free reign of PF 3.5 and most anything d20 was game, and stared in disbelief of what the party was.

Ah yes, the point, don't mix gestalt and mythos it goes places DMS don't like

----------


## Morphic tide

> Yeah but then you said tristalt double mythos evolutionist with as many flaws as you want and near free reign of PF 3.5 and most anything d20 was game, and stared in disbelief of what the party was.
> 
> Ah yes, the point, don't mix gestalt and mythos it goes places DMS don't like


Okay, I _need_ to know the utter world shattering hell that came out of that...

----------


## nikkoli

> Okay, I _need_ to know the utter world shattering hell that came out of that...


If my sheet is on myth weavers I'll link it, if its in the roll20 room I'll see about copying it to one and showing what happened. We only made it from lvl 1-3ish. hmmm. 
i cant remember if there was one or 2 tristalt games one of them i was an ogre mage (from the wow d20 stuff) // Dark Mage // Riftwalker.  This guy was a 2 headed ogre that had full archivist and wizard casting, and i had constitution to EVERYTHING except AC and reflex saves. that sheet is in roll20 and it would take hours to copy over.  He made it to level 8 and had ~ 800 HP becasue we used mana, and he had the spell mana shield. and he had some  36-40 CON, and they were mythic (PF) so he had mythic diehard.  One of the other players was an atomie (tiny or diminuitive sized fey from PF), and he was jaganatha, belletor, something or other. So when talking he acheived everything, but having like 6 str on both of those classes kinda sucked for him.
The other tristalt i think was Belletor // oletherofex// evolutionist.  I was the "Marble Knight" and started belletor //fighter // evolutionist and then died and was turned into a ghoul and got to swap bonus feats for more mythos. I also had an effective CHA of ~50.

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## PeacefulOak

Well, I did it. I posted a 3.M recruitment  thread. Hope it gets some traction!

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## EdinoiZ

Posting again to let you guys know that the interest thread is up.

EDIT: And derp. My bad...

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## Lanth Sor

Nikkoli is a common thread of regret in 90% of my games.

party rolls up with +12 base damage to single target he srolls up and make everyting in a 30ft radius reflex save or take 30.(common theme).

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## PeacefulOak

> Nikkoli is a common thread of regret in 90% of my games.


Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice...?  ;)

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## nikkoli

> Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice...?  ;)


Yeah we are on take 30. My first dnd character ever was a terramach. Lanth recommended the class to me, he was the GM

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## Lanth Sor

I reopened Magos for the hate mail and added a banner.

Also below a new Fantastic Mythos for Archikos please PEACH

*Spoiler: Prerequisite*
Show

*In the Ring I Dance, In the Ring You Fall*
*Prerequisite:* -
[Pristine]

Rings of mushrooms are known to appear throughout the world, marking places where the first world bleeds through. Its believed that fey gather at these points, the truth is not far from it, fey are responsible for such places. 

As a standard action, spawn a ring of mushrooms called a faerie circle. This faerie circle grants you and your allies a +1/5th class level(min 1) luck bonus to AC and any d20 rolls made while in the circle. The faerie circle has a diameter of 5ft per 2 levels. 

*Basic*
Arbor Trees: Trees sprout up around the edge of the circle blocking any path to its heart. The trees are as tall as the circles radius and 5ft in diameter creating a perfect seal as they butt up against one another. They have the same hit points as a tree of equal size. This is a ring Augment you may only use one ring augment at a time. [Plant]

Encircle the Breach: The word "diameter" is replaced with "radius" for determining the circles size.

Stone Ring: The mushrooms are replaced with small stones bearing ancient glowing runes. While in the ring you gain a +1/2 class level(min +1) to any check to make a deal, in addition to the normal bonus. Additionally any deal made while in the ring has its DC increased by 2.This is a ring Augment you may only use one ring augment at a time.

Wisps of the First: Anyone who starts the night sleeping in this faerie circle gains the benefit of the Restful Sleep spell. Tiny yellow motes fill the air as if the entire area is filled with dancing lights, except they only provide dim light. [Prsitine]

Verdant Growth Extrapolation: The area is filled with thick under growth providing half cover to medium creatures beyond 5ft and total cover to anything small creatures beyond 5ft, smaller creatures gain +10 to hide checks for each size below small. The radius is increases to changes from 5ft increments to 7.5ft. However the only verdant growth and manifestations requiring verdant growth benefit form the increased increment. As such the passive luck bonuses don't begin until 10ft for a lvl 4 archikos even though their Verdant Growth Extrapolation coves 15ft. [Plant]

*Advanced*
Arbor of the Storm: To acquire this manifestation you must first have Arbor Trees. Along the edge of the circle a tree sprout up and then in a sudden flash all of them are struck by lightning leaving a static field around them. Instead of the normal impassible ring of trees there is a tree every 5ft. around the edge. Anyone who passes by or begins their turn adjacent to one of these trees takes your cha mod lightning damage. This is a ring Augment you may only use one ring augment at a time. [Lightning]

Field of Flames: To acquire this manifestation you must first have Verdant Growth Extrapolation. Activating this manifestation is a standard action that requires Verdant Growth Extrapolation to be active. Fire based effects are 50% more effective in the circle, and cold based effects are only half as effective in the flames. The flames themselves do 1d4 fire damage to all but the archikos and charisma mod people. This is a ring Augment you may only use one ring augment at a time. [Fire]

Guard the Breach: The circle now effects a area of 5ft per level.

Henge of the Ancients: To acquire this manifestation you must first have Stone Ring. The stones become massive arches, akin to Stonehenge, bearing archaic runes. With every word that you speak the runes thrum with power. All language dependent abilities you use have +2 caster level. Additionally any contract made while in the space including all forms of summoning magic have their duration doubled. [Aklo]

Motes of the First: Anyone who starts the night sleeping in faerie circle gains the benefit of the Nap Stack spell. Tiny yellow motes fill the air as if the entire area is filled with dancing lights. [Pristine]

Safe Arborage: To acquire this manifestation you must first have Arbor Trees, Wisps of the First, and Motes of the First. The space inside the arborage radiates a pale blue lights that is some how soothing. Lush grass and flowers grow with in the arbor to the creator's liking. While in the circle all organic matter is healed 1 hp per minute. Also damage to physical ability scores is restored at a rate of 1 per hour. For every 1 point of ability damage restored the Archikos is fatigued for 1 hour after the circle is dismissed. This is a ring Augment you may only use 1 ring augment at a time. [Pristine]


*Spoiler: New Fantastic Mythos*
Show

*Court of the First Pact*
*Prerequisite:* Henge of the Ancients

None still live who know its ancient purpose, but many have found the court at the heart of the jungle. Massive monoliths of stone shaped in elegant arches, runes of inlaid marble glow with magic too ancient to divine, and words too eldritch to know. There is a high chair center, and set back with a large stone table bearing the exact number of seats for each person to enter the sanctum.

By spending a minute channeling the archikos can cause their Henge of the Ancients shift and move into a grand court made of stone. The design is determined by the archikos upon taking the mythos. They all provide a grand discussion room in the center and a signature area weather a grand podium or table. 

When entering the Court of the First Pact the archikos may designate any number of persons as part of a council. No person can be part of a council if they are larger than the entrance to the court or they would take up more than 1/5th the radius of the court. Any creature not part of the council must will save or be unable to enter the court.

When council is held in the Court of the First Pact the archikos has the ability to force everyone in the court to will save or be unable to speak for 1 round. The archikos can choose to exclude as many targets as they like. 

At the end of any council in the court the archikos may draw up a contract and all signing participants will be held to any regulations agreed upon in the council. 

If any participant of the council that signed the contract should break the terms of the signed contract they begin to lose 2 to all ability scores per day they are in violation of the contract. Alternatively, the council can define the repercussions of breaking the contract.

After the contract has been signed it cannot be modified and no one not agreed upon at time of creation of the contract can sign the contract.

Any contract made as the result of a council is held in the library of the court. The library is only accessible while the court is manifested. Most often the library is a section of locked shelves. The contracts themselves are wondrous magic items for all intents and purposes, and are treated as if they were made of a material as durable as Adamantine.

----------


## PeacefulOak

So I'm updating my Eoteras (link in my signature) again. :) 

All this mythos talk has inspired me to hopefully bring it to completion.

I would greatly appreciate whatever feedback anyone might have.

----------


## Gideon Falcon

Has anyone thought of revisiting the Mythic Rogue archetype? From the compendium, the most complete and IMO best attempt was the Umbramendax, which just needed Exalted and a few more Legendary Mythos, and perhaps a few more excellencies. There was also an Ophidian mentioned in Xefas' upcoming gallery, but I can't quite tell if that's supposed to be the rogue or a shadowcaster (not that those are especially disparate ideas). Maybe if I end up getting enough ideas, I might try my own hand, but I'm not exactly seasoned.

----------


## Xefas

We 5e now, boys.

I'm not sure if we've got enough 5e interest for this to be a thing I continue to pursue in the long term, but maybe we do. Regardless, I'm going to put out at least a few classes.

I've got two that are >60% done, the Mechanikos and the Cynosure. Here's a Strawpoll with which you can influence which one I work to finish up first (and also express your interest in seeing more classes without making an actual post, for you lurkers).

----------


## VoodooPaladin

Voted for the Cynosure. I wanna see some fools get Geoffrey'd.

----------


## Drunken Jesus

Does this mean no more new 3.5 mythos classes from you Xefas?

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## Xefas

> Does this mean no more new 3.5 mythos classes from you Xefas?


Not necessarily. But I won't be making any new 3.5 stuff until I buy a new PC, and it's further contingent on whether I'm able to recover the RPG folder from my old hard drive. (I mentioned this briefly a few pages back, in January, but my Christmas present from the universe was catastrophic computer failure.) If it turns out I lost everything, I'm not sure I can bring myself to rewrite it all. I had several classes at near completion, and many more at lesser stages of development, but with hours put into them nonetheless. Plus various supplementary Mythos (like the Mythic President, which I wrote two years ago, but forgot to post it the last two July 4ths and now the world may never get to see Crossing The Delaware Methodology and the Fifty Star Lariat, and the story of how Teddy Roosevelt, Abraham Lincoln, and George Washington defeated the Sorcerer-King Napoleon, T-Rex Hitler, and the English).

This is why I've been futzing with other stuff. Among them, a stand alone system and setting for Mythos (Mythopoeia), and now Mythos for 5e.

----------


## Theseventh

You would be surprised how cheap data recovery is, and how much they can pull from a borked drive. That's assuming that it was a hardware failure like a shorted power supply or something. If it was a software issue like a virus or corrupted data chances are a bit lower, but still possible. 

Either way, if you manage to recover it you should dump all of your 3.5 mythos stuff, finished or not, to an external cloud drive or something. Keep it safe for the future and let others see if should something terrible happen again we can rebuild from your ideas.

----------


## dethkruzer

> now the world may never get to see Crossing The Delaware Methodology and the Fifty Star Lariat, and the story of how Teddy Roosevelt, Abraham Lincoln, and George Washington defeated the Sorcerer-King Napoleon, T-Rex Hitler, and the English


Aww, now I'm actually kinda sad. That sounds amazing. Well, hopefully you can get something at least fished out of your hard drive.

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## khadgar567

> Not necessarily. But I won't be making any new 3.5 stuff until I buy a new PC, and it's further contingent on whether I'm able to recover the RPG folder from my old hard drive. (I mentioned this briefly a few pages back, in January, but my Christmas present from the universe was catastrophic computer failure.) If it turns out I lost everything, I'm not sure I can bring myself to rewrite it all. I had several classes at near completion, and many more at lesser stages of development, but with hours put into them nonetheless. Plus various supplementary Mythos (like the Mythic President, which I wrote two years ago, but forgot to post it the last two July 4ths and now the world may never get to see Crossing The Delaware Methodology and the Fifty Star Lariat, and the story of how Teddy Roosevelt, Abraham Lincoln, and George Washington defeated the Sorcerer-King Napoleon, T-Rex Hitler, and the English).
> 
> This is why I've been futzing with other stuff. Among them, a stand alone system and setting for Mythos (Mythopoeia), and now Mythos for 5e.





> You would be surprised how cheap data recovery is, and how much they can pull from a borked drive. That's assuming that it was a hardware failure like a shorted power supply or something. If it was a software issue like a virus or corrupted data chances are a bit lower, but still possible. 
> 
> Either way, if you manage to recover it you should dump all of your 3.5 mythos stuff, finished or not, to an external cloud drive or something. Keep it safe for the future and let others see if should something terrible happen again we can rebuild from your ideas.


If its from power then you are luck mate cuz all your files are intact in old disk just buy hdd drive connecting set and all your files back as normal

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## Gideon Falcon

I suppose that lost info includes the missing mythos from Olethrofex? There are a few that just have names but no description.

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## Zale

> Has anyone thought of revisiting the Mythic Rogue archetype? From the compendium, the most complete and IMO best attempt was the Umbramendax, which just needed Exalted and a few more Legendary Mythos, and perhaps a few more excellencies. There was also an Ophidian mentioned in Xefas' upcoming gallery, but I can't quite tell if that's supposed to be the rogue or a shadowcaster (not that those are especially disparate ideas). Maybe if I end up getting enough ideas, I might try my own hand, but I'm not exactly seasoned.


Alright, I was thinking about a mythic _thief_. The primary themes were greed and how it's bad for you, with a series of mythos evolving into stealing abstract concepts and the like. 

I didn't get super far, as some things came up, but I could post the work I had to a pastebin/google doc if someone wants to pick it over. 

Some of the thought-theme characters were Vriska (_Homestuck_), Loki (_Mythology_) and Cio's old self (_Kill Six Billion Demons_). 

The thematic quote I was thinking about using was actually a line from the last one, "Theiving is like a deadly poison to me. If I touch it, it will fill me up to the brim." 

I was going to do a base-line capacity sweep, then go over it again with an eye to twisting it. Of course, it's a bit much to go on about as it's currently sitting at 3 half-done mythos and a bunch of one-line questionable ideas for later class features. 

It's aiming for more of a class dungeoneering rogue/person who steals things than an assassin or shadow-master archetype. I'm pretty sure one of their mythos would probably end up being "Heist Planning Montage" themed ala the Anakito's Arete pool, but linked to a specific plan about how to infiltrate a place/obtain some object.  

One of the high tier plans involved a class-feature pilfering ability. 

Anyway, hope that's helpful in some way!

----------


## GreaserFish

So, I'm revisiting an old idea.  I'm not sure if this is any good, and I don't have any ideas for basic/advanced manifestations yet.  All I know is that the Anakitos is cool, but it doesn't feel enough like a paladin to satisfy my urge to smite the wicked and provide succor to the weak.

*Spoiler: EXCEPTIONAL*
Show

*Heart's Eye Awakening*
[Compassion]
Prerequisite : Two ranks in the Sense Motive skill.
_Oft, the Martyr looked upon the state of the world and weeps for the injustice they saw there.  All people suffer, they realized, and all people deserve a chance._

Upon taking this mythos, the following effect immediately activates.
You become deeply and intimately aware of the emotions and trauma of those around you, feeling it all as if it was your own.
Make a sense motive check.  Roll three times and take the highest result.
In order to leave this state of heightened empathy, you must make a will save as a move action against the sense motive check you just made.
A natural twenty will always succeed in bringing you down from the empathy.
Every round you fail to come down from this state, you take a stacking -2 morale penalty to all rolls other than your will save to leave the state, to a maximum of -10.
Every minute that passes after leaving the state removes one -2 penalty from the stack.
Once you have recovered from the initial experience of feeling the emotions of the people around you, you may attempt to attune your emotions with another creature.
In order to attune a creature, it must have a mind and be capable of experiencing emotion.
Make a sense motive check against any creature that qualifies and is within your line of sight.
That creature opposes your check with a will save.
If your check is higher, you gain a temporary understanding of that creature's emotions and a +2 circumstances bonus on any diplomacy/bluff/handle animal checks against that creature, whichever is applicable.
If your check is higher by at least four points, you pierce deeper into that creature's heart and gain an understanding of who they are as a person/monster/sentient bulldog/etc.
You gain another, permanent +2 circumstance bonus on any rolls where understanding that creature's motivations and emotions would be useful.
Understanding is a two-way street, however, and the attuned creature gains a +2 circumstances bonus to the same rolls.
If the creature succeeds in rolling higher, then you gain no special insight into its mind.
If it succeeds by four or more points or rolls a nat 20, it becomes aware of the foreign presence in its mind.
Creatures capable of using psionics or other mental abilities can trace the effect back to you.
Regardless of whether or not they are aware of the connection, the attuned creature is not aware of the sway they now hold over your emotions.
The connection lasts for a number of rounds equal to twice your wisdom modifier.  At the end of the connection, the attunement and temporary bonuses end.

----------


## Gideon Falcon

> So, I'm revisiting an old idea.  I'm not sure if this is any good, and I don't have any ideas for basic/advanced manifestations yet.  All I know is that the Anakitos is cool, but it doesn't feel enough like a paladin to satisfy my urge to smite the wicked and provide succor to the weak.
> 
> *Spoiler: EXCEPTIONAL*
> Show
> 
> *Heart's Eye Awakening*
> [Compassion]
> Prerequisite : Two ranks in the Sense Motive skill.
> _Oft, the Martyr looked upon the state of the world and weeps for the injustice they saw there.  All people suffer, they realized, and all people deserve a chance._
> ...


If you're looking for a more classical Paladin, the Agios by Lanth Sor is more up your alley. It allows you to protect your allies with the best of them, and has a number of abilities to shell out alignment-based damage for maximum smitage. It doesn't have as much healing, save for abilities that require the ally in question to hit a target to get their healing, but it can transfer any defensive bonus to nearby allies, and even gets the classical Aura of Courage. Your Mythos would fit with that class to an absolute T.

----------


## roko10

To those who are still unaware, Xefas has released  a bunch of cool Mythos classes for 5E. Hell, even I got in on the fun! Go check them out.

----------


## Inevitability

I'm definitely going to jump on the proverbial 5e bandwagon and brew up something of my own soon.

----------


## Theseventh

I'l be honest. Sad to see the jump to 5e. I don't care about 5e at all and I know this is going to mortally wound, or at the very least slow, the continued development of the 3.5 stuff. Call me selfish I guess.

Reminds me of Gramarie all over again. Old system was not done, it had it's flaws yes. But then everyone decided to jump ship to begin working on a new version that never panned out and now both are dead. Sad times.

----------


## ImperatorV

Eh we already have 3 Xefas classes and 1 non-Xefas. I don't see this one dying out with the switch to 5e, in fact it might inspire people to make new material, which can be back-ported to 3.5 by people who still prefer that system. 

Also, Grammarie died mostly because it was too darn complicated, and everything was so interconnected that it all had to be finished to be playable. A problem of too much work and not enough results. Mythos, especially the 5e version, is made in smaller chunks that are easier to handle, and we already have enough for a full party (Swordbearer frontline + Cynosure leader + Mechanikos crafter + a regular full caster works really well as a standard party).

----------


## Gideon Falcon

The 5e Mythos classes aren't easily back-converted, though- they have very specific abilities, rather than the expansive list of Mythos that most classes have available to them. I'm still holding out that some of the suggestions people have made for harddrive recovery will be able to help Xefas get his old docs back.

----------


## roko10

> The 5e Mythos classes aren't easily back-converted, though- they have very specific abilities, rather than the expansive list of Mythos that most classes have available to them. I'm still holding out that some of the suggestions people have made for harddrive recovery will be able to help Xefas get his old docs back.


As a counterpoint, however, this also means that the 5e Mythos classes can be produced way faster than the 3.5e classes. Heck, I managed to finish up the newly minted Kalthorros in roughly a day compared to the week that it took to get the original Kalthorros up in its unfinished state. 

Beside that, most of the 3.5e Mythos allows some specific thing that's normally impossible for "mundanes" to do in 3.5e thanks to it "have a rule for everything" mindset, something that 5e notably lacks. Therefore, 5e Mythos can get away with a lower amount of options rather than the bucketlist granted by the 3.5e Mythos.

On a completely unrelelated note, I can't wait to see the Anakitos getting converted to 5e. It's Fetters (especially the DIY Code of Conduct) would be an absolutely fantastic way to trigger Resonance, instead of now where I kind of feel it's kind of a straitjacket.

----------


## Gideon Falcon

Still, I really hope Xefas can get his info back. I enjoy 5e well enough, but I vastly prefer 3.5.

----------


## Xefas

A new 5e Mythos Class is coming in the next day or two. Its 3.5 incarnation never came to be, but was probably the single most requested class of all those in the imgur album. After this class, I'm hoping to focus a bit on polishing the four I've got before pushing out new ones. 

A preview:
*Spoiler*
Show


*Aside The Light Of Truth*
"I Am." said the Empyrean, and so it was that she existed. And outlined by the light of that universal truth, the All-Shadow whispered, "I Am Not." and by the lie of his beginning, he entered false existence. In that act was the genesis of all deceit. 

Choose one of the following three abilities to acquire.

*Insidious Gossip Infection*
When you use the Deception skill to tell someone something emotionally manipulative, misleading, or false, you may activate this ability to transform your lie into an insidious mental parasite, giving it a particular identity to seek out. Your Deception automatically fails against its original target, who does not believe what you've said, but your parasite scrambles inside of its shadow and lurks there, undetected.

The next time the infected person is nearby whomever's identity you gave the parasite, they will be compelled to repeat your parasitic falsehood to them, secretly, as if gossiping. Your original Deception check is then applied to this newest person, who may very well be deceived into believing it is true. The parasite then dies, having fulfilled its task. If it would be unusual for the parasite's host to gossip with its intended recipient (for example, a lesser noble whispering in the king's ear at court), the host may be allowed a Charisma saving throw to resist the compulsion, at which point the parasite dies anyway. 

One of these mental parasites can survive a maximum of (your Charisma modifier) weeks in wait, before it expires prematurely. 

*Two-Faced Instigator Method*
Miscommunications happen every day. Two people with the best of intentions argue over nothing, incited by slightly misplaced semantics or a misheard word. People with fundamentally identical beliefs fight with one another over small differences in their ideology's window-dressing. The All-Shadow is not a victim of miscommunication, he is its progenitor, and it is his weapon - a broken sword that cuts down nations without ever being drawn. 

When you speak, you may choose to say two things. One is your primary message, which is heard by everyone by default. One is your secondary message, which replaces your primary message for specific individuals that you mentally target (you must be aware of a person's presence to target them, though you need not necessarily see them).

If both of your messages are largely similar, but for a few small changes, there is no saving throw. If your messages are wildly different, then you must make a Deception check against your audiences in order to keep your words straight between them; a failed check means that someone has realizes you're trying to dupe them, though they don't necessarily know how, why, or into what.

For example, you might address a senate divided into three parties. You begin speaking, delivering a default message of supporting a particular piece of legislature, which you choose for the progressive and moderate parties to hear, as well as anyone who happens to be wandering about whose presence you are unaware of and are not specifically targeting - however, you choose for the traditionalist party to hear your secondary message, which is that you vehemently oppose the same piece of legislature. Because both messages are about the same thing, just slightly different, you need not make a Deception check.

For a second example, you might be talking to a man in his home, aware that his wife is in the next room, listening. The default message you give for all to hear is a suggestion that you and the man go hunting this weekend, to which he is heartily in favor of. The secondary message, which only the wife hears, is a conspiratorial plot to help her husband murder her - she hears this, as well as her husband's excitement at doing so this weekend. Because these messages are quite different, you must make a Deception check opposed by both people. If the husband succeeds in opposition, he might get the impression that this hunting trip suggestion is really innuendo about how much you hate his wife, while the wife succeeding might divulge to her that you're saying a lot of horrible things about her, but that her husband has nothing to do with it and is talking past you about something else.

*Society-Felling Apathy Scythe*
As an action, you may make a Deception check targeting everyone that has just witnessed a horrible, scandalous, socially unacceptable act that you were present for. As part of the check, you do not necessarily tell a lie, but rather inform everyone that they would personally be better off if they simply ignore what has just transpired - to talk about it would only invite personal inconvenience upon them.

Those that fail to oppose the check are still very much aware that the act transpired, but will not talk about it with anyone unless they are directly facing imminent death in retribution for not speaking of it. They will deny with every fiber of their being that they saw anything at all, swear to their gods that they weren't there, and pretend for the rest of their life that what they're doing is okay. You become mentally aware of anyone targeted by this ability that succeeded in opposing your check, but your targets are also aware that you'll know if they aren't convinced. Some bystanders will intentionally fail the check to avoid your wrath, if they suspect you have wrath to give.

For example, you stab a drunk to death in the middle of a crowded bar and then activate this ability. You tell everyone that, if they don't just turn around and go back about their business, they're putting themselves at risk for the same. "You forget a thousand things every day. Make sure this is one of them." Several people fail their opposed check but some succeed. You grab one of the ones who succeeded and stab them to death too, then activate the ability again. This time, no one succeeds; imagine that. An hour later, a few new faces walk in, see the bodies, and run to the town guard. The guards show up, question everyone, but mysteriously no one saw anything; the bodies just appeared covered in stab wounds for no reason. The guards start roughing up the barkeep, breaking a few stools, smashing some glasses, making threats, but he swears nothing like that happened in his bar. Meanwhile, you hang out in the corner making everyone super uncomfortable.

----------


## PeacefulOak

Iiiiinteresting!

I'm excited to see how it plays out!

----------


## spwack

Help. I want them all.

A couple points: "the *original* host may be allowed a Charisma saving throw to resist the compulsion" might be a little more straightforward. I feel like Insidious Gossip Infection is very accurate and targeted. Fair enough. But wouldn't it be cool if it was a viral vector more than anything, with a vague predisposition to reach a certain ear? Not sure how that would work. It can pass between your Charisma modifier connections? Coal-boy to servant to butler to lord to noble to king?

----------


## Xefas

> Help. I want them all.


The whole class went up earlier today, by the way (I get the impression that some people check this thread in preference to scanning through all the new board submissions, so in the future, I'll endeavor to announce these things a bit better).




> A couple points: "the *original* host may be allowed a Charisma saving throw to resist the compulsion" might be a little more straightforward. I feel like Insidious Gossip Infection is very accurate and targeted. Fair enough. But wouldn't it be cool if it was a viral vector more than anything, with a vague predisposition to reach a certain ear? Not sure how that would work. It can pass between your Charisma modifier connections? Coal-boy to servant to butler to lord to noble to king?


Funny you should suggest that. The first version of that ability was called "Memetic Gossip Infection" and worked like an indiscriminate deception disease. But I felt it was a bit strong and also that a pinpoint strike more fit the Adversary's adversarial nature. I'm not against adding in a more viral ability at some point, though (theoretically, each class still has 10 more levels for me to play with).

----------


## Lanth Sor

> Has anyone thought of revisiting the Mythic Rogue archetype? From the compendium, the most complete and IMO best attempt was the Umbramendax, which just needed Exalted and a few more Legendary Mythos, and perhaps a few more excellencies. There was also an Ophidian mentioned in Xefas' upcoming gallery, but I can't quite tell if that's supposed to be the rogue or a shadowcaster (not that those are especially disparate ideas). Maybe if I end up getting enough ideas, I might try my own hand, but I'm not exactly seasoned.


I support this idea i really liked the place int was going with the class but he NINJA POOF BALLED, and Seasoning happens through doing.

----------


## dragonjek

I've looked at the descriptions of the new Mythos classes, but they seem incredibly lacking. The zest and rich history you class authors normally bring to Mythos classes isn't present. As it was, a DM could just say that something along the lines of "nope, no Titans or Lawbringers, these are basically just super-classes" if their campaign world didn't fit the history of the Mythos.

Anyways, I really hope that you creator sorts do backport the new 5e classes to 3.5. Although play is smoother and easier in 5e and it's quicker to build classes and characters, I overall find 5e classes to be lacking in... I suppose you could say "potential".

Also... what  happened to the awesome character images you normally provide? Considering that at least Xefas has already made them over on his site, I don't see why they wouldn't be there.

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## VoodooPaladin

> I've looked at the descriptions of the new Mythos classes, but they seem incredibly lacking.


Are you referring to the 5e ones, or the 3.5 non-Xefas ones?

----------


## Lanth Sor

Will be updating Compendium for new 5E content tonight. Please link threads i miss here.

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## Xefas

> I've looked at the descriptions of the new Mythos classes, but they seem incredibly lacking. The zest and rich history you class authors normally bring to Mythos classes isn't present. As it was, a DM could just say that something along the lines of "nope, no Titans or Lawbringers, these are basically just super-classes" if their campaign world didn't fit the history of the Mythos.


Your displeasure is noted. If you could give me an example of something a 3.5 class had that you particularly enjoyed that the 5e classes do not have an analogue to, perhaps I can find a way to include more such things in the future.

If it's just the stories of the Myths interacting with each other - perhaps I can make a central thread for that, as they're edition-neutral and not necessary to know to actually use the classes. 




> Also... what  happened to the awesome character images you normally provide? Considering that at least Xefas has already made them over on his site, I don't see why they wouldn't be there.


I want to do something different with them for 5e. But I've got no image editing software anymore!

Hopefully that will also be something rectified soon.




> Will be updating Compendium for new 5E content tonight. Please link threads i miss here.


Thank you for maintaining this compendium, by the way. I think you've done a good job with it.

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## roko10

Quick question, which ability score is more fitting for a writer; Intelligence or Wisdom? 

This is totally just a random question and not foreshadowing for a new 5e/3.5e class at all. No, really.  :Small Tongue:

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## Tacitus

I'd imagine it depends what you're writing. Technical manuals and history, fantasy and mystery, romance and propaganda. Where does your pen take you?

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## Gideon Falcon

Is anyone still working on the 3.5 Mythos classes? I myself have had some ideas to flesh out the incomplete Umbramendax using, among other things, some materials from Xefas' Adversary.

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## PeacefulOak

My Eoteras is still in progress, whenever I have time and inspiration.

Check the Compendium, message the appropriate user to see if they're OK with you assisting/taking over, and go from there!

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## Gideon Falcon

Yeah, I have, but the guy who made the Umbramendax hasn't responded. I don't know if he still frequents these forums. I was more asking because I don't know if I'm the only one still interested in 3.5.

----------


## khadgar567

> Yeah, I have, but the guy who made the Umbramendax hasn't responded. I don't know if he still frequents these forums. I was more asking because I don't know if I'm the only one still interested in 3.5.


Well i am to intrested in 3.5 version

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## nikkoli

Message lanth sir. We play with the 3.5 stuff on a regular basis add he's got like 2-3 unfinished ones floating around here.

----------


## DracoDei

> I'l be honest. Sad to see the jump to 5e. I don't care about 5e at all and I know this is going to mortally wound, or at the very least slow, the continued development of the 3.5 stuff. Call me selfish I guess.
> 
> Reminds me of Gramarie all over again. Old system was not done, it had it's flaws yes. But then everyone decided to jump ship to begin working on a new version that never panned out and now both are dead. Sad times.





> Still, I really hope Xefas can get his info back. I enjoy 5e well enough, but I vastly prefer 3.5.





> Well i am to intrested in 3.5 version





> Message lanth sir. We play with the 3.5 stuff on a regular basis add he's got like 2-3 unfinished ones floating around here.


I still wish to post my Phileotheysia for 3.5 at some point...

Something that would help me do so would be if I could get a solemn oath VERY strong assurance that I will not be bugged about the titan-related stuff (I never took much of a shine to that oddly enough), nor about having merged "healing" onto "sacrifice" and ESPECIALLY that nobody will utter the word "simplify" in my thread without offering a rewritten version for my consideration. If I could write simpler without compromising my vision I already would have. Complexity of writing is a inherent problem of mine. OTOHs one of the previous thread titles for these general mythos discussion threads was "Where Simplicity Goes to Die" and Bdrone made it through the entire thing on GoogleDocs with only a few questions.

Note that I would be more than happy if someone (perhaps Lanth Sor) would work on the Titan part, I just don't want to be told I need to get such a thing created before people will consider my work.


On a side note that spoils a recent Blockbuster that has semi-recently made it onto DVD, plus a PonyFic and an Magical Girl Anime:
*Spoiler*
Show

Movie!Doctor Strange now joins my list of really good examples of a Phileotheysia's mentality in action... which, with Nightmare Whisper and Madoka, brings the list to three...  most of the other examples have this nasty problem of that their sacrifice has a end-point, rather than being indefinite or eternal. Of course, with the way the Phileotheysia mythos usually work it is more a matter of "repeated", rather than "continual". The Shintai is the partial exception (thank you Madoka for the inspiration!).



EDIT: I DO have some notes on the Titan, they just don't add up to a full story. I think I may make up for it with other flavorful bits such as a filk I wrote for the class, and a link to another filk that fits a different part of the class, but which wasn't written for it, and isn't by me.

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## Theseventh

> I still wish to post my Phileotheysia for 3.5 at some point...
> 
> Something that would help me do so would be if I could get a solemn oath VERY strong assurance that I will not be bugged about the titan-related stuff (I never took much of a shine to that oddly enough), nor about having merged "healing" onto "sacrifice" and ESPECIALLY that nobody will utter the word "simplify" in my thread without offering a rewritten version for my consideration. If I could write simpler without compromising my vision I already would have. Complexity of writing is a inherent problem of mine. OTOHs one of the previous thread titles for these general mythos discussion threads was "Where Simplicity Goes to Die" and Bdrone made it through the entire thing on GoogleDocs with only a few questions.


I am all for anything that kicks simplicity to the curb! Why do you think I still play 3.5? I really want to see this!

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## DracoDei

> I am all for anything that kicks simplicity to the curb! Why do you think I still play 3.5? I really want to see this!


Very well. I'll get it up when I have a chance. Gotta figure out how many posts I will need for this beast and such. Not to mention trying to leave out at least MOST of the editing notes and mechanically incomplete excellencies and mythoi.

Plus I'm still recovering from a nasty cold.

EDIT: I hope to post later tonight after the site traffic has died down. Intentionally leaving in about 10% of my editing notes so that readers may advise me on the uncertainties they mention.

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## DracoDei

And here you all go!
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Martyr-Mythos
(Prays for P.E.A.C.H.)

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## Tacitus

Just my 2cp, but I'm still interested in 3.5 mythos material, and tinker with my Occasus from time to time. Its a damn ****show though. Amusingly enough, also a healer concept, but it became bloated with concepts and should probably be more than one class. Got muddled with insanity, surgery, body horror, and armorsmithing. I've a google doc, but I'm not up to making it public as yet.

----------


## Theseventh

> Just my 2cp, but I'm still interested in 3.5 mythos material, and tinker with my Occasus from time to time. Its a damn ****show though. Amusingly enough, also a healer concept, but it became bloated with concepts and should probably be more than one class. Got muddled with insanity, surgery, body horror, and armorsmithing. I've a google doc, but I'm not up to making it public as yet.


Oh come now, Draco released the raw beta version of his class in all it's unrefined glory. You should too!

On that note




> Links in the index in the first post should be fixed, in case that was the reason I have so many views (not all of which are likely to be from me) and no responses.


I've looked at it. I will need to do some more looking and compile a list before I start PEACHing. Off the top of my head I know there is some formatting issues, and plenty of abilities could have their wording simplified or their mechanics clarified. Not to make this seem like a jab at you Draco but is english a second language for you? I see a couple of things in here that might speak to that being the case.

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## khadgar567

well one more people to support 3.5 mythos continuation. I like to see it continue to

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## DracoDei

> I've looked at it. I will need to do some more looking and compile a list before I start PEACHing.


I look forward to it!



> Off the top of my head I know there is some formatting issues, and plenty of abilities could have their wording simplified or their mechanics clarified.


I would welcome suggested rewrites. I will remind y'all, in case it is needed, that saying "simplify this part" will likely prove insufficient in the great majority of cases.



> Not to make this seem like a jab at you Draco but is english a second language for you? I see a couple of things in here that might speak to that being the case.


Only metaphorically.

English is my first language, and the only ones I have any formal education in beyond that would be Latin, and the tinniest smidgen of Spanish.

On the other hand I do have what used to be known as Asperger's Syndrome, which is somewhat like being from another planet* socially, and this does influence the way I talk. I was once told I speak like a Shakespearean actor.
*'Population: 1', not 'Population: Everyone with high-functioning autism'.

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## ThreadNecro5

I'm still around now and again, and have ideas for 3.5 material. However I am bogged down under material for my homebrew setting (races... so many races...) and whenever I try and do something Mythos related inspiration fails to strike.

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## Tacitus

You got me. The tsunami of cajoling to present it has convinced me.

Seriously though, the Occasus, though I would prefer it not be added to a links repository at this time. At this stage I'm not looking at expanding material, but if anyone wants to offer thoughts on whether the Mania is too complicated and if the concept has expanded too far I would appreciate any feedback. I'd prefer PMs here on giants, but my understanding is the doc allows comments, I think? I don't googledoc often.

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## Gideon Falcon

So, I had an idea for what could be either an Agios or an Anakitos Mythos- mainly, because there seem to be a lot more options in Mythos for evil and/or morally grey characters than for good ones- even the Anakitos seems more geared toward the 'Lawful Stick-in-the-Mud' version of Paladins than actually Good, and the Kreikiri, Dinyomi, Jagannatha, Taramach, Epifovian and the like all have abilities that either involve outright torture and murder or have massive amounts of collateral damage- the only Good-aligned abilities that come to mind are for the Agios, or the Dinyomi's "You can do horrible, horrible, evil things but still count as good because cynicism" Mythos. So, to inject some Idealism into the mix, I present:

*Hypocrisy Revealing Light of Reckoning*
Legendary
Prerequisites: Special, see text

     It is well known among clerics, outsiders, and powerful individuals in general that Good and Evil are more than just a label. Mystical forces in and around the planes align themselves to morality and ethics just as people do. Angels and Devils have Good and Evil magic in their very essences, and many spells react to it so as to banish, repel, or control them.
     You, however, have come to a deeper realization; these mystical forces are not what makes up morality either. Good and evil are not a set of opposed schools of magic, and certainly not a mortal construction, but a natural and inevitable, inescapable consequence of sapience that existed in and of itself the instant the Empyrian had another entity to speak to. Not even an Outer God can make it Right to murder the innocent, nor make it Wrong to give kindness and selflessness to those around you. Many wielders of tales and stories seem to disagree, but you can prove them wrong.

     As a standard action, you can select a creature within 60 feet that is able to hold an alignment at odds with its actions in some way- inclucing a Mythic Planetouched that can count any action as a Good one, or a Mythic Adversary (Note; I can't remember the actual name, but someone made a 3.5 class by that nickname that could change its alignment at will) that had changed from its actual alignment, or even an Ozodrin whose alignment now reads _Fzzz_@r9ghak. That opponent must make a will save or have any and all such abilities suppressed for one minute (be it a feat, racial ability, class feature, or whatever else), its alignment changing to that which properly reflects its actions. This also suppresses abilities that allow them to 'cheat' on their codes of conduct in a similar way.
     For example, a 'Lawful Good' Planetouched with a lavish estate who ritualistically tortures random captives to match his alignment before slaughtering them to fuel his Vow of Poverty would become Chaotic Evil, and possibly lose his Vow of Poverty if he had any of his riches on his person.

     If an effect forcibly changed a creature's alignment without their consent, this ability gains the Harmless descriptor and instantly ends the effect.

     You cannot gain this Mythos if you benefit from any such abilities yourself- this Mythos embodies integrity that such abilities bely.

Advanced Manifestations:
_And I Shall Shout Thy Secret Deeds from the Housetops:_ At the end of this Mythos' duration, the target must make another will save at a +4 bonus. If they fail, they permanently loose the class feature, racial ability, Mythos, or whatever source granted the suppressed ability. Mythos or Excellencies must be reacquired through Mythos Points, items are broken, and other abilities require an _Atonement_ spell with XP cost in order to regain.
_Break Down the Whited Wall:_ For the duration of the Mythos, victims also gain vulnerability to alignment-based damage.

----------


## DracoDei

> So, I had an idea for what could be either an Agios or an Anakitos Mythos- mainly, because there seem to be a lot more options in Mythos for evil and/or morally grey characters than for good ones- even the Anakitos seems more geared toward the 'Lawful Stick-in-the-Mud' version of Paladins than actually Good, and the Kreikiri, Dinyomi, Jagannatha, Taramach, Epifovian and the like all have abilities that either involve outright torture and murder or have massive amounts of collateral damage- the only Good-aligned abilities that come to mind are for the Agios, or the Dinyomi's "You can do horrible, horrible, evil things but still count as good because cynicism" Mythos.


Well, the Phileotheysia is most easy to roleplay as a Good character, and at least one of mythoi has options that depend on your Good/Neutral/Evil alignment. Not to mention it does stuff with alignments, from adding typing to attacks (both its own and that of allies depending on the mythos in question) to detecting them.

None of which says it can't be played as a Lawful Evil character with some thought and Chaotic Evil merely requires that you desire Evil so much you are willing to take a supporting role if that is what advances it the most and have a few people whose Evil you admire enough to not betray them... at least as long as your respect for their Evil deeds remains.  Of course, looking at your mythos, I don't think there is anything that makes it any better for a given alignment to use  than any other in theory... in practice "Good mechanically, Evil by actions" might be more common than the reverse.

Don't know if what I said about the Phileotheysia is in the direction you were hoping to see more of?



> So, to inject some Idealism into the mix, I present:
> 
> *Hypocrisy Revealing Light of Reckoning*
> Legendary
> Prerequisites: Special, see text
> 
>      It is well known among clerics, outsiders, and powerful individuals in general that Good and Evil are more than just a label. Mystical forces in and around the planes align themselves to morality and ethics just as people do. Angels and Devils have Good and Evil magic in their very essences, and many spells react to it so as to banish, repel, or control them.
>      You, however, have come to a deeper realization; these mystical forces are not what makes up morality either. Good and evil are not a set of opposed schools of magic, and certainly not a mortal construction, but a natural and inevitable, inescapable consequence of sapience that existed in and of itself the instant the Empyrian had another entity to speak to. Not even an Outer God can make it Right to murder the innocent, nor make it Wrong to give kindness and selflessness to those around you. Many wielders of tales and stories seem to disagree, but you can prove them wrong.
> 
> <SNIP>


As a proponent of absolute morality, I heartily approve of this.

----------


## Gideon Falcon

Yeah, the concept just really appealed to me- kinda like Dr Strange forcing Dormamu to undergo normal mortal time in order to defeat him, this lets you force Outer Gods, Eldritch Horrors, and the various Mythos-enabled morality cheaters to confront the true balance and weight of their actions.
     Another idea I've got is a Taramach Mythos that lets you count actions against your alignment as attacks against you for things like Retribution Will Follow, and grants bonus alignment damage in a Rage- a manifestation could then allow you to be more merciful to enemies, with fluff about how your will is strong enough to temper the Monster to your own cause- becoming an embodiment of righteous fury and moral outrage rather than mere senseless destruction.

     In other news, I do have a few ideas for Syntrofos Mythos, quite a few Umbramendax ones (including adaptations of the 5e Adversary), and a crap-ton of Magios ideas. Given the inactivity of their respective threads, I'll probably just have to post them here, if anywhere.

BTW, DracoDei, what were the rules of higher-level Mythos users swapping Mythos and excellency slots again? The ones you referenced in the hyper-epic campaign?

----------


## Lanth Sor

> Yeah, the concept just really appealed to me- kinda like Dr Strange forcing Dormamu to undergo normal mortal time in order to defeat him, this lets you force Outer Gods, Eldritch Horrors, and the various Mythos-enabled morality cheaters to confront the true balance and weight of their actions.
>      Another idea I've got is a Taramach Mythos that lets you count actions against your alignment as attacks against you for things like Retribution Will Follow, and grants bonus alignment damage in a Rage- a manifestation could then allow you to be more merciful to enemies, with fluff about how your will is strong enough to temper the Monster to your own cause- becoming an embodiment of righteous fury and moral outrage rather than mere senseless destruction.
> 
>      In other news, I do have a few ideas for Syntrofos Mythos, quite a few Umbramendax ones (including adaptations of the 5e Adversary), and a crap-ton of Magios ideas. Given the inactivity of their respective threads, I'll probably just have to post them here, if anywhere.
> 
> BTW, DracoDei, what were the rules of higher-level Mythos users swapping Mythos and excellency slots again? The ones you referenced in the hyper-epic campaign?


I really like the idea, I'll add it to the Agios, and I can necro the threads. Umbramandax is abandoned.

----------


## Tacitus

> BTW, DracoDei, what were the rules of higher-level Mythos users swapping Mythos and excellency slots again? The ones you referenced in the hyper-epic campaign?


Was it this?
-1 Tier: One Mythos or 3 Manifestations or 1 Excellency
-2 Tiers: 2 Mythos or 5 Manifestations or 2 Excellencies
-3 Tiers: 3 Mythos or 7 Manifestations or 3 Excellencies
-4 Tiers: 4 Mythos or 9 Manifestations or 4 Excellencies

I've seen another that was 0/1/2/3, 1/3/5/7, 0/1/2/3 as well for a lower exchange rate.

----------


## DracoDei

I assume the Teramach alignment thing would give all your damage that alignment, to help out with DR, among its other benefits?



> Was it this?
> -1 Tier: One Mythos or 3 Manifestations or 1 Excellency
> -2 Tiers: 2 Mythos or 5 Manifestations or 2 Excellencies
> -3 Tiers: 3 Mythos or 7 Manifestations or 3 Excellencies
> -4 Tiers: 4 Mythos or 9 Manifestations or 4 Excellencies
> 
> I've seen another that was 0/1/2/3, 1/3/5/7, 0/1/2/3 as well for a lower exchange rate.


That looks right.

----------


## Corwin Icewolf

I'm still interested in seeing 3.5 mythos. Mainly because it can be more easily converted to pathfinder which is my main system, but still. 

And I've had a couple of ideas lately for mythos classes. One would probably be called prodotis, and banner characters would be characters whose entire arc revolved around betrayal(so kreia(kotor 2), Zuko(avatar), sasuke uchiha maybe(Naruto). Class will be stealthy, probably more assassin than rogue and some of the mythos will do funny things to alignment. This is most of what I've decided on.

I'm seeing this one having a Bellator like origin, but being focused on internal and psychological conflict where the Bellator is based on external conflict. 

Another one I'm thinking about would be a crazy genius item maker. I think there's one already but it felt more Tony stark, where this guy would be more, uh... willy Wonka I suppose. Not "I know all the things to make this," but "I'm so crazy, I don't know it's impossible to make this." And probably more art based than science based.

----------


## God_of_Awesome

Is this dead? I'd be sad to see this dead. I only just registered just to post on here and talk about the campaign that I'm in where I convinced everyone to play a Mythos class.

----------


## Xefas

> Is this dead? I'd be sad to see this dead. I only just registered just to post on here and talk about the campaign that I'm in where I convinced everyone to play a Mythos class.


How's it going so far?

----------


## Gideon Falcon

By the way, Xefas, there's a couple references in the Olethrofex to Mythos that don't seem to be there, like something about becoming a mausoleum- do you remember any of those ideas? I know you won't have them written down, what with the whole lost info thing.

----------


## God_of_Awesome

> How's it going so far?


So far, we only had a character creation session. 3.5, we're all playing bastard sons of the king (except the Anakitos, he's a legitimate son) on a diplomatic envoy.

The DM is a friend of a friend, and I've talked with him before. He gave his okay for me to play a Teramach before hand and dropped hints at the table that an over powered class may prove necessary.

I've espoused this system to the others before, so our regular DM asks to see the Anakitos. Next thing you know, my friend is looking through the Umbramandax, another picked up the Bellator. I was considering going Bellator but decided we didn't need two.

We decided to go all melee, all the time, nothing too castery, like the Kathodos or Olethrofex. One guy was gonna pick the psyblade, but hearing everyone go on about how powerful these classes are convinced him to go Jaganatha.

I pointed out the Amalgamate feats as well. The Anakitos decided to "dip" Bellator with it and I decided to "dip" Jaganatha so I can "MAIM! KILL! *BURN!*"

----------


## Xefas

> By the way, Xefas, there's a couple references in the Olethrofex to Mythos that don't seem to be there, like something about becoming a mausoleum- do you remember any of those ideas? I know you won't have them written down, what with the whole lost info thing.


Actually, if everything goes according to plan, I should have my new computer up and running some time in the next few weeks. Once it's operational, I can plug in my old harddrives and see if there's any damage. Hopefully none. 

IIRC, the Mythos you're referring to is Monolithic Necropolis Heart. It was meant to transform the character into an expression of the Abomination's true form, a graveyard-city populated by undead. It's permanent, of course, with the advantage of making you extra tough. It's hard to attack a city; especially one that's already dead. The locus of your necromantic energy, your Necropolis Heart, has to be found and slain in order to kill you (probably with some consecration magic thrown in). It would also let you generate and control massive groups of undead.

Downside? You're a collection of buildings. You need to control those undead in order to get stuff done. Or use your Reliquary (via Death-Mourning Phylactery Fission) to appoint a Lich King Vampire Queen Fat Zombie Seneschal mythical representative of some description, who could be mind broken, taken over, and granted your more body-requiring Mythos (so they don't go to waste). 

I think I may have also wanted some sort of interaction with Shepherd-and-King Zion Construction to turn the character into their own Ravenloft or Innistrad or what-have-you. Without Monolithic Necropolis Heart, that Mythos was just about creating an afterlife-plane under your control.




> on a diplomatic envoy


What could go wrong? =P

That sounds like a lot of fun. I'd love to hear how it goes.

----------


## God_of_Awesome

> What could go wrong? =P
> 
> That sounds like a lot of fun. I'd love to hear how it goes.


Mind you, only the Anakito and Umbremandex are meant to engage in diplomacy. The Jaganatha, the Bellator and myself, the Teramach, are meant to murder anything and everything that looks at them funny.

----------


## Sgt. Cookie

*Spoiler*
Show





What could this be? Cross my palm with silver and you just might find out...


(And, before you ask, the class will do a little bit of the whole "chooser of the one" thing,hence the inclusion of The Outsider, but the class will focus more on the "look, but don't touch TOO much" side of things.)

----------


## Gideon Falcon

That's great! We'll keep our fingers crossed, and look forward to seeing the lost archives.

A Mythic Seer could be quite interesting, too. Watching with interest.

----------


## God_of_Awesome

Besides the game I managed to hijack into a Mythos game, the other thing I'd out myself for was something brought up earlier, crossposted from The Onyx Path after being crossposted from TVTropes, and that was The Narrative Titans (I apparently cannot post links yet because I signed-up to post here), a piece of lore I made for a shared setting superhero RP, even more inspired and taken from Xefas's Mythos than it was from Exalted, though I take it from that too.

The only new "twist" that stands out to me is that I made The Sun, here called The Light(/The Hero/The King), as a fellow Titan rather than a separate type of entity.

I also took the Jagganatha and made him into a superhero, the Anakitos into a supervillain, the Terramach into a brutal-vigilante-turned-Sealed-Evil-In-A-Can and the Bellator (wielding a Syntrofos) into an anti-villain fighting to retake her homeland.

----------


## Mechanix

Hi there.

So, the Swordbearer class was brought to my attention today, and I had thoughts about it, which I was asked to put into a review. And so I did.

Prelude to explore my own biases and all: I hadn't played a 3.5 Mythos class, but I knew of them and had read them, and about them from enthusiastic players. I am an avid Exalted fan and appreciate the references in your work. I generally really like the idea of martial characters developing into mythical figures (a theme which features in some of my Barbarian homebrew). I'm also a Barbarian player in a West Marches-styled game, which has featured its fair share of pitched battles and dealing with kingdoms and armies.

I'm going to give you my opinion upfront so as to avoid weaseling: I do not think the Swordbearer _works_. It is a far cry from 3.5 Mythos classes and has a number of issues and problematic assumptions tied into its design. 

Of course I see from a quick browsing of this thread that people have been playing it with some success, and I have not looked in depth at the other 5e Mythos classes, only the Swordbearer, which will be the scope of this post. So, maybe I'm wrong, etc. 

Anyway.

*
1) Balance*

Before I even got to the class itself, I was struck by your paragraph about level equivalents and which class to include in groups. I don't object by default to the idea of a 10-level class whose first level is equivalent to lv 11 of other class. However, it causes issues in that this class can only be played in games that start at lv 11 or above, which is extremely limiting of its ability to get actual play - you're not being kind to your fans, is what I'm saying. Of course, an alternative would be to play a Fighter up until mid-levels, and then turn your lv 11 Fighter into a lv 1 Swordbearer.

The problem, of course, is the downgrade in power you'll suffer doing so. 

Bear with me here as I progress to my main point. A lv 1 Swordbearer is no match for a lv 11 Fighter or Barbarian (let alone Paladin) in single combat (I think I could take one with my lv 9 Barbarian), but that doesn't necessarily mean much.* Plenty of classes are terrible match-ups for one another; a Bard isn't supposed to win a stand-up fight against a Paladin. But it does make the emphasis on "don't play this in the same game as a Fighter" kind of odd.

*Im fully willing to test this out and see if Im wrong, I love white room combat.

Now, even as an inferior 1v1 combattant, the Swordbearer has plentiful utility in a typical adventure compared to other Warriors, because it is almost resources-free. It has almost no expendable resources aside from HP, so as long as the heals keep coming it can power through encounters without needing rests. 

Which is its core problem.

The Swordbearer has no_ tactical choices_. It has chargen variance - you pick from several abilities - and every time it hits someone it gets to pick from four rider effects. It has a ton of passive bonuses, and plenty of fun non-combat abilities. I like how it sizes up an opponent, affects large-scale battles and so on. But with the exception of its Ultimate Technique, at no point in an encounter does it ever have to ask itself: "Of the resources available to me, which is worth spending here and now to gain an advantage?" It is static all through the day. It attacks two times per turn, then three times, picks one of four effects on every hit,* and when encountering one specific ranged threat automatically uses its answer. While everyone expends their resources, he just keeps on trucking.

*against any enemy whom you expect to survive this round, such as mid-bosses and bosses, these options aren't so much choices as they are "hit the ridiculously powerful Disadvantage effect until they fail their save, then add damage or accuracy depending whether they're high-AC or high-HP."

Wait, that sounds familiar...

Oh. It's the 3.5 Fighter. A much more powerful version thereof, certainly, but the core design is the same. You have loads of passive bonuses and do the same thing all the time in combat. You have no tactics. You make no meaningful choices. You do not burn or sacrifice assets. You're just a static beatstick.

You are, amazingly enough, more boring than a Champion. The Champion at least gets to choose when to use Action Surge, Indomitable and Second Wind. You outpace the Champion's tactical depth at lv 8, which is_ level 18_ for a normal adventuring group, and meanwhile the Battle Master is over there cackling as he adapts his fighting style to whatever opponent he faces by dipping into his bag of Superiority Dice and choosing which maneuver he wants to apply this time. The Paladin is faaaar over there crossing the horizon, you already can't see her anymore.

I am going to go one step further. This class is designed to_ negate choices_. You don't have good Dexterity? It's fine, you still have good Initiative. You are a Dexterity-based character? It's fine, you can still use a greataxe. You don't have the Strength to use the heaviest armor? It's fine, just wear nothing, you still have excellent AC. Oh, and your starting start spread lets you rock at all the skills that matter to you. 

You don't make hard choices. You don't sacrifice effectiveness somewhere to be good somewhere else. You are good at everything, whatever you do; and so, you are bland. 

You are an old-school Fighter.

So. This is not good. 
*
2) Reality Warping*

By now you're probably thinking that I am unfair because the Swordbearer actually has a lot of ability to make choices and warp the narrative through a set of Inspiration-based abilities that let them make narrative authorial statements. And this is true. It doesn't apply in _combat_, so it doesn't affect point 1), but it is true nonetheless.

My issue is that this is a mechanic only the Mythos class has, when it sounds like a game assumption. It's something either no one should have, or everyone. As it stands, if your Swordbearer is palling around with a Wizard and a Druid, the two casters have actual magic to perform various utility effects outside combat, and the Swordbearer... Conjures things by happenstance. He sounds like a reality warper rather than a mythic hero, because it's an exclusive mechanic in mixed groups. In a Mythos-only group, I'm sure it works fine. But even in the suggested "Mythos and Casters" mixed group it just feels off.

The scope of your reality warping is also unclear. It can conjure a shiv inside a prison, but not a greatsword. It can conjure a fencing school to shelter you for the night. Can it conjure an army? Can it conjure a fencing school that you _then_ turn into an army? Can you remotely negate encounters without fighting them by cleverly leveraging your declarations? 

Anyway, I don't want to come down too hard on this ability. It's actually pretty cool. Its core issue is that it's entirely dependant on DM arbitration of Inspiration. I played D&D for an entire year and got Inspiration literally once. If the DM gives you tons of Inspiration, you're rewriting the setting like some mad psychic mutant, if he doesn't you do it once a day through Iron Resonance, which is actually probably more sensible for everyone's sanity. 

*
3) But I Can Kill An Army*

Indeed, the Swordbearer has an incredible edge over any core martial class: its ability to deal with mooks, even armies of them, like they are nothing to him. 

There are a few problems with this.

The first problem is that you are treating a core feature of 5e's design as an annoying obstacle to be overcome. The _point_ of 5e encounter design is that goblins can be a threat to high-level players by using numbers and tactics. This is convenient because it allows a GM to maintain a more coherent setting instead of having enemies eventually become irrelevant and needing to be replaced by a new class of creature - if your campaign is about a goblinoid army invading the land, you can be fighting goblins at lv 1, and you can progress through goblins, bugbears, hobgoblins, their elites and their pet monsters and their allies, while there still being goblinoid mooks who can threaten you through attrition - instead of the DM having to go "well, you're all too high-level now, so the goblins just sort of disappear and we're moving to fight Yuan-Ti since they have a higher Challenge baseline."

You're reintroducing this into the game, which is not great. It's essentially backdooring solved 3.5 issues into the game. With a Mythos class in the mix, lower-level opponents exist now only as a feel-good system for showing what a badass you are, which clearly has its place, but... 

Okay, here's the thing. This is D&D. You don't fight armies. Even if you think you do, you don't.

I am not going to presume as to how everyone runs their game - maybe some people actually do model five hundred CR 1/4 soldiers separately, rolling their actions in turn. These people are madmen. The core of the game is designed to model small unit tactics combat, and you're taking a wrench to it to try and make it Sauron fighting off an army in the LotR intro. 

Here's how I've seen adventurers act in army-scale battle in D&D games:
1) The adventurers are fighting standard-sized groups of opponent. The battle around them is modelled as shifting environmental conditions, affected by the adventurer's success in killing the Elite Bugbear Guard or finding and dispatching the Wizard Strategist. 
2) The adventurers are actually taking on 500 soldiers, and these soldiers are modelled as a single opponent with a high Challenge rating. 

None of these situations are helped in any way by mook-clearing tactics. The first because you never actually encounter hundreds of low-CR opponents in the field, the second because the army is actually modeled as a high-CR opponent. 

You're fixing a problem that doesn't exist, except for a special class of DMs who apparently don't see modeling hundreds of separate opponents as a logistical nightmare that will eat their souls. 
*
4) Core Design*

This is the part where I'm kind of a jerk because I have to rapid-fire on several issues. Sorry. 

Let's go from the top down.



> Saving Throws: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence


No. I don't care that your class is a mythical combattant. The lv 20 Wizard right over there summoning demons from the netherworld and making them cry uncle has the same saves as everyone else - one strong, one weak, plus one if he took Resilient (Ability). This isn't a matter of balance or being powerful and mythical, it's core design to the game. You get a strong save, and a weak save, and sometimes you have a miraculous high-end feature giving you more, like the Rogue or the Monk. 



> If the attack is successful, the target must make a (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution; your choice) saving throw or take Disadvantage on all attack rolls against you until the beginning of your next turn. During this time, you also have Advantage on saving throws that the target's abilities require you to roll.


This is absurdly powerful in the worst of ways. The "pick the save" part is just... Bad. And the power is both completely overwhelming, and completely generic. It is The Best Debuff and that's it. You will want to use this on every turn on every significant opponent, and so now all encounters read "this character has disadvantage on all attacks" and it's just... No. 



> Wing-Clipping Shot


This part interests me because it's not a bad ability per se, it just reflects an overall design issue. Flying enemies are annoying, every melee fighter knows that. Adventurers go through many means to deal with flying enemies; they use ranged attacks, they try to restrict the fight to a limited location, they endow themselves with the power of flight to pursue them. They resort to tactics.

The Swordbearer says, "you're not flying anymore."

It'd be fine if the effect was restricted in duration, because then the proned dragon has to make the choice of staying on the ground whacking everyone with tail and claw, or flying again to escape melee but suffering AoOs in the process. 

But as it is, the Swordbearer actively makes combat more boring.



> When a creature begins casting a spell within Normal Range (as in, not Long Range) of the weapon you wish to use, you may spend your Reaction to make a ranged attack against them. If the attack hits, the target must make a Constitution saving throw (DC = 1/2 damage taken, or 10; whichever is higher) or lose the spell.


"Lose the spell" is not a system term. You need to be explicit as to how exactly this works, most notably telling us if the spell slot that would have been used to cast it is also lost. 

And again, we're back to making the game more bland, because now enemy casters don't get to cast. That'll show that evil wizard. 




> Ultimate Technique


I really like the concept of "ultimate techniques," and have tried designing them for subclasses before.

But here your choices include a weaker action surge, another weaker action surge, a weaker lightning bolt, and the Good One. It's not great.
*
5) The Tone
*
This is probably your biggest problem.

Of the people whom I have shown this homebrew before working on this review, most of them were already having misgivings about the class before ever getting to its mechanics. The tone is, quite honestly, insufferable: it mocks low-level adventures, it disparages martial classes while saying "casters are fine," and it begs for a fundamentally narrative mechanic supposed to occasionally reward good roleplay because it needs it to power its class features. In fluff and description, it generally tries too hard.

Like, seriously...




> Based on my homebrew 3.5e work of the same name, 5e Mythos is intended to add a selection of classes to the game that allow players to begin their story at a relatively high level of power, and grow into capabilities that allow them to alter the course of the world without using standard D&D magic and spells. They are not meant to be the errand-folk of wizards and kings, cleaning the rats from cellars and the dire rats from tombs in exchange for a pouch of coins, a healing potion, and pat on the head. They should make goals for themselves, crush their opposition, and deal with the consequences of power.


 Here are a couple things that happened in my current D&D game. At lv 3-4, before I got my first Extra Attack, I was helping depose a Queen and reinstating the rightful Prince on his throne. At lv 6, I duelled a devil, killed a noble demon, and our Paladins won the favor of the Angel of Wrath. With all but one character below lv 10, we're currently among the linchpins of a siege involving two armies of 5,000 soldiers each. I'm not taking part in it because my lv 9 character died duelling the commander in chief of the entire army, who has something like 200+ hp, regeneration 10 hp/turn and can cast Destructive Wave, and I lasted ten rounds and brought him down to bloodied. 

Meanwhile, the Swordbearer is supposedly sitting in the sideline, waiting for the group to get two more levels so he can come in and things can be "fair." 

My experience of 5e D&D is that we have to struggle to get casters into the group because everyone loves Battle Masters and Paladins. Out of a 20-person pool we use to form 5-men parties, people are fighting over our single underleveled wizard and our two clerics because this is Fifth Edition now, and Martials Are Cool.

This makes the tone of the Swordbearer's post incredibly frustrating to read. I gave it to people who hadn't followed the 3.5 Mythos, and they were already ready to dismiss the entire class on its introduction alone.

It doesn't have to be this way. I love Exalted, and I love mythical fighters.

It's just that in 5e, a mythical fighter who can shape the world with its grandiose deeds is called... A high-level Fighter. Straight from the core.

And, like, one petty addition. "Myth" and "Mythos" I can get behind. But "Anthol"? I don't know where that's from. A friend dug around to find out and the only thing they found was an abreviation for "anthology," which comes from a French word for "collection of flowers." Where did you dig that up?
*
6) Conclusion*

The Swordbearer's ability to shape the narrative of play by introducing facts is its greatest, and coolest feature. The class is also entirely reliant on this ability to actually feel fun and affect play, because in combat it's kind of dull. 

And that's the problem, really. It tries too hard. Normal groups can use skills, spells, roleplays, and the calculated application of overwhelming violence to bring down kingdoms, build new ones, shape the land, and raise armies. The Swordbearer is written like it is afraid it can't do that with its actual abilities, so it gets to fiat these things into existence. It skips the middle-man because then there could be failure.

And so, paradoxically, it feels underwhelming.

That's my review, and thanks for reading so far. I'm sorry I couldn't be more enthusiastic about this class.

----------


## Imrix.

> My experience of 5e D&D is that we have to struggle to get casters into the group because everyone loves Battle Masters and Paladins. Out of a 20-person pool we use to form 5-men parties, people are fighting over our single underleveled wizard and our two clerics because this is Fifth Edition now, and Martials Are Cool.


This deserves emphasis, I'm afraid. Comments like "... a Fighter's greatest achievement of learning to hit a bugbear slightly harder." give me the impression Xefas is still working off of a distinctly 3.5 esque mindset where caster supremacy is undeniable and pure martial classes are both underpowered and dull as dishwater. But that's not the case in 5e. Martial classes are powerful and versatile now. They can Do Things. And a Swordbearer... kind of can't, sadly.

----------


## Xefas

Alright, so, Mechanix, I did read your whole post. I'm not going to respond to the whole thing, point by point, or anything, not because I don't want to, but just because I quite literally don't have the time to get everything done that I want to get done in the day. I feel bad about that, because you clearly put a lot of time into writing it. But I did read it.

I will say this, and hopefully it will suffice for now. Since finishing the Adversary, I've had a '2.0' revision of the 5e Mythos stuff in mind, and partially in writing, that I just haven't had time to get done. If it ever comes to fruition, I think it will address some of your concerns. Others, it may not, not because I think you're incorrect about anything, but because I think I have a different framing in mind for the kind of game I'd put these classes to use in. 

Of additional note:




> *Im fully willing to test this out and see if Im wrong, I love white room combat.


This may actually be helpful to me in the making of the next revision, if you'd like to do that.

edit:



> And, like, one petty addition. "Myth" and "Mythos" I can get behind. But "Anthol"? I don't know where that's from. A friend dug around to find out and the only thing they found was an abreviation for "anthology," which comes from a French word for "collection of flowers." Where did you dig that up?


It's meant as an abbreviated form of Anthology, which is a collection of stories (or poems, songs, etc).

----------


## Crumplepunch

> It's meant as an abbreviated form of Anthology, which is a collection of stories (or poems, songs, etc).


As the friend in question who did the looking up, I should clarify.  I assumed you meant anthol as an abbreviation of anthology, I was just sharing the etymology of the Greek _anthologia,_ meaning a flower collection, from _anthos_ (flower) and _legein_ (to gather).  This was transmitted through medieval French and eventually made its way to its modern English definition after a transitional period of meaning a collection of flower pressings.

I know this is a popular long time homebrew and I don't want to suggest messing too heavily with a successful formula, but if you are by any chance in the market for a replacement word I suggest "agonist".  The modern word refers to one who engages in a struggle, the Greek root refers more directly to an athlete or champion, and it is also the root word of many derived terms for characters who hold narrative focus (protagonist, deuteragonist, antagonist, etc).

----------


## Mechanix

> Alright, so, Mechanix, I did read your whole post. I'm not going to respond to the whole thing, point by point, or anything, not because I don't want to, but just because I quite literally don't have the time to get everything done that I want to get done in the day. I feel bad about that, because you clearly put a lot of time into writing it. But I did read it.
> 
> I will say this, and hopefully it will suffice for now. Since finishing the Adversary, I've had a '2.0' revision of the 5e Mythos stuff in mind, and partially in writing, that I just haven't had time to get done. If it ever comes to fruition, I think it will address some of your concerns. Others, it may not, not because I think you're incorrect about anything, but because I think I have a different framing in mind for the kind of game I'd put these classes to use in.


Well, thanks for reading, anyway. Happy to hear about your 2.0 and I hope my comments can be at least a little bit helpful there.



> Of additional note:
> 
> 
> 
> This may actually be helpful to me in the making of the next revision, if you'd like to do that.


Sure thing.






> It's meant as an abbreviated form of Anthology, which is a collection of stories (or poems, songs, etc).


I'm aware, it's just a weird choice of term for a person, which doesn't really pan out etymologically.

----------


## PeacefulOak

I think part of what is being missed/lost here is one of the core concepts of the Mythos system and mythology.  The Titans, from whom the mythos classes are derived, are narrative concepts. The Monster - a concept of pure violence. The Sun - a concept of conquest and pride. And so on and so forth.  Mortals who access some part of a Titan's power, whether by practice (class) or by bloodline (race feats), become a part of that narrative, contributing to the nature and power of the Titan.

Personally, I feel that the term Anthol has a good relation to the overall concept of the Mythos setting.

----------


## Inevitability

Still considering making that mentor-like class (think Gandalf, Donnie Darko's Frank, or Merlin), but somewhat at a loss for what kind of features to give it.

Wisdom-based features are pretty obviously a must, maybe with some secondary intelligence and charisma, but I'm having trouble differentiating it from the various commander Mythos classes already out there. I want this class to guide, not lead, if that makes sense.

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## Primal Fury

> Still considering making that mentor-like class (think Gandalf, Donnie Darko's Frank, or Merlin), but somewhat at a loss for what kind of features to give it.
> 
> Wisdom-based features are pretty obviously a must, maybe with some secondary intelligence and charisma, but I'm having trouble differentiating it from the various commander Mythos classes already out there. I want this class to guide, not lead, if that makes sense.


What system were you planning on using? I had some ideas concerning a Mythic Mentor a while ago, but that was for 3.t and Pathfinder.

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## Inevitability

> What system were you planning on using? I had some ideas concerning a Mythic Mentor a while ago, but that was for 3.t and Pathfinder.


3.5, most likely. The 5e design is pretty neat, but I want it to work with the majority of the material that's already out here.

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## Primal Fury

Alright then, this might work. One of the core abilities was the use of Teamwork Feats. Usually, these types of feats require those who wish to use them to take them together; the Daskalos waived this requirement, allowing him/her to grant their allies the use of any teamwork feat they had without needing to have it themselves.

They also granted a scaling bonus to Aid Other actions. I think it was... Hey, I found it. Have a look.




> *Guiding Light:* The Lodestar had no interest in achieving primacy over the other gods. His only concern was helping his brethren improve their mastery over their respective purviews; in truth, he was already far too old to be bothered with anything else. This propensity for assisting others manifests as a change in how your Aid Other actions work. Rather than simply adding +2 to an allies attack roll or skill check, you make the same roll using your own bonuses and/or penalties. If your roll would have succeeded, you add +1d4 bonus to all to your ally's attack or skill check for each tier of the Lodestar's Mythos that you have access to (+1d4 for Exceptional, +2d4 for Fantastic, etc); if your roll would have failed, then you simply add the normal +2. When improving an allies AC, add the normal +2, plus an additional +2 for each tier of the Lodestar's Mythos you have access to. Additionally, for every age category you are beyond your ally, you grant them an additional +1 bonus with Aid Other actions. It must be noted that this is consistent across all races. A young elf will benefit from an elderly human's wisdom; the real-world experience of the latter trumps the likely limited experience of the former, despite the fifty year difference between the two. This ability only uses age modifiers that would actually cause you to take penalties, such as those listed in the Player's Handbook, not other age modifiers entirely dependent upon the creature's race, such as draconic age categories.
> 
> Additionally, any Teamwork Feats you possess no longer require an ally to have them in order to reap their benefits. For example, if you possess the Back to Back feat, you and an adjacent ally benefit from the +2 bonus to AC against flanking opponents without your ally needing to possess the feat as well.

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## Inevitability

Ooooo, nice! You mind if I use these abilities, perhaps with some slight tweaking?

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## Primal Fury

It's all yours.

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## Xefas

I dunno how many of you guys live in Texas, but I'm going to be at GaMExpo in San Antonio during November 4th and 5th.

I don't know much about the convention itself, other than that (1) it's roleplaying and board game focused, (2) it's within reasonable driving distance, (3) I can get off work that weekend. But that's enough for me. I assume there's a chance it will totally blow, but I'm willing to take that chance.

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## Gideon Falcon

Wait a minute... Am I crazy, or did you change the style of the table in the Bellator post?

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## Xefas

> Wait a minute... Am I crazy, or did you change the style of the table in the Bellator post?


Oh? Huh. You're right! I forgot about that.

I guess that was around the time of the table code changes on the forum. I started experimenting with class-customized table graphics ((1) (2) (3)) with a background picture of a "ninth" character inspiration, shopped with a class-related color scheme.

Unfortunately, they turned out to be quite a chore to read. I was messing around with doing more generic ones with maybe a flair here or there, and I suppose I left a generic one up after shelving the idea. I think if I had more experience with photoshop, I might be able to make the idea workable. But I've no real understanding of the program. I just got an old version for cheap back when I was in school.

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## TraceChaos

Hey, Xefas, any word on recovering stuff off your old harddrive? There are several classes I still hope to see you post or finish, since I'm a huge fan of your work.

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## Xefas

> Hey, Xefas, any word on recovering stuff off your old harddrive? There are several classes I still hope to see you post or finish, since I'm a huge fan of your work.


Here's some Epistemian.

Exceptional
*Spoiler*
Show


*Arbitrary Matter Reclamation*
*Prerequisite:* -

Mortal creatures are simple combinations of matter and energy. Positive energy in the soul, elemental fire in its heat and blood, elemental air in its mind and lungs, and so on, woven together by the systems of the Great Wheel to create life. But these systems are themselves constructs of titanic narrative, arbitrary strands of story-stuff repurposed by ambitious gods and immortals, themselves only creatures born of chance from motes of chaos and order. 

Complex on the surface, all physical things are just inanimate building blocks, clinging to each other by pure coincidence, fooling themselves into believing they are some greater, independent _self_. With a glance and an effort of focused will, you allow a creature or object within [(1/2 class level + intelligence modifier) x 10ft] to ignore the lies of its defined shape and realize its true oneness with the empty, aimless ebb and flow of the universe. It must make a Fortitude save. On a failed save, it takes (1d4 per class level) damage, as random chunks of its form are suddenly missing. (Creatures and objects usually die or cease being functional long before their entire form is disintegrated, though this ability may continue to be used on the resulting corpse or broken pieces in order to disintegrate it completely.)

Even though this assault has no obvious visual indicators originating from you, because your own raw will must touch them, creatures are aware of where the aggression came from, though they do not necessarily understand its nature.

(Note that this ability deals damage, so is reduced by Hardness, but is not a weapon or attack, so is not reduced by Damage Reduction.)

*Arcanospectrum Optical Enhancement*
*Prerequisite:* 1 rank in the Spot skill

All things of the Great Wheel were created from primal chaos and repurposed, mutilated titanic narrative, from stones and leaves to light and fire to magic and morality. Some things were made more subtle and esoteric than others, but all are, in the end, the same particles given different configurations. An eye that can see _can see all_. It is only a matter of reduced ignorance.

As a swift action, you can focus your eyes to a higher plane of sight, or unfocus them back to normal viewing.

While using this heightened vision, you see magical auras burning around functioning spell workings and magic items similar to the ones visualized by a fully focused _Detect Magic_ spell, as well as the lingering auras of bygone spells and broken items. You need not spend time studying these auras or utilizing Spellcraft checks to determine their nature; they are as plain to you as any physical feature of the world. For example, while others may glance over a _Broom of Flying_ in a casual search, seeing only a broom, the moment you lay eyes on such an item, the Moderate Aura of Transmutation that it carries is as obvious as the wood it's made of. To others, a powerful adventurer may simply appear to be a surly homeless person wandering down the street with an uncouth number of deadly weapons jammed into their backpack, but their ungodly horde of magic items crammed into a single person-sized space would shine like a brilliant wintermas tree to _your_ eyes.

One notable caveat: while magical invisibility is rendered largely useless against you, as you are able to see the creature (or object) shaped aura of magical (usually Illusion) energy cloaking the hidden being (or thing), mundane forms of stealth can still be effective. A clever enough rogue could, potentially, keep their +1 Leather Armor's faint abjuration aura out of sight as they skulk around you. However, you gain a +5 circumstance bonus on Spot checks to notice things wreathed in a magical aura, or a +5 circumstance bonus on Search checks for a concerted effort to find something (like quickly digging through a clerk's desk for the one document with an _Arcane Mark_ on it).

In addition to its magic-detecting properties, your heightened sight is also capable of seeing the lingering motes of moral and ethical energy that cling to beings touched by the Outer Planes. Unlike magic purpose-built to read a creature's ethos, you cannot see what alignment truly lurks in a creature's essence, only the taint of aligned energy on them. This functions similarly to a _Detect Good/Evil/Law/Chaos_ spell, save that you need not concentrate for multiple rounds to visualize alignment auras, you cannot be stunned by particularly power auras, and you are only able to detect suitable Outsiders, alignment-skewed magic items, the auras of Clerics, and similar beings with powerful aligned auras (such as Incarnates). At your groups discretion, you might be able to detect an aligned planar aura on other creatures that heavily traffick their souls with Outer Planar entities, such as a Warlock that derives their power from a Demon Lord. In all cases, you are non-magically detecting planar energy, not the subject's true morality. So, for example, a Chaotic Good Warlock that has been saddled with the power of Orcus would detect as Chaotic Evil, because it is the taint of the Demon Lord that is being detected, not the Warlock's real character. A Warlock with a Fey patron likely wouldn't ping at all, as the Fey courts largely dwell on the Prime Material Plane.

On the upside, spells such as _Undetectable Alignment_ do nothing to obscure the planar detritus you are detecting, and are thus largely inconsequential to you.

*Future-Strand Decryption Sight*
*Prerequisite:* -

When the brief flashes of insight and odd feelings of improbable success begin within an Epistemian, they often assume that they are simply very lucky individuals, benefactors of the random whims of forces or powers beyond their knowing. Or, some others believe that they have become oracles, able to see the paths of their own fate stretched out before them, manuevering themselves through the current of time.

In reality, they are seeing past the context of the physical world, very briefly, to the true underlying patterns of particles and energy and matter that underpin the universe that they see and experience. In truth, there are no unique actions. Everything that is happening has happened before and will happen again, and by using the knowledge of events that have come before, one may make predictions about that which will be. 

In an instant, a prediction is made. A potentially perfect prediction, for this is but one dynamic moment pitted against a billion _billion_ such moments and more. The only limiting factor is the imperfect brain that does the calculating.

You gain a pool of Prediction Points, with a maximum capacity equal to your Intelligence modifier. Resting for 8 hours refills the pool to its maximum. You may spend one Prediction Point to reroll any one of your Attack Rolls, Saving Throws, Skill Checks, or Ability Checks, or to force an Attack Roll aimed at you to be rerolled. The new result must be kept, even if it is worse. Only one Prediction Point may be spent per roll.

You must use a Prediction Point after the roll is made, but before you know the results of the roll.

*Advanced*
_Brain-Strain Reduction:_ Your Prediction Pool's capacity increases by 1. At 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th level, it increases by 1 again.

_Synaptic Clarity Increase:_ When you roll a new die with a Prediction Point, also roll 1d4 and add the result to the rerolled die. At 6th level, roll 2d4 instead. At 12th level, roll 3d4, and at 18th level, roll 4d4. 

_(name):_ You may use as many Prediction Points per roll as you wish, continuing to reroll undesirable results. In addition, when you reroll dice with Prediction Points, you are not forced to take the newest result; you may choose among the original result or any of the rerolled results, at your whim.

_(name):_ Every hour, you regain one point of your Prediction Pool, up to its normal maximum.

Perfected Neo-Martial Combat Katas
*Prerequisites:* -

To memorize every possibility in a conflict scenario and insert a counter-stratagem for each one of them into one's muscle memory is possible, but strenuous for a limited mind, and ultimately unnecessary. First, two broad categories may be removed. To begin, one does not need to know how to defeat maneuvers or enemies so inherently ineffective as to not prove a credible threat in the first place. Secondly, one need not waste time and effort attempting to defeat an opposition so threatening that its ultimate defeat is beyond one's physical limitations.

In the middle, there is a zone of combat involving threats that can be defeated, and require defeating. If there is a solution, a sufficiently intelligent mind can discern it. And once the solution is known, it need only be recalled and implemented. 

Through rigorous practice and repetition, you drill into your body a series of painstakingly designed martial forms and movements, associating each one with particular stimuli. At the end of your training, your body is nearly autonomous in combat, subconsciously responding to each state of the battlefield with the, ostensibly perfect, countermeasure.

Merely being in combat is no longer considered "being threatened or distracted" for you, for the purposes of whether or not you can Take 10 on a skill check, though other sources of stress may still apply.

You gain the Uncanny Dodge special quality.

When you make an attack roll with a simple weapon, you roll twice and take the best result.

*Advanced*
_Baleful Crossbow Practice:_ You incorporate special extensions into your katas for use with crossbows. After making an attack with a crossbow, you may instantly reload it, provided you have the ammunition on your person or within your reach, without an action. You may do this even if you do not have a free hand. You may add your Dexterity modifier as a bonus on damage rolls with a crossbow. 

_Instantaneous Violence Methodology:_ You gain Quick Draw and Improved Initiative as bonus feats.

_Athletic Kata Expansion:_ You gain Leap of the Heavens as a bonus feat (PHBII). You may add your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier for the purposes of your ability bonus on Climb, Jump, and Swim checks. In addition, when you Take 10 on a Balance, Climb, Jump, or Swim check, you may add your Intelligence modifier to the roll in addition to other bonuses.

_Maximized Body Utilization:_ You gain Two-Weapong Fighting as a bonus feat. While you are wielding only simple weapons, ignore two points of the penalty imposed on attacks rolls by fighting with two weapons.

*Personality Core Deactivation Mantra*
*Prerequisite:* -

Just as all thoughts, emotions are merely inanimate particles built into waves of energy and chemical signals that mortals mistake for something grand and significant. Just as thoughts can be pushed from one's mind, and memories locked away, emotions are subject to an individual's discipline, and your discipline is greater than most.

As a full-round action, you recite a mantra in your mind, and form the words into a metaphorical prison that encases one of the six fundamental emotions that manipulate your brain. The effects for each imprisoned emotion are listed below. You may only have one emotion imprisoned at a time, but you may release an imprisoned emotion as a swift action, ending the effects of its imprisonment (though requiring a new full-round action to imprison a new emotion). 

Joy. While your Joy is imprisoned, the signals that tell your brain that life is worth living cease to function, and you find no happiness or enjoyment in anything whatsoever. You do not receive morale bonuses (though you may still take morale penalties), and you are immune to any effect that relies on pleasure or elation to function, such as a _Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter_ spell. Prolonged imprisonment of this emotion tends to lead to a surplus of its opposing emotion, Sadness, causing severe depression.Trust. While your Trust is imprisoned, you lose the ability to have respect for others, or feel confident in their abilities. You cannot feel camaraderie, and no where feels wholly safe when other people are around. No one may be considered your 'Ally' (or 'friend' or similar verbage) for the purposes of effects you generate that effect allies. Effects that rely on your ability to accept someone as an ally or feel trust and friendship have no effect on you, such as a _Charm Person_ spell. However, you never take a penalty on Sense Motive checks due to wanting to believe the creature bluffing you, or any pre-existing emotional connections that might lead your judgment astray. On top of that, you gain a +5 circumstance bonus on all Sense Motive checks, as your social acuity is no longer blinded by unnecessary instincts to form amiable or lasting relationships with others. Prolonged imprisonment of this emotion tends to lead to a surplus of its opposing emotion, Hate, causing you to become cynical and misanthropic.Fear. While your Fear is imprisoned, you lose much of your sense of self-preservation, and 'potential harm or death' ceases to be a meaningful reason for you to not do something. You are immune to all fear effects. However, you take a -10 circumstance penalty on rolls to resist being goaded or challenged into doing something violent or aggressive (such as by the _Goad_ feat, or the _Knight's Challenge_ class feature of the Knight). Prolonged imprisonment of this emotion leads to a surplus of Anger, in which arrogance, over-aggression, and constant thrill-seeking follow.Sadness. While your Sadness is imprisoned, there is nothing in your mind that enforces feelings such as grief over lost things, sorrow at misfortune and suffering, hopelessness for bleak circumstances, or the remorse and guilt one feels at their own wrongdoing. Effects that rely on such feelings, such as a _Crushing Despair_ or _Sanctify The Wicked_ spell, have no effect on you. You are also unaffected by all morale penalties (though you may still benefit from morale bonuses). Prolonged imprisonment of this emotion usually leads to excessive optimism, contentment, and a sincere appreciation of life, which will probably annoy the people around you.Hate. While your Hate is imprisoned, you are separated from the parts of your mind that take satisfaction in the suffering of others, as well as those that reflexively create the heuristics that allow you to broadly categorize and stereotype groups of people into uncomplicated parcels for easier judgment and reaction. You are immune to effects that rely on your hatred or bigotry to function, such as a _Bottomless Hate_ spell. However, you take a -5 circumstance penalty on Initiative checks, as your involuntary instinct to do violence in order to protect yourself or further your goals is delayed by a split-second, unable to take the standard mental short-cuts towards devaluing the lives of others. Prolonged imprisonment of this emotion leads towards empathy and understanding for all living things, as well as constant consternation at the lack of enlightenment in others.Anger. Anger is an often misunderstood emotion, encompassing the destructive anger of Rage that leads to physical and emotional violence, as well as the constructive anger of Passion, which leads to creation and catharsis. Therefore, when you imprison your Anger, you lose both bloodlust and excitement. Effects that require these things to be within you to function, such as a _Rage_ spell, have no effect. Further, in stressful situations, you find your mind strangely clear, devoid of the need to act with urgency, and you may Take 10 on skill checks, even while being distracted by things like the threat of imminent death. However, you take a -2 penalty on damage rolls, intimidate checks, and saving throws against fear effects, as well as a -4 penalty on long-term projects that require hours or days of commitment, such as most Craft or Profession checks, Perform checks that rely on prior rehearsal, or Heal checks to provide long-term care. Prolonged imprisonment of this emotion tends to allow Fear to rule you - fear of failure and fear of not living up to your own standards or the standards of others causes you to become apathetic to things you may have one enjoyed, while fear of physical or emotional harm leads to passivity and introversion.

*Projected Thought-Energy Conversion Force*
*Prerequisite:* -

The mind is already capable of producing and manipulating energy. Electrical charges and chemical reactions surge through the brain, interpreted as thought and feeling, each mental process a massive alteration of matter at the microscopic level. The mind is power, and to truly know this is to release it, allowing one's thoughts to extrude outward and become the world around them, shaping the particles of their own being as they always did, and thereby shaping the world.

You may project brief bursts of thought-force within [(1/2 class level + intelligence modifier) x 10]ft. Each burst exerts the same amount of force as two arms from a Medium creature with a Strength score equal to your Intelligence score. However, the burst cannot be sustained - only projected in short, momentarily jabs. This can allow you to push or throw objects, pull levers, open doors, attempt to instantly break objects like doors and chests using their Break DC, and so on.

When used offensively against a creature or attended objects, your thought-force can Aid Another, Bull Rush, Disarm, Sunder, and Trip, using its effective Strength score, at its standard range, without provoking an attack of opportunity (and not allowing an opponent to do things like counter-trip on a failed trip attempt, as that would be kind of silly). It may also be used as a ranged attack that deals (1d4 + your intelligence modifier) damage. (Note that, since the force can originate from anywhere within range, you can, for example, Bull Rush a creature in any direction you choose, including towards yourself.)

All uses of this ability require the same kind of action as it would take to perform that action physically. For example, if it would take a standard action for a creature to pull a particular lever, it takes a standard action for you to pull it with your mind. If you have two attacks per round due to a high base attack bonus, you could use your thought force to deliver a Bull Rush and then a Trip, since these require only an attack-equivalent action. In most cases, if manipulating something would require longer than a full-round action (like cranking a heavy wheel, for example), you probably can't do it with your thought-force (yet). 

*Proximate Thought-Energy Conversion Force*
*Prerequisite:* -

The mind is already capable of producing and manipulating energy. Electrical charges and chemical reactions surge through the brain, interpreted as thought and feeling, each mental process a massive alteration of matter at the microscopic level. The mind is power, and to truly know this is to release it, allowing one's thoughts to extrude outward and become the world around them, shaping the particles of their own being as they always did, and thereby shaping the world.

You project a very short-range field of thought-force around yourself, which allows you to bend very close objects with your will. Most often, this is used defensively, thinking away projectiles and fields of energy as they attempt to collide with you. The armor class benefit of your Perceptive class feature ceases to be a Dodge bonus; rather, it becomes an untyped bonus, and therefore also applies to your flat-footed AC. Furthermore, when you make a Reflex saving throw, you may roll twice and take the better result; are your physical or mental reflexes more qualified to protect you?

You may also turn this power to offensive purposes, tearing apart things that you come into contact with. When used as such, your unarmed attacks deal Force damage, and deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they normally are.

*Advanced*
_Atmosphere-Regulating Daydream:_ Your thought-force passively regulates the temperature around your body, allowing you to exist comfortably in temperatures from -50 to 140 degrees fahrenheit without any protection. 

_Manufactured Carapace Safeguards:_ Your thought-force extends over your equipment. Any inanimate object you hold, up to your own size category in size and up to a light load for you in weight, and any item in one of your equipment slots (head, shoulders, feet, etc) gains additional Hardness equal to your Intelligence modifier.



Fantastic
*Spoiler*
Show


*Advanced Conflict-Equilibrium Matrices*
*Prerequisite:* The 'Perfected Neo-Martial Combat Katas' Mythos

You further refine your combat katas, and work your body into a more perfect vessel for their execution. You gain the Improved Uncanny Dodge special quality. When rolling initiative, you roll twice and may take either result.

Some of the more advanced katas require a solid foundation with which to control the flow of energy between one's self, one's environment, and one's opponent. While you have a solid surface to stand upon or brace against, with an immediate area at least as large as the space you occupy (for example, 5ft for a Medium creature, 10ft for a Large creature, etc), at least as deep as you are tall, and weighing at least as much as you do, all attack rolls made against you must be made twice, utilizing the worse result, and all damage rolls you make with simple weapons are rolled twice, and you may take either result.

*Advanced*
_Close-Quarters Crossbow Katas:_ You threaten the area around you with held crossbows as if they were melee weapons, and you may make attacks of opportunity with them, although the attacks of opportunity are ranged attacks made by firing the crossbow(s). Making ranged attacks with crossbows no longer provokes an attack of opportunity. 

_Optimized Reflexive Katas:_ You gain Combat Reflexes and Pursue (ECS) as bonus feats. However, you may forgo the action-point cost of Pursue by expending your one attack of opportunity for the turn. If you have multiple potential attacks of opportunity per turn (such as by the Combat Reflexes feat), you need only expend one of them to activate Pursue.

_Negative-Space Bridging Katas:_ When taking a 5ft step as part of a full-attack, you may move up to 10ft. You gain Run as a bonus feat.

*Fundamental Element Transmutation*
*Prerequisite:* The 'Arbitrary Matter Reclamation' Mythos

You sharpen your skill at using your will to discorporate the physicality of others. Firstly, you may use your Arbitrary Matter Reclamation Mythos to impose a Fortitude save on, and potentially damage, two different targets within range using the same action. At 10th level, you may choose three targets. At 14th level, you may choose four targets. At 18th level, you may choose five targets.

Next, instead of merely disseminating something's elemental matter into the cosmic whole, you may transmute it into another element present within the target, with varying effects as noted below. Targets composed of only one of the following elements cannot be transmuted in this way. Creatures and objects native to the Far Realm are similarly immune.

Use the following elements, unless the target is an Outsider native to the Outer Planes, with at least one alignment subtype - in which case, use the second list.

Earth. A target with a solid, physical form has some amount of elemental Earth that composes their being. Dealing damage with Arbitrary Matter Reclamation with the intention of transmuting the target into more elemental Earth causes the parts of them that would be wounded to instead change into inert stone. 
Fire. A target that produces heat from its natural life processes has some amount of elemental Fire that composes their being. Dealing damage with Arbitrary Matter Reclamation with the intention of transmuting the target into more elemental Fire causes the resulting wounds to spew a brief puff of flame and heat. Killing a creature or entirely destroying an object in this way causes them to dissolve into a rush of fire that can catch nearby flammable items on fire, and begin to spread and grow as normal fire would.
Air. A target that breathes or is light enough to float in the air of the Prime has some amount of elemental Air that composes their being. Killing a creature or entirely destroying an object with Arbitrary Matter Reclamation with the intention of transmuting the target into more elemental Air causes a strong wind that can extinguish unprotected flames (such as candles) and rustle nearby light items, as well as producing a pocket of fresh, pure, breathable air the same size as the deceased or destroying target, which quickly disperses into the space around it.
Water. A target whose body is naturally partially or wholly composed of liquid has some amount of elemental Water that composes their being. Dealing damage with Arbitrary Matter Reclamation with the intention of transmuting the target into more elemental Air causes the resulting wounds to release a trickle of pure, fresh water. Killing a creature or entirely destroying an object in this way causes them to dissolve into a mass of pure, fresh water the same volume as their previous form.
Positive Energy. A living target has some amount of Positive Energy composing their being. Dealing damage with Arbitrary Matter Reclamation with the intention of transumuting the target into more Positive Energy causes the resulting wounds to shed beautiful, scintillating light momentarily. Killing a creature or destroying an object in this way causes them to explode in a mass of positive energy that fills the space the target occupied, and an additional 5ft in every direction. Those caught in the blast are healed for 1d4 hit points, or harmed for 1d4 hit points if they are normally harmed by positive energy.
Negative Energy. An undead target, or a living target with a finite natural lifespan, has some amount of Negative Energy composing their being. Killing a creature or destroying an object with Arbitary Matter Reclamation with the intention of transmuting the target into more Negative Energy causes them to explode in a mass of negative energy that fills the space the target occupied, and an additional 5ft in every direction. Those caught in the blast are harmed for 1d4 hit points, or healed for 1d4 hit points if they are normally healed by negative energy.

For Outsiders with one or more alignment subtypes, that are native to the Outer Planes, transmuting them functions differently, because their physical form is made up of the ideological elements of the Outer Planes, rather than the physical elements of the Inner Planes.

Outsiders with two or more alignment subtypes. When you deal damage with Arbitrary Matter Reclamation, choose one of the target's alignment subtypes. They gain a number of [Chosen Alignment] Conversion Points equal to the damage dealt (for example, if the Lawful subtype is chosen, they gain Lawful Conversion Points). If an Outsider is slain such that their soulstuff returns to, and merges with, their home plane to be reconstituted (as happens with most Outsiders when they are killed away from their home plane), while they have Conversion Points for a particular alignment equal to or greater than 1/2 their maximum hit points, the spirit-stuff that constitutes their being is transmuted into a different form. They lose all alignment subtypes other than the one corresponding to their Conversion Points, and their alignment changes to match. They become a native of a different Outer Plane; one that matches their new alignment, and their soul returns to and merges with that plane instead. When they are reconstituted, they become a new entity altogether, commensurate with their new home and ideology. (For example, a Bearded Devil that is transmuted towards Law would probably merge with Mechanus, and become a low-ranking Modron upon their reintroduction to the world. Whereas transmuting Mephistopheles, Archduke of the Eighth Hell towards Law would likely cause him to become something mechanical and modron-like, though ultimately as purely unique, potent, and worldshaping as he previously was.) If an Outsider dies with multiple types of Conversion Points on them, that each exceed 1/2 their maximum hit points, they have not been tipped enough towards one extreme to be fundamentally altered. An Outsider may remove all Conversion Points from themselves by resting for 8 hours. 
Outsiders with only one alignment subtype. This process functions identically to transmuting Outsiders with two or more alignment subtypes, with the following caveat. Instead of choosing an alignment subtype to determine what form of Conversion Points you infect them with, you may only give them Neutral Conversion Points. Under the previously noted circumstances, an Outsider with Neutral Conversion Points merges with the Outlands, the True Neutral Outer Plane, and will emerge as one of its natives (a Rilmani, or something more unique).

*Improved Defensive Thought-Force Measures*
*Prerequisite:* The 'Proximate Thought-Energy Conversion Force' Mythos

Use of your thought-force has become so ingrained in your mind that it has created subconscious subroutines to project autonomic energy-canceling fields around your body, deflecting harm without your conscious will or consent. Whenever you take hit point damage, which is not being paid as a cost by one of your other abilities, reduce that damage by 5. This does not stack with Damage Reduction or Energy Resistance, but is not either of those things, and functions even in situations where they would not apply.

Further, you can create weak, but sustained, telekinetic tethers within your own space, allowing you to "hold" up to (intelligence modifier) objects light enough for you to hold in one hand by levitating them up to a few feet away from your body. Placing an item that you're holding, or mentally picking up an unattended item already in your space, into a tether is a swift action, as is transferring an item from a tether into one of your empty hands. If you have the Quick Draw feat, once per round, you may reduce one such swift action to a free action. You may deactivate any or all tethers as a free action, dropping held items to the ground.

It is possible for another creature, or other environmental circumstances, to forcibly remove an item from one of your tethers. This is as difficult as it would be for an item to be forcibly removed from the grip of one of your hands, substituting your Intelligence score in place of your Strength score. Your tether is considered to be "gripping" an item in the same way you would usually hold it with your hands, unless you've otherwise specified. (For example, there's nothing stopping you from telekinetically holding a sword by the blade, but unless you specify that you're doing so, your mind subconsciously thinks of itself as "holding" the sword by its hilt.)

You gain Deflect Arrows and Snatch Arrows as bonus feats.

If you have an unfilled telekinetic tether from this Mythos, you may use it as an "empty hand" for the purposes of the Snatch Arrows feat, grabbing projectiles out of the air and holding them for you, thereby occupying that tether. Unless you have the 'Improved Offensive Thought-Force Measures' Mythos, you cannot use your mental tethers to reflexively return-throw projectiles caught by them using the Snatch Arrows feat.

*Basic*

_Emotional Distance Literality:_ You may only learn this manifestation if you possess the "Personality Core Deactivation Mantra" Mythos. If you already know "Improved Defensive Thought-Force Measures" and only later gain "Personality Core Deactivation Mantra", you instantly receive this manifestation.

With an hour-long meditation-ritual, you may permanently externalize one of the six fundamental emotions featured in "Personality Core Deactivation Mantra". This creates a small bauble about the size of your fist which gently orbits your body, containing the essence of your forsaken emotion. Its exact appearance is determined by you, with the following requirements: it must be primarily one color; if you create multiple externalized personality cores, each must have a different primary color; somewhere on each bauble, the mantra you previously used to deactivate that emotion must be written; it can be written multiple in multiple languages, but it is always written at least once in the ancient script of the titans. 

While your emotion is exiled to one of these external baubles, you are capable of perfectly rationally deciding when to, and when not to, act with the externalized emotion. You may consider the emotion imprisoned and not imprisoned at any moment, whichever you find most advantageous at the time. For example, if you have externalized your Sadness, you consciously choose _when_ to feel sad. If you get hit with a _Crushing Despair_ spell, you can simply choose not to be sad, rendering yourself immune as if your Sadness was imprisoned. However, if you don't feel like becoming a creepily utilitarian happiness machine, you can turn on your sadness from time to time to retain your humanity.

Your emotional baubles can be attacked individually as if they were your limbs; i.e. not usually. However, esoteric abilities like a _Sword of Sharpness_ or a Teramach's _Hero-Sundering Hands_ Mythos, which can sever limbs, can specifically target your baubles. In addition to whatever deleterious effects that these abilities might impose upon severing your emotional limb, the bauble shatters into powder and its particular emotion is considered to be irrevocably imprisoned by the 'Personality Core Deactivation Mantra' Mythos until you can spend another hour in meditation re-creating your sundered emotion. You never take ongoing damage from blood-loss from having a bauble destroyed by a limb-severing ability, because that would be weird. 

This manifestation can be used as many times as desired, externalizing any or all of your emotions, though each emotion takes a separate meditative ritual. 

*Seeing Through The Facade*
*Prerequisite:* The 'Arcanospectrum Optical Enhancement' Mythos

*Personal Gravity Field*
*Prerequisite:* The 'Proximate Thought-Energy Conversion Force' Mythos

Your thought-force gains enough finesse to bend the cosmic force of gravity around your physical form. You gain an (Intelligence modifier x 10)ft Fly speed with perfect maneuverability. 

In addition, you are immune to gravity-based effects unless you consciously allow them to affect you. This includes the gravity traits of planes, and things like a _Reverse Gravity_ spell.



Legendary
*Spoiler*
Show


*Consolidated Timeline Actualization*
*Prerequisite:* -

One of the fundamental goals of the Lawgivers in creating the Great Wheel was to provide _free will_ to all the creatures that dwell upon it. In their minds, without complete and true freedom of will, any life they brought into being would be just as meaningless as they believed the story-constructs played with by the Titans had been. So, they formed their vast multiversal machine to that effect, facilitating and regulating reality but not, itself, defining its events.

They succeeded, but the grandest and most monumental construction that will ever exist could not be made without compromise. Free will exists, but the Great Wheel must read, interpret, and reconcile trillions of acts of free will with every moment, consolidating them, instant-by-instant, into the present yoctosecond of reality. A job so impossibly complex that it is, as far as any being knows, impossible. In a truth known only to the very creators of the Wheel, and to those with this Mythos, the multiverse has a tiny 'buffering zone', in which it compiles all of the multiverse's free will for the next upcoming second or two, and then plays them as reality while it compiles more free will and creates the next few seconds.

With this Mythos, your knowledge of yourself ceases to be compromised by time. You attain absolutely perfect eidetic memory, all the way back to the moment your brain became complex enough to store thoughts while you languished in the womb. You remember it all, from your perspective, down to the last detail, and may view each moment in your mind like a still photograph. In this way, you can retroactively 'take 20' on Spot checks to notice details that happened in your past. You could, for example, glimpse a crime-scene for a mere moment then, later, spend a few minutes 'taking 20' on a Spot check to examine the crime-scene through your picture-perfect memory.

The odd part is that you can also remember 'past' events that have occurred in the Great Wheel's buffering zone, but have not yet become reality, as they have already been solidified into a part of your timeline. This gives you a kind of self-centered foresight that prevents you from ever being Surprised or rendered Flat-Footed, and you may choose to gain a +2 circumstance bonus on any roll you ever make that represents an action taken by you with free will, such as most skill checks, attack rolls, reflex saves, and damage rolls (something like a fortitude save won't usually apply, as it represents your physical hardiness, not an action you take).

----------


## Gideon Falcon

Oh my gosh this is AWESOME. I'm guessing the Epistemian is the Mythic sage of some sort? I think it's safe to say either way that Neo or Morpheus is going to be in the banner.

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## Xefas

> Oh my gosh this is AWESOME. I'm guessing the Epistemian is the Mythic sage of some sort? I think it's safe to say either way that Neo or Morpheus is going to be in the banner.


"Perfected Neo-Martial Combat Katas" is a reference to Neo, as well as the Gun Katas of the movie, Equilibrium. "Baleful Crossbow Practices" is a reference to Christian Bale, who plays the lead in Equilibrium. The expansion Mythos to that one, "Advanced Conflict-Equilibrium Matrices" references both Equilibrium and the Matrix.

The banner I made years ago is in the imgur album link, wherever that is. It would be different if I made it now, I think. For one, I wrote what's here long before Kill Six Billion Demons was a thing, and I feel like _someone_ would need to make it in the banner, given that setting's similarly nihilistic 'grand illusion'. Maybe 1 Metatron. Or something.

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## TraceChaos

Epistemian! Sick. I'm likin' the mytyhos. Feels very 'Sidereal' in Exalted terms. 

Also, 1 Metatron hasn't actually SEEN the grand illusion, or it hasn't been confirmed. There's the demiurge in the ice who has, and 6 Juggernaut Star has seen a ton, as well, but those two and Aesma are the only ones to have seen the universe for what it really is that we know.

Also ; Are there any mythos from the Mythic Dragon you're willing to share, or is that still too far off? Because I recall you saying somewhere that "At low levels, someone might wrongly assume you're some kind of half-dragon. At higher levels, people will rightly assume you're some kind of dragon." Which sounds great.

If note, that's fine.

Edit : Stuff, typo fixes.

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## Xefas

> Also, 1 Metatron hasn't actually SEEN the grand illusion, or it hasn't been confirmed. There's the demiurge in the ice who has, and 6 Juggernaut Star has seen a ton, as well, but those two and Aesma are the only ones to have seen the universe for what it really is that we know.


An excellent point. Jadis, omniscient and mindbroken from glimpsing the true shape of the universe, makes for a pretty good candidate.




> Also ; Are there any mythos from the Mythic Dragon you're willing to share, or is that still too far off? Because I recall you saying somewhere that "At low levels, someone might wrongly assume you're some kind of half-dragon. At higher levels, people will rightly assume you're some kind of dragon." Which sounds great.
> 
> If note, that's fine.


What I've currently got for the dragon is not, I think, the direction I would be going in anymore if I were to write it. The half-dragon -> dragon thing is still good. But I seem to have been writing some funky psionic theme as its secondary schtick. 

As consolation, I do have this smattering of Mythos from a class called the "Atelis", pulled from my scrapped ideas folder. I found reading it interesting, because I actually don't remember writing any of it, though I do vaguely remember deciding to write it. My best guess is that I cranked this out over the course of a sleepless night, probably when I had the flu or something. 

Fantastic (I'm putting these first because they're far more interesting than the Exceptional ones, which are largely bland.)
*Spoiler*
Show


*Anatomical Frame Expansion*
*Prerequisite:* -
*Activation:* X Biomass, where X is the difference between the amount of Biomass your current size category is worth, and the amount of Biomass the next largest category is worth. For example, if you are a Medium creature, the Activation requirement is 12 Biomass.

Your size category increases by 1 step. Your statistics change as normal for a creature that is advanced a size category. For example, a Medium creature that becomes Large gains +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, and +2 Natural Armor, but -2 to Dexterity. 

*Hollowed Symbiote Metamorphosis*
*Prerequisite:* The 'Wool-Stealing Wolf Camouflage' and 'Vital Function Decentralization' Mythos

With your flesh-scultping acumen, combined with the real-estate freed up by the alteration of your vital organs, you are able to create a hollow space within yourself, lined with thousands of tiny connections to your nervous system.

As a full-round action, you may split yourself open and stuff a willing, helpless, or pinned creature with a size category equal to or smaller than your own, into your cavity, becoming a fleshy symbiotic suit over their body.

While functioning as a symbiotic suit;
Use the higher of your Strength or your host's Strength.If your host is willing, you may use their Dexterity if it's higher.Use the higher of your movement speed or your host's movement speed. If they have a movement speed you do not possess (such as Fly or Burrow), you may use it.When you take a physical action, your host may resist, enforcing an opposed Strength check. If they are victorious, your action is wasted. You both must use your own Strength scores for this roll.Your host cannot be targeted separately from you, except by purely mental effects. You are always the target of attacks, always make the Fortitude and Reflex saves, and so on. However, when you take damage from a physical source, be it a stab wound, or a fireball, you may apply up to half of that damage to your host.At the end of your turn, you may choose to digest part of your host, dealing 1d6 acid damage to them. If you kill your host with this damage, or destroy their corpse with it, they are instantly dissolved and converted to Biomass.You may use any body parts possessed by your host that you do not. For example, if your host has four arms, and you normally have two, you may act as if you had four arms.Your size category cannot be reduced below that of your host's. Effects that would reduce your size category beyond this threshold are negated by the connection you have to your host's body.

While a host is wearing you;
They use the higher of your Strength or theirs.If you're willing, they may use your Dexterity if its higher than their own.They use the higher of your movement speed or their movement speed. If you have a movement speed they do not possess (such as Fly or Burrow), they may use it.When they take a physical action, you may resist them, enforcing an opposed Strength check. If you are victorious, their action is wasted. You both must use your own Strength scores for this roll.They gain the benefits of all of your Ancillary Mutations, provided you are not currently hiding them with Wool-Stealing Wolf Camouflage. When you use Fluctuating Flesh Mass, they gain the benefits of whichever form you are in as well. If you are disguising your voice with Wool-Stealing Wolf Camouflage, your host's voice is altered as well.They act as if their size category was equal to your own.They use your senses, in place of their own. If they have Darkvision and you do not, then they do not have Darkvision. If you have Scent, and they do not, then they have Scent, and so on.As a standard action, they may attempt to tear their way out of you with an opposed Strength check. You both must use your own Strength score for this roll, but your host gains a +2 bonus on the roll if you are at half health or less, a +4 if you're at a quarter of your health or less, and a total +6 bonus if you are unconscious or in negative health. If your host is victorious, you are Staggered on your next turn, and they are spit out into an adjacent space.When your host makes a Spot, Listen, or Search check, or any check with a Strength or Dexterity based skill, they may use their own total skill modifier or yours, whichever is higher.

Whenever one of you moves, the other moves likewise - this does not require an action on their part. After you have been attached to the same host for 24 hours, they two of you may communicate telepathically to one another, even if you do not share a language, transmitting information directly from one brain to the other.

As a full-round action, you may peel yourself off of a host, moving into an adjacent space and becoming your own creature again.

*Reach-Extending Extrusion*
*Prerequisite:* -
*Activation:* 1 Biomass

The cells in your limbs store a little extra musculature in them, compacted and folded away until needed. Your Reach extends by 5ft, but this quality is not immediately apparent to onlookers. Instead, when you need the extra Reach, your limbs extend themselves, gaining length from seemingly nowhere, then retracting back into seemingly nowhere when finished. The first time you attack a creature with this extra Reach, if they have no reason to believe you can extend your limbs, they are flat-footed for the attack. 

In addition, you may unleash a thin, ropy tentacle as a swift action. The tentacle can reach a maximum of (class level x 5)ft, plus 15ft if you're Small sized, 30ft if you're Medium, 60ft if you're Large, 120ft if you're Huge, 240ft if you're Gargantuan, and 480ft if you're Colossal. 

If aimed at a creature, you must make a Ranged Touch Attack against them. If successful, your tentacle wraps around and holds them. While you have a creature snared in this way, you may make Bull Rush attempts against them, regardless of the distance separating you, but you do not provoke an attack of opportunity, they cannot attempt to counter-Bull-Rush you if you fail, and you may move your target up to 5ft per point you beat their check by, rather than per 5 points. You cannot Bull Rush a creature in such a way that they are moved further away from you; you must pull them towards you, or yank them to the side. If you yank a creature hard enough that they impact a solid barrier, they and the barrier both take 1d6 damage per 5ft of forced movement they were unable to move.

If aimed at an object, you must make a Ranged Touch Attack against it. If successful, your tentacle sticks to it. If the object is a Light Load for you or less, you may pull it towards you or yank it to one side as a standard action, moving it up to 50ft. If it weighs between a Light Load and Medium Load, you may only move it 25ft. If the object impacts another character, they make an opposed Strength check against you. If they succeed, the object stops moving, and they are unmoved. If they fail, they are dragged along with the object for as far as your action is forcing it to move.

If aimed at a solid structure, you may have the tentacle secure itself to the surface, and then use it like a grappling hook for climbing, or for swinging.

Your tentacle has an Armor Class of (5 + your Natural Armor Bonus), and a number of hit points equal to your Constitution modifier. It shares any Fast Healing you have from Mythos. If its hit points are reduced to 0, the tentacle is severed and you must wait one full round before redeploying it.

You may have a total of two of these tentacles deployed at once.

*Thousand Eyes Idol*
*Prerequisite:* -

Your body grows small, fleshy eyes in strategic places all over its body. You gain Quick Reconnoiter (CA) and Danger Sense (CA) as bonus feats, as well as the Uncanny Dodge class feature, which allows you to retain your Dexterity bonus to your AC even if you're caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.

Finally, you gain the All-Around Vision special quality, which provides a +4 bonus on Spot and Search checks, and prevents you from being flanked. 

All the benefits of this Mythos are an Ancillary Mutation.

*Wool-Stealing Wolf Camouflage*
*Prerequisite:* -

You may shape the exterior flesh of your body to change your appearance, as well as altering your voice, as a full-round action. This can make you as tall or as short, as thin or as fat, as you choose within the bounds of your size category. Your hair and skin color can be altered at your whim, and you may apply as many minor cosmetic features, such as scars, birthmarks, tattoos, and so on, as you wish. You can alter your sex to any possible for your race, growing fully functional reproductive organs in the process. 

You may conceal the physical appearance of any Ancillary Mutations you have, but you lose their benefits in the process. You may choose to use a concealed Ancillary Mutation while disguising yourself, reinstating its benefits, but its physical appearance appears on your disguise until you use another action to re-disguise yourself. 

You may also create the appearance of clothing or armor over your body, extruding a thick layer of flesh and then shaping its surface to mimic fabric, leather, metal, or what-have-you. You can mimic the sound of clinking armor or rustling cloth, and the tactile feeling of linen or steel, and so on, but they do not actually confer the benefits of clothing or armor, such as protection against heat or cold, or an Armor Class bonus. And, of course, you cannot take your flesh-wear _off_.

You may use this Mythos to mimic a specific person. However, this requires a Disguise check to determine the authenticity of the various details a character might notice to out you as an imposter. The benefits are that you do not require a disguise kit, being able to create whatever modifications you need from your flesh, and you take no penalty on the check for impersonating a different gender, race, or age category.

If you consume a piece of a person, equivalent to a lock of hair, a finger, or an eyeball, or larger, you gain a +10 bonus on Disguise checks to impersonate them with this Mythos. If you consume a person's entire body, from scalp to toes, bones and organs all, this bonus increases to +20. 

*Vital Function Decentralization*
*Prerequisite:* -

Your vital organs are separated into smaller components, reinforced with a multitude of redundancies, and dispersed throughout your entire body, reducing the danger presented by catastrophic damage to any one location. You are immune to critical hits and precision damage (such as sneak attack and sudden strike), and decapitation no longer kills you. Effects targeted against individual organs (such as a _Heartclutch_ spell) have no effect on you. 

Furthermore, the destruction of one of your sensory organs does not actually inhibit its functionality. For example, you may still see if your eyes are cut out, although you may still be magically blinded, as some other part of your body will pick up the function of transmitting visual data to your dispersed brain-packets. Having your tongue cut out means nothing when you can use your entire body to taste with. And so on.

Every hour, you recover from one point of Ability Damage or Drain, in addition to any natural healing. 



Exceptional
*Spoiler*
Show


*Compounded Keratin Offense Mechanism*
*Prerequisite:* -

Your body has judged the weapons of its birthright insufficient for its purposes. Your hands rebuild themselves, bones hardening, joints reinforced, the structures of your nails bracing themselves deeply, and sharpening at the ends, forming functional claws. Under close inspection, they look unsettling inhuman, but casual interaction merely leaves an impression that your hands are 'odd'.

You gain Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB) as a bonus feat, and you may deal slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning damage with your unarmed strikes. You also gain a Climb speed equal to one half of your Land speed while you have one hand free, or equal to your Land speed if you use both hands to climb.

Finally, your body passively improves the structure of its weaponry over time. At 5th level, you gain a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks, and your unarmed attacks bypass damage reduction as if they were magical. At 10th level, this enhancement bonus increases by 1, and your unarmed attacks bypass damage reduction that may be bypassed by a particular material (such as silver or cold iron). At 13th, 15th, and 17th level, this enhancement bonus increases by another 1.

All the benefits of this Mythos are an Ancillary Mutation.

*Constant Combat Evolution*
*Prerequisite:* -

In the stress of battle, your conscious mind is occupied with the stress of violence and impending death, levying all of its know-how towards survival and victory. However, the primitive minds awakened within your cells are doing their own part to defend you, subconsciously noting the movements of your predators and prey, and subconsciously adjusting your movements to take advantage of what they've gleaned.

Every time you are hit with an enemy's attack and take damage, you gain a +1 Insight bonus to your Armor Class, up to a maximum of your Constitution modifier.

Every time you fail a saving throw imposed by an enemy, you gain a +1 Insight bonus to saving throws of the same kind, up to a maximum of your Constitution modifier.

Every time you miss with an attack roll against an enemy, you gain a +1 Insight bonus on attack rolls against the same opponent, up to a maximum of your Constitution modifier.

All accumulated bonuses vanish 5 minutes after you can no longer perceive direct danger to yourself, as your cells relinquish their life-or-death stress, and go about their normal duties.

*Fierce Jungle-Queen Fitness*
*Prerequisite:* -

Your muscles and tendons rebuild themselves for optimum performance in a harsh and brutal world. You gain Brachiation (CA), Leap of the Heavens (PHBII), and Endurance as bonus feats.

You gain a +2 circumstance bonus on Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Swim, and Tumble checks. Furthermore, you may substitute your Constitution modifier in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the purposes of your ability bonus on checks with those skills, relying on the competence of your body's self-modification, rather than your innate musculature or reflexes.

At 4th level, you ignore difficult terrain composed of non-magical, natural vegetation, such as thick undergrowth or brambles.

*Flesh-Eating Cannibal Maw*
*Prerequisite:* -

You gain Death Blow (CAd) as a bonus feat.

Your mouth rebuilds itself with sharpened, hardened teeth, a longer tongue, a reinforced, wider-opening jaw, and an esophagus more fit for swallowing larger, unchewed portions. A separate channel between your nose and lungs is incorporated, so you can still breathe with an obstructed throat. 

You gain a natural Bite attack, which can be used as a primary or secondary natural weapon. Its base damage for a medium creature is 1d6. When you utilize your Death Blow feat to deliver a Coup De Grace with your natural Bite attack, you may specifically target a particular vital organ, such as the heart or brain, tearing it out and swallowing it whole on a successful kill.

After killing a creature in this way, you gain a surge of adrenaline, removing any ongoing Fear effects on you, and giving you a +2 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls for 5 minutes.

Creatures with this Mythos do not necessarily look abnormal while just going about their normal business. However, speaking reveals the freakishly sharp teeth, and utilizing one's Bite attack fully reveals the Atelis' terrifying, aberrant nature.

The Bite attack granted by this Mythos is an Ancillary Mutation, but the other benefits are not.

*Fluctuating Flesh Mass*
*Prerequisite:* -

Using similar methods to how your awakened cells can condense and store vast quantities of Biomass in your relatively limited frame, you gain a degree of control over your shape.

As a swift action, you may change between an Inflated Form, Deflated Form, or your normal shape.

While in your Inflated Form, you add muscle and mass to your body, gaining a +4 bonus to your Strength, and gaining the Powerful Build trait (Whenever you are subject to a size modifier for an opposed check, you are treated as one size larger if doing so is advantagous. You are also considered one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size can affect you. You can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger than yourself without penalty.) and you are treated as being one size category larger than you are for the purposes of your unarmed attack damage (if you already houserule that Powerful Build increases unarmed attack damage, ignore this).

While in your Deflated Form, you contract your body as much as possible, gaining thin, wiry, muscles. You gain a +4 bonus to your Dexterity, and gain the Slight Build trait (Whenever you are subject to a size modifier for an opposed check, such as for the Hide skill, you are treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous. You are also considered one size smaller when 'squeezing' through a restrictive space. You may use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty.)

Deflating yourself is often enough to slip through ropes, manacles, and other bindings without a check, unless they're deliberately tied or constructed with failsafes in mind for such an ability. Even in such cases, if you are tied up (or grappled) while in your normal state or your Inflated Form, and you Deflate yourself, you add your Constitution modifier as a bonus on Escape Artist checks to escape the bindings (or grapple) until the end of your turn. You may Inflate and Deflate turn after turn to continue gaining this bonus on subsequent attempts, if necessary, stretching out ropes and confounding would-be grapplers.

*Heightened Predator Senses*
*Prerequisite:* -

Your sensory organs rebuild themselves for heightened sensitivity. You gain Track as a bonus feat, the Scent special quality, Low-Light Vision, and Darkvision out to 60ft. 

You gain a +2 circumstance bonus on Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, and Survival checks. Furthermore, you may substitute your Constitution modifier in place of your Wisdom or Dexterity modifier for the purposes of your ability bonus on checks with those skills, relying on the competence of your body's self-modification, rather than your brain's intuition.

Finally, when using your Track feat, you do not take the -5 penalty for moving at your normal speed while tracking.

*Optimized Battle Appendage*
*Prerequisite:* -
*Activation:* 2 Biomass

One of your arms transforms into a grotesque, but highly effective, organic instrument of death. It no longer serves the functions of a hand, but when used offensively, it works as an unarmed strike that deals damage two size categories larger than usual, and is considered a two-handed weapon for the purposes of your Strength modifier to damage and the Power Attack feat. Choose whether it is a bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing weapon.

At the end of your turn, you may choose one creature you successfully struck and dealt damage to with your Optimized Battle Appendage. 
[list][*]If it was a Bludgeoning Appendage, usually a thick arm topped with a massive ball of gristle and bone, you make a free Bull Rush attempt against the target. Unlike a normal Bull Rush, you may send the target in any direction of your choosing. If you succeed with a wide enough margin to push the victim beyond 5 feet, you may do so without needing to follow them. Instead, you merely send them arcing through the air with a mighty blow. If this causes them to strike a solid barrier, they and the barrier both take 1d6 damage per 5 feet of forced movement that they were unable to take due to striking the barrier. On a failed Bull Rush attempt, your target cannot react to counter-Bull-Rush you.[*]If it was a Slashing Appendage, usually a long limb topped with an axe-head of bone, or with a long sharpened blade of bone protruding from one side of the limb like a cleaver's blade, your chosen target must make a Reflex save. On a failed save, their armor takes the same amount of damage you dealt to them with the attack that triggered this ability. If you destroy an opponent's armor in this way, you gain its gold piece value in Mythos Points.[*]If it was a Piercing Appendage, usually an oversized mass of bony spikes, or a spindly arm ending in a massive double-headed pick, your target must make a Fortitude save or begin to bleed for 1 hit point of damage at the beginning of each of their turns. This lasts for 1 minute, until the victim receives at least one point of magical healing, or receives a DC 10 Heal check as a standard action. A creature can suffer from multiple bleeding wounds of this kind at the same time.

This is a Prime Mutation. When you spend an action to swap your Prime Mutation, you may change which kind of appendage (Bludgeoning, Slashing, or Piercing) this Mythos grants you.


*Pack Hunter Instincts*
*Prerequisite:* -

Something has changed in your brain chemistry, giving you the killer instincts of a predatory beast.

You gain Combat Reflexes, Deft Opportunist (CAd), Clever Opportunist (DotU), and Expert Tactician (CAd) as bonus feats. 

*Photosynthetic Flora Hybridization*
*Prerequisite:* -
*Activation:* 1 Biomass acquired through consuming photosynthetic vegetable matter, and at least 4 ranks in Knowledge (Nature).

Your body incorporates plant-like qualities into the cells of your skin and digestive system, as well as in a few other important places.

As long as you are exposed to 1 hour of natural sunlight a day, or 2 hours of any light, you do not require food to sustain yourself for the day, although you still require water as normal, and your natural healing rate is doubled. This alteration causes your skin to take on a slight greenish tone that, while not making you look immediately inhuman, is still noticeable enough to be noteworthy.

You are immune to poisons, and may speak with plant-life as if by a _Speak With Plants_ spell, as an Extraordinary ability, your body releasing pheromones to communicate the intent of your words.

At 6th level, if you are properly watered, and have been exposed to light for the aforementioned length of time necessary to obviate traditional foods, you gain Fast Healing 1 for 24 hours. This Fast Healing increases by 1 per two levels above 6th (2 at 8th, 3 at 10th, etc).

All the benefits of this Mythos are an Ancillary Mutation.



And the class's "Biomass" feature.
*Spoiler*
Show


*Biomass:* Although an Atelis' body is eager to shape itself, perfection is not free. Many of their mythic abilities require raw materials to function, measured in Biomass. Biomass is stored within an Atelis body, to a maximum of (class level) points, plus an additional amount based on their size. This is +1 for Small, +2 for Medium, +4 for Large, +8 for Huge, +16 for Gargantuan, and +32 for Colossal. If an Atelis's size changes such that they can no longer contain all their Biomass, they disgorge a voluminous purple slurry containing the excess. This slurry can be reconsumed to regain the lost Biomass, by the original Atelis or another. 

An Atelis acquires points of Biomass by consumption. To avoid lengthy debates at the table about weight and mass, here is a simplified guideline for how much Biomass something is worth: An amount of meat equivalent in size to a Small creature is worth 1 Biomass. A Medium creature equivalent is worth 4, a Large is worth 16, a Huge is worth 64, a Gargantuan is worth 256, and a feast equivalent to a Colossal creature is worth 1024. Vegetable matter is worth half as much for its size.

A single point of Biomass can be consumed in parts, such as eating a plate of steaks, rather than having to swallow an entire animal whole, but if an entire point of Biomass isn't conglomerated in the span of a few minutes, it's wasted. That is, you can't eat one trail ration every day for two months and create a point of Biomass - it has to be taken in one sitting. 

Some notes on not being a cannibal: For the non-squeamish, buying a cow from an average settlement only costs 10 gold pieces, and is worth 4 Biomass once you kill it and gorge yourself on its raw, bloody flesh. To eat like a civilized person will usually cost you about 30gp per point of Biomass, assuming you can even find an inn or restaurant that will prepare such a large meal on short notice, and won't chase you out of town with pitchforks once they see you eat it all in one go. 



Based on the above, I'm almost certain that Past Me was going to have the Legendary Mythos focused around spending Biomass to spawn NotZerg, based around a system of granting Primary and Ancillary Mutations. I assume the Shintai was going to be either becoming an immobile Overmind structure, or using the Symbiote Fantastic Mythos to permanently 'chrysalis' onto someone else and fuse with them. Or maybe one of each.

----------


## ImperatorV

...It's funny, I was just re-reading the Kreikiri, which is also a biology-themed mythos class. One that has a Shintai to turn into a immobile flesh-fortress spawning not-creep, at that. The Atelis seems very different in how it approaches the subject matter, though.

----------


## Gideon Falcon

Yeah, it seems like an even cross between the Epifovian and the Kreikiri- so it was probably made before either of them. How appropriate, that something so Lovecraftian was written unremembered in a tortured fever-dream...

Either way, those could easily be repurposed as new Mythos for said classes, if the Atelis doesn't have enough on its own. If it does, the main concern is finding a picture of the Thing that can be shown on the boards for the banner...

----------


## Lanth Sor

Zerg like all the Big ones. Initially i thought i was reading things for the becoming a dragon class.

----------


## Quarian Rex

> "Atelis"


For the love of the babby jebus _finish this_.  I'm a huge fan of body horror and this looks like it has a lot of potential.  There can never be enough shapeshifting symbiont weirdness.

----------


## Lanth Sor

Thinking of hashing up the Syntrophos counter for armor so far i have, for my options.

Venom(Marvel)
BerskerkerArmor(Berserk)
Iron Man (SentientArmor) (Earth-616)
Senketsu(Kill LaKill)
Cyborsuit(Starkid)
Alphonse Elric (FullMetal Alchemist)

----------


## Lanth Sor

Quick update I made a Discord for Mythos class discussion.

Discord Channel

----------


## TraceChaos

> *Hollowed Symbiote Metamorphosis*
> *Prerequisite:* The 'Wool-Stealing Wolf Camouflage' and 'Vital Function Decentralization' Mythos
> 
> With your flesh-scultping acumen, combined with the real-estate freed up by the alteration of your vital organs, you are able to create a hollow space within yourself, lined with thousands of tiny connections to your nervous system.
> 
> As a full-round action, you may split yourself open and stuff a willing, helpless, or pinned creature with a size category equal to or smaller than your own, into your cavity, becoming a fleshy symbiotic suit over their body.
> 
> While functioning as a symbiotic suit;
> Use the higher of your Strength or your host's Strength.If your host is willing, you may use their Dexterity if it's higher.Use the higher of your movement speed or your host's movement speed. If they have a movement speed you do not possess (such as Fly or Burrow), you may use it.When you take a physical action, your host may resist, enforcing an opposed Strength check. If they are victorious, your action is wasted. You both must use your own Strength scores for this roll.Your host cannot be targeted separately from you, except by purely mental effects. You are always the target of attacks, always make the Fortitude and Reflex saves, and so on. However, when you take damage from a physical source, be it a stab wound, or a fireball, you may apply up to half of that damage to your host.At the end of your turn, you may choose to digest part of your host, dealing 1d6 acid damage to them. If you kill your host with this damage, or destroy their corpse with it, they are instantly dissolved and converted to Biomass.You may use any body parts possessed by your host that you do not. For example, if your host has four arms, and you normally have two, you may act as if you had four arms.Your size category cannot be reduced below that of your host's. Effects that would reduce your size category beyond this threshold are negated by the connection you have to your host's body.
> ...


This. THIS IS GREAT. I tried a while back to make a symbiote mythos, failed, and never tried to go back because I'm just not great at mythos creation.  I really want the ability to use this some time, play a Spider-Man style symbiote and such. 

Very cool times, either way. Shame it's a scrapped idea.

----------


## Zale

> "Perfected Neo-Martial Combat Katas" is a reference to Neo, as well as the Gun Katas of the movie, Equilibrium. "Baleful Crossbow Practices" is a reference to Christian Bale, who plays the lead in Equilibrium. The expansion Mythos to that one, "Advanced Conflict-Equilibrium Matrices" references both Equilibrium and the Matrix.
> 
> The banner I made years ago is in the imgur album link, wherever that is. It would be different if I made it now, I think. For one, I wrote what's here long before Kill Six Billion Demons was a thing, and I feel like _someone_ would need to make it in the banner, given that setting's similarly nihilistic 'grand illusion'. Maybe 1 Metatron. Or something.


Banner Link

Quote:




> Epistemian
> "See your world through my eyes - a universe so vast as to be immeasurable; incomprehensible, even to your greatest minds." ~Algalon the Observer, World of Warcraft
> 
> The nature of the titan, whose name was 'Union' to her brothers and sisters, was not one of power, presence, or strength, but of simple sight. The Epistemian has had the misfortune of stumbling into the same narrative, and with it, become able to see. See, truthfully. See the world as it truly is. 
> 
> Theirs is a fate worse than death.


I thought they had a SWLIHN taste.

----------


## Xefas

> Quick update I made a Discord for Mythos class discussion.
> 
> Discord Channel


I forgot to thank Lanth for making this Discord while I was on last night. So. Thank you!

I'll probably be back on at 10ish pm*. 

*(That's 8.5 hours from this post.)

----------


## TraceChaos

*Graven Void Shintai*
Prerequisites: The Undead type, at least One(1) Oblivion-descriptor Mythos. 

Few Olethrofex have allowed Oblivion to seep into themselves in such a way as to fully change who and what they are. With this mythos, you will be one of them. 
The effects of this Mythos are not gained immediately upon taking it. You must first find some place you consider safe to sit and meditate. This begins as a simple light trance, which gradually deepens. The meditation is on the Oblivion, the simple 'nothing' that you have let sink into your being with previous Mythos. As you meditate, your physical form distorts slightly, and seems to bleed a strange mist into the surrounding area that distorts everything within a ten foot radius, giving it 20% concealment. 
After twelve hours, the trance is deep, and this is irreversible ; the meditation must be completed. You will continue to meditate until you come to terms with the inevitability of Oblivion, and how it has changed you and is changing you still. At the end of this meditation, you stand. You are no longer Undead, but rather a strange creature of 'living metal', though the metal that makes you up is not truly alive. You are a paradox - the stain of True Oblivion in immortal form upon the Wheel. 

The player cannot willfully end their meditation before 48 hours have ended, after 12 hours have passed, but may choose to allow their character to meditate indefinitely if they so choose. Once a specific amount of time (A minimum of 48 hours, again) has been chosen, the character will meditate for that time, or until attacked.

If attacked in such a way as to allow them to notice it (By them taking damage or being changed in some way against their will) the character will surge with the essence of Oblivion, impossible as that is, and deal (2d6 times Class Level) damage to everything within ten feet in any direction except themselves and any worn equipment (dealing full damage to everything affected.) Anything reduced to or below 0 hit points in this way that does not also possess this Mythos is irrevocably lost - the matter is gone, souls and bodies erased as if they never were. Nothing, not even divine intervention, can restore things lost to this effect. 

At the culmination of this Mythos (After having meditated either for twelve hours and having been attacked, or for 48 hours or more and the player having chosen to end the meditation) the character's type is changed to Construct. They gain a +6 bonus to Intelligence and Wisdom as their ability to understand what is and to perceive what is is made exceedingly clear after their deep meditation on what Is Not. Their charisma, however, is set to nothing. Not zero, but rather a value of "-", as their mind is changed irrevocably, their sense of self altered from knowing that they Are Not, yet paradoxically still exist. Diplomacy and Bluff are affected as a score of - would imply the same for constitution based effects. All other skills and abilities instead use either Wisdom or Intelligence, chosen at the activation of this mythos. Despite the lack of a Charisma score, the character is still sapient (that is, intelligent and capable of reacting) and usable as a Player Character.

All Negative Energy damage that you deal is tainted by your connection to Oblivion, and deals full damage to objects and creatures, regardless of Negative Energy Affinity, Immunity, or Resistance. 

You gain Damage Reduction 15 / Adamantine, as your body is made of the strange metal it is. You also, thanks to the now-active role your Oblivion-scarred soul plays in your body, gain Regeneration 1 with no bypass, as your soul has literally nowhere to go on death, and nothing to do but ensure you last until the inevitable end of all. Your Regeneration functions despite your lack of a Constitution score, allowing you to take nonlethal damage and otherwise functioning as normal.

You are also effectively divorced from the Great Wheel in such a way as to prevent any afterlife from claiming you. You have no alignment, and any Spell, Ability, or Class Feature that targets alignment simply fails when used on you. Spells or effects that check for alignment do not simply fail, however, but return with an uncomfortable result of utter lack ; while normally a Detect Evil spell would simply return with a 'negative' or 'no result', when used on, say, a True Neutral creature it instead states your lack of any alignment to those who use it on you. All similar effects do the same.

As a final note, you gain the ability to channel Oblivion energy into any melee attack you make from this point on, allowing you to add (Intelligence or Wisdom modifier, whichever is higher) Negative Energy damage to unarmed strikes, natural weapons, melee manufactured weapon attacks or melee touch attacks. You may also deal the same damage as a Touch Attack, usable in place of any attack in part of a Full Attack. 

*Legendary Mythos. Based off of an old work of Xefas, designed for the Olethrofex.*

Later edit : I remember I intended to also prevent you from procreating in any way, also including the raising of undead, except I intended to include a 'you don't get it automatically' manifestation type things where you can use the metal you're made of to raise the undead, and or one so that if you have the infection zombies mythos thing that you could raise them but they're "Oblivion tainted" and I'd make a template for undead like that and blah.

----------


## Quarian Rex

> *Graven Void Shintai*


Good sir, I do not believe that this is a shintai.  What we have here is just a straight up buff.  There is absolutely no downside or any aspect that would have any effect on the way the character is played other than to note that you now have a boatload of buffs.  

I realize that you did add a Cha score of "-" but you also added this...



> Diplomacy and Bluff are affected as a score of - would imply the same for constitution based effects. All other skills and abilities instead use either Wisdom or Intelligence, chosen at the activation of this mythos. Despite the lack of a Charisma score, the character is still sapient (that is, intelligent and capable of reacting) and usable as a Player Character.


... completely removing any possible penalty to the ability.  Worse yet, you added this little tidbit... 



> Diplomacy and Bluff are affected as a score of - would imply the same for constitution based effects.


... which is completely meaningless.  There is no implication to using skills based on an ability of "-" since creatures that have nulls for an attribute don't have skills associated with that attribute (or at least have have documentation of how that would work in their niche situation) and don't have any attribute modifier penalty associated with the null.  

Have a look at the other existing shintais.  There is benefit (and usually nowhere close to the crap-ton of buffs packed into this puppy, including _perfect_ regeneration.  WTH man...) coupled with game-changing limitations to the character.  I believe you have completely missed the mark.

----------


## Morphic tide

> Good sir, I do not believe that this is a shintai.  What we have here is just a straight up buff.  There is absolutely no downside or any aspect that would have any effect on the way the character is played other than to note that you now have a boatload of buffs.  
> 
> I realize that you did add a Cha score of "-" but you also added this...
> 
> ... completely removing any possible penalty to the ability.  Worse yet, you added this little tidbit... 
> 
> ... which is completely meaningless.  There is no implication to using skills based on an ability of "-" since creatures that have nulls for an attribute don't have skills associated with that attribute (or at least have have documentation of how that would work in their niche situation) and don't have any attribute modifier penalty associated with the null.  
> 
> Have a look at the other existing shintais.  There is benefit (and usually nowhere close to the crap-ton of buffs packed into this puppy, including _perfect_ regeneration.  WTH man...) coupled with game-changing limitations to the character.  I believe you have completely missed the mark.


A quick fix would be having the regeneration shut off by hostile Positive Energy use, so people attempting to use Positive Energy to harm the one with the Shintai like an Undead can turn off the regeneration. More severely, clarifying that the character gets an effective -5 penalty for everything asking for a Charisma modifier makes a lot of stuff suffer significantly. Making them share in Construct _weaknesses,_ like needing to jump through bundles of hoops to get reliable healing, adds another touch of issue. Just a bit of quick and sloppy downside application...

----------


## ThreadNecro5

So in my effort to get the Tipoparchi written I am trying to think of things that could be 'lost' to base each Mythos around.

Essentially Extraordinary Mythos are things that can be denied to a person, Fantastic are things inherent and vital to being a person, higher tiers are more esoteric facts of existence that cease to apply to the Tipoparchi and the area around them, ect.

*Currently the ideas list is the following*:
Name
Soul
Freedom
Choice
Light
Existence
Life
Cares
Knowledge
Corporeality
Voice
Sight
Race/creature type
Identity

Any and all help is appreciated.

----------


## Gideon Falcon

Semi-serious list of things you can lose:

Love
Faith
Face (Social connections)
One's Marbles (Sanity)
The Game
Strength
Your way (No, seriously, where are you?)
The Wi-fi Signal
Secrecy
The Advantage
Territory/Property
The Will to go on
Weight
Your keys, again

----------


## TraceChaos

I'm power scaling Graven Void versus Sjourner of a THousand Lives.

Sojourner of a Thousand Lives gives a purely fluff-based debuff of "Lol you're lacking personality."

In return it gives +6 to all three metnals and any ten feats you qualify for, including with the feats you get frmo it. TEN. FEATS. 

Compared to regen with no bypass and your diplo and bluff having no stat to them, as well as something equivalent to an exceptional mythos... doesn'ts eem like that big a deal. 

The biggest debuff the Shintai there really eneds is maybe just make ALL cha skills get no stat to them. 

Manslayer Shintai gives you an infinitely-stacking buff to initiative and a SICK ****ing gaze attack in exchange for "You can't tell the commoners you arne't keeping track of apart frmo one another, and I guess you have to kill people that're significant threats to you unless you didn't do all the damage tot hem." And it's not a Legendary, it's a Fantastic.

I'm well versed in Mythos, alright. 

Although, again, I was considering making it incapable of any form of reproduction (Including the mythos for waving yourh ands and raising undead) except a specific addon to a previous Oletherofex Mythos (The one where you bite people and ifnect them with a virus).

----------


## NineOfSpades

So, I've loved the The Kalthorros since I first layed eyes on it. And It's always pained me to see it remain so unfinished. Given that roko10 has said that he has abandoned the project, I've decided to take up the challenge to finish the task myself. Afterall, it seems wrong to give up on a class that is built as the embodiment of never giving up.

While it's not done yet, I've managed to rebuild a lot of the Kalthorros and really supercharge it's mechanics into something that, to me, seems more suited to the concepts. So I've reached a point where I'd like to show off what I've managed to make and hopefully get some feedback from more experienced homebrewers. Here is a link to the googledoc I've been using. I wanted to hold of on making a thread properly until I had something that was 100% playable. 

If anyone has some free time, look it over and let me know how it all reads, what parts work and what parts need more polish. I'm also looking for more mythos suggestions and excellencies (Though I suppose that's true for most every mythos class).

----------


## Gideon Falcon

As much as I love the concept it references, I feel like the name Determinator's Mythos is too meta for a title. Maybe something like the Struggler's Mythos, or the Unbroken Mythos.

----------


## NineOfSpades

> As much as I love the concept it references, I feel like the name Determinator's Mythos is too meta for a title. Maybe something like the Struggler's Mythos, or the Unbroken Mythos.


Easy enough to fix, thanks!

----------


## Bluydee

I dont really understand why its Wisdom based though. When I think of willpower I think of the force of somebodys personality powering through, especially considering the characters on the Kalthorros banners. I get that every single Mythos class is Charisma or Intelligence but fluff-wise it feels out of place IMO. One of the earlier iterations of this class was based off their Will Save, which I think is an interesting compromise that allows for either

----------


## NineOfSpades

> I dont really understand why its Wisdom based though. When I think of willpower I think of the force of somebodys personality powering through, especially considering the characters on the Kalthorros banners. I get that every single Mythos class is Charisma or Intelligence but fluff-wise it feels out of place IMO. One of the earlier iterations of this class was based off their Will Save, which I think is an interesting compromise that allows for either


I mean, I agree with you, but this is a problem with no easy solution. The simplest answer is that, Since will saving throws are based on wisdom, the basic mechanics of D&D tells us that characters with more wisdom have more willpower. Its not a perfect fit, as I agree that pretty much any one of the mental stats could, to one degree or another, be used as justification the baseline for willpower. Intelligence is typically used for Psionic, so that could be willpower. And as you pointed out, most of the more bombastic characters that are used as sources of inspiration for the mythos are charismatic and bring great force of personality.

Then again, I suppose the answer can be arrived at by coming at it from the other direction. Who has more willpower? A movie star whos a total airhead that gets by on their looks and charm (High Charisma, Low Wisdom), or a hermit who lives in isolation and spends endless days in meditation (High wisdom, Low Charisma)?

The alternative of using the characters will save is not, in my mind, an idea solution, mostly because by definition it will always scale faster than characters whose abilities are based off of just an ability score (Will Save=Base Will Save + Wis Modifier), which means the character has an edge over other mythos classes since those abilities usually are based off of just an ability score. I find it very hard to believe that the embodiment of willpower has a fundamental mechanical advantage, when they should be an underdog compared to their mythic peers. It doesnt take willpower to win when you are starting with a mechanical advantage.

If nothing else, I had to pick one ability score to use as the baseline for determining the saving throws of the mythos abilities. Otherwise youd have the save be 10+1/2 Class Level + Will Save, which just seems ridiculous and opens the door to even more crazy things to base save DCs on, like HP or armor Class.

Short Answer: I'm not super happy with it either, but I think it's probably the best choice overall.

----------


## nikkoli

You could get really weird and makes the saves scale as 10+base will save + chosen stat modifier. It would be interesting because you'd get 12-22 as the base instead of 10-20, but how many abilities does that class have that are projected on others rather than focused upon themselves?

----------


## ThreadNecro5

> Semi-serious list of things you can lose:
> 
> Love
> Faith
> Face (Social connections)
> One's Marbles (Sanity)
> The Game
> Strength
> Your way (No, seriously, where are you?)
> ...


Thank you. I can work with some of these.

Is it wrong that the first of these to turn into a crumb of an idea for something was 'the keys' because as a joke I decided to see what would happen if I tried to turn that into something. 


Anyway while I'm asking everyone for advice, hat are people's thoughts on this WIP class feature.
*Spoiler*
Show

Cease to Be
The crux of the Nothing was the Young One tearing itself open and empty. The Tipoparchi in turn grows hollow before reveling themselves to the world.

At 1st level, a Tipoparchi is immune to the harm caused by contact with a Sphere of Annihilation, able to move through it as if it was not there, all items they carry also benefit form this immunity. Additionally they gain a +4 bonus on saving throws to resist Energy Drain and to remove Negative Levels. Physically the area over their heart (or the analogous location) becomes noticeably bruised or darkens as a small mote of Nothing develops in their heart.

At 3rd level, they gain immunity to Energy Drain and Negative Levels. Additionally They gain ?

The mote of Nothing within the Tipoparchis heart expands to replace the heart and create an opening in their chest (sometimes this only replaces the heart and opens up the bruised region, and at others it is a full cylinder right through the Tipoparchis chest). Due to the inability to comprehend true nothing non-Tipoparchi visually register this as a space of solid white, black, or some shade of gray. Any item that enters this nothing is destroyed as if by a Sphere of Annihilation. Generally there is no chance of this happening unless a creature does so deliberately. Any armour or clothing worn over this hole is drawn into it, creating a hole in the armour or clothing that revels the hole but otherwise does not damage the equipment. This takes an hour to occur.

At 5th level, they ?


As the second feature added at 3rd level I am considering porting over the effects of the Pathfinder Talisman of the sphere/otherwise making a portable Sphere of Annihilation. Perhaps add the ability to locate the nearest Sphere and similar voids in existence.

----------


## Morphic tide

> If nothing else, I had to pick one ability score to use as the baseline for determining the saving throws of the mythos abilities. Otherwise youd have the save be 10+1/2 Class Level + Will Save, which just seems ridiculous and opens the door to even more crazy things to base save DCs on, like HP or armor Class..


...you do realize that DCs based on shenanigan numbers are an entirely useful concept, right? A save DC based on _current_ health works quite well to incentivize not being a meat shield by making you less effective with damage. Which makes people at least try to play smart. Scaling with AC instead of Con means that you give an incentive to actually use the heaviest armor, which, coincidentally, comes pretty close to the expected ability score modifiers at higher levels. So some adjustments may be needed, but it incentivizes play styles and character builds that more conventional DC scaling values wouldn't.

Seriously, DCs based on skill checks are entirely usable. Particularly if you do something to cap them, while not having going over be completely useless.

----------


## Lanth Sor

> Thank you. I can work with some of these.
> 
> Is it wrong that the first of these to turn into a crumb of an idea for something was 'the keys' because as a joke I decided to see what would happen if I tried to turn that into something. 
> 
> 
> Anyway while I'm asking everyone for advice, hat are people's thoughts on this WIP class feature.
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> ...


I need this in my life. TBH i like the oblvion aspect of Mythic necro but its oblivion from the stance of life death or Nothing, not absolute nothing.

----------


## Bluydee

> Short Answer: I'm not super happy with it either, but I think it's probably the best choice overall.


Personally, I think the best bet is to just let people choose whether their key modifier is wisdom or charisma. Its not like either stat has much of an advantage over the other

And on the topic of Will Saves used as a modifier, I think its very thematic if they are used very sparingly, like once per day/encounter/week/level/grit point add your Will Save to any roll, or something more creative like that

----------


## roko10

Wow, Nine, great job on finishing what's essentially an abandoned project, though it's less because I got bored with it and more that I hit a wall with Mythos concepts. And, well, boredom. 

Also, for the Wisdom modifier debate, maybe give them the option to choose between Charisma and Wisdom to determine their Grit pool?

----------


## Drunken Jesus

so is there any chance some one might revive to proidos then? i was really excited for that class. it seems when some one makes a mythic scientist, they seem to just never finish it.

----------


## roko10

Im actually planning on a rework of the Proidos, one thats perhaps more inclined towards Augments and Templates, and with several massive buffs, so dont worry about that. The reason why it kind of died was because I kind of forgot about it, and when I came back to work on it, it... was kind of a cluttered mess.

Also, Im going to make a Mythic Cyborg add-on in the vein of the Mythic Warlock, so stay tuned.

----------


## NineOfSpades

> Wow, Nine, great job on finishing what's essentially an abandoned project, though it's less because I got bored with it and more that I hit a wall with Mythos concepts. And, well, boredom. 
> 
> Also, for the Wisdom modifier debate, maybe give them the option to choose between Charisma and Wisdom to determine their Grit pool?


Not like I had much choice. The class itself refuses to give up.

I added in an excellency that will hopefully resolve the wisdom charsima issue.




> Force of Will And Personality
> Prerequisite:-
> You draw your willpower more from your deeply held sense of self and identity rather than from focus and concentration. You may replace your wisdom modifier with your charisma modifier for determining the DC for your mythos abilities, the size of your grit pool, and the effects of any of your mythos that are dependent on your wisdom modifier.


Now it's pretty easy to switch the class from being a Wisdom focused build to a Charisma focused build.

----------


## Sgt. Cookie

Mythic Elemental is up! Link!

----------


## Gideon Falcon

> Im actually planning on a rework of the Proidos, one thats perhaps more inclined towards Augments and Templates, and with several massive buffs, so dont worry about that. The reason why it kind of died was because I kind of forgot about it, and when I came back to work on it, it... was kind of a cluttered mess.
> 
> Also, Im going to make a Mythic Cyborg add-on in the vein of the Mythic Warlock, so stay tuned.


HUZZAH! It lives! The Iron Man shall walk again! Looking forward with eagerness, roko!

----------


## Lanth Sor

Mythic Souls Hollow Mythos coming soon.

Need some help with the racial balance.

----------


## roko10

So, have an ridiculously unbalanced Exalted Kalthorros Shintai, meant only when the campaign goes FUBAR and you're for some reason up against enemies better suited for high Epic levels of play, as well as a slightly more balanced Dinyomi excellency that prevents you from having to derail the entire campaign just because some idiot under your command made fun of your orders.

​*Spoiler: Exalted Mythos (Kalthorros)*
Show


*Final Unbroken Roar Shintai*
*Prerequisite:* -, unless you count a game gone tits up as a prerequisite.

Upon taking this Mythos, you're immediately made aware of your Mythic nature, regardless of what you initially thought it was, as well as a certain ritual that you can undertake to unleash the full power of your Mythos, albeit at a great cost. To perform this ritual, you must meditate uninterrupted for eight hours; any interruption will force you to start all over again.

However, the boons of this ritual are massive. You multiply any numerical value (such as ability scores, attack bonuses, damage AC, and saving throws) that you have or are currently benefiting from by 10x, as you finally transcend from the boundaries of lesser men. You may opt to omit certain effects from this multiplier; if you're suffering from a Slow spell, you don't have to suffer a -10 penalty to rolls. You may spend Grit points up to your class level to add a cumulative 5x to the multiplier for one minute, although you do not modify the amount of hit points or the points in your Grit pool as a result of this temporary multiplier. In addition, you learn three Exalted or lower Mythos from any Mythos class list, as you grasp beyond your limits and into the boundaries of other Titans.

Finally, your sheer power makes it nigh impossible to actually _comprehend_ it. You (or the weltering power inside of you) cannot be detected by any means short of the five base senses: scrying sensors immediately falter, a Reth Dekalas Weakness-Browsing Arrogance Mythos always considers you as Worthless, regardless of how far above him you actually are,  abilities specifically describe to detect your life-force or Mythic essence are ineffective in actually detecting you, and much, much more. This also prevents anybody from casting teleportation effects or teleporting in a (200ft/level) radius around you, as per the _Dimensional Anchor_ spell.

However, this power comes at a major cost; your Mythic power will slowly ebb away from you, eventually disappating completely. After completeing the aforementioned ritual, you will lose all your Exalted Mythos (except for this Shintai) after three days, Legendary Mythos after a week, Fantastic Mythos after two weeks, and Exceptional Mythos after a month. Finally, after all your other Mythos are lost, this Shintai becomes sealed, meaning that, whilst you still _have_ this Shintai, you don't reap any benefits whatsoever from it, nor can you initiate the ritual again. In effect, you become a glorified Warrior, although you may opt to take up another Mythos class (and are considered to take your first level in that Mythic class), so long as you don't use an ability to get access to the Unbroken Mythos, such as the Mythic Amalgam line of feats or Omnicapable Human-Spirit Ignition.

(You still retain any feat granted by your Mythos, but you do not apply any modifier to them caused by Mythos. For example, if you had the Masamune-Wielding Rigor advanced manifestation of Undeniable Impact Style, you will still retain the Monkey Grip feat granted to you; however, you will still suffer from the -2 penalty from using oversized weapons, as you don't have the ability that says that you don't suffer from that penalty anymore.)

*Basic*

_Mythless Sky(Prerequisite: Boundary-Breaking Burst)_: As a standard action, you may unleash a massive, decisive attack. Treat this attack as a normal attack enhanced by Boundary-Breaking Burst, but multiply the amount of rolled die by x10 whilst using it, ignore the limitation that you may only spend up to your class level in Grit points to enhance the attack, you automatically hit with the attack, and you may also apply the attack to everything within a (100ft + 25ft per class level long, 20ft+5ft per class level wide) line. In addition, should you manage to reduce someone to -10 hit points, they die, regardless of any class features, spells, or GM fiat.

Finally, should you somehow fail to kill your target with this attack, you still manage to rob them of most of their defenses; if they have any kind of immunity or resistance to anything whatsoever, those immunities and resistances are dispelled for an amount of minutes equal to your Wisdom modifier, allowing someone else to sweep in and seal or kill your target.

However, this power causes you to lose your connection to your Mythic nature at an even faster rate. After using this attack, you lose all your Exalted Mythos (except for this Shintai, which again will be rendered inert after you lost all other Mythos) after a minute, Legendary Mythos after half a hour, Fantastic Mythos after four hours, and Exceptional Mythos after twenty-four hours.

*Advanced*

_An Tale, Renewed and Reborn_: This manifestation does not exist yet; however, a particularly traumatic event happening to a former Kalthorros can reignite the spark of the Unbroken Mythos, causing them to almost spontaneously regain their access to the Mythos they once sacrificed.

Upon taking this Manifestation, you immediately regain all the Mythos lost through the effects of this Shintai, with the exception of the three free Exalted Mythos that you gained after the ritual. In addition, you may also, instead of just restoring your Mythos, choose to rebuild your character from the ground up to represent a melding of your old, Struggle-derived power and new learning. For example, a former Kalthorros who has lost his Mythos through the use of this ability, which then took to studying the flow of elements, only to lose it again through Essence Fracture may opt to replace one of his feats with Broken Omphalos Amalgam and replace several of his Exceptional and Fantastic Mythos with Kathodos-derived ones, representing him embracing both his old abilities and his new ones.

However, after taking this manifestation, you still can never replicate the ritual granted to you by this Shintai- that will be forever out of your reach. 


*Spoiler: Dinyomi Excellency*
Show


*​Mass-Opinion Spurning Ephipany
**Prerequisite:* -

The Conqueror may be prideful beyond reproach, but, despite what many claimed, he wasnt so fragile as to buckle and break under the hushed whispers of the lowly masses. After all, why would someone whos risen above the level of the petty scum care about their gossip? Why would a lion care about the buzzing of the flies?

You are no longer Humbled by everyone who has seen you bested or denounced by someone who saw you as Glorious or subject to a compulsion or domination effect, only by the person who has done such an act in the first place; youve finally realized that the opinions of the crowd doesnt matter so much as the fact that someone upstart thinks he's better than you.

In addition, you gain an additional condition to keep track of; Scornful, caused after you so thoroughly humiliated someone in response of you being made Humbled by them, that they can only see you in terms of fear. If youre Scornful towards somebody, it means that you can no longer be Humbled by that person anymore; youre forever considered Glorious to them.

----------


## Gideon Falcon

It's amalgam, actually. Still, a pretty interesting mythos, and the Excellency is probably a major necessity now you bring it up. A Dinyomi probably wouldn't bat an eye at punishing people for hearing insults against him, but it would be a logistical nightmare.

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## NineOfSpades

If you are going to make such a one-shot ability, it needs to be way over the top. I would go bigger, maybe as high as x100. If you are losing everything,  it better guarantee victory.

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## roko10

Honestly, I thought that the ability would be too overpowered if it was 100x the modifier, but considering that it's now being considered too weak, I might as well amp it even further.

-Every single numerical value of yours is multiplied by 10, and you can spend grit points to amplify them even further. The enemy also can no longer throw debuffs at you and call it a day.
-You get three Exalted Mythos from any source now, instead of just one. 
-Mythless Sky now requires ungodly amounts of die, automatically hits, and now is a true "screw-you" beam that makes CLEANSE THIS WORLD AWASH IN THE FLAMES OF MINE OWN HEART look like a gods-damned peashooter. If you don't manage to kill your target(s) with this attack, you either didn't put enough grit points in the attack (but why, though?) or you really bit off far more than you could chew.

(To put things in perspective here, a reasonably-optimized Kalthorros would have a 20 in Wisdom/Charisma. Final Unbroken Roar makes it so that he has an whopping _200_ points in Wisdom/Charimsa, giving him a ability score bonus of +95. If he has taken Paragon of Spirit thrice and is level 20, he now has *365* grit points. Boundary Breaking Burst gives 1d6/2 class levels plus 1d6 per grit point you spend on it, up to a maximum of your class level, a restriction which Mythless Sky waives. 

So, assuming that the Kalthorros initiates Mythless Sky with a full grit point pool and expends all of his grit points, he will now have to roll *3700d6.* worth of die, meaning that he deals *12950* damage on *average*, and *22200* maximum. At this stage, you can kill pretty much anything save from abstract concepts like Death himself.)

Also, I'm thinking of adding a Basic manifestation building off Burning Blood To Cut Through Fate, too.

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## NineOfSpades

It might be worthwhile to change the mythos so that the 'one time insta-kickass mode' is an advanced manifestation or something. As is, even with the power boost, I would likely never choose the mythos for anything other than a one-shot. It just holds way to much risk for use. Like, if the BBEG you are trying to fight just teleport away, for example.

I'm not entirely sure how to fix that issue, as it stands, since I really do like the idea of a one shot super boost with massive drawbacks.

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## roko10

A simple passive Dimensional Anchor effect would probably nullify the but what if he teleports problem.

Also, the risk is actually inherent. Its a Shintai. In a game where you dont accidentally end up tussling with the Lady of Pain, you probably shouldnt use it.

In other words, its meant for the rare situations where its the final battle, and through the partys poor choices, theyre about to lose everything were it not for the Shintai.

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## roko10

Sorry for double-posting, but Jormengand made an... uh, thing.

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## Theseventh

> Sorry for double-posting, but Jormengand made an... uh, thing.


It was a good thing.

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## JKTrickster

Do people still talk about Bellator and/or Kathodos or Teramach?

I have this vague notion in my head but I think it makes sense. 

I don't think the Bellator should be allowed to be unarmed. At all. If they are the Iron Mythos, the Mythos that was born with War and Weapons, they shouldn't be unarmed. 

Unarmed fighting is more naturalistic and/or brutal (fitting for Kathodos and Teramach). 



Instead, the ability to use Bellator abilities without a weapon in hand should be a high level Shintai. In many asian mythologies, there are often Sword Saints who realize that best swordplay is "without form - without a sword at all". 

I know this idea sounds really bad, but if you think about it I think it makes thematic sense.

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## Morphic tide

> Do people still talk about Bellator and/or Kathodos or Teramach?
> 
> I have this vague notion in my head but I think it makes sense. 
> 
> I don't think the Bellator should be allowed to be unarmed. At all. If they are the Iron Mythos, the Mythos that was born with War and Weapons, they shouldn't be unarmed. 
> 
> Unarmed fighting is more naturalistic and/or brutal (fitting for Kathodos and Teramach). 
> 
> 
> ...


It sounds bad, and is bad mechanically, but a lower-level Mythos or Excellency to make swords on the spot, or having a partial exception for Spiked Gauntlets, solves almost all the mechanical issues. Then the Shintai can be sword-beams all over the place.

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## JKTrickster

I think for part of it, the Bellator has to be comfortable with a variety of weapons - and there are Mythos that allow for that. Even something like a spike gauntlet is a weapon. 

But unarmed should be the domain of the Kathodos and Termach first and foremost.

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## PeacefulOak

I tend to come at things from an artistic standpoint as opposed to a balance or mechanics standpoint, but here is where I see it.

The Teramach is Violence, perhaps even Poetry in Violence.  It is brutality and destruction with disregard for form or manner, so long as destruction is wrought.

The Kathodos is Fluidity, their form adjusting to the nature of the energy with which they work.  

The Bellator is Discipline, with violence as an extension of their discipline.  Where the Teramach is a bar-room brawler, and the Kathodos is a master of many forms of Kung Fu, the Bellator would be Karate: discipline and form, striking with precision to dispatch their foes with the most finite movements possible.


There is room for each of them to strike with fists or weapons.  The difference is in _how_ they strike, with what intent and what motivation.

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## Lanth Sor

> I don't think the Bellator should be allowed to be unarmed. At all. If they are the Iron Mythos, the Mythos that was born with War and Weapons, they shouldn't be unarmed.


This I see as a referencing the more war mind of "Paying the Iron Price." The entire class is all about that practice. The "iron Price" is reference to payment through combat, and unarmed is just another face of war.

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## Defiantnight

> The Game


 :Small Furious:

----------


## Rogthnor

So what does everyone think of the 5e mythos classes by Xefas? I definitely prefer the 3.5 ones, the greater amount of powers and abilities makes them much more impressive to me.

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## PeacefulOak

For those that watch this thread, but not the Finding Players forum.... I posted a re-recruitment for my ongoing Mythos game.

I look forward to seeing what interest comes up.

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## Gideon Falcon

I'm not a big fan. They're a very clunky mechanic, what with the whole 'start at level 10' thing. The classes are interesting, but really don't carry the same feel as the 3.5 classes.
     The Cynosure, I dislike on a more idealogical level- his stated idea with the 3.5 version seemed to be based around the fact that he thought the Marshall was a stupid class because of how he interpreted the Auras and the Charisma score- that it was supposed to be some mystical presence about how pretty they were rather than any actual leadership qualities. His plan was to make an 'idiot god' deal that, as he described, lead with sheer prettyness without any actual leadership ability--and I'm only barely paraphrasing here. He wanted to parody what he didn't like by reconstructing it in a much bleaker way. It's basically the same cynicism I've noted as being prevalent in the system before. I actually like the Marshall archetype, and vastly prefer the Megaligeti for the role.
      His 5e version is even worse--it's basically Darkseid, and that's about it. There's not much for the use of benevolent leaders (not that the original Xefas classes are geared toward the idea of benevolent characters in the first place), just tyranny and lording over everybody. I mean, a lot of the powers can be _used_ for good, but not any more effectively than for evil. Perhaps it's just a personal gripe, but I don't like having the system assume that nobody wants to play a straight-up good guy.

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## rooster707

First: I had no idea the 5e Mythos stuff existed, so thanks for that. Second, as someone who was curious about the Mythos system but doesn't play 3.5, I'm really glad they exist. But I do wish there was more room for different... tones, I guess? It seems like they're all designed exclusively to be horrible amoral sociopaths, and I'm not sure how I feel about that.

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## Lanth Sor

The mechanic seems like a pretty chill guy. But I agree them starting at like level 3 would make sense but level ten is kinda ridiculous. The problem is see is at level 10 you usually have done something to be of note, I'm fundamentally against starting higher than 1 but in the case of mythos classes i can understand level 3. 

Something I've been playing around with was to make story prerequisites for mythos. IE Ardent Aegis Bulwark having the requirement of blocking 50 attacks that would have hit if you had not been using a shield. 

Shining Shield Legionaries you have to preform a great display of defending others before a large group of people. 
The orc horde bears down on the town of Thorpe and Kendok the Agios jumps down from the gate shield in hand taunting the orc warband. As the orcs draw to the easy target they are picked off one at time by archers and Kendok's trusty ax. After the battle 3 of the militia inform him they wish to follow him.

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## Inevitability

In the category: "I hate thing and all who like thing is wrong."

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## dethkruzer

> In the category: "I hate thing and all who like thing is wrong."


pretty sure this came up on the last page.

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## Inevitability

Oh huh, it did. That's what I get for skimming over the previous posts after a lengthy absence.

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## Gideon Falcon

So, a Mythos for the Taramach that's been bouncing in my head for a while:

*Crossed Passions Bestial Morality License* (_Exceptional_)
Prerequisites: Alignment other than True Neutral

   In its natural state, the Monster recognizes no master. It heeds no code of conduct, has no allies, listens to no call but that of bloodshed. You, as much as you channel the Monster in your story, are not the Monster. Bloodshed is not your purpose, but your tool, and you can do the impossible and restrain the Monster within you, feeding its anger to serving a higher cause.

   Whenever you witness an action in opposition to your alignment, you may fly into a Rage which lasts 1 minute. During this Rage, you gain +4 to strength, and all your attacks deal additional damage to targets of an opposing alignment equal to your strength modifier.

*Basic Manifestations:*
_Red Rage of Compassion:_ Requires Good alignment: While in a Rage, you are capable of some amount of mercy: You may deal nonlethal damage, and need not slay unconscious opponents.
_Caged Beast Fighting for Freedom:_ Requires Chaotic alignment: While in a Rage, you need not move directly towards your enemies; You may skirt along the edges of the battle, for example, so long as you do not move directly _away_ from your enemies (to within 45 degrees or so).
_Antidisestablishmentarian Vice-Grip Fury:_ Requires Lawful alignment: While in a Rage, you may move away from enemies so long as doing so would bring you closer to your allies, and may utilize the Aid Another action.
_Cruelty Raging at Weakness:_ Requires Evil alignment: While in a Rage, you may attack allies freely as if they were enemies.
*Advanced Manifestation:*
_Stench of Evil:_ While in a Rage, you can smell opposite alignments as if with a crude form of the _Detect_ spells: You can detect most aura strengths as if with the Scent ability; creatures with at least Overwhelming aura strengths are always considered upwind of you. If the aura would be strong enough to stun you using the spell, you can detect it as if with the Keen Scent ability, and instead must save against Nausea for one round at the same DC (see the spell description).

So, yeah. I'm not entirely happy how the non-good alignments turned out, since I'm not sure Evil actually _does_ anything (I don't know that Aid Another is restricted normally, and you can technically arbitrarily decide an ally is your enemy now at any time), but there's not really anything I can think of that an evil person would want to do that Rage prevents.

I would also love to see more Epic Mythos PrCs. I have an idea for an Agios one that's based on becoming an Archangel, and I mean a _real_ angel, not those dinky Solars. Unfortunately... that's literally my idea. No clue where to go with it.

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## Lanth Sor

Evil lets you Monologue about the righteousness of your cause.

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## Gideon Falcon

That is absolutely perfect and wonderful... Now how can I express that beyond "Just stand there and talk?" Demoralizing is still allowed normally, even if you don't have an ability to make it as a swift action.

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## Lanth Sor

Allow Diplomacy.

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## Gideon Falcon

That would be giving Evil characters the most nonviolent option of the bunch. Also, now I think about it, stopping to talk is pretty much exactly the point where it stops being a Rage. A frothing-mouthed berserker may still leave survivors or kite around or stand in front of his allies from the idiosyncrasies of his alignment, but lecturing as a Rage activity more fits in to a scholar archetype -- which this is not.

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## Gideon Falcon

Sorry for the double post, but I've been looking through the Bellator a lot lately, and I figured I could make a better version of the defunct "Zenith of the Nine Arts" Mythos for high-level and Epic play. Here goes:

*Zenith of the Nine Arts*
*Exalted*
*Prerequisites:* 'Perfect [Discipline] Lotus' Mythos (All manifestations), 'The [Discipline]'s Roots Grow Deep' Excellency, 'One Kick a Thousand Times' Mythos

The Bellator is the embodiment of the supreme perfection in combat that Reshar strove for in his journeys, and which his followers try to imitate in the Sublime Way. You have surpassed them all in their understandings of the Path, now standing equal to Reshar himself. Assuming you haven't gone even further already.

You gain the Ninth level maneuver (or maneuvers, if there are more than one) of any and all disciplines for which you have the 'Perfect [Discipline] Lotus' Mythos with all manifestations, including those you gain at later points. In addition, 'The [Discipline]'s Roots Grow Deep' applies to all such disciplines as well.

Furthermore, your Passive Strike can be chosen from both 1st and 2nd level maneuvers, and you may have two Passive strikes at a time, changing one or both as normal. Fundamental Maneuvers, for the purposes of the 'One Kick a Thousand Times' Mythos, can be up to 3rd level.

*Basic*
_Mastery of the Basics:_ You may now have a Passive Boost in addition to your Passive Strikes, a 1st or 2nd level Boost maneuver (which must not be instantaneous) that affects you constantly without needing to activate it.

_Perfection of the Nine:_ All martial maneuvers you initiate which require a saving throw increase their DC to (10 + 1/2 your Bellator level + the higher of your Strength or Intelligence modifiers), and you add half your Bellator level to any skill check or opposed ability check used as part of a maneuver.

_The Lotus Spreads Its Seeds:_ Requires Bellator level 24: You may use an additional Passive Strike at once. You may select this manifestation multiple times, each time adding four to the required level. The effects stack. If you also have a Passive Boost, you gain an additional one for every two times this manifestation is taken.

Thoughts?

Also, an Excellency just for more esoteric warriors, since it doesn't fit anywhere else:

*Esoteric Understanding of the Mage-Warrior*
*[Excellency]*
*Prerequisite:* One Legendary Mythos

When using or gaining Mythos and Excellencies relating to Martial Disciplines, such as [Discipline] Seed Awakening, Unconventional Style Application, and Zenith of the Nine Arts, you are no longer restricted from learning and using Supernatural maneuvers. Unlike most Mythos abilities, these are still considered Supernatural abilities.

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## Morphic tide

...I'm not sure what scares me more about that. The fact that the Bellator gets to have multiple automatic Strikes applied to each attack pre-Epic, or the fact that Reshar was so absurd that he apparently had abilities requiring Exalted Mythos to _keep up with._

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## khadgar567

> ...I'm not sure what scares me more about that. The fact that the Bellator gets to have multiple automatic Strikes applied to each attack pre-Epic, or the fact that Reshar was so absurd that he apparently had abilities requiring Exalted Mythos to _keep up with._


well at least gives Reshar's myth some ( okay a lot of) oomph. and this is kinda problem when you add path of war content to mix i can probably make a broken build right know if i want and i dont hasve any experiance tome of battle content

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## Primal Fury

> ...I'm not sure what scares me more about that. The fact that the Bellator gets to have multiple automatic Strikes applied to each attack pre-Epic, or the fact that Reshar was so absurd that he apparently had abilities requiring Exalted Mythos to _keep up with._


I think it makes more sense to say that Reshar just _IS_ a Bellator.

Also. I made a thing that's... kind of horrible. Does anyone want this, or am I stuck with it?

*The Sanrasha*
*Spoiler*
Show




*Spoiler*
Show

*The Dowager's Mythos:* _*snip*_

Exceptional mythos are the tools of succubi and incubi in mortal skin skulking through the shadows of civilized society. They devour the innocence of others to sate their own ravenous lusts, and leave mutant children in their wake doomed to lash out against a world that will inevitably hate and fear them. Sanrasha possessed of Fantastic mythos offer desire in one hand, and madness in the other. They straddle a world far too pure for them, seeking to infest it with moral and physical degradations whose merest mention would drive the stoutest of hearts to quake with fear and longing in equal measure. Legendary Sanrasha are the progenitors of a thousand monstrous creatures, each born and bred to spread its foulness far and wide; but their parent is far more vile. Should they deign to walk the land, even a glance dooms whole nations to debauchery and deformity. The world is barren now, filled will nothing but skittering abominations and titanic monstrosities fighting over what little is left beneath the dust. The thrones of the gods sit empty, either dead or fleeing in the wake of terrors too foul to comprehend. Even the pit has been overrun, filled to bursting with creatures born of demons and... something else. One of the Exalted has come and gone, draining the world of all natural life and replacing it with twisted mockeries of what once was.

_*snip*_

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## Morphic tide

> Also. I made a thing that's... kind of horrible. Does anyone want this, or am I stuck with it?
> 
> *The Sanrasha*
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm... While the idea of a minion-focused Mythos is a nice idea, the idea doesn't have much room for anything other than CE. Taramach has _some_ support for the "noble savage" character archetype to be CG. Not _much_, but enough for it to actually work without altering the crunch(this is helped by the lack of important abilities being tied to alignment requirements).

A fully Vile-themed Mythos who tosses around Taint like it's going out of style doesn't have room for a Good subset of the idea. Worse, it's actually not a common story archetype, so it's not fitting with Mythos being a connection to the platonic form of a character archetype seen in myths. Even in modern storytelling, the "mother of monsters" and bringer of taint are actually pretty rare, mostly limited to just two or three genres.

The Taramach, as an example, is supposed to represent Asura fighting to save Mithra just as much as Doomsday demolishing Metropolis to kill Superman. Also Ganon, somewhat, with that ability to have a horde of raging savages acting as backup bodies for the PC. Mythos are a common archetype, not merely an idea. Krieg from Borderlands is actually one of the example characters of the archetype represented.

As a suggestion, I'd switch it to being a more general evolution/reproduction based class, freeing up room for more versatile and less campaign breaking Mythos. Mechanically, a decent number of Mythos classes use tagged Mythos abilities, so your initial idea could be a starting point for a subset about Taint, spreading the Vile nature of that particular Anthol by corrupting everything around them. Copying some of the way the Ancient Mutations from Evolutionist work would help out with streamlining how the minions are made, mechanically.

Rather important is settling on what to do for Mythos Points. Something I haven't seen done (though I haven't dug into all the Mythos) is expend Mythos Points for things other than getting Mythos, and if the class is largely about giving permanent abilities to minions and making powerful permanent minions, it stands to reason that Mythos Points should be expended for granted Mythos abilities. Which are kinda needed to make minion-spawning function as a primary function of an Anthol character. A suggestion would be rations, providing for the flesh needs of the rapid spawning that'd form the bulk of it, scaling with how much it's worth in GP to begin with, then having Mythos Manifestations or Excellencies that add the days it'd feed the Anthol(or a standard Medium creature) for and/or the power of a devoured creature slain by the Anthol.

Of course, downtime can turn into a hilarious power leveling session as every spare spell slot the Druid or Cleric has left over is spent on Goodberries and Create Food and Water, but most of the Anthol classes have cases like that available if you dig into it. In general, because they work off of the value of what's sacrificed it's possible to game the everloving **** out of it with other high-tier characters, such as Artificers making items at 20% normal crafting cost for a ten to one ratio of GP spent to power gained, or a high-level Wizard using Instant conjurations to make items of significant value for the Anthol to sacrifice as their Mythos demands.

One of the helpful edge cases of having Mythos Points as a power supply of sorts is that it makes the class somewhat friendly to multiclassing beyond what the Anthol classes normally allow, as it can use Mythos Points when you're unable to use Mythos Points on purchasing actual Mythos, enabling the use of the class in Anthol-minority builds without entirely losing the thematic value of being able to trade GP for a class function. A similar thing could be added to the Teramach for empowering Reavers. In general, trading Mythos points for other types of power would make the Anthol classes... Not exactly _dippable_ because the rate of Mythos gain is so slow and they have to keep to a certain ceiling of Mythos power, but it makes it so they aren't severely nerfed by multiclassing.

...Actually, is it RAW-legal to use Mythos points generated by one class for another? It really wouldn't come up much because you can only spend them on Xefas-made classes when the class is the majority of the build, but dipping into Bellator as an Anakitos can be a major boon as it gives a far easier GP sink than Anakitos normally has.

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## Primal Fury

Alignment? That doesn't enter into it all when I think about Anthols. When it mentions "corrupted flesh" it's talking more about growth without limit, like cancer. It's not inherently evil, just REALLY unpleasant. Xenomorphs don't kill you and eat you because they're EVIL; they're just animals. The Thing doesn't absorb because it's a bad guy; it's just an alien trying to survive (though that depends on your interpretation of the "Who Goes There" I suppose). Yeah. Not malignant, just alien.

Also, what I liked about the Teramach initially more than anything was that it didn't punish you for NOT being Chaotic Evil, but the Monster's Legend would eventually swallow you up if you followed that thread far enough. It's the same here. Sure, you CAN bang everything that moves and have an horrifying army of monster children, OR you can have a dedicated and willing harem follow you around and pop out horrifying monster children that do HILARIOUSLY bad things to equally bad people.

And I'm not using Taint. Here are the other class abilities.




> *Horrid Fecundity:* After the death of her husband, She Who Became the Dowager was able to unleash all the lurid and sensuous stories his frigid nature kept in check. She had been held back for so long that every drop of her rancid ichor was overflowing with fertile energy, and will be forevermore; now that she is free, all are in danger of becoming part of her gnarled family tree. All sex acts performed with the Sanrasha result in offspring, regardless of gender; they may choose to become pregnant themselves, impregnate others, or both at once. The Anthol suffers no penalties for being pregnant. Certain mythos require the use of an unborn fetus, either within the Anthol themselves, carrying the [Expectant] tag, or someone else, carrying the [Surrogate] tag. Males who become impregnated have their offspring grow in a faux uterus, and delivered through a faux vagina, both of which remain in a vestigial state after the pregnancy comes to term.
> 
> *Unspeakable Magnetism:* The true horror of the Blackest Widow is not her ability to make wombs of every creature that suffers her touch, but rather her tendency to turn these victims into her willing lovers. The Anthol is found attractive by and is capable of being attracted to all creatures; this desire exists regardless sexuality, gender, race, species, or living status. The character adds half their level to all seduction rolls, whether it's a Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate check.

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## Gideon Falcon

Well, mechanically, the evolution and minion focus is taken up by the Kreikiri, which has it's own long line of monster-making and customizing abilities, including mythos almost certainly referencing the Xenomorphs and Ragnorra, two of the characters on your chart. The fluff has some value (though I wouldn't go nearly so far or in the same direction as you seem to intend; make sure to keep it forum-appropriate), but being as niche as others have pointed out, combined with the potential for stepping on toes, means it might be better as a racial Mythos feat, like the planetouched and warlock lines.

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## Primal Fury

Heh. Talking about it makes me want to take it back up. I'll, of course, keep it forum appropriate, but I can't promise much else.

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## Quarian Rex

> being as niche as others have pointed out, combined with the potential for stepping on toes, means it might be better as a racial Mythos feat, like the planetouched and warlock lines.


Hey, this is homebrew, a grab bag of potential awesome.  If you have an interesting slant on a theme then do it.  Toe-stepping shouldn't really be a factor.  Even in the mythos classes there is some noticeable overlap, and really, that is quite fine.  Despite the broad archetype nature of the mythos classes they really do come across as narrowly focussed, and that is where I think a lot of the classes appeal comes from.  There really is quite a bit of room in each niche and the more, the merrier.  I spent a lot of time poking at the mechanics of the Kreikiri and I would love to see a different take on a similar theme.  

As for making it a feat vs. a class, go with the class.  The ability to make permanent (or near-permanent) creatures is something that should be delved into as part of a class.  There is really just too many potential possibilities to try to cram into a feat.

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## VoodooPaladin

> *The Sanrasha*


I am torn. On the one hand, this is well-written and well thought-out. On the other, the Dowager is one of many reasons why I have a strict *Look, Don't Touch* policy when it comes to Exalted. Someone at White Wolf was working through their issues on the clock, I tell you.

Go for it, man. It's certain to be interesting, at the very least.

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## Primal Fury

Ya know what? I don't think I will. After hearing y'all mention the Kreikiri, I just realized I've never actually read it to completion (or at all now that I think about it). Now that I have, it's just about everything I could've wanted in a fleshwarping class. And let me tell you, I have an... _unhealthy appreciation_ for anything dealing with fleshwarping.

If you're reading this ThreadNecro5: Good on ya. You did some good damn work.  :Small Wink:

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## Gideon Falcon

Note that he never did finish the Diffuse Mind option for Neural Echoes under Necrotic Meat Mutation. If anyone has an idea, he would probably not mind developing it.

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## Arkanist

For your consideration, a prestige class centered around owning a Stronghold and infusing it with one's own Myth. In the thread, I'd love to take suggestions, feedback, and tweaks.

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## Gideon Falcon

I like the Death Star capstone. Some ideas for more Mythos would be, say, some sort of Labyrinth that drives people mad if they get lost in it, predatory garden plants patrolling the outer grounds (as another offshoot from the leadership effects), and some more abilities for extradimensional spaces. It's true that the Stronghold Builder's guide can provide a lot if similar abilities with the right Landlord expenditures, but any free forms (and often improved versions) will always help make the estate that much grander.
On tell other hand, I also like how the Drawing from Arcane Wells ability works- it's based on an existing Stronghold Space feature, but gives it a new function appropriate to the Mythos system. You could find some other specialized rooms that could be given Mythos abilities to become more exotic, fantastic, and befitting a mysterious mansion.

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## Theseventh

> Ya know what? I don't think I will. After hearing y'all mention the Kreikiri, I just realized I've never actually read it to completion (or at all now that I think about it). Now that I have, it's just about everything I could've wanted in a fleshwarping class. And let me tell you, I have an... _unhealthy appreciation_ for anything dealing with fleshwarping.
> 
> If you're reading this ThreadNecro5: Good on ya. You did some good damn work.


I would still love to see your take on it. The Kreikiri is my favorite mythos class out of the whole system and I support more fleshy themed spin offs!

At the very least, consider making a sort of subset of mythos as a sort of homebrew add-on to the kreikiri? I did the same thing with another Mythos class where I made a whole set of mythos that gave it a Truenaming path.

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## Primal Fury

> At the very least, consider making a sort of subset of mythos as a sort of homebrew add-on to the kreikiri? I did the same thing with another Mythos class where I made a whole set of mythos that gave it a Truenaming path.


I think I'll put it down completely. The whole "mother/father of monsters" thing raises the question as to how they _make_ the monsters. And since "Sanrasha" is japanese for "ovipositor"... well. Let's just say, in my head at least, some of those mythos would be a bit too risque to be posted on a decent forum like this.

Also. If you look up the word ovipositor, please be careful. People are into some WEIRD stuff.

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## Gideon Falcon

I believe someone was working on rewriting the Proidos- any news on progress in that front?

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## Morphic tide

> Also. If you look up the word ovipositor, please be careful. People are into some WEIRD stuff.


*nipple impregnation comic flashbacks* ...This is where I regret my choice of fetishes... At least it rarely crosses with scat or snuff. Pretty frequently involves insect-buggering and tentacles. Yes, both, at the same time, because ovipositors are usually rendered as tentacles rather than *****.




> I believe someone was working on rewriting the Proidos- any news on progress in that front?


Of my own posts, this is the closest I can think of to such a suggestion. Looking at the Proidos, it is, mechanically, largely about adding abilities to items, with some Mythos to graft items to add abilities to into people. By appearances, it's also planned to have some form of minion creation, but that never got anywhere.

A rework would, obviously, need to actually finish the class. And also touch up the fluff, because it's a bit unfitting.

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## roko10

Sorry, guys. I knew I _promised_ to rework the Proidos, but that sadly never really went anywhere and really just made me disillusioned about the whole thing about halfway through. It never really got the "mad science" vibe I wanted it to, and I have the feeling that it's either horribly underpowered or overpowered depending which Mythos you pick, considering I never could playtest it. 

Also, [Spell] Emulating Gadgetry and it's successor Mythos were terrible ideas that should've never been gone past the conceptual stages.

I feel that a Mythic Inventor should be far less constrained than the Proidos was, more like the 5e Michanikos than anything else, with new Mythos gained being more like building blocks for things you build rather than templates you apply to stuff. The downside of that approach is that it requires a permissive DM, though really, if they allow you to play a Mythos class, they're pretty permissive to begin with.

Jorm's "class"/scathing critique also took all the wind from my sails and made me consider quitting making Mythos content altogether, but that's less their fault and more of mine for being so oversensitive.

Still, I'm back here and considering to make some Mythos content again, though no promises on when if ever it's going to happen. Maybe a Mythic Paragons for hybrids and/or a race vaguely based on Bionicle or even the Mythic Notionbinder from way back, though it's up in the air for now.

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## Theseventh

> I think I'll put it down completely. The whole "mother/father of monsters" thing raises the question as to how they _make_ the monsters. And since "Sanrasha" is japanese for "ovipositor"... well. Let's just say, in my head at least, some of those mythos would be a bit too risque to be posted on a decent forum like this.


Bah! GitP? Decent? A wretched hive of homebrew and abandoned ideas more like!

But fair enough, your ideas your choice. I for one am not squeamish about such things. If no one else wants to I would be willing to field ideas for a Kreikiri PRC. One needs to be made! Though I don't even know where to start. I would still love to hear your ideas Primal Fury. Even if only through private messages.

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## Primal Fury

I guess it could work as a PrC. While it does have a few things in common with the Kreikiri, it's more like an offshoot with it's own (similar) themes.

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## Theseventh

That's what makes it great for a PRC! Similar theme, different way of going about it.

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## Gideon Falcon

That's alright, Roko. I know the feeling. To be honest, the best way I can think of to really simulate the adaptability and mad science vibe of the Proidos- would be... The Kreikiri. Again. Perhaps a new set if Mythos to craft grafts as equipment, leading into the existing Symbiont Mythos, and carry a more construct-themed aesthetic to that subset.
The existing Proidos abilities are either easily added to the Kreikiri or already doable as is. Add some special options specifically for Meatsuit Symbionts, and bada Bing, multiple discipline evil genius.

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## Morphic tide

So, Lanth Sor has started working on what is, essentially, a Mythic Ranger. (also, they failed to link this thread) They haven't come up with the Titan/Lawbringer/whatever the class draws on as an Anthol, and has only just started on it, but I thought I'd bring the conversation here so we can talk over the groundwork without cluttering the class's thread with suggestions for the foundation of the class. Then again, it's been less than four hours since Lanth started on it...

I'll start with Mythos point gain mechanisms. The one I think would work best is the difference between cost of things used and the cost of what is gained while hunting something, as this deals with most of the potential problems with hunting-based gains (judging excessive expenditure is nigh impossible and irrevokable lack of mechanical benefit from hunting is _also_ nigh impossible to judge, especially as hunting is something done for benefit virtually always) and allows Mythos Points to be gotten during normal adventuring as a sort of compensation for spending more than is looted. For the more typical "if you benefit from the expenditure, it doesn't give _any_ points" variety, funding hunting preserves and hunting organizations would work out fairly well.

Another thing is to have some trap-based and/or poison-based Mythos, partly to have more options for excessively-expensive means of killing to generate Mythos points and partly to follow the fact that the dominant form of hunting for the vast majority of human history was to set the area you hunted in in your favor and squeeze out every force multiplier possible before you set out to hunt. Even from the earliest hunting practices we can identify, massive pits would be dug so that prey could be run into areas they couldn't escape. This is how people with sharpened sticks and stones could kill mammoths with high reliability.

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## Lanth Sor

I feel I kinda cheated with my final banner. I have 2 picks that have 2 hunters from the same worlds.

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## Gideon Falcon

I don't see a problem with that.

First off, _love_ the name. Jager is pretty much my new favorite word for hunter. Actually, I guess it's pretty much everyone's new favorite word, since Pacific Rim and Attack on Titan became things.

It still needs Track as a bonus feat- the very first Mythos assumes you have Track but doesn't require it as a prerequisite. Plus, you know, it's a Ranger. You shouldn't even need to take an Excellency to have Track, and Mythos classes already hand out bonus feats like pretzels.

Afraid I don't have anything for Mythos Point gaining methods, though. I generally just think of Mythos Points as generally 'I got rid of this much money in whatever way' and don't put much further thought into it outside of Mythos-specific methods like sundering abilities.

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## Lanth Sor

> I don't see a problem with that.
> 
> First off, _love_ the name. Jager is pretty much my new favorite word for hunter. Actually, I guess it's pretty much everyone's new favorite word, since Pacific Rim and Attack on Titan became things.


Actually my number two had someone veto my original name Ubiytsa(russian) so i went with my number 2. Had no clue that was what Jäger meant.




> It still needs Track as a bonus feat- the very first Mythos assumes you have Track but doesn't require it as a prerequisite. Plus, you know, it's a Ranger. You shouldn't even need to take an Excellency to have Track, and Mythos classes already hand out bonus feats like pretzels.


So I forgot it was a feat in 3.5 its not in PF.




> Afraid I don't have anything for Mythos Point gaining methods, though. I generally just think of Mythos Points as generally 'I got rid of this much money in whatever way' and don't put much further thought into it outside of Mythos-specific methods like sundering abilities.


I'm likely goring to be reworking that section. It needs reformatting. Namely people seem to take the gaining options as the limited way to how to gain mythos points which is just incorrect. Its suppose to be a guideline providing vague examples.

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## Gideon Falcon

So, remember what we were talking about with the Proidos, and how it might work better as just an extension of the Kreikiri? I kinda ran with that. Hope that's alright, Roko10.

*Spoiler: Proidos Option:*
Show

*Alternate Kreikiri: Proidos*
With this variant, any Mythos using the Heal skill instead use a Craft (Mad Science) skill, and {Splintered} Mythos grant their bonus accordingly (also applying to checks made to craft Devices, see below). The Proidos abilities are based off Intelligence in place of Wisdom, wherever applicable. In addition, Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker no longer allows the creation of Magic Item functions as part of grafts on its own, but see below. A number of Mythos are otherwise altered, replaced, or removed as noted below. The Proidos refers to their Mythos as the Makers Mythos, rather than the Kyniteros Mythos. They may also gain Mythos Points by funding scientific research and so on.
*
Exceptional:*

*Madmans Laborious Tinkered Panoply {Splintered}*

Mages and Warlocks of many kinds command reality to bend to their will through complex magic rituals or eldritch bloodlines, and think themselves kings. You, however, you surpass their works through sheer dedication, passion, and understanding. Your workings are wonders, legends in the mold, and all the magic in the world pales in comparison to the feats of SCIENCE!
You may craft Magic Items as if you had the requisite feats, and a Caster Level equal to your class level. [Note: Would it be clunky or flavorful to instead base it off of your ranks in Craft minus 3?] Your understanding of Mad Science is sufficient that you need not know or supply any of the spells needed, save for Spell Completion or Spell Trigger Items such as wands or scrolls, in which case you require either a scroll of the spells needed for you to copy from or a willing spellcaster capable of using the spell; Items which require feats other than Item Creation feats, such as Metamagic Rods, require similar considerations.
While the costs of each Magic Item are calculated normally (including the XP cost you must expend), the time and labor needed is instead determined through Craft checks as a mundane item- though your works are far from mundane. The Craft DC for a magic item is equal to 15 plus the Caster Level of the item.
The items you create with this Mythos are drastically different in form than those made by regular methods; an Apparatus of the Crab or Clockwork Armor is far closer to what you create than the average mystical device. Scrolls you make do not necessarily take the form of papers that must be read, more like ranged alchemical mixtures or peculiar explosives as appropriate to the spell- magic weapons gain their powers from bizarre mechanisms and attachments only someone of your skill could really figure out. Items made with this Mythos are hereafter known as Devices, and abilities that reference them do not apply to other items made or used. Oh, also you can make Alchemical items as Devices normally.
When crafting a Device, you may choose to expend additional gold on useless improvements (Painting it an extremely expensive shade of red, solid gold-plated rims, built-in bottle opener) that do not and cannot confer actual mechanical benefits. Gold Pieces spent in such a way confer Mythos Points as normal (And they dont increase the market value if you sell your inventions, cheater).
Special: If you also possess the Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker mythos, you may freely craft Devices such that while they may not be used normally, they may instead be incorporated into a graft to confer their benefits to the recipient, although this adds the Devices Caster Level to the DC of the graft. The Device must still be crafted normally before being placed into the graft, but this otherwise works as originally noted.
Special: If you also somehow possess the Heroic Panoply-Forging Puissance Bellator Mythos, then its effects are fused with those of this Mythos, essentially allowing you to arbitrarily increase the above DC in order to craft faster or use esoteric Exotic Ingredients in place of spells when needed, and allows any Mythos or Manifestations that improve Heroic Panoply-Forging Puissance to apply to the crafting of Devices as normal. [Note: Since this Mythos ignores spell prerequisites for most items, you may want to grant some small bonus if they grab the Exotic Ingredients for the spells anyway, for thematic reasons.)
Special: Certain Manifestations and later Mythos have the [Template] Descriptor. Unless otherwise noted, you may only apply a single [Template] to an item, and adding a [Template] to an item makes it a Device.

*Basic Manifestations:*
_Scavenging Reverse-Engineering Forge_: If you get your hands on another magic item, you can directly consume its materials into virtual GP and XP to use when crafting Devices, much like an Artificer; this amounts to the same amount of gold and experience that would normally be expended in crafting the item (half the market price in GP, 1/25 the price in XP), and this amount remains with you until you either consume it in crafting a device, or divest it for Mythos Points. You may also harvest this material from defeated Constructs, as if harvesting Graft Points via Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker, except granting 10 gp for every graft point you would gain. If you do have Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker, you may harvest graft points from Constructs, or gain double graft points from them if you could already harvest from them.

_Kinetic Weapons are Just Better_ [Template]: You may make an additional change in projectile weapons that must be reloaded, or in melee bludgeoning or piercing weapons. The weapons damage die increases by one size, and it ignores up to two points of AC from armor or natural armor. However, ranged weapons increase the reload action by one step (Free to Move, Move to Standard, Standard to Full Round, Full Round or longer takes 1 more round), and melee weapons may only gain the effects for a single attack with a swift action to activate it, then requiring another swift action to rearm it before it can be activated again. Ranged weapons with this template are considered firearms. This template costs 25 gp to apply.

_Laser, Plasma, and Beams, Oh My_ [Template]: You may further improve melee slashing weapons or to any ranged weapon. The weapons attacks resolve against the targets touch AC (though it is not otherwise considered a touch attack), and deal untyped damage, but do not add the wielders Strength bonus to damage and ranged weapons decrease their damage die by one step. Ranged weapons with this template do not consume ammunition, instead requiring an action to cool it off every 5 shots that takes the same action as reloading it (Free for a bow, Move for a Light Crossbow or Free with Rapid Reload, etc.). Melee weapons with this template weight ¼ as much due to the blade being essentially weightless. Ranged weapons with this template are considered firearms. This template costs 25 gp to apply to an item.

_Feather-Light Armor_ [Template]: You may alter a suit of armor to become far more flexible and maneuverable, panels shifting automatically with the wearers motions to accommodate them. The Spell Failure chance of this armor decreases by 15%, and the Armor Check Penalty and Max Dexterity Bonus decrease and increase respectively by your Intelligence modifier. If the ACP would decrease below zero, the armor instead applies no reduction to movement speed, does not prevent running, and does not count its weight against the wearers encumbrance. This template costs 25 gp to apply.

_Powering the Armor_ [Template]: You may create a specialized suit of armor that, while bulky, grants greater strength to the wearer. The armor weighs twice as much, doubles its ACP, and decreases its Maximum Dexterity bonus by 4 (minimum 0), but it also increases its AC bonus by half (round up), and grants the wearer and untyped +2 Strength and +10 land speed. This template costs 25 gp to apply.

_Explosions are Always the Answer_ [Template]: You may change any projectile weapon to fire alchemical items instead of its normal ammunition. It still uses the same range and attack rolls, and deals half its normal damage in bludgeoning damage to the primary target. You may instead apply this template to an alchemical item that deals damage, in which case the damage increases to 1d6 damage per class level, and half that much as splash damage. Such an item is, obviously, perfect for use with weapons modified with this template. Either way, it costs 25 gp to apply this template.

_Superior Vibrating Cutting Edge_ [Template]: You may add additional moving parts to a weapon that deals slashing or piercing damage, turning its blade into a gnashing mass of teeth. Its critical threat range increases by 1, which stacks with and is applied before Improved Critical to a maximum of 15-20. On the other hand, the wielder cannot use the weapon to deal nonlethal damage or intentionally hold back to deal less damage- it just keeps going. Further, it makes a lot of noise and inflicts a -10 penalty on Move Silently and Hide checks. The effects of this template can be switched off as a swift action by the wielder, negating the benefits and penalties until it is turned back on as another swift action. This template costs 25 gp.

_Two Weapons for the Price of One_ [Template]: You may fuse two weapons together into a single Device, similar to the Shifting weapon ability, but with less scope but greater applicability. Choose two weapon forms for the Device, which need not be of the same type, size, or complexity. If one form is a two-handed weapon, the other form may be a pair of light or one-handed weapons (which need not be matching), such as a Greatsword which turns into a Longsword and Light Steel Shield, a Longbow which turns into a pair of Shortswords, or a Heavy Crossbow which turns into a hand crossbow and a dagger. Switching between forms is the equivalent of drawing a weapon, meaning a wielder with Quick Draw may do so as a free action, even between iterative attacks.

*Advanced Manifestations:*
_Wall-Hammering Guns_ (Requires Kinetic Weapons are Just Better): Weapons improved with the Kinetic template ignore the first 8 points of hardness of any objects they target.

_Scorching, Freezing, or Shocking?_ (Requires Lasers, Plasma and Beams, Oh My): Weapons improved with the Lasers template may be further augmented to deal one of Fire, Electricity, or Cold damage instead of untyped damage, as chosen during construction.

_Compact Armor_ (Requires Feather-Light Armor): Armor improved with the Feather-Light template takes only a full round action to don or doff, and can be folded into a storage mode two sizes smaller than the intended wearer, such as a satchel or briefcase.

_Walking Armory_ (Requires Powering the Armor): Armor improved with the Powered template also holds weapon mountings for offensive devices to be attached. You may incorporate one such weapon for every three class levels, minimum two, and attached weapons may be wielded hands-free in addition to any wielded normally.

_Robotic Buddy Building_ (Requires Monster-Making Beast-Lord): Creating a Creature with the Construct type only costs half as many graft points. In addition, when creating a Construct Creature, you may use crafting materials equal to 10 gp per graft point to supply up to half the cost of creating the Creature. If you do so, the Creature also counts as a Device.

*Know thy Weapons [Whole]*
Prerequisite: Madmans Laborious Tinkered Panoply

When wielding a Device as a weapon, you may treat your BAB as equal to your class level if it is lower.

*Basic Manifestations:*
_Point and Shoot_: You gain Point Blank Shot and Far Shot as bonus feats

_Close Quarters Kerfuffle_: You gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and Gauntlets you make into Devices increase their damage dice by one size.

*Meat-Shearing Butchers Scalpel* Change:
	As a Proidos, you may choose a masterwork one-handed Bludgeoning weapon for this Mythos, which becomes your Wrench and is a masterwork tool for Craft (Mad Science) checks.

*Fantastic Mythos:
*
*Ingenious Supranormal Artifice [Splintered]*
Prerequisite: Madmans Laborious Tinkered Panoply, Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker

Any Device you create in the form of a Weapon or Armor gains an appropriate Enhancement bonus equal to one third of your class level.

Furthermore, rather than simply incorporating Devices into grafts, you may instead incorporate grafts into Devices. Only one graft may be attached to a given device, unless it also counts as a creature (such as a Golem or a Created Creature with the Construct type).
Most grafts simply confer their benefits to the wearer or user of the Device; a cape with a Flesh feature would defend the wearer with its heat-treated tri-mithril alloy weaving, a belt with two Limbs would make the wearer quadrupedal, a pair of bracers with Eye features would have a sensor grid with active display, and a wand with the Spike feature would double as a stabbing implement (well, a more effective one than normally, anyway). In some cases, when this wouldnt quite make sense, the Device itself might gain the benefit, such as a sword with an Iron Flesh feature thats more resilient than normal. In addition, Armors made into Devices may be given Flesh augments without adding Flesh feature into the graft, since they already do that job, and Weapon Devices may have augments (or Mutations, if applicable) applied as if they were similar natural weapons; a mace could be augmented as if it were a violent fin, for example, or a spear could be treated as a Bite attack, or a sword as a Claw. Also, if a Device has a graft which grants a natural armor bonus to AC, you may construct it to grant that bonus as an Armor or Shield bonus instead, assuming it is of sufficient size and shape to do so (be it actual Armor or Shields, or cloaks or clothing of some sort).

*Basic Manifestations:*
_Bizarre and Improbable Gunnery_: You may apply two [Templates] to a Device at once, applying the benefits and drawbacks of both of them. For example, a Kinetic Laser Heavy Crossbow would deal the same damage die as normal, but typeless damage, ignore two points of AC, and require a Full Round Action to cool off every five shots; A Laser Explosive longbow would fire alchemical items, but also deal typeless damage to the main target equal to half a d6. If you apply the Two Weapons for the Price of One template, and the other template can only be applied to one of the forms, you may add another template to only the other form (for example, a Warhammer/Crossbow with Explosions Are Always the Answer may apply Close-Range Ordinance Delivery to the Warhammer form).

_Infinite Dakka Sufficiency Gap_ [Template]: You may enhance a projectile weapon to fire much, much faster. Its damage die decreases by one, but it deals that damage twice on a successful attack roll (including modifiers). It consumes ammunition at twice that rate, however it becomes able to store twice your class level in ammunition in a magazine before needing to reload, which takes a move action unless the weapon would normally take longer (this may be reduced by the Rapid Reload feat). This template requires 50 gp in materials to apply.

_Close-Range Ordinance Delivery_ [Template]: You have your own way of giving melee weapons an extra Punch. Similar to the Kinetic template, this is not always active: it takes a free action to activate before making an attack- if it hits, it deals double damage as an explosive charge detonates. The weapon may store five charges at a time; one charge may be reloaded as a move action, or a new magazine as a Full Round action (this may be reduced by Rapid Reload). This template costs 50 gp, and the explosive charges cost 1 gp per 5-round magazine.


Any ideas for things I missed or can improve? I kept a lot of stuff close to the original, just drastically compressed it along the lines of some of the higher-tier Kreikiri Mythos. I'll go over the Excellencies later, what few there are can be ported over pretty easily.

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## Theseventh

Looks awesome Gideon! I'm so glad it was taken down this route, it really does work quite well with the Krikiri. Mechanically at least. From a fluff perspective would take some real stretching but honestly mechanics come first. Beautiful fluff with poor mechanics is just disappointing. I can't wait to see more, and if you have ideas on some higher tier stuff and want some help hammering out the details I would be happy to help. Always love to see my favorite class get some new toys.

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## Morphic tide

Personally, if we have to make Anthol classes (that's the term settled on, right?) have subclasses to represent more ideas, I think we should probably make the base classes more distinct in their baseline to save Excellencies from baseline competence (and as such fix the floor) and have more ability for side competencies to take effect by broadening what the archetype they represent is. We should only need one Anthol class on a build for a decent interpretation of Batman, he's just too iconic. I'd go with Bellator as the go-to, as it's the "any means necessary warrior" as a developing myth, which would necessitate having utility items, crafting included, and unarmed combat options. Also investigation, but there's no reason that can't actually be included as skill-based "hit the weak point for massive damage" combat's utility side (overlap with a potential Mythic Assassin/Rogue is problematic, but grand tales of assassination are few and far between, even today. Seeing as how the ideal of assassins is to not be known for anything other than deeds being done, with who and how being unknowns, they don't really fit Mythos in the first place).

The former works perfectly fine with the thematics as-is, particularly given that some of the more popular modern heroes (which we should focus on for the Bellator, being that it's the warrior-hero myth that has yet to be finished. An archetype that hasn't fully formed) are self-made, creating their own means of heroics as tools, then mastering the use of the tools they made. Iron Man _could_ be constructed as a Bellator perfectly fine, given this interpretation of the Bellator ("The Iron Mythos" also just _begs_ for Iron Man expies).

We should probably work out character archetypes that fit with what Mythos is, match each existing Anthol class to _one_ archetype, then see how the Anthol classes need adjusted to fit the archetype fully. Then work out how to construct an Anthol class for each archetype that doesn't fit. The mad genius isn't a new thing at all, tales of such things go back to crazed alchemists and insane magi seeking immortality, everlasting youth, the secret to making life or simply the destruction of great cities. What _is_ new is the archetype doing it through strange application of the mundane, taking common knowledge and abusing it, rather than uncovering arcane secrets and wonders beyond what mortal men should ever see. The mad scientist is the same archetype as the crazed alchemist, but through a lens of man having tools with which to change the world, if only one were to assemble them, rather than by uncovering strange secrets outside the realms of man.

Subclassing separate Mythos onto a base class should be like that. The same idea, but through a very different lense that doesn't fit with the original idea. The mad genius's default Anthol form should be the Mythic Mage or Alchemist, then the Mad Scientist would be a subclass for a strange new version of the old archetype. The Titan shifts to adopt the odd new thing in it's domain, . The Bellator, then, would be truly bizarre for being a _new_ Titan, a Myth without precedent, an Archetype without predecessor or kin. The idea of the warrior-hero that made his own tools of greatness through only his own work is a _very_ new thing, as mastery was often segmented. Our modern idea of the sword-mage is something not part of any serious mythologies, at least not commonly, as the Mage and the Warrior were considered utterly different, even incompatible, archetypes. The Eastern Ki-warriors are punch-wizards, people who's magic is inherently mated to their physique and as such their strength innately grows with their mystical power because the two are one and the same, which is different from mastering two different arts to use them in unison beyond what either could do alone.

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## Gideon Falcon

That's what I did... the Kreikiri is about mad biologists creating fleshy monstrosities, I added a new lens of the mad mechanic, creating monstrosities of metal instead of meat.

As for higher tier ideas, I don't really have much. Combining devices, grafts, and creatures, you can already accomplish pretty much anything you could think of for the mad scientist, and any ideas I could have for a more powerful powered armor are beautifully accomplished through the Singularity of Life Mythos and the Steel Emperor Forge Master Epic Prestige class- hence the note making the first Mythos synergize with the abilities of said other class, which only requires three feats and a few Mythos/Excellency slots to qualify for without even touching the actual Bellator class.

What I _do_ have a few ideas for is an epic class for the Epifovian- a bit neglected, being somewhat niche, but I realized that it works perfectly for an update of Magikeeper's Epic Ozodrin prestige progression, which he never got to bringing up to par with his updated version of the base class. The main class features of the original PrC can easily be ported into new Exalted and Sempiternal Mythoi, and the Epifovian was already specifically meant to evoke the same ideas as the Ozodrin. I just need to figure out exactly what I should have as the actual in-built class features before taking Mythos, but other than that there's just room for plenty of ideas for epic extensions of the Epifovian concepts, and a need for the Immemorial capstone Mythos.

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## Morphic tide

> That's what I did... the Kreikiri is about mad biologists creating fleshy monstrosities, I added a new lens of the mad mechanic, creating monstrosities of metal instead of meat.


...I think there's a bit of a disconnect in that everyone's been thinking in terms of a character concept rather than a character archetype, which is what Titan-based Mythos is supposed to be to my understanding. The Taramacht is not, strictly speaking, a particular kind of Berzerker. The Taramacht is _every_ rage-fueled warrior, _every_ combatant driven by fury, _every_ person who's motive is hate. The Monster _is_ rage, _is_ hate, _is_ destruction, not merely an incarnation of such. That's what the Titans of Narrative are, they're _archetypes and ideas_ personified, not particular characters. They're actually, in part, made of every character centered on their Idea or Archetype...

As an aside, The Sun in the Mythos Multiverse is formed from two Lawgivers (basically illegal immigrants from The Far Lands) breaking what they were. The Fool, a being of infinite potential never to realize it because it's nature is to have infinite unrealized potential, and The Shadow, literally opposition made manifest. The Sun is defined as everything they are not. Omnipotence without any possible challenge was the Sun's peak. This resulted in becoming a _literal_ black hole sue, mind you, so he split himself into eight pieces...

The point is that the main Mythos timeline has the Shadow come back when The Sun compromised on his purity and obedience. When he compromised on his power, the Fool may have returned. As The Fool is _limitless_ potential, unable to be met, and Anthos can have vital characteristics separate from their Lawgiver/Titan, an Anthol class for The Fool could be a metagish, being behind others in everything, but having so many more things to do the others are, mostly, left in the dust overall. The potential is never truly met, but it's worked on. Basically the Mythic Factotum, decent capacity for everything. Possibly with a side of the Chameleon PRC for swapping partial competence from day to day.

I also can't get over the idea of making Mythos Points on something be losses from something that has actual benefit, like a Mythic Craftsman gaining points based on using excessively expensive materials or selling at a loss, then gaining points based on how much more the materials costed than the item's actual value.

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## Gideon Falcon

In your previous post, you described that a variant class should be the same archetype, but through a different lens. The Proidos and Kreikiri fit that description, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Maybe I'm just not getting the analogies. The archetype of a mad genius is what the Proidos is going for, but mechanically and flavorfully that archetype was already occupied by something focused on a different aspect, so I incorporated it to focus on a different aspect, which seems to be what you're saying I should be doing.

In terms of the Mythos point gain, I can remove that clause if everyone agrees it's bad, but I felt it was keeping with the theme- it has to be an expenditure that has no mechanical benefit. I thought it would be fun to have some incentive for ridiculous doohickeys built into your devices, like a built-in wafflemaker on your death tank.

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## Morphic tide

> In your previous post, you described that a variant class should be the same archetype, but through a different lens. The Proidos and Kreikiri fit that description, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Maybe I'm just not getting the analogies. The archetype of a mad genius is what the Proidos is going for, but mechanically and flavorfully that archetype was already occupied by something focused on a different aspect, so I incorporated it to focus on a different aspect, which seems to be what you're saying I should be doing.


I'm actually fine with somewhat narrow ideas, but the thing is that they're rather specific ones. Which is good for grounding mechanics, but a bit bad for the character variety. If you can _only_ staple on abnormal limbs and make fleshy monsters from scratch, then it's pretty narrow and the concept probably isn't broad enough for the entities Anthols draw power from.

But this is more about issues I have with the basis of the system itself and the way it was picked up than problems I have with what's been made. The Mythos classes are decently well made, though I hate the design philosophy behind them as it's the epitome of list classes. Most don't list even their few actual features under separate names! It's seriously so bad that actual advice from Xefas on how to make a Mythos class apparently includes shifting number fixes to _make the class function_ into Excellencies, a list that can be misused and result in a nonfunctional character. Mythos abilities can't actually afford to be off the wall utilities and niche stuff, because the class has nothing but them, resulting in options being oversaturated with combat mechanics.




> In terms of the Mythos point gain, I can remove that clause if everyone agrees it's bad, but I felt it was keeping with the theme- it has to be an expenditure that has no mechanical benefit. I thought it would be fun to have some incentive for ridiculous doohickeys built into your devices, like a built-in wafflemaker on your death tank.


It's more that requiring _no_ benefit, even if it's only mechanical benefit that's excluded, causes a bundle of problems, as determining a lack of benefit is very difficult. To use your same example, I'd not have the wafflemaker alone provide Mythos points. Now, if it involves an anti-gravity device to hold the batter in place while precision telekinesis shapes it into a waffle iron and a heat ray on ultra-low settings is used for actually cooking, and you have vastly, unbelievably cheaper ways of doing it like a conventional skillet and waffle iron, you get a pile of Mythos Points. The difference in cost between how it's actually done and how cheaply it can be done, or between gains and cost, is then used as the scaling factor.

Really, the problem I have is just that it's too prone to arguments and bothersome DMs getting in the way of it, thereby pinning the classes to extremely narrow ability access due to a low number of available options. If you have a built-in wafflemaker, and means of using it for more general food preperation, then the DM can claim you gain mechanical benefit for having vital food preparation being in your very hard to get into death tank. It's a silly argument, but there's good reason for it. It's easy to prove there's cheaper ways of doing it, and hard to prove you don't benefit from it.

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## Gideon Falcon

Okay, so it's not a problem you have with the Proidos, it's a problem you have with the Kreikiri. That makes more sense. In that case, the Proidos is probably an important addition because it does generalize the idea- the flavor for all of the Mythos describe it endlessly as being meat and flesh and meat and more meat, whereas mechanically there's only a bit of tweaking for it to be describable as machinery- said tweaking being what I'm trying to get at with the Proidos expansion. Even the higher tier Mythos can be rehashed- Necrotic Meat Mutation? Nanite plague. Living World Shintai? Meet GLaDOS. Flesh fortress becomes an energy grid with Protoss-style Pylons and material-fabrication mechanisms.

I don't really know how to address the 'List Classes' problem. That's starting to go a bit over my head.

You make a good point about the excess expenditure. Is there a better way of expressing it that still gets at the concept I was going for? If not, I can just scrap the idea and put in some fluff lines or something. Maybe an excellency that gives a discount for cheap magic items with completely irrelevant uses- something that could, hypothetically, squeeze out some extra optimization, but generally just makes it easier to do random mad scientist crap for no reason.

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## roko10

Dammit, guys, stop adopting my ideas and doing them better than I could. It makes me feel inadequate.  :Small Tongue: 

In all seriousness, though, that's a pretty good take on the Proidos you have there, Gideon. I don't have anything much to say or contribute except to keep up the good work, considering I'm kind of busy and my interest in the Mythos system has kind of waned.

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## Gideon Falcon

Thank you. I'm sorry I couldn't come up with much more to fill.the gaps, and I definitely wish I had ideas for Legendary/Exaltedythos, but I do think it provides a better magic item effect for the graft system, which originally had a bit of an exploit- making a graft as a full round action as an upgrade is fine, but making the magic item components to them in a full round action obsoletizes every fast-crafting ability in existence.

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## VoodooPaladin

> The Taramacht is not, strictly speaking, a particular kind of Berzerker. The Taramacht is _every_ rage-fueled warrior, _every_ combatant driven by fury, _every_ person who's motive is hate.


I've found it helpful to present Mythos classes as being about the pure expression of a power source, not any particular skillset.

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## Gideon Falcon

So, back to that Cosmic Horror adaptation I mentioned a few posts back, does anyone have a good idea for some basic class features to give it? Most of the original Cosmic Horror PrC features work better as Mythos, and the other Epic Mythos PrCs had more than just the initial scaling feature- so far I just have the bare bones dual-progression structure, removing the redundancy of Unearthly Power from Ozodrin and the enhancement bonus from Epifovian. I gave it some bonus feats, too, because Ozodrins _love_ Aberrant feats. Does anyone have ideas for suitably Eldritch Abomination-y features to slap on the chassis? Or am I wrong about separating the original version's features?

I'm also at a loss for a suitable Immemorial Mythos capstone, if anyone has any ideas for that.

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## Gideon Falcon

Apologies for the double-post, but it looks like things aren't going very fast around here and I've ended up figuring some stuff out.

As it stands, I think I've got the class pretty well made out except for the Immemorial Mythos, but I still would like second opinions on the balance. The fluff still has a lot of room to add more, and I don't like the current name for it, so any input there would be greatly appreciated. I may need to take another post to fit it all in.

*Anathemic Incarnation of Supracosmic Horror*
Note: This update uses elements from both Magikeepers mostly complete Ozodrin update, his original PrC, and Xefas Mythos (how appropriate) subsystem. 

_I have seen the dark universe yawning where the black planets roll without aim, where they roll in their horror unheeded, without knowledge, or lustre, or name._

The Anathemic Incarnation of Supracosmic Horror
Prerequisites:
Knowledge (The Planes) 24 Ranks, Intimidate 24 Ranks
Feats: Unnatural Legacy, any three other Aberrant feats
Class Features: Manifest Form, Far-Spawn Taint
Mythos: Eldritch Abomination Wakening Rite

Class Skills:
The Anathemic Incarnation of Supracosmic Horrors class skills are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)
Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + int mod

Hit Die: d8
(No table, it's redundant- Mythos at every even level and 7th, Sempiternal Mythos unlocked at 7th, half-progression BaB, and what you see below)

*Class Features:* The following are the class features of the Anathemic Incarnation of Supracosmic Horror

*Horror* (Ex): Beginning at first level, the Incarnation becomes the next step further removed from mortal understanding. Their creature type is considered the more beneficial of Aberration or Outsider for any purpose, such as coming back from the dead. Aberrations, mad creatures, and creatures tied to the Far Realms begin one category closer to Helpful as they recognize your kinship to them.
	In addition, your levels in Anathemic Incarnation of Supracosmic Horror continue to progress you Manifest Form, Features, Strange Movement, Primary Stomach, Unearthly Power, Aberrant Affinity, and Menacing Demeanor class features, and you gain 10 additional form points each level.

*Eldritch Legend* (Ex): The Incarnation is a being of Myth, but a myth spoken only in hushed whispers or deranged chants, for fear of the toll that knowledge may take upon their minds. This duality of fame and anonymity lends itself well to their own understanding of their entire natures. The Anathemic Incarnation of Supracosmic Horror counts Ozodrin levels as levels in a Mythos class, and Epifovian levels count towards their total Ozodrin levels for the purpose of existing class features. In addition, at 1st level, they may choose to either change all Ozodrin class features to become based on Wisdom instead of Charisma (including Form points and the maximum number of natural attacks), or change all Epifovian class features and Mythos to be based on Charisma in place of Wisdom (including Unreal Existence and Far-Spawn Taint).

*Far-Spawn Taint* (Ex): The enhancement bonus to natural attacks from Far-Spawn Taint is subsumed by the bonus provided by Unearthly Power, except the bonuses provided by a delayed fear effect increase the enhancement bonus by the same amount. Furthermore, at 1st, 4th, and 8th level, the bonus for each category doubles mathematically (to a total of octuple at 8th level), and the bonus can no longer be disrupted by a stronger fear effect, instead renewing the duration and using the new level of fear.

*The Horrors Mythos*: With the Anathemic Incarnation of Supracosmic Horror class, an Epifovian continues to gain new Mythos, which follow the same rules as The Nightmares Mythos, but these are unique to this class, and express the Horrors Mythos own legends, rather than those of the common Epifovian. New Mythos Known gained from this class may be drawn from the Epifovian's pool of available Mythos, or from the new Mythos listed below. A Anathemic Incarnation of Supracosmic Horror adds his class levels to his Epifovian levels to determine his Mythos "class level" for the purposes of Mythos whose effects are dependent on class level.

Some Mythos are listed as "Sempiternal", which is the fifth tier of Mythos, above Exalted, and the Anathemic Incarnation of Supracosmic Horror gains the ability to begin learning them at 7th level. The cost of learning a new Sempiternal Mythos, above the ones automatically granted by level, is 200,000 Mythos Points and 20,000xp.

*Infinitely Variable Dinosaur*: (Cookie if you get the reference) At 3rd level, your Manifest Form ability vastly improves. Instead of merely a single true form beneath your worldly (or otherworldly) guise, you have a number of true forms equal to one fourth of your Mythos class level, and may transition between any of them through the normal action of Manifest Form (shifting to a true form if you were already in one does not inflict the same fear effect as shifting from your Worldly Guise. That would be silly). With a standard action, you may add or remove a number of features equal to your Charisma modifier (as under the Rapid Form ability), and make the same amount of alteration to any or all of your inactive forms as well. You may change half as many features as a move action, or one fourth as many as a swift action. If you have Shifting Shape, you may change the location of one feature per four levels as a swift action, or twice as many as a move action, when using it for only that purpose.

*Bonus Feats*: At 4th level and again at 8th level, the Cosmic Horror may select any nonepic Aberrant Feat they qualify for as a bonus feat, or the Cosmic Horror may choose from the following: Effortless Flow, Harmonic Mass, Epic Farspawn, Hole in Time, Shunned Name, Unspeakable Name, Anathema, Unorthodox Union, Untouchable Abomination, Whispers of the Outer Spheres, Great Charisma, Great Strength, Great Dexterity, Great Constitution, Damage Reduction, Fast Healing, Extra Item Space, Epic Prowess.

*Infinite Depths of Terror* (Ex): Some foolish creatures may think there is a point where they cannot be frightened further. Such a silly idea. Beginning at 5th level, when you affect a creature with a fear effect that is already Panicked, the effect is not wasted (assuming the effect stacks)- no, you may inflict still further levels of fear in them. Such creatures gain a number of degrees of Terror, which work similarly to the normal degrees of fear effect- inducing the Shaken condition in a Panicked creature leaves them with one degree of Terror, while inflicting the Panicked condition on a creature that is Frightened leaves them Panicked with two degrees of Terror.
Each degree of Terror a creature possesses increases the penalties given by the Shaken condition by -2, and counts as normal for any effect which increases depending on the degree of a fear effect. Further, each round a creature with Terror must make a Will Save (DC 10+ their degree of Terror) or Cower for that round, losing their action as they are paralyzed with sheer dread. If a creature has at least ten degrees of Terror, they must make a second Will Save each round at the same DC (regardless of the success or failure of the first) or be rendered Confused for that round and take a single point of Wisdom damage for every ten degrees of Terror (although the Confused condition may be made irrelevant if they are also Cowering). A creature reduced to three or lower Wisdom through this method is rendered Insane until their Wisdom is raised to at least 3. These Will Saves are still considered to be against a fear effect, so relevant bonuses may apply.
Unfortunately, you may not use this ability on yourself. The bonuses from Far-Spawn Taint only apply up to Panicked, as you are continually inuring yourself to every new threshold you discover.

*Endless* (Ex): The Horror may end its existence in reality prime to become an imaginary denizen of any dreamscape it has ever created. (If they do not have that feature, then a new, rudimentary one is created without any augments). This ability does not take an action, can never be lost, and can be used even if the Horror is unable to use actions or even think (for example, if the Horror is dead or has had its soul erased by a deity). A Horror that uses this ability can no longer interact with reality prime, although it has absolute power within its dreamscape. A wish, miracle, or true resurrection effect cast upon any object in reality prime that would have counted as the Horror via its sinister image ability restores all of Horrors reality prime abilities and status as a creature from its original reality- similar to the less potent Fateless ability of the Ozodrin. Such a Horror may ignore any level loss, death, soul destruction, etc that may have occurred up to 10 minutes before it used this ability. A creature in reality prime can also revive the Horror by performing any sufficiently powerful ritual as determined by the DM. After using this ability the Horror may not re-enter reality prime for one day*, even if it is restored before that.
*In reality prime time.

*Exalted Mythos*:

*Spoiler: Exalted Mythos*
Show

*Fractal Manifold Fearful Symmetry:*
Requirements: At least six tentacles granted by Mythos or Excellencies

All tentacles you possess or shape have all the traits of any tentacles granted to you by Mythos. If you have Lineage-Celebrating Flesh Companion, you have as many familiars as you have tentacles. If you have the Element Bathed External Layer manifestation of Far-Realm descended Bodily Adaptation, all your tentacles have the granted weapon enchantments. Any tentacles you gain with Unnatural-Selection External Hypothesis are at full size (though it is not a valid choice for further iterations to emulate). If you have Inescapable Nightmare Tether, all your tentacles gain the increased reach and may tether opponents. This Mythos does not apply traits granted to a tentacle through Form Points and Augments.

*Anathemic Mastery of Space:*
Requirements: Strange Movement

Space and Time as known by mortals is a curious delusion to you. How can they think distance is so great when even their own simple magic can step between planes as easily as between rooms? For that matter, why are they surprised when you use the same connections they just barely tapped to follow them? Everything is close at hand for you.
	The first aspect of this Mythos is that you can see through all manner of spatial connections. You can see into any coterminous planes, such as the Shadow and Ethereal from the Prime Material, or into pocket dimensions or demiplanes such as Rope Tricks or Magnificent Mansions. You may also see the destination of any teleportation effect made from within line of sight, or the origin of any effect made into line of sight. In the latter case, the connection only lasts one round, but counts as both Line-of-Sight and Line-of-Effect for that duration.
	The second aspect of this Mythos means that your daily allotment of Strange Movement distance is instead measured per encounter- thus, an Ozodrin 8/Epifovian 12/Anathemic Incarnation of Supracosmic Horror 4 with two instances of the Strange Mover feat could move up to 120 per encounter. Further, you may expend 20 of Strange Movement as a move action to move anywhere within line of sight, such as to the other end of a teleport effect, otherwise acting the same as normal Strange Movement. Once per minute, you may use 40 of Strange Movement to do so as a Swift or Immediate action.
	Special: If you have the Shadow-Striding Rift Walk manifestation of the Bellowing Nocturnal Horror Manifest Mythos, you may apply its benefits to Strange Movement as well as Shadow Dancing.

*Great Cult of the Old Ones:*
Requirements: _Peasant-Subjugating Terror King
_
Your Leadership score from Peasant-Subjugating Terror King may continue to improve as if by the Epic Leadership feat. Further, your followers worship you as a deity, and are considered Fanatical towards you at all times.
If you have the Eclectic Mageocracy Establishment manifestation, your followers may be trained in Cleric instead of other spellcasting classes regardless of their highest mental ability score. Your Follower also gains spellcasting as a cleric of one third of their level (which does not stack with any cleric levels they may already have.) They draw their spells from you, and you grant the domains of Madness, your alignment (or equivalent), any elemental subtypes you possess, and Trickery.
If you have the Populace-Mutating Masters Trace manifestation, within the portion of followers that gain Aberration Blood and two other Aberrant feats, the higher level half of them gain yet another Aberrant Feat and the Pseudonatural template from Complete Arcana. Half of those followers, by their level, gain a fourth Aberrant Feat and the Half-Farspawn template without level adjustment. If you have at least 30 HD, then the highest level follower (that originally gained the Half-Farspawn template) instead gains the Epic Pseudonatural template from the Epic Level Handbook. If you have a cohort, it gains the Half-Farspawn template, Aberrant Blood, and four other bonus Aberrant feats just as your innermost circle of followers.

*Flowing Division of Form Dispersal*
Requirements: Ones Form in Miniature, _Incontemporary Roiling Flesh-Spawn Creation_

Once per encounter, as a full round action, you may separate yourself into two identical copies for a number of rounds equal to your class level. Your equipment is divided amongst the copies, and activated abilities share their uses between the two. Your hit points are evenly divided between the copies, but they share a single pool for any other point resources such as power points or Form Points. Soulmelds or similar effects are distributed like equipment. If you are struck by an attack that deals slashing damage, you may instead use this ability as an immediate action to negate all the slashing damage you would have taken (though not any other forms of damage attached to it, such as from a Fiery Blast weapon)

*Advanced Manifestation:*
_It Spreads Its Seeds By Combat_ (Requires Spawn feature): Instead of using the duplication ability in response to slashing damage, you may immediately form a Spawn feature if you have any available form points to put into it. You may transfer features onto this spawn instead of having to shape them, as the spawn is formed from the severed portion of your body- though the normal restrictions for features on spawn apply. The Spawn immediately separates, and if it can act on its own, it rolls its own initiative- if its initiative would be higher than the current turn, it takes its action immediately and then acts on its normal initiative the next round. Creating a Spawn in this way still negates the slashing damage, though the nature of the Spawn feature means you will likely still take damage.

*Nictophobic Atmospheric Attunement:*
Requirements: _Bellowing Nocturnal-Horror Manifest_

It is shocking, how simple and yet how prevalent is the fear of the dark. You are all too eager to prove to your prey that no mortal ever truly outgrows that fear, no matter how powerful they think they are.
	You radiate an aura out to 10 per Charisma modifier. Within this aura, all lighting is reduced by one degree- Natural sunlight becomes simply bright light, bright light becomes dim light, dim light becomes darkness, and darkness becomes magical darkness. Even supernaturally bright lights are assailed- any effect which deals damage based on light only deals half as much, and any blinding effect from bright light reduces its save DC by your Charisma modifier. Within your own space, light is lessened by yet another degree, though this has no additional effect on offensive light effects.
	As a standard action, you may dispel any and all supernatural light sources within 100, as if by a Greater Dispel Magic effect but with no caster level limit and using your Mythos class level. This also extinguishes any nonmagical sources of light within the area, be it bonfires or sunrods, instantly.
	If you have the Waiting in a Moonless Night manifestation, you may manifest up to four areas of magical darkness at a time, and each area doubles in size.
	You see perfectly in darkness of any level without penalty, to the same distances you could see in broad daylight. You add half you Mythos class level as a bonus on Spot checks within the radius of any Darkvision you had, however.

*Basic Manifestation:*
_Daylight Horror Paradox Infliction:_ You may suppress the aura provided by this mythos as a free action, however you, yourself, may still act as if light was decreased as normal for the purposes of abilities which require you to be standing in shadow- Though it may be bright as noon-day, your presence carries a metaphysical darkness that stains the world, and your prey almost yearns for the darkness to return to hide your terrible visage from their eyes.

*Expansive All-Encompassing Psyche:*
Requirements: _Dissociative Multi-Mentality Aegis_

Your mind is a vast, incomprehensible complex of personalities, memories, images, and things that, if mortal minds can even grasp them, they would puzzle at how it could be inside ones brain. The roiling landscape of minds grants you an extra standard or move action each round as other facets of you jerk your limbs in ways you hadnt had time to think of. While fusing your personalities, you instead gain an additional full compliment of actions (Standard and move or Full-Round, swift or immediate) each round.
Furthermore, you can pseudo-physically manifest this mindscape as a feature, as described below: 

*Spoiler: Dreamscape*
Show

*Dreamscape:* Cost - 20
_Appearance:_ Creatures can literally enter your imagination.
_Benefits:_ For the purpose of this feature, whatever reality/cosmetology your campaign has will be referred to as reality prime. 
Any victim you successfully devour wakes up in a reality of your own creation. This reality can in no way, shape, or form alter reality prime. Anything that enters your reality, is altered, and then leaves has their original state restored as though it were just a dream. You can otherwise do whatever you desire within your imaginary reality with the only restriction being what you know and the rate at which you perceive time. For example, a deity killing sword that works in your imagination is unlikely to work when you find a blacksmith to re-create that sword in reality prime. Basically, this is similar to being a DM within someone elses D&D game. A soul within your reality cannot be released by anything short of the direct interference of a deity in reality prime. You may, however, return any such soul to reality prime as a free action. You cannot control how time works in your dreamscape nor can your true body enter your dreamscape.
Special: Removing this feature does not destroy the dreamscape if any entities from reality prime exist within it. However, you have no power over the created dreamscape until you reform this feature for that dreamscape. A soul trapped within such a dreamscape can be freed by a wish, miracle, or true resurrection effect cast from reality prime. You can have more than one dreamscape at a time. All dreamscape augments may be added or removed to pre-existing dreamscapes of your creation.

Augments: The noted level requirements refer to your level in Anathemic Incarnation of Supracosmic Horror.

Nightmare Gateway: Additional cost 2
Required Feature(Stomach): You can create a fleshy door to your dreamscape along the walls of your stomach. From the outside the door appears to lead to nothingness, although anyone who enters is appears wherever you want in your dreamscape. The door is 5ft by 5ft, although multiple doors can be combined together to form one larger door. A creature cannot simply fall through the door  it must pass into the unknown of its own accord or be dragged/pushed through. This gateway is one-way, and does not even exist within your dreamscape. You may return any creature or object that enters your dreamscape this way to reality prime as a free action, and they appear in front of the Nightmare Gateway exactly the same as they were when first entering your dreamscape. Plane Shift and other transportation effects do not help a creature escape from your dreamscape.

Mind Breaking Dream: Additional cost 5
Any soul that leaves your dreamscape does so with mental scars from their stay. For every day a soul spent in your dreamscape you may give it any mental affliction as though by bestow curse. For example, you could give it a 50% chance of failing to perform any action (a mental effect) but you could not make its skin purple (a physical effect). Unlike other reality prime abilities, Mind Breaking Dream is based off the time rate of the dreamscape. In reality prime the affliction is an extraordinary effect that ignores immunities, and the mental afflictions can only be cured by wish, miracle, psychic chirurgery, or a similar effect. 

Engulfing Cosmos: Additional cost 15
Required level 4: Any creature that dies inside your stomach or within 5ft of you may have their soul pulled into your dreamscape should you so desire it. This includes parts of you defined by sinister image. A creature killed by one of your natural weapons is considered to have been within 5ft of you.
Special: You may apply this augment multiple times to the same dreamscape, increasing the range by 5ft each time after the first. Each instance of this augment after the first only costs 5 form points instead of 15.

Soul String: Additional cost 3
Required level 5 and Engulfing Cosmos: Any creature who escapes a dreamscape with this augment can be pulled into any dreamscape with this augment you posses, even if the original dreamscape is no longer under your control. The creature must be within range of your engulfing cosmos augment to be pulled into a dreamscape, and they may make a will save to resist the effect (DC 10 + ½ your level in classes that grant features + your charisma modifier). Using this augment is a swift action. Creatures created via the entity feature automatically fail their saves.
special: Applying this augment to a pre-existing dreamscape has no effect on creatures that escaped the dreamscape before this feature was applied (The effect is not retroactive). Removing this augment does not retroactively free creatures effected by it.

Mind Shattering Dream: Additional cost 5
Required level 6 and Mind Breaking Dream: This augment works like Mind Breaking Dream, except that for every week the soul spent in the dreamscape you may effect it as though by Greater Bestow Curse. This is in addition to the effect of Mind Breaking Dream.

Temporal Fantasy: Additional cost 1
Required level 7: You have complete control over the time of your dreamscape, allowing it to move as fast or slow as you desire. Abilities/effects from reality prime continue to work based off of reality primes time rate. For example, fast healing 5 from reality prime will heal 5 damage per reality prime round, even if that is the equivalent of 700 years in your dreamscape, and casting a spell would typically involve a reality prime standard action. Most cosmic horrors grant visitors imaginary versions of their reality prime abilities. 


Exit: Additional cost 4
Required level 8: You may pull yourself into the dreamscape as a full round action. You may still interact with the world outside via Sinister/Encroaching Image if you have it, although you are affected by reality prime rules while doing so. For example, even if you grant yourself infinite form points within your reality you must still obey your reality prime limits while interacting with reality prime. If someone hits you with a finger of death in reality prime, no imaginary powers will save you (although an item/effect hailing from reality prime could). This is considered an extraordinary ability. Many Horrors of this caliber abandon reality prime altogether, choosing to act as overdeities in realms of their own creation. As long as the Horror is not interacting with reality prime in any way nothing currently in reality prime can interact with the Horror (for example, not even a deity could pull such a Horror from its dreamscape).


*Mind-Etched Impending Image Encroachment:*
Requirements: Sinister Image

Those who bear witness to your terror will not soon forget the experience; as they will inevitably realize, they are not soon safe, either- For even the image of a fresh memory is a part of your face that watches them everywhere.
Any creature that has seen you within 1 hour per Mythos class level counts for your Sinister Image ability as if they were scrying your location. Any creature suffering from a Confusion or Insanity effect you inflicted similarly counts as long as their condition remains untreated.

*Intramomentary Termination Encompassment:*
Requires: _Unstoppable Grave-Crowding March, All Encompassing Torment Jurisdiction, Non-Euclidean Embracing Dimensions_

The flowing substance of your many claws and teeth are a constant danger, almost a hurricane of bone and keratin, shredding apart anything so foolish as to approach- or so unfortunate as to be approached.
	You gain Improved Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. When making attacks of opportunity allowed by the Unstoppable Grave-Crowding March mythos, you may do so up to three times with each natural weapon you possess in a round.
	Your reach is calculated as if you were of the highest size you could count as via Non-Euclidean Embracing Dimensions- Including that it starts as if your space were appropriate to that size. You may also take the Further Skewed Existence Extrapolation manifestation two additional times.
	No matter what space you actually take up, which may easily be essentially none, you may still count your space as being that of the largest size you count as- for example, for gaining an Attack of Opportunity against creatures entering your space, or moving around in your space. You need not be at the center of this space, you determine where the space lies at the end of any movement or as the equivalent of a 5-ft step, so long as it still contains your entire actual space. Further, each round, any creature that enters your space at least once during their turn or that begins its turn in your space takes 15d6 damage, plus the bonus from Unearthly Power, plus 1.5 times your Strength modifier, plus any bonuses you have to damage rolls with natural weapons. This damage is Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing damage, and counts as Magic, Epic, and your alignment for the purpose of damage reduction- and further, half of the damage pierces through any form of Regeneration. You may freely choose to spare certain creatures from this damage while they share your space. You may make an immediate Grapple attempt against any creature damaged in this way, without having to roll a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity.
	Any creature killed by the above ability counts as being fully Devoured, and allows for an immediate Demoralize attempt at any creatures with line of sight to the grisly spectacle.
Special: Indescribable Living Dead-World Dread Tyrant does not increase your space for this ability, nor can you center your space on things in your Flesh Domain that might otherwise count as you. This effect is still tied to your actual position, so youll have to use your other space-bending powers to pervert the natural order any more. Sorry not sorry.

*Rider of Insanity:*
Prerequisites: _The Noblest Steed is Bound by Flesh_

You may form features on your Special Mount as if it was you- such features benefit your mount in the same way they would have aided you (possibly allowing it to use Devour, Swallow Whole and Jaws that Bite, for example, if given a mouth and a stomach), and the Mount uses any abilities granted on its own initiative and actions. It may even be given Puppets and Spawn in this way, deducting from the Mounts hit points in the latter case, and controlling them as it wishes.
	You may communicate telepathically with your mount from any distance, and perceive through its senses, and vice versa. It counts as you or an image of you for the purpose of Sinister and/or Encroaching image (so a portrait of your steed is no less dangerous if it does not depict its rider). It transforms with you when you use Manifest Form (thus revealing any features placed on it in the form chosen), also allowing you to hide any unusual features it has when in your worldly guise (such as the granted tentacle attacks or any Aberrant Feats it has taken) in the same way you can.
	Lastly, your Special Mount gains the Pseudonatural template as described in the ELH. The Alternate Form described by the template is instead the form it takes when you are in your true form via Manifest Form, taking on its normal appearance in your Worldly Guise as mentioned before.
	If you have Pregenerate Husk Bestowment, your Animal Companion gains the same benefits as your Mount, and additionally may be augmented as if it itself were a Puppet feature (but not the Puppet Show augment).
	If you have Lineage-Celebrating Flesh Companion, you may augment your familiar as if you had the Conservative Form feat. Its already literally part of your body, you dont get anything else. Tough.



*Sempiternal Mythos:*

*Spoiler: Sempiternal Mythos*
Show

*Seamless Mastery of Time:*
Requirements: _Anathemic Mastery of Space_

Time, like Space, flows like a river around you, and you see the eternities within each moment, the time inbetween instants, and every disturbance is as obvious to you as the most prolonged events. You can see any events taking place in a faster time stream perfectly, such as the user of a Time Stop or Temporal Acceleration effect. Further, though you normally cannot act any faster, your perception is fast enough that you are never caught Surprised or Flat-Footed.
	Furthermore, you may expend 80 feet of Strange Movement in order to act as if under a Time Stop effect for 1 apparent round. This does not require an action, and may be used at any time, though only once per round. You may even use this ability to attack creatures under their own Time Stop effect or other form of accelerated time stream, in which case you can do so once per round in that creatures time (but only if such a creature is present- you cant continue using it under the assurance that someone, somewhere is in a faster time stream).

*The Black Goat in the Woods of a Thousand Young:*
Requirements: _Incontemporary Roiling Flesh-Spawn Creation, Peasant-Subjugating Terror King_

Your Progeny is vast, innumerable. Your name is whispered as the mother of a thousand monsters, spawn of your shapeless flesh. Your children grow and trickle through the world, ready to spread your terror to every shadow and crevice. You become able to form a new Feature, as detailed below:

*Spoiler: Entity*
Show

*Entity:* Cost - X
Appearance: You can bring forth the denizens of your imagination into reality prime.
Benefits: You can create a new creature from your own flesh or mind. The body either buds off from the Ozodrin or, if they have the Dreamscape Feature, emerges from a Nightmare Gateway. If the entity dies or is unformed its artificial soul returns to your mind or its original dreamscape (even if you do not still control the dreamscape) instead of going to whatever afterlife exists in reality prime. Soul trapping effects still function against the entity, however. The created entity is a medium sized 2HD aberration that uses the elite array for its ability scores. You may make all choices regarding feats and skills, with any skills you put ranks in becoming class skills for the racial HD of the created entity. The cost of the entity is equal to the total FP value of the features that comprise its body, chosen from features/augments you are capable of forming. The entity automatically has a torso(can be any shape), a head(optional), internal organs, and a way to breathe. The entity cannot have features from epic prestige classes (such as dreamscape), nor can it have spawn, puppet, or lure trap features. A form without eyes is blind, and a form without a mouth cannot speak. A form without limbs or tentacles has a land speed of 0, otherwise treat the entity's base land speed as 30ft before other modifiers. Note that aberrations must eat, so an entity that is not given a way to nourish itself will starve. The entity is infertile. The entities age categories are the same as a normal member of your race although you can choose to make it immortal. Every 24 hours the entity exists you regain up to 5 of the form points spent on it. Unforming the entity only returns points that you have not already regained, and if you have been refunded all of the points invested in the entity then it is no longer considered one of your features and cannot be unformed (although, if applicable, its soul still returns to your imagination upon death). You do not control the actions of the entity, although nothing stops you from creating an initial personality that wants to serve you. You may not spend more than 30% of your FP on the base cost of an entity, and an entity can only have 7 features + 4 per 30fp spent on the entity, rounded down. Basic Eyes count as 1/2 a feature. 
Special: The level adjustment of an entity equals [2 + (Base Cost)/30], rounded down. A gaze attack increases the entity's LA by 2, and every two natural attacks and/or limbs that can hold weapons beyond the fourth increases the entity's LA by 1 (So a ball with 5 tentacles and a mouth would have an additional +1 LA). The flowing shape mouth augment and the reality warping flesh augment increase the entity's LA by 2. Some of the augments below alter the level adjustment of the entity, as noted in their descriptions. The DM may choose to raise or lower the LA of an entity (or even make it LA -) at their own discretion.
Unlike other features, an Entity feature takes one minute to form even if you could normally form a feature more quickly then that. Unforming the entity take the normal amount of time as any other feature you possess.

Augments: The level requirements noted refer to your levels in Anathemic Incarnation of Supracosmic Horror.

Enhanced Potential Additional cost 2
The entity receives a +2 racial bonus to one of its ability scores.
Special: You can apply this augment to the same entity multiple times. Applying this augment to the same ability score more than once increases the cost by 1 each time. For example, applying this augment to strength three times would cost 2+3+4 = 9fp for a total racial bonus of +6 to strength. 
Every two applications of this augment beyond the first increases the entity's LA by 1, even if the applications are to different ability scores.

Decreased Potential Cost -1
The entity receives a -2 racial penalty to one of its ability scores.
Special: You can apply this augment to the same entity multiple times. You cannot apply this augment if doing so would reduce one of the entity's ability scores to 0 or less. If the entity's LA has been increased by the enhanced potential feature, then every three applications of this augment reduces that increase by one (For example, if the entity's LA has been increased by 2 due to enhanced potential, then 6+ applications of decreased potential would reduced that increase to +0 but could not otherwise lower the entity's LA)

Advanced form Additional cost 5
The entity gains an additional racial aberrant HD, possibly granting it additional feats/skills/etc.
Special: You can apply this augment to the same entity multiple times. Applying this augment more than once increases the cost by 5 each time. For example, applying this augment three times would cost 5+10+15 = 30 form points for a total of 3 extra aberrant HD. 
An entitys level adjustment is reduced by 1 (to a minimum of +0) for every two aberrant HD it possesses (rounded down). This does not include the initial two aberrant HD it gains by being an entity.

Transient Skill Additional cost 10
The entity gains a level in a class of your choice.
Special: You can apply this augment to the same entity multiple times. Applying this augment more than once doubles the cost each time. For example, applying this augment three times would cost 10+20+40 = 70 form points for a total of 3 class levels. 

Hidden Power Additional cost 2
The entity can conceal and/or release one or more of its features as a swift action. This is an extraordinary ability that does not use form points. You may place additional restrictions on this ability, such as an entity that can only use its tentacles at night.

Soul Stuffing Additional cost 2
The entity is controlled by an additional imaginary being. You may decide how dominance is determined  for example, one personality might be in control at night while another is in control during the day.
Special: If this ability is used in conjunction with the spirit prison augment, then any souls that are not also from reality prime cannot use the class features of the other personality. You can apply this augment to the same entity multiple times, adding an additional soul each time.

Rapid Solidification Additional cost 10
Each day the entity exists you may regain up to ten of the form points spent on it instead of the usual five.
Special: You can apply this augment to the same entity multiple times. Each instance beyond the first increases the number of form points you may regain by 5.

Spirit Prison Additional cost 2
Required Level 8: Instead of using an imaginary being, you may insert the soul of any creature that has entered your dreamscape from reality prime. The entity retains the class levels and mental stats of the original creature but loses all other racial abilities. Other augments cannot alter these levels or mental stats, although you can use mind breaking dream and mind shattering dream on the creature. The soul does not return to your dreamscape when it dies.
Special: You can apply this augment to the same entity multiple times, adding an additional soul each time. You may decide how dominance is determined. Each soul can only use its own class features, and the Transient Skill augment can only increase the class levels of an imaginary being. Likewise, the enhanced potential augment can only increase the mental ability scores of an imaginary being. The total HD and stats of any given soul is equal to the aberrant HD of the Entity + Class levels of the soul currently in control of the entity. When the Entity dies, any souls from reality prime lose the aberrant HD they gained while a part of the Entity and regain their former racial traits, racial HD, type, physical ability scores, etc. The level adjustment of the entity is equal to level adjustment of the dominant soul (if not imaginary) plus the level adjustment of the entity feature as noted above. Levels gained are added to the dominant soul.

Cascade of Life Additional cost 5
Required Level 8: The entity is capable of reproduction. The entity can breed with any living creature of the opposite gender. Reproduction takes 9 months unless otherwise determined by the race being bred with. An entity with this augment cannot be immortal. If your base race is typically immortal, the entity ages as an elf instead. You may choose to create an entity that is asexual or has more then two sexes (perhaps needing two or more mates to breed). If the entity is capable of asexual reproduction, increase the cost by 15. Children of entities you created are denizens of reality prime and have real, non-imaginary souls. You may choose the favored class, general alignment trends (such as "Always Chaotic Neutral"), starting language, etc of the race.

Enhanced lifecycle Additional cost 3
Required Level 8: You may increase or decrease the number of years in each of the entities age categories (and those of any future offspring) by up to 50%. You may also choose to have this increase/decrease the time needed for reproduction in the same way, if the entity reproduces. 
Special: You may apply this augment multiple times. Its effects stack, although you cannot reduce the number of months needed for reproduction below one.



*Dilating Cerebral Blot Incursion:*
Prerequisite: _Far-Plane Recreating Terraforming Glare, Indescribable Living Dead-World Dread Tyrant._

Your fear aura becomes much more flexible than normal; you may choose to emanate it to any lower radius, or even suppress it entirely, without an action necessary. You can make Oases within the radius where the effect does not take place, centered on specific places or positions relative to you- such gaps in the aura can be easily sensed by those nearby, and Frightened or Panicked creatures will likely run to them if they cant find the true edge of the effect. You may even choose to emanate the fear effect as normal but not afflict the other conditions, if one wishes to be more merciful upon the populace. The full range of your aura also expands to one mile per five Mythos class levels, as does the maximum range of your Flesh-Domain.
	You may command four times as many total Hit Dice in creatures as part of your Flesh Domain, though any individual creature still cannot have more HD than you. You can vanish and reappear anywhere within your Flesh-Domain as a standard action, which does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
	In addition to the normal spell effects you can replicate, you can affect your Flesh-Domain as if by Greater Stone Shape, Move Earth, Control Water, Animate Plants, Animate Objects, or Control Winds as a Standard action, and once per day may replicate a Planar Perinarch effect as a Full Round action, treating your Flesh Domain as a Divinely Morphic plane for the sake of the effect. You may also use a Nightmare or Dream effect on any creature sleeping in the area, though only once per creature per period of sleep (intermittent, troubled sleep still counts as one period). Lastly, you may use the travel version of Gate once per day per four Mythos class levels within your Flesh Domain, targeting the Far Realm, except the Gate created may fill up to an area of one 10 cube per Mythos class levels. You may expend two uses of the Gate effect to instead create a Reality Maelstrom, with its area of effect and duration multiplied by one tenth of your Mythos class level (round down), also targeting the Far Realm. The DCs for all of these abilities is calculated as for a Mythos.
	Creatures within your Fear Aura that suffer from a Fear Effect caused by you count as scrying you for the purpose of Sinister Image, and you may utilize the effects of Sinister Image on such creatures even if you do not otherwise have that ability. While doing so, the radius around the creature allowed by Sinister Image counts as part of your Flesh Domain. Yeah. Go crazy.

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## Gideon Falcon

I do hope I didn't scare everybody away... or have people just generally moved on from Mythos, and I didn't get the memo?

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## Kapskaen

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I know that reading the 'Anathemic Incarnation of Supracosmic Horror' has made me want to go back and re-work a villain I thought I'd finished, because that class is too perfect _not_ to use for him

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## Gideon Falcon

Well, I still don't like the name so much, but thanks. Obviously the flavor did not start with me, though.

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## Morphic tide

It really _does_ look like Mythos has died, hasn't it? One of the things I kinda worked through some preliminary thoughts on is the Mythic Fool that Xefas developed the first shred of in-universe lore on. Basically, in Mythos-land, The Fool was a Lawgiver that was defined as having infinite unrealized potential, being the weakest Lawbringer as a result of never realizing _any_ potential. A meeting with The Shadow, a Titan defined as opposition made manifest that was rendered the weakest _Titan_ because the one responsible for the shift into a Titan was self-defined as unopposable, resulted in the two "merging"/sacrificing themselves to create The Sun, who abandoned key elements of both to become beyond all others as justice incarnate (of the stick-up-ass obedient variety) and realized potential made manifest.

When The Sun truly opposed The Empyrian, slaying the thing responsible for making a bubble of consistency in the Far Realms, the Shadow returned, striking the sun _from within_, as well as from without.

Winning this battle resulted in The Sun becoming a _literal_ black hole sue, realizing infinite potential as a manifest truth. Compromising on this could have revived The Fool in the same way The Shadow was revived by utter opposition or abandonment of submission (it's... not clear _why_ killing The Empyrian brought back The Shadow). But The Fool is infinite _unrealized_ potential, and so if The Fool _did_ return, nobody would notice, just as all thought The Shadow dead from how weak its "birth" into "reality" made it. Of course, Anthols can differ from their Lawbringer or Titan of origin, that's why non-hypermurder-everything Teramach exist.

Mechanically, the Fool's Anthol class would be the Mythic Factotum, third or fourth rate at any given thing, but able to be third or fourth rate at _everything_. The overlap with Bard should be fairly clear, given that Bards _also_ do everything to some significant proficiency (which is why they're able to be worth using in some t2 parties, even though they lack the power to keep up). Lots of ability swapping and stupidly-general acquisition (or just plug it into an existing system for ripping off large chunks of classes like the Tricossiate, or the setup I whipped up for the current Base Class Contest, though that could also serve as a non-Mythos "core" to start applying Mythos abilities to)

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## Theseventh

When has death ever stopped anything Mythos related? It's going as long as people make content for it. And Falcon just posted from fresh (Albeit converted) content. Thread slows down and picks up like the ebb and flow of the tides so slow periods are normal.

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## Gideon Falcon

I agree on the Fool concept- it would definitely be a Bard/Factotum hybrid, and quite possibly have a ton of abilities relating to luck and probability. I actually do have a bundle of Luck feat based Mythos I didn't know what to do with, because they weren't enough for their own class but were a bit too much for a 'Race' type feat. I could have made it into a PrC, though, but I don't think we'd nailed down the nonepic PrC format at the time and I was making some of them with a specific character in mind that wouldn't fit with outright taking a PrC but _did_ have fate-related aspects. ANYWAY. I believe it was 8 of them, 2 of each tier, that kind of formed into two tracks based on whether you are favored by fate or you reject it to make your own- one thus focusing on being granted more by Luck feats, and one focusing on brute-forcing your luck. I'll have to dig around for it, though, I'm not sure I typed it up anywhere.

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## Morphic tide

> I agree on the Fool concept- it would definitely be a Bard/Factotum hybrid, and quite possibly have a ton of abilities relating to luck and probability. I actually do have a bundle of Luck feat based Mythos I didn't know what to do with, because they weren't enough for their own class but were a bit too much for a 'Race' type feat. I could have made it into a PrC, though, but I don't think we'd nailed down the nonepic PrC format at the time and I was making some of them with a specific character in mind that wouldn't fit with outright taking a PrC but _did_ have fate-related aspects. ANYWAY. I believe it was 8 of them, 2 of each tier, that kind of formed into two tracks based on whether you are favored by fate or you reject it to make your own- one thus focusing on being granted more by Luck feats, and one focusing on brute-forcing your luck. I'll have to dig around for it, though, I'm not sure I typed it up anywhere.


The Fool isn't lucky, though. The Fool is the potential omnipotent. The Fool is about having potential for real skill, but the Fool itself cannot have any skill due to being defined by _unrealized_ potential. Anthols can violate this to realize some of that potential. It's a matter of being able to grow to kick literally anyone's ass, not lucking out. Luck _can_ fit, mind you, but isn't really in the theme of the Lawbringer known as the Fool, and as such isn't a _good_ fit for an Anthol class based on said Lawbringer.

Oh, also, the Bard elements are mostly a matter of how the mechanics play out. Bards are able to be good at anything, or decent at very nearly everything, while Factotums are good at things based on what they choose for the day. The thematic elements of Bard aren't relevant as anything other than a skillset that the Fool could pick up. Possibly divided up between a number of Mythos that cover language-based power and do various abnormal things with it.

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## Kapskaen

From your description of The Fool, it sounds kinda like Red Mage from 8-Bit Theatre would be something of an example of his Anthol, being known for changing his character sheet on the fly to gain temporary ability at something, and being the only person who 'knew' The Rules of their world, but whom no one ever believed. Still sounds cool though.

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## Gideon Falcon

Well, it's like you were talking about last page; the classes can't be _too_ constrained to one specific concept, they need to embody the entirety of the archetype represented. The insistence on potential being _unrealized_ can't really last all that long, because how would that even look for a high-level character? Luck, though, is intrinsic to the archetypal concept of the Fool; honestly, it represents unfulfilled potential as much as any factotum-type feature-switching because it represents the opposite of skill- it didn't happen because you're that good, it just sort of ended up like that.
By the same full-spread argument, there's no better place to _put_ Bard abilities than the Fool- Aside from the sheer ally-buffing aspect that's represented by the Megaligeti, Bardic Music just _drips_ with the Fool, the Jester, the Buffoon. Who else has always got a song on their lips, in a way that is just so innocently inspiring in a row? Well, when it isn't completely annoying, that is.
I mean, c'mon. Tell me that when you think stereotypical Bard, you don't think of the village idiot? That's what the fool _is,_ is turning spectacular screwball imbecility up to fifteen and making it a scheme-ruining art form.

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## Morphic tide

> Well, it's like you were talking about last page; the classes can't be _too_ constrained to one specific concept, they need to embody the entirety of the archetype represented. The insistence on potential being _unrealized_ can't really last all that long, because how would that even look for a high-level character? Luck, though, is intrinsic to the archetypal concept of the Fool; honestly, it represents unfulfilled potential as much as any factotum-type feature-switching because it represents the opposite of skill- it didn't happen because you're that good, it just sort of ended up like that.
> By the same full-spread argument, there's no better place to _put_ Bard abilities than the Fool- Aside from the sheer ally-buffing aspect that's represented by the Megaligeti, Bardic Music just _drips_ with the Fool, the Jester, the Buffoon. Who else has always got a song on their lips, in a way that is just so innocently inspiring in a row? Well, when it isn't completely annoying, that is.
> I mean, c'mon. Tell me that when you think stereotypical Bard, you don't think of the village idiot? That's what the fool _is,_ is turning spectacular screwball imbecility up to fifteen and making it a scheme-ruining art form.


...I don't think you're properly understanding what I refer to when I speak of the Fool. It's actually a specific Lawbringer in the existing lore, by Xefas, that had plans for getting its own Anthol class, and Anthols are partly defined by being able to deviate from their Titan/Lawbringer, so realizing _some_ potential is possible for an Anthol of the Fool. A Jester was a separately-listed potential class in Xefas' notes, which would be a Mythic Bard. Granted, much of what you're referring to _is_ a key way to make personal incompetents be useful, so it can fit with "could be ultramegabadass, but cursed to never reach full ultramegabadass". So there's a place for it.

Unrealized potential, on a high-level character, is Triple 7ths with Full BAB. Second or third rate in a stupidly broad field of competencies. By JaronK's tier system, it actually ends up skipping over t2 to go from t3 to t1, because there's never going to be a thing they're below par at for their raw power. Which is one of the awkward things about JaronK's tiers that resulted in the redo project in which I argued for Wizards and Artificers being t2, owing to downright excessive preparation and optimization needs to actually meaningfully surpass Sorcerer. At which point Sorcerer's options at the same optimization level include going Schrodinger, leaving any non-Schrodinger Wizard hopelessly behind.

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## Gideon Falcon

No, I get what you mean about the Lawbringer, it just felt like you were tying the class a bit too closely to said Titan. It looks like I might have misinterpreted, but it sounded like you were saying they should only expand a little bit on the Titan's original nature.

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## Morphic tide

> No, I get what you mean about the Lawbringer, it just felt like you were tying the class a bit too closely to said Titan. It looks like I might have misinterpreted, but it sounded like you were saying they should only expand a little bit on the Titan's original nature.


It's more that you seemed to be looking at Bard-as-Musician/Herald as the focus of Bard-type shaninigans, rather than Bard-as-Jester/Fool. You looked to be wanting to staple the Bard _class_ themes to the Fool, which... Doesn't work.

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## Gideon Falcon

My bad. I did mean the more whimsical aspect of the bard, like the old demotivator of the Monty Python crew titled BARDS: Just... just Bards. There's always been a big aspect of the Bard being the idiot of the party, which was what I was trying to get at.

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## spwack

Well of course the Anthol of The Fool is hard-like. They are all about their own unrealised potential. Which evidently means that any potential they would earn becomes that of those nearby. All about buffs, and contrasting power levels.

Edit: ludicrously expensive practical jokes as Mythos Points. Make it happen people.

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## Yasahiro

So I got a question. When Jagannatha increases his size category because of his mythos, is the +4 Str and the +8 Str later the only boosts he gets or he also gets the NATURAL Boosts to stats from increasing size?

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## Gideon Falcon

Hmmm. Good question. I'm not sure, but I think the bonuses from the Mythos are supposed to subsume the Size Increase bonus and surpass it.

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## Yasahiro

> Hmmm. Good question. I'm not sure, but I think the bonuses from the Mythos are supposed to subsume the Size Increase bonus and surpass it.


Except these bonuses would be smaller than you'd get from size increase through Improving Monsters

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## Gideon Falcon

I thought it was generally just +2 str per category, unless you were really big. Assuming a medium starting size, I'm pretty sure it isn't smaller.

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## Allnightmask

The size increase has a specific numbers tied to it, specific trumps the typical in most all cases.

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## Dr_Dinosaur

Might be worth looking at Dungeon World's "Fool" class and Homestuck's "Page" class for inspiration. They're not great at anything in particular, but have great potential if they develop far enough or get lucky and make the game better for their party due to subtle, only semi-conscious manipulation of the rules and world themselves (When the Fool makes a knowledge check, the player decides what the character knows and it becomes true)

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## 7th son of sons

Alright, it's been a long, long, long time coming, but with a lot more time playing dnd and a lot more time reading, I'm going to be reworking both my Mythos classes soon(ish)

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## Gideon Falcon

Sick! Let me know if any Epifovian changes would be significant for the Cosmic Horror a few pages back.

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## 7th son of sons

Mostly expect me to be cleaning up a lot of wording, reworking some abilities that are kinda wonky, and replacing some abilities with more interesting/impactful ones

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## Morphic tide

> My bad. I did mean the more whimsical aspect of the bard, like the old demotivator of the Monty Python crew titled BARDS: Just... just Bards. There's always been a big aspect of the Bard being the idiot of the party, which was what I was trying to get at.


The big problem is... That those whimsical elements are emergent factors that are a player-trope, not actually part of the Bard as a class concept. The Bard in D&D is vastly more a proper jester, a skilled _entertainer_, or musician than a village fool. Sure, Perform (Comedy) can easily and frequently involve acting like a fool, but the key is that it's _acting_ like a fool, not actually being one. So I kinda missed your point.

So, let's talk tags for The Fool's Anthol class!

The incompetent with bizarre effectiveness would best be served by a [Luck] tag, but the catch is that such effects should revolve around making one succeed where they'd otherwise fail, because I've never seen that done before. Rerolls, bonuses _after_ rolls in the event of failure, damage bonuses for 1s on damage rolls and generally making it so that when you should fail or underperform, you don't, but you also don't get oodles of bonuses to make you do _great_. In effect, it's a removal of awfulness, even from bad luck, rather than an improvement of competence via luck. In general, have it result in obliterating the lower end of the bell curve, thus making it grind through enemies instead of having these huge bursts of awesome that level armies. Every swing fells three men, occasionally more and no less, instead of each swing having a one in three chance of felling nine men.

Active [Luck] effects are hard to work with, as you're basically forced to resort to giving characters _explicit_ handwave powers. Which really doesn't work in roleplaying games. "Doesn't count"s, "Didn't work"s and "It just happened"s are the bulk of what can be done with such effects. As a result, [Luck] Mythos would have to be passives and supplementary effects that alter other abilities, focused on making sure _something_ gets through regardless of extenuating circumstances, power differences, or various other things.

The ability swapping/aggrigating-over-time would be a single system for ability acquisition in the baseline, then Mythos expand access and add related benefits. The system I'm thinking of using is one I worked out for the base class contest, based on having meta-classes with what _used_ to be feature-stealing effects. This would result in an [Associate] tag, offering more breadth to the available Associations, and thus more broad ability stealing, and altering the effectiveness of them, such as amplifying resources or providing pseudo-meta-whatever effects.

Active ones would be mostly exotic meta-whatevers, altering the effects of the relevant abilities (could be multiple power sources covered, or even every power source) through connected costs, often of other power sources (maybe a general "effective spell level" value to handle OmniTheurge?), but on the spot ability acquisition would also be present, allowing for temporarily exceeding normal limits on how many things are available at once and rather considerably boosted versatility.

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## Dr_Dinosaur

About how much would people say mythos classes up the party's CR if used in Pathfinder, as a ballpark estimate?

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## Gideon Falcon

Ugh. CRs are hard to ballpark for PC's. I'd guess 50% higher or so, off the top of my head. Should I repost the Cosmic Horror update so people can see it again to give ideas, or should I put it in its own thread?

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## Theseventh

> Ugh. CRs are hard to ballpark for PC's. I'd guess 50% higher or so, off the top of my head. Should I repost the Cosmic Horror update so people can see it again to give ideas, or should I put it in its own thread?


It's own thread is not a bad idea. That was people can PEACH and ect without bumping the mythos thread unnecessarily.

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## Gideon Falcon

Alright. I posted the PrC here, so if anyone wants to comment, please do.

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## Defiantnight

Currently playing two Epifovians right now, please do keep us up to date if anything there gets changed  :Small Big Grin:

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## Quarian Rex

> Alright, it's been a long, long, long time coming, but with a lot more time playing dnd and a lot more time reading, I'm going to be reworking both my Mythos classes soon(ish)


Didn't see this earlier and went to check which classes might get looked at.  This reminded me that I should really try to finish the PEACH that I started on the Dinyomi almost... two... years... ago...

I seem to have lost track of some things.  Keep us updated though.

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## Sgt. Cookie

> Didn't see this earlier and went to check which classes might get looked at.  This reminded me that I should really try to finish the PEACH that I started on the Dinyomi almost... two... years... ago...


*Laughs in Mythic Summoner*

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## Dimmet

What happened to Mythos? I can't find a post from Xefas during this year, there's so many gorgeous projects going unfinished, and plenty of things could use more Mythos that'd make their way onto the Random Mythos gdocs.

This is my favorite homebrew subsystem, and the flavor and themes involved are practically unique in D&D, the only way I can really get interested in playing in campaigns these days. I need more. Have I been missing new things?

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## khadgar567

> What happened to Mythos? I can't find a post from Xefas during this year, there's so many gorgeous projects going unfinished, and plenty of things could use more Mythos that'd make their way onto the Random Mythos gdocs.
> 
> This is my favorite homebrew subsystem, and the flavor and themes involved are practically unique in D&D, the only way I can really get interested in playing in campaigns these days. I need more. Have I been missing new things?


well mythos comunity is kinda silent on how to continue and there is the bit of pathfinder playtest situaton going on like are we gonna convert to pathfinder 2e  or stick with sinking ship of 3.5.

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## Dimmet

> well mythos comunity is kinda silent on how to continue and there is the bit of pathfinder playtest situaton going on like are we gonna convert to pathfinder 2e  or stick with sinking ship of 3.5.


That's terrible to hear... The advent of 5e, and Paizo's apparent attempt to do the same marketing ploy has been a huge hit to 3.5/3.PF. But my groups and I aren't moving on, and Mythos is honestly the place I've been looking to for material to interest me since I vastly prefer the 3.X system. The kind of thinking these new systems seem to engender doesn't lend well to the flavor and potential of these class ideas.

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## Lanth Sor

In general like a large portion of the changes that come with PF2, that said, Skills are not one of them. I like the trained, expert, master, legend system but killing skp was dumb.

The feat focus is really in keeping with mythos mentality. I think we should get away form granting feats for mythos, granting the benefits they give works well, but then we should note it counts as having the equivalent feat, kind of like how stone power counts as power attack.

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## Gideon Falcon

The difficulty I had was just running out of ideas for the classes I had, meaning that without other people active in the thread, I didn't have any input to make more material.

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## Vauron

Personally, I largely dropped out due to two factors. First, my interest in 3.5 in general waned. Secondly, I'd come to feel it was kinda silly to keep trying to stuff an exp based system into the very level based Dnd.

Honestly I'd personally think it'd work better if Mythos material dropped levels entirely. Just set it up so that you get access to new tiers of mythos based on the amount of experience spent on mythos.

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## Morphic tide

> Personally, I largely dropped out due to two factors. First, my interest in 3.5 in general waned. Secondly, I'd come to feel it was kinda silly to keep trying to stuff an exp based system into the very level based Dnd.
> 
> Honestly I'd personally think it'd work better if Mythos material dropped levels entirely. Just set it up so that you get access to new tiers of mythos based on the amount of experience spent on mythos.


One of my thoughts was to actually convert it into a directly GP based system, balancing against magic items by _cost_ instead of _slot_ like Incarnum, with some abilities costing Mythos points to use that are then balanced against similarly-costed consumables. Furthermore, a central issue of Mythos's point-based nature is that, for one, the points are too vague in how you get them. As I've said before, determining lack of benefit is _wildly_ impractical, but determining _inefficient_ benefit is relatively easy. Another issue is that the nearly total reliance on Mythos functions turns them into a _bad_ kind of list-based class, because Xefas' own advice was to put _necessary number fixes_ into those _chosen features_, resulting in _needing_ nearly every option to stand entirely on its own as a viable feature. Which rapidly inflates the power and versatility of the classes to the point that they can't "play down" to t3 without extensive game knowledge, unlike Wizards and Clerics who need extensive game knowledge to fully play at t1.

A restructuring of Mythos, as a subsystem, that I'd like more would be to make it so that highly redundant Mythos are more "condensed" into one per Mythos level, if not even fewer, with subset functions being repurchase options. For example, Automatic Strike from the Bellator (if I recall the names correctly) could instead be a repurchase option for each Discipline-Mythos that has good use for it without breaking things. This means you can keep it out of Divine Spirit to avoid _massive_ health recovery (it's too trivial for the magnitude of value), while keeping it for Desert Wind to let you sword-beam all day, every day. Then you can have each Discipline be more differentiated, with passives scaling with repurchases for each Discipline, while letting you give fitting Disciplines to non-Bellator Anthols without giving them unfitting Disciplines as a side effect, like the Teramacht getting Tiger Claw.

By compacting a lot more of the building-upon into repurchase options, we can get the lists down to the point we could afford to fairly easily give heavily overlapping class lists while also having closely-related effects become significantly more diverse by having _room_ for such redundant Mythos being separate. Shadowcaster's formatting can help with this, letting you give fancy names to the repurchase options while still letting you confine the "top-level", rather open-ended, Mythos to a manageable number of "competency areas". Granted, this leads to description complications because you can't neatly explain what the Mythos actually _does_, but given the nature of Mythos as an expressly narrative-inspired system, I feel that nonmechanical descriptions fit better _anyways_, regardless of the structure of the system. Having Mythos map so closely to spells just _feels_ wrong, as they're supposed to be narrative abilities, yet they spiral out into extensively-described narrow-use (for one selection of them) abilities that behave quite like the spells they're meant to be a viable alternative to.

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## khadgar567

> One of my thoughts was to actually convert it into a directly GP based system, balancing against magic items by _cost_ instead of _slot_ like Incarnum, with some abilities costing Mythos points to use that are then balanced against similarly-costed consumables. Furthermore, a central issue of Mythos's point-based nature is that, for one, the points are too vague in how you get them. As I've said before, determining lack of benefit is _wildly_ impractical, but determining _inefficient_ benefit is relatively easy. Another issue is that the nearly total reliance on Mythos functions turns them into a _bad_ kind of list-based class, because Xefas' own advice was to put _necessary number fixes_ into those _chosen features_, resulting in _needing_ nearly every option to stand entirely on its own as a viable feature. Which rapidly inflates the power and versatility of the classes to the point that they can't "play down" to t3 without extensive game knowledge, unlike Wizards and Clerics who need extensive game knowledge to fully play at t1.
> 
> A restructuring of Mythos, as a subsystem, that I'd like more would be to make it so that highly redundant Mythos are more "condensed" into one per Mythos level, if not even fewer, with subset functions being repurchase options. For example, Automatic Strike from the Bellator (if I recall the names correctly) could instead be a repurchase option for each Discipline-Mythos that has good use for it without breaking things. This means you can keep it out of Divine Spirit to avoid _massive_ health recovery (it's too trivial for the magnitude of value), while keeping it for Desert Wind to let you sword-beam all day, every day. Then you can have each Discipline be more differentiated, with passives scaling with repurchases for each Discipline, while letting you give fitting Disciplines to non-Bellator Anthols without giving them unfitting Disciplines as a side effect, like the Teramacht getting Tiger Claw.
> 
> By compacting a lot more of the building-upon into repurchase options, we can get the lists down to the point we could afford to fairly easily give heavily overlapping class lists while also having closely-related effects become significantly more diverse by having _room_ for such redundant Mythos being separate. Shadowcaster's formatting can help with this, letting you give fancy names to the repurchase options while still letting you confine the "top-level", rather open-ended, Mythos to a manageable number of "competency areas". Granted, this leads to description complications because you can't neatly explain what the Mythos actually _does_, but given the nature of Mythos as an expressly narrative-inspired system, I feel that nonmechanical descriptions fit better _anyways_, regardless of the structure of the system. Having Mythos map so closely to spells just _feels_ wrong, as they're supposed to be narrative abilities, yet they spiral out into extensively-described narrow-use (for one selection of them) abilities that behave quite like the spells they're meant to be a viable alternative to.


agreed with morphic tide here. we are kinda need base rules for mythos system to grow properly. i know we are kinda draw from various works ( mainly exalted). But without core rules for system every mythow brewer kinda brews their own rules so we cant properly multiclass from core  classes or cross class in mythos my base idea is kinda use spheres of power/ might as chassis where each mythos class has distinct progression of 10, 15 or 20 mythos talents to grow in to. This way we can kinda intruduce mythos variants of any class by patching them to their mythos progressions. It also helps magical side of the mythos creation by giving us ability to barrier the realy dangerous talents from particular classes.

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## Morphic tide

> agreed with morphic tide here. we are kinda need base rules for mythos system to grow properly. i know we are kinda draw from various works ( mainly exalted). But without core rules for system every mythow brewer kinda brews their own rules so we cant properly multiclass from core  classes or cross class in mythos my base idea is kinda use spheres of power/ might as chassis where each mythos class has distinct progression of 10, 15 or 20 mythos talents to grow in to. This way we can kinda intruduce mythos variants of any class by patching them to their mythos progressions. It also helps magical side of the mythos creation by giving us ability to barrier the realy dangerous talents from particular classes.


My thoughts are actually to keep the trading of WBL for more features, _but_ confine the segments of the class's available features with high-density Mythos. Kinda like if Shadowcaster chose Paths instead of individual Mysteries. Like, one Mythos for each Discipline from Tome of Battle, then you spend Mythos Points to build out the Mythos abilities for that Discipline, gaining bonuses related to it based on investment into that one thing (granted, I actually generally dislike the various direct replication Mythos. Doesn't really feel like something base classes of a subsystem should have). One of the advantages of this is that you can more easily permit large chunks of capabilities to be shared and have the extremely broad capabilities on the classes without causing them to become t2/t1 by default because you can cherry pick a large number of options all made to be independently viable because they _need to be_, otherwise you're too able to get a character wildly below their expected power level.

The Anakitos and Teramacht could share a fairly significant number of high-level Mythos that fall under the idea of retribution, as that is a concept which fits both "themes" fairly well, while the Bellator and Efevreti can share crafting Mythos for "basic" weapons and armor, as such abilities fit both general _concepts_ (anything goes martial combatant and a crazed creator), albeit in different ways. And those differences come from the other Mythos they choose and, _extremely importantly_, baseline class features. Raw numeric needs could then be handled by the scaling benefits of investing in various Mythos and the baseline features, entirely doing away with the _painfully_ build-intensive Excellency mechanic. With this, you _need_ just one or two Mythos per concept, as each Mythos has most of the needed mechanical functions.

The result is _very_ similar to a setup I tried to get to work based on the various "build-a-class" systems, such as the Trisocciate (I'm the one who got it locked for necromancy!) and Split Soul, where you essentially grab a relatively small number of relatively large areas of competence, but instead of being a level-based system, it's GP-based with a level lock. Instead of gear or consumables, you can spend WBL on character-internal power, with fluff that causes high-level characters that keep doing it at the highest rate they can get away with to passively break settings by dumping vast sums of wealth into various charities and ego-inflating actions to internalize the power. This can be useful for DMs, as a near-Epic Anthol ends up throwing hundreds of thousands of GP into industries normally restricted to purchases and donations of a few hundred. That wealth goes somewhere, and if the DM has plots with shady merchants, those merchants get large sums of extra GP to spend.

A side effect is that stuff like the Anakitos' [Purity] mechanic would have to be generalized so that multiple classes could make use of such Mythos. This, in my opinion, can be used to get the fluff and mechanics more integrated by having a mechanic that _specifically_ promotes Anthol behavior being more similar to their associated Titan or Lawbringer. Of course, you can grab Mythos that ignore such confines to free your character from similarities, letting you play as a Teramacht who behaves little differently from a payback-focused Anakitos. But the most wide-reaching, most setting-shattering powers _are_ locked to that mechanic (and other RP-confining mechanics), so if you want to eat The Sun and burn half the multiverse as a Teramacht, you _have_ to act like The Monster.

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## Lanth Sor

Hadn't thought of rehashing the costs I LIKE IT!!!.

I am working an a class that is based on class features that work based on meeting a goal like the story feats of pathfinder. Goal completion requires at least 2 HD per class level be observing you while performing the goal.

*Twin Blade Discipline*
- *Prerequisite:* Dex 13, BAB +1
- *Benefit:* When wielding  2 or more weapons you can make 1 attack with each extra weapon per attack granted by your base attack bonus. You take a -2 penalty per weapon past the first used.
- *Goal:* Land 1 more attack then your base attack bonsus allows in a round 1000 times.
- *Completion Boon:* Damage form each attack is totaled before damage reduction is applied. Each consecutive hit deals one more damage then the previous hit in the same round.
- *Special:* For the purpose of meeting prerequisites this functions as Two Weapon Fighting. Starting at +6 bab it also counts as Improved Two Weapon Fighting. Starting at +11 bab it also counts as Greater Two Weapon Fighting. Starting at +16 bab it also counts as Perfect Two Weapon Fighting.

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## Lanth Sor

My current class will be utilizing the developments we've discussed here.

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## Rogthnor

Has anyone played the 5e mythos classes? Also does anyone know if we'll be getting a 5e Jagganoth?

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## ThreadNecro5

Oh, this is still active.

I've a couple ideas in the works and had begun the Wall of Flesh epic level prestige class. And the 'Mythic Nothing' is hard to write for. I know what I want it to be in the end, just trying to get it there.

One idea I had but cant think of a good way to do is a mythos class based on the idea of 'the hero that sees themselves become the villain'. Or a 'Mythic Quest' if you will, imagine a class where the character begins as a classic 'the antagonist burned my hometown' type and grows over time into a classical hero that assembles a group of allies (buff other characters?) and gathers the magical McGuffins, passes the ancient trials, and sets out to slay the dark lord. Only after that the mythos must keep going and without a villain to face the hero becomes their own inverse (Shintai) who becomes the antagonist of more members of the class their acts inspire against them while those new hero's become a foe for the story as the 'villain protagonist' character. Obviously the fluff adapts around the members of the class's alignments appropriate so the evil tyrant grows to become a paragon on justice and leading their former second in command to oppose them. As I said I don't quite know what to do with it so if anyone out there is inspired feel free to use any of the ideas here for your own work.

Another idea of mine is the 'Mythic Blessed One' someone chosen by some god or similar entity/force to work in their name and embody their nature. Think Greek legends or Grithith from Berserk. I had another example but I forget the character's name. An elf from the Warhammer fantasy/Age of Sigmar setting.

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## Inevitability

So whoever is still reading this: here's this concept I had.

Basically, a Mythic Pacifist. The Mythos's origin is a Lawgiver of guidance, self-sacrifice, and most of all: utter pacifism, who ended up getting destroyed by the Monster at some point in time. When the dead titans were used to create the world, tiny bits of the lawgiver were also included, giving rise to a rare but occasionally emerging Mythos.

Some design ideas I have so far:

-Mainly wisdom-based, with side roles for charisma and constitution.
-The 'gold to Mythos' conversion is based on donating goods or money to the poor.
-Wisdom to AC while wearing no armor.
-Diehard as a bonus feat at level 3.
-Wisdom as a substitute for Dexterity when determining Reflex saves.

A few example Exceptional Mythos:

*Spoiler*
Show

*First-Principle Weapon Style*
*Prerequisite:* -
[Mercy]

You have mastered a fighting style characterized by calm, deliberate strikes and nonlethal takedowns, allowing you to end battles without ending lives.

You gain Subduing Strike and Intuitive Attack as bonus feats, and you ignore the Exalted nature of those feats. You also gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.

*Basic*
_Ascetic Battlemaster:_ When dealing nonlethal damage with a simple weapon, you can substitute your wisdom modifier for your strength modifier when determining damage.

_Blade-Breaking Redeemer:_ You gain Improved Sunder as a bonus feat. When attempting to sunder a weapon, you ignore any hardness it may possess. If you destroy a weapon with a sunder attempt, the weapon's value in gold pieces is granted to you as mythos points.

_Enlightened Arrow Source:_ Your ranged attacks no longer provoke attacks of opportunity. Furthermore, you gain Precise Shot and Point-Blank Shot as bonus feats.

_Live-By-The-Sword Punisher:_ You gain Improved Disarm as a bonus feat. If you successfully disarm a creature of a weapon, you can immediately make an attack against it with the weapon you just took, assuming you have enough free hands to use it. You are considered to be proficient with the weapon when making this attack.

_Mercy of the Gentle Hand:_ You gain Superior Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and can make unarmed strikes with any part of your body just as a monk can.

_Shooting an Olive Branch:_ You gain Zen Archery as a bonus feat. Furthermore, you can deal nonlethal damage using ranged weapons with no penalty to your attack roll.

_Staff-to-Shield Adaptability:_ When wielding a simple melee weapon in two hands, you gain a +3 shield bonus to AC.

_Violence-Ending Jab:_ You gain Stunning Fist and Extra Stunning as bonus feats.

*Advanced:*
_Manifold Paths to Peace:_ You gain a basic manifestation of this Mythos that you do not already possess.


*Self-Sacrificing Stigmata Receiver*
*Prerequisite:* -
[Martyrdom]

As a swift action, you can touch a living creature and transfer some of its wounds to yourself. The creature heals a number of hit points up to (your constitution bonus times your Eirinistis level), with the exact amount decided by you. You then take the amount healed as damage. This damage ignores temporary hit points, Shield Other, Share Pain, or any other effect that would reduce the amount of damage you would take. It bypasses regeneration and all other effects that would turn it into nonlethal damage. This ability is not based on positive or negative energy. A creature with Tomb-Tainted Soul may still be healed by this effect, and an Eirinistis with that feat would still be damaged. 

It is possible for the damage healed to exceed your current hit points.

For example: during a tough battle a 7th-level Eirinistis with 18 constitution is at -8 HP. They are conscious (thanks to their Diehard feat), and on their turn move over to a wounded Anakitos ally. They activate this ability, choosing to heal their ally for the maximum amount of 28 hit points. The Anakitos regains 28 hit points while the Eirinistis takes that much damage. The Eirinistis is now at -36 HP, and barring extraordinary circumstances (such as a Delay Death spell), dies.

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## Rogthnor

Anyone know if xefas is still frequenting the forums?

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## Morphic tide

> Anyone know if xefas is still frequenting the forums?


His last post was in 2017.

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## Lanth Sor

Sometimes you can catch him on the Mythos Discord

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## Imbalance

Grievous?  Why, I never!

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## Rogthnor

So I haven't formatted it yet for the forum, but I just finished my first pass at a Mythos class, and I could use some feedback.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing


Its complete, atm, but it could definitely use some help since I haven't played 3.5 in a while, and might need some expansions

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## Lanth Sor

Ill add it to the compendium

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## Rogthnor

It now has a page!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...5#post24188555

Could use some feedback, especially on what tier to put some of these mythos in

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## Kymme

Okay so, status report.

Xefas has posted a totally revamped Olethrofex and the first version of the Cynosure over on the Mythos Discord. This happened a while ago.

Also, I've just posted a mythos class to the forum called the Dysoikos. It's about playing a house. Check it out!

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