# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 > DM Help Captured gnome illusionist spellbook

## Jay R

A human wizard in my game has captured a gnome illusionist's spellbook.  Since the illusionist had the racial substitution level, he had been able to learn some spells at a lower spell level.  Specifically, his book includes _silent image_ and _ventriloquism_ as cantrips, _minor image_ and _Leomund's Trap_ as 1st level spells, _major image_ and _illusory script_ as 2nd level spells, and _illusory wall_ as a 3rd level spell.

Can the wizard learn these spells from the book?  And if so, at what level?

I'm pretty sure the RAW answers are "yes", and "at their normal level, not at their gnome illusionist level", simply because the rules don't mention any difficulty.  But that's not really rules as written; nothing in the rules even considers this question.  My real question is what makes sense within the logic of the game.

Let's take as our example the 2nd/3rd level spell _major image_.  It's clear to me that she cannot simply copy and cast it as a 2nd level spell; she is neither a gnome nor an illusionist.  Can she even understand a two-page description of what is (to her) a 3rd level spell?  Can she "copy" two pages of the other book into three pages of her own?  Is a gnome illusionist's 2nd level _major image_ spell even the same spell as an ordinary _major image_?

If I were inventing the rules myself, I would say that she can learn it, but that she isn't merely copying it; she is translating it into a different (and higher) version that she can cast.  It would therefore be more difficult to learn, and would need a higher roll (or more time) to succeed, because she is not merely copying it but translating it to a different level.  That makes the most sense to me, but it has no rules support at all.

The PC has just reached 5th level, and so will get 3rd level spells for the first time.

The player will not be upset with any reasonable decision I make.  She's a long-time AD&D player playing 3.5e for the first time; she absolutely believes in DM judgment calls.  That doesn't make me free to decide anything I like; it give me the responsibility to make a decision that makes sense and gives a fun but challenging game.  [Part of the question is whether having a different process for learning these spells adds a fun, challenging element.]

The party captured three spellbooks and several scrolls this adventure, so she will not feel annoyed that she hasn't gotten enough new spells.  I'm a little nervous that maybe she has too many.  That is not a basis for the decision, though; I'm looking for consistent in-world logic.

This issue may have been dealt with in other situations.  This isn't the only case of a spell that is different levels for different classes.

On a related issue, could anybody except a gnome illusionist cast those spells out of the book?  My snap answer is "no"; the spell is 2nd level in the book, and nobody except a gnome illusionist can cast a 2nd level _major image_ spell.  Again, I'm not looking for simple RAW.  I'm looking for a discussion of reasonable in-world logic.  

I fundamentally believe that there are often many legitimate possible answers.  Ideally, lots of approaches will be discussed, with pros and cons.

Thanks for any help you have to offer.

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## Particle_Man

The fun answer is giving the human wizard a choice, but they choose to record the spell at the lower level (or cast the spell out of the spell book at that lower level) they transform into a gnome illusionist.  This is how gnomes reproduce.  :Small Smile:

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## Crake

> If I were inventing the rules myself, I would say that she can learn it, but that she isn't merely copying it; she is translating it into a different (and higher) version that she can cast.


This is pretty much the RAW. Im afb right now, but im pretty sure that the reason wizards need spellcraft checks to read each others spellbooks is because each wizard effectively has their own way of writing down spells. There are classes for example that can write any level spell down as 1 page, but a normal wizard can still decipher that and write it down in their own spellbook with however many pages it would normally take.

With that in mind, it makes sense that a wizard who might not be able to take advantage of all the shortcuts and optimizations that a gnome illusionist has written into their spells could still take it at face value and copy using their own system, in which it would be a higher level spell as normal.

As for casting it out of the book thats not a thing in 3e, unless you meant preparing it out of the book, in which case, you would still prepare the spells at your normal, expected level.

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## redking

The levels are a metagame concept. Forget about the levels. Levels are not mentioned in the gnome illusionist's spellbook. So your PC sees _silent image_ in the spellbook, and copies for himself. But as the Wizard is not a gnome illusionist, he casts it at the normal level. The inverse is also true - a gnome illusions obtains a human Wizard's spellbook, and it has the spell _silent image_. This was a 1st level spell for the Wizard, but even copying the Wizard's spell, the gnome illusionist casts it as a cantrip.

Who/whom is important, not what.

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## Jay R

> The fun answer is giving the human wizard a choice, but they choose to record the spell at the lower level (or cast the spell out of the spell book at that lower level) they transform into a gnome illusionist.  This is how gnomes reproduce.


Giggle.  That's a fun idea, but I'm not willing to let somebody change their race with a cantrip.  [And it doesn't sound nearly as fun as the way humans reproduce.]




> The levels are a metagame concept. Forget about the levels. Levels are not mentioned in the gnome illusionist's spellbook.


I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion, but it's not consistent with the rules.  A 3rd level spells takes up three pages in the spellbook.  That is a real difference in the world and in the game.  It takes 300 gp worth of ink to write down, and requires a DC 18 spellcraft check to learn.

Levels aren't mentioned, but _major image_ still takes up two pages in the gnome's spellbook, like _levitation_ but not like _haste_.

Furthermore, when he is preparing spells, once he has prepared all his third level spells, he can then decide which of _levitation_ or _major image_ to prepare as a second level spell, but he can't memorize _haste_ in that slot.

He may not think of them as "second level spells", but he knows a category of two-page spells that he can memorize interchangeably, and that are not interchangeable with the three-page spells.




> This is pretty much the RAW. Im afb right now, but im pretty sure that the reason wizards need spellcraft checks to read each others spellbooks is because each wizard effectively has their own way of writing down spells. There are classes for example that can write any level spell down as 1 page, but a normal wizard can still decipher that and write it down in their own spellbook with however many pages it would normally take.
> 
> With that in mind, it makes sense that a wizard who might not be able to take advantage of all the shortcuts and optimizations that a gnome illusionist has written into their spells could still take it at face value and copy using their own system, in which it would be a higher level spell as normal.
> 
> As for casting it out of the book thats not a thing in 3e, unless you meant preparing it out of the book, in which case, you would still prepare the spells at your normal, expected level.


Yes, I meant preparing it out of the book.  Is it harder to prepare it based on a 2-page description than a 3-page description?

Overall, you make several good points.  But in that case, a gnome's racial understanding of (certain) illusions allows him to write it down in fewer pages.  Without that racial understanding, can a human understand those abbreviations?

It seems like it should be harder or more expensive to learn, but now that I think about it, it already is.  Another gnome (with the substitution level) can learn _major image_ from that book with a DC 17 spellcraft check and a cost of 200 gp worth of ink.  But a human would have to make a DC 18 check, and use 300 gp worth of ink.

OK, that fits my vague idea that it should be harder, without needing to change any rules.  It's still no harder to learn it from a gnome's 2-page notes than it is from a human wizard's 3-page notes.  Seems like it should be, but not enough to invent a new rule for it.

Thanks, everybody.  All three of you have pushed me to think in new directions.

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## Crake

> The levels are a metagame concept.


Spell levels are most definitely not a metagame concept. They rate the complexity and difficulty to prepare/cast spells, and are definitely categorised as such in-world. Its probably more of a gradient in-world than the discreet power scale that it is, but thats a simplification, not an abstraction

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## Darg

> Gnome Illusion Spells: A gnome illusionist who takes the 1st-level racial substitution level uses her wizard level as the caster level for her racial spell-like abilities. In addition, she can *prepare and cast* the following illusion spells at the indicated spell level, rather than at their normal spell level:


The spells are still the original spell level. The gnome illusionist can only prepare and cast them at the lower level, which by the way is optional (in case you want the higher DC). So the spells take up the original number of pages and another wizard can only learn the spells at the original spell level.

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