# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 > Optimization Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXIII

## The Viscount

_Welcome to Optimization Stadium, the field of combat for our storied competition. Here the contestants will be transmuting lead into gold as we showcase the overlooked, underused, weird, wild, and wonky prestige classes._ 

Planescape is a much-acclaimed setting with many interesting feuding factions. Unfortunately, the prestige classes made to represent those factions are bad. So much so that we have done all of the 10 level prestige classes in the book except one. Today we complete the set. Crack open *Planar Handbook* and get ready to shock your parents, this time we're cooking with *Defiant*!

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D 3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

*Contestants:* You will need to present a full 20-level build for your entry. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played from 1-20 in a real game. Traditionally contestants give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. The purpose of these snapshots is not just to showcase your use of the SI, it is to demonstrate that your character is playable at every level. For this reason, it's still worth giving a snapshot before you have entered the SI.

*Menu:* The "special ingredient" can be drawn from any legal source. Originally, the plan was to mostly use Core and Completes, but that was a long time ago, and we've started running out of interesting classes to use if we restrict ourselves to those.
32 point-buy is the presumed creation method.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.
*Kitchen:* Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion.  Here's a guide to most of what has and hasn't been updated. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden.  Please refrain from using Taint unless it's necessary for the Secret Ingredient.
NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.

*Cooking Time:* Contestants will have until *13:59 GMT on Sunday, December 18th, 2022* to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, The Viscount. You may submit build by email if it is too large for a single PM. *Please put the name of your build in the subject line of your PM.* Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until *13:59 GMT on Sunday, January 8th, 2022* to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.  

*Judging:* Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.
Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading.  Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept. Please note the following: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana.  Using conflicting setting material may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not.  In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.*Presentation:* Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry. (A fillable, pre-formatted version found here)*Spoiler*
Show

*NAME OF ENTRY*
*Level*
*Class*
*Base Attack Bonus*
*Fort Save*
*Ref Save*
*Will Save*
*Skills*
*Feats*
*Class Features*

1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



Code immediately below (spoiler).*Spoiler*
Show

[table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
[tr]
[th][B]Level[/B][/th]
[th][B]Class[/B][/th]
[th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
[th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
[th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
[th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1st[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2nd[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3rd[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]


For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)*Spoiler*
Show

*Spells per Day/Spells Known*
*Level*
*0lvl*
*1st*
*2nd*
*3rd*
*4th*
*5th*
*6th*
*7th*
*8th*
*9th*

1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code immediately below (spoiler)*Spoiler*
Show

[B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
[table="class:head alt1 alt2"]
[tr]
[th][B]Level[/B][/th]
[th][B]0lvl[/B][/th]
[th][B]1st[/B][/th]
[th][B]2nd[/B][/th]
[th][B]3rd[/B][/th]
[th][B]4th[/B][/th]
[th][B]5th[/B][/th]
[th][B]6th[/B][/th]
[th][B]7th[/B][/th]
[th][B]8th[/B][/th]
[th][B]9th[/B][/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1st[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2nd[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3rd[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]


For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.*Speculation:* Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

*Leadership is banned;* we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners.  If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means. If your entry includes a prestige class that requires Leadership, you still need to qualify, but the feat should thereafter be ignored. 

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM. If there are no votes, Honorable Mention will go to the chairman's favorite build.

*Past Competitions*

Courtesy of some wonderful volunteers, there is a handy-dandy spreadsheet guide to all previous builds here. PM if you'd like to contribute to the spreadsheet for access.

*Spoiler: The First Hundred*
Show

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord
Iron Chef V: War Chanter
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo
Iron Chef XII: War Mind
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple
Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver
Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin
Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar
Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master
Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker
Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator
Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer
Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade
Iron Chef XLIII: Bladesinger
Iron Chef XLIV: Urban Soul
Iron Chef XLV: Talon of Tiamat
Iron Chef XLVI: Cipher Adept
Iron Chef XLVII: Cold Iron Warrior
Iron Chef XLVIII: Shadow Sun Ninja
Iron Chef XLIX: Thrall of Orcus
Iron Chef L: Corrupt Avenger
Iron Chef LI: Black Flame Zealot
Iron Chef LII: Anointed Knight
Iron Chef LIII: Zerth Cenobite
Iron Chef LIV: Osteomancer
Iron Chef LV: Mountebank
Iron Chef LVI: Dwarven Defender
Iron Chef LVII: Darkrunner
Iron Chef LVIII: Spellsword
Iron Chef LIX: Fleet Runner of Ehlonna
Iron Chef LX: Lasher
Iron Chef LX(II): Acolyte of the Ego
Iron Chef LXII: Dungeon Lord
Iron Chef LXIII: Witchborn Binder
Iron Chef LXIV: Slime Lord
Iron Chef LXV: Thunder Guide
Iron Chef LXVI: Dwarven Chanter
Irogn Chef LXVII: Gnome Giant Slayer
Iron Chef LXVIII: Fang of Lolth
Iron Chef LXIX: Shiba Protector
Iron Chef LXX: Order of the Bow Initiate
Iron Chef LXXI: Silver Key
Iron Chef LXXII: Spellfire Channeler
Iron Chef LXXIII: Flux Adept
Iron Chef LXXIV: Crinti Shadow Marauder
Iron Chef LXXV: Thief of Life
Iron Chef LXXVI: Legacy Champion
Iron Chef LXXVII: Great Rift Skyguard
Iron Chef LXVIII: Risen Martyr
Iron Chef LXXIX: Black Blood Hunter
Iron Chef LXXX: Master of Many Forms
Iron Chef LXXXI: Serene Guardian
Iron Chef LXXXII: Elocator
Iron Chef LXXXIII: Winterhaunt of Iboorighu
Iron Chef LXXXIV: Waverider
Iron Chef LXXXV: Astral Dancer
Iron Chef LXXXVI: Twisted Lord
Iron Chef LXXXVII: Shadowsmith
Iron Chef LXXXVIII: Arboreal Guardian
Iron Chef LXXXIX: Thrall of Demogorgon
Iron Chef XC: Bloodstorm Blade
Iron Chef XCI: Fatemaker
Iron Chef XCII: Eye of the Xanathar
Iron Chef XCIII: Hoardstealer
Iron Chef XCIV: Doomlord
Iron Chef XCV: Gnomish Artificer
Iron Chef XCVI: Oozemaster
Iron Chef XCVII: Aerial Avenger
Iron Chef XCVIII: Visionary Seeker
Iron Chef XCIX: Life Eater
Iron Chef C: Swiftblade


Iron Chef CI: Night Mask Deathbringer
Iron Chef CII: Blade Dancer
Iron Chef CIII: Psion Uncarnate
Iron Chef CIV: Atavist
Iron Chev CV: Primeval
Iron Chef CVI: Disciple of Mammon
Iron Chef CVII: Insidious Corruptor
Iron Chef CVIII: Crimson Scourge
Iron Chef CIX: Tattooed Monk
Iron Chef CX: Rage Mage
Iron Chef CXI: Watch Detective
Iron Chef CXII: Spinemeld Warrior
Iron Chef CXIII: Celebrant of Sharess
Iron Chef CXIV: Thayan Gladiator
Iron Chef CXV: Shining Blade of Heironeous
Iron Chef CXVI: Peregrine Runner
Iron Chef CXVII: Imaskari Vengeance Taker
Iron Chef CXVII: Siren
Iron Chef CXIX: Arcane Duelist
Iron Chef CXX: Berserk
Iron Chef CXXI: Dragon Descendant
Iron Chef CXXII: Cerebrex

----------


## The Viscount

*FAQ:*
*Q: What's this even about?* 
A: I'm glad you asked, actually...

*Q: Is Dragon Compendium Allowed?* 
A: Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

*Q: What about 3.0 materials?*
A: 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed _unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition._

*Q: Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources?*
A: The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books.  The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party).  Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

*Q: What about online sources in general?*
A: If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible.  Use it, link it.

*Q: Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana?* 
A: A few specific things are explicitly acceptable. *The elemental/environmental races, spelltouched feats, variant character classes, specialist wizard variants, whirling frenzy, aspect of nature, and racial paragon classes are legal.* Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change.  Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful.  Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. In a similar vein, LA buyoff and fractional BAB are also disallowed. Bloodlines and the Retraining options presented in the PHB2 are ripe for abuse, and will be _strongly discouraged_ as long as I am Chairman.  Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

*Q: What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean?*
A: As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly.  *No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort.*  Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

*Q: What's the minimum score in a category?*
A: Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1.  If a judge is convinced that an entry is mechanically illegal by the RAW, the judge may give the build a score of 0 in Elegance, and proceed to judge the entry as if the offending material was not included.  Failing to meet a special requirement for a prestige class does not merit a 0, but may qualify for a penalty, at the judge's discretion.  Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

*Q: Creatures and templates with no listed LA are playable, right?*
A: No. No listed LA is equivalent to LA: -. It is not suitable for PCs. If you use it, expect judges to look extremely disfavorably on it.

*Q: So what's the deal with equipment, anyway?*
A: There is no official policy on how much equipment you should list. Historically, judges have frowned upon "item dependent" builds, but unfortunately the definition of that has been applied to mean anything from builds that don't function if you remove one very specific item, to builds that so much as mention a particular weapon. Builds that don't list gear should be assumed to buy useful generics - items to boost their primary stats, cloaks of resistance, appropriate magical weapons and armor, and so forth. If a build would find particular items useful, they should be listed, but experience suggests that the more generic you keep them, the more favorably judges are likely to look upon them, as a build being shut down because the Thundering Bagpipes of Urist McTrumpetbritches were unavailable is considered a weakness. Similarly, requiring items in order to be able to qualify for things tends to be frowned upon.

*Q: Do you have any other rules and guidelines on how to judge?*
A: We do, actually, designed to try and avoid unpleasantness we've encountered in past contests. The things we've come up with to avoid repeating this are given below.

*Spoiler*
Show

*One Mistake, One Penalty*
*Spoiler: What does this mean?*
Show


Judges are only allowed to penalise once for a given mistake. If someone messes up their skills and doesn't qualify for a PrC, ding them as hard as you like. Once. In one category. You don't then get to declare that because they didn't qualify for that PrC, they don't get those levels, and thus don't qualify for anything else. If Ranger is a common ingredient, ding them for Originality. Once. Don't also take off points for Two-Weapon-Fighting being a common ingredient.

Non-exhaustive list of examples:

*Skills*
Allowed:
Giving a penalty for miscalculating the number of skill points gainedGiving a penalty for not having enough ranks to meet a prerequisiteIncreasing the harshness of a skill miscalculation penalty if it affects critical skills including prereqs

Not allowed:
Giving separate penalties for miscalculating skill points and for non-qualification where the non-qualification is solely caused by the miscalculation
*Prereqs*
Allowed:
Giving a penalty for not meeting prereqsScaling the penalty depending on how important the item that the build failed to qualify for isGiving minimum score in UotSI for not qualifying for the SINot giving credit for (note: not the same as penalising for) tactics using feats or classes other than the SI that were not qualified for (but see below)

Not Allowed:
"Cascading" failures to qualify - declaring that because a build doesn't qualify for a feat, for example, it also doesn't qualify for anything using that feat as a prereqTreating a build as having fewer levels than it does because of FtQ for classes


Other general things that are no longer allowed:
Penalizing because someone has chosen to build a tribute to an existing creative workDeciding that a backstory has not met a fluff prerequisite well enough, or because its method of meeting it is "unrealistic". You may penalize if a fluff prereq is not addressed at all, but not for how well it is addressed.Please don't base your scores off the scores of another judge.

Note that these are protections, not licenses. Deliberately taking a feat that you know you don't qualify for hoping to just suck up the judging penalty for a feat that you couldn't normally take is not okay, and may lead to your build being disqualified.


*Q: Do you have any contest house rules or clarifications to ambiguous rules?*
A: Some that have come up in previous contests and needed answers to:
All creatures are proficient with any natural weapons they may have or acquire.Bonus feats that are granted even if you do not meet the prerequisites do not require you to meet the prerequisites in order to use.Able Learner's benefit applies to the level you take it.Weapons from soulmelds are considered to be magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming DR.Unarmed Swordsage grants Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1.Not finishing Savage Progression is subject to a penalty to EleganceOne dispute per entry. Submit disputes by PM to the Chair.Ghostwalk ghost is bannedGold, silver, and bronze are awarded regardless of ties (e.g., 2 silvers does not preclude bronze)Spelltouched feats are legal and can be taken just like any other feat when you meet the prerequisites and have the feat slot available.
*Q: Can I submit more than one entry?*
A: You may submit up to two entries into a given competition.

*Q: What's with the deadlines?*
A: I've included extra time due to the holiday season.

----------


## Venger

I knew this day would come eventually. In to cook.

----------


## daremetoidareyo

Awwwyissssssss

----------


## Tohron

Are builds allowed to use the cleric-to-defiant level trade-in outlined in the description of the Defiant PRC?

----------


## The Viscount

> Are builds allowed to use the cleric-to-defiant level trade-in outlined in the description of the Defiant PRC?


*Absolutely.*

----------


## Inevitability

> A paladin or cleric of a specific god cannot become a defiant until the character renounces all belief and faith in the deity, becoming an ex-cleric or ex-paladin and losing all spells and class features except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons.


Apparently a paladin who forswears their god forgets how longswords work?

----------


## Beni-Kujaku

> Apparently a paladin who forswears their god forgets how longswords work?


If you're going that way, it doesn't say "all cleric and paladin" class features, so a cleric/barbarian/War Hulk who becomes defiant suddenly becomes much more calm in their everyday life and remembers how to look around before crossing the road.

----------


## Paragon

It's been a longtime coming and this ingredient is either veryyyy obvious to me or not at all so to avoid the frustration, I'll be judging this round.

Moving around a lot during the holidays so I'll be on the train with time to spare. Bring it !

----------


## Gruftzwerg

RAW seems like a mess here...
For the sake of the contest I kindly request some guidance by "The Viscount" on some topics:

1. Losing Weapon & Armor Proficiencies
If you are  pure cleric and convert all your levels, you are left with no armor and weapon proficiencies...

By RAW we could try to fall back to:



> Anybody but a druid, monk, rogue, or wizard is proficient with all simple weapons.


&



> All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.


While Simple Weapons are still arguable, at least we should still have Armor Proficiency (light)..

But imho this "feels" unsatisfying and wrong..^^
So do we get any global DM fiat by The Viscount here (that we don't forget proficiencies with weapons and armor)?

2. Missing Caster Level for the SLA
Dunno, are there any "default/general" rules for SLA I'm missing here?  We don't even know any class connection, since some of the spells have varying spell levels for different classes.. IIRC there is a rule when it comes to finding scrolls, but in this case it ain't a scroll...
So, what are we doing here? (Or did I miss any rules here? help^^)

3. "Divine Interference" includes the Defiant?
While it ain't spelled out, "any" seems to include the defiant too.

----------


## The Viscount

1. The "special" section of requirements and the "ex-clerics" section both have the following 


> loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons.


This brought to my attention that the clause in "special" is in disagreement with the ex-paladins section. Let's fix that:
*An ex-paladin who renounces their deity to enter defiant retains all paladin-derived weapon proficiencies, not just simple.*

2. If not specified, the caster level for a class-derived SLA defaults to class level, as with the nondetection effect.

3. That is correct.

----------


## Gruftzwerg

> 1. The "special" section of requirements and the "ex-clerics" section both have the following 
> This brought to my attention that the clause in "special" is in disagreement with the ex-paladins section. Let's fix that:
> *An ex-paladin who renounces their deity to enter defiant retains all paladin-derived weapon proficiencies, not just simple.*


First, thx for the fast reply.

(1.)
Imho that clause sole applies if you are still an "Ex-Cleric". For that, you would need to have at least 10+ cleric level (and I doubt that anyone would take more than 9 cleric levels for this contest). Otherwise you don't have any "Ex-Cleric" levels anymore after entering Defiant.
So I assume we get the same fiat here!? ^^
Because if you sole have Defiant lvls left:



> Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Defiants gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

----------


## The Viscount

Ah, I'm sorry. I misunderstood the question. If you trade all your cleric levels for defiant, then you must rely on other sources/classes to give weapon and armor proficiencies. I guess now we know why the sample one has a level of fighter.

----------


## loky1109

I'll maybe judge.

----------


## Gruftzwerg

> Ah, I'm sorry. I misunderstood the question. If you trade all your cleric levels for defiant, then you must rely on other sources/classes to give weapon and armor proficiencies. I guess now we know why the sample one has a level of fighter.


That is sad to hear.

But I still feel kinda inspired by the SI..
..I hope that I'll find some time to cook. ( short on time these days.. :/  )

----------


## holbita

What would be the interaction with cloistered cleric and skill ranks?

----------


## Inevitability

> What would be the interaction with cloistered cleric and skill ranks?





> His skill ranks remain the same (even though his class skill list changes), and future skill points gained are spent using only the character's current class skill lists.


Seems pretty clear: you get the knowledge domains and you get the higher skill ranks / level.

----------


## The Viscount

A cloistered cleric retains the same skill ranks.

----------


## Gruftzwerg

How are you all doing? We are almost at the deadline.
I kinda have finished one build (need to reread it and look for errors) and my 2nd build is in write-up. I hope that I get both finished in time, but my time management is as always *@!~§...^^

----------


## The Viscount

It's time for the dishes! (Please hold off on posting until the all clear.)

----------


## The Viscount

Breaking off from the Wish for a solo project.




> *Spoiler: In the beginning, there was the Word*
> Show
> 
> *And The Word Became Flesh*
> 
> 
> 
> _"From the lowest of insects to the proudest of gods, each being owes its life to a single source."_
> 
> ...

----------


## The Viscount

Not to be confused with Raziel.




> *Ka'zi'mir, the Soul Reaper
> *
> 
> * Backstory:*
> While being born as a DWK comes with privileges, it also comes with envy and loneliness. Life ain't easy if you are born under the heavy burden to achieve great things as a dragonwrought kobold. As such Ka'zi'mir leaves his tribe in his younger years to seek out others of "his kind" (dragons). On his journey he gets connected to the Church of Tiamat which seems to be more suited as home for a power seeking dragon. But somehow Ka'zi'mir feels stuck in the church's hierarchy. Since everything runs on ranks and tiles (and sometimes even size...), he get belittled all the time and his requests to go on outside missions to climb up the ranks get either denied, postponed or just straight ignored. It took him most of his life (venerable age) until the higher ups finally agreed (that he is now expendable) and did allow him to do outside mission for the church from now on. Finally the time has come for Ka'zi'mir to shine and get acknowledged. Or not??
> 
> 
> 
> *Race: Venerable Dragonwrought (Arctic) - Kobold (web enhancement)
> ...

----------


## The Viscount

The latest Shovel Knight spinoff.




> *Skull Knight*
>  
> 
> *Race: Human*
> 
> *Alignment (deity): L-E (The Blood Of Vol) >> C-E*
> 
> *STR: 14
> DEX: 10
> ...

----------


## The Viscount

Yeah, see?




> Feydora, the Barbed Rebuttal
> LN Half-Elf Defiant 10/Legacy Champion 10
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: The Build*
> Show
> 
> *Ability Scores*
> Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 14
> ...

----------


## The Viscount

Judges, handing it over to you!

----------


## H_H_F_F

Congrats to the contestants! 

Haven't been active lately (free time is sorely missing, and a lot of my hobbies and goals are getting hit pretty hard)

If I would've submitted something it would be very close to Fedora, so not too bad that I'm out.

----------


## Frostmoon

Congrats to the contestants as well! :D I had a vague idea of a Defiant 10/Ur-priest 10, so I'm glad to see that Skull Knight follows down that path (and is probably just better at it, too). XD Good luck to all!

----------


## Gruftzwerg

huh? I was kinda expecting more entries. On the other hand its less work for the judges, and always having 10+ builds is kinda heavy work for them.
I wish everybody "good luck" and at the judges "have fun".

----------


## loky1109

Table.

*	 	Name	*
*	Alignment / Race	*
*	Class Levels	*
*	Chef	*
*	Total	*
*	Place	*

 	The Word	
	LE Vivacious Body Hellbred
	ex-Cloistered Cleric Defiant 10/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Righteous Zealot 2




 	Ka'zi'mir	
	NE-CE Arctic Kobold
	ex-Dragonscale Husk Cleric Defiant 10/Soul Eater 10




 	Skull Knight	
	LE-CE Human
	ex-Cloistered Cleric Bone Knight 9/Defiant 10/Ur-Priest 1




 	Fey'do'ra	
	LN Half-Elf
	ex-Cloistered Cleric Defiant 10/Legacy Champion 10

----------


## loky1109

My judging criteria.
*Spoiler*
Show

*Originality.* Start is *3*. Most subjective part. I look at races, classes, prestiges, feats and clever tricks. Combo that involves SI may be reviewed in UoSI section.

Before I read all entries I wanna say: "It's ok to enter SI via ex-Cleric-9 replacement. I will not penalized you for this, but give bonuses if somebody avoid this." But I read and... I'm very sad about this. It turned out more frustrating than I expected. I actually doesn't matter because all have the almost same way into Defiant, but I should say: there will be penalties.

*Power.* Start is *0*. I have four parts *1.25* points in each.
_"Magic"._ Including Sp, Su, psi, martial and any specific abilities your entries have. Variety, amount, metas, other options, etc.
_Offense._ How good are you at making damage? Attack bonuses, damage, attack options, rider effects, etc.
_Defense._ Your hp, saves, AC and other defense options.
_Support._ Any "out-​of-combat" things. Being face, scouting, making money, tracking, mobility options etc.

*Elegance.* Start is *5*. I search for any mistakes, inaccuracies, ambiguity and give you a penalty. In rare cases when I find something pretty clever I can add some bonus.
TO RAW is always less than RAI. There is no way you could make me believe in d43 damage dice and similar nonsense.
Cross-​setting materials isn't something harmful if you know when to stop.
Multiclassing isn't sin, either. Multiclass XP penalty - opposite.
I don't like missed opportunities. If you take toughness five times it isn't pretty elegant in my book.
I look at formatting. Your entry should be easy to read. All skills in place, all feats clearly came from (regular, bonus, some free, etc.), there are right full sources, etc.

*UoSI.* Start is *0*.
Do you qualify for SI and don't break the rules after? - *+1* if all is ok. If it isn't... Well, if issue could be easily solved maybe *0*, maybe something between. If issue is unsolved you just get *1 point* in UoSI. 
Do you entry SI early? - up to *+0.5*.
Do you finish SI?  - up to *+0.5*.
Do you use all SI abilities (Spell resistance, Divine resistance, Divine damage immunity, Divine cancellation, Aligned strike, Divine prevention, Nondetection, Divine retribution, Divine interference, Divine disavowal, Fallen Clerics 1+, Fallen Clerics 3+, Fallen Clerics 5+, Fallen Clerics 7+, Fallen Clerics 9+) at all? - up to *+0.15* each. 
Have you found some interesting combos involving SI abilities? - up to *+0.5* each.
It isn't enough just to have, for example, Scent and saying: "It is useful for everybody and for me, too." No, you should have something on top of that, in Scent example it could be Track.
Combo, in turn, is something that you need to come up with. Synergy of Scent and Track isn't a great find, it is written directly in their description.

Do you use SI prerequisites or just take it and forget?  - up to *+0.25*.
Maybe SI makes your entry worse than it could be without SI? - up to *-1*.


I'll try to start in several days.

----------


## Wildstag

This is interesting. A one-page Iron Chef thread, with submissions on page 1? That can't happen often... I'm also impressed with the results. Admittedly, I misread the entire PrC's text, but I don't think I could have done better.

----------


## Gruftzwerg

> This is interesting. A one-page Iron Chef thread, with submissions on page 1? That can't happen often... I'm also impressed with the results. Admittedly, I misread the entire PrC's text, but I don't think I could have done better.


It's not just Iron Chef. Imho overall forum activity has dropped immense the past month or two. Dunno if this is still the sideeffect of the "unofficial discord" that some people did advertise here or if there are other reasons.
The low traffic of the past weeks feels alarming to me, but I don't know what to do about it.
I did warn those people that advertised the discord, but I kinda feel like they didn't get what I meant when I said that it's a bad thing to steal traffic from the forum. And now I feel like we are at an all time low of traffic in the 3.5 forum.
I also noticed a drop in Google search. The amount of results where gianttip is not on the first page feels like increasing (I have worked on 4 builds the past 1-2 months with google search). I hate to say it, but I blame those that started to advertise and use the unofficial discord for this.


May I ask what part of the SI your did misread/misunderstand? I'm curious now^^

----------


## Wildstag

> Things
> 
> May I ask what part of the SI your did misread/misunderstand? I'm curious now^^


I think of the first bit the same way I think of IRC-forum debates. Eventually, forums held out, and IRC is diminished. There's a homey quality to a forum site.

But mostly I misunderstood the whole "exchange levels" thing, kinda partially because the sample Defiant still keeps 7 levels of cleric. I think I just glossed over that block rather than reading it fully.

P.S. Fun fact, but the Planar Handbook was released after Miniatures Handbook and Complete Divine, but the Defiant's prerequisite text only mentions Clerics and Paladins. I'd probably elect to include Favored Souls in the ex-cleric text.

----------


## Gruftzwerg

> But mostly I misunderstood the whole "exchange levels" thing, kinda partially because the sample Defiant still keeps 7 levels of cleric. I think I just glossed over that block rather than reading it fully.


The sample Defiant didn't exchange any Cleric lvls at all. It has used this option:



> Clerics who are not affiliated with a particular deity make good defiants, ...


Since the cleric doesn't worship a god, he can freely join the Defiant without downsides. He keeps his Turn Undead and his Cleric spells. If he would have followed a deity, he would have lost all that and would have become an Ex-Cleric. But that is not that case here.





> P.S. Fun fact, but the Planar Handbook was released after Miniatures Handbook and Complete Divine, but the Defiant's prerequisite text only mentions Clerics and Paladins. I'd probably elect to include Favored Souls in the ex-cleric text.


These kind of problems are often in 3.5. Many books have been released overlapping each others production time. See the books that are partially 3.5 but still have some 3.0 issues. They all thrive from the same problem.

Finally, IIRC each supplement book is intended to work by itself with the core books. Intended interaction between multiple supplement books can happen but you shouldn't expect it by default.

3.5  ...messy as always..^^

----------


## Paragon

And here is my judgement. 
I took a pretty close approach to what Loky described as a judging criteria in order to bring a bit of order to chaos. 


*Spoiler:  And the Word became Flesh 14.8*
Show


*Spoiler:  Originality (start 2.5)*
Show


Voracious template is a great finding. Id never heard of it +0.5
Backstory matches the fluff and is well written +0.5
Righteous Zealot is a never seen before class (for me) +0.5
Devil Touched feats are a pretty rare occurrence even when people pick Helbred (though I dont get your switch from Spirit to Body even after your justification) +0.5

Total : 4.5



*Spoiler:  Power (start 0)*
Show


Incorporeal with a Fly speed and a Constitution score. Yeah thats pretty strong in my book +1
Aura + ranged touch attack that triggers a flat 20 Fort SoD at will per day is pretty strong. While the Positive Dominant Plane says undeads are hard to comeby there and they probably die from the energy positive exposure as any sane DM would rule it, what about constructs ? Theyre just immune to you but +1 still. 
Debuff tactics.
OTP Debuff tactics but efficient OTPnonetheless ; Physical attacks are dealt with 50% miss chance most of the time and martials need to have a way to fly to threaten you at all.
Spells have the same miss chance and whats more, Defiant adds divine specific SR. 
_Reminds me of Jorah the Hand of Annihilation https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...n-on-BG)/page4 but it's different enough I don't ding it in originality_ +1
I can see a DM allowing "healing" as a soothing non-threatening atmosphere... up until they blow up so the combination with Enthrall and Fascinate-like abilities is a good find +1
I like your idea of being intangible and still able to interact with objects. It's cleary cheese to unlock a lock that way ; color me a newbie but it's the first time I hear of it and I like it +0.5

Total : 4.5



*Spoiler:  Elegance (start 5)*
Show


Liked Hellbred Spirit and I don't get the switch to Body. Ok you get Devil touched feats but Telepathy opens up Mindsight for instance and Tongues is 1h/d anyways. No penalty but this annoys me.
Timing on this whole thing is a little wonky. Your words, not mine -1
Where did you put that Stench of the Grave prereq ? Until you show me you did include it somewhere, you get a -0.5
Also, if your party gets sickened in your positive aura and you dont move, they will probably die.
Paladin of Tyranny is Evil. Vivacious and the way you described you char is Good -0.5
Forcing that Binder abilities onto yours make it a lot of feat investment for a bit of a late game return -0.5 (Also I'm so sad you didn't go straight binder because I feel Leraje's Ricochet ability would have been awesome).

Total : 2.5



*Spoiler:  UotSI (start 2.5)*
Show


I like the I defy the gods because I answer to a higher power vibe and the demarcation of Cleric // Defiant painted with Death // Resurrected by the Great Unknown is a good fluff and seems to work RAW +1

*Spoiler: SI Abilities*
Show


SR. You complement it in some way with an Ex one vs Negative Effect. A bit niche so no points.
Divine Res : Boosted Cha + Paladin Grace +0.2
Div Can : 0
Aligned Strike : Negative synergy you can only hit ethereal things now -0.5
Div Prev : +0
Nondetec : +0
Div Ret +0
Div Disav : +0
BONUS : Heal : -0, Tongues +0.2, Dismissal 0.2 to escape is fun, Plane Shift 0.2


Prereqs are met and then left to die +0

You're using Defiant to help another build, I'm expecting the other way round -0.5

Total : 3.3





*Spoiler:  Kazimir the Soul Reaper 11*
Show


*Spoiler:  Originality (start 2.5)*
Show


Classic race (I can smell strong cheese when the appetizer is on the way... that spoils an appetite) -0.5,
Classic cleric into defiant instead of Cloistered. I guess barely counts as original in this round +0.1
Really didn't find the backstory compelling. It's just ""me against the world"" with a shade of grey (white then black) -0.5.
I can't really find anything here except well known power grabs except maybe Blessing of the Godless being a fitting addition +0.5

Total : 2.1



*Spoiler:  Power (start 0)*
Show


Well this is what you're here for at least.
Top tier PrC, Dwk Kobold cheese with a "i instantly qualify for anything" cherry on top, Greater Flyby Atk, your power grabs give you just that ; power +1

GFB's attacks with Soul Eater's negative levels are really good offensively. Doubled on a dive by RAW silliness ok.
Wight legion + Shapechange is really good as well. Offensively and defensively +2.
Only 2 out of 3 points here because you will not have me believe a 10 in Constitution is enough to dive into melee. More than once I mean.
Also, useless vs anything immune to energy drain (Death Ward) or incorporeal, nothing vs misschance etc. 

I got nothing standing out in means of Support.

Total : 3



*Spoiler:  Elegance (start 5)*
Show


Well this is where you lose points.

Venerable Dwk Kobold into "Dragon Type to automatically qualify" -0.5 (and believe me I want to hate more but trying to remain as objective as possible)
Wightpocalyspe from Dragon Mag -0.5 (I should double it for it being illegal + being cheese but I won't)
Soul Radiance (self defined as "abusable cheese") -0.5
Shivering Touch (another known cheese abuse) - 0.5
Switching Heritage ? Can you even decide your ancestor changes color post build or something ? -0.5 (can be revised if you quote me that it's meant to work out this way)
Your main stat isn't that great and while we're at it you're completely MAD even with the +3 cheese -0.5

Total : 2.5



*Spoiler:  UotSI (start 2.5)*
Show


"Defiant is imho a perfect match for Soul Eater." This sounds like you optimized an ingredient with the secret ingredient which to me is the opposite of what is asked here. -0.5

*Spoiler: SI Abilities*
Show


SR : Somewhat weak justification that Soul Eater are going to be chased by hordes of good clerics making the Divine Resistance and the likes more useful. I get it but I don't like it +0.1
Divine Res : +0
Div Can : 0
Aligned Strike : +0.2 since your claws are something but I won't buy the 10 Con melee guy.
Div Prev : +0
Nondetec : +0.2 to help your Shapechange ability (again, imo it's supposed to be the other way round but ok)
Div Ret  +0
Div Disav : see SR
BONUS : Heal : -0, Tongues +0, Dismissal 0, Plane Shift +0.2
Smart use of Soul Eater's capstone for doubling the SI's ability counts as +0.5


Know Religion sees some use in Blessing of the Godless +0.2

Your SI just makes your build worse than Dwk Cleric into Soul Eater. (I'm not set on a penalty there : it's not a good thing but i'm not sure any build here does)"

Total : 3.4





*Spoiler:  Skull Knight 13.4*
Show


*Spoiler:  Originality (start 2.5)*
Show


Bone Knight is from Five Nation and that is obscure enough to deserve a +0.5
Ur-Priest is what seemed obvious to me and I would have built it like this if I didnt feel it was so unoriginal so I'm guessing you'll get your points in Power.
Backstory is a 7-line joke but some more lore in the snapshots lets you avoid a penalty (and that shifted planes witty comment soothed me from the fact you don't even bothered to name your entry)
I guess Mounted Combat line, even though its a prereq, is pretty original for a Defiant +0.5
Washed up DMM and Persist metamagic -0.5

Total : 3



*Spoiler:  Power (start 0)*
Show


Well 9th level spells here is really strong +1.5
You're reasonable at meleeing as you have Divine Power Persisted (I'm guessing) and otherwise the best BAB here. You can actually deliver that "plane shift offensively" everyone brags they can. Ride By Attack is a good addition and your capstone is a SoL which you already have plenty of via spells +1
Defense wise you complement the defensive abilities of Defiant and have self made good armor as well as nice immunities +1
Support is the Cleric level spells but you only have so many of them (especially after your persist routine). +0.5

Total : 4



*Spoiler:  Elegance (start 5)*
Show


Shivering touch cheese to compensate lack of offense ; I penalized one, I have to penalize this one too -0.5
Rank investment is packed but correct, no penalty
Snapshots' 6-10 editing error made me wrack my brains (no penalty but it looks messy)
That "I don't need to craft because it doesn't explicitly says so" is the kind of stuff I throw books at at my tables -0.5

Total : 4



*Spoiler:  UotSI (start 2.5)*
Show


Ur Priest simply makes sense with Defiant, like it's the rest of the PrC lost in another book +0.5
"While normally the question is what the other classes can do for the SI, imho here it's the opposite" well you're the third one this round so in fairness you get -0.5 like the rest (as I feel this competition is about doing the opposite)

*Spoiler: SI Abilities*
Show


SR +0 
Divine Res : +0
Div Can : 0
Aligned Strike : +0
Div Prev : +0
Nondetec : +0
Div Ret  -0.5 you have anti synergy with your casting and nothing to mitigate it.
Div Disav : +0
BONUS : Heal : -0, Tongues +0, Dismissal 0, Plane Shift +0.2



Prereqs are used for Ur Priest +0.2

You spent a lot of time telling me about a build that happens to have the SI in it but it is seldom showcased how you improved it

Total : 2.4





*Spoiler:  FeyDoRa 11.1*
Show


*Spoiler:  Originality (start 2.5)*
Show


Half Elf, omg this is original but i'm clenching, hard +0.5
2 lines per 2 lines backstory for a grand total of 8 ? that's -0.5 (and i'm being nice) Come on, with City Domain combined with Underwater fluff : where is my Altantis lore ?!
Legacy Champion +0.5 for originality but you're going to pay for this in Power i'm sure.
Using 2 slots for the same feat isn't what I call original -0.5
Knowledge Devotion/Collector of Stories on a Cloistered Cleric is washed-up as it can be -0.5
Essentia took me off my feet +0.5

Total : 2.5



*Spoiler:  Power (start 0)*
Show


You spend an awful amount of resources devising ways to heal yourself while your HPs are tanked (-20 out of your average 133.5 meaning it's 15% off your max hp) by your legacies -0.5
Offensively you have a passive "charge me if you dare" but what if they don't ? You want to bring a spear to a magic fight ? You suffer what every martial character suffers in combat and you just have the abilities to heal up once you're out of it. The flat bonuses help you a bit (Knowledge Dev and Collision even though I can't see you reach +10 dmg) and you only end up with 3 attacks as a full round. I'll admit the summoning ability is good, if you remain underwater (which, as is, Fey'Do'Ra can't) +1
Defensively, you boosted almost every ability the SI has to offer so your SR is top notch (33 @20) vs Divine spells but what about the other half of casters ? Arcane just blows you out of the water (pun intended). A niche counterspell ability can save you once a day (and then you have to plane shift again) and a teleport Ex ability make me wanna give you +1
You added some Gather Information to have stuff to do outside of combat and some points in knowledge. Feels a little light but its something +0.5

Total : 2



*Spoiler:  Elegance (start 5)*
Show


A defiant that needs to undergo rituals dedicated to gods to gain his weapon's abilities then forsakes his faith but keeps the perk ? -0.5
"half elf allows for aquan as a bonus language". So does aquatic elf AND it makes sense to be able to breathe underwater if you're gonna be summoning most of the stuff you can there -0.5
I'm sorry to say but this build feels bland to me. I can't really explain it other than I spent time reading a build, yes, but it feels like an NPC build WoTC used to come up with (well thought out, nice implementation but I see no optimization anywhere (except healing optimization and we all know of that goes...) and well that is the point of this competition -1
The way I'm reading it, Elven Spell Lore doesn't help with Divine Cancelation as it gives +2 to CL for dispel attempts when the ability overrides it with a "CL = 5". Inquisition domain on the other hand work pretty well (no penalty, just nitpicking)
Not liking the "it's from a domain but it doesn't say divine so it's not" argument -0.5

Total : 2.5



*Spoiler:  UotSI (start 2.5)*
Show



*Spoiler: SI Abilities*
Show


SR is boosted +0.2
Divine Res : +0
Div Can : +0.2
Aligned Strike : +0.2 (Spearing is your bread and butter)
Div Prev : +0.2
Nondetec : +0.2
Div Ret  -0.2 messes with your Higher Order spells but +0.2 since you make it a headache for divine caster to do anything
Div Disav : see SR
BONUS : Heal : +0.2 from Therapeutic Mantle, Ability boost for spells... meh no +0 Tongues +0, Dismissal 0, Plane Shift +0.2 for recharging Higher Order Abilities.




Prereqs are entertained through knowledge and devotion mechanics +0.2

You're the only build that has improved Defiant instead of using defiant to improve some other class. I gave everyone a -0.5 so i'm not giving it to you (meaning you're +0.5 above the rest)

Total : 4.1

----------


## Wildstag

> Since the cleric doesn't worship a god, he can freely join the Defiant without downsides. He keeps his Turn Undead and his Cleric spells. If he would have followed a deity, he would have lost all that and would have become an Ex-Cleric. But that is not that case here.


I was thrown off by the character's seeming lack of a domain, without anything to make up for its absence.

----------


## Gruftzwerg

> I was thrown off by the character's seeming lack of a domain, without anything to make up for its absence.


You felt trap to the "oversimplified statblocks" which got later introduced in 3.5...
If you look up all the Monster Manuals you notice the change in the format.
At the start we had detailed stats and mechanics, later we got oversimplified stuff like attack rolls with total bonuses and feat use (e.g. Power Attack -3). But if want to change something (e.g. the Power Attack) you need to reverse engineer the info provided..

Same here. Have a look at the daily spells:
*"Cleric Spells Prepared (6/6/5/5/3)"*
They include the bonus spells from high mainstat and the daily domain spells. Thus the domain spells are hidden within the selected daily spells shown. But reverse-engineering the domains.. good luck & have fun with that..^^

I really hate the later statblock format. It is total garbage and misleading.

I suggest to make yourself more aware of these 2 different formats to prevent future misreadings elsewhere.

----------


## loky1109

My judging incoming!

To all. Enter via trading Cleric-9 priced you *-1 point* in originality.

*Spoiler: The Word*
Show

*Spoiler: Originality*
Show

Be honest, I didn't expect Vivacious creature. As like Righteous Zealot. DLCS is my blind spot. 
Paladin is expected.
Being a Vestige user is a surprise. I like it. Stench of the Dead isn't a frequent guest.

You get full *4 points* from me here.

*Spoiler: Power*
Show

_Magic._ I ignore the cleric's casting. But you still have something really. Not exactly magic, but racial _Su_, Vestiges and some stuff from Pal and Zealot. It isn't so much in numbers, but very essential in your entry. *+0.75* here.
_Offense._ Okay. You are cool in killing people. In a strange but effective way. I don't know what you can do against constructs, but all other enemies will have trouble with you (*+1*).
_Defense._ You are incorporeal creature with Constitution. On top of that, Cha in saves and fast healing. You aren't invulnerable, but aren't fragile either. *+1* here.
_Support._ You are a good face, very good healer, not a bad scout with your fly and incorporeality. I give you *+1*.
And +5 LA hurts you in power in general *-0.5 points*
Total is *3.25 points*.

*Spoiler: Elegance*
Show

First thing I noticed. Your skills. It's better than I often see. Like from me.
I don't like Evil Hellbred. It is possible - everything is possible, but I see how it can become an issue (*-0.25*). I understand that backstory has a subjective nature, but the backstory that you give me has problems with your first 14 levels. I can't pass it by, sorry (*-0.25*).
I want to see exactly where the description of a positive-dominant environment is, it is the main part of your tactics (*-0.25*).
Total: *4.25 points*.

*Spoiler: UoSI*
Show

Do you qualify for SI and don't break the rules after? - I have some issues with your Paladin of Tyranny. Yes, I understand you are a paladin of a non personified source of divine magic, but what source exactly? It is important thing with current SI (*0.75*).
Do you entry SI early? - Oh, no, 15th level isn't early entry (*0*).
Do you finish SI? - Yes (*+0.5*).
Have you found some interesting combos involving SI abilities? Do you at least use them?
Spell resistance, Divine disavowal - You use it more than regular corporeal Defiants (*+0.1*).Divine resistance - You have good Charisma, but this ability is slightly overshadowed by Paladin's Divine Grace (*+0.05*).Divine damage immunity - As you mentioned, it's good for you as like as SR (*+0.1*).Divine cancellation, Divine retribution - I don't see some specific synergy here, but you have free standard and could use these abilities freely (*+0.05*).Aligned strike - You need this even less than regular regular Defiants (*0*).Divine prevention - Nothing special (*0*).Nondetection - Yes, it is good for you (*+0.15*), I'd even say it is a combo (*+0.25*).Divine interference - Nothing special (*0*).Fallen Clerics 1+ - Self-Healing means almost nothing for you (*0*).Fallen Clerics 3+ - Well, it could give you something significant with all your Cha-stuff (*+0.1*).Fallen Clerics 5+ - You have combo between Tongues and Righteous Zealot (*+0.15*, *+0.25*).Fallen Clerics 7+ - Dismissal is useful (*+0.15*) and combines with your subtype (*+0.25*).Fallen Clerics 9+ - Plane Shift has some synergy with all your save debuffs (*+0.1*).Do you use SI prerequisites or just take it and forget? - Just take (*0*).
Maybe SI makes your entry worse than it could be without SI? - I can't say so (*-0*). 

Total: *2.95*

*Total: 14.45*


*Spoiler: Ka'zi'mir*
Show

*Spoiler: Originality*
Show

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold, even Arctic. Booooring.
Soul Eater... Well, it is a well known prestige class, but I didn't expect it here.
Your feats... I don't see anything special. I rarely see Dragonscale Husk, but having traded it away means I give you nothing for it.

I think you deserve *2 points* here.

*Spoiler: Power*
Show

_Magic._ You have some with Rite of Passage and Soul Eater's stuff, but not very much (*+0.5*). Yes, you have more before becoming Defiant, but I don't want to talk about traded things.
_Offense._ Okay, you are Soul Eater within all its glory. It's cool (*+1*).
_Defense._ Not so good. Only 10 Con means too low hp. Saves are good, while AC is not (*+0.5*). 
_Support._ You have some knowledge and scouting stuff, you have Shapechange for some usefulness, but all this is fragmentary and/or situational (*+0.5*).
Your flying and Flyby feats give you benefits in several places. I give you *+0.5 points*.

Total: *3 points*.

*Spoiler: Elegance*
Show

You knew it moment become. 



> Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype.


I don't buy it. Well, this cheese isn't unsolvable, actually, you just get "free" feat. And I judge it as a free feat *-1 point*.



> Ka'zi'mir now needs to rely on general proficiency rules for Light Armor & Simple Weapon.


There are no "general rules" about this. This is a specific rule about PHB classes only. Even if we take into account DMG or MM - this "rule" breaks down. Plus, trading all cleric's levels you lose cleric's proficiencies (*-0.25*).



> Since negative levels can be affected by crit multipliers, I assume the same is true for dive/charge attack multipliers.


I don't sure about this, but see your point. No penalty here (*-0*).
I don't like your skill formatting, but you at least have only a few skills (*-0*).
Alignment change isn't an elegant thing, but it actually is just fluff. No penalty (*-0*).



> WIS: 15 (14 base -2 race +3 DWK)
> CHA: 16 (13 base +3 DWK) * all points from leveling go in here


Why not in reverse? 
Wis 14 (13 base -2 race +3 DWK)
Cha 17 (14 base +3 DWK) +5 ASI = 22

It looks better to me. Yes, you lose 5th level spells, but you anyway have them during one level only. This is a missed opportunity (*-0.25*).

About Wights.
I understand your point about Dragon #300, but I have several objections. 
First, live by RAW, die by RAW. I agree with H_H_F_F: you shouldn't try to combine TO RAW (dragon qualify) and RAI suggestions in one the one entry.
Second, there is a wight template in the Savage Species. 
Third, I don't buy template idea anyway. Dragon #300 released the same month as BoVD, Savage Species released a few months after. At the moment when Soul Eater was coined there was only one wight - from Monster Manual 3.0. 
It looks like you rely too much on the wights with class levels that they had in life. You will have no one (*-0.5*).

Total: *3 points*. 

*Spoiler: UoSI*
Show

Do you qualify for SI and don't break the rules after? - I have bad news for you.



> Being a defiant means believing in and practicing a strict policy of nonworship. A true defiant will never do any of the following:
> Use a holy symbol or holy water for any purpose. (This includes symbols of any deity or water of any alignment.)





> Each rite takes 6 minutes to perform, and requires unholy water and the dung of an evil creature (see below).


Oops.



> The last ritual comes with really fitting fluff for the SI:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				In a sharp voice, you speak the reversed names of thirteen good deities, denying their existence and imbuing your allies with wards of unbelief.





> Being a defiant means believing in and practicing a strict policy of nonworship. A true defiant will never do any of the following:
> Use the name of any deity as part of an oath or curse. (The Athar do sometimes use the term "Great Unknown" in this manner.)


Oops again.
I give you *+0* here. I give you *+0.5 points* here. It doesn't completely ruin your entry, you can just don't use this feat, but you clearly missed this limitation.
Do you entry SI early? - 10 level isn't earliest possible entry (*+0.25*).
Do you finish SI? - Yes (*+0.5*).
Have you found some interesting combos involving SI abilities? Do you at least use them?
Spell resistance, Divine disavowal - Nothing special (*0*).Divine resistance - Nothing special (*0*).Divine damage immunity - Nothing special (*0*).Divine cancellation, Divine retribution - Nothing special (*0*).Aligned strike - Nothing special, but you at least have guaranteed minions to use it besides yourself (*+0.05*).Divine prevention - Synergy with your army of wights (*+0.15*).Nondetection - Synergy with Shapechange (*+0.15*).Divine interference - Nothing special (*0*).Fallen Clerics 1+ - Nothing special (*0*).Fallen Clerics 3+ - Nothing special (*0*).Fallen Clerics 5+ - Nothing special (*0*).Fallen Clerics 7+ - Nothing special (*0*).Fallen Clerics 9+ - Well, you have good DC and can combine Plane Shift with Soul Eater's touch attack (*+0.15*, *+0.25*).Your anti-divine abilities, all this cancellation, retribution, interference actually synergy with your wights. I give you *+0.15 points* out of rubric for this.
Plus, Soul Eater capstone works great with SI, I give you *+2 points* for it.Do you use SI prerequisites or just take it and forget? - Just take (*0*).
Maybe SI makes your entry worse than it could be without SI? - Well, while there is no strong synergy between Soul Eater and SI, SI doesn't make Soul Eater worse (*-0*).

Total: *4.15*

*Total: 12.15 points.*


*Spoiler: Skull Knight*
Show

*Spoiler: Originality*
Show

Ur-Priest was my very first idea when I heard what SI we have. Second was Blackguard. Bone Knight is very similar to Blackguard. It isn't totally expected, but isn't surprising either.
Human, DMM (Persistent)? Handbook stuff.
Only surprise was Mounted Casting.

I give you *1.5 points* here.

*Spoiler: Power*
Show

_Magic._ You have 9th level. You have DMM, plus Bone Knight's stuff. Clear full mark (*+1.25*).
_Offense._ Yeah, you can, maybe you aren't the very best, but still very good (*+1*).
_Defense._ Here you are competent, too. Maybe you need more in reflex (*+1.25*).
_Support._ You aren't a scout, nor face, nor know-all. At least you have mobility with your Steed and ur-priest spells give you some versatility (*+0.5*). 
Total: *4 points*.

*Spoiler: Elegance*
Show

You are some item dependent (*-0.25*).
I don't like your cross-setting plane shifting story, but:



> Other general things that are no longer allowed:
> Deciding that a backstory has not met a fluff prerequisite well enough, or because its method of meeting it is "unrealistic".


*-0 points*.
One more thing about the story. It breaks my Suppression of Disbelief completely. Ur-priest from Faerun just fell out from portal and started with telling his best kept secret to the first stranger cleric? And this cleric is like: "You say Gods aren't Gods and I was fooled all my life. You know, I believe you." Really? 
I don't like this very much.




> If the DM/judge is kind enough to extend this even to "all shields" a Rider's Shield would be the optimal choice for the build (again in Races of Stone). If not, just use a regular heavy shield.


I don't buy "all shields", but I think you could trade tower shield prof for the Rider's Shield prof.

Alignment change isn't an elegant thing, but it actually is just fluff. No penalty (*-0*).

Monstrous Regeneration is a touch spell. Some DMs could say it isn't persistable (*-0.25*).

Total: *4.5 points*.

*Spoiler: UoSI*
Show

Do you qualify for SI and don't break the rules after? - Do you know why I didn't make my own ur-priest? I wasn't sure if it works. Look, ur-priest casts spells as cleric. What holy symbol does he use? Maybe his rites requires using names of gods? Or maybe it is forbidden for Defiants to use even stolen power of gods. After all they are fanatics. It all is very DM-dependent and it can became an issue (*+0.75*).
Do you entry SI early? - 11th level isn't early (*+0.2*).
Do you finish SI? - Yes (*+0.5*).
Have you found some interesting combos involving SI abilities? Do you at least use them?
Spell resistance, Divine disavowal - You have almost full immunity to damage. This means spells are one of your main vulnerabilities (*+0.1*).Divine resistance - +4 to saves is good, especially with damage immunity (*+0.05*).Divine damage immunity - Doesn't matter (*+0*).Divine cancellation, Divine retribution - Nothing special (*0*).Aligned strike - Nothing special, but you at least have guaranteed minions to use it besides yourself (*+0.05*).Divine prevention - Synergy with your minions (*+0.15*).Nondetection - Nothing special (*0*).Divine interference - It isn't for your benefit (*+0*).Fallen Clerics 1+ - Nothing special (*0*).Fallen Clerics 3+ - It's slightly more useful for you (*+0.1*).Fallen Clerics 5+ - Nothing special (*0*).Fallen Clerics 7+ - Nothing special (*0*).Fallen Clerics 9+ - Nothing special (*0*).Do you use SI prerequisites or just take it and forget? - Well, you use Knowledge (religion) for triple qualify and Knowledge (the planes) for double. Plus, you use existed at that time cleric's turn to qualify into Bone Knight. I call this double qualify, too (*+0.5*).
Maybe SI makes your entry worse than it could be without SI? - Actually yes. Divine Interference and Divine Disavowal interfere with your Ur-Priest casting and with your main spell - Monstrous Regeneration - it has SR: yes, you need 16 on CL check to successfully cast it. And even on 20th level you could fail casting 1st level spell if roll 1 on Concentration, 2 for 2nd level and so on. Isn't good (*-1*)  (*-0.5*).

Total: *1.9*

*Total: 11.9 points.*


*Spoiler: Fey'do'ra*
Show

*Spoiler: Originality*
Show

It isn't very innovative to use Legacy Champion, but I didn't expect it. While I had the idea to convert more than 9 levels of cleric into Defiant. It was a cheese idea, but you can see similarities. 
Hal-elf... is an underestimated race. 
Planar Touchstone isn't new, but taking it two times... 
Shape Soulmeld and Martial Study are frequent guests. Elven Spell Lore - opposite.

I give you *2.5 points*.

*Spoiler: Power*
Show

_Magic._ You have martial maneuver, Soulmeld, Catalogues of Enlightenment's higher-order ability, your Notched Spear, boosts to Divine Cancellation (*+0.75*).
_Offense._ You don't look powerhouse in this part. You have free +5 Collision weapon and Knowledge Devotion, but that's all (*+0.5*). 
_Defense._ I see nothing special here, plus your Notched Spear costs you 20 hp. You have good protection against divine magic, but against arcane, psi or barbarian with the axe you are too weak (*+0.5*).
_Support._ You are good at healing. At least in healing yourself. You have move action Ex teleportation and well aquatic summons, but you yourself have no abilities for aquatic environment. You have a not bad variety of skills. I give you*+0.75*. 

Total: *2.5*.

*Spoiler: Elegance*
Show

With all Cleric levels traded for Defiant you lose all weapon and armor proficiencies, including longspear proficiency (*-0.5*).
I give you *-0.25 penalty* for odd Wisdom and Charisma as well as for Ka'zi'mir.
I'm not sure if Legacy Champion should have Gather Information as in-class skill. You don't have class with that "existing class skill" anymore (*-0.25*).
And that's all I could find. 

Total: *4.25 points*.

*Spoiler: UoSI*
Show

Do you qualify for SI and don't break the rules after? - I don't see any issues here (*+1*).
Do you entry SI early? - No, only *+0.25 points*.
Do you finish SI? - Yeah, and even more! I give you a bonus here - *+0.9 points*.
Have you found some interesting combos involving SI abilities? Do you at least use them?
Spell resistance, Divine disavowal - On the one hand you just have it, but on the other hand you have it as 18th level Defiant (*+0.15*)Divine resistance - You just have it (*0*).Divine damage immunity - You just have it (*0*).Divine cancellation, Divine retribution - You use it (*+0.15*) and have some boosts for it (*+0.3*).Aligned strike - You just have it, your level improvements give you some bonus here, but not very much (*+0.1*).Divine prevention - You have it as 18th level (*+0.15*).Nondetection - You have it as 18th level, but don't do something useful with it (*+0.05*).Divine interference - You have it as 18th level (*+0.15*) and have some combination with Shadow Stride (*+0.15*).Fallen Clerics 1+ - 18th level, yeah. Plus, you have some hp deficit from you spear (*+0.15*), but about combo with _therapeutic mantle_ I can't agree.


> Whenever you are the target of a spell or effect that heals hit point damage, the spell heals additional damage equal to its spell level.


Maybe I missed something, but I see no spell level equivalent in the defiant's healing.
Fallen Clerics 3+ - 18th level means almost twice longer (*+0.15*).Fallen Clerics 5+ - Nothing special (*0*).Fallen Clerics 7+ - +8 CL is good, but I don't any special use for this Sp (*+0.1*).Fallen Clerics 9+ - _Plane Shift_ has no CL dependent effects (*0*), but you have combo between it and your Planar Touchstones (*+0.5*)Do you use SI prerequisites or just take it and forget? - Well, you slightly raised knowledges and have Knowledge Devotion (*+0.15*).
Maybe SI makes your entry worse than it could be without SI? - No, it doesn't interfere with your over abilities (*-0*).

Total: *4.4 points*.

*Total: 13.65 points.*


And the table.
*	 	Name	*
*	Alignment / Race	*
*	Class Levels	*
*	Chef	*
*	Paragon	*
*	Loky1109	*
*	Total	*
*	Place	*

 	The Word	
	LE Vivacious Body Hellbred
	ex-Cloistered Cleric Defiant 10/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Righteous Zealot 2

	14.80
	14.45
	29.25
	1st

 	Ka'zi'mir	
	NE-CE Arctic Kobold
	ex-Dragonscale Husk Cleric Defiant 10/Soul Eater 10

	11.00
	11.65
	22.65
	4th

 	Skull Knight	
	LE-CE Human
	ex-Cloistered Cleric Bone Knight 9/Defiant 10/Ur-Priest 1

	13.40
	11.90
	25.30
	2nd

 	Fey'do'ra	
	LN Half-Elf
	ex-Cloistered Cleric Defiant 10/Legacy Champion 10

	11.10
	13.65
	24.75
	3rd

----------


## The Viscount

Thank you to our judges for their speedy responses!

A few disputes:




> Thanks a ton for judging, Paragon!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Where did you put that Stench of the Grave prereq ? Until you show me you did include it somewhere, you get a -0.5
> 			
> ...





> A few things I wanted to point out:
> 
> 1)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Classic race (I can smell strong cheese when the appetizer is on the way... that spoils an appetite) -0.5
> ...





> Hi and thanks for the fast judging. I have some lil disputes and a few side notes here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				and that shifted planes witty comment soothed me from the fact you don't even bothered to name your entry
> 			
> ...






> Thanks for taking the time to judge Paragon and Loky. I just have a few disputes.
> 
> For Paragon:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> ...

----------


## loky1109

> Gather Information is listed as a class skill for Legacy Champions before the addition of existing class skills.


What a stupid mistake! Remove penalty.




> Or did you mean Divine Disavowal which requires a concentration check to cast divine spells? If you meant that, I specifically did pick Mounted Casting for that purpose. Mounted Casting affects "all Concentration Checks for Casting Spells while Mounted", not sole those because of "riding while casting".


This, actually, wasn't dispute for me, but I have the same judgement about Divine Interference (not Disavowal, it gives you SR).
I missed Mounted Casting, yes, it solves half of your problems. I remove half of penalty in the "Maybe SI makes your entry worse than it could be without SI?" section. Now it is *-0.5 points*.

----------


## Paragon

*Spoiler: The Word*
Show





> Spelltouched feats are legal and can be taken just like any other feat when you meet the prerequisites and have the feat slot available.
> Stench of the Dead should be legal to take, and I always took this line in the OP to mean that there's no need to personally secure access to the spell. You can just assume I got targeted with the spell at some point during the early levels, right? Or if really necessary I can just pay a cleric to cast it, or use Substitute Domain to get Envy and cast it from that (if I worship, like, the dark six then all 3 domains are in my pantheon).


That's not how it works. You don't tell the judge to do the job you didn't do with a "comeonnnnn", no change




> Vivacious just plain isn't Good. The positive energy plane has no alignment traits, the template does not affect alignment, and the sample creature is TN. Positive Energy and Good have a complicated relationship in D&D, but at best I'm just an evil person who occasionally does good, in the exact same boat as an evil cleric who casts lots of healing spells.
> 
> As for the way I described the character... I really feel like I went for an evil vibe? We're a hole in space dripping with rotting flesh, serving an Elder Evil and indiscriminately exploding all priests that won't submit to our ideology. What else do you want from me on the Evil front, eat a baby?
> 
> (and more separately: if a character needs to be LE mechanically, just assume they're LE? I don't like to be punished for including a backstory when the judge decides that it does not fit the one alignment I could mechanically be)


I admit to having decided Positive Energy meant Good while it doesn't seem to be that clear cut. My point stems in part from the fact "A hellbred must prove his worth to the lords of good" and, well, you're not even trying. *Switch penality to -0.25*

Penalty for "used A build to Support SI" instead of "Use SI to support A build" removed

*New score 15.55*



*Spoiler: Ka'zi'mir*
Show





> 1)Classic race (I can smell strong cheese when the appetizer is on the way... that spoils an appetite) -0.5
> &
> Venerable Dwk Kobold into "Dragon Type to automatically qualify" -0.5
> Imho this is double-penalizing the same thing "DWK cheese". So I kindly request to "pick you poison" here.


And I kindly decline. DWK to abuse Venerable to get +3 everyone is one ding, using the Dragon type to automatically qualify is another. 




> 2) lvl 1-9 we have cleric spells to heal up between fights if necessary. After lvl 10 we have a healingpool of 40+ HP (Defiant lvl x CHA mod) as mentioned. That's the equivalent of of CON 18 (+4) @ lvl 10.
> At lvl 16 without any items/wish, sole with Ability Score increase from lvl, the healing increases up to 50 HP. This is an effectively +3 CON modifier at that lvl.
> And since item and wish boosts to your mainstat are very common, you can expect a healing pool of up to 110 HP (CHA 32 = +11 X 10 defiant lvl)
> All that with D8 HD (from all classes) is imho more than enough to justify this as melee build.


The levels of Cleric don't count in the build since you traded them. Healing isn't the same as being able to survive a blow. It's too little too late. If you can't stand being hit and have to waste std actions to heal up, you're just going to die. Slower than if you lacked healing, but die anyways. (19x4.5+8 is 98 hp at ECL20. A simple 14 in Con adds 40hps which is 45% more max HP).




> Also, useless vs anything immune to energy drain (Death Ward) or incorporeal, nothing vs misschance etc.
> Most non-casters lack those things without the help of either party members of magic items. The Defiant ain't a caster, so to "expect" those thing is imho to much. I get that those thing would give extra points tho. But relying on party/items for that shouldn't be penalized for this SI imho.


I agree that incorporeal and miss chance are hard to overcome when you aren't a magic user. But my point about having a 4th level spells invalidating your build stands. 




> 4) First let me mention that Defiant itself has a protective aura from divine stuff. And I did give that an "use" in the build by having undead minions that normally fear divine stuff.
> Further there is "Blessing of the Godless" which offers 3 rituals to buff/support your allies/minions.
> And while we are at minions, those are kinda supportive by default (flanking, carrying your party's stuff, expendable meatshields.. whatsoever).


I guess minions (even illegal ones) grant you "support". *add 0.25*





> 5) I get the hate and that you want to cut some points here. But really -0.5 for an ability that the build sole has temporary access to over the course of 5 lvls (lvl 5-9)?
> Ain't that a but to much? I mean 75% of the build doesn't have it. And it ain't even the late level (for some high level cheese).


I'm rating what you showcased. You figured it was important enough to mention it, I figure I need to rate it. I penalized Skull Knight for this as well.




> 6) I didn't switch my "Heritage", which provides the DWK with "black" scales. But he is/was covered by his "white" scales provided by his "Dragonscale Husk" ability. The Dragonscale Husk ability lets you chose your color and is not related to your heritage.
> To be honest, I was hoping for some extra points here for weaving in some nice RP gimmicks. I know "white" dragons are also "evil" in 3.5. But still imho the change form white to black represents effectively the change from a believer to a nonbeliever. The white scale provide more protection, while also limiting him in his freedom (medium armor slowing him down, reducing his max DEX). The black scales are the rotten leftovers from the former divine protection (sole +1 NA left), but they offer more freedom in exchange (no armor).


I... didn't understand that at all. Even after you explain it, it feels like a stretch ; your own scales don't change color, the husk that looks like a medium armor you grow onto you has a different color from your scales. This is not the same thing to me. But I get your point, *I'm removing the penalty*




> 7) I have to kindly ask what is asked here? I don't see anything in Viscount's description that would oppose my point of view here. Furthermore imho "using the SI" to enhance the other parts of the build is literary what I just did.
> Contrary you (and others too) do expect the opposite. How to "use the other classes for the SI".
> Imho you are requesting the exact opposite of what is literary asked here for. But aside from that, I would also like to ask if all this should be relevant at all??
> Shouldn't the main purpose be to show nice interactions & synergy between the SI and the rest of the build? I really don't see it justified to exclude either part. I mean for which benefit? Ain't the aim of the contest build diversity?
> So why limit the "use of the SI" to a sole one sided view, when we can have it all?
> If you wanna stick to your decision it's fine. But I think a change of mind would be nice for "everybody's sake" (I'm also including the other builds into this request).


I'm guessing you ought to be right. I remember feeling stiffled when Troacctid judged the Shining Blade round and did that to me and I figured that's what this was about. I'll rectify it.

*New Score : 12.25*



*Spoiler: Skull Knight*
Show





> While I get you feelings imho this seems to be intended. Even the sample Bone Knight didn't bother to raise any one of the two craft skills beyond 6(weapon) & 7(armor) ranks while having:
> 
> +2 bonecraft full plate
> DC for Full-Plate = 10 + 8 AC = DC 18
> Masterwork = a 2nd roll with DC 20
> 
> +1 bonecraft greatsword
> DC for greatsword = DC 15
> DC for masterwork = DC 20
> ...


The build can live without it yes, if you're willing to take the bet it can work most of the time. The issue I have is you brought it up, that's all. I'm judging what I'm reading and if you'd said nothing, there would have been no penalty. I agree -0.5 is maybe a bit much, so *-0.25 it is*




> The build "uses the SI" to create a monopole on divine magic for itself. Most of the SI abilities are used to accomplish this and thus "of use" imho.
> Divine Prevention and Divine Disavowal both also help to secure our undead minions from divine stuff. Nondetection is always needed as mastermind behind undead minions, since Clerics and Paladins often use divination to solve their problems.
> 
> And I don't get what you are pointing to with what you said about Divine Retribution? The ability works as normal in this build. I don't see any Anti-synergy here with my casting.?
> Or did you mean Divine Disavowal which requires a concentration check to cast divine spells? If you meant that, I specifically did pick Mounted Casting for that purpose. Mounted Casting affects "all Concentration Checks for Casting Spells while Mounted", not sole those because of "riding while casting".
> Quote Originally Posted by Mounted Casting
> You gain a +10 bonus on Concentration checks to cast spells while mounted
> The concentration check DC is:
> DC = 15 + defiant lvl + spell level
> ...


Fair enough, I didn't do the maths. Thanks for explaining it to me. 0.25 Penalty removed for the ability to cast in your own disturbance field (it's not elegant at all, but it's functional) and another -0.25 removed since you do make a point about getting all that divine magic for yourself.




> You spent a lot of time telling me about a build that happens to have the SI in it but it is seldom showcased how you improved it
> Imho the category is named "Use of the SI" and not "Improvement of the SI". I doN't get why some judges have such a (sorry to say it) narrow minded and far streched interpretation of this? I really don't get the reasoning behind this. I don't see these "unmentioned" restrictions as justified and would ask you to reconsider you point.
> If you want to stick to that, that's fine too. Your subjective criteria interpretation.


As I said to Ka'zi'mir, I'm changing that (meaning +0.5 to you and the other 3)

______________

Thank you for taking your time to judge the competition. And to everybody who cares (I not so much, since I'm not a christian):
Have a nice Christmas <3

*New score : 14.65*



*Spoiler: Fey'Do'Ra*
Show





> Does this refer to Planar Touchstone? Because Catalogues of Enlightenment and Monastery of Zerth'Ad'lun are very different feats that happen to have overlapping prerequisites and conditions for use which Defiant is pretty good about facilitating. I'm not sure I understand what's unoriginal about taking both of them.


It's one feat with 2 variations. You are free to switch the plane it's attuned to anytime you want so picking the feat a second time feels redundant to me. No change.




> The way I'm reading it, Elven Spell Lore doesn't help with Divine Cancelation as it gives +2 to CL for dispel attempts when the ability overrides it with a "CL = 5". Inquisition domain on the other hand work pretty well (no penalty, just nitpicking)
> [...]
> It seems like there wasn't a penalty here, so I don't know if it matters, but I did want to clarify that.


There is indeed no penalty and I get your point but you flew past mine. You're saying order of operations is "defiant ability" then "Elven Spell Lore", I'm enclined to think it's more "defiant ability overrides the usual dispel magic ways to set your CL at 5, that's it". But I'm not enforcing this so, no penalty anyways.




> For whatever it's worth, it's much more convenient, and more potentially broken, in almost every case for the Catalogues spells to be divine. This is a narrow edge case where the converse, which I do believe the RAW supports over a claim that the spells are divine, happens to be beneficial.


While that feels true, it's not changing my mind that it's meant to be divine.

_You keep your +0.5 for having made Defiant shine where the other used it to make some other build better. They have no penalty anymore but you keep your bonus._ 

No change in score

----------


## loky1109

Updated table.

*	 	Name	*
*	Alignment / Race	*
*	Class Levels	*
*	Chef	*
*	Paragon	*
*	Loky1109	*
*	Total	*
*	Place	*

 	The Word	
	LE Vivacious Body Hellbred
	ex-Cloistered Cleric Defiant 10/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Righteous Zealot 2

	15.55
	14.45
	30.00
	1st

 	Ka'zi'mir	
	NE-CE Arctic Kobold
	ex-Dragonscale Husk Cleric Defiant 10/Soul Eater 10

	12.25
	12.15
	24.40
	4th

 	Skull Knight	
	LE-CE Human
	ex-Cloistered Cleric Bone Knight 9/Defiant 10/Ur-Priest 1

	14.65
	11.90
	26.55
	2nd

 	Fey'do'ra	
	LN Half-Elf
	ex-Cloistered Cleric Defiant 10/Legacy Champion 10

	11.10
	13.65
	24.75
	3rd

----------


## The Viscount

And one more.



> @ loky1109
> 
> Just a few thoughts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> ...

----------


## loky1109

Hello, Ka'zi'mir! Let's talk.




> Because I like to plan ahead. And this includes WBL when I do pick my base stats.
> I assume that most characters will invest into their mainstat a +5 bonus from wish and a +6 from item, unless it's a low magic campaign. Thus, CHA 17 would be pointless with the +5 from lvlUP and +11 from WBL. With a total bonus of +16 you would end up on CHA 33. A base CHA of 16 leads to a final value of 32.
> And as you also have guessed it, I did wanted to have the 5th lvl spells, even if sole for the 9th lvl of the build.
> This lead me to my choice here.


You said your point was you are item dependent, I understand you correctly, don't I?

If so I maybe give you your +0.25 points here, but also give you -0.25 for item depended.

Plus... Well, let's say all is as you talk.

You have:



> WIS: 15 
> CHA: 16 +5 (ASI) +5 (tomes) = 26


or



> Wis 14 +1 (tome) = 15
> Cha 17 +5 ASI +4 (tomes) = 26


Same stats for the same money. Or even for less money if you want Wis 15 not so much.
Only valuable point is having access to the 5th level spell during 1 level, but you really could afford +2 Wis item.

Penalty stays.

About holy water and reversed names.
I see your points, but it still is a problem. Holy symbols could be not devoted to any god and such symbols could be used by defiants without violation their rules, but about water clearly said "water of any alignment" in contrast to symbols "symbols of any deity". See? Cleric of non deity could use his non-deity holy symbol, but can't use any "alignment water".

About names... Well, I take the point "2. It's not an oath nor a curse, I'm "mocking the gods". Remove *-0.5 points* penalty here. It wasn't penalty, it was ungived bonus, so I give you *+0.5 points*.

Table and judging post are updated.

----------


## Paragon

Is it time for the reveal of both the cooks and new SI ? :)

----------


## The Viscount

You make a good point that we have already had scores in from our judges (which we are all very appreciative of, thank you judges!) and had some disputes. Given that it has been the holidays, I'll say that we have *48 hours* to wrap up any lingering issues, then we can ring out the old year with the reveal.

The question now arises of in what way to ring it out.Get by with a little help from my friendsTarzan BoyEye of the Tiger

----------


## Paragon

It'll be Eye of the Tiger for me, I'm hoping some kind of Bardic/Tiger shapeshifting class hidden somewhere :)

----------


## Wildstag

I'm intrigued by *Tarzan Boy*, but then again I've only contributed with barbarians and barbarian-adjacent characters so far...

----------


## loky1109

Tarzan Boy for me.

----------


## Frostmoon

*Eye of the Tiger!!!* Gimme da kitties!!!!! >:3

----------


## Inevitability

*Get by with a little help from my friends* seems interesting.

----------


## Venger

Tarzan boy sounds fun.

----------


## Paragon

Got anymore of that
Tarzan Boy ?

----------


## Inevitability

Are there any further issues before the reveal?

----------


## The Viscount

Nope, just held up forever at work.

Now the reveal!

*	 	Name	*
*	Alignment / Race	*
*	Class Levels	*
*	Chef	*
*	Paragon	*
*	Loky1109	*
*	Total	*
*	Place	*

  *The Word* 
 *LE Vivacious Body Hellbred*
 *ex-Cloistered Cleric Defiant 10/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Righteous Zealot 2*
 * Inevitability*
 *15.55*
 *14.45*
 *30.00*
 *1st*

  *Ka'zi'mir* 
 *NE-CE Arctic Kobold*
 *ex-Dragonscale Husk Cleric Defiant 10/Soul Eater 10*
 *Gruftzwerg*
 *12.25*
 *12.15*
 *24.40*
 *4th*

  *Skull Knight* 
 *LE-CE Human*
 *ex-Cloistered Cleric Bone Knight 9/Defiant 10/Ur-Priest 1*
 * Gruftzwerg*
 *14.65*
 *11.90*
 *26.55*
 *2nd*

  *Fey'do'ra* 
 *LN Half-Elf*
 *ex-Cloistered Cleric Defiant 10/Legacy Champion 10	*
 *WhamBamSam*
 *11.10*
 *13.65*
 *24.75*
 *3rd*



Congratulations to our chefs!
Next round up shortly.

----------


## Gruftzwerg

Congratulations to Inevitable!

I did enjoy this round more than I did expect it at the beginning.

But there are two thing I wanted to bring up. One build specific and one more general thoughts about the competition.

1. I feel 1 dispute ain't always enough
While I can see that this rule tries to minimize the workload for the judges and tries to fasten the process, I would like to ask if it needs to be that strict? I mean, when it comes to cooking and judging, nobody seems to have a problem if we take (or better said: the Viscount gives) Extra Time. So I don't get why we need to be so strict upon the 1 dispute rule.
Miscommunication can easily happen when talking about rules. And sometimes the judge ain't precise enough where he is seeing the problem (happened to me in another contest..), which makes it near impossible for the cook to address it.
As such, I would like to ask everybody what your thoughts are on this topic? Would you welcome a less strict application of the "1 dispute"-rule?

2. Skull Knight's Clvl to bypass his own SR
I have to admit that I missed to address this on the mainbuild and discovered the cheese afterwards. Imho we can cheese out enough Clvl thx due to the Ur-Priest's specific caster lvl progression:



> To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric don't count.)


1. We have a single lvl of Ur-Prist which provides us with a single Clvl
2. Bone Knight provides Ur-Priest with 8 lvls of progression, pushing our Clvl to 9.
3. Bone Knight is "another spellcasting class than Ur-Priest", thus we can add half of the 9 lvls to our caster lvl. We now have 13 Clvl
4. "Spellcasting Class" is undefined in 3.5. We have specific  SLA rules that tell us: "In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:". This should mean that Defiant should qualify as "spellcasting class" to determine the Ur-Priest's Clvl. This adds another 5 clvl to maximum total of 18Clvl at lvl 20.

We have to beat 25 SR with up to 18 Clvl by default (without any buffs and gear).
We need to roll a natural 7 to pass. Sole 1-6 are fails, which is effectively a 30% chance to fail (or 70% chance to success). With some magic gear to increase Clvl (e.g. Iron Stone) we can further increase the chance of success. 
We could get up to 100% chance via Consumptive Field, but that has also the SR tag. But it could be worth to force it with multiple CF cast attempts at the beginning of the day. Kill some "chicken" and then persist Monstrous Regeneration (with 100% chance to penetrate our own SR).

Cheesy I know, but imho it should work^^.

I really enjoyed this round. Thx at all participants (cooks, judges, the chairman..).

----------

