# Forum > Comics > The Order of the Stick >  What would Roy have done if present?

## Solomon Draak

If Roy was present and withnessed the scene of strip 539, when Belkar stabs a gnome civilian for his cart ,

what would have been his reaction?

Well, he would propably had the Mark of Justice activated. But if a similar thing happened before , or after the mark was already spent, what would have been his answer to this situation?


Also, did he ever knew about that incident afterwards?

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## Metastachydium

> If Roy was present and withnessed the scene of strip 539, when Belkar stabs a gnome civilian for his cart ,
> 
> what would have been his reaction?
> 
> Well, he would propably had the Mark of Justice activated. But if a similar thing happened before , or after the mark was already spent, what would have been his answer to this situation?


Is "Belkar was never dumb enough to do that kind of thing in front of Roy" a satisfying answer? Because I think that's kind of the case.

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## Mike Havran

Roy has already intimidated Belkar from killing a non-enemy once. I think the little man learned his lesson not to murder anyone when there's a man capable and willing to revenge kill you around.

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## Kish

> Is "Belkar was never dumb enough to do that kind of thing in front of Roy" a satisfying answer? Because I think that's kind of the case.


Satisfying or not it doesn't hold water at all. Belkar tries to harvest the teenage goblin's kidneys right in front of Roy. He slaughters surrendering goblins and it's just luck/self-absorption that makes it so Roy isn't looking. He _tries to kill Elan_ in front of Roy. He never once restrained himself from attempting or committing murder in front of his party leader if he wanted to, whether that was Roy or Haley. He would have lunged at Solt just the same if Roy had been there.

Now, whether _Rich_ would have written around it to justify Belkar's continued membership in the Order and survival, that's another question.

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## Metastachydium

> Satisfying or not it doesn't hold water at all. Belkar tries to harvest the teenage goblin's kidneys right in front of Roy. He slaughters surrendering goblins and it's just luck/self-absorption that makes it so Roy isn't looking. He _tries to kill Elan_ in front of Roy. He never once restrained himself from attempting or committing murder in front of his party leader if he wanted to, whether that was Roy or Haley. He would have lunged at Solt just the same if Roy had been there.


Well, DCF!Roy slaughtered helpless goblins in their helpless sleep; Belkar abandoned the organ theft plan immediately once probably!Roy expressed dissent (and the intended recipient was threatened with violence moments earlier by Roy himslef) and the Solt incident came _after_ Roy explaining Belkar that he will enforce "his arbitrary morals" if he steps out of line.

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## Synesthesy

There is a point in the story where Roy is barely, really barely enduring Belkar's presence, and that's because (as he told to the Deva) Belkar would be worst free roaming in the world than going with him. If Belkar did something stupid like killing the gnome where Roy would see him, I think that this action would make the above statement false, and Roy would probably think that, as Belkar is now his problem, he should resolve it with his own hands. I can't see Roy killing Belkar in cold blood, but I can totally see Roy giving Belkar to justice the first time they where in a civilized place able to keep him on check (that, in the story, surely wasn't Azure city anymore, it may not be the thieves' city, it wouldn't be the Empire of Blood, but it would be at least the Dwarven Kingdom). Add to that that the mark of justice made Belkar unable to run away from Roy, this is probably what Roy would have done.

Obviously Belkar would have plenty of time to redeem himself this way.

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## Kish

His effort to kill Elan was well after the rest of the party yelled at him not to kill the teenage goblin; he never indicated being swayed by either but you're declaring (based on what evidence?) that the second one indicated a change in his attitude. Okay. Now point to a single solitary example of Belkar restraining himself from killing because it's in front of Roy, to go with the multiple examples of the opposite that you just handwaved away. 'Cause you know, imagining that the threat he received changed his attitude toward casual killing in front of Roy for more than the immediate case of killing Elan doesn't obligate anyone else to imagine the same, especially but not limited to since that hinges on abilities to move from the specific "don't kill Elan" to the general "don't kill anyone" and to actually internalize "they really don't want me to casually kill," both of which he has many, many examples of not doing.

You can't, because none exists. Until partway through Blood Runs in the Family he was a loose cannon who murdered people on whims; he's always acted exactly the same, morally speaking, in front of Roy and in front of Haley.

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## Peelee

> His effort to kill Elan was well after the rest of the party yelled at him not to kill the teenage goblin; he never indicated being swayed by either but you're declaring (based on what evidence?) that the second one indicated a change in his attitude. Okay. Now point to a single solitary example of Belkar restraining himself from killing because it's in front of Roy, to go with the multiple examples of the opposite that you just handwaved away. 'Cause you know, imagining that the threat he received changed his attitude toward casual killing in front of Roy for more than the immediate case of killing Elan doesn't obligate anyone else to imagine the same, especially but not limited to since that hinges on abilities to move from the specific "don't kill Elan" to the general "don't kill anyone" and to actually internalize "they really don't want me to casually kill," both of which he has many, many examples of not doing.
> 
> You can't, because none exists. Until partway through Blood Runs in the Family he was a loose cannon who murdered people on whims; he's always acted exactly the same, morally speaking, in front of Roy and in front of Haley.


While I agree with everything you said here, Belkar never got to pal around with Roy while outside of city limits with Roy knowing how to activate the Mark of Justice, which we do know Belkar actively avoided triggering to the best of his ability. It's not unreasonable to assume he would have been more servile to Roy under those circumstances.

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## brian 333

By that point in the story I cannot rule out the possibility that Roy would have taken the opportunity to take out his frustrations in general on Belkar.

"You goad Miko into killing Shojo," *smack*
"You abandon O'Chul to the monster," *thwack!*
"You are generally more annoying than a horde of rabid kender," *crack!!*
"And now you want to kill a random NPC for some twisted reason you just made up? To Hel with foreshadowing your surprise attack on The Oracle!" *Smack/crack thwack!*

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## Metastachydium

> His effort to kill Elan was well after the rest of the party yelled at him not to kill the teenage goblin; he never indicated being swayed by either but you're declaring (based on what evidence?) that the second one indicated a change in his attitude. Okay. Now point to a single solitary example of Belkar restraining himself from killing because it's in front of Roy, to go with the multiple examples of the opposite that you just handwaved away. 'Cause you know, imagining that the threat he received changed his attitude toward casual killing in front of Roy for more than the immediate case of killing Elan doesn't obligate anyone else to imagine the same, especially but not limited to since that hinges on abilities to move from the specific "don't kill Elan" to the general "don't kill anyone" and to actually internalize "they really don't want me to casually kill," both of which he has many, many examples of not doing.
> 
> You can't, because none exists. Until partway through Blood Runs in the Family he was a loose cannon who murdered people on whims; he's always acted exactly the same, morally speaking, in front of Roy and in front of Haley.


I didn't "handwave" anything; I merely dismissed, and with arguments, your examples, which was made easier, I must add, by the fact that the most recent of those was from early _No Cure_, and the rest from freakin' _DCF_ (you know, right? The one with Roy beheading defenseless, sleeping opponents with smug glee, V employing Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, Durkon killing a goblin with his pure hatred, Haley groping Elan's behind making him expressly uncomfortable, Elan exploiting Roy's inability to move, drawing unkind stuff on and around his body with Belkar, MitD and Redcloak watching porn together &c.). 

Maybe if you pointed out a single instance of Belkar casually murdering unarmed noncombatants in front of Roy from later in the comic I'd be less skeptical about the validity of your "incontestable" point, don't you think?

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## hamishspence

In _Don't Split The Party_ commentary, the Giant does comment that without Roy to rein Belkar in, he's gotten worse, even with the Mark of Justice on - that Haley is _worse at_ controlling Belkar than Roy is.

Belkar comments in _Blood Runs In The Family_ that he nearly vomited himself to death because Roy wasn't around to "keep him from doing something stupid".

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html



As early as the Bandit Camp arc, Belkar showed a tendency to defy Haley when Roy was not around.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html

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## woweedd

Given that Roy had the ability to activate Belkar's Mark of Justice, and is just generally someone Belkar has mildly-more-...Not respect, but perhaps fear of (partly because of the Mark of Justice, partly because, as we have seen, Roy is both willing and able to smack Belkar down if he tries to push too far. Haley just doesn't quite have the same air of command to her, and she's aware of it.

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## Chincaa

Would Roy not simply have activated the mark of justice, which Belkar still had when he killed the gnome?

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## Kish

Most likely, or stood between Belkar and the gnome and ordered him to stand down as he did earlier with the Oracle.

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## woweedd

> Most likely, or stood between Belkar and the gnome and ordered him to stand down as he did earlier with the Oracle.


And it probably would have worked, considering he A. Has the Mark of Justice and B. I think, for all his ego, Belkar realizes Roy could, as we've seen,  beat him down really easily if he goes too far, Mark of Justice or no.

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## Fyraltari

I think there's also an element of force of personnality. Roy is the type to take charge and tell people what to do. Probably because the last time he uncritically accepted his father's authority, his baby brother died.

Haley on the other hand, does not concern herself much with what others are doing. She'd rather be left to her own devices and not having to be responsible for other people's actions. She's not used to being a leader so while she's competent enough to deal with people who actually want her in charge (like her own resistance group) she's does not know how to assert her authority over someone like Belkar (as was already clear from her carrying him a cart that one time for example) who doesn't respect it.

It probably didn't help that Belkar knows her to also have been a troublemaker back in the early books.

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## woweedd

> I think there's also an element of force of personnality. Roy is the type to take charge and tell people what to do. Probably because the last time he uncritically accepted his father's authority, his baby brother died.
> 
> Haley on the other hand, does not concern herself much with what others are doing. She'd rather be left to her own devices and not having to be responsible for other people's actions. She's not used to being a leader so while she's competent enough to deal with people who actually want her in charge (like her own resistance group) she's does not know how to assert her authority over someone like Belkar (as was already clear from her carrying him a cart that one time for example) who doesn't respect it.
> 
> It probably didn't help that Belkar knows her to also have been a troublemaker back in the early books.


Yep. Haley's Chaotic, and I think, on some level, she doesn't like the idea of having to be the authority figure in things. Belkar's occasional willingness to get along with her is actually a hiderence, as it means he doesn't really fear her as an authority, the way he does Roy.

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## brian 333

Durkon had to be told it was okay to attack a frog that was eating Roy.
Haley had to be told to do anything more than pick up loot.
Elan... Anything he suggests should be approved by a sober responsible adult.
Which leaves Belkar.

Sadly, as demonstrated very early in the comic's run, Roy's team wasn't exactly top shelf in the thinking for themselves brand. They literally forced Roy to micromanage. It is only now, since the Pyramid, that the OotS members are learning to work as a team. Roy was bossy, but his team made him that way. As the team picks up  he's learning to trust them more and boss them less.

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