# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  Knekt-Pass  The Four Knights  a Thought Experiment

## Arkhios

The other day, I was looking at the Fighter Subclasses, and I realized there are currently four official subclasses whose names include the word Knight, and for shiggles I came up with an idea:

What if you were to play a game where you had only four player characters, and all were fighters, one of each Knights, to form the "standard" four roles as defined in 4th edition: Controller, Defender, Leader, and Striker (a.k.a. "Wizard, Fighter, Cleric, Rogue" respectively.)

And, because I couldn't resist it, why not add some flavor and call it the "Knekt-Pass Group" (an old swedish playing cards trick-game, although unfamiliar to me rules-wise)
Knight of Clubs: Controller (Eldritch Knight?)
Knight of Diamonds: Defender (Rune Knight?)
Knight of Hearts: Leader (Purple Dragon Knight?)
Knight of Spades: Striker (Echo Knight?)

What I'm interested in, is how would you build each one? Feats and multiclass are allowed, though I'd say no more than one other class per character, with up to 8 levels in the other class. (After all, I'd prefer them to feel like fighters as much as possible, and what better way to do that than having _at least_ three attacks per Attack action).

Also, which subclass is which is entirely up to you, the above listing is merely a suggestion.

*Spoiler: Alternative list of builds by yours truly*
Show

Knight of Hearts: Leader/Healer
Eldritch Knight X, House Jorasco halfling (Mark of Healing): Artificer initiate, War Caster, Ritual Caster (cleric)

Knight of Clubs: Striker
Echo Knight 12/Assassin 8, Bugbear, Reach Weapon (whip), Mobile and Sentinel feats

Knight of Diamonds: Defender/Healer
Purple Dragon Knight 12/Crown Paladin 8, Protector Aasimar, Healer and Leader feats.

Knight of Spades: Controller
Rune Knight X, Metallic Dragonborn.

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## Unoriginal

> Also, which subclass is which is entirely up to you, the above listing is merely my own preference.


Interesting thought experiment, but I have to advise you against linking to the site you linked, as this site is against the forum's rules.

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## Arkhios

> this site is against the forum's rules.


Huh, didn't know that forgot the rule about illegal content. I'll cut them asap.

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## Boci

In a full party, you'd want at least 1 to go dex, and likely ranged, archery style. With the current matchup that's likely going to be the purple heart, which is fine, none of their abilities require them to be in melee. I'm sceptical how well an eldritch knight will be a controller, but with a reach weapon, polaearm mastery and stand still that's about as good as a fighter can hope to be. With classes locked in you'll probably be looking at races for versatility. Tiefling is a good choice, since they gain a cantrip and 2 levelled spells, fairy rune knight is always hilarious.

  An obvious issue is healing midcombat, the only way this group can take advantage of pop-up healing is the purple knight's ability to share second wind. Not an insurmountable by any means.

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## Arkhios

> In a full party, you'd want at least 1 to go dex, and likely ranged, archery style. With the current matchup that's likely going to be the purple heart, which is fine, none of their abilities require them to be in melee. I'm sceptical how well an eldritch knight will be a controller, but with a reach weapon, polaearm mastery and stand still that's about as good as a fighter can hope to be. With classes locked in you'll probably be looking at races for versatility. Tiefling is a good choice, since they gain a cantrip and 2 levelled spells, fairy rune knight is always hilarious.
> 
>   An obvious issue is healing midcombat, the only way this group can take advantage of pop-up healing is the purple knight's ability to share second wind. Not an insurmountable by any means.


If you think that the roles do not match the subclass, then go ahead and present an alternative. As I said in OP, it's entirely up to you, not written in stone.  :Small Smile: 

FWIW, you could make a midcombat healer from an Eldritch Knight by taking the Artificer Initiate feat and learning Cure Wounds with it (keyed off of intelligence, of course). Or you could be a halfling (with the dragonmark of healing), and learn quite a few spells to aid in that task. Or you could multiclass as I also suggested (though, admittedly, that kind of spoils the fun of the challenge).

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## Particle_Man

Knight of Hearts: Leader (Purple Dragon Knight?) - King Arthur
Knight of Spades: Striker (Echo Knight?) - Sir Lancelot
Knight of Diamonds: Defender (Rune Knight?) - Sir Galahad
Knight of Clubs: Controller (Eldritch Knight?) - Sir Robin  :Small Big Grin:

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## J-H

How about Psi Knight?
Echo Knight is pseudo-3rd party, so I don't usually see it in play.

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## RogueJK

> Knight of Clubs: Controller (Eldritch Knight?)
> Knight of Diamonds: Defender (Rune Knight?)
> Knight of Hearts: Leader (Purple Dragon Knight?)
> Knight of Spades: Striker (Echo Knight?)


Knight of Hearts: Leader/Healer:
Half Elf Mastermind or Thief Rogue 3/Purple Dragon Knight X
High CHA, decent DEX and CON
Inspiring Leader and Healer feats
Interception Fighting Style
Expertise in all the Face skills, between Rogue 1 and Purple Dragon Knight 7

Knight of Clubs: Caster/Shadowblade Striker
Shadar-Kai War Wizard 2/Eldritch Knight X
High DEX, decent CON and INT
Dueling Fighting Style
Warcaster and Elven Accuracy feats; maybe Ritual Caster Wizard for higher level rituals

Knight of Spades: Tank/Muscle/Nova
VHuman Ancestral Guardian Barbarian 3/Echo Knight Fighter X
High STR and CON
GWF or Defense Fighting Style
GWM and Sentinel Feats

Knight of Diamonds: Scout/Air Support/Controller/Debuffer
Owlin Rune Knight X
High DEX and CON
Archery fighting style
Sharpshooter and Skill Expert (Stealth) feat

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## Arkhios

> How about Psi Knight?
> Echo Knight is pseudo-3rd party, so I don't usually see it in play.


Psi Knight is from Unearthed Arcana/Playtest document. Psi Warrior is what it's called in officially published product, so it kind of doesn't fit. I know, I'm being pedantic, but you got to put some ground rules for things like these.

Admittedly, Echo Knight is penned by the creator of Critical Role (Matt Mercer), but that's neither here nor there. Since the book has been published by WotC, I count it as official as they come. Besides, even I have to admit, that it is incredibly well designed, and actually quite cool as well.

To be honest, I did consider allowing two more subclasses, but the analogy with the card game was too hilarious to pass:
Cavalier is, etymologically, synonymous to Knight.Samurai is, all things considered, a japanese version of a knight.
Ultimately I decided against it to go along with the "joke" (must have the word Knight).

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## Boci

> If you think that the roles do not match the subclass, then go ahead and present an alternative. As I said in OP, it's entirely up to you, not written in stone.


  As I said, I think eldritch knight is as good a controller as a fighter can hope to be.




> FWIW, you could make a midcombat healer from an Eldritch Knight by taking the Artificer Initiate feat and learning Cure Wounds with it (keyed off of intelligence, of course). Or you could be a halfling (with the dragonmark of healing), and learn quite a few spells to aid in that task. Or you could multiclass as I also suggested (though, admittedly, that kind of spoils the fun of the challenge).


  To take advantage of pop up healing you really want bonus action, especially for a group of fighters where the "cantrips only" limit is even less meaningful with attacking an option for your action. But its not a huge loss if the group can't reliably do that, and these are solid options.

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## Arkhios

> As I said, I think eldritch knight is as good a controller as a fighter can hope to be.


Fair, I didn't read your previous post too well apparently.




> To take advantage of pop up healing you really want bonus action, especially for a group of fighters where the "cantrips only" limit is even less meaningful with attacking an option for your action. But its not a huge loss if the group can't reliably do that, and these are solid options.


Yeah, Healing Word would be a lot better than Cure Wounds for pop up healing, so if you truly want it without multiclassing, House Jorasco halfling is just about the only option for that. Artificer gets it only through a subclass, so the feat doesn't help in that regard.

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## Unoriginal

To continue the joke, all of them should take the Knight background and have proficiency in a gaming set (card game).

Knight of Diamond could be an Earth Genasi.

Maybe the Knight of Club could be a Shillelagh-using build...

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## Arkhios

> To continue the joke, all of them should take the Knight background and have proficiency in a gaming set (card game).


 :Small Big Grin:  Definitely so!

Four different Knights of the Order (orders of Clubs, Diamond, Hearts, and Spades, respectively)




> Knight of Diamond could be an Earth Genasi.


Or that Gem dragonborn from FTD (Crystal maybe?)!  :Small Cool: 

...or one of seven gem-addled miner dwarves.  :Small Big Grin:

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## Corran

> To continue the joke, all of them should take the Knight background and have proficiency in a gaming set (card game)


Absolutely. Choose the followers bg feature, and find some way to convince the DM to let you break the action economy expected from a non optimized party.

Next step is to start discussing why your party's heroic deeds have not attracted any sidekicks yet (warrior squires and bard like experts/ priests most likely).

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The EK could be nice as a sort of controller/ (though more actually) buffer. Use ES to reduce the enemies' chance of saving, and throw a grease or web at them. Proceed with exploiting advantage to the max by having knights left and right go ham with the -5/+10 feats along with action surge if necessary. Shield bashing or simply knocking someone prone can have similar effects for melee, so athletics proficiency and even expertise should be seriously considered. Fog cloud (and darkness, but ideally coming from another knight, most likely through race) and blind fighting shenanigans most definitely too, if for no other reason because they are easily accessible and can be made to be worth the investment in more than one ways with an all fighter set up (a shame to give up archery but I'd go for it).

Sharpshooter most likely for all of them (I think rune knights get something that allows increased vision in the dark, which plays nicely with an all SS party, especially with action surge as an option for everyone; even if I am misremembering, I'd still go with sharpshooter for all for the increased range -moatly), one of GWM or BB also for all of them. If multiclassing, then I'd have one of them get 3 druid levels for that infamous healing spell, along with PWT (though I think rune knights get something similar, so the spell pick could to something else) and I think healing word? Wildshape is not bad either. Artificer dip for supplying magical weapons if it's not too taxing. Inspiring leader a must have, probably picked by the PDK who has some more uses for CHA.

Not too familiar with the non EK knights, but I am pretty certain that pushing the subclasses to fill more distinct roles will start biting back pretty soon. I'd go for just a little bit of covering the basics of a role, but always with emphasis of how this translates to the party. That is why for example my EK would focus on spells like grease or web (instead of say, phantasmal force, levitate or fear) to pair with eldritch strike, as I am looking at the kind of control that can also offer a damage boost via restraining, which is something that a group of fighters can make the most of if equipped appropriately.

Anyway, this is more of a theoritical exercise I guess on your part, so I probably went a bit off topic

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