# Forum > Play-by-Post Games > Finding Players (Recruitment) > Out-of-Character >  The Thrice-Blessed OOC

## Ridai

Here's the OOC for Shiver's game. Here is the IC thread.

Echo and Slider's shared character sheet

Map of the Savage Frontier

*Spoiler: Background setting information*
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So the year is DR 1490, the Second Sundering happened a few years ago, once again more or less returning Toril to how it was before it was fused with its twin planet Abeir a hundred years ago, and the gods decided to become more distant and meddle less in the affairs of mortals. Giants are much larger than in 3.5, all of them Huge size. On average, it goes like this: hill giants 16ft, fire giants 18ft, stone giants 18ft, frost giants 21ft, cloud giants 24ft, storm giants 26ft.

Annam the All-Father, the highest of the giants' gods (each of the giant races also having their own parent deity who serves Annam), decreed the Ordning in ancient times, which is like a ranking of status of the giant races. Those higher in the Ordning are able to command and expect fealty from those below them. Even the lowest member of a higher "caste" is superior to the leader of a lower "caste". The order (from highest to lowest) is:
- storm giants (mostly good aligned, rulers of all giantkind, tremendously powerful and eminently charismatic)
- cloud giants (often haughty aristocrats with magic talents, evenly split between good and evil on average)
- fire giants (very much evil warmongers, slavers, and blacksmiths, especially of weapons, armor, and war machinery)
- frost giants (mostly raiders trending towards evil, and basically fantasy vikings; they hardly make anything themselves, instead hunting game or raiding for supplies and sometimes slaves)
- stone giants (very spiritual and athletic; somewhat removed from the world, relatively neutral in their outlook)
- hill giants (evil idiots raiding for food and shinies. Just the lowest of the low and by far the weakest and smallest giant race)

The Ordning for the vast majority of giants is like a natural law. It's as normal as breathing or gravity, and the storm giants (the current ruler being King Hekaton) have done a good job keeping the peace between giants and that they are mostly free to do their own things, so it isn't a major source of conflict for giantkind as a whole. Many giants won't even necessarily run into giants of other castes or be inconvenienced by them, and serving higher castes is not necessarily seen as a bad thing (though serving the storm giants is probably seen as the most prestigious). Still, there are, naturally, also giants who have ambitions beyond their place in the Ordning or dislike serving the higher castes. Frost giants and fire giants probably like each other the least, so they tend to avoid each other (it helps their territories tend to rarely overlap), though some fire giants can't help but rub their higher status in the frost giants' faces. 


*Spoiler: Shiver background information*
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Shiver herself was born far in the north, in the icy reaches of the Icewind Dale, far from the small folk settlements known the Ten Towns. Due to peculiar happenstance, assumed to be the stars being just right (or wrong, depending on what giant you ask), Shiver was born with talent, strength, and beauty beyond compare, but also the peculiar trait that she could assume the size of small folk, and during her youth had periods of being "stuck" at such a height (which caused some derision by other giants), before her talent stabilized and became fully controllable as an adult. Due to this, Shiver was able to walk among the small folk unrecognized as a giantess if she desired to, and has always been able to understand them and their motivations, hopes, and worries more than her fellow frost giants, who for the most part are cruel and uncaring towards the small folk (and most other beings, to be honest).

For as long as she can remember, Shiver's particular clan has been led and ruled by the jarl known as Storvald, and since rank is determined by strength and deeds among frost giants, this means he has been able to best all comers for decades. A powerful and cruel jarl, with relentless ambitions and knowing many legends, which raised Storvald's clan above several others and made many think twice about challenging them. Due to Shiver's power (meaning being a frost giantess but also getting player character ability scores AND also having class levels) and her one-of-a-kind charisma, she would have been able to quickly rise through the ranks (though if she actually wanted to is up to you), especially when clans met and wrestled for dominance, events that are akin to festivals for frost giants, sometimes full of boasts and challenges and cheering, sometimes just chaotic free-for-alls. Thus, she has likely been taken along on the jarl's gigantic warship known as the Krigvind on a few occasions, whether for hunting whales or raiding (if Shiver wanted to).

More recently, Jarl Storvald and his clan conquered an ancient giant settlement located in an iceberg known as Svardborg, making it their new homebase, and subjugated two white dragons who made their lair there. Svardborg is located somewhere in the Sea of Moving Ice, but her muddled memory currently makes it impossible where in that vast expanse of evershifting ice it could be found.


*Two Memories*
Shiver's unique ability to assume the size of small folk has led to a few unique experiences:

When she was still a teenager and at the moment stuck in the size of small folk, Shiver was on a beach of the Sword Coast (left behind by other frost giants as a prank as they had sailed away), when from the waves emerged two storm giantesses, who at first mistook Shiver for small folk. Perhaps to her surprise, they smiled to her, greeted her, and the older of the two introduced herself as Queen Neri, with the younger (just barely older than Shiver was at the time) being her youngest daughter Serissa. Shiver met the wife and daughter of the reigning king of the storm giants, and thus of all giants, and she was awestruck by their grace, beauty, and how they treated Shiver, going so far as to spend the day with her. Shiver learned Neri and Serissa loved to meet small folk at the beaches, both being very fond of them, and even when Shiver's true nature and peculiar trait were revealed, she found she was treated well regardless. Serissa took the small Shiver and swam her back to her home beach, having become very fond of the frost giantess, and to Shiver, Serissa may be the single most beautiful and gracious giantess she has ever met. Shiver met Neri and Serissa a few more times over the years, until they could no longer visit the small folk by the beaches, as the lands became too dangerous and Serissa had to start fulfill her royal duties at court.

If Shiver explored the Ten Towns of the Icewind Dale more recently, she met a lively human woman called Beldora, seemingly getting by on the streets of the largest of the settlements, Bryn Shander. Beldora took a shine to Shiver (though part of it may also have been attraction) and loved showing her around, furnishing her with stories. Beldora seemed very resourceful and like she knew quite a bit about what is going on in the Ten Towns and beyond. 


*Spoiler: Jarl Storvald's Frost giant clan*
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Also yup, the vast majority of frost giants, male and female, are obsessed with strength, love raiding, and have no qualms about slavery. Why make something if you can take it from someone else or have it done by someone else. Might makes right, and if you bring charisma in addition to that, taking decisive action, achieving glory in battle, even better. Strength determines your rank in the clan, how much respect you receive from other giants, your choices in mates/sex partners, how much of the loot you can claim etc. So naturally, the most brutal often rise to the top, hence current day frost giants trending heavily towards evil. A good-aligned jarl would face a bit of an uphill battle to change their subjects' minds and probably be challenged a lot. But at the same time, if the jarl can still best all comers, hey, that means what the jarl says goes, clearly being the best of them, and if someone doesn't like it, they can challenge the jarl and try to take the title or shut the hell up. So things can be both simple and extremely volatile at the same time among frost giants. Men and women are effectively equally strong (no height difference between the genders in current D&D), so frost giants have a brutal variant of meritocracy and gender equality (and the nastier examples of both genders are equally bad when it comes to claiming unwilling mates).

Judging from Shiver's background info, it seems that Jarl Storvald's clan is imbalanced to males being stronger on average, leading to the odd case of a frost giant clan seeing women as weaker in general because that is what they are used to (with a few exceptions, such as Shiver). One of the clans Shiver's clan had a contest with was led by a female Jarl, for example, and the higher echelon of that clan was more or less evenly split between the genders, because those happened to be the strongest ones. The female Jarl saw the situation in Shiver's clan and saw nothing wrong with it, because well, if the clan's males are stronger, they should be on top. Though Storvald's males trying to apply their prejudices to the female Jarl's clanswomen swiftly blew up in their faces during the contest in a few instances (though not all). 


*Spoiler: Frost Giant monster class (Shiver variant)*
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*The Frost Giant (Shiver variant)*
Hit Die: d8
Skills: 2+Int (Climb, Craft, Jump, Perform, Profession, Spot)

Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special

1st
+1
+2
+0
+0
Star Blessing, Cold subtype, +2 natural armor

2nd
+2
+3
+0
+0
+2 Con

3rd
+3
+3
+1
+1
+2 Str, +4 natural armor

4th
+4
+3
+1
+1
Rock throwing (1d6, 30ft range increment)

5th
+5
+4
+1
+1
+2 Str, rock catching

6th
+6/+1
+5
+2
+2
Large size, reach 10ft, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +6 natural armor

7th
+7/+2
+5
+2
+2
+2 Str

8th
+8/+3
+6
+2
+2
+2 Str, rock throwing (1d8, 60ft range increment)

9th
+9/+4
+6
+3
+3
+2 Con, +8 natural armor

10th
+10/+5
+7
+3
+3
+2 Str, +9 natural armor

11th
+11/+6/+1
+7
+3
+3
Rock throwing (2d6, 120ft range increment)

12th
+12/+7/+2
+8
+4
+4
Huge size, 15ft reach, +2 Str, +2 Cha

13th
+13/+8/+3
+8
+4
+4
Rock throwing (2d8, 140ft range increment), +2 Con

14th
+14/+9/+4
+9
+4
+4
+2 Str, +2 Con



*Class features:*
*Star blessing (Su):* _Shiver was born when the stars were in a particular alignment, imbuing her with a strange gift, as well as beauty never seen before in a frost giantess. Despite being born a frost giantess, she was able to assume the size of smaller creatures, like the Large size of a troll, or the Medium size of a human, yet retained her full might, and is able to pass as a human when she desired to._ 
- The living ideal of a frost giantess, Shiver gains her Charisma bonus to AC as an untyped bonus that also applies to her touch AC and flat-footed AC. She loses this bonus if she is immobilized or helpless, wears armor, carries a shield, or carries a medium or heavy load.

- Shiver can, in most circumstances, pass herself as a human, if an exotic, tall, and extremely beautiful one, without needing to roll. As long as she is Medium size, that is. Once Large or bigger, her giant nature becomes readily apparent.

- Once she reaches Large or Huge size, she can change her size as a swift action from her current one to Medium or any size she has gained through her frost giant class. She retains all bonuses and abilities gained by the frost giant class no matter what size she currently has (with the exception of reach, as that is an effect of size). However, changing size applies its usual changes. Her space and reach increase or decrease, size bonuses and penalties are applied, her weapon damage dice are adjusted, carrying capacity changes. All her worn equipment is changed to the appropriate size whenever Shiver changes her size. Changing her size does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Shiver has to have enough empty space around her to change, otherwise she either has to try and burst through whatever is hindering her from changing with a strength check, or has to abort her attempt to change size. Some rare effects hindering magic may affect her ability to change size.

*Proficiencies:* All simple and martial weapons, light armor, shields

*Ability score bonuses:* All ability score bonuses shown in the table stack with each other and increase Shiver's base ability scores. Changes to Constitution retroactively increase her maximum hit points, as per usual with Constitution increases leading to a higher modifier.

*Natural armor:* These bonuses do not stack. Use the highest current natural armor bonus gained.

*Rock throwing (Ex):* Shiver gains a +1 bonus to attacks when throwing rocks (or whatever else big and heavy she rips out of her environment). Shiver can throw an object for the indicated damage + her Strength bonus, with a range increment as shown on the table. The object can be thrown up to 5 range increments. If a suitable object to throw is within Shiver's reach and is both unattended as well as not somehow prevented from being lifted, she can pick the object up in the same action used to throw it. With enough strength and size, Shiver may become able to rip pieces of the environment out to throw at her enemies, such as ripping out pieces of a defensive wall or pieces of ruins.

*Rock catching (Ex):* Shiver can catch rocks (or similar objects) thrown at her of a size up to her current size. Once per round, when Shiver would normally be hit by a rock, she can make a Reflex save to catch it as a free action. DC 10 for a Small rock, DC 15 for a Medium one, DC 20 for a Large one, and DC 25 for a Huge one. (If the projectile has a magical bonus to attack, the DC increases by that amount). Shiver must be aware of the attack and able to catch the projectile.



Level-up information: max HP per level, one feat every odd level, retroactive HP and skill points on Con and Int increases, whenever Shiver gains an ability score increase every 4th level, she can spend it on any ability score except Charisma, as Charisma automatically increases by 1 on those levels.

*Spoiler: List of daily buffs*
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Here is the total list of daily spells that are now applied to Shiver, Drufi, and/or Echo & Slider that last the entire day due to Persist Spell, or basically the entire day due to being hour/level spells that got Extended, so please add these bonuses straight to your sheet in the appropriate fields (you will also find this list in the first post of the OOC). These will be renewed every day without pointing out every day that they are cast:
*Elation* (on the whole group): +2 morale bonus to Strength and Dexterity, +5ft to speed.*Recitation* (on everyone except Sìle): +2 luck bonus to AC, saving throws, and attacks.*Righteous Wrath of the Faithful* (on the whole group): +3 morale bonus to attacks and damage, and during a full attack, you can make an extra attack at your full base attack bonus (does not stack with extra attacks from _haste_ and the like).*Magic Vestment* (on Shiver and Drufi): Shiver's clothes and Drufi's armor now grant a +2 enhancement bonus to armor AC.*Greater Resistance* (on Drufi, Echo & Slider): +3 resistance bonus to saving throws (was not cast on Shiver due to only marginal increase).*Greater Magic Weapon* (on Drufi): Drufi's masterwork axe now has a +2 enhancement bonus to attack and damage, and counts as magical.
Additionally, Sìle has applied persisted spells to herself, which indirectly benefit the others: *Positive Energy Aura* heals all living creatures within 10ft of Sìle for 4 HP every round, and damages undead for 8 HP per round. *Soul of Light* lets Sìle add +2 per spell level to the HP recovered by instantaneous healing spells she casts, and if she heals for 10 HP or more, she can also remove fatigue or downgrade exhausted to fatigued.



Please check in and claim blue color.  :Small Tongue:

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## MikelaC1

claiming this blue or this blue?

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## Ridai

I would ask for the standard blue, as the light blue is hard to read against a white background.

Also no worries about posting speed. I wanted to finish setting things up while I had the time and quiet to do so. Work has been draining mentally, so it's nice to have most of the prep out of the way.

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## MikelaC1

my attempts at spectacular are being frustrated by an uncooperative roller

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## Ridai

Shiver levels up! The giant side gains level 4 of Shiver's frost giant class (see first post of this thread), and as mentioned in the same post, she gets max HP for the level. Since she can increase her attributes this level, she automatically gains +1 Charisma, as well as one point in one of the other five attributes (so for example +1 Str, +1 Cha).

Sìle, mysteriously, levels up as well, also getting to level 4.

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## MikelaC1

Man, the roller just does NOT like Shiver....for anything

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## Ridai

The roller really isn't playing nice.  :Small Annoyed: 

As a note, this whole Nightstone section including the goblins is a bit of a test area for me to see how things work out and what might need some adjustments. This also goes for the NPCs. Teeka is there mostly for shenanigans, but you can just get rid of her or take her along as you like. Same goes for Sìle, even. If you feel like you'd rather have Shiver work on her own or would like a different companion, we can work something out.

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## Ridai

Is Shiver going to the town gate she came through and shouting to the village? Is she trying to get to the gate of the castle and shouting to the castle? If the latter, she has to get across the broken bridge, which has about a 20ft gap, so would be a DC 20 Jump check.

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## MikelaC1

*Spoiler: Jump*
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[roll]d20+13[/roll}
 about time to make one

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## MikelaC1

*Spoiler: Jump*
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(1d20+13)[*27*]
 about time to make one

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## MikelaC1

Have I mentioned how much I hate the roller?

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## MikelaC1

Question: most gate lifting devices feature a gear with a lever that drops into place to hold the gear at each 'notch'....would that be the case here?

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## Ridai

Yep, that is currently holding the drawbridge at an angle.

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## Ridai

The drawbridge points towards the outside of Nightstone. You and the Zhents are on the inside.

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## MikelaC1

It would take all of the available non-weapon bonus but thematically, Shiver should aim to one day own a varpal weapon

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## MikelaC1

Souldnt have put that second damage roll in because it came out lower.

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## Ridai

Shiver should be doing 2d6+8 damage without rage, due to two-handed weapons doing x1.5 Strength modifier damage. With rage, she goes up to +11. 

Is Shiver using her Rage right now? If you do, please actually write OOC that you are using a specific ability or action or whatever, as I can't tell what is supposed to be fluff and what is supposed to be an actual declaration of action without it.

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## MikelaC1

Yes, she is currently raging

(2d6+11)[*19*] damage

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## MikelaC1

Took _Extend Rage_ as a feat. Will wait until level7 for weapon focus

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## Ridai

You already had nine rounds of rage duration and this whole extended boss fight with the enemy having high AC and a lot of HP and dealing a fair bit of damage took five or six, which was already on the long side. I do not have any plans for fights lasting 10+ rounds, especially with Shiver having companions.

I did give Shiver a few bonuses, like excess damage carrying over into potentially killing multiple enemies, and having companions, which make fights shorter, but if you would prefer a more "true" experience without all that, so actually soloing the game, mostly playing the game as intended, and having longer fights, I can arrange for that. Just need to know beforehand. The whole Nightstone chapter is for figuring things out.

Shiver is now also up to 4 rages per day due to her levels and Extra Rage feat.

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## MikelaC1

Changed feat to Weapon Focus

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## Ridai

So... is Shiver ignoring Snigbat? 

The path outside the side cave splits. The left path leads towards the laughing and creature sounds, the right towards the central cave.

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## MikelaC1

Are Sile and Teeka not following Snigbat? Or are we dividing to come at the central cave from two angles?

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## Ridai

Snigbat isn't going anywhere, she is waiting for an answer whether Shiver wants to take out the ogres and Hark to make Snigbat the boss instead.

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## Ridai

Few sheet corrections: Max skill rank for level 6 is 9, she now has +6 natural armor bonus, Shiver should have a total of 45 skill ranks due to her intelligence. Congrats, Shiver gets another maxed skill.

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## MikelaC1

done and done

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## MikelaC1

> (Shiver knows that direct power squabbles between storm giants and cloud giants normally are not possible due to the Ordning creating a strict order of giants, though many cloud giants still attempt to gain favor with various storm giants and such for political gain and prestige over other cloud giants, much like a society of nobles. At the same time, Shiver as a frost giantess giving cloud giants crap, deservedly or not, when they are not around, also seems perfectly fine.)


The second part of your reasoning.....

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## MikelaC1

Did you say that I had some vague memories of where I was headed before everything went askew?

On a side note, what would you say about an 18th level, no gestalt, no evil game?

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## Ridai

Shiver's most "recent" memory (as in most recent before her memory gap) is arriving in Bryn Shander in the Icewind Dale and from there heading towards the south (which is at that point pretty vague, as south of the Icewind Dale is basically the whole Sword Coast and its various cities and towns). Since this is the Forgotten Realms, it has the benefit of much recent official support, including a fancy map for the Savage Frontier. You'll find Nightstone pretty far down and near the cost, between Neverwinter and Deepwater, while Bryn Shander is towards the top left.

You can freely pick a location to get transported to on that map, as long as it is somewhat along the coast, as those are the towns Shiver has likely been to during her life before the mission, since frost giants use a lot of boats for whaling, raiding, and travel. If you are unsure where to go, feel free to have Shiver discuss things with Sìle. This game is intended to involve a lot of traveling, as well as some mystery/investigation (at least in the beginning) to find out what happened to Shiver and what is currently going on in the Savage Frontier. Followed by Shiver deciding what she wants to do about it.


As for the game, I'm open to it. What's it about?

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## MikelaC1

Can Shiver cover the distance to a dwarf in the navigation room and still get an attack in?

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## Ridai

Yes, she can.

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## MikelaC1

I really hope she makes that grapple check because the visual on it is hilarious

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## Ridai

Merry Christmas to you and yours! Here's hoping for a few nice, quiet days.

No snow here, just potentially frozen over streets, but we at least reached the wintery Icewind Dale (as hostile as it may be) ingame. It's something.

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## MikelaC1

Drufi? You are saying it like I should know it, but for the life of me, I couldnt find it in the OOC.
Also do I know this Artus Cimber?

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## Ridai

She has come up a few times now, most recently in the dream Shiver kept having on the way to Bryn Shander. If Shiver is the best woman of her clan, Drufi is the second-best (though not a close second) and was perhaps her closest confidant. As she lacks Shiver's powers, she does not have as much empathy for the small folk as of yet, but does not feel the need to be cruel to them or needlessly bring harm to them. Frequently liked to spar with Shiver, since the other women didn't provide much challenge, but never once won against Shiver. Given how patriarchial/latently misogynistic the clan is and how much Drufi thus stands out, but not having Shiver's strength or presence, Drufi is often under a lot of pressure. Her good leanings due to Shiver and her association with Shiver do not help matters.

Up to you how Shiver feels about Drufi.


As for Artus Cimber, this does not ring any bells for Shiver.

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## MikelaC1

WOOT, what a score, even without ranks and not even factoring in Sile yet.

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## MikelaC1

Oh and by the way, today, you and I are enemies as Canada takes on Germany at the World Junior Hockey Championship. Fresh off hammering the whipping boy Austrians. A doubleheader of lederhosen pounding.

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## MikelaC1

I need to ask how the CON check works. Do I have to roll a D20 under my CON, in which case, why would I apply a bonus to it?

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## Ridai

It's just a normal Constitution check with the modifier against a DC.

And of course I forgot to include the DC in the IC. Yaaaay... DC for Firebrandy is 15. Failing is not an instant out, just getting more drunk, unless the roll is really bad.

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## MikelaC1

[roll[1d20+7[/roll] CON check

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## MikelaC1

(1d20+7)[*24*] CON check

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## MikelaC1

(1d20+7)[*20*] CON check

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## MikelaC1

[roll[1d20+7[/roll] CON check

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## MikelaC1

(1d20+7)[*24*] CON check

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## MikelaC1

(1d20+7)[*22*] CON check

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## MikelaC1

Are you sure level8? She was only at level6 right now? Or is this part of the necklace?

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## Ridai

Yup, level 8. The level up to level 7 happened when Shiver arrived at Bryn Shander.

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## MikelaC1

Shiver sheet updated

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## MikelaC1

If they were in range to throw rocks at them, are they in range for Shiver to return fire?

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## Ridai

Yes, but with a -2 range penalty because of Shiver's current range increment of 60ft.

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## MikelaC1

I got that name too close to Shiver's sister in other incarnations of this PC, it was not meant to be so. It was actually just supposed to be a random male "tool" who was just too stupid to take healing and got killed as a result. As an example of not knowing when to stop and rest. Shiver does not have her sister in this game, that would be too much to deal with, Debbie still watches the games, but hasnt been inspired to join in for some time.

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## Ridai

Ah, I see. I edited the last IC post accordingly.

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## Ridai

Since it sounds like you just generally want to look around, give me a Gather Information check. Sìle is assisting, so Shiver can use her 11 ranks in the skill, and Shiver also gains a +6 bonus on her check. Total modifier thus is +24 due to Shiver's massive charisma.

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## MikelaC1

(1d20+24)[*36*] gather information

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## MikelaC1

Basically trying to goad her into facing me one on one, but as usual, the roller chooses to bone my Intimidate, on the first part of the plan

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## Ridai

Just a single attack and damage roll, since Shiver needs to move into melee, but with a 2d8 weapon die and x1.5 Strength bonus because dual-handed.

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## MikelaC1

(1d20+15)[*35*] attack
(2d8+12)[*24*] damage

improvised bulldozer

EDIT: A critical!. Thats going to bring the pain to the yuan and anyone else who was trying to get in the way

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## Ridai

I would like to mention that after a bit more than two years, I got the plague, so if anything during the next week or so seems incoherent or unclear, please do bring it up.

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## MikelaC1

Borrowing our thread for one last test

Zikram's Grove

EDIT: worked for me, if you could make sure you see it as well.

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## Ridai

Yeah I see it.

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## MikelaC1

Im in a pickle now, I never expected that to work and there is simply no way I am going to kill wolves, but I dont know how to fully turn them. Wolves are too cool. My dog is part wolf (one grandparent) and even Tishtina in The Chosen befriended the wolves summoned by the vampires.

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## Ridai

Entirely up to you how you want to handle this. Shiver and Drufi are seen as superior, and when in doubt, Drufi knows a thing or two about handling winter wolves.

Seem to have recovered from the plague, feeling the itch to put together something thief-y/ninja-y as a hobby thing, as bad an idea as that is in any D&D ever.

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## MikelaC1

I am already running one game and participating in two, so Im not sure I would have the time to devote to a game for your rogue/ninja. However, it would be possible to introduce that PC into the Good Strikes Back game, they did have a rogue/ninja type who quit the game in a huff (when his character could not be impervious to being attacked in retaliation) but its an 18th level game and Im not sure if that is the sort of level you want. But that option is always open to you.

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## Ridai

It's more a hobby thing than a character meant for actual play at this venture, to be honest. 18th level would probably just boil down to high level magic, and with stuff like See Invisibility, Foresight, True Seeing, blindsense/blindsight/scent/tremorsense and all the other hard counters on the table, while Hide in Plain Sight and Darkstalker are not allowed, stealth is basically impossible unless the DM is feeling generous. At 18th level, it's not worth playing anything stealth or illusion or enchantment, it's better to just kill stuff with as little need to be adjudicated by the DM as possible.

To be honest, I saw the laundry lists of buffs your players were putting down and I just felt "this is awful, I don't want to engage with any of this".

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## MikelaC1

How grounded is the boat? I mean, did it ride right up onshore, meaning we cant move it ourselves or did it just get into shallow water and drop an anchor. I'm thinking the second, since we did have to wade into through the water. If it is the second, can we take up the anchor and let the boat drift a bit back and then toss rocks at the remaining giants as they try to make their way to us, perhaps killing some or making them slip and drown...also making it so they cant get at us in a whole wave. Giants always have a supply of rocks wherever they go, so there should be some onboard. 

On another note, what would this roguey-ninjay PC be up to. I dont run evil campaigns any more and he sounds like he would be skirting the line. I also  cant promise that there will be a game, but if the tank team obliterates Zikram and his minions without even breaking a sweat, Im pulling the plug on it.

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## Ridai

The boat is close to the shoreline/harbor and basically lodged in/on two ships made for humans it just rammed. The giant raiders would likely have to spend some time to hack up the two wrecks and push the boat back into a swimming state. Since Shiver knows her people, it probably went down like this:

They probably didn't wait for the fog or anything, but it was a nice bonus. They just barreled in, full tilt, got as close to the shoreline as possible, which so happened to have two boats in the way. Came to a halt, good enough, first warriors were probably already leaping towards the shore and just go go go, plunder and murder. If the boats had not been in the way, chances are they would have just rammed the ship into the harbor, and with how ridiculously large and sturdy frost giant dragonboats are, it probably would have crushed part of the stone and lodged itself in it, to later just be pushed back out.

Women and men of action, but usually not really of planning or patience.

edit: You can find some boulders on the ship. You also have a mage with you.


Also, really, don't worry about the thief character, this is not a veiled "hey please run a game for this one". It's basically brain exercise to get rid of that no energy mind fog caused by the plague, since stuff like solving the puzzles last week helped a bit. As dumb as it may sound, working through "would this be feasible and where are the pitfalls" of playing a level 18 character, where you have to assume basically anything is on the table at that point, is part of that. Sure, the results for me basically were "stealth too reliant on DM goodwill, some critical tools are banned, mages are better stealth characters than rogues/ninjas", and later "I could put together an actually controllable Frenzied Berserker, but any caster with Shapechange can become a good enough melee monster with 0 investment", but I had something to work on.

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## MikelaC1

Funny that you had Echo going to help Shiver and Slider helping Drufi because thats the way I wanted the wolves to bond. Of course, both of them could end up bonding to Shiver, but she wants Echo for sure.

80 points at least, with possibly more if the 19 connected, your wording made it sound like he was in rage mode which would further lower AC.

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## Ridai

I had a feeling about Echo and Slider.

And nah, no rage on frost giant 6 and 7. They power attacked. Someone being angry or trying to hit harder doesn't automatically constitute rage, especially since the average frost giant doesn't have access to rage. If someone activates rage or some other special ability, I will either call that out in the OOC part of the post or make it abundantly clear what happened in the IC part (like with the shama's ice armor).

Fortunately, you still have your friendly neighborhood Sìle.

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## MikelaC1

So, here is the OOC issue. I have no problems running Echo, she is my wolf, but it would not make sense for me to run Sile or Drufi, their independence is part of what drives this campaign. And I doubt very much you want the headache of running all the enemies, those two AND a whole bunch of hanger-on converts. But putting them out to pasture, right after converting them just seems wrong, so what do we do with them?

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## Ridai

You will only ever need to play Shiver. I have no issues with running Sìle and Drufi. Echo and Slider, as winter wolves, are comparatively very simple stat blocks, so running those is easy as well, and they have human-like intelligence. So no worries there.

In terms of what to do with the other giants, that depends on what you want to do with them IC, as there are pros and cons. Like Shiver, Drufi, and Sìle can pass as humans and as their small group, they are a fairly agile, flexible group. They can go quiet and they can go loud. Adding Echo and Slider still works. Draws some more attention, but rangers and druids are a thing. 

Taking her new clan would mean they will always have giants with them (they do not get the size-changing powers like Shiver, Drufi, and Sìle have, nor do they all automatically get converted into DMPCs, though their association with Shiver might carry other benefits), and spells like _veil_ are still far away for Sìle, especially as a primary divine caster. This makes Shiver's arrival very obvious and since the land is under attack by various giants, there is more dealing with needing to convince people these are good giants. The news might travel, but Shiver and friends travel _very fast_ and people won't always instantly recognize her or believe the hype. On the upside, narratively, Shiver has absolute proof of having a clan of good giants, her clan has a pretty damn high charisma average (all giants below storms except hills have a Cha of 11, the average storm giant has Cha 15, your clan's women have a _floor_ of Cha 16, and Kassun is a handsome, gentle kind of guy as well; Shiver and her followers are phenomenally charismatic and beautiful), and a force of seven frost giants (two of which are gestalt PCs) and their priestess-sorceress is able to deal with comparatively bigger problems and enemy forces. In fights, I would relegate the "lesser" clanmembers into the background, and allocate a part of the enemies to them as well. How well their fight goes depends on how well Shiver and her inner circle do in theirs.

Keeping things to Shiver, Drufi, and Sìle (and maybe the wolves) is closer to an adventuring party and a bit more flexible, but they might need to be careful how much they can take on if they encounter larger groups of giants. Taking her clan shifts things a bit more towards being a commander and leader of her kind, with more sprawling fights and wielding greater power.

Either way, I won't make your or my life difficult. You chose to recruit your new clan, and I want you to feel good about what you achieved, as this wasn't something that was planned or decided regardless of Shiver's actions. If you would prefer continuing the search with the core team, Shiver can tell them that she needs to be covert with her mission to get it done quickly, and in the meantime, they can help rebuild Port Llast, perhaps even recruit other frost giants to their cause, waiting for Shiver to call upon them at a later point (and I would have them appear and help where appropriate), staying in touch via Sìle's magic.

Lemme know what you want and I can accomodate. Solo games are flexible like that.

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## MikelaC1

I would rather play Echo, it would make her seem more like Slissht's wolf. If you could send her stats over.

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## Ridai

As of right now, Echo and Slider are normal winter wolves, as seen in the Monster Manual and the SRD, so they are relatively fragile compared to the rest of the group.

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## MikelaC1

Updated sheet, predictably took Power Attack as feat, and added link to Echo

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## Ridai

Some corrections for Shiver's sheet, which happen to be in your favor on average!
Shiver's strength should be 30 (34 with her +2 Str item and +2 morale from Elation). Started on 18, +2 from levels 4 and 8, +10 from Shiver's frost giantess classShiver's Charisma should be 24 (26 with her +2 Charisma item). Started on 20, +2 from levels 4 and 8, +2 from Shiver's frost giantess classThus, her sword attacks while Large should be +29/+29/+24 (+10 BAB, +12 Str, +3 morale, +2 luck, +1 Weapon Focus, +2 weapon, -1 size), doing 3d6+23 damage (+12 Str x 1.5, +2 weapon, +3 morale)

And for a bit of fun with putting things into perspective:
Shiver's natural strength is now sitting exactly between those of frost giants and fire giants (lifting capacity nonwithstanding because Shiver is not yet Huge size), while her boosted strength is only one point behind cloud giants.
Her natural constitution by now exceeds that of storm giants by 1 point.
Her natural charisma equals that of a marilith, and her boosted charisma equals that of a succubus. No point in comparing her to other giants because she has left them far behind a long time ago.


On an unrelated note, during my research to rebuild Sìle as a divine caster, I came across the spell _ice axe_ (Spell Compendium, Cleric 3rd level). Conjures a one-handed axe made out of ice for 1 round/CL, which acts like a normal weapon, only it does touch attacks, and deals 2d12 + 1/2 CL (max 10) cold damage, gaining no extra damage from Strength. Can't be disarmed or sundered, virtually weightless, if you get iterative attacks, you can use them. This spell can be persisted, though it ends if you ever let go of the axe. Obviously has a bad time against anything cold resistant or immune, and two-handed weapons with a ton of Strength will get a better base damage, but I find this spell hilarious. Instant gish weapon, doesn't even need proficiency with martial weapons, and there is nothing stopping you from creating two of them for dual-wielding, or two-handing it to get the better Power Attack conversion.  :Small Big Grin:

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## MikelaC1

Thanks for the updates, dont know how Shiver's #'s keep falling behind what they should be

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## MikelaC1

I think it would work best if I made "suggestions" to Echo but you roleplay the reaction of her except for combat situations where I do the rolls. 
Side note, I was about to accuse you of communicating with Debbie behind my back, because Echo jumping into my seat the minute I stand up is exactly like her in real. When I arrive home, she whines at the gate as I enter, then runs over and jumps onto the couch with a look that says "Im not doing nothing, what are you looking at?"

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## Ridai

I see my anecdotal knowledge of funny dog behavior is working in my favor.

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## MikelaC1

Two questions. Was Daciana's last name Solyana...and when I went on the old Nature of Prophecy thread, I was not allowed to see the final version of Daciana, is it available somewhere? Because of my medical retirement, I am thinking of taking on a project of combining all the Daystor knowledge into some sort of internet availability, either a website or a blog. I think website would be too expensive though.

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## Ridai

Her family name is Solaya. I tend to set my old character sheets to private, I changed it to public for her sheet.

Please note that the sheet does not show the status she had at the end of the game where she became a succubus and high priestess, married Ny'Tasha (and conceived their first child), and got her "true" name/title Eveningdawn revealed to her by Tishtina, as that was lost when all sheet changes of a few months were lost on Myth-Weavers. I am fairly sure she ran into the 50 Charisma limit in the end, among other things.

One cheap option would be to make all stuff about Daystor into a Google Doc, or several Google Docs with links to each from a central one (like one about the gods and their high priest(esse)s, one for the various countries and/or landmasses, one for political powers and organizations, one for other important people, one for Daystor's history etc. Just spitballing here).

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## Ridai

The fire giants with their -1 initiative rolled a whoooole 3 total, so Shiver and gang are very much going first.

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## MikelaC1

As an aside, here is my Daystor World thread where you can put down any ideas about the world building issue I spoke to you about a couple of days ago.

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## MikelaC1

Slissht cackles, if those giants are equal to standard MM fire giants, she just took out one all on her own, and even she didnt, hes teetering on the edge.

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## MikelaC1

My apologies, between running my game and getting my map and google docs up, I have neglected this game. Post coming

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## Ridai

I assumed those were keeping you busy, no worries.

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## MikelaC1

Its a real problem in B.C.

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## MikelaC1

Im at a loss as to how to proceed here, am I supposed to initiate a fight against a lone giant, when I cant even prove that he actually did kill the villagers, its only circumstantial?

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## MikelaC1

Question: I know that when Shiver was at her height of power, she was stronger than Drufi but right now, when both go to full frost giant size, has she caught up yet in STR or not quite.

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## Ridai

Slissht is at 34 Str right now with all the buffs and items she has. Drufi lacks a strength item, and started with lower strength than Slissht (few frost giants get PC ability scores, let alone a starting 18), so she is at 28.

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## Ridai

If it's alright with you, I'll accelerate things to Daggerford and meeting Morwen.

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## MikelaC1

Thats fine

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## MikelaC1

I know that Marwen was set up to be a friend and an ally but Slissht doesnt remember that and I am trying to RP the suspicion she would have about someone she doesnt really know being all in on this plan

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## Ridai

You can react to Morwen however you want. Heck, Shiver can just say no here, the game will continue regardless, just without Morwen's involvement. Things might go differently, but saying no to Morwen isn't the "bad ending path" or anything.

Past Shiver did certain things, but your current Shiver doesn't need to do or feel the same. That's part of the game.

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## MikelaC1

In my IC post, I meant to say she goes to kiss, not kill, the Duchess, but did not see the wrong word entered....but then it seems that killing her was the right action anyway. At least she has a witness that she was a succubus. Now the question is what thing she put into her.

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## Ridai

Honestly, there weren't really any bad choices here. Killing Pencheska was the least likely choice, but it is one I accounted for.

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## Ridai

Going directly to the hill giants?

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## MikelaC1

That would be the plan

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## Ridai

As usual, for ability score increases on every 4th level, increase Cha by 1 and one other ability score by 1.

Because of Sìle's level ups and the item she found, she is able to provide better buffs!
- She now cast Superior Resistance on Shiver and Drufi, granting them a +6 resistance bonus to saves
- She casts Heroes' Feast every morning. Taking the other buffs into account, the net gain for Shiver is +1 morale to Will saves, immunity to poison, immunity to fear, and starting each day with 1d8+8 THP
- Shiver and Drufi gain Energy Immunity (fire)
- Magic Vestment improves, so she now has a +4 armor bonus to AC instead of +2
- Shiver now gains Greater Magical Weapon as well, so she can now treat her weapon as a +4 weapon
- Positive Energy Aura improves, so Shiver recovers 5 HP per round when she is within 10ft of Sìle

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## MikelaC1

Questions: In the Shiver build stub, it shows 12th level as gaining a straight up +2 to CHA, and then at 12th level, she gets the +1 to CHA and +1 to any other stat. Are those two in bonus, giving her +3 to CHA or not. 
Second, my next feat, from 11th level, there are 3 ideas I am mulling
1) (the most short term optimal) Improved Critical (that would probably mean taking Force of Personality next level since not building anything)
2) (the fancy one) Improved Unarmed Strike for both slugging people in battle and eventually taking Stunning Fist (in which case the +1 should be WIS)
3) (the long range, really fancy one) Combat Expertise => Dodge (maybe her Uncanny D qualifies) => Mobility =>Spring Attack => Whirlwind Attack
(if her uncanny dodge can take the place of dodge, she can have that put together by 17th level and be a whirling dervish in battle)

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## Ridai

The +2 is a bonus from your class, the +1 Cha/+1 other is the (modified) bonus from reaching character level 4/8/12/16/etc. So yes, Shiver gets +3 Cha and +1 to something else.


Of the ideas, Improved Critical is the fairly useful if bland option on a greatsword (+10% chance to crit is +10% chance to crit). Having Keen on the weapon is usually more cost efficient, but that is also a problem I created for myself because my god, I am not sure how to best handle loot/wealth and I am pretty sure I value items way differently from you, which makes trying to guess what you might want for Shiver weird. I am planning a "wealth catch-up" very soon for Shiver.

For the Whirlwind Attack chain, Shiver doesn't qualify for any of the feats at level 11 since she lacks the Int and the Dex at that level. However, my question would be which of these feats you actually want. Combat Expertise can help, but attack bonuses in 3.5 are very volatile. Dodge and Mobility are garbage. Spring Attack seems like of dubious use to Shiver because she isn't very fast, so the attack and dance out of range would not really work out. Whirlwind Attack seems like the prize here. And honestly, if you want that, I would just let you take the feat without the prerequisites. Shiver and gang will often fight superior numbers (I'm not really counting Echo and Slider in this, as they don't have the firepower of the main three, and more harass the enemy), and if you want to spend a full-round action to attack everything currently in reach, sure, go for it. The feat is situational enough for Shiver that it really doesn't need the ludicrous prerequisites.

Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist kind of fall victim to what the main enemy type in this game is, namely giants. IUS gives you a funny (punching people in the face, kicking them in the nuts), but crappy weapon doing a fraction of what Shiver does with her greatsword (damage die is tiny, you don't get x1.5 Str or the enhanced Power Attack or Sìle's Greater Magic Weapon, she can't cast Greater Magic Fang, that's a druid spell). Stunning Fist is a Fortitude save and scales off of Wis. Giants have tons of HP, and they have ridiculous Fortitude saves. Your DC would be 17, while the average hill giant has +12 Fort. 20% chance of stun, and you only get three tries per day. 10% chance to stun a frost/fire giant. Need a natural 1 for anyone above or any of the mentioned lower giants with class levels.

An alternative to Stunning Fist would be to take IUS, then on level 13 take Snap Kick from Tome of Battle, as that allows you to make a full attack with your sword as usual, albeit with a -2 penalty to all attacks, followed by an additional unarmed attack at full BAB, doing the unarmed damage die + 1/2 Strength bonus. While that doesn't get you the mental image of Stunning Fist, it would at least emulate punching someone in the middle of a sword fight.

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## MikelaC1

If Shiver can take Whirlwind Attack without all the other stuff, I might look to take it next time I gain a feat. If I have to have Combat Expertise to get it, then I would spend my other stat +1 on INT to qualify for it. 
In terms of what she wants for wealth, you know that I personally value stat buffing and AC buffing items the most. Shiver's ultimate goal is to get a Vorpal Blade, but the +5 cost on it makes for a very expensive weapon. If Sile can keen Shiver, she doesnt need to get it in on her weapon or as a feat, there seems to be a lot of moving parts here. The vorpal would go really well with Whrilwind, otherwise whirlwind only gives one attack to each opponent and with a majority of opponents being high hit point giants, its not so good at all.

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## Ridai

You can take Whirlwind Attack without prereqs.

I'll look into stat boost items. The party having a potent buffer means Sìle overrides many of the lower bonus defensive items with better buffs (like how Shiver now has +6 to saves, which is normally an epic item). But we'll get Shiver back on WBL soon. Shiver wanting a Vorpal weapon is also on my radar.

As for Sìle being able to put Keen on Shiver's weapon, she can indeed by switching out a spell she knows on her arcane side of things. It has been added to her persisted spells for Shiver and Drufi.

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## MikelaC1

All of Shiver's numbers are even, so pumping any of them doesnt actually build power for the moment. She puts the point in STR as long range build. She also ends up taking Force of Personality, the Whirlwind is something to keep on the shelf for now

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## Ridai

May as well pencil Whirlwind Attack in for level 13.

Also I am not sure what happened with your Charisma. It should be at 27 now, with 29 temporary because of Shiver's +2 Cha item.

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## MikelaC1

Dont know if you are still subscribed to the Daystor thread but the map got cleaned up and a whole bunch of google docs about various items added.

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## MikelaC1

Does claiming imply slavery or it is more akin to marriage?

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## Ridai

Depends entirely on the two frost giants in question. The only things that remain true are that the claim remains until the claimer dies, and that the claimer is generally seen as the superior of the relationship by other frost giants. It is very much rooted in the "winner reaps the rewards" mentality of frost giants.

On the evil side, like with Storvald and his lackeys (and many other evil frost giants), it very much means slavery.

Neutrally, it can mean a retainer relationship, like a knight to a king, or a favored courtesan, or the frost giant equivalent of a political or arranged marriage, either one jarl claiming another and fusing the clans, or a frost giant claiming a mate to produce strong offspring.

On the good side of things, it can be to protect the claimed giant, either by helping them save face due to now "serving" a prestigious frost giant and thus restoring some degree of honor back to them, or to protect the claimed one from being claimed by more nefarious giants. Either way, the claimer may then simply leave the claimed one be, not further imposing upon them. It can also be a sign of devotion, like an elevated form of the retainer relationship mentioned above but being claimed voluntarily (well, you are still expected to at least make it seem like you didn't want to lose your honor, like the women who dueled Shiver but didn't try all that hard to win), it can be a sort of bloodbond between best friends, or even akin to marriage.


In regards to Drufi, there are several options here. Either she basically declines claiming Drufi and she is claimed by someone else, be it, say, Jarl Vulkara or one of the women of Shiver's clan, basically handing Drufi over to them (which might mean Drufi is no longer directly part of Shiver's clan). Shiver could also claim Drufi, but decline marrying her, instead basically allowing her to have a wife or courtesans, possibly leading to integrating another clan into her own if Drufi is married to a jarl. Or Shiver claims and marries Drufi, who wouldn't exactly be opposed to the best of all frost giantesses wanting her this much. None of this needs to be decided now, that can also (in-setting, not ingame) happen after the game is over.

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## MikelaC1

Slissht is now leveled up but now I have a problem. 
Obviously, Slissht wants the hill giants to become self-sufficient and damn it, take some BATHS. But thats hardy what this game is all about and Im not into roleplaying the setting up of a society. The societies Shiver left behind with changes made already had the basics intact with just a few changes needed, but hill giants have nothing to build on. If she walks away now, by a weeks time the snow hussy will have been forgotten and they will lapse back into their old ways.

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## Ridai

Talking with the hill giants for a bit, you'll basically find out that Guh made the men go out and get all the food they could possible get their hands on. Her plan was that because the Ordning was shattered, she would impress the gods by becoming the biggest hill giant ever. She wanted to achieve that by eating, because eating more = becoming bigger. She also banished all women because she wanted all men for herself I guess. Without Guh being her gigantic self and with her stupid plan having completely failed, the hill giants are no longer united and will mostly just return to how they were before, especially if their women eventually come back. Meaning they will mostly keep to the hills away from civilization, hunt to eat, and go about their dumb hobbies. One or two of them might cause trouble somewhere, but that is orders of magnitude below the frenzied food gathering they were on before.

Given Shiver is at the moment the "divinely" appointed chieftain and also having killed the biggest and baddest hill giant, she can just give them some sort of order rendering basically keeping them away from hamlets and villages and such for the next few weeks, which should be enough time to deal with the actual plot (since travel time is now measured in low single-digit days at most, not weeks), and then have an NPC deal with the aftermath. What I can say is that the tale of Chieftain Shiver will last a fair while even if left unattended.

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## MikelaC1

Im a little confused about Sile's status, do we share treasure with her or not? 
And is that conch and rocking horse perhaps something that can boost her ethereal horse spells?

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## Ridai

Sìle generally doesn't want or accept treasure.

There is some residual magic around the conch, but nothing else.

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## MikelaC1

Not sure why Shivers armbands were not updated before, but I have done so now. So, she is at base26, boost32 and 312 HP (13x12 dice, 13X11 con, 13 imp tough). The gold gets divvyed up as well, she now has slightly over 17K

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## MikelaC1

As well, I know your answer will probably be hard pass, but Im applying (well, Im in for sure as OP) for a game as a paladin/knight in shining armor taking on the old Fearsome Foursome. 30th level gestalt isnt usually your thing though

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## Ridai

Hard pass, plus it is played on Discord and I don't particularly like Discord as a PbP medium. It is made for chatting, it is horrendous to find anything older than the last few messages, especially if players aren't disciplined and keep cramming in OOC chatter in the IC channel.

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## MikelaC1

Sheet is leveled up, not a bad level with the STR and CON bonus, her HP are really getting up there. Nice touch on the vorpal weapon too, cant wait to sever a neck or two. Going to need the dice bot to be generous with a natural 20 to start the process, shes got a pretty good chance to confirm after that. Since her frost giant progression has maxed out, have to decide what other class to add there, but adding 1st level abilities to a 14th level PC is kind of meh.

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## Ridai

If you end up not liking any option, we can also more or less continue the giant class, as a sort of "greater frost giant" kind of deal. Don't really know how many levels are still in this game, so I'd probably just wing whatever bonuses are gained each level when it comes to a level up.

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## MikelaC1

I guess I will continue on as greater frost giant.
In regards to this scene, I am a bit confused, what I think you are describing is that there is a big flat area where the giants and yaks are, and off to the side of this area is the barred tunnel into the mountain. I assume as well that we could jump into this area and start laying waste to giants (and I suppose the dumb yaks if they make trouble) and then after that see about pulling open the gate. Do I have the right of it?

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## Ridai

On the plateau is a village of yakfolk, no fire giants in sight, with a barred tunnel leading further into the mountain. How you want to handle this situation and interact with the yakfolk (if at all) is up to you.

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## MikelaC1

Slissht has also taken, in private, to calling Drufi by the nickname of Shhalt, which is the frost giant word for Shake.

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## MikelaC1

Damn it, got excited until I checked the rules and its a natural 20, not just a crit shot.

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## Ridai

It is that time of the year. Merry Christmas!

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## MikelaC1

Merry Christmas right back at you....opps, the forum's religious filter is giving us the evil eye

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## Ridai

If it's any help, given how things go over here, I hardly associate Christmas with religion, it's by now just a standard cultural thing, with some people opting to go to church on Christmas Eve.

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## MikelaC1

I was comparing the hell hounds with the winter wolves on the SRD and its no contest. The wolves have more HD, better attacks and then with Sile making them invulnerable to hell hound fire breath, the hell puppies are boned.

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## Ridai

Yeah the difference is pretty stark in 3.5. The hell hounds are basically just pets in this situation, especially with Echo and Slider also having plenty additional HD and buffs.

Shiver (and by extension, you as the player) spent a long time having to be conscious about being weaker than she is supposed to be, having to pick her fights and such, so now that she is full powered, allowed Sìle to become a priestess, took in Echo and Slider, and recruited Drufi (and allowed her to achieve her full potential), I want you to feel just what a powerful force she has become, where most standard giants going toe-to-toe with her or her wife is not even remotely a fair fight. She's a major power in what is happening in the setting now, and is able to change a lot of things, especially since all giants are kind of wrapped up in their own schemes, and the small folk is mostly in the defensive or taking a wait-and-see approach.

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## MikelaC1

Can we use the duke's head as our own personal golf ball?  :Small Big Grin:

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## Ridai

You know, there is a case to be made that the current sequence of events could be counted as anti-climactic, with no big fight between the heroine and the evil fire giant duke, after pursuing him through the dungeon and fighting off his minions and all that. But I knew what I signed myself up for when I granted that Vorpal blade you wished for quite a while ago.

Also, that natural 20 came at a very, very funny moment.  :Small Big Grin: 

You are free to do as you please with the spoils of your victory.

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## MikelaC1

I disagree. Yes, a final huge battle with the fire giant would have had one type of climax but Shiver winding up with the huge one hit kill shot and no other marks on the giant is its own type of climax and its own type of proof of her dominance to the lesser fire giants out there. Her fighting the duke down to the point where she only had 10 or so hit points left would leave someone with the impression that the battle could have gone either way and the remaining giants would be more than willing to finish her off...this way, none of them dare speak against her

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## Ridai

In-universe it's great, it was more about whether I made the game more or less fun by essentially letting a natural 20 skip a whole dungeon. I went with it because it seemed narratively appropriate, but I have no idea if this is bad DMing, as the group I ran this dungeon for discovered a fast way to do it (different objective) and they ended up miffed I let them get away with it (despite being scared out of their minds by all giants in the game, for some reason). Hard to guess what players actually want out of a game.

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## MikelaC1

Bad DMing would be to say that something you actually gave to a player just happens to not work this time, "just because". Nat 20 plus a confirmation roll to boot is not exactly a common thing, now a second edition vorpal weapon which decapitates on 17-20 without confirming is another story.

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## Ridai

Yeah, I generally don't want to say no to something that should work (especially since I gave you the vorpal weapon), same with gotcha moments players might stumble into because they couldn't know this, but their characters would have. Doesn't feel right. I was told I should let things happen after not saying no anway and make it look like it was always the plan, but going "yeah so you one-shot the duke, but his wife is the true power and sics the dungeon on you" feels kinda meh when in-universe, this frost giantess (perceived as weaker by fire giants) just waltzes in and one-shots the biggest, baddest dude in the dungeon, with two hacked apart fire giant corpses on the scene as well.

Long story short, you got a new golf ball and have the opportunity to tell the fire giants what's what. There is also still the issue of them rebuilding a gigantic adamantine dragon-killing death machine, on top of their usual evil ways of trampling small folk and rampant slavery.

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## MikelaC1

And now its time for me to say Happy New Year to you.

On an unrelated note, I dont understand why every high level, crunch-centric game that I enter on this board collapses within days. Your games are great and I like them a lot, but one they are not crunch-centric, its not a criticism but just a comment. I worked on Xenobia for quite some time, designing her sword, her armor and her shield, along with her pegasus and all her assorted stuff and the game seems to have blown up and we didnt even get past the first battle. And this was a DM who had the gall to say that there were too many people who applied to the game but if someone wanted to run the game as well, he would email them all the setting info and they could run the game as well. That must be the same info that petered out completely on battle #1. I dont have to be 30th gestalt level with all the knight and hellreaver stuff, although it would have to be in epic levels given how much that sword, armor and shield are worth, but theres no way I can even think of playing a lower level paladin, that game probably wouldnt survive either If you dont intend to run a game to completion, why do you volunteer to run it. This game grew out of the Fearsome Foursome challenge that Belgarath initiated and I knew he couldnt be counted on to run any game past page2 or 3, but if the guy couldnt handle it dont poke your nose in. Now not only do I have yet another failed game on my hands, the Xenobia sheet is hopelessly fouled up, not that it matters, given that any sort of high level game wont blow a tire within seconds. I have to credit 3SecondCultist for keeping Knocking on Heavens Door running.
Just wanted to get that off my chest
/end rant

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## Ridai

Happy new year to you as well. Been a bit under the weather as of late, but hopefully that'll pass soon. Here's hoping this new year of the Screaming 2020s won't be as bad as the previous ones.

As for the high level games, yeah, that is part of why I hesitate to join them. Usually don't know the people involved and/or making the character mostly feels like work and not something I enjoy. And since epic character creation takes a damn long time, if I don't enjoy it, that is no good basis for joining a game. Plus being bored of most official 3.5 classes by now. Recently got to experience what high level character creation can feel like if I can just pick what I actually want (surprise, this means homebrew) and don't have to worry about rocket tag, coupled with a known quantity DM. I don't think I'll feel too bad if I don't get picked or life gets in the way of the game, as it has been a nice change of pace to not hate the process of low-epic character creation, so there is no "if I don't get picked/if the game falls apart, all this BS I put myself through was for nothing".


As for my games, yeah, definitely not mechanics-driven. That usually doesn't go well for solo characters, especially non-caster solo characters who just don't get many options outside of "stand in place and swing" (D&D and Pathfinder, as party-based-combat-focused systems are just... kind of crappy as solo systems). I thought about making various changes, like giving Shiver multiple initiative passes per round to improve her action economy and make it so that if she gets hit by a save-or-lose, only one of the initiative passes gets disabled instead of taking her down (so basically give her the edges of later edition/different system boss monsters who are supposed to fight solo against whole parties), but that usually just seems to weird people out. So adding Sìle and Drufi it was, as well as frequently ignoring basic parts of the rules like "you can't move and full attack", or what relative distances and positions _actually_ are. Just made the game flow more nicely, and meant less headaches.

Really though, I know I'm a mediocre DM at best, partially because I'm not a person who inherently enjoys DMing or really wants to DM. Was hard to miss for me over the past couple of years. Ran various live games in various formats, and ironically the only ones I enjoyed were running premade dungeon crawls in a virtual tabletop, since I could actually focus on playing the game as well with some enjoyment, instead of basically working while other people are playing.

I'm actually surprised this here game has managed to survive for over a year now. There's been a lot (a lot) of struggling and not knowing how to best handle or deal with things in the background, and the projected flow of the story has been changing perpetually based on how Shiver dealt with situations and interacted with people. Never managed to figure out how to plan games or storylines for games, or get a sense for what my players would enjoy. I'll do my best to get this game across the finish line, but I'm not sure about running games after this one. Maybe if there's a killer idea/premise, but for the most part, running games should probably be left to actual DMs who enjoy being DMs, rather than tolerating being DMs so there can be a game and they can play with friends.

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