# Forum > Discussion > Media Discussions >  Death Battle Season 9: We're Never Getting Galactus vs. Unicron, Are We?

## Iamyourking

Remaking the thread since the last one has been inactive since 12/22

Death Battle returns 3/28, with Harley Quinn vs. Jinx. As a reminder; the other confirmed characters are Boba Fett, Vegeta, Tanjiro from Demon Slayer, Tetsuo, and Scarlet Witch-who are expected to fight The Predator, Thor, Jonathan Joestar, Magneto, and Zatanna respectively.

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## Rynjin

Damn, I wonder how they're gonna have Vegeta job this season? Man can't escape it in his own series, and it carries over to crossovers too.

Jonathan vs Tanjiro is pretty interestingly actually. I didn't understand the format of your post at first but when I read Tanjiro he was my first thought as fitting opponent, so that bodes well.

Tetsuo vs Magneto...eh, seems like a weird matchup. That's a stomp for Magneto, and there's really no thematic similarities in either character or powerset. Tetsuo is telekinetic, not a Master of Magnet.

Boba vs Predator is...something I'm surprised they didn't do already. Very basic matchup, not very ripe for discussion IMO. The kind of fight nobody is really gonna be salty no matter who wins.

Scarlet Witch vs Zatanna is one I'm interested in, because I'm genuinely not sure who has more bull**** feats. All of SW's biggest stuff is kind of one-off things and then she sometimes loses her powerup, and I'm pretty sure Zatanna can literally do ANYTHING as long as she can formulate the concept and turn it into a phrase she can say backward. Can't she just say Llikhctiwtelracs! and win?

Aaand the season premiere...don't care. Don't like League and Harley Quinn isn't exactly an interesting combatant in terms of pure powerset and moves. They don't have the animation budget/talent to make a Harley Quinn fight look good.

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## Rater202

I'm gonna say that, assuming Jinx is a fair matchup for Harley, that Harley wins do to having decades of appearances to draw from for feats. I legitimately don't know much about league so I don't know what Jinx is meant to be so...

Vegeta vs Thor seems to be transparently an attempt to give Vegeta a win. Thor as All-Father or Rune King could win, but Vegeta as of Super is a Galaxy Buster at the least and, in the manga, is training to become a God of Destruction. He's an order of magnitude above Thor's normal power level. At least.

Hell, Vegeta has a technique that could separate Thor into Thor and Donald Blake.

...I'm not sure how exactly that would help in this fight, but he could do that.

With Scarlet Witch... I don't know Zantana's upper limits so I'm not gonna declare a winner, but if they do their due diligence and research up to the current point in the comics(an issue they've had repeatedly with comic characters) then Wanda has good odds..

Between Trial of Magneto(which invovled Wanda fusing in body and soul with a biologically optimized clone of herself in her physical prime and an elderly version of herself from a potential future who had fully mastered her magic and powers and done the work to overcome her various psychological issues for good) and Darkhold(which had Wanda absorb the orignal manuscript for the Darkhold, which vastly improved her powers and knolwedge of Chaos Magic and then chase that by defeating Cthon for good by turning his various attempts to possess her against him and essentially _eat him_ gaining all of his power and usurping his role as the Elder God of Magic and Chaos) she's probably the most powerful she's ever been.

And... I don't _think_ the predator as any weapons that could damage armor made of Mandalorian iron.

I don't really have a dog in any of the other fights.

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## hungrycrow

> Damn, I wonder how they're gonna have Vegeta job this season? Man can't escape it in his own series, and it carries over to crossovers too.


Well you see, Thor as a character represents the limitless power of worthiness, whereas Vegeta represents jobbing. Thus on the basis of themes Vegeta will always lose.

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## Rater202

> Well you see, Thor as a character represents the limitless power of worthiness, whereas Vegeta represents jobbing. Thus on the basis of themes Vegeta will always lose.


An argument that does sound like one that Deathbattle would make if they couldn't think of a reason by feats of who would win...

...Up to and including it being an objectively incorrect statement based on memes rather than fact.

Vegeta *beat* Goku in the saiyan saga. He only lost to Krillin, Gohan, and Yajirobi(with Krillin having access to the previously formed Spirit Bomb) because he ran out of energy and thus coudn't get out of the way fast enough when Great Ape Gohan fell on him. They won by a combination f tactics, atrittion, and dumb luck after a long and hard fought battle.

Vegeta beat Cui and Dodoria with minimal effort, they were both effectively just Vegeta murdering them. He lost to Zarbon, but then came back and casually murdered him. He sniped and murdered Guldo... He lost to Recoom, but after recovering he murdered Jeice and did the majority of the work in defeating Ginyu.

He doesn't really properly Job, losing without really standing a chance or getting the opportunity to redeem his loss, until Frieza.

Next saga, he beats Android 19 so badly that an emotionless machine came to understand fear and was strong enough that Dr. Gero immediately ran off to wake up 17 and 18. He gets his ass kicked by 18, but after training completly and utterly wrecks Semi-perfect Cell, who is leagues beyond 18.

He loses to PErfect Cell... But that's less jobbing and more an exploration of Vegeta's character flaws, his pride got the best of him and he willingly entered into a situation where he'd lose.

(It's really _Trunks_ who jobbed there. He was explicitly more than strong enough to defeat Cell but couldn't land a hit once Cell stopped toying with him. Trunks was used a s amedium to show just how good a fighter Cell was.)

In Buu... Killed his opponent and got to be awesome, beat Goku(admittedly by fighting dirty, and Goku was at a fraction of his power) and honestly didn't really do any better or worse against Buu than anyone else. If Vegeta jobbed to Buu *everyone* jobbed to Buu.

Super: Goku had already jobbed to Beerus so narratively Vegeta's fight with Beerus is more to show Vegeta's character growth. He's scared ****less of Beerus due to his memories of seeing his father utterly humiliating himself to appease Beerus only for it to not be enough and Vegeta himself humiliates himself in the same manner... And then Beerus hits Bulma and Vegeta goes ape on him and does better than even Goku as a super Saiyan 3 did.

Rez F arc... Vegeta was depicted as being roughly equal to Goku for once and was whipping Frieza's ass. He lost and got killed(even if it was immediate undone and Goku kill stole) but like Cell that's more just his ego.

In the Tournament arc, Vegeta was MVP

Goku Black, Vegeta did not do any more or less well than Goku did.

Tounrmeent of Power... Other people jobbed, but not Vegeta. Even in the fight where he was taken out he put up a hell of a fight.

Broly: No better or worse than Goku.

Moro: both Goku and Vegeta jobbed against Moro, but after training on Yardrat Vegeta was the first person to do any real damage to Moro and came very close to killing him. While ultimately it as Goku who won't he day, Vegeta got a real good showing and was vital to the final battle regardless.

...Reserving Judgement for Granaolah arc, ince it's not done yet and seems kind of random in direction.

So really, Vegeta only has *one* example of jobbing where he didn't redeam himself soon after. Two if you count Perfect Cell, but narratively that didn't feel like jobbing and was mmeidatly followed by a much more clear cut example of jobbing so

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## Iamyourking

It looks like there're some people who think Vegeta will be fighting Black Adam or General Zod and Tetsuo will be fighting Mewtwo. It's also possible Raven will be returning to fight Scarlet Witch, I think if she hadn't already appeared her and Zatanna would be equally plausible. I don't think any of those are super likely, but they could still happen.

Personally, I hope Vegeta doesn't fight Thor because it doesn't really fit with the theme of the year. They've said this will be a season where they branch out and try new things; and the preview largely supports that. Of the six featured characters, three are from completely new franchises and one is a new character from a well-established franchise. They've used Vegeta and Fett before, but the Predator more than counts as something new. Thor, on the other hand, is not just a character from a well-established franchise but also one that they've already used twice.

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## Forum Explorer

> I'm gonna say that, assuming Jinx is a fair matchup for Harley, that Harley wins do to having decades of appearances to draw from for feats. I legitimately don't know much about league so I don't know what Jinx is meant to be so...


I mean, they could pull some absolute BS, and claim that because it the game Jinx can kill Aurelion Sol (a space dragon who fights by making and throwing stars at people), that she is thus at solar system busting levels. 

Honestly, I'm inclined to think Jinx _should_ win, considering she fights in a very high magic society with lots of crazy stuff, and what's more, she uses an actual minigun/missile launcher and other lethal weaponry while Harly Quinn typically uses much less crazy stuff, but yeah, I think the decades of lore will mean Harly Quinn likely has a FTL feat in there somewhere, and the ability to survive nukes.

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## Rater202

> I mean, they could pull some absolute BS, and claim that because it the game Jinx can kill Aurelion Sol (a space dragon who fights by making and throwing stars at people), that she is thus at solar system busting levels. 
> 
> Honestly, I'm inclined to think Jinx _should_ win, considering she fights in a very high magic society with lots of crazy stuff, and what's more, she uses an actual minigun/missile launcher and other lethal weaponry while Harly Quinn typically uses much less crazy stuff, but yeah, I think the decades of lore will mean Harly Quinn likely has a FTL feat in there somewhere, and the ability to survive nukes.


We know that she's immune to most organic and synthetic poisons, even in high doses, drugs.

Partly becuase of a chemical mutagen and partly because she regularly has unprotected sex with literally toxic people.

But unless she bleeds on Jinx I don't see how that's relevant. Other than being a generic Gothamite thats her only superhuman ability.

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## HolyDraconus

> We know that she's immune to most organic and synthetic poisons, even in high doses, drugs.
> 
> Partly becuase of a chemical mutagen and partly because she regularly has unprotected sex with literally toxic people.


I never read that she gained an immunity from having sex with people. Can you site that? I seen she gained resistance and immunity from other things, like Poison Ivy giving her booster shots, or Joker regularly testing various poisons on her and himself, bar the Joker Toxin, but not explicitly sex.

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## Rater202

> I never read that she gained an immunity from having sex with people. Can you site that? I seen she gained resistance and immunity from other things, like Poison Ivy giving her booster shots, or Joker regularly testing various poisons on her and himself, bar the Joker Toxin, but not explicitly sex.


I don't have ane exact issue off the top of my head, but there's one issue of _Harley Quinn_, her self-titled where Harley is drugged by Hugo Strange but the drugs prove less than effective. Harley cites regularly having sex with Poison Ivy and the Joker when explaining that drugs don't work on her.

Incidentally, apparently, Ivy vaccinating Harley against her own toxins was only in the DCAU and continuities based on it. Which I did not learn until I was double-checking to see if I could find an exact source for the comic I'm thinking of.

That _does not seem right._

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## McNum

Boba Fett? Huh. I wonder if they hoped he'd get new big feats from his series, because, well... I suppose he swings a mean gaffi stick.

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## Anteros

> I don't have ane exact issue off the top of my head, but there's one issue of _Harley Quinn_, her self-titled where Harley is drugged by Hugo Strange but the drugs prove less than effective. Harley cites regularly having sex with Poison Ivy and the Joker when explaining that drugs don't work on her.
> 
> Incidentally, apparently, Ivy vaccinating Harley against her own toxins was only in the DCAU and continuities based on it. Which I did not learn until I was double-checking to see if I could find an exact source for the comic I'm thinking of.
> 
> That _does not seem right._


Nah, I've definitely read a comic where Ivy gives Harley poison immunity.  I can't remember exactly where it's from though.  Maybe Injustice?  I'll think about it.

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## Anonymouswizard

> I don't have ane exact issue off the top of my head, but there's one issue of _Harley Quinn_, her self-titled where Harley is drugged by Hugo Strange but the drugs prove less than effective. Harley cites regularly having sex with Poison Ivy and the Joker when explaining that drugs don't work on her.


It doesn't mean that her immunity comes from intercourse itself, they could just be into that kind of stuff. My university put up posters about having safe and consensual sex on drugs, and it's not a practice I'd put beyond any of those three..

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## Rater202

> It doesn't mean that her immunity comes from intercourse itself, they could just be into that kind of stuff. My university put up posters about having safe and consensual sex on drugs, and it's not a practice I'd put beyond any of those three..


Yeah, but... Ivy and Joker are both literally toxic, as I alluded to

Ivy because of her powers(which include pheromones and a poisonous kiss)and Joker because of a combination of the acid bath that bleached his skin, his habitual recreation use of hard drugs, his habitual recreational use of Joker venom, occasional recreational use of scarecrow's fear toxin, and habbit of using himself and Harley as test subjects for various experimental drugs and toxins. The Joker

Harley's immunity is typically the result of exposure, so... That's exposure, right?

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## Anonymouswizard

> Yeah, but... Ivy and Joker are both literally toxic, as I alluded to
> 
> Ivy because of her powers(which include pheromones and a poisonous kiss)and Joker because of a combination of the acid bath that bleached his skin, his habitual recreation use of hard drugs, his habitual recreational use of Joker venom, occasional recreational use of scarecrow's fear toxin, and habbit of using himself and Harley as test subjects for various experimental drugs and toxins. The Joker
> 
> Harley's immunity is typically the result of exposure, so... That's exposure, right?


For Ivy, I believe only her lips are poisonous, not her... other lips. So kissing would certainly help build immunity, but I'm not convinced sexual acts would really do enough to be noteworthy.

As for the Joker, none of that sounds like it would make him toxic. On the other hand, it's just made more more convinced that he's into the kind of stuff that would potentially help.

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## Rater202

> As for the Joker, none of that sounds like it would make him toxic.


Tell that to the mosquito that died in agony after sucking his blood.

Look, Harley, herself cites long-term sexual relationships with people who are known to have toxic bodily fluids as one of he reasons why drugs don't work on her.

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## Anonymouswizard

> Tell that to the mosquito that died in agony after sucking his blood.


Blood is not semen. Well, unless you're Edward Cullen.

I'm not denying the fact that she's in a sexual relationship with them is a contributing factor, just that I don't think the sexual acts are anywhere near as important as everything else around them.

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## Lemmy

I'm pretty sure that she mentions the sexual intercourse not as a reason for her immunity, but as a cheeky way to say "I'm so resistant/immune to toxins, that I can have sex with poisonous people!".

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## Dragonus45

> Blood is not semen. Well, unless you're Edward Cullen.
> 
> I'm not denying the fact that she's in a sexual relationship with them is a contributing factor, just that I don't think the sexual acts are anywhere near as important as everything else around them.


Is there a reason your so heavily in denial of this even though it's cited directly from Harley in comic source here?

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## Anonymouswizard

> Is there a reason your so heavily in denial of this even though it's cited directly from Harley in comic source here?


Because I'm not actually certain Harley is a reliable source. Also because it just doesn't quite make sense to me as described.

Although admittedly the source of the immunity matters less than whether she has it, which comics readers are confirming.

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## Rater202

> Because I'm not actually certain Harley is a reliable source. Also because it just doesn't quite make sense to me as described.
> 
> Although admittedly the source of the immunity matters less than whether she has it, which comics readers are confirming.


Harley has a borderline superhuman level of resistance and tolerance for plant-based and synthetic toxins. To the point of being effectively immune.

This is partly result of the vaccine protecting her from the effects of long-term exposure to Ivy's toxins and pheromones but is mostly because Harley is regularly exposed to all manner of toxic substances and has developed an immunity to them over time.

Part of this exposure comes from the fact that both of her long-term sexual partners have toxic bodily fluids.

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## hungrycrow

> Also because it just doesn't quite make sense to me as described.


It's comic books, it doesn't have to make sense.

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## SKarious

Harley vs. Jinx: I'd give the win to Harley, too. She's agile enough to avoid gunfire in the comics, and Ivy's serums give her even more improved angility, strength, and limited healing.
Jinx's strenghts are ranged firepower (which Harley can avoid) and unpredictable gadgets (which Harley is probably aware of as she uses similar ones).
If Jinx's first sneak attack fails, and Harley gets close, it's game over.

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## Anteros

I dunno, Harley mostly gets by on plot armor.  If we ignore that, then she's an Olympic level gymnast, immune to some toxins....and has a hammer?  She can beat up regular people, but usually gets trounced against anyone skilled. She'd absolutely die against anyone with a firearm and proper aim.

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## Lemmy

> I dunno, Harley mostly gets by on plot armor.  If we ignore that, then she's an Olympic level gymnast, immune to some toxins....and has a hammer?  She can beat up regular people, but usually gets trounced against anyone skilled. She'd absolutely die against anyone with a firearm and proper aim.


Harley has the advantage of having decades of super-hero stories featuring her. 

I'm sure there's a panel somewhere of she tanking a nuclear explosion, deflecting a lightning bolt or dodging a laser blast (and in DB's eyes, if you can dodge a laser blast, you can move faster than light, instead of, you know, just faster than the person shooting at you).

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## Anonymouswizard

> Harley has the advantage of having decades of super-hero stories featuring her. 
> 
> I'm sure there's a panel somewhere of she tanking a nuclear explosion, deflecting a lightning bolt or dodging a laser blast (and in DB's eyes, if you can dodge a laser blast, you can move faster than light, instead of, you know, just faster than the person shooting at you).


Yeah, I'm sure they'll find some ridiculous one-off feat that only happened in a what if series or something and use that to justify her win.

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## Anteros

I don't doubt they'll do exactly that. I just don't think she actually deserves to win.

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## PoeticallyPsyco

If we assume Arcane canon counts here, I think Jinx has this.

*Spoiler*
Show

Before her surgery, Jinx was already at peak human level, easily hefting a gigantic minigun, shooting with incredible accuracy even as a kid, and moving pretty dang fast. After her shimmer surgery, she's clearly at least a little superhuman, flash-stepping and stuff.

Also, I think Jinx is smarter. I don't know Harley's intelligence feats, but Jinx cracks hextech in a day or two, and her explosives get complimented by Victor despite being made from literal scrap.

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## SKarious

Harley cleared an entire police station, including all the prisoners, 

*Spoiler: Arcane*
Show


Jinx lost to a skateboarding teenager.



And smarts may not be useful in this fight, as it will get chaotic very fast.
Jinx's madness only hinders her in fights, while Harley's motivates her and makes her unpredictable.

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## Rater202

IOn regard to intelligence, Harley is brilliant but lazy.

She could have *easily* earned her psychiatry degrees through her own efforts, she knows what she's talking about... But she still slept with her professors for easy grades whenever possible because that was less effort.

She was also smart enough to help the Joker escape Arkham an unknown plurality of times before being suspected despite being blatantly obsessed with the Joker during her time working at the Asylum, so... She's very good at covering her ass.

In regards to physical capabilities: She got into Gotham U in the first place on a gymnastics scholarship, being a dedicated lifelong gymnast. The vaccine that gives her her initial resistance to Ivy's toxins and pheromones supposedly also enhanced her strength and speed dramatically. She's not technically a metahuman but she's been enhanced.

It's unknown what her backstory was prior to attending Gotham University. However, she's lived on Gotham for most of her life and might even be a born and raised Gothamite. In which case... There have been several Lazarus Pits, both artificial and natural, tapped and untapped, in Gotham, as well as a massive wellspring of Dionosyium, the pure version of the chemical in the pits, and it said in some cases that the chemicals from the pits have tainted Gotham's municipal water supply.

Regularly drinking and bathing in water that's got trace amounts of Lazarus chemicals over an extended period of time is sometimes given as an explanation for why Gothamites have been shown being able to perform borderline superhuman feats of strength without overt enhancement, why people seem to so easily recover from wounds that should have left them permenantly crippled, and why Gotham has such a high rate of emotional instability and mental illness among its citizenry compared to the average so that may be a contributing factor to Harley's over all... Everything.

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## Lemmy

Harley is also really good at confusing and manipulating her opponents' emotions to get an edge in combat. So good in fact, that such a tactic worked well enough for her to capture Batman once and defeat opponents such as Grogg, Bane, Ivy and even Lobo.

And Jynx... Well... She's not exactly a paragon of emotional fortitude. Harley may not know her backstory, but would immediately be able to tell what kind of person Jynx is and what kind of thing makes her tick and/or lose focus.

Also, Harley survived multiple Task Force X mission... Many of which could make for a whole season of Arcane by themselves. So she almost certainly has a lot more experience than Jynx.

In terms of physical prowess, ignoring one-shot feat shenanigans, they are both probably still within human levels, but much stronger than their bodies should allow... I'd say they're around the level of a male olympic athlete in most aspects other than brute physical strength.

Well... If we take "at their peak" to its extreme, there were times (and alternate universes) where Harley is powerful enough to fight Superman... But I don't think DB will go _that_ far (although they pretty much did it with GL, so who really knows?).

Jynx advantage are... That she has a gun and is younger. Her firepower isn't particularly impressive by DC universe standards, though.

So... Yeah. Even ignoring any "Hey! Remember that one time when Harley moved FTL?" BS that DB will likely pull, I'd give it to Harley.

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## oogaboogagoblin

i dont really like db fights like harley quinn vs. jinx, what almost always happens is that they have a pretty blandly choreographed fight thats just punching with no effect, until someone pulls a bs feat out of their ass and ends the fight in one second (unless they both pull bs feats and then its just a question of who's bser)

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## Anonymouswizard

> i dont really like db fights like harley quinn vs. jinx, what almost always happens is that they have a pretty blandly choreographed fight thats just punching with no effect, until someone pulls a bs feat out of their ass and ends the fight in one second (unless they both pull bs feats and then its just a question of who's bser)


Eh, it's no worse than the fights with massive power discrepancies or two characters with a 'no killing' rule.

Like, you can't tell me that Edward Vs Aang  would have been worse if fought to immobilisation.

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## hungrycrow

> Eh, it's no worse than the fights with massive power discrepancies or two characters with a 'no killing' rule.
> 
> Like, you can't tell me that Edward Vs Aang  would have been worse if fought to immobilisation.


Now I'm imagining a scenario where Aang tries spiritbending and they somehow take the fight to the Gates of Truth.

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## Anonymouswizard

> Now I'm imagining a scenario where Aang tries spiritbending and they somehow take the fight to the Gates of Truth.


They return, Aang missing an arm* and knowing how to do Alchemy without circles.

Or he would, if he had any idea on how to do Alchemy in the first place.

* Somebody might be able to find a better price, but 'unable to hold his friends' sounds good to be

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## Prime32

> Now I'm imagining a scenario where Aang tries spiritbending and they somehow take the fight to the Gates of Truth.


I want one where Aang tries spiritbending Dai from _The Adventure of Dai_, and the spirits of the past Avatars and past Dragon Knights all start fighting each other.

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## Dragonus45

> I want one where Aang tries spiritbending Dai from _The Adventure of Dai_, and the spirits of the past Avatars and past Dragon Knights all start fighting each other.


I was thinking it would be funny if he tried to Spirit Bend Emiya and gets stabbed because Emiya's souls is pointy but frankly that idea is too good to pass up on. I really want to know who would win that.

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## Iamyourking

The information given in the previews is vastly weighted towards Jinx, mostly because Harley isn't really given any feats while Jinx is stated to be able to tank hits that can shake mountains. Of course, the actual fight is probably going to say "Jinx may be able to survive mountain-shaking hits, but Harley's been hit by Superman at some point-which is obviously far more impressive."

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## Dragonus45

My biggest concern in the issue of how they will try to translate game mechanics and lore bits that just do not match. Like Jinx can survive a Aurelian Sol ult and he is a star dragon who could vaporize a whole planet so she is tougher then x tons of Supernovas.

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## Lemmy

> My biggest concern in the issue of how they will try to translate game mechanics and lore bits that just do not match. Like Jinx can survive a Aurelian Sol ult and he is a star dragon who could vaporize a whole planet so she is tougher then x tons of Supernovas.


Of course, if they do that, any pretense of credibility will instantly disappear... Because by that logic, Phoenix Wright, a talented lawyer with zero combat experience can single-handedly beat Hulk, Dr.Strange and Dormammu, then immediately proceed to, again, single-handedly, beat Galactus.

In the defense of DB...  They *usually* don't just take things from game-mechanics and assume it's canon. I think even they recognize that game-mechanics are meant to balance the game, not to necessarily portray the character's abilities with any accuracy.

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## Dragonus45

> Of course, if they do that, any pretense of credibility will instantly disappear... Because by that logic, Phoenix Wright, a talented lawyer with zero combat experience can single-handedly beat Hulk, Dr.Strange and Dormammu, then immediately proceed to, again, single-handedly, beat Galactus.
> 
> In the defense of DB...  They *usually* don't just take things from game-mechanics and assume it's canon. I think even they recognize that game-mechanics are meant to balance the game, not to necessarily portray the character's abilities with any accuracy.


Thats a non cannon crossover thing though, this turns into a real problem of being direct from the source mainline gameplay. Also since when has taking a giant dump on their credibility ever stopped DB before.

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## Traab

> Of course, if they do that, any pretense of credibility will instantly disappear... Because by that logic, Phoenix Wright, a talented lawyer with zero combat experience can single-handedly beat Hulk, Dr.Strange and Dormammu, then immediately proceed to, again, single-handedly, beat Galactus.
> 
> In the defense of DB...  They *usually* don't just take things from game-mechanics and assume it's canon. I think even they recognize that game-mechanics are meant to balance the game, not to necessarily portray the character's abilities with any accuracy.


Are you kidding? They are totally taking harley from injustice 2 and saying since she can stand up to superman blah blah blah. Remember, this is the same death battle that declared goro must be supersonic in speed because someone else in mk was. Also, machamp is literally tossing people orbital all the time in pokemon according to them.

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## Rynjin

> Are you kidding? They are totally taking harley from injustice 2 and saying since she can stand up to superman blah blah blah. Remember, this is the same death battle that declared goro must be supersonic in speed because someone else in mk was. Also, machamp is literally tossing people orbital all the time in pokemon according to them.


Well, Machamp is a bit of a different story because there's really no difference between game mechanics and story in Pokemon. Hell, arguably Pokedex entries are the most canon source of "feats" for Pokemon, and they're usually even more absurd than mechanics.

I don't think Pokemon moves working exactly like they're presented is ever contradicted in a story scene either. Pokemon are just strong.

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## Forum Explorer

> Well, Machamp is a bit of a different story because there's really no difference between game mechanics and story in Pokemon. Hell, arguably Pokedex entries are the most canon source of "feats" for Pokemon, and they're usually even more absurd than mechanics.
> 
> I don't think Pokemon moves working exactly like they're presented is ever contradicted in a story scene either. Pokemon are just strong.


Agreed. There are like 4 sources of canon for Pokemon (Manga, anime, game, and Pokedex) so unless you exclusively look at what is seen (and not said) in just the anime, you get some frankly insane results. 

Does it make sense for this world to be populated by monsters that can apparently toss around mountains? No. But that's never stopped writers and it's not going to stop Death Battle either.

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## Lemmy

The one for Goro was indeed really dumb...

I think it's generally fair to say that in fighting games, most characters are more or less in the same ballpark, with a few being considerably stronger (usually protagonists, bosses and their rivals) and a few others being considerably weaker (usually joke characters).

Goro is considerably stronger than most MK characters... Being even bale to defeat the legendary Great Khung Lao (ancestor of the current one), something that even Shang Tsung couldn't do (in fact, dealing with The Great Kung Lao was the whole reason he recruited Goro). And he's noted for having amazing strength, speed and reflexes, despite his size.

Now, going from that to "can run faster than Kabal" is quite a leap, but Goro should indeed be able to match the physical feats of most characters, except in cases such as Kabal, where his main feat is very extreme and very specialized, or in the case of characters that are even stronger than him (basically Elder gods, boss characters and Liu Kang).

That said, Goro really did suffer heavily from villain decay over the decades... These days, he's basically a jobber. It's embarrassing, really.

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## Anonymouswizard

Ah yes, Death 'same power source means same strength' Battle. Surely the analysis is strong in this series.

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## Traab

> Agreed. There are like 4 sources of canon for Pokemon (Manga, anime, game, and Pokedex) so unless you exclusively look at what is seen (and not said) in just the anime, you get some frankly insane results. 
> 
> Does it make sense for this world to be populated by monsters that can apparently toss around mountains? No. But that's never stopped writers and it's not going to stop Death Battle either.


Reality itself would have collapsed centuries ago if the pokedex entries were even remotely accurate. From pokemon so hot they are basically the heart of stars walking around like normal and NOT igniting the atmosphere wherever they go, to literal black hole creating psychics that arent even legendaries. To torture creatures like houndoom where if you get burned by them it will never EVER stop feeling like you are on fire for the rest of your life. The pokedex was written by 12 year olds out with their starter pokemon and a 4th grade education trying to describe how "awesome" the pokemon they saw totally was.

----------


## Rynjin

> Reality itself would have collapsed centuries ago if the pokedex entries were even remotely accurate. From pokemon so hot they are basically the heart of stars walking around like normal and NOT igniting the atmosphere wherever they go, to literal black hole creating psychics that arent even legendaries. To torture creatures like houndoom where if you get burned by them it will never EVER stop feeling like you are on fire for the rest of your life. The pokedex was written by 12 year olds out with their starter pokemon and a 4th grade education trying to describe how "awesome" the pokemon they saw totally was.


The Pokemon universe is just built different, fam. Accept it at face value, because it's canon, and nothing you say will change that lol.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Reality itself would have collapsed centuries ago if the pokedex entries were even remotely accurate. From pokemon so hot they are basically the heart of stars walking around like normal and NOT igniting the atmosphere wherever they go, to literal black hole creating psychics that arent even legendaries. To torture creatures like houndoom where if you get burned by them it will never EVER stop feeling like you are on fire for the rest of your life. The pokedex was written by 12 year olds out with their starter pokemon and a 4th grade education trying to describe how "awesome" the pokemon they saw totally was.


Technically I believe the Pokédex scans Pokémon and creates the entries itself.

Of course this is a universe where ten year olds routinely leave home and go around spending their entire lives focused on catching Pokémon. In one region it might be as old as FOURTEEN. I'm not convinced the Professors have enough of an education to realise how insane these statements are.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Reality itself would have collapsed centuries ago if the pokedex entries were even remotely accurate. From pokemon so hot they are basically the heart of stars walking around like normal and NOT igniting the atmosphere wherever they go, to literal black hole creating psychics that arent even legendaries. To torture creatures like houndoom where if you get burned by them it will never EVER stop feeling like you are on fire for the rest of your life. The pokedex was written by 12 year olds out with their starter pokemon and a 4th grade education trying to describe how "awesome" the pokemon they saw totally was.


And punching a black hole into existence makes absolutely no sense and yet that was seen as a perfectly valid feat. Same with the entire cast of FF7 being able to survive a supernova. 

Should Death Battle (and everyone else for that matter) point out and disregard feats that make no sense? Yes, yes they should. But they don't. So if you aren't going to discard the nonsensical feats from one franchise, you shouldn't disregard them from any.

----------


## Devonix

> And punching a black hole into existence makes absolutely no sense and yet that was seen as a perfectly valid feat. Same with the entire cast of FF7 being able to survive a supernova. 
> 
> Should Death Battle (and everyone else for that matter) point out and disregard feats that make no sense? Yes, yes they should. But they don't. So if you aren't going to discard the nonsensical feats from one franchise, you shouldn't disregard them from any.


The idea of FF7 characters surviving a supernova is just laughable and not backed up by anything in the story.

----------


## McNum

With Legends Arceus in play, the Pokémon world gets even crazier. Also new age record for the protagonist, they're about fifteen in it.

Arceus itself gets fleshed out a bit and... yeah. It's pretty much at the "Can you even fight something like that?" level now. Arceus *is*. The white, rarely golden, horse with a hula hoop? That's how much Arceus you can safely put into a ball. An avatar at most, an aspect of the true Arceus, one that you can comprehend.

From how Pokémon has described the way multiple versions and copies of the games in the past as multiverses, as in my game and your game are parallel universes, Legends Arceus implies that among the millions upon millions of individual game universes, there is only the one Arceus.

I honestly don't know if you could even find an opponent for something like that. Sure, you can punch that horse and take it down since it's weak to Fighting in its Normal form, but that doesn't really beat Arceus. But you might get its attention that way.

Somehow getting the attention of Arceus the creator seems like a bad idea for your long term health. Unless it likes you, it does seem rather friendly if you're not trying to break a universe.

----------


## Traab

> And punching a black hole into existence makes absolutely no sense and yet that was seen as a perfectly valid feat. Same with the entire cast of FF7 being able to survive a supernova. 
> 
> Should Death Battle (and everyone else for that matter) point out and disregard feats that make no sense? Yes, yes they should. But they don't. So if you aren't going to discard the nonsensical feats from one franchise, you shouldn't disregard them from any.


The thing is though, at least ff7 is portrayed with people being explicitly superhuman. With magic and science advanced far beyond the norm in a world designed to deal with city destroying monsters attacking them. You can at least TRY to justify the crazy in the games by bringing up all the magic and gear and amazing feats performed by the characters. In pokemon they write up these grandiose descriptions of what the pokemon can do just by being there and its not reflected in anything in the anime, manga, games, etc. There is absolutely nothing mentioned in universe that could be used to explain the discrepancies between pokedex entries and what we actually see happen. Magcargo is listed as 18,000 degrees. Here we see one evolving. Notice anything strange? The half dozen people and pokemon standing within 6 feet of it havent burst into flames. Also you see things like descriptions on how a magcargo forms by living in volcanic craters for thousands of years. What the actual eff is that nonsense? The only purpose the pokedex serves is to create nonsense entries used to handwave all observed data and pretend the pokemon are much more powerful than they actually are.

----------


## Devonix

> With Legends Arceus in play, the Pokémon world gets even crazier. Also new age record for the protagonist, they're about fifteen in it.
> 
> Arceus itself gets fleshed out a bit and... yeah. It's pretty much at the "Can you even fight something like that?" level now. Arceus *is*. The white, rarely golden, horse with a hula hoop? That's how much Arceus you can safely put into a ball. An avatar at most, an aspect of the true Arceus, one that you can comprehend.
> 
> From how Pokémon has described the way multiple versions and copies of the games in the past as multiverses, as in my game and your game are parallel universes, Legends Arceus implies that among the millions upon millions of individual game universes, there is only the one Arceus.
> 
> I honestly don't know if you could even find an opponent for something like that. Sure, you can punch that horse and take it down since it's weak to Fighting in its Normal form, but that doesn't really beat Arceus. But you might get its attention that way.
> 
> Somehow getting the attention of Arceus the creator seems like a bad idea for your long term health. Unless it likes you, it does seem rather friendly if you're not trying to break a universe.


Creatures like that can usually only interact via avatars, so if you can handle an avatar you should be ok.  The only problem is that you're gonna keep running into Avatars for a while until he gets bored or you slip up.

----------


## McNum

> Creatures like that can usually only interact via avatars, so if you can handle an avatar you should be ok.  The only problem is that you're gonna keep running into Avatars for a while until he gets bored or you slip up.


Usually being the word here.

There is one time in the game, where you do meet the one Arceus, right at the beginning.

But since what it does has implications throughout the entire game... Spoiler box, I choose you!
*Spoiler: Pokémon Legends Arceus*
Show

The game is an isekai.

You meet Arceus as it moves you from modern times back into ancient Hisui, for reasons unknown. "SEEK ALL POKÉMON" it commands.

But just to get odd, Arceus steals your phone. Then puts an ugly cover on it, and throws it after you into the past, where it has infinite battery and surprisingly good reception for a pre-electricity era. It marks points on your map and sends you text messages regularly. Yes, you're getting texts from god. Best not to think too hard.

Lots of things happen, you get a reputation of being fearless in the face of any Pokémon, settle a religious dispute by demonstrating that "almighty Sinnoh" is both Dialga and Palkia, and start filling up your Pokédex as Arceus commanded.

However, as you get close to done with that, you run into someone who is trying to summon Giratina, basically the god of anti-matter, to end the universe and create it anew. And that person is by a wide margin the most powerful Pokémon Wielder in the entire region, possibly world. It is easily the toughest main story battle in the entire series, too. Yes, I'm including Champion Cynthia in that. Who, upon defeat complains that it's as if Arceus itself had sent you back in time just to get in his way.

...which is about where it clicks. There's literally no one in the entire world that could defeat him. Except... that weird kid from the future who already was an accomplished Pokémon Trainer and doesn't blink at facing down legends in combat. You.

And that's Arceus for you. Plucking out the one person in all of time and space that could prevent the loss of a universe to Giratina. Because Arceus may not be entirely omnipotent, but it makes a good try at it.

Then you fight it hand-to-god. Yup. There's just something wonderfully terrifying at seeing a boss health bar show up and across the arena from you stands Arceus. And you're not throwing out a Pokémon.

Then the music starts.

So yeah... I honestly have no idea what kind of opponent you could put in Arceus' way. We're in a weight class where Darkseid, or Galactus are a tier below it. You kind of need someone who can strike out at abstract divine singularities outside of space and time to even have a shot. To put it bluntly, Arceus would be an awful character for a Death Battle.

But it is fun to see just how far they took the idea of a Deified Pokémon and ran with it.

----------


## Devonix

> Usually being the word here.
> 
> There is one time in the game, where you do meet the one Arceus, right at the beginning.
> 
> But since what it does has implications throughout the entire game... Spoiler box, I choose you!
> *Spoiler: Pokémon Legends Arceus*
> Show
> 
> The game is an isekai.
> ...


If you're interacting and meeting with it, then it's either or an avatar, or not that big of a deal since you as a little human can interact with it.

----------


## McNum

> If you're interacting and meeting with it, then it's either or an avatar, or not that big of a deal since you as a little human can interact with it.


True. Also I feel like there's a difference between interacting with and being acted upon. The first contact is definitely the latter.  Being the chosen one, the hard way.

Heh, amusingly it might count as an inversion as in Legends Arceus, a Pokémon chooses you!

----------


## Iamyourking

This time:
*Spoiler*
Show

For the first time in history, DC loses to something other than Marvel.


Next time:
*Spoiler*
Show

As predicted, Scarlet Witch vs. Zatanna.

----------


## Rater202

*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

If they take Wanda's most recent major appearances into account then it's Wanda hands down.

Trial of Magneto had her fuse with two other versions of herself permenantlyone who as younger and fitter with more optimized version of her power and one who was older and far more experiencedand Darkhold made her control over Chaos Magic perfect and had ear almost literally Eat the Elder god of Magic, thus staling his power and mantles for herself, as a way of defeating him for good after he'd been a foe for her entire life.

So all her existing feats, other than "No More Mutants" which involved an outside power-up, can probably be tripled or even cubed in scale and Wanda now also scales to Cthon and anyone whose powers have come straight from the Darkhold because for all intents and purposes she now is both Cthon and the Darkhold.

...The Darkhold series even ends with her clowning on Doctor Doom who had wanted to take that power for himself.

However, they didn't do that with Carnage, Venom, or Namor in favor of more iconic depictions in which case I literally don't know because I don't know what Zantana's greatest feats are.

----------


## Otomodachi

*Spoiler*
Show

It *could* be a contest. Zatanna's backwards talking magic can do pretty close to anything except bring back the dead, and she's stepped to gods, which offhand I'd say are more equivalent to Marvel elder beings than Marvel gods, just a difference of terminology. It could really come down to tricks and quirks and efficient usage stuff. And at the end of the day Zatanna COULD bring back the dead by using other forms of magic aside from backwards talking, being a top tier magic user on the DC universe; if John could do it she probably could do but has the good sense not to, as a rule.

But Zatanna PROBABLY has comparable raw power, and she DOES have lots of "wizard type" magic to draw on (much as Wanda is *long* since past being limited to her chaos Magicka mutant power dealy).

Could be a good fight but probably it'll be disappointing on some level, because both characters are intensely "narratively" strong, like, you know, the characters that are really only limited by the need to tell a good story.

Edit: actually I bet it'll come down to one of three things; Zatanna has imperfect but fairly reliable fortune telling; Wanda's magic might just be quicker; or a surprise twist ending where Zatanna does blood magic to turn around a losing fight.

----------


## Traab

*Spoiler: This time*
Show

As soon as I saw the immunity to poisons and such and the transitive property they gave jinx for her strength and durability and best attack, I knew how it would end. Also the "takes hits from a guy who shakes mountains" is not a good comparison. Its like saying lex luthor can survive infinite damage because superman hit him once and didnt turn him into paste. We dont know how hard of a hit he delivered in that clip of her not dying when shoulder checked by his shield or whatever.

----------


## TeChameleon

> *Spoiler: This time*
> Show
> 
> As soon as I saw the immunity to poisons and such and the transitive property they gave jinx for her strength and durability and best attack, I knew how it would end. Also the "takes hits from a guy who shakes mountains" is not a good comparison. Its like saying lex luthor can survive infinite damage because superman hit him once and didnt turn him into paste. We dont know how hard of a hit he delivered in that clip of her not dying when shoulder checked by his shield or whatever.


*Spoiler: This time*
Show

Yeah, the poison resistance/immunity was pretty much a dead giveaway.  That being said, they didn't play up the durability on Jinx too terribly much, so it didn't bug me as much as it might have otherwise.


*Spoiler: Next time*
Show

Yeah, this one's not a bad matchup, barring extreme goofiness that's not generally known on the part of one or the other.  The one wildcard I'm seeing is Scarlet Witch's mutant power (or whatever she is now, it'll change once Marvel gets its panties untwisted about Fox formerly having the Mutant Movie rights), which to the best of my understanding isn't technically magic, so might catch Zatanna off guard if the laws of probability are suddenly not behaving the way they should, and she can't sense any magic on it.

----------


## Rater202

*Spoiler: Not a spoiler but just in case*
Show

Wanda isnt a mutant again, but rather a "mutate posing as a mutant." It's got something to do with the High Evolutionary's technology interacting with the magical radiation of Wundergore which gave the twins powers and mutant-like physiology.

...Though, ranted, the High Evolutionary is known to lie about what his tech is capable of or the origins of other people's stuff in order to support his agenda. He once claimed that rather than cloning people, Miles Warren was kidnapping people and using genetic manipulation, brainwashing, and surgery to turn people into duplicates of Gwen and Peter in order to discredit cloning as a science.

They haven't gone back and fixed it, but the current status quo is that while they aren't technically mutants they're close enough in every way that counts.

Magneto is also on the record as stating that he doesn't care whether Wanda and Pietro are his flesh and blood children, he thinks of them as his... And realizes that he's been a ****ty father to them and wants to make amends.

Notably, Billy and Tommy were welcome on Krakoa even when their mom was considered persona non-gratta. Though only Tommy took it up. Billy was busy ruling outer spcace alongside his husband.

Recently, Wanda has finally earned the forgiveness of the X-Men by creating a mutant afterlife. Which basically removes any and all concerns and limitations of Krakoa's ressurection protocols.

...There's even a door on th isand where the living can just waltz iinto the mutant afterlife to visit wih dead mutants awaiting revival. They call it the Waiting Room.

----------


## Traab

> *Spoiler: This time*
> Show
> 
> Yeah, the poison resistance/immunity was pretty much a dead giveaway.  That being said, they didn't play up the durability on Jinx too terribly much, so it didn't bug me as much as it might have otherwise.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: Next time*
> Show
> 
> Yeah, this one's not a bad matchup, barring extreme goofiness that's not generally known on the part of one or the other.  The one wildcard I'm seeing is Scarlet Witch's mutant power (or whatever she is now, it'll change once Marvel gets its panties untwisted about Fox formerly having the Mutant Movie rights), which to the best of my understanding isn't technically magic, so might catch Zatanna off guard if the laws of probability are suddenly not behaving the way they should, and she can't sense any magic on it.


Honestly at this point I think we can dispense with spoilers. Either you watched the video and came back here or you werent going to in the first place. Anyways, they kinda did lean into the durability angle by basically saying harley couldnt do anything to jinx. Her poisons and other concoctions were useless, and jinx can take shots from mountain shakers so hammer time didnt help much.

----------


## McNum

Zatanna vs. Scarlet Witch happened. So that's a thing now.

*Spoiler: This Time...*
Show

With both characters basically have a power of "YES!" it really did come down to Zatanna not having a history of cracking under pressure while Wanda... yeah. Honestly, in a battle between reality warpers, whoever blinks loses, and Wanda blinked. Can't really fault this one.


*Spoiler: Next Time...*
Show

I kind of wish I knew these two better, but hey, Jojo vs. Demon Slayer is going to make some people happy, I think.

Is Jonathan the one who introduced Stands to Jojo or was that someone else?

----------


## Traab

> Zatanna vs. Scarlet Witch happened. So that's a thing now.
> 
> *Spoiler: This Time...*
> Show
> 
> With both characters basically have a power of "YES!" it really did come down to Zatanna not having a history of cracking under pressure while Wanda... yeah. Honestly, in a battle between reality warpers, whoever blinks loses, and Wanda blinked. Can't really fault this one.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: Next Time...*
> ...


*Spoiler: this time*
Show

 I agree. i wanted to quibble but you have the main point, one side is fairly well known for cracking, the other is not. When both sides have the power of "yes." its those details that come to mind to settle it. As someone in a book i read once said, "Does it matter if our gods are stronger than their gods? Both sides could reduce us to vapor with a thought, does the color of the vapor matter?" You cant really argue strength when both sides have the power to break everything.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Zatanna vs. Scarlet Witch happened. So that's a thing now.
> 
> *Spoiler: This Time...*
> Show
> 
> With both characters basically have a power of "YES!" it really did come down to Zatanna not having a history of cracking under pressure while Wanda... yeah. Honestly, in a battle between reality warpers, whoever blinks loses, and Wanda blinked. Can't really fault this one.


*Spoiler*
Show

Yea makes sense, although I could also see it going the other way purely on the argument that Wanda being more unstable and erratic could be an advantage in such a fight. This one works for me though




> *Spoiler: Next Time...*
> Show
> 
> I kind of wish I knew these two better, but hey, Jojo vs. Demon Slayer is going to make some people happy, I think.
> 
> Is Jonathan the one who introduced Stands to Jojo or was that someone else?


*Spoiler*
Show

Oh yea I'm all about this one. Jonathan isn't a stand user. He was the first in the line and used super special breathing powers to punch vampires. A great matchup overall, I actually have a personal fan theory about how Demon Slayer matches up scarily well to just fit into JoJo but in Japan. I don't think it is a great matchup for Johnathan though. Demon Slayer super special breathing powers tend to come with a great deal of physical enhancement and Hamon tends to just blow things up with a funny inconsistency when used on other people. You see it blow up literally cliffsides or blast through steel but never another person. I think Johnathan's grandson Joseph would take a win easy but Johnathan might just get stat checked by Breathing Style's enhancement. I don't remember anything Tanjiro has giving him super speed flash step BS like the lightning style though so there is probably still a chance.

----------


## Iamyourking

Next time:
*Spoiler*
Show

The thing with Jonathan is, he's bonkers strong even if he doesn't have a Stand, can't directly hurt people with Hamon, and doesn't have Joseph's ludicrous luck and improvisational skills. He can break chains that could hold Tarkus, who was shattering cliffs with raw strength, and is fast enough to dodge Space Ripper Stinging Eyes at close range. I have heard that Araki has claimed he's as physically strong as Star Platinum, although I haven't seen a source for this. His durability isn't as good, since the Stinging Eyes mortally wounded him when they did hit, but not being instantly killed after being hit by an attack that Death Battle has already calculated at 10.6 Megatons isn't bad.

----------


## Rynjin

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Yea makes sense, although I could also see it going the other way purely on the argument that Wanda being more unstable and erratic could be an advantage in such a fight. This one works for me though
> 
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> ...


Hamon not hurting people is a specific feature, not an inconsistency. It can blast objects, and absolutely rips undead creatures apart, but the Hamon wave passes through organic matter harmlessly. This is demonstrated by Zepelli the instant the mechanic is introduced, with the frog.

You can use Hamon to hurt people indirectly (eg. by making a spaghetti noodle razor sharp and strong as steel), but Jonathan never does this, and likely doesn't even know how. Joseph has an intuitive understanding of Hamon and its properties Joseph lacks.

That said, knowing DB, they'll give Jonathan the Hamon Feats of all known Hamon users because it's something he "could theoretically do", so who knows?

What Jonathan has going for him is that he's literally a ripoff of Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star, so in terms of raw physical prowess he dwarfs any future JoJo.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Zatanna vs. Scarlet Witch happened. So that's a thing now.
> 
> *Spoiler: This Time...*
> Show
> 
> With both characters basically have a power of "YES!" it really did come down to Zatanna not having a history of cracking under pressure while Wanda... yeah. Honestly, in a battle between reality warpers, whoever blinks loses, and Wanda blinked. Can't really fault this one.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: Next Time...*
> ...


*Spoiler: This time*
Show

Agreed. Maybe someone super familiar with DC and Marvel lore could argue differently, but from what I do know, Scarlet Witch is so unstable she's taken herself out of the fight more then once. 


*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

I'm looking forward to this one, though I'll admit most of what I know about Jonathan is the 'one you are about to say next is' meme.

----------


## hungrycrow

*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

*Spoiler: Demon Slayer manga spoilers*
Show

Doesn't Tanjiro sort of have precognition later in the manga? I'm not sciency enough to compare their absurd strength and speed feats but that could tip things in Tanjiro's favor either way.

Speaking of later in the manga, does Tanjiro's peak include his demon form, which is invincible to anything but a specially made vampire cure and the power of friendship?






> *Spoiler: Next Time*
> Show
> 
> I'm looking forward to this one, though I'll admit most of what I know about Jonathan is the 'one you are about to say next is' meme.


*Spoiler*
Show

That's Joseph. Jonathan is the bland Fist of the North Star knock-off.

----------


## Dragonus45

> *Spoiler: Next Time*
> Show
> 
> *Spoiler: Demon Slayer manga spoilers*
> Show
> 
> Doesn't Tanjiro sort of have precognition later in the manga? I'm not sciency enough to compare their absurd strength and speed feats but that could tip things in Tanjiro's favor either way.
> 
> Speaking of later in the manga, does Tanjiro's peak include his demon form, which is invincible to anything but a specially made vampire cure and the power of friendship?
> ...


*Spoiler: demon slayer spoilers*
Show

*Spoiler*
Show

So, the special swords they use to stab demons are special explicitly special metals that have absorbed sunlight. Hamon is sunlight punching because vampire and demon slayer demons are spookily similar. Demon Tanjiro might actually be a _weakness_ in this fight.

----------


## hungrycrow

> *Spoiler: demon slayer spoilers*
> Show
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> So, the special swords they use to stab demons are special explicitly special metals that have absorbed sunlight. Hamon is sunlight punching because vampire and demon slayer demons are spookily similar. Demon Tanjiro might actually be a _weakness_ in this fight.


*Spoiler: manga*
Show

Demon Tanjiro overcame the sunlight weakness though.

----------


## Dragonus45

> *Spoiler: manga*
> Show
> 
> Demon Tanjiro overcame the sunlight weakness though.


*Spoiler*
Show

Immune is a strong word, even a demon like Nezuko who was immune to the suns light on its own would still die when beheaded with one of the special swords. By that logic, Hamon would probably also be able to effect them. Although it might be less effective, one thing Jonathan was never short on was overwhelming might.

----------


## hungrycrow

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Immune is a strong word, even a demon like Nezuko who was immune to the suns light on its own would still die when beheaded with one of the special swords. By that logic, Hamon would probably also be able to effect them. Although it might be less effective, one thing Jonathan was never short on was overwhelming might.


*Spoiler*
Show

I guess we can't know for sure since no one lands a hit on him, but Giyu specifically claims that neither sunlight nor nichirin blades would work.

----------


## Dragonus45

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I guess we can't know for sure since no one lands a hit on him, but Giyu specifically claims that neither sunlight nor nichirin blades would work.


*Spoiler*
Show

He said that out of nowhere and no one actually cut him before the cure came out so that statement is suspect to say the least.

----------


## hungrycrow

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> He said that out of nowhere and no one actually cut him before the cure came out so that statement is suspect to say the least.


*Spoiler*
Show

He said that after seeing Tanjiro adapt to sunlight. As you pointed out the nichirin blades only hurt demons by using sunlight, so the idea that the blades no longer work is a pretty logical leap. Nothing contradicts him and there's nothing to suggest he doesn't know what he's talking about, so I don't see why that statement should be suspect.

----------


## TeChameleon

*Spoiler: This time:*
Show

One thing that struck me slightly oddly is that I hadn't known about Zatanna's... kind of meta-textual feats.  To my knowledge, she's usually portrayed as kind of Magic's Middleweight Champ.  She's got a decent amount of power, sure, but she's not in the seriously big leagues like the Spectre, Eclipso, the Lords of Order/Chaos and so forth.  It's her flexibility and cleverness that lets her punch well out of her weight class, not just overwhelming her foes with torrents of raw power.

Dunno.  As portrayed, the throwdown made sense.  But Zatanna felt... sort of out-of-character, throwing universes at someone.

----------


## Dragonus45

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> He said that after seeing Tanjiro adapt to sunlight. As you pointed out the nichirin blades only hurt demons by using sunlight, so the idea that the blades no longer work is a pretty logical leap. Nothing contradicts him and there's nothing to suggest he doesn't know what he's talking about, so I don't see why that statement should be suspect.


*Spoiler*
Show

They were very explicit that Nezuko could still be killed despite her not being hurt by direct sunlight. I'm not sure how the two entirely contradictory statements about how that works could not be considered suspect.

----------


## hungrycrow

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> They were very explicit that Nezuko could still be killed despite her not being hurt by direct sunlight. I'm not sure how the two entirely contradictory statements about how that works could not be considered suspect.


*Spoiler*
Show

Where do they state that? I don't remember anyone considering attacking her after she adapts to the sun.

----------


## Dragonus45

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Where do they state that? I don't remember anyone considering attacking her after she adapts to the sun.


*Spoiler*
Show

Because by that point they had resolved to cure her and not kill her, they had done that whole song and dance before. She was still mortal in sense of being killable.

----------


## hungrycrow

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Because by that point they had resolved to cure her and not kill her, they had done that whole song and dance before. She was still mortal in sense of being killable.


*Spoiler*
Show

What I mean is, which scene are they "very explicit" about her still being vulnerable to their swords? There's a lot of manga left at that point, I can't really read through the whole thing to find one conversation.

----------


## Dragonus45

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> What I mean is, which scene are they "very explicit" about her still being vulnerable to their swords? There's a lot of manga left at that point, I can't really read through the whole thing to find one conversation.


I'm drowning in a One Piece reread and literally used up the 100 chapters of backlog I have for today so I'm not sure exactly where it would be. But Nezuku wasn't totally immortal, she just could be in the sun.

----------


## hungrycrow

> I'm drowning in a One Piece reread and literally used up the 100 chapters of backlog I have for today so I'm not sure exactly where it would be. But Nezuku wasn't totally immortal, she just could be in the sun.


Fair enough.

----------


## oogaboogagoblin

im calling jonathan wins solely based on dio v. alucard. whoever's doing the math is really into jojo because there's no way dio could have won that (speaking as a jojo fan). and there's absolutely no way hes 11x the speed of light or whatever it was. what im willing to bet is using a long list of feats from different charechters they somehow pull the fact that jonathan can destroy mountains or something. the fights still gonna be fun to watch though

----------


## Iamyourking

I agree that Jonathan will probably win, but the writing and research for the episode are being done by a different person than Dio vs. Alucard and most of the extreme feats they gave Dio were specifically for The World.

----------


## Rynjin

Yeah. Dio is not 11x the speed of light. The World probably isn't either, but a stronger argument could be made for sure.

----------


## Iamyourking

It's an extreme stretch, but it is actually possible to get Light Speed Jonathan. Before drinking Joseph's blood, Dio couldn't use his vampire powers; so any physical feats he displays are things Jonathan could do without using Hamon. In that state he has no trouble blitzing Joseph, who dodged a beam of light from the Red Stone of Aja during his fight with Kars. Any speed Joseph lost from age is more than outweighed by the speed Jonathan's body would be losing from not being to use Hamon; therefore Jonathan has Light Speed reaction times. Of course, this is built on highly questionable logic and a great deal of assumptions; but as researcher's blog said to use Parts 1-3 as resources for determining how strong Jonathan is we may very well see him being scaled to Joseph and Part 3 Dio.

----------


## hungrycrow

> It's an extreme stretch, but it is actually possible to get Light Speed Jonathan. Before drinking Joseph's blood, Dio couldn't use his vampire powers; so any physical feats he displays are things Jonathan could do without using Hamon. In that state he has no trouble blitzing Joseph, who dodged a beam of light from the Red Stone of Aja during his fight with Kars. Any speed Joseph lost from age is more than outweighed by the speed Jonathan's body would be losing from not being to use Hamon; therefore Jonathan has Light Speed reaction times. Of course, this is built on highly questionable logic and a great deal of assumptions; but as researcher's blog said to use Parts 1-3 as resources for determining how strong Jonathan is we may very well see him being scaled to Joseph and Part 3 Dio.


That's not even a stretch, it's just wrong. Dio did have his vampire powers before drinking Joseph's blood, and he demonstrates this by regenerating himself several times. His regeneration just wasn't as fast as if he had more Joestar blood. But we couldn't say that his feats are Jonathan's feats, even with tenuous Death Battle logic.

----------


## Iamyourking

There's also "Jonathan's body was rejecting Dio, so he clearly wasn't as strong as he was in Part 1. Despite that, he was still able to outspeed Joseph without using The World. Jonathan beat him in Part 1, so he is naturally also faster than Joseph-who has lightspeed reaction times." They both come down to deciding that Young Joseph can react to beams of light, and wasn't just using his subconscious precognition or insane luck to act before the light started to move, and then trying to find a way to scale Jonathan to that.

----------


## McNum

And so another battle concludes. I am not familiar with either character to say if it was the right outcome, but it certainly was a different tone for a fight than usual.

*Spoiler: Next time...*
Show

Oh, Vegeta's back. And he's fighting Marvel's Thor.

Well one thing is certain, Vegeta can't lift Mjolnir, but other than that, I am having trouble seeing how Thor can keep up with ol' Geets. He is quite fast now. Also he has Super Ego.

----------


## Rater202

*Spoiler: Prediction*
Show

Thy're going to have Vegeta's Ultra Ego cost him the fight when he keeps letting Thor hurt him to get the power boost.

Bonus points, they'll make some statement about Ultra Ego being comparable to Ultra Instinct, it;s equel and opposite, and Thor being one of Marvel's analogs of Superman, to claim that Superman still beats Goku.

----------


## McNum

> *Spoiler: Prediction*
> Show
> 
> Thy're going to have Vegeta's Ultra Ego cost him the fight when he keeps letting Thor hurt him to get the power boost.
> 
> Bonus points, they'll make some statement about Ultra Ego being comparable to Ultra Instinct, it;s equel and opposite, and Thor being one of Marvel's analogs of Superman, to claim that Superman still beats Goku.


*Spoiler: Next fight*
Show

Is that how that works? Has Vegeta turned getting smacked around into a power boost? That's almost broken on a guy who takes that many beatings and still comes back for more.

----------


## Rater202

> *Spoiler: Next fight*
> Show
> 
> Is that how that works? Has Vegeta turned getting smacked around into a power boost? That's almost broken on a guy who takes that many beatings and still comes back for more.


*Spoiler*
Show

Like how Ultra Instinct enhances Goku's Saiyan power so that he grows stronger and more skilled in real-time as he adapts to his opponent's attacks, Ultra Ego enhances it so that Vegeta's raw power increases as he is injured in battle.

The problem is, he doesn't gain enhanced healing abilities to compensate so he's still taking damage and being worn down.

Furthermore, since Vegeta has not yet mastered Ultra Ego he finds himself compelled to indulge in his desires... This means that he deliberately tanks attacks he should have blocked or dodged in order to grow stronger, headless of the damage to his body.

----------


## Seppl

*Spoiler: next time*
Show

Hey! That one was already covered by Death Battle (X)!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ozmo6BkpUo
_Probably_ not the outcome we can expect this time. Also, I hope the production quality gets better, that DBX was pretty lame.

----------


## Lemmy

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Like how Ultra Instinct enhances Goku's Saiyan power so that he grows stronger and more skilled in real-time as he adapts to his opponent's attacks, Ultra Ego enhances it so that Vegeta's raw power increases as he is injured in battle.
> 
> The problem is, he doesn't gain enhanced healing abilities to compensate so he's still taking damage and being worn down.
> 
> Furthermore, since Vegeta has not yet mastered Ultra Ego he finds himself compelled to indulge in his desires... This means that he deliberately tanks attacks he should have blocked or dodged in order to grow stronger, headless of the damage to his body.


*Spoiler*
Show

I'm not sure that's how it works... It seems that Ultra Ego makes Vegeta stronger the more fired up by battlelust he gets... And getting hit gets him more fired up. But I don't think it's the damage itself that makes him stronger... Or at least that wasn't the impression I got.

----------


## Rynjin

>Jonathan is a "swordsman" because of that sword he had for like 4 chapters and used once.

Okay

----------


## HolyDraconus

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I'm not sure that's how it works... It seems that Ultra Ego makes Vegeta stronger the more fired up by battlelust he gets... And getting hit gets him more fired up. But I don't think it's the damage itself that makes him stronger... Or at least that wasn't the impression I got.


*Spoiler*
Show

we are also talking about Manga Geets... where in the manga Goku's UI has a flat limit, compared to the anime where he was growing as the fight continued. And if UE is on the table then they are scaling Geets to Manga Goku.. who when stats are applied is WEAKER than the anime version. Geets lost this one hard. Endgame ( not the movie) Thor can straight up nope Geets out the fight. 


Don't know why I quoted Lemmy but I mean nothing bad by it. It was just at the bottom of the spoiler tree XD :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Traab

So uhhhh. Death battle is up? *Spoiler: This time*
Show

Yah, the second they gave jojo lightspeed feats I knew it was over. 


*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

Thor versus Vegeta? Depending on how esoteric they get with some of thors storylines, this could be an interesting matchup. Rune King Thor for example. Dude is weaker than a fully fed galactus, but stronger than a hungry one. You know, they guy who literally eats planets for breakfast? He has all sorts of reality and energy manipulation feats, and only ranks below omnipotent beings like the one above all. And he is gonna need it against a god ki vegeta


*EDIT* Sorry for the oddly worded start, for some reason i didnt see this thread as updated today till after I posted lol

----------


## Iamyourking

*Spoiler: This Time*
Show

Like I said, Lightspeed Jonathan. As for the fight itself, I was really hoping it would end with Jonathan beating Tanjiro down to the beat of Sono Chi Na Sadame before finishing him at the "JOJO!" part. I also think they should have been more clear that Jonathan is explicitly physically superior to Tarkus.


*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

I'm disappointed that they're doing four already revealed fights in a row. I'm sure the 7/4 fight won't be, but I was hoping that the other unrevealed fight would be next.

----------


## SKarious

*Spoiler: This time*
Show


As said before, those "lightspeed reaction time" argument is complete junk.
Not to mention all that transitive property - "DIO, (2 series later, after several power boosts) could do it, so anyone who beat him before that could do it too". 

Also also, I didn't watch Demon Slayer, but couldn't Tanjiro's sun-breathing negate Hamon regeneration. It was specifically pointed it's one of its functions.



*Spoiler*
Show

Next time
The loser's bracket! As much a DBZ seems powerful, I'm rooting for Thor to win this one, just to make poor Vegeta suffer even more.

----------


## Lemmy

> Don't know why I quoted Lemmy but I mean nothing bad by it. It was just at the bottom of the spoiler tree XD


You probably just couldn't resist my ragged good looks and witty charm... Don't worry. It happens to everyone.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Rater202

If we assume that Vegeta has a fai shot, his biggest advantage her is probably forcedSpirit Fission.

A technique he picked up when he decided to get help raining from the Metamorans, it allows the user to manipulate other people's ki.

From gathering donated ki more efficiently, to stealing the ki from an opponent, to freeing trapped souls, to sending stolen energy back where it beings (which can even raise the recently dead or restore life to barren planets.)

Notably: While Vegeta doesn't demonstrate his power, he claims that f he were so inclined he could forcibly separate the current Piccolo back into Piccolo junior, Nail, and Kami with the technique.

A Lo of Thor's power is technically separate entities or energy sources not native to his body. If Vegeta can land a decent hit then he could forcibly power Thor down to "base" Thor levels.

----------


## HolyDraconus

> You probably just couldn't resist my ragged good looks and witty charm... Don't worry. It happens to everyone.


How did he know?!? XD



> If we assume that Vegeta has a fai shot, his biggest advantage her is probably forcedSpirit Fission.
> 
> A technique he picked up when he decided to get help raining from the Metamorans, it allows the user to manipulate other people's ki.
> 
> From gathering donated ki more efficiently, to stealing the ki from an opponent, to freeing trapped souls, to sending stolen energy back where it beings (which can even raise the recently dead or restore life to barren planets.)
> 
> Notably: While Vegeta doesn't demonstrate his power, he claims that f he were so inclined he could forcibly separate the current Piccolo back into Piccolo junior, Nail, and Kami with the technique.
> 
> A Lo of Thor's power is technically separate entities or energy sources not native to his body. If Vegeta can land a decent hit then he could forcibly power Thor down to "base" Thor levels.


Depends entirely on which Thor they used for this fight. Some iterations of him has the Thor force as part of who he is and not a separate energy. And then theres some that state that him and the rest of the asgardians are in a time loop, where Thor is just past and future Odin. And if they go that route. As for the piccolo part; he cant defuse kami from him. He can eject nail, but it was flat out stated that kami and piccolo are one and the same, even after piccolo died and jr was born.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

*Spoiler: This time*
Show

Jonathan can react faster than light? That's clearly not true, he's fast in a human sense (clearly established by him being a top-tier rugby player), but I'm fairly certain Phantom Blood-era Dio was faster than him. His main advantages are being incredibly strong and quick thinking, even if he pales in comparison to Joseph.

Also dodging a beam of light doesn't mean you have to react FTL, just faster than whatever's sending the beam.

On the other hand, from the rest of the breakdowns Jonathan winning is plausible, just unlikely. As long as he can breath he's insanely tough, so it depends on if Tanjiro would aim for Jonathan's neck. I've not read Demon Slayer, so I wouldn't know.


On next time, eh, I couldn't care less about DBZ.

----------


## HolyDraconus

Thor Blerp is up. Still firmly in the camp that the Prince of all three Saiyans is taking an L.

----------


## Iamyourking

As is Vegeta's. Obviously neither is even remotely indicative of their capabilities, but Thor's was more impressive.

----------


## HolyDraconus

> As is Vegeta's. Obviously neither is even remotely indicative of their capabilities, but Thor's was more impressive.


Thor just got that Hammer. :Small Cool:

----------


## McNum

Thor vs. Vegeta is up on Youtube.

*Spoiler: This time*
Show

You know, when they put out the numbers like that it is kind of lopsided. On the other hand, it amuses me greatly that Thor and Vegeta's strengths were not measured in TNT, but in the amount of universes they could blow up.

Poor Geets. He keeps increasing in weight class, only to run into bigger fishes. Or gods.


*Spoiler: Next time*
Show

I have heard of these, but I know little of either. Omni-man vs. Homelander. Hm, at least they had the decency to use original characters for Evil Superman.

----------


## HolyDraconus

> Thor vs. Vegeta is up on Youtube.
> 
> *Spoiler: This time*
> Show
> 
> You know, when they put out the numbers like that it is kind of lopsided. On the other hand, it amuses me greatly that Thor and Vegeta's strengths were not measured in TNT, but in the amount of universes they could blow up.
> 
> Poor Geets. He keeps increasing in weight class, only to run into bigger fishes. Or gods.


*Spoiler*
Show

Its amusing indeed. They did admit that Geets' new form was more or less a non factor since he has no feats with it: the first showing of it he did still lose that fight.




> *Spoiler: Next time*
> Show
> 
> I have heard of these, but I know little of either. Omni-man vs. Homelander. Hm, at least they had the decency to use original characters for Evil Superman.


*Spoiler*
Show

This one is tricky. It appears on paper that its close but it depends on the source used. Homelander DOES have the range option and most of Superman's kit, but last I checked Omniman's top end strength feats eclipse's Homelander. Experience wise, Omniman also has the nod here since as a (INSERT SPECIAL RACE NAME HERE) he can live fundamentally forever unless killed, and our first introduction to him has him being around for centuries at least. Compare the fact that as Omni man ages he gets stronger to Homelander thats... a freaking bully of a big baby, to put it mildly, and I THINK this fight is over. It may still be close, but I think Omniman has this hands down. AGAIN, depending on which version used. TV version, then he loses. He still has experience but he's toned down a bit and gets wrecked pretty handily repeatedly, while Homelander hasn't actually gotten his ass kicked yet.

----------


## Traab

*Spoiler: This time*
Show

 Its scary that they admitted to not even going full power with thor and he still won. I honestly thought the strength number would go the other way with the dragonball universe being larger and all the multipliers and such. But in the end, thor was just too fast strong and had the counter to all vegetas best moves 


*Spoiler: Next time*
Show

Im pretty sure omniman has this. Even in the anime he literally wiped out an entire advanced alien civilization and has a ludicrous experience edge. Homelander has laser vision yeah, but its not something that compares to this which he tanked TWICE for a nosebleed. Pretty sure homelander is going to look like mark just before it ends.

----------


## Iamyourking

Next time:
*Spoiler*
Show

This is a well known debate, and the consensus is Omni-Man wins easily. Him and two equally powerful Viltrumites were able to destroy an entire planet, which is far superior to anything Homelander has ever done. It's unfortunate for Omni-Man that he can't really get a good matchup, since his other popular opponent is Bardock-who stomps him just as hard as he stomps Homelander.

----------


## Rynjin

It doesn't really matter what version of the characters they use, Homelander has nothing that even vaguely matches Omni-Man's feats.

(Omni-man also handily beats Bardock for that matter, unless we're talking about the dumb ****ing Super Saiyan 3 Bardock memes they keep adding into video games and DB Heroes. He has a power level roughly half of Saiyan Saga Vegeta at his peak, and is incapable of the same level of speed feats as Omni-man if nothing else. )

----------


## HolyDraconus

> It doesn't really matter what version of the characters they use, Homelander has nothing that even vaguely matches Omni-Man's feats.
> 
> (Omni-man also handily beats Bardock for that matter, unless we're talking about the dumb ****ing Super Saiyan 3 Bardock memes they keep adding into video games and DB Heroes. He has a power level roughly half of Saiyan Saga Vegeta at his peak, and is incapable of the same level of speed feats as Omni-man if nothing else. )


Bardock stomps Omni man actually. Omni's best feat is being one of 3 people that blew up a planet together. Bardock scales to at worst Nappa, and at best, depending on which movie you watch, King Vegeta, who casually blew up 3 of them solo. And that's before tacking on, again depending on which movie you watch, him attaining super saiyan. Going by the current manga, Bardock actually reaches higher than that since Gas lost to Bardock, and Gas was flat out said to scale to Freeza (most likely first form but still) way back then.

----------


## Rynjin

> Bardock stomps Omni man actually. Omni's best feat is being one of 3 people that blew up a planet together. Bardock scales to at worst Nappa, and at best, depending on which movie you watch, King Vegeta, who casually blew up 3 of them solo. And that's before tacking on, again depending on which movie you watch, him attaining super saiyan. Going by the current manga, Bardock actually reaches higher than that since Gas lost to Bardock, and Gas was flat out said to scale to Freeza (most likely first form but still) way back then.


Genuinely, I haven't seen anything from Bardock that matches the "fly so fast it ignites the atmosphere and kills millions" feat Omni-man has.

Sure, Bardock scales to Nappa; he's actually a little bit stronger than him by the time he fights Frieza and dies. Nappa's biggest feat is blowing up a single city. Impressive, by some standards, but not by the scale of the character we're pitting him against. And I'm just drawing from the first season of the Invincible show, I haven't read the comic where apparently Omni-man is significantly stronger according to some people in this thread.

At least, by the Bardock I know. Everything that's happened with him since Dragonball Minus, I have no clue. They just keep retconning in more dumb **** and I checked out of it after a while.

But even then, based on the info I can find, Gas does not "scale to Frieza". He was "the weakest" of his siblings, but considered someone who could ONE DAY SURPASS Frieza if he trained enough. There's a pretty big caveat there even if we take it as strict fact (and given everybody and their grandmother in pre-Dragon Ball backstory material claimed they could one day beat Frieza, including Bardock himself, and they ALL turned out to be dead wrong even when it came to matching against their first form, it should be taken with a huuuuuuuuuuuuge grain of salt).

----------


## Iamyourking

There's five levels you can put Bardock at.
If you count Xenoverse, then he's a Super-level character who can resist multiverse erasure.
If you count his fight with Chill but not Xenoverse, then he has a Power Level of 500,000-only slightly weaker than First Form Frieza.
If you don't count that, then he's as strong as King Vegeta-who, as mentioned, can casually destroy three planets at once if you count anime filler.
If you want to go purely with primary material, he's a little over half as strong as Saiyan Saga Vegeta-who was going to destroy the planet with his Galick Gun. Slightly over half a planet is better than Omni-Man's slightly under a third of a planet, and that assumes that Vegeta was only just barely strong enough to destroy the planet.
The absolute lowest level, scaling him ahead of Nappa, still puts him at significantly stronger than a person who stomped the Moon-busting Piccolo. Omni-Man can actually win here, but it's a huge lowball of Bardock's capabilities.

Omni-Man does have advantages over Bardock, but they're pretty much entirely in travel speed and experience. Bardock has superior power, a ranged attack, and the famous Saiyan ability to get even stronger as he fights. It's also a moot point, because putting him up against Homelander guarantees he'll never fight Bardock.

----------


## Rater202

> At least, by the Bardock I know. Everything that's happened with him since Dragonball Minus, I have no clue. They just keep retconning in more dumb **** and I checked out of it after a while.


Okay, here's a bandaid that needs to be ripped off.
_
Bardock the Father of Goku_... Is not canon. It was _never_ canon. It was never _intended_ to be canon. It's basically just an extra-long filler episode.

Toriyama was not involved in its creation beyond the very minor extent he was with the anime in-general at the time.

Toriyama liked it, enough to make Bardock Goku's canonical father, but was quite explicit in an interview that it's not the kind of story he'd write and isn't the canonical backstory.

So, *by defitnion* Bardock has not been retconned, because the only thing canonical facts about him prior to Dragon Ball Minus were 1: His name was Bardock, 2: He looks exactly like Goku and 3: He had a confrontation with Frieza shortly before Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta that was memorable enough for Frieza to recall it twenty-plus years later.

Beyond that... Bardock from Dragon Ball Minus onward is basically the same character as the non-canonical version. Ruthless space pirate/soldier working for Frieza, he's considered "good" by saiyan standards, which basically means that he cares bout the well-being of his friends and family that's more or less it. Was Loyal to Frieza up until he got an inkling that Freiza was planning to kill the Saiyans.

----------


## Rynjin

> If you want to go purely with primary material, he's a little over half as strong as Saiyan Saga Vegeta-who was going to destroy the planet with his Galick Gun. Slightly over half a planet is better than Omni-Man's slightly under a third of a planet, and that assumes that Vegeta was only just barely strong enough to destroy the planet.
> The absolute lowest level, scaling him ahead of Nappa, still puts him at significantly stronger than a person who stomped the Moon-busting Piccolo. Omni-Man can actually win here, but it's a huge lowball of Bardock's capabilities.


I actually overestimated Nappa. I thought he was at 8k, but he's only 4. My b.




> Omni-Man does have advantages over Bardock, but they're pretty much entirely in travel speed and experience. Bardock has superior power, a ranged attack, and the famous Saiyan ability to get even stronger as he fights. It's also a moot point, because putting him up against Homelander guarantees he'll never fight Bardock.


I genuinely am not sure why Homelander (the man whose stronger clone was killed by some dude with a _crowbar_) is getting so much credit in this matchup. Admittedly, this dude has low level super strength, but it's roughly Captain America/Deathstroke level, not anywhere near what Omni-man or even Homelander display.

----------


## Traab

Oh and, isnt a new season of The Boys coming out soon? Gee, i wonder why homelander gets the next fight?

----------


## HolyDraconus

> Genuinely, I haven't seen anything from Bardock that matches the "fly so fast it ignites the atmosphere and kills millions" feat Omni-man has.
> 
> Sure, Bardock scales to Nappa; he's actually a little bit stronger than him by the time he fights Frieza and dies. Nappa's biggest feat is blowing up a single city. Impressive, by some standards, but not by the scale of the character we're pitting him against. And I'm just drawing from the first season of the Invincible show, I haven't read the comic where apparently Omni-man is significantly stronger according to some people in this thread.
> 
> At least, by the Bardock I know. Everything that's happened with him since Dragonball Minus, I have no clue. They just keep retconning in more dumb **** and I checked out of it after a while.
> 
> But even then, based on the info I can find, Gas does not "scale to Frieza". He was "the weakest" of his siblings, but considered someone who could ONE DAY SURPASS Frieza if he trained enough. There's a pretty big caveat there even if we take it as strict fact (and given everybody and their grandmother in pre-Dragon Ball backstory material claimed they could one day beat Frieza, including Bardock himself, and they ALL turned out to be dead wrong even when it came to matching against their first form, it should be taken with a huuuuuuuuuuuuge grain of salt).


In Bardock's special he was claimed to have a power of nearly 10k. Which is just a bit more than half a  Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga. Who blew up a planet. Going by the movies, Broly had a power of 10k as well... and blew up a planet. Vegeta stated himself on Namek that he was stronger than King Vegeta back when the Prince had a power of 18k... and the King casually blew up 3 planets.

 Bardock just has more damage output than Omniman can handle.

----------


## Delicious Taffy

If Saiyan's blowing up planets is basically their early-seasons trademark for power, I'm a little curious what'd happen if one of them (at early-seasons level) fought a living planet like Ego or that one Green Lantern. It's a little unfair if the planet can't fight back, is all.

----------


## HolyDraconus

> If Saiyan's blowing up planets is basically their early-seasons trademark for power, I'm a little curious what'd happen if one of them (at early-seasons level) fought a living planet like Ego or that one Green Lantern. It's a little unfair if the planet can't fight back, is all.


You are my hero for moments like these. I wish I can plus this. Lol

----------


## Rynjin

> If Saiyan's blowing up planets is basically their early-seasons trademark for power


A bit of a point of order, planet busting is by no means a hallmark of "early seasons". The first true planet buster is Vegeta, in the Saiyan Saga. While this is the first season of the anime most people were introduced to the series with (Dragon Ball Z), it actually starts after ~200 chapters of the manga and a 153 episode anime series that just didn't get exported to the West until after Z had aired.

Vegeta shows up around the halfway point of the series.




> I'm a little curious what'd happen if one of them (at early-seasons level) fought a living planet like Ego or that one Green Lantern. It's a little unfair if the planet can't fight back, is all.


Regardless, this would be pretty fun to see.




> In Bardock's special he was claimed to have a power of nearly 10k. Which is just a bit more than half a  Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga. Who blew up a planet. Going by the movies, Broly had a power of 10k as well... and blew up a planet. Vegeta stated himself on Namek that he was stronger than King Vegeta back when the Prince had a power of 18k... and the King casually blew up 3 planets.
> 
>  Bardock just has more damage output than Omniman can handle.


Sussing out the canonicity of a lot of this stuff is a headache. A quick breakdown: original recipe Broly is as non-canon as original Bardock, and  all of King Vegeta's exploits are as well (his first CANON APPEARANCE as a character is getting humiliated by Beerus in the Super manga), as well as any onscreen planets destroyed by Vegeta ("Terror on Arlia", which I think is the event you were referring to, is anime only).

But I'm pretty sure that 10k power level figure is still pretty accurate. 

This makes Bardock about half as powerful as Vegeta, as I did say, and Vegeta is PROBABLY a planet buster in the Saiyan Saga since he doesn't appear to be bluffing when he says he'll destroy Earth.

So we can safely say Bardock is at best "half of a planet buster". Omni-man is, at worst, a "third of a planet buster", but potentially stronger, who knows.

I just don't think these things are so far apart that it's supposed to be a stomp for Bardock.

But Bardock would definitely demolish Homelander, just like Omni-man does.

----------


## Callos_DeTerran

> I just don't think these things are so far apart that it's supposed to be a stomp for Bardock.
> 
> But Bardock would definitely demolish Homelander, just like Omni-man does.


Saiyans (and other DBZ characters) can bust planets because they learned how to control and project energy. Which admittedly is a skill that Omni-man lacks. What he doesn't is sheer, raw brute force on a level that you don't see in DBZ for a VERY long time. Or speed. Like, fighting Bardock would by no means be a stomp for Bardock cause if we're going by silly feats, Viltrimites can (if old and thus powerful enough) survive on the sun long enough to have fist fights. That is something no DBZ Saiyan is capable of doing. Or, push comes to shove, Omniman could just yeet Bardock into space...I'd say that's out of character for Omniman, but he actually calls it out as an explicit tactic to use against a strong enemy. Just throw them into space and Omniman is certainly strong enough to do that.

As for Homelander? Yeah, only seen the show but Homelander is NOT that impressive a super hero. He can fly, he's strong (but its never really seen HOW strong), and he's got heat vision. Which sure, is more then the other super heroes around him, but in the Invincible-verse? That's your average super villain. Combined with Omni-man's far superior experience both in general but also explicitly at fighting other beings as strong as he is and devastatingly powerful speed and power? DB is going to have to pull out some stupid as hell explanation for Homelander's heat vision even being able to hurt Omni-man for this to even be a fight.

----------


## awa

we dont know exactly how strong home lander is (tv version) but we know its not  strong enough to keep a plane in the air. So strong but not that strong combined that he has never fought a near peer and has significant mental weakness he is a really weak superman analogue. Hes dangerous within his own world become its a very low power world and hes a big fish in that small pond.

I have heard comic home-lander is weaker than tv home-lander and comic omni man is stronger than tv omni man assuming that's true I dont see how this can be anything but completely one sided. The scale they operate at and the threats they face are simply different.

----------


## Tyndmyr

> we dont know exactly how strong home lander is (tv version) but we know its not  strong enough to keep a plane in the air.


To be pedantic, that's more a realistic physics thing than it is anything else. He absolutely is strong enough, but the plane just isn't constructed for that. He'd tear right through it, it's not really a weightlifting scenario. 




> So strong but not that strong combined that he has never fought a near peer and has significant mental weakness he is a really weak superman analogue. Hes dangerous within his own world become its a very low power world and hes a big fish in that small pond.
> 
> I have heard comic home-lander is weaker than tv home-lander and comic omni man is stronger than tv omni man assuming that's true I dont see how this can be anything but completely one sided. The scale they operate at and the threats they face are simply different.


Eh, both comic and TV homelander are pretty darned powerful. However, omni man is on an entirely different scale, yes. Homelander could absolutely murder his way through a crowd of people. Omni-man genocides an entire planet and is home for dinner. This isn't the season finale or anything, it's like...episode three. 

It's not even just a power thing...Homelander can tank a nuke, which is superman tier, but Omni-man has been acting as a one man army for decades. Facing a near god-tier opponent is tuesday for him. 

Saitama would flatten both, though.

----------


## awa

> It's not even just a power thing...Homelander can tank a nuke,


I haven't read the comics does he get nuked in them? I dont recall him getting hit with anything a fraction of that power in the tv show, and I was led to believe he was weaker in the comics.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> I haven't read the comics does he get nuked in them? I dont recall him getting hit with anything a fraction of that power in the tv show, and I was led to believe he was weaker in the comics.


No. Vought kept him chained to one when he was young, but it's never used.

*Spoiler: Boys comic ending spoilers*
Show

Black Noir, who is a clone of Homelander in the comics, stood up to massed small arms and tank fire but he wasn't having a nice time, and Butcher was eventually able to crack his skull open with a crowbar. (In the comics the Boys are superpowered)

----------


## Tyndmyr

> I haven't read the comics does he get nuked in them? I dont recall him getting hit with anything a fraction of that power in the tv show, and I was led to believe he was weaker in the comics.


It was covered in the TV show, at a young age he was tied to a nuclear bomb as their hail mary solution. By the main time of the show, they have abandoned the idea that this will work, saying that no weapon can hurt them. It isn't specified how precisely that was learned, but since they had already addressed the nuclear idea, Vought most certainly isn't overlooking that as an option.

Comics are...odd. The author has a lot of hatred for supes, and that tends to overwelm everything else. A ridiculous amount of supes end up dying in a fairly unimpressive way, being stomped to death or whatever. It's...probably one of the few works where the written version is clearly less good than the show. However, the comics achieve this via the Boys chugging the blue compound, becoming temporarily superpowered themselves, so power level is...highly variable thanks to plot. 

Homelander is, however, never primarily fought by them directly. He gets taken out by a clone, so...that doesn't really tell us much. Clones are generally pretty similar in power level to the original. So, a clone fight doesn't mean that someone's inherently weak. Hell, superman has had many of those. In the comics, Homelander is portrayed as approximately Superman tier, though he lacks some of the more space-tier feats of Superman, since it's an earth based story.

----------


## awa

> Comics are...odd. The author has a lot of hatred for supes, and that tends to overwelm everything else. A ridiculous amount of supes end up dying in a fairly unimpressive way, being stomped to death or whatever. It's...probably one of the few works where the written version is clearly less good than the show.


Yeah I glanced at the comic once just paged through it and it just felt mean spirited. I like the show I dont mind people poking fun at superheroes or anything but it needs to come from a place of love or at least not contempt.

----------


## Anteros

"Tanking a nuke" is such a vague metric for these types of things.  There's so much there we don't know.  How powerful was the nuke?  Are we talking about a direct hit, or just being in the area?  

I will say that in the Invincible comics people on Omni-man's level are shown to be burnt and even killed by the heat at the surface of the sun.  The core of a nuclear blast is hotter than that.  So if Homelander can indeed tank the core of a nuclear explosion without injury, his durability to heat may be higher than Omni-man's.  

I have no opinion on the match-up.  Just throwing out info.

----------


## awa

> "Tanking a nuke" is such a vague metric for these types of things.  There's so much there we don't know.  How powerful was the nuke?  Are we talking about a direct hit, or just being in the area?  
> 
> I will say that in the Invincible comics people on Omni-man's level are shown to be burnt and even killed by the heat at the surface of the sun.  The core of a nuclear blast is hotter than that.  So if Homelander can indeed tank the core of a nuclear explosion without injury, his durability to heat may be higher than Omni-man's.  
> 
> I have no opinion on the match-up.  Just throwing out info.


Yes but how long is a nuclear blast at that temperature? Also isn't the corona of the sun even hotter? and you need to go through that to get to the surface.

----------


## Anteros

> Yes but how long is a nuclear blast at that temperature? Also isn't the corona of the sun even hotter? and you need to go through that to get to the surface.


True, although the comic depicts them being unharmed at that point of course.  I kinda hate "analyzing" stuff like this because it's incredibly clear the author had no idea what they were actually writing.  That's why I'm always such a big advocate of taking characters as they're generally presented rather than considering outlier feats like Death Battle does.

----------


## Tyndmyr

> Yeah I glanced at the comic once just paged through it and it just felt mean spirited. I like the show I dont mind people poking fun at superheroes or anything but it needs to come from a place of love or at least not contempt.


Yeah, I tried to read the whole run and just...didn't care for it much. Very crude, very mean spirited. I don't mind dark humor in the slightest, and find the show to be great, but it's a very different work. 




> "Tanking a nuke" is such a vague metric for these types of things.  There's so much there we don't know.  How powerful was the nuke?  Are we talking about a direct hit, or just being in the area?


No context, really, so we can't say with much certainty. Comics, yknow? 

Roughly the only thing we've seen affect him in the show is dropping a train and a lot of rocks on him. This didn't hurt Homelander, but it did move him. Therefore, he should also be thrown around by nuclear blasts or super powered punches of Omni-man, etc. That's the hardest info we have. We can theorize that *something* will almost surely kill him, thanks to the nature of the show and his role in it, but pinning actual numbers to it is quite hard. 




> I will say that in the Invincible comics people on Omni-man's level are shown to be burnt and even killed by the heat at the surface of the sun.  The core of a nuclear blast is hotter than that.  So if Homelander can indeed tank the core of a nuclear explosion without injury, his durability to heat may be higher than Omni-man's.


That's possible. We can be fairly certain that Homelander's heat vision is insufficient, though. It's potent, but the sat beam Omni-man tanks in the comics definitely seems to be a great deal more impactful, and it does very little to him. *shrug*

----------


## awa

> True, although the comic depicts them being unharmed at that point of course.  I kinda hate "analyzing" stuff like this because it's incredibly clear the author had no idea what they were actually writing.  That's why I'm always such a big advocate of taking characters as they're generally presented rather than considering outlier feats like Death Battle does.


I very much agree, I'm also not a fan of confusing travel speed and combat speed




> Yeah, I tried to read the whole run and just...didn't care for it much. Very crude, very mean spirited. I don't mind dark humor in the slightest, and find the show to be great, but it's a very different work. 
> 
> Roughly the only thing we've seen affect him in the show is dropping a train and a lot of rocks on him. This didn't hurt Homelander, but it did move him. Therefore, he should also be thrown around by nuclear blasts or super powered punches of Omni-man, etc. That's the hardest info we have. We can theorize that *something* will almost surely kill him, thanks to the nature of the show and his role in it, but pinning actual numbers to it is quite hard.


that's actually a good comparison because we know a train doesn't even phase omni man

edit now that I think about it while i Stand by the end result the train impacts were sufficiently different that its not a very good comparison.

----------


## HolyDraconus

> Sussing out the canonicity of a lot of this stuff is a headache.


Canon doesn't mean a whole lot when it comes to Death Battle. 


Anywho, blerbs are up as well a teaser vid for the upcoming fight. Homelander hasn't shown his full strength and is a more grounded character, which is usually a death sentence in matches like these.

----------


## Anteros

Honestly, this match just seems like another Flash vs Quicksilver.  It's obvious right on the tin who should win.  That said...Death Battle doesn't always get it right even when it should be obvious.

----------


## Iamyourking

In general, despite their claims, their matches are rarely especially close. At most you get "Character X is far superior in Metrics A and B, Character Y is far superior in Metrics C and D" and they decide which should take priority, but most of the time it's "X and Y appear fairly close at a surface level, but once you actually look into their feats one is obviously far superior".

----------


## Anteros

> In general, despite their claims, their matches are rarely especially close. At most you get "Character X is far superior in Metrics A and B, Character Y is far superior in Metrics C and D" and they decide which should take priority, but most of the time it's "X and Y appear fairly close at a surface level, but once you actually look into their feats one is obviously far superior".


Sure, but I don't think this one is even close on a surface level.  One guy is busting planets and flying faster than light.  The other guy can't pick up a plane, and isn't fast enough to evacuate it either.

----------


## Iamyourking

Even then, those are hardly unheard of. Last year alone, Yoda vs. Mickey, Goku Black vs. Reverse Flash, Korra vs. Storm, and Saitama vs. Popeye were comparably obvious mismatches; and I don't think any fight has ever been as obvious as Quicksilver vs. Flash. They have always been looking for ability to attract viewers first, thematic appropriateness second, and fairness a very distant third.

----------


## HolyDraconus

> The other guy can't pick up a plane, and isn't fast enough to evacuate it either.


Its debatable if he could move fast enough to evacuate everyone: he's a prick that doesn't really care about human life, and he didn't attempt it on that basis. And its been shown that he can most definitely pick up a plane, its just that a plane isn't designed for that and would fall apart. He doesn't have Superman's tactile webbing bs that let's him do such things.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Sure, but I don't think this one is even close on a surface level.  One guy is busting planets and flying faster than light.  The other guy can't pick up a plane, and isn't fast enough to evacuate it either.


The Boys is not a universe where you can pick up a plane or move fast enough to evacuate it. It's a universe where if you hold on to a part of someone and try to move fast the part you're holding comes with you and the rest doesn't, and if you try to hold a plane up the bit you're holding gets shredded by the force of the rest of it still trying to fall.

And yeah, it's not a particularly high-power universe by superhero standards, because its superheroes are inflated by corporate marketing with many of the things they are alleged in-universe to have done being completely fabricated (that's the point of Herogasm, the PR is that they're off having some big space crisis battle not just an orgy on a private island).

(And in the comics the supes are a metaphor for the power and lack of accountability of corporations).

----------


## Traab

I love that this has become a meme on youtube. There are like a dozen videos of the fight "preview" of the battle, they all end about the same way. "Im going to feed you your own heart."

----------


## HolyDraconus

The winner is *Spoiler*
Show

 you already know who the winner is. It was a stomp. Herogasm isnt enough. 


 Next time
*Spoiler*
Show

 magneto from X-men vs tetsuo???

----------


## Iamyourking

*Spoiler*
Show

Tetsuo was already known from the preview last year. It's disappointing they went with yet another Marvel character instead of Mewtwo though, given that Star Lord has a reasonable chance of being Boba Fett's opponent and I have a theory that the mid-season finale will feature Captain America. Why? Because it's airing on the 4th of July. At least I'm 5/5 so far with predicting the match-ups.

----------


## Rynjin

So, obvious stomp follows obvious stomp. *Yawn*

----------


## awa

I only saw the movie not the manga but it seems like magneto would not even death battle shenanigans or cherry picked feats, Tetsuo just isn't that powerful and has very little control and once he starts incorporating metal into his body hes done.

Including all the dumb garbage that a character who has existed as long as magneto will have picked up this feels like a joke. At least home lander vs omni man had a very good thematic match up, whats the magneto Tetsuo logic?

----------


## Iamyourking

I guess "Mutants who led a rebellion against society and manipulate metal at some point"?

----------


## hungrycrow

*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

So Tetsuo is mostly significantly weaker than the comic book feats Magneto has access too, but doesn't he like restart the universe at the end or something? How would that translate to a Death Battle?

----------


## Rynjin

> *Spoiler: Next Time*
> Show
> 
> So Tetsuo is mostly significantly weaker than the comic book feats Magneto has access too, but doesn't he like restart the universe at the end or something? How would that translate to a Death Battle?


*Spoiler*
Show

I'm fairly certain it's the titular "character" (more plot device) Akira that does that.

----------


## Lemmy

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> I'm fairly certain it's the titular "character" (more plot device) Akira that does that.


TBF... Canonically, end-book Tetsuo is as powerful as Akira (but didn't know it), so DB could pull some transitive shenanigans.

----------


## HolyDraconus

> TBF... Canonically, end-book Tetsuo is as powerful as Akira (but didn't know it), so DB could pull some transitive shenanigans.


They can also used the same logic they did for Alucard and say that he wasn't cause of story reasons so they can't give it to him.

----------


## Iamyourking

I also don't think it would hugely matter. Magneto undoubtedly has his own transitive shenanigans via scaling to Marvel's various cosmic entities.

----------


## Rater202

Kitty Pryde spent several years trapped in a metal bullet that she couldn't phase through that was shot into space, only surviving because in her phased state he doesn't need food, water, or air.

Magneto rescued her by feeling out for adn grabbing the bullet, which was several lifght years away at this point, and pulling it back o earth at FTL speeds.

Not only is he an OMega LEvel Mutant, he's the strongest omega. Every mutant who beats him out in raw power is either a Beyond Oemga or Manifold(who really should be considered an Omega or Beyond Omega but isn't because of a technicality. Tough he personally doens't give a damn.)

----------


## SKarious

I don't know where Tetsuo's from, but he looks human.
So, can Magneto just bloodbend him for an instakill?

----------


## Iamyourking

> I don't know where Tetsuo's from, but he looks human.
> So, can Magneto just bloodbend him for an instakill?


Probably, but it's contingent on how good of a defense a telekinetic barrier is against said bloodbending. Obviously there's a significant difference in raw power, but a good place to start would be to see if he's ever tried it against Jean Grey.

----------


## Rynjin

> I don't know where Tetsuo's from, but he looks human.


Tetsuo is one of the primary characters of Akira, one of the most visually influential works of fiction of all time. Not as in "this influenced a lot of other anime", but in terms of all visual media both in Japan and the west. The Matrix, for example, might not exist without Akira (and Ghost in the Shell, even more so).

He has psychic abilities of a relatively undefined scope and power. He kind of has the "do anything" package of psychic powers (though primarily telekinesis), but the effectiveness of any given thing he does varies over the course of the series as he gets a grip on what he can do.

----------


## TeChameleon

Re. Magneto bloodbending, while he can do that, it's... not something he makes a habit of.  Oddly, the only canonical reference I can think of to that (although I'm about 99.9% certain there are others, because it's a nifty trick and writers love pulling those out), he was using it to... mind... control... the Avengers?  It was kind of a weird story.  Even by comic book standards.

Not that familiar with Akira- fairly certain I watched/read it at some point, but my memory of it is fuzzy at best- but Magneto has some utterly bizarre outlier feats, mostly because his powers are physics-based and English majors don't tend to have the firmest grasp on that.  The aforementioned city-sized-FTL-bullet-catch, wormholes, mind-control-via-magnetizing-blood-in-the-brain... anything that the writers could justify as being vaguely related to electromagnetism, he's probably done.  He's also apparently powerfully telepathic (just because?) and a technological supergenius, with AI, an orbital base, and a handful of other techno-oddities to his credit.

Honestly not sure how much of a chance Tetsuo has on this one, vaguely-defined psychic powers or not.  Magneto's been fighting vaguely-defined psychic powers for the majority of his (quite long) adult life, and if Professor X, the White Queen, the Shadow King, Cable, Nate Grey, the Overseer, Cassandra Nova, Mastermind, Mr Sinister, Apocalypse, Kid Omega, and/or Jean Grey (Legion and Franklin Richards are the only two psychic-types I can think of that could probably put Magneto down without much trouble) can't cark 'im, Tetsuo doesn't seem a likely candidate either.

----------


## HolyDraconus

> Re. Magneto bloodbending, while he can do that, it's... not something he makes a habit of.  Oddly, the only canonical reference I can think of to that (although I'm about 99.9% certain there are others, because it's a nifty trick and writers love pulling those out), he was using it to... mind... control... the Avengers?  It was kind of a weird story.  Even by comic book standards.
> 
> Not that familiar with Akira- fairly certain I watched/read it at some point, but my memory of it is fuzzy at best- but Magneto has some utterly bizarre outlier feats, mostly because his powers are physics-based and English majors don't tend to have the firmest grasp on that.  The aforementioned city-sized-FTL-bullet-catch, wormholes, mind-control-via-magnetizing-blood-in-the-brain... anything that the writers could justify as being vaguely related to electromagnetism, he's probably done.  He's also apparently powerfully telepathic (just because?) and a technological supergenius, with AI, an orbital base, and a handful of other techno-oddities to his credit.
> 
> Honestly not sure how much of a chance Tetsuo has on this one, vaguely-defined psychic powers or not.  Magneto's been fighting vaguely-defined psychic powers for the majority of his (quite long) adult life, and if Professor X, the White Queen, the Shadow King, Cable, Nate Grey, the Overseer, Cassandra Nova, Mastermind, Mr Sinister, Apocalypse, Kid Omega, and/or Jean Grey (Legion and Franklin Richards are the only two psychic-types I can think of that could probably put Magneto down without much trouble) can't cark 'im, Tetsuo doesn't seem a likely candidate either.


Its been a LONG time since I seen Akira, but from memory I believe that Tetsuos go to opener is exploding heads, and his end of arc power was transcending to another plane/ becoming a god/ blowing up a universe or some such thing. The master of magnets has more feats to draw from, but there is at least a case to be made that Tetsuo is Franklin level. 


Personally, Im going to chalk this matchup to whoever will generate more salt on a loss and say Tetsuo will win.

----------


## Lemmy

> They can also used the same logic they did for Alucard and say that he wasn't cause of story reasons so they can't give it to him.


Well, expecting consistency (or impartiality) from DB is a lost cause, so I wouldn't put anything past them.




> Kitty Pryde spent several years trapped in a metal bullet that she couldn't phase through that was shot into space, only surviving because in her phased state he doesn't need food, water, or air.
> 
> Magneto rescued her by feeling out for adn grabbing the bullet, which was several lifght years away at this point, and pulling it back o earth at FTL speeds.
> 
> Not only is he an OMega LEvel Mutant, he's the strongest omega. Every mutant who beats him out in raw power is either a Beyond Oemga or Manifold(who really should be considered an Omega or Beyond Omega but isn't because of a technicality. Tough he personally doens't give a damn.)


IIRC, it's not that she couldn't phase through it... She just stayed with the bullet to keep the whole thing phased in order to stop it from destroying any planets... There's actually a pretty cool story about a whole civilization preparing for the impact with the giant bullet... And then it just passes through their planet.

But anyway... You're right about what Magneto did. 

Perhaps even more impressive, he once opened a freaking wormhole just because he was in that much of a hurry to go save his daughter.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Perhaps even more impressive, he once opened a freaking wormhole just because he was in that much of a hurry to go save his daughter.


I was going to stay out of this, but yeah, that's just utterly ridiculous. Tetsuto _may_ have done something on a similar scale, but I think when it comes to feats of scale certainly will triumph.

Although to be fair pulling a bullet at FTL speeds would require roughly infinite force by my understanding, so in Death Battle logic Magneto is already immune to all harm.

So I'm looking forward to them explaining how Tetsuto is more stacks of TNT when he creates a universe than Magneto is when he rips apart a Skrill or whatever they pick.

----------


## Dragonus45

So it's been longer then I would like to admit it has been since I read Akira in highscool, but I want to say that Tetsuo wasn't the one who actually created a brand new universe. That was Akira, he might have needed an assist from the other espers to make it work as well? I do remember that Tetsuo was gaining power and expanding so rapidly it would take literally just a new empty universe to contain him and he may or may not have literally been the "big bang" in that new world. I am now curious how much TNT was used in the Big Bang.

----------


## Lemmy

> Although to be fair pulling a bullet at FTL speeds would require roughly infinite force by my understanding, so in Death Battle logic Magneto is already immune to all harm.


Well, TBF, space is really small in comic books... It's supposed to be as big as IRL, but anyone and anything with even moderate flight speeds can travel to other planets in a matter of minutes and to other galaxies in a matter of hours... Because a story based in space would be kind boring if it were "and then... Green Lantern spent 900 years travelling in a straight line at the speed of light just to get from Oa back to Earth".

----------


## awa

> Well, TBF, space is really small in comic books... It's supposed to be as big as IRL, but anyone and anything with even moderate flight speeds can travel to other planets in a matter of minutes and to other galaxies in a matter of hours... Because a story based in space would be kind boring if it were "and then... Green Lantern spent 900 years travelling in a straight line at the speed of light just to get from Oa back to Earth".


Yes but death battle takes all these errors of understanding and basis their physics on them to get some of their dumbest figures. So that will only help magneto.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Well, TBF, space is really small in comic books... It's supposed to be as big as IRL, but anyone and anything with even moderate flight speeds can travel to other planets in a matter of minutes and to other galaxies in a matter of hours... Because a story based in space would be kind boring if it were "and then... Green Lantern spent 900 years travelling in a straight line at the speed of light just to get from Oa back to Earth".


This is the same show that took 'superman lifted infinity' seriously. The best Tetsuto can hope for is them somehow missing this feat.

Which means I want to see another Marvel Vs DC one with them using that logic.

----------


## Lemmy

> Yes but death battle takes all these errors of understanding and basis their physics on them to get some of their dumbest figures. So that will only help magneto.





> This is the same show that took 'superman lifted infinity' seriously. The best Tetsuto can hope for is them somehow missing this feat.
> 
> Which means I want to see another Marvel Vs DC one with them using that logic.


I know, I know... I did say "To be fair", which already makes my statement incompatible with DB's "logic". It'd be like saying "Being realistic" in a discussion about a Tom & Jerry cartoon.

----------


## Iamyourking

Now that First Members have seen the fight, the next one has been leaked; and it's possibly an even bigger curveball than Saitama vs. Popeye.
*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

Herakles vs. Sun Wukong. The mythological figures.
 This is going to be weird.
*Spoiler*
Show

I think Wukong has better immediately quantifiable feats, since he's immortal in multiple different ways, can jump across the universe, and his Gold-Banded-Staff has a specifically defined weight; while Herakles' best feat is holding up the sky. Which I was going to say doesn't have a defined weight, but they'll probably just take the combined mass of the Earth's atmosphere. Where Herakles might have an edge is via scaling, if they argue that he is capable of any feat of strength performed by any other Olympian such as Zeus dropping Mount Etna on Typhon. That may actually be the magic bullet they need to give the win to Herakles, since Wukong can explicitly be incapacitated by dropping a mountain on him. It also kind of depends on what they consider to be a primary source. Wukong is easy enough, since they can just use the original text of Journey to the West, but Herakles doesn't really have anything like that.


As for the half-season finale:
*Spoiler*
Show

At least this increases the odds that Fett will be fighting the Predator, because Star Lord could work for a regular episode but isn't appealing enough for a major one like that.

----------


## McNum

> Now that First Members have seen the fight, the next one has been leaked; and it's possibly an even bigger curveball than Saitama vs. Popeye.
> *Spoiler: Next Time*
> Show
> 
> Herakles vs. Sun Wukong. The mythological figures.
>  This is going to be weird.
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> ...


So next time...
*Spoiler*
Show

Superman vs. Goku III: This time, it's Mythological!

I kid, but at the same time, Goku is clearly based on Sun Wukong, but I'm not entirely sure if Superman is based on Hercules, though they are from the same archetype, at least.

----------


## HolyDraconus

> They can also used the same logic they did for Alucard and say that he wasn't cause of story reasons so they can't give it to him.





> Well, expecting consistency (or impartiality) from DB is a lost cause, so I wouldn't put anything past them.


*Spoiler: This Time on Death Battle*
Show

They did exactly that. One source says he did, another says he didn't, so he didn't. I'm surprised they didn't go for the salt mine but eh, it was fairly in Magnus' favor without it.




> Now that First Members have seen the fight, the next one has been leaked; and it's possibly an even bigger curveball than Saitama vs. Popeye.
> *Spoiler: Next Time*
> Show
> 
> Herakles vs. Sun Wukong. The mythological figures.
>  This is going to be weird.
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> ...


*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

So.... they are on a roll with showing consistency here... and if they keep that up, they can probably say big H is universal. They called back feats in Geets fight and this week's fight, so them stating that yeah, Herakles is dimensional is inline with that.

----------


## Lemmy

*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

The only feats that give Herakles a chance:

1- He held the sky (which can mean anything between carrying the atmosphere, the planet or the whole universe... Personally, I'd say "the planet" is the one that makes most sense... In so much as "make sense" can apply to this.
2- He was able to wound Hades, a full-fledged god... And implied to have been able to kill him, if it had come to that.
3- He is said to be _at least_ as strong as every other Olympian, Zeus included.

Even so, I'd still probably give the W to Sun Wukong, just because he's so much more versatile.

----------


## Anteros

> *Spoiler: Next Time*
> Show
> 
> The only feats that give Herakles a chance:
> 
> 1- He held the sky (which can mean anything between carrying the atmosphere, the planet or the whole universe... Personally, I'd say "the planet" is the one that makes most sense... In so much as "make sense" can apply to this.
> 2- He was able to wound Hades, a full-fledged god... And implied to have been able to kill him, if it had come to that.
> 3- He is said to be _at least_ as strong as every other Olympian, Zeus included.
> 
> Even so, I'd still probably give the W to Sun Wukong, just because he's so much more versatile.


*Spoiler*
Show

Well, like someone else said.  Zeus can throw mountains, which is explicitly enough to bring down the Monkey King, and Herc explicitly scales to Zeus.

Also, Herc ascends to full fledged godhood in at least some of the myths.  It's been a while since I read Journey to the West, but I seem to recall MK's whole thing being going up against the gods and losing.

----------


## hungrycrow

*Spoiler: Mythology spoilers*
Show

Does Heracles scale specifically to Zeus, or just gods in general? Zeus is the strongest god, supposedly stronger than every other god put together, so I wouldn't give Heracles his feats just because he has god-level strength.

----------


## Anteros

> *Spoiler: Mythology spoilers*
> Show
> 
> Does Heracles scale specifically to Zeus, or just gods in general? Zeus is the strongest god, supposedly stronger than every other god put together, so I wouldn't give Heracles his feats just because he has god-level strength.


*Spoiler*
Show

I would say he scales to Zeus in strength, but Zeus obviously has a lot of other powers that Hercules doesn't have access to.

----------


## Traab

I just want to talk about this battle for a sec. *Spoiler*
Show

As soon as I saw that tetsuos whole thing was basically losing control for his biggest feats, I knew magneto was going to win. It was basically a less balanced wanda versus zatana where control was a key issue.

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## theNater

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> ...Wukong can explicitly be incapacitated by dropping a mountain on him.


*Spoiler: Mountains*
Show

I'll freely admit that all my knowledge of The Journey To The West comes from the Overly Sarcastic Productions summary, but it was my understanding that the mountain had to be supernaturally enhanced to stop Sun Wukong.  I don't think the mountain-dropping is going to work.

----------


## Iamyourking

*Spoiler*
Show

And lifting mountains isn't strictly limited to Zeus. Some Giants did it too, and Herakles can easily be scaled to Giants via his role in the Gigantomachy. Where I currently think he's going to fall short (And I'm sure I'll change my mind several times over the next few weeks) is that Sun Wukong just can't die. The Gods tried everything they could think of to kill him and none of it worked. He can be beaten, as he was by Nezha and the Buddha, he's susceptible enough to pain that the threat of it was sufficient to keep him in line, and dropping a mountain on him can incapacitate him; but I just don't think it's possible to fulfill the condition that the loser must die.

----------


## Rynjin

Don't they have a "render incapable to fight" clause for true immortals?

----------


## Iamyourking

I don't think so, but I'll look into it. 
*Spoiler: On Mountains*
Show

I checked my copy of Journey to the West, and you were correct-Buddha put a seal on it; but it's absolutely like Death Battle to say "This combatant was defeated in a specific manner that we have very good reason to believe that the other one has the ability and desire to replicate-allowing him to gain the advantage." while ignoring the context. Ultimately, while I could initially see how either one could win and went back and forth a couple of times after my initial post; I think I've settled on Wukong unless I see a strong argument to the contrary. I think Herakles' best chances are ignoring the context to produce a Magic Bullet, trying to argue that overpowering Thanatos makes him a conceptual entity on the level of Buddha, or just saying that even if Wukong is more immortal neither one can die and the fight's a draw.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

*Spoiler: More mountains*
Show

While the Buddha put a seal on the mountain for Wukong's most famous defeat, on the journey proper a demon is able to stop Wukong by dropping 3 mountains on top of him (I want to say it was Red Boy?).

I haven't read the book, but OSP implied that that worked in large part by triggering PTSD in Wukong. Don't know how accurate that is, or whether DB would allow that as a lose condition in the fight.

----------


## Rater202

*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

While he was defeated early on by the best warrior there was among the gods, he was otherwise handing them their asses.

And after they tried and failed to execute him by throwing him into the flame used to cook and refine the ingredients for the pills of immortality, and the various immortality drugs in his system concentrated and solidified, the only thing able to stop his rampage through the Heavens was the direct intervention of The Buddha and even he needed to physically trap Wukon and then seal him away rather than defeat him outright.

Considering that at the end of the novel Wukong becomes a buddha himself...

----------


## Rynjin

Not to imply anything, exactly, but...has a character from an Asian property ever won a Death Battle over one from a Western property?

----------


## Anteros

> Not to imply anything, exactly, but...has a character from an Asian property ever won a Death Battle over one from a Western property?


Yes?  Plenty of times.

----------


## Rynjin

> Yes?  Plenty of times.


When? I can't think of any, which is why I asked.

----------


## Anteros

> When? I can't think of any, which is why I asked.


Just google it?  There's a bunch.  Off the top of my head...Broly over Hulk, 18 over Captain Marvel.  I don't even follow Death Battle that closely so I don't even know half the matches.

Here: https://deathbattle.fandom.com/wiki/...Battle_Winners

----------


## theNater

> Just google it?  There's a bunch.  Off the top of my head...Broly over Hulk, 18 over Captain Marvel.  I don't even follow Death Battle that closely so I don't even know half the matches.
> 
> Here: https://deathbattle.fandom.com/wiki/...Battle_Winners


I was able to find about a dozen on that list.
*Spoiler: Fourteen, actually*
Show

Yoshi v. Riptor
Gundam Epyon v. Tigerzord
Solid Snake v. Sam Fisher
Raiden v. Wolverine
Amy Rose v. Ramona Flowers
Sub-Zero v. Glacius
Android 18 v. Captain Marvel
Lucy v. Carnage
Mitsuru v. Weiss
Mechagodzilla v. Dragonzord
Shoto Todoroki v. Zuko
Crona v. Venom
Talbain v. Sabrewulf
Broly v. Hulk

----------


## Anonymouswizard

*Spoiler*
Show

Yeah, I'm giving it to Wukong on the 'literally immortal in five different ways, one of which makes him indestructible' part. If they're not including Herakles's ascension to godhood or Wukong becoming a Bhudda than I can see the Great Sage, Equal of Heaven winning via outliving his opponent.

Arguably showing the limitations of the 'to the death' format, because I'd fully believe that Herakles could force Wukong to submit.

----------


## TeChameleon

*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

Gonna make my call on this one- Hydra Blood arrows.  Herakles has a handful of mind-blowingly nasty toys, and the Hydra Blood arrows can cause unending, screaming agony in questionably-mortal demigods, so there's at the very least a case to be made for them to work on true immortals as well.

So while the Monkey King may not be able to die, Herakles has a pretty good chance of making him desperately wish he could.

----------


## Iamyourking

*Spoiler*
Show

Which is great, and one of the things I've considered. Unfortunately, Wukong is immune to poison; one of his forms of immortality gives him complete control over his body and it's one of the things the Gods unsuccessfully tried to kill him with.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

*Spoiler*
Show

Yeah, Wukong is insane. As I said I fully believe that Herakles could defeat Wukong, either via potentially knocking him unconscious or more likely causing enough pain to make him surrender, but unfortunately the line here is killing.

One side is almost certainly stronger, while the other is definitely significantly more durable. Wukong survived having a mountain thrown on him, and then when the magic seal was removed destroyed the mountain to escape. So while he might not be quite as strong, he's almost certainly strong enough to hurt Herc.

Hmmm... how many tons of TNT does it take to summersault the diameter of the earth a couple of times in a single bound?

...

On the other hand my main reference for Journey to the West is Monkey, which 1) is a lot less serious, 2) by my understanding reduced his powers somewhat, and 3) has had it's theme tune stuck in my head ever since I watched the first episode.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Which is great, and one of the things I've considered. Unfortunately, Wukong is immune to poison; one of his forms of immortality gives him complete control over his body and it's one of the things the Gods unsuccessfully tried to kill him with.


*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

On the other hand, the scorpion's poison does work on him, and he certainly isn't immune to pain considering that's how he's kept under control during the journey to the west. 

But I do think Wukong will win as Herakles is not immortal, and if you take him at his end as a god, then Wukong gets to be a buddha, so that evens out. Plus Wukong has beat up gods before, and Greek gods have been surpassed by mortals and other gods before. While no one has managed to kill Wukong despite the best efforts of nearly everyone. 

So while Herakles might be able to make Wukong suffer, Wukong can actually kill Herakles in return.

----------


## Lemmy

> *Spoiler: Next Time*
> Show
> 
> On the other hand, the scorpion's poison does work on him, and he certainly isn't immune to pain considering that's how he's kept under control during the journey to the west. 
> 
> But I do think Wukong will win as Herakles is not immortal, and if you take him at his end as a god, then Wukong gets to be a buddha, so that evens out. Plus Wukong has beat up gods before, and Greek gods have been surpassed by mortals and other gods before. While no one has managed to kill Wukong despite the best efforts of nearly everyone. 
> 
> So while Herakles might be able to make Wukong suffer, Wukong can actually kill Herakles in return.


*Spoiler*
Show

It's debatable whether Herakles is immortal or not, though... He never dies and eventually ascends to Godhood. Some versions of the character actually displaying him (and even Zeus) being unsure.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> It's debatable whether Herakles is immortal or not, though... He never dies and eventually ascends to Godhood. Some versions of the character actually displaying him (and even Zeus) being unsure.


*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

Sure, but there is a big difference between being debatably immortal, and proven immortal. Herakles never had his head chopped off, and when someone interfered with popping his head back on, proceeded to simply regrow his head instead. Son Wukong did exactly that. 

And really a big difference between the two is that during the Journey of the West, Son Wukong is, as far as I know, never _personally_ in danger. Everything is trying to kill his companions, but nothing can do more than hurt him. (Though some things can hurt him)

Herakles might succeed in all his tasks, but there is the expectation that if he fails he could be seriously hurt or even killed.

----------


## hungrycrow

> *Spoiler: Next Time*
> Show
> 
> Sure, but there is a big difference between being debatably immortal, and proven immortal. Herakles never had his head chopped off, and when someone interfered with popping his head back on, proceeded to simply regrow his head instead. Son Wukong did exactly that. 
> 
> And really a big difference between the two is that during the Journey of the West, Son Wukong is, as far as I know, never _personally_ in danger. Everything is trying to kill his companions, but nothing can do more than hurt him. (Though some things can hurt him)
> 
> Herakles might succeed in all his tasks, but there is the expectation that if he fails he could be seriously hurt or even killed.


*Spoiler*
Show

So you're saying that Herakles is a character that pushes past his limits, while Son Wukong is a character without limits?  :Small Big Grin: 

Anyways, I'm gonna predict that the fight does end with Hydra blood arrows, but Son Wukong tanks them and uses them on Herakles instead. We know those can kill Herakles and it gives the fight a nice final twist that Death Battle seems to love.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> Arguably showing the limitations of the 'to the death' format, because I'd fully believe that Herakles could force Wukong to submit.


*Spoiler*
Show

No, he really couldn't.  Herakles is not the Buddha, the Buddha is the only one who ever had any power over Sun Wukong. 

The impossibility of getting him to submit to anything ever is pretty much his defining character trait.

----------


## Iamyourking

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> No, he really couldn't.  Herakles is not the Buddha, the Buddha is the only one who ever had any power over Sun Wukong. 
> 
> The impossibility of getting him to submit to anything ever is pretty much his defining character trait.


I'm going to dispense with the spoiler tags now that it's been 48 hours. That's mostly true, but the whole reason he was in a position for the Gods to try and execute him was because Prince Erlang beat him in a fight then captured him when he tried to escape. He was unable to *keep* him captured or effectively punish him, but in a fight that wasn't to the death it's conceivable that Herakles could beat Wukong enough to make him run away and effectively become the Winner Via Surrender. Unfortunately for him, Death Battle rules don't count that as a win and without shapeshifting of his own the only thing he can do if Wukong retreats is shoot him with an arrow-which isn't enough to stop him.

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## Lemmy

TBF... Herakles defeated and grievously wounded more than one god... One of them being an Olympian. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that Greek gods aren't immortal....

In fact, what happens if one character is explicitly immortal in his story, but another one is explicitly capable of killing immortal beings in his one? Did the latter not actually meet any true immortals or is it the former who simply never met anything capable of killing him?

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## Anonymouswizard

> TBF... Herakles defeated and grievously wounded more than one god... One of them being an Olympian. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that Greek gods aren't immortal....


Yes, but are they immortal in five different ways?

Also I've got vague memories of them getting immortality from peaches. Which means nothing, but is amusing as it's one of the ways that Wukong is immortal.

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## Rynjin

> Yes, but are they immortal in five different ways?
> 
> Also I've got vague memories of them getting immortality from peaches. Which means nothing, but is amusing as it's one of the ways that Wukong is immortal.


I think you're thinking of Idunn's apples in Norse mythology.

As far as "how immortal is immortal", I think what matters is that Sun Wukong is considered unkillable even by other gods and immortals in his setting, whereas Greek gods and equivalents (see: Titans) are considered universally capable of being slain by other godlike beings.

----------


## Seppl

> I think you're thinking of Idunn's apples in Norse mythology.


No, Sun Wukong has such a story, too. About eating peaches from the garden of the Jade Emperor. And I think there's more stories like that centering about the respective most prominent local fruit in other mythologies. Probably something to be learned about the importance of fruit in early agricultural societies.

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## Rater202

> Yes, but are they immortal in five different ways?
> 
> Also I've got vague memories of them getting immortality from peaches. Which means nothing, but is amusing as it's one of the ways that Wukong is immortal.


They're naturally immortal, but not eternally youthful: Depending on the story, the Greek Gods maintained their youth by either eating golden apples from a tree in a garden maintained by the daughters of the Titan Atlas, which were in turn guarded by a serpent or dragon named Ladon, or by the regular consumption of nectar and ambrosia(in which case the golden apples were just fancy apples)

Stepping lightly here, "fruit/food of the gods" is a bit of a recurring theme in the general.

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## Lemmy

> Yes, but are they immortal in five different ways?
> 
> Also I've got vague memories of them getting immortality from peaches. Which means nothing, but is amusing as it's one of the ways that Wukong is immortal.


I mean... They are immortal enough to be chewed and digested for years and still be fine... As well as surviving wounds such as having their head split to give birth to another deity.

I'm not sure how a Buddha and the gods relate and compare to each other in Chinese mythology and the Sun Wukong stories... But I guess it's fair to say ascending to Bhudda was a step up in power for him... And Herakles did harm purely divine beings (causing great pain, and sometimes almost killing them)... And that was before he ascended to godhood.

Does the Monkey King ever kill a god? I know he beats some of them a few times, but does he ever _kill_ one?

So... Are the Greek gods not as resilient as Sun Wukong... Or do the Chinese gods simply not the same raw power as Herakles is?? Impossible to tell. There's no definitive answer here, really... It's based on personal interpretation and preference, TBH.

I'm guessing they will give the win to Sun Wukong... But whatever the result may be, this is one of the few cases where whatever conclusion they reach just as valid as anyone else's.

----------


## awa

> But whatever the result may be, this is one of the few cases where whatever conclusion they reach just as valid as anyone else's.


Sure but they could badly botch how they get to that conclusion, It wouldn't be the first time.

----------


## Rater202

I still think that Saitama vs Popeye is the closest they've ever been to fair and unbiased. No cherrypicking, no obvious mistakes in the math, no deliberately misrepresenting feats, and no ignoring authorial statements.

----------


## Lemmy

> Sure but they could badly botch how they get to that conclusion, It wouldn't be the first time.


Oh...Definitely!!!  I'm half expecting it be something like "Herakles story is ultimately a tragedy, therefore, he must lose... For narrative reasons!".

----------


## Anteros

Does Wukong have any sort of mind control powers?  Herc is explicitly vulnerable to those.

Otherwise, Hercules is just an order of magnitude more powerful than Sun Wukong.  Wukong gets downed by things like being lit on fire and jumping in a river, diamond manacles, or 3 mountains landing on him.  Hercules could tank any of those with ease.  As far as Hercules scaling to other gods...let's not forget that when the Greek Gods were scared of losing to the Titans, Hercules is who they called to turn the tide, and he's at least as instrumental in their victory as Zeus.  He's not only as powerful as they are, he's the one they call when **** hits the fan. 

Meanwhile, Wukong's best feat of leaping to the edge of the universe is more metaphorical in reference to Buddha's reach than an actual distance...although I have no doubt that DB will take it literally and give Wukong infinite speed.

The only way Wukong might "realistically" win is if Hercules lacks a way to deal with his regeneration and put him down for good.  DB will give it to him based on misinterpreting his speed though.

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## Rater202

I don't know, DB has a history of undervaluing regeneration or assuming that you can brute force your way through defensive abilities that explicitly require some very specific means to bypass.

----------


## Traab

Obviously they will show us god of war whichever had kratos face hercules and say "Ok, thats his durability limit" :p

----------


## Delicious Taffy

> I don't know, DB has a history of undervaluing regeneration or assuming that you can brute force your way through defensive abilities that explicitly require some very specific means to bypass.


Why, we've not the foggiest idea what you could be referencing, not a clue in the world.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Otherwise, Hercules is just an order of magnitude more powerful than Sun Wukong.  Wukong gets downed by things like being lit on fire and jumping in a river, diamond manacles, or 3 mountains landing on him.  Hercules could tank any of those with ease.  As far as Hercules scaling to other gods...let's not forget that when the Greek Gods were scared of losing to the Titans, Hercules is who they called to turn the tide, and he's at least as instrumental in their victory as Zeus.  He's not only as powerful as they are, he's the one they call when **** hits the fan.


The Titanomachy occurs before *humanity*, let alone Zeus getting freaky with any to make demigods. Heracles is not in *any* of the versions of it. He is in *some* versions of the Gigantomachy but his great feat of strength there is dragging a half dead giant around after he's shot it with an arrow. (removing it from its place of power and allowing the poison to actually kill it). 

Heracles the greek demigod /= Hercules the Disney cartoon.

You have completely upended the power scale of these two characters. Heracles in every story *except* the Gigantomachy is a still-mortal demigod who performs feats which would be great for a mortal. Sun Wukong is unkillable (he attained immortality *seven* different ways), barely stoppable in combat (he singlehandedly fought the 100,000 strong army of heaven and several gods), and absolutely irrepressible save only by the Buddha himself.

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## Anteros

Regardless of whether it's Titans or Giants, the story is explicit that Hercules is the reason they won. 

I must have also missed the time when normal mortals went into the underworld, wrestled cerberus to submission and left under their own power.  These are just the most base myths. There's a whole "expanded universe" of purported feats from Greek mythology that aren't included in the base 12 labors.

----------


## Rynjin

> No, Sun Wukong has such a story, too. About eating peaches from the garden of the Jade Emperor. And I think there's more stories like that centering about the respective most prominent local fruit in other mythologies. Probably something to be learned about the importance of fruit in early agricultural societies.


I'm aware. I was expressing doubt as to the Greek one, though according to Rater apparently that's accurate as well? I'd never heard that one.

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## GloatingSwine

> Regardless of whether it's Titans or Giants, the story is explicit that Hercules is the reason they won. 
> 
> I must have also missed the time when normal mortals went into the underworld, wrestled cerberus to submission and left under their own power.  These are just the most base myths. There's a whole "expanded universe" of purported feats from Greek mythology that aren't included in the base 12 labors.


In Appolodorus' version it's prophesied that a mortal will aid the gods in their war, and Heracles does indeed help, mostly by shooting giants with his poisoned arrows.

In Ovid Zeus/Jupiter does it all himself and humanity is made from the blood and gore of the giants.

He's not often depicted in visual representations of the Gigantomachy, those usually focus on the gods.

And yes, there are other stories of Heracles beyond his twelve labours. Most of them are in line with stuff the other Greek heroes got up to (wars and battles and killings of other mortals).

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Meanwhile, Wukong's best feat of leaping to the edge of the universe is more metaphorical in reference to Buddha's reach than an actual distance...although I have no doubt that DB will take it literally and give Wukong infinite speed.
> 
> The only way Wukong might "realistically" win is if Hercules lacks a way to deal with his regeneration and put him down for good.  DB will give it to him based on misinterpreting his speed though.


It's about as metaphorical as any of Herakles holding up the sky. Wukong literally jumps, literally lands somewhere, and it is literally revealed to be that he jumped from one part of Budda's hand to one of his fingers. 

And I'm pretty sure he does lack a way to beat Wukong's immortality. The gods of Olympus are very explicitly not invulnerable as even mortals have managed to cut them in the past. While gods have done things like, say, rip out all of Zeus' tendons. Sure, they can survive said experiences, but they are effectively disabled by them. So Herakles managing to wound Hades isn't as big of a deal as you'd think.

Wukong is pretty much truly immortal. The gods tried and failed to kill him. Many times. Demons and sorcerers tried to kill him and failed. Many times. He's even willing to just stand there and let them try, just so he can show off how immortal he is.

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## theNater

It occurs to me that Herakles kills his enemies, then takes their stuff.
Sun Wukong takes their stuff, then kills them.

This distinction strongly favors Sun Wukong, as Herakles' invulnerability is at least partially due to wearing the Hide of the Nemean Lion.

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## Anteros

> It's about as metaphorical as any of Herakles holding up the sky. Wukong literally jumps, literally lands somewhere, and it is literally revealed to be that he jumped from one part of Budda's hand to one of his fingers.


My point was that Wukong's feats are highly variable while Hercules is consistent.  In one scene, Wukong is regenerating his head after having it cut from his body.  In the next he's rendered unconscious by falling in a river.  His highs might be higher, but his lows are lower.  Given Death Battles methodology, this heavily favors Wukong, and I already stated that I fully expect him to win.

Any time we have a fight like this there's two parallel discussions taking place.  The first is "who will death battle pick as the winner?"  The answer there is obvious.  The second is "who would actually win?"  That's a lot more questionable.




> And I'm pretty sure he does lack a way to beat Wukong's immortality. The gods of Olympus are very explicitly not invulnerable as even mortals have managed to cut them in the past. While gods have done things like, say, rip out all of Zeus' tendons. Sure, they can survive said experiences, but they are effectively disabled by them. So Herakles managing to wound Hades isn't as big of a deal as you'd think.
> 
> Wukong is pretty much truly immortal. The gods tried and failed to kill him. Many times. Demons and sorcerers tried to kill him and failed. Many times. He's even willing to just stand there and let them try, just so he can show off how immortal he is.


Being able to be cut up and still survive due to immortality is something they have in common.  Hercules does ascend to godhood, and thus should have their regeneration as well.  Feats like having their head removed and healing are things the Greek Gods are just as capable of as the Monkey King.  We've established that Hercules probably doesn't have any way of killing an immortal.  Does Sun Wukong have one?  If not they're at a stalemate in my book.

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## Anonymouswizard

> It occurs to me that Herakles kills his enemies, then takes their stuff.
> Sun Wukong takes their stuff, then kills them.
> 
> This distinction strongly favors Sun Wukong, as Herakles' invulnerability is at least partially due to wearing the Hide of the Nemean Lion.


How strong is that thing? Is it just immune to bladed weapons or any physical impact? It's somewhat confusing because IIRC Herakles strangles the thing to death.


As a side note Wukong can apparently carry two mountains? I'm not sure how many earthly mountains there are to a heavenly mountain though, so he might be able to fudge a third of the former.

We also do have relatively hard numbers for Wukong's jumping ability. 108,000 li, which comes out to about 54,000 kilometres. He is strong enough to launch himself over four times the diameter of Earth in a single bound. If we also take 'the speed of a meteor' as literal we're looking at maybe 71,000m/s, but even without that we can use his jumping ability to get a rough ballpark on his lower body strength (and by 'we' I mean 'somebody else who can actually be bothered to calculate the force required'). Wukong definitely seems to be in the same league as Herakles when it comes to strength, do we have any feats from the original sources we could actually measure?

What's going to sell it is their damage resistance, and the Handsome Monkey King has the advantage of his not coming from his clothes.

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## theNater

> Any time we have a fight like this there's two parallel discussions taking place.  The first is "who will death battle pick as the winner?"  The answer there is obvious.  The second is "who would actually win?"  That's a lot more questionable.


"Who would actually win" at what?  If it's a Death Battle, by Death Battle rules, then those are the same question.  If it's something else, you need to clearly define what it is.  And if it's "fight to the death", you need to clearly indicate what counts as "death" for these immortals.

For example: when Zeus had his tendons removed, he was incapacitated until he received outside help, whereas when Sun Wukong was beheaded, his head and body were each able to move independently.  So I ask you to consider: what if each contestant is ground into a fine paste?  Herakles, while technically still alive, would be incapacitated indefinitely.  Sun Wukong, on the other hand, would be up and walking within a few days, at most.  Does this count as "death" for either of them?




> How strong is that thing? Is it just immune to bladed weapons or any physical impact? It's somewhat confusing because IIRC Herakles strangles the thing to death.


The way I've heard it is "impervious to weapons", which I'm happy to work with.  Herakles can strangle the lion to death because he does it bare-handed, and can skin it using a fang because the fang is not a weapon.

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## Anteros

> "Who would actually win" at what?  If it's a Death Battle, by Death Battle rules, then those are the same question.  If it's something else, you need to clearly define what it is.  And if it's "fight to the death", you need to clearly indicate what counts as "death" for these immortals.
> 
> For example: when Zeus had his tendons removed, he was incapacitated until he received outside help, whereas when Sun Wukong was beheaded, his head and body were each able to move independently.  So I ask you to consider: what if each contestant is ground into a fine paste?  Herakles, while technically still alive, would be incapacitated indefinitely.  Sun Wukong, on the other hand, would be up and walking within a few days, at most.  Does this count as "death" for either of them?


The point is that Death Battle is often wrong.  We can have a discussion about who they'll pick to win while also knowing they're inaccurate.

As far as the head thing, Zeus instantly healed his head after Hephaestus split it open with a wedge for Athena to emerge, fully formed.  In regards to the tendons....in the original myth, Zeus defeats both Gaia and Typhon easily at the same time.  I'm not sure where the tendon story originated, but it wasn't Hesiod or Nonnus which are as close to primary sources as we're going to get considering that Hesiod is the first individual that we know of to ever record these things.  

Both of those have him winning easily.  The only versions of the tendon story I can find don't cite a source.  I'd actually never heard of it before you brought it up, which is odd considering I studied Greek history for one of my bachelors.  Of course there's going to be a million different versions of myths like this, but my point is that the original stories directly contradict this version.

Also, while we're on the topic of Hesiod.  He specifically calls the Greek Gods deathless.  Greek immortals are just that.  There's no workaround and no magic bullet to kill them.  Even Zeus can't do it, which is why he has to lock the Titans and Kronos away instead of killing them.  There is a recorded story of Pan dying, but it originated much later after Christianity had taken root in the area and the Greek gods had fallen out of favor.  Of course...this also means that Hercules has no method available to kill an immortal like Wukong either.  On the other hand, several creatures who are described as immortal in Journey to the West do end up dying.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> My point was that Wukong's feats are highly variable while Hercules is consistent.  In one scene, Wukong is regenerating his head after having it cut from his body.  In the next he's rendered unconscious by falling in a river.  His highs might be higher, but his lows are lower.  Given Death Battles methodology, this heavily favors Wukong, and I already stated that I fully expect him to win.
> 
> Any time we have a fight like this there's two parallel discussions taking place.  The first is "who will death battle pick as the winner?"  The answer there is obvious.  The second is "who would actually win?"  That's a lot more questionable.
> 
> 
> 
> Being able to be cut up and still survive due to immortality is something they have in common.  Hercules does ascend to godhood, and thus should have their regeneration as well.  Feats like having their head removed and healing are things the Greek Gods are just as capable of as the Monkey King.  We've established that Hercules probably doesn't have any way of killing an immortal.  Does Sun Wukong have one?  If not they're at a stalemate in my book.


I'd disagree that Wukong's lows are lower. I mean, Herakles almost died crossing a desert and needed to be bailed out by Helios. And while water is a consistent weakness for Wukong (I mean kinda. Sometimes he seems to just ignore it, but usually he can't fight underwater), he can also just avoid it, or fly, or transform into something that can fly. 

They don't really 'regenerate' is the thing. They just don't actually die. Like again, Zeus getting his tendons removed. He didn't eventually regrow his tendons. They had to retrieve his tendons and manually reinstall them in his body. Basically, if Wukong tears Herakles into pieces, Herakles won't be able to put himself together, even if he won't actually die from it. Someone else would have to do that. If Herakles tears Wukong into pieces, Wukong can reassemble himself, and if that fails, spontaneously regrow the missing parts. 

Which also brings up that Wukong just has a bunch more crazy abilities. He can transform, create clones of himself, is a master thief, can command dragons and in general is a good liar/trickster. Herakles is clever sure, but typically he's very straightforward. And I only really remember him fighting with a bow, club, or his own fists. 

Basically the way I see it:

Strength: Herakles is stronger. How much stronger is debatable, but I'm pretty sure Herakles takes this. 
Speed: Wukong definitely, since he routinely travels to heaven and back in less time than it takes a demon to eat a monk. 
Mobility: Wukong can fly, so easy win here. 
Durability: Wukong again as he's immortal some seven times over and is so immortal that nothing can actually kill him. Herakles is only immortal if you take him at the god part of his story. Otherwise he's implied to be mortal.
Skill: A draw if you are being generous. Otherwise, Wukong since he fought pretty much everything in heaven and hell. 
Extra Skills: Wukong by a long shot because the only 'extra' stuff Herakles has that I know about is hydra blood arrows and the durability from his lion skin armor.

----------


## Anteros

Definitely agree that it's only a fight if you take Hercules after ascending to godhood and scale him to the other gods.  If you just look at the 12 labors then Monkey king wins in a stomp.

----------


## Prime32

It's worth noting that there are a number of Eastern figures that have been considered local interpretations of Heracles. He is a big strong guy with a club, dressed in a lion skin (which in India would be localised to a _tiger_ skin), and he once fought a giant with three heads and six arms.

If any of them show up in Journey to the West, then Death Battle could potentially bring out a composite Heracles who has feats of harming Wukong in Wukong's own story.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

> It's worth noting that there are a number of Eastern figures that have been considered local interpretations of Heracles. He is a big strong guy with a club, dressed in a lion skin (which in India would be localised to a _tiger_ skin), and he once fought a giant with three heads and six arms.
> 
> If any of them show up in Journey to the West, then Death Battle could potentially bring out a composite Heracles who has feats of harming Wukong in Wukong's own story.


I mean... Wukong himself is the best candidate I know of by those metrics. Big strong guy, staff instead of club, fought one of heaven's warriors whose battle-form notably included giant size and multiple heads/arms (or at least that's how OSP visualized him), and I think he's usually depicted in a tiger skin? (Not really sure about that last one, the only example off the top of my head is his depiction in God of Highschool).

So yeah, that's a lot iffier than it was in my head, actually. Maybe there are better analogs out there.

----------


## theNater

> Of course there's going to be a million different versions of myths like this, but my point is that the original stories directly contradict this version.


When it comes to choosing between contradictory versions, there's no inherently right or wrong choice.  The "original stories" are just the oldest version, which is only the "best" version if you predecide that oldest is best.  Unlike history, there's no underlying real events that these stories are describing, so they can't be more or less accurate descriptions of those events.

Now, it is important to track which versions were told when and where, so we can understand how stories change over time and how they interact with the culture around them.  But that is not the kind of analysis Death Battle engages in, so it's not particularly relevant in a Death Battle situation.  The Death Battle crew have their own rules and guidelines about which versions to prioritize, and if they make a different choice than you or I would, that doesn't mean one of us is wrong and the other is right; it's just a different choice.

----------


## Anteros

> When it comes to choosing between contradictory versions, there's no inherently right or wrong choice.  The "original stories" are just the oldest version, which is only the "best" version if you predecide that oldest is best.  Unlike history, there's no underlying real events that these stories are describing, so they can't be more or less accurate descriptions of those events.
> 
> Now, it is important to track which versions were told when and where, so we can understand how stories change over time and how they interact with the culture around them.  But that is not the kind of analysis Death Battle engages in, so it's not particularly relevant in a Death Battle situation.  The Death Battle crew have their own rules and guidelines about which versions to prioritize, and if they make a different choice than you or I would, that doesn't mean one of us is wrong and the other is right; it's just a different choice.


Well in that case here's my version of Journey to the West.  "Monkey King is a total wimp who can't even lift his own staff, is totally not immortal, and gets totally pwnzored by anyone wearing sandals."  I fully expect this version to show up in the video since all stories are apparently equal regardless of source.

Of course the original version of a story has more credibility than another that comes much later and directly contradicts it.  What kind of logic is that?

----------


## awa

First death battle typically uses the strongest depictions of the character in question so your version would be negated right there. 
Second do we know they are limiting themselves to ancient sources? They very well could pull out feats from marvel and the god of high school.
Third if they do limit themselves to ancient sources wheres the cut off? they may decide that Ovid is just as good as homer even if one is far older than the other and I personally would not consider that a problem.

I mean of all the dumb things that death battle does not giving priority to the oldest depictions doesn't even register, if anything they favor the most recent depictions of a character.

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## theNater

> Of course the original version of a story has more credibility than another that comes much later and directly contradicts it.


What are you using the word "credibility" to mean here?  It's a very strange word to apply to fiction.  Especially deliberately incredible fiction, like tales of gods, monsters. superheroes and the like.

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## Lemmy

> What are you using the word "credibility" to mean here?  It's a very strange word to apply to fiction.  Especially deliberately incredible fiction, like tales of gods, monsters. superheroes and the like.


I believe he means "closer to true canon, if true canon were at all possible for ancient mythology, and therefore should take precedence when analyzing the feats and capabilities of characters involved in the story".

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## Traab

I have to admit, the idea of creating an amalgamation of herakles from ancient and modern stories is hilarious. Now I expect to see his character from Fate and High School DxD, so now he has multiple lives if you manage to kill him, and has the ability to make you explode with his sacred gear. :p Im not sure how much of that can be done for sun wuking though as, for example, I wouldnt accept goku because he isnt explicitly the guy, just modeled after him.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Im not sure how much of that can be done for sun wuking though as, for example, I wouldnt accept goku because he isnt explicitly the guy, just modeled after him.


If we're allowed to include the Lego Monkie Kid series he becomes literally invincible (also incredibly easily distracted and potentially depressed). I'm also sure we càn find a power upgrade of eighty by combing through the various Chinese and Japanese adaptations of Journey to the West.

Not that I wouldn't watch a video of a stupidly overpowered Herakles fighting a literally invincible Sun Wukong, but it feels more suited to DBX or the like.

----------


## Lemmy

If we're going "most powerful version before godhood", then Herakles should probably be "immortal demigod who can lift the Earth and scales to single-handedly-defeats-Gaia-and-Typhon Zeus. And can do defeat, cripple (and likely kill)  divine beings, including giants and olympians".

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## Iamyourking

*Spoiler: This Time*
Show

Wukong wins, as expected.


*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

Boba Fett vs The Predator makes me 6/6 with predictions

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## Traab

*Spoiler: this time*
Show

No real surprise, though I was impressed with the fact that they even GAVE herc a speed feat, let alone one like that. But as we all said, monkey boy had too many advantages and herc had only one long shot to even WEAKEN his opponent, let alone kill him. 


*Spoiler: next time*
Show

Interesting. On the one hand, predator has some seriously advanced tech including the ability to use a small nuke. On the other, boba is stupidly over rated as a character.

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## McNum

*Spoiler: This Time...*
Show

That was way more fun than I'd anticipated. And yeah, Son Wukong won, he pretty much had to with those feats.


*Spoiler: Next Time...*
Show

On one hand, the Predator has a vast arsenal of weapons, but on the other, so does Boba Fett. What Boba has that the Predator does not, however, is armor. Beskar armor.

Gonna call it now, it'll end with a Boba Fett win similar to the Boba Fett season finale. Both fighters get a good hit on the other, but Boba gets up, because he has armor.

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## awa

*Spoiler: next time*
Show

 boba fett has more comic appearances than the predator that is a huge advantage, nothing beats comics when it comes to significant outliers.

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## Anteros

> *Spoiler: next time*
> Show
> 
>  boba fett has more comic appearances than the predator that is a huge advantage, nothing beats comics when it comes to significant outliers.


*Spoiler*
Show

Yes, but Predator has fought the Batman.  Now, we all know that Batman can fight evenly with Superman, and Superman is infinitely powerful.  Thus the Predator is infinitely powerful.  #deathbattlelogic.

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## awa

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Yes, but Predator has fought the Batman.  Now, we all know that Batman can fight evenly with Superman, and Superman is infinitely powerful.  Thus the Predator is infinitely powerful.  #deathbattlelogic.


*Spoiler*
Show

ah ha you have made the grave tactical error of assuming consistency with death battle always a dangerous choice.

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## Iamyourking

> *Spoiler: Next Time...*
> Show
> 
> On one hand, the Predator has a vast arsenal of weapons, but on the other, so does Boba Fett. What Boba has that the Predator does not, however, is armor. Beskar armor.
> 
> Gonna call it now, it'll end with a Boba Fett win similar to the Boba Fett season finale. Both fighters get a good hit on the other, but Boba gets up, because he has armor.


I concur that it's probably going to be the decisive factor. The Predator is physically superior, has a much better arsenal of melee weapons, and can use his cloak to get into range to use them; but none of them are going to be able to actually get through Fett's armor. His ranged weapons have a better chance of hurting Fett, but still not great-and Fett's much better equipped for a ranged fight. Another potential factor is that the Predator is going to fight fair and Fett won't, leaving them open to a cheap shot.

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## Anonymouswizard

*Spoiler*
Show

I am now awaiting Superman vsvSun Wukong.


*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

I've never seen a Predator film, so I'll bow out of this one.

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## Seppl

> Another potential factor is that the Predator is going to fight fair and Fett won't, leaving them open to a cheap shot.


I have not seen the later Predator films. Do we ever see a Predator when they are not on the hunt? Like do we know what technology they use and how they fight when they are serious? Presumably their technology is capable of far more than we see the hunters use.

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## Iamyourking

There are comics showing that they have gear intended for war that significantly outstrips what they use for hunting. However, we don't currently know if Death Battle will be using a specific Predator, a generic Predator with equipment and skill based on the average of their appearances, or a composite super-Predator with all the best feats for the entire race.

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## Traab

Also, as far as fighting fair, there are limits to that. Like, he only fought arnold in hand to hand because that was all arnold had. When they had guns he had no problem sniping them with his full arsenal. Even though machine gun versus plasma cannon and super stealth isnt exactly a fair matchup. Heck, even a hand gun is enough for them to keep their full ranged arsenal active. That being said, this wont be a hunt, it will be two hunters going after each other. Possibly with a target trying to get away and swapping who has control over him at any point. So the rules may be different. It may take comic delving to figure that set of rules of engagement out.

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## Iamyourking

I see fighting fairly as one of the character traits that they'd want to include to reinforce that they are talking about a Predator specifically, rather than just a collection of stats. The honor code is flexible and there are situations where they ignore it, but to not have it come up is to ignore one of the main things about the character. What I was envisioning is a situation during the fight where the Predator manages to destroy or remove Fett's blaster rifle, Fett grabs a melee weapon, and the Predator obligingly puts away his plasma caster to fight hand to hand only to get sucker-punched by a wrist rocket or concealed weapon.

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## Devonix

> There are comics showing that they have gear intended for war that significantly outstrips what they use for hunting. However, we don't currently know if Death Battle will be using a specific Predator, a generic Predator with equipment and skill based on the average of their appearances, or a composite super-Predator with all the best feats for the entire race.


Well I would call a Predator, specifically a Yautja who's on a hunting trip.  Otherwise they'll just nuke someone with overwhelming fire power

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## Anonymouswizard

> Well I would call a Predator, specifically a Yautja who's on a hunting trip.  Otherwise they'll just nuke someone with overwhelming fire power


Okay, someday I want this to be the ending to a Death Battle.

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## awa

I think how they deal with transitive traits will matter cannon predators mostly just fight soldiers, cannon boba fett has fought far more impressive opponents. However non cannon predator has fought batman and a host of other superheroes sure they usually lose but it would still be a big power boost.
I'm not aware of as many star-wars crossovers as predator crossovers, and the predator cross overs are in some cases practically cannon.

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## PoeticallyPsyco

The big transitive property is probably going to be Predator vs Alien. Xenomorphs have impressive armor, but the Predators' guns go right through it IIRC (and even their nets will eat through it in a matter of seconds). Xenomorph acid-blood similarly eats through Predator gear very easily. In a hand-to-hand, no-weapon fight, a xenomorph beat a Predator.

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## awa

a quick googling reveals a widely paned comic where a group of predator's with the power of the justice league fights the actual justice league. So that would certainly throw things off.

As for acid and predator's gear, some of their kit is in at least some versions acid proof. Allowing a predator's to hack through aliens by the hundred. See the old alien vs predator's beat um up.

Also did any one think it was weird growing up that they had so many toys for a pair of R rated properties? (aliens and predator)

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## Lemmy

> Also did any one think it was weird growing up that they had so many toys for a pair of R rated properties? (aliens and predator)


I always thought it was... Freaking awesome!!!

That Capcom beat'em up game you mentioned is still one of the best of the genre! And the Punisher one wasn't far behind!

Good times, good times...  :Small Cool:

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## Iamyourking

Based on the preview they'll be using an Elder Predator, which definitely tips the scales back in its favor. I'm not sure how they'll handle the movie scaling based on that, maybe something like "The Jungle or City Predators did X, and since they're explicitly chumps we're going to say our Predator is 3 or 4 times better than that".

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## McNum

Two upcoming Death Battles were revealed at RTX today.

*Raiden (Metal Gear) vs. Excaliber (Warframe)* and *James Bond vs. John Wick.*

Good to see Raiden return, may he win an improbable victory once again. Bond vs. Wick is one of those that just makes sense when you think about it. Not sure who to root for there.

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## awa

Ive never actually seen john wick but my gut instinct is death battle will favor bond, because bond has been in comics, video games, and animated series combined with the fact that hes been around so much longer that hugely opens up the opportunity for some stupid outlier in ability to give him super strength, light speed reflexes or some other poorly thought out advantage.

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## McNum

> Ive never actually seen john wick but my gut instinct is death battle will favor bond, because bond has been in comics, video games, and animated series combined with the fact that hes been around so much longer that hugely opens up the opportunity for some stupid outlier in ability to give him super strength, light speed reflexes or some other poorly thought out advantage.


Oh right. Moonraker is going to give Bond some silly feats, what with all the laser guns in that movie.

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## Iamyourking

Within the context of their respective settings I think Wick is supposed to be the bigger deal. Bond is certainly no slouch in a fight, but he's a spy first and most of his fights are 1v1 or against small groups while Wick is a one-man army who spends his movies slaughtering everyone in his path. The problem for Wick in this scenario is, as mentioned, that Bond's setting is much bigger and less grounded-giving him access to a variety of superhuman feats and gadgets that Wick can't match.

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## Forum Explorer

> Within the context of their respective settings I think Wick is supposed to be the bigger deal. Bond is certainly no slouch in a fight, but he's a spy first and most of his fights are 1v1 or against small groups while Wick is a one-man army who spends his movies slaughtering everyone in his path. The problem for Wick in this scenario is, as mentioned, that Bond's setting is much bigger and less grounded-giving him access to a variety of superhuman feats and gadgets that Wick can't match.


To be fair, Bond slaughters his way through armies of mooks plenty of times. 

Personally, I think it's an easy win for Bond. Not that Wick doesn't have the skills to put Bond down, but Bond is only slightly less skilled in a direct fight, has just as lethal weaponry, but more importantly, has all his gadgets. Which range from hidden knife to a car that is actually basically a tank, complete with missile launcher.

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## awa

Now I stand by my opinion that bond will win do to bad physics or super science but just out of curiosity, does wick ever fight peer adversary some single foe who is his equal or better or are foes only ever a threat due to virtue of numbers. Bond regularly fights some boss minion who while they lose in the end single handily pushes bond to the edge.

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## Traab

I will grant the newer bonds especially seem to have a lot more physicality to them. I keep thinking of connery bond and he is more the spy than the rampaging monster of combat. Sure he does his thing and he gets into shoot outs and fist fights, but not even remotely on the level of wick. But the newer one might be able to put up a fight. I think thematically wick has the edge though, just because his character is "Killer that all other killers are afraid of" So his whole thing is being supremely lethal. But bond? Not so much, his whole thing is being feared as one of the best spies in the business. Not the most lethal. That being said, bond has so much involved with him that I wouldnt be surprised at all if death battle cant create some stupid justification for absurd durability or damage output for him.

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## Iamyourking

*Spoiler: This Time*
Show

Another expected result, with durability and dirty fighting being the key points

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## Traab

*Spoiler: this time*
Show

 Ehhh, I sorta agree, though I think the way they ended the actual battle was lame. If it actually came down to durability versus ability to penetrate, thats how it should have ended, not with a blind predator unable to see his opponent. I also think they undersell the experience factor. Yeah the predators are hunters, but as we see, they hunt everything, including people, of various races. Its not like putting a lion hunter up against navy seals. Though the power gap between vader and the stuff they hunt is most likely still serious. But they even admit that the pred had gear which could get through his beskar and then dismissed that. Basically, I think I agree with the outcome, but not the exact reasoning.

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## Traab

New death battle is out  *Spoiler: Transitive property ahoy!*
Show

 Yeah, they did their goro thing where they said, since this one member has this level of speed/power/whatever, then of course the actual character in the death battle should be close. At least they had a decent option for a counter to the HF blade. Fun thing is, I only just recently read my first bit of info on the warframe universe and the tenno as a sort of side bit to a fanfic im reading. So it was interesting to get some back story on them and what they could do.

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## McNum

I kind of liked the format of this one. Having Wiz and Boomstick each champion a character, and interrupt the other during the presentations allows for a lot of the "But what if?" questions to get resolved in the show without having to pile them all on after the fight or in caption boxes.

More of this, please.

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## Traab

> I kind of liked the format of this one. Having Wiz and Boomstick each champion a character, and interrupt the other during the presentations allows for a lot of the "But what if?" questions to get resolved in the show without having to pile them all on after the fight or in caption boxes.
> 
> More of this, please.


I will admit that was an interesting way to do things this time. Each being a fanboy of "their" favorite character so they can pull out all this obscure trivia and number values to crazy events and such. It makes it feel more like two dudes arguing over their favorite characters and deciding who would win.

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## Dragonus45

> I kind of liked the format of this one. Having Wiz and Boomstick each champion a character, and interrupt the other during the presentations allows for a lot of the "But what if?" questions to get resolved in the show without having to pile them all on after the fight or in caption boxes.
> 
> More of this, please.


Kind of reminds me of the way wrestling promotions usually have a commentator on either side of a rivalry helping generate heat get people thinking that there are two sides the the dynamic.

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## Rynjin

If they're willing to do more of it going forward, I'll give them kudos. Being willing (and able) to evolve your format after years of doing the same thing is commendable.

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## Iamyourking

Just in time to avoid needing thread necromancy, there's news on the second half of the season. In addition to the James Bond vs John Wick we already knew, Sauron, Black Adam, and Trunks have been revealed. I figure Sauron is probably fighting Arthas, with an off chance of Voldemort, Black Adam Apocalypse, and Trunks Silver the Hedgehog. Link and Cable would have fair shots at it if they hadn't already been used, but the only other character that even has a chance of being picked to fight Trunks is Crono.
Black Adam vs Apocalypse is fine, and it explains why they didn't put Adam against Goku Black or Vegeta, but I'm not a fan of Sauron and Trunks' most likely matchups. In Sauron's case I'd rather see Arthas vs Archaon and Voldemort vs Palpatine, while Trunks' opponents are all leagues weaker than him. Unfortunately, I can't think of anyone better suited for either of them.

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## Rynjin

Trunks is gonna get bodied by Silver screaming "IT'S NO USE! IT'S NO USE! IT'S NO-" on a loop.

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## Iamyourking

There's realistically three ways that fight can go.
Power Scaling: Silver<Shadow<<End of Z Vegeta<<Goku Black Saga Trunks
Direct Feats: Silver throws around small crates, or at absolute best boulders, Trunks can bisect Merged Zamasu.
Ultimate Wank: Solaris can be argued to be Infinitely Multiversal, making him at least comparable to Universal Zamasu. Trunks was completely unable to even touch Universal Zamasu, while Super Silver is a third of the power needed to defeat Solaris. Therefore, Silver is incomprehensibly more powerful than Trunks. I have actually seen this argument made, otherwise I wouldn't even have considered it.

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## Rynjin

Isn't that similar logic they used to have Shadow square up to Vegeta?

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## Rater202

Black Adam versus Apocalypse is using a superficial similarity(Ancient Egyptian characters who are either villains or anti-heroes depending on time period) as an excuse to have DC Clown on Marvel again.

Adam scales to Shazam who scales to superman and you know damn well that even if Adam _wasn't_ more powerful than Nur they'd rob Nur just to avoid anything that even implies that Superman isn't all-powerful.

Beyond that, Nur at his strongest just doens't come close to that level unless you just assume that he at any point in time has access to the full breadth of power and versatility of his Celestial Technology.

...Also, not gonna lie, given that the ignored things like Carnage becoming outright immune to fire and sonics a year before they announced his match-up, they'll probably ignore Nur getting a perfect immortal vessel that could contain and use his full power a few years ago and act like he's still at the lower level of power he's been in since his first body swap in the 80s.

The only chance Nur has to win is 1: If they assume that he still has Cyclop's powers from the time they were sharing the same body which... Honestly should be the case, given that Nur canocically keeps the powers and useful biological traits of all of his hosts, but he's never demonstrated them since or 2: The acknoledge that the combination of self-sustenance, biological immortality, and total molecular control, shapeshifting, ande extradimensional mass storage means that he realistically can't die to direct damage short of completly destroying all of his molecules instantly in a single attack, which even then would only draw the fight out, not make it fair.

(Nur has suffered critical injury from specific weapons or effects that are hard to heal from, and also been temporarily killed by mundane damage while deaged to prior to the point when his powers developed, but to my knowledge has never been "killed" while at full strength.)

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## Iamyourking

I just watched Vegeta vs Shadow to be sure I was getting it right, and not really. They don't even mention Solaris or try to gauge either one's power, just saying that "Super Shadow is invulnerable, but Vegeta's too stubborn to go down before it runs out". Shadow vs Ryuko only mentions it once in a sidebar-noting that Shadow has technically defeated Solaris and that it has superior reality-warping abilities to the Primordial Life Fiber-and footage of the Solaris fight appears when talking about Super Shadow, but there's no context given and certainly no claims that it's Infinite Multiversal. The numbers actually given all put Super Shadow at roughly planetary, and there's no reason to put Silver ahead of Shadow without arguing "Silver beat Sonic, who frequently beats Shadow" while ignoring the more pertinent fact that Shadow has beaten Silver himself.

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## McNum

I don't see a win condition for Silver against Trunks. Dragon Ball characters get thrown through mountains on a regular basis, you're not putting one down with blunt force trauma unless you really, really bring the blunt force. Throwing everyday objects at one with telekinesis? No and Trunks has a sword, he's just going to cut them.

Grabbing Trunks and tossing him around? Trunks can fly. See also killing a Saiyan with blunt force above.

Yes, Silver can go super and be invulnerable for a while. But Trunks is a pragmatic fighter, he can take it for the duration.

So.... how does Silver win even once if everything comes up Silver?

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## Iamyourking

Since it doesn't look like anyone else will field this, in short-he can't. In more detail, without using the Super state Silver really has three main feats. First, he caught a giant fireball from Iblis and threw it back. Second, he beat Sonic. Third, he's able to keep up with Sonic during the fight against him in Generations. With Super, all he has is the fight with Solaris; but he contributes equally to Super Sonic and Super Shadow, who are roughly Planet-level. Trunks' very first feat, carving up Frieza, outstrips all of those. 
The Power Level needed to destroy an Earth-like planet is somewhere between 10,000 (King Vegeta in filler) and 55,000 (First Form Frieza-Power Level 550,000-destroying Planet Vegeta, which is ten times more durable than Earth due to its higher gravity). Namek Saga 100% Frieza had a Power Level of 120-125 million (At 50% he just barely stopped a Kaioken x20 Kamehamaha from a Power Level 3 million Goku), and Mecha-Frieza was slightly stronger than that. Trunks, in his very first appearance, casually beat a character hundreds of times stronger than Super Silver. It's harder to peg how much stronger he's gotten since then, but at absolute bare minimum the fact that he has Super Saiyan 2 makes him at least twice as strong. Obviously he's far stronger than that, since as soon as he returned to the future he easily defeated the Androids, and in Super could spar with a Post-Whis Training Super Saiyan 3 Goku and contribute to the fight with Black, but that's just to give you an idea of what it looks like to compare Silver at his best and Trunks at his worst.
What really sinks Silver here is his lack of variety. He throws things, and that's it. No telekinetic barriers, no fine-scale pinching off blood vessels, no omni-directional crushing, just throwing things. He doesn't have the power or versality to even remotely challenge Trunks without bringing in the Infinite Multiversal Solaris scaling-and if they want to go that crazy Time Patrol Trunks probably has something better via scaling to Demigra.

----------


## Iamyourking

*Spoiler: This Time*
Show

Bond wins due to better gear, not much surprise there.


*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

Black Adam vs Apocalypse.

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## Rynjin

That one might actually be interesting, they both gave some wacky powers. Isn't one of Apocalypse's things that he can regenerate from pretty much anything? Like "from a single atom" or something absurd like that.

----------


## TeChameleon

'Poccy's powerset, and especially durability, has fluctuated _wildly_ over the years, from 'from a single... cell?.. atom?... whatever' to 'dying ancient being sustained by damaged, failing power armour'.

Honestly, this is at least mildly intriguing, since it's 'not quite Superman' vs. 'fights the entirety of the X-Men in one go'- generally speaking, Black Adam clocks in as roughly one super-weight class lower than Supey... which is odd, since he's supposed to be Captain Marvel/Shazam's dark equal and opposite, and Earth's Mightiest Mortal is portrayed as being one of the few who can hold his own against Supes.  *shrug* whatever.

----------


## Rynjin

I think the Shazam/Superman dichotomy has always been that in concrete terms Shazam is a bit weaker (meaning by extension so is Black Adam), but his powers being magic-based gives him enough of an edge to make up that "tier gap" given Superman's lack of a specific resistance to magic.

----------


## Forum Explorer

*Spoiler: This time*
Show

I called it, and was very happy to see them mention that Bond could turtle up in his car and Wick had nothing that could touch Bond in there. 

But it was even more of a mismatch than I was expecting. I forgot that Bond wasn't just a spy, but served in WW2 as a full on solider first. He had actually had way more experience than John in pretty much every category, so John didn't even have the skill advantage. 

Plus their skills were a bad match up. James is never unarmed due to having dozens of gadgets and is a super spy/solider. John is an assassin who can turn anything into a weapon, but that's actually still a lot less effective than you know, _actual weapons_ 


*Spoiler: Next time*
Show

I'll admit, as soon as I hear Marvel vs DC my interest plummets.

----------


## Rynjin

What typically matters to me is whether the matchup seems like it might be at least arguable. This one does, which is why I'm interested even if it is the umpteenth Marvel vs DC options.

Many of the last several matches have been such obscene mismatches with obvious outcomes that nobody was even interested in discussing them in this thread. Damn, I wonder who'd win in a fight: literally just some dude with a lot of training, or a guy with that same training and also the ability to shoot rockets out of his wristwatch. Hmmm...

Some of the others have just been...what? Excalibur vs Raiden? Why do I care? Excalibur is literally not even a character, he is a suite of abilities you can equip in a game. 

In both of these cases, there's not much worth discussing.

At least I know who Black Adam and Apocalypse ARE, and that they both have wacky enough feats it could literally go either way.

----------


## Rater202

> That one might actually be interesting, they both gave some wacky powers. Isn't one of Apocalypse's things that he can regenerate from pretty much anything? Like "from a single atom" or something absurd like that.


No. Nur's advantage is that he's an External, which means he can't permanently die except by a life drainigng attack or at the hands of another External, and his primary power is the ability to control his own molecules to an absurd degree, but his healing factor has fluctuated from "peak human" to "green goblin" tier.

He is, however, more resistant to damage and possesses superhuman toughness.

Not to mention that his power level fluctuates based on the quality of his host body: In his orignal body he could shrug off a full-powered blast from Cyclops(who at full power has blasted the head of a Celstial and atomized a man) a the same time as a full powered scream from Black Bolt while they were being supported by high end energy weapons used by the rest of their respective teams.

However, his host body was breaking downHe'd made himsef too powerful for his body to contain and he needed to transfer himself into one that was stronger underneath the power-ups. Ideally, one that would make him even stronger.

He uh... Did not get many host bodies that were stronger than his orignal, even after receiving his DNA and enhancements. Compounding the issue is that the means of body-that he was using caused him to permenantly absorb the powers and useful Genetic and Biological traits from the host, so each bad host meant he'd need an *even* better host to fix the problem when this one wore out.

His most recent body is that of a "perfect immortal" that he genetically engineered from human stock and it's strong enough to contain his full power without breaking down... But he doesn't really have any feats since then on par with his feats from his orignal run so we're taking it on faith.

Nur is one of my favorite characters in any fiction, I've done a lot of research into him... He can't win against Black Atom. Even at the most favorable interpretation of his absolute strongest showings and assuming the existence of powers he logically should have but hasn't demonstrated(he should have Scott's powers from the time Scott was his host, for example) he's not on Black Addam's level.

H's also notably demonstrated trouble in healing wounds inflicted by supernatural sourcesa bite from Dracula in bat form didn't heal until he started hibernating in a rejuvenation chamber.

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## Forum Explorer

> No. Nur's advantage is that he's an External, which means he can't permanently die except by a life drainigng attack or at the hands of another External, and his primary power is the ability to control his own molecules to an absurd degree, but his healing factor has fluctuated from "peak human" to "green goblin" tier.
> 
> He is, however, more resistant to damage and possesses superhuman toughness.
> 
> Not to mention that his power level fluctuates based on the quality of his host body: In his orignal body he could shrug off a full-powered blast from Cyclops(who at full power has blasted the head of a Celstial and atomized a man) a the same time as a full powered scream from Black Bolt while they were being supported by high end energy weapons used by the rest of their respective teams.
> 
> However, his host body was breaking downHe'd made himsef too powerful for his body to contain and he needed to transfer himself into one that was stronger underneath the power-ups. Ideally, one that would make him even stronger.
> 
> He uh... Did not get many host bodies that were stronger than his orignal, even after receiving his DNA and enhancements. Compounding the issue is that the means of body-that he was using caused him to permenantly absorb the powers and useful Genetic and Biological traits from the host, so each bad host meant he'd need an *even* better host to fix the problem when this one wore out.
> ...


I mean isn't Black Adam roughly equivilent to Shazam? Who has the absolutely infuriating feat of punching a black hole into existence? Because if they scale Black Adam to that, I have a hard time imaging that Apocalypse has a chance.

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## Rynjin

> No. Nur's advantage is that he's an External, which means he can't permanently die except by a life drainigng attack or at the hands of another External, and his primary power is the ability to control his own molecules to an absurd degree, but his healing factor has fluctuated from "peak human" to "green goblin" tier.


This is what I meant. I was pretty sure there was something he did at one point where he was blasted into dust and just reconstituted his body via molecular manipulation. Functionally similar to regeneration in this case.

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## Rater202

> I mean isn't Black Adam roughly equivilent to Shazam? Who has the absolutely infuriating feat of punching a black hole into existence? Because if they scale Black Adam to that, I have a hard time imaging that Apocalypse has a chance.


Yeah, they're totally gonna scale Adam to Shazam and use that out-of-context feat to justify Nur's loss.

Nur's only advantage is that he doesn't rely on his natural immortality, he tends have backup plans to resurrect himself in play so they might go for a "it's not a fight to the death it's fighting to permma death."

He could also theoretically pull a piece of Celestial technology out of his ass but...

Honestly, Nur's only chance to win would be to body-jack Black Adam... In which case unless they go with Post-Age of X-Man Nur *everyone loses.*


> This is what I meant. I was pretty sure there was something he did at one point where he was blasted into dust and just reconstituted his body via molecular manipulation. Functionally similar to regeneration in this case.


I don't recakll that.

He has a tendency to dodge attacks by reconstituting himself into a taffy-like substance and then bending out of the way/splitting apart and then pulling together. You might be thinking of that.

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## Traab

At first i figured wick had the advantage because while bond is a very highly trained and experienced spy, seducer, soldier, killer, wick is an equally highly trained pure killer. Bond is a jack of all trades, wick is a master of 1. And that 1 happens to be what death battles revolve around. Then they started bringing out game and comic feats, and of course giving him the link treatment where he gets to cherry pick whatever random sci fi magic items they want to give him from all 90 films games shows books, and comics, and I knew who was going to win. 

As for next time, I dont know enough about either to say, I only know apocalypse from the xmen cartoon  back in my childhood. And I barely know anything about black adam.

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## McNum

Bond winning due to being better equipped seems fair enough to me. They were fairly evenly matched otherwise, with Bond being a slightly better marksman and Wick having an edge in melee. And then the Aston Martin enters the fight and by then it's advantage Bond all the way out.

I don't know enough about Apocalypse or Black Adam to make a call for them, but it sounds like Death Battle needs to bring back their Hulk resurrection clause. "If the combatant can revive fast enough to rejoin the fight, it doesn't count. But if it takes too long, they lose."

Honestly, they probably should consider a ten-count on resurrecting fighters. If you can't get back by the count of ten, you're out.

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## Forum Explorer

> At first i figured wick had the advantage because while bond is a very highly trained and experienced spy, seducer, soldier, killer, wick is an equally highly trained pure killer. Bond is a jack of all trades, wick is a master of 1. And that 1 happens to be what death battles revolve around. Then they started bringing out game and comic feats, and of course giving him the link treatment where he gets to cherry pick whatever random sci fi magic items they want to give him from all 90 films games shows books, and comics, and I knew who was going to win. 
> 
> As for next time, I dont know enough about either to say, I only know apocalypse from the xmen cartoon  back in my childhood. And I barely know anything about black adam.


The difference is that it is typically the same Bond. He has actually used all of those weapons at any one time, and there's no reason he couldn't have any combination of them considering they were nearly all made by the same guy, who supplies all of Bond's gadgets anyways. 

Rather than Link who is a reincarnation, and thus some items may no longer exist for a different Link to access. Or have been invented yet. There's a very good reason why Link couldn't have access to every combination of gear from across games.

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## DaedalusMkV

> At first i figured wick had the advantage because while bond is a very highly trained and experienced spy, seducer, soldier, killer, wick is an equally highly trained pure killer. Bond is a jack of all trades, wick is a master of 1. And that 1 happens to be what death battles revolve around. Then they started bringing out game and comic feats, and of course giving him the link treatment where he gets to cherry pick whatever random sci fi magic items they want to give him from all 90 films games shows books, and comics, and I knew who was going to win. 
> 
> As for next time, I dont know enough about either to say, I only know apocalypse from the xmen cartoon  back in my childhood. And I barely know anything about black adam.


The thing with this is that, if you take all of the things that Bond has canonically done... Or even just his average performance in any given piece of media... He isn't so much of a jack of all trades as a _master of all trades_. He's a guy who quickly jumps out from behind a wall, fires a pistol from the hip three times and three mooks on a catwalk a hundred meters away get shot. Who gets into a fistfight with a master martial artist and takes him out no problem. Then gets into a swordfight with an Olympic fencer and beats him. Who drives any car he gets his hands on like a professional stuntman, can fly any aircraft you care to name up to and including space shuttles and rockets, talk his way out of any situation, seduce any person he cares to and sneak his way through tight security. Who rolls up to any gambling table you can imagine and walks away with everyone's money every time. He only ever fails at _anything_ when he's up against a world-class villain who makes the entire CIA working together look like a bunch of clueless idiots. And then not for long. And only in the villain's specific area of expertise.

Add on to that an arsenal of sci-fi gadgets and weaponry running everything spy fiction writers can come up with and you get a guy who will never be a fair match for a mere unstoppable force of nature like John Wick. If you include the video games, where he can take missiles to the chin without dying and has access to tools like invisibility cloaks, energy shields and jetpacks, he starts to look more on the level of a comic-book Superhero than a pulp action hero. You don't even need to cherry-pick if you include the video games. All of the stuff I just mentioned? In the video game From Russia With Love.

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## Rynjin

Even if you give Bond his most basic gear, he would take it. In every Bond film he has some of the same things. There's always some kind of laser cutter device, a reinforced/bulletproof outfit, some explosives, and (of course) a fancy car. And, you know, a gun.

Limit him to just these things and he's AT WORST John Wick but better equipped, as I said earlier. At best, he simply outclasses him in training, experience, and sheer chutzpah.

James Bond was designed to be a Mary Sue lol, no even vaguely normal person stands a chance.

----------


## HolyDraconus

The winner is
*Spoiler*
Show

 Apocalypse.


Next time
*Spoiler*
Show

 Trunks v Silver. Of note, they are showing dragon ball hero Trunks that has SSG, and obtained before that SS3.

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## McNum

This time, I really had no horse in this race.

*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

Trunks vs. *Archie* Silver? Reminder that Archie Sonic was a fair matchup against The Flash some battles ago. This could be a lot closer than we thought when it was game Silver we were thinking of.

----------


## Iamyourking

*Spoiler*
Show

Heroes characters are on a whole other level of power compared to even Super ones. This looks like another Arbitrarily High Number of Universes-scale fight.

----------


## Rynjin

I'm a little interested in watching this one. Everybody seemed to think it was a stomp for Black Adam before the episode dropped.

----------


## Rater202

*Spoiler: This Time*
Show

I feel conflicted about this one. On the one hand, Nur's my boy... On the other, Black Adam scales to Shazam who scales to Superman andI'm not sure that they interpreted some of Nur's feats properly.

In particular, I don't think that the death Seed is typically inside him.


I don't have a stake in the next fight.

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## Forum Explorer

*Spoiler: This time*
Show

I'm a little surprised Apocalypse won, but I suppose if you scale him to Thor's absolute best and combine that with every X-men's feat at their absolute best, Apocalypse becomes a pretty insane powerhouse. 

Regardless, I couldn't understand a single word he said in this death battle which is annoying.

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## Traab

> *Spoiler: This time*
> Show
> 
> I'm a little surprised Apocalypse won, but I suppose if you scale him to Thor's absolute best and combine that with every X-men's feat at their absolute best, Apocalypse becomes a pretty insane powerhouse. 
> 
> Regardless, I couldn't understand a single word he said in this death battle which is annoying.


Yeah, I was very unimpressed with the quality of this fight. It was just this mishmash of blurs and unintelligible speech.

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## McNum

So the previews are out for Xeno Trunks vs. Archie Silver. This is going to be a doozy of a fight.

Interestingly for Trunks, they're also giving him his Goku Black arc stuff as it's implied in Heroes that Xeno Trunks did that as well. And for Silver, well, he's not as fast as Archie Sonic, nor as strong as Archie Knuckles, but he has mastered Chaos Control and can time travel on his own power.

I asked earlier in this thread how Silver could stand a chance against Trunks if all came up Silver. Silver getting to pull from the Archie comics against an even stronger Trunks is certainly a way to make it sporting.

----------


## Traab

The battle is out!

*Spoiler: this time*
Show

 As soon as they said silver was faster than time itself I was fairly sure how it would go. That sword of trunks was the only x factor. I know nothing much about either so I had no horse in the race, but assuming their info was accurate (which is always a big assumption for them) the outcome made sense. Archie comics Silver was just operating on a much larger scale than trunks.


*Spoiler: next time*
Show

Joy, a joke battle. Dont know, dont really care. I was too old for spongebob but too young for superfriends.

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## Rater202

*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

The main thing to note about Superfriends is that an episode in the 80s was the first time ever that Batman's origin story was depicted in any media outside of the comics and that they did a Death of Superman arc before the comics did.

...Also, a lot of heroes based on ethnic stereotypes that are just uncomfortable to watch today.

Anyway, gonna give it to Spongebob. Superfriends, quite infamously, downplayed or ignored pretty much everything Aquaman could do other than breathe underwater and talk to fish.

Spongebob, quite famously, is a master of karate and in more episodes than I can count demonstrates virtual immortality via a regenerative healing factor.

This coupled with his greater degree of toon physics gives him a solid advantage.

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## TeChameleon

*Spoiler: This Time*
Show

I... huh.  My main takeaway from this one was just how incredibly broken the Flash is from his win over Archie Sonic, if Archie Silver can even semi-reliably bring down Xenoverse Trunks.


*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

Superfriends Aquaman did have some bizarre outlier feats, like drowning every coastline in the Pacific Basin with a fish-generated wave (Challenge of the Superfriends Ep. 2, "Invasion of the Fearians"), but for the most part, I'd tend to agree that Spongebob's Toon physics give him a serious edge.  Also, this matchup sounds kind of dumb...

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## Forum Explorer

*Spoiler: This time*
Show

This feels like a what's the word...a case of unstoppable meets unmovable. Trunk's sword can seal away any and all skills. But Super Silver can resist being overwritten. And both have fought opponents capable of destroying or overwriting the infinite multiverse. Which, key word being infinite. You can't have a smaller infinite, else it isn't infinite. 

Anyways they went with saying that Trunk's sword wouldn't work, but I feel like they could have just as easily said it would work. 


*Spoiler: Next time*
Show

Time to settle the debate nobody cared about.

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## Iamyourking

*Spoiler: This Time*
Show


Here's what the author of Archie Sonic has to say:
https://twitter.com/IanFlynnBKC/stat...5Es1_&ref_url=
"Nah, I don't buy it.
If you have to kit out Silver with the Chaos Emeralds AND a Time Stone just so he can compete, that's not a fair fight. Xeno-Trunks's abilities are innate. Even w/o the sword & gadgets, he could nuke Silver from orbit."
Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale or Death Battle Has No Sense Of How To Accurately Depict Characters, depending on which side of the debate one falls on.

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## Rater202

*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

Like, I think that SpongeBob's biggest advantage is that Mermaid Man and Barnacle Boy are almost a 1-1 translation of Superfriends Era Aquaman's abilities, and well...

When Mermaid Man and Barnacle boy came out of retirement becuase they were convinced that Spongebob and Parick were villains, Spongebob and Patrick tanked everything the two elderly heroes could dish out.

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## GloatingSwine

> *Spoiler: Next Time*
> Show
> 
> Like, I think that SpongeBob's biggest advantage is that Mermaid Man and Barnacle Boy are almost a 1-1 translation of Superfriends Era Aquaman's abilities, and well...
> 
> When Mermaid Man and Barnacle boy came out of retirement becuase they were convinced that Spongebob and Parick were villains, Spongebob and Patrick tanked everything the two elderly heroes could dish out.


*Spoiler*
Show

Spongebob is a gag character. That means he is impossible to defeat for a non-gag character, and despite meme status even Superfriends Aquaman is not a gag character. For reference see Arale's appearance in Dragonball/Dragonball Super.

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## Rater202

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Spongebob is a gag character. That means he is impossible to defeat for a non-gag character, and despite meme status even Superfriends Aquaman is not a gag character. For reference see Arale's appearance in Dragonball/Dragonball Super.


*Spoiler*
Show

That's not a good example, given that Beerus casually backhanded Arale's head off and would have destroyed her if he hadn't been appeased.

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## GloatingSwine

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> That's not a good example, given that Beerus casually backhanded Arale's head off and would have destroyed her if he hadn't been appeased.


*Spoiler*
Show

Knocking Arale's head off caused her absolutely no impediment at all though (and it wasn't even the first time it happened). Beerus threatened to destroy her, but she's clearly not obeying the same laws of reality as any other character so whether he actually would have been able to is up for question)

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## hungrycrow

*Spoiler: Next time*
Show

There are a few points against Spongebob:
-He is hilariously weak, and I'm not sure he's ever physically hurt anyone even with his karate skills.
-He is actually the size of a sponge. Regular humans have appeared before and they are giant compared to him.
-He can be hurt by being dried out.

So Spongebob can't physically hurt Aquaman and Aquaman can't physically hurt Spongebob, but Aquaman can end the fight by bringing it out of the water.

Unless I'm missing important evidence from the 20 or so seasons after Spongebob stopped being good.

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## Traab

Spongebob blurb is up. Its confirmed, dude is strong enough to rotate the entire planet, (despite failing to lift a glass of water) reconstitute himself from dust, and absorb enough water to replicate the MOON.

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## Rater202

> Spongebob blurb is up. Its confirmed, dude is strong enough to rotate the entire planet, (despite failing to lift a glass of water) reconstitute himself from dust, and absorb enough water to replicate the MOON.


Obviously he had some kind of offscreen training arc to overcome his weakness.

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## tyckspoon

> Spongebob blurb is up. Its confirmed, dude is strong enough to rotate the entire planet, (despite failing to lift a glass of water) reconstitute himself from dust, and absorb enough water to replicate the MOON.


So this 'fight' is probably going to just be Toons Are Bull****, Part The.. However Many Toon vs Non-Toon Fights Death Battle Has Done. I think the 'what happens if you take random animation clips as serious things that happened' gag here may be tapped out already.

(Next on Death Battle: ToonForce 'calculations' versus Dodging Lasers Means Everybody Is Supra-Lightspeed!)

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## Rater202

So th eAquaman Preview is up.

They seem to have folded in the 60s and 70s era Aquaman Cartoons into Superfriends Aquaman, so this might be a closer fight than we thought.
*Spoiler*
Show

I'm still giving it to the Sponge due to his tanking everything that Mermaid Man and Barnacle Boy threw at him but that Heat Ray might... Spongebob is susceptible to heat and being dried out. Deathbatles also has a history of undervaluing regeneration and assuming vulnerabilities not in evidence in regards to regen and "can't heal burns" is a common weakness of regeneration.

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## McNum

Arthur vs. Bob is up.

*Spoiler: This time...*
Show

_"And that's why Spongebob Squarepants beats Goku."_

This has got to be the single most one-sided squash match Death Battle has ever done. It makes Flash vs. Quicksilver look fair.

Behold Spongebob Squarepants, the new god of Death Battle.


*Spoiler: Next time...*
Show

Jason vs. Michael Myers.

Ooh, a spook-off. Well, it's Halloween, so it's only fitting.

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## Rater202

*Spoiler: This Time*
Show

yeah, about what I expected.


*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

This is a tough one. Partly becuase Michael Myers keeps getting rebooted while Jason only hs the one Reboot.

Assuming a composite Michael, however...

They're both superhumanly tough and they both can regenerate but Michael seems more resilient to damage and his healing factor is just better: Jason was temporarily killed by being shot all to hell and then blown up, but all a comparable injuries die to Michael when followed by falling down a hole and having some heavy crap fall in after him, was put him in a coma for a year or two.

He also fully regenerated an eye between movies.

Jason, meanwhile, for all that his regenerative immortality is harmed on in Jason X, has been temporarily killed on multiple occasions and usually requires outside interference to revive, either someone disturbing him or supernatural contacts like Freddy or that one psychic girl. And if you pay attention he accumulates a number of permanent wounds over the franchise, starting with his original death.

On the other hand, Jason is undead and starting from his first resurrection is typically depicted as not experiencing pain from injuries. He also likely doesn't need most of his organs due to being a corpse, while Michael is a flesh-and-blood humanMichale's been beaten into unconsciousness, while Jason won't stop until he's dead. Jason is also commonly depicted with superhuman strength while Michael's feats are at least plausible, and Jason's got better reach: He wields a machete primarily and is typically depicted as being tall with broad shoulders while Michael typically has a more average build.

Chemical resistance is also a factor: Michal shrugged off being injected with enough corrosive goo that it seeped out of his wounds instead of blood, but Jason has shown to be susceptible to high doses of ordinary drugs.

Finally, there are their mental states to consider: Jason is severely mentally handicapped due to a congenital condition. While he occasionally shows moments of cunning and is a prodigy in inflicting violence, he's also easily tricked and manipulated, and is sometimes depicted with a pathological fear of water. Even when he's not afraid of it, WAter is shown as his weakness, with sending him to the bottom of a lake being used to re-kill him twice and getting caught up in rushing water killing him once

Michael is compelled to kill by either a curse or mental illness. But he's lucid and he's terrifyingly intelligent. He apparently taught himself how to drive and has shown a great deal of cunning. He scopes out his prey hours in advance, and while he primarily favors a knife and he's shown to be able to use just about anything as an implement of stabby death. He has no real weakneses per say just not things that he's immune to.

The X-Factor is their supernatural aspects: If Jason's body is destroyed by anyone other than a blood relative, he can compel people to eat his heart which lets him possess them and then body surf until he finds a blood relative he can be reborn through, while Michael apparently can't die until he kills all of his blod relatives due to a supernatural curse placed upon him as a child.

...Honestly, this is too close for me to call.

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## Traab

*Spoiler: this time*
Show

I was honestly hoping for some obscure panel where waterboy somehow altered reality because cartoon, but yeah, spongebob is broken.

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## animorte

I just want to throw in that Ive always appreciated Death Battle for a very specific reason. Its introduced me to some really cool characters and shows/movies that I otherwise might not have discovered had they not put up a good fight or outright smashed the character I clicked on the video for in the first place. (Even rightfully getting wrecked by my beloved character from something, proving their worth.)

That and they do make some good in-depth analysis.

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## tomandtish

> *Spoiler: This Time*
> Show
> 
> yeah, about what I expected.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: Next Time*
> Show
> 
> ...



Just a few things....

*Spoiler*
Show

1) Michael actually regenerated both eyes (not to mention any resulting brain damage) between H2 and H4. Laurie shot him in both. He also regenerated what would almost certainly be 4th and 5th degree burns (including to his eye sockets). 
2) If the rushing water you are talking about is from part 8, that was actually toxic waste. Apparently they flood the sewers with it for some reason?

----------


## SKarious

Is it weird that this battle seems more believable and easier to comprehend than Trunks vs. Silver?
Toon force is crazy, but whatever-verse shattering powers are something I just can't grok.

*Spoiler: Toon shenanigans*
Show


So, do you think Spongebob could defeat Popeye? 
I'd say he can. His Toon lunacy is nearly as strong, and he's specifically immune to punching and splitting.

If not, the only way to stop one of them might be a barrel of DIP.

----------


## Iamyourking

*Spoiler: This Time*
Show

 Jason wins in an extremely brief fight


*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

 As I predicted, Sauron is facing Arthas.

----------


## Traab

*Spoiler: this time*
Show

I agree with the argument here. Mike has survived a lot of bad stuff, but jason has been shown surviving clearly lethal injuries while mike has not. Jason has more durability to let him tank any extra lucky hits he may take. 


*Spoiler: next time*
Show

 Sounds like fun, but my money goes with arthas. The dude is far more of a direct combat type than sauron classically is. Dont get me wrong, dude can throw down when he takes the field, but taking the field isnt his standard operating procedure. The problem comes with comparing feats, because in middle earth, killing a dragon then raising its corpse to serve you is a WAY BIGGER DEAL than in warcraft where dragons get hunted down semi regularly. Now is that a power scale issue where warcraft people are stronger? Or are warcraft dragons weaker than those in middle earth? I have no idea.

----------


## Seppl

> *Spoiler: next time*
> Show
> 
>  Sounds like fun, but my money goes with arthas. The dude is far more of a direct combat type than sauron classically is. Dont get me wrong, dude can throw down when he takes the field, but taking the field isnt his standard operating procedure. The problem comes with comparing feats, because in middle earth, killing a dragon then raising its corpse to serve you is a WAY BIGGER DEAL than in warcraft where dragons get hunted down semi regularly. Now is that a power scale issue where warcraft people are stronger? Or are warcraft dragons weaker than those in middle earth? I have no idea.


*Spoiler: next time*
Show

Agree. Sauron's (considerable!) strength comes from his inexhaustible armies, his technological mindset, and - at least in the far past - his deceiving personality. Arthas also has an inexhaustible army but is also an unstoppable fighting machine himself. He may be far less of a charmer than Sauron at his peak, but that is a skill that does not matter in direct combat. Concerning magic and technology, Sauron may be far ahead of his opposition in Middle Earth, while Arthas operates at about the same level as anyone else in the World of Warcraft, but that level is *far* above anything seen in Middle Earth. 

Power scaling between Middle Earth and Warcraft: Maybe we can assume that humans are about the same in both settings? In that case, both Arthas and Sauron are extinction level threats to the well established, advanced human kingdoms of their respective worlds, even when those are allied with the other races of their worlds. Making their armies and feats about equal, which means again that Arthas wins due to personal prowess. And the things we see from humans in Warcraft appears to be far above what a real-world human can do, whereas humans in Middle Earth are canonically the same as modern day humans, with maybe small buffs from their Numenorian ancestry. Skewing the stats even more to Arthas advantage.

----------


## awa

*Spoiler*
Show

the lotr is a fairly compact work of a single author, warcraft is a huge sprawling contradictory mess, when cherry picking feats that's a massive advantage.
Arthas is also a much more central character, we see him do a lot more stuff thus giving him more time to shine.


why are we spoiling next times contenders? I get spoiling the winner but I'm not sure why we spoil whose up next.

----------


## Seppl

> why are we spoiling next times contenders? I get spoiling the winner but I'm not sure why we spoil whose up next.


Speaking for myself, I feel some anticipation when they reveal the next contestants. And judging by the style of the reveals, that is definitely intentional by Death Battle.

----------


## TeChameleon

*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

One thing that may or may not tip the scales towards Sauron; if I'm remembering correctly (and I'm really not sure if I am), the various Maiar Wizard types weren't allowed to excercise their full power against Sauron because if it came down to that style of throwdown, the planet itself couldn't take it and they'd destroy the world.

So that could... potentially put Sauron at planet-killer status, which I'm not sure Arthas can match.

... assuming I'm remembering right *shrug*

----------


## Traab

> *Spoiler: Next Time*
> Show
> 
> One thing that may or may not tip the scales towards Sauron; if I'm remembering correctly (and I'm really not sure if I am), the various Maiar Wizard types weren't allowed to excercise their full power against Sauron because if it came down to that style of throwdown, the planet itself couldn't take it and they'd destroy the world.
> 
> So that could... potentially put Sauron at planet-killer status, which I'm not sure Arthas can match.
> 
> ... assuming I'm remembering right *shrug*


I generally only worry about spoilers for the first few posts so anyone coming into the thread can see all the spoiler tags, stop reading till they watch the vid, then move on. Thats actually an interesting point. I cant recall if they are bound from using their full power because planet go boom, or if because they are just not supposed to swoop in as avenging angels and fight middle earths battles for them, instead acting as guides, advisors, and general support so the free people of middle earth can know what they are facing and handle it themselves. Also, their human forms cant handle that level of power so its a one time trump card because once they face the balrog and kill it, they have to return to heaven or whatever, leaving middle earth without their council. But this is all hazy recollection from books I havent read in lord knows how long.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> *Spoiler: Next Time*
> Show
> 
> One thing that may or may not tip the scales towards Sauron; if I'm remembering correctly (and I'm really not sure if I am), the various Maiar Wizard types weren't allowed to excercise their full power against Sauron because if it came down to that style of throwdown, the planet itself couldn't take it and they'd destroy the world.
> 
> So that could... potentially put Sauron at planet-killer status, which I'm not sure Arthas can match.
> 
> ... assuming I'm remembering right *shrug*


*Spoiler*
Show

On the other hand he once got his arse kicked by a dog. It was a hero dog from an earlier age, but it was just a dog.

----------


## Silva Stormrage

> *Spoiler: next time*
> Show
> 
> Agree. Sauron's (considerable!) strength comes from his inexhaustible armies, his technological mindset, and - at least in the far past - his deceiving personality. Arthas also has an inexhaustible army but is also an unstoppable fighting machine himself. He may be far less of a charmer than Sauron at his peak, but that is a skill that does not matter in direct combat. Concerning magic and technology, Sauron may be far ahead of his opposition in Middle Earth, while Arthas operates at about the same level as anyone else in the World of Warcraft, but that level is *far* above anything seen in Middle Earth. 
> 
> Power scaling between Middle Earth and Warcraft: Maybe we can assume that humans are about the same in both settings? In that case, both Arthas and Sauron are extinction level threats to the well established, advanced human kingdoms of their respective worlds, even when those are allied with the other races of their worlds. Making their armies and feats about equal, which means again that Arthas wins due to personal prowess. And the things we see from humans in Warcraft appears to be far above what a real-world human can do, whereas humans in Middle Earth are canonically the same as modern day humans, with maybe small buffs from their Numenorian ancestry. Skewing the stats even more to Arthas advantage.



*Spoiler*
Show


Ya warcraft humans have some truly insane feats. Here are several of them carrying a giant dragon's head with no real difficulty. 


Then again they might pull out some ridiculous flavor text for Sauron that "proves" he is lightspeed or something. Still my money is on Arthas. I do wonder if they will use the respective armies for this fight though. If so that is also an advantage to Arthas as orcs really won't do anything to the Scourge and will just be slain and raised.

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## Seppl

*Spoiler: next time*
Show

Another wild angle which Sauron _could_ use to overcome Arthas strength: Seduction. Arthas is pretty much the poster child for the kind of character easily seduced by the power of a great ring. It has happened to him before almost literally. Except it was a sword, not a ring. If Sauron produced a ring for Arthas to use (it does not even have to be The One Ring, any great ring would do), Arthas would no doubt pick it up with the intent to use it against Sauron. Which opens him up to become a thrall of Sauron's. Which, again, has already happened to Arthas, almost literally the same way. What we do not know is how this would interact with the Lich King persona, that Arthas acquired after becoming possessed this way.

Counterpoint to this is, that becoming a ring wraith can take a really long time, years or even centuries. In Middle Earth, Sauron was always able to use his immortality to play the long game, but this might not be applicable to a Death Battle. Arthas could probably permanently kill/imprison Sauron's soul by using Frostmourne, long before any of the long term effects of exposure to a ring become relevant.

----------


## Devonix

> *Spoiler: next time*
> Show
> 
> Another wild angle which Sauron _could_ use to overcome Arthas strength: Seduction. Arthas is pretty much the poster child for the kind of character easily seduced by the power of a great ring. It has happened to him before almost literally. Except it was a sword, not a ring. If Sauron produced a ring for Arthas to use (it does not even have to be The One Ring, any great ring would do), Arthas would no doubt pick it up with the intent to use it against Sauron. Which opens him up to become a thrall of Sauron's. Which, again, has already happened to Arthas, almost literally the same way. What we do not know is how this would interact with the Lich King persona, that Arthas acquired after becoming possessed this way.
> 
> Counterpoint to this is, that becoming a ring wraith can take a really long time, years or even centuries. In Middle Earth, Sauron was always able to use his immortality to play the long game, but this might not be applicable to a Death Battle. Arthas could probably permanently kill/imprison Sauron's soul by using Frostmourne, long before any of the long term effects of exposure to a ring become relevant.


Counterpoint.  *Spoiler*
Show

Sauron is the Starscream of Lord of the Rings, Yeah he's a big bad but he loses most actual fights against other powers

----------


## animorte

> Counterpoint.  *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Sauron is the Starscream of Lord of the Rings, Yeah he's a big bad but he loses most actual fights against other powers


*Spoiler*
Show

Are you directly referencing Rainbow Dash tossing around Starscream like a wet paper towel?

Hilarious

----------


## Iamyourking

We can dispense with the spoilers now that it's pretty much been a day and a half. I think it was in reference to the fact that Starscream almost always loses no matter who he's fighting, with Rainbow Dash being just one of the more egregious examples. 
Along related lines, apparently Starscream vs Rainbow Dash was one of the few Death Battles where they determined who the winner was going to be before they put it on the schedule; because they were afraid that just having a My Little Pony character would get it recommended to kids and were afraid of what might happen to the show if the algorithm-determined target audience saw her being blown up by an F-14. That's also why Twilight Sparkle vs Raven cut away from the finishing blow, although I believe it was otherwise treated as a normal episode.

----------


## Delicious Taffy

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> Then again they might pull out some ridiculous flavor text for Sauron that "proves" he is lightspeed or something.


Considering that Death Battle's definition of light speed is "moving kinda fast near an object that emits light", Farmer Maggot is probably a light speed level combatant. Sauron is almost as powerful as him, so yeah, he's probably considered at least 80% light speed.

----------


## Traab

Yeah im not thinking sauron has any hope of seduction or enslavement of arthas. He is already enslaved by an ancient and powerful being, and his own soul was the first devoured by frostmourne when arthas took it up. Plus, this is a death battle, not an ages long war (which could also be interesting, if difficult to show) where the slow corruption of a fricking lich king is something that could even potentially happen. Will sauron get to have his ring back for this fight? Id imagine so as its both at their peaks. 

Now I kinda want to see them fight it out as a long war in middle earth. Mordor is in the southeast, put arthas and icecrown glacier along with his forces in the frozen north, then have them both focus on each other. Arthas and his necromancers marching south, raising the dead both ancient and recent as they go, taking command of the barrows and such, wiping out anything in his path, while sauron marches his armies and all his "allies" northward, burning and pillaging as they go. Trolls versus abominations, orcs and goblins versus skeletons and zombies, spiders versus nerubians, wraiths versus banshees, death knights versus ringwraiths, undead dragons and gargoyles versus whatever the heck sort of flying monsters sauron can call upon.  And at the center, The Lich King, Arthas, versus Sauron, the Lord of the Rings. Honestly, unless suarons troops are just lopsidedly stronger than arthas' minions, I gotta give it to the guy who can raise the dead as his own loyal troops. Yes sauron is also known as the necromancer, but the sheer scale of undead control arthas has tells me they wont exactly be struggling over who gets to raise the dead on their side.

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## Seppl

Even a major war probably goes to Arthas, quickly and decidedly. In Middle Earth, a big siege ram, a wraith, or a flying mount are all major army assets, that whole strategies revolve around. Even for Sauron who has by far the strongest conventional forces.  A small dragon would be the stuff of legend and Sauron does not even have that. On Azeroth, all that and much more are commonplace. Sauron really needs this conflict to last centuries until his major strengths, corruption and innovation, could turn the tide. And I am not even sure that Sauron is a greater innovator than Arthas and his lieutenants.

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## awa

I mean I could see how sauorn would win if the goal was for a writer to let him win. (in an army battle) Its pretty straight forward, manipulate the heroes into doing it for him. Corrupt the heroes as they are fighting the scourge so that when every thing is done he comes out on top. In this situation his army of evil is unnecessary because their is an army of good at his side.

If he has to bring the army he has though hes in rough shape, morale seems to be a very decisive factor in lotr battles and the undead are both fearsome and fearless.

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## Talakeal

Arthas wins the battle but Sauron wins the war.

Not sure how DB would actually call this one.

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## awa

I'm curious why you think Sauron wins the war. In terms of pure military assets arthas has an overwhelming advantage just based on the sheer variety of troops at his disposal.   

sauron is a good manipulator but you cant manipulate if your dead, and an army of the dead leaves little for you to work against. You can't corrupt a ghoul or skeleton.

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## Talakeal

> I'm curious why you think Sauron wins the war. In terms of pure military assets arthas has an overwhelming advantage just based on the sheer variety of troops at his disposal.   
> 
> sauron is a good manipulator but you cant manipulate if your dead, and an army of the dead leaves little for you to work against. You can't corrupt a ghoul or skeleton.


Sauron has a history of feigning defeat and destroying his enemies from within. Arthas has a history of being easily manipulated.

Heck, there is a good chance Arthas will simply smash Sauron's body and trap his spirit inside Frostmourne and then make him a permanent voice in his head, which is exactly where Sauron needs to be.

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## awa

> Sauron has a history of feigning defeat and destroying his enemies from within. Arthas has a history of being easily manipulated.
> 
> Heck, there is a good chance Arthas will simply smash Sauron's body and trap his spirit inside Frostmourne and then make him a permanent voice in his head, which is exactly where Sauron needs to be.


except Arthas isn't just Arthas Hes fused with a lich, who is also a corruptive manipulator, which is a far more complicated matter. A question of whether frost mourn can permanently harm sauron thus leaving no opportunity to corrupt him is also on the table. But a battle of corruption is far less certain than a clash of armies. I did not do wow to any great degree or the books/ comics so I'm curious what feats they will pull out for Arthas.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> Ya warcraft humans have some truly insane feats. Here are several of them carrying a giant dragon's head with no real difficulty. 
> 
> 
> Then again they might pull out some ridiculous flavor text for Sauron that "proves" he is lightspeed or something. Still my money is on Arthas. I do wonder if they will use the respective armies for this fight though. If so that is also an advantage to Arthas as orcs really won't do anything to the Scourge and will just be slain and raised.


*Spoiler*
Show

When you spend your life with those giant pauldrons on, you build up some wicked delts.

----------


## Talakeal

> except Arthas isn't just Arthas Hes fused with a lich, who is also a corruptive manipulator, which is a far more complicated matter. A question of whether frost mourn can permanently harm sauron thus leaving no opportunity to corrupt him is also on the table. But a battle of corruption is far less certain than a clash of armies. I did not do wow to any great degree or the books/ comics so I'm curious what feats they will pull out for Arthas.


Depends on which canon we are going by.

Warcraft 3 he is fused with Nerzuhl who is, while a lot smarter than Arthas, still someone who was repeatedly tricked and manipulated throughout his life, primarily by Kil'jaden who is a being very similar to Sauron.

Then they retconned it to Arthas alone being the lich king, having totally destroyed Nerzuhl's personality / soul. Even in this instance though he was still being influenced by the souls trapped in his blade and the Old God under Northrend.

Then they retconned it again to say that the whole time Arthas was being influenced by The Jailer, his own will being worn away and him slowly working toward The Jailer's schemes without realizing why.

----------


## awa

> Depends on which canon we are going by.
> 
> Warcraft 3 he is fused with Nerzuhl who is, while a lot smarter than Arthas, still someone who was repeatedly tricked and manipulated throughout his life, primarily by Kil'jaden who is a being very similar to Sauron.
> 
> Then they retconned it to Arthas alone being the lich king, having totally destroyed Nerzuhl's personality / soul. Even in this instance though he was still being influenced by the souls trapped in his blade and the Old God under Northrend.
> 
> Then they retconned it again to say that the whole time Arthas was being influenced by The Jailer, his own will being worn away and him slowly working toward The Jailer's schemes without realizing why.


All the retcons were a turn off for me with wow and that's worse then I was aware.

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## Traab

I love the stratholme conundrum. The real reason Arthas went nuts, imo, was because uther and jaina turned on him. They decried his solution but had absolutely nothing to suggest as an alternative plan. What else could he have done? The entire population was infected and going to turn, they had no clue on how to cure it. Malganis was rampaging through the city killing them to raise as undead and if left alone, the scourge would have been multiplied in size and buried lorderan under their swarm. Even now, many years afterwards, i cant think of a legit alternate plan that doesnt end with lorderan destroyed and all life wiped out.

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## awa

I don't think that's why he went crazy myself but
In that particular incident their really didn't seem to be an alternative. Other stuff he does latter down the line is less forgivable but as I recall it from so long ago it definitely seems justified. Course they probably retconed it by now.

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## Forum Explorer

> I'm curious why you think Sauron wins the war. In terms of pure military assets arthas has an overwhelming advantage just based on the sheer variety of troops at his disposal.   
> 
> sauron is a good manipulator but you cant manipulate if your dead, and an army of the dead leaves little for you to work against. You can't corrupt a ghoul or skeleton.


I mean, Arthras doesn't have full control over his dead army, and the Forsaken are flat out in rebellion against him. That's plenty of room for Sauron to slip in and usurp control. 

And Arthras himself seems to be particularly prone to falling to corruption and manipulations. Sauron could take a dive, Arthras picks up the Ring of Power and ends up controlled by Sauron.

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## Dragonus45

Yea Warhammer Undead are not mindless and can be manipulated, controlled, and cajoled like any other person. Really they seem to be more susceptible to it then most.

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## Keltest

> Yea Warhammer Undead are not mindless and can be manipulated, controlled, and cajoled like any other person. Really they seem to be more susceptible to it then most.


Assuming you mean WarCRAFT undead, that depends. Plenty of them are basically mindless. The Forsaken and their equivalents are generally the top tier in intelligence and even then being undead has a tendency to affect their minds somewhat. Theres a reason that perfectly normal people get turned undead and suddenly decide its a good idea to start messing around with green goo that kills everyone and everything.

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## Forum Explorer

> Assuming you mean WarCRAFT undead, that depends. Plenty of them are basically mindless. The Forsaken and their equivalents are generally the top tier in intelligence and even then being undead has a tendency to affect their minds somewhat. Theres a reason that perfectly normal people get turned undead and suddenly decide its a good idea to start messing around with green goo that kills everyone and everything.


That's probably why they are more susceptible to being corrupted and manipulated really. But even the chaff can be usurped by someone more locally. I'm pretty sure that's what Slyvanas did to get her chaff out of Arthras' control.

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## Dragonus45

> Assuming you mean WarCRAFT undead, that depends. Plenty of them are basically mindless. The Forsaken and their equivalents are generally the top tier in intelligence and even then being undead has a tendency to affect their minds somewhat. Theres a reason that perfectly normal people get turned undead and suddenly decide its a good idea to start messing around with green goo that kills everyone and everything.


Yes I mean Warcraft.

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## awa

I think saurons getting a little to much credit, he does lose and its not like all his manipulations result in a win for him. Remember his big plan in the end is to use an army to close the deal an army that largely fails in the field against inferior foes. To be fair the lich king loses to but he does way more damage before he goes down.

manipulation is useful but its not necessarily an automatic win.

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## Forum Explorer

> I think saurons getting a little to much credit, he does lose and its not like all his manipulations result in a win for him. Remember his big plan in the end is to use an army to close the deal an army that largely fails in the field against inferior foes. To be fair the lich king loses to but he does way more damage before he goes down.
> 
> manipulation is useful but its not necessarily an automatic win.


He only lost because of Smegal being mindcontrolled to jump off the nearest cliff if they attacked Frodo, attacked Frodo right at the volcano's edge and jumped off the cliff with the ring. Otherwise Frodo would've fallen to his power and returned the Ring to Sauron. 

Because while he can corrupt and manipulate the leaders of nations, getting literally everyone under his control requires an army. 

I'm actually not familiar enough with LOTR to debate the damage part. I'm not sure if Sauron gets the credit for orcs being created, or the destruction of Numeor.

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## Traab

> That's probably why they are more susceptible to being corrupted and manipulated really. But even the chaff can be usurped by someone more locally. I'm pretty sure that's what Slyvanas did to get her chaff out of Arthras' control.


What happened with sylvanis was, arthas raised her as a banshee with enough of her mind intact to suffer seeing quelthalas burned to the ground as she was forced to help destroy it. Then, Illidan attacked the lich king (who wasnt merged with arthas yet) somehow, which disrupted his control over the undead. Setting sylvanis and a number of others free mentally. It does imply that the lich king can be contested for control over the undead to an extent, but im not sure sauron has that much juice to use against arthas. 

And Awa, I agree, there were plenty of other heinous actions he took afterwards that cemented him as a bad guy, but how would it have played out if jaina and uther had admitted they didnt have a better idea and stuck with him? After stratholme, arthas felt alone and abandoned, with nobody to help him stop malganis other than the troops under his command. He had no advisors until he found muradin to try and talk sense into him. I just think that it was a bad story choice to have them turn on arthas there. Unless them being wrong was an intended part of the story, they should have picked a less grey scenario to suddenly decide arthas is nuts and cant be supported (but oddly they refuse to stop him)

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## awa

> I just think that it was a bad story choice to have them turn on arthas there. Unless them being wrong was an intended part of the story, they should have picked a less grey scenario to suddenly decide arthas is nuts and cant be supported (but oddly they refuse to stop him)


I agree it's been a long time since I played the game, but if I recall correctly, they do come across as unreasonable and Arthas making the hard but necessary choice.

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## theNater

> I agree it's been a long time since I played the game, but if I recall correctly, they do come across as unreasonable and Arthas making the hard but necessary choice.


You do not recall correctly.

Arthas jumps straight from the knowledge the townspeople are infected with zombie plague to "murder everyone; failure to start murdering immediately is treason".

It is admittedly true that the others do not present a fully-formed alternative within 15 seconds of being informed of the problem, but it's Arthas' fault we'll never know what they would have come up with had they been given even a minute to think.

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## awa

It still feels like the necessary act but it isn't quite how I remembered it decades down the line.

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## Forum Explorer

> It still feels like the necessary act but it isn't quite how I remembered it decades down the line.


It was probably correct, but he's making a lot of assumptions. For example: That everyone in the city is infected. Or that the plague is 100% fatal. Or that there was no way to find a cure.

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## Rynjin

That last is a big one. He's traveling with an extremely skilled and powerful Mage, as well as a similarly experienced healing-focused Paladin.

Give 'em like...some time to study and come up with a cure first maybe?

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## Keltest

> That last is a big one. He's traveling with an extremely skilled and powerful Mage, as well as a similarly experienced healing-focused Paladin.
> 
> Give 'em like...some time to study and come up with a cure first maybe?


The citizens are actively turning as you get into the city, and even beyond that Mal'Ganis is actively in the city with his army as well. There is no time. As far as a moral dilemma goes, its a very strong one. In universe, Jaina and Uther even look back and believe that their total rejection of Arthas in that moment was probably the deciding factor for his fall, and one they would take back if they could.

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## Forum Explorer

> The citizens are actively turning as you get into the city, and even beyond that Mal'Ganis is actively in the city with his army as well. There is no time. As far as a moral dilemma goes, its a very strong one. In universe, Jaina and Uther even look back and believe that their total rejection of Arthas in that moment was probably the deciding factor for his fall, and one they would take back if they could.


In their defense, Arthras didn't give them any wiggle room. It was either murder everyone or 'treason'.

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## Traab

> In their defense, Arthras didn't give them any wiggle room. It was either murder everyone or 'treason'.


Arthas didnt have any wiggle room either. By dawn the entire city was going to be turned into an undead horde lead by a dread lord. There wasnt room for gentle debate and careful reflection. With every minute that passed more undead were raised and joining the forces of evil. Imagine facing an army invading america, then learning the entire population of LA is going to be converted overnight into more troops and you have no way to reverse it. Thats what Arthas was dealing with. Had they not wiped out the city, all of lorderan would have fallen to the overwhelming number of undead. He was honestly the most clear headed leader there.

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## Seppl

New battle is out.


*Spoiler: This time*
Show

The ultimate power scaling hogwash. The outcome is pretty much decided by comparing two completely unrelated characters from each world, using rather dubious feats. The actual feats performed by the combatants are not considered, nor is there any explanation why feats of other related characters are not taken into account, for example Nerzhul - who has a far more immediate connection to Arthas - accidentally ripping apart a whole planet.

The connection Osse to Sauron is especially suspect. It is like saying Hephaestus and Poseidon can do the same things. At least for Guldan and Arthas there is some vague connection, but no explanation why Arthas should not be *way* stronger than the guy who lost to the guy whom Arthas (pre power-up!) handily defeated.



*Spoiler: next time*
Show

Deku vs. Asta. I have no idea who these people are.

----------


## Delicious Taffy

> *Spoiler: next time*
> Show
> 
> Deku vs. Asta. I have no idea who these people are.


*Spoiler: Still not sure why we're supposed to hide these*
Show

The only "Deku" I know off the top of my head is the little shrubby guys from _Zelda_ games I haven't played yet. No earthly idea what an "Asta" could be.

----------


## Lord Raziere

*Spoiler*
Show

Guys its Izuku Midoriya (whose hero name IS Deku) from My Hero academia vs the protagonist of  Black Clover, Asta. y'know the guy everyone was memeing about being loud when it first came out? has a big sword and anti magic powers? it says something that I've only watched Black Clover up to episode 6 or so and somehow I'm the only one who knows anything about him.

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## Iamyourking

*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

It's Izuku "Deku" Midoriya from My Hero Academia vs Asta from Black Clover.


*Spoiler: This Time*
Show

I figured they were either going to go with Arthas cuts off Sauron's finger, stops to pick up the ring, and then gets his head smashed in while he's mentally battling Sauron's influence or Sauron bungles it at the last second because he has never actually won a fight.

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## Rynjin

Y'all haven't watched an anime in the last decade or more, I take it? If you've ever watched one at all ofc.

Deku is the hero name of the protagonist of My Hero Academia, Izuku Midoriya. Powers include super strength and strength-based speed for the most part, though he gets some weirder powers later due to his actual powerset being "power inheritance". He received his powers from his mentor, who received his powers from his mentor, etc. and there's a whole "all your powers combined" thing going on. I know these days he has like weak flight, some shadow tendrils ability, etc. but the super strength is really the big thing.

Notably Deku does not have super DURABILITY (or at least his durability lags behind his strength), which is a bit of an issue when he's facing off against...

Asta, protagonist of Black Clover. Primary powerset is summoning swords with antimagic abilities. The antimagic is not likely to be relevant against Deku (as he does not use magic, and Black Clover does make an explicit distinction between magic and other power sources like ki, or just "natural" superhuman physical abilities).

What is relevant is that Asta has ridiculous speed feats, super-fast flight, and a modicum of super strength AND durability of his own. He's not a city-destroyer like Deku (maybe, I'm a bit behind on both series) but when he uses his demon form (antimagic is sourced from a demon living in his spellbook, is the cliff notes version) he's at least a "hill buster", which is more than enough to cream poor Deku from what I know about his late-series abilities, and I genuinely think he has enough durability to tank Deku's best shot and still be in fighting shape, even if he would be grievously injured.

The tossup might be that last I checked in Asta's demon form is a limited time ability, while I think Deku has overcome his own similar limitations on that front and can maintain his superpowered form basically indefinitely.

Without his demon form Asta is built like a brick ****house and does have some low superhuman feats of strength, but it's more like Captain America going up against Luke Cage.

If Deku DOES still have a time limit to his powers, the dramatic finish coming down to Asta and Deku no powers is overwhelmingly in Asta's favor. Deku gets his ass beat no shot, because Asta is, again, built like a brick ****house and has pretty impressive fighting skills while Deku as a powerless combatant is...competent? But not exemplary. Asta's whole thing is he achieved Charles Atlas Superpowers even BEFORE he got actual superpowers. Deku was a reasonably fit highschool Freshman who was given uncontrollable super strength.

A picture comparison of the characters' physiques:

*Spoiler*
Show



Deku: 

Asta: 


The thematic connection is that both are people born into settings where they lack the main power source of their setting. In Deku's case, comic book style superpowers known as Quirks, and in Asta's case...magic.

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## tyckspoon

> *Spoiler: Still not sure why we're supposed to hide these*
> Show
> 
> The only "Deku" I know off the top of my head is the little shrubby guys from _Zelda_ games I haven't played yet. No earthly idea what an "Asta" could be.


*Spoiler*
Show

 The protagonists of My Hero Academia and Black Clover, respectively.
Deku exists in a world where virtually everybody has a Quirk - a superpower or mutation unique to themselves that allows them to perform some kind of supernatural feat. Deku, on the other hand, is Quirkless, and has grown up being bullied for it. Despite that he still dreams to be a hero, and his personality and drive to heroism leads the greatest Hero of the age to make Deku his successor, planting a seed of his own Quirk into Deku to grow and give the formerly Quirkless boy the chance to fulfill his dreams. Initially it appears this is a pretty generic Shonen Fightan Anime power - enhanced speed, durability, power, but basically used for punching things harder-better-faster - but it eventually is found that the previous bearers of the Quirk also leave their own Quirks mixed into the transferrable one, so Deku gets access to a suite of effects that are a lot less obvious and easy to predict.

Asta wants to be a mage. THE mage, in fact. The Wizard King, a figure of legend in his world who unified the land, established the great laws, subdued the most dangerous monsters, etc, etc. Only Asta is not a mage. Asta is not even poor mage. Asta has no natural mana and lacks the capacity to do magic altogether. But he stumbles upon a grimoire, a spellbook, that he -can- use; it's attached to the energy of AntiMagic. Which naturally saps mana and would incapacitate a mage, but Asta isn't a mage. This allows Asta to negate magical attacks, constructions, and enchantments, and since Everybody Else in the world uses magic, suddenly Asta can play with the big boys. The Antimagic can be used to reinforce his body as well, but it's mostly for smashing through magic so Asta can punch and/or sword problems in the face.

.. unless they arbitrarily declare that Quirk effects are 'magic' I think this is probably a walkover for Deku? Admittedly have not followed most of Black Clover to see if they get into the usual kind of no sense of scale events that will result in declaring that Asta's antimagic sword can release 100,000 TeraJoules of energy or whatever, but unless he's allowed to negate Deku's Quirks it basically comes down to brawling, and I'm pretty sure Deku's superhero-inspired milieu just does that better.

----------


## Delicious Taffy

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> it says something that I've only watched Black Clover up to episode 6 or so and somehow I'm the only one who knows anything about him.


*Spoiler*
Show

Yeah, it says you watch different anime.

As for the actual latest Death Battle... The analysis for both characters felt like a bunch of name-drops (moreso than usual), but at least I learned a little bit about _ Warcraft_ . Although now I'm just interested in seeing who they'd match Zenos from _Final Fantasy 14_ against. Shouldn't be too hard to find a sword-obsessed wild animal in a world of badass fantasy fighters.





> Y'all haven't watched an anime in the last decade or more, I take it? If you've ever watched one at all ofc.


I mean, I've watched plenty. Just not these specific two. Well, that's not entirely true, I did watch the first few episodes of Deku's anime, but didn't care for it enough to remember his name. More recent ones I've seen aren't quite in the same genre, like _Re:Zero_ or _Dragon Ball Super_, but I'll admit that my tastes do run a little more "retro" with more emphasis on computers and spooky-type vibes. _Ghost in the Shell_, _.hack//_, _Yu-Gi-Oh!_, that sorta thing.

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## Rynjin

> .. unless they arbitrarily declare that Quirk effects are 'magic' I think this is probably a walkover for Deku? Admittedly have not followed most of Black Clover to see if they get into the usual kind of no sense of scale events that will result in declaring that Asta's antimagic sword can release 100,000 TeraJoules of energy or whatever, but unless he's allowed to negate Deku's Quirks it basically comes down to brawling, and I'm pretty sure Deku's superhero-inspired milieu just does that better.


An important factor to note about antimagic in Black Clover is that it's established pretty early in that antimagic is NOT just "magic negation" or "the absence of magic", it is a power source of its own. As antimatter is to matter, antimagic is to magic.

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## Keltest

> New battle is out.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: This time*
> Show
> 
> The ultimate power scaling hogwash. The outcome is pretty much decided by comparing two completely unrelated characters from each world, using rather dubious feats. The actual feats performed by the combatants are not considered, nor is there any explanation why feats of other related characters are not taken into account, for example Nerzhul - who has a far more immediate connection to Arthas - accidentally ripping apart a whole planet.
> 
> The connection Osse to Sauron is especially suspect. It is like saying Hephaestus and Poseidon can do the same things. At least for Guldan and Arthas there is some vague connection, but no explanation why Arthas should not be *way* stronger than the guy who lost to the guy whom Arthas (pre power-up!) handily defeated.


*Spoiler: This Time*
Show

Gul'Dan is just flat out a stronger warlock than Ner'Zhul is a mage. Ner'Zhul didnt cast one spell to rip apart his planet, he cast one spell several times in quick succession in close proximity and they interacted badly, while he was empowered by two different demonic artifacts using a spellbook of the greatest mage in living memory. It was a decidedly one off event. Outside of that, Ner'Zhul is basically just an orc mage, and not a great one.

Its also really unclear how Illidan scales up to Gul'dan, but they have inherently different power sets, and Illidan was a sorcerer well before he consumed the Skull of Gul'dan.

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## Forum Explorer

> Arthas didnt have any wiggle room either. By dawn the entire city was going to be turned into an undead horde lead by a dread lord. There wasnt room for gentle debate and careful reflection. With every minute that passed more undead were raised and joining the forces of evil. Imagine facing an army invading america, then learning the entire population of LA is going to be converted overnight into more troops and you have no way to reverse it. Thats what Arthas was dealing with. Had they not wiped out the city, all of lorderan would have fallen to the overwhelming number of undead. He was honestly the most clear headed leader there.


Sure, but he couldn't _know_ that. He knew the disease was in the city sure, but he didn't know how many people were sick, how much time he had, or the fatality rate of the disease. He made the correct decision as the answer was everyone, no time at all, and 100%, but he didn't know that answer, he assumed and was 'lucky' enough to be correct. 

Also he didn't have to jump to the whole 'you are either with me or against me.' He didn't need to burn that bridge quite so thoroughly. 





> New battle is out.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: This time*
> Show
> 
> The ultimate power scaling hogwash. The outcome is pretty much decided by comparing two completely unrelated characters from each world, using rather dubious feats. The actual feats performed by the combatants are not considered, nor is there any explanation why feats of other related characters are not taken into account, for example Nerzhul - who has a far more immediate connection to Arthas - accidentally ripping apart a whole planet.
> 
> The connection Osse to Sauron is especially suspect. It is like saying Hephaestus and Poseidon can do the same things. At least for Guldan and Arthas there is some vague connection, but no explanation why Arthas should not be *way* stronger than the guy who lost to the guy whom Arthas (pre power-up!) handily defeated.
> ...


*Spoiler: This time*
Show

To be fair, Sauron also tanked those same islands being destroyed which is a much more direct feat than anything we get for Arthras. Plus he mindcontrolled the millions of people on that island to begin with for another direct feat.

 Also they did talk about Ner'zhul: basically it required prep time, special materials no longer available, a group of followers, and was a chain reaction of the spell backfiring over time and thus it couldn't be determined of how powerful that actually made Ner'zhul since so much of it wasn't his own power 


*Spoiler: Next time*
Show

My money is on Deku. Asta's main thing is shutting down other people's magic which Deku has none of. And yeah, Asta's still pretty strong regardless, but from what I remember he isn't as strong as Deku is. Let alone the other half dozen Quirks Deku gets to play with.

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## Rynjin

The main thing is that I know how DB logic works, and I can tell you with absolute certainty they're going to give lightspeed movement to Asta as a feat because he fought a dude with explicit power over the "element" of Light and was able to dodge his attacks.

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## HolyDraconus

> Sure, but he couldn't _know_ that. He knew the disease was in the city sure, but he didn't know how many people were sick, how much time he had, or the fatality rate of the disease. He made the correct decision as the answer was everyone, no time at all, and 100%, but he didn't know that answer, he assumed and was 'lucky' enough to be correct. 
> 
> Also he didn't have to jump to the whole 'you are either with me or against me.' He didn't need to burn that bridge quite so thoroughly. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Spoiler: This time*
> Show
> ...


Pretty sure Asta got this. Late game spoilers for both series *Spoiler*
Show

 they both have forms of their worlds traits. With deku having his taken and asta being anti but still magic
.
Endgame Deku has several quirks and his stamina shot way up, while late game asta has him straight up precog'd fights on top of using ki

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## awa

*Spoiler: last time*
Show

I was surprised how few feats arthas had considering how many comics and books warcraft has had over the years. Almost all of his Feats were just other people doing stuff off screen.


*Spoiler: Next time*
Show

 Asta once fought a guy who shoots lasers which obviously means he faster than the speed of light.

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## theNater

> Arthas didnt have any wiggle room either.


He must have had a little wiggle room, given that he was able to succeed in his objectives despite sending away a significant chunk of his forces, and still had enough troops left to launch an immediate naval expedition.  In hindsight, it is clear he could have spared an hour to try to come up with a better plan.

You can argue he didn't know that, but that just highlights his main problem: his arrogance.  He assumes his first guess must be correct, and that anyone who suggests otherwise must be an enemy.  It's that same arrogance that led to him taking up an obviously cursed blade, and his subsequent destruction of Lordaeron.

----------


## Seppl

> *Spoiler: This Time*
> Show
> 
> Gul'Dan is just flat out a stronger warlock than Ner'Zhul is a mage. Ner'Zhul didnt cast one spell to rip apart his planet, he cast one spell several times in quick succession in close proximity and they interacted badly, while he was empowered by two different demonic artifacts using a spellbook of the greatest mage in living memory. It was a decidedly one off event. Outside of that, Ner'Zhul is basically just an orc mage, and not a great one.
> 
> Its also really unclear how Illidan scales up to Gul'dan, but they have inherently different power sets, and Illidan was a sorcerer well before he consumed the Skull of Gul'dan.


*Spoiler: this time*
Show

My complaint is less about the exact choice of feats by other characters but more about the extreme abuse of power scaling in this particular analysis. The actual combatants did not really feature in their own battle. By that logic you could pair almost any character from these setting and get the same result. Sauron scales to Gothmog, Gothmog scales to other Balrogs, other Balrogs scale to Gandalf, Gandalf scales to Saruman, Saruman is killed by Wormtongue, Wormtongue (in the books) is killed by random hobbits. It's consistent, because Frodo is a random hobbit and defeats Sauron. Ergo, any random hobbit beats Arthas.

Or by that same logic, Tulkas is far stronger than all other Valar combined, because he readily and repeatedly beat up Morgoth, whom the others could not handle. But that feat only happens because Tulkas is the god of fisticuffs, whereas Morgoth is the god of teenage rebellion. The actual characters and their abilities must be considered in these kind of analyses, not the energy output of some side-character whom they never met, and at best know by four degrees of separation.

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## awa

> *Spoiler: this time*
> Show
> 
> My complaint is less about the exact choice of feats by other characters but more about the extreme abuse of power scaling in this particular analysis. The actual combatants did not really feature in their own battle. By that logic you could pair almost any character from these setting and get the same result. Sauron scales to Gothmog, Gothmog scales to other Balrogs, other Balrogs scale to Gandalf, Gandalf scales to Saruman, Saruman is killed by Wormtongue, Wormtongue (in the books) is killed by random hobbits. It's consistent, because Frodo is a random hobbit and defeats Sauron. Ergo, any random hobbit beats Arthas.
> 
> Or by that same logic, Tulkas is far stronger than all other Valar combined, because he readily and repeatedly beat up Morgoth, whom the others could not handle. But that feat only happens because Tulkas is the god of fisticuffs, whereas Morgoth is the god of teenage rebellion. The actual characters and their abilities must be considered in these kind of analyses, not the energy output of some side-character whom they never met, and at best know by four degrees of separation.


*Spoiler*
Show

further the ability to go ghost and survive a sinking island tells us little about his ability to survive a soul maiming magic sword. We know that sauron can be driven off by physical damage  because him being beaten in a sword fight is a canonical loss for him


I'm not certain they got the wrong answer I'm just unimpressed with how they got that answer. Though looking at it, sauron does not do much fighting in the lotr materials I'm aware of, and assuming the lich kings lack of book and comic exploits means he was simply absent from those materials to a greater degree than I was aware of these might have just been bad contestants neither one actually having done enough on screen to remotely judge them by their own merits.

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## Keltest

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> further the ability to go ghost and survive a sinking island tells us little about his ability to survive a soul maiming magic sword. We know that sauron can be driven off by physical damage  because him being beaten in a sword fight is a canonical loss for him
> 
> 
> I'm not certain they got the wrong answer I'm just unimpressed with how they got that answer. Though looking at it, sauron does not do much fighting in the lotr materials I'm aware of, and assuming the lich kings lack of book and comic exploits means he was simply absent from those materials to a greater degree than I was aware of these might have just been bad contestants neither one actually having done enough on screen to remotely judge them by their own merits.


Arthas as an individual literally sat on the Frozen Throne until the beginning of Wrath of the Lich King. You can actually see him covered in ice in the launch cinematic.

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## awa

> Arthas as an individual literally sat on the Frozen Throne until the beginning of Wrath of the Lich King. You can actually see him covered in ice in the launch cinematic.


That disappoints me for some reason, not certain why.

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## Keltest

> That disappoints me for some reason, not certain why.


Eh. The Scourge is his weapon, he doesnt need to personally raise every zombie or skeleton. Besides, he's immortal. He doesnt need to move until he's ready.

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## Traab

> He must have had a little wiggle room, given that he was able to succeed in his objectives despite sending away a significant chunk of his forces, and still had enough troops left to launch an immediate naval expedition.  In hindsight, it is clear he could have spared an hour to try to come up with a better plan.
> 
> You can argue he didn't know that, but that just highlights his main problem: his arrogance.  He assumes his first guess must be correct, and that anyone who suggests otherwise must be an enemy.  It's that same arrogance that led to him taking up an obviously cursed blade, and his subsequent destruction of Lordaeron.


What? No. He was able to succeed in his objective because most of the city wasnt turned yet meaning he just had to fight off malganis and his limited forces while wiping out the city himself. Had he waited, the numbers would have kept changing until he was over run. It wasnt arrogance that made him say "kill them all, its the only way." It was the total lack of any other viable options. Jaina didnt have any idea for curing the plague, nor did uther. And its not like they just discovered the plague right then, they had days from the last undead swarm to try and figure out how it worked (the plagued grain) and how to stop it (no idea) And after stratholme he was alone with nothing but his obsession with the monster that had killed his people, endangered his kingdom, and turned his friends and loved ones against him. Its not surprising it was a fast downward spiral from there.

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## Talakeal

Another thing people don't often think about is that Arthas had just been through Hearthglen.

This is pretty much a literal "night of the living dead" situation where he spent the entire night holed up in a small town watching his allies get killed one by one by a vast undead horde with no hope of victory. Uther and a legion of knights rescued them at the last moment, but that sort of trauma doesn't easily go away, and I don't think Arthas has had a chance to rest since then, meaning he has been up for at least two days of almost nonstop battle.

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## theNater

> What? No. He was able to succeed in his objective because most of the city wasnt turned yet meaning he just had to fight off malganis and his limited forces while wiping out the city himself. Had he waited, the numbers would have kept changing until he was over run.


How long would it have taken for the numbers to change enough that he couldn't succeed?  A minute?  An hour?  A day?  Because, however much it is, that's wiggle room.




> It wasnt arrogance that made him say "kill them all, its the only way." It was the total lack of any other viable options. Jaina didnt have any idea for curing the plague, nor did uther.


It was arrogance that made him refuse to even consider looking for other viable options.  Heck, he stood to lose nothing by saying "I'm going to start my plan, you're welcome to join me when you realize I'm right."




> And its not like they just discovered the plague right then, they had days from the last undead swarm to try and figure out how it worked (the plagued grain) and how to stop it (no idea) And after stratholme he was alone with nothing but his obsession with the monster that had killed his people, endangered his kingdom, and turned his friends and loved ones against him. Its not surprising it was a fast downward spiral from there.


Mal'ganis didn't make him try to pull rank on Uther.  Arthas accused Uther of treason all on his own.

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## Keltest

> How long would it have taken for the numbers to change enough that he couldn't succeed?  A minute?  An hour?  A day?  Because, however much it is, that's wiggle room.


To do what? Cure the plague that all the wizards of Dalaran and the Paladins of the Silver Hand hadn't cured up until that point? Is he supposed to just wave his magic fairy wand and fix the problem some other way?

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## Rynjin

TBF that does seem to be how magic works in the Warcraft universe, people just have to clap their hands until they believe hard enough for anything to happen.

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## Forum Explorer

> *Spoiler: this time*
> Show
> 
> My complaint is less about the exact choice of feats by other characters but more about the extreme abuse of power scaling in this particular analysis. The actual combatants did not really feature in their own battle. By that logic you could pair almost any character from these setting and get the same result. Sauron scales to Gothmog, Gothmog scales to other Balrogs, other Balrogs scale to Gandalf, Gandalf scales to Saruman, Saruman is killed by Wormtongue, Wormtongue (in the books) is killed by random hobbits. It's consistent, because Frodo is a random hobbit and defeats Sauron. Ergo, any random hobbit beats Arthas.
> 
> Or by that same logic, Tulkas is far stronger than all other Valar combined, because he readily and repeatedly beat up Morgoth, whom the others could not handle. But that feat only happens because Tulkas is the god of fisticuffs, whereas Morgoth is the god of teenage rebellion. The actual characters and their abilities must be considered in these kind of analyses, not the energy output of some side-character whom they never met, and at best know by four degrees of separation.


That's always a problem with Death Battle though. And this time is honestly one of their better ones. We do get some good direct feats about Sauron surviving the islands being destroyed or setting off a volcano. 




> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> further the ability to go ghost and survive a sinking island tells us little about his ability to survive a soul maiming magic sword. We know that sauron can be driven off by physical damage  because him being beaten in a sword fight is a canonical loss for him
> 
> 
> I'm not certain they got the wrong answer I'm just unimpressed with how they got that answer. Though looking at it, sauron does not do much fighting in the lotr materials I'm aware of, and assuming the lich kings lack of book and comic exploits means he was simply absent from those materials to a greater degree than I was aware of these might have just been bad contestants neither one actually having done enough on screen to remotely judge them by their own merits.


I think Shadows of Mordor has Sauron pretty easily shrug off soul damaging attacks, IIRC. Also considering it was the high god of the setting that smote those islands, there's a pretty significant chance that it was more than just mundane force. 




> To do what? Cure the plague that all the wizards of Dalaran and the Paladins of the Silver Hand hadn't cured up until that point? Is he supposed to just wave his magic fairy wand and fix the problem some other way?


He could've started quarantining civilians and putting them into locations where it would be easy to kill them if they zombified, but if they didn't, they'd actually have a chance to live.

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## theNater

> To do what? Cure the plague that all the wizards of Dalaran and the Paladins of the Silver Hand hadn't cured up until that point? Is he supposed to just wave his magic fairy wand and fix the problem some other way?


You seem to be confused about the claim I am making.  I am NOT claiming there was another way.

I am pointing out that Arthas refused to consider the possibility there might be.  That he was unwilling to even entertain the notion that he might be wrong.  That is a dangerous form of arrogance, and it is the driving force behind Arthas' downfall.

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## Traab

> You seem to be confused about the claim I am making.  I am NOT claiming there was another way.
> 
> I am pointing out that Arthas refused to consider the possibility there might be.  That he was unwilling to even entertain the notion that he might be wrong.  That is a dangerous form of arrogance, and it is the driving force behind Arthas' downfall.


I honestly dont think it was portrayed as arrogance so much as desperation. They were on the back foot the entire time leading up to this moment. They were ambushed at hearthglen where they finally learned, sort of, what was going on. The cult of the damned were spreading plagued grain everywhere to turn the citizens of lorderan into undead monsters. And the change happens quickly. Like overnight or less quickly. They knew where the grain was going, but couldnt get there in time to stop it from being distributed throughout the whole city. The whole city was infected and they were able to tell that it was too late. They all knew the people would turn into undead that night, and worse, that malganis was inside the city actively killing the people so they would rise right away as undead. THERE. WAS. NO. TIME for hopes and prayers. If they were going to do anything they had to act right away or by morning the entire population was going to be an undead army. This wasnt even JUST the plagued grain itself infecting people. Again, there was a dread lord inside the walls wiping out the people. And its not that arthas refused to hear other options, its that his companions, his friends, the people he trusted, were trying to tell him not to do this but offering no other options in return. Doing nothing is not an option. Part of being a leader is seeing the situation as it is and making a decision on how to handle it. Arthas did that, and it was the right call, both based on the information he had at the time he made it, and also proven right by the events of the night itself. He saved lorderan that night. Or at least saved it long enough to fall by his hands instead once he made the plunge into evil then came back.  :Small Big Grin:

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## Lord Raziere

> TBF that does seem to be how magic works in the Warcraft universe, people just have to clap their hands until they believe hard enough for anything to happen.


Nope, no it isn't.

In Warcraft, Light and Shadow are two of the fundamental six cosmic forces and exist outside of people believing in them, and while they are contradictory they are bound together and cannot exist without each other. the four are Life (druid magic) and Death (necromancy), Order (Arcane) and Disorder (Fel). the Elements that shamans use are basic building blocks of all matter and are separate from those cosmic forces.

like there is an actual system to all this, its just not exposition dumped in universe, because why would it? best summed up in this image:
*Spoiler*
Show




these forces didn't pop into existence because people believed in them, they existed far before them and are rigidly separated out from one another, with light not being able to do shadow things and vice-versa, I do not see how you could come to that conclusion, magic isn't some undifferentiated energy like in some universes it has a complex separation of power and what each kind of magic is able to do.

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## Rynjin

Despite power sources being nominally separate, power is entirely arbitrary and plot based. The plot demanded Uther not be able to cure the plague, so he couldn't.

If the plot had instead demanded he be able to, he would have been.

There's no hard and fast rules for magic in the Warcraft universe except for those vague "spell school" divisions, and even then there's wiggle room.

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## Lord Raziere

> Despite power sources being nominally separate, power is entirely arbitrary and plot based. The plot demanded Uther not be able to cure the plague, so he couldn't.
> 
> If the plot had instead demanded he be able to, he would have been.
> 
> There's no hard and fast rules for magic in the Warcraft universe except for those vague "spell school" divisions, and even then there's wiggle room.


That is hardly evidence in favor of your previous claim.

if the rules of magic change randomly, that is not indication of it being dependent on belief. belief-based magic systems inherently have a confirmation bias effect built in: no one would ever suspect that magic can't do something because they'd expect magic to solve all their problems, and thus would assume and thus believe that the plague could be cured from the start and thus cure it because they believe it. it doesn't happen therefore their belief has proven wrong, therefore not dependent on belief. thus any belief based magic system would be inherently consistent as it would default to people never knowing they can't do something with it.

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## Rynjin

I didn't say it was a belief based system, I just tongue in-cheekly used a trope name to denote How meaningless I think it is to discuss what magic in Warcraft is and is not capable if. It's capable of anything, or nothing, pretty much arbitrarily.

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## Keltest

Curiously, Light magic actually is belief based, in that you need to believe your cause to be just to use it. It doesn't change the powers you get, but it is the entry fee.

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## theNater

> And its not that arthas refused to hear other options, its that his companions, his friends, the people he trusted, were trying to tell him not to do this but offering no other options in return.


Uther: There's got to be some other way!
Arthas: Damn it, Uther! As your future king, I order you to purge this city!

That is very much Arthas refusing to hear other options.  And, I remind you, this is within 15 seconds of Uther and Jaina learning that the plague turns its victims.




> I didn't say it was a belief based system, I just tongue in-cheekly used a trope name to denote How meaningless I think it is to discuss what magic in Warcraft is and is not capable if. It's capable of anything, or nothing, pretty much arbitrarily.


Yeah, sometimes you can really see that the story is being written by game designers and computer programmers working from a "gameplay first" standpoint.  Which generally works out pretty well for the gameplay, but results in some inconsistencies in the lore and magic systems.

----------


## awa

> Uther: There's got to be some other way!
> Arthas: Damn it, Uther! As your future king, I order you to purge this city!
> 
> That is very much Arthas refusing to hear other options.  And, I remind you, this is within 15 seconds of Uther and Jaina learning that the plague turns its victims.
> 
> 
> Yeah, sometimes you can really see that the story is being written by game designers and computer programmers working from a "gameplay first" standpoint.  Which generally works out pretty well for the gameplay, but results in some inconsistencies in the lore and magic systems.


To be fair uther didn't give him another option just stated that their "must" be one because he really wanted their to be one. I will note at no point in the mission does Uther return and say hey I figured out a way to fix this he just leaves.

----------


## theNater

> To be fair uther didn't give him another option just stated that their "must" be one because he really wanted their to be one.


Similarly, Arthas didn't look for another option because he really wanted there not to be one.  This is the arrogance I'm referring to; in his mind, the first idea that popped into his head _must_ be correct.

----------


## Keltest

> Similarly, Arthas didn't look for another option because he really wanted there not to be one.  This is the arrogance I'm referring to; in his mind, the first idea that popped into his head _must_ be correct.


Arthas didnt look for another option because the circumstances were very carefully and specifically constructed to not allow him to do so. He isnt a crazy person looking to butcher an entire city for kicks, its the last thing he wants to be doing, but Mal'Ganis and the Lich King were manipulating him very specifically.

----------


## awa

> Similarly, Arthas didn't look for another option because he really wanted there not to be one.  This is the arrogance I'm referring to; in his mind, the first idea that popped into his head _must_ be correct.


Yeah, I don't agree, he had a hard time limit, you can lose the mission by taking too long. If someone else had presented him with another option even a risky alternative, then Maby I would buy their interpretation, but no one has any alternatives. If halfway through that mission someone had shown up and said look, I found a cure we don't need to do this and he still killed everyone anyway I might buy it, but they don't.




> Arthas didnt look for another option because the circumstances were very carefully and specifically constructed to not allow him to do so. He isnt a crazy person looking to butcher an entire city for kicks, its the last thing he wants to be doing, but Mal'Ganis and the Lich King were manipulating him very specifically.


Yes this wasn't an organic situation it was a contrived by the scourge every choice is the wrong one. If Arthas had chosen to do nothing they would have had a giant army of undead to set up another contrived problem and they could keep doing so until he made the "right" choice.

----------


## Lurkmoar

I don't see Stratholme as Arthas falling, to me that was just a necessary step to lead him to the cliff. Killing the citizens was a mercy, considering what Mal'Ganis was planning on doing with them.

I feel his betrayal and murder for the mercenaries he hired and leaving Bronzebeard to die were worse. 

As for the Death Battle, did Sauron win? If not, he should have  :Small Tongue:

----------


## awa

> I don't see Stratholme as Arthas falling, to me that was just a necessary step to lead him to the cliff. Killing the citizens was a mercy, considering what Mal'Ganis was planning on doing with them.
> 
> I feel his betrayal and murder for the mercenaries he hired and leaving Bronzebeard to die were worse. 
> :


I agree those were the acts of no return, even in hindsight I can't think of what could have been done to save the city; but betraying the mercenaries there were a lot of other choices he could have made there including just going home getting more troops and coming back.

----------


## Talakeal

> I don't see Stratholme as Arthas falling, to me that was just a necessary step to lead him to the cliff. Killing the citizens was a mercy, considering what Mal'Ganis was planning on doing with them.
> 
> I feel his betrayal and murder for the mercenaries he hired and leaving Bronzebeard to die were worse. 
> 
> As for the Death Battle, did Sauron win? If not, he should have


Yes. Sauron won.

Agreed, betraying the mercenaries is much harder to justify.

 Best I can come up with is a sort of ethical sunk cost fallacy, telling himself that if he didnt stop Malganus then Stratholme was for nothing.

----------


## Keltest

> Yes. Sauron won.
> 
> Agreed, betraying the mercenaries is much harder to justify.
> 
>  Best I can come up with is a sort of ethical sunk cost fallacy, telling himself that if he didnt stop Malganus then Stratholme was for nothing.


At that point, Arthas was after vengeance, full stop. He even admits it to Muradin right before claiming Frostmourne.

----------


## theNater

> Arthas didnt look for another option because the circumstances were very carefully and specifically constructed to not allow him to do so.


Uther is facing literally the same circumstances, but is able to look for another option.  What difference between Uther and Arthas makes Arthas unable?




> If someone else had presented him with another option even a risky alternative, then Maby I would buy their interpretation, but no one has any alternatives.


Arthas accused Uther of treason for believing there might be such an option.  People would naturally be reluctant to present an alternative after that, for fear of similar accusations.




> As for the Death Battle, did Sauron win? If not, he should have


*Spoiler: Last Time*
Show

Yeah, Sauron took it.

Death Battle overemphasized some sketchy math, but at the end of the day Sauron had two main advantages:

1)He could go incorporeal, in a way Arthas had no real counter to.
2)Frostmourne is easier to destroy and a more obvious target than The One Ring.

----------


## Talakeal

> Uther is facing literally the same circumstances, but is able to look for another option.  What difference between Uther and Arthas makes Arthas unable?


Arthas was a lot closer to the situation. He had seen the true horror of the Scourge, and been stripped of his idealism.

----------


## Keltest

> Arthas was a lot closer to the situation. He had seen the true horror of the Scourge, and been stripped of his idealism.


More to the point, he was specifically sent to investigate the plague and devise a solution. He was, literally, the royally appointed expert on the matter for the kingdom, and the prince as well. While the technical legalities are never explained, the game treats it as legitimate that he can give orders to royal knights like Uther and expect them to be carried out, so Uther rejecting his direct order (and explicitly rejecting the authority of the king to give that order as well) really would be treason in that circumstance, even if the reaction was extreme.

----------


## awa

> Uther is facing literally the same circumstances, but is able to look for another option.  What difference between Uther and Arthas makes Arthas unable?
> 
> 
> Arthas accused Uther of treason for believing there might be such an option.  People would naturally be reluctant to present an alternative after that, for fear of similar accusations.
> [/spoiler]


Looking for a solution is not the same thing as finding a solution. Uthar is willing to let every one around him because he cant bear to make a hard decision and arthas can't that's the difference. 

 When he leaves with jania one of two things happens he simply quits and stops looking for a solution or he keeps looking for a solution and never finds one. At no time does he arrive on the map and say wait arthas you can stop killing civilians we have found the cure or anything equivalent we have no reason to believe a cure was ever found and certainly not within the extremely short window we have before the city was turned. Remember that particular mission literally has a time limit, if you don't kill the people fast enough you lose.

He accused uthar of treason for refusing to obey orders, uthar never gave an alternative, uthar just said that their must be an alternative because he wanted their to be an alternative. There is a difference between Here is a reasonably plan and course of action for you to consider and I refuse to obey orders in a life or death situation.

----------


## theNater

> Arthas was a lot closer to the situation. He had seen the true horror of the Scourge, and been stripped of his idealism.


So he was lashing out violently, due to fear?




> While the technical legalities are never explained, the game treats it as legitimate that he can give orders to royal knights like Uther and expect them to be carried out, so Uther rejecting his direct order (and explicitly rejecting the authority of the king to give that order as well) really would be treason in that circumstance, even if the reaction was extreme.


"You are not my king yet, boy!" is our indicator that Arthas is not officially authorized to give Uther orders.  Uther adding that he wouldn't follow the order even if it came from an official authority highlights that Arthas isn't one.




> Looking for a solution is not the same thing as finding a solution.


Correct!  I'm not claiming Arthas could have found another solution, I'm suggesting he should have taken _literally any time at all_ to look for one.  Or even ask Uther to do it while he starts!  It doesn't take any longer to tell Uther "I'm starting now, you're welcome to join me when you realize alternate plans are hopeless" than it does to say "I hereby relieve you of your command and suspend your paladins from service", but Arthas goes with the latter.

----------


## awa

> So he was lashing out violently, due to fear?
> 
> 
> "You are not my king yet, boy!" is our indicator that Arthas is not officially authorized to give Uther orders.  Uther adding that he wouldn't follow the order even if it came from an official authority highlights that Arthas isn't one.
> 
> 
> Correct!  I'm not claiming Arthas could have found another solution, I'm suggesting he should have taken _literally any time at all_ to look for one.  Or even ask Uther to do it while he starts!  It doesn't take any longer to tell Uther "I'm starting now, you're welcome to join me when you realize alternate plans are hopeless" than it does to say "I hereby relieve you of your command and suspend your paladins from service", but Arthas goes with the latter.


Except the mission is literally on a timer if you waste 10 minutes at the start of that mission you will almost certainly lose. Literally every minute you waste leaves you closer to annihilation, considering they don't even have the slightest inkling of a plan that might even hypothetical work. We are risking the fate of the world on the off chance that we can brainstorm up a plan that *A* has sufficient odds of working *B* we have the capacity to put into play and *C* time remaining after the brainstorming session to put into play. Assuming an alternative is even possible which is definitely not a given if anyone of those things is not true we lose, also keep in mind the opportunity cost if you send 10 minutes brain storming an idea you had better hope figured out a viable plan in that time because now stopping the problem with swords is no longer on the table.

 given the information he had available at the time arthas made the right call, uthar would have waited till the entire city was destroyed and the country was doomed because he can't make hard choices. That's why the villains plan was so clever they created a situation where nothing arthas could have done was the right choice. Either he kills the city alienates his friends and emotionally cripples himself leading to his latter problems, or an unstoppable army of undead rampages across the land killing all his friends because he was to weak to make the hard choice.

----------


## theNater

> Except the mission is literally on a timer if you waste 10 minutes at the start of that mission you will almost certainly lose.


You realize that real-life time and in-game time are different, right?  That a mission that takes half an hour to play will go through the day-night cycle multiple times?  One real-life minute would provide significant in-game time to discuss options, and the scenario would certainly still be winnable, if more difficult.

----------


## Talakeal

> So he was lashing out violently, due to fear?


Not the way I would put it, but close enough.

I would say its more desperation than fear.

Uther still had the luxury of naivety.



Ultimately Uther was wrong. Lorderan would fall to the scourge without ever finding a cure and he would die with it. They wouldn't find a cure until some nine years later during Wrath of the Lich King pre patch event, and even that was iffy.

I suppose the only correct choice for Arthas would have been to listen to Medivh and simply abandon his kingdom and travel to Kalimdor, but that doesnt seem like a great choice either, and certainly out of character for him.

----------


## Seppl

> You realize that real-life time and in-game time are different, right?  That a mission that takes half an hour to play will go through the day-night cycle multiple times?  One real-life minute would provide significant in-game time to discuss options, and the scenario would certainly still be winnable, if more difficult.


Still, the situation is the same. Even one night is not enough to put into action a yet unknown miracle plan. And they know that they probably have less than a night. They too, cannot see the timer, they do not know exactly when the city will fall, only that it will happen very soon, before the night is over. Every minute counts.

If the conversation happened at the start of the campaign, it could have been reversed and would still have been in character for both:

*Arthas*: Oh no. It's too late. These people have all been infected. They may look fine now, but it's a matter of time before they turn into the undead.
*Uther*: Then this entire city must be purged.
*Arthas*: How can you even consider that? There's got to be some other way!
*Uther*: Boy! Arthas, as our future king, _you must be prepared to make hard decisions. You cannot always save everyone._
*Arthas*: Damn it, Uther. _These people are citizens of Lordaeron, attacking them _ is an act of treason.
*Uther*: Treason? Have you lost your mind, Arthas? _By morning this whole city will have turned undead, they will destroy all of Lordaeron. Now, give the command or I will do it myself!_
*Arthas*: Lord Uther, by my right of succession and sovereignty of my crown, I hereby relieve you from your command and suspend your paladins from service.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Still, the situation is the same. Even one night is not enough to put into action a yet unknown miracle plan. And they know that they probably have less than a night. They too, cannot see the timer, they do not know exactly when the city will fall, only that it will happen very soon, before the night is over. Every minute counts.
> 
> If the conversation happened at the start of the campaign, it could have been reversed and would still have been in character for both:
> 
> *Arthas*: Oh no. It's too late. These people have all been infected. They may look fine now, but it's a matter of time before they turn into the undead.
> *Uther*: Then this entire city must be purged.
> *Arthas*: How can you even consider that? There's got to be some other way!
> *Uther*: Boy! Arthas, as our future king, _you must be prepared to make hard decisions. You cannot always save everyone._
> *Arthas*: Damn it, Uther. _These people are citizens of Lordaeron, attacking them _ is an act of treason.
> ...


I mean all this tells me is that Uther didn't have much of a character to begin with if he could agree with completely opposite positions without any character development. Arthas at least has an arc where he is specifically trying to save people and it gets twisted by the trauma and pain he suffers into doing stupid decision after stupid decision until a cursed sword just turns him evil entirely. Uther just remains the same regardless, so while Arthas has the excuse of a descent, Uther just seems oddly inconsistent/unprincipled for a paladin if thats true. If he was truly in support of the king morality your talking about here, wouldn't he simply trust his prince that he knows something he doesn't and support him even though the decision looks horrible on the outside so that at least he can help him not go too far off the deep end while doing such hard decisions in canon? 

while a king morality Uther wouldn't make sense with the canonical morality/position he espouses: that he can't just kill an entire city based on mere suspicion when things seem fine. to him it looks like Arthas has suddenly gone crazy tyrant king on people like a Targaryen from Game of Thrones telling him to burn the city just because, and unlike game of thrones Warcraft has some measure of heroic fantasy morality at play, so things like paladins defying their king or not all the kings orders being good ones aren't out of the question for this universe. 

the simplest answer is the most probable: that Uther was just _that_ much of a paladin about not wanting to kill innocent people and Warcraft being Warcraft didn't think through the dilemma as much as we did and simply declared that Artha's decision was tragic-bad and Uther's decision was good but useless for drama reasons. because Warcraft largely runs on Hollywood alignment system of which there are only four categories: "Useless Good" (the alignment of all morally good but useless authority figures who chide everyone for not being good enough but inevitably end up defeated), "Reckless Useful" (The morality of all heroes and protagonists where they succeed because the only effective method is improvisation and reckless stunts), "Mustache Twirling Evil" (obvious) and the rare but ever important "Blatantly Falling To Evil" (the alignment of Anakin Sykwalker, Arthas and other such "tragic" figures who seem generically good but then suddenly commit some atrocity out of nowhere because some guy manipulated them and they suddenly get all angry and obsessed with power and doing increasingly worse decisions until they go full evil by putting on black clothing, which they then become MTE as above)

----------


## Lurkmoar

To be fair to Warcraft 3, people played it for the game. The story was just a vessel to bring the set pieces up. In a game, a good story is just gravy to me, not the meat.

Still, it is a little annoying that the writing couldn't have been tighter and deeper.

----------


## Delicious Taffy

Having almost no knowledge of Warcraft in general and none of this scene in particular, here's my best guess on how the scene probably should have gone down, from a strictly optimal standpoint. What this Arthas guy really should have done was hit his buddy Uther with a specially-made weapon from both sides simultaneously, with or without a time stop power (although time stopping probably wouldn't count), until Uther's narrative symbolism kicked in and let him lift infinity, at which point he could third common _Death Battle_ sticking point and won the fight.

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## Traab

The setup for the situation made sense. Arthas was there at hearthglen for the start of the outbreak, and fought for an unknown length of time holding off the undead. I cant remember if there was a mission parameter other than survive till uther showed up. But thats how it ended, with the ever growing undead horde banging down the barricades and nearly killing all his men and the village he was protecting, uther showed up and casually rode them all down. He didnt have the same visceral knowledge of how bad an undead swarm was going forward, he knew it academically but hadnt experienced it like uther had. At this point they knew there was a plague turning people into undead, they had samples of the grain, and they knew where it was going next. they had all that time of riding to stratholme to think of what could be done and came up with goose eggs other than "get there before its too late." They get there and it was too late. Arthas, knowing exactly what was going to happen, and that it would destroy lorderan if it did, made the only workable choice they had. With an entire city of people about to turn into the undead, and a dread lord lurking inside, they couldnt seal the city, if everyone turned they didnt have the men to fight the swarm. All they could do was wipe it out before they could turn. Neither uther nor jaina had any other ideas, just shock at the one arthas came to. Had they actually come up with something, you might have had a point, as even a bad idea would have been an idea. Instead it was just "Oh no! there must be another way!" And considering they had a single night to do anything before it would be too late, they didnt have more time to sit down and think of one. The fact that the undead plague was never cured, even years later, proves arthas made the right call even if nothing else does.

1) Everyone was already infected
2) Nobody had any better ideas to fix this
3) There was no time to stop and think of a better option as within the next 8 hours or so the entire city would be undead
4) Arthas made the right call.

Honestly, whiule I agree the betrayal of the mercs was his gone too far moment, the end of stratholme was his point of no return. By then, after being forced to slaughter an entire city of his people, arthas was obsessed with getting his vengeance on malganis and would do whatever it took to bring him down, the merc murder was just a demonstration of that.

----------


## Lemmy

The issue with Arthas choosing to slaughter the city isn't that he chose to do that when there was no option... It's a combination of two factors:

- He *IMMEDIATELY* went with "slaughter's the only way!"
- He *IMMEDIATELY* declares his friends to be traitors for daring to want to consider other possibilities for half a second.

Did Arthas ultimately choose the right course of action in this instance? Yes. But that's irrelevant... Because he'd have done the same even if there was another solution, simply because he didn't even bother to consider other possibilities for half a second, and also turned on his friends, people who loved and respected him.

At this point, Arthas may not have been completely evil, but he was already a ruthless tyrant.

----------


## Keltest

> The issue with Arthas choosing to slaughter the city isn't that he chose to do that when there was no option... It's a combination of two factors:
> 
> - He *IMMEDIATELY* went with "slaughter's the only way!"
> - He *IMMEDIATELY* declares his friends to be traitors for daring to want to consider other possibilities for half a second.
> 
> Did Arthas ultimately choose the right course of action in this instance? Yes. But that's irrelevant... Because he'd have done the same even if there was another solution, simply because he didn't even bother to consider other possibilities for half a second, and also turned on his friends, people who loved and respected him.
> 
> At this point, Arthas may not have been completely evil, but he was already a ruthless tyrant.


Arthas declares Uther a traitor because Uther explicitly and directly refuses to follow a direct order given to him. It didnt just come out of nowhere.

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## Lord Raziere

> Arthas declares Uther a traitor because Uther explicitly and directly refuses to follow a direct order given to him. It didnt just come out of nowhere.


Yeah but if the Paladin McGood Guy, paragon leader of the McGoodguys is the one disobeying you, that should kind of be a big freaking hint that maybe your direct order isn't the right one. 

traitorousness is only bad if the one your betraying is good. as was demonstrated later, even if Arthas was right to make that decision, Uther was ALSO right to not follow his orders anymore given the evil monster he soon became and how little he was willing to listen to reason.

Edit: furthermore, in the very next mission Arthas is in on Northrend, he gets orders from his father to return from his expedition. which he not only disobeys but burns all the ships to stop anyone else from leaving or white mutinying. meaning Arthas even before he picks up the Frostmourne proves himself a hypocrite: when Uther disobeys orders its traitorous, but its completely fine when he does it by disobeying his father and king in a more extreme manner.

----------


## Delicious Taffy

Had to go fishing for the specific scene, since I never played the game, but in the Reforged version of Warcraft 3, there's apparently less than 2 minutes of dialogue. In order, far as I can tell:

*Spoiler: Scene summary*
Show


- Arthas, Uther, some wizard chick, and like five guys on horseback are walking toward a town.
- Arthas starts to tell Uther something about this plague.
- They rock up to whatever the town is called and see some infected people.
- Arthas says "They look fine now but they're gonna turn soon. Purge the city."
- Uther says "How can you even consider that? There's got to be some other way."
- Arthas doesn't elaborate even slightly, he just pulls his weight as "your future king" and repeats himself about purging.
- Uther pretty much says no and adds that he'd say no even if Arthas was already king.
- Arthas does directly to "The. I must consider this an act of treason."
- Uther asks if Arthas has lost his mind.
- Arthas just says "Have I?" and does a formal relief of command and takes away Uther's paladins.
- Some wizard-lookin' chick gives a mild protest.
- Arthas says "It's done. Come on if you're coming with, everyone else go away."
- Literally every visible non-Arthas character walks off-screen.


So basically what I'm gathering is that they get there, some people are visibly infected, and Arthas goes straight to "You're either with me or against me" without the faintest glimmer of any discussion being had beyond "Kill everyone or you're fired.".

From how in-depth the discussion has been, I expected a whole party of allies to try and talk him down or at least ask for more information, but no. The very first thing anyone says is met with hostility. Even a simple "I'm sorry, but there's nothing else we can do" would have been nice. He was even about to tell Uther something about the plague before they spotted the infected civilians, so even just one sentence of that would have gone a long way toward him not looking like a bloodthirsty douchebag. And people in this thread were acting like the lifespan of one sentence would have made or broken the entire situation. What, they can't walk and talk at the same time? Jeesh, way to exaggerate.

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## Lord Raziere

Honestly the shortness and lack of dialogue of the scene is probably what makes it so hotly debated, Taffy.

if there was more time and nuance to it, it probably wouldn't be that discussed because it'd be done well and thus questions we have would be answered more, but they weren't and the whole thing was done so short and abruptly that its kind of strange and odd in how short it really is, how much left unanswered so geeks like us who want things answered will naturally argue about it for decades to come. I'd imagine any normal player would just take the simple shortcut and go "yeah this is the scene where he falls, Anakin skywalker moment" then not think about it all that much while remaining unsurprised that he becomes the lich king, because Warcraft is very much hollywood movie morality played out in a fantasy universe.

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## Lemmy

> Arthas declares Uther a traitor because Uther explicitly and directly refuses to follow a direct order given to him. It didnt just come out of nowhere.


Yes. An order to immediately slaughter civilians without a second thought. Not even a second must be spared to even consider other possibilities. And if you refuse, you're a traitor.

Sounds like a ruthless tyrant to me...

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Yes. An order to immediately slaughter civilians without a second thought. Not even a second must be spared to even consider other possibilities. And if you refuse, you're a traitor.
> 
> Sounds like a ruthless tyrant to me...


Followed by his next big decision which was to hypocritically disobey his father's orders and burn the ships so no one could obey his father, making his decision with Uther more damning: he isn't ACTUALLY upholding the crown or its integrity of law here, he is upholding HIMSELF and what he wants to do even though he is outranked, thats definitely tyrant behavior.

----------


## Dragonus45

> Yeah but if the Paladin McGood Guy, paragon leader of the McGoodguys is the one disobeying you, that should kind of be a big freaking hint that maybe your direct order isn't the right one.


Only it kind of was the right one, and in the decades since not once has there ever been a hint that there was any other choice. Yes Paladin McGood Guy absolutely would have had a duty to make sure Arthas considered the options and that what was about to happen wasn't unnecessary or in vain and to be the conscience of the group in a terrible situation. But he also had a duty to those people who were about to be murdered by a plague and have their bodies turned into weapons against all life in the world, and if he had sucked it up and done his actual duty to everyone involved and tried to _help_ Arthas through the aftermath of a deeply unsettling and painful experience instead of callously condemning him everything could have gone differently. The man was paladining wrong.

----------


## Keltest

> Yes. An order to immediately slaughter civilians without a second thought. Not even a second must be spared to even consider other possibilities. And if you refuse, you're a traitor.
> 
> Sounds like a ruthless tyrant to me...


Which is entirely true, but rather beside the point of whether its treason.

----------


## Traab

> The issue with Arthas choosing to slaughter the city isn't that he chose to do that when there was no option... It's a combination of two factors:
> 
> - He *IMMEDIATELY* went with "slaughter's the only way!"
> - He *IMMEDIATELY* declares his friends to be traitors for daring to want to consider other possibilities for half a second.
> 
> Did Arthas ultimately choose the right course of action in this instance? Yes. But that's irrelevant... Because he'd have done the same even if there was another solution, simply because he didn't even bother to consider other possibilities for half a second, and also turned on his friends, people who loved and respected him.
> 
> At this point, Arthas may not have been completely evil, but he was already a ruthless tyrant.


Because slaughter WAS the only way
They didnt want to consider other options, they didnt HAVE any other options. They just didnt want to accept the horrible situation they were stuck in. 

They went denial mode rather than debate mode. What annoys me is, they had time in between uther riding to the rescue and them reaching stratholme for arthas and jaina to catch uther up on everything they had discovered and yet somehow the idea of saying "hey uther, here is what went down" escaped them until they reached the outskirts of the city and saw it was too late. Its disingenuous to proclaim arthas wouldnt have accepted any other options because you dont know that, and there were no other options. Just A) Kill them so they dont rise up as undead monsters, and B) Dont kill them and they rise up as undead monsters. Even now, years afterwards, nobody can think of any viable alternative solution. Thats in world and out here as theory crafters.

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## Delicious Taffy

I'm less concerned with "Was there really a viable solution" than I am with this Arthas fella's attitude problem. We can argue day and night about how viable any other options might have hypothetically been regarding the zomboids, but it's his abysmal social skills that really cause the problem. He basically has a hissy because someone is shocked by his extremist 'tude.

----------


## Lemmy

> Which is entirely true, but rather beside the point of whether its treason.


Depends on what you call treason... If a ruler tells their soldiers to slaughter the citizens, the one committing treason is the ruler, not the soldiers who refuse to obey.




> Because slaughter WAS the only way
> They didnt want to consider other options, they didnt HAVE any other options. They just didnt want to accept the horrible situation they were stuck in. 
> 
> They went denial mode rather than debate mode. What annoys me is, they had time in between uther riding to the rescue and them reaching stratholme for arthas and jaina to catch uther up on everything they had discovered and yet somehow the idea of saying "hey uther, here is what went down" escaped them until they reached the outskirts of the city and saw it was too late. Its disingenuous to proclaim arthas wouldnt have accepted any other options because you dont know that, and there were no other options. Just A) Kill them so they dont rise up as undead monsters, and B) Dont kill them and they rise up as undead monsters. Even now, years afterwards, nobody can think of any viable alternative solution. Thats in world and out here as theory crafters.


Again: The issue here isn't that he took that course of action, but that he immediately jumped to that without as much as considering any other possibility for even half a second. 

There could have been a magic wand of "cure all villages and scare away the big bad dreadlord" 10 ft away from Arthas, and he would've never even looked at it before putting the whole city to the sword... In fact he would have condemned as traitors anyone who dared to mention said wand.

Arthas wasn't being pragmatic... He was being ruthless and merciless, and just happened to decide on the right course of action in this one instance.

And as pointed out by others, Arthas himself disobeyed the King and committed actual treason shortly after. So, yeah... He was a ruthless tyrant even before finding Froustmourne.

----------


## Seppl

> There could have been a magic wand of "cure all villages and scare away the big bad dreadlord" 10 ft away from Arthas, and he would've never even looked at it before putting the whole city to the sword... In fact he would have condemned as traitors anyone who dared to mention said wand.


How is that a reasonable train of thought for Arthas? Should he delay a necessary, time-critical action in order to first search the three nearest villages for a miracle cure? What if this miracle was instead in the basement of the third house in Stratholme? No, even in the World of Warcraft things like that do not just appear in random village libraries. Maybe if Stratholme was close to some ancient, mystical place of power (Dalaran, the Sunwell, or something like that), he could have sent Jaina to check that for a miracle cure. While _also_ starting the necessary containment of the plague because the most probable result would still be that such a cure does not exist. In fact, the most reasonable place to expect a miracle cure would be in the hands of Mal-Ganis.

----------


## Traab

> Depends on what you call treason... If a ruler tells their soldiers to slaughter the citizens, the one committing treason is the ruler, not the soldiers who refuse to obey.
> 
> 
> Again: The issue here isn't that he took that course of action, but that he immediately jumped to that without as much as considering any other possibility for even half a second. 
> 
> There could have been a magic wand of "cure all villages and scare away the big bad dreadlord" 10 ft away from Arthas, and he would've never even looked at it before putting the whole city to the sword... In fact he would have condemned as traitors anyone who dared to mention said wand.
> 
> Arthas wasn't being pragmatic... He was being ruthless and merciless, and just happened to decide on the right course of action in this one instance.
> 
> And as pointed out by others, Arthas himself disobeyed the King and committed actual treason shortly after. So, yeah... He was a ruthless tyrant even before finding Froustmourne.


Nobody else had any other option to offer, all they had was "Oh no, you cant kill the infected city before they turn into zombies!" He had a highly skilled and educated archmage and the leader of a holy order of paladins with decades of experience with the light under his belt and neither of them could say, "Wait, we can try this instead" He didnt refuse or ignore any solutions. Nobody had any for him and your argument is "maybe a random miracle would have happened and a naaru ends up living in the hut by the gate that was willing to fix it all if someone just asked." He didnt "just happen" to pick the right option, he knew what was going on, and knew there was only one way to fix it with the tools and time available, and nobody else could think of anything else as a better option. And again, they didnt have TIME to consider options and debate and make plans. He saw how fast the villagers turned in hearthglen, and he knew that if his people were nearly over run by hamlets being turned into undead, an entire city would obliterate them.

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## Keltest

> I'm less concerned with "Was there really a viable solution" than I am with this Arthas fella's attitude problem. We can argue day and night about how viable any other options might have hypothetically been regarding the zomboids, but it's his abysmal social skills that really cause the problem. He basically has a hissy because someone is shocked by his extremist 'tude.


Its not "bad social skills" to react negatively to people basically refusing to engage an impending enemy army. He isnt playing diplomat here, he's acting in a military context as a military commander whose officers are basically insubordinate.

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## theNater

> Its not "bad social skills" to react negatively to people basically refusing to engage an impending enemy army.


The people of Stratholme are friendly civilians forced into military production against their will, not enemy soldiers.  I find it interesting that you feel a need to misrepresent Arthas' plan in order to defend it.

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## Keltest

> The people of Stratholme are friendly civilians forced into military production against their will, not enemy soldiers.  I find it interesting that you feel a need to misrepresent Arthas' plan in order to defend it.


They ARE enemy soldiers, or will be very shortly. That is, in fact, the entire nature of the conflict.

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## Lord Raziere

> The people of Stratholme are friendly civilians forced into military production against their will, not enemy soldiers.  I find it interesting that you feel a need to misrepresent Arthas' plan in order to defend it.


Indeed, even if a cure can't be done at that point, the fact that he made that decision without some measure of regret or sadness that he couldn't find a better solution within so little time kind of says it all. and the fact that Stratholme pretty much ends up an undead ruin in WoW makes what he did pointless anyways, its only "right" in the sense that the Scourge probably had to produce more corpses to retake the city and thus give them a casualty loss from a military perspective and didn't technically save the rest of the kingdoms.

But lets see, what other options he could've done? What decisions could he have made other than killing them all?
-he could've waited and said "okay Uther lets wait then, see them turn into undead before our eyes I'll be here to say I told you so" now would this be the best decision either? no. Stratholme would be under Scourge control and they had to probably fight a huge battle but with coordinated undead anyways, but Uther and Jaina would believe him
-he could've ordered a quarantine upon the city, blocking anyone from getting in or out, convince Uther that it'd be reasonable to keep the city contained if he is right, and if he is wrong, wouldn't quarantine be a good measure during a plague anyways?

-another option, though unlikely is that he take Medivh's advice and takes his people to Kalimdor to fight the Burning Legion. at first this looks crazy but this ends up being a good decision, perhaps even the right one because this evacs humans away from the Scourge, denying them humans to fuel the Scourge's army and probably getting more forces to fight the Legion in Kalimdor since the prince probably has more charisma and persuasive power than just Jaina in Lordaeron. in this alternate timeline Arthas is a hero who helps fighting the Burning Legion, which causes a few cascade effects: the Lich King doesn't have any candidate for his throne which means Kil'jaeden's plan to get rid of the Lich King for being a failure will probably work. if the Lich King dies, that of course makes the Scourge pretty much defunct, meanwhile if Arthas was vital for the scourge to be properly controlled in the eastern kingdoms, that means Quel'thalas might never fall, Sylvanas never becomes undead, the blood elves never become a thing, Kel'thuzad never gets rezzed, which means the WoW northrend expansion never happens, Bolvar never becomes the lich king, and whether the Horde gets any presence in the Eastern Kingdoms at all would be doubtful. 
though it is possible that Illidan, being the morally defunct individual that he is could be corrupted into being the new Lich King instead, he has demonstrated a lot of corruptibility in the past and might see the Scourge as a weapon to use against the Burning Legion, though I don't know how that would shake out.

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## Delicious Taffy

> Its not "bad social skills" to react negatively to people basically refusing to engage an impending enemy army.


I didn't say it was. My point was that, based solely on the single clip I've seen of the event, he didn't even bother with a simple "I know it sounds harsh, but they're gonna turn and that's all we can do about it." Sure, they're pressed for time, yadda yadda, not debating that part. But he sure had time to lord his royalty over the other guy and formally strip him of his rank, huh? That 60 seconds could have been spent preparing his people for an objectively crappy sole option, I don't care what alternative actions they did or didn't have. 

I don't have the personal emotional stake in this circular argument that others seem to, but come on. Biting the head off the first person to say "Wait, what?" because you can't be arsed to explain for literally one sentence, that's terrible social skills. He sucks at it.

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## Keltest

> I didn't say it was. My point was that, based solely on the single clip I've seen of the event, he didn't even bother with a simple "I know it sounds harsh, but they're gonna turn and that's all we can do about it." Sure, they're pressed for time, yadda yadda, not debating that part. But he sure had time to lord his royalty over the other guy and formally strip him of his rank, huh? That 60 seconds could have been spent preparing his people for an objectively crappy sole option, I don't care what alternative actions they did or didn't have. 
> 
> I don't have the personal emotional stake in this circular argument that others seem to, but come on. Biting the head off the first person to say "Wait, what?" because you can't be arsed to explain for literally one sentence, that's terrible social skills. He sucks at it.


Whats left to explain? The plague turns them into zombies. The entire city is infected. The situation is incredibly simple and straightforward.

----------


## Lemmy

> How is that a reasonable train of thought for Arthas? Should he delay a necessary, time-critical action in order to first search the three nearest villages for a miracle cure? What if this miracle was instead in the basement of the third house in Stratholme? No, even in the World of Warcraft things like that do not just appear in random village libraries. Maybe if Stratholme was close to some ancient, mystical place of power (Dalaran, the Sunwell, or something like that), he could have sent Jaina to check that for a miracle cure. While _also_ starting the necessary containment of the plague because the most probable result would still be that such a cure does not exist. In fact, the most reasonable place to expect a miracle cure would be in the hands of Mal-Ganis.


The point is that he didn't even consider anything else other than "slaughter the city" and probably wouldn't have done it even if there was an alternative. He also immediately labeled his friends as "traitors" for not instantly agreeing to kill thousands of civilians without even a millisecond of hesitation.

His ruthlessness, hypocrisy and disregard for other people's well-being is only further confirmed soon after, even before he even touches Frostmourne.

----------


## Lemmy

It's also worth noting that Arthas has no way of knowing for certain that absolutely 100% of the population is both infected and incapable of resisting the plague. In fact, statistically speaking, that's very unlikely to be the case. Chances are, he killed at least one person who didn't need to die.

And he could have, you know... Understood why his friends didn't immediately agree to kill civilians without even discussing the situation first.

If someone says "everyone is infected, let's kill them all", the right thing to do is indeed question that claim. Immediately accepting it as true and agreeing with the proposed course of action is either very naive or very evil... Possibly both.

----------


## Talakeal

Keep in mind that by that point Arthas hasnt slept in at-least two days and has seen numerous things during that time that would have left most people traumatized for life. It is not surprising he is lacking patience and tact.

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## theNater

> They ARE enemy soldiers...


You know this is wrong, as evidenced by the rest of the sentence.  Why include it?




> Keep in mind that by that point Arthas hasnt slept in at-least two days and has seen numerous things during that time that would have left most people traumatized for life. It is not surprising he is lacking patience and tact.


Do you think that maybe two days of sleep deprivation is also affecting his judgement?  He's our only source for claims that the infected people of Stratholme will form an unstoppable army; how sure are we that a quarantine around the city couldn't hold?

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## Traab

> You know this is wrong, as evidenced by the rest of the sentence.  Why include it?
> 
> 
> Do you think that maybe two days of sleep deprivation is also affecting his judgement?  He's our only source for claims that the infected people of Stratholme will form an unstoppable army; how sure are we that a quarantine around the city couldn't hold?


Because his forces are going to be outnumbered 100-1 by undead hordes that feel no pain or fear within the next 12 hours tops? Because his forces were nearly over run by undead from MUCH smaller areas being turned and sent to attack him while he was holding a defensive location? There is literally zero doubt that if allowed to turn, stratholme would have turned into a pretty much unstoppable force. And for an earlier comment about "but maybe there were some innocents that DIDNT eat the grain!" Yeah, you know what? Probably. You remember what happens to the innocents in a zombie movie? They get eaten and turned anyways. Everyone in stratholme was already dead. All that mattered was how they would die. A quick merciful end from their prince, or being torn apart by a ravening horde, or being raised as an undead abomination to help murder the world of the living.

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## Seppl

> The point is that he didn't even consider anything else other than "slaughter the city" and probably wouldn't have done it even if there was an alternative. He also immediately labeled his friends as "traitors" for not instantly agreeing to kill thousands of civilians without even a millisecond of hesitation.


That is just not realistic, nor should we expect or praise a military commander for being hesitant. The whole kingdom is on the line with his decisions here, he just cannot take a gamble that big only to save one city.

Consider a military surgeon who has to amputate a leg: Would you consider them a better doctor for delaying the life-saving but messy operation, so that they can first try if a tea brewed from random plants around the camp is the miracle cure for a severed artery? Would you side with a nurse who walked out on the doctor because they did not want to take part in the amputation?

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## Aragehaor

> Do you think that maybe two days of sleep deprivation is also affecting his judgement?  He's our only source for claims that the infected people of Stratholme will form an unstoppable army; how sure are we that a quarantine around the city couldn't hold?


Quite certainly, and while it is accurate to say that he is our only source of direct information, we dont actually need to rely on Arthas to make a judgment in this matter. Stratholme is a city of anywhere from 15,000-25,000 people at the time of the Culling. If we we're to go purely by the army Arthas is shown to possess on screen the question of 'is a quarantine feasible' is entirely meaningless, so instead we'll try to reason this out with what scant information blizzard gives us on Lordaeron's actual population and capabilities

Stratholme as listed above is described as the 'second most populous city in Lordaeron', Presumably leaving Lordaeron City at the most populous, unfortunately with the limited* amount of numbers we can only guess at that population, but for the sake of this thought experiment we'll assume high end numbers.

Stratholme at 25,000

Lordaeron City at 70,000


https://i.redd.it/eqk6rykwtsc31.jpg This is a mostly complete reference map for Lordaeron's kingdom - it is not completely accurate, Dalaran, for instance, was not a part of Lordaeron proper, but it works well enough for our immediate purposes. Scanning through it, there are at least 11(possibly 12) villages and no true additional cities. 

For the villages, we'll be extremely generous and say each has straight forward population of 8,000. Additionally, we'll say that there are 18 such villages in total (to account for possible map inaccuracies and to give lordaeron a higher population) We'll also go ahead and give Lordaeron an additional 50,000 population for their miscellaneous keeps, abbeys, farms, and other such locations.

Altogether, these rough calculations leave Lordaeron with a rough population of 289k, which we'll round up to 300,000. 

With that 300,000 we will apply a _very_ generous recruitment/conscription of 15%, giving Lordaeron a standing army of 45,000 men across all their various territories and forticiations.

With these numbers, we can confidently state that, on their own, 25,000 undead will _not_ be capable of destroying all of Lordaeron (assuming that the Cult of the Damnned is, indeed, fully demolished and the undead are unable to multiply without the infected grain, again, the most generous interpretation.)

Is a Quarantine possible, however? most probably not, the most we can justify Arthas having at hand due to the background of this is 5,000 men,(Which is... insufficient, it would be a different matter if Arthas and his forces were under attack in heavy fortifications.) It is unlikely Arthas will be able to call a majority of Lordaeron's armed forces to him in sufficient time to feasibly contain 25,000 undead, meaning the undead *will* spill out and overwhelm whatever forces Arthas keeps with him, and then probably would be able to ravage the land all the way until Andorhal, where Lordaeron and the its allies forces would finally be able to reach the undead swarm in force. 

There are other factors that may enable a quarantine - the Light is proven to be a very efficient weapon and defense against the undead later on in Warcraft Lore (Hallowed Ground even being strong enough to force the Lich King into retreating from Lights hope in world of warcraft) but the players at hand are seemingly ignorant of them, and the actual capability of their use in establishing a quarantine is unknown.

There are also other factors that may enable Lordaeron and its allies to destroy the undead before they ravage a great deal of their countryside. Large scale teleportation, primarily - however, the only time this possibility is used at all is during Kael'thas's escape from Dalaran, so the logistics and feasibility of such an effort is unknown.


In closing, Quarantine is, - barring information i am as of yet unaware of - more or less impossible for Arthas to enact successfully, even if the population took two entire days to turn. and in the most optimistic outlooks the situation when the undead break out is merely grim, rather then 'the end of all things' (excluding the high elves, who remain safe if _only_ mindless undead attempt to ravage them)


Is it _truly_ impossible? Probably not, theres certainly enough examples of random nonsense working out later on in World of Warcraft's lore - but neither Uther nor Jaina attempt** to suggest an alternative, nor does Jaina ever imply later on in the lore that she has since then thought of an idea that would of worked and saved Stratholme. 



Information gathered from Wowpedia + memory, so feel free to correct anything if its wrong.

*In point of order, Stratholme is the only reliable piece of information i can find on the population of _any_ of lordaeron's villages or cities, so the rest of our numbers will be estimated based on it.

**I am aware that Arthas is not in a very listening mood, but the absence of even an aborted attempt to suggest an alternative implies that they do not have one at present.

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## Seppl

What would even be the point of waiting for a quarantine? Arthas has the choice between facing an army of proportional strength to the whole combined army of Lordaeron, or of attacking before that army becomes a problem. If he attacks now, Lordaeron loses one city and the innocence of its prince. If he waits, Lordaeron loses one city and thousands or even tens of thousands of soldiers, even if the kingdom somehow survives. All while there is evidence that the kingdom is under threat from a yet unknown strong foe, and while the Orcs in the south are in active rebellion.

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## theNater

> That is just not realistic, nor should we expect or praise a military commander for being hesitant.


We absolutely should expect a military commander to be hesitant to attack civilians, especially his own nation's




> ...it would be a different matter if Arthas and his forces were under attack in heavy fortifications.)


You'll notice that on your map, Stratholme is inside a natural valley.  The valley entrance is blocked by a wall with a single set of gates, which Arthas has full access to, on both sides.  Would that count as heavy fortifications?

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## Lord Raziere

Okay, but how is attacking a bunch of undead any more threatening to 5000 soldiers than killing the same amount of people but able to think for themselves, and if he was wrong he'd be ticking off an entire city presumably under his rule who could organize a resistance against him? like, there is nothing a bunch of hungry undead can do that a bunch of angry people can't. if he was wrong, he'd be adding Stratholme deciding to rebel against him on top of the problems he already has. like does he expect the actual living people to let themselves be mowed down like grass just because they're "innocent"? if his force was really that meager compared to the people he was killing, how did he expect to go on the offensive in this Culling in the first place? he won stratholme, so why wouldn't he have won undead stratholme?

and what if that one person he saw be sick was the only one infected? he was making assumptions of an entire city based on one person and was being manipulated by demon forces to do it, why would they actually go to the trouble of infecting the entire city, when they could infect a few people, arrange for Arthas to see them and assume its too late for everyone else?

like if quarantine wouldn't have worked because of those reasons, how did he accomplish the Culling of Stratholme in canon? you can't assume that he has a different amount of forces for the canon scenario and the alternate scenario, either your claiming he somehow slaughter all of Stratholme with 5000 men when he can't face an undead Stratholme with 5000 men, or he has more forces than you assume and thus more men to block off chokepoints for the quarantine, as well as destroy the boats stratholme has.

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## Seppl

So, he should have said something like this? "Soldiers! The enemy is gathering an army right over there. For now, they are helpless and unorganized. But we will wait here until they are fully mobilized and attack us. A lot of you will die, but that is a price I am willing to pay! Meanwhile, I will be in my tent to contemplate the cruelty of the world, in order to show my girlfriend how much I care."  

You all realize that Zapp Brennigan and Lord Farquaad are parodies, not role models?

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## Lord Raziere

> So, he should have said something like this? "Soldiers! The enemy is gathering an army right over there. For now, they are helpless and unorganized. But we will wait here until they are fully mobilized and attack us. A lot of you will die, but that is a price I am willing to pay! Meanwhile, I will be in my tent to contemplate the cruelty of the world, in order to show my girlfriend how much I care."  
> 
> You all realize that Zapp Brennigan and Lord Farquaad are parodies, not role models?


you do realize that neither is Wh40k Imperium of Mankind a role model, which would approve of Arthas's culling with thunderous applause?

----------


## Keltest

> you do realize that neither is Wh40k Imperium of Mankind a role model, which would approve of Arthas's culling with thunderous applause?


Its not like Arthas _wanted_ to be doing it either. It was the least bad option available to him.

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## theNater

> like, there is nothing a bunch of hungry undead can do that a bunch of angry people can't.


Your default Warcraft undead has some traits that make them more dangerous than a default human:

1)Being controlled by a necromancer means they are less responsive to pain.
2)Being animated by magic means blood loss and muscle injury don't slow them down the same way.
3)The animation process reshapes their body a little bit, most notably growing knife-sized claws on their fingers.

The end result of this is that your basic ghoul/zombie is about as dangerous as a medium-armored swordsman, decidedly more dangerous than an unarmed or pitchfork-wielding peasant.

It's certainly possible for a situation to exist where a batch of undead is a threat to a group but an equally-sized batch of angry people wouldn't be.  Arthas tells us that's the case here, and if you can't trust the rantings of a sleep-deprived traumatized desperate princeling with delusions of grandeur, what can you trust?

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## Seppl

> Your default Warcraft undead has some traits that make them more dangerous than a default human:
> 
> 1)Being controlled by a necromancer means they are less responsive to pain.
> 2)Being animated by magic means blood loss and muscle injury don't slow them down the same way.
> 3)The animation process reshapes their body a little bit, most notably growing knife-sized claws on their fingers.
> 
> The end result of this is that your basic ghoul/zombie is about as dangerous as a medium-armored swordsman, decidedly more dangerous than an unarmed or pitchfork-wielding peasant.


You forgot the most important difference: As undead they fall under the greater will of Mal-Ganis/the Lich King. These are not mindless zombies that will run amok after they turn. They become a perfectly obedient army that will employ coordinated tactics in pursuit of a greater strategic purpose. If Arthas sets up a quarantine siege, perfectly employing terrain, gathering reinforcements, instructing his priests in anti-undead tactics, then Mal-Ganis can just chose to not attack if he thinks he will lose. He might chose to wait out the siege (the undead do not need food, the besieger do), he might start building ships from the houses to break the blockade, he can start doing whatever he deems best using his 25000 ghouls.

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## Aragehaor

> You'll notice that on your map, Stratholme is inside a natural valley.  The valley entrance is blocked by a wall with a single set of gates, which Arthas has full access to, on both sides.  Would that count as heavy fortifications?


Possibly? although if you are referring to _Northpass Tower_ it is bypassable through the forest - though whether or not the 25,000 undead _would_ choose to bypass is beyond my ability to know, However, even with relatively heavy fortifications the undead pose a few problems.* Still, if Arthas withdrew, and abandoned the people of the valley, he could likely safely make it there and entrench himself and his men. Alternatively he could split off some of his men to try and evacuate as many as his could, but that would put his troops at risk of being lost and weakening his attempt at containment. 

He could also try to evacuate with some of stratholmes citizens, but that'd simply reset the situation to normal as Mal'Ganis would appear, taunt arthas, and Arthas would revert to culling the city to stop him.

*Ghouls, the least of the undead that Arthas _should_ be expecting the face after Hearthglen, are able to kill soldiers in full plate with at 1-1 or 1-2 odds, can _heal themselves off of nearby corpses, friend OR foe_, and are faster on average then his own heavily armored forces. Fortifications didnt save Arthas in Hearthglen, so whether they would succeed here would be difficult to be certain of.




> Okay, but how is attacking a bunch of undead any more threatening to 5000 soldiers than killing the same amount of people but able to think for themselves, and if he was wrong he'd be ticking off an entire city presumably under his rule who could organize a resistance against him? like, there is nothing a bunch of hungry undead can do that a bunch of angry people can't. if he was wrong, he'd be adding Stratholme deciding to rebel against him on top of the problems he already has. like does he expect the actual living people to let themselves be mowed down like grass just because they're "innocent"? if his force was really that meager compared to the people he was killing, how did he expect to go on the offensive in this Culling in the first place? he won stratholme, so why wouldn't he have won undead stratholme?


 Undead in the warcraft universe are on average stronger, faster, and able to survive far more deadly wounds then a normal human (They can also regenerate through some means, see: Ghouls), Additionally, i cant think of _any_ examples of the population of stratholme resisting either Arthas or Mal'Ganis at all - while i find it strange that the second most populated city in the kingdom apparently had literially _no_ combatants at all, that is what we are presented.

Additionally, the above mentioned Ghouls are probably the *least* of the forces Arthas is expecting to face, i wouldnt be surprised if he was expecting virtually every type of undead to emerge from the city, including Abominations.



> and what if that one person he saw be sick was the only one infected? he was making assumptions of an entire city based on one person and was being manipulated by demon forces to do it, why would they actually go to the trouble of infecting the entire city, when they could infect a few people, arrange for Arthas to see them and assume its too late for everyone else?


Because theres no downside for Mal'Ganis if Arthas lets him turn the entire city into undead, Mal'Ganis's goal is to summon forth the Burning Legion, an action which Lordaeron and Dalaran are _in the way_ of. If Arthas lets him turn the entire city into undead, then he gets a free army to direct to accomplishing this goal -which, even in the event of failure will weaken the kingdom considerably, and thus still advance his goals.

Additionally, there was little trouble, as they had already delivered the grain - Mal'Ganis didnt need to do much of anything if he didnt want to.




> like if quarantine wouldn't have worked because of those reasons, how did he accomplish the Culling of Stratholme in canon? you can't assume that he has a different amount of forces for the canon scenario and the alternate scenario, either your claiming he somehow slaughter all of Stratholme with 5000 men when he can't face an undead Stratholme with 5000 men, or he has more forces than you assume and thus more men to block off chokepoints for the quarantine, as well as destroy the boats stratholme has.


As i've said above, there isnt a single example i can think of in which the citizens of Stratholme even try to resist - but assuming they were to? Arthas army is heavily armored and armed, whereas the population of Stratholme is apparently _entirely_ unarmed and unarmored, an organized effort by the citizens may stand a small chance - but by the time that could logically attempt to form Mal'Ganis will be attacking the people from the rear in his 'race' with Arthas. 

It may also of been night time when Arthas attacked stratholme, but i dont remember that for sure.

----------


## Lurkmoar

Warcraft 3, published 2002.

Moral dilemmas sure have staying power.

What's up next for Death Battle?

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## Rater202

So I don't have a dog in this fight, but like... Do the people who condemn Arthas for wanting to put the city to the sword before they turn think that the Government shouldn't have nuked Raccoon City in the Resident Evil series?

Because that seems to be the appropriate comparison.

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## Dragonus45

> You know this is wrong, as evidenced by the rest of the sentence.  Why include it?


Only it isn't.



> Do you think that maybe two days of sleep deprivation is also affecting his judgement?  He's our only source for claims that the infected people of Stratholme will form an unstoppable army; how sure are we that a quarantine around the city couldn't hold?


It probably was effecting a lot of things, but in decades of WoW not having it's **** together enough to tell a cohesive story without a dozen retcons a patch they never once have retconned the situation to say Arthas actually had other options. 




> Warcraft 3, published 2002.
> Moral dilemmas sure have staying power.


It's kind of sad to realize there isn't a single moment in all of WOW that manages to generate conversation the way that the plot of Warcraft 3 and it's expansions do.

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## Delicious Taffy

> What's up next for Death Battle?


Some anime guy versus some other anime guy.

Guy 1 can smash stuff real good, Guy 2 has magic powers. Both are apparently buff as hell and have some tricky moves they can pull off in a pinch. I'm betting on Guy 2, mostly because I've seen a few episodes of Guy 1's anime and haven't even heard of Guy 2 before, which usually means a stomp for that character.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> It's kind of sad to realize there isn't a single moment in all of WOW that manages to generate conversation the way that the plot of Warcraft 3 and it's expansions do.


It's hard to say exactly when Blizzard started sucking at stories. It was probably about the time they stopped letting playable characters be awful people who revelled in their own awfulness (see: character assassination of Kerrigan between Brood War and Starcraft 2).

----------


## Seppl

> It's hard to say exactly when Blizzard started sucking at stories. It was probably about the time they stopped letting playable characters be awful people who revelled in their own awfulness (see: character assassination of Kerrigan between Brood War and Starcraft 2).


There's literal decades between SC1 and SC2, though. SC2 is already deep in bad story territory. From the conversation here we can deduce that WC3 still had a good story. The first time I noticed Blizzard pumping out one bad story after another was with World of Warcraft. So many instances of "Remember this character from the previous games? _Somehow_ they are _evil_ now!".

----------


## Rynjin

> So I don't have a dog in this fight, but like... Do the people who condemn Arthas for wanting to put the city to the sword before they turn think that the Government shouldn't have nuked Raccoon City in the Resident Evil series?
> 
> Because that seems to be the appropriate comparison.


The big difference between the two scenarios IMO is that the Raccoon City outbreak was visibly and determinably widespread, and based on what we see in RE 2, 3, and a bunch of other games set in the same time period had reached nearly 100% infection rate among those left in the city.

And, oh yeah, "those left in the city" is a very important qualifier, because several attempts of varying success were made to _evacuate the uninfected_ before the nuke dropped.

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## theNater

> Possibly? although if you are referring to _Northpass Tower_...


Nah, I'm referring to the city wall of Stratholme.  Where the word Stratholme is on your map?  That's a wall, connecting the mountains on either side.




> *Ghouls, the least of the undead that Arthas _should_ be expecting the face after Hearthglen


Ghouls are what the plague turns people into.  Any other units would require destroying multiple ghouls for parts, reducing the total number of the undead forces.




> So I don't have a dog in this fight, but like... Do the people who condemn Arthas for wanting to put the city to the sword before they turn think that the Government shouldn't have nuked Raccoon City in the Resident Evil series?


A reminder, all I'm asking is that Arthas spend literally any time at all looking for other options.  I don't know Resident Evil, but from Rynjin's comment it sounds like they not only looked for but actively tried other things first.




> It's hard to say exactly when Blizzard started sucking at stories.


Blizzard's stories were always bad never good.  The early ones were just so minimal it was easy to imagine a better story on top of it.  Much of the arguing stems from different people trying to defend different imagined versions.

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## BloodSquirrel

> It's hard to say exactly when Blizzard started sucking at stories. It was probably about the time they stopped letting playable characters be awful people who revelled in their own awfulness (see: character assassination of Kerrigan between Brood War and Starcraft 2).


Was Blizzard ever actually _good_ at stories? 

Blizzard had a pretty good story for Warcraft 1/2 by the standards of what you could fit in a few pages for a video game manual, but even between Warcraft 1 and Warcraft 2 you saw a good deal of retcons. Starcraft had a decent story, but again, that was by the standards of what you could fit in a few lines of dialog between missions and the primitive in-engine story segments.

Warcraft 3 was already showing some of the problems that would come to plague Blizzard- a reliance on re-writing past story events to set up new additions to the story, a once somewhat-grounded fantasy world that was turning into a cartoon show, the beginning of the whitewashing of the orcs, etc. There was a still a lot of good in it, but it was coming right along at the time where games were just starting to become more story-focused and it didn't take much to look good by comparison to the rest of the crowd. Standards were still kind of low.

Now we're in an age where these games need a much more developed story, and the technology that exists to deliver one has raised our expectations, and Blizzard has never really shown themselves to be great storytellers under that new level of scrutiny. They were able to write stories when they could keep them simple and play off of one or two broadly compelling concepts; they've never shown that they could keep their lore straight from one game to another, or plan out and manage a long-term plotline with lots of moving parts.




> Warcraft 3, published 2002.
> 
> Moral dilemmas sure have staying power.


 Empire vs. Stormcloaks.

Even Bethesda managed to create a matter of contentious discussion in a game filled with otherwise banal and disjointed storytelling.

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## Forum Explorer

> Was Blizzard ever actually _good_ at stories? 
> 
> Blizzard had a pretty good story for Warcraft 1/2 by the standards of what you could fit in a few pages for a video game manual, but even between Warcraft 1 and Warcraft 2 you saw a good deal of retcons. Starcraft had a decent story, but again, that was by the standards of what you could fit in a few lines of dialog between missions and the primitive in-engine story segments.
> 
> Warcraft 3 was already showing some of the problems that would come to plague Blizzard- a reliance on re-writing past story events to set up new additions to the story, a once somewhat-grounded fantasy world that was turning into a cartoon show, the beginning of the whitewashing of the orcs, etc. There was a still a lot of good in it, but it was coming right along at the time where games were just starting to become more story-focused and it didn't take much to look good by comparison to the rest of the crowd. Standards were still kind of low.
> 
> Now we're in an age where these games need a much more developed story, and the technology that exists to deliver one has raised our expectations, and Blizzard has never really shown themselves to be great storytellers under that new level of scrutiny. They were able to write stories when they could keep them simple and play off of one or two broadly compelling concepts; they've never shown that they could keep their lore straight from one game to another, or plan out and manage a long-term plotline with lots of moving parts.


Honestly, I feel like Blizzard's story quality has pretty much stayed the same. It's our standards that have risen, because I don't feel like Starcraft 2's story is any worse than Warcraft 3's.

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## theNater

> Warcraft 3 was already showing some of the problems that would come to plague Blizzard- a reliance on re-writing past story events to set up new additions to the story, a once somewhat-grounded fantasy world that was turning into a cartoon show, the beginning of the whitewashing of the orcs, etc. There was a still a lot of good in it, but it was coming right along at the time where games were just starting to become more story-focused and it didn't take much to look good by comparison to the rest of the crowd. Standards were still kind of low.


Yeah, Blizzard's writing tends towards "serviceable", which put it head and shoulders above the competition back in the day.  It doesn't really hold up against the excellent writing you can find in some games these days.

----------


## Lurkmoar

> Empire vs. Stormcloaks.
> 
> Even Bethesda managed to create a matter of contentious discussion in a game filled with otherwise banal and disjointed storytelling.


Hey now, I'm been trying (and failing) to keep it tangentially related to Death Battle!

----------


## Aragehaor

> Nah, I'm referring to the city wall of Stratholme.  Where the word Stratholme is on your map?  That's a wall, connecting the mountains on either side.


 I _may_ simply be blind, but i dont see any indication whatsoever that Stratholme has walls directly connecting to the mountains on either side of it on the map i linked.

That said, let say that they do and consider your question, Can 5,000 men bar and defend the _exterior gates_ of Stratholme to keep 25,000 ghouls contained?

I doubt it, fortifications that were designed to keep things _out_ failed for Arthas agaisnt the undead at Hearthglen, i'm not sure he'd have any reason to assume attempting to fortify the exterior of Stratholmes fortifications is likely to succeed.

Arthas probably _isn't_ assuming the ghouls will have an intelligent commander (Mal'Ganis) so he wouldnt be expecting extreme intelligence from the ghouls - that said, Ghouls do possess an animalistic cunning, and he can expect his men to be able to stop 2 ghouls per man on a _very_ _very_ good day. As i said above, i dont personally believe fortifiying stratholmes exterior is very likely to work all that well, to the point that i would try just about any other alternative to that.



> Ghouls are what the plague turns people into.  Any other units would require destroying multiple ghouls for parts, reducing the total number of the undead forces.


 Thats marginally better for arthas, but still far too many to defeat or be certain of being able to contain, even if he _somehow_ managed to contain the ghouls, they are creatures which possess cunning, and could potentially destroy any purification force that is one day sent to try and wipe them out, City combat is difficult enough when one side isnt the entire population as undead ghouls.

...Also, Stratholme is still lost with every citizen dead, I'm not certain how 25,000 ghouls in stratholme is an _improvement_ on the situation.




> A reminder, all I'm asking is that Arthas spend literally any time at all looking for other options.  I don't know Resident Evil, but from Rynjin's comment it sounds like they not only looked for but actively tried other things first.


 Its not an unfair criticism, but at the same time there is presently no alternative that has been presented with better odds then what Arthas actually _did_, should Arthas really be judged harshly for being _correct_? 

I dont inherently disagree that it speaks poorly of Arthas that he spent very little time thinking about the issue, but given that the conclusions he came to appear to have been more or less correct i dont agree with villainizing him for _this_ choice. Its not like Arthas doesnt do _loads_ of very evil and very bad things later on to villainze him for, afterall.

 if you'd instead like to argue that he should of taken _any_ alternative, regardless of the odds of success so like as there was a mild chance, we'll have to agree to disagree. Otherwise, there isnt much more to say here, unless you care to draw up an extensive military strategy you believe would successfully contain the 25,000 ghouls with minimal risk of being overrun to discuss. (...and/or any merits of such a strategy? i'm genuinely not certain why someone would try this.)




> Blizzard's stories were always bad never good.  The early ones were just so minimal it was easy to imagine a better story on top of it.  Much of the arguing stems from different people trying to defend different imagined versions.


Partially correct, Blizzards stories were never _good_, but to call them bad is somewhat disingenuous - they are well done at what they _are_ - and that is a cohesive storyline for a series of RTS video games in the early 2000s. Its only once blizzard moved away from such constraints and matured as a company that they became able to fully express their literary talent that the quality of stories they tell can truly be considered *bad*.



Moving back to the actual topic of this thread for a moment:




> What is relevant is that Asta has ridiculous speed feats, super-fast flight, and a modicum of super strength AND durability of his own. He's not a city-destroyer like Deku (maybe, I'm a bit behind on both series) but when he uses his demon form (antimagic is sourced from a demon living in his spellbook, is the cliff notes version) he's at least a "hill buster", which is more than enough to cream poor Deku from what I know about his late-series abilities, and I genuinely think he has enough durability to tank Deku's best shot and still be in fighting shape, even if he would be grievously injured.


Its worth noting that Deku has some feats of impressive speed of his own, even if we're only using the anime/movies for reference, though my exact knowledge of the calculations involved are minimal, if anyone is interested in reading what some others think, this post appears to contain a fairly dramatic line of reasoning that i would not find out of place on DB itself.  (massive spoilers for the anime, movie, and manga are present in this post. be warned. https://www.quora.com/How-fast-is-Deku-any-time-of-OFA)

----------


## Lemmy

> So I don't have a dog in this fight, but like... Do the people who condemn Arthas for wanting to put the city to the sword before they turn think that the Government shouldn't have nuked Raccoon City in the Resident Evil series?
> 
> Because that seems to be the appropriate comparison.


Yes. I do think it's immoral to drop a nuke in your own country just to hide your involvement in the event, no matter whose life it costs (apparently due to the influence of the world's most evil corporation). That was never portrayed as a good action.

Setting up a perimeter and quarantine, giving survivors the chance to escape, but be examined before allowed to pass would've been the moral thing to do. The nuke was used as quick-and-dirty way to sweep everything under the rug before more information could come out... 

...And even that was giving the people in the city more of a chance than what Arthas did. At least they didn't immediately choose that option as soon as a the first sign of infection was seen in the city. It was hours before it happened, and as Rynjin pointed out, efforts were made to try and evacuate the city.

----------


## theNater

> I may simply be blind, but i dont see any indication whatsoever that Stratholme has walls directly connecting to the mountains on either side of it on the map i linked.


I apologize for my lack of clarity.  The wall does not appear on your map; it is present in-game.




> I dont inherently disagree that it speaks poorly of Arthas that he spent very little time thinking about the issue, but given that the conclusions he came to appear to have been more or less correct i dont agree with villainizing him for _this_ choice. Its not like Arthas doesnt do _loads_ of very evil and very bad things later on to villainze him for, afterall.


It's all part of the same whole.  That's my central point.

Arthas' unwillingness to consider the possibility that he might be wrong is arrogance.
Arthas' belief that his vengeance is more important than the well-being of his soldiers is arrogance.
Arthas takes up Frostmourne out of the arrogant assumption that doing so will allow him to single-handedly save Lordaeron.

This event-this failure to consider- is an early indication of the flaw that turns him into an all-out villain.

----------


## Aragehaor

> I apologize for my lack of clarity.  The wall does not appear on your map; it is present in-game.


 Ah, i see - forgive me as well, Its been quite some time since i've seen stratholme in-game. Still, i dont believe its beyond the might of the ghoul'd citizens of stratholme to break through, or at the very least, i dont think its reasonable for _Arthas_ to think he could hold them inside, even if he were to decide that was a better option in some manner.





> It's all part of the same whole.  That's my central point.
> 
> Arthas' unwillingness to consider the possibility that he might be wrong is arrogance.
> Arthas' belief that his vengeance is more important than the well-being of his soldiers is arrogance.
> Arthas takes up Frostmourne out of the arrogant assumption that doing so will allow him to single-handedly save Lordaeron.
> 
> This event-this failure to consider- is an early indication of the flaw that turns him into an all-out villain.


Oh, in that case we are in agreement - more or less. I hold that there are ways things could of gone where Arthas's flaws could have been tempered and his fall prevented - but denying that he has those flaws and that they play a key role in his fall from grace? certainly not!

I of course maintain my point that this decision isn't - in spite of how _horrible_ a thing it is that arthas does - the _wrong_ decision(for a ruler, at the very least) but i do agree that Arthas demeanor and words, and actions here are indeed relatively clear indicators of one of his more major flaws.





> ...And even that was giving the people in the city more of a chance than what Arthas did. At least they didn't immediately choose that option as soon as a the first sign of infection was seen in the city. It was hours before it happened, and as Rynjin pointed out, efforts were made to try and evacuate the city.


True, although a modern(ish) society has substantially better options for screening infections, gathering information about the disease, and better logistics for maintaining quarantines over a cities evacuated population then the Kingdom of Lordaeron did at the time. 

Tangentially related, had Quel'thalas proved to be a more reliable neighbor and friend then they were in actuality, the probability of a strong and prompt Quel'dorei response would have allowed the situation to be less dramatically terrible for Lordaeron, and would have made Arthas being unwilling to take a moment and _debate_ a much more unreasonable stance.

----------


## theNater

> Ah, i see - forgive me as well, Its been quite some time since i've seen stratholme in-game. Still, i dont believe its beyond the might of the ghoul'd citizens of stratholme to break through, or at the very least, i dont think its reasonable for _Arthas_ to think he could hold them inside, even if he were to decide that was a better option in some manner.


A lot would depend on what sorts of units Arthas had available, which I don't recall.  It's a tight enough bottleneck that a sufficiency of mages blanketing the area with blizzards could hold it indefinitely, but I don't know if mages were even available on that stage, much less a sufficiency of them.




> Oh, in that case we are in agreement - more or less. I hold that there are ways things could of gone where Arthas's flaws could have been tempered and his fall prevented - but denying that he has those flaws and that they play a key role in his fall from grace? certainly not!


Yeah, I think you and I are on the same page, at least.  There are some posters in this thread arguing that Arthas shows no flaws before arriving in Northrend, and treat his readiness to slaughter civilians as virtuous decisiveness.




> I of course maintain my point that this decision isn't - in spite of how _horrible_ a thing it is that arthas does - the _wrong_ decision(for a ruler, at the very least) but i do agree that Arthas demeanor and words, and actions here are indeed relatively clear indicators of one of his more major flaws.


The moral question is, of course, out of bounds for this forum.  As for the strategic and tactical considerations, Warcraft 3 itself gives us no information except Arthas' claims.  As an audience member, I'm generally willing to take his statements as the author's way of informing us of the stakes.*  I've been engaging with you on tactical issues because you've provided information that can make those analyses an interesting thought experiment, if nothing else.

*An exception occurs when someone tries to claim his behavior towards Uther isn't his fault because of a heightened emotional state, as such emotional states generally also impair judgement.

----------


## Aragehaor

> A lot would depend on what sorts of units Arthas had available, which I don't recall.  It's a tight enough bottleneck that a sufficiency of mages blanketing the area with blizzards could hold it indefinitely, but I don't know if mages were even available on that stage, much less a sufficiency of them.


Certainly so, Arthas in the campaign at this point had access to _mostly_ Footmen and knights, i _believe_ he had some dwarven riflemen auxiliaries as well, but after taking a look at the wc3 cutscene there arent any dwarves at all. If Arthas had access to a medium to large amount of magic casters i would agree that containing them is very possible and quite probably relatively easy (at least enough so that he wouldnt be overtly risking his forces destruction by making the attempt) 

I still dont know what benefit there is strategically or tactically to doing this - but i'd imagine with a good number of mages even Lordaeron could give limited evacuation and disease screening a shot without overwhelming risk. 

I dont actually remember why exactly Jaina is effectively the sole repersentive of Dalaran with Arthas and Uther, actually - i'm pretty sure the Quel'dorei had at least a few elves helping Arthas earlier in the campaign, no idea why Dalaran doesn't. 



> Yeah, I think you and I are on the same page, at least.  There are some posters in this thread arguing that Arthas shows no flaws before arriving in Northrend, and treat his readiness to slaughter civilians as virtuous decisiveness.


 It does appear that we are, i certainly dont view it as that afterall, it was probably _correct_ - but it certainly wasn't virtuous, the slaughter of civilians can never be.

----------


## theNater

> I still dont know what benefit there is strategically or tactically to doing this - but i'd imagine with a good number of mages even Lordaeron could give limited evacuation and disease screening a shot without overwhelming risk.


The most obvious tactical benefit is that Uther and Jaina would participate in this plan; that's a significant power boost right there.

Strategically, we're mostly looking at intangibles.  The morale boost soldiers get from knowing they did all they could isn't much, but it's a darn sight better than the morale hit from killing civilians.  It also shows them that, should they or their families be in trouble, their leadership will work to save them rather than giving them up as a lost cause right away, which is good for loyalty.  But there is one possible material gain: survivors.  Anybody who happens to dodge the plague is another living Lordaeronian citizen.




> I dont actually remember why exactly Jaina is effectively the sole repersentive of Dalaran with Arthas and Uther, actually - i'm pretty sure the Quel'dorei had at least a few elves helping Arthas earlier in the campaign, no idea why Dalaran doesn't.


My understanding is that this is still an investigative mission; Lordaeron's king isn't ready for Dalaran to send armies into his kingdom without knowing what the deal is.

----------


## Traab

> The most obvious tactical benefit is that Uther and Jaina would participate in this plan; that's a significant power boost right there.
> 
> Strategically, we're mostly looking at intangibles.  The morale boost soldiers get from knowing they did all they could isn't much, but it's a darn sight better than the morale hit from killing civilians.  It also shows them that, should they or their families be in trouble, their leadership will work to save them rather than giving them up as a lost cause right away, which is good for loyalty.  But there is one possible material gain: survivors.  Anybody who happens to dodge the plague is another living Lordaeronian citizen.
> 
> 
> My understanding is that this is still an investigative mission; Lordaeron's king isn't ready for Dalaran to send armies into his kingdom without knowing what the deal is.


Yeah iirc arthas is out on an orc killing mission because apparently some bands of them are trying to open demon portals, then they basically stumble across jaina and the cult of the damned, learn about the plagued grain, get stuck at hearthglen where they see the horror of what the undead swarms can do. Make a desperate sprint to stratholme as its the next location for a major shipment thats already been sent out, then when they get there, they see the grain has already been distributed and its too late. I think the biggest issue is time compression here. We dont get to see arthas filling in uther, we dont get to see them discussing options on how to handle things on the way, etc. Its just, fade to black at hearthglen after uther rides to the rescue, then "Oh no, we are too late" at the front door of strath. So the decision to cull seems even more rushed than it is. 

While im sure their GOAL was to get there in time to stop the grain, arthas at least was likely thinking about what to do if the plan failed. And honestly, I think uther was an idiot, possibly swayed by how easily his cavalry wiped out the undead threat, so he didnt take it as seriously as arthas did. Jaina I can forgive because she wasnt a military minded person, and her character has been pretty strongly "cant we all just get along" up till theramore got nuked. So her being a bleeding heart is understandable. But Uther? This guy isnt just a paladin, the dude is basically a general. He should have been better aware of the reality of the situation and just what horrible options they had.  But maybe wiping out the undead earlier made him treat it as more of a horrible mess than a genuine threat. Like, the terrible thing is the loss of lives of the citizens, the undead themselves arent that powerful in his mind so he wasnt as worried about facing a city of them as arthas was so he was more willing to delay and hope to think of a better option, even if it lead to wiping out a city of ghouls rather than a city of civilians. 

As an aside of what I mean about uther underestimating them, remember that in hearthglen, arthas was only barely getting overwhelmed, it was basically slightly tilted against him, he would have lost but it was close, so throwing in a small army of paladins at a full charge instantly swung the balance the other way entirely, making it seem like they werent that dangerous because duh, outnumbered 20-1 with a surprise attack makes them a lot less difficult to beat. Arthas on the other hand got to experience what it was like dealing with a true horde of undead grinding away at your defenses, wearing down your troops, until eventually your forces collapse.

----------


## Keltest

> Yeah iirc arthas is out on an orc killing mission because apparently some bands of them are trying to open demon portals, then they basically stumble across jaina and the cult of the damned, learn about the plagued grain, get stuck at hearthglen where they see the horror of what the undead swarms can do.


Close. Arthas was deliberately sent by the king to investigate the plague with Jaina. He wasnt just chasing it out of agreeableness towards his old flame, he was actively sent to contain it.

----------


## Traab

> Close. Arthas was deliberately sent by the king to investigate the plague with Jaina. He wasnt just chasing it out of agreeableness towards his old flame, he was actively sent to contain it.


Ah ok, i figured it was more, "Wait, jaina, you are searching out what? Yeah, that sounds important, I will help." I mean, its a necromancy cult in his fathers kingdom, its not the sort of thing you go, "Huh, sounds bad, well, good luck, im off to go do something else!" As both a prince and a paladin, a necromancer cult would be instantly a big deal for him. But its been so many years since I last played.

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## Lemmy

> True, although a modern(ish) society has substantially better options for screening infections, gathering information about the disease, and better logistics for maintaining quarantines over a cities evacuated population then the Kingdom of Lordaeron did at the time.


Yeah, but it doesn't have magic... Especially not magic-that-is-literally-powered-by-righteousness, you know... The kind the Arthas and Uther use.

But again, the issue isn't that Arthas decided to go with the bloodiest course of action... But how he immediately jumps to it without spending a single second to ponder about any other possibilities, and then just as quickly labels a traitor everyone who refuses to do the same... Including his best friend/ex-lover and his mentor, people who respected, loved and cared about him... And might have had some knowledge to possibly find another solution (or at least, reduce the number of deaths), since one of them is the world's most respected Paladin and the other is a freaking archmage.

The RE equivalent would be this:

- *Vice-President:* Oh, no... Signs of zombie infection?! NUKE THE ENTIRE CITY!!! NOW!!!
- *Head of CDC:* Maybe there's anoth-
- *Vice-President:* TRAITOR! YOU'RE FIRED! *_pushes big red button_*

----------


## GloatingSwine

> Yeah, but it doesn't have magic... Especially not magic-that-is-literally-powered-by-righteousness, you know... The kind the Arthas and Uther use.
> 
> But again, the issue isn't that Arthas decided to go with the bloodiest course of action... But how he immediately jumps to it without spending a single second to ponder about any other possibilities, and then just as quickly labels a traitor everyone who refuses to do the same...


Except, of course, doing nothing would be _much_ bloodier, and Arthas _does_ know that. From the moment the tainted grain arrives _everyone in Stratholme is already dead_. They have neither the resources, the time, or the method to concretely identify and isolate the infected, who are a high proportion of the population anyway.

Either the infected turn and then turn everyone else, or they meet a merciful end. Nobody has an alternative (even in this thread the alternative is "wait for everyone to turn and then kill the turned", saving nobody but increasing the pain and terror of the citizens rather than granting them a swift death).

----------


## Keltest

> Except, of course, doing nothing would be _much_ bloodier, and Arthas _does_ know that. From the moment the tainted grain arrives _everyone in Stratholme is already dead_. They have neither the resources, the time, or the method to concretely identify and isolate the infected, who are a high proportion of the population anyway.
> 
> Either the infected turn and then turn everyone else, or they meet a merciful end. Nobody has an alternative (even in this thread the alternative is "wait for everyone to turn and then kill the turned", saving nobody but increasing the pain and terror of the citizens rather than granting them a swift death).


Indeed. Arthas is, from his perspective, about to do the most painful and difficult thing he will ever have to do in his life, something that goes against every fiber of his being as a prince and paladin, because as he understands it there is no choice at all that gets the city out of this OK. And Uther is refusing to help. Is it any wonder he snapped?

----------


## Talakeal

I wouldn't look too heavily at in game geography.

In WC2 Stratholme was an open port city primarily used for oil harvesting with no real geographical borders but the ocean.
In WC3 Stratholme is a pretty open metropolis with no major geographical borders and open room for Arthas to build a basecamp right outside of the city.
In WoW Stratholme is an instance with two small gates and impassible mountains around the rest to prevent players from seeing the non-instanced unfinished terrain.
In WC3 Reforged Stratholme is much closer to the WoW geography, but the mountains are replaced by city walls and it includes a large harbor. IMO this is the best melding of all three ideas.

All of these are game mechanics though, I wouldn't use any of them for analyzing the lore as they are clearly abstractions, for example none of them are nearly large enough to house 25,000 people.

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## Seppl

> But again, the issue isn't that Arthas decided to go with the bloodiest course of action... But how he immediately jumps to it without spending a single second to ponder about any other possibilities, and then just as quickly labels a traitor everyone who refuses to do the same... Including his best friend/ex-lover and his mentor, people who respected, loved and cared about him...


By that time they have been traveling for at least a day, trying to reach the city before the worst could happen. As the commander, it is Arthas' job to consider possible outcomes and actions in advance, so that he does not waste valuable time in a crisis. Jaina and Uther had been with him on the road all the way. They even got a warning by Medivh on the way, that their cause is already lost. Apparently, they could not come up with a better plan for the worst (but expected) case in a day. Were Uther and Jaina just coping, denying that the worst could happen? After having at least a day to think about the situation, when the command is finally given, their only input is to refuse to obey. What other options should Arthas consider in this situation? He had the whole day to come up with the plan and accept that this was the best action to take should they come to late (And it is! We know that!). He even most probably discussed this with the others on the way. Why should he hesitate now?

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## Forum Explorer

> Except, of course, doing nothing would be _much_ bloodier, and Arthas _does_ know that. From the moment the tainted grain arrives _everyone in Stratholme is already dead_. They have neither the resources, the time, or the method to concretely identify and isolate the infected, who are a high proportion of the population anyway.
> 
> Either the infected turn and then turn everyone else, or they meet a merciful end. Nobody has an alternative (even in this thread the alternative is "wait for everyone to turn and then kill the turned", saving nobody but increasing the pain and terror of the citizens rather than granting them a swift death).


See that's a really big and dangerous assumption that everyone has eaten the infected grain. Particularly if it was freshly delivered. There would likely be a decent amount of people who may have purchased it, but hadn't actually used it yet due to working through old food reserves. Or simply never bought that grain in the first place.

----------


## Rynjin

> Moving back to the actual topic of this thread for a moment:
> 
> 
> Its worth noting that Deku has some feats of impressive speed of his own, even if we're only using the anime/movies for reference, though my exact knowledge of the calculations involved are minimal, if anyone is interested in reading what some others think, this post appears to contain a fairly dramatic line of reasoning that i would not find out of place on DB itself.  (massive spoilers for the anime, movie, and manga are present in this post. be warned. https://www.quora.com/How-fast-is-Deku-any-time-of-OFA)


I take issue with a couple of these.

1.) The manga author stating when a movie takes place in the timeline does not make said movie canon. We all know, for an example, that in DBZ, Broly takes place in the period of training before the Cell Games. That doesn't make it canon, we just know when the movie is set.
--1a.) A storm being bigger than an island does not make destroying the storm a greater feat than destroying the island.

2.) Criteria for Aoyama's laser to actually be light or "photon" based is not met at all. The relevant character says they can absorb light, not that Aoyama's laser beam IS light. It would be eye-opening to look at the actual Japanese text and see if context is missing, because it's a pretty standard boast in anime for a character to say something in Japanese like "No problem, my ability is strong enough to even absorb light!" (implied: boastfulness, "this is well within my capabilities", general exposition) and it to get translated by Viz (I hate Viz, fan translations by experienced groups are typically better) as a flat statement with zero nuance.

----------


## theNater

> Either the infected turn and then turn everyone else, or they meet a merciful end. Nobody has an alternative (even in this thread the alternative is "wait for everyone to turn and then kill the turned", saving nobody but increasing the pain and terror of the citizens rather than granting them a swift death).


Arthas' methodology is to light houses on fire, then attack those fleeing the flames.




> Indeed. Arthas is, from his perspective, about to do the most painful and difficult thing he will ever have to do in his life, something that goes against every fiber of his being as a prince and paladin, because as he understands it there is no choice at all that gets the city out of this OK. And Uther is refusing to help. Is it any wonder he snapped?


When soldiers murder civilians, some people call it a war crime.  But isn't the real crime refusing to help the murderers?

----------


## Seppl

> When soldiers murder civilians, some people call it a war crime.  But isn't the real crime refusing to help the murderers?


The whole point of the matter is that these people are no longer civilians at this point but enemy sleeper agents (though unwittingly) who will attack before dawn. There is no real world equivalent to this because mind control this powerful does not exist. Think about Hollywood style hypnosis: You are a CIA agent. The (innocent) victim of the hypnosis is already aiming a gun at the president. Do you shoot to stop them? Maybe there is a way to break the hypnosis but you do not know how. They are pulling the trigger. 3. 2. 1. What did you do? The answer was probably not to conduct a meeting with your friends to discuss the morality of the situation and express your feelings towards the cruelty of this moral dilemma. Either you shot the innocent hypnosis victim or the president is now dead.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> See that's a really big and dangerous assumption that everyone has eaten the infected grain. Particularly if it was freshly delivered. There would likely be a decent amount of people who may have purchased it, but hadn't actually used it yet due to working through old food reserves. Or simply never bought that grain in the first place.


You're not thinking through the whole situation.

Not everyone _needs_ to have eaten the infected grain because _there is no safe and timely way to find out who has and who has not_, and if you miss even a few that have then they will turn and they will kill and turn others who will turn others and so on.

The people of Stratholme _are dead_. Either by the tainted grain, the claws of ghouls, or by the swords of Arthas' men. Those are the choices. Uther doesn't like those choices, but I'm going to borrow Keltest's signature here and talk about its context to address Uther:

Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.

That's a quote from Geralt of Rivia in his first published story, and because he lives up to that, because he is in a situation where he must choose between a greater and lesser evil and _refuses the choice_, the greater evil wins and everyone else loses (including Geralt). Uther would do the same. He would refuse to choose the lesser of two evils because he can't bear the sin of doing it and in so doing guarantee that the greater would triumph.

And that leaves Arthas alone to bear the weight of it, and basically everything else he does in the campaign is to try and make having done that "worth it".

----------


## Rynjin

> You're not thinking through the whole situation.
> 
> Not everyone _needs_ to have eaten the infected grain because _there is no safe and timely way to find out who has and who has not_, and if you miss even a few that have then they will turn and they will kill and turn others who will turn others and so on.
> 
> The people of Stratholme _are dead_. Either by the tainted grain, the claws of ghouls, or by the swords of Arthas' men. Those are the choices. Uther doesn't like those choices, but I'm going to borrow Keltest's signature here and talk about its context to address Uther:


This is an extremely suspect assumption. Assuming we're talking about greater/lesser evils, you put the city under martial law and execute anyone who shows signs of illness. Even if some turn and infect others, they're not perfectly spreading in an exponential fashion. You put down minor outbreaks, execute the injured, and prevent spread.

This takes more time, but there was to my knowledge no time crunch except for the situation at Stratholme "going nuclear' via mass spread.

Even if the issue is Mal'Ganis orchestrating more outbreaks across the countryside, it is arguable that preventing the turning of Stratholme into a military asset while retaining its status as...a city, and presumably a source of wealth and strategic resources, is logistically worth the loss of an arbitrary number of smaller settlements.

----------


## theNater

> Not everyone _needs_ to have eaten the infected grain because _there is no safe and timely way to find out who has and who has not_, and if you miss even a few that have then they will turn and they will kill and turn others who will turn others and so on.


Important note: this version of the plague does not spread from person to person.  People killed by a ghoul do not turn automatically; a necromancer has to animate them separately.




> The people of Stratholme _are dead_. Either by the tainted grain, the claws of ghouls, or by the swords of Arthas' men. Those are the choices.


Don't forget burning to death in the fires Arthas sets. :Small Wink:

----------


## GloatingSwine

> This is an extremely suspect assumption. Assuming we're talking about greater/lesser evils, you put the city under martial law and execute anyone who shows signs of illness. Even if some turn and infect others, they're not perfectly spreading in an exponential fashion. You put down minor outbreaks, execute the injured, and prevent spread.
> 
> This takes more time, but there was to my knowledge no time crunch except for the situation at Stratholme "going nuclear' via mass spread.
> 
> Even if the issue is Mal'Ganis orchestrating more outbreaks across the countryside, it is arguable that preventing the turning of Stratholme into a military asset while retaining its status as...a city, and presumably a source of wealth and strategic resources, is logistically worth the loss of an arbitrary number of smaller settlements.


It also takes volume of force Arthas doesn't have. And remember that Mal'Ganis is not orchestrating more outbreaks across the countryside, he's _in Stratholme_ harvesting the infected and the dead for the scourge. (That's the actual mission, its a race against him).

----------


## Keltest

As far as the villagers go, we know they're plagued because they're transforming right in front of us. It's no guess at that point.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> You're not thinking through the whole situation.
> 
> Not everyone _needs_ to have eaten the infected grain because _there is no safe and timely way to find out who has and who has not_, and if you miss even a few that have then they will turn and they will kill and turn others who will turn others and so on.
> 
> The people of Stratholme _are dead_. Either by the tainted grain, the claws of ghouls, or by the swords of Arthas' men. Those are the choices. Uther doesn't like those choices, but I'm going to borrow Keltest's signature here and talk about its context to address Uther:
> 
> Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.
> 
> That's a quote from Geralt of Rivia in his first published story, and because he lives up to that, because he is in a situation where he must choose between a greater and lesser evil and _refuses the choice_, the greater evil wins and everyone else loses (including Geralt). Uther would do the same. He would refuse to choose the lesser of two evils because he can't bear the sin of doing it and in so doing guarantee that the greater would triumph.
> ...


Except those who are healthy can actually help contain the plague by reporting those who are sick, and helping build containment to make it so the ghouls can't mass into an unstoppable horde. What's more those killed by ghouls won't automatically turn into ghouls themselves. Also people won't all die at the same time. It'll be a steady stream of people falling sick and dying, and turning into ghouls. So the people of Strathome aren't necessarily dead, particularly if you remove the absolute quality of that last category. If Arthras isn't killing literally everyone, you might have more people to fight the ghouls, and to put down the plague victims as they are identified. 

What's more, if you aren't on an absolute 'kill everyone' stance, you very well might retain both Uther, his men, and Jainia's assistance, which pretty much doubles your force, and lets you retain a powerful archmage with good AoE spells and the ability to teleport. Plus Uther's men are elite knights who are much more capable than the average footman, or ghoul for that matter. It would only be a hopeless battle if it was literally everyone being sick and they'd all die at pretty much the same time. 




> Important note: this version of the plague does not spread from person to person.  People killed by a ghoul do not turn automatically; a necromancer has to animate them separately.
> 
> 
> Don't forget burning to death in the fires Arthas sets.


Right. Otherwise Arthas' plan of killing them before they turn wouldn't work at all.

----------


## Rynjin

> It also takes volume of force Arthas doesn't have. And remember that Mal'Ganis is not orchestrating more outbreaks across the countryside, he's _in Stratholme_ harvesting the infected and the dead for the scourge. (That's the actual mission, its a race against him).


So Mal'Ganis is contained inside the city where he can do no further harm and delaying him only helps you in the long term? _Interesting._

Also "a volume of force he doesn't have" is suspect.

If Arthas can undertake a wholesale slaughter of people when outnumbered 5 to 1, he can much more easily undertake actions that DON'T require him to treat all 25, 000 inhabitants of the city as enemy combatants.

You really think 5000 men can't occupy a city? Historical cities have held a lot more people with a lot less, at least in the short term. Some historical estimates set the bar for entry as low as 5 soldiers per _1000 inhabitants_ for a hostile occupation. Even at the max end of the proposed scale (50 soldiers per 1000 inhabitants), Arthas has enough men with plenty to spare to keep people in line.

For a mostly peaceful one? He has plenty, especially when you count however many men Uther has under his command and disposable combatants like the Water Elementals I presume Jaina can summon.

----------


## Keltest

> So Mal'Ganis is contained inside the city where he can do no further harm and delaying him only helps you in the long term? _Interesting._
> 
> Also "a volume of force he doesn't have" is suspect.
> 
> If Arthas can undertake a wholesale slaughter of people when outnumbered 5 to 1, he can much more easily undertake actions that DON'T require him to treat all 25, 000 inhabitants of the city as enemy combatants.
> 
> You really think 5000 men can't occupy a city? Historical cities have held a lot more people with a lot less, at least in the short term. Some historical estimates set the bar for entry as low as 5 soldiers per _1000 inhabitants_ for a hostile occupation. Even at the max end of the proposed scale (50 soldiers per 1000 inhabitants), Arthas has enough men with plenty to spare to keep people in line.
> 
> For a mostly peaceful one? He has plenty, especially when you count however many men Uther has under his command and disposable combatants like the Water Elementals I presume Jaina can summon.


Mal'Ganis can teleport, the entire city really was infected, and we don't know how big a force Arthas had at the time, so I'm unclear how this supports anything.

----------


## Rynjin

> Mal'Ganis can teleport, the entire city really was infected, and we don't know how big a force Arthas had at the time, so I'm unclear how this supports anything.


He had a force big enough to slaughter 25000 people to the last man before they could organize any sort of resistance whatsoever, which gives us a pretty decent idea of his forces.

----------


## Keltest

> He had a force big enough to slaughter 25000 people to the last man before they could organize any sort of resistance whatsoever, which gives us a pretty decent idea of his forces.


Not really. It wasn't an open battle (preventing such was half the point) and they were unarmed and unarmored peasants against knights in plate who were ostensibly their protectors.

----------


## Rynjin

> Not really. It wasn't an open battle (preventing such was half the point) and they were unarmed and unarmored peasants against knights in plate who were ostensibly their protectors.


Yeah, it wasn't an open battle. Making it a worse overall scenario for the knights.

Having to go house to house and street to street killing "unarmed and unarmored" peasants (who should never be staying that way long, the differences between a pitchfork and a short spear are mostly academic) is kind of a worst case scenario for a heavy armor squadron. How many peasants do you have to stack up to match a single knight in plate? 2? 3? 5? Pretty much whatever that number is, the people in town are able to meet it in a "fight or die" scenario, realistically, if Arthas really is outnumbered to the extent people keep trying to paint the scenario as.

Killing every single peasant in town is way harder than simply occupying it.

Of course, more realistically, this isn't a "fight or die" for the peasants. It's "flee or die". What are the knights gonna do if they scatter into the countryside? Chase them? All of them? In every direction? For how long?

The only way the scenario works is if Arthas has enough soldiers to encircle the entire town and completely lock down all conceivable exit points. In which case, again, he has enough soldiers to perform an orderly occupation and get his dirty business done with much less hassle.

The idea that slaughtering every person in the city was the most expedient solution to the problem is patently absurd, because no matter HOW many men Arthas has, "culling" the population of an entire city is more difficult and takes much, much longer than any other potential solution.

----------


## theNater

> He had a force big enough to slaughter 25000 people to the last man before they could organize any sort of resistance whatsoever, which gives us a pretty decent idea of his forces.


Recall, most of the people Arthas is murdering are very sick, because they have been poisoned.

----------


## Rynjin

> Recall, most of the people Arthas is murdering are very sick, because they have been poisoned.


Seems like he'd have an even easier time wrangling them then.

Again, any argument that reduces the resistance a slaughter would logically face reduces the resistance to _literally any other action he could conceivably take_ by an equal or greater amount.

----------


## Keltest

> Seems like he'd have an even easier time wrangling them then.
> 
> Again, any argument that reduces the resistance a slaughter would logically face reduces the resistance to _literally any other action he could conceivably take_ by an equal or greater amount.


The peasants arent an army, theyre peasants. Theyre sick, theyre hiding in their homes cowering. They dont know whats happening. There are undead in the street and their prince is fighting them, but the human soldiers are also killing peasants. They absolutely arent uniting to form some sort of defensive front against a person who is nominally their savior.

They dont become an army unless Mal'Ganis collects them first, which is what Arthas is trying to prevent (and, incidentally, is the defeat condition for the mission).

----------


## Rynjin

> The peasants arent an army, theyre peasants. Theyre sick, theyre hiding in their homes cowering. They dont know whats happening. There are undead in the street and their prince is fighting them, but the human soldiers are also killing peasants. They absolutely arent uniting to form some sort of defensive front against a person who is nominally their savior.
> 
> They dont become an army unless Mal'Ganis collects them first, which is what Arthas is trying to prevent (and, incidentally, is the defeat condition for the mission).


So you're saying the peasants are already self-quarantining and making it easy for the soldiers to get the situation in check and take control of the city?

Damn, that sounds like it makes it really easy for Arthas to take my suggestion, eh?

Again, and I cannot stress this enough, the logistics behind a systemic slaughter of an entire city, or any arbitrarily large unit of people, are exponentially more difficult to achieve than taking control of the populace. It is literally the single most difficult thing to do in a situation like this.

It is genuinely not a moral dilemma, Arthas is just a dumbass.

----------


## Keltest

> So you're saying the peasants are already self-quarantining and making it easy for the soldiers to get the situation in check and take control of the city?
> 
> Damn, that sounds like it makes it really easy for Arthas to take my suggestion, eh?
> 
> Again, and I cannot stress this enough, the logistics behind a systemic slaughter of an entire city, or any arbitrarily large unit of people, are exponentially more difficult to achieve than taking control of the populace. It is literally the single most difficult thing to do in a situation like this.
> 
> It is genuinely not a moral dilemma, Arthas is just a dumbass.


Taking control of it and doing what with them? Watching them turn into undead then getting swarmed by an army five times the size of your hypothetical occupying force?

The problem was never the peasants, the problem was the part where they turn into ghouls and start rampaging across the countryside, growing their numbers exponentially as the necromancers behind the plague raise their victims.

----------


## Rynjin

> Taking control of it and doing what with them? Watching them turn into undead then getting swarmed by an army five times the size of your hypothetical occupying force?


I explained this part already, in the very first post I made on the subject. As it turns out, an occupation does not involve the occupying force standing around with their thumbs up their asses.




> The problem was never the peasants, the problem was the part where they turn into ghouls and start rampaging across the countryside, growing their numbers exponentially as the necromancers behind the plague raise their victims.


Seems like you'd have an easier time rooting out the necromancers (who could just raise the corpses you leave behind after slaughtering the peasants anyway?) if you weren't causing undue chaos such that they could move freely.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> So Mal'Ganis is contained inside the city where he can do no further harm and delaying him only helps you in the long term? _Interesting._
> 
> Also "a volume of force he doesn't have" is suspect.
> 
> If Arthas can undertake a wholesale slaughter of people when outnumbered 5 to 1, he can much more easily undertake actions that DON'T require him to treat all 25, 000 inhabitants of the city as enemy combatants.
> 
> You really think 5000 men can't occupy a city? Historical cities have held a lot more people with a lot less, at least in the short term. Some historical estimates set the bar for entry as low as 5 soldiers per _1000 inhabitants_ for a hostile occupation. Even at the max end of the proposed scale (50 soldiers per 1000 inhabitants), Arthas has enough men with plenty to spare to keep people in line.
> 
> For a mostly peaceful one? He has plenty, especially when you count however many men Uther has under his command and disposable combatants like the Water Elementals I presume Jaina can summon.


How many of those historical cities were populated with people who were turning into superhumanly strong undead hellbeasts who would tear the occupying force to shreds with no regard for their own safety?

Was it none of them? I bet it was.




> Again, and I cannot stress this enough, the logistics behind a systemic slaughter of an entire city, or any arbitrarily large unit of people, are exponentially more difficult to achieve than taking control of the populace. It is literally the single most difficult thing to do in a situation like this.


And again, _there is no control of the populace_, the populace is a bomb of undead horror with an active hostile force running around lighting fuses. Any army that divided its force to try and control the people would be slaughtered in detail by Mal'Ganis and then raised to bolster his forces right alongside the civilians, because he and his army are _there in the city_. Right there, doing his thing as soon as you arrive.  Building up a force which will, if not countered _right now_ overwhelm the entire kingdom (and usher in the burning legion much faster).

There is no slow and careful way to do this, which is reinforced by the actual mission which is a race with Mal'Ganis.

----------


## Keltest

> I explained this part already, in the very first post I made on the subject. As it turns out, an occupation does not involve the occupying force standing around with their thumbs up their asses.


Yeah, but your very first post also said there was no time crunch, when there are in fact two time crunches, so I assumed you didnt want to go back to something that was obviously wrong.

----------


## Lemmy

And again: Arthas course of action turned out to be the "right" one almost by coincidence.

He didn't even think about finding another solution. He didn't even ask the more experience guy with holy powers or the woman with mastery over the arcane. He didn't consider the possibility that at least some of the citizens might not be infected and/or might be resistant to the plague. The game gives us a simplified version, where you control a few dozen units instead of thousands, but it's statistically impossible for the plague to have affected every. single. citizen. And even if that was the case... Arthas had no way of knowing that. He just assumed it was so in order to justify the slaughter.

And if that wasn't proof that he did that out or ruthlessness rather than pragmatism, then he immediately banning Uther and labeling him, Jaina and all his men as traitors is... And so is every other action he takes on that campaign.

What makes him a ruthless tyrant in this section isn't the fact that he had to kill everyone, but that he immediately jumped to that conclusion without a moment's hesitation and without a single thought to even considering other possibilities... Callings his friends "traitors" and then proceeding to betray his own men on the very next mission is just the evil icing on the evil cake.

----------


## Keltest

> And again: Arthas course of action turned out to be the "right" one almost by coincidence.
> 
> He didn't even think about finding another solution. He didn't even ask the more experience guy with holy powers or the woman with mastery over the arcane. He didn't consider the possibility that at least some of the citizens might not be infected and/or might be resistant to the plague. The game gives us a simplified version, where you control a few dozen units instead of thousands, but it's statistically impossible for the plague to have affected every. single. citizen. And even if that was the case... Arthas had no way of knowing that. He just assumed it was so in order to justify the slaughter.
> 
> And if that wasn't proof that he did that out or ruthlessness rather than pragmatism, then he immediately banning Uther and labeling him, Jaina and all his men as traitors is... And so is every other action he takes on that campaign.
> 
> What makes him a ruthless tyrant in this section isn't the fact that he had to kill everyone, but that he immediately jumped to that conclusion without a moment's hesitation and without a single thought to even considering other possibilities... Callings his friends "traitors" and then proceeding to betray his own men on the very next mission is just the evil icing on the evil cake.


Arthas came to the right conclusion because it was an artificial scenario designed specifically to force him to make that choice, which had no room for nuance or consideration. Its not a random thing, the entire way the plague played out was specifically engineered to manipulate Arthas well before he even got involved or the plague actually started. Heck, you even have to declare the actual literal reality on the ground to be impossible in order to justify calling Arthas as needlessly ruthless.

----------


## Lemmy

> Arthas came to the right conclusion because it was an artificial scenario designed specifically to force him to make that choice, which had no room for nuance or consideration. Its not a random thing, the entire way the plague played out was specifically engineered to manipulate Arthas well before he even got involved or the plague actually started.


And he fell and became a ruthless tyrant... And kept falling for it due to being a ruthless tyrant. What's your point? A good guy who becomes evil is still evil, no matter how he started... His story might be a tragic one, and motives might be understandable, but that doesn't make him any less evil.




> Heck, you even have to declare the actual literal reality on the ground to be impossible in order to justify calling Arthas as needlessly ruthless.


Turns out that basic logic often applies to fictional worlds too.

Also I don't need to mention reality to point out that his _immediate_ choice of the most vicious and ruthless course of action possible is... Well... Vicious and ruthless. Specially considering how he treated Uther and Jaina, and what he did next...

----------


## GloatingSwine

> And he fell and became a ruthless tyrant... And kept falling for it due to being a ruthless tyrant. What's your point? A good guy who becomes evil is still evil, no matter how he started... His story might be a tragic one, and motives might be understandable, but that doesn't make him any less evil.


Nobody is arguing that Arthas did not fall to evil, people are arguing that _there were no other options at Stratholme_.

Cull the population or allow Mal'Ganis to claim them as a tidal wave of undead to drown Lordaeron.

Arthas fell because he was forced into a no-win scenario and the only people who could have shared the burden of the terrible thing that was necessary balked in fear and could not act.

----------


## Rynjin

> Yeah, but your very first post also said there was no time crunch, when there are in fact two time crunches, so I assumed you didnt want to go back to something that was obviously wrong.


The "time crunch" is three entire days at the worst case. That's how long it takes the plague to run its course, in every one of the infected.

And that's the lowest reasonable amount of time to expect, if everybody in the entire city somehow ate grain from the exact same shipment, at the exact same time which is...uhhhhh... unlikely, let's go with that.

So that gives you plenty of time to kill those who ate the grain earliest and then figure out a workable plan going forward. You probably don't have enough time to track down the right shipment and all the people who bought it or anything, but you could torch the granaries and start segregating the sick from the well.

I'm blanking on what the second time crunch was, exactly. Mal'Ganis...exists? Which is neat and all, but he quite obviously can't take on your whole army at once, or he wouldn't need the zombie army at all.

----------


## GloatingSwine

> I'm blanking on what the second time crunch was, exactly. Mal'Ganis...exists? Which is neat and all, but he quite obviously can't take on your whole army at once, or he wouldn't need the zombie army at all.


Mal'Ganis is present, with a roughly equivalent force that's well entrenched (he has a well protected base north of the city), and is actively harvesting the turned. He's doing that _right now_ as Arthas arrives.

Remember that if Mal'Ganis takes the population of Stratholme he doesn't have enough force to beat Arthas but to wipe the entire kingdom of Lordaeron off the map as a sacrifice to the Burning Legion.

----------


## Rynjin

> Mal'Ganis is present, with a roughly equivalent force that's well entrenched (he has a well protected base north of the city), and is actively harvesting the turned. He's doing that _right now_ as Arthas arrives.
> 
> Remember that if Mal'Ganis takes the population of Stratholme he doesn't have enough force to beat Arthas but to wipe the entire kingdom of Lordaeron off the map as a sacrifice to the Burning Legion.


Except if Arthas is there, eliminating undead and preventing others from being turned, Mal'Ganis already doesn't get that force. If he wants it, he'd have to un-entrench his forces and come siege Stratholme himself. And would be facing the combined might of both Arthas's forces and Uther's cavalry.

I think the issue some people are having is assuming that events don't affect other events. Mal'Ganis can do little on his own as a direct threat to Arthas and Uther or their armies. He would need to sacrifice something in the attempt to regain the advantage he lost by Arthas showing up in the first place 

It is extremely apparent that his "harvesting" is not fast enough to make a difference in the immediate future. Because Arthas is able to easily dispatch the units he's raised and just as easily prevent more from being raised.

It is only a threat in the long term, if the problem is completely ignored.

----------


## Keltest

> Except if Arthas is there, eliminating undead and preventing others from being turned, Mal'Ganis already doesn't get that force. If he wants it, he'd have to un-entrench his forces and come siege Stratholme himself. And would be facing the combined might of both Arthas's forces and Uther's cavalry.
> 
> I think the issue some people are having is assuming that events don't affect other events. Mal'Ganis can do little on his own as a direct threat to Arthas and Uther or their armies. He would need to sacrifice something in the attempt to regain the advantage he lost by Arthas showing up in the first place 
> 
> It is extremely apparent that his "harvesting" is not fast enough to make a difference in the immediate future. Because Arthas is able to easily dispatch the units he's raised and just as easily prevent more from being raised.
> 
> It is only a threat in the long term, if the problem is completely ignored.


Right, Mal'Ganis is manipulating Arthas to force him into a specific course of action. Thats the point. Mal'Ganis wants Arthas to cull Stratholme. That is in fact his ideal end game scenario. Sure, he could go off and spread the plague somewhere else or something, but the point of going after Stratholme is to push Arthas closer and closer to the edge. The threat of the undead army is to prevent Arthas from calling his bluff and to push up the urgency of action, not to actually generate an undead army. Likewise Mal'Ganis there taunting him and generally keeping him on the move and not allowing him to stop and catch his breath. If Arthas gets KOed by Uther or something instead of going through with it, the undead army is the consolation prize, so that heads Mal'Ganis wins and tails Arthas loses.

Beyond that, Mal'Ganis also needs Arthas to want to follow him to Northrend after its all done, so he needs to be there acting as the face of this terrible deed.

----------


## Rynjin

> Right, Mal'Ganis is manipulating Arthas to force him into a specific course of action. Thats the point. Mal'Ganis wants Arthas to cull Stratholme. That is in fact his ideal end game scenario. Sure, he could go off and spread the plague somewhere else or something, but the point of going after Stratholme is to push Arthas closer and closer to the edge. The threat of the undead army is to prevent Arthas from calling his bluff and to push up the urgency of action, not to actually generate an undead army. Likewise Mal'Ganis there taunting him and generally keeping him on the move and not allowing him to stop and catch his breath. If Arthas gets KOed by Uther or something instead of going through with it, the undead army is the consolation prize, so that heads Mal'Ganis wins and tails Arthas loses.
> 
> Beyond that, Mal'Ganis also needs Arthas to want to follow him to Northrend after its all done, so he needs to be there acting as the face of this terrible deed.


Sure. And like all "mastermind" plans in bad stories, it only works because Mal'Ganis read ahead in the script. His plan fails if Arthas takes basically any action besides the one he ended up taking.

To be fair, maybe he knew ahead of time that Arthas is a poor general, at least when it comes to planning. He's a lead from the front "inspire the men to fight harder" sort, not a tactical genius. But that's a hell of a gamble to take on Arthas going with his first kneejerk reaction to the scenario, and everyone else involved being unable to convince him to take another one.

It's extremely convenient that Arthas chooses the outcome most beneficial to Mal'Ganis and that Arthas's most trusted allies frankly don't even TRY to convince him not to make that mistake.

I've been pretty hard on Arthas in this discussion, but Uther takes a lot of blame as well for doing nothing besides refusing to comply without offering any kind of commentary besides "I refuse", and so does Jaina for as far as I remember saying...nothing at all? She just kinda leaves too.

But my main pushback here has been against the narrative that culling Stratholme was the right decision tactically, and I genuinely don't see that being the case in any context.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> But my main pushback here has been against the narrative that culling Stratholme was the right decision tactically, and I genuinely don't see that being the case in any context.


Agreed. any plan that involves doing the path of most resistance like slaughter is out done by any one plan more reasonable. the city wasn't going to explode into undead if he took a few more minutes to think this out a little more. like sure, quick action but if it was a disease it'd be something that would happen in a few hours and he would have time to come up with at least a basic plan better than the culling.

and thing like many "mastermind" plans, Arthas is actually not that vital to anything except being some local control node for the scourge until he is needed to become the Lich King, since there is nothing particularly magically significant about him, that means this role could've been filled.....by literally any human in the world. Mal'ganis just focused on him for some reason. like where are the alternate Frostmourne candidates that could've picked it up instead? did Mal'ganis and the Lich King just expect the Arthas plan to go so well they wouldn't need anyone else? for a mastermind plan this is lacking in contingencies for what if things go terribly wrong. heck if Arthas listened to the dwarf at the last second, the whole plan is off the rails anyways. the plan relies more on Arthas consistently making bad decisions than anything the demons do to make sure the Frostmourne is wielded and some good candidate to command the Scourge is made.

----------


## Keltest

> Sure. And like all "mastermind" plans in bad stories, it only works because Mal'Ganis read ahead in the script. His plan fails if Arthas takes basically any action besides the one he ended up taking.
> 
> To be fair, maybe he knew ahead of time that Arthas is a poor general, at least when it comes to planning. He's a lead from the front "inspire the men to fight harder" sort, not a tactical genius. But that's a hell of a gamble to take on Arthas going with his first kneejerk reaction to the scenario, and everyone else involved being unable to convince him to take another one.
> 
> It's extremely convenient that Arthas chooses the outcome most beneficial to Mal'Ganis and that Arthas's most trusted allies frankly don't even TRY to convince him not to make that mistake.
> 
> I've been pretty hard on Arthas in this discussion, but Uther takes a lot of blame as well for doing nothing besides refusing to comply without offering any kind of commentary besides "I refuse", and so does Jaina for as far as I remember saying...nothing at all? She just kinda leaves too.
> 
> But my main pushback here has been against the narrative that culling Stratholme was the right decision tactically, and I genuinely don't see that being the case in any context.


Youre right, its almost like there were forces actively manipulating Arthas in order to force him to make decisions in a way most beneficial to their cause.

Oh wait.





> Agreed. any plan that involves doing the path of most resistance like slaughter is out done by any one plan more reasonable. the city wasn't going to explode into undead if he took a few more minutes to think this out a little more. like sure, quick action but if it was a disease it'd be something that would happen in a few hours and he would have time to come up with at least a basic plan better than the culling.
> 
> and thing like many "mastermind" plans, Arthas is actually not that vital to anything except being some local control node for the scourge until he is needed to become the Lich King, since there is nothing particularly magically significant about him, that means this role could've been filled.....by literally any human in the world. Mal'ganis just focused on him for some reason. like where are the alternate Frostmourne candidates that could've picked it up instead? did Mal'ganis and the Lich King just expect the Arthas plan to go so well they wouldn't need anyone else? for a mastermind plan this is lacking in contingencies for what if things go terribly wrong. heck if Arthas listened to the dwarf at the last second, the whole plan is off the rails anyways. the plan relies more on Arthas consistently making bad decisions than anything the demons do to make sure the Frostmourne is wielded and some good candidate to command the Scourge is made.


Its unclear to what degree the Lich King is actually prophetic versus just extremely good at guessing Arthas' behavior in particular, but its mentioned several times throughout the human and undead campaigns that the Lich King has accurately predicted the specific chain of events that occurred, beyond what is normal for even a powerful magical entity. Beyond that, Arthas was not essential to the Legion's plans at all, and indeed ends up being a liability when he reveals crucial information to Illidan due to the Lich King revolting against his enslavers. Involving Arthas was very much a desire of the Lich King, not specifically the Legion, and Mal'Ganis went along with it because the Lich King was, at the time, still apparently working towards the Legion's ends, and he was facilitating that.

----------


## Rynjin

> Youre right, its almost like there were forces actively manipulating Arthas in order to force him to make decisions in a way most beneficial to their cause.
> 
> Oh wait.


Manipulation is not like a magical, infallible method, and even less so when the target has a support system. Which Arthas nominally does, they just... spontaneously abandon him for no real reason? Mal'Ganis didn't have anything to do with that part, it was just narrative contrivance.

----------


## Keltest

> Manipulation is not like a magical, infallible method, and even less so when the target has a support system. Which Arthas nominally does, they just... spontaneously abandon him for no real reason? Mal'Ganis didn't have anything to do with that part, it was just narrative contrivance.


Sure, it was convenient. If they hadnt abandoned him then killing them or otherwise separating him from them would have been an important step. But its not like it would have completely ended their ability to poke and prod Arthas in the direction they wanted, it just would have to have been done differently. Killing Jaina would have driven him absolutely berserk, for example, and if they got Uther too (something they needed to do anyway) that would have been even better. They had some options if Stratholm was not the final push to get Arthas to go to Northrend.

----------


## Lemmy

> Nobody is arguing that Arthas did not fall to evil, people are arguing that _there were no other options at Stratholme_.


aAd again: The problem here isn't that he took that course of action, but that he immediately jumped to that without a second thought or a moment's hesitation.




> Arthas fell because he was forced into a no-win scenario and the only people who could have shared the burden of the terrible thing that was necessary balked in fear and could not act.


No. They refused to cooperate because they were not even given the chance to think or discuss the situation for half a second before being called traitors.

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## Keltest

> aAd again: The problem here isn't that he took that course of action, but that he immediately jumped to that without a second thought or a moment's hesitation.


Why? It was the right call. Should he waste time dramatically agonizing over it before doing it?




> No. They refused to cooperate because they were not even given the chance to think or discuss the situation for half a second before being called traitors.


Uther was called a traitor because he explicitly and directly refused a (theoretically) lawful order from his (theoretical) superior. Which is treason. Jaina was not called a traitor, nor indeed did she particularly participate in the conversation except to call out Arthas as being rather rash with antagonizing Uther. Your description of events is simply not accurate.

----------


## Forum Explorer

> Why? It was the right call. Should he waste time dramatically agonizing over it before doing it?
> 
> 
> 
> Uther was called a traitor because he explicitly and directly refused a (theoretically) lawful order from his (theoretical) superior. Which is treason. Jaina was not called a traitor, nor indeed did she particularly participate in the conversation except to call out Arthas as being rather rash with antagonizing Uther. Your description of events is simply not accurate.


Except it arguably wasn't. People have proposed plans that could work and not result in purging 100% of the population. Because it doesn't make sense for literally everyone to be infected by the disease, or for them to die all at the same time. A plan to purge the sick population and sparing the healthy population could work, particularly with Jania, Uther and Uther's knights help. 

And even if it was the right call, yes, yes he should. If agonizing over it keeps Uther and his forces around, than it is well worth the time spent. 


You shouldn't give orders you know won't be obeyed. Doing so either drives your soldiers away when they desert, or you look weak for backing down.

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## Lord Raziere

> Why? It was the right call. Should he waste time dramatically agonizing over it before doing it?
> 
> Uther was called a traitor because he explicitly and directly refused a (theoretically) lawful order from his (theoretical) superior. Which is treason. Jaina was not called a traitor, nor indeed did she particularly participate in the conversation except to call out Arthas as being rather rash with antagonizing Uther. Your description of events is simply not accurate.


Was it the right call? Stratholme remains in ruins to this day and was repopulated by undead, at his own hand. his "decisiveness" ended up causing the very thing he first at feared. he betrayed everyone, and thus everything he did up to taking the Frostmourne was for _nothing_.

----------


## Keltest

> Except it arguably wasn't. People have proposed plans that could work and not result in purging 100% of the population. Because it doesn't make sense for literally everyone to be infected by the disease, or for them to die all at the same time. A plan to purge the sick population and sparing the healthy population could work, particularly with Jania, Uther and Uther's knights help. 
> 
> And even if it was the right call, yes, yes he should. If agonizing over it keeps Uther and his forces around, than it is well worth the time spent. 
> 
> 
> You shouldn't give orders you know won't be obeyed. Doing so either drives your soldiers away when they desert, or you look weak for backing down.


People have certainly imagined scenarios where Arthas didnt have to purge the entire city, but since thats not what he was actually facing on the ground, it doesnt really prove any point other than that a different situation would turn out differently. And agonizing over it would absolutely not have kept Uther around, because Uther was not even considering the option. He flat out says as much.

Beyond that, both Uther and Jaina have flat out said that in hindsight, they were the ones in the wrong there for abandoning Arthas during a challenge that they had no reasonable alternative solutions for.

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## theNater

> Uther was called a traitor because he explicitly and directly refused a (theoretically) lawful order from his (theoretical) superior.


Reminder that, as he was not yet king, Arthas was not Uther's actual superior.




> Beyond that, both Uther and Jaina have flat out said that in hindsight, they were the ones in the wrong there for abandoning Arthas during a challenge that they had no reasonable alternative solutions for.


Both of them?  'Cause in this cutscene, we get "we should have stopped him" from Jaina.  (It's at the 38 second mark, you can check the captions if you're having trouble hearing it under the effects).

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## Keltest

> Reminder that, as he was not yet king, Arthas was not Uther's actual superior.


 Its really unclear to what degree he has the authority to do so. Uther just dips instead of trying to argue, but nobody really challenges Arthas on his actual ability to issue the command or suspend Uther's paladins.





> Both of them?  'Cause in this cutscene, we get "we should have stopped him" from Jaina.  (It's at the 38 second mark, you can check the captions if you're having trouble hearing it under the effects).


Yes. Consider the context of that scene is that Jaina is being psychically tortured by an outside party telling her that she is directly responsible for all the bad things that happened during WC3 and WoW that she was present for.

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## Delicious Taffy

Not to interrupt this extremely non-circular Warcraft thread, but it looks like the blurbs are up for the next Death Battle. Those anime boys sure do have some wacky powers. I've changed my mind, this Asta fellow is probably gonna win it. He has more cool stuff he can do.

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## theNater

> Its really unclear to what degree he has the authority to do so. Uther just dips instead of trying to argue, but nobody really challenges Arthas on his actual ability to issue the command or suspend Uther's paladins.


Uther does argue, he points out that Arthas isn't king.  He dips instead of getting his paladins into a fight with Arthas' knights.




> Yes. Consider the context of that scene is that Jaina is being psychically tortured by an outside party telling her that she is directly responsible for all the bad things that happened during WC3 and WoW that she was present for.


Would you like to provide evidence for your claim, or are you happy to just come up for excuses for why evidence to the contrary doesn't count?

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## Rynjin

> Not to interrupt this extremely non-circular Warcraft thread, but it looks like the blurbs are up for the next Death Battle. Those anime boys sure do have some wacky powers. I've changed my mind, this Asta fellow is probably gonna win it. He has more cool stuff he can do.


The blurb is extra...deceptive this time around. While I think Asta is going to end up taking the W here, Deku has like 7 other superpowers they didn't mention; the super strength/speed and abilities that come with it are just the base powerset.

But none of them are likely to matter in the face of the sheer overwhelming physical advantage the Swole Savior has over Izuku "I have paper skin and glass bones" Midoriya.

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## Traab

> The blurb is extra...deceptive this time around. While I think Asta is going to end up taking the W here, Deku has like 7 other superpowers they didn't mention; the super strength/speed and abilities that come with it are just the base powerset.
> 
> But none of them are likely to matter in the face of the sheer overwhelming physical advantage the Swole Savior has over Izuku "I have paper skin and glass bones" Midoriya.


Yeah thats a serious over exaggeration of the problem. Yes he breaks his body on the regular. But he does so by pulling off feats of utter insanity like finger flicking glaciers so hard the wind pressure shatters them. Or punching skyscraper sized robots so hard they get launched backwards totally caved in. When training super moves, he reveals he can shatter a human sized boulder with a single kick and not hurt himself at all and thats still pretty freaking early in the series. He gets a lot stronger and more durable from there.

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## Rynjin

> Yeah thats a serious over exaggeration of the problem. Yes he breaks his body on the regular. But he does so by pulling off feats of utter insanity like finger flicking glaciers so hard the wind pressure shatters them. Or punching skyscraper sized robots so hard they get launched backwards totally caved in. When training super moves, he reveals he can shatter a human sized boulder with a single kick and not hurt himself at all and thats still pretty freaking early in the series. He gets a lot stronger and more durable from there.


It overexaggerates the issue, but illustrates the difference between the two characters. Asta can do all of that (and more!) without hurting himself, and we have definitive proof that Midoriya can dish it out, but not take it.

Asta is likely going to take the speed category by Death Battle logic. He dodges light-based attacks sans superpowers, and scales up in speed from there when he stacks his actual powers on top of his raw physical stats. Even if they give Midoriya relativistic speed to match based on even more suspect DB logic than usual, Asta is exponentially faster than that baseline when drawing on his antimagic/demon powers.

He's also likely going to take the durability check. He has simply eaten attacks that would have vaporized Deku.

That just leaves attack power, where the characters are evenly matched, with Deku maybe having a SLIGHT advantage based on how they interpret some of Asta's feats. That interpretation could also go the other way and end up with Asta being a continent-level character in terms of attack power, which Deku is...not.

Deku in the best case at the current point in the series (which is...the final boss battle, not sure why they didn't wait a month or two for the series to wrap up for this to see whatever hax he gets at the end) scales 1:1 with All Might since he has some kludge workaround to him not being able to handle One For All at 100%, and I'm not sure All Might would be able to wrassle with Asta.

This isn't an utter setting-level mismatch, I think slotting Deku or All Might into the Black Clover universe would result in them being some of the strongest characters in the series...but, IMO, not THE strongest.

----------


## awa

Part of the problem is that black clover is the kind of series where each new enemy is not just stronger but exponentially stronger than the last requiring continuous power growth.

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## Delicious Taffy

> Part of the problem is that black clover is the kind of series where each new enemy is not just stronger but exponentially stronger than the last requiring continuous power growth.


Just once, I'd like to see a series where the bad guy of each arc is about as strong as the previous villain, just with different types of power so that instead of every solution being "You must unlock more true potential, hero", the good guys basically have to think up new and creative ways to use their individual abilities each time.

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## Rynjin

> Just once, I'd like to see a series where the bad guy of each arc is about as strong as the previous villain, just with different types of power so that instead of every solution being "You must unlock more true potential, hero", the good guys basically have to think up new and creative ways to use their individual abilities each time.


Eh, there are plenty of series like that. HunterxHunter (with the exception of the Chimera Ant arc), Jojo's, some arcs of Naruto (the series goes back and forth on how much power escalation is needed each arc, sometimes an out of the box solution is enough, sometimes a powerup is needed), World Trigger (especially; every character's "raw power" potential is locked in at the start of the series, so the only thing they CAN do is use what they have better from that starting point), etc.

HunterxHunter also gets props for being one of the only series I can think of that had BACKWARDS power scaling in one arc; the villain(s) of the Greed Island arc are actually a lot weaker than the villains of the York New City arc, and serves as almost a breather/training arc as a result, while not having the villains come off as a joke or a non-threat.

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## awa

> Just once, I'd like to see a series where the bad guy of each arc is about as strong as the previous villain, just with different types of power so that instead of every solution being "You must unlock more true potential, hero", the good guys basically have to think up new and creative ways to use their individual abilities each time.


speed grapher is not a battle manga and I was not overly impressed with the ending but it fits that criteria each new enemy is about as strong as the last but latter foes understand his power to a degree and work to counter it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_Grapher

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## tyckspoon

> Deku in the best case at the current point in the series (which is...the final boss battle, not sure why they didn't wait a month or two for the series to wrap up for this to see whatever hax he gets at the end) scales 1:1 with All Might since he has some kludge workaround to him not being able to handle One For All at 100%, and I'm not sure All Might would be able to wrassle with Asta.


Worth noting Deku will almost certainly end up significantly stronger than All Might, because as best as we can tell All Might never connected with/accessed the powers of the previous holders; Deku's current '100%' output is from using all of those extra powers to synergize with each other and make up for not being able to channel the full raw power of All For One (and one of them involves altering the inertia of things, which is Top Grade Bull***** Nonsense potential.) Probably won't be relevant in this battle unless they decide to just get unabashedly speculative, tho, since we really don't have any way to know what it looks like for Deku when he can use 100% All For One in conjunction with the full suite of powers, and there's a good chance My Hero doesn't even get there in its story.

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## Delicious Taffy

> HunterxHunter also gets props for being one of the only series I can think of that had BACKWARDS power scaling in one arc; the villain(s) of the Greed Island arc are actually a lot weaker than the villains of the York New City arc, and serves as almost a breather/training arc as a result, while not having the villains come off as a joke or a non-threat.


I always get Hunter×Hunter recommended when it comes to anime, but something about that art style makes me uncomfortable. Most of the shonen battle cartoons I've seen can kinda be "watched" with just the audio and an occasional glance at the screen to see if the background changed yet. Is it like that, or would I need to actually pay attention to the art?

JoJo though, I've definitely been into. Never really thought about the power levels of the characters, aside from brief mentions of them getting more skilled every so often. Especially once Stands come in, since they kind of only have so much that each one can do. Haven't gotten past Part 3, because for some reason the opening few seconds of Part 4 also make me really uncomfortable for some reason.

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## Rynjin

Part 4 is hands down the best part of the series, so I'd suggest pushing back whatever lizard brain reaction you're having lol.

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## Traab

Full Metal Alchemist maybe? I mean, the problem is, you are generally talking about shonen battle manga where power creep is basically the entire point. Its like being upset about reading the heroes journey stories where the mentor dies. Sure it doesnt happen EVERY time, but its a staple of the genre. Unassuming child who gets swept up in an adventure beyond their control, learns they have special gift(s) loses the old man who taught him about them, eventually becomes king of all elbonia after defeating the dark lord. In shonen the general pathway is weakling struggles to survive in their setting but has unbreakable determination. Slowly unlocks greater strength against progressively harder opponents until he is the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be.

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## Prime32

> Just once, I'd like to see a series where the bad guy of each arc is about as strong as the previous villain, just with different types of power so that instead of every solution being "You must unlock more true potential, hero", the good guys basically have to think up new and creative ways to use their individual abilities each time.


Slayers has some of the demon lords who power attack spells dying off, powerful magic items getting lost or destroyed, and the protagonist abandoning her strongest attack spell after learning that it can end the world if miscast. So the protagonists actually get weaker over time.

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## McNum

We get video signal, new episode is up!

*Spoiler: This Time*
Show

I don't know these character, but I agree with Boomstick. I, too, wanted Deku to take it. Ah well.


*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

It's Vegeta and Goku vs. Goku and Vegeta, only fused! Vegito versus Gogeta!

Oh dear. That's a nerd fight and a half. And they both got Blue in Super and Super: Broly, so that can't be the deciding factor. I'm gonna lean Gogeta because hr kinda broke reality by punching while fighting Broly. But Vegito has Fused Zamasu to compare to, not really sure who outputs more tons of TNT between Zamasu and Broly at their peaks.

It's an interesting matchup because the Potara fusion should be stronger, yes, but the Goku and Vegeta that formed Gogeta in Broly were stronger than the ones forming Vegito. So, better fusion vs. better fusion materials.

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## Rater202

*Spoiler: next time*
Show

It boils does to if they set them both as being made from the same Goku and Vegeta or if they go solely by demonstrated feats.

Patora is a much more potent means of fusion than the Metamoran Dance so if Goku and Vegeta are taken from the same period for both fusions Vegito's got it hands down.

On the other hand, if they take Vegito and Gogeta from their strongest showings, then the fact that Goku and Vegeta were *much* stronger in Broly due to extra years of training in the Time Chamber and being repeatedly pushed to their limits in the Tournament of Power.

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## Traab

*Spoiler: this time*
Show

Im not sure I buy their justification for light speed. The event they described suggests he got lucky and rolled out of the way of an attack he wasnt even aware of, not that he knew a light speed attack was incoming then subconsciously dodged it. But I dont know that series so I cant really confirm if thats the case or if its like ranma and his sleep-fu where he can defend himself from just about anything while sleeping. Also, I feel like one big aspect that gets overlooked sometimes in these "who does something with the most tnt" fights is, what durability have they demonstrated.  I mean, its fine that deku did a 7th as much damage as asta, I cant argue that kind of math, but have either of them shown the ability to tank direct hits of their opponents best feats? They mention deku getting hurt but they dont really cover how much damage it takes TO hurt him at his end game level of power.

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## Rynjin

> *Spoiler: this time*
> Show
> 
> Im not sure I buy their justification for light speed. The event they described suggests he got lucky and rolled out of the way of an attack he wasnt even aware of, not that he knew a light speed attack was incoming then subconsciously dodged it. But I dont know that series so I cant really confirm if thats the case or if its like ranma and his sleep-fu where he can defend himself from just about anything while sleeping. Also, I feel like one big aspect that gets overlooked sometimes in these "who does something with the most tnt" fights is, what durability have they demonstrated.  I mean, its fine that deku did a 7th as much damage as asta, I cant argue that kind of math, but have either of them shown the ability to tank direct hits of their opponents best feats? They mention deku getting hurt but they dont really cover how much damage it takes TO hurt him at his end game level of power.


It wasn't luck, his mentor character actually coached him to sense incoming attacks during the fight , and he started dodging the light beams once they came close enough for him to sense them.

As for durability, Asta has tanked a continent buster, albeit arguably in part by blunting its damage with antimagic first. Deku regularly gets his **** rocked by nitroglycerin explosions.

I actually thought Deku might have won the attack power matchup, if barely. But he was always going to lose the durability check.

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## ArlEammon

I hope Death battle eventually does Darth Sidious vs Doctor Doom.

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## TeChameleon

> I hope Death battle eventually does Darth Sidious vs Doctor Doom.


Eh... *hand waggle*

Even if they scale Sidious to ridiculous things like Starkiller yanking Star Destroyers out of orbit or that... group of Jedi students, I think it was... that yeeted a group of starships clean out of their star system, I'm pretty sure that Doom's feats scale wildly beyond that, even without any of the various weird powerups he's gathered over the years and may or may not still have.

As for this time... yeh, poor Deku.  Dunno about the damage scaling so much, but the durability thing was always his weakest point- My Hero Academia characters just don't tend to be as invincible as a lot of super-types, whether western comicbook or manga.

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## awa

> Eh... *hand waggle*
> 
> Even if they scale Sidious to ridiculous things like Starkiller yanking Star Destroyers out of orbit or that... group of Jedi students, I think it was... that yeeted a group of starships clean out of their star system, I'm pretty sure that Doom's feats scale wildly beyond that, even without any of the various weird powerups he's gathered over the years and may or may not still have.
> 
> As for this time... yeh, poor Deku.  Dunno about the damage scaling so much, but the durability thing was always his weakest point- My Hero Academia characters just don't tend to be as invincible as a lot of super-types, whether western comicbook or manga.


Most of the time when doom does something truly absurd he is drawing on some extra power source, while individual force users have some pretty impressive feats such as attacking that fleet of ships in the final star wars trilogy.

So I suspect a sidious vs doom fight would be a very dodgy one depending on which power-ups doom happens to have today and which combined characters feats sidious has, along with the all powerful whose authors understands physics the least.

power growth in black clover just exceeds that of My Hero Academia every foe is experimentally stronger than the last requiring continuous growth for the heroes.

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## DaedalusMkV

> Eh... *hand waggle*
> 
> Even if they scale Sidious to ridiculous things like Starkiller yanking Star Destroyers out of orbit or that... group of Jedi students, I think it was... that yeeted a group of starships clean out of their star system, I'm pretty sure that Doom's feats scale wildly beyond that, even without any of the various weird powerups he's gathered over the years and may or may not still have.
> 
> As for this time... yeh, poor Deku.  Dunno about the damage scaling so much, but the durability thing was always his weakest point- My Hero Academia characters just don't tend to be as invincible as a lot of super-types, whether western comicbook or manga.


If the original Star Wars EU is in play... You don't scale Sidious to other characters. Other characters scale to Sidious. His feats include mind-controlling people from interstellar distances, using his Force Ghost to possess clone bodies to essentially make himself immortal, reasonably accurate precognition on the scale of decades (only reason he isn't completely unstoppable is that his visions don't work super well on other Force users), and the ability to destroy planets and wipe entire fleets of starships out of existence single-handedly using Force Storms that cover entire solar systems. With Dark Empire in play, it's not... Really clear what he needed a Death Star for in the first place, aside perhaps for the ability to delegate single-handedly crushing galaxy-scale political institutions rather than using his Force powers.

I'm not sure if they would stick to Disney Canon or digging into the older EU, but... Well, to put it simply, EU Sidious is one of the few characters I'd be comfortable putting into a fight with a high-end DC or Marvel character, in no small part because all his dumbest feats are also the result of comic book writers. 

... Also, both are capable of cheating death, Sidious with Force Ghost clone possession and Doom with his trademark Doombots. I'd back the fight happening if only for the inevitable three or four fakeout killing blows as things escalate.

*Sidious hits Doom with Force Lightning until he melts into a glowing puddle. Another Doom emerges from the shadows.* "Did you really think that was Doom? Doom is not impressed."
*Doom blasts Sidious with some sort of energy beam. Sidious vanishes, and another Sidious steps out from behind a curtain.* "Did you enjoy playing with that projection, Doctor? You have not seen a half measure of the true power of the Dark Side."

And so on and so forth until you eventually decide to have one of them blow up the planet, winning the fight. They could both probably do it, and you could justify that as a win against either depending on the scenario you concoct. They're both specialists in the fields of 'Nuh-uh', 'All according to plan' and the ever classic 'Pulling new abilities out of my hat as the plot demands', after all.

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## Delicious Taffy

> As for durability, Asta has tanked a continent buster, albeit arguably in part by blunting its damage with antimagic first.


Was that a different attack from the Big One they showed off? Cuz they said that one was "about half the [size] of Great Britain", which is hardly a continent.

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## Iamyourking

*Spoiler: This Time*
Show

Vegito wins by a very slight margin.


*Spoiler: Next Year*
Show

Bill Cipher vs Discord and Alex Mercer vs. Cole McGrath. Frankly I'm just glad Kratos vs Asura didn't win that poll.

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## Seppl

*Spoiler: This time*
Show

The matchup felt rather uninspired. Pitching two characters from the same franchise against each other does not play to Death Battle's strengths. Especially if all battles in said franchise are solely decided by comparing two numbers, which is also what DB chose to roll with. Thus, we got introduced to lots of meaningless attacks and skills, which all counted for nothing, because Vegito had the slightly bigger number. No feats nor skills compared, no calculations on crazy outlier feats, no strategy, just some math that A + B > 2 * min(A, B).

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## Traab

> *Spoiler: This time*
> Show
> 
> The matchup felt rather uninspired. Pitching two characters from the same franchise against each other does not play to Death Battle's strengths. Especially if all battles in said franchise are solely decided by comparing two numbers, which is also what DB chose to roll with. Thus, we got introduced to lots of meaningless attacks and skills, which all counted for nothing, because Vegito had the slightly bigger number. No feats nor skills compared, no calculations on crazy outlier feats, no strategy, just some math that A + B > 2 * min(A, B).


Too be fair, *Spoiler*
Show

You couldnt really make any meaningful comparisons between skill levels. Its still goku and vegeta, and both had powers and feats that were basically "rocks fall, everyone dies" level of nonsense with dimensional wall shattering and double god punching. Dragonball doesnt really lend itself well to measuring relative damage levels past a certain point because we dont actually have numbers that can represent "the multiverse explodes then implodes" so its rarely clear who is stronger when both sides are capable of feats on par with everything goes boom. And they did cover things like personalities but pointed out that they couldnt really say either was truly that different as both behaved differently in different battles. So really, all it COULD come down to is, between two near equals, who has a longer duration on their full power, and who has even a smidge more power?

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## TeChameleon

Eh, nifty animation and solid voice acting, no real complaints here.

*Spoiler: Next time:*
Show

Don't really care about the videogame boys, but Discord vs Bill Cypher?  My prediction is that Bill will take it- Discord has been consistently nerfed since becoming a deuteragonist on the good guys' side.

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## Forum Explorer

> *Spoiler: This time*
> Show
> 
> The matchup felt rather uninspired. Pitching two characters from the same franchise against each other does not play to Death Battle's strengths. Especially if all battles in said franchise are solely decided by comparing two numbers, which is also what DB chose to roll with. Thus, we got introduced to lots of meaningless attacks and skills, which all counted for nothing, because Vegito had the slightly bigger number. No feats nor skills compared, no calculations on crazy outlier feats, no strategy, just some math that A + B > 2 * min(A, B).


*Spoiler: This time*
Show

Agreed. It seems like a waste of a match up. It'd be like if they did Bilbo vs Frodo.





> Eh, nifty animation and solid voice acting, no real complaints here.
> 
> *Spoiler: Next time:*
> Show
> 
> Don't really care about the videogame boys, but Discord vs Bill Cypher?  My prediction is that Bill will take it- Discord has been consistently nerfed since becoming a deuteragonist on the good guys' side.


*Spoiler: Next Time*
Show

Mostly agree. I don't think Discord ever actually beats anyone with his powers. Mind you, Bill went down like a chump too. A pretty basic twin swap was enough to trick him and Bill's reality warping seems a lot weaker than Discord's.

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## awa

> Eh, nifty animation and solid voice acting, no real complaints here.
> 
> *Spoiler: Next time:*
> Show
> 
> Don't really care about the videogame boys, but Discord vs Bill Cypher?  My prediction is that Bill will take it- Discord has been consistently nerfed since becoming a deuteragonist on the good guys' side.


Remember that death battle is real big on outlier feats and transitive feats so being nerfed typically doesn't matter because they are only looking at their biggest victories.

*Spoiler: next time*
Show

I'm not that familiar with discord but I'm pretty sure his series is longer running thus giving him more opportunities to do things/ be compared to other people doing things

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## Talakeal

Funny story, at dinner last night I said to one of my gaming buddies that the next Death Battle looks really interesting and involves characters we know, and he guessed Mr. Myxltpytl vs. It. I said he was surprisingly close (reality warping trickster vs. cute projection of an eldritch evil) but he fixated on different traits and is now convinced that the next episode will be Elmer Fudd vs. The Joker :)

Honestly, that's a pretty good metaphor for how "puzzles" always go in my gaming sessions.




> Remember that death battle is real big on outlier feats and transitive feats so being nerfed typically doesn't matter because they are only looking at their biggest victories.[/SPOILER]


Very much this.

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## SKarious

At last, the next battles will be more interesting than shouty anime boys. I've been hoping for those battles quite a lot.

*Spoiler: Discord Vs. Bill*
Show


This might be a lot closer than we think. 
Bill's power, when masnifested physically, is not negligable: size changes, petrification, piercing vision, summoning minions, and creating imaginary worlds are easy to him.
And bill is pretty good in a fight: he held his own against the anti-magic powered shack, and shook off a deadly shot from a weapon designed to destroy him.
Bill is also pretty cunning. It takes him a while to understand new opponents, but he can trick them easily if he finds their weak spot.
Discord has already been tricked several times, and if Bill figures out his weak point (Fluttershy) - he's done for. Discord will walk into an obvious trap to protect her.



*Spoiler: Cole vs. Alex*
Show


I have plenty to write about here, but I'll wait for a bit. Let's hope it doesn't come down to a lingerie battle.

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## McNum

> At last, the next battles will be more interesting than shouty anime boys. I've been hoping for those battles quite a lot.
> 
> *Spoiler: Discord Vs. Bill*
> Show
> 
> 
> This might be a lot closer than we think. 
> Bill's power, when masnifested physically, is not negligable: size changes, petrification, piercing vision, summoning minions, and creating imaginary worlds are easy to him.
> And bill is pretty good in a fight: he held his own against the anti-magic powered shack, and shook off a deadly shot from a weapon designed to destroy him.
> ...


About Fluttershy being a weakness for Discord. I am unsure. Discord is a trickster, he is very powerful, but does things because they're funny. His greatest weakness is that he doesn't take the situation seriously until it's too late. But if someone were to harm Fluttershy... then things change. And I'd almost feel sorry for whoever just earned themselves all of Discord's wrath. Except I won't. Because they hurt Fluttershy.

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## Forum Explorer

> About Fluttershy being a weakness for Discord. I am unsure. Discord is a trickster, he is very powerful, but does things because they're funny. His greatest weakness is that he doesn't take the situation seriously until it's too late. But if someone were to harm Fluttershy... then things change. And I'd almost feel sorry for whoever just earned themselves all of Discord's wrath. Except I won't. Because they hurt Fluttershy.


*Spoiler: Obligatory pony comic with no context*
Show

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## Iamyourking

They announced a third episode for next season at MAGFest:
*Spoiler*
Show

The Chosen Undead vs. The Dovahkiin. No idea how that's going to work, given that neither one has a canonical skillset.

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## Seppl

> They announced a third episode for next season at MAGFest:
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> The Chosen Undead vs. The Dovahkiin. No idea how that's going to work, given that neither one has a canonical skillset.


*Spoiler*
Show

Probably one of or both:
a) A level infinite character that has leveled all skills and attributes to the max and has all items available. Which, incidentally is possible in both games if you just play long enough.
b) Comparing the challenges that they have overcome.

There is precedent for both.

My money would be on The Dovahkiin. Using a, they are very similar, with an edge in strength and weapons for TCU and an edge in magic for TD, but I cannot think of any massive differences. Also no trump card techniques that just win or counter everything, except maybe Chim for TD if they really want to go down that rabbit hole. Using b, the challenges of TCU sound much more impressive on paper but the whole point of the story is that the gods and legendary beasts that TCU defeats are way past their prime and have become so weak that their world order must be renewed (or replaced) by a new power. Whereas TD may mostly content with vampires, liches and lesser dragons, but all of those are as strong as they can get. I bet Kalameet from Dark Souls would have massive trouble against most of the bigger dragons from Skyrim.

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## GloatingSwine

*Spoiler*
Show

Seems like a bad plan having a death battle where one of the participants is metaphysically incapable of dying and the other isn't...

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## Rynjin

Good thing they're BOTH metaphysically incapable of dying. Dragonborn have two potential immortality methods.

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## DaedalusMkV

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Seems like a bad plan having a death battle where one of the participants is metaphysically incapable of dying and the other isn't...


*Spoiler: Spoling speculation for an upcoming battle? Okay*
Show


Nah, they're both immortal for as long as they choose to be. Dovahkiin has CHIM canonically, which is weird and metaphysical but functionally works as the ability to save and load games. He can riffle between realities, trying out different possibilities, until he gets one he likes. Retconning his own death is well within the bounds of CHIM. 

Both are immortal until they give up. Chosen Undead will respawn forever until they Hollow... At which point they will continue to respawn forever, just as a mindless husk. Dovahkiin will, from the perspective of the Chosen Undead, never lose or die, but from his own perspective may need to die any number of times while searching for an outcome he or she is willing to accept.

From the Chosen Undead's perspective, it all looks like a normal Dark Souls boss. You might need to try again a lot of times, but functionally you're retrying a battle against the same guy over and over until you win because you only see the final iteration of reality. From Dovahkiin's perspective... It's some weird glitchy NPC who will never leave you alone no matter how many times you kill it and occasionally switches tactics and learns from its mistakes until you give up and reset the game or something.

Personally, I give the edge to the Chosen Undead. Dark Souls is all about challenging adversity in a way Elder Scrolls is not, so I'd imagine the Dovahkiin gives up and plays another game for a while long before the Dark Souls guy stops smashing his head against the wall.

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