# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  Stars Druid: Squishy? and how to build one to mitigate it?

## 5eNeedsDarksun

Hi Forum,

I was looking at Stars Druid for an upcoming campaign.  They seem flavorful and versatile in combat (particularly after level 10), and overall a good class.  One shortcoming that I'm seeing is that they seem pretty squishy.  Druids as a class, with middle of the road hp, questionable armor (sometimes DM dependent), and lack of spells/ abilities to mitigate damage are near the bottom end to start with.  The subclass doesn't provide a lot either.  I mean chalice is available, but until 10th I can't imagine this is a go-to option in combat.  The 6th level ability I guess has a 50/50 chance of providing some defense on a given day, but even that has limited uses and dice need to be applied before the roll.

Anyway, I'm just interested in what others experiences have been and what would be good builds/ playstyles to ensure survival.  My first thought as I looked through the race options was Wildhunt Shifter.  The ability bonusses are bang on (we don't use floating modifiers) and the temp hp from shifting is going to add up over a typical day.  Beyond that the Dragon form opens up Feats/ ASI options compared to my usual: Res (Con), but not sure where to go from there.

Thanks in advance.

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## RogueJK

Stars Druids make for fantastic ranged casters, and in that light are stouter than most other ranged casters, thanks to their d8 hit dice and ability to wear at least some medium armor and use a shield, compared to the non-Cleric other full casters who only get Light Armor at most.  (Even if you just stick to Light Armor and a good DEX, the extra +2 AC from a shield makes a noticeable difference.)

They have a built-in access to a solid BA ranged attacks via Archer Form.  So your go-to combat option can be Cantrip+BA Archer Form from range, supplemented by Concentration control/debuff/hazard/summoning spells.  Plus you get a number of free Guiding Bolts per day, for turns when you want to do more ranged damage than just a cantrip with your Action.  And you can make use of spells like Moonbeam and Call Lighting that require recurring use of your Action to inflict higher damage during your turns, and still have your Bonus Action free for Archer Form.  All together, that's solid ranged damage output options.

This route gets boosted even further if you go with a race like Astral Elf or Kobold that gets access to a better WIS-based ranged attack cantrip than the Druids normally get.  The Druid class ranged cantrip selection is rather lackluster, being either shorter range, a frequently resisted damage type, or targeting CON that's typically a strong enemy save.  But grabbing something like a racial Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead, or Chill Touch to use as your primary WIS-based attack cantrip gives your resourceless ranged damage options a nice boost.  You could even do VHuman/CLineage with the Magic Initiate Cleric feat to grab this.

From there, you have access to other defensive stuff like your 6th level ability to potentially add to your saves or detract from enemies' attacks, access to emergency bonus HP and escape options from Wild Shape and Polymorph, and defensive spells like Absorb Elements, Guardian of Nature, and Fire Shield.  Plus the ability to summon meat shields via spells like Conjure Animals, Giant Insect, or Summon Beast/Construct/Fey.

They're not as hardy as a Paladin or Bladesinger, but they're far from squishy, provided you're not trying to routinely wade into melee combat.  Play to your strengths.  Stars Druids are by far the best subclass option for a caster Druid who hangs back and kills/controls things from range.



If you want a ranged Stars Druid that has even more battlefield control at the cost of delaying your Druid abilities, a three level dip into Swarmkeeper Ranger gives you a shove effect that triggers on successful attacks (either a ranged attack cantrip or your BA archer form attack).  Sort of like a Warlock with Repelling Blast.  Handy for triggering further damage ticks from Druid hazard spells like Create Bonfire, Spike Growth, Moonbeam, and Wall of Fire.  See my writeup of that build here:  https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...postcount=1437

You could get a smaller similar effect by dipping just 1 level into Dao Genielock for added Bludgeoning damage to your ranged attacks and then taking the Crusher feat.  But that's just a 5' shove vs. Swarmkeeper's potential 15', and Swarmkeeper's effect doesn't have a size limit like Crusher does.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Stars Druids make for fantastic ranged casters, and in that light are stouter than most other ranged casters, thanks to their d8 hit dice and ability to wear at least some medium armor and use a shield, compared to the non-Cleric other full casters who only get Light Armor at most.  (Even if you just stick to Light Armor and a good DEX, the extra +2 AC from a shield makes a noticeable difference.)
> 
> They have a built-in access to a solid BA ranged attacks via Archer Form.  So your go-to combat option can be Cantrip+BA Archer Form from range, supplemented by Concentration control/debuff/hazard/summoning spells.  Plus you get a number of free Guiding Bolts per day, for turns when you want to do more ranged damage than just a cantrip with your Action.  And you can make use of spells like Moonbeam and Call Lighting that require recurring use of your Action to inflict higher damage during your turns, and still have your Bonus Action free for Archer Form.  All together, that's solid ranged damage output options.
> 
> This route gets boosted even further if you go with a race like Astral Elf or Kobold that gets access to a better WIS-based ranged attack cantrip than the Druids normally get.  The Druid class ranged cantrip selection is rather lackluster, being either shorter range, a frequently resisted damage type, or targeting CON that's typically a strong enemy save.  But grabbing something like a racial Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead, or Chill Touch to use as your primary WIS-based attack cantrip gives your resourceless ranged damage options a nice boost.  You could even do VHuman/CLineage with the Magic Initiate Cleric feat to grab this.
> 
> From there, you have access to other defensive stuff like your 6th level ability to potentially add to your saves or detract from enemies' attacks, access to emergency bonus HP and escape options from Wild Shape and Polymorph, and defensive spells like Absorb Elements, Guardian of Nature, and Fire Shield.  Plus the ability to summon meat shields via spells like Conjure Animals, Giant Insect, or Summon Beast/Construct/Fey.
> 
> They're not as hardy as a Paladin or Bladesinger, but they're far from squishy, provided you're not trying to routinely wade into melee combat.  Play to your strengths.  Stars Druids are by far the best subclass option for a caster Druid who hangs back and kills/controls things from range.
> ...


I think your point about leaning into strengths is a good one.  We haven't had primarily caster druids at our table with the exception of a Shepherd that was such a beast that I don't ever want to see one again.  So my perception is somewhat based on seeing a couple of Moons as a point of comparison.  Perhaps the Stars isn't as squishy as I originally thought, and I'd be better off doing as you suggest: lean into what it's good at rather than trying to shore up a weakness.
That still presents a bit of a puzzle though, since the 3 forms provide different playstyles and seem to evolve over time.  It seems like early play will be primarily Archer, then evolve to Dragon.  By level 10 you can still be primary Dragon but swap around; I can see Chalice coming up whenever another character drops.

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## strangebloke

If you ever feel that you're lacking resilience, there are a good number of races now that offer a LOT of defensive power. You've already mentioned the wildhunt shifter, but Goliaths bear mentioning as well. For druids specifically there's the Loxodont, which can get you to 18 AC with a shield pretty easily if you want, while giving you a reason to boost CON. Tortles are arguably better for this purpose though.

Druid's main problem is AC, and there are plenty of ways of boosting that via magic items or racial features.

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## RogueJK

> So my perception is somewhat based on seeing a couple of Moons as a point of comparison.


Yeah... Moon Druids are the exception to the usual Druid playstyle, not the norm.

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## Dungeon-noob

As for defense for druids, i also want to caution you not to only look at AC and HP as the totality of a class' defensive ability. You're talking about a druid, the king of control spellcasting. It doesn't matter if that giant can knock off half your HP in one hit, if a single Plant Growth means he never reaches you. And those archers can eat an Entangle, or a Fog cloud, or try to get past a Warding wind. The druid spell list if chock full of spells that shut down offensive options. Using those intelligently will help a lot, even if it's not in a HP/AC comparison chart.

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## Oramac

> They have a built-in access to a solid BA ranged attacks via Archer Form.  So your go-to combat option can be Cantrip+BA Archer Form from range, supplemented by Concentration control/debuff/hazard/summoning spells.  Plus you get a number of free Guiding Bolts per day, for turns when you want to do more ranged damage than just a cantrip with your Action.  And you can make use of spells like Moonbeam and Call Lighting that require recurring use of your Action to inflict higher damage during your turns, and still have your Bonus Action free for Archer Form.  All together, that's solid ranged damage output options.


It's worth pointing out that while Archer form uses a ranged spell attack, it is not itself a spell. I've made this case with a couple DMs and been able to cast Guiding Bolt and use Archer form on the same turn. Ask your DM, but it might be worth it.

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## RogueJK

> It's worth pointing out that while Archer form uses a ranged spell attack, it is not itself a spell. I've made this case with a couple DMs and been able to cast Guiding Bolt and use Archer form on the same turn. Ask your DM, but it might be worth it.


Yep.  Archer Form is not a spell.  So you can use your Action to cast whatever you want.  This is what lets you get your big Concentration spell off while also using your BA to active Archer Form (and make your first attack) all in Round 1, and then settle back into your Cantrip/Guiding Bolt + Archer Form routine from Round 2+.

It shouldn't require a lenient DM... That's RAW.

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## animorte

> Stars Druids make for fantastic ranged casters medium armor and use a shield
> 
> So your go-to combat option can be Cantrip+BA Archer Form from range, supplemented by Concentration control/debuff/hazard/summoning spells
> 
> Play to your strengths.  Stars Druids are by far the best subclass option for a caster Druid who hangs back and kills/controls things from range.
> 
> If you want a ranged Stars Druid that has even more battlefield control at the cost of delaying your Druid abilities, a three level dip into Swarmkeeper Ranger gives you a shove effect that triggers on successful attacks (either a ranged attack cantrip or your BA archer form attack).


So very nicely put together. Theres no point in me repeating it.

This is exactly what my Stars Druid looks like, except its a Ghostwise Halfling (I like Halflings). High Dex, High Wis, Good Con, never really had any problems.

Ive also tried Stars Druid 2/Swarmkeeper Ranger X in a shorter campaign (started at higher levels) and that was equally effective overall.

_I may or may not have have combined each of those with Monk at some point._  :Small Cool: 



> It shouldn't require a lenient DM... That's RAW.


Can confirm.

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## Oramac

> Yep.  Archer Form is not a spell.  So you can use your Action to cast whatever you want.  This is what lets you get your big Concentration spell off while also using your BA to active Archer Form (and make your first attack) all in Round 1, and then settle back into your Cantrip/Guiding Bolt + Archer Form routine from Round 2+.
> 
> It shouldn't require a lenient DM... That's RAW.


Eh. I had a DM once decline it saying the ranged spell attack was RAI as a spell. It was an open table, so I didn't push the issue. Still kicked ass. Just had to change my tactics a bit.

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## RogueJK

> Ive also tried Stars Druid 2/Swarmkeeper Ranger X in a shorter campaign (started at higher levels) and that was equally effective overall.


Yep.  2 levels of Stars Druid is a nice dip on a number of characters.




> _I may or may not have have combined each of those with Monk at some point._


Stars Druid 2/Astral Self Monk X is a nifty nontraditional combo that lets you be WIS-SAD and effective both in melee and ranged.

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## Petelo4f

I mean, easy way to add some tankyness to your Druid is to take a single level of Divine Soul Sorcerer, it'll give you Shield and Silvery Barbs as well as the Favored by the Gods feature.  You already have absorb elements but adding shield and silvery barbs will really allow you to mitigate incoming damage and Favored by the Gods will allow you to more readily succeed on saving throws.  Further Spiked Armor exists if you need some better Medium armor that isn't necessarily made of metal.

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## sambojin

Even though Stars likes reserving their wildshapes for constellation effects, just remember that you do have little wildshape as well. A wolf/ elk/ velociraptor at lvl2 is pretty good, and jaculi/ warhorse at  lvl4 is great. Kite/ shoot/ charge/ repeat.

It's still +10-19HP, and can be stacked with Archer for some pretty credible combat forms. You can wildshape and use Archer (and shoot) and move on your first turn of combat, so it doesn't feel like a waste of an opening. And if you lose your HP? Who cares, wildshape is essentially free, and now you're a very good control caster/ blaster instead 

Sure, it blows both wildshape uses, but it also saves a tonne of spell slots. If you can wildshape away an encounter or two a day, you'll feel pretty tanky. It also helps mix it up a bit, so you've always got fun stuff to try. Mitigate damage by killing stuff quicker, and saving your spell slots. Or just doing it because you can.

Also, while it takes concentration, never forget Summon Beast. A land beast is surprisingly tanky and has pretty good damage output and a climb speed, while the Air beast has flyby attacks. Something like a summoned land beast, that you ride around on as a Velociraptor (free pack tactics for both of you), with Archer going, is pretty terrifying. That's 4 attacks at lvl3. Not a heap of HP, but you'll blender things down quickly enough not to care. Any tiny form can also ride an Air beast, so while the damage output might not be great, you can be an aerial spider Archer if you want. The Land beast can also be a monkey, so it riding around on you as a medium sized or larger wildshape is doable as well. Most Druids should have a saddle pretty early on in their career, preferably a magic one, so it resizes. Try and nudge your DM into letting you get one.
(Even without cavalry shenanigans, Summoned Beasts are still pretty good. An extra body on the field never hurts, and it's one that's equivalent to extra attack alongside some tactical options).

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Even though Stars likes reserving their wildshapes for constellation effects, just remember that you do have little wildshape as well. An wolf/ elk/ velociraptor at lvl2 is pretty good, and jaculi/ warhorse at  lvl4 is great. Kite/ shoot/ charge/ repeat.
> 
> It's still +10-19HP, and can be stacked with Archer for some pretty credible combat forms. You can wildshape and use Archer (and shoot) and move on your first turn of combat, so it doesn't feel like a waste of an opening. And if you lose your HP? Who cares, wildshape is essentially free, and now you're a very good control caster/ blaster instead 
> 
> Sure, it blows both wildshape uses, but it also saves a tonne of spell slots. If you can wildshape away an encounter or two a day, you'll feel pretty tanky. It also helps mix it up a bit, so you've always got fun stuff to try. Mitigate damage by killing stuff quicker, and saving your spell slots. Or just doing it because you can.
> 
> Also, while it takes concentration, never forget Summon Beast. A land beast is surprisingly tanky and has pretty good damage output and a climb speed, while the Air beast has flyby attacks. Something like a summoned land beast, that you ride around on as a Velociraptor (free pack tactics for both of you), with Archer going, is pretty terrifying. That's 4 attacks at lvl3. Not a heap of HP, but you'll blender things down quickly enough not to care. Any tiny form can also ride an Air beast, so while the damage output might not be great, you can be an aerial spider Archer if you want. The Land beast can also be a monkey, so it riding around on you as a medium sized or larger wildshape is doable as well. Most Druids should have a saddle pretty early on in their career, preferably a magic one, so it resizes. Try and nudge your DM into letting you get one.
> (Even without cavalry shenanigans, Summoned Beasts are still pretty good. An extra body on the field never hurts, and it's one that's equivalent to extra attack alongside some tactical options).


The 2 stacking Wildshapes is an interesting option, and one I hadn't considered.  Would I use it?  Maybe.  We do tend to have a fair few encounters so it'd be a bit niche, but more options are always good.  The 10 min limit on Stars forms is on the low end, though traditional wildshape is obviously a lot longer.  In theory the one use of Wildshape could last longer than a 2nd Stars form, but I'd think in most cases you'd get knocked out of wildshape fairly quickly.  If swimming or flying was required this would definitely be good.

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## Omni-Centrist

1st step: Play the gith race that gives access to the Shield Spell, it's super useful for spellcaster that don't get it. Will save your life. 

2nd step: one level in monk. This is purely to bump your AC to decent levels without the need of magic items and armor. Point Buy, you could start with 16 AC that you can easily get bumped to 21 via shield spell. This will only get better as you acquire magic items and increase your WIS.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> 1st step: Play the gith race that gives access to the Shield Spell, it's super useful for spellcaster that don't get it. Will save your life. 
> 
> 2nd step: one level in monk. This is purely to bump your AC to decent levels without the need of magic items and armor. Point Buy, you could start with 16 AC that you can easily get bumped to 21 via shield spell. This will only get better as you acquire magic items and increase your WIS.


If I'm reading it right the Shield by gith race is an extra casting per long rest (good thing) but doesn't get added to your list (not good thing).  The Wis bonus puts gith in contention, but I'm not sure 1 shield spell per day compensates for +1 Dex and roughly 40 temp hp vs. Wildhunt Shifter.  Maybe if someone else was dishing out some temp hp.

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## sambojin

If you want another bonus action-use defensive ability, old-Firbolg's bonus-invis-pop isn't bad. 1/sr, and is essentially taking the dodge action as a bonus, plus you're invisible. For whatever that's worth. Move afterwards and see what your DM runs it as.

At worst, Disadvantage to enemy attacks, after you've done your stuff, is nice. Also works in wildshape+Archer forms, but you can't Archer that turn. But Archer is so strong early-on as a Stars Druid (mitigate damage by giving things the "dead" status, as a bonus action), that you'll have to feel like you really f'd up to pop invis. Firbolgs do come with a kitchen list of other stuff too though. And it's sorta like a "different" constellation, the "invisible for a turn" one. The moon, and the stars, and the sun...

(Also, remember. Wildshape (beast forms or find familiar) lasting ages is on the high end of "probably broken". Having a 10min long, 2/sr, bonus-action-attack "not-spell" from Archer isn't on the "low end" for a druid or any other class. It's still really good)

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## Omni-Centrist

> If I'm reading it right the Shield by gith race is an extra casting per long rest (good thing) but doesn't get added to your list (not good thing).  The Wis bonus puts gith in contention, but I'm not sure 1 shield spell per day compensates for +1 Dex and roughly 40 temp hp vs. Wildhunt Shifter.  Maybe if someone else was dishing out some temp hp.


I believe the Monsters of the Multiverse version does allow you to cast it with any spell slots!

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## RogueJK

> If swimming or flying was required this would definitely be good.


Yep.  For non-Moon Druids, Wild Shape is more of an exploration tool than a combat tool.

But you can still use it as an emergency "temp HP" option if you get cornered in combat and are in danger of doing unconscious.




> I believe the Monsters of the Multiverse version does allow you to cast it with any spell slots!


Correct.  It specifically states that in the description of the MotM Githzerai race:

_"Starting at 3rd level, you can cast the shield spell with this trait. Starting at 5th level, you can also cast the detect thoughts spell with it. Once you cast shield or detect thoughts with this trait, you cant cast that spell with it again until you finish a long rest. You can also cast either of those spells using any spell slots you have of the appropriate level."_

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## da newt

The best defense for a star druid is range - tactical positioning is your friend, kite, take cover, etc

Flight is another great way to mitigate damage - it doesn't work against all attack types, but it nullifies quite a few.

Goblin is another decent race option as the BA hide/disengage can be very handy (although you have plenty to do w/ your BA already).

Star Druids aren't squishy unless they are foolish enough to jump into melee.

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## The ShadowVerse

> Star Druids aren't squishy unless they are foolish enough to jump into melee.


Suuuuuure, but you could say the same of wizards and sorcerers. Like clerics, druids are tanks-by-necessity, unless they're specifically designed to frontline (see hit die and armor proficiencies). There are squishy and non-squishy variants of druids, but I'd argue doesn't depend on where they're standing.

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## animorte

> Suuuuuure, but you could say the same of wizards and sorcerers. Like clerics, druids are tanks-by-necessity, unless they're specifically designed to frontline (see hit die and armor proficiencies). There are squishy and non-squishy variants of druids, but I'd argue doesn't depend on where they're standing.


I strongly agree with you and strongly disagree with you.

There certainly are some built to be more durable in melee, and higher defensive capabilities, but positioning absolutely can also make a big difference.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Yep.  2 levels of Stars Druid is a nice dip on a number of characters.
> 
> 
> 
> Stars Druid 2/Astral Self Monk X is a nifty nontraditional combo that lets you be WIS-SAD and effective both in melee and ranged.


Funny you mentioned the dip.  My current character, a reskinned Death Cleric, is potentially a candidate for this, so I was trying to figure out if it was worth doing. Some analysis:
I'm currently going into 4th level and had planned on taking Res Con, but probably would get a different 1/2 Con feat if I want to go that route.  Part of that is due to having a reliable bonus action attack with Spiritual Weapon (which I can paste my CD damage to), so probably leaning into Dragon form for the Con Saves.  I'd definitely stay Cleric until 6th to get 3rd level spells and extra CD, and subclass feature.  This means the 2 level dip would be my 7th and 8th levels.  So I'd be getting the Guiding Bolts at the same time as I would have been getting a bump to my cantrips (we allow the option from Tasha's to take either the Weapon or Cantrip bonus at 8th).  So, the Guiding Bolts are kind of a side grade at best, since I'd only get 3 and the rest of the time damage is less from cantrips.  At worse, it's a downgrade, since I can twin cantrips and I'm then losing 2 dice of damage.  Basically, the main benefit is having nearly unbreakable Concentration saves and freeing up a feat.  Is this worth it for a 2 level dip?

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## RogueJK

Probably not, for a Death Cleric specifically.  You already have Twinned Chill Touch, and can quasi-smite on your BA melee attacks with Spiritual Weapon.  The Concentration boost isn't worth it.

But it could be worth it on a different type of Cleric. Like an Arcana Cleric focused on ranged cantrip attacks, or similar.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Probably not, for a Death Cleric specifically.  You already have Twinned Chill Touch, and can quasi-smite on your BA melee attacks with Spiritual Weapon.  The Concentration boost isn't worth it.
> 
> But it could be worth it on a different type of Cleric. Like an Arcana Cleric focused on ranged cantrip attacks, or similar.


For sure.  My current subclass is competing with 2 features.  Guess I'll just have to play another character... good problem to have.

Though twin Thorn Whip would be pretty good, if a bit situational, with Spirit Guardians.

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## Gignere

> For sure.  My current subclass is competing with 2 features.  Guess I'll just have to play another character... good problem to have.
> 
> Though twin Thorn Whip would be pretty good, if a bit situational, with Spirit Guardians.


How would you twin thorn whip? The death cleric only twins necromancy cantrips I thought.

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## RogueJK

> How would you twin thorn whip? The death cleric only twins necromancy cantrips I thought.


Correct.  No twinned Thorn Whip.  A Death Cleric can only twin Necromancy cantrips, of which there are only 4 in the entire game: Toll the Dead and/or Spare the Dying from the Cleric cantrip list, and either Chill Touch or Sapping Sting as your additional "any class" Necromancy cantrip. 

Here's the text of the Death Domain's ability:

_Reaper
At 1st level, the cleric learns one necromancy cantrip of his or her choice from any spell list. When the cleric casts a necromancy cantrip that normally targets only one creature, the spell can instead target two creatures within range and within 5 feet of each other.
_


Realistically, Toll the Dead and Chill Touch are the only two worthwhile options...  Spare the Dying is a total waste of an action/cantrip choice, and Sapping Sting is short range, low damage, and targets CON which is the most common high save bonus on enemies.  But the good news is that Toll the Dead and Chill Touch are two of the best combat cantrips in the game (especially with the later ability to ignore Necrotic Resistance), and paired together those two cantrips give you well-rounded options for WIS save or attack roll and close or long range and higher damage or useful riders, so it's not necessarily a bad thing that those are the only two realistic options.  :Small Wink:

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## stoutstien

Off topic but thorn is still nice to get for death clerics for a ranged* melee attack for their CD smite. Puts an enemy in quite a pickle when the get yanked closer to the PC that just erased 1/2 thier HP.

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## Gignere

> Off topic but thorn is still nice to get for death clerics for a ranged* melee attack for their CD smite. Puts an enemy in quite a pickle when the get yanked closer to the PC that just erased 1/2 thier HP.


Thorn whip is just plain good for clerics because they can use it to double trigger spirit guardians. Pull enemy outside of SG trigger SG, begin enemy turn trigger SG again. The death cleric smite is the chefs kiss on top.

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## RogueJK

Death Clerics already have several means to land their Touch of Death: martial melee weapon attacks, Inflict Wounds, Spiritual Weapon, and Vampiric Touch.

Adding another melee attack cantrip option could be nice, but is far from a must-have.  You can only use Touch of Death 1x/2x per short rest, and chances are you're going to be regularly utilizing one of the other options throughout the day anyway (with Spiritual Weapon being the most common).

As noted though, Thorn Whip is handy for a Cleric, but a lot of Cleric won't be able to justify the Druid multiclass dip or the ASI spent on the Wood Elf Magic/Magic Initiate Druid feat.  However, if you can afford it, Thorn Whip pairs well with Spirit Guardians, as well as potentially any other hazard spells your subclass adds, like Wall of Fire for a Light/Forge Cleric, Moonbeam for a Twilight Cleric, or Spike Growth for a Nature Cleric.

Nature Clerics are the obviously synergistic route, with access to Thorn Whip at Level 1 without multiclassing or spending a feat, and eventually Spike Growth at Level 3 and Spirit Guardians at Level 5.

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## Samayu

> Hi Forum,
> 
> I was looking at Stars Druid for an upcoming campaign.  They seem flavorful and versatile in combat (particularly after level 10), and overall a good class.  One shortcoming that I'm seeing is that they seem pretty squishy.  Druids as a class, with middle of the road hp, questionable armor (sometimes DM dependent), and lack of spells/ abilities to mitigate damage are near the bottom end to start with.  The subclass doesn't provide a lot either.  I mean chalice is available, but until 10th I can't imagine this is a go-to option in combat.  The 6th level ability I guess has a 50/50 chance of providing some defense on a given day, but even that has limited uses and dice need to be applied before the roll.
> 
> Anyway, I'm just interested in what others experiences have been and what would be good builds/ playstyles to ensure survival.  My first thought as I looked through the race options was Wildhunt Shifter.  The ability bonusses are bang on (we don't use floating modifiers) and the temp hp from shifting is going to add up over a typical day.  Beyond that the Dragon form opens up Feats/ ASI options compared to my usual: Res (Con), but not sure where to go from there.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


We currently have a kobold stars druid on our team. We're up to 5th level and have had one PC death so far. I don't think the druid has ever been down to 0 HP, which is good because he's our primary healer. He is indeed very versatile, and has occasionally joined melee, in both kobold and wildshape form. For most of the time, our party has consisted of druid, archer ranger, warlock, bard and 2 x paladin.

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## sambojin

(^kobolds, new and old, are amazing in melee. Any druid, or in fact, any class. But Druids can just have a familiar on their shoulder, or a Summoned Land Beast beside them/ on their shoulders, to always have pack tactics. Caster form or otherwise)

Another strange thing. Consider climb speeds, either from race or spell. Archer doesn't take hands to use, so you can still ping away while halfway up a wall in caster form.

And probably cast spells too.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> Death Clerics already have several means to land their Touch of Death: martial melee weapon attacks, Inflict Wounds, Spiritual Weapon, and Vampiric Touch.
> 
> Adding another melee attack cantrip option could be nice, but is far from a must-have.  You can only use Touch of Death 1x/2x per short rest, and chances are you're going to be regularly utilizing one of the other options throughout the day anyway (with Spiritual Weapon being the most common).
> 
> As noted though, Thorn Whip is handy for a Cleric, but a lot of Cleric won't be able to justify the Druid multiclass dip or the ASI spent on the Wood Elf Magic/Magic Initiate Druid feat.  However, if you can afford it, Thorn Whip pairs well with Spirit Guardians, as well as potentially any other hazard spells your subclass adds, like Wall of Fire for a Light/Forge Cleric, Moonbeam for a Twilight Cleric, or Spike Growth for a Nature Cleric.
> 
> Nature Clerics are the obviously synergistic route, with access to Thorn Whip at Level 1 without multiclassing or spending a feat, and eventually Spike Growth at Level 3 and Spirit Guardians at Level 5.


I just realized Thorn Whip was a melee attack and would trigger Touch of Death resourceless; that's good, though as you say there are other ways.  My bad on mentioning twinning on that cantrip; clearly that's not the case so not sure what I was thinking.

I was thinking Sapping Sting wasn't bad in combo with Spirit Guardians.  Dropping someone (or 2 someones) prone while their movement is halved really locks them down.
I'm leaning against multi-classing at the moment, so was considering Magic Initiate for Thorn Whip, some other cantrip, and at least one casting of Absorb Elements per day.  I don't think its normally a great feat, but doubling up on SG damage for even one creature occasionally + avoiding that big AOE with AE might make it worth it.

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## RogueJK

> I was thinking Sapping Sting wasn't bad in combo with Spirit Guardians.  Dropping someone (or 2 someones) prone while their movement is halved really locks them down.


The rider is potentially nice.  The problem is getting it to land reliably.  Statistically, CON save cantrips will fail to land more often than those that target other stats, since more enemies have high CON save bonuses than other stats.  (And a number of enemies have abnormally high CON save bonuses of well over +5, more commonly than seen with other stats.) 

The average save bonuses taken from 962 published 5E enemies are:

Str: +2.26
Dex: +1.99
Con: +3.01
Int: -0.05
Wis: +1.72
Cha: +0.75

So statistically, CON and STR saves are the most likely for an enemy to make, while INT and CHA saves are the least likely.  DEX and WIS sit in the middle.

This mostly seems to be a design choice, as once enemies move above Medium size, the designers seemed to automatically grant larger STR and CON bonuses.  You can basically assume than any Large+ sized enemy is almost always going to have a high STR and CON save.


In addition, Sapping Sting also only has a 30' range, which won't affect its ability to combo with 15' radius Spirit Guardians specifically, but does limit your Cleric's ability to be effective at medium/long range, compared to 60' Toll the Dead or especially 120' Chill Touch.

And Sapping Sting's 1d4 only does 1/2 to 1/3 of the damage of Chill Touch (1d8) or Toll the Dead (1d8/1d12).

Finally, yet another strike against Sapping Sting is that it's a Wildemount (Critical Role) cantrip, so is only quasi-official.  Therefore, not all DMs will allow it.  It's not legal in Adventure League either.

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## TheCleverGuy

Currently playing a Stars Druid that I multiclassed into Arcane Archer Fighter to really lean into the Archer form (actually started with the 3 fighter levels, then switched to druid).  It's a bit MAD, since the Arcane Shots key off INT, but you can choose options like Grasping and Bursting that don't require saves to mitigate it a bit.  And I do feel a bit squishy, but I've mostly been able to keep far enough back to avoid the brunt of most attacks.

My standard trick is to cast a utility spell like Entangle, then Action Surge to shoot with my bow and maybe use an Arcane Shot to up the damage, then follow up with a bonus action radiant arrow from the Starry Form.

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## psul

My Deep Gnome Stars Druid just died half-way through level 7 (took two Death Rays from a Beholder) so I can comment on low levels at least.  I chose Gnome/Stars because I needed to serve double-duty as healer and scout, and the Deep Gnome features work well for sneakiness, although not so much for resilience.

I agree that at low levels the Archer form is terrific.  In a party that was otherwise Barb, Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, I was one of the primary damage sources through Levels 2-4, especially at range.  Guiding bolt as a quasi-cantrip is great at those levels in particular.  

In terms of defence, I agree that positioning is your best option.  In open fights, I could generally stay out of the way of melee attacks (helped by area control spells) and had Absorb Elements in reserve for ranged elemental attacks.  In dungeons, my DM likes to have enemies come at us from all sides (including through walls/floors) so it was harder to avoid getting hit.  With studded leather and shield by level 4, and a starting 16 Dex (for scout skills), I had 17 AC, which wasn't terrible, but without the Shield spell to back it up, I did struggle when I couldn't get out of melee.

That also made for some difficult decisions on which Starry Form to use.  You really want to pick a form that will last through this combat and the next (10 minute duration) as you only get two forms per SR, so changing mid-combat is a big call.  I had Archer as my go-to for early levels, as it felt like I wasn't ever "wasting" a bonus action, but by level 5 I should have been starting in one of the other forms - probably Dragon if we were in close quarters, and Chalice otherwise.  

I did find bonus actions tricky.  Around Level 5 we lost our Cleric, leaving me as the only magical healer, and halfway through a fight I'd realise the party needed me in Chalice form.  But because I'd often only prepare Healing Word (not Cure Wounds), that would mean a wasted turn, as I needed a bonus action to change to Chalice form, and therefore couldn't heal until the turn afterwards.  For that reason I would consider Cure Wounds a more useful preparation for a Stars Druid than most other healers.  

Also worth checking with your DM as to how they see Chalice form working.  Mine ruled that it only applied to spells that did their healing immediately when cast - ie not to Healing Spirit, Aura of Vitality, Goodberry etc.  That meant only Cure Wounds and Healing Word were eligible before Mass Cure Wounds at character level 9.  I understand the logic, but it probably contributed to my under-use of Chalice form.

I didn't get much time to practice with the Level 6 feature, but I agree that having to make the call before the roll limits its usefulness as a tool of defence.

I've spent more words on some of the risks/downsides, but I really enjoyed playing a Stars Druid, and would recommend it.  I was really looking forward to Level 10 removing some of the tricky decisions on which form to use - I think that the subclass would have settled a lot more at that stage.  Having a plan for mitigating damage is good, and if you can spare the racial features to go Shifter, that's good, although beware the number of bonus actions to get both that and starry form up.  Hope you enjoy the subclass!

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## RogueJK

> That also made for some difficult decisions on which Starry Form to use.  You really want to pick a form that will last through this combat and the next (10 minute duration) as you only get two forms per SR, so changing mid-combat is a big call.


Until Level 10, when the Stars Druid gets to choose at the start of each turn which form they're going to use that turn.

This ability to shift forms on the fly is a super handy ability that often gets overlooked until you actually experience it in play.

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## animorte

> Until Level 10, when the Stars Druid gets to choose at the start of each turn which form they're going to use that turn.
> 
> This ability to shift forms on the fly is a super handy ability that often gets overlooked until you actually experience it in play.


Can confirm. Its amazing. You can easily adjust as necessary for whatever the encounter demands.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> My Deep Gnome Stars Druid just died half-way through level 7 (took two Death Rays from a Beholder) so I can comment on low levels at least.  I chose Gnome/Stars because I needed to serve double-duty as healer and scout, and the Deep Gnome features work well for sneakiness, although not so much for resilience.
> 
> I agree that at low levels the Archer form is terrific.  In a party that was otherwise Barb, Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, I was one of the primary damage sources through Levels 2-4, especially at range.  Guiding bolt as a quasi-cantrip is great at those levels in particular.  
> 
> In terms of defence, I agree that positioning is your best option.  In open fights, I could generally stay out of the way of melee attacks (helped by area control spells) and had Absorb Elements in reserve for ranged elemental attacks.  In dungeons, my DM likes to have enemies come at us from all sides (including through walls/floors) so it was harder to avoid getting hit.  With studded leather and shield by level 4, and a starting 16 Dex (for scout skills), I had 17 AC, which wasn't terrible, but without the Shield spell to back it up, I did struggle when I couldn't get out of melee.
> 
> That also made for some difficult decisions on which Starry Form to use.  You really want to pick a form that will last through this combat and the next (10 minute duration) as you only get two forms per SR, so changing mid-combat is a big call.  I had Archer as my go-to for early levels, as it felt like I wasn't ever "wasting" a bonus action, but by level 5 I should have been starting in one of the other forms - probably Dragon if we were in close quarters, and Chalice otherwise.  
> 
> I did find bonus actions tricky.  Around Level 5 we lost our Cleric, leaving me as the only magical healer, and halfway through a fight I'd realise the party needed me in Chalice form.  But because I'd often only prepare Healing Word (not Cure Wounds), that would mean a wasted turn, as I needed a bonus action to change to Chalice form, and therefore couldn't heal until the turn afterwards.  For that reason I would consider Cure Wounds a more useful preparation for a Stars Druid than most other healers.  
> ...


The level 10 feature really seems like the thing that makes this 'versatile' class actually versatile.  I think I'd just cast Healing Word/ Cure Wounds in whatever form I was in; the extra d8 from Chalice doesn't seem worth the action economy to switch.  Kind of too bad the part of the level 10 feature that allows you to switch forms for free doesn't come on earlier, maybe level 6; then just get the power boost for the individual forms at 10.

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## sambojin

Level 8 is also a pretty big jump in little wildshape for what you can do, and the resilience of them.

Flying forms and CR1 is great. And again, everything works with Archer.

Giant Octopus for 52HP and 15' ranged lockdown, Dire Wolf for 37HP 50' speed and trips, Giant Flying Spider for flying movement and ranged webs, Spider King for ground movement and 44HP and ranged webs, Giant Eagle for flying speed, or Crag Cat for magical defence mode, all aren't bad options.

No character, ever, complained about having a 1/sr ability to have +26-52HP and cool combat abilities and/or flying for 4+ hours. No, you can't cast, but you can still wildshape away an encounter or two each day, to really smash out some magic on the others. I only mention wildshape again, because so many people think later level wildshape is only for Moons. It's not. CR1 + Archer form is still pretty relevant at this level, and Archer scales where wildshape doesn't on to-hit. Even blowing a wildshape slot for 1-2 turns of movement is fine, if it saves your life or someone else's. Trips/ restrains/ webs/ air grapples, whatever. You've got lots of tools to use alongside the free HP.

It's also pretty worthwhile ensuring you have Athletics proficiency on any druid. Not only does it make wildshape good at grappling, it also provides defence against it, which can happen quite a bit to you.

(Guiding Bolt or Tidal Wave are great as instants to use while you've got a concentration spell up too, for when you're in caster form. Movement and positioning is always key as a druid for defence. Also, grab any damn magical shield or studded leather you can. You actually *do* need it, before most other classes do).

((Just choose. Are you casting? Then cast and stay out of the way. Maybe choose Dragon form, but it's really not necessary. Are you being tanky? Wildshape and Archer and don't cast. You've still got plenty of free HP and movement/ lockdown/ whatever, and you are one of the best people to buff with stuff (Bless, familiar help actions, whatever) to really push into "good at that" status. If your wildshape HP runs out, then go into casting-mode. And that's assuming you didn't cast a concentration spell on turn1 anyway. You're not slow in encounters, you've just got a huge list of things you can do. Without anything stopping you from picking any one of them, at any juncture, and it still being pretty good turn-wise.))

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## Person_Man

Youre a ranged full caster with healing spells and Wildshape.  Unless you get one shotted, you can basically always heal back to full-ish hit points in 1 round.  What more do you want?

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## Rav

Wear Half Plate and use a Shield. AC 19 no magic items. Is plenty fine.

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