# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 >  Question about Heir of Siberys, and a related rant

## Skyrender

I have gone through a couple of old "class handbook" threads recently, and something odd came to my attention on ones related to the dragon shaman and dragonfire adept classes. Both have Eberron-specific suggested builds that take a 1-level dip into Heir of Siberys at level 13 so the character can then take the Breath of Siberys feat at level 15 to boost the character's breath weapon damage by 2d6 (instead of the 1d6 you get with a least, lesser, or greater dragonmark). The problem is, the Heir of Siberys doesn't get the full Mark of Siberys until level 2 in the PRC. Am I missing a particular errata that explains why the build only needs to take a single level dip, or were both the posters wrong? (To be clear, it was two different people, not just one guy doing a cut-and-paste job.)



Now for the promised rant.


For the record, I'm not sure that either class really benefits from dipping into Heir of Siberys, regardless of whether the dip is 1 or 2 levels, unless they also plan to nab the Mark of Stars. Even then, it's iffy. Sure, the second level of Heir of Siberys gives you a once-a-day high-level SLA, which is nice, but you're delaying your main class's abilities by 2 levels, meaning everything else is going to be delayed a level or two. In fact, if you're only here for the extra damage from Breath of Siberys (the rationale given in the handbooks), it's better to just take a Least Dragonmark to qualify for it. That way, you don't lose damage to gain the same amount of damage, and you can get the extra damage sooner, anyway.

The dragon shaman will get a bonus feat at Heir of Siberys 2 that allows you to take Breath of Siberys at character level 14, and allowing Mark of Stars a level after that. This compensates for the loss of damage from pushing back the dragon shaman class progression by 2 levels, but the class is still a mid-tier 4. 

The dragonfire adept delays access to 3 of its 8 invocations by a couple of levels (or only 2 of them, if you wait to level 14 to start the PRC), and pushes back access to dark invocations by those same two levels. Sure, you get the SLA from the Siberys Mark, and you can eventually get the Mark of Stars at level 18, which is nothing to sneeze at. But is that worth losing a caster level on your draconic invocations, delaying your level 15 breath effect to level 17, and losing the level 20 breath effect altogether (assuming you keep the game going long enough)? I think not.

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## Gorthawar

Levels that add +1 to arcane or general spellcasting also advance invocations and breath damage for a dragonfire adept. So if you were to compare dfa 20 to dfa17/hos3 you only lose +1 armor, 1 breath effect and immunity to sleep and paralysis but gain all the goodies from heir of siberys.

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## Skyrender

> Levels that add +1 to arcane or general spellcasting also advance invocations and breath damage for a dragonfire adept. So if you were to compare dfa 20 to dfa17/hos3 you only lose +1 armor, 1 breath effect and immunity to sleep and paralysis but gain all the goodies from heir of siberys.


Actually, all the DFA gets out of the "+1 spellcaster level" benefit is advancing breath weapon damage (not gaining new breath effects), and a boost to caster level when using their invocations (not new invocations or access to higher tiers of invocations). If a DFA takes 3 levels as an Heir of Siberys, they lose not only a breath effect and a breath damage die, but also one of the only two dark invocations they can get. And since dark invocations are basically at-will high-level spells, dumping one of those for an extra daily use of a similarly powerful spell is probably a bad deal.

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## sreservoir

It's a bit hidden across the column break but


> She also gains new invocations at each prestige class level as though she had risen a level in the dragonfire adept class.

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