# Forum > Comics > Webcomics >  unOrdinary

## Thales

unOrdinary (first comic) is a Manga-ish high-school drama webcomic in a world where everyone has superpowers. There's some interesting mysteries to the setting that I have a feeling the author does indeed have answers for. The characters gradually develop in largely plausible ways (with possibly one notable exception that we'll see how the author resolves), and a good range prove more sympathetic than they seem at first glance. I haven't seen it posted here before, so hope you all enjoy!

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## understatement

Well, to start off discussion...

*Spoiler*
Show


I've kind of grown tired of John? He's been stuck in the same character rut for the past few months and he honestly feels like a caricature right now. I don't know if that's intentional or not. And i'm aware he's been through rough things, but today's update on President Vaughn just casually restraining him was much more satisfying than it should be.

Why doesn't Vaughn alert his dad? Or is his dad out of town?

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## Ibrinar

*Spoiler*
Show

Still? I kinda decided to wait and just read through the whole edgy John phase in one go, but I have been waiting to hear about it ending for quite a while.

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## Thales

Yeah, this is the possible exception on the character development front...
*Spoiler*
Show

I sort of figured John's instability and violence were chalked up to his disastrous experience at his previous school. But we got the flashbacks, and no, it looks like he had the same pattern there: nice kid before he starts using his powers, over-the-top violent monster when he does. This feels like a mistake on the author's front: if resolving what happened last time is necessary to fix this, how does that fit with him having gone down an awfully similar path without the prior experience?

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## Typewriter

*Spoiler: John*
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I will say that when this plot thread began - John going crazy - that I didn't expect it to become as big of a point as it's been or last as long as it has. I think it's really interesting and well done but I feel like the story is still going to incorporate a redemption for him and if it goes much longer it's going to make that harder and harder to swallow.

EDIT: I also have one minor problem with the story as it stands - right now John has shown that his problems run deep. So deep that there's really only two ways to 'fix' him - the first is that he goes to a lot of therapy and the comic becomes about that. Which is unlikely. The second is that he does some sort of act of redemption (gets injured trying to save Sera) which shows he still cares and proves that he's not a monster. I don't think this is inherently a bad thing but the problem is that it's the sort of thing that isn't going to come about as a result of character development - it's simply going to be caused by **something** happening at whatever point the author feels like writing it. It causes me to feel like I'm waiting for the author to get to that point rather than waiting for the story to get to that point.

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## Sir_Norbert

Thanks for the link! I read this a few years ago when it was only about 1/3 of its current length (I think it stopped just before the point John's dad first appears), then lost sight of it. Over the last few days I've gotten caught up, and it was well worth it.

*Spoiler*
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I agree that the John storyline is problematic. I'm kind of hoping that he's hit a brick wall in the latest update with Vaughn restraining him, and the only direction he can go now is back towards working with others. At some point, after all, his storyline has to link up with the other major storyline. Seraphina having learned the full truth about his background will help as well.

The mystery storyline is much more interesting, but it keeps drifting in and out of focus and hasn't moved very far in a while now. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing where that goes (especially since Remi is my favourite character), but I doubt I'll have the patience to keep up with weekly updates. I'll probably leave this one for another few years and then happen upon it again and see where we're up to.

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## Kantaki

Not quite caught up yet, but it's a interesting story.

*Spoiler: John*
Show

I think the problem with John is that he got too powerful too late.

Oh and also that their society encourages everyone to act like some kind of amalgam _My Hero Academia's_ Bakugou and _Worm_'s Sophia.
Absolutely in love with themselves for their "power" and ruthlessly kicking down anyone "weaker" for the smallest excuse. And even those who aren't that bad- or, like Remi, want to help people -tend to overlook the lower ranks.

This Keon guy called John a "late bloomer" and, despite everything else, I think he's right that this is the root of John's... subscriptions*.
Basically, by the time his power put him at the absolute top of the pack (which in itself is probably unhealthy) he had learned that it's alright to beat down anyone weaker than him, but not how to show restraint.
Add in a good bit of resentment against the system and those he sees as powerful and you pretty much get what we see.

The "nice" John from the beginning was pretty much just a mask. And a good helping of trauma from his "re-education" If he ever was real it probably got beaten out of him in his old school at the latest.
It's a coping mechanisms to help him stay out of the big game of power.
And then Arlo tried to force him back** and Serafina lost her power.

*Keon basically torturing him into behaving "right" is another one.
**While I don't entirely blame him for John's rampage that wasn't his greatest move.

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## -D-

Not gonna lie. unOrdinary is one of my favorite webcomic/manga atm.

But god, oh god, is the pacing atrocious. I've never seen such glacial pacing in a webcomic (and I've read Erfworld). Like, I **** on a lot of webcomics for this, but here it double applies. It seems like this might be a WebToons issue cause a lot of comics to follow a similar pattern.

*Spoiler: Here be spoilers for everything*
Show


That said. I never met a more unlikeable cast that I can still follow around.

Other than John, Remi, and maybe Sera, everyone is a massive douche. To clarify: John isn't a douche; he's a ****ing bastard.

John seems to understand how cripple and low tiers feel. OTOH he's a powerhouse that hates using his power. He seems to be suffering from some PTSD and MASSIVE ****ING ANGER ISSUES that would make Khorn recruit him on the spot. Oh, and John-everyone-is-trash has massive self-loathing and ego issues (don't pin me beating your friends on me, says John, after quite brutally bashing his fellow students).

Sera seems like a kind of **** tier friend, disbelieving John (her friend) and generally just enjoying the rebel life with John, but not really helping that much. Her siding with Arlo is quite understandable; John lied to her and never admitted to his failings. That said if your "friend" is going through a rough time, "Get over it" might be a complete ****ing wrong thing to say. There was a joke on some unOrdinary Discord that maybe Sera should "Get over" her issues with her sister. I mean, it's just that easy, right, Sera? What if her betrayal played on loop for a year?

Remi is a slacktivist. Organizing stuff that, while well-intentioned, is bound to fail. Basically, Rei 2.0. In essence, he achieved nothing. She's, however nicest cast around. 

Arlo. Is a massive prick. Yeah, let's antagonize a guy that's not scared of you; let's trigger his deep-seated trust issues to force him into the fold. That worked out nicely for everyone involved. And he got with it Scotts free, sans a beating or two and loss of title, that he didn't care about much anyway. Right now, finding out authorities killed his best friend is probably the biggest punishment that he "suffered."

Blyke. Also, a douche. Luckily he kind of redeemed himself by not doing drugs with obvious side effects. That said, yeah, he couldn't stand John, but John has inadvertently shown that he'd probably be the best super-power teacher in that world. He motivated Blyke to improve while showing techniques Blyke didn't know he had. But he basically has the same temper as John, though not as extreme.

But what kills this webcomic for me is again the glacial pacing and John's character being stuck between a kind traumatized teenager you feel sorry for and an outright villain. And it's been stuck for hundreds of episodes. I kind of want him to be redeemed or go full-on villain and get to murder.

I mean, I give kudos to the author for not chickening out and making PTSD trivial to heal, but this is just going overboard.

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## Typewriter

> Not gonna lie. unOrdinary is one of my favorite webcomic/manga atm.
> 
> But god, oh god, is the pacing atrocious. I've never seen such glacial pacing in a webcomic (and I've read Erfworld). Like, I **** on a lot of webcomics for this, but here it double applies. It seems like this might be a WebToons issue cause a lot of comics to follow a similar pattern.
> 
> *Spoiler: Here be spoilers for everything*
> Show
> 
> 
> That said. I never met a more unlikeable cast that I can still follow around.
> ...


*Spoiler: Yeah*
Show

I think what makes it tolerable for me, despite all those flaws with the characters, is that it has a very 'real' feeling to it. I can totally believe that this would be the world if people had these random powers. I believe people would see things the way they do and act in these ways. Most of the time you see a story like this the author tries to give too many people normal 'real world' emotional reactions so it doesn't feel right. The characters are largely flawed, by our perspective, but if you can accept the world for what it is and how it's different they're actually a lot better by the standard being set.

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## Thales

> Not gonna lie. unOrdinary is one of my favorite webcomic/manga atm.
> 
> But god, oh god, is the pacing atrocious. I've never seen such glacial pacing in a webcomic (and I've read Erfworld). Like, I **** on a lot of webcomics for this, but here it double applies. It seems like this might be a WebToons issue cause a lot of comics to follow a similar pattern.


I mean, in contrast to Erfworld and quite a few other webcomics with pacing issues, at least the update schedule is reliable and not too slow. But yes, things develop fairly slowly as measured by comics or panels and not real-world weeks.

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## -D-

> I mean, in contrast to Erfworld and quite a few other webcomics with pacing issues, at least the update schedule is reliable and not too slow. But yes, things develop fairly slowly as measured by comics or panels and not real-world weeks.


True. That's one benefit. But I get the feeling it is being slow on purpose.

*Spoiler:  Fastpass last episode spoiler*
Show

The series dragged Ember's reveal so much, once it was 100% confirmed, it just fell flat for me. I mean, who could be behind Ember, was it a corporation backed by a government or just a special government task force? What could it be?





> *Spoiler: Yeah*
> Show
> 
> I think what makes it tolerable for me, despite all those flaws with the characters, is that it has a very 'real' feeling to it. I can totally believe that this would be the world if people had these random powers. I believe people would see things the way they do and act in these ways. Most of the time you see a story like this the author tries to give too many people normal 'real world' emotional reactions so it doesn't feel right. The characters are largely flawed, by our perspective, but if you can accept the world for what it is and how it's different they're actually a lot better by the standard being set.


*Spoiler: Character inconsistencies*
Show

I agree in some aspects.

Yeah, people are acting realistic, but I don't get any consistency. Also, realism takes a backseat to a good plot and writing. People spend large time on the loo. You'll never see that in any good writing, unless plot-relevant.

Like Arlo - He's pro-hierarchy. He gets dethroned, and he's like meh. Not even going to be the Ace, Arlo? Jesus. You were willing to fight a cripple to get him to accept hierarchy and suspend Sera because they didn't conform. And now you don't even want to try to maintain proper hierarchy?

Or Sera. Grr. I hate my sister, I have deep-seated trust issues. Next chapter - I believe you, cause I want my powers back. Really, Sera? One, or the other. How do you know she isn't going to stab you in the back?

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## Typewriter

> *Spoiler: Character inconsistencies*
> Show
> 
> I agree in some aspects.
> 
> Yeah, people are acting realistic, but I don't get any consistency. Also, realism takes a backseat to a good plot and writing. People spend large time on the loo. You'll never see that in any good writing, unless plot-relevant.
> 
> Like Arlo - He's pro-hierarchy. He gets dethroned, and he's like meh. Not even going to be the Ace, Arlo? Jesus. You were willing to fight a cripple to get him to accept hierarchy and suspend Sera because they didn't conform. And now you don't even want to try to maintain proper hierarchy?
> 
> Or Sera. Grr. I hate my sister, I have deep-seated trust issues. Next chapter - I believe you, cause I want my powers back. Really, Sera? One, or the other. How do you know she isn't going to stab you in the back?


*Spoiler*
Show

The important distinction into realism mattering, in my opinion, is when it tells us something about the characters, the world, or the story. Most of the time realism takes a back seat because it does nothing but detract - we don't need to see people go to the bathroom (unless there's something key to it). But in this story we need to see the mundane 'realistic' details to get us into the mindset of the world. For a long time after I started reading it I rebelled against the world it was demonstrating, thinking it unrealistic, but I eventually realized I was projecting my perspectives on it - my perspectives that are derived from a boring, regular world. By seeing what is 'mundane' to the characters it helped me realize and understand more about the world and the story. The hierarchy isn't a random anime plot device - it's a key component of how the world evolved.

It ties into my opinion of every aspect of the story - Arlo, for your example. Here is a character who *knew* how the world worked. He understood it and he enjoyed the benefits of his power. John comes along and starts preaching about something that goes against what Arlo knows to be true and so Arlo does what he thinks is right - he brings the hammer. And John destroys him. So he believes that might makes right - John is stronger than him - but John who is 'right' in the eyes of Arlo by virtue of his strength argues that he shouldn't be seen this way - that the hierarchy is bad.

So Arlo has paradoxical beliefs forming in his mind and he attempts to force everything in place according to what is comfortable to him (enforce the hierarchy) to try and make sense of it all. And it blows up and continually gets worse and worse. Everything he thinks he knows is broken by John who argues against the hierarchy and so Arlo walks away and then John tries to force Arlo to play by the rules of the hierarchy - when he is the one who ruined it for him. Again - the paradox. Arlo believes in Jon by virtue of his strength but Jon argues against using strength as a measure of who someone is - all the while using his strength to measure everyone. And it's all his fault - but by his own beliefs he didn't do anything wrong in forcing Jon to take his place because he believes in the hierarchy even as he suddenly finds himself regretting his actions that have caused all of this.

The system does not provide an answer and he's always relied on the system to do so. He does not have his strength to fall back on - it's already failed him. He doesn't have the mercy he failed to show to those he saw as his enemies. He's stuck in limbo and looking for direction. Every time something pushes him in a direction he goes with it but none of it gives him the guidance he needs. He goes with the safe room because a peer told him to do so then he gives up on it because someone told him to focus on his grades and his power. Then when Sera invited him along on her adventure he just sort of decided to go along with it. Arlo is lost and broken - he is looking for an answer that does not exist. He is being forced to think of things in ways that contradict his entire belief structure.

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## Kantaki

New comic

Arlo actually looks more impressive when he fights with less power.
I guess that comes with actually fighting instead of just planting down his bubble and letting it reflect all the damage.

Also, Sera might say no one deserves that power nullifier, but I think John might _need_ it in the end. Not sure he'll stop otherwise.

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## -D-

> Also, Sera might say no one deserves that power nullifier, but I think John might _need_ it in the end. Not sure he'll stop otherwise.


Yeah. Let the guy who made massive grudges, and with no one to protect him. What could go wrong? Remember how he got his temper back when he didn't have powers? That times ten.

Remember Sera? And her transgressions were relatively small. She didn't antagonize the entire school unless you want him to go full-on villain.




> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> So, Arlo has paradoxical beliefs forming in his mind, and he attempts to force everything in place according to what is comfortable to him (enforce the hierarchy) to try and make sense of it all. And it blows up and continually gets worse and worse


*Spoiler: FASTPASS*
Show

While Arlo's change of opinion is quite understandable, the pacing makes him look as dumb as a doorknob - namely the Ember reveal. Every other character and reader figured it out already.

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## Kantaki

> Yeah. Let the guy who made massive grudges, and with no one to protect him. What could go wrong? Remember how he got his temper back when he didn't have powers? That times ten.
> 
> Remember Sera? And her transgressions were relatively small. She didn't antagonize the entire school unless you want him to go full-on villain.


Ideally it won't be necessary, but with John's current course? I'd definitely consider it a option.
As a last resort if it's clear nothing else will work.

It definitely beats letting Keon work on him again. A large chunk of the John's issues probably come from _that_ experience.

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## -D-

> Ideally it won't be necessary, but with John's current course? I'd definitely consider it a option.
> As a last resort if it's clear nothing else will work.
> 
> It definitely beats letting Keon work on him again. A large chunk of John's issues probably come from _that_ experience.


I mean, who knows. It's a possibility. But, eh, a lousy one.

Keon didn't cause John's anger issues; his from Nobody to God caused those. He was bullied his whole life and got a chance to pay back revenge with interests. That and being "betrayed" by Claire, his love interest (confirmed by uru-chan on Reddit AMA). Keon just built a house on that foundation.

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## Thales

Okay, that was anticlimactic.
*Spoiler*
Show

"You're cornered! Nowhere to run from all of us folks with knives! There's nothing you can do to avoid... a slightly awkward phone call."
"Ugh, fine. Yes, yes, whatever, I'm a loose cannon who doesn't play by the rules. Now, we both know that you saying that means I'm pretty much in charge here. Talk to you later!"

I feel like Seraphina is making a mistake here. Obviously, ability power is power, especially when you have one as strong as hers. But if she works with Leilah's org, their interests might not align with hers. And they don't seem like a safe group to backstab, even if she has her power back.



It's mildly interesting that powers seem to have their strength as something orthogonal from what they actually are, and all seem to grant some level of superstrength, speed, and durability. Flame claws is a pretty awful power in a vacuum: it has no applications besides making close-range attacks a lot more deadly. But as we saw, it conferred enough general power to contend with on-paper vastly superior ones.

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## Kantaki

You know, John is really starting to annoy me with his attitude. Let's hope Sera is back soon to talk some sense into him. Or beat. At the rate he's going she'll probably have to start it with beating.

I mean, yeah, the system needs to change, but just kicking over the anthill and then attacking everyone trying to restore some semblance of stability or even just wanting to find some safe and peaceful spot to hide isn't what it needs.

So yes John, _you_ need to change.
So need others, mind you, but they have at least started too. John might've been the push the school needed, but now he's a obstacle to the very changes he triggered- and _wanted_ at some point.

Oh well, at least it seems Cecile isn't going to play minion anymore. The problem with the stick and bigger stick approach I guess.

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## Typewriter

> You know, John is really starting to annoy me with his attitude. Let's hope Sera is back soon to talk some sense into him. Or beat. At the rate he's going she'll probably have to start it with beating.
> 
> I mean, yeah, the system needs to change, but just kicking over the anthill and then attacking everyone trying to restore some semblance of stability or even just wanting to find some safe and peaceful spot to hide isn't what it needs.
> 
> So yes John, _you_ need to change.
> So need others, mind you, but they have at least started too. John might've been the push the school needed, but now he's a obstacle to the very changes he triggered- and _wanted_ at some point.
> 
> Oh well, at least it seems Cecile isn't going to play minion anymore. The problem with the stick and bigger stick approach I guess.


John needs to be weaker than someone and have it not result in him being bullied. He cannot change his perspective on the world because he has no reason to trust what people are saying to him - everyone falls into one of three categories for him.

1. Weaker than him and against him.
2. Weaker than him and a lackey.
3. Stronger than him and a bully.

Right now people keep telling him that he should trust them - we've learned our lesson, bullying is bad, etc. - but he has no reason to believe that it's genuine. It's not that they've learned, it's that they're afraid. Or that they don't think bullying is bad - they just wish it was them with the strength to bully. John needs to encounter a fourth category - he needs to be weaker than people and have those people show him genuine kindness. He needs to lose but then get picked back up - or he needs to lose his powers and have Arlo and those he's been beating the **** out of defend him and protect him. He needs that experience to serve as evidence of what they are saying to him.

That's what makes Sera such an important character for him - she was that fourth category. She was the only person in that category. She was strong and she was his friend. He had to work for it but she was evidence that a strong person could accept a weak person. And then Sera became weak and John saw everyone turn on her - he saw people lash out at her - he saw the weak turn on the strong as soon as they were able to do so. People who were afraid of Sera and showed deference to her turned on her the moment they could.

John has every reason to believe that he is right - that Arlo and everyone is lying and against him. That fear is the sole motivator for people claiming to have changed. His strength makes the word of those around him unreliable. He can't trust Sera because she has aligned herself with those who he knows are wrong/bad. Until John experiences weakness and is shown kindness from these people he **cannot** change.

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## -D-

Does anyone here Fast Pass Unordinary?

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## PoeticallyPsyco

*Spoiler: This week*
Show

John's reached the point where he no longer knows what he even wants; he just knows that he's miserable, and wants the people who started this to be as miserable as he is.

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## Kantaki

*Spoiler: this week*
Show

 Finally some progress on the John front.
I mean, he's still crazy, but we get to see deeper than John's anger and it's clear that he's somewhat aware he's not better than those who pushed him around.
And that overlay effect makes me hopeful at least some of his saner personality is still there, which can only help Sera getting through his thick skull.

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## agustin1987

I dont hate john but that doesn't mean I love him. Though, I like his character a lot. If I want to describe more precisely, I would say to me hes almost same as the Joker from the recent joker movie, at least for now. I mean how the Joker was such a good person at first who just wanted to make people smile and be happy on his own but the people and his own twisted mind didn't let him.

Same goes with John and I have a hunch that in coming future it would be revealed that John has some mental disorders

Well, I wouldn't say John is wrong in any wayIt doesn't mean I fully support him and if I seriously hate someone or something in this webtoon with all my heart then it would be Ember.

Till then Im waiting for more of John and other charactersEspecially hoping for some character development.

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## -D-

> Same goes with John and I have a hunch that in coming future it would be revealed that John has some mental disorders


That's all but outright stated. He had anger issues before. Now he has anger issues + severe self loathing thanks to Keon. And some form of PTSD.

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## Kantaki

New comic

*Spoiler*
Show

Hooray! Sera's back in the game.
And just in time to stop Johnny-boy from doing something everyone would regret. Well, maybe not Zeke. Dude's a jerk.

Now the question is will John listen or keep up his tantrum*? It wouldn't surprise me if this puts Sera on his enemy list. Especially in his current mood.
For all that she might want to solve this peacefully, I'm not sure John can do that right now.
Especially if Zeke keeps egging him on.

*Look, I won't deny his anger isn't justified, or that his grievances aren't real, but at this point?
He's just lashing out. _Again_.

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## Douglas

> John needs to be weaker than someone and have it not result in him being bullied. He cannot change his perspective on the world because he has no reason to trust what people are saying to him - everyone falls into one of three categories for him.
> 
> 1. Weaker than him and against him.
> 2. Weaker than him and a lackey.
> 3. Stronger than him and a bully.
> 
> Right now people keep telling him that he should trust them - we've learned our lesson, bullying is bad, etc. - but he has no reason to believe that it's genuine. It's not that they've learned, it's that they're afraid. Or that they don't think bullying is bad - they just wish it was them with the strength to bully. John needs to encounter a fourth category - he needs to be weaker than people and have those people show him genuine kindness. He needs to lose but then get picked back up - or he needs to lose his powers and have Arlo and those he's been beating the **** out of defend him and protect him. He needs that experience to serve as evidence of what they are saying to him.
> 
> That's what makes Sera such an important character for him - she was that fourth category. She was the only person in that category. She was strong and she was his friend. He had to work for it but she was evidence that a strong person could accept a weak person. And then Sera became weak and John saw everyone turn on her - he saw people lash out at her - he saw the weak turn on the strong as soon as they were able to do so. People who were afraid of Sera and showed deference to her turned on her the moment they could.
> ...


All of this, plus he's also projecting his own personal history on everyone else. When he was constantly bullied at his old school, the moment he started getting power he sought revenge. He fought back. He only ever kept his head down when he was forced to by someone still stronger than him, and he never joined or agreed with the people stronger than him.

Now that he's the strong one, he expects everyone else to behave like he used to, and can't see that his legitimate grievances give some people real reasons to actually sympathize with him. He has no idea what someone with power genuinely buying into his complaints looks like because he's never seen it before, from either side.

Now, with yesterday's update, that critical fourth category just might be back. It depends a lot on one still unanswered question: can John copy Seraphina's ability? I suspect that, at least if she's careful about it, he can't. He has to see an ability being used before he can copy it, and I think seeing the before-and-after of a time stop wouldn't count. The actual use of the ability is too sudden and instantaneous to perceive. If he sees her use Rewind, though, _that_ could be a problem, especially if he can get the generalized "time manipulation" ability from it rather than just the specific application.

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## Anteros

> That's all but outright stated. He had anger issues before. Now he has anger issues + severe self loathing thanks to Keon. And some form of PTSD.


Well, it's not like his self loathing isn't deserved.  He's a completely awful excuse for a human being.  Unordinary is remarkable for how my view of the character shifted over the narrative.  Arlo and Blyke grew from terrible people into good ones, and John who was originally portrayed as a great person was revealed to be a massive hypocrite. It's great character development.

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## -D-

> Well, it's not like his self loathing isn't deserved.  He's a completely awful excuse for a human being.  Unordinary is remarkable for how my view of the character shifted over the narrative.  Arlo and Blyke grew from terrible people into good ones, and John who was originally portrayed as a great person was revealed to be a massive hypocrite. It's great character development.


Was John a massive hypocrite? And a sorry excuse for a human, as you said?

I don't think a hypocrite would go to such lengths, pretending to be power-less in a world that treats being regular human as a disability. I do think he wanted to avoid power, both personal and as a king. If anything he wanted to change high tiers to be more friendly. It worked with Sera, but Arlo couldn't settle.

Arlo is no saint either, instead of continuing Rei's work, he just re-created the old system, with him in charge.
Keep in mind this same system decided that since Sera is powerless, she should be abused, since that's the expected normal. Arlo both comes up as extremely prideful and totally ignorant how his system works in practice for anyone else.

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## PoeticallyPsyco

I'd say it's less John was _revealed_ to be a massive hypocrite, and more he _became_ one. I think he genuinely believed in what he was preaching, he just lost control and went to the dark side when placed in a position of power (exactly like he was afraid of doing, which is why he pretended to be powerless in the first place).

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## Kantaki

> I'd say it's less John was _revealed_ to be a massive hypocrite, and more he _became_ one. I think he genuinely believed in what he was preaching, he just lost control and went to the dark side when placed in a position of power (exactly like he was afraid of doing, which is why he pretended to be powerless in the first place).


Considering this is the second time that things turn out like this? John definitely can't deal with power.
I think he even shouted at Arlo* during one of his rants that he just wanted to stay out of everything.

The issue is that he didn't start powerful.
His dad had no Ability, he started without one, the people in his neighbourhood were probably low-rankers, his friends definitely were.

So he never learned to deal with power, because he had no one to teach him, because the society he lives in doesn't expect people to raise that far.

So when he discovered his ability? When he became powerful? All he knew was how to lash out, how to kick down anyone weaker he perceived as opposing him.

Which because he started so low- and because unlike other low-rankers he never kept his head down and predictably got beaten for it -was everyone. Even his closest friends when they told him he went too far.

Mind you, the real problem is the system and those upholding it. Might makes right is not the most ideal fundament to build a society on.

*Who _ couldn't_ understand this before everything he went through. Because it literally goes against all he was taught. Same with the distrust others had for the authorities. With his aunt being part of them, how could he?

 It's Imo also why he couldn't uphold Rei's ideals**.
Even leaving aside that as a second year who just inherited the position, with him being born into power, into a family strongly tied to the system, with a upbringing like that Arlo sees the flaws in said system even less than others.

**Who started out as a mid-rank if I recall correctly.

----------


## Thales

I was surprised to find that he'd gone in such a similar path the first time, when he really hadn't known he had powers. His current reign of terror seemed to be a response to the trauma of that first experience and what the Authorities did to rein him in, but apparently not  he got super violent and bloodthirsty before as well.




> His dad had no Ability


We have no direct evidence to support this, but trope-wise, I would not be surprised if John's dad either has a very potent ability or is in a leadership role of some shadowy organization. Explains how John won the power lottery in a setting where this does seem to be genetically determined, and why he's away so much.

----------


## Kantaki

> We have no direct evidence to support this, but trope-wise, I would not be surprised if John's dad either has a very potent ability or is in a leadership role of some shadowy organization. Explains how John won the power lottery in a setting where this does seem to be genetically determined, and why he's away so much.


I think it was mentioned at some point that he's a Cripple? But yeah, _apparently_ powerless.
And sure, it would make sense if John's father (or mother, but she's a non-entity, so who cares) has either a powerful Ability or is an outlier in a high-ranker family.
Maybe we'll find out if he shows up again because Sera needs help helping John.

If it turns out he has strong powers and never taught John how to deal with that* it'd kinda move him from actually decent father into parent of the year territory though, so I kinda hope not.

*The book doesn't count. He only gave it to John after the rampage.

----------


## Anteros

His willingness to let Sera get hurt to maintain his cover cemented his position as a terrible person in my opinion long before he truly went off the deep end like he is now.

As for Arlo, he's much more of a product of his surroundings as anyone.  If you're willing to make excuses for John I don't see how you can not do the same for Arlo. He's spent every moment of his life being brainwashed by his family, friends, and even his government that maintaining the hierarchy of power is the best thing he can possibly do for people. The fact that he's as open minded as he is is already borderline unbelievable.

----------


## -D-

> His willingness to let Sera get hurt to maintain his cover cemented his position as a terrible person in my opinion long before he truly went off the deep end like he is now.


He let himself be hurt on a DAILY level to keep the cripple mask. The one time Sera was hurt, he was relying on Arlo to protect her.




> As for Arlo, he's much more of a product of his surroundings as anyone.  If you're willing to make excuses for John I don't see how you can not do the same for Arlo.


Much more than John? Him being pampered and privileged his entire life is somehow more tragic than someone rising from the bottom to the top and getting dunked on?

Let's do an experiment on privilege. Imagine for a second anyone lower than 2.0 is black or lower caste if you are more familiar with it (because let's face it, they are treated as a lower caste by unO society). Now replay the things that happened in unO. 
-----------

The thing about Arlo is that it takes some real amount of dimness on Arlo's part to not realize what John, Sera, Remi, Blyke, and everyone around him were telling him. He has to be massively in the darkness to not understand it.




> I'd say it's less John was _revealed_ to be a massive hypocrite, and more he _became_ one. I think he genuinely believed in what he was preaching, he just lost control and went to the dark side when placed in a position of power (exactly like he was afraid of doing, which is why he pretended to be powerless in the first place).


I don't think he honestly believed in it. John just _wanted_ it to be true, so he pretended it was the truth. 

As far as I understand John is suffering from PTSD (thanks Keon), that means certain triggers were making flashback back to that state (things like Remi approaching him, Arlo's betrayal, low rankers, etc.). And that means another trip to Keon, which John wants to avoid by any means. 
The more John struggled to avoid it - becoming Joker, becoming king, the more were things turning out the same as before. 
Thus, the more desperate John became, making things turn out the same as before.




> I think it was mentioned at some point that he's a Cripple?
> 
> If it turns out he has strong powers and never taught John how to deal with that* it'd kinda move him from actually decent father into parent of the year territory though, so I kinda hope not.


Pretty sure, he's listed as true Cripple and that author confirmed he never had any power.

----------


## Anteros

> He let himself be hurt on a DAILY level to keep the cripple mask. The one time Sera was hurt, he was relying on Arlo to protect her.


Which is admirable. Self sacrifice is admirable. Sacrificing others you claim to care for to avoid your problems is what psychopaths do. 




> Much more than John? Him being pampered and privileged his entire life is somehow more tragic than someone rising from the bottom to the top and getting dunked on?
> 
> Let's do an experiment on privilege. Imagine for a second anyone lower than 2.0 is black or lower caste if you are more familiar with it (because let's face it, they are treated as a lower caste by unO society). Now replay the things that happened in unO. 
> -----------
> 
> The thing about Arlo is that it takes some real amount of dimness on Arlo's part to not realize what John, Sera, Remi, Blyke, and everyone around him were telling him. He has to be massively in the darkness to not understand it.


You know full good and well we can't discuss your analogy on this forum. I'll just say I disagree with it and leave it at that. 

As to your other points, John was a victim who suddenly got the power to be the aggressor and abused it despite everyone in his life begging him to stop. He is a bad person. He's sympathetic, but that just makes him a bad person with a sympathetic back story. Arlo is someone who has been brainwashed by everyone he trusted his entire life to believe that might makes right and yet still became compassionate towards those weaker than him. He is by *far* a more admirable person than John. It isn't even close.  It doesn't matter who had the easier life, Arlo is a better person than John is now.




> I don't think he honestly believed in it. John just _wanted_ it to be true, so he pretended it was the truth. 
> 
> As far as I understand John is suffering from PTSD (thanks Keon), that means certain triggers were making flashback back to that state (things like Remi approaching him, Arlo's betrayal, low rankers, etc.). And that means another trip to Keon, which John wants to avoid by any means. 
> The more John struggled to avoid it - becoming Joker, becoming king, the more were things turning out the same as before. 
> Thus, the more desperate John became, making things turn out the same as before.


You act like John has no agency in his own actions. He could stop the bad things from happening at any time. No one is preventing that from happening except John.

His "PTSD" is a direct result of being forced to experience what he put his victims through. Cry me a river. He deserves every bad thing that comes his way.  At least Arlo's experiences made him a better person. John chooses to become worse at every opportunity.  Arlo was blind to his situation and allowed people to suffer. John willfully causes suffering as often as possible and then jerks himself off about how self righteous he is for doing it.

----------


## -D-

> You know full good, and well, we can't discuss your analogy on this forum. I'll say I disagree with it and leave it at that.


Ok, replace it with high/low status.




> As to your other points, John was a victim who suddenly got the power to be the aggressor and abused it despite everyone in his life begging him to stop. He is a bad person.


He has or had violent tendencies. And for all the philosophizing, he's right. Society turns a blind eye to it, implicitly condoning it. When John begged, who stopped? And why should he give them more rights than what he got? 

NB John was way more violent than current John. NB John snapped at the random comment, while current John is focused on ex-Royals and Safe House. Is it because John wasn't given enough time to give in to his violent tendencies, is speculation at this point.




> You act like John has no agency in his own actions. He could stop the bad things from happening at any time. No one is preventing that from happening except John.


Does he? He snapped at Remi for just briefly reminding him of Claire. The more flashback we see, the less in control he seems to be. Before his fight with Sera he looks hungover, as if he was binge drinking.




> His "PTSD" is a direct result of being forced to experience what he put his victims through.


You're wrong on both accounts.
His PTSD is a result of not being controllable. Had he beat his entire school within an inch of their life, then complied, Authorities wouldn't have re-educated him. That's the horrible realization. His violence is ok, but his insubordination isn't.

His flashbacks only portray Claire's betrayal. That's played on loop in his mind. Not what he put others through, just her betrayal. The thing that was written off the record, was that John liked Claire and thought this was a romantic letter. That and what Adrion overheard is what makes it tortuous. 
It is kinda self-centered but I never accused John of magnanimity. His critical weaknesses are being selfish and a really ****ing nasty temper.



> Cry me a river. He deserves every bad thing that comes his way. At least Arlo's experiences made him a better person. John chooses to become worse at every opportunity.  Arlo was blind to his situation and allowed people to suffer. John willfully causes suffering as often as possible and then jerks himself off about how self-righteous he is for doing it.


Cry? I do enjoy John getting his just desserts. But people seem to think he's the only one that needs comeuppance. 

Arlo's only sympathetic because of what happened to others. If Rei didn't become a vigilante because of Ordinary, and if Sera never lost her ability, he'd be the same hierarchy zealot. He changed only because people close to him got burned.
If Spider-lady and some stranger were targeted? He'd still harp about hierarchy.

What anguish did Arlo experience for being blind and/or stupid? Next to nothing.

As for John attacking and jerking himself off about being righteous, that's more of a defense mechanism.

----------


## Anteros

> Ok, replace it with high/low status.
> 
> 
> He has or had violent tendencies. And for all the philosophizing, he's right. Society turns a blind eye to it, implicitly condoning it. When John begged, who stopped? And why should he give them more rights than what he got? 
> 
> NB John was way more violent than current John. NB John snapped at the random comment, while current John is focused on ex-Royals and Safe House. Is it because John wasn't given enough time to give in to his violent tendencies, is speculation at this point.
> 
> 
> Does he? He snapped at Remi for just briefly reminding him of Claire. The more flashback we see, the less in control he seems to be. Before his fight with Sera he looks hungover, as if he was binge drinking.
> ...


If this. If that.  That's a lot of story that doesn't actually exist that you're inventing.  I'd prefer we stick to the one that we're all reading instead on nonexistent fanfiction.  

As for why John should give them more than what he got...because that's the bare minimum of not being a psychopath?  Arlo and the others were guilty of being largely unaware of the suffering of those underneath them.  They weren't going out of their way to hurt people, but they were complicit in the system.  Once they discovered how much harm they were doing they all grew into better people.  John is fully aware of how much people are hurting, but intentionally perpetuates it because he's a sadistic piece of garbage who wants other people to suffer just because he had to.  

Who cares if Arlo never got punished as much as you want him to?  My point is that he's a better person than John is at this point in time.  If you're only interested in seeing characters you don't like suffer then I guess that's fine, but it doesn't have anything to do with them becoming a better person.  I wanted to see Arlo suffer too in the early story, but now that he's managed to change what's the point?  Sadism?  Pass.

----------


## Thales

Pretty good update.

*Spoiler*
Show


The guess that Sera can overcome John's "Anything you can do, I can do better" power by hers being effectively invisible was correct! But I think it's fairly cool how John combines the powers he's copying into novel forms, such as using Cecille's to give Arlo's barrier spikes.

But the psychological element is more interesting. John is convinced  has been convinced  that he is nothing more than who he is on his worst day. And because he needs to believe this, because he's decided it's the axiom of his life, he's stuck in a funhouse mirror world where all he can see is that people are just like how he sees himself. If he acknowledges that other people aren't all complete monsters, he'd see himself as incommensurately worse than the rest of them, and quite possibly try to kill himself if my read of the end of this episode is correct.

There is a way out. He can realize that the John who became Sera's friend, who was nice to anyone who would be nice to him, and make a spirited attempt even at befriending those who weren't (see: Sera at the start) was him too. He may have done some very bad stuff, and currently be engaged in doing more, but that's not all of who he is, and it's never too late for repentance to make a difference.

----------


## -D-

> If this. If that.


Which part do you consider dubious? The Claire part was confirmed by uru. The rest I mentioned are plainly visible in the comic.




> As for why John should give them more than what he got...because that's the bare minimum of not being a psychopath?


You say, psychopath, I say a person with lots of trauma. That you're expecting him to behave perfectly rational, is in itself irrational. 

Like you know what Keon did. You know he has recurring nightmares. You know he has flashbacks to that moment.
And you expect him to just behave like it was nothing  :Small Confused: 

(Before you counter with NB John. He also faced refusal. People weren't willing to accept a former cripple was now stronger than them.
He probably thought that being powerful will earn him some kind of gratitude from others, but it didn't. If anything, he just earned scorn from higher tiers.
And he did get angry, I'm not excusing that. 
But keep in mind, in unO world threats of violence and outright murder of low tiers by mid-tiers is overlooked.
But it was obvious no one was helping him adjust. Claire did nag, but how would Claire's words help him navigate the world of high tiers? They wouldn't.)




> Arlo and the others were guilty of being largely unaware of the suffering of those underneath them.


Let's be honest. Arlo didn't care. If none of his high-tier friends were targeted he wouldn't give a flying ****. 

Even now, he gives little to no flying **** about those below him. Name one low-tier person he's friends with. Not best friends, but like can hang out.




> Once they discovered how much harm they were doing they all grew into better people.


By them, you mean Remi? Isen doesn't care too much, and Blyke cared when it involved Sera or when the threat of Joker was a real problem. 

Arlo joined Safe House for good, ONLY after he heard from Kayden, that Authorities killed Rei (which was obvious several hundred of chapters before).




> John is fully aware of how much people are hurting, but intentionally perpetuates it because he's a sadistic piece of garbage who wants other people to suffer just because he had to.


John didn't know, that Joker was going to be a thing. 
He just wanted the hierarchy destroyed, to prevent people from ganging up on Sera and to get back at Arlo.
It's wasn't a great plan, but it somewhat worked. It backfired spectacularly, but hey, mid-tiers were now jumping on low-tiers one at a time. Progress!




> My point is that he's a better person than John is at this point in time.


I doubt that. The difference between John and Arlo is that Arlo had friends all along. Remove all Arlo's friends, and he's no different than John. Albeit with a slightly better temper.

Let's make a parallel that's not politically motivated:
- A rich man invests the money wisely and makes lots of money in retirement.
- A poor man, gets money on the lottery and squanders it.

Who's the better person? Is it the rich man that knew the system and was thus in a better position to use it for his gain?
Or the poor man that was born into a mindset that is going to put him at odds with the system?

The only way to know is to put a rich man in a poor man's position.

----------


## Douglas

> The guess that Sera can overcome John's "Anything you can do, I can do better" power by hers being effectively invisible was correct! But I think it's fairly cool how John combines the powers he's copying into novel forms, such as using Cecille's to give Arlo's barrier spikes.


I'm actually not sure that's the reason John hasn't copied Seraphina's ability. As I recall, it's been established that he can only copy four abilities at a time, and he currently has abilities from Cecile, Zeke, Remi, and Arlo, so he's at that limit. To copy Seraphina, he'd have to replace one of them, and swapping out a power without waiting for it to expire is something he's never been shown as able to do.

----------


## -D-

> I'm actually not sure that's the reason John hasn't copied Seraphina's ability. As I recall, it's been established that he can only copy four abilities at a time, and he currently has abilities from Cecile, Zeke, Remi, and Arlo, so he's at that limit. To copy Seraphina, he'd have to replace one of them, and swapping out a power without waiting for it to expire is something he's never been shown as able to do.


It wasn't specified how the replacement works. It's possible he needs to discard all to get her ability, and that in his opinion isn't worth the trade-off. Her ability is complex and harder to copy.

----------


## Kantaki

John's power looks pretty cool here, in a evil overlord final boss kinda way. :Small Cool: 
You know, if you ignore the entire context. :Small Amused: 




> Pretty good update.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> The guess that Sera can overcome John's "Anything you can do, I can do better" power by hers being effectively invisible was correct! But I think it's fairly cool how John combines the powers he's copying into novel forms, such as using Cecille's to give Arlo's barrier spikes.
> 
> But the psychological element is more interesting. John is convinced  has been convinced  that he is nothing more than who he is on his worst day. And because he needs to believe this, because he's decided it's the axiom of his life, he's stuck in a funhouse mirror world where all he can see is that people are just like how he sees himself. If he acknowledges that other people aren't all complete monsters, he'd see himself as incommensurately worse than the rest of them, and quite possibly try to kill himself if my read of the end of this episode is correct.
> ...


Always loved that speech.
And I think it's something John really needs to hear.
Unfortunately I don't know if he _can_.

I mean, obviously he can. Hear the words that is.
But I doubt they'd truly reach him, that he would could understand them as he is now.

Well, I guess the first step is to crack some of those barriers John build around himself. Both the literal and the figurative ones. Getting through the former is probably the _easy_ task though.

----------


## -D-

I don't know who said it, but they nailed it - John needs someone strong enough to overpower his defenses, and talk some senses into him.

On a lighter note.
*Here's my favorite piece of unOrdinary fanart.*

----------


## Kantaki

> snip


So cute... :Small Red Face:

----------


## Taevyr

> snip


Gods, that's adorable.

----------


## Thales

*Spoiler*
Show

While this does seem to be being resolved a bit more easily than I buy with how bad John had gotten, I'm glad he's getting out of the school for now. And I think it's right that he understands that having a realization doesn't mean he's healed  just that he can start the process.

Also interesting that the school nurse is being poached by the power-stealing organization. And whatever they did to Sera, it's fairly striking that their best attempt to undo it still has considerable side effects.

----------


## TeChameleon

So, I discovered UnOrdinary a few days ago, devoured it, and... eesh, what a ride.  It's hard not to feel a fair bit of sympathy for John- he's had a painfully rough go of it.

*Spoiler*
Show

Going to be interesting to see where the larger plot threads go now; Spectre (the power-stealing organization) is about as organized as a sack of cats, which does not bode well for the maybe-good-guys, Ember is still happily performing... state-sponsored domestic terrorism, I guess?.. and the rest of their society seems rather badly unstable.  I'm honestly curious as to whether or not there's been any worldbuilding for the non-urban areas of the UnOrdinary world; is it basically a feudal hierarchy out in the rural areas?  Because the food has to come from somewhere; I don't care if you can throw buses with your mind, if nobody's growing food, your life is going to suck.  Briefly.

----------


## Anteros

*Spoiler*
Show

As much as I'm glad that John's subplot is finally going somewhere, I'm not convinced the other aspects of the plot are strong enough to carry a story. John's descent has been the main plot of the story, and while I'm sure the author intends to resolve it and move on to the "bigger" issues, those plot points are so nebulous and poorly developed I'm not sure they can hold my interest.

----------


## -D-

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> As much as I'm glad that John's subplot is finally going somewhere, I'm not convinced the other aspects of the plot are strong enough to carry a story. John's descent has been the main plot of the story, and while I'm sure the author intends to resolve it and move on to the "bigger" issues, those plot points are so nebulous and poorly developed I'm not sure they can hold my interest.


*Spoiler: I agree*
Show


The worldbuilding has been rather poor. I'm not convinced there is an actual world outside of Wellston.

And the option available to explore are:
A) how the Royals and how they deal with John's leaving Wellston and/or Sera being left in coma,
B) follow John around so he can be the Sorry-John (which is boring IMO)

I guess, John leaving could magically solve all Wellston's problems, but that doesn't seem plausible.

----------


## Typewriter

I think the plot could take an interesting turn with John leaving. The school might try to go back to normal with certain people (Zeke) attempting to reinforce the hierarchy. The school might try to go back to the normal hierarchy as its familiar but at this point the entire 'old' hierarchy no longer supports that - but will that last? If Zeke tries to become 'boss' then in order to stop him someone will have to flex on him... which is just the hierarchy again - the strongest makes the rules. I could see a lot of conflict between the cast as they try to come to terms with all of this stuff and the school tries to find its footing again. Hell, maybe Zeke will even get support from Ember because they're trying to enforce the hierarchy and restore 'order' and he gets a boost or two - then when **** is hitting the fan John will show back up and see his 'enemies' defending his ideals and help them.

----------


## TeChameleon

Hmm...

The writing has consistently been fairly good; I think that the author is talented enough to keep the story going now that the 'main' subplot has been at least partially resolved.  There's still a couple of major subplots rolling along that the various characters have touched upon, and now would probably be the time to bring them gradually into the larger world around them, especially as Arlo is graduating (comic-book-time) 'soon'.

*Spoiler*
Show

I'm also curious as to how the Headmaster plans to move things along- he's clearly got his own agenda, and it seems to be reform-oriented... and for that matter, how he came into his position in the first place, as there was a woman as headmaster only a few years previously.

I'm also wondering if Sera's family has any connection to Spectre- beyond her sister being a member, of course- since the attack that depowered her happened suspiciously close to her lipping off at her mother.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic(s)

Ah, always nice to meet old friends.
Whom you hospitalised brutally. :Small Amused: 

But John probably needed that talk.
Especially the truth about Claire.
Not that he wants to hear it.

Well, what he really needs is someone fixing that mess Keon made in his head. Because otherwise he's gonna have a hard time moving on from his worst day.
Which is probably by design.

Also, I absolutely love the comments. :Small Big Grin: 
One photo of John's dad with the back of some girl behind them and everyone goes "Oh, there's John's mom!" John's mother had white hair!".
I mean, they're probably right, but it's still amusing.

----------


## Thales

Interesting how the pacing has changed. I think I prefer this over having John exit the story and return healed. It makes it easier for him to be a protagonist again, moves him as a character back closer to the center, and feels more realistic. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some important clue to the larger threats that he comes across here, which is a touch contrived, but it's not bad storytelling. He still needs to figure out the stuff around Keon; I hope he can open up about that somewhat at some point.

----------


## -D-

> Interesting how the pacing has changed. I think I prefer this over having John exit the story and return healed. It makes it easier for him to be a protagonist again, moves him as a character back closer to the center, and feels more realistic.


You know what is realistic? Weather reports.It also makes for a boring ass read. 

Like everything is a foregone conclusion so what is the point of seeing exact details of how it plays out?

Also next week is season finale according to uru.

----------


## Thales

> You know what is realistic? Weather reports.It also makes for a boring ass read.


I would object if this were the plan for the next few months, but as you say, it probably isn't. Plus, it serves other purposes in the narrative.

----------


## TeChameleon

> You know what is realistic? Weather reports.It also makes for a boring ass read. 
> 
> Like everything is a foregone conclusion so what is the point of seeing exact details of how it plays out?
> 
> Also next week is season finale according to uru.


... eh, gotta disagree with you on this being boring.  Seeing John's development as a character is (at least for me) kind of the point of this story, and just because nothing's exploding right now doesn't mean that the story isn't progressing.  Colour me actually somewhat impressed that the author is willing to have the story follow the protagonist's emotional development as well as shonen power curve.

----------


## Kantaki

Well, John's definitely making progress.
I mean yeah, he still was going to punch those clowns until they can work as fertilizer, but he did let Adrion stop him.
Also, those two kinda deserved a beating.

----------


## Douglas

> Well, John's definitely making progress.
> I mean yeah, he still was going to punch those clowns until they can work as fertilizer, but he did let Adrion stop him.
> Also, those two kinda deserved a beating.


Yeah, even just _allowing someone to stop him_ is a major step forward for him. Before Seraphina broke through to him, whether recently at Wellston or back at New Bostin, his response to that would have been either coldly dismissive while continuing the beating, or beating up the person who tried to stop him too.

----------


## -D-

> Well, John's definitely making progress.
> I mean yeah, he still was going to punch those clowns until they can work as fertilizer, but he did let Adrion stop him.
> Also, those two kinda deserved a beating.


Yeah, but on the other side, this is essentially a given. And is boring to read.

I now realize why manga/manhwas utilize timeskip, and honestly, it's better than this meandering plot.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

*Spoiler*
Show

Good news: John's back in school.
Better news: Interesting times ahead.
Bad news: Mid-season break.

Also, Arlo has gotten seriously chill. :Small Big Grin: 

Also also, his Aunt is in fact that Volcan chick.
Big surprise, I know. I was still kinda hoping for a red herring since Arlo described her power as a variation of his. Of course with the booster giving more control and more oomph using burning claws to hide your power is actually fiery shields would be possible.
Probably a good idea too, not to have that obvious a connection between the drug dealer and the government employee.

Actually what's the point of the whole operation?
Can't be testing, there's better ways for that.
Is it to lure out potential vigilantes?
You know, by giving them a reason.
Like drugging some angry guy and letting them rampage playing petty tyrant completely unopposed by the authorities.

Because while pointlessly evil and hilariously counterproductive in the long term that sounds like a thing the clowns who came up with John's "rehabilitation" would do.

----------


## Krym

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Actually what's the point of the whole operation?
> Can't be testing, there's better ways for that.
> Is it to lure out potential vigilantes?
> You know, by giving them a reason.
> Like drugging some angry guy and letting them rampage playing petty tyrant completely unopposed by the authorities.


Why not both?
Refine and improve while luring them out at the same time? Sounds pretty good to me.
It could also be for propaganda purposes, making the low-tier areas seem dangerous so no sympathy is directed their way.

----------


## Thales

The comic is back from its hiatus, and seems to be onto its next arc. John is still definitely not mentally healthy, but he's in a better place than he was. The school seems to be operating pretty well, but we're going to be getting more of a look at at least one of the secret organizations messing around with powers.

----------


## Taevyr

> The comic is back from its hiatus, and seems to be onto its next arc. John is still definitely not mentally healthy, but he's in a better place than he was. The school seems to be operating pretty well, but we're going to be getting more of a look at at least one of the secret organizations messing around with powers.


I like that John's mindset here seems to be "I'll just steer clear of all the hierarchy and safehouse stuff and such, like I did before". It's a lot more realistic in terms of his personal development than how many series have a heel/face-turn just immediately do better: he's essentially back to his original "stay outside the system as much as possible" self, except it's muddled because he obviously isn't seen as a cripple anymore. Might make for a slower story, but uru-chan's already shown she has a great handle on the characters' development.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Poor Arlo. Everyone's Sera and John trying to involve him in their respective troubles. :Small Big Grin: 
Remi cutting short the game of hot potato the two idiots were starting with the King position was great though.
Not sure Blyke will appreciate it, considering his precedessor(s) drove the cart in the mud and kept going. :Small Amused:

----------


## Ninja Dragon

This new arc is pretty fun. John is back to being one of the smartest people in the cast, but nobody trusts him (for a good reason) and he still doesn't have the full picture.

So the only solution for him is to really get along with the Safe House, join the trip, and then catch the bad stuff happening when it finally does.

Sera's current behavior is pretty annoying, though. I hate when the plot depends on characters not communicating.

----------


## Kantaki

Yeah, while I get Sera's reasoning this sort of secret keeping tends to look like pointless drama to me.
Oh well, at least John doesn't the "jump to the worst possible conclusion and run with it" thing.
Thank the character development.

Also, Cecile and Isen continuing the game of hot potato with the "Jack" position is great.
As is Isen giving in because the only alternative is Zeke. :Small Big Grin: 

Who appropriately enough is only one letter away from being a tick. :Small Amused:

----------


## -D-

> Yeah, while I get Sera's reasoning this sort of secret keeping tends to look like pointless drama to me.
> Oh well, at least John doesn't the "jump to the worst possible conclusion and run with it" thing.
> Thank the character development.


Yeah, it's forced I dislike how John goes from dumbest man alive to instantly-figuring-out-everything. I mean he was angry, but anger doesn't reduce the IQ that much.

Last season John was forced to hold the idiot ball, now it seems it rest of the cast time to babysit the IQ lowering device.

*Spoiler: Latest Fastpass*
Show

Also, really Arlo, John who singlehandedly stopped a car and beat up several people isn't going to help? He's one of few reasons Sera wasn't kidnapped in season 1. If you are splitting your forces to keep Remi/Blyke, he could be the Ace up your sleeve.

Here's to hoping John goes camping somehow and saves the day for once. Even if not through official channels.

----------


## Anteros

I tried to pick it back up and just found myself skimming chapters.  They need to do more to make John's redemption feel earned.  He was truly despicable before.  Simply not assaulting people for a bit is not enough.  I don't have the fastpass, so maybe that's coming.  

I think it's time to stop being cryptic about the overarching plot if there's going to be one.  Being cryptic is a poor replacement for actual plot, and it's already gone on far too long.  Without John's story being there to prop up the comic everything feels rather pointless.

----------


## -D-

> They need to do more to make John's redemption feel earned.  He was truly despicable before.  Simply not assaulting people for a bit is not enough.  I don't have the fastpass, so maybe that's coming.


That's what is happening. Albeit very slowly.

Safe house picnic, is essentially John's redemption arc.

It's good to remember, that assaulting lower ranked in unO is not just normal. But encouraged.

As long as local healers aren't complaining.

----------


## Ninja Dragon

> I tried to pick it back up and just found myself skimming chapters.  They need to do more to make John's redemption feel earned.  He was truly despicable before.  Simply not assaulting people for a bit is not enough.  I don't have the fastpass, so maybe that's coming.  
> 
> I think it's time to stop being cryptic about the overarching plot if there's going to be one.  Being cryptic is a poor replacement for actual plot, and it's already gone on far too long.  Without John's story being there to prop up the comic everything feels rather pointless.


I don't think anyone in the Wellston cast is redeeming John except for Sera, and she had a headstart since she started digging into his past long ago.

Possible fastpass spoilers:

*Spoiler*
Show

Remi is giving him a chance, but being idealistic is her whole character, and she's still waiting for John to prove himself first. Meanwhile, Blyke and Arlo won't even give him the time of the day.

----------


## Anteros

> I don't think anyone in the Wellston cast is redeeming John except for Sera, and she had a headstart since she started digging into his past long ago.
> 
> Possible fastpass spoilers:
> 
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Remi is giving him a chance, but being idealistic is her whole character, and she's still waiting for John to prove himself first. Meanwhile, Blyke and Arlo won't even give him the time of the day.


I meant he has to do more to redeem himself to me as a reader before I reinvest in the character.  I do not like John.  I do not care about his struggles or his life.  He has been such a terrible person for so long, that it will take quite a bit of growth to get me to care.  He's the worst character of the story, and if they're going to start centering the plot from his view again instead of the ensemble we were getting before, he's going to have to do quite a bit in a hurry to make himself more likable.

----------


## Ninja Dragon

> I meant he has to do more to redeem himself to me as a reader before I reinvest in the character.  I do not like John.  I do not care about his struggles or his life.  He has been such a terrible person for so long, that it will take quite a bit of growth to get me to care.  He's the worst character of the story, and if they're going to start centering the plot from his view again instead of the ensemble we were getting before, he's going to have to do quite a bit in a hurry to make himself more likable.


You are entitled to feeling how you want, but I don't think the comic itself is abandoning the focus on John, nor it is accelerating his redemption so he stops having his character flaws overnight. It seems to me the goal was always to portray John as a realistic person with mental disease. They gave him a timeskip of a few weeks away from Wellston so some of the more painful parts of the recovery are gone, but he is still a broken person trying to find his way. 

And if you don't enjoy watching that, then I dunno, that's the focus of the comic. Not the vigilante plot, as much as the first few chapters may have hinted to it. Even when that comes back to focus, it will likely be used be used as a vehicle for John's arc, which seems to be the current direction (John having to learn to control himself so he can protect Sera from Spectre). 

I think when John fully recovers, the comic will probably end soon after. It's the John Therapy Comic all the way through.

----------


## Anteros

> You are entitled to feeling how you want, but I don't think the comic itself is abandoning the focus on John, nor it is accelerating his redemption so he stops having his character flaws overnight. It seems to me the goal was always to portray John as a realistic person with mental disease. They gave him a timeskip of a few weeks away from Wellston so some of the more painful parts of the recovery are gone, but he is still a broken person trying to find his way. 
> 
> And if you don't enjoy watching that, then I dunno, that's the focus of the comic. Not the vigilante plot, as much as the first few chapters may have hinted to it. Even when that comes back to focus, it will likely be used be used as a vehicle for John's arc, which seems to be the current direction (John having to learn to control himself so he can protect Sera from Spectre). 
> 
> I think when John fully recovers, the comic will probably end soon after. It's the John Therapy Comic all the way through.


At no point did I say I wanted the character to stop having flaws overnight.  Please don't put words in my mouth.  However, the comic has to at least make John sympathetic enough for me to care about his progress.  Right now I don't.

----------


## -D-

> At no point did I say I wanted the character to stop having flaws overnight.  Please don't put words in my mouth.  However, the comic has to at least make John sympathetic enough for me to care about his progress.  Right now I don't.


Seems bit lopsided. John ain't no saint, but the rest of the world is just as messed up as he is.
He's a ****ty product of a ****ty world.

----------


## Anteros

> Seems bit lopsided. John ain't no saint, but the rest of the world is just as messed up as he is.
> He's a ****ty product of a ****ty world.


The story definitely started out that way.  The other characters have all grown though.  Even Arlo, who I originally hated, has become a mature and reasonably good person.  John's progress has been the other way.  It makes sense for the story, but it does not make him a sympathetic character when the rest of the cast is all growing up and becoming better people while he's throwing temper tantrums about no one liking him and crippling people in the process.  

Like I said, I don't have the fastpass so maybe this is coming...but I've yet to see him show actual remorse for his actions.  He's realized that not everyone is always working against him, and he's realized that he can't just beat everyone into submission....but actual remorse for the terrible things he did?  Still waiting.  Even during his current redemption arc, he's very self centered.  He cares more about his own issues and how it effects his relationships and his own power than the hurt that he caused.  He is still not a good person.  Maybe he'll get there.  Maybe.

----------


## Typewriter

> The story definitely started out that way.  The other characters have all grown though.  Even Arlo, who I originally hated, has become a mature and reasonably good person.  John's progress has been the other way.  It makes sense for the story, but it does not make him a sympathetic character when the rest of the cast is all growing up and becoming better people while he's throwing temper tantrums about no one liking him and crippling people in the process.


So, John is a victim of bullying all his life. As a result of this he becomes a villain. Once he became a villain some of the people who used to bully him started to become better people. John is struggling to accept that his lifetime of conditioning to believe that everyone is a bully is false but he is trying to do so. And you sympathize with the people who drove him to this point but not him.

----------


## Anteros

> So, John is a victim of bullying all his life. As a result of this he becomes a villain. Once he became a villain some of the people who used to bully him started to become better people. John is struggling to accept that his lifetime of conditioning to believe that everyone is a bully is false but he is trying to do so. And you sympathize with the people who drove him to this point but not him.


Yes, I generally sympathize with good people and not bad ones.  What's the point in holding a grudge against someone who has already changed for the better?  Besides, the vast majority of people John tortured had nothing to do with bullying John.  If he just went after people who tortured him it would be more understandable.  I can sympathize with him not liking Arlo or Zeke or other people who attacked him and Sera.  Most of the high tiers just went about their own business and ignored the low tiers though.  Some characters like Blyke have been fairly sympathetic from the start, only fighting people on their level, or even protecting lower tiers when they see bullying, but John still went after them.   He even attacked Sera when she tried to talk him down.

----------


## Taevyr

I've been in a similar place to John back in High School: when you make a click where you actually strike back at the bullies, it can be pretty damn attractive to led that long-simmering powerless rage spill out at everyone who didn't do anything because "they let it happen and are thus part of the problem". 

That's quite understandable, but it doesn't justify sh*t. It only makes you a key part of the problem as well, and keeps the entire messed up cycle going. The realism of the situation is one of the things I'm enjoying yhe most about the series: John's not healed or anything, he's essentially back to his original state of "keep my head down and ignore the system as much as possible", unwilling to even try to integrate into the improved Wellston. And that's quite understandable: he's been burned quite a few times and feels he doesn't deserve it either. But the high-tiers have been busy making amends for their mistakes, he should do the same... but probably only as soon as his mental state's healthy enough for it to be genuine.

Which I guess won't happen quickly, as his sole motivation atm is "look out for Sera", not "try and help out Wellston". Friction's bound to come in there.

----------


## Anteros

Skimmed back through some of the earlier comics today.  I actually enjoyed John's attempts at befriending Arlo back at the beginning of the comic.  I wonder if we'll get more of that.

----------


## Ninja Dragon

Personally I'm on the camp that agrees John has been a complete ****bag for about half the comic's run, and yet I have enjoyed watching it all unfold. It's a psychological story, and psychology is messy.

And I'm not comfortable with labeling 3-dimensional characters like that as "good" or "bad", either. John has been more bad than good before, but that changes from time to time. Right now, John is easily a better person than Arlo or Sera. 

Neither I like to position myself in the Team Royal or Team John camps that seem to make up most of the UnO fandom. I think John's points have been mostly right even if his reaction to them wasn't, just like I think the royals turning into better people is commendable and John is wrong for not recognizing that. Lately it's like lot of the fandom seems to think you have to pick a side and then refuse to acknowledge anything good the other side ever does.




> I've been in a similar place to John back in High School: when you make a click where you actually strike back at the bullies, it can be pretty damn attractive to led that long-simmering powerless rage spill out at everyone who didn't do anything because "they let it happen and are thus part of the problem". 
> 
> That's quite understandable, but it doesn't justify sh*t. It only makes you a key part of the problem as well, and keeps the entire messed up cycle going. The realism of the situation is one of the things I'm enjoying yhe most about the series: John's not healed or anything, he's essentially back to his original state of "keep my head down and ignore the system as much as possible", unwilling to even try to integrate into the improved Wellston. And that's quite understandable: he's been burned quite a few times and feels he doesn't deserve it either. But the high-tiers have been busy making amends for their mistakes, he should do the same... but probably only as soon as his mental state's healthy enough for it to be genuine.
> 
> Which I guess won't happen quickly, as his sole motivation atm is "look out for Sera", not "try and help out Wellston". Friction's bound to come in there.


Imo the issue is John doesn't have connections with anyone but Sera. Everyone is a former enemy he's just trying to avoid. Him joining the Safe House could be a fix for that, if John stops being so anti-social. I was hoping Sera could help him break the ice with people, but she's busy with Spectre stuff, and John isn't social enough to do that himself, so it's a stalemate.

I suspect the bonds will start to form when John goes to the trip and he inevitably has to fight to protect other students, or vice-versa.  The latest chapter is a hint to that.

----------


## Typewriter

> Yes, I generally sympathize with good people and not bad ones.  What's the point in holding a grudge against someone who has already changed for the better?  Besides, the vast majority of people John tortured had nothing to do with bullying John.  If he just went after people who tortured him it would be more understandable.  I can sympathize with him not liking Arlo or Zeke or other people who attacked him and Sera.  Most of the high tiers just went about their own business and ignored the low tiers though.  Some characters like Blyke have been fairly sympathetic from the start, only fighting people on their level, or even protecting lower tiers when they see bullying, but John still went after them.   He even attacked Sera when she tried to talk him down.


I get what you're saying but my point is that I don't understand how that translates into an expectation of the comic. No characters are ever allowed to be wrong? John didn't lash out against people he thought were good guys - he was lashing out at 'the enemy' and it just so happens that he was wrong about who that was. We're talking about a character who has severe paranoia and PTSD from a lifetime of abuse at the hands of nearly everyone he has ever met and you don't think he deserves sympathy because he hasn't just... what - gotten over it fast enough?

----------


## Anteros

> I get what you're saying but my point is that I don't understand how that translates into an expectation of the comic. No characters are ever allowed to be wrong? John didn't lash out against people he thought were good guys - he was lashing out at 'the enemy' and it just so happens that he was wrong about who that was. We're talking about a character who has severe paranoia and PTSD from a lifetime of abuse at the hands of nearly everyone he has ever met and you don't think he deserves sympathy because he hasn't just... what - gotten over it fast enough?


Characters can be wrong and still be sympathetic, or they can be wrong and not be intended to by sympathetic.  John isn't either.  He's wrong and not sympathetic, but the author still wants you to sympathize with him.  And he didn't lash out at the "enemy" he lashed out at everyone because he was a whiny manchild who got angry every time he didn't get his way and didn't understand that his own actions have consequences.  

We're not outside John's head.  We have his viewpoint.  We KNOW he doesn't really feel regret for hurting people.  He doesn't like the consequences of his actions, which he's finally realized exist.  He doesn't like being ostracized or being feared.  He's yet to actually express regret for hurting people, even to himself.  

And "a lifetime of abuse at the hands of nearly everyone he ever met"?  John has been the abuser just as often as he has the abused.  Per Claire they got beaten up "occasionally" before John became a monster. 
 You know who else that happened to?  Every other character in the story except Sera and maybe Arlo.  

Yeah, the point of the story is that they live in a broken society that normalizes fighting and hurting others.  The other characters still managed to live in it and not become psychopaths.  You can't spend 100 chapters showing me that someone is a terrible person, and expect me to immediately sympathize with them afterwards.  Especially when they're not even really showing regret for what they did.  It's not been that long yet, so maybe we will get there.  I think I'll read the bonus chapters and see if my opinion changes any.

Edit:  Ok so I read the bonus chapters:  *Spoiler*
Show

Standing up for those kids to  Zeke without losing his **** is a big step in the right direction, so that's something.  It's still frustrating how he won't just apologize for his actions, even when they're thrown in his face by Blyke or the safe house members.  A simple "I was wrong and I'm trying to be better" would go so far.

----------


## Douglas

> And he didn't lash out at the "enemy" he lashed out at everyone because he was a whiny manchild who got angry every time he didn't get his way and didn't understand that his own actions have consequences.


He lashed out at everyone because he mistakenly believed that everyone was "the enemy".




> We're not outside John's head. We have his viewpoint. We KNOW he doesn't really feel regret for hurting people. He doesn't like the consequences of his actions, which he's finally realized exist. He doesn't like being ostracized or being feared. He's yet to actually express regret for hurting people, even to himself.


Yes, he has expressed regret. See his internal reflections in the fight with Sera, here.

"I'm a monster."
"Nothing I do will ever make up for what I've done!"

Fighting a mental image of his "monster" self.

"I'm still unable to control myself..."
"And I still hurt a lot of people."

And what he says to Seraphina after she breaks through.

----------


## Anteros

> He lashed out at everyone because he mistakenly believed that everyone was "the enemy".
> 
> 
> Yes, he has expressed regret. See his internal reflections in the fight with Sera, here.
> 
> "I'm a monster."
> "Nothing I do will ever make up for what I've done!"
> 
> Fighting a mental image of his "monster" self.
> ...


I originally read that scene as John having those thoughts subconsciously, but not accepting them.  Thus the whole "fighting with himself" metaphor that was going on.  Maybe you're right though.  My interpretation of the scene was probably the least charitable.  

I'm still waiting on him to apologize, but I guess there wouldn't be much of a story if the characters suddenly started communicating with each other.

----------


## Ninja Dragon

I'm fine with John not apologizing if he can just form new bonds with everyone and start over, tbh.

John's dispute with the other students is one where both sides did horrible stuff and acknowledging that without fighting again would also be difficult. If both sides are willing to let bygones be bygones, it's good enough.

Being right is overrated. Finding a compromise even if you think the other side is wrong is awesome.

----------


## Thales

Huh, John is actually learning. Still struggling with his memories and instincts, but he's able to do the right thing for the right reason, at least sometimes. Still rather paranoid and controlling, but hopefully he can improve eventually there too?

----------


## Douglas

> Huh, John is actually learning. Still struggling with his memories and instincts, but he's able to do the right thing for the right reason, at least sometimes. Still rather paranoid and controlling, but hopefully he can improve eventually there too?


Yeah, this was a very nice scene to read. He intervened in a fight that was seriously pissing him off, and he intentionally used _precisely_ the appropriate level of force to do it - which in this case happened to be a stern angry voice and nothing more, because Zeke knows all too well how horrifically badly actually fighting him could go.

----------


## Thales

*Spoiler*
Show

Okay, I'm glad John tagging along is being discovered immediately by the main cast rather than being dragged out over the course of this. Something is definitely going to go wrong here, but I'm not sure what. I doubt it'll be a replay of the attack on Seraphine, with Specter attackers besieging our protagonists, but they definitely seem to be planning something.

----------


## Taevyr

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Okay, I'm glad John tagging along is being discovered immediately by the main cast rather than being dragged out over the course of this. Something is definitely going to go wrong here, but I'm not sure what. I doubt it'll be a replay of the attack on Seraphine, with Specter attackers besieging our protagonists, but they definitely seem to be planning something.


*Spoiler*
Show

I like how Remi's reaction to seeing John following them there is essentially "I'm not gonna put any energy in this at this hour. Let's just get him a bed and we'll deal with it tomorrow". Pretty relatable.

----------


## Kantaki

Everyone gives Isen odd looks for sleeping with socks. :Small Big Grin: 
And they're right. :Small Tongue: 

Also, John and Arlo are great together. Before this story is over they'll either be best friends and/or dead by each other's hand. :Small Amused: 
Or maybe not. There will probably be a pretty entertaining team-up though.

----------


## Anteros

They do have one of the better dynamics in the comic.

Also, sleeping with socks is superior. I can position my blanket however I want without worrying about my feet getting cold.

----------


## Kantaki

Fair enough. But unless I'm freezing for whatever reason I just can't stand wearing socks (or shoes. Best part about being home? No foot-prisons. :Small Wink: )

New comic
Okay, why the flying pig did the last update get a "strong language" warning and this one didn't?  :Small Confused: 

Also, Arlo's reaction to John's typing. I feel with him.
Doubly so if it turns out John is doing it on purpose.

----------


## TeChameleon

I'm with Kantaki on the foot-prison thing... can't stand to wear 'em if I don't absolutely have to (drives my wife crazy, since I'll just wander outside barefoot in the snow if I'm just grabbing something briefly...  :Small Tongue: )

Going to be somewhat curious as to what set of abilities John is rocking for this gig... if he snagged, say, invisibility from a certain little scumbag, he's going to be rather difficult for the nasty Spectres to deal with.

... and I've gotta say, I'm rather impressed John is coping even as well as he is- he's been repeatedly brutalized, treated as a second-class (or worse) citizen for most of his life, and had his mind violated so thoroughly I'm not even sure it's exactly brainwashing anymore.  It's amazing he's as stable as he is.

*EDIT*- Also, I'm weirdly amused that the magic U-Mart hat of invisibility is still working... maybe he doesn't need to steal invisibility from... Terrence(?).

----------


## Anteros

> I'm with Kantaki on the foot-prison thing... can't stand to wear 'em if I don't absolutely have to (drives my wife crazy, since I'll just wander outside barefoot in the snow if I'm just grabbing something briefly... )
> 
> Going to be somewhat curious as to what set of abilities John is rocking for this gig... if he snagged, say, invisibility from a certain little scumbag, he's going to be rather difficult for the nasty Spectres to deal with.
> 
> ... and I've gotta say, I'm rather impressed John is coping even as well as he is- he's been repeatedly brutalized, treated as a second-class (or worse) citizen for most of his life, and had his mind violated so thoroughly I'm not even sure it's exactly brainwashing anymore.  It's amazing he's as stable as he is.
> 
> *EDIT*- Also, I'm weirdly amused that the magic U-Mart hat of invisibility is still working... maybe he doesn't need to steal invisibility from... Terrence(?).


I still don't agree with the "oh poor John" stuff.  He's been treated no worse than most other characters in the setting, and they all managed to not become psychopaths.  

I do agree that he's doing much better now.  The comic is becoming more interesting to me again now that we're getting past the constant angst.

----------


## TeChameleon

While I'll mostly agree that the other characters have had similar backgrounds to John, there is one glaring exception to the 'he's had it the same as them'- namely the intensive, government-sponsored brainwashing that brought out the 'helmet-hair' persona.

John's got some problems- he appears to have some untreated mental illness, and he needs to learn to take responsibility for his mistakes without tumbling into a destructive spiral of self-pity and -loathing, but he's a child (adolescent, whatever) in a very, very sick society, and I can't really blame him for a lot of his screwed-up-ness.

----------


## Anteros

> While I'll mostly agree that the other characters have had similar backgrounds to John, there is one glaring exception to the 'he's had it the same as them'- namely the intensive, government-sponsored brainwashing that brought out the 'helmet-hair' persona.
> 
> John's got some problems- he appears to have some untreated mental illness, and he needs to learn to take responsibility for his mistakes without tumbling into a destructive spiral of self-pity and -loathing, but he's a child (adolescent, whatever) in a very, very sick society, and I can't really blame him for a lot of his screwed-up-ness.


I mean, the "brainwashing" was just making him live through the suffering he inflicted on others.  Yeah, it clearly messed him up and gave him issues, but it's also the only reason he *stopped* being a monster for a while.  John became a monster all on his own well before any of that happened.  Obviously the growth he's having now is much healthier than the brainwashing was, but he can hardly blame that for his problems when he was acting the exact same way before it happened.

----------


## Taevyr

> I mean, the "brainwashing" was just making him live through the suffering he inflicted on others.  Yeah, it clearly messed him up and gave him issues, but it's also the only reason he *stopped* being a monster for a while.  John became a monster all on his own well before any of that happened.  Obviously the growth he's having now is much healthier than the brainwashing was, but he can hardly blame that for his problems when he was acting the exact same way before it happened.


I'd say the brainwashing was more "forced PTSD by way of forcefully reliving your bad actions while someone charms you to believe you're inherently a worthless sack of crap because of them over and over and over and over.....", which is utterly reprehensible, no matter who you'd use it on.

And in this case, particularly reprehensible, because it was used on a freaking teenager.

----------


## Anteros

> I'd say the brainwashing was more "forced PTSD by way of forcefully reliving your bad actions while someone charms you to believe you're inherently a worthless sack of crap because of them over and over and over and over.....", which is utterly reprehensible, no matter who you'd use it on.
> 
> And in this case, particularly reprehensible, because it was used on a freaking teenager.


Sure.  I absolutely agree that it's a reprehensible, cruel, and unusual punishment that shouldn't be inflicted on a teenager.  I just don't think you can use it as justification for John acting like a psycho when he was already a full blown psycho before it happened.

----------


## -D-

> Sure.  I absolutely agree that it's a reprehensible, cruel, and unusual punishment that shouldn't be inflicted on a teenager.  I just don't think you can use it as justification for John acting like a psycho when he was already a full blown psycho before it happened.


How's that hard to understand? He's like the poor guy that got suddenly rich, then wasted his newfound wealth on petty things.
He's been bottling his range/pain since school, then used his power to seek vengeance, with predictable results. No matter who he hurt he couldn't ever get satiated, a tale as old as time.

Plus, conditioning from Keon ensured he'd only use his powers in situations he's backed in a corner. In those situations, his temper takes over. Even his dad said so in last season.

----------


## TeChameleon

There's also the fact that John's 'psycho' actions were entirely in line with his society's values; those in power in his society _want_ children pointlessly beating on each other so that they come to believe that abusing those weaker than you is the only way to get what you want in life, apparently to maintain their own positions of prestige and power (I'm not sure if anybody in a position of real power has made an appearance in the comic, at least that I can recall, so their motives are largely speculation at this point).  Nobody stepped in until John started to look like a threat to the status quo.

Don't forget, the book that John's dad wrote (which, from what I remember, would be a pretty standard-issue superhero yarn in our world) was considered such a threat to their society simply because it portrayed someone strong protecting the weak that it was banned and John's dad has... I'm pretty sure an arrest warrant out for him, at the very least.

Was John behaving badly?  Heck yes.

Was John behaving in a way that has sympathetic, relatable motives behind it, as a result of horrific, societally-enshrined child abuse, glorified bullying and mental trauma (and most likely some form(s) of mental illness)?  Also heck yes.

----------


## Anteros

That's all true, but it's not really backed up with what the author shows us in the story.  Almost none of the characters in the setting actually act that way.  The only one who does is Zeke, and he's treated as if he's trash by the narrative and other characters.  The way the characters act is not consistent with what the author tells us about the setting.  Honestly, the setting has never been very internally consistent.  If it was truly "might makes right" like we're supposed to believe then John would have never been arrested, businesses wouldn't have security to prevent high tiers from acting out, principals wouldn't be stepping in to stop fights, etc.  The setting has always seemed more like an excuse to let characters act out rather than something truly fleshed out or realistic.

You can say "well, the way John acts is completely normal for the setting" but if that's not actually shown by any of the other characters acting that way then it rings hollow.  




> How's that hard to understand? He's like the poor guy that got suddenly rich, then wasted his newfound wealth on petty things.
> He's been bottling his range/pain since school, then used his power to seek vengeance, with predictable results. No matter who he hurt he couldn't ever get satiated, a tale as old as time.
> 
> Plus, conditioning from Keon ensured he'd only use his powers in situations he's backed in a corner. In those situations, his temper takes over. Even his dad said so in last season.


Understanding why someone does something doesn't make it ok.  I understand why lots of terrible people end up the way they do.

----------


## -D-

> If it was truly "might makes right" like we're supposed to believe then John would have never been arrested.


Ofc he would, might makes right is a mentality, not strict guidelines. They aren't all Klingons. Being best assassin doesn't give you right to kill the local boss.

In John's case, he would not back down when ordered by higher up. He was a powerful mad dog. So the best course of action is to defang him.




> You can say "well, the way John acts is completely normal for the setting" but if that's not actually shown by any of the other characters acting that way then it rings hollow.


None of the other characters had to discover their power as late as John did. And none of those that did, had such a potent one.




> Understanding why someone does something doesn't make it ok.  I understand why lots of terrible people end up the way they do.


John isn't that different from say Blyke.

Isolate Blyke, beat him consistently every day for years, berate him for being weak. Then give him a huge power boost, reward him for being violent, and you would see a lot of bloodshed.

Explanation: Blyke is a person that is fast to anger, and society suppressing him and rewarding him for violence is recipe for disaster. He would try to never be in position of weakness, i.e. trample everyone, and since violence is rewarded he would prefer it.

Growing in ****ty condition, becoming ****ty is the expected outcome.

----------


## Anteros

I agree that bad conditions can lead to bad people.  I just don't think you can use it as an excuse.  Also, John is a special case in other ways as well.  He's been raised from a young age to believe that society is wrong about the whole "might makes right" thing.  He's had hardships, but he's also had benefits no one else had.  The concept of protecting the weak is apparently so alien in this society that a single book about it spawned copycat criminals and was banned by the government...and John *lives with the guy who wrote that book.*

It's funny you'd pick Blyke as an example, because he's probably the best person out of the main cast.  He regularly steps up to protect other people and do the right thing, even when society raised him to believe he shouldn't, and even when it causes harm to himself.  Would he be the same as John if they had the same events happen to them?  Maybe so, but Blyke would never get himself in that situation.  When Blyke had the opportunity to grab more power, he chose to give it up and take a beating instead.  He's basically the anti-John.

----------


## -D-

> I agree that bad conditions can lead to bad people.  I just don't think you can use it as an excuse.


Look, how much difference having one true friend (Sera) made. Yeah, he was a **** to her. But she didn't hate him or abandon him at a crucial moment.

This is his redemption arc. Honestly, I feel bad for Spectre.




> Also, John is a special case in other ways as well.  He's been raised from a young age to believe that society is wrong about the whole "might makes right" thing.


By a person that only knows how the Cripples feel. As much as I admire John's dad, he doesn't have the full perspective and can't rein in John.




> lives with the guy who wrote that book.


He wrote that book to help John out of the stump he found himself after Keon.




> It's funny you'd pick Blyke as an example, because he's probably the best person out of the main cast.


That's a weird way to write Remi. Without Remi as a Moral Compass, Blyke would be a much worse person. Hell, he started vigilanting to help Remi.




> When Blyke had the opportunity to grab more power, he chose to give it up and take a beating instead.  He's basically the anti-John.


You're forgetting John took a beating for half a year just to not have to use his power.

----------


## Thales

> but he can hardly blame that for his problems when he was acting the exact same way before it happened.


I found that part to be one of the weak spots of the plotting of that arc. The circumstances of John's first tailspin were so radically different from the circumstances of this one. He didn't know he had significant power then like he did now, he hadn't had the prior experience of (what he perceived as) betrayal by his close friends, he hadn't gone through the horrible "therapy", he was living with his father, etc. And his behavior and reasoning was still basically the same!

----------


## Anteros

> That's a weird way to write Remi. Without Remi as a Moral Compass, Blyke would be a much worse person. Hell, he started vigilanting to help Remi.
> 
> 
> You're forgetting John took a beating for half a year just to not have to use his power.


Remi got him involved, but when it's time to step up it's Blyke that does so.  Protecting people at school, with the drug, being a vigilante, protecting John, and *Spoiler: bonus comic spoilers*
Show

now in the park.


John taking a beating had no altruistic elements to it at all.  He's perfectly willing to watch people pound his loved ones into the ground.  He just couldn't get past his own ptsd enough to use his powers.  John has not been a good person for the entire run of this comic.  He's just now taking his first steps to becoming one.

----------


## -D-

> Remi got him involved, but when it's time to step up it's Blyke that does so.


Blyke is also a person to cause mayhem fighting over a cake, and one to abuse less powerful if they threaten his friend.




> John taking a beating had no altruistic elements to it at all.  He's perfectly willing to watch people pound his loved ones into the ground.  He just couldn't get past his own ptsd enough to use his powers.


Of course, it did. He was trying to emulate his father (hence the hair gel). John tried to live as his father preached, this shows the limit of following Ordinary's advice. High Tiers (in general) don't want to share the cake.

Plus, John was self-aware enough to know he would abuse it given chance. 




> I found that part to be one of the weak spots of the plotting of that arc. The circumstances of John's first tailspin were so radically different from the circumstances of this one. He didn't know he had significant power then like he did now, he hadn't had the prior experience of (what he perceived as) betrayal by his close friends, he hadn't gone through the horrible "therapy", he was living with his father, etc. And his behavior and reasoning was still basically the same!


The reason circumstances repeat is that basic formula is the same - one part society ****tiness and one part John being as volatile as nitroglycerin - in a jet engine.

Why John went berserk the first time. He wanted revenge on the world that denied him so much. This alienated his friends, he thought his closest friend manipulated him from the start. He was alone and angry. And he lashed out at everyone.

Why John went berserk the second time. He wanted to not repeat previous mistakes. However, playing his demon on repeat ensured it would happen again. He kept interperting innocent things as people manipulating him. He ended up alone and angry. This time Sera reached out to him.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Wait, is Terrence _seriously_ surprised Sera doesn't trust Spectre? :Small Confused: 
Really?  :Small Annoyed: 
And "We only don't restore your powers permanently because we can't" is entirely believable, sure. 
As if you'd say anything else.

On the other hand her sister's part of Spectre, so it might actually be true. Lying about this'd just needlessly antagonise two people with good powers, one of which having inside knowledge about your group.

Also, John is great here. Sera definitely needed that distraction. Arlo's annoyance i a small price to pay. 
Sera on the other hand?
Well done on ruining John's perfect disguise.
And it was working so well...

----------


## Ninja Dragon

> That's all true, but it's not really backed up with what the author shows us in the story.  Almost none of the characters in the setting actually act that way.  The only one who does is Zeke, and he's treated as if he's trash by the narrative and other characters.  The way the characters act is not consistent with what the author tells us about the setting.  Honestly, the setting has never been very internally consistent.  If it was truly "might makes right" like we're supposed to believe then John would have never been arrested, businesses wouldn't have security to prevent high tiers from acting out, principals wouldn't be stepping in to stop fights, etc.  The setting has always seemed more like an excuse to let characters act out rather than something truly fleshed out or realistic.
> 
> You can say "well, the way John acts is completely normal for the setting" but if that's not actually shown by any of the other characters acting that way then it rings hollow.  
> 
> 
> 
> Understanding why someone does something doesn't make it ok.  I understand why lots of terrible people end up the way they do.


The comic stated that kids who discover powers late like John tend to turn out like him.

It's a systematic side effect of the society they all live in. Which is why I want the "outside of Wellston" plot to kick in so we can stop focusing on who is wrong or right between John and the royals since it's obviously the system is the big culprit here.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Ah, nothing better for reconciliation than beating the stuffing outta a bunch of jerks who have it coming.  :Small Cool: 

These two idiots are gonna fight each other as much as those hooligans, won't they?  :Small Sigh: 

 :Small Big Grin:

----------


## TeChameleon

Hah.  John's 'not so different' realization was summed up in just one brief facial expression... well, 'not so different', or 'huh, we have something important in common', at least.

And the U-Mart hat seems to retain its powers- even people who have good reason to recognize John in a hurry don't twig to it being him until he's quite close  :Small Tongue:

----------


## -D-

> These two idiots are gonna fight each other as much as those hooligans, won't they?


Why would they? They literally had the same thought.

*Spoiler: Chapter 252*
Show

 You will be surprised.

Shadow King John indeed.

----------


## Kantaki

I was thinking more "get into each other's way" and less "actively trying to kill each other".

Mind you, I think (_hope_) they can work together, however reluctantly, but it wouldn't surprise me if they don't work together _well_.
Blyke fighting the bullies while John fights them too instead of Blyke _and_ John fighting the bullies.

----------


## -D-

> I was thinking more "get into each other's way" and less "actively trying to kill each other".
> 
> Mind you, I think (_hope_) they can work together, however reluctantly, but it wouldn't surprise me if they don't work together _well_.
> Blyke fighting the bullies while John fights them too instead of Blyke _and_ John fighting the bullies.


For posterity. 
*Spoiler: 252*
Show

Actually writer took the third option.

Blyke fights them. Then John fights them. Then Arlo "fights" them.

----------


## Anteros

> For posterity. 
> *Spoiler: 252*
> Show
> 
> Actually writer took the third option.
> 
> Blyke fights them. Then John fights them. Then Arlo "fights" them.


*Spoiler*
Show

Well...more like Blyke gets cheap shotted so John backs him up, then predictably loses his **** and Arlo shuts everything down like usual.

----------


## -D-

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> Well...more like Blyke gets cheap shotted so John backs him up, then predictably loses his **** and Arlo shuts everything down like usual.


*Spoiler*
Show


It's neither John fights Blyke, nor a Blyke + John teamup, is my point.

John went for tactical/moral support, and other guys were *******s.

Anyway we see what happens if you don't properly pummel your attacker. They try to cheap shot you.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Okay, so we're still working on the "paralysing flashbacks" thing. Sorry Blyke. 

On the plus side the first power John grabbed was the healing one.
_Progress_.

Now all he needs is not to murder those clowns.
Or let them beat up him for that matter.

----------


## TeChameleon

Yeeeeah... their society has grabbed on to the whole 'strongest will rule' thing without picking up on the corollary of 'there's always a bigger fish'.  Unfortunately for John, the story has cast him in the role of said bigger fish more often than not, and he's having to grow into it.  Which isn't gonna be easy after the amount of trauma that's been dumped on his already-unstable nature.  But at the same time, he's doing his best and he _wants_ to help people, which goes a long way.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

 :Small Sigh: Are you serious? :Small Sigh: 
Trying to backstab the guy who just got stopped from outright mulching you?
There are less painful ways to commit suicide.

So those clows not only have no honour but also no brains. See also dismissing two (technically) royals from the school known for its power houses because their "hierarchy is in shambles".
I mean, it's not wrong exactly, but it doesn't mean they're somehow giving those titles out to low-rankers. 

Arlo: I should've waited a bit before shielding those morons...  :Small Annoyed:

----------


## Anteros

The last thing John needs is to go back to torturing people who can't stand up to him, even if they do deserve it in this instance.  Arlo did the right thing for everyone involved by shutting it all down.

----------


## Kantaki

> The last thing John needs is to go back to torturing people who can't stand up to him, even if they do deserve it in this instance.  Arlo did the right thing for everyone involved by shutting it all down.


Oh, no doubt about that.
But with how Arlo immediately has to save them from attacking John?
I can't say I'd have minded him being a tad slower.
Might've been a learning experience. :Small Amused: 

But yeah, for John it is better this got stopped before he might have gone to far.

----------


## Thales

Ah, we're getting a heist. And a little bit more of a look at power technology  aura sensors seem useful in this world for stopping pretty much exactly what's happening here. And it's definitely interesting that John's mother is associated with this place. What is conversion technology?

----------


## -D-

> What is conversion technology?


Remember Vulcan?

----------


## TeChameleon

Just wanted to give a quick shout-out to the backgrounds in this series, while I'm thinking of it; they're _really_ nice, and they're not something that's easy to do, even if there's some kind of shortcut in place.

Those Rowden Royals were just suicidally stupid, weren't they?  Flat-out too dumb to live.  I'm honestly surprised this society isn't straight-up Mad Max chaos.  Either there's something behind the scenes that we haven't seen yet, or the author is playing a bit fast and loose with societal development.

This heist should be interesting- wonder if it's going to be 'something goes wrong and Serafina has to be badass', 'something goes wrong and Serafina gets caught', or 'things go fine, but there's a horrible revelation'?  Or some mixture of any two or all three, I guess.

----------


## Taevyr

> Just wanted to give a quick shout-out to the backgrounds in this series, while I'm thinking of it; they're _really_ nice, and they're not something that's easy to do, even if there's some kind of shortcut in place.
> 
> Those Rowden Royals were just suicidally stupid, weren't they?  Flat-out too dumb to live.  I'm honestly surprised this society isn't straight-up Mad Max chaos.  Either there's something behind the scenes that we haven't seen yet, or the author is playing a bit fast and loose with societal development.
> 
> This heist should be interesting- wonder if it's going to be 'something goes wrong and Serafina has to be badass', 'something goes wrong and Serafina gets caught', or 'things go fine, but there's a horrible revelation'?  Or some mixture of any two or all three, I guess.


The Rowden Royals are easily explained: teens who've hardly every been forced to face consequences in their lives, and are too young to properly grasp that there *will* be things and people that are either fully out of their league or can't be bludgeoned into submission without experiencing it directly. Like a smart teen that fails to learn proper study techniques because "he'll pass anyway" and flunks out of university, or a promising athlete that doesn't see the point in being careful with his body until his knee goes bust.

----------


## Thales

And more information about John's mom and conversion technology. Changing abilities, which is presumably how Arlo's aunt had an ability other than a barrier. Are the limitations on which abilities can be converted similar to ones on John's abilities? He didn't copy Claire's future sight, and he struggled to copy Sera's too. John's mom seems to be the powerhouse he inherited his aura-related abilities from. We don't know what the deal is with her, but she's ranked 9.1 with something called "Channel Master". The document says that conversion technology only works on people with "high channel output", which Sera interprets to mean high-tiers, so maybe this means that John's mom can control the strength of people's abilities? Possibly this explains the end of today's strip?

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Well, assuming this _is_ Spectre's plan- and not, for example, rampant paranoia on our heroes part or Spectre's eviler, government backed counterpart trying something - they might actually do nothing on the mountain.

Get John to go ballistic on their pawn* (yer expendable, Terrence) to isolate him from the Wellstone kids and strike which someone with a (weak) non-combat power when he's all alone.

On the other hand, if that mission is a typical example of Spectre's competence, there might be a all out attack on the whole hiking group.

*Which is easy, honestly.

----------


## -D-

> New comic
> 
> Well, assuming this _is_ Spectre's plan- and not, for example, rampant paranoia on our heroes part or Spectre's eviler, government backed counterpart trying something - they might actually do nothing on the mountain.
> 
> Get John to go ballistic on their pawn* (yer expendable, Terrence) to isolate him from the Wellstone kids and strike which someone with a (weak) non-combat power when he's all alone.
> 
> On the other hand, if that mission is a typical example of Spectre's competence, there might be a all out attack on the whole hiking group.
> 
> *Which is easy, honestly.


Well, if I was a betting man:

- We know that Jane samples interact weirdly with power and that John fighting Sera drained Sera for a reason
- Spectre steals their tech from NXGen.

It could be that the de-powering drug might have a different effect on John than expected. It could be that presence of a Aura Manipulation inside another's body acts as a sort of blocker, i.e. prevents any other power.

However, John knows how to manipulate his aura and he is very compatible genetically, so for him it either doesn't work or maybe even empowers him, which would be a nice way to resolve the situation.

----------


## Thales

I'm pretty sure John gets affected by the power dampener too. Like Arlo, he was a lot less effective in the siege defending Sera. Then again, it's possible it's not so much that he's getting zonked by the power dampener as that he doesn't have anything strong to copy from nearby.

----------


## -D-

> I'm pretty sure John gets affected by the power dampener too. Like Arlo, he was a lot less effective in the siege defending Sera.


Sure, but this is based on ability removal being related to Jane's power, rather than the dampener.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

I don't think Arlo is comfortable with Remi carrying him off like a princess.  :Small Big Grin: 

Not much to say on the mountain battle.
The Spectre goons seem pretty ruthless. 
I'm gonna withdraw my rant* until I see what exactly the plan was.
Don't see what Spectre has to gain from this though.

*I actually had one typed up as a first, but as stupid as this seems maybe there's actually some reasonable strategy behind it.

----------


## Taevyr

> Not much to say on the mountain battle.
> The Spectre goons seem pretty ruthless. 
> I'm gonna withdraw my rant until I see what exactly the plan was.
> Don't see what Spectre has to gain from this though.


I presume the main goal is having more high-rank abilities to try and replicate, and high-rankers they might blackmail into doing their dirty work in exchange for a "cure". 

I do get the distinct impression that, considering those snipers and the others' knifework, the only reason the fighters among the students are still alive is because they don't want them dead. Which is probably the biggest advantage John, Blyke, etc. have

----------


## Kantaki

> I presume the main goal is having more high-rank abilities to try and replicate, and high-rankers they might blackmail into doing their dirty work in exchange for a "cure". 
> 
> I do get the distinct impression that, considering those snipers and the others' knifework, the only reason the fighters among the students are still alive is because they don't want them dead. Which is probably the biggest advantage John, Blyke, etc. have


See, this sounds like a bad plan*. These are Sera's friends, holding her powers hostage should be leverage enough.
This just turns assets into enemies.
Hurting the Safe House kids isn't helpful either. Even ignoring the risk of accidentially killing someone (Which, okay, comic book/ action story logic) hurting people your targets care about is unlikely to make them more cooperative.

Also, good luck keeping this a secret. On a second thought, never mind. The Authorities will probably help with that.

*I'd say the kind of plan where you loose your hat, but evidently they already did. :Small Amused:

----------


## Anteros

I believe that we've been told that there are multiple factions within the organization.  This may be a move by one of the others rather than the one belonging to Sera's sister.

----------


## -D-

Here is my wild theory.

Ability removal isn't actually removing ability. And the cure for ability removal is dampener.

I base this on Sera vision getting blurry (post restoration) after interacting with John/Jane blood sample. Plus Spectre probably stealing from NxGen. From meta standpoint it would be a dramatic twist, even if uru likes to drag story around.

How it works

Ability removal permanently adds Jane's power to target. We don't know if people can have multiple powers in one body. Even John doesn't have multiple powers, he has one that mimics others. So when you get injected with Channel master, it being stronger simply shuts down your existing power. John power is hard to manifest even for him, let alone someone used to another set their whole life.

When they get "cured" of ability removal, they instead get a damper that limits Jane's power and that allows your original power to assert itself.

Being in proximity of Channel/Aura manipulation, weakens Sera, because it starts restoring Channel master, overriding original power.

Injecting John with it, might just be biggest mistake Spectre made. Because it might turn him from 7.5 (4) -> 9.1. He has all predisposition to actually go beast mode on Spectre.

----------


## Kantaki

New comic

Wow. Those guys _are_ really committed to this, aren't they?
I mean, it's not exactly overkill, quite the opposite I suspect, but that's quite a bit of manpower.

Also, kinda inclined to agree with John here.
This stunt makes Spectre's mission statement seem kinda suspect.
You can't tell me there wasn't a way to do this without targeting the Safe House kids.

Not that those clowns have shown anything that would give me any degree of confidence in them.
And no, the fact that they're splintered in several factions only makes it worse. 

The comment section seems a tad overeager regarding the incoming violence though.

----------


## Ninja Dragon

Those comment sections are pretty bad. The one I follow had to be moderated due to a flood of racist attacks against the author.

Anyway, the fandom is melting down about John losing his powers. What do y'll think? I'm not super hyped about this development but there are about 30 different places this can lead to so I'm not super worried about it turning bad.

----------


## Taevyr

> *Spoiler: Potential spoilers*
> Show
> 
> Anyway, the fandom is melting down about John losing his powers.


So, uh, looking at the latest chapter available on webtoon for free, you really ought to tag that as a spoiler.




> Those comment sections are pretty bad. The one I follow had to be moderated due to a flood of racist attacks against the author.


Ouch, that's awful. Can't imagine why anyone who actually reads the comic would think it necessary to attack the author over race, but the idea of it just being a bunch of racists being racist against a coincidentally available target feels worse...

----------


## -D-

> Those comment sections are pretty bad. The one I follow had to be moderated due to a flood of racist attacks against the author.
> 
> Anyway, the fandom is melting down about John losing his powers. What do y'll think? I'm not super hyped about this development but there are about 30 different places this can lead to so I'm not super worried about it turning bad.


Writting my previous comment in this thread, I was like, or maybe we'll get same old story as before. Surely uru wouldn't go there. But no, it went there.

While I don't agree with racism and bullying or being angry about this. Having John go through some kind of Sera arc 2.0 feels slow and wasteful. Like we aren't stupid, we know he'll get them back somehow (same with Sera). Author is just wheel-spinning.

----------


## TeChameleon

> Writting my previous comment in this thread, I was like, or maybe we'll get same old story as before. Surely uru wouldn't go there. But no, it went there.
> 
> While I don't agree with racism and bullying or being angry about this. Having John go through some kind of Sera arc 2.0 feels slow and wasteful. Like we aren't stupid, we know he'll get them back somehow (same with Sera). Author is just wheel-spinning.


I'd have to disagree with that- I've always read this story as being about John's inner journey and growth as a person, with Spectre being a background element at most- an external source of conflict driving his growth, not a primary story focus.  John learning to accept himself, and all aspects of himself, is the core of this story, despite all the superhero trappings (at least as far as I understand it).  So a 'Sera 2.0' arc would allow us to explore John and his fractured psyche in greater depth.

... it feels like a lot of people are interpreting the core of this story as a man vs. man conflict (or maybe man vs. society), rather than the man vs. self that it feels like to me.

*EDIT*- also, uru is kind of dragging out the reveal of whether or not the power removal drug actually works on John a bit- until he tries to use his abilities again, we have no idea if anything's happened (since the drug is based on his mother's abilities, it may interact... oddly... with John's)

----------


## Anteros

> I'd have to disagree with that- I've always read this story as being about John's inner journey and growth as a person, with Spectre being a background element at most- an external source of conflict driving his growth, not a primary story focus.  John learning to accept himself, and all aspects of himself, is the core of this story, despite all the superhero trappings (at least as far as I understand it).  So a 'Sera 2.0' arc would allow us to explore John and his fractured psyche in greater depth.
> 
> ... it feels like a lot of people are interpreting the core of this story as a man vs. man conflict (or maybe man vs. society), rather than the man vs. self that it feels like to me.


Well, the problem with that interpretation is that it's pretty much resolved.  John fixed his behavior, mostly forgave himself, and the people he cared about forgave him.  There's not much interesting left to the story except the Spectre subplot.  Which I agree is weak.

----------


## -D-

> I'd have to disagree with that- I've always read this story as being about John's inner journey and growth as a person, with Spectre being a background element at most- an external source of conflict driving his growth, not a primary story focus.  John learning to accept himself, and all aspects of himself, is the core of this story


It *was*. But that **** was resolved in previous season. John accepted his powers, hell he is fine losing them. 
*Spoiler*
Show


Now he is essentially where Sera was last season. Situationally. He made a bunch of enemies, but they don't know he has no power. And then they will, and then they will take their revenge.






> *EDIT*- also, uru is kind of dragging out the reveal of whether or not the power removal drug actually works on John a bit- until he tries to use his abilities again, we have no idea if anything's happened (since the drug is based on his mother's abilities, it may interact... oddly... with John's)


*Spoiler*
Show

He doesn't have his abilities atm.

They could spontaneously return, but he'll likely make a deal with Leilah.

----------


## Kantaki

I'm absolutely cheering about Terrence getting a taste of his own medicine. :Small Big Grin: 

Seriously though, at least his faction of Spectre needs to go. And the rest isn't much better, if at all.
Just as bad as what they oppose.

At this point the Wellstone kids might just as well burn the whole mess to the bedrock and rebuild from zero.
Can't really turn out that much worse than the alternatives.

----------


## Thales

Spectre's plan here seems really bad. They've done a lot of work on opsec, and here they are with a plan that, at best, leaves a ton a witnesses (many of whom probably have well-connected families) to the organization and their dampener and pisses off a major asset. Moreover, "Terrence" didn't just come out of nowhere, so it might be possible to trace him back through whatever interactions he had to have to get registered at Wellston. With how things actually ended up going, they have quite a few agents down  and they're lucky they aren't outright killed  one fairly unique asset depowered, and several syringes of their depowering formula intact and lying around. These aren't wildly unforeseeable developments either! Sera, Arlo, and Remi didn't really help much; Spectre just didn't bring enough force.

Better plan: use Terrence to cloak sleep-touch guy, have him ambush a solitary target on their way home from school (or just spike their drink). Cloak the target too, then administer the depowering injection. Less of an elaborate setup, less risk of exposure, fewer people who get to see you. Feasible to repeat too, if you initially target folks who it's not surprising if they'd be absent for a day or so. The teleporter guy can add a significant amount of extra safety to the plan. Yes, the dampener is cool, and lets you overpower high-tiers in a fight. But straight-up fights should not be the first resort of a secret organization!

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

> Spectre's plan here seems really bad. They've done a lot of work on opsec, and here they are with a plan that, at best, leaves a ton a witnesses (many of whom probably have well-connected families) to the organization and their dampener and pisses off a major asset. Moreover, "Terrence" didn't just come out of nowhere, so it might be possible to trace him back through whatever interactions he had to have to get registered at Wellston. With how things actually ended up going, they have quite a few agents down  and they're lucky they aren't outright killed  one fairly unique asset depowered, and several syringes of their depowering formula intact and lying around. These aren't wildly unforeseeable developments either! Sera, Arlo, and Remi didn't really help much; Spectre just didn't bring enough force.
> 
> Better plan: use Terrence to cloak sleep-touch guy, have him ambush a solitary target on their way home from school (or just spike their drink). Cloak the target too, then administer the depowering injection. Less of an elaborate setup, less risk of exposure, fewer people who get to see you. Feasible to repeat too, if you initially target folks who it's not surprising if they'd be absent for a day or so. The teleporter guy can add a significant amount of extra safety to the plan. Yes, the dampener is cool, and lets you overpower high-tiers in a fight. But straight-up fights should not be the first resort of a secret organization!


Kind of makes me wonder if their plan all along was to escalate conflict with the students (or just Sera in particular). Seems like the only thing this operation was guaranteed to do was piss her off, and potentially make her lose her cool, discrediting her branch of Spectre.

Which would still be far too many resources burned for the sake of inter-organization conflict, but it is at least a believable motive.

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## Typewriter

While I don't particularly want a prolonged arc about John losing/regaining his powers or anything I will say that I think a temporary, or even feigned, experience with his powers being gone could be a world of good.

A while ago I posted saying that John can't experience change until he finds himself in a position of weakness being protected by those stronger than him. Right now he's on good terms with people but to his perspective there's no reason to believe that it's not fueled by fear. If he loses his powers (even if temporarily) or fakes having lost them to see how people react it could finally be what's needed to get John and all the other students legitimately on the same side. Not just united against a common enemy but instead actually realizing that everyone else has had a lot of issues that they'd had to work to overcome and accepting and realizing that about each other.

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## Kantaki

New comic(s) 

As much as I might dislike Terrence, he really doesn't deserve the Keon treatment.

On the plus side Sera might have some plan to deal with Spectre.
I just hope it goes beyond "shout at big sis's bosses and demand one time access to the temporary ability restoration". (for John, I guess? Or maybe herself to use her power on him.)

The school/principal being under watch is probably bad.
Though every time some official opens their mouth I wonder how this society ever worked.

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## -D-

> A while ago I posted saying that John can't experience change until he finds himself in a position of weakness being protected by those stronger than him.


Except he already did. Sera was protecting him from himself, and he mellowed out on the rest of the group. 

It feels too predictable and artificially extending the story.




> New comic(s) 
> 
> As much as I might dislike Terrence, he really doesn't deserve the Keon treatment.


I'd lie if I said I agree.

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## TeChameleon

Honestly questioning whether or not the Keon treatment will do anything to Terrence- the little weasel pretty clearly thought he was in the right all along, and from that perspective, having someone show you doing what you consider 'right' over and over isn't going to have a lot of effect.

Someone in the unOrdinary comments pointed out something rather interesting- when John tried to use his abilities... he... sort of did?  He could 'see' the blocked channels, it wasn't just 'nothing happened' like it was for others who have been hit with the power blocker.  Not sure what, if anything, that means, but it was unusual, at the very least.

And this culture is even further gone than I thought if one high school, no matter how prestigious, merits this kind of scrutiny for the students _maybe_ being taught something 'the authorities' don't like.  Then again, if one friggin' escapist book about a character whose most defining trait was that they weren't a complete douchenozzle is considered society-threatening heresy, they've got *problems*.

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## Taevyr

Yeah, nobody deserves the Keon treatment. Giving teens targeted PTSD for breaking the law isn't right under any circumstance.

And I am indeed curious what John's seeming partial retainment of his abilities means. Probably that he'll get it back eventually, at least, but it certainly has options storywise.

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## -D-

> And this culture is even further gone than I thought if one high school, no matter how prestigious, merits this kind of scrutiny for the students _maybe_ being taught something 'the authorities' don't like.  Then again, if one friggin' escapist book about a character whose most defining trait was that they weren't a complete douchenozzle is considered society-threatening heresy, they've got *problems*.


While they got problems, they banned the book after it caused a wave of vigilantism. Or that's my impression. I'm not sure why Willian published it. It was meant only to help John deal with his post-Bostin recovery.





> Yeah, nobody deserves the Keon treatment. Giving teens targeted PTSD for breaking the law isn't right under any circumstance.


Terrence is willing to take any high-power individual, cripple them (as in breaking their legs) and then rent crutches for favors. Keon mentally gimping him is karma, biting back.

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## Taevyr

> Terrence is willing to take any high-power individual, cripple them (as in breaking their legs) and then rent crutches for favors. Keon mentally gimping him is karma, biting back.


Yeah, that's one of the reasons I often dislike karma in popular culture/common conversation. Too often is it twisted to mean "an eye for an eye", when it means anything but. Hell, a comic I read somewhere parodied that very idea by having a character go "I believe in Karma, which means that whenever I do something bad to someone, they must've done something to deserve it."

But I honestly don't feel like getting in a forum discussion on "the real meaning of karma", not to mention that it skirts the boundary of discussing real-life religion.

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## Anteros

The concept of karma comes from reaping what you sow. It absolutely fits in regards to Terrance.  It's not twisted at all.

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## -D-

> Yeah, that's one of the reasons I often dislike karma in popular culture/common conversation. Too often is it twisted to mean "an eye for an eye", when it means anything but.


I obviously meant colloquially. Not in a religious sense.

The basic concept doing good, leads to good. Doing bad leads to bad.

Humans/Primates have penchant for perceived equality of treatment.

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## Kantaki

Of course he has that kind of backstory...  :Small Eek: 
I can see why Terrence would join Spectre.
Still disagreeing with their methods*, but the question isn't so much why people join but why there aren't more. 

Also, could someone hit Keon in the face please?
With something heavy. Like the moon.

And Zeke seems under some delusions John was ever his friend. Or liked him at least.

Sera's plan is gold though. The repowering is only temporary? Just steal the machine. :Small Cool:  :Small Big Grin: 

*Maybe if we had seen a deserving target or three.
Even then, the Safe House attack? Yeah,  no.
Your organisation (claims it) wants to make things better for low rankers? *Then! Don't! Target! Them!* :Small Furious:

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## -D-

> Still disagreeing with their methods*, but the question isn't so much why people join but why there aren't more.


Because authorities execute anyone that disobeys. Or they are assigned to a Ghetto we saw during Remi's vigilantism. 




> Also, could someone hit Keon in the face please?
> With something heavy. Like the moon.


Egads, you're letting him off scots free. Magnetar at the very least. Or binary black holes.

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## TeChameleon

> Egads, you're letting him off scots free. Magnetar at the very least. Or binary black holes.


Nah, thinking too small.  Just invert his power so that he's trapped in it and leave 'im.

Terrence is... more understandable, but still a horrible little weasel, and just as hypocritical as the rest of SPECTRE.

And I wonder if it's just Japan(?) that's spectacularly ****ed in this world, or if other countries are ruled by the biggest available bastards as well?  You'd think, by the law of averages if nothing else, that there'd be someone who is both incredibly powerful and benevolent _somewhere_...

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## Typewriter

This new chapter put such a huge smile on my face. Just so goofy and genuine.

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## Thales

I am definitely getting a feeling that John's dad will be the ultimate villain here. Skilled at hand-to-hand combat, strong ideals that, while admirable, are demonstrably leading some folks to actions way over the moral line, connected to the power source fueling basically all the conspiracies we've seen, close connection to the main protagonist... it fits to me.

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## -D-

> I am definitely getting a feeling that John's dad will be the ultimate villain here. Skilled at hand-to-hand combat, strong ideals that, while admirable, are demonstrably leading some folks to actions way over the moral line, connected to the power source fueling basically all the conspiracies we've seen, close connection to the main protagonist... it fits to me.


You take that back, you sonnova bitch. If William is mastermind we riot! 

Ultimate villain is the Authorities.

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## TeChameleon

Or this Orrin prick.  Managed to out-douchnozzle Terrence in, what, two appearances, when we've had almost the entire series to learn to hate Terrence?  That's kind of impressive, in an awful way.

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## Thales

More tension among Spectre!

*Spoiler*
Show

This assassin seems fairly tough. Granted, John and Sera don't have their powers, but semi-intangibility, ranged lockdown, and considerable offense seem like a pretty good skillset. Also notable that John did seem to break through the depowerer, likely because of its connection to his mother, but possibly also just because he has better intrinsic knowledge of how powers work than other victims of it.

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## Kantaki

New comic

Poor Doc. He's never getting away from those kids- especially John -and their habit to get hurt- especially John. :Small Amused:

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## TeChameleon

Hah, poor Doc indeed.  Just when he thought he was out, they pull him back in again!

Also, Kayden apparently hangs out with a Jedi  :Small Amused:

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## Kantaki

New comic

At this point Orrin is the best argument for controlling high tiers.
A power like this in the hands of that kind of person?
Very bad indeed.

Let's hope he gets a taste of his own medicine.
I'd suggest the Keon special, but Orrin might genuinely see that as a highlight reel.

Also, the offered deal is "work for us if you want your power back*".
Obviously refusal would only make Orrin murder you with someone else's bare hands, but I still want to see the faces when someone says "I don't". :Small Big Grin: 

*as long as it is useful to us.

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## TeChameleon

I'm amazed that Orrin has gotten anywhere in life, _especially_ with that ability.  The man has all the subtlety of a pie to the face, and is just as clownshoes.  Just random casual murder, and it appears to be his go-to solution for _everything_.  Wouldn't be at all surprised if people who cut him off in traffic turned up dead.

In fact... hang on, has he had any screen time at all where he's not ordering a murder?  Like, even one single appearance?

Sheesh.  Terrence was a hateable little douchenozzle, but he was a ray of freaking sunshine compared to Mr. "Murder is the only solution" over here.

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## Kantaki

Back in school Orrin was the best student in his class. :Small Cool: 
He also was the only student. :Small Tongue: 
Puzzling that. :Small Confused:  :Small Amused: 

My guess would be he dislikes High Rankers because his power only works on weaker people.

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## Thales

More information about ability conversion! I would guess that this is used by the authorities to give all of EMBER the flame claws power. Orrin says that the conversion is 75% efficient  does that mean that the person using the converter gets 75% of the donor's power level, or the donor's ability, modified to 75% of their own base power level? I would guess the latter, based on Volcan's effectiveness. (Donor should perhaps be in quotes: this is the abducted guy who got strangled.)

It's odd that in this setting, power level is something that seems to exist largely independently of ability. Like, flame claws seems like a pretty awful ability, but because its user had a high power level, she was able to overpower people with abilities that do something other than hit well at melee range. I guess the idea is that "channel" is power level, and "aura" is the nature of the ability. So John can change his own aura (and perhaps if he had channels that were further open, could change other people's auras too), and his mom can control how open people's channels are? I wonder if John's late development of his power wasn't that he took a while to figure it out, but that his mom sealed his channels for some reason?

----------


## TeChameleon

Tough to say on the 'mom sealing channels' thing- I'm pretty sure that the only info we have on her is some vague indications on how her power works and the fact that she's John's mom.  Not a lot to go on.

I'm oddly amused by the fact that a single moderately competent person with a handgun would absolutely _wreck_ something like 85-90% of the characters we've seen on panel thus far.  It's always a bit weird in settings like these where they have basically all the modern technology that the real world does... except for guns.  Avatar the Legend of Korra did similar, and it felt sort of weird there too, although I guess the Avatar would be a bit less of a big deal if someone could just shoot them.

Nice to see John growing and healing and finding things he enjoys again, and here's hoping that the crew gels together well and those that need them regain their abilities properly.

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## Kantaki

New comic

Arlo, I know the nice lady at the office told you to keep Authority information secret, but if you're gonna warn your friend _warn her properly_.
Might as well have said nothing.

John's improvised lesson though... :Small Big Grin: 
"It helps if you think about someone who ticks you off."
Absolutely murders the punching bag in demonstration.
'_Okay, that might've been a bit excessive._'
Well, at least he's aware. :Small Amused: 

I half expected Sera to step in.

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## TeChameleon

> New comic
> 
> Arlo, I know the nice lady at the office told you to keep Authority information secret, but if you're gonna warn your friend _warn her properly_.
> Might as well have said nothing.
> 
> John's improvised lesson though...
> "It helps if you think about someone who ticks you off."
> Absolutely murders the punching bag in demonstration.
> '_Okay, that might've been a bit excessive._'
> ...


Every once in a while we're reminded that for all his airs, Arlo is still just 17-ish.  And really really not very good at communication  :Small Confused: 

And with Sera's expression?  I half expected her to _join_ in.

----------


## Thales

This week's comic has another flare of power from John, and he specifically compares it to how it was when he was first discovering his power. Sera specifies that he might have some resistance to the drug. Given that the drug seems to be somehow be derived from his mother, this seems to lend some credence to the idea that his mother suppressed his power for some reason.

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## TeChameleon

Aw... kinda happy that Doc/Darren is finding some happiness.  And it looks like, as usual, attempts to keep well-meaning friends from getting involved by not telling them things is going to result in them getting involved blindly and at cross-purposes  :Small Confused:

----------

