# Forum > Gaming > Gaming (Other) >  The Elder Scrolls XVIII: "What's So Civil About War, Anyway?"

## Mark Hall

Welcome, one and all, to the latest thread for us to discuss, debate, and rag on our favorite series of Bethesda RPGs!


Previous threads:
Who's excited for Skyrim?Skyrim II: A Dragon A Day Keeps The Draugr At Bay.Skyrim III: Get rich selling protective knee gear!Skyrim IV: OblivionSkyrim V: SkyrimSkyrim Thread VI: Dov Riders, AWAY!The Elder Scrolls VII: Do you believe in mod?The Elder Scrolls: By the VIII DivinesIt's the IX Divines You milk drinker!The Elder Scrolls X:  Thalmor Or LessWouldn't Want to Be ElsweyerTwelve Worlds of CreationThe Elder Scrolls XIII: Born Under a Certain SignThe Elder Scrolls XIV: Good? Bad? I'm the one with the Thu'um!The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um stick!The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your BurdensThe Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

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Have at it!

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## Rater202

You know what I want? I want ES6 to have it so that there's a degree of overlap in differant storylines.

Like, in Skyrim in Markarth there's the whole bit where the corrupt cops frame you for the murders you were looking into and send you to cidna Mine...

...Even if you're completed the Thieves Guild questline and almost all the guards in every hold are on the Guild's, and thus your, payroll. Or if you're a Thane in that hold. Or if you've completed the Civil War for the Storm Cloaks and the only reason they're there is because they're Storm Cloaks themselves.

By all means, under those circumstances, you should have options other than to get arrested and then choose whether you want to side with the Forsworn or the Silverbloods.

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## Resileaf

> ...Even if you're completed the Thieves Guild questline and almost all the guards in every hold are on the Guild's, and thus your, payroll. Or if you're a Thane in that hold. Or if you've completed the Civil War for the Storm Cloaks and the only reason they're there is because they're Storm Cloaks themselves.
> 
> By all means, under those circumstances, you should have options other than to get arrested and then choose whether you want to side with the Forsworn or the Silverbloods.


Technically, they're just guards. They might very well be the same guards as when the Empire was in control, but just with different clothes. The Stormcloaks and Imperials most likely don't have the manpower to replace every city guard in Skyrim when they take over a hold, so just having the guards swear an oath of servitute to them after the city's conquered would probably be enough.

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## Rater202

> Technically, they're just guards. They might very well be the same guards as when the Empire was in control, but just with different clothes. The Stormcloaks and Imperials most likely don't have the manpower to replace every city guard in Skyrim when they take over a hold, so just having the guards swear an oath of servitute to them after the city's conquered would probably be enough.


Fair enough, but if you're one of Ulfric's right hands fighting your way through the guard trying to arrest you, fleeing the hold, and telling Ulfric about the corruption should still be a valid option.

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## Keltest

> Fair enough, but if you're one of Ulfric's right hands fighting your way through the guard trying to arrest you, fleeing the hold, and telling Ulfric about the corruption should still be a valid option.


What makes you think he doesn't know? Maven at least we know has a public face that opposes the corruption in Riften, but the Silver-Blood family are very open about their control and corruption.


Actually, upon some thought, Maven is probably bluffing about her level of influence, since she never reacts when you become Listener and tries to thresten you with yourself.

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## Rater202

> Actually, upon some thought, Maven is probably bluffing about her level of influence, since she never reacts when you become Listener and tries to thresten you with yourself.


I'm pretty sure that Delvin is her contact to the Dark Brotherhood, being a former member who still has contact with Astrid.

Not being able to say "I'm in the Dark Brotherhood" is another example of what I'm talking about though.

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## Keltest

> I'm pretty sure that Delvin is her contact to the Dark Brotherhood, being a former member who still has contact with Astrid.
> 
> Not being able to say "I'm in the Dark Brotherhood" is another example of what I'm talking about though.


Delvin doesn't fit though since he isn't, as you say, a member anymore.

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## Rater202

> Delvin doesn't fit though since he isn't, as you say, a member anymore.


I don't think his business relationship with Astrid is a one-way street.

But what I meant was "someone who works for me has connections tot he Dark Brotherhood, therefore _I_ have connections to the Dark Brotherhood."

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## Fyraltari

The problem with the Cidhna Mine questline is that it contrives a way to get you arrested when it could just... start when you're arrested for any reason? You get thrown i the mine and a guard there slips you a message from Silver-Blood and then it continues on the same as the game. People wouldn't complain about being railroaded into getting arrested and you praise it as a cool "secret" quest which makes getting arrested there different.

Would have probably gone well with the cut Windhelm arena.

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## Mark Hall

This is part of why I love ttrpgs over crpgs; the dumb computer you have to convince that something will work takes bribes in Cheetos and Mountain Dew.  :Small Big Grin:

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## Keltest

> I don't think his business relationship with Astrid is a one-way street.
> 
> But what I meant was "someone who works for me has connections tot he Dark Brotherhood, therefore _I_ have connections to the Dark Brotherhood."


Yes, I understood you, but Delvin doesn't work for her wither. He works for the Thieves' Guild who sometimes takes commissions from her. For that matter, the Dark Brotherhood doesn't operate the way Maven implies either. They aren't a cult so much anymore but they very much maintain the appearance of their old behavior, so Maven claiming them as her personal hit men flies in the face of who they are and how they operate.

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## Rater202

> Yes, I understood you, but Delvin doesn't work for her wither. He works for the Thieves' Guild who sometimes takes commissions from her. For that matter, the Dark Brotherhood doesn't operate the way Maven implies either. They aren't a cult so much anymore but they very much maintain the appearance of their old behavior, so Maven claiming them as her personal hit men flies in the face of who they are and how they operate.


h, it's almost like she's an entitled wealthy person who overestimates her power and authority.

Once you've completed both the Thieves Guild and dark brotherhood questlines you basically own her ass, the game just never acknowledges it.

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## GloatingSwine

Maven Blackbriar knows that she is flagged essential and so she can backchat whoever she likes.

See also: Mayor MacReady.

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## Fyraltari

> Maven Blackbriar knows that she is flagged essential and so she can backchat whoever she likes.
> 
> See also: Mayor MacReady.


The implication that Maven Blackbriar is on the same level of enlightenment as Vivec or Sotha Sil is as hilarious as it is terrifying.

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## Grim Portent

Blackbriar might also be more in the know about the state of the Brotherhood by Skyrim than you'd expect.

She's powerful, wealthy, and has a lot of corrupt connections in the governments of Skyrim and Cyrodiil, perhaps the actual Imperial government. Odds are she knows, or has heard rumours, about how decimated the Brotherhood is from other criminal contacts or from groups like the Penitus Oculatus. Looters tore apart their sanctuaries in Cyrodiil after all, their locations and casualties wouldn't have been hard to account for. She'd certainly be able to learn that they only do hits in Skyrim or it's immediate vicinity and make connections with what happened elsewhere.

For Astrid, with no real mystical protections for her family, being cosy with Maven is one of the few proper protections she has. Maven views anyone and everyone as subordinate to her because she's managed to engineer (or inherit, the family has a mafia vibe) a situation where almost everyone is to some degree, but Astrid and the Thieves Guild are genuienly reliant on her for money and protection, a fact she's all too ready to abuse.

EDIT: For context, by the time of Skyrim there are three sanctuaries we know aren't compromised. One in Cyrodiil, that was at risk of being found, and the two in Skyrim. Cicero's journals indicate that the Brotherhood was more or less entirely wiped out elsewhere, any surviving members jumped ship to other professions or went independant. Until the Dragonborn comes along, Cicero and Festus Krex are the only actual members of the Brotherhood left, everyone else is just a weird murderer in funny clothes.



On a semi-related note, I was revisiting the Dark Brotherhood stuff from Oblivion, and Antoinetta Marie seems to imply that the Imperial Legion used as guards in the prison were sexually abusive to her. I think it might be one of the few instances of SA referenced in Elder Scrolls, indeed I can only think of one other such thing off the top of my head, that being Molag Bal's whole Daughter of Coldharbour thing.

Also remembered that private torture dungeon the Countess of Bravil had for Argonians. I had kind of forgotten Oblivion was so up front about people being horrible at times. We talk about the Thalmor being nasty, and there's Countess Caro over there torturing Argonians to death for fun.

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## Kareeah_Indaga

I would also like to see more connections between questlines - they dont have to _all_ connect to _all_ other major questlines but if we could get, say, two connections each I think it would be more natural than what we got in Skyrim.




> The problem with the Cidhna Mine questline is that it contrives a way to get you arrested when it could just... start when you're arrested for any reason? You get thrown i the mine and a guard there slips you a message from Silver-Blood and then it continues on the same as the game. People wouldn't complain about being railroaded into getting arrested and you praise it as a cool "secret" quest which makes getting arrested there different.


This is a problem with a lot of faction quests too. Compare the Thieves Guild questline in Oblivion with the one in Skyrim. 

Oblivion lets you join by either: 
tracking down someone and askinggetting arrestedconvincing the beggars to direct you to them
Skyrim: 
shoves Brynjolf into your face and expects you to jump on the plot hook, and there are no other options
I know they want their clumsy narrative but its very hard to make joining a natural thing when its like that.




> The implication that Maven Blackbriar is on the same level of enlightenment as Vivec or Sotha Sil is as hilarious as it is terrifying.


Second this.  :Small Big Grin:

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## Grim Portent

I do wish the Thieves and Brotherhood were as well crafted as they were in Oblivion, but I think that those two questlines were among the best writing of any Bethesda work, so it'd be a hard thing to pull off. How to set up a heist as conceptually cool as stealing an Elder Scroll from the Imperial Palace to break a daedric curse and all that? Especially with the items recovered in multiple quests being important in the execution of the heist.

I do wonder how much of the dev time was lost to the janky Civil War mechanics that got almost entirely cut anyway. I know Oblivion lost some dev time to AI experiments, but it felt far more finished than Skyrim does for the most part.

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## Rater202

I mean... Think about it.

If you complete the Thieves Guild Questline, including rebuilding it, then you're the head of a vast criminal empire that has the guards of every hold on your payroll.

If you join the dark brotherhood... The guards know you're in it, but are all either Sithis worshipers too afraid to do anything but beg you not to do anything to the people in town until you actually do something. Complete it and the Empire is going to be too busy dealing with the fallout of the Emperor's assassination to worry about what's going on in Skyrim.

Complete them both and you, by all means, own Braven Blackbriar who is either the Jarl of Riften or might as well be and the combination of the Guards being afraid/Sithis Worshiper and on your payroll means that you should effectively control the guard.

Complete the College and not only did you save the world from the Thalmor and have a legendary artifact in your possession, but you're the head of the college which earns you a position of respect from Skyrim's scholars. There aren't very many of them, but...

Complete the Companions and you're first among equals of a respected tribe of warriors.

You can be a Thanea minor noble and respected heroin every Hold.

By all means, if you do all of the Above you should effectively Rule Skyrim

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## Rynjin

> I do wish the Thieves and Brotherhood were as well crafted as they were in Oblivion, but I think that those two questlines were among the best writing of any Bethesda work, so it'd be a hard thing to pull off. How to set up a heist as conceptually cool as stealing an Elder Scroll from the Imperial Palace to break a daedric curse and all that? Especially with the items recovered in multiple quests being important in the execution of the heist.


The answer is instead of having the Thieves' Guild be a bunch of wimps who want to appease the Daedra, you have the questline be about their plan to steal back the literal concept of luck from Nocturnal herself.

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## Keltest

> The answer is instead of having the Thieves' Guild be a bunch of wimps who want to appease the Daedra, you have the questline be about their plan to steal back the literal concept of luck from Nocturnal herself.


As far as my dragonborn are concerned, they did. My soul is a dragon soul, if I go to her afterlife it's because I felt like it anyway, not because I agreed to it in trade.

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## Kareeah_Indaga

> How to set up a heist as conceptually cool as stealing an Elder Scroll from the Imperial Palace to break a daedric curse and all that? Especially with the items recovered in multiple quests being important in the execution of the heist.


I dunno, if we go to Hammerfell in ES6 I would love to steal one or more Apex stones from the Thalmor - stealing the stars out of the sky could be loads of fun!




> The answer is instead of having the Thieves' Guild be a bunch of wimps who want to appease the Daedra, you have the questline be about their plan to steal back the literal concept of luck from Nocturnal herself.


I would also be on board for this.

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## Rater202

> I mean... Think about it.
> 
> If you complete the Thieves Guild Questline, including rebuilding it, then you're the head of a vast criminal empire that has the guards of every hold on your payroll.
> 
> If you join the dark brotherhood... The guards know you're in it, but are all either Sithis worshipers too afraid to do anything but beg you not to do anything to the people in town until you actually do something. Complete it and the Empire is going to be too busy dealing with the fallout of the Emperor's assassination to worry about what's going on in Skyrim.
> 
> Complete them both and you, by all means, own Braven Blackbriar who is either the Jarl of Riften or might as well be and the combination of the Guards being afraid/Sithis Worshiper and on your payroll means that you should effectively control the guard.
> 
> Complete the College and not only did you save the world from the Thalmor and have a legendary artifact in your possession, but you're the head of the college which earns you a position of respect from Skyrim's scholars. There aren't very many of them, but...
> ...


Oh... And your status as a Dragonborn, same as Tiber Septim, is supported by either the Blades or the Greybeards.

Like, just Imagine Season Unending but you've done all of this stuff and then during the truce negotiation you launch a coup and your forces capture every hold while the leaders of both sides are occupied.

They tell you that you have the same drive for conquest that all dragons have but there's very little payoff for it.

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## Vinyadan

About torture and sexual assault, Morrowind had the Ordinators accused of torturing dissidents, while the Dremora at Maar Gan Shrine informed you that he would rape your corpse after he killed you. In the dungeons instead you could find what looked like the skeletons of tortured prisoners, especially where Daedra were present. And then there was the Dunmer stronghold with the arena; the prisoner was so shocked, she didn't actually explain anything, and only begged you for a scroll of Intervention.

For me the really crazy thing in Oblivion was in the last Brotherhood mission, as I believe there were skeletons of babies with dagger wounds in their skulls.

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## Kareeah_Indaga

> On a semi-related note, I was revisiting the Dark Brotherhood stuff from Oblivion, and Antoinetta Marie seems to imply that the Imperial Legion used as guards in the prison were sexually abusive to her. I think it might be one of the few instances of SA referenced in Elder Scrolls, indeed I can only think of one other such thing off the top of my head, that being Molag Bal's whole Daughter of Coldharbour thing.


Sapphire in the Thieves Guild mentions having been raped.




> For me the really crazy thing in Oblivion was in the last Brotherhood mission, as I believe there were skeletons of babies with dagger wounds in their skulls.


They really arent any better in Skyrim. One of the upgrades you can buy for the Dawnstar sanctum is a torture chamber IIRC.

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## Grim Portent

> About torture and sexual assault, Morrowind had the Ordinators accused of torturing dissidents, while the Dremora at Maar Gan Shrine informed you that he would rape your corpse after he killed you. In the dungeons instead you could find what looked like the skeletons of tortured prisoners, especially where Daedra were present. And then there was the Dunmer stronghold with the arena; the prisoner was so shocked, she didn't actually explain anything, and only begged you for a scroll of Intervention.
> 
> For me the really crazy thing in Oblivion was in the last Brotherhood mission, as I believe there were skeletons of babies with dagger wounds in their skulls.


Torture skeletons seem the way Bethesda likes to play the angle most often, the number of dungeons without a skeleton shackled to a wall or in a gibbet somewhere could probably be counted on one hand.

Skyrim likes to hint at it being more recent with dead bodies on tables, Oblivion used zombie models a lot.

Daedra, vampires or insane mages torturing people feels less shocking than the supposedly normal people though, the dremora at least are more or less classic demons, them being crass, cruel and violent is kind of expected. Volkihar is openly cruel and gore splattered, but they are vampires after all, it goes with the territory. Bravil's secret torture room, or the guards participating in institutionalised abuse of prisoners feels more messed up than the bodies and flesh containers in the Oblivion gates, at least to me. It gives off serial killer vibes in a way the more fantastical evils don't.

I don't remember my original reaction to the Night Mother's crypt anymore, it's been far too long, but I don't think I found it all that shocking. I think I was like 'oh hey, it's her children that she killed for Sithis, neat detail.'


I was thinking Skyrim hasn't really got the same sort of shock value evil anywhere, but then I remembered the necrophiliac necromancer up in the north, but even now I find him less disturbing than what Marie implies the guards did to her.




> Sapphire in the Thieves Guild mentions having been raped.


Forgot her. Think she's the only living person we meet in Skyrim who talks about something like that other than Serana (for a given value of 'living person.')

Forget basically all the Skyrim thieves mind you, there's so little to them sadly. Not that their older counterparts had much going on, but I can't help but contrast them to the Brotherhood and how it tries to make you bond with the assassins.

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## InvisibleBison

> Antoinetta Marie seems to imply that the Imperial Legion used as guards in the prison were sexually abusive to her.


After looking at her dialogue on UESP, I don't see where you're getting this from. It's clear the guards did something terrible to her while she was in prison, but I didn't see any of what she says as implying anything as to what that may have been. If you can do so without violating the forum rules, I'd be interested to hear why you thought her dialogue implied specifically sexual abuse.

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## Spore

> Forget basically all the Skyrim thieves mind you, there's so little to them sadly. Not that their older counterparts had much going on, but I can't help but contrast them to the Brotherhood and how it tries to make you bond with the assassins.


Not sure that has worked on me. Only one I enjoy is Babette, because she just RELISHES in her murdering. The others are varying degrees of "ow, that edge". I think I like Festus the most, because he is the old disgruntled man I aspire to be one day. Plus the thought of an assassin going: Just Fireball! is insanely funny to me.

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## Rynjin

> Not sure that has worked on me. Only one I enjoy is Babette, because she just RELISHES in her murdering. The others are varying degrees of "ow, that edge". I think I like Festus the most, because he is the old disgruntled man I aspire to be one day. Plus the thought of an assassin going: Just Fireball! is insanely funny to me.


There's a core of a few good characters there. Festus is the funny old man, Babette is the delightful monster, Astrid is "the mom", Arnbjorn is the jerk that warms up to you (and theoretically his relationship with Astrid is neat), and there's a certain pathos to Veezara being the last Shadowscale; trained to be an assassin from birth, now outcast from society for being what he was made to be.

Gabriella is the main pizza cutter, and Nazir's a little bland, but they could have done something with those character cores.

Problem is, they didn't.

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## Lurkmoar

I was putzing around earlier and stumbled on a Flawless Emerald just behind and below Anise's Cabin near Riverwood. Kinda wish I knew that was there for easy cash during early game.

As far as the DB, beyond the initial introduction where they swap stories, they seem to exclusively hang out in the Sanctuary. No random world interactions, and it's easy to miss Veezara during the Solitude Wedding hit. Babette has an random encounter, but it's after the move to the Dawnstar Sanctuary, so the quest line has pretty much run it's course.

I think the Companions are the only ones you're really encounter in the wild.

Edit: And Skjor body surfing is definitely wild.

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## ShadowShinobi

> You know what I want? I want ES6 to have it so that there's a degree of overlap in differant storylines.
> 
> Like, in Skyrim in Markarth there's the whole bit where the corrupt cops frame you for the murders you were looking into and send you to cidna Mine...
> 
> ...Even if you're completed the Thieves Guild questline and almost all the guards in every hold are on the Guild's, and thus your, payroll. Or if you're a Thane in that hold. Or if you've completed the Civil War for the Storm Cloaks and the only reason they're there is because they're Storm Cloaks themselves.
> 
> By all means, under those circumstances, you should have options other than to get arrested and then choose whether you want to side with the Forsworn or the Silverbloods.


Because I was a Thane, they wouldn't arrest me. I couldn't finish the quest. Wish I'd known that ahead of time.

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## veti

> Because I was a Thane, they wouldn't arrest me. I couldn't finish the quest. Wish I'd known that ahead of time.


This right here, this is a good illustration of why the whole "quest interaction" idea isn't going to happen. It adds complexity. It creates new ways for the game to fail. It means they have to spend expensive development time on creating multiple paths, only one of which can actually be followed in any given playthrough.

So it will appeal only to the hardcore fans (like, basically, everyone posting in this thread). Reviewers will probably never notice it, and nor will  the most profitable customers - the ones who buy basically every major new game - because they simply don't spend enough time replaying old games.

Significant added cost, basically zero added sales. You can see why they don't bother.

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## Grim Portent

> After looking at her dialogue on UESP, I don't see where you're getting this from. It's clear the guards did something terrible to her while she was in prison, but I didn't see any of what she says as implying anything as to what that may have been. If you can do so without violating the forum rules, I'd be interested to hear why you thought her dialogue implied specifically sexual abuse.


Fudamentally because describing someone as 'strong and cruel, so very cruel,' is usually a shorthand for them being sexual abusers or sexual sadists in fiction where outright stating sexual assault is off the table for one reason or another. A convention from late teen fiction or light horror.

Plus, y'know, she's a professional killer. Run of the mill sadism is normal for the Brotherhood, but sexual assault is often used as the benchmark for where irredeemable evil lies even among murderers in fiction.




> Not sure that has worked on me. Only one I enjoy is Babette, because she just RELISHES in her murdering. The others are varying degrees of "ow, that edge". I think I like Festus the most, because he is the old disgruntled man I aspire to be one day. Plus the thought of an assassin going: Just Fireball! is insanely funny to me.


I quite liked most of them. Not as much as the ones from Oblivion though, they felt more personable. They fit into various family cliches, except they're all murderers. Grumpy Uncle/Grandad, kooky Aunt, Stern but secretly proud Dad, that sort of thing.

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## Fyraltari

If we're going with implications, Babette's story when you first walk in the Skyrim's chapter of the DB implies that her target was a pedophile.

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## Rynjin

> I quite liked most of them. Not as much as the ones from Oblivion though, they felt more personable. They fit into various family cliches, except they're all murderers. Grumpy Uncle/Grandad, kooky Aunt, Stern but secretly proud Dad, that sort of thing.


Yeah, they're all fun archetypes on a surface level. I just wish there was a bit more to them. If you actually got to do a mission with each of them, properly (they're integral to the quest from start to finish instead of being missable cameos, basically) I think that would have been enough to make me actually feel something when most of them die.

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## Mark Hall

I'd also note that the whole Riften Orphanage is about child abuse.

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## Lurkmoar

> I'd also note that the whole Riften Orphanage is about child abuse.


I thought the orphans were exaggerating about being chained up first time I went in there. 

A short look through the place: no, they were not.

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## Rater202

> I thought the orphans were exaggerating about being chained up first time I went in there. 
> 
> A short look through the place: no, they were not.


It's very telling that murdering Grelod isn't considered a crime.

You can do it in front of witnesses and won't get a bounty or the guards on you.

It gives the impression that everyone knew what was happening in there and you're just the first person to work up the nerve to do anything about it.

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## Grim Portent

> I'd also note that the whole Riften Orphanage is about child abuse.


Physical and emotional, but not sexual (so far as I noticed anyway.) Ticks a box for torture in my book, and makes killing Grelod fun for all the family.  :Small Amused: 

I wonder if anyone's tallied all the incidents of torture being shown or hinted at in the Elder Scrolls. It'd be a long damn list, but also potentially informative. I imagine it'd boil down to 'everyone does it all the time,' but it might still be interesting. 

A lot of people in the Elder Scrolls must be really messed up psychologically when you think about the world they live in.

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## Mark Hall

> Physical and emotional, but not sexual (so far as I noticed anyway.) Ticks a box for torture in my book, and makes killing Grelod fun for all the family. 
> 
> I wonder if anyone's tallied all the incidents of torture being shown or hinted at in the Elder Scrolls. It'd be a long damn list, but also potentially informative. I imagine it'd boil down to 'everyone does it all the time,' but it might still be interesting. 
> 
> A lot of people in the Elder Scrolls must be really messed up psychologically when you think about the world they live in.


Still got nothing on the psychological damage that Fallout must inflict on people.

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## Grim Portent

> Still got nothing on the psychological damage that Fallout must inflict on people.


True. I think New Vegas goes darkest of the 3d Fallouts, but the Bethesda made titles get pretty grim as well.

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## Spore

> I quite liked most of them. Not as much as the ones from Oblivion though, they felt more personable. They fit into various family cliches, except they're all murderers. Grumpy Uncle/Grandad, kooky Aunt, Stern but secretly proud Dad, that sort of thing.


Honestly with the crazy uncle named Fester...I mean Festus, There is at least a bit of a Addams family vibe here. Not a whole analogy, for that Bjorn is too brutish and Astrid too much of a schemer, but still. Babette is vampire Wednesday more or less. 




> Physical and emotional, but not sexual (so far as I noticed anyway.) Ticks a box for torture in my book, and makes killing Grelod fun for all the family.


I am pretty sure Skyrim as a game has no actual prostitution which is kinda weird, but fitting. It is even weirder that Grelod has no ulterior motive outside of seeing orphans suffer. Or that she has 1 hp. Or that no one cares she dies. Or that takedown animations make me supplex her in front of half a dozen kids.

I know the Brotherhood is the best questline in the game (imho), but it is squandered potential to have Grelod not at least be in the Hargraven Faction with Anise, the radiant NPC hags

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## Grim Portent

> Or that takedown animations make me supplex her in front of half a dozen kids.


A connoisseur I see. I have a softspot for using a two handed axe/hammer for that goofy headbutt spam kill.

Grelod just being a mean spirited old biddy for the sake of it is a bit odd in a world where you can be a mean spirited old biddy for power, but not every horrible person needs to be getting magic powers out of it. I just kind of assumed Grelod hates people in general, children are just easy victims for her to be cruel to without facing repercussions, and she's too stupid, lazy, unimaginative or cowardly to become a witch and benefit in a material fashion from her sadism.

Sadly there's quite a history of that sort of person getting into positions of authority in orphanages in real life.  :Small Frown:

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## Spore

> A connoisseur I see. I have a softspot for using a two handed axe/hammer for that goofy headbutt spam kill.


That is the one I kinda dislike. I do enjoy the "decapitation with blunt weapon" one because it is so much not what would happen to a body it is gloriously dumb.




> Grelod just being a mean spirited old biddy for the sake of it is a bit odd in a world where you can be a mean spirited old biddy for power, but not every horrible person needs to be getting magic powers out of it.


Well, I see that argument. But this is a roleplaying world where one can have several story strings. I am okay with her just being an incidental "I punched this old hag, she dropped dead and now people are claiming I'm in the Brotherhood of Assassins" encounter. I would have settled for a diary - as those are 2-3 pages anyway - explaining why she is the way she is.

I am truly thinking no one is being abrasive for the heck of it. Even evil people have a reason. Raised differently, trauma, the works. And it would have been so easy. A town overrun by thieves, ruled by a dying breed of Empire loyalists has enough potential for her to go: 

_"Well, my parents were robbed and cast out of Riften for speaking up against the Empire, but I came back for their children pretending I was a saint who cared about war orphans. But little do they know, I hate Skyrim's citizens and their vile brats. It is time for mandatory "child torture time" again._

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## Resileaf

> That is the one I kinda dislike. I do enjoy the "decapitation with blunt weapon" one because it is so much not what would happen to a body it is gloriously dumb.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I see that argument. But this is a roleplaying world where one can have several story strings. I am okay with her just being an incidental "I punched this old hag, she dropped dead and now people are claiming I'm in the Brotherhood of Assassins" encounter. I would have settled for a diary - as those are 2-3 pages anyway - explaining why she is the way she is.
> 
> I am truly thinking no one is being abrasive for the heck of it. Even evil people have a reason. Raised differently, trauma, the works. And it would have been so easy. A town overrun by thieves, ruled by a dying breed of Empire loyalists has enough potential for her to go: 
> 
> _"Well, my parents were robbed and cast out of Riften for speaking up against the Empire, but I came back for their children pretending I was a saint who cared about war orphans. But little do they know, I hate Skyrim's citizens and their vile brats. It is time for mandatory "child torture time" again._


Insert "Grelod did nothing wrong" Stormcloak sympathizers here.

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## Vinyadan

I didn't like the Grelod mission, mostly because of how scripted and gratuitous it felt. If the game wanted to give you the chance to go against the Brotherhood, that would have been the moment to start. Go to the cops, tell them about Grelod or the ritual. Convince the child that that is not the way. Convince Grelod to leave her position, and then tell the child you weren't going to kill her now. All of these options had reason to irk the Brotherhood, no reason to force someone who wants to destroy them to actually do a contract murder by Night Mother ritual.

And, if you do want to kill her, there could have been so many options, starting with convincing her assistant to do it, instead of making Grelod a city-dwelling outlaw (in the Medieval sense) to make sure you suffer no consequences.

Skyrim instead both gave you no option, and created a game-rules-free zone, which, by the way, is the opposite of the immersive sim philosophy, but also doesn't make much sense for an RPG.

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## Kareeah_Indaga

> I am pretty sure Skyrim as a game has no actual prostitution which is kinda weird, but fitting.


Thats because the Prostitutes Guild is an Imperial establishment.




> I didn't like the Grelod mission, mostly because of how scripted and gratuitous it felt. If the game wanted to give you the chance to go against the Brotherhood, that would have been the moment to start. Go to the cops, tell them about Grelod or the ritual. Convince the child that that is not the way. Convince Grelod to leave her position, and then tell the child you weren't going to kill her now. All of these options had reason to irk the Brotherhood, no reason to force someone who wants to destroy them to actually do a contract murder by Night Mother ritual.


I concur, the start of the Destroy branch is very counter-intuitive. I wouldnt have even known it existed if not for out-of-game sources.

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## Lurkmoar

Fear Grelod, run her out of the Orphanage and Edda will come get her.

Still, it's a stretch.

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## Grim Portent

> I didn't like the Grelod mission, mostly because of how scripted and gratuitous it felt. If the game wanted to give you the chance to go against the Brotherhood, that would have been the moment to start. Go to the cops, tell them about Grelod or the ritual. Convince the child that that is not the way. Convince Grelod to leave her position, and then tell the child you weren't going to kill her now. All of these options had reason to irk the Brotherhood, no reason to force someone who wants to destroy them to actually do a contract murder by Night Mother ritual.
> 
> And, if you do want to kill her, there could have been so many options, starting with convincing her assistant to do it, instead of making Grelod a city-dwelling outlaw (in the Medieval sense) to make sure you suffer no consequences.
> 
> Skyrim instead both gave you no option, and created a game-rules-free zone, which, by the way, is the opposite of the immersive sim philosophy, but also doesn't make much sense for an RPG.


I'm pretty sure what she does is perfectly legal in Skyrim. Beating children (and wives) as a form of 'discipline' was the norm for a long time, as was locking them in confined spaces, and refusing to put orphans up for adoption for various reasons, some benevolent, some malicious. I doubt the Empire/Skyrim's laws on that front are any better than historical ones were. Unless she actually kills or sexually molests a child she's probably not legally at fault for their suffering.

I don't take her as an outlaw in any formal sense, more just that a lot of the town is glad she's dead and disinclined to ask questions. Riften
guard sees someone murder the old lady everyone hates? They must need new glasses, because they didn't see a thing.

Honestly surprised Mjoll hasn't killed her by the time the player arrives. I know the people of Riften don't talk about the orphanage, but you'd think she'd find out that Grelod's a piece of **** from someone and decide to take matters into her own hands. Then again, semi-medieval morality, so she might not think of what Grelod does as negatively as we do. And Mjoll seems to want to be heroically rather than pragmatically good, and I will admit that turning Grelod into a pile of ash or her spine into a slinky isn't exactly heroic.

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## Fyraltari

Riften is meant to be much bigger than it is shown in-game, it's entirely possible Mjoll had never heard of Grelod.

It's also possible she doesn't see her behaviour as reprehensible, just mean.

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## Vinyadan

> Fear Grelod, run her out of the Orphanage and Edda will come get her.
> 
> Still, it's a stretch.


With just a little dialogue, it could have been an interesting option. Find out that Edda wants her dead, find a way to make Grelod leave the building (have the children set up a fire, or pretend you have poisoned her and she needs to get a healer, there are many options beside the spell) and have her killed.

Actually, that looks like the remant of a quest that could not be integrated properly because of missing voiced dialogue.

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## Spore

> I'm pretty sure what she does is perfectly legal in Skyrim. Beating children (and wives) as a form of 'discipline' was the norm for a long time, as was locking them in confined spaces, and refusing to put orphans up for adoption for various reasons, some benevolent, some malicious. I doubt the Empire/Skyrim's laws on that front are any better than historical ones were. Unless she actually kills or sexually molests a child she's probably not legally at fault for their suffering.
> 
> I don't take her as an outlaw in any formal sense, more just that a lot of the town is glad she's dead and disinclined to ask questions. Riften
> guard sees someone murder the old lady everyone hates? They must need new glasses, because they didn't see a thing.
> 
> Honestly surprised Mjoll hasn't killed her by the time the player arrives. I know the people of Riften don't talk about the orphanage, but you'd think she'd find out that Grelod's a piece of **** from someone and decide to take matters into her own hands. Then again, semi-medieval morality, so she might not think of what Grelod does as negatively as we do. And Mjoll seems to want to be heroically rather than pragmatically good, and I will admit that turning Grelod into a pile of ash or her spine into a slinky isn't exactly heroic.


People like that were still looked down upon by some of the populace. There is a reason there are so many Grimm's Fairytales precedentes by abusive adults

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## Delicious Taffy

> Riften is meant to be much bigger than it is shown in-game


This is a game design/storytelling trope I don't especially like. We hear about these "great cities" and then it's a dozen buildings with maybe twice that many people.

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## Fyraltari

> This is a game design/storytelling trope I don't especially like. We hear about these "great cities" and then it's a dozen buildings with maybe twice that many people.


My CPU is appreciative, though.

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## Rynjin

> This is a game design/storytelling trope I don't especially like. We hear about these "great cities" and then it's a dozen buildings with maybe twice that many people.


Engine limitations are a bitch.

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## Delicious Taffy

The technical limitations I understand, sure. And it makes sense and all that they'd be restricted in that way. Doesn't mean I have to hold it in any particularly high regard, though. Everyone else does that enough for me.

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## Lurkmoar

Honestly, I would be okay with some buildings that you simply can't enter and are there to make the cities look bigger. Maybe a small handful of unnamed NPCs with random clothes, loot (pick pocketing!) that would roam around doing some tasks and then despawn when they enter a decor building. 

Easiest way I explain it away is that everyone and all the locations are in-game are the ones that the Dragonborn bothers remembering.

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## Spore

> Engine limitations are a bitch.


Vivec City felt that much larger and is 9ish years older.

Loading Screens are a blessing for this kind.

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## Fyraltari

> Vivec City felt that much larger and is 9ish years older.
> 
> Loading Screens are a blessing for this kind.


Well, that and unintuitive urban planning.

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## Vinyadan

Vivec I think managed to use lore (factions, culture, social classes) to make the city feel much larger than it actually was. It has some 140 inhabitants, and some cantons have only ten or a dozen. But it feels justified in that the shape of the cantons lets you believe that there is much more than what you are seeing, that for example there are many more dwellings in St. Olms and St. Delyn, or more business is being conducted by the Hlaalu, because the setting as a whole holds up these notions.

140 is a lot by recent Elder Scrolls standards, but not inconceivable. Balmora had more than 90 inhabitants. Sadrith Mora had 80. And Ald-Ruhn apparently had... 128?

Also, since important cities generally had a twin Legion fort, you might add to Vivec the 76 people in Ebonheart, 10 to Balmora, 16 to Ald-Ruhn, and 23 to Sadrith Mora.

And then you add the generic, respawning guards.

Skingrad had 59 inhabitants. However, AI routines meant that you actually met those people on the road, and voiced dialogue made them more unique.

I don't know how it compares to Skyrim. I think Windhelm had 70 inhabitants, but I didn't check.

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## Grim Portent

Sometimes a well designed city can feel big while being small in practice. Perspective tricks, lighting, elaborate backgrounds.

I wouldn't want Elder Scrolls to go all GTA on us and have a massive city where only a handful of buildings are real and the people are mostly throwaways, even just the guards being non-descript and interchangeable highlights some silliness in the game. It's nice to be able to follow someone back to their house, break in and steal their stuff and drink their blood as a vampire.

I would kind of prefer them to have games be smaller than a whole province, but more detailed and realistic sized within the parts of the province they do have. Like it should be perfectly possible to make a game set entirely in the county of Skingrad for example, with Skingrad itself being one huge city split into chunks, a lot of reasonably meaty villages, and lots of content in ruins, wilderness and farmland around the county.

Skyrim feels very small at times, but if Whiterun was the size Skyrim is it would be possible to make it feel more... plausible is the best word I suppose.

Issue there would be making it all interesting, pocket sizing a whole country is a good way to fit in varied biomes and different types of aesthetics and content. All Whiterun all the time would get boring far faster I imagine.

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## Fyraltari

> Issue there would be making it all interesting, pocket sizing a whole country is a good way to fit in varied biomes and different types of aesthetics and content. All Whiterun all the time would get boring far faster I imagine.


It'd certainly make it harder to justify all the dungeon crawling and monster fighting.

I agree that restraining the game to the something as big as a county or a minor kingdom would be best.
_Daggerfall_ only showed parts of High Rock and Hammerfell and _Morrowind_, despite the name, only showed Vvardenfell. There's no need for a game to show an entire Province.

That said, one should remember that Skyrim's holds and Cyrodiil's counties are themselves the size of countries, so just one notable city in each is a really low number.

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## Resileaf

> It'd certainly make it harder to justify all the dungeon crawling and monster fighting.
> 
> I agree that restraining the game to the something as big as a county or a minor kingdom would be best.
> _Daggerfall_ only showed parts of High Rock and Hammerfell and _Morrowind_, despite the name, only showed Vvardenfell. There's no need for a game to show an entire Province.
> 
> That said, one should remember that Skyrim's holds and Cyrodiil's counties are themselves the size of countries, so just one notable city in each is a really low number.


Mind you Vvanderfell is still about half of Morrowind.

That said, I agree. Trying to portray an entire enormous province means that you lose in the details where everything feels tiny. Major cities feel like pretty villages, minor towns are a collection of three or four buildings, villages are inexistent unless they're plot-important or fill up an empty space. I don't know what kind of fix exists for that though. If you shrink the map, you no longer can have plots that affect an entire province (and in a civil war plotline, you need an entire country to make the plotline impactful and show that it affects all of it, not to mention it's harder to make culturally and visually-different places). If you grow the map to make the province look more accurate, everything becomes more generic and more empty because it's impossible to develop an entire world down to the individual peasant and you'll have to fill it up with generics.

A potential change could be to make it like FFXIV, where free-roaming areas are separated by zone transitions. You can highly develop some areas while implying that there are enormous distances between the various places you visit. This does go against the usual Elder Scrolls open world method though.

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## WritersBlock

The "Tamriel Rebuilt" mod got another update recently I really need to download. Not only does it add the mainland of Morrowind, and ton of new content, they also seem to be quite dedicated to keeping the Elder Scrolls series lore straight. (Unlike Oblivion) Cannot wait to see how horrible House Dres is when they are added. (House Indoril are some nasty people but Dres are supposed to be on a whole other level of bad)

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## Delicious Taffy

I'm gonna be picking up ESO in the next couple days cuz it's like $6 right now. Now, as a rabid FF14 player, is there anything especially different I should be making a note of, so I don't go in and immediately get blacklisted for thinking I can act the same?

If it matters, it's gonna be on PS4 and I'm not committed to playing long-term just yet. Also I'm not a high-level raider or anything as it is (can barely clear Extremes), so I'm mainly asking about the base gameplay and the social aspects.

That is, if anyone on this board even plays ESO.

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## GloatingSwine

ESO is pretty much all about the questing. There are dungeons and raids (trials) but they're not as developed as FFXIV and it doesn't really have the wide scale community. It still has the same thing FFXIV does with everyone rushing through them when you play them with randoms as well though. No equivalent of Duty Support yet.

Mostly I reccommend new players start by picking up their alliance storyline and play that, the mages and fighters guild, and the OG main quest side by side. Don't worry about gear until you hit 160CP when its numbers stop going up.

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## Kareeah_Indaga

> Mostly I reccommend new players start by picking up their alliance storyline and play that, the mages and fighters guild, and the OG main quest side by side. Don't worry about gear until you hit 160CP when its numbers stop going up.


Never played FFXIV, but I will add: start crafting research ASAP (even if youre not into crafting for its own sake itll let you retrait your gear later, and its fairly simple to do), and dont worry about hoarding set pieces in case you need them later - ESO has a stickerbook now that will let you recreate any dropped set pieces that youve bound to your account.

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## GloatingSwine

Yeah, each piece of gear has a trait on it, you can research them to use them yourself, the first time you see a new one hang on to it and try and keep as many researching as you have slots for.

In general sell any gear that has the "valuable" icon and deconstruct the rest for crafting XP.

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## Spore

> I'm gonna be picking up ESO in the next couple days cuz it's like $6 right now. Now, as a rabid FF14 player, is there anything especially different I should be making a note of, so I don't go in and immediately get blacklisted for thinking I can act the same?


You level skills by assigning them to the hotbar then questing and killing monsters. This can result in hybrid builds that are wonky levelling builds that CAN heal, but are not specialized in healing. Some that CAN tank but are not specced into it.

These are called hybrid builds, and a part of (elitist) players frowns upon them, because it is seen as a way for DPS to sneak into dungeons as "fake healers". But healers are still very much expected to heal and buff their party first, then dps. But DPS they shall. DPS ranges from "press 1 until your fingers bleed" over a simple pet build to very complicated builds. I never truly tanked, but tanking is pretty straight forward (they are more or less just a sturdier DPS).

Pick the race that pleases you visually. There are meta builds, and unlike other games race does matter somewhat, but it is like old World of Warcraft builds. The race is the last 3-5%ish. It is mostly about player comfort honestly. People typically start race and build/class and stay that way (because race change costs money). 2000 bonus magicka from Altmer is a boon to any magicka character (healer, or mag dps). If you are unsure, Dark Elves, Khajiit and Argonians are a good start for either path.

Damage dealers are split into magicka and stamina (taking 100% of all stat upgrades), tanks are usually health focussed, with a bit of either or both, depending on your build.

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## GloatingSwine

That mostly applies when you want to do dungeons though.

Respeccing is super cheap, so don't worry about where things go whilst you're levelling.

Also if you bought one of the collected editions that gives you either High Isle or Blackwood go there first and get at least one companion so you can start them levelling, that takes a while.

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## Mark Hall

> This is a game design/storytelling trope I don't especially like. We hear about these "great cities" and then it's a dozen buildings with maybe twice that many people.


Daggerfall. Arena, too, but Daggerfall was like this.

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## GloatingSwine

> Daggerfall. Arena, too, but Daggerfall was like this.


No?

Daggerfall had huge numbers of buildings. They were generic and there were only like seven or eight templates, but there were zillions of them per town.

The city of Daggerfall in Daggerfall had 306 buildings (not including the castle), which is not a "real" city size but by videogame standards is pretty sizable. By 1995 standards it's absolutely gargantuan.

Even the smaller villages would generally have 50+ buildings (but more of them would be generic residences).

And it just randomly generated an NPC swarm whenever you went to town to pad out the static NPCs so there was the impression of a large population.

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## Mark Hall

> No?
> 
> Daggerfall had huge numbers of buildings. They were generic and there were only like seven or eight templates, but there were zillions of them per town.
> 
> The city of Daggerfall in Daggerfall had 306 buildings (not including the castle), which is not a "real" city size but by videogame standards is pretty sizable. By 1995 standards it's absolutely gargantuan.
> 
> Even the smaller villages would generally have 50+ buildings (but more of them would be generic residences).
> 
> And it just randomly generated an NPC swarm whenever you went to town to pad out the static NPCs so there was the impression of a large population.


Sorry, I meant "Daggerfall is what is being sought".

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## Vinyadan

As far as cities are concerned, I think Red Faction: Guerrilla was an oddly courageous title. It was similar to the 3D GTA as general setup, except it was set during a violent revolution on a terraformed Mars. You started out in the more peripherical and sparsely inhabitated areas, but, as the game progressed, you got closer to the main population and administration hubs, interspersed with military, industrial and civilian compounds. The thing is that you could not only enter, but demolish each one of the buildings, and they were rather complex structures (it also made fights and missions more interesting, for example when you got a jetpack and the ability to enter towers by blowing the roof with a charge, or when you could enter a building by slamming a car into it, or run a mining truck through the wall of a military base). I don't think there's another game like that.

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## veti

In Fallout 3 there are buildings that are completely non-interactive. Not only is there no way to enter them, there is no visible door at all, even if you walk all the way around. They're basically rocks. 

It's possible to add a lot of generic NPCs, all acting individually in a reasonably immersive way, if you just drop the insistence that they all need their own dialogue. Assassin's Creed comes to mind - released in 2007, it had well populated cities that actually looked and felt like cities, at the cost of a great many non-enterable buildings and uncommunicative people. Even individual behaviour AI packages aren't that demanding as far as CPUs are concerned. What takes time is writing and customising them.

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## Gwynchan'rGwyll

Witcher 3 comes to mind. Novigrad felt like a properly big city. I remember immediately thinking "this is what a city in a game should feel like".

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## Triaxx

So, having the Skyrim Itch again. Any lesser known mods you like that you think need some more eyes on?

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## veti

> So, having the Skyrim Itch again. Any lesser known mods you like that you think need some more eyes on?


As I mentioned a few days ago, I recommend Warden of the Coast. Once you get to level 15 or so, anyway - don't make the mistake of starting it as soon as the hook spawns.

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## Mark Hall

> So, having the Skyrim Itch again. Any lesser known mods you like that you think need some more eyes on?


My personal favorite is a skill uncapper. Instead of having to reset your favorite skills once you get to 100, your skills just keep going. After 100, you CAN reset them, but you don't have to.

Unrelated: I wish the Fury, Calm, Fear spells had been pegged to the Dragonborn's level, instead of the targets. Would have made them far more useful (but I still think Fury is a great investment before doing the Bleak Falls Barrow)

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## Grim Portent

> Unrelated: I wish the Fury, Calm, Fear spells had been pegged to the Dragonborn's level, instead of the targets. Would have made them far more useful (but I still think Fury is a great investment before doing the Bleak Falls Barrow)


Honestly would have just made them work on anything, with NPCs that you don't want mind magiced just being immune.

Or something like Illusion level * spell tier. Maybe throw on a /2 or /4 depending on how much you care about the existence of higher tier version of the novice spells.

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## Spore

> Honestly would have just made them work on anything, with NPCs that you don't want mind magiced just being immune.


Just give them a chance to fizzle and aggro the target with your exact location. You'd change the illusion armor enchant to be (add up to 10% to illusion chance with 5 pieces buffing the chance by 50% plus whatever bonus chance the skills unlock). Maybe even capping it at 85%.

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## veti

Been trying to play Summerset Isle.

I want to like this mod. There's been a ridiculous amount of work put into it. The land itself feels, if anything, slightly larger than Skyrim proper, although (inevitably, perhaps) rather empty. Scenery, music and textures are lovely, voice acting is decent (though not as good as other big mods I've played recently). 

Unfortunately, all that ambition is not backed up by enough technical competence to carry it off. I had to give up when I came to a main-quest-breaking bug. Nothing exciting, just a character won't speak to me when I need them to, and without them I'm at a standstill.

And this is where the whole thing gets ugly. Ordinarily, I'd post a description of the bug on the Nexus forum and hope the author got back to me with instructions on what to do next. But the author has shut down all discussion on the Nexus - no Forum, no Posts, no bug reports. That's - not the hallmark of someone who cares about their users' experience. Instead they direct me to a wiki, which is (1) clearly heavily curated, (2) out of date, and (3) won't even let me register as a user for anyway, so that's that.

What else to say about the mod... Enemies are OP (which I don't necessarily mind, but they're OP in the least interesting way possible, which is to say they're basically vanilla enemies but with _much_ bigger stats - think of the bullet sponges from Point Lookout and you'll get the general idea, but turn it up to 11). There's far too much walking (the Shimmerene Mage's Guild, on the inside, is about as big as the whole of Windhelm, and you have to cross it repeatedly to get from the entrance to the tower at the back where your quest giver hangs out). There are some good things here, a lot of content, and some cool plot ideas; however, after several hours of play, I've yet to meet a single NPC who makes me give a damn' what happens to them. 

So, regretfully, I'm going to abandon this character. Until such time as the author starts offering support, he's stuck.

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## Mark Hall

I have picked up Skyrim again. I crowdsourced my character creation to my 7 year old, so I am a female argonian. Oddly, I found myself falling into a two-handed style... Conjuration, first, with an off-hand dagger for when I'm casting or out of magicka for my summoned battle axe.

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