# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next > Optimization Why use Slow over Web?

## Segev

_Slow_ is a third level spell that affects up to six creatures, and grants  Wisdom saves to avoid or end it every turn. This inflicts several debuffs, and limits their actions. _Web_ is a 2nd level spell that restrains creatures, preventing them from moving at all and giving disadvantage to their attacks and advantage to hit them, which are stronger than the -2 to hit and to AC _slow_ed targets get. 

It seems to me like _web_ is just plain stronger than _slow_, but is lower level. What am I missing?

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## Snowbluff

Works on flying creatures for one. Also can't be ignited. And doesn't friendly fire. And just plain screws with casting and multi attacks. 

Web is very good, but slow is mostly a spell I take because it's not very situational. It works on most things and I don't have worry about throwing it will nilly.  :Small Tongue:

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## gooch

Friendly fire and range are two massive factors - 6 creatures of your choice vs a 4x4 grid volume. And the reaction/bonus action/spell casting debuff is spectacular on the right creatures.
On some conveniently tightly packed mundane creatures though, Web is definitely the smarter use of resources.

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## PhoenixPhyre

Web also takes a strength save. And only has an effect in a small, static area. Slow can hit widely-separated targets with no friendly fire. And sticks until they save. And casters care very little about web, but are nerfed by slow.

I had an encounter with two venom hydras (acid-spitting nasty hydras) absolutely ruined (in a good way) with a single cast of _slow_. They failed and needed a 19+ to break out (low wis, very high STR). They got kited in circles until dead. Web would have only hit one of them max, and they'd have broken out instantly (high STR). And "not even remotely in range" beats "disadvantage on attacks" any day.

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## sithlordnergal

So personally, I feel like Slow is a terrible spell for players to take. You have several better debuff spells in 2nd and 3rd level than what Slow can provide, and a lot of the things it targets aren't really applicable to most NPCs. Or at least, not all at once.

However, it is the perfect debuff spell for DMs to use. It targets 6 creatures, which is one less than the max suggested party size, and if a creature does fail they can still do things, unlike with Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, or Hold Person. Additionally, it debuffs everything a PC would and could do. It hits movement speed, AC, reactions, bonus actions, normal actions, spellcasting, and normal attacks. Doesn't matter if the player is a Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, or Fighter, they'll be hurt by this debuff without being removed from the game.


As for Web vs Slow specifically, Web has two issues that could make it less useful. The first is this:




> If the webs arent anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn. Webs layered over a flat surface have a depth of 5 feet.


You have to either anchor it or put it on the ground, otherwise it disappears after one round. Now, that doesn't make it useless, but that does make it a bit more niche. Its kind of like Spike Growth, very powerful spell if you have the terrain for it. Slow doesn't care where you cast it,so it can be used anywhere, any time.


The next issue with Web is this:




> The webs are flammable. Any 5-foot cube of webs exposed to fire burns away in 1 round, dealing 2d4 fire damage to any creature that starts its turn in the fire.


That is just vague enough to be annoying. Mainly with how much fire is required to burn the webs away. Is it saying you need a 5ft cube of fire to burn away a 5ft cube of webs? Or is it saying that you could use a single lit torch to burn away a 5ft cube of webs? Seems like it could be either one, and is firmly in DM decision territory. I don't know about you, but I like my spells to be consistent across all DMs, especially debuffs. Additionally, the party needs to be very careful with the spells they use now. Spells like Lightning Bolt and Fireball are no longer usable within that area unless you want to destroy the webs. And any NPCs with fire spells or abilities can simply end the spell.

Slow doesn't have that issue. It can be dropped on your own party and you can choose to have it ignore them. It can't be ended in one round because the Light Cleric wasn't paying attention and decided to drop a Fireball despite the warnings.

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## Corran

> _Slow_ is a third level spell that affects up to six creatures, and grants  Wisdom saves to avoid or end it every turn. This inflicts several debuffs, and limits their actions. _Web_ is a 2nd level spell that restrains creatures, preventing them from moving at all and giving disadvantage to their attacks and advantage to hit them, which are stronger than the -2 to hit and to AC _slow_ed targets get. 
> 
> It seems to me like _web_ is just plain stronger than _slow_, but is lower level. What am I missing?


I dont think slow is a great spell, but two things it has in its favor over web, are that it has a bigger area and it is party friendly. On average I would say it hurts casters more too.

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## Witty Username

> Web also takes a strength save. And only has an effect in a small, static area. Slow can hit widely-separated targets with no friendly fire. And sticks until they save. And casters care very little about web, but are nerfed by slow.
> 
> I had an encounter with two venom hydras (acid-spitting nasty hydras) absolutely ruined (in a good way) with a single cast of _slow_. They failed and needed a 19+ to break out (low wis, very high STR). They got kited in circles until dead. Web would have only hit one of them max, and they'd have broken out instantly (high STR). And "not even remotely in range" beats "disadvantage on attacks" any day.


Web is a dex save?
It can be broken with a strength check but that costs an action to attempt.

Slow is pretty awesome though, the area being both large and one sided means it is very good in a bunch of situations, and the effect isn't as good as a straight disable, but it doesn't usually need to be.

Also Slow can be stacked with other effects.

Like say grease(the non-concentration difficult terrain spell), a creature in a grease effect and also slowed is going nowhere unless they have a lot of speed. 

Web doesn't have the layering as much, because of difficult terrain not stacking.

Flying is also a thing, but if one is simply trying to ground a flier then web will work, its just much less reliable then the standard use.

A control caster would prefer having several effects for handling different scenarios -
Grease, web, slow, hypnotic pattern, etc. All have different situations that justify their use
As well as my personal favorite Sleet Storm.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

Besides what's already mentioned, which makes Slow way more versatile, here's another: if you have Melee characters in your group, in situations where Web might be the better choice, it has the potential to also stop those Melee characters from doing anything useful.

Basically, Web is only better in tight confines where the party isn't on top of the enemy yet, enemies are more closely packed, enemies don't have an easy way to just burn away the effect, and the party can effectively work around the Web.  Under those conditions, sure the conditions imposed by Web are better.

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## Snowbluff

> I had an encounter with two venom hydras (acid-spitting nasty hydras) absolutely ruined (in a good way) with a single cast of _slow_. They failed and needed a 19+ to break out (low wis, very high STR). They got kited in circles until dead. Web would have only hit one of them max, and they'd have broken out instantly (high STR). And "not even remotely in range" beats "disadvantage on attacks" any day.


Additionally, had that situation been such that they could not be kited, that difference between the two spells is 1 attack versus 5 attacks with disadvantage. I believe that slow is better, but will admit that 5+ attacks per round is relatively unusual.

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## PhoenixPhyre

> Additionally, had that situation been such that they could not be kited, that difference between the two spells is 1 attack versus 5 attacks with disadvantage. I believe that slow is better, but will admit that 5+ attacks per round is relatively unusual.


Yeah. I forgot to mention that part. These particular ones could spit venom 1x per regular attack. So instead of many (got up to 9 heads at one point) attacks even if in range, they had _max_ one, usually at disadvantage because slow base movement + half movement on that means a halfling could outrange them _without dashing_. When your move speed _before_ difficult terrain is 10ft...

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## Guy Lombard-O

One other point in Slow's favor (not so much over just Web but its other 3rd level competitors) is that it works on whatever creatures that fail the save, landing a few different debuffs which are sure to weaken the target regardless of ranged/melee/caster.  No cutouts for fear or charm immunity.

That still leaves Slow as a mid-high end 3rd level spell, and Web as a top-tier 2nd level spell.  Both are worthy.

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## Frogreaver

We know slow is much better if you are targeting mages.

Against melee enemies is the real question and there it will depend.  

Web per enemy (assuming 60% chance failed save and skill checks for ease).

Thus, against a single melee enemy that tries to break free each turn
Losing 1 turn = .6
Losing 2 turns = .36
Losing 3 turns = .216
Losing 4 turns = .1296


On average this will cause a single enemy to lose about 1.3 turns.  (There's not typically significant difference if the enemy attacks at disadvantage instead of trying to break free).

It's harder to put a number on slow because there's alot more variables at play.  In general we can look at an average situation.  Enemy gets delayed 1 move from party and then gets to attempt attacks.  Normally multiattacks 2 attacks but due to slow only has a single attack.

In this case the enemy will lose Turn 1 60% of the time.
He will be half as effective on his turn 2, 36% of the time
He will be half as effective on his turn 3, 21.6% of the time
He will be half as effective on his turn 4, 12.96% of the time

This means on average a single enemy targeted by slow will lose 0.95 turns.  This can be a little better if enemies start further away, but likely still won't be as effective as web on a per enemy basis.  However, while outside tight spaces web may only hit 2-3 enemies typically, slow can often hit 6 if there are that many enemies present in the encounter.  

All that said, slow does protect your ranged characters as they can essentially kite away from any slowed melee enemy.  This funnels all the slowed melee enemies into your hopefully tankier melee allies.  So there's a bit of a tactical element there as well.

In general, if there's any casters use slow over web.  If you can target 2-3 more enemies that aren't so close they can still reach your party next turn if slowed then I'd use slow over web.  If your party as a whole is willing to kite then slow is better.  

Only time this isn't really true is in tight confines or twisty corridors that block LOS.

Sleet storm on the other hand delays all melee enemies in it's radius a turn, no save needed.  Many of the enemies in it's radius will fail their save, becoming prone which likely delays 1 additional turn.  If an enemy fails the prone save again he may even be delayed 3 turns.  It blocks LOS (which impacts most other spells).  The AOE is much larger than slow as well.

Estimated number of turns on average a single enemy loses in sleet storm is 1.96.  So long as enemies start a sufficient distance away I think sleet storm is greater.  One other benefit of Sleet Storm is that your melee allies aren't going to run through it (you should boost your initiative so you more often go before them).

The only other choices that probably come out better are hypnotic pattern and fear (but charm and fear have many monsters immune).

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## Sigreid

I'd say you use slow because you don't want to impede the movement of people on your side.

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## Witty Username

A slight note is that since web is also difficult terrain it can inhibit movement even on a successful save, and an action successfully breaking the restrained condition doesnt nessasarily mean escaping the effect.

I once saw a level 5 party trivalize a fight with a storm giant because of that.

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## Frogreaver

> A slight note is that since web is also difficult terrain it can inhibit movement even on a successful save, and an action successfully breaking the restrained condition doesnt nessasarily mean escaping the effect.
> 
> I once saw a level 5 party trivalize a fight with a storm giant because of that.


A 4x4 square isn't much difficult terrain and outside of tight spaces (where everyone already agrees web is great) that little bit of difficult terrain can mostly be walked around.

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## MrStabby

> _Slow_ is a third level spell that affects up to six creatures, and grants  Wisdom saves to avoid or end it every turn. This inflicts several debuffs, and limits their actions. _Web_ is a 2nd level spell that restrains creatures, preventing them from moving at all and giving disadvantage to their attacks and advantage to hit them, which are stronger than the -2 to hit and to AC _slow_ed targets get. 
> 
> It seems to me like _web_ is just plain stronger than _slow_, but is lower level. What am I missing?


I think that one big thing, is that slow will hit a lot of enemies that just don't care about being restrained.  Enemies that can throw fireballs instead of making attack rolls or ghosts that can move through web or fire elementals or whatever.  For some enemies web is better, for others slow.

Some DMs prefer high wisdom enemies or those with wisdom saves, other prefer brutes that will fail wisdom saves.

Web has a split save which isn't great - a creature good at either dex OR str saves will avoid the worst of the effects.

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## Chronos

> Web has a split save which isn't great - a creature good at either dex OR str saves will avoid the worst of the effects.


And a creature that isn't good at Dex _or_ Str is probably a caster, or something like one.  What creature is the ideal target for a Web?

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## Unoriginal

> And a creature that isn't good at Dex _or_ Str is probably a caster, or something like one. 
>  What creature is the ideal target for a Web?


A group of melee-focused, medium-sized mooks, preferably in a space narrow enough they're blocking more of their friends from pouring in or taking aim at the PCs?

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## Witty Username

> A 4x4 square isn't much difficult terrain and outside of tight spaces (where everyone already agrees web is great) that little bit of difficult terrain can mostly be walked around.


Depending on how swol the moster is as larger creatures will need to clear their behind. And where it needs to be when it gets out of the web. For example if it needs to pull back then go around it is probably losing a second action navigating.

The difficult terrain usually represents a lost action, in addition to any actions lost by the restrained effect.

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## Witty Username

> Web has a split save which isn't great - a creature good at either dex OR str saves will avoid the worst of the effects.


A creature with high strength but fails the dex save will still lose at least 1 action. And strength check not strength save.
High strength enemies can still be badly screwed over by web.
(Revanent is a good example of this in play, it needs something like a 13 or better to beat the dex save, and it has prof to str saves but not check, so it still only has a 50/50 shot of escaping and has lost 1 action)

Further high dex enemies with low strength can be effectively permanently trapped by web if they low roll. Some things like diviner wizard or shadow sorcerer can be brutal here.
(I was thinking quicklings, but Darklings also work and are more likely to fail the dex save, with a -3 strength check, web is essentially a save or die for these monsters, even if they have a good chance of making the save)

To avoid the worst effects the creature needs high dex, and still may need a good strength as a fall back.

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## Frogreaver

> Depending on how swol the moster is as larger creatures will need to clear their behind. And where it needs to be when it gets out of the web. For example if it needs to pull back then go around it is probably losing a second action navigating.
> 
> The difficult terrain usually represents a lost action, in addition to any actions lost by the restrained effect.


Okay but i'd add that's Only IF your melee allies don't end up close to them - which in my games would be highly likely.

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## Unoriginal

Worth noting, since it is a strength check rather than an strength save, Magic Resistance does not apply on that part of the spell.

As a result Inwould say Web is likely better than Slow against demons.

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## Witty Username

> Okay but i'd add that's Only IF your melee allies don't end up close to them - which in my games would be highly likely.


Yeah, if you are in the midst of melee, slow is almost always the best spell, for a number of reasons.

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## KorvinStarmast

> I had an encounter with two venom hydras (acid-spitting nasty hydras) absolutely ruined (in a good way) with a single cast of _slow_. They failed and needed a 19+ to break out (low wis, very high STR). They got kited in circles until dead. Web would have only hit one of them max, and they'd have broken out instantly (high STR). And "not even remotely in range" beats "disadvantage on attacks" any day.


 _Takes a bow, in keeping with the character theme of shameless self promotion._ 

Yeah, I did that.  :Small Big Grin:  It was great. I also nagged the sorcerer/warlock over all of the spell slots he wasted on them ...  :Small Big Grin: 




> I dont think slow is a great spell, but two things it has in its favor over web, are that it has a bigger area and it is party friendly. On average I would say it hurts casters more too.


Yes!  As DM that 'have to roll to cast that spell' has cropped up for my NPC spell casters numerous times.

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## Ir0ns0ul

A good thing about both of them is that they dont require sight to cast, different from Hypnotic Pattern.

I dont think they are comparable because they do different things and are useful for a different type of situation. I usually go with both in my Wizards. However, my favorite one is

Web + Slow = Sleet Storm.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> A good thing about both of them is that they dont require sight to cast, different from Hypnotic Pattern.
> 
> I dont think they are comparable because they do different things and are useful for a different type of situation. I usually go with both in my Wizards. However, my favorite one is
> 
> Web + Slow = Sleet Storm.


OK, I've gotta ask: What tactics are you using with Sleet Storm to make this an effective spell?  This is the 2nd current thread with a few posters mentioning it.  Every time I look at this spell the heavy obscurement makes me think that since the party can't see into it they'd be fighting blind.  So it seems to hamper the party almost as much as the baddies.  Thoughts?

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## Witty Username

> OK, I've gotta ask: What tactics are you using with Sleet Storm to make this an effective spell?  This is the 2nd current thread with a few posters mentioning it.  Every time I look at this spell the heavy obscurement makes me think that since the party can't see into it they'd be fighting blind.  So it seems to hamper the party almost as much as the baddies.  Thoughts?


So the short version is that it is effective as a divider of large groups,
like say you have 12 enemies, with a 50/50 chance to save, at this point enemies making saves is expected because of how many rolls are going, and with the size of the effect it means that it it will take different numbers of rounds to escape the effect. So as enemies stagger out blindly it becomes trivial for martial  characters to wipe them out, it is also a pain in the butt for casters to fight through or escape due to the blindness.

The only way to defeat it is to either, expect a fighting force to blindly coordinate an organized movement out of the effect (made more complex if the DM uses location known without vision or allows a perception check to accomplish the same, which means fighter types can pick off combatants at they try to form up) or exit out of the rear of the effect (or rather full retreat).

Think of it less like a debuff and more a prison effect,
Wall of Force makes it very difficult of kill the creature trapped behind it, but your not expecting to try until the Wall of Force goes down.

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## Frogreaver

> OK, I've gotta ask: What tactics are you using with Sleet Storm to make this an effective spell?  This is the 2nd current thread with a few posters mentioning it.  Every time I look at this spell the heavy obscurement makes me think that since the party can't see into it they'd be fighting blind.  So it seems to hamper the party almost as much as the baddies.  Thoughts?


If you run heavy obscurement such that the enemies in it are hidden as opposed to just unseen then that probably impacts the spells usefulness. 

But also keeping your melee Allies from rushing a bunch of melee enemies can also be an effective plan if this is something they often do instead of resorting to ranged attacks when melee enemies are slowed. 

Also sleet storm is amazing vs enemy casters.

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## Witty Username

> If you run heavy obscurement such that the enemies in it are hidden as opposed to just unseen then that probably impacts the spells usefulness.


It makes it much stronger, as it impacts the enemies ability to coordinate effectively. Enemies know they cannot be effective inside the effect and have limited knowledge of the well being of compatriots. This leaves the opposition to blindly stumble out of the effect and hope allies are behind them as the only offensive option. So they either, accept they cannot leave the effect (Wall of Force), or attempt to leave and fight quite likely in reduced numbers (Divided and conquered).

If locations are known, they can at least attempt to coordinate an organized offensive, but it leaves them more vulnerable to opposition from outside of the effect (obscurement erases the effects of prone, so it cannot give defensive benefits even).

It is a very heads I win, tails you lose kind of spell.

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## Frogreaver

> It makes it much stronger, as it impacts the enemies ability to coordinate effectively. Enemies know they cannot be effective inside the effect and have limited knowledge of the well being of compatriots. This leaves the opposition to blindly stumble out of the effect and hope allies are behind them as the only offensive option. So they either, accept they cannot leave the effect (Wall of Force), or attempt to leave and fight quite likely in reduced numbers (Divided and conquered).
> 
> If locations are known, they can at least attempt to coordinate an organized offensive, but it leaves them more vulnerable to opposition from outside of the effect (obscurement erases the effects of prone, so it cannot give defensive benefits even).
> 
> It is a very heads I win, tails you lose kind of spell.


If obscurement is treated as hidden they can just stand still/move a few squares randomly until the effect ends.  Virtually no PC will be able to hurt them in the meantime.

If it's not treated as hidden then PC ranged attacks and a few no los spells become much more useful.

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## DigitalCharlie

One other thing that I don't see listed here for why slow can be great / general purpose: it doesn't care about condition immunities. 

There are plenty of enemies, especially as you go up in levels, who are just flat out immune to things like restrained, charmed, frightened, etc. Slow doesn't impose a condition, so the only creatures that ignore its effects are the ones who ignore any low-level spell.

So I personally take slow on a lot of characters  not because I think it's the best spell, but because the combination of great range, lack of friendly fire, lack of immunity, and ability to stack with other spell debuffs make it a pretty great swiss army knife of a spell that I can use in most fights.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> So the short version is that it is effective as a divider of large groups,
> like say you have 12 enemies, with a 50/50 chance to save, at this point enemies making saves is expected because of how many rolls are going, and with the size of the effect it means that it it will take different numbers of rounds to escape the effect. So as enemies stagger out blindly it becomes trivial for martial  characters to wipe them out, it is also a pain in the butt for casters to fight through or escape due to the blindness.
> 
> The only way to defeat it is to either, expect a fighting force to blindly coordinate an organized movement out of the effect (made more complex if the DM uses location known without vision or allows a perception check to accomplish the same, which means fighter types can pick off combatants at they try to form up) or exit out of the rear of the effect (or rather full retreat).
> 
> Think of it less like a debuff and more a prison effect,
> Wall of Force makes it very difficult of kill the creature trapped behind it, but your not expecting to try until the Wall of Force goes down.


Thanks.  Makes sense.  Sort of a 'wall' spell before you get wall spells.  I can definitely see the use of putting 1/3 of the enemies in front of the storm, 1/3 in, and 1/3 behind.  If enemies are spread out front to back, say down a long hallway this could be great.

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## 5eNeedsDarksun

> One other thing that I don't see listed here for why slow can be great / general purpose: it doesn't care about condition immunities. 
> 
> There are plenty of enemies, especially as you go up in levels, who are just flat out immune to things like restrained, charmed, frightened, etc. Slow doesn't impose a condition, so the only creatures that ignore its effects are the ones who ignore any low-level spell.
> 
> So I personally take slow on a lot of characters  not because I think it's the best spell, but because the combination of great range, lack of friendly fire, lack of immunity, and ability to stack with other spell debuffs make it a pretty great swiss army knife of a spell that I can use in most fights.


That's sort of my take.  There's another active thread with a player with a Bard looking for control spells in T2 to help out a couple of blaster types and a couple of martials.  With the AC and Dex save penalties, Slow is (baring all 6 foes saving) always going to do something to help out the effectiveness of the other 4 characters, even if the main condition isn't as impactful as some other optimal white room spell.

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