# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next > Player Help Before Creation Comes Destruction (Spheres 5e in Review)

## SangoProduction

*Preamble:*  As I mentioned, last time, I intended to do the Creation sphere, then got extremely interested in the surprisingly vast Destruction sphere. 
Creation focuses on creating objects out of thin air. It's like illusions, if illusions were tangible. Any object, from rope to lock picks, is immediately at hand. Construction can be done with a thought, and objects and the environment are manipulated such that the GM's mind explodes and the session ends with everyone just going out to get some drinks. I may be a problem, but a good drink is the solution! Speaking of which, you can create drinks using this as well, with the proper talents (if they carried over from PF).
Oh, I also learned that spell points used per sphere effect are limited to your proficiency modifier. Which is a neat change, in conjunction with the codified augment system.

*Wiki:* For those looking to follow along, the spheres 5e wiki can be found here. And the Creation sphere in specific is found here.

*Post-Review Analysis:* The size of objects you could affect has dropped off a bloody cliff compared to pathfinder. From 1 small object per level to... tiny at level 1, with an augment to become medium. Plus one size category per proficiency improvement. But Alter has really not changed at all. It's still got excessively useful talents.
That said, despite the substantially reduced combat utility of the Creation sphere (which... yeah, some could say was excessive in PF...could say), it's still got all of the utility have having [literally every mundane object you ever need] at the palm of your hands. You can create keys, crowbars, snorkels, diving masks... no oxygen tanks. We didn't get any material talents for gasses in 5e yet. But you can port them over without any issues, as they don't have incompatible mechanics. They are just new things to create. Elaborate dresses and dance shoes. A (relatively large), brilliant sign that says "Quest giver, I am here. Come to me."
And so, so, so many more uses. Literally any mundane item you want, within the size limit, is yours to have.

*Spoiler: Ratings*
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(1) Superb: You always want this if it's relevant to you. And it probably is.
(1.5) Really Good: Particularly useful bits of kit, but aren't quite must-haves. (Kept it decimal, because spreading out Good so far from Superb felt unrepresentative. But I needed a step between)
(2) Good: These make useful additions to the right builds. Among your first picks.
(3) Usable: Doesn't hurt to have. Wouldn't go out of your way for it.

(4) No: It technically has a use, but the cost to take simply doesn't outweigh the benefit.
(5) Never: Theres no non-trivial reason to pick it up, from its mechanics.
(6+) Harmful: Taking/using this is actively detrimental to your character.

<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.
[Square brackets] indicate a reliance on the group (players or DM) or campaign youre playing in, and how well it does in those select groups.

Special Ratings:
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(?) Unrated: I choose not to rate it. Often because it is just so far out of my wheelhouse, or its far too ambiguous.
(F) Flavor: This indicates that the main draw to the talent is going to be its inherent fluff or flavor, rather than raw power or utility.
(D) D***bag: Used for when your character wants to be a D***bag.


Base Sphere contains the abilities you gain from using a talent on the sphere for the first time.
*Spoiler: Base Sphere*
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*Alter:* You can alter a tiny-sized object (roughly the size of one-handed weapons for medium creatures), as an action, with the effect persisting (unless otherwise stated) for Concentration, or 1 minute. It must be nonmagical, inanimate, and unattended. 2 sp lets it persist without concentration, and 1 sp lets it affect 2 sizes larger (medium sized objects like statues, or a giant's armor). It comes with two alterations you can make.

_Repair:_ Is actually instantaneous, restoring 1d4 + key ability modifier damage to the altered object. Basically think of it as mending.
_Destroy:_ Is the same, but does damage, with an augment to bypass the "object's damage threshold," which is probably 5e's equivalent to hardness. Incidentally, this is basically strictly worse than Destruction sphere for blasting through objects, even as a cantrip, even without the Pathfinder's destruction sphere talent to ignore hardness.

*Create:* Now here's where the fun lies. It starts out fairly limited, with a default size limit of Tiny, with an augment for medium, and once again, concentration to last up to a minute, and augment to last without concentration. What can't be inherently augmented is that it must be created at a range of touch, and must be plant matter, with items that don't require mixing, or carry special properties, or knowledge you don't possess, and aren't even convincing fakes, while also having magical auras, giving away their ephemeral nature as magically created objects. You can, however, attempt an ability check to create complex objects with moving parts, although the DCs are not given.

Where it gets good (for combat) is that a 5-by-5 ft (1 inch thick) wall is only a small object. While this means that you can't create one without an augment by default, you can create 2 of those panels for 1 spell point. It tends to be one of the more useful things a creation caster could do in Pathfinder. The relatively limited size on 5e has me more hesitant on the assertion until I see more of the talents. (Though remember a 5-by-5 wall is still a small object, that does mean that a 2.5-by-5 wall is a tiny object. Since 2 panels is a size larger, then half a panel is a size smaller.)
Later: Actually, there is no Wall Master talent, nor any size-increase talents, so that wall is as good as you're getting. Unless using Complex Creation to create multiple walls over multiple turns. Not brilliant, as a 5-ft wall is less than shoulder height for a lot of people. Especially elves. Not trivial, but certainly not impassible either.



Basic Talents can be selected from the sphere, after you gain the base sphere. They tend to add functionality to the sphere. Each talent you spend can get you one of the following basic talents.
The following are groups of the basic talents.

Alter Talents are basic talents which interact with your Alter ability. (Note, for some reason, a lot of talents that should be Alter talents were placed in Other Talents on the wiki. I have placed them here.)
*Spoiler: Alter talents*
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*Change Material (1):* By far, this is one of the most underrated abilities I've seen, relative to how damned useful it is. I mean, let's say someone has a heavy wooden chest that is locked by an adamantine lock, which your rogue just can't pick. Your barbarian wants to bash through the chest, but that might destroy what's inside... Well, you turn the wood into leaves. Even if it maintains structural integrity, leaves are nowhere near as resistive to a neat slash from the rogue. Now you all escape, and even get to loot the lock without carrying around a heavy chest. If you've got more talents, you could turn glass into sand, which is a lot stealthier to get through. Also tends to be a lot easier. Even if your DM says that sand is a different state of matter than solid glass, you can still turn it into leaves, which is still good. You can turn "green wood" into dry wood, which is great for fires. You can turn grass into proper tinder. You can make your favorite tea from literally whatever you found on the ground. Your shoddy rough wool clothing is now fine silk (with appropriate Material talents). 

*Magnify/Minimize (1):* Right up there with Change Material for the best, and simultaneously, least utilized alter talent (in my experience). Enlarge a door, and it's stuck. Minimize a door, and it falls off its hinges. Or how about this: You're carrying around a stone (or perhaps a metal ball) that weighs about 20 pounds... minimized. You toss it over to someone, and stop concentration. Now they've got a suddenly 200 pound ball hurtling towards them. That is terrifying, and most won't expect it. (I would honestly use falling objects rules for that. Simply because there aren't any other rules... even in Pathfinder... No, I lie. PF has rock throwing, and you'd just use the larger weapon's die.) Or, even if your DM rules that it is not a valid weapon (and that you also can't make intentionally-oversized arrows, or the like), it can still be close to the move in Ant Man and the Wasp, where a salt shaker is thrown, and expands to block a hall way. (Although straight up Create does function as a well better. And explicitly so at that. No fancy business. But you can still describe your "create" in that fashion, which is always fun.)
Oh, and best of all? You don't need to be able to create the material in order to magnify / minimize it. So, you see that gold bullion? It's now 8 times as heavy. (Or 64 times as heavy for a spell point.) There will undoubtedly be shop keepers who know about this nonsense. At least after the first time. And you remember that adamantine lock from before? Magnify or minimize it, and it no longer fits on the lock. Magnify the lid, and it no longer seals with the rest of the chest, making the lock a moot point. Also, treasure's really heavy. Place all your treasure inside of a chest, and then minimize it, reducing the weight to an 8th of what it was before.
I could go on and on and on. There's a surprising amount of utility in simply being able to shrink and grow objects at a whim. So many new ways to approach the same problem with just this one tool.

*Forge (1):* Instantaneous duration. You just straight up change an existing item's form. So, you remember that Heavy Wooden Chest example above? Yeah, for a spell point, you can just alter it so it has a new opening. No damage, no duration, no effort. You don't even need to finish up by actually cutting through the leaf-chest-thing. It does cost a spell point to do so, but still. And although you can't change the materials without Change Material, you can take shoddy clothing and turn it into fancy clothing. Or jam a door shut by stretching and contorting it and/or the frame such that it no longer swings open. (Or unjam a faulty construction.)

*Potent Alteration (1.5):* (Seriously, why did the wiki not mark this an Alter talent?) You may now alter attended and magical objects, and even constructs, although (wielders of) such targets get Constitution saves to negate it. Still... when a barbarian comes raging at you with a battle axe, you're going to count your blessings when that axe handle becomes poison ivy. Actually, changing someone's steel armor into poison ivy is just evil. (Poison, even natural ones as mentioned, will probably require Alchemical Creation. That definitely seems reasonable...)

*Altering Burst (1.5):* I personally use Creation as a tool of precision. But sometimes, you just want to turn an entire 40-foot diameter sphere of material into something insane. Or just "destroy" it. And that lets you affect_ a lot_ more (though also unintentionally) than you could without it. 

*Transparency (2):* Still very useful, though not nearly as generally useful as the other two alter talents, Transparency lets you turn an object transparent without otherwise affecting it. Great for scouting (and finding traps in the wall), on account of not exposing yourself to any lines of effect for peeking into a room. The 5e version of this even includes the ability to make it only one-way transparent, which makes it even more useful than in PF. 

*Precise Destruction (3):* This makes you literally as good as your rogue at disabling devices. Possibly better, on account of you likely having a better casting stat than their dexterity... or maybe not. I am not sure what the meta rogue builds are in 5e. But even if you both are capped on the associated stats, that makes you literally as good as them, with a singular talent. 
(It is ranked low on account of the fact that this is simply fulfilling the rogue's role in that regard, with very little extra room for creativity, outside of inferring additional capabilities that aren't mentioned, like being able to engrave markings very easily. Like, you remember how many ways we could "disable device" that heavy wooden chest, right? Even with the same talent? Granted, those take extra thought and roleplay, compared to rolling a check. And some DMs really don't like those creative uses.)

*Greater Alter (4):* Oh boy. Using d8s instead of d4s for the pathetic damaging/repairing of objects. Congratulations.



The rest of the talents are classified under Other Talents. Which is just lazy, so I chunked them as I saw fit.

Material talents change what sorts of materials you can create and/or alter.
*Spoiler: Material talents*
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*Expanded Materials (1):* Lets you now also work with stone at level 1, as well as augment to work with water, and any solid, fragile material that is non-harmful material like glass, ice, or leather. And your objects can be explicitly materially complex, like a bow with a string, or a metal sword with a wooden hilt, or leather armor with metal straps. (Although metals are unlocked at level 5.) And anyone telling you that a stack of leaves is a sufficient replacement for a load-bearing wall of a stone building is full of it, even if the wall itself is "structurally sound" from the changing of its materials. It won't be f

*Alchemical Creation (1.5):* Now lets you create items that require mixing, subject explicitly to DM discretion. (Remember that the items have a duration, but what the items do is not reversed when the effect ends.)

*Object of Force (1.5?):* Appropriately, you need to use a spell point, but in doing so, the object you create is made of solid force, which is weightless, but rigid and unmoving (unless moved by a creature two sizes larger than it - letting you wield a weightless one handed sword of force). They have resistance to non-magical damage, and prevent incorporeal creatures from passing through (and thus one can infer that said sword of force can freely attack a ghost). The problem (aside from the cost)? No idea what the actual hit points of objects of force are in 5e. A reasonable assumption is "It's as strong as your strongest material you can make for the same cost," but it simply doesn't tell you.



*Spoiler: Other Talents*
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*Complex Creation (1.5):* The free augment of being able to create "a themed creation" is truly the one that has that open-endedness which makes the Creation sphere so incredible. Obviously, the "themed creation" must be within your size limit (even though it doesn't explicitly mention that). It allows for a huge number of items to be created simultaneously (such as that quiver full of arrows, or an armory full of weapons and armor, if you have such a large creation size). The 1 sp version is not fully explained, despite a lot of text. But the "maximum create size" may or may not be contingent on whether or not you spend the spell point to enable a larger create size.

*Restrictive Creation (2):* Being able to just encase the target in concrete is a pretty cool thing to do.

*Magical Creations(?):* Your created items count as magical for overcoming resistance/immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage. I mean, if you create your allies' weapons, then that's cool. But if they are weapon users, and you aren't specifically creating a force object to beat a ghost, then they probably have one that they'd prefer to use.

*Exquisite Detail (F):* The bonus to detect objects as fake is meaningless, making it at most a DC 16 by level 20. The ability check to create detailed and complicated objects with potentially double proficiency though... very useful. And detecting magic on the object requires a check against sphere DC, which is better than 

*Catapult (5):* Objects you create can freely fly off up to 60 feet. If you're doing it for damage, you're doing Creation wrong. Also, Destruction sphere does it better. In every way. Because it's the Destruction sphere. If you are just wanting to put your objects "over there," then the Reach metasphere talent in the Universal sphere does it much, much better. As does Telekinesis. Now, there's a very, incredibly niche use of needing to create it both far away, and launch it out of line of sight. Which basically is not a situation you will come across save for once in 10 campaigns.




Variants are restrictions upon the use of the sphere, but often gives something in recompense. They are more here for flavor than for power.
*Spoiler: Variants*
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*Fission:* Reduce your max hp in order to create objects. Think of it like a bone caster growing and then breaking off a bone for their weapon. Or a slime leaving behind a part of themselves which acts as a wall. Gives you a talent for the trouble.

*Limited Creation:* Removes either the ability to create or alter for an extra talent. Create is honestly, sadly, the less useful partner in this relationship in 5e. Total other way around in PF, since you used to get 1 small object per level, and Wall Master which made the "small walls" 10-by-10 panels. Incredibly impactful in combat. Perhaps disproportionately so.

*Material Focus:* Only get to create/alter a given type of material (think Earth or Metal benders from Avatar the Last Air Bender), in exchange for a talent. A generally bad trade, with heavy restrictions on the sphere's usefulness.

*Material Mimic:* To create and alter materials, you must be in physical contact with another such object. (Think Kevin 11 from Ben 10... the sequel where they were teenagers.) That's a generally really easy condition to meet. Especially when you have a particular predilection towards turning all of the objects you see into piles of leaves for some reason. Maybe you're British.

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## Goobahfish

This is a bit opaque without some context. Is there a link to the relevant information this post relates to?

One thing that I am always a bit concerned about with spell types like 'creation' is that the scope of such abilities are heavily subject to DM fiat. Moreover, the limitations on such abilities are very relevant.

"I create a metal ball in the monster's brainstem!"

"I create a key for the locked door!"

The issue in the former is that it shows that the concept for the ability is potentially overpowered and in the latter it shows a fundamental issue with 'magic'.

Obviously, the location, time and creation/alterations/banishment of physical matter needs to be restricted to avoid one spell solving all of D&D (i.e., summon solution). Generally in my homebrew I have limited these kinds of abilities in the following ways:
#1: Element. You can summon/manipulate one element. Characters can do more but that represents a specialisation/generalisation (i.e., investment in multiple elements).
#2: Time. In non-combat scenarios there are few limitations. Manipulating wood to smuggle treasure in the wall of a ship is cool roleplay. No need to restrict. Making an anvil appear 60 ft about a monster's head needs restrictions.
#3: Information. Creating things isn't as simple as 'whatever you can imagine'. I can imagine a lot of things, but I can't even draw what I imagine well. I think the same should apply to magic. Just because you can imagine the Mona Lisa (which let's be honest, you can't really) doesn't translate to I can 'illusion-art' a Mona Lisa. Make a magic check please. If I 'create an arrow', it doesn't mean it will fly straight etc etc. It is why the pathfinder 'knock' (make a open check with a big bonus) is a much more reasonable spell than 3e 'knock' (open a door).

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## SangoProduction

> This is a bit opaque without some context. Is there a link to the relevant information this post relates to?
> 
> One thing that I am always a bit concerned about with spell types like 'creation' is that the scope of such abilities are heavily subject to DM fiat. Moreover, the limitations on such abilities are very relevant.
> 
> "I create a metal ball in the monster's brainstem!"
> 
> "I create a key for the locked door!"
> 
> The issue in the former is that it shows that the concept for the ability is potentially overpowered and in the latter it shows a fundamental issue with 'magic'.
> ...


Ah I forgot to include the link to the wiki. Thanks for reminding me. http://spheres5e.wikidot.com/creation
It does answer your inquiries, but it's quite a bit of information so I'll try and do so here.
Creation requires an empty space that you can see that is sufficient to contain the created object within range (default touch). You are restricted to vegetable matter of no larger than tiny size (without augmentation). (Before material talents, levels, and augmentation.) It takes an action.
For dropping anvils overhead, there are rules for that. Specifically that it does basically 0 damage, along with an attack roll or dex save to avoid.

And the most appropriate thing to do with things like "I create a key," is to ask how they figure out the dimensions needed, "Well, I root around with my lock picks to and see the appropriate..." well, that's a disable device check. But clearly, they want a key to be able to open and close it freely later. If it's "I've been this town's locksmith for years, I've no doubt made this lock before," then the intent is to look make use of his backstory connection to this town in conjunction with his conjuration to look like a perfect locksmith with the right key for this particular job. In which case it could be a sort of craft or disable device check. Roll twice. If both would succeed, you are right, and remember the key you need. If only one did, you still have to take the standard time as you figure out the exact implementation of the lock.

Or for "I want to turn his beer into coffee," one would ask "for what purpose?" If it's just "To mess with them," you, as a DM, know how to respond - make it funny. If it's "Because his race is deathly allergic to coffee..." Well, one, how does your character know that? You're going to need to make a damned fine stealth check, and even if you manage to do it unseen, that doesn't mean he wouldn't taste it...

This sort of stuff requires more communication and roleplay than stereotypical "I roll diplomacy. I got a 20. Is he my friend?" I honestly feel that is probably a good thing. At least to have as an option.

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## Segev

One note I am not sure you caught: the size of objects you can alter or create without augmentation goes up as you level, so you can get, among other things, your larger wall panels at higher levels.

I suspect the reason for so few of the Talents being labeled "(alter)" despite requiring alteration to work is because Variants often grant only subcategories of free Talents, and they wanted to keep those in "Other Talents" from being freebies. Except that no Creation Variants grant "(alter)" talents. Only any talent or a specific talent. So yeah, a little weird. 

For even more fun with some of your favorites, consider Alteration Burst with Magnify/Minimize. A gentle application would be shrinking the entire chest and contents together. Imagine growing every tiny object in range to medium size. All those coins in people's pouches now are each as big as those people! ...okay, you can't do that to the coins in their belt pouches, but still, scatter some coins or blocks and do it for your barriers.

And, of course, who needs the destroy part of the talent when you can use expanded materials to turn things into water?

Alteration burst with precise destruction could also pick every lock in the burst, for what that's worth.

And of course, Forge with Alteration Burst lets you change the shape of a lot of objects at once. Maybe you have change materials, too, and would like to change every blade of grass in a ten foot radius sphere into a caltrop of wood? Or every coin and gem in the snooty noble's vault into rabbit droppings?

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## SangoProduction

> One note I am not sure you caught: the size of objects you can alter or create without augmentation goes up as you level, so you can get, among other things, your larger wall panels at higher levels.
> 
> I suspect the reason for so few of the Talents being labeled "(alter)" despite requiring alteration to work is because Variants often grant only subcategories of free Talents, and they wanted to keep those in "Other Talents" from being freebies. Except that no Creation Variants grant "(alter)" talents. Only any talent or a specific talent. So yeah, a little weird. 
> 
> For even more fun with some of your favorites, consider Alteration Burst with Magnify/Minimize. A gentle application would be shrinking the entire chest and contents together. Imagine growing every tiny object in range to medium size. All those coins in people's pouches now are each as big as those people! ...okay, you can't do that to the coins in their belt pouches, but still, scatter some coins or blocks and do it for your barriers.
> 
> And, of course, who needs the destroy part of the talent when you can use expanded materials to turn things into water?
> 
> Alteration burst with precise destruction could also pick every lock in the burst, for what that's worth.
> ...


I did know that the size improves at proficiency levels. It's just easier to state that it improves once, and then work with the level 1 version rather than picking a random level each time. But remains a remarkable downgrade from pathfinder.

Very cool idea about the coins. Unfortunately, Tiny is the size of a house cat, or roughly half the size of a gnome. Or, as specifically given in the creation sphere, the size of a medium creature's one-handed weapon. The spell increases the size by 1 step (or 2+ with augment), meaning that those coins might conceivably become house-cat sized. Which can be inconvenient to move past. Especially if a lot of them were targeted, as stated.

You also cannot change the "state of matter" of your selected target with Change Materials. 

I'll be honest. I did only briefly consider whether or not you can apply the two talents at the same time. I took them as being separate abilities that used alter, like Repair and Destroy. It's not particularly clear th-... Oh. Could that be why they are (alter) talents, when no other alter-affecting talents are alter talents? That could make sense... But, since they don't actually offer explanations of their talent categories, that's a total guess. But I think that's the case.

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## Segev

"Tiny" is the smallest size category. Anything smaller than Small is Tiny. You just need to augment to increase the size category twice to turn anything you can identify as an object into at least a Medium version of itself.

And there is absolutely zero reason you cannot apply as many Talents as you can afford to a base Sphere ability, unless the wording of the talents prohibits it. That's one of the Selling points for 5pheres: that versatility.

There is nothing stopping you from turning a gold coin into a golden statue using Forge and augmented Maximize together for 2 sp in one action. The only question is whether the DM rules that the Forge duration overrides all the durations, or only the base Alter power's duration. If he rules the latter, the statue turns into a figurine after a number of minutes equal to your level.

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## SangoProduction

> "Tiny" is the smallest size category. Anything smaller than Small is Tiny. You just need to augment to increase the size category twice to turn anything you can identify as an object into at least a Medium version of itself.
> 
> And there is absolutely zero reason you cannot apply as many Talents as you can afford to a base Sphere ability, unless the wording of the talents prohibits it. That's one of the Selling points for 5pheres: that versatility.
> 
> There is nothing stopping you from turning a gold coin into a golden statue using Forge and augmented Maximize together for 2 sp in one action. The only question is whether the DM rules that the Forge duration overrides all the durations, or only the base Alter power's duration. If he rules the latter, the statue turns into a figurine after a number of minutes equal to your level.


Ah. So every single object can be increased to at least medium size. Now that's... very a notable.

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## Segev

Okay, it isn't well spelled-out, but I think I have figured out why certain Talents are labeled "(alter)" and others that clearly require use of Alter do not: Repair and Destroy are technically (alter) abilities. When you use Alter, you choose one (alter) ability you have  repair, destroy, or one of the three (alter) Talents if you have them  that you're doing. 

The Talents that work with Alter but are not (alter) Talents can be applied to modify any of the (alter) uses. 

In other words, you cannot use Repair and Forge at the same time; each Alter use is one (alter) effect. You CAN use Forge and Magnify/Minimize at the same time.

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