# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 4e >  Foreshortening and 4e

## Mark Hall

So, I'm cold, so I'm thinking about things in a vain attempt to keep my head warm. And one of the things I'm thinking about is 4e.

So, for 3e, there was an idea called "E6", where you played 3e pretty much like normal, but you stopped gaining levels at level 6. Beyond that, you got a feat every _x_ XP. This resulted in much simpler builds and was designed to hit and stick to the "sweet spot" of the game. Variants, like E10, were also suggested, but E6 was the original, to my knowledge. (I did one for Star Wars Saga edition called H1, where you were always a 1st level character)

If you were to do that to 4e, where would you stick your E? What would be the point where people stopped gaining levels, and advancing was now down to magic items and feats?

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## Marcloure

Probably 10th level, or 11th if you want to unlock a paragon path. Personally, I would go for E10; paragon feats are mandatory to catch up with the math, since +2 to attack and saves is significant in a way that a +1 isn't. Also, if you are getting only the initial bonus from a paragon path, some of them would be much stronger than others, so the thematic choice wouldn't hold.

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## Keledrath

The clean breakpoints I see are
5: Second Daily
7: Third Encounter
9: Third Daily
10: End of Heroic
11: Entry to paragon, "Name" level with the Name being your Paragon Path
16: Final feature of your Paragon Path, and sometimes the main draw of a path (like Malec-Keth Jannisary)
20: End of Paragon
21: Entry to Epic

Another option that might be decent for the E11 version would be feats after acquiring a certain number of bonus feats that allow you to get your U12, F16, and maybe even D20. That would probably be my preferred break point, since 11 gives you a lot of (usually) interesting build and tactical options, with the F11, E11, and your AP feature, while U12, F16, and D20 are a lot less commonly game changers, but can still be very interesting.

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## Nightgaun7

I'm tempted to say "E16", partly because harking to E6 is nice, but mainly because Paragon Paths are such a huge part of 4e to me. That said, it doesn't cleanly follow the E6 ethos of keeping things simple - for that, I suppose E10 is the cleanest break.

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## Duff

I'd be a bit inclined to go E1
You've got your 1D, 1E and 2 AW plus features, talents, race and background.  So by D&D standards quite a few options for a starting character.
But not enough to cause anyone to have to think too hard
And HP are high enough without bloating, the math hasn't gone "off" yet, it all still fits on a single page with equipment on the back and the feat list is more manageable without paragon or epic

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## tcrudisi

I would do level 7. The 3rd encounter power really helps give a lot more choices and it gives you enough other abilities to be fun. I always found level 7 to be a very build-defining level, anyway. Except for Sorcerer, I feel like most every other class got a build-defining power at level 7.

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