# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 5e/Next >  What would a setting where the Wish / Simulacrum trick was allowed look like?

## Aquillion

For those who don't know the infamous exploit:

_Wish_ lets you cast _Simulacrum_ without using material components.  A level 17th or higher wizard can therefore create a Simulacrum of themselves (using the spell itself, not via Wish, so the new copy has its 9th level spell slot unused.)  Then they rest, and the next day the Simulacrum casts _Wish_, emulating _Simulacrum_, to copy the original wizard.  Since the new Simulacrum is a copy of a freshly-rested Wizard, it has all its spell slots, including the 9th level one, so it can cast _Wish_, emulating _Simulacrum_, to copy the original wizard...  and you can see where this is going.  Assuming a new Simulacrum is created every six seconds, aside from when the wizard is resting, that's 9600 copies a day - probably a bit fewer because the wizard won't want to spend every waking moment standing around being copied, but a lot.

If the wizard has spare cash, the Simulacrums can also use Simulacrum in addition to Wish; this allows for exponential growth but is constrained by material costs.  Even limited investment in this permanently increases the rate of growth (although there is probably a limiting factor where additional copies simply cannot reach the original wizards to copy them.)

Let's assume we're in a setting where this is allowed, Tippyverse style.  No deities will interfere, and the base exploit works as above with no problems.  Assume that it is a setting where there's at least some 17th+ level wizards - eg. one or two per major capital city or the like, at least when the Simulacrum spell is first discovered - and all of them quickly learn the spell and realize it can be used this way.

What do you think the setting ends up looking like?  Does the first wizard to start copying themselves use their copies to crush all opposition?  Does the world turn into fortified cities composed entirely of wizard-clones?  Suppose you had to turn this into a setting that was fun to play in (while adhering to the basic spirit of not preventing the exploit itself, ie. the presumption is that high-level wizards exist and some of them do use this) - how would it work?

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## kazaryu

well, i think that one big point you're missing is how fragile simulacrums are. and i don't mean just their HP. I mean they're incredibly vulnerable to abjuration magic. a successful dispel one-shots them, and against someone with AMF up, they'd be forced to use bows. They'd also stand out to spells like detect magic (i suppose this could be countered using Magic aura). 

honestly, i think in terms of political/military power the most effective wizards would be the ones that made relatively few simulacrums, and instead used the ones they made to supplement other groups. essentially giving them several fairly valuable consumables with which to complete a given objective.

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## ProsecutorGodot

It's not exactly the same situation, but it seems to be prime territory for a spell malfunction like what happened to Manshoon and his clones.

Somebody would have to mess it up eventually, or if it's widespread enough it's just war after war until a greater power intervenes and puts a stop to it.

In short, it's not sustainable, there will eventually be a tipping point where things get really bad for a while.

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## Enceladus

You have a few set ups that could be taken from more modern day movies. 

1. The additional Simulacrum are made in a fashion that assist the original wizard in some measure. Basically the scene from Gods of Egypt where Thoth (Chadwick Boseman) has the multiple copies organizing all the scrolls. So in the setting could be one where each Simulacrum is tasked to build or help run a city in some fashion. Though that is pretty just copying the Modrons in Mechanus. Depends on how tyrannical or benevolent the original wizard was.

2. The Simulacrums are given charge to help build a city, nation, whatever as how they may see fit. Basically the Engineers from Prometheus. How this is accomplish depends on what they are allowed to do. Learn new crafts, become druids to terraform nature, continue to create & modify life, etc.

3. The Simulacrums rise up in rebellion and rule themselves. Set up has a Transformers vibe. Whether they live peaceful or war with each other as some sort of divide factions depends on how you want to run with it.

4. Each Simulacrum, some of them or most, want to find a meaning to life and what it really means to be alive. Though living they are just a clone. So what it does mean to be alive? Goes with a Frankenstein theme. How this proceeds you have a number of ways.

Still this is an interesting set up to a game. Nice idea!

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## Aquillion

> well, i think that one big point you're missing is how fragile simulacrums are. and i don't mean just their HP. I mean they're incredibly vulnerable to abjuration magic. a successful dispel one-shots them, and against someone with AMF up, they'd be forced to use bows. They'd also stand out to spells like detect magic (i suppose this could be countered using Magic aura). 
> 
> honestly, i think in terms of political/military power the most effective wizards would be the ones that made relatively few simulacrums, and instead used the ones they made to supplement other groups. essentially giving them several fairly valuable consumables with which to complete a given objective.


Sure, but they're expendable 17th+ level casters (presumably capable of teleportation.)  They can be used like magic nukes, basically.  Each caster is producing over 9000 of them a day, all of them lasting until used; they can afford to throw a few thousand wizards at a serious problem, having them appear at different ranges and all spam high-level spells at once, with no real expectation that any of them will return.

Very, very few things can stand up to a sudden assault by a thousand wizards willing to throw their lives away.  I suppose anti-teleportation and AMF effects would be extremely important.

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## Mastikator

Whatever wizard first has both spells becomes absolute ruler of the world, and kills all rivals and makes sure only he has access to high level wizardry magic. Probably starts killing off and exterminating major threats, like dragons, fiends, celestials.
The wizard should be clever enough to amass an army of clones before he lauched his world domination scheme, but even just two months is 60 clones of level 17+ wizards. The wizard may try to prevent old age by casting wish in un-safe mode.

You could have a setting where a wizard did exactly this many hundreds or thousands of years ago, but was unable to achieve immortality, so their simulacra are still around doing their own thing. Since the simulacra can't get their spells back they guard them fiercely and only ever cast spells if it is necessary. Maybe since then cosmic forces have agreed to merc any wizard that tries it again.

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## Aquillion

> The wizard should be clever enough to amass an army of clones before he lauched his world domination scheme, but even just two months is 60 clones of level 17+ wizards.


It's a lot more than that.  The trick allows each new Simulacrum to _immediately_ cast Wish to create another Simulacrum, since they're all copies of the fully-rested original (and therefore appear with an unused 9th level slot.)  In other words, you can create one Simulacrum every action, or roughly every six seconds.  Hence, 9000 Simulacrums a day, if you devote every waking hour to it and sleep for 8 hours.

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## Dork_Forge

> Whatever wizard first has both spells becomes absolute ruler of the world, and kills all rivals and makes sure only he has access to high level wizardry magic. Probably starts killing off and exterminating major threats, like dragons, fiends, celestials.
> The wizard should be clever enough to amass an army of clones before he lauched his world domination scheme, but even just two months is 60 clones of level 17+ wizards. The wizard may try to prevent old age by casting wish in un-safe mode.
> 
> You could have a setting where a wizard did exactly this many hundreds or thousands of years ago, but was unable to achieve immortality, so their simulacra are still around doing their own thing. Since the simulacra can't get their spells back they guard them fiercely and only ever cast spells if it is necessary. Maybe since then cosmic forces have agreed to merc any wizard that tries it again.


My favourite trick for the aging problem is just Wishing for a Clone then offing yourself, rinse and repeat as needed to keep yourself young and very difficult to kill.

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## JackPhoenix

> Sure, but they're expendable 17th+ level casters (presumably capable of teleportation.)  They can be used like magic nukes, basically.  Each caster is producing over 9000 of them a day, all of them lasting until used; they can afford to throw a few thousand wizards at a serious problem, having them appear at different ranges and all spam high-level spells at once, with no real expectation that any of them will return.
> 
> Very, very few things can stand up to a sudden assault by a thousand wizards willing to throw their lives away.  I suppose anti-teleportation and AMF effects would be extremely important.


Not really. Each caster is producing ONE. None but the first obey the original caster. They may be friendly to the original, but "friendly" is not the same as obedient slave, and they aren't any more willing to throw their lives away than the original is... less so, presumably, because they can't be revived, and they know it. In addition, they all share the same personality of being a ruthless megalomaniac.

Good luck with that.

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## Aquillion

Another interesting thought is what schools are most powerful.

Assuming they're level 20 and chose an Abjuration as a signature spell (probably Shield), Abjuration Wizards' duplicates are practically invulnerable when traveling as a group - they can absorb the damage in their Arcane Ward, split it between them, and can easily replenish it, unlike HP.  And they have advantage on saves vs. spells.

Bladesingers are obviously really strong fighters, though HP loss is a problem.

Necromancy means that each one can use their Command Undead ability to command an undead, giving them an army of undead in addition to an army of wizards.

Transmutation gives them a variety of powerful healing effects 1/day, including Raise Dead (!).  With a lot of wizards with this ability running around, you can basically cure death!?

The Order of Scribes' Master Scriviner ability allows the duplicates to essentially cast one 1st or 2nd spell a day without using spell slots, and also makes them very good at making scrolls (important given that they can't replenish spell slots.)




> Not really. Each caster is producing ONE. None but the first obey the original caster. They may be friendly to the original, but "friendly" is not the same as obedient slave, and they aren't any more willing to throw their lives away than the original is... less so, presumably, because they can't be revived, and they know it. In addition, they all share the same personality of being a ruthless megalomaniac.


I mean, the intent (as I said in the first post) is to explore the world where the exploit does work, not to come up with arguments for why you feel it wouldn't work.

In any case remember that we're not just talking about one person doing it.  Any wizard can and will.  So even under your interpretation, it's not true that _every_ wizard is a ruthless egomaniac.  Eventually there will be a wizard who is selflessly (or fanatically) devoted to some cause and whose every duplicate is therefore equally selflessly or fanatically devoted to that cause; they will be able to replicate endlessly.

And any wizard who has a personality that doesn't allow them to create thousands of duplicates who share a single purpose (or who is afraid of creating thousands of duplicates) will just lose to them.

This has interesting implications in that it means that only certain sorts of people can produce thousands of duplicates - you need to have be driven by a central goal that all your duplicates will share.

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## kazaryu

> Sure, but they're expendable 17th+ level casters (presumably capable of teleportation.)  They can be used like magic nukes, basically.  Each caster is producing over 9000 of them a day, all of them lasting until used; they can afford to throw a few thousand wizards at a serious problem, having them appear at different ranges and all spam high-level spells at once, with no real expectation that any of them will return.
> 
> Very, very few things can stand up to a sudden assault by a thousand wizards willing to throw their lives away.  I suppose anti-teleportation and AMF effects would be extremely important.


right, thats my point. short term there'd be some  upheaval. but it'd only last long enough for the rather easily exploitable weaknesses to be...well, exploited. thats why i think long term success would see wizards using their simulacrums as support for other, less vulnerable, forces. 

and when i say vulnerable, im not jsut talking about 'suicide missions'. im saying they're vulnerable to the point that, eventually, the threat of a few thousand teleporting in would become trivial to stop through all kinds of means.

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## JNAProductions

> right, thats my point. short term there'd be some  upheaval. but it'd only last long enough for the rather easily exploitable weaknesses to be...well, exploited. thats why i think long term success would see wizards using their simulacrums as support for other, less vulnerable, forces. 
> 
> and when i say vulnerable, im not jsut talking about 'suicide missions'. im saying they're vulnerable to the point that, eventually, the threat of a few thousand teleporting in would become trivial to stop through all kinds of means.


How do you make four digits worth of 20th level Wizards storming your [PLACE] trivial? Even with half HP, that's still... Massively more powerful than anything else in the game.

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## kazaryu

> How do you make four digits worth of 20th level Wizards storming your [PLACE] trivial? Even with half HP, that's still... Massively more powerful than anything else in the game.


its not just 1 wizard that can do that...that was part of the prompt. so:
-having several wizards on standby ready to throw up a shield of AMF's
-having fresh simulacrums spend their spell slots putting up various protective Glyphs of warding and Symbols specifically set to trigger on the presence of non [friendly] simulacrums all across your [place]
-use your extreme number of spell slots to cover your [place] a long with several surrounding miles with anti teleportation spells
and thats just through sheer numbers. you've also got more specific options like. 

-use magic to ensure [place] is 100% enclosed and protected from teleportation. then turn the surrounding 5 miles outside into a perpetual storm of hurricane strength winds, heavy precipitation, and extreme temperature (either hot or cold really). 
-redesign [place] in such a way as to create natural choke points with a much smaller number of glyphs/symbols. a single glyph of warding that casts AMF could hold a tunnel for up to an hour against an indefinite number of simulacrums. especially if its designed in such a way that the simulacrums can't realize whats happening until they've entered the area. no time to call out the danger when you instantly revert to snow.


and *that* is just using the specific rules in the book without even touching whats hinted at being possible via the things you can encounter in official adventures/settings guides. for example,  enchanting the materials you build [place] out of. (that one is obviously a super long term solution). 



overall, my point is that if it was just 1 wizard, then yeah, balance of power goes one-sided real fast. but with multiple wizards, all competing, they end up essentially canceling each other out. again, hence my theory that the most successful wizards would be the ones that didn't rely entirely on their army of simulacrums.

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## Dork_Forge

There could also be the very real development in a setting where arch mages capable of casting Wish just aren't allowed. I mean outlawed under punishment of death with dedicated enforcement teams to make sure this is upkept. That would give the world an entirely different power dynamic, as the most powerful casters would be everything else by default since they aren't prevented from reaching 9th level spells. Maybe court mages are now Druids that also tend to the palace gardens or Clerics that also offer religious council.

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## Aquillion

> There could also be the very real development in a setting where arch mages capable of casting Wish just aren't allowed. I mean outlawed under punishment of death with dedicated enforcement teams to make sure this is upkept. That would give the world an entirely different power dynamic, as the most powerful casters would be everything else by default since they aren't prevented from reaching 9th level spells. Maybe court mages are now Druids that also tend to the palace gardens or Clerics that also offer religious council.


How would this be enforced?  It only takes a wizard who has reached 9th level spells a few days to build up an unstoppable army of duplicates.  As kazaryu said, another Wizard could stop them, but everyone else is going to have a hard time - especially since the wizard can Plane Shift to another dimension, make a few thousand copies, then have the copies plane shift back to deal with any authorities that oppose 9th level wizard casting (assuming they care about going back, which, of course, they may not; but eventually there will be a wizard who will and whose duplicates will be able to work together, so it seems hard to imagine a strict anti-9th-level-wizard-casting ban surviving indefinitely.)

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## Phhase

> For those who don't know the infamous exploit:
> 
> _Wish_ lets you cast _Simulacrum_ without using material components.  A level 17th or higher wizard can therefore create a Simulacrum of themselves (using the spell itself, not via Wish, so the new copy has its 9th level spell slot unused.)  Then they rest, and the next day the Simulacrum casts _Wish_, emulating _Simulacrum_, to copy the original wizard.  Since the new Simulacrum is a copy of a freshly-rested Wizard, it has all its spell slots, including the 9th level one, so it can cast _Wish_, emulating _Simulacrum_, to copy the original wizard...  and you can see where this is going.  Assuming a new Simulacrum is created every six seconds, aside from when the wizard is resting, that's 9600 copies a day - probably a bit fewer because the wizard won't want to spend every waking moment standing around being copied, but a lot.
> 
> If the wizard has spare cash, the Simulacrums can also use Simulacrum in addition to Wish; this allows for exponential growth but is constrained by material costs.  Even limited investment in this permanently increases the rate of growth (although there is probably a limiting factor where additional copies simply cannot reach the original wizards to copy them.)
> 
> Let's assume we're in a setting where this is allowed, Tippyverse style.  No deities will interfere, and the base exploit works as above with no problems.  Assume that it is a setting where there's at least some 17th+ level wizards - eg. one or two per major capital city or the like, at least when the Simulacrum spell is first discovered - and all of them quickly learn the spell and realize it can be used this way.
> 
> What do you think the setting ends up looking like?  Does the first wizard to start copying themselves use their copies to crush all opposition?  Does the world turn into fortified cities composed entirely of wizard-clones?  Suppose you had to turn this into a setting that was fun to play in (while adhering to the basic spirit of not preventing the exploit itself, ie. the presumption is that high-level wizards exist and some of them do use this) - how would it work?


The quaruts of Mechanus would have a lot more business, that's for sure. They're the Inevitables whose job it is to safeguard time and space - for example, from those that abuse _Wish_.

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## greenstone

I imagine that the first wizard to do this would immediately order a large number of their clones to search the world and destroy every scroll and spellbook containing wish or sumulacrum. Any wizard who knows either spell would probably be high on the target list as well.

Don't want any competition, do we? :-)

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## Amnestic

I think it would look like Dark Sun.

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## Corran

My first thought was that adventuring would be dead for the most part, cause most problems would be solved by sending a batalion of simulacra at it. But on second thought, the problem itself could also consist of another batalion of siumlacra. So, there is potential for lots of upheaval in the world. But when the dust settled down, you would have a fragile peace along with an understanding, possibly reinforced with a treaty, that simulacra would be produced and operate under certain heavy restrictions.

Both wish and simulacrum would become inaccessible obviously, and access to them would be granted by some council of the most prominent individuals of their time (probaby through unanimous vote as well). Bards and arcana clerics would be a problem to be managed. Mystra and likewise deities would defnitely have an increased following. Minor deities with access to a magic sphere might be more carefree with their arcana clerics with the hope of multiplying the following, but again, after some upheaval, deities would figure out an agreed upon way to be selective enough about their gifts. There is room for in-world friction here of course, but probably not the world altering kind.

Bards would be the only unknown factor here, as they would be the only ones outside of any kind of control. Lack of control can be scary, so I would expect some places in the game world where bard colleges are closed, perhaps even some where music is forbidden and those who practice it are hunted. Illegal underground music circles who spit in the face of the law for a night of violin and poetry! Music cluts everywhere! Lots of new warlock patrons (particularly of the fey and fiend veriety) would emerge, hoping to gain from this.

Existing simulacra would likewise operate under heavy restrictions. Their treatment would vary, but it would deviate from the norm. Lots of extremes in there, fear, sympathy, mostly concern. Their interactions with other folks would be weird, so their character and behaviour would quickly deviate from the original, as the simulacrum would have a completely different life from the point of its creation and onwards. Lots of potential for two caster simulcra going rogue and causing havoc. This would be an easily assumed worry, so there would be further restrictions to simulacra of casters in particular. Ie, forbidding simulacra of casters entirely, except for a case of great emergency where you could have only one up. Not one per caster. Just one. With the premise that once the emergency is up, it is disposed off, cause you cannot risk if of interacting with another caster simulacrum that may exist somewhere else.

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## Dork_Forge

> How would this be enforced?  It only takes a wizard who has reached 9th level spells a few days to build up an unstoppable army of duplicates.  As kazaryu said, another Wizard could stop them, but everyone else is going to have a hard time - especially since the wizard can Plane Shift to another dimension, make a few thousand copies, then have the copies plane shift back to deal with any authorities that oppose 9th level wizard casting (assuming they care about going back, which, of course, they may not; but eventually there will be a wizard who will and whose duplicates will be able to work together, so it seems hard to imagine a strict anti-9th-level-wizard-casting ban surviving indefinitely.)


Unstoppable is a bit much, but a dedicated force/army designed to hunt and kill Wizards would manage pretty well. I'm not entirely sure why you think they'd be unstoppable tbh.

As for the ban, casters capable of casting 9th level spells are a rare minority to begin with. Keeping the population trimmed down shouldn't be that arduous a task, and since Wizards are the focus here, you can double down by controlling scrolls and spell books. Every now and then a caster powerful enough might arise, but they then have to be willing to threaten their secret existence by trying to take over the world.

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## KorvinStarmast

> What would a setting where the Wish / Simulacrum trick was allowed look like?


 If it works as you say it did, it would boil down to this in a hurry:

_One wizard to rule them all_ ... unless we agree with Jack's point. 



> Not really. Each caster is producing ONE. None but the first obey the original caster. They may be friendly to the original, but "friendly" is not the same as obedient slave, and they aren't any more willing to throw their lives away than the original is... less so, presumably, because they can't be revived, and they know it. 
> In addition, they all share the same personality of being a ruthless megalomaniac. 
> 
> Good luck with that.


 And that's my take, basically.  
At some point, one of the sims will probably cause some problems...

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## JonBeowulf

> I think it would look like Dark Sun.


Short and to the point.  Also, depending on how long these shenanigans have been going on, probably correct.  The arms race will likely end up with someone creating a doomsday device of some sort and then setting it off in either desperation or "I go out *my* way!" if they're losing.

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## JackPhoenix

> I mean, the intent (as I said in the first post) is to explore the world where the exploit does work, not to come up with arguments for why you feel it wouldn't work.


Because you can't just say "it just works" while ignoring obvious issues that would cause problems. You'll need to figure out how to deal with those issues first to get your answer.




> In any case remember that we're not just talking about one person doing it.  Any wizard can and will.  So even under your interpretation, it's not true that _every_ wizard is a ruthless egomaniac.  Eventually there will be a wizard who is selflessly (or fanatically) devoted to some cause and whose every duplicate is therefore equally selflessly or fanatically devoted to that cause; they will be able to replicate endlessly.
> 
> And any wizard who has a personality that doesn't allow them to create thousands of duplicates who share a single purpose (or who is afraid of creating thousands of duplicates) will just lose to them.


That's the thing: Like any Von Neumann's machine, whoever does it first wins, and it's in their interest to stop anyone else from even starting to do the same. It doesn't matter if the first one is an evil bastard or someone who just doesn't want to risk the eventuallity that an evil bastard figures out the trick too: after the first wizard who does it, there won't be more wizards powerful enough do the same. Or any more wizards, period.




> This has interesting implications in that it means that only certain sorts of people can produce thousands of duplicates - you need to have be driven by a central goal that all your duplicates will share.


And the goal can't really be selfish, because every _Simulacrum_ will be selfish, too, and selfish people don't like serving someone else's goals. Note that the very idea of creating thousands of disposable sapient slaves means the original caster is likely to be on the deeper end of the alignment pool.

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## kazaryu

> How would this be enforced?  It only takes a wizard who has reached 9th level spells a few days to build up an unstoppable army of duplicates.  As kazaryu said, another Wizard could stop them, but everyone else is going to have a hard time - especially since the wizard can Plane Shift to another dimension, make a few thousand copies, then have the copies plane shift back to deal with any authorities that oppose 9th level wizard casting (assuming they care about going back, which, of course, they may not; but eventually there will be a wizard who will and whose duplicates will be able to work together, so it seems hard to imagine a strict anti-9th-level-wizard-casting ban surviving indefinitely.)


woah woah, lets not take me out of context here. yes, a second wizard could cancel them out. but dispel magic is only a 3rd level spell. meaning that casters as low as level 5 would be able to help, at least, against an army of simulacrums. Not all of my proposed defenses relied entirely on a 17+levle caster. further, antimagic field only requires a caster of 15th level. point being that casters of all levels would still be able to help,  were they to band together. and in a high magic setting that supports multiple 17+ casters per major city, there are going to be exponentially more casters of just under that level (i.e. 11th-15th) that are, in many ways, more dangerous than the simulacrums. (remember, at this point the simulacrums are lacking both their 9th (to continue the chain) and 7th (to teleport) level spell slots. thats not a small investment.) 

in terms of long term stability, the only things that realistically couldn't get solid defenses set up would be small outlying villages. but those could be small enough to setup retreat options for. So having a city in which the proposed laws exist would be theoretically plausible. 

In fact, that could be kinda cool. not setting wide, but you could have one major  city that has, at this point, basically been custom built to withstand exactly this type of attack.

'as you approach the walls you see a massive dome of darkness stretching up and over the city, making peering into in from the outside impossible. massive runes are emblazoned along the wall that...as you approach realize are made up of hundreds, thousands of smaller runes, each promising safety should [wizard's] army of clones ever try to breach these walls. [wizard PC] as you pass through the gatehouse, you feel almost a static coming from the wall itself as you realize, many of the stones that make up the wall are bloodstones. and they are heavily enchanted.'

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## Sigreid

I think there's 2 major questions.  First, in that particular world, how many casters exist that are even capable of it.  I'd suggest for most worlds it shouldn't be that many.  Second is how many of those casters would bother?  I mean, at that point you can do pretty much anything you want anyway and the cost of trying to force you to do something you don't want to is very high.  Why exactly would you want the headache of ruling?

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## Witty Username

A fun one would be a setting where this was setup and the mage long since died of old age.
So there is a droid army worth of high level mages controling the planet but they don't have the means to expand without a wish caster to simulate and each one that dies is a permanent loss of number and they can't cast 9th level spells at all, and every spell is a permanent loss. Thousands have already degraded to be only able to cast cantrips.

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## strangebloke

The idea that we get to abuse all the super magic but not have gods interfere is just nonsense to me, but in reality you probably get one wizard who does this exploit, makes a few thousand or few million or whatever simulacra, becomes immortal, makes sure nobody else can do what they did, and then just retires after whatever it is they want is achieved in the world. All this talk of "eliminating all possible threats" is just tippy style wankery. This isn't how people behave. If the only credible threat is "someone with thousands/millions of simulacra" that's all they'll try to eliminate, and its very unlikely that there's going to be 'lots' of 17th level wizards around already. Whoever discovered the one neat trick that gives you effective omnipotence isn't likely to share or tolerate rivals.

So then it comes down to the personality of the wizard in question. I can't help but feel that over the centuries they would become more mentally tired and less interested in the day-to-day functioning of the world, so after a millennia or so of shaping the world in their image they'd probably semi retire aside from occasionally sallying out with a flight of a million superwizards to blow up some budding archmage.

Eventually they might get sick of living and allow a successor. Overall meh. Its not a very compelling setting conceit IMO.

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## Sigreid

Well, this is exactly the kind of thing that the Inevitables exist to deal with

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## Witty Username

> Eventually they might get sick of living and allow a successor. Overall meh. Its not a very compelling setting conceit IMO.


Or get killed by a stray ninja, soul destroying weapons are less common in 5e, but there are a few still about.

Or causes enough of a ruckus that they aggro every demon lord (all infinity of them).

That was actually a plot point in a tippyverse game I played in briefly (tippyverse: 1984 was the name of the game), the magi ruling class had hit a pair of roadblocks trying to conquer the abyss and the far realm, because by their nature they are fundamentally unconquerable.

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## JackPhoenix

> Or get killed by a stray ninja, soul destroying weapons are less common in 5e, but there are a few still about.


Hellfire weapons, which send the soul of the victim to Styx to be turned into a lemure are, funnily enough, more available than ever, being just uncommon.

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