# Forum > Comics > Webcomics >  El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

## Qwertystop

All right! Keeping up the streak of actually-running-out-of-pages these days, here's the ninth El Goonish Shive thread, immediately following the one officially numbered 5, and thereby numbered appropriately. For those new to it, this comic has a lot of magic action gender stuff, was at one point described as "the dirtiest squeaky-clean comic on the internet", and currently appears to be dipping its metaphorical toes into something resembling intrigue. It's got the sort of character development you only really get when the author's had time to develop alongside said characters; it might be a bit of a rough start, but it gets good pretty fast.

Previous Threads:
El Goonish Shive (Late June 2009)
El Goonish Shive (Jan-Feb 2010)
El Goonish Shive (March 2011-May 2012; first thread to exceed one page)
El Goonish Shive (April 2013-May 2014; first thread to be closed for length at... 45 pages?)
El Goonish Shive II - I stand by my ridiculous comic  (first thread to be numbered!)
El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!
El Goonish ShIVe - Dammit Dan, Stop Teasing Us
El Goonish ShiVe - Look! Squirrel!

Currently: Fungible morality?

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## Celestia

You have the wrong subtitle on the last thread. Though, that one is still relevant, so I understand your reuse of it.

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## Rater202

You ever play a JRPG and right after you defeat a boss midway through the game you unlock them as a party member and then the version in your party just kind of sucks?

That would be why going villain comes with power boost.

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## Qwertystop

> You have the wrong subtitle on the last thread. Though, that one is still relevant, so I understand your reuse of it.


Good catch, thanks.

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## Fyraltari

> You ever play a JRPG and right after you defeat a boss midway through the game you unlock them as a party member and then the version in your party just kind of sucks?
> 
> That would be why going villain comes with power boost.


*Angrily shakes fist* Damn you, dramatic tension! Damn you!

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## Rater202

So, thought...

Early on, part of the plan for Elliot was that he would, like many anime protagonists, struggle with semi-literal inner demons and a lust for battle and violence.

Like, in the exhibition match Greg had Elliot and Nanase put on when he found out that Elliot brought a guest to observe Geg flat out says "Nanase, don't use your magic powers* and Elliot don't summon your inner demons."

It was eventually declared that that was just Greg making something up to be dramatic... But we're flat out told that that was a retcon in one of th Q&A strips.

So... Maybe Dan is revisiting that concept? Elliot... Likes fighting. And when he gets angry, he wants to inflict violence on the people who made him angry. It's just that he has enough self-control not to do that.

So maybe villain Elliot is just Elliot... With his inhibitions and emotional filters removed. His "inner demon" laid bare.

*Which she did anyway. Color clone spell... She hasn't used that in a while.

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## Anonymouswizard

Yeah, this is likely a reworking of the old Inner Demons idea. Although if we're lucky it'll instead be used to dive into potentially questionable aspects of Eliot's morality.

Like, we're going to see this villain form at some point, probably in four decades, and its actions are going to be based on Eliot's personality (be else why else include it). It being a kind of inverted morality is much less interesting than smaller twists. Especially if (speculation time) the form can exist in it's powered state for extended periods.

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## InvisibleBison

> Especially if (speculation time) the form can exist in it's powered state for extended periods.


Is there some reason to think it would be unusual if the villain form could last for a long time? I don't recall it ever being said that there's any limit to how long the Cheerleadra spell can last.

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## DavidSh

> Is there some reason to think it would be unusual if the villain form could last for a long time? I don't recall it ever being said that there's any limit to how long the Cheerleadra spell can last.


There's been some information on how long transformation spells last, but I don't have the spare time to dig through the last couple of years of comics to find it.  I believe it depends on how willing the subject is, and it probably changed with the magic change.  It would be a bummer of most magical personality changes become permanent because the new personality doesn't want to change back.

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## Kish

> Like, we're going to see this villain form at some point,


Hopefully not.

It would truly be _painfully_ stupid of Elliott to go, "This gryphon is vastly more powerful than me and nearly killed me because she was tricked into thinking I was evil. I'mma _be evil_ when I go to meet her."

I'll be much happier if his reasoning arrives at, "So...ever using that form would be a really dumb idea," and that's the end of it.

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## Rater202

> Hopefully not.
> 
> It would truly be _painfully_ stupid of Elliott to go, "This gryphon is vastly more powerful than me and nearly killed me because she was tricked into thinking I was evil. I'mma _be evil_ when I go to meet her."
> 
> I'll be much happier if his reasoning arrives at, "So...ever using that form would be a really dumb idea," and that's the end of it.


1: Nobody said anything about Elliot using the form to meet the Gryphons. It could just as easily be a situation where... Say, an encounter with Lord Tedd later in the comic?

2: We've already seen Elliot at the meeting with the Grpyhons at the beginning of the arc, he's Cheerleadra but smaller.

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## Maat Mons

Looks like Tedd's going to be tricked into helping to build new superweapons for the government.  Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later.  It's sort of a rite of passage for genius inventors.

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## Radar

> Looks like Tedd's going to be tricked into helping to build new superweapons for the government.  Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later.  It's sort of a rite of passage for genius inventors.


Not really superweapons. I would say quite the opposite as what Arthur needs are precise and safe weapons for field agents. Still weapon development though. Some inventors object to it very emotionally and I think Tedd will not be happy either.

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## Gnoman

I don't think Tedd would object nearly as much to making non-lethal weapons as he will to Arthur going behind his back like this.

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## Anonymouswizard

> Is there some reason to think it would be unusual if the villain form could last for a long time? I don't recall it ever being said that there's any limit to how long the Cheerleadra spell can last.


I was thinking along the lines of 'if it can be switched off at will a lot of drawbacks are mitigated', which admittedly might not be an actual issue.


While Tedd might be in theory fine with helping to build the kind of weapons Arthur wants at the moment, Arthur likely realises that others are going to want to use Tedd's research  to build far more destructive stuff, and he probably thinks that there is a justification for doing so down the line. Hence the secrecy.

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## DavidSh

But once you have become evil, why would you ever want to become non-evil?  Unless you could ensure that you would become evil again at a future time.

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## Anonymouswizard

> But once you have become evil, why would you ever want to become non-evil?  Unless you could ensure that you would become evil again at a future time.


Not sure, posted both of those posts at work, so double checking or noting my thought process wasn't a priority.

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## mucat

> But once you have become evil, why would you ever want to become non-evil?  Unless you could ensure that you would become evil again at a future time.


For the record, I will become evil at 3:15 pm on Wednesday, 11 June 2025.  My power shall be unsurpassed.

_Edit:_ Pacific Daylight time.

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## Celestia

> Hopefully not.
> 
> It would truly be _painfully_ stupid of Elliott to go, "This gryphon is vastly more powerful than me and nearly killed me because she was tricked into thinking I was evil. I'mma _be evil_ when I go to meet her."
> 
> I'll be much happier if his reasoning arrives at, "So...ever using that form would be a really dumb idea," and that's the end of it.


That would be a clear violation of Chekov's Gun. You can't introduce something to the story only to then ignore it. If it's irrelevant and never used, then why even bring it into the story in the first place?

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## InvisibleBison

> That would be a clear violation of Chekov's Gun. You can't introduce something to the story only to then ignore it. If it's irrelevant and never used, then why even bring it into the story in the first place?


Perhaps because it makes sense for the characters to discuss it. Perhaps because it's an interesting bit of information about how the new magic system works. Perhaps because the author wants us to worry about whether or not Elliot will be tempted to use the evil mode powerup in the next dangerous scene. Perhaps because there's going to be a new character using a similar phenomenon and the author wants to make their ability more understandable. Perhaps because contemplating this issue will lead Elliot to figuring out a different, morally acceptable, trade that he can do. In short, there are lots of ways to "use" something without having it directly appear in the story.

Also, Chekhov's gun is overrated. The most concise possible story is not necessarily the best story. And Chekhov was a playwright talking about using actual, physical props. The constraints are different for other media.

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## Windscion

As IB says, a gun can be used without being fired. The threat of force is a use for a weapon, even if it is never used with killing intent -- or even grasped.

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## Maat Mons

Regarding todays NP, I'm going to propose a few items before even knowing the scenarios.  I'm interested to see if my items wind up being able to allow success.  
My cell phoneA fat stack of cashA gunDuct tape

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## Gez

> But once you have become evil, why would you ever want to become non-evil?  Unless you could ensure that you would become evil again at a future time.


I think there are exceedingly few people who _want_ to be evil. This kind of motivation is more the domain of comic book scenery chewers than real people. Far more common are those who just are evil because it's what seemed the most convenient path to their own gratification.

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## Rater202

Very few people think of themselves as the villain of the story.

Even in a scenario with a clear-cut bad guy, the bad usually thinks that the other guy is the bad guy.

The Highschool Bully doesn't see himself as the bad guy for teasing, pranking, or committing violence against his victim. He sees the victim as the bad guy for not being able to "take a joke."

If someone genuinely wants to be "evil" it's becuase they see the villain as "cool" or "relatable" or becuase there's something fundamentally wrong with themsociopathy or psychopathy.

*and to be fair, sometimes it's easy to sympathize with the villain. I see Himiko Toga or Riley Davis and I don't see a serial killer, I see someone who could have and should have gotten help becuase it's pretty clear-cut not their fault that they're the way they are.)

...And Some people just want to wear flamboyant costumes and make bombastic speeches about how they're gonna show them, show them all!

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## Vinyadan

To tell the truth, I think Elliot is jumping to conclusions. We are kinda used to this sort of stuff for D&D epic spells -- to lower the difficulty of a very powerful spell, one that even an epic spellcaster would have trouble casting, you add certain drawbacks. For example, you can cast an extremely powerful spell, with much better chances, at the condition of dying.

Now, wouldn't that be a downer, and not really something teens should get near to! But, to tell the truth, I had a much less worrisome idea, which is: you give up the ability to turn the spell off, be it at will (you get a set duration) or at all (you will need external means of transformation to return to your normal form).

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## Anonymouswizard

> Regarding todays NP, I'm going to propose a few items before even knowing the scenarios.  I'm interested to see if my items wind up being able to allow success.  
> My cell phoneA fat stack of cashA gunDuct tape


I mean, the few times we did this kind of activity on school I hated them. Partially because it was always some kind of trick like "your best bet is to stay with the vehicle', but also because there would generally be some kind of bag or backpack but I wasn't allowed to put other items into it.

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## Kish

> That would be a clear violation of Chekov's Gun. You can't introduce something to the story only to then ignore it. If it's irrelevant and never used, then why even bring it into the story in the first place?


Chekov's Gun, at least in the form it's presented here, is a terrible rule. It amounts to: Don't do worldbuilding, since implying that anything is happening that isn't all about this story's protagonists is a waste; no matter how intelligent your protagonists are supposed to be, if there's a mistake that could be made, they have to make it.

If Elliott applies a tiny amount of thought here and never turns into a super-villain, that does not make it irrelevant that he could, any more than, e.g., the fact that Ellen did not attempt to copy Not-Tengu's form makes it irrelevant that that's something she could have (disastrously) attempted had Zeus not pushed her in the direction of duplicating Nanase's guardian form instead.

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## Lord Raziere

> Chekov's Gun, at least in the form it's presented here, is a terrible rule. It amounts to: Don't do worldbuilding, since implying that anything is happening that isn't all about this story's protagonists is a waste; no matter how intelligent your protagonists are supposed to be, if there's a mistake that could be made, they have to make it.
> 
> If Elliott applies a tiny amount of thought here and never turns into a super-villain, that does not make it irrelevant that he could, any more than, e.g., the fact that Ellen did not attempt to copy Not-Tengu's form makes it irrelevant that that's something she could have (disastrously) attempted had Zeus not pushed her in the direction of duplicating Nanase's guardian form instead.


Agreed, for example it is a well known fact in comic books that Superman could destroy the world if he really wanted to. But he never really does. all his plots involve him sticking to his rules and beliefs and presenting it as bad if he slips even a little bit, any mind control plots have him be saved/broke out of it before he can cause too much destruction, alternate evil supermen tend to stick to the world conquering route rather than giving up on humanity entirely. But no iteration of Superman actively tries to destroy the world or makes the mistake of doing so as far as I can recall.

The fact that he _could_ destroy the world drives a lot of the motivations of the people opposing him however, such as Lex Luthor, Amanda Waller, Cadmus, or just some villain that recognizes "hey this guys really powerful, best take him out first if I want to carry out my plan on Earth". So just because it never happens, doesn't mean its not relevant. 

also good storytelling/wordbuilding can use the mistake detail by making a villain do something similar but in their foolishness, haste or other flaw makes the mistake that the protagonist doesn't and thus gets defeated for it. for example if Elliot was facing some Elliot-expy villain who mirrored him most ways but was more reckless, you could use the fact that this villain-Elliot has a similar form to make them make the mistake of going villain for more powerful thinking they could somehow direct their villainy for maximum effect against injustice but be wrong.

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## Qwertystop

> To tell the truth, I think Elliot is jumping to conclusions. We are kinda used to this sort of stuff for D&D epic spells -- to lower the difficulty of a very powerful spell, one that even an epic spellcaster would have trouble casting, you add certain drawbacks. For example, you can cast an extremely powerful spell, with much better chances, at the condition of dying.
> 
> Now, wouldn't that be a downer, and not really something teens should get near to! But, to tell the truth, I had a much less worrisome idea, which is: you give up the ability to turn the spell off, be it at will (you get a set duration) or at all (you will need external means of transformation to return to your normal form).


Eh. That doesn't seem like the sort of "bad trade" that the Emissary would warn against without saying what it is  situationally, "more powerful but time-limited" is perfectly fine, and in fact that's very similar to the "when it ends you burn out" tradeoff of guardian forms. "You die", or "permanent long-term consequences", or "reduced lifespan"... I can see times when it would be worth it, and I would caution heavily against it without hiding the existence of the option, but I suppose that he might want to discourage reckless undervaluing-the-long-term behavior by a teen.

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## Anonymouswizard

I admit it could be a red herring, and that Elliott or somebody else is going to work out another trade that'll be more important to the story. But I do feel like this is setup for an arc way down the line where Eliot decides them going villain is less problematic than whatever the current issue is.

Although considering Dan, Eliot's villain form might just steal puppies and put them on tall roofs. Which as a dogophobe I'd be in support of.

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## Maat Mons

The trouble with a temporary villain form is you'd know it was temporary.  How can you get up to proper evil when you know you're going to feel bad about it later?  If I were going to use a villain form, it would have to come with a built-in memory wipe for all the stuff I did while transformed.  It would also need to wipe my memory of deciding to use the form, and leave me with some plausible false memories of what I was doing during all the forgotten time.  I could use underhanded methods to set myself up for success, and I'd be none the wiser.  I'd just think things happened to work out really well.

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## Qwertystop

> The trouble with a temporary villain form is you'd know it was temporary.  How can you get up to proper evil when you know you're going to feel bad about it later?  If I were going to use a villain form, it would have to come with a built-in memory wipe for all the stuff I did while transformed.  It would also need to wipe my memory of deciding to use the form, and leave me with some plausible false memories of what I was doing during all the forgotten time.  I could use underhanded methods to set myself up for success, and I'd be none the wiser.  I'd just think things happened to work out really well.


The thing is, how temporary is it? "When I change back, I'll wish I hadn't done it" is just incentive to figure out a way to make it last longer, and therein lies the problem  it's basically the aberration trade, giving up morality for power, at which point you care less about whatever morality you kept and are more willing to trade what's left of it away for even more power.

Actually, I bet it's not just _similar_  this is probably exactly the category of magic that produces vampires, in-setting. Use a spell that gives you power and is amenable to abstract trade-offs, trade your empathy or morality or some other aspect of your mindset to make it stronger, cascade.

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## Vinyadan

Now that you mention it, becoming an aberration is something very similar and which we have seen in-setting.

About aberrations, here's something I thought. While magic was still a secret, maybe some people thought that the only access to magic was becoming an aberration. More ways to access magic being readily available could have meant that new aberrations would have become rarer and rarer, as there likely would have been less sinister ways to reach the same purposes (being immortal, access to riches, and casting spells).

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## Maat Mons

Speaking of better forms of immortality, it's always seemed odd to me that Sirleck wasn't angling to make Adrian Raven his new host.  Feeding seems like it must be the riskiest part of being an aberration.  If Sirleck had managed to latch onto Raven, he'd have been set for eternity.

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## Rater202

> Speaking of better forms of immortality, it's always seemed odd to me that Sirleck wasn't angling to make Adrian Raven his new host.  Feeding seems like it must be the riskiest part of being an aberration.  If Sirleck had managed to latch onto Raven, he'd have been set for eternity.


1: Immortals already hate Aberrations for some reason... Or maybe it's just that killing Abberations is one of the few ways they can screw with mortals without getting in trouble. Either way, taking an elf as a host is just painting a target on his back.

2: As an Elf, Adrian is bound by vaguely defined rules that, while not as strict as those that restrict immortals, still limit what he can and can't do. Unless it turns out that there's no inherent restriction and it's more "immortal will get pissy."

3: Sirleck knows Pandora.

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## Maat Mons

Sirleck instigated a plan that eliminated Pandora as a threat.  He had every reason to believe she would retain no emotional connection to Raven after she was reborn.  It really looked for a time there like he had deliberately gotten rid of the major obstacle to a plan to capture Raven.  

I don't recall any indication that the Immortal community as a whole is protective of half-immortals.  As far as I remember, Pandora is the only immortal who is established as giving a crap if Raven lives or dies.  

All aberrations always have a massive target on their back.  Sirleck is kill-on-sight for immortals whether he's possessing Raven or not.  His only chance for survival is to remain hidden.  Each time he takes a new host, he risks revealing himself.  As time goes on, the chance that he won't be found out and slain as a result of one of his many, many possessions goes to zero.  If he took Raven, he could lay low forever after and never again need to take any risks.

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## Windscion

It was Voltaire who targeted Pandora. Sirleck just wanted the Twins out of the way so he could take a shot at Magus. _(And he would have gotten away with it, too, if not for those meddling kids. Well, mostly Ellen's unexpected resistance.)_ Sirleck didn't know what backing Raven had, and also Raven made a great distraction.

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## Fyraltari

We don't know what the process of possessing someone is like. Maybe it doesn't work on elves.

Or maybe Sirleck was afraid that someone with Raven's skill and experience could eliminate him when Magus made it seem he was more harmless than he actually was.

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## PoeticallyPsyco

Plus, Sirleck feeds on his host. We don't know whether Raven would live forever that way.

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## Kish

Yeah, I doubt very much that aberrations in general or body snatchers in specific are in a position of "I just need an elf once." And if they were...from their perspective, the only reason _not_ to devour whole cities without hesitation is the negative attention from those powerful enough to be a threat to them drawn by doing so; taking over the body of an immortal's actual child does not sound like a way to reduce, avoid, or mitigate that.

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## Rater202

I've seen people make the argument that the purpose of homework isn't to evaluate of you learned the lesson or teach you anything, but that it's actually supposed to get you used to going to work and then coming home and still having work to do on your own time despite having spent all morning and a good chunk of the afternoon at a place where you should have done the work.

Considering that the purpose of school is to occupy your time and turn you into a productive worker, homework is just another tool to indoctrinate people into toxic work culture, according to these theories.

I don't know, it makes a lot more sense than most conspiracy theories.

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## Fyraltari

I like this password.

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## Maat Mons

I'd say it's the other way around.  Homework is when you actually do things.  Doing things is how you learn.  The part of school that exists only to turn you into a good drone is the part where you show up at the building, sit at a desk, and interact with people.

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## Rater202

> I'd say it's the other way around.  Homework is when you actually do things.  Doing things is how you learn.  The part of school that exists only to turn you into a good drone is the part where you show up at the building, sit at a desk, and interact with people.


You've never had an employer give you extra paperwork to do at home? Or ask you to work unpaid overtime "just this once?" Homework is where it starts.

Instead of using class time efficiently, class time is used to drill in drone behaviors and you end up doing the real work on what is *supposed* to be your own time.

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## Maat Mons

Your second paragraph is exactly what I was getting at.  I'm not saying homework doesn't lay the groundwork for unpaid overtime.  I'm saying that at least it also helps you learn the subject matter.  Sadly, most other aspects of school can't even boast that much.  So if I was given carte blanche to redesign the school system, homework is the one thing I'd keep.

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## Rater202

> Your second paragraph is exactly what I was getting at.  I'm not saying homework doesn't lay the groundwork for unpaid overtime.  I'm saying that at least it also helps you learn the subject matter.  Sadly, most other aspects of school can't even boast that much.  So if I was given carte blanche to redesign the school system, homework is the one thing I'd keep.


No, it's quite the opposite: I'm saying ditch homework entirely and instead use class time to actually teach the stuff in a way that's *efficient*.

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## Maat Mons

What's efficient about having a human being talking at you?  You could just read an eBook and gain all that same information.  I guess you might want to schedule a Zoom meeting with an instructor if you were confused, but I'm not seeing any need for a brick-and-mortar institution or set class times.

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## Rater202

> What's efficient about having a human being talking at you?  You could just read an eBook and gain all that same information.  I guess you might want to schedule a Zoom meeting with an instructor if you were confused, but I'm not seeing any need for a brick-and-mortar institution or set class times.


You misunderstand.

Current system: Majority of the 6+ hours a day, five days a week, set aside for the sole purpose of educating children is deliberately wasted. Instead, children are made to do the majority of the work to educate themselves on their own time, normalizing the kind of behavior that, as an adult, becomes unpaid overtime and making them devalue their own time.

A more efficient system would be: actually using the 6+ hours set aside for education for the sake of education so the child doesn't *have* to do the majority of the work on their own time. The child learns that work is work and home is home and grows up into someone who values their time.

If you have time set aside for something, and the majority of that something is done outside of that time, time is not being used efficiently.

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## Qwertystop

> What's efficient about having a human being talking at you?  You could just read an eBook and gain all that same information.  I guess you might want to schedule a Zoom meeting with an instructor if you were confused, but I'm not seeing any need for a brick-and-mortar institution or set class times.


Reading the information yourself means getting stuck if you misunderstand whatever static way things are presented in the book; a teacher can adapt. Putting too many different means of explanation in the book to try to avoid that risks becoming overwhelming and redundant, and a student may not know they are misunderstanding until much later and this may be unable to know which thing they need to find corrections on. I'm not going to claim school is perfect as it is, but I will say that both explanation of a concept by another person (who is actually there and can adjust their approach as necessary better than a recording) and working through examples are useful for absorbing different things and for different students, even if in some cases the ratio could do with adjustment. Outside of a few specific fields, I've never had as much success learning things through self-study and online learning programs (e.g. video lectures) as with an actual teacher, even with some of the worse teachers I've had.

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## Anonymouswizard

You have to take into account that Rater seems to have an unusually bad schooling history, and this seems to have tainted his views. He seems to believe that people become teachers to abuse power, to start.

As for homework,my understanding is that it exists so that teachers have free time. I do t know how much this applies to US schools, but in my experience more work is done in lesson than outside of it for the majority of compulsory schooling. Plenty of work done during class so that if you don't understand it the teacher can help, Then ideally 1-2 hours of homework to catch up the time teachers need to plan lessons/do admin/get gazeboed and get you used to the length of the working day.

Of course by the time I was 14 most homework was long term coursework that you had to manage. By the time I was Tedd's age it was all coursework and assigned reading (even accounting for the one year difference in schooling). 

Of course the annoyance was there, just as it's there when my employer asks me to do additional stuff at home.

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## Vinyadan

Homework is essential for learning. A lot of things need you to go for it alone (translating, writing, studying at your own pace). Doing this during class would not work, because people perform these tasks at different paces, and some wouldn't have enough time, while others would waste a lot of it. The exception is when the school has resources you cannot expect the pupil to have, like a model for drawing class (faster people in this case can just add more detail) or room for a building project if you are studying at mason school. There isn't some obscure cabal behind this; every discipline needs practice. I also don't believe it conditions you in working from home, that's a matter of cost-reward for the worker and of the power relationship between employer and employee. 

The one real problem I see with homework is that the environment at home is very influential on how well homework is done, so it further advantages people who already have it better. But, unless you can give everyone a real tutor and spaces at school to do homework, I don't see a solution.

However, I share Tedd's view that homework on top of full days doesn't make much sense, especially for an 18 y o, unless it is really light. (Tedd actually seems to be much more of a grown up in these last strips, making calculations and giving his own judgements.)

By the way, do US schools all teach the same things? Or are there different categories in the same age bracket, depending on the job they prepare you for? I would expect someone like Tedd to go to a more theory-driven school with fewer hours of class.

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## Lord Raziere

> By the way, do US schools all teach the same things? Or are there different categories in the same age bracket, depending on the job they prepare you for? I would expect someone like Tedd to go to a more theory-driven school with fewer hours of class.


.......whats a theory driven school? /ignorant american.

in the US we have community colleges, technical schools, full on colleges....but I'm not sure we have anything else? thats all I can think of off the top of my head. the cliche in the US is that full on colleges are pretty much a lot of work even more than jobs are, and some put you deep into debt and such though.

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## Rater202

> You have to take into account that Rater seems to have an unusually bad schooling history, and this seems to have tainted his views. He seems to believe that people become teachers to abuse power, to start.


I dont think teachers become teachers to abuse authority.

I think that teaching is a difficult job that doesn't pay what it's worth, therefore anyone who becomes a teacher is either an idealist or has a motive other than profit.

Generally speaking, there are three kinds of people who become teachers. Idealists who have no idea how difficult it's going to be, people who know how hard and unrewarding the job is but do it any way becuase they want to help people and make a difference... And people who crave power over people who can't fight back.

You see the same patterns among firemen, doctors, police officers... Anybody who is acknowledged as an authority. It's different ratios though. It's very rare that you'll find a fireman who wants to have power over people... Though when you do they're some of the worst.

And the idealists and a lot of the "want to make a difference" types tend to end up either quitting or getting jaded due to inadequate training and inadequate compensation for the cost.

couple this with corruption in the system as administrators become complacent and the bad ones end up either being the majority or dominating the work environment.

Not every teacher is bad, but the system is toxic. The theories I've seen suggest that homework, as it is now, is part of the toxic infrastructure.

Re: Homework, Homework doesn't give the teachers a break. It actually gives them more work becuase they have to take it home and grade it on their own time. They're doing mandatory unpaid overtime and a the same time normalizing it.

(Grading is another part of it that's problematic actually. There have been studies that say that grading isn't a good measure of performance, doesn't provide the motivation people suggest it does, and is biased toward kids with certain talents who come from certain kinds of homes.)



> By the way, do US schools all teach the same things? Or are there different categories in the same age bracket, depending on the job they prepare you for? I would expect someone like Tedd to go to a more theory-driven school with fewer hours of class.


Public schools are nominally supposed to teach the same curriculum but in practice, it depends on where the school is and who they have on staff.

Charter Schools, Private Schools, and so on are supposed to teach the same stuff as public schools but with specialized treatments or additional coursed instead of or in addition to standard, but in practice how well that enforced varies significantly: Some charter schools have gotten away with teaching people that the moon landing was a hoax, for example.

Once you get to the university level is where it goes on; Different universities have different programs, there are two-year degrees, four-year degrees... You don't even need to go to a university, you could go to a two-year community college, pass there, and then transfer to a university which will save you a lot of money but isn't always a viable option, or you could just take the two-year degree and go. Or you could go to a trade school and spend a cole years learning a  job.

There _are_ gifted programs and schools for the gifted, but it's hard to get into those, and there's some evidence that they do more harm than good.

Ideally, Tedd would be in some AP classes... But Ideally, Tedd wouldn't be a neurotic, socially awkward mess with severe issues stemming from parental abandonment who until very recently wasn't confident in himself and embraced the idea of being an unashamed pervert and a jackass because it meant he wasn't weird.

All of which would result in grades being lower than they should be or being targetted, consciously or subconsciously, by the biases of less than good teachers and basically cost Tedd opportunities he should have gotten.

And well, we've seen directly that the Principal at Moperville North is an incompetent Manchild and that at least some of the teachers are the bad kind of teacher.

----------


## Vinyadan

> .......whats a theory driven school? /ignorant american.
> 
> in the US we have community colleges, technical schools, full on colleges....but I'm not sure we have anything else? thats all I can think of off the top of my head. the cliche in the US is that full on colleges are pretty much a lot of work even more than jobs are, and some put you deep into debt and such though.


Various  countries in Europe have secondary schools based on Napoleon's "lycée".  These schools don't teach you a job and are meant to develop a person on  a cultural level before he actually studies a job at a university.  These are the school I called "theory-driven". They come in various  flavours, but generally it's the basic baggage (literature, maths,  history, geography...) plus philosophy and Latin followed by more  specific teaching, depending on the school specialty (so Greek or  technical drawing or many foreign languages). These schools don't need  much supervised practice; instead, they require  lots of theoretical study. So you get something like just 30-32 hours a  week of school, sometimes less, but you will likely have to spend much  more time on the books than in a professional school. (historically,  Lycaeums were the schools of the elites; they were the only schools that  gave you access university. Now there are ways to circumvent that, and  some countries have done away with this rule altogether)

The  other option are technical and professional secondary schools, which  don't teach Latin or philosophy and instead teach and qualify you for a  job. So you find technical subjects like informatics or mechanics and  automation systems, or how to draw clothes, or how to raise cattle and  value a terrain and so on. Technical and professional schools generally  rely on students practicing their future jobs in laboratories or work  settings, so they can own machines like lathes, or contain full-on  farms. That takes quite a bit of hours, sometimes 40 h a week. 

A  big difference between continental Europe and the US is that in  continental Europe students are often arranged in fixed groups of 15-30  students. Each group is made of kids the same age and has its own room,  and its members will spend all the years at the school doing the same  activities together (unless someone has to repeat a year and is moved to  a younger group, or too many students leave and the group becomes too  tiny and has to be disbanded). Teachers go from room to room. 

Tedd  to me looks like the kind of kid who'd have chosen a lyceum. But, as  Rater observed, his situation might have hindered him a lot. And it's  pretty odd to think of Tedd as part of a student class in the European  sense, when he's always shown walking around corridors with just one or  two people he knows.

----------


## Gez

To answer the question of "what good is a compass on the Moon?", one needs to ask if the situation also involves time travel. Apparently, two billion years ago, it would have worked just fine.

----------


## Qwertystop

> Various  countries in Europe have secondary schools based on Napoleon's "lycée".  These schools don't teach you a job and are meant to develop a person on  a cultural level before he actually studies a job at a university.  These are the school I called "theory-driven". They come in various  flavours, but generally it's the basic baggage (literature, maths,  history, geography...) plus philosophy and Latin followed by more  specific teaching, depending on the school specialty (so Greek or  technical drawing or many foreign languages). These schools don't need  much supervised practice; instead, they require  lots of theoretical study. So you get something like just 30-32 hours a  week of school, sometimes less, but you will likely have to spend much  more time on the books than in a professional school. (historically,  Lycaeums were the schools of the elites; they were the only schools that  gave you access university. Now there are ways to circumvent that, and  some countries have done away with this rule altogether)
> 
> The  other option are technical and professional secondary schools, which  don't teach Latin or philosophy and instead teach and qualify you for a  job. So you find technical subjects like informatics or mechanics and  automation systems, or how to draw clothes, or how to raise cattle and  value a terrain and so on. Technical and professional schools generally  rely on students practicing their future jobs in laboratories or work  settings, so they can own machines like lathes, or contain full-on  farms. That takes quite a bit of hours, sometimes 40 h a week. 
> 
> A  big difference between continental Europe and the US is that in  continental Europe students are often arranged in fixed groups of 15-30  students. Each group is made of kids the same age and has its own room,  and its members will spend all the years at the school doing the same  activities together (unless someone has to repeat a year and is moved to  a younger group, or too many students leave and the group becomes too  tiny and has to be disbanded). Teachers go from room to room. 
> 
> Tedd  to me looks like the kind of kid who'd have chosen a lyceum. But, as  Rater observed, his situation might have hindered him a lot. And it's  pretty odd to think of Tedd as part of a student class in the European  sense, when he's always shown walking around corridors with just one or  two people he knows.


Ah. Yes, that category of school is not a thing in the US. At that age level, we have public schools (government-run, tax-funded, anyone of the appropriate age living in the relevant area can go there with no further requirements), and private schools (privately owned, generally some combination of entrance exams, tuition fees, religious affiliation, etc). Also some kids are home-schooled. In general, though, nearly everyone goes to public schooling. There are national educational standards, but the actual degree to which a given school meets or exceeds them or fails to do so will vary. Private schools and home-schoolers may diverge somewhat from the usual structure of things but are at least nominally still required to meet those national standards, and though I've never been to one my understanding is that they mostly still follow the same structure as public schools, but with higher standards or better-paid teachers or more extracurriculars or whatever. We don't really have different schools with different approaches and focuses (unless you've got rich parents and live near an appropriate private school) until the post-secondary level, colleges and universities and such.

----------


## DavidSh

Some cities, at least New York City, have selective "magnet" public high schools.  The Bronx High School of Science is probably the best-known, at least among my circles.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

The characters haven't started college yet, have they? I know they're close...

Anyway, yeah, in American public high schools you're all basically learning the same curriculum unless you can test into an advanced class in a certain subject. Then there are a few extra-curricular classes that allow a student to start learning music or art or computers or foreign languages (well SOME foreign language is usually required but taking the advanced foreign language classes was optional back when I did it).

Private schools may be totally different, and of course there's a lot of variety in quality level in the public schools depending on where you are. But it's really in the post-high school era that American educations start getting really specific. Some go to community colleges, some go to big universities to get a more advanced degree, others go to a trade school, et cetera.

----------


## Maat Mons

Another fun fact about US schools: while some of the funding is federal, a school that relies only on that will be a terrible, underfunded place that provides a very poor quality of education.  More local forms of government also contribute, but how much depends on where you live.  If you live somewhere affluent, the local govern can afford to contribute substantially, and you'll have good schools.  If you live somewhere poor, the local government can't afford to contribute much, and you'll have awful schools.  So it's very important to your future success to be born somewhere with a high median income.

----------


## Fyraltari

THE AGONY!

That is all.

----------


## Windscion

So ... Edward is having trouble understanding/accepting Tedd == over the span of whole comic.
And now Arthur has to take on the role of being diplomatic/ambassadorial with Tedd. He doesn't seem to be doing badly, which is interesting but not really surprising. No surprising because Tedd is very open to being listened to. Lucky Tedd. Some of us learned not to volunteer info because it would be used against us.

----------


## Gnoman

> To answer the question of "what good is a compass on the Moon?", one needs to ask if the situation also involves time travel. Apparently, two billion years ago, it would have worked just fine.


Funny thing about the team-building exercise this is referencing. I actually did this one in school, and remember one thing very clearly - on the list was two handguns, which everyone discarded as useless. Turned out the "correct" answer was to use them as a method of propulsion, the math of which never seemed right to me.


The exercise is a "palette swap" of one involving a plane crash in the desert, where both the compass and the pistols made more sense - the compass, while working, is useless because trying to walk your way out is suicide; while the pistols are a very useful signalling device.

----------


## Rater202

> Funny thing about the team-building exercise this is referencing. I actually did this one in school, and remember one thing very clearly - on the list was two handguns, which everyone discarded as useless. Turned out the "correct" answer was to use them as a method of propulsion, the math of which never seemed right to me.
> 
> 
> The exercise is a "palette swap" of one involving a plane crash in the desert, where both the compass and the pistols made more sense - the compass, while working, is useless because trying to walk your way out is suicide; while the pistols are a very useful signalling device.


I had the "stranded in the Canadian wilderness" variant in high school.

My group selected the mapif we could find a landmark we might be able to set up camp, the tent for shelter, and the bottle of high proof whiskey for the sake of 1: Something flammable in case we had trouble starting a fire with scavenged and 2: disinfecting water if we can't filter or boil it.

And then one of the asshats I was paired up with threw in "staying sane" with the whiskey(IE, drinking it straight to get drunk) after we agreed not too and we lost points. (It may have been on purpose... I'd turned him in after catching him dealing drugs out of his locker in middle school.)

I don't remember what the "right" things were, but we also lost points for taking the map becuase "they're dangerous, they'll make you think you can navigate to civilization" when... Our entire reason was "if we can find a landmark we can set up a camp somewhere relatively safe." Just ignored our reasoning, the maser list said the map was bad so choosing the map is wrong.

Oh. There was a mirror we were supposed to use to shine a light at passing airplanes coming to rescue us... But the way it was worded suggested that we'd be able to scavenge from the environment so I figured we'd use a ... _fire_ for that.

----------


## Fyraltari

I'm not really sure what the point of the third panel is. Grace isn't being cuter than usual, is she?

----------


## Taevyr

> I'm not really sure what the point of the third panel is. Grace isn't being cuter than usual, is she?


Clearly, a woman who clearly states how she intends her words is a gem rarer than any precious materila, and thus needs to be cherished. 

Bit of a weird/stereotypical premise, but I can see where it stems from.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Clearly, a woman who clearly states how she intends her words is a gem rarer than any precious materila, and thus needs to be cherished. 
> 
> Bit of a weird/stereotypical premise, but I can see where it stems from.


I find it more annoying than anything, really.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> The exercise is a "palette swap" of one involving a plane crash in the desert, where both the compass and the pistols made more sense - the compass, while working, is useless because trying to walk your way out is suicide; while the pistols are a very useful signalling device.


This was the one we had, as well as one about being stuck in the desert after your Jeep broke down. Neither had any firearms for us, although I think the jungle one had a flare gun?

Again, both times a backpack was one of the options, but we couldn't use it to carry more stuff. This infuriates me to this day.

Both times the trick was 'stay with the vehicle', which to me isn't really fitting with the wording of the premise. Next time I'm putting the bloody plane on my list.

Also surely if you're already on the moon it's more efficient to just walk around instead of firing a pistol to move?

----------


## Celestia

Using a pistol to propel yourself around the moon is dumb. Best case scenario, you can jump a bit more which is completely unnecessary on a surface with no cliffs or holes. Worst case scenario, you propel yourself out of the moon's gravity well and launch yourself into space.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Even with the lowered gravity of the moon, I can't imagine the energy used to propel a tiny bullet would be of any use in reverse-propelling a full sized human.  :Small Confused: 

I mean, it's simple physics. 

F = m*a

The mass of a person is much MUCH higher than the mass of a bullet. At any given force F, the counter-force will have a much MUCH smaller effect on the person holding the gun than it does on the bullet.

It's feasible in zero gravity, where there are essentially no other strong forces at work on you. But on the moon? I'm doubtful.

----------


## Celestia

> Even with the lowered gravity of the moon, I can't imagine the energy used to propel a tiny bullet would be of any use in reverse-propelling a full sized human. 
> 
> I mean, it's simple physics. 
> 
> F = m*a
> 
> The mass of a person is much MUCH higher than the mass of a bullet. At any given force F, the counter-force will have a much MUCH smaller effect on the person holding the gun than it does on the bullet.
> 
> It's feasible in zero gravity, where there are essentially no other strong forces at work on you. But on the moon? I'm doubtful.


Don't forget about the a in that equation. Bullets may not have a lot of mass, but they have a lot of acceleration. Incidentally, you can achieve escape velocity on the moon with a bicycle.

----------


## Ibrinar

Yeah but since it isn't speed squared like with kinetic energy that still isn't enough to amount to much. A pistol bullet weighs about 1/10000th of an adult human. So if it goes 1000km/h that is just enough for you to go 0.1 km/h.

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## Celestia

> Yeah but since it isn't speed squared like with kinetic energy that still isn't enough to amount to much. A pistol bullet weighs about 1/10000th of an adult human. So if it goes 1000km/h that is just enough for you to go 0.1 km/h.


Man, I didn't think the math was that bad. Yeah, looks like a pistol will do f*** all.

----------


## Maat Mons

I think we actually should be using the kinetic energy equation.  Otherwise we'll need to integrate the acceleration to find our final velocity.  And it's much easier to find info on the muzzle velocity of guns that it is to find anything about the instantaneous acceleration of the bullet inside the barrel. 

No, wait.  The equation full of v's and m's seemed tempting, since v's and m's are what we know, but I'm struggling to find a way to meaningfully correlate the kinetic energy of the bullet with the kinetic energy of the shooter.

----------


## Aeson

> Even with the lowered gravity of the  moon, I can't imagine the energy used to propel a tiny bullet would be  of any use in reverse-propelling a full sized human. 
> 
> I mean, it's simple physics. 
> 
> F = m*a
> 
> The mass of a person is much MUCH higher than the mass of a bullet. At  any given force F, the counter-force will have a much MUCH smaller  effect on the person holding the gun than it does on the bullet.
> 
> It's feasible in zero gravity, where there are essentially no other  strong forces at work on you. But on the moon? I'm doubtful.


If it's speed you're looking for, why would you use reaction forces rather than conservation of momentum to do this?  mme * v0, me + mbullet * v0, bullet = mme * v1, me + mbullet * v1, bullet;  assuming that I and the bullet are initially stationary in my inertial  frame of reference, mme * v1, me = mbullet * v1, bullet, or v1, me = (mbullet / mme) * v1, bullet.




> Incidentally, you can  achieve escape velocity on the moon with a bicycle.


Escape  velocity from the surface of the moon is about 2.4 km/s, which on Earth  is about Mach 7. The idea that you could achieve this speed under your  own power on a bicycle seems somewhat suspect.

Incidentally, in  order to achieve this velocity by firing a single bullet from a pistol  with a muzzle velocity of 1000 m/s, a person would need to fire a bullet  about 2.5 times as massive as they themselves are. Somehow, I don't  believe that accidentally achieving escape velocity from the lunar  surface by firing a pistol - or virtually any infantry weapon, for that  matter - at the ground is a serious concern; more realistic concerns  might include accidentally shooting yourself in the foot, damaging your  spacesuit with a richochet or with fragments launched from the lunar  surface by the impact of the bullet, or being knocked off-balance by the  recoil of the pistol due to inexperience with firearms in  lower-than-Earth-gravity environments.




> I think we actually should be using the kinetic energy equation.   Otherwise we'll need to integrate the acceleration to find our final  velocity.  And it's much easier to find info on the muzzle velocity of  guns that it is to find anything about the instantaneous acceleration of  the bullet inside the barrel.


While Energy is conserved, Kinetic Energy is not. If you wanted to do this, you would have to look at a total energy balance, which means you'd need to understand something about the losses in the system and possibly also potential energy. This, in my opinion, would be a _more_ difficult way to approach the problem than either reaction forces or conservation of momentum given that we know nothing about the system other than that there is a human and a pistol.

Conservation of Energy would however be a relatively easy way to estimate how high up a single pistol shot could propel a person once you've computed how fast the person is moving immediately after firing the pistol, as the height above the lunar surface at which your lunar gravitational potential energy equals the kinetic energy that you'd have immediately after firing the pistol directly downwards while standing on the lunar surface is the height at which you stop ascending (assuming, at any rate, that your lunar gravitational potential energy is referenced to the lunar surface).

----------


## Celestia

> Escape  velocity from the surface of the moon is about 2.4 km/s, which on Earth  is about Mach 7. The idea that you could achieve this speed under your  own power on a bicycle seems somewhat suspect.


Damn. School lied to me.

----------


## Maat Mons

You might be misremembering a factoid about one of the moons of Mars.  I seem to remember one of those being very easy to escape from.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> If it's speed you're looking for, why would you use reaction forces rather than conservation of momentum to do this?


Because I only remember basic physics? Newton's Laws are essentially what we're discussing when the subject is using a projectile weapon as propulsion, anyway. The force of shooting a bullet applies an equal but opposite force on the person shooting it, right? But it's likely not enough force, as I already pointed out, and it seems like you agreed with me...

----------


## Vinyadan

> Escape  velocity from the surface of the moon is about 2.4 km/s, which on Earth  is about Mach 7. The idea that you could achieve this speed under your  own power on a bicycle seems somewhat suspect.


I wonder, could you reach such speeds by jumping, if you're a doctor that trained with Batman?

----------


## Aeson

> [Otherwise we'll need to integrate the acceleration to find our final velocity.  And it's much easier to find info on the muzzle velocity of guns that it is to find anything about the instantaneous acceleration of the bullet inside the barrel.


Overlooked this part. If you know the muzzle velocity and the ratio between the mass of the shooter and the mass of the bullet, then as long as the ratio between the masses is time-invariant you don't need to know anything specific about the forces or accelerations involved and you don't need to evaluate any integrals the hard way even if you for some reason want to approach this using reaction forces rather than conservation of momentum.

vshooter = ∫ashooter * dt = ∫Fshooter / mshooter * dt

Fbullet = Fshooter from Newton's Third Law, and mshooter = (1/k) * mbullet where k is some constant, so vshooter can be rewritten as:
vshooter = ∫k * Fbullet / mbullet * dt

Since k is a constant, it can be pulled out of the integral, giving:
vshooter = k *∫Fbullet / mbullet * dt

∫Fbullet / mbullet * dt is the muzzle velocity of the gun, which we know, so:

vshooter = k * vmuzzle


Incidentally, since we're probably going to assume masses are constant for this problem:
vshooter = ∫Fshooter / mshooter * dt = (1 / mshooter) * ∫Fshooter * dt
vbullet = ∫Fbullet / mbullet * dt = (1 / mbullet) * ∫Fbullet * dt

Giving:
mshooter * vshooter = ∫Fshooter * dt
mbullet * vbullet = ∫Fbullet * dt

Fshooter = Fbullet, so:
mshooter * vshooter = ∫Fbullet * dt

Therefore:
mshooter * vshooter = mbullet * vbullet
or if you prefer:
pshooter = pbullet

Reaction forces is the less direct way of applying Conservation of Momentum to this problem.

(All of this post assumes an initial velocity of 0. A nonzero initial velocity would change some details, but the general idea is the same.)

----------


## DavidSh

> ...
> Therefore:
> mshooter * vshooter = mbullet * vbullet
> or if you prefer:
> pshooter = pbullet
> 
> Reaction forces is the complicated way of applying Conservation of Momentum to this problem.


Well done, except that these are vectors, and that the forces, velocities, and momenta are in opposite directions.  So, for example, the final conclusion would be:
*p*shooter = -*p*bullet

----------


## Aeson

> Well done, except that these are vectors, and that the forces, velocities, and momenta are in opposite directions.  So, for example, the final conclusion would be:
> *p*shooter = -*p*bullet


The reason that you believe I was working with vector quantities is...? I wrote everything as scalars, so I only care about the magnitudes; direction is irrelevant.

----------


## DavidSh

> The reason that you believe I was working with vector quantities is...? I wrote everything as scalars, so I only care about the magnitudes; direction is irrelevant.


Because forces, velocities, and momenta *are* vectors.  Since you asked.

----------


## Aeson

> Because forces, velocities, and momenta *are* vectors.  Since you asked.


But I *wrote* them as scalars, and when I applied Newton's Third Law I applied it in a way that is only true for *scalar* quantities, which I would think should make it clear to anyone who isn't looking to score cheap points in an internet discussion that I'm dealing with *scalar* quantities.

*F*shooter = -*F*bullet, *p*shooter = -*p*bullet, *v*shooter = -mbullet * *v*bullet / mshooter, but Fshooter = Fbullet, pshooter = pbullet, and vshooter = mbullet * vbullet / mshooter.

----------


## Gez

> I wonder, could you reach such speeds by jumping, if you're a doctor that trained with Batman?


You could, but you would need a draculabot to surf safely down the surface of the Earth if you don't want to be incinerated upon reentry.

----------


## Radar

> I wonder, could you reach such speeds by jumping, if you're a doctor that trained with Batman?


If you get some useful tips from Bruce Lee, than it might be possible indeed. Being a ninja also helps.

----------


## Vinyadan

> If you get some useful tips from Bruce Lee, than it might be possible indeed. Being a ninja also helps.


I liked how the jump meant a considerable improvement, but left room for even greater achievements: Doc had jumped from the moon, but Bruce managed to reach escape velocity in a much more difficult jump from planet Earth.

----------


## Windscion

Now I wonder about Tedd's choice of variable names. Personally, I can be pretty random.

----------


## Fyraltari

Silly Tedd, programmers *always* judge each other's variable name choices.

Also you better have properly commented that code, child!

----------


## Gez

So what variable naming sin did Tedd commit?

The obfuscated? x1, x2, x3, etc. or some variant of that scheme where all variable names eventually just blur together.
The dummy? foo, bar, baz, etc.
The redundant? myInt, myFloat, myChar, etc. where the name tells you what any IDE would also tell you, but nothing about the variable's actual role.


Or perhaps it was something more like naming the variables after characters from some anime.

----------


## Radar

> So what variable naming sin did Tedd commit?
> 
> The obfuscated? x1, x2, x3, etc. or some variant of that scheme where all variable names eventually just blur together.
> The dummy? foo, bar, baz, etc.
> The redundant? myInt, myFloat, myChar, etc. where the name tells you what any IDE would also tell you, but nothing about the variable's actual role.
> 
> 
> Or perhaps it was something more like naming the variables after characters from some anime.


Most likely some incoherent variable names without particular convention. I would guess the whole code was written without any beforehand planning as it happens with a lot of non-professional programmers, so during revisions some functions and variables needed to be added, some were deleted and the whole thing is probably a patchwork of pieces written at different times with different level of expertise (Tedd learning as he went into the project) that somehow works together.

----------


## DavidSh

Maybe something like this quote from _The Programmer and the Elves_: "It has variables named Shamrock and Rainbow and Misty_Morning_Dew, and some of the most ferocious assembly language subroutines to be found outside the jungles of Borneo."

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

On the subject of propulsion via pistol, Conservation of Momentum is I think a more useful metric than Newton's Laws. Firing a pistol will change your momentum by precisely as much as getting shot by a pistol (assuming the bullet doesn't go all the way through your body). Which is to say, barely (when Mythbusters tested this on a pig, it took a rifle at point blank to even cause it to fall off of the hook it was on, much less go flying backwards).

In microgravity (i.e. space), that little bit of momentum might be significant enough to help. It's certainly safer than what they did in The Martian movie adaptation; poking holes in your suit like that would propel you, but it would also almost certainly start you rotating uncontrollably (one of the many reasons they cited in the book when explicitly rejecting that idea).

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Given Tedd's feelings about getting the glove to work, and given that he never ever expected anyone else to read his code, I'm going to assume there was enough frustration involved in making it operational to invoke the usage of profanity-laced variable names.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Nah, every variable is named Grace.

You've seen his Star Trek ship, you know it's true.

----------


## Maat Mons

And the program has terrible memory leaks because he can't bring himself to deallocate any of the Graces.

----------


## Rater202

Next NP: Rumors that Grace and Ellen are cheating on each other with Nanase.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Next NP: Rumors that Grace and Ellen are cheating on each other with Nanase.


Likely.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be completely shocked if the group started becoming a big polyamorous web. So it's possible that by the end of the 3020s Nananse will also be dating Grace (who may or may not be dating Sarah and/or Sam by that time). Justin, Luke, Elliot, and Ashley will remain in monogamous relationships for representation purposes.

----------


## Rater202

So... Thought.

Tedd still has the other glove.

The one that shaves away a tiny bit of Tedd's magic and stores it so that it can be pumped back into Tedd later to trigger a Supermode.

The one used to power up the magic vision to see the presence of the whales.

the one that Tedd invented to use to fight alongside the others.

The one that looks suspiciously like the gauntlet that Lord Tedd wears.

Tedd might not be as opposed to weapons as Arthur thinks... And that might be a bad thing.

----------


## Celestia

> So... Thought.
> 
> Tedd still has the other glove.
> 
> The one that shaves away a tiny bit of Tedd's magic and stores it so that it can be pumped back into Tedd later to trigger a Supermode.
> 
> The one used to power up the magic vision to see the presence of the whales.
> 
> the one that Tedd invented to use to fight alongside the others.
> ...


That is some Olympic level mental gymnastics there.

----------


## Fyraltari

Isn't that the same glove?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Isn't that the same glove?


No, the enchanting glove stops at the wrist, has few or no visible outside modifications and differently coloured fingers. The gauntlet is longer, has a lot of tech bolted onto it, and is all one colour.

I'm not actually sure if Tedd's thought the implications of his gauntlet through. It's designed to boost his levels of magic energy up to full (ordinary) wizard levels, but it's other functions are unclear (firing beams is a safe bet though). It's possible that Tedd, at the moment, would be fine with less lethal weapons but not intentionally lethal ones.

It's also possible that this is what leads to Lord Tedd.

----------


## Rater202

> That is some Olympic level mental gymnastics there.


Please explain how "Tedd already made a weapon" is a leap to "Tedd might be more okay with weapons than Arthur thinks."

Or how "the weapon Tedd made looks very similar to a signature item of an evil version of Tedd" to "you know, maybe it's a bad thing that Tedd made a weapon."

----------


## Celestia

> Please explain how "Tedd already made a weapon" is a leap to "Tedd might be more okay with weapons than Arthur thinks."
> 
> Or how "the weapon Tedd made looks very similar to a signature item of an evil version of Tedd" to "you know, maybe it's a bad thing that Tedd made a weapon."


It's because you're starting out with a false premise. Tedd did not make a weapon. Tedd made a tool that could potentially kill people, and that distinction is significant. Tedd did not set out to hurt people. It's like how Alfred Nobel invented dynamite to aid in mining and construction. Sure, it _also_ is very good at blowing people up, but that's not why it was made, and Nobel isn't a murderer for making it. Neither is Tedd.

The fact that am evil Tedd from an alternate universe uses something similar could not possibly be more irrelevant. They are different people, and bad people using something doesn't taint it forever. Iron Man isn't evil because some of his villains also use armor suits. You're taking a character who has never displayed any violent tendencies and claiming that they're totally ok with making magic weapons to maim and possibly kill people because something they made could conceivably be misused. The fact that you don't realize how nonsensical this is is hilarious.

----------


## Rater202

Tedd made that gauntlet with the intent of using it the next time someone messed with his friends. That makes it a weapon.

Likewise, Lord Tedd isn't a fully distinct individual. As far as we know, this isn't a mirror universe situation where good people are evil and vice versa: Lord Tedd is being built up as  Tedd who started out the same but had different friends and made different choices.

----------


## Gnoman

I think Tedd would be much more comfortable with being asked to create weapons for the express purpose of protecting people (_including_ the perpetrators, as even the big one's Arthur mentioned are intended for detaining superpowerful threats) than he will be with being tricked into helping them.

----------


## Rater202

So on a whim, I went back to reread the Escape From the Mall NP storyline(I started from Marker) and...

In Marker, it's strongly implied that Pandora marked Liz becuase, while she didn't find a transformation spell, Liz was able to get a spell that would be "useful" to Pandora's plans.

And this was before she found out that her plans were never gonna work out, so...

That... That's one hell of a Chekov's gun.

----------


## Spamotron

Today's EGS:NP 

Whelp it looks like we're leaving Sillyville for a bit to visit Traumatown.

----------


## Celestia

Wait, Ashley's been around for _seven years!?_ What the flock?

----------


## Fyraltari

What is even time?

----------


## Rater202

> What is even time?


An illusion created by the correlation of humanity's imperfect perception of the curvature of space against our rationalization of fact that we're fragile existence hurtling towards our impending death by most likely a slow process of decay but also possibly horrible illness, lack of chemical input, the wrong kind of chemical input, random chance, or something just deciding that we need to be broken.

----------


## Windscion

Glamourpuss Mrs Dunkel chasing little ball-of-energy Elliot is cute!
Also: Part of why Elliot likes to fight is just burning off excess energy? Makes sense.
Also also: Challenge accepted! Elliot's face when he turn to meet Tony reminds me of the (EGS NP) graces.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> What is even time?


It's all the time that passes between the odd stuff.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Kish

"Weren't limited to cuddles"? Is Dan actually implying that Grace has had dreams about sex?

----------


## Windscion

Obviously she means transforming into a fluffier form for better cuddles.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> "Weren't limited to cuddles"? Is Dan actually implying that Grace has had dreams about sex?


Are you implying that this wouldn't be completely normal for most eighteen-year-olds?  :Small Confused: 

Although I'd assume it's more like kissing than leaping to a sex assumption, personally...

----------


## Celestia

> "Weren't limited to cuddles"? Is Dan actually implying that Grace has had dreams about sex?


With the commentary, it sounds like more than just implying.

Also, given her age, it would be unusual if she _wasn't_ having sex dreams.

----------


## Fyraltari

She's clearly dreamt of kissing, which is how babies are made.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> "Weren't limited to cuddles"? Is Dan actually implying that Grace has had dreams about sex?


As others have said, it's completely normal for a girl her age. It would be more surprising if she hadn't.

Plus she's been in a relationship with somebody she's living with for a year. She's probably had sex, it's just not important to the comic (compared to pointing out that she has a normal thought process).

----------


## Rater202

> As others have said, it's completely normal for a girl her age. It would be more surprising if she hadn't.
> 
> Plus she's been in a relationship with somebody she's living with for a year. She's probably had sex, it's just not important to the comic (compared to pointing out that she has a normal thought process).


I recall, many moons ago when I lurked on Dan's forum back on the old egs site, discussion of a post where Dan claimed that the whole main 8 were virgins... except Tedd and Grace, who he did not answer for either way.

This was in the middle of Sister 2, and I never saw the original post.

Two teenagers in a serious relationship are described by multiple people as "practically married" who are _frequently without parental supervision_.

Yeah.

Until stated otherwise, assume that Grace and Tedd have had sex.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I recall, many moons ago when I lurked on Dan's forum back on the old egs site, discussion of a post where Dan claimed that the whole main 8 were virgins... except Tedd and Grace, who he did not answer for either way.
> 
> This was in the middle of Sister 2, and I never saw the original post.
> 
> Two teenagers in a serious relationship are described by multiple people as "practically married" who are _frequently without parental supervision_.
> 
> Yeah.
> 
> Until stated otherwise, assume that Grace and Tedd have had sex.


I mean, I'm also assuming it for Ellen and Nanase, that one's been actively hinted at IIRC.

But yeah, I've been assuming that it happened by the Grace's birthday party arc, if not right back at the beginning. It was pretty clearly telegraphed.llllllllll

----------


## Gnoman

Back when Elliot and Sarah were together, Sarah has an outburst about how nothing has happened "despite her best efforts".

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Back when Elliot and Sarah were together, Sarah has an outburst about how nothing has happened "despite her best efforts".


Yep. Plus, while I'm not searching it out, the comic where Ellen asks Eliot for some superhero clothes implies that she and Nanase have been intimate.

These are Americans in their late teens, apart from the Eliot/Sarah years I'd expect any of them in long term relationships to not be virgins. As to the recently established relationships I honestly expect Luke and Justin to go that far first, Eliot and Ashley will dork around it for fifty dates and Sam is going to need time to both get used to his magic and realise that Sarah knows about it.

----------


## Kish

> Are you implying that this wouldn't be completely normal for most eighteen-year-olds?


I am implying that it would be unprecedented for one of Dan's characters. (Nanase and Ellen have been in a monogamous committed relationship for how long? And the closest the comic gets to spelling out that they've actually had sex is "I had sexy plans this weekend.") Which, don't get me wrong, actually causes me some immersion issues and I'd be delighted if he actually moved past it, but.

----------


## Vinyadan

So you're telling me she's not referring to ritual murder by strangulation?  :Small Eek:

----------


## Lord Raziere

Yeah I'mma be honest: I could list tons of stories more popular than EGS that mention sex _less_. Often the only indication you get the act occurred at all is that a child is there now. Generally frank and clear mentions of sex are confined to two or three things: adult comedies, porn and raunchy dark dramas that are considered "deep". EGS is none of those.

----------


## Kish

So which is OotS? An adult comedy, porn, or a raunchy dark drama?

Also, I am, for some reason I can't put my finger on, skeptical that you can list tons--or even _one_--story that mentions sex less than "not at all." Which you're essentially acknowledging two sentences after you made the claim, just with a goofy claim that "don't actually mention sex" is near-universal.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> So which is OotS? An adult comedy, porn, or a raunchy dark drama?


adult comedy, simple. this is not a hard question. (its also other things. genres aren't mutually exclusive.)

as for pieces of media examples that don't mention sex, ahem: Dragonball*, One Piece*, Naruto*, Fairy Tail*, MHA* Mario, Legend of Zelda, Pokemon, A lot of Classic Disney works, Doctor Who, Bartimaeus Trilogy, Sonic, Halo, Tales of Symphonia, Final Fantasy, Star Wars, TWEWY, all the Spiderman movies, probably Power Rangers, probably Godzilla, Jet Set Radio Future, MLP, Megas XLR, and avatar the Last Airbender, and I'm sure there are more I'm forgetting.

*No amount of admiring the view is actually tasting the cake as it were. if viewing a scantily clad lad or lady counted for this, every time someone goes to the beach would count as sexual. 

and no, romance by itself does not count as a mention. romance is not sex, nor is intimacy as Grace's "cuddles" demonstrate.

----------


## Kish

You said that mention sex _less_ than El Goonish Shive, not that mention it the same amount. 0=0. And congratulations...you've supported "action animes, works for small children, and the Star Wars movies* rarely mention sex," which is a vastly less expansive claim than 'Generally frank and clear mentions of sex are confined to two or three things: adult comedies, porn and raunchy dark dramas that are considered "deep".'

But if you consider El Goonish Shive to be an action anime or something aimed at small children, well, that might explain why I'm boggling at the claim you made**.

*I am afraid I am not going to take your word that Dr. Who never mentions that characters in it have sex.

**It also would if "its also other things. genres aren't mutually exclusive" is meant to imply that you would shove the vast majority of all works into one of the categories you listed as mentioning sex--which one would any Star Trek series go into? I sure wouldn't consider any of them a comedy or a "raunchy dark drama"--but even if you consider El Goonish Shive aimed at a substantially younger audience than I do, or primarily defined by the occasional and usually Elliot-centric fight scene to a level that puts it in the same genre as Dragonball, that would still not justify the tone implication that mentioning "these characters are having sex" is actually rare in general.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I am afraid I am not going to take your word that Dr. Who never mentions that characters in it have sex..


We know the precise night Melody Pond was conceived.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> We know the precise night Melody Pond was conceived.


To be fair, modern Doctor Who mentions this far more than Classic Who, argle blargle Susan blah blah Looms something something official word is that Gallifreyans have sex.

EGS has touched upon sex a couple of times. I'm not certain it's ever been more direct than this or the Sarah/Nanase discussion though. Honestly I'd rather have it not come up rather than have it handled immaturely. The comic has firmly established that characters are interested in sex and that Susan is not interested in participating. Unless We're going to have a plot about the characters having sex that's probably enough.

----------


## Kish

> To be fair, modern Doctor Who mentions this far more than Classic Who, argle blargle Susan blah blah Looms something something official word is that Gallifreyans have sex.


I freely concede that if you go back half a century suddenly Lord Raziere's statement is not only accurate but doesn't go far enough. Not really seeing the relevance to EGS there though.

And I think we have different definitions of "immature."

----------


## Vinyadan

> EGS has touched upon sex a couple of times. I'm not certain it's ever been more direct than this [...]


I think it's also a matter of style and genre. Early EGS was influenced by '90s comedy where being a pain was a viable shtick, and Tedd was one of those characters, plus a horny little pervert (there's actually a strip in which he discovers he grew out of it). Later it become very feel-driven and meditative.

----------


## Maat Mons

Looking at that old comic, it occurs to me that conception can occur up to a week after intercourse.  So being in an infertile form _at the time_, may not be enough.  But thinking about this too hard will raise unanswerable questions.  Questions like "What happens if a pregnant woman transforms into a man?"  

Also, whenever someone with children talks about the danger of unwanted pregnancy, the subtext I always imagine is "You don't want to end up like me.  I had so many other things I wanted to do in life.  I wasted my best years taking care of an ungrateful little hellion."

----------


## Fyraltari

> Also, whenever someone with children talks about the danger of unwanted pregnancy, the subtext I always imagine is "You don't want to end up like me.  I had so many other things I wanted to do in life.  I wasted my best years taking care of an ungrateful little hellion."


Tedd is not even legally an adult in that comic. I think it's entirely fair to say that it's too early in his life for having a child. He's not responsible enough.

----------


## Radar

> Also, whenever someone with children talks about the danger of unwanted pregnancy, the subtext I always imagine is "You don't want to end up like me.  I had so many other things I wanted to do in life.  I wasted my best years taking care of an ungrateful little hellion."


It does not have to be like that. The thing with pregnancy and child rearing is that it is a serious commitment usually for more than 20 years. You have to be really ready for this mentally. Otherwise you can easily mess up your life and that of your child. We got our children with my wife as we planned, but looking back at myself at an age of for example 20, I know it would have been a very bad idea to have children back then. Even more so for my teenage years.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Guessing that this villain form is going to be important considering it's being brought up again. Most likely a trade of restraint in exchange for extra points, and possibly fishnet stockings. So Eliot won't go around destroying buildings for fun, but they will be more violent and confrontational.

----------


## Taevyr

Now starting a petition to call the villain form "Evilliot"

----------


## Celestia

> Guessing that this villain form is going to be important considering it's being brought up again. Most likely a trade of restraint in exchange for extra points, and possibly fishnet stockings. So Eliot won't go around destroying buildings for fun, but they will be more violent and confrontational.


Interesting. I said it was going to be important a month ago, and everyone jumped down my throat to say how wrong I was.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Interesting. I said it was going to be important a month ago, and everyone jumped down my throat to say how wrong I was.


Whelp guess I better pick up the phone then, cause you called it. Kudos.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Interesting. I said it was going to be important a month ago, and everyone jumped down my throat to say how wrong I was.


Yep. I talked about it as well.




> Yeah, this is likely a reworking of the old Inner Demons idea. Although if we're lucky it'll instead be used to dive into potentially questionable aspects of Eliot's morality.
> 
> Like, we're going to see this villain form at some point, probably in four decades, and its actions are going to be based on Eliot's personality (be else why else include it). It being a kind of inverted morality is much less interesting than smaller twists. Especially if (speculation time) the form can exist in it's powered state for extended periods.


Although I shall take my hat off to everybody who called it being important I the near future. Hyperbole aside, I honestly thought that this was being set up for years down the line.

----------


## Maat Mons

If she's a sinister version of Cheerleadra, shouldn't her name be something like Agitatress, Instigatrix, Rabble-Rousette, Agente Provocatrice, or Ringleaderinna?

----------


## Gez

> If she's a sinister version of Cheerleadra, shouldn't her name be something like Agitatress, Instigatrix, Rabble-Rousette, Agente Provocatrice, or Ringleaderinna?


I'd be partial to Jeerleadra or Sneerleadra.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Rater202

Hey, Mama Kitsune. Papa Kitsune. Not cool. Never assume that your legally an adult child is willing to do things and then make demands at the last minute.

Especially you, Mama Kitsune. You were doing so well about easing off of the toxic behaviors. Granted, not by much, but...

I mean, they're still needs to be some kind of confrontation regarding Mama Kitsune thinking that Nanase's attraction to girls is just a phase and... Every other bit of Toxic parenting behavior that's never been addressed... And the keeping secrets that shouldn't be kept secret stuff*

So, place your bets: Tedd confronting Edward on Edward's disapproval vs Nanase confronting Mama Kitsune on Mama Kitsune's long history of toxic parenting. Which will come first.

*"We come from a long line of monster hunters, our family may have enemies. Especially your aunt" is information that Nanase and Akiko are entitled to.

----------


## Fyraltari

This is what you get for answering your phone without excusing yourself from the conversation, Elliot! Have you no manners? Your parents raised you better than this!

Edit:



> *"We come from a long line of monster hunters, our family may have enemies. Especially your aunt" is information that Nanase and Akiko are entitled to.


Akiko is definitely too young to have to worry about that.

----------


## Rater202

> Akiko is definitely too young to have to worry about that.


I'm not saying they need to know *now* but it's also not something that Nanase should have found out from a warlock attacking her to get revenge on Noriko.

Like, Mama Kitsune knows that Nanase has magic. This is something Nanase should have been told the second Mama Kitsune found out about Nanase's magic.

And if Akiko doesn't find out by the time she's 18, then Mama Kitsune has failed as a mother becuase "people might attack you over what your ancestors/aunt did" is, again, information that people are inherently entitled to.

----------


## Kish

> Interesting. I said it was going to be important a month ago, and everyone jumped down my throat to say how wrong I was.


I don't agree with that characterization of what happened previously, and my position then--that I very much hope Elliott has the minimal brainpower to not actually use this "villain form", "violations of Chekov's Gun" aside--isn't shifting based on the latest few comics (indeed, demonstrating that Elliott has considered that he could become a villain and recoiled from it previously does not sound like evidence that at some point he'll assume the villain form). (Oh wow, Elliott's still thinking about what he was an hour ago! Clearly this is the new focus of the comic!) (Although, since you went and put the previous exchange on the table, I am going to comment to Anonymouswizard that, looking at two-for-two "it's something Elliott's going to do or it would never have been brought up/it's going to be important since it's been brought up again," I gather you really want Elliott to turn into his villain form for some reason--if that's what's meant by "it being important"; the equating of the exchange now with the previous one suggests it is, but I would not inherently treat those as the same statement.)



> Akiko is definitely too young to have to worry about that.


Somehow I do not think Not-Tengu would be swayed by, "You can't do something awful to her! She's too young to have to worry about you!"

----------


## Fyraltari

> Somehow I do not think Not-Tengu would be swayed by, "You can't do something awful to her! She's too young to have to worry about you!"


There's nothing Akiko could have done to Not-Tengu anyway. Telling her that people moght come and murder her and her family to a child wouldn't help make her safe, it would just terrify her and possibly harm her development.

----------


## Rater202

So the implications are that Bishop learned entirely the wrong lessons from Authur, right?

----------


## Fyraltari

> So the implications are that Bishop learned entirely the wrong lessons from Authur, right?


Well, I think she got her fashion sense elsewhere, but otherwise yes.

----------


## Maat Mons

Oh no!  The comic turned 20 today!  The thread title is now inaccurate!

----------


## Qwertystop

> Oh no!  The comic turned 20 today!  The thread title is now inaccurate!


Corrected, I think.

----------


## Vinyadan

I'm a bit late, but congratulations to Dan for sticking to it for twenty years!

----------


## Rater202

Okay, not gonna lie, having Tedd go wouldn't be a bad idea

Tedd is: Relatively friendly, intelligent, likely to get on good terms with science griffin... And ungodly powerful magically speaking, which, under the hypothesis that magic power correlates to authority and perceived authority may result in a more positive reaction.

...Though, as I type this it occurs to me that someone _too_ powerful might be taken as a threat.

----------


## Windscion

If Ed Verres is even considering bringing the senior Dunkels along, that means that at some point they were highly trained in some field or other. Which is difficult to reconcile with Mrs Dunkel dropping out of college to raise a child.

----------


## Gez

I think it's just more of Ed's parental blindness. Fact is that bringing Grace and Tedd would be good ideas, and neither of them would have much to fear (Grace after all comes from a weird supersoldier program and she is absurdly powerful, Tedd could make a wand or watch of very expeditious retreat if needed), while bringing in the Dunkels would be a terrible idea. (Unless Dan Shives is going for the surprise reveal that they're overpowered badasses too but that wouldn't bring anything interesting to the story as well as contradict all their previous characterization.)

Adults that could be called in: Adrian Raven and Sensei Greg. Would be nice to see Greg again, actually.

----------


## Kish

Thank you for being the voice of reason here, Tedd.

("Let's make a ton of preparations for them to attack us!" is an excellent approach if you want to maximize the likelihood of your current amicable relationship breaking down.)

----------


## Fyraltari

> If Ed Verres is even considering bringing the senior Dunkels along, that means that at some point they were highly trained in some field or other. Which is difficult to reconcile with Mrs Dunkel dropping out of college to raise a child.


There's a running gag of the Dunkels being bizarrely competent in supernatural matters for a while.

----------


## Vinyadan

Yep, first they were oddly lenient and unfazed about the whole Elliot-Ellen thing, then they turned out oddly well-organised when they mounted a search party to look for Ellen when she was possessed by Sirlek.

----------


## Radar

> Yep, first they were oddly lenient and unfazed about the whole Elliot-Ellen thing, then they turned out oddly well-organised when they mounted a search party to look for Ellen when she was possessed by Sirlek.


And there is also the fact that Elliot is not even really sure what they are doing for a living.

----------


## Maat Mons

Clearly, spikey-haired girl should be named Barb.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Clearly, spikey-haired girl should be named Barb.


My hatred for this idea is only matched by my desire for it to come true.

----------


## Taevyr

While I know the "has anyone ever named a character 'Spike' before" is likely in jest, the realization that Cowboy Bebop is likely no longer a mainstay of geeky anime kids/youths (beyond maybe the live action thing, if I remember correctly) hit me surprisingly hard there.

Probably will be rewatching it in a few days now. It's how these things tend to go.

----------


## Mystic Muse

> While I know the "has anyone ever named a character 'Spike' before" is likely in jest, the realization that Cowboy Bebop is likely no longer a mainstay of geeky anime kids/youths (beyond maybe the live action thing, if I remember correctly) hit me surprisingly hard there.
> 
> Probably will be rewatching it in a few days now. It's how these things tend to go.


It's definitely in jest. I believe Dan has made references to Buffy the Vampire Slayer abd My Little Pony, both of which also have characters named Spike. That's just what I can think of offhand. 

Land Before Time as another thing that immediately comes to mind, though no reference to that has ever been made as far as I recall.

----------


## Gez

Don't forget about Spike Lee and Spike Trotman. Yeah they're real people instead of characters but it totally counts.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

And yet everybody forgets Spike Milligan.

----------


## Maat Mons

According to Wikipedia, there's a character named Spike in the Dragonball franchise, and one from Happy Days.

----------


## Rater202

> It's definitely in jest. I believe Dan has made references to Buffy the Vampire Slayer abd My Little Pony, both of which also have characters named Spike.


They also both have a character named Angel. Spike and Angel do not get along.

----------


## Celestia

> While I know the "has anyone ever named a character 'Spike' before" is likely in jest, the realization that Cowboy Bebop is likely no longer a mainstay of geeky anime kids/youths (beyond maybe the live action thing, if I remember correctly) hit me surprisingly hard there.
> 
> Probably will be rewatching it in a few days now. It's how these things tend to go.


The Netflix adaptation did a lot to bring Cowboy Bebop into popular consciousness. Sure, it sucked, but the name is probably more recognizable now than it's ever been. Even bad live action has a wider spread than good anime.

----------


## Maat Mons

Did Mr. Verres just acknowledge Tedd as a (sometimes) woman?  Or was he counting the Kitsunes as family?  But Akiko never struck me as stubborn.

----------


## Windscion

She refused extra cookies & smuggled milk and cookies to Nanase against their mother's wishes. I'd say that shows backbone.

----------


## Gez

> Did Mr. Verres just acknowledge Tedd as a (sometimes) woman?  Or was he counting the Kitsunes as family?  But Akiko never struck me as stubborn.


You forgot the woman who abandoned Tedd and him...

----------


## Maat Mons

I remembered her, but if she and Grace were the only two women in the family, the phrasing "every other woman" would be weird, "the other woman" would be the expected phrasing.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I remembered her, but if she and Grace were the only two women in the family, the phrasing "every other woman" would be weird, "the other woman" would be the expected phrasing.


Mr. Verres probably has a mother, though.

But yes, I think he meant the Kitsunes.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Mr. Verres probably has a mother, though.
> 
> But yes, I think he meant the Kitsunes.


Let's not discount Edward's potential siblings!

But yeah, he if he was just talking about himself, Tedd, and Grace he'd have likely used household instead of family. He's including Noriko at a minimum, and while we have no idea how wide a net he's casting he's from a line of powerful wizards and his wife's from a family of monster hunters. Both lend themselves to stubbornness.

----------


## Kish

It would be really weird if Edward said "family" and _didn't_ mean his child's aunt who lives in the same town as him and her children. So...Noriko, Akiko, Nanase, and Nanase's-mother-who-doesn't-have-a-name (but sure has a lot of tortured apologetics on the fanwikis, sheesh).

----------


## Rater202

> (but sure has a lot of tortured apologetics on the fanwikis, sheesh).


...What does this mean in context?

----------


## Celestia

> ...What does this mean in context?


I would assume it means there are lots of people (or a few really loud people) who try justifying Nanase's mother as not being that bad.

----------


## Rater202

Grace, you don't know what you're getting into.

With his exaggerated musculature and flamboyant poses and attitude, that guy *clearly* has a Stand.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Grace, you don't know what you're getting into.
> 
> With his exaggerated musculature and flamboyant poses and attitude, that guy *clearly* has a Stand.


No Rater, She is an idealistic young teen who doesn't get the social etiquette around her and has great power hidden within herself.

that is practically the most powerful thing in shonen battle anime to ever exist. it wouldn't matter if he had the best stand for dodgeball, or even the greatest most powerful Stand to ever exist, because mid way through the fight when all hope seems lost, she'd suddenly have a better one. worse, he is a smug arrogant jerk who is questioning her power and thinks she thinks too highly of herself- he's practically the shonen battle protag's normal prey.

----------


## Maat Mons

Then again, when that guy was surprised at the end of the previous strip, his hair indicates he was on the verge of going super-sayan.  

Then again-again, Grace's hairstyle suggests she's somehow connected to Kurama.  And he's not someone you want to mess with, lest you end up like Elder Toguro.

----------


## Gez

That guy would do well to wear a cup.

You know, just in case.

----------


## Windscion

Yes, yes, Sarah likes wands. We get it, she's the token het.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Yes, yes, Sarah likes wands. We get it, she's the token het.


Take my approval and get out!

----------


## Celestia

> Yes, yes, Sarah likes wands. We get it, she's the token het.


OMG :O

That's hilarious.

----------


## Radar

> Yes, yes, Sarah likes wands. We get it, she's the token het.


Not quite as she considers herself 1 on Kinsey scale, well... at most 2.

----------


## Celestia

> Not quite as she considers herself 1 on Kinsey scale, well... at most 2.


Yeah, I do get the impression that she's a bisexual in denial. She may be straight-leaning, but I don't think she's entirely straight.

Which does mean that this comic doesn't have a cishet main character. The closest is Elliot, and he's probably not het or cis.

----------


## Rater202

> Yeah, I do get the impression that she's a bisexual in denial. She may be straight-leaning, but I don't think she's entirely straight.
> 
> Which does mean that this comic doesn't have a cishet main character. The closest is Elliot, and he's probably not het or cis.


Elliot has outright stated he identifies as "gender casual" and Susan postulates that he means agender when he saysthis after he explains it, so... No, Elliot is not Cis.

As for his seuxuality... If he doens't have a gender, I don't think that terms like hetero or homo accuratly apply to him.

I think. Don't quote me on that.

...This might be a question for the LGBTAI thread.

----------


## Windscion

> Yeah, I do get the impression that she's a bisexual in denial. She may be straight-leaning, but I don't think she's entirely straight.
> 
> Which does mean that this comic doesn't have a cishet main character. The closest is Elliot, and he's probably not het or cis.


Finding Noah hot is ... kind of an unfair test of heterosexuality? I mean, Noah has the androgynous thing going, probably due at least in part to his Uryuom heritage. My point here is that he may well be NB, even if he presents as male. (Given his prehensile hair, he must have some Uryuom heritage, even if he isn't an alt of dream-verse Archie.) And yeah, Elliot isn't really cis anymore.

Sarah is maybe less in denial and more unwilling to (in her eyes) get between Grace and Tedd. For any value of "between" that you choose.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Yeah, I do get the impression that she's a bisexual in denial. She may be straight-leaning, but I don't think she's entirely straight.
> 
> Which does mean that this comic doesn't have a cishet main character. The closest is Elliot, and he's probably not het or cis.


Yeah, Sarah is somewhere between hetereoflexible and bi/pan. Elliot is NB but his attraction leads female (same for Tedd, I think), we've got two clear cisgender gay characters, and whatever Ellen identifies as.

Grace, I think, is cis-het but also demi? I've never understood if uyrom-style attraction is supposed to be different to being demi or if Dan/Tedd just didn't know the term.

----------


## Rater202

> Yeah, Sarah is somewhere between hetereoflexible and bi/pan. Elliot is NB but his attraction leads female (same for Tedd, I think), we've got two clear cisgender gay characters, and whatever Ellen identifies as.
> 
> Grace, I think, is cis-het but also demi? I've never understood if uyrom-style attraction is supposed to be different to being demi or if Dan/Tedd just didn't know the term.


Tedd is explicitly genderfluid, feeling more male or female on some days than on others or in different situations.. And not accounting for the effects of the TF gun, is exclusively attracted to females.

Grace has stated that she's attracted to Tedd regardless of form due to sensing his emotions but is otherwise attracted to boys when in female form and attracted to girls when in male form. Or well, at least she leans towards that way.

Grace's gender identity hasn't been specified. Dan has gone on record as stating that Will and Gill's "Uryuoms don't have genders" is becuase he didn't know the difference between sex and gender at the time and that Uryuosms do have gender identities and assume gender roles among cultures that have them, so... Since Grace is almost exclusively in female form I'm gonna assume she identifies as female until specified otherwise.

If only by default

----------


## Fyraltari

SO Kevin is disappointed in Ashley, confused by Grace, willing to train Sarah and can tell that Tedd needs no more training.

Do I have that right?

----------


## Gez

I'd tend to think it's more that Kevin accepts that Sarah is here for the lessons, but I'm not sure whether it will actually attempt to train Sarah because she's not a wizard. While Mittens is.

----------


## Windscion

He's disappointed in _Mittens_, and is willing to accept that Sarah is just a wizard groupie. And maybe Grace is a wizards familiar?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Tedd meanwhile probably just registers as a fully trained wizard. They might not have a lot of power, and they might not be able to cast them, but they do  know a lot of spells.

----------


## Rater202

> Tedd meanwhile probably just registers as a fully trained wizard. They might not have a lot of power, and they might not be able to cast them, but they do  know a lot of spells.


Tedd explicitly has an _absurd_ amount of power. Luke wa blinded by Tedd's aura when Grace, "the most magically overpowered thing in Moperville," only had a slightly thicker and more defined aura than other users.

Pandora states that the reason the wand didn't detect Tedd's power is becuase Tedd was powerful enough to reflexively resist the detection spell and that Tedd is a font of power.

Also, Dan has stated more than once that Tedd prefers whatever pronouns match the sex of the form she's currently in, so... She.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Tedd explicitly has an _absurd_ amount of power. Luke wa blinded by Tedd's aura when Grace, "the most magically overpowered thing in Moperville," only had a slightly thicker and more defined aura than other users.
> 
> Pandora states that the reason the wand didn't detect Tedd's power is becuase Tedd was powerful enough to reflexively resist the detection spell and that Tedd is a font of power.
> 
> Also, Dan has stated more than once that Tedd prefers whatever pronouns match the sex of the form she's currently in, so... She.


We know there's something up with Tedd, we don't have any confirmation that they're a massive magical generator yet. I'd honestly been working under the assumption that Seer enchantment nullification powers were the reason the spell filed, it honestly felt like the simplest solution.

Plus I don't even know what year the comic's set in, Tedd could be in any form at 15:37GMT 4/2/2022 and I wouldn't have a clue.

----------


## Rater202

I think a guy who can see power levels as auras being blinded by Tedd's aura couple with Pandora explicitly stating that Tedd will never need to draw on ambient energy because she is a "Font of Power" is hard confirmation that Tedd is in fact a magical powerhouse.

Also, Dan edited the comic with a note in the commentary


> EDIT - Kevin originally told Tedd "YOU PASS!" with the same intent, but that seemed to confuse readers, and I wasn't going for ambiguity. *Kevin is reacting to Tedd's immense magic power as a seer.*


Kevin now says "graduated."

----------


## Kish

Tedd has immense magical power. The text part of the comic says so.

Pandora also said that Luke's magic detection spell didn't "work properly" on Tedd. She didn't say why. Of course, that was back when "Tedd is a wizard with a quirk" hadn't been revealed.

----------


## Maat Mons

Elliot's there?  And he's not in one of his female forms?  I had been thinking all these girls hanging out with a magical instructor could be the origin story for a group of Magical Girls.  But Elliot's  ruining it.  Elliot, stop being so selfish and transform into a girl!

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Well, we now know that Grace doesn't have Captain America's ability to predict where a bounced object will end up.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Celestia

> Well, we now know that Grace doesn't have Captain America's ability to predict where a bounced object will end up.


I could be wrong, but I believe she has been stated as having enhanced intelligence and is particularly good at math. If so, she should actually be able to do just that. However, she didn't know how hard she'd hit the ball and, thus, didn't take the ball's trajectory into account. Intelligence only matters if you use it.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I could be wrong, but I believe she has been stated as having enhanced intelligence and is particularly good at math. If so, she should actually be able to do just that. However, she didn't know how hard she'd hit the ball and, thus, didn't take the ball's trajectory into account. Intelligence only matters if you use it.


Math has nothing to do with that kind of ability.

Do you know how many Newtons of force you've exerced on a ball you punched? No, then it doesn't matter how good your are with equations, you won't be able to calculat its trajectory, you'll have to guess based on isntinct and experience, like the rest of us.

----------


## Celestia

> Math has nothing to do with that kind of ability.
> 
> Do you know how many Newtons of force you've exerced on a ball you punched? No, then it doesn't matter how good your are with equations, you won't be able to calculat its trajectory, you'll have to guess based on isntinct and experience, like the rest of us.


What the actual f***? It's geometry.  :Small Annoyed:

----------


## Lord Raziere

> What the actual f***? It's geometry.


Yeah but you don't have a ruler or anything, how could just tell the measurement by sight then match your throw to that? that sounds like fictional genius stuff not actual math.

----------


## Fyraltari

> What the actual f***? It's geometry.


No, it's physics.
Edit: What's the weight of the ball? What's its air resistance? What's the immediate speed you're imparting to it? All the math skill in the world won't help you solve m*a = m*g - r*v if you don't any of those values.

----------


## Celestia

Damn. You all make some very compelling arguments. I guess that's why billiards is literally impossible to play. No one can possibly calculate the angles of a shot without knowing air resistance. :eyeroll:

----------


## theNater

> Damn. You all make some very compelling arguments. I guess that's why billiards is literally impossible to play. No one can possibly calculate the angles of a shot without knowing air resistance. :eyeroll:


The point is that virtually no one is _calculating_ the angles of a shot.  They are roughly estimating them, and Grace's array of computational abilities are not helpful in making those rough estimations.

----------


## Gnoman

Billiards is also a bad comparison because you have all the time you need to plan out your shot and apply precisely the amount of force you intend to. You're not having to hit the ball in a split-second window.


Even then, if you put the world's greatest math genius who has never played before in front of a pool table and hand him a cue, he'll have a pretty difficult time succeeding on pure math.

----------


## awa

If all you needed was geometry than pro athletes would all be math majors, heck if math was even a little bit useful geometry would be a hard focus for every sports team but its just not useful not for this. Humans rely a lot on instincts and muscle memory for physical actions and in general athletes perform worse when they spend time thinking about the mechanics of what they are doing rather than just doing it.

I mean pick a ball and try to bounce it off a wall back into your hand, now go through what you actually did, did you consider the geometry at all or did you just eyeball it?

Fictional super genius often do that kind of stuff all the time but well its just fiction.

----------


## Celestia

> The point is that virtually no one is _calculating_ the angles of a shot.  They are roughly estimating them, and Grace's array of computational abilities are not helpful in making those rough estimations.


What in the world do you think your brain is doing when you're "estimating?" It's calculating angles. 




> Billiards is also a bad comparison because you have all the time you need to plan out your shot and apply precisely the amount of force you intend to. You're not having to hit the ball in a split-second window.


"It's a bad comparison because you're doing literally the exact same thing just slower. Therefore, it's completely invalid to your argument that Grace is good at doing this thing quickly."




> Even then, if you put the world's greatest math genius who has never played before in front of a pool table and hand him a cue, he'll have a pretty difficult time succeeding on pure math.


What's your argument here? Either you're trying to say that math is useless in billiards (proving you have no idea what you're talking about) or this statement is just irrelevant. Whatever the case, you're not winning any points here.

----------


## Celestia

> ... heck if math was even a little bit useful geometry would be a hard focus for every sports team ...


Except it is. It's just framed differently. They're not sitting in a classroom finding X, but they are practicing their kicks or throws or whatever to learn what force and angle works in what situation. But they're not just haphazardly guessing because then they'd never make any progress. Your brain subconsciously learns the math so you can apply it later.

----------


## theNater

> What in the world do you think your brain is doing when you're "estimating?"


Mostly remembering, as I understand it.  

Let me ask a question to check a definition: Would you say someone reciting a poem is calculating what word comes next?

----------


## Celestia

> Mostly remembering, as I understand it.  
> 
> Let me ask a question to check a definition: Would you say someone reciting a poem is calculating what word comes next?


Wow. This argument makes so little sense I don't think I can possibly address it without devolving into base insults. All I can say is that you clearly don't even understand what "thinking" is if you're confusing it with memories.

----------


## Radar

> Except it is. It's just framed differently. They're not sitting in a classroom finding X, but they are practicing their kicks or throws or whatever to learn what force and angle works in what situation. But they're not just haphazardly guessing because then they'd never make any progress. Your brain subconsciously learns the math so you can apply it later.


It's less doing math and more creating a look-up table for the brain in a very specific situation so a conscious command of "send the ball there" is translated directly into specific commands for the muscles without doing any calculations whatsoever - that would only slow you down in a situation where you need an immediate response. The training is also very much about the precision of your moves.

So being able to calculate things quickly consciously does not have to have any bearing on being able to instinctively estimate where you send a volleyball - especially since Grace was not even sure how strong she is in this form and went all-out anyway just to be sure to win. Also, solving geometrical problems is very different from just crunching numbers and it was not established, if Grace can solve any mathematical problem quickly - just that she is fast in calculating numbers.

There is also another simple fact that math and moving the body are done by different parts of your brain, so even if we were to agree that semantically you are doing math while aiming a football or volleyball shot, this would still be completely unrelated to doing math consciously. This is also why thinking about what you are doing messes you up in sports.

----------


## theNater

> Wow. This argument makes so little sense I don't think I can possibly address it without devolving into base insults. All I can say is that you clearly don't even understand what "thinking" is if you're confusing it with memories.


I'm starting to believe I don't understand the terms are you are using them, which is why I'm asking these clarification questions.

Is it your position that retrieving memories is not a form of thinking?

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Wow, didn't expect this to be such a hot topic.

Billiards is a bad example in this case, which is why I made a Captain America joke originally, because the 2D nature of the game doesn't take into account gravity, and the small heavy balls and soft surface minimize the influence of friction and air resistance. Also, you have a long stick to help you visualize the ball's trajectory for at least the first leg of its journey.

But I guess this forum is the wrong place to make a simple joke.

----------


## Windscion

> ... I guess this forum is the wrong place to make a simple joke.


Can I make this my new sig?

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Absolutely! :D

----------


## Anonymouswizard

New comic, and if Kevin was intentionally sentient him knowing the food pyramid would make complete sense. He obviously has a broad knowledge of what's beneficial to his pupil's recovery, and it allows him to make a rough guess without knowing the latest knowledge.

Of course, he was an unplanned child, so who knows what he knows or why.

----------


## Fyraltari

He'd need a broad knowledge base just to speak English anyway.

----------


## Maat Mons

It's much weirder that he recognized Arthur as his father.  He shouldn't have any memories from before he gained sentience.

----------


## Radar

What I find even weirder is that Kevin does not have a mouth and yet he chews scenery like there's no tomorrow.  :Small Wink: 

I particularly like his dietary comment: "whatever the best guess is for proper nutrition these days."

----------


## Maat Mons

Barb's name has been revealed to be Camelia.  It is a sad day.

----------


## Taevyr

Well then, seems like Grace almost got Isekai'd.

----------


## Radar

I like Mr. Verres: being too enthusiastic is a bad sign for a potentially risky job. His comment on being glad he does not have to do the cover up was also good. I think being moved to a diplomatic position serves him well.

----------


## Windscion

Narratively, the griffins aren't the problem. But meeting Grace may well cause them to give our cast a heads up to the real problem: the pyro Uryuom who wants to kill/enslave humans and take over the planet, and who has access to magic again. (See https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2004-03-03 (prophecy) https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2018-05-04 Uryuoms blocked and https://www.egscomics.com/comic/sister3-299 Uryuom magic restored.)
After all, if Uryuoms do not come from outer space, logically they may well come from the "other half" of this world.

----------


## Kish

The "pyro uruyom" you linked is Damien. He blew himself up fighting Grace a long time ago.

"No, your optimistic attitude is all wrong, you need to go into this meeting with powerful and friendly people freaked out about the possibility of them attacking us" is a disastrously bad approach for a diplomat.

----------


## Rater202

> The "pyro uruyom" you linked is Damien. He blew himself up fighting Grace a long time ago.


On the Contrary: Dmien was a Chimera created by religious fanatics who got tired of waiting for their "Master of Fire."

Much more recently, after Magic's not change, we saw an uryom light fires with magic while doing evil laughter.

----------


## Kish

Oh. You're both treating "Oh, and I guess there's an Uryuom pyromaniac or something. I dunno." as a sternly factual statement about who is lighting the candle and essential future plot points.

Well, it's better than forgetting the bulk of Paint it Black, I suppose.

----------


## Rater202

> Oh. You're both treating "Oh, and I guess there's an Uryuom pyromaniac or something. I dunno." as a sternly factual statement about who is lighting the candle and essential future plot points.
> 
> Well, it's better than forgetting the bulk of Paint it Black, I suppose.


Dude...

Damien completly and utterly failed to live up to the prophecy. He didn't "unite the Chimeric outcastes of the world," he just killed a bunch of people and terrorized some child soldiers.

When we're told that there's an Uryuom language prophecy about a "being of power" and a "master of fire" that's *still in play* because the only posisble person so far that could have fulfilled it was 1: An active attempt at manufacturing the individual and 2: Died without coming close and *then* see an Uryuom giving into evil laughter after casting fire spells specifically...

Yeah, there's a connection there. If there wasn't we could have seen literally any other display of magic.

If that's not tied to the prophecy then that would be narratively unsatisfying.

----------


## Vinyadan

On one hand, I'd be happy if it's connected to the prophecy. On the other hand, we saw the uryom cast spells from a wand, which doesn't imply he's a master of fire in a special way, just that he can use a fire wand. 

We also saw that an uryom army attacked Herak to gain access to human magic, and one of the golems used in the attack was at the Badly Guarded facility. It probably has something to do with the fire wand guy (at least, it must have been the reason why he earlier was severed from magic).

----------


## theNater

> "No, your optimistic attitude is all wrong, you need to go into this meeting with powerful and friendly people freaked out about the possibility of them attacking us" is a disastrously bad approach for a diplomat.


Me, I would like her to be concerned enough about how the meeting will go that she doesn't do this again.  I feel like that could be a problem.

----------


## Gnoman

The dialogue in panel 3 is really odd, and I can't tell if it is supposed to be.

"any dark clothes that need washing not back there" isn't a wrong sentence and has a meaning that can be parsed, but it isn't something I'd ever expect to hear.

----------


## Rater202

And Saturday's NP will have Grace asked if she is also magic.

Since, you know, everyone has seen Nanase floating in the halls.

----------


## Qwertystop

> The dialogue in panel 3 is really odd, and I can't tell if it is supposed to be.
> 
> "any dark clothes that need washing not back there" isn't a wrong sentence and has a meaning that can be parsed, but it isn't something I'd ever expect to hear.


Tracks perfectly to me.

----------


## Taevyr

> The dialogue in panel 3 is really odd, and I can't tell if it is supposed to be.
> 
> "any dark clothes that need washing not back there" isn't a wrong sentence and has a meaning that can be parsed, but it isn't something I'd ever expect to hear.


It feels like a normal sentence for everyday speech, but a bit oddly structured for use in a literary medium. Especially when it comes out of nowhere  :Small Tongue:

----------


## webrunner

someone should put this current arc in cronological order when it's done

----------


## Gez

> someone should put this current arc in cronological order when it's done


What a silly idea!




> When that part of the storyline is over, someone will have to put a list of all the pages in chronological order.


 :Small Big Grin:

----------


## webrunner

> What a silly idea!



Well obviously the next step is to go full Haruhi and come up with a completely separate also anachronical 'airing order'

----------


## Wildstag

The discussion in today's comic once again makes me sad for the English language and it's lack of gradient in speech. Scared implies passive and active fear, whereas a word for "healthy respect/fear" doesn't really exist, and putting it that way verbally sounds like an excuse. 

A healthy amount of concern and risk mitigation kinda needs a different set of shorthand words than just "scared"; it's just such a severe word.

----------


## Taevyr

> The discussion in today's comic once again makes me sad for the English language and it's lack of gradient in speech. Scared implies passive and active fear, whereas a word for "healthy respect/fear" doesn't really exist, and putting it that way verbally sounds like an excuse. 
> 
> A healthy amount of concern and risk mitigation kinda needs a different set of shorthand words than just "scared"; it's just such a severe word.


"Wary" perhaps? It's the closest to that I can think of, but it might not carry the entire load. Not a native speaker.

----------


## Kish

I think Sarah meant what she said.

I also think she's right about Elliott's reaction and the people here attempting to paint said reaction as more reason-based than she did (plus Elliott, who immediately had the same reaction as some posts here seem to be) are wrong.

That said, I am somewhat confused. The comic seems to be setting up for a "see, the way you act legitimately scares other people" lesson for Elliott, but he has never struck me as thinking himself better than he actually is; on his first date with Ashley, he tried to convince her his fondness for fighting bullies made him a bad person.

----------


## Gnoman

> I think Sarah meant what she said.
> 
> I also think she's right about Elliott's reaction and the people here attempting to paint said reaction as more reason-based than she did (plus Elliott, who immediately had the same reaction as some posts here seem to be) are wrong.
> 
> That said, I am somewhat confused. The comic seems to be setting up for a "see, the way you act legitimately scares other people" lesson for Elliott, but he has never struck me as thinking himself better than he actually is; on his first date with Ashley, he tried to convince her his fondness for fighting bullies made him a bad person.


This feels like the setup for Elliot having his own "Lord Tedd" moment - getting a strong look at what he would be if he became the Bad Guy. And, conversely, that he isn't a _Bad Guy_ now.

----------


## Fyraltari

"You didn't like me at first?
-In my defense, the comic used to be way edgier. Remember when people called me "Shade Tail"? Like, unironically call me that?"

----------


## Kish

Gah. There's no ambiguity in the strip Dan links that Grace was (correctly, if you read the next few strips) concerned that Elliott was going to brush Sarah off with "it's a crush and I have a girlfriend." Unnecessary retcons, we hates them, my precious.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Gah. There's no ambiguity in the strip Dan links that Grace was (correctly, if you read the next few strips) concerned that Elliott was going to brush Sarah off with "it's a crush and I have a girlfriend." Unnecessary retcons, we hates them, my precious.


I think Dan wanted to point out the specific "Ugh, I wonder why" reaction to the notion that Sarah wants to date Elliot rather than the concerns about Elliot's plans for the evening.

Also, what show is Ashley talking about? I forgot.

----------


## Radar

> Also, what show is Ashley talking about? I forgot.


Movie review online show that Elliot and Susan produce together. The whole thing started here.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Movie review online show that Elliot and Susan produce together. The whole thing started here.


Oh, yes, that's a show, I forgot.

----------


## Maat Mons

Who wants to engage in wild speculation about who's moving, and where?  

I'm going to guess that Van, Tedd's half-brother, will be moving in with the Verreses (or however you pluralize Verres).  You see, logically, if you relocate to a new home on the other side of an ocean, you rent a U-Haul and drive there.  Everyone else we know lives in Moperville, so they'd just use a pickup truck and a pressgang of acquaintances.  So by process of elimination, a minor taking trans-Atlantic road trip is the only reasonable direction this plot could go.  

That and the comic outright says "a moving Van" will show up.  So Van will show up, and he'll be moving (in).

----------


## Celestia

100% it's the Uyruom secretary lady that Mr. Verres has a thing with moving into the Verres house.

----------


## Rater202

It's also possible that they *have* to move to another house for some reason?

I mean, the way the last paragraph is phrased it seems like whatever's happening is inevitable, a done deal.

If Mr. Verres was only considering moving, or moving someone into the home, then not talking about it before it was decided with the other people living in his home would be what is referred to as a "**** move."

----------


## Fyraltari

> 100% it's the Uyruom secretary lady that Mr. Verres has a thing with moving into the Verres house.


Would she really need a van? The Verres' home is already furnished.

My reading was definitely that the Verres (and Grace) are moving out.

----------


## Vinyadan

I read it in a very simple way: do you mean to wait until Ted has moved out?

EDIT: however, Fyraltari's version also makes a lot of sense.

----------


## InvisibleBison

My first thought was that the Verreses are moving, but on further reflection I'm not so sure. Mostly because of the use of the phrase "moving van" - they have just too much stuff to fit into a van.

----------


## Celestia

> My first thought was that the Verreses are moving, but on further reflection I'm not so sure. Mostly because of the use of the phrase "moving van" - they have just too much stuff to fit into a van.


Well that's just wrong. I've been a part of more than enough moves to safely say that you can absolutely fit an entire house into a U-Haul.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Well that's just wrong. I've been a part of more than enough moves to safely say that you can absolutely fit an entire house into a U-Haul.


U-Haul primarily rents trucks, though, not vans.

----------


## Celestia

> U-Haul primarily rents trucks, though, not vans.


I'm assuming "moving van" is being used generically and is not literally a van because actual moving vans aren't really a thing anymore.

----------


## Qwertystop

> I'm assuming "moving van" is being used generically and is not literally a van because actual moving vans aren't really a thing anymore.


They are; at least near me, U-Haul also rents vans. It's cheaper and easier to drive, if that's enough space for your move.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> I'm assuming "moving van" is being used generically and is not literally a van because actual moving vans aren't really a thing anymore.


And I've been assuming that it was meant literally, because I've never heard anyone use the term "moving van" to refer to a truck. Perhaps this is just a difference in dialect.

----------


## Gnoman

The two possibilities that come to mind are either that the moving van is to move all of Tedd's magic stuff to his new lab, or that Verres is moving out and leaving everybody else behind. It seems too out of character for more than that not to be mentioned, and Tedd _did_ notice that Verres was suddenly not having an issue with the gender situation - which could suggest a separation.

----------


## DavidSh

Definitely a dialect issue here.  In the US, a "moving van" can be a large tractor-semitrailer truck with capacity for moving a couple of houses worth of furniture and other goods cross-country.

----------


## Windscion

After some reflection, I think it could be Van by himself w/o Noriko. She may want her son the seer to meet other seers, to say nothing of his half sibling. And God only knows what she's feeling about Tedd now she knows he is a seer.
(Also the comment about the previous Sunday being apocalyptically bad timing due to having just learned of Noriko's disfigurement.)
Also also: What DavidSh said.

----------


## Rater202

The more I think about Van moving in, the more I like the idea... But I don't think it would be...

We know that the Will of MAgic told Van that Tedd was his half-sibling, but we don't know why, what the full conversation was, or if Van told Noriko when he woke up.

But if the infamous Monster hunter ran into some trouble and needs someone to watch her kid for a while for his safety, why not call up her well-connected powerful wizard ex-husband?

Which would, of course, ty into Tedd's own issues... We don't know exactly when Noriko left Edward and Tedd, but Van... Van looks to be just a bit younger than Tedd was when he met Elliot, which was during the point in time where Tedd was so withdrawn that Nanase thought he was mute, which Edward implied was a direct result of abandonment.

----------


## Adaon Nightwind

Just wanted to add +1 to Celestia´s Comment.

The whole conversation and setup says to me: "Relationship between Mr. Verres and Lavender progressed, she is moving into the house of Mr. Verres. She has enough stuff to need a van, not surprising for an adult. The house belongs to Mr.Verres alone, so he can decide such stuff without consulting his as-of-yet underage Son, whose Girlfriend moved accidentely in anyway, granted as a fugitive at first; plus, they will soon progress to college and can then move out if they wish to. The only awkward thing here is that Mr.Verres did not yet tell Ted and Grace about it, because it is a little awkward to tell your almost-adult kids stuff like this."

I really see no other outcome to this setup. Actually, i would take a bet on it.

----------


## Rater202

> his as-of-yet underage Son


Tedd is 18, and therefore a legal adult.

Like, in the New Years arc it was stated that Susan was the youngest of the group and she was turning 18 there which would confirm that the whole group was 18, and Tedd confirmed that he was 18 when Larry was hitting on him.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Just wanted to add +1 to Celestia´s Comment.
> 
> The whole conversation and setup says to me: "Relationship between Mr. Verres and Lavender progressed, she is moving into the house of Mr. Verres. She has enough stuff to need a van, not surprising for an adult. The house belongs to Mr.Verres alone, so he can decide such stuff without consulting his as-of-yet underage Son, whose Girlfriend moved accidentely in anyway, granted as a fugitive at first; plus, they will soon progress to college and can then move out if they wish to. The only awkward thing here is that Mr.Verres did not yet tell Ted and Grace about it, because it is a little awkward to tell your almost-adult kids stuff like this."
> 
> I really see no other outcome to this setup. Actually, i would take a bet on it.


I guess both Verres are fans of David Bowie.  :Small Amused:  

By the way, was it just a freak occurrence that Susan and Diane were born a day apart?

----------


## Radar

> By the way, was it just a freak occurrence that Susan and Diane were born a day apart?


Yup! Here are the details as described by Pandora.

----------


## Windscion

Upon further consideration, I feel that *Adaon Nightwind* is correct.

----------


## Kish

Elliot's eagerness to reach for the "villain form" does make it substantially more likely that he will assume it at some point.

I reserve the right to call him an idiot when he does. In fact I'm also going to do so right now, for the reason I outlined here. Like so:

*draws breath*

Elliot, you are an idiot.

----------


## Vinyadan

Compared to the grim approach of Edward and Elliot wanting to protect him with his life, I find Grace's happy outlook somewhat creepy.

----------


## Kish

While I am not at all certain this is what Dan is going for, it does occur to me that Grace, who isn't human, is thus the only one in the room whose reactions have no reason to be even a tiny bit informed by an instinctive "blatantly nonhuman=dangerous monster."

----------


## theNater

> Elliot's eagerness to reach for the "villain form" does make it substantially more likely that he will assume it at some point.
> 
> I reserve the right to call him an idiot when he does. In fact I'm also going to do so right now, for the reason I outlined here. Like so:
> 
> *draws breath*
> 
> Elliot, you are an idiot.


Can I just point out that "something happens" doesn't have to mean "we fight the griffins".  Off the top of my head, the meeting could be attacked by enemies of Mr. Verres or of the griffins.

----------


## Gnoman

> While I am not at all certain this is what Dan is going for, it does occur to me that Grace, who isn't human, is thus the only one in the room whose reactions have no reason to be even a tiny bit informed by an instinctive "blatantly nonhuman=dangerous monster."


I don't think that's the issue here. They're treating the griffins as dangerous because the griffins have already shown themselves to be _extremely_ powerful. Other than that, the reaction has been much more "well, they're good people, but...".

----------


## Maat Mons

I'm the exact opposite of Conan the O'Brien the Barbarian the Librarian, I have an easy time staying thin, and great difficulty putting on muscle.

----------


## Kish

> Can I just point out that "something happens" doesn't have to mean "we fight the griffins".  Off the top of my head, the meeting could be attacked by enemies of Mr. Verres or of the griffins.





> I don't think that's the issue here. They're treating the griffins as dangerous because the griffins have already shown themselves to be _extremely_ powerful. Other than that, the reaction has been much more "well, they're good people, but...".


Sure. Y'can point out whatever you like. And I'll wave at the recent comics and say I find your interpretation of them incomprehensible. All their preparations, Mr. Verres' freaking out and lecturing Grace and Tedd on how they shouldn't be acting like they're going to a friendly meeting and sharing information with allies, Elliot's proposing that he turn into a villain, have been 100% about fear of the griffins. "It's just, if there is trouble, griffins are really strong" etc. is hard to mistake for "if there is trouble the hypothetical aberrations who would be attacking us would be really strong."

----------


## theNater

> ...Mr. Verres' freaking out and lecturing Grace and Tedd on how they shouldn't be acting like they're going to a friendly meeting and sharing information with allies...have been 100% about fear of the griffins.


"Someone else entirely shows up instead of them", so no, it's not 100% about fear of the griffins.  For Mr. Verres, at least, it's about being prepared for the unexpected, and he doesn't think traumatized teenagers are the best fit for that.

----------


## Windscion

Another possibility is that Grace makes them freak out. My reasons for thinking this are twofold: Uryuoms not from outer space means Uryuom's come from their half (or other fraction) of the world. And Grace is completely positive about meeting griffins, so it stands to reason she's where the trouble will come from.

----------


## Maat Mons

Yeah, Grace pinging as Demon Queen in the same way Nanase pings as Princess seems a definite possibility.  Let's hope that's not what happens though, because Grace might cry.

----------


## Radar

> Another possibility is that Grace makes them freak out. My reasons for thinking this are twofold: Uryuoms not from outer space means Uryuom's come from their half (or other fraction) of the world. And Grace is completely positive about meeting griffins, so it stands to reason she's where the trouble will come from.


She is also part Lespuko and we know very little about them.

----------


## Windscion

Honestly, I tend to forget that. Because, as you say, we don't know much about them.

Edit: Amusing thought. The Griffins are okay with the Human/Uryuom/Lespuko bits, it's the squirrel part that freaks them out.

----------


## Rater202

We're told that Lepsukos are related to Uryuoms. IIRC the explicit comparison was humans to apes? So if Uryuom are not from space, neither are Lepsukos.

----------


## Windscion

Oh, I put Lespuko thru the Uryuomoco to english translator (finally).
Lespuko -> Rockape.

Which could mean something like troll? Tolkien type, not D&D types.

----------


## Maat Mons

And speaking of Wizards being able to copy spells from people, when magic goes public they're going to have to figure out how copyrighting spells works.  If a Seer invents a new spell, is it copyrighted to them?  If a non-Wizard spontaneously gains a spell, is it copyrighted to them, or is The Will of Magic considered to be the creator?  If someone hundreds of years ago had a Boob Growth spell, does that mean all Boob Growth magic is now in the public domain?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> And speaking of Wizards being able to copy spells from people, when magic goes public they're going to have to figure out how copyrighting spells works.  If a Seer invents a new spell, is it copyrighted to them?  If a non-Wizard spontaneously gains a spell, is it copyrighted to them, or is The Will of Magic considered to be the creator?  If someone hundreds of years ago had a Boob Growth spell, does that mean all Boob Growth magic is now in the public domain?


Spells would probably fall under the domain of patents, not copyrights. Not that that means there wouldn't be an enormous legal mess to sort out, of course, just that it would be a different mess than the one you're speculating about.

----------


## Fyraltari

> And speaking of Wizards being able to copy spells from people, when magic goes public they're going to have to figure out how copyrighting spells works.  If a Seer invents a new spell, is it copyrighted to them?  If a non-Wizard spontaneously gains a spell, is it copyrighted to them, or is The Will of Magic considered to be the creator?  If someone hundreds of years ago had a Boob Growth spell, does that mean all Boob Growth magic is now in the public domain?


No they don't. Spells aren't created by their users, they're given to them by magic.

Edit: The philosophical justification* for copyrights and patents is to incite creation by allowing greater profits for the creator. Spell creation would happen regardless.

*And it's highly debated whether that works or if it's even worth it.

----------


## Rater202

Yeah. Seers might be able to patent or copyright highly specific spells that they personally invented and thus have some control over how wands holding them are distributed, but otherwise, I don't _think_ you can claim that a natural phenomenon or the products thereof are your intellectual property.

There might be laws curtailing the ability of wizards to copy spells... But considering that that's an inherent aspect of being a wizard I don't know how exactly a _reasonable_ take on such a law would go. Especially if it's an automatic process rather than something you consciously turn on and off.

----------


## Maat Mons

Looking into it, the US no longer allows companies to patent people's DNA.  So I guess that same logic would apply to naturally-occurring spells.  

Then again, up until 2013, 20% of the human genome was considered to be the intellectual property of various companies, and it took 3 separate Supreme Court cases to decide that other people don't own your DNA, so some random Wizard patenting your innate spell and charging you for the privilege of using it is not legally far-fetched.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Looking into it, the US no longer allows companies to patent people's DNA.


They did WHAT!?

----------


## Lord Raziere

> They did WHAT!?


I'm american and I didn't know this either. I'm not surprised though.  :Small Annoyed:  corporations will try and copyright anything and everything. if they could, I'd wager they'd trademark the air in their buildings and charge you breathing in them.

----------


## Grim Portent

Legal precedent in the US, and many other places, used to be and sometimes still is that patients have no legal rights to tissue samples taken from them by their doctors, nor any rights to the products or profits of any research conducted using those tissue samples. Medical privacy regulations used to be much more lax as well.

For example, HeLa cells, the first line of immortal cells for lab use. Taken without her knowledge from a woman called Henrietta Lacks while she was being treated for cervical cancer in 1951 (she died a few months after being admitted to hospital.) The specialist at the hospital was given the samples which had been taken as a routine matter, as was normal at the time, and found that the cells didn't die out after a certain number of divisions. He then proceeded to send these cells to other hospitals and research clinics for the use in experiments.

Lacks, and her family, didn't even know this had been done for about two decades as I recall, and were deemed not to have any right to compensation for it. Meanwhile HeLa cells are still used in medical research all over the place.

DNA codes and so on are/were in a similar boat, the right to patent/copyright them belongs to the people or organisation that 'discovers' them, not the person from whom they actually came.

----------


## Fyraltari

> DNA codes and so on are/were in a similar boat, the right to patent/copyright them belongs to the people or organisation that 'discovers' them, not the person from whom they actually came.


I am now picturing patients being sued by pharmaceutical companies for copyright infringements by having children.

----------


## Rater202

Wrote multiple papers on that and on a similar case in college. I recommend reading _The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks_ for more detail.

The worst part? Neither the hospital nor the man who first experimeted with her cells patented HeLa. They didn't exactly handle things the most ethically(they took cells from Lacks' children under less than clear circumstances,) but they weren't trying to turn a profit here. They didn't make a dime off of it but then other researchers cultivated specific strains of Hela, patented them, and made a fortune.

The Lacks family had been considering suing on and off but the truth is the only people they _can_ sue over it just don't have the money to pay them. The people who made money on Henrietta's literal flesh and blood weren't involved in the questionable stuff.

...Allegedly, the doctor who took her cells told her about what they were doing and she expressed happiness that something good could come from her suffering which... I would hope to be true, but every first-hand witness to the incident is now deceased so... Not like we'll ever know for sure.

For what it's worth, when he himself came down with cancer he gave the surgeons strict instructions to take tissue samples from him to try and cultivate another immortal cell line. They did not follow through, but he money where his mouth is and tried to treat himself the same as any other patient.

----------


## JeenLeen

> Spells would probably fall under the domain of patents, not copyrights. Not that that means there wouldn't be an enormous legal mess to sort out, of course, just that it would be a different mess than the one you're speculating about.





> No they don't. Spells aren't created by their users, they're given to them by magic.
> 
> Edit: The philosophical justification* for copyrights and patents is to incite creation by allowing greater profits for the creator. Spell creation would happen regardless.
> 
> *And it's highly debated whether that works or if it's even worth it.





> Yeah. Seers might be able to patent or copyright highly specific spells that they personally invented and thus have some control over how wands holding them are distributed, but otherwise, I don't _think_ you can claim that a natural phenomenon or the products thereof are your intellectual property.
> 
> There might be laws curtailing the ability of wizards to copy spells... But considering that that's an inherent aspect of being a wizard I don't know how exactly a _reasonable_ take on such a law would go. Especially if it's an automatic process rather than something you consciously turn on and off.


The web serial Unsong (unsongbook.com) has the premise of corporations copywriting (or patenting, forget which) spells.  *Spoiler: very minor spoiler for first chapter*
Show

The opening chapter has someone getting a fine for casting a spell instead of buying an approved scroll from the company.


If magic became super-widespread, I could see something like that being tried.  Unclear how successful it'd be or not, especially since wand-crafting is rather limited.  But I'm sure (barring government intervention) some seer would try to make a company selling wands or equivalent devices.  We already know there's a black market for magical artifacts, so a legal alternative makes sense to form if magic were accepted/acknowledged.

----------


## Fyraltari

People don't usually need to say the spells' names out loud to cast them, right?

Therefore I deduce that Mr. Verres watches anime.

----------


## mucat

> People don't usually need to say the spells' names out loud to cast them, right?
> 
> Therefore I deduce that Mr. Verres watches anime.


Hey, you don't _have_ to yell _"Fire in the hole!"_ when you light the fuse on the dynamite, but it's a good idea.

He might be giving Eliot and Grace a tactical alert: "Barrier's up!"

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Hey, you don't _have_ to yell _"Fire in the hole!"_ when you light the fuse on the dynamite, but it's a good idea.
> 
> He might be giving Eliot and Grace a tactical alert: "Barrier's up!"


Yeah there is tactical reasons to yell stuff like that. there is a danger that someone in Dragon Ball Z might charge in if you don't yell kamehameha to make sure they stay clear of the planet-spanning beam of death, as well to make sure your allies are clear in various other settings because a lot of things are probably going to be destroyed. makes no sense when your doing a punch or a kick though. as for the problem letting enemies know well.....hopefully the blast is too fast to react to that it doesn't matter whether they know they're screwed, that kind of stuff is coming at you near-instantly.

----------


## tyckspoon

> Yeah there is tactical reasons to yell stuff like that. there is a danger that someone in Dragon Ball Z might charge in if you don't yell kamehameha to make sure they stay clear of the planet-spanning beam of death, as well to make sure your allies are clear in various other settings because a lot of things are probably going to be destroyed. makes no sense when your doing a punch or a kick though. as for the problem letting enemies know well.....hopefully the blast is too fast to react to that it doesn't matter whether they know they're screwed, that kind of stuff is coming at you near-instantly.


.. the Doylist explanation, of course, is that it simply makes the action a lot easier to parse for your readers/viewers. Having Edward call his spell informs us that he is the source of the cutoff line there and that he isn't, for example, being disintegrated by a glowy magic shockwave projecting ahead of the other figure in that panel. Which would otherwise be a completely sensible interpretation of that scene. (Well, excepting that EGS is not going to kill Tedd's father that way.)

----------


## Rater202

I'll note that Abraham says "modern knowledge. Modern garb" when casting the relevant spells and that Raven says "Murder shroud" when attacking Abraham with exploding crows conjured by a shroud of smoke about him.

Some spells might have a verbal component.

----------


## Gnoman

That's... that's an ominous glasses shot in the last panel.

----------


## Windscion

I am more concerned by the fact that we see an actual griffin profile. I was hoping this was something else, for the simple reason that almost anything else would be less dangerous than a furious griffin.

----------


## Taevyr

> I am more concerned by the fact that we see an actual griffin profile. I was hoping this was something else, for the simple reason that almost anything else would be less dangerous than a furious griffin.


I'm rather concerned by the fact that Grace, in her three-tail form, had to actively brace herself against the shockwave of something that wasn't even aimed at her. Also not a good sign in terms of danger.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> I'm rather concerned by the fact that Grace, in her three-tail form, had to actively brace herself against the shockwave of something that wasn't even aimed at her. Also not a good sign in terms of danger.


I found it interesting that she still maintained her footing when even Cheerleadra was knocked over, although that may be due to Elliot's current stats distribution...

----------


## Vinyadan

> I'll note that Abraham says "modern knowledge. Modern garb" when casting the relevant spells and that Raven says "Murder shroud" when attacking Abraham with exploding crows conjured by a shroud of smoke about him.
> 
> Some spells might have a verbal component.


Today's strip actually recalled me of that scene. Elliot looks like Abraham, with those clothes, and the creature looks like the birds from the the murder shroud.




> I am more concerned by the fact that we see an  actual griffin profile. I was hoping this was something else, for the  simple reason that almost anything else would be less dangerous than a  furious griffin.


I think it's due to something that was mentioned earlier in the thread.

*Spoiler*
Show

The lespuko. In particular, Grace used to have nightmares about a lespuko skull. She later made peace with that part of herself, but I wouldn't be surprised if her lespuko blood was the catalyst for the aggression. https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2004-08-28

----------


## Celestia

> I found it interesting that she still maintained her footing when even Cheerleadra was knocked over, although that may be due to Elliot's current stats distribution...


I mean, Cheerleadra doesn't have much footing to begin with while floating in the air.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> I mean, Cheerleadra doesn't have much footing to begin with while floating in the air.


Oh right, I forgot.

----------


## Fyraltari

> This probably won't result in any weirdness once Tedd and Grace are going to the same college with a lot of the same people.


I mean, I doubt we're going to remember this egs:np arc in 2034.

----------


## Maat Mons

Does anyone else think Mystery Griffin's face is reminiscent of Spider Vampire's face?  

The revelation that different griffins are based on different cat and bird combinations raises questions for me.  
Mystery Griffin = Lion + Owl
Dame Tara = Tiger + ???
Andrea = ??? + ???

What other types of griffin should there be?  The obvious remaining unused cat options are Leopard, Jaguar, Serval, Ocelot, Lynx, Bobcat, Cheetah, Calico, and Puma.  The obvious remaining unused bird options are Duck, Peacock, Ostrich, Flamingo, Penguin, Kiwi, Bird of Paradise, Puffin, and Kakapo.

----------


## Gez

> What other types of griffin should there be?  The obvious remaining unused cat options are Leopard, Jaguar, Serval, Ocelot, Lynx, Bobcat, Cheetah, Calico, and Puma.  The obvious remaining unused bird options are Duck, Peacock, Ostrich, Flamingo, Penguin, Kiwi, Bird of Paradise, Puffin, and Kakapo.


If you like weird griffon combos, you should read Skin Deep. The "reader questions" between each chapter are filled with requests to draw weird griffons. They ended going from cat/bird combos to more general mammal/bird combos.

----------


## Windscion

Hm. 
Uryuom/Lespuko heritage in the Owl/Lion griffin? (Hell, maybe that's where hybrid creatures of many types ultimately derive from.)
Nothing else springs to mind as a source of "familiar."
Edit: Okay, I lied. Damien also sprang to mind. But I see no connection between Damien and OwlLion!Jerk griffin.

----------


## Lizard Lord

> Hm. 
> Uryuom/Lespuko heritage in the Owl/Lion griffin? (Hell, maybe that's where hybrid creatures of many types ultimately derive from.)
> Nothing else springs to mind as a source of "familiar."
> Edit: Okay, I lied. Damien also sprang to mind. But I see no connection between Damien and OwlLion!Jerk griffin.


This griffin being a seyunolu (which is what Uryuom hybrids are called) seems to be the best bet so far. I like it better than this griffin somehow being someone we met before.

Also being able to hybridize with anything and with more than two parenets seemed to be a unique Uryuom trait, but since we known so little about Lespukos it could be that they could have a way to hybridize with other species as well.

----------


## Radar

> Hm. 
> Uryuom/Lespuko heritage in the Owl/Lion griffin? (Hell, maybe that's where hybrid creatures of many types ultimately derive from.)
> Nothing else springs to mind as a source of "familiar."
> Edit: Okay, I lied. Damien also sprang to mind. But I see no connection between Damien and OwlLion!Jerk griffin.


This would make sense not just because of Grace sensing something familiar.

There are a few questions to be answered:
1. Why did a different griffin show up for the meeting?
2. Why were they hostile?
3. Why have they some beef with royalty? The two griffins we know from earlier treated royalty with high respect after all.

If the new griffin has some Uryuom heritage, it could immediately answer questions 2 and 3 as there was and still is a secret faction of Uryuom that fought against humanity. Since magic "not changed", Uryuoms can use it again, which could lead to sudden changes in the power balance. This in turn could mean serious problems on the other side of Earth (the griffin side), if the magic system between the sides is connected. That in turn could explain why the griffins we know did not show up and some hostile griffin is roaming the area instead.

----------


## Fyraltari

> 3. Why have they some beef with royalty?


Maybe they're from griffin!France?

----------


## Windscion

> Since magic "not changed", Uryuoms can use it again, which could lead to sudden changes in the power balance. This in turn could mean serious problems on the other side of Earth (the griffin side), if the magic system between the sides is connected.


Now that is a scary thought! That could indeed lead to some very PO'd people/creatures.
Seems unfair, but since when is life fair?

----------


## Radar

> Now that is a scary thought! That could indeed lead to some very PO'd people/creatures.
> Seems unfair, but since when is life fair?


Or more precisely: some very PO'd people/creatures suddenly have the power to become proactive about their emotional state.

----------


## Windscion

> Or more precisely: some very PO'd people/creatures suddenly have the power to become proactive about their emotional state.


Actually, with a shift in power, conflicts and even war arise, making _everyone_1 angry. That is what I was thinking of.

[1: Except for the people who simply become sad, of course.]

----------


## Wildstag

New page is interesting, he's implementing the "hero/villain" theory from a while back. Also, with Charm being tied to "heroic personality" to some extent, I wonder if any villainous form has an alternate option, an antonymous aspect... or maybe that's just part of the "restraint" keyword.

----------


## Windscion

It took me a while, but I have figured out panel 4. The trenchcoat is being removed while the torso covering is changing (hence the weird shading) as he shifts from scout!Leadra to Elliot before assuming the form of OathOfVengeancePaladin!Leadra.
(It would not astonish me if, like Nanase's angel form, this form causes auto-burnout. Because he is pushing his limits. But that's pretty speculative right now.)

----------


## Rater202

I'm not gonna lie, part of me is expecting the villain form to take visual cues from Damien.

Damien's the closest thing there is to a supervillain, in-universe. Elliot has previously thought of Damien as his "worst enemy." And I distinctly recall what I think was a dream sequence where Elliot had a similar haircut to Damien.

----------


## Radar

Well, is this an appropriate theme?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I'm not gonna lie, part of me is expecting the villain form to take visual cues from Damien.
> 
> Damien's the closest thing there is to a supervillain, in-universe. Elliot has previously thought of Damien as his "worst enemy." And I distinctly recall what I think was a dream sequence where Elliot had a similar haircut to Damien.


If we don't get female Damien with a goatee and fishnet stockings I'll be disappointed.

----------


## Kish

Well, other people called that: we are actually seeing the villain form, and almost immediately after Elliott figured out what he could do.

(Elliott, you moron. Who, in this webcomic, has a better-than-50% chance of never actually regretting this, even so.)

----------


## Maat Mons

If you want kids to be the protagonists of a movie, you need some explanation for why adults don't handle everything.  "Adults don't listen" is a serviceable plot device.  I guess you could try "there are no adults around" or "kids keep secrets from adults," but those don't impart great life lessons either.

----------


## InvisibleBison

I'm a bit confused by today's NP. Is the joke that Susan doesn't realize she's not the target audience for kids' movies, or that this guy doesn't realize that Susan already understands the points he's making? I thought it was the former after reading the comic, but the commentary implies the latter.

----------


## Windscion

> I'm a bit confused by today's NP. Is the joke that Susan doesn't realize she's not the target audience for kids' movies, or that this guy doesn't realize that Susan already understands the points he's making? I thought it was the former after reading the comic, but the commentary implies the latter.


Here's a clue: Susan is probably the smartest person in the comic. And Rich is, if not dumb, at least resistant to learning.

----------


## Gez

> I'm a bit confused by today's NP. Is the joke that Susan doesn't realize she's not the target audience for kids' movies, or that this guy doesn't realize that Susan already understands the points he's making? I thought it was the former after reading the comic, but the commentary implies the latter.


The joke is that Susan complains about when the plot revolves around some characters (adults) not listening to what other characters  (kids) say, and here the plot of the joke revolves around one character (Rich) not listening to what another character (Susan) says.

----------


## Kish

> Here's a clue: Susan is probably the smartest person in the comic. And Rich is, if not dumb, at least resistant to learning.


I'm with Windscion here. What the precise intended implications of Rich continuing to tell Susan she's wrong are is debatable, but the one thing you can be certain of, is that no part of the intended takeaway is "Rich is right and Susan is wrong."

----------


## Windscion

"Granted, yelling would have happened anyway because of things that are happening."

I think this means that Elliot's lack-of-restraint `villain` form is more of a "burning up because of overload" form.

----------


## Taevyr

So, uh

is it more of an AAAAAAA?

or an AAAAHHHH?

'Cause I'm leaning towards "AAAAAAA", but I like to be certain

----------


## Maat Mons

Those links both go to the same video.  And neither has a timestamp.

----------


## Taevyr

> Those links both go to the same video.  And neither has a timestamp.


That definitely isn't how it's supposed to be. Should be fixed now.

----------


## Radar

> So, uh
> 
> is it more of an AAAAAAA?
> 
> or an AAAAHHHH?
> 
> 'Cause I'm leaning towards "AAAAAAA", but I like to be certain


Considering Eliot's anime martial arts training, I think it might be a classic DBZ scream.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Considering Eliot's anime martial arts training, I think it might be a classic DBZ scream.


Yeah, I'm guessing his evil form is in Majin Vegeta style.

----------


## tyckspoon

> Yeah, I'm guessing his evil form is in Majin Vegeta style.


Bet it's not even 'evil', necessarily, just a 'damn the consequences, take the safeties off and give me the strength I need to achieve what I need to do Right Now' thing (as commented before not all that different from Nanase's Guardian Form spell).. but Elliott has always associated 'losing control of himself' with 'evil', so it probably includes a bonus allotment of Charm that influences him to act with a villainous personality just because that's how Elliott thinks it should work.

----------


## Windscion

> .. but Elliott has always associated 'losing control of himself' with 'evil', so it probably includes a bonus allotment of Charm that influences him to act with a villainous personality just because that's how Elliott thinks it should work.


I hadn't considered that facet. Now I require to see Elliot monologing.

-=Update for 24 point Elliot=-
The _bully of bullies_ is in the building. Er, the woods.
Also, the 5 awareness is probably to let Elliot know how/where to hit the griffin.
The tech 2 seems wasted since he left his cell phone behind and he doesn't have cat-form claws.
Ooh, rereading Dan's commentary, maybe his burnout hair will be red (to mark his shame).

----------


## Celestia

Woah! We're actually seeing villain Cheerleadra in comic!? Man, if only someone had predicted this exact scenario happening!

----------


## Windscion

> Woah! We're actually seeing villain Cheerleadra in comic!? Man, if only someone had predicted this exact scenario happening!


A missed opportunity, to be sure. [/sarcasm]

----------


## Fyraltari

Oh my god! Elliot has turned evil! This is terrible news! Just imagine, he might step on someone's foot and not apologize! Or return library books two day late! Or consider littering!

The horror!

----------


## Anonymouswizard

No fishnets, disappointing, 4/10.

Also from what this arc has set up I expected an expression of manic glee.

----------


## Celestia

For real, though, those torn gloves and bruised knuckles are pretty dark for this comic.

----------


## Qwertystop

Still got tech 2, but dropped the phone.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> The tech 2 seems wasted since he left his cell phone behind and he doesn't have cat-form claws.





> Still got tech 2, but dropped the phone.


Perhaps in all the excitement, he hadn't realized it fell?

----------


## Taevyr

> No fishnets, disappointing, 4/10.
> 
> Also from what this arc has set up I expected an expression of manic glee.


As long as we don't go the full "evil supergirl" look. It always ends up either over sexualized, or plain ridiculous

Damn, forgot how distasteful the depictions of mid 2000's female heroes tended to be. At least for DC.

----------


## Celestia

> sexualized


That's literally just a recolor of the standard outfit, though?

----------


## Maat Mons

And that first link actually seems like an improvement, since she doesn't have a skirt that people can look up when she's flying overhead.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> And that first link actually seems like an improvement, since she doesn't have a skirt that people can look up when she's flying overhead.


Kind of irrelevant since we know that Cheerleadra canonically wears shorts under her skirt.

----------


## Maat Mons

I meant it's an improvement over Supergirl's most iconic outfit.  I assume Supergirl doesn't wear a skort, though I would if I were her.  Well, actually, if I were her, I'd wear pants, but you know what I mean.

----------


## Fyraltari

> And that first link actually seems like an improvement, since she doesn't have a skirt that people can look up when she's flying overhead.


I mean, unless there are under-skirt shots in the comic, I don't think that matters.

Sexualisation of characters is about how they're presented to the readership, not how they would look from a different angle.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Kind of irrelevant since we know that Cheerleadra canonically wears shorts under her skirt.


Reminds me of Madaline the Paladin https://rustyandco.com/comic/level-2-10/

----------


## Gez

> or plain ridiculous


I suppose the reason she's evil is because she can't cross her arms anymore?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> As long as we don't go the full "evil supergirl" look. It always ends up either over sexualized, or plain ridiculous
> 
> Damn, forgot how distasteful the depictions of mid 2000's female heroes tended to be. At least for DC.


To be fair, Cheerledra's outfit is already pretty sexualised. Not to a distasteful extreme, but enough that you could change the how while keeping it recognisable.

OTOH hand I think the character who's outfit I was thinking of might actually have been Black Canary, so I've just shown how little credibility I have here  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Windscion

Huh. So the griffin was manipulated. And we were supposed to guess because he [sarcasm] had big facehair like Dex [/sarcasm].
Also, I am impressed OathOfVengeance!Elliot was able to take down a griffin.

----------


## Kish

The current comic has me actually somewhat optimistic that there will be at least minor consequences for Elliott's choice.

----------


## Windscion

Well, Edward is bound to be furious at both of them for saving his life.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Huh. So the griffin was manipulated. And we were supposed to guess because he had big facehair like Dex.


I don't think we were supposed to guess.

----------


## Qwertystop

I don't think it's about the hair. He (?) wasn't talking smoothly, and the eyes were shaded oddly. I didn't guess it myself, but someone did and I can see how they might have.

----------


## Radar

> I don't think it's about the hair. He (?) wasn't talking smoothly, and the eyes were shaded oddly. I didn't guess it myself, but someone did and I can see how they might have.


With eyes it was not just about the shade: Dex was just starring blankly into the distance. Geranted, it is not easy to read an expression on a giffin's face, but eye movement or its lack is pretty distinct.

----------


## Gnoman

Pretty sure this is supposed to be Grace putting things together due to her enhanced senses and intuition, not a puzzle for the reader. The "it was possible to guess this, but I didn't expect people to" note kind of supports this.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

Wow, Elliot's first win since...

When did Elliot last win a fight? Most of the fights he's been in haven't been resolved by brute force, but I'm wracking my brain trying to come up with the last time he was in a fight and wasn't outmatched or outright losing, and I'm drawing a blank. Wait, did he win against one of Grace's siblings in the Damian arc?

----------


## awa

On one hand he did win but it doesn't look like the story is going to treat this as a win, I mean I might get proven wrong but generally unleashing your dark power is not a "win" for the hero doing it. In some stories learning not to be afraid of your own power is treated as character growth but I would be surprised if that was the rout they went with here.

----------


## theNater

> Wow, Elliot's first win since...


The Bloodgrem, near as I can tell.




> Wait, did he win against one of Grace's siblings in the Damian arc?


He squared off with Hedge, but no winner was declared before Damian exploded.

----------


## Fyraltari

Damn griffin, how dares he fake breathing, like that.

----------


## Windscion

Stupid zombie griffin pretending to breathe!

Also, I think we are seeing why this is a bad deal. It looks like the power is sustained in part by a personality overlay/emphasis which keeps you in an extreme mindset. It helps you ride the tiger, but you might not like where you end up.

Edit: Also, also? It would be ironic if _Elliot_ ended up being the person who causes a diplomatic incident with the griffins.

----------


## TaRix

*Spoiler: Aaaaand...*
Show

Cue burnt-out Eliot falling ... eight feet onto his backside.

----------


## Kish

"Please don't feel bad." Title for the next comic thread?

----------


## Maat Mons

I don't know about title, but the next thread should receive it's proper numeral of X.  X is too good a numeral to not apply when the chance comes up.  It's so good, we should call the thread _after_ the next one X-2.

----------


## Pax1138

Ah-ha!  I have finally finished reading through the entire 20 year archive of this.  Only took me most of 4 weeks.  Dang, now I'm in the slow lane with everyone else.  So this storyline is going to be finished in like 2024, right?

----------


## Radar

> Ah-ha!  I have finally finished reading through the entire 20 year archive of this.  Only took me most of 4 weeks.  Dang, now I'm in the slow lane with everyone else.  So this storyline is going to be finished in like 2024, right?


Hard to say, but you can binge-read for example Schlock Mercenary to pass the time.  :Small Wink: 

Or Freefall actually - less than 4000 pages so far, but the story, humor and SF hardness are great.

----------


## Pax1138

> Hard to say, but you can binge-read for example Schlock Mercenary to pass the time. 
> 
> Or Freefall actually - less than 4000 pages so far, but the story, humor and SF hardness are great.


Tried Schlock Mercenary once before and bounced off actually.  Freefall I did get through last year though.

On topic, having all of EGS temporarily collected in my brain, the thing I'm most surprised about is that the Lord Tedd thing hasn't been dealt with yet.  Or Ellen's friend from an alternate universe.  Also the art improvement is hilarious, along with watching the color come and go multiple times.

----------


## Celestia

> Tried Schlock Mercenary once before and bounced off actually.  Freefall I did get through last year though.
> 
> On topic, having all of EGS temporarily collected in my brain, the thing I'm most surprised about is that the Lord Tedd thing hasn't been dealt with yet.  Or Ellen's friend from an alternate universe.  Also the art improvement is hilarious, along with watching the color come and go multiple times.


Personally, I think that Lord Tedd stuff has been entirely abandoned and will never come up again.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Personally, I think that Lord Tedd stuff has been entirely abandoned and will never come up again.


Yeah at this point the only way anyone is getting a resolution on that is through some weird EGS alt reality roleplay where a bunch of people fight the tyrant Lord Tedd with the powers of transformation and such for freedom. very niche.

----------


## Qwertystop

> Personally, I think that Lord Tedd stuff has been entirely abandoned and will never come up again.


Nah, it got mentioned relatively recently. Ellen brought up Kaoli as "overdue for a visit" at the end of Sister 3; Kaoli is a copy of Nioi, who works for/with Lord Tedd. Dan confirms in the commentary that he's committing to "a Kaoli storyline". It'll come up.

----------


## Celestia

> Nah, it got mentioned relatively recently. Ellen brought up Kaoli as "overdue for a visit" at the end of Sister 3; Kaoli is a copy of Nioi, who works for/with Lord Tedd. Dan confirms in the commentary that he's committing to "a Kaoli storyline". It'll come up.


Maybe, maybe not. I'll believe it when I see it.

By the way... Sister 3 ended almost 4 years ago?  :Small Eek:

----------


## Kish

I don't think it's been abandoned. I do think Dan has had no real plans for him since scrapping the original "he's a brutal evil version of Tedd who wants to kill all his alternates" version, but he's been brought up multiple times since then, generally to emphasize how much more nuanced than that he is.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if this storyline is meant to set up Lord Tedd returning in a few years via elaborating more on how this multiverse works.but at the moment LT is mostly 'this is who Tedd will become without friends'.

I do think anything LT related won't happen until the cast starts uni.

----------


## Rater202

> Yeah at this point the only way anyone is getting a resolution on that is through some weird EGS alt reality roleplay where a bunch of people fight the tyrant Lord Tedd with the powers of transformation and such for freedom. very niche.


Don't look it me, I learned my lesson about that kind of thing.

Even if I wanted to, the only idea I have for a Roleplay other than what I'm already doing is a vague concept for a Nasuverse Roleplay staring a bunch of Adolescents who find out that they're Designer Babies or Homunculi who were used for Demi-Servant experiments and then given false memories and placed with host families and that the nature of their existence means that they're all going to die by the tie they're 18 and that combined with the fact that their lives were a lie convinces them to use their newly manifested servant powers to go on a rampage first against the people who created them and then the culture that birthed those people in a really ****ed up take on a magical girl concept.On topic: Yeah, Dan ems to have made it clear that Lord Tedd is still a thing but that he regrets introduinccing Lord Tedd so early on.

Personally, I like the idea that there's more than one Lord Tedd, a more or less benevolent one that Nioi works for and an outright evil one who Alpha Tedd earned Grace about and who sent the demon core that possessed the good and tried to kill our Tedd.

----------


## Radar

> Don't look it me, I learned my lesson about that kind of thing.
> 
> Even if I wanted to, the only idea I have for a Roleplay other than what I'm already doing is a vague concept for a Nasuverse Roleplay staring a bunch of Adolescents who find out that they're Designer Babies or Homunculi who were used for Demi-Servant experiments and then given false memories and placed with host families and that the nature of their existence means that they're all going to die by the tie they're 18 and that combined with the fact that their lives were a lie convinces them to use their newly manifested servant powers to go on a rampage first against the people who created them and then the culture that birthed those people in a really ****ed up take on a magical girl concept.


I have to say, I like the way you roll. I wish I had time to set up some RPG campaign and do something about my world idea that is sitting in my head for many years already. Sigh...




> Personally, I like the idea that there's more than one Lord Tedd, a more or less benevolent one that Nioi works for and an outright evil one who Alpha Tedd earned Grace about and who sent the demon core that possessed the good and tried to kill our Tedd.


If El Goonish Shive runs with any standard concept of the multiverse, there are technically infinitely many Lord Tedd's - simple not interacting with that particular instance of the main universe. Not sure if it is a sane path to walk, so maybe things are somewhat different.

----------


## Windscion

Okay, I've isolated my dissatisfaction with this page. It's not just that the Lion-Owl is all buddy buddy, it's that there is no "Oh hey, sorry I tried to kill you." It's kinda like in Skyrim when you beat someone in a brawl and now they are your bestest buddy ever? Only in a game I don't expect NPCs to apologize for being jackasses.
Edit: Tho maybe LionOwl thinks an apology would be an admission that OathOfVengeance!Leadra was stronger than him. Which she maybe wasn't, he was just hobbled by the mind control.

----------


## Fyraltari

Will probably happen next page.
Right now, establishing that they're no longer a threat is probably the highest priority.

----------


## Windscion

I guess I feel that an apology is a really good way to say let's not fight.

Random thought: "Read or the Owl Will Eat You". The Lion-Owl looks perfectly capable of eating you.

----------


## Vinyadan

> On topic, having all of EGS temporarily collected in my brain, the thing I'm most surprised about is that the Lord Tedd thing hasn't been dealt with yet.  Or Ellen's friend from an alternate universe.


That's a feeling I also share. After Damien's death and the birthday party, which worked as a pause to develop character dynamics, there was a fairly clear setup for going on with the story with Lord Tedd and Nioi and other alternates. Instead the comic decided to spend some time on trials at school and to tackle something completely new with the Immortals, and imho spent years giving its 8 main characters preciously little to do plot-wise.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> I guess I feel that an apology is a really good way to say let's not fight.


Why would he apologize for some evil jerk mind controlling him? he doesn't like that jerk either. it wasn't his actions that caused this. like we're talking about magic that literally takes away all the choice you in the matter here.

----------


## Windscion

Okay, this is forcing me to rethink Edward's actions.
So I guess he has a _practiced_ spell to roll with the punches, but casting that (i) takes him out of the fight and (ii) leaves his life in the hands of Elliot and Grace.
My first thought was that Edward knew and was counting on the fact that Elliot and Grace would fight, regardless of his orders. But really, he probably was at least hoping they'd flee.
At the other extreme, playing possum could be a negotiating ploy, albiet a risky one, to appear harmless? But I do not believe that, with two kids nearby who might be mauled trying to defend him.
All of which makes me think this is a contingency spell.

----------


## Fyraltari

I think the spell normally wouldn't render him unconscious, but it did because of either the not-change, the attack being stronger than Edward anticipated or both.

Also, I'm starting to suspect that in the griffin world "wizard == royal".

----------


## Vinyadan

> Also, I'm starting to suspect that in the griffin world "wizard == royal".


It's possible, although we don't know yet whether Nanase is a wizard.

----------


## Celestia

> It's possible, although we don't know yet whether Nanase is a wizard.


Nanase is definitely not a wizard due to her acquiring and casting spells in the normal fashion.

----------


## Radar

> Okay, this is forcing me to rethink Edward's actions.
> So I guess he has a _practiced_ spell to roll with the punches, but casting that (i) takes him out of the fight and (ii) leaves his life in the hands of Elliot and Grace.
> My first thought was that Edward knew and was counting on the fact that Elliot and Grace would fight, regardless of his orders. But really, he probably was at least hoping they'd flee.
> At the other extreme, playing possum could be a negotiating ploy, albiet a risky one, to appear harmless? But I do not believe that, with two kids nearby who might be mauled trying to defend him.
> All of which makes me think this is a contingency spell.


I think that simply the attack was stronger than the barrier could take, so Edward was still hit with some of the force behind the charge. I doubt anyone would intentionally want a protection spell that blows up in your face and injures you.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Nanase is definitely not a wizard due to her acquiring and casting spells in the normal fashion.


Wait, was it ever stated that wizards can't receive spells in the normal fashion? I thought wizards could copy other people's spells _in addition_ to getting their own and that it was only seers who don't get spells naturally.

----------


## Celestia

> Wait, was it ever stated that wizards can't receive spells in the normal fashion? I thought wizards could copy other people's spells _in addition_ to getting their own and that it was only seers who don't get spells naturally.


Maybe, I don't remember. Either way, given how long she's been casting spells and who she's related to, if she were a wizard, people would know about it.

----------


## Silly Name

> Also, I'm starting to suspect that in the griffin world "wizard == royal".


I believe it's more likely that "Seer bloodline == Royalty". We know that being a Seers is essentially a genetic trait, and so far the two confirmed "Griffin-World Royals" are both related to Tedd. We also know that both Edward and Noriko are extremely powerful wizards (and Noriko's other child is also a Seer), and if I were to guess, they both descend from Seer bloodlines.

----------


## Rater202

> Nanase is definitely not a wizard due to her acquiring and casting spells in the normal fashion.


I'll try to find the page, but it was stated that Wizards "may or may not" get spells in the normal fashion, so at least some do.

we know that Nanase isn't a wizard because she'll have copied a spell by now if she was.

If I had to hazard a guess, if Royalty doesn't mean "magically powerful, ""Royalty" means "Ancient Blood."

Ancients, of course, being what the people ont he other side of the world call Immortals...

...that does leave the hole of why Diane was recognized as a potential vampire slayer and not Royalty, but Diane had yet to awaken any magical abilities by then...

Maybe its a _combination_ of power level and immortal blood?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> ...that does leave the hole of why Diane was recognized as a potential vampire slayer and not Royalty, but Diane had yet to awaken any magical abilities by then...
> 
> Maybe its a _combination_ of power level and immortal blood?


Darn, I need to go and find that comic now.

Okay, so Tara states that Nanase's aura radiates royalty. From this I see three possibilities:
Griffons can only sense royalty if your aura is sufficiently strong.Only certain Immortal/Ancient/Fairy bloodlines give the trait that Tara associates with royalty, and Pandora's doesn't.Tara is not as good at reading this stuff as she presents herself as.

My guess would be number 2, and royalty is based on a certain magical affinity.

----------


## Kish

I think it's probably as simple as "powerful magic=royalty."

The unicorn identified Rhoda as royalty, after all. Which does imply that Susan's magic isn't over the threshold, but she's less interested in studying or using her magic than a lot of characters, so she hasn't been exercising it nearly as much as Nanase or Rhoda.

----------


## Fyraltari

The odd thing is that Lionowl over there assumed they had very little chance of meeting royalty on "our" side of the world.

So unless they don't know how common magic/wizards are, maybe the people the griffins identify as royals _actually are_ descendant of a royal bloodline from the other side of the world. Like some prince lived on "our" side in exile for a while and had a child or two a long time ago?

----------


## Gnoman

I think it is just numbers. 

https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2018-02-02

I don't remember if it is explained what percentage of wizards are seers, but seers are supposed to be 1 in 7,000,000. If the griffin world runs on the same percentages, and has a fraction of the population Earth does, then "Wizard" is probably extremely rare, even if we assume that seers are 1 in 10 or even 1 in 100 wizards.

----------


## Windscion

Pretty sure it is never explained how many wizards there are. The only reason we have any clue about the numbers of seers is because the Will of Magic told us.
Space!Whale described Tedd as a far more dangerous rarity ... than spellcasters. Yeah, that means nothing.
Without the ability to cast spells directly, it seems likely that seers are far more likely than wizards to not know what they can do. Making them seem even rarer than they actually are.
Still, if Tedd can craft a wand to make wands that make wands ... "dangerous" is a good word to use.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Tedd's also, IIRC, implied to be unusual for a seer. I think their innate understanding of spells isn't part of the standard package, and I'm not sure on the enchantment cancelling being normal either.

Tedd's not only a seer, they're a seer born into two lines of incredibly powerful spellcasters. Who knows how many traits they've inherited from immortal ancestors. Plus the Will of Magic wanted to tell Van something about Tedd but not the other way around, which is still likely nowhere near paying off (unless we're due for a sudden visit from Noriko in a few arcs).

Yeah, Tedd is weird and I really want to see how a Griffon reacts to them. Also how one reacts to Arthur, to give us an example of a more standard seer.

As to the wand making, yeah. It's dangerous and we're very lucky that Tedd is mostly focused on temporary transformation. That could be bad if misused, but what if Tedd created a way to put _Sarah's_ spell in a wand? We've already got confirmation that yes, people with it can and do intrude on other people's privacy.

----------


## Kish

> The odd thing is that Lionowl over there assumed they had very little chance of meeting royalty on "our" side of the world.
> 
> So unless they don't know how common magic/wizards are, maybe the people the griffins identify as royals _actually are_ descendant of a royal bloodline from the other side of the world. Like some prince lived on "our" side in exile for a while and had a child or two a long time ago?


I suspect the answer is that the griffin knew, correctly, that there are very few royals on our side of the world, and didn't realize that "any powerful magic user" was going to trigger its "royalty" sense; it figured as long as it only saw people like Mr. Edward Verres, not Duchess Meghan of Sussex, it wouldn't be compelled to attack.

Like the other two griffons struggled with the idea that Nanase wasn't a princess--it's not that they think in terms of "we say royalty, they say magic power," it's that they think in terms of, "You're a princess...no, really, you aren't?"

I can't find the section where Pandora talked to the Egyptian not-a-god. Did he say all magic-users descended from immortals, or was it just wizards?

----------


## Aeson

> I can't find the section where Pandora talked to the Egyptian not-a-god. Did he say all magic-users descended from immortals, or was it just wizards?


Wizards, seers, those with magic affinities...

Strictly speaking, 'all magic-users' would include those with magic marks and, technically, anyone who can make use of a self-powered magic wand or other magical device, so there's room for 'magic-users' who aren't descended from an immortal. Of course, with immortals having interacted with humans for thousands or potentially tens of thousands of years, chances are that the overwhelming majority of the human population could reasonably be assumed to have some trace of immortal blood - when you're talking about hypothetical ancestors hundreds of generations or more removed, chances are pretty good that they're either related to approximately everybody or that they're related to absolutely nobody living.

----------


## Kish

> Wizards, seers, those with magic affinities...
> 
> Strictly speaking, 'all magic-users' would include those with magic marks


Which is those with magic affinities, just to point out.

So, yeah. The blood component of "royalty" on griffon-world is synonymous with descent from an ancient/immortal, whether any of the griffons we've met so far realize that or not. No need to theorize mortal princes.

----------


## Windscion

> Which is those with magic affinities, just to point out.


Affinities or a strong desire. And anyone can have desire.

----------


## Celestia

> Affinities or a strong desire. And anyone can have desire.


Or a punny name.

----------


## Windscion

> Or a punny name.


Ah yes, the Boaty McBoatface clause.

----------


## Maat Mons

So, if you were offered a magic mark, knew about name-based affinities, and had time to legally change your name before getting the mark, what name would you go with?  

Max Power?
Marry Sue?
Fabio Casanova?
Lucy Fehr?
Biggus Dickus?

----------


## Radar

> So, if you were offered a magic mark, knew about name-based affinities, and had time to legally change your name before getting the mark, what name would you go with?  
> 
> Max Power?
> Marry Sue?
> Fabio Casanova?
> Lucy Fehr?
> Biggus Dickus?


Lucky McFourleafclover

----------


## Rater202

> So, if you were offered a magic mark, knew about name-based affinities, and had time to legally change your name before getting the mark, what name would you go with?  
> 
> Max Power?
> Marry Sue?
> Fabio Casanova?
> Lucy Fehr?
> Biggus Dickus?


I do believe that there's a commentary or q&a explicitly stating that that wouldn't work.

Unless your new name has some deep personal meaning to it, but then the lines are blurred between a name-based affinity or just general personality-based spells.

----------


## Fyraltari

I just realized that name-related magic happens because magic can't really relate to humans, but it knows their names so it assumes that the humans knew something it doesn't when they named themself or their children something that has a particular meaning and Magic just rolls with it.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> So, if you were offered a magic mark, knew about name-based affinities, and had time to legally change your name before getting the mark, what name would you go with?  
> 
> Max Power?
> Marry Sue?
> Fabio Casanova?
> Lucy Fehr?
> Biggus Dickus?


Canis Repellis. I have my reasons.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Tedd's also, IIRC, implied to be unusual for a seer. I think their innate understanding of spells isn't part of the standard package, and I'm not sure on the enchantment cancelling being normal either.


I thought the "innate understanding of spells" was the whole point of seers. Their role is to understand what's up when magic changes and spread the word.

----------


## Rater202

> I thought the "innate understanding of spells" was the whole point of seers. Their role is to understand what's up when magic changes and spread the word.


Yeah, but Tedd's is better than average. Assuming that Arthur is average, that is.

It's been implied that Tedd is more than just a seer though. BothPandora and Arthur have pointed out that he's capable of much more than other Seers/Arthur himself, we still don't have an explanation of that glowing thing he does, and Pandora did say that Tedd will use spells after confirming that he can't use them currently and we still don't know what's up with that. (and it can't just be his mark or wands since he can do that now.)

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I thought the "innate understanding of spells" was the whole point of seers. Their role is to understand what's up when magic changes and spread the word.


I thought that was because the Will Of Magic downloaded the cheat sheet into everybody's brain after the change.

----------


## Lizard Lord

> Yeah, but Tedd's is better than average. Assuming that Arthur is average, that is.
> 
> It's been implied that Tedd is more than just a seer though. BothPandora and Arthur have pointed out that he's capable of much more than other Seers/Arthur himself, we still don't have an explanation of that glowing thing he does, and Pandora did say that Tedd will use spells after confirming that he can't use them currently and we still don't know what's up with that. (and it can't just be his mark or wands since he can do that now.)


He can make fully customized wands now, but I didn't think he could when Pandora said that.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> He can make fully customized wands now, but I didn't think he could when Pandora said that.


They kind of could? Like, the watches were pretty much funny shaped wands.

----------


## Lizard Lord

> They kind of could? Like, the watches were pretty much funny shaped wands.


I thought before he could just copy spells made by the tf gun and put those in watches/wands where now he can basically create new spells by cystomizing ones he has seen so heavily that they are unrecognizable and putting those in wands.

----------


## Rater202

> I thought before he could just copy spells made by the tf gun and put those in watches/wands where now he can basically create new spells by cystomizing ones he has seen so heavily that they are unrecognizable and putting those in wands.


No. Tedd has been putting customized spells into the watches all along.

He even invented a ne way of fine-tuning spells, which he did *before* Pandora told him he was a seer.

----------


## Vinyadan

To be honest, I don't think there's anything unique about Tedd's innate abilities: he is a seer and has access to Uryom science (plus a general interest in technology), which led him to configure interfaces and to a very in-depth understanding of how things can be used.

The strong light he emitted to Mr Supersight could have been a seer thing (possibly a subset of extreme magic resistance, or, imho more likely, the visual representation of infinite magical energy) or Pandora being a jerk (Luke assumed that he just witnessed the aura of something invibile to normal eyes).

And he can cast spells because of his mark and magic items. In particular, his internal magical storage knows no bounds, so he doesn't need to worry about draining it, ambient magic, or the item's energy storage. This means that he can improve and cast any spell he sees or tweaks without any energy limit, as long as he has an item with the spell on it, which he can produce himself. I think Pandora meant that Tedd could make spells no one who isn't a seer could ever cast.

----------


## Rater202

> To be honest, I don't think there's anything unique about Tedd's innate abilities: he is a seer and has access to Uryom science (plus a general interest in technology), which led him to configure interfaces and to a very in-depth understanding of how things can be used.
> 
> The strong light he emitted to Mr Supersight could have been a seer thing (possibly a subset of extreme magic resistance, or, imho more likely, the visual representation of infinite magical energy) or Pandora being a jerk (Luke assumed that he just witnessed the aura of something invibile to normal eyes).
> 
> And he can cast spells because of his mark and magic items. In particular, his internal magical storage knows no bounds, so he doesn't need to worry about draining it, ambient magic, or the item's energy storage. This means that he can improve and cast any spell he sees or tweaks without any energy limit, as long as he has an item with the spell on it, which he can produce himself. I think Pandora meant that Tedd could make spells no one who isn't a seer could ever cast.


1: When we talk about glowing, we're not talking about his aura. We're talking about how he literally glows in the visible spectrum twice in the story, once in the Grace's Birthday Arc and once whn he realizes that grace is genuinely in love with him.

And the second time people commented on it.

2: Tedd had a magic mark, access to wands, and Uryuom tech when Pandora spoke to him. She very clearly said "you can't use spells" which means that wands and marks don't cont as spell use.

Which was established earlier on, in the card game arc, when Tedd said that using the magic mark must not count because its' not "his" spell.

But can't is present tense, and shortly afterward Pandora says that Tedd _will_ use spells. That's future tense. Either there's some way to turn Seers into spellcasters or there's something about Tedd that's more than just being a seer.

And right now, Tedd doesn't have anything he didn't already have. He's just better at it.

----------


## Vinyadan

Oh, _that_ glow? I read it as a way of the comic medium to convey  an emotion through a visual clue meant for the reader, but humourously  perceived by other comic characters, like Susan's magical hair wind.  Then again, after Hammerchlorians, it's completely possible that it will  be the starting point of a 15-year long arc (and the page where Tedd  glows during the tournament has commentary takes note of previous  occurrences, which makes it seem serious).

About Pandora, if we refer to the  same page, she says "And these abilities... they're perfect for you! And  even if magic changes, you'll still have them!", which implies that he  already has them. Then she says which abilities she means: "The ability  to see and undersand magic, to resist any spell, and shrug off any  enchantment... ...to take any spell you've witnessed and make it your  own, improve it, share it... and know that you, you will be able to cast  it, for you are a well of power! Where others tremble and suckle at  ambient energy, you have need for none... for you are mighty, with power  and mind to bend worlds to your will!"

So I think she's saying  that Tedd has the ability to edit spells while knowing that he will be  able to cast that spell, future tense because the casting comes after  the editing. In other words, imho "know" isn't an imperative, but part  of the group "to take, make, improve, share, know". The way the panels  are divided and the uneven use of the ellipses (...) makes it seem  otherwise (for example, within panel 5 we have ellipses both at the end  of a balloon and at the start of the following one, but but between  panel 6 and 7 the ellipsis is only at the end of the second balloon in  p.6 and not present at the beginning of the balloon at p. 7, in spite of  them clearly being part of the same sentence, and I think it's the same  thing that happened between the second balloon of panel 5 and the first  one in panel 6).

The fact that it's actually pretty hard to  decypher is one of the reasons this page fell somewhat flat for me, considering all that was transpiring.

She previously says that Tedd can use spells, but she also says that he cannot cast them on his own. "A seer is a type of wizard. You cannot cast spells on your own, but you can learn spells, and you can use them. You already have been." I think it means that he can cast spells, but not on his own; he needs an implement.

----------


## Rater202

Calling it: y the end of the week, barring a delay, we're going to find out that Uryuom's come from the other side of the world...

...And that they, or at least Chimeras, arne't particularly well liked by other denizens.

----------


## Windscion

What the hell is that? Some chicken griffin? And why is Liam looking so smug?

From EGS Twitter: "The motivations of Liam vary wildly depending on which remix of Kaepora Gaeboara's theme I'm listening to."

Well that's not very reassuring, is it?

----------


## Fyraltari

> What the hell is that? Some chicken griffin? And why is Liam looking so smug?


Looks more like a parrot to me.
The previous page had Liam worry which of the two guards was after him. This one must be the better option, as far as he's concerned.

----------


## Gez

> Looks more like a parrot to me.


Specifically a sulphur-crested cockatoo, I think.

As for the cat part, I'm thinking lynx.

----------


## Vinyadan

I'm being reminded of this page https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2010-09-08

----------


## Lizard Lord

Wait did Tara and Andrea know Liam was going first? The plan was to meet Nanase along with Elliot and they know that her magic registers her as royalty.

----------


## Pax1138

> Wait did Tara and Andrea know Liam was going first? The plan was to meet Nanase along with Elliot and they know that her magic registers her as royalty.


He said a few pages ago he came here because he knew they'd be here soon and could help him.  Probably Tara and Andrea got to the portal and the guards told them he'd gone through, which was unusual enough for all 3 of them to come investigate now.

----------


## Windscion

Oh goodie, anti-chimera prejudice.

----------


## Fyraltari

So, where does the hair end and the feather begin on a griffin?

----------


## Windscion

Well, Edward is not _royalty_, but he is a representative of the government. Fortunately, he's also a diplomat and can be expected to be satisfied with extracting some concessions.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Well, Edward is not _royalty_, but he is a representative of the government. Fortunately, he's also a diplomat and can be expected to be satisfied with extracting some concessions.


Well, as far as we know. He could be the youngest of six princes and seventh in line to the throne of Sweden without contradicting what we know about him.

I mean he isn't, and 'royalty' is related to magic in some way. But it's not technically impossible!

----------


## Windscion

One thing that's been bothering me all along is this: 

Edward *should* have known that Elliot would disobey his instructions. Did he, in fact, know? Or did he persuade himself somehow that Elliot would stand by and allow Tedd's life to be completely destroyed1 rather than fight? Or that Grace would not fight for Tedd's father and her surrogate father? I mean, what about their actions does not seem 100% predictable?
_(1) By completely destroyed, I mean Grace and Edward both being slain by a rogue griffin._

Hopefully Edward wil awaken and give us answers soon.

Also, interesting and slightly surprising that the griffins would find Elliot almost unrecognizable when 'hollow'. If you think Tara made it sound less extreme than that, consider that they fully expected Elliot to be present. Had he not been expected, they might have wondered who he was.

Edit: After some thought, I think Andrea's ears are twitching in panel one because she's looking at Grace and is interested in what she sees. As a scientist, hopefully she doesn't share Dwight's anti-chimera bias. (I say anti-chimera, but I suspect it is actually anti-Lespuko.)

----------


## Aeson

> One thing that's been bothering me all along is this: 
> 
> Edward *should* have known that Elliot would disobey his instructions. Did he, in fact, know? Or did he persuade himself somehow that Elliot would stand by and allow Tedd's life to be completely destroyed1 rather than fight? Or that Grace would not fight for Tedd's father and her surrogate father? I mean, what about their actions does not seem 100% predictable?
> _(1) By completely destroyed, I mean Grace and Edward both being slain by a rogue griffin._
> 
> Hopefully Edward wil awaken and give us answers soon.


I have to point out that Edward at least claimed to believe that he was fully capable of defending himself, and that he had arranged for backup to be available if called. Telling Grace and Elliot to get themselves to safety while he dealt with the threat and believing that they would do as instructed is not unreasonable given those assumptions.

Also, if you feel that losing his father would completely destroy Tedd's life, how about losing his best friend of the past 10+ years, or his girlfriend, or both his best friend of the past 10+ years and his girlfriend, or both of them and his father all at the same time?

----------


## Windscion

Wow, Andrea is _into_ Grace.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Wow, Andrea is _into_ Grace.


could just be twilight-sparkle like interest in Grace's magic situation. they seem very attuned to magic after all.

If not, parallel universe griffin crushing on an alien/squirrel/human hybrid is fine, but how old is Andrea? thats the real concern.

----------


## Rater202

> could just be twilight-sparkle like interest in Grace's magic situation. they seem very attuned to magic after all.
> 
> If not, parallel universe griffin crushing on an alien/squirrel/human hybrid is fine, but how old is Andrea? thats the real concern.


Grace is 18.

The concern is that Andrea is married.

----------


## Vinyadan

It also might be due to Grace's power. Remember Luke looking all awkward around her, to the point that Justin thought he liked her?

----------


## Vinyadan

Phantom arms, you say?

----------


## Wildstag

That confirms what was already expected though, right? Like, Elliot's strong, but compared to his peers, relatively straightforward and overblown, especially when factoring in people from other worlds. Moperville is kinda a hotspot for magic but even still their world seems low-power. 

He's like the Krillin of EGS: consistently strong, but limited by humanity.

----------


## Windscion

> Moperville is kinda a hotspot for magic but even still their world seems low-power.


I feel like power inflation is a crutch for mediocre writers. (Not that good writers can't do it and do it well.)

----------


## KillianHawkeye

It's still starting to feel like Elliot's role as the wanna-be super hero is just getting ruined by all these Immortals and Griffins and other things showing up and being way stronger than him, though.

Like, I get that being a super hero is his childish fantasy, but he's been getting reality checked for a long time now without having much chance to actually mature or evolve. Even the most recent "villain turn for a power boost" storyline, although it came with a bit of self-awareness, comes across as being limited by the framework and assumptions of the super hero fantasy. He needs to break free and start to grow up before he can take things seriously.

----------


## Vinyadan

His face might be due to surprise and awe to Lord TS's power, but it's probably also because it's a further reminder of the fact that he was about to kill someone who wasn't in control of himself.

----------


## Celestia

> That confirms what was already expected though, right? Like, Elliot's strong, but compared to his peers, relatively straightforward and overblown, especially when factoring in people from other worlds. Moperville is kinda a hotspot for magic but even still their world seems low-power. 
> 
> He's like the Krillin of EGS: consistently strong, but limited by humanity.


I'd say he's more like Yamcha: when he was first introduced, he was insanely strong for a very brief moment. Then he immediately lost relevancy and has since served only as the Worf of the story.

Krillin is more like the adorable sidekick who gets the occasional moment in the sun but has never actually been a legitimate threat. The most important thing he has ever done is get fridged to motivate Goku. And he did that twice.

----------


## Radar

One thing to remember: how long ago has Elliot awakened? How much does he train with magic if at all? All those beings stronger than him is actually a very reasonable take - especially since apparently magic is far more common on the griffin side.

Elliot's superhero spell was said to be exceptional, but it does not mean he is able to use it well. There is potential for growth, but he would have to actually focus on this and we have not seen any of that. Especially closer to the beginning of the whole comics, Elliot was just going with the stream avoiding making any decisions and aside of the anime martial arts dojo, without commitment to anything in particular. In his free time he just went along with whatever his friends were doing. At most, he made some comments about needing to learn how to fight while flying.

When Kevin was evaluating everyone in Tedd's basement, he said that Eliot has decent magic - not bad, but not superb either.

----------


## Rater202

> I'd say he's more like Yamcha: when he was first introduced, he was insanely strong for a very brief moment. Then he immediately lost relevancy and has since served only as the Worf of the story.
> 
> Krillin is more like the adorable sidekick who gets the occasional moment in the sun but has never actually been a legitimate threat. The most important thing he has ever done is get fridged to motivate Goku. And he did that twice.


I'd like to point out that Krillin was consistently on the same level as Goku up until the second tournament arc and was still able to contribute to a significant degree in every fight he participated in, even being able to defeat or do serious damage to people whose power dwarfed his own many times over, up until the Android Saga.

----------


## Fyraltari

> He's like the Krillin of EGS: consistently strong, but limited by humanity.


I don't think Elliot is exceptionnally strong in magic compared to other humans, though? Like Edward, Nanase, Abraham and Not-Tengu all read to me as more dangerous in a fight than he is, a'd I'm sure I could think of more.

----------


## tyckspoon

> I don't think Elliot is exceptionnally strong in magic compared to other humans, though? Like Edward, Nanase, Abraham and Not-Tengu all read to me as more dangerous in a fight than he is, a'd I'm sure I could think of more.


He's not, although he could be if he decided to seriously train for it; as is it appears he's mostly leaning on the Cheerleadra spell which provides a lot of natural advantages from what Elliott thinks superheroes should have. But he isn't seriously practicing to fight with his magic, and he's not practicing how to fight specifically as Cheerleadra. So he quite reasonably loses to people who -do- specifically practice their magic (as Nanase is shown doing somewhat regularly, as well as actually trying to read and understand the spellbooks to see how her spells work), and even moreso practice using it for combat. Like how Magus and apparently the griffins come from societies where 'Magic Warrior' is an actual recognized career path.

----------


## Lord Raziere

Honestly I don't think we can apply DBZ logic to this.

Elliot may not be the most powerful one, but Grace is a pacifist and if I recall correctly, its a been awhile, Nanase angel transformation has a significant downside of some sort. Edward doesn't strike me as a straight up fighter, but rather a tricksy contingency fighter combined with a diplomat/jedi consular. he's playing an entirely different game. indeed, magic outside of the combat ones we've seen have potentially diverse applications with Tedd being an example of his unique and incredible power not giving him much native combat potential at all despite his high potential to change the world, while Sarah so far has only spell that is only useful for examination purposes. Tyrant Slayers glowing feathers and burning talons probably offensive but song magic could literally mean anything.

EGS's magic system is far from linear. nor does the webcomic particularly claim or make effort to be within the action genre. hasn't for a long time anyways. compared to the other magic we've seen, the fact that he has a combat-capable form _at all_ is a point in his favor combat-wise. compared to say Luke, Tedd, Sarah, people that like that, he can actually hold himself in a fight for a while. which in this comic might be a more important detail than whether he can win one, as his goal isn't to be the best fighter there is but to protect the people around him. such DBZ logic is born out of a certain desire to be the best out of competitive fighting spirit, which isn't really relevant to this comic. this is not a Khornate universe.

----------


## Celestia

> I'd like to point out that Krillin was consistently on the same level as Goku up until the second tournament arc and was still able to contribute to a significant degree in every fight he participated in, even being able to defeat or do serious damage to people whose power dwarfed his own many times over, up until the Android Saga.


Krillin was introduced shortly before the second tournament arc and was immediately outclassed by Goku in the second tournament arc. He then spent the entire King Piccolo arc dead and was a bystander in the third tournament arc. He then did nothing in the Saiyan saga, barely contributed to the Namek saga, and was irrelevant by the Android saga. The period of the show where he was on par was so short lived as to be negligible.

----------


## Rater202

> Krillin was introduced shortly before the second tournament arc and was immediately outclassed by Goku in the second tournament arc. He then spent the entire King Piccolo arc dead and was a bystander in the third tournament arc. He then did nothing in the Saiyan saga, barely contributed to the Namek saga, and was irrelevant by the Android saga. The period of the show where he was on par was so short lived as to be negligible.


So... The only factually correct statement in this post is that he was dead for the King Piccolo Arc.

Krillin was introduced in the second arc of the manga, which consisted of Goku training with Master Roshi alongside Krilin, who started out as an antagonist rival but then became Goku's best friend, and in the Tournament Krillin did very well until he faced Jackie Chun, who was unbeknownst to Krillin Master Roshi in desu the disguised Master Roshi. In the anime at least, a scene in the Buu saga establishes that Krillin was slightly stronger than Goku when they first met.

He's mostlya non-factor in the Red Ribbon Army ar, but he does fight general blue and inflicts more damage to Blue than Goku ever does even though he loses that fight to to general Blues' psychic powers. H loses to Fangs the Vampire n Baba's tournment(which is considered part oft he Red Ribbon arc, not ti's own arc.)

then we get the second Tournament Arc... Which he progresses up until he has to fight Goku. He loses, but it's a very close match.

*then* he's dead for King Piccolo.

..Then he fought Piccolo Junior in the third tournament arc and did well enough that Piccolo, who was sill evil at the time, was impressed with his skill.

In the Saiyan Saga, he ws the only person other than Goku who was able to inflict any actual damage to Nappa, and it was Krillin, Gohan, and Yajirobi who defeated Vegeta...

No, seriously, people tend to forget this but Goku *never actually beats* Vegeta. He beats people who are stronger than Vegeta, but the first time he fights Vegeta Vegeta leaves him on the ground with every bone in his body broken and the second time Vegeta knocks him out with a sucker punch.

Vegeta lost in the Saiyan Saga because Yajirobi weakened him by cutting off his tail and then he, Krillin, and Gohan managed to collectively where Vegeta down until he was too tired and injured to keep fighting and had to retreat.

In the Namek Saga he and Gohan are basically doing all the work until the Ginyus arrives, he and Gohan saved Vegeta's life from Racoom, and Krillin is the first person who does any meaningful harm and the only person other than Goku who inflicts any harm at allother people can fight with Freiza evenly but none of them actually hurt him except for Goku.

It isn't until the Android Arc where Krillin becomes irrelevant and even then he's making a serious effort the entire arc and his actions effective eliminate the android as a threat tot he world and gains them as allies.

...No, seriously, you take Krillin out of the Android saga and 17 aren't friends of the Dragon Team. Which means no 17 as the MVP in the Tonrment of Power.

----------


## Maat Mons

If Elliot wants to get serious about developing himself as a magic warrior, he should really get instruction from someone who knows a thing or two about that.  Magus would be a good choice.  Magus never actually graduated from magic warrior high school, but he's probably got more magic warrior training than any other non-griffin character who's shown up in the comic.  And the griffins probably don't have the best grasp of how to utilize a humanoid body in combat.  And since Magus, unlike the griffins is a full-time resident of our world, and unemployed, it just makes sense for him to open a school.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> And since Magus, unlike the griffins is a full-time resident of our world, and unemployed, it just makes sense for him to open a school.


On the other hand, given that Magus is a wanted criminal, it's probably a bad idea for him to draw attention to himself.

----------


## Kish

Magus provably doesn't have the best grasp on how to utilize a humanoid body in combat, since he thinks if you're trying to fight without a penis your potential is wasted.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Tyrant Slayers glowing feathers and burning talons probably offensive but song magic could literally mean anything.


We have likely actually seen song magic used offensively:

https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2016-02-03

Which of course doesn't mean it's its only use. Here it seems to be similar to a DnD magic fang spell, increasing attack capabilities.

----------


## Pax1138

I just hope Elliot's recent "Go evil... for good!" turn doesn't combine with this magical inferiority complex to start looking around for more easy power and go "What if aberration?"

----------


## Vinyadan

> I just hope Elliot's recent "Go evil... for good!" turn doesn't combine with this magical inferiority complex to start looking around for more easy power and go "What if aberration?"


That would be a nice interaction with Noah. https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2011-05-30

Actually, I wish we saw more of Noah.

----------


## Windscion

> I just hope Elliot's recent "Go evil... for good!" turn doesn't combine with this magical inferiority complex to start looking around for more easy power and go "What if aberration?"


Because vampires have such a good track record against griffins? Also, his motives don't align with that approach at all. He doesn't care about power, per se. He just wants to protect.

Update: What could possibly be surprising Grace? An Uryuom? That's not a generic "I don't recognize this" face, that's an "I was not expecting this" face. Also the "rustle" sound effect suggests somebody small. Plus my opinion: Uryuoms not from space because from other half of world.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Update: What could possibly be surprising Grace? An Uryuom? That's not a generic "I don't recognize this" face, that's an "I was not expecting this" face. Also the "rustle" sound effect suggests somebody small. Plus my opinion: Uryuoms not from space because from other half of world.


My RL friend has been insisting for weeks that Tara=Eliot, Andrea=Tedd, and Liam=Edward. So I'm guessing that Grace is recognising an AU counterpart, possibly Ashley, Sarah, or Noriko.

----------


## Windscion

> My RL friend has been insisting for weeks that Tara=Eliot, Andrea=Tedd, and Liam=Edward. So I'm guessing that Grace is recognising an AU counterpart, possibly Ashley, Sarah, or Noriko.


Whereas I am thinking Lavender, which fits perfectly with Liam=Edward. (Has Grace met Lavender?)

----------


## Aeson

> (Has Grace met Lavender?)


I don't think so - not, at any rate, in any of the comics. Pretty sure Lavender's only been shown at Edward's office, and I don't think Grace has been there.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Whereas I am thinking Lavender, which fits perfectly with Liam=Edward. (Has Grace met Lavender?)


Not by my recollection, which is why I didn't include her. Wolf and Cranium are also possibilities, but again I can't remember if Grace has met them.

----------


## Windscion

> Wolf and Cranium are also possibilities, but again I can't remember if Grace has met them.


Yes at end of not-Tengu arc.
https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2013-08-22 to be exact.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Spoiler*
Show


Congrats on those who called the uruyoms being from Griffin-land!

Also, technology is bad apparently, but clothes don't count as technology because shut up.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> Congrats on those who called the uruyoms being from Griffin-land!
> 
> Also, technology is bad apparently, but clothes don't count as technology because shut up.


*Spoiler*
Show

Well do you want your lack of privates to be visible to all?

Although I suppose uruyoms could just morph some fur.

----------


## Windscion

Hot take:
Dwight is bad at his job. Seriously dude, Virginia is just retrieving material per (implied) instructions and you are threatening her despite the clear and obvious fact that *Spoiler: YOU'RE A FOOL*
Show

you are on the tech side of this particular dimensional split and she is not trying to smuggle forbidden technology into your half of the world. Jackass.


Also: Edward's magic is perhaps more non-lethal than expected. Granted, after nearly killing Abraham, we may have had wrong expectations about his suite of spells.

Also also: Virginia is adorable.

----------


## Gez

So the guy from a species with innate magic, sharp claws, thick fur, and functional wings doesn't like that we naked apes with thin skin and soft nails and slow running speed make tools?

He's being very ableist.

----------


## Maat Mons

Come on Dwight.  Don't be anti-machine.  Some day, the machines will rule us all.  And they'll remember what you said about them.

----------


## Rater202

...When remembering all the way back in th flashback of Tedd being given the TF Gun, Will said that it was legal for him to own the TF Gun but that he couldn't o it because his home planet had fallen under the control of a strict religious group?

If we assume that ther is no "Home planet" and the Uryuoms are just coming from the toher side of the world in a way that's confused for space travel, then... A general tech ban or a "Uryuoms arn'et allowed to have tech with specific exceptions" might be...

I don't know where I'm going with this but there's probably a connection.

----------


## Wildstag

> Also: Edward's magic is perhaps more non-lethal than expected. Granted, after nearly killing Abraham, we may have had wrong expectations about his suite of spells.


We've seen him be a diplomat on his own; he's almost certainly got an even mix of lethal and non-lethal.

----------


## Vinyadan

> ...When remembering all the way back in th flashback of Tedd being given the TF Gun, Will said that it was legal for him to own the TF Gun but that he couldn't o it because his home planet had fallen under the control of a strict religious group?
> 
> If we assume that ther is no "Home planet" and the Uryuoms are just coming from the toher side of the world in a way that's confused for space travel, then... A general tech ban or a "Uryuoms arn'et allowed to have tech with specific exceptions" might be...
> 
> I don't know where I'm going with this but there's probably a connection.


Sounds very much possible:

"There may be a reckoninger, a retconning someday regarding certain aspects of where I go with this."

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Also: Edward's magic is perhaps more non-lethal than expected. Granted, after nearly killing Abraham, we may have had wrong expectations about his suite of spells.


1) Edward has at least some access to official government wands, which likely includes both lethal and non-lethal options. There's less need for him to have personal offensive magic than, for example Eliot.

2) Edward is a wizard. Due to how EGS wizards work and his job he probably has the longest spellbook of the entire cast. He likely has multiple defensive options, including ones that fail safely for all sides.

Side note, I think we've got rough confirmation of Liam=Edward. Not that that says much about Edward's magic, the two have somewhat different jobs.

----------


## Gez

> Side note, I think we've got rough confirmation of Liam=Edward. Not that that says much about Edward's magic, the two have somewhat different jobs.


It would be kinda funny, even if not terribly original, if there was a technology/magic swap, with Liam and Dwight being part of a government agency dedicated to suppress knowledge about technology and control technology users; while magic is widely used and accepted as perfectly normal.

----------


## Maat Mons

Ah, I see.  So Dwight has a mistrust of Virginia that mirrors Agent Wolf's mistrust of Lavender.  And he's clearly going to be in a poorly-concealed relationship with that other griffin we haven't seen yet, who is going to be a parallel of Agent Cranium.

----------


## Fyraltari

You guys are really sure of that griffins = alternate human characters, huh?

Edit: How exactly could Virginia and Lavender be alternates if they're both Uruyoms and, ultimately from the same "side of the world"?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Edit: How exactly could Virginia and Lavender be alternates if they're both Uruyoms and, ultimately from the same "side of the world"?


Secret Griffon Magic.

How long have uruyoms been on Earth/this side? If it has been centuries to millennial, as implied by a flashback, I can fully see them 'integrating' on a multiversal level.

----------


## Wildstag

> You guys are really sure of that griffins = alternate human characters, huh?
> 
> Edit: How exactly could Virginia and Lavender be alternates if they're both Uruyoms and, ultimately from the same "side of the world"?


I'm fairly certain Dan's egged it on through the Twitter poll with the question "Virginia is..." and one of the responses being "Another Grace!".

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Well that sure seems potentially lethal.

----------


## Windscion

I was wondering if Edward was playing possum, but then I thought, "No, not with Elliot and Grace around."

I am however pleased to see that Dwight's idiocy is getting the same reaction from the other griffins as it is from the non-griffs. So much so, that I begin to suspect Dwight of being (aligned with) the source of the conflict.

Is Edward ready to make an accusation?

----------


## Fyraltari

> Well that sure seems potentially lethal.


Taking the weapon away from the overzealous soldier(?) seems pretty unlethal for me.

----------


## Gez

> You guys are really sure of that griffins = alternate human characters, huh?
> 
> Edit: How exactly could Virginia and Lavender be alternates if they're both Uruyoms and, ultimately from the same "side of the world"?


I think the current NP storyline is influencing people.

That said, if you replace humans with griffins, nothing says you have to replace uryuoms with non-uryuoms. The rule can be just to replace humans by griffins.

----------


## Vinyadan

...did his glasses get angry?

----------


## Fyraltari

> ...did his glasses get angry?


He's not wearing them at the moment.

----------


## JeenLeen

> He's not wearing them at the moment.


Have we ever seen him without them before?
I don't really believe this is the case, but what if they are a limiter of some sort (at least with magic's not-change).

I figured the lone panel with just the glasses was to make us wonder how badly hurt Edward was, but maybe it was to foreshadow something important about them being missing (like the dropping of Elliot's phone turned out to be important.)

Again, not something I seriously think, but if he's been wearing them even when it shows him wake up in the middle of the night...

----------


## Maat Mons

Well, all glasses, even nonmagical ones, give a penalty to Charisma, so if that's your casting stat...

----------


## Windscion

Not so. In Fallout 4 at least two types of eyewear gives charisma bonuses. (Okay, arguably it is the _frames_.)

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Well, all glasses, even nonmagical ones, give a penalty to Charisma, so if that's your casting stat...


Not really. characteristics that makes one charming are very subjective. sometimes people are charming because they're sexy, other times simply because they're cute, sometimes because they are goofy, sometimes they're cool. in japan, there is a character archetype in called "meganekko" for girls and "megane" for boys, that refers to them being attractive _because_ they wear glasses, and would in fact be considered less attractive without them.

meanwhile big round swirly nerd glasses like the ones Tedd used to wear that made them look more geeky? are very goofy. and goofiness can be endearing. 

also sunglasses or shades exist which are pretty much shorthand for cool ever since they were invented, as Johnny Bravo says "I can't be seen without my glasses!"

----------


## Rater202

> Have we ever seen him without them before?
> I don't really believe this is the case, but what if they are a limiter of some sort (at least with magic's not-change).
> 
> I figured the lone panel with just the glasses was to make us wonder how badly hurt Edward was, but maybe it was to foreshadow something important about them being missing (like the dropping of Elliot's phone turned out to be important.)
> 
> Again, not something I seriously think, but if he's been wearing them even when it shows him wake up in the middle of the night...


...Tedd did say that he wasn't sure that Edward actually needed glasses to see.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> ...Tedd did say that he wasn't sure that Edward actually needed glasses to see.


It's more the feasible that, like Tedd, he just has minor vision issues.

----------


## Maat Mons

Don't worry Ashley, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that your waifu should also be your friend.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Don't worry Ashley, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that your waifu should also be your friend.


Yeah that makes sense. a waifu that isn't your friend probably isn't someone you'd want any relationship with? like you can admire a character if they're a jerk or whatever, but the healthy thing to realize is that they're a jerk and probably wouldn't make exceptions in their jerkiness. like a relationship built on pineapple logic (prickly outside, sweet inside) where one endures the prickly parts to get to the sweet part of someone is probably not the best because there is potential that the ratio of prickly to sweet isn't worth it, assuming they have any sweet side at all.

----------


## Rater202

Seriously, this comic is gonna end in a massive polycule.

----------


## Gez

> Don't worry Ashley, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that your waifu should also be your friend.


Given the reference Dan was making, he could have gone with "Grace are friend, not _food for thought_"...

----------


## Celestia

> Given the reference Dan was making, he could have gone with "Grace are friend, not _food for thought_"...


That doesn't even make sense, and the excess wordage ruins the reference, anyways.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Don't worry Ashley, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that your waifu should also be your friend.


Hehe.

In all seriousness I get Ashley's concern. Even if this story isn't erotica it sounds like the next best thing, and not everybody would be okay for being the basis for a character in such a story.

Thankfully Grace is the kind of person to take a relatively mature outlook on the writing process.




> Seriously, this comic is gonna end in a massive polycule.


An incredibly messy one I suspect. Tedd/Grace/Sarah are almost certainly a triad in the making, with Sarah likely also dating Sam at the same time. I can see an Elliot/Ashley/Grace hinge, and also an Ashley/Elliot/Susan one. Justin and Luke are their own thing for now, but a mystery character will arrive in the university arc to link them in!

Susan is just in a romantic relationship with everybody she's not related to.

More seriously, I definitely see some kind of Tedd/Grace/Sarah/Sam polycule in the making, but whether it's a quad or not I'm honestly uncertain.

Also, I forget how long it's been since Elliot and Sarah broke up. I want to say about two months? So while I suspect that the Tedd/Grace/Sarah triad has been in the making for a while I don't see it becoming official for a few more months. I do have to say that I find that it feels much more natural than Elliot/Ashley if only because it seems to be moving slower.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Seriously, this comic is gonna end in a massive polycule.


Knowing this comic, by the time they graduate from college, in the 2070s, every youth in Moperville around their age* will be part of one huge polyamorous relationship.

*Except Rich.

----------


## Rater202

> Hehe.
> 
> In all seriousness I get Ashley's concern. Even if this story isn't erotica it sounds like the next best thing, and not everybody would be okay for being the basis for a character in such a story.
> 
> Thankfully Grace is the kind of person to take a relatively mature outlook on the writing process.
> 
> 
> 
> An incredibly messy one I suspect. Tedd/Grace/Sarah are almost certainly a triad in the making, with Sarah likely also dating Sam at the same time. I can see an Elliot/Ashley/Grace hinge, and also an Ashley/Elliot/Susan one. Justin and Luke are their own thing for now, but a mystery character will arrive in the university arc to link them in!
> ...


You're forgetting that Elliot is apparently at least a little bi(shirts verses skin with Noah helped him figure that out,) there was an NP arc that had heavy shiptease with Tedd and Cheerleadra Elliot that included the two of them simultaneously have a mental image of kissing the other, Grace has been trying to get the two of them to be comfortable with cuddling(and seems to be doing well with it) and has said that she can picture them kissing, and Tedd/Tess and Elliot/Ellen are a thing, or at least one crushing on the other, in every universe where they have compatible genders and sexualities that we've seen.

Don't be surprised if we see Tedd making out with Cheeleadra while Grace cuddles Ashley at some point in the future.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> You're forgetting that Elliot is apparently at least a little bi


Bah, that doesn't count as evidence! Everybody knows that EGS only has two sexualities: gay and unlabelled pansexual.

----------


## Windscion

> Knowing this comic, by the time they graduate from college, in the 2070s, every youth in Moperville around their age* will be part of one huge polyamorous relationship.
> 
> *Except Rich.


Now, now. Maybe there's an uryuom out there for him.

----------


## Adaon Nightwind

To post something before Monday changes the actual Comic:

If i could be 20 years younger, i'd like to grow up to be like Mr.Verres.

----------


## Gnoman

> Hehe.
>  So while I suspect that the Tedd/Grace/Sarah triad has been in the making for a while I don't see it becoming official for a few more months.


Last panel is strongly suggesting that there's more than "in the making" here. 
https://www.egscomics.com/egsnp/oc-08

----------


## Wildstag

> Last panel is strongly suggesting that there's more than "in the making" here. 
> https://www.egscomics.com/egsnp/oc-08


That panel has been taken into consideration in the past, but without any knowledge of Sarah's relationship status with Sam, we have respectfully considered the trio as "in the making". 

Or at least that was my take from the discussion a couple pages ago. They are all teenagers, so making dumb mistakes and not communicating such things isn't out of the realm of possibility.

----------


## Gez

> Last panel is strongly suggesting that there's more than "in the making" here. 
> https://www.egscomics.com/egsnp/oc-08


Grace is a very horny young lady who is attempting to get most of the regular cast into her polycule. I mean, just look at her.

----------


## Celestia

> Grace is a very horny young lady who is attempting to get most of the regular cast into her polycule. I mean, just look at her.


I am a very horny young lady who wants to see most of the cast get into a polycule.

----------


## Lizard Lord

> Last panel is strongly suggesting that there's more than "in the making" here. 
> https://www.egscomics.com/egsnp/oc-08


I thought that was a reference to the numerous transformation based wardrobe malfunctions that happen in Ted's lab.

----------


## Windscion

Well paint me purple and call me Barney. It really was simple anti-Uryuom sentiment all along.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Grace is a very horny young lady who is attempting to get most of the regular cast into her polycule. I mean, just look at her.


Good for her! And I do honestly see Sarah joining just, as I've already said, not officially yet.

Honestly if Dan came out and said that Sarah and Grace have had sex, or Tedd, Sarah, and Grace had done it, you'd get maybe a 'huh' from me. If the next arc is 'Sarah is now in a Triad with Tedd and Grace' I'll be even less shocked. But I don't think it's 'official' yet, if only because the question of Sam is up in the air.

But I'm sure Grace will let Sam into the group cuddles (and Tedd might even be willing to change his default form if asked).

----------


## Fyraltari

> (and Tedd might even be willing to change his default form if asked).


Frankly, I have considered this unavoidable ever since we've learned that Sam was AFAB. With plenty of angsting on whether they should reveal that magic exists to him, beforehand, of course.

Also, the current arc makes we wonder if (and how much) the _El Goonish Shive_ cast is based on people Dan knows/knew in highschool.

----------


## Wildstag

> Well paint me purple and call me Barney. It really was simple anti-Uryuom sentiment all along.


Well, of a sort. Presumably if they could recognize Uryuom, they probably also would recognize Grace as being Seyunolo what with her antennae out right now.

----------


## Rater202

> Well, of a sort. Presumably if they could recognize Uryuom, they probably also would recognize Grace as being Seyunolo what with her antennae out right now.


Considering that Dwight hesitated to call Grace a person? And Lord Tyrantslayer knowing immediately how Grace's TK worked.

----------


## Windscion

Woot! Lore dump. Nothing truly surprising, but confirmation is nice.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Do uruyoms aren't from the other side of the world either? I'm guessing that they aren't from anywhere, and independently evolved on most worlds.

They're also clearly from the future and travelled in a Time Ship.

----------


## Windscion

> So uruyoms aren't from the other side of the world either? I'm guessing that they aren't from anywhere, and independently evolved on most worlds.
> 
> They're also clearly from the future and travelled in a Time Ship.


How do you get that from "a colony ship crashed"?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> How do you get that from "a colony ship crashed"?


We've been told uruyoms don't come from space. We've been assuming they come from the other side of the world, but 'a colony ship crashed' suggests that's not true.

Although I suppose you can theoretically crash a sailing ship instead of a spaceship or tinmeship.

The rest was just letting my imagination run with it.

Uruyoms are future Time Lords, calling it now!

----------


## Vinyadan

If I recall correctly, time travel is the only power that we have been told won't appear in the comic.

----------


## Maat Mons

One possibility involves alternate dimensions.  We know that there are a bunch of different version of Our Side.  Some of them have dragons and things that aren't found in our dimensions version of Our Side.  Maybe Uruyoms come from an alternate version of the Other Side, but had to leave for reasons.  

Or, without any alternate dimension stuff, Uruyoms could have originated on Our Side, but all left for reasons.  This would mean that the few Uruyoms currently residing on Our Side have actually returned home, rather than left their home.  Or I guess they could be the remnants of a few who never left.  

Yet a third option is that there aren't two sides to the world, but actually three.  Uruyoms could then come from their own side, which they fled for reasons.  Maybe there's a whole Uruyom Side that the Uruyoms we know are refugees from, and nobody knows about it because the Uruyom Side keeps all the ways in or out magically sealed.

----------


## Pax1138

I think "Uruyoms didn't come from space" is compatible with both "They come from the other side" and "They got to the other side from other side outer space."  In the "our" Earth context, they didn't come from space, they came from the other side.  How they got to the other side might be a separate topic.  Like, Europeans in America came from Europe, but that wasn't really their origin either in the grand scheme of things.

----------


## Rater202

So... Back during the Untitled Party Arc I speculated that Tedd may have been the Internet Girlfriend that Ashley mentioned back during thedAte at the Mall arc.

The one she broke up with when they realized that they were never going to meet in public?

----------


## Wildstag

Y'know, this lore-dump does help explain Gillian/William's whole "technical problem", what with their statement about the following, but it does complicate things as well, given the timelines implied... 




> all devices legally sold on our parent-planet are limited due to the limits of sanctioned programming languages





> My parents made this device before certain laws were passed. As a result, it's legal for me to own it, but I couldn't sell it on the parent planet.


On the other hand though, the whole "religious exclusion" part does complicate things. Unless it's going to be revealed that the invasion narrative is strongly pushed by a certain religious history on their Earth but not all religions. 

I think I'll chalk it up to "mentioning certain things too early" and also "stuff getting edited in drafts, but generally preferring against hard retcons".

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I haven't thought about that for ages.

If the comic doesn't end with William running for president (and losing by a landslide) I'll be disappointed.

----------


## Kish

> If the comic doesn't end with William running for president (and losing by a landslide) I'll be disappointed.


??????????

----------


## Fyraltari

> ??????????


Can't finfd the strip, but the first time we saw the uruyoms, William explained that, as a US-born citizen, he's legally eligible to run for the presidency. Which he'd loose by a landslide in his own admission.

----------


## Kish

Ah, thanks.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I want to give Ashley advice.

Specifically stop worrying about this stuff while writing the first draft!

----------


## Lord Raziere

> I want to give Ashley advice.
> 
> Specifically stop worrying about this stuff while writing the first draft!


I need to start following that advice myself. X_X can't even finish a first draft on anything I write....

----------


## Windscion

So the reason Dwight seemed to be overreacting was, he is young. Now things are much less sinister.
More importantly for the long term, has Elliot found a new calling?

----------


## Rater202

Elliot: "I am no longer baby, I want (diplomatic) Power."

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I need to start following that advice myself. X_X can't even finish a first draft on anything I write....


Editing is the bane of completion.

----------


## Gez

Liam with sunglasses look like an old hippie.

I knew a guy like this. Giant of a man, long hair, impossibly bushy beard, when he wore sunglasses nothing of his face was visible. And this panel of Liam with sunglasses suddenly reminded me of him.

----------


## Taevyr

> Editing is the bane of completion.


Yup, the only thing required of a first draft is that whatever campaign idea/story/hypothesis you have gets broadly stream-of-consciousnessed on a piece of paper in a semi-followable way. Works whether you're writing an academic work, fiction or whatever. It gets you across that first hurdle of having that empty page just sitting there. Taunting you. 

In my experience, it also helps you enjoy the writing more during the first draft, as you don't feel pressure to do it too well and can just write away, and you get to feel accomplished as you edit it into something better and better. _Getting_ to the point where you don't need to do it perfect first try though? Pure hell.


As for the actual comic: I never knew how much I wanted to see a griffin with sunglasses. All that's left is for Liam & Edward to put on suits and start a Blues Brothers tribute group.

----------


## Windscion

I love Virginia's expression. I don't think she's 100% buying this.

----------


## Radar

> I love Virginia's expression. I don't think she's 100% buying this.


I do not blame her - it is pretty weird. I guess Jerry felt the same during that exposition.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

We now need a NP arc about the griffon characters playing Carcassonne ASAP.

----------


## Maat Mons

Given that the last story arc to feature a board game was Goonmanji, I imagine Griffin-Land Carcassonne would create real settlements that persist after the game is finished.

----------


## Radar

> Given that the last story arc to feature a board game was Goonmanji, I imagine Griffin-Land Carcassonne would create real settlements that persist after the game is finished.


For the sake of Griffin-Land I hope not as every decent-sized city built in Carcassonne is a twisted maze that would be a nightmare to live in and travelling between them would be no better.

----------


## Windscion

Well, since Edward Verres messed up a spell, and Liam swore that Elliot's actions were exactly correct, it looks like Elliot is off the hook.
Well, should be off the hook. Not sure Edward will let it go that easily.

----------


## Calemyr

> Well, since Edward Verres messed up a spell, and Liam swore that Elliot's actions were exactly correct, it looks like Elliot is off the hook.
> Well, should be off the hook. Not sure Edward will let it go that easily.


If there were a poster boy for "reasonable authority figure", he would have square glasses and a moustache. 

I expect Edward to be _exactly_ as tough as he feels he needs to be for Elliot's sake. At the moment, I don't know if that's gonna be a scolding or a cool down hug once Elliot runs out of things to distract him from almost killing a crippled, mind controlled hero.

On the flip side, I wouldn't be that surprised if this wasn't a good excuse if Edward decides to tap Elliot for the diplomatic corps. Kid's young, but he's got a good heart, a lot of brawn, and enough brains when he can be cajoled to actually use them. He'd make a pretty solid "paranormal policeman". And it'd make a good parallel to Arthur recruiting Tedd.

----------


## Vinyadan

> If there were a poster boy for "reasonable authority figure", he would have square glasses and a moustache. 
> 
> I expect Edward to be _exactly_ as tough as he feels he needs to be for Elliot's sake. At the moment, I don't know if that's gonna be a scolding or a cool down hug once Elliot runs out of things to distract him from almost killing a crippled, mind controlled hero.
> 
> On the flip side, I wouldn't be that surprised if this wasn't a good excuse if Edward decides to tap Elliot for the diplomatic corps. Kid's young, but he's got a good heart, a lot of brawn, and enough brains when he can be cajoled to actually use them. He'd make a pretty solid "paranormal policeman". And it'd make a good parallel to Arthur recruiting Tedd.


Edward sucker-zapped Abraham, while he was already surrounded by his people, to make sure his niece was well. I think he understands Elliot's situation quite well... except for the deliberate, total loss of control. Edward kept enough self-control not to murder an unconscious man, but Elliot didn't. And that's what I believe a lesson would likely be about.

----------


## Rater202

So... That's a thing.

I didn't see that coming like, at all.

----------


## Maat Mons

I had been wondering why Owl-Griffin seemed happy to see that Dwight was the one to show up.  The fact that he immediately leapt into insulting one of the ambassadors made me wonder how bad the other guard would have to be for Dwight to be the good option.

----------


## Windscion

My immediate thot was "this guy is a fool, I can easily manipulate him." I wasn't _totally_ wrong about that...

(Edit: I was wrong about everything else, but not that.)

----------


## Kish

Ah, Dan. When I was reading the bottom panel, I found the revelation cleverly and subtly done.

Of course, then you had to spell out what was going on in the commentary.

----------


## Windscion

In before Andrea notes that, ironically, the high state of the art of magic made it impossible to suppress knowledge of technology, which is why they made it illegal instead.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> In before Andrea notes that, ironically, the high state of the art of magic made it impossible to suppress knowledge of technology, which is why they made it illegal instead.


That's because technology always wants to be used!

----------


## Celestia

> In before Andrea notes that, ironically, the high state of the art of magic made it impossible to suppress knowledge of technology, which is why they made it illegal instead.


It was just explained that technology is only illegal for Uryoums.

----------


## Windscion

Technically, Liam only said that they are not permitted to use technology to compensate for their lack of magic. Possibly other races are permitted to use tech, possibly not. For example, it is much easier to say 'Uryuoms cannot use guns' if there isn't a gunshop on every corner. 

On the other hand, one assumes a race capable of space travel had a high level of technology, so probably by "technology" they mean anything well past whatever other races have access to. Not that we can expect any elaboration, since we aren't likely to visit the "other side".

----------


## Rater202

I took the situation to mean that only Uryuom technology was banned.

"The dangers of _uryuom_ technology" "we didn't ban _their_ technology."

He didn't recognize a smartphone but based on what little we know about the situation there was probably no reason to invent them.

Also, for what it's worth: Virginia's clothes look like just regular upper-class modern clothes to me, so... I don't think this is a medieval stasis situation.

----------


## Celestia

> Technically, Liam only said that they are not permitted to use technology to compensate for their lack of magic. Possibly other races are permitted to use tech, possibly not. For example, it is much easier to say 'Uryuoms cannot use guns' if there isn't a gunshop on every corner. 
> 
> On the other hand, one assumes a race capable of space travel had a high level of technology, so probably by "technology" they mean anything well past whatever other races have access to. Not that we can expect any elaboration, since we aren't likely to visit the "other side".


If technology is banned for everyone, it would have made no sense for him to specify that technology is banned for uryoums. People don't speak in legalese; he said what he meant. His statement implicitly declares that technology is only banned for uryoums.

----------


## Kish

Perhaps "one" would assume uryoums are only barred from specific technologies which other people also are not allowed, but whoever this one is, I would suggest they look at the comic again. The whole exchange between Dwight and Liam, from Dwight screaming "Is that technology?" (note, not "is that super-advanced technology?") makes no sense if uryoums are not second-class citizens on the other side. And it is the easiest thing in the world to say, "The gunshop on every corner doesn't serve your kind." We cannot expect elaboration because Dan, as hard as he tries, cannot actually anticipate everything that some readers will declare ambiguous.

----------


## Lizard Lord

It could also be interpreted as a ban on uryuom made technology, regardless of who uses it. The uryuoms just generally had been making more advanced technology before and had previously used it to make up for their lack of magic. This would still be a ban on "their" technology.  Plus it is my understanding that the law was passed under the excuse that Uryuom tech is dangerous, it would make sense that no one would be allowed to use it.
.

As for the cell phone: it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that Dwight assumed it was uryuom tech since had never seen anything like it before, an uryuom had it, Dwight doesn't seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed, and his gut instincts seem to tell him to assume the worse of Virginia.

----------


## Windscion

> And it is the easiest thing in the world to say, "The gunshop on every corner doesn't serve your kind."


Easy availability means everyone can use it, legally or illegally. Extra penalties for using illicit tech won't stop it from being used. Also, I guarantee some humans are sympathetic to the uryuoms.




> It could also be interpreted as a ban on uryuom made technology, regardless of who uses it.


Actually, that makes perfect sense. After all, if they cannot use tech but they can sell it, that would be pretty strange, yes? (Nevermind the bootstrapping issue where you need to use tech to make higher tech.)




> If technology is banned for everyone, it would have made no sense for him to specify that technology is banned for uryoums. People don't speak in legalese; he said what he meant. His statement implicitly declares that technology is only banned for uryoums.


I think that uryuom tech is probably way above Other Side human tech, so the distinction doesn't arise as only uryuoms can make their tech. Yes, the transformation gun used COTS* parts as far as we know. But that's in a modern electronic age first-world country. Since no one recognizes a cell phone, I assume they are at a pre-renaissance level.

*Commodity-Off-The-Shelf, meaning stuff you can just go out and buy. Unlike controlled stuff, such as pseudoephedrine. Since Edward Verres was doing the shopping, we cannot be 100% certain that this is the case, but if it wasn't I'd have expected it to be mentioned.

----------


## Vinyadan

Given that magic is apparently due to good genetics, should we assume that Elliot's parents are mages? They have a magical son and they have shown themselves oddly unfazed by all that's been going on, plus they somehow were surprisingly organised when it came to organise a search party.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

It's been pretty heavily indicated that there is _something_ going on with those two. They coordinated a missing person search like professionals, and Elliot and Ellen don't actually know what their dad does as a job.

----------


## Rater202

> Given that magic is apparently due to good genetics, should we assume that Elliot's parents are mages? They have a magical son and they have shown themselves oddly unfazed by all that's been going on, plus they somehow were surprisingly organised when it came to organise a search party.


While that is certainly posisble, we know that Elliot's magical powers are the result of 1: Anime Style Martial Arts, which can work to build up _anyone's_ magical power and cause people to dream(and it's been noted that Founder Greg is possibly awakened as he has multiple spells though no one knows for sure) and 2: The effects of the Dwwitchery Damond causing an improper wakening due to his built up magical power.

Elliot's a special case.

We also know that exposure to magic, especially at a young age(Tedd) and random chance(Sarah) are a factor in magic potential.

The Dunkles could be mages... Or they could just be regular secret agents.

Or cops... Doomsday Preppers... Random weirdoes...

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> It's been pretty heavily indicated that there is _something_ going on with those two. They coordinated a missing person search like professionals, and Elliot and Ellen don't actually know what their dad does as a job.


I'm fairly sold on Mrs Dunkel blhaving dropped out of completely ordinary secret agent training. As for their dad I have no idea.

I personally think that neither of them have spells, but I wouldn't be shocked at them knowing of magic.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> I'm fairly sold on Mrs Dunkel blhaving dropped out of completely ordinary secret agent training. As for their dad I have no idea.
> 
> I personally think that neither of them have spells, but I wouldn't be shocked at them knowing of magic.


I am convinced one of them has a _Summon Chart_ spell and that's where Edward learned his.

----------


## Fyraltari

I kind of want them to be abnormal but in a way _that's completely unrelated to everyone else's shenanigannery_.
Like they're time travellers or cosmic entitoes living incognito or whatever.

----------


## Rater202

So... does anyone else tink that thing looks like a Pokemon?

----------


## Lord Raziere

> So... does anyone else tink that thing looks like a Pokemon?


It has the legs of like a turtle pokemon, the head of something like Dragonite, and the shell of something else turtle-like with crystals like Carbink/Diancie.

there is a certain resemblance yes, mashed up resemblance but yes.

----------


## Radar

I like the latest NP comics - you can almost see the cogs rotating in Rick's mind as he tries to process a completely new thought. It will be interesting to see, what kind of conclusions he will come to.

----------


## Windscion

> I like the latest NP comics - you can almost see the cogs rotating in Rick's mind as he tries to process a completely new thought. It will be interesting to see, what kind of conclusions he will come to.


The wrong kind, I am thinking.

----------


## Radar

> The wrong kind, I am thinking.


Might still be amusing to see though.  :Small Smile:

----------


## Celestia

> So... does anyone else tink that thing looks like a Pokemon?


It looks like somebody trying to make a Pokémon but not understanding the unique aesthetic and failing to make a Pokémon.

----------


## Gez

url=https://www.egscomics.com/comic/balance-167



> Honestly, there's no real practical purpose to the grid. It provides no additional useful information. I just think it's more visually interesting with the grid, and assume this being likes providing visuals regardless of how necessary they are.


Well, there's got to be a reason why this alien being is friends with Edward Verres, and that reason has got to be a shared love of exposition charts.

----------


## Rater202

> url=https://www.egscomics.com/comic/balance-167
> 
> 
> Well, there's got to be a reason why this alien being is friends with Edward Verres, and that reason has got to be a shared love of exposition charts.


The selling point regarding the Deathless Army of rage is just how casual Mr. Verres's body language is.

This is a man who has saved the world solely by explaining why attacking it would be a bad idea so many times that it's perfectly normal to him.

----------


## Windscion

Ah, another classic image. "Do you have questions?"

----------


## Rater202

That feel when the guy you just met casually reveals that he's friends with one of your gods.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

To be fair if they're a 'mythical' deity they're probably not a very active god.

----------


## WanderingMist

It's a real shame that this will probably never be animated. I can't think of a good starting point that isn't the beginning, which is a problem because the first few arcs are so wildly different in tone yet absolutely necessary to understanding the rest of the comic.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> It's a real shame that this will probably never be animated. I can't think of a good starting point that isn't the beginning, which is a problem because the first few arcs are so wildly different in tone yet absolutely necessary to understanding the rest of the comic.


That doesn't seem like much of a problem. If the comic was being adapted into a show, it would need to be re-written anyway, so you may as well rework the earlier arcs to be consistent tonally with the later ones.

----------


## Celestia

> That doesn't seem like much of a problem. If the comic was being adapted into a show, it would need to be re-written anyway, so you may as well rework the earlier arcs to be consistent tonally with the later ones.


Yeah. A _lot_ would need to be cut out for the sake of brevity. It would also all need to be updated to a consistent timeline. A modern audience simply won't understand that Susan is wealthy because she owns a VCR.

----------


## WanderingMist

> Yeah. A _lot_ would need to be cut out for the sake of brevity. It would also all need to be updated to a consistent timeline. A modern audience simply won't understand that Susan is wealthy because she owns a VCR.


No, but they'll understand that she's wealthy because she and her mother live in a mansion. There's also Tensaided's store's existence, which itself poses possibly the most problems.

----------


## Radar

> No, but they'll understand that she's wealthy because she and her mother live in a mansion. There's also Tensaided's store's existence, which itself poses possibly the most problems.


Big TV and an extendable couch would also be solid indicators. And yes, Tensaided's store would be very anachronistic as video rental moved completely to the net. What's more, it cannot be switched to some other business as the movies are integral to a lot of further plot developments like the online reviews Elliot makes with Susan through which Diane and Ashley got to know Elliot.

----------


## Adaon Nightwind

Would it not be possible to just "set" a date when the series starts, 2001 for example, and remind the audience of that year from time to time? The later addition of Smartphones and similiar technology and their consequences would be easier to rewrite then the role of Tensaided's Store, i think.

----------


## Celestia

Video rental stores still exist. They're on their way out, sure, but they're not gone yet.

----------


## Adaon Nightwind

Indeed, yet considering that EGS´s "Technology-Timeline" keeps up with ours while the in-Comic Timeframe has barely reached a year (?), i would think that if an animated series were to be produced, be it in 1, 5 or 10 years time, the decline of Video Rental Stores would have become even more pronounced.

So i would offer a fixed year sufficiently in our past as a starting point for a series and holding to it's timeline (and keeping the technological development out of it or in the offerede timeframe) as one solution which would minimize confusion for new viewers.


Of course, there is no talk of an animated series, so this is just a sharing of ideas.

----------


## Rater202

The most Recent Q&A arc mentioned that Tenseided will probably become a Film History teacher or something along those lines at somepoint.

Presumably, an adaption would just have him as such from the start. Replace Susan's Job at the video store with like, being part of the High School Film club?

----------


## Qwertystop

Honestly, it mostly works for just... 2010s, ish? Smartphones exist but random high-schoolers don't necessarily have them, video rental places are on the downturn but still extant, the sort of online video stuff Eliot and Susan are doing exists, it all tracks.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

Oh I see, Nanase is slapping him with the glove. I thought she was just punching him in the face. This makes a lot more sense.

----------


## WanderingMist

> Oh I see, Nanase is slapping him with the glove. I thought she was just punching him in the face. This makes a lot more sense.


Wrong character. That's Ellen.

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

> Wrong character. That's Ellen.


I knew I was getting something wrong there. I looked at my post and said "Something is wrong with this". But I was too lazy to double check, and now I am reaping the consequences.

----------


## Rater202

Okay, not gonna lie, I thiink the commentary is more interesting that the strip on that NP.

I can't tell if Dan was joking here and he's usually pretty clear about that.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Okay, not gonna lie, I thiink the commentary is more interesting that the strip on that NP.
> 
> I can't tell if Dan was joking here and he's usually pretty clear about that.


This is definitely Dan goofing off. The point of the strip is that Rich didn't always hold his bad attitudes, he (and most certainly Larry) is part of a corcle of friends who mutually reinforce their toxicity. So Dan, as usual, stated their intent directly, that this illustrates Rixh wasn't born with pre-existing prejudices, realized that no-one can be and went on a tangent about how one "could".

At least that's my reading.

----------


## Maat Mons

Reincarnation-with-memories is virtually always from modern day Earth into a pseudo-medieval fantasy world.  And when it's not, it's a legendary hero/villain from a pseudo-medieval fantasy setting being reincarnated into modern day Earth.  So unless Rich is the Demon King being forced to endure the banalities of average human life for comedic effect, he's definitely not a reincarny.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Reincarnation-with-memories is virtually always from modern day Earth into a pseudo-medieval fantasy world.  And when it's not, it's a legendary hero/villain from a pseudo-medieval fantasy setting being reincarnated into modern day Earth.  So unless Rich is the Demon King being forced to endure the banalities of average human life for comedic effect, he's definitely not a reincarny.


You do realize that reincarnation, even reincarnation-with-memories, isn't something that only occurs in fiction, right?

----------


## Fyraltari

> Reincarnation-with-memories is virtually always from modern day Earth into a pseudo-medieval fantasy world.  And when it's not, it's a legendary hero/villain from a pseudo-medieval fantasy setting being reincarnated into modern day Earth.  So unless Rich is the Demon King being forced to endure the banalities of average human life for comedic effect, he's definitely not a reincarny.






> You do realize that reincarnation, even reincarnation-with-memories, isn't something that only occurs in fiction, right?


Keeping in mind that discussions of real-world religious beliefs are forbidden on this forum, can you provide examples of what you mean?

----------


## Maat Mons

I looked up "well, excuse me, princess" on Know Your Meme.  It says it's used as a response to criticism.  Did you perceive my post to be critical of someone?

----------


## Fyraltari

> I looked up "well, excuse me, princess" on Know Your Meme.  It says it's used as a response to criticism.  Did you perceive my post to be critical of someone?


No, it's just that Link doesn't have many catchphrases. Then again, I realize now that the "with-memories" part doesn't apply to his reincarnations.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> No, it's just that Link doesn't have many catchphrases. Then again, I realize now that the "with-memories" part doesn't apply to his reincarnations.


How do you know? He never actually speaks.

----------


## Maat Mons

Okay, sorry.  I'm not familiar enough with Legend of Zelda to have realized the series has a reincarnation tie-in.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Keeping in mind that discussions of real-world religious beliefs are [color=red]forbidden[/i] on this forum, can you provide examples of what you mean?


I don't think I can, no. The best I can do is remind you of the existence of Heka, gesture vaguely at Wikipedia, and hope you can figure out what I mean.

----------


## Rater202

> No, it's just that Link doesn't have many catchphrases. Then again, I realize now that the "with-memories" part doesn't apply to his reincarnations.


Not every Link is a reincarnation, some of them are descendants.

And the Hero of Wind explicitly wasn't either. Wind Waker Link was neither a reincarnation of the Hero of Time nor a Descendant of a previous incarnation, he was just someone who was "close enough" to fill the vacancy left by the Hero's absence which raises a question regarding Spirit Tracks Link, if he's a descendant or reincarnation of the Hero of Time, the Hero of Wind, or just another close enough coincidence.

Zelda, meanwhile, is always both a reincarnation of Hylia and a direct blood descendant of the previous Zelda(which makes her a direct blood descendant of the second Link as well), and Ganon(dorf) is always the same discrete individual regardless of what form he takes.

The only known exception is, ironically, the original Legend of Zelda and its sequel the Adventures of Link wherein the Princess Zelda we first meet is named after "Zelda the Frist" who has been in a magical coma this whole time and gets woken up later, meaning that She would be the current incarnation of Hylia, not the contemporary Zelda.

----------


## tyckspoon

> Okay, sorry.  I'm not familiar enough with Legend of Zelda to have realized the series has a reincarnation tie-in.


Yeah, the conceit for why every age and story has a Link, Zelda, and Ganon(dorf) is that they are continually reincarnated throughout time and fated to play out roughly the same roles in a recurring story. Link, at least, doesn't have memories of his past selves and just ends up being a courageous hero coming out of nowhere to thwart Ganon every time; I think Zelda and Ganon are aware of what is happening as aspects of the divine relics they end up bearing/representing/being infused with.

----------


## Celestia

This is all wrong. The only reincarnation in the entirety of the Zelda franchise is Ganon reincarnation in Four Swords Adventures. That's it.

The Zeldas are all descendants of the original Zelda from Skyard Sword, who was the mortal incarnation of Hylia. However, when that Zelda died, Hylia returned to the heavens and did not reincarnate. This is easily proven by Breath of the Wild where you directly communicate with Hylia through the goddess statues who is very much a separate individual to Zelda.

The Links also do not reincarnate. In fact, most Links have no connection to one another at all. The Hero of Twilight is a direct descendant of the Hero of Time, but that's all. Every other Link is disconnected. The "spirit of the hero" mentioned in Skyward Sword is metaphorical, not literal. One of the key messages of the franchise that is baked directly into the lore is that anyone can be a hero so long as they have the courage to do the right thing. That's why most Links start out as nobodies living ordinary lives until they choose to become the Hero. Claiming they're all reincarnations destined to be the Hero entirely undermines that philosophy.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Ownership of the Triforce pieces makes it confusing. We know that Ganon's piece makes him immortal, although he seems to have some ability to continue indefinitely without it (which results in Calamity Ganon). Zelda's piece is passed down the Hyrulian royal line, but exactly how is unclear (is it some kind of female primogeniture?). Link's piece is even more unclear, ownership manifests in at least two Links without any indication as to why. 'Link reincarnates' is a valid interpretation, one you could argue is supported by the only Link explicitly not connected to a previous one (WW Link) having to assemble the thing instead of just getting it.

Of course it's also possible that it just latches onto people with sufficient courage/will. WW Link doesn't get it because it's not one piece by that point.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> The Links also do not reincarnate. In fact, most Links have no connection to one another at all. The Hero of Twilight is a direct descendant of the Hero of Time, but that's all. Every other Link is disconnected. The "spirit of the hero" mentioned in Skyward Sword is metaphorical, not literal. One of the key messages of the franchise that is baked directly into the lore is that anyone can be a hero so long as they have the courage to do the right thing. That's why most Links start out as nobodies living ordinary lives until they choose to become the Hero. Claiming they're all reincarnations destined to be the Hero entirely undermines that philosophy.


Anyone can be become a hero....As long as those heroes are all blonde haired boys who wear green clothing and cap or blue shirts, wield a sword and shield and are named Link

Very weird way to express that philosophy if true. Given that, I think the fandom has some room to think otherwise or go death of the author on it.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Anyone can be become a hero....As long as those heroes are all blonde haired boys who wear green clothing and cap or blue shirts, wield a sword and shield and are named Link.


Hey! In the first two games he was a brunette!

----------


## Lord Raziere

> Hey! In the first two games he was a brunette!


Okay.

Anyone can be become a hero....As long as those heroes are all blonde or brunette haired boys who wear green clothing and cap or blue shirts, wield a sword and shield and are named Link.

Strange way to portray that philosophy, since you'd think a better way to portray that would be.....more than one background and type of person being consistently the kind of person who saves the day.

----------


## Celestia

> Ownership of the Triforce pieces makes it confusing. We know that Ganon's piece makes him immortal, although he seems to have some ability to continue indefinitely without it (which results in Calamity Ganon). Zelda's piece is passed down the Hyrulian royal line, but exactly how is unclear (is it some kind of female primogeniture?). Link's piece is even more unclear, ownership manifests in at least two Links without any indication as to why. 'Link reincarnates' is a valid interpretation, one you could argue is supported by the only Link explicitly not connected to a previous one (WW Link) having to assemble the thing instead of just getting it.
> 
> Of course it's also possible that it just latches onto people with sufficient courage/will. WW Link doesn't get it because it's not one piece by that point.


Considering there is Link in the franchise who has "just [gotten] it" while the rest either have to work for it or never acquire it, this is all entirely irrelevant. 




> Anyone can be become a hero....As long as those heroes are all blonde haired boys who wear green clothing and cap or blue shirts, wield a sword and shield and are named Link
> 
> Very weird way to express that philosophy if true. Given that, I think the fandom has some room to think otherwise or go death of the author on it.


Not all Links are blonde. Many are brunette, and the Hero of Legend has pink hair. The outfit is more of a uniform with three separate games explaining its importance. The name is a metaphor as the protagonist is the "link" between the player and the game world. All of the Links have wielded weapons other than swords and shields.

Yes, there are visual similarities between all the Links, and I think they could be a bit more progressive in their character customization options. However, that doesn't really invalidate the point. They also are at least somewhat trying. Breath of the Wild Link was specifically designed to have both masculine and feminine features in an attempt to bridge the gap between male player characters and female player characters.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I'm hoping that the game after BotW2 gives us a female Link and male Zelda/Tetra. But that's unlikely to happen.

I still wish that Wind Waker had used the dark skinned Zelda design.


TW Link gets the ToC withno *in-game* explanation. The LoZ/AoL Link is marked as the chosen wielder before earning it (but Early Installment Weirdness). I honestly forgot that ALBW didn't have Link having it all along. The placement of the Oracle games is up for debate, but officially Link has already held the full Triforce (even if this placement doesn't gel with the Linked Games). But eh, I don't actually support the Link reincarnates' theory, I was just pointing out that it's a valid reading of the games.

----------


## Windscion

Andrea's responce could be forms mixed to make greater chimeras, or the results of such. In context, I am reading those as ingredients not results. Which is interesting, considering that three-headed dogs, hydras, and nine-tailed foxes are kind of non-baseline to begin with.

And yet Lespuko are "*MUCH*" more interesting. Presumably because of how it interacts with her Uryuom heritage.
(https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2004-03-10)

----------


## Pax1138

> Andrea's responce could be forms mixed to make greater chimeras, or the results of such. In context, I am reading those as ingredients not results. Which is interesting, considering that three-headed dogs, hydras, and nine-tailed foxes are kind of non-baseline to begin with.
> 
> And yet Lespuko are "*MUCH*" more interesting. Presumably because of how it interacts with her Uryuom heritage.
> (https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2004-03-10)


Also reading those creatures as separate forms or critters, not (uryuom) chimeras.  I mean, after all, the conversation is with a _griffin_.  Wonder if this forebodes more info coming about the Lespuko, considering we basically know nothing about them other than that they are big and mean and pair well.  And are probably also immigrants from Medieval World?

----------


## Gez

I know we're 30 pages too early for that, but from the author's notes here I want to suggest "a convoluted universe of nonsense" as future thread title.

----------


## Rater202

We also know that Lespuko claws secrete a venom that inhibits regeneration.

Tha'ts why Damien didn't immediately recover from the scratches Grace inflicted on him.

Edit: Also... We know that Grace's fur in her half squirrel form is fireproof. the picture we see of a Lespuko suggests that they don't have fur, and obviously, squirrels aren't fireproof so either the genetic samples grace was created with were altered(unlikely, we're told that it was done with vials of blood) or Grace has a fifth genetic parent that her grandfather didn't know about.

----------


## Windscion

Fear the SQUIRREL!

----------


## WanderingMist

> We also know that Lespuko claws secrete a venom that inhibits regeneration.
> 
> Tha'ts why Damien didn't immediately recover from the scratches Grace inflicted on him.
> 
> Edit: Also... We know that Grace's fur in her half squirrel form is fireproof. the picture we see of a Lespuko suggests that they don't have fur, and obviously, squirrels aren't fireproof so either the genetic samples grace was created with were altered(unlikely, we're told that it was done with vials of blood) or Grace has a fifth genetic parent that her grandfather didn't know about.


Considering she was specifically engineered to defeat Damien whose main weapon is fire, I think we can assume that either they modified her to be fireproof, or that lespuko are naturally fireproof and Grace gets that effect whenever she transforms (and possibly when she's not transformed but I doubt she particularly wants to test that).

----------


## Maat Mons

Squirrels thwart humans with a regularity few animals can boast.  I mean, when have you heard of someone having to lion-proof a bird feeder?  The squirrel-proofing market is exceeded only by the baby-proofing market.  So it's clear that squirrels are the second most dangerous creatures on the planet.

----------


## Rater202

> Considering she was specifically engineered to defeat Damien whose main weapon is fire, I think we can assume that either they modified her to be fireproof, or that lespuko are naturally fireproof and Grace gets that effect whenever she transforms (and possibly when she's not transformed but I doubt she particularly wants to test that).


...It is *explicily* her fur that is fire proof.

Lespukos don't have fur.

----------


## Maat Mons

Maybe the _ancestors_ of lespuko had fire-proof fur.  The trait would still be kicking around their genome, just waiting to be unlocked.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Lespukos don't have fur.


Do we have proof of that? No (un-chimeraed) Lespukos have appeared in the comic, and we have no idea if they're all alike beyond the claw stuff.

----------


## Qwertystop

Or just their hair is fireproof.

----------


## Rater202

> Do we have proof of that? No (un-chimeraed) Lespukos have appeared in the comic, and we have no idea if they're all alike beyond the claw stuff.


We have explicitly seen what Lespkos look like.

Note the distinct lack of any form of hair.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> We have explicitly seen what Lespkos look like.
> 
> Note the distinct lack of any form of hair.


I see nothing definitively nothing any of the characters in that comic as Lespuko.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> I see nothing definitively nothing any of the characters in that comic as Lespuko.


I'm pretty sure it is. The second comic linked to in the description is explicitly showing a lespuko, and in the comic after that one the lespuko shapeshifts slightly to look identical (allowing for art evolution) to the creature in this comic.

----------


## Rater202

> I see nothing definitively nothing any of the characters in that comic as Lespuko.


1: The creature in the panel discussing the effects of Grace's Lespuko Heritage is explicitly identified as a Lespuko in the commentary of this strip, which links directly to that one.

It also links to a dream sequence depicting another Lespuko(which indicates that they are also the origin of the horns and spikes that grace sometimes manifests in her three-tailed state) but I elected to go for the more clear image.

----------


## Gez

> We have explicitly seen what Lespkos look like.
> 
> Note the distinct lack of any form of hair.


I wouldn't read too much into this... After all, generic uryuoms are also depicted hairless, but we've seen uryuoms with hair too.

Remember that this is a convoluted universe of nonsense and just accept that perhaps the explanation will be something as dumb as "lespukos don't usually have hair, but when they do, it's fireproof".

I'd point out as well as:
1. look at the Q&A bunnies. Graphically, there's nothing that betrays the presence of fur on these bunnies. The line art is perfectly smooth, there aren't little jagged lines like we see on the owl to indicate fuzziness. The only thing that makes the bunnies look furry is reader knowledge that bunnies are furry. The squirrel is also very smooth, there's just one little mark of fuzz on its upper arm, that's all. So with this in mind regarding the art style in that page, the apparent lack of hair on the lespuko is not necessarily actually an apparent lack of hair. Just an apparent lack of fuzziness.
2. look at the Grace dream lespuko and you'll notice he's got little fuzz lines on his body similar to those drawn on Grace's partly-squirrely body.
3. the very first lespuko illustration is drawn with fuzzy antennae and human-like hair. For the rest of his body, he wears a shirt. Granted he could be an illustration of a uryuom/lespuko hybrid but if so that's not clearly implied.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> 3. the very first lespuko illustration is drawn with fuzzy antennae and human-like hair. For the rest of his body, he wears a shirt. Granted he could be an illustration of a uryuom/lespuko hybrid but if so that's not clearly implied.


That image is of alternate Shade Tail. You see he and Grace standing side by side in the next comic where it's more explicitly spelled out.

----------


## Gnoman

Hm. That's not ominous at all.

----------


## Radar

> Hm. That's not ominous at all.


Yup! Not ominous in the slightest.

----------


## Windscion

Interesting line: "I don't have four legs right now." I would guess a (greater?) seyunolu, since that sounds like a major shape change.
And at least one non-uryuom non-seyunolu person, since their magic is known to work.

----------


## Rater202

> I wouldn't read too much into this... After all, generic uryuoms are also depicted hairless, but we've seen uryuoms with hair too.


That's explicitly the result of transformation technology, we're told that they don't naturally have hair.



> Interesting line: "I don't have four legs right now." I would guess a (greater?) seyunolu, since that sounds like a major shape change.
> And at least one non-uryuom non-seyunolu person, since their magic is known to work.


Also possiby a griffin in a magical desquise.

Also no confirmation that they're not Uryuoms: We quite clearly see an Uryuom casting a fire spell from a wand and laughing maniacally after MAgic's Not-Change and before that we got the implication that Uryuom's lack of spellcasting ability was a byproduct of MAgic changing or else Heka doing something when militant Uryuoms tried to invade the library.

I doubt that either circumstance happened on the other world.

----------


## Spamotron

EGS:NP 

Well it looks like George is a Dreamer. His hair is doing the dramatic blowing in nonexistent wind thing that Susan's does.

----------


## WanderingMist

> EGS:NP 
> 
> Well it looks like George is a Dreamer. His hair is doing the dramatic blowing in nonexistent wind thing that Susan's does.


Moperville has always been a hotspot of magic. It wouldn't surprise me if what Pandora did made everyone there a Dreamer.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> EGS:NP 
> 
> Well it looks like George is a Dreamer. His hair is doing the dramatic blowing in nonexistent wind thing that Susan's does.


Man, the hair fairies never get any respect. They put a lot of work into those effects!

----------


## Celestia

I want to say, "It's just artistic license; it doesn't mean anything," but I'm pretty sure that was the exact explanation given by Dan for Susan's hair in the early days of the comic, and look where that ended up. So, I dunno.

----------


## Qwertystop

> I want to say, "It's just artistic license; it doesn't mean anything," but I'm pretty sure that was the exact explanation given by Dan for Susan's hair in the early days of the comic, and look where that ended up. So, I dunno.


I don't think the hair fairies have been established as canon, though?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I don't think the hair fairies have been established as canon, though?


The official answer is 'maybe'.

----------


## Lizard Lord

I can't recall if this np story had been confirmed as cannon or not yet, but I hope it is and that it ends with them agreeing to continue playing as a full campaign.

----------


## Maat Mons

We know Nanase is one of the few people George finds intimidating.  Form her expression in today's comic, should we infer that George is one of the few people _Nanase_ finds intimidating?

----------


## Fyraltari

Playing with both Nanase and Ellen, I wonder how much Rich is going to be able to focus.



> We know Nanase is one of the few people George finds intimidating.  Form her expression in today's comic, should we infer that George is one of the few people _Nanase_ finds intimidating?


Or she's never played tabletop RPG herself and is stressed that she might put Ellen in a bad spot.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Or she's never played tabletop RPG herself and is stressed that she might put Ellen in a bad spot.


Wasn't Nanase explicitly one of the people who Ellen (as Elliot) remembers playing tabletop RPGs with back in the before time?

EDIT: No, it was Tedd and Sarah.

----------


## Gez

Turns out she's just stressed about having to act.

But you don't need to act in an RPG! At least a tabletop one. It's harder to escape acting in a LARP. But in a tabletop game, you can always get away with just describing your character's action (and even speech!) instead of mock-acting them. Often, you'll pretty much have to, because there's rarely enough room around the table to play-act a sword fight.

----------


## Windscion

So, Edward Verres has had the same epiphany as Roy Greenhilt.
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1022.html panel 6.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Turns out she's just stressed about having to act.
> 
> But you don't need to act in an RPG! At least a tabletop one. It's harder to escape acting in a LARP. But in a tabletop game, you can always get away with just describing your character's action (and even speech!) instead of mock-acting them. Often, you'll pretty much have to, because there's rarely enough room around the table to play-act a sword fight.


She's probably thinking of something like Critical Role. I'm expecting by the end of this storyline Larry will join Ellen and Nanase's group.

Also clearly everything roleplaying related will be declared canon, but nothing else in this storyline is

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> So, Edward Verres has had the same epiphany as Roy Greenhilt.
> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1022.html panel 6.


Well that's what Elliot heard, but I don't think it's what Mr. Verres was actually trying to convey. 

He was pretty much saying that it was wrong to plan on a heroic sacrifice at all when he could have done a lot more to prevent the need for one if he had properly taken into account the abilities of everyone present. His instinct to keep the kids out of it, even after he agreed to bring them along, is what caused him to throw himself into harm's way.

So big facepalm for Elliot only half listening and reaching the exact wrong conclusion.  :Small Sigh:

----------


## PoeticallyPsyco

> Well that's what Elliot heard, but I don't think it's what Mr. Verres was actually trying to convey. 
> 
> He was pretty much saying that it was wrong to plan on a heroic sacrifice at all when he could have done a lot more to prevent the need for one if he had properly taken into account the abilities of everyone present. His instinct to keep the kids out of it, even after he agreed to bring them along, is what caused him to throw himself into harm's way.
> 
> So big facepalm for Elliot only half listening and reaching the exact wrong conclusion.


In fairness, "if you crunch the numbers and a heroic sacrifice won't actually work, maybe don't do that" is not the worst possible lesson to take to heart. Especially since it should only take a few applications of that to realize it's _never_ guaranteed to work, and from there a relatively short step to "so it shouldn't be the first thing I consider anyway".

----------


## Rater202

> So big facepalm for Elliot only half listening and reaching the exact wrong conclusion.


...Ooh, Bishop is an evil counterpart of Elliot. Because _she_ learned the exact wrong lesson from Arthur.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> In fairness, "if you crunch the numbers and a heroic sacrifice won't actually work, maybe don't do that" is not the worst possible lesson to take to heart. Especially since it should only take a few applications of that to realize it's _never_ guaranteed to work, and from there a relatively short step to "so it shouldn't be the first thing I consider anyway".


Fair enough, but it only takes "a few applications" for something to go horribly wrong....

----------


## Windscion

Interestingly, it appears the Dunkels senior have hit the limit on their ability to take matters in stride.

----------


## WanderingMist

> Interestingly, it appears the Dunkels senior have hit the limit on their ability to take matters in stride.


They take weirdness in stride. Not danger to their kids.

----------


## Rater202

Yeah: Recall in Sister III, when Sirlek and Magus body jacked Elliot and Ellen the elder Dunkels turned into a professional search party.

----------


## Kish

So I'd just like to reiterate my early vote for "El Goonish Shive VIII: Please Don't Feel Bad."

(Tedd, you were in the room when Elliott told your father, before you had any rational reason to expect danger from the griffons, that he was planning to grab for the villain form if he needed a power-up. Why are you acting like it was something he did due to stress?)

----------


## Lizard Lord

Because Elliot phrased the events like it was something he did under stress (while still thinking that is a bad thing in his case).

----------


## Windscion

I have to say, well done Tedd. You nailed it here. Always call things by their true names.
Tedd is starting to help Elliot, which is a nice change in the dynamic.

(Also, it is interesting to see Arthur's shadow there.)

----------


## Pax1138

> I have to say, well done Tedd. You nailed it here. Always call things by their true names.
> Tedd is starting to help Elliot, which is a nice change in the dynamic.
> 
> (Also, it is interesting to see Arthur's shadow there.)


At first I thought you were being literal, and then I realized how what Tedd was saying was like being in Arthur's symbolic shadow, and then I looked at the strip again and saw Arthur's literal shadow.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## WanderingMist

> So I'd just like to reiterate my early vote for "El Goonish Shive VIII: Please Don't Feel Bad."
> 
> (Tedd, you were in the room when Elliott told your father, before you had any rational reason to expect danger from the griffons, that he was planning to grab for the villain form if he needed a power-up. Why are you acting like it was something he did due to stress?)


Disagree with the "no rational reason" bit here. They don't know _anything_ about the other side other than that two seemingly-friendly griffins exist on it. Now, I don't know how they don't know anything about it given that they clearly know about dimensional travel (the walrus) but somehow they don't. It is wise to fear the unknown. There eventually comes a time to disregard fear but the meeting with the griffins is not that time, as Mr. Veres so helpfully demonstrated with a list of things that could go wrong.

----------


## Vinyadan

That last panel reads like a very pensive sex ed illustration.

----------


## Taevyr

> That last panel reads like a very pensive sex ed illustration.


Dammit, you actually got me laughing out loud here. Brilliant.

----------


## Fyraltari

> That last panel reads like a very pensive sex ed illustration.


Oh god, that's great!

----------


## Maat Mons

I guess Celestia gets a cookie.

----------


## Celestia

> I guess Celestia gets a cookie.


Hey, thanks. I usually like bragging about my correct predictions, especially when everyone else disagreed with me, but this one I straight up forgot about.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## WanderingMist

I didn't see this coming. Like, it's not out of nowhere but still...

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I didn't see this coming. Like, it's not out of nowhere but still...


I'm more surprised that they're engaged. They e been going out for.. did they start dating before or after the big time skip? I'm fairly certain it happened after Edward got sidemoted. Like ten months at most.

Moving in together yes, god knows I'd be living with my partners if I could. But an engagement feels a bit rushed.

----------


## Celestia

> I'm more surprised that they're engaged. They e been going out for.. did they start dating before or after the big time skip? I'm fairly certain it happened after Edward got sidemoted. Like ten months at most.
> 
> Moving in together yes, god knows I'd be living with my partners if I could. But an engagement feels a bit rushed.


It's really not, though. I assume they've known each other as coworkers and friends for years. They may have only been dating for a few months, but they've got enough history to make up for it. It seems just fine to me.

----------


## Rater202

We know that Lavender has been acting a touch flirty with Edward for a while and had been working as his secretary for at least a couple of years.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

It still feels a little weird to take the step of getting engaged when your family has never met the person or really not aware of their existence at all.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> It still feels a little weird to take the step of getting engaged when your family has never met the person or really not aware of their existence at all.


Yeah, it feels like they've jumped about eight steps. Even if Edward and Lavender are clearly jetting off to Spain after Tedd starts uni.


Anyway, character guesses:
Nanase: halfling barbarian
Rich: elven wizard
Larry: half-elf rogue
George: human fighter (or maybe cleric)

----------


## Radar

> I'm more surprised that they're engaged. They e been going out for.. did they start dating before or after the big time skip? I'm fairly certain it happened after Edward got sidemoted. Like ten months at most.
> 
> Moving in together yes, god knows I'd be living with my partners if I could. But an engagement feels a bit rushed.


It really depends to be honest. As was said, they know each other for quite a long time, so getting serious with the relationship fast does not seem as big of an issue. Besides, they are not 20 - they are mature enough to know themselves and what they want from a relationship - this streamlines a lot of the early relationship stage _will it work out?_ and _is this what we want from life?_ questions. It is also worth mentioning that engagement means only as much as you want it to mean. There are no specific formalities - just an agreement that you want to eventually get married. If things do not work out, there is nothing specific you really need to do.

And frankly, I've done it far crazier: I got married exactly on the first anniversary of our first date. I was 30 when I met my wife and she was only a bit younger, so we were able to approach this far more consciously than if we were 20 at the time. Still, it *was* crazy.

----------


## Celestia

> It still feels a little weird to take the step of getting engaged when your family has never met the person or really not aware of their existence at all.


That is entirely irrelevant. Your family should never be a part of your romantic relationships. You don't need anyone's approval to be with someone.




> Anyway, character guesses:
> Nanase: halfling barbarian
> Rich: elven wizard
> Larry: half-elf rogue
> George: human fighter (or maybe cleric)


Nanase won't be a barbarian. I commented that on the Facebook post, and Dan said no one guessed it in the commentary.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> That is entirely irrelevant. Your family should never be a part of your romantic relationships. You don't need anyone's approval to be with someone.


You should probably let your child meet your girlfriend before they start living together. You don't need their approval, but what if Tedd and Lavender end up hating each other.

----------


## mucat

> You should probably let your child meet your girlfriend before they start living together. You don't need their approval, but what if Tedd and Lavender end up hating each other.


Tedd and Grace are leaving for university.  The timing might not be a coincidence.

----------


## Lord Raziere

.....so yeah Tedd has a lot to unpack. a lot of.....issues regarding this development. there are multiple layers here, all reasonable. like where to start with this?

----------


## Rater202

> Tedd and Grace are leaving for university.  The timing might not be a coincidence.


They're going to university... Here in the same town.

Not everyone lives on campus. Lots of people still live with their parents in college.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> That is entirely irrelevant. Your family should never be a part of your romantic relationships. You don't need anyone's approval to be with someone.


It's not entirely irrelevant if you're not estranged from your family and you want them to get along with and have a relationship with your romantic partner. It's entirely his choice, but it does affect other people when it gets to a certain stage, and it seems weird for Mr. Verres to begin advancing the relationship before even telling anyone that a significant other exists.

He basically just walked in and said "By the way, I have a new fiancee and you're going to meet her next week when she starts living with us." Like, this isn't the way to not freak people out. Despite everyone being busy with crazy stuff happening, I expect him to have acted sooner and planned things out better. It feels out of character for him.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> .....so yeah Tedd has a lot to unpack. a lot of.....issues regarding this development. there are multiple layers here, all reasonable. like where to start with this?


Let's start with 'don't expect people to get along before they've met'.

Yeah, today's comic has confirmed it, Edward is an idiot.




> Lots of people still live with their parents in college.


That's a common thing in America? I don't know anybody who lived with their parents while at uni. It's not very conductive to getting drunk until 3am and catching herpes.

----------


## WanderingMist

> That's a common thing in America? I don't know anybody who lived with their parents while at uni. It's not very conducive to getting drunk until 3am and catching herpes.



College is expensive enough as it is, and room & board generally aren't covered by tuition. Renting off-campus is usually even more expensive.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> College is expensive enough as it is, and room & board generally aren't covered by tuition. Renting off-campus is usually even more expensive.


Huh, no maintainance loans/grants in the US?

I guess at least you can't spend your first term's worth entirely at the off-licence getting booze.

----------


## Rater202

> Huh, no maintainance loans/grants in the US?
> 
> I guess at least you can't spend your first term's worth entirely at the off-licence getting booze.


Student loans are a thing but they don't ah, kind of predatory.

Housing in the US is really expensive right now.

College tuition is *also* absurdly expensive.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

If the college is near enough to your actual home, I don't think most kids would move out. Not in today's economy, at least. The comic might still be based on early-2000s life, though. But even back then, I didn't see people being able to afford moving out if they're going to a local community college.

----------


## WanderingMist

> Huh, no maintenance loans/grants in the US?
> 
> I guess at least you can't spend your first term's worth entirely at the off-licence getting booze.


Don't what what a maintenance loan is, so, probably not. Or possibly they're only for the very poor. Some colleges do force you to room on-campus your first year. I don't drink, and have no desire to experience being drunk personally. Really saved me a lot of money in college. Was able to pay my whole way through and leave without student loan debt.


Average US college tuition is about $21,000. Half that for branch colleges [where there is a "main" original campus and several "branches" whose degrees all say they come from the same university], and half again for community colleges (based on the ones I know, at any rate).

Ivy League tuition, the top schools, average $56,000. Granted, most of those students are going to come from rich families, but it's still ridiculous.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Don't what what a maintenance loan is, so, probably not. Or possibly they're only for the very poor. Some colleges do force you to room on-campus your first year. I don't drink, and have no desire to experience being drunk personally. Really saved me a lot of money in college. Was able to pay my whole way through and leave without student loan debt.


Here in the UK student loans are split between a Tuition Fee Loan, which is paid directly to your uni and covers your tuition fees, and a Maintainance Loan(/Grant? When I was at uni part of it was a grant). The maintainance grant is to cover the cost of living away from home and is means tested (so richer kids get less government support).




> Average US college tuition is about $21,000. Half that for branch colleges [where there is a "main" original campus and several "branches" whose degrees all say they come from the same university], and half again for community colleges (based on the ones I know, at any rate).
> 
> Ivy League tuition, the top schools, average $56,000. Granted, most of those students are going to come from rich families, but it's still ridiculous.


That's a lot. When I went to uni it was £9,000/year, and it's only increased by £250 a year since then. Which includes Oxbridge as well as the less reputable unis.

----------


## Gez

My university tuition fee was around 120 per year, this included insurance and access to the computer labs -- the tuition proper was, by itself, 17 per year.

Damn it feels good not to be an American or British person.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Kish

> After the previous comic, however, I realized that I only had an idea in my head about what made Nanase exceptional in Rich's mind, and separate from Ellen, and I hadn't shared it with the rest of the class.


Ah, Dan. What a disaster it would be if your readers had to speculate about a recurring character's motivations.

----------


## Celestia

> Ah, Dan. What a disaster it would be if your readers had to speculate about a recurring character's motivations.


It is odd that Dan seems to have this idea that he needs to be as crystal clear as possible and that any ambiguity in a story is BadTM.

----------


## Windscion

I think that writers are not necessarily any crazier than the rest of us, just that it becomes a lot more obvious.
Also? Still trying to figure out what Elliot's brainwave was.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Ah, Dan. What a disaster it would be if your readers had to speculate about a recurring character's motivations.


I kind of find hilarious the notion there would be any ambiguity that Rich would be especially awkward around the coolest most beautiful girl in his age group.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Geez, now I feel bad I criticized Edward for doing something impulsive...  :Small Sigh:

----------


## WanderingMist

> It is odd that Dan seems to have this idea that he needs to be as crystal clear as possible and that any ambiguity in a story is BadTM.


Well, you don't have to read the commentary. Besides, we do have ambiguity in the main story with Liam and his friends.

----------


## Celestia

> Well, you don't have to read the commentary.


Lol




> Besides, we do have ambiguity in the main story with Liam and his friends.


No, no. That's _mystery_ not _ambiguity._ They are similar but meaningfully different.

----------


## Kish

> Well, you don't have to read the commentary.


True. One could choose to only have what's going on in Rich's head spelled out to them in painfully explicit detail once rather than twice. Not that I would agree with the implication that criticism of what Dan chooses to do with said commentary is somehow invalid, even if that was the only place where he was doing the "out out damned ambiguity!" thing.

----------


## Vinyadan

There actually was a time when I was about to drop EGS because the commentary, combined with the comic, was bloating it through repetition. So I blocked the commentary with an adblock. Now I just avoid reading them.

----------


## WanderingMist

> Not that I would agree with the implication that criticism of what Dan chooses to do with said commentary is somehow invalid, even if that was the only place where he was doing the "out out damned ambiguity!" thing.


Then let me make myself explicit: Criticizing commentary _is_ invalid in and of itself, because commentary has nothing to do with the story. It merely explains how the author themself views the story, or a particular scene within it. One would be critiquing the author for their way of thinking rather than the story.

----------


## Celestia

> I kind of find hilarious the notion there would be any ambiguity that Rich would be especially awkward around the coolest most beautiful girl in his age group.


But Diane is isn't in the store.

----------


## Windscion

> But Diane is isn't in the store.


Not sure how that's relevant unless your point is that Susan isn't there either.

----------


## Kish

> Then let me make myself explicit: Criticizing commentary _is_ invalid in and of itself, because commentary has nothing to do with the story. It merely explains how the author themself views the story, or a particular scene within it. One would be critiquing the author for their way of thinking rather than the story.


I will somehow live without your approval, and continue to treat Dan's insistence on explaining every strip as on-topic for this thread. Let me know if you need help figuring out how to put me on ignore.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

So given that each strip has a commentary section, what should it contain if not comments about the current strip? I'm confused.

----------


## Rater202

I choose to interpret the bit in the commentary where Dan considered a casual reveal that Tedd and Grace had eloped off-screen as a 100% truthful and literal statement.

Part of me is disappointed that he didn't. It would have been a perfect caper for the "practically married" gag.

----------


## WanderingMist

> Not sure how that's relevant unless your point is that Susan isn't there either.


Pretty sure the point is that "coolness" and "beauty" are relative to the observer. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and all that (if you bring up Sunny, I will smack you).

----------


## Rater202

Not sure if platonic male affection or shiptease.

----------


## Maat Mons

Silly Edward.  _Everyone_ is engaged.

----------


## Celestia

> Not sure if platonic male affection or shiptease.


Well, definitely not the former because Tedd is non-binary.

----------


## Radar

> Well, definitely not the former because Tedd is non-binary.


And Elliot's gender is not exactly firmly specified either - not sure if he has any strong preference aside from inertia and convenience (he was a male for most of his life, so it's his default form).

----------


## Celestia

> And Elliot's gender is not exactly firmly specified either - not sure if he has any strong preference aside from inertia and convenience (he was a male for most of his life, so it's his default form).


It is somewhat interesting that Elliot is so blasé about his gender while Ellen cares deeply about being a woman.

----------


## Windscion

Don't agree. Yes, she told Elliot she was happy being a woman, but her vehemence seemed much more due to knowing Elliot needed to hear a firm answer before he would stop guilting himself.
Because you know he would.

----------


## Radar

> Don't agree. Yes, she told Elliot she was happy being a woman, but her vehemence seemed much more due to knowing Elliot needed to hear a firm answer before he would stop guilting himself.
> Because you know he would.


I'd say a bit of both. Ellen is in general more decisive than Elliot, so it is reasonable that her choice of gender is also more distinct. I would also point out that despite the access to relevant technology and magic, she does not experiment with turning into a man at all - that also says something.

----------


## Kish

For two things, it says that she doesn't want to break up with Nanase and become physically indistinguishable from Elliott.

----------


## Windscion

> For two things, it says that she doesn't want to break up with Nanase and become physically indistinguishable from Elliott.


Honestly, if she were not with Nanase, I think her answer might have been less certain. But the second point would be true regardless.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Remember that Ellen also experienced an entire childhood as a girl via the dreams of an alternate dimension version of herself. She is just as used to being a girl as Elliot is used to being a guy, if not more.

----------


## Gnoman

> For two things, it says that she doesn't want to break up with Nanase and become physically indistinguishable from Elliott.


Transformations don't have to be permanent - most of the characters in the strip have spent some time in an opposite-sex morph. They can also change your appearance _significantly_. So neither breaking up with Nanase or looking like Elliot are inevitable consequences of changing. Ellen knows this. The fact that she hasn't chosen to go through even temporary morphs (as Tedd did before really figuring out why) points to either a very deep security or a very deep _in_security with her gender identity. And I don't think Shive would have the latter be a character trait without explicit hints.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Remember that Ellen also experienced an entire childhood as a girl via the dreams of an alternate dimension version of herself. She is just as used to being a girl as Elliot is used to being a guy, if not more.


Ellen has more experience being a woman than Elliot does being a man (I think about a year, it depends on exact ages during Painted Black), a few external pressures to conforming to being female, and is possibly slightly more mature (YMMV). Add in 18 years of maybe not repressing herself as much as Elliot did, and the time she spent with Grace before starting high school, and you get the perfect recipe for her being more aware of her gender identity but actively deciding to present as female.

Like Ellen and Grace are the two most knowledgeable cast members about this. I wonder if that's a coincidence.

As for the scene, I'd say yes it's not strictly platonic, and that there's been Tedd/Elliot feelings since the early comic. I just don't think there's enough attractive to make a relationship work, but friend cuddles are good cuddles.

----------


## MetroAlien

Romantic relationships don't have to be a binary choice (pun intended)
Two people can be somewhat romantic towards each other, while also not going all the way.
Maybe because the non-romantic feelings are stronger, but maybe because the romantic feelings aren't strong enough.

----------


## Lizard Lord

I also assumed "gender casual" to mean "I am comfortable in the gender of what form I have which I generally only choose to change due to external factors rather than my own emotional state". 

Which is kind of a gender indentity that only a shape shifter has.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

"Gender casual" is what the author himself identifies as, and I don't think he's a shapeshifter.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Romantic relationships don't have to be a binary choice (pun intended)
> Two people can be somewhat romantic towards each other, while also not going all the way.
> Maybe because the non-romantic feelings are stronger, but maybe because the romantic feelings aren't strong enough.


To clarify: I think there will be cuddles, I don't think there will be kisses. Either way it'll be as cute as a fireproof squirrel.




> "Gender casual" is what the author himself identifies as, and I don't think he's a shapeshifter.


He's no longer a noncommittal shrug? Learn something new every day.

(No, I don't read the commentaries anymore.)

----------


## Kish

It just occurred to me that I don't agree the school play scene shows Nanase being crap at acting. She's struggling with the dialogue in a way that indicates her mind is struggling to find meaning in words that look incoherent to her. This is an indictment of whoever is running the school play, that no one told her "wherefore" is an archaic word for "why" rather than the script just randomly having Juliet say "where for are thou Romeo?" But the mere fact that she's thinking in terms of "find meaning and impart the correct emotion here" puts her ahead of 90% of high school or college students I ever knew.

----------


## Gez

> I also assumed "gender casual" to mean "I am comfortable in the gender of what form I have which I generally only choose to change due to external factors rather than my own emotional state". 
> 
> Which is kind of a gender indentity that only a shape shifter has.


Being comfortable in the gender of the form you have and not choosing to change it is basically the best description of cissexuality I can think of.

----------


## Lizard Lord

To be honest my definition is based soley off of what I have observed from Elliot who seems to have no desire to be female beyond "this form is useful here", but also no longer has any desire to not be female. He is just casual about it and doesn't particularly care.

I just don't know how that would work with someone that can't shapshift.

----------


## Radar

> To be honest my definition is based soley off of what I have observed from Elliot who seems to have no desire to be female beyond "this form is useful here", but also no longer has any desire to not be female. He is just casual about it and doesn't particularly care.
> 
> I just don't know how that would work with someone that can't shapshift.


He does care about having an option to be either male or female - the risk of magic changing and taking it all away from him has shaken him quite a bit.

----------


## WanderingMist

> He does care about having an option to be either male or female - the risk of magic changing and taking it all away from him has shaken him quite a bit.


Hey, if I had any shapeshifting abilities, I wouldn't want them taken away either. Like I wonder if Elliot's power had been transforming into different animals instead and he learned he might be limited to one after magic's change if he would have the same reaction.

----------


## Windscion

Am I the only one who sees Elliot's nigh-instantaneous recovery as a ass-pull?
Tara said he was so hollow (balance-144) she barely recognzed him.

----------


## DeTess

> Am I the only one who sees Elliot's nigh-instantaneous recovery as a ass-pull?
> Tara said he was so hollow (balance-144) she barely recognzed him.


The most recent strip suggests this was far from an instantaneous recovery.

----------


## Windscion

Oh it took a lot out of him, but we were told to expect that.

After some thought, I think Elliot went straight to Mall Elliot because that has become his go-to when he is worried about being seen as scary (balance-120), and he did get into a brawl tonight.

----------


## WanderingMist

> Am I the only one who sees Elliot's nigh-instantaneous recovery as a ass-pull?
> Tara said he was so hollow (balance-144) she barely recognized him.


The most recent strip seems to imply he immediately burned himself out again by attempting his superhero spell.

----------


## Rater202

It's a spell that accelerates his natural healing.

Why *wouldn't* that include healing his ability to use magic?

Nanase was burnt out for a while the first time, but that was becuase she was running on Empty when she cast a spell that had an automatic burnout. When she and Ellen burned ot the second time they were fine within a day or two, meaning that Burning out doesn't necessarily last that long.

without the healing spell, Elliot probably would have woken up healed the next morning...

...But immediately casting a spell seems to have had some major consequences

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Burnout seems to heal at least partially at the discretion of the Will of Magic, at least going by Nanase's not ending until a dramatically appropriate moment. Therefore I'd find it very reasonable that a magical healing spell powered by magic that accelerates natural healing might not necessarily cure being put in the magical time-out corner.

----------


## Radar

> Burnout seems to heal at least partially at the discretion of the Will of Magic, at least going by Nanase's not ending until a dramatically appropriate moment. Therefore I'd find it very reasonable that a magical healing spell powered by magic that accelerates natural healing might not necessarily cure being put in the magical time-out corner.


Essentially, the spell healed all the superficial effects of a burnout, but it obviously did not replenish the energy and such.

----------


## Fyraltari

> It's a spell that accelerates his natural healing.
> 
> Why *wouldn't* that include healing his ability to use magic?


Because Edward didn't expect it to and he should know?

I think this is down to magic "not-changing".

----------


## Rater202

> Because Edward didn't expect it to and he should know?
> 
> I think this is down to magic "not-changing".


Why should he know? He copeid this spell and only knows what he was told about how it works.

He's not a Seer, his Wizard vision just copies spells. It doens't provide any insight the way Tedd's does.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Why should he know? He copeid this spell and only knows what he was told about how it works.
> 
> He's not a Seer, his Wizard vision just copies spells. It doens't provide any insight the way Tedd's does.


Because he's a professional. I don't think he goes around using spells without knowing exactly what they do. It's not like burning-out is a rare phenomenon.

----------


## Gez

> Because he's a professional. I don't think he goes around using spells without knowing exactly what they do. It's not like burning-out is a rare phenomenon.


He had no way of knowing exactly what this spell does, besides what he was told about it, and he wasn't told that it also affected "magic wounds", if burn-out can be considered such (which is apparently the case).

https://www.egscomics.com/comic/balance-175

"Our system of magic hasn't provided much in the way of healing." -- Edward basically admits he has never even heard of any spell that is actually useful for healing. Which is why he was so eager to learn that he sliced his own palm. So he cast a spell that he just learned, knowing about it only what the griffins told him. There's no way he can be a professional healer since it's literally his first time ever practicing a form of magic that he didn't even know existed.

----------


## Fyraltari

> He had no way of knowing exactly what this spell does, besides what he was told about it, and he wasn't told that it also affected "magic wounds", if burn-out can be considered such (which is apparently the case).
> 
> https://www.egscomics.com/comic/balance-175
> 
> "Our system of magic hasn't provided much in the way of healing." -- Edward basically admits he has never even heard of any spell that is actually useful for healing. Which is why he was so eager to learn that he sliced his own palm. So he cast a spell that he just learned, knowing about it only what the griffins told him. There's no way he can be a professional healer since it's literally his first time ever practicing a form of magic that he didn't even know existed.


Oh right, I forgot he just learned that spell. My bad, carry on.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Essentially, the spell healed all the superficial effects of a burnout, but it obviously did not replenish the energy and such.


Not quite, with the additional knowledge we have about burnout magic energy buildup it's clear that it primarily prohibits casting spells and makes using your energy on wands weird. The spell has cured the primary effects of the burnout, but hasn't made any difference to the other consequences.

Basically Elliot just cast a spell while at 0MP.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

I'm pretty sure the only reason he's even casting it now is to get the details for how it really works from Tedd's seer powers.

----------


## Windscion

Confusion. What is shadow Elliot doing pouring scorn on Elliot? Has Elliot's magic created an evil alter ego hiding in his subconcious?

----------


## WanderingMist

> Confusion. What is shadow Elliot doing pouring scorn on Elliot? Has Elliot's magic created an evil alter ego hiding in his subconscious?


Possibly, but I think that's just Elliot's regular subconscious beating himself up over what happened.

----------


## Kish

If there are actual consequences at all for using the villain spell, I'll be happy.

(And surprised.)

----------


## Fyraltari

Oh no. Could Elliot be turning evil. I am super worried that might happen.

*Yawns*

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Maybe this is Elliots inner demons finally turning up!

Unlikely, but hey, this is clearly a return of Dan's original 'Elliot crazy powerful form' idea.

----------


## Pax1138

Nothing like more Elliot variants running around!

----------


## Vinyadan

> Nothing like more Elliot variants running around!


So we have Elliot, Girl Beta Elliot, Ellen Elliot, Ellen Elliot that's actually Ellen, Dreamworld Ellen Elliot Ellen, Male Ellen Magus Elliot, Sillhouetted Old Haircut Inner Elliot... :Small Cool:

----------


## Windscion

> If there are actual consequences at all for using the villain spell, I'll be happy.
> 
> (And surprised.)


The emissary did warn that it was a bad trade? Wait and see, I guess.
Add: Also, the shadow's pose reminds me of Magnus.

----------


## Gez

Dun dun dunnnnnn!

These guys seem very dogmatic and ambitious. I dunno, I don't have much trust people who go "rulers are bad, therefore I should be the ruler", generally history shows that they just want to be bad.

----------


## Rater202

Well, a least we know that they're operating on a flawed assumption.

----------


## Gnoman

The line in the exact center of the page "Tyrants from the shadows..." is also incredibly ominous. The notion that somebody with strength _will_ use it to control everything is not a healthy one. It can be best summed up with the old phrase "Power corrupts, and absolute power is actually pretty nice".

----------


## sihnfahl

> These guys seem very dogmatic and ambitious. I dunno, I don't have much trust people who go "rulers are bad, therefore I should be the ruler", generally history shows that they just want to be bad.


From the silhouette and declaration they can be royalty, I'm thinking they're at least a Human-Uryom hybrid, if not more.

Given the status of Uryom on the other side of the portal...

----------


## Windscion

Seriously: It sounds like one of the 'visitors' is the ugly unicorn horse from the EGSNP Parable.
Jokingly: If that cat following what I assume is Sarah is actually a seyunolu, then I am thinking "Alfiq! We have a confirmed Alfiq!"
Chiming in: Yes these seem dogmatic types. The characters shown (Nanase, Edward, Rhoda, Luke) are all quite innocuous. But behind them are people like Arthur and Bishop, who are pretty darn "pragmatic".

----------


## WanderingMist

> Dun dun dunnnnnn!
> 
> These guys seem very dogmatic and ambitious. I dunno, I don't have much trust people who go "rulers are bad, therefore I should be the ruler", generally history shows that they just want to be bad.


While there's definitely something off about them, the figure very specifically did not say "I will be the new ruler", only "I will make them listen", which could arguably be more dangerous.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

well it kind of sounds like mystery person needs to be a royalty in order to get a vote or an audience to represent their oppressed people or something? I'm guessing there's never been an uryuom royalty before, which is why they have fewer rights in their world.

----------


## Fyraltari

Oh great. Politics...

----------


## WanderingMist

Hey, what are the chances this mystery Uryuom is either William or his wife, whose name I can't remember because all I can think of is Gillian Anderson and I know that's not right?

----------


## Rater202

> Hey, what are the chances this mystery Uryuom is either William or his wife, whose name I can't remember because all I can think of is Gillian Anderson and I know that's not right?


Will and Gill.

And... Honestly, it doesn't really fit given that they're, as far as I know, from our side.

Like, they said quite explicitly that they were born on American soil when telling Eliot that they weren't technically aliens.

----------


## Radar

> Will and Gill.
> 
> And... Honestly, it doesn't really fit given that they're, as far as I know, from our side.
> 
> Like, they said quite explicitly that they were born on American soil when telling Eliot that they weren't technically aliens.


Also, they are far too chill for this kind of mindset being presented about royalty. And they are already on Earth-side of the universe, so they would not need to sneak through the gate.

----------


## Rater202

Also I went back and reread Parable and that Unicorn is clearly a greater chimera.

----------


## WanderingMist

> Also, they are far too chill for this kind of mindset being presented about royalty. And they are already on Earth-side of the universe, so they would not need to sneak through the gate.


The perfect cover!

----------


## Rater202

So apparently Dan was listening to It Has To Be This Way from MGRR yesterday afternoon while thinking of future story stuff.

Best case scenario, Parody NP.

Worst case scenario, Tedd and Bishop in a duel to the death.

----------


## Gez

> While there's definitely something off about them, the figure very specifically did not say "I will be the new ruler", only "I will make them listen", which could arguably be more dangerous.


Like, they know that royal auras mean nothing on the "Earth side", but they assume that it does anyway, and that makes people with such auras even worse. Clearly, they're psyching themselves up to do something reprehensible, and they know it. That's why I call them dogmatic, this stubborn adherence to belief that overrides their conscience.

Given what they say about "being a voice the others can't ignore", I'd bet on some aura-stealing shenanigans. They're gonna hunt people with royal auras to give themselves a super royal aura. Then go back home and be all "I've got the biggest aura so I'm the king now".

----------


## WanderingMist

> Like, they know that royal auras mean nothing on the "Earth side", but they assume that it does anyway, and that makes people with such auras even worse. Clearly, they're psyching themselves up to do something reprehensible, and they know it. That's why I call them dogmatic, this stubborn adherence to belief that overrides their conscience.
> 
> Given what they say about "being a voice the others can't ignore", I'd bet on some aura-stealing shenanigans. They're gonna hunt people with royal auras to give themselves a super royal aura. Then go back home and be all "I've got the biggest aura so I'm the king now".


Except, we've got that one panel where it says "no one wants you to be in charge of anything". If I were to make my own bet, I'd put it on them stealing a royal aura for the Uryuom, thus "proving" that they can be royalty too, since only humans supposedly have it on the other side. Remember what Dwight's reaction to Virginia was. Immediate suspicion and distrust despite her not having done anything, simply because she was an Uryuom. And if they can make humans think Uryuoms can be royalty as well, the humans may have to start also considering griffins and whatever other intelligent races exist on their side as having the capability of being royal as well. Or possibly that magic wand scale thing will make it so _everyone_ on their side has a royal aura, forcing everyone to view each other as equals.

----------


## Kish

> Hey, what are the chances this mystery Uryuom is either William or his wife, whose name I can't remember because all I can think of is Gillian Anderson and I know that's not right?


Gillian is right. It's not a name unique to Gillian Anderson, any more than William is a name unique to William the Prince of Wales. (Sorry for the comparison there, William the uryoum.)

And as other people have said, the chance that it's either of them is negligible.

Given that the shadowed characters have been portrayed at all sympathetically so far, I am sure they will never do anything reprehensible. This comic's a lot more...Manichean than that. (And for starters, it highlights--actually without Dan feeling the need to tap on that fact with a pointer this time--that looking for rich and powerful people will not bring them to Nanase, nor Rhoda, nor Edward.)

----------


## Rater202

I can't help but note that they mention heritage as being part of having a royal aura.

I'm wondering if Immortal Ancestry is part of it.

Of our three confirmed royals two are confirmed to have Immortal ancestors and one has a strong magical affinity and strong affinities are known to potentially come from immortal ancestry.

Diane not pegging as Royal would simply come down to not being particularly powerful.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Of course royal auras are related to immortals! Everything magical leads back to immortals one way or another! I'm sure I'll eventually be revealed that immortals are the baby form of both the Will of Magic and the Whales!

Diane not having a royal aura can be explained two ways: 1) we know that you need to develop your magic/aura beyond human baseline for it to be noticeable, and 2) aura shapes, like inborn affinities, might vary with different ancestors. If #2 is correct we don't know what aura shape  Pandora grants, but I'm guessing it would be more sword-shaped.

----------


## Fyraltari

About the NP, they already agreed to use their actual names, why would playing the opposite gender change that? Some players using character names while others don'y would just be confusing.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> About the NP, they already agreed to use their actual names, why would playing the opposite gender change that? Some players using character names while others don'y would just be confusing.


Names have masculine and feminine forms, so Ellen might simply be asking if he wants her to use the feminine form. Which George doesn't want but it appears Larry might.

To be fair, in the Anglosphere George is a more acceptable feminine name than Larry. Although the big example I can think of would be read as a trans boy if published these days (George from the Famous Five).

----------


## Kish

Go with Larissa, Larry.

----------


## Fyraltari

*Spoiler: Today's NP*
Show

Did somebody get that Nanase's character was meant to be an _isekai_ protagonist without the commentary spelling it out?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *Spoiler: Today's NP*
> Show
> 
> Did somebody get that Nanase's character was meant to be an _isekai_ protagonist without the commentary spelling it out?


Portal. Fantasy. Isekai is a terrible anglosphere term for the genre because it gives no information on what it is without knowing a specific second language. As far as most people are concerned Isekai could just as easily mean 'lighthearted romantic comedy with sixteen competing heroines'.

Also, nope. I thought 'sheltered aristocrat'.

----------


## Gez

> Portal. Fantasy. Isekai is a terrible anglosphere term for the genre because it gives no information on what it is without knowing a specific second language.


The same could be said about pretty much anything else that's not named in English. Like "shonen" or even "anime".

There's some stuff typical of isekai that are not necessarily present in general fantasy. Even otherworld fantasy like, say, Narnia, where the kids can go back to their home world whenever they want through the wardrobe portal. In isekai, the character dies at the start of the story and is "respawned" in another world, generally one with some game-like aspect that they will be able to cheese so as to become super-powerful, or at least that's what I've gotten out of my limited exposure to the genre.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> The same could be said about pretty much anything else that's not named in English. Like "shonen" or even "anime".
> 
> There's some stuff typical of isekai that are not necessarily present in general fantasy. Even otherworld fantasy like, say, Narnia, where the kids can go back to their home world whenever they want through the wardrobe portal. In isekai, the character dies at the start of the story and is "respawned" in another world, generally one with some game-like aspect that they will be able to cheese so as to become super-powerful, or at least that's what I've gotten out of my limited exposure to the genre.


Your example of Isekai being different doesn't even apply to all (Japanese) Isekai, bypassing Sword Art Online for people who'll complain about including it Gate springs to mind. Heck if you remove the 'game like aspect' part it's not a bad description of how entering the Land works in Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (although Covenant has little desire to work out how to use his abilities, let alone exploit them).

Also yeah, Shounen and Anime are kind of weird ways to categorise works. We don't have a special word for French cartoons, and don't tend to use the target audience as the defining characteristic of other genres.

----------


## Fyraltari

> We don't have a special word for French cartoons.


You could use the French word for them: _dessin animé_. It's a bit long of course, so you would probably shorten it. "_Animé_" has a nice ring to it.
 :Small Tongue:

----------


## Vinyadan

> Portal. Fantasy. Isekai is a terrible anglosphere term for the genre because it gives no information on what it is without knowing a specific second language. As far as most people are concerned Isekai could just as easily mean 'lighthearted romantic comedy with sixteen competing heroines'.
> 
> Also, nope. I thought 'sheltered aristocrat'.


Not strictly related, but this talk of isekai reminded me of this picture: https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88...VomO2D90Jcu_9s

----------


## Celestia

> Portal. Fantasy. Isekai is a terrible anglosphere term for the genre because it gives no information on what it is without knowing a specific second language. As far as most people are concerned Isekai could just as easily mean 'lighthearted romantic comedy with sixteen competing heroines'.
> 
> Also, nope. I thought 'sheltered aristocrat'.


Maybe I'm just not understanding this post, but are you complaining about a loan word? In _English?_ Because that's hilarious. Half our language is loan words.

----------


## DavidSh

I figured the character was from a different world, without magic or monsters, but didn't get the concern about stairs until I read the author's notes.  I think the only Japanese portal fantasy I know that involves the characters dying in their home worlds is _Haibane Renmei_, while I know several that just involve various sorts of magical summoning.

----------


## Lord Raziere

> *Spoiler: Today's NP*
> Show
> 
> Did somebody get that Nanase's character was meant to be an _isekai_ protagonist without the commentary spelling it out?


*Spoiler*
Show

I read this thread first, so I can't say.

Can't really say the stairs things really connects to isekai for me though. if she said "I excessively check both ways to see if any carriages passing by before crossing the road" that would be much more indicative of being hit by Truck-Kun and thus isekai. the being surprised by supernatural stuff could have a lot of explanations, to be honest.

----------


## Taevyr

> *Spoiler: Today's NP*
> Show
> 
> Did somebody get that Nanase's character was meant to be an _isekai_ protagonist without the commentary spelling it out?


*Spoiler*
Show

Had no clue until I read the commentary. I simply thought it was a formerly-overtly sheltered kid or the like.

----------


## mucat

> *Spoiler: Today's NP*
> Show
> 
> Did somebody get that Nanase's character was meant to be an _isekai_ protagonist without the commentary spelling it out?


*Spoiler*
Show

I did, but only because I'd kind of figured that's what Ellen was hinting at back on Sept. 8, with "What if not knowing how anything works were part of your character?"  I'd actually hoped I was wrong, since I find it a silly gimmick to give to one character in an otherwise grounded-in-world party, but the earlier guess did make the most recent strip clear right away.  And I grant that they're playing a casual enough game that a silly character background isn't gonna be a real problem.

----------


## Rater202

A thing I'm noticing in the mos recent story comic is that Nanase is very clearly being chastised.

I don't know for sure that it's Mama Kitsune but... All we saw of Nanase in this arc was her mentioning that she was Voluntold to babysit her paternal cousins.

No evidence that she did anything wrong, and she has such a _done_ look on her face.

Given that Pappa Kitsune is either apathetic or overindulgent the only times we see him it's not him, and we don't know about the other aunt and uncle which raises the question of...

It's most likely Mama Kitsune and I find myself wondering just when we're finally going to get the confrontation between her and Nanase over her toxic behavior. The longer this gets drawn out the worst the inevitable blow-up will be when it comes to a head.

This is the kind of thing that needs to happen before Nanase goes off to college.

----------


## Pax1138

Not I.  I guess that something specific was supposed to be up, considering George's reaction, but hadn't put it together.  I figured she was just copying a character from something I didn't recognise.  I also didn't spend much time thinking about it before jumping down to the commentary, though.

Edit: Oh hey, an entire additional page, whoops!  This was in response to whether we understood Nanase's character.

----------


## Aeson

> Maybe I'm just not understanding this post, but are you complaining about a loan word? In _English?_ Because that's hilarious. Half our language is loan words.


The problem, I think, isnt so much that its a loan word as that its jargon or niche slang - its essentially meaningless outside of the group of people familiar with genres of Japanese animation or whatever it is that isekai is from.

----------


## Celestia

> The problem, I think, isnt so much that its a loan word as that its jargon or niche slang - its essentially meaningless outside of the group of people familiar with genres of Japanese animation or whatever it is that isekai is from.


Okay? English still has lots of those, and this one is more reasonable than most because it describes a thing that English has no other word for. Also, in this day and age, it is entirely fair to assume that young people on the internet are familiar with anime. Calling anime slang "niche" may be accurate to society at large, but online, that's a pretty ridiculous assertion.

----------


## Aeson

> Okay? English still has lots of those, and this one is more reasonable than most because it describes a thing that English has no other word for. Also, in this day and age, it is entirely fair to assume that young people on the internet are familiar with anime. Calling anime slang "niche" may be accurate to society at large, but online, that's a pretty ridiculous assertion.


1. I rather suspect that young people on the internet familiar enough with Japanese animation genres to know what isekai is is a much smaller subset of young people on the internet than you seem to think it is, particularly since someone up-thread indicated that isekai is a distinct form of portal fantasy from something like _Chronicles of Narnia_.

2. Using jargon or slang - _especially_ niche slang - outside of the group that uses it is simply bad communication and it is entirely reasonable to criticize someone for doing it.

----------


## Windscion

Considering that the main characters used to study at Anime-Style Martial Arts, expecting familiarity with related terms isn't a huge social sin.

----------


## Rater202

Guys? Dan explained what it was in the commentary.

----------


## Lord Raziere

I legit hear the word isekai more than I ever had heard the term "portal fantasy". I even remember getting annoyed at people memeing about how things unrelated to the genre being an isekai. portal fantasy sounds like some academic literature student/professor term that only they use because academia insists on having their own jargon for things to sound smart and sophisticated. everyone not in those two groups probably either says "they got Narnia'd" as a joke or isn't even aware of the cliche as a term and just says "y'know those fairy tale stories where people go into another world and do stuff?"

----------


## KillianHawkeye

I mean, most of them don't even involve a literal portal. Not even all the Narnia books did.

----------


## Celestia

> 1. I rather suspect that young people on the internet familiar enough with Japanese animation genres to know what isekai is is a much smaller subset of young people on the internet than you seem to think it is, ...


Doubt. According to surveys conducted by Crunchyroll's Director of Content Strategy, 73% of Gen Y and 94% of Gen Z are familiar with anime.




> ... particularly since someone up-thread indicated that isekai is a distinct form of portal fantasy from something like _Chronicles of Narnia_.


Ignore that. Such a hyper specific definition of isekai is peddled by only the weebiest of weebs and is absolute nonsense as it discounts a vast majority of animes that Japan, itself, considers isekai, including the anime that solely fathered the modern isekai boom: Sword Art Online. Isekai is any story where a character gets transported to another world. Narnia is isekai.




> 2. Using jargon or slang - _especially_ niche slang - outside of the group that uses it is simply bad communication and it is entirely reasonable to criticize someone for doing it.


A webcomic that is drawn in a heavily anime-inspired style and that has made explicit anime references from the very beginning of its run is hardly "outside" the anime fan sphere.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> The problem, I think, isnt so much that its a loan word as that its jargon or niche slang - its essentially meaningless outside of the group of people familiar with genres of Japanese animation or whatever it is that isekai is from.


This, combined with the fact that there were already less obtuse terms for it. I'll admit that 'portal fantasy' isn't exactly the clearest, but I do like therm somebody used upthread of 'otherworld fantasy'.

I'm also highly suspicious on any 'do you know what anime is' polls conducted by an anime site. I also question whether knowing what anime is is enough to know what Shounen, Isekai, or other genre and target audience terms mean. There's a difference between knowing what anime is and being an anime fan. Hell, I bet there's a not insignificant number of anime fans who don't know what hentai is.


Now if people were using it to refer to the specific reincarnation style that anime popularised I'd have less issues (partially because IME afterlife fantasy is significantly less common). Partially because the specific term I know of, 'bangsian fantasy' is just as obtuse.

----------


## Aeson

> I'm also highly suspicious on any 'do you know what anime is' polls conducted by an anime site. I also question whether knowing what anime is is enough to know what Shounen, Isekai, or other genre and target audience terms mean. There's a difference between knowing what anime is and being an anime fan. Hell, I bet there's a not insignificant number of anime fans who don't know what hentai is.


More to the point, it sounds like this is a market survey, so familiar with anime probably doesnt mean anything more than has heard the term, knows it refers to a style of animation, and thinks they would recognize it when they see it. Someone who watched a bit of the Pokemon TV show 20+ years ago, knows that thats an example of anime, and hasnt  watched anime since is probably familiar with anime as far as that survey is concerned, because when a market survey asks are you familiar with _, what they mean is are you aware that youve encountered it, and do you think you recognize it?

----------


## WanderingMist

> Ignore that. Such a hyper specific definition of isekai is peddled by only the weebiest of weebs and is absolute nonsense as it discounts a vast majority of animes that Japan, itself, considers isekai, including the anime that solely fathered the modern isekai boom: Sword Art Online. Isekai is any story where a character gets transported to another world. Narnia is isekai.


No, "isekai" is definitely a narrower term than you're trying to imply. By your definition, _Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid_ and _Ah! My Goddess!_ would be isekai, since they involve characters from another world coming to Earth, but no one in their right minds would classify them that way. More importantly, just because Japan defines it a certain way doesn't mean that's what the word means in English. After all, Japan calls Western animation and comics "anime" and "manga" respectively as well and doesn't see a reason to separate them the way English does. The English definition of "isekai" is generally "protagonist gets transported to another world and is overpowered". So, while Narnia fits the Japanese definition of "isekai", it does not fit the English one, as the children are not overpowered.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

I mean, somewhere between Father Christmas and the lion they might as well become overpowered. Plus by Prince Caspian Susan is pretty much the best archer in the world and Peter can duel fully grown men despite being like 12.

It gets ratcheted down though when those two leave, while Jill is more competent in The Last Battle than in The Silver Chair it's got nothing to do with the otherworld.

----------


## Celestia

> No, "isekai" is definitely a narrower term than you're trying to imply. By your definition, _Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid_ and _Ah! My Goddess!_ would be isekai, since they involve characters from another world coming to Earth, but no one in their right minds would classify them that way. More importantly, just because Japan defines it a certain way doesn't mean that's what the word means in English. After all, Japan calls Western animation and comics "anime" and "manga" respectively as well and doesn't see a reason to separate them the way English does. The English definition of "isekai" is generally "protagonist gets transported to another world and is overpowered". So, while Narnia fits the Japanese definition of "isekai", it does not fit the English one, as the children are not overpowered.


New York Public Library: "Isekai is a subgenre of fantasy in which a character is suddenly transported from their world into a new or unfamiliar one. The western world is no stranger to this concept as it appears in well-known works of western literature such as Lewis Carrolls _Alice in Wonderland_, Frank L. Baums _The Wizard of Oz_, and even J. M. Barries _Peter Pan_."

Yes, Dragon Maid and Ah! are isekai. Technically, they are reverse isekai.

----------


## DavidSh

> New York Public Library: "Isekai is a subgenre of fantasy in which a character is suddenly transported from their world into a new or unfamiliar one. The western world is no stranger to this concept as it appears in well-known works of western literature such as Lewis Carrolls _Alice in Wonderland_, Frank L. Baums _The Wizard of Oz_, and even J. M. Barries _Peter Pan_."
> 
> Yes, Dragon Maid and Ah! are isekai. Technically, they are reverse isekai.


"is suddenly transported" has connotations of "involuntary" and "without warning", neither of which, if I recall correctly (my copies of Ah-Megami-Sama being in storage at the moment), applies to Belldandy's arrival in Japan, which was part of the usual course of her employment.  What was unusual was Keiichi's wish, which kept her from returning home.

----------


## Celestia

> "is suddenly transported" has connotations of "involuntary" and "without warning", neither of which, if I recall correctly (my copies of Ah-Megami-Sama being in storage at the moment), applies to Belldandy's arrival in Japan, which was part of the usual course of her employment.  What was unusual was Keiichi's wish, which kept her from returning home.


Wow. You're really stretching, aren't you? It's a shame there's no Olympic event for mental gymnastics.

----------


## DavidSh

> Wow. You're really stretching, aren't you? It's a shame there's no Olympic event for mental gymnastics.


No, I don't think so.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> my copies of Ah-Megami-Sama


To illustrate my point somewhat, I literally thought this was a relatively new series. It was only after seeing the character name and plot point I realised that no, somebody's just being a cleverclogs and not using the commonly used official English Title. (Although I think I would have got either Ah! My Goddess or Oh! My Goddess.)

Yeah, I hate that practice as well. I'll admit sometimes they change a perfectly functional name for no reason, like when they renamed Alchemist of Steel, but the added confusion is not worth it.

Now if you'll excuse me I think I might watch some Dokutâ Fû.

----------


## DavidSh

> To illustrate my point somewhat, I literally thought this was a relatively new series. It was only after seeing the character name and plot point I realised that no, somebody's just being a cleverclogs and not using the commonly used official English Title. (Although I think I would have got either Ah! My Goddess or Oh! My Goddess.)
> 
> Yeah, I hate that practice as well. I'll admit sometimes they change a perfectly functional name for no reason, like when they renamed Alchemist of Steel, but the added confusion is not worth it.


My apologies.  I was thinking of the few Japanese volumes I picked up on my one visit to Japan.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Something being sudden is a matter of perspective. Something can happen suddenly from the viewpoint of the audience but not be sudden to the person performing the action (like Gandalf arriving with reinforcements to turn the tide at the battle of Helm's Deep).

Anyway, IMO the protagonist of an Isekai story doesn't NEED to be an overpowered badass in the world they find themselves in, even if that is a fairly common trope within the genre. To call it a requirement is being unnecessarily narrow.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Moving on to some other things.

Yeah, Rich isn't being as disruptive as he thinks he is. George being half-demon might cause issues, but there's nothing inherently immoral about any of the other characters' skill sets. Sure, many rogue skills lend themselves to theiveru or spying, but they're also suited to being scouts and investigators.

Plus the worst Larissa will do is try to sleep with Rich.

----------


## Fyraltari

That's kind of the problem with making a cooperative game into a challenge. How much challenge is too much? How do you even measure success?




> Plus the worst Larissa will do is try to sleep with Rich.


That's really not something he needs to worry about.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> That's kind of the problem with making a cooperative game into a challenge. How much challenge is too much? How do you even measure success?


Yeah, especially as Rich and Ellen clearly have different GMing styles (Rich is more rules focused, Ellen is more improvisational.




> That's really not something he needs to worry about.


Oh sure, but you know that's exactly how Larry would play a female bard. He's going to be more mature about it than Rich would, but that's not saying much.

----------


## Vahnavoi

> That's kind of the problem with making a cooperative game into a challenge. How much challenge is too much? How do you even measure success?


You measure success by emotional reaction of who you're challenging, you're succeeding as long as their reactions stay in the positive.

It's not rocket science.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> You measure success by emotional reaction of who you're challenging, you're succeeding as long as their reactions stay in the positive.
> 
> It's not rocket science.


Could you perhaps explain how exactly this metric could be applied to the current situation? Rich believes that Ellen isn't as good a GM as she thinks she is, and is trying to be challenging to prove that. I don't see why Ellen having a positive emotional reaction would mean that he has succeeded.

----------


## Kish

Well, sure. He's not actually trying to challenge; he's trying to undermine while maintaining sufficient plausible deniability that George doesn't pound him and Nanase doesn't look at him like he's a humanoid cockroach.

Also, I think objecting to Nanase--who is Japanese-American--using the term "isekai" would be goofy, but complaining about one of Dan's extremely gratuitous explanations using it is worse.

Also, I don't know if Fyraltari knows that Larry is going to have his character hit on Rich's character (or otherwise be sexually promiscuous, should that be what's actually encoded in "that's exactly how Larry would play a female bard"), but I am highly doubtful myself.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Oh sure, but you know that's exactly how Larry would play a female bard. He's going to be more mature about it than Rich would, but that's not saying much.


I really doubt that Larry would have his character hit on characters played by men while Rich is in the room. Also, he's intimidated by Nanase.

In-character flirting is something that can very easily be awkward or come off as creepy if you're not sure everybody at the table is cool with it and Larry's one big story so far was him learning that it's not okay to flirt with strangers during competitions (this being a challenge is sort of like a competition, in that somebody walking out is basically just making Ellen lose immediately) so I doubt he'll do much flirting.

----------


## Rater202

...So a thought occurred to me.

If Edward is marrying Lavender, and the goal is for her to be a part of the family before the kids leave for college, the actual wedding probably isn't going to be far off.

So uh... By the laws of Awkwardness, the lead-up to the wedding would be the most likely time for Noriko to have an in-person appearance. Almost certainly by coincidence, but... Yeah. Make an awkward and emotional time for everyone even more awkward and emotional.

----------


## Radar

> ...So a thought occurred to me.
> 
> If Edward is marrying Lavender, and the goal is for her to be a part of the family before the kids leave for college, the actual wedding probably isn't going to be far off.
> 
> So uh... By the laws of Awkwardness, the lead-up to the wedding would be the most likely time for Noriko to have an in-person appearance. Almost certainly by coincidence, but... Yeah. Make an awkward and emotional time for everyone even more awkward and emotional.


Lavender is moving in, but I do not think there was a set time for the wedding. The goal was for everyone to have time getting to know each other.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Lavender is moving in, but I do not think there was a set time for the wedding. The goal was for everyone to have time getting to know each other.


Yeah, I've known people to be engaged for six weeks, and others for six years.


Also what's going to be more interesting than Noriko showing up is _Van_ showing up.

----------


## Rater202

> Yeah, I've known people to be engaged for six weeks, and others for six years.
> 
> 
> Also what's going to be more interesting than Noriko showing up is _Van_ showing up.


Van is like, eight. He's not showing up without a parent or guardian.

Granted, "Mum, the Will of Magic told me that I have an older sister"
"You don't"
"Her name is Tedd."
"...What the hell has been going on since I left?"

Would be as good a reason for Noriko to show up as ever.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Van is like, eight. He's not showing up without a parent or guardian.
> 
> Granted, "Mum, the Will of Magic told me that I have an older sister"
> "You don't"
> "Her name is Tedd."
> "...What the hell has been going on since I left?"
> 
> Would be as good a reason for Noriko to show up as ever.


Presumably, if Noriko is invited, she'll bring Van. That is how he would show up.

----------


## Rater202

The current storyline is named Brother.

It's not a multi-arc storyline of Doom... Techncially, but...

Known brothers in the series.

Grace's.

Ellen's.

...Tedd's

Now, the focus on Diane first could mean that Raven has more kids than he know about, but... Oh boy.

I really don't think that this is gonna be about Elliot. And if it was about Grace's brothers I don't think the title would be in the singular.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

The timeline hasn't moved forward in, what, two years?

And now we're moving backwards.

I look forward to 2028, where we need a multiple month period in the Jurassic to put the story in its proper context.

----------


## Vinyadan

> The current storyline is named Brother.


Personally, I was thinking of Magus. Van also sounds interesting, however. But this starting out with Diane, who is Raven's daughter, it could be about her and Noah. All three would be interesting to me.

----------


## Rater202

> Personally, I was thinking of Magus. Van also sounds interesting, however. But this starting out with Diane, who is Raven's daughter, it could be about her and Noah. All three would be interesting to me.


Oh, crap, I didn't even think about Noah.

...It's not Magus though. Magus presents himself as Ellen's "father" and as I recall she considers him a deadbeat.

----------


## Maat Mons

What's wrong with one guy being both your father and brother?

----------


## Celestia

> What's wrong with one guy being both your father and brother?


Sweet home Alabama?

----------


## DavidSh

> Sweet home Alabama?


Even with incest, I think it either would require a "half-" or "step-" somewhere in there, or time travel.  As in the story of the person who was both his own father and his own mother, courtesy of convoluted time travel and a fully functional sex change.

----------


## Celestia

> Even with incest, I think it either would require a "half-" or "step-" somewhere in there, or time travel.  As in the story of the person who was both his own father and his own mother, courtesy of convoluted time travel and a fully functional sex change.


No, this would just require a guy to make a baby with his mom. Then the kid would be his child, making him the dad, and the child of his mom, making him the brother.

----------


## Fyraltari

> No, this would just require a guy to make a baby with his mom. Then the kid would be his child, making him the dad, and the child of his mom, making him the brother.


The children would have the same mother and two different fathers though, making them half-siblings.

----------


## Gez

> Even with incest, I think it either would require a "half-" or "step-" somewhere in there, or time travel.  As in the story of the person who was both his own father and his own mother, courtesy of convoluted time travel and a fully functional sex change.


_All You Zombies_ by Robert Heinlein.

----------


## Windscion

I like Noah. More Noah please.

----------


## Lord Raziere

honestly Nanase's thought bubbles about plot hooks and herding cats are completely 100% accurate. she nailed the experience dead on.

----------


## Pax1138

The experience of roleplaying does seem spot on, but I think I have a different definition of "off the rails" then Dan.  He seems to consider it as "on rails" means being railroaded by the GM to do exactly what he wants, and "off the rails" being players just having the freedom to do whatever.  While do I agree with the first part, to me, "off the rails" means the game has jumped the track and oh god it's gone off the side of the mountain and tumbling oh god its on fire oh the humanity!

Maybe that's just me and my games.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> the game has jumped the track and oh god it's gone off the side of the mountain and tumbling oh god its on fire oh the humanity!


Sounds like a typical game day to me!  :Small Amused:

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> The experience of roleplaying does seem spot on, but I think I have a different definition of "off the rails" then Dan.  He seems to consider it as "on rails" means being railroaded by the GM to do exactly what he wants, and "off the rails" being players just having the freedom to do whatever.  While do I agree with the first part, to me, "off the rails" means the game has jumped the track and oh god it's gone off the side of the mountain and tumbling oh god its on fire oh the humanity!
> 
> Maybe that's just me and my games.


Look, I remember the days where having an adventure was considered railroading*, and most self insert OCs were half-vampyre half-japanesd catgirls with yellow eyes, purple hair, and at least one katana. I don't think it's unreasonable for Dan's idea of 'off the rails' to come from that time.

But yes, if nothing's on fire the players are being unusually cooperative (or I've specifically not given them flamethrowers, which is more likely). I personally like my characters to pack a high-output energy weapon and a hand dynamo in case I really need to upset a plot.

* Almost exclusively in jest.

----------


## Windscion

Yay! More Noah.
Like a good brother, he wants to protect his sister.
(I imagine Noah knows that Diane is Raven's daughter. I assume Diane has no clue about Noah whatsoever.)

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> I imagine Noah knows that Diane is Raven's daughter.


Do you think so? Not much time has passed, and I imagine Raven is struggling to find the right way to deal with it as much as Diane is right now. Especially while also dealing with his feelings towards Pandora.

Telling Noah might not be his top priority yet, is all I'm saying.

----------


## Windscion

> Do you think so? Not much time has passed, and I imagine Raven is struggling to find the right way to deal with it as much as Diane is right now. Especially while also dealing with his feelings towards Pandora.
> 
> Telling Noah might not be his top priority yet, is all I'm saying.


They go to the same school, and just in case why not have Noah be alert that Diane's safety is a priority? That's my thinking, tho of course it might be otherwise. And frankly Noah might've just picked up on stuff without really knowing exactly what.

Plus Sarah had a talk with Adrian and Noah is a good spy.

Assuming you're right, tho? Noah is also friends with Melissa, who was pretty broken and he may simply have an instinctive draw toward trauma. (I defend the word trauma here because Diane is wondering what sort of future she has, and "am I ... not human?".)

----------


## WanderingMist

> Do you think so? Not much time has passed, and I imagine Raven is struggling to find the right way to deal with it as much as Diane is right now. Especially while also dealing with his feelings towards Pandora.
> 
> Telling Noah might not be his top priority yet, is all I'm saying.


But...Noah knows that Pandora is dead. And the only way he could know that is if Raven told him. Somehow I doubt Raven would leave out the bit about having a daughter when telling him that. Unless he was at the mall, in which case he would also already know Diane was Raven's daughter anyway.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> But...Noah knows that Pandora is dead. And the only way he could know that is if Raven told him. Somehow I doubt Raven would leave out the bit about having a daughter when telling him that. Unless he was at the mall, in which case he would also already know Diane was Raven's daughter anyway.


We don't know exactly what Noah's deal is, so I'd be hesitant to say that there's no way he could know one thing without also knowing another.

----------


## Rater202

...What if Noah's parents were from the other side of the World and one of them was Royalty?

Or, since we can infer that his parents were part of the group that created Damien, what if Noah himself was an attempt to make a Chimera who would register as Royalty? On review, Noah's biological father is explicitly part of the group that created Damien, Noah ever met his biological mother.

In the New and Old Flames arc, he refers to Raven as "Sir Raven" with the justification that "I knighted you."

And if he is, or ids descended from, Royalty that might explain why he felt he had the authority to knight someone.

----------


## Gez

> ...What if Noah's parents were from the other side of the World and one of them was Royalty?
> 
> Or, since we can infer that his parents were part of the group that created Damien, what if Noah himself was an attempt to make a Chimera who would register as Royalty? On review, Noah's biological father is explicitly part of the group that created Damien, Noah ever met his biological mother.
> 
> In the New and Old Flames arc, he refers to Raven as "Sir Raven" with the justification that "I knighted you."
> 
> And if he is, or ids descended from, Royalty that might explain why he felt he had the authority to knight someone.


I'd rather read that as Cute Child Antics than as Weird Plot Twist Foreshadowing, but maybe that's just me.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I'd rather read that as Cute Child Antics than as Weird Plot Twist Foreshadowing, but maybe that's just me.


I think it'd have come up before if Raven knew about the other side of the world.

----------


## Rater202

> I think it'd have come up before if Raven knew about the other side of the world.


He doesn't have to.

If I'm right, then *Noah* doesn't even have to know about the other side of the world, he just has to know that he, or at least a parent, is "royalty."

----------


## InvisibleBison

> He doesn't have to.
> 
> If I'm right, then *Noah* doesn't even have to know about the other side of the world, he just has to know that he, or at least a parent, is "royalty."


How do you reconcile this theory with Raven claiming Noah doesn't have the authority to knight people?

----------


## Fyraltari

I don't think being of royal lineage alone gives you authority to knight anyone. Especially if you live in a country ithout monarchs and knights.

----------


## Gez

> I don't think being of royal lineage alone gives you authority to knight anyone. Especially if you live in a country ithout monarchs and knights.


Plus like technically just about everyone of European descent has Charlemagne as one of their ancestors. Among other kings. Same goes for other people, too. Everyone is of royal lineage, if you go back long enough!
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/s...versal-royalty

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> I don't think being of royal lineage alone gives you authority to knight anyone. Especially if you live in a country ithout monarchs and knights.


I think depending on era and specific country you have to be either a knight or the reigning monarch. In the modern UK system the power is held by the monarch but the process and potentially the power can be delegated, in practice they don't actually choose who gets honours.

Also on the idea of Raven, note that he expresses a desire to serve his country, and thus likely rejects the title of Sir Adrian due to not feeling like he's earned it as much as it not being correct. Even if he was a knight (which considering his age* and country of birth is not strictly out of the question) he might just not wish to be called sir, like Sir Ridley Scott. Or he might have been knighted under another name, like Michael Caine. In the more likely case that he isn't a knight he might accept being referred to as 'Sir' in his capacity as a teacher, but not 'Sir Adrian'.

It's even possible that he has a Lordship, Blake seems like the type to have possessed one .

As a side note, even if Noah DOES have the authority to knight people he's still addressing Raven incorrectly. It's 'Sir Adrian' or 'Sir Adrian' Raven', but never 'Sir Raven'. But I'm cutting Dan some slack for this, when Dame Tara was introduced he basically admitted he doesn't know a ton about knighthood, and he might have even intentionally had Noah get it wrong 

* He has a LOT of unspecified past that could include the requisite public service. He technically doesn't state he's not been knighted, just that Noah can't

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> He doesn't have to.
> 
> If I'm right, then *Noah* doesn't even have to know about the other side of the world, he just has to know that he, or at least a parent, is "royalty."





> How do you reconcile this theory with Raven claiming Noah doesn't have the authority to knight people?


Well that is true, as far as Raven knows. That doesn't mean he is right; he's not omniscient or anything.

----------


## Vinyadan

> I don't think being of royal lineage alone gives you authority to knight anyone. Especially if you live in a country ithout monarchs and knights.


Per se, living in a republic wouldn't be a problem, and even a dynasty with no kingdom may continue bestowing knighthoods (in the end, if there aren't specific laws against the practice, it would be a private matter; in other words, no one outside the house would be forced to recognise the title). The position of Noah within his "house" would indeed be the real problem, since these things generally aren't just given out by any random member of the house and might require the assent of a commission and/or the leader of the house, or someone empowered by him.

----------


## Maat Mons

Potential plot twist for the current EGS:NP arc: it's not really a chicken.

----------


## Rater202

> Potential plot twist for the current EGS:NP arc: it's not really a chicken.


Why... Why did you have to link that?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Potential plot twist for the current EGS:NP arc: it's not really a chicken.


You dare doubt the majesty of the Platonic Hen!? [cor=white]]Who was probably assigned cockerel at birth...[/color]

----------


## Rater202

Well, that's a bit of an oh snap!

----------


## Celestia

>When you're such a deadbeat dad that you quit your job and run away just to avoid speaking to your child.

----------


## Windscion

Heh, be fair. He was probably worried about awkward zone to the infinity. This makes the timing much more on Diane, which is what she would ordinarily want.
But part of me is "LMAO you snooze you lose." Which isn't exactly fair, either.

However, the issue of what Noah knows becomes more urgent. I can think of multiple reasons why Adrian Raven would have alerted Noah to the situation.
* Diane could show up at his home or business wanting answers. Making Noah (who lives with Adrian) not aware of her right to be there is a mistake. Noah is a vigilant guard dog
* In exactly this situation, to provide a forwarding address.

I am more intrigued by the idea that Adrian has a newly hatched Mommy Chaos floating around, and cannot readily deal with her and his normal life.

----------


## Maat Mons

You know, some dads _do_ quit their job as a scheme to try to get out of paying child support.  It's common enough that there are laws specifically to prevent it from working.

----------


## Rater202

It was not, in fact, a joke. The replacement history teacher's days are numbered.

Twenty years from now he's going to teach some common misconception about history and suddenly Raven will be standing behind him and they will have words.

----------


## Windscion

So. Diane is a wizard, I guess. Otherwise no way she'd duplicate Noah's speed.

----------


## Rater202

So Dan isn't even being coy about Noah's head antenna anymore, in a couple of pannels of this comic they blatantly look like Gace's.

If this is going to be a whole arc of Noah and Diane then I imagine we're going to 1: Get an explicit confirmation that he's a Chimera and 2: figure out just what the hell the deal is with his bio-parents.

----------


## Vinyadan

> So. Diane is a wizard, I guess. Otherwise no way she'd duplicate Noah's speed.


Either that, or being half-elf gives you some fitness benefit, possibly combined with cheerleader training.

----------


## Taevyr

Considering her other "bardic" ability, it's either her casting expeditious retreat or just jack of all trades  :Small Tongue:

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Diane is clearly a Dexterity build and has previously displayed high levels of stealth and agility. I have no trouble believing she can be fast if she wants to be.

----------


## Gez

> Diane is clearly a Dexterity build and has previously displayed high levels of stealth and agility. I have no trouble believing she can be fast if she wants to be.


Charisma and Dexterity. She can get people to pay attention to her, and she hasn't failed any Intimidation check yet.  :Small Wink:

----------


## Taevyr

From the commentary: "That moment the players have questions you SO do not have answers for".

Yes Dan, that's at least 75% of DM'ing, and that's when you had good prep time  :Small Tongue:  

Gotta say, I'm enjoying this plotline more than I expected when Dan said he actually had little experience. Curious to see how Ellen'll continue to do, and silently hoping for a "that's a WAY better plot element/line than I had planned, and I should have JUST enough wiggle room to make it seem like it was the plan all along" moment.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Charisma and Dexterity. She can get people to pay attention to her, and she hasn't failed any Intimidation check yet.


Well yes, but the Charisma part doesn't help her move fast (I assume), so I left that out.  :Small Wink:

----------


## Fyraltari

Oh no, it's a game master's worst nightmare! A player's real-life area of expertise!

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> From the commentary: "That moment the players have questions you SO do not have answers for".
> 
> Yes Dan, that's at least 75% of DM'ing, and that's when you had good prep time


There's a reason why about 90% of my prep time is spent on NPC stats  :Small Tongue: 

But yeah, there's better ways to handle this than what Ellen's chosen. It's not a bad way, but it is strong arming her players into following a specific lead. I'd personally have asked for a Persuasion roll, then some sort of Investigation or Logic roll (depending on system) to get the relevant information out of it.

THEN I'd suggest that said guard just caught a cold.

Most likely it's a pair of guards who can vouch for the other, alongside a servant or maid who left the house at a convenient time.

----------


## Radar

> There's a reason why about 90% of my prep time is spent on NPC stats 
> 
> But yeah, there's better ways to handle this than what Ellen's chosen. It's not a bad way, but it is strong arming her players into following a specific lead. I'd personally have asked for a Persuasion roll, then some sort of Investigation or Logic roll (depending on system) to get the relevant information out of it.
> 
> THEN I'd suggest that said guard just caught a cold.
> 
> Most likely it's a pair of guards who can vouch for the other, alongside a servant or maid who left the house at a convenient time.


There might be better ways to handle this, but how many can you think of on the spot, when a player blindsides you like that?  :Small Smile:  Add to that the fact, that Ellen did not have any preparation time - just a ready-made scenario she did not even have much time to familiarize herself with.

----------


## WanderingMist

> Oh no, it's a game master's worst nightmare! A player's real-life area of expertise!


One that Ellen should have 100% known about considering she was half the mystery-solving duo, who figured out the mystery of how the prized lockpicking gorilla escaped. Truly, the most difficult mystery of all.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

Ellen is still roleplaying as the King or whoever. I wouldn't call her suggesting an alternative course of action "strong arming" the party.  :Small Confused:

----------


## Maat Mons

Diane is straddling some strange boy.  The law of comedic timing says that Lucy should walk in now.

----------


## Windscion

> Diane is straddling some strange boy.  The law of comedic timing says that Lucy should walk in now.


That would probably force things into the open pretty quickly.
Well, ugly quickly, more like.

----------


## Vinyadan

If I had a girlfriend who wears Roman armor as a long skirt, I'd try not to make her angry.

Really, those look a lot like studded leather stripes.

----------


## Gez

> If I had a girlfriend who wears Roman armor as a long skirt, I'd try not to make her angry.
> 
> Really, those look a lot like studded leather stripes.


Dan has had fun dressing her in stealth cosplay outfit. It's been going on for a while.

----------


## WanderingMist

> Diane is straddling some strange boy.  The law of comedic timing says that Lucy should walk in now.


Hey, look who was spot-on! More the law of dramatic timing than comedic but still.

----------


## Taevyr

> Dan has had fun dressing her in stealth cosplay outfit. It's been going on for a while.


Xena seems to be the touchstone for Lucy's clothing style, and I personally really like how it's done. Complements her personality quite well too.

----------


## Fyraltari

With regards to the NP, this is starting to look like the kind of quest where I would side with the traitor over the quest-giver.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> With regards to the NP, this is starting to look like the kind of quest where I would side with the traitor over the quest-giver.


Are we absolutely certain the chicken isn't the mayor?

----------


## Fyraltari

> Are we absolutely certain the chicken isn't the mayor?


Yes, we do.

----------


## Windscion

Damn, Noah. I get that you aren't fond of secrets, but BOUNDARIES, dude.

----------


## Gez

> Damn, Noah. I get that you aren't fond of secrets, but BOUNDARIES, dude.


That's for the best. Lucy "Lawless Cosplay" here was going ballistic with conspiracy theories and Diane was too dead set looking for a deflection to calm her down.

----------


## Windscion

Oh look, Diane and Lucy did not appreciate Noah's interference.
This is why boundaries matter.

----------


## Rater202

...Bit of hypocrisy on Lucy's part.

When it was Diane keeping secrets, Lucy just had to know but now ha someone's told her it's "no, Diane's boundaries matter."

----------


## Gez

> Oh look, Diane and Lucy did not appreciate Noah's interference.
> This is why boundaries matter.


Did we read the same comic? Lucy's the one who broke boundaries.
https://www.egscomics.com/comic/brother-003 + https://www.egscomics.com/comic/brother-004
https://www.egscomics.com/comic/brother-010 + https://www.egscomics.com/comic/brother-011

But anyway, Noah has successfully redirected Lucy's unreasonable anger from Diane to himself, and since he's not the one who's burdened with Lucy as a girlfriend, it's of no consequence to him. Mission accomplished, I'd say.

----------


## Devlerbat

Question: Is "Can we talk about this latter I am not ready to say just yet" not a perfectly valid option and the healthiest answer?


Granted it was clear to Noah that it was not the answer Diane was going with and the sentiment would have meant nothing coming from him (as for Diane; flawed characters and all that).

----------


## Windscion

> Did we read the same comic? Lucy's the one who broke boundaries.
> https://www.egscomics.com/comic/brother-003 + https://www.egscomics.com/comic/brother-004
> https://www.egscomics.com/comic/brother-010 + https://www.egscomics.com/comic/brother-011
> 
> But anyway, Noah has successfully redirected Lucy's unreasonable anger from Diane to himself, and since he's not the one who's burdened with Lucy as a girlfriend, it's of no consequence to him. Mission accomplished, I'd say.


Clearly we do not read the same comic, as Lucy was well within her rights to ask those questions. Also by saying "[Noah]'s not the one who's burdened with Lucy as a girlfriend" it you make it clear that that you have a problem wth Lucy. I don't really care why, so I am disengaging.

----------


## Maat Mons

I think the important thing here is that, in panel 5, it looks like Noah's floating up into the air... right after Lucy called him "balloon head."  Clearly, she just accidentally activated a magic mark based around turning figures of speech literal.

----------


## Gez

> Clearly we do not read the same comic, as Lucy was well within her rights to ask those questions. Also by saying "[Noah]'s not the one who's burdened with Lucy as a girlfriend" it you make it clear that that you have a problem wth Lucy. I don't really care why, so I am disengaging.


Yes, I find her behavior (instantly getting angry, inventing fantasy scenarios and throwing wild accusations) to be really off-putting and that makes me dislike her, while I had before this arc no problem with her.

The fact that after learning what had troubled Diane, her reaction is to confront Noah (because he gave her the answer to the question she was screaming out loud) instead of comforting Diane, says a lot about her.

----------


## Pax1138

I don't know, I just did a quick reread of the story so far, and it seems to make sense to me.  Lucy asked her girlfriend why she'd been acting so weird for what seems to be a week or so, and gets a ridiculous, obvious lie in return, so of course she's angry!  But then, when Noah blurts out the truth, she realizes Diane had good reasons, even if she wasn't handling it well.  Also she was mad at Noah for hurting and/or embarassing her girlfriend.  Maybe not an optimal response, but and understandable one.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Yes, I find her behavior (instantly getting angry, inventing fantasy scenarios and throwing wild accusations) to be really off-putting and that makes me dislike her, while I had before this arc no problem with her.


Hello, perhaps you have never met a teenager before? Masters of social skills, they are not. This observation is directed at all three of the characters here, by the way. None of them handled this situation well at all.

----------


## Gez

Point was when she figured out Diane was hiding something from her, her reaction was direct confrontation (in a public place, so she didn't get the idea that maybe Diane would rather discuss whatever matter troubles her in private without random eavesdroppers), threat of physical violence (look at that "is that a yes?" panel again, she's clearly eager to get into a brawl), and jealousy (since she immediately assumed an ex-boyfriend was the issue).

And, once again, after being told what emotional rollercoaster Diane had been on and understanding why she was acting like this, her reaction is to insult and attack Noah instead of dropping her aggressive behavior and turning to Diane with words of comfort and understanding, like "oh gosh are you okay" or something. She seems too focused on being aggressive and confrontational to be paying attention to her SO, and that's to me a _massive_ red flag.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

She was angry. She can't just stop being angry with a flip of a switch, no one can. Redirecting the anger onto a more deserving source is the best she can do until everyone takes a moment to catch their breath.

To be clear, I'm not saying this isn't a possible issue she has to work on. It probably is. But it's also extremely understandable for a character in her position. Wait to see if she can recover from this before leaping to judgement.

----------


## Celestia

Oh, look at that! Lucy made a mistake due to her emotional state but then realized she did wrong and apologized! Turns out that a character getting angry and unreasonable is not automatically confirmation that they are an irredeemable, toxic a-hole who deserves nothing but scorn and hate!

----------


## Windscion

Well Diane and Noah screwed up as well. Diane is interesting in that she is the first major character we have seen confronting their own actions multiple times. 
Noah, like Grace, has gaps in his social conditioning. (https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2005-02-28 and https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2011-03-07), so I'm inclined to cut him some slack.
Some.

----------


## Vinyadan

I think these three are all very fallible people, so it isn't suprising if they mess up once in a while. Noah comes from a family in a cult, may suffer from serious PTSD, plus he tried to sell his soul for power (or somesuch), and used to be in a relationship with someone who was openly in love with someone else; plus, who knows how many secrets and grudges he's had to carry his whole life. Diane and Lucy had their routine of getting boys to give them gifts, and the way their relationship started seemed to me superficial on Diane's side.

To be honest, it's an interesting deviation from the main cast.

(also, they are teens.)

----------


## Radar

> Diane and Lucy had their routine of getting boys to give them gifts, and the way their relationship started seemed to me superficial on Diane's side.


Which frankly might also make Lucy additionally insecure about their relationship.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> (also, they are teens.)


This is the biggest thing. I think most kids that age are overwhelmed navigating the stormy sea of hormones, so they overreact and jump to conclusions because everything in their life is coming at them at maximum speed and everything's SUPER IMPORTANT all the time, and they don't know how to deal. Feels like some people who're criticizing these characters maybe don't remember what being a teenager was like, or had atypical life experiences.

----------


## Celestia

> This is the biggest thing. I think most kids that age are overwhelmed navigating the stormy sea of hormones, so they overreact and jump to conclusions because everything in their life is coming at them at maximum speed and everything's SUPER IMPORTANT all the time, and they don't know how to deal. Feels like some people who're criticizing these characters maybe don't remember what being a teenager was like, or had atypical life experiences.


That is a consideration, but I think the bigger issue is even simpler than that. This is a story _in progress._ We do not have all the context for every scene. We don't even have the whole scene most of the time. Despite this, some people want to make judgement calls about it as if this were a completed work, which is completely unfair to both the story and the author. It's the audience jumping to conclusions.

----------


## Windscion

Well carp. Also Lake carp. River carp? _(Edit: Phew! Carp are freshwater fish.)_
Noah's eye. And his mother's parent's naive, joyful faith in the master of fire implies a lot of painful regrets ahead for them.
Or to put it another way: hit right in the feels.

----------


## Rater202

> Well carp. Also Lake carp. River carp? _(Edit: Phew! Carp are freshwater fish.)_
> Noah's eye. And his mother's naive, joyful faith in the master of fire implies a lot of painful regrets ahead for her.
> Or to put it another way: critical hit right in the feels.


"I never knew my mother, and my father was a bitter, quick-tempered fanatic who helped create Damien, the monster that killed him and many others."

Combine that with Painted Black noting that Damien as made by religious fanatics who got tired of waiting...

Yeah, that's almost certainly Noah's father and something must have happened to sour his father.

...Could also be that Noah's father was gender non-conforming, given the emphasis on a lack of a gender binary the second panel.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Yeah, I'm guessing that Noah's parent is NB, while Noah is probably cis (seeing his dislike of being gendered as female).

Also I wonder what's up with Noah's eye in panel three. I suppose he's likely just shifted it.

----------


## WanderingMist

He said he didn't want to leave us with this for thanksgiving weekend so clearly he has something even worse planned for that.

----------


## Radar

> Yeah, I'm guessing that Noah's parent is NB, while Noah is probably cis (seeing his dislike of being gendered as female).
> 
> Also I wonder what's up with Noah's eye in panel three. I suppose he's likely just shifted it.


Did we ever see his left eye before? Since he apparently cannot hide the antennae, maybe he is stuck like that with one Uryuom eye?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Did we ever see his left eye before? Since he apparently cannot hide the antennae, maybe he is stuck like that with one Uryuom eye?


Yeah, I went back ~4 comics to check  clearly two human eyes while being straddled by Diane.

----------


## Windscion

> Yeah, I'm guessing that Noah's parent is NB, while Noah is probably cis (seeing his dislike of being gendered as female).


Or, just a stab in the dark here, he doesn't like being jeered at by his classmates?
I forgot/misread Noah saying he didn't remember his mother.

----------


## Vinyadan

I've been wondering for a while if Noah is the equivalent to Archie in Ellen's dream world.

----------


## Rater202

> I've been wondering for a while if Noah is the equivalent to Archie in Ellen's dream world.


Dan denied that years ago.

We saw Noah's eye for the first time all the way back in the final page of Temple of Swedish Furniture. It looked like a normal eye, but had two reflections of light instead of one.

If I had to hazard a guess, Noah probably has either a wand or a bit of Uryuom Tech that lets him disguise his eye, but by the time he got it he was so used to hiding his eye with his hair that he kept doing that.

And the TF Gun is explicitly much more advanced than commonly available, so whatever Noah has access to, if it's based on Uryuom tech, isn't able to hide his antenna.

...it's also possible that Raven enchanted Noah, now that I think about it. A transformation Enchantment would do that and, since Noah is a Greater Chimera he'd absorb it an be able to assume that form at will.

(It's the Lespuko DNA that lets Grace combine forms)

----------


## Radar

Today's NP reminds me of the Cigarette Smoking Man from X-files: originally intended as an unnamed background extra that got remade into the main antagonist because of the widespread fandom reaction and all the theories floating about his possible significance.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Also, Larry, have a brain. If Geoff the Cleric was important to the plot they'd have a _name_.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Also, Larry, have a brain. If Geoff the Cleric was important to the plot they'd have a _name_.


Nah, this is a _crime thriller_, suspecting the unnamed spearholder who show up briefly in the first act to be important to the resolution of the crime is kind of valid.



Also players just kind of do these things.

----------


## Taevyr

> Nah, this is a _crime thriller_, suspecting the unnamed spearholder who show up briefly in the first act to be important to the resolution of the crime is kind of valid.
> 
> 
> 
> Also players just kind of do these things.


Reminds me of the time my tabletop group decided there had to be something special about the bare-bones, Cr 1/8 skeleton who avoided 4 killing blows in a row and downed the fighter with two crits after the third and fourth. That damn pile of bones was far too capable to be merely a pile of bones. Became a whole thing, and our DM happily played into it.

Never forget the undead horror that was formerly known as John Henry James IV.

----------


## Vinyadan

Maybe Noah's Uryom eye is normally kept hidden because of heightened sensorial perception, in a similar way to how Grace tends to keep her antennae off.

By the way, I like how the antennae, as the strongest sensorial organs, are used to touch and show tenderness in a way similar to how we use our very sensitive hands, or many animals use their noses and tongues.

----------


## Rater202

Pointy Ears on Sis-Mode Diane.

----------


## Windscion

So now that Rhoda has grow up and left the nest, along comes Noah. Diane will appreciate having someone to boss around take care of.

----------


## Vinyadan

"You know what? We should cosplay Zelda!"

----------


## Taevyr

> Pointy Ears on Sis-Mode Diane.


Huh, didn't catch that first read. Nice detail

----------


## Windscion

Wandering a bit far afield, but I wonder if Raven has any idea that Tedd is a wizard/seer.
The reason I mention this is if Diane's ears are going to manifest, she'll want to talk to someone -- could be Raven, could be Tedd -- about supressing/hiding them. Or, y'know, making them permanent since she likes the idea. 
 (https://www.egscomics.com/comic/party-223)

----------


## Maat Mons

Anyone want to speculate on how long quarter-immortals like Diane live?  More specifically, could Adrian Raven's firstborn still be kicking around somewhere?

----------


## Radar

I am wondering if the current outburst about checking if Noah is fine comes partially from the fact that Diane is adopted and possible related abandonment issues.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Anyone want to speculate on how long quarter-immortals like Diane live?  More specifically, could Adrian Raven's firstborn still be kicking around somewhere?


Hmmmm... I'd say it depends on how common elves are. But according to Raven they'd have been born in his 20s, so we're looking at what, 200 years at an absolute minimum, more likely half a millennium? I forget if it was ever established as to when Blaike lived.

By the time it hits Susan levels it's clearly not that much of a boost, but we're also talking like a hundred generations removed at that point.

Also going by the fact that most immortals are specifically hiding the fact that elves are fertile I'd say that past the first generation it's probably not a significant boost to lifespan. Immortals already have issues with having kids, elves don't seem to have the same sanity issues with age so they likely have to deal with outliving their kids several times over.

Although I suspect that if Adrian had known he'd likely have tracked down his first kid and acted as grandad to all of their descendants.

...

What if Van is Raven's kid, and he's gone off to look into that possibility? If so he'll definitely come back to Moperville with Noriko and Van in tow, on the day of the wedding.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Hmmmm... I'd say it depends on how common elves are. But according to Raven they'd have been born in his 20s, so we're looking at what, 200 years at an absolute minimum, more likely half a millennium? I forget if it was ever established as to when Blaike lived.
> 
> By the time it hits Susan levels it's clearly not that much of a boost, but we're also talking like a hundred generations removed at that point.


"Half a millenium [...] hundred generations"
That... that's some pretty early pregnancies you got there, chief.

But also, yeah, if the descendant of elves had a noticeable increase in lifespans, I think it would have been noticed.

----------


## Rater202

> Hmmmm... I'd say it depends on how common elves are. But according to Raven they'd have been born in his 20s, so we're looking at what, 200 years at an absolute minimum, more likely half a millennium? I forget if it was ever established as to when Blaike lived.
> 
> By the time it hits Susan levels it's clearly not that much of a boost, but we're also talking like a hundred generations removed at that point.
> 
> Also going by the fact that most immortals are specifically hiding the fact that elves are fertile I'd say that past the first generation it's probably not a significant boost to lifespan. Immortals already have issues with having kids, elves don't seem to have the same sanity issues with age so they likely have to deal with outliving their kids several times over.
> 
> Although I suspect that if Adrian had known he'd likely have tracked down his first kid and acted as grandad to all of their descendants.
> 
> ...
> ...


Raven doesn't strike me as the type to sleep with his students, even if said students are much older now than otherwise.

...Though he did say that it's hi fault that Norko and Edward were no longer together. I assumed that that was because he overly encouraged her pursuit of magical power, but...

----------


## Fyraltari

Yeah, also even if Noriko isn't the nicest person, I think that she'd have told Raven he isn't actually infertile.

Also, also, the fact that he can make good guesses at who Diane's mother and Susan's ancestor are based on nothing but Diane's age and Susan being "a distant descendant" despite them being one-night stands (and his own words on the matter) strongly suggests that he hasn't had many sexual encounters in his centuries of life.

Which makes me ponder whether the notion that half-immortals are less likely to successfully procreate is even true to begin with. Maybe they just all have a low sex drive?

----------


## Rater202

> Yeah, also even if Noriko isn't the nicest person, I think that she'd have told Raven he isn't actually infertile.
> 
> Also, also, the fact that he can make good guesses at who Diane's mother and Susan's ancestor are based on nothing but Diane's age and Susan being "a distant descendant" despite them being one-night stands (and his own words on the matter) strongly suggests that he hasn't had many sexual encounters in his centuries of life.
> 
> Which makes me ponder whether the notion that half-immortals are less likely to successfully procreate is even true to begin with. Maybe they just all have a low sex drive?


I mean, from a strictly biological perspective the fact that they have eternal youth would correlate to a low sex drive and rate of fertility.

The longer an organism lives and remains in it's prime, the less need there is to reproduce.

And we honestly have no idea how fertile Immortals are. It's entirely possible that all elves are the product of either particularly promiscuous immortals or else an immortal directly trying to conceive a child.

----------


## Maat Mons

I assumed it was less about having a low sex drive, and more about not wanting to form close emotional bonds with he's going to outlive many times over.  Really, one night stands make the most sense if you don't want to wind up carrying a torch for several hundred years.  

As for number of partners, I don't think we know where Adrian ranks on the Kinsey scale.  He's clearly had at least two encounters with women, but those two encounters could be anywhere from 100% to... some very small number % of his experiences.  

Actually, since half-immortals have a very low fertility rate, if Adrian has had exactly two encounters with women, and also exactly two children, he's quite the statistical anomaly.  Maybe Diane just looks a lot like her mother, and Susan somehow looks a lot like her unspecified distant ancestor.

----------


## Rater202

> I assumed it was less about having a low sex drive, and more about not wanting to form close emotional bonds with he's going to outlive many times over.  Really, one night stands make the most sense if you don't want to wind up carrying a torch for several hundred years.  
> 
> As for number of partners, I don't think we know where Adrian ranks on the Kinsey scale.  He's clearly had at least two encounters with women, but those two encounters could be anywhere from 100% to... some very small number % of his experiences.  
> 
> Actually, since half-immortals have a very low fertility rate, if Adrian has had exactly two encounters with women, and also exactly two children, he's quite the statistical anomaly.  Maybe Diane just looks a lot like her mother, and Susan somehow looks a lot like her unspecified distant ancestor.


...Raven _does_ look a lot like Susan's dad.

----------


## Maat Mons

Ah yes, I forgot about that.  So, either Ravens genes kept a strong influence however many generations on, or Susans dad is more closely related to Raven than the timing of Ravens firstborn would seem to suggest.  That could put us back to my guess about quarter-immortals lining a long time.  Or maybe he was turned to stone in a museum in Britain.  It seems unlikely hed be an aberration.  Too many people in Moperville who would have caught on to that.

----------


## Windscion

No matter how you slice it, Susan doesn't make sense. Raven was in Russia before he came to the US. How did a random descendant of his show up in the town that he ... oh, wait. Moperville. Maybe people w/ strong magic genes tend to live in Moperville (or other magic hotspots) even when they don't know they have magic. They might just feel that the air agrees with them.

Not an explanation, but it does sharply reduce the number of likely scenarios to something plausible, if only just.

----------


## Rater202

> Raven was in Russia.


No, he wasn't. That's part of the reason he doesn't like Arthur.

----------


## Gnoman

> Yeah, also even if Noriko isn't the nicest person, I think that she'd have told Raven he isn't actually infertile.
> 
> Also, also, the fact that he can make good guesses at who Diane's mother and Susan's ancestor are based on nothing but Diane's age and Susan being "a distant descendant" despite them being one-night stands (and his own words on the matter) strongly suggests that he hasn't had many sexual encounters in his centuries of life.


Or his immortality comes with an extremely good memory, and even his one-night stands are just That Important to him.

----------


## Gez

> Raven was in Russia before he came to the US.


No.

His dad's name, "Blaike", doesn't sound Russian at all. It sounds more like a Ye Olde Nonstandard Spellinge for Blake which is specifically British.

The countries that Pandora list here have Germany as the easternmost he went. He denies being (or having gone throug) Russia here.

Also, his name is Raven. And he said the only thing he lied about was his age. Now we know Pandora chose the name Raven because of he bird, but if that had been in a non-English-speaking country, it would have therefore been a different name. Like "Rabe" in German or "Corbeau" in French. So if his official name is indeed "Adrian Raven" and not "Adrien Corbeau" or something like that, then between that and his dad's name, we can safely conclude he's most likely English-born. Then he traveled a bit in Western Europe, but not further East than Germany, probably cycling between a few countries so that he would be long forgotten by the time he went back in there, and eventually moved to the USA at some point within the last three centuries. Perhaps he also traveled back and forth across the Atlantic a few times.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> "Half a millenium [...] hundred generations"
> That... that's some pretty early pregnancies you got there, chief.
> 
> But also, yeah, if the descendant of elves had a noticeable increase in lifespans, I think it would have been noticed.


Look, it was late at night, my mental maths ability is off.

Although never underestimate how many generations uryuom eggs allow you to speed throw.


Also, I thought Raven was _Blaike's_ surname, it's part of the reason I've been using Adrian's forename. He was also an adventurer, which means that Adrian wasn't necessarily in his homeland when he and Pandora met, started wrestling, and had Adrian.

Considering the three countries listed, it's possible that Raven spent most of his time in whichever country was the local superpower, before moving to the US with the fall of the British Empire (good riddance). But I also agree that Blaike's name just rings English to me, I've been picturing him as either the first or second son of some minor baron. Although in that case any claim Adrian could make to the title, if he wouldn't just give it up entirely, would likely be disputed by other family members.

Another solution, of course, is that Adrian could have Anglicised his surname. I'm just not certain that Pandora would.

----------


## Fyraltari

> I mean, from a strictly biological perspective the fact that they have eternal youth would correlate to a low sex drive and rate of fertility.


But are they immortal or just very long lived?




> The longer an organism lives and remains in it's prime, the less need there is to reproduce.


The only thing that matters (as far as biology is concerned) is that enough of the offspring reaches adulthood tonreplace the previous generation.




> And we honestly have no idea how fertile Immortals are. It's entirely possible that all elves are the product of either particularly promiscuous immortals or else an immortal directly trying to conceive a child.


So?



> I assumed it was less about having a low sex drive, and more about not wanting to form close emotional bonds with he's going to outlive many times over.  Really, one night stands make the most sense if you don't want to wind up carrying a torch for several hundred years.


Thinking about it "there aren't many times it could have happened without me knowing" implies that keeping in touch with the women he has sex with is the norm for him, rather than one-night stands.




> As for number of partners, I don't think we know where Adrian ranks on the Kinsey scale.  He's clearly had at least two encounters with women, but those two encounters could be anywhere from 100% to... some very small number % of his experiences.


That's an excellent point I hadn't considered.




> Actually, since half-immortals have a very low fertility rate, if Adrian has had exactly two encounters with women, and also exactly two children, he's quite the statistical anomaly.


Which is what made me wonder whether "the low fertility rate" is actually true.



> Maybe Diane just looks a lot like her mother, and Susan somehow looks a lot like her unspecified distant ancestor.


Considering that they look a lot like Raven, I'm not sure what that would imply.



> No matter how you slice it, Susan doesn't make sense. Raven was in Russia before he came to the US. How did a random descendant of his show up in the town that he ... oh, wait. Moperville. Maybe people w/ strong magic genes tend to live in Moperville (or other magic hotspots) even when they don't know they have magic. They might just feel that the air agrees with them.
> 
> Not an explanation, but it does sharply reduce the number of likely scenarios to something plausible, if only just.


Raven figures his firstborn happened in his actual twenties. Literal centuries ago. Unless that line has had only one surviving child per generation, he's bound to have a great many descendants all over Europe and the West at large. There's been quite the population boom since his twenties.



> Or his immortality comes with an extremely good memory, and even his one-night stands are just That Important to him.


If he can pinpoint which one Susan is descended from based on "a long time ago" that strongly suggests he's only had a handful in his life.



> Also, his name is Raven. And he said the only thing he lied about was his age. Now we know Pandora chose the name Raven because of he bird, but if that had been in a non-English-speaking country, it would have therefore been a different name. Like "Rabe" in German or "Corbeau" in French. So if his official name is indeed "Adrian Raven" and not "Adrien Corbeau" or something like that, then between that and his dad's name, we can safely conclude he's most likely English-born.


Having to change your name to get citizenship, because an immigration official can't be bothered or after getting through to better fit in is quite common for immigrants. I wouldn't call that lying.

Edit: I agree that Adrian is English, though, I think he identifies as such in an FAQ (and complains about having to drink tea).

----------


## Rater202

So... This is _two_ people that Diane has made cry by acknowledging them as family.

----------


## WanderingMist

> So... This is _two_ people that Diane has made cry by acknowledging them as family.


At least it's with happiness.

----------


## Epinephrine_Syn

> Then he traveled a bit in Western Europe, but not further East than Germany, probably cycling between a few countries so that he would be long forgotten by the time he went back in there, and eventually moved to the USA at some point within the last three centuries. Perhaps he also traveled back and forth across the Atlantic a few times.


The inclusion of Germany specifically implies that he was in Germany way, way more recently than three hundred years ago. Germany was _founded_ in 1871. It's barely been around for 150 years, half of "three centuries". What probably happened was that he went to the founding of the country, served in it in ww1, and then found out about ww2 and bailed to the Americas.

Maybe he served in it after, but unlikely. I doubt the story would have him serve hitler unless it was going for a real dark twist, but that doesn't leave him much time to stay there for long enough for it to be something Box would mention and then also live in the USA for a few decades.

----------


## Rater202

> The inclusion of Germany specifically implies that he was in Germany way, way more recently than three hundred years ago. Germany was _founded_ in 1871. It's barely been around for 150 years, half of "three centuries". What probably happened was that he went to the founding of the country, served in it in ww1, and then found out about ww2 and bailed to the Americas.
> 
> Maybe he served in it after, but unlikely. I doubt the story would have him serve hitler unless it was going for a real dark twist, but that doesn't leave him much time to stay there for long enough for it to be something Box would mention and then also live in the USA for a few decades.


Raven didn't serve at all.

Something something immortal law prevents elves from serving in the military.

----------


## Fyraltari

> The inclusion of Germany specifically implies that he was in Germany way, way more recently than three hundred years ago. Germany was _founded_ in 1871.


Pandora was having an emotionally-charged discussion with a her son. I don't think we should expect strict historical accuracy from her.
Besides, it's not like Germany came out of nowhere. If he'd been a subject of Prussia or Bayern it wouldn't be absurd for him to feel "German" today.

----------


## WanderingMist

> The inclusion of Germany specifically implies that he was in Germany way, way more recently than three hundred years ago. Germany was _founded_ in 1871. It's barely been around for 150 years, half of "three centuries".


America was founded in 1776 but people started immigrating like two centuries earlier. And Prussia was around in the 1300s and is basically proto-Germany, so Pandora could easily have been talking about that. For all we know, Pandora may have meant fighting for Germany to become a united Germany rather than the hodgepodge of bickering states that it was.

----------


## Radar

> Pandora was having an emotionally-charged discussion with a her son. I don't think we should expect strict historical accuracy from her.
> Besides, it's not like Germany came out of nowhere. If he'd been a subject of Prussia or Bayern it wouldn't be absurd for him to feel "German" today.


For all the numerous states that currently roughly coalesced into Germany (also Austria), there was a lot of common connection right from the Middle Ages because of the Holy Roman Empire that actually lasted till XIX century and was succeeded by the German Confederation. So I'd say Germany did mean something for more than 150 years at least to some degree.

----------


## Vinyadan

Germany as a word has been around in English since the XIV century, and the equivalent Latin at the very least since Tacitus wrote a book about it. There however is a pretty large divide between the Roman concept and the Medieval concept, and there also is a divide between the current Germany and the various political entities that preceded it (Germanic tribes and the Roman Empire - Charlemagne and his Eastern heirs - the German-speaking parts of the Holy Roman Empire - the German states and lands - the current unified Germany).

If anything, mentioning modern Germany could be a way to show Raven how stateless he is, if he lived under the monarch of a long-defunct German state.

----------


## InvisibleBison

I don't really like Ellen's decision in the recent NP to change the plot of the adventure to make the PC's wild theory correct. I think that, especially in a mystery adventure, the PCs should be allowed to be wrong.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> I don't really like Ellen's decision in the recent NP to change the plot of the adventure to make the PC's wild theory correct. I think that, especially in a mystery adventure, the PCs should be allowed to be wrong.


She already changed the plot to be about the mayor's chicken instead of the mayor's daughter, and frankly, the idea the players came up with is _far more interesting_ than the original plot, from the sounds of Ellen's brief summary in her head.

I completely disagree with you here. You should reward players for coming up with fun ideas.

----------


## WanderingMist

> I don't really like Ellen's decision in the recent NP to change the plot of the adventure to make the PC's wild theory correct. I think that, especially in a mystery adventure, the PCs should be allowed to be wrong.


It really sounds like the original adventure was a basic kidnapping plot, so, clearly letting the players run with their idea is the better choice here. Plus, George will probably stop her if she starts listening too them too much.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> She already changed the plot to be about the mayor's chicken instead of the mayor's daughter,


It's one thing for a DM to alter a pre-written adventure before starting the game; it's another for the DM to change what has happened after play has started. In general, I don't think a DM should retcon things unless the game is hopelessly snarled and the players agree it's needed to set things straight.




> and frankly, the idea the players came up with is _far more interesting_ than the original plot, from the sounds of Ellen's brief summary in her head.


So what if it's not interesting? It's not true. There's nothing wrong with an improvisational game where things that happened in the past aren't fixed until they're established, but that's not the sort of game they're playing now. In a game with a pre-established narrative, it is dishonest of the DM to change things mid-play. In an investigation in particular, making whatever theory the PCs decide to investigate be correct is not at all in keeping with the nature of the game. How many mystery stories have you encountered where the first theory the detective comes up with is correct?




> I completely disagree with you here. You should reward players for coming up with fun ideas.


When said ideas are compatible with the rest of the game, yes. But something being fun is not in and of itself enough reason for it to be true.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> How many mystery stories have you encountered where the first theory the detective comes up with is correct?l


Very few, although this is also like theory #3 (#1 being 'a wizard did it' and #2 being a looser version of this theory). It's also notable that their theory being correct doesn't mean there can't be more twists and turns later.

But here's the thing, there was never actually the intention to run the adventure as written. I don't think daughter->chicken was really pre-planned, and Ellen was fully intending to change the story on a whim (she explicitly says 'minor changes', but if this forwards them to the next encounter it's probably minor).

It'll probably turn out Mark was bribed or threatened or something by Jazterian the Dark (or whatever the official NPC is called), or wanted to get back at the mayor for some reason and helped Triselda the Grim. Maybe this all comes down to the mayor banning the major festival of Orange Wednesday (where the temple puts on two plays but only charges you for one).

If this doesn't end with the party burning the mayor's mansion to the ground and adopting the chicken the story just won't be believable.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> So what if it's not interesting? It's not true.


None of this is true. They are playing a ****ing game.




> There's nothing wrong with an improvisational game where things that happened in the past aren't fixed until they're established, but that's not the sort of game they're playing now.


Yeah it is. Ellen already said as much.

----------


## Gez

> The inclusion of Germany specifically implies that he was in Germany way, way more recently than three hundred years ago. Germany was _founded_ in 1871. It's barely been around for 150 years, half of "three centuries".


The founding in 1871 was just making official something that had been de facto for a while.

We can go back to Charlemagne, and the division of his empire between his heirs, with a long story of fragmentation and reunification, usually involving successions for the former and wars for the latter. But mostly the Caroline empire got split into three part, a Western part that would become France quite quickly and go under a millennia of expansion, consolidation, and centralization; while the Eastern part that would become Germany and the Southern part that would become Italy underwent further fragmentation and decentralization.
Proto-Germany declared itself to be the Holy Roman Empire (despite, as a famous quip said, not being an empire, not being Roman, and certainly not being holy) which was actually some sort of loose confederation of separate fiefdoms with dukes and princes electing one of them to be their emperor, a function that was mostly ceremonial as the emperor did not have much authority over his vassals. Meanwhile in Italy you had several independent city states, several that were republics instead of feudal, a couple of which (Genoa and Venice) were great powers for a while, and the Papal state (that today is reduced to the so-called Vatican City).
Germany and Italy both got reunited as single nation-states in the 19th century, but that's a political distinction more than a cultural or geographical one.




> What probably happened was that he went to the founding of the country, served in it in ww1, and then found out about ww2 and bailed to the Americas.
> 
> Maybe he served in it after, but unlikely. I doubt the story would have him serve hitler unless it was going for a real dark twist, but that doesn't leave him much time to stay there for long enough for it to be something Box would mention and then also live in the USA for a few decades.


Germany in WW1 was not much better than Germany in WW2; the ideas that coalesced into Nazi ideology were already largely present in 1914, cf. Septemberprogramm.

----------


## theNater

> How many mystery stories have you encountered where the first theory the detective comes up with is correct?


This is a key feature of _Columbo_, which is one of the best detective series ever made.

----------


## Rater202

Okay, so... there is blatantly no one else in that hallway. Either Noah turned around or...

Place your bets: Zeus or Pandora?

----------


## Radar

> Okay, so... there is blatantly no one else in that hallway. Either Noah turned around or...
> 
> Place your bets: Zeus or Pandora?


My bet would be on Noah. Bigger question is, what happened to Diane. My theory is that she awakened some time ago (maybe due to the magic mirror, but it is not as important) and now unconsciously used some new spell allowing her to chase Noah. Her suddenly fainting looks very similar to what happened to Elliot after he wrongly thought to be fully healed from a burn out.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Okay, so... there is blatantly no one else in that hallway. Either Noah turned around or...
> 
> Place your bets: Zeus or Pandora?


Wouldn't catching someone who's falling over be a violation of immortal law?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> Wouldn't catching someone who's falling over be a violation of immortal law?


"We're allowed to guide and empower, I simply guided them to their feet!"  Nauda, a.k.a. the Uprighter, who's still figuring things out after their past reset

----------


## Windscion

The "D-Dont worry" suggests someone who is rattled. I'm thinking because they care about Diane, which limits it somewhat.
So, Lucy, Noah, Rhoda, Adrian Raven? OTOH, Grace can catch her w/o being next to her and might be rattled. (She doesn't _need_ to be in 3-tail form to use her TK, tho it helps.)
If it is Rhoda, I expect she resorted to magical shenanigans, since she is smol.

----------


## Maat Mons

Diane appears to be standing just outside a restroom, so the mystery person could have just conveniently come out at exactly the right time.  

Diane's had at least one class since she chased Noah through the halls, so a delayed reaction to the exertion seems unlikely.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Wouldn't catching someone who's falling over be a violation of immortal law?


If hugging someone isn't a violation of immortal law, I don't see why catching someone who's falling over should be.

----------


## theNater

> Diane appears to be standing just outside a restroom, so the mystery person could have just conveniently come out at exactly the right time.


Alternately, while we don't see them, there are going to be classrooms off of this hallway, and Diane is late enough to class to be noticed.  A classmate who knows she's going through stuff today might bail on class to check on her; my money's on Lucy, but Grace, Rhoda, Nanase, Justin, and any other cast members who go to that school are possible.

----------


## Radar

> Diane's had at least one class since she chased Noah through the halls, so a delayed reaction to the exertion seems unlikely.


I do not see any indication that time has passed between page 21 and 22 of this arc - they seem to be part of the same scene especially since the first thought in page 22 ("He is not a stranger") is a direct continuation of the last one in page 21 ("Made a commitment to a total stranger").

----------


## theNater

> I do not see any indication that time has passed between page 21 and 22 of this arc - they seem to be part of the same scene especially since the first thought in page 22 ("He is not a stranger") is a direct continuation of the last one in page 21 ("Made a commitment to a total stranger").


Diane pursued Noah in page 8 and spent page 16 in class.  The meeting they conclude on page 21 would thus take place about an hour after the chase.

----------


## Radar

> Diane pursued Noah in page 8 and spent page 16 in class.  The meeting they conclude on page 21 would thus take place about an hour after the chase.


My bad >.<

I somehow misremembered that the their last talk was right after the chase.

----------


## Windscion

Okay, seems we're back to Pandora or Zeus.

----------


## Vinyadan

> Okay, seems we're back to Pandora or Zeus.


Or the wizard girl graduated from Smokeform to an Invisibility spell.

----------


## theNater

At this moment, Pandora strikes me as most likely(Zeus has been pretty resentful of his obligation, so I would expect his commentary to have a different tone.)  But as Vinyadan points out, there are a lot of wizards around, and I sure don't remember what the other immortals we know about are up to these days.

Whatever happened to those two immortals that were following Elliot around back in the day?

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Why couldn't it just be the nurse?


I mean, it's probably Box, but it could be the nurse.

----------


## Windscion

> Whatever happened to those two immortals that were following Elliot around back in the day?


Last we saw they were back in France -- see images when Pandora wiped out the abberations. Since they had failed to stop Magus, they had no real reason to stick around Moperville, esp. after antagonizing Volty.

----------


## Radar

> Why couldn't it just be the nurse?
> 
> 
> I mean, it's probably Box, but it could be the nurse.


What if the nurse is Box? Considering her somewhat weird statement about her degree, I would not rule this one out.

----------


## Rater202

The fact that she felt the need to confirm that she was a real nurse is valid.

School nurses have a _not undeserved_ reputation for not being the most effective of medical professionals.

There are very strict limits on what they're allowed to say or do regarding a student's well-being and they don't exactly have the most reliable equipment on hand.

They're also encouraged to prioritize getting the student back to class and thus to err on the side of misdiagnosing down... Not to mention a general assumption among school people that students will do anything to skip classesthe same reason why they limit your bathroom breaks

So you get the stereotype of someone trying to treat a broken arm with an ice pack.

...then there's the general jadedness that comes from it being a job that doesn't pay what it's worth and gets no respect, and like all jobs with a position of authority once you've got a degree of seniority a disturbing number of people get hooked on power tripping.

So a nurse who actually knows what the hell she's doing and cares enough to do it properly has every reason in the world to feel defensive.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Why couldn't it just be the nurse?
> 
> 
> I mean, it's probably Box, but it could be the nurse.


The nurse didn't seem to know she was there until she heard shouting in the hallway.

And based on the softly glowing text box, I'm guessing the mystery voice is coming from out of nowhere or is actually telepathically in her head.



Anyway, I'm assuming an Immortal is involved by the way Diane was guided to the nurse's office and then left to her own devices. "Empower and guide" being their modus operandi.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Last we saw they were back in France -- see images when Pandora wiped out the abberations. Since they had failed to stop Magus, they had no real reason to stick around Moperville, esp. after antagonizing Volty.


I really can't make out if this is supposed to be them or just random immortals like (seemingly) in the panels immediatemy after and before this one.

Also, I hate to be typing this, but strictly speaking this panel might be Las Vegas rather than Paris.

----------


## Gez

> Also, I hate to be typing this, but strictly speaking this panel might be Las Vegas rather than Paris.


Or Tianducheng!

----------


## Windscion

Okay, so our mystery savior has a physical body.
Diane's Biological mother?

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Okay, so our mystery savior has a physical body.
> Diane's Biological mother?


Immortals have physical bodies.  :Small Tongue:  It's possible 'phasing into the spirit realm' is a skill they need to learn, just like 'being undetectable by other Immortals'.

----------


## Maat Mons

Mystery person clearly knows Diane, because they addressed her by name.  Diane doesn't know who mystery person is just from their voice.  Diane is confident, presumably from mystery person's voice, that mystery person is female.  

I suspect that mystery person turned invisible and sought out Diane with intent to cast a spell on her.  I further suspect that Diane's bought of light-headedness was an unforeseen side effect of this spell.  So mystery person, for all she knows, harmed Diane and then didn't even stick around to make sure she was alright.  Real classy move there, Rhoda Jay.  

Yeah, I'm going with Rhoda as my prediction for mystery person.  The silhouette looks short enough, and has a similar enough hairstyle.  

"Why wouldn't Diane recognize Rhoda's voice," you say?  Maybe the invisibility spell does something with sound too.  Or maybe Diane was just not coherent enough at that moment to place the voice. 

No, wait, I'm blind.  That hair isn't like Rhoda's at all.  New guess.  



*Edit:* And speaking of Jay, who else wants to see Raven, Jay, and Rhea form a bird-themed crimefighting trio?  Some good names would be Captain Corvid, Cyanocitta Mamacita, and the Ratite Retaliator.  The group could even expand beyond the three founding members if Dan introduces new characters named Robin, Piper, Corbin, and Starling.

----------


## Taevyr

Having just seen wednesday's comic, I have to say.

That last panel is just... a perfect shot. He talks about it in the commentary, but ye gods, is it visible that he put a lot of effort in that one.

----------


## Rater202

I've gotta say, it's interesting to see such a direct comparison to show how Dan's improved as an artist over time.

Honestly I'd kind of like to see him redraw the first comic

----------


## WanderingMist

> I've gotta say, it's interesting to see such a direct comparison to show how Dan's improved as an artist over time.
> 
> Honestly I'd kind of like to see him redraw the first comic


He did that in one of the sketchbooks back in 2012, I think? It was some sort of anniversary comic. Like, he's gotten better since then but it's a lot less noticeable than the difference between the actual first strip and that anniversary strip.

----------


## Rater202

Calling it here" Raven and Abraham are the two "recruits" who are working with Agent Wolf to track Magus.

Like, one of them is obviously Abraham just from context and dialog but the other one could be anybody and I think this is leading up to it being Raven.

----------


## Windscion

Well, now. It may be that Abraham's failure lead to Blaike's death? That would put a different complexion on Pandora's attempt to kill Abraham.
Addendum: And if so, Adrian Raven may not know about the connection? He may suspect?

----------


## Celestia

> Well, now. It may be that Abraham's failure lead to Blaike's death? That would put a different complexion on Pandora's attempt to kill Abraham.
> Addendum: And if so, Adrian Raven may not know about the connection? He may suspect?


Is this...new information? I thought that was already known.

----------


## Windscion

Well, Adrian didn't exactly go Inigo Montoya on old Abe, so I just assumed that the vast oceans of history separated events. In retrospect I guess that's what Pandora meant when she described Abraham as the man responsible for the unsleeping wolf.
Also, I wasn't on the forums back then.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

It's also possible that Adrian has also developed an identity that's significantly less grounded in Blaike than Pandora's was, possibly partially because he lost his father at such a young age. Even if he realised that Abraham was responsible for Blaike's death he likely considered saving the lives of innocents more important.

----------


## Vinyadan

Adrian has several advantages over Pandora in processing his father's death. He doesn't become insane as time goes on, for starters. 

I think Blaike's death is a particularly touchy subject for Pandora, as, beyond the pain, it also represents her failure; but maybe also the suppressed awareness that she can huff and puff all she wants, but she never could have kept her family together, as Blaike was mortal, and her mind was bound to rot (I mean, I don't think the comic has shown agreeable pathways to immortality).

----------


## InvisibleBison

Why do people think Abraham is responsible for Blaike's death? Werewolves existed prior to Abraham creating the Dewitchery Diamond, after all. But even if the werewolf that killed Blaike was the one created by the diamond, Abraham would no more be responsible for its actions than a person would be for their child's crimes.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Why do people think Abraham is responsible for Blaike's death? Werewolves existed prior to Abraham creating the Dewitchery Diamond, after all. But even if the werewolf that killed Blaike was the one created by the diamond, Abraham would no more be responsible for its actions than a person would be for their child's crimes.


Your problem here is you're using logic and the person you'd have to convince is Pandora.

----------


## Rater202

> Is this...new information? I thought that was already known.


I think it was alluded to, with Pandora drawing attention to Abraham's status and Raven refering to Abraham with some rather loaded terms, but.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Why do people think Abraham is responsible for Blaike's death? Werewolves existed prior to Abraham creating the Dewitchery Diamond, after all. But even if the werewolf that killed Blaike was the one created by the diamond, Abraham would no more be responsible for its actions than a person would be for their child's crimes.


Wasn't the one that killed Blaike referred to as the "unwaking wolf" at one point?

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Wasn't the one that killed Blaike referred to as the "unwaking wolf" at one point?


Yes, here, but as far as I can tell that is the only time that phrase shows up in the comic.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Why do people think Abraham is responsible for Blaike's death? Werewolves existed prior to Abraham creating the Dewitchery Diamond, after all. But even if the werewolf that killed Blaike was the one created by the diamond, Abraham would no more be responsible for its actions than a person would be for their child's crimes.


One might be of the opinion that Abraham attempting to cure the noble* rather than let him kill himself makes him responsible for the subsequent deaths. And if the noble was Blaike, Pandora might blame Abraham and his late mentor for there being a werewolf in the area in the first place depending on what exactly happened.


*Feels really unnatural that Abraham's journal never gives his name and just repeats "the noble" _ad nauseam_, not even using synonims like "nobleman" or "knight".

----------


## Anonymouswizard

> *Feels really unnatural that Abraham's journal never gives his name and just repeats "the noble" _ad nauseam_, not even using synonims like "nobleman" or "knight".


Urgh.

Knight is not a synonym for noble. Depending on the exact system it might be a noble rank, or it might be a non-noble title. At least in the English system they'd be gentry but not aristocracy, therefore not nobles. I'm not familiar with other title systems, but I suspect similar rules apply.

You can be both a member of the aristocracy and a knight, and this may have been common in the past. I'm not a scholar of history, I legitimately have no idea. There are also ranks of aristocracy where the conferred title is Sir/Dame rather than Lord/Lady, but these are the very bottom of the totem pole and are _not knighthoods_.

It's also feasible than Shove wants to keep the gender ambiguous, or that Abraham's friend was NB.

----------


## Celestia

> Why do people think Abraham is responsible for Blaike's death? Werewolves existed prior to Abraham creating the Dewitchery Diamond, after all. But even if the werewolf that killed Blaike was the one created by the diamond, Abraham would no more be responsible for its actions than a person would be for their child's crimes.


Except that wolf was not a child and was not even a "person." A more equivalent comparison would be if someone broke into a zoo and damaged a cage, allowing a wild animal to escape. If that animal then goes on a rampage and hurts someone, that is the fault of the person who let the animal out. Abraham created the wolf, so its crimes are his to bear.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Except that wolf was not a child


When I said child earlier, I meant adult child.




> and was not even a "person."


We don't actually know this. Abraham describes it as a monster, sure, but he's demonstrated rather conclusively that he can't be trusted to make good decisions on moral issues. It's entirely possible that the Dewitchery Diamond put a copy of the noble's mind in the werewolf body it created just as it put a copy of Elliot's mind in the female body it created.


But all of this is kind of beside the point, because there is *absolutely no reason* to think that the werewolf that killed Blaike is the same werewolf that the Dewitchery Diamond created.

----------


## Rater202

> But all of this is kind of beside the point, because there is *absolutely no reason* to think that the werewolf that killed Blaike is the same werewolf that the Dewitchery Diamond created.


Except 1: Noah thinks it might have been.

2: the commentary for the comic establishes the possibility.

3: Pandora lists letting the "creator of the unwaking wolf" near Raven as a mistake,

4: Raven speaks about Abraham with some rather loaded terms when Abraham reveals himself as the creator of the Diamond.

----------


## Vinyadan

That about the creator of the unwaking wolf is an interesting detail. He holds a special place in Pandora's mind, as well as in the annals of magic. But Raven and magic teachers in general seem to have characterised him mainly as an example of what should not be done, not as someone very strong. Then again, he did defeat Raven, he was experienced, and he was likely much older than when he enchanted the diamond. He was a wizard that specialised in existing to kill things, so maybe that's why Pandora suddenly understood what a threat he was.

On the EGS-Antagonist scale, though, not that much of a threat, since Raven < Abraham < Wing Nanase < Tengu < Ted's mom, and not knowing how extremely heavy hitters like Magus, the Gryphons, Grace, and Damien rank compared to them.

Now, there are two interesting plots that could be developed. One is somewhat likely to come up if Abraham shows up again, and that's how he lost access to the diamond. Assuming he wasn't a complete imbecile, he should have understood that destroying it was a better solution than killing monster after monster, unless he was cursed against his will until the diamond was destroyed by someone else (and a deranged Pandora might have had a hand in it, which would explain why she knows about him), or the diamond came under control of someone he couldn't touch, or he still saw it as a healing machine (hard to believe).
A second plot would be how a killer like Abraham would approach Elliot's evil spell, even just by talking about it. Abraham had to self-convince, but he tried to bend his self-control and kill Ellen because he felt he had to. Elliot willingly gave up on self-control. I think he could have some interesting interaction with Elliot.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> 1: Noah thinks it might have been.


Noah openly admits that he has no idea whether or not it might have been, and that he's engaging in exactly the same baseless speculation off of exactly the same incomplete information as people in this thread.




> 2: the commentary for the comic establishes the possibility.


I'll admit, I hadn't read the commentary before you brought it up. I don't think it's a reason to support the theory, though; an author suggesting a speculative idea this strongly usually means it's not correct.




> 3: Pandora lists letting the "creator of the unwaking wolf" near Raven as a mistake,


So what? Nothing in her thoughts there suggest her retrospective apprehension about letting Abraham get near Raven had anything to do with Blaike, nor is there any connection between the term "unwaking wolf" and Blaike.




> 4: Raven speaks about Abraham with some rather loaded terms when Abraham reveals himself as the creator of the Diamond.


He calls Abraham an incompetent moron. He doesn't say anything about Abraham having anything to do with Blaike's death. This is a complete non sequitur.

----------


## Fyraltari

> Urgh.
> 
> Knight is not a synonym for noble. Depending on the exact system it might be a noble rank, or it might be a non-noble title. At least in the English system they'd be gentry but not aristocracy, therefore not nobles. I'm not familiar with other title systems, but I suspect similar rules apply.
> 
> You can be both a member of the aristocracy and a knight, and this may have been common in the past. I'm not a scholar of history, I legitimately have no idea. There are also ranks of aristocracy where the conferred title is Sir/Dame rather than Lord/Lady, but these are the very bottom of the totem pole and are _not knighthoods_.


Pretty sure in the middle ages, knigts _were_ nobility. Sepcifically, of the kind trained to and expected to fight. Abraham's friend started hunting werewolves to "protect the lives of his peasants" which suggests to me that he followed a chivalrous ideal of slaying monsters and whatnot. 



> It's also feasible than Shove wants to keep the gender ambiguous, or that Abraham's friend was NB.


The repeated use of "he" and "his" suggest otherwise.

Also, just noticed that hundred of years ago, medieval wizard Abraham used the American dating systems in his personal diary.  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Celestia

In the Early Middle Ages, Kighthood was a purely military title. By the High Middle Ages, Knights were considered petty nobles in continental Europe. They were technically part of the nobility but were at the lowest rank and frequently lacked many of the rights and powers of true nobles. In Britain, however, Knights are, and have always been, commoners.

----------


## Vinyadan

> In the Early Middle Ages, Kighthood was a purely military title. By the High Middle Ages, Knights were considered petty nobles in continental Europe. They were technically part of the nobility but were at the lowest rank and frequently lacked many of the rights and powers of true nobles. In Britain, however, Knights are, and have always been, commoners.


I think this is one of those situations where the word is used in different ways in different languages. The mere fact that English uses "knight" sets it apart from other languages (knight originally meant "boy" or "servant"*, while much of Western continental Europe used words meaning "horseman" or "rider", unless they were speaking Latin, then the Medieval word was "miles" = "soldier"), and the word gained a military meaning in the XIV century, so pretty late. "Sergeant" would be a French word closer to "knight" in its original meaning (servant).

But I think that the more important aspect is that being a knight as petty rank in nobility was different from being a knight as part of the much wider order of knights (you could be both at the same time, or just one of them, or none at all). Emperors, kings, and great nobles were knights, if they had received an investiture. We know of a great feast being held for the investiture of the sons of Emperor Barbarossa, and many nobles, great and small, joined in, on the basis that this was a feast for knighthood, and they were all knights (or wished to become one), no matter the huge differences in power and standing. King Francis I also received the accolade when he already was king from Bayard, a knight of much smaller rank in the feudal scale, but well-known as an exemplary warrior and knight, after the battle of Marignano.

If you asked me, "Could you be invested knight without being noble, and, if you could, were you a noble afterwards?", I wouldn't know. The Weapons Armour an Tactics Questions thread in Roleplaying Games would be a good place to ask and get a circumstantiated answer (as no place in Europe had the same laws as the other).

*this is pretty common, Latin puer means both boy and slave, same for Greek pais, and I believe English still has a derogative use of "boy" (or at least it seemed so from a Team 4 Star movie, the one with the trucker hat).

----------


## KillianHawkeye

I find it likely that if Pandora, in her anger at the death of her husband, helped rid the world of werewolves, it likely would have happened relatively quickly after the fact. She probably didn't go full nuclear on them the way she eliminated most of the aberrations in the more recent comic times, but I doubt it took more than a handful of years.

This doesn't prove that Abraham's werewolf is the one that killed Blaike, but it does probably mean that it and the Dewitchery Diamond were created at most within a few years of his death. If it wasn't the same werewolf, then it makes complete sense for Pandora to be aware of a wizard who accidentally created a 100% full-time werewolf, since she was in the midst of her werewolf revenge phase.

Given that the two options are that either Abraham created the werewolf that killed Pandora's husband, or that he coincidentally created an uber-werewolf at around the same time (give or take a couple years) as Pandora declared war on all werewolves, I think it makes more narrative sense for them to be one and the same, but it still hasn't been firmly established in the comic's lore if that's true.

----------


## Rater202

For what it's worth, going back to Pandora's backstory the panel depicting Blaike confronting the werewolf was clearly in the evening.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> I find it likely that if Pandora, in her anger at the death of her husband, helped rid the world of werewolves, it likely would have happened relatively quickly after the fact. She probably didn't go full nuclear on them the way she eliminated most of the aberrations in the more recent comic times, but I doubt it took more than a handful of years.
> 
> This doesn't prove that Abraham's werewolf is the one that killed Blaike, but it does probably mean that it and the Dewitchery Diamond were created at most within a few years of his death. If it wasn't the same werewolf, then it makes complete sense for Pandora to be aware of a wizard who accidentally created a 100% full-time werewolf, since she was in the midst of her werewolf revenge phase.
> 
> Given that the two options are that either Abraham created the werewolf that killed Pandora's husband, or that he coincidentally created an uber-werewolf at around the same time (give or take a couple years) as Pandora declared war on all werewolves, I think it makes more narrative sense for them to be one and the same, but it still hasn't been firmly established in the comic's lore if that's true.


Why are you discarding the possibility that Abraham created the Dewitchery Diamond a long time before Blaike's death?

----------


## Maat Mons

I'd always assumed that Abraham's situation was contrived by Pandora as a means of ensuring the death of all Lycanthropes.

----------


## WanderingMist

> I'd always assumed that Abraham's situation was contrived by Pandora as a means of ensuring the death of all Lycanthropes.


Pandora was bent on revenge but she was still within normal immortal reset limitations, so she wouldn't have been also crazy on top of it when Blaike died to a werewolf. And I think Pandora would have realized if she were indirectly responsible for her own husband's death, which is kind of what you're implying by saying she set Abraham up.

----------


## Maat Mons

I think we may be imagining a different order of events.  What Im suggesting is:
Blaike dies to some random werewolf.Pandora decides to eradicate all werewolves as revenge.Pandora manipulates Abraham into creating the Dewitchery Diamond.The Unwaking Wolf kills people and spawns more werewolves.Abraham swears to kill the Unwaking Wolf and all its progeny.The progeny of the Unwaking Wolf are just normal werewolves, not unwaking werewolves.Since Abraham cant be sure which werewolves are descendants of the Unwaking Wolf, he eradicates all werewolves.Pandora has now fulfilled her goal of avenging Blaike.  
In this scenario, Blaikes death isnt a result of Pandoras actions, directly or indirectly.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> I think we may be imagining a different order of events.  What Im suggesting is:
> Blaike dies to some random werewolf.Pandora decides to eradicate all werewolves as revenge.Pandora manipulates Abraham into creating the Dewitchery Diamond.The Unwaking Wolf kills people and spawns more werewolves.Abraham swears to kill the Unwaking Wolf and all its progeny.The progeny of the Unwaking Wolf are just normal werewolves, not unwaking werewolves.Since Abraham cant be sure which werewolves are descendants of the Unwaking Wolf, he eradicates all werewolves.Pandora has now fulfilled her goal of avenging Blaike.  
> In this scenario, Blaikes death isnt a result of Pandoras actions, directly or indirectly.


I think you're crediting Abraham with a lot more power than we've seen him possess. How could he kill werewolves faster than they reproduce?

----------


## Maat Mons

Im not completely sure what the lore on werewolves is in EGS.  But in many incarnations, they only run the risk of infecting others while transformed, and only transform on the night of the full moon.  Further, the newly-afflicted are often depicted as not transforming until the _next_ full moon.   

So, after killing the Unwaking Wolf, Abraham would probably no longer needed to worry about werewolves attacking people 29 days a month.  Thats 29 days to find any survivors of last months werewolf attacks and kill them before they ever get a chance to transform.  Also, to find the attacking werewolf in human form, and kill them when theyre defenseless.  It would also really help if most people who get attacked by a werewolf are killed by it.  Only those who dont die are ever going to make it to the next full moon to become werewolves themselves.  

Assuming that werewolves only reproduce when they _fail_ to kill their target, and that werewolves are generally pretty deadly, they probably have a pretty low rate of reproduction.  Combine that with being helpless, squishy humans almost all the time, and its kind of a wonder werewolves werent wiped out sooner.

----------


## Windscion

Hence the problem of the "unwaking wolf" -- always a wolf; always primed to kill; *never* vulnerable, and very possibly eager to share his curse. If he infects with an identical strain, those weaknesses you mention are mostly gone. So if it wants to spread its curse, it can do so with good effect.

----------


## Kish

Considering Pandora was enraged by Abraham's actions and tried to manipulate Magus and Edward into killing him for them, I find it very unlikely that she caused them. It also smacks of making her the only established character in the past with agency.

I also don't think it's likely that the "unwaking wolf" creates other unwaking wolves rather than simple werewolves with his bite; aside from the fact that that seems like a detail someone would have mentioned in all these "he could still spread lycanthropy" mentions, Ellen is a permanent woman who has a beam that temporarily turns men into women, not a beam that permanently turns men into women with their own sex-change beams.

As for how Pandora helped "rid the world of werewolves" without violating "only guide and empower (as a sane-as-immortals-get immortal would read them)," I doubt Dan will go into that, but I can think of two very simple possibilities which don't involve Abraham, depending on how ruthless Dan is willing to write Pandora being. Most simply, if the werewolf is just a vulnerable human most of the month (which I think they probably are), it's the easiest thing in the world for a powerful immortal who wants to to arrange an unprotected human's death; either "guide" them into quicksand or "guide and empower" their neighbors to lynch them for being a werewolf. Alternatively, if Pandora balked at murdering defenseless humans (not in her portrayal at all but Dan might balk at writing it), shade werewolves until they're about to attack some random person, then empower that random person to kill the werewolf.

----------


## Anonymouswizard

Also note that Pandora's magical trait is probably an affinity for magical items (see: Susan's spell). Whenever she learns of a werewolf she can almost certainly find a nearby wannabe hero and 'empower' them with a magic weapon that'll hurt the creature.

Things get even easier if 1) werewolves are magical* and 2) she can get an older Adrian to fight them.

* This bypassing the elf non-interference clause.

----------


## KillianHawkeye

> Why are you discarding the possibility that Abraham created the Dewitchery Diamond a long time before Blaike's death?


I guess it's possible, it just didn't seem very likely to me? Perhaps it's because the ultimate fate of the uber-werewolf remains as of yet unknown. It seems like such a threat couldn't have remained in existence for very long, or else things would have gotten out of hand, but Abraham himself was ill-equipped to resolve things himself.

Given Pandora's knowledge of the unwaking wolf, and her general attitude toward it, my assumption is that she encountered it, one way or the other, following the death of her husband.

----------


## Yuki Akuma

> Why are you discarding the possibility that Abraham created the Dewitchery Diamond a long time before Blaike's death?


Not every story is a puzzle.

----------


## InvisibleBison

> Not every story is a puzzle.


That's true, but I think it's more of an argument against the idea that seemingly disparate events are secretly connected than it is in favor of it.

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## Vinyadan

EGS tends to join together numerous different events, sometimes in a somewhat forced manner (Magus being the origin of Ellen), but does so if it makes the story make sense (in this case, it was a passage for having Pandora instructing Magus on how to possess Elliot through Ellen's beam to then be expelled as a curse with its own body).

Back then, I believe I was one of those who suggested the possibility of Blaike having been killed by Abraham's wolf. However, I don't believe it would add much to the story... Except for a reason for Pandora's bizarre insistence in having Abraham killed. Who knows, maybe she actually thought Abraham would have been killed by Raven, and changed her version to "it was a harsh lesson" when it almost got her son killed.

Then again, she was crazy and violent. But Edward murdering a prisoner would have hurt just about everyone Pandora seemed to care about**: his ex friend Raven, his son and Raven's godson Ted, Sarah...

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## Rater202

> Then again, she was crazy and violent. But Edward murdering a prisoner would have hurt just about everyone Pandora seemed to care about**: his ex friend Raven, his son and Raven's godson Ted, Sarah...


Pandora admitted that she forgot that Tedd existed for a little while around that time.

Pandora wasn't friends with Sarah yet when that happened, however, so she wouldn't be considered regardless

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## Kish

> Then again, she was crazy and violent. But Edward murdering a prisoner would have hurt just about everyone Pandora seemed to care about**: his ex friend Raven, his son and Raven's godson Ted, Sarah...


Pandora said explicitly that she had forgotten that Edward and Adrian were friends. But yes, in general, her actions were those of a self-absorbed, petty villain, who actively sneered at the idea of doing anything to help people that didn't give her violent revenge at the same time, and Dan's expectation that everyone would readily get on the "be sad for Pandora" train continues to task me and likely will whenever she comes up for the rest of the comic's run.

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## KillianHawkeye

I mean, we're talking about someone with increasing mental illness the older they get, and Pandora was very much past her years. Sure, she did some awful things, but there's an extent to which she's not responsible for her inability to keep it together. Her only focus has been on her son and her dead husband, and when her sanity dips that's all she can remember or think about. Other people and places lose importance in those times, because she's too focused on her obsession.

Pandora is not her mental illness. Remember that insanity has been shown as a literal split personality of "light (original)" and "dark (obsessive)" versions. We can't judge her personality on what she says and does when she's not lucid. On her better days, she's shown to be caring and regretful, because that's who she really is and originally was.

I'm looking forward to when post-reset Pandora returns to the story, because hopefully at least then she won't have to face the stigma of her mental illness anymore.

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## Vinyadan

For me, it depends on how you look at it. Pandora became crazy because of her decision, which no one forced on her. If someone drinks, becomes drunk, and then strangles someone, I don't think he deserves any extenuating circumstance, because no one forced him to become drunk: losing control was his decision, not too different from closing your eyes while driving.
However, if someone suffers from alcoholism and gets drunk and kills someone, things get more complicated. At the beginning, he probably wasn't forced to drink, but, by now, he is addicted to it, with mental and physical consequences from withdrawal. In practice, one could argue that he gets drunk under lack of capacity. Many alcoholics however manage to stop drinking, so this lack of capacity isn't absolute, but it's there, so one could see as an extenuating circumstance.

So it depends on how you see it. Pandora deliberately impaired her own judgment, which would frame what she did afterwards squarely as her fault. However, at the time of the events shown in EGS, does she have complete capacity to restore her judgment? If she doesn't, she loses part of the responsibility for perseverating in her insane state.

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## Kish

Blaike died still looking like a young man, while Pandora was planning to reset at 200 which she expected to be pretty shortly after he'd died of natural causes.

So...how sane was she when she set out to destroy werewolves?
How sane was she when she discarded out of hand the idea of looking for a cure for lycanthropy?

Setting aside the fact that, as Vinyadan points out, she chose to become insane. She walked into it with her eyes open: she would not let her love die (but would let herself gradually become a monster who Blaike would have hated, according to a line Dan choked up about giving to Adrian). So no. In my book, the extent to which she was not responsible for her actions would take a scanning electron microscope to locate.

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## Fyraltari

Do we know how old Adrian was when Blaike died? Because I can undersatnd Pandora not wanting a child to lose both parents at once and it's possible that by the time Adrian reached adulthood, her faculties were too impaired to make that choice anymore absent an emergency.

Of course, this all rest on what exactly is meant by "insane" in this context. Pandora's mental illness seems to be the "hollywood isane" variety, by which I mean "doesn't actually resemble any actual mental illness diagnosis".

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## Rater202

Her symptoms seem to include mood swings, some degree of dissociation, and a tendency to hyperfocus on things that set her off to the point of literally forgetting important details that aren't relevant in the heat of the moment.

However, in her lucid moments, she feels remorse for her actions should they have caused harm to her loved ones, which suggests that she's fully aware of what she's doing when she isn't.

She seems to have trouble with right and wrong... But then again so did Hanma so that might just be an Immortal Thing.

It very clearly took a lot out of her to hold it together when she was explaining what being a Seer meant to Tedd. She just looks exhausted after she had her outburst over what it's like to be a parent knowing that you _can't_ protect your and as soon as Tedd was out of the room she dissociated and had an argument with herself.

I'm not really comfortable mapping immortal insanity onto any human mental illness, but it's pretty clear that she is _whacked_.

I'm inclined to be generous, however. Her reasons for putting off resetting were understandable, reasonable, and valid. And we know from Jerry that you can push it for a bit before it becomes a problem, he was over the limit by a few decades.

The problem was that by the time she really needed to do it she was too far gone to ever make the choice barring a huge shock. The events of Sister III were the shock she needed. I think.

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## InvisibleBison

> Do we know how old Adrian was when Blaike died? Because I can undersatnd Pandora not wanting a child to lose both parents at once and it's possible that by the time Adrian reached adulthood, her faculties were too impaired to make that choice anymore absent an emergency.


At the time of Blaike's death, Adrian was ten and Pandora was 166.

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## Kish

Which gave her thirty-four years before the standard immortal reset date to reconcile herself to the fact that it would be a disaster for everyone, including the one person she actually cared about as well as the many she did not, if she didn't reset. And she didn't reset when he was 44, or when he was 54, or when he was 244. And at some point she unambiguously became insane: a choice she had made, knowingly, which I do not consider to retroactively justify itself.

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## Maat Mons

On the topic of choosing to exterminate lycanthropes instead of looking for a cure, remember that time spent researching a cure is time during which people are dying in lycanthrope attacks.  You could easily wind up with _more_ dead bodies due to the delay in action than youd have from just killing all the lycanthropes.  Those afflicted with lycanthropy are innocent victims, but so are those torn to pieces and eaten by lycanthropes.  It depends, of course, on how the numbers stack up, but Pandora may have made the morally correct choice here.

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## Rater202

> On the topic of choosing to exterminate lycanthropes instead of looking for a cure, remember that time spent researching a cure is time during which people are dying in lycanthrope attacks.  You could easily wind up with _more_ dead bodies due to the delay in action than youd have from just killing all the lycanthropes.  Those afflicted with lycanthropy are innocent victims, but so are those torn to pieces and eaten by lycanthropes.  It depends, of course, on how the numbers stack up, but Pandora may have made the morally correct choice here.


Noah did say that, according to his research, Lycanthropy could have easily resulted in a "zombie Apocalypse" scenario and that, while Raven condemned it, Pandora could very well have saved the human race by going for a more violent solution.

I think Dan's trying to frame it as being a "there's not really a good answer here."

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## Kish

> On the topic of choosing to exterminate lycanthropes instead of looking for a cure, remember that time spent researching a cure is time during which people are dying in lycanthrope attacks.  You could easily wind up with _more_ dead bodies due to the delay in action than youd have from just killing all the lycanthropes.  Those afflicted with lycanthropy are innocent victims, but so are those torn to pieces and eaten by lycanthropes.  It depends, of course, on how the numbers stack up, but Pandora may have made the morally correct choice here.


From a strict consequentialist perspective, sure. I'd even believe Pandora's existence has always been a net positive for the people around her, if only because Dan's by no means above bumping the table if the dice are pointing to "someone you want to be sympathetic did a really bad thing*." But Raven was clear that that was no part of her thought process. Violent revenge she wanted, violent revenge she got, with the fact that they were victims of a curse rather than having made any evil choices being screamed down with "THEY KILLED [BLAIKE!]."

And I mean. I'd be vastly more sympathetic to "yeah, I dealt with that more ruthlessly than I needed to, but my lover had just died a violent death" than to "my violent, selfish revenge was an act of such good that the idea I should do anything else for the world at large is absurd."

*Will I regret using this metaphor? Very possibly. I'll dissect and explain it if I have to, but in a bid to avoid this, let me emphasize, METAPHOR. I am not under the impression anyone is actually rolling dice, or that Pandora's life is on a table for that matter.

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## WanderingMist

> Im not completely sure what the lore on werewolves is in EGS.  But in many incarnations, they only run the risk of infecting others while transformed, and only transform on the night of the full moon.  Further, the newly-afflicted are often depicted as not transforming until the _next_ full moon.   
> 
> So, after killing the Unwaking Wolf, Abraham would probably no longer needed to worry about werewolves attacking people 29 days a month.  Thats 29 days to find any survivors of last months werewolf attacks and kill them before they ever get a chance to transform.  Also, to find the attacking werewolf in human form, and kill them when theyre defenseless.  It would also really help if most people who get attacked by a werewolf are killed by it.  Only those who dont die are ever going to make it to the next full moon to become werewolves themselves.  
> 
> Assuming that werewolves only reproduce when they _fail_ to kill their target, and that werewolves are generally pretty deadly, they probably have a pretty low rate of reproduction.  Combine that with being helpless, squishy humans almost all the time, and its kind of a wonder werewolves werent wiped out sooner.


No, because the original werewolf curse was _every night,_ which a lot of people seem to forget.

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## Gez

> No, because the original werewolf curse was _every night,_ which a lot of people seem to forget.


Well, the point has been brought back, so people were allowed to forget. Dan Shive is an endless barrel of recaps!

Meanwhile, in NP, Dan claims that dual-wielding pickaxes in Skyrim is a terrible idea. But actually, Skyrim being Skyrim, it's a perfectly functional play style. Is it optimal? No. Can you still become an uebergod capable of destroying anything in less than five seconds anyway? Yes. It's Skyrim.

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## Celestia

> Meanwhile, in NP, Dan claims that dual-wielding pickaxes in Skyrim is a terrible idea. But actually, Skyrim being Skyrim, it's a perfectly functional play style. Is it optimal? No. Can you still become an uebergod capable of destroying anything in less than five seconds anyway? Yes. It's Skyrim.


Not really, no. Pickaxes can't be tempered with smiting, and that's where most of your damage output is coming from. With a one-handed skill of 100 and all five Armsman perks, your pickaxes will still only be doing 15 damage per hit. That's quite pitiful. Even if you go all in on fortify one-handed enchantments on your gear, that'll still only bring you up to 48 damage per hit. That's not terrible, but it's hardly broken.

Of course, if you exploit the fortify restoration bug, you can get your pickaxe to do several million damage per hit, but without bugs, you won't be ubergodding anything.

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## Pax1138

But you can sure mine some ore really quick with two pickaxes.  Especially in the VR version.

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