# Forum > Gaming > Homebrew Design > D&D 5e/Next [5e Class] The Armiger - v2.1 (Swordmage/Bladedancer/Levitating Weapon Master)

## Blurhy

Hi! We've been hard at work putting in some polish on the Armiger class (previously called the Vanguard). Version 2.1 is nearly an entire overhaul of the class, including but not limited to a new name, 2 new subclasses, and more!

*You can find the class on Google Docs at the following URL:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing*


*THE ARMIGER - v2.1 (5e class preview)*
_The Armiger is a class inspired by sword mages, swordmancers, blade dancers, weapon mages, weapon masters, Masters of the Levitating Blades, and other characters and tropes that manipulate weaponry in extraordinary, supernatural, or magical ways. If you ever wanted to be Noctis from FFXV, a Sage from FFXIV, Irelia from League of Legends, Gilgamesh and Archer from the FATE series, or Tenten from Naruto, then this is the class for you._


_The armiger, scion of their bonded arsenal.
(Original Art Credit: Sword Summoner for Heroes of Camelot, published by Level Eight and owned by GAEAMOBILE CO., Artist Unknown; edited)_

The wealthy weapon collector raises his eyebrow at the oncoming highwaymen. They assumed he was unarmed, and while the collector had no weapon physically on him, the highwaymen were mistaken in thinking he was without them. As golden weapons begin to shoot out from golden portals, the collector relaxes into the seat of his carriage, comfortable knowing that the bandits would soon be dealt with.

The charming dancer pleases the audience with her impressive ax juggling, but the audience is completely beguiled when the glowing axes suddenly disappear into thin air. That is, except for the dancers quarry in the front row, who suddenly feels a blade in his torso. Bounties paid more than show business anyways.

The elven commander was a legend among their troops. They were known for having lost both hands in battle, yes, but they were even more well-known for being able to control their vast collection of weapons with subtle movements of their body. The saying went that so long as their commander could move their eyes, the army would remain undefeated.

Armigers are manipulators of weapons in a way that no one else is. Able to control weapons via the connections they create with their arsenals, Armigers arent just defined by their unique power or by their incredible presence, but by their bonds.

*You can find the class on Google Docs at the following URL:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing*

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## Blurhy

Thanks to feedback so far, we've made some adjustments and are happy to present The Vanguard [v1.1] at the same link provided in the OP. We would love additional feedback on the newest iteration! :)

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## JNAProductions

*Basics*
Okay, d8 hit die.
Medium Armor+Shields.
All weapons.
Three skills is a little more than normal, but I like making more skilled classes too.

*Bonded Weaponry*
Basic details. Slightly better than an Eldritch Knight's version, but that's not a big deal.

*Vanguard's Armory*
Nice little bonus.

*Weapon Manipulation*
Relying on _Sword Burst_ is a bit iffy, since it's from a non-core book. I'd make a new cantrip that does what you want.
The ability to add a cantrip as a Bonus Action or even Reaction, though, is kinda really good. It's not the best cantrip, true, but still.

*Grand Strike*
Mediocre. I'd increase the range a bit.

*Links*
Looks pretty much fine.

*ASIs*
Normal levels, no big deal.

*Extra Attack*
Normal level, no big deal.

*Greater Bonds*
I'd honestly just make Bonded Weapons count as magical permanently, at this point. Maybe push it back one level for that, to match Monks, but yeah.

*Greater Weapon Manipulation*
Barrage and Cloud are fine.
Guardians might be a lil' much-it's a stellar spell, and you get it twice per short rest at the next level.

*Strategic Commander*
Feels out of place. It's cool! But out of place.

*Grand Strike Improvement*
I wouldn't bother specifying a 19 isn't an auto-hit. For two reasons: one, a 19 will almost always hit anyway; and two, even if it wouldn't, giving a 10% hit chance instead of 5% on one attack is NOT a big deal.

*Dauntless*
Given that this is a Charisma-focused class... This feels a bit much. Next level, when you get your second ASI, you can easily have a 20 in Charisma. Meaning that you get 13 Links per short rest, instead of 8. That's pretty significant.

*Exalted Defense*
Cool.

*Superior Bonds*
Kinda ribbony, unless you get a lot of cool magic weapons.

*Superior Weapon Manipulation*
At this level, you have 18 Links per short rest. This increases to 25 at level 15. That's enough for three 5th level casts of _Animate Objects_ per rest-five at level 15. Or three _Blade Barriers_.
That's a LOT of casting power.

*Manifest Armory*
Feels like a ribbon.

*Sovereign Influence*
Ability checks and skill checks are the same thing. I'd limit it to JUST ability checks-I wouldn't let it work on saves.

*Glorious Maelstrom*
This feels a little over the top. That's 165 damage on a failed save, and you can do this twice per rest, though only once per fight.

*Lord Of Their Arsenal*
Fine.


*Covenant*
The abilities are fine, save for the capstone. But the fact that you get as many slots (even if they're lower level) as a Warlock, plus your links, feels pretty nuts.
The capstone is an issue because of Sovereign Influence. DC 20 Charisma save means you need a +10 modifier to autopass... And you've got +6 from Proficiency. If you have an 18 Charisma, and as a Charisma class, you'll probably have 20, you autopass. Also, make the "Avoid death" require a reaction! As written, you'd only ever spend one link unless you think there's instagib stuff going around. Even if you roll a 1, an enemy would have to deal 148 damage in a single strike to kill you outright, assuming only 16 Con.

*Glory*
Crown of Life, who's bonuses does it use? Yours? You need to specify.
Fealty is way too good.
Seize Destiny should specify how it interacts with (dis)advantage.
Upgraded Life is nutso-that's +15 to +20 healing each time they heal. A 1st level _Healing Word_ now picks them up by a ridiculous amount.
Upgraded Fealty is also nuts.
Providence's _Aura_ is fine, but the rest is NOT. Since you don't need components and recover on a short rest, that makes _Feast_ and _Hallow_ free. You can cast them every day, no cost.
King of Kings is just insane. The Life one, for instance, heals 52 HP each turn, as written.

*Guile*
Empowered Improvisation should specify when it resets. As written, it works once per creature... Ever.
Heckle should specify how it interacts with (dis)advantage.
Greater Empowered-is it +2 to attack, +1d4+1 damage? Or +2 to attack, +1d4 damage?
Plot Armor is crazy good for how cheap it is.
There Can Be Only One is a save or lose. Similar to Quivering Palm... Only it takes a reaction instead of two actions and can be done three times per short rest (though not more than twice in one encounter).

*Mystery* 
_Wrathful Smite_ is REALLY good. Allowing it up to 30 times per short rest is too much.
_Dark Star_ is not from a core book-so don't use it. I literally do not own the book that it's from, so I can't even critique this.

*Symmetry*
Life Transfer is too good for how spammable it is.
Especially once it gets buffed.
Overall, despite the balance issues, I think this subclass is pretty damn cool.

*Wanderlust*
The ability to reuse an Arrow Of Slaying is crazy good... If that's available. I'd recommend AGAINST letting you use special ammo.


*Overall*
It's cool... But it's not super well-balanced. The sheer amount of damaging spells you can put out with the base class alone is strong, and then the subclasses are all quite potent.

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## Blurhy

Thank you so much for giving such a thorough response, and I sincerely appreciate it so much! You're also one of the few people to take a thorough look at the subclasses, and for that, I can't thank you enough.

We have taken note of your feedback, and are beginning to make adjustments. We know the class was overpowered because we tended to err on the side of being too strong when balancing the class in its original iteration since it's always easier to delete a feature than come up with one. So, with our "It's easier to nerf than boost" philosophy, we expected it to be overpowered. Of course, we didn't want it to be stupid strong and did try to minimize it. But we're not too surprised with your feedback so far.

For the sake of clarity (and to maybe get your thoughts), I'm responding to some of your suggestions and feedbacks.

Also, links only recover on a long rest and not short, unlike the Monk's Ki feature. If you say the original V1.0 of the class ii was short or long rest, but in v1.1 it was already scaled back. That could affect how you perceive some of the abilities.




> *Weapon Manipulation*
> Relying on _Sword Burst_ is a bit iffy, since it's from a non-core book. I'd make a new cantrip that does what you want.
> The ability to add a cantrip as a Bonus Action or even Reaction, though, is kinda really good. It's not the best cantrip, true, but still.


We added a sidebar with an alternate feature that's basically Sword Burst. It's a little different, but now you don't need TCoE.




> *Grand Strike*
> Mediocre. I'd increase the range a bit.


We agree and increased the range ever so mildly. The original feature had a range of thrown (20/60) as most thrown weapons, but considering you can use two-handed weapons with this feature, many people wrote back to us saying they believed it was overtuned. We may have overcorrected.

The range is now thrown (15/30) instead of thrown (15/20), and Distant Strike improves it to thrown (30/45) - basically, it adds 15 feet to each increment. We think this might be a good middle ground for now.




> *Greater Bonds*
> I'd honestly just make Bonded Weapons count as magical permanently, at this point. Maybe push it back one level for that, to match Monks, but yeah.


We had a few people voice hesitation about someone able to make all their bonded weapons magical, since magical B/P/S is among the strongest types of damage when it comes to overcoming resistance or immunities. So, we're doing a bit of a middle ground. At this level, the feature now lasts 1 hour and it keeps it's cost reduction. But, it still takes a bonus action. We think this might be a good compromise between an optimized high-level character having 13+ magical weapons and not having enough power at all.




> *Greater Weapon Manipulation*
> Barrage and Cloud are fine.
> Guardians might be a lil' much-it's a stellar spell, and you get it twice per short rest at the next level.


We've gotten a few other people say that there's perhaps a bit too many spell-like features in the base chassis anyways, so we've just removed the Guardians feature. Two birds one stone, hopefully.




> *Strategic Commander*
> Feels out of place. It's cool! But out of place.


This feature was a holdover from one of the earliest iterations of the class, when it was just a private thing between my friend and I are our table. We also love the novelty of the ability and have reflavored it to hopefully align with what is now the Vanguard's thematic design and flavor.




> *Grand Strike Improvement*
> I wouldn't bother specifying a 19 isn't an auto-hit. For two reasons: one, a 19 will almost always hit anyway; and two, even if it wouldn't, giving a 10% hit chance instead of 5% on one attack is NOT a big deal.


The language has been simplified! :)




> *Dauntless*
> Given that this is a Charisma-focused class... This feels a bit much. Next level, when you get your second ASI, you can easily have a 20 in Charisma. Meaning that you get 13 Links per short rest, instead of 8. That's pretty significant.


Dauntless no longer gets increased uses. Just one per long rest. And, it's explicitly clarified that you can't use the feature to exceed your max links. We think these simple fixes should help with the overall balance of a lot of link features.




> *Superior Bonds*
> Kinda ribbony, unless you get a lot of cool magic weapons.
> 
> ...
> 
> *Manifest Armory*
> Feels like a ribbon.


These two features definitely have more flavor than the pure crunch preferred for strategic, RAW, combat-centric characters. But, in the right hands, some of them could be immensely powerful. For example, with Manifest Armory, they basically become a living bag of holding, for instance (with limitations, of course). Considering the class is plenty satiated with combat options, we think having these couple ones be more roleplaying-centric is a-okay.

We appreciate the feedback, though.




> *Superior Weapon Manipulation*
> At this level, you have 18 Links per short rest. This increases to 25 at level 15. That's enough for three 5th level casts of _Animate Objects_ per rest-five at level 15. Or three _Blade Barriers_.
> That's a LOT of casting power.


With the reduction in the Dauntless feature, this is less of an issue. The level 13 power is unaffected, but we don't think it's the end of the world there. The power spike at level 15+ is tremendously cut down with the nerf to Dauntless.




> *Sovereign Influence*
> Ability checks and skill checks are the same thing. I'd limit it to JUST ability checks-I wouldn't let it work on saves.


The language has been simplified, and we agree that the class perhaps has enough defensive options anyways. They need to have some risk. Thanks for such a keen eye!




> *Glorious Maelstrom*
> This feels a little over the top. That's 165 damage on a failed save, and you can do this twice per rest, though only once per fight.


We increased the cost to 14 links. Now, even with the Dauntless feature refresh, they can only cast it once per long rest. Considering it's basically a reskinned meteor swarm (9th level spell), we think this is a good fix for now.



Onto the subclasses!




> *Covenant*
> The abilities are fine, save for the capstone. But the fact that you get as many slots (even if they're lower level) as a Warlock, plus your links, feels pretty nuts.
> The capstone is an issue because of Sovereign Influence. DC 20 Charisma save means you need a +10 modifier to autopass... And you've got +6 from Proficiency. If you have an 18 Charisma, and as a Charisma class, you'll probably have 20, you autopass. Also, make the "Avoid death" require a reaction! As written, you'd only ever spend one link unless you think there's instagib stuff going around. Even if you roll a 1, an enemy would have to deal 148 damage in a single strike to kill you outright, assuming only 16 Con.


The Warlock table is a copy and paste from the closest thing we could find in 5e Canon - the Blood Hunter's Profane Soul subclass. We can tune the numbers, but that's the rationale behind them.

Regarding the capstone, since Sovereign Influence no longer applies to saving throws, we only scaled it back the tiniest bit. The DC is now 25. At that level, there's plenty of resurrection magic anyways. We just wanted something a little more.




> *Glory*
> Crown of Life, who's bonuses does it use? Yours? You need to specify.
> Fealty is way too good.
> Seize Destiny should specify how it interacts with (dis)advantage.
> Upgraded Life is nutso-that's +15 to +20 healing each time they heal. A 1st level _Healing Word_ now picks them up by a ridiculous amount.
> Upgraded Fealty is also nuts.
> Providence's _Aura_ is fine, but the rest is NOT. Since you don't need components and recover on a short rest, that makes _Feast_ and _Hallow_ free. You can cast them every day, no cost.
> King of Kings is just insane. The Life one, for instance, heals 52 HP each turn, as written.


We retuned the nusto numbers, increased costs, and scaled back some of the abilities.




> *Guile*
> Empowered Improvisation should specify when it resets. As written, it works once per creature... Ever.
> Heckle should specify how it interacts with (dis)advantage.
> Greater Empowered-is it +2 to attack, +1d4+1 damage? Or +2 to attack, +1d4 damage?
> Plot Armor is crazy good for how cheap it is.
> There Can Be Only One is a save or lose. Similar to Quivering Palm... Only it takes a reaction instead of two actions and can be done three times per short rest (though not more than twice in one encounter).


That's correct. It only works once per creature ever because once you know that the guy can hit hard with seemingly innocuous objects, it's hard to forget.

Heckle was inspired by the 1st-level _Silvery Barbs_ spell from Strixhaven, which allows a reroll even if an advantage or disadvantage was already used. It basically forces a reroll on the final result. We changed the language to hopefully make it cearer and up'd the cost in the spirit of being prudent.

We changed the Empowered Improvisations features in the 1.1 update already. The damage bonus and attack bonus are separate and clarified!

Plot Armor is more-or-less a bless spell and a bane spell in one. If you have 2 level 1 spellcasters of any kind, you can basically do this already. But, we've up'd the cost by one (to 4 links) and reduced max duration to 1 Minute, since we think your feedback is valid.

There Can Be Only One is a reskinned Feeblemind. Stronger but more easily ended and shorter in duration overall. We up'd the cost, but that's the power level we're aiming for.




> *Mystery* 
> _Wrathful Smite_ is REALLY good. Allowing it up to 30 times per short rest is too much.
> _Dark Star_ is not from a core book-so don't use it. I literally do not own the book that it's from, so I can't even critique this.


We tinkered with the costs a bit and took a similar approach that we did for Sword Burst. An alternative (and similar) feature is now in a sidebar.




> *Symmetry*
> Life Transfer is too good for how spammable it is.
> Especially once it gets buffed.
> Overall, despite the balance issues, I think this subclass is pretty damn cool.


It's also my friend's (the other guy) favorite subclass. He currently has a Symmetry Vanguard at the table. We'll tinker with costs a bit to find a better balancing point.




> *Wanderlust*
> The ability to reuse an Arrow Of Slaying is crazy good... If that's available. I'd recommend AGAINST letting you use special ammo.


This may be bad language on our end. Arrow of Slaying in its own description says that it becomes a normal arrow after use, and we never intended anything else. We'll clarify that this stays the same even when it's bonded.



Again, we are incredibly grateful for your thoughtfulness and use your feedback justly!

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## JNAProductions

At work, but the biggest issue with Only One is the action economy.

Compare to, again, Quivering Palm-two action save or die, with a Con save (which most monsters are not bad at at worst).

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## Blurhy

Disregard! We made some more changes in the v1.5 update that I think fix the problems with the Guile Vanguard's capstone!

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## Blurhy

*Version 1.5 of the Vanguard is now LIVE!

Check it out at the OP!*

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## Blurhy

*As we prepare for v2.0 (which we've already started!), we're trying to gather some information regarding the name of the class.*

Just 3 questions (for anyone to answer):
Do you think Vanguard is a good name, in terms of being interesting and distinct?Does the name tend to communicate or represent what the class is really about?If you were to name the class, what would be some name ideas?
In full candor, we have a name option already that we might use if it becomes clear that Vanguard is perhaps not the best name for this class. But, who knows? You may suggest an even better name.

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## DeTess

Regarding your questions:

1: Yes, vanguard is a pretty evocative and distinct name.
2: No, not really. For a Vanguard I'm thinking some kin do fast and mobile frontline melee mundane fighter, the first in the fight kind of deal. This class doesn't really want to be frontline because of the smallish hit-dice, but more like second rank short/mid-range kinda deal, and is quite magical
3: That's the difficult bit, I can't immediately think of something better that's also evocative. Something like 'Bladewalker' or 'Bladecaster' come to mind, or maybe 'Armiger' to reference the large armory you have access to.


Now, some general feedback. I recently shared this class with my DM both as something I thought was really cool and something I might eventually want to multiclass into with my current character, but there isn't really any mention of multiclassing for the character. Presumably it will require a charisma and dexterity of 13, and will give martial weapon proficiency if you didn't already have that, but it's not clear what other proficiencies you might gain (such as armor or an additional skill).

The other comment I have at this point is regarding the big 14-link capstone abilities. though I think they're really evocative and cool, their 1/long rest big splash nature will be a bit difficult to play around as both a player and a DM. As a DM they could potentially face an 'I-win' button for one encounter per day (granted, in that regards not unlike 9th level spells), which is difficult to balance around, while for players its always difficult to judge when to use a big ability like that, because maybe something even scarier is right around the next corner. They also consume a lot of Links, which you'd need to keep reserved, foregoing using other abilities. What I'd recommend here is some mix of toning them down but reducing the cost and/or making them them x/long rest abilities instead of using Links.

Overall I think this class looks really cool and evocative, and I hope I'll get the chance to play it someday.

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## Blurhy

Thanks for the excellent feedback! Hope you enjoy your time playing the class!

Regarding your feedback, we love the name Armiger, especially since the word by definition can also connotate heraldry/relational connections which works incredibly well with the whole bond idea. This is high on the list of what we might end up renaming the class to and, if we do, know that you are the one to thank for that!

In regards to multiclassing, we actually had already noticed that we forgot to specify that, so v2.0 already has that information. But, for the sake of convenience and as thanks to you, here's what the multiclassing information is:

*Multiclassing.* You must have a Charisma score of 13 or higher and a Dexterity score of 13 or higher in order to multiclass in or out of this class. When you multiclass into the Armiger, you gain proficiency in light armor, medium armor, shields, simple weapons, and martial weapons.
*Alternative Multiclassing.* You must have a Charisma score of 15 or higher in order to multiclass in or out of this class. When you multiclass into the Armiger, you gain proficiency in light armor, medium armor, shields, simple weapons, and martial weapons.
I personally am a fan of the alternative, though it breaks the pattern set by WotC, because it encourages/better allows for more unique builds such as a Barbarian/Vanguard or Str-based Fighter/Vanguard.

Finally, in regards to the capstone ability, we actually did a whole rehaul of the way links work for link features that exceed the power of a 5th level spell, so you'll see our solution to that problem in v2.0 which should be out in the next day or so!

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## Blurhy

Happy to announce that v2.0 is up and live with a brand new name, 2 new subclasses, and a lot of feature overhaul!

*You can find v2.0 at the same Google Doc link!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing*

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## Blurhy

> or maybe 'Armiger' to reference the large armory you have access to.


Also, look what name we chose!  :Biggrin:  Thanks for the original suggestion!

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## DeTess

I'm happy my suggestion was of some use to you!

I haven't had the time to go over everything in too much detail yet, but there us something that stood out to me. If I understood it correctly most damaging links deal non-magical b/p/s damage, is that correct? If so, it might be worth taking a look at that, as resistance to some or all of that becomes fairly common at higher levels. Maybe have the class feature that makes your weapon attacks magical extend to links?

I like the ability to shield allies the vanguard gets. It reminds me if an awesome scene from Rythm of War where a character uses their magical armor to protect an entire platoon of soldiers by sharing the single suit around to deflect attacks as they happened.

The second part of the vanguard's 15th level feature probably needs some clarification. I assume the result of the roll is the amount of pairs of allies allowed to swap? Otherwise a result of a 1 is also a dud. 

I'll take some time later to go through it all in more detail.

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## Blurhy

> I haven't had the time to go over everything in too much detail yet, but there us something that stood out to me. If I understood it correctly most damaging links deal non-magical b/p/s damage, is that correct? If so, it might be worth taking a look at that, as resistance to some or all of that becomes fairly common at higher levels. Maybe have the class feature that makes your weapon attacks magical extend to links?


This is something we've noticed too, but considering there are plenty of high-level spells that deal nonmagical b/p/s (like blade barrier, insect plague, or wall of thorns), we figured it'd be safer to err on the side of not making them overcome resistance. If the features do end up wanting and falling short of peers at later levels, then the easiest fix would perhaps be to introduce a feature in the base chassis that allows nonmagical b/p/s damage from a link feature to count as magical. If the damage only falls short by a little or is uniformly weak across levels 1-20, then the better solution there might just be to up the damage dice a bit. This is something only more playtesting from more people will reveal to us.




> The second part of the vanguard's 15th level feature probably needs some clarification. I assume the result of the roll is the amount of pairs of allies allowed to swap? Otherwise a roll of a 1 is also a dud.


This was an easy fix in the language, so we cleared that up. Your intuition was correct. The result equals the number of pairs of swaps.

Thanks for being a part in making this class great! :)

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## Ilerien

Covenant Magic - Spell Slots. _Toll the dead_ is a cantrip, you can't use it as an example there. Also, spell slots by level from the subclass table don't map to warlock pact magic slots progression which raises the question how many spell slots would have a member of this subclass multiclassed with warlock. I suggest looking at the Profane Soul subclass for Matt Mercer's Blood Hunter class and maybe making the Covenant's spell slot progression (their level and count) 1/2 or 2/3 of warlock's progression instead of 1/3.

I'm not sold on once per rest features being called "Link abilities", all while they cost zero links. They essentially have no relation to the link pool and expend their own resources. The only weak link (pun intended) might be the Scarred's feature that grants advantage on concentration saves, but I was too lazy to check if any of these per rest features even require concentration.

The table for Crowning should say Crowning, not Glorious. The same goes for the table for Oblivion and Outrider. Also, Basic Telekinesis of Scarred if called Minor Telekinesis later in the feature's description.

The Scarred's Telekinetic Hold requires a Constitution save. Why not a Strength save? The same question goes for Crush.
Power in Pain leaves bounded accuracy in shambles. Thankfully, it's expensive and short-lived. But still, this is not a good thing.

Is it intentional that Vanguard's Follow Up the Attack expends your reaction, but doesn't expend the target creature's reaction? Similar abilities generally work the other way around, and this one is already powerful because it's allows to make multiple attacks. Similarly, Move it! looks like it should expend the target's reaction as well.

In general, it isn't an easy task to create a conclusive base class with a strong theme that isn't either esoteric as heck (as most of those created for base class contests) or infringing on some other one's purview. You've done it with Armiger, so hats off to you. :)

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## DeTess

> Power in Pain leaves bounded accuracy in shambles. Thankfully, it's expensive and short-lived. But still, this is not a good thing.


An alternative could be to use the stored damage on a damage roll instead, though that does make the ability a lot more narrow. Or maybe an alternative here would be for it to give advantage, when used for a d20 roll, and maybe going so far as to override any sources of disadvantage and/or add another dice (so best of 3 dice) depending on the amount of damage suffered?

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## Blurhy

*Always so appreciatve and thankful for thoughtful and thorough feedback. As my M.O., I'll respond to parts at a time!*




> Covenant Magic - Spell Slots. _Toll the dead_ is a cantrip, you can't use it as an example there. Also, spell slots by level from the subclass table don't map to warlock pact magic slots progression which raises the question how many spell slots would have a member of this subclass multiclassed with warlock. I suggest looking at the Profane Soul subclass for Matt Mercer's Blood Hunter class and maybe making the Covenant's spell slot progression (their level and count) 1/2 or 2/3 of warlock's progression instead of 1/3.


Fixed the _Toll the Dead_ bit. That was our bad! Thanks for pointing it out!

As for the spell progression, funny enough, we originally had the Profane Soul's table for the Covenant subclass, but on 3 separate occasions, people gave constructive feedback against it. Two occasions involved people saying they didn't see any discernable pattern to the progression, which made it feel wonky. As you might imagine, this feedback was from people who are strict on source book use and were completely unfamiliar with the Profane Soul. (Both parties knew of Blood Hunter but had never actually used it or become familiar with it, let alone its subclasses.)

On the other occasion, one person thought that having a functionally 1/2 martial/caster class also have close-to-Warlock-progression short rest spellcasting was far too much.

All three of these events happened around the time of v1.2/1.5, and it was during this time that we made up our own progression that was a bit more limiting and was hopefully more obvious.

All that said, we'll take another look and see if we can come to a better compromise.




> I'm not sold on once per rest features being called "Link abilities", all while they cost zero links. They essentially have no relation to the link pool and expend their own resources. The only weak link (pun intended) might be the Scarred's feature that grants advantage on concentration saves, but I was too lazy to check if any of these per rest features even require concentration.


We call them Link Features since they resolve as Link Features and use the Link Save DC. Similar to how Warlock's Mystic Arcanum are still considered warlock spells for the purposes of rules adjudication. Also, in earlier iterations, they did use to have actual link costs, but we experienced trouble with balance since if the cost was too high it completely ate up the Armiger's only resource, but if it was too low, it allowed them to use the equivalent of a 6+ spell far too many times.

We ended up taking inspiration from the variant Spell Point rules from the DMG which only allows 6+ spells to be cast once. And, to simplify resource management, we nixed their costs entirely. That said, as with the previous point, perhaps a compromise will be best. Still cap the features to once per rest but also give them a link cost of some kind. This is also closer to the solution offered by the variant Spell Point system.




> The table for Crowning should say Crowning, not Glorious. The same goes for the table for Oblivion and Outrider. Also, Basic Telekinesis of Scarred if called Minor Telekinesis later in the feature's description.


This was our fault for pushing the update of the class towards the ends of our days when our brains were fried. I've gone ahead and fixed all the name inconsistencies, I believe. But, if you catch any more, let me know!




> The Scarred's Telekinetic Hold requires a Constitution save. Why not a Strength save? The same question goes for Crush.


We borrowed the pattern from similar spells that already exist, such as _Levitate_, _Pulse Wave(EGW)_, _Magnify Gravity(EGW)_. There isn't a solid precedent from WotC on the default saving throw for telekinetic things. The Telekinetic Reprisal feature from the Gift of the Gem Dragon feat gives a Strength saving throw. _Telekinesis_ is a Strength check, not even a Strength save. But then, the aforementioned spells from the beginning of the paragraph all use Consitution saving throws.

WotC _does_ have a precedent for effects that move a creature by force or knock them prone, which uses Strength saving throws. This is why Kinetic Shove uses it. Other forms of forced movement do exist, however, that use Constitution (like the newer _Vortex Warp_ spell).

We opted for Consitution for 3 reasons (though we're not married to it, and if we're convinced, we can easily change it to Strength!).
Consitution saving throws have the slightest edge in quantity when it comes to how many other similar features/spells call for it for telekinetic/force-related effects.Constitution saving throws are generally more common/higher when it comes to creatures present in the various bestiaries (this has been reported by a number of people throughout the internet). So, in an effort to keep the features from skewing on the side of overpowered, we chose the more common/higher save - Constitution.To us, resisting being crushed alive is less so a matter of physical brawn and more so a matter of steely endurance. (This is a terrible analogy but: Darth Vader force-choked creatures of various kinds and sizes. The ones who lived weren't necessarily incredibly strong in terms of musculature or strength, but they tended to be incredibly hardy. Hence, Con saves.)



> Power in Pain leaves bounded accuracy in shambles. Thankfully, it's expensive and short-lived. But still, this is not a good thing.


Considering natural 20's are already auto-hits, no matter how high an AC is and how low the player's attack modifier is, then I don't think it leaves it in _shambles_. Well, at least not for attack rolls. Though, I do recognize how a large modifier could be intimidating/broken for other checks. Perhaps restricting it to just attack rolls or just attack rolls and saving throws. Get it out of being abused for skills and other ability checks. As I write this, I do like it, so I'll make that change now.




> Is it intentional that Vanguard's Follow Up the Attack expends your reaction, but doesn't expend the target creature's reaction? Similar abilities generally work the other way around, and this one is already powerful because it's allows to make multiple attacks. Similarly, Move it! looks like it should expend the target's reaction as well.


Yes, the focus of the Vanguard Inheritance is being a support-focused subclass that encourages team play and tactics - like a commander figure in an RTS game like XCOM or Tactics Ogre. The idea is the Vanguard uses the bond they have with their allies to empower them to do things they couldn't without the Vanguard's help, which we tried to allude to in their lore blurbs. It's not the ally doing it, but rather it's the Vanguard's power to call out greater feats from their allies that allow them to do such things.

We believe having it be on the Vanguard to use up their own action economy makes it much more of a strategic decision for the Vanguard, since it's up to them to decide which to use, when to use it, and to whom they use it. It also becomes a more difficult decision when you consider what a Vanguard might want to do themselves and having to choose between giving up one of their actions to do what they want or to aid an ally who might be better equipped for the task.

We did take inspiration from the Envoy class from Starfinder, which has some similar designs.

But, we're open to hear thoughts on this. If there's a better solution, then we know you can help us find it! :)




> n general, it isn't an easy task to create a conclusive base class with a strong theme that isn't either esoteric as heck (as most of those created for base class contests) or infringing on some other one's purview. You've done it with Armiger, so hats off to you. :)


*Again, thank you! It's been a labor of love, and I hope other people enjoy playing the class as much as we enjoyed making it (and continue to improve on it!).*

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## Blurhy

> An alternative could be to use the stored damage on a damage roll instead, though that does make the ability a lot more narrow. Or maybe an alternative here would be for it to give advantage, when used for a d20 roll, and maybe going so far as to override any sources of disadvantage and/or add another dice (so best of 3 dice) depending on the amount of damage suffered?


We didn't want the feature to be too wordy, but the advantage idea could be workable. 

Personally, I don't think adding to a damage roll is a good idea for the sake of balance. I'd rather have a player be able to hit an impossible AC and do normal damage than hit a normal AC and do ungodly damage. What's 50 damage to a tarrasque or Tiamat, after all? Besides, the instant-hit nature of critical successes on attack rolls already gives a sort of precedent for players being able to hit things that they really shouldn't.

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## Ilerien

*Spoiler: Power in Pain*
Show




> An alternative could be to use the stored damage on a damage roll instead, though that does make the ability a lot more narrow. Or maybe an alternative here would be for it to give advantage, when used for a d20 roll, and maybe going so far as to override any sources of disadvantage and/or add another dice (so best of 3 dice) depending on the amount of damage suffered?





> An alternative could be to use the stored damage on a damage roll instead, though that does make the ability a lot more narrow. Or maybe an alternative here would be for it to give advantage, when used for a d20 roll, and maybe going so far as to override any sources of disadvantage and/or add another dice (so best of 3 dice) depending on the amount of damage suffered?





> We didn't want the feature to be too wordy, but the advantage idea could be workable.
> 
> Personally, I don't think adding to a damage roll is a good idea for the sake of balance. I'd rather have a player be able to hit an impossible AC and do normal damage than hit a normal AC and do ungodly damage. What's 50 damage to a tarrasque or Tiamat, after all? Besides, the instant-hit nature of critical successes on attack rolls already gives a sort of precedent for players being able to hit things that they really shouldn't.


To be honest, I don't see a fix that both would conserve the intent behind the ability and wouldn't have too convoluted wording. It still irks me that this particular feature strays too much from 5e core design philosophy, but your analysis looks sound.
How about replacing the result of the roll entirely with the damage value stored, but only in case you fail the attack/saving throw?
*Spoiler: Covenant spell slot progression*
Show




> As for the spell progression, funny enough, we originally had the Profane Soul's table for the Covenant subclass, but on 3 separate occasions, people gave constructive feedback against it. Two occasions involved people saying they didn't see any discernable pattern to the progression, which made it feel wonky. As you might imagine, this feedback was from people who are strict on source book use and were completely unfamiliar with the Profane Soul. (Both parties knew of Blood Hunter but had never actually used it or become familiar with it, let alone its subclasses.)
> 
> On the other occasion, one person thought that having a functionally 1/2 martial/caster class also have close-to-Warlock-progression short rest spellcasting was far too much.
> 
> All three of these events happened around the time of v1.2/1.5, and it was during this time that we made up our own progression that was a bit more limiting and was hopefully more obvious.


The only flaw I see there is breaking a multiclass with warlock, as the established concept states spell slot progression comes from combined adjusted spellcaster (or, in this case, pact spellcaster) levels. I don't think 1/2 of warlock progression (with two 5th level spell slots at 18+ level) would be too much. Also, considering this subclass doubles down on resources recoverable on short rest, 3 warlock spell slots (of whatever level) might be a bit overpowered.
*Spoiler: Per rest link features*
Show




> We call them Link Features since they resolve as Link Features and use the Link Save DC. Similar to how Warlock's Mystic Arcanum are still considered warlock spells for the purposes of rules adjudication. Also, in earlier iterations, they did use to have actual link costs, but we experienced trouble with balance since if the cost was too high it completely ate up the Armiger's only resource, but if it was too low, it allowed them to use the equivalent of a 6+ spell far too many times.


True, I kinda missed it that this wording allows you to refer to DC as well. I'd still slap some tag on them to emphasize they're somewhat their own category of activated abilities. Would be kinda easier to avoid confusion. Can't think of a suitable example right now, though.

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## Blurhy

> To be honest, I don't see a fix that both would conserve the intent behind the ability and wouldn't have too convoluted wording. It still irks me that this particular feature strays too much from 5e core design philosophy, but your analysis looks sound.
> How about replacing the result of the roll entirely with the damage value stored, but only in case you fail the attack/saving throw?


We made a mild adjustment to the feature, based on your suggestion. It works a little simpler now, but we think it's a better compromise that isn't _so_ again 5e patterns.




> The only flaw I see there is breaking a multiclass with warlock, as the established concept states spell slot progression comes from combined adjusted spellcaster (or, in this case, pact spellcaster) levels. I don't think 1/2 of warlock progression (with two 5th level spell slots at 18+ level) would be too much. Also, considering this subclass doubles down on resources recoverable on short rest, 3 warlock spell slots (of whatever level) might be a bit overpowered


You made a good point - especially since WotC doesn't actually have canon rules adjudication for how Pact Magic multiclassing looks when combining different classes that offer Pact Magic... y'know, since in 1st Party content, they are no other classes/subclasses that give Pact Magic.

We adjusted the progression for the Covenant Armiger. Now, they nearly function as a sort of 1/2 warlock. Slot Level is the same exact progression, but everything else progresses much slower. Mathematically, it's easy to multiclass, too. You just add the Cantrips Known, Spells Known, and Spell Slots from the Warlock class and Covenant Armiger subclass.




> True, I kinda missed it that this wording allows you to refer to DC as well. I'd still slap some tag on them to emphasize they're somewhat their own category of activated abilities. Would be kinda easier to avoid confusion. Can't think of a suitable example right now, though.


While looking at the balance, we added a link cost to these abilities anyways while keeping their once-per-rest limitations. Now that they have a link cost again (as they once did), we don't think it's necessary to tag them. If enough people say they would prefer it though, we might consider doing it then. For now, it's fine.

Thanks for the feedback! Woohoo!

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