# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 >  No skill ceiling

## Beni-Kujaku

In the context of my Negative LA thread, I often wonder if reducing much the ECL of a monster below its number of RHD is really a problem, especially for equivalent levels above 5 (getting access to lv 5 prestige classes early is pretty obvious). 

I was wondering if you know what are some interesting prestige classes and/or feats that could be entered earlier or even much earlier if you had a higher skill rank maximum than ECL+3? I often hear about archmage, Sublime Chord and Apostle of Peace, but do you know of other good PrC in that case? Especially non-casting ones, or at least ones accessible with no previous casting. 

Additionally, would having BAB higher than one's ECL give access to other good PrC and feats? Bear Warrior and Frenzied Berserker come to mind, are there others, maybe at higher levels?

(note that epic feats and PrC cannot be attained until ECL 21 regardless of LA and other requirements, so they are out in this particular case)

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## MaxiDuRaritry

A number of casting and manifesting PrCs require 6 levels of other classes before you take them, such as the 3.5 constructor. Getting in a level early means you only need 5 levels, so you can grab that level 5 feat for psion (or wizard) or an ACF that trades away the feat and not have to take the 6th level, which doesn't really give anything you couldn't get from a full casting PrC anyway.

It's not much, but skipping that one level actually improves your ability to fit stuff in a build comfortably -- for example, adding a full 5 or 10 level PrC after finishing off your first PrC, instead of only 4 or 9 levels.

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## Telonius

Spoiilering for length. 

*Spoiler: Early Access*
Show

You could potentially get into Assassin at level 2. Requires Disguise 4, Hide 8, Move Silently 8, and you have to kill someone. Normally you'd be limited to starting it at level 6, but that's only 20 skill points (which you can get pretty easily as a Rogue). 

Contemplative at level 2 (if you're a Cleric and put 13 ranks in Know (Religion) at level 1).

Divine Oracle at level 2 (Requires Skill Focus in Know(Religion) and 8 ranks).

Divine Prankster after Cleric3 (Requires some cross-class skills).

Dragon Disciple at level 2. (Any non-prepared arcane caster at level 1).

Earth Dreamer at level 2 (Requires the Earth Sense feat and 15 skill points)

Earthshaker after Druid3 (Requires 18 skill points and must speak Terran)

Evangelist at level 2 (requires 29 skill points and a feat)

Exemplar at level 2 (requires 19 skill points and a feat) 

Fochlucan Lyrist after Bard1/Druid1/Rogue2 (requires 48 skill points)

Harper Agent at level 2 (requires 16 skill points)

Heartfire Fanner at level 2 (Dragon Magazine, but I love the class. Requires Human or a Flaw, and 20 skill points)

Heir of Siberys at level 2 (Requires 30 skill points and a feat)

Horizon Walker at level 2 (requires 15 skill points and a feat)

Martyred Champion of Ilmater at level 2 (requires human or a Flaw and 13 skill points)

Moonspeaker after Cleric or Druid 3 (requires 15 skill points)

Nightsong Infiltrator after Rogue2 (requires 15 skill points and a feat)

Ollam at level 2 (requires 25 skill points)

Outcast Champion at level 2 (requires 8 skill points)

Reforged at level 2 (requires 12 skill points)

Ruathar at level 2 (requires 9 skill points)

Scar Enforcer at level 2 (requires 16 skill points)

Seeker of the Song at level 2 (requires 26 skill points and a feat)

Sentinel of Bharrai at level 2 (requires human or a flaw and 24 skill points)

Shadow Dancer - Complicated. Needs 3 feats, so you could get it after level 1 as any race if you're allowed two flaws, or as a human with one flaw; or as a human Fighter with no flaws. You would need 23 skill points, though; so you might need more levels depending. Human Rogue would probably be the best entry. 

Spymaster at level 2 (requires 32 skill points and Skill Focus (Bluff))

Urban Soul at level 2 (requires 20 skill points)

Virtuoso at level 2 (requires 18 skill points, 1 arcane caster level)

Wild Mage at level 2 (requires 2 feats and 16 skill points)

Wild Plains Outrider after Druid 1 (requires animal companion large enough for you to ride, 9 skill points, 2 feats)

Wildrunner at level 2 (requires 23 skill points and the Endurance feat)

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## Inevitability

Level 2 Exemplar is extremely doable, as it only requires 19 skill points and a very accessible feat, so at level 6 you got access to Persuasive Performance and all the insanity that entails.

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## sreservoir

Ur-Priest/Divine Crusader/Trapsmith/Demonologist early entry?

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## loky1109

Dragon PrClasses from Draconomicon aren't technically Epic but have huge prereqs.

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## SangoProduction

> Ur-Priest/Divine Crusader/Trapsmith/Demonologist early entry?


I thought you wrote Dermatologist for some reason, and was wondering why I've never heard of that class before, and what possible abilities it could have.

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## MaxiDuRaritry

> I thought you wrote Dermatologist for some reason, and was wondering why I've never heard of that class before, and what possible abilities it could have.


Well, the acolyte of the skin is probably involved...

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## Beni-Kujaku

Thank you everyone!




> A number of casting and manifesting PrCs require 6 levels of other classes before you take them, such as the 3.5 constructor. Getting in a level early means you only need 5 levels, so you can grab that level 5 feat for psion (or wizard) or an ACF that trades away the feat and not have to take the 6th level, which doesn't really give anything you couldn't get from a full casting PrC anyway.
> 
> It's not much, but skipping that one level actually improves your ability to fit stuff in a build comfortably -- for example, adding a full 5 or 10 level PrC after finishing off your first PrC, instead of only 4 or 9 levels.


Yeah, no worse feeling than the point where you realize you are missing one level to do what your build intends to and the campaign ends/you're reaching 20 in an optimization comp.




> Spoiilering for length.


Wow, thank you, that's great! I'll look into this with utmost attention.




> Level 2 Exemplar is extremely doable, as it only requires 19 skill points and a very accessible feat, so at level 6 you got access to Persuasive Performance and all the insanity that entails.


"Oh no, I have a +30 racial bonus to Jump, looks like you're my willing servant now!"




> Ur-Priest/Divine Crusader/Trapsmith/Demonologist early entry?


I was more thinking about classes already requiring more than ECL 5, but thank you. Notably trapsmith really is something to watch out for.




> Dragon PrClasses from Draconomicon aren't technically Epic but have huge prereqs.


Not really the worst problem, the classes themselves are really bad, except if you abuse divine conversion, and even then it's mostly for joke builds, or elemental theurgy.




> I thought you wrote Dermatologist for some reason, and was wondering why I've never heard of that class before, and what possible abilities it could have.


"You know, not all of us Healers want to be generalists! Heck, I'd be a veterinarian if the market wasn't already crowded with druids!"

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